# Comparing sugar cakes to "loose" sugar feeding



## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

When I started, I made sugar candy for the bees, it was harder to do, so it must be better....
I think I usually over cooked it, some times it didnt really harden. AND I was putting essential oils in it too. 
I fed "mtn camp" sugar last winter, & also this year.
interesting, I fed two hives yesterday. one hive is carrying it out as trash, the other has bees on the ground picking it up where fell through the screened bottom board


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

There is no other method of feeding worse than MC. Any sugar crystals are not moistened by water will be taken out at trash, except for the ones that fall to the bottom and make a mess and attract other pests. With MC you and the bees will need to do a clean up of the hive.

Just the chewing and removal of the newspaper cost additional energy that the bees might elsewhere. 

There are many that switch from mountain camp to blocks but never heard anyone going from blocks to MC.

Beekeepers like to make things as complicated as possible, just keep it simple. There are more important things that need to be done.

No cook sugar blocks; 1/3 cup water in 4lb dry sugar, mix, spread, air dry. that's it!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

FlowerPlanter said:


> There is no other method of feeding worse than MC. Any sugar crystals are not moistened by water will be taken out at trash


True, but if you moisten the sugar with a spray bottle as you are putting it in, it's fine...........


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

snl,,,,:thumbsup:


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Flower Planter that is a big bunch of bull. Making sugar blocks is a lot more work.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Well if I was not corn-fused before I am now. Why this is more fun than watching a fight at a flea market or being in Wal-mart on "Black-Friday. So beekeeping ideas change directions faster than a greyhound with six legs. Sure do welcome some more thoughts and sharing how either has work for you. Guess since I am starting with more than one hive I can try each method and compare. Of course could be like Tech.35058 and each hive behave different.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

FlowerPlanter said:


> There is no other method of feeding worse than MC.


I'm sorry, but I don't agree with any of these points. Regarding keeping it simple, there is nothing simpler (also fast and effective) than properly done MC.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Groundhog do a search of the archives. This has been discussed many times. There are pages of the pros and cons.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Dave Burrup said:


> Groundhog do a search of the archives. This has been discussed many times. There are pages of the pros and cons.


Thanks, Dave. I just did a search and found enough reading for several days. Guess I should have known that any questions that I had had already been addressed.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Groundhwg said:


> Guess I should have known that any questions that I had had already been addressed.


Over and over and over!


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

If your bees were to decide, which would they pick? ;

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...h-a-3-year-old-Photos&p=1226929 - post1226929


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

FlowerPlanter said:


> If your bees were to decide, which would they pick? ;
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...h-a-3-year-old-Photos&p=1226929 - post1226929


Doesn't look like there was enough water used in post #7. I've been using MC for 12+ years and it works very well.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Here's the picture that Ryan posted on the thread above;









Looking at the edges where sugar meet paper you can see what appears to be wet news paper, looking at the sugar it appears to have some moisture to cause some clumping of the sugar. 

Watch your bees on a nice day after you put MC on them. You won't MC them again! 

They don't like it. They don't use it. They take it out as trash!


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Well, I've used the MC method plenty of times without much problem. Getting the newspaper wet helps create "syrup" when the sugar meets the liquid. As condensation increases in the hive, more of the paper gets wet and more "syrup" is created. I've had some late winter inspections where I found a small pool of liquid that the bees were intensely working. Did they remove sugar? Probably. But adding the sugar isn't supposed to give them a solid to work with. If they accepted a solid, we'd never be making 1:1 or 2:1 or whatever:1. 

For me, MC'ing the colony is for when I go out and find out that my heavy hive from 3 weeks ago is now too light for my comfort and I don't have the time to prepare much in order to help them out. Off comes the top, on goes the paper / water / sugar, drop the shim and button up. Fondant works and sugar bricks work but so does properly applied sugar.


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## Frgrasso (Dec 18, 2014)

i like the no cook sugar bricks , Iam 
In and out of the hive in seconds 
And there's no trash to take out by 
The bees , I've never tried the MC 
Method , the bricks always worked 
For me


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Mountain Camp works great for me and has for years. I suspect you are doing it wrong. Wet the newspaper well before pouring in the sugar, then wet the pile well on the outside. There will be no loose granules to carry out. The bottom will collect the hive moisture and will remain uniformly damp, again no loose crystals. I get very strong hives from those that I sugar in January (it was 75 this past weekend, your weather may vary).


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

AstroBee said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't agree with any of these points. Regarding keeping it simple, there is nothing simpler (also fast and effective) than properly done MC.


:thumbsup::thumbsup:



Groundhwg said:


> How does feeding sugar blocks compare to the "mountain camp method" of feeding sugar?


I've tried them all, and It doesn't seem to make any difference to the bees. They both (along with fondant, candy, and sugar "paste") have their advantages, but any of them will keep your bees from starving. Hard to beat the simplicity of Mt Camp though.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

I like fondant better than both. Purchase it from a bakery supplier. The other methods are effective, but I find the MC method messy. The bees like the fondant and it's easy to take the "patties" on and off


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Adam:

I looked at fondant once and like the seemingly easy use of it but the pricing was expensive. I still don't get how people have their bees in a situation where they have to emergency feed. Just feed them an extra bucket in September when the weather is still warm and bees have time to process the syrup.

Jean-Marc


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

jean-marc said:


> Adam:
> 
> I looked at fondant once and like the seemingly easy use of it but the pricing was expensive. I still don't get how people have their bees in a situation where they have to emergency feed. Just feed them an extra bucket in September when the weather is still warm and bees have time to process the syrup.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Fondant is about $2/kg here. I heft the hives and nucs in early spring and only put fondant on the odd one that feels light - usually just a couple of hives per yard. I couldn't agree more that there is no substitute for good fall prep/feeding.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Watch your bees on a nice day after you put MC on them. You won't MC them again!
> 
> They don't like it. They don't use it. They take it out as trash!


Oh my! That is total hogwash. You're simply not doing it right, nor is the picture you reference done right. I have never seen bees drag out MC sugar if done properly. Sure if you pile up dry sugar, then yes bees will drag it out. Done properly, they do not have access to "dry" sugar to haul out.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> Oh my! That is total hogwash. You're simply not doing it right,


http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...sugar-different-results&p=1055990#post1055990

Joseph Clemens; I'm afraid I have a low confidence that much of the dry, granulated, sugar is ever actually consumed by the bees it is fed to.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?306992-can-you-overfeed-sugar&p=1212752#post1212752

Dave Burrup; If you feed dry sugar when the bees have weather warm enough to fly they will haul it out of the hive as trash.

drlonzo; Dry sugar being put into a hive as feed will be hauled out of the hive when not needed. 

beemandan;give them more. They may haul some off but will consume some too.

crofter; Some bees seem to get up onto the sugar early and another hive side by side, has not touched the sugar. Same fall weights. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ar-cakes-or-sugar-syrup&p=1364272#post1364272

enjambres; In warm-ish weather my bees seem to regard dry sugar (cakes or loose) as hive trash that needs to to be removed. You might have better luck feeding so-called winter patties

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...y-sugar-over-the-winter&p=1341610#post1341610

D Coates;I used to put a sheet of newspaper on top of the frames then mist it. I'd pour the sugar on top then mist it too. Within a few days it was rock solid. This was all done under a 2" shim. Mountaincamp method I believe? If they used it though I found many times the center of the mass it was still dry and got hauled out as trash or ended up on the bottom of the hive sometime during the winter. Other times I found the cluster dead wedged up against it as they wouldn't eat it.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ding-dry-sugar-what-gives&p=476283#post476283

sqkcrk;Yeah, dry sugar near the entrance will probably be seen by the bees as not food, but trash to be taken out of the hive.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ut-Bee-candy-sugar-cake&p=1185646#post1185646

mathesonequip; dry sugar is best used as emergency food in cold weather, bellow 0 degrees celcius. in warmer weather the bees often consider it trash and remove it as waste.


Then you've got the mess to clean up in the spring. News paper in the hive and the yard. Left over sugar needs to be gathered and mixed to make syrup. Sugar on the bottom board or under SBB? Any sugar not collected inside or out will attract pests, may aid in early ant build up. 

I wonder if there is any correlation between MC and the having ant problems? All these people making these elaborate ant proof hive stands and ant moats, DE, cinnamon, ant bait...Maybe they might fix their problem by not using MC.


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## 707tothe907 (Mar 20, 2014)

FlowerPlanter, what's your vendetta against mountain camp?

Most of those quotes you reference all talk about dry, loose, granulated sugar. If MC is done right the sugar shouldn't be dry; it should be solid.

For MC you should put down a layer of newspaper and give it a small spritz of water. Put on your volcano of sugar and heavily spritz it.

This should be done during a time of year/location where the daytime temps are below 45, when the bees are not flying. There should also not be a top entrance on the hive.

As the bees eat through the newspaper they reach the sugar. The condensation from lack of winter ventillation constantly keeps the sugar volcano solidified; from the top and from the bottom.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It appears to me that as long as you take steps to keep it from being hauled out for trash, there really is no difference other than the work involved. Both are really some kind of block of sugar when it's said and done. Ants love both. Yellow jackets love both. Bees will eat both. Bees always haul out anything small enough to pick up that they didn't put there. If they could pick up the sugar brick they would haul it out as well. They do the same with loose pollen, wax flakes, etc. if they fall on the floor or even if they are on a top bar.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

707tothe907 said:


> FlowerPlanter, what's your vendetta against mountain camp?


Yeah, I wonder that too. 

I guess you assume that quoting all those who must do it the same as you as some type of justification? Keep in mind that I'm not trashing the practice of using blocks as you seem to prefer. I am simply objecting to your mischaracterization of MC. The fact is that if you're seeing dry sugar tossed out, then you're not getting it wet enough. Its really pretty simple - no web searching needed. Regarding the comment: "the mess to clean up in the spring", again, there is no mess because there is no dry sugar. It is one big hard block. 

Perhaps I'll make a video of the proper way to do MC.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

jean-marc said:


> I still don't get how people have their bees in a situation where they have to emergency feed. Just feed them an extra bucket in September when the weather is still warm and bees have time to process the syrup.
> 
> Jean-Marc


2 Things -

1) Where I live the weather is not reliably cold - we just had 3-4 days of 60ish weather at the end of January, and it's not unusual. I can have hives that are wall to wall food in October that are getting light by now - not all, but some. Maybe it is because of the different climate? I don't know why, but it's true.

2) It is very common for hives to starve in late winter/early spring when the weather gets cold again for 10 days or so in a row, and the cluster is stuck on brood and won't move to get feed that is just a few inches away.

Mt Camp feeding prevents starvation in both those instances. It's cheap, it's easy, it's simple to monitor in any kind of weather, and it does no harm - so I for one do it. And I don't usually lose many (none as often as not - none so far this year - fingers crossed) bees over winter. Cause and effect? Who knows, but it seems like it to me. I don't really consider it emergency feeding - more like insurance.

Your mileage may vary.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

707tothe907 said:


> FlowerPlanter, what's your vendetta against mountain camp?


I use to use it, until I saw for myself, bee carrying it out, every chance they had when they could fly. When it's sprayed they do seem to eat some and but still carry some out. 

5 years ago a friend's only hive died of starvation a week after it he MC'ed in (early spring just as pollen started coming in) with only dry sugar no water (from MP threads this was the original MC method was dry no spray, was invented to absorb excess moisture because of late syrup feeding). At that time when he MC'ed after read about it online there wasn't as much info on spraying the newspaper and sugar 5 years ago as there is now. (And still today some new beek don't use enough water.) To his surprised, his hive had starved right after he fed them and there was still some dry sugar left on the hive and some right outside the entrance. He's never got back into beekeeping. This is not isolated as you can see from the treads above someone else also found dead bees right next to the MC (and it sounds like they sprayed it too). 

I never lost any bees to MC (just sugar lol). So if I have anything against MC it's to keep this from happening to any other beekeepers.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

AstroBee said:


> Yeah, I wonder that too.
> 
> I guess you assume that quoting all those who must do it the same as you as some type of justification? Keep in mind that I'm not trashing the practice of using blocks as you seem to prefer. I am simply objecting to your mischaracterization of MC. The fact is that if you're seeing dry sugar tossed out, then you're not getting it wet enough. Its really pretty simple - no web searching needed. Regarding the comment: "the mess to clean up in the spring", again, there is no mess because there is no dry sugar. It is one big hard block.
> 
> Perhaps I'll make a video of the proper way to do MC.


In just a few days viewing the Beesourse Forum I have learned a lot. One of the many things I have learned is that opinions among beekeepers are like noses, everybody has one. As a new beekeeper likely I will try a couple different methods of feeding and other treatments. One other question I have is if you use the MC method of feeding can or should you add a toping of something like bee-pro to the wet sugar mound? 

Reviewing Lauri’s no cook sugar bricks - 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?320307-Lauri-s-bricks-down-to-an-Art!

She adds a topping of bee-pro to the still wet bricks. It appears that you could do the same to a damp MC sugar mound. Has anyone ever tried this and what were your results? Also if I elect to go the route of “powder sugar” as part of my mite control I would have to remove my hive bodies/supers every couple of weeks to dust my girls. So if feeding would the bricks hold up better to being moved or once damp and clumped would the MC not fall apart?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Groundhwg said:


> One other question I have is if you use the MC method of feeding can or should you add a toping of something like bee-pro to the wet sugar mound?


Generally the purpose of solid feed (mc, fondant, blocks, wet sugar, etc) is to prevent starvation when it is too cold for liquid feed. In this area, that also generally coincides with them being mostly broodless or at least is at a time when you don't want to stimulate brood rearing. Bee-pro or other pollen subs are generally used to stimulate brood rearing or supplement inconsistent pollen availability and would be fed later and for different reasons.

MC, sugar blocks, fondant, candyboards = carbohydrates to sustain adult bees
Bee-pro and other pollen subs = protein to stimulate brood rearing when pollen isn't available or consistently available


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

707tothe907 said:


> For MC you should put down a layer of newspaper and give it a small spritz of water. Put on your volcano of sugar and heavily spritz it.


I suggest a slightly different approach.

Materials:
1. Garden pump sprayer filled with water
2. Newsprint
3. Sugar
4. (optional) dry pollen substitute

Procedure:
1. Start with a single layer of newsprint (I have bulk paper without ink, but regular newspaper is fine). The paper should entirely cover the top bars to avoid over-spray from water getting on the bees.
2. Place paper directly on the top bars 
3. Place an empty super on top of the paper
4. Spray paper with water. You'll want to see tiny pools develop.
5. Quickly add a portion (about 1 inch deep) of dry sugar to the wet paper to absorb the excess water. Do not load on all the sugar at once.
6. Re-spray the sugar to moisten the top layer. 
7. Repeat steps 5 and 6 until you've reached the desired amount of sugar.
8. Final step is to use your hive tool to puncture areas of the paper that are not covered with sugar. This promotes ventilation and gives bees immediate access to moist sugar. 

Notes: I try avoid individual layers of dry sugar greater than 1 inch thick. Many thin layers are much better than a couple thick ones. These thin layers act like "fire breaks" and prevent the dry sugar raining down on the bees. When in doubt respray the layer. The problem with thick layers is that the bees may move too quickly through a bottom layer before the next layer has had a chance to absorb moisture and solidify.

If done properly is safe and very effective without any loss of sugar.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

FlowerPlanter said:


> I never lost any bees to MC (just sugar lol). So if I have anything against MC it's to keep this from happening to any other beekeepers.


Respectfully - just because some bees died after they applied sugar doesn't mean that the sugar killed them. I'd be willing to give pretty long odds that many more hives have died for lack of emergency feeding than because of it. 

This isn't the first time that the "I did this and my bees died anyway, therefore this is not worth doing" fallacy has come up. Any manipulation if done incorrectly or at the wrong time can be ineffective or negatively effective. 

Trying to "Save" people from trying something that has been widely useful and effective - just because it didn't seem to work for you - is not all that much of a service to them. Just my opinion.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I agree with the above and would add that after all these posts, we seem to agree that liquid is important. Even five years ago, (I checked) there were plenty of posts discussing the application of water before, during and/or after dry sugar was introduced. I've never done it any other way and I learned it here. All it takes for me is to pop the top on a decent spring day and see hundreds of bees lapping up syrup at the edge of dry sugar. That means they are using it. They may also be hauling dry stuff out but they're still using it. Maybe the real discussion should be the relative effectiveness of the various methods but in my opinion, nothing in this thread dismisses the MC method as one of many potentially effective emergency feeding approaches.


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

For those of you who doubt they like crusted sugar, sugar patties, etc, put some dry sugar in a mason jar and put it on a table. See what comes the next day of flying weather. I leave a jar of sugar on my fire pit just to watch them come to it. 

Yes mine probably take some out of the hive, but I am sure some are using it also.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

This year, I had some moisture problems with newspaper wicking (and inadequate protection from weather). Probably lost a couple of nucs as a result. Sugar blocks once made are easier and faster to put in the hive in that substandard weather, and I fixed the weather protection issues as well. Mountain camp will only be an emergency method for me if I run out of sugar blocks.


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## StacieM (Dec 13, 2012)

I have done the Mountain Camp method for the past few years. For me, it seems to work well. Here in Northern/North Central Kentucky, humidity and moisture are as much of a concern as the cold temps. I spray both the newspaper and the sugar with water and find that the ambient moisture turns the sugar in to a solid brick anyway. I have had hives that never touched it because they had enough stores to get them through. And hives that ate the majority of it. I've not had pest problems as a result. If done correctly, I would say it is a cheap, easy, and (most importantly) successful way to help your bees get through the winter season. The food aspect of it is obviously important, but it's moisture absorbing properties are very important to me as well.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> 1. Garden pump sprayer *filled with water*...
> 
> The paper should entirely cover the top bars to *avoid over-spray from **water **getting on the bees*...
> 
> ...


This really sounds like a lot of water and a lot of work, do the rest of you put this much water in your hives?
There is nothing simple or easy or even safe about this. 
Do you trust hundreds of new beekeeper doing this to their bees?
Out of a hundred how many will kill their bees? With cold water raining on the bees while hive is open in the middle of winter?

You can do all that... or you can place a sugar block on the top bars.




Scpossum said:


> For those of you who doubt they like crusted sugar, sugar patties, etc, put some dry sugar in a mason jar and put it on a table. See what comes the next day of flying weather. I leave a jar of sugar on my fire pit just to watch them come to it.
> 
> *Yes mine probably take some out of the hive*, but I am sure some are using it also.


A good experiment to try; a side by side test. 
That's an idea!




lharder said:


> This year, I had some* moisture problems with newspaper wicking *(and inadequate protection from weather). * Probably lost a couple of nucs as a result.* Sugar blocks once made are easier and faster to put in the hive in that substandard weather, and I fixed the weather protection issues as well. Mountain camp will only be an emergency method for me if I run out of sugar blocks.



So far we have accounts of 3 different people that may have lost hives cause of MC. 

Never heard a sugar block killing a hive!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

lharder said:


> This year, I had some moisture problems with newspaper wicking (and inadequate protection from weather).


What do you mean by "wicking" moisture? Did you leave paper extending outside the hive bodies? If not, then I would suspect that you had moisture problems inside the hive regardless of any in-hive treatment.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I also add sugar to the top of my hives as a regular practice for cheap insurance. The thing I might add is that if your hive is running on empty on stores/carbs, it may also be running out of protien/pollen.....I have had seemingly healthy hives perish with plenty of stores including sugar. 
I just started putting on BITs of pollen sub, to cover that possibility. not enough to throw them onto early build up but to give them some if they are running low....My theory is that if the bee put up the frames of stores proportionally, and they are running out of carbs (for whatever reason) they may also be running out of pollen stores...This is the time of year when they start brooding up "often unnoticed by the keeper" and hives are stressed, often on the edge of success or falure in the battle for winter survival ...This may or maynot be an answer to winter success but for me the price of a ball of pollen that may be ignored by the girls,,,its safe insurance...JMHO.

==McBee7==


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

FlowerPlanter said:


> This really sounds like a lot of water and a lot of work, do the rest of you put this much water in your hives?
> There is nothing simple or easy or even safe about this.
> Do you trust hundreds of new beekeeper doing this to their bees?
> Out of a hundred how many will kill their bees? With cold water raining on the bees while hive is open in the middle of winter?


I suspect that MC (even how I use it) is less total initial moisture than bricks. I base this on the fact that all the sugar in MC is not initially solid. Again, I'm not suggesting anything is wrong with bricks!

Where in the procedure above did I mention put so much water in the hive so that it rains down on the bees? Read it again, I specifically said: "avoid over-spray from water getting on the bees". Do you read that to believe I'm suggesting let it rain down on the bees? That would be simply stupid, and I'm pretty sure even a newbee would know better. 

Your interaction in this thread tells me that you're on some type of misguided crusade against MC. I think you should really consider the lack of objectivity that you're presenting. You're twisting facts, gathering partial information and expecting experienced beekeepers to give you a pass. You've been here long enough to know that doesn't fly.

BTW, if you have anything you need to say to me directly I suggest that we move forward using PM. I think this thread is well beyond diminishing returns on this debate.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

FlowerPlanter said:


> I use to use it, until I saw for myself, bee carrying it out, every chance they had when they could fly. When it's sprayed they do seem to eat some and but still carry some out.
> 
> 5 years ago a friend's only hive died of starvation a week after it he MC'ed in (early spring just as pollen started coming in) with only dry sugar no water (from MP threads this was the original MC method was dry no spray, was invented to absorb excess moisture because of late syrup feeding). At that time when he MC'ed after read about it online there wasn't as much info on spraying the newspaper and sugar 5 years ago as there is now. (And still today some new beek don't use enough water.) To his surprised, his hive had starved right after he fed them and there was still some dry sugar left on the hive and some right outside the entrance. He's never got back into beekeeping. This is not isolated as you can see from the treads above someone else also found dead bees right next to the MC (and it sounds like they sprayed it too).
> 
> I never lost any bees to MC (just sugar lol). So if I have anything against MC it's to keep this from happening to any other beekeepers.


If it was a problem of no moisture in the hive, how were they going to eat a sugar brick?

I don't spray in layers. I haul a 5 gallon bucket of sugar from the truck to the hives. I place the newspaper (and leave it hanging out) and set an empty super. I wet the newspaper liberally with a hand sprayer like you use on laundry when ironing. I pour the sugar and wet the pile until it is running down the sides of it. By then the bees are feeding at the edge. I don't completely cover the top bars. I leave a 1/2" or so of top bar ends exposed. Close it and move to the next one. I don't feed them all. If they are still heavy by my subjective opinion, I move on. I often come back in March to find parts of a sugar shell lying on the top bars, newspaper gone, and bees actively feeding. Likewise I find them taking the sugar while honey is still in the frames. Sugar is sugar whether it is dissolved or solid. The chemical is the same. If the bees ingest it they can store it or digest it.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

AstroBee said:


> I think this thread is well beyond diminishing returns on this debate.


I agree.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

When I ship queens I take slight extra precautions to increase my odds the queens will not just survive the trip, but will get there in excellent shape, be well accepted and get back to work without delay.
That's what I want out of my overwintered nuc's too. 
I've gone past the point of just being satisfied with survival. I want them to come out of winter strong & be thriving this time of year.
Here's a photo from yesterday of a double nuc. I can about guarantee you, without the fortified sugar block with the dry Bee Pro topping, this nuc wouldn't look like this in my climate. My temps are 25-40 degrees average during winter with 4-6 weeks at a time clustering confinement periods. Lots of rain. No natural feed late October-mid February. 










Small mating nuc, uninsulated. Again, without the fortified block this would probably not have survived. Almost impossible to get enough feed into half sized frames to carry over a colony through winter.



















Below, early winter:










Same colony from yesterday:











Sure it takes me some time to make up the blocks. But what is a good colony worth coming out of winter? 
I see a lot of people making the blocks, but leaving off the Bee pro. That is an important ingredient if you want these results. 

Here's how they use it. Some consumption, some storage depending on time of year and needs.




























Just what I do personally. 

These blocks are _fortified_ with acids, vitamins & electrolytes with enhancing flavor/scent to make them appealing. Free choice dry protein available when needed. 
Not a simple carbohydrate fix. 

Dry sugar vs these blocks is not an apples to apples comparison. They are two products that differ greatly in nutritional value. 

In case you need the recipe:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290641-My-recipe-method-for-sugar-blocks


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Pretty much the way mine look on dry sugar. We have pollen available in the environment year around, and flying days year around. Longest hard cold spells are a week, sometimes two. I get great build ups on dry sugar.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Assuming we are discussing 'wintering' bees.....Like most Northern Beeks, we've successfully fed our bees using many of the methods discussed on this thread. 

Below are our 'preferred' methods for 'winter' feeding;

1. Leaving enough Honey (100 lbs plus) 

2. Honey and Sugar mixed (sometimes patties, sometimes balls), to a peanut butter consistency, frozen and placed over inner cover (center hole open) at winter wrap up time.

3. During poor nectar years or 'Late season warm ups with temps above freezing' - we'll either open feed some 'warm syrup' if bees are flying (if there's just a few 'equal strength' colonies) or feed warm syrup inside until temps return to below freezing and bees stop flying.

4. Also during poor nectar years....Pouring 5 lbs of dry sugar on top of inner cover, leaving center hole open. Whether bees find or even need this 'insurance' feed matters little. Its usually hardened up pretty good by early Spring, indicating its usefulness as a means of absorbing moisture in the hive.

By the 'first inspection' come Spring, winter survivors are 'usually' consuming whatever was left for them......But not always ......we have come to expect that contrary to common belief, our bees are sometimes in the bottom box with the feed we left them untouched, instead finding and consuming the Honey there in the bottom that was 'supposed' to be above them...????

The bees know.....


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## Kimkaseman (Dec 29, 2014)

Can this go right into a quilt box? And can I put the wood shavings on top on the candy board for additional moisture protection?


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## JeffM17 (Jul 19, 2013)

I dont think so, do your bees have access to the quilt box? Mine do not as I have a layer of cloth on the bottom of the quilt box.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jean-marc


> I still don't get how people have their bees in a situation where they have to emergency feed. Just feed them an extra bucket in September when the weather is still warm and bees have time to process the syrup.


I have a couple of swarms that have quit building comb. I fed some serup for a couple of weeks and they were just filling what they had but not really building a bunch of comb. I Should have fed when I hived them but these are my first hives. Live and learn. I don't believe with only having 2 mediums built out now on two hives that they would build enough comb and store enough to get to weight for winter. They might fill the brood nest and not make enough babies to even go into winter. I don't have any ideal of what to do but figure that I will probly mounten camp the hives and keep my fingers crossed. I am so new and there is so many views that some times you just have to pick one and run with it. If there is no comb to store the feed in, you still have to do something.

Too your comment that I quoted. I am finding there are ways to end up with not enough stores to winter on.
gww


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## Kimkaseman (Dec 29, 2014)

I saw a video where they our sugar in inner cover and quilt box on top. But he made a special inner cover that was deeper.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@Kimkaseman,

I use a top entrance shim (2" high), and a fabric-floored quilt box on top of that (filled with coarse pine shavings.)

I put Lauri's Recipe sugar blocks in the space enclosed by the shim (and also sometimes commercial winter patty, and then late in the season - after mid-March - pollen patties.)

Note the lack of an inner cover, I don't use them.

The bees should not have access to the shavings and they will get in and get lost in them, and freeze.

I think it's very important to have a fabric-floor to the quilt box so the moisture can rise up from the bees below and into the filling of the quilt box and then move out of the hive through the vent shim above the quilt box.

Above that upper vent shim is my telecover with 1.5" of foam inside. The foam acts as a thermal barrier, but also to raise the lip of the tele above the wide open vent in the shim below.

My quilt boxes are a mixture of repurposed comb-honey depth boxes and shallow boxes. They stay on the hive year-round.

If you search on the term quilt box here on BS you'll get lots of ideas.

Enj.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

jean-marc said:


> I still don't get how people have their bees in a situation where they have to emergency feed. Just feed them an extra bucket in September when the weather is still warm and bees have time to process the syrup.


This!

I don't get all this focus on sugar blocks and Mountain Camp'ing a hive. What . . . did you not know there was a Winter coming?

Check your hive weights in the Fall. If they are light, feed them up to Winter weight with syrup and they will be miles ahead in brood rearing in late Winter/early Spring than if you are relying on solid sugar.

Obviously, there are exceptions where some form of solid feed is needed over winter, but those cases are exceptions, not the norm. Even a late season swarm should'a been fed syrup until it was at Winter weight. Beekeepers make mistakes and sometime stuff happens, myself included on both of those. But, lot'sa new beekeepers are being mislead into thinking that solid feeding is the normal pattern for keeping bees, but it is not.

JMHO





.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Shinbone


> Even a late season swarm should'a been fed syrup until it was at Winter weight.


I have however read on this site (no experiance) that feeding late with syrup can reduce the space of raising winter brood, cause late swarming and that it can shorten the life of the winter bees due to the work involved with drying the syrup.

Lots of stuff out there to wade thruogh.
gww


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

gww said:


> Shinbone
> 
> 
> I have however read on this site (no experience) that feeding late with syrup can reduce the space of raising winter brood, cause late swarming and that it can shorten the life of the winter bees due to the work involved with drying the syrup.
> ...


Well, a person has to be "smart" about what to believe and not believe regarding posts on Beesource. Unfortunately, that takes some experience. I know this because I went through that process, myself. Some things to consider: Does the poster offer some info to back up their claim? How about providing some hard data? Does the poster have many years of beekeeping experience? Is the poster a longtime, well-respected member of Beesource? These are just some examples of questions to keep in mind when evaluating statements on Beesource.

"_feeding late with syrup can reduce the space of raising winter brood;_" "_cause late swarming;_" "_shorten the life of the winter bees due to the work involved with drying the syrup;_" (the last one seems especially silly to me). Yes, maybe any of these "can" happen But, does it really do that in your situation? What did the poster offer to back up his claims? How location dependent is all of this? Is feeding solid food really a better alternative?

Bees have evolved to collect nectar to store as honey for Winter food. While some deviation from that process may be required by the beekeeper for the hive to survive, the farther one deviates from that process the more problems he will cause. Why choose to deviate radically from the natural process when one can deviate only a little bit? Solid sugar dumped on top of frames is a radical departure from the natural process, sugar syrup collected and stored by the bees is a small deviation.

JMHO






.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Shinbone
I have been on this site since feb 2015 and probly started reading it 6 months to a year before. I have a hard time joining stuff. I had my stuff built over a year before I got bees. I pretty much read everything I get my hands on. It all goes out the window when you finaly get bees. I have made some mistakes. Like that a swarm doesn't need feeding and how fast they will build comb. My experiances do not reflect what are the average statements made here even taking out the most fabulous claims and the most doom and gloom claims.

It is hard when the only referances you have are you tube and reading. I still don't know how my swarms compare size wise to a 3 lbs package cause I have never seen a 3 lbs package except on you tube.

I also may do things that hurt me once to see what happens. There is no learning like learning while doing. I find this site has given me lots of avenues to make decisions over and is very helpful though I might still make a few bad decisions to see just cause the choice seems to be there. Unless I really feed like crazy now (which I haven't decided to do) I have a feeling I will have a few more decisions to make some of which might hurt me and could have been avoided.

Thank you very much for taking the time to adress my points.
gww


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

gww - my sentiments, too.

Beesource is HUGELY valuable resource to me, and I am light years ahead because of it. _But_, nothing can take the place of actual doing.


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