# type of queen is this



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Looks to me like a Cordoban Italian. The cordoban is just a recessive gene that makes the light like that. Pretty queen though..


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## tomkat (Apr 27, 2014)

My friend calls them mutts.


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## Deepsouth (Feb 21, 2012)

tomkat said:


> My friend calls them mutts.


Exactly 
All bees are mutts in my opinion. No pure strains, I just call them Honeybees.


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## imthedude (Jan 28, 2013)

the pretty kind.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Cordovan Italian - homozygous color mutation.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

That queen isn't cordovan, black thorax gives it away. I'd say Italian but you never know these days.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

What? I beg to differ, where do you see a black thorax? The foundation she's standing on is "black", but her thorax certainly isn't. It looks darker than it actually is, only due to the lighting of the photo and the photo is not displayed in beesource at full size/resolution.

Perhaps the original poster could take another pic or two, from different angles and lighting, to confirm. Perhaps I am mistaken - I'd like to be certain.

Here's a pic of one of mine:


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## JackChing (Apr 22, 2014)

here are couple more pictures. she is marked now.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Thank you JackChing, for the update and additional photos.
She certainly looks to have Cordovan coloration. I'm wondering why she's marked in red? It looks like a very good marking, but the international color for 2014 is green.


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## JackChing (Apr 22, 2014)

she was a swarm queen so I figured she was last years queen which is why she is marked red.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Apis Mellifera L.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

JackChing said:


> she was a swarm queen so I figured she was last years queen which is why she is marked red.


That makes sense, I see now that it's a shade of red which I once used, myself.


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## Cris (Mar 10, 2011)

Definately cordovan mutt (maybe a carni mix since she's darker than a pure cordovan italian?)


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Cris said:


> Definately cordovan mutt (maybe a carni mix since she's darker than a pure cordovan italian?)


Would that make her a Corni?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Now we're in this debating circle again. Funny that this happens every year.
Beekeeping is so much fun. Don't you agree?

I'd say this one is an Italian queen. Though not sure what mutt she is. 
She got the black dot at the end that a typical Corvodan does not. 
Any queen with a black/darker spot at the end is label Italian.
If a Corvodan with a black dot at the end then she is a mutt to me. But to be label as
a Cordovan her body has to bee all uniform in yellowish/reddish bronze or such. Zbe got
the reddish color and Joseph got the yellow color Cordovan. And I don't know what is skc
mean? We'll see what Cordovan queen color I will get. Hopefully they will not have the darker
spot at the end.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Didn't mean to offend, but Joseph, that is a black thorax to me. This is a Cordovan queen to me. 
, 
one of her Cordovan daughters.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

What is humorous  to me now, is that I realize that few if any of you have kept any of your Cordovan Italian queens more than one season. I have several that are in their third year. But, even by their second year, they darken up considerably. I will try to get my camera out there, today and take a pic of a two year old Cordovan Italian and a three year old Cordovan Italian queen.

Believe it or not, the OP has indicated that this queen is at least going on her second season (it is why he marked her in red) - which explains why she is much darker than a Cordovan Italian queen who is only one year old, or less. Of course, if you've never kept a Cordovan Italian queen into her second or later years, you likely wouldn't be aware of how much they darken as they age. I've kept Cordovan Italian queens, off and on, for almost fifty years, several have always hung in there, past their first season. Most recently I've not only kept several, but for the past ten years or so, I've been raising about a hundred per year, more or less, and sharing them with others.


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## JackChing (Apr 22, 2014)

http://youtu.be/bxtuo394EE4









Here is another swarm hive with dark, long queen I need help identifying.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> What? I beg to differ, where do you see a black thorax?


The abdomen is orange, the thorax is black (actually a very dark brown). Color can not be used to identify honey bee types. All you can say about an orange queen is that she's orange. In the USA the bees are all mixed background (mutts if you want to call them that). Even in Europe, the bees are pretty well mixed up. You would have a hard time finding pure types now, except in isolated regions like parts of Turkey or the Caucasus Mountains


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Here is another swarm hive with dark, long queen I need help identifying.


Definitely one of mine, send her back


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## Bodhited (Jul 2, 2013)

Which type is this?


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## Bodhited (Jul 2, 2013)

Which kind is this?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, their color will definitely darken at the 2nd year.
Other than the darker/brown thorax, does anybody noticed the darker spot at the end? 
Isn't this typical of an Italian queen bee and not a straight Cordovan queen? I mean how else
do we tell the difference if both Cordovan and the Italian got this black spot at the end. They can
both have variation in color too. 
Without this spot at the end they are all Cordovan and with the spot they all are Italian. Don't you ALL agree?
If not please explain on this....
And if we do not OR cannot I.D. the queen bee by her color then without a genetic test it is hard to say what mutt we have.
But for the sake of identification we still have to say what she is. She is not a carni queen mutt alright. She could bee but I cannot use her
color for this purpose, according to the poster. So what do I use then? Please explain too if we cannot use the color to id queen bees....


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

My cordovan mother queen is unknown in age, picked up her in a rather nice swarm last year fairly early in the season and she overwintered and has built up great. She still looks the same, all brown, no black, her daughter has a bit of a black tip on the abdomen though but for being a single frame split was happy to get another 'cordovan' looking queen.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have not seen a Cordovan with a dark/brown spot at the end.
Here is my Italian with a lighter body color and the dark spot that I just marked her.
I have lighter queens but they are not Cordovan just because of this spot at their end.
How many percent is cordovan or italian? I don't know because I still think they are all 'mutts.'
I think the cordovan will not change her color much but the italians will at her 2nd year.



Just marked Italian queen bee: The color is green not blue from the flash.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

Just because they have a black spot on them doesnt make them Italian. Thats like saying that every white truck is a Ford.

I do agree that just about every queen is a mix of some kind, with varying percentages of races in their genetic makeup.


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## JackChing (Apr 22, 2014)

here are a couple better pix of the queen


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

In my reality, all _Apis mellifera_ in the U. S. A. are so completely mutticized, that the only thing I can be certain of, genetically, by visual cues, is a bee that is homozygous for the cordovan trait. I have no illusions that a bee, titled "Cordovan Italian" has any actual, measurable degree of _Apis mellifera ligustica_ blood, than blood of any or all other subspecies, the Italian moniker, in this instance, just alludes to the lighter shade of color that any particular Cordovan honey bee exhibits. Bees of darker coloration, also homozygous for the cordovan trait, do not show themselves to be so lightly golden in color. I use the cordovan color trait as a marker, to help identify infiltration of AHB in my apiaries/colonies, though it is hypothetically possible for AHBs to also acquire this trait - what a horrible thought.

Apparently the distinction that the cordovan trait imparts to individual honey bees that are homozygous for the gene, is to virtually eliminate all, black pigment from their exoskeletons. Individual bees, as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, can still be prone to blemishes, or freckles (in this instance, the tip segment of the abdomen being darker than the others - it still isn't black). I've even had one Cordovan Italian queen with two, black spots on a segment of her abdomen (freckles/moles/beauty marks).
------------------

I apologize for not getting the pics that I spoke of. Our temps have been pretty rough, recently (over 100F), so I haven't been working the hives as much as I usually do. I will get those pics as soon as I can.


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

i find it interesting that none of the attending workers in the photos posted have the cordovan coloring.


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