# Bayer buys Monsanto



## skyscraper (Aug 29, 2016)

...aka, cancer drug giant buys cancer causing giant...

hmmm...

just one man's opinion.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

skyscraper said:


> ...aka, cancer drug giant buys cancer causing giant...
> 
> hmmm...
> 
> just one man's opinion.


What?!?! Do you not know that Jerry Hayes moved his family from Florida to the Midwest to work for Monsanto for the good of our bees? That Monsanto is working for our bees? Look it up before you open your mouth! Ugh! Do you really think that that is these Company's' goal, to cause cancer? Did you ever smoke? How about exhaust from a car? I can go on and on. Just one woman's opinion.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

HAHAHA, Monsanto working for the bees!! That one gave me a good laugh


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Pondulinus said:


> HAHAHA, Monsanto working for the bees!! That one gave me a good laugh


it's true, maybe do some research.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

Monsanto wants to blame varroa for CCD so they can sell you mite killing pesticides. Neonics are harder to trace to CCD but their long term effects are potentially worse as they not only slowly destroy the bees, but also get into the honey we eat. Mites are cheap to diagnose as well. Pesticide poisoning diagnosis is more costly.

Sorry, Monsanto, but you're not doing anything for the bees until you stop making/selling your neonics.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I like these threads because they always show me who I shouldn't take seriously on the forum.

Just one man's opinion, of course.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Davidz: I know he is employed by monsanto but do you think he gets payed to find out which of their products are harmfull to the bees or link neonics to ccd? Monsanto works for money only and does not spend billions on lobbying and PR just because they want to. Their slogans "sustainable agricultural company" and " keeps the bees buzzing" reminds me of the old commie slogans, which were formulated to "dissprove" the obvious truth.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

Pondulinus said:


> Their slogans "sustainable agricultural company" and " keeps the bees buzzing" reminds me of the old commie slogans, which were formulated to "dissprove" the obvious truth.


Who remembers slogans like: "9 out of 10 doctors recommend [enter cigarette brand name here]"


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> I like these threads because they always show me who I shouldn't take seriously on the forum.
> 
> Just one man's opinion, of course.



Truth!


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>Monsanto working for the bees!! 

They are working on a super GM Bee that is round up ready. These bees will be disease and mite free. They will make soooo much more honey! Everyone will get them.

There will be so much honey on the market honey prices will soon plummet, beekeepers will need an ever increasingly amount of bees to turn a profit. The few that don't buy in won't be able to compete, when the GM genes mix with yours they will come take your bees and sue you for using their genes. World trade will block this honey which will further plummet honey prices.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Pondulinus said:


> Davidz: I know he is employed by monsanto but do you think he gets payed to find out which of their products are harmfull to the bees or link neonics to ccd? Monsanto works for money only and does not spend billions on lobbying and PR just because they want to. Their slogans "sustainable agricultural company" and " keeps the bees buzzing" reminds me of the old commie slogans, which were formulated to "dissprove" the obvious truth.
> 
> [/http://www.wired.com/2016/08/jerry-hayes-how-to-save-the-bees-monsanto/


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

grantsbees said:


> Monsanto wants to blame varroa for CCD so they can sell you mite killing pesticides. Neonics are harder to trace to CCD but their long term effects are potentially worse as they not only slowly destroy the bees, but also get into the honey we eat. Mites are cheap to diagnose as well. Pesticide poisoning diagnosis is more costly.
> 
> Sorry, Monsanto, but you're not doing anything for the bees until you stop making/selling your neonics.


Name one neonic Monsanto manufactures?


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Theese Roundup-ready bees will die every fall so you can buy new ones every spring and they are resistant to every pesticide so they will continue bringing in nectar even if it is full of neonics. This way the farmer can spray the hell out of those pests without killing bees, people get to eat honey containing pesticides that is good for them, beekeepers get to keep their bees and monsanto makes money - everybody wins!


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Bayer is the creator of the Neonecs
Bayer sells it, go to any Home Depot and just look.

round Up is a plant enzyme, that stops the plant from growing, it's not a bug poison.

I don't support them, just get your facts correct.
so much Neo hippie dreaddy Bull Sh..



grantsbees said:


> Monsanto wants to blame varroa for CCD so they can sell you mite killing pesticides. Neonics are harder to trace to CCD but their long term effects are potentially worse as they not only slowly destroy the bees, but also get into the honey we eat. Mites are cheap to diagnose as well. Pesticide poisoning diagnosis is more costly.
> 
> Sorry, Monsanto, but you're not doing anything for the bees until you stop making/selling your neonics.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Monsanto and me, cause I also work for money. I do not run a non profit like most of the folks who always point their fingers at everyone else.
Johno


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Oh, the hyperbole!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

When I worked there, the only GMO bees available were programmed to collect any and all Round Up ready pollen and spread it as far as they could...... Spreading the love!


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

Bayer will "Make Bees Great Again!"


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Organic, free-range, gluten free, cage free, sustainable, fair trade granola for everyone!


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

I can't even tell who is being serious and who is being sarcastic in this thread.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> Organic, free-range, gluten free, cage free, sustainable, fair trade granola for everyone!


lol
You forgot the original...Lite this Lite that Lite Lite Lite, the keyword of the 80's


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

grantsbees said:


> I can't even tell who is being serious and who is being sarcastic in this thread.


Aye, this a fun thread.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

grantsbees said:


> I can't even tell who is being serious and who is being sarcastic in this thread.


"Cause That's The Way We Liked It," said the angry old man. (Dana Carvey, Saturday Night Live) 

Alex


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Do any of you even know what Jerry Hayes does? What he is working on? Give it a rest. 

I have an old friend working on the same program. He doesn't want anyone to know after Jerry has had death threats to him and his family. Are you all kidding? These guys are doing good research to find a path to varroa control that might not be dumping chemicals into your hives. And you play the devil card?


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Do any of you even know what Jerry Hayes does? What he is working on? Give it a rest.
> 
> I have an old friend working on the same program. He doesn't want anyone to know after Jerry has had death threats to him and his family. Are you all kidding? These guys are doing good research to find a path to varroa control that might not be dumping chemicals into your hives. And you play the devil card?


Exactly! Recently i saw a story on him on some show -- i need to pay better attention -- and he truly wants the best for the bees. Just like th lumber companies want the best for the forests. STOP allowing the bias of the media sway your opinions and understand that sustainability is the key to capitalism.


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

Yep, like I said before, I am really looking foward to the results from this round of testing he is doing.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

grantsbees said:


> Monsanto wants to blame varroa for CCD so they can sell you mite killing pesticides. Neonics are harder to trace to CCD but their long term effects are potentially worse as they not only slowly destroy the bees, but also get into the honey we eat. Mites are cheap to diagnose as well. Pesticide poisoning diagnosis is more costly.
> 
> Sorry, Monsanto, but you're not doing anything for the bees until you stop making/selling your neonics.


This is really funny. The guy does not even know Monsanto does not make any neonics! But, he is still allowed to have an opinion on the internet.


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## woodyard (Apr 12, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Do any of you even know what Jerry Hayes does? What he is working on? Give it a rest.
> 
> I have an old friend working on the same program. He doesn't want anyone to know after Jerry has had death threats to him and his family. Are you all kidding? These guys are doing good research to find a path to varroa control that might not be dumping chemicals into your hives. And you play the devil card?


This!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> And you play the devil card?


Amazing isn't it?


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

I don't know. A 60 billion dollar acquisition. Wow. With the work already in progress at Monsanto coupled with Bayer's research facilities (https://www.beecare.bayer.com/home), I'm remaining optimistic that cutting-edge research will be the focus and honey bees (and beekeepers) will be beneficiaries. There is some fantastic close-up videography on their splash-page by the way. I didn't realize these labs were even in existence until just recently. Sometimes allies turn up in the strangest places.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

I have not seen enough evidence of the neonics. I am a analytical chemist and know that the neonics would should up in HPLC UV chromatography. Surely there is research out there that people have taken honey or wax and extracted it out to see levels of it in the hives that have been destroyed due to CCD or neonics? that is the idea right that the pesticide builds up in the hive? not sure how it gets there some have said that the pollen has the pesticide because it is systemic pesticide. I dont buy that. I might buy that the soybean and corn planters might allow some dust to transfer to spring flowers but spring rains would wash and dilute away. please further vectors and causation to neonics effecting bees would be welcome. 

also read they are not allowed in EU has CCD stopped there? I dont know????


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

It was before they got into bees, but Monsanto hasn't done themselves any favors with their lawsuits against farmers (or entire countries). They are also the posterchild for GMO food and not labeling GMO food. Bayer is mostly a big pharmaceutical company.....I'm pretty sure we all win with this merger.


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## Socrates (Jul 11, 2015)

> Bayer is the creator of the Neonecs
> Bayer sells it, go to any Home Depot and just look.
> 
> round Up is a plant enzyme, that stops the plant from growing, it's not a bug poison.
> ...


Both your comments bring up really good points that Monsanto isn't manufacturing neonics but they manufacture and sell roundup ready seeds with neonic coatings and that the use of there seeds has devastating effects due to neonic contamination.

The first part of this comment:


> Monsanto wants to blame varroa for CCD so they can sell you mite killing pesticides


 makes sense to me if you consider what roundup ready means. It's a GMO resistant to the herbicide glyphosate they then also manufacture and sell you the herbicide to use on your GM seeds. IF this is there business model then I don't think its that far fetched to propose that their bee research might bee to the effect of producing a GM bee resistant to a varroa treatment pesticide that they might also sell or better yet be able to patent.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Michael palmer: If you arent looking forward to more miticides or GMOs I would not gey my hopes up. I dont doubt that your friend or this Jerry hayes is in it for the right reasons but I highly doubt that companies like Monsanto or Bayer will release research they wont make money on as it can "harm" them in the long run. Sadly, research that only benefits the regular man is only carried out in neutral research groups like you find in colleges and universities.

DavidZ: maybe you should do some research.. The active substance in roundup is glyfosat, which is not an enzyme, and it does not only work on plants either. Also, as Socrates points out, monsanto do sell neonicotioid coated seeds. 

Jwcarlson: is it biodynamic granola?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

jwcarlson said:


> I like these threads because they always show me who I shouldn't take seriously on the forum.
> 
> Just one man's opinion, of course.


:thumbsup:


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

Pondulinus said:


> Sadly, research that only benefits the regular man is only carried out in neutral research groups like you find in colleges and universities.


 Actually, most technological advances that are of great benefit to mankind have come from military research and development. And the military's business is killing people. Like I said, allies are found in the strangest places.


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## skyscraper (Aug 29, 2016)

Michael Palmer said:


> Do any of you even know what Jerry Hayes does? What he is working on? Give it a rest.
> 
> I have an old friend working on the same program. He doesn't want anyone to know after Jerry has had death threats to him and his family. Are you all kidding? These guys are doing good research to find a path to varroa control that might not be dumping chemicals into your hives. And you play the devil card?


Mansanto is a much bigger company than just this Jerry guy.

Your bees are cross pollinating my neighbor's Mansanto "patented" hybrid crop with my non-Monsanto seed crop, sterilizing and ruining my crop. On top of that, Mansanto comes out, trespasses, steals a sample of my crop, goes and and tests it and finds their "patented" genetic code in it, and then sues me for my whole $5 million farm. 
I can't even sell my seed crop because it contains Monsanto's GMO code, and because their hybrid crop sterilized my seed the next guy couldn't grow it anyways. 

Do I have to list all the lawsuits that Mansanto has won? Do I have to name who our "wonderful" agriculture secretary/FDA head is and which company he came from? 

One good thing does not erase all the bad things. Don't get me started on Bayer, they already are both pesticides and cancer drug makers. Robin Cook couldn't write a better book.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SS Auck said:


> also read they are not allowed in EU has CCD stopped there? I dont know????


Their CCD never looked like ours supposedly, at least that's what I've read. And that areas with bans showed no improvement in colony loss.

And their hive count basically tracked the price of hive products. Honey price goes down... less people keep less colonies. Honey prices go up... more people keep more colonies.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

skyscraper said:


> Mansanto is a much bigger company than just this Jerry guy.
> 
> Your bees are cross pollinating my neighbor's Mansanto "patented" hybrid crop with my non-Monsanto seed crop, sterilizing and ruining my crop. On top of that, Mansanto comes out, trespasses, steals a sample of my crop, goes and and tests it and finds their "patented" genetic code in it, and then sues me for my whole $5 million farm.
> I can't even sell my seed crop because it contains Monsanto's GMO code, and because their hybrid crop sterilized my seed the next guy couldn't grow it anyways.
> ...


You might be benefited by taking a local college class in plant biology. GMO pollen will not sterilize your "seeds". They may or may not pass on the traits that is changed by genome manipulation.
Also more ammo for you tinfoil hat army. This is true unlike your statements. Monsanto has patented most of the genome for corn, soybeans, and canola. Hope you dont lose any sleep over that. But they paid for the sequencing and most of the discovery so the deserve to make some money on it. They did some great science there.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

ss Auck: no they did not do great science. They took already-made sequencing techniques and grinded. First one to the finish gets the prize.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

grantsbees said:


> Who remembers slogans like: "9 out of 10 doctors recommend [enter cigarette brand name here]"


I remember that. And eggs were bad for you and caused high cholesterol and fats were bad when the problem was sugar. 

BUT I can err on the cautious side and be mostly organic in my garden anyway


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

pondulinus
Yes they have a giant building with multiple floors with rooms full of PCR machine. with evil scientist that sequenced the genomes. I would say yes they used techniques that were formerly discovered but they mapped the genome of three of the largest crops in north america. Have actually found out what not all but a lot of the genes in the genome does. 
I think people that have no science background do not understand the monumental task and amount of money it takes to do this. It was good science.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

grantsbees said:


> Monsanto wants to blame varroa for CCD so they can sell you mite killing pesticides. Neonics are harder to trace to CCD but their long term effects are potentially worse as they not only slowly destroy the bees, but also get into the honey we eat. Mites are cheap to diagnose as well. Pesticide poisoning diagnosis is more costly.
> 
> Sorry, Monsanto, but you're not doing anything for the bees until you stop making/selling your neonics.


Monsanto does not make pesticides. Monsanto makes herbicides. Monsanto also designs GMO plants to be resistant to the herbicides they make.
Bayer makes pesticides and Neonics.
Just sayin'...


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

This is an entertaining thread! Well done. opcorn:


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## skyscraper (Aug 29, 2016)

Please explain how I'm supposed to be guaranteeing customers that my GMO free corn, soybeans, whatever, is really GMO free when your bees\my bees are facilitating the analogous prostitution via the neighbor's Monsanto crop?

I'm not 100% against Monsanto, I use round up myself around the house. I agree that patenting a product is a good business, and I'm all for profit. 

Monsanto is too "in" with government, has a checkered past like threatening termination seeds, saccharin, aspartame, etc.

If they can develop something to help with bees, great. Don't force me to use it somehow or pay for it if I don't want it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

skyscraper said:


> Monsanto is too "in" with government


I can certainly agree there.
They and pretty much every other major corporation. While it takes two to tango, the government needs to be fixed for the influences to go away.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

sky, you need to do some real reading on the matter. Monsanto cannot come sue you for adventitious presence unless you knowingly propagated it and reseeded it. Almost all the lawsuits Monsanto has pursued were justified and the truth always came out in the end, where the farmer/grower knowingly selected for the trait in saved seed and was replanting it. Also, do some research and see what Monsanto does with the winnings from these suits. 

Also to clarify for some of the other posts... Monsanto makes one herbicide, Round Up, that is it. The main business is seeds and traits, although I've heard they've stopped all research on any new biotech traits since most people are uneducated in the area of genetic modification and biotech is apparently satan incarnate. 

On the bee issue.... there will never be a GMO bee released, there's no research on the matter and I think the only people making GMO bees were in Germany last time I heard. Also, now that CRISPR technology is being used, this is the route that will be pursued if at all as it doesn't classify as GMO and therefore is the much more 'PC' and easier/cheaper regulatory route to take these days.


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## Dmlehman (May 30, 2015)

cervus said:


> Actually, most technological advances that are of great benefit to mankind have come from military research and development. And the military's business is killing people. Like I said, allies are found in the strangest places.


And NASA and NIH and NIEHS and the list goes on. Military is far from the only governmental organization to produce useful research. As universities and colleges, how could they possibly be influenced by accepting money from industry groups?


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## Dmlehman (May 30, 2015)

SS Auck said:


> You might be benefited by taking a local college class in plant biology. GMO pollen will not sterilize your "seeds". They may or may not pass on the traits that is changed by genome manipulation.
> Also more ammo for you tinfoil hat army. This is true unlike your statements. Monsanto has patented most of the genome for corn, soybeans, and canola. Hope you dont lose any sleep over that. But they paid for the sequencing and most of the discovery so the deserve to make some money on it. They did some great science there.


They don't deserve anything because they paid for sequencing. Sequencing isn't a discovery and past attempts to patent nothing but standard sequence have been soundly defeated by the courts. Maybe you should give a college course a try too. Then, maybe you can lose the dunce hat.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

Dmlehman said:


> They don't deserve anything because they paid for sequencing. Sequencing isn't a discovery and past attempts to patent nothing but standard sequence have been soundly defeated by the courts. Maybe you should give a college course a try too. Then, maybe you can lose the dunce hat.


Yes absolutely they deserve to patent any section they have discovered by sequencing and changed for beneficial reasons. I toured the monsanto facility with my plant biology class. But to claim that any of the edited genome sequences that are in Asgrow soybeans or Dekelb corn is making your non-gmo crops sterile is unintelligent. and if you think they weren't light years ahead of the other seed companies you are also wrong. They single-handedly changed the landscape of farming then you also know nothing. Even large farm operations that farm in the 50K to 100K acres a year had a heck of a time with weed control now it is way easier.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

justin said:


> It was before they got into bees, but Monsanto hasn't done themselves any favors with their lawsuits against farmers (or entire countries). They are also the posterchild for GMO food and not labeling GMO food. Bayer is mostly a big pharmaceutical company.....I'm pretty sure we all win with this merger.



Do you have a pertinent source that actually shows Monsanto's use of lawsuits has hurt bees?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

cervus said:


> Actually, most technological advances that are of great benefit to mankind have come from military research and development. And the military's business is killing people. Like I said, allies are found in the strangest places.


Strawman much?


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

Nabber86 said:


> Do you have a pertinent source that actually shows Monsanto's use of lawsuits has hurt bees?


I was saying they have not done much for their own public image, although they obviously do have some supporters. so far this thread has been big on emotion and small on logic. I would say both sides are giving them more credit than they deserve.


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## pinkpantherbeekeeper (Feb 10, 2016)

skyscraper said:


> Please explain how I'm supposed to be guaranteeing customers that my GMO free corn, soybeans, whatever, is really GMO free when your bees\my bees are facilitating the analogous prostitution via the neighbor's Monsanto crop?
> 
> I'm not 100% against Monsanto, I use round up myself around the house. I agree that patenting a product is a good business, and I'm all for profit.
> 
> ...


Are you an actual farmer? 

I say this because you are saying the bees are pollinating your corn... Huhhh... Might read up on how corn pollination actually works. Do bees work the tassels of the corn? Yes. But they sure as heck dont work the silks. Is it possible for bees to help transmit insignificant amounts of pollen by some accidentally falling off from the pollen baskets? Sure.

Typically you need several hundred yards to help prevent wind pollination between varieties of corn. If you are really producing non GMO seed corn on a large scale, clearly you need to have a larger set aside from your neighbors. I have seen purple/red "indian" corn in actual seed corn for Pioneer. It obviously gets separated out when they initially sort the seed corn. This pollination comes from a house that is near a field of seed corn. This is the reason most seed operations try to distance their seed corn from other fields of like crops. Might want to check into seed corn business models. 

And being sued for contamination from Monsanto? Give me a break. Unless you are knowingly propagating their seed you wont be sued. If you were using a corn with a Monsanto trait in it, replanting it or selling it, than you will be sued.


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## Tejones121 (Apr 28, 2015)

grantsbees said:


> Monsanto wants to blame varroa for CCD so they can sell you mite killing pesticides. Neonics are harder to trace to CCD but their long term effects are potentially worse as they not only slowly destroy the bees, but also get into the honey we eat. Mites are cheap to diagnose as well. Pesticide poisoning diagnosis is more costly.
> 
> Sorry, Monsanto, but you're not doing anything for the bees until you stop making/selling your neonics.


In my short time on this forum, mites levels are the first thing everyone asks posters who have issues, and usually the one thing everyone diagnoses as the root cause of any issues. It's not just Big AG companies.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Tejones121 said:


> In my short time on this forum, mites levels are the first thing everyone asks posters who have issues, and usually the one thing everyone diagnoses as the root cause of any issues. It's not just Big AG companies.


Correct. In my experience it's mites are the root of hive failures. However, many like to blame Big AG instead. It's easier to believe a large sinister force is behind hive failures vs. actually looking in the mirror and realizing it's the beekeeper who's ignoring or improperly treating for mites who's behind hive failures.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Perhaps if more posters had kept bees pre-varroa they would better understand....


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

There is a commonly held view that Bayer and Monsanto are corrupt organizations.
By extension, that must include their tens of thousands of employees. Who, one must therefore believe are all willing to trade the environment for a paycheck.
I can't imagine how they were able to successfully hire such a huge quantity of consistently unethical and dishonest people. Often our neighbors.
How can it be otherwise?


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## kevindsingleton (Jun 6, 2014)

justin said:


> It was before they got into bees, but Monsanto hasn't done themselves any favors with their lawsuits against farmers (or entire countries). They are also the posterchild for GMO food and not labeling GMO food. Bayer is mostly a big pharmaceutical company.....I'm pretty sure we all win with this merger.


Bayer is one of the largest seed producers in the world, and heavily invested in producing "safe" herbicides and pesticides. Buying Monsanto will give them access to Monsanto's research and patents to further improve their efforts. From what I can see, Bayer cares about bees. We have two hives in our little apiary on the Pittsburgh campus, and a larger facility in RTP.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

jim lyon said:


> Perhaps if more posters had kept bees pre-varroa they would better understand....


I kept bees pre-varroa. 
When I decided to keep bees again, I bought into the belief that bees could be kept off treatments. I listened to the TF side and treatment side. Both sides were very vociferous in the presentation of their belief that it was very difficult to discern the truth. I even argued for TF myself.
My own experience over the last three years has not met the level of what I would consider a success. Colonies were not thriving, I have to combine often and watch each one to see who needs intervention next. I agree mites are the biggest problem and to have colonies to thrive one needs to treat. Having said that, I don't begrudge the success some people are having and I applaud their efforts, because I know they are having to work hard for that success.
I believe it will take a large company with very deep pockets to solve the mite problem and to some people it will be another sign of the approaching apocalypse, but that's an argument for another time.

Alex


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

what apocalypse?
why wasn't I warned?
man I hate to bee left out of the good stuff.

apocalypse, smochkalypse
it ain't gonna happen


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## McBain (Aug 23, 2016)

Cloverdale said:


> What?!?! Do you not know that Jerry Hayes moved his family from Florida to the Midwest to work for Monsanto for the good of our bees? That Monsanto is working for our bees? Look it up before you open your mouth! Ugh! Do you really think that that is these Company's' goal, to cause cancer? Did you ever smoke? How about exhaust from a car? I can go on and on. Just one woman's opinion.


Monsanto/Bayer is not on the side of our bees regardless of what anyone told you. Think about this for one second: Monsanto is a large company which tries to earn money, as is the goal of any business. Now, it just so happens that Monsanto is a chemical company that has designed chemical food. All their main GMO varieties (Corn, Soybeans, Sugar Beets, Wheat) are all self pollinating. 

Think about how good it would be for Monsanto/Bayer if all honey bees on planet Earth died! If they achieved that goal, it would eliminate all, yes, I said, ALL of their competition. The entire world would be dependent upon their toxic, carcinogenic, GMO products that are responsible for killing bees, Monarch butterflies and ultimately millions of people due to disease which includes cancer. 

There is extensive research points to the fact that Nionichoitoids, (the active ingredient in Roundup) causes CCD (Colony Collapse Disorder). This research lead the EU to ban the toxin. 

Even just a quick Google search will bring you to info such as this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid#Bees

Or this more in depth approach: http://www.naturalnews.com/053687_neonicotinoid_pesticides_bees_butterflies.html

Keep your bees away from farms using Nionichoitoids. If it kills insects attempting to kill the plant it also kills insects that happen to be foraging for flowers.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

McBain said:


> There is extensive research points to the fact that Nionichoitoids, (the active ingredient in Roundup) causes CCD (Colony Collapse Disorder).




Round up is not a neo nic.
wadf


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

McBain said:


> here is extensive research points to the fact that Nionichoitoids, (the active ingredient in Roundup) causes CCD (Colony Collapse Disorder). This research lead the EU to ban the toxin.


Post that extensive research, would you?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

McBain said:


> Or this more in depth approach: http://www.naturalnews.com/053687_neonicotinoid_pesticides_bees_butterflies.html


Sure enough there's the "in-depth" article with the "proof", though it dosent have as many views as the article quoting a doctor claiming Hillary Clinton has one year left to live or the one exposing the "dark reality" of chemtrails.


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## NAC89 (Jun 1, 2016)

McBain said:


> There is extensive research points to the fact that Nionichoitoids, (the active ingredient in Roundup) causes CCD (Colony Collapse Disorder). This research lead the EU to ban the toxin.


Wow just wow..... Just an FYI, the active ingredient in roundup is glyphosate which is an herbicide(that kills plants) not neonic which is a pesticide(those kill insects). Had to add those parentheses pointing out what each one does just in case you didn't understand that.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

natural news is a fake news website

mcbain is fishing


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## McBain (Aug 23, 2016)

DavidZ said:


> Round up is not a neo nic.
> wadf


Good call on glyphosate rather than nionichoitoids. I got my poisons confused there. ; )

As for research, it does exist:

http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1050&context=mes_capstones

http://www.olympiabeekeepers.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/sublethalexposuretoneonicslu3.pdf

http://www.olyrose.org/articles/are-neonicotinoids-killing-bees_xerces-society1.pdf (View section 5.2.4)

In 2011 nearly 325,000 lbs of neonicotinoids were applied to fields in California. 









Shortly after, from 2012 - 2013, the average beekeeper in CA discovered that 44 to 49 of their 100 hives were dead. 44% - 49% of colonies died during that time. That's almost 1 out of every 2 hives, dead. I'd hate to walk into my bee yard and discover that wouldn't you? 









California nets close to 13.7 billion dollars in agricultural exports per year while Nevada, their next door neighbor nets around 46 million per year in agricultural exports. California experienced a 44 - 49% loss during the years of 2012 - 2013. Nevada experienced colony losses between 0 and 35%. 

Nevada agriculture earns 297.8% less than CA per year, and beekeepers experience 14 - 44% more losses in California. Just random numbers or perhaps an answer to problem of CCD

As I previously stated: I am going to keep my bees away from fields if at all possible. If you keep bees on a field that uses neonicotinoids, please let me how it works out for you. I would be very interested in hearing about what you have experienced.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

Nabber86 said:


> Strawman much?


Yeah, probably. But someone on the internet was wrong. That can't stand.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

McBain said:


> Good call on glyphosate rather than nionichoitoids. I got my poisons confused there. ; )
> 
> As for research.....
> 
> As I previously stated: I am going to keep my bees away from fields if at all possible. If you keep bees on a field that uses neonicotinoids, please let me how it works out for you. I would be very interested in hearing about what you have experienced.


Your song and dance has been heard and seen before, Ad nauseam.
It's old and tired.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

FlowerPlanter said:


> >Monsanto working for the bees!!
> 
> They are working on a super GM Bee that is round up ready. These bees will be disease and mite free. They will make soooo much more honey! Everyone will get them.
> 
> There will be so much honey on the market honey prices will soon plummet, beekeepers will need an ever increasingly amount of bees to turn a profit. The few that don't buy in won't be able to compete, when the GM genes mix with yours they will come take your bees and sue you for using their genes. World trade will block this honey which will further plummet honey prices.


I had laughed at this, but in all seriousness that's exactly what they did with the corn farmers. Yes, indeed they would sue you for every penny!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

McBain said:


> If you keep bees on a field that uses neonicotinoids, please let me how it works out for you. I would be very interested in hearing about what you have experienced.


I keep bees in 40 apiaries, many of which are surrounded by corn treated with clothianadin. I haven't seen any problems. My bees are healthy and productive. 2% loss this past winter. 30+ tons honey this summer. 1500 queens raised. That's my experience and how it works for me. 

And you?


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## rainperimeter (Jan 10, 2015)

What's amazing is that the residential chemical herbicide, fungicide, insecticide and fertilizer market is a $9 billion dollar a year industry. Those are you're neighbors, friends, relatives, etc - your average Joe at the hardware store with no training, certifications of knowledge of the stuff they're buying. Residential Americans use more pounds per square acre of harmful chemicals on their LAWN alone than any single agricultural crop. Read that again. 

In the agricultural industry some can argue that there is a place for the chemical option but it should only be exercised as an absolutely last resort. With most people, that's not the case, especially with your average American homeowner trying to have the nicest lawn on the block.


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## rainperimeter (Jan 10, 2015)

30 tons! ****!

I live in central MA and have only a few hives and we had a huuuuuuge flow through the spring and into the early summer. After that it's been absolutely nothing and there are no flowers anywhere in sight. I don't expect much in terms of nectar flow for the remainder of the year.


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## McBain (Aug 23, 2016)

Michael Palmer said:


> I keep bees in 40 apiaries, many of which are surrounded by corn treated with clothianadin. I haven't seen any problems. My bees are healthy and productive. 2% loss this past winter. 30+ tons honey this summer. 1500 queens raised. That's my experience and how it works for me.


Sounds like your operations are working great for you. How often are the fields treated? 

I know people who run a large apiary operation here in Arizona. Back about 5 years ago they had hundreds of hives near cotton and hundreds of hives out in the mountains. During 2013 nearly every hive they had in the fields died of CCD and there were no unusual losses 50 miles away in the mountains.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Insecticides on cotton have been a problem for many decades...long before neonics. And you know what insecticide was used on that cotton, yes?

How many times were the corn fields treated? The corn is planted every year, and the seed is always treated with clothianadin.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

McBain said:


> Sounds like your operations are working great for you. How often are the fields treated?
> 
> I know people who run a large apiary operation here in Arizona. Back about 5 years ago they had hundreds of hives near cotton and hundreds of hives out in the mountains. During 2013 nearly every hive they had in the fields died of CCD and there were no unusual losses 50 miles away in the mountains.


Yes, this is hardly a revelation, cotton is probably the most pesticide intensive crops grown in the US. Beekeepers have been losing hives on cotton fields for decades, long before systemic seed coatings were introduced? Do some research, you need to have a better understanding of what CCD is and also what it isn't.
Oops, sorry, looks like Mr. Palmer was giving the same education as well.


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## Skeggley (Jul 25, 2015)

Here in Aus we have no varroa and no CCD. 
We do however use the same chemicals to treat our crops...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> Oops, sorry, looks like Mr. Palmer was giving the same education as well.


Well Jim, maybe if more of us who have been around long enough keep saying it, what we say might sink in.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

McBain said:


> As I previously stated: I am going to keep my bees away from fields if at all possible. If you keep bees on a field that uses neonicotinoids, please let me how it works out for you. I would be very interested in hearing about what you have experienced.


Pictures speak louder than words 





Fourty yards around every neronic on the market. Not saying it's not contributing to the problem but it's not the overwhelming problem in our industry. I've farmed and kept bees now for nearly 20 years using neonic in my farm rotation. 
FYI, it's not the round up that kills the bees. It's the roundup and GM tech which has made better farmers, in everyway, which in turn had eliminated all those weedy fields our bees use to thrive on.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Skeggley said:


> Here in Aus we have no varroa and no CCD.
> We do however use the same chemicals to treat our crops...


This is known as the "Australian problem" among those seeking to ban neonics.


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## casino boy (Apr 18, 2015)

Had to look that one up (hyperbole) 
Good call this is better than the Sunday comic's in the paper.
Hope you had a great year.


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Well Jim, maybe if more of us who have been around long enough keep saying it, what we say might sink in.


Peoples cups must willing to accept the wisdom poured in to it. If some ones cup is all ready full, then no amount of pouring will work.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> I like these threads because they always show me who I shouldn't take seriously on the forum.
> 
> Just one man's opinion, of course.


More than one man's opinion.


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## McBain (Aug 23, 2016)

Michael Palmer said:


> Insecticides on cotton have been a problem for many decades...long before neonics. And you know what insecticide was used on that cotton, yes?
> 
> How many times were the corn fields treated? The corn is planted every year, and the seed is always treated with clothianadin.


I do not know what insecticide was used in this instance. I do know that cotton is treated with insecticides then when it is close to harvest it is sprayed with a herbicide to kill the leaves.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

> Wow just wow..... Just an FYI, the active ingredient in roundup is glyphosate which is an herbicide(that kills plants) not neonic which is a pesticide(those kill insects). Had to add those parentheses pointing out what each one does just in case you didn't understand that.


Not to pick on anyone, just one of many little pet-peeves of mine. Pesticide is a basket term for all chemicals that may control some kind of pests. The specific pesticide that kills plants is called a herbicide, insects is insecticide, fungus is fungicide, rodents is rodenticide, etc.

Back into my hole,

Tom


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> I keep bees in 40 apiaries, many of which are surrounded by corn treated with clothianadin.
> ...
> And you?


I am really surrounded by corn. Without alternative forage.

Where did all the blossoming meadows gone, that you show in your presentation slides?



Ian said:


> Fourty yards around every neronic on the market. Not saying it's not contributing to the problem but it's not the overwhelming problem in our industry.


No, it is not contributing to your industry. You two are in Canada, or close to it's border. That means completely different temperatures, much more water surrounding you, much more woods, and meadows in full bloom. 

Where I live corn pollen makes up 80-90 % of all pollen coming in during corn bloom. The same is true for canola, which blossoms in Spring here. There is no alternative pollen source during those times.

What I want to say is, you are in a lucky situation despite being surrounded by some corn with neonics.

Please accept, that there are different experiences out there in the World, where the local situation differs strongly to yours. And I already did my housework and found what is causing trouble in my industry. 

All those pollinator insect species out there don't die from varroa, so the underlying cause for pollinator extinction should be honeybee-related, isn't it? What you want to blame else? Climate change? Sometimes it is the obvious. You're asking for studies and there are more than you can read in years. I am reading them since 2008 on, continiously, and learned a lot. Not many favor neonics, but sure they all are wrong...

Concerning the topic: I meet a lot of Bayer people, their headquarter is here, and I know how they think and act. Sure that is nothing, that will help our bees. 

Bayers top product (beside the insecticides) is a birth control pill. That is what they make the most money with. They don't even think about taken it from the market although they got sued 15,000 times in the US alone. Young girls die from it (thrombosis). I eye-witnessed one young girl, that barely survived the pill, she was lucky to be rescued quickly by a doctor nearby – she has to take medication now for the rest of her life and she can't get pregnant anymore – how she stood in front of the the complete Bayer board of directors and she told them what happened to her. All they said is: you are a single case. That was it. No excuse, nothing. All she wanted was to get the risk of thrombosis printed on the leaflet of the product. They did not want this. Some of the directors have daughters, too, and were asked if they would allow his daughters taking the pill...that question was simply unanswered. Does it say it all? Besides: at the annually shareholder meeting, all of the foods and drinks served there...are organic! Is this a joke? No.

So what is this story telling us? The don't give a ... on the health of any living individual. Must be the historical roots of that company, I don't know. But I shudder every time when I think back meeting those people. 

What comes out, if you cross unscrupulousness and a potentially life-threatening technology? 

Well, we at least can look back at the "good ol' times". Poor future.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Corn soy canola sunflowers potatoes, I'm as surrounded and exposed as you are Bernhard but not to the point where they are hungry enough to bring in the majority of their pollen from corn. I have more diversity than that


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Skeggley said:


> Here in Aus we have no varroa and no CCD.
> We do however use the same chemicals to treat our crops...


And there's the nugget of info the anti-big Ag/Chem folks don't want to talk about. It blows a huge hole in the side of all their arguments. I laugh watching folks like McBane tie themselves in knots with worry and feverish concern over their self appointed role of chicken little. I'm a sideliner with over 10 years of experience now. I have one of my apiaries next to fields of soybeans and corn, and another has fields within a mile and 1/2. The last one doesn't have fields within 5 miles. I have noticed no difference in the longevity of the hives but I have noticed the hives closest to the fields seem to produce a little more honey. I chalk it up to all of the various clovers that line the roads all around that location. I treat and feed all of my hives in the Fall but otherwise I do nothing but make sure they've got room and are queenright.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Maybe, the big story here is, another U.S. company is bought by a foreign company.

Alex


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## kevindsingleton (Jun 6, 2014)

AHudd said:


> Maybe, the big story here is, another U.S. company is bought by a foreign company.
> 
> Alex


Maybe "global conglomerate acquired by other global conglomerate" is more precise. It hasn't been approved by the regulators, yet, though.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I am really surrounded by corn. Without alternative forage.


Yep, and is that the real problem? Why would you keep bees in an area that has nothing but corn?

I talked to one of the beekeepers in "The Vanishing Bees" video. He told me he takes his bees to almonds and gets a dose, and takes his bees to blueberries and gets a dose, and takes his bees to corn and his bees crash. He thinks it's sublethal effect of neonics. I told him it was time to find a new location at the end of his pollination runs, that have some forage other than corn.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

one of the things I am thinking of planting for bee forage is cotton, not for the cotton but just for the flowers. after flowering I can just plough it back in. Now for the farmers who want to harvest cotton, remember the old boll weavel just lookin for a home, well he could get a dose of sevin when the bolls start to form. There might be some flowers around at that time so you know what happens to any bees around at that time.
Johno


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Johno,

If you plant cotton, be sure to get a variety that produces nectar. This is one of the ways cotton was made to be less attractive to Boll Weevils. Buckwheat is another plant that some varieties don't produce as much nectar as others.

Alex

Alex


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## GregH (Aug 4, 2016)

Also before you plant cotton check with your Agi Dept to see if it is legal for you to plant it. In my state a gardner can not plant cotton with out a permit and they do not give out permits very easily.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> Yep, and is that the real problem?


Yes.



Michael Palmer said:


> Why would you keep bees in an area that has nothing but corn?


Because I am grown up here and I am living here. Standing my ground. 

During the season I migrate my bees to locations with mass forage, I need to, which are canola, fruit orchards, wild blackberries, locust trees, lime trees, Ailanthus, lavender, chestnut, heathen...to name a few.

Problem is, those places don't feed bees all year long. I need to move on. In summer I bring them all home and there is only corn waiting for them. I plant blossoming fields myself, at least some acres, for alternative pollen sources, and this is how I get my bees through. Also I feed pollen substitute. 

Flying season is from late February to late December, which creates another problem: there are far more opportunities for the bees to forage on pesticide contaminated fields. (Rain pooling in puddles, where bees drink from.) Spraying season is as long as is the flying season. You see farmers as late as December spraying fungicides or other stuff. How long is your flying season?

It all got worse the recent years, since farmers gave up on producing edible crops, and only produce rye and corn for biogas plants. They still continue to spray the hell out of it, for whatever reasons. (Does the biogas plant really care, if there is some weed in the fodder for the bacteria?) 700 hectars (1,800 acres) of corn are shredded in one day, followed by green rye which is wintered (green desert) and shredded in May, followed by corn, followed by green rye. 

It is bee hell. 

In my youth this all was different. There were dozens of farmers here in my village. They produced food for human consumption. All of them had pigs and cows. Fields all had wild blossoms within the fields and especially at the waysides. We had meadows in bloom. Today there is only one last "farmer" left in my village and all he produces is "energy". Even the pastures of grass are cut down several times a year for the biogas plant, because there are no cows to feed the grass to. Several cuts means: no flowers. 

If this continues, and the melting of Bayer and Monsanto is directing into that future, I need to go into cities for the bees to survive. In fact, beekeepers here do more honey in cities than in the countryside. That's madness.

I wish you that you can preserve your countryside as it is. Support your local farmers and let them produces food not fuel.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>no flowers<<

No wonder your hives feed on corn pollen


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I wish you that you can preserve your countryside as it is. Support your local farmers and let them produces food not fuel.


I'm trying. Appointed by our Governor to the Pollinator Protection Committee. Of course, all we can do is make recommendations.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Michael Palmer said:


> I'm trying. Appointed by our Governor to the Pollinator Protection Committee. Of course, all we can do is make recommendations.


good show :thumbsup:
What are some of the recommendations that is being made?


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> I like these threads because they always show me who I shouldn't take seriously on the forum.
> 
> Just one man's opinion, of course.



TRUER WORDS HAVE NEVER BEEN SPOKEN! 👍


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Last summer a lot of the secondary roadsides across the border in OK. were covered in Crimson clover in bloom. A few days later I drove to town again and the Highway Department had sprayed the clover. If they would leave the ditches and roadsides to bloom would be a big help. I thought this was one of the things spelled out pretty clearly in the Act.

Alex


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

AHudd said:


> Maybe, the big story here is, another U.S. company is bought by a foreign company.


Not so foreign I'd say...see all the shareholders...
http://www.investor.bayer.de/en/stock/ownership-structure/voting-rights-announcements/

Good ol' Black Rock ...

"The highest proportion of our outstanding shares, almost 28 percent, is held by investors in the United States and Canada..."
http://www.investor.bayer.de/en/stock/ownership-structure/overview/


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Not so foreign I'd say...see all the shareholders...
> http://www.investor.bayer.de/en/stock/ownership-structure/voting-rights-announcements/
> 
> Good ol' Black Rock ...
> ...



therefore approximately 70% is held by investors located in places other than the US and Canada. A clear majority. 
One country, Germany, holds 21%. Now add in the holdings of the other EU countries and 'other countries'. 
Sure seems like another US company bought by a foreign company and foreign controlled company to me.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Anyone can access a stock market and buy stock globally. If you factor in population numbers, to get a percent of holdings within a country, you can see how influential a stock is to a countries economy


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