# Purple Eye Stage Partially Uncapped



## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Hived a swarm about a month ago. About half the larvae reaches purple eye stage and they partially uncap it. What's going on?


----------



## mxr618 (Apr 23, 2008)

Yeah...I've got a new queen (Super Yooper) and a on a brood frame 10-12 larvae are uncapped with purple eyes. It's spotty on the frame.

Anyone have any ideas?


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

I've seen several of those myself... I thought they were just drones and since the colony isn't bringing in any more nectar from outside, they were tossing the drones so they don't have to feed them.

I dunno, not really. I'd appreciate an answer from experience!


----------



## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Can't say I've seen the uncapping phase, but a few times have seen the aftermath - drone pupa empty shells on the landing board. 

In the early stages of starvation, drone pupa are cannibilized by recycling the nutrients of their juices and discarding the empty shell. Gruesome thought, but drones are expendable in the starvation situation.

Feed that colony - pronto.

Walt


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

pine_ridge_farms said:


> About half the larvae reaches purple eye stage and they partially uncap it. What's going on?


Varroa Sensitive Hygiene?


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Ah... VSH is a more encouraging thought than starvation, since I'm feeding nectar. Can the bees 'smell' varroa on larva that otherwise seem to be developing well? I've got an open mated Russian queen in one hive, and the other was sold as "survivor" stock that hadn't been medicated in any way for several years, so varroa sensitivity is possible.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Tara, I was talking about PRF's question. Your situation seems different and I would agree with wcubed.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bald brood, perhaps? It's supposedly unusual in the U.S., being caused by the lesser wax moth who chews through the cappings of brood and then the worker bees chew away some of the cappings leaving the pupae exposed.


----------



## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

First thought I had was VSH but I've pulled alot of those pupae out and haven't seen a mite yet. This is one of my Nucs that is going to be going into winter and I have seen a few wax moth larva in the box. :s Time will tell. I gave them some more bees to help with the wax moth. Entrance is 1/2 already 1/2 inch.

Thanks
Dan


----------



## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Is is possible that the comb was attached to an adjacent frame comb, and that when you lifted the frame up the caps pulled off the pupae cells?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

This certainly possible sometimes I'm sure, but it would be pretty rare I imagine and therefore not likely. One really has to scrape capped brood to expose it. Though it is not hard to do.


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Omie said:


> Is is possible that the comb was attached to an adjacent frame comb, and that when you lifted the frame up the caps pulled off the pupae cells?


Also, scraping wouldn't remove the cap in a perfect circle, only on select cells, while leaving all the surrounding ones intact.


----------



## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Well, I didn't mean _scraped_ off, as in friction/tearing- that would leave a mess. (like when i scrape/uncap drone pupae on my drone frames with an uncapping fork)

But if the caps were stuck to the adjacent frame and the caps _pulled_ off when the frame was lifted....? Then I'd think they might come off perhaps more like what you describe. Just speculating.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not a bad speculation, but that doesn't account for beespace. The combs don't touch where brood is in the frames. Or, at least it shouldn't.


----------



## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Saw it in one of my other hives today. Not a lot of it just in a few spots. I'm wondering if the dearth we are in might have something to do with decreased wax production and they just aren't finishing the cap or they are decapping a small circle over the brood much like they do with queen cells and are using the wax in another spot. I'll feed these nucs heavy the next few weeks and see what happens.


----------



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

My vote is for VSH characteristics in the workers.


----------



## acb's (Apr 14, 2007)

This thread got my attention because of these. Found these in a cutout I did 2 weeks ago. Feral bees in a wall of a home. Possibly a little less than average food stores for the size of the colony and just at the end of nectar flow for the area. Didn't know the 'why' of this condition. As far as I can remember it's the first time I've noticed it, either in feral or in our hives. Could have been there before and just hadn't seen it. There were several more in this patch of comb. 
I don't have any answers, I just thought I'd offer pictures of the condition. I do know that there were no cappings pulled off.
Arvin










This is the colony.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm not sure, but on close examination, it looks to me like the caps were chewed open. Not that they weren't completed. Does it look like that to anyone else?


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I hadn't really opened this thread until now. The reason I decided to check out this thread, and now have decided to post to it, is this:

This morning I went out to refresh the pollen substitute patties on my full-size hives. I pulled a few frames from each hive to see how their brood was doing. I observed something I've never seen before, in all my years of beekeeping. On just one comb face (almost solid with sealed worker brood), in each of two different hives, it appeared that the bees had removed the cappings from almost all of the sealed worker brood, but they left the cocoon's intact. You can see the white pupa in all of the cells, but this is something entirely different from "bald brood". Fairly regularly I've seen areas of brood where the bees completely uncap advanced worker brood, but they usually remove the entire capping, including the cocoon.

I am very curious to know why they do this.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

In the lower part of acb's photo, is that cannibalised brood? Looks like partily eaten pupae to me.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Yes, those look like partially cannibalized pupa.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, has there been a prolnged drought in IL or something? A dearth perhaps? Canniblism is a sign that the colony needs a protien source, doesn't it?


----------



## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

It would be interesting to know if the various hives mentioned with this symptom are being fed, and if so, are they are being fed the same things- sugar syrup?- HFcorn syrup?- pollen patties? I assume they all have access to plain water in any case.


----------



## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

I had been feeding sugar syrup but in the last week and a half I haven't had time to get the feeders all filled up so they have gone without. The picture that was posted looks exactly like what I have going on.


----------



## acb's (Apr 14, 2007)

sqkcrk,
No prolonged drought in the area the cutout was in. Good flow had been over about 2 weeks. The colony was located in the wall of a home in a small town in south central Illinois in hilly, woodsy, prairie, agricultural country. In other words, there was plenty of available forage during the flow.

Omie,
Plenty available water.

We've had a fair to good flow in most locations around here. It was a decent size colony, not very large, with an average or a little less than average amount of brood. Yes, those 2 were definitely cannibalized.
Arvin


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Omie,

I am feeding my colony 1:1 syrup--a quart or two a couple times a week, trying to keep up brood rearing without backfilling the broodnest. They're drawing foundation and storing something in it (probably the syrup), so I'm assuming they're not starving. Also, I just have a few exposed purple-eyes on a frame--maybe about 10 or so, not hundreds like there must be on the frame pictured above. And I've never seen one that looked cannabalized (haven't been looking for it, but haven't seen it).

I'll take a closer look this weekend.


----------



## beardcrumbs (Apr 18, 2010)

I have seen this in at least three of the four hives I have. They are all 1st year hives, two from the same source, the third from a swarm unrelated to my hives. I have not seen any mention in any text that could explain it, but since this is my first year I didn't know if it is normal or not. I'm glad I found this thread. I have observed it off and on since mid April, when I got my first hive. I can't say that I have seen any that looked cannibalised and I have seen mostly purple eyed and just before purple eye and some older larva.


----------



## Kurt B. (Aug 1, 2010)

I have the same thing in one of my hives. I am hoping that it is VSH, although I do have a pretty high Varoa count in this hive. 

Here is a link to Scientific Beekeeping. There is a picture about 1/4 of the way down the page of VSH. 

http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=40


----------



## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

After my first posting, realized I should have made another comment: Just because you see capped honey that you think should be enough, doesn't mean the colony is satisfied with their reserve level. They will take corrective action before they run out of reserve. They don't wait untill the problem is acute.

Have not seen the effects of either VSH or worker brood cannibalizing, but Dennis Murrell in WY told me in conversation that small cell promoted opening of V mite cells for clean up. Perhaps he could shed some light on this discussion. 

Walt


----------



## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

I have pulled in the neighborhood of 100 brood out of their decapped cells and the conclusion is. Wax moth larva. Could be some VSH going on as well but, about 1 in 10 of the decapped brood cells will have a wax moth larva in it. 

-Dan


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Like I said, bald brood, which is due to wax moth.


----------

