# Planning for my TF 2016 season and need some advice



## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

First year BK and I have been stung
I'm planning on purchasing 2 to 4 nucs next year and want go SC FL. I hoping for some feedback from all of you that have been through this

I have scouted out a few local sources but will assume that they are on LC foundation

I will be going with 1 deep with mids above. I was figuring on alternating FL with Plastic 4.9. My thought pattern was that this would give the bees a guide to lay on FL.

Questions:

Will they build on the plastic without wax being brushed on them?

Am I crazy to alternate with Foundation?

Should I run all FL in the deep with the new nuc or throw in some foundation?

Will they build SC next to the LC Nuc frames LC?

1st year hive is a solid 2 deep strong with a mid just starting to be worked. All on LC but no treatments. Major flow going on here in the NE and I'm hoping the mid gets built out in time for 1st frost. I will leave all on for wintering. Hope to split this in the spring and start switching to SC. I'll have many questions when this goes down.

I appreciate all the help here. I'm learning so much

AA


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

I'm not smart to night, what does SC, FL and LC stand for?


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Large cell ad foudatioless.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Bees of SC said:


> I'm not smart to night, what does SC, FL and LC stand for?


It's nothing to do with smarts, the acronyms are annoying. He's not talking about being migratory...Small Cell and Foundation Less.
How's the flow in SC by the way? Was your summer dearth severe? Pollen start August? Golden Rod now?

I don't have an opinion in regards to the foundations/small cell.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

> Will they build on the plastic without wax being brushed on them?


Been doing natural cell sizing for 15 yrs and beekeeping in general for many more. Simply put bee use wax plastic is a foreign substance they could care less about using it. If you want good results use what they use : wax.



> Am I crazy to alternate with Foundation?


Actually I think that using foundationless on unregressed bees is going to give you more of the cell size you had before. I personally would go with natural cell size starter strips to at least give them a blueprint of what your trying to achieve. If not they will try to match the body size they are already on.



> Should I run all FL in the deep with the new nuc or throw in some foundation?


I respect Michael Bush allot he has always recommended going FL. If you believe that it took 100yrs or so of using upsized foundation to get where were at today. I have always advocated that proper sized foundation should be used to get back were we should be. At the very least use starter strips to give them something to cue into. Once you are sized down then foundationless is a great way to go especially for clean wax.



> Will they build SC next to the LC Nuc frames LC?


Well if you just put in foundationless they will probably make what they were on. If you give them foundation or starter strips you will see they size down. Usually takes a few rounds to do this. You have to work the larger combs out as soon as can be done. Work with the bees and don't think for one second you can "force" them.

Clay- natural cell, TF since 2000


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

Yeah sorry for the acronyms. They bug the hell out of me as well when used without explanation. SC Small Cell, FL Foundation Less, LC Large Cell

Thank You Clayton: It will be interesting to see what they build

I will be going with the 45 degree wood angle starter strip as foundation-less starter but I suppose I could go with some Small cell starter. I will see when all arrives and I start messing with it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

AAIndigo said:


> Will they build on the plastic without wax being brushed on them?


Eventually, maybe. Or not. Sometimes bees hate unwaxed plastic so much that they fit little skinny combs in between the frames. You will hugely speed things up if you wax coat the foundation.



AAIndigo said:


> Should I run all FL in the deep with the new nuc or throw in some foundation?


If you are trying to achieve SC, then yes, use foundation. If you are using large bees they will build large natural comb. Foundation of the size you choose will speed the process of getting them where you want them to go.

I agree with Clayton about bees preferring wax, they do. But for getting large cell bees to build small cell comb, plastic has the advantage that if the bees ignore the cell size and build bigger, which they probably will, you can scrape off the bad bits and get them to do it again. When I converted to SC I used wax foundation, turned out to be pretty expensive and time consuming cos everything they built wrong had to be destroyed, and re wired and waxed, if I was doing it all over I would use plastic.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

> Eventually, maybe. Or not. Sometimes bees hate unwaxed plastic so much that they fit little skinny combs in between the frames. You will hugely speed things up if you wax coat the foundation.


I went with wax small cell as I had to mill my own. There was no plastic or even wax 4.9 at the time. I didn't start using the plastic till a few years ago. The bees hated it in every way. Maybe 1 hive in 10 liked it. If I could get one that would draw it I would funnel as much as possible into those hives. After a season or two I started to wax them using mini paint rollers as they don't seem well coated with wax. Acceptance went to about 50/50. 



> I agree with Clayton about bees preferring wax, they do. But for getting large cell bees to build small cell comb, plastic has the advantage that if the bees ignore the cell size and build bigger, which they probably will, you can scrape off the bad bits and get them to do it again. When I converted to SC I used wax foundation, turned out to be pretty expensive and time consuming cos everything they built wrong had to be destroyed, and re wired and waxed, if I was doing it all over I would use plastic.


I can see going that route especially for people with a few hives and less experience and no way to handle the broodcombs, making it a good recommendation. However if one is a sideliner or bigger I would recommend milling your own and set up to process combs into clean wax. Regression will eventually be achieved and using wax foundation (little to no cell wall) allows the bees to go smaller if they chose. I have many hives on 4.75mm using my own foundation or foundationless. A good mix of everything will probably be best. While my bees tend to hate plastic, at least it allows me to dream about something other than wiring in my sleep.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

If you want to go foundationless/small cell, maybe find someone who has done the work and has already regressed their bees. If you are lucky, you may even find treatment free. 

Also consider going all mediums. It will make managing fl much easier. You can nadir new boxes underneath and as the bees build down they will move their brood nest down and create a natural opportunity for regression. In this case you could pyramid down instead of up. Mark your frames and keep your youngest brood frames lower in the stack and move older frames up to be eventually filled with honey and taken out of the hive. If you have one size box, this is possible.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I was figuring on alternating FL with Plastic 4.9. My thought pattern was that this would give the bees a guide to lay on FL.

But they will do just as well or better with all of one of the other. You create a situation where they prefer one (foundationless) over the other (plastic) and the outcomes are not consistent.

>Will they build on the plastic without wax being brushed on them?

If you mean PF120s with no wax, not nearly as well as they will with wax. I would buy they waxed. There is VERY little wax on the waxed ones, but it is enough to incite them to build on it much better.

>Am I crazy to alternate with Foundation?

No, just mistaken.

>Should I run all FL in the deep with the new nuc or throw in some foundation?

I would do all foundationless. Nucs come on drawn comb so it won't be ALL foundationless anyway. Feed foundationless one frame at a time into the middle of the brood nest.

>Will they build SC next to the LC Nuc frames LC?

Large cell bees are a bit unpredictable in what size they will draw. Genetics, time of year, etc. all have an effect. But I would feed what you want drawn smaller into the middle of the broodnest. What they build outside the brood nest is often larger.

I have to agree on all the abbreviations. One slows me down a little. BK, SC, FL, LC... takes me longer to read. If you type a few more letters you'll probably get more and better responses...


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I started out 9 years ago as a small cell IPM beekeeper, & I still am.
Run under 20 hives, & have lower than average yearly losses. 
Last couple years I've been adding some foundationless frames to the established hives.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Clayton - care to share any pictures of your small cell comb. Did I understand that you make your own small cell foundation. 

AAIndigo - A small tip, if you try to regress, figure out a way to mark the large cell or small cell frames. Sometimes during the middle of the summer I got them mixed up and I have 2 or 3 NUCs of confused bees. Half small cells and half bigger cell combs filled with bees. Confusing hive to look at as well.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

well it contains bees.






Yes I have a mill from Tom Industries, and make my own foundation. I buy a little dadant 4.9 when wax supply is low. Along with some foundationless and plastic 4.9.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I would put a new frame with flat wax starter strip between the
2 frames of small cells to see what they will draw out. Rather than using
the production hive to do that I will use a small nuc with a new laying queen in the
Spring time. It will be interesting to see.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I put one or two frames with no foundation in this year. They drew the "FL" before the plastic. I intend to do more this year, but I am locating the "FL" between drawn combs. I am hoping for natural sized cells. I think it will take a few generations to accomplish it. I always leave 1 medium super below the Queen Excluder. If I get some drone comb in there, I will move it above the "QE" after the drones emerge. I expect the bees to fill those big cells with honey. yum


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

dsegrest said:


> I put one or two frames with no foundation in this year. They drew the "FL" before the plastic. I intend to do more this year, but I am locating the "FL" between drawn combs. I am hoping for natural sized cells. I think it will take a few generations to accomplish it. I always leave 1 medium super below the Queen Excluder. If I get some drone comb in there, I will move it above the "QE" after the drones emerge. I expect the bees to fill those big cells with honey. yum


You will want to rip your hair out when you see how much drone comb your colony will build. Even in a fully foundationless deep + medium from last year... overwintered colony/queen drew something on the order of at least six and probably 7 or 8 deep frames of 100% drone comb. I will say that it did eventually curtail and they started drawing worker comb. But that ended my FL experiment. I guess I have some drone combs to distribute to help keep the burr comb down. Which isn't a bad side effect of foundationless. That colony got split and then they wanted to swarm in late August. So I took their queen. She had laid no less than four deep frames full of drones.

Mite bomb?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> You will want to rip your hair out when you see how much drone comb your colony will build. Even in a fully foundationless deep + medium from last year... overwintered colony/queen drew something on the order of at least six and probably 7 or 8 deep frames of 100% drone comb. I will say that it did eventually curtail and they started drawing worker comb. But that ended my FL experiment. I guess I have some drone combs to distribute to help keep the burr comb down. Which isn't a bad side effect of foundationless. That colony got split and then they wanted to swarm in late August. So I took their queen. She had laid no less than four deep frames full of drones.
> 
> Mite bomb?


That would be a great opportunity to freeze some varroa.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

dsegrest said:


> That would be a great opportunity to freeze some varroa.


I'd prefer not to treat that way.


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