# Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Define "treatment free"*

I'd really like to make this forum more friendly to freshman beekeepers, how can we do that?


----------



## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

*Re: Define "treatment free"*



WiredForStereo said:


> I'd really like to make this forum more friendly to freshman beekeepers, how can we do that?


Very simple, we should not take criticism or difference of opinions personally, and on the flip side make sure any criticism or difference of opinion we profess is not personal in nature. 

In short we must be able to agree to disagree with out feeling being hurt on either side. The principle is simple the practice is not.

Dan


----------



## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

*Re: Define "treatment free"*



WiredForStereo said:


> I'd really like to make this forum more friendly to freshman beekeepers, how can we do that?


1. Beekeeping becomes like releigion to some people. The truth is we are all fighting the same fight but some of us have different issues to deal with because we are in different places and have different externals.

2. Let people talk about what has 'worked' for them and why they think it worked.
Don't talk about the other guy and why he is doing it 'wrong'.
If your way is so correct the success will win the day.


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Define "treatment free"*



RiodeLobo said:


> Very simple, we should not take criticism or difference of opinions personally, and on the flip side make sure any criticism or difference of opinion we profess is not personal in nature.
> 
> In short we must be able to agree to disagree with out feeling being hurt on either side. The principle is simple the practice is not.
> 
> Dan


Poetry...

I apologise for playing around at the end of the thread last night... I agree completely with the post by toekneepea, have said it many times myself... I try to always answer the questions directly and honestly... some do not like the answer, and that's fine, I am here to help, not fight... these forums may seem like arguments at times, but the majority of it is simply two (sometimes 20) different minds trying to understand both sides of the concepts.... its healthy debating so long as it is civil and stays on point... at times there are several questions that lead from the original question of the thread, and often these questions are important to answer, as they lead back to the original concept. 

I can say of this particular forum, that most people avoid it because of the trend to attack people with different views... when I first read it, I felt disappointed... it seems that the title of the forum may need to be reconsidered.


----------



## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

*Biological Bee keeping*

Just a reminder:

"Biological Beekeeping Discussion of information and application concerning the keeping of bees and production of honey using biological methodology. We seek to understand how the bees operate biologically and then formulate management methods that cooperate, *as much as possible*, with the bees biology without resorting to the use of chemicals and drugs. The Yin Yang of Beekeeping."

I do not see anywhere in there that says that treatment cannot be a part of this forum. I seems that this is lost in some of the discussions on this forum. 
Dan


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

I'm right with Toekneepea. 

I'm pretty amazed at the way some of these discussions go, endlessly introspective, spiraling inwards.

I'm a pretty successful beekeeper, I go by results, I didn't learn from books I learned from spending all day every day with the bees.

But when I post on this forum I get challenged about words, definitions, references, and if I can't get all that right my opinion is worthless.

Shoot all the old guys? wouldn't work. The experts on words and definitons and internet learning would take over completely. Would it help the bees? When I see one of the young smart urban educated internet savy generation able to get as much from his bees as I do, I'll defer.

BTW I'm only refering to the Know it all young smart urban educated internet savy generation. Not the other majority of the same, who are better balanced but often not so vociferous in some of the debates.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

Rio makes some good points also. 

I see new beekeepers fail because they only hear one side of an issue, assume that must be "it", jump in unprepared and lose their hive.

While a forum might be to discuss something, when it's someting that affects the survival of a new beekeepers hive, some format should be in place to ensure the person can hear more than one opinion.

One opinion is not really a discussion.


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

Oldtimer, 

Poetry as usual. 

Basically it all boils down to the fact that people that treat and people that do not treat are all bee keepers and NONE of them deserve to be ridiculed or badgered for their own practices... people keep trying to push one view or the other, but bee keeping just does not work that way..."BEE KEEPING IS LOCATION AND SITUATION SPECIFIC". What works for one, may never work for anyone else.. I have said this plenty of times before, stating what worked for you and your best description as to why you feel it worked is the BEST way to keep from forcing your "views" on others... for example, simply not liking the idea of treatment is not an excuse to badger or ridicule others for their methods... I do not like the idea of buying bees from someone and taking them to mite infested yards just to let them die to try to find the most resistant colony out of the bunch... there is a science to resistances and testing for them is very simple... but I do not go to threads where people are discussing doing so and tell the that they are wrong... I simply offer my knowledge of the testing methods and principles that may help them save a ton of money, years of waste, and help their bees do what they were intended for.


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

Unfortunately we all have different dispositions and that comes heavily in to play both in the posting and the reading of post, please bear with me I only had two years of college ...we all have the choice to read a post subjectively or objectively but most it seems choose the subjective route which opens oneself up for offense. Example: Someone posts the following statement, "I sometimes work my bee's in gym shorts and a tee." Objectively read, it is simply a statement of a beeks choice of management technique, but read subjectively...one might think "he is saying I am a coward because I suit up every time I check my bee's! I must defend my hurt pride and strike back!" when there was no thought of malice what so ever in the originators post. I feel I have gotten much more info and enjoyment out of some of these discussions once I started practicing to read them objectively.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*



Oldtimer said:


> some format should be in place to ensure the person can hear more than one opinion.


There is. It's called be civil.

"*Be civil.* Personal attacks are never okay. We can disagree and debate a subject, which is fine. You'll find no "know-it-all's" here. No one on this forum is in a position where they can't be questioned or disagreed with in a civil manner."


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*



rrussell6870 said:


> What works for one, may never work for anyone else..


True, and that doesn't give anyone the freedom to come into a forum like this and start arguing "the other side" just because it didn't work for them. There is a time to simply be quiet and not respond. Put the "save the beekeeping world" approach to the side.



> but I do not go to threads where people are discussing doing so and tell the that they are wrong...


But some do and it is extremely annoying. Often veiled to look otherwise of course.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

If i ever come across as a "know it all" call me on it....i am always trying to change up what I am doing to do what is best for the bees and me...and then I share. 

Mike


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

What do you guys think is something to do to make this place safer for freshman beekeepers?

I'm calling them freshman beekeepers because it sounds more professional and less paternalistic than "newbees."


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

I have never kept it a secret that what it took for me to move from treatment to treatment free came with a lot of hard work and loss of bees. Since I don't discuss my methods much anymore, a freshman may think starting out beekeeping treatment free doesn't have much risk. I know I don't want beekeepers just starting out to go down the road I went down, only to hit the ceiling with mites/chemicals and have to start all over on a different path. So I would not shy away from encouraging one to go down this path, but they ought to know, as with any option, there are risks.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

Never saw you as a know it all, Kingfisher. I've been following your posts with a lot of interest.

Only thing wrong with you is you never told me how those cells are coming!


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

Can you define "freshman"? Lol. I don't mean to start another dictionary thread... but I could give a few better ideas depending on the terminology... are we talking number of colonies, years of experience, etc... or first package or nuc type folks?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

freshman (plural freshmen)

1. (US) A person of either sex entering the first year of an institution, especially a university or legislative body. 

Let's call beekeeping an institution of higher learning. I read someone call themselves a 'sophomore' over in Beekeeping 101 (which also has school connotations) and I figured it was a good idea.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

A freshman would have few number of colonies, if any, few years of experience, if any, getting their first package or nuc in a few days, weeks . . .


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

Exactly what I meant to say. Probably a bit more general than I'm capable of.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

I see the starter of this thread called himself a newbie. Quote - "I'm a newbie". So he obviously has no problem with it.

To me, the most daunting thing for some new folks is the worry that the question they ask might look foolish. 

But all questions should be encouraged.

So, a new person by calling themselves a "newbie", kind of gives themselves permission to ask those questions, as they have claimed "newbie" status which clearly shows they are in the learning phase and deserve to have even the simple questions fully answered.


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

Thanks Barry, I know of more than a few people that have doctorates in entomology before ever owning a hive, work as state inspectors before ever owning a hive, and others that have purchased a thousand hives without ever seeing a bee yard... all of which are "freshmen" in my book... lol. I'm using my phone to post as we are heading back from an island yard, and the battery is getting too low for comfort, so I will post again as soon as I hit the hotel.

Good post Oldtimer! I agree and feel that no matter what methods one follows, they should be willing and able to explain their reasoning and experience with their methods as well. I hear people say that they are "treatment free" quite often, and give others advice, but what they fail to mention is that they only have 5 hives, have only had them for two years, and started out with 20... things like that are what seems to stir most of the anger in the forums...

Ps... Mike, I am also waiting to hear about how your cells turned out!! I have a few openings for good beekeepers... hint, hint... ;-)


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*



WiredForStereo said:


> freshman (plural freshmen)
> 
> 1. (US) A person of either sex entering the first year of an institution, especially a university or legislative body.
> 
> Let's call beekeeping an institution of higher learning. I read someone call themselves a 'sophomore' over in Beekeeping 101 (which also has school connotations) and I figured it was a good idea.


Beekeeping is in no way an institution. It is a vocation or a profession.

"Novice Beekeeper": one who has the level of knowledge and experience of a beginner. Beginner: someone in the early stages of owning and understanding honeybees.

Using the term "freshman" implies that one will one day be a "sophomore" beekeeper, a "junior" beekeeper and then a "senior" beekeeper. Too complex and nebulous a set of terms.

We already have a perfectly good word for those who are beginning their beekeeping life, it's "Newbee". Any feeling of a derogetory nature is in the mind of the one taking offence, for lack of a better word.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. "Newbee" or "Beginner Beekeeper", both self applied terms, have been around for ages. Apparently the society of beekeepers has ruled on this subject by concensus.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

Call them what you will, but this forum is broken. I have read numerous concerns both in private messages and in public how this forum is safe neither for beginners nor even for treatment free beekeepers. This is an area where people should be able to learn and share without having to engage in debates about esoteric nonsense that is of no use to the vast majority of the beekeeping world.

Posting in disagreement to everything that is said no matter how innocuous also does a huge disservice to the community as well. So you disagree. It is not helpful tomthe community to make it known publically. Civility is something that I will be enforcing, because even though it is a common courtesy, it seems to have been all but forgotten among a few posters.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*



WiredForStereo said:


> Call them what you will, but this forum is broken.
> 
> Posting in disagreement to everything that is said no matter how innocuous also does a huge disservice to the community as well. So you disagree. It is not helpful tomthe community to make it known publically. Civility is something that I will be enforcing, because even though it is a common courtesy, it seems to have been all but forgotten among a few posters.


If the Forum is broken, maybe it should be Deleted from the list.

I don't disagree w/ everything on Bio Bee, but when I find something I am curious about I believe I have the right to ask questions about it.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

If a forum is broken, it is because there are users within who make it broken. Perhaps they should be respectfully asked to leave.

Users come and read consistently sarcastic and passive aggressive language and something in their subconscious mind turns them off. On the other hand, there are is a tiny minority who sees an opportunity to feed their ego by stirring the pot, causing disunity, and making the forum an inhospitable place even if they don't do it consciously.

It has to stop. The only ones who profit are those who have nothing to learn. The newbees miss out on an opportunity to learn about a counter cultural segment of beekeeping society. Let's be honest, it's a segment some would rather see squashed.

I'm going to be using as much latitude as is given to me to see the harshness ended. If you are not willing to abide by the change, you're free to not post, just like everybody else. Newbees are that important.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Let me remind members that this forum is no different than the commercial forum or the TBH forum. They are forums that focus on a select group of beekeepers doing a specific form of beekeeping. Those who are not in that select group need to be respectful of those who are and not try to derail the conversations within those forums. I agree with Sol that there has been too much animosity posted here. I have not had the proper amount of time to give to this forum over the years to keep it on track. Sol's been a part of this forum for a long time and expressed an interest in helping out, so he is, and I hope we can get this forum a bit more on track.


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

We all have different viewponts, evperiences, and points of reference. I would like to believe that all commercial beekeepers would like to stop ussing synthetic chemicals, but can not because at this tiime, there is no ECONOMICAL replacement for synthietic chemicals. So yes, I think we would alll like to be "biological beekeepers".

From what I can see, some of us have had alot more experience with the "bad things" that are more apt to be found in a commercial setting than in an isolated hobbiest back yard. When a person makes a statement that is obviously in error with the knowledge gained dealling with the "bad things" , I have in the past presented a contrary view. My view was not accepted, mostly because those people had not seen how bad the "bad things" really are. 

How do we protect the Newbies from the well meaning, but less than experienced individuals, with out allowing contrary views to be expressed? 

Of cource, civility must be practiced at all times.

Crazy Roland


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free""*

"What can we do for beginners?" Answer their questions and encourage them to learn all they can about honeybees, beekeeping methods, diseases and pests, and whatever else they may want/need answers to.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Two things come to mind.

When a member uses the word 'you' a lot in there postings, it's a good sign they are in dangerous waters. One can never go wrong by simply expressing their own experience (me, I).

When you look at a member's posts in a forum like this and most of them are countering the direction of the thread content, it's a sign they are looking more like a troll.

Keep in mind as well that the lion's share of people interested and posting in a forum like this will not be commercial beekeepers for the reason you already stated.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

To make a clarification, I moved this topic to a new thread from the old one.

I did it with the express permission of the poster in a private conversation.
It contains parts of both the subject he and I wanted to discuss and the original subject.
I did not do a good job of editing the post to remove the old stuff or renaming the post to reflect the new subject.
Hind sight is 20/20.

The subject is what is now in the Title bar. If one follows the progression in the posts, it always has been.


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

From a beginner a few years ago. 
If I didn't think treatment free, or at least chemical free was an option I wouldn't have started beekeeping. I'm glad the people here talked me into starting that way years ago, & have no regrets.

I cringe when I hear people talk about their routine preventative spring/fall treatment.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

When I click the "new posts" link I see subjects relating to that. I feel kind of helpless to say "hey, there are other options" but it's not my place to comment in those forums.

One of the things I have been hearing new beekeepers doing more often is doing a beekeeping social media type thing where beekeepers of one or just a few hives kinda form collectives in their neighborhood or town so they are able to pass a frame of brood back and forth from time to time. It would be great if we could facilitate that.


----------



## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

I think the previous reference to the top bar forum was relevant. 
I would not go into the top bar forum and regularly advise newbies there to switch to Lang hives instead to solve their top bar problems. Doesn't matter if I think they would be better off in Langs. I just assume the people there _want to talk about keeping top bar hives_. Why would I be hanging out there trying to discourage and question the method?

I don't think the people in the Biological forum want to debate whether keeping bees without hard treatments is a good idea. They're here because they already think it is and want to discuss how to do it well with those who have done it and can guide them in that goal.
It's a given that people posting in this forum have already made the decision that they are interested in keeping bees using as little chemicals as possible. Perhaps the regular forums should be the place for others to question the very concept of natural beekeeping. 
This place here would be a great place for the discussion of how to successfully raise bees more naturally. (hey, what a concept!)


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Excellent point. As those things begin to happen, perhaps we will see more new beekeepers in here asking questions about what we're up to. 

Let us not forget that they are in here watching already. But there is a reason they're not posting.


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Omie, 

Good post... I addressed that issue earlier ... I simply wanted people to keep in mind the following two issues...

1. Segregation of bee keeping is the reason our industry is hurting today... most may not remember, but not so long ago, ALL bee keepers helped one another out and ALL bee keepers worked together for a common goal... limiting input creates the "us vs them" mentality that causes the uncomfortable settings which keep people from getting involved in the first place...

2. Excluding commercial bee keepers from being able to advise others on how to manage colonies without the use of chemicals is like kicking the elders out of the tribe because you don't like hearing about the past... it will only leave you making the same mistakes all over again... I have managed thousands of colonies without treatment, as have many other commercials here, we have far more experience on both sides of the field than the guy with 5 hives (that originated from a commercial yard and commercial genetics)... so does the fact that we have been successful at bee keeping really mean that our advice should not be available? 

I completely understand that it would not be ok to advise someone trying to start out chem free to treat with chems... that sort of thing is not even in question... the forums are a great resource for newbees BECAUSE of the diverse knowledge and experience that everyone brings to the table... how would it be helpful for newbees to only allow them to converse amongst each other?


----------



## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*



rrussell6870 said:


> Excluding commercial bee keepers from being able to advise others on how to manage colonies without the use of chemicals is like kicking the elders out of the tribe because you don't like hearing about the past...


But I didn't think anyone was suggesting that. I thought it was suggested that commercial bee keepers and in fact _any_ beekeepers should go elsewhere if they want to debate the validity of and discourage others from managing colonies without the use of chemicals. 
I agree that there are commercial beekeepers who have very valuable knowledge and experience for natural beekeepers and they can be a productive part of this forum- as long as they have a supportive attitude in keeping with this forum's intent.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

You should teach New Beekeepers and teach them WELL!! That includes ALL viewpoints and MANAGEMENT techniques, TREATING AND NOT TREATING included as options. What are the outcomes of doing one or the other?? A well rounded knowledgable beekeeper is a better beekeeper. Here in Alabama, to become a certified master beekeeper in the future you will have to work a set amount of time with a commerical beekeeper. That way the two year hobbyist that has two hives of bees will understand how the bigger beekeepers work and what their mindsets are when they pass their certification. Thus they will not go to the state capital, pass ridiculous legislation or make suggestions within the industry that hurts everybody--they are informed, professional beekeepers regardless of size of operation. Yes, there will be a segment in there to treat or not to treat. We WANT well rounded professional beekeepers for the future!! TK


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Ted -

Let's not keep going round and round on this. If you want to discuss treating, do it in one of the other 30 forums, not here. I'm going to start deleting posts that continue down this road. Time to move on in this forum. We're refining the description and purpose of this forum, but this part is, and always has been, a non-negotiable.


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

One would have to be a new beekeeper of extremely limited intelligence to think that this Biological Beekeeping forum or any natural or treatment-free forum was the one and only source of beekeeping information available on the planet. 

I've been participating on the Organic Gardening Magazine forum for many years and on occasion, someone asks for information on using a chemical poison like Sevin or Round-Up. The usual answer, appropriately, is to suggest alternatives, and, if they feel they must use it, to read the label or look elsewhere for the information they seek. No sub-set of a whole is responsible for teaching the tenets of the rest of the sub-sets to make the inquirer a better-informed person. We don't see this happening in our major religions, our political organizations, our news media or even in the other sub-sets (forums) of Beesource. 

Whose responsibility is it then, if posting on the Commercial forum, to include detailed non-treatment techniques or alternative biological methods everytime a discussion of Checkmite or Apistan or the like comes up and avise the commercial guys that they are poisoning their bees and ruining the world?. That would get old pretty quick, not to mention rude and boorish.

Wayne


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

That has certainly been done on the commercial forum, there was an exchange of ideas, nobody was bothered.

There was recently a thread on the queenbreeding forum, about heater bees. Should have been in the general bee forum but it was fully discussed, nobody was bothered.

Sometimes the red herrings turn out to be pretty interesting.

Having said that, if this forum is to be narrowly defined in that way and the position is non negotiable, fine. It's Barrys site he can run it however he likes. Just make that plain in the title there will not be problems. Where I went wrong is I did not understand, from the title, just how narrow I had to keep what I said in this forum.

As to the concern over some new folks thinking this forum is the only source of knowledge, in some cases, you might be surprised how true that is. Some newbies are impressed with the idea of "natural" and "treatment free", decide that everybody else are chemical poisoners, especially after I see them being told that, and regard advice from other parts of the forum as suspect.

It happens.


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Exactly. To me, the misleading concepts of commercial operations being "bad for the bees" is a terrible insult... these guys have devoted their lives to bees, usually several generations, millions in funds for research, much more in resources for research... they care about bees, not just their own, but ALL bees... everyone just needs to understand that when they give advice, its because they want the receiver to succeed in bee keeping, not because they are trying to advocate chemical use. But newbees here people saying horrible things about them and spreading falsehoods, then they refuse to listen to any advice that the commercial guys give and it starts the mind set all "old methods" are wrong and bee keeping has to be about gimmicks and tricks... this industry and the future of bees altogether is too important to most commercial guys to sit back and watch this happen... that does not give them the right to knock others for their views, but it does not give others the right to knock them for theirs either... making the forums (any of them) "safe" and informative is easy... keep it civil and drop the "us vs them" attitudes... its silly and childish. No one person or group of people "own" bee keeping. This forum is intended to be used to discuss treatment free methods... that's great, treatment guys should not advise treatment methods on this forum... no problem... but you have titled this forum "Biological Bee Keeping"... your description does not match the title. That draws a lot of the confusion to begin with... why not "Treatment Free Bee Keeping"? That way people that are interested in that can easily locate it and those who are not can easily avoid it..


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

"Organic beekeeping" used to belong to us. Now it's meaningless.
"Natural beekeeping" used to belong to us. Now it's meaningless.
"Biological Beekeeping" used to belong to us. Now it's becoming meaningless.

Now we should give that up too? There are already guys arguing that "there is no such thing as 'treatment free beekeeping.'" Where will the co-opting end?


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*



rrussell6870 said:


> why not "Treatment Free Bee Keeping"? That way people that are interested in that can easily locate it and those who are not can easily avoid it..


If this is all it takes, I'll be happy to do that. This forum started as a continuation of a discussion list I had on Yahoo called BioBee. After about 4 years, I decided to close the list and move the discussion here. Dee decided to start the Organic list and went there. I wasn't interest in trying to pin down "organic". Treatment free is hard enough!  Perhaps a name change is in order. What do other's think about that?


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Sol, 

That is outrageous... NONE of those forms (or titles) have ever "belonged" to you or anyone else for that matter... I have thousands of hives... natural cell, treatment free, organic, hygienic, etc... your five hives of bees that have not been treated since you started them does not give you any ownership in any type of bee keeping... my family has developed many strains of bees... we do not claim "ownership" of the strains... the things we do as bee keepers to further the industry and/or strengthen the species do not give any of us some form of ownership, it gives us a future. This is a perfect example of the "us vs them" mentality...


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Thank you Barry. I think it would help greatly and I will gladly send people to this forum that are interested in "treatment free methods".


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

My apologies. Let me rephrase.

"Organic beekeeping" is now meaningless.
"Natural beekeeping" is now meaningless.
"Biological Beekeeping" is becoming meaningless.

Now 'treatment free beekeepers' should give that up too? There are already guys arguing that "there is no such thing as 'treatment free beekeeping.'" Where will the co-opting end?


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

I am an entomologist... I work with hundreds of others that are as well... biological bee keeping is not becoming meaningless... ALL bee keeping is biological... that's my point about the title... most see this title and expect it to be a forum based on scientific developments... then they feel disappointed once they find it to be otherwise... All of those forms of bee keeping are still very much so meaningful and are used all over the world... the "terminology" in this forum is all that is in question. I feel it best to be direct... there are no conspirators out to destroy any forms of bee keeping... there are simply many methods that are being used...


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*



Barry said:


> If this is all it takes, I'll be happy to do that. This forum started as a continuation of a discussion list I had on Yahoo called BioBee. After about 4 years, I decided to close the list and move the discussion here. Dee decided to start the Organic list and went there. I wasn't interest in trying to pin down "organic". Treatment free is hard enough!  Perhaps a name change is in order. What do other's think about that?


Barry I'm with that. Calling it the treatment free forum nails it down a lot more accurately.
I don't think there's a need for a lot of argument about just what treatment free is, either. The majority believe it means chemicals, leave it at that and give a little lee way as the moderator sees fit on a case by case basis.

As there is a case for treating, in some circumstances, my 2 cents is that somewhere, perhaps as a subtitle to the main title, some kind of indicator should be given to newbies that other options than treatment free might be found elsewhere.


----------



## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Name change could help, also change in attitude, if possible. 
Us vs. Them is not a civil way to have any discussion.


----------



## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

I very much agree that "Biological beekeeping" is confusing and misleading. Calling this forum "Treatment Free" or even "Natural Beekeeping" will help give folks the message that it's for discussing how to do that. I think it will cut down on confusion about whether one can come here with the goal of challenging the validity of 'natural beekeeping'.
Just because it's called Treatment free Beekeeping doesn't mean that only treatment free bk's can talk here- _but it shows more clearly what the intention is in this little corner of BeeSource_.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Natural beekeeping will be polarizing. It implies everybody else is "unnatural" and IMHO is the cause of ill will between beeks the world over, not just on Beesource. The term is, and has been used in a self righteous kind of a way.

Could small cell foundation be discussed on the natural forum? surely not. Be fine on the treatment free forum though, on the understanding treatment free refers primarily to chemicals.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Before we keep going with this, just remember, there's a lot of history here. Those complaining about the name are kind of complaining about a man's life work.

I was on the Bio Bee list for a time back in the day. I was on the organic list. Dee had to ask people to leave who kept stirring the pot in the very same ways it gets stirred here.

I want this forum to be better for newbees. But let's slow down and think a little harder about what we want. Barry has been involved with this for a very long time. Let's be sensitive to his feelings as well.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*



WiredForStereo said:


> Now we should give that up too? There are already guys arguing that "there is no such thing as 'treatment free beekeeping.'" Where will the co-opting end?


When we stop segregating into factions and agree that there are only beekeepers and nonbeekeepers.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*



Barry said:


> What do other's think about that?


Change the name, narrow the focus, drop the Yin-Yang reference.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

What do I think about this. Great change the name. I posted because I thought this forum dealt with the biological aspects of bees and beekeeping. Was I wrong. Treatment free beekeeping is fine. TED


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*



WiredForStereo said:


> Before we keep going with this, just remember, there's a lot of history here. Those complaining about the name are kind of complaining about a man's life work.
> 
> I was on the Bio Bee list for a time back in the day. I was on the organic list. Dee had to ask people to leave who kept stirring the pot in the very same ways it gets stirred here.


Nothing against Barry, but "biology" is many of our lifes' work and actual profession... as is bee keeping... amongst the scientists, the use of the term "Biological Beekeeping" for this type of forum has been a running joke... I myself have had to defend beesource a few times because of it... 

Nothing against Dee, but that's what science is all about... dismissing other possibilities simply because they clash with your own theories is the best way to lose credibility as a researcher... the only way to prove a theory is to account for all variables, run side by side comparisons, and record all of the results openly...

I'm sure Barry has worked very hard, and although we have certainly had our disagreements, I am thankful for his work here on beesource... the only reason that I am requesting this change is because I want beesource to be a more useful tool for everyone and become more respected by all.


----------



## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*



rrussell6870 said:


> ... dismissing other possibilities simply because they clash with your own theories is the best way to lose credibility QUOTE]
> 
> I hope we don't end up there


----------



## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

There needs to be a forum that is dedicted just to the Biology of bees and the Biological aspects and implications of keeping bees. If that were to come to pass, I would vote Mr. Russell and Mark (sqk) as moderators. They both know a tremendous amount about honeybees. TK


----------



## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

I agree that if you want this to be a treatment free forum than clearly state that. If this is a discussion on bee biology and management than leave it as it is described, but than other views will need to be welcomed because as I read the description i see no exclusion of all treatments.

Personally i would like to see both, as I value both perspectives.

I have benefited and greatly appreciate all the work that has gone into this site.


----------



## no1cowboy (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

I dont treat my bees and came to this forum for that reason, to discuss the non-treatment aspects, I have been skiming over the post this past week wondering why im still coming here!!


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

There are some useful posts in this forum you can probably find them, and in the other sections also.


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

I am perfectly fine with :"Treatment Free" I like it! :thumbsup:


----------



## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

I'm fine with renaming the forum "Treatment free" as well. It would be way less confusing than "Biological Beekeeping". Of course, I'm assuming that one could participate even if not completely treatment free themselves. Otherwise, I'd have to leave since I use grease patties with wintergreen and thyme oils.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Since the reduction of use of pesticides is already being discussed under Bio Bees, does that mean it's okay for us to discuss there use here? I thought that was what brought on this Thread, because folks who do treat were participating in a Forum in which treatments are verbotin.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

If you wish to "discuss pesticide use, " we (those who moderate and participate in this forum and believe in its premise) would prefer that you would do it the "Diseases and Pests" forum or some other appropriate forum. 

If you would like to discuss beekeeping without the use of chemicals and drugs, feel free to do it here. If you would like to discuss the elimination of pesticides as much as possible (which is 100% elimination) feel free to do that here as well.


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Going all German on us there Mark??


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

No Mark. This forum (Biological Beekeeping) is about everything except chemical/drug treatments. I'm not sure why this is still being discussed/questioned. I plan to change the forum name, update the description, and get on with life. I've been busy the last 24 hours, but will get back here soon.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

pesticide use reduction?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*



Barry said:


> pesticide use reduction?


"What is your Philosophy or Tactics for the Reduction of Pestricides?" listed under Bio Bee.


----------



## no1cowboy (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*



Oldtimer said:


> There are some useful posts in this forum you can probably find them, and in the other sections also.


Why would one want to dig through the "garbage" for one or two good posts?
:waiting:


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

You make a good point. We're working on it.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Well I assume one would not want to dig garbage looking for the one or two good threads.

The title and first post will normally give away the kind of thread it will be. If you don't like garbage digging, go no further. Look for threads about bees.


----------



## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*



Oldtimer said:


> The title and first post will normally give away the kind of thread it will be. If you don't like garbage digging, go no further. Look for threads about bees.


Yes, and _I have a feeling there will be a higher percentage of good non-treatment beekeeping threads in this forum soon_, thanks to the discussions we've all been having about purpose and re-naming and such.
I was very happy to see the forum name change this morning! 

My only personal concern is _how and if_ I actually will fit in myself, since I shun hard chemicals but I use essential oils and I embrace manipulation. :scratch: I suspect there are many like myself, and depending on your definition of 'treatment free' we may not fit in here. But I'm ok with that too if need be.


----------



## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

There have been some real gems in this thread, and I've appreciated them, and the concerns shared here.
FWIW, if we would be a bit more clear re: thread titles, that will give folks an idea what the thread is about. When I go to "Pests and Diseases", I simply ignore those that deal with chemicals, as I seek to learn more about dealing with pests. For the sake of the newbees, I'm going to start a new thread re; Beginning Treatment free. :lookout:
Regards,
Steven


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Omie, you will fit right in!

As to the use of OE's I've seen discussing that discorouged by the moderator here in the past, so you would do that in another forum.

Everybody will soon figure it all out, time to all shake hands, back to zen.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

There needs to be some latitude in this forum in discussions. When we got into certain topics on the BioBee list that dealt with moving from treatment to treatment-free, it's understood that treatments will be mentioned and talked about. But the focus will be in how to eliminate them and transition to treatment-free. As long as that is the line of discussion, it will be tolerated.


----------

