# Going commercial



## Brunswick Beeworks (Sep 29, 2004)

I run a small apiary in middle Tennessee and have been bee keeping for five years. I am entertaining growing the business and ultimately going full time with the bees. In your experiences, what is the minimum number of hives you have to have to make a go of it. I have done the math based on my average harvest, potential pollination contracts, money from splits and wax products and have a fair idea but wanted to get your opinions and thoughts.


Thanks for the help.

Jeff


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Like you say, it all has to do with what kindof beekeeping your doing.
Here its 800 or so.


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Well, its not really a matter of how many hives you need to make a go of it. Its how many hives you need to replace your current income plus expenses for running those hives, and as Ian stated, it's also what kind of beekeeping you are doing. In my area I have lots of different options.

I can just produce honey. To replace my income I need 500 hives that produce 75lbs each at current wholesale prices of 1.50 per pound in my area to other beeks. That's not including my wife's income, which is considerably higher.

Or I can produce honey, and sell nucs. I split one hive into four in May, then each of those into four more in early July. Then sell those nucs for a profit of more than 1000. So if I could sell nucs in July from 40 hives each year, I can make a living. But that's unlikely to happen. Chances are I would still need 500 hives to make a living from nucs.

I could also add in pollination. My estimate is that I would still need at least 400 hives that are constantly pollinating in the spring, and then produce honey.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Just remember that it is agriculture. You will have good years, bad years, really good years and really bad years, so take that into consideration. I would go with about 20% more hives then you think you need to make a living. Honey doesn't spoil, pollen will keep a long time in the freezer, bees wax lasts a long time, and if you have a market for nucs then more hives equals more nucs so if some hives are weak or deadouts you still have hives to make up for them.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

The easiest way to figure that out is sit down and do a spreadsheet. Based on your willingness to travel, the local opportunities, and what you direction you want to go in, can mean alot.

What I mean is something like this.....

Local pollination is $45. And If you can get two crop fees, thats $90. Then if you sell a nuc off each hive, that $80 dollars. So the total on something like 500 hives would be $85,000

But you must factor in not all hives will be rented and 500 nucs is alot for a single person operation. So play with the numbers. Take into account whether you will raise queens or buy them. Then there is the frame and foundation cost for nuc building. Many things go into it. I figure if you can make $150 on 500 hives, that $75,000 But knock off $25,000 for expenses. So would or could you be willing to manage 500 hives, and will your local conditions/market handle it, for you to clear $50,000?

Are you willing to ship bees to pollination areas not local to your own? Can you take advantage of honey while still selling nucs? 

I think there is something to be said of "sidelining". Build to 100 hives and see what money can be made. Then ask yourself if you can do he same with 500.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> But you must factor in not all hives will be rented and 500 nucs is alot for a single person operation. So play with the numbers...


Yeah, and don't forget your 20-30% loss in the winter, that will eat up a hundred of those nucs.


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

*going commercial*

I do teach a commercial course to students its a yr. long for 250.00 everything you need to go commercial I can give ref. on past students.
Don


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Well said Michael.Make sure that your pecil is real sharp,and your spread 
sheet is plenty long.


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## cow pollinater (Dec 5, 2007)

What part of the business do you enjoy? I've found that less hives managed at a comfortable level is worth more than lots of hives. I am growing right now but I'm going to stop short of serious sideliner status. Any more than that and I'd be working myself to hard for less money. 
Example: I have a retail market for all of my honey as oposed to wholesale but I still have enough hives to offer some pollination. 
I can manage what I have with basic equipment and a little more work. All my bees get hauled on the back of my everyday truck.
I can take the time to sell a nuc or two for a premium price that I wouldn't get selling in bulk.
I can keep my real job and call the bees a hobby if things get out of whack.

If I were to grow to "commercial" status, I'd lose quite a bit of money!


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## Moonshae (Jun 7, 2007)

Don't forget to factor in equipment replacement, and buying the equipment/hives you need to get to your special number. If you have 20 hives, getting to 500 is going to require a pretty hefty amount of cash up front.


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Yes, equipment is the biggest investment. Most brand new hives from the major suppliers cost between 150-200, not including shipping. However, if you play it smart and build some of the smaller equipment like inner-covers, BB, etc, you get a two deep and two honey super hive for less than 100 including shipping. While that's probably not the route that most commercial guys/girls go, that is because of time, which comes a premium for them. While you are small, and have more time, you can do more things to cut down on your expenses, and maximize your investment.

A few examples, I'm a very small sideliner (less than 40 hives). I build inner covers for 4.00, Outer covers for 6.00, and BB's for 5.00 each, no shipping costs. 

I have been using starter strips to maximize my investment in foundation, but plan a switch to popcycle sticks next year.

Mite treatments: You can get rid of this with small cell/natural cell (again, popcycle sticks), or you treat with powdered sugar.

Buy used equipment.

Raise your own queens.

Learn how to overwinter nucs to replace your winter losses.

Use cement blocks as your stand. They are cheap, I get them for under a $1 each.

Buy cheap paint that was mixed to the wrong color.

Learn to repair old equipment that isn't in too bad of shape and you can get a couple more years out of them.

Repair broken frames.

Maybe we should start a thread where others can give ideas about how to save money.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

*Healthcare*

A practical consideration. Does your current job provide healthcare? If not then going fulltime versus sideline could mean going without healthcare or becoming a pauper by the time you've paid for the premiums. If you're single you might risk it, but a family man has more at stake. One way round it is to make sure the wife is working and has a family policy with you on it. Adrian


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I think Cow Pollinator makes the critical point in looking at what part of the business you like to do. We found we did not like moving bees for pollination and honey production and retail sales was our forte. We do move bees south in the fall and back in the spring but It's the one part of this I don't look forward to. If you're doing something you don't enjoy you may as well keep the day job. When beekeeping becomes a business there will be stress and "job" factors just like what you're doing now. I think I liked beekeeping best when I ran about 50 hives.

Next learn to streamline and lighten your operation any way you can. Fixing old frames and cinderblocks are methods we used early on as well. Loading, hauling and unloading 200 cinderblocks to set up 2 new yards of 25 hives ea. will become cumbersome pretty fast. Soft ground, there small footprint and trying to keep hives level will present problems during honey season. Spending 10 minutes to repair a 50 cent frame, when you set a price on your time won't pan out in the long run either. Copy success, check with other commercial beekeepers and see what they are using for foundation, set up and transporting hives, processing and selling honey (retail or wholesale). Do what you do best, if you're good at raising queens and enjoy it focus on that but don't put all your eggs in one basket. Have other income options available or in use as well. Always save for the rainy day because it will come. Two of the best moves we made were a chain uncapper and a clarifying tank with a honey pump and a couple of large capacity bottling tanks (keeping in mind we sell all our honey retail and someone doing pollination and selling honey wholesale may have different needs). Think about your yard work and what "signs" would cause you to stop and check a hive for problems and what "signs' tell you a hive is doing OK. You will have less time to manage in the hives on an individual basis. I think gettin more production from less hives is a better plan, at least it has been for us. We use 2 queen management, collect pollen and propolis and actually have a market for both dead bees and wax moth larve. Involve your family. We have developed a large product base and specialize in distinctive tastes, aroma's and product effectiveness with everything being produced within the family. My wife has spent years working on perfecting recipies for hand creme's, lip balms, tinctures, soaps, and herb infused honeys. She enjoys the fact her products have become so popular and it has doubled our average sale from when we started. Pay attention to details, customers will notice sticky jars, crooked labels and crystals in honey. My kids grew up in the business and my youngest son is now an exceptional beekeeper @ 17 and is extremely proud he now manages our highest producing market oulet. He likes his paycheck every week as well. My oldest daughter (27) is out of the Air Force in January and coming home to come "back" into the business after 8 years away. Her husband of 7 years said it's all she has talked about since they were married. The family connection is a huge reward and makes the job that much better. It is one of the major rewards that makes me push on.

Find ways to save money within your operation. We drive over 2500 miles a month so we spent about $2000 converting our 1 ton diesel to waste Vegtable Oil (includes processing and collection equipment) and appreicate a huge savings. The system will be paid for 3-4 months and we'll be cutting around a $1000 off our monthly expenses. I love the fact we're virutally oil indendant, green and saving money. On a busy Friday when we're getting ready for markets it isn't fun though when I'm behind, trying to heat oil and push it through filtering, covered with with goo and chasing the dog off. Our next project is going to be an energy efficient designed for use honey house using thermal mass to offset most of the heating costs. Ben Franklin was right when he said a penny saved is a penny earned, save pennies everywhere you can. 

Insurance is extremely important. I gave my notice last week at a $50,000+ a year job with full benefits to finally do what I want with who I want to do it with. Our replacement insurance will be over $1000 a month. I have spent years planning, learning and saving to get to this point. I'm glad I waited because if I had made many of the mistakes and miscalculations (and I've made some whoppers) I had over the past 10 years of wanting to make the jump I'd be back at work for someone else by now and my bees would be a back yard hobby.

Keep in mind the law of diminishing returns highlights the fact the more you do the less you will get from your effort per unit. Focus on doing as much of the work as you can within your family as the same law clearly shows no (or at least few) paid employees will be as productive as you and they seldom will work for the wage you sometimes will since they may not get the personal reward. Realize that a gross income of $10,000 a month is not YOUR income and someone will always have a hand out for money. You'll be amazed at how much it really costs to be an independant farmer.

Finally concentrate on running a good good bee business, not getting rich, and the money end will come in it's own time. I've had a hundred "good ideas" that didn't pan out but led me to experiance, places and contacts that did. 

We only get one chance at life. Some friends raise all kinds of ugly scenario's when I counseled with them. When talking about this with a friend who does hospice, her advice was to go for it. She stated the most common regret she heard from people who's time was up that that what they regretted most was not going for something in life they really wanted to because of fear. Be smart, plan, and be prepared to accept whatever comes. For me I've found my dream and am going it with every thing I've got..

Good Luck!


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*I work half days.*

One thing that I never see mentioned is the part about HARD PHYSICAL LABOR!
One of my design objectives of my outfit is having no employees.
I want to have as many hives as I can manage properly but not pay for labor.
This has penciled out very well, but often equals hard, hard work.
Do you enjoy hard physical labor?
You will be pulling honey supers all day long in the hot sun, day after day.
You will be lifting and setting aside 80# boxes to install medication and then lifting them back on. ALL DAY LONG. DAY AFTER DAY!
6 and 7 days most weeks during summer and fall.
Full time beekeeping, run lean & mean is very hard physical work.
Someone put it really well:

"When you start you own small business, the first thing you realize is that you now will be working half-days.....

......the trick therein, is deciding WHICH 12 hours of each day you want to work!!!"


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Harry vanderpool*

U Gotta Love it1

Harry I couldn't agree more. After a few weeks it's a long way down to that line between the two brood chambers. 
I am making a lot of noises I didn't use to make.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*How well do you get along with yourself?*

Well then, here is another thought for those considering full time commercial beekeeping:
Do you enjoy your own company?
I went from people surrounding me all day in my previous job, to almost total isolation as a beekeeper.
For me; I have always been about an 85% loner anyway, so I do O.K.
But for the last 3 years, I have had the daily association with the 3 stooges: me, myself & I.
You finish each day by loading the truck for the next day.
You get up in the A.M. and head out to the bees BY YOURSELF and go to work.
Thank heavens for radio! I listen to the radio all day long to keep company as I work.
I'm not trying to be a downer. I love what I do.
But I just want to bring up what I see that could be a surprise for those that want to go full time.
Beekeeping is a job. It is a job that I love.
And it is a hard job.
It is not a "Get Rich Sceme", or utopia. Its a job.
And as Tom Laury stated, "You got to love it".
Otherwise forget the whole idea.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

HarryVanderpool said:


> You will be lifting and setting aside 80# boxes to install medication and then lifting them back on. ALL DAY LONG. DAY AFTER DAY!


Hey Harry...rather than lift them down off the hive, and then back up...tip them up and stand them on end on the hive body below, add your medication, and set the box back down. Don't lift it twice, there's no need.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>part about HARD PHYSICAL LABOR!


Ya, also try to find a good worker, who doesnt mind getting stung, who is capable of lifting heavey boxes and hives, and will work long hours and weekends during peak times,


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

It really helps if you think you are Gods' gift to bees. That way you are willing to work for nothing when called for.


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## J-Bees (Jul 12, 2008)

Joel;
I have been using starter strips to maximize my investment in foundation, but plan a switch to popcycle sticks next year.


I have a full box of popcycle sticks, will sell them to ya for $3,500.00 plus shipping they are listed in the Beckett at $35.00 a set, a set is 26 sticks.

JB:}

forgot to ad this: there are maby 350 sets and they are from Good Humor / Breyers ice cream Co. With auto's of 26 major league players from 1989


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

fat/beeman said:


> I do teach a commercial course to students its a yr. long for 250.00 everything you need to go commercial I can give ref. on past students.
> Don


might you have that on CD?


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

2 guys I know each have over 500. That seems to be the magic number. One had 550 right now and another has 800 Plus.

Good luck!


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

"I have a full box of popcycle sticks, will sell them to ya for $3,500.00 "


Tha't just way too much for Breyers sticks, I would consider it if they were hagen daz ! If you could hold them though I should be able to save that much in about 2 years! Do you take credit cards or postdated checks.


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## Brunswick Beeworks (Sep 29, 2004)

*Thank you*

Thanks for all of your comments. I have gotten a lot of good information and been given a lot to think about. 

Jeff


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Well then, here is another thought for those considering full time commercial beekeeping:
> Do you enjoy your own company?
> I went from people surrounding me all day in my previous job, to almost total isolation as a beekeeper.
> For me; I have always been about an 85% loner anyway, so I do O.K.
> ...


Some of us have a distinct advantage in this area. I am blessed with four sons (ages 15 -24). Three of the four are ready and willing to help with the bees. The youngest does not like working directly with the bees so much, but really enjoys assembling woodenware and is quite good at it. My wife is also very much "into" the bees and helps with inspections, feeding, honey processing and etc. She even does cutouts/swarm capture with my sons while I am at work. With this willing and ready workforce, I feel I am in a pretty good position to go commercial. I am not there yet, but I have gone from less than 20 hives to near 100 in the last year. So far, my biggest impediment is going to be capital, as I refuse to go into debt for this endeavor. Not sure I can afford to sustain a schedule of quintupling my hives every year for the next 2 years (not to mention getting the weather and the bees to cooperate), so I will probably have to continue my day job a little longer.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Gene, you are blessed with a great beekeeping family!
I hope that they all stay tuned in to the business. You should do well!
As to the debt part; I have never borrowed a penny to build my operation.
As a former director in a local manufacturing corp, I always scoffed when I heard the term, "bootstrap business".
But the entire time, that was what I was building.
For folks that have a good job and kids at home, they can slowly increase and get set up with equipment by reinvesting their income annually into expansion.
It is different for someone that wants to make a sudden change in employment and does not mind debt.
But if you can grow your operation along with your skills slowly and keep your day job until the kids are on their own two feet, and do so with NO DEBT, then you have a good start.
Don't quit your job one second earlier than you need to.
But above all, remember that in beekeeping, "The bees come first".
If you are in the beekeeping business and you take the best care of your bees, every thing else will follow.
It's like dairy farming; the cows need milked in the AM and PM.
Everything else in life must revolve around that.
If you start cutting corners or get lax with your bees, your operation may crumble.
The bees come first, or sell them and punch a time card somewhere.
My $.02


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## BeekeeperBill (Mar 7, 2007)

I'm glad I found this thread. I am thinking along the same lines. I am a very beginner beekeeper but really enjoy it. Am just now thinking where I'd like to be in 4-5 years. 



> I think there is something to be said of "sidelining". Build to 100 hives and see what money can be made. Then ask yourself if you can do he same with 500.
> 
> 
> > This makes alot more sense to me. At least in the short term. I do the same type of thing with IT consulting. Desktops, servers, networks, and general support for 10 or so small businesses in the area. I always have a regular nite gig doing IT support that pays all the bills, insurance, retirement etc. My thought process is more along hte lines of...."If i could have 100 hives and make some $ doing nucs, pollinating, and retail or wholesale honey sales"....that might be more rewarding personally. I have one bee yard that is family land, a tractor that I could put a fork lift attachement on for carrying the girls around on pallets, etc. All I'd need is a flatbed truck and some higher capacity uncapping/extracting equipment right? opcorn:
> ...


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

as gene's snip of harry comments suggest perhaps the most highly repeated personal characteristic of almost (I am trying to think of one exception here while I type this) every commercial bee keeper that I have know is they were blessed with a definite 'loner' type personality. to go down that road you certainly had better enjoy your own company.

for myself in regards to wishing to go commercial... been there, done that. the reality is a bit more difficult than the dream and I quite like myself where I is, how I is.... and yes I most definitely qualify in the above mentioned profile.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Brunswick Beeworks said:


> I run a small apiary in middle Tennessee and have been bee keeping for five years. I am entertaining growing the business and ultimately going full time with the bees. In your experiences, what is the minimum number of hives you have to have to make a go of it. I have done the math based on my average harvest, potential pollination contracts, money from splits and wax products and have a fair idea but wanted to get your opinions and thoughts.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help.
> ...


At least you won't be unemployed.

You'll need about 400 to start w/ and maybe more. Alot depends on your standard of living and how willing and able you are to put in the hours.


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

Some things to also consider is

Toilet paper in the truck for when nature calls and you are way out in a beeyard.

keeping frozen water bottles for when you are overheating in a beesuit

knowing how to run a bobcat and staight transmission on a truck so you do not dump a load of full honey supers.

How to properly tie down a load so you do not lose it on the first stop sign on a hill.

Know when to quit working a bee yard because it is going to rain in a hour and the bees are all over you. No amount of smoke fixes this.....

there are so many things on the commercial side that most hobby or sideliners just do not know.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Know when to quit working a bee yard because it is going to rain in a hour and the bees are all over you. No amount of smoke fixes this.....

no, you dont ever learn that one,


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Well around these parts you'd better learn how to work bees in the rain or you won't get much work done. It rains a lot here and when it's not we might have a drizzle or some showers, hail ,snow, fog is kinda common too. We've been working bees since the middle of february and we've had less than 10 sunny days. Most of those were freezing cold to start with. It's not the best condition to be working bees but because of these efforts some colonies are looking mighty fine now. I think it's real important to be flexible in beekeeping so you can capitalize on opportunities. I think that's been my greatest strenght. I've tried lot's of different things that I may not repeat year to year. For instance this year honey prices are good so I'm going to sell bees. Normally those bees would be used for blueberry pollination but berry prices are down. Consequently growers are renting less bees. No use arguing, it's the way it is. Honey prices are good so I'll sell more bees this year than usual. It's an opportunity this year so I'll take advantage of it. Some years I've made Ross Rounds . I get a premium price pound for pound but it's a lot of fooling around. I won't make any this season, bulk honey prices are too good. To sum it all up, every season is different. It's important to have some flexibility and take advantage of opportunites as they arise.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

You operate a well run diversified beekeeping operation Jean Marc. By doing so it allows you to adjust and capitalize on changing markets.

My operation runs a bit different. I am soley a honey producer. I am diversified well into other sectors of agriculture.
My beekeeping focus is strictly on honey production. I take the good years and profit, I take the poor years and regroup. My main and only focus is to manage my hive in the best way to produce a big honey crop. Its the only way I can manage my honey farm while taking enough time to devote to my other areas of business interests.

Time management is probably our biggest obsticle


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

I was once a fair weather beekeeper...until I started working for Jean-marc. Prior to to that I had worked with a beek that that ran 250 colonies while my father and I ran our 200. the I use to work for never worked the hives in the rain and wouldn't even crack a lid until mid march and since we were learning from him our practices were much the same. In early 2002, my mother passed away and my fathers heart wasn't in the bees anymore than what mine was at the time and we sold the bees (Jean-marc and other beek) but I kept back 12 hives. the beek I was working for lossed his wife and sold the bees too. So I was in limbo on what I wanted to do, maybe keep bees as a hobby and get a full time job.

Then I met my wife to be in 2003 and she would have none of that and has been one of my biggest supporters on getting our bee operation off the ground. In February 16, 2004 was the first day of working bees for Jean-marc. I remember that day well as it was raining none stop as we digged through the hives giving frames of pollen, the next day was fairly the same and so on and so forth. through the course of my employment with JM I learnt to get use to being wet and cold, you could expect that from mid feb to the end of march you might have a total 10-15 days where it wouldn't rain. This was the difference among other things from running 200 hives to running 2000 hives.

for anyone starting a operation from side line to wanting to go commercial, it helps to learn from those that have done this by working for those people and if your lucky they will share with you their beginnings and how they got to where they are today, Jean-marcs story is still quite inspiring to me to this day.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Time management, yup that's a big one. The weather man is predicting 5 days of sunshine starting today. So it would sure be nice to have an extra 3-4 guys around here for the next 6 weeks. You know to make up nucs, requeen, move bees to pollination. Then we could scale backe the crew. Unfortunately the business can't afford it and good labour is hard to find. 

Ian, we need to diversify here and for sure on the prairies honey production is the only game in town, except perhaps pollination in southern Alta. Wishing you and others the big crop with these good honey prices.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

boy this spring is getting off to a slow start!
bees are still inside!


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## John Smith (Jan 31, 2006)

*............and what price for honey?*

With beekeeping set to explode and honey already in short supply, the real question is, "How much will the honey be worth when produced?"

My tip is that there never has been a better time to hop into commercial honey production.

The Honey Revolution is happening. Two hives on the White House lawn have just put up the flag!

Cheers


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Ian said:


> boy this spring is getting off to a slow start!
> bees are still inside!


Tell me about it...snowing here today and more to come tomorrow. :doh:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>My tip is that there never has been a better time to hop into commercial honey production.

I hear you John! Take when the taking is hot!

When there is up side, there also comes down side. 
Getting in on the upside makes the down side hit harder.
Best plan operations on below average prices and yeilds. Because the downside looms, and if it cant be managed accordingly, they your out of business!


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