# Most efficient use of lumber for building hives?



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

I use number 2 grade 1x12s that are 7' long (14s cut in half).
You can always find a use for "the scrap".


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

I watch for sales then buy the cheapest stuff (have to sort a lot of stuff to find what I will bring home) 1x12x6 ft = one deep with an 1 1/4" rip left over to make the frame for innercvers.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

I go to my local sawmill and buy 1"x10"x12' (or 18') *cypress*. Literally, it is 1inch by 10 inches, no funky "bs" cutting like commercial guys at Georgia Pacific or wherever do. I rip and use the 3/8" (ish) scrap on spacers for pollen supplement feeding screens, or more economically, for pallet bottom board spacers. Best thing I ever did was give the local sawmill owner a jar of honey and a fifth of jack. I've been paying 5.50-5.75 a board foot. Only complaint, is when I buy a large lot, some red oak sneaks in! Oh well, the wife always wanted some nice cabinets.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Must bee nice to have mills close :applause:


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Dig around. If there are trees, there are mills. I have two or three to choose from close, and another couple more that are pine only. I choose the one I go to because the guy only does cypress cedar and oak. Well, that and he's really laid back.


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## KSbee (Feb 18, 2005)

For optimizing sheet stock when building tops and bottoms I use the free version of http://cutlistplus.com/. It works great for optimizing and saves a lot of time because you don't have to think about layouts. For building the same thing over and over again, the free trail version is good enough. If I were building custom cabinents, I'd spring for the full version. A person could also use it to calculate the optimal lengths of 1x material to buy for making a certain # of boxes, however that's just as easily done by hand as well.

JWG- you're correct about the board widths you've questioned. Most diminsional lumber is always -1/2" of the nominal width, e.g., so as others have posted you'll need to use a 1x12 for a deep hive body, etc.


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## JWG (Jun 25, 2004)

Thanks for the replies and suggestions. 

I have never been able to determine why the 6 5/8 was considered an "odd" size, or not efficiently cut from standard board widths. The Walter T Kelley catalog always mentioned this, and I have also seen this sort of comment in other texts, always about the medium depth supers in particular.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I buy 50 mediums at a time from Dadant and get the price break, no tax because its ag. I can't buy lumber cheaper enough to make it pay.


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## Josh Carmack (Dec 19, 2008)

OK, for deep supers, buy a 10' 1X12 WHITE PINE, don't buy fir or spruce, or Yellow Pine, it's too expensive. I pay 6.85 for 1"X12"X10' or 10.52 for a 1"X12"X16'

Buy the boards in sets of three. Take your first board, and cut it into 6 pieces 19 7/8, this will leave little more than sawdust for waste. Take your other two boards, and cut 5 pieces at 15.5'', or 14.75" depending on how you plan to join them. (15.5 if you plan on a double or single rabbet, or 14.75" if you plan on butt jointing), cut two more 19.875" pieces. That will leave you 2 to 3.5 inches of waste depending on what joint you plan on using. Do the same with the last board, this layout will allow you to make 5 supers from 3 ten foot planks, leaving little more than 4 to 6" of waste material. ALWAYS rip to width AFTER cutting, this will allow you to select the best edge for waste on individual pieces.
Also, the waste rips from deep supers on finish boards stock is the perfect length, and width for some of the parts needed to make a SBB.

I plan on making a new video soon, keep an eye out if interested.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I buy all #3 common's. Buy by 12' you get the extra inch you need to get two boxes per board. 
I just bought two bunks of #3 1x8x12 for $4.20 a board. I might lose a box here and there because of #3 but still get 25% Select grade too. 
I have very little go to the scrap pile. There's frame parts that get cut from leftovers. More sawdust then anything.


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## Josh Carmack (Dec 19, 2008)

4.20, that's a good price, I can't get anything longer than a 10' for 4.35. Are you buying from vendors, or lumber supply? Even a bundle at a time, I only get them for 4.13, plus shipping, which gets hefty unless I want to buy a whole truckload.

I have yet to find a vendor or a mill that will sell to me Less than a truckload at prices worth the time and truble VS going to my local lumber shed and buying them at 4.35. Course theres not much softwood of any type close to my location. I can drive 5 minutes to get hardwood directly from the mill if I wanted to use cypress, or another hardwood


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## Beekeeper's hubby (Jun 5, 2009)

Recently went to local mill and bought 1x8x10 poplar for $3.40 a board. Whatever is being sawed locally is usually your best bet.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

If you cross cut the boards before ripping to width there will be too much waste when trying to utilize the falloff due to knots. Rip the board first ( after jointing ) then do the cutoff work on the long strip left over. Like Householder says, #3 common is sound grade and best price per bf. #2 is an appearance grade, unnecessary for boxes. The best deal on lumber is if you can find the 2' trim ends, more cutoff work but much cheaper.
Edit: I mean when ripping a 1x12 (11 1/4) to 9 5/8.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

JWG said:


> A 1x10 is too short for a 9 5/8 super.
> A 1 x 8 is too short for a 7 5/8" super.
> A 1 x 7 is too short for a 6 5/8" super.


You can make a 9 1/2 super out of 1x10 and order frames that are 1/8th shorter. You can do the same for a Dadant medium as well, but given the prices and availability of 1x8 rather than 1x7, most people just use the 1x8 and just deal with the slight loss.



JWG said:


> What length board might result in the least waste?


I make 8 frame hives, and for them, a 6' board has very little waste.

But I still can't beat the scrap pile prices at the box stores. At 50 cents for a 3 foot board, it may only be half a box, but it's definately the right price... so lately I have started checking those piles every time I'm going to be driving by one of the big box stores. Every once in a while there will be a big pile and it's like hitting the jackpot.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

So... what turns out to be the most efficient use of material,

When a 1x12 is cut to it's depth/width it leaves a perfect cleat to be used for nailing flush with the outside of the rabbet which is the weakest part of a hive body.
Measure twice and cut once.

Ernie


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Beekeeper's hubby said:


> Recently went to local mill and bought 1x8x10 poplar for $3.40 a board. Whatever is being sawed locally is usually your best bet.


 WOW $.51 a BF. Is that a select cut poplar for that price.
It's hard up north here to find a soft wood from a mill. Walnut, and Oak is way to nice to make boxes out of.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Ron I think that's 45&1/3 cents a board foot.
Poplar sounds real soft and prone to rot but don't know.


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## Beekeeper's hubby (Jun 5, 2009)

The Poplar wood is clean < no knots>. I could have bought low grade <pallet> for $.31 per board foot. I do have to plane them down. In this area poplar is used for barn siding and fences. As long as you keep it painted rot is not a problem. The Timber business has been in trouble for almost 2 years now so the right place and right time can get you really good deals.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

If you own your own sawmill and large chain saws you can really get some good deals, especially when a hurricane comes through or the neighbor needs some big trees removed.  I custom mill my stock width for optimum use and the thickness also so I only have to plane one side (the bees don't seem to care if the interior of their hive is rough cut).

PS: I used to air dry my wood which took 3 to 6 months, I just finished my drying kiln last weekend, it can dry 1500 bf of softwood in about 24-36 hrs!


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

I am with Ross. When you factor in your time I do not see how you get ahead on this. If you are cutting down old growth oak or something and then milling yourself -- this makes sense to me. But I drive down the road a piece and get my deeps for 6.50 no tax, no shipping, and I just nail them up. It takes a long time to cut that raw wood, especially the finger joints. I guess its easier if you just rabbet, but those just don't hold together for me. Even at very cheap wholesale prices you would do better working at Mcdonalds.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

I can tell you this...if you have an accident making your equipment using saws like a table saw, any retail price is cheaper then paying the medical bills.

Speaking from experience, I now buy fabricated equipment (glue, staples/nails) and I stay away from table saws as much as possible.

If you want to know what nerve transplant surgery at the Barnes Jewish Hospital in St Louis costs (2008 dollars)...not to mention the pain associated with the 18 month recovery period is....write to me....been there, done that....


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

mythomane said:


> I am with Ross. When you factor in your time I do not see how you get ahead on this. If you are cutting down old growth oak or something and then milling yourself -- this makes sense to me. But I drive down the road a piece and get my deeps for 6.50 no tax, no shipping, and I just nail them up. It takes a long time to cut that raw wood, especially the finger joints. I guess its easier if you just rabbet, but those just don't hold together for me. Even at very cheap wholesale prices you would do better working at Mcdonalds.


Who are you buying deeps from for $6.50???? Are they box joint or rabbeted. Who care for that price. 

McDonald pays better then beekeeping, but I'll stick to honey producing.opcorn:


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

Im with the few folks above who can buy the woodenware cheaper than to make it myself. Yes, I can find deals on lumber, but it's that most valuable thing of all "TIME", that makes my argument for me.

If I was retired from my full time profession, that would be one thing, but by mathamatical figures, I can purchase everything cheaper than making it myself with the time factor. Other things like tending the bees, church, grandchildren, scouting, are more valuable to me than sawing wood for hours. 

Plus, with folks like Josh Carmack (Bump), who can produce the product with a big shop set up, and helping to support a small business rather than the BIG suppliers, its money well spent in my opinion.

Thanks


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Wow Jeffzhear, sorry about your accident! Whenever I enter my shop, I remember the old saying, "Count your fingers when you start. Count your fingers when the day is over. If the count matches, you've had a good day in the shop." 

I wish i could find .41 or .31 cents a board foot for lumber! Best i can do at a local (30 mi. away) sawmill is .75 surfaced three sides for pine.

Regarding the time versus money equation, I'm in the unfortunate position of not having a lot of time, and having even less money. So I have to do it myself. But that's ok, I have a rather sedentary job, and woodworking and constructing bee hives is physical labor, and cheaper therapy than psychologists and psychiatrists! :lpf:

Regards,
Steven


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

mythomane said:


> I am with Ross. When you factor in your time I do not see how you get ahead on this. If you are cutting down old growth oak or something and then milling yourself -- this makes sense to me. But I drive down the road a piece and get my deeps for 6.50 no tax, no shipping, and I just nail them up. It takes a long time to cut that raw wood, especially the finger joints. I guess its easier if you just rabbet, but those just don't hold together for me. Even at very cheap wholesale prices you would do better working at Mcdonalds.


My son and I can easily mill the parts for 30 deeps per hour. Because I custom mill my own lumber, my cost for the wood runs less than $.50, so lets do a little math here:

$6.50 - 0.50 = $6.00 gross margin per deep
$6.00 X 30 = $180/2 = $90.00 per hour.

Unless the price of a Big Mac has really gone up since the last time I ate at McDonalds, I think it would be tuff to make than kind of scratch working there.  There is a little that needs to come out of that for wear and tear on the machines, electricity, etc. but by my math, I am still coming out ahead by a significant amount, even if I were to hire a couple of shop hands at $10/hr. Admittedly, if I had to pay $.75/bf for the feed stock, it would probably not be worth it since a deep takes about 4.5 bf (6 bf if you use 1x12's).


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm still looking for that guy that is selling deeps for $6.50.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

Gene Weitzel said:


> My son and I can easily mill the parts for 30 deeps per hour.


How do you do them so fast?



Gene Weitzel said:


> Because I custom mill my own lumber, my cost for the wood runs less than $.50


How do you get wood so cheap? Or rather, where can I get wood so cheap?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

SgtMaj said:


> How do you get wood so cheap? Or rather, where can I get wood so cheap?


I buy my wood from a mills in New Hampshire and Vermont. Usual price is $.20/board foot. The boards are sorted by width. They are either "planer outs" or industrial grade. Planer outs are 2" - 6" boards that have a defect. A knot, a stain, or a crooked edge. They were cut off a longer board, so the long board is perfect. The defect can be worked around. Industrial is a lesser grade than the best. Often with knots and other defects. No big deal to cut around these defects, either.

I've been replacing worn out woodenware for about 10 years now. Almost finished. Almost all my bottoms and covers have been replaced...I reuse the metal pans on the covers. Most of my thousands of supers have been replaced, and I'm now working on my hive bodies. 

The year I used 16 rolls of duct tape to prepare the hives for winter did it. By the time I retire, all my woodenware will be in top shape.

Keep the quality of your woodenware up...and don't live off depreciation.


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

I have a mill near by, so I have an order in for some 10" pine boards, they will be run through the 4-sider to 3/4 thick and 9 5/8" width. ready to build! I uaslly barter so little or no cost.
Too bad everyone can't do it this way.

With the right shop set up I can see cutting out 30 an hour, I did 72 med. a few days ago, took about 2 hours, this was a a load of short 7" boards I got at a surplus place in GA. (thanks to fatbeeman)


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I cut a bunk of 1x8x12 the other day and got 192 midiums for $403. The right shop does help alot. It take more time to do setup then the cutting the parts. Unless you make alot of boxes or that goes for any equipment. 
I own my own brake too for bending up my tins for lids too.
I can get 29 tins per roll of coil stock. I built 290 new lids for about $750. Lids are where you can really save money on.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

SgtMaj said:


> How do you do them so fast?


I custom mill the lumber to near finished dimensions where I only have to do a 1/32" cleanup pass on one side with the planer. Then I use a cutoff saw to cut the blanks to length and then two table saws (one with a dado the other with a rip blade) and custom slides and jigs to finish. I don't do the fingered box joints, I use what is called a box corner joint. It is much stronger than a rabbet and when assembled with glue and 1-1/2" crown stables it seems to perform just as well as the fingered box joints especially on mediums or shallows. With deeps I usually sink an additional 1-1/4" drywall screw in each corner for added assurance.



SgtMaj said:


> How do you get wood so cheap? Or rather, where can I get wood so cheap?


I cut my own timber and mill it on my own saw mill. Currently I have no shortage of pine timber from my own land and others who want them removed (which I do at no charge as long as I get to keep the timber). Even at the current price of SYP logs, if I buy them by the truckload it figures out to about 0.06/bf for the log cost. Basically if you want to get the wood for around 0.10/bf, you would have to have a setup like mine and mill it yourself (and it helps that I live in a heavily forested area). I have a custom drying kiln that burns the waste from squaring the logs (and any other wood waste I have laying around). It holds about 1500 bf per load and will dry softwoods in a couple of days, hardwoods take about a week since you have to reduce the humidity slowly to keep it from checking too much. The saw mill was the most expensive part of my setup. I have had it for about a year and it has pretty much paid for itself between custom milling jobs and the savings on bee equipment.

I have seen a couple of posts here that say they can get wood at a local mill for around 0.20/bf, I have not seen anyone doing it quite that cheap in my area unless the volume is quite large or it is off grade lumber. The going rate in my area is 0.45 to 0.50/bf (depending on softwood or hardwood) for rough cut, green wood. That's also what I charge when I do custom milling. That gives a gross margin of about 0.35 to 0.40/bf which works out to a mill rate of about $50.00 per hour. Like anything else, when the volume goes up the price will go down, these rates are based on a quantity of around 1500 bf or less.


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

Gene, Is a "box corner joint" different than a finger joint? If so please explain.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

Yes, a "box corner joint" is different from a "box joint" (the one with fingers). A box corner joint is used in cabinetry mostly for drawers, it is kind of like a tounge and groove on a corner. Here is a link:

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/h2woodjoints

Scroll down about half way, it is the fourth image under the heading "JOINING A TOP PIECE OF WOOD TO A SIDE PIECE".

I mill mine to where the tab fits into the groove tightly and requires a light tap from a mallet to seat it.


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

Jeez, I kinda like that. Any iidea how my cut sizes will change to switch from a plain rabbit? 
That looks way stronger than a rabbit, and way eaiser than a box.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

It depends on which way you do it. I put the groove on the sides and the tabs on the ends. This makes the side pieces full length (19-7/8"). My grooves are nominally 3/8" wide and 3/8" deep, so it means that the ends need to be 15-1/2" long (16-1/4" - 3/4"). When I assemble, I put glue in the grooves and on the outside groove shoulder, tap the box together and staple through the side into the end of the tab on the end peice. Then I turn the box and staple into the endgrain of the sides through the same tab. Repeat for each corner, squaring up with a speed square before stapling the last corner. I typically use five staples per corner (3 through the side and 2 through the endgrain).


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