# How can I over winter a spare queen?



## Tommy Tip Top (May 27, 2011)

I am about to combine two colonies. Rather than cull the weeker queen, can I somehow keep her over the winter? I have a small breeding mini-nuc - would this do?


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## wkinne (Jul 17, 2010)

My question is are you sure you want to keep a "weeker" queen?


Wayne


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I, too am curious about ways to keep a reserve queen.
I've a feral colony (my first bee colony) which I obtained doing a cutout in July. Most of the brood was damaged in the cutout.

It is struggling to recover, except for the last 10 days or so (of rain nearly every other day) there had been a drought ever since the cutout, and they have not built up at a rate that inspires confidence for winter survival. this is despite sugar syrup feeding and and placing Mega bee patty until I saw pollen coming in

I'm considering getting a queen from a strain reputedly excellent at building up (Russell Sunkist) to get the hive population and stores up. We may have a decent goldenrod flow.

If I do that, I want to keep the present queen. The colony had survived several years of upstate New York winters in an unheated, abandoned house wall. It had been untreated / unattended for several years and has very few mites. I want to breed from her and evaluate the other traits. But have to get them through winter first.

So I echo the OP's question:

How can I over winter a spare queen?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I'll echo wkinne's post. Why do you want to keep a spare, yet unproductive queen? Theoretically, if she is good enough to keep, she's good enough to overwinter in her original colony with. If she can't overwinter, she isn't worth keeping (genetics or not).

But, at least to answer your original question, without casting doubt on the "why" factor, I have three suggestions.

1. Observation hive. You can put the queen in an observation hive along with two frames of brood (doesn't have to be large brood patterns) with attending bees. Keep it indoors where you can observe it. Feed 2:1 sugar water and fresh pollen whenever they need it. I've gotten quite a few "project" queens through the winter this way. It's alot more work than its really worth, but if you are hell bent on saving this queen, it's an option.

2. Bank her in an overwintered queen bank. I don't have any experience with this, but Mr. Bush does. I'm not sure if it's on his website or not, but it's worth a shot. If you can't find it, pm him. From what I remember, he said you had to use a terrarium heater, keeping the temps at around 70º or the bees would ignore the queen. This is usually used to keep SEVERAL queens alive through the winter, not really one, but still an option.

3. Sell her. This is my favorite option. If you have an extra queen, offer her for sale either on here, or through your local beekeeping association. There are plenty of individuals who need spare/emergency queens in late summer or early fall (sometimes even late fall). Take the money you make from the queen (say, $20) and put it in the cover of your favorite book. When spring comes around, take the money and buy a new queen. Alot less work, and you end up with the same number of queens in the spring.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks for your advice. 

I don't think you understand that this mutt is special. I know that:

1. She does not do well at producing bees that draw and fill comb and build population during a drought with no flow.
a. I ripped the snot out of the brood while tearing open the wall she came from. She didn't start laying for a little while after the move, and it was three weeks before any brood hatched. In other words, just a few weeks ago, in the middle of a drought. ( I know I am new at this, but does that make her unproductive, or just normal?)

2. Her colony has survived about five winters with temps as low as -20F in an unheated, shaded structure.

3. Her colony has not neen treated during that time, but has extremely low Varroa count.

4. This makes her more valuable to me than bought-in queen. These are often superceded, and of unknown wintering ability.

So I don't want to sell her. I think a queen resulting from three generations of expert bee breeders selecting for bees to draw comb and build up fast for spring packages, then be ready with more for May/june sales, may be just the ticket to help this colony catch up while the 'wonder mutt' is held in a nuc. (Considering a Russell Sunkist)
Michael Bush has had (limited) success overwintering nucs in conditions similar to mine, but using resources I don't have available ( A bunch of other nucs to crowd together in a huddle, heaters, etc. In his book, he doesn't seem too excited about the results.

Both he and CC Miller overwintered colonies indoors, and had high mortality rates. Miller as I am, was in upstate New York. At present, this looks like the most viable option, though.

After things are built up and stores secure late in fall, I might consider selling the specialty queen, if anyone wants her.

Thanks again for your counsel. I am hoping to find a better alternative than overwintering indoors. If any occur to you please let me know.

Thanks!


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## timgoodin (Mar 10, 2007)

You could put her and a frame or so of brood into an observation hive and keep her indoors.

Tim


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

How do you know they were there for five winters? How do you know it was the SAME colony that has been there for five winters? How do you know that they have had extremely low varroa counts for that time period?

If you don't know any of those, you can't say she is more or less valuable than "a bought-in queen of unknown wintering ability."

Frankly, and I don't mean to be rude, but you don't know any of that (unless an entomologist was living in the house that you took it from). Bees will move into a cavity and sprawl. Unfortunately, every few years they die out. It could be from a number of things (low food stores, pesticides, diseases, varroa, swarming, cold weather, hot weather, what have you). The weird thing about bees is they like to nest in places that OTHER bees have already nested, but for some reason no longer nest at. This often means that when one colony dies, another will take the same place the next spring.

If the owners of the house are telling you they have been there for five years, I'd be doubtful. They may have had some bees in that space for five years (more than likely three or four out of the past five) but I doubt they were the SAME bees for the past five years. Mother nature rarely works that way. That's why colonies swarm (and in nature, quite often). But even if it was the same colony (and they superseded the queen once or twice in the past five years) there is no way you can know about varroa count. They may have a small varroa count now, but that could be because you ripped apart the hive, or maybe they recently swarmed or superceded (making a break in the brood cycle). All in all, there are too many variables that you don't know about.

So while you think you have an "extra-ordinary" mutt (and you might), you probably don't. That doesn't mean that she shouldn't be saved. What it does mean is it might not be worth a winter's full of work to save her. Just my two cents (maybe more than two, not in value, but in quantity).

But, that being what it is, if you are concerned that Mr. Bush hasn't had much success in overwintering nucs when he has had much more resources than you (and I would argue the otherway, but isn't the point), consider reading the thread "overwintering nucs." Mr. Palmer lives further north than you, and has GREAT success overwintering nucs. He usually makes up his in July, which puts you a month behind, but you can make up for it with a few extra frames of brood. You can either borrow them from another hive (if you have one) or buy them. Contact your local beekeeper's association if you are interested in purchasing frames of brood. There is usually a set price (in NC it's between $10-15 a frame, attendant bees attached and included).

Or, better yet, contact Russell's Apiaries. He is always looking for "special" stock. You could send him the queen, and perhaps he could give you a discount on a Sunkist to replace her with (I don't know how that works, or even if he gives a discount, you'd have to ask him about it). It would save the queen, and preserve her genetics (if Robert deems it necessary) while there is no muss or fuss on your end. If she truly is a "wonder mutt" you would be bettering the beekeeping community by giving it to Russell's. If anyone knew how to take care of her and best use her genetics, it would be him.

Generally though, I'm a "darwinian" type individual. I say try to let her overwinter on her own. If she is as special as you think she is, she should make it. If not, you didn't really lose much.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks, SpecialKayme, I think you've given me the solution. 
I didn't know one could could buy just one or two frames of brood comb. (The lack of which is my root concern).
I think 4 or so drawn combs of brood will catch things up well., and resources can go to stores adn not drawing comb.

The neighbor whose house I got them from has been to the place more often than weekly during this time. She is a person fascinated by the bees, and enjoyed sitting and watching them come and go, and reported there was never a day she observed no bees during warm weather. (Please refrain from insulting her competence to report what she sees.)

You are right, of course. Just because I didn't find mites in the ether jar when they were collected doesn't mean that there weren't any, any more than activity at the entrance every week proves that it is the same colony occupying the hive. Nor is the fact that the sun has been coming up daily all year proof that it will tomorrow 

You ARE missing a very substantial point. even if all you have said is proved true, and the queen has no value to any one else, she is valuable to me.

Simply because one WANTS to do a thing that doesn't harm others is reason enough to do it...even if no one else finds value in it.

Thanks you very, very much for your help. There is a sideliner that sells packages not far from here and i will see if he'll sell me some frames.

Thanks again.I appreciate your help


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Beregondo said:


> Thanks, SpecialKayme, I think you've given me the solution.
> I didn't know one could could buy just one or two frames of brood comb. (The lack of which is my root concern).


I'm glad you found the answer. If the guy that sells packages doesn't have any frames for sale, keep asking around. It isn't too late for that.



Beregondo said:


> (Please refrain from insulting her competence to report what she sees.)


Calm down. My point was, and still is, that if she isn't an entomologist, she can't tell you that it was the same colony that occupied that wall for five years. I can't even tell you if it was the same colony. I doubt Dr. Ambrose could tell you that. I have no doubt that she observed bees moving in and out for the past five years if that's what she said. But can you tell me that she saw the SAME colony over the past five years? Is it possible for her not to notice that the hive wasn't making activity until April 15th? Is it possible that the old hive died out over the winter, and a new swarm moved in on that date? From her point of view, it is the same hive. From a genetic stand point, it isn't. 

Beekeepers, mostly new, find a hive in a wall and think they have found the holy grail of beekeeping: a colony that has survived years without man's interference and has defied all the odds by staying alive. Maybe you have. I doubt it. Stay open to the possibility that it's an amazing queen with superb genetics, but realize that it probably isn't.



Beregondo said:


> Nor is the fact that the sun has been coming up daily all year proof that it will tomorrow


No, but knowledge of astronomy and physics, along with a little statistics will prove that the sun is MORE LIKELY to come up tomorrow. Just like a little bit of knowledge of entomology, along with a little statistics will tell you that the hive you found MOST LIKELY has not occupied that wall for five years straight. I'm just going with the science and the numbers. Again, maybe they have, but you need to realize the probability that they probably haven't.



Beregondo said:


> You ARE missing a very substantial point. even if all you have said is proved true, and the queen has no value to any one else, she is valuable to me.


I'm not missing your point. You made it loud and clear. You want to save that queen, regardless of her potential. I'm not stopping you. 

That doesn't speak to the economics behind it all. The resources you spend in trying to save a queen that may be (and probably isn't) worth saving outweighs the reward that you are likely to benefit from it. What are you going to do with her if you save her? Graft from her? Add her drones to the genetic pool? If you want to spend the time, money, and resources saving the queen, I'm actually all for it. But sometimes you have to take your losses up front.

If you were really interested in saving the queen and the colony, and you knew they were there for the past five years straight, maybe it would have been better to wait on removing them till next spring. But hindsight is always 20/20, or maybe the colony couldn't wait till spring. 

Better yet, if you really do want to save her, ship her to someone that needs a queen. Trying to hold on to her when you don't have the hive numbers to take care of her puts her life in jeopardy. If her genetics really are that special, you can't afford to risk it.

Good luck with the little lady. Keep us posted. If there is anything I can do to help you, don't hesitate to ask.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Beregondo said:


> 2. Her colony has survived about five winters with temps as low as -20F in an unheated, shaded structure.
> 
> 3. Her colony has not neen treated during that time, but has extremely low Varroa count.
> 
> ...


As to number two: No, it hasn't. Her mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's Great, Great, Great, Great, Great Grand daughter is what you have. And in all likelyhood, more generations than that.

As to number three: the low mite counts are due to swarming. In my opinion you have a queen whose colonies swarm alot, thereby keeping mite counts low.

As to four: assumptions don't make it so.

Just from a cost/benefit pov, keeping a queen alive, unless established in a nuc set up over another hive or like Mike Palmers, will cost more than the cost of a queen in the Spring. IMO


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

well as far as the same queen being in the same hive year after year is not correct.....the old queen leaves to a new location before her offspring queen hatches the following spring the hive could have been there for 5 years but with a new queen every year if it died over the winter a spring swarm moves rite in and takes over....sorry about the bad news but its true..the best thing is to remove the weak laying queen and let them re-queen there self.an old swarm queen will have less of a chance to make the next winter alot of the time after the swarm they supersede her anyways.good luck


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Beregondo said:


> Thanks, SpecialKayme, I think you've given me the solution.
> I didn't know one could could buy just one or two frames of brood comb. (The lack of which is my root concern).
> I think 4 or so drawn combs of brood will catch things up well., and resources can go to stores adn not drawing comb.
> 
> ...


I think your effort is admirable! (but I am a newbie and not the brightest crayon in the box.)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

For that you quote the hole Post?


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

(I've got a fine hole post here.. all I need is a post hole now)

Hello, Mark.
Sorry I wasn't able to get Geneva for the meeting. I had hoped to meet you.

Please understand, that when I say, "her colony" it is intended with the meaning "the colony of which she is a part" rather than one she is matriarch of. Kind of like America is "my country" even though I come form it and not the other way 'round.

Perhaps she is not descended from the original colony. And swarming would account for a low mite count.
And I expect the colony swarmed many times, judging from number (and apparent age) of empty queen cups in the cavity.
What causes the bees in the original hive to certainly die after swarming? I'd like to learn.
It appeared to be a very prosperous location form the length of the combs in the wall.

As to four, it isn't assumptions that make it so. It's my choice to value it that makes it valuable. wanting a thing is enough to make it valuable, regardless of economics. Big boats, corvettes, and trophy wives are good examples of that. I guess my tastes run much less expensively and are less driven by peer pressure 
Some were apparently quite old, as well...really hard and black in places.

Some appear to think that I believe this little bug has great economic value or 'the holy grail of beekeeping' I doubt it has any value to anyone other than myself.
I do value what appears to be a line that appears to have survived a few generations on natural comb, from its size, and likely wild as not many local beeks are bothering with small cell, from what understand. 

I think it is worthwhile to evaluate such a line next year to see if it is productive; and that there is a great deal to be learned about raising and keeping bees by tackling challenges.

If anyone knows of active bee clubs near Elmira, I'd be interested in finding them. A friend and I currently travel a bit, to Ithaca and a closer one would be convenient. (Not that the Finger Lakes Bee Assn bunch aren't nice folks. they're great).


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

Firstly, once you put them in a hive they are no longer feral, and secondly, I would bet she is not even related to the bees that were there 3 years ago much less 5. when a colony dies out, it leaves a ready built nest for the next colony that swarms in the area. There is no better swarm catcher than an abandon hive, that's why we all put old brood comb in our swarm traps. I have had homeowners tell me a colony has been there for 20 years, that don't make it so. They don't look often enough to know when one colony dies out and another moves in. 

But, what my post is really about is what is the longest time anyone has ever banked a queen, and had it be productive afterward?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 

Will I see you in Syracuse in November?

I have no idea whether anyone has put much e3ffort into banking a queen overwinter. It is so much easier to winter a queen in it's colony.

Maybe you are using the word "bank" in a way other than what most would. Putting it aside, in storage. since queens depend on workers to feed and tend to its needs, I don't know how you would do it other than in a colony.

I hope you have better luck w/ others.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Perhaps Syracuse in November...other commitments allowing


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## honeybees (Oct 19, 2009)

here is my two cents, is it possible to have two queens in the same hive separated by an excluder to keep the queens apart but yet have enough bees to have them survive the winter


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>is it possible to have two queens in the same hive separated by an excluder to keep the queens apart but yet have enough bees to have them survive the winter 

Unless you have very mild winters, no.


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