# Oxalic Acid Dribbling (OAD) - Side Efects



## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I am a new beekeeper and going into the fall/winter.

I did oxalic acid dribbling in the morning yesterday about 10AM. I treat 2 hives about 50ml each.

Recipe:
50ml water
1/4 cup sugar
3.5 gr oxalic acid 99.6%

Then brought whole mix to 100ml by adding water.

This morning I checked the sticky board, saw about 20-30 mites on each board.

Now afternoon I checked and noticed something like robbing going on.

Please review the pictures and let me know what can be done.






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Thanks for all response


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## hankstump (Jul 30, 2014)

Could be just the afternoon cleansing flights. Lots of circling and bees in the air in the afternoon. It settles down after an hour or so. 

Cheers, Phil


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Well,

For now it's hard to say if it was a robbing swirling or what - but it totally looked like.

Now, 2 hours later, there is still some swirling, but some other workers are bringing poler in on their legs.

It was colder a week ago, so I changed the entrance reducer to 1" hole also to prevent any mice attack.

Again, as a new beekeeper, lots of things, which are not looking "right" are creating panic.

I want to make my bees happy and not kill them 

How about mite control? does 20-30 mite per hive in 24 hours look little or i's normal?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Normal or not depends on the free running mites on the bees now as oav or oad cannot
take out the cap mites. You have to keep on monitoring their mite level to knock them
out. Hopefully after this hatch. 
If there is a robbing scene then many bees will die fighting with each others. No dying bees is
just an orientation flight. And it is normal to be a bit excited when things went wrong or the
thought of it. You will learn after a few years so having a panic is normal I guess. But don't let
it gets to you. Beekeeping is a good hobby for you to enjoy and not losing many nights of sleep over
them.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

What prompted you to do an OAD now?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Were pairs of the bees engaged in fighting each other? If you don't see that, and if your hives are not weak, then it's unlikely to be robbing. (There is calm, silent type of robbing that happens when colonies are small and too weak to put up a fight.)

A one-inch wide hole won't keep any mice out. You need a mouse guard for that.

With OA vaporization it takes about 36-48 hours to see a large drop of mites. I have no clue about OAD, but I'd wait at least that long before drawing any conclusions.

Enjambres


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

We had huge clouds of bees out flying yesterday, you would have thought they were all leaving home. 
Yesterday was the first sun in quite a few days. 
In a few hours all was normal.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

hex0rz said:


> What prompted you to do an OAD now?


I believe it's time to treat bees since I never treat them this year and I am planning to treat them 2 more times in 7-9 days apart each treatment.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

missybee said:


> We had huge clouds of bees out flying yesterday, you would have thought they were all leaving home.
> Yesterday was the first sun in quite a few days.
> In a few hours all was normal.
> 
> View attachment 28305


The same story was here, in Timonium, but I had a dozen of dead bees infant of each hive. Maybe rain killed them, maybe something else (some people say that oxalic acid is a strong treatment and "weak" bees are dying).


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

Artur_M said:


> (some people say that oxalic acid is a strong treatment and "weak" bees are dying).


Some people say some very strange things


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Ah, weak bees dye anyway with or without any treatment.
Sorry for the weak bees. I need strong bees going into the winter without
any kind of treatment.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Planning to treat them 2 more times 7-9 days days apart is not a good idea. Your bees have a good chance of being dead in the spring. OAD is a one time application type of treatment.

Jean-Marc


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I know it is frustrating when asked a question without any answer.
So with what little mite knowledge I have take it with a grain of salt.
Yes, 24-30 mite drop is way too high. I still say 6 mites are consider high. Better if you
have none in there now. And OAD is for a one time application per season. I don't use
oad but have my own oav gadget to use if needed. I would if in your situation to use oav until
it is too late in the season to do it. Let them overwinter and then oav again in the early Spring time.
Check on the hive status to see how many bees are remaining. Combine if you have to for a tight
cluster size going into winter. In the mean time try to knock out as many mites as you can. And just hope
for the best outcome!


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

Artur_M said:


> I believe it's time to treat bees since I never treat them this year and I am planning to treat them 2 more times in 7-9 days apart each treatment.


Probably better to switch to OAV. 
If you need a gadget then the best price I have seen is from Bud Wilis
https://m.facebook.com/buds.bees


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## antonioh (Oct 15, 2014)

Side efects :

Bees tolerate badly more than two driblling treatments.

If done they *must* be separated 15 or ( better) 21 days

Higher mortality among adult bees than with tymol

Be *sure* you are using the precise dilution (check the CAS number or the oxalic you are using and its grade of purity, as there is a huge difference between dyhidrate and anhydous).

There is a small delay in the start in Spring but later on they will cope with the others 

Can be used at low temperatures ( Above 3 to 5 º *Celcius* )

If there is capped brood its effectiveness is very low ( 25~35% depending of the amount of capped brood)

So its only recomended in situations where queen suspend breeding ( climate conditions or caging of the queen for 25 days. The treatment is done after these 25 days ).

A.H.


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## antonioh (Oct 15, 2014)

[QUOTE
If done they must be separated 15 or ( better) 21 days[/QUOTE]

That means for the two treatments.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

antonioh said:


> Side efects :
> 
> Bees tolerate badly more than two driblling treatments.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but my experience with OAD is nothing like this. I treat once in the spring and once around December 1. On both occasions my after-testing shows 1-2 mites at most. Last year I also did a test on a group of badly infested hives (50+ per sample). I dribbled on August 1, 8, and 15. By that final dribble, the mite counts were below 5 mites per sample. I lost no queens, no brood, and had no discernible loss of workers or nurse bees or foragers. The full details are on my website.

HTH

Rusty


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## antonioh (Oct 15, 2014)

Well , on this side of the pond is as I said.

@ 85% mites are inside the brood . Oxalic only acts on foretic mites . Only in central Europe queens suspend breeding . In Portugal and Spain we go thru Winter with five or more breeding coombs. I never said nothing about losing queens or brood. Only aduld bees. 

We do not have africanised bees, which I believe are more tolerant to varroa. Here nobody can stand only with dribbling oxalic only twice a year without caging the queen.

Unless is looking for exterminate the bees in one or two years.

Here you have a link to a study made in University of Évora about driblling oxalic and varroa that confirms what I´ve said.. Sorry it´s in Portuguese...

http://www.dzoo.uevora.pt/index.php...co_guia_de_utilizacao_na_luta_contra_a_varroa


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

All beekeeping is local, that's for sure.  Please don't mind but I have a quote from someone more local to our side of the ocean:



> "In a study involving 60 colonies, I found that 3 applications of OA (trickled) at 7 day intervals in July did not result in measurable adult bee, brood or queen mortality." --Dr. Jamie Ellis, University of Florida


It was after reading this that last August I undertook my own little study as noted above. The December dribble produced very few mites and I have to conclude that the August dribble has had a really good long-term impact on mite reduction in my hives. I am about to do the spring dribble and hope my results are still as positive.

You should absolutely follow the more local advice for your location.



Rusty


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## antonioh (Oct 15, 2014)

It was not a mater of following the advices . It was a mater of beeing four years using only oxalic, tymol and formic and having losses of 30 %. Changed to amitraz and losses came down to... 0%.

And you are absolutly right ... all beekeeping is local...


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## antonioh (Oct 15, 2014)

> I am about to do the spring dribble and hope my results are still as positive.


 I hope so. Good luck.


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