# Deer? Vandals? We shall see.



## AL from Georgia (Jul 14, 2014)

Bears?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I keep homing pigeons in my backyard and store their feed in a 5 gallon metal bucket with a lockable lid to deter critters.

At one point last summer, almost daily, I would find that bucket dragged into a new place in the yard each morning. I am talking being moved 50 yards from its usual location near the coop. When full, that bucket is pretty heavy, and I was pretty sure it was the local high school kids being mischievous. I put up a game camera and discovered it was a gang of 4 raccoons dragging that feed buck around the yard each night trying to get it open. Silly critters


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

We don't get a lot of bears here. Even if there were some, I'd expect them to be hibernating....it has been cold. Also, I've had bears get into my hives in NC and when they do the destruction leaves no doubt. These have been one at a time. A week or so apart. Simply turned over. 
Today, I also strapped all the hives with ratchet straps so that if they were pushed over, maybe they'd remain intact and that would give the bees a chance. 
My other concern is that now I have the camera up the problem will stop and I'll never know. A blessing and a curse, I suppose.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Shinbone, there were some hunters out near the yard yesterday when I checked and found another hive turned over. They suggested raccoons too. I didn't think a raccoon would be able to turn these over....but I could be surprised. Most are at least double deeps and probably still near a hundred pounds....but little surprises me anymore.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

beemandan said:


> My other concern is that now I have the camera up the problem will stop and I'll never know.


Or the *borrowed* camera will disappear and I'll know what but not who.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good luck!

Please post results.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Thanks OT. I will keep you posted.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

Bears don't just knock hives over. They knock them over and tear them apart. Deer you would likely see gouge marks from the antler tines. More likely vandals, especially if it's only one at a time. Push it and run fast. Hopefully you get it figured out. Good luck


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

beemandan said:


> Or the *borrowed* camera will disappear and I'll know what but not who.


If it becomes apparent that human(s) are behind the damage, there are some _innovative _prospective solutions offered in this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...light=gun+shoots+radio+active+ink#post1025124

One of the more _unusual_ ideas in that thread is a "_gun that shoots radioactive ink_" attached to a trip wire.  :lpf:



.... hey, at least I didn't suggest 5 gallon buckets of water in place of those ratchet straps ...


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I have seen deer rub against the corner of a tcover to scratch themselves. On occasion they will knock the cover off. I am still hopeful that this is what I'll find.
I've had vandals in a suburban beeyard before. It was pretty obvious what happened there.
I'm keeping an open mind.
No radioactive ink........


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

I also ratchet strap the hives to the hive stand or pallets. That might help also. If they are removed or cut you will know the culprit.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

MTN-Bees said:


> If they are removed or cut you will know the culprit.


Yep. I should've done the ratchet straps a couple of weeks ago when I began to get suspicious. It never crossed my mind until another beekeeper suggested it. It was like one of those 'DUH' moments.


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## Cub Creek Bees (Feb 16, 2015)

smells like a woodbooger to me.

The trail cam will pick him up, then you'll be rich!


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

In my experience - it is a raccoon. 

Raccoon can get big - a lot bigger than you would think. I have had them knock over hives - one at a time like that. I know it was a raccoon because the landowner actually watched it do it (He didn't think it could do it, so he was watching it out of amusement - and then, to his surprise, over went the hive).

Had one knock one hive into another - so the effect was two hives down. They don't destroy hives like bears and they don't do the kind of indiscriminate damage that you would expect from vandals.

You just get a knocked over hive - maybe a busted frame or two (I suspect they don't tolerate the bees well) and that is it.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

NDnewbeek said:


> In my experience - it is a raccoon.


The turned over hives are much as you've described. No overt damage except a few frames broken in the tumble. If it were a raccoon, why would they keep doing it? 
If it turns out to be a raccoon....that might be good. Much easier to deal with than local hooligans.


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

A raccoon is likely going for the brood. They are carnivores, but not quite as omnivorous as bears. I suppose they might also take the honey. A raccoon's belly fills up a lot more quickly than a bear's. Once an animal finds a reliable food source - they will keep returning to it until there is nothing left. Could be that it knocks over a hive, fills up on brood and honey and leaves - only to come back a few days or so later to fill up again.

Raccoons are also active all winter and generally work a territory in a big circle (like bears) - so the interval between 'visits' would fit that as well.

You could try something like these: http://www.fntpost.com/Categories/Trapping/Traps/Dog+Proof+****+Traps/
They won't catch dogs or anything else but a raccoon.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

Is your camera infra red or does it have a flash. Trail/game cameras are made with both. If it is humans they will destroy the cameras if they flash. Or if they are too close to the hive they will hear them going off while they are sneaking in. Hopefully that is not the case and hopefully they don't destroy or steal the camera to destroy the evidence.


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## dadandsonsbees (Jan 25, 2012)

I had about the same thing happen a few months back. 2 hives knocked over and no sings of bear. I righted them and fixed everything back and low and behold a couple of weeks later they were knocked over again. SOOO I righted and fixed everything placed an electric fence around them and nothing has disturbed them since (KNOCK ON WOOD). But like I said no tracks of any kind, human or animal.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

flyin-lowe said:


> Is your camera infra red or does it have a flash.


Both, I believe. It is an infra red camera....and from what I've read it uses an infrared flash. It is intended as a game camera, so I wouldn't think it would make any sound when it takes a pic. I'll know better when I go back to check it. 
It is a Wildgame #18. I've found them online for around $50. If it appears to work ok, I may order one so that I can return this one to its owner.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

I have a few game cameras. They are basically digital cameras in a case so they make the same noise as a digital camera. Plus the ones with a flash flash the same as a digital camera. Some people won't use the ones with a flash but I have hundreds of pictures of deer standing looking at the camera time after time. The flash and shutter click does not scare them off.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

flyin-lowe said:


> they make the same noise as a digital camera.


Unless it is a digital slr there shouldn't be an actual shutter. I always figured that the click was a software driven sound....to allow the user to know that the photo has been taken. In fact, on my cell phone camera, the sound is a musical tone. If so, I can't imagine any real purpose for the sound in a game camera. I guess I'll find out when I go back out to trade memory cards. My movement toward the camera ought to trigger a picture or two. I'll let you know.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

beemandan said:


> Unless it is a digital slr there shouldn't be an actual shutter. I always figured that the click was a software driven sound....to allow the user to know that the photo has been taken. In fact, on my cell phone camera, the sound is a musical tone. If so, I can't imagine any real purpose for the sound in a game camera. I guess I'll find out when I go back out to trade memory cards. My movement toward the camera ought to trigger a picture or two. I'll let you know.


It will and you will see the red light come on. Mine makes no noise, just a light when the sensor picks up movement.G


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Once be deer, twice be vandals.


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## AL from Georgia (Jul 14, 2014)

Now my curiosity is peaked too. I will anxiously await any updates.opcorn:


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

biggraham610 said:


> It will and you will see the red light come on


The owner's manual with this one states that the red light will come on if the camera is triggered during the first two minutes after the camera has been turned on. After that, there aren't supposed to be any indicators...except, I suppose, the flash. I'd think an IR flash would not be visible to a person. Anyway....I've formatted a memory card, so I will go out and exchange them today and see if anything's happened.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Once be deer, twice be vandals.


I'm still open to anything. I'd much rather it be wildlife....but I'll deal with whatever comes my way.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

Sounds like it is set up to be pretty stealth. Mine are several years old. One side of me thinks the manufacturer might be making them so they are less likely to be stolen. The other side of me thinks the more a person has his cameras stolen the more likely he would be to buy another so the manufacturers might like for them to be stolen, even though they would never tell you that.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Cub Creek Bees said:


> smells like a woodbooger to me.


This makes sense as this beeyard is only a couple of miles from Booger Hill.


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## GarfieldBeek (Jan 12, 2015)

From a hunter who has had a bunch of game cams- I would not recommend Wildgame Innovations. Everyone I had stopped working in a short time. They are less expensive than most others. I guess there is a reason. I've had pretty good luck with the Primos Blackout, relatively inexpensive, No visible flash at all. Some of the infra red flashes still produce a visible glow.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I traded the memory card. Only one pic on the one I removed. it was of me approaching the camera. All of the hives were intact. We shall see what comes.
I have no opinion about the quality of the Wildgame camera I borrowed. The only thing I can say is that the photo of me is sharp and clear.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I think it's gremlins
opcorn:




>Wildgame
wildgame innovation is a disposable camera that will quite at any time, it also corrupts your SD cards and make them unusable. Unfortunately I purchase many of these because of the price. The warrantee is almost worthless. You may get a month or if you lucky a year out of one.


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## georgiabees (Feb 2, 2010)

FlowerPlanter said:


> I think it's gremlins
> opcorn:
> 
> 
> ...


I think it's Mites:
Evil little Devils are blamed for everything else
They all run to one side at the same time and over goes the hive

Or it's "UGA" thinking Georgia Tech Yellow Jacket Hive in Bulldog country must go


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

georgiabees said:


> I think it's Mites:


Like I said....I'm keeping an open mind.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I did move the camera closer today. After exchanging the memory card, I checked to see how sensitive it was to movement. Where I originally put it was too far away to trigger when I walked along the hives. Maybe this is an issue with Wildgame's cameras....or maybe it's just the way game cameras work.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

They never trigger at the range they indicate. I hope you figure out what's causing the issue. Never understood the destruction of things other people have worked for... Bad parenting?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jwcarlson said:


> Never understood the destruction of things other people have worked for... Bad parenting?


I dunno. I did stuff when I was a kid that embarrasses me when I think about it today....at age 64. If it's a kid....and they were repentant....I'd give 'em some slack.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

beemandan said:


> If it's a kid....and they were repentant....I'd give 'em some slack.


Good on ya.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

beemandan said:


> I dunno. I did stuff when I was a kid that embarrasses me when I think about it today....at age 64. If it's a kid....and they were repentant....I'd give 'em some slack.


Goodness at least my kid thinks I was a saint at his age  I would, with great restraint, cut a kid slack if they truly understood they were being... kids.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

rwurster said:


> I would, with great restraint, cut a kid slack if they truly understood they were being... kids.


It wouldn't be a slam dunk, for sure. If it were kids and they'd been in trouble in the past I'd probably give them the full weight. Having said that, since it has happened several times, if it is a person, it wasn't just a lark but an intentional ongoing vandalism. I would also take that into account. 
I'm still hoping it is wildlife.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

if it's kids, turn it into an education they are probably testing their fears, I wacked a few hornets nests with a stick when I was a kid just because my friends didn't think I was brave enough. Talk to their parents and let them know that if the kid agrees to suit up and help you fix the problem you won't press charges.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Harley, this would be an approach I'd consider. Again....I'm hoping for deer or raccoons....or it stops.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

jwcarlson said:


> Never understood the destruction of things other people have worked for... Bad parenting?


I too am embarrassed to admit I did some of those things when I was a young teenager. Not out of being mean but being bored/impulsive and not understanding the consequences. I got caught a and the education was quick. Fortunately, those who I'd wronged held my feet to the fire in a respectable/reasonable manner. It was more than I deserved and I learned my lesson well.

Contriteness can go a long way.


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## bugmeister (Feb 26, 2013)

Maybe as cluster climbs in late winter, center of gravity gets higher and tipsy in wind? Rest of the box is light from giving up its honey source all winter and bingo- here comes a stiff wind? Tie it down if not already and maybe add a wind break. cuple of bales of hay on windward side. 

Love a good mystery but this happened to some friends last years and they were just too high off ground. 10 frame deeps or 8 mediums? Then there is always infa red, power fence, night stalking etc and all the fun stuff. Good luck. The fact they were not kicked around too much sees like a very gentle raccoon or very nice vandals. Haven't met any yet. good luck! B


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

bugmeister said:


> Maybe as cluster climbs in late winter, center of gravity gets higher and tipsy in wind? Rest of the box is light from giving up its honey source all winter and bingo- here comes a stiff wind?


When there's another dozen beeyards that haven't had a problem....and the first such series of tipovers in fifteen years, it seems to me that it isn't likely that these were my only top heavy hives. But...you may be right. Just an ugly coincidence that they all occurred in this one beeyard this year. As I said....I'm keeping an open mind.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Any pictures yet?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Nothing new. The only photos from the game camera are of me approaching to exchange memory cards.
This picture is a partial view of the yard taken from my cell phone. If you look closely at the tree on the left you can see the game camera. Behind me are another half dozen hives and then heavy overgrowth. 

I've thought a bit about this. When I checked the yard on Saturday and found another one of the hives overturned there were a handful of hunters nearby with a posse of beagles. They were in the process of loading up to leave. I do wonder if a pile of dogs ripping all over the property might have encouraged much of the wildlife to move.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Just my opinion, but if your camera is where I think it is; I'd consider moving it to some place higher or less noticeable. We have a large problem in our area of people taking other people's trail cams- the main reason I have never invested in them. Never had a need for them anyway because I find what I need to know by scouting weeks prior to the hunting season.

I can see setting a few up now though, especially on the new property for both game and miscreants. Regardless, if it disappears you can rule out critter causes, but I'd hate to see anyone lose their gear.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

it could have been the beagles.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I did have it better concealed David unfortunately it was too far to trigger dependably. So I put it nearby and as you pointed out, if it disappears I'll know what but still not who(m?), I'm sort of hoping that the addition of straps on the hives would distract them enough that they might miss the camera. 

I might add that in every case the hives were tipped over from back to front. There's not much space behind them, so I could imagine a deer brushing up against them.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Harley Craig said:


> it could have been the beagles.


It would have had to have been a team effort....those were little guys.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

D Coates said:


> I too am embarrassed to admit I did some of those things when I was a young teenager. Not out of being mean but being bored/impulsive and not understanding the consequences. I got caught a and the education was quick. Fortunately, those who I'd wronged held my feet to the fire in a respectable/reasonable manner. It was more than I deserved and I learned my lesson well.
> 
> Contriteness can go a long way.


Same here.  All I will say about my offense is that learning how to use an old hand tire pump all day long is a very memorable experience.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

It would be hard to miss in broad daylight.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

I see your point about the straps- almost have to loosen them before you could tip them, although it probably wouldn't deter a bear. In any event, I wish you luck. I'm real curious to find out the cause.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I've been a hunter for 100 years seems like. Deer can literally turn in thier own skin. Doubt very much that it was a deer. Most every deer in that area know exactly where your hives are. Tipped from the back indicates human intellegence since they know where the entrance/exit is. Heaven forbid they get stung.
Could also be bigfoot or aliens. lol


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

MR.Beeman: " Could also be bigfoot or aliens". lol Ya I thought about aliens too but didn't say anything. Besides, if my brother thought that beehives attracted extraterrestrials, I'd have to find a new plot- he has a deep fear of them. Haha.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

I doubt it was a deer. I have hives where deer are thick and never had a problem with them. But had a car last Friday night drive to the back of my hay field and knock over a hive stand with three hives on it [tire tracks right against the stand] and cut doughnuts in the field and came real close to another stand. 
I'm going to do the camera thing and am going to use two cameras one obvious and one hidden to catch the one being stolen.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sterling said:


> I'm going to do the camera thing and am going to use two cameras one obvious and one hidden to catch the one being stolen.


The idea of having two cameras, one obvious and one better concealed, crossed my mind. I may wish I had done it.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

It look's like the camera is too high, it might trigger a person's head but an animal might be too low to trigger it. About 1/2 that height should work.
And If it's *****, I bet they are visiting your apiary every other night, whether they are knocking over boxes or not.


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## devil dog (Jul 1, 2014)

I try to hang my cameras lower in the tree, you will lose fewer that way. Yours is currently about eye lever making it easier to spot. If I were doing what you are I would put it no more than 12 to 18" above ground level. That way you can put some limbs, small branches, grass etc. around the camera to make it less noticeable. Make sure not to cover the sensor. The clump of two or three trees at the base of the tree you currently have it in would work well or the tree that has the curved trunk about 5 or 10 feet to the left of the tree you currently have it in. Be sure to remove any tall grass or branches from directly in front of the camera. On a windy day their motion can trigger the camera. Think stealth
I would also leave something on the ground that would help to attract their attention. Even if it was just a white or yellow 5 gal bucket or some type of box or anything else that would naturally draw a persons eye away from the area where your camera is located.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Double post. sorry.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I'll look at moving it tomorrow. I'm trying to get the best overall look at the yard. I went out today and exchanged the memory card. Once again...the only pictures were of me.
I appreciate all the good advice.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Some game cameras have accessories that you can buy to tilt them at angles. Or you could use a block of wood, too.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

In my first cellphone camera picture, the first hive you see on the left, a single deep and green medium....the medium encloses a hivetop feeder. That was one of the first turned over. I hadn't visited the yard in weeks and it apparently had been exposed for a long time. It was originally a double deep with a good supply of honey. By the time I found it tipped over it had been thoroughly robbed out and had a softball sized cluster between two frames on the ground. I removed 10 now empty frames and put the rest into the single deep....not knowing if it was queenright or even survivable. I opened it yesterday....loaded with bees and brood. On my next visit.....possibly today....it'll get its old deep back.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>I opened it yesterday....loaded with bees and brood. On my next visit.....possibly today....it'll get its old deep back. 
Good to hear.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Nothing new. I went through the hives yesterday. I'd lost one that was turned over early on but the remaining four...and everybody else in the yard...are going great guns. Loads of drones and a few early swarm cells. A week ago I returned the second deep to one that was in bad shape after getting turned over a month ago. They are filling the second super with brood, pollen and honey. Spring has arrived.
The only pictures from the trail camera are of me. 
I'll leave it for another couple of weeks...but must move on.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Thanks for the update. I was wondering if you'd found anything.


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