# virgin queen through excluder



## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Can a virgin queen get through a metal or plastic excluder?


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## Riverratbees (Feb 10, 2010)

Never happened to me but I suppose a virgin could maybe someone else could give better answer.


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## standman (Mar 14, 2008)

Yep. Hived a swarm last year with an excluder between the deep box and bottom board. Visited the apiary late the next morning and saw the queen, petite but distinct, walking around on the landing board! Couldn't tell if she was coming or going, but I quickly pulled the excluder off. Had fresh eggs about a week later.


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## honeybeekeeper (Mar 3, 2010)

Yes they can slip right through an excluder!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Any queen can get through an excluder if she's motivated enough. Although I have seen the stuck in the excluder on one occasion. In theory it's their thorax that doesn't fit, as the abdomen is elastic enough. A virgin queens throrax is it's full size when she emerges.


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

Some beeks have tried using queen excluders to stop swarming, or to try to keep a newly-captured swarm to stay put. Swarm queens, since they have stopped laying and slimmed down for flight, are also known to get through excluders.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> A virgin queens throrax is it's full size when she emerges.


Is that a way to select queens meaning a large thorax?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

He means the thorax, which is not flexible, is the part that doesn't fit through an excluder. Therefore a virgin has no more chance than a mated queen, of fitting through.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> He means the thorax, which is not flexible, is the part that doesn't fit through an excluder. Therefore a virgin has no more chance than a mated queen, of fitting through.


I understood that part. My question is, is a large thorax beneficial? Would you select for a large thorax?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well maybe maybe not, although it should be within the normal range. As a general rule it is assumed a larger queen will have more oviaries and therefore be capable of laying more eggs, and storing more sperm.

If I could choose a queen with a large thorax or a small thorax, I'd take the large one.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Newly mated queens are often found above excluders, which leads one to believe that they rfeturn to the top of the hive or they get thru the excluder. If they get trhru an excluder, it is probably damaged in some way. bent wire of broken zinc.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> Newly mated queens are often found above excluders,


I've seen that, too. I run an upper entrance above the excluder as well as a bottom entrance. That's one of the reasons I asked the question. Did she return through the upper entrance or get through the excluder?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My question is, is a large thorax beneficial? Would you select for a large thorax? 

I select for gentle, productive, healthy bees. I don't care how large her thorax is.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Michael Bush said:


> >My question is, is a large thorax beneficial? Would you select for a large thorax?
> 
> I select for gentle, productive, healthy bees. I don't care how large her thorax is.


If she is still a virgin how do you know if her hive will be gentle and productive?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>My question is, is a large thorax beneficial? Would you select for a large thorax? 
>If she is still a virgin how do you know if her hive will be gentle and productive? 

When we are talking about "selection" for genetics, we are, of course, talking about choosing a queen mother, not a virgin. The point is I breed from queens who's colonies are gentle, productive and healthy. Not from queens with large thoraxes.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

I've more than a few times had laying queens squeeze through excluders; they're an occasionally-useful management tool, but I don't use them routinely on colonies. And it's a queen's abdomen that contains the ovarioles, spermatheca etc. (and hence that some believe large size indicates laying vigor). The thorax is where the flight muscles, breathing apparatus etc. live. Head, thorax, abdomen front to back.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Check your excluder. I've run thousands of hives and if a queen ever got through there would be a hole in the excluder. It doesn't take much and you won't see it looking straight at the excluder, you hold the excluder kind of horizontal, so you are looking along the wires, then any little bends will stand out more.

Also excluders have to be treated with care. When I was learning beekeeping I'd get yelled at if my hive tool even touched the excluder wires.

Large thorax in a virgin will almost invariably equal large queen generally once she is laying.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> Check your excluder. It doesn't take much and you won't see it looking straight at the excluder, you hold the excluder kind of horizontal, so you are looking along the wires, then any little bends will stand out more.
> 
> Also excluders have to be treated with care.


No doubt about it, almost always excluder damage, though sometimes it can be an excluder that dosent seal because of box imperfections and, yes, every once in a while a queen is just a tad smaller or maybe its that she is just more determined. Had one like that in a builder that got through two times through different excluders and destroyed cells both times. Needless to say she didnt get a third chance.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Plastic excluders don't bend but they might have a broken web.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

This just happened to me. I found a few eggs and and larva on the very edge of some supers that were full. I had deliberately eliminated a top entrance on this hive so it points to a queen getting through an excluder. Reading this thread points to a bent excluder wire as being the culprit.
My related question is do those more experienced than I have any special tricks to getting an excluder off that doesn't involve bending it? Invariably it is attached to the top of the frames below it. 
I have made the decision to use excluders, and so saying "Don't use excluders" will not be helpful. Thanks.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

It's really not that difficult Adrian, just requires going around the edge with your hive tool a bit more if it dosent immediately come free, also remember that the excluder has much more strength lifting from the end and not the side.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Hey Jim. I appreciate the tip. It takes a long time to develop beekeeping skills on your own. Practical advice from those who are generous enough to share saves a person a lot of time. Adrian.


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

This may have been mentioned, but maybe virgin queens are more motivated to do so because they feel smaller? Where as a larger mated queen would rarely do so


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I understood that part. My question is, is a large thorax beneficial? Would you select for a large thorax?


I would and I do. When we catch a batch of queens, I discard small queens...and it's the thorax I look at first.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>This may have been mentioned, but maybe virgin queens are more motivated to do so because they feel smaller? 

Virgins seem more motivated to move around, run, hide, etc, so you may be right. Any queen motivated enough can get through one.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

I shake a lot of bees through a shaker box that has a wood bound excluder on the bottom. As far as I know I have never shaken a queen through that excluder, but I am not saying it can't be done.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> I would and I do. When we catch a batch of queens, I discard small queens...and it's the thorax I look at first.


What does size of thorax tell you? The thorax contains mostly muscles which drive the wings and the legs which are attatched to the different segments of the thorax. It also contains trachea and some of the digestive and respritory systems. But, the most important body part it would seem to me would be the queens abdomen, where he reproductive organs are.

I would think that a large thorax, small abdomen queen would be culled, wouldn't it?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Not necessarily Mark. The abdomen changes size with the season and with varying degrees of egg laying. The thorax tells me the queen at least has possibilities. As you say..."The thorax contains mostly muscles which drive the wings and the legs which are attatched to the different segments of the thorax"

Good wing muscles are inportant aren't they...as well as a firm foundation in those legs.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

scdw43 said:


> I shake a lot of bees through a shaker box that has a wood bound excluder on the bottom. As far as I know I have never shaken a queen through that excluder, but I am not saying it can't be done.


I shake the core of broodnests through excluder to stock my cell builders...4 every 4 days. The only time I've had queens go through, the excluder was faulty. I threw away my Mann Lake excluders because they were so poorly made.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

VQ can also slip out of the clam shell queen catchers as well and yes I am speaking from experience and yes this old beekeeper can still move pretty fast in his beesuit if he wants to!


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