# Who's Grafting?



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Well... after I got back from Sue Cobeys class, I set up am ini cell builder and grated 9 cups in. This will be a tester (that is why not so many) to see where the bees are. 

Anyone else grafted yet?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

I will be going out to pick our first queens Tuesday, and have more cells due to go in those mating nucs on Wednesday. First graft was April 22nd. I wish I had started a week earlier as we would have had perfect mating weather for them. We have had a pretty poor mix for mating, with (hopefully) enough warm days but lots of cooler, rainier and many windy days. Chance you take trying to raise queens in Wisconsin, I guess.
Sheri


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

yes, the weather can be iffy... that is for sure. That is what happened to me last year. I grafted on some nicve days and it was stil nice when I placed the cells in the matingn ucs but than we had a lot of rain and cold weather... there goes that round . 

I guess the first round can be iffy at best


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Grafted our first batch May 2nd. Turned out some nice cells, just waiting for them to get mated........if it ever warms up .


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I started grafting April 20th. which was about 10 days later than last year. First several grafts were not worth much. Although the bees were queenless and I did everything by the book, they said "Hey, you fool! We may be queenless but were not making 30 queens for Ya. How about 2 or 3."

Since then, I have seen a low of 2 for a graft of 32 to a high of 25. Nights are still a problem as we had frost and nightitme freezing at least two days this past week.

Mating thus far has been good with a long stretch of nice weather.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Queen rearing is probably the only part of beekeeping I do not try to push. It is so much under the influence of the weather, more than we think. Ideally I start after the first of June, but like all of us, I do not resist and my first batch will be started tomorrow, we had some cold days here in CT and the weather looks promising next week.
My first batch consist of Carniolian, some really dark ones. I have the drone frames on hives for some weeks now, some are hatching. 
It is my favorite part of beekeeping.
Gilman


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Gilman:

I really do think the key to breeding is the desity of the cell builders.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

well chef (not really disagreeing here, but) the key to 'good breeding' is selecting an excellect queen mother and drone hives. the key to getting acceptable graft takes is without a doubt proper grafting technique and a very populated stater box. temperature and humidity are also variable that have great influence on outcome...

ps... for the first time in a number of years I will limit my grafting as I shift my interest to the acquisition and maintance of a few ai queens which will be used to raise a few fall queens, but will be obtained primarily for next springs queen production.

as always... The BEST of luck to ya' bro...


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I grafted 36 cells on April 17th. I only had about a 60% take. Part of the issue I think was that I tried a different grafting tool than I'm used to and don't quite have the hang of it yet. I was getting close to 95% last year.

I hope to do a second graft in the next week or so.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Does anyone know of any possible problems associated with grafting russian or carni into an italian hive?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Chef:

I've had laying queens from the first graft about 2 weeks ago. The weather finally turned on a Monday and they got mated that day. Virgins were about 2 weeks old at that time. I've grafted 2 times since. About 120 cells hatching today-tomorrow and the same on the week-end. I have some queenless hives that I'll use on wednesday for grafting. I'll shoot for 400-500. That'll keep us busy with making nucs and so on. I'll keep the nucs weak so that they build up to 2 boxes bysept.

Jean-Marc


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Chef Isaac said:


> Gilman:
> 
> I really do think the key to breeding is the desity of the cell builders.


You are right Chef

Density is a must. For quality queens we should create or use similar situations of natural queen rearing. All those conditions mentioned in this thread are very important. 
As you know a well breed queen from an inferior stock is superior from that queen breed not that well from a superior stock.
I did my first batch today. 
Gilman


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

how is the weather there Gilman? 

I hope my grafts took. I will check maybe in the morning or tomorow after work.


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

*Grafting Thoughts/Questions*

Did my first grafting of the year a couple of weeks ago. The cell builder (now queenright over a Cloake board) really drew out some nice looking cells. However, I noticed that when I took out all but two of the cells that they continued to add onto the remaining with a lot of wax. Seems like almost too much wax for the queens to get through to emerge. Anyone else seen anything like it? 

Also, during my second graft I primed the cells cups with royal jelly from adjacent worker cells instead of using the stuff I have stored in the freezer. I want to see if there's increased acceptance with 'fresher' jelly. 

What's everyone using for a grafting tool? I've tried the Chinese tool in the past. This was my first time using a 00 sable paint brush. Much easier to pick up the larvae and set them back down. 

Mike


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I really like the chinese plastic grafting tool. It works nicely for me. Its cheap.

When I grafted in Calif for a quen producer, we used the automatic grafting tool. It was ok. Expensive though. 

I tried a brush last year and didnt care for it too much but I should give it another good old college try.


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## danno1800 (Mar 13, 2004)

*grafted yesterday with a friend of mine*

We did 48 grafts...keep your fingers crossed! -Danno


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

@BjornBee: I never had any problems raising NWC grafts in an Italian hive, at least I didn't when I started out with mainly Italians.

I prefer the stainless german tool. Not as cheap as the chinese tool, but should last forever. I tried one of the chinese tools a few years ago but couldn't get it to work at all (the tongue always wanted to bend backwards and catch on the cell wall). Probably just a defective one and I've been told quality control can be an issue, so you may have to try more than one.

-Tim


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

We have been getting about 200 a week from five reliable cell builders since May and we just brought another 5 on line. Each one is started with about 20 lbs of shook bees and then maintained with weekly brood additions. Each cell builder yields about 50 large well-formed cells per graft with a 95+% take rate. Finally done with pollination so we can ramp up production.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Cell builders take A LOT of resources up. Seems like one needs to have a lot of support hives to be able to do this.

I just looked at my grafts and had no takes, which was disapointing. 

I ended up breaking the single deep down to a nuc to increase the density. 

I did see eggs which puzzeled me but I took the queen out on Saturday and grafted so maybe if I wait for a few more days, all the eggs will hatch into larvae.


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

It's only been 3 days, so there likely are some eggs yet to hatch. I'm not sure exactly the time it should take, and I'm sure it can vary a bit based on temperature and other factors.

Cell builders can take a fair number of resources, but should be too bad. It really depends on how many cells you are raising and how many bees are available. I can usually manage a queenless cell builder just by stealing several frames of brood from two strong hives each week, or a queenright builder with only occasional brood added from outside hives (assuming the queen in cell builder is really good.)

My big crunch in resources is simply populating the mating nucs.

-Tim


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

I feel sorry for you northerners. My grafts at the end of Feb.(what a nice mild winter) took well.
Those queens are running strong now.

I used homemade grafting tools until two weeks ago when I got my first chineese grafting tool. A blind man being able to graft isn't a joke. Grafting is sooo easy with it.

No more fighting with larva that are pulled too far onto the tool.


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## Primo (May 23, 2006)

*Grafted Today*

I did my second go at grafting today since the first one went so well.
Here is the cloake board hive a couple hours after putting 2 bars with 50 grafts in it.
http://www.primoelite.com/Bees/cloakeboardhive.htm
Thanks for looking.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

*My first graft looks very promising*

I normally start grafting early June, but has been a long cold winter and I could not resist.
This how it goes:

Two weeks ago a strong 5 frame nuc swarms, I see it leaving the box and after 15 minuter lands in a bush 20 feet away, 3 feet high, the dream swarm. One hour later, after I finished some work on that bee yard, I shook the swarm on the same nuc, they just went for a Fly, time to go home.
Few days latter I went to the same yard, thinking that the nuc had swarm again. I was lucky, the nuc was really boiling, with swarm cells but the change in weather probably delay the swarm.
I took the queen with one frame of bees, put it in another box few feet away, different direction, started feeding light syrup for few days.
One week latter killed the emergency cells and put 2 rows of 18 cells to be warmed and cleaned from bees, 4 days before grafting I put a drawn frame in my breeder hive, nice carniolan, and on may 21 did my first graft of the year, perfect age larvae and put some trapped pollen on top of the frames of the super nuc.

Today I checked and saw that all the pollen was gone and the bees had started queen cells on almost all the grafted cells, did not count because did not want to disturb the feeding, true sign that winter is over.
This is not the way I bread queens, I do it by the book, bigger hives and starter finisher.
I was being opportunistic, taking advantage to the natural state of the nuc, cell building. Variations are always intriguing.

Thanks Cheff for starting this thread, my favorite topic.

Gilman


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Gilman:

I love this topic too!!!! 

I have caught osme swarms so I was thinking of shaking those bees into my cell builder. I do like using nucs as a cell builder as it cuts down on all the reources it takes for a normal cell builder.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

BjornBee said:


> I started grafting April 20th. ........ they said "Hey, you fool! We may be queenless but were not making 30 queens for Ya. How about 2 or 3."
> 
> Since then, I have seen a low of 2 for a graft of 32 to a high of 25. Nights are still a problem as we had frost and nightitme freezing at least two days this past week.





Dan Williamson said:


> I grafted 36 cells on April 17th. I only had about a 60% take. Part of the issue I think was that I tried a different grafting tool than I'm used to and don't quite have the hang of it yet. I was getting close to 95% last year.


Glad I am not alone. I was getting an 80- 90% take last year and my first graph this year was about that too. The next 3-4 grafts, doing nothing different, suddenly were a low of 34% then increasing back up closer to 75%. The most recent graft was 85%. I never thought of blaming the weather, is it that big a factor? We did have some pretty cold days for that time of year, but how do the bees know what mating weather will be like in 2 weeks? 



Fernhill said:


> What's everyone using for a grafting tool? Mike





tarheit said:


> I tried one of the chinese tools a few years ago but couldn't get it to work at all (the tongue always wanted to bend backwards and catch on the cell wall). Probably just a defective one and I've been told quality control can be an issue, so you may have to try more than one.
> 
> -Tim


I also use the chinese tool, tried many kinds and like it the best. There are quality control issues, for sure. When I ordered some last year I recieved a batch where the tongue bent backward in the cell. I called and got free replacements. There are definitely defective ones out there. I just ordered a new batch and hopefully they will not be the "bad" ones.
Sheri


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

The weather is probably the single most important factor on successful queen rearing. The attitude of bees changes with weather. 
There may be preparations for swarming that are delayed or stopped by weather. That is why I normaly start grafting in June for my overwintered nucs. 

Gilman


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

*two pics of my first graft of the year*

Here are my queen cells tree days after grafting. They are in a starter finisher strong 5 frame nuc. I put some pollen on top of the frames, trap-ed from my hives. I had to fill it twice because the bees cleaned it, hopeful consumed it.
Gilman

Good grafting
http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t97/bleta12/


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

*new pics mini matting nucs*

I made some mini matting nucs today. I used some Apidea and some 4 way half frame Chef Isaac. Palmer, Webster and Brother Adams matting nucs. They have 20 half frames, no feeder, I had to improvise with a # 8 screen and feeding on top of the screen.
They are stored inside a garage where they will stay for 3-4 days. The bees were shook yesterday with queen excluder, left queen less overnight and feed syrup.

I feel good about this part of beekeeping.

Gilman

http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t97/bleta12/


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

gilman: 

whats that white paper like things around the feeder?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Been watching this thread, wishing I could get my grafting going. Finally...Sunday is the day. I set up 4 cell builders on the 24th, and will graft on Sunday, the 3rd of June. 

My mating nucs are ready to split up. Planning on 180 grafts for my 156 mating nucs. Second graft will be 8 days later...for the second batch of 156. First queens will be ready to catch on June 28th.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Made my 2nd graft of 39 cells yesterday. I have so many people calling me for queens locally that I can't supply the demand. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Chef Isaac said:


> gilman:
> 
> whats that white paper like things around the feeder?


Hi Chef,

There is no cover on the jar, just a peace of thin cloth from some of my old A-shirt, kept with rubber band. There is no hole on the screen, the jar goes on top of the screen. 
Gilman


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

so there is no lid on the jar.... just the shirt?


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Chef Isaac said:


> so there is no lid on the jar.... just the shirt?


Just the shirt hold by rubber band.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Dan Williamson said:


> Made my 2nd graft of 39 cells yesterday. I have so many people calling me for queens locally that I can't supply the demand. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


I could graft everyday, if I had the mating nucs to put them in. It takes alot of resources to run the amount of queens i'd like too.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

I did my second grafting of the season today. Big monster starter finisher 1 deep hive. 
Humidity probably 100%, was raining later. I love this time of the year, all heavy job is done. 

The memory of this time keeps us going in the looong northeastern winter.

Gilman


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I went to one of my outyards 60 miles away where I had some queens I wanted to breed from, so I grafted. It beats driving all that way to confine the queen and then all that way to release her and then all that way to transfer the larvae. I grafted six bars. I got much better as I went, but the larvae the size I graft in the Jenter, I can't even see, let alone get a hold of. The Chinese tool just doesn't seem to pick them up when they are that small, and I'm not sure I could tell if it did.


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

I grafted six bars yesterday (54) cells. I'm using the cloake method so we will see how it goes. I'm not convinced that they will take as I'm a little concerned about hive strength. I also used the chinese tool. It took a bit of time to get the hang of the tool at first, I was like why does everyone like this stupid freaking tool, then I got the hang of it and started feeling confident. I also found I like to graft from newly drawn frames where the cells are not drawn all the way out. It seems to make grafting much easier.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

yule: let me know how you like the cloake board. I havent used it yet.


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

I was finally able to check my cell starter, and I found only 6 out of 54 started. 
I'm happy to get 6 for my second attempt at grafting. I definitely need more bees when I graft again in a few days. I'm going to add some frames of emerging brood, that should help my take rate.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>I definitely need more bees when I graft again in a few days.

How aboud adding nurse bees from support colonies? Shake bees off open brood, through an excluder.


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

"How aboud adding nurse bees from support colonies? Shake bees off open brood, through an excluder."

Sounds like a good idea, I may do that today. I knew there wasn't enough bees when I saw the gap between the frames where the grafts go didn't have any bees festooning. I also left a 3rd deep on top of the 2nd deep which was above the cloake brd. I don't know if it would have helped to take the 3rd deep off and force all the bees in the 2nd deep. The 3rd deep has about 6 frames of honey(no brood), so I'm not sure there were any young bees hanging out up there anyhow.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

yule:

the density of bees is key. If you moved them all into the second eep, that might work but better yet, you can shake a lot of bees into a nuc and go that way. Remember... it is the density of the bees that counts.


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

I shook 4 frames of bees into the 2nd deep, I also removed the second deep and pu the frames of honey in other hives. I also noticed that the hive had alot of emerging brood which should help my bee density. I will graft again on Saturday, so I will keep you all posted.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

These have good bee density, but it could be even better:




http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/peggjam/IMG_0825.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/peggjam/IMG_0824.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/peggjam/IMG_0822.jpg

I should add that these are 5 frame nuc cell starters. Much easier to maintain than a full 10 frame starter.


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

Well after my second graft went 7 for 32, I shook 6 frames of bees from the lower deep into the upper deep with the cloake board closed off, preventing any bees from going down below. Today I checked my 3rd graft and I got 35 out of 55, so I am making some descent progress. Now my problem is getting all those queens mated.....


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I went to get the larvae out of the Jenter box Wednesday and they had removed all the eggs and filled it with nectar.  I had to find another good queen and graft from that one. It sure took a lot longer as I had to find the right age eggs and then I had to graft, which took longer, but at least I got some cells started. Looks like about 30 or so.

I do get better the more I do it.

I confined TWO queens in TWO Jenter boxes today. Hopefully one will provide some larvae...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Grafting is well under way her. Third graft on Tuesday. Checked graft #2 today. 4 cell builders. 168 of 180. Nice looking cells this time.

Not so with one cell builder last week. Cells in one cell builder were killed...here's why.

On grafting day, in the morning, I remove bottom brood box with old queen. Top box is cell builder with only sealed brood. I shake nurse bees off open brood frames from bottom box...through excluder. So I don't mistakenly get queen. Bottom box and queen are moved to another yard.

Afternoon is grafting time. Then, 5 days later, I bring back bottom box and old queen and place cell builder on her, over excluder. Cells are sealed by now, so I take a count. This batch was killed. There were eggs and young larvae in the cell builder.

Only way was if queen went through excluder when I shook in nurse bees. It had been only 5 days. Eggs and very young larvae present...Because the queen had been laying in box just 5 days.

Shaker box is new...made from hive body and new Mann Lake wood bound excluder.

You bet I called. The excluder wires are not straight...but most are curved in the same direction...maintaining proper spacing. But there are some that curve away from each other...creating a larger space. I think the queen went through one of those spaces. I tried to explain that to "her," and she tells me that maybe I have a small queen...Not! This while I'm looking at the GD excluder.

So, they want to send me a new ont. I said don't bother...unless the wires are straight. Don't need any more failed cell builders.

Anyone else have trouble with ML excluders?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Michael Bush said:


> I went to get the larvae out of the Jenter box Wednesday and they had removed all the eggs and filled it with nectar.


This is one advantage the early Texas and California queen breeders have over those of us raising summer northern ones, they don't have to worry about keeping ahead on the nectar flows. We have had this same problem trying to keep a frame open to put our breeder in.



Michael Palmer said:


> ......So, they want to send me a new ont. I said don't bother...unless the wires are straight. Don't need any more failed cell builders.
> Anyone else have trouble with ML excluders?


We have had queens go through the metal excluders a couple times, even when all the wires were straight. It is not that uncommon for a queen that really wants to, to get through an excluder. Usually it is just an inconvenience and means a little brood in our honey supers, but it is a real pain when you lose a bunch of cells. Once we had a virgin hatch early and after taking out most of the other cells went downstairs through the excluder and took out the colony queen! 
For queen rearing we always use a double excluder as insurance against just that happening. We have never had a queen go through both of them.
Sheri


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

How about,

shake twenty pounds in a bulk cage, set your graft's in, wait two day then go to finishers.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

*Grafting in a queen right colony*

Yesterday I came across a super strong i deep queen right colony that was just boiling with bees and has started swarm cells, great candidate for a cell starter-finisher colony.
Instead of looking for the queen in that big mass of bees I grafted 40 cells without removing the queen. I expect that the good weather we are having this week in CT and swarming impulse the bees already, have will produce superior queen cells and give me time to go and remove the queen in 5 days. 
I have done same graftings in the past with excellent results, the queen has to be removed in 1 week. The quality of cells is superior.
So instead of using emergency cell building instinct in a typical queen less entity, we are trying to exploit the multiplying instinct that is expressed by swarm cells. To succeed in this kind of operation, the good weather is a must, that is why I waited till now.

Ill let you know how thinks will evolve.

Gilman


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Grafting is well under way her. Third graft on Tuesday. Checked graft #2 today. 4 cell builders. 168 of 180. Nice looking cells this time.
> 
> Not so with one cell builder last week. Cells in one cell builder were killed...here's why.
> 
> ...


Why not take the time to find the frame that the queen is on, and set it aside, while you shake the rest of the frames? I know it takes longer, but by doing that, I don't have to monkey with excluders and such. I just shake right into the bulk bee box.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

> Why not take the time to find the frame that the queen is on, and set it aside, while you shake the rest of the frames? I know it takes longer, but by doing that, I don't have to monkey with excluders and such. I just shake right into the bulk bee box.

Why not use a smoke-up box, dont have to look for queen & the fastest way to SHAKE.

Can shake about 80-100 pounds per hour by my self.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

keith: did you make a smoke up box?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef,

Take a shallow super, cut a dozen slats vertical on the long side of the super put that together, glue the slats in, then screen the top.
Smoke bees up you should get about five to eight pound and go directly to the bulk cage.

P.S Chef you were talking on a nother post about about steaks and such, We drive up to Tahoe just for a fine dinner, the hell with gambling


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

keith: I pmed you....


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Chef,
If you'd like to see a picture of this smoker box, Keith is talking about, look in "The Hive and the honey bee" page 1038-39. They call it a cluster box. It's in the chapter on the production of queens and package bees.
Jim


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