# Why Are There Massive Bee Losses in Australia?



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Saw this video published by a group called Theorganicview, who are activists concerned with banning neonicitinoids.

Have decided to link it just so I get to comment on it first 

The good people of Theorganicview have found an Australian who fits their agenda and is saying Australia and New Zealand are suffering massive bee losses and it's all because of neonicitinoids, and nothing to do with varroa, since Australia does not have varroa.

While I have no doubt about the sincerity of this guy, a few alarm bells went off, one of them being his claim that New Zealand has massive problems. Since I actually live and keep bees in NZ and know this to be untrue my BS meter was triggered. Then there is the repeated use of the phrase "science has proved", but never any reference to the actual science.

What I thought was the most dangerous was one of the few specifics he actually mentioned, being the statement that Australia lose 30% of their bees every year. This was instantly seized on by his interviewers, it is the proof they have been looking for. Since Australia does not have varroa, but are losing 30% of their bees every year, a similar rate to the US, then these losses are clearly not related to varroa, but are obviously caused by neonicitinoids. This is the proof Theorganicview have been looking for.

There is one problem with this. Australia does not lose 30% of their bees every year. Although this statement was made in the video with deep conviction, it is a total fabrication. To be blunt, a lie.

I did some fact checking with Aussie beekeepers and was told hive losses are so small it is a non issue to the industry. The video claims hive losses are not being investigated because of a kind of conspiracy, but the beekeepers say hive losses are not being investigated because they are such a non issue there is nothing to investigate.

I have not fact checked everything said on the video, but if it contains an untruth as blatant as that, I'm going to treat the rest of it as suspect also.

Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKJIEj4f6zs


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## Aroc (May 18, 2016)

It's unfortunate groups need to fabricate science to justify their beliefs and existence. Even with facts in their faces they will often discount such evidence as.....a conspiracy....


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Sounds familiar over here in the states also: http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymi...ons-not-to-worry-about-the-bees/#7ee2d97470a8


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

As with everything there is *always* an agenda. Follow the money should always be your guiding light.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Muddy waters make it impossible to see through


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## Aroc (May 18, 2016)

dynemd said:


> Sounds familiar over here in the states also: http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymi...ons-not-to-worry-about-the-bees/#7ee2d97470a8


This is a great read. I encourage all to take a peek.


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## Aroc (May 18, 2016)

billabell said:


> As with everything there is *always* an agenda. Follow the money should always be your guiding light.


Global warming????.....er excuse me climate change....is a good example. There is a lot of money in fear.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Aroc said:


> Global warming????.....er excuse me climate change....is a good example. There is a lot of money in fear.


Amen brother!!


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I watched the video in it's entirety. About 2/3's of the way the neonic folks put up their banner for all to see. That was odd at best.

I agree that it is said with deep conviction. I am not sure that he sad 30% loss per year industry wide but rather a certain segment was approaching it.

I have a few contact there but I have not been in touch in a number of years so I cannot confirm or deny these claimed losses. I have heard second hand of good honey prices being offered to beekeepers for bulk honey, and have heard of very high pollination prices. Again this is second hand information. If claims of high losses associated with agricultural crops are true then it would explain why beekkepers are apparently asking top dollar for their services.

Jean-Marc


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hi guys, I will now give you an environmentalists answer '' you are all shills for Bayer and Monsanto". the supposed bee apocalypse is a boon for fund raising and one must never let the facts interfere with a good story. I have a daughter in Queensland Australia and I am sure that she pays less for a pound of honey from a farm stall there than someone would pay for a pound of honey in my area. OT how are you managing 140 hives when I feel like 50 is killing me?
Johno


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

The Australians have an unvisible varroa...:shhhh:


The Australian Beekeeper: Neonics in Australia

http://www.theabk.com.au/articles/2016/8/4/neonicotinoids-in-australia

http://www.theabk.com.au/articles/2016/8/30/neonicotinoids-in-australia-part-2

Are all those losses pure fiction? 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10857059


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Bernard, the 2 australian articles areboth written by the same Jeffrey Gibbs. My point being it is the same voice and message as in the youtube. Have not yet read the NZ article.

Jean-Marc


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Re the NZ article, the author, Sue Kedgely is a Green Party activist who was also a government mp for I think 2 terms and has also written books on femminism, and the womens liberation movement.

The Green Party have seized on the "beepocolypse" and release a steady stream of articles about how bees in NZ are on the brink of extinction. This gets great public sympathy which is helpful for fundraising plus garners support for their other agenda of banning sprays, mostly roundup and neonics they want gone.

The NZ Green Party has been closely associated with Greenpeace and the party is made up of some very extremist people. However by a strange twist they have recently appointed a very pro business co-leader so the party now comprises a strange mix of pro business folks, and pot smoking weirdoes. 

However it must be said that NZ is not entirely free of unexplained bee deaths. There have been some big losses, as there always has been for the more than 40 years I have been in the business. There are 3 known "dead zones" where you cannot keep bees year around without risking losses. Neonics is suspected and maybe it is, but despite extensive testing nothing has ever been found to be a cause. 

Pollination often weakens the hives and now honey is so expensive many beekeepers are not doing pollination like they used to, to keep their hives in top condition to get a good crop. But pollination has always been bad for bees, well before the advent of neonics.

Thing is, because of the extremist views expressed by some anti neonicitinoid campaigners, which can be so biased as to insult the intelligence of any reasonably educated person, it can cause people to dismiss all anti neonicitinoid literature. But to me that's a mistake, neonics are designed to kill insects and as such will kill bees and this should not be ignored. But as beekeepers we have to live in the world the way it is not how we would like it to be, and as such have to have an accurate understanding of pesticides and how to keep bees successfully alongside them.

As to the beepocolypse in New Zealand, in the year 2000 we had 200,000 kept beehives here. The increase in the price of honey has caused people to invest in bees and now in 2016 there are 750,000 kept beehives here, won't be long till we pass a million. No beepocolypse here, alarmist Green Party articles not withstanding.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Maybe Oldtimer could comment on the NZ article. According to the article the world is coming to the end game. The writer is a former Green MP (but I do not know the significance of that if any). She seems to be worried about deregulation.
Something we could use a lot of here in the USofA IMHO.

OOPs while I was pontificating Oldtimer stepped up with his usual clarity and commonsense.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

OT you have to learn to work like a politician, they could figure the colonies should have gone from 200,00 to a 1,000,000 but only went to 750,000 so there is your big loss.
Johno


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

do a little research there are 2 deadly pasasites that have been found in Australia, a mite called Varroa jacobsoni, they are worse then Varrora destructor and they are there, but then there is the Tropilaelaps clareae, the next big baddie, if there is any loss those are the reason, not neonics.

Get ready for the next wave of invaders, Canada imports Bees from Australia where these nasties reside. Once they get here in the US it's a whole new war.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Varroa jacobsoni is worse than destructor? Tropilaelaps in Australia? Really?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

billabell said:


> As with everything there is *always* an agenda. Follow the money should always be your guiding light.


this right here, throw that in with " never let a good tragedy go to waste" and " don't let facts get in the way" and suddenly the sky is falling no matter what the subject.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

according this this article they are worse

this article says jacobsonii are in Au plus there are over a dozen article saying they are there and that varrora are there.

sorry Mr Palmer somehow I completely mis read the last paragraph skipping the word "not" in this about tropilaelaps not having my glasses on


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

DavidZ said:


> says jacobsonii are in Au plus there are over a dozen article saying they are there and that varrora are there.


jacobsonii are varroa.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Some of the colonies of apis cerana that were found in Australia were found to have Jacobsonii mites,it seems when mites were first seen in the USA they were called Jacobsonii but were later changed to Varoa because of some differences in the mites. I believe they are not the same, Varoa is far more virulent or something.
Johno


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

If you don't believe me you can check out this link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varroa_jacobsoni


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Johno, they are both Varroa. Varroa jacobsoni and Varroa destructor


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

They are first cousins occupying the same ecological niche preying on honeybees. The differences are primarily that Varroa Jacobsoni has a distinctive preference for A. Cerana while V. Destructor will infest both A. Cerana and A. Mellifera. There is a difference in shell shape that is used to differentiate between them. A. Cerana most likely got into N.E. Australia from Papau New Guinea and brought parasites along for the ride.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Sorry I just got confused, what I meant was that Jacobsoni is not the same critter as Destructor 
Johno


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## chorrylan (Feb 20, 2016)

johno said:


> If you don't believe me you can check out this link
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varroa_jacobsoni


hmmm if getting your name on the update history for a wikipedia page is something you've always wanted then that page could be your big opportunity.

The paragraph about lifecycle misleadingly describes "The lifecycle of V. jacobsoni in A. mellifera" whereas A. mellifera is not known as a host for V. jacobsoni (it was back in the days before V. destructor was categorized as a separate species but I think that predates wikipedia itself; and it may again if A. cerana and A. mellifera colonies intermingle enough for V jacobsoni to cross over to bigger, tastier hosts but for now I believe it's simply wrong)


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm Try this link chorrylan.
Johno


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

We have very small resouces here in Finland but the Finnish beekeepers Association made a survey to find out wheather neonicotinoids have affect on winterlosses. The result was that the bees near oil seed rape fields (about the only crop where the bees can get neonicotinoiuds here in Finland) overwintered slightly *better* than the bees which had no oil seed rape fields near them. The difference was not big.


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## ahuskano (Dec 3, 2016)

Oldtimer said:


> There have been some big losses, as there always has been for the more than 40 years I have been in the business. There are 3 known "dead zones" where you cannot keep bees year around without risking losses.


Oldimer, do you know where are those 3 dead zones? Is there any map with it marked?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sorry I couldn't draw you a map, they are a long way from me and I don't know and couldn't identify the exact areas. If you are very interested in this, you could log into this web site and ask, local commercial beekeepers will know. http://www.nzbees.net/forums/


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## ahuskano (Dec 3, 2016)

Oldtimer said:


> you could log into this web site and ask, local commercial beekeepers will know. http://www.nzbees.net/forums/


oh that's awesome! I will do it. Thank you for link


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