# Is 118 degree F honey still "raw"??



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I'd like to know what the warmest temperature you would still consider a pail of honey to be raw.

I came across this:

"Most experts would say that the honey will not lose any of its benefits and can still be considered raw if it is maintained through production and storage at 118 degrees F or lower."


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## Lance99 (Sep 21, 2010)

My personal opinion is that it can be no warmer than hive temperature, which is around 95 degrees. Even better is if nothing is done to it.

Lance


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

No way.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

How hot does it get in honey houses in Texas and the Southwest?

Or in a storage shed in the South?


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## honeybeekeeper (Mar 3, 2010)

Well anything above 115 degrees would destroy the antioxidants & vitamins. Also they say that over heated honey looses much of its natural aroma and flavor in the honey!


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Some states, like Florida, are defining honey and how it can be processed to eliminate crap like that. Keep your cooked sugar syrup, because it is not honey after that, up North please!


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> Some states, like Florida, are defining honey and how it can be processed to eliminate crap like that. Keep your cooked sugar syrup, because it is not honey after that, up North please!


Stifle yourself Edith! 

There was no mention of cooking or heating.

How hot do honey supers get sitting on a truck in the State of Florida?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

118 degrees seems like intentional heating to circumvent any 120 limit. I never stop with a load of supers unless curiosity gets the best of me and she gives me change for my $2.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

BeeCurious said:


> How hot do honey supers get sitting on a truck in the State of Florida?


Not 120 degrees I assure you.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

honey supers certainly get to 120F in the desert southwest areas and still produce raw honey. Heck... even here we get to 113-115 every now and then and there ain't any bees left in the hive. They are all hanging off the front porch.

And everyone loves my raw honey !!


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

Born and raised in southern Arizona and as a country/farm boy I have seen and worked in 115-120 deg. and would think that once the bees are removed from a supper it will heat up real quick.However temps like that are most common mid June thru late Aug. after spring harvest and before fall harvest, but I did not have bees down there so I could be wrong. Jim


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## candlaman (Nov 17, 2007)

In my opinion, the only raw honey is that in the comb. If it is sold any other way, it has been "processed" some way or another. When a customer asks us if our honey is raw, we describe how we process it and let them decide.

Candlaman


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If the "pail of honey" was first extracted in a timely manner, and then allowed to reach 118 F, or heated to 118 F, then most definitely "NO". If the honey was removed from the bees at 95 F, but through lack of diligence, or intentional heating before or during extracting, I still vote "NO". If for some reason the bees could not hold the temperature to 95 F due to limited resources, I would have to vote "Yes", it is as the bees left it. My point here is that you have to look at intent. Did the beekeeper provide reasonable care in handling the honey once it had left the possession of the bees?

Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Right on Candalman. On the other hand, the term "raw" as pertaining to honey is a convention not a truley altered or maintained state like raw meat orraw vegetables. For the most part unless the honey is heated to a temperature that burns the sugars in honey, very little is changed.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Amen to Roland and Candlaman. Honey has enzymes and proteins that break down at higher temps leaving just sugar. As for the what ifs, supers were in a black steel building in direct sun, propane tank blew up next door, left on the truck in the sun, etc. WAG and SWAG temperature guesses truly identify the A generating them. I would never sell honey in comb over 120. That is what it tastes like out of the capping melter. Even the bees do not like that junk.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I think the problem is with the word 'raw'. Does raw mean 'not cooked'? If we are discussing 'not cooked' then what does cooking mean? With meat, 120F is not cooking. The goal of cooking is usually to kill unwanted organisms. Until someone can tell me specifically what is destroyed by limited exposure to 120F v.s. two months of summer heat in the hive, I would just say the honey is raw because it has not been cooked. I agree that comb honey is the least processed but that really doesn't address the concerns of the customer. I, for one, would be really surprised if limited exposure to 120F had any significant nutritional impact. Which is worse, two months of 95F daytime temperatures, or a few hours at 120F? 
In Nevada, the honey has a very low moisture content and 100F is about the minimum for pumping. I try and stay around 100F but barrels of crystalized honey may take a little more persuasion. So, which is better, to let a barrel crystalize and heat it later or to keep it around 80F-90F for months?


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

It is my understanding that enzymes start to break down at 125 degrees. I started a similar thread some time back asking how warm honey could be heated and still be considered raw. I want to be able to call my honey raw, but it's a lot easier to bottle it at 100 than it is to bottle at 70.

At the time, 125 degrees seemed to be the consensus cutoff temperature between raw and processed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> Honey has enzymes and proteins that break down at higher temps leaving just sugar.
> 
> 
> > Huh? When have you evr seen that? Just sugar? What do you think honey is? Technically not "Sugar", but it is made up of sugars.
> ...


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> I have a RAW Honey Label. It means that it was never artificially heated, not even in a hot room. I make no other claims about it, other than being RAW.


What size strainer are you able to use for that honey?


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## Lance99 (Sep 21, 2010)

> Off Topic, sorta. I offered a taste of Comb Honey to a woman yesterday and she said that she couldn't eat it because she is pregnant and her doctor told her not to eat honey. What's that all about? She didn't know why.



Children under the age of 1 are not supposed to eat honey due to a potential for botulism. That's why we are supposed to put labels to that effect on the honey.

Lance


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

In the summer here in S.W. Mo. the temps. get over 100F and my hives set in direct sunlight, with the sun beating down on the tin roof and the hives setting on concrete blocks the temp would exceed 120F. I don't recall the temp. that beeswax will melt but my way of thinking is if the honey is still in the cells and the cappings intact (sealed) the honey is raw. Jack


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I know about the recommendation. Some doctors go even further and recommend no honey until 2.5 years of age. But this was a recommendation to a pregnant woman that she, not her baby, not eat honey. Wht's the rationale and what's the basis for the recommendation?

BC, I don't strain it either.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Thanks Jack.... 

Thanks Mark


Joe


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

I read somewhere that there is no problem for a pregnant woman to eat raw honey as her immune system is mature and will take care of them both. Doctors do advise that children must be at least 2 years old for them to eat honey as their immune system is still developing. Maybe her doctor is ultra cautious or.....

Brooksbeefarm: Beeswax melts at about 145 to 147 degrees.

I am still trying to educate my brother that sugar and honey are NOT the same as far as even how the body handles it. He says "sugar is sugar" implying that honey is sugar.


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## hipifreq (Sep 9, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Off Topic, sorta. I offered a taste of Comb Honey to a woman yesterday and she said that she couldn't eat it because she is pregnant and her doctor told her not to eat honey. What's that all about? She didn't know why.


t:She's following the medical advise of her doctor, I wouldn't try countering it at all. I would point out to her that she doesn't know WHY her doctor said that, and she should ask. She should ask not only her doctor, but another one too. IANAD, but there's no risk to the baby from a pregnant woman eating raw honey, and her doctor should know better or she should have a new doctor. Of course, especially when it comes to people's doctors, MUCH TACT should be used when criticizing them.

Anyway, IMHO, raw honey is honey that has not been cooked. Good point HVH - heating meat to 120 is not "cooking" the meat, but it is just asking for trouble as you're putting the meat into dangerous microbial territory. I would say the same for honey, 118 is not "cooking" the honey, but you're risking denaturing the proteins that are considered beneficial. Raw honey really should be left unheated in any way. It may be harder to bottle at 70, but that justifies the extra price for raw.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

That is the first time I heard 2 years old.... Where did you get the information?

I've always heard 1 year old and older is safe for eating honey. In fact check out the national honey board's website:

http://www.honey.com/nhb/about-honey/frequently-asked-questions/category/honey-properties/





Bee Bliss said:


> I read somewhere that there is no problem for a pregnant woman to eat raw honey as her immune system is mature and will take care of them both. Doctors do advise that children must be at least 2 years old for them to eat honey as their immune system is still developing. Maybe her doctor is ultra cautious or.....
> 
> Brooksbeefarm: Beeswax melts at about 145 to 147 degrees.
> 
> I am still trying to educate my brother that sugar and honey are NOT the same as far as even how the body handles it. He says "sugar is sugar" implying that honey is sugar.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

t:
Well, I guess I worded that poorly as I've also read the 1 year old age limit minimum. It was my cousin's child's doctor that stated the 2 year old limit. (Another ultra cautious doctor) I told my cousin that I heard the age to be 1 year old, but that she should listen to her doctor. (I wasn't going to discredit her doctor to her or cause hard feelings. She had the information and she could make her choice at that point.)

An apitherapist we know disputes even the 1 year old limit saying that honey was falsely found to be the culprit due to a sick baby living in a poor home with a dirt floor, etc. etc. and that spores would be present due to this also. I don't know the history of this, however, it is what she told us.

Is it surprising that doctors have different opinions (right or wrong) like the rest of us?


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

The length of time honey is held at a high temp also affects some of its beneficial properties. Running honey through a flash heater, than cooling it quickly isn't supposed to hurt honey much. But probably kills some of the things holistic people are looking for in honey.

Personally Id say under 110F, but not an expert.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What are these beneficial properties? And how abundant are hey in raw honey as opposed to honey that has been heated to 140 degrees?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

HVH - maybe I can answer your question, The general rule in chemistry is that reaction rates double every 10 deg C(18 deg F). If you do the math for your durations of time, I think you will find that a slightly higher temperature(85-90F) for a very long time is more damaging than a lower storage temperature of 70F for a almost long time, followed by a brief period at hive temperature(95 F?) to decrystallize. Either way, it has been heated, and I would not consider it raw.

Roland


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## MeriB (Mar 15, 2010)

Sugar is sugar. the difference is that honey is a complex sugar which can be broken down into simple sugars. At that point, the body uses them the same. For most people, it does not matter BUT, a person with diabetes needs to be careful if they use insulin. They may not be able to process the sugar.
Meridith


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

I suspect that too much heat (whatever level that is) kills the "live" (active) enzymes and can destroy the vitamins in raw honey much like cooking food can destroy vitamins in it.

Did some checking on "sugar is sugar" and this is what I found:

Source: Bee Pollen, Royal Jelly, Propolis and Honey by Rita Elkins, M.H.

*Raw honey is high in nutrition and is a living food *which contains proteins, carbohydrates, hormones, organic acids and antimicrobial compounds, live enzymes, vitamins, minerals and trace elements. It also has medicinal value internally and externally and aids the body in absorption of minerals.

*White sugar is refined and is a dead substance with no vitamins or minerals. * It has no nutritional value and is linked with development of carcinogens. 

Honey is mainly glucose and fructose which are simple sugars. White sugar is sucrose and requires additional processing to be digested. Honey glucose increases the body's uptake of minerals like zinc, calcium and magnesium, but white sugar can leech them. White sugar inhibits intake of calcium thus weakening bones and blocking growth.

*Honey supplies instant energy without the insulin surge that white sugar causes. *

This last statement alone tells me sugar and honey are not the same. The body handles it differently. As far as diabetics are concerned, yes, they should use honey in moderation and avoid all white sugar. (I guess we all should for that matter!)


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

For what it's worth,from what i've heard and read that 120F is the breaking point for raw honey,anything over 120F is syurp. I agree that 100F and under is better and between 100F and 120F is the twilight zone. As for the nutritional value of honey, would have alot to do with what the honey was made from.The bees maintain the temp. inside the hive for there brood and stores or all would be lost, any capped honey from the hive is Raw Honey,where else are you going to get it. The sugar Vs. honey thing, i have been told that the human body can not digest granulated sugar and that honey goes directly to the blood stream? Now remember i'm just an old Mo. sprout cutter repeating what i've read and heard over the years,:s Jack


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Roland said:


> HVH - maybe I can answer your question, The general rule in chemistry is that reaction rates double every 10 deg C(18 deg F). If you do the math for your durations of time, I think you will find that a slightly higher temperature(85-90F) for a very long time is more damaging than a lower storage temperature of 70F for a almost long time, followed by a brief period at hive temperature(95 F?) to decrystallize. Either way, it has been heated, and I would not consider it raw.
> 
> Roland


The point I was trying to make is that all of these hard and fast rules about honey nutrition should be taken with a grain of salt. Most of us would agree that comb honey is the most natural but is Tupelo honey, that has been laying around in the comb at 80F for a few years, raw? All of the compounds that we are told break down in honey are likely to be broken down by our digestive system anyhow. Can anyone name a substance in honey that is destroyed at 120F within a few hours but is stable in a hot hive for three months? If we are really concerned then we should all be extracting ASAP, and selling frozen honey. And how many of you here have heated a barrel of crystalized honey but posted about the evils of heating honey? IMHO, heating honey as little as possible is just common sense. A barrel of crystallized honey will require more heating than a fresh batch of honey with a moisture content near 18%. I've had honey with a moisture content of 11% and don't think anyone on this forum would have been willing to pump or bottle at 80F.

Regarding pregnant women and babies, honey has been shown to have higher levels of Clostridium botulinum than found in most other unprocessed foods. Some speculate that dead bees may be the source, but either way, the one year rule for babies adds a margin of safety. As for pregnant women, it is really difficult to see how a botulinum spore could get into the mothers blood stream and to the baby. Since the mother and baby don't share a digestive tract it is beyond me why an educated doctor would make such a recommendation. And what about breast feeding? Are breasts tied into the alimentary tract?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Did somebody say "Live Enzyme"? That's a good one!


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Oops...... well in the book I was reporting from the author it does state "live enzymes" which probably means active. Sorry, in typing it I guess I reworded it and misrepresented what the author meant. Thanks for the correction! :doh:

Here is another bit from another source:

Foods that are raw or living are foods that contain enzymes. If you heat food over 116 degrees F, the enzymes will be destroyed. Temperatures as little as 106 degrees F will degrade enzymes.


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## Bee Draggle (Apr 5, 2006)

There seems to be a wide range of opinions among beeks as to what the term "raw" means. What the term means to the customer also varies as to what is in their minds. Has the FDA ever defined the term "raw"? Is it just some feel good throw away term?


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## criscojohn (Sep 11, 2010)

Regarding babies and honey--I'm not a doctor in any way, but. . . Many medications and substances cross the blood-placenta barrier, which is why you can't take certain things during pregnancy. Same holds true for the milk production--that's why babies cringe the day after Mom eats garlic. I'm assuming the Docs think the botulism spores can travel in Mom's bloodstream and be transferred to the baby. Pregnant women also can't eat unripe cheese (Bleu, for instance). Do the mold spores pass to the baby? Perhaps the Docs are erring on the side of caution. Probably better safe than sorry. I do know (from microbiology) that botulism spores in honey can cause "floppy baby syndrome" in infants (nerves are attacked), Doc is probably thinking this can happen in utero, too.


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## bigevilgrape (Aug 21, 2008)

Someone had a link in here that went to the honeyboard FAQ page. It said there is no official definition for raw honey.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Bee Bliss said:


> Oops...... well in the book I was reporting from the author it does state "live enzymes" which probably means active. Sorry, in typing it I guess I reworded it and misrepresented what the author meant. Thanks for the correction! :doh:
> 
> Here is another bit from another source:
> 
> Foods that are raw or living are foods that contain enzymes. If you heat food over 116 degrees F, the enzymes will be destroyed. Temperatures as little as 106 degrees F will degrade enzymes.


The sprouted, dried, and kilned barley corns that I make beer from are pretty much dead yet they have plenty of active alpha- and beta-amylase enzymes. 

The bottle of Beano that I keep in the medicine cabinent is loaded with active enzymes. Is it alive?


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi Mark,
I knew someone would call me out. There is a lot of info on it in The Hive & the Honey Bee. I've been reading it through lately, but don't remember the specifics.

Check it out, its got more info than you'll ever want to know.



sqkcrk said:


> What are these beneficial properties? And how abundant are hey in raw honey as opposed to honey that has been heated to 140 degrees?


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> What are these beneficial properties? And how abundant are hey in raw honey as opposed to honey that has been heated to 140 degrees?


amylase. It breaks down starches in the diets among other things.


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