# Crashing Hives!



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Where are the reports of hives crashing from Varroa?

Usually, by this time each year, we have lots of posts that reflect serious infestations.

Hmmmm


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Dave

I noticed the same thing
last year lots of folks were freakin out by now
I'm doing my first organized sticky board test of the summer now
will post results tomorrow
everything "appears" to be fine

Dave


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I haven't seen many mites at all this year. One here and there, nothing to be alarmed about though.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>Hmmmm . . .

I'll say again, hmmmmmmm.

Maybe "CCD" is a GOOD THING


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

HAPPY DAYS! are here again!!! The bees took off with the mites and CCD and died. They really LOVE us.. they really LOVE us!! beekeepers; well;......... maybe........ time will tell.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Bah. It's not even the middle of July. Keep your pants on Dave, wait till mid-August...


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Heck, Dave was seeing mites where others could not see them. Check out the picture down in the photo forum. Dave see's lots of mites as long as he's looking at someone elses hives....  (And of course for all those very sensitive types who "read" into everything....as George said..."keep your pants on". I'm only joking....


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

BjornBee . . .

Please "check out the picture" and tell ME how many mites I report seeing.

Am I blind?

I love looking for mites (w/ my pants on or off ).


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Dave W said:


> BjornBee . . .
> I love looking for mites (w/ my pants on or off ).


TMI! TMI! TMI!


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

well, I can testify that the mites haven't all "CCD'ed" outta here
just finished 3 day sticky board tests on my 4 "strong" hives
I can't count mites like Dave W can but I'd guess they have about a hundred mites each over 3 days.
it's only mid summer, this is a little worrisome
I'll have to ponder my next move

Dave


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Just got finish with my first of three treatments yesterday.
Knocking down between 50-100 mites per hive of the 1700 hives. Want to be clean by middle of aug so will be ready for a aggressive pollen feeding campaige by the end of aug. But, may have to go back if needed in sept or oct if needed.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

what kind of treatment Keith?


Dave


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

what kind of treatment Keith?


There are ten different ones that I use, depending on the heat/cold (wheather) and how much brood is on the bees and the time window in which I want them clean by.

the method I used yesterday is the fastest by far 1700 hives in one day, but, my not be the most approved method.

Did that sound like a politician answering your question.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

>> Did that sound like a politician answering your question. 

no, it sounded like a commercial beek protecting his livelihood
a politician would have lied to me

Dave


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*There are a number of possible causes...*

I worry about mites making a jump to another from the Apis group and wish in vain they would jump to Vespa, while the solitary bees should be safe, certain bumblebees may not be. 

I did not see any mites at all in the drone brood, but i did not open all drone brood, so it is merely a random sample, but where they were last year they are not this year. There may well be a disease that has reduced numbers, since they are not native, there may well be a disease from that group that jumped onto the mites and their own lack of resistance to a new disorder. Since these mites are very adaptable they may well return with amazing speed next season or the season afterwards. 

If they have found a new host in ants or wasps then i wish them well, but that is a huge stretch...ya just can't fault a person for wishing. If the mites wait until August up here to fill drone brood for a population jump they are liable to find themselves without long term feeding in drone combs, things end rather quick up here for the drones. I have notice a great many drones this year and unlike last year adult drones have not been thrown out as they were and the brood dragged out with every dip in the temperature as buildup went on.

Last year i saw mites, this year i see none, that is as simple as it gets and unless you are in my bees, you don't see them either, it is simple as that. If you actually look at my bees then you can say yea or nay. Some people see ghosts in photos, i don't and that is what a photo can tell, esspecially digital.

Chrissy Shaw


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>Knocking down between 50-100 mites per hive . . .

If this treatment only "knocked down" 50-100 mites,
1) the treatment did not provide an effective "kill", or
2) there were not enough mites to warrant treatment.

What were your PRE-treatment count?


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

*Mite outlined in yellow*



BjornBee said:


> Heck, Dave was seeing mites where others could not see them. Check out the picture down in the photo forum. Dave see's lots of mites as long as he's looking at someone elses hives....  (And of course for all those very sensitive types who "read" into everything....as George said..."keep your pants on". I'm only joking....


reference:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=249376#post249376


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Dave wrote, 
>If this treatment only "knocked down" 50-100 mites,
>1) the treatment did not provide an effective "kill", or
>2) there were not enough mites to warrant treatment.

>What were your PRE-treatment count?

Dave, Pre-treatment was 50-100

We dont like to see any more mites than that at this time of year.

There were not enough mites to warrant treatment? Well Dave, do your bees look like this in Jan.

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_1432.jpg

I can run an eight frame hive into the almonds for $150, how many frames do you see?? 24/8=3 x 150 = $$$$$


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Nice pics Keith, how many hives were in your holding yard......they went on just about like forever.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Peggjam,

There's about 800 hives at that spot. What it is , is an old gravel mine. I spread the bee on the side of the road for about a mile, given patches of breaks a long the way.

I like this set up for pollen feeding, run the truck down the center of the road and have hives on either side .

I'm getting old 42  I think this is a young mans job.

I always said... I would marry a rich woman and buy her anything SHE could afford.

Well, as you can see, I'm married, my plan went to hel....


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

How many 42's are we upto here? Or is everyone 42. You should've stuck to the plan...........

800 hives is alot of hives, any problems with robbing?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Peggjam wrote,
800 hives is alot of hives, any problems with robbing

ah...... did I leave out that I have about 3 or 4 yards like that.

I don't start stock piling till about mid oct with mine, then the out -of-state bees start showing up.

Robbing, it's not bad, we try not to feed syrup when they're that size. I feed pollen sub , starting at six a.m. and try to get out of the yard by two.

Ah heck.... it's only couple thousand hives per man, whats the big deal.
Did I mention this is a young man's job. Am, I old enough to cry old.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Just got finish with my first of three treatments yesterday.
> Knocking down between 50-100 mites per hive of the 1700 hives. Want to be clean by middle of aug so will be ready for a aggressive pollen feeding campaige by the end of aug. But, may have to go back if needed in sept or oct if needed.


"Knocking down between 50-100 mites per hive" does not sound like a statement about pre-treatment count. "Knocking down" implies to me a "kill" made by the treatment. If your pre-treatment (natural) counts were between 50 and 100, it sounds to me you needed to treat.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Bah. It's not even the middle of July. 
> Keep your pants on Dave, wait till mid-August...

I agree with George.
Some people have yet to even do a single drop-test,
so how would they know what the counts are?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Dave wrote,
>If your pre-treatment (natural) counts were between 50 and 100, it sounds to me you needed to treat

Dave, I dont bother with natural drop. What I do is slip a sticky board in, put a 8 ga load of mitcide in, come back in the morning, and count. Been doing this way for ten plus years.Never, have I ever had a wipe out due to mites. But, then it's not good to say NEVER say NEVER.

But also have a time line to go by, that is, I dont like treating for mite while I am feeding pollen. Another old timer did that and crossed the two a little bit and you could imiage what happen.

All I know is, what has worked for me for years, no one has ever heard me complain about my bees looking poor.

I just do what works and has a good long track record of working, how does the saying go " if it aint broke don't fix it".


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

My theory is that every hive that dies from varroa or tracheal mites this summer is now being attributed to CCD. I've already heard several small hobbiests, keeping only a few hives claming that their hive "collapsed from a mystery plague". The only mystery in these cases is why the people never looked for varroa or tracheal mites. It's almost as though people like CCD because it absolves them of their bad keeping practices ("they collapsed...its not my fault!")


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Aspera,

Well said


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## tony350i (Jul 29, 2005)

Hello Keith,

The pics off your bees in January look very impressive,
How do you go about swarm control?

Regards Tony


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Tony wrote,
How do you go about swarm control?

Hi there Tony,

We do alot of shaking, alot. From march-- end of April.

Here's a pic of a 1000 pound load of bulk bees in march for a large Queen outfit to restock there mating nucs.

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_1502.jpg

These cages I made my self, I wanted something with a lot of air flow and light weight and could hold three deep frames inside.

Tony, with all the bees in Calif at that time (out-of-staters) many are looking to fill up thier boxes before they head back for home.
Keith


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

That's alot o'bees. How well do they ship?


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Dave W said:


> Where are the reports of hives crashing from Varroa?
> 
> Usually, by this time each year, we have lots of posts that reflect serious infestations.
> 
> Hmmmm



There ya go Dave! 

Ask and you shall receive. The 2007 ‘hive crashing’ thread is a hit, beekeepers counting mites, mites abound in beekeepers hives across the USA, the sky is falling once again! 

Best Wishes,

Joe Waggle,

…who has ’never’ done a mite count, and finding that what has worked for thousands of years; ‘breed from your best performers’, still works today, and remarkably well in place of counting mites..

(edit was to put another smiley face in there)


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

>How well do they ship?

Jim, they ship ok this way, most are within 200 mile radius. We put couple frames of honey in so they will keep for a day or two.

Here's a closer pick. Smoke--up box in foreground and bulk cages in background.

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_0805.jpg


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Hi guys,
I have to tell someone. I just did a 3 day natural mite drop on 12 hives and could not find 1 mite. This was a stickboard test. I've been hearing similar stories this year.

dickm


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I've seen a few on the bees, but nothing major. Going to have the hives inspected on Monday, so we shall see......


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## Beemeister (Jun 26, 2006)

Dick, 

To what do you attribute your success?


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>"Why success?"<<< 

I started over after losing all my bees last winter. I think the packages were free of mites. I don't know what the package guy was using. I'm keeping my pants on until Aug. It suddenly occured to me that I shouldn't bring in any splits from another yard, something I was contemplating.

dickm


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

dickm . . .

Who's the "package guy"?


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

The bees actually came from Wilbanks, in Ga.They are great bees. I'll average 2 supers from packages in the same year.

dickm


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Many keepers here on the left Coast make up increase this way.

Take a bulk cage of bees ( 35 pounds) , treat with a tab, let sit over night. Then in the morning dump four pounds in the hive with a new Queen.

I know this is old news to some, but there might be some rookies that haven't try this method yet.

It's a quick way to get a FRESH start. Even if they dont have 25 years of beekeeping.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

What's a tab?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

> What's a tab?

Jim, those bulk cages of mine hold three deep frames. There is a reason for this. A tab is a touge depresser soak 1/2 in miticide, using a thumb tack, put the tab at the bottom of the middle frame applying the dry end of the tab to the bottom bar of the frame..

Let the miticide work over night, then in the morning you have 35 pounds of fresh clean bees and a QUEEN that has NOT been expose to any chems.

P.S Jim, any keeper with 25 years would know this trick


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Only if I was using mite treatments, which I don't, and delt with more than 500 hives, which I also don't......


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

> delt with more than 500 hives, which I also don't

Jim, you must bee smarter than the rest of us. 

somehow this 25 years of keeping mean to some that a keeper perfect, dont know how that all got started.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> > delt with more than 500 hives, which I also don't
> 
> Jim, you must bee smarter than the rest of us.
> 
> somehow this 25 years of keeping mean to some that a keeper perfect, dont know how that all got started.


I think we have all made our share of mistakes during our beekeeping careers, it's whether we learn that makes us wiser. I've been keeping or helping with bees since I was knee high to a tall cow. I watched the good days premites, when all we had to worry about was getting through the winter, to the mite invasion, when I lost all the hives I had to mites. From there it has been a rebuilding and rethinking process that has taken 20 years, and continues today. I still don't know what i'm doing, but i'm having fun doing it. No, i'm not smarter than anyone else, I just know that if you can't keep 150 hives alive, ya arn't going to keep 500 alive either, so until that happens, i'll stick to my reduced numbers, for now anyway.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

>I still don't know what i'm doing, 

Hey, join the club.


Jim, in this world of beekeeping,

You don't have to out run the bear, you just have to out run the slowest guy in the camp.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Dave W said:


> Where are the reports of hives crashing from Varroa?
> 
> Usually, by this time each year, we have lots of posts that reflect serious infestations.
> 
> Hmmmm


OK Dave. You started this thread back in early July. At the time my advice was "It's early, keep your pants on." Well it's now early October. What is the consensus? Are mites causing the the same problems this fall that they have in the past? 3 years ago when I started beekeeping, hives were crashing left and right from PMS all over the country. I lost 19 out of 26 hives to mites that first winter. Some of my loss was no doubt attributable to inexperience, but hey- mites is mites. I didn't lose any hives last winter. This year.. 4-5 of my hives are light and I'm feeding them, but the rest look good.. none of them are crashing. Mite loads are seemingly low.

Are we seeing a real decline in the virulence and proclivity of mites, or is this just a cyclic thing?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Great question George. It's interesting because this past Tuesday our inspector reported at the Association meeting that he has seen a "huge" decline in mites during this summers inspections. Along with that he also noted a significantly lower percentage of drones in the colonies. Don't know what that may mean, if anything.

Ohio had tremendous losses last winter .. reports say about 72%. Many of the local beekeepers were rebuilding this summer through splits and packages. I wonder if the lower mite population could be a direct result of so many "new" colonies in their first year.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Haven't heard any real dire reports yet. Our bees seem to be holding up pretty well, my only bad location was one where I got moved in on by a keeper with about 80 hives a half mile away, last time I drove by he had the dreaded open feed barrel out; my bees went from about 48 good hives to 24 with a lot of mites. Those won't get hauled into the holding yard until I know things are under control. Aside from that little fiasco our summer dwindle has been well under 10% with almost none attributed to mites. We are two full seasons now without using one of the "big three" miticides that most commercial outfits seem to be using. We did put on an Apiguard treatment recently and with brood levels fairly low I'm cautiously optimistic that we are out of danger.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Well, I'll toss my observations in here. The inspector told me (mid-summer), that he saw far less mite related problems this year than in past years. However, I have more mites this year than last year and I see more diseased wing symptoms than before. Maybe I have more bees...thus, more mites and maybe I pay more attention to the bees when I work them. 

Here it is in October. I'm feeding, like George is, because it was an ugly, dry summer. But, in the last two weeks, the hives have boomed and it almost looks like it's spring the way the girls are flying. They look a long ways from crashing but time will tell. Actually, I think much depends on the kind of winter we end up having.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>Are we seeing a real decline in the virulence and proclivity of mites, or is this just a cyclic thing . . .

The "word" from Southern Indiana, is last year's mite load was down slightly. This year, "no mites at all".

Next year????

Most are reporting "record honey harvest", "best in years".
We had a very lousy spring, record heat MOST of the summer, its 90 F now,
and there is goldenrod blooming everywhere.
I have seen it growing/blooming in the cracks of city streets


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jlyon said:


> Haven't heard any real dire reports yet. Our bees seem to be holding up pretty well, my only bad location was one where I got moved in on by a keeper with about 80 hives a half mile away, last time I drove by he had the dreaded open feed barrel out; my bees went from about 48 good hives to 24 with a lot of mites.
> 
> Jlyon, are you saying the open feeding killed some of your bees ( 48 to 24 )?
> Not sure I'm fallowing you here.Or was it the spread of mites that was your concern.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I suppose the open barrel might have killed a few but I suspect the spread of mites was the primary cause. This guy dosen't do a very good job and anyone close to him pays a price. The evidence is a bit overwhelming when we have locations about three miles away in two directions and the bees look great, the affected yard had much higher mite numbers and about 1/2 had cluster sizes so small that we just combined what was left. As you well know trying to maintain a small cluster in hopes of getting a unit big enough to pollinate at this time of year is a waste of time and resources.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*bums*

Jlyon,
Ya, I hear you, not much justics at times when you do a hard job keeping in front of the mite , then some bum parks a load right on top of you.This happens to me all summer.
Well, good luck with them.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

I thought SD had registered yards with a distance limit?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Yeah but it is up to you to make your case to the state. They are a bit understaffed and will suggest that you work it out yourselves first. In this case I knew that his country had pretty bleak crop prospects at the time so I chose not to pursue it. Lesson learned I will definately be discussing this situation with Bob in Pierre.


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