# question of buying breeding stock



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

I don´t know how things work out in US, but here in Europe when two breeders start cooperation it is based on trust and similar goals in breeding work. In this kind of situation queens are changed without money.

If you want to buy real breeder queens (= queens tested in such manner, that their offsping has been seen and tested to be even and with good wanted qualities) then I would say they are priceless too, and if they are sold they are several years old. Usually an unexperienced customer does not want such queens. I would not sell my own for any money.


I give quarantine to my queens (500€) which covers the loss of the queen if it dies immidiatelly in housing or very soon afterwards. These queens are young queens which have started egg laying couple weeks before and are therefore not true breeders yet.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

The term "breeder queen" has different meanings to different people, and thus different price tags associated.

To some, a breeder queen is an unproven, untested new queen from the breeder's most desirable genetics. In other words, a good place to start in breeding. Generally, these aren't that expensive, and usually run around the same price as a good "average" queen.

To some, a breeder queen is a proven, tested, monitored queen from the breeder's most desirable genetics. Usually, it's the first category that is put in a nuc or hive and allowed to lay a few rounds, or a few months of rounds, while the breeder judges her laying ability and (hopefully) offspring to ensure the desired traits are being passed on. Generally, these are more expensive. A few hundred dollars+.

To some, a breeder queen is an Artificially Inseminated (or Instrumentally Inseminated, depending on your lineage) queen, taking the most desirable virgin queens and inseminating her with genetics from your most desirable drone stock. Typically these are not tested or proven (as AI queens don't lay as long as open mated queens), and come with some decent price tags, depending on the genetics, skill of the breeder, and quality of the product. Usually several hundred to a thousand.

Lastly, to some, at least that I've heard of, a breeder queen is an AI/II queen that has been proven and tested. These are your money queens, as Dwight Schrute would say. Big bucks here. I've never seen anyone market or sell these.

Generally breeder queens are sold "as is." No warranty that they will either be accepted into the new hive, or that they'll be great breeder material (as that term is very subjective anyway). If you have a long standing relationship with a breeder, that may change, but it isn't the norm.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Mike 
I see you followed through.

Specialk
You are a pretty good comunicator.
Cheers
gww


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Specialkayme said:


> ....Typically these are not tested or proven (as AI queens don't lay as long as open mated queens), and come with some decent price tags, depending on the genetics, skill of the breeder, and quality of the product. Usually several hundred to a thousand.....


"(as AI queens don't lay as long as open mated queens)" 

While I'm just a beginner in II or AI queens, my research before going into II was that a well II queen is just as good as a regular well mated production queen. The Glenn website and Sue Cobey on her you tube, 2 part II vids said so. These are professional at II but I'm not there yet. Both have used II queens to stock their breeder hives. So I firmly believed and totally disagree with you on this one. Some of my production queens that are open mated ran out juice on the 2nd seasons. These are not the well mated queens compare to the others that I have. A 2nd II attempt will ensure that the spermatheca will be full of semen on an II queen if you're not sure about the first try. Besides, the spermatheca is not a big storage tank if you look at the picture comparing the before and after II of it. So both of them said that a well II queen will lay up to 2-3 years. And the spermatheca can stored up to several million of semen though only 1 million will be used in her entire lifetime to fertilize the eggs. It just depends on how good you are at the II process to deliver all those semen in. Do your own research and compare that with the reality of the II queens you have in your apiary. I will do that for a firm answer early next season. I'm just talking about the II process not including supersedure afterward and all that. Yes, your writing is good. A+ for the day! 
Maybe one day I will find out for sure after doing several 100s or even 1000s of II queens using my homemade ghetto II station. <<== There is a post here.



First attempt, first successful II Cordovan queen:


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

beepro said:


> my research before going into II was that a well II queen is just as good as a regular well mated production queen.


You are correct. A _*well mated*_ II queen will perform as well as a well mated production queen.

But most II queens don't have full spermathecas. It's just the reality of the product you buy. If you put in 3 million sperm, maybe 1 million get accepted into the spermatheca. To really get good sperm take, you have to use excessive amounts of sperm on multiple attempts. Which is time consuming and resource consuming. So most II producers aren't looking to provide a "production queen" and find it acceptable to stop at a certain point. Not because they are looking to provide an inferior quality queen, but because the intended purpose isn't to have it live several years and put out frame after frame after frame of brood. So if you look at averages, the II queen will lay over a shorter time period than an open mated queen. Which is why most breeders keep an II queen restricted to a smaller laying area, i.e. reduced brood nest, typically in a nuc or smaller hive (well, one of the reasons).


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Specialkayme said:


> the II queen will lay over a shorter time period .


That is what I have found to be true, and......II doesn't always = good. As in good queen or good daughters.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I feel that the best use of purchasing an II queen for is to use her as your mother queen to produce daughters from her. In this case, she does not have to be long lived and a production queen. I am not sure, but feel that most people who purchase II queens are using them as queen mothers, not as production queens.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

One day I will verify whether or not an II queen can live up to a production queen's standard. The II
queens will be track over time to see how they do in a production environment. Because the II beekeeper has the 
means to produce more queens through out the season they are not too concern about keeping a breeder queen or the 
utility of it. If it is such a short live laying process then it is not worth the $300-$500 spent on them.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

beepro said:


> One day I will verify whether or not an II queen can live up to a production queen's standard.
> . . .
> If it is such a short live laying process then it is not worth the $300-$500 spent on them.


I think you're missing the point . . .


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## teplov (Dec 31, 2016)

If everything is right, the queen for $ 500 will increase the profitability of your apiary. To be really successful, you need to choose one of several queens.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

beepro said:


> One day I will verify whether or not an II queen can live up to a production queen's standard. The II
> ...
> If it is such a short live laying process then it is not worth the $300-$500 spent on them.



(taking it for what it is worth - see my comments on my knowledge of this subject in #1)
I believe their point is that AI'ing (or II'ing - whichever you prefer) a queen is time consuming work - not something you would want to do for your everyday work queen. Rather these special queens are mainly used to produce more queens which will then be the next step in the breeding process.

It makes sense - factory production (i.e. the AI queen laying up more quality queens) goes faster than hand building each one.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If you are not concern about open mating then you can use the mutt daughter queens for the 2nd or 3rd generation until the breeder exhausted herself. My point is that if you want to maintain the Cordovan bees (with a single recessive gene) then you have to maintain many II queens including ALL the breeders and their II daughters. This way whatever genetics they bring back on open mating still have a minimal influence in your local gene pool. If not after the 4th generation of open mating, all of your bees will revert back to the local carnis or whatever bees you have there. Been there before! So what is the point of buying an expensive breeder if you cannot maintain its gene pool in your own apiary? And how many daughters you have to maintain if the breeder is such a short laying queen? Of course, you can make many daughters from a single breeder. But that is besides my point. Going back to square one after the 4th generation is no fun for me! Now with the new II process I'm at the upper hand on controlling the Cordovan genetics. So it makes sense for me to produce the II production queens too since all of them have the potential to become a breeder too. Breeder through II still a breeder; breeder through open mating is a mutt. Reverted back to local bees after the 4th generation. Maintains breeder status on II after 2nd generation with compatible line crossed. Maybe I've been battling the local carnis too much.


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## teplov (Dec 31, 2016)

If the beekeeping of your business, then it is profitable to buy an expensive queen from a well-known breeder, You need to buy at least once every three years. If the breeder is recognized by all, the quality of the material is guaranteed. If the goal is to become a breeder yourself, you need to start with this, have an apiary with exemplary bees.
This is the main rule.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Somebody could start a thread of hive stands or something. I´m sure Beepro would reply something about Cordovan gene.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Somebody could start a thread of hive stands or something. I´m sure Beepro would reply something about Cordovan gene.


LOL!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I have issues with what is being sold as breeding stock. I don't often bring in anything from outside, but I have a number of times in the last 15 years. Most of what I've gotten is II. Nothing I bought, but a trade between breeders. I send them mine, they send me theirs. Good way to check out other stocks. One producer has been pretty good overall, but some daughters were a bit testy. Couldn't hold a candle to some others. Brutally savage bees are nothing I care to deal with. I mean eat you alive mean. And swarmy. I set up an apiary with daughters of a breeder got from one known breeder queen producer. Every one had swarm cells before dandelion...when no other colonies in my operation did. And, they'd chase you into the next county.

Anyway, to me a breeder queen is one that has been observed over a number of years, and her daughters have been observed for a winter and a summer. Of course you need to have enough colonies to be able to select intelligently...maybe 100 colonies or more. At that level, you can buy production queens from a producer, evaluate them over a year or two, and if anything good shows up, that one can be used as breeding stock. The following year, if the daughters are exceptional, you have a breeder queen.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> I have issues with what is being sold as breeding stock. I don't often bring in anything from outside, but I have a number of times in the last 15 years. Most of what I've gotten is II. Nothing I bought, but a trade between breeders. I send them mine, they send me theirs. Good way to check out other stocks. One producer has been pretty good overall, but some daughters were a bit testy. Couldn't hold a candle to some others. Brutally savage bees are nothing I care to deal with. I mean eat you alive mean. And swarmy. I set up an apiary with daughters of a breeder got from one known breeder queen producer. Every one had swarm cells before dandelion...when no other colonies in my operation did. And, they'd chase you into the next county.
> 
> Anyway, to me a breeder queen is one that has been observed over a number of years, and her daughters have been observed for a winter and a summer. Of course you need to have enough colonies to be able to select intelligently...maybe 100 colonies or more. At that level, you can buy production queens from a producer, evaluate them over a year or two, and if anything good shows up, that one can be used as breeding stock. The following year, if the daughters are exceptional, you have a breeder queen.


Michael you have brought in vsh. How much has that helped in keeping the mites down? I have a few good hives that produced good, are so nice you can pet them but have so many mites In there I'm surprised that the hive looks good I don't see DWV or crawlers. I did sugar rolls on them, 16 mites at the end of July over 30 three weeks later on a half cup of bees.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Michael you have brought in vsh. How much has that helped in keeping the mites down?


It probably helps to some degree, but It isn't the final solution. I still have issues with varroa, and still treat.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> It probably helps to some degree, but It isn't the final solution. I still have issues with varroa, and still treat.


The reason I asked I'm thinking of getting 1 or 2 vsh queens and sharing them with some guys here. Trying to justify the cost of the queens. Most here are treating with MAQS and still the big booming hives are dead from mites. If vsh keeps the mite level lower wouldn't that help or is it more the skill of the beekeeper?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If the cost of a vsh queen is more expensive than the mite biting/mauling bees then I
would stick to the mite biting queen. Vsh + allogrooming + biting/mauling = a complete arsenal. The 
trick is how do you put all 3 together in the same hive/apiary?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

It does help but not enough.


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## teplov (Dec 31, 2016)

Dan the bee guy said:


> The reason I asked I'm thinking of getting 1 or 2 vsh queens and sharing them with some guys here. Trying to justify the cost of the queens. Most here are treating with MAQS and still the big booming hives are dead from mites. If vsh keeps the mite level lower wouldn't that help or is it more the skill of the beekeeper?


Varroa tolerates diseases, bees can get several dozen viral diseases. In the colony of bees, except for the fact that there are few mites, one must be immune to diseases. What is also very important in practice. 
If there is no breeding program, then it is necessary to treat colonys, be sure to do it.


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