# 10 gallons of 22% water content honey from queenless hives



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i'm desperate for help.

there has already been slight fermentation in the comb in the open cells, and after extracting today and mixing the capped and uncapped honey my concern is that @ 22% the fermentation will start up again.

my only experience with home brewing is that i ran a few 5 gallon carboys several years ago making pear cyser with leftover pears from the farm and using honey for sugar.

the cyser didn't turn out great and had a slight vinegar taste to it. not sure if it was the pears, the honey, or the wild yeasts, (the pear juice was already fermenting when i started).

i don't have freezer space big enough to store the 5 gallon buckets of honey.

i have three 5 gallon carboys and most of the other stuff left, but i think i will have to make a run to the home brewing store anyway.

i am wondering if i should get a yeast that kills the wild yeast, and would be very grateful for any other advice on how to go about this.

many thanks.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i am also looking for a buyer for this honey if i can find one. any thoughts on what a fair market value for honey like this would be?


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## Knoxville1 (8 mo ago)

Regarding fermentation. If you plan to make some type of mead and want to kill the wild yeast and use a commercial yeast, look up Campden tablets. These are potassium metabisulphate. They are mixed in your batch one day to shock or stun the wild yeast. It dissipates after 24 hours at which point you can inoculate with your purchased yeast. The tablets can be purchased at any home brew establishment.


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## ZooBee (Dec 11, 2020)

2 ways to go I think.
1) ferment it with the wild yeast. These days farmhouse ale is all the rage and its a bit tart , I love it
2) Pasteurize the honey with campden tabs as K above suggests or just almost boil it for mead with some fruit .
Fair market? Bulk honey is cheap unfortunately so I can't give you advice there. What is it worth to you and to your buyer?
hth
Sj


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Knoxville1 said:


> Regarding fermentation. If you plan to make some type of mead and want to kill the wild yeast and use a commercial yeast, look up Campden tablets.


i'm already breathing easier k1, i didn't know there was such a solution. many thanks.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ZooBee said:


> ferment it with the wild yeast.


many thanks zb.

with so much honey and not enough carboys i'm going to have to do both unless i can sell it.

I am seriously thinking about trying some with adding nothing at all except water. what's the most honey/water ratio do you think i could get by with?

later on tonite i am going to go back into the archives and read up some of those threads.

i sent an email pitch to a meadery located 45 miles away to see if they might want to do something with it.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

dang, everybody is out of campden. 

zb, how long will it sit after bringing it to almost boil before it starts fermenting again? what type of fruit would you consider and does the fruit slow boil with the honey or is the fruit added to the honey after the slow boil?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

gonna start here:









For beginners: an introduction to meadmaking


By Ben Brewcat Ah, mead. Just as honey is one of nature's truly remarkable substances, so is its fermented product: mead. Mead is thought to be the oldest beverage fermented by humankind, and it makes sense; all honey needs to become mead is dilution with water and some yeast, which is...




www.beesource.com


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

I think if you get it hot (above 160F) and seal it while it is still hot it will kill the yeast and it will not start fermenting again unless yeast is reintroduced.










edit: this experiment is what that makes me say if you kill everything by getting it hot, it should not come back in a sealed container https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Pasteur#Spontaneous_generation


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

awesome nugget ef! many thanks.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i was able to dig out two 5 gram packs of lalvin ec-1118 and three 5 gram packs of lalvin 71b-1122. i also have some b-brite cleanser (sodium percarbonate), and some yeast energizer. i couldn't find my carboy brush.

do any of these items go bad after 6 or 7 years?


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## Knoxville1 (8 mo ago)

I would say the yeast is way out of date.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Knoxville1 said:


> I would say the yeast is way out of date.


I would use it anyway, probably should pitch twice the usually amount.

If fermentation doesn't start, have a plan b.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks for the replies everyone.

i also found and blew the dust of a hydrometer and test stand. 

i see now my question about how much honey to use in the recipe will be determined to some degree by the hydrometer readings of the must. i'm thinking about shooting for an initial reading of 1.090 or so, but welcome any suggestions.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good news i think. the bucket i extracted yesterday is not showing any signs of self fermentation. this gives me a little breathing room and keeps me from having to use sulfites (campden).

still all things considered and given the history of this mead honey i am leaning toward pasteurizaiton before running it.

thanks again all, and to the forum in general. those archived threads proved very helpful as well.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

a question i have regarding pasteurization - if i add fruit to the must should i pasteurize the fruit as well? i am guessing yes, because if the goal is to eliminate wild yeasts the fruit may harbor some of those as well.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I generally shoot for 1.070-1.075, which gives a 9-10% abv. That seems to give a good balance, at least for my tastes. 1.090 would hit about 12%, which is fine as well, especially if you are adding fruit. 

I don't think you need to pasteurize the honey, especially not if it hasn't already started noticeable fermentation. 

I like to put the fruit in the secondary, after the yeast has run the honey must dry. Any yeasts on the fruit won't get started in that environment. 

Generally you should freeze the fruit first, which bursts the cells, and releases the fruit goodness better. Depending on the fruit and the desired result, 1-3 pounds per gallon is typically recommended.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

awesome info. many thanks bp.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Good advice given. I will just add to sanitize everything you use, including your hands. Doin The Most and Man Made Mead are 2 good YouTube channels to refer to. J


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks 5.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

as luck would have it the elderberries that grow wild on our farm as well as up and down the country roads around here are ready for pickin'

a light bulb went off and so i gathered up a couple of 5 gallon buckets of some really nice clusters yesterday evening.

anyone here having experience with elderberry melomel, bochetomel i think?


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Yes, ive made several concoctions with elderberries. You need quite a few for flavor, less for color. They will give a rich red color and a slightly spicy flavor that I like. 
My wife just started growing them last year so I didn't have much to add. The bushes tripled in size this year and can't wait to use them. 
Use what you got. There really is no recipe except your taste buds. J


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

My first (and best, so far) mead was an elderberry melomel. Unfortunately, I have no notes to share from that one, I just kind of winged it.

Good luck!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks folks! 

i bought 10 oz of raisins yesterday to put in as well.

thinking about freezing the elderberries after destemming, thawing, and then mashing 'em up. the raisins i thought about snipping in half.

do you still advise waiting until the secondary for the fruit and/or raisins?


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I do know that on that particular mead, I put the fruit in primary, and that I used DAP for the nutrient. I didn't have a hydrometer at that time, but I am guessing it was about 12% abv.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks bp. my gut feeling was to put the elderberries and raisins both into the primary and let 'er rip.

will start sanitizing equipment tomorrow, and hope to start the run in a couple of days or so.

the 22% mead honey is showing slight fermentation after 48 hours, but the buckets i have it in don't seal real tight so the oxygen is probably keeping the fermentation at bay to some degree.

i hope i'm not wearing out my welcome here, but...

what i would like to end up with is a semi-sweet mead, not too dry, at 10% - 12% alcohol. any thoughts on how much 22% honey to put into a 6.5 gallon carboy?

the closest home brewing supply store is over an hour a way, and i am trying to avoid the drive, but with so much effort already invested i think i'm going to make that trip, mostly because the energizer i have on hand is many years old and has solidified in the bottle so probably not dependable.

i did purchase some fleischmann's active dry baker's yeast from the grocery store, based on a you tube video i watched in which the presenter was able to make what he claimed was really good tasting mead ending up with my desired alcohol content.

when i went through this with the pear mead last time the person at the home brewing store recommended lavlin 71b-1122 for that. researching that yeast reveals an alcohol tolerance of 14% close enough for me, but again i don't want it to end up too dry. would adding extra honey help me keep it a little sweet to semi-sweet?

also i'm thinking i would like to make sure to kill wild yeasts. pasteurizing the honey should help that, but the elderberries and the raisins won't be getting pasteurized.

i wonder what would happen if i used both a lavlin type yeast and the baker's yeast together?

going to start sanitizing equipment tomorrow, thanks again for all the help!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i have been doing a little more homework, and at this point i have a recepi i think will work.

10 gallons of barely fermenting 22% is what i ended up with. That's several times more mead potential than i have room for. 

in the meantime i heard back from the meadery i reached out to in the beginning, believing time was of the essence due to perceived risk of self fermentation of the honey @ 22%.

i'm going to sell 5 gallons to him for $100. he's stoked to get it. 

i'll see what i can do with the other 5 gallons of mead honey.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

again, sincere thanks for the good tips. i owe each of you a bottle of mead. maybe two.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

To be totally safe to kill the wild yeast you heat the honey to 160f for at least 20 minutes as has been stated. Make sure the raisins do not have vegetable oil added. The raisins should not have any wild yeast, but you can blanch the elderberries to kill the wild yeast, but if you add them in secondary fermentation, it is unnecessary because the alcohol would kill it.
Elderberry has a low sugar content so it will not add much to sweeten or add alcohol . It is very difficult for a new brewer to hit the right sweetness level by yeast alcohol tolerance. I would pastaurize the mead after fermentation, then add a sugar to taste. An alternative is to add a non fermentable sugar like Erithitol. I would not use bread yeast if you can get a yeast for brewing. It will work, but might leave a yeasty, bread like flavor. J


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

In post #11 you asked about shelf life of various items, I would love to see that fleshed out a bit and perhaps added to one of the stickies above.

Counting down until retirement! Want to buy up a bunch of supplies while I still have disposable income...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

today is sanitation day at squarepeg le mel bee farm and meadery:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

prepitch following pastuerization and cool down of must.

specific gravity: 1095

potential alcohol: 17.5%

alcohol tolerance of lavlin 71b = 14%

pastuerization of must appears complete as no co2 was seen at the end of the 3 hour cool down.

airlock reveals positive pressure building in the carboy 15 minutes after pitching.

time for a michelob ultra. cheers!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thinking about letting it get started good overnite, then repour into new sanitized carboy through a filtered funnel to areate and remove seeds and skins, or not, we'll see. any thoughts about that?

the dark color in the photo is deceiving. in the glass the color is a lighter rosy purple.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sorry for the newb question in the last post. after a little homework i see that i am supposed to stir vigorously twice a day for a few days, gradually decreasing the stirring through the primary.

some sources are saying to do the first racking when the hydrometer shows about 1/3 of the fermentable sugar is gone, and then stop stirring after that. is that more or less what you folks are doing?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

William Bagwell said:


> In post #11 you asked about shelf life of various items, I would love to see that fleshed out a bit and perhaps added to one of the stickies above.


thanks for chiming in wb. the yeast was my biggest concern about going bad after 5+ years, but that stuff is cheap enough, and with all the hours invested in extracting, picking and preparing the elderberries, cutting up the raisins, santizing all the equipment, and pastuerizing the must, i went ahead and splurged on brand new yeast.

the sanitizer i had from before turned from small crystals to one large rock, so it was replaced with a liquid version.

almost all the equipment cleaned right up, although again with so little cost involved, i purchased a few new air locks and rubber stoppers.



William Bagwell said:


> Counting down until retirement! Want to buy up a bunch of supplies while I still have disposable income...


awesome! you'll have to make a run up here for a visit to jackson county al when you get all that free time.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

squarepeg said:


> awesome! you'll have to make a run up here for a visit to jackson county al when you get all that free time.


Might just do that. Spent a lot of weekends there (and surrounding areas) back in the 80s. Was a caver (spelunker) even had a Jackson county map. Passed through there twice about 14 years ago, daughter owned 40 acres just north of Huntsville. Beautiful land, wish she still had it...

Need to start a thread about retirement planing down in Coffee Klatch. Long and broke or short and less broke?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

color of the must:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

here's what i ended up using:

08/14/22, 1st mead, elderberry melomel

7 quarts 22% honey
4 gallon jugs of bottled water from the grocery
1 gallon destemmed fresh elderberries
10 oz. diced raisins
1 lb. table honey
10g lavlin 71b

potential alcohol: 17.5% (?)
specific gravity: 1.095 (?)

22% honey and elderberries pasteurized at 145f for 12 minutes


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

another newb mistake. 

i mixed up my second batch of mead yesterday using the 22% honey, and when i took the hydrometer reading prior to pitching the yeast i realized that i misread the hydrometer on the elderberry mead.

what i saw yesterday was that 17.5% potential alcohol does not equate with a specific gravity of 1.095, but rather an sg of 1.134. so now i'm not sure which of the two is correct. i suppose i could take another reading but the elderberry mead is fermenting very nicely and i figure i can always back sweeten to taste if needed.

the second batch made yesterday is going to be a traditional mead with no fruit added. it's off to a much slower start than the elderberry mead, but there is definitely positive pressure in the carboy. it's also possible that i don't have as good of a seal with my plastic carboy and old rubber stopper.

for the traditional mead i added 4 lbs of table honey to 6 quarts of the 22% honey to achieve a potential alcohol of 14.5% or specific gravity of 1.112.

i have about a gallon of the 22% left which is showing signs of slight fermentation in the bucket. i am going to pasteurize that today. our pears are starting to fall off the trees now, so the plan is to juice up some of those and run a 3 gallon batch of pear mead with the remaining 22%. mrs. squarepeg is advocating to add a little ginger to this one. not my favorite but i will comply for the sake of keeping peace in the home.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

recipe i used for the second batch:

08/16/22, second mead, traditional mead (no fruit)


6 quarts 22% honey
4 lbs table honey
10 oz diced raisins
lavlin 71b
5 teaspoons yeast nutrient

potential alcohol: 14.5%


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

programming note: i edited my post #38 with question marks after the potential alcohol and specific gravity.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I stir 2 times a day for 3 days. The yeast needs oxygen starting out. If it's bubbling, I see no need to do anything else. J


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

If your OG was 1.095 and it reaches full potential, your abv is around 12.5% I wouldn't worry about the reading mistakes on your first try. Most important is producing alcohol, not vinegar. Sanitation and a good ferment will get you there. You can make some adjustments on taste and balance once it has fermented and aged a bit. Both YouTube guys I cited have vids on balancing taste and mouth feel with tannins, acids and sugar. Nice start


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Fivej said:


> I stir 2 times a day for 3 days. The yeast needs oxygen starting out. If it's bubbling, I see no need to do anything else.


understood 5j. i have ordered a stainless steel areator from the brewing supply store, along with some 3 gallon carboys for smaller batches. areation is driven by a small air pump similar to what is use for aquarium aeration. stone areators are also available, but i feel the stainless is more controlled and will be easier to sanitize than the stone ones.

what stirring is also accomplishing is getting the dissolved co2 out of the must, and out of the way of the oxygen. 

the elderberry mead i made 2 days ago is no longer degassing when stirring so i won't be stirring that much more. the traditional mead i made yesterday is still degassing a pretty good bit stirring every 3 hours or so today, but as that stops happening i slow down and stop stirring it as well.

the meadery owner that bought half my 22% honey was nice enough to explain all that, and it was interesting how they use areators and mechanical stirrers on their big batches.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Fivej said:


> If your OG was 1.095 and it reaches full potential, your abv is around 12.5%


yes, well within the lavlin 71b's 14% tolerance. i can always back sweeten with my table honey if it ends up too dry.

taking readings was awkward because i was putting the hydrometer in a thumb test siphon. i'm picking up a proper test stand when the areator comes in.

many thanks and cheers.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Sounds like you are jumping right into it! Yes, I should have added that stirring also degasses. You will want to do that again before you bottle unless you leave the mead in carboy a long time, then it is unnecessary. But at bottling time you don't want to introduce oxygen, so it's a slow stir. J


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood and thanks again 5j!

as mentioned the elderberry isn't degassing anymore but the traditional is still degassing a lot.

i am still agressively stirring the elderberry however, because the elderberries float and get dry at the top. stirring keeps the berries wet and working, and i'm doing that twice a day.

the traditional is getting stirred about every 3 hours or so, starting out slowly so as not to cause spewing, gradually increasing the stir as degassing allows, and ending up with a very agressive stir before replacing the air lock.

it's interesting how the must is pulling all of the color out of the elderberries, most of them are a yellowish-biege color now as the pigments are getting leached into the must. it's the same with the raisins, they have already turned almost white.

i'll continue vigorous stirring throughout the primary fermentation, but after racking into the secondary i don't plan to stir anymore, except maybe a gentle stir a few days before bottling as you suggest, as to allow for as much clearing to take place as possible before bottling.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Fyi, the paint straining bags we use for straining honey are also handy when making melomels. I put the fruit in the bag and if it's light like elderberries, you can add a sanitized weight. They sell large marbles for this and other purposes, but I have used a smooth, non porous sanitized stone. J


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