# Purina Hearty Bee Thoughts



## snl

First I've seen it..........


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## fbeefarm

a little pricy. first time I saw it as well


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## mike17l

There is no ingredient list on the webpage. Someone said the main ingredient is chicken blood. Would like to confirm.


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## My-smokepole

I got a 15 lb samaple bag just for asking.


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## mike17l

My-smokepole said:


> I got a 15 lb samaple bag just for asking.


Is there an ingredient list on the bag? Can you post a picture of it?


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## Ian

mike17l said:


> There is no ingredient list on the webpage. Someone said the main ingredient is chicken blood. Would like to confirm.


Yes that is what I read. Dried sprayed poultry blood
Can someone comment on what they are after using this product? Does it have to do with essential fatty acids?


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## hex0rz

My-smokepole said:


> I got a 15 lb samaple bag just for asking.


https://www.purinamills.com/bee-supplement/campaign/hearty-bee-supplement-trial

So you have over 1k hives then?

I think Im going to be denied a sample since i dont...


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## Armstrong and Family

> a little pricy. first time I saw it as well


My guess would be that the reason many haven't heard of it, and that its still pricey is that Purina is still trying to perfect it, and figure out how it performs in the real world, hence the samples to commercials. Once they are truly confident in it, then it will be pushed more, and bulk pricing will become a thing. That being said, The initial price per pound of sub isn't the deciding factor IMO. I look at what the feed conversion rates are, then factor in the cost to figure out how much it takes to "make" a frame of brood.

Robbie


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## My-smokepole

No I know someone else that has way less that the 1k and he got it. I figure that if he got it I could try to.


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## hex0rz




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## rainesridgefarm

I think this could turn into a pr nightmare for beekeepers. Pictures of chickens being drained of blood and bees eating it. Now I know there are a lot of feeds out there that are unappealing but this does not sound like our honey eating customers would approve.


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## texanbelchers

How about for Purina's PR, they didn't spell "ask" correctly.


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## marios

Was at purina St Louis a year ago, they talked about it but would give very little details other than they had been working on it for some time. We saw about 100 hives they used for experimentation. Notice they say shb will like it less than other brands, well they certainly had lots of beetles.


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## rwurster

What they sent me and some mixing instructions


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## Armstrong and Family

If you don't mind, keep us in the loop.

Robbie


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## Cloverdale

I think this product is gross to feed honey bees.


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## hex0rz

Wow 56% protein?!


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## jean-marc

Cloverdale said:


> I think this product is gross to feed honey bees.


No kidding, I fully agree.

Jean-Marc


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## rwurster

hex0rz said:


> Wow 56% protein?!


Yeah it looks like it would be a good product however their site keeps throwing my browser a weird error and I can't log back onto it. I really just wanted to see the weight of the bag, hoping it was at least 50# for that $90 price tag.


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## loggermike

Definitely NOT going to be feeding spray dried poultry blood to my bees!


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## jean-marc

rwurster said:


> Yeah it looks like it would be a good product however their site keeps throwing my browser a weird error and I can't log back onto it. I really just wanted to see the weight of the bag, hoping it was at least 50# for that $90 price tag.


It is a 40 pound bag. No apparent discount for larger orders.

Jean-Marc


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## Cloverdale

Seeing the interest in this product what am I missing? Are you people seriously considering using this to feed your honey bees?


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## Ian

$90 a bag isn’t far off
As long as it mixes into a patty, per lbs wet is good


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## Oldtimer

Blood probably does have a lot of goodies in it that bees could use.

But in my view it would be a bad thing if this became widely used. At some point it will get into the public domain that bees are fed blood, and it's not going to help honey sales or general perceptions of bees and beekeepers.


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## Greeny

I'm a newbie, so very inexperienced, but I don't get the concern over allowing the bees to feed off a "gross" product. If the bees choose to feed from it, and it isn't harming them, then I would go for it. Especially if it's cost effective and easy to use and doesn't breed SHB. The water my bees choose to drink from is usually the grossest, nastiest dish available to them. I don't like touching it and would never drink it myself.
Anyone done any experiments with chicken blood? I wonder if bees would take up from a pool of chicken blood?


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## Oldtimer

There will be a lot of people don't care. But there will be some who do find it offensive and go yuck, I'm never buying honey again. I think that would be quite a few people but let's say it only 20%. Honey prices are bad enough now there must be some struggling commercials already, remove 20% of the market and it's Houston we have a problem.

I belive bees getting fed dried blood will offend the sensibilities of some people and Purina must have figured that, I'm surprised they even put such a product on the market.

I would urge beekeepers to boycott the product and do the industry a favor.

Especially if it shows up in my country where honey is niche marketed overseas and fetches good money based on the perception of clean green and pure New Zealand, people buy cos they like the sound of that. Then they here there might be dried chicken blood, don't have to be a genius to realise that is not going to work for us. 

If the product ever does come here to NZ I'll be doing my darndest to stop people buying it, so take that on board Purina. That's if it is not killed in America before it even gets toi other countries.


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## loggermike

Agreed, OldTimer. My wife and I had the same reaction-disgust.
As far as economical- Mann Lake delivered their top of the line Ultra Bee dry 1500 lbs tote (during the last sale) for $1598.00. 30 bags worth @ $53.26 per 50 lbs.


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## Greeny

Oldtimer said:


> Especially if it shows up in my country where honey is niche marketed overseas and fetches good money... .


Maybe this will just be a refinement to the niche market and actually increase prices for your honey. Easy marketing: "No chicken blood was used in the feeding of our bees".


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## FlowerPlanter

rwurster said:


> View attachment 36791
> 
> 
> What they sent me and some mixing instructions


56% protein; The first ingredient is distiller yeast which is about 30%, dried blood meal is around 80%. It looks like it would need to be a 50/50 mix to get that percent. The rest is vitamins and mineral, with the exception of wheat flower which is worthless.

I wonder how many years of feeding before they develop a taste for blood? Stinging blood sucking vampire bees!


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## Cloverdale

Im with you OldTimer; I associate blood with carnivorous animal; honey bees aren’t carnivorous like some other types of bees are. I think this is a way the big company, namely Purina, is going for more big bucks at the exspense the honey bee. Hopefully there will be an uproar about this.


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## msl

protein is protein
Why do people freeze drone comb and then put it back for mite control?
because the bees will eat the dead pupa and recycle the protein back in to jelly 
animal by products are common in live stock feed so I don't see a ligimite issue here....

but a PR/social meada one... ya, should be fun to watch


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## Rader Sidetrack

Cloverdale said:


> Im with you OldTimer; I associate blood with carnivorous animal; honey bees aren’t carnivorous like some other types of bees are.


Hmmm .... honey bees eat bee eggs and larva. Seems like that makes them not only carnivores, but _cannibals_!  



> When protein levels drop, nurse bees neglect young larvae, and preferentially feed those close to being capped. When protein levels drop lower, nurses cannibalize eggs and middle aged larvae. The protein in this cannibalized brood is recycled back into jelly.
> 
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/


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## lemmje

msl said:


> protein is protein
> animal by products are common in live stock feed so I don't see a ligimite issue here.



That's where I have been while i read this thread. I don't have a use for it on my little hobby farm, but i also don't have a problem with it as a product others use. I mean, if nothing else, it is a way to use more of the by-products of chicken farming, so it is actually a conservationist move. Well done Purina.


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## TWall

Public perception can be very powerful in controlling what farmers do. Look at GMO's. In the retail market public perception becomes reality.

Purina is trying to add value to a 'waste'/low value product. I don't think they will start producing chickens solely for the purpose of harvesting blood. I wonder about blood from other meat animals? 

I guess blood sausage/pudding is not a very common dish in the US. Is it still widely eaten in europe?

Tom


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## Storm

I see they are giving out samples but only if you have over 1000 hives


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## rwurster

I understand public perception of a product and what people might find offensive, and everyone's opinion about their specific situation or personal convictions is good for debate. I don't ever tell my honey customers about how my bees, for whatever reason under the sun, like to go to the neighbor's stock pens and drink water from hoof prints left in the manure. I'm also not a fan of blood, I remember my grandparents cooking blood sausage when I was a kid and the thought of the smell makes my lunch want to come up.

There's plenty of gross stuff that we eat; eyeballs, monkey meat, chocolate covered bugs, tripe, hot dogs (mystery meat) and although its gross it has nutritional content. My point being that even though something in this feed is contrary to some of our sensibilities the mix is high in protein and is not going to harm the bees. It honestly does look like a decent product with a bit of what I would consider a high price tag. Im not commercial and I don't feed pollen sub. I don't plan on using it but if they sent me a sample I would  :gh:

Here's the mixing instructions they sent:


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## Oldtimer

To those who don't have a problem with it, realise it's not about whether you have a problem with it.

It's about whether some of the honey buying customers have a problem with it, and trust me, some of them will. All honey will be tainted in the minds of some. 

Honey costs a lot more than sugar and people only buy stuff with honey cos they have warm fuzzy images of bees, and folks see it as wholesome. That could all be set to change.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Oldtimer said:


> To those who don't have a problem with it, realise it's not about whether you have a problem with it.
> 
> It's about whether some of the honey buying customers have a problem with it, and trust me, some of them will. All honey will be tainted in the minds of some.
> 
> Honey costs a lot more than sugar and people only buy stuff with honey cos they have warm fuzzy images of bees, and folks see it as wholesome. That could all be set to change.


I'm with you. The subjective perception of some will be negative and with social networks amplifying the opinion and social pressure of an early minority may become viral and massify to much more.


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## rwurster

Haha yeah I understand that one. Just from the comments here I would think that their PR dept better be on their toes :lookout:

Thinking back, I did make pollen sub once (have to try everything once) and most of the ingredients for the sub came from the health food store. So for $50 I had nowhere near 40# of dry mixable feed, more like 15# of dry feed. I asked the commercial near me about it and he invited me to help put on pollen sub and treat before he migrated to his yard in California for almonds. His sub came in boxes, premade.

Maybe $90 isnt too bad, its just not something in my management routine because there is typically a lot of elm pollen early spring here. Ninety two pounds of patty from one bag doesnt sound too bad but I dont know what the weight of the typical pollen patty is for reference.


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## Michael Palmer

Oh great. First we had zombie bees, and now it's vampires.


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## hex0rz

I'm surprised they don't tell you to cut it 50% with granulated sugar. Guess it must be because of all the brewers yeast.


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## John Davis

When I was researching ingredients two years ago I talked with a vendor looking for brewers yeast, He made reference to Keith J who also had contacted him as a source. In addition to yeast the vendor had other protein supplements such as Promax which is dried plasma and Vital Pro which is dried blood. Both sourced from beef, South America if I remember correctly. He also had a product called Peptide 80 (80% protein). Comparing the amino acids and the ratios to DeGroots work looked like some portion of those products in the mix might help the amino acid profile in the over all mix. I did not pursue it further since I did not need the quantity to make it worth the trouble.
Keith may be able to comment on particle size and other considerations. 

I agree that customer perception is a big deal, maybe chicken blood free will be the new equivalent of treatment free or raw unfiltered honey.


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## funwithbees

Oldtimer said:


> To those who don't have a problem with it, realise it's not about whether you have a problem with it.
> 
> It's about whether some of the honey buying customers have a problem with it, and trust me, some of them will. All honey will be tainted in the minds of some.
> 
> Honey costs a lot more than sugar and people only buy stuff with honey cos they have warm fuzzy images of bees, and folks see it as wholesome. That could all be set to change.


Some honey buying customers have a problem with everything and anything we do or don't do. Cant please everybody! :lookout:
Nick
gridleyhollow.com


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## Armstrong and Family

To those that have never kept bees, squishing a queen because she isn't performing well may seem harsh and cruel. To those that understand the fact that bees are livestock, it make sense to cull poor performing queens. 

A lot of people seem concerned about the initial cost. I may be crazy, but it makes more sense to look at the rate of gain in a pollen sub, then factor in how much it cost to make a frame of brood. Sure this product may be more expensive intially, but if it performs better than ultra bee, then it may exceed that economic threshold and actually save money in the long run.

Also judging from what everyone is saying, no one has actually tried it out yet, so how can we begin to hate it, if we havent seen the results?

Just my two cents
Robbie


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## loggermike

All PR problems aside, the price is too high! Unless they can offer quantity prices(this is the commercial forum-right?) AND make the case for superiority over industry standard subs already in use, I do not see much of a future for Purina Bee Chow!


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## mbholl

We tried their free sample. 
1) very finely ground. Becomes airborne too easily. 
2) difficult to mix being so fine. 
3) tastes horrible,,, yes, i tried it. 
We mixed to their specification. Tried it on 12 hives. Placed our own pollen sub mix in same hives. Same time. Hives ate our sub at twice the rate. 

I wouldn't recommend the product. Nothing special. Hives that we placed only our sub patties looked equal to or better then the 12 test hives.


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## JWPalmer

mbholl said:


> 3) tastes horrible,,, yes, i tried it.


You did read the part where it contains dried chicken blood?


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## Ian

35-40 micron is what is needed. So it being difficult to mix being so fine is merely a detail. It needs to be that fine.


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## rwurster

mbholl said:


> 3) tastes horrible,,, yes, i tried it.


I would have tasted it too


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## JWPalmer

Ewww. This is not like the old Purina dog food that was kinda like corn nuts to me. A 50 pound bag made for some serious snacking when I was growing up.


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## hex0rz

Ian said:


> 35-40 micron is what is needed. So it being difficult to mix being so fine is merely a detail. It needs to be that fine.


Wonder how this would compare to bee ate?


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## Ian

hex0rz said:


> Wonder how this would compare to bee ate?


BeePollenate has no animal products in its mix. Micron size of 35-40, extremely fine, it’s a yeast based supplement. Mixes like water sets up like a soft cake. 
But $$$$


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## hex0rz

Sorry, i meant in terms of performance.


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## Live Oak

Armstrong and Family said:


> To those that have never kept bees, squishing a queen because she isn't performing well may seem harsh and cruel. To those that understand the fact that bees are livestock, it make sense to cull poor performing queens.
> 
> A lot of people seem concerned about the initial cost. I may be crazy, but it makes more sense to look at the rate of gain in a pollen sub, then factor in how much it cost to make a frame of brood. Sure this product may be more expensive intially, but if it performs better than ultra bee, then it may exceed that economic threshold and actually save money in the long run.
> 
> Also judging from what everyone is saying, no one has actually tried it out yet, so how can we begin to hate it, if we havent seen the results?
> 
> Just my two cents
> Robbie


Totally agree! I have been feeding my bees Ultra Bee for about 5 years and am VERY happy with it as are my bees especially during the Fall and Winter. I applied for a free sample of the "Purina Bee Chow". It is worth trying and evaluating. I have been buying my Ultra Bee in the 1500 lb. totes which keeps the price as economical as possible. I try to wait and catch it on sale. Purina will have to come off that $90 per 40 lb. bag price and offer a bulk discount for larger beekeeping operations. If it works as good or better it could be worth it in the long run as you mentioned. Some competition for Mann Lake I think is a good thing. :applause:


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## mbholl

Ian -- its finer then any soy flour or brewers yeast we've used. Maybe you'll have better luck with it.

We use an Imer 360 indoors to mix our sub. Id never mix the Purina indoors.


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## Ian

mbholl said:


> Ian -- its finer then any soy flour or brewers yeast we've used. Maybe you'll have better luck with it.
> 
> We use an Imer 360 indoors to mix our sub. Id never mix the Purina indoors.


Nor this BeePollenate, the fine texture is very dusty. But the pulverized grain is very important.


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## Oldtimer

Question - a figure of 80% chicken blood has been mentioned but where is that confirmed by Purina?


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## Ian

Dried poultry blood is on list of ingredients


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## Oldtimer

Yes but it doesn't say 80%, is that stated somewhere?


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## Lauri

The yellow jackets will think they've died and gone to heaven.


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## Ian

Oldtimer said:


> Yes but it doesn't say 80%, is that stated somewhere?


Oh I see, no I just see spray dried poultry blood


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## FlowerPlanter

Oldtimer said:


> Question - a figure of 80% chicken blood has been mentioned but where is that confirmed by Purina?


Spray dried poultry blood is 80% protein (per the internet), distillers yeast is 30% protein, the rest is mostly vitamins. To get 56% protein that they claim it would need to be around a 50/50 mix of the two. Ingredients are required to be listed in order of the quantities used.


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## Oldtimer

OK thanks Flower Planter


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## vtbeeguy

Ended up talking to a representative from Purina yesterday in regards to this product. Essentially they just started selling this product in November. I asked about bulk quantities he said its been the #1 issue brought up to him. I guess they're currently working on coming up with a tote full bulk deal but going to be at least a couple months was the impression I got. 
Personally the chicken blood bothers me a lot less than thinking about the contents of hot dogs or bolonie. What I want to know is how well it works. Time will tell the more people use it I picked up a bag to try so I'll give my report.


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## sebashtionh

any one who tried this can you tell me if you got it not to turn to a brick in the hive? i followed the instructions but it turns hard in the hive.... the girls that ate it i do see an improvement in the brood, but lets see if i can get it to not harden..... so all the girls can eat it


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## Cloverdale

Good grief, reading through these posts just gets my blood boiling (no pun intended but it is a good one isn’t it?). I don’t think we can compare bees with people! I have a choice of what to eat, who cares what’s in a hot dog? And who cares if honey bees eat their eggs/brood, that’s what they do because they’re honey bees! WE take care of them, they are managed animals different from regular old livestock. Our honey bees have enough problems without adding this stuff to it; you are not considering this for your bees but for YOU. And Purina is jumping on the bandwagon to make money on beekeepers like you guys. What if it was Monsanto putting this product out? There would be totally different comments and attitude. Someone mentioned the ingredients in cat/dog food, well think about it, you’re putting the remnants of that pet food, into your beehive! something that they CANT use for anything else, and some smarty pants came up with an idea of how to make money on something they used to throw away or burn or whatever they do with crappy old wrung out chicken blood.


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## mike17l

I have no problem with the ingredient, unless the honey customer does...



Cloverdale said:


> What if it was Monsanto putting this product out? There would be totally different comments and attitude.


Where can I buy this Monsanto bee food? I support this great company every chance I get.


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## herbhome

I did an informal survey of Sweet Wife and Daughter Child (37yo) and their response was a resounding "YUCK!)


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## Ian

Does the collective Beekeeper opinion look upon dried egg as part of patty recipes negatively?


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## lemmje

Ian said:


> Does the collective Beekeeper opinion look upon dried egg as part of patty recipes negatively?


The further we as a people get away from nature, the more we find nature -- to quote Sweet Wife and Daughter Child above -- "Yuck".

I have exactly zero problem with dried chicken blood being the source of protein. But i hunt and grow the majority of the food i put on my table, so i am not the right demographic.


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## rwurster

Cloverdale said:


> ... and some smarty pants came up with an idea of how to make money on something they used to throw away or burn or whatever they do with crappy old wrung out chicken blood


Yes, the rivers of "crappy old chicken blood" have now run dry thanks to Purina. The chicken blood dumping problem in the midwest has been solved! :gh:

>I have exactly zero problem with dried chicken blood being the source of protein. But i hunt and grow the majority of the food i put on my table, so i am not the right demographic.

Same. Come to think of it, the neighbor's dog doesn't have much of a problem eating squirrel blood when he catches one, or its bone marrow, or its brain, or any of the other questionable substances one might find within said squirrel. I just checked, yes, the dog is still alive and healthy


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## Ian

My addition of dried powdered egg was put in to boost the vitamins and fats.
An animal product all the same, just not an animal byproduct


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## loggermike

I quit using dried egg yolk when the price went higher than bitcoins. Never saw any difference in results.Its an individual choice. Folks can feed pig brains to their bees for all I care.


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## Oldtimer

Doubt egg would be much of an issue for most since it's a thing the majority eat as a stand alone product, and are fine with.

However as is correctly pointed out egg is an animal product so not natural for bees, just, it doesn't have the same ick factor as blood for the public if they became aware, doubt it would make the headlines.

Anyhow, looks like there's enough folks in favor to make this happen, all the best for your public relations when word gets out.


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## herbhome

Pretty sure they didn't throw it away. Every waste product from the processing plant is repurposed into pet food, livestock feed and fertilizer. If the tag says beef or chicken by-products it's rendered blood meal or feather meal.


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## Oldtimer

Over the years I have wondered why North American (Canadian included) beekeepers are paid less for their honey than beekeepers in any other western country.

Oversupply perhaps? Well if the public don't eat much, there will be oversupply.

For some years there has been negative commentary in the public domain about the activities of commercial beekeepers, sections of the green movement have run a successful campaign to paint modern beekeeping practises as evil, and honey tainted by association. This misinformation campaign, like any good misinformation campaign, includes elements of truth, but they are exaggerated and added to. The misinformation campaign has been targeted at North American beekeepers, and the public in other countries who believe this stuff, generally think it applies only to North America.

Adding blood to bee feed can only in the end, provide fodder to dig this hole deeper, lower public perception of how bees are farmed, and what honey is, even more. But hey, for very little gain, or even no gain, some people want to do it anyway. All I can say is, I just don't get that, but, it's your call. Rather your country, than mine.


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## Cloverdale

Ian said:


> Does the collective Beekeeper opinion look upon dried egg as part of patty recipes negatively?


Dried egg is nothing like chicken blood Ian.


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## Cloverdale

Oldtimer said:


> Doubt egg would be much of an issue for most since it's a thing the majority eat as a stand alone product, and are fine with.
> 
> However as is correctly pointed out egg is an animal product so not natural for bees, just, it doesn't have the same ick factor as blood for the public if they became aware, doubt it would make the headlines.
> 
> Anyhow, looks like there's enough folks in favor to make this happen, all the best for your public relations when word gets out.


Well said Oldtimer.


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## Cloverdale

herbhome said:


> Pretty sure they didn't throw it away. Every waste product from the processing plant is repurposed into pet food, livestock feed and fertilizer. If the tag says beef or chicken by-products it's rendered blood meal or feather meal.


AND now they add honey bee food to that.


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## Ian

Oldtimer said:


> Over the years I have wondered why North American (Canadian included) beekeepers are paid less for their honey than beekeepers in any other western country.
> 
> Oversupply perhaps? Well if the public don't eat much, there will be oversupply.
> 
> For some years there has been negative commentary in the public domain about the activities of commercial beekeepers, sections of the green movement have run a successful campaign to paint modern beekeeping practises as evil, and honey tainted by association. This misinformation campaign, like any good misinformation campaign, includes elements of truth, but they are exaggerated and added to. The misinformation campaign has been targeted at North American beekeepers, and the public in other countries who believe this stuff, generally think it applies only to North America.
> 
> Adding blood to bee feed can only in the end, provide fodder to dig this hole deeper, lower public perception of how bees are farmed, and what honey is, even more. But hey, for very little gain, or even no gain, some people want to do it anyway. All I can say is, I just don't get that, but, it's your call. Rather your country, than mine.


We don’t have access to any European markets due to GMO pollen


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## Ian

Cloverdale said:


> Dried egg is nothing like chicken blood Ian.


I do agree in regards to animal product vs animal byproduct by definition 
But
Animal product is an animal product all the same.


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## Oldtimer

Ian said:


> We don’t have access to any European markets due to GMO pollen


But is that not exactly why it's so important to position your own product in a positive light so your own population will buy it?

Put it this way. I don't have figures for Canada. But for the USA there are something around 3 million hives, and 340 million people. Here in NZ we have around 1 million hives and 4 million people. So the USA has 3 times as many hives as we do in NZ, but 85 times as many customers to sell the honey to. It should be a no brainer that in the USA there should be a massive undersupply of honey and good prices being paid for it. But there isn't, and that's about public perception. They are not buying enough.

There's other factors like cheap Chinese imports, but again, that's about public perception. The public should percieve genuine USA produced honey as a good, pure and wholesome product as against dodgy imports. But doesn't seem like they do, and there are reasons for that. And throwing blood based bee feed into the mix sure aint going to help.

Just saying this stuff cos it's how I see things from looking in from the outside. And I'd like to see you guys being paid what you deserve, at the moment you are not. But end of day not really my problem, I admit that. But certainly will be if Purina attempt to bring their blood based bee feed here to my neck of the woods. If it comes here and is used I can guarantee it will damage our brand and eventually affect what beekeepers here are getting paid.


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## JWPalmer

herbhome said:


> Pretty sure they didn't throw it away. Every waste product from the processing plant is repurposed into pet food, livestock feed and fertilizer. If the tag says beef or chicken by-products it's rendered blood meal or feather meal.


You are right on the money there. The blood, guts, feathers, etc. from processing chickens are dried, ground up, and turned into...chicken food. And to paraphrase Oprah, you thought they ate corn. Protein is protein, whether the source is animal or vegetable the structure of the various amino acids is the same. We just need to get past the YUCK factor.


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## Ian

OT I don’t agree at all. We sell our honey and it’s consumed as “natures product” , because it is. Consumers see it that way. We have a very good relay with our consumer. 
The distinction between Argentina honey and Canadian doesn’t translate in many consumers eyes, labeling for one, but price rules the day over here. Mix Chinese into the batch and THEN we make that connection to the consumers to source their honey locally. 
Canada has a very high reputation for quality honey, Japan demands it. 
We can’t sell into Europe because if they thing called GMO which (I’ll step aside from this topic) we can do nothing about. 
Honey is as close to commodity as the rest are traded. My honey competes on the foreign market. The US China Argentina drives our pricing.


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## Oldtimer

OK, well you are the man on the ground over there, if that's your view, I'll have to accept it. 

You are being well paid.


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## Cloverdale

Ian said:


> I do agree in regards to animal product vs animal byproduct by definition
> But
> Animal product is an animal product all the same.


Well, putting aside definitions here for a moment, would you tell your customers that there is chicken blood in your honey bee food? To me and many others, this seems to cross a line....I respect your beekeeping practices and do watch your utube for learning, but this would draw the line for me.


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## Ian

Oldtimer said:


> OK, well you are the man on the ground over there, if that's your view, I'll have to accept it.
> 
> You are being well paid.


It’s the world commodity gig. 
A beekeeper in Ukraine messaged me the other day happy he was able to price $1.5 per kg...same honey as mine. 
What ya going to do about it? Ship it all to New Zealand by the sounds of it


----------



## Oldtimer

Which is why I said Western countries. Of course in countries with low wages and low prices honey will be worth less, it's relative to what people can pay, and local beekeepers will accept. But also realise that NZ competes in the same world market with Ukraine.

I think Ian has the smarts to know where NZ is, he was refering to NZ selling honey to Europe but Canada cannot because of GM.

Which is an interesting aside. There is pressure here to introduce GM crops, and good arguments for doing so. But we don't, not due to ethical objections, but because it will affect our exports. Some folks don't like GM and will not buy our products if we were growing GM crops here. Thus, we can export honey to Europe, Canada cannot.

A good illustration of the importance of public perception. Chicken blood bee feed is not about how well the bees will do on it, it's about how the customer will percieve it, what sales will be lost.


----------



## Ian

Cloverdale said:


> Well, putting aside definitions here for a moment, would you tell your customers that there is chicken blood in your honey bee food? To me and many others, this seems to cross a line....I respect your beekeeping practices and do watch your utube for learning, but this would draw the line for me.


Ya I agree, I’m no too fussy about that image either, you’d think they would of had some Beekeeper consultation before launch. If you’d notice, I’m merely playing devils advocate. 
Ya I know OT is in New Zealand, but those promised prices are within a market place out of my reach throughout Europe. 
Though emerging markets in Japan and China has gotten interest in our marketing department. They ship their **** over here and we send our good stuff back. People in China who are becoming wealthier know better than to eat their own food! Lol


----------



## Ian

OT, wheat farmers are paid on parity as the wheat product we produce. Same everything except for economy. 
Ukraine falls victim of circumventing and zero government support in regards to it because they support it!!! (All speculative  )


----------



## Oldtimer

Thing is, wheat is sold basically in a giant world auction, the differences from one wheat to another are factored in and known, any price divergences are quickly narrowed and closed by the market. Honey is a different ball game due to factors that do not apply to wheat.

But anyhow, I'm not an economist. Only joined this thread to throw in my 2 cents against blood based bee feed, I can not see positives but can see potential negatives, I'm against the use of this feed.


----------



## rwurster

Plus NZ has manuka honey, I mean how do you compete with that? I get great pricing for my honey, maybe Im a good bs-er or just plain sexy, I dont know. I get $20 for a pound and a half (pint) for my specialty honey, $12 for a pound and a half (pint) of my "regular" honey. I get it, I'm in a niche market and not selling on a commercial scale to a wholesaler. 

Also if I fed this product to bees its not during a time I'm collecting honey. I think any public misconception about this product can be set straight. As far as European markets and GMO pollen are concerned, I cant buy non-GMO field corn, soybeans, or alfalfa in bulk anymore. Neither can our tenants farming our 200 acres. We personally can't escape that and its something that's out of our control. 

I really don't think the low wholesale prices are based on poor public perception of honey here. If we stopped imports the price would blow through the roof. The people I sell to don't know much about honey but have major concerns about CCD , but when they leave there's no doubt in their minds they just bought the best honey north, south, east, or west of the mighty Mississip 

Here's the FDA handbook on acceptable levels of rat feces, maggots, insect eggs etc that is in our food:
https://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRe...mation/SanitationTransportation/ucm056174.htm


----------



## Oldtimer

rwurster said:


> Also if I fed this product to bees its not during a time I'm collecting honey. I think any public misconception about this product can be set straight.


Well, it would appear we will find out. Just glad you are doing the experiment, not me.

I'll be a fly on the wall at your stall Rwuster. - "Yup, sure I feed the bees chicken blood but at only $20 a pint it's premium purest honey, yup there's no blood in it, you can trust me, honest"


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## rwurster

At least you're funny OT :gh:

I dont feed pollen patties, but if I did I would tell people that I used Purina pollen patties if asked. I would also point out that a bee has two stomachs, one is used exclusively for nectar 

What I wouldnt tell them is how the bees go out at night and drain the neighbor's chickens of blood :no: :lookout:


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## Oldtimer

Well they do love to drink water off of a cow poop. But there's some things always been that way and cannot be changed, then there's some things we can do something about.

Thanks for taking my last post in good humor .


----------



## Ian

The cattle industry has learnt a lot when it come to feeding animal byproducts. The issue nearly bankrupted our Canadian cattle industry...and I’d argue has never come back the same way, 
However I have mixed with dried egg in my previous batches to glean the fats and vits, my sights have turned onto 2 appealing products FREE OF ANIMAL PRODUCTS, and I will not be looking back.


----------



## rwurster

Yeah I was going to mention that too but eh, they probably do worse.


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## Ian

...cattle poop is merely water and grass... 
old cowboy joke :\


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## johnny2

another on how the public looks at honey, they dont want you to treat for foul brood or mites they want their honey pure. they wont hear you say the treatments are done without honey boxes on. maybe they dont know the operation well enough to understand what that means and maybe they dont listen but at any-rate they dont want treated "honey" they want your bees to die. "I read 1 article once and I dont want it".


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## HarryVanderpool

Sounds like we will have to stop selling package bees and go strictly to nucs.
That way we can put, "cage free' on our label.

k:


----------



## Marcin

HarryVanderpool said:


> Sounds like we will have to stop selling package bees and go strictly to nucs.
> That way we can put, "cage free' on our label.
> 
> k:


Wonder how long before someone runs with this idea? Harry, you should trademark "cage free bees".


----------



## JoshuaW

I will not be feeding dried chicken blood to the bees. I am against it.


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## Skinner Apiaries

I'm missing something here it is this thread turning into tail gater land. I go to commercial forum, and I have to read through the organic greenies worried about blood and they're emotions. But at least I got to figure out i can try it for free, it's not discounted bulk yet, and some guys are trying it out and gonna report on it. Neat product. I look forward to more options, especially one from a feed company that will have more capital to try things like this. 

Now for my tailgate opinion y'all are all doing as well and being unmoded. To the kiwi going to boycott: Purina, in America, is pretty large, if you said boycott cattle supplement and dog food you'd have something, but Purina is sort of name brand stuff where I am, so it's cadillacing if you feeding it. That said, competition is great for business.

Now as far as farming, if you eat it I probably am or have grown it. Posting this from a combine in the middle of a field, found it by happenstance looking for some nucs, as my point is some people don't have perspective.

Those worried about the honey customer that's one thing, but let's have a nice talk about what I spray on crops. All my seed is treated with neonics that get in pollen thanks to super long half-life. I spray blooming vegetables repeatedly usually at night, if mustang maxx kills a sucking bug but not a nectar eater please explain it to me. I put counter over corn as well and we all know how that went in Germany. And guess what it's all in the honey, welcome to USA. And we ain't even talked about the animal protein we feeding livestock. I guess it's mostly rendered hogs. 

The point is this, please if y'all gotta tailgate it, don't spam the crap out of the thread with I'm against it, and oh no it's blood. Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe we should use a 1040F to do access to the commerical forum. I miss how it was back in the day... 

Maybe I missed the point. Oh well.





JoshuaW said:


> I will not be feeding dried chicken blood to the bees. I am against it.


----------



## Ian

Skinner, though I enjoyed reading that post, I too have a very diverse perspective. As I take a break from forking **** out of the calving stall.. all this Bull **** talk about opinions not meeting commercial grade smell about the same as the end this manure fork. Opinions are as such, angled moreso here in the commercial forum, if the alternative voice bothers you this much, conversation probably isn’t your best asset. Every Beekeeper is small in another beekeepers eye.
Cheers, and all the best!
Ian


----------



## JWPalmer

Hey ya'll. Bees have bees consuming animal blood as part of their diet for thousands of years. Judges 4:18 Look it up.


----------



## Live Oak

A Purina representative called me today to verify my shipping address to send me a free sample. We got to talking about the bee feed and how it compared to Mann Lake Ultra Bee and some others. 

I like to feed my bees dry feed in the Mann Lake Pro Feeders. The treat the dry feed like pollen and take it back to the hive. It makes for less opening up the hive in cold weather. The Purina representative told me I could feed their dry feed in this fashion and if I understood him correctly they add lemon grass or some other essential oil to make it attractive to honey bees. 

We also discussed selling their feed in 1,500 lb. or 1,000 lb. totes to make shipping and purchasing more economical. I like the Mann Lake Ultra Bee it works well with my beekeeping operation but I also like competition in the market place. After that little shenanigan the USDA and Mann Lake pulled buying up nearly 70 million pounds of sugar at about 8 cents a pound, I think Mann Lake needs some serious competition. 

I am looking forward to testing out the Purina feed but they are going to have to do some serious work on pricing to be competitive with Mann Lake.


----------



## Oldtimer

Skinner Apiaries said:


> I go to commercial forum, and I have to read through the organic greenies worried about blood and they're emotions......Maybe I missed the point. Oh well.


Indeed, you missed the point.

Point I've been putting forward is that this has potential to hit your bottom line. That's of commercial interest, no?

The customer does not hear explanations about sub feed timing and other aspects of hive manipulation, which are beyond them. They do not believe that no blood has contaminated the honey. This is just another lie from Big Ag, far as they concerned. So what you spray poison all over your crops? That cost sales with folks going organic, just you don't know it. But EOD people HAVE to eat and HAVE to buy your crops. They do not HAVE to buy honey though.

No doubt Purina have done their research and produced a sub that bees will do well on. But there are other subs that the customers have had no issues with.

It's really the same argument as GM. Farmers dismissed it as an "emotional" issue and went for it. Now Ian is complaining he is shut out of the European market and the extra dollars that would bring. An that's because there's enough people over there that do not hear facts, they rely on emotions.

Now some beekeepers going to dismiss blood based feed as an "emotional" issue and go for it. When word gets out, honey in general and all beekeepers will get tarred with the same brush. Here's how it will happen. Some extremist vegan will hear of it and post it on their blog. Word will spread to a few thousand people. They will talk, share, and exaggerate. A few short years later it will be generally held believe that blood in honey is yet another evil that those despised commercial beekeepers have managed to do.


----------



## rwurster

Counter, neonics, roundup, are all part of the ag landscape here Skinner. If the greenies are whining loudly now just wait until they get their way and there's no food to feed their little greenies. If the worst thing people have to worry about is dried chicken blood being put into a feed supplement for bees they should thank their lucky stars lol

And, off topic, I think they should make a Sideliner Forum for we little guys, it might give the commercial forum some breathing room :thumbsup:

Edit: Maybe this chicken blood thing will let that Chinese honey finally have its day in the sun


----------



## Ian

Oldtimer said:


> It's really the same argument as GM. Farmers dismissed it as an "emotional" issue and went for it. Now Ian is complaining he is shut out of the European market and the extra dollars that would bring.


Well, let’s keep this in the correct context. 
Yes I did say that...but it’s nickel and dimes as compared to the prosperity GM tech has brought the farm. 

I know we are speaking in “general” terms In Regards to the complexity of the market place, and general terms is best in regards to our casual conversation.

I understand your point though


----------



## Oldtimer

Agree Ian. In my mind, with ever increasing human population, GM has to come. I simply used GM, and the negative effect it has had on your honey prices (which you implied yourself), as an illustration how emotions affect prices.

Blood based sub does not have to come, because there are good alternatives.

But looks like this is a done deal, and my opinion and that of anyone else who doesn't want to use it is just emotional greenism. I'll go away now, and enjoy the commercial prosperity that comes from understanding how to market honey to people, based on their emotions.


----------



## Ian

No, with all the competition over here for protein supplements, I doubt maket share will go to product with animal product


----------



## rwurster

There definitely are competitive alternatives, Purina is a newcomer to this market. 

By greenies I meant the people here who have a major problem with our modern ag practices. I know OT doesnt agree with the product and that's fine by me. 

GMO manure smells the same here as it does in Ians neck of the woods, just saying


----------



## Oldtimer

Skinner Apiaries said:


> To the kiwi going to boycott: Purina, in America, is pretty large, if you said boycott cattle supplement and dog food you'd have something, but Purina is sort of name brand stuff where I am, so it's cadillacing if you feeding it.


Just want to clear that up, you misunderstood me completely. I have no ambitions to boycott Purina, or bring the company down. I actually feed Purina to my own animals and will continue to.

What I said was I will be boycotting the blood based bee feed and doing my best to ensure other beekeepers here do also. Do not be so keen to dismiss the Kiwi opinion, there are good reasons why Kiwi honey is well priced and it's not about luck it's understanding marketing, which basically is understanding how to appeal to the customers emotions. Course, my opinion is worth crap in the big boys commercial forum that should have a special 1040F access code, right .


----------



## grozzie2

Oldtimer said:


> J Do not be so keen to dismiss the Kiwi opinion, there are good reasons why Kiwi honey is well priced and it's not about luck it's understanding marketing, which basically is understanding how to appeal to the customers emotions.


My understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong on this, there was a time some time back when Manuka honey was considered second rate, and you folks couldn't sell it for a decent price locally. then some smart cookie got to thinking, and started marketing the manuka stuff thry health food channels praising it's 'medicinal benefits'. That concept went well and it took off world wide. today, I can buy a 75g jar of manuka honey in the local health food store for about 15 bucks. I know those little bottles are a pain, and expensive, we've done some runs in them, they cost more than standard bottles, so figure 2 bucks of that 15 is for the bottle and fancy label. That still leaves 13 bucks for 75g of honey. Allow half of that for shipping around the world, that's 6.50 for 75g, which in round numbers works out to right around 40 bucks a pound for the honey in that bottle.

Some may disagree, but, me thinks the kiwi types are pretty good at marketing honey, and in fact, I think they are actually the best in the world at it.


----------



## Oldtimer

Thanks for the complement Grozzie. 

But the value of manuka honey is just public perception, any honey could be promoted, and over the next few years we will be doing that with other honeys that are unique to NZ. 

But if there is any perception the bees are being fed blood, that would risk killing it totally. Can't see us going that route. Feeding bees blood is for people prepared to sell to the bottom end.


----------



## Richinbama

You should really watch the documentary on tv and Netflix An out honey. Over 50% of our honey is imported from China through other countries. Also, the cut their honey with rice based syrups, ect.


----------



## Ian

Nice , this is the commercial forum I remember. Opinions and straight talk


----------



## squarepeg

Ian said:


> Nice , this is the commercial forum I remember. Opinions and straight talk


----------



## Live Oak

JoshuaW said:


> I will not be feeding dried chicken blood to the bees. I am against it.


You DO realize that one of the favorite sources honey bees utilize for minerals is urine don't you??? Where ever livestock such as horses, goat, and cows pee you will find honey bees foraging minerals for brood production. At least in my neck of the woods. I find the bees around my mineral blocks after a good rain busily carry back the salt/mineral laden water back to their hives from the puddles around the mineral blocks. The chicken blood is just another source of minerals and protein. Agreed probably not the most publicly appealing and appetizing but if it works and brings good results, I am willing to try it and if made economically competitive, will use it.


----------



## Marcin

Live Oak said:


> You DO realize that one of the favorite sources honey bees utilize for minerals is urine don't you??? Where ever livestock such as horses, goat, and cows pee you will find honey bees foraging minerals for brood production. At least in my neck of the woods.


Very interesting. When you see bees foraging urine, are they also foraging for pollen? Or are they collecting urine minerals during time of pollen dearth? 
I keep some hives on a livestock farm and will pay closer attention this year to this. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Live Oak

Marcin said:


> Very interesting. When you see bees foraging urine, are they also foraging for pollen? Or are they collecting urine minerals during time of pollen dearth?
> I keep some hives on a livestock farm and will pay closer attention this year to this. Thanks for sharing.


From what I have observed, the bees are foraging for minerals. I notice this when it is dry out and the bees are working on a urine spill or after a rain around salt mineral blocks it is very common to see 100's of bees taking the salt mineral block water back to the hives. These bees are almost never foraging for pollen.


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## JWPalmer

I have never seen bees foraging urine, probably cause I don't live on a farm. I do see them getting the fertilizer (mineral salts) enriched water from potted plants on my back deck. I am sure that the minerals, whatever their source, are consumed by the bees for colony maintenance and do not end up in the honey. Same goes for the chicken blood. Who is feeding pollen sub when the flow is on anyhow? Once the supers go on, all the bees get from me is water, maybe with a little Vitamins and Electrolytes Plus added.


----------



## Branman

In one of my yards, the bees were randomly landing on patches of grass and dirt in the neighbor's yard, so he asked me to take a look. I told him that his dog probably peed there and they're collecting the minerals. He said, no, it was me! I guess he liked peeing outside.


----------



## Michael Bush

>Well, putting aside definitions here for a moment, would you tell your customers that there is chicken blood in your honey bee food? 

I don't think it would be Kosher anymore since blood is not Kosher.

>Hey ya'll. Bees have bees consuming animal blood as part of their diet for thousands of years. Judges 4:18 Look it up.

Judges 4:18: And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle.

What am I missing? Maybe you meant 14:8?

Judges 14:8: And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcass of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcass of the lion.

I see nothing about blood, though, but this honey would not be Kosher either because it is in a carcass...


----------



## AHudd

Branman said:


> In one of my yards, the bees were randomly landing on patches of grass and dirt in the neighbor's yard, so he asked me to take a look. I told him that his dog probably peed there and they're collecting the minerals. He said, no, it was me! I guess he liked peeing outside.


Maybe he should check his blood sugar.

Alex


----------



## Cloverdale

Michael Bush said:


> >Well, putting aside definitions here for a moment, would you tell your customers that there is chicken blood in your honey bee food?
> 
> I don't think it would be Kosher anymore since blood is not Kosher.
> 
> >Hey ya'll. Bees have bees consuming animal blood as part of their diet for thousands of years. Judges 4:18 Look it up.
> 
> Judges 4:18: And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle.
> 
> What am I missing? Maybe you meant 14:8?
> 
> Judges 14:8: And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcass of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcass of the lion.
> 
> I see nothing about blood, though, but this honey would not be Kosher either because it is in a carcass...


Well said Michael, the hive was there but it didn’t say they were eating the blood of the lion. Anyway you can’t seem to talk reason with some of these people. Same reactions on Bee-l. I just gave up. Deb


----------



## Live Oak

Got my free sample today. Once the girls empty out one of the feeders I will try filling it up with the Hearty Bee. The sample they sent me was maybe 5 lbs. Will post my observations.


----------



## JWPalmer

MB, I think I had one to many of my favorite evening beverages and got dyslexic for a moment. Seems to be happening more frequently, might not be the beverage. Yes, I meant Judges 14:8.


----------



## rwurster

>there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcass of the lion.

That would be one heck of a cutout


----------



## davel

rwurster said:


> >there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcass of the lion.
> 
> That would be one heck of a cutout


Only if the lion was still alive...


----------



## jcase

Here is the info packet that comes with it.

https://imgur.com/a/yfJdw


----------



## jcase

Mixed up some according to the liquid instructions. Really dark purple. Seems to say in suspension well. Going to put it to the test shortly.


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## mike17l

Had some sitting somewhere it should not have been, dogs destroyed it. So that is a potential downfall. Made patties, bottom was covered in SHB larvae. Put out some as dry feed, it was not touched, put out ultrabee a few days later and it was taken readily. 

For the price, I will stick with ultrabee.


----------



## jcase

mike17l said:


> Had some sitting somewhere it should not have been, dogs destroyed it. So that is a potential downfall. Made patties, bottom was covered in SHB larvae. Put out some as dry feed, it was not touched, put out ultrabee a few days later and it was taken readily.
> 
> For the price, I will stick with ultrabee.


Dogs seem to love any and all pollen sub. I have had them run off with ultabee patties.
I'm sticking with UB as well, unless trial show this works A LOT better. This stuff smells and looks gross, but I'm no bee


----------



## mike17l

jcase said:


> Dogs seem to love any and all pollen sub. I have had them run off with ultabee patties.
> I'm sticking with UB as well, unless trial show this works A LOT better. This stuff smells and looks gross, but I'm no bee


I have had them take patties too, but never had them destroy a bag... either way, Im sticking with UltraBee.


----------



## Live Oak

I just opened the bag Purina sent me. As it turns out, I think it is a 15 lb. bag. I put it in the freezer and forgot about it until the wife asked me what it was. I opened it to pour into a seal top 5 gallon bucket so I could try substituting it for the Ultra Bee I put out in my Mann Lake feeders. The smell is awful! I didn't even want to chance putting that stuff in my pollen sub feeders. Not this time of year when I am trying to get my hives well fed for the Winter. I will try mixing it with Ultra Bee to dilute the nasty smell. There is just no way I would bees would be or could be drawn to eat this stuff in patty form. The protein and nutrient analysis sounds good but I just don't think my bees would take this stuff unless I mixed it maybe upto 10% in Ultra Bee. I use at least a 1,500 lb. tote a year, sometimes more and have had very good results with UB. For now, I think I will stick with something I know works. 

Has anyone else tried feeding this stuff since the last post.


----------



## vtbeeguy

I'm using it currently in party form to help build up for winter. So far con It dries out quickly (I added extra sugar syrup than the recipe and some oil to compensate). That seems to take care of that. Some are devouring it quickly some are just picking at it but all are eating it without issue.


----------



## Cloverdale

What is the consensus on this honey bee feed for those of you that have used it?


----------



## Live Oak

Cloverdale said:


> What is the consensus on this honey bee feed for those of you that have used it?


I am currently feeding it to my bees. They don't appear to like it. I am now mixing it at roughly 10% with Ultra Bee Dry Feed and the bees seem to be consuming it OK. I am not that impressed with Hearty Bee. I think I will stick with Ultra Bee Dry Feed. I will finish up what I have left of the sample pack but that's it.


----------



## Chicago_ks

This has been an interesting thread. The whole time I was reading it I was wondering if the general public was even aware that beekeeper give supplemental feed at all.
ks


----------



## JWPalmer

I would be willing to bet that a large number of beekeepers don't know they need to provide supplemental feed to keep their bees alive through winter. Last year I had a lot of pollen frames, this year, not so much. The most active hive I have is the one with the jars of pollen sub in it ( my home made feeder). After varroa, I think poor nutrition is a leading cause of winter hive mortality. "My bees died and there was lots of honey still in the hive". Really, and how much POLLEN did you see? Uh huh.


----------



## snl

JWPalmer said:


> After varroa, I think poor nutrition is a leading cause of winter hive mortality. "My bees died and there was lots of honey still in the hive". Really, and how much POLLEN did you see? Uh huh.


Correct me if I’m wrong, but Pollen is the protein used for raising the young. Carbs (sugar, honey, HFCS, etc) is what substains them during the winter.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> Carbs (sugar, honey, HFCS, etc) is what sustains them during the winter.


I think a lot depends on how you define "winter". 

Of course bees need carbs in winter, but they need carbs at all other times of the year too.

According to the astronomical calendar, in the Northern Hemisphere in 2019 the last day of winter is March 20 2019 (spring equinox). If one chooses to consider the Meteorological winter, the last day is the end of February. references

Either way, in most areas of North America, by the "end of winter" bees are starting (at least) to raise brood. _No_ pollen (or sub) available at that time would be a problem.


----------



## Oldtimer

The pollen is needed before winter, soon enough that a well fed crop of fat young bees are raised to see the hive through the winter.


----------



## JWPalmer

OT is on the money there. Protein going into winter assures well nourished winter bees that can also make royal jelly without consuming additional pollen when none is available. However, it weakens them substantially if forced to do so, or so I believe. Bees in my locale will have capped brood in another week or two. Without pollen, they will not make it into March. Our red maples start in the last weeks of Feb so it usually works out if the weather cooperates. Last year it did not.

Further information on the importance of bee nutrition can be found in the paper "Fat Bees, Skinny Bees" 
www.agrifutures.com.au/product/fat-bees-skinny-bees-a-manual-on-honey-bee-nutrition-for-beekeepers/

It is discouraging to hear that bees do not particularly care for the Purina product. For the time being, I will continue to use the Ultra Bee which the bees do seem to at least tolerate when no other natural pollen is available.


----------



## Oldtimer

An interesting thing about that. 

Conventional wisdom is that adult bees do not consume pollen for their own use. Me, I have my doubts about that.

I am no scientist, but am well experienced at cleaning bee poop off my vehicles. It sure isn't just honey, anyone can see looking at it there is a major component of pollen in it.


----------



## Cloverdale

OT “I am no scientist, but am well experienced at cleaning bee poop off my vehicles. It sure isn't just honey, anyone can see looking at it there is a major component of pollen in it.”

I bring my car in to get “detailed”, a good clean inside ( from muddy grankids) and wax once a year; the first time I brought it in the worker was upset because he couldn’t get the yellow spots off the car  As for pollen, I have noticed in my area a lack of amount in the Fall the past two years. If there is a good day in February I put out a plate of Ultra Bee and the bees devour it. Have to replenish it a few times during the day.


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## Oldtimer

Interesting Cloverdale, would they be broodless at that time?


----------



## JWPalmer

Deb, I just checked several of my hives and they are still broodless. The bees however are absolutely hammering the pollen feeder and the roar is quite loud. I brought out a quart jar of UltraBee to replenish the jars inside and by the time I got the top off and shook the dead bees out of one of the jars, the bees were into the new jar that was 10 feet away. Did not take them long to find it! Lots going into the hives, very little getting stored as out of 30 - 40 frames I checked today, only one had a few cells with pollen.


----------



## Cloverdale

Oldtimer said:


> Interesting Cloverdale, would they be broodless at that time?


I believe she would just be starting to lay depending on when that nice day shows up in February. If the timing is too early I’ll wait. In addition, I believe there is something happening environmentally here in my locale. 2 years ago my apiary had AFB and I burned 11 hives, leaving me with 6 ( caught it from a purchased nuc). The State inspector showed me a frame of pollen and told me the bees wouldnt use it and the hive would die or supersede the queen. Fast forward to this past year another beek 
( commercial 40+ yrs experience) got AFB and had the same type of pollen frames that I had and was told the same thing. The frames are very heavy and gooey. This year I set up a dbl nuc with new queens and used a frame of that type of pollen and sure enough a supersedure cell was made.


----------



## Cloverdale

JWPalmer said:


> Deb, I just checked several of my hives and they are still broodless. The bees however are absolutely hammering the pollen feeder and the roar is quite loud. I brought out a quart jar of UltraBee to replenish the jars inside and by the time I got the top off and shook the dead bees out of one of the jars, the bees were into the new jar that was 10 feet away. Did not take them long to find it! Lots going into the hives, very little getting stored as out of 30 - 40 frames I checked today, only one had a few cells with pollen.


Doesn’t this feeding of pollen encourage brood rearing? I guess your bees start earlier than mine. Deb


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## Oldtimer

Cloverdale said:


> The State inspector showed me a frame of pollen and told me the bees wouldnt use it and the hive would die or supersede the queen.


That's rather strange I have never heard of such a thing. What was his reason for saying this?


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## JWPalmer

Cloverdale said:


> Doesn’t this feeding of pollen encourage brood rearing? I guess your bees start earlier than mine. Deb


Being further south, yes, the bees start brooding up in January. Our flow is short so a good honey crop depends on having a full sized foraging force by early May.

Point I was making though is that I have had pollen sub available to the bees since October and there has been steady and often vigorous activty at the feeder on flying days. Bees are entering the hives with their corbicula loaded, yet the combs themselves remain strangely bereft of stored pollen. The sub therefore must be being eaten by non-brood rearing bees.

Regarding the encouragement of brood rearing, I am coming to the conclusion that pollen availability does not necessarily encourage brood production so much as the absence of pollen may delay it. Obviously increasing day length, outside temperatures, and necter flow play a critical role as well. Since I am just going into my second winter, I hardly qualify as an expert, but I am managing the bees under this premise and it seems to be working well, so far. When I broached this subject last spring, many told me it would not work, the bees will swarm, etc. The bees did build rapidly and I made 23 splits coming out of winter with 2 hives and a nuc. I lost 10 of the mid summer splits to queens getting eaten/failed to return. Still ended up with 16 total hives, all of which are alive at this point. I also had a few summer swarms but that was unrelated to the early build up.


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## Cloverdale

Oldtimer said:


> That's rather strange I have never heard of such a thing. What was his reason for saying this?


Me neither, not that ?I have much experience. I put this situation on bee-l and had various answers. It isn’t entombed pollen. I sent a sample to someone on there and he took pics of it and tried to start a discussion on it but didn’t pan out. If I can find the pics I will post them.


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## Oldtimer

The inspector was obviously familiar with the situation and must have encountered it enough to figure out what would happen, I just wondered if he also figured out what was wrong with the pollen.


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## Maybee Apiaries

Interesting that we think we can control brood rearing with pollen supplement. Where I am, central Alberta, brood rearing generally starts (slowly) in February. Adding pollen supplement then, two weeks from then, or in early April generally makes no difference in population and losses come May. Of course it doesn’t hurt to have it available, but heavy frames of carbohydrate is what gets them through.


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## Cloverdale

Oldtimer said:


> The inspector was obviously familiar with the situation and must have encountered it enough to figure out what would happen, I just wondered if he also figured out what was wrong with the pollen.






















The above photos were taken by a beekeeper that participates on bee-l (I had sent him a sample) There were mixed opinions on this. At the time in 2016 he didn’t t know why, it was something he had just started observing in some hives, and and this past year I didn’t stay to listen to what he told John. As of now NYS does not have inspectors, I believe one of the Bee Clubs that is involved with ESHPA (the State bee club) will be doing inspections mostly focused on the brood diseases like AFB.


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## Cloverdale

JWPalmer “Regarding the encouragement of brood rearing, I am coming to the conclusion that pollen availability does not necessarily encourage brood production so much as the absence of pollen may delay it. Obviously increasing day length, outside temperatures, and necter flow play a critical role as well. Since I am just going into my second winter, I hardly qualify as an expert, but I am managing the bees under this premise and it seems to be working well, so far. When I broached this subject last spring, many told me it would not work, the bees will swarm, etc. The bees did build rapidly and I made 23 splits coming out of winter with 2 hives and a nuc. I lost 10 of the mid summer splits to queens getting eaten/failed to return. Still ended up with 16 total hives, all of which are alive at this point. I also had a few summer swarms but that was unrelated to the early build up.”
Do you think the bees building rapidly was a result of the pollen feeding?


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## JWPalmer

Yes, but not to the point where it would be considered premature, if there really is such a thing. Last year I was simply placing pollen patties in the hives beginning Jan 18th which is when I first saw baseball sized brood nests. At that time I was trying to force them to jump start. Now I am not so sure that I really "forced" them to do anything. I simply provided them the nutritional means to do what they were already inclined to do. I think that a hive that is already well provisioned would have done the same thing at the same time without any beekeeper intervention. This year I am open feeding the pollen sub and letting the bees decide if they want/need it or not. Based on the activity, I suspect they need it. Why do you think so many hives starve in the springtime? The bees are still trying to raise brood, even with no pollen or nectar coming in yet. They quickly deplete their stores and if the pollen and nectar are delayed...Anyhow, if an early swarming tendency is the price to have a strong, healthy colony coming out of winter instead of some pathetic dink, I'll gladly pay it.


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## Cloverdale

quoted from Rusty Burlew: For many years I didn’t feed any pollen substitute at all, and I experienced no problems. I think the bigger mistake is feeding it too early in the year. Several years ago I experimented with giving supplements earlier, starting in October, and I got myself into a heap of trouble. By the first of January I had huge colonies that needed to be fed almost daily. I was really tired of honey bees by April, so when all those overcrowded colonies began swarming, I was like, “Good riddance!” I was never so happy to see the butt end of a bee in my life.”
Unfortunately my hives need it too.


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## JWPalmer

I follow Rusty as well. My hives still shut down on schedule and are currently broodless. Pollen sub being available, along with a constant source of sugar syrup, did not prolong the brood rearing in the fall, nor has it initiated it yet this winter. Perhaps different locations also have an impact? I wish the role of nutrition in raising and caring for bees was better understood. Like varroa and hemolymph, I think we have parts of it wrong.


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## JWPalmer

From a post on Rusty's blog regarding feeding.

>>
Lara Wilson
December 29, 2018 at 5:40 pm • Reply
[email protected]
Rusty,
What do you think about giving some protein or pollen substitute along with candy boards during winter?


Rusty
December 29, 2018 at 5:57 pm • Reply
Lara,

I think it’s fine as long as you don’t give it too early. Any time after the winter solstice (like now) is great.

>>

While this does nothing for my argument that open feeding pollen sub year round is good, it does speak to the idea that feeding sub in the winter is not as taboo as once thought.


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## Cloverdale

I agree with that; BUT I think location is very relevant too, as in all beekeeping is local. And I dont mind “snarkiness” just for the reason you stated, usually unintended.


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