# Business plan for about 100 hives



## Bodhi

Do you already have a market for 3 tons of honey a year?


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## Mosherd1

No, this is just me trying to see if this is something I can work towards in the upcoming years. Definitely not something I am in a position to jump into tomorrow.


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## hpm08161947

Bet you could sell a good bit more than 20 nucs... surely 50. Also if you did not want to retail all 6000 lbs of honey you could sell 1/2 in bulk and retail the rest.

A question though... do hives in your area generally average 60 lbs per?

I see no meds... a commercial op that is TF? Certainly a challenge.

How about supplemental feed. 100 hives will need a few totes of feed.


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## ccar2000

BeeCultivador wrote this back in 2003:
In the latest edition of "The Hive and the Honey Bee" there is a table on page 732 which could be converted into the spreadsheet that you desire. There is also extensive information included that should help to answer most of the questions that you posed above.

Hope this helps.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?191345-Beekeeping-breakeven-chart-or-spreadsheet

The chart is for 3,000 hives and you would have to adjust for pricing too. It'll get you something to work with?


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## Mosherd1

Good call on the feed, I did not think about that. Good to know about selling in bulk and that you think I could do more than 20 nucs. I would love to make this more than just a hobby, but with a wife, a 2 year old daughter and a baby on the way it may be further in the future than I would like. But if this can get me moving in the right direction and maybe even spark someone elses interest all the better.


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## Keith Jarrett

Mosherd1 said:


> Annual Expenses Gas- $500


Could you please PM me where your gas station is?


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## jim lyon

Individually all your income items are possible, collectively it would be problematic and is all based on the assumption that you can have 100 productive hives without having to purchase any bees or queens yourself. You are not funding any depreciation or allowing for capital expenditures. Trying to net $200 per hive is easier done on paper than in the real world. Not trying to rain on your parade just think your numbers are overly optimistic.


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## swarm_trapper

jim lyon said:


> just think your numbers are overly optimistic.


man jim are you sure? i was just putting up the post in the for sale section for 900 hives so i could knock it back to 100 and start making money.


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## jrbbees

drop one digit off your projection for the first few years.
10% hive losses each year.
SHB -%^%[email protected]$*#$%$%
Dry spring = mega feed

advice: get 10 hives for 3 years then make projections


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## peacekeeperapiaries

jrbbees said:


> advice: get 10 hives for 3 years then make projections



great advice. The other posts are good advice also. Retailing 6000 lbs of honey is very optimistic, I would plan on wholesaling most of it (1.40-1.80 per lb) until you can get some retail accounts going to support that volume. Everything looks good on paper, but take it from a growing operation....with bees the best laid plans are just that....plans....then the markets, weather, blooms, and the darn bees destroy your well laid plans


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## camero7

Here in the NE, 10% winter loss is very optimistic IMO. Also pollination often impacts honey production if not apples. You can probably sell all the nucs you can produce.


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## jrbbees

camero7 said:


> You can probably sell all the nucs you can produce.


That is true now. There is a boom in people wanting to save the world and bees. In five years many of those people will have bought bee, got stung, lost bees, lost interest,etc. It may be harder to sell nucs.


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## indypartridge

Based on numbers reported to/by NASS (http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/MannUsda/viewDocumentInfo.do?documentID=1191), it looks like 50 lbs per colonly would be a better guess for honey production.

Regarding pollination: how are you planning to move 50 hives? You'll need a truck and trailer. And you'll need something to lift those hives on/off the truck.

Your projected queen production will just about cover the amount of queens you'll need yourself. 

I'd also talk to local beekeepers about their annual colony losses and try to get a realistic number for that.

And your numbers don't factor in the initial capital costs of 100 colonies. That's considerably more than pocket change.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

You will not be able to sell the virgins...doesnt work here at least. you can sell twice or 3 times that many nucs. Bump your honey price to 2 bucks a pound. And you can make a lot more cells than that....
Not trying to be a rain cloud or anything like that. We have had a bad year so far and it really hit me yesterday....
mike


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## Mosherd1

I appreciate everyone's feedback. Definitely some food for thought. I would be curious how someone who has recently went from a hobbyist to a sideliner and how they made it work.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Speaking for myself- 19- to about 50 including ones I sold- The key- FEED FEED FEED!!!!! Also, having the right kind of be helps.
mike


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## odfrank

I don't see any costs for labor, insurance, cell phone, accounting, computers, business license, trucks, depreciation, extracting equipment, extracting room and the other 50 expenses that eat away at profit. Are you going to do all of that work by yourself?


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## hpm08161947

odfrank said:


> I don't see any costs for labor, insurance, cell phone, accounting, computers, business license, trucks, depreciation, extracting equipment, extracting room and the other 50 expenses that eat away at profit. Are you going to do all of that work by yourself?


Note - he does point out:
*Annual Expenses (not including equipment)*


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## bluegrass

I have gone from hobby to sideline and back to hobby several times  I build up slow and then experience big losses and get tossed back into the hobby category again. With only 100 hives you will most likely experience the same thing. Some years even people running 3000 colonies can't sell any nucs because they need all that they produce to replenish their losses. 

I would break it down and progress into it step by step.... sell only queens one year, and then add nucs and then start producing and selling extra honey. Marketing a honey crop is the hardest part, honey isn't very popular in the USA and there is an abundance of it at every Farmers market and natural food store in the country.


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## Mosherd1

Hi bluegrass, I appreciate that, it is very helpful. You at least gave me a track to run on. I must say that some of the responses make it sound like it is absolutely impossible to make any extra money on bees. I find it hard to believe that there is no way to make money with 100 hives. I guess I want the real story and not just people saying that it is impossible. If there is a way to do it and make it work I am all ears. People are doing it now, even in CT so I know that it is a possibility. I appreciate the feedback from everyone.


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## alblancher

One advantage you do have is the understanding that it will not happen overnight. Since you have a job that supports your family already all you are investing is a bit of money and your spare time. The little bit of profit you make by selling honey to friends at work or in the display at your local hardware store will help you pay for the expansion of your operation. It will also help you build a name locally and hopefully people will come to you looking for their annual honey fix. Take your time, develop your markets and build as you get the extra cash. In five years if your situation has changed the only money invested is money that did not come directly out of your pocket.

If trying to start this with no outside income the advice would be different.


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## Mosherd1

I agree 100% with you on that. I agree with what Kirk Webster says about not going into debt as you are building the business. I think that is probably the best way to go is to take your time and build to 100 hives, reinvesting the profit as you go along to expand. Thanks so much for the encouragement!


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## bluegrass

Mosherd1 said:


> I must say that some of the responses make it sound like it is absolutely impossible to make any extra money on bees.


There are multiple ways to make money on bees, that is one of the nice things about bees. Most people try and maximize every source of income from bees, but sometimes it is more productive to focus on one thing and not worry about diversification, especially if you are a small outfit. It is pretty easy to only make Nucs and make a few hundred dollars of off each hive every spring. I have had years when I made 300.00 per hive without extracting a drop of honey. Sometimes you sacrifice one source of income in order to promote another. For example: if I am in Queen production mode I want good nectar and pollen sources and in order to get them I provide pollination for free.


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## Mosherd1

Very interesting bluegrass. Sounds as if you are saying there is so much energy a hive can output a year. It is up to the beekeeper to determine if that energy will be in making (ultimately selling) queens, bees, honey, pollination or some combination. It makes sense that if you are selling nucs in the spring, assuming not selling overwintered nucs, you cannot expect much in terms of honey because the "energy" of the hive is going into bees, not honey.


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## Mosherd1

Any sideline beekeepers willing to post their breakdown of number of hives, expenses, income per pollination contract, honey sales vs nuc production etc? Could be helpful to those who want to take the next step.


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## ccar2000

Mosherd1
I am not in the business or a sideliner but I found this information on the web and it may be helpful to answer your questions or to use as a checklist? The documents can be downloaded in excel format too.

http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/financial/farm/pdf/cophoneyproductioncosts1997.pdf

http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/financial/farm/pdf/coppollinationcosts1997.pdf

Props to Manitoba Agriculture and Food Farm Management for putting the information out there.


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## MassKeeper

Well, 

I have not been at this too long, but I've started more than a few side line businesses.

Look at this way instead:

How many hives do you have now? How many did you lose last winter? When I decided to increase the amount of hives I have with Nuc's this season, I stood in line with a lot of people who were replacing hives with Nucs.I'd guess to over winter 100, you'd need 120 in the fall.


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## Sid from Texas

Look for Grant in this forum. He is a Presbyterian minister with a sideline of beekeeping. He keeps about 150 hives somewhere in Missouri. He says he makes money from beekeeping and takes it seriously. He says he "treats it like a business". He has published two .pdf books about beekeeping, that he will sell you. I have one, it is a reasonably good collection of information, and plan.

He is doing what you hope to do, makes money, and has grown it up himself.

I recently read a post of his in the commercial forum, I think under " how many colonies to be considered commercial"


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## deknow

...if you don't already have stock and management practices that you have demonstrated successful in your area (for you), then i think you make a mistake with any predictions.
we work with a few treatment free beekeepers, and we pay a very high premium for their honey...but would not pay that (nor market) the honey if the bees are fed.

there are lots of ways to make money with bees if that is your goal. if your primary goal is to make money in the short term, you will find yourself in a bind at some point (some of your bees will always look like they need "help", and if your bottom line is at stake, you may not be in a position to not treat, not feed, etc. If you've already setup a market for treatment free honey and you are in such a position, you have to choose between the bottom line, and being true to what you are telling your customers...a difficult position to be in. All of a sudden (if you've treated to save the majority of your operation), you don't have the product you've been marketing, and you either have to tell your customers that your honey is not treatment free (the customers you gained because you are treatment free), or you have to lie to your customers.

deknow


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## sevenmmm

jrbbees said:


> That is true now. There is a boom in people...
> 
> It may be harder to sell nucs.


Oh yeah, and add there will be twice as many selling them.., then.

I've experienced that before (no, not with bees)!


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## Anthony Ritenour

Mosherd1 said:


> I appreciate everyone's feedback. Definitely some food for thought. I would be curious how someone who has recently went from a hobbyist to a sideliner and how they made it work.


Despite much of the negative input I have read on this thread, I would say that you can easily profit $20,000 a year with 100 hives. I have only been beekeeping for a couple of years, basically getting my feet wet. In my second year I nearly lost all of my hives to SHB, but I have since learned how to deal with that. I just finished my first pollination contract with a small watermelon farmer and have now been able to move into selling products at a large nursery. I don't have nearly 100 hives, but I expect to be making a profit by next year, and like you I have a full time job and a family with more kids than you. 

I recently bought a large extractor from an elderly man who was a beekeeper for about 20 years. He kept approximately 50 hives, some in Vermont and some in FL, as he moved back and forth after retiring from his regular job up north. His wife was the bookkeeper for his bee business and he told me without a doubt he made a minimum of$10,000 in profit every year, and his wife did not miss any expenses. It is my intent to do the same as I grow in my knowledge and my hive numbers. Slowly promote your product, get in good with local landowners, nurseries, and others. It can and will happen if you want it to. Learn to get the kids involved as they get older and it becomes a fun family affair.


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## hpm08161947

Anthony Ritenour said:


> Despite much of the negative input I have read on this thread, I would say that you can easily profit $20,000 a year with 100 hives. .


You must know something we do not know. Too many things can go wrong to get even close to that figure. So you have pollination, honey, nucs, packages, queens, wax - you would have to be maxing out in all those categories to get close to $5000 in my opinion. But what do I know... Florida may have something special going on there.


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## iwombat

I'm running 30 hives and I'm about breaking even after factoring cap improvements each year. (Hive bodies, frames, processing equipment, etc.) I figure after I've finally outfitted my honey processing this year (skimming off the profits as I go) I _might_ be profiting about $50/hive next year IF I can get my standard 80lbs/hive. I'd be totally frightened to figure out how much labor went into that $50.


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## Acebird

This is what he said in his first post:



> Is this possible for someone with a full time job? This is pie in the sky assuming going treatment free.


If he is treatment free he can’t be pollinating nurseries, apple orchards or most any commercial farm.

If you want to make some money to support your hobby I think it is possible. But if you are a hobbyist and hope you can slide into business without having the business sense the odds are very much against you regardless of what that hobby is.

A hobby is fun and a business is a whole lot of work that ain’t fun even if the tasks are the same. And then there are risks…

I can’t see someone working another full time job and running 100 hives and that is if he is a bachelor.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> This is what he said in his first post:
> 
> 
> 
> If he is treatment free he can’t be pollinating nurseries, apple orchards or most any commercial farm.


Is pollination a treatment? I remember "Solomon and Barry's" definition... but do not think that pollination was a part of it. But I can be wrong.




Acebird said:


> I can’t see someone working another full time job and running 100 hives and that is if he is a bachelor.


There are many! Probably quite a few here on beesource - I know there is one guy from ND with close to 1000 and I am pretty sure he does almonds.


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## deknow

...Chris Baldwin doesn't use treatments, and he does almonds some years.

deknow


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## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> Is pollination a treatment? I remember "Solomon and Barry's" definition... but do not think that pollination was a part of it. But I can be wrong.


Technically it probably isn't but I know people that are looking for treatment free honey do not want the chemicals that are sprayed on trees and crops even if it is only one application. So if you are selling your honey and claiming to be treatment free you should let your customers also know where your honey is coming from.


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## Mosherd1

The business knowledge and business sense I am not worried about as I currently own my own business (insurance agency) and manage employees, expenses, marketing, etc. That is actually why this would be appealing. Since I run my own business now I am able to "disappear" from work for hours/days at a time. I guess I just wanted to get an idea of growing into 100 hives as I do not want a 100 hive hobby that is not paying for itself. I would want a self sustaining business, just as my current business is self sustaining. Otherwise I am just increasing my families expenses and the "joy of beekeeping" would not offset these extra expenses if it is not producing an income. I know it is possible as other people do it, I guess I am just looking for someone to say for instance, with 100 hives you can expect this many nuc sales, at this much/nuc-this much expenses=profit/loss. 100 hives = this much honey X ?/lb-expenses= profit/loss. I am not looing to "steal" anyones business plan, just getting an idea together as I am at least 5 years away from acting on this. Thanks again,


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## Acebird

If you are sure it is possible then run with it. You will have to find a good beekeeper and coax him or her away from another commercial firm to make the important on the spot decisions in the day to day operations. Just like you would with any business. Beekeeping, although very old, doesn't have all the spreadsheets and numerical data that insurance businesses do because it is more of an art form with uncontrollable variables.

Insurance companies have controlled risks beekeeping doesn't very much like all livestock endeavors.


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## feltze

I only have 12 hives at the moment, and am helping another keep with his 30. I can see working 100 hives with 1 day a week effort for most of the year with some real busy periods during treatment times and honey removal/extraction. 

I would think based on my practically virgin experience level, that you will need possibly a third more colonies to support a 100 hive operation. You will need to repopulate losses, you will need colonies to split for nucs, and you will need colonies to support the queens, and you will need to "grow" new comb. Each of these tasks will take away from honey production, and pollination capability. 

An option may be to segragate the capabilities out, dedicated hives for each of the portions of the business each with their own cost/benifit and profit margin. But all supporting a well rounded effort. I wouldn't expect to simply differentiate by percentages, as You may not want to pull splits from your honey producers or pollinators. But you may be able to support some splits amongst the queen production, and feed with lower colony strength. 

I wouldn't expect to retail all the honey if you produced what you projected, the time to bottle, and work the market place would be excessive, I would expect to retail some, wholesale to local retailers some, and possibly sell the ballance by the drum, as time and market fluctuations dictate.


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## davel

I'm a newbee but I'll throw in my $.02. Don't ever let anyone tell you that you "can't" do something. 
I think it's funny that whenever someone asks a question about starting a business, most of the comments are negative. I'm not talking about this site specifically. I have asked questions about various businesses (raising cattle, livestock, hobby farming, etc.) in the past and all I ever hear is "you can't make money, you shouldn't do this"... It's funny because there are people doing it and making money, otherwise, they wouldn't be doing it. I don't know too many people that work for free.
The bottom line is in order to make money at any business, you need to do it better than the other guy.
Good luck and I hope you succeed! Keep us posted as I would like advice on how to work into sidelining as well.


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## sevenmmm

Acebird said:


> . Beekeeping, although very old.... because it is more of an art form with uncontrollable variables.
> 
> Insurance companies have controlled risks beekeeping doesn't very much like all livestock endeavors.



I think this is a very good point. I would interchange controlled risks with being much more easily calculable and quantifiable. CC Miller had a year where he had to feed his bees nearly all summer and I bet there was no profit in that.

I think you would better service the beekeeping community by creating beekeeping insurance. You could use the phrase - potential bee sting to the eye - as motivation!


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> So if you are selling your honey and claiming to be treatment free you should let your customers also know where your honey is coming from.


I can't think of many places where you can guarantee that your bees will not be foraging on some crop or orchard or yard that has some chemical herbicide, fungicide or pesticide sprayed on it. Bees don't stay in your little yard, unless your little yard is perhaps 8,000 acres or more.

If you are not in complete control of everything that goes on within a 2 mile or more radius of your bees, you can not call yourself treatment free, according to your logic. Are there any treatment-free beekeepers in Utica? Probably not.

Wayne


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## BenDavis2

Don't forget about selling propolis and wax. And if you are a pretty weird or funny or really good looking there is always some revenue to be drawn from youtube and the potential reality TV show. Heck, if they will follow crabbers, and ice truckers, and oil men, and swampmen, etc. you'd think Discovery Channel should be in the market to follow a crazy beekeeping upstart as he singlehandedly raises millions of dangerous and crazy (read: docile italian) bees, and struggles to make ends meet.


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## Mosherd1

I love it! Discovery could call it "Hell's Honey" justs to add dramatic effect!


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## Acebird

waynesgarden said:


> I can't think of many places where you can guarantee that your bees will not be foraging on some crop or orchard or yard that has some chemical herbicide, fungicide or pesticide sprayed on it. Bees don't stay in your little yard, unless your little yard is perhaps 8,000 acres or more.
> 
> If you are not in complete control of everything that goes on within a 2 mile or more radius of your bees, you can not call yourself treatment free, according to your logic. Are there any treatment-free beekeepers in Utica? Probably not.
> 
> Wayne


I know about the 8000 acre figure that keeps getting quoted. If I bring my single hive to an apple orchard is it going to pollinate 8000 acres of apple trees? I think not. There are no guarantees with bees. They are totally free range but if you provide enough good foraging land that is treatment free your honey will be mostly pure. If on the other hand you plant your hives in a middle of a toxic zone your honey will be mostly toxic regardless of what you do to the hives themselves.

Pretty hard to avoid chemicals in Utica NY. It is a city, with many orchards, farms and golf courses. It does have a rather large swamp that would be pristine if it didn't have some water supplied by the Mohawk river.


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## waynesgarden

I think if you ask any person that actually has some knowledge of commercial pollination, he or she will certainly could be able to tell you stories of bees brought in for pollination that ignored the target crop in favor of the wild flowers or some other nectar source beyond the fence. I know that it happens in the blueberry fields here in Maine.

I've read you post in which you said your bees could stay within the boundaries of a 100 acre parcel. Unrealistic, given that the bee needs only to fly 1000 feet at most to leave any part of it. Even if one could confine their bees to such a miniscule foraging area, no commercial beekeeper that I know could possibly own (and thus control) enough acreage to support the hundreds of colonies required. Your ideas are not realistic for a commercial beekeeping model, or even a backyard beekeeper for that matter.

Wayne


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> I know about the 8000 acre figure that keeps getting quoted. If I bring my single hive to an apple orchard is it going to pollinate 8000 acres of apple trees? I think not.


You are correct. A single hive will not pollinate an 8000 acre orchard. But the bees will range up to 2 miles from the hive and a 2 mile radius is a circle with an area of 8000 acres. So by your definition a treatment free hive is extremely unlikely.


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## NCSUbeeKEEPER

I've been beeking for some years now and there is no profit in my foreseeable future, but that's okay. I've still got so much to learn and I enjoy it. 

*Just a thought:* With 100 hives would it be more profitable to focus most of the attention on nuc/queen production and just use whatever honey production you wind up with as a bonus. I certainly know that it is much easier to market bees than honey.


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## hpm08161947

NCSUbeeKEEPER said:


> I certainly know that it is much easier to market bees than honey.


At least at the moment. With legalization of bees in Raleigh the demand for nucs has sky rocketed, particularly after they have had trouble with packages. Not sure but suspect they must be legal in Greensboro now too. But wonder how long it will take them to get stung and then bored? Guess we should be planning to double nuc production next year but not really too sure.


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## davel

waynesgarden said:


> I can't think of many places where you can guarantee that your bees will not be foraging on some crop or orchard or yard that has some chemical herbicide, fungicide or pesticide sprayed on it. Bees don't stay in your little yard, unless your little yard is perhaps 8,000 acres or more.
> If you are not in complete control of everything that goes on within a 2 mile or more radius of your bees, you can not call yourself treatment free, according to your logic. Are there any treatment-free beekeepers in Utica? Probably not.
> 
> Wayne


Treatment free would mean not treating your bees with anything. Chemical free is a different story, isn't it? I don't think anyone is marketing their honey as chemical free as this would be impossible unless you lived on an island by yourself.


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## matt1954

Perhaps the problem of profit needs to be looked at from a different perspective. We all know it costs to raise our bees and make honey. We may not have a whole lot of control over that. So how about increasing the price of our products to capture more revenue. I charge a lot for my products and services including cut outs and such and I don't apologize for it. My wife and I work hard to put out a superior product. We have 100 hives and we sell packages and Nucs. We are not getting rich off of it but I love every second and cant wait to get our there to check on my hives. We make about 600 to 800 at a farmers market on a Saturday up here in the DC and Richmond, VA area and we sell our honey for $10.00 a pound. Some people complain it costs too much. I alway say (to myself of course) there are more customers coming right up to purchase our honey, pollen, and honey cinnamon jelly. Of course we all have weaknesses and mine is pollination. I have not been able to get into that market yet, but I will.


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## hpm08161947

matt1954 said:


> and we sell our honey for $10.00 a pound. Some people complain it costs too much. I alway say (to myself of course) there are more customers coming right up to purchase our honey, pollen, and honey cinnamon jelly. Of course we all have weaknesses and mine is pollination. I have not been able to get into that market yet, but I will.


If you can sell your honey for $10 per pound, you might want to defer any pollination contracts... as it will cost you!


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## NCSUbeeKEEPER

matt1954 said:


> ...So how about increasing the price of our products to capture more revenue.


Price fixing, anyone?


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## Acebird

NCSUbeeKEEPER said:


> *Just a thought:* With 100 hives would it be more profitable to focus most of the attention on nuc/queen production and just use whatever honey production you wind up with as a bonus. I certainly know that it is much easier to market bees than honey.


Most people don't look for packages in the fall when bees are plentiful. They want them in the Spring when they are scarce. So based on supply and demand I think providing packages would be a higher risk. Honey stores for years so that should be easier to manage.


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## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> You are correct. A single hive will not pollinate an 8000 acre orchard. But the bees will range up to 2 miles from the hive and a 2 mile radius is a circle with an area of 8000 acres. So by your definition a treatment free hive is extremely unlikely.


Look, I didn't put any definition on treatment free what I said is you have to tell your customers what you are doing as to where the honey is coming from. I know most people that are seeking treatment free (chemical free) will not buy your honey if it comes from pollination services or crops that are chemically treated. Tell your customers and see what happens. Why do you think so many people are getting into bees? They don't trust what commercial people do or say.

People that pay 10.00 a pound for honey don't want any chemicals in it.

What were the blueberries doused with? If the bees don't want it neither do I. Another crop that is heavily medicated but not all.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> People that pay 10.00 a pound for honey don't want any chemicals in it.
> 
> What were the blueberries doused with? If the bees don't want it neither do I. Another crop that is heavily medicated but not all.


Nothing was applied while we were there... if it had been a rainy season then fungicides would have been likely. Does this mean I can sell my honey as chemical free...?? But remember BB farms are seldom more than 500 acres and wh knows where else the bees foraged.

Do you know where one can buy chemical free honey?


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## WLC

I saw someone selling NYC honey yesterday at the Union Square farmer's market for $15 per 1/2 pound jar.

I doubt that it can be called treatment-free honey though. The honey was from Brooklyn, Greenwich Village, etc. as the labels on the jars indicated. Also, the lids looked like they had some color sprayed on for decoration.

I think that it cost so much because it is part novelty (NYC neighborhoods), and part homeopathic (allergy reduction).

Hey, they've been doing it for years so there must be something to their business model thats working for them.


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> I doubt that it can be called treatment-free honey though. The honey was from Brooklyn, Greenwich Village, etc. as the labels on the jars indicated. Also, the lids looked like they had some color sprayed on for decoration.


You know - it might be treatment free... but surely not chemical free. The point I am trying to make is that chemical free honey is not possible! Well... maybe if you have yards in the jungles of the western amazon... now that does look like a place where CF honey would be possible.


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## WLC

I recently purchased a # of USDA organic, gluten free, Kosher certified, fair trade, Ecosocial certified, pure raw organic Dawes Hill Killer Bee honey (from Brazil) for $8.29. Made by killer bees, no less (however, they didn't certify that anyone was actually 'dispatched' by these bees).

The label goes on to say, "Fear the killer bee...but have no fear of the wonderfully rich taste."

Unfortunately, they also have a caution that they process tree nuts, peanuts and seeds at their facility. Otherwise, I assume it could have commanded a higher retail price.

That's what I call sensational labelling.


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> I recently purchased a # of USDA organic, gluten free, Kosher certified, fair trade, Ecosocial certified, pure raw organic Dawes Hill Killer Bee honey (from Brazil) for $8.29. Made by killer bees, no less (however, they didn't certify that anyone was actually 'dispatched' by these bees).


Yup... sounds awfully close to chemical free! I am a bit surprised it did not bring more than 8.29 per pound. I doubt a european bee would survive a season there.


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## waynesgarden

> What were the blueberries doused with? If the bees don't want it neither do I. Another crop that is heavily medicated but not all.


What makes you imagine the bees found an alternative nectar source because the blueberries were "doused" with some evil poison?

I think you are far too imaginative when it comes to bees. You imagine that bees can somehow be trained to never leave an area of 100 pristine acres. You imagine that bees could never have a preference for another nectar source than the one being "offered" (polinated.) You imagine that if bees skip past bluberries in favor of some tastier nectar plant across the hedgerow, it is somehow due to the evil farmer having "doused" the crop with chemical poisons and you imagine that the bees would somehow know this chemical was used and thus avoid the crop. (If this were true, I can't imagine how then there would be an issue, with the chemical-avoiding bees you are imagining flitting off to "pure" sources.) You imagine that any beekeeping endeavor that has the word "commercial" must, by nature, have some evil aspect to it.

Your "crusade" against commercial beekeeping as you imagine it has been more than duly noted. As have the imaginings. Perhaps after you get past your first year of beekeeping, you may have a better grasp of how bees actually function in the real world rather than in some imaginary land.

Wayne


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## waynesgarden

Mosherd

My business model includes making my own equipment so an investment in power tools to outfit a wood shop was made this past year. What I need to do next is a heating system for the shop to make profitable use of my time during the coldest winter months.

I've located an operator of a small sawmill that will saw lumber to the optimum size for making boxes. Since I'll be paying by the board foot, there is little waste since I'm not sawing a 2x8 down to 6 5/8" Other than that wood, I'm still getting lots of free cutoffs.

My plan is to end the 2012 season with about 100 or so hives. I don't think I would have as much hope to accomplish that if I had to pay for woodenware. Still a long ways to go before I can quit my day job, though.

Wayne


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## Mosherd1

Hi Wayne, thank you for that. Great ideas on the sawmill and the wood shop. Seems like you have things falling in place. Do you plan on being an all around business or focusing on one area like queens/nucs or pollination, honey etc. How many hives do you currently have? Do you plan on getting to 100 next year by splitting your hives or buying packages?


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## rjones

BenDavis2's post was the first in this thread that incited quite a bit of laughter here. I think he's got it figured out. Contact the Discovery Channel and pitch your new beekeeping business!


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## Roland

Mosherd1 - with all respect, have you figured in the cost of CCD? Until it is completely understood, you have a very large unknown in the equation. From person experience, bees with CCD make no honey, and 90 percent die in the winter. Run those numbers and see where you get. A well known , experienced, and published beekeeper in the area decided to get back into beekeeping after a few year hiatus. He lasted 2 years. 

Crazy Roland


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## mjbkeeper

I have not had bees for years like some that commented, but I do agree that this is very optomistic. Also, if you are processing that much honey, in some states you are required to have a certified honey room which speaking from experience, is a pretty big expense, so is all the equipment to start producing those queens and the hives required to support the steps of queen rearing. If you want to do this as a buisiness, I read somewhere that you should build up to 25 hives and make them profitable. Then make the next 25 profitable, then the next 25. Try it all, see what you realistically have time to get done. My husband and I both still work full time jobs but manage to keep 80 hives, sell about 100 queens and sell honey to local markets. We also have two boys. The youngest only 5. If you want to do it and you have a passion, then try it. Don't let anyone discourage you, but do look into some working business plans for beekeeping. Be sure you include items in your business plan like insurance (for the family and for pollination, moving hives etc), cost of marketing, depreciating equipment and those bad honey years where the nectar just isn't getting put in the hives. Good luck.


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## honeyshack

One thing which has not been mentioned in the business plan is the unforseen. The "oh crap" now what.

Let me tell you of a story...a true one, not gossip either. This is first hand information

So there is this girl, lets call her Honeyshack. She and her hubby farm in the vast wildernes of Canada. They raise beef cows and are darn good at it. Several years go by and they feel they have learned alot and prices are not bad. Lets expand. They go out and buy 25 bred heifers in January 2003. In May the borders shut down due to this crazy thing called BSE or mad cow disease...for the next 5 or so years, depressing the cattle market. The bottom drops. Add to that a drought which brings any form of haying to its knees. So now, the good young farmers have to buy feed for the literally worthless cows!
These bright young people decide to deversify the farm. Hubby really has wanted bees for a long time and now Honeyshack is ready too. They get two hives and start off on a grand adventure. At this point honey prices bulk are .80 cents/pound. Bees seem like a profitable venture, and each year increase in production. 5 years later and 225 hives in production the farm hits a snag.
I think i forgot to mention at about year three into honey bees, and still in cattle, the drought lifts, only to be plunged in to 4 years of mass flooding...well on the way to the fifth year this year.
In 2010, the bees seemed to lag a bit, needing more help. The flooded plains are taking it's tole on all livestock. Cattle are losing condition, hives are losing the battle. The very first year of 225 honey producing colonies in the spring down to 181 in the fall due to queen failure. Mites taken care of early to give the hives the best chance of winter survival. Spring 2011 comes around. Honeyshack has high hopes of either expanding the colony base or selling nucs. Early February shows a major hive winter survival rate. Just got to get them through the next two months and home free. What constitutes an act of God really sends them into a tail spin. For 4 weeks they see major winds, blizzards, ice storms. It does not end there. March temps plumet. April brings a thaw... flooding like they have never seen. Honeyshack openned the hives for the first time in 2011, with those grand hopes of expanding dashed. Cried alot of tears. Cleaned alot of dead outs...still cleaning I might add. A whopping 91% loss rate. Now they have to rebuild and the cost to do so has added a $28000.00 price tag to the honey production costs this year.
Moral of the story....plan all you want. But be sure to plan for the unforseen. The what ifs...because one thing for sure....God has a sense of humor....especially when it involves plans


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## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> Nothing was applied while we were there... if it had been a rainy season then fungicides would have been likely. Does this mean I can sell my honey as chemical free...?? Do you know where one can buy chemical free honey?


Not in my book. I don't care when the spraying took place.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> Not in my book. I don't care when the spraying took place.


Do you eat any honey at all? Is the honey produced in Utica more chemical free than other urban environments?


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## Acebird

waynesgarden said:


> Mosherd
> 
> Since I'll be paying by the board foot, there is little waste since I'm not sawing a 2x8 down to 6 5/8" Wayne


Now here we have an imagination. Is this lumber yard growing trees 6 5/8 square?:s There is always waste and you pay for it whether you buy by the piece or board ft or any other unit of measure.


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## Acebird

honeyshack said:


> Let me tell you of a story...a true one, not gossip either.


Bees are livestock and the risks are huge. "Self Sustaining" has become more popular but the risks are still there.


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## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> Do you eat any honey at all? Is the honey produced in Utica more chemical free than other urban environments?


Today there is no such thing as chemical free (for any food item) no matter what you do. But avoiding high concentrations of chemical usage means there will be less chemicals in the food that we eat. It would be best to eliminate all man made chemical treatments for every food item but the hopes for that are grim.

Do what you want to do. I know you will anyway but tell your customers what you are doing, be honest. Let your customers decide if what you are doing is OK.


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> Now here we have an imagination. Is this lumber yard growing trees 6 5/8 square?


What on earth are you talking about? Obviously you are not the least bit familiar with the operation of a sawmill. Basically, they take large trees and cut them into smaller pieces. To any size that the customer wants. Do you imagine that a 2x4 is sawn from a tree 3 1/2" square? The buyer paying by the board-foot is not paying for the slabs initially cut from the log. He pays for the wood carted home from the mill.

If I have the mill cut lengths of wood cut to 6 5/8" wide there is no waste since I am not further cutting boards to the size I need. Though I hesitate to to complicate your elementary education in wood products, I will add that we calculated the average shrinkage normal to white pine and added that to the width of the piece so it will dry to the dimension required.This method saves a small bit of waste in having to rip 2x8 to 6 5/8" and an even more significant saving if cutting 9 5/8 deep parts. 

Is there any subject on which you are obviously unfamiliar yet can't speak about with authority?

Wayne


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> Today there is no such thing as chemical free (for any food item) no matter what you do. But avoiding high concentrations of chemical usage means there will be less chemicals in the food that we eat.


Given that Utica has a population with a density greater than 100X the density of this area... and an intense industrial complex (at least relative to us)... you might like to order some of our blue berrie honey.... pretty sure it has nowhere near the chemical exposure of the hive in your backyard.


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## Acebird

waynesgarden said:


> The buyer paying by the board-foot is not paying for the slabs initially cut from the log. He pays for the wood carted home from the mill.
> Wayne


Wayne, what does the saw mill do with all the pieces left from cutting your boards? You are paying for the waste whether you know it or not. There is a big difference in price between slab wood and milled wood but no matter what you get you will pay for the waste. You also miss a selection step buying slab wood which you will pay in scrap because some wood can't be used due to twisting and warping.


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## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> Given that Utica has a population with a density greater than 100X the density of this area... and an intense industrial complex (at least relative to us)... you might like to order some of our blue berrie honey.... pretty sure it has nowhere near the chemical exposure of the hive in your backyard.



All of our industry went south to your area. From there it goes out of the country. There is no more up here, come take a look. Over half the population in New York State is in the Big Apple. That is like another country.


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## WLC

If you would kindly help me to understand how much of a savings you are talking about when you have your hive bodies made by a local lumber yard, it might be helpful to illustrate the point.

If bulk, Mann Lake, budget, 10 frame, unassembled, hive bodies, 9 5/8" and 6 5/8" go for $9.25 and $6.75 each delivered...

...then how do these prices compare to having them made by the local lumber yard?

Do you really get a significant savings?

Is there a pitfall somewhere in having stuff 'ripped' locally?


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## waynesgarden

Slab wood is the first cut off the log, a long slice of wood, flat on the cut side and rounded on the bark side. It is waste from the saw mill, it is non-saleable as lumber. That waste exists whether the mill cuts to the size I need or to typical sizes you will find at Home Depot. You say I am paying for that waste. That would be rather hard for you to quantify. I am paying by the board foot for the lumber I cart home, not for the board feet in the tree. 

Now here's the part I think you are having a hard time following: 

When I get my boards home, I don't have to rip them down and throw another piece of wood away as I would if I bought standard-sized lumber at Home Depot. They are already at the size I need. 

If you buy a slice of beef at the store, you are paying for the hide, hooves and all the other crap that gets removed, rendered down or otherwise does not get sold with the beef that you are paying for by the pound, I guess. Who has control over that sort of waste? What you have control over is how much you care to trim off and throw away when you get home.

I don't know how to explain this any simpler nor will I try. Ask someone with the most basic knowledge of woodworking and argue with him. You seem to be intenrt on arguing for the sake of arguing and playing stupid games of semantics, wasting everyone's time and hijacking Mosherd's thread.

Wayne


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## waynesgarden

WLC,

I'm not having the hive bodies made at a lumber yard, I make them myself. I've built myself a small but efficient woodshop in the basement of the barn. The wood for the boxes, covers, frames, etc that I don't get for free from my workplace, will come from a sawmill. They buy logs straight out of the forest and saw them into lumber. They then sell to lumber yards or to locals like me. Lots of small sawmills still operating here in Maine. 

As a point of comparison you might check the prices of a piece of 1x8 pine at the lumber yard. ( I don't know what current retail prices are.) Here, a local mill was selling them for $.30 per liner foot. That would be an 8' piece of pine suitable for a hive body for $2.40. A medium box takes about 6' or about $1.80 worth of wood to make; less if I'm not cutting away waste because the pieces are wider than I need. Since I'll be making 3 or 400 boxes over the winter, buying local lumber from the mill is important to my business model. 

Wayne


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## WLC

It can be very difficult to determine wether or not that kind of a business model really is the best one out there because of all of the hidden costs of doing the actual hive making operations oneself.

If you do woodworking/carpentry as a normal part of your income producing activities/business, sure, it could make sense.

But, if your operations, and your equipment, are all on the 'Honeybee books', then it won't take much for things to go into the red.

Some business models are more of a 'money pit' and 'time bandit' than a solid plan.


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## Acebird

WLC said:


> It can be very difficult to determine wether or not that kind of a business model really is the best one out there because of all of the hidden costs of doing the actual hive making operations oneself.
> 
> If you do woodworking/carpentry as a normal part of your income producing activities/business, sure, it could make sense.
> 
> But, if your operations, and your equipment, are all on the 'Honeybee books', then it won't take much for things to go into the red.
> 
> Some business models are more of a 'money pit' and 'time bandit' than a solid plan.


I was going to get there but you have a excellent way with words.


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## WLC

The basic question of depreciation also comes into play.

Under what kind of a model can you depreciate hive equipment? Woodworking equipment?

If you make your own hives/equipment, can you depreciate it?

It's the kind of question that I would ask of an accountant.


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## Littlestinger

I can tell you that with $300 of equipment I bought at garage sales and estate sales, I can easily make hive boxes all day long. After I have a couple of jigs set up, I can cut the boards for a hive box in about a minute or two each (remember Wayne says these boards are already the right width, so he saves that step). This is especially true if I was going to be making a lot, like 300 or 400. I dont bother with dovetails, just butt joints. If I really wanted dovetails, I suppose it would probably add another minute or so to the operation, again assuming I set up my jig ahead of time and have all the tools ready to go.

Considering that Wayne says he gets the wood required for the hives at under $2.00, I cant see how it could possibly not be worth it to cut the wood himself versus buying precut boxes at $6+ each.


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## hpm08161947

Wayne... sounds like you are preparing for a major expansion. Going big sideliner or even commercial. You have the time now and the economic situation to build your boxes... sounds like a good model to me. Once 400 boxes get filled with bees the time to build more might not be economical. I have known some guys who started out this way and all that make it... have now switched to buying commercial boxes.... except for one... who now sells boxes and more.
As I said... sounds good... build all you can.


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## Mosherd1

Wayne-seems like you have a sweet deal. You cannot beat those prices and for the time it will take to cut the boards to the length you need when the width is already perfect is a beautiful thing. I must be honest, I am jealous!


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## waynesgarden

WLC said:


> If you do woodworking/carpentry as a normal part of your income producing activities/business, sure, it could make sense.
> 
> But, if your operations, and your equipment, are all on the 'Honeybee books', then it won't take much for things to go into the red.


Well my normal income-producing operations involves designing things for others to build and, other than having the tools to make lots of bookcases and shelving for my library and kitchen, my investment in the shop is primarily all for the bees.

However, thanks largely to Craigslist, I've managed to outfit the shop with mostly used but good quality tools. I bought the dust collector system new and also a new bandsaw. Based on the $6.75 figure for mediums, I estimate the savings in the first 300 boxes I make more than pays for all the equipment. 

The value of labor in making the boxes is complicated to quantify. Since I work alone, there is no actual labor costs and my own labor is an investment. This is not time taken away from my salaried position, it is time I choose to not spend drinking beer and watching football or reruns of Three's Company. 

Wayne


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## WLC

I'm not sure that we're talking about an actual business plan here.

If you can't depreciate it, or even deduct the replacement cost because you 'did it yourself', maybe you need to think about every single aspect of your plan.

400 x $6.75 ($2.700.00) isn't such a big deal when taken alone.

But, when you add in everything else that is required to run your business, and you have no way of accounting for the real 'book value' of your operation, then it's time to think about getting a small business consultation.


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## FarmerJ

he can account for it's value and assign a value to depreciate it.

First: He has the actual cost of the components. The wood is costing him something. So are the nails and the glue. It's likely that the glue would be more a fixed overhead than an actual variable.

Second: his labor. He needs to decide "how much is my time worth?" This could be rolled into an "overhead" and he realizes he might be able to produce 8-10 hives per hour. If he's "paying" himself $20 (to include all associated taxes, unemployment, workers comp [insurance]) then that would be $2 labor per box. Doesn't matter if you aren't watching TV, drinking beer or oogling over Suzanne summer. Your time has value.

You need to figure out what your "overhead" is. How much does it cost to run all that fancy equipment. Electricity ain't free and it's gonna hit your wallet sooner than later. What about "consumables". Saw blades, glue, paint, staple/nails etc.

This stuff all adds up.

Figure all the stuff you bought (box and frame material) and add 20% for the little things, (paint/nails/glue)

Then he needs to see how he is going to depreciate, double declining, straight line and per unit.

Get Quicken Home and Business. I use it to track our bees and stuff. Helps. Not the end all. But it gives me a better idea what I have spent and where on what and why.


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## waynesgarden

WLC said:


> I'm not sure that we're talking about an actual business plan here.
> ...But, when you add in everything else that is required to run your business, and you have no way of accounting for the real 'book value' of your operation, then it's time to think about getting a small business consultation.


Obviously, WLC, in the hour and a half since you first wondered if home-built equipment can be depreciated and now, when you've decided a value can't be assigned to it, I have not been able to get myself to an accountant.

At some point, I will know. Will I care? Probably not. Will I continue to build? As fast and efficiently as I can. Will I be stopping at 400 boxes? Of course not. That's my current goal for this winter and will set the next year's goal in the spring when I anticipate my needs. Would a $2,700 retail investment cover all my woodenware needs? Hardly even close, when you add in deep brood boxes, frames, screened bottom boards, inner and outer covers, wood shims, etc. (I'm sure you know a hive is more than honey supers alone.) Will I spend time and money worrying more about a business plan that meets the approval of someone that I expect I will never have to submit it to than I do about getting the work done, the bees through the winter and maybe honey in the drums? Not for a second.

Does building ones own equipment a business plan make? Who ever said it was. I certainly didn't. It would take a pretty dim bulb to think that was all there is to raising bees. I said it would be _part _of my business plan or words to that effect. While I could demonstrate a value of about $1.80 per medium super based on materials alone (maybe even 2 bucks if I can account for the misc. glue, nails and paint,) if I can't depreciate even that small amount, will I stop making my boxes? I'll let you know in 10 or 20 years when I have to replace them. In the meantime, I'll continue to make them as long as it's profitable to do so and I will have the enjoyment of doing actual work related to my bees in my spare winter hours instead of worrying about depreciation. 

If my current industry turns around to the point that I can enjoy going to work each and every day, work only a reasonable amount of hours and feel secure about the future of the industry and the economy, perhaps I'll never try to make a penny in profit from my bees. I don't really expect that to happen though, so my current "business plan," such as it is, is to be in a position, should I need to, to be able to realistically jump off into a serious sideline operation with an adequate number of colonies to split into nucs for production the following year and enough equipment stockpiled to house them. Since I have the time, the opportunity, the resources, a growing ability, the tools, the space and the incentive to work towards this, that is all the business plan I need right now.

My original post was to offer the idea of in-house construction of equipment as a possibile inclusion in Mosherd's business plan. I'm finished worrying about depreciation for now. Please continue to worry about it if you wish.

Wayne


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## WLC

Let's not forget that all the other equipment involved needs to be valued in order for it to be considered a business plan.

Basically, if you can only deduct $2 -$3per hive vs $9.25 or $6.75, then you really have given away your time for free. That's a 'time bandit'.

Now, if you can fess up to really liking to work in your shop on woodware, that's 'self actualization'.
That's priceless. But, it's not really business.

If someone actually wanted to come up with a plan for 100 hives, it's not just the hives themselves that need to be taken into account.

It's everything. They really do have to be able to come up with a $ value for their business.


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> I was going to get there but ....


That's too bad. I was looking forward to your pontificating on the subtle intricacies of how you imagine the tax code affects commercial beekeepers, given your expertise in the subject.

Wayne


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> Basically, if you can only deduct $2 -$3per hive vs $9.25 or $6.75, then you really have given away your time for free. That's a 'time bandit'.
> 
> .


When he figures his depreciation costs for a hive body he includes his labor/time. His hive bodies become a bit pricier now.


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## hpm08161947

waynesgarden said:


> That's too bad. I was looking forward to your pontificating on the subtle intricacies
> 
> Wayne


Heh Heh.... I was kinda looking forward to that too...


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## WLC

That's not how it works.


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> That's not how it works.


The value of the hives is their market value... if this were not true one would sell the hive bodies for $9 a piece ... then buy them back and depreciate.


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## waynesgarden

WLC said:


> ....If someone actually wanted to come up with a plan for 100 hives, it's not just the hives themselves that need to be taken into account.....


I agree with you on this, but, again, I do not know who you imagine is saying this. You imply someone has actually said this, though I think you are simply inventing a non-issue in order to have a point against which to argue. Why waste your time?



WLC said:


> ....It's everything. They really do have to be able to come up with a $ value for their business....


You have not demonstrated that one can not adequately appraise in-house fabricated equipment. You have only surmised that it can not be done then continue to argue the point from a position that since you surmise it to be so, then it is so. Again, why waste our time? I don't believe that you know what you say to be true.

With all due respect, when my business plan is cast in stone, it will include consulting with an actual accountant, not those on the internet that imagine what the tax code says.

Actually, I do know a beekeeper that does tax prep!

Wayne


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## WLC

There's nothing iffy about it. If you write a check for it, or make an account deposit for it, then it is on the books.

The replacement cost is the amount on the check.


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## WLC

Wayne:

I managed a business for many years, and I've spoken to my accountant/attorney more than I've spoken to most of my own family members.

If you want a business plan that includes everything that one is entitled to under the law, it's all got to be on the books.

It's not debatable. You can compensate yourself for any time that you put into your enterprise, but it has to be on the books.

So, you can compensate yourself at 2 minutes per box. At a generous $10/hr, for 400 boxes that's a whopping $133.33 !

Niiiice!


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## Roland

Actually, a unscrupulous businessman could quite easily classify the wood as an expense, saying it was used to repair, and not a piece of equipment to be depreciated. This directly offsets income, without the wait. There WILL be some scrap generated. If a person was to use the company to buy he wood, and used the scrap to heat his personal house, an expense normally paid by the individual would be reduced.

One of the advantages of making your own equipment is that you get what you want. We currently make bottom boards, innercovers, and roofs to our own design. I believe the count was 100 bottom boards, 220 innercovers, and 100 roofs last winter, all from free wood. Because we can no longer purchase exactly the frames(Dadant thickened the bottom bar) and supers(we prefer the old style rabbits) that we want, we will be looking at making them also.

Honeyshack - your story sounds familiar. Welcome to the real world, eh? All you are missing now is CCD.

Crazy ROland


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> It's not debatable. You can compensate yourself for any time that you put into your enterprise, but it has to be on the books.
> 
> So, you can compensate yourself at 2 minutes per box. At a generous $10/hr, for 400 boxes that's a whopping $133.33 !
> 
> Niiiice!


If he can make 30 boxes an hour I suspect I know some places that will hire him for much better than a generous $10 per hour.


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## waynesgarden

Despite your warm and fuzzy relationship with your accountant, again, you are offering information with no basis. 

Having wasted enough time listening to you imagine what the tax laws say, I spent about 5 minutes at the IRS websites where I learned that FarmerJ HPM & others are correct, that a dollar value can be assigned: 

From IRS Publication 225 (2010), Farmer's Tax Guide, Chapter 7



> "What Is the Basis of Your Depreciable Property?
> To figure your depreciation deduction, you must determine the basis of your property. To determine basis, you need to know the cost or other basis of your property.
> 
> Cost or other basis. The basis of property you buy is usually its cost plus amounts you paid for items such as sales tax, freight charges, and installation and testing fees. The cost includes the amount you pay in cash, debt obligations, other property, or services.
> 
> *There are times when you cannot use cost as basis. In these situations, the fair market value (FMV) *or the adjusted basis of the property may be used.


I added the bold font to the text. Until I speak to an accountant or tax attorney, Fair Market Value is all I need to know.

Thank you for your conjectures and goodnight.

Wayne


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## waynesgarden

hpm08161947 said:


> If he can make 30 boxes an hour I suspect I know some places that will hire him for much better than a generous $10 per hour.


I may be good but I'm not that good! 

As Littlestinger said "If I really wanted dovetails, I suppose it would probably add another minute or so to the operation, again assuming I set up my jig ahead of time." 

I timed myself once and cut the finger joints for 10 deep hive bodies in 1/2 hour or 3 minutes a piece. It would take me probably another half hour to cross-cut the long boards for those ten boxes or another 3 minutes each. That doesn't include assembling them, but I would still have to assemble those that WLC would have me buy from a supplier. I've never really timed myself in asembling but I glue and fasten with an air nailer. So (guessing here) at 6 minutes ea or 10 in an hour. It then takes me about 3 minutes more each to cut the handholds. So thats another half hour for the 10 boxes. That gives me 2 hours and 30 minutes to make 10 hive bodies, from raw boards to completely assembled boxes.

If we add painting, I know I can paint 10 of these in less than an hour, probably both a primer coat and a finish coat in 90 minutes. So now we are up to 4 hours work. (Time to break for a sandwich and a cold one I think.) 

Looking at Brushy Mountain's website, I find that I can buy 10 assembled and painted mediums for $189 plus shipping. I am going to estimate (guess) shipping at $41 making total cost $230 or fair market value (per the IRS guidelines) of $23 per medium super. My 4 hours labor (at a "generous"  $10/hr.) produced (depreciable) equipment worth $230. 

I think I could speed up some aspects, particularly in replacing my home-built (and fully-depreciable  ) finger joint jig with a more efficient one in which I can cut all 4 pieces at once. I can also cut the handholds more efficiently before assembling the boxes. And I could put away the paint roller and break out the spray gun. Still, 4 hours for 10 boxes, from raw boards to finish paint, isn't a bad starting point for me to improve on. 

This has actually been a beneficial exercise.

Wayne


----------



## Tall Steve

I have not read all the posts, but I think all business plans need to line item fuel expenses. Especially at 3.75 a gallon.

I calculated my gas expenses for my family last year. My wife stays home and we home school, We spent over $6,000 is gasoline. It is amazing how much we spend on gas. Most people think that number is extremely high, how ever most people have not run the numbers on there own expenses. Fuel is a real line item on any venture in my opinion.


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## WLC

Wayne:

Now you're getting the idea.

But, don't forget to cut yourself a check.

Wayne always gets paid by 'Wayne's Woodware, LLC' and 'Wayne's Apiaries, LLC'. 

Before you know it, 'Wayne's Woodware, LLC' will be shopping for CNC equipment, and 'Wayne's Apiaries, LLC' will be replacing equipment regularly. And yes, Wayne always gets paid by both.


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## WLC

Fuel prices can easily go higher than $4/gallon.

If the company owns the truck(s), it pays for fuel and maintenance.

I think that part of the problem is that so many people get so comfortable with how they've done things, that they never get around to actually incorporating their various business activities and taking full advantage of what the law allows.


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## Acebird

Three pages ago I was accused of hijacking this thread.

WLC has given input for a business plan as though it were a real business. Wayne has offered suggestions based on his goals. I agree with WLC. It may be Wayne's plan but it is not a sound business plan.

I do own a business (DBA) and I do work a lot of hours making and fixing equipment for myself that does not appear on the books. In a small operation it doesn't make sense to charge yourself for labor. However, I would never suggest that you should buy your own equipment to supply a business where the equipment only gets used 5% of the time for the business. Yet, I have done just that.

A true business plan should account for everything that is NEEDED where YOU are not the chief cook and bottle washer. And that is exactly what I am. I did not start my business with a business plan. However it is legit. At tax time I go to a CPA and he likes my record keeping and I like the magic he performs.


----------



## WLC

What's interesting is how people start up their business. 

The first thing that happened was we sat done in the lawyer's office with checks in hand.

I disagree with the exclusion of single emlpoyee operations from the benefits of owning an LLC though.

While a 100 hive operation business plan is the topic of the thread, there are so many other business oportunities that can present themselves, that there are a multitude of reasons to have a company structure up an running as soon as is practical.

Also, I wouldn't characterize 100 hives a being too small to consider incorporating. I bet that alot of operations went well over $10K in dispersements in their first year or two.

100 hives, producing a modest 100#s each of honey per year at $10 a # in 'roadside sales', $100K is alot of lettuce that needs to spent on employees, assets, and other expenses.

What you don't want to do is find yourself in the situation where you are forced to stuff it under your mattress.


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> I agree with WLC. It may be Wayne's plan but it is not a sound business plan.


If I were to say a business model could "include" fabricating equipment in-house," would that be more acceptable? 

If so. that is what was written. (See post 64.) You only imagine that I presented making equipment as a complete business plan. Careless reading, on your part. 

Wayne


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## Will O'Brien

OK, here is my $0.02, which no taxes will have to be paid on:

I would expense the materials to build the boxes vs. depreciate the fair market value of the boxes - the legality of this needs to be checked but I believe that it can be done this way.

I would not pay myself a salary, I would pay myself a dividend from the profits which has a lower tax rate than earned income. You can pay dividends as often as you decide to declare them.

I would use the business to (appropriately) expense and/or depreciate as much of my personal expenses as possible. As an officer of the company I can provide my family with health insurance, a vehicle, uniforms etc.

Find the Fatbeeman in this forum, on YouTube and in some podcasts. He lives in Georgia, has 50 years of beekeeping experience, 30 years as a commercial beekeeper. He sells queens, nucs and packages. I don't think he sells honey - it is the lowest income potential within beekeeping. He also teaches. Someone that wants to be a sideliner or a commercial beekeeper can get good instruction from him on how to do that.

With any business, the entrepreneur must have the drive and personal commitment to overcome all of the obstacles that get in the way, no matter how many people want to dwell on them. If pessimists discourage you, don't start the business.


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## Andrew Dewey

Will - what you are proposing is doable if you have an incorporated business. Not ok for a sole proprietor. You would also need to beware IRS decisions where dividends are issued without reasonable wages first being paid. Being a "business" does not give license to claim all personal expenses as business expenses. One example around here being cell phones, where IRS auditors have been known to start by calling the numbers logged in the phone to see if they are business or personal calls. You learn quickly not to claim more than you can reasonably justify. And don't forget to keep a mileage log for your vehicles if you have one vehicle that gets used for both your business and personal use! Talk with someone who knows the tax rules inside and out before you take any action!


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## Acebird

waynesgarden said:


> If I were to say a business model could "include" fabricating equipment in-house," would that be more acceptable?
> 
> Wayne


As WLC already said not if all you are going to fabricate is a few hundred boxes. If you were going to sell boxes so the equipment was in use all the time yes. One thing you have to make sure of with a business if you put equipment into a business it can't just vaporize. It has to remain with the business or be disposed of legitimately.



> 100 hives, producing a modest 100#s each of honey per year at $10 a # in 'roadside sales', $100K is alot of lettuce that needs to spent on employees, assets, and other expenses.


If you could net 100 G's with a 100 hives everybody would be a beekeeper and sawing up wood like crazy. There wouldn't be a tree left.


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## waynesgarden

Acebird, 

WLC was wrong and you are wrong that making equipment for use within the operation is not an acceptable part of a business plan. 

Again, I can not understand why you let your imagination rule your posts on so many subjects. If you only could read carefully, I clearly indicated that making a few hundred boxes was not the extent of a business plan. You have imagined that. Making as much equipment that I need and can produce efficiently would be part of one. I was also clear that I would be using the equipment I build (actually, already building,) when I organize as a business. I have no desire to sell equipment at this time (have not even considered it.)

I have no idea why you are imagining that somehow my equipment would vaporize. Did you imagine that I recommend that as a business model also? Perhaps you have equipment that "vaporizes?" That certainly will not be part of my business model and I'm not sure why you are compelled to bring it up except, perhaps, to expound on your knowledge of the moral issues of commerce. If you must lecture me on moral issues, then point to an actual failing rather than imagining one.

The "World's Foremost Authority on Everything" schtick worked years ago for the comedian Irwin Corey, but you are getting rather tiring.

To avoid anyone imagining otherwise, the second quote above about $100k and "100 hives, producing a modest 100#s each of honey per year" was not made by me. A 100# yield per hive here in Maine would be "modest" for two hives, according to the 2010 USDA report of honey yields.

Wayne


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## hpm08161947

waynesgarden said:


> Acebird,
> 
> 
> To avoid anyone imagining otherwise, the second quote above about $100k and "100 hives, producing a modest 100#s each of honey per year" was not made by me. A 100# yield per hive here in Maine would be "modest" for two hives, according to the 2010 USDA report of honey yields.
> 
> Wayne


ACEBIRD really does need to learn how to include the author of a quote in his comments. He does this all the time and is quite confusing.

As far as the 100 lb per hive... what really interested me was the $10 per pound... now I would like some of that action.


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## WLC

"As far as the 100 lb per hive... what really interested me was the $10 per pound... now I would like some of that action. "

Yeah, I inflated that a tad just to illustrate how much money could be involved.

$100K is the right order of magnitude for the kind of gross $s made. $10K gross seemed a bit low.

Of course, at the end of the fiscal year, any profits should have been spent on salaries, fees, and assets, etc. .


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## WLC

Wayne:

Frankly, I think that from what you've described of your background, that you should be selling 'specialty' hive kits.

If you want to make your own equipment as part of the apiary, it still should be LLC'd.


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## waynesgarden

From the admittedly little that I know about them, it would seem to me that a LLC would be in order no matter the source of the equipment, but mainly for the personal protections it offers. 

As for specialty woodenware, I would have to invest in a lot more expensive equipment than I have now, acquire a lot more space, refine my woodworking skills past the ability to make sturdy and servicable, though not always pretty products, buy a lot more band-aids and most importantly, develop the deep love of woodworking that I don't currently possess. While I do enjoy working in the shop, after a few hours, my thoughts turn to being outside in the garden, in the beeyard or anywhere but indoors making sawdust. I want to view the time in the shop as a means to getting to the work I really want to do.

It is interesting (and a bit sad) to read in this and other threads about the many varied ways to develop a beekeeing business model that excludes honey production. Such is life in today's uncertain world.

Wayne


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## hpm08161947

waynesgarden said:


> It is interesting (and a bit sad) to read in this and other threads about the many varied ways to develop a beekeeing business model that excludes honey production. Such is life in today's uncertain world.
> 
> Wayne


At least in this part of the country the money is not in the honey. Perhaps some possibilities if you are into wholesale-retail and those markets can take a long time to develop and take a special sort of person.

The bees themselves may be a real possibility (Nucs, Packages, Hives) if you don't mind being a livestock dealer and answering endless newbee questions.

In this area pollination pays the bills .. at least some of them.


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## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> At least in this part of the country the money is not in the honey. Perhaps some possibilities if you are into wholesale-retail and those markets can take a long time to develop and take a special sort of person.
> 
> The bees themselves may be a real possibility (Nucs, Packages, Hives) if you don't mind being a livestock dealer and answering endless newbee questions.
> 
> In this area pollination pays the bills .. at least some of them.


I saw a quote of 150 per hive would equal $15,000 gross. I don't know what the net would be but this seems reasonable.


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## Acebird

waynesgarden said:


> Acebird,
> 
> WLC was wrong and you are wrong that making equipment for use within the operation is not an acceptable part of a business plan.
> Wayne


Let me clarify. Fabricating as in putting hives together can be a good plan. Buying equipment so you can make the pieces to the hive is a plan but not a good business plan. If you start out a hobbyist and make a whole bunch of equipment at a loss and then decide you have all this equipment that is paid for so you will go into business, that's a plan too. But it is kinda of a half baked business plan because it can only be done once and not repeated for further business. I agree this does happen but it is not an approach a business man would take and you certainly can not take it to the bank or any other investor.


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## WLC

The point I was making is this: unless you are compensated for your time and get a real business advantage from the activity, then why do it?

What can easily happen when you fabricate your own equipment is that you gave away your time and a tax advantage, for free, and your operation has lost value.

It might not be such a big deal for a small, sole proprietor operation, but if the value of your assets and/or your gross receipts are over $10K, then you should avoid blunders that can cost thousands of $s.

100 hives, and all of the time, assets, and gross receipts involved really does need to be managed with careful attention to details (of the Business/IRS kind).


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> I saw a quote of 150 per hive


Perhaps about the high end for hives trucked to California and back for Almonds. Wildly high for any other crop in any other state, closer to the $40 to $75 range. A little more than that for blueberries in Maine in a good year. There is a long thread on pollination prices in the Commercial forum here discussing polination prices.

Wayne


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## hpm08161947

Our average Gross would be about $135 per hive
Pollination $60
Nucs sold $30 (1 per 3 hives)
Honey $45 

Probably more typical of the fairly large sideliner in this area.


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## WLC

hpm:

Would you say that your apiary assets have reached the $10K mark? Just curious.


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## hpm08161947

Yes - much greater than 10K. 400 hives (depending on the moment in the season)


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> Let me clarify. Fabricating as in putting hives together can be a good plan. Buying equipment so you can make the pieces to the hive is a plan but not a good business plan.


You have clarified nothing. The four pieces of wood for which you are paying retail prices is simply wood that has completed only part of the path to becoming a hive body. It has not progressed beyond the point at which you received simply due to the economy of shipping. You still need to buy a hammer or air nailer and, hopefully, a square to complete the construction of the box. Then you need to buy a paint brush or roller if you want to finish it. Brushy Mountain sells assembled and painted hive bodies and, by your logic, I would think purchasing only those should be included in what you imagine to be a good business plan. Why have you accepted an arbitrary starting point in the manufacturing process of hive equipment as the standard for a business plan? There is no reasonable explaination for it. 

Woodworking equipment is not used only up to startup of the company but though the life of the operation (unless one goes to all plastic or decides to purchase all woodenware, pallets, etc. and never repair anything. Do you know any commercial beekeepers that does not own at least a saw for use in the business? (I know I am asking the wrong person, here.)

The company I work for has a substantial capital investment in tools and machinery to be used soley for fabricating other equipment to be used in our plants. This is true in other plants I've been in while working in this industry.

Roland has mentioned the equipment that was built last winter for use in his beekeeping business. That is a real-world example from a commercial beekeeper. While I'll be talking to a tax advisor, I look for direction in the real-world experience of people actually doing something rather than imagining it. 

Wayne


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## Mosherd1

HPM, interesting, I like how you break it down like that. Do you sell most of your honey wholesale? I would imagine so it you are getting $40 for honey/hive and the fact that you have 400 colonies. Did you grow into 400 hives slowly or did you make a big jump one year from like 50-300 for instance?


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## WLC

hpm:

I'd say that you're definitely a large apiary.

Has anyone ever put a $ value on drawn comb, as well as honey and pollen left in the hive for overwintering?

The reason that I'm asking is that once the bees produce it, it's an asset. However, if you allow the bees to consume it, then it's one of those hidden costs.

I bring this up because it may point to a way recover hidden/lost assets (like comb, honey and pollen).


----------



## waynesgarden

WLC said:


> The point I was making is this: unless you are compensated for your time and get a real business advantage from the activity, then why do it?


The immediate and obvious business advantage to investing my time now is that I do not have to raise (and be in debt for) the cost of purchasing all woodenware needed to start up. In fact, I refuse to go into debt to start up by purchasing what I can make for a fraction of the cost. Some may find this to be bad business planning, but, really, I don't care. I have no plans to go to a bank or suck up to any investors any time soon. Any business plan has to satisfy me and meet my needs.

As for compensation for my woodworking time, I'll leave it to a tax advisor to sort that out. For now, as a hobbiest (or am I supposed to say small-scale?) beekeeper, my compensation is the value of the woodenware should I decide to sell it tomorrow. 

Perhaps in the future, as HPM_ notes, it would be more economical for me to buy commercially-made woodenware. That may well happen and I will adjust to that. In this discussion of business plans, I've seen no mention of flexibility or future change. Certainly a business plan is can not be an unyielding set of directions from Point A to Point B.

Now, if you'll excuse me, there are about 20 new hives that that I believe need a second brood box added.

Wayne


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## hpm08161947

Mosherd1 said:


> HPM, interesting, I like how you break it down like that.


I really should have said ($40-$60 per hive for honey) I believe that is a more accurate for what we will see this year. It is just a conservative guesstimate (if that makes any sense). It appears that this year we will be selling to one of these small artisan bottlers who have started to appear in our more urban areas. Looks like $2 per pound is a reasonable offer from those guys, so retailing/wholesaling is probably at an end here. (My son hates retailing and he is the boss)

I am retired and only assist in my sons bee operation. He is the boss. I was the original beekeeper and I suppose he learned from me.... at least he was the one that said we gotta make a business out of this. A lot of the equipment is mine, but I don't worry about it.... I'm just glad to be able to stay physically active and intellectually engaged.


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## WLC

Wayne, while I only have a few hives, I can write it all off.

That's been my point all along.


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> hpm:
> 
> I'd say that you're definitely a large apiary.


There are 3 pollinator/beekeepers in the local area. 1 is about like us with approx 400 and the other had 3500 hives. The 3500 hive guy is a friend of my sons and so we have some insights into his operation, he only has 2 full time employees and I have no idea how he does it.


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## Barry

Let's keep the personal snide remarks out of the discussion.


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## hpm08161947

Wayne,
I don't like to tell people what they should do... but... as I look at the map. You are not far from the blue berry barrens. This can be a pretty good market. I know guys who go there from here - they do pretty well - most are averaging about $100per hive.. or so they say (they would not be hauling them that far if they were not). It is a tough market to break into so you have to start early and figure a couple - three years down the pike you will get in. They also sound very particular about the bees that they bring in - going as far as measuring brood area to assess a payment grade. Anyway as close as you are it is worth checking out... heck... you probably already have.


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## waynesgarden

HPM- I pay close attention to what I hear about it and keep it in mind as a possibility. The hard part to plan for is large winter die-offs as we experienced here this winter and the often slow spring build-up. A local commercial guy moved hives out to blueberries this month. He had lost hundreds of hives over the winter. I don't know how that might affect his contracts.

I might have to winter my bees in your back yard to be ready for blueberries. But then, I'd need a much bigger trailer and/or a big flat bed truck. I don't want to risk having to include buying a spark plug wrench in my business plan! 

Wayne


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## hpm08161947

waynesgarden said:


> HPM-
> I might have to winter my bees in your back yard to be ready for blueberries. But then, I'd need a much bigger trailer and/or a big flat bed truck. I don't want to risk having to include buying a spark plug wrench in my business plan!
> 
> Wayne


WE have several guys who come down from about the canadian border. One has 4000 hives - the others are much smaller. From time to time we get together to eat BBQ (Southern) - which they have developed a taste for. Most of them head out from down here (actually they are in SC... I am on the border) to Maine. It is from them that I have learned what little I know about the BB Barrens. By the time their bees head out to maine they are pretty well revved up. Some of them spend the winter with their bees and others just seem to drop them off. Most just hire semis to bring them down. I suspect there may be as much money in Maine as in CA (almonds), else these guys would not be hauling bees up and down HWY 95. They also act a bit like a COOP in that they help each other out... share equipment... etc. They are an interesting group.


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## Roland

WLC - there is very little honey in our hives over winter. That is too expensive. Generally HFCS is 1/5 the price of honey, and will sometimes get the queen to keep laying eggs into the fall.
As to the price/value of drawn comb, you have to find someone that is not leery of CCD to buy used equipment. The last time someone around here bought a large amount of used equipment, they where out of business in 2 years.

Crazy Roland


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## WLC

Roland:

I can understand why buying someone's used equipment is very risky. However, I was referring to leaving 50 #s of honey, etc. in the hive for bees to consume without it ever showing up on the books.

There's alot of value being produced by bees that's just being left in the hive and not accounted for.

If you recall the whole debate about replacing bees/livestock every year, thereby allowing the beekeeper to recover the honey that more than pays for new packages, you can see one method of asset recovery.

The only other method that I can think of whereby you can recover the value of those hidden assets is when you sell off or lease your hives seasonally.

For example, if you own a southern winter apiary with its own LLC and products, and a northern summer apiary with its own LLC and products, each apiary would carry out its own normal business activities, but when the season ended, it would sell/lease, rather than mearly move, it's assets to its seasonal opposite.

I'm not saying that this is a real world option. But, it illustrates one way to recover lost/hidden value.


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## Roland

I repeat:

WLC - there is very little honey in our hives over winter.

We run a one deep brood chamber. All supers with ANY honey are removed before feeding. The brood chamber is usually pretty empty at that time. We then feed 4 gallons HFCS. I do not see where we are leaving an asset behind. 

I understand your point, and it would be applicable in a situation where more than a deep is used for wintering. 

WLC said:
For example, if you own a southern winter apiary with its own LLC and products, and a northern summer apiary with its own LLC and products, each apiary would carry out its own normal business activities, but when the season ended, it would sell/lease, rather than mearly move, it's assets to its seasonal opposite.

That one might get sticky with the IRS. IF the structures of both LLC's are identical, it sounds alot like a laundering scheme. Time for a real accountant to chime in. 

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird

WLC said:


> Roland:
> 
> For example, if you own a southern winter apiary with its own LLC and products, and a northern summer apiary with its own LLC and products, each apiary would carry out its own normal business activities, but when the season ended, it would sell/lease, rather than mearly move, it's assets to its seasonal opposite.
> 
> I'm not saying that this is a real world option. But, it illustrates one way to recover lost/hidden value.


To me that looks like a loosing method. Each time it sells or leases equipment there would be taxes involved. The government would like it.


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## WLC

Roland:

I don't think that two different LLCs, incorporated in two different states (North & South), would be a problem with the IRS, even with the same shareholder(s) involved. As long as it's all on the books, and there are some clear differences in their activities. it should be fine. They don't have to buy/sell to/from each other exclusively.

Maybe using the seasonal increase in honeybees would be a better example.

If you buy bees by the pound, and then just let the increase in the number of pounds of bees produced dwindle back down in winter because you had no way to hold on to that increased asset, or even show it on the books, then you've just let months worth of productivity evaporate.

It really is something that should be part of a business plan. Frankly, it's the manager's job to capture that kind of productivity on the books.


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## Roland

I understand your point, and have no solution. I will talk to my accountant next time I see him.

Crazy Roland


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## deknow

WLC said:


> I was referring to leaving 50 #s of honey, etc. in the hive for bees to consume without it ever showing up on the books.
> There's alot of value being produced by bees that's just being left in the hive and not accounted for.


I'm curious how other livestock industries handle this. Do those who raise cattle put the milk the calf's drink directly from the tit on the books anywhere? Seems about equivalent to me.

deknow


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## WLC

Yeah, but most of the baby calves don't die off in winter after having drunk all of that milk.

Bees do, unless they're relocated to the south. That's where packages, nucs, and migratory pallets are born (or so I hear).


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## deknow

You've lost me.

Are you talking about individual bees, or a colony of bees?

deknow


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## hpm08161947

Not many would leave 50 lbs of honey on over winter.... 50 lbs of HFCS.... yes. And you know what that cost you and would be accounted for as a feed cost.


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## WLC

deknow:

I'm talking productivity in terms of pounds of bees. The kind you can sell.

Just so you understand where I'm coming from, invertebrates can increase their numbers logistically (think exponentially) rather quickly year round. If you can use that as part of a business plan, then you would have a distinct advantage over others who don't.

I may be stating the obvious, but allowing bees to die off each winter loses months of production.

Whatever honey those bees did consume gets lost as well. They didn't really do anything productive with it except maybe heat up the hive.


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## deknow

...given that this thread started out (15 pages ago) talking about running a treatment free operation, I think it's worth pointing out one of the reasons we are able to get a premium for what we are selling as "treatment free honey", is that the bees _are_ overwintered on honey and not HFCS or other sugar feed.

deknow


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## deknow

WLC said:


> deknow:
> ...but allowing bees to die off each winter loses months of production.


OK, I think I get you. Yes, a colony that dies in early spring is very expensive in terms of production, as it has consumed a good deal of honey, and is still dead. A deadout from early winter has plenty of honey that can still be harvested or used to boost/start other colonies in the spring.

Sure, it's expensive, but if one is keeping bees _and_ trying to improve their stock over time, keeping large numbers of colonies to see what _will_ successfully overwinter (and how) in order to select the best stock is necessary.

Many beekeepers do use this business plan, and mostly produce bees instead of honey (or pollination)

deknow


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Just so you understand where I'm coming from, invertebrates can increase their numbers logistically (think exponentially) rather quickly year round.


But they don't. Unless everyone I know is doing something wrong, which you can tell us how to do. Bees in managed hives follow natural annual population curves. One can stimulate some growth, but exponentially?


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## WLC

sqkcrk:

Exponentially means just that. Let's put the title of the thread in a different light.

Suppose you wanted to end up with 100 colonies/hives by March. Minimally, how many assets would you need to start with if you had 1 year to do so?

My guess is that optimally, surprisingly few assets would be required to start with.


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## deknow

...and if you tried this 100 times, you would find that surprisingly few times do things happen "optimally".

deknow


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## WLC

By using some basic probability, you could have at least 100 hives
by the end of one year w/ a certain degree of certainty. It all depends on your starting conditions and goals.

That's why you use logistics.

For example, what's your chances of reaching that goal w/ a single package of bees?


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## deknow

What are you considering a colony? A mini mating nuc could qualify...in my case I'd only consider a colony large enough to sustain itself over winter with no feeding.

What are you willing to bring in? Queen cells? Mated queens? Drawn comb? Frames of bees/brood? Bulk shaken bees?

Are you going to use "extraordinary measures" (pheromones, climate controlled incubators for capped brood)? Constant protein and carbohydrate feeding?

To stay on topic for this thread, are you assuming that you are going to have no disease issues and not treat? Are you going to try to select and improve stock along the way from one package to 100 colonies? Where (climate wise) are you going to do this?

One of the hardest parts of moving bulk bees around is temperature...bulk bees (including packages) are hard to transport when the weather gets warm. Late packages being shipped are more likely to be cooked (established colonies on comb has more resources for maintaining temperature)....a refrigerated delivery truck (at what cost?) would mean that you could distribute your bulk bees when beekeepers are making up summer nucs....a whole new market as the overwintering nucs trend grows.

There are so many possibilities depending on your goals (and how you define things)....I'm not sure it's worth discussing in abstract, or trying to determine the most profitable business model via mathematical deconstruction...we can certainly discuss specific proposed models however.

It's been often said that it's easy to make a million dollars in beekeeping....just start with two million!

deknow


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## Acebird

> Late packages being shipped are more likely to be cooked (established colonies on comb has more resources for maintaining temperature)....a refrigerated delivery truck (at what cost?) would mean that you could distribute your bulk bees when beekeepers are making up summer nucs....a whole new market as the overwintering nucs trend grows.


Can a package of bees survive next day air?


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> By using some basic probability, you could have at least 100 hives
> by the end of one year w/ a certain degree of certainty.


Give me 10 cols w/ 10 frames of brood each and 100 queens and I could produce 100 cols by next week. But would they be worth having? One would have to do alot of work just keeping them alive and growing enuf to be of much use the following spring.

There are lots of things that one can do. But should one? Solidly established goals need to be established before starting out, imo.

Has the OPer gotten a "Business Plan" for 100 hives out of this Thread? What's being written about now I would call Classroom Paper Beekeeping. No necassarily reality based or experience based. Intellectual Beekeeping.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Can a package of bees survive next day air?


Yes. Are you looking for more bees?


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## WLC

You're saying that someone with experience in: hitting financial goals in real life, growing invertebrates in the lab, and wildlife conservation can't figure out a basic logistics problem?

While you're not likely to use a simple optimum growth model in a real business plan, you can plan for a target success rate. It costs more in the beginning, but you have less chance of failure.

Of course, you can try to leverage your way through with a much smaller initial investment, but your chances of failure (loss) are far higher.

With something like Honeybees, I can see a plan that involves pollination contracts as being viable.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> You're saying that someone with experience in: hitting financial goals in real life, growing invertebrates in the lab, and wildlife conservation can't figure out a basic logistics problem?


I'm not saying anything about figuring out a basic logistics problem. I'm saying I'd like to see you DO it.

Go from 10 packages to 100 winter ready viable and selfsustainiung colonies in six months. Start them up in May, next year, and have them fully finctional by October. Then, overwinter them in NY and have them all be alive.

Has this Thread gone completely Off Topic from the Title? Must be everyone is alright w/ that.

Did the OPer get his Business Plan?


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Yes. Are you looking for more bees?


Not really, but I wouldn't mind having another hive. I am feeling more confident.

My comment was in regard to what Deknow said about cooking bees. For a next day delivery the bees are going to go up 30,000 ft where it it cold and the air is thin. No chance of cooking the bees there. The actually delivery is by truck but seemingly a short journey and usually at night where the temps are cooler. Your positive answer confirms that there are no regulations saying that bees cannot go next day air shipment.


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## WLC

sqkcrk:

First of all, I'm saying that if you really and truly do want to develop a business plan for beekeeping, you would most likely need to have a southern apiary. A northern apiary would make sense as long as it can work closely with a southern one. A business plan that included a northern apiary alone would have its options severely limited.


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## sqkcrk

Maybe so, but I don't know why. Maybe I am too simpleminded to understand why a business plan requires Migration. I do, but others don't. The Rulisons, for Example. A third generation NY commercial beekeeping family operation which doesn't migrate. One would simply have to figure nucs and/or packages into ones Col. Replacement Expense. And one wouldn't have to figure in all of the Expenses of Travel. I have never really figured out if they are an even trade or not. Michael Palmer would say that I'd be ahead staying home.

And, there are plenty of examples of operations that don't pollinate. So, I don't think that would have to be included in the plan either, as you suggested, I believe.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Your positive answer confirms that there are no regulations saying that bees cannot go next day air shipment.


Well, I don't know about that. That seems to be an assumption on your part. Unless it was a question.

You asked if they could. I don't know that they do, anymore. I do know that packages have been transported via airline. There is an infamous story about a group of package bees that were put into the hold of an airliner w/ the holes in the cans facing downward, which is the normal way to transport package bees, so they can feed. The problem is, all of the syrup was forced out of the cans by the air pressure. What a mess.

I have no idea about the regulations. But, I do believe that packages from Australia came via airline, until recently.


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## hpm08161947

Pollination does not always mean migration either. Just down the road from us is a guy (3rd generation too... maybe that is the key) who has 3500 hives. Most of his income is pollination with about 1/3 honey. If you want to pollinate blue berries you pretty much have to go through him... glad he is my son's friend. Even though honey is not the main income producer he (as well as his ancestors) seem to have cornered some of the best yards around. I am always fascinated by the way his operation works. He works hard.... but he does not kill himself either. Plus he sleeps in his bed every night!


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## waynesgarden

There are still a lot of apiaries shipping via UPS next-day air. Glenn, Olivarez and others.

Wayne


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## WLC

hpm:

We already know that there's a market for southern bees up north.
But, can the same be said for northern bees down south?

For example, could a northern apiary sell it's deep hives to a southern apiary in the fall just as the flow is ending in the late summer, early fall?

Or, do southern apiaries have no use for them?


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> hpm:
> 
> 
> For example, could a northern apiary sell it's deep hives to a southern apiary in the fall just as the flow is ending in the late summer, early fall?
> 
> Or, do southern apiaries have no use for them?


I would think you would have to go pretty far south... Perhaps FLA. Over wintering costs are not inconsequential here. Mainly it would depend on price. They would need to be seriously marked down. I believe at least one member on here shakes out all his bees in the fall and sells them to 1 buyer in the deep south. So... IMHO.... there would be a market for them.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> hpm:
> 
> We already know that there's a market for southern bees up north.
> But, can the same be said for northern bees down south?
> 
> For example, could a northern apiary sell it's deep hives to a southern apiary in the fall just as the flow is ending in the late summer, early fall?
> 
> Or, do southern apiaries have no use for them?


Are you using the term "apiaries" as I would use the term "beekeeper"? The location where hives are placed has no concern one way or the other. I find this confusing.

Bees from the south are of use to beekeepers in the north because beekeepers in the north can't produce their own replacement bees as early as they can get them from the south. In the spring, of course.

Beekeepers in the south have little or no use or need for bees from the north in the fall. Other than northern beekeepers who transport theire own cols south for the winter, to take advantage of the earlier spring and potential honey crop in some parts of the south, such as FL. Which was a poor crop this year for friends of mine who do so.

Are you trying to develope a Business Plan which includes selling northern bees to southern beekeepers in the fall?


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## WLC

sqkcrk:

Well. I guess it means that where you locate your hives should be the first part
of a business plan involving Honeybees. 

Let's face it, the location of your apiary(ies) is a primary limiting factor for the markets you can enter.

Do I think that a northern and southern apiary should be part of a business plan?

Sure. Nectar flows don't coincide in the two regions. There's nothing magical about increasing the number of bees/hives by using this kind of a strategy. Keep feeding bugs, and you can make more of em. If you can feed them for less, then that's great.

My point is still this: if you can't take full advantage of productivity/gains, and get it as $s on the books, then it's not that great of a business plan.


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## sqkcrk

Mosherd1 said:


> This is pie in the sky assuming going treatment free.


Where did your numbers come from. Some seem pretty pie in the sky like to me. 100 cols while working full time certainly is doable. LOts of people do that and more. Just depends on how willing you arew to work at it and sacrifice some other aspects of your current life.

Can you maintain 100 production hives? Depending on what you mean by "production hives", you will actually have to maintain quite a few more tha 100 to actually have 100 production hives. Better figure that into the plan.

Looks like a good starting point. Now go out and do it and you will be supplying your own answer. That's the only real way to know whether it is a good plan or not and what is real and what is overly ambitious.

Good luck. Keep us posted. Misery loves company.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> There is an infamous story about a group of package bees that were put into the hold of an airliner w/ the holes in the cans facing downward, which is the normal way to transport package bees, so they can feed. The problem is, all of the syrup was forced out of the cans by the air pressure. What a mess.


If the packages are sent next day air why do they need feed? Smoke them and let them gorge on honey. Shake them into a coroplast box with ventilation and ship it. When you install them the next day you can feed them.


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> If the packages are sent next day air why do they need feed?


Because if they are made up Monday, shipped at 6 am Tuesday, arrive at 5 pm on Wed. and installed Thursday morning, they are going to be pretty hungry/dehydrated.

Wayne


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## sqkcrk

And nasty mean bees that will sting the ever lovin' day lights out of you. Go collect a dry swarm and you'll understand what I mean.


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## feltze

Seems like we have disolved off the thread a bit.

Should a 100 hive business plan be taylored to the business objectives? And shouldn't it be taylored to or focused on the target market. 

1) honey only business plan, 100 hives in 4 or more locations, minimal splits, minimal travel, minimal trucking. Target Market(s) Whole sale, and or Retail

2) Selling bees business plan, 100 hives producing (potentially) 100 splits annually. A southern apiary would be preferrable but if you were selling nucs you might be able to develop strong nucs and sell locally. 

3) Pollination, If your working local, then a local apiary would probably work fine with mature colonies, you couldn't really expect to drop 100 nucs in NC and pollinate with those during the same year for a profit. If you were looking at trucking the bees to FL or west coast, 100 sounds a little light to make a profit in the long run. 


I am interested in good input to this thread as I only have 12 hives and could see building to 100 in the next 3 years. My personal goal is to be able to throw a profit from beekeeping. Understanding that 100 hives is not adequate from my computations to earn a living, but it should definitely become supplemental. 

For me I see a 3 branch operation, Nuc production - Honey - Pollination. Not all hives will be vested in more than 1 or 2 of the "branches" 

I see a requirement to repopulate annual losses, I do not expect to get 50# of honey from the hive (I expect the average to be less) My unknown branch is perspective pollination. Here in NC blueberry is a potential, local strawberry fields may provide for some honey flow but not pollination income. 

One of my goals is to double colonies annually until I can meet my target strength or motivational limitations. Question for the wolf pac, is that a reasonable goal?

A question for the commercial operators is; is there a potential demand for 50-100 hive pollination contracts?


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## hpm08161947

feltze said:


> A question for the commercial operators is; is there a potential demand for 50-100 hive pollination contracts?


We are leaving in a little bit with 40 hives for a watermelon grower. Jeff Lee left at noon with a load of 28 for cukes. After blueberries there definitely are small contracts out there.


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## WLC

Has anyone ever come up with a business plan where you agree to buy back hives/bees (healthy ones, of course) from the buyer after a specified time frame?

I thought I'd run it up the flagpole...


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> Has anyone ever come up with a business plan where you agree to buy back hives/bees (healthy ones, of course) from the buyer after a specified time frame?
> 
> .


Rent-A-Hive..... Lease-A-Hive.... Adopt-A-Hive.... but Buy-Back- A-Hive... can't say i ever heard of that - but I do not doubt that it exists.


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## sqkcrk

Where would the advantages be? I don't see how it would work, if one were trying to make a profit.


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## waynesgarden

WLC said:


> sqkcrk:
> Do I think that a northern and southern apiary should be part of a business plan?...
> 
> Sure. Nectar flows don't coincide in the two regions. .....
> 
> My point is still this: if you can't take full advantage of productivity/gains, and get it as $s on the books, then it's not that great of a business plan.


I don't think much of a business plan that involves uprooting your family or leaving them behind for large parts of the year if travel is not your thing. You could follow the flow all around the country and never see home but a couple months a year at most, I suppose, but that's not the life for me. As I said, a business plan for me has to meet my needs, not the theories of someone else.

I'm sure when Mosherd1 started this thread, the last expectation was to find that the only great plan is one that completely disrupts your life, or requires running some kind of twin, regional corporate scheme, all to maximize productivity/gains on what was supposed to be a part-time business with 100 hives.

All this theoretical wondering and corporate scheming is of little value in a discussion of a business plan for a modest 100 hives. I don't know about Mosherd1's plans, but I'm not quitting my job, moving south for half a year and hiring a team of tax lawyers to keep me and my shadow corporations out of the courts for the modest returns on 100 hives. Perhaps for those with a couple hives, 100 might seem to be on a scale with General Motors, but it's less than 4 times my current stock of colonies and I'm not 1/4th of GM yet.

Thanks to those actually working in the business for their real-world advice and perspective.

Wayne


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## WLC

There are probably quite a few advantages involved. Especially in a north/south agreement.

If it's structured correctly, you could both improve your bottom line.

However, I think that the southern apiary would be able to increase productivity, and decrease costs and risks to a larger extent.


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## hpm08161947

waynesgarden said:


> I don't think much of a business plan that involves uprooting your family or leaving them behind for large parts of the year if travel is not your thing. You could follow the flow all around the country and never see home but a couple months a year at most, I suppose, but that's not the life for me. As I said, a business plan for me has to meet my needs, not the theories of someone else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wayne


I've often wondered how many guys are really happy with that "Follow the Flow" lifestyle. Today we were off to visit with one while picking up some honey barrels from him. He does a pretty full circuit - Almonds... NC Blueberries.. then off to Maine. My son is always asking him questions and it was interesting to me that he took the time to say - "Look... don't do it my way... there has got to be a better way... I got no life!... I got no life!". That's pretty close to a direct quote. We only know 4 guys really involved in this lifestyle and I know three of them are looking for a better way. And I am not sure about the 4th. I do not know how a guy with 100 hives could even contemplate such a strategy.


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## sqkcrk

Flesh it out WLC. An interesting idea. But, one thing I've noticed in my 58 years is, that if I come up w/ an idea, it has usually been done before and rejected for some reason. There is usually a reason something isn't commonly done. If it worked, everybody would be doing it. But you never know.

Wayne,
You're welcome. I speak for those too shy to acknowledge your thanks.


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## sqkcrk

hpm08161947 said:


> I do not know how a guy with 100 hives could even contemplate such a strategy.


Herb,
One of the guys you may not have met this past Spring is doing just about that. tho I believe he is trying to build up his numbers. He has his SC yds just outside of Conway, towards NMB. He runs to GA for packages to take North to sell. Makes nucs and splits and transports most everything in this flatbed truck. Lots of runnin'.


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Herb,
> He has his SC yds just outside of Conway, towards NMB. He runs to GA for packages to take North to sell. Makes nucs and splits and transports most everything in this flatbed truck. Lots of runnin'.


Mark,
May Yahweh shine on his path..... and bless the fruits of his labors.

Herb


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## WLC

sqkcrk:

Since it's already been mentioned: If you don't have to worry about 'all of those bees' for 6 months of the year because the other guy is using em, then that's a pretty good reason to try it.

There are too many other possible advantages to even mention why buying back your own bees in a north/south agreement could work.

Why isn't it a common practice? Beekeepers can't bring themselves to do it because of their nature.

And maybe you can come up with a list of your own possible advantages.


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## belliott

I'm relatively new to bees and honey production. I think the key to making a small operation profitable would be marketing and selling your honey in your local market.
I say try building up your hive without a large cash expenditure. Try to multiply your stock without having to buy 100 nucs. More importantly expand your market for honey sales. Your going to need great labels and packaging. You need to name your price and get it. 

I think honey production is probably the most guaranteed return. If you can get 10 dollars a pound, figure out how many pounds you need to produce to meet your goals and make it worth while. 100 hives producing 50 pounds per hive probaly won't cut it.

In my area I think nuc and queen production may be worth while. There is a growing interest and you have to drive a long way to buy a nuc around here.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> sqkcrk:
> 
> Since it's already been mentioned: If you don't have to worry about 'all of those bees' for 6 months of the year because the other guy is using em, then that's a pretty good reason to try it.
> 
> There are too many other possible advantages to even mention why buying back your own bees in a north/south agreement could work.
> 
> Why isn't it a common practice? Beekeepers can't bring themselves to do it because of their nature.
> 
> And maybe you can come up with a list of your own possible advantages.


Most of this reply is a cop out. You made a statement and I asked you to illustrate how it would be advantageous to either or both north and south beekeepers. I don't see the advantage. Unless, as the original seller I could get back strong and healthy colonies of bees in the right size equipment at a really low cost.

Over the years, bkprs have asked me to take their cols south, keep them alive and split them in the spring. Then bring them back north. The only time I did anything like that, it wasn't worth it.

I take my own stock south and then north and have enuf to do to come home w/ more than I take south and still don't dbl my hive count. I could break everything down into nucs and triple col count or more, but I wouldn't have pollinating cols in May. Or, as I do, I can replace my deadouts and make some (100 this yr) nucs for selling or using. Then, meaning now, I can split after apple pollination and fill up the rest of my pallets.

Those are the goals. Goals are often fallen short of for various reasons. It is all part of life.

The reason what you propose, in this intellectual exercise, isn't done is because there aren't enuf advantages to the people who sell the bees in the first place. Why would I want back bees that are weak and mite ridden and will probably die soon?

I knew a guy who made nucs each year for the same customer for many years. A cpl of the last few years, the customer sent deeps, bottom boards and covers to be used instead of nuc boxes. My friend would transfer brood comb into the other guys boxes and put that above a queen excluder, allowing bees to cover the brood over night and then add a queen the next day when the boxes were set off onto bbs and covered. then taken off to another yard.

Then, one year, almost all of the boxes sent down had AFB scale in them. What to do? You would probably be agast at the thought of what was done. But it worked, for the seller. But I sure wouldn't want that equipment near my bees.

Lots of things work on paper or in the mind and they are interesting to explore. But think up and doing are two different things. "Show me the money." or "I'm from Missouri, you got to show me.".


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## WLC

sqkcrk:

Why would you think that anyone would agree to purchasing/repurchasing sick bees and infested equipment? That's a deal breaker.

I can still see many advantages.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

New beekeepers hijacking threads they do not know a whole lot about (and acting like experts in subjects) will kill these forums. I thought Barry said somewhere "there is no know it alls here" Its made me consider leaving. Stay on topic!!! 
Sincerely.
Mike R.


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## sqkcrk

I don't. That's my point. If I sell you nucs and you want to sell them back at the end of the season, how will they be treated? What is the state of the equipment they will be kept in? Not being under my control, their are too many negative possibilities.

"I can still see many advantages." Such as?

Mike is right. Any further Off Topic Discussion will be handled thru PMs or another Thread. Good point Mike.


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## WLC

sqkcrk:

Due dilligence is always going to be part of any agreement involving the sale of assets.

I was hoping that you might try to come up with some advantages on your own. But that isn't going to happen.

Risk reduction, reduced expenses, asset management, time management and increased productivity are some of the advantages.

Each of them has their own list of details and requirements.

I'm not going to draw up an agreement with you here. But, I would hire you to inspect the assets. You've got the right mindset for that.


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## Acebird

WLC said:


> sqkcrk:
> 
> Due dilligence is always going to be part of any agreement involving the sale of assets.
> 
> I was hoping that you might try to come up with some advantages on your own. But that isn't going to happen.
> 
> Risk reduction, reduced expenses, asset management, time management and increased productivity are some of the advantages.
> 
> Each of them has their own list of details and requirements.


I can see this working for a corporation that has many divisions but it would have to be much larger than 100 hives. Trucking is a large expense so it might be prudent for the corporation to do its own trucking. Incidentally, a "no life scenario" is the life of a cross country truck driver.


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## Ravenseye

Staying on topic, which is "Business plan for about 100 hives" sounds like a good idea!


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## jim lyon

One of the things I have learned in this business is that any agreement with another beekeeper that involves having them open up and do anything in your hives not directly under your supervision is a really bad idea no matter how good it may sound in its conception.


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## Mosherd1

"1) honey only business plan, 100 hives in 4 or more locations, minimal splits, minimal travel, minimal trucking. Target Market(s) Whole sale, and or Retail

2) Selling bees business plan, 100 hives producing (potentially) 100 splits annually. A southern apiary would be preferrable but if you were selling nucs you might be able to develop strong nucs and sell locally. 

3) Pollination, "



Wow, I have been out of the country for a few days and not able to check and my thread has really come to life! Thank you all for your responses and opinions. I like the comment of the 3 prong business plan. Almost as 3 seperate business' in 1. One would need to work the hives differently in order to produce these different products so it only makes sense to have certain hives earmarked for certain activities early in the spring.


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## feltze

From the original post...




Mosherd1 said:


> Based on 100 production hives:
> 
> 6000 lbs Honey X $3.00/lb Average = $18,000
> Queen Production= 50 Queens X $25 = $1,250
> Queen Cell Production = 50 Cells X $6.00 = $300
> Virgin Queen Production = 50 Virgins X $12 = $600
> 50 Hives For Pollination = $60 X 50 Hives = $3,000
> Nuc production= 20 X $120= $2,400
> 
> Gross Income: $25,550
> 
> Annual Expenses (not including equipment):
> 
> Jars/Labels- $3,900 (Assuming $.65/pound)
> Queen Cages, Cups, Protectors-$100
> Gas- $500
> Replacement frames/foundation for nucs: $200
> 
> Gross Income: $25,550
> Expenses: $ 4,700
> Profit $20,850




On the original post you apparently are estimating on the high side of production. I tend to try to figure an average, then discount that by 25% to allow for the unforseen when I am working on stuff.

My first quart of honey cost me $3000 ... no lie! Investments in the first 8 packages, 1000 frames and foundation, an extractor, hot knife, some meds and misc stuff. Obviously That quart isn't worth $3000 but really represents my first 2 yrs investments. I will not be selling honey this year (my second yr) as I only pulled honey from one hive, a total of 40# +/-5# Much of that 40 will be gifted out. 

As I consider the 100 hive business plan, I keep reflecting on a few hard number issues.

100 colonies = 2 deeps and 2 supers each or 400 boxes, $4000
400 boxes = 4000 frames with foundation $6000
100 tops, 100 bottoms $1000

Bees are another question, packages ran me $70 each this year, and there are options based on growth curves. 
Bee options- 
Buy 25 packages, and double in year 2, again in year 3 making your splits becomming a 100 hive operation in the 4th yr. $1750

Buy 50 packages, double in yr 2, become 100 hive operation in yr 3. $3500

Buy 100 pacages, become operational in yr 2, $7000

You may find that you need to have a plan for processing honey, sounds easy but can be quite a mess. You will out grow your kitchen quickly. A 20 frame extractor this year $1500, hot knive $100, Decapping table/tank $100 and up, honey pump $750, 30 gal honey tank $200 and up.

If you are chasing pollination, you may want to consider a flat bed trailer and a loader of some sort. I happen to have both already on hand, along with a mid size flat bed truck, so I am ahead of the curve there. Moving pallets is easier than handloading any day!

Reviewing the posts I noted someone commented on weather you may have a market for 3 tons of honey, I don't think that is a problem, unless you really want to get $3/lb, Selling bulk shouldn't be a problem, retailing some shouldn't be a problem I just wouldn't count on the retail value for your plan. 

- Plan conservative, 
- Expect setbacks, 
- Buy in bulk if you can, 
- Buy a comercial grade extractor from the start
- Expect the unexpected expences and potential loses
- Don't expect or plan on the highest retail value on anything for resale, eg. queens, nucs, honey, pollination which is not to say undersell them just don't plan on top dollar. 
- Plan on a high percentage of reinvestment capital each year as you find your niche.


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## Acebird

sounds like a real world experience.


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## sqkcrk

Mosherd1 said:


> One would need to work the hives differently in order to produce these different products so it only makes sense to have certain hives earmarked for certain activities early in the spring.


No, i don't think so. All of my colonies do those three things.

How many cols do you now have? What are your plans for expansion? Will you be marketing your own honey? If, like me, you wholesale your honey thru direct store delivery, you won't be spending alot of valuable time at Farm Mkts.

I hope you will be making some investrments and getting to the business building and production phase of your business. Dive right in. Much learning comes from doing. There is much that can't be learned otherwise.


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## WLC

First things first, set up the LLC. Don't spend a penny till then. That should happen Jan. 2012.
Then, you get to join all of those associations. 

However, it couldn't hurt to get a small business consultation before that.

Do you think that your location could support 100 hives?


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## waynesgarden

WLC said:


> First things first, set up the LLC. Don't spend a penny till then. That should happen Jan. 2012.


First things first, decide on a time frame.Then, decide if maximizing every penny of tax benefits is more important than actually getting started. I believe Mark is right. Dive in now.

Prime nuc-raising season is coming up fast. Creating strong nucs and successfully overwintering them could put you well on the path to 100 hives. Even if you make all your equipment and raise all your own queens (something to strive towards,) the nucs will have some cash outlay involved. I would assume that a good accountant will help you deal with these early expenses, or perhaps you might lose out on some tax benefits. But, so what? The best tax expert in the world can not ever get back for you the year that you may have wasted by waiting until Jan 2012 before you spend a single penny. A year of progress will be gone forever.

I've opted for raising bees now rather than just playing the tax game for another year. It's a plan I can live with.

Wayne


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## D Semple

I'm taking a different startup approach (which came around quite by accident).

I've been doing one or two cutouts a week, and catching swarms to get my bees. I'm up to 14 hives after my first 6 weeks and I've grossed a little over $5,200 doing the cutouts. I've got 7 more jobs sold so I should hit 20 hives this year. I make all my own equipment and frames from scratch and figure I've spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,800 so far. I think I can build to couple of hundred hives in say 5 years. 

Don

Pictures: http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj72/DSemple/Bees 2011/


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Nobody headed my advice.
I have a llc and it has made my life super difficult. I have taken hours of classes, filled out all kinds of paper work, etc and it just drives me CRAZY. DBA as yourself for a few years and then take the leap. And don't listen to people that have not owned a bee biz or for that matter any biz. Listen to the guys that have had to feed a family (and employees families) on a dearth year. Go work for a commercial beekeeper....its a dose of reality. You never thought that waiting a weekend for your hives to come in would make that much difference. 
As squeaker creaker (I think) said...nought said.

MIke


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## WLC

I've never found the paperwork for running the LLC to be super difficult at all.

I can honestly say that the LLC has saved me thousands yearly.

Just remember that you are building a business from day one. Protect your assets. If you can't write them off, you may never be able to replace them if things get rough. 

When that woodenware starts to fall apart in a few years, you'll wish that you did things the right way from the beginning.


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## sqkcrk

Mosherd,
Some of WLC's advice is good. An LLC is a good thing to have. It'll help to protect you from certain Liabilities.

That being said, what I want to caution you against is counting the beans too closely. Are you doing this strictly as a business? I don't think so, or you would be better off persuing some other line.

If, like others, you are doing bees because you enjoy doing bees, then do them. Slowly build up your colony count and your client list. Find the parts of the "business" of beekeeping that you enjoy most and get your charge from that. It will help you weather the less than enjoyable parts, should you come across them.

Diversify w/in the beekeeping realm after a while. After you have your colony count up. Maintain a certain number of colonies for a few years and then sell some nucs. Maintain a certain number of the same cols and sell your honey in a small set of local and locally owned stores. Maybe some high end stores where you can command a higher than average price.

Most of all, don't count your time and income too closely. You'll be disappointed and discouraged. You may be discouraged from time to time anyway. But, the race is long. So, set a pace that you can maintain for the long haul.

One time, many decades ago, I made the mistake of figuring out what I actually earned per hour. I was newly graduated from High School. Living in Western NC, in the Mountains, on a Folk School, working in their Dairy for $100.00/wk plus room and board and the use of the truck to go to town on the weekends. I was one of the herdsmen/milkers/fieldhands on 24 hours call should there be an emergency. In otherwords, a farmer. I loved it, mostly. It was quite an experience. I was stupid to look at the wages/hr. That brought me down.

Now I have no idfea what I make per hour or how many hours per week I work. But things are fine at the end of the year and I pay my bills. We aren't getting rich. But I never wanted to get rich. I just want to be comfortable in my own home.

I hope you get something out of what I've said. If not, no biggie. Maybe you already knew all of this for yourself.


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## Acebird

WLC said:


> I've never found the paperwork for running the LLC to be super difficult at all.
> 
> I can honestly say that the LLC has saved me thousands yearly.


I could be wrong but I don't think an LLC has any advantages for write offs. Its primary function as I understand it is to create a separate entity so your personal wealth is not at risk if something goes wrong in a law suit. It also is not a guarantee that you are protected from personal liability. Have a lawyer explain it to you. It will involve more paperwork so if you are a hobbyist and selling some products to support your hobby I personally would not go the LLC route. If it is strictly business (and it almost has to be to be protected) I would go the LLC route for a bee business.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

"I've never found the paperwork for running the LLC to be super difficult at all."
I never said it was difficult. Its a mountain of papers to set it up. We got a lawyer to do the filing. Then we had to file both city and state dba forms. Then franchise tax forms. Then EIN. Then sale tax. Then a bank account (the bank got the name of the business wrong 2 times)...see where I am going with this?

"I can honestly say that the LLC has saved me thousands yearly."
How, and for what line of work? 

"Just remember that you are building a business from day one. Protect your assets. If you can't write them off, you may never be able to replace them if things get rough. "
That makes a whole lot of since. Not. How can writing stuff off protect you from anything other than the IRS bill? 

"When that woodenware starts to fall apart in a few years, you'll wish that you did things the right way from the beginning."
How old is your oldest wooden ware? It can last 30-40 years if painted good. And even when it sorta falls a part you can see it. 

What kind of business are you in? seems like the reverse polarity of beekeeping.

Mike


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Acebird said:


> I could be wrong but I don't think an LLC has any advantages for write offs. Its primary function as I understand it is to create a separate entity so your personal wealth is not at risk if something goes wrong in a law suit. It also is not a guarantee that you are protected from personal liability. Have a lawyer explain it to you. It will involve more paperwork so if you are a hobbyist and selling some products to support your hobby I personally would not go the LLC route. If it is strictly business (and it almost has to be to be protected) I would go the LLC route for a bee business.


Ace, I can agree with you on that. Notice it is LIMITED liability. You still have liability. Say you make a short left turn and kill a family while checking on yards. Its your fault and they can sue you directly. Its called negligence. Or you sell a dangerous product. something like that. I would only go with a LLC if you are grossing 10000 a year or more. 
Mike


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## waynesgarden

WLC said:


> ... Protect your assets. If you can't write them off, you may never be able to replace them if things get rough.
> 
> When that woodenware starts to fall apart in a few years, you'll wish that you did things the right way from the beginning.


A quick search reveals that transferring personal property, tools, equipment, etc to a LLC in which one is a member is a very common and easy method of getting existing equpment into the new business. There appears to be no basis to the idea that one must wait until that magic day that an LLC is established before beginning your bee-raising experience. 

Many and very easily found sources confirm this. 

This is a relief to know. I thought I was going to have to throw away all my equipment and kill off all my bees and start over with new packages sand hoves purchased by the LLC to 'do things the right way.'  Apparently, there is more than one "right way" to do things.

Dive right in!

Wayne


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## Doorman

The one thing that really stood out in your original post is all the things you plan on doing. I think if you follow that plan, the joy of beekeeping will quickly fade. What is it about beekeeping that really turns you on? For some it's making honey, for others raising nucs, or queens, etc. Find out what really jazzes you about beekeeping and focus on that. Become excellent at that and you will probably do ok. The other thing to keep in mind, is successful sidelines tend to grow. It could easily take over your life. You will be tempted to make it your full time occupation, DON'T DO THIS!! unless you meet the following qualifications.
1. You must be able to meet all of your financial needs without income for extended periods of time. In other words, if you live paycheck to paycheck or even somewhere close, keep this a hobby.

2. Your spouse MUST be 100% on board with the whole idea.

3. "Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life" is b.s. Everything has tasks involved that really suck. How do you or your spouse feel about extracting honey or painting boxes at 4:00 in the morning and then being at work by 8:00? Sometimes things just have to be done now.

That said, if your ok with all of that then I say go for it. Realize that no matter how well you plan, everything changes so be flexible and be ready to implement plan b. thru z. or in my case plan zz on occasion.


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## WLC

There is such a thing as 'the tax year'.

You do want to claim deductions sooner rather than later in most cases.

And, you want to compensate yourself through the LLC as well.

My LLC is for investment assets. It did its job well.


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## KevinR

I guess I'm perplexed....

I didn't read all the pages, because I lost interest mid stream.

My LLC cost ~400 bucks for the fee, ~150 bucks for city/county fees and then the random tax payments. For a single owner LLC, it really wasn't as much work as I expected. Significatnly less than a S-Corp. With more "percieved" liability protection than a sole proprieter.

But......

I think a part that a lot people are missing. While you can depreciate, or right off various bits of the business. You still have to pay for that bit. 

Personally, I have way more free time, than I have liquid money. If I can make a super for 4 bucks or less. Or I can buy one for 6-7 bucks. For every two boxes that I make. I get a free one. I saved myself 3 dollars or it makes more sense, I've increased my expansion rate by 30%. ((Rough assumption))

Does it look good on paper? Maybe not, but I'm not sitting aorund watching tv while I could be increasing my yards.

Now, if my day job paid me unlimited hours, I'd be able to go buy the guilded supers. But until my powerball check is cashed. Personally, I need to save where I can.






Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> "I've never found the paperwork for running the LLC to be super difficult at all."
> I never said it was difficult. Its a mountain of papers to set it up. We got a lawyer to do the filing. Then we had to file both city and state dba forms. Then franchise tax forms. Then EIN. Then sale tax. Then a bank account (the bank got the name of the business wrong 2 times)...see where I am going with this?
> 
> "I can honestly say that the LLC has saved me thousands yearly."
> How, and for what line of work?
> 
> "Just remember that you are building a business from day one. Protect your assets. If you can't write them off, you may never be able to replace them if things get rough. "
> That makes a whole lot of since. Not. How can writing stuff off protect you from anything other than the IRS bill?
> 
> "When that woodenware starts to fall apart in a few years, you'll wish that you did things the right way from the beginning."
> How old is your oldest wooden ware? It can last 30-40 years if painted good. And even when it sorta falls a part you can see it.
> 
> What kind of business are you in? seems like the reverse polarity of beekeeping.
> 
> Mike


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## Mosherd1

I appreciate everyones advice and I have read each reply. I usually keep around 10 hives but many people have been asking me for queens and nucs and I sell out of my honey in 3 weeks without advertising. I can see the potential. I guess the purpose of this thread was to get ideas on how to do this and make it successful and if it was possible. I do have a full time job and this would be something for a few years down the road but definitely not my only income. This July I will be splitting my weakest hives and requeening with grafted cells from a VSH breeder I have. I have a wife, a 22 month old and a baby on the way so it is a few years off. I do think we got some great conversations going though!


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> You do want to claim deductions sooner rather than later in most cases.


Unless you can show that the venture is more than a hobby, there is no business to deduct expenses from.


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## Acebird

Mosherd1 said:


> I have a wife, a 22 month old and a baby on the way so it is a few years off. I do think we got some great conversations going though!


You little devil...

A family should take first priority or else you life will become a disaster. The Internet is great for fielding hypothetical questions.


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## WLC

sqkcrk said:


> Unless you can show that the venture is more than a hobby, there is no business to deduct expenses from.


That's why all activities need to be done through an LLC. From soup to nuts.

Mosherd seems to already have a market for honey, nucs, and queens.

Sooo...

MDAsplitter.com might be helpful in his case.

http://www.mdasplitter.com/index.php

There's enough there to cover honey, nucs, and queens.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

But dont use the ideas unless you mail the dude a check lol. 
Stick to grafting for queen rearing and normal ways (and proven) of making money and bees.
mike


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## WLC

What I understood from Mel's method is that you're seperating your operation into two parts:

Last year's overwintered nucs go into production (honey and nucs) for the current year. And, of course, the splits/nucs that you make in the current year get overwintered for next year's production.

The sequential splits providing for mite mitigation as they make their own queens.

Not too complicated.


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## waynesgarden

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> Stick to grafting for queen rearing and normal ways (and proven) of making money and bees.


That is one way, but certainly not the only way and definitely not the best way for some.

There are other, proven ways of gueen rearing that doesn't involve grafting. If I were building a large operation requiring a large amount of queens, grafting might be the more efficient technique and I would have to think about hiring someone with much better eyesight than mine to perform the operation.

For a small operation invovling slow build-up as we are discussing here, the mdaspliiter technique seems very workable (and proven) as does the cut-cell method Oldtimer presented in an excellent thread in the Queen & Bee breeding forum. I'll be starting queens this coming week using Oldtimer's method.

What is the "normal" way for one is just one of many ways for many others. 

Wayne


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

I would not mess with MDA splitter...he believes too much in it and thinks it is worth more than it really is. Grafting is the way to go for a mid-size sideliner. Or even a hobbiest. Oldtimers thread is good and that is my backup. 
WLC...that makes since to some degree..but the older queens make many more bees seems like....I have a mix of both. I personally feel like the fall queens/nucs are the way to go. But that only works in the south. 
Folks, what i really meant was the bread and butter of increase....ya the other stuff kinda works buy why not do it the way that the big guys do it...if it works for 100s of thousands of queens and nucs why wont it work for 10? See what I mean? keep it simple. 
Mike


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## waynesgarden

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> I would not mess with MDA splitter...he believes too much in it


Now there's a reason not to try something. 

Again, grafting is most assuredly _not _the way to go for me. I can't see the eggs without a strong magnifyer and strong light. _ANY _method is preferable. So I will not be grafting. Besides, you seem to believe in it too much!  

Welcome to one-size-fits-all beekeeping.

Wayne


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Do you think I exactly have good eyesight? If my eyes get any worse I will need someone to graft for me! I just dip and look at them when they come out...if they are too big i just eat em. Keeps the needle moist. 
mike


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## WLC

I could swear that the tool Mel used to remove the bottoms of the cells was a putty knife.

As for what to do with the now 2nd year queens and bees that overwintered in last years production colonies...

I do know that you'd need to put that equipment into production using the overwintered splits.

I think that they would be very useful for any number of purposes. Especially the healthy ones.


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## sqkcrk

waynesgarden said:


> I can't see the eggs without a strong magnifyer and strong light.
> 
> Wayne


Well, maybe that's your problem. You should be grafting the youngest larvae you can and never an egg.

Has this Thread morphed again?


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## waynesgarden

sqkcrk said:


> should be grafting the youngest larvae you can and never an egg.


Of course, I meant to write larvae. Very small, hard-to-see larvae.

Wayne


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## sqkcrk

Yes, they are. I have the same issues you do. Haven't grafted in years. I tend to pay others to do what I can't or don't want to.

Seems I recall someone somehow cutting comb so the cells weren't as deep as they naturally are, which made seeing the larvae easier. I don't know how they did it or what kind of knife was used.


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## KevinR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmukiN_btGw&feature=player_embedded#t=263s

They cut back the comb with a uncapping knife. It makes grafting easier.... I'll try it one day, but comb is too valuable to me at this point.


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## sqkcrk

They'll rebuild it once you put it back in ther brood nest, don't ya think?


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## KevinR

Sometimes, but usually my damaged comb gets "repaired" to drone comb. (With cell punching, mda notching, or fat fingering) 

With the shaving the thickness off, I'd assume they will draw it back out. Just like honey supers.


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## slickbrightspear

remember the old commercials with the ginsu knife you could cut an alumininum can and then slice a tomato. my mom had a couple of those old things laying around and they trim comb like nobodys buisness even work really well for uncapping.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Yep but try cutting anything other than brand new comb with any knife i.e. the old black combs that everybody likes to graft from. Just rolls the cells. 
Back on topic.
mike


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## feltze

So, back to 100 hive business plan.

What reasonable honey flow could be expected annually? And what kind of equipment would you recommend? 

My guess (because I don't have enought experience) here in NC is 0-50# per hive...roughly 9-10 drums of honey annually on a good year. Is that reasonable?

Is it reasonable to expect to do that with a 20 frame extractor and hot knife? Buckets?


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## feltze

Where would a good source for food grade drums? What kind to buy (open top or closed top, plastic or steel)?

Need a drum heater?

For me storage and handling wouldn't be a problem. IT's the stuff I am not experienced with that will bite me for not knowing better as I grow into this.


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## hpm08161947

feltze said:


> My guess (because I don't have enought experience) here in NC is 0-50# per hive...roughly 9-10 drums of honey annually on a good year. Is that reasonable?


10 drums from a 100 hives would be a very bountiful year in eastern NC. Probably more like 5 drums.

A 20 frame extractor can handle a lot more than 100 hives.


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## hpm08161947

feltze said:


> Where would a good source for food grade drums? What kind to buy (open top or closed top, plastic or steel)?


At least in these parts, when you find a buyer they will usually supply you with drums and buckets.


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## feltze

HPM, 

That makes sence to me. This year I helped a local Beek with his 30 hives and I certainly didn't see 50# per hive, it was more like 30#. In my yard of overwintered hives, one yielded about 45# and due to splits the others are growing back with no harvestable honey.


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## beedeetee

I've been generally following this thread, but I can't remember for sure if the definition of "100 hives" was finally determined or not. It is 100 honey producing hives, or 100 hives with queens in the fall? If you assume 30% loss over winter in your plan are you starting in the winter with 100 hives or around 130?

Even with my +/-20 hives I vary between 12-26 in the year after selling nucs and hives, splitting, raising queens. I probably only take honey from 8. The rest raise bees to sell.


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## WLC

What I see as a real advantage to using a method like MDAsplitter is that you can rebuild honey production hives with frames of brood from overwintered splits/nucs to any strength that you want.

Also, you can sell nucs from the overwintered splits/nucs. In addition, you still have deeps w/ bees from last year's production hives that have survived winter.

However, you can have 100 deeps total in either honey production or splits/nuc increases.

Now if you have 100 honey production hives w/ 2-3 deeps each, and deeps for splits/nucs, that's alot of equipment.

So, it depends on when you start counting hives/colonies, and what you're doing.

Even someone starting w/ 20 hives, by next december, could count their overwintered deep splits/nucs as 100 hives if you wanted to push the definition. 

For accounting purposes, it might be best to 'capture' 100 deeps (as hives) going into winter to be able to write off any losses.

PS-this might be helpful in a business plan.

http://cba.unomaha.edu/faculty/mohara/web/ALSB06ApiaryDamages.pdf


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## sqkcrk

beedeetee said:


> I've been generally following this thread, but I can't remember for sure if the definition of "100 hives" was finally determined or not.


100 hives, or colonies of bees, is 100 hives. What production you get from them is just that also. Don't muddy the waters.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> So, it depends on when you start counting hives/colonies, and what you're doing.
> 
> Even someone starting w/ 20 hives, by next december, could count their overwintered deep splits/nucs as 100 hives if you wanted to push the definition.
> 
> For accounting purposes, it might be best to 'capture' 100 deeps (as hives) going into winter to be able to write off any losses.


What losses are you refering to? That you propose to write off. This sounds like some mumbo jumbo fancy accounting that is not based in the reality of beekeeping business.


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## waynesgarden

If I start 100 nucs in July, I know that 30% of them are likely not going to make it through the winter. And those that do are not even mature colonies in the Spring. If I consider those 5 frame nucs as full colony losses, I can deduct them as business losses on my taxes, claiming them to have the value of a mature colony? (I use the word mature only to differentiate between a nuc or split and a colony that has grown to it's full potential, a colony whose dollar value is far greater than a nuc.)

While I agree that legitimate losses should be deductable, I think if I followed the type of questionable tax advice being give here, I would be the very type of person that I detest.

No thanks. My future business plan involves getting legitimate advice from those qualified to give it. (And staying out of prison.)

Wayne


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## camero7

Had a CPA with knowledge of farming do my taxes this year. Everything one spends on the enterprise is deductible. One can elect to depreciate or take the expense that year completely. I take expenses completely and avoid the problem of figuring out where I stand with IRS. Of course, if you sell something you have to report it. Not complicated. Schedule F is not that hard to understand.


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## WLC

Wayne:

Why would you start 100 nucs from 10-20 colonies in July when part of July and all of August is considered a dearth in the northeast?

It's a simple question: if you lose colonies over winter, what is the best way to set them up for winter so that you can legitimately write them off? The IRS does have requirements, and your accountant wouldn't fall for it without documentation. It's gotta be on the books.

If all that you can write off is the replacement cost of a 3# package, or a 2-3 frame nuc box, on a far more valuable 2 deep honey production hive, then you've mismanaged your assets. What happened to all of those bees?

There's nothing questionable about accounting for the full value of an LLC's assets. It's your job.


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## sqkcrk

WLC,
The way it works is you buy something that can be depreciated, like equipment, vehicles and buildings. Depreciation is a deductible. Comprende'?

Also, you can buy bees to put in those depreciable hives that you bought. Those are expenses too. Ie deductions. Should those bees die, they are not deductible until you buy more bees to replace the loss of them. 

I don't know what kind of write off you think you can deduct for colonies that died.


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## waynesgarden

WLC said:


> Wayne:
> 
> Why would you start 100 nucs from 10-20 colonies in July when part of July and all of August is considered a dearth in the northeast?


Because people far more knowledgable than I am in real-world commercial production of nucs start nucs in July. Mike Palmer, for one, produces hundreds of nucs over late summer.

Wayne


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## WLC

Lost sales and productivity, for starters. 

You fed em. You treated em. You worked em. You even dealt out frames of brood into nucs for overwintering.

Let me give you an example of what you might have to do to get the writeoffs that you deserve:

Put your LLC information and serial numbers on every box and frame that's in the nucs that you're overwintering. Take pictures in late fall/early winter documenting the conditions of each of those nucs. Then, you get to take more pictures late winter/early spring of the same nucs to document your losses.

It gets better:

Then you document each and every sale that you couldn't make (after you've sold out) either by logging phone numbers and making calls on your cell, or through emails, or through a web site.

And yes, it all gets printed out and filed for your accountant and the IRS.

Of course, you should always ask your accountant first if this is enough for them to put those losses on the books, but hopefully, they'll tell you of an easier way to do this.

We already know that purchases and sales are easy to put on the books. Losses, generally take alot more time and attention to detail.

Perhaps there's some kind of insurance out there to deal with this?


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## sqkcrk

I really want you to do this and show us the way.

You can't deduct more than you make. And you can't deduct lost sales. Lost potential is not deductable.

As before, you deduct the expense of replacement of the dead bees. If you could deduct the cost of the bees and then deduct the dead colony that would be a case of deducting the same thing twice. certainly you can see that that is wrong. No Accountant necassary.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Perhaps there's some kind of insurance out there to deal with this?


If you could find someone to write such a policy, you could not afford it.


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## WLC

I've done something similar in an LLC. T'isn't a new concept.

Yes, you can't deduct more than you are taking in gross receipts. It would be a crying shame to pass those losses on to shareholders. Boo, hoo.

Farm insurance has been around for a while. Don't assume what is affordable to anyone. They can package all kinds of things into a policy.

Sqkcrk, there is a significant difference between a 3# package/3 frame nuc, and the 50,000-60,000 bees (let's not forget the fully drawn out frames and honey) that are in a honey production hive at the end of the season. The honeyproduction hive needs to be repackaged or all you will get is the replacement cost of a single 3#package/3 frame nuc if it is lost.

You can always run your own business any way you wish. And, it's a good idea to consult with your accountant about any issues that you're not sure of. The lost colonies/sales issue would be a good place to start.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Sqkcrk, there is a significant difference between a 3# package/3 frame nuc, and the 50,000-60,000 bees (let's not forget the fully drawn out frames and honey) that are in a honey production hive at the end of the season. The honeyproduction hive needs to be repackaged or all you will get is the replacement cost of a single 3#package/3 frame nuc if it is lost.


Well WLC, if you think you can deduct the initial expense and then the difference, when your colony dies, I'd like to see it done.

Like I have said before, if it could be done there would be lots of people doing it and telling the rest of us how to. There is nothing you can think up that hasn't been done and found correct or incorrect. But keep on trying to think of something. then do it and tell us how it worked out.


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## WLC

You started with a colony, then ended up with colonies. It's about gainig/losing productivity, as I keep trying to explain.

I wouldn't be so sure that another apiary would tell a potential competitor about the tricks of the trade.

I wouldn't.


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## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> You can't deduct more than you make. And you can't deduct lost sales. Lost potential is not deductable.
> 
> As before, you deduct the expense of replacement of the dead bees. If you could deduct the cost of the bees and then deduct the dead colony that would be a case of deducting the same thing twice. certainly you can see that that is wrong. No Accountant necassary.


Sorry WLC but this sums it up in a nutshell. If I would follow your logic then I would also have to declare as income any increase in hive numbers or hive size through the season.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> You started with a colony, then ended up with colonies. It's about gainig/losing productivity, as I keep trying to explain.
> 
> I wouldn't be so sure that another apiary would tell a potential competitor about the tricks of the trade.
> 
> I wouldn't.


The gain came from an expenditure, which can be expensed. The lose will be compensated for by another expenditure, which can expensed too. What you are writing about is like voodoo economics or something. As I keep trying to explain, do it and report back to us.

Beekeepers talk to each other. Beekeepers give seminars and attend meetings on how to do what beekeepers do. Beekeepers go on beesource and tell other bkprs what they do and encourage others to do the same. Tricks of the trade arew commonly shared bkpr to bkpr. That you wouldn't says loads. And makes what you do have to share suspect, imo. I don't know why you would say you wouldn't share what you know in a Thread in which you propose that people follow your advice. Makes no sense to me.


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## WLC

That's an increase in your assets. Not your income. Unless, of course, you sold them.

Your business activity does include everything that can be done with Honeybees that increases the value of your company.

Perhaps you should think of all of the other kinds of livestock out there, and how the loss of livestock is dealt with by those in animal husbandry. If they lose a calf, or a foal, it's easy to see why it's a loss in productivity/assets.


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## sqkcrk

You can't say that if my calf had lived to maturity I would have made $X therefore I lost $X and count that as a deduction.


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## WLC

Actually, it's a loss anyway that you look at it.

You seem to forget that time, resources, and money were required to make that livestock (cows or bees, doesn't matter). That's lost along with the animal.

And, of course, dead cows or bees can't make milk or honey. Your company is that much poorer because of that lost income.

Lost livestock are worth considerably more than their replacement cost. Especially when they never went into production.


----------



## jim lyon

WLC said:


> Lost livestock are worth considerably more than their replacement cost. Especially when they never went into production.


The IRS only allows deductions on those expenses which you can document with a paper trail. They care not about your opinion of the value of an asset at any given time. Neither do they care about what might have happened if it had rained or if the winter hadnt been so cold; they only care about actual financial transactions (or if there has been barter in lieu of an actual monetary transaction). The IRS's response to your logic would be to say that any time you have an asset you always have the option of selling that asset and realizing a profit but then of course you will have to pay tax on that gain. Just as the value of a stock might rise and fall during your time of ownership a gain or loss isnt actually established until money has been exchanged. The IRS is actually doing you a favor (I can't believe I actually said that) and letting you expense all of your bee investment up front and not making you depreciate it over some arbitrary projected life span of a hive which incidentaly, I believe, is what must be done when purchasing a breeding cow.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Actually, it's a loss anyway that you look at it.


But only to you, not the IRS.

If you are incorporated, the corporation can deduct your salary(a pay expense for time worked), but you yourself would have to file your own forms, outside of the corporation.

Ditto what Jim wrote.


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## WLC

I don't think that providing a paper trail for losses is too onerous a task.


----------



## sqkcrk

How do you show the paper trail between the nuc colony, the fully grown colony, the dead colony and the next years lost revenue?

Only expenses can be deducted, not unrealized revenue. Otherwise one would count the honey left on a hive as income, but balance it off w/ unrealized sales income, the loss of not selling an asset.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Oh on a side note Farmer Fraizer was over last night. We did a quick business calculation. To make 48,000 a year here, you would have to work 500 hives for 50 weeks for 60 hrs a week (that was with the grossly overrated time of 6 hours/year/hive)...over head was about 60 bucks a hive, honey makes about 60 bucks a hive (so they cancel each other out) and then nucs make about 150 a hive. The over head did not include queen rearing supplies but that was kinda included in the nuc price. 
So, it can be done. 
Have fun, and best of wishes,
mike


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## WLC

There are a ton of rules and limitations in the tax laws. So, it's a good idea to keep track of any gains and losses in the value of the operation/company.

This is some of what you are up against:

"Loss of livestock. You cannot deduct as a loss the value of raised livestock that die if you deducted the cost of raising them as an expense. "

It's one or the other.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

WLC said:


> I don't think that providing a paper trail for losses is too onerous a task.


For your 2 hives, you are absolutely correct. for 2000, you are absolutely wrong. Quit interjecting stuff that may apply to some stock holding company but does not work in ag and specifically beekeeping.http://www.beesource.com/forums/misc.php?do=showrules


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## Acebird

WLC said:


> "Loss of livestock. You cannot deduct as a loss the value of raised livestock that die if you deducted the cost of raising them as an expense. "
> 
> It's one or the other.


If I understand what WLC is saying I could buy a bushel of corn plant it and at harvest time get 100 bushels of corn to sell. I don't know if this ratio is correct I am just using it for argument sake. But if a hurricane wiped out my crop before I got it harvested I could deduct what the value of the corn would be at that point if I wasn’t deducting the expenses as I went along.

My question is why would that make a difference and why would one way be better than another?
Here is a question for you WLC: Let’s say I set up an LLC for some business (bee business, whatever) and I am a one man show, OK maybe my wife answers the phone and does book keeping and the kids paint the equipment. Where is there an advantage to paying yourself or family members a salary when you will only have to pay taxes, SS, unemployment, and insurance on all that income and then have to pay more taxes on the profits of the business if you should be so lucky?

As a proprietorship I can just deduct any expenses I pay out and only pay taxes on the profits if there is any. The paperwork is far less which can amount to a sizable expense in itself.

My logic is that any expense you can eliminate is money in your pocket. A deduction is only a relief in taxation which is just a percentage of the expense not the whole expense.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Barry what was wrong with that post? Just quoting what you said! 
Ace, the way to go is a sole prop. but you are then at huge liability risk. I have the llc for that purpose solely. My dad owns it, none of us are employees, we are contract. 1099. 
mike


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## slickbrightspear

you pay yourself any profits as your salary that way the company does not make any profit it breaks even. The plus for a a bee keeping company being a LLC is that if anything happens like a stinging incident they can only come after the assets of the company not your personal assets.


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## WLC

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> For your 2 hives, you are absolutely correct. for 2000, you are absolutely wrong. Quit interjecting stuff that may apply to some stock holding company but does not work in ag and specifically beekeeping.http://www.beesource.com/forums/misc.php?do=showrules


I can take photos of 2,000 dead colonies in late winter/early spring. No problem.

Remember, you have to give your accountant the flexibility needed to use the best method possible for determining your tax liabilities.

That expenses vs losses quote above was for livestock (IRS).

Lest we forget, those kind of expenses and losses don't all have to be taken in the same year. They do have to be on the books before your accountant decides to apply them however.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Ya maybe 2000 in one spot, but what about one here, 2 there, 10 there, etc. 
So glad we have such good legal and tax advice on this forum.
mike


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## Acebird

slickbrightspear said:


> you pay yourself any profits as your salary that way the company does not make any profit it breaks even. The plus for a a bee keeping company being a LLC is that if anything happens like a stinging incident they can only come after the assets of the company not your personal assets.


If an LLC is created for the sole purpose of limiting liabilities it will not fly. There is a Latin term for it and all lawyers know how to go after you for such a scheme. If you do something negligent anyone can sue you personally even if you think you are protected by an LLC. I don't see you being anymore protected by an LLC if you are a single operator pulling in 20 g's, a hundred g's, maybe but I'm still not too sure then. If you have 15 people involved and multiple operations going there is an advantage because if one out of the 15 in negligent than the other 14 are spared personally. But one for one makes no sense at all to me.


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## waynesgarden

For anyone interested, SCORE has seminars regularly scheduled on both starting a new small business and writing a business plan. Go to score.org. There are a few scheduled here in the Portland ME area over the next month or so. There may be some in your areas. I'd feel a lot better receiving tax information and practical start-up advice for my business from a reputable source. 

By the way, I noticed in the IRS publication on Farm tax that gains and losses for cattle, horses and other mammals are calculated a lot differently than other non-mammal agricultural commodities.

Wayne


----------



## Acebird

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> Ace, the way to go is a sole prop. but you are then at huge liability risk. I have the llc for that purpose solely. My dad owns it, none of us are employees, we are contract. 1099.
> mike


If you are all separate independent contractors then you all must have separate businesses with tax id's. If sales tax is involved than you may be required to be an agent of the state to collect taxes, file forms and pay the taxes and penalties if late. You don't want to play a 1099 game unless it is legit or you could be in real hot water. That is something I wouldn't do.


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## slickbrightspear

when you are an employee of a company and say you wreck a truck are you personally responsible or is the company resoponsible.


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## feltze

:s Maybe we should start a tax law thread


----------



## Acebird

slickbrightspear said:


> when you are an employee of a company and say you wreck a truck are you personally responsible or is the company resoponsible.


You are personally responsible but lawyers go after money so they hog tie the company when it has a lot of assets. If you are the company, LLC or not, who do you think is going to pay, you with cash assets or the company with little cash? 
Talk to a lawyer that specializes in chasing ambulances not one that specializes in setting up LLC's if you want to know how they can get money from you in an accident.


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## WLC

Now you know why insurance should be part of a business plan.

The operation of an apiary with 100 hives includes millions of stinging insects. It would be, dare I say, prudent to carry insurance.


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## waynesgarden

feltze said:


> :s Maybe we should start a tax law thread


That would be a good idea. We could then ignore it and get back to the actual topic here rather than this taxing exercise in theoretical futility. For those who would rather read some actual, relevant tax information rather than how to parlay a deadout nuc into a Jamaican vacation, there is always IRS Publication 225, Farmer's Tax Guide.  

Anyone else getting the uneasy feeling our tax dollars are supporting someone's hobby hives?

Wayne


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## Beeboy01

Maybe someone needs to talk to a good tax lawyer to find out what would maximize the deductions for the operation instead of splitting hairs in this thread. There seems to be a lot of chopping with no chips flying in this discussion about running 100 hives. Just go out and do it, start the process and get some hands on bee keeping, it is the only way that you will find out if all this planning is really worth it and your plan will work. JMHO


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## WLC

It's called asset management and record keeping.

There's nothing unsavory or fantastic about it.


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## WLC

The worst thing that you can do is: start a business with millions of stinging insects,
that live in wooden boxes, and have a loss rate of 30%, without a solid business plan.

It's just a hunch.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Uh that is what the accountant said to do as we are all family. Most of the $$$ in my biz is lawn care related...
In texas you do not have to have tax ids...if you do its you SSN....most all of your laborers (i.e. lawn care, construction, farming, etc) are 1099.
Just fyi
mike


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## waynesgarden

Beeboy01 said:


> Just go out and do it, start the process and get some hands on bee keeping, it is the only way that you will find out if all this planning is really worth it and your plan will work. JMHO


Some of us are doing just that. And seeking advice and inspiration from those doing it successfully and ignoring those not doing much of anything but offering criticism and amateur, confusing and questionable tax advice.

Get bees, build equipment, make splits, overwinter nucs and get going. Despite what you may have read here, even without the magical LLC, none of your time, money or effort will be wasted and all of your equipment will have value, can be depreciated and will be replacable when the time comes, at least if you can believe what the IRS publications tell us. Doing nothing until you have someone's idea of what a business model must be in place is time needlessly wasted, never to be seen again and you will be a year behind for having followed the "don't spend a penny until..." advice.

Wayne


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## Beeboy01

You need to take a business plan, it doesn't matter which one you decide on and make the move from therotical to a actual hand on operation. All the planning is just preperation for seeing what will work in a real life situation. The bees don't really care about a solid business plan, after all they are bees and will do what they will despite what the bee keeper needs or wants. If you can jump into bee keeping cold, start 100 hives, make all the boxes, splits and get a profitable side line operation going in two years while working the hives only one day a week I will take my hat off to you. I see you are in New York state, I was bee keeping in Pennsylvania for 15 years and found that the weather can be a unforseen factor. A cold wet spring will increase your losses to well over 30%. Luck with it.


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## WLC

Uh huh. You could use a 'bootstrap' plan. Especially if you are
seriously undercapitalized.

Why buy wood? Just make equipment out of recycled wooden pallets. Work the wood with equipment that you got at a garage sale.

Yeah, that's it. That's 'the plan'.

However, I wouldn't call it a business plan. Frankly, it's 'naive' to all of the requirements for an operation that can be taken seriously as a business.


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## Beeboy01

Let me know how it works out. Like I said before "Luck with it", I'm off this thread


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## jim lyon

Beeboy01 said:


> You need to take a business plan, it doesn't matter which one you decide on and make the move from therotical to a actual hand on operation. All the planning is just preperation for seeing what will work in a real life situation.


Except it does make a difference what your plan is. The best advice I can give you folks (and one I will freely admit to using) is to find someone doing what you would like to do in your general part of the country and emulate them. Or more directly unashamedly copy them. None of these hypothetical financial plans really mean much until you have actual real life experience and the best way to be successful is to see what someone else has had success doing in the scale that you would like to operate. If you are in a good honey production area then concentrate on that, if you are in a good pollination area then design your plan for that, if you are in a good queen production area then queen and nuc production might be your best route to becoming economically viable. In some areas there is more than one avenue for success in other areas you may have to concentrate on only one thing. But if you make the decision to start to ship your bees around the country and trust others to do what is in your best interest with your bees you do so at considerable risk. Anyone that you are trusting to work your bees you must be very, very compatible with and have everything spelled out very clearly. Far better, in my opinion, to have your bees where you can see them and work them on a daily basis.


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## Keith Jarrett

jim lyon said:


> But if you make the decision to start to ship your bees around the country and trust others to do what is in your best interest with your bees you do so at considerable risk. Anyone that you are trusting to work your bees you must be very, very compatible with and have everything spelled out very clearly. .


And that's the DAM TRUTH! Very well said, Jimmy


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## sqkcrk

Start w/ what you already have and build your bee business slowly, concentrating on the parts of the business which you enjoy and are good at. And plan on a long lived operation. It may take a while before you realize much monetery profit. If lots of money soon is your goal, get into another line of business and keep bees at a hobby level.


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## waynesgarden

> However, I wouldn't call it a business plan. Frankly, it's 'naive' to all of the requirements for an operation that can be taken seriously as a business.



So, in 29 pages of dizzing distractions, we've come full circle back to the same ridiculous idea that if someone suggests one technique of doing something, than for some reason, it must be discredited because it is not much of a "complete business plan." I thought that lame nag had died many pages ago.

Well, to me at least, when someone floated the idea that a person with 100 hives should be considering forming two parallel corporations, one located in the north and one in the south in order to to sell their own hives back and forth to themselves, he has pretty much discredited himself as one whose ideas can be taken seriously. 

Yes, it was said that a business plan is necessary and no one is arguing it's not. Yes, it was said that a good tax advisor is essential, and again no one is arguing it's not. But the bulk of these 29 pages in which it was strongly and erroneously claimed that home-made equipment would have no value, couldn't be depreciated or replaced, (IRS publications demonstrate that it is not true,) the bizarre parallel corporation scheme, the false idea that personally-owned equipment can't be transferred to an LLC (again, IRS says that advice is simply wrong,) that somehow a dead-out nuc can be considered one of the "100 colonies" for purposes of declaring losses, all of this, while seemingly useless and a waste of time, has actually been slighty beneficial. It showed that one can take just a few minutes to go to actual source material such as IRS publications, and find real, not imagined, amateurish and just plain silly "information."

Did we need 29 pages of this junk to know that a business plan is a good idea? Wasn't that the topic of this thread? Mosherd1 deserved better for this thread.

Wayne


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## hpm08161947

Keith Jarrett said:


> And that's the DAM TRUTH! Very well said, Jimmy


I agree. There is a lot of dang good advice in Jim Lyons whole paragraph! Sideliner wannabees better read that one carefuly.


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## WLC

I think that there is a difference between being a beekeeper, being a business-person, and being a beekeeper and a business-person.

There are plenty of the first two, but that last category seems to be an endangered breed.

I can honestly see why a beekeeper would find that running a beekeeping operation as a business is not what they signed up for. Unfortunately, that's what it takes to run a successful business. You have to make tough decisions and take actions that you may find to be personally difficult to do.

For instance, no one likes to sue when a contractual agreement is broken, but it's bound to happen if you are successful.

So, maybe some of you don't want a business plan for 100 hives. You just want 100 hives.


----------



## Mosherd1

I really do appreciate everyone commenting on this thread. Some of the pages made me a bit dizzy but I am glad that I started this and glad that it got so many of us thinking. Just in the past few weeks I have had people contacting me for queens and nucs headed by the daughter of my VSH breeder. This is just from a quick post on craigslist. If nothing else, it is assuring to know that it is possible to own 100 hives, make a nice sideline income in most years, and still get the enjoyment of keeping bees without the stress of having to pay the mortgage from it. The beauty of keeping bees is that there are so many different directions to take it from an income perspective. Everything from plainhoney sales to queen cell production. What I have learned from this 29 page adventure was that as a sideline business, make it enjoyable and not forget why we got into bees in the first place. I do again thank everyones participation!


----------



## waynesgarden

WLC said:


> So, maybe some of you don't want a business plan for 100 hives. You just want 100 hives.


Frankly, I think most of us actually starting a beekeeping business are looking for truthful, factual, real-world information, not a business plan for 100 hives based on sketchy, silly or factually wrong ideas from someone with a couple of hives and totally un-qualified to be giving advice.

I, for one, want a business plan based on reality. I'd even accept advice dripping with condescension and steeped in arrogance if there was a hint of reality and knowledge behind it. 

Thanks again for the advice of the real-world beekeepers. Hopefully, we can have a thread about this topic sometime.

Wayne


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> So, maybe some of you don't want a business plan for 100 hives. You just want 100 hives.


I have been thru a cpl of sets of classes on building a business plan. Nothing you have suggested resembles a Business Plan. You've suggested some far out ideas of how to produce income and some fantastical ideas of how to cheat the Tax Man. But, even tho I have asked a number of times, I haven't seen a true business plan except from the Original Poster and some modifications suggested by oithers, but not you. So I don't know what you expect from the rest of us.

We can't follow you. You said yourself that if you knew how you wouldn't share the info anyway.


----------



## 10hive

If one of my sons or SILs were interested, I would have no problem setting out over four hundred hives, there's plenty of places around here to put them and I know where there are plenty of hives not in use that could be bought. the only problem here would be the heavy increase of black bears, the cost of ele fences could be a draw back.


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## waynesgarden

WLC said:


> I'm not sure how some of the other guys are qualified to give business related advice.
> 
> A guy who has to make his own equipment and a guy who took a class?
> ...


Just to clear up a point, I'm the guy that suggested that fabricating equipment would be included in my plan. Probably out of ignorance of how that is accomplished or perhaps because you simply do not read carefully, belittled the idea as being a rather poor business plan, as if it had actually been offered it as a complete business plan. It doesn't take a PhD to be able to read and comprehend on the most elementary level.

You then proceeded to make prolonged argument as to how this equipment could not be valued as a basis for depreciation. IRS says you are wrong. You argued that no purchases should be made until the all powerful LLC was firmly in place. To do otherwise is not doing it right. IRS says that you are wrong.

Having an accountant as a pal is not a qualification I look for in an advisor. On the internet, anyone can have advanced degrees, and some actually do, but the quality of the advice is what matters and no advanced degree, real or otherwise, makes factually wrong information correct.

So, yes, I'll take advice from the guy that builds equipment, that took a class, that is pollinating crops, that is focusing on queen-rearing, that is overwintering nucs, that is producing honey or any one of the many operations involved in beekeeping. The skills, the experience, the knowledge often learned the hard way is found there. For business and tax advice, I will search for knowlegable professionals and turn quickly away from any that propose multi-corporation schemes or other bizarre suggestions to manage my 100 or 200 or 600 hives. Experience and degrees are worthless if all they offer are schemes, incorrect "facts" and theories.

But then, again I am beating a dead horse.

SCORE, as I mentioned earlier, offers classes in starting a new business and in writing a business plan.

Wayne


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

jim lyon said:


> None of these hypothetical financial plans really mean much until you have *actual real life experience* and the best way to be successful is to see what someone else has had success doing in the scale that you would like to operate.....to have your bees where you can see them and work them on a *daily basis*.


Pretty much the point i was trying to make....unless you have a large operation and have been in the trenches then please dont give advice to this poor guy! I think this is the last thing he would have thought would happen to this thread. Really guys!
Mike


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## Acebird

WLC said:


> I think that there is a difference between being a beekeeper, being a business-person, and being a beekeeper and a business-person.
> 
> There are plenty of the first two, but that last category seems to be an endangered breed.


It is just like being in High School, if you vear away from the accepted club, click, gang or what ever they all want to beat you up.

It appears that mosherd1 is happy with the way the discussion went:



> I really do appreciate everyone commenting on this thread.
> I do again thank everyones participation!


So am I. The advantage of an internet forum is you can get input from all walks of life.

If I was seriously interested in starting a business with 100 hives I would start a topic "Why do most bee business fail in five years? and I would hope that WLC would comment. I don't agree with all his ideas. I don't understand all his ideas. But I certainly would want to hear all his ideas as opposed to all those that would be my direct competition. Apparently what is being done for new start up businesses now and in the recent past is not too successful in the long run.


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## sqkcrk

If you aren't going to start that Thread, let me ask, what makes you think they do? Does someone keep track of that statistic/


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## Acebird

Ask the elders of any bee club. They may refer to it as a saloon door. In and out.


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## hpm08161947

I doubt elders in a bee club would have any more idea about commercial beekeeping operations than the average hobby beek. At least that is what I have observed in the Bee Clubs in this area. BTW.. why don't you start that thread... it might be interesting.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Ask the elders of any bee club.


I thought you were refering to bee businesses, not bkprs who don't stick w/ it for more than a year or two. Though I am sure some who intend to make a business out of their interest in beekeeping don't make it that far.


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## WLC

Why do most bee businesses fail in 5 years?

The 30% loss rate is the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

If your only plan for dealing with that 30% loss rate is to make more bees, or buy more bees (both of which will cost you time and $), then you've limited yourself to one type of accounting model. Checks and deposits. That's why so many fail.

Don't take my word for it, talk to an accountant that can suggest using other kinds of accounting models (and of course, business plans) that are far more suited to a business which produces a product (bees in this case) with a 30% loss rate.

Keeping excellent records of all types of gains and losses is the key.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

I can see the headlines now "*Experts* say it is impossible to make a business out of beekeeping" or "*Experts* say that 30% loss is putting everybody of of business"
~Expert- 2 months or more of experience with bees. 

Oh, and who is screaming 30% loss that has actually had it? I lost 0% this winter...I took the loss in the fall. 
MIke


----------



## WLC

My experience is in running a successful business.

What's your explanation for why so many beekeeping operations are going under?

You've got an invertebrate with a very high rate of reproduction, but with a colony loss rate of about 30%. They comand a pretty good price per pound as well.

How could anyone possibly fail at it?

Hmmm?


----------



## WLC

By the way:

Congratulations to Kingfisher Apiaries on forming an LLC this March.

Now, if you consult with an accountant on the best accounting methods available to your type of business, and how you can best deal with productivity gains/losses, you'll understand what I've been trying to tell you all along.


----------



## sqkcrk

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> Oh, and who is screaming 30% loss that has actually had it? I lost 0% this winter...I took the loss in the fall.
> MIke


Mike,
The Apiary Inspectors of America report that on average 30% of all managed colonies are lost each year for the last 5 or 6 years. That's who. He right.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> What's your explanation for why so many beekeeping operations are going under?


How many are? What percentage? Are you talking commercial or sideline and hobby? 

I know there are commercial operations who have gone belly up during the last 5 or 6years, but of the commercial bkprs that I know, none have gone out of business due to colony mortality.


----------



## garytherock

Do you need one or two brood boxes and where is the cost for the 100 or 200 if you are two stories.....What about honey super costs. Do you have the necessary uncapping and extractor equipment. Do have the storage and space required to house everything? I have a dozen hives and I hope to make 500 a year........I dont do any wax sales....propolis or pollen ------

I would really like you to succeed and hit your estimates and then put your processes out for everyone to follow......


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## garytherock

you are an expert.........the first two years a hive does pretty well...... That third year you better be watchin it closely and be ready to intervene because a good chance something?????? will come up. QUEEN QUEEN QUEEN its all about that queen. I wish I had the time and experience to breed high quality queens.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

I use the accurall basis of accounting on quickbooks. My accountant is on speed dial and happens to own one of my splitting yards. We take good care of him...he is next in line after us for honey. LOL
Ok, youre right on the loss statistic, but what are you basing the belly up statistic from? Backyarders have about a 50% success rate, and most of your commercial operations are long standing, family operations that are doing ok to great. Both have some exceptions. Trying to follow what you are trying to say.
mike


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## grozzie2

I can't say how many got hit by overwinter losses, but, I do know this. The largest local apiary (700 + hives) was purchased recently by a smooth talking accountant with little knowledge of tending bees. Today the business is bankrupt and the owner is facing fraud and other tax related charges.


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## WLC

Mike:

What I'm saying is this. They're going under because their only accounting method is their bank account balance. They're really just hobbyists in the eyes of the IRS.

I think that your accountant can do alot more for you once your LLC assets are in place.


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## sqkcrk

Do we really want to talk about this? Then join the "Belly Up Bee Biznesses" Thread.


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## WLC

What would be interesting is how someone like Mike thinks that running an operation under an LLC will affect the way that he keeps bees.


----------



## sqkcrk

Not the subject of this Thread, is it?


----------



## WLC

Go back to the belly-up thread where you belong.


----------



## sqkcrk

Mosherd1 said:


> Based on 100 production hives:
> 
> 6000 lbs Honey X $3.00/lb Average = $18,000
> 
> Annual Expenses (not including equipment):
> 
> Jars/Labels- $3,900 (Assuming $.65/pound)
> 
> Gross Income: $25,550
> Expenses: $ 4,700
> Profit $20,850


These figures seem kinda high in some cases and kinda low in others. Have you sold honey at the price you base sales figures on? How about the other income producing items?

Your expense figures seem low to me. I imagine you will spend more on gas, tho, on your level, unless you keep detailed records of business use of your vehicle, I don't know how you will account for Mileage Expense. Tho it can be done.

Jars/caps and labels Expense for 6,000 lbs of honey? Let's say you put all of your honey in 1 lb jars, just to simplify things. That would be 500 cases of 1lb jars in 12 pack cases. Which, if bought by the pallet would cost you about $4.50 to $5.00 per case, plus shipping or cost of picking up two pallets of jars. Let's say $5.00/cs, which would come to $2500.00.

Caps? You'd need just under 3 boxes of caps at about $150.00 per box. That's $450.00 plus shipping or pickup cost.

Labels? Let's say one per jar. I use two. 6,000 labels at .15 each comes to $900.00.

$2500.00 plus $450.00 plus $900.00 equals $3850.00.

So, apparently you either priced it all out, which shows me you've really done your homework. Or you are a good guesser. I assume the former is the correct guess on my part.

So how far is it to Littleton, NH from where you live? McLure's Maple and Honey Products is where I suggest you get your jars and caps. Having them shipped pallet freight could be more convenient, if you have a way to get them off of a truck. Which would add to the cost per case. 

Or, maybe you only have room for 100 cases at a time. That's usually the cost per break point.

How did you come up w/ the rest of your figures? Experience or research? Or both?

I also think you need to include expenses for equipment for the Business Plan to mean as much as it should. Initial cost of equipment, annual expenses for new equipment, depreciation of items like supers, extractors, nuc boxes, ie stuff that has a long life span.

Other items like glass, labels, caps, smoker and hive tool, veils I count as Bus. Exp. in the year purchased. Even if a veil or suit or jacket might last years.

Do you have a Honey House or shed? What about an Office? More Bus. Expenses.


----------



## feltze

Thanks for comming back to the thread, I'm tired of whose accounting method is best. 

I would like to grow to possibly 100 hive operation and have been trying to pimp some ideas out there and am interested in the buried knowledge that is out there with you commercial guys. 

I have seen some interesting numbers on manhours to manage operations. What are the estimates for labor for about a 100 hive operation?


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## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> I doubt elders in a bee club would have any more idea about commercial beekeeping operations than the average hobby beek. At least that is what I have observed in the Bee Clubs in this area. BTW.. why don't you start that thread... it might be interesting.


It is the average hobby beek that gets the brain fart to start a business because he is fascinated with bees. That is a terrible business plan. People who enjoy owing and RUNNING a business should be the ones who start business not someone who enjoys bees. You don't succeed in any business just because you like one specific task. If it is a one man show like it usually is with most hobby beeks you better have a strong desire in sales because it isn't going to last too long without sales.

Why do you guys want me to start the thread? I have no interest. If you have interest, you start the thread.


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## jim lyon

I have seen some interesting numbers on manhours to manage operations. What are the estimates for labor for about a 100 hive operation?[/QUOTE]

Actually in my mind 100 hives is kind of an awkward level. It is going to take a great deal of your time yet you arent going to make a living at it. Quite often sideline operations like this don't get run properly because the person is still holding down a full time job elsewhere and doing beework on weekends and other free time. I was once told by the Minnesota state bee inspector that the biggest messes he has to deal with are sideline operations like this because folks underestimated the time it takes to operate them properly. At some point you are crossing over from being a fun hobby into drudgery. Certainly there are a lot of successful sideliners but if you don't really love the work things can get neglected pretty easily. 
While this varies greatly due to how intensely the hives are worked an old rule of thumb is 500 to 1000 hives is a full time job for one person. Operating much over 1000 per person can "spread you kind of thin". A certain amount of extra help is also needed during peak times, primarily the harvest season.


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## sqkcrk

feltze said:


> I have seen some interesting numbers on manhours to manage operations. What are the estimates for labor for about a 100 hive operation?


Good question What sorts of numbers have you heard?

I had a friend at Church last week ask me how many hours per week I spend packing honey? I have no idea. I just do what needs doing when it needs doing and don't pay attention to the clock. Unless The Daily Show is on. In which case I am usually in my chair by 7PM.

On average I probably spend 2 or three days a week bottling and labeling honey and one day per week delivering. On average.

The rest of the days, except Sunday, I spend doing something w/ the bees. Soon, I will have about 600 cols. once I use up these Queens.

So, I would think that 100 cols would maybe take a day per week, depending on the time of year. But, more likely, one would be doing something w/ them most evenings after work this time of year and perhaps thru the summer. Then, come Winter, not at all until March(?) maybe. Depending on where you live North or South.

NC I see. hpm... aka Herb could tell you better what you should expect where youy live. His Son, Matt, runs about 300, w/ some help from the Old Man. Herb is a Winer.  He makes Wine. One of thesre days they are going to realize that they can combine the two operations and make more money w/ Mead, I bet.

I hope that helps Eric. PM me if you wish.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> If it is a one man show like it usually is with most hobby beeks you better have a strong desire in sales because it isn't going to last too long without sales.
> 
> Why do you guys want me to start the thread? I have no interest. If you have interest, you start the thread.


A. Not necasarily so. Most honey is sold to Packers. Even the hobby beekeeper who has no desire to Market honey can sell honey to a Packer. Such as, here in NY, Wixson Honey Inc of Dundee, NY has and will buy honey by the bucket. They have for years. Good people to work w/.

B. Why? Because you made the statement and asked the question. But, since you didn't, I did. See "Belly Up Bee Bizinesses".

Why do people amke statements and then run away from them?


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## sqkcrk

jim lyon said:


> While this varies greatly due to how intensely the hives are worked an old rule of thumb is 500 to 1000 hives is a full time job for one person. Operating much over 1000 per person can "spread you kind of thin". A certain amount of extra help is also needed during peak times, primarily the harvest season.


Five or six hundred are plenty for me. I can't imagine 1,000. I'd need some available and dependable help to do much more than I do know.


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## Mosherd1

Sqkcrk-That is exactly what I was looking for when I started this thread. Thank you. I did price out the jars and labels. Right now I am selling my honey for $6.00/lb but there is no way that I will be able to get that much on 5000 or 6000 lbs. I will have to sell some gallons and perhaps even some wholesale so I was averaging the figures. The pollination figures I also researched. The nuc figures may even be a little low, maybe $130 each. I have a VSH breeder queen and have many people asking for nucs and queens I have had to turn most away because I just do not have enough equipment yet.


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## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> Five or six hundred are plenty for me. I can't imagine 1,000. I'd need some available and dependable help to do much more than I do know.


The big difference, Mark, is that you are spending a lot of your time packing, marketing and delivering. The extent of my marketing are the calls I make to large packers and the sampling that I send out.


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## waynesgarden

Another possible expense is bear protection. materials and labor to install and maintain. Necessary up here. I'm suddely into that sizable chunk of change for electric fencing, chargers, etc.

The more yards, the more expense. I could consolidate hives, but I'm interested now in trying fewer hives in more areas to get a handle on productivity of the sites and grow into the good ones, to establish the good will of the landowners and to not have to scramble to find yards should I lose one. 

Wayne


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## sqkcrk

jim lyon said:


> The big difference, Mark, is that you are spending a lot of your time packing, marketing and delivering.


Plus time spent on beesource.com. Is that an expense I could take?


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## sqkcrk

Mosherd1 said:


> Sqkcrk-That is exactly what I was looking for when I started this thread. Thank you. I did price out the jars and labels. Right now I am selling my honey for $6.00/lb but there is no way that I will be able to get that much on 5000 or 6000 lbs. I will have to sell some gallons and perhaps even some wholesale so I was averaging the figures. The pollination figures I also researched. The nuc figures may even be a little low, maybe $130 each. I have a VSH breeder queen and have many people asking for nucs and queens I have had to turn most away because I just do not have enough equipment yet.


You must be going to Farm Mkts and craft shows w/ your honey? $3.00 or better wholesale direct store delivery is doable. In your area I would think more like $4.00 or more. Plus the cost of jar, cap and label that is. I whlsle ones for $3.75 each, which is $45.00 per case.

If you have that kind of mkt for nucs and queens, you are in a good place. 

One thing you could do is really test the mkt by putting a rediculously high price on your nucs, queens and honey. This is a good time to do it, while you aren't dependent on the sales. You'll make more per pound or per nuc or per queen, but you may sell fewer, or is that less?, of each. Or you will still sell as much. Which means you didn't find the high point.

I always encourage bkprs who sell their hive products to sell it for as high a price as they can imagine, if not higher. It helps everyone. It helps to set the real price of honey where it should be. So what if you don't sell as much as you wish to when you wish to? You are profitting more per unit. And it's not like it is going to go bad, if stored properly.

I don't wish to live in CT, but, in some ways, I envy you. this could turn out to be something you will enjoy the rest of your life. I know people who put kids thru college w/ their bee business. It'll teach yourt kids alot more than you can imagine. Get them involved. Labeling can be more fun than getting stung.


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## Barry

Unless I missed it, the big factor no one is talking much about is TIME. You can figure all the numbers you want, but until you convert it to time, you have no idea what you are actually making per hour, which is a standard way of comparing job value. It sure sounds like a lot of beekeepers who make their living at beekeeping are putting in a lot of hours beyond 8 per day.


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## Barry

sqkcrk said:


> Plus time spent on beesource.com. Is that an expense I could take?


If you had to pay for access, you sure could. It would then be no different than me paying for subscriptions to Fine Home Building or Journal of Light Construction which become a business expense as it's work related. You could deduct the cost of ABJ and BC if you get those.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> A. Not necasarily so. Most honey is sold to Packers. Even the hobby beekeeper who has no desire to Market honey can sell honey to a Packer. Such as, here in NY, Wixson Honey Inc of Dundee, NY has and will buy honey by the bucket. They have for years. Good people to work w/.


You crack me up Mark. Great business plan. Give away your honey to a competitor. I bet that will last.


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## Tom G. Laury

Feel the love.


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> Great business plan. Give away your honey to a competitor.


As I understand the business, selling bulk honey to a packer is not the same as "giving it away to a competitor." Perhaps it may seem so to those with no actual knowledge of the industry.

It seems to be the business plan of a great many successful beekeepers.

Wayne


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## sqkcrk

Barry said:


> TIME. You can figure all the numbers you want, but until you convert it to time, you have no idea what you are actually making per hour, which is a standard way of comparing job value.


I warned about that previously. If you value your time by dollars per hour, working for yourself, doing something you enjoy, you will be disappointed.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> You crack me up Mark. Great business plan. Give away your honey to a competitor. I bet that will last.


You totally misunderstand what I said, unless you consider selling your honey at mkt price giving away your honey to a competitor.

If you aren't going to mkt your honey for as high a price as you can, what are you going to do w/ it.

And who are you going to buy Honey jars from? The guy developed the Honeybear owns the Patent on the Mold from which they are made, so you are subsidising Gamber Container/Gamber Honey Co/ Dutch Gold anyway. Not to mention the 5 lb Rounbd Glass Jar. They know where the money is. It's in the supplies.

I sometimes forget how long you have had bees. Stick w/ it and you will see I know from whence I speak.


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## sqkcrk

waynesgarden said:


> It seems to be the business plan of a great many successful beekeepers.
> 
> Wayne


Eyah. Most actually, I believe. Do what you do best. That's what I was taught.


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## Hartz

After reading this thread all along, here is my 2 cents about accounting. 1st off there is "tax accounting" and then there is "business accounting" and the 2 can be the same or different. ie, if you buy $20k of equipment this year, you might be able to take a 179 deduction of the whole expense and show it all this year. On the other hand, if you borrowed the money for the equip, your actual expense is the amount you paid on the loan ( ei $20k @ 7% for 5 years = $4752.00 -part being interest and the other part equity) That being said, the real question is are you making money or not? Accounting doesn't change the fact that you are making money or not, its just a way of looking at the profit or loss.
On another note... as for bottling honey, I wonder how many more hives could you run if you wholesaled your honey as opposed to retailing it? Which is the more profitable enterprise? I don't know, I'm just wondering...

Hartz


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> I don't wish to live in CT, but, in some ways, I envy you. this could turn out to be something you will enjoy the rest of your life. I know people who put kids thru college w/ their bee business. It'll teach yourt kids alot more than you can imagine. Get them involved. Labeling can be more fun than getting stung.


I do not want to live there either... but I do remember living in Mass. Close to CT.... what a great market. Plenty of people who enjoy good food and good honey and are willing to pay for it. Guess it is all those University towns. If you can make money anywhere it probably is southern new england. Ar least IMHO.


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## hpm08161947

Barry said:


> Unless I missed it, the big factor no one is talking much about is TIME. You can figure all the numbers you want, but until you convert it to time, you have no idea what you are actually making per hour,


I agree. But in our small operation this is a difficult thing to do. Some times (pollination) we can work almost around the clock. Other times things can be very regular - like now.... get supers, spin honey, take supers back.... repeat. Then there can be slow paced days of driving around and medicating or just inspecting bees. I think we need to keep track (log it) of our work times for about a year to get a good idea. But that is just our operation... others will vary - as everything in beekeeping seems to.


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## Acebird

waynesgarden said:


> As I understand the business, selling bulk honey to a packer is not the same as "giving it away to a competitor." Perhaps it may seem so to those with no actual knowledge of the industry.
> 
> It seems to be the business plan of a great many successful beekeepers.
> 
> Wayne


If they were a packer and not a producer they wouldn't be in competition.
I think everyone would generally agree that a 100 hive operation is a small guy. If you can't sell what you produce with 100 hives then maybe you should just stay in it as a hobby and do what you like to do.

Being small you could probably hype it up and package in is small bottles like decorative perfume size bottles and maybe make 20 per pound. Sell it with an e-bay storefront globally.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> You crack me up Mark. Great business plan. Give away your honey to a competitor. I bet that will last.


Gawd Acebird - YOU crack me up!! What is it that you have got - Hutzpah??? I would never have the nerve to comment so authoritatively on something that I knew so little!


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## sqkcrk

Now Herb. Let's be a little more compassionate w/ Acebird. He's new, ya know. Give him time. Like your wine. It gets better w/ age. We hope.


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> If they were a packer and not a producer they wouldn't be in competition.


Duh, as they say. So what was there a purpose to your shot at Mark, or were you just unaware of the subject of his post? 



Acebird said:


> If you can't sell what you produce with 100 hives then maybe you should just stay in it as a hobby and do what you like to do.


What makes you think that choosing to wholesale the honey, rather than buy bottles, labels, bottling equipment, and spend time bottling and sitting at a farmer's market or farm stand or driving around the countryside looking for a market is the same as not being able to sell it? It is simply another marketing option. I have a feel for the time involved in retailing it, having done it years ago with a lot less than 100 hives. Wholesaling it can be a good move, even for a sideliner. It certainly is not a sign of not being able to sell it, as you seem to believe.




Acebird said:


> Being small you could probably hype it up and package in is small bottles like decorative perfume size bottles and maybe make 20 per pound. Sell it with an e-bay storefront globally.


That is one marketing idea. Not one that appeals to me. I prefer to let anything I sell stand on its own merits. But someone might find it helpful. I do not know anyone actually doing it.


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## WLC

Some might think that it's a better use of time and resources to feed the honey back to the bees and focus on producing nucs, packages, and queens. There's probably alot more money in them as well.

I personally am not drawn to the idea of putting together something like a honeyhouse that requires great care. Regs on honey aren't exactly becoming more liberal either if I'm not mistaken.


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## waynesgarden

hpm08161947 said:


> I would never have the nerve to comment so authoritatively on something that I knew so little!


You should hear me go on and on at the forums at brainsurgery.com! 

Wayne


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Some might think that it's a better use of time and resources to feed the honey back to the bees ...


If you are reefering to harvested honey, that would be wasted effort. One should have planned better and left it on the hives.


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> Some might think that it's a better use of time and resources to feed the honey back to the bees and focus on producing nucs, packages, and queens.


Pretty expensive Bee Feed. Hmm... wonder if anyone actually does this on a commercial scale? Possible I guess, but the price of HFCS is only about 1/5 of an equivalent amount of bulk sold honey.


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## Mosherd1

How much is bulk honey being sold for?


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## hpm08161947

We just sold our spring honey to a small packer for $2.00 per pound.


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## Mosherd1

Thats more than I was anticipating. Could be a good alternative if you have 100 hives and do not have time to retail 100% of your crop.


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## hpm08161947

Mosherd1 said:


> Thats more than I was anticipating.


In your area, in a reasonable year you could expect 3 tons of honey. That would be 4000 pint jars. A lot to retail - unless you are really into it - and if you are then more power to you. I would be willing to bet there is some small artisan packer between Hartford and Boston paying an even better price for "Local" honey. You just have to find them or more likely they will find you.


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## feltze

Sqkcrk, 



PHP:


Good question What sorts of numbers have you heard?

The numbers I have heard, have been the all encoumpassing 60-80 hour weeks in a company that no one quantifies the size or profit margins. There is nothing left but to suppose they are large commercial operators who are busy with the trucking, sales, management of employees, and of couse in charge of the clean up at the end of the day. 

As one of the incompetants, :lookout: With my burdensome 12 colonies I am only spending an hour a week to check on things, one day for honey collection and extraction. 3 days earmarked for treatments in the spring and again in the fall. A day to do splits and daily visits to beesource for the educational benefit. 

HPM, If you guys need some help down in bladen co. Drop me a line and I'll come down if I'm not commited to something else and lend a hand, veil and hive tool in hand. Camper if you want to keep me for a few days. (education can be earned)


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## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> In your area, in a reasonable year you could expect 3 tons of honey. That would be 4000 pint jars. A lot to retail - unless you are really into it - and if you are then more power to you. I would be willing to bet there is some small artisan packer between Hartford and Boston paying an even better price for "Local" honey. You just have to find them or more likely they will find you.


Somehow you can justify a hundred hive operation that takes in $12000 gross? You really got to love bees to do that.
Couldn't you work for MC-D's for twice that and half the number of hours and never get stung?


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> Somehow you can justify a hundred hive operation that takes in $12000 gross?


We are talking about a sideline right? And a fairly small siideline at that. $12000 extra dollars for a few hours after works could be helpful to many people. Plus, who says he has to sell it all bulk. Perhaps he only sells only 32 buckets (1 ton) - small packers will jump on that. Let him retail the rest... it's up to his talents and connections. Now think Acebird.... how much time do you think it takes to retail 4000 1 pint jars? You gotta love that much customer interaction and indeed some do. For my part - I just as soon get stung.


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## WLC

Why would anyone drop $10 K + in year one, with the hopes of grossing $12 K of honey, with a real chance that the nectar might not flow?

I don't see honey production as a good business objective for an operation in its first year.

You're fighting both a 30% colony loss rate and a significant chance that the honey crop will fail.

You can always figure in the price of feed when you're selling bees if there's a dearth.

Honey production is just too risky as a first year business objective.


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> Why would anyone drop $10 K + in year one, with the hopes of grossing $12 K of honey, with a real chance that the nectar might not flow?


I agree. But who said that honey was to be the only product of this 100 hive operation??

In our operation honey is 3rd in terms of income generated. Pollination is first with Nucs/packages being second. I probably should include raw wax as fourth.


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## WLC

Thanks for the rundown hpm.

That kind of info is helpful to someone wanting to expand.

Where do queens fit in?


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## waynesgarden

Acebird said:


> Couldn't you work for MC-D's for twice that and half the number of hours and never get stung?


I'll wait until I'm laid off from my engineering job and all I have is a hive or two hanging on before I'd get that desperate.

Meanwhile, the topic of this thread is still a business plan for 100 hives, not how to make poverty wages with no future doing something you hate. 

Glad to see you've announced your business plan, though. 

Wayne


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## hpm08161947

Queens??

They could fit into a 100 hive operation. They just don't fit in here. It seems to me that it takes a special person with kind of a special focus to breed quality queens. It just not talents that we possess. Although I would have to concede that it is extremely interesting and I do like to talk to skilled queen breeder from time to time. They have knowledge that one can only learn by doing... at least IMO.


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## Mosherd1

In my "outline" I will not call it a business plan since my accountant, lawyer, 3rd grade teacher and priest have not all signed off on it and the tax, legal, and religious implications from it I included many different lines of income. Do you guys think it is too diversified and unrealistic to realize income from all these sources? Or is this type of diversification common in a sideline operation?

6000 lbs Honey X $3.00/lb Average = $18,000, Queen Production= 50 Queens X $25 = $1,250, Queen Cell Production = 50 Cells X $6.00 = $300, Virgin Queen Production = 50 Virgins X $12 = $600, 50 Hives For Pollination = $60 X 50 Hives = $3,000
Nuc production= 20 X $120= $2,400


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## hpm08161947

Mosherd1 said:


> Do you guys think it is too diversified and unrealistic to realize income from all these sources? Or is this type of diversification common in a sideline operation?


IMO you are too heavy on the queen production. My suspicion is that it will take too much time for the $2000 that you are predicting to get from it. But (there is always a but) if you are good at it.... it could definitely be your niche!

I am somewhat familiar with the Conn. Valley having spent a decade of my young life there. So I know there is a great deal of Agriculture there. How much is pollination dependent might be surprising. My guess is that you could put them all out for pollination. But then again I have never tried to do it there.  Nucs should be $6000. So yes.. I do think you are spreading yourself unrealistically thin with that list of income producers. I think you can gross $18000 in honey (bulk and retail), $6000 in Polli, $6000 in nucs. So a $30000 gross business for a 100 hive sideliner. Will you do that the first year.... naw... not a chance! But you will soon.


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## WLC

Mosherd:

My advice would be: focus on 1 thing that you can do the most efficiently and profitably, with the least risk, and then work on diversifying.

However, since you likely already have a market for nucs and queens (as you have said before), and you have an interest in them, they seem to complement each other well in terms of increasing productivity and profitability.

Feed the frames of honey to your bees initially since it can help to keep costs and expenses down (no need for honey related equipment and expenses, reduced feed expenses).

When your nucs and queens can pay for expanding and diversifying your operations, then you can decide if you can handle it.

You can buy your way in for starters, but then it has to pay for itself before you can move on.


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## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> IMO you are too heavy on the queen production. My suspicion is that it will take too much time for the $2000 that you are predicting to get from it. But (there is always a but) if you are good at it.... it could definitely be your niche!
> 
> I am somewhat familiar with the Conn. Valley having spent a decade of my young life there. So I know there is a great deal of Agriculture there. How much is pollination dependent might be surprising. My guess is that you could put them all out for pollination. But then again I have never tried to do it there. Nucs should be $6000. So yes.. I do think you are spreading yourself unrealistically thin with that list of income producers. I think you can gross $18000 in honey (bulk and retail), $6000 in Polli, $6000 in nucs. So a $30000 gross business for a 100 hive sideliner. Will you do that the first year.... naw... not a chance! But you will soon.


Ok, Make it a five year plan. List all the expenses including start up cost, total sales, and total man hours for this five year plan. I know you are gung ho so the bottom line should be in the black. Then everyone that has done it can chime in on whether you are low or high on your estimate of this side line business.

I started a snow plowing business three years ago as a side line business and it has taken me to this year to get into the black. Last year it was 225 hours of driving in circles. It finally paid off. You need to know a little to drive a truck without damaging buildings but it isn't like having a diversified bee business and hoping for luck to be with you.


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> Mosherd:
> 
> 
> Feed the frames of honey to your bees initially since it can help to keep costs and expenses down (no need for honey related equipment and expenses, reduced feed expenses).


You know - in a reasonable year he is going to have to purchase a fair number of extra honey supers to keep all that honey sitting on the hive. The bees will produce a good bit more honey than they can consume. 

I am not sure the outlay for extraction equipment for 100 hives would be that onerous. A 20 frame extractor should be sufficient for 100 hives and should be obtainable for about $1500 (depreciable too). 100 extra supers and frames are gonna cost at least that.


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## WLC

hpm:

He's starting with 10 hives. He could get to the 50-100 deep (splits/nucs) mark in short order.
I think that using that honey for increases would fit in well with a 'bootstrap' plan.

I think that he would be in striking distance of a number of his goals with a less expensive and more timely approach.

August is just around the corner.


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## Barry

The personal remarks and sarcasm in this thread need to stop.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Barry, I said that about 200 posts back. Hope everyone listens this time.
mike


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## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> hpm:
> 
> 
> I think that using that honey for increases would fit in well with a 'bootstrap' plan.


I would still contend that it would be much more expensive tha feeding HFCS. A 275 gal tote around here is about $700. That is about .21 per pound. It is not a direct replacement for honey but it is close. Now if he is going to be TF, that is another matter all together. Don't believe they can put HFCS into a hive.


Another reason for selling his honey now is that he needs to start developing markets.


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## sqkcrk

Mosherd1 said:


> Could be a good alternative if you have 100 hives and do not have time to retail 100% of your crop.


Yes, it could be and is for most commercial bkprs. But, remember, quick money is cheap money. If you want to or need to sell it when you want to, you won't necassarily get as much as you could another time or another way. But you have to decide what fits your life style and business plan. Selling to a packer is a gauranteed sale and often a check upon delivery.

Get at least part of your money upon delivery and be sure of who you are dealing w/.


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## sqkcrk

Mosherd1 said:


> Do you guys think it is too diversified and unrealistic to realize income from all these sources? Or is this type of diversification common in a sideline operation?


I don't see why you shouldn't give all of these a try. Maybe not in the first year(s), but, as you get established and more skillful/organized. You may find that some areas are more profitable than others. More to your liking too.

I think you should be talking to deknow (Dean Stiglitz). He could be your bulk honey buyer. It's worth a try.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Ok, Make it a five year plan. List all the expenses including start up cost, total sales, and total man hours for this five year plan.


That's alot of work. I don't see why anyone would do all that work for free. Especially for some one w/, what, two hives? I'm not trying to insult you, but you don't know what you are asking for and how much work it would take to produce what you are asking for.


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## WLC

hpm:

Yes, hfcs is far more economical. But, I've heard that it's better to use frames of honey when overwintering and increasing bees. That $700 for a 275 gal tote is a useful # to have.

My thoughts are these: his ten hives could help him to learn just how productive they can be in his area when they are 'pushed'. He's going to need to have a good handle on those numbers anyhow.

If he can get part of the way to his goal, while minimizing out of pocket expenses, that would be great.


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## sqkcrk

Got some good press today. Color Photo above the fold and about 18 or 20 column inches in the local weekly free paper. I could hardly afford such an Advertisement. I don't know how to figure that into a Business Plan.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> That's alot of work. I don't see why anyone would do all that work for free. Especially for some one w/, what, two hives? I'm not trying to insult you, but you don't know what you are asking for and how much work it would take to produce what you are asking for.


Well I think I know what I am asking for. I know you have stated that you don't keep track of your time but if you don't, how do you know if you are making 10 per hour or 50 cents? I guess I made an assumption that you would do normal book keeping as a standard task of running a business. I do mine in a spread sheet format so collecting the data is not labor intensive. The book keeping might be especially if you are not disciplined to do it.


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## sqkcrk

Show me someone who knows how much they make per hour and I will show you someone who isn't a Commercial Bkpr.

At the end of the year, if the Profit or Loss from Farming Statement shows a Profit, all bills were paid, everybody got fed etc, etc, what difference does it make how much per hour one made?


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> I started a snow plowing business three years ago as a side line business and it has taken me to this year to get into the black. Last year it was 225 hours of driving in circles.


So, how much did you profit last year? How many hours did you work the previous two years? Factor all of the hours for three years against the profit made in the third year and tell us how much you made per hour. Did you do better than minumum wage? Was it worth it? Gonna do it again this year?


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Show me someone who knows how much they make per hour and I will show you someone who isn't a Commercial Bkpr.


A guy who thinks like that is most likely a guy who has spent most of his life working in a plant. Not one who is doing what he wants to do. Who said... If you do what you want to do you will never work a day in your life. Or something like that.


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## Tom G. Laury

Mosherd, whatever business plan you come up with, cut your projected income in half and double the anticipated expenses. That will bring you one step closer to reality.


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## sqkcrk

Probably a well off philosophical individual, like Thoreau or Whitman.  Not that there isn't some truth to the saying.

Oh, yeah, the only bkprs I know of who know how much they make per hour are employees, not owners. tho I am sure some bkprs pay themselves a salary from the business. And some might say it is so much per hour. But they probably don't pay themselves overtime.

Depending on the bkprs I work for and the benefits, like room and board, I get more from some and less from others. Plus the freedom to choose whether to work for them or not.


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## waynesgarden

I know to the penny what I will make per year from my salaried engineering job. Do I know what I make hourly there? No, and I don't want to know. Given that salary means you are a slave to the company and your hours are their hours, the dollars per hour figure would only depress me.

I do know the costs of making it though. Long hours away from home, followed by a quick dinner and trying to get another hour or so of day-job work done at home before sleeping. And at least part of each weekend. Not to mention having to move five and a half hours away from the family to get the work.

Give me something to do that I love that pays even half or less and lets me get home with my family more than once every month or two and I'll be a happy beekeeper. That is what I'm working towards, one split, one nuc and one pound of honey at a time.

Tonight I got home early and knocked together about 60 more frames to finish filling the second brood boxes of the 20 new hives. Now a quick glass of vino and then about another hour or two of design work to be ready for a meeting in the morning. Good night.

Wayne


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## Barry

sqkcrk said:


> what difference does it make how much per hour one made?


Well, it's a way of knowing the ratio of work:income. Another way to figure it is to take your year end return profit and divide by how many hours you worked that year. If I'm only going to make $10 an hour, that equates to 5,000 hours I'll need to work for $50,000 a year. You'll need to work 13.5 hour days, 365 days a year. At that rate, I'll keep my remodeling business.


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## Barry

waynesgarden said:


> I do know the costs of making it though. Long hours away from home, followed by a quick dinner and trying to get another hour or so of day-job work done at home before sleeping. And at least part of each weekend. Not to mention having to move five and a half hours away from the family to get the work.


Sounds just like making a living at beekeeping! Only difference is you hate the one job and think you'll love the other. I think it's foolish to not know the time commitment needed to run a beekeeping business. I know a commercial beekeeper that makes a living, but it sure isn't the kind of living I'd want. There is more to life than work ... work... and more work.


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## Hokie Bee Daddy

:thumbsup:Waynesgarden.

You said it all. Good luck.


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## hpm08161947

Barry said:


> There is more to life than work ... work... and more work.


So very true! If you consider it work, work, and more work, then commercial beekeeping is not for you. Some do - some do not. That may well be the first question to get a grip on before setting down to do that business plan.


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## Barry

If it's just "you", work all you want. If there is a wife and/or kids in the picture, there is more to consider. They may see it as time not spent at home. And part of that business plan has to be a realistic understanding of the time required to give to the business of beekeeping.


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## WLC

Objectively, it's a matter of how productive you are.

Subjectively: there are individuals who don't merely describe themselves by what they do, it truly is who they are.

However, I don't think that's what the original poster wants to become. He just wants a sideline.


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## waynesgarden

Barry;670362I said:


> think it's foolish to not know the time commitment needed to run a beekeeping business...... There is more to life than work ... work... and more work.


You're absolutely right, Barry, and I have no argument with that. That's the best part of starting out slowly, with incremental growth. One knows almost instantly when they've reached their labor/time capacity. With a couple hives, the work was in not bothering them too much. With 25 hives, it could be good for most of a days work if I fuss over each hive and sit on the fender of the trailer and watch them fly for a spell, though it still doesn't feel like much work. Come next spring, if half the nucs survive, most of the production hives survive, the new packages arrive and the creek don't rise, I could be pushing the hundred hive mark and then I'll take another measure of the time commitment. Even the time spent in the shop making equipment doesn't feel like too much work yet, (as long as I keep the days short.)

I have the luxury of not needing bee-related income now as I grow and learn and, if necessary, I could cut back some. In the not too distant future, I'll hopefully be able to live off freelance work again and again hopefully, my bees. Then it's IRAs, 401ks and SS and I'll give my bees to my daughter.

Wayne


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## John V

"The E Myth" by: Micheal E. Gerber, is a good book to read for those thinking of starting a business or merging into one. It shines a light on why most business's fail. Mainly because most people are good at what they do "The Technician", but aren't so good at being an "Entreprenuer", or a "Manager". Read the book and it will help you understand what YOU want to be and whether or not it would benifit you to pursue it.

Later, John


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## Acebird

Tom G. Laury said:


> Mosherd, whatever business plan you come up with, cut your projected income in half and double the anticipated expenses. That will bring you one step closer to reality.


:thumbsup: This is the advice I was hoping to draw out. Reality.

Many people like doing things as a hobby and try to turn it into a business and find out that the two are quite different. You have to like owning and running a business or it won't fly. In most cases it doesn't matter what the business is.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> So, how much did you profit last year? How many hours did you work the previous two years? Factor all of the hours for three years against the profit made in the third year and tell us how much you made per hour. Did you do better than minumum wage? Was it worth it? Gonna do it again this year?


I am not going to give you the numbers because they are personal. I took a big loss the first year, a small loss the second year and now I am in the black. I have all the numbers though and at this point the average is still negative for hourly wages. It took another job to support this venture. On the plus side though I have some toys that can be used for personal use. Most of the equipment in a bee operation has no other use and when you are small the equipment will set idle more than it will be used. If you grow big the chances are the equipment is not adequate and will have to be replaced while the old equipment sets idle or is sold off at a loss.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> I am not going to give you the numbers because they are personal.


You ask for personal information, and alot of it, but aren't willing to give us a little? Not even how much per hour you made? How about how much per hour do you charge?

I bet over 90% of the stuff you have sits idle most of the time, so what if an extractor only gets used a small percentage of a year?


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## Capricorn

sqkcrk said:


> Got some good press today. Color Photo above the fold and about 18 or 20 column inches in the local weekly free paper. I could hardly afford such an Advertisement. I don't know how to figure that into a Business Plan.


Mark, you'd want to put in the Marketing section. The cost to you would be your time. In a plan you might state that you plan to spend 3 hours a week actively marketing yourself and your product and/or services. Then you might outline what ways you would market yourself. My wife and I started a chocolate company as an LLC recently. To promote ourselves we had a Mother's day give away. My wife spent about 2-3 hours preparing a press release about it, then sending that to about 20 local media outlets. One news crew showed up with cameras. A good payoff for the 2-3 hours of work really.

This has been an interesting thread to say the least. 

It's too bad there isn't a wiki somewhere where folks that wanted to could put together a 100 hive business plan. I think there would be a lot of interest in it.


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## feltze

Acebird said:


> I am not going to give you the numbers because they are personal. I took a big loss the first year, a small loss the second year and now I am in the black....the average is still negative for hourly wages


Great, another ambigious quote on what it takes to run a 100 hive operation! Personally I don't care what anyones bottom line is, I could make estimates based on some generalities, but how many hours maintaining how many hives? What were the main products produced ie orientation of the business Nucs/Packages/Honey/Queens/Pollenation? Where do you spent those negative hourly wages? 

I am getting a little frustrated trying to understand the "business aspect" when no one is making any money, and obviously there are no commercial Beeks who are solvent. 

OK that's out of line, I know it isn't true.


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## Acebird

Eric, I think you missed something. My business is snow removal not bee keeping.


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## Capricorn

Acebird said:


> If you do an LLC I don't believe you can do that. If you show a loss it is too bad.


That's not accurate. We run a Property Rental company as an LLC. Business losses are not 1 to 1 for reducing taxes, and they are capped at a certain amount, but they do pass through and you can claim a loss.


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## WLC

That's right Capricorn. I've tried to tell them this over and over again.

That pass through of losses is what can give you the justification to come up with a plan for 100 hives, especially if you already have a regular job.

How much you could keep putting in would depend on your tax liability.

That alone would make you a 'tough out'.


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## feltze

Ace, I thought we were talking about beekeeping plan, My bad, 


One thing I have learned in the small business plan is that people don't understand the various tiers of business. 

Per "eric's world of business"

In a *hobby business* people often do something they love with high amounts of labor, and low overhead in equipment or facilities, and no employees or payroll. Income is usually equated to "profit". Prices are often high on the retail, creating a false sence of high profit margins. Profits are made, it is a business for tax purposes, keep records to stay legal or more likely don't declare any profit or loss and consider it a wash for taxes at the end of the year. 

A higher tier of business, let's call it the "*sideliner*" there is often greater investments in equipment and facilities but not enough necessarily to automate any particular task. There isn't normally payrole or employees the exception may be occasional day labor (1099 style). Primary sales are most likely "direct marketed" so full retail can be expected keeping profit margins up. Definitely a business for tax purposes both for profits and expences. To grow larger would require employees and or automation. 

Continuing up the ladder is the "*comercial operations*" Employees are required, commercial insurance, comercial trucking (possibility) expences rise dramatically as commercial grade material & handling equipment is required, certifications/permits/business licences become relevant or required. Stepping to commercial operations can be a significant setback financially and require a good business sense and understanding of the target markets, advertising, and recordkeeping. The commercial operator needs to rely on greater volume rather than greater markup as profit margins are often degraded by wholesale or jobber price reductions for bulk sales. The commercial operator is truely in financial competetion with other commercial operators to compete for contracts or sales. 

I'd say this is a graduate course from the school of hard knocks, but take it as you may. I've worked financials and management on multi-million dollar government contracts, and I've maintained a "sideline" sawmill operation which has ventured to the commercial level and back.


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## Barry

Acebird said:


> My business is snow removal not bee keeping.


Yea, so we shouldn't be discussing that in a bee forum.


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## WLC

The same benefits that one gets when operating a business under an LLC apply to a sideline beekeeping business operating under an LLC.

You could used the generic term 'making widgets in an LLC', and it would still make sense.

If you have $10K+ in beekeeping assets/expenses, and $10K+ in beekeeping related gross income, then it would be a mistake not to use a business entity like an LLC.

It's a matter of applying what the law and tax code allow to justify your beekeeping business.

I'd say that keeping significantly fewer than 100 hives would justify operating under an LLC. Beekeeping is certainly very pricey.


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## Roland

A few points overlooked:

What is the quality of the honey from his location. There is some honey(it comes in green barrels) that you could not pay me to eat. Is there a floral source that is unique to this location that would sell for an above average price? Ask Sheri about our Basswood honey.

Does the OP have the skills to make Comb honey? Would the close urban market support sales?

What are the sales abilities of the OP? IF they are like me, socially inept, wholesaling honey to a packer might be the best route.

A commercial operation does not need hired help if all of the workers are members of the LLC.

ALL of this is smoke in the wind when the OP gets CCD. Then he had better have done his homework. How do the numbers look when you figure 90 percent losses every year, and no honey production?

Crazy Roland


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## odfrank

[QUOTE IF they are like me, socially inept[/QUOTE]

What, I'm not the only socially inept beekeeper?


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## Acebird

> Per "eric's world of business"


I think you pretty well hit the nail on the head.:thumbsup:


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