# Low Brood Count



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Little history: I started my first top bar hives last year. Both thrived until one got taken over by varroa. I wasn't educated enough to deal with it and it had collapsed by winter. The other hive did very well, had huge honey stores and seemed to winter rather well.

I live in Salt Lake City and it seems winter gave up quite the fight this year as April was full of random snow storms. I was finally able to get into the surviving hive today with temperatures in the 60s. However, a few things I noticed caught my eye and I don't have the experience to decipher what it means...that's where you come in.

I noticed brood from bars 3-10 but it was VERY random and thin. There would maybe only be 20-40 cells with brood in them per bar with all different stages of larvae. I also didn't see any eggs! Also, on bar 3, 4, 6, I found queen cells...or what I think to be queen cells, they aren't long and cone shaped like the ones I've seen pictures of
, but instead short, but they do stick out of the comb...no eggs in these either.

At first I thought the hive was queenless but after some searching I found her on bar 4...however, in the past when I found queens they were always surrounded by nurse bees in a circle and the queen was rather calm. This queen was RUNNING around, over and under bees...acting much more frantic than all the other bees on the comb.

The hive seems very active now that it's warming up. Could the lack of brood be due to the colder weather? What's up with the queen? What's up with these "queen" cells?

Here is what the cells look like. What is the difference between this and a longer queen cell?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Young, unmated queens (virgins), are very quick around the comb, noticeably more so than a mated queen. 

I can't say for sure without seeing the hive, but it sounds like what's happened is for one reason or another, probably just under 3 weeks ago, your hive has gone queenless. We know it was just under 3 weeks ago because you have the last few larvae still unhatched. When the hive went queenless they would have raised a new queen. She will have just hatched in the last few days (queen larvae develop faster than workers) and has not mated yet, that will be the one you've seen. Are there drones in your hives yet? There will need to be drones flying in the area for your new queen to mate successfully.

About your photo, that is not the queen cell the bees used to raise your queen, it is just an empty cup that most hives have a few of dotted around the hive, just incase the bees ever want to swarm or supersede.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Well said Oldtimer and this confirms my original thoughts.

Since it's so early in the season, due to cold temperatures, I have yet to see a single drone. However, I did buy a package of bees from my local bee store to replace the hive that died last year and although I haven't seen one, I would expect there would have been a drone in that package?

I'll also be getting two more packages this weekend from a local apiary, same place I got my bees from last year. I do recall them coming with quite a few drones.

So next question, has the queen been making flights looking for drones or will she wait? I expect when I start seeing eggs is when she has bred?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Young queens, if conditions are right, will mate at around one week from hatching, over a period of several days, and then lay their first eggs at around 2 weeks from hatching. They can take longer, due to such things as weather, or a shortage of suitable drones. There is a window of opportunity though, if she is not laying eggs 3 to 4 weeks from hatching, it is too late for her, she will never be able to mate. The exact amount of time varies with the strain of bee, that's why I've said 3 to 4 weeks.

If the only drones in your area are the ones that have arrived in packages, likely, that will not be enough. But it's just possible you might get lucky. As you really don't have any options, all you can do is wait and see. But you can use the time frame of a max of 4 weeks since hatching, if she is not laying eggs then, she won't, and you will have to consider options like requeening.

One other thing to be aware of is the possibility of a drone laying queen. Sometimes queens in this situation will become "drone layers". That means, having failed to successfully mate, they actually do start laying eggs, but the eggs are not fertilized, so even though they are laid in worker cells, they turn into drones. This is fairly easily diagnosed, the brood is quite patchy, and any sealed larvae are drones, even though they are in worker cells. There is no hope for such a queen, she needs to be replaced.

Anyhow please do update in time, it will be interesting to see how things turn out.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Again, thank you for the great input.

I'll check the hive until I notice whether the queen is laying drones or workers. So you're saying that drone larvae are capped when worker brood is not capped until later? Just trying to understand better what I'm looking for as this seems rather tricky since the drones aren't being laid in drone cells.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmm.. Not quite. Both worker and drone larvae will get capped. It's just that after capping they pupate, ie, take on the adult shape. So, a few days after capping you will be able to remove the cap to look at the larvae, and see if they are worker or drone.

If you are not sure, post a pic of them!


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Ah! That makes perfect sense! Thank you again!


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Here is an update:

Couple things, I opened up the hive yesterday morning looking for any eggs or any larvae that may be drones. As expected, there was a lot of older capped cells that seemed to be workers but there was a LOT of drone cells with larvae in it. Also, after searching through each bar, with the help of a helper and her eyes, we could not find the queen anywhere! I probably removed 1/3 of the bars looking through those and spread out all the rest...looking through each bar several times! No Queen! However, this is where it really get's interesting, they had actually built queen cells, yes, the long traditional queen cells where as a total of three were capped and at least 3 others spread throughout the brood comb.

After putting the hive back together I headed to my state's largest bee pickup, long awaited to say the least. I had ordered Italian Hybrid Hygenics and Carniolans. They apparently messed up on getting Carniolans so he gave me two packages of Hygenics and after telling him about my hive with the queen problem, because of the mix up, he GAVE me a caged Hybrid Hygenic Queen!

Long story short, I direct released her into the hive when I got home. My thinking is she will either kill the other queens as they hatch or one of the hatching queens will kill her? I'm not exactly sure what will happen. Should I remove the remaining queen cells and just leave here in there...or should I let the hive do what it think best? I think regardless, the hive will have a queen...I prefer they keep this queen as she's bred and ready to lay...

...what are your thoughts?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The queen cells can be caused by several things, without seeing the hive it's a bit tricky to answer. Often a mated queen will not kill queen cells, and when the cells hatch in the fight between a mated queen and a virgin, the virgin wins every time.

If you just run a queen into a hive without an introduction period she will most often be killed.

I think your options now, are to wait a few days and have a look in the hive and see if the queen is OK and laying eggs. Once you have an answer on that, update here with any questions.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

As a late update: My other hives were doing so well, I took a couple brood combs out and put them in the dying hive. Within a matter of a month there was a whole lot of activity in the hive. Hoping it wasn't the workers hatching and keeping the hive going, upon an inspection I found a laying queen! ...here is where it gets interesting, all my hives are Italian Hygenics of some sort...yet all the new workers are black!

I do a lot of open feedings in the garden with sugar water and have known there was a Carniolan hive somewhere nearby, but to find my queen has mated with one of it's drones was quite the treat! Something different and new is always good.

In short, the hive is doing great. I just hope they get their honey stores up for winter.

Also, as a side note. I found a LOT of varroa on the bees this spring. I tried treating with powdered sugar, thymol, and any other natural remedy I could find. When I moved the brood over I broke down and used Apistan. I HATE using anything chemical but haven't had any ill effects from it, nor have I seen any varroa since. Also, since I knew I wouldn't be taking any honey from it this year, there was no fear of myself ingesting it.

From a more experiences beekeeper, how am I doing?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

How are you doing? Pretty well. Good move giving them some brood and letting them sort out a queen for themselves.


----------

