# Frames from 2x4's



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Yesterday I picked up a few 96" (8') long, 2x4's from my nearby box store. They were more than $2, but less than $3. I also had to pick through about ten undesirable ones for each one I selected.

Anyway, I had already made a plan for turning them into frames:

Top Bars
1) Cut as many 19" long, knot-free sections as possible.
2) Run these through the band saw, cutting 7/8" wide x 1-1/2" high pieces, three per piece, with a narrower piece left over.
3) Run the narrow edges (both sides) through the router table creating a comb-guide profile.
4) On the table saw, using a dado blade, cut shoulders on all four outer edges, forming what will be the frame ears (where the frames are supported in the supers).
5) Take them through the band saw again, this time cut the single piece blank into two Top Bars. 

Bottom Bars
1) Take the narrower pieces remaining from cutting Top Bar blanks (in the first sequence), trim them to 17" in length.
2) Run them through the router table - if you want a bottom comb guide profile.
3) Band saw them into two Bottom Bars, each.

** This won't provide a sufficient quantity of Bottom Bars, so you will need to cut more lumber into pieces that can then be cut into additional Bottom Bars.

End Bars
1) Cut clear segments of 2x4 to the length that equals the depth of the frames you are making.
2) Run one end through the table saw with a dado blade, making a groove across the width, equal to the width of the Top Bars (7/8").
3) Cut End Bars, 3/8" thick from these blanks. You will now have a pile of blank End Bars that are 1-1/2" thick. [I get nine from each 2x4 blank - with a small piece of scrap.]
4) Pass each End Bar through the band saw again, removing 1/8" from each edge. Your finished End Bars are now 1-1/4" wide.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Homemade frame assembly:

1) I first take a Top Bar, dab Titebond III wood glue where the End Bar will contact the Top Bar.
2) Then I push the End Bar onto the Top Bar, while holding it firmly in place, I drill two small pilot holes through the top edge of the End Bar, and at a slight angle, up and into the Top Bar.
3) Then I hammer in two 1-1/2" frame nails, and use a nail set to ensure they are recessed slightly below the surface of the wood.
4) Next I take a Bottom Bar and dab a little glue on each end, set it in place between the bottom ends of the End Bars, drill pilot holes.
5) Then using another two 1-1/2" frame nails, I hammer them in and set them with the nail set.

This way, all nails used to assemble frames are perpendicular to the force usually applied to frames in daily use. I also like to take some of the glue that seeps out of the joints and place it over the recessed nail heads, helping to keep them from creeping out over time.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

When cutting any lumber into frames, it woudl be helpful to understand how wood will tend to move. Since even small warps, expansion or shrinkage will make a big difference in how the frames fit in the hive.
First, any lumber you buy you want to be as dry as possible. Pick it up. the lightest boards are the driest.
Any lumber you are likely to buy at a Lowes, Home depot or even a lumber yard will expand or contract in these directions form most to least. Length, width, thickness. 

look at teh growth rings of the wood, as it dreis these rings will tend to straighten out. This is how you know how a piece of wood will cup or warp. So straight grain is important.

The number one concern with wood shrinking once it is a hive frame. is in the width of the frame. 
If you notice the stapes above in cutting frames the thickness of the 2x4 becomes the width of the frame. this makes the direction of least movement the width of your frame. It is important that you make frames with this detail in mind. It goes a very long way in reducing or eliminating shrinkage, warping and other wood movement.


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

Sounds like allot of work for something you can buy for a buck or so. I doubt the electricity alone would be less then buying them, never-mind your time and cost of the 2x4's. I recently picked up big load of 2x6's 36" (433 of them) long for almost nothing and one thing I considered is making frames but they are so cheap to buy I cant see making them. Please tell me where I am wrong.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It's not just about cheapest. Some people enjoy making their own hive parts, myself included.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Or making hive parts that are different from the versions that are commercially available. I'm pretty certain Joseph Clemens is building frames to a different design than can be purchased from the large suppliers.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Yep, if I could buy frames with 7/8" wide Top Bars (with comb guides an integral part of the Top Bars) and 1-1/4" wide End Bars, I would not take the time and trouble to make my own. I do enjoy woodworking, but not to this degree. I only make frames, so I can have the frames the way I want them.


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## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

I made seventy frames from white pine stock i brought home from a job site.Cost almost nothing to build if i was going to buy them 70.00 plus shipping.I'm laid off so i have plenty of time.Here's pic of my frames.
http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i418/DCBees/DSC01944.jpg


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

[sorry...2 beekeepers sharing one computer when they both have beesource accounts is bound to get mixed up eventually..this is deknow writing from Ramaona's account]
Hi Joseph,
I've been wondering about your frames...the image I have in my mind is that when the frames are in the box and pushed together, there are no gaps between the side bars..bees can move between the top bars and between the bottom bars...is this correct?

What do you see in a setup like this? More/less propolis on the inside of the box (or on the outsides of the frames)? Do bees tend not to occupy the space between the outside of the side bars and the inside of the box?

I've seen this in limited practice in some of Dee Lusby's hives, as this is what her "swarm ketching frames" are like when they are assembled, but I've only seen 4-5 of these together in a box....outfitting a whole hive this way is interesting....anything you can share? Thanks,

deknow


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Like mentioned above it is best if you pay attention to the direction the grain is running, especially in the top and bottom bars. Quarter sawn grain will be most stable and not allow lateral movement, rift sawn is second best... If the grain is flat sawn your frames will droop and may twist side to side.


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## twintrades (Jul 17, 2011)

I made my own frames as well. Yea if you add the time it takes,cost of wood fasteners ect its cheaper to just but them. But if your willing and have the stuff/time. Why not ?


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## French Lick Apiaries (Nov 11, 2011)

Ramona said:


> I've been wondering about your frames...the image I have in my mind is that when the frames are in the box and pushed together, there are no gaps between the side bars..bees can move between the top bars and between the bottom bars...is this correct?
> 
> What do you see in a setup like this? More/less propolis on the inside of the box (or on the outsides of the frames)? Do bees tend not to occupy the space between the outside of the side bars and the inside of the box?
> 
> ...


Having no gaps between the frame sidebars is the same configuration as HoneySuperCell and to a great extent PF-120 frames.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

....thanks....I totally missed that. We have a lot of HSC and PF100 frames, but rarely (if ever) use a whole box full of either (most of our frames are foundationless). ...but I need to pay more attention 

deknow


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

I've started making some frames as well. It's not really about cost, though I have more time than money, like Joseph I'm making frames that so far are not available commercially, narrow foundationless myself. Even with glue and staples and buying all the lumber and factoring waste I'm still running between 30-40 cents a frame, and I build most of it out of scrap so 25cents would be more accurate. I don't make everything out of 2x4s though.

Top bars
8ft lengths of extra thick decking (1 5/16") that I plane down to 1"
1) I cut 19" blocks out then make two cuts on each end to make a 1/2" ear (it comes out smoother and isn't as hard on my saw as a dado blade and takes about the same time)
2) I then cut them to 7/8" width, theres a narrow piece of scrap on either end to avoid the rounded corners.
3) I make a 3/8" wide 1/8" deep groove on both sides and ends for the endbar (I could leave it and use a wider notch in the end bar, but it'd be too weak imo).
4) I then run them through the table saw to cut a 45deg bevel for a comb guide on the bottom side (I have a jig that attaches to the fence so I'm well clear of the blade.

I get 25 topbars for each 8ft board, which makes this my most expensive component at 15cents.

End bars
1) I plane 2x4s down to 1.25inches (narrow frames) and cut blanks to the desired length (6.25" for med in my case)
2) I use a 5/8" dado blade to put a 3/8" deep notch in the bottom and a 1/2" deep notch in the top for my top and bottom bars. I've don't like the standard 3/4", my narrow end bars were too flimsy at the ends.
3) I have a jig/push block thats a couple feet long set up to hold each blank and I run it through the jointer with a stop on it to get the tapered ends before I cut them to width.
4) I then cut them all to 3/8" width on the table saw with a jig I set up.

I can get 7bars per blank, I could get 8 if I had a decent bandsaw, but I don't and the table saw jig is fast. So far all of these have been made out os scrap so the cost is 0, but buying kiln dried 2x4s at Menards they would run me 5cents a pair, after sorting through the giant pile of 2x4s of course.

Bottom bars
1) All made from scrap 5/8" X 3/8". If I run out of scrap I'll plane some 1X lumber to 5/8" to knock them out, but so far there hasn't been a need. Those would run about 9cents a piece if I had to do that.

Most of what leaves my shop as waste is saw dust, which gets composted or used in the chicken coop and composted. If it's too small to use and too big to compost it gets burned in the boiler =).

Waste not Want not, I'm not cheap, just poor and practical.

Mr. C


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

I'm starting to wonder if I should bother tapering the end bars. I've just been doing it that way, because all the commercial frames I've seen have it and people say they will propalize them together, but I've also heard people say that if you have straight end bars, they don't slap together in transit. Anyone had experience either way?


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## French Lick Apiaries (Nov 11, 2011)

deknow said:


> ....thanks....I totally missed that. We have a lot of HSC and PF100 frames, but rarely (if ever) use a whole box full of either (most of our frames are foundationless). ...but I need to pay more attention
> 
> deknow


The PF-100 frames (left) have a much larger gap between the sidebars than the PF-120 frames (right).


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Since using frames with End Bars that don't provide a gap somewhere in their length, I have seen no difference in how the bees behave, how they propolize the frames, or any other deleterious differences. Other than observing that frames don't rock back and forth, or slap together when I am moving Nucs and hives around. I haven't done any scientific tests to identify what the differences in these frames may be, good or bad, but they are easier to build.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

Sounds like something I may need to try at some point. They don't take much longer to build with a jointer, but I make larger bottom bars if they weren't tapered. Anyone had trouble squishing bees with the taper in them? I'm going to move my bees a little this next year, probably just strap them down to a trailer so I don't have to load/unload a bunch.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I'm not as proficient as you Joe but I bought some really straight, no knot 2x4's for $1.85 each and built a bunch of SBB's and covers. (I had to rummage through about 40 of them to find 10 decent ones). One you get a routine down, it doesn't take that long. You never fail to impress me with your ingenuity.


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## dannyidp (Jun 10, 2010)

I make my own top bars and bottom bars and buy the end bars it's not because i enjoy it.But when you are building 3 to 4 hundred at the time it does save money that can be used for other things such foundation ect. lol


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I tapered my first set of 400 end bars and haven't done so since. I went to 1 1/4" thick end bars and haven't tapered any of them. There's no noticeable difference between the two other than they don't slap around as much as the tapered bars will when moving hives.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

ctgolfer said:


> Sounds like allot of work for something you can buy for a buck or so. I doubt the electricity alone would be less then buying them, never-mind your time and cost of the 2x4's. I recently picked up big load of 2x6's 36" (433 of them) long for almost nothing and one thing I considered is making frames but they are so cheap to buy I cant see making them. Please tell me where I am wrong.


You're wrong because Mr. Clemmens wants to build his own frames for his own reasons.


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

woodguyrob said:


> You're wrong because Mr. Clemmens wants to build his own frames for his own reasons.


That is why I said "tell me where I am wrong" I just wanted to know the motivation for building them, I too would like to build some but it is hard to justify at that price.
Give me a break, I am trying to learn. I can see he "wants to build his own frames for his own reasons" I wanted to know the reasons.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

ctgolfer said:


> That is why I said "tell me where I am wrong" I just wanted to know the motivation for building them, I too would like to build some but it is hard to justify at that price.
> Give me a break, I am trying to learn. I can see he "wants to build his own frames for his own reasons" I wanted to know the reasons.


my apologies Ctgolfer if that was your intent. Your response read to me more like you disagreed / were critical of Mr. Clemens taking the time to build his own frames. 

I'm in the process of making some frames. Need about finish 12 frames to fill my deeps and a couple of shallow honey supers.


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

No problem woodguy. I just pick up allot of very dry 2x6x36" for almost free, if you need some I will share. I am making bottom boards right now, just wondering what to make next.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...getting ready to build some bottoms and tops here in mass...I'd love.to hear more.about almost free.2x6's.
deknow


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## quevernick (Feb 22, 2011)

I make my own boxes and frames from scrap 2x and disassembled pallets. I only have a table saw with a dado blade to make everything with. There are definately a couple of cuts that would be easier with different tools but I made do. I usually wait til I have enough lumber saved up to do 100+ frames. That way you can set up a cut and run through a bunch of them. 

I've simplified the frames I make since it makes them easier to make.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

DC Bees said:


> Here's pic of my frames.
> http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i418/DCBees/DSC01944.jpg


Looks real good.  Do you have design plans? How do you get the end bars to taper from the thicker part where the frames touch each other, to the thinner part where they lead toward the bottom bar?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

deknow said:


> ...I'd love.to hear more.about almost free.2x6's.


As would I . . . 

I tried the whole "pallet" experience . . . I'll never go back to that one . . .

Construction in my area is at a near stand still. Several lumber yards are going belly up as well. It's not quite as easy to find construction scraps as it used to be, but I'm open to suggestions . . .


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

Here you go deknow......http://hartford.craigslist.org/for/2820897658.html


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## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

Thanks,i believe i got the plans from here on beesource and for the end bars i use a 6" jointer/plainer with a stop block clamped on the end.I also made a sled for my table saw,i got the idea from another thread awhile back.


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

Good stuff here. I have found many times that 2x4's are always the worst lumber from the smallest trees. Whenever i want to build something that needs nicer wood I almost always find the best selection in 2x12 lumber - it comes from the bigger trees. When i look through the stack quite often I can find some nice clear pieces that will yeald nice quarter sawn wood once it is cut down to lesser widths. 

For me the grain structure of the board is more important than Kiln Dried. The grain dictates twist and warp etc not the moisture content. Kiln dried can look nice and straight but move all over the place as soon as you make a cut. Quartersawn may shrink as it dries but will stay much straighter. just my 2 cents.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

ctgolfer said:


> Here you go deknow......http://hartford.craigslist.org/for/2820897658.html


Nice!


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Thank you Summit25, good points to consider. I think the next time I shop for lumber I'll see if a larger board will be a better value. I have a sample of Wenge that is quarter-sawn, a very interesting figure - I can see that frame components would certainly be most strong and stable with the same.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

quevernick said:


> I only have a table saw with a dado blade to make everything with.


If you invest in another protractor and mount a fixture board between the two and then use a quick clamp on the fixture board you can just about eliminate the dato and be quicker and easier. Speed and safety are easier to attain when you make fixtures. Bee equipment is a good use for fixturing because when you are done you are not done. Eventually you will be making more.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Where do you find quarter sawn soft wood? I doubt that you will find it in a box store and that goes for hardwood also. You certainly are not going to find it in structural lumber.


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

French Lick Apiaries said:


> Having no gaps between the frame sidebars is the same configuration as HoneySuperCell and to a great extent PF-120 frames.
> 
> View attachment 1214
> View attachment 1215


The picture on the left looks like PermaComb, not HSC. If it is PC, then you will have to use some kind of spacing between each frame. As shown, they are completely touching each other on both sides. This means there is absolutely no bee space between frames. No bee space - no bees, no honey, no nuttin.


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## Summit25 (May 25, 2011)

Ace you have a touch of truth in what you say. It is true that no lumber company will quarter saw a log for structural lumber, there is lots of wast in quarter sawing. What they do is Flat/Plain Saw a log this maximizes yield. However the Key is that out of every log you will get lots of boards with goofy grain and one or two out of each log that will be quartersawn or very close. Just go find those few boards and you are all set. For instance there have been many times where I buy a nice 2x12 with the pith running right down the middle rip that board into two 2x6's and you will have two nearly perfectly quartersawn 2x6 boards. Quartersawn simply means that the grain is vertical and straight.








as to price i have found that there is not a significant premium on the larger dimensional lumber when you look at cost per board foot.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Yeah, that would be a lot of selecting because only 1 slab out of a tree is going to have the quarter sawn characteristic. By now most lumber is planted or farmed which yields straighter and faster growing trees. I think you guys are making too much out of straight grain for a 20 inch long stick. It is a beehive not a church. Anything you can find without many knots will do as far as I am concerned.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

Quartersawn (or pehaps we should say verticle grain) lumber is dimensionally more stable, but over the dimensions of a frame component it is insignificant,we are talking about the difference of 1/32"...maybe.
Quartersawn is no more inherently resistant to warp or twist than any other cut, that all has to do with the growth structure of the tree, either the log is twisted or it isn't
Quartersawn is far more resistant to splitting, all species cleave most readily perpendicular to the growth rings.
In some species(like douglas fir) quartersawn is stiffer, but in most it's about the same.

Anything you can do to get further away from the pith (like buying 2X12) is to you advantage, juvenile wood is the most prone to strength and distortion defects.


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## twintrades (Jul 17, 2011)

I made some of my own frames. I dont/ didnt taper my end bars. Is there a reason to taper the ends ?? Just seems like a unnecessary step to me. Or am i just missing somthing ? 

So if you would take off one side of my hive body you would have a "wall" of frames your looking at. No space between them.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I can't see any difference in the taper or straight end bars and I have both commercially made. the bees just propolise the taper and make it harder if anything. I also have tapered and straight ends on the top bars and don't see and difference to those either. Not worth the bother IMO.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

Hmm, I've never had them propolize the taper yet and I've cleaned off some extremely old frames I was trying to rehab (gave up on them).


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## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

I like the taper there is less area to crush bees when pushing frames together and less area to add propolis between the end bars.It may help with more bee space and air circulation in the hive, not much but maybe a little.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

For me, it's the other way around -- I like to return my frames to their places by aligning them above, then sliding them down, into place. With the tapered End Bars, the taper catches bees and then cuts/smashes/crushes them. Without the tapers they are simply pushed out of the way.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It must be my bees because I have had the frames more than an 1/8 inch away from each other and they have filled the gap with propolis. I almost believe it would be better if the end bars were the same size as the top bar and just spaced the frames with a shim. I can't say as I have ever crushed a bee pushing the frames together though.


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