# Started fogging today.



## GLOCK

Well i started fogging today never did it before i did all 10 hives in no time[15 min. tops} .
I did a mite count with sticky boards before and after the before was real low in all hives{no more then 5 in 48 hours}but it is only the start of the year here.
The after {3 hours} even lower then before I'm going to do a count in 48 hours and see what they look like then.
I'll bee fogging every 7 to 10 days till fall and i'll let besource know how it goes . I'll give it a year with these 10 hives then we'll know if fogging with FGMO is good for varroa or not .
I did not kill any bees with fogging{and i did them real well } they where calm with in 5 mins. after theywhere fogged.
I'm going to do a alcohol wash with nurse bees as soon things start booming here.
I will update everytime i fog . Hope it works


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## dingo983

*Re: Started fooging today.*

I am definately interested in seeing how it works for you. 2 questions. Did you add anything to the FGMO like thyme oil and do you remove the honey supers before you fog the hive?


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## WWW

*Re: Started fooging today.*

I will be following this thread, thank you.


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## GLOCK

*Re: Started fooging today.*



dingo983 said:


> Did you add anything to the FGMO like thyme oil and do you remove the honey supers before you fog the hive?


NO its straight FGMO i want to see how that works before i add any thing and yes i do have honey supers on some of my hives.
Again i have low mite counts right now. things are heating up we will see how it goes this year.


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## GLOCK

*Re: Started fooging today.*

Well this is my second time fogging and all went well the bees don't really seem to mind plus the whole bee yard is calm with in 5 min. after i'm done and no stings as I stood 3 foot away watching them so they where not that upset or they would of let me know.
I have 5 hives that are crazy big right now and growing if I can keep them from swarming I should get a good honey crop.
My mite count was around 5 mites in 24 hours on sticky boards and some even lower now i'll do a mite count in 24 hours and see.
I don't have any crawlers any where and have not seen many mites in the drone brood so I think my mite count is low every hive seems happy and growing some faster then others but growing.


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## Mike Gillmore

*Re: Started fooging today.*

Hope you stick with it, this will be interesting to follow. 

If you want to really add some depth to your trial, having a couple of control hives that are not fogged at all would give you a nice baseline comparison so you could measure the effectiveness of the fogging.

To further explain ... if the colonies happen to be doing well at the end of the year you won't "really" know if the fogging had anything to do with it. There could always be the possibility that they would be in the same shape if you had fogged or not. You would need some untreated colonies in the same area to be able to determine any impact the fogging may have had. If all you are concerned about is survival rates then a control group is not necessary, they will either live or die. But if you want an accurate answer on fogging I think some untreated colonies to measure against would be very valuable information.


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## Steves1967

*Re: Started fooging today.*

I am going to fog this year too. Fatbeeman has been doing it for a long time hasn't he?


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## Stephenpbird

*Re: Started fooging today.*

I bought a fogger last year, I mixed thymol into the FGMO and that really got the bees grumpy. Did it work? Yes.
I am very interested to see your results using just FGMO.


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## Andrew Dewey

*Re: Started fooging today.*

I will be watching this thread as well. Even though FGMO is "Food Grade," I have a tough time getting my head around fogging with honey supers on. (attempt to let you know this member of your audience)


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## SRBrooks

*Re: Started fooging today.*

I don't have experience with this. Why would you fog if mite counts are low?

Sondra


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## GLOCK

*Re: Started fooging today.*



Mike Gillmore said:


> Hope you stick with it, this will be interesting to follow.
> 
> If you want to really add some depth to your trial, having a couple of control hives that are not fogged at all would give you a nice baseline comparison so you could measure the effectiveness of the fogging.
> 
> To further explain ... if the colonies happen to be doing well at the end of the year you won't "really" know if the fogging had anything to do with it. There could always be the possibility that they would be in the same shape if you had fogged or not. You would need some untreated colonies in the same area to be able to determine any impact the fogging may have had. If all you are concerned about is survival rates then a control group is not necessary, they will either live or die. But if you want an accurate answer on fogging I think some untreated colonies to measure against would be very valuable information.


Last year I had 5 strong hives just crumble in july it was very sad to watch being a hobbyist {I hate to see crawlers} I wanted to be treatment free but as I researched varroa mite I know ya have to try and to let the bees get strong and fight back and with brood breaks /drone frames/ and FGMO fogging/ and most of my hives are on 4.9 cell in the brood cambers might help let them get strong and be able to fight back we will see.
I'm going to do some splits here real soon and I think i'll make a starter cell hive today to make some new queens.
I love my bees and apiary and I know i'll beat the mite one day {hopefully this year} this past winter was a bad one here and I have 10 good hives this spring so I must be doing something right.
Most of my hives are on 4.9 cell in the brood cambers so i'll see how that works out.
Next year i'll do the control hives thing but for this year I want to get the mite in control .
One of many bee keeping goals is to never by bees to make my own and this is the first year I didn't buy bees in 4 years of beekeeping.:thumbsup:


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## GLOCK

*Re: Started fooging today.*



SRBrooks said:


> I don't have experience with this. Why would you fog if mite counts are low?
> 
> Sondra


To stay on top the mites fogging don't seem to bother the bees and mite keep hatching.
I have not seen one dead bee from fogging yet so I don't think it's hurting them.
Did a mite count today after fogging yesterday no difference then before fogging 3 to 5 mites on sticky board.
Not seeing any sign of DWV OR many mites in the brood or crawlers so far the year is going good seen eggs in all hives today and no QCs :thumbsup:


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## GLOCK

*Re: Started fooging today.*

Well here it is mid JUNE and things are moving along and doing well.
I have now fogged 4 times{once a week} And 6 of the ten hives I have are now coming out of a brood break . I had took the queens out of 4 of my production hives right as the flow started to happen and I must say it was a good idea I had no swarms this year and I have honey every ware it was just nuts . I am not seeing many mites I am using SBB with sticky boards and a count before I fogged today was low on all hive no more then 5 mites out of any hives in a 24 hour test. Now after the fogging I had one that dropped 30 now that was 4 hours after the fogging that was a hive that was superseduring and I took the queen out and that was 18 days ago so the brood in that hive is about to be all hatched out and the new virgin queen go out and do her thing and get back to laying some winter bee. The rest of my hive even the ones I have not given a brood break have low mite counts nothing over 5 after a fogging but again the mite season about to heat up plus all brood boxes on most anyway are 4.9. And just to let everyone know breathing FGMO won't kill ya or i'd be dead. My bees are strong this year and I seem to be able to/ keep them in the hive this year /made honey 30qt so far this year/made 6 new nucs/and 10 new queens/ and I have not even started to do splits to get my nuc numbers up so I can sell a few next year. Great year so far and well is fogging working i'm not sure but I have no virus and every hive seems happy we will see how JULY goes .
This is been my best year by far I sold almost 100.00 worth honey half pints are really liked and I get 5.00 a pop.
I do love my bees.


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## cdevier

*Re: Started fooging today.*

I have fogged twice, three weeks apart - as fatbeeman suggested. But I think that I will fog again tomorrow which will put me on a two week schedule. As Glock said, it is so fast and easy that I would be happier fogging every two weeks. I did add 15 drops of spearmint oil to 16 oz. of FGMO.
Charlie

13 hives - zone 5


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## Michael Bush

*Re: Started fooging today.*

If you ever let the fog back up until it hits the flame on the fogger, it makes a very "exciting" explosion, blowing the lid off the hive etc....


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## JStinson

*Re: Started fooging today.*



> If you ever let the fog back up until it hits the flame on the fogger, it makes a very "exciting" explosion, blowing the lid off the hive etc....


I had a flame up once with a fogger. Got it too hot and it turned into a flame thrower. Thankfully no 'splosions.

I'm planning on FGMO tests here as well. Thanks for this thread.


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## GLOCK

*Re: Started fooging today.*

Well here we are almost mid JULY and I have very low mite counts I have been fogging weekly and all the hives I over wintered in to spring are doing well all strong. all but one I took the queens out and put in a nuc so all but one had a brood break most last month some this month but the one I didn't take the queen out of is 4 deeps high and crazy strong and no mites on the sticky board.
I am seeing less and less mites since I started fogging on 5/19 I have no DFWV or any virus at all things are going great I have 2 hives I am waiting to see eggs or a new queen but all hives are doing great I made 12 nucs and all have laying queens plus I have 4 queens in a queen castle. I know i'm happy with the fogging with FGMO .
I hade a drone frame that was filled with 2/3ds of capped drone brood and out of both sides I seen only 1 mite that's right just one and I checked bottom of cells and top sides no mites. Well see how things go going in to fall. So far fogging is working for me.
Not having mites is so nice make things a lot easier and the bees are a lot more manageable. 
Started with 10 and all are still growing and doing great.:thumbsup:


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## dingo983

I would like to see someone cut open some drone cell or, if possible, get some bees with mites on them, put them in a container or mason jar and fog it to see the affects on the mites. I will try this after I save my last hive. Just found my queen stumbling around bare plastic foundation.
Thanks again for keeping this thread going. I always got the impression people are quick to jump on the anti-fogging band wagon without giving it a valid chance. People like yourself who continue to test it may find more efficient ways of utilizing it or additions to the oil to make it more effective.


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## WWW

Glock,
When you did the brood break on your hives did you let the hives requeen or did you cut the queen cells?


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## GLOCK

WWW said:


> Glock,
> When you did the brood break on your hives did you let the hives requeen or did you cut the queen cells?


I let them re queen and out of 9 that I pulled the queens out of 7 have stated laying again with new queens and the other 2 i'm guessing still have virgin queens .
It takes around 35 days till I seen real eggs production fogging seems to let my bees get strong all my hives are doing well and i'm not getting many mites at all this last fogging I got less then 10 for 10 hives and that is just great.


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## JStinson

> fogging seems to let my bees get strong all my hives are doing well and i'm not getting many mites at all this last fogging I got less then 10 for 10 hives and that is just great.


From your original post:



> I did a mite count with sticky boards before and after the before was real low in all hives{no more then 5 in 48 hours}but it is only the start of the year here.


So, your total mite count went from 5 per hive to 1 per hive. This even though brood rearing increased. I'm impressed so far. Thanks for this thread!


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## oldforte

Anyone ever have the fogger coil clog up....impossible to clean. After fogging do you have to clean out the reservoir/coil?


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## GLOCK

I have not had mine clog I use my fogger once a week and put it in the shed when i'm done and only take the gas tank off works fine so far.


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## GLOCK

Just to let everyone know fogging with FGMO is working great for me all the hives I started with this past spring all have new queens and are laying great I have no mite virus and all hives are strong it sure is nice not having to worry about varroa mite or any pest for that matter .
I have a nuc yard that I have 14 nucs I have been making this year and I have not been fogging them and they have more mites the the big hives I have been fogging so I started fogging the nucs today.
I would never say some thing was working if it was not and again I am having great success with fogging with FGMO and for all you small timers that might be having a varroa mite problem give fogging a shoot it works for me. No more mites ya.


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## oldforte

thanks for the update...started fogging last week...have one colony with 150 drops in 36 hrs...if it works on this hive it has to be THE best method of control.


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## GLOCK

Boy I don't know that's a high drop I started fogging as soon as spring hit i'd fog it weekly for sure or maybe try every 3 days and see. what do ya have to lose? When you fog fog them well I give them around 20 sec per hive good luck.


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## Steves1967

When the mites are hit with the VMO do the drop off and die or can they get back up and crawl onto the comb and bees again?


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## Andrew Dewey

Hi Glock,

Thank you for posting your results with fogging.

A couple of questions - I'm not trying to start arguments - but I am trying to understand where foggers are coming from.

You mentioned earlier that you have some honey supers on. What (if any) are your qualms about fogging with supers on? Are you relying on the "Food Grade" part of the substance name to make it ok to apply with supers on? Do you advertise your honey as "Pure?"

In rereading my questions I think my core concern is over using a petroleum product in a bee hive and how food purity regulations might apply.

I sincerely thank you for posting your experiences with FGMO - I'd welcome any thoughts you might have as to the above questions and as to why past experiments with FGMO as a mite treatment have been inconsistent. Do you think regular fogging is more work than many hobbyists are prepared to do?


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## Eddie Honey

Following Andrews post with the same questions and does the wax comb get oily after repeated coatings with oil?


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## GLOCK

Andrew Dewey said:


> Do you think regular fogging is more work than many hobbyists are prepared to do?


I think some people {new hobbyist} don't really know how much work and time ya need to put in to your bee's. If ya care about your bees and work hard you will learn how to keep your bees alive.
I list my honey raw organic and I sell to my customer at my restaurant and I tell them I fog with FGMO and my hives never seen a miticide or and pesticide if code would ever come in and ***** I would just give it away i'm not in it for the money . Fogging has made my bee's stronger then they ever been and I see no mites in my hives and the one I didn't do a brood brake or any form of mite control other then fogging and it's just a monster hive . I have had bees for 4 years now and this year has been the funniest with no mite things go a lot smoother . Like I said I fog once a week and I do it well and I have no mites in my year plus hives and no sign of virus that makes it OK by me.


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## GLOCK

Eddie Honey said:


> Following Andrews post with the same questions and does the wax comb get oily after repeated coatings with oil?


No not at all things in the hives are healthy and happy .


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## Andrew Dewey

GLOCK said:


> I list my honey raw organic and I sell to my customer at my restaurant and I tell them I fog with FGMO and my hives never seen a miticide or and pesticide


Maybe I am getting argumentative here - but aren't you using FGMO as a miticide? What organic certifier allows FGMO as a miticide (or grooming enhancer, whatever?)

CNG says: 
"Mineral Oil, Food Grade (FGMO)
- Allowed for in hive trapping of small hive beetles and coating of extraction equipment ONLY; prohibited as a fumigant."

The USDA allowed/prohibited list for organic allows "Mineral oil—for topical use and as a lubricant."

I understand your bees are doing well (which is your primary concern) and that selling honey is not important to you.


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## Beregondo

Miticides chemically kill mites.

Things that mechanically kill mites, for example by crushing (bee jaws, beekeeper's hive tool) or asphyxiation (drowning in water, FGMO).

FGMO presents no chemical hazard to life -- in fact it is often used in direct contact with cultured living cells in the process of in vitro fertilization, and is a popular preservative used on wooden cutting boards, butcher blocks, and salad bowls.

So long as one is not fraudulently claiming compliance with a certification that prohibits its use, 
ethical objections to its use as a mite control are actually entirely semantic.

Certainly the use of fgmo would not prevent an honest man for promising that no _harmful _chemicals are used in producing raw honey in hives managed in that way.


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## Dale_3rd

I've been following the FGMO threads too, if it works I'll start it next year instead of fumic acid, apivar, etc. Most of those chemicals are nasty. 

I don't get the whole prohibited issue myself, I can go to the store and buy a pint of FGMO and guzzle it if I'm having "stuck plumbing" issues, but I can't fog a bee hive with it?? 

Anyway, if it's working and continues to work (being that varroa likely won't build up a tolerance to no breathing), I'll fog next year too.

Just my ¾¢.


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## Andrew Dewey

@beregondo - thank you for talking me down

Please understand that I recently had to confine bees to their hives in order to avoid an approved organic pesticide (spinosad) used per label. I'm not at all confident that people who use the term organic understand that the USDA has very specific do's and dont's as regards organic. I use nothing in or on my garden - does that make it organic? In terms of what the word used to mean, yes. OK, this year I'm growing potatoes under straw. I suppose that means I am "using" straw... I didn't check to see if the straw was organically produced and GMO free when I got it. And that _might_ (I'm not going to take the time to research it) disqualify me from using the organic label as currently defined by USDA.

But back to Glock. His bees are doing well, and that is a good thing. His usage reports will show if bees do well when fogged with mineral oil regularly in the short term. Maybe he'll continue the reports and we'll get long term data. I understand that FGMO is generally regarded as a safe substance. So was asbestos once upon a time. I got some nucs this year that were treated with Apivar (Amitraz). The bees looked great. Am I running out to buy Apivar to use on the hives I have that I treat? No.


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## Beregondo

It wasn't my intent to be offensive or confrontational.
I sincerely apologize, as it appears I was offensive to you.

I seriously doubt we're going to find any health hazards to using unscented food grade baby (aka mineral) oil to fog hives.

I'm also following his reports with great interest.

To date the only 'treatment' my hives have gotten is the brood break that occurs when I split nucs out of them.

My personal attitude toward USDA's attempts to co opt the term "organic" for the benefit of their primary clients, I should probably not comment on.
(Ok... shouldn't comment on any more than the last sentence did.)

Suffice it to say that in my mind government might regulate how a word is used in marketing but lacks the authority to change its meaning.


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## shinbone

I am following this thread with great interest.

While some may wonder whether fogging with FGMO is considered "organic" or "treatment free" or safe for human consumption, etc (all important questions if you use FGMO, BTW), I think the more fundamental questions is whether fogging with FGMO works to control mites in the first place. 

While I don't doubt that GLOCK's hives are doing great, if I recall correctly he is also doing other things to control mites plus working with just 10 hives and there is no control. I understand that 9 of the 10 hives had a brood break. Consequently, with all the variables that can happen with just a few hives, we don't really know whether it is the FMGO that is keeping the mites under control and allowing his hives to flourish.

Can anyone point to a beek who has used only FGMO to control mites and done so with enough hives so that we can have some confidence that it is indeed the FGMO that is keeping the mites in check? Or that the FGMO does have some activity against mites so that when used in combination with other mite control methods it has enough of a beneficial effect to justify the time and effort?

Just wondering out loud before I go buy a fogger and invest the time to start weekly fogging my dozen hives.


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## Beregondo

If I'm not mistaken Don K (Fatbeeman) has been successfully using fgmo + thymol for a few years.

I believe he as a couple hundred hives, or did until he had a visit by vandals this spring.


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## bbrowncods

Shinbone,

I can point to someone who uses FGMO as well as other things and is a commercial beekeeper. Google "fatbeeman". He is also on youtube and has some videos of FGMO fogging.

As far as justifying what works and what doesn't; well you are the only one that can make that decision for your situation. Certainly anyone elses success or failure can only be anecdotal.


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## shinbone

Beregondo - Thanks for the info.

I think it is safe to say that it is well known that thymol helps control mites. Personally, I used Apiguard last Fall and witnessed big mite drops and low mite counts the following Spring. 

Does fogging with FGMO add anything to the effects of using thymol on the hives, or is fogging with FGMO and thymol just another delivery method for thymol??


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## Beregondo

shinbone said:


> Beregondo - Thanks for the info.
> 
> I think it is safe to say that it is well known that thymol helps control mites. Personally, I used Apiguard last Fall and witnessed big mite drops and low mite counts the following Spring.
> 
> Does fogging with FGMO add anything to the effects of using thymol on the hives, or is fogging with FGMO and thymol just another delivery method for thymol??


I think he does a thymol treatment separately and apart from FGMO fogging.. I know he had a vid with a frame mounted thymol crystal holder mounted in it some time ago..

Don?
What do you do?


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## snl

shinbone said:


> Just wondering out loud before I go buy a fogger and invest the time to start weekly fogging my dozen hives.


I'll sell you mine (free cobwebs included)..........


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## shinbone

snl - lol . . . exactly what I am worried about.


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## GLOCK

Up date= So the only hive {1 out of ten} just fogged and did not do any other IPM I had put a drone frame In the hive the start of JULY and took it out today and did a mite count on that and the count was 10 per hundred cells now I don't know if that high or what but last year I had hives with 150 = aday mite drops on sticky boards and this hive only had 5 in two days? I can see mite pretty easily now days and don't see any on my bees or brood just in that drone frame. I'm not seeing any DWV or sick bees just healthy bees and I made 17 nucs this year and had a great honey crop and my bee's very nice this year so some thing is going right what do ya all think about the mite count?


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## cdevier

Glock - Thanks for the info - great job !

I started fogging my bees May 17 on a two week schedule. I am fogging 9 hives, two nucs started this spring, and a swarm captured at a neighbor's tree. I am using FGMO with 15 drops of spearmint oil.
July 12, I placed sticky boards with petroleum jelly under 5 hives for 24 hours. 
results were 0, 0 , 2, 3 and 50 mites. The hive with fifty mites was my largest hive last year, in a deep and 2 mediums.
I fogged this hive two days later and am now fogging it every week .

Over all, my bees look good -I have not taken off any honey yet -we have had enough rain to keep things blooming, so the bees are still working hard.
Charlie
13 hives zone5


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## shinbone

GLOCK - glad to hear that you are happy with how the fogging is working for you. Please continue to keep us posted on your progress.

Cdevier - glad to hear that another fogger has joined the thread. Again, please keep us posted on how it works for you.

I hope you both get great results, so that we have another weapon in the fight against varroa mites.


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## Mr.Beeman

To reply to the post asking is anyone using JUST FGMO as treatement... my answer is yes. My uncle who has been keeping bees for 30 years uses FGMO as his only form of treatment. His results are impressive to say the least. 
Keep in mind he used to have 75 hives, all treated with FGMO. He is now down to 6 only because he is 78 and it is all he needs. He used to sell honey and a lot of it when he had 75 hives.
The Government has an "interest" in other forms of chemical treatments, thus it's "definition" as approved organic treatments.


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## Robbin

cdevier said:


> Glock - Thanks for the info - great job !
> 
> I started fogging my bees May 17 on a two week schedule. I am fogging 9 hives, two nucs started this spring, and a swarm captured at a neighbor's tree. I am using FGMO with 15 drops of spearmint oil.
> July 12, I placed sticky boards with petroleum jelly under 5 hives for 24 hours.
> results were 0, 0 , 2, 3 and 50 mites. The hive with fifty mites was my largest hive last year, in a deep and 2 mediums.
> I fogged this hive two days later and am now fogging it every week .
> 
> Over all, my bees look good -I have not taken off any honey yet -we have had enough rain to keep things blooming, so the bees are still working hard.
> Charlie
> 13 hives zone5


Charlie, I assume the hive with 50 had never been fogged, or at least wasn't included in the current fog treatement cycle?
You counted on five hives, I'll be watching for your next treatment and count. I've never fogged, haven't bought the gear yet. But if you get good results on the 50 count hive as well, I'm going to guy a fogger. 
Glock, Keep us updated. 
Thanks,
Robbin


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## marshmasterpat

Glock - Keep us all updated through the end of the year. Interesting results and something to consider.

On the organic note, while hives might be "contained" or secluded for a period to certify as organic, I would find it hard to believe that a critter that can forage across a 3 mile radius can be really labeled as organic. While the hive you are using might be organic, they sure could be picking up lots of stuff that wouldn't be considered organic.

See it all the time around here. One farm is organic, but the water used to irrigate comes through a ditch through the middle of one of the heaviest users of herbicide and pesticides, just up canal about 300 feet. And that ag cat pilot is good, but don't think he can stop that spray of whatever from moving the 10 feet from edge of field to canal bank. Just based on what I see. 

I know it is all tested, but I see some things that make me want to think Hmmmm.

Glock - Keep us posted.


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## cdevier

Robbin, Yes, the hive with 50 mite count had been fogged 4 times -two to three weeks apart. Why it droped so many mites is a mystery to me. Maybe I did not use enough fog in it.

I gave it an extra midweek fogging , and now will fog each week. I will fog all hives today and do a mite check next week.
Charlie


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## GLOCK

AUG. 4 and all is going great in my beeyards . I was in all my hives today{11 hives and 15 DBL.nucs } and every one is strong and growing.
My mite loads are low I have had the inserts in all my SBBs since are night time temps. have been below 50 and I pulled them out and the most mites I seen on one insert was 7 and the inserts have been in since last sunday . I have no virus in any of my 3 beeyards no DWV crawlers just healthy happy bees.
This year has been a very nice year It looks like i'm going to go into winter with 26 hives . I have 3 nucs right now that have QC that should hatch any day and I have one hive with a virgin that has not started to lay yet but should by next week the rest are laying very well should have great winter bees. .Fogging with FGMO sure has worked with me all bees are healthy and happy even JULY and AUG. they have been nice just pleasurable.
Any one has any questions or would like any pics. feel free to PM me anytime . I know one thing when ya get the mites under control beekeeping get easier and more pleasurable. And ya get a pile of honey I have so much honey I started to give it a way .
I'm going to keep this thread going in to next year so all knows how my hive do going through fall and winter in to spring I will only bee fogging from this point on . One thing to remind every one most of my hive are on 4.9 cell but not all.
Hope every ones bees are doing well.:thumbsup:


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## Robbin

HI Glock,
What exactly are you putting in the fogger?


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## MikeTheBeekeeper

I'll be keeping up with this thread.


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## Robbin

Watched the Fat beeman video, looks like pure FGMO in the fogger, My fogger arrived today. I'll start fogging Friday morning....


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## Beelosopher

Mr.Beeman said:


> To reply to the post asking is anyone using JUST FGMO as treatement... my answer is yes. My uncle who has been keeping bees for 30 years uses FGMO as his only form of treatment. His results are impressive to say the least.


Did your uncle comment on the frequency of application and any other fine details?


Glock - truly appreciate the information. I know this isn't a study with controls and single variables, but I truly appreciate reading your results.

So basically you are fogging for 20 seconds per hive weekly with pure oil and honey supers are on. You started this practice in the spring and have carried on through since that time?

I like Michael Bush's philosophy about stabilizing the mite population and then regressing to ultimately get off the "juice". From his book I gleaned that he used FGMO for two years to do just that (he used oxalic too if memory serves). I know that next year I currently plan on a similar approach to phase out mites and any treatments if possible (though regression will likely take more time than that). Looks like FGMO might be a great way to do this.


----------



## GLOCK

Beelosopher said:


> Did your uncle comment on the frequency of application and any other fine details?
> 
> I like Michael Bush's philosophy about stabilizing the mite population and then regressing to ultimately get off the "juice". From his book I gleaned that he used FGMO for two years to do just that (he used oxalic too if memory serves). .


Next year I plan on not fogging as much do away with drone frames altogether {I only used them to look at my mite loads} I only used them 4 times on 4 different hives just to see the different mite loads so I really did not use them the most I could of I had some heavy mite loads going in to winter last year and lost 9 out of 19 but some where weak guessing they where weak from mite loads and my mistakes .
I am just trying to give the bees a fighting chance and this seems to be working .One day treatment free maybe but for now fogging seems to be doing well.
And just to ad I have one hive that was throw some drones out and I gathered up 8 and did a look see under 3 power reading glasses and there was no mites all looked healthy makes me happy.


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## GLOCK

Beelosopher said:


> Did your uncle comment on the frequency of application and any other fine details?
> 
> I like Michael Bush's philosophy about stabilizing the mite population and then regressing to ultimately get off the "juice". From his book I gleaned that he used FGMO for two years to do just that (he used oxalic too if memory serves). .


Next year I plan on not fogging as much do away with drone frames altogether {I only used them to look at my mite loads} I only used them 4 times on 4 different hives just to see the different mite loads so I really did not use them the most I could of I had some heavy mite loads going in to winter last year and lost 9 out of 19 but some where weak guessing they where weak from mite loads and my mistakes .
I am just trying to give the bees a fighting chance and this seems to be working .One day treatment free maybe but for now fogging seems to be doing well.
And just to ad I have one hive that was throw some drones out and I gathered up 8 and did a look see under 3 power reading glasses and there was no mites all looked healthy makes me happy.


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## Lburou

Glock, I'm pulling for your success against the mites! Losing that many hives has to be a shocker. 

I wonder how you feel about the different 'roll' or 'wash' or 'shake' tests. These tests (ether roll, powdered sugar shake, alcohol wash, even soapy water wash) are supposed to be the best tests (read 'most scientific') for estimating mite populations. When you declare success or failure on this venture, the more scientific your data, the more of us will join you in your conclusion, whatever it is. Please understand, I'm not picking a fight here, just a friendly question -I want you to succeed.


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## GLOCK

Well I could to a better test like a alcohol wash and I think I will I just have been procrastinating making the shaker and everything look so good and no problems so I have figured why bother . I will do it in the next couple days and I bet it going to be low . give me till sunday.:thumbsup:


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## Lburou

GLOCK said:


> .....give me till sunday.:thumbsup:


I'm on the edge of my seat with anticipation. 

Thanks for not taking offense Glock! :twothumbsup:


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## GLOCK

If your fogging make sure ya fog them well


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## bbrowncods

Dang...somebody call the fire department!


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## JRGN

Glock, is there any picturlar time of day in which you have found to be the best to fog.


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## GLOCK

JRGN said:


> Glock, is there any picturlar time of day in which you have found to be the best to fog.


I like to do it in the evening when all the bees are in the hive.
I'M going to do a alcohol shake tomorrow and will let every one know how that goes .
PEACE.


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## GLOCK

Lburou said:


> I'm on the edge of my seat with anticipation.
> 
> Thanks for not taking offense Glock! :twothumbsup:


ok here is the deal I made a shaker but used pint jars and used about 1 cup and 2/3ds of bees


I got the bees of this frame{pic took after I shook the bees off}.Maybe I should of got them off open brood.

I got this many and I shook it many times and hard. Waited 1 hour and did it again.

This has been my strongest hive this year no brood break just fogging it had one drone frame to do a count was 10 out of a 100.

And a shoot of the ground in front of the hive .

So what do ya all think is fogging working I say yes .


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## Bee Geek

When you folks extract, how does that Mineral Oil mix with the honey? Does it get absorbed into the combs and cappings? Or does it stay separated and get slung with the honey? Just wondering...


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## GLOCK

Bee Geek said:


> When you folks extract, how does that Mineral Oil mix with the honey? Does it get absorbed into the combs and cappings? Or does it stay separated and get slung with the honey? Just wondering...


My honey does not have any FGMO in it at all.


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## Andrew Dewey

Glock - again thank you for posting your experiences with fogging. The bees do indeed look good. However, your alcohol wash to me shows that treatment for Varroa is needed. Perhaps not as heavy a treatment as if you had not been fogging...


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## MikeTheBeekeeper

Glock, do you fog them in their entrance (or from the top with the cover off)? How long (10-15 seconds)?


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## JStinson

> However, your alcohol wash to me shows that treatment for Varroa is needed.


Andrew, I definitely bow to your experience, but Glock used a cup and 2/3 of bees. 3.5 times the standard 1/2 cup sample. This would give him a ~750 bee sample. I count 12, maybe 13 mites. Or, 4-5 mites per 300 bees, well below the 10-12 threshold mite threshold that brushy mtn recommends for fall treatment. 



> ok here is the deal I made a shaker but used pint jars and used about 1 cup and 2/3ds of bees


I apologize if I'm way off here.


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## Beesure!

Thanks GLOCK this is great information we all can use, you have given me the confidence to give it a try.


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## GLOCK

JStinson said:


> Andrew, I definitely bow to your experience, but Glock used a cup and 2/3 of bees. 3.5 times the standard 1/2 cup sample. This would give him a ~750 bee sample. I count 12, maybe 13 mites. Or, 4-5 mites per 300 bees, well below the 10-12 threshold mite threshold that brushy mtn recommends for fall treatment.
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize if I'm way off here.


that's what I thought I think i'm safe but if i'm not let me know.


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## Andrew Dewey

I stand corrected on the larger sample - I missed it - was wrong on the math - my apologies to Glock.

However, there is a problem when using larger sample sizes in that the mites may not all wash out of the sample. I haven't (yet) studied Glock's shaker, but I'm going into it thinking a smaller sample size would yield more accurate results.


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## GLOCK

Ya I messed up when I was in the bee yard I could not remember how many bees I should use so I put 3 scoops with a cup in the jar guessing to many. i'll do another shake on tues . or wed.
Sorry guys but I did shake the crap out of them and then I let it set for a hour and shook it again and it was the same .
So next time bigger jars{qt} and not as many bee's .
But again no virus and all hives are healthy.
Hopping for the best winter is coming and soon the golden rod will be in bloom.


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## Lburou

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-11-mite-monitoring-methodsRandy Oliver cited a study that developed lots of math to show the predictive validity of using 300 bees in the wash. Personally, I'd shoot for 300 bees and the math is made easy if you do the same. There were specific recommendations as to just where to get the sample as well (looking to sample nurse bees, not foragers, bees in brood chamber have more mites).


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## AR Beekeeper

Does prolonged breathing the fog have any effect on the beekeepers lungs?


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## cdevier

AR - no noticeable effect on me or the bees , during fogging or afterwards. I do not think that there will be any long term effects either. The FGMO is a highly purified oil - probably not nearly as bad for you as cooking an iron skillet of bacon on a hot stove.
Charlie


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## JStinson

> probably not nearly as bad for you as cooking an iron skillet of bacon on a hot stove.


But much less delicious.


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## shinbone

GLOCK,

First of all, that is one impressive looking frame of capped brood. I wish I could find frames like that in my hives.

It is my recolleciton that you are using various varroa control methods on your hives. Could you summarize what methods, if any, beside FMGO fogging that was used on the hive you tested for varroa?


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## GLOCK

shinbone said:


> GLOCK,
> 
> First of all, that is one impressive looking frame of capped brood. I wish I could find frames like that in my hives.
> 
> It is my recolleciton that you are using various varroa control methods on your hives. Could you summarize what methods, if any, beside FMGO fogging that was used on the hive you tested for varroa?


Yes I used one drone frame {let them fill it out 1 time } to do a mite count and SBB now this hive has some 4.9 cell and some 5.1 I have most of my hives on 4.9 but that one is still mixed .
Next year if all go's well with fogging i'm going to try bigger cell on one hive and see if there is a difference .



Lburou 

Have you read this thread?
Every thing you mentioned I know but thank you.


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## shinbone

Kewl. Thanks!


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## Rusty Hills Farm

cdevier said:


> AR - no noticeable effect on me or the bees , during fogging or afterwards. I do not think that there will be any long term effects either. The FGMO is a highly purified oil - probably not nearly as bad for you as cooking an iron skillet of bacon on a hot stove.
> Charlie


The possible side effects are the only reason I have not tried this. Again on Randy Oliver's site, he mentions a few very scary ones. Since my partner has COPD, I am nervous to try it. (I really DON'T want an oxygen mask of my very own!) Does anyone know of any studies on long-term effects on the human lungs? If I could clear up this one worry, I'd be fogging by next season!

Rusty


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## GLOCK

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> The possible side effects are the only reason I have not tried this. Again on Randy Oliver's site, he mentions a few very scary ones. Since my partner has COPD, I am nervous to try it. (I really DON'T want an oxygen mask of my very own!) Does anyone know of any studies on long-term effects on the human lungs? If I could clear up this one worry, I'd be fogging by next season!
> 
> Rusty


No side effects so far .
With COPD guess your partner should worry .
With healthy lungs I don't worry.
The only thing with fogging I found wrong is my fogger already broke so time for a new one.:s


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## bbrowncods

Not sure of the long term effects of breathing FGMO. I would think that short term exposure would do little damage. If I was concerned I would maintain an upwind orientation or get a mask with filter.


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## Michael Bush

If you lookup damage to lungs from oil vapors you'll find they are quite dangerous. You definitely do not want to breath them. I find standing upwind is pretty effective. You'll be able to see the direction from the smoke from the fogger.


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## Bill Davis

Here's a link to a newer study. I'm not great when it comes to reading these reports and picking them apart but they fogged every single week and did not eliminate the mites. If you guys at home are going every 2-3 weeks I think you are waisting your time. 
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE08-641&y=2011&t=1


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## GLOCK

Bill Davis said:


> Here's a link to a newer study. I'm not great when it comes to reading these reports and picking them apart but they fogged every single week and did not eliminate the mites. If you guys at home are going every 2-3 weeks I think you are waisting your time.
> http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE08-641&y=2011&t=1


Did ya read this tread?

I am fogging weekly with straight FGMO and it's about low mite counts not mite elimination I don't think that's possible and if it is it's not for long.
It seems to be working for me so think what you like but at least read the thread 
I will do my own study.
Heres the study he's talking about.
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/assocfiles/930075FNE08.641KeyserFinalReport.pdf
Old news.


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## Bill Davis

GLOCK said:


> Did ya read this tread?
> 
> I am fogging weekly with straight FGMO and it's about low mite counts not mite elimination I don't think that's possible and if it is it's not for long.
> It seems to be working for me so think what you like but at least read the thread
> I will do my own study.
> Heres the study he's talking about.
> http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/assocfiles/930075FNE08.641KeyserFinalReport.pdf
> Old news.


I've read the thread since you started it and I have been fogging 2 yrs straight, but I also vaporize with Oa in the fall. 15 yrs ago glock I was putting mineral oil on every frame of my brood chambers with a medicine dropper. I think mineral helps when done regularly, but I think I read a post by you saying next yr you won't fog as much and other people were talking about fogging every 2-3 weeks. The people who use it once in a while will be the ones who come back on next year and tell you to sell your fogger.


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## GLOCK

That's cool BILL I just wondered see I have most of my hive on 4.9 cell now and was going to take like 5 hives {I have 3 bee yards} and not fog and see if the small cell alone can control the mite . M. BUSH swears by sm cell . I am just trying to make healthy bees and this has been my best year by far and I am sure fogging is helping.
Happy beeing.


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## shinbone

The FMGO study by Heather Kyser cited in Post #86 concludes: "_Experimental hives that were fogged had an overall lower mite count, produced more honey, over wintered better, and were generally more robust and stronger than control colonies that were stressed by a higher mite infestation._"

However, the data (which is presented in a very confusing manner, IMHO) appear to show little if any difference in mite counts between the control hives and the weekly fogged hives for the 1st year, a slight difference the 2nd year, and a roughly 30%-60% (depending on which month you look at) end-of-season difference the 3rd year (if I am reading the data correctly). In other words, it took 3 years of weekly fogging to achieve some improvement in mite counts, so there is indeed some long term benefit to fogging, but it requires weekly applications and a few years to see those benefits, according to the author. Good news that FMGO has a favorable affect, but it takes a lot of time and effort to see that benefit, and, at least at the 3-year mark, the reduction in mites isn't gonna knock your socks off. At least in this one study.

I should add that I have no doubt that those who fog with FMGO and say they achieve good results, do indeed achieve good results. Ms. Kyser's study is just one person's results in one area with one person's bees.


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## Robbin

I don’t think you can take away from the study that there is a long term effect. I Don’t believe that if fogging works, that the effect would be cumulative. IE, a reduction this year would result in a reduction next year. They didn’t fog over the winter so you are basically starting from scratch every year. Also, the heavier the infestation, the larger the effect. That just stands to reason. All the bees in a hive don’t have mites, nor do all the bees in a hive get oil on them during each treatment. So the higher the infestation rate, the greater number of bees with mites getting oiled, the greater the effect. Which could be why 08, with it’s very low numbers showed no improvement.

Also, the study was in New York. With much longer periods that you can’t fog. I live in Florida. Probably have much higher infestation rates, and a much longer warm season in which I can fog.

Fogging doesn’t hurt (as long as you don’t blow up a hive like Mr. Bush did), it’s not expensive and its fast/easy…..
I don’t count mites. I just fog them… So I can’t tell you if it really works or not, but I’ve read about enough other people fogging and counting to believe that it works. And you don’t have to count mites to know you’ve got them.


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## shinbone

Robbin - I understand your reasoning why you would see a bigger affect from fogging with a larger mite infestation. 

Could you also explain your statement: "_I Don’t believe that if fogging works, that the effect would be cumulative. IE, a reduction this year would result in a reduction next year. They didn’t fog over the winter so you are basically starting from scratch every year._" 

It seems to me that if a hive goes into winter with fewer mites, then it would emerge in spring with fewer mites than otherwise even without a winter treatment, and if a moderately effective mite treatment protocol was then followed, the hive would then also have fewer mites at the end of the season. This would only hold true for a moderately effective treatment protocol: An ineffective protocol would not be cumulative because it would have no impact on mites; and a highly effective treatment protocol would not be cumulative because it would reduce the mite population to near zero with each treatment. (Just me thinking out loud.)


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## GLOCK

Well last year at this time I had hives crumbling to PMS this is a bee at the start of this year

The hive I took this bee pic from was weak in the spring and took all spring and part of summer to get up and running but has been requeened 
and is strong making bees for winter.
And I had bees that looked like that all over the ground last year not a one this year just healthy bees.
I have not seen a bee like this since may all hives are doing well and are not showing any PMS at all so I am sure fogging is helping giving my bees a chance to get strong and maybe one day be able to deal with varroa on there own till then I will help 
My goal is to have bees that can live with the varroa and not try to eliminate the mite. I want varroa resistance not elimination. I had read the study last year and and every thing I could on fogging and read every thing Dr. Rodriguez’s posted on BS plus his studies that one of the reasons I am giving fogging a try plus the fat beeman and ever person that fogs and post on BS . 
I will see when spring comes but I bet I have some nice hive in the spring. Fogging is helping for sure.


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## Robbin

shinbone said:


> Robbin - I understand your reasoning why you would see a bigger affect from fogging with a larger mite infestation.
> 
> Could you also explain your statement: "_I Don’t believe that if fogging works, that the effect would be cumulative. IE, a reduction this year would result in a reduction next year. They didn’t fog over the winter so you are basically starting from scratch every year._"
> 
> It seems to me that if a hive goes into winter with fewer mites, then it would emerge in spring with fewer mites than otherwise even without a winter treatment, and if a moderately effective mite treatment protocol was then followed, the hive would then also have fewer mites at the end of the season. This would only hold true for a moderately effective treatment protocol: An ineffective protocol would not be cumulative because it would have no impact on mites; and a highly effective treatment protocol would not be cumulative because it would reduce the mite population to near zero with each treatment. (Just me thinking out loud.)


Hi shinbone, I don't think mite populations are static enough to see moderate gains from last year carried into this year and forward. Otherwise we could either eradicate mites completely or drive them down to the lowest level that fogging could keep them at. You get re-infestation from mites outside your hives. So I don’t think the mite count will continue to decline over time. You are probably correct in that it would have been worse, but it would be difficult to prove if the mite count actually increases as it did in 2010 in that study. What you could prove was that mite counts were lower in the fogged hives, but the actually mite count was not lower year over year. So the study didn’t show a cumulative decrease. I think the mite population would have to be fairly static to see cumulative reductions in mite counts.


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## Santa Caras

Glock....very intresting thread. gives me something to think about on treatment. Question...have you seen a reduction in other pests (SBH-wax moths) in your hives as well???


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## GLOCK

Santa Caras said:


> Glock....very intresting thread. gives me something to think about on treatment. Question...have you seen a reduction in other pests (SBH-wax moths) in your hives as well???


I have only one pest I have as far as I know is varroa.


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## GLOCK

Well did alcohol washes on 6 of my hives and 4 had high mite counts . I used a half a cup of bees and it went as followed.
Hive 1 the first hive I did a brood break this year it requeened and been laying great lots of eggs and brood doing well 9 mite count.
Hive 2 second hive did a brood break to it this past spring mite count 6
Hive 3 same as hive 2 mite count 5
Hive 4 supersedure in spring took queen out be for they killed her it requeend and layed for 2 weeks and supersedure again so it had 2 brood breaks and has low mite counts 4 total
Hive 5 has lots of bees in it had the highest count 13 but its healthy and and lots of brood and eggs.
And I did a single nuc 2 mite count.
The reason I did alcohol washes was with in a week I went from around 5 mites on the sticky boards in a 24 hour drop now there at any where from 10 to 20 happened real fast .
And all my darn nucs are robbed out but have queens and are laying funny how fast things change in the bee yardst: .
What do you all think I should do i'm thinking oxalic acid.
Like i said all hives are healthy and no virus no DWV I just don't understand.
Maybe fogging every 5 days maybe or fogging with essential oil or just let them go and see what happens.
Thank you.
I have to make a move soon I am guessing :ws:


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## cdevier

Glock,
Here are my 24 hour results of 6 hives; Total mites on a sticky board

Hive Jul 25 Aug 9
1 ---- 3 ---- 1 small hive
3 ---- 0 ---- 6 medium hive
6 ---- 0 ---- 5 medium hive
8 ---- 5 ---- 15 medium hive
15 --- 50 ---- 2 small hive
18 --- 0 ---- 17 big hive

I installed my sticky board 48 hours after I fogged ; therefore my counts may be lower than yours. I used a piece of waxed freezer paper 8 1/2 inches by 11 inches with petroleum jelly on it.
I am using 16 oz. FGMO with 15 drops of spearmint oil.

I cannot explain why the one high count of 50 mites. This hive was my largest last summer and crashed this summer.
Charlie
13 hives zone 5


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## Beregondo

Glock,
My yards are about 60 miles north of you.
We didn't get a dearth this year, just a severs slowdown of nectar flow, with goldenrod just starting to bloom this last week.

Btw nectar slowdown and the shortage of flying days due to thunderstorms and rain, I've noticed a lot fewer drone cells in the brood nest.

If you've seen similar, perhaps the spike in mite drop has to due with phoretic mites finding a shortage of drone cells and a shortage of host cells resulting in a greater proportion of mites being out of cells searching for host cells and subject to out-of-cell mortality hazards (bee bites, for example).

I think it not unlikely that what you are seeing could be the result of bees going after mites and a shortage of larger host cells, particularly if you have a high proportion of sealed brood in the brood nest (I've noticed more sealed brood in proportion to open here last inspection as well as the reduction in drone brood).

In other words, what you are seeing perhaps isn't an increase in mite population, but an increase in mite deaths b/c of bees doing what they have been doing combined with more mites seeking new cells as drone brood population dropped, if you have experienced such a drop there, as I have here.


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## Stephenpbird

Bad news about the mites, the silver lining in that is you know about it in time to do something. Why not try the addition of Thymol in the FGMO for fogging and use the cords.

Good luck with the mites and please keep this thread going.opcorn:

Stephen


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## Robbin

Cdiever,
Do you fog all your hives, or just 6. Would be interesting to see half the hives fogged, and the other half not fogged as a control and drop counts for all.


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## GLOCK

Well everyone things are changing with my mite counts and 20 and over on the sticky board in 24 hours all happen real fast about a week any way I ordered a oxalic acid vaporizer and going to do all my year plus hives I don't want to lose my hives and I am not waiting for PMS or DWV show up I know how fast the VARROA can take over so I don't think I will be fogging my year old hives any more this year the next 3 weeks is going to be oxalic acid treatment and get them ready for winter.
I'm still going to fog my nucs and maybe next year fog them with essential oils of some kind but for this year no more fogging the big hives .
I'll post the mite count when I do a oxalic acid treatment .
Thanks everyone and I must say all my bee are healthy and much better then last year and i'm sure fogging helped but I don't think it will work alone got to remember i'm am on small cell for most my hives also and all but one had a brood break .
Happy beeing.


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## Robbin

My 2 strongest hives are going down hill fast, I had only fogged once, started too late. I'm with you Glock, not going to wait until they collapse to start treating them....


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## WWW

I look forward to the results of your mite count.


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## cdevier

Robbin,
I have 12 hives in my back yard and fog them all. My first fogging was May 17; and then fogged every two weeks. However, when I saw that one hive with a 50 mite count /24 hours, I started fogging every week.
I should have monitored every hive - just too lazy.
I do not know why the spearmint oil is added to the FGMO. I suppose that it adds a smell so that the bees will groom more. 
Charlie

12 hives zone 5


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## Robbin

I’ve got freeman beetle traps under 5 out of 6 hives and I’ve really eliminated my SHB threat with them. Beetles get chased down there and drown, any larva that try to climb out to reach the ground, drown. I was hoping for some effect on the mites. Doesn’t look like it, They obviously don’t crawl back up and re-infect much. All my bearding had stopped on my two largest hives. No sign of swarms. So I was really getting concerned about mites. 
I changed my oil last week and I used NEW, unused oil so it was nice and clear, And I fogged for the first time. I went out and fogged yesterday (2nd time) and pulled the oil trays back on the two largest hives. After a week, I found 1 SHB in each. Dozens of roaches in each, and tons of mites. I’ve never done a mite count as I keep oil trays on all the time. But I was really surprised. No doubt my numbers are dwindling due to heavy mite infestation. I’m seriously considering using check mite, I don’t want to lose either of my big strong hives. No way to tell if the large mite drop was caused by the fogging, thou I’m sure it had some effect. I may pull my trays and do some drop counts. I just can’t kill bees to count mites. I’ll most likely break down and use check mite before something really bad happens. When you’ve only got 6 hives, it doesn’t take much to put you out of business….
Robbin


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## GLOCK

Ok everyone it like this I did oxalic acid vaporizer treatment on my year old hives that have been fogged every week since may and the mite drop on the hive I gave a brood break first this past spring has dropped around 600 mites since WED. night this is SAT morning .
Then the hive I had not given a brood break dropped the next highest at around 300 . The hives that where queenless the longest seem to have the lower mite counts but all are dropping more mites then I was seeing with fogging . Plus the mite that are dropping now look darker .
I don't think fogging and brood breaks alone are enough to keep your mites in check but oxalic acid vaporizing may be just what will work for VARROA It pretty easy to do and there are lots of dead mites on the sticky boards . After a 3 week treatment I will do alcohol washes on all my hives and post the findings. Peace.


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## Bigtwin

Glock, the hives you are tre_ating with OA, are they broodless? Can vaporized OA be used at anytime?_


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## WWW

Glock, that is an impressive mite drop, I vaporized my hives in September of last year and during a quick inspection last weekend I pulled more than a dozen drone brood and found only 1 mite. All my best to you with your hives.


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## GLOCK

WWW said:


> Glock, that is an impressive mite drop, I vaporized my hives in September of last year and during a quick inspection last weekend I pulled more than a dozen drone brood and found only 1 mite. All my best to you with your hives.


Low mite counts are nice but my mite counts looked low I was fogging I figured everything was good and it is all my bees are doing great but they have some mites more then I should so if a oxalic acid vapourizer keeps them healthy i'm go to make it part of my pest management but for fogging with just FGMO does not keep the mite where they need to be to make me happy I don't like the idea of watching hives die slowly to PMS I seen it last year and this year no signs of it any where in my bee yards and I want to keep it that way.



And I have brood in all my hives right now and all are healthy.


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## shinbone

GLOCK - thanks for reporting your results on the mite drops with the OA vaporizing. I gotta say, I was skeptical about the efficacy of fogging, but was hoping your experiment would prove otherwise. However, a 600 mite drop on a hive that has been FGMO fogged weekly For 3 or 4 months doesn't sound to me that all that fogging has done much good. 

Seems to me that with how effective the OA treatment is, the fogging, at best, is just background noise. Do you still feel that the fogging is helping enough with the mites to be worth continuing?


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## WWW

Glock, by what you have described it would appear that the FGMO fogging kept your hives healthy enough to just barely avoid pms, dwv, and other related symptoms but at the same time the bees may not have had the ability to make it through the winter ok. Perhaps this has always been what was behind the question of whether FGMO really works. Your summer of fogging has been an eye opener.


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## David LaFerney

Thanks for sharing all of this especially when the results were not what you hoped for. I really wonder now what would he happened if as mentioned ( by Reader I think) you could have used half of your hives as a control. I completely understand why you didn't though. We all do what we judge to be best, and very few people are able to sacrifice half there hives to get better science out of our experiments. We do whatever we do because we hope it will work on all of them. 

Thanks again for the contribution to the community and good luck.


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## Mike Gillmore

Glock,

Thanks for taking the time to report your findings with fogging. Some do just fine with fogging, while others can have catastrophic results. I guess if someone is going to try it, they need to be vigilant and have a Plan B ready to go in the event it does not work for them. 

For OA Vapor use in our region, three treatments one week apart in August, then one more treatment on a warm day between Thanksgiving and Christmas when they are broodless, should do the trick.


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## Bee Geek

Glock, regardless of the outcome, ThankYou for your time and effort towards your Bee's, but more so, Thank You for your time and energy sharing your outcome in these posts. I realize how much you have shared with all of us who have read your Threads and it is noted that you are devoted and systematic and you shared that with us, helping us learn through you!
Best Regards to a you and your Girls!


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## cg3

Yeah, thanks, I appreciate these first-hand accounts.


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## GLOCK

Just to let everyone know all the hives I have been treating with oxalic acid vaporizing are dropping mites like rain . I can not beleave how many mite my bees had they all seemed healthy but man a lot of mite have dropped off all my hives.
Two have had over a 1000 mites drop since this past WED.  .
I had a 3 deep nuc that I put in a DBL deep less then a month ago and I treat it and even that one is dropping mite like over 50 a day {I did that one on SAT}. I might have to treat my nucs.
I am a isolated beekeeper there are no other beekeepers for miles so I wonder did the mite population just grow in my beeyards? Where do the mites come from? Any way to all the beekeepers thinking about fogging as your only weapon against VARROA better rethink it . Reason I did this fogging thread was so that all that follow BS know the truth about fogging It dose not work alone for sure I kinda wonder if it worked at all but my bees where acting healthy the whole time but they where VARROA infested and I go by experience and facts.
Well I am getting ready for winter with oxalic acid vaporizing and making sure all have honey and happy healthy bees.
Thanks and all I have wrote is facts straight from my bee yards fogging did not fix my VARROA problem but oxalic acid vaporizing kicking but .
peace.


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## shinbone

GLOCK- Thanks again for reporting your experience with fogging with FMGO. It is valuable information to the beekeeping community.

Based on your reports, I am ordering an OA vaporizer.


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## Robbin

Glock, do you give up fogging or not? Studies I read showed as much as 30% fewer mites. At half that, is it worth fogging? It doesn't cost a lot, and it's pretty easy. But if you are going to be driven to treatment anyway, is it worth it? Or is it worth it between treatments to keep mites down?

Thanks...


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## cg3

Robbin said:


> It doesn't cost a lot, and it's pretty easy.


At the price I'm paying for Oxalic acid, it's $.03/dose and about 5min. per colony. X3 treatments. Pretty cheap. Pretty easy.


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## v45

Glock
Thanks for posting your results. How many boxes do you have on when you are doing the OA Vapor? I am trying with Three boxes on but I never seen a any gas vapor fumes when I lifted the lid

Are you seeing a lot of vapor when you finish?


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## Stephenpbird

You have my thanks too, Glock. :thumbsup:
I have been fogging with Thymol mixed in the FGMO for three weeks now. I have not done any checks on mite levels since but based on your posts, I bought a vaporizer and Oxalic powder last night on e-bay. 
Good luck with your bees and I hope this winter is kind to you.

Stephen


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## GLOCK

Just to let everyone know I have done 2 treatments with oxalic acid vaporizing and i'm still dropping varroa like rain .
3 hives well over 1000 in 10 days so if your thinking about fogging with just FGMO you will have mite bombs by SEPT.
Now I had 3 hives that I took the queens out of in end of july and there varroa drops have been real low but it took over a mounth to get these hive queen right again so right now there just starting to have a lot of brood I even had to give a queen to one seemed like they just couldn't make there own . No more fogging for me oxalic acid vaporizing I think it's working great more dead VARROA on my sticky boards then I ever seen.
GOOD LUCK to all of you .
:w


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## DPBsbees

Glock, how are the fumes when you vaporize? A commercial beekeeper at EAS joked that he's sell me two vaporizers. When I asked him more, he said the fumes will knock you over. I think Randy Oliver said they were pretty nasty in his write-up about oxalic acid. Thanks


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## snl

GLOCK said:


> Just to let everyone know I have done 2 treatments with oxalic acid vaporizing and i'm still dropping varroa like rain. 3 hives well over 1000 in 10 days so if your thinking about fogging with just FGMO you will have mite bombs by SEPT.
> No more fogging for me oxalic acid vaporizing. I think it's working great more dead VARROA on my sticky boards then I ever seen.GOOD LUCK to all of you. :w


Great testimony to buy an Oxalic Acid Vaporizer! See my add in the "For Sale" forum!


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## WWW

DPB, 
Glock will no doubt be happy to answer your inquiry but if I may step in for a moment to help you I can tell you that yes OA will knock the breath right out of you and very quickly at that. There are ways to avoid breathing the vapors, you can use a cartridge mask with an approved NIOSH filter cartridge rated for organic acids which I have but do not use. The method that I use is to place the vaporizer into the hive then seal the entrance which will keep a majority of the vapor in the hive, the vaporizer has a 15 foot electric cord on it so I stand 15 feet away and upwind from the hives as well. I have been vaporizing my hives for 3 years and have never had any problems with breathing the vapors but I must add do be careful these vapors will leave you coughing for a few seconds, if you feel safer with a mask then by all means use it.


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## snl

DPBsbees said:


> Glock, how are the fumes when you vaporize? A commercial beekeeper at EAS joked that he's sell me two vaporizers. When I asked him more, he said the fumes will knock you over.


Duh, you gotta take caution and not breath the stuff....


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## oldforte

WWW...you have 3 years experience with OAV...evidently it has been successful...tell us how and how often...how many colonies...any bad results ? how do you measure OA per box.....only in fall season? what brand of vaporizer? did you do a trial outside the hive to determine how long the vapor lasts? car battery or mower?


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## WWW

oldforte,
Last year I expanded to 6 colonies, all made it through last winter just fine, I apply OA vapor with a Heilyser JB200 vaporizer during the month of October, I apply once a week for three weeks however this year I will start doing four weekly applications for no other reason than I just want to be thorough. I use 1 gram of OA per deep hive body and have never had a bad result. This year I am going into winter with 8 hives and I will be treating them all next month. By the way, since I got back into beekeeping 5 years ago I have not lost a single hive, they have been coming through the winters healthy and vibrant.

Yes I did a number of trials outside the hives when I first set up my DC power source. I opened up a battery charger and by-passed the IC board on the inside so that the transformer put the DC voltage through the amp selector switch and then to the battery cables, this had to be done to make the charger work right for energizing my vaporizer. With the charger set on 2 amps it takes 2 1/2 minuets for the OA to sublimate, and this time is a constant. I like the charger because the time that it takes for the OA to vaporize is always the same, but the timing will vary when using a battery so an outside burn is always a necessity.

I hope this helps, if you have any more questions just let me know.


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## oldforte

Thanks Wcubed for the info....I will order the Heilyser and start treatments this fall...your Oct. is probably equal to my Nov. ....by that time I should have only 3/4 mediums on.... the constant charging system you came up with is awesome ...half my colonies are not AC accessible ...I would hope to rig a battery for constant output if possible...will need help on that one. Yes, thank for the help, I may have question later


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## GLOCK

WWW said:


> oldforte,
> Last year I expanded to 6 colonies, all made it through last winter just fine, I apply OA vapor with a Heilyser JB200 vaporizer during the month of October, I apply once a week for three weeks however this year I will start doing four weekly applications for no other reason than I just want to be thorough. I use 1 gram of OA per deep hive body and have never had a bad result. This year I am going into winter with 8 hives and I will be treating them all next month. By the way, since I got back into beekeeping 5 years ago I have not lost a single hive, they have been coming through the winters healthy and vibrant.


That's great I have 13 hives {dbl deeps} and 13 {dbl} nucs and all are healthy and doing well oxalic acid vaporizing is working for sure. When I vaporizing I put the oxalic acid in the vaporizer hook it up to the battery and wait for it to start to fume and once it starts I put it in the hive put the towel over the front and walk away and wait one min. and then I go back and disconnect the vaporizer from the battery and walk away for like 3 min then I take the towel away and go to the next one I don't really inhale any fumes . I say just start and you will get it very easy. I'm doing the same as you 1 gram per deep.
I did one of my nucs 1 gram for a dbl nuc and let it hooked up to the battery for 40 sec. and did the rest just like a big hive . I'm going to check the nuc tomorrow and make sure the queen had no problem with it so far i'm happy.


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## WWW

For the past three years I have always vaporized in September to give the bees time to raise two healthy cycles of brood before cold weather set in, however this year I switched to October, the reason I have done this is that I have devised a method of management where I can collect the goldenrod flow through September and did not want to vaporize while my supers were still on. 

I have noted that with the use of OA vapor the previous year Varroa ia not a big problem to the hive the next fall and so two healthy brood cycles is not a real necessity. Applying OA in October will allow me to harvest the Goldenrod and still have time to vaporize the hives.

If this year is the first year of using OA and your hives have a large Varroa count then an early intervention starting in late August to early September is advisable to clean up the hives and give them time to raise some healthy brood before winter.


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## Nige.Coll

if you leave a board under for 7 days and count the dropped varroa there is a calculator on bee base site that will tell you how many of the little buggers are in the hive and if you need to treat .


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## cg3

WWW said:


> the reason I have done this is that I have devised a method of management where I can collect the goldenrod flow through September and did not want to vaporize while my supers were still on.


Just finished 3rd round, supers going back on.


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## oldforte

OK.. how long after vaporizing can you put the supers back on.... after the vapors disperse...few hours?


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## cg3

They say you can leave supers on but I'm just being cautious. There's not been much coming in here, anyway.


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## Robbin

I did a mite drop count of my strongest hive this weekend. Over 150 in 24 hours. Ordered a vaporizer today. I think I will continue to fog, and restrict my Vaporizer use to 4 weekly treatments early spring and fall next year, but I will treat them all ASAP this year. I don't want them to collapse at this point.. I'll pick two similar hives, side by side and do monthly mite drop counts. One fogged weekly, one not, and see if there is a measurable differnce in the fogged hives mite count. All will get the spring and fall OA treatment but one will not be fogged while all the others will. I'll do mite counts on the two similar hives. If fogging is helping, I'll continue, if it is not, I'll stop fogging and go with a mid summer OA treatment as well.


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## RonnieS

So---what is the downside to OAV ?


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## Robbin

RonnieS said:


> So---what is the downside to OAV ?


It's dangerous. You can drown in FGMO but that's about it... You can drink it, rub it on yourself, etc... OA fumes are dangerous, you have to be careful. OA crystals or powder are dangerous. If you behave yourself and pay attention, I think the benefits far outweight the risk, but make no mistake, there is some risk. OA is nasty stuff.

I intend to light my smoker to keep track of the wind, and be careful.


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## GLOCK

Mite drop on the 2nd treatment with oxalic acid vaporizing.



that's over night glad I went this way that's only 3 out of 13 I am treating and all but one have a lot o mites dropping :thumbsup:


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## DPBsbees

"Duh, you gotta take caution and not breath the stuff...."

That's a great recommendation from someone who must be selling the stuff. Always trust those with something financial to gain. Want to buy a house in Detroit? How about some stock in Tokyo Electric? I use MAQ strips quite frequently, so I know how to deal with the fumes products to treat mites can cause, but when a couple of commercial guys went the drip, or quit, root I felt I had to ask. "WWW", thanks for the thoughtful reply I was hoping for.


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## WWW

No harm in asking, your welcome.


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## WWW

Glock, that is a lot of mites dropping and you still have another round to go. Since your hives had so many mites have you considered doing a fourth treatment just to see what the drop would be?


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## GLOCK

WWW said:


> Glock, that is a lot of mites dropping and you still have another round to go. Since your hives had so many mites have you considered doing a fourth treatment just to see what the drop would be?


I have . I must say if I did not treat my hives i'm sure all hell was about bust lose.But I think the OAV is doing good things. And as far as fumes go just put a long cored on the oxalic acid vaporizer and when you treat walk away as easy as that.


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## Robbin

Broke down and treated 4 of my hives with check mite, because I already had some of that. The last two I treated with OA Vapor. I'll treat with OA every week untill the check mite comes off.
Then I'll do a drop count of the hives next to each other, one treated with check mite, the other with 4 weekly treatements of OA. I'll start a new thread with the results. This one has gotten pretty long.


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## cdevier

I found it easy to drive my lawn tractor behind the hives and connect the OA vaporizer to the tractor battery. The electric cord is 15 feet long. I can do 3 hives before moving the tractor.
Charlie


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## Robbin

cdevier said:


> I found it easy to drive my lawn tractor behind the hives and connect the OA vaporizer to the tractor battery. The electric cord is 15 feet long. I can do 3 hives before moving the tractor.
> Charlie



I did the same thing, but rigged a plug to the rear of my 4 wheeler. I park it between two stands and I can do 4 hives before I have to move the 4 wheeler. Beats the heck out of hauling a battery around.


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## frankthomas

This has really been a great conversation and I've followed it. But why do you (any of you) think that FGMO fogging works great for some but for others like Glock here, not so good? So now we're talking OA Vaporizing. I have loved every minute of my first year of beekeeping. The learning has been fun and at this point nearing the end of season 1 with 2 hives the most important thing I have learned is that I know very little and there is so much to learn.

But I gotta say this pest management thing is frustrating. So many differing opinions and experiences. I realize you gotta figure out what works best for you and that all beekeeping is local. It's too bad there is no consensus yet on treating Varroa. Will there ever be?


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## Robbin

Frank, I think a lot of it's perception. If you don't do counts, like I didn't until a few weeks ago, and your bees survive, fogging gets the credit. I started doing counts and discovered my counts were way too high. Depending on your bees, and your enviroment, fogging may keep the mites below the failure threshold. Glock was testing and realized it was not. My big hives were degrading so I started counting. I tried fogging because it's fast, easy and cheap. OA is the next step up from that. And I'll probably do both next year, with one hive left to just OA to see if the fogging is helping. I've only got 6 hives, I can't afford to loss any if I can help it.


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## shinbone

Frankthomas - you ask a very interesting question. GLOCK diligently fogged his hives, but still had to treat with oxalic acid, and he reported his results in this thread for everyone's benefit. Yet people reading this very thread still want to fog their hives.

My guess on why people want to fog is because it feels good: you don't put those nasty chemicals in your hive, you are physically doing something against the varroa each week, fogging makes lots of noise and smoke, so it must be doing something. The fogger walks away from the hive feeling good like he just really socked it to the varroa. It all seems so good, how could it not work? The next step is easy at that point; just ignore the fact that no reasonably well done study has shown fogging to work.


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## oldforte

what size.. gage ,, wire is used to connect the vaporizer to a 12 volt battery ... 15 ft long?


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## allniter

oldforte --I would think 16 ga. wire would be OK --the glow plugs shouldn't pull that many amps.


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## GLOCK

oldforte said:


> what size.. gage ,, wire is used to connect the vaporizer to a 12 volt battery ... 15 ft long?


I used 15 gage .
If you fog I feel as if you should do a alcohol wash come AUG. then you will know .
For me this year was the year I tried fogging with FGMO and it failed to keep the mite low that's for sure.
All the hives but one I was fogging where loaded with VARROA. And no hive was showing any sign of PMS or DWV or many mites on the sticky boards , In July mites started to drop over 10 a day on the sticky boards and I did alcohol washes on all hives and all but one had high mite loads. Two have dropped well over 2000 mites and one had well over 3000 mites since I started OAV i'm sure I would of lost a few hives by winter then some in winter.
But OAV seems to be working all my hives are doing great and all are putting on weight and i'm on my third treatment come Thursday for all my dbl deeps. I have treated my nucs one time so far I plan on treating everything 4 times by mid OCT. I do have one hive{3 deeps} out of 25 that has not dropped any VARROA and treated 1 time and not a one mite has fell to the sticky board now what does that mean I don't know but come spring if she is strong i'm going to breeding with the queen guess we will see next year. Thanks everyone. Anyone want to buy a fogger cheap I have one only used 12 times


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## snl

16 ga stranded wire works just fine. Try & use the "white" wire as it's easier to see on the ground (you're not tripping over it)...


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## PewHeretic

I agree with Shinbone. When I was just a laborer on a farm helping to take care of bees (before I started raising my own) my boss would have us fog religiously, but in retrospect I think it was for his own peace of mind more than for the bees good. Lots of smoke and noise and effort on our behalf. I can't remember having a mite "problem" but we didn't track the data very well. We worked hard to "help" but we failed to use proper scientific methods! I use powdered sugar dusting and I'm not convinced I'm doing much but helping me sleep better at night because I physically did something to help the girls. I think we feel we have to get involved....

But GLOCK is tracking the data and doing the science! Hats off!  I absolutely love being in the company of this forum because there is very good banter and lots of opinions being bantered about with very little to NO hurt feelings. In the end, it's about the bees! I admire GLOCK for doing the deed and brandishing his results as well as all the help and warnings given here. Thanks GLOCK! My whole family has been following along 

I autopsy every dead bee I find (or kill by accident) to check for pests and disease. After every hive inspection my kids spend an hour peering through the microscope. I still have NO IDEA whether I'm doing any good, or harm, by my pest management attempts. But I'll keep reading and listening and following the lead here. I hope I can add to the knowledge data base soon. Seems like I take a lot more than I give. 

Clueless in Georgia Ken


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## Bill Davis

shinbone said:


> Frankthomas - you ask a very interesting question. GLOCK diligently fogged his hives, but still had to treat with oxalic acid, and he reported his results in this thread for everyone's benefit. Yet people reading this very thread still want to fog their hives.
> 
> I don't know about glock but I can say I have not followed the recommended fogging treatment, I fogged my hives weekly but I have never added thymol or any other essential oils to my fogger. And many post ago in this thread I said that I treat with an Oa vaporizer as well as fogging. Someone who has time to track and report their findings (not me) should fog with thymol mixed in and see if the results improve. I vote for Glock lol.


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## Andrew Dewey

shinbone said:


> you don't put those nasty chemicals in your hive


Come now, mineral oil is a Petroleum distillate - even if it is "ok" for human consumption - In what way is it not a "nasty chemical?"


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## tefer2

oldforte said:


> what size.. gage ,, wire is used to connect the vaporizer to a 12 volt battery ... 15 ft long?


We used regular lamp cord bought at the box stores.
Doesn't draw many amps.


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## Stephenpbird

"Someone who has time to track and report their findings (not me) *should fog with thymol mixed in and see if the results improve.* "

I fogged a few hives with Thymol FGMO, that did not have supers on, twice a week. The Bees clearly don't like it. Every time I fogged I had a few thousand bees come storming out the hive and fly around the entrance, Some are quite aggressive and butted my vail. It takes 15-20 minutes for them to calm down and re-enter the hive.

Having followed Glocks thread from the beginning, I decided to buy an OA vaporizer and will do my 3rd treatment this weekend. Mites are dropping from all hives, even the ones treated with Thymol FGMO. I am not ready to give up on my fogger yet, but it's definitely on probation.

Stephen


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## GLOCK

Fogging with FGMO does not work all my hives where loaded with VARROA by the end of JULY .
Try it will only cost around 100.00 then you know for sure that's why I gave it a try because of all the debate behind fogging now I know it does not work.
Make sure you do a mite drop test in JULY [alcohol wash]
Now OAV works great all my hives{25} are doing great going in to fall.
I'm still treating with OAV but i'm not dropping many mites any more . and my bees are in there last brood cycle of summer and getting ready for winter . There are dead drone pupa in front my hives and the G.rod is coming to a end so before I know it will be time to wrap them up for the year.
I don't want to say OAV is the best thing I have found to fight VARROA but it is. 
Good luck.


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## Gord

Initially, FGMO was the way to go, best thing since rolled condoms; now OA is the way to go.
I appreciate that Glock had mites after fogging with straight FGMO, so he went to oxalic acid, to make sure he didn't lose his bees.
My only issue is that he never tried any way but his way.
It seems to be all or nothing, with no middle ground.
Respectfully, his results are only his own.

Dr Rodrigues used FGMO in conjunction with cotton cords loaded with grease, and reported good results.
I'm using grease patties and FGMO with wintergreen.
I don't think there is only one right answer, it's whatever works for you.


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## WWW

Gord said:


> My only issue is that he never tried any way but his way.
> It seems to be all or nothing, with no middle ground.
> Respectfully, his results are only his own.


Gord, You seem to be bit rough of Glock, he was only doing what he felt he had to do in order for his bees to survive, it is late in the season and he had to make a choice of what to treat his bees with. Oxalic acid was not "his way", it was "a way" of treatment that he chose and from what I can see he made a wise choice. His results are his own and so was mine, it might be a good idea for you to start a thread and treat your hives with FMGO and grease, then you can report on your findings as Glock has. I am not trying to be cynical here, just a suggestion.


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## PewHeretic

I enjoy how Glock did his troubleshooting. Stick with it and don't introduce any variables into the equation...it screws up the results! Changing formula was sort of an emergency action because his experiment wasn't producing favorable results....but he hung in there as long as possible to get data that was consistent. 

OA might work by itself but I'd like to see some data on it. I was almost going to go to grease patties only, then try adding wintergreen or spearmint, but I found others who are already doing the work so I thought I'd wait for their results. 

I don't treat unless forced to. I've even let colonies die from being a sickly and weak bunch but I don't like just walking away from a hive without making some attempt. Having a weak and struggling hive (like I have now) makes for a good test bed. If I'm going to let the hive die anyway, I might as well try a treatment method and make an experiment out of it to see if I can add to the already bevy of good information out there about the various pests plaguing us. 

It's been said by so many people, Glock and Gord alike, that we all already know that someone's successful treatment may not work for anyone else. Or someone's failure might be a miracle cure for someone else. But none of us will know unless we share....like we're doing now. Of course everyone's results are their own. Whose else would they be?  You guys are all great.....thanks for all your input and help. I think I got more out of this than the OP! 

Ken


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## GLOCK

Gord said:


> Initially, FGMO was the way to go, best thing since rolled condoms


So I guess your a big condom fan:scratch:?!
On a normal note I fogged with straight FGMO only to see if it worked and to let BS know my findings I now know . I didn't want to add any thing else so we could see if FGMO works it does not.
Does it work with essential oils no Idea but straight up no way.
I did brood breaks and fogged with straight FGMO weekly and it failed and this was not my way I didn't invent it I just gave it a shoot and it failed now we all know FGMO does not work alone will it work as a carrier of something that might kill the VARROA I say yes but I had a back up plan and that was OAV and I think it the best thing since color tv.:thumbsup: Till I can go treatment free OAV is looking good but hey this is my first year trying in but i know i would of had some pretty bad PMS if i did not make a move and i'm glad i did. I well have bees in 2014 and more then 2013 .
I am not sure what i'm going to do come next spring i may just watch the hives close and do alcohol washes in JULY and treat as needed .
My goal is all about me and my bees i want healthy bees and till you can keep your VARROA at a controllable levels you will fail . I one day hope to have treatment free bees but i'm only 4 years in to this and one day would like to sell queens /nucs/ deeps/ frames of brood/and honey/ I sold honey this year and have 13 nucs going in to fall and plan on selling 10 if they make through winter so i'm on my way to fulfilling my beekeeping goals. If i can help i always will but it is all about me and my bee's.


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## cdevier

I had the same results as Glock.
I fogged every week through the summer for 10 weeks with FGMO plus 15 drops of spearmint. Then at Sept 1,2013 I had too many mites on the stickyboards.
Since then, I have used OAV - three times.
My bees do look good ; however I got very little honey this year. Lack of rain? Hot?
Charlie


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## shinbone

GLOCK - How are the OA treatments going and how are your recent mite drops?

I treated with OA for the first time last weekend. I am seeing total mite drops in the low-100's after 5 days. I will treat again this weekend, assuming the weather is above 50F.


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## GLOCK

shinbone said:


> GLOCK - How are the OA treatments going and how are your recent mite drops?
> 
> I treated with OA for the first time last weekend. I am seeing total mite drops in the low-100's after 5 days. I will treat again this weekend, assuming the weather is above 50F.


I treated yesterday and only a few mites had dropped as of today I like to look on the third day seems to be the most that a hive will drop after OAV at least for me.
Last time I treated my hives dropped a lot that was like two weeks ago I think all brood is hatched out for the year now after this treatment I am done till next year.


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## grozzie2

This is an interesting thread, and, in some ways it emphasizes something we learned in our first year with hives. A lot of the ongoing summer decisions, were based on a sticky board count, natural mite drop.

During our first year, we put stickies in and did counts in late August. The two hives beside the house, one of them had a count of zero, the other a count of 1, after 24 hours. We debated treating those hives, counts were VERY low. But, we decided to go ahead, and put thymol strips in, waited 24 hours, then did another sticky board count. When I pulled the first sticky board, I started counting, lost track somewhere north of a thousand.

My conclusion. Low count on the sticky board = healthy vigorous mites that dont fall. High count on the sticky board means mites are falling. Neither of these conditions means low mite count in the hive. The sticky board count tells us nothing about the health of the bees, and a lot about the health of your mite population.

I think the experience GLOCK had counting mites on sticky boards all summer, after fogging with FGMO, kind of emphasizes the same result. Low counts on the sticky boards means mites are not falling. His experience later in the summer confirms, they were there. Same conclusion, low count on the sticky board does NOT mean lack of mites, it means, lack of unhealthy mites, which essentially infers a good healthy mite population, exactly what we DONT want.

Something else I have noticed over time, lots of folks rely on the counts from sticky boards to determine wether or not to treat. Cant remember how many times folks have told me about a hive with a low mite count in late august, confirmed by sticky board count, only to have the hive die in the winter.

My final conclusion from a lot of this, most folks are interpreting a sticky board count in error. Low count on the sticky board is being inferred as a low mite count in the hive, when in fact, it's telling us the mites are healthy and strong, not falling onto the sticky board. It's not telling us anything about how many mites are actually in that hive.


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## Live Oak

It has been awhile since I have read through this thread. I wanted to post my observations with the treatment I am currently using. I have been gradually titrating the amount of Thyme essential oil that I add to the FGMO. Currently I am fogging my hives with FGMO mixed with 60 drops of Thyme essential oil. I mix the 60 drops of Thyme essential oil in a 16 oz. bottle of FGMO. 

When I fog my hives, I apply the fog in alternating streams of fog in the entrance and the top ventilating super until I get the hive to draw the FGMO fog in through the top ventilating super and I get a steady stream of FGMO fog out of the hive entrance on the bottom board. 

I have sat and observed the behavior of the bees as they recover and ventilate the hive. Many come to the bottom board entrance and they begin to groom each other. 

My thoughts are that the FGMO fog micro droplets act in a number of ways. I suspect the micro droplets attach to the hairs on the bees and trigger grooming, I believe they have some effect on the Varro mite's ability to respirate through it exoskeleton and the Thyme oil acts as an irritant to the varroa mites. I think the Thyme essential oil/FGMO fog mix may have a similar effect on traechital mites as well. 

Api Life Var is essentially Thymol or crystalized/concentrated Thyme and is an approved treatment for varroa and tracheal mites. I think the vaporized Thyme oil may have a similar action to the Api Life Var. 

Whatever factors are involved, I can observe the nearly immediate improvement in activity in each hive once the bees are done groom each other and hives that were very low activity became MUCH more active in the following days. 

I have found that treatments such as Hopguard although very effective, are extremely labor intensive and the repeated disassembling of the hive I feel causes more harm than the Hopguard does good. Other treatments are temperature restricted. 

As has already been posted, your results may differ. The bottom line is that this seems to be working well for me and I can treat throughout the season.


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## shinbone

Live Oak - Glad to hear you are happy with the FGMO/thymol fogging treatments. Do you have before and after mite counts to share?


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## crofter

Glocks results are far from just his own! I and my son have used patent thymol treatments as well as made our own from crystals. We have used formic acid patent strips and bulk acid on meat pads, and I have dosed them daily with metered amounts. I have use hopguard strips. They all work and some have temperature limitations and varying lengths of treatment needed.

What I prefer is Oxalic Acid vaporization. It is the most flexible temperature wise and the hive does not have to be opened to do it. It is very effective and the cheapest of any treatment. I have seen zero mortality. If I had a hive with extremely high mite counts and lots of brood I would consider formic acid treatment as it is the only one that appears to have any effect on mites under cappings.

Both formic and oxalic acids are normal components of honey (though not in treatment level quantities) and any increase in levels on comb or contents is quickly dissipated. They do not bioaccumulate and there is reportedly no mechanism for mites to become resistant to their effectiveness.

I had the bee inspectors around a couple of weeks ago and they were impressed with the condition of the bees and had to be shown my homemade evaporator. They found no mites in pulled drone brood. Last treatment was in April. I have had no winter losses the last two years with 3 and 8 hives respectively.

Read about all the various options and make sure you also do a negative search about problems with any of the options. It is all to easy to do a confirmation search for what you already believe to be the one and only path.


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## shinbone

re Crofter's comments:

I, too, am a fan of oxalic acid. Easy to use and very effective. I have seen zero negative effect on the bees.

I have also used Apiguard, which is a thymol based treatment. It is also very effective, but it did cause some visible agitation in the bees, but otherwise I saw no negative effects.

Because thymol does have activity against mites, I was wondering if fogging with FGMO and thymol would have activity against mites, which is why I was wondering whether Live Oak had any before-and-after mite measurements.

Oxalic acid is so effective and easy, though, I don't see any benefit to fogging with a mixture of FGMO and thymol.


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## Robbin

Y


Live Oak said:


> It has been awhile since I have read through this thread. I wanted to post my observations with the treatment I am currently using. I have been gradually titrating the amount of Thyme essential oil that I add to the FGMO. Currently I am fogging my hives with FGMO mixed with 60 drops of Thyme essential oil. I mix the 60 drops of Thyme essential oil in a 16 oz. bottle of FGMO.
> 
> When I fog my hives, I apply the fog in alternating streams of fog in the entrance and the top ventilating super until I get the hive to draw the FGMO fog in through the top ventilating super and I get a steady stream of FGMO fog out of the hive entrance on the bottom board.
> 
> I have sat and observed the behavior of the bees as they recover and ventilate the hive. Many come to the bottom board entrance and they begin to groom each other.
> 
> My thoughts are that the FGMO fog micro droplets act in a number of ways. I suspect the micro droplets attach to the hairs on the bees and trigger grooming, I believe they have some effect on the Varro mite's ability to respirate through it exoskeleton and the Thyme oil acts as an irritant to the varroa mites. I think the Thyme essential oil/FGMO fog mix may have a similar effect on traechital mites as well.
> 
> Api Life Var is essentially Thymol or crystalized/concentrated Thyme and is an approved treatment for varroa and tracheal mites. I think the vaporized Thyme oil may have a similar action to the Api Life Var.
> 
> Whatever factors are involved, I can observe the nearly immediate improvement in activity in each hive once the bees are done groom each other and hives that were very low activity became MUCH more active in the following days.
> 
> I have found that treatments such as Hopguard although very effective, are extremely labor intensive and the repeated disassembling of the hive I feel causes more harm than the Hopguard does good. Other treatments are temperature restricted.
> 
> As has already been posted, your results may differ. The bottom line is that this seems to be working well for me and I can treat throughout the season.


Hi Live oak,
You need to do some before and after mite counts and keep running totals on either each hive or a given hive. I thought my FGMO treatments were working, but doing weekly mite counts proved to me that my mite level was continuing to climb. I was NOT using oils and would love to see your results. That said, I moved to OAV. Weekly treatments and counts proved to me that the mite count fell from several thousand (treating makes them drop like crazy) to a about a hundred in 4 weekly treatments. I eventually went to 3 treatments in the dearth after I remove my supers and 5 treatments in the cool fall months going into winter. I don't think the extra treatments are needed much, but it's Nov and pretty cool days so I don't mind giving them the extra treatments.


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## GLOCK

I used OAV at the end of last year and I must say it works great.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?301443-Varroa-test-pics


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## CBoggs

Greetings All
I kept bees 20 or 30 years ago when I never heard of mites, or OAVs. I reentered bee keeping this year, and have truly enjoyed this thread, because disease of any kind (mite or otherwise) is important to all of us, so I have some questions about the OAV to make sure I understand:
1. When using OAV you don't have to use another type of mite control? No sugar dusting, no strips, etc?
2. You just use 1 gram per deep 3 to 4 times in the fall; here in Texas probably October?
3. The reason for the 3 or 4 time is to catch all of the brood that is emerging in a 21 day cycle since it doesn't work on capped brood? Correct?
4. Could you use a 14 ga extension cord hooked up to the truck battery from 25 or 50 foot?
5. From the time the acid starts to vaporize, to 3 minutes in the hive, to 1 minute cool down before removing from the hive, your looking at 4 mins per hive approximately?
6. Does any of these vaporizers have a built in time, or auto shut off, and if so which one?
7. Is there a model most of you seem to prefer, and can you give me some links?
8. Apparently its not harmful to the bees in anyway, and can be used in a much wider temperature range than the mite strips?
9. I'm assuming everyone, or most everyone in this thread has used strips, and have concluded this to be the safest and most economical?
10. Do you have to do another 3 or 4 week treatment in the spring before the 1st honey flow, or is the fall sufficient?
11. Do you test for mites prior to treating with OA, or is it pretty normal just to assume we have mites, and treat?
12. Do you find the sugar shake, or the alcohol wash to be more accurate test?

I appreciate everyones answers, and I apologize for so many, and I'll probably have more. Looking forward to hearing from each of you.

Thanks guys.


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## Mike Gillmore

Wow, that is a loaded post. 

For each question above I've seen entire threads devoted to discussion and debate. I hope you get some good feedback, but if not it might be because it's difficult to know where to begin. I don't want to discourage anyone from responding, but you can probably do some "Oxalic Acid" searches and find many threads with numerous opinions on each of your questions. Most will have no single conclusive answer due to regional variations and personal opinion.


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## Kimkaseman

*Re: Started fooging today.*

So, if it doesn't explode, haha!! , is it a good treatment to use? Essential oils, etc?


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## snl

CBoggs said:


> Greetings All
> I kept bees 20 or 30 years ago when I never heard of mites, or OAVs. I reentered bee keeping this year, and have truly enjoyed this thread, because disease of any kind (mite or otherwise) is important to all of us, so I have some questions about the OAV to make sure I understand:
> 1. When using OAV you don't have to use another type of mite control? No sugar dusting, no strips, etc?
> I don't
> 2. You just use 1 gram per deep 3 to 4 times in the fall; here in Texas probably October?
> I would think earlier, perhaps late August - early September. You want to get them where the mites are out breeding the bees.
> 3. The reason for the 3 or 4 time is to catch all of the brood that is emerging in a 21 day cycle since it doesn't work on capped brood? Correct?
> Correct.
> 4. Could you use a 14 ga extension cord hooked up to the truck battery from 25 or 50 foot?
> Yes, but vaporization would take longer.
> 5. From the time the acid starts to vaporize, to 3 minutes in the hive, to 1 minute cool down before removing from the hive, your looking at 4 mins per hive approximately?
> Approximately
> 6. Does any of these vaporizers have a built in time, or auto shut off, and if so which one?k
> None that I know...
> 7. Is there a model most of you seem to prefer, and can you give me some links
> Varrox. OxaVap.com.
> 8. Apparently its not harmful to the bees in anyway, and can be used in a much wider temperature range than the mite strip
> That is correct if used as directed.
> 9. I'm assuming everyone, or most everyone in this thread has used strips, and have concluded this to be the safest and most economical
> Not sure about "everyone" but I have...
> 10. Do you have to do another 3 or 4 week treatment in the spring before the 1st honey flow, or is the fall sufficient
> Most likely not, but you should test for mites during that time to determine if you need to treat.
> 11. Do you test for mites prior to treating with OA, or is it pretty normal just to assume we have mites, and treat
> You ALWAYS have mites, but you Always test prior to treating to determine your mite level.
> 12. Do you find the sugar shake, or the alcohol wash to be more accurate test?
> Alcohol wash
> 
> I appreciate everyones answers, and I apologize for so many, and I'll probably have more. Looking forward to hearing from each of you.
> 
> Thanks guys.


Very short answers in red above. Lots more information scattered about in BeeSource. Do a search.


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## shinbone

Doing alcohol washes and counting mites is valuable but time consuming and consequently not an option for me. Instead, I do an OAV treatment and if I get a big mite fall, I do another treatment. In effect, killing mites _and_ checking mite numbers in one operation. To further save time, I just eyeball the mite density and pattern diameter on the white board to gauge degree of infestation.

After the first OAV treatment in the Fall of 2013, I had a relatively large mite drop (seen below). I did another treatment 1 week later and only got a few more mites, and so I stopped for the year on this hive.














.


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## johno

I treated with OAV in August this year, 4 treatments 7 days apart and thought that was it for the year, a couple of weeks later I was showing a bunch of newbees how to do mite checks the sugar roll way, just as well I did because some of the samples turned up as much as 37 mites so needless to say I went around with 4 more treatments at 5 days apart, some I did flash treatments of FA with amrine and noel fume boards and I did 1 hive with mineral oil plus wintergreen oil that one had 7 mites per sample and after 3 treatments still had 7 mites per sample so it does appear to do some good, so my advice to persons treating is sample before and definitely sample after.
Johno


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## snl

johno said:


> I treated with OAV in August this year, 4 treatments 7 days apart and thought that was it for the year


Nope, you needed to another right around Thanksgiving (when the hive is basically brood-less) to get greater than 95% of the remaining phoretic mites.


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## johno

Sure snl if I had not checked the mite levels after the first treatments the treatment in late November might have been too late, so once again it pays to do mite checks. 
Johno


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## GLOCK

I treated one time this past DEC. and this is the worst.

most looked like this or nothing at all on the sticky board .

not like last year that's for sure.

I had a great year with strong healthy bee's all year.


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## Bkwoodsbees

Glock...are you doing your OA treatments 3 at 7 day intervals or 4 at 5 day intervals? Thank you for your efforts and sharing with everyone...Robert


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## Live Oak

Glock, 

I have been mixing thymol in FGMO at 5% and foodgrade Wintergreen essential oil approx. 2 ounces per gallon. The bees definitely DO NOT like this when being fogged, this mixture seems much more effective than straight FGMO. After this long trek with fogging, I have pretty much come to the same conclusion you have. I will probably still used fogging on my nucs but I agree with your findings on OA vaporizing. My reasons for "getting there" a bit later than you is that I am treating about 50 hives. I used a Vectorfog BY100 fogger which produces probably 20 times that amount of fogging vapor the typical propane bonide type foggers do which allowed me to fog my entire apiary in about an hours vs. over 4 hours with the small propane foggers. 

Just wanted to add my thanks and appreciation for your efforts to evaluate fogging and post your results for the rest of us to benefit from. It was a HUGE help and definitely served to validate my similar findings using a bit different mix.


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## shinbone

Live Oak - Thanks for reporting your FMGO experiences. Your comments make an already informative thread even more valuable.


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## Robbin

Bkwoodsbees said:


> Glock...are you doing your OA treatments 3 at 7 day intervals or 4 at 5 day intervals? Thank you for your efforts and sharing with everyone...Robert


I reduced my OAV to a single fall treatment after most of the brood was gone. Had my first winter loses, which may or may not have had anything to do with the reduced OAV treatments.
Still, I will be going back to 3 treatments a week apart (as I'm off on weekends and can get to it). Having lost several hives over the winter, I did a single treatment during buildup, before the supers went on. I will
Follow up with a couple of treatments once the supers come off in June. It's really hot then, but I'll probably go for at least two in a row.


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## camero7

I advocate and use 4 treatments a week apart. I do it here in MA in August in order to have strong winter bees.


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## hisnibs

That report states FGMO/Thymol was effective. And recommended. I just read another report that started in the 90's in the UK and lasted years. I know this thread is several years old but I will add a link to the UK study if I don't see it here.


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## Rader Sidetrack

hisnibs said:


> That report states FGMO/Thymol was effective. And recommended.


If you are referring to this thread (started by member _Glock_), his later posts say that the FGMO treatments were _not _effective in controlling varroa and he switched to oxalic acid vaporization. See post #164 on the previous page.


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## hisnibs

USDA 2004 - not effective. - http://ars.usda.gov/research/publications/Publications.htm?seq_no_115=169445
I can not find the report I read earlier but I am leaning to negative on FGMO by itself. Great thread though. I have spent 3 days researching FGMO / Thymol / Wintergreen etc. Will move on to other needs.


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## Robbin

hisnibs said:


> USDA 2004 - not effective. - http://ars.usda.gov/research/publications/Publications.htm?seq_no_115=169445
> I can not find the report I read earlier but I am leaning to negative on FGMO by itself. Great thread though. I have spent 3 days researching FGMO / Thymol / Wintergreen etc. Will move on to other needs.


I tried FGMO back when Glock was trying it, Came to the same conclusion, it was not effective. I was using straight FGMO, never tried adding anything. But I did use it often and did drop counts. OAV on the other hand was very effective...


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## Stan The Bee Man

thanks for the info!


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## aunt betty

Been fogging with oa/grain alcohol mixture. 
It's probably not very effective at this time of year and is not really recommended. Found that there are windows on certain colonies.
For instance the ones that swarmed and have almost no capped brood. Mating nucs too. If I catch a swarm I can hit it once and I have been doing just that. Have two swarms that will be getting fogged on Monday before they get a chance to cap any brood. 
Been giving them a frame or two of drawn comb and a frame of honey and let er rip on the new foundations. Love them little comb building beasts.


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## DPBsbees

aunt betty said:


> Been fogging with oa/grain alcohol mixture.
> It's probably not very effective at this time of year and is not really recommended. Found that there are windows on certain colonies.
> For instance the ones that swarmed and have almost no capped brood. Mating nucs too. If I catch a swarm I can hit it once and I have been doing just that. Have two swarms that will be getting fogged on Monday before they get a chance to cap any brood.
> Been giving them a frame or two of drawn comb and a frame of honey and let er rip on the new foundations. Love them little comb building beasts.


Aunt Betty are you finding fogging with OA/grain alcohol to be as effective as OAV?


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## buddygold

The highest level alcohol I could find is 76.5 %. That is the Max allowed in Florida. Has anybody tried anything other then the 95%


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## aunt betty

Don't know if it's effective of not. 
I do know that my bees are making a whole lot of honey this spring. 
Our major flow is just beginning. Have boxes full of nectar and will need to harvest capped honey this week.
Need to make room for the white clover honey that's starting to come in.
Can not testify as to whether or not the fogger with oav works.

It's 50:50 at this point either it does or it doesn't.


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## Jamesdenny

Hello have a question what are you fogging with? Thanks


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Jamesdenny said:


> Hello have a question what are you fogging with? Thanks


This is an OLD thread. Ultimately Glock found that fogging with mineral oil did not save his hives and went to another product. Lately there has been some talk of fogging with oxalic acid, but I have never done it and have NO idea if it even works. Personally I use OAD this time of year.

Rusty


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## Gord

I use a Black Flag fogger and fog with Food Grade Mineral Oil with one drop of wintergreen per ounce of FGMO.
You can use up to two drops per ounce.
I use it twice weekly in August/September. 
I also use grease patties with wintergreen around mid September.
These are my only treatments and my bees survive.


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## snl

Gord

You are indeed fortunate.....


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## johno

Let me put it this way, I have used mineral oil and wintergreen and found my mite counts on the hive tested remained static after 3 treatments so I would say that I would rather fog once a week with mineral oil and wintergreen than use powdered sugar once a week. I have found that formic and oxalic acids are far more efficient in dealing with mites and have always tried to find the quickest way to apply these treatments. Formic flash boards work sometimes and is slow to perform, OAD is also not so easy as hives need to be opened to get to brood boxes and with the robbing that takes place in my area this time of the year I am steering away from that. I have OAV down to little over 1 minute per hive at present so that is where I am at this moment. However having used a fogger I can see the time advantage if it can be successfully used, I would say down to 10 seconds per hive so fogging of OA certainly is of interest. This thing about overheating OA I feel is overblown as I can see when I add OA to a vessel at 550F it drops to about 340F during sublimation and only rises when sublimation is complete.
Johno


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## debmarv

Not to get off the 'author's' topic but, I have been fumingating with FGMO for 4 or 5 years now. Weekly like clockwork. The first couple years, i thought it was working then around the third year, the mites seemed to have gotten a foothold and weakened my colonies enough that many didn't survive the upcoming winter. I didn't do mite counts but could tell from the DWV and crawlers that there was a big problem. It was too late in the season to do much. I had no chemicals on hand. But, the next season i decided to add formic acid to my arsenal in addition to FGMO. And now i add wintergreen essential oil to the mineral oil as well. This seems to be working so far.


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## Rader Sidetrack

debmarv said:


> Not to get off the 'author's' topic but, ....


It's a loooong thread, but if you read far enough, the 'author' came to the conclusion that fogging with mineral oil simply was not effective in controlling varroa, and changed his treatment regime.


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## AHudd

debmarv said:


> Not to get off the 'author's' topic but, I have been fumingating with FGMO for 4 or 5 years now. Weekly like clockwork. The first couple years, i thought it was working then around the third year, the mites seemed to have gotten a foothold and weakened my colonies enough that many didn't survive the upcoming winter. I didn't do mite counts but could tell from the DWV and crawlers that there was a big problem. It was too late in the season to do much. I had no chemicals on hand. But, the next season i decided to add formic acid to my arsenal in addition to FGMO. And now i add wintergreen essential oil to the mineral oil as well. This seems to be working so far.


When you say weekly would I be correct in assuming you mean during the active season? If yes, when does your season begin and end. I am curious as to how many treatments this is so I can compare that to the 12 treatments per year I perform with OAV. 

Alex


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