# Anyone have Top Bar hives in the Bay Area?



## Labow (Mar 10, 2016)

Hi everyone,

I'm starting my first hive this month, and have decided to go with a Top Bar hive. I was wondering if anyone in the Bay Area has a top bar hive? I would love to connect and maybe you could answer some of my newbie questions. 

I'd also like to get some more experience before I get my package (either on a top bar or on a Langstroth, but I would prefer a top bar), and am wondering if someone would let me come help work their hives? I'm in San Francisco, and am willing to travel around the Bay Area.

Questions I have off the top of my head: 
1) screened bottom board or solid? I've read arguments for both, and was wondering what your experience is.
2) Would you put your entrance at the end of the hive, or in the middle (along the longer side)? Also have read both are correct.
3) More of a general question, are mites inevitable? It it just something that every beekeeper has to deal with?


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

Hiya,

I'm a bit of a newbie myself and not in the Bay area, alas. But, I missed last year's bee season due to a late snow storm, and spent a year reading about 100 books and can address two of your questions.

Check out Les Crowder's and Wyatt Magnum's books, both called "Top Bar Beekeeping: Subtitle" where "subtitle" is very long.  I found these to be the two most comprehensive books on TBHs. Les comes from a fairly natural approach while Wyatt's is almost a memoir of a life in beekeeping with a commercial bent. Both books were well worth the money.

Both authors experimented with screened bottom boards during the early years of Varroa, and said they may do minor good, but both said they stopped using them... they were more trouble than they were worth. Both authors select queens for Varroa resistance now and skip the screens. 

Wyatt advises end entrances... he has a commercial slant to his operation and it is easier to stack 30 hives in a meadow with end entrances than side. Les did an experiment where he gave the bees both: he said they consistently propolized the end entrances. Since I don't intend to have more than 3 hives soon, I went with side. (To be clear, Les's an my entrances are on the sides but all the way at one end of the hive... not in the middle of the side).

The most popular free plan on the internet calls for "middle of the side" entrances, but I have heard over a dozen experienced beekeepers state this can lead to starvation in winter if the cluster gets trapped at one end of the hive while the honey is at the other. Plenty of people use this design, however, and I'm sure good management can overcome this risk.

On 3, I'll let the more experienced answer, but speakers at bee meetings pretty much say "learn to live with mites and select good queens".


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## dpressley (May 12, 2014)

I'm in the Bay Area - down the peninsula. Up your way there are quite a few bee clubs (SF, Marin, Alameda)??? I've got one going, 3rd year now for the same adopted swarm. Got a few more to start up sometime, but life has intervened so far. I'm not an expert, but worked w another gal who has had 6 up and running for the same amount of time. We worked w Les directly about 2 years ago. PM me and I'll be honest about how much I might be able to help. Also, try the San Mateo guild - I think they have a few TBH folks.
Deb


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## Kathleen Bourn (Oct 31, 2014)

Also new ( going into 3rd year) and not in the Bay Area but here is my 2 cents on TBH.
As most do, I started with Langs but then started reading those darn books about all the other types of hives. I now have Langs, Warres and Top Bars.
Out of the three I have to say I like the Top Bars the best. I built mine with straight sides and a size that would fit Lang medium frames (in order to be able to share resources with the Langs if need be). I like them because I want natural comb, the bees seem to be calm every time I'm in them, I'm only taking one frame at a time out for inspection, and I can go into any part of the hive without lifting boxes or disturbing the other parts of the hive. You can also make them countertop height which is very comfortable to work.
The first one I built has three hole entrances about 7" from each end of the side (total length is 40"). This allows me to use it as a 2 colony hive, with follower board, or open both entrances for more traffic flow. I found they build the brood nest right by the entrance and then stores on either side of the nest.
My second Top Bar I built with end entrances (same medium lang size) but I haven't had bees in it long enough to tell how it works.
The difference on this one is that I had some free plexiglass so I made windows on both sides. So far they have never attached comb to the rough sawn wood of the first Top Bar but they love to attach to the plexiglass (same thing with the Warre). Not a big problem. I just make sure I take a bread or steak knife with me for inspections.
As far as the screened bottom goes, I do half and half. Half the bottom is screened and half solid. This also allows me to put dry feed and syrup jars with quail feeders in if needed. I'm in Georgia so I use the screen for ventilation more than for pest control.
The only disadvantages I've found are that they tend to be harder to move (depending on how you build them) but that's not really a problem for me. If you want to extract instead of crush and strain your honey it can be a challenge (once again not a problem for me).
I also recommend Les Crowder's and Wyatt Magnum's books.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

I also don't have any bees yet (and am in the process of building my hives out of pallet lumber), and I'm trying to go ultra cheap by using bait hives/swarm traps to catch colonies (so I may never get bees :lpf: ) I've read a number of books also. Wyatt Mangum does end entrances, Les Crowder's are on the side, but at the end. Phil Chandler has his in the middle. Christy Hemenway of Gold Star recommends that you have your openings in the middle of the side for ventilation -- however a big part of her management year is that in mid-season she manually shifts the whole brood chamber to one end so they can survive the winter (she's in Maine). Her system also uses two follower boards. Michael Bush actually uses top entnances by leaving a gap at the end of the top bars

This is my plan, mostly decided, but still subject to change:

Entrances at both ends, with one end blocked off until needed. 3/8" slots instead of holes w/ ~ same area as the Mangum's circular holes (I'm hoping the lack of landing board and 3/8" slots will discourage mice). I don't want to have to shift the brood chamber and in my climate (SE PA) I think I get enough winter to justify the entrance being on the end. Length will be 44" internally (That's 32 top bars with 1 3/8" width).


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## btt221 (Apr 7, 2016)

I in the east bay send me a private message with cell number and I can send you picks of my hive.

1) I have screened bottom board with sliding bottom boards below the screen. Currently, sliding boards are closed to keep in heat.
2) I have three entrances along the longer side: left, center, and right sides. Currently center is open--left and right are closed.
3) Still too new to know about mites; captured swarm is almost two-weeks old with comb being built above center entrance. Observation window has been helpful.


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## smworker1 (Oct 19, 2015)

I'm east of you Brentwood I have 3 TBH's and 4 langs as of this week, just rebuilt 2 more TBH's and painted them today.
All five of them have end entrances and solid bottoms.
I started with 1 Lang last May, meet an old neighbor that has been my mentor and is who gave me 1 TBH loaded with bees, and 1 Lang loaded with bees, after bringing them here to Brentwood in February they started building like crazy so we split the TBH and let the existing hive make a new queen.
The Lang was ready to swarm and we were able to split it into 3 hives with new virgin queens, all but 1 were laying as of last Thursday.
Without my mentor I don't know where I would be at this point in time
But this is the most rewarding hobby I've had.
We're planing on building the other 2 TBH's with splits maybe in May so that would give us 5 working.
I still new to this but if you want to see them some day let me know.
I'm trying to add pictures but....


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## Labow (Mar 10, 2016)

Thank you to everyone for all the responses. A lot of good information. Thank you for the recommendation on the books. I picked up Les' book, and have really been enjoying it. 

SMworker, have you had many mites in your hive? just wondering since the screen is supposed to help with that. 

It seems like there is no "right" way to do a lot of these things I'm asking about, and that it really depends on your climate, and what you're trying to do with your hive. 

One other question: Do you have to provide holes for ventilation? or do the bee's take care of that one their own?

Thanks again to everyone for their response. I also wanted to share a website that was recommended to me: scientificbeekeeping.com I'm just getting into it, but seems like a good resource.


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## smworker1 (Oct 19, 2015)

Yes we have mites, they are under control but I don't think they can ever be fully eliminated 2 of the langs have screened bottoms and didnt seem to make a difference, on of them was lost to mites and DWV last fall. I'm new to this and was too late on treatment.
There are no extra vent holes on any of the TBH's my mentor/friend says with the bottom opening on both ends and that none of the top bars fit air tight there should be enough ventilation, they are also partly shaded as I have them on the north side of my olive trees. The bees propolize most of the bars together and to where they set on the top edge of the box, so as i have read and been told the bees will seal up areas that they deem to much ventilation. Have I seem they fanning Yes when it was 92* and the hive were in full sun a few weeks ago, but we will see how it goes were I have them now.
I am thinking about maybe building my own TBH's with screened bottom in just the middle and then a sliding track to slide in sticky board or solid bottom to seal off in the winter.


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## Labow (Mar 10, 2016)

Thanks for the info. How long before you started seeing mites?

I kept reading pros and cons for screened vs solid bottom board, so what I ended up doing something similar. I put a screen in, and then also put on a bottom board. I attached the bottom board with threaded rods and wing nuts so that it can be removed to look for mites or to clean it.


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## smworker1 (Oct 19, 2015)

Labow said:


> Thanks for the info. How long before you started seeing mites?
> 
> I kept reading pros and cons for screened vs solid bottom board, so what I ended up doing something similar. I put a screen in, and then also put on a bottom board. I attached the bottom board with threaded rods and wing nuts so that it can be removed to look for mites or to clean it.


I noticed the mites late last year I blame myself for not doing a mite count, but right now all the hives are going like gang busters. Caught one in the middle of swarming on Saturday by the time I got my suit on and a box for them they had all moved up to the top side of the hive, getting ready to leave. As of Saturday evening the hive that swarmed had 1 hatched queen cell and 5 more that were still sealed, I need to go into it again this evening and maybe look at spliting it again.
Early spring my bees could be picking up mites from all to fields or maybe even lost bees from the pollinators coming to visit. Within 3mi to my property there were at least 40 pallets of 4 hives double high. So could we be catching extra mites from them? my friend thinks so.
I like the wing nutted on bottom board.


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## Labow (Mar 10, 2016)

Okay, that makes sense...they pick up the mites when they're out foraging. I'll have to keep an eye on them. thanks!


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