# Mann Lake rep here on BSource?



## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I bought a 300#/$1400. bottler. 2011/2012 if my memory serves me well. I kept the heat @ or around 85-90 degrees. There was about 50 lbs of honey in it & the water level showed to be well above the honey. I came into my shop to find that the water had all boiled out & honey was burnt to a thick nasty syrup. The heater does not work now.

I called ML & explained what had happened & was told that they had never heard of that happening. I told them that I couldn't imagine how the bottler would get so hot as to boil everything, it was on a very low setting. I was told that b/c it was past warranty that I could buy another element for $200. 

In the past 5 years I have been spending money on equipment like a drunken sailor. I have spent probably 70% of my funds @ ML. am I out of line to expect them to stand by this product? I am not a big outfit & I don't expect that they would crash w/out my business. I am not happy & need a heater for my bottler.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Probably a jammed thermostat?

Can't answer if / why they should repair something like that after the warranty has expired, if they did they would be doing you a favour it would be a nice gesture, but they don't have to.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

OT. I would expect them to say: send it back, let's have a look at it....not: sell you another one.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That's not how it usually works after warranty has expired where I am, however maybe it's different for you.


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## Dave Warren (May 14, 2012)

As I sit at my computer and read this thread, I think about the moderator on this site, who deleted my post because I was telling about bad customer service of Walter Kelly Bee Company, I wonder why your post is sticking and this guy gave me the slam dunk!
I was honest, professional, I just don't get it!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Lakebilly I'm not quite clear. Is it that they just flat won't repair it, or is it that they will repair it, but expect you to pay them for that?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

my day job is dairy equipment dealer, quite similar to bee equipment dealer. the warranty is for manufacturer defects, not lightning storms or flooding or what other bad stuff happens. years ago the manufacturers and distributors gave us a some leeway, not any longer. if the parts were made in china [likely], if they fit and work at all you are ahead of the game. I have one supplier that for one particular product [made in usa electric drain valve] , now there is no warranty at all, if it does not work out of the box for 30 days from original shipment date I can send it back if never used, I pay all shipping, the 30 days is out of the distributors pocket. this part has been on the market for at least 30 years never a problem until mandatory material changes to conform with European standards. now we are on our own and the motor is junk. try again nicely with mann lake but also grow up a little. things have changed.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

if the heater is 240 volt and the element burns out, the element can short out and continue to heat even with the thermostat off, running on 110 volts, assuming single pole controls. this is just like a standard electric water heater set-up. check for a shorted heating element first. this is a water quality thing, hard water causes this situation most often.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

If you bought it in 2011, that's 3 years ago. I assume the warranty is one year? If so, that's a lot to expect from Mann Lake. I buy all my equipment from Mann Lake, but be happy if they even offer a discount since it's probably far out of warranty. Hopefully they will offer some help!


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Since this is a fairly large forum and Mann Lakes is not a participant it seems a bit unfair (unethical) to hammer them on this site. Call them again, tell them you have been a good customer and ask them is there any way they can get the manufacturer to give you some relief. Like one of the above posters said, "things aren't like they used to be." China, Mexico and some third world countries are selling sub par inventories to US companies, and they don't do any "good will" fixes. Our country has shipped our manufacturers over seas due to our taxes and regulations so don't look for things to get better soon.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> I think about the moderator on this site, who deleted my post ...

Dave, you have to pay attention to the specific forum that you are posting in, and the _special rules_ that may apply to that particular forum.

For instance, threads in the _Consumer Report_ Forum are required to stay on topic for just the vendor identified in the original post. If you want to talk about a different vendor, you need to start a different thread. If your post got deleted, that may be why.

Note this thread is in the _Bee Forum_, and the rules are different in this forum compared to _Consumer Report_. If a forum has _special _rules, they are posted in a sticky at the top of the forum thread listing.

- - - - - - -

_Lakebilly_, my suggestion is to remove the element/control from the bottling tank, find the manufacturer model numbers/ID of the element/control and Google it to see if you can find other sources of spare parts. You might find that replacement parts are available for less elsewhere.

.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Sorry to hear of your troubles Lakebilly. I think I would follow Raders advice, may save you a few bucks. As far as ML goes, cant really say I would expect them to do much more than offer you replacement parts. Its been 3 years. Hopefully your spring harvest will make you forget about the expense of keeping equipment running. When I have tractor problems, always seems I get a few more bales on the next cutting. Keep your chin up. Good Luck. G


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

How long was the warranty?


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

The burnt honey sucks...I would make some meade.

If warranty is out I would replace the components myself. Perhaps add inline a water level switch or thermal switch to prevent overheating from happening again

Somtimes calrod type heaters have thermal fuses, like in a kitchen oven to prevent "thermal events" ie fire. Typically they are one shot or must be reset at a very cold temperature like liquid nitrogen.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

1. I am not "hammering" anyone. notice the question mark in title. that was fishing for someone from ML.

2. I did call & explained what happened. I got what I believed was "sorry Charlie".

3. I will follow Radars advice. 

4. I am looking for a why it happened more than anything. I spend $1400. & a $200. part fails maybe I talk the next guy out of buying that product from same co. that aint gonna stand by it. If you sell crap maybe we just say so. I don't sell or install junk, it comes back to haunt ya. btw, I understand that ML is an employee owned co. folks that understand customer service look out for themselves. 
thanks for the suggestions. sorry if it sounds a little ranty. I am going to reread all & take a productive route. 

I am in a service oriented field. I am a self employed remodeler. when my customers call me b/c they have a headache & I happened to sell them aspirin every time. I treat them as valuable. "Uh sorry Charlie the warranty ran out we'd love to sell you another one". well I happen to know of others that sell what you do & if you want to treat me like that seeya! I didn't post this for any other reason than to reach a rep & find out why it happened, maybe get some respectable response. sorry I don't respect "sorry Charlie".


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Will you continue to buy from Mann Lake in the future. 

Thermostats and calrods are fairly keep, you'll be able to find replacements no problem. The money is in the stainless


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I respect client service, etc, but do not see how years after the warranty has expired you expect them to do free repairs.

Anything you buy has to have an unspoken warranty for life?


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

OT. Love your input, & I hold your advice in high regards. reread what I have posted. nowhere did I say I wanted anything for free. I may have implied, I didn't mean to. Hey when this one burns out in two yrs, ten seconds after warranty runs out we'll sell you another one. I don't mind paying to have it fixed. I don't care to spend $200. on more junk. 
I am not impressed with someone answering the phone that is short on customer service skills. In my profession we are considered "Resolutionaries". I have a prob I need a resolution. How about you talk to someone that knows about these things maybe your heater needs a part, or a tweek of some sort. 
I have worked in grocery stores, restaurants, gas stations & more. I know service. You want to tick off someone that spends a large portion of there budget in your store like that, that's a good way to do it. Suggestion; get someone else to answer the phone. 
I wouldn't rule out buying from ML again. one bad transaction does not one bad co. make. I have made many mistakes. It's how you correct them. I would like follow up & resolution from someone that appreciates loyal customers. 
btw. I called them last season about it. I used the bottler two seasons. I am only trying to get it resolved now b/c I need it. I remodel, run a farm & keep bees. the faster I go, the behinder I get. should have said that @ the beginning.
.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Fair enough. 

As you said, taking Raders advice may be the best available option. Could also mean that if there is some design flaw in the part you could replace with a better quality part.

Sorry if I sounded over the top, I did actually ask if you wanted it done free or if the issue was they would not do it at all, but that was not clarified.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

LB, I kind of thought you were ranting a little too. Sucks about the part. Like Rader and Oldtimer said, maybe you find a different manufacturer and get a better part at a fraction of the cost. 
Like Burns asked...... Will you use Mann Lake in the future? Good Luck G


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I did say I would use them again. that is if I get a proactive response from someone that appreciates loyal customers.
as I stated; the person on the phone called me & told me that they had never heard of the heaters doing that......ok, maybe you call your supplier & talk w/them about. if I am the supplier maybe I want my engineering dept. to field this concern. if the part we make overheats & burns up somebody's place that could be a problem. why when it was on one of the lowest settings did it cook the water completely out? duh! it got really hot! ok. LB says he'll take another one.
I am not looking for anything more than service of the stuff you sell. Hey maybe we should find out whether or not selling this particular piece is good for our business.

Biggraham...I would love to finish my beestuff & get some more hay in. all after work!!


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

lakebilly said:


> I did say I would use them again. that is if I get a proactive response from someone that appreciates loyal customers.
> as I stated; the person on the phone called me & told me that they had never heard of the heaters doing that......ok, maybe you call your supplier & talk w/them about. if I am the supplier maybe I want my engineering dept. to field this concern. if the part we make overheats & burns up somebody's place that could be a problem. why when it was on one of the lowest settings did it cook the water completely out? duh! it got really hot! ok. LB says he'll take another one.
> I am not looking for anything more than service of the stuff you sell. Hey maybe we should find out whether or not selling this particular piece is good for our business.


I agree. Well stated........ G


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

First, this was an electrical part, which can have a larger range in part lifetimes. You did get several years of useful life from it.

If my memory is correct, Kelly sold bi-metal thermostats and cal rods at an economical price for years. 

Maybe it is time to step up to two thermostats in parallel. One in the water and one in the honey. Your setup, although as supplied, was less than optimal.

Crazy Roland


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I like Roland's idea of two thermostats, but in electrical terms, they need to be wired in _series _in order to function as over-temperature safety switch.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

lakebilly, I understand your situation because of my recent experience buying a $7000 Hustler Commercial lawn mower. The belt for the mowing deck failed after 26 hours of operation -an obvious flaw in the belt. There was no warranty on the belt. Did I buy a replacement belt from the dealer? Definitely not! I bought a much heavier belt for less money somewhere else. If I understand your situation, that is kind of where you are....You don't want to buy another inferior and short-lived part for repair. Take rader's advice and shop around.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

If I bought 30 gallons of your honey and by the time I got to the last 5 and it was crystallized and I called ya and said hey what are ya going ta do the honey I bought from you a year ago has gone bad What would be your response?? Something to the effect of sorry Charlie. Maybe you would give me a free 5-gallon bucket of honey which is about 200 bucks here. The customer is NOT always right. Suck it up, get over it, move on, life is a beach..


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I am a very small operator; but I buy almost everything that I buy from Mann Lake because of the free shipping. My experience with a problem product was that they even paid for the return shipping.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

These things are easily removable for a reason....it is the part that will need replacing.

I've never liked the thermostats on these things (we have 2 of them), but they are the standard and from an engineering perspective, having the thermostat and heater be an off the shelf integrated unit means quick replacement and simplified engineering.

I've considered bypassing the thermostat and using an industrial thermostat instead...but no matter how sophisticated the thermostat is, a relay can always fail.

Nothing with a thermostat should ever be trusted unattended unless there is triple redundancy and you check on it regularly.

Note that the thermostat for your home is sold separately from your furnace....for a reason. The same reason that this thing can be removed and replaced in 5 minutes...without calling a plumber.

It is a replaceable part that failed after 2-3 years of use. If you can find anyone that offers a warantee of 3 years on a submersible heating element and thermostat I'd be surprised.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> Note that the thermostat for your home is sold separately from your furnace....for a reason.


Yes, people like different styles. A failure of your wall thermostat would not compromise the furnace in any way.

You did touch on an important point. Any appliance that heats should be monitored. Usually the heating element fails and it just cools down but in your case it stuck on. I would be as leery of the control as the element. The same thing could happen to the new element and this is where I agree with Lakebilly. If he is willing to ship it back they should service it for a fee with a 90 day warrantee. However is Mannlake a manufacturer or just a retailer? It would have to go back to the manufacturer, and if that is someplace in China then forget it.

Not to bring up old threads but if this was a closed oil system a simple hi limit thermostat would have saved the honey.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Uhhh ..... most likely the problem with _Lakebilly's _tank is that the thermostat _*failed*_! :lpf:



A thermostat that sticks in the ON position will result in the the heater permanently heating until something _unexpected _happens. 


No matter what, water will _not burn_. Can you say the same about the *oil *that you are promoting instead of the water? :scratch:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I think the water system should have at the very least a tea kettle whistle on the vent.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If I were redesigning the tank, _Roland's _earlier suggestion of a second thermostat in _series _with the existing one would be my choice.


With thermostats in series, both thermostats would have to fail for the heater to be stuck _ON_.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

This is a pretty important topic in that I know of many instances where thermostats have failed and resulted in fires, some catastrophic. The idea of multiple thermostats is a good one. Given the fact that a well set up redundancy would be virtually unnoticeable how about some suggestions on how one can easily tell whether a failure has occurred in one? Some sort of warning light perhaps?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

lakebilly said:


> In the past 5 years I have been spending money on equipment like a drunken sailor.


I know the feeling...

and ya, it seems nobody stands by their products anymore! 
my opinion, dig into your pockets a bit deeper, replace the element, carry on with your day


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I would agree with the second stat. They do fail and they do fail on. A second stat set a degree or two higher would have saved the honey.

As for equipment. You buy equipment you take on maintenance costs. Did Mann Lake say they are a service center? If not why would you want them tinkering with your equipment? At least here there are several appliance repair places. I doubt Mann Lake would offer to tune up your truck either. Regardless of how convenient that may be to you. Just because someone sells something does not mean they service it. in some cases they are not allowed to.

Chalk it up to the cost of owning and operating a bottler. Maybe not the most cost effective equipment, maybe it is. I have seen far worse. Try $15,000 in vacuums that crapped out in less than 6 months. We sent one back to the manufacturer at their cost to take a look at the problem. so far after 4 months no response. The warranty on these expire in about 60 days. after that it is sorry folks.

If you do not want to run your operation with the unexpected costs of repairs you need to consider equipment that has extended warranty options. You still pay but at least you can budget for it. Keep in mind many warranties do not cover the cost of labor.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Given the fact that a well set up redundancy would be virtually unnoticeable how about some suggestions on how one can easily tell whether a failure has occurred in one? Some sort of warning light perhaps?


I'm not sure how a manufacturer could easily incorporate a thermostat failure warning system. 

But something that could act as a safety device is an independent method of removing power from the bottling tank when the water gets below a specified level. For instance, this device is intended to protect a water pump from a 'no water' failure:

http://smile.amazon.com/HC3100-Wate...r=8-3&keywords=low+water+alarm#productDetails

Plug the bottling tank into this device, and put the probe in the water (or oil) of the bottling tank. The tank heater should shut down [even with a failed tank heater thermostat] when the water boils off below a level such that the probe is exposed to air.


Note the Amazon listing does _not _specify a maximum power rating for the protected pump/tank. Make sure your tank is not overloading the device before use or find a similar device with a higher wattage rating.

.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

one other thing that can contribute to element failure is inadequate wiring [too small wire, inadequate service to wire]. as the voltage drops the amperage goes up for a given wattage. if you increase amperage of the element this increases the load the thermostat must carry. turn the machine off if no one is watching.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

I think that the *manufacturer *would have been the correct party to get in touch with for this problem, not the dealer. The manufacturer would be in a much better position to help you troubleshoot the problem and come up with a solution. Mann Lake sells the equipment, but did they manufacture it? Not likely. 
After 3 years this product is likely out of warranty. It was nice of Mann Lake to try to help you fix it, and their suggestion of a new heating element was not out of line, but it might be incorrect, or incomplete advise. As others have stated, it could be the thermostat, or something else. The manufacturer might have a technical assistance line to call. Unless it was built in China, in which case it's up to you, not Mann Lake.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> The idea of multiple thermostats is a good one. Given the fact that a well set up redundancy would be virtually unnoticeable how about some suggestions on how one can easily tell whether a failure has occurred in one?


Another thermostat would be the cheapest way out but not the best. Standard temperature controllers come with hi and low limits that will alarm. This is really what you want because it would protect the honey with one device. Another thermostat in series would be a fixed high limit that may prevent boiling over but would just run the process at the high limit until someone shut it off. Maybe PLCnut could pick a cheap one out that would work well with the tanks already maid.

BTW Watlow is a manufacture of temperature controllers.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Another thermostat in series would be a fixed high limit that may prevent boiling over but would just run the process at the high limit until someone shut it off.


Two similar thermostats in series with the same/similar temperature settings is what I was referring to.

In a bottling tank, the thermostat contacts are normally *closed *(electricity flows) until the temperature reaches a set limit - then the thermostat contacts *open *(no electricity flows). When the temperature drops, the contacts *close *again.

The problem occurs if/when those contacts stick together and _don't __*open *_when they should. Putting two similar thermostats in _series _means that as long as at least _one _of those thermostats works like it should, no overheating will occur.

Of course, if you leave a bottling tank on and unattended for an extended period the water can still evaporate and create a problem.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

That would be a royal pain in the butt. How do you set two thermostats the same and know which one to raise or lower if that is your choice. If you are going to do something do it right. Get a temperature controller that has hi and low limits on the set point. If one or the other goes outside the set point limits an alarm is indicated. Usually it is a red or green led but you can get them with an audio alarm or wire one up. Then your process is in control and if it isn't you are warned.


> Of course, if you leave a bottling tank on and unattended for an extended period the water can still evaporate and create a problem.


That is why I suggested oil instead of water.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> That is why I suggested oil instead of water.



Oil is a _fire _hazard! 


Remember ... this thread is about an _overheated _bottling tank.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I'm not sure how a manufacturer could easily incorporate a thermostat failure warning system.


The temperature controller has to have enough intellegence to know when it is outside it's setpoint. This is common everyday equipment off the shelf and has been for many years.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> [/COLOR]
> Oil is a _fire _hazard!
> 
> 
> Remember ... this thread is about an _overheated _bottling tank.


So is honey, wax and proplise. It is not a hazard when the process is under control.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Ace _redesigned _the Maxant bottling tank to be be using oil (instead of water) as a heat distribution medium in an earlier thread ....

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ot-automatic-quot-valve&p=1147261#post1147261


Ace defended his _sealed _oil design as "cheaper and less fuss", but it was only _AFTER _ extensively promoting and defending his oil design that Ace found out that it is the _water _(or oil) that is responsible for distributing the heat evenly to all parts of the bottling tank. 


Acebird said:


> Rader, how much do you think having that fragil sight glass on the tank cost? If the manufacturer were going to produce the bottling tank with a sealed oil heat transfer it wouldn't be as big. It would actually be lighter than it is now. Really, look at the design of the space heater. There probably isn't a quart of oil in that thing and it puts out 1500 watts. What do they rate the hot water heater on the Dadant tank? [HIGHLIGHT]How do they get the heat all the way around the tank if it is generated by the red device on the side? How can it possibly be even?[/HIGHLIGHT]


Cart before the horse, perhaps? :scratch:

:ws:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Oil is a _fire _hazard! 
> Remember ... this thread is about an overheated bottling tank.



Acebird said:


> So is [HIGHLIGHT]honey[/HIGHLIGHT], wax and proplise. It is not a hazard when the process is under control.


OK, Ace, perhaps you could elucidate on this a bit - _*honey *_is a potential fire hazard? :scratch::s

What kind of conditions does it take to get honey to burn?



Lets keep in mind that the heater in a bottling tank is an _*immersion *_heater - that is - the heating element is _submerged _in the water between the inner and outer tanks. If the water were to be replaced with oil, the heater would be directly *immersed *in the _oil_. Any honey or wax/propolis is physically separated from the heater by the inner tank wall.


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

I'm really surprised it does not have a high temp limit switch. Almost all home appliances do that have heating elements. For $10 you can install one and move on. All you need to do is figure out what you want for a high limit temp. They are available in many styles, this is just one of them. http://catalog.selcoproducts.com/category/automatic-reset Ya'll make this way to complicated. The energy spent on this thread would have had it researched and done along time ago.

Greg


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

LanduytG said:


> The energy spent on this thread would have had it researched and done along time ago.
> 
> Greg


LOL.

That is true of many threads.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

LanduytG said:


> For $10 you can install one and move on.


Greg which one do you suggest? I looked at one and it had a differential of 6 to 100 degrees. How sensitive is honey?

Why is it that when there is something discussed that is technical on BS it is too much energy spent? If that is your feeling I suspect you are not speaking for everyone. Most people are here to lean or teach.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> OT. I would expect them to say: send it back, let's have a look at it....not: sell you another one.


Is that really what you would do? Is that what happens when something wears out on your vehicle? I think your expectations are unreasonable and would not be a good business practice for anyone.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> What kind of conditions does it take to get honey to burn?


Uncontrollable heat.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Why is it that when there is something discussed that is technical on BS it is too much energy spent?


Technical threads? My little quip was related to the amount of time, energy, and hot air, devoted to husbandry threads. If there was an effort / reward ratio the progress would be interesting.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You are are still here Ot so so what you say is not what you do.


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

Acebird said:


> Greg which one do you suggest? I looked at one and it had a differential of 6 to 100 degrees. How sensitive is honey?
> 
> Why is it that when there is something discussed that is technical on BS it is too much energy spent? If that is your feeling I suspect you are not speaking for everyone. Most people are here to lean or teach.


This is not rocket science and no need to reinvent the wheel. All that's being talked about is a safety to shut it down when something goes wrong. It should have that anyway and its hard to believe it doesn't. If you want good control then you need to get rid of the junk that's on it and buy a better controller. A lot of choices in electronic temp control that will keep it within a couple of degrees and most under a $100.

Greg


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Acebird said:


> You are are still here Ot so so what you say is not what you do.


Won't argue with that. I don't work very hard these days, what's your excuse?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Is that really what you would do?


For some reason he is not here, no where to be seen. I suspect he is done venting and realized he is as much to blame as the equipment.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> So is honey,


Honey is a fire hazard? I'd love to see you set it on fire.


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

Took all of 2 minutes to find something that will control with precision. Has proportional band and everything.

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=20_3

Greg


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> I'd love to see you set it on fire.


Wow, didn't you give instructions on how to burn a hive for AFB? Does the honey put out the fire? Will a tire burn? Probably not if you use a match.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

LB, did you buy this tank new? I have had two MAXANT Bottling tanks for years and have never had either the old Heat Controls stick or over heat. Never had water boil or evaporate and burn the honey.

I think that what you should do is contact Jake at MAXANT and see if their Heat Controller will fit your Mann Lake tank. If it does, get one from MAXANT. You'll be glad you did.

I commonly set my bottling tanks at the heat I want and leave it set over night so I can strain honey the next morning or when I get back home in the evening.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

LanduytG said:


> Took all of 2 minutes to find something that will control with precision.


Greg they use to be expensive now they are dirt cheap, I do have reservations on whether they are just another problem though.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Wow, didn't you give instructions on how to burn a hive for AFB? Does the honey put out the fire? Will a tire burn? Probably not if you use a match.


Does the honey put out the fire? The proportions of flammables, wax and wood, to inflamables, honey is so great that the honey gets burnt, carmalized, but it itself does not burn w/ a flame like a candle. 

You can burn honey, but you cannot set it on fire, as you seemed to be saying in your Post. Sure, honey will burn, but it isn't a fire hazard, which is what you wrote. Your body is more of a fire hazard than honey is.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> LB, did you buy this tank new? I have had two MAXANT Bottling tanks for years and have never had either the old Heat Controls stick or over heat.


Where did he say it was a Maxant? Why would he be looking for a MannLake rep if it were a Maxant?


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

Acebird said:


> Greg they use to be expensive now they are dirt cheap, I do have reservations on whether they are just another problem though.


I would not hesitate to use and electronic controller. These days they are very reliable. This one is fancy and has alarm outputs too. I'm sure some others do too, I just didn't look through all of them.
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=4

Greg


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Your body is more of a fire hazard than honey is.


I don't think so. My body is 98% water unless I have had a couple three Manhattans.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

opcorn:


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

For under $50 this is a great little unit.
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=106

Greg


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Where did he say it was a Maxant? Why would he be looking for a MannLake rep if it were a Maxant?


Where did I ask lakebilly anything about his Mann Lake tank being a MAXANT? I don't know why you are even asking me questions about something I was communicating directly to LB (read lakebilly). I was asking lakebilly, not you. And I was suggesting to him a way to make his situation better. So I don't see why you need to jump all over me for trying to be helpful.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

LanduytG said:


> I would not hesitate to use and electronic controller. These days they are very reliable.


I have used a bunch of them but it is like anything else, some suck and some are great.


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## plcnut (Mar 8, 2013)

Is the heater a Chromalox?
Do you have the 110v or 220v model?
The Chromalox are a higher end heater, but they all fail in time, especially in tap water.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You're a glass half empty sort of guy, aren't you, Brian?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Where did I ask lakebilly anything about his Mann Lake tank being a MAXANT?


Sorry Mark, I did misread your post. Half empty, half full, doesn't make a difference it is still half. It only makes a difference to a liberal arts major.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> I am not happy & need a heater for my bottler.


I have two that I took out of my MAXANT tanks so I could replace them w/ new ones. I think someone else has first dibs on them, when I can lay my hands on them again. But, if they only want one I could send you the other one. Or you could order one from MAXANT and be up and running again before the weekend. That's what I would do.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Half empty, half full, doesn't make a difference it is still half.


Speaks volumes.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> My body is 98% water unless I have had a couple three Manhattans.


Manhattans or not, if your body is 98% water, that could explain a few _anomalies. _ :lpf:

According to the _Mayo Clinic_ ...


> Water is your body's principal chemical component and makes up [HIGHLIGHT]about 60 percent of your body weight.[/HIGHLIGHT] Every system in your body depends on water. For example, water flushes toxins out of vital organs, carries nutrients to your cells and provides a moist environment for ear, nose and throat tissues.
> 
> http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/water/art-20044256



_University of Rochester Medical Center_ version ...


> Need a reason to drink water? Water is essential to good health—and life. Up to [HIGHLIGHT]60 percent of an adult’s body weight[/HIGHLIGHT] and about 74 percent of a newborn’s body weight is water, making it the largest single substance in the human body.
> 
> http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=1499


Note that part about newborn _babies _having a much higher water percentage than adults!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

And now you know why alot of honey packers use hot water heat from a boiler, modulated by a zone valve or capillary controlled valve, to heat their honey. The boiler temp is set fairly low, and the water is circulated in pipes around the tank. I helped build these setups, and heated millions of pounds of honey without a problem, or a PLC.

Crazy Roland


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

:lpf:................ Rader..................... G


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Mark, I did buy new.

PLCNUT. not sure, I will look @ it. I got my honey extracted & hopped a tractor. 

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=106
How would this unit connect to heater? It is a 110.

As I have stated; I am in a service oriented business. I have to deal w/issues all the time of failed whatevers. I don't think it is too much to ask from someone that has gotten a lot of my money to look @ the situation & say , "it hasn't happened b4, he a loyal customer, send it back we'll have a look @ it, but you may have to buy another."

I have way too much to do to read all these posts that have nill to do w/moving forward. thanks y'all for the input....got hay to tedder....bees to dust....lawn to mow....etc.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Did you consider asking for someone w/ more authority than the person answering the phone?

"bees to dust". Huh? What are you dusting bees w/ and for?


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Mark. I did not, & should have back when it happened last season. I get focused on so many things I lose track of time & spent conversations. 
I am going to sugar dust my bees. I have wet boxes & crystallized honey supers that I am going to put on @ some point. 

My uncapper developed a leak last year & 47 medium supers sat in my shop till I put 32 of them on hives I could get to in Feb. saved my bees. I had zero honey last year & no time to fix my uncapper till two weeks ago, & install new motor on my extractor. I am a shinola shuffling disaster dealing captain of chaos. I moved, had surgery & now have a hernia....axe me what day it is or what my name is.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Darn, u r in tuff shape in more than one way. I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe Brian could lend you a hand?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

lakebilly said:


> How would this unit connect to heater? It is a 110.


By one of the relay outputs. You will need a thermocouple and special wire to sense the temperature. Provisions would have to be made to mount the thermocouple.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Acebird said:


> For some reason he is not here, no where to be seen. I suspect he is done venting and realized he is as much to blame as the equipment.


 What does this mean? & directed @ whom?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> And now you know why alot of honey packers use hot water heat from a boiler, modulated by a zone valve or capillary controlled valve, to heat their honey.


There is no reason why a small guy couldn't use an electric hot water tank and do the same thing. You could even do it with LP gas using an RV hot water tank. The heat source doesn't matter what matters is the control.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

lakebilly said:


> http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=106
> 
> How would this unit connect to heater? It is a 110.


The product linked above has an instruction manual available at the link, and I have also provided a direct link to that instruction manual.

To control the power for the bottling tank heater, see the wiring diagram *Figure #11 *shown in the manual. Note that in addition to the _PID Temperature Controller_ itself, you will need a separate external relay/contactor to control the power to the bottling tank heater. The _PID Controller_ internal relay can only handle 3 amps, and your bottling tank draws more power than that, so the external relay is needed.

Figure 4 covers the thermocouple (temperature sensor) wiring.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Your body is more of a fire hazard than honey is.





Acebird said:


> I don't think so. My body is 98% water unless I have had a couple three Manhattans.


Now I'm wondering what procedures are in order to prevent Spontaneous Human Combustion.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

post # 66 is on target.


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

You don't need anything special for a temp probe. All it needs to be is a K type, and if you have a 1/4"NPT port you can use this one High Pressure Adjustable Regulator with Type 1 Connection Listed LP Hose or if not this one will work fine http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_3&products_id=56 both have 6ft of wire to get to the pid controller. While I was at it I would use one of the alarm outputs say pin 5. Now you have a good controller with and an alarm. This is the relay I would use unless you need more than 25 amp capacity. http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=9 and it gets better you can add the flashing buzzer for the alarm http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_33&products_id=215 All in all I think you would have a very good control system for under a $100, then add the heating element which I'm sure with a little research you could get for $100. Problem fixed for $200 the price Mann Lake wants for just the element.


Greg


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Note that if one were to choose to use the relay identified by _LanduytG _in post #88, the wiring diagram in Figure #10 (of the PID instruction manual) is the correct one to use. (The "SSR" shown in Figure #10 is a 'Solid State Relay' and expects a low voltage DC control input, which is available at terminals #6 and #7 of the PID.)


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## dphillipm (Mar 27, 2013)

I bought a excalibur crossbow & scope 6 years ago. The scope messed up, and I emailed the company about getting my scope repaired. The next day I recieved a repair number, and a address on where to send my 6 year old scope. Five days after mailing my scope for repair I recieve a brand new scope. This is the way to pass your business on to the next generation. It does cost to do business the right way, but the return in advetisment out ways the cost.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I had same experience w/Bushnell. they didn't care when or how long. it was their product & they stood behind it. very rare. guess what? I buy Bushnell scopes/binos.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That's OK for a business with plenty of "fat" built into their profit margin. They can afford to do the extra, plus the good profits they make off each customer are an incentive to invest in them.

But times are changing, things are not what they once were, globalisation has meant margins are falling in some sectors.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ace wrote:

There is no reason why a small guy couldn't use an electric hot water tank and do the same thing. 

You may find that in the long run, electricity and water wash downs do not mix. There are non electric controls that work well, do not have delicate thermocouple wires, and can be liberally hosed. It is a matter of choice. I choose the robust.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> I choose the robust.
> 
> Crazy Roland


I would too if I were a large company with many employees using the equipment. But for myself I do what is most economical.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

lakebilly said:


> I had same experience w/Bushnell. they didn't care when or how long. it was their product & they stood behind it.


Who is the manufacturer of the bottling tank that you had problems with?


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I don't think so. My body is 98% water unless I have had a couple three Manhattans.


Acebird .... IMHO...
This explains a lot of your posts over the past few years. 

I'm very glad for this post at least I have a reason to buy Maxant. Even if the part is not American made can at least call Maxant and find out what will fit.If they have the part in stock he is only an hour away at least I can ride to go get it.


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## HungryBear (May 28, 2012)

Russ, I would be happy to look at it and see if a Maxant one would fit. And anytime you need equipment I would be happy to see if I can earn your business in some way. I know you are busy and the free shipping is nice, but I think having a local person you can work with would go a long way towards out weighting the free shipping. I really just need to know the hole size and thread count if you are interested in replacing the whole unit. Like Mark, I have had great success with my Maxant equipment. But I don't leave it on for long periods on time. Let me know if I can help in some way.



lakebilly said:


> Mark. I did not, & should have back when it happened last season. I get focused on so many things I lose track of time & spent conversations.
> I am going to sugar dust my bees. I have wet boxes & crystallized honey supers that I am going to put on @ some point.
> 
> My uncapper developed a leak last year & 47 medium supers sat in my shop till I put 32 of them on hives I could get to in Feb. saved my bees. I had zero honey last year & no time to fix my uncapper till two weeks ago, & install new motor on my extractor. I am a shinola shuffling disaster dealing captain of chaos. I moved, had surgery & now have a hernia....axe me what day it is or what my name is.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Ben, I have been meaning to look at it & post the manufacturer. I would like to know if it can be repaired. It really has very few hours on it. I just finished getting my hay in (only broke the baler twice). I only got on the computer to see if I could find out how much confectionery sugar is needed per hive so I can dust my bees. Because I am not mechanically inclined to fix or know what is being discussed here I haven't visited this post in a while. I wish I had the time to vet all the suggestions. This site needs a discretionary editor to delete the rif raf that accumulates. I wish your attitude about customer service was the norm....it used to be.


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