# Re-combining a caught swarm?



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

This is a follow on from my previous post about my hive swarming. I posted under a new subject as I wanted to make sure all you experts opened it again.

So I think my hive swarmed and I think I've managed to get them to stay put in a new hive body. Tomorrow I will go to the only local store and get more hive bodies and frames.

If I put the new hive on top of the old one and add additional bodies, will they successfully re-merge into one super-strong hive?


----------



## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

A lot of I thinks to give much of a definitive answer but yes you can combine hives, newspaper method being my preferred. If the swarm came out of the old hive, how long have they been separate to make you think they'd now be super-strong? Why are you looking for a super-strong hive in the fall, I wouldn't anticipate much comb to be drawn? If space wasn't the initial issue for them to swarm, you may only succeed in creating a bigger swarm.


----------



## Bee Havin (Mar 1, 2017)

Bees don't normally swarm unless they have made provisions for a new queen. My concern would be that there is, or will be a returning mated queen in the original hive that I was going to reunite the swarm with. If it was me, I would be sure that there is no un hatched brood and no sign of a queen in the original hive before combining. I think I saw in the other thread that there was honey stores in original hive. I think I would remove that, and then reunite, if in deed that's what I wanted. My underlying concern is why they swarmed. Given your previous description of a full hive still, minus the brood, but empty brood cells, I would be a little hesitant yet to combine. As to how. If the original hive is indeed queenless, you really can't go wrong with the news paper method. Even I can do that. ( place a single layer of news paper between the hives you want to unite, use your hive tool to make a few 3 or 4 inch slits in the paper and place the other hive on top.) In a day or two remove the paper and your done. 
I'm not saying I'm right. It's just what I would do if it was me.
GOOD LUCK!!!


----------



## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Crispy, reading your original thread, it sounds like you don't really know for sure that the swarm is from your hive. You need to first figure that detail out. You don't need to be in a hurry to combine them back. You need to inspect the original hive closely and look for queen cells, which could be a week or more after a swarm before they start to emerge. If there are abundant queen cells, then yes it swarmed. If there's no swarm cells, look for eggs. 3 days after a queen leaves in a swarm, all the eggs would be hatched. If there are eggs, you still have a queen in there. If you just combine now with queen cells present, the queen could just swarm again. 

If it was me, and all I wanted was to combine the two back together, I would tear down ALL the queen cells, (one is easy to miss) and check back in a week to tear down the emergency cells made. All of them. Again, it's easy to miss one. Bees can cover one up, especially an emergency cell that's small. If you check for emergency cells and find none, you may have missed a swarm cell and have a virgin queen in there by then. While this is going on, the new swarm is building you comb and extra room. I would combine anytime after all the cells are gone, making sure there was room for brood and incoming stores.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

After digging through the original hive yesterday I did find at least one opened queen cell. So the swarm is most likely mine and they prepared for swarming in the usual manner. However, all of the "experts" I've talked to have said that it is unusual for them to swarm now.

I think the best course of action is to let each continue independently for three weeks and then check for eggs, larva and capped brood. If some are present in both, then I'll have to figure out what to do.

If the capped brood in the original hive are all drones, that means that my new queen is still a virgin and as long as I can find her and kill her, then I can merge using the method recommended above.


----------



## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

With only one or two cells I'd lean more toward supersedure, I've found swarm and emergency to create multiple cells, 6+. But I too would let it play out for a few weeks and overwinter two hives/nucs or combine if necessary. Keeping a spare nuc around is a handy thing indeed.


----------



## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Crispy, you write one open cell is found. How many other cells did you see? If only a couple, as Eikel writes, maybe a supersedure. In a supersedure, the old queen could leave with some bees sometimes instead of being killed off. They can also swarm about anytime till late if they are overcrowded. You don't need to be in a hurry to combine them. It would be hard to find that virgin emerged queen right now since one has emerged, and it would need to be gone. You are gaining bees towards winter with the swarm queen laying.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

I didn't see any others, but then I didn't pull every frame out. The open queen cell that I found was at the top of a frame, not the bottom. 

Could they have been preparing a cell to move an egg into? How does that work? I can imagine that the new queen is already out and about.

Also, how long does the swarm cluster hang out in a spot? I saw them on Saturday but I have no idea how long they had been there.


----------



## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Crispy, can you identify a queen cup (not yet used) from an empty used queen cell? If it was an empty recent queen cell and at the top with no others in the hive, it should be a supersedure cell, where they are replacing the old queen for some reason. If so, then it would be best to let it play out, and hopefully they can produce a mated queen for you. It's pretty late in the year, but you have the old queen laying eggs for brood building. You still have the old queen to re introduce if needed later. 

According to my own understanding, they don't generally move an egg into the cell, the queen lays in it. With a supersedure, the old queen can hang around till the new one is emerged, and I have heard it can be in there till after the new one is laying. If they produce a new laying queen, I would go with that one, end the old queen and combine them again.

A swarm can stay just a short few minutes, to days. I am guessing that if a swarm stays long enough to start building comb and the queen lays eggs, they'd stay permanent in the spot. That's rare.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

Okay, I was in the swarm hive. It is five days after swarm. The bees have drawn almost six frames of new comb and are socking away the sugar syrup. There is empty comb but I saw no sign of the queen, nor any eggs and there is definitely no larva. Discouraging. 

Could they have superseded the old queen because she was not laying? But the foragers followed her to the new swarm/hive anyway?

I need to pull apart the original hive next. Assuming that if I find any eggs there, it has to be from the new queen (if present) right? How long from egg to larva?


----------



## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

An important beekeeping rule is "give it another week" which fits many applications. The queen may not have started yet. Not seeing a queen doesn't mean there's not one there all the time. They can be sneaky.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

Yeah but... I'm on a countdown to doomsday correct?

How long are these bees going to be around? If they swarmed, they were already on the downslope of their lifecycle.

I have a source for new mated queens. If I could find the old queen and the virgin queen, I'd kill them, combine hives and re-queen. But I can't find the darn girls...


----------



## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Oh yeah, It could be that the old queen was failing and now stopped, but don't rush it. 

If you find eggs in the original hive, eggs hatch after 3 days, so a laying queen was in there 3 days ago if eggs are found. A hive can supersede and leave the old queen alone till the new one is laying. I have heard of mother daughter queens existing together for a time.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

But they swarmed? They wouldn't leave without a queen would they? And the swarm has taken to the new hive and is getting busy. Would they do that without a queen?


----------



## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I don't think there would be a swarm without a queen. Bees, even without a queen though, can gather and build if necessary. It's just what they do. A queen from a swarm could take longer than 5 days to lay. Other signs to look for would be setting up for a brood nest, like having groups of cells in adjacent combs that are all cleaned out and polished up for the queen. 

It could be that the swarm was a virgin queen from that cell. Maybe the colony swarmed earlier and this was an after swarm. Other empty cells could have been torn down by the time you looked. 

I see queens all the time when I am inspecting my hives, but it seems when I am desperate to find a queen, that's usually when I can't. Patience is a good quality in beekeeping. I have read many threads where someone didn't want to wait a few days and does things to set them back further. You may just buy a new queen and find eggs when you want to release it. 

A good thing about 2 hives, you could take eggs and brood and put it in the swarm hive. If they make queen cells, they need a queen. Sometimes the frame of eggs and brood will be where the new queen finally starts laying. 

Hang on a few more days.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

Opened up the original hive. Remember, all eight frame mediums. The bottom two boxes are a vast wasteland. Open cells everywhere. A tiny amount of honey. Not many bees hanging out down there. Didn't see any eggs. No larva. No brood.

Top two boxes are solid honey.

On ONE frame only, there were maybe three or four cells that could have been queen cells.

I did see some of my drones still in the hive. So not all drones have been cast out.

Should I put a queen in a queen cage in there?


----------



## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I'd decide next week and see if the swarm is laying. You would need to assure no queens in the two before adding a new queen, and you probably have a queen at some stage in each one. A virgin probably in the original, and a laying queen in the swarm. Next week......


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

So, a related question. In my swarm hive, the bees appear to be drawing comb great and they're taking syrup and bringing in pollen. But they are putting in all of the drawn comb they have. They don't appear to be "reserving" a center section of any frame for the queen to lay in. That seemed wrong.

Thoughts?


----------



## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Swarms are great comb building machines. They need comb so they are programed to build after a swarm. They will put nectar everywhere that's available, but will clear cells when a queen is ready to lay, moving nectar to new comb, etc. You write that there is no brood of any kind in the original hive. They either swarmed a couple weeks before you caught this current one, which would then be an after swarm, or the queen failed right after they made a few supercedure cells. Brood takes 3 weeks from egg to emergence, so it's been a while since you had a laying queen. I would lean towards a virgin in both hives now, if they aren't clearing for a queen to lay. I have seen it often, they will fill everything with nectar in the brood area after a swarm, or split, and open up areas of cells just before a queen is ready. It could have been a supersedure and one virgin swarmed away, though I don't know how possible that is to happen. 

One of your problems is, that you have to be sure a colony is hopelessly queenless before you can introduce a new one. If you could spot and remove the queen, fine. Virgin queens are difficult to spot, and seem to be very bashful in my experience. I have looked in nucs and swear there's no queen, only to have eggs and brood a week later.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

Understood.

My main problem with virgin queens is that everyone in my local club says that I've got a really bad chance of them getting mated now. Most of their drones have been evicted.

I just don't want to wait around hoping my virgin(s) get mated and start laying only to go past a point of no return. I have a chance of getting a mated queen now. I may not in a couple weeks. If nothing else, putting a queen in the old hive would give me a definitive answer if I'm hopelessly queenless or have a virgin queen. If the new queen starts laying, I'm good. If they kill her, then I'm in the same place I am now except a few $ lighter...


----------



## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

If you still have drones, there's a chance it will succeed. You're about the same latitude as me, and I have drones in some hives. If the swarm had a virgin queen, it would most likely be mating or mated already and maybe laying next week.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

I have a source for mated queens that I can get NOW. He's going to sell them or get rid of them by October, so that creates my urgency.

Does anyone have a method for truly determining if you are queenless? 

Or, alternatively, how can I find the virgin queen?


----------



## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

It's still September next week. I don't know of another way to check for a queen other than , look, give eggs and early brood and see what they do with it, or shake all the bees through a queen excluder, but a virgin or non laying queen could slip through one.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

Latest on the Swarm hive. Bees drawing comb like crazy. Storing sugar syrup and pollen. They look to be filling some frames in the correct pattern with honey on the edges and the center reserved. Also, we found the big fat queen. So... she may start laying soon. No eggs as of yet. I'm hoping they swarmed because of a honey bound situation and not because she stopped laying.

But if she doesn't start laying soon, I will requeen that hive.


----------



## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

It's only been a week since the swarm, if I am not mistaken, and it's not unusual for a swarm with old mated queen to take a week to build comb and start laying. Your other queen could be laying the end of next week if successful at mating. If you saw cleaned out cells surrounded by honey and pollen in the swarm hive, you'll see good things next week. The swarm will lay well to build up after the swarm, so if you let it go a couple weeks and combine, you will be fine. I'd see if that original hive virgin queen lays good. You may want to keep that one if you combine them.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

I am hopeful that the swarm hive will take off and I won't have to do anything with it like you say. My big issue is timing. I have a local source for a mated queen NOW. I won't have it in a couple weeks.

Here's one unanswered question. I caught swarm one week ago today. But the original hive is 3+ weeks queenless according to everything I've read due to all brood being completely gone. That timing doesn't add up...?


----------



## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

If you have access to a queen, I'd consider rechecking the original hive for a queen and if none, adding the available queen to it. I consider 28 days queenless as a critical milestone toward creating a laying worker hive.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

That whole "if none" part is the problem. I haven't found one yet. I've been looking and looking. Even if there is one, it is likely to be a virgin. 

But I'm about to put a new queen in there anyway and see what happens. Worst case is they kill her.

I'm not good at waiting patiently...


----------



## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I am hopeful that the swarm hive will take off and I won't have to do anything with it like you say. My big issue is timing. I have a local source for a mated queen NOW. I won't have it in a couple weeks.
> 
> Here's one unanswered question. I caught swarm one week ago today. But the original hive is 3+ weeks queenless according to everything I've read due to all brood being completely gone. That timing doesn't add up...?


I already forgot that point. Not sure that I would have an answer to that. I know that when queen cells are built swarming, they aren't all built at the same time and could span over a week in startup time. I have seen capped swarm cells, with newer cells just started, so the queens would emerge over the course of a week or more. The original queen could stop laying before the actual swarm day too. Maybe there was no room to lay and cells were laid in days after the queen last laid worker eggs. Maybe you caught an after swarm, and now there's a late emerged queen in the original hive. Just a guess, but I could see the potential to take a couple weeks for all that to pan out. There are several scenarios that could have happened there. A queen emerges 16 days from being laid, and a worker emerges 20-21 days after being laid. If both queen cell and last worker was laid at the same time, you would now be out of brood.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Crispy said:


> That timing doesn't add up...?


perhaps the swarm came from another hive.

how badly honey bound is the existing hive?


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

It is possible that it was not my swarm, but the proximity (30') would be really unusual. Also, my original hive has little activity even though the population is good. As would be the case if these are all newer bees.

The original hive (four eight frame mediums) is completely full of honey in the top two boxes. The bottom two boxes are getting a little honey now but are completely open where the brood used to be. This is new equipment so the brood area is dark brown and all honey cells are still white.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting. swarms have been known to locate and move into queenless hives and are sometimes accepted without any fighting. it's rare, but within the realm of possibility that you intercepted a swarm that may have been in the process of doing that.

to not find any brood or multiple queen cells just after swarming doesn't make sense and bodes for the assumption that the original hive was queenless or had a failed queen. 

a strange case for sure, thanks again for sharing it. if you don't find eggs very soon in the caught swarm hive consider getting a hold of two queens if you can. yesterday was the equinox so it's going to be a challenge for both colonies to brood up a population of overwintering bees.


----------



## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

If you get a queen and put her in a nuc with some bees and comb from one of the other hives you increase your options. Be careful not to bring another queen into the nuc with the resources.

She should soon produce some brood. Steal some and put it in your original hive, (broodless longest). If they make queen cells, destroy the cells and combine with the nuc.

Same with the swarm with the next available brood.

In the happiest case both the original hives make brood before you test them and you have three hives to decide what to do with this winter.

In the least happy case you wind up with only one hive combined from all three, but it will be a pretty strong one, although a little iffy on winter bees, but way better than nothing.

Just brainstorming- I make no claims of expertise.
Bill


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

New update:

Caught swarm with old queen. Larva and capped brood. So she's laying again.

Old hive with who knows what kind of queen. I found two frames in the bottom box with larva and capped brood. What kind of brood? I don't know. Pic attached.















What say you?


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

fairly solid worker brood cris with a few misses here and there consistent with a newly laying queen. 

way to go, looks like you are queenright in both.


----------



## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

To quote my Jewish friends-
MAZELTOV!
Bill


----------



## Crispy (Aug 23, 2016)

But then it all went to hell the very next day.

Swarm hive started robbing the original hive. I've blocked off the entrance to the smallest hole, but I can't get them to stop. I figure they've wiped them out by now.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It is a very simple fix. Just swap the hive position on them. It would be a fun
experiment to keep on switching until one side won. Be ready to do a combine with
a mated queen or 2 after evening out the hive population after the robbing when the queen cannot
make it. Either way one side has to have a mated queen. And don't feed them syrup in the mean time. Start making Lauri's sugar bricks ready for them this winter. You will need 20 lbs. per hive minimum.


----------

