# mini mating nuc frames



## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

I just put mine above the inner cover of a colony I'm combining them with. Usually not much brood left, but they take care of it until the frames are empty. Then store them for next year..


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## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

Cool Brandy I was at a stand point, either put them on top of the honey or on the bottom of the stack, cuz I dont want her to lay in them , and I don`t want them to fill them with honey. And how do you store them for next year ?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Pete


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Freeze for 24 hr, and put back in the nuc. Store out side no heated buildings.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

I just box them up after they've cleaned them out, moved any honey, although I like to leave some of the capped honey in the mini's for next years start. Then store in unheated trailer or equipment "garage" etc.. Our winters pretty much take care of the freezing part...


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I used to make them so they fit 30 to a medium Lang' (it was modified with 2 inside rails to hold 3 rows of 10 mini-nuc frames). I'd store them on the hive, or bag them with para-dichloro-benzine crystals. I no longer use them due to poor performance of colonies contained in such small boxes. 

FWIW, and at risk of going off-topic, the extra equipment is a lot of investment for 2 months' use, and poses a maintenance and storage problem, and they are lot of extra work. 3- or 4-frame mediums work much better, so now I mostly use 1/4" plywood hive partitions in standard 6 5/8 deep boxes with vertical slots to hold the partitions. I make up divided SBB's and narrow inner covers. It' just a whole lot less effort, and the SBB's work on any arrangement, the inner covers store neatly away and the wax moths don't attack them. Better results and less work - it's a no-brainer, use medium nucs, not mini-nucs.

Standard frames are much easier to interchange and grow with. No mini nuc- to Langstroth adapter boards, less losses to swarming, less total work during the busy season. I see mini- and baby nucs as a bad idea. You'd have to be a large-scale breeder with a small yard and figure them in to your operation to justify the additional work. I am getting to that exact description, but I won't be using mini's.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Sorry charlie, but I didn't think it was a discussion on what's the best but rather what to do?? The mini's are perfect for those with just a few hives, wanting a few queens, without needing to do much planing in advance. A cupful of bees and they're off to the races. 

No doubt we all have our favorite sizes based on the resources in the apiary. Velberts proven you can get good queens in his mini's, no doubt others as well, me included.


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## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

I see your point charlie, it would be nice to have all the equipment the same size to move frames wherever needed.But i was making 5 frame nucs for sale, and drawn frames were flying out of here 5 at a time. I didn`t have a lot of med frames drawn to make nucs just for getting a queen mated. So I started the 1/2 size frame mini`s last year as a learning tool. I would graft and stock the nucs, then sell the queens as soon as someone wanted one. Never got on a schedual of load then sell ,so some queens stayed in the nuc till I sold her or used her. Needless to say she run out of room , so I made supers for them, they filled up too, some are 4 some are 5 boxes high ( Dcoates style) I have very good mating % with them. Pull brood out and start another one. I think they are pretty neat to see the workings in miniature . Poor performance would fall on the queens. I had 2 5 over 5 mini`s left over last year so I overwintered them with sugar on top,both made it. Like you said, they are more work,gotta keep an eye on them. I`ll try to overwinter 10 this year so I can make early nucs with the queens, before I graft. I don`t sell a lot but the word is out now. Good tip Brandy, over the inner cover should empty them out for storage,,,,,,,,,,,Pete


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm really not trying to tick anybody off, Brandy.

I have not seen mini mating nuc's with bees in them for sale, and I don't know a price for them. The 5 frames of drawn comb is a big part of why the price of a nuc is $125 to $150 more than the price of a queen. I doubt I'd pay much for one - it's not worth any more than the queen that's in it to me.

As a learning tool, definitely try them. I'm not that big yet - I need high quality queens for my own use, so I'm raising them in double/triple nuc's. I'm trying to get my apiary up to 2,000 colonies in January. Once I'm above 1,200 strong colonies, I may start playing with mini's again if MY customer list for queens increases, but the extra time I get from using mediums arranged 3 x 3-frame mating, then 2 x 4-frames with a 2-sided feeder for a hive partition in a 10-frame medium box won't quite allow for time and expense of making, drawing, or storing the mini-frames. I tried them once, but it was not worth the effort. I needed the full-size nuc's right after that anyways, so they only added more expense, extra steps, a storage problem, and even fewer over-wintered queens than if I'd given them bigger nuc's.

I'll likely use the 4-way "queen castle" boxes if I go back to mini's at all - that is a small increase in efficiency over the 3 x 3's I use. I currently have slotted boxes that can use 3 x 3 frames, 2 x 4 frames with feeders, or 2 x 5 frame nuc' arrangements. Compared to this setup, mini's are a major pain, take up more time, and give inferior results that may or may not render more queens on less resources, never yet even close the 25% increase in GOOD queens (mated & solid laying pattern) that 4 mini's promise over the 3 x 3-frame standard box arrangement.

True, Velbert has gotten them to make high-quality queens, as have several others, but Velbert is a good ol' boy who has been in this game longer than most of us. He knows his game, and I'm sure he worked at mini's a while. Many experienced breeders will use mini's because they are already full-time beekeepers anyways, and have long waiting lists of queen customers, so they need to make lots of queens fast. 

Us smaller-scale beek's usually prefer quality, not quantity. As we get good at mini's, we can indeed make more queens in a season. Until we start making more HIGH-QUALITY queens, should we? As a learning tool, yes. As a production tool, no. After the quality issue is tackled, and you are indeed getting a better return (especially on a short, Northern season) yes.

An English fellow has a plan for folding frames - useful as standard (British National) or 1/2 frame for mini mating nuc's. I have not tried them yet. Therein may be a solution to getting mini's to work better, but I have not yet looked into that setup. I'm building a mobile honey room, some new wood working machines, a power system, that attendant worker bee dispenser that the Glenns invented, the CO2 system for a high-volume I.I. setup, mead barrels, and other equipment I figure to be more profitable than a bunch of mini's. All my boxes have the partition slots, so it's not a priority.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Just like all things in beekeeping we all find the tools that work the best for our own needs and resources. Lot's of choices, lot's of situations and variables where each technique has it's place. 

Good luck oldiron


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## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

To be clear charlie, I have the mini`s in addition to my 5 frame nuc operation just for queen sales,I don`t sell mini`s. I made about 10 of those folding frames ( Dave Cushman) they are still in my hives. They were good for getting them drawn out then put them in a mini, problem is that they have to be a little bit longer when folded than half frame due to the lug. Neat idea at the time, I also made single frames same size to fill out the 5 frames 2 folded is 4 frame space . Then I had to make boxes to fit them . after seeing MP half frames and Laurie`s great pictures it clicked. I made a bunch of half frames and boxes to fit. I made nuc boxes to fit 13 frames with supers of 13 frames, put swarms in them and they pulled all the comb I need to start the minis going I call them frame builders they are 3 boxes high,( I need a mini extractor top box is full of honey, ha ) 39 frames each full of brood and stores. I`m going to try to take 3 of these set ups through the winter, I did 1 last winter and it was strong in the spring, it was just 2 boxes high.So the queen making part (mini`s) and the full size 5 frame med nucs are separate from each other, unless I need a queen for the 5 frame full nucs. This hobby is finally paying for itself. If I can only figure out a system that flows smooth, I`m working on that.I pulled around 600 lb honey this year off the nucs (not mini`s) and 2 full hives I wasn`t trying to make honey, I needed the open comb for more brood. If only I had the space to set up an operation,and more equipment, I can see this grow,not to mention how much fun I am having. And as for queen castles I have a few,but I find it better to grow the full nucs in their own boxes on their own stands rather then moving 2 or 3 frames to a nuc and loosing the foragers, and the queens know which hole to come back to. When that nuc gets 2 boxes high I call the next customer on the list, they get their 5 frames and I give the 2nd box a graft, reset. I wish you lived closer to me so I can see someone else do this dance Thanx for the reply,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Pete


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

kilocharlie said:


> I'm really not trying to tick anybody off, Brandy.
> 
> I'm not that big yet - I need high quality queens for my own use, so I'm raising them in double/triple nuc's. I'm trying to get my apiary up to 2,000 colonies in January.


Charlie - I am not trying to tick you off either and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I about busted a gut laughing when I read this. 

And I know exactly what you mean when you say big yet.... but I still blew coca-cola thru my nose when I read this and still kept laughing with that hurting. 

Ya'll all keep discussing and I'll keep reading. Seeing the different viewpoints and techniques folks are trying is really informative and I appreciate it.


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

I use half-sized medium frames for my mating nucs. After I've stopped grafting for the season and have sold queens from the mating nucs, I put the queenless brood & bees into supers with center dividers. I then put them on nucs I plan to over winter, and single bodied hives to help bolster their size going into the fall. As brood rearing commences in the spring, I can take the half-sized frames, with brood, to put back in the mating nucs. When I do this I seem to have less trouble with the newly made nucs absconding, compared with using a scoop full of nurse bees. This procedure also solves the winter storage problem.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Half- sized frames make more sense than "baby" or "mini" frames (30 to a box size) and associated equipment. Lauri makes a fantastic case for their use, as does Michael Palmer. I'd never argue against either of them.

Pat - sorry about the Coca-Cola incident. Allow me to clarify...I meant trying to get 2,000 colonies in a January (not necessarily this coming January) ready to incorporate. I need to have capital to bring to the table as a partner in my own corporation.

The fastest way to accomplish that is to breed for high quality queens to populate my apiary, catch swarms, buy bees from excellent sources like MP, Kirk Webster, Adam F, Sue Cobey, Lauri, and others. 

Maximizing efficiency is no where near as important, as long as efficiency is reasonable. Other factors will play in to the equation. Great numbers of poor quality colonies headed by poor-performing queens aren't worth nearly as much as good numbers of increasers with high-quality queens.

Back when I tried the mini's, I also even tried honey-in-the comb frames for mini's, as these were drawn out rapidly by HITC production colonies early in the spring. The convincing part was at the end of the year - all the bees started in 5- frame nucs were much heavier, with enough honey, and some even made splits. Not one of the mini colonies did that. I realized that I should have committed the wood for all that extra equipment into medium boxes with divider slots. I'd have been way ahead.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

I just winter bees in my mini nuc's

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vlwbeequeens/178484282243201


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## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

Thanks Velbert for chiming in. I clicked on your FB and got all excited. I planned on sending 10 minis into winter but 3 people needed queens so I have 7, 2 stories, fingers crossed.My boxes are 3/8 thick, I see yours are 3/4s, I hope that is not a detriment to me . I made up some shim rims so I can put sugar on top this month. There is a guy in my area (about 20 miles away) that use to breed queens, Silverbacks he called them. I stopped in to meet him and learn how to do this. He had mabe 40 or so five framers all lined up, all empty but one, I was grafting at the time, I would have givin him some of my xtras, but talking to the old guy I mentioned that I overwintered 2 minis that winter ( we had that arctic vortex stuff that winter), he said he didn`t believe me, I said" I am not a liar".He said he still don`t believe me. That was the end of that conversation. Then he calls and asked for a queen, go figure. I plan on taking one of the ones that make it this year in February and drop it off on his doorstep. That bothered me. Any dog that is too old to learn new tricks has always been too old to learn new tricks. How do you keep them from swarming ? I like your feeder but do they drown much ? Where did the little beetle traps come from ? Thanx,,,,,,,,,,,Pete


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

oldiron56 said:


> Those that use mini`s at the end of the season what do you do with the frames of brood and bees left over?


We made boxes to hold the minis. Leave a queen with them. Stack em up and over winter them. Makes for a nice beginning the next year.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi Pete

I have over wintered mini nuc's in singles doubles and triples for the past 12 years or so.

Some bees do drown, from just 5 or 10 bees to maybe 40 or 50. I designed them to place another board in the groove to form a 3/8 trough but feeding syrup there is not much ventilation and it will turn black with a mold look. So I started leaving them out

http://beetlejail.com/product-category/in-hive-small-hive-beetle-traps/


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## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

Thanx for the link on the jail, I have small ones for the minis, the clear ones with the black tops, what a mess they are, gotta spread the frames to get them in, when you push the rim down flat so beetles can`t hide under it , the frames have to spread farther, not to mention spilling it everywhere.I feed with a jar through a hole in the lid on the minis, ( I call 1/2 frames 'minies' )but my 5 frame full size have feed boxes like yours. Thanx,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Pete


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Pete I for got to answer your questions about swarming.

I have a few swarm on me about 15 to 20 this past year and several of them were because it was about a week after pulling queens before I had a rip queen cell to put in, i must have missed knocking off EM Q cell, when I placed ripe queen cell if they we extra strong some would swarm.


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## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

I have no schedual that I work off of, like sales dates. I sell them when I see her laying good and someone needs one. Until I have a sale I have to keep them in their boxes , and you know how that goes, she runs out of comb to lay in ,so I add a box, and that seems to help.I goofed, I made most of the minis 4 frame instead of 5. I need to get on a program, like have my mating nucs in batches, sell them on a certain date and graft 9 days before that date. As it is some of the nucs go without a queen till I do graft. When I go to place the cells ,some have E queens already running on the comb, I end up with more cells than I can use, so I put 2 cells in. This gotta get easier at some point ,,,,,,,,,,,Pete


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

My first 1/2 length frame mn were 5 frames then I went to 4 frames I like them better because they set just perfect on a block and I can use a 1 piece top with out having any seams from using a 2 piece top.


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## vernonpurcell (Jun 1, 2014)

kilocharlie said:


> Half- sized frames make more sense than "baby" or "mini" frames (30 to a box size) and associated equipment. Lauri makes a fantastic case for their use, as does Michael Palmer. I'd never argue against either of them.
> 
> Pat - sorry about the Coca-Cola incident. Allow me to clarify...I meant trying to get 2,000 colonies in a January (not necessarily this coming January) ready to incorporate. I need to have capital to bring to the table as a partner in my own corporation.
> 
> ...


How many colonies do you have as of now?


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Velbert - When using those 4 or 5 frame mini's, do ya'll really just put like a coffee cup scoop of bees in there? That seems like not many bees. Especially if some head back home to the original hive. 

Was trying to over winter in my double stacked 10 frame mini's (can be split into two 5 frame mini's) but they swarmed and the new queen failed. So going to freeze the frames this weekend and then store in refrig.

Thanks everyone for the info., really good stuff.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

We just use about 2 soup can scoops (actually we have that can affixed to a broom handle). We soak the shaken bees with water and dump them into a wheelbarrow. Then we just go down the line filling the queen rearing castles. 
Our minis always have an amount of brood in them when we start.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Marshmasterpat-I have used 1- cup bees in the bee works mini nuc it works but a 1 1\2 cups I liked better. 

On the 4 frame 1/2 length medium.
I use 3 cups bees.

I will shake bees and run them through a queen excluder keeping out drones and any queen.

I will leave them in my bulk bee container for about 3 days after I have run them through queen excluder.
feeding them all they can take up and when you make up mn there producing wax and their ready to build comb.

I place in queen ripe queen cell and level closed up till the 4th day and you need to be able to have feed on them during the 4 days they are confinement 

I always move to another yard don't place in same yard where I collected bees. And only place them in late evening right at dark this helps on drifting but they still drift some.

Now I have them over wintered, I dont have to shake bees I just go through them and divide with some brood usually 2 frames with brood and bees.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Wintered Mini Nuc feeding on dry sugar placed on top just above cluster notice the condensation, this enables bees to take up the sugar also helps with keeping the nuc a little dryer.


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