# A case for long Dadants.



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I mean - people are running about with the Layens lately...
Layens this.
Layens that.

Let me tell you - look no further than ubiquities long Dadant hives.
I know - people in the US will ask - what is that?

People, the *long Dadant hives were first invented in the US.*
Look it up already. 

Why long Dadant?
Because the Long Dadant is much more mainstream hive vs. the fully custom Layens.

The classic Dadant frame is nothing other than *doubled medium Lang frame*
In a pinch, simply zip-up those Lang frames and your done
Cut off the ears from the lower frame.
You got yourself a classic 300mm Dadant frame - ubiquities across the Euro zone.

The Dadant frame is:

large and deep enough to successfully winter in most of the US in a single tier
small enough for most anyone to handle (including physically challenged people)
trivial to construct from existing Lang frames (unless one is willing and able to fully build frames)
fully compatible to existing Lang equipment (two double-medium boxes are perfect fit for a single Dadant frame - AS IS)
zipped frame is fully compatible to common extracting equipment (just unzip)
Here is a short Youtube video from Ukraine (the location has about the same climate as in lower Wisconsin).

What you can see on the video:

20-24 frame long Dadant hives
they have been visited about four-five times this summer (they are in war zone)
they gave a good honey crop
as pictured they have been reduced to about 8 frames each for the winter
observe how *trivial *is to treat them (if you choose or have to)
also realize how *trivial *is to feed the bees from above (if you choose or have to) - try this with your purchased Layens and feel the pain.. 
observe soft covers and follower boards are used
observe how insulation is used
notice how the hinged lids are easy to use
see how much space is in the hives to allow for excellent winter ventilation
also notice how much extra space is available for colony growth
also notice - there is space built-in for honey supers in the summer

The undeservedly forgotten long Dadant hives in the US in many ways are better hives than the currently marketed Layens hives.

(644) Пчёлы беспризорники чувствуют себя очень даже хорошо. Пасека для начинающих пчеловодов. - YouTube


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> I mean - people are running about with the Layens lately...
> Layens this.
> Layens that.
> 
> ...











Langstroth Jumbo Frames - packs of 10


Frames for Langstroth Jumbo brood body in the flat. Top bar 19", side 11 1/4", bottom 17 9/16". Made from Western Red Cedar at Rand in Lincolnshire.




www.thorne.co.uk


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## Beejiujitsu (Oct 1, 2021)

I’m a big fan of horizontal long langstroths hives.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregB said:


> People, the *long Dadant hives were first invented in the US.*
> Look it up already.


Hi Greg - have you got a link for that ? I've tried the usual searches - nothing has turned up yet ...
My understanding (thus far) has been that Dadant Hives were either 11 or 12 frame (Dadant's 'System of Beekeeping', Brother Adam, etc) - always willing to add updated info to the brain cell. 
'best,
LJ


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i was able to find fusion_power's post from a few years back where he detailed his conversion from langstroth to square dadant equipment:



Fusion_power said:


> I changed over from Langstroth equipment to Square Dadant in 2016 for all colonies. The advantages of Square Dadant are numerous with one significant disadvantage that the hive bodies are very heavy. All of the boxes, tops, and bottoms were cut from cypress by Albert Zook in Lawrenceburg, TN. I made my own frames with 32 mm end bars putting 14 frames in each Square Dadant box. Wired brood foundation was supplied by Dadant. Each frame has 3 horizontal wires to complement the vertical wires in the foundation. The frames are 11 1/4 inches deep and the boxes are 11 5/8 inches deep giving 3/8 inch for bee space between boxes. I use shallow square supers with 13 Kelley shallow frames until drawn out, then running 12 frames for honey production. This gives nice fat combs to extract. Here is Albert's address: Albert Zook, 26 Midway Road, Lawrenceburg, TN 38464
> 
> I have a 100 gallon Kelley tank, a 50 year old Kelley stainless 4 frame extractor, and a 40 year old Kelley bee blower which I use to take off honey. The 100 gallon tank does double duty for uncapping with a strainer and filter cloth in the top. The extractor is old enough that it was made to accommodate Dadant size frames so I can extract the deeps if I choose. I use a very sharp very thin bladed kitchen knife for uncapping. It works as well as or perhaps better than a heated uncapping knife so long as I remove wax buildup occasionally.


you can see the entire post here which includes a number of relevant links:









Beekeeping using Square Dadant hives, treatment free...


2019/02/10 I spoke with SquarePeg this afternoon. He asked if I would be willing to host a thread discussing my beekeeping efforts as a treatment free beekeeper using Square Dadant hives. I agreed to do so with a caveat that I will be super busy in April and May as I also run a plant business...




www.beesource.com


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Talk is cheap.

The grass is always greener on the other side......

I sold my Horizontal cheap, and was glad to see it go.......
All I wanted to do was put a super on it!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

JustBees said:


> Talk is cheap.
> 
> The grass is always greener on the other side......
> 
> ...


What depth of frame? What experience leads you to _diss_ the idea or the man?


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

JustBees said:


> I sold my Horizontal cheap, and was glad to see it go.......
> All I wanted to do was put a super on it!


I super my horizontal ukrainian hive, I don't see a problem with that. I only have to put one level of supers on top as they sit side by side, I still have plenty of room below for brood and extra honey, and I only have to lift off one box to check the brood nest or do treatments. 

Win, win, for me and my type of beekeeping.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Beejiujitsu said:


> I’m a big fan of horizontal long langstroths hives.


IMO, these are much better than top bar no bottom bar frames. 
Also, IMO, if you have to move your hives once or twice a year, anything above more than 10 frames would be very difficult to handle and move and thus is not worth the effort.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The thread opener was promoting single brood in a longer format than the common 10 frames AND most especially the Dadant depth frame or a pair of siamesed Lang frames to achieve the same effective depth of ~12" compared to a standard 9 1/4" depth Langstroth deep. I think it fairly well established that cold country wintering success is enhanced by the deeper frame.
Honey storage can be above with conventional Lang supers or if you cannot handle lifting them, the storage can be on the same level in frames to the rear of the long box.

If you dont like the system you can put the frames back in conventional boxes or board up the extended portion and use it for storage. The remaining 10 frame front then can be treated as a rather stationary Langstroth bottom box!

This past summer i populated a version of a deep and long stationary hive that I will play with to see how I like it. It is a fairly painless start up compared to making up the specialized Layens frames that few people have extractors for. I think that was Gregs thrust.


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## Johnwb (12 mo ago)

@GregB I feel personally attacked..... haha just kidding. I am greatful that you sare all the different styles out there.
I am looking into what is going to be best moving forward now that I have started with Layens, but now know a lot more then when I started and have SO MUCH MORE to learn.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> *Hi Greg - have you got a link for that ? I've tried the usual searches - nothing has turned up yet ...*
> My understanding (thus far) has been that Dadant Hives were either 11 or 12 frame (Dadant's 'System of Beekeeping', Brother Adam, etc) - always willing to add updated info to the brain cell.
> 'best,
> LJ


Hi LJ,
Indeed, the *easiest *to find source that brings up the long Dadant hive is well known book - "Dadant System of Beekeeping" (the one you referred to):

Dadant system of beekeeping (valleybees.org.au)

The book documents the fact that C. Dadant mated (1) the Quinby-Dadant frame and (2) the long-idea hive together.
Surely, more sources can be dug up if time and energy are available.

The long hives are not the invention of C. Dadant - far from it.
But as far as "long Dadant hive" in particular - it was tried out in the US first - a long-idea hive using the Dadant frames (naturally, the Dadant frames themselves originating from the US).

In fact, Dadant did not find the long hives to be suitable for *commercial honey production.*

We never argued about this - unsure what the arguments are about (e.g. "long hives suck" and the like - as if one cannot super a long hive if desired - a made-up issue).

What we have been saying all along - the long hives are very well suitable for hobby/small scale/ergonomic/low intensity/non-migratory beekeeping.

Also, if going for the long hives - it is advantageous to be using larger frames.
The conventional Lang frame is not the best frame for the long hive - it is too small and too shallow.
Ranted enough on this subject.

From a variety of the long hives (Layens is just one) - the long Dadant is a very attractive option because it is directly compatible to very common Lang equipment, and yet it offers several important advantages (I listed them above and brought up a video demonstrating them).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Johnwb said:


> @GregB I feel personally attacked...........


LOL

All I am saying - it is a shame that the long Dadant hives are virtually unknown in the US. One of those "best kept secrets" whereas half the world is using them. Long Dadant is virtually a traditional "Grandma hive" - which says it all.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

From my short *experience as a backyard beekeeper* I think one can keep bees in any hive type as long as:

*Varroa is taken care of*. I use OA and OTS brood brake.
*Bees have enough food for the winter.* In my insulated hives <40lb is OK near Chicago.
*The queen is good for the area the bees live in*. This year I ended up with queens being 5-6 generation daughters of the super queen bought as "Carniolan" queen in 2019. I use OTS or grafting to rise my queens, but swarm cells are good, too.
*The beekeeper learns from his/hers own mistakes*, but it is better and cheaper (@GregB right?) to learn from other people mistakes IMO.
Having *standard frames is a big plus for me *because I can spend my time on other hobbies instead of making custom frames. I am a woodworker and I made almost all furniture in my house except of chairs, which would be just to much of repeatable operations for my taste.

After going through standard wooden Lang hive, TBH, Long Lang hive (aka Dartington), 6 frame over 6 frame hive I ended up with insulated poly hives using standard Lang frames and *deep+supper as a replacement for a Dadand-Blatt* hive size.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> From my short *experience as a backyard beekeeper* I think one can keep bees in any hive type as long as:
> 
> Varroa is taken care of. I use OA and OTS brood brake.
> Bees have enough food for the winter. In my insulated hives <40lb is OK near Chicago.
> ...


I will add to your "as long as" qualification list:

you, the beekeeper, are *able *to operate the hive of your choice
Am sitting here and my worn-out shoulder is nagging about all work I did over the last weekend.

I'd be the last idiot if I spent the last weekend lagging about boxes of honey frames (which I did not). No amount of honey harvest is worth the one and only, irreplicable shoulder joint.

Some people still insist on harvesting the ton of honey - so that they can pay the hospital and Physican bills spent on fixing the damaged body (while harvesting that honey).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> I ended up with insulated poly hives using standard Lang frames and *deep+supper as a replacement for a Dadand-Blatt* hive size.


While the classic Dadant-Blatt hive (12 frame) can be a bear to manage in some cases (e. g. poor mobility), the Dadant-Blatt frame itself is a very good frame and be run in a variety of setups.
It can be 24-36-..... long hive.
Or it can be 6x6x6.......... vertical setup.

The Dadant-Blatt frame is not really needed for the vertical sets (too heavy for vertical applications) - I actually prefer (and test) small frames in the vertical configuration.

But for a long hives configuration I'd very much consider the Dadant-Blatt frame if starting from zero.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I think a Dadant depth long hive is a great idea. I personally am not a long hive guy. But i do have several 12 fr. MD hives. Single brood box hives is where its at for me these days. I have many langstroth colonies managed as singles and it is a viable way to go. But the 12 frame md dadant hives are powerhouse's. The only thing is if you are going to use the 11 1/4" frames for honey is to make sure you have an extractor that can handle them. However crush and strain is an option for people with only a few colonies. I remember betterbee was selling an extractor that could handle both dadant and layens frames probably Lyson product.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

GregB said:


> Long Dadant is virtually a traditional "Grandma hive" - which says it all.


Guilty as charged LOL


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Clayton Huestis said:


> I remember betterbee was selling an extractor that could handle both dadant and layens frames probably Lyson product.


Lyson products become more and more available, thou can be overpriced yet. 
I would not buy it for 2-3 hives.
But 20-30 hives? Well... Maybe.
(661) Honey Harvest Extraction from Layens Frames October 10, 2022 - YouTube


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> Guilty as charged LOL


For you, Ursa, the Dadant frame is a bit on a shallow side, IMO - given your climate. 
But you already have a good rig going for yourself.

At my place I can see the Dadant frame being adequate.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

GregB said:


> Lyson products become more and more available, thou can be overpriced yet.


Agreed. Wait till one of these hobbyist with Layens hives quits and buy it half price.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Clayton Huestis said:


> Agreed. Wait till one of these hobbyist with Layens hives quits and buy it half price.


That lady with her Layens and that nice Lyson spinner is just North of me. 
She is stubborn at trying to stay TF - pretty sure will lose her bees again this year. I better stay in touch. LOL


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

GregB said:


> For you, Ursa, the Dadant frame is a bit on a shallow side, IMO - given your climate.
> But you already have a good rig going for yourself.
> 
> At my place I can see the Dadant frame being adequate.


I agree, I think I was referring to the 'grandma' part of your comment. But this grandma loves the ukrainian style of hive, with the CV influenced smaller frame supers. No problem taking those off full of honey.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

> Quote from: ABC and XYZ of BEE CULTURE
> 
> 
> > Excerpt from "The ABC and XYZ of BEE CULTURE"
> ...


O. O. Poppleton himself.
Notice the frame.
This is NOT a Langstroth frame.
This is not a Dadant frame either.









Here are the specs of his hive and frame:



> The hive that ;Mr. Poppleton uses, or did
> use up to a year ago before he sold out, has
> a brood-nest or hive-body 40x13 inches
> deep, by 13 wide, inside measure. *This will
> ...


Search the full text of the resource for "Poppleton" and read the entire write-up.
It is excellent.
From: Full text of "Gleanings in bee culture" (archive.org)


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

And here is the "case for the long Dadants" directly from the Mr. O. O. Poppleton himself:


> I then asked him whether it would be
> practicable to make a twenty-four frame
> hive on Lang-stroth dimensions. *If he were
> going to start again, rather than take Lang-
> ...


From: Full text of "Gleanings in bee culture" (archive.org)


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

And to pile on:


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregB said:


> Hi LJ,
> Indeed, the *easiest *to find source that brings up the long Dadant hive is well known book - "Dadant System of Beekeeping" (the one you referred to):


Hi Greg - Ok, I see what you're referring to now ...

By "invented" I was rather more expecting/hoping for a link to someone who had designed, built, and had been running Dadant Long Hives for a while with some degree of success. 
For Charles Dadant of course his 20-frame 'Quinby' Hive was one of several experiments he conducted en route to his final choice.

For the benefit of anyone else who may be interested in this - the following is taken from the 1920 Dadant System of Beekeeping, authored by C.P.Dadant, who was Editor of the ABJ at that time, and son of the legendary Charles Dadant. 

_*Size of Hives*
The Quinby hives originally made by Moses Quinby and first adopted by us contained *8 *frames measuring 10 1/2 x 18 inches inside. The Langstroth hives of standard size contained 10 frames, measuring 8 x 16 7/8 inches inside. The former hive had therefore a capacity of 92 square inches of comb over the latter. We found both too small, for when we placed supers with combs over those hives in the spring, the queens would go up into those supers and lay eggs, after they had filled the lower story. Mr. Dadant senior then tried Quinby hives of different capacities, up to *20 *frames of comb, or with a capacity of 3780 square inches of comb. *These were too large by all means, *and although we used some 40 of them for several years, we *could only produce honey on what was later called "the long idea," that is to say we had both brood and surplus honey in the same apartment.* Although the colony usually occupied one side of the hive with brood, the queen often roamed from one end of the hive to the other and honey sometimes had to be extracted from combs containing brood, a very undesirable arrangement.

To give the reader an idea of the number of hive experiments made by the senior Dadant, we will say that he tried hives with frames 18 x 18 inches, looking like regular barns. These combs proved too large; they would break down readily in hot weather. 
He also tried hives with frames in the shape of a coffin, because he had noticed that bees rear their brood and cluster themselves in as near a round shape as possible. The coffin shaped frame was the nearest possible to a circle in a hive made of lumber. The bees thrived in them. But the difficulty was in placing supers on those hives. After a few years of trial they were discarded also.
After a number of similar experiments, Dadant senior finally adopted a Quinby hive of 11 frame capacity, reducing it to 10 or to 9 frames or even to a less number for small swarms, with one or two division boards._

C.P.Dadant goes on to mention that the frame and hive design finally agreed upon proved itself during the 1876 season, and so his father's experiments would have been conducted during the years prior to that. CPD also goes on to discuss issues related to the side-storage of the Layens Hive (on p.26). The first Edition of Georges De Layens book was published in 1874. 

Although Anton Janscha used fixed-comb Long Hives way back in the 18th Century, D.L.Adair is usually credited with being the first to invent the modern framed Long Hive in 1872 - but sure, Dadant could possibly have technically preceeded him with that idea.

Adair's 'No.15 Hive' - it's original name - had 14 x 10 frames with touching tops and side-bars, and so was essentially a hive within a hive. Following discussions with Eliza Gallup, a more conventional hanging-frame configuration was adopted in which Gallup used his 11 x 11 frames. Amos Root jumped onto the Long Hive band-wagon, and tried marketing a 36-inch version as the 'Standard Hive' with frames 14 x 11. Poppleton favoured the American 12 x 12 frame, with partially touching top-bars.

So the longest frame-length *successfully *used - certainly up until 1915 or so, was 14 inches. Afaik, adoption of the Langstroth frame length in Long Hives only began fairly recently with the 'Alternative Hive' revival, and using the Langstroth Deep Frame - unless others know differently, of course ... 

Of my own Long Hives, those with 14 x 12" frames in general perform much better than those with our 14 x 8.5" Deep frames, although both formats will work ok within our relatively mild climate. I do have two 14 x 12 hives which are only 24" long, and these will be supered next season - I'll use 5-frame supers to keep the weight managable - I can't see that supering a Long Hive for a few months each season need ever be an issue ... 
'best,
LJ

PS - on a practical note - it's not often I disagree with you, Greg, but on this one ... Personally, I would not even try to lift a fully capped 14 x 12 frame of honey with just my finger-tips any more - there's far too much weight there. I now use frame-grabbers for this. A 14 x 8 1/2" is just about managable with fingers. But a Dadant size ? I'd say a person would be ill-advised to use such a large capacity frame for honey storage. Brood, certainly - but not honey. Imo.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> PS - on a practical note - it's not often I disagree with you, Greg, but on this one ...* Personally, I would not even try to lift a fully capped 14 x 12 frame of honey with just my finger-tips any more* - there's far too much weight there. I now use frame-grabbers for this. A 14 x 8 1/2" is just about managable with fingers. But a Dadant size ? I'd say a person would be ill-advised to use such a large capacity frame for honey storage. Brood, certainly - but not honey. Imo.


I will say this - when *fully loaded*, it is an *effort *to lift one of my own frames (which would be equivalent to the deep Dadant in weight). Have to really pay attention.

Also, I had accidents when a screwed-in top bar came out under the weight - NOT a pretty sight (I since switched to much more reliable zip ties when attaching the top bars).

However, it is seldom to never when I see 90-100% loaded frame. The very bottom of the frame bees hardly ever fill up.
They typically max out at about 80% full.
More typically I harvest frames at 50-75% full.
This fact makes the handling a little easier. 

Like this frame would be a pretty heavy one.
But you can see, it has much wasted area to the woodwork as well.
It is manageable.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Hi Greg - Ok, I see what you're referring to now ...
> 
> By "invented" I was rather more expecting/hoping for a link to someone who had designed, built, and had been running Dadant Long Hives for a while with some degree of success.


Somewhat liberal usage of the word "invented" on my part.
It is fine.

But you know, as typical here - we will never know who truly invented many things in the beekeeping world.
Someone nameless did it somewhere (likely more than once).
No doubt - at least some instances did occur in the North America independently and were live-tested too.

The more I read about Mr. Poppleton, the more I like his long hive design and his management ways (mobile ways too!!!).

Been thinking about the 12x12 frame again (American frame they called it in the publications).
The frame is actually fitting my own designs with already 12.5" wide frames (both deep and shallow).
Something like ~12.5"x12.5" would work very well.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> I'll use 5-frame supers to keep the weight managable - I* can't see that supering a Long Hive for a few months each season need ever be an issue ...*
> 'best,
> LJ


Exactly.

I have done supering this season and extracted enough honey for the family and the landlord payments over the weekend.

Have not even pull any deep frames yet - which is not a terrible rush.

But supering - this is where the Dadant frame long hive would be better - at the 12" deep frame, the bees will be more prone to work the added super.
Supering of Dadant frame long hives is rather a common approach - lots of video material is available to show this.

When the frame is already 17"+ deep (mine), bees are less prone to come up (I had mentioned this observation before).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BTW, here is the picture of the long Dadants (from aforementioned Dadant book). You can make it out just by looking at the dimensions of the hives. They are rather squat and correspond to the Dadant frame (unlike the Layens/Ukrainians and even the Poppleton hives). 
Including the Dadant frame pictures too.


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## Beejiujitsu (Oct 1, 2021)

Gino45 said:


> IMO, these are much better than top bar no bottom bar frames.
> Also, IMO, if you have to move your hives once or twice a year, anything above more than 10 frames would be very difficult to handle and move and thus is not worth the effort.


This hive is a permanent fixture in my back yard, serving for splits and boosting weak colonies.

An unintended side effect from the design is being able to harvest clean drone comb from the bottom frames.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> What we have been saying all along - the long hives are very well suitable for hobby/small scale/ergonomic/low intensity/non-migratory beekeeping.
> 
> Also, if going for the long hives - it is advantageous to be using larger frames.
> The conventional Lang frame is not the best frame for the long hive - it is too small and too shallow.
> Ranted enough on this subject.


I have a couple long hives with lang frames mine are 2 frames deep.
true they cannot be moved, but neither can the chicken coop in most places.

so these hives are great for increase, one puts his mother queen into this hive mid season.
let them grow, adding 2 or 4 foundations every 3-5 weeks. I can get them to 18 over 18 in s season.
Now the end 1/3 is honey, so if you have light hives simply take 2 or 4 frames out and move the divider.
Mine also is very insulated R15 ish. In spring let them spin and check every 7 days in time you will find queen cells, then 1 to 6 or 7 split can be made.
Or you can get frames of bees every week or 2 to make other splits up. Some what resource hive concept.
NOW 
would I want ALL my hive like this no
do I want all 5 frame NUCs no, I have both and want/need both.
I mostly have 10 and 8 frame lang, can go back and forth with every hive I have, and in some cases the big double deep long lang is awesome. This year I also robbed full frames for a late swarm. Pulled a couple for a light NUC.
IMO no Hive is a be all end all, each hive has a few nice features, and a draw back or 2.
As is said many ways to skin a cat, the long hive is a tool, in some locales you can even winter in a single deep one.
And I have 1 frame size and an extractor that they fit into.
5F, 8F, 10F, double deep long lang. works well.
I often go from a 5 over 5 to an 8 over 8, then 10 over 10.
from 10 over 10 to 8 over 8 and a 4 frame split. 
As long as what YOU have works for you then bully for you.

For you Boolean minded folks.
AND all the features of what I use and little ground is left uncovered.

Had extractors been readily available when I started, the Dadant deep frame would have been a fine choice.
The tall frame for winter feature is very important up north, I need to do it in 2 or 3 frames deep.
I think a divided 12 frame 6 side by 6 dadant would winter well somewhat like the Palmer style side by side NUCs.
long hives of the dadant frames would also work for increase.

if starting new, I would definitely give it a shot.

GG


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## Taku (5 mo ago)

I am working with Dadant deep, single brood box hives as they are traditionally widespread in Eastern Europe. Small fraction of our hives are long Dadants from pre WW2 years and remaining are vertical hives.
I am not enthusiastic about those long Dadants since long hives require more work than vertical hives. Only one ½ super means more frequent intrusion into brood area if you want to maximize honey yield.
But since we are always short of hives for swarming periods, long Dadants are kept and used constantly


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> For you Boolean minded folks.


My new word for the day, I had to look this one up LOL.

I like the long Dadants for sure, the frame size looks easy to handle, but to add for later readers, I don't necessarily think that you need to build one that cannot be moved if that is what is holding a person back who chooses to do a long hive. 

I built my last two to hold 16 frames, not a lot by the long Dadant hive standard of 25, but I built it out of lumber and just set one on top of the other till the stack was tall enough to hold the frames. I did not bother about the increased bottom space as I intend to put a slatted rack in when I use them next spring. 

I am, lets say kindly, on my way to being elderly  and I have no problem lifting of one of the levels that makes up the three I needed for the hive body. I can, and have, moved it multiple times.

Sometimes you just have to think about what you want and need and then solve the problem accordingly


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Taku said:


> I am not enthusiastic about those long Dadants since *long hives require more work than vertical hives.*


For you.
For others it is otherwise.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregB said:


> BTW, here is the picture of the long Dadants (from aforementioned Dadant book). You can make it out just by looking at the dimensions of the hives.
> 
> View attachment 71659


Hi Greg - I haven't visited this thread for a short while - which is very remiss of me. I was about to add a post to the Dadant vs Layens thread I've just started, and wanted to check what I'd already written here, and so only saw the above 'Alamy-sourced' picture for the first time - which I immediately recognised.

It's only a small point, but one which I think need correcting: you've been fed some duff info, Greg - if you check page 18 of Dadant's 'System of Beekeeping' (1920), you'll see that this is actually a picture of Layen's Hives.








Following on from that picture, on page 26, C.P. Dadant writes:
*Side Storage *
_In a former chapter, we mentioned very wide hives, with side storage, under what is now termed "the long idea" system. Such hives are used in a number of localities, but the very deep hives are better suited to this method. So the most persistent system of side storage is followed with the De Layens hive, containing as many as 20 or more frames,* 12 or 13 inches deep or nearly square.* The difficulty is that *the queen is at liberty to roam from one comb to another and may have a little brood in most of the frames. *Then the honey is difficult to extract. We even tried section boxes and storage boxes in the sides of those hives. The bees prefer to place their honey close to the brood and as much as possible above it. This side storage proved inacceptable, whether in frames or sections. _

So - two comments to make: the first being that Layens frames are *not *12 or 13 inches deep, but with a depth of 16" (14.5" internally), and a width of 12" they could in no way be described as "nearly square".

The second point is that Dadant has complained about the Queen laying in all of the combs, and yet in the very next paragraph, he goes on to describe the common use of Queen Excluders to prevent this ! (albeit in vertical beehives)
*Queen-Excluders *
_It is quite the custom for beekeepers to use queen-excluders between the brood apartment and the supers, whether running for extracted honey or for comb-honey._

So the use of a queen-excluder in a Layens hive represents a very easy 'fix' indeed for that particular issue.
I appreciate that Dadant is trying to sell the idea of his (or rather his father's) System of Beekeeping, but there really needs to be a limit as to how much creative licence an author employs when engaged in that pursuit. (imo)
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> you've been fed some duff info, Greg


Very well could be.
If so, I stand corrected.
It takes time, effort, and attention to sift thru the information - these are in short supply. 

But overall, long Dadants are a very viable option still - especially when people are ready to go fully custom (as they do with Sharashkin Layens - without real understanding of the practical implications - I am helping out a Polish-American guy right now who owns a Sharashkin hive).

Long, single-tier hives are by design benefit from larger frames.
The Dadants fit OK into this niche.

Small/shallow frame long hives (while OK in warmer climates) - are not really ideal.
These include typical TBH/Lang long hives.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Well, I've got an idea - if anybody is indeed hell-bent on running a Long Hive with Dadant frames, here's one solution to avoid having extra-deep stores combs. 

It's nothing more than a modificatioon to the Layens 'Grenier' variant, with the elevated stores combs all at one end, rather than at both ends with the extra-deep brood combs in the middle. If the stores frames are then spaced at 44mm, there should be no need for a QX, according to Jean Hurpin.










Here's a shot of how I used some moveable 'blocks' to achieve the same set-up in a 14x12-based Long Hive without having to make a special hive body first. It worked well-enough.










In the case of Langstroth-based equipment, if mediums (say) are chosen, then the process of pulling stores frames and extracting them would then be no different to that of working a vertical hive.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Nice, short vid by a lady-beek.
Long Dadants.
A very good compromise for both beeks and bees.
If this is not easy, then I don't know what it is.
(914) Пчеловодство. Снега нет морозы до -25 Пчёлы живы. Apiculture. Snow no frost up to -25 - YouTube


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Found a cool video from Ukraine - about the classic, old long Dadants.
These are un-movable monsters - but perfect for low impact, stationary set.

(978) Покинута пасіка. Зимівля бджіл - YouTube


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

little_john said:


> Well, I've got an idea - if anybody is indeed hell-bent on running a Long Hive with Dadant frames, here's one solution to avoid having extra-deep stores combs.
> 
> It's nothing more than a modificatioon to the Layens 'Grenier' variant, with the elevated stores combs all at one end, rather than at both ends with the extra-deep brood combs in the middle. If the stores frames are then spaced at 44mm, there should be no need for a QX, according to Jean Hurpin.
> 
> ...


LJ
is the entrance then in the end where the deeper frames are?

GG


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Gray Goose said:


> LJ
> is the entrance then in the end where the deeper frames are?
> GG


Yes. I make an entrance at the end of the hive, so as to produce 'warm-way' access to the brood combs - a method of entry I much prefer, and use on all* (*) *my hives - from 5-frame nucs right up to Deep Long Hives. But - if 'cold-way' access is preferred, then simply make an entrance in the long side, as near to one end as is convenient. 
'best,
LJ
*(*) *- except eight 6-frame boxes which I made when I first started, and which don't really lend themselves to an entrance change.


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## Taku (5 mo ago)

little_john said:


> If the stores frames are then spaced at 44mm, there should be no need for a QX, according to Jean Hurpin.


It works most of the time. My honey frames are spaced at 45mm (center to center) and queen is avoiding them. Sometimes drone brood but rarely.
Don’t have a single QX in my apiaries.
In brood frames (if blacks are rotated out) queen stays in the middle and side frames are brood free even with standard spacing.


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