# Rabbeted vs. dovetailed boxes



## Doug in PA (Jan 24, 2006)

I'm getting back into bees after a 30 year hiatus. My Dad is still keeping bees at 81. My question is does anyone have experience with the rabbeted boxes and if there is a preference over the dovetailed joinery. Thanks!

P.S. My Wife is joining me in the Beginner's Beekeeper Seminar offered by the CCBA, wish us luck.


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Hi Doug and welcome.
I think the rabbeted boxes are not as strong but have a lot of them in use.


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## Oyster (May 4, 2005)

Dovetails are stronger for the basic reason that it provides more surface area to glue than rabbets.

There are two disadvantages to dovetails:

1. Moisture absorption can warp the ends, making a good fit difficult, and may require chiseling of dovetails for a proper fit.

2. Bad fabrication techniques can also cause ends to not match, or even if matching is okay, the top and/or bottom of the box may not have flush surfaces.

I've encountered all the problems above, but I still prefer dovetails because of the added strength and rigidity.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Use a counter sink and drill them. Glue them with exterior wood glue and screw them together with deck screws. If you do this either will last a very long time. Seal the end grain with something. Paint, wax, linseed oil...


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

If it was a straight up choice, I'd go with the dovetail. I would not pay more for them however. With the glue on the market today, the rabbited will do fine.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I can't trust my lumber quality to stay high
enough to justify any but the usual low-tech
square "finger joint/box joint" scheme.

Steve Forest (Brushy Mountain) cranks out
lots of "rabbeted" boxes, and I'd guess that
I could use nothing but his culled lumber to
make all the boxes I'd ever need. He can make
other things out of less-than "perfect" lumber,
while I don't need and don't make much of that
"other" wooden stuff he makes.

But actual dovetails? Wow, that seems to offer
all the disadvantages of "finger joints" (exposed
wood grain ends) with all the requirements for
square stock of "dovetail", and additionally
require some extra-fancy cutting.

The boxes would look pretty, though.


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## John F (Dec 9, 2005)

Jim, I think he really means box joints.

You can get the strength up by doweling the rabbeted box. Just glue then together, then, when the glue is dry, drill some holes along the joint that fit exactly a dowel, put glue in the hole, and follow with a dowel.

If you choose to use a metal dowel you'll end up with Michael's suggestion.









The advantage of the wooden dowel over the metal one comes into play when there are swings of temperature (different expansion rates) or humidity.

To me, the reality lies in your use. If you aren't going to be moving them much then you'll have all the strength you need without the box joint. If you move then a moderate amount then the screws should be fine.

Seriously, I would take Michael's suggestion. Oh, and I am!

(I am a newbie and building my first set of hives now.)


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Thanks Jim for correcting that piece of information. Not sure what the other 99% of beekeepers who call them "dovetail" would of done without it...


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Not sure what the other 99% of beekeepers who 
> call them "dovetail" would of done without it...

Uh, I guess I'm confused.

Here's what I understand to be "dovetailing":
http://www.jdstools.com/SiteImages/Dovtail.gif

Here's what I understand to be a "box joint":
http://www.jdstools.com/SiteImages/Bxjoint.gif

Here's what I understand to be one kind of rabbet:
http://www.rd.com/americanwoodworker/articles/200202/thismonth/images/potm_5.jpg

So enlighten me, Bjorn - what do YOU call "dovetail" that I don't? 

On the other hand, maybe the problem here is that
you haven't made ANY joints today. I'll drive
up Friday, and we can roll some together.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Bjorn, I got your point even if Jim didn't. 
I prefer the dovetail(actually finger joint as Jim correctly corrected) for strength, beauty and servicability. It is true about the exposed end grain. I over come this by painting the corners first and then doing the bottom coat, ends again, top coat. In my research I have found that PHD types like Keith Delaplane and Jim Fischer prefer rabbit joint because in theory they would work better. Those more simple minded like Bjorn and I would use dovetail because they actually do work better. (For the record we say dovetail mainly to annoy the PHD types and it works quite well) 

[ January 24, 2006, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> In my research I have found that PHD types like 
> Keith Delaplane and Jim Fischer 

Please, please don't lump me in with Keith.
Not fair, as Keith is a paycheck junkie and
desperately wants to someday become "respectable". 
I'm not, so I don't.

> prefer rabbit joint because in theory they 
> would work better. 

No, I make nothing BUT box joints for the 
reasons I stated. Engineering is the art
of making for $1.10 what any fool can make
for $2.05. 'Nuff said.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As a woodworker and carpenter, hearing a box joint called a "dovetail" on a hive always clunked on my ear. But on the other hand it was never confusing since I've never seen a hive with a real dovetail, other than some reproductions of Huber's leaf hive.







So I always knew what they meant. Now that I know it irritates Jim, I'll have to think about whether or not to start calling it a "dovetail" joint.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I've never seen a hive with a real dovetail, other than some reproductions of Huber's leaf hive.

I'll post a couple of photos as soon as I can take them. I've got 2 deeps with real dovetail joints, one in-service, the other sitting dismantled in my woodshed. If my wife hasn't burned it for kindling yet...


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

well I am a simple man that makes a few hive bodies. I have had some store bought [box joints] I use a rabbit joint. with wood glue. its simple and to the point. as far as how long they last I have some 20 plus yrs old, and I think if your makeing your own boxes and get 4-5 yrs you got you money out of them, after all we are makeing a hive body not fine cabinets.
Don


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## LEAD PIPE (May 22, 2005)

I was thinking about making a few boxes and just biscuit the joints together. How do you think this will work?


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

Biscuits and honey what you think? 

I think I'll keep making my square rabbet dovetail fingerjoints. I find it to be the best of all worlds, but I only have time to make one deep a season. Then Michael talked me into 8 frame then I had to take it all apart. Then he convinced me to used all mediums - I know what I'm doing for the next twenty years.... geeze 

I use square box joints - once you have the sled built it's nothing to crank em out. 

Gotta love smellin' like a hamster cage.


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

We have PHD's here too, 

They keep geting hit in the road, they are talking about having an open season next year to cut down on 'em. Getting to be as bad as wild turkeys. Too bad there's nothing that would eat 'em. 

-Jeff


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Doug in Pa,
I acknowledge some confusion on this "dovetail" issue. If you look at the Brushy Mountain catalog and on the website, they clearly market and advertise "dovetail" boxes. In asking which is better (dovetail or rabbeted), I can only assume that you either just went with what alot of beekeepers call dovetail but are actually box joints, or you read information as quoted by bee industry catalogs, such as Brushy mountain's information.

In either case, I think most beekeepers knew what you were asking.

I would ask if anyone knows if Brushy Mountain is actually selling dovetail boxes and not finger joints. I have never ordered boxes from them. If they are selling dovetail, than I see no reason to question and distinguish between the two types as Jim has done. It would be a legitamate question as posed by Doug in Pa.

If they are not selling true dovetail boxes and are just passing off fingerjoint boxes, I would hope that Jim see's the same need to question the marketing of Brushy Mountain. I would think that a company falsely advertising dovetail for finger joints would be quickly be questioned. I know jim would not want his product to be advertised with the same people who are possible falely advertising to the beekeeping community.

Does brushy Mountain have dovetail or not???? I ask since Jim has referenced this company concerning this issue.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I would ask if anyone knows if Brushy Mountain
> is actually selling dovetail boxes and not 
> finger joints.

Use the _Net_ Luke:

If you go here:
http://beeequipment.com/products.asp?cat=19
and start clicking on "enlarge", you find that
"rabbeted" is rabbeted, and "dovetailed" is
apparently box joints.

Well, what did you expect? Steve and his wife
were schoolteachers before they got into bee
supplies.

> I would hope that Jim see's the same need to 
> question the marketing of Brushy Mountain.

Well, in regard to "marketing", Steve dressed
up in a Superman costume at one EAS (I think 2000)
to promote his "SuperFrame" product, and wore
the tights and cape all day long. Another time
he wore one of his beesuits all day long to
prove that they were cool. He also has a habit of
fitting together one of his rabbeted boxes, and
jumping up and down on them to prove that they
are strong and the joinery is excellent, even
without nails, screws, or glue. He's a very big
fellow, big enough that the Superman costume was
a good reason to consume lots of mead.

So, I think in an industry where few people or
firms can even be _accused_ of "attempted
marketing", Steve does a fine job.


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Well I need some education on this joint business. What I see on the links I always called finger joints. They are done with a jig on the table saw, one finger at a time. They have the advantage of a large glue surface. The disadvantage is that a small chip in the jig can change the set-up and the pieces do not line up. Lap joints are ok I guess and that is where the screws suggested by MB come in as a necessity. They would also be good for finger joints. I am more of a hobbyist, am not in a hurry but want quality. So, I use dovetails and the pins and tails are tapered. These are done with a router, a dovetail bit and a purchased dovetail jig. Once set up I cut two joining ends at a time. Yes you have to be precise with the set-up but only once. I glue the boxes using pipe clamps and adjust for squareness with an extra one. I have built many but not in the hundreds or thousands. Mine are now out in elements, painted with two coats of Latex and they have not moved or opened up anywhere for several years already, all without screws or nails. Of course I am in Kentucky with fairly high temperature swings but don't know what would happen in extreme high humidity. In desert environment I would expect them to perform well too. I would stay away from biscuits for this application unless you used them with miters in the corners, an awful lot more work. Oh well, take care and have fun


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## beegee (Jun 3, 2003)

Brushy Mt. uses finger joints(box joints) not true dovetails. I don't think the description is meant to mislead anyone, rather to clarify the difference between rabbetted joints and box joints because some folks may think a rabbetted joint is a "box" joint. Brushy Mt.'s rabbetted joint has a little extra lip which makes it nice. I like the box joints for looks, but the rabbetted joints go together so much more quickly and they are easier to paint because there is no end grain showing. This may also help shed water away from the joint. I started out using the box joints and have gone to rabbetted because I can run a bead of Titebond III glue and take my air stapler and knock out a box in a few seconds. I also air-staple and glue frames and use a small brad air nailer to tack in the wedge.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Since I buy all eight frame boxes from Brushy Mt., now, and they are only available in rabbet joints that's all I get anymore. Yes the Brushy Mt. "Dovetail" joints are box joints. I know of no commercial hives that are actual "dovetails".

I've got butt joints I put together decades ago with exterior glue and screws that are still working fine. Rabbets are even better.









If you're only going to nail them (no glue or nails), then the box joints are noticably stronger.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Beegee, I agree that I also don't think that Brushey Mountain is being deceptive. Its a given that most use the term "dovetail' for finger joints. I just wanted to razz Jim some. Thats all.

I know recently using the term "raw" was equated with con-man status. And now Doug in Pa's first post was corrected for a techinicality of mis-using the term dovetail. Give a new guy some slack. I don't have a problem with raw or dovetail. I just wanted to see Jim's level of rationalization in defending brushey mountain in using the term "dovetail". He did an excellent job.

I'm just having fun...But I'm on topic.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Jim's level of rationalization in defending 
> brushey mountain in using the term "dovetail". 
> He did an excellent job.

I had no intention of "defending" anyone's
misuse of a clearly-understood term, but from
what I see, the misuse is so common, beekeepers
seem to have developed their own mis-definition.

I don't give a flying donut what "99% of 
beekeepers think". Its clearly a false statement,
as it should be obvious that there is NOTHING
that 99% of beekeeepers would agree upon. But
the fellow asking the question was "too new",
both to beekeeping and this discussion group to
have yet become as misinformed as either a 
beekeeper or a regular reader of Bjorn's posts.

I don't really care what woodworking terms you 
misuse, until the discussion turns to actual 
woodworking, like making the boxes in question 
rather than buying them. Then misuse of 
terminology gets confusing, and some poor guy 
reads the "advice", and wastes his money on very 
expensive jigs.

> I'm just having fun...

We are all glad you are having fun Bjorn, that
if of course *much* more important than _helping_ 
a guy who clearly stated that he is new to 
beekeeping in his _first... question...
asked... ever._


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

I also like the square- finger- jointed - dovetails myself.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I have been making my boxes with rabbit joints. Nothing fancey, just good old square cut, but up stapple glued rabbit joints. Much easier and quicker to make than box joints. And if you ask me, it makes little difference in the field. If you drop a full box of honey, box or rabbit joint, that box will break its square. 

Just to note, I agree with Jim. When talking carpendtry, the terms should be as closely accurate as possible. Otherwise how the heck do you know what is going on? There are many many cuts in the trade. If I tell my workers to make a dovetail, and they make a rabbit, there will be hell to pay!!


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Who's new to beekeeping Jim? A "thirty year hiatus" and "My dad is still keeping bees at 81" is somehow equated into...

> a guy who clearly stated that he is new to beekeeping in his first... question...
asked... ever.
AND
>But the fellow asking the question was "too new",
both to beekeeping and this discussion group to
have yet become as misinformed as either a
beekeeper or a regular reader of Bjorn's posts

I was referencing a "new" guy to beesource. I assumed he knew what "dovetail" means. He's been around bees for a long time. Again, how about giving him some slack.

> some poor guy
reads the "advice", and wastes his money on very
expensive jigs.

His dad of 81 has bees for many, many years. I just took the comment as many would of taken it, regarding dove-tail and rabbets. Just never knew anyone else with such passion for pointing out what I still say many beekeepers know. If not for you Jim, I doubt anyone else would of taken the time to analyze and point out this most important fact. I know I'm grateful.....


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I like the rabbited joint, not the finger-box-dovetail type.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

As promised... here are a couple of (small) pictures of a dovetail joint hive body:

http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/dovetail1.jpg
http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/dovetail2.jpg
http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/dovetail3.jpg

The middle one shows the original owner's mark- presumably his initials. I've got 2 of these hives, this one lost a number of ears off one side. I doubt I'll fix it. I don't know if these were commercially made or not. I got them from my sister who used to keep bees in New York state about 30 years ago. She doesn't remember where she got them. Notice the metal reinforcement on the frame rest.

George-


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

I have built both kinds,and they both work,time will tell,as they say.
I do the box joints purely to satisfy my own ego,no other reason.And the do look good,but not as nice as George's...
Last fall I tried cutting the pins & tails on 10 pieces at a time and was really pleased with that set up.
I clamped the pieces together with those lightweight bar clamps,(you need to have well prepared stock; flat,exact length,square)and then you have a decidedly large chunk of wood to handle,one however that is REAL stable sliding .
I'm swapping 200 nuc boxes towards my frames/foundations this year,I hope to make 60 deeps,75 med's this way for myself too.It will take me longer to thickness/joint the stuff than to cut the dovetails...err,fingers.
Wish me luck.
Mark


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

Hey guys don't pick on the PHD?S, I got one myself. Course it is a post hold digger!!


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## NorthALABeeKeep (Nov 10, 2004)

Speaking of PHD's ... one of my math professors in college has a PHD that taught at night and worked for NASA in the daytime. The first day of class he told us his experience and degrees then said that of all the PHD's he knew that "piled higher and deeper" most accurately described them.


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## Doug in PA (Jan 24, 2006)

I guess I should have put dovetailed in quotes. Beeline Apiaries & Woodenware, Greencastle, PA only makes rabbeted boxes and is within a drive to pick up supplies. Any experience with them. 
I actually thought there would be more comments on my P.S.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Doug, I deal alot with Beeline apiaries. Good woodeware and cheaper than most of the bee mags, and to save on shipping also is a big advantage. I have no problems with the rabbet corners when glued and nailed.


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## J.G.McClain (Jan 18, 2006)

To invest the time and effort into making my own hive I would dovetail the joints, joining with tite-bond (or the like) and pin nail. Might just be the fact that I dovetail over just about every other 90deg join, and if you like something it will most likely hold together better then something you dont. 

Jake


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

[I also like the square- finger- jointed - dovetails myself.]

I'll send you my plan for my cutting shuttle. 

Dick you had better prepared to set aside some time to do them correctly.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Please people! They are BOX JOINTS! NOT Dovetail joints! George Fergusons' are legitimate dovetails, made with a jig. Technically they are BLIND dovetails 

If you want to hand cut your dovetails you can do a box in about 1 hour if you are fast. My first one took me 2 hours.

I think it is hard to do dovetails much faster even with a jig and a router like George's were cut.

If you build a box joint jig and cut them with a dado blade you can cut maybe 4 at once, you could probably cut 4 in an hour if you really push it.

I would be interested in getting the estimated times from some of the experts here who have been doing this. Can you cut 4 in an hour? How many?

IMO it is not worth it.

[ January 29, 2006, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: BerkeyDavid ]


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

if you are going to make your own stuff, I vote Rabbit joints here, just easier and faster to make and plenty strong enough with screws and glue. if I was buying , I would go with the box joints.


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## onlygoodSHBisdeadone (Sep 10, 2005)

David
Start to finish from 1x12 stock 4 boxes an hour with blind dove tails using a jig and router is about what I get. This time could be reduced more if I had a second table saw set up just for dado head to for handhold. Once the jig and router is tweeked and not changed the dovetails themselves are fairly simple and quick. Biggest problem I have is poorer quality of lumber on the market. True dovetails need good lumber and pieces must be assembled fairly quickly after cutting. If let set even a few days humidity alone can warp the wood.

Bob


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>Please people! They are BOX JOINTS! NOT Dovetail joints!

david! calm down! where do you think you are? in the "dance language" thread....?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Well, I was always told they were rabbet joints. I guess a "rabbit" joint has ears. *S*  

Fusion


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Technically they are BLIND dovetails 

Technically they are HALF blind dovetails.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Sorry, I got a little loud there. Thanks Dick. It has been a long time pet peeve of mine. Guess it got the better of me last night. I am sitting in Osh Kosh Wisconsin in a hotel room for the past 3 days waiting for the ice to clear on Lake Winnebago so we can have the North American Iceboating regatta. Starting to get stir crazy... 

Agree they are half blind dovetails
Agree that if you are making your own rabbet joints are easier and just as good. Unless perhaps migratory uses?

Bob in Alabama, that is impressive production. what jig do you use? 

INteresting point for those handcutting: If you are using pine for dovetail joints you need to use a higher angle. THe angle for hardwood joints is equal to a right angle triangle 8 inches by 1 inch. Angle for pine (or other softwood) is 6 inches by 1 inch.


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## onlygoodSHBisdeadone (Sep 10, 2005)

David
Picked it up from Sears a few years back. It cuts out a corner at a time so one box requires four runs. I've seen one at Harbor Freight as well. I think it run around $49.00.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I prefer finger joints, but in the end I don't care what it is, I just like to glue and screw  and then dip my stuff


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## Greene Mann (May 12, 2021)

Michael, FNG here as far as beekeeping goes, but I have been a fairly avid carpenter since my retirement a few years back, I am in the process of building my first hive. I ultimately decided to go with rabbit joints for my hive supers, and am using titebond III for my joints, I have not however used any screws or nails. Are they absolutely necessary? I had considered adding some oak or maple splines to the joints for additional strength, but in all my building I have found a properly glued joint to be plenty durable. As I mentioned, this is my first hive, so would be interested in hearing your thoughts. Forgot to mention I'm making the hive out of cedar as it happen to be what I had in the shop.


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## Greene Mann (May 12, 2021)

Follow up, I am considering trimming a 1/4" off the top and bottom of the supers I am making and adding a 1/4" piece of rock maple to minimize hive tool damage, waste of time?


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## DavidBrown1212 (May 10, 2021)

I have a half dozen rabbit deeps floating around. They go together very quickly compared to box joints for me and seem to be strong enough. Seems like good glue goes a long way.


The frame rests are too shallow, so they have made good feeder boxes. 
I figured out they would work if you inverted one over the other 🤷‍♂️😃😂


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