# Newbie and his Layens hives



## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

Thank you to all of you that have helped share your knowledge with me so far. @GregB, @Gray Goose and others.

I currently have 2 colony's installed in the Layens hives that I built. One is super productive and has 13 frames as of today to work with(added two yesterday so they have more room to build)
The other hive is very slow to build(interesting these bees are very yellow in color compared to the other colony). Only has 6 frames, has not touched #6 and barley on #5.
Now I know there are many factors in how fast a colony can build, genetics, location to food source and others.
As a science educator and a newbie to bees, I am fascinated by their building and learning more.
I do have a 3rd colony in a swarm trap/bait hive that needs a permeant home. I have a 3rd Layens hive but thinking of putting them with the smaller slower building colony since they themselves are slower and smaller.
Anyone have thoughts?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> Anyone have thoughts?


Nothing wrong with combining either.
In fact, if you hope to harvest any honey this year - do combine them.
Now it the time to catch the main flow (pretty sure so for NE).


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Nothing wrong with combining either.
> In fact, if you hope to harvest any honey this year - do combine them.
> Now it the time to catch the main flow (pretty sure so for NE).


Thanks @GregB 
the sweet clover is in full bloom and a lot of prairie plants are just starting to bloom. The busy hive is by my house that sits on 43 acres, grass(some sprayed for "weeds") some a mix of grass, clover, dandelion, and others, some trees, some managed native prairie. to the east is all monocrop corn this year.
My wife and I are pondering how many hives could we build and aim to catch on the property we manage and live on?









Yellow is our 43 acres, north is housing, east is crop (corn or beans)
light green is mixed grass with clover and other blooming plants ie "weeds" lol
dark yellow is native prairie 
red x is current busy hive, blue numbers are the location of swarm traps that had/have bees.1and 2 have been moved. 3 remains.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

I know if I was @Cobbler I would catch 200 more swarms and have 3000 hives lol


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

You seem to have a good bee pasture.
Granted you are short on the equipment anyway, I'd consolidate those two swarms and try for some honey.

Still have time to capture yet another swarm into the same trap box too.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> You seem to have a good bee pasture.
> Granted you are short on the equipment anyway, I'd consolidate those two swarms and try for some honey.
> 
> Still have time to capture yet another swarm into the same trap box too.


So I have two swarm boxes out yet that have had no action, considering moving them, redoing the lemongrass oil and putting them where the 2 colonies were caught.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

so if I combine the swarms, do I just alternate the frames not sure what I will find for brood and honey.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> so if I combine the swarms, do I just alternate the frames not sure what I will find for brood and honey.


Can alternate.

OR take advantage of you nice Layens hive and just the insert the swarm frames farther away from the entrance (so that they have to go by your existing colony to get to the entrance). 

May put a newspaper between the colonies OR put a follower board between the colonies (where the bees can get under).
OR don't even do anything - just side by side.

This time a year they will readily melt together and select a favored queen.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Can alternate.
> 
> OR take advantage of you nice Layens hive and just the insert the swarm frames farther away from the entrance (so that they have to go by your existing colony to get to the entrance).
> 
> ...


Sounds great. thanks again! hope they step up their production and growth.
then on to see if I can get a forth swarm for my last hive built.

how many free frames in a Layens hive should they have at this time with good clover bloom and our false sunflowers on the prairie about to explode?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> how many free frames in a Layens hive should they have at this time with good clover bloom and our false sunflowers on the prairie about to explode?


You'd want 2-3 frames available at the side at all times - bees need temporary space to dump the nectar. Lack of temp space negatively affects the crop.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

Well I combined the two swarms on Sunday and they were very active on Monday and seem to be adjusting. We will see what the next few days bring.

with my Layens hives and the 3 entrances, could I open the center one along with the one on the end that is open to give them more space for in and out, or would that negatively effect where they build brood cells and store honey?
just thinking of how active they are in my home hive and making more space to go in and out and a shorter distance to get to some of the frames.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> Well I combined the two swarms on Sunday and they were very active on Monday and seem to be adjusting. We will see what the next few days bring.
> 
> with my Layens hives and the 3 entrances, could I open the center one along with the one on the end that is open to give them more space for in and out, or would that negatively effect where they build brood cells and store honey?
> *just thinking of how active they are in my home hive and making more space to go in and out and a shorter distance to get to some of the frames.*


I always find it funny how people are concerned about *few inches *of bee walking - when the bees just flew back home *1-2 miles* with a full load.
If you are really so concerned - then move your hives closer to the foraging areas (now THIS will really matter).


Pick your poison.
But seriously - do whatever you want; there is no categorically right or wrong approach with the large frame long hives.
This is how the brood will look like depending on the entrance position.
I prefer side position - easier to separate out the honey frames (they are to one side).


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> I always find it funny how people are concerned about *few inches *of bee walking - when the bees just flew back home *1-2 miles* with a full load.
> If you are really so concerned - then move your hives closer to the foraging areas (now THIS will really matter).
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks @GregB 
well the field full of clover is only a few feet away so they dont have far to go. its mowed once a week so the old blooms are cut off and we get new each week! They are now working on the 12/13th frames for the hive so a little past half way full. just hoping to keep them happy and make some honey to spare for me this fall. and keep all the bees there to prevent a swarm.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

SO I know very little about drones. at what point do hives start raising drones? for what point? I noticed yesterday afternoon in my very active hive there are some drone cells on a few frames. if anyone can point me in a direction to read more that would be great.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

Just caught my 4th swarm of the year, in the same spot as my second swarm but I'm no @Cobbler I like my first year so far.... lol
Now to see how big they are if they get my third and finial hive that I built or they get added to my slower hive that is now the combination of two swarms already. I am hoping they are big enough to have their own hive.

What's people thoughts on how many Layens frames a colony has to be to have a chance to over winter?
my two swarm hive has 12 frames(6 from each swarm trap) and they are building on each but have only one or two that they have finished. thought of taking some frames away to reduce the hive size and make them build deeper but not sure about removing resources from them. as a newbie I am sure I am over thinking this some.... haha


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

also I have some extra bees wax from Dr leo, I had to do some trimming on the full sheets due to a measuring error on my part when building my frames. Will the bees make use of the wax scraps if I somehow give them to them? And where should I put them so they can get to and use them?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> What's people thoughts on how many Layens frames a colony has to be to have a chance to over winter?


Target 6-8 frames.
I wintered on 4-5 frames OK also.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> also I have some extra bees wax from Dr leo, I had to do some trimming on the full sheets due to a measuring error on my part when building my frames. Will the bees make use of the wax scraps if I somehow give them to them? And where should I put them so they can get to and use them?


Why, save the trimming for starter strips for the future.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Why, save the trimming for starter strips for the future.


thanks @GregB 
hope the one colony gets their butts in gear so I have completed frames or they will have nowhere to move up over winter.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I wintered on 9 last winter and it was a long cold one. I had some of the outer frames left on each hive but they did go up into the dry MC sugar to feed. I am assuming this was because they could not cross back over the empty frames of comb to access the frames in the opposite end of the hive so they just went up. IMO no matter how many frames you leave you will need to monitor that they have feed above, either honey or sugar, so they do not eat their way into isolation.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Important thing is - honey consolidation.

So instead of having 8 half-full frames, it is better to have 6 frames but 2/3 full.
It it best to have a minimum of heavy frames vs. all bunch of light frames.
That should be the ultimate goal.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> I wintered on 9 last winter and it was a long cold one. I had some of the outer frames left on each hive but they did go up into the dry MC sugar to feed. I am assuming this was because they could not cross back over the empty frames of comb to access the frames in the opposite end of the hive so they just went up. IMO no matter how many frames you leave you will need to monitor that they have feed above, either honey or sugar, so they do not eat their way into isolation.


Thanks, with the laynes frames how would I put sugar above?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> Thanks, with the laynes frames how would I put sugar above?


You can not (by design) - that is the permanent fuss from me.
The design assumes you never feed - good luck. 

Well, OK, spread the frames apart to create cracks to allows the access into the attic.
One issue with that is that the Layens frames (as sold) are already typically 1.5" wide.
If one gets into separating them even wider than 1/5" that creates other issues.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Johnwb said:


> Thanks, with the laynes frames how would I put sugar above?


Georges de Layens didn't use frames with touching top-bars, so this was never an issue for him. He used V-shaped closures to block-off the gap between adjacent top-bars which could then be removed in order to place either feeders or honey-boxes on top of the frames. He also suggested using a 'soft' cover over the top-bars in place of those hard V-shaped closures. However, saying this doesn't help someone with existing touching top-bars.

Back in my Top-Bar beekeeping days I faced the same problem, and came up with this solution:
Poppletone's closed-top frame post *#3*

One of my interests is in re-creating historical beehive designs in order to evaluate them, and way back in time a guy named Poppleton made his frames somewhat similarly, see post *#27*, same thread. So I made some of his frames (which had long closure strips placed over the holes) even though I knew these frames were going to be propolised together - and sure enough, within the first week or so of their use, that's exactly what the bees did to them, so they were pulled and run through the table router again to reduce their width from 1.5 inches to 1.0 inch in order to remove those slots. Problem immediately solved.

So that's one workaround - making slots in a few top bars, then covering them.

In his original book, Layens sings the praises of the Fusay feeder, which is a fairly complex arrangement involving some serious hive surgery. This feeder consists of a reservoir mounted on the outside of the beehive, with a small bore delivery tube running through the hive wall connected to a long thin and shallow trough which is installed within a groove cut into the hive wall's interior surface. In this way, syrup is presented very conveniently to the bees inside the hive whenever they may need it, without ever needng to open the hive itself. Clever, but complex.
Feeding above the top-bars is so much simpler.
'best,
LJ


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I used a router and took off about a 4 inch strip in the centre of each top bar on either side leaving the ends of the bars touching. This created openings which the bees could pass thru. I use a canvas cloth to cover the top bars.

I agree with GregB and others, the touching aspect of the Layens top bars is a major flaw. Although it is nice to open the hive and work them, it makes treating, feeding and winter set up much harder. If you built one of the smaller hives that uses 12-13 frames. A hive that size will not sustain a full summer colony with both brood and honey.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

GregB said:


> So instead of having 8 half-full frames, it is better to have 6 frames but 2/3 full.
> It it best to have a minimum of heavy frames vs. all bunch of light frames.
> That should be the ultimate goal.


For sure and I used your advice and removed all the half frames. I did not store them in the hive, you never know where the bees will cluster when a cold snap hits and on a partial frame of honey is IMO not a good place to be.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> For sure and I used your advice and removed all the half frames. *I did not store them in the hive, you never know where the bees will cluster when a cold snap* hits and on a partial frame of honey is IMO not a good place to be.


Typically I will try to have the bees themselves dry those partials *BEFORE* the cold weather sets in.
By simply setting those frames outside of the follower boards (AND scratching the capping!) - the bees will dry the partials and take everything inside the nest.

I will say again - this must be done before the cold season starts.
Virtually last fall I had a case where the bees working through those partials got caught on them and clustered up because of the cold snap (thus creating the second cluster and staying in it).

During late fall checks I caught the double-cluster issue and fixed it.
But one must be aware of this nuance.

This post from 2021 illustrates the issue of poor wintering frames - the bees must be not clustering on empty combs with (nearly) no honey 
GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees. | Page 66 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Georges de Layens didn't use frames with touching top-bars, so this was never an issue for him. ........


Correct.

The issue on hand (in the US!) is that the entire Layens idea and the sole source of information about the Layens hive is this website (others just copy it):

Natural Beekeeping | Horizontal Hives | Extra-deep Frames


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

People bought the original 2-visits per year idea and ran with it - that was the point of often unpractical touching bars.

Of course the owner of the "Horizontal hive" website himself was evolving without much fanfare and was shifting away from his own original claims and ideas.
Which runs counter to the original "set it and forget it" ideology.

Layens Half-Frame & Supers | Free Plans | Horizontal Hives


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

You all Have such great insight, thank you @GregB @ursa_minor @little_john 
I cant really router on frames full of honey and brood but drilling a few larger holes is something I think I could do with the right precautions. I know that one site does not have all the answers, glad to get practical thinking from all of you that have been doing far longer.
need to figure out how to down size the number of partial frames in the under preforming hive.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

so give them some 1:1 syrup, be used for comb building and stored.

IMO 12 can be reduced to 9 so they build them deeper, add the extra too a smaller hive or keep for trapping, ,, do not take frames with brood away

GG


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> so give them some 1:1 syrup, be used for comb building and stored.
> 
> IMO 12 can be reduced to 9 so they build them deeper, add the extra too a smaller hive or keep for trapping, ,, do not take frames with brood away
> 
> GG


where is the best place to put the syrup?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> where is the best place to put the syrup?


Above the frames, for me.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

for now with my touching frames I might go and put it in the empty space on the other side of the divider board since it is summer.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> for now with my touching frames I might go and put it in the empty space on the other side of the divider board *since it is summer.*


Sure.
IF have space AND it is summer - go for it.
I've done it too.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Sure.
> IF have space AND it is summer - go for it.
> I've done it too.


just did an inspection of my slow hive and they are doing decent. nice honey and brood, but frames are half full at best. did not spot eggs but there is capped brood and larvae present in different sizes.
going to try sugar tomorrow to help them out. do I have to worry about ants?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> do I have to worry about ants?


Ants are a non-issue that people focus on out of boredom, lack of knowledge and/or experience.
Very rarely ants are a true issue.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Ants are a non-issue that people focus on out of boredom, lack of knowledge and/or experience.
> Very rarely ants are a true issue.


my most active hive always has a few ants around and chased out a few earwigs the other day lol


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> my most active hive always has a few ants around and chased out a few earwigs the other day lol


BTW, them ants LOVE to catch the wax moths when they can - right there they earn their keep.
True - they may make swiss cheese out of foam insulation but there are ways to cope with it.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Johnwb said:


> Thanks, with the laynes frames how would I put sugar above?


John
I would make a "frame feeder" of the size you use and get them feed with 1 to 1 and in time for it to be capped.
IMO dry sugar is a last resort, best is in combs, capped, before it gets cold.

GG


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

this weekend I moved my 4th swarm into my 3rd full size Layens hive. they had only been in the bait hive for 2 weeks tops. they had 2 frames with 2" wax starter strip, 2 with full wax sheets and one with a tiny wood starter strip. the wax on the first 2 with 2" had melted and fell in the heat, but they built above it just fine and I was able to get it cleaned up and separated just fine. they had built 3/4 full on the first 5 frames and a 6" circle on the 6th frame. they are sure active and building FAST. when moving into the hive a lot of them clustered outside the entrance. This made me think I lost the queen or killed her in the frame transfer. but with a little more smoke they started moving in slowly and by morning they were all in the hive. though they do like to beard but it has been hot and humid these last few days. I went ahead and added two frames the next day with full wax sheet foundations. then I saw how much they were checking out the frames past the divider board and how much they were bearding so I added a third frame as well. they are sure active and and building fast. Im super excited about these girls being in my bee yard!


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

so we are feeding what I call hive #2 sugar water in an ice cube tray with floating cork, it is working well and they are sucking it up. hot humid days are here this week for sure.

With my 4th swarm, that went into my 3rd hive, I discovered a small issue last night. While my son was mowing he saw a bunch of bees on the tree where the swarm trap was, and so I went to investigate. I was expecting 20-30 bees like the first time I removed the swarm box.(swarm 2 was caught on this tree too) but I discovered that there was more like 200-300 bees there clustered on a crack in the tree and cluster hanging off the 2x4 that the box sat on. Without an "expert" to call, I decided to go to my garage and get the swarm trap that they had been in originally and put one frame in and set it on a block of wood by the tree. Some of the bees went to it right away to check it out and go in. I left it there till 10 pm when it was dark, about 1/3 of the bees had went in and there were still some on the crack and some on the 2x4.
so I smoked and swiped with my brush to get 90% on them in the trap and then drove them to the hive and bumped them back in with their sisters. Now I hope they stay! I checked on the bee tree at 9am today and there are about 20 bees there. SO my question of the day is: do I put the swarm trap back and take the bees back home every other day or watch if they have a semi large swarm again and then take those bees back to the hive?
what can I doo to not loose these bees?
thoughts????


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

so again today there are about 200 bees on the tree, no real cluster.
so I decided to put the swarm box back out to see if I can reunite them one more time. but boy they are ANGRY since they dont have a queen and they are "lost" hanging out on a tree.
need to figure out if I can keep them safely boxed in the 6 frame swarm trap and feed them some sugar water for a day or so then but them back in the hive to see if that would disrupt them enough to stay at their hive.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

I did hive inspections on hive #1 and #3. 
Hive #1
added frame 15&16 to the hive. they are bearding and hanging out in the left free space in late afternoon/evening. But by morning they are back in the hive. they are building nicly on the wax foundation. Saw the queen, saw lots of honey and are some frames sure heavy!. Saw larva but not eggs that I could find. Saw the queen as well and she is a beauty. I first saw the swarm had moved into my swarm trap on June 8th which had 6 frames three with foundation and 3 with none, just starter strips. I have been trying to give them frames with foundation as much as possible to save them work, but had some frames that I built just had started strips. lots of the brood frames are now half honey, noticed a lot of pollen now too. the two frames furthest to the right which are by the entrance it seem that they are filling those with honey and pollen and not leaving room for brood. Is this in prep for winter when they will not occupy these frames on the end?
noticed a few drones on the frames and one frame with capped drone brood. in downsizing the hive for winter should I think about getting rid of the wax/frames that have the drone sized cells all drawn out to discourage future drones?

Hive #3 
this hive was just made with a swarm on July 30. they were a bit harder to move in and have some issues with bees going back to the tree that the swarm box was on. Overall they are building and doing well. did not spot the queen but saw capped brood and small larva did not notice eggs but I could have just missed them. Good honey and some pollen so I am happy with this new late addition to the bee yard.

thanks for reading and any advice!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Johnwb said:


> the two frames furthest to the right which are by the entrance it seem that they are filling those with honey and pollen and not leaving room for brood. Is this in prep for winter when they will not occupy these frames on the end?


I found the same thing in my 4 Layens deeps. The first frame to the right of the entrance is always stores. When I had my entrances slightly farther left (my first year), every frame to the right of the entrance was stores, 2 frames in total. I wanted to have them set up the nest at one end moving to the other, right to left during the winter, so I drilled another hole farther right and closed the one farthest to the left. Now only one frame in each hive is to the right of the entrance and is stores.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> I found the same thing in my 4 Layens deeps. The first frame to the right of the entrance is always stores. When I had my entrances slightly farther left (my first year), every frame to the right of the entrance was stores, 2 frames in total. I wanted to have them set up the nest at one end moving to the other, right to left during the winter, so I drilled another hole farther right and closed the one farthest to the left. Now only one frame in each hive is to the right of the entrance and is stores.


it is quote cool for a Newbie to see all the pollen and honey. Love to watch them work and what they build.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

the bees sure like todays weather I think. the hive is much easier to cool today when the air temps are only 80 with a nice breeze, where as Saturday the temps were 100 in the shade and very little air movement. they were bearding a fare amount they whole last week even with the insulated Layens hive, filling the free space to the left as well. the hives are placed in the shade for most of the day but they do get some direct sun from time to time.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)




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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

We had a great inspection today with a veteran bee keeper today. she is out state association president and has nine hive. She was leery of my horizontal Layens Hives before but today was a good day.
We started at the Edgerton with Hive #2 as we call it that has swarm #2 & #3 in it. We saw brood, drone brood, larva, eggs and the queen. She did a mite test and happy to report with no treatments as of now we found 1 mite on 300 bees. So well below threshold for treatment. This was the hive I was most worried about as they have been the slowest and we started feeding the sugar at 1:1 and on her advice switched to 2:1 for continued building for winter. 
we spent about an hour in the hive looking at the 12 frames.
We then went to my house where the other two hive are.
Hive #1 which is now 16 frames got a bit grumpy with us and our slow looking around. I got stung in the belly and my coworker got stung in the arm. but those are the prices we pay for a slow meandering look in the hive over 16 frames.
missed the queen the first time though, but say drones, drone brood, brood, larva, eggs, honey and pollen/bee bread.
Checked back on a frame to see about a good one to do a mite test and spotted the queen and decided that we where not going to do a mite test. really happy with there build up and the honey that they have made, stored and capped.
Moved onto Hive #3
noticed some great activity and building that they have done in the short time that they have been in the hive(moved in on 7-30, would guess that they were in the swarm trap for 7-14 days max) they are on 9 frames now. with some small building on frame #9. The three added after their transfer were all with full wax foundation.
their coloring if different almost a maroon color. very interesting. not sure what breeds might make up this hive. They are doing will in their new home and building fast for fall. They must have come with a fertized queen as there is about to be a population explosion in this hive with all the brood cells (at least two frames both sides) that are ready to hatch. Hope that they continue to find nectar and I know there is tons of pollen for them to bring in.
It was a great day to talk bees and learn more!


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

went in this Sunday to hive #1 and moved some frames with just drone brood and honey to the left so that when the drones hatch the bees fill them with honey and they do not get re-laid in with eggs. All per the advice of the bee keeper that was out on Wednesday.
Saturday night I took the swarm trap with about 200 bees back the hive that they left to be back on the tree where they were caught. this is my last attempt to reunite them and after this they are on their own if they leave again. the hive itself is doing very well and has a ton of brood to hatch this week or close to it. these other bees are close to the end of their life span.
excited for fall for all the bees to get settled in and glad for the clover and other nectar flowers still blooming and all the prairie plants that are in full bloom, lots of pollen and some nectar plants out there. hope the girls finish off their first year with me strong.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> moved some frames with just drone brood and honey to the left so that *when the drones hatch the bees fill them with honey*


You know, John, you *don't need to wait *for the drones to hatch out - this is a pointless waste of time for you.
Those drones are of no value to you at this time anyway (but only a mite incubator).
Simply scrape/decap those drones larvae (I would, given a chance).
Bees will clean them out and refill the cells sooner (the sooner the better).

PS: with all the "natural talks" - some drones are of value but others are just liability and mite generators.
I generate and cultivate valuable drones; but cull the junk drones.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> You know, John, you *don't need to wait *for the drones to hatch out - this is a pointless waste of time for you.
> Those drones are of no value to you at this time anyway (but only a mite incubator).
> Simply scrape/decap those drones larvae (I would, given a chance).
> Bees will clean them out and refill the cells sooner (the sooner the better).
> ...


thanks @GregB 
Never thought of it that way. I was wondering why the hive would put energy into raising drones at this time of year.
how do you cultivate a valuable drone vs a junk drone? what is the difference?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> thanks @GregB
> Never thought of it that way. I was wondering why the hive would put energy into raising drones at this time of year.
> how do you cultivate a valuable drone vs a junk drone? what is the difference?


Drones from a breeder queen - valuable and specially generated (more is better).
Drones from non-desired queens - culled/harvested.

Since you are not up to the point where you have your own "desired/breeder" queens (yet) - all of your drones are a liability (for you!) by default.

Excessively late season drone generation just shows those bees are out of sync with the location.
Though August is not late; not just yet for you or me.
September would be late.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Drones from a breeder queen - valuable and specially generated (more is better).
> Drones from non-desired queens - culled/harvested.
> 
> Since you are not up to the point where you have your own "desired/breeder" queens (yet) - all of your drones are a liability (for you!) by default.
> ...


they had drone brood on 4 sides9two frames) and only about 2 sq inches on each side, so not a lot at all. so far with the bees that I have I like the genetics of this hive compared to the 2nd and 3rd swarm I caught. they are the best on build up, now on 16 frames, half with just foundation, and half without foundation. 2/3rd I'm worried will have enough to make the winter. so If I would leave any it would be from this hive. Good info to have @GregB. learning more and more each time Im in the hives and here on the blog.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> *so far with the bees that I have I like the genetics of this hive *


OK.
So in the context of drones *"here and now"- *it does not matter.
You are NOT mating queens to these drones.
Hence you don't need these untested drones this very moment.

Next year - IF (1)the genetics survived AND (2)you still want them - then yes - you want to create as many drones of this line as you can and deploy those drones into your vicinity to spread the line around.
(while at it - try to capture back some of that material too by mating your own queens to it).

Anyway, this time a year - removal of undesired drones is a good anti-mite measure even if a little (a no-brainer thing to do).
For example, crap like the pictured here needs to be removed.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Johnwb said:


> thanks @GregB
> Never thought of it that way. I was wondering why the hive would put energy into raising drones at this time of year.
> how do you cultivate a valuable drone vs a junk drone? what is the difference?


likely just ran out of worker cells.

GG


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> OK.
> So in the context of drones *"here and now"- *it does not matter.
> You are NOT mating queens to these drones.
> Hence you don't need these untested drones this very moment.
> ...


hive #2 has now had all the drone brood uncapped. rearranged the frames a bit since I am still feeding this hive and then it can be closer to the sugar water since they are building the best closest. now to do more reading on drones and matting queens before spring!


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> likely just ran out of worker cells.
> 
> GG


they are building all new comb so they have not had drones this season in this new hive until they chose to build this comb and this cell size.
Do others cut out drone cells out so that comb is gone and only leave it in hives where you want to have drones?
I have bees so that I can see them and work with them, one hive is at my work s that it is a part of what I do at work and get paid to do it. I will have a summer camp on bees next summer as well as other hands-on education opportunities.
so I check on them daily(not moving frames) but watch and observe. 
But I want to not "meddle" and let them do their thing. they are far smarter them me most likely.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Johnwb said:


> Do others cut out drone cells out so that comb is gone and only leave it in hives where you want to have drones?


they want 17 or so percent drone cells, if you cut them out they are at zero and will just build more.
adding drone comb so you are at 25% would have them "correct" and build worker.

moving them to honey storage areas is the better way to handle them.

so I would not worry about it all the hives will in time have the 17-18 % drone, and hence queens can get mated.

IF you have a hive that tends to draw worker, then let them draw, combs can be moved to other hives.

GG


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> they want 17 or so percent drone cells, if you cut them out they are at zero and will just build more.
> adding drone comb so you are at 25% would have them "correct" and build worker.
> 
> moving them to honey storage areas is the better way to handle them.
> ...


I know the Layens book talks about cutting out the drone comb and Dr. Leo has a footnote that it is not the best practice to do that anymore.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

wondering what everyone thinks about adding a landing board to a insulated Layens hive?
I know I have seen some with and some without. got me thinking today as the bees heavy with pollen were bouncing off near the entrance landing on the ground and roof to catch their breath. so I think it would be better for a bigger area to land by the entrance.
Thoughts?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> wondering what everyone thinks about *adding a landing board to a insulated Layens hive?*
> I know I have seen some with and some without. got me thinking today as the bees heavy with pollen were bouncing off near the entrance landing on the ground and roof to catch their breath. so I think it would be better for a bigger area to land by the entrance.
> Thoughts?


Not necessary IF you entrances are strategically placed.

Remember - the wall of the hive IS the *landing pad *(yes, it is *vertical*, which works great for the bees).
But for this to work - there should be enough landing area *below *the entrance (2-3 inches at the least; more is better).

Nothing prevents you from adding a landing board anyway (permanently or temporarily).
Especially if you entrance is created too low - with no landing pad below bees tend to undershoot a lot (especially in cool conditions).


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

@GregB today they seem to be bouncing a lot. and ending up on the leg of the hive. they were up early and getting big loads of pollen. seem like they are tired and landing all over including the hive roof, my arm and the woodchips below before heading back in.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> @GregB today they seem to be bouncing a lot. and ending up on the leg of the hive. they were up early and getting big loads of pollen. seem like they are tired and landing all over including the hive roof, my arm and the woodchips below before heading back in.


By all means just grab a board or a piece of plywood and make them a very nice landing board.
You got my permission!


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

Well since I have your permission I did it lol.
I made a 2"x1" strip and screwed it tight. we will see if it helps them tomorrow in heavy pollen time.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

now as a newbie to bees and honey wondering on time and amount for honey harvest(if any)
I have heard Dr Leo talk about doing it late in the Layens hives. not sure how much to leave on the good hive and make sure there is enough for spring.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> now as a newbie to bees and honey wondering on time and amount for honey harvest(if any)
> I have heard Dr Leo talk about doing it late in the Layens hives. not sure how much to leave on the good hive and make sure there is enough for spring.


5-8 heavy frames should be enough for your bees (depending on the colony strength).

Heavy frame ~ 2/3 to 3/4 full.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

the good hive also has 2 frames to the side of the entrance that are mostly honey and pollen that I plan to leave for spring build up.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

For reference, last winter each of my Layens had 7 frames of bees and I left 9 frames for winter. One hive consumed only 5 frames the other had only one full one and some partial left. But, and this is a big but, our winter extends from Oct. to the end of April and it was May 5th before I ventured into the hives to check honey stores, that is 7 long months. So about a frame a month for me but with sugar on top as insurance if they get trapped at the wrong side of the hive. Which is what I suspect happened to the one that did not consume many stores, because they did consume more sugar.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> So about a frame a month for me but with sugar on top as insurance if they get trapped at the wrong side of the hive. Which is what I suspect happened to the one that did not consume many stores, because they did consume more sugar.


how do you do sugar on top with your Layens Hives?


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I did the newspaper Mountain Camp method and poured the sugar on. The newspaper does not go to the edge.

I made a deep rim that fit the top of the hive so I could pack on the insulation. Within that box I set a 2" deep rim only over the 9 frames of bees, I put in the sugar, and placed a see thru cover so I could check on it during cold winter days. Over that I placed some cloths to catch moisture and then a down pillow, wrapped in plastic so it would not get wet and lose it's insulation value.

The cover on the 2" inner feeding box was made of boards, you will notice one had a screened hole for venting. I later put on a plastic entry disc so I could close it and then open it if I found that there was too much moisture gathering over the bees, but there never was so it stayed closed all winter. I could just lift up the the centre clear cover and slip in more sugar if I needed. If you have your Layens supered you could just use those as the top box and make a shim that goes between it and the Layens brood box for the feeding rim, but I would make it out of thicker lumber so it sticks out on the inside and lets you place a clear cover over the whole shebang. But the liftable clear insert is the best feature IMO, for winter top ups.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> For reference, last winter each of my Layens had 7 frames of bees and I left 9 frames for winter. One hive consumed only 5 frames the other had only one full one and some partial left. But, and this is a big but, our winter extends from Oct. to the end of April and it was May 5th before I ventured into the hives to check honey stores, that is 7 long months. So about a frame a month for me but with sugar on top as insurance if they get trapped at the wrong side of the hive. Which is what I suspect happened to the one that did not consume many stores, because they did consume more sugar.


Some would argue that it is not a frame a month but 1 mm layer above the broodnest per day. For 7 months one would like to have 7x30=210 mm of honey/sugar above the broodnest in an insulated hive. In this case it would be as much as the depth of a Lang brood frame. Do you think you had 210 mm of stores above the broodnest in your Layens frames? Was it more or less? We have like 5 months winter in Chicago area and my bees survived on medium frame of food (150mm) in BeeMAX poly. I used 6 frame boxes, too. They had 6 deep Lang frames of stores and went through winter without a hitch.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

jtgoral said:


> Some would argue that it is not a frame a month but 1 mm layer above the broodnest per day. For 7 months one would like to have 7x30=210 mm of honey/sugar above the broodnest in an insulated hive. In this case it would be as much as the depth of a Lang brood frame. Do you think you had 210 mm of stores above the broodnest in your Layens frames? Was it more or less? We have like 5 months winter in Chicago area and my bees survived on medium frame of food (150mm) in BeeMAX poly. I used 6 frame boxes, too. They had 6 deep Lang frames of stores and went through winter without a hitch.


 I find it easier to work in # of frames than trying to size up the depth of stores above the brood nest.
I do not go into the brood nest after the second week in Sept. except to slightly move the frames to reposition the Apivar or remove it all together so who knows? I feed syrup until they won't take it anymore and check the outermost frames to see how full they are. Other than that, I know nothing 

Up here some beekeepers even the commercial ones winter outside on a single deep, no extra sugar put above. There is no way they have 210mm of stores *above* the brood nest because then according to my math, the brood nest would have to be .7 of an inch. 

Last winter I had one Lang that I wintered 7X7X7, DXDXM and they went thru all the stores. They were a packed hive, and well insulated. They even ate some of the top MC sugar.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I


ursa_minor said:


> <Snip>
> Last winter I had one Lang that I wintered 7X7X7, DXDXM and they went thru all the stores. They were a packed hive, and well insulated. They even ate some of the top MC sugar.


I had a 5 over 5 over 5 populous colony smack full of stores and sandwiched between two other colonies. They cleaned up all their stores and starved. *That was a head scratcher*! Perhaps this anomoly warrants a separate thread. I have been informed and researched a bit into the paradox of winter failure of high population colonies that were too well endowed with stores and really low heat loss conditions. 

Something about consuming honey to free up water to be used for evaporative cooling; can also result in brood rearing and eating the brood. The unusual consumption leads to more heat and excess formation of gut solids. Sometimes they can reduce population greatly and stabilize, coming out as a weak colony: sometimes it is a race to the bottom.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> winter failure of high population colonies


The optimal size of the wintering colony is indeed - *medium*.
Both too large and too small are problematic.

I even made few posts on the subject (here is one).








Optimal wintering cluster size


(This is not a particular Midwest feature; I only put it here because of where I live.) So I took some numbers from this book (non-English) - the Table 5 to be exact...




www.beesource.com


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> I did the newspaper Mountain Camp method and poured the sugar on. The newspaper does not go to the edge.
> 
> I made a deep rim that fit the top of the hive so I could pack on the insulation. Within that box I set a 2" deep rim only over the 9 frames of bees, I put in the sugar, and placed a see thru cover so I could check on it during cold winter days. Over that I placed some cloths to catch moisture and then a down pillow, wrapped in plastic so it would not get wet and lose it's insulation value.
> 
> The cover on the 2" inner feeding box was made of boards, you will notice one had a screened hole for venting. I later put on a plastic entry disc so I could close it and then open it if I found that there was too much moisture gathering over the bees, but there never was so it stayed closed all winter. I could just lift up the the centre clear cover and slip in more sugar if I needed. If you have your Layens supered you could just use those as the top box and make a shim that goes between it and the Layens brood box for the feeding rim, but I would make it out of thicker lumber so it sticks out on the inside and lets you place a clear cover over the whole shebang. But the liftable clear insert is the best feature IMO, for winter top ups.


thanks for the descriptions and the pics. my hive is quite different then yours. All my frames are touching, so I would have to figure something else out for top feeding like cutting the top bar on a fram that is loaded with honey and bees lol


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> The optimal size of the wintering colony is indeed - *medium*.
> Both too large and too small are problematic.
> 
> I even made few posts on the subject (here is one).
> ...


@GregB my best hive is quite large so hope that it does and can winter well. wonder what everyone thinks about how much the hive stores up pollen vs storing honey? since right now there are tons of pollen plants.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> thanks for the descriptions and the pics. my hive is quite different then yours. All my frames are touching, so I would have to figure something else out for top feeding *like cutting the top bar on a fram that is loaded with honey and bees lol*


Shake the bees off.
Do your mods.
Put the frame back.
If any honey leaks - a non-issue.

Yes, it is unnecessary hassle due to the short-sited "do-not-feed" design.
It only sounds good.
In practice, it is not practical.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> @GregB *my best hive is quite large *so hope that it does and can winter well. wonder what everyone thinks about how much the hive stores up pollen vs storing honey? since right now there are tons of pollen plants.


Your best hive is only *now *quite large - you still have large proportion of the summer bees in it (soon to die off).
It is irrelevant to the actual wintering cluster - with the winter bees left only.
You don't really know what it will be.

In fact, quite large clusters often are precipitously reduced to nothing (when infested with mites).
This is a typical case of commercial bees in the absence of mite treatments.
What you see now means nothing.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If you know your bees are inclined to go into winter with especially large clusters you can control them to some extent with rate of feed. Swarming is a possible side effect. Again that seems to be hereditary as well.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Johnwb said:


> thanks for the descriptions and the pics. my hive is quite different then yours. All my frames are touching, so I would have to figure something else out for top feeding like cutting the top bar on a fram that is loaded with honey and bees lol


And those touching top bars are the inherent problem of the Layens hive design, or the one presently popular. I don't know if the original Layens had touching top bars. I had to modify mine, feeding treating etc. was a pain and IMO a simple canvas cloth cover is just as effective, actually more so because it simplifies manipulations and gives the beekeeper more options. 

I would modify them if I thought I would not have enough stores, it will be too late in the early spring to do much if they are starving. You could separate them for access to the upper feed but would that then compromise their ability to cluster? I don't know. 

The man I bought my bees from told me that winter survival depends not only on the stores but where they are located. The bees can choose, or be caught, anywhere within the nest when the cold hits so any stores placed above need to be accessible from every frame and cannot be situated above to one side or the other. Therefore a half box of stores is not good enough it must extend all the way across the brood area and the same with sugar. 

I wonder if the extra large clusters coupled with the high insulation creates a hive that keeps warm longer both in fall and spring when the outside temps. are not cold enough to make them cluster up. So possibly a couple of months on each end of winter when the consumption goes up? Could a work around be to *not *insulate early when large clusters are present and the temperatures have not dropped consistently into the minus C digits thus cooling the hive down closer to the target "sweet spot" of -5C? I know the bees do not heat the hive, or so they say, but a large cluster certainly can put out some serious heat which, if it cannot escape, must provide some extra warmth in which they can move about and be active.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> I don't know if the *original Layens had touching top bars.* I


It did not.
Plenty of documentation was already posted by @little_john on this subject.

However, the currently used designs in Spain are indeed touching - so that was copied over as if the original design (false!).
Importantly, Spain has predominantly dry, subtropical climate - no essential winter (to bother with dry sugar feeding, etc).
Here is a typical Layens hive for sale - see the frames.
I just googled - "venta de colmenas layens"



















Pretty much what Sharasking RE-sells on his site - imported hives:





Swarm Traps For Sale | Horizontal Hives







horizontalhive.com





Watch the real deal:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Good to watch the real Layens keepers.
Like this one:


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> ...
> The man I bought my bees from told me that winter survival depends not only on the stores but where they are located. The bees can choose, or be caught, anywhere within the nest when the cold hits so any stores placed above need to be accessible from every frame and cannot be situated above to one side or the other. Therefore a half box of stores is not good enough it must extend all the way across the brood area and the same with sugar.
> ...


IMO if the cluster is, say, on 7 frames one can put a follower board to restrict in winter this cluster to 6 frames. The bees from 7th+ frame will go back to those 6 frames. They will crowd on those frames, make the space warm and will only be able to move upwards during the winter.. This is what people do when using long hives in Poland, Ukraine, and some other countries north and east of ones I mentioned. Those 6 Layens frames should have enough food for the winter, either honey or from fall feeding.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Shake the bees off.
> Do your mods.
> Put the frame back.
> If any honey leaks - a non-issue.
> ...


so now changing what I have built, if and when I make mods to the top of the frames, do I leave them open or cover them with cloth or something during the spring, summer and fall?
or just leave them have access to the area above, that they can already access by crawling under the divider board?
interestingly enough they don't crawl or stay on the top of the frames right now when they hang out in the "free" space.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> so now changing what I have built, if and when I make mods to the top of the frames, do I leave them open or cover them with cloth or something during the spring, summer and fall?
> or just leave them have access to the area above, that they can already access by crawling under the divider board?
> interestingly enough they don't crawl or stay on the top of the frames right now when they hang out in the "free" space.


I would try to replicate this design (picture).
Simply keep the frames covered with plastic/cloth *until *the time you need to feed from above (or maybe you'll install some honey frames above).

Don't assume that the bees in winter will crawl "under the divider board".
They will not do this under the freezing conditions (naturally, they will freeze to death).


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> I would try to replicate this design (picture).
> Simply keep the frames covered with plastic/cloth *until *the time you need to feed from above (or maybe you'll install some honey frames above).
> 
> Don't assume that the bees in winter will crawl "under the divider board".
> ...


great videos btw @GregB 
I will try to copy those.
as for going under the divider board I was referring to all summer. I know that they will not during the winter.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

jtgoral said:


> They will crowd on those frames, make the space warm and will only be able to move upwards during the winter.. This is what people do when using long hives in Poland, Ukraine, and some other countries north and east of ones I mentioned. Those 6 Layens frames should have enough food for the winter, either honey or from fall feeding.


This winter I am leaving them on 6 but they will still need to have sugar above as insurance, or at least a method of feeding if the winter gets long. 

IMO it is the length of winter that is the most important thing to consider. Most of the die outs here happen in early spring before most beekeepers can get into their hives to check how much honey was consumed. With me I can easily pop the top and look thru the window. I do not disturb them but can glance at the sugar, if they are up on it eating they have a reason to be there, either they ran out of stores or they found themselves unable to cross over to a frame at the outside, or they got caught up there unable to move down when a cold snap hit. Either way it gives peace of mind.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Johnwb said:


> so now changing what I have built, if and when I make mods to the top of the frames, do I leave them open or cover them with cloth or something during the spring, summer and fall?
> or just leave them have access to the area above, that they can already access by crawling under the divider board?


You can do either, I ended up ditching the boards and using a canvas cloth. Whatever you prefer.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> This winter I am leaving them on 6 but they will still need to have sugar above as insurance, or at least a method of feeding if the winter gets long.
> 
> IMO it is the length of winter that is the most important thing to consider. Most of the die outs here happen in early spring before most beekeepers can get into their hives to check how much honey was consumed. With me I can easily pop the top and look thru the window. I do not disturb them but can glance at the sugar, if they are up on it eating they have a reason to be there, either they ran out of stores or they found themselves unable to cross over to a frame at the outside, or they got caught up there unable to move down when a cold snap hit. Either way it gives peace of mind.


@ursa_minor do you just feed dry granulated sugar?
what keeps it from falling between the frames?


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Johnwb said:


> @ursa_minor do you just feed dry granulated sugar?
> what keeps it from falling between the frames?


Yup, it is the Mountain Camp method taken from one of the posters here on BS. I put a piece of newspaper down and pour the sugar on. Some put a thin wooden strip under the paper but I didn't. I found that when I had to add more they had chewed the paper so I needed to place another piece right on top and more sugar. That was kind of fiddly and cumbersome to do though, as not all the sugar was consumed and the new paper wouldn't lay flat because of the bumps of hard sugar. You need to be quick in the winter so clearing a flat spot was not an option. As a result some did end up on the bottom board as until the sugar hardens with the hive moisture it can run down.

This next season I have sugar bricks that I will use placed on wooden strips to avoid the waste of sugar. If I cannot fit a whole brick in mid season I will just break it into chunks and put in as many as I need to for a top up.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> This next season I have sugar bricks that I will use placed on wooden strips to avoid the waste of sugar. If I cannot fit a whole brick in mid season I will just break it into chunks and put in as many as I need to for a top up.


are they just sugar cubes? like could you bet them in the coffee isle or make some in ice cube trays through dehydrating a simple sugar syrup?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> are they just sugar cubes? like could you bet them in the coffee isle or make some in ice cube trays through dehydrating a simple sugar syrup?


Just search already John? 

Google: "sugar cakes source:beesource"


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

There is a great recipe here on BS I make them in a cookie sheet lined with wax paper, score them when wet and let dry. Easy Peasy


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Just search already John?
> 
> Google: "sugar cakes source:beesource"


well things may be "painfully obvious" to a seasoned bee keeper like you @GregB, but when you are this green you don't even know what to google about on the issue. Things cant cross your mind if you have no idea about them.
I am very grateful to all of your knowledge being shared and the others here.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> well things may be "painfully obvious" to a seasoned bee keeper like you @GregB, but when you are this green you don't even know what to google about on the issue. Things cant cross your mind if you have no idea about them.
> I am very grateful to all of your knowledge being shared and the others here.


OK; I did give you a good search - there is much existing advice.
In fact, if need assistance - ask for a good search input - that would be of the real value.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It would be of great value to have a smarter search engine but that probably is not value to the forums hit count. Johnwb has a valid point, in that it is difficult to search if you do not know the wording that will return results. Search here and most forums will not yield results if you do not have exact terminology; no reward for just being close! Search does not go out of its way at all to be helpful.

I have to agree with Greg about the general value of being able to search up info. Some people quite apparently do not even try.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

crofter said:


> Search here and most forums will not yield results if you do not have exact terminology; no reward for just being close!


Agree basic search built in to most forums is pretty useless. Advanced search is much more useful, for example finding my own old posts on a subject.

@GregB source: and site: are similar but I think site: is the better one for here. Was scratching my head that I was mis-remembering until I found this,
Search Operators 

Lot of changes in twenty years! Couple I remember learning (and occasionally using) are now discontinued.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> @GregB source: and site: are similar but I think site: is the better one for here. Was scratching my head that I was mis-remembering until I found this,
> Search Operators


Yes, I know.

For some reason my browser refused to process the "site:" operator (used to work).
Then I resorted to the "source:" - and it worked.

Must be one of those quite upgrades.
Hate the upgrades that break things quietly.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

I got my first swam call off of a post on FB.
only a couple of blocks away so we went out to take a look. turns out not to be a swarm at all rather just a bunch of bees feeding off her hummingbird feeder.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

Here is one to ponder, I work at science education center. they have paid for me to build my Layens Hives and other support, like checking hives on the clock. The bees and Hives will be future education tools.
SO looking into a SARE's grant in a way to build the number of hive by doing research. but being so new not sure what I would write the grant for yet.
1. side by side Langstrof vs layens hives on bee health and production
2. treating for pest(vero, moth, and other) in some layens and not in others
3. Layens vs "Ukraine" hives like @GregB has
4. direction orientation and prevailing winds effects on hive health and production of honey.
5. caught local swarms vs purchased bee packages.

love to hear what you would do research on if you could.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> 1. side by side Langstrof vs layens hives on bee health and production


Knowing what I know now - the Layens hives (or Ukrainian/Dadant long hives alike) indeed allow lower maintenance overhead (as opposed to vertical multi-body hives).

Like I said before - the bees can NOT install the boxes by themselves.
But the bees surely can take over the horizontal hive by themselves, when left alone.

This is not exactly "set it and forget it" case - now that we may need to treat from mites (I do) - but nevertheless, these setups are still considered low-maintenance.

Not to mention in the Leo Sharaskin type locations these hive don't even need treatments - thus allowing the true "set it and forget it" study case.

Deep & long hives are a good, ergonomically accessible, and "natural" (if you'd like) alternative for hobby beekeepers. These will yield lower honey crop (vs. the multi-box verticals), but at the expense of lower maintenance overhead while affording very flexible maintenance too (important for busy people).

Here - a channel I keep track of (from Ukraine).

This guy keeps a remote yard in long Dadant hives.
This year he visited the yard 3-4 times altogether for the season (lucky that even that was possible - it is war time).
No treatments.
Bees are alive, did well through the summer, and harvested him a good crop of honey.
So such hives do allow the low-maintenance beekeeping (or close to it).

This episode is about "forgotten" bees - harvest time:
(455) Пчёлы сами по себе! Вот что они дали. - YouTube


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

@GregB if you could research anything what would it be?
for me the thing I want to do is learn and increase my bees and bee knowledge.
I know that Dr Leo did have a SARE grant (heard it in one of his Youtube videos) but not sure on what he researched.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> @GregB if you could research anything what would it be?
> for me the thing I want to do is learn and increase my bees and bee knowledge.
> *I know that Dr Leo did have a SARE grant (heard it in one of his Youtube videos) but not sure on what he researched.*


Google "sharashkin sare grant" 
The first items of the search results.
Read.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> @GregB if you could research anything what would it be?


Well, I alluded just above - amount of person/hours needed to receive a pound of honey - Layens vs. Lang.


> These will yield lower honey crop (vs. the multi-box verticals), but at the expense of lower maintenance overhead


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Well, I alluded just above - amount of person/hours needed to receive a pound of honey - Layens vs. Lang.


I like it. 
you think 5 of each hive would be a good average to use?
one local guy go like 300#'s from one have this year and the other 5 had 300#'s combined


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Google "sharashkin sare grant"
> The first items of the search results.
> Read.


Now that I took time to google it....
he talks about "costly" Lang hives at over $100 and he sells his Layens hives for almost $500, very interesting..lol


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> Now that I took time to google it....
> he talks about "costly" Lang hives at over $100 and he sells his Layens hives for almost $500, very interesting..lol


Yep.
I would not take his word for many things - not at all.
Here is a lady from WI who is trying to keep bees per Sharashkin.

(460) BeeLog with Super Bee Shirley and BBS Bees - YouTube 

This year her bees will die again. 
Pretty darn sure.

In fact, as soon as I found his site (years ago now) - pretty quickly I switched to the Ukrainian/Polish/Dadant long hive designs - as more appropriate and widely available online.

On the whole, the Ukrainian/Polish/Dadant long hives are far more ubiquitous than the Layen hives (entire Eastern Euro vs. modern Spain).

Best hidden world secret for the US beekeepers.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Correct me if I am wrong Greg. I believe that the ability to use the deep or Dadant Langstroth frames and foundation by simply rotating them 90 Deg. is simple and relatively inexpensive source of frames or foundation and which can also be used foundationless. Frames then can be extracted in common cheap available extractors. (or crush and strain if you wish)


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Yep.
> I would not take his word for many things - not at all.


It just might be that he used the SARE grant to fund his apiary and his ideas and the publication and speaking tour.
now do I hope to use the SARE grant to build a bigger apiary as well, yes, and to do some meaningful research.....


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Correct me if I am wrong Greg. I believe that the ability to use the deep or Dadant Langstroth frames and foundation by simply rotating them 90 Deg. is simple and relatively inexpensive source of frames or foundation and which can also be used foundationless. Frames then can be extracted in common cheap available extractors. (or crush and strain if you wish)


Why, yes.
Exactly why I am doing what I am doing.

I am building up a cache of Lang medium frames full of honey across my hives. When ready I will extract them conventionally all at once. Just later when have time. 

Also I will be doing the C&S from the actual deep frames - over the winter as time permits.
These frames I will pull in October/November/later.

BTW, this year I sold a nuc to a Layens guy.
He bought his gear from Sharaskin.
I had no problem setting him up - took his frames - returned them back to him a month later with a fully functional colony.

Full 100% compatibility - for *me.*
All my equipment is immediately ready for the Layens framing.

But not for him - he would not be able to take my frames into his boxes (a tad too shallow). That takes extra hassle.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Here is a lady from WI who is trying to keep bees per Sharashkin.
> 
> (460) BeeLog with Super Bee Shirley and BBS Bees - YouTube
> 
> ...


SO i wantched one of her videos and they are painfully slow and good for a log for her but wow boring.....
like I said I could only stand to watch one, so why do you say that all her bees will die again?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> SO i wantched one of her videos and they are painfully slow and good for a log for her but wow boring.....
> like I said I could only stand to watch one, *so why do you say that all her bees will die again?*


She has so many mites, there was one visible directly on a video (highly improbable).
But she insists on treatment-free.

Fine - she needs time.
I have done the same. 

Yes - she is slow.
I simply skip forward to where I can look and diagnose her colonies because she (conveniently!) slowly looks at her frames.

Last season I predicted them all dead by looking at her frames. Commented too about it.
It was obvious.
They died over the winter.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Why, yes.
> Exactly why I am doing what I am doing.
> 
> I am building up a cache of Lang medium frames full of honey across my hives. When ready I will extract them conventionally all at once. Just later when have time.
> ...


might be worth it to just compare the Lag to the ukrain style and move away from the Layens after my first year......
the SARE grant would help with all this and the data on honey production. I will have to do my homework on setups. and how you build your boxes and have things arranged(and others)


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> She has so many mites, there was one visible directly on a video (highly improbable).
> But she insists on treatment-free.
> 
> Fine - she needs time.
> ...


I know that I have some mites, a bee keeper friend that is struggling with tons of mites this year came and did a mite check and we were super low, did go though though after your suggestion and uncap all the drone brood and did see one in the brood too so glad I opened them up for clean out.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

I am going to write in my SARE grant to have @GregB be my consultant and fly you to Nebraska to advise on the project for the grant...... lol


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Knowing what I know now - the Layens hives (or Ukrainian/Dadant long hives alike) indeed allow lower maintenance overhead (as opposed to vertical multi-body hives).
> 
> Like I said before - the bees can NOT install the boxes by themselves.
> But the bees surely can take over the horizontal hive by themselves, when left alone.
> ...


I just watched a few videos from Сhelovek Gora 
thought the auto translation is rough these are some intersting videos. did see in one that he had hives numbered to 51. quite the bee yard. and when Dr Leo talks about "dark Bees" and is in a video with his friend Doug, they look nothing like the bees in this video that do not have really any yellow on them. like how he can work with no gloves yet all the bees sold as "Russian" dark bees are supposed to be very aggressive. All just observations. I know my 4th swarm of the year is a very testy bunch of bees compared to the other 3 swarms.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> like how he can work with no gloves yet all the bees sold as "Russian" dark bees are supposed to be very aggressive.


Dark bees <> aggressive bees (not by default).

I have and like my dark bees as we speak - they are very much Carniolan-like bees. I use no PPE to work them outside of water sprayer (when I don't forget even that).

But I also had dark bees in the past that were much more defensive.

Basically, don't get hang up on the dark bees as if angry bees.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> Dark bees <> aggressive bees (not by default).
> 
> I have and like my dark bees as we speak - they are very much Carniolan-like bees. I use no PPE to work them outside of water sprayer (when I don't forget even that).
> 
> ...


I bought a Russian queen and the workers she produced were a little bit mean. But her daughters which mated with local drones produced quite friendly bees. And the granddaughters, too.
For me the lesson is: raise your own queens and for the money you save buy yourself a good local beer. Local is good most of the time 🤗


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

Has anyone moved honey out of a hive and stored it till spring outside of the hive? if so how did you store it?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> Has anyone moved honey out of a hive and stored it till spring outside of the hive? if so how did you store it?


What would be the utility of this - "honey out of a hive and stored it till spring outside of the hive?"

For anything you do - there should be some logical sense.

But sure.
I do.
I pull honey frames to harvest them later at my convenience.
I pull them when it is cold enough (October and on) so that moths don't get to these frames. The frames are simply stored in empty nucs in the garage until I get to them to crash and strain.

To be fair - it does make sense to pull extra frames *meant for the bees *until later. 
From experience I prefer this now (used to leave them directly in the hive outside of the follower board). 
Reason I don't like this anymore - bees can get onto those frames and then freeze in place.
Best just remove the extra frames.
Just store them in cold storage (garage, etc).


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> What would be the utility of this - "honey out of a hive and stored it till spring outside of the hive?"
> 
> For anything you do - there should be some logical sense.
> 
> ...


I am not sure how much honey each hive will need in spring, one hive has 20 frames and am a bit concerned about how much honey they have above their heads for winter, and if i feed them now I want it to go to the brood frames and not the honey frames. figure if i take the honey frames out they can store the remaining nectar and sugar on the brood frames.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> one hive has 20 frames and am a bit concerned about how much honey they have above their heads for winter, and if i feed them now


You should:

1)condense the nest to the # of frames that WILL go into the winter (say 6-8 frames)
2)feed.

You don't want to:
1)feed
2)then scratch you head how to condense the honey stretched over the 20 frames (too little on each frame).

See the logic?
It is very simple.

Right as we speak, you should be concerned with creating 6-8 frames suitable for wintering.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> nd if i feed them now I want it to go to the brood frames and not the honey frames.


OK, this is sound logic.

Remove the honey frames the farthest possible away from the broodnest.
Place them outside of the follower board - so the are OUTSIDE of the nest.
Spread them apart 1-2 inch - unnatural comb separation.

Feed.

The bees will take the feed into the nest.
The are very reluctant to store anything outside of the nest.

By doing this you 1)still keep *most *of the honey frames in the hive and 2)direct the feed into the nest.

You can always keep extra frames in your garage - just 1)do not allow bees inside and 2)keep the frames exposed to air/light - to keep moths away.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> You can always keep extra frames in your garage - just 1)do not allow bees inside and 2)keep the frames exposed to air/light - to keep moths away.


I was thinking to put them in my swarm traps and I can store them in my office at work. didn't know if that might be too warm though.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> I was thinking to put them in my swarm traps and I can store them in my office at work. didn't know if that might be too warm though.


Swarm trap ~ nuc (no difference to me).

You do not want to keep your frames in warm conditions - you will get moths infestation even mid-winter.

It is not about "too warm" - it is about the moths.

Cold == good.

So, while warm - keep your frames *with the bees* for as long as possible.
If not possible, keep your frames exposed to light/air but NOT accessible by the bees.
If season turns cold - keep them anywhere cool/cold anyhow you want - the moths are no longer a threat.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> OK, this is sound logic.
> 
> Remove the honey frames the farthest possible away from the broodnest.
> Place them outside of the follower board - so the are OUTSIDE of the nest.
> ...


wondering in my one hive if they are moving honey back into the brood nest area that has not been capped along with using the sugar water that I am feeding.... just watching them work for now......


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

This morning it was -10C 😣 and although it is not supposed to get lower than 5C overnight for the next two weeks I removed the two honey frames that I set outside the brood-nest in each hive. The bees were working it but, just like GregB pointed out in post#121 I suspect they were caught on these frames when the temps rapidly decreased last night and were unable to move back into the brood cluster. Those bees were very sluggish and barely moving this morning while the main cluster was humming away. They need to stay together, not spread apart and IMO they have been fed well so they don't need to be mucking about on frames outside the nest. 

I only have a canvas cloth over the cluster, no extra blankets or insulation. With 2.5 inch walls the coldest surface is the lid but the heat from the cluster and the canvas cover keeps the condensation at the outer edges of the lid and not directly over the bees so they are not wet.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> The bees were working it but, just like GregB pointed out in post#121 I suspect they were caught on these frames when the temps rapidly decreased last night and were unable to move back into the brood cluster.


Yep.
Once you have cold night like yours - be careful.
Now is not a good time to loose a frame of bees by accident.

As for me, I still have few weeks to safely dry frames outside of the nest (extracted and such).
But still need to watch that forecast.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

we have the low of 39F tonight so the high is 44F
so I see no activity today but they are all in the brood chamber, so fingers crossed they have a few more sunny warm days


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> we have the low of 39F tonight so the high is 44F
> so I see no activity today but they are all in the brood chamber, *so fingers crossed they have a few more sunny warm days*


You are in NE - very swingy climate - there will be plenty of warm days.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> You are in NE - very swingy climate - there will be plenty of warm days.


they are for sure, its like a rollercoaster some days and weeks.
today it is now up to 50 the bees are in and out, but not on the side fram today, but the ants sure are. do I have much to worry about ants?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> ..... do I have much to worry about ants?


Just put this ant story away.

Yes, ok, they may steal about a half thimble of honey overtime.
But they also watch after the wax moths, etc. 

Outside of large carpenter ants that destroy insulation, I don't care.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I thought this video might be of interest on how to get a deep hive prepared for winter, and how to get the bees to cluster to the bottom of the deep frames. He removes the insulation which I assume was put on to keep the syrup warm, and removes the plastic, allowing the cooler night air to help clustering.
Funny that I just did that, maybe I have learned something after all. 

The next two weeks once again will be in the +15C range so my winter preps will be put off until it stays consistently cool. Last winter I had my styrofoam and upper insulation on by the end of Sept. with the same weather conditions, no wonder the bees did not move down properly. But this will allow a varroa bounce back, so it looks like OAD is on the radar.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

I am wondering how much nectar and or sealed honey they will take form the frames I have moved outside of the divider board back into the brood chamber along with the sugar water that I am feeding them?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> *I am wondering how much nectar and or sealed honey they will take form the frames *I have moved outside of the divider board back into the brood chamber along with the sugar water that I am feeding them?


The guy in the video above has this exact problem - his bees are *not *taking the honey from the outside of the divider boards.
Most likely his inside frames are stuffed.
OR - he needs to make the frame spacing wider outside the divider boards.
Too tight per what I see - then bees don't really feel being "outside".

In fact, have the same issue - need to out and try to fix the issue in the back yard.
I will:

leave only two frames in the "outside space" (take away one frame into storage)
will scratch whatever capped honey there is

Cold weather is now coming in - need to dry the frames/consolidate the honey asap.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Johnwb said:


> I am wondering how much nectar and or sealed honey they will take form the frames I have moved outside of the divider board back into the brood chamber along with the sugar water that I am feeding them?


I think you have to uncap the honey if outside the *follower *board.... Not divider board.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> I think you have to uncap the honey if outside the *follower *board.... Not divider board.



I am giving JWB a break on that. 
Yes - need to uncap and move the frames apart some (even if it takes pulling 1-2 frames out).


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> I am giving JWB a break on that.
> Yes - need to uncap and move the frames apart some (even if it takes pulling 1-2 frames out).


 why thanks..... the board that FOLLOWS the last frame and DIVIDES it from the open space........
LOL


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Johnwb said:


> why thanks..... the board that FOLLOWS the last frame and DIVIDES it from the open space........
> LOL


IMO divider boards are bee tight. Follower boards are not.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> I am giving JWB a break on that.
> Yes - need to uncap and move the frames apart some (even if it takes pulling 1-2 frames out).


I am fine if they leave the honey, but hope they take the nectar.
starting the wind testing here in NE today constant 32 mph for most of the day.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Johnwb said:


> I am fine if they leave the honey, but hope they take the nectar.
> starting the wind testing here in NE today constant 32 mph for most of the day.


Just watch them when it starts to get cold. I uncapped the honey on the frames I put behind the follower, I had plenty of space and yet they failed to get back to the cluster on the one cold night ( as I posted above.) 

They might not just leave the honey but leave the brood nest in favour of sitting on that honey during the day, and fail to make it back as temps. drop.
IMO, when it is starting to cool off at nights you are better off just keeping those frames of honey out of the hive and making sure the bees stay within the brood nest.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

jtgoral said:


> IMO divider boards are bee tight. Follower boards are not.


Got it, still really new and learning all the aberrations too!


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> Just watch them when it starts to get cold. I uncapped the honey on the frames I put behind the follower, I had plenty of space and yet they failed to get back to the cluster on the one cold night ( as I posted above.)
> 
> They might not just leave the honey but leave the brood nest in favour of sitting on that honey during the day, and fail to make it back as temps. drop.
> IMO, when it is starting to cool off at nights you are better off just keeping those frames of honey out of the hive and making sure the bees stay within the brood nest.


they are doing ok on that front so far but I will keep watching. I have the joy of being able to go to my three hives every day. I will have to steel myself from opening things this winter lol.
this afternoon there are about 20 or so bees on the fames(6) in the big hive, some in my feeder tray and most doing their own thing.

@ursa_minor do you have your own thread or youtube showing your hives so I can get better info on what you do?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> Just watch them when it starts to get cold. I uncapped the honey on the frames I put behind the follower, I had plenty of space and yet they failed to get back to the cluster on the one cold night ( as I posted above.)
> 
> They might not just leave the honey but leave the brood nest in favour of sitting on that honey during the day, and fail to make it back as temps. drop.
> IMO, when it is starting to cool off at nights you are better off just keeping those frames of honey out of the hive and making sure the bees stay within the brood nest.


Couple winters ago I had a sugar block on the top of a queen excluder. When it was relatively warm the bees got above the excluder but when it got cold very fast they were crowded and did not make it back to the cluster. The whole colony died this way. Now I put sugar blocks in February directly on the frames.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Johnwb said:


> @ursa_minor do you have your own thread or youtube showing your hives so I can get better info on what you do?


No I do not, I am just learning myself and ask questions here on BS, which thankfully those on the Horizontal Hive forum are willing to be patient enough to answer. The bulk of my beekeeping methods come from the videos GregB posts as well as his own trials and tribulations  on the thread GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.

Everything I do is usually someone else's idea or methods.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

so I did what might be my last hive inspection today since it was so nice out.
biggest colleny is still moving some nectar in and workin away at the sugar water I have for them. saw a few hive beetles. say some larva between the top bars on 2 frames so I scraped the bars clean and killed all the bettles that I saw. we are due for some 22 degree nights coming up so we will see what they do and when they cluster.
the queen was active, saw some capped brood, larva.
on my 4th swarm that is in myt 3rd hive they are on 7 farmes and there is zerro brood, or larva. I did spot the queen. called my local bee keeper friend and she says that this is fine. there are a ton of bees still in there and most frames are 1/3 to 1/2 capped honey and the rest of each frame has lots of nectar .
so now I watch from the outside of the frames so that they can proplase what they want and get winter ready.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

what are all your thoughts on how far open should the hive entrance be for the winter? I have the circular disks on each entrance. the hole itself is 2", I am adding 1/2" wire mess as a mouse guard, should I change the disk to "queen excluder" aka the slots. or close the circle just half?
knowing that many reference the moisture being the issue not the heat/wind. but we sure go get windy here in Nebraska. let me know what you think.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> what are all your thoughts on how far open should the hive entrance be for the winter?........


If unsure - keep it open.
It is safer to keep it open wider vs. not enough.

Wind - you should know the prevailing cold wind direction at the hive's location - the freezing wind should be hitting the back side (better yet to have good wind blocking in place).

PS: clearly, the mice/shrew access must be prevented.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> If unsure - keep it open.
> It is safer to keep it open wider vs. not enough.
> 
> Wind - you should know the prevailing cold wind direction at the hive's location - the freezing wind should be hitting the back side (better yet to have good wind blocking in place).
> ...


Well they are all getting the hardware cloth over the entrance.
The two hives at my house are about two feet in front of large blue spruce. The spruce are to the north of the hives, to block the wind. The placement was very deliberate on those.
The one at my work is more out in the open so i will have to keep an eye on it. but it was the only place to put it on property.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> Well they are all getting the hardware cloth over the entrance.
> The two hives at my house are about two feet in front of large blue spruce. The spruce are to the north of the hives, to block the wind. The placement was very deliberate on those.
> The one at my work is more out in the open so i will have to keep an eye on it. but it was the only place to put it on property.


In general, wind is only a serious issue when you have a screen-bottom hives in open windy place. That can create serious wind-chill issue then.

For you wind should not be a major concern anyway.

With my entrances I never had mice issues (people cry of the mice every season - largely a self-made issue, but people never learn).
Last season I did have one hive hit by a shrew - it was about poorly fitting/half-rotten lid.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Johnwb said:


> what are all your thoughts on how far open should the hive entrance be for the winter? I have the circular disks on each entrance. the hole itself is 2", I am adding 1/2" wire mess as a mouse guard, should I change the disk to "queen excluder" aka the slots. or close the circle just half?
> knowing that many reference the moisture being the issue not the heat/wind. but we sure go get windy here in Nebraska. let me know what you think.


I left them wide open last winter, but I found that sometimes if it got very cold the ice would build up on the wire mesh over the entrance closing off the mesh.

I am not sure if this is because once the warm humid air hit those wires it then froze in the sub zero temperatures. To combat this and the wind all I did was prop a black boot tray against the front of the hive, a piece of plywood or any other item should do the same. After that I didn't have a problem with ice. 



GregB said:


> With my entrances I never had mice issues (people cry of the mice every season - largely a self-made issue, but people never learn).


I would do these small opening you have for entrances, they certainly make sense. My only concern with my hives is that with the 2.5 inch walls I am afraid a few bees might die within the longer exit and block it so other bees cannot get out.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> In general, wind is only a serious issue when you have a screen-bottom hives in open windy place. That can create serious wind-chill issue then.
> 
> For you wind should not be a major concern anyway.
> 
> ...


learning about mice like ants that they are around. just when can they become an issue. 
its all about looking, watching and learning.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

do any of you use moisture whicking products like silica sand?
thoughts?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> do any of you use moisture whicking products like silica sand?
> thoughts?


Of course not.
You've been reading too much about death by moisture, again?

Create 1-2 air pockets.
Otherwise, use your Layens hive as-is and relax.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Johnwb said:


> might be worth it to just compare the Lag to the ukrain style and move away from the Layens after my first year......
> the SARE grant would help with all this and the data on honey production. I will have to do my homework on setups. and how you build your boxes and have things arranged(and others)


consider a long double deep, then any frames you have built can be used.
also a NUC could be direct placed.

And my fav, one long double deep I split into 6 5 frame NUCs when Queen cells were discovered.

look down the page to 
*DOUBLE-DEEP HORIZONTAL HIVE*
at





Natural Beekeeping | Horizontal Hives | Do-It-Yourself Plans







horizontalhive.com





as you are a fan.

mine have thick (4inch) walls and I am in Michigan. 2x4 insulated stud walls.








can go back and forth from lang 10 or 8 or 5 frame boxes to this hive.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> consider a long double deep,


If going that route - I'd go long *double-medium. *

All the same benefit as you described, GG.

The frame is identical to a common, well-tested deep Dadant frame (see examples - Assorted Youtube channels about traditional horizontal hive beekeeping | Beesource Beekeeping Forums ).

Yet the frame is still deep enough and large enough for the bees (and yet small enough too - for much better beekeeper ergonomy!).

Double-medium frame is trivially made from standard Lang equipment in a pinch - as we already know.

I personally still keep this project on my back burner.
Too many projects.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Of course not.
> You've been reading too much about death by moisture, again?
> 
> Create 1-2 air pockets.
> Otherwise, use your Layens hive as-is and relax.


thanks as always @GregB the local bee keeper that I use as a small resource said about still doing mite treatment and adding "moisture boards" I take a lot of what she says with a grain of salt. She is the NE bee keeper association president, teaches classes at the local community college, but does not use Layens or deep hives. when she helped me with my hive inspection this summer was hyper focused on mites, well because she had been battling mites all year and getting overrun. When we did the mite test, we found one, only one. but she still reminded me in our last call on Saturday when I asked about not having brood in Hive 3 that there is still time for mite treatments. so for me right now its listening, reading, and listing to all the experts here.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> She is the NE bee keeper association president, teaches classes at the local community college,


None of these carry much weight with me. 
Not kidding.

I could make a pretty good computer science instructor.
But I am a mediocre programmer in practice.
Personal traits and reality of life.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> If going that route - I'd go long *double-medium. *
> 
> All the same benefit as you described, GG.
> 
> ...


all these options....its like the song




lol


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> None of these carry much weight with me.
> Not kidding.
> 
> I could make a pretty good computer science instructor.
> ...


the ironic thing is all the struggles she has with keeping her bees alive, and a low mite load.
right before fall she discovered her best hive absconded and all their honey is gone too. the bees she has left in her other 3 hives have tons of mites.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> the ironic thing is all the struggles she has with keeping her bees alive, and a low mite load.
> right before fall she discovered her best hive absconded and all their honey is gone too. the bees she has left in her other 3 hives have tons of mites.


See.
And she is a "president" and is teaching too.
I am neither and maybe doing better than her. 

I did have trouble keeping the bees alive too - only because for number of years I was trying to be "treatment-free". Had to adjust to my environment, eventually.

FYI - one of my "student's" hives this year "absconded" too.
But the real issue there was - he missed a queen-less hive.
I did not have the time to be babysitting him.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> all these options..


It is good to have options and freedom to improvise.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> See.
> And she is a "president" and is teaching too.
> I am neither and maybe doing better than her.
> 
> ...


when she started talking about her mite load I was like "do I even want her near my bees?" lol
and she has a problem in her own hive and so she is hyper aware and single focused in others because of it.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> when she started talking about her mite load I was like "do I even want her near my bees?" lol
> and she has a problem in her own hive and so she is hyper aware and single focused in others because of it.


To be fair - mite load is important in that it can kill the bees.

But after few honest attempts, the mite load can be and should be controllable - either by the management or by the bees or by both. 
A "president" level beekeeper should have this one figured out so that she can teach others.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

How late can one do a mite treatment?
what is best for a Layens hive?
not sure what I should even order to get it done quick.
temps have been all over the place the last few days.
I am feeding hive one sugar water in an icecube tray. saw a few dead bees(old?) and a few mites(6) but when I picked up the tray last night, under the ice cube tray was some dry sugar and a number of dead mites. not sure the exact mite load but there has never been mites around on the area outside of the frames.
I will take any advice.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> *How late can one do a mite treatment?
> what is best for a Layens hive?*
> not sure what I should even order to get it done quick.
> temps have been all over the place the last few days.
> ...


1) You can treat at any time until the true winter sets in - still plenty of time.
I am still waiting for my bees to run out of brood - so I can do a round of brood-less Lactic Acid dribble (LAD).
I imagine I will get around to it in 1-2 weeks.
Will check this weekend again for the brood status.

Does not matter if you have a Layens - that is immaterial - nothing is special about your hive in this regard.
But what IS special (and a negative) - you cannot just directly dribble between the frames (for obvious reasons - which is you know about).
But I can, as my frames are not interlocking.

You could setup Oxalic Acid Vaporization (OAV) - search the details.
OR you can dribble frame by frame - totally doable, just a little more work.
This is either Oxalic Acid Dribble (OAD) or Lactic Acid Dribble - for you to choose. I do the Lactic - enough ranted already.

2) Your feeding method is...... well, incorrect.
Clearly, you are not sure what is your feeding goal at this time and how to achieve that goal.

By late October you should just stop this feeding by the "ice cube tray thing". It is getting too late for this game.

You need to figure out what is your situation with the stores.
If you establish there are not enough stores - immediately feed quickly and as much as possible (1-2 gallons!!!!). Hopefully, your bees will still take and process that much as it is now getting too cold. 
If find enough stores - just stop the feeding as un-necessary and promoting late brood (not good).

Again - you could feed from above, but your frames are getting in the way and the Sharaskin hive is not setup for the efficient top feeding.

3) If you see mites just laying around willy-nilly - this is bad news. Essentially, let me predict your hive is doomed already.
You should not be seeing mites easily.
If you do - this normally means that the mite population has already reached some high threshold where it is too late to save your bees. Most likely the winter bee population has been damaged and will not survive.

You can still treat (see #1) - but at this point it is too little too late IMO. These kinds of measures are to be planned immediately when you acquire your bees. I recall you caught some swarms. I am pretty sure I mentioned you should have treated them immediately while your swarms were still brood-less. Unsure if you have done anything or not. But that step was critical for the healthy population down the road.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> 1) You can treat at any time until the true winter sets in - still plenty of time.
> 2) Your feeding method is...... well, incorrect.
> Clearly, you are not sure what is your feeding goal at this time and how to achieve that goal.
> You need to figure out what is your situation with the stores.
> ...


have been feeding about a pint a day and they have a few frames past the follower board that they could pull any nectar from. since I do not have a frame feeder the ice cube trays have worked nicly to give them lots of surface area to walk on.
Yes seeing the mites was a big supprise to me. last time I was in the hive they did have a small amount of brood left, so it should be nice enough this weekend to get into the hive and see what is exactly going on and fingures crossed its not all doome and gloom. but we will see. not in the TF bubble but still whoafully unaware..... lol
thanks again @GregB


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

I have my Oxalic Acid Dribble (OAD) ordered. I will get that applied as soon as it arrives.
so I saw these "bee Grooming" strips, does that really work?


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Johnwb said:


> have been feeding about a pint a day


That might be enough for your area but fall feeding is usually done much faster than that. My bees take a 1/3 to 1/2 gallon a day in the fall. I use a ziplock bag so it lies flat.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> That might be enough for your area but fall feeding is usually done much faster than that. My bees take a 1/3 to 1/2 gallon a day in the fall. I use a ziplock bag so it lies flat.


and educate me on how it is eaten by the bees?


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Johnwb said:


> and educate me on how it is eaten by the bees?


I believe it is stored, not eaten. The point of fall feeding is to provide a source of sugar that they store in the hive for the winter, not for immediate consumption. I think


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

ursa_minor said:


> I believe it is stored, not eaten. The point of fall feeding is to provide a source of sugar that they store in the hive for the winter, not for immediate consumption. I think


Possibly misinterpreting his question. @Johnwb some beeks say the bees will chew tiny holes in the thin plastic. Not tested this myself... Have cut slits in the top of the bag after it is in place on top of the frames. Oddly enough the sugar water does not gush out all at once. Bees 'eat' (move) it as it oozes out. Works great in a hive with a proper lid. Invites immediate robbing in a poorly designed top bar hive


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

William Bagwell said:


> Possibly misinterpreting his question. @Johnwb some beeks say the bees will chew tiny holes in the thin plastic. Not tested this myself... Have cut slits in the top of the bag after it is in place on top of the frames. Oddly enough the sugar water does not gush out all at once. Bees 'eat' (move) it as it oozes out. Works great in a hive with a proper lid. Invites immediate robbing in a poorly designed top bar hive


Of course I did misinterpret it,  I assumed the baggie method was well known.

I cut two slits in the centre of the baggie. I have found that cutting them to close to the edge can result in leakage. Also only fill them 1/2 to 2/3 full.
Honey Bee Suite has a good write up on it. I also put the slits side by side, large enough that I can slip my hive tool thru them and pick up the baggie. That way the syrup will not leak out and I can remove a full or half full baggie if I need to. Either that or put it on an old plastic tray.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> Of course I did misinterpret it,  I assumed the baggie method was well known.
> 
> I cut two slits in the centre of the baggie. I have found that cutting them to close to the edge can result in leakage. Also only fill them 1/2 to 2/3 full.
> Honey Bee Suite has a good write up on it. I also put the slits side by side, large enough that I can slip my hive tool thru them and pick up the baggie. That way the syrup will not leak out and I can remove a full or half full baggie if I need to. Either that or put it on an old plastic tray.


see that is how much of a newbie I am lol
should have said how do the bees get it out of the bag lol.

I have been using larger icecube trays that are placed on the hive floor next to the follower board.
I fill it with a pint at a time, if time allows twice a day for qt or a 1/4 gallon a day. they gather on all the edged of each "cube" and drink up.so they have lots of serface area to stand on.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Johnwb said:


> I have been using larger icecube trays that are placed on the hive floor next to the follower board.
> I fill it with a pint at a time, if time allows twice a day for qt or a 1/4 gallon a day. they gather on all the edged of each "cube" and drink up.so they have lots of serface area to stand on.


Got it, that does work well if you have touching top bars. When I had a layens that had touching bars I would put an inverted two quart sealer (with pin holes in the lid) in the space. I would set it on two little chunks of wood so the bees could access it from the bottom.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Possibly misinterpreting his question. @Johnwb some beeks say the bees will chew tiny holes in the thin plastic. Not tested this myself... Have cut slits in the top of the bag after it is in place on top of the frames. Oddly enough the sugar water does not gush out all at once. Bees 'eat' (move) it as it oozes out. Works great in a hive with a proper lid. Invites immediate robbing in a poorly designed top bar hive


I tested it and use it. I bought a roll of very thin bags like those you pack stuff in vegetable section of the grocery store. No cutting needed.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

jtgoral said:


> I tested it and use it. I bought a roll of very thin bags like those you pack stuff in vegetable section of the grocery store. No cutting needed.


Good to know. I used either quart or gallon sized generic zip lock bags and had not (yet) read of the 'let them chew it' method. Will test ursa_minor's doubble slit hive tool trick next time I need to feed a hive that lacks a rapid feeder.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

jtgoral said:


> I tested it and use it. I bought a roll of very thin bags like those you pack stuff in vegetable section of the grocery store. No cutting needed.


I have lots of those bags, why, I wonder, does it not leak. I have had the ziplock leak if the hole was near the edge, if the bees put holes in those thin bags I presume they are at the sides as well as bottom, why don't they leak?


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> I have lots of those bags, why, I wonder, does it not leak. I have had the ziplock leak if the hole was near the edge, if the bees put holes in those thin bags I presume they are at the sides as well as bottom, why don't they leak?


likely it is due to surface tension and cohesion and adhesion


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Well I am going to try these in the spring for sure. I have two 100 bag rolls of the stuff.

The reason I like the baggies, (or possibly these bags), is because I mix my sugar syrup right in them. I put in the sugar, pour in the heated water seal and agitate periodically, sure saves on the kitchen mess and pot cleaning.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I hadn't thought of the vacumn sealer bags 11 or 12 inches wide that you can make to any length you want. I bought some knock off "zip lock" bags from Amazon and they leaked at the closure. Might have been OK if I didnt also make the slits in the side! End of that!


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

crofter said:


> I hadn't thought of the vacumn sealer bags 11 or 12 inches wide that you can make to any length you want. I bought some knock off "zip lock" bags from Amazon and they leaked at the closure. Might have been OK if I didnt also make the slits in the side! End of that!


the vacuum seal bags might be too think to "eat through"


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Johnwb said:


> the vacuum seal bags might be too think to "eat through"


Yes, fine; I would prefer to control the openings rather than leave it to the bees.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

crofter said:


> I bought some knock off "zip lock" bags from Amazon and they leaked at the closure.


Great Value from Walmart seems pretty decent. Wife puts chips and such in my lunch, lost count of how many times I have forgot to leave a tiny part unzipped before trying to squeeze excess air out.


Johnwb said:


> the vacuum seal bags might be too think to "eat through"


Wonder if a wax moth larva would drown before it got through


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> I bought some knock off "zip lock" bags from Amazon and they leaked at the closure. Might have been OK if I didnt also make the slits in the side! End of that!


same here but mine were from Co-op, never again. I had to put duct tape over the entire closure just to make sure they stayed closed.

ETA, I got the 1 gal feeder pails I can put over a hole on the lid. But this first fall using them I found that our nights were too cold and the bees seemed to eat the syrup quicker when it was in the baggies right over the frames.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

I just tried the baggie, ziplock.... BTW if a quart bag drops from the deck railing onto the deck it Will bust open 😖. Bees cleaned it in a matter of an hr. Just hope they were all My bees and no robbery comes.
I used a sewing Pin and poked about 20 holes in it, some I pulled up a little on them so the hole is just slightly bigger.
You have to see a drop of it come out for them to get it.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Baggie feeding - GregB trashy style.
Any zip bag can be reused - hot cereal, flour, trail mix, etc. The bigger the better.

Fill, close the zip tight, lay with the holes down.
Ensure that the zip line is NOT leaking - obviously important.

Some syrup will drip initially, which gets the bees' attention right away.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Lazy beekeepers let the bees take care of making the holes


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> .................
> Lazy beekeepers let the bees take care of making the holes


Making two pricks is still too much work (mostly spent looking around for the tool), indeed.
You won, @jtgoral! 

But I am so cheap, I end up working too much on the balance to make up for the cheapness.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Baggie feeding - GregB trashy style.
> Any zip bag can be reused - hot cereal, flour, trail mix, etc. The bigger the better.
> 
> Fill, close the zip tight, lay with the holes down.
> ...


how often do you refill the bags? how long does it take to have the bees to empty the bags?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> how often do you refill the bags? how long does it take to have the bees to empty the bags?


Well, with me I only have the time on weekends, as a rule.

So, usually, I go around and refill the bags then.
Usually by then the bags are empty.

I do know that a strong colony will empty my trashy bags in 2-3 days.
Typically, a single fix is about 0.5-1 gallon at once (when it is a true feeding time and I really load them up).

A smaller mini-nuc works on a smaller bag for about a week.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

well I am no longer in the TF group lol. Not that I thought that was a necessity.
I knew I had mites(see previous posts) so ordered Oxicilic acid and a sugar roll kits. I am sad to say that I had 7 times the threshold for treating. chalk that up to my busyness and not checking on mite thresholds like I should have. I hope that with the cooling temps and winter die off that the treatment does them well and they can make it through the winter. I would not be surprised if they die off this winter but my fingers are crossed. hope for a warm day next week to check the other two hives and treat if needed. todays high is 45.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> I am sad to say that I had *7 times the threshold for treating.*


Most likely your bees are doomed.
But not much to lose now - treat and see.

The next year I'd recommend to proactively treat as a part of the *bee acquisition and propagation.*
Not be waiting until September/October.

Even though I am treating in October/November - the most important part was brood-less treatments done in June/July.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Most likely your bees are doomed.
> But not much to lose now - treat and see.


Why do you say the bees are likely doomed? Though I feel the same way but have no idea why.
Is it that the mites are taking so much energy from feeding on the bees, and they will still be just weak and rundown, and they are the ones that have to survive the cold?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> Why do you say the bees are likely doomed? Though I feel the same way but have no idea why.
> Is it that the mites are taking so much energy from feeding on the bees, and they will still be just weak and rundown, and they are the ones that have to survive the cold?


Most of your *winter bees* have been damaged and will have short live spans.
They need to be able to live 5-6 months and raise new spring replacements next year.

At the levels of mite infestations now - the winter cluster will die mid-winter IF they make it that far.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> At the levels of mite infestations now - the winter cluster will die mid-winter IF they make it that far.


So if they all die, and if I have the hope of saving the honey from them, how do I know mid winter that they all have died, so that I can protect the honey and comb from small hive beetles(i have seen a few in this hive) and wax moths? or is there no real danger once it freezes?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> So if they all die, and if I have the hope of saving the honey from them, how do I know mid winter that they all have died, so that I can protect the honey and comb from small hive beetles(i have seen a few in this hive) and wax moths? or is there no real danger once it freezes?


Beatles/moths are a non-concern mid-winter.
It is cold.

This is how I used to harvest my honey - when I was TF.
I just go around once per month every winter - check bees - harvest honey where the bees died (which was most of the hives). I got lots of honey every winter.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Johnwb said:


> So if they all die, and if I have the hope of saving the honey from them, *how do I know mid winter that they all have died*, so that I can protect the honey and comb from small hive beetles(i have seen a few in this hive) and wax moths? or is there no real danger once it freezes?


A flir works good.
I think the new Apples have an app for the "flur like" pics.
stethoscope.
I have quilt boxes most of the time warm under the shavings is alive.

the cold will keep the frames and honey till spring.
make sure mice cannot get in.
IF discovered dead, I bring in clean up that week, even if feb.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> how do I know mid winter that they all have died,


You open the lid and look.
Well, here again your hive design gets in your way (maybe then get the infrared sensor).
I simply open and look through the plastic or I under the burlap.
It really is that simple.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> You open the lid and look.
> Well, here again your hive design gets in your way (maybe then get the infrared sensor).
> I simply open and look through the plastic or I under the burlap.
> It really is that simple.


yet another drawback to touching hive bars..... lol


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Johnwb said:


> yet another drawback to touching hive bars..... lol


maybe the touching TB hive folks did not "need" to look.


GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

If upper half of Layens frame is filled with food there's no need to look for couple months IMO...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> If upper half of Layens frame is filled with food there's no need to look for couple months IMO...


The issue there is you never know where the cluster will be in a month.
Without a quick monthly verification, you may find them dead during the very next check.

IF they already start the winter at the very top (possible) - they will be eating at wood before the couple of months expires.
Especially if the cluster is hammered by the mites - they tend to come up very quickly as they become small and try to stay warm, best they can by moving up.

Dropping in an emergency sugar pancake by around mid-December/XMas works for me for such cases.
Some bees start on it right away as they are already high.
Others don't bother the pancake until March/April.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

GregB said:


> Some bees start on it right away as they are already high.
> Others don't bother the pancake until March/April.


I agree, I have had 3 Layens hives going into winter and once again I have one that chose to start at the top and work their way down. I was considering last season to re-queen the hive that started at the top but all of them got new queens this summer thru splits or supercedure and anyway the hive this year is not the one that did it last year.

I thought I might be able to select this tendency away but I am not so confident that a method of culling the queens would reliably work, I will do that anyway though. As a result, I just deal with it, place sugar bricks above when the weather turns and don't worry too much.

Alive in spring is my only goal, and if that means sugar bricks then so be it, sugar it is. If that means, like last year, I have to go in on warm winter days to add more or asses the situation, then that is what I do.

ETA -20C last night so bricks in my area went on a couple of weeks ago.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

Are sugar bricks or fondant better?
I would add that while I am Langs now, I'll be going to some Layens hopefully next year. 
I think I'll make fondant this year to see how they do


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Tigger19687 said:


> Are sugar bricks or fondant better?


I think you will get people in both camps, I have no source to buy fondant unless I go to a bee supply store and that is way too expensive, so I use sugar bricks. Making fondant is a pain in the patootie.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

ursa_minor said:


> I think you will get people in both camps, I have no source to buy fondant unless I go to a bee supply store and that is way too expensive, so I use sugar bricks. Making fondant is a pain in the patootie.


Really? gee I better think twice about making mine then. It seemed easy enough, I have a candy thermometer and I've made Carmel before. <---- this is not supposed to sound fresh 😁


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Tigger19687 said:


> Really? gee I better think twice about making mine then. It seemed easy enough, I have a candy thermometer and I've made Carmel before. <---- this is not supposed to sound fresh 😁


A candy board is different than fondant, are you talking candy board? Fondant, if not made properly can look just fine in the house, placed on the top of a warm hive of bees it can melt. Some people can make it just fine, I can make fondant I make most of my own candy during the holiday including caramels ( they are great aren't they?). I am hesitant to use it because I cannot be sure that once placed on a warm hive it would not melt and run down between the frames.

I have moved from MC sugar to bricks. In the winter, when adding more dry sugar it was problematic because the sugar that remained in the hive was hard and situated across the top of the frames in chunks, the paper underneath was full of holes so I needed to place another paper on top and try to pour sugar in the dips and hollows made by the hard chunks without it running down to the bottom of the hive. The nice thing about the bricks is that I can break off a size I need and pop it in quickly. I don't wait until all the sugar is consumed before adding more because the weather might not co-operate and my window of opportunity to actually open the hive might not happen again for months. I always go to the hives armed with more sugar chunks and if there is room, add another one for insurance.

Everyone needs to understand their own weather and act accordingly.,


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> I have one that chose to start at the top.........
> I thought I might be able to select this tendency away........


Unsure you can.

In fact, this is not the worst trait possible to worry too much about.
Like you said, top feed resolves this and is easy/cheap enough.

If anything - *unseasonably late brooding *is a trait get rid of, as an example.
Even top feed may not save these fools.
I got three young queens doing this so far - they my out-select themselves (feed or no feed).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tigger19687 said:


> Are sugar bricks or fondant better?


Whatever is easiest/cheapest for you - is better.
That is the only criteria.

I got a supply of commercial fondant I am working through.
The only reason I do it - I got it for free.
Not because it is "better".

If need to do sugar - I'd do pre-made sugar pancakes, for ease of installation in field.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

Thanks. I just looked up reviews on fondant. Many said that if you had a winter warm-up that it started to melt. I don't want to chance that.
I'll do the sugar in comb and make the bricks to slip in later to cover them if they run dry.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> The issue there is you never know where the cluster will be in a month.
> Without a quick monthly verification, you may find them dead during the very next check.


some what disagree.
there have been studies showing 1 mm per day of honey consumption, so if the frame is 1/2 full then in a month they most probable will be 30MM up from the 1/2 way point.
IMO you do not need to check every month.

granted robbing, warm winter etc can cause a difference.
My point was an experienced keeped on a same Apiary site CAN look in late aug or early sept and be fine till spring based on previous consumption and empirical data..
And I stand by the statement, rare I break the seal in nov,dec,jan,feb, march I may on light ones look in.
they either are ready for winter or not, the nots are dealt with in late Aug here in my locale.

IF you have a warmer locale and do not have issues once the seal is broken, then for you winter checks are feasible.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> some what disagree.
> there have been studies showing 1 mm per day of honey consumption, so if the frame is 1/2 full then in a month they most probable will be 30MM up from the 1/2 way point.
> IMO you do not need to check every month.


1mm/day is a common theoretical point often used.

Here is a practical point - these pictures.
A smaller cluster (typical when it is hammered by the mites) will quickly mine upwards thru the honey and hit the ceiling.
Smaller cluster seems more desperate to move up faster - this is because they are trying to stay warm.

In cold climate a smallish cluster often times cannot even consume the honey available right next to it (because they cannot warm it up).

Dry feed available right above may still save the bees. 
Often enough it does work.
While I was trying to be 100% chem-free - this was a very common scenario.
@Johnwb is in a similar boat this season - non-treated bees (and probably not resistant either).


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> 1mm/day is a common theoretical point often used.
> 
> Here is a practical point - these pictures.
> A smaller cluster (typical when it is hammered by the mites) will quickly mine upwards thru the honey and hit the ceiling.
> ...


well the cold has hit here in NE it went from 60 to now 19F today and will stay this way for a week.
lots of live and learn this year and we will see who survives the winter or not.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

-22C last night, 2 feet of snow, winter is here.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Up side, the hives are well on their way to being buried in snow for insulation.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> -22C last night, 2 feet of snow, winter is here.


Some serious business, not for us the wimps down South. 
First snow of the season today; few flakes and they will surely melt in the morning.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

GregB said:


> Some serious business, not for us the wimps down South.
> First snow of the season today; few flakes and they will surely melt in the morning.


It is typical of Nov. to get a few days of very cold, it will be -9C by next week. I am just glad it is not -30C, we have had that before with no snow which is worse. At least the high amount of snow before the extreme cold protects the hives and my fruit trees. The trees don't like that level of cold and no insulation over the root zone. I did peak into one of the Layens that has no upper entrance when we had an upswing of daytime temps. and so far no condensation on the plastic over the sugar bricks except in the extreme corner. Looks good.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

doing insulation, Dr. leo from what I saw does just the top of the frames with a pillow. what about the follower board?
I know the bees are not clustered close to that last farme so does it matter?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> doing insulation, Dr. leo from what I saw does just the top of the frames with a pillow. *what about the follower board?*
> I know the bees are not clustered close to that last farme so does it matter?


Insulated is better, of course, if you can have it.

But anything works, in a pinch.
I got some straight plywood too, and I still sleep well.

Heck, a simple piece of cardboard stapled to a frame makes a very good follower board.
Make it 2–3-layer cardboard - just got yourself a good, insulated board.
People complicate this thing - unnecessarily (but as usually).

What people forget (or more likely unaware of) - what really matters is early spring (Feb/March) where the remaining bees are trying to raise replacement.
That is when the tight and well insulated quarters really matter (including the preferably insulated boards).


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

I used some old towels that drape over the follower board but leave a small gap at the bottom.
Noticed on Saturday that there was A LOT of dead bees in hive one that had the mite overload a few weeks ago.
it is now 50 degrees and calm, hive 2 and 3 have bees that are active and out today in the "warmth" hive 1 had no bees flying in and out and I took the chance because I was thinking they were all dead after the first freeze. and I found about 20 or so bees, so before Christmas I am guessing the rest will be dead.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> Noticed on Saturday that there was A LOT of dead bees in hive one that had the mite overload a few weeks ago.


Bad sign.
By now you should have only winter bees left - if they are already dying in volumes - they have been mite-damaged.
Only question of time, I think.



Johnwb said:


> and I found about 20 or so bees,


To be sure - 20 is not a lot and is rather normal.
200-300 would be significant and worrying at this time (but only potentially).


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Bad sign.
> By now you should have only winter bees left - if they are already dying in volumes - they have been mite-damaged.
> Only question of time, I think.
> 
> ...


20 LIVE bees, most are dead.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> *20 LIVE bees,* most are dead.


Oh.
Your hive is dead.
20 live bees ~ dead hive.
Even 2000 live bees in November ~ just about a dead hive (just later).

Feel free to harvest the honey - unless you fed them (then it would be sugar honey).


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

So far I am liking the set up I used as shown on a few of the Russian you tube videos.
7 frames in the centre or near centre of the hive, follower of 2.5" styrofoam on each side of the brood nest, sugar bricks and a plastic cover, over that some wool blankets and then the quilt box. The followers do not go to the bottom of the hive but are up about 4" and I am noticing that the condensation is going under the followers and into the extra space, no condensation above the bee cluster on the plastic film.

So far, so good the cluster is way down on the frames, we will see what happens when the temps drop to -30C or lower. 🤞


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> So far I am liking the set up I used as shown on a few of the Russian you tube videos.
> 7 frames in the centre or near centre of the hive, follower of 2.5" styrofoam on each side of the brood nest, sugar bricks and a plastic cover, over that some wool blankets and then the quilt box. The followers do not go to the bottom of the hive but are up about 4" and I am noticing that the condensation is going under the followers and into the extra space, no condensation above the bee cluster on the plastic film.
> 
> So far, so good the cluster is way down on the frames, we will see what happens when the temps drop to -30C or lower. 🤞


I think you can find some Russian videos showing styrofoam instead of wool blankets or pillows and instead of a quilt box.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

jtgoral said:


> I think you can find some Russian videos showing styrofoam instead of wool blankets or pillows and instead of a quilt box.


Thanks, I do use styrofoam above as well. My use of the word quilt box was just to simplify explaining my multi layered upper insulation. I do use old down filled pillows. I find that the pillows are light and supply a great level of insulation if they are wrapped in plastic to keep them from getting wet.

ETA I guess I should not use the words quilt box as that infers the wood shaving ventilated boxes that are normally used. My upper box is* not* ventilated or used to to let out moisture or absorb moisture.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Oh.
> Your hive is dead.
> 20 live bees ~ dead hive.
> Even 2000 live bees in November ~ just about a dead hive (just later).
> ...


I am going to hold off on harvest for now and see what spring brings.
might use the frames for swarm traps or the two hives that I hope make it through the winter.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Johnwb said:


> I am going to hold off on harvest for now and see what spring brings.


I did that my first year and neglected to remember that I am in Canola country. As a result I had many, many frames of solid crystallized honey that was totally unusable except as bee feed and even then they didn't do a good job of cleaning it up.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> I did that my first year and neglected to remember that I am in Canola country. As a result I had many, many frames of solid crystallized honey that was totally unusable except as bee feed and even then they didn't do a good job of cleaning it up.


No Canola raised here, corn and soybeans mostly.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

so we have had some cold temps in december. last week wind chills got to -50F a few nights with day time actual highs at -11.
todays high is 50 and I was supprised to see my one hive at lunch the bees where out around the entrance.
is this ok? thought once they hunkered down for the winter that was it?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Johnwb said:


> so we have had some cold temps in december. last week wind chills got to -50F a few nights with day time actual highs at -11.
> todays high is 50 and I was supprised to see my one hive at lunch the bees where out around the entrance.
> is this ok? thought once they hunkered down for the winter that was it?


42F in Chicagoland and bees were flying when the hive was in the sun. I like local mutts


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> ............
> is this ok? thought once they hunkered down for the winter that was it?


Why, sure.
They may be asleep, but they are not dead.
Though I prefer they stay inside - too many go out and never make it back.
I like those that stay inside better.


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