# Honeybee Healthy



## Chef Isaac

I was curious as to the cost per ounce to make HBH versus to buy HBH. 

And anyone know of whole salersthat carry the oils?


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## Chef Isaac

The recipes I have found here say to use a certain amount of drops when making the recipe but when we want to price it out, I am trying to figure out how to quantify what a drop measures out to be. GGRRRRRR.


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## Chef Isaac

15 drops= .25 tsp


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## Chef Isaac

So if you were to buy a 5 gallon bucket of HBH at Dadant, you would pay $450. According to my math (which is not the best  ) it is about .70 an ounce or 11.36 a pound. I wounder what it would cost ot make it.


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## Hambone

I wish I had the answers for ya Chef. I hate to see you just talking to yourself.


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## PCM

Probably wont help, but.

I'm not worth a darn at math but my cost don't compare to Dadant's !

For a little over 1/2 gal. { I use 2/1 some use 1/1 }

I use; 
5 cups of water * Cost = cheap
10 cups of sugar * Cost = 45 cents lb.{used to be a cent sign on a typewriter}
1 powdered capsule lecitin * Cost = 8.29 cents {100 caps. $8.29 Wal-Mart}

15 drops spearmint * Cost = ?
15 drops pure lemon grass * Cost = ? See below

I bought the Spearmint oil, 2 oz. & pure lemongrass oil, 4 oz. shipping included,for $13.31. { made several batches & haven't hardly touched it }

I'ts only a expensive Hobby
PCM


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## Hambone

Here is what I come up with. Keep in mind I am boarder line stupid.

15 drops = .25 tsp. So a .5 ounce bottle has 3 tsp. (180 drops) I pay $6.50 for a .5 ounce bottle of lemmon and spearment. That = .0388 per drop.


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## kopeck

I don't have the figures on what I paid for the oils but it has to be MUCH cheaper to make your own.

I barely touched the oils (lemon & spearmint) I bough and they were the most expensive ingredient. Other then the lecitin (sold by the pound, was pretty inexpensive if I recall) sugar and water are pretty cheap. 

Is it exactly the same as HBH, I don't know but I do know bees take syrup with my homemade stuff quicker then with out so they like it....

K


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## rainesridgefarm

When I make a batch I use wintergreen oil instead. I use one ounce of wintergreen and one ounce of lemongrass. same lecithin about 1/4 teaspoon. one drop of hand dishsoap to make the water wetter. This makes up one quart of total mix that I add one tablespoon of finished product to one gallon of syrup.

lemongrass oil is about $2 a ounce in 16 ounce bottle.
wintergreen is about $3 a ounce in 16 once bottle.
Lecithin about .05 cents

I add a cup of my own honey also and that is priceless....

total cost is about $6 a quart

a whole lot cheaper to make it yourselfs. I love SARE grant info that helps you do it yourself. I am all for them making a profit and some people do not want to mess with making it as it does ruin your blender for anything else you make. So there is a cost there also.


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## Chef Isaac

how does it ruin your blender? I would think one would just mix it in? 

Also, why the dish soap?


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## PCM

I'm also all Ears !1

How does it ruin a blender ? { I just use a pot & big spoon }

Now the BIG question !!!!
Why Do You Use Soap In The Mixture ????

{They must have said some bad words & washing their mouth out ?? }

Sorry Chef, had to ask that question again !!

PCM


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## beekeeperlady

i believe the lechin..(also used as a food additive) is to allow the oils to emulsifywith the sugar water

i use a cheap 9 buck stickblender from walmart..they blend much better in whatever container you use.. and you can get a real nice mix..
on the oils.. the best oils i have found are from now foods.. usually foundin health food isles. they have just about anytype of herbal oil you will want. i dont think they sell online but they do have a list.. and also a list of the local stores that carry it.. i get mine from the amish store in windsor...
now that i know how to make the stuff .. thanks you you gentlemen..
i plan on doing so. but what is the best way to feed it? i want to make sure i do this right.. and if i use wintergreen oil.. is that better? for what reason? would love to know.. i have wintergreen as well as spearmint. ginger oil.. and a few other types..already.. just need the lemon grass oil


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## swarm_trapper

hey chef i made and fed about 30 gal of it this winter, the cost i figure by buying in bulk oils is about 82.00$ a 5 gal pail so about 16$ a gal compared to what is it now about 100$ a gal? hope this is what your looking for


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## alpha6

Chef,

HBH has other "stuff" in it and is not just pure EO's, so you can't do a real price comparison. 

I prefer to know the quality and what quantities of EO's I am feeding. Unless you get a percentage breakdown from HBH you are not going to know this information.


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## chillardbee

rainesridgefarm said:


> When I make a batch I use wintergreen oil instead. I use one ounce of wintergreen and one ounce of lemongrass. same lecithin about 1/4 teaspoon. one drop of hand dishsoap to make the water wetter. This makes up one quart of total mix that I add one tablespoon of finished product to one gallon of syrup.
> 
> lemongrass oil is about $2 a ounce in 16 ounce bottle.
> wintergreen is about $3 a ounce in 16 once bottle.
> Lecithin about .05 cents
> 
> I add a cup of my own honey also and that is priceless....
> 
> total cost is about $6 a quart
> 
> a whole lot cheaper to make it yourselfs. I love SARE grant info that helps you do it yourself. I am all for them making a profit and some people do not want to mess with making it as it does ruin your blender for anything else you make. So there is a cost there also.


 Could you please write let us know 'how much' and 'of what' you use and how you mix it. I would really like to know your recipe, thank you.


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## Chef Isaac

I am curious as to what the other "stuff" is as it needs to be on their label.


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## rainesridgefarm

*Makes one quart of mix*

I take 1/4 teaspoon of lecithin granuals and mix it in one cup of boiling water. I add one cup of honey and one cup of ice to cool it to room temp. Put it in a blender and put on low setting. one ounce of each wintergreen and lemongrass. Add drop by drop both oils until a yellow milky looking mix. Add one drop of hand dish soap and mix for 15 more seconds. The Lecithin and soap are both emulsifiers and will help keep the oils mixed in solution. add water to make up difference to total one quart. I feed at one or two teaspoons to the gallon of feed. 

The difference in oils.

Lemongrass great antiviral and antibiotic properties. Very good feed stimulant as well

Wintergreen has phenols in it that make mites steril when feeding on larva. 

OH the Blender 

The oils will make everything taste like them. Not so bad if you have glass or stainless but the rubber seal between the motor and the blade will smell from it. IF you have a cheap plastic one it will pit the plastic and the smell never comes out of it. I use the plastic ones and keep it in the honey house.


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## Chef Isaac

what does the dish soap do?


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## JBJ

Chef, I am not usre if you have found this info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_(unit)

So here they are suggesting 20 drops = one ml, but this will depend on what you are dropping from. When I had O chem in college our lab droppers dropped exactly one ml per drop if I recall correctly.

The soap will help in creating and emulsion between the oil and aqueous phases if the mixture.


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## chillardbee

I beleive there's probably a bit of a flexability to the size of drops used though, isn't there? for the drops that come out of the eye droppers, chem droppers, or even the EO's that have the tilt dropper, I think for the amounts that we use, that there wouldn't that much difference, would there? give or take a drop or two.


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## rainesridgefarm

read the seventh sentence.


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## crazytranes

*If you want to be REALLY accurate*

Earlier you were asking about exact measurement for drops. Like someone said before, it really depends on the dropper. 

If you want to be exceptionally accurate, you could always buy some pipettes from a science supply store. Depending on the size, they are accurate down to fractions of a milliliter. As long as you are careful, you could get away with mouth pipetting the essential oils, just don't suck in too hard.

Hmmm... can you tell I spent a lot of time in chemistry classes?


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## PCM

To calculate the size of the drops, I think you would have to know what the
original drop size was, that who ever originaly posted this recipie many many moons ago used.
Other wise I think your just beating a dead horse !

Just my uneducated thinking ! :doh:

PCM


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## Chef Isaac

but you have to find out that to find out what your cost will be of the recipe.


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## JohnK and Sheri

Chef Isaac said:


> but you have to find out that to find out what your cost will be of the recipe.


I think it is a little like trying to define a "pinch" of salt. In the overall cost of the recipe, whether it is a little drop or a big one, it won't make enough difference to matter to most people.
Sheri


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## Chef Isaac

sheri: but since the essential oils are htem ost expensive item in the recipe, i would think one would want to know the cost. A pinch or salt in a recipe for four people might not be a thing to think about but make the recipe in a large batch, it matters.


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## JohnK and Sheri

As PCM already mentioned, you will need to determine what the original poster meant by "a drop", keeping in mind he might not have been overly concerned about the definition himself. 
I think maybe you are over thinking this, chef. Wouldn't Rainesridge's formula be a good comparison? His makes a quart and takes an ounce of both oils. Compare the costs of his ingredients with the cost of a quart of HBH and ya got your rough comparison. The amount of the oils seem to vary by whoever is mixing it and does not seem to be a critical measurement, certainly not to the point of defining the size of a drop. Phillip's cost is $6 a quart, using 2 tsp per gallon dilutes it fairly thin, even doubling the amount of the oils would make it very cheap compared to HBH. 
Sheri


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## Nick Noyes

Does anyone have a recipe that uses cups or gallons? That is the one I am interested in.
It would look kind of funny standing over a 500 gal. tank with a couple of gallon jugs of oils and an eye dropper. Was that 3204 drops or 3205?


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## Chef Isaac

Nick:

Thats funny!!!

Sheri: True.


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## JohnK and Sheri

Nick you just need to make your drops VERY BIG!
Sheri


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## rainesridgefarm

*3000 lbs*

That is pretty funny. the reason I make a quart is that is what I use in a tote of Syrup. Spring is one quart to a 275 gal tote fall is two quarts to a tote. Hope that helps Essential oils are very concentrated and at one point the EPA wanted to have the FDA regulate them as they do pharmicutical drugs. A little goes a long way.


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## rainesridgefarm

*totes*

I just talked to the wife and I was wrong on our amounts. It is a half pint of each oil the totes. We make it up once a year then keep dipping to get it out of the bucket. Sorry


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## dickm

I've been skeptical about HBH for years. Can anyone point me to a good study that proves its worth?


dickm


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## Keith Jarrett

dickm said:


> I've been skeptical about HBH for years. Can anyone point me to a good study that proves its worth?dickm


Dick, HBH, good for formic acid to reduce queen loss, spray for combining hives, introduce queens, ect...

As far as a feed wonder drug, it's not.


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## rainesridgefarm

I agree I think it helps but it is not a silver bullet.


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## Chef Isaac

I read not to long ago that it helps fight nosema. Not sure where I read it and if it is true or not. Some people use it in place of Fumagilian.


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## Keith Jarrett

Chef Isaac said:


> Some people use it in place of Fumagilian.


Yeah, and some poeple complain they have dead hives from CCD & don't know why.


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## Chef Isaac

he he he


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## swarm_trapper

I feed a ton of it every year and do believe its helps quite a bit, in the overall health of the hives. 
I have had hives that did not get it this year and they just don't seem to do quite as good for me. But like every one says it dosen't take the place of any thing i still feed a lot of fumigillian, tera, and try to kill every mite in the hive ;-), and i also feed as many megabee patties as i can (not quite as much as keith lol). 
Pretty much what it boils down to is the more money you spend on the bees the better they seem to look. the way a good beekeeper spends money i consider them a stimulus plan for America lol.


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## Gregg

We fed HBH last fall instead of fumagillin, which I believe now was a very costly mistake, and one which I will never make again. Don't know if we had CCD or not, or just nosema (is there a difference?), but we had a lot of colonies with CCD-like symptoms, and continued to dwindle even in February & March in CA until they were completely dead. I estimate I lost 40% of my hives this winter


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## chillardbee

Gregg said:


> We fed HBH last fall instead of fumagillin, which I believe now was a very costly mistake, and one which I will never make again. Don't know if we had CCD or not, or just nosema (is there a difference?), but we had a lot of colonies with CCD-like symptoms, and continued to dwindle even in February & March in CA until they were completely dead. I estimate I lost 40% of my hives this winter


 I experienced the same thing 2 winters ago after feeding HBH in the fall. Although it might not be much EO, EO's are still oils and probable not suitable for bees when confined in the hive for long periods in the winter. In circumstances like this I think the oils give the bees the screaming 'you-know-whats'. this past fall I fed without EO's adding the recommended dosage per gallon of fumigillin and now I have the best bees I've had in a long time.

I still spray a medicated syrup on the bees in the fall with EO's that are different from what you would find in HBH but there is to little for them to store.

I found using HBH, or the EO's that make it up, in the syrup in the late spring has good results and using it as a spray for when applying formic acid like wise.


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## Bud Dingler

attending a local bee meeting this week a well known bee researcher pointed out that the only "proven" benefit from HBH is as a feed stimulant. 

the rest is folklore and hype. no single scientific study shows any benefits for nosema. Randy Olivers independent testing showed no benefit either for nosema. 

on this site I am continually amazed at the number of beeks trying to make unproven home made formulas work when we have safe and effective alternatives which actually have scientific evidence to back them up. 

a prime example is thymol. its the active ingredient in Apiguard. why not use it ? instead we have folks doing every thing from putting thymol in their smoker to feeding it in syrup. in my view its laughable and a utter waste of time and in the end bees when they die. 

stick with the science and safe labeled proven products and forget this mumbo jumbo recipes for disaster. like a good friend of mine a 80 year old beekeeper said " the thing about essential oils used in treatments is they essentially don't work!" .


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## irwin harlton

*study in Turkey*

http://www.scialert.net/pdfs/pjbs/2005/1142-1145.pdf

This result has not been duplicated that I know of, also discussed in previous threads


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## Chef Isaac

Great artical Irwin. Looks like it works in sugar syrup and according to Buds criteria, it is science. 

I think a lot of beekeepers try new things. It is a nature of humans to try through trial and error. Sometimes science is slow to reveal things. A lot of stuff beekeepers do (and others do as well) works but science has not weighed in on it. Just because science says something doesnt mean it is always right. Just like listening to the weather report!


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## BEES4U

*This result has not been duplicated*

I liked the sumation of the feeding trial.
Mostly about how thymol was rated.
Ernie


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## miniscule

I am an Aromatherapist. Not the hokey new age kind, but the science based common sense kind. Unfortunately, there have not been a whole lot of clinical studies and there is so much more to know about EOs. But extensive studies are going on as we speak in Europe, Cairo and in Arizona, just to name the university based studies I know of.

As for wintergreen - of the hundreds of oils I have, wintergreen is not one of them. It is a toxic substance, irritating and sensitizing and an environmental hazard. It has no use in aromatherapy at all. The true oil of wintergreen is obsolete, posing a new problem. Most oils called wintergreen are synthetic methyl salicylate.

I don't feel that either the synthetic or the real thing - if it could be found should be used with any living thing, let alone bees. All my books say "avoid!, both internally and externally".

There are better oils to use: The following are antibiotic, antiseptic, antiviral and antifungal: Lavender, Eucalyptus lemon, Eucalyptus radiata (very mild smell), onion, tea tree and thyme. Lavender is the most commonly found, and is also a real bonus to have around the house, as nothing is better for a burn, it can be used "neat" or without dilution on bare skin. Mixed with some clay and water to make mud - it is instant relief to bug bites. Haven't been stung yet to know if it works with bee stings, but since it works with every other bite or sting we have experienced so far, it is what I will be reaching for.

There are many other oils out there that share all, most or one or two of the "anti" properties mentioned above, but since there are so many books available now on the subject of essential oils, I really suggest getting one or two for your shelf before experimenting. Know your ingredients. ALSO - be sure to know the origin of your oils and always look for "pure" and "natural" on the label. Use organic whenever given the choice. If there is no country of origin on the bottle - don't buy it. The oils are expensive, and if you see a deal - it probably isn't pure. Adulteration of EOs with other oils and synthetics is very common.

There is my rant. I am new to bees, but not essential oils.


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## Chef Isaac

do you suggest a book?


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## miniscule

I can.
An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Essential Oils - Julia Lawless
Complete Book of Essential Oils and Aromatherapy - Valerie Ann Woowood
Complete Guide to Aromatherapy - Salvatore Battaglia

They are all good. The first one is a great quick but informative guide. The second is good for overall uses. The third is the most scientific of all, will be best for someone using the oils for more than aromatherapy, but is a very expensive book. Get an older edition used if you can find one.

Buying EOs in bulk is useless unless you can store them in a cool dark place. I use a closet on the north side of the house. One of the best places in the US to get them wholesale at a reasonable price is Liberty Naturals. There are other good, reputable places too, but not as reasonably priced.

Happy researching to you. My favorite thing - except when I was in college. Funny, isn't it?


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## Riverdog

So where are you guys buying the mint... lemon grass... ect...?

Thanks
River Dog


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## PCM

I get my Lemon Grass & speriment from;

Pure Essential Oil
P.O. Box 506
McIntosh NM
67032

Cheapest prices I found, Oh, and I'm not connected.

PCM


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## Natalie

Whole Foods.


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## Grant

PCM said:


> I get my Lemon Grass & speriment from;
> 
> Pure Essential Oil
> P.O. Box 506
> McIntosh NM
> 67032
> 
> Cheapest prices I found, Oh, and I'm not connected.
> 
> PCM



Do they have a web site URL?

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Ardilla

PCM said:


> I get my Lemon Grass & speriment from;
> 
> Pure Essential Oil
> P.O. Box 506
> McIntosh NM
> 67032
> 
> Cheapest prices I found, Oh, and I'm not connected.
> 
> PCM


Thats not a NM zip code. That 6 should probably be an 8. (Former UPS sorter with zip codes still swimming in my head...)


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## PCM

Yes you are correct !!

The Zip Code is 87032

Sorry, Ole Bumble Fingers types again
PCM


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## Bud Dingler

too bad this stuff had any benefit at all.

a midwestern researcher said at a recent meeting that her testing showed no effect other then slightly increasing syrup uptake. 

its a feel good additive - makes the beekeeper feel good they did something for their bees. 

get the concentrations mixed up in your recipe and you can even do more damage then just feeling good


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## Troy

Bud,

Even if it didn't help the bees, I would use it.

It allows me to store the made up syrup for months without it getting moldy. I also think it helps the bees communicate the nature of the food to their hive mates. The smell to a bee must be pretty strong. They can home right in on it and get to lapping it up.


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## PCM

Bud Dingler said:


> too bad this stuff had any benefit at all.
> 
> a midwestern researcher said at a recent meeting that her testing showed no effect other then slightly increasing syrup uptake.
> 
> its a feel good additive - makes the beekeeper feel good they did something for their bees.
> 
> get the concentrations mixed up in your recipe and you can even do more damage then just feeling good


Could you please identify this " midwestern researcher " ? :s

Unknown research info is sure confuseing.

Thanks 
PCM


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## Bud Dingler

my experience is unless you have a printed published article to reference researchers do not appreciate being quoted from meetings or conferences. 

it is very easy to slightly distort their message. I also value the communication pipelines I have with several researchers who provide me with up to date information that will never be piublished. some of it involves beekeepers and their mistakes which no one wants to broadcast. 

call a local bee researcher and ask about HBH. 

my background is extensive and I kept bees back when no one ever put anything into hives. In my late years now I have returned to that philosophy. Beekeepers are WAY to eager to put stuff into their hives. Science is never straight forward and its only now we have the proof of how devastating the contamination and synergy is between fluvalinate and comaphous (apistan and checkmite), we may find someday that putting these essential oils into a hive also impacts the delicate balance inside the hive. 

my advice is stick with the basics, raise your own queens preferably from resistant stock like VSH or Russian both proven to beat mites.


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## Bud Dingler

*also*

unless you get a certificate of analysis on these ingredients and have a strong background in chemisty you are shooting from the hip in the dark. 

Cheap essential oils can and often do contain other materials to dilute or assist with production. 

Resellers who are sometimes clueless can be less then honest or down right ignorant. Unless you know where an ingredient is made and have a discussion with the maker you have little gaurantee of what you are buying. Do you think the makers of HBH buy any oil off the internet? Of course not. 

Unless you have the resources or background to play honeybee 
medication chemist you are possibly damaging your bees and wasting time and money. 

Some 100% pure oils are toxic in their pure form. This topic is much more complicated then the discussion that precedes my post here. Many well meaning folks here are playing out of their league. 

I do not mean to trash anyone just raise the caution flag. In addition to my over 50 years with bees I also have an advanced degree in engineering with extensive R&D experience so I might know a thing or two.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: also*

Well, I was wondering what this stuff was good for and why I should use it. A friend of mine jumped right into it and he ususally doesn't jump into anything, very often, so I was wondering what the real benefits of using it would be. Thanks for the discussion.

It seems like some here think it's the best thing for bees since TM and others think that you shouldn't just use it because others are and others that you shouldn't use it because you don't really know what it does to your bees. Is that about the gist of it?

Who is using it? Any commercial outfits? Only sideliners and smaller outfits? 

Why are you using it? Are your bees missing something essential in their diet? Why?

What is it doing for your bees?

When are you applying it?

How and at what consentrations are you applying it?

Where in your hive are you spraying HBH?

Who, what, why, when ,how. That aught to about cover it.


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## jim lyon

Gee Mark is that really all you want to know? Actually most commercial outfits I know of are using it to at least some extent, including myself. My personal opinion is that we only really know two things about it for sure one is that it is a stimulant and is highly attractive to bees, the other is that it is pretty danged expensive. For those reasons we have just been using it late winter and early spring together with pollen supplements to try to get queens going a bit earlier for pollination purposes. The one downside to the stuff is that it can encourage robbing and should be fed with care when that is a concern. As far as all the other claims I think that they are largely unproven. I take with a grain of salt statements like: "I fed this to all my bees and now they are really good". I wish more people would just use it on part of their hives and try to do more of a controlled experiment.


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## sqkcrk

Yes, that is all. 

One reason I ask is that some friends of mine have used it every time they super or take off honey, since this past spring. Some of their remarks indicate an idea that HBH is useful as a mite control. 

I've asked them questions and they say,"Look it up on the internet. Isn't it on beesource? You're always on beesource. Look it up." So, since I did the Search and this Thread was all that came up under HoneybeeHealthy. So, here I am.


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## Roland

The jury is still out here. Nothing significant to report. 

Roland


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## Dale Hodges

I guess it depends on your mind set when you try it. If your looking for failure it will be easy to prove. The only claims HBH makes is that its a feed stimulant. IMO it does that. EO's are doing good things for our bees, a lot of research is proving this is true. I've been beekeeping since '63, I've seen a lot of fads come and go..yeah, I tried a bunch of them.It will delay mold in your syurp for a very long time. IMO HBH is here to stay, the girls like and the girls get what they want.


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## BeeCurious

Roland said:


> The jury is still out here. Nothing significant to report.
> 
> Roland


Adee seems to be sold on it:

http://beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=697

Is he big enough to sway opinion?


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## sqkcrk

Nah, he only has 100,000 cols. I was hoping to hear from a big beekeeper.


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## Roland

Beecurious - I was only speaking for my self when I stated "the jury is still out" . I apologize if I was misleading.

Roland


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## Arkansas Beekeeper

Check yellow pages for compounding pharmacies. probably obtain ingredients for much less or they may compound for you. Much easier to use metric calculations than English

Fluid Volume Measurements 
1 fluid ounce=30 ml 
4 fluid ounces=125 ml 
8 fluid ounces=250 ml 
12 fluid ounces=375 ml 
16 fluid ounces=500 ml


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## waynesgarden

BeeCurious said:


> Adee seems to be sold on it:
> 
> Is he big enough to sway opinion?


Nah, who cares about success? He doesn't have a study. It's Fumigillin for me.


Wayne


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## Ishi

I think he puts the HBH on blue shop towels.


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## deknow

Troy said:


> It allows me to store the made up syrup for months without it getting moldy.


might this not be a clue that necessary microbial action (including by molds and fungi) is likely also inhibited?



> I also think it helps the bees communicate the nature of the food to their hive mates. The smell to a bee must be pretty strong.


...and one might consider how bees communicate in the hive (largely by smell), and how adding such a strong smell might impact such communication?

deknow


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## sqkcrk

deknow said:


> might this not be a clue that necessary microbial action (including by molds and fungi) is likely also inhibited?
> 
> 
> ...and one might consider how bees communicate in the hive (largely by smell), and how adding such a strong smell might impact such communication?
> 
> deknow


Do you suppose that it would stimulate them to forage? Or something else?


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## deknow

i would suppose it does a number of things. eating a nutritionally deficient diet will certainly "stimulate" humans to "forage". improperly fermented pollen is without a doubt "nutritionally deficient".

deknow


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## Roland

I would think that a strong smell might be like a human entering a room and shouting. All other communications might suffer. Has anyone studied if the EO builds up in the wax? What are the degradation products? Don't get me wrong, I have tested it, and I sure like the smell, but in the end, what my nose likes is of little consequence. Or it could be like tiger repellent. If you have no tigers, it is hard to tell how well it works. I am glad that others have found it of great value.

Roland


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## mudlake

I use just a small amount of lemongrass oil.I don't mix large amounts of feed. 2 cups of sugar 1 gallon water. I pour as little oil on a spoon as I can. Less than a "drop" and mix in the dry sugar than hot water. Tony


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## NeilV

I have used a homemade HBH when feeding. Bees seem to take the syrup faster, and they have not shown any ill effects. The hives that go into winter with strong stores do best, on average. Last year, it was dry and the strongest hives were also the ones that took the most feed and it had homemade HBH in it. (I do agree that it would be best to not feed at all, and that stored honey is the best feed. However, July and August are usually hot and dry here and we don't have much of a fall flow. So I do what I need to do by feeding when needed in the fall.)

Homemade HBH does help keep stored syrup from going moldy. Without it, syrup can ferment and go moldy even in a feeder sometimes.

It also works as a spray when combining frames from different hives, as everybody smells the same until they get through licking each other and by that time they're all acting like perfect ladies.

The most obvious problem using it is that bees outside the hive are also attracted and robbing can be a problem. I usually will reduce entrances when I feed.

I acknowledge that there could be bad unintended consequences from using HBH. But that is true of every action and inaction I have to decide to take or not take as a beekeeper.

DeKnow's posts raise some legitimate concerns/issues IMO. One question I have is about how bees really experience pheremones. Alot of times, people speak of pheremones in terms of smells. I wonder whether that is really true. My personal theory is that the pheremones act directly on the bee's brains. IOW, I have always thought (really, speculated) that the pheremones are more like snorting cocaine than smelling an apple pie in the oven. 

Anybody have any ideas on that?

Neil


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## sqkcrk

NeilV said:


> DeKnow's posts raise some legitimate concerns/issues IMO. One question I have is about how bees really experience pheremones. Alot of times, people speak of pheremones in terms of smells. I wonder whether that is really true. My personal theory is that the pheremones act directly on the bee's brains. IOW, I have always thought (really, speculated) that the pheremones are more like snorting cocaine than smelling an apple pie in the oven.
> 
> Anybody have any ideas on that?
> 
> Neil


Well Neil,
Pheromones are chemical messangers that stimulate an insect to do something or not do something. Such as the queen pheromone that suppresses the workers ability to lay eggs.

Whether the bees actually smell, like you and I do, I don't know. But the message contained in the odor does do it's trick. And yes, they do act on the bees brain. But it isn't a very big brain and I believe that if I remember my anatomy correctly there is more than one group of ganglea. It isn't all in their head, like ours seems to be.


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## NeilV

But does "smell" in the human sense, really have any role or is smell just the result of the nature of the chemicals that are pheremones.

After I did that post, I remembered something that is interesting to me. Lemongrass oil actually contains about three chemicals that are exactly the same as the pheremone/active components of the Nasanov pheremone. Given that adding HBH to a hive is literally adding pheremones to a hive, that would tend to support DeKnows concerns. However, I still fail to see any adverse effects.

Neil


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Cannot find a good recipe when doing syrup in drums...anybody?
Mike


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## Riverratbees

I've done ribs when about half cooked mixed honey and barbaque sauce 50 50 mix was excellent


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

What are you talking about? this is a tread on HBH not BBQ! 
I meant a good recipe for HBH when dealing with syrup by the drum...I keep hearing stuff floating around...but there is not "the" recipe
mike


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## Grant

I think I've finally perfected the recipe for making a quart of home-made "feeding stimulant" concentrate that you spoon out at the rate of 1 tsp per quart of syrup and you can pro-rate that dose for a drum. It mixes well and you can make up any size or quantity. It costs about 1/3 the price of commercially available stimulants, honey-b-healthy is but one of several. The cost of the lemongrass oil and the spearmint oil are still the major expenses. I need to post this when I get time.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Thanks...really cannot find anything that makes a lick of sense. 

mike


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## alpha6

Hey King,

I mix by the drum. I use 27 droppers of Lemongrass and Spearmint and 13.5 of Thymol when feeding.


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