# My Indoor Wintering Setup



## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Why do you get losses? More specifically, are they starved out when that time in March comes?


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Bush_84 said:


> I should get a few pics to upload but my site is a ~8x10 garden shed. I moved to the property this summer and I have had two nearly 100% loss winters. So I decided to keep my bees in the shed this winter. It required some repairs and I insulatedthe shed. I then got electric setup with outlets and lights. I used dryer vents for ventilation on opposite sides of the shed. One has a fan that sucks air in and the other passively lets it out. That is set on a timer to run for half an hour twice a day. I also have a small electric heater in the shed. Right now it's set to a timer and I have approximated the 40 degree setting on it. I do have a thermocube in the mail. It's a neat little device that you plug right in to an outlet. It has a thermostat in it that will only power whatever you plug into it between 35-45 degrees. So when that comes I will simply use that instead of a timer. I have a wireless thermostat in there and the monitor indicates that the temp is between 30-50 right now, but that should be more tightly regulated once the thermocube arrives. My doors are essentially sealed but when it got warm today there were a few bees outside so I wonder if there is a small opening at the base of the door. I just opened the door and let them do their thing.
> 
> So anything I should be doing differently?
> 
> ...


I think you are on the right track. I would find the light source (crack) and cover it up. It isn't as much of a problem now as it will be n spring when the temperature jumps and they really really want a cleansing flight. Make sure you have a way to bring in cold air if you get a jump in temperature. Good job by the way.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

They should not be flying outside when it is cold. Go ahead to find those holes and foam seal them up.
Besides, the temp. humidity, CO2 and CO monitoring is important inside the shed. Grab some indoor 'keeps to
PM them.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Just so you know, 5 degrees Celsius is the optimal wintering temperature for bees. They use the least amount of resources. You will find the bees will want to crawl out even in the total darkness and many will be dead in front of the entrance. Some undertakers wont make it back either and die from chilling. I tried indoor wintering, I prefer outdoor wintering now, but it rarely gets much below freezing here. The quilt box is what really made the most difference in my overwintering success.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Mike, how many colonies do you have in there? Do you have "light boxes" built around your vents to keep the shed dark?


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

hex0rz said:


> Why do you get losses? More specifically, are they starved out when that time in March comes?


Starved out with honey on the comb I'm afraid. Everybody says that cold doesn't kill bees but I still call bull. All of my march deaths have been due to bees clustering down tight during a long cold snap and starving. 

Jodie I have that one vent to a timer. Is there a way to program it to the timer and a switch? 

Beepro is there a simple way to monitor those things and what parameters am I to use as normals? Also it wasn't cold when they got out. If they had been outside they would have been flying. 

Adrian, I know you didn't ask me this but here is what I did. Again I used dryer vents. I used 90 degree turns to essentially eliminate light. With 90 degree turns and longer vents it was pretty dang dark.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Bush_84 said:


> My doors are essentially sealed but when it got warm today there were a few bees outside so I wonder if there is a small opening at the base of the door. I just opened the door and let them do their thing.


Stand inside the shed with all the doors closed. Then you will be able to see any light coming through. Seal them all up and keep it dark inside. If you open the doors for them to fly, the bees will not be able to find their way back into the shed and then finding which stacked hive is theirs.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

I have nearly the same setup going with 25 colonies this year. Last year was successful at 14 colonies with 1 loss. This year i installed a thermostatically controlled 110 cfm fan to control overheating. It got up to 0C out yesterday and the fan was running. Supplemental heat needed at lower than -10 with R12 insulation.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I'm not qualified to comment on how good the setup is for overwintering ... I have questions but not answers. This approach interests me as well.

I do have some test setup and consumer product safety experience. A power cube is easy, but not my first choice for unattended heating. They are pretty good, but they run hot enough that they can start a fire if something flammable gets too close. A draft moving a scrap of paper might do it. If I were doing such a setup, I'd use a lower-temperature heater. There are some electric baseboard heaters that might be pretty good, oil-filled portable radiators, etc. I once rigged a radio room up with a baseboard heater and a wall thermostat. We set the thermostat way down ... we only wanted to heat the room enough to stop condensation from forming when people arrived for a meeting.

Some people might consider a sealed up barrel of water as a thermal mass to help even out temperature. Old country trick for storing fruit in basements, that works in some climates (yours may be too cold). As water freezes it gives up an amazing amount of heat ... it takes quite a while to get it below 32 F.

Regarding the monitoring, I was going to suggest monitoring humidity, but someone beat me to it. But watch the ratings. Affordable humidistats and humidity gages can be wildly inaccurate, and indoor types will probably lie like a sailor if exposed to cold temperatures. I'd pick something intended for weather monitoring. There might be a humidistat intended for greenhouses that would work reliably for your fan. I've looked for household carbon monoxide monitors that can stand cold, but have never seen one rated for use below freezing. I'd love to hear if any of the experts can recommend a good CO2 monitor. 

I've been thinking about putting a nuc, maybe my nuc-based obs hive, indoors in my garage workshop, with a tube going outside so the bees could fly on warmer days. But what I'd love to know is how you guys doing indoor beekeeping deal with inspections and feeding? Much as I love bees, they seem to get really agitated when they're trapped indoors but out of their hives.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Phoebee said:


> But what I'd love to know is how you guys doing indoor beekeeping deal with inspections and feeding?


5 months of no hive work


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Ian said:


> 5 months of no hive work


Now THATS a useful warning for us noobs. If we go into the winter with insufficient stores, our bees are screwed! 

We are warned!

Not that this is not always true, but outdoors we can slip in some fondant in an emergency.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Usually the hives are stacked to the ceiling. There is no way of working a hive. 
some guys will provide water at the entrances, others will feed syrup later in winter.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

One thing to keep in mind is that our winters here are very cold and dry. I know that some get wet winters but we are very dry here. With proper ventilation I'd be surprised if humidity is a problem. 

Another thing to note is that I only have three hives ATM. So my hives aren't really stacked in there. I actually have more empty equment in there than filled with room to walk around still. So if I have my hives spread out I'd assume the bees may be able to make cleansing flights if I open the doors. 

I have been in there with the doors closed. I had it pitch black but if there is an area letting in light it's probably the doors. They were essentially plywood on hinges. I used 2x4s and made it so the 2x4s sealed around the frame when shut. I then used what I believe is garage door weather stripping on the outside of the doors to seal out any light, but didn't apply any to the bottom. Maybe I need to do so.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

JoshW said:


> I have nearly the same setup going with 25 colonies this year. Last year was successful at 14 colonies with 1 loss. This year i installed a thermostatically controlled 110 cfm fan to control overheating. It got up to 0C out yesterday and the fan was running. Supplemental heat needed at lower than -10 with R12 insulation.



What did you use to thermostatically control your fan?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Bush_84 said:


> I have been in there with the doors closed. I had it pitch black but if there is an area letting in light it's probably the doors. They were essentially plywood on hinges. I used 2x4s and made it so the 2x4s sealed around the frame when shut. I then used what I believe is garage door weather stripping on the outside of the doors to seal out any light, but didn't apply any to the bottom. Maybe I need to do so.


I've got a shed built from a standard kit, but I modified it considerably, particularly the doors. Normally those are as you describe, just T-111 plywood panels on hinges. But I wanted the shed to keep out mice, so I put close-fitting frames on the doors and made them so the plywood lapped over the frames. This made a tight right angle gap the mice couldn't get thru. Had to radius one of the frame 2x4's to make it open but it works. I can't swear it is a perfect seal against light, but it does stop the mice when I remember to close the doors. With a little weatherstripping it would be light tight. But since I put a skylight in the shed, that's hopeless for me.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Howdy Bush 84 
I have a very similar set up to yours in a 4 by 14 foot lean on the back of my garage...I have 15 nucs 2 and3 story high inside and I have just enough room to wheel in nucs with a 12 by 18 inch moving cart with a couple inches to spare..lol...
I had a full discription of my set up but it timed me out and I lost it all---RATS--- I'll try to post some pics later.
Good luck 

==McBee7==


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I also have some "crawlers" headed for the door, but I don't think its because of light, but because of natural convection at the floor,,,I don't have my ventilation fan finished yet but I'm counting on that slight crack under the door to vent out the nasty gas's that are at floor level...
Currently for ventilation I open the door a few minutes before work and a few minutes after work,,,In the dark of course.. 

==McBee7==


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

On longer than 5 mins writing I use notepad or word-pad to type and then
copy and paste into the BS reply area. 
A small red LED miner's light will help so you don't have to work in the dark the next
time. I have 2 of them just in case.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Thanks BeePro for the tip on note pad, I'll use it next time, I just get so agrivated when that happens...
I also use the red light. I have a light mounted on my hard hat from work, that has the red light choice like this one.
http://www.menards.com/main/electri...eadlight-with-batteries/p-2084130-c-14149.htm

==McBee7==


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I've started copying the whole message before I submit the message. Of course, since I started doing this I've never lost a message even if I've had to relogin lol.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

It's been frosty here. Checked my air inlets and the screens were frosted shut. Cut the screens, air exchange resumes


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I had a problem with my air intakes freezing up last year during the long cold stretch last year. Didn't run the fans was much and the flaps on the intakes froze shut. Cold winters add some challenges.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

So far we have been off to another cold start to winter. Not that it matters for the bees inside.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

I think some of the readers of this forum misunderstand the purpose of indoor wintering. The purpose is to regulate the metabolism of the bees. This ensures that the bees have enough stores to survive winter. Temperature is how you regulate a bees metabolism. 5-10 Celsius being optimal. (Bees are at lowest metabolism and as a function lowest consumption of sugar/honey).
Also, no matter how dry the climate is bees expel water as a waste of respiration (breathing). Moisture will be a problem. I am on my first bi screw up in my new winter building. I did the same thing, intake frozen and not enough air exchange. I already have mold developing on the walls and it took two weeks to get the humidity below 90%.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Jamming up vent is probably something to consider. As long as my fan runs I don't think I'll have humidity issues. Between only having 3 hives in a 8x10 building, dry heat, and air exchange humidity shouldn't be an issue unless the thing doesn't breath and I don't catch it for a long time. I have been thinking about increasing ventilation frequency while decreasing duration. Right now my current timer is set to twice a day for 30 minutes, but I am thinking I should change to 30 minutes four times per day.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> It's been frosty here. Checked my air inlets and the screens were frosted shut.


I would expect the exhaust vents to frost up not the inlet. Are the fans on all the time?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> I would expect the exhaust vents to frost up not the inlet. Are the fans on all the time?


The air inlet screen was frosted shut due to horr frost. My exhaust fans don't frost as there is enough warm air flow to keep the shroud from freezing


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Just for curiosity. How do the bees take cleansing flights and what do they do with corpses?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

dsegrest said:


> Just for curiosity. How do the bees take cleansing flights and what do they do with corpses?


no cleansing flights for 5 months. As the bees age, they fly off into the darkness to die. I will sweep once a month, a wheel barrel full each month.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> The air inlet screen was frosted shut due to horr frost. My exhaust fans don't frost as there is enough warm air flow to keep the shroud from freezing


Isn't the colder air coming in dryer than the warm air going out?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Acebird said:


> Isn't the colder air coming in dryer than the warm air going out?


Not having this setup on which to judge, it would seem likely that the cold air coming in, while dry, is still cold, and it is hitting humid air in the shed. Any time you get the two together ....

This suggests some measures one might take to keep humid air from circulating against a cold inlet.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> Isn't the colder air coming in dryer than the warm air going out?


Generally as a rule.

My screen frosted shut due to horr frost. That result had nothing to do with the air exchange in the building. The screen frosted shut as the moist cold air passed through my outside vent screen. The screen was put in place to keep summer bees and flys out of the facility. I have removed the screen for the remainder of the winter.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Phoebee said:


> Not having this setup on which to judge, it would seem likely that the cold air coming in, while dry, is still cold, and it is hitting humid air in the shed. Any time you get the two together ....
> 
> This suggests some measures one might take to keep humid air from circulating against a cold inlet.


I would expect frost when warm air moves into cold air not the other way around. I would also expect the frost or snow to occur past the exhaust vent if there is enough CFM. As long as the exhaust fan is always running the warm air cannot go in the inlet.

Ian, I have never heard the term "horr frost"


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I've not seen the spelling of horr frost, but hoar frost is a term used by pilots. And not fondly. Its usually not as bad as rime ice. There's a wikipedia article, on it, but I'd say an easy definition is a rough white common kind of frost, kinda like what you get in a freezer that is not frost free.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The lakes are kicking off lots of humidity, and it has been cold and calm.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Ian, I have never heard the term "horr frost"


Acebird, of all people, complaining about someone else's spelling! :lpf:

Its "*hoar *frost".



Note that with virtually any term you aren't familiar with, you can double click the term to highlight it, and then right click the resulting highlight to get Google to look it up. And if it is misspelled, as in this case "_horr _frost", typically Google will present an option to search on the correct spelling instead.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

The intakes can frost up if the exhaust fans is not running continuously in cold weather and warm air from the inside of the building gets in contact with the cold intakes. You can run the exhaust fan continuously if it is -40 outside. Drops the temperature and RH too much. Frost build up is a big problem in systems using passive air exchange.

Phoebee check out Ian's website. I see he beat me to it and posted a picture. He has a great picture of hoar frost on trees at the top. Water vapour is sublimating directly into solid ice crystals.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Allen Martens said:


> The intakes can frost up if the exhaust fans is not running continuously in cold weather and warm air from the inside of the building gets in contact with the cold intakes. You can run the exhaust fan continuously if it is -40 outside. Drops the temperature and RH too much. Frost build up is a big problem in systems using passive air exchange.
> 
> Phoebee check out Ian's website. I see he beat me to it and posted a picture. He has a great picture of hoar frost on trees at the top. Water vapour is sublimating directly into solid ice crystals.


Pretty on trees. Ugly on your wings when you're flying.

You describe it forming about like I guessed.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ian I see on your website that you feed something in winter. Is that water or sugar syrup? Also for my small setup how often should I be running my ventilation fan?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

three hives will not take much air flow. Exchange the air during the day time to conserve heat. 

One winter the hives went in lighter because I got behind and the weather turned foul. I started seeing starved hives as winter dragged on so I started feeding my nucs and single hives. Too much work. Agitates the bees, syrup messes up the floor, bees sting you as you work the narrow isles and feeding 200ml at a time gets tired real fast., As long as you have them up to weight in the fall there should be no thought of feeding through the winter. 

some guys will provide water for the bees. They buy bottled water, poke a hole in the bottom side and place it on the landing board next to the cluster.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Dan Bush, I think the photos you are referring to are from last winter. Ian, please correct me if need be. Last winter Ian was worried about the bees not being able to access the honey because there was so little humidity in the cold air that was coming in from outside. This factor is of particular concern to Northern Canadians because of the tendency of their granola honey to granulate.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Acebird, of all people, complaining about someone else's spelling! :lpf:


Rader, do you see the word spelling in that sentence? I thought maybe it was a local term.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Allen Martens said:


> The intakes can frost up if the exhaust fans is not running continuously in cold weather and warm air from the inside of the building gets in contact with the cold intakes. You can run the exhaust fan continuously if it is -40 outside. Drops the temperature and RH too much. Frost build up is a big problem in systems using passive air exchange.


I am guessing you mean can't not can. This is why I think you should control the CFM either with a variable speed motor or damper at the intake.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Dan Bush, I think the photos you are referring to are from last winter. Ian, please correct me if need be. Last winter Ian was worried about the bees not being able to access the honey because there was so little humidity in the cold air that was coming in from outside. This factor is of particular concern to Northern Canadians because of the tendency of their granola honey to granulate.


I fed my bee two winters ago. But Adrian, yes, I was worried about the low humidity in the wintering shed last years because of the continuous cold dry weather. Instead of providing water to the hives I regulated the humidity in the wintering room through out this extended cold period. It helped form condensation within the hive and _I think_ satisfied what was needed.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> I am guessing you mean can't not can.


No, he meant can. Air flows are controlled with variable speed motors and dampers. The continued air flow keeps the fans from frosting up. I run my primary fan continuously, set on idle it moves as much air as a table fan would on medium. With 900 hives in the well insulated shed temperature is not the issue as the bees expel more than enough heat but as Allen suggested, humidity in the room may drop too low.

last night the temp dipped down to -29 degrees Celsius,....hmmm......


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

My intake problem is that I have styrofoam damps that can freeze up during periods of prolong cold like last year. I think I would need a continuous high volume air flow for this not to occur. I don't think the frost was the problem, but rather a melt and the subsequent cold weather freezing the base of the damper. I'm considering putting some insulation over the hoods outside or directing a circulation fan towards the intakes. Considering I've never had a problem before, I may just leave it and watch for the problem during prolonged cold spells.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> Allen suggested, humidity in the room may drop too low.


What is the negative if the humidity gets too low and how low is too low?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ace;



Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Dan Bush, I think the photos you are referring to are from last winter. Ian, please correct me if need be. Last winter Ian was worried about the bees not being able to access the honey because there was so little humidity in the cold air that was coming in from outside. This factor is of particular concern to Northern Canadians because of the tendency of their granola honey to granulate.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

B84
I've just been venting my bees twice a day "by the door" but tomarrow I'll be hooking up the exhaust fan to run about 5 mins per hour, just because I've got more hives in there and think the fresh air will be a plus...I have some dead bees on the floor but they are even, so I think they arn't traveling to light or they would be more directional and in groups by the light..I didn't put on the heat untill yesterday when the outside temp went below zero and the bees couldn't keep it above 32 anymore on their own. The cube is keeping it between 35 and 45 F and the humidity has dropped also,,,I have quilt boxes on the hives for just that reason but now it looks like the humidity will be in line,,,about 55% by the remote temp/humidity wireless sensor...

==McBee7==


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

We will see how this goes but I feel confident in the science behind wintering in this fashion. I can not only reduce consumption of honey stores but I can also prevent freezing of small colonies and prevent those nasty March days from killing off my hives at the finish line.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> Ace;





> This factor is of particular concern to Northern Canadians because of the tendency of their granola honey to granulate.


Thanks Ian. Yeah, I missed that. It must really get dry if it can affect the moisture in the honey once it is capped.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> Thanks Ian. Yeah, I missed that. It must really get dry if it can affect the moisture in the honey once it is capped.


Ya, canola honey will harden like a concrete. Large clusters never have issues as they can generate enough condensation around the cluster to liquefy the honey but I have had smaller clusters starve over sheets of canola honey. Smaller clusters throw a flag right off the mark anyway.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> It must really get dry if it can affect the moisture in the honey once it is capped.


The indoor bees need a source of water to be able to dilute the stored/capped honey to a level that they can use - just like bees outdoors do. 

If the air in the shed is so dry that there is no condensation available on any hive surface, where are the bees going to get their water? As _Ian _already noted in post #41, offering the bees _bottled water_ is one option. 

But managing the humidity so that the air is not so dry, and condensation *is *available to the bees, seems to be Ian's goal.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks Rader, I missed that. Ace, the RH in the room has nothing to do with the honey moisture content. The honey is already hard and dry and does not provide enough moisture to consume without additional moisture.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> But managing the humidity so that the air is not so dry, and condensation *is *available to the bees, seems to be Ian's goal.



Then I am thinking to evenly distribute the 55 gal barrels all over the w/s to increase the humidity thru out.
Run a fogger inside these barrel to vaporize the water. Of course, if the temp. is too cold to form ice then each
barrel must be converted to house a small water heater. You think this will help with the increase in humidity?
An alternative is to run the warm air vaporizer units in there. Might have to section off the w/h that is too big to prevent the moisture
loss.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> Ya, canola honey will harden like a concrete. Large clusters never have issues as they can generate enough condensation around the cluster to liquefy the honey but I have had smaller clusters starve over sheets of canola honey. Smaller clusters throw a flag right off the mark anyway.


You mentioned that you control RH in your wintering sheds. Do you do that by adding heat or humidifying the dry air?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> You mentioned that you control RH in your wintering sheds. Do you do that by adding heat or humidifying the dry air?


I have a high capacity household humidifier. I start to get concerned with RH levels around 25%. During the air exchange periods I will run the humidifier to bring the RH up to 45-50%.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

I found where the light was getting in. It was in the door. Where the two doors came together I had to figure out an alternative for weather stripping at the bottom of where the doors come together. I folded over tar paper and nailed it down. It clearly wasn't working as that is where the light was coming in. I'll have to go buy more and it'll be pitch black.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I hope all is well with your bees B84...
I increased my fan time on the timer to 10 minutes every 4 hours, but we are having kind of a heat wave as you know and I wanted to increase the fresh air into the bee room to bring down the humidity and discovered my plug in timer that turns on/off my "bathroom fan (50cfm)" had stoped and the digital display was blank......I had programed a second timer I had to run it at 10 mins. per 2 hours and wanted to just change it out..
Anyway I think the timer plugged into an outlet in my garage and is exposed to outside temps had chilled the inturnal timming battery and it forgot what it was doing...
These timers are rated for indoor use and (I think) not made to work in outdoor temps.....MY second timer is a coupe of years newer and the battery is a little newer and I havn't had a problem with it yet, but just a reminder to check on the timmer to make sure it;s working as you intended...Mine is working fine now at +30 deg F but I will be watching as the temp drops as we go into January,,,,,May have to switch to a different type timmer....
PS. the cube is working great... 

==McBee7==


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Put your timer and any other controls inside where you can monitor them and run the wires to the devices you want to control.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

McBee7 said:


> ... is exposed to outside temps had chilled the inturnal timming battery and it forgot what it was doing...
> ...


Mechanical, 24h, programmable outlet timer switch do not need a battery.


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## gladiolus (Dec 12, 2014)

Inside wintering;
Total darkness is an absolute.
41 degrees f is ideal
air exchange is needed but not to the point of skrewing up temp or other requirements.but don't let it get wet.
Put them in as late as possible and out as soon as possible.
gladiolus


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Everything seems to be going well this far. The small sliver of light is coming from the door. That will be fixed soon. Fan, heater, and timers all functioning appropriately. Once door is properly sealed things will be perfect for the rest of the winter.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I fixed my timer problem by installing a mechanical timer from Menards for about $7 ....
But with this sudo spring---fog for several days with temps above 32 , High humidity---I didn't want the mold to start or the bees to become too active, I bought a DE-humidifier to keep down the humidity in the space around the outside of the hives, and reduced the ventilation (which was increasing the humidity) and now the space humidity is at about 60% instead of 75% but the temp is somewhat elevated 50 deg..
The forcast is for colder temps after monday so I just have to make it through tomarrow then the sudo spring should be over....At least for a few (i hope) months untill we hit the real spring in march/april/may...
Anyway, spring is only about 4 months away, LOL..

==McBee7==


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Last night it was -30f and currently its at -21f and the bee shed is in the low 40s with about 50% humidity. 
Im running my exhaust fan at 15 minutes every 2 hours. The forcast is for more negitive temps throughout the week so the winter test contenues,,,,,I swept out the dead bees this week and there were about a quarts of dead bees for 15 nucs....As the sweeping bumped a few of the hives the bees kind of came out and covered the entrance to about 3 inches up the front, which I was glad to see, as that tells me they're alive, as do the elevated humidity levels above outside readings ...





This puts 15 nucs into perspective in my 4 by 14 shed...

I need to really watch them as the temp and humidity rises.....inside and out....

==McBee7==


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## gladiolus (Dec 12, 2014)

McBee
The about ideal temp. is 41degrees F. A couple either way is OK. I tend to stay just under.
Stay out of there during day light. Keep it as dark as possible, pitch dark and no moon.
After you were in there and disturbed them there are most likely more dead bees on the floor than you swept out. When they come out they don't get back in when it is again dark. Leave the door shut, if you do need to go in there do it at night with a red lens on your light.Your air exchange is more than adequit. I would run the fan even a little less now that it is winter. You may get them too dry, needs to be 40% or better
When spring does finally come for real get them outside just as soon as you can and immediatly put feed on them both syrup and pollen.
DON'T KILL THEM WITH KINDNESS! 
gladiolus


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Just another update. Bees doing well. I wanted to pop the tops to see how their mountain camp sugar was doing. From what I can see they haven't eaten much. Each hive is still alive. I will leave them alone until February and check sugar again. So far these bees are ahead of my bees from previous years. Just a couple of questions. 

1. What temps do I move out?

2. My previous years my bees would sometimes walk out of the upper entrance poop and go back in. Whenever I have been in the shed I have seen a few bees at the upper entrance. I see no feces yet, but will they do the same in the dark? 

So far I am pretty pumped. In my last two years sometime in the next couple of weeks I would be struggling to keep my bees alive, but at this point they haven't even broken through their sugar. No December losses either. There always seems to be that one hive that goes in December.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Glad to hear your bees are doing well...I want to look under the covers on mine but I just keep telling myself they were plenty heavy when I put them in and they're fine...Plus to look under the cover of one I might disturb the next one to it.
I've also considered taking the one closest to the door outside and inspect it and maybe leave it outside but winterize it for a couple more months now that the worst part of winter is over...
I've also been wondering if I should "harden them off" like you do with plants in a green house before you put the plants outside in the spring.....First turn down (or off) the heat in the building so the hive temps track with the outside temps before setting them outside. then on a nice day set them out for a cleansing flight, maybe in march and start feeding them to build them up (If you can push carnies to start earlier)...Maybe I think to much LOL ...
Temps today were near 40 and tomarrow will be about the same...Long term forcast for February looks like day and nitetime temps below freezing into march....It's the 40 degree days that make me antsy....
Good Luck

==McBee7==


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

1. I don't look at the inside hive temps. But at the consistent high in the
60s outside with the STABLE weather pattern. No use if one day
at 60s and the next at below 40s. So keep them in there for
as long as you can. A test nuc hive as a guinea pig outside
will do to see what they bring in at the Spring time.

2. Oh well, when you needed to go you need to go!
Doesn't matter if in the dark or light. Jk.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Found some pics.



















These pics were taken prior to hives going in and prior to ventilation system. Either way it gives everybody a little look at my shed.


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## gladiolus (Dec 12, 2014)

Bush 84
Building looks like it should work. You may want to line the inside just to protect the insulation.I don't see your fresh air intake but you have said it is there.Stay out in the daylight! This winter so far is tougher to control the temp. #0 plus today and this is the coldest for about 2 weeks. be sure the fans are working and keep it cool. Be sure the thermostat on the heater is working properly.Stay out during daylight or you will have a lot of bees on the floor.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

That looks good Bush84 and it should work.
The skin on the outside of my door is also larger than the frame, to keep out the light and stop drafts, and on cold days I have frost that collects along the edges, as the exhaust fan pressureizes the room and vents air where it can, which is along the edges of the door. I also have a circulating fan in the room, which is just a small floor type fan that I hung from the ceiling so the air wouldn't stratify...Only 8 more weeks, more or less, and the snow will be gone and we'll forget about the shed and put the tiller and lawn mower and rakes back in and close it up again untill next fall 

==McBee7==


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I have some questions. Imagine that people ran their systems exactly like Bush84 and McBee7, but had the hives arranged against the walls so that the bees had access to the outside through small holes. Would the benefit of the indoor wintering set up be negated by the ventilation provided by outside access? 
It is not possible for someone on Ian's scale, and neither is it probably desirable as it is much colder up there. In this region it is cold, but not as cold as Canada most of the time. I speculate that if one kept the bees in a set-up like this - like a European bee shed - it might be possible to have the best of both worlds. Bees could ventilate themselves, and heat that would normally escape from the sides and top of the hive would warm the building and still moderate the temperatures as in the totally enclosed systems.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Oh ya I'd de doing that if I could. There has been work on that kinda project up here and it works extremely well but extremely finicky 
It's not as straight forward as you may think. 

Entrances blocked off during the cold of cold to conserve heat but access to open entrance inside to allow regular ventilation and the natural attrition during winter. 

When temp in spring warms for flight, entrances to the outdoors were opened. The inside temps were maintained as the same as outdoor temps. 
The neat part of this project, and I forget the exact details, I'll try to dig it up and provide the details, is they were heating the building during the night time lows to help keep the cluster loose and brooding. And as you can imagine it helped manage early brood rearing in early cold spring conditions. 

There was a catch to it, like every good thing. One, the need of huge amounts of building face to have the bees lined up against. For me, 900 hives pointing out if the side would be nuts.
The other issue was that if the temp was not monitored properly,too warm on cool mornings, the bees would fly out and freeze,. But when the temp threshold was met, it worked well.

I was going to test out this method small scale few years back with smaller wintered hives but like everything else, this project got put on the back burner.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Adrian, I had actually left myself this possibility when I made the shed. If you look at the left wall in my building,I made the whole side removable from about 2 ft up from the bottom, to the top by the eaves. There are removable 4by8 sheets of chip board with stytofoam fastened to the inside, that can be totaly removed or tilted out if it became necessary to try to control temps in the spring if It turns into a runaway as far as temp control...I could build platforms 2 feet high against the outside wall and make or expose the entrances of the hives as the european Bee houses.....I'll see if I can post some pics of my shed while it was under construction to show more on this..
Stay warm all,,,It was -23F overnight, but spring is on the way... 

==McBee7==


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Here are the pics of my emergency temp control/bee excape in my shed....







I also wondered if the large overhanging roofs on the european bee houses was to protect the entrances from inclemint weather and also form a warm area (bubble) of air under the large roof to allow the bees an area for a cleansing flight when necessary in the spring..

==McBee7==


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks for your thoughts Ian/Earl. I think having an emergency "out" is a good idea. Spring can arrive in a rush.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> For me, 900 hives pointing out if the side would be nuts.


I don't see why you would have individual access to each hive. They just need a way to get out and back. That could be a tube to a common duct. Maybe even a canape over a whole skid of hives.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So is the 2x4s nail or screw into the wall?
What is the size of the nails or screw you used?


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

Many in Alaska, simply kill them off, and replace with packages every year. Extreme North climates into the -60 (F) must do something to insulate and / or warm hives. But as some of the commercial folks will tell you, this is not without problems! I can't remember if it was Laurie or JodieToadie that posted pics of what happens on an unplanned warm day... But JodieToadie posted this very helpful link from another thread about Winterizing in buildings: 
http://www.backyardbees.ca/files/winteringbeaverlodge.pdf


Many are using sheds or out buildings as discussed thus far.

Many variations of the above!

Mine? Attempting to create most efficient methods... In other words heat the space, or even better, just the bees... Not the world! Succeeding, but now testing the limits. However not obviously as practical on the commercial scale. But for what it is worth:


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

Deleted duplicate... Not sure how that happened.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

I have tried all kinds of things. Tar paper, hard foam insulation, heat tape, light bulbs...none seemed to do much. I will say that I wintered a nuc with heat tape last year. Heat tape seemed like it was doing nothing with a full sized hive but helped with the nuc. Again winter is not over but my hives are in the best shape that they have ever been in February being in the shed.


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## gladiolus (Dec 12, 2014)

I am not sure I understand the question here.
Tarpaper etc. That is for wrapping outside hives to help them over winter. Any hive can and will survive winter even here in Minnesota if it is healthy and properly prepared.The hive or even nuc must have a strong, young heavy producing queen. No or very, very light mite load. No other health problems.Ample, accessable stored honey but not plugged out with honey. They must have room to cluster and enough bees to cluster. Vented hive with windbreak protection.
Heaters etc. make people feel good not bees.Don't kill them with kindness!


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

And if your hive(s) aren't perfect, you just let them die? Must have been bad genetics anyway? We've seen very high mortality rates in the past few years, increasingly so, with weather being only a contributor to the problem. You are correct about mites, and disease being contributing factors. However mites and disease are treatable, providing you have live bees to treat. Warmers, or climate controlled buildings, reduce the weather related stresses, and make it possible for you to have something to continue to work with IMHO.

Your preparations are evidently working for you, and that is exactly the question by the OP... What are you doing to prepare your hives in Mn, to have such high success? This and many similar threads show that hobbyists and commercial beekeepers alike, are either creating climate controlled buildings, or sheds, to help their colonies have a better chance during cold, and/or extended winters, particularly in the Northern Regions. 

My warmer design, allows for the same advantages, at a single hive level, without the cost of a building, or the energy to heat the building... A warmer is not a choice everyone will make, but for those not able to afford, or have the inclination, or simply not willing to put that much time and money into a hobby, it is now a viable option. And with reduced honey being required, due to the artificial heat provided, due to the fact that the calories don't have to be consumed to produce that heat, the savings to even the strong hives, by warmers or climate control, is significant enough to be worthy of a look! If it approaches anywhere near what I've observed... well lets just say that the proof will be in the pudding. I have several people around the country, including Alaska, that have live bees today, where their buddies' hives have died. So opinions aside, results are speaking loudly.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

gladiolus said:


> I am not sure I understand the question here.
> Tarpaper etc. That is for wrapping outside hives to help them over winter. Any hive can and will survive winter even here in Minnesota if it is healthy and properly prepared.The hive or even nuc must have a strong, young heavy producing queen. No or very, very light mite load. No other health problems.Ample, accessable stored honey but not plugged out with honey. They must have room to cluster and enough bees to cluster. Vented hive with windbreak protection.
> Heaters etc. make people feel good not bees.Don't kill them with kindness!



As I have said I have done all of the things advised by other northern beeks. My strong hives starved after consuming every drop of honey in the hive and the rest froze or starved with honey on the comb. My theory is that wintering in a temp controlled shed will significantly reduce this from happening. My strong hives consume significantly less honey dueto reduced cold stress and my other hives don't freeze or contract their cluster to the point of starvation.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I couldn't stand the suspence today, and went out and rolled out 2 nucs that were closest to the door and weighed them....


I had written the weights on the covers when I put them in the shed.. the one that weighed 119# going in weighed 96#,,,they had burned 23#s of stores since mid Nov, for a burn rate of about 8# per month. The other went in at 98# and weighed about 76# ,they used 22# of honey, for a simular rate of 8# per month +/-...I figured I had nothing to loose if tthey needed sugar added, so that is a giant sigh of relief.....Barring opperator error, I think they can make it another 8 weeks if it (winter) lasts that long 
----COMM'ON tax day (april 15)---Yes I know ,,,Dont Count the chickens yet----LOL....

==McBee7==


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## gladiolus (Dec 12, 2014)

Your feed consumption rate is right on or even a little higher than average. you should have plenty feed left to get to green grass.
Don't forget when you put them outside feed both syrup and pollen or at least pollen sub..
The feed is more to stimulate the queen that anything else. Need to get her laying full time. She is a couple weeks behind outside wintered hives as far as rebuilding for honey collection.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Are they still alive in there?
How come I cannot see any bees?


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## mitch30 (Feb 8, 2014)

McBee7 said:


> I couldn't stand the suspence today, and went out and rolled out 2 nucs that were closest to the door and weighed them....
> 
> 
> I had written the weights on the covers when I put them in the shed.. the one that weighed 119# going in weighed 96#,,,they had burned 23#s of stores since mid Nov, for a burn rate of about 8# per month. The other went in at 98# and weighed about 76# ,they used 22# of honey, for a simular rate of 8# per month +/-...I figured I had nothing to loose if tthey needed sugar added, so that is a giant sigh of relief.....Barring opperator error, I think they can make it another 8 weeks if it (winter) lasts that long
> ...


What is the base weight empty? My nucs are outside and I am just wondering how much honey they had? Going into winter.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

LOL..That's a good one Beepro!!
The reason you don't see any bees is because it was -5F as I weighed the hives today, but I did see one solitary bee buzz off as I rolled them back in.. They are VERY QUITE bees also. I was not about to open the hives and do an explority exam..  would not be a good thing....
Seriously though I know they (as a group) are alive because of the elevated humidity level (50%) in the shed especially if you consider warming up air thats -5F at 60% humidity. As the air is warmed up inside, the humidity will drop like a rock unless something is adding moisture--aha!! The bees, are oxidezing honey and creating heat and moisture.....I also have more dead bees on the floor every week, not as in mass death, but as normal attrition as the bees age and some fly off in the dark and don't find their way back....
---This was a good day for me---

==McBee7==


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I tried to post a table I had made in "Office" but it wouldn't post so here are some general weights...

5 frame nuc with bottom board, migratory cover, box, 5 frames of foundation, and quilt box with dry pine chips=27#

5/5 same components as above, 2 boxs 10frames =37.8#

5/5/5 same as above, 3boxs 15frames =49#

This doesn't include water accumulated in the quilt box or the wax on the foundation....

I'm figuring a base weight of 60# for my calcuations....Anything above this number is bees and honey....

==McBee7==


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

>8# per month> Is it 8 pounds? Do you think they have brood? Thank you McBee7.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Eduardo- Yes that's 8 pounds, but I might add that the inside temp is between 35F and 45F, and they are carni's, queens are kona...
As far as brood are conserned, I'm not sure,,,although I do see some young bees in the dead that I sweep out ocassionaly, I don't see any larva that were carried out and droped off the front porches...There are cappings carried out the front,,,I'm thinking of putting cardboard on the bottom to see which frames they are working and to help them clean out the bottom....

==McBee7==


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Ah yes... you are wintering indoor. Very rare here. 
Your bees burn rates are similar to mines. I leave about 26 - 33 pounds of honey for the winter (Nov-Feb). Three years ago several of my hives died with hunger in April. Those hives explode with bees and brood in a warmer March and during the first 2 weeks of April has not stopped raining. Quickly exhausted the reserves. I had to run to feed. With regard to reserves, March and April are critical months in some regions of Portugal.


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

The problem with heat tape, light bulbs and other external methods of warming, is that there is no real control, based on internal temperatures. So basically a crap shoot, but better than not trying anything at all, in my opinion. This is the reason that I set out to design an internal solution that leaves nothing to chance or wasting any energy to outside environment. I would be zero for six, if it weren't for warmers, this winter. Yellow Jacket predation, and/or Varoa, took out all but two. I started the winter on Nov 1 with just 4 colonies still alive, but barely. Two dwindled to zero, and two have survived to now. The two that have made it, 1 was a baseball size cluster, and the second was 1/2 of a frame of bees. Both are still alive with queens and now have eggs and brood. All 4 had live bees after the two major cold spells that went to zero. So success where no hope could have been had without, and not in a heated building or shed. I can also do splits with less than a frame of bees. The implications are good.


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## gladiolus (Dec 12, 2014)

I believe this string has gotten off track as so many do.
This was an inside wintering thread not supplimental heat to save a marginal or ill prepared hives. Be practical do you want to save that weak hive that didn't make any honey? Unless that weak hive is very special for some reason, cut your losses in the fall.
If you have bees inside at 41 degrees F., totally dark and with air exchange leave them alone.Properly housed inside bees are loosly clustered and are not sticking their heads out to guard or check the weather until the keeper goes in there in the light and further bangs around. This disrupts the cluster and causes more deaths and higher food(honey)consumption
Get them out as soon as the outside temperature maintains 40 degrees and feed, feed, feed!


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

It looks like you have a well thought out system warmbees, I had tried an experiment of heating the box by making a warming chamber under the hive with a tin top to spread out the heat across the bottom,,,I used a couple of 7 watt night lights to heat the chamber, but the bees succombed to condensation and humidity in the box.
The bees had survived -43F but were taken out by condensation..So I had to change my stratige. Others in my area had very limited and irratic sucesses (sorry my spelling is horrendous, lol), and their sucesses were not predictable or repeatable, so I turned to the shed method and tried to control the things in it, to control the conditions that I knew killed my bees and I could control with off the shelf, hardware store, inexpensive items....
The most expensive item in my method is the building,,Which could be anything including a "yard barn" like Bush84 uses..I had actually been thinking about the yard barn but found it cheaper for me to build the addition on my garage...Any way good luck with your warm box...

==McBee7==


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Thank you very much for the great advise Gladiolus 
Yes --I am guilty of interupting the bees "Long Night"... I think you speak from experance......I was wondering about the 8# per month average that you mentioned earlier, I havn't heard of this, and also Eduardo had mentioned it...Where does that average come from and I'm sure if I had the bees outside in the cold that consumption would bee higher,,,,,Or maybe I have missed some info in that regard or maybe I have strayed in my bee logic...Thanks again...

==McBee7==


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## gladiolus (Dec 12, 2014)

McBee7 
My wintering area is under the eaves(leanto) on the end of a steel building. It is made of 4" thick panels that I found cheap. Put them together,foamed all joints then sided inside and out.Cut in intake with light shield down low on end,Kitchen hood vented out thru ceiling.Milkhouse electric heater for heat. I did spend money on thermo controls and have a 4 degree swing in temp.38/42.
Honey consumption outside depends on temp, wind and several other variables and can and will go over 100# many winters. Outside hives in a winter such as this has been ofter starve with lots of honey left but the cluster is so tight and immobile that they can't get there.
The consumption figures come from some institution of higher learning, old bee keepers and others who have kept long and accurate records.
The biggest problem is that all bee keeping is local, what works for me may not work 30/40 miles down the road. Keep a log and figure out what works at your place. read this and all the books you can then sort off the chaff.


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

gladiolus said:


> I believe this string has gotten off track as so many do.
> This was an inside wintering thread not supplimental heat to save a marginal or ill prepared hives. Be practical do you want to save that weak hive that didn't make any honey? Unless that weak hive is very special for some reason, cut your losses in the fall.
> If you have bees inside at 41 degrees F., totally dark and with air exchange leave them alone.Properly housed inside bees are loosly clustered and are not sticking their heads out to guard or check the weather until the keeper goes in there in the light and further bangs around. This disrupts the cluster and causes more deaths and higher food(honey)consumption
> Get them out as soon as the outside temperature maintains 40 degrees and feed, feed, feed!


It never ceases to amaze me how what is true for one, must therefore be true for ALL! Inside wintering is not "supplimental Heating"? I've done an enormous amount of research on this subject, at many levels, but with the stroke of a pen, and assumptions not in evidence, my voice has no validation in this thread, and should go away. 

"Marginal or ill prepared hives"? Be practical and save my baseball size colony that just 30 days earlier was my strongest hive with over 3 deep lang boxes of bees and honey? I've not only treated for mites, and made heroic efforts and preparations, but watched as my strongest of six hives, was stripped and nearly totally destroyed by yellow jackets by first of November! My second strongest hive with 2 and 1/2 boxes of bees and honey, was totally devastated and emptied! Are they special? They are the most docile bees I've ever owned, and I work them regularly with no veil, special clothing or gloves. But more importantly, I love the hobby, deplore the high losses of recent years, can't afford the $95 cost per package to replace, and I am want to do something, ANYTHING, to try to make a difference and change future prospects! I'm not sure what disqualifies me to this discussion, but the fact that I have actually succeeded in saving my strongest colony, brings me no end of satisfaction and joy! Correct me if I'm wrong, but his thread had been discussing heating spaces, safely, since page one!


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## gladiolus (Dec 12, 2014)

Warnbees;
Remember you asked!
The name of the thread is My Indoor Wintering Setup.
Bees are not poodles nor manx they are livestock.
No one loves to watch their bees work and and do more to care for their bees than I or any other bee keeper.
You very clearly care a great deal for your bees but should start a thread on futile efforts to give yourself a warm an fuzzy feeling.
Had you not allowed the yellow jackets to kill a hive and saved the money spent on warming the great outdoors. You could afford another package complete with the problems mother nature eliminated for you.


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## warmbees (Mar 4, 2014)

Wow!!! 

Not interested in further banter... Apologies to OP and the group.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I'm curious Gladiolus, about your wintering room......
What are your deminsions, and how many hives do you have in there??? And have you been doing it for very long?
I assume you have an entrance from the inside, not the outside, to service or check the hives mid winter or do you have a steady enough hand to "not look" untill spring..LOL I need to work on that...
You have to be fairly close to Ian so your wx must be very simular...Would be gratefull for more info....

==McBee7==

ps, I just checked the map and see your fairly close to Bush84 in Brainard....I thought Motley was on the ND boarder...sorry... I think my son played hockey in Motley...


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

McBee7 said:


> I'm curious Gladiolus, about your wintering room......
> What are your deminsions, and how many hives do you have in there??? And have you been doing it for very long?
> I assume you have an entrance from the inside, not the outside, to service or check the hives mid winter or do you have a steady enough hand to "not look" untill spring..LOL I need to work on that...
> You have to be fairly close to Ian so your wx must be very simular...Would be gratefull for more info....
> ...


I actually moved this past summer and have not had a chance to change my location. I live close to Alexandria, mn now.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Send a PM request to moderator Barry to change the location in your profile. There are no user options for modifying your location, so the PM is the only way to change that.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ok all have to give an update. Popped in to check on my bees today. Experience tells me that this is about the time that my bees have historically started to run out of honey and really eat away at their mountain camp sugar. So I decided to just pop the top and see how much sugar they had left. I a, happy to report that they still had a significant amount of sugar left. I should have hefted the hives but forgot. I have never checked weights but I know for certain that they have a lot of sugar left. I also note that there are more bees in these hives than I have ever had in February. This is my fourth winter keeping bees and my bees have never looked better this time of year. I am very pumped! I am very pleased with my results and can't wait for this summer. 

So now I am back to contemplating what to do in spring. Accuweather says that march is supposed to getting into the 40s. If I start getting consistent 40s I may take them out so they can relieve themselves and start flying.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't know your local weather in March.
If there is the occasional Spring chills then I would wait a bit.
Temp. maybe in the 40s but still chilly at night. What to do when the temp.
gets below 40 then?


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

your bees fly at 40far? Amazing! Mines just do it around 50far.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> your bees fly at 40far? Amazing! Mines just do it around 50far.


There is a 20 degree temperature swing on forecasts. If our weather is consistently in the 40's we could see a 20 degree day or a 60 degree day. Snow, rain, hail and thunderstorms and an occasional wind storm.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Acebird said:


> If our weather is consistently in the 40's we could see a 20 degree day or a 60 degree day.


Thank you Ace. I realized better now. Some strains of bees work at lower temperatures than others. My usually only come out if we are 50far or a little more and tailwind .


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

My bees may or may not fly far in the 40s. It all depends on what the rest of the weather is doing. No wind and bright sun will encourage them to come out and play, especially if the temp is in the high 40s


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## Millenia (Apr 8, 2014)

Mine fly in the 40s if the sun is shining. Not enmasse but they are still flying.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Glad to hear your bees are doing so well Bush 84 
Mine are still "keepin on"
I was just doing some rough estimates of what it cost me for electricity for this little endevor and here are my rough findings....I really don't know what I'm paying per Kilowat Hour but I'll say 20cents per KWH. My heater is 500watt so if it runs continually it will consume 1/2KWH or 10cents per hour. But my heater only runs about 25% of the time so now I'm down to 2 1/2cents per hour...Times 24 hours per day =60cents. times 30 days per month=$18 per month, times 5 months =$90 per indoor wintering season....I have 15 nuc hives inside for a cost of $6 per hive....So my conclusion is that if I save only one more hive in this process it'll pay for the energy needs and think of the savings in what it costs to overwinter on an extra 50 pounds of honey per hive for outdoor wintering, granted that this all applies if it is succesfull (we will know in less than 60 days) and there is a risk in putting them in the long dark day but there is also a comparabe risk in setting them out under a snow bank for 5 months and hopping for the best.....Long range forcast shows a LARGE warming trend for the next 6 weeks into flying weather and I've got my fingerrs crossed and checking out the out yards for the posibilities of success in the "indoor wintering" endevor 

==McBee7==


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

McBee7 said:


> So my conclusion is that if I save only one more hive in this process it'll pay for the energy needs and think of the savings in what it costs to overwinter on an extra 50 pounds of honey per hive for outdoor wintering,


How did you conclude that they will eat 50# more honey when your trial is not over?


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

These 5/5 and 5/5/5 Nucs were what I would consider heavy, entering the wintering shed, and I expect some will have plenty of honey left as they enter spring. some preliminary numbers say that they are burning about 8pounds of stores per month and in 5 months will consume about 40# of stores each. Indoor wintering is based on a central maintained temp of about 40deg.F and above this temp the bees become more active and consume more stores,,,also if the temp drops below this temperature, the bees consume more stores to keep the cluster warm....so they are at their most economical at this central temp...If I outdoor wintered these hives I'm sure they would consume considerably more stores, and the 50 additional pounds mentioned is just a guess on my part, of the additional stores needed. I have heard several on this forum talk about leaving 2 deeps of stores for outdoor wintering and some leave considerably more...So if one were to leave an extra 50# to outdoor winter them you would have an additional $125 ($2.50 per pound) in stores invested per hive times 15 hives = an extra $1875 to try to take them through winter....So this only amplifies the economy of the indoor wintering option......
These nucs were started in may/june and no honey was harvested from any hives, a considerable amount of the honey was from buckwheat which my family isn't fond of, so the bees got it all  I'm sure some would disagree  at one point I had to decide if I would make them into 10 frame hives or super as nucs and I supered them but in retrospect I would have tryed to keep them in 5/5 only and next year I hope to try 5/5s and single 5s indoor. I think the economics will improve even more especially as hive density increases in the same said "shed" but now I'm getting ahead of myself,,LOL 
PS--I just realized that the 6 week warming trend in the weather in my last post is SPRING by any another name lolol...

==McBee7==


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

McBee7 said:


> So if one were to leave an extra 50# to outdoor winter them you would have an additional $125 ($2.50 per pound) in stores invested per hive


If this number is correct why bother to overwinter them? This is past the cost of new hives in the spring.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

:scratch: Ace, have you priced sugar recently? :s

50 lbs of sugar around here might be $25 or so. Sugar is a _reasonable _substitute for honey for winter bee food.

Hard to believe that you don't know that already. :kn:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Sugar is a _reasonable _substitute for honey for winter bee food.


I think when sugar is substituted for honey the loses increase. Can you use it as an emergency feed? Of course.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I think when sugar is substituted for honey the loses increase. Can you use it as an emergency feed? Of course.


http://beeinformed.org/2014/06/feeding-honeybees-honey-may-increase-mortality/


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> First, it doesn’t matter what carbohydrates you choose to feed your honeybees, you are either not improving their chances of survival or you are damaging their chances of survival. Those who do not feed are achieving as good or better survival rates.


I agree.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, Ace, your quote is irrelevant to the issue of over-wintering bees. The bees MUST HAVE CARBOHYDRATES to live. No sugar/honey means dead bees for sure! 

Or are you going to dispute that statement as well? :s


Your quote essentially says that sugar is a _substitute _for honey, but not necessarily _better _than honey.


Which is where we started! :lpf:


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ace bird, I would argue that I hate having to travel multiple hours to pick up packages. In fact I am straight up sick of buying packages. If I can winter my own hives I can rear queens and truly become free of buying bees.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Fact is honey is taken for revenue, sugar is fed to backfill stores. Sugar is cheaper than honey and better to winter on indoors than honey. Consumption may be less, and smaller gives can make through long winters. 
Sounds like you have things figured out!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> Sugar is cheaper than honey and better to winter on indoors than honey.


I get it. Your advice is to take all the honey you can and load them up on sugar for indoor wintering. Do you give them back any honey when it is flying weather?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I agree.


Where does the following text come from? 

"First, it doesn’t matter what carbohydrates you choose to feed your honeybees, you are either not improving their chances of survival or you are damaging their chances of survival. Those who do not feed are achieving as good or better survival rates."

I know that Acebird agrees with the statement but I'm curious to know the origin...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> I get it. Your advice is to take all the honey you can and load them up on sugar for indoor wintering. Do you give them back any honey when it is flying weather?


no, I feed them sugar if needed. Around here usually when bees are flying they are gathering nectar >>>honey. we fill in the early dearth with sugar. I do believe you are over thinking the honey for food issue


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> no, I feed them sugar if needed.


You made a statement that sugar is better to overwinter on so I am surprised you would let them have honey. Makes me think you don't believe what you said.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> Where does the following text come from?


From the link preceding my post.
http://beeinformed.org/2014/06/feeding-honeybees-honey-may-increase-mortality/


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## gladiolus (Dec 12, 2014)

For indoor wintering Syrup is better. Both supply carbs but syrup has a lot less ash to fill up their guts and hold until April or there about.
Outside honey is a lot better but that is outside. This thread is MY INSIDE WINTERING SETUP


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> You made a statement that sugar is better to overwinter on so I am surprised you would let them have honey. Makes me think you don't believe what you said.



Haha ha, do you know what I even said !? Ha ha ha
I have nearly 1000 in there, I kinda know the jist of things involved with indoor wintering


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Ah yes .... more on indoor wintering _follies_ in this this amusing thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304642-Bees-Only-Heat-the-Cluster-Not-the-Hive/page10


:gh:


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## gladiolus (Dec 12, 2014)

Gotta agree with Ian. Been there done that.

There is always a troll or second year bee haver that knows better


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

While people squabble I am just giddy at the fact that my bees are so healthy. I believe that if things continue I will be in for a good year!


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Not only that but the the more hives I build up to the more efficient this will be. The more hives I put in this shed the more heat that will be generated by each hive. Not only that but also consider that I will spend x amount of money heating this shed whether I have one hive or 30 hives. So as I build up my apiary I will spend less money per hive on heat. Also consider that until this year my winter survival has been abysmal. Without a great winter survival rate how can I build my apiary and get decent honey harvests? So if all goes well then continuing to winter my hives in a shed is a no brainier. I don't so much look at it from a business viewpoint. I look at it from the viewpoint of wanting a self sustaining apiary with 6-10 hives. I cannot achieve that without successful wintering. If I can achieve a consistent and successful winter survival rate then things like queen rearing and creating nucs becomes a reality. I can then really expand my beekeeping practice from there.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

BeeCurious said:


> Where does the following text come from?
> 
> "First, it doesn’t matter what carbohydrates you choose to feed your honeybees, you are either not improving their chances of survival or you are damaging their chances of survival. Those who do not feed are achieving as good or better survival rates."
> 
> I know that Acebird agrees with the statement but I'm curious to know the origin...





Acebird said:


> From the link preceding my post.
> http://beeinformed.org/2014/06/feeding-honeybees-honey-may-increase-mortality/


I wonder if a majority of contributors to the Bee Informed Partnership surveys, BIP directors, advisory board members or tech transfer team members would agree with Don Studinski's "guest author" blog entry?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Dan your going to find the opposite when increasing hive numbers. Helping heat the shed is good, but heating is not my main focus on maintaining the shed. Its ventilation and cooling. As spring arrives, sometime within days, being able to keep those bees in that box is the main focus.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

'Don Studinski, dba Honeybee Keep, is a permaculture enthusiast and member of the board of directors at Living Systems Institute (LSI) where he applies permaculture philosophy to beekeeping. Honeybee Keep manages Colorado's first Certified Naturally'

Please Acebird go post in the EarthMuffin section. The post you quoted falls in the category of 'I found it on the internet it must be true.'


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ian said:


> Dan your going to find the opposite when increasing hive numbers. Helping heat the shed is good, but heating is not my main focus on maintaining the shed. Its ventilation and cooling. As spring arrives, sometime within days, being able to keep those bees in that box is the main focus.


That is one thing I don't quite understand about indoor wintering. Why must we still keep them indoors when it warms up? Why can't we just take them outside?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Bush_84 said:


> That is one thing I don't quite understand about indoor wintering. Why must we still keep them indoors when it warms up? Why can't we just take them outside?


we do, but mild spells through the last spell of winter sometimes make indoor wintering challenging. Sometimes its warm enough to put them out for a bit, but then cold resumes. When I say warm spells, Im taking about 10 degreesC and over, and when I say cold resumes, I mean -20 degreesC.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Ian, or anyone else that has overwintered indoor,,,could you give some hints/clues as to when to move them outside? This part seems to be fairly tricky,,, to soon and they might get hung up on brood,,to late and you have beemagadon in a space 4ft by 14 feet  ....Is it as simple as "you put them out when you cant control the top end of the wintering temp envelope" I have a feeling that the bees know what time of the year it is even without the aid of the sun and natural temperatures....like a 6th scence,,,,, the temps for the next month here has a lot of 30s and 40s and bumping into the 50s a few times and I don't want to be behind the 8ball or unprepared when the time is right...

==McBee7==


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm right there with you. Unless I am missing something I'd rather put them out earlier than later. Just because I shield them from winter doesn't mean that they can't handle one cold snap does it?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Bush_84 said:


> Unless I am missing something I'd rather put them out earlier than later.


Do you have to put them out? Can't you just open the barn door and let them fly when it is warm and close it back up when it is cold?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Earl, it looks like this next week is going to be milder. One thing about nucs is that they are less likely to get hung up on brood and isolated from the honey than those in 10 frame boxes. However, in your neck of the woods mother nature can turn on a dime and then back to freezing temps. How much work is it to get the front panels off your shed as a compromise?


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Thanks for the input Adrian, and I'm thinking that maybe by the end of the month, when I can't control the highs in the shed, it will be "The Time" to set them out....As far as taking off the side of my shed, I'm looking at it as an emergency excape hatch,,,My shed is probably more suited for opening up as a matter of normal procedure, than B84s set up , but I don't want to test out that with my whole bee herd, in case there is a orientation problem related to sun angles and shadows generated by the shed and the angle of the sun as it moves. I would hate to lose the herd now after a 5 month wait...I still would like to try out the european beehause angle but will do it when I don't have so much at risk....
When I do set them out I'm figuring on putting in some type of sugar supplement in case that is more desirable for the bees to use than honey (more accesable) and also pollen patties to get them cranking again...
I trust your NUC herd is doing well and am waiting for another of your videos, I always enjoy them...Are yours flying, are you feeding, are they brooding up, have you opened them up yet to clean bottom boards and take inventory ? your weather isn't that far removed from what I've got...OH, and yes I know -too many questions- I've been told that as you get older you have more answers than questions- At this rate I'll be 180 when I go haha...

==McBee7==

PS-20 sheetrock type screws (torx, acessable from the outside) will remove the whole side of the shed..


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Do you have to put them out? Can't you just open the barn door and let them fly when it is warm and close it back up when it is cold?


How would you expect the bees to navigate their way back to their respective hives?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I bug my neighbours all the time asking what their move out plans are when spring arrives. 
What you want is to try to predict the onset of warmth. You want to get them out and start that growth. Once they start brooding you don't want cold to resume. Your better to leave them in their 'dormant' state through periods of cold than try to brood through them. The bees can hold on for a terribly long time until they start mining fat stores away for brood production. I see it like soon as I set my hives out, that time clock starts. 
So the trick is to best match the two time clocks up... The how long can they hold inside time clock ( mine are 4 1/2 months inside now ) and the when is best to start spring brood production time clock. 

I'll re enforce that point with my last two spring experiences. 

Two years in a row now we have experienced long winters ( the bees were held over 5 months) and when we finally set them out it was 1 month of too cold to brood weather. First winter I lost 40%, 25% of that loss was spring dwindling. Lots of outdoor wintering losses hit around 75%. Second winter losses were 25%, 15% of that spring dwindling. 
I did the best with what I had through that tough weather, I lined my time clocks the best I could. Beekeepers who decided to set hives out later seen more losses from the shed and Beekeepers who set out too soon seen more dwindling losses. 

That's a simplistic way to look at it but it should give you a jist of what your trying to achieve. 

Ideally, set them out on frost ( frozen ground) to wake to a calm overcast morning, sun prevailing by mid afternoon with 15 degreeC of warmth. And the next three weeks starting with night time lows no colder than -1 and highs over 10, gradually warming to night time lows of 5-10. Ideally. It's generally those night time lows that dictate the rate of early spring time growth. 
But realistically I'm happy with starting night time lows around -5 and happy to have them in fly able weather for the first week. It takes me three long evenings to get them all out


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Ian, great informative post. Earl, I operate on a "do-not-disturb" basis for the most part. I know that most of them are alive, and I'll put out a video on a good flying day. I am waiting for a few warm days in the 40's before I weigh them as I don't want the inside ice to mess up the data. I will scrape the bottom boards as I weigh them for accuracy. Most of their weights were pretty good going into winter. I want to weigh them to get the data as I will be giving a talk at the Minnesota Hobby Beekeepers Ass'n next month and I think the data is useful. I will plan on feeding sugar slush if I have to - depends on how long spring takes to get here.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Seems to me that there can be high risk in the early spring. It doesn't happen very often, however there can be a late snow and cold spell with minus 10-15C temps. This is devastating for a hive with no insulation. Think the risk is so great that few commercials bee keepers in this area keep 100% of their hives indoors. 

I also question the practice of taking insulated wraps off in late April/early May. I know there are manpower crunches, re-wrapping pains, and this is window to do this work but the risk can be huge. However, there is risk of the cold snap and you miss out on the large and early population build up that leaving the insulated wraps on till at least mid May affords.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> How would you expect the bees to navigate their way back to their respective hives?


Why wouldn't they orient to the hive before they leave?


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Couple of things to add to what Ian said. 

It is nice to have several warm days (15C) after the bees have been moved out. Bees will often fly to defecate and then land of the ground. If the day does not warm up many of them don't make it back. Calm is also nice because drifting can be a problem on a windy day.

Feeding some liquid syrup as soon as the bees are out is very important. If they don't have liquid syrup around the brood next, smaller hives starve very quickly after several days of colder weather.

Only run the exhaust fan if the temperatures outside are cooler than indoors.

If it is getting too warm in the wintering shed shoveling in snow (or putting container with snow in) cools the wintering shed quickly.

I think there are more advantages to leaving the bees in a little longer. I usually move my bees out April 7-10. Last 2 years after April 20 I know Ian was a couple weeks earlier than me last year). Both those years my bees were in the shed 6 months or a bit more. Some years has been mid March.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

mgolden said:


> Seems to me that there can be high risk in the early spring. It doesn't happen very often, however there can be a late snow and cold spell with minus 10-15C temps. This is devastating for a hive with no insulation. Think the risk is so great that few commercials bee keepers in this area keep 100% of their hives indoors.


Personally I think Chinooks are potentially more challenging than spring cold spells for Alberta beekeepers. Ends up being simpler and cheaper to winter outdoors. Plus the Chinooks give the bees time to reorganize. You tend not to have the 6 week sustained cold spell we have in Manitoba.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Allen Martens said:


> Personally I think Chinooks are potentially more challenging than spring cold spells for Alberta beekeepers. Ends up being simpler and cheaper to winter outdoors. Plus the Chinooks give the bees time to reorganize. You tend not to have the 6 week sustained cold spell we have in Manitoba.


A rough estimate is that only 1/3 of Alberta gets the warming of Chinooks. But you're right that the warming would be a challenge to indoor. Suspect one would need supplemental cooling.

I suspect that a snap cold spell would cause severe losses and financial damage. Although it does not happen all that often, the risk seems to me as too much.

Do you not run the risk of a severe late cold snap in southern Manitoba and severe damage to unwrapped/uninsulated brooded hives?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Why wouldn't they orient to the hive before they leave?


They won't have the benefit of direct UV rays...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> They won't have the benefit of direct UV rays...


Please explain. If you put a poly carbonate sheet of plastic in front of your hive the bees can't find it?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Please explain. If you put a poly carbonate sheet of plastic in front of your hive the bees can't find it?


Inside a building? Behind several rows of hives stacked on pallets? 

Of course not!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> Inside a building? Behind several rows of hives stacked on pallets?
> 
> Of course not!


I thought they navigated by inferred and smell. Both of these would work in the dark and inside a building.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> I thought they navigated by inferred and smell. Both of these would work in the dark and inside a building.


Nope


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Inside a dark building they just crawl. They cannot fly like it is
during the sunny day otherwise they would become the nocturnal bees. I
don't think I want any of those around. Remember that Ian overwinter his
bees inside a big warehouse. Would not bee fun if they all flying around with nothing
to do all winter long. Besides, it is cold in there too.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Bees can't navigate inside even with lighting. During the summer production season we use windows as stray bee collectors. Bees fly towards the light. When doors are opened and cluster outside the door.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

mgolden said:


> Do you not run the risk of a severe late cold snap in southern Manitoba and severe damage to unwrapped/uninsulated brooded hives?


Can happen at times. I have seen temps into the -20C at times. Sometime even May will have 4 or 5 days where the temperature don't go above 0C. The severe cold or prolong cold can be hard on the bees if they don't have liquid feed around the brood nest. The small hives (that probably should not be kept anyway) often don't make, the medium hives have a bit of chill brood, and the big hives don't miss a beat.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> If you put a poly carbonate sheet of plastic in front of your hive the bees can't find it?


Here you go, Ace ....
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...on&p=1163697&highlight=greenhouse#post1163697
... first hand account from _Lauri_, + photos 

Note in that first photo that there are _no ends_ on that structure.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ok so next question. I noticed a few bees outside my shed today. I think they found a crack at the bottom of the door. So I opened the door figuring there is only three hives in there. They can relieve themselves and no problem. Looking at the forecast it is supposed to be great weather for the foreseeable forecast. I figure it's time to do something. I can either leave the doors open or move them out to their summer position. Their witer shed is ~75 yards from their summer location. Would simply leaving doors open until I get time be problematic due to orientation flights? I think I had just better do the deed.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I don't really know what the access looks like when you say open the door, but if it is arranged the way I think it is, opening the door will be problematic. They will not find their way back into the building. Id move them out if you feel the weather is favourable.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian post #71


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> Ian post #71


Michael, with one or two hives like that and the amount of light entering the shed, they probaby would make it back but then why not just move them out? One one or two hives, 5 min job


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ian said:


> Michael, with one or two hives like that and the amount of light entering the shed, they probaby would make it back but then why not just move them out? One one or two hives, 5 min job


Laziness and a lot of other jobs around the house. But ya I need to get it done.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Bush_84 said:


> Laziness and


Ha ha ha ha, most times I try to do the bare minimum aswell. But when its go time... hint hint


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I had the same problem today B84...lol...The shed is good at keeping out old man winter but not so much for spring...Outside temp today was near 50 and the next 2 weeks look to be the same/ with nitetime temps just below freezing, some nites above freezing....couldn't get temp in the shed below 60 and relitive humidity was above 60 and rising...SSSSOOOOOO....

I moved out half today and will probably move out the rest tomarrow...little difference between the control temp in the shed and mother nature so its time for the girls to meet Mr. Sunshine.....Only got stung twice and no smoke and thousands of bees in the air,,,kind of like when there's a flow on...lol..they found their places again as the sun set so all is well.....There were 2 hives that had obviously starved out ,,Very light,, but the rest are full of bees,,My survival rate so far is about 86 % I'm not sure how I missed those light hives but I'm very pleased with what I see with the other 13 hives...
--Can I count my chickens yet:  LOL

==McBee7==


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ya I took the opportunity early this am when the sun gave me just enough light to bring them out. It worked out well because there were only a couple of bees that went airborne. So far my three hives are doing great. Still felt heavy enough to be a pain to move.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

No, no chicken counting yet.
Still have March and April to go.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

HA, HA,,,,Thanks beepro for keepin it real...  I promise I wont count any chickens untill maybe May 1,,,,yeah May Day,,,deal 

==McBee7==


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

A lot of feces and orienting going on today. A few girls meandering about.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Congratulations Dan! They made it  And they look great....I've put some sugar and pollen on mine untill something starts blooming and it wont take long with the temps that are forcast for Mn....I've been told I cant count chickens yet  but it sure feels good to not have to buy bees again...

==McBee7==


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Earl, remember to never tell your neighbors what those little brown spots are...


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Lol Ya my son thought it was hilarious that they were out to defecate.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Moved the last 6 hives out of the shed today. Had to work fast to get them onto my truck and haul them to "Hay Henge" Before they finished orientation flights....

Its about 20 miles so I didn't want to draw this thing out to lone,,,this is where I've got 3 hives that survived outside this winter....There's still snow on the ground but today its in the mid 40s and tomarrow will be in the 50s so it was time to finish the move....By monday the snow will probably be gone....Talk about a quick change,,2 weeks ago it was -30F. I think March has come in like a lamb, so need to watch out for the going out like a lion....At this rate if I start feeding now, by May 1 these hives will be ready to roar, what a year and its just starting 
And Adrian- my old neighbor is a garnener and loves the bees, but he says he isn't going to tell his wife..LOL..

==McBee7==


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

With our cruddy November we were due a nice spring.


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## MikeBanyai (Jan 16, 2015)

I have read all I can including this entire thread. I have not seen anything about a setup a friend of mine uses. With a smallish group of hives, say 10 to 20, he vents each hive outside his shed with 1 inch PVC pipe so that the bees can decide to fly or not and still make it back to the hive in the very early spring. There are no hive openings into the shed. Has anyone an opinion or experience with such? I realize that it is not for the 1000 hive setup. His shed is insulated 8x12 and he does heat it with a loop from the hot water wood boiler that he uses for his house. He also uses a top feeder that he can resupply as needed without letting the bees loose in the shed. Last winter he succeeded with 10/10.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

My biggest concern with that setup would be where the bees are orienting to. When I moved my hives I had a few bees fly back to the shed. If you give the bees free accessess outside I'd worry about how many bees would be confused and go back to the shed once they are in summer position. I have no experience with this setup however. Maybe somebody else can speak to that.


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## MikeBanyai (Jan 16, 2015)

It does seem that quite a few bees are lost inside the buildings from what I have seen, but you have a good point. thanks for the info


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I thought I would post an update to this Indoor Wintering thread. It has been a year since this was started and I've made some changes to my indoor shed for the winter of 2015/16....first I made a shelf on the outside wall to set the hives on and make extended bottom boards to let the bees have an outside entrance throughout the winter.


I was able to get 13 nucs inside this year and I had much easier access to the hives plus the bees could fly when the weather was warm at will and they wern't dependant on me to get them out on the perfect day in spring...



and outside I added a landing board and roof to keep the rain and snow off the landing board and of course the grand daughter wanted individual roofs for each hive soo tthe bees would know which house was theirs,,,I think I need to work on that  The styrofoam plugs the gaps between the hives and keeps the heat in..



I didnt have time to adiquitly treat for mites last fall and lost 6 of these to mites, but I'm thankfull to say I wont have to buy bees this year and have started the first treatment of OAV for tthe year....
I'm hoping Bush84 and some of the others could comment on their year and changes or thoughts going into 2016...

==McBee7==


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Looks good
Any thoughts on inside / outside temps and hive activity? 
I'm told if the indoor temps are too high influencing a loose cluster when outdoor temps are cold, the bees will fly out and die. Any truth to that?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Ian, either somebody is lying to you or have
that kind of bees that I don't want to keep.
I once saw a bee that came out during the middle of
our mild winter but still cold below the 40s. She tested
the air for awhile and then decided to go inside again. From
my experience even though the hive inside is warmer than the outside
temperature they will not take flight unless really need to go. Either
that or I got the really smart bees that don't want to die in the cold
winter time. In our mild winter they will not form a cluster.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Yes, I believe you are right about the loose cluster. I have a better temperature controler this winter and kept the temp at 40F, within a 3 to 4 deg range, but I definately had some (lots) of flyers that met their maker mid winter....I might add that I don't think there were more than last year --totally enclosed and in the dark...
One huge differance I did notice in that reguard, is that last years inside bees were totally from a commercial beek in NoDak who winters in potato sheds in Idaho..This years (winters) bees were dirivitives from them and I also had 4 hives that I had boughten caucatian (russian) queens.....None of the russians perished from overactivity or flying outside or mites.....I will breed more from these survivors...I couldn't tell most of the winter if they were alive or not, and I didn't dig into the hives. When they were ready and the outside (entrance) temps and outside daylight (in entrance) was right, they appeared in the top of the box...They still have stores...
I also started raising the temp in the shed after valentines day to see if they would start raising more brood...They did...most are brimming with brood and I may have to add a 3rd box before I get them outside...Indoor temp is now 50F . That was the intent and now I have to step up my plan for some good populations in early spring and all that it entails....
I'm also wondering BeePro if I can now count my chickens yet for last springs overwinter survivors yet ...LOL.. ?

==McBee7==


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

A steady 50F is the advantage you have with this set up. If I were you I'd leave them in this arrangement until your night time lows stabalize over freezing. 

There was a beekeeper in Alaska thst experimented with this idea of a bee house which allowed him to winter successfully while making up a surplus population to sell local packages. He worked an indoor outdoor efficiency ratio which maintained a consistent brooding cluster but still maked the bees hold a cluster so that they did not carelessly fly out into the cold.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Ian said:


> A steady 50F is the advantage you have with this set up. If I were you I'd leave them in this arrangement until your night time lows stabalize over freezing.
> 
> There was a beekeeper in Alaska thst experimented with this idea of a bee house which allowed him to winter successfully while making up a surplus population to sell local packages. He worked an indoor outdoor efficiency ratio which maintained a consistent brooding cluster but still maked the bees hold a cluster so that they did not carelessly fly out into the cold.


There was an Albertan in the early eighties who published an article in the ABJ about putting bees on the night shift and raised temps during darkness hours and letting the tempfall during daylight. The HBW GUY in Swalwell knew him and said he was the only one that could make it work.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, now is the time to count your chickens!
Consider that your weather does not affect the bees like in CO now.
Though don't forget to check on the mites either. They may crash the
hives at the first hatch. Give them some patty subs to help them along.
Bees that brood up early over the winter require lots of food to keep on going.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I only read about this, so it's not something I do, but as I understood it, keeping the hive in a clustered state was the trick. He used a indoor outdoor ratio which determined how warm to keep the indoor temps. 
Vance, do you know if there is a link to that article?


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Thanks Ian and Vance and BeePro for that info, I would love to read more about that. I know some of those nucs could be split now and have time to build out before setting them outside--Of course the problem would be queens. I could get some mail order brides,, as it is deffinately to cold for local queens, and drones arn't on the radar yet...
I started making pollen sub available mid Feb. BeePro ,when I started bumping up the temp and of course made sure they had sugar blocks so they wouldn't starve, I've also learned to make my own sub for econamy sake..
I have a feeder rim on them made of 1 by 4s, and on the russians, when I lift the quilt box on top to check their food, the nurse bees cover everything and festoon off the quilt box--LOTs of baby bees in there....

==McBee7==


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Hey all. Sorry to grave dig my topic but I felt compelled to update this. I have now had this setup for a few years. I can tell you that I have not had a single winter loss since wintering indoors. I'm by no means an expert but this is working out for me. 

As of now I am arranging my hives in a semi circle. Pointed towards the door. I open the doors a couple of times a winter for cleansing flights. I am going all in on nucs this year. So I will be wintering more in this shed this coming winter. I may stack nucs on top of the production hives simply as a space saving measure. 

I interestingly had one hive come out of this shed HUGE! Three 8 frame deeps with drones. Yes drones. No light. Zero. No flight. So no pollen but yet still they filled up three deeps and made drones. I don't pretend to understand that why but it's exciting to see. 

I do have to perform some further upkeep. My insulation needs some redoing due to mice. Otherwise the heating and ventilation systems have been working well.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I kept two nucs in an unheated garage last winter, and one before that. The entrances adapt to a vinyl tube going to a window-mounted landing board.

Our winters got 'nuttin' on MN winters. But we, too, not only had survival of the nucs, they came out strong. This year the two nucs were stronger than the outdoor hives. In fact, one of them, after moving it to a full size hive a month ago, just tried to swarm. The queen was caught in time, and is back in the garage in a nuc again.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

My shed is 100% dark. When I first set it up I took extraordinary lengths to make it pitch black. My garage would never be pitch black. My garage is also not heated nor insulated. So my garage would not make for a great spot. Glad it works for you though.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Bush_84 said:


> My shed is 100% dark. When I first set it up I took extraordinary lengths to make it pitch black. My garage would never be pitch black. My garage is also not heated nor insulated. So my garage would not make for a great spot. Glad it works for you though.


My setup is nothing like the way-up-north dark sheds. They're really outdoor nucs with a really superb windbreak. With the outdoor entrances I don't need to worry about bees loose in the garage. Mostly.


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