# NO SUGAR for my bees!



## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

"I know that sugar is a dead and denatured food with no life energy"

This is wrong. There are 15 Kcals of energy in every teaspoon of sugar. 

One quick question if I might: At what time did bees, who have evolved over millions of years to eat nectar (which is mostly sucrose, i.e. table sugar) and pollen, eaten agave syrup? 

Keith

[ June 14, 2006, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]


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## Sharkey (May 27, 2004)

Well.............

What is "dead food" and "life energy" to JerseyBees ?


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

To each his own. That's what makes the human race unique. You think your way, and I'll think mine.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Iddee - I agree completely, you can think whatever you like. And that is, what exactly?

Keith

[ June 14, 2006, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I think 25 lb. bag of sugar in 3 gallon of water heated in my turkey cooker is a heck of a lot easier than trying to find all those things he's talking about and mixing in the right proportions. Not only that, but the sugar gets the job done. There may be many ways that are better, but my way is quick, easy, and works. 

That's good enough for me.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>Because of their relationship with humans they are afflicted by many diseases.

Sort of like bird flu, I'd guess. Great! Now we've got bee flu to worry over. Will it never end?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Anything other than nectar or sugar syrup has too many solids. Bees cannot deal with solids well, so they will get dysentary on things like cactus syrup or fruit juice or other unrefined sugars. Humans do better on WITH solids.

Just because something is not great for humans does not mean it has the same effect on bees. Bees are not humans.

If there is a problem with sugar it's probably that the pH is very different from that of nectar and honey. The problem with giving sugar syrup to bees, is NOT that it's refined. For bees, that is an improvement over fruit juices or raw sugar. The only other differences are very small amounts of some trace minerals that are in the nectar, which the bees might find other places if they need them.


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

To each his own, eh.


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## Curtis (Jun 25, 2005)

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...I think I will go hug a tree........
Curtis


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

Well, I personally think that bombarding the bees with un-necessary and/or without a specific purpose, Essential Oils would not be good for the bees health. You can also destroy their resistance and/or acceptance to EO's just as well by giving it to them when they don't need it or for no rhyme or reason. Naturally, the bees go forage for what they need. You would be so surprised at the contents and medicinal benefits of certain local native trees - ask any Native American, they will tell you. Seriously, the bees do seem to know what they need and we should not interfere too much. Everyone who knows anything about the use of Essential Oils, knows that they have purpose and are by NO means innocuous or simply charming - even for the bees. They should be used with care and understanding.

Personally, I wish I could grow Neem trees up here in the mountains, because in India and Nepal, this tree supplies alot for the bees. Neem is known as the "village pharmacy" and has so many valuable uses from toothpowder, soap, shampoo, internal medicine, skin conditions, the list goes on. One of my Indian friends raves about Neem Honey and how valuable it is medicinally and for the bees too. BUT, it is not something that is forced to the bees, it is a natural tree that grows wild in Asia. Could be why Asian bees have such a higher tolerance to mites and diseases..who knows.

About the sugar....I think most of us have a respectful understanding about this feeding process and it is also process that has worked for many years with the old time beekeepers. When something better comes along that is proven effective, then I would consider it. About the only thing I feed natural sugar to is my hummingbirds...and I use organic sugar that is slightly tan for that. I really like HFCS for feeding my bees anyhow, its so easy and doesn't seem to sour and ferment as fast as sugar does. Oh well.


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(This is wrong. There are 15 Kcals of energy in every teaspoon of sugar. 

One quick question if I might: At what time did bees, who have evolved over millions of years to eat nectar (which is mostly sucrose, i.e. table sugar) and pollen, eaten agave syrup?) 

All live foods contains electrial activity (everything alive has an electrical field as part of its being)Read PHD DR. Robert Young`s "Ph Miracle" book. All live foods contain enzymes,correct ph, vitamins, minerals,other identified and unidentified conutrients not just empty cals which mess up the immune system.

I am new to beekeeping and i`m looking for a alternative to the dead food that sugar is. That is why I choose Agave.


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(That's good enough for me.)I think 25 lb. bag of sugar in 3 gallon of water heated in my turkey cooker is a heck of a lot easier) 

It is that common belief and attitude that shows no respect or veneration to the Fascinating Honey bee. And it shows up as multible diseases and parasites with the bees.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Is it also a "common belief" and a show of disrespect to mention the fact that bees do not deal with solids well at all?? I concur with Michael, feeding raw agave cactus syrup could lead to digestive issues real fast.

As to "dead food"..... I'll let that one lie. But I have to ask, what is the "life force" in food you are talking about??

Curtis.... don't be bringing tree hugging into this one.


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(specific purpose, Essential Oils would not be good for the bees health.)

The oils purpose is for mite control and I have been finding more dead mites under the varroa screen.I`m open to other non-toxic mite control.


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

As to "dead food"..... I'll let that one lie. But I have to ask, what is the "life force" in food you are talking about??

Phd Dr. Robert Young, look into it. All live foods and creatures process a electrical field.
When Honey bees visit a flower it picks up on the strength of it`s fullness of nectar by the strength of it`s electrical field first.It is a part of the full sprectrum of nutrition that we all need.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I have not read Young, and probably will not either. It has always taken more than a Phd to impress me. When folks start talking about electric food, or riding the Hale-Bop Comet, I usually take cover.

Here's and excerpt regarding Young's credentials.

"Dr." Robert O. Young lacks legitimate credentials. A recent e-mail response to a query addressed to the Web address of Robert O. Young, co-author of The Ph Miracle, indicated that he does not have a graduate degree from a school accredited by a recognized accrediting agency. According to the sender, Young's credentials include: "M.S. Nutrition" (1993); "D.Sc. Science" (1995); "Ph.D., Nutrition" (1997); and "N.D. (Naturopathic Doctor" (1999). *All were issued by the American Holistic College of Nutrition in Birmingham Alabama, which is a nonaccredited correspondence school* Young claims that health depends primarily on proper balance between an alkaline and acid environment that can be optimized by eating certain foods. These claims are false. [Mirkin G. Acid/Alkaline Theory of Disease Is Nonsense. Quackwatch, Feb 6, 2003] Young's Web site states that he "has been widely recognized as one of the top research scientists in the world," and his book states that he "has gained national recognition for his research into diabetes, cancer, leukemia, and AIDS." However, neither the e-mail message nor a Medline search for "Young RO" identifies any articles authored by him that were published in a recognized scientific journal.

http://www.ncahf.org/digest05/05-14.html#young

[ June 15, 2006, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Sundance ]


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>It is that common belief and attitude that shows no respect or veneration to the Fascinating Honey bee...

Honey bees are not some sort of mystical creation. Well, ok maybe, but no more so than any other creature on the face of the earth. Honey bees are, in truth, just bugs.


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(Dr.Young RO" identifies any articles authored by him that were published in a recognized scientific journal.)

The recognized scientific pharmaceutical industry`s goal is to have everyone on many forms of pharmaceuticals.( Its good for the stock of the drug companies. If you don`t play their game you don`t get to write in their journals.


(alkaline and acid environment that can be optimized by eating certain foods)

Beekeepers know that the PH of honey helps prevent certain bee diseases from developing.
Oh, I forgot that Ph means nothing! That is what the experts said.

(Mirkin G. Acid/Alkaline Theory of Disease Is Nonsense)

Acid/Alkaline Theory is that we need more Alkaline minerals in our diet to off set the acids. Alkaline minerals are "bad things" like magnesium, calcium, potassium, sodium, and zinc, Dr Young recommends that you get them from certain live green foods mostly (more bad infomation) Think I`ll trust the drug companies they are great at keeping us healthy.

Sundance: do more research, www.westonaprice.org


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(Honey bees are not some sort of mystical creation. Well, ok maybe, but no more so than any other creature on the face of the earth. Honey bees are, in truth, just bugs.)

Check out this book "The Sacred Bee" by Hilda M Ransome (Yes OK Maybe)


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(When folks start talking about electric food, or riding the Hale-Bop)

Not Hale-Bop every movement and thought you make is electrical, untill you die. You are not familiar with the info. So what you don`t know you don`t believe, But you don`t have to ridicule. Its not good for your spirit. 
"Sundance" a hippie sort of a name.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>> It is that common belief and attitude that shows no respect or veneration to the Fascinating Honey bee.<<<

Thirty years of extracting bees from houses to keep them from being exterminated. I guess I have no respect for them.

<<< I am new to beekeeping and i`m looking for a >>>

It shows.......

[ June 15, 2006, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: iddee ]


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

"Phd Dr. Robert Young"

LOL - you are kidding or trolling with this right?

Keith


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

>>(specific purpose, Essential Oils would not be good for the bees health.)>>

Jersey Bees, you deleted my point. Let me re-state them. I specifically said, "I personally think that bombarding the bees with un-necessary and/or without a specific purpose, Essential Oils would not be good for the bees health. You can also destroy their resistance and/or acceptance to EO's just as well by giving it to them when they don't need it or for no rhyme or reason". Just because EO's are natural and come from a health food store, doesn't mean they cannot harm. In fact, they can be just as powerful as any chemical or can be just as toxic. Thyme is not something I would put in my bees food and I don't see the value of adding clove oil. If anything, you are probably irritating your bees with those. The only EO I can think of that might be good for mites is Eucalyptus, but in small amounts. In Italy, and recently here in the USA, they use a product called Apilife Var, which contains Eucalyptus. I think Brushy Mountain sells it. You should read how it is applied, there are some precautions in its use. It is all organic and natural. It contains, Thymol natural crystals, Eucalyptus, Camphor natural crystals, Menthol natural crystals. Here's a website with the information:

http://www.beekeeping.com/chemical-laif/index.htm 


<<The oils purpose is for mite control and I have been finding more dead mites under the varroa screen.I`m open to other non-toxic mite control.>>

You are preaching to the choir. Most people on this board are looking for and have experimented with using other non-toxic mite control measures. Most people do use Apilife Var. Last year I used the powdered sugar method. How natural can you get?

[ June 15, 2006, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Cyndi ]


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## 3pepper (May 10, 2006)

wow . odd thread .
i agree that prosessed refined sugar is a dead food . i would like something else to feed my bees . what is a good choice ??? 
as for the tree hugger comment ... i am one
also , i think there is a bit of tree hugger in all of you people on this forum and in beekeeping in general world wide . if not , you would be eating white sugar on your bicuits every morning and telling us beeks how dumb we are for watching our bees , keeping up with bloom times , wanting more rain , and [edit by mod] about neighbors spraying pesticides . yup , sound like a bunch of closet hippies to me , lol . and thats part of the reson i'm here . 
stephen

[ July 27, 2006, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Barry ]


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

ugh... where is Jim Fisher when you need him?

"I have been finding more dead mites under the varroa screen"

Makes sense, as brood rearing is getting strong, so is the varroa population. By summer's end, you will be finding lots of varroa.

First tip on keeping bees for bee begginers:
Bees are not mammals. Anything you may or may not know about mammals does not apply.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

"as for the tree hugger comment ... i am one" Me too Stephen. I have a BS in Biology and a BS in Environmental Science (that and a buck will get you a cup of coffee). 

Not sure about the live food/dead food "debate". Sugar, when hydrated to syrup, is as alive I think, or maybe in critical condition?

Jersy.... "So what you don`t know you don`t believe, But you don`t have to ridicule. Its not good for your spirit."

As a hippie, environmental wacko, left winger, I tend to question lots of stuff. And I am a smart arse by nature. For that I apologize, I did not mean to offend you personally. Young is another thing though, a profiteer at best with mail order credentials.

[ June 15, 2006, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Sundance ]


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

With 2 BS's........ yes.......... come on........ I am ........... full of.........


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

"Anything you may or may not know about mammals does not apply"

Not entirely accurate, but the spirit of what you say is. On a basic level all eukaryotes share a multitude of similarities, some would argue that they (the organisms) are more alike than they are dissimilar. But when talking about nutrition and such the devil is in the details, and that where species are different, in the details.

Keith


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

" All live foods contains electrial activity"

Are you looking at kirlian photos? Methinks you are grossly simplifying the electrical nature of cells.

Keith "ATP" Benson


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Well, I personally think that bombarding the bees with un-necessary and/or without a specific purpose, Essential Oils would not be good for the bees health.

I won't argue that.

>You can also destroy their resistance and/or acceptance to EO's just as well by giving it to them when they don't need it or for no rhyme or reason.

I won't aruge that.

>Naturally, the bees go forage for what they need. You would be so surprised at the contents and medicinal benefits of certain local native trees - ask any Native American, they will tell you.

I won't aruge that.

>Seriously, the bees do seem to know what they need and we should not interfere too much. 

I won't argue that.

>Everyone who knows anything about the use of Essential Oils, knows that they have purpose and are by NO means innocuous or simply charming - even for the bees. They should be used with care and understanding.

Or not at all.

>All live foods contains electrial activity (everything alive has an electrical field as part of its being)Read PHD DR. Robert Young`s "Ph Miracle" book. All live foods contain enzymes,correct ph, vitamins, minerals,other identified and unidentified conutrients not just empty cals which mess up the immune system.

But bees are collecting emtpy cals, aka sucrose, and adding enzymes.

>I am new to beekeeping and i`m looking for a alternative to the dead food that sugar is. That is why I choose Agave. 

But Agave will have solids that are not good for bees. They may survive now (with a little dysentary) but dysentary in the winter can kill them.

>The oils purpose is for mite control and I have been finding more dead mites under the varroa screen.I`m open to other non-toxic mite control. 

But essential oils are not at all necessary. If you want natural mite control get natrual sized comb and survivor bees. Bees don't need to be coddled. They need to be allowed to do what they do.

>"Young claims that health depends primarily on proper balance between an alkaline and acid environment that can be optimized by eating certain foods."

Sounds like "Vermont Folk Medicine" by Dr. Jarvis. Certainly not a new idea.

>Honey bees are not some sort of mystical creation. Well, ok maybe, but no more so than any other creature on the face of the earth. Honey bees are, in truth, just bugs. 

From my POV (Native American) there is no such thing as "just" anything. Every natural thing is sacred/mystical (wakan).

>"Sundance" a hippie sort of a name. 

Hmmmm. Interesting interpretation. Sundance means something altogether different to me.

> How natural can you get?

"Nothing" seems pretty natural to me.

>i agree that prosessed refined sugar is a dead food . i would like something else to feed my bees . what is a good choice ??? 

Hmmm. Honey seems like an obvious choice...

>Anything you may or may not know about mammals does not apply

It MAY not apply and often doesn't. But sometimes it does. They both still have to breath and they both have a basic kreb cycle metabolism that runs on sugar and gives off C02 and H20... But their digestive systems differ a lot...


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

> Sundance means something altogether different to me.

It could mean a pollen trap.









>>"Anything you may or may not know about mammals does not apply"

>Not entirely accurate..

Then can we say that the similarities stop at the cellular level and anything that relates to processes beyond that level simply do not apply?

Well, they do have a brain and mouth parts, but my point is clear. Think like a bug, er a bee.

[ June 15, 2006, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: MichaelW ]


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Sundance (my company name) was derived, with great respect, from the Lakota ritual involving a cottonwood tree.


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## Black Creek (May 19, 2006)

wow! what a wild thread i've found. i guess some hippies might find some relation to the name sundance in that the true hippie(for lack of a better term) prolly feels a great deal of admiration and respect for the earth in many ways similar to our native americans. but to say sundance sounds like a hippie type name does show that not everyone trully understand native culture. i'm not native myself, so please forgive my ignorance, but i believe we are nearing the time of the sun dance as a matter of coincidence. i think it's good to see that there is a large population of new and seasoned bee keepers that are so emotional over doing things in a way that is more along the lines of what the bees actually want. kudos to jersey for being so enthusiastic in wanting to find a better way. but i'm just a newbee, and when i read the messages here from folks that have been doing this a long time, and are serious in their dedication to their colonies, i feel i should heed their advice. at least until i feel i have absorbed enough of their knowledge and gained enough experience that i can feel confident in experimenting with alternative methods. for me and my one lonely hive. i wouldnt dare risk them. 

i luv my bees. i've named each and every one haha


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

"Naturally, the bees go forage for what they need."

And yet, they like every other animal may make poor choices. For instance. They will often raid soft drink residues in a dearth. IOW, don't rely to heavily on the notion that animals always do what is good for them. 

Appetites only function in the system in which they were evolved.

Keith


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

MikeW - absolutely.

newbeematt - why did you name them all "haha"?

Keith


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## Black Creek (May 19, 2006)

lol ok... message boards come across kinda dry sometimes... i was being serious there for a minute then as lightened up a bit i didnt want that to also beeee taken as serious... i guess i should stick to smiley faces haha hehe hardy har har har


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## Sharkey (May 27, 2004)

I chose the emoticon I did because it looks like the closest to an ET of any of them, at least it does to me. And I think this is one of the wierdest threads I have seen here yet. Not the most hostile, by any means, those are usually in the Tailgaiter, but, hey, far out man !! Groovy !!


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>Check out this book "The Sacred Bee" by Hilda M Ransome

hehehe.....

Check out "Bees and Beekeeping Science, Practice and World Resources" by Eva Crane

Check out "The Biology of the Honey Bee" by Mark Winston

Check out "The Hive and the Honey Bee" by Dadant

Check out "ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture" by Root

Check out "The Behaviour and Social Life of Honeybees" by Ronald Ribbands

Check out "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases by Morse/Flottum

Check out "Form and Function in the Honey Bee" by Leslie Goodman

Check out "The Anatomy of the Honey Bee" by R.E. Snodgrass

Check out .....


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

"Check out....," The Sixth Grandfather: Black Elk's Teachings Given to John G. Neihardt
edited by Raymond J. Demallie

To get a context of the Sundance and other Lakota culture. 

I've never read Neihardt's literary interpretation that is commonly read by "hippies", but will get around to it one day.
This book is straight from his orginal interviews of Black Elk. Fascinating and informative.

Hope to visit that part of the country one day.


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

I've always thought Sundance would be a good name for a horse....


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Cyndi...... you comment sparked the memory of a movie called "A Man Called Horse"


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

And now back to feeding sugar to 40,000 bees named HAHA.

Since my line is cherokee, I don't know much about the lakota, so let's talk sugar.

How about someone putting a cactus and a quart of sugarwater in their bee yard and tell us which one is taken first.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

I have visions of a few thousand bees trying to lug a cactus back to the hive. . . . 

Keith


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

<<I have visions of a few thousand bees trying to lug a cactus back to the hive. . . .>>

and then what??? I'm scared to take this vision any further,


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(If you want natural mite control get natrual sized comb and survivor bees.)


What is natural sized comb and survivor bees?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

> What is natural sized comb and survivor bees?

ahh, grasshopper, you have much reading to do









http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm 
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/implications/

Dave

[ June 15, 2006, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Yes, JerseyBees, get down off your horse, put your six shooters away, and read some real beekeeping books.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Hey the sun came up this morning! This is the first time the sun has come up at the proper time, in the proper place, in nearly a month! I almost can't remember the last time this happened. This could just be a sunny day from beginning to end! Sure, the sun has appeared a few times for a few hours at different places in the sky in recent weeks, but that's not the same as the sun rising above the horizon, big, orange, and warm... My bees are going to love this day. I think I'll go to work late so I have a good excuse to leave early. Sure... that'll work.

I think I'll go do a Sun Dance


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

George-

If you stay up all day and night the sun still only comes up and goes down once a day. 
Try to get more sleep. 
This usually relocates the sun in the right position for me. 
[Must be that new contract workin' you too hard]

Do you think that Maine will support cactus? 
Maybe you can do the cactus/sugar water test for us?

Everyone else-
Don't try to electrically charge your sugar water. 
It seems that I have a lot more dead bees - even a lot more than usual. Maybe I should change from three-phase to single-phase? I'd try 12 volts DC but I don't know if the jumper cables will reach. 

Do you think floride would help my bee's teeth? 
If they eat better, maybe they'll resist mites better. All this sugar can't be too good on their teeth. 

Gotta find little insect tooth brushes....

I think my bees are sick, they're throwin' up everywhere. A bit of honey here, a bit of honey there, just throw-up everywhere. 

I gotta go, my rubber room is clean again. 

JEFF


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(Do you think floride would help my bee's teeth?)

Toxic stuff!

(Gotta find little insect tooth brushes....)

Thank you, very funny.


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(Are you looking at kirlian photos? Methinks you are grossly simplifying the electrical nature of cells.)

But its new emerging nutrition info! You read it first here. I suggest if you who are interested
you can further research.


http://www.fi.edu/brain/fats.htm#brainblockers 

The benificial electrical activity of fats are damaged . That is the kind of fat found in hydrogenated fat like crisco and margarine. The fat will be taken up by the man or beastly bee but it will adversely affect them.

[ June 17, 2006, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: JerseyBees ]


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(Check out "Bees and Beekeeping Science, Practice and World Resources" by Eva Crane

Check out "The Biology of the Honey Bee" by Mark Winston

Check out "The Hive and the Honey Bee" by Dadant

Check out "ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture" by Root

Check out "The Behaviour and Social Life of Honeybees" by Ronald Ribbands

Check out "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases by Morse/Flottum

Check out "Form and Function in the Honey Bee" by Leslie Goodman

Check out "The Anatomy of the Honey Bee" by R.)

Thank you, I got a lot to read.


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## David Stewart (Jan 22, 2005)

Cool thread gang.....I've truely enjoyed it. Some very whacky ideas interspersed with some genuine spiritual beliefs. Kinda of reminds me of some of the "experimental round table discussions" I participated in way back in the 70's with the pipe in the center of the table and passing the hose around. Guess I can claim part title to hippy because of it.... of course, looking at some of my old friends, I'm kinda glad I walked away when I did. I also must claim partial tree hugger since I have been known to hug a tree and give it a good shake to spook the squirell hiding on the other side into running back around to my side so I can draw a good bead on him









Enjoy the uniqueness of us all,
David


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

>> (Do you think fluoride would help my bee's teeth?)

> Toxic stuff!

Harmless to humans, but yes, said to be toxic to
bees at even low percentages. The good news is
that even the cheapest water filters will remove
both the chlorine and fluoride from tap water with
ease.

I think use of the term "dead food" evinces a
certain emotional attitude about a simple and
easy-to-measure objective situation. To each
his own, but if my food is "alive", I'd rather
not eat it. I'd rather not meet the meat.









Bees gather nectar, and this is pure water with
a few simple sugars mixed in (sucrose, glucose,
and fructose).

The bees really don't care what combination of
these simple sugars they are fed, and they
delight in higher sugar concentrations than are
found in nature, so as long as one keeps things
simple and pure, one has no problem.

From a strict dietary standpoint, bees that are
put on an exclusive diet that is contaminated
with things like _"peppermint, thyme, cloves,
a few drops of fresh lemon juice and a few drops
of liquid trace minerals"_ are simply not
going to live as long as bees that are fed pure
feed (water and simple sugars). 

These tests have been done over and over.
The "brood food", (nectar or diluted honey
mixed with pollen) is another story, but it is
fed to brood and newly-emerged bees, rather than
adult bees.

Adult bee digestive systems cannot process the
oils, the lemon juice is a significant acid that
may do physical damage to their digestive systems,
and the trace minerals will only be passed
through their digestive systems if in sufficiently
low levels, but can become toxic if mixed in
at higher levels.

So go ahead and feed the agave, if it makes you
feel better, but leave the rest of the crap out,
as none of it will help, and most of it can hurt.

But agave is merely a different form of the same
simple sugars everyone else feeds, and you are
likely paying an arm and a leg for the stuff.

[ June 17, 2006, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Jim Fischer ]


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(Bees gather nectar, and this is pure water with
a few simple sugars mixed in (sucrose, glucose,
and fructose).

Their`s alot more co-nutrients then that! Yes I agree in very small amounts but they have a purpose. And that is why they are their. 
Most people`s knowledge of nutrition is known in very small amounts also.

Harmless to humans! Flouride! Not true it`s also found to be toxic. Educated communities have beed banning its use from the water supply.

(Adult bee digestive systems cannot process the
oils,)

The question here is how much. Even pollen contains natural oils.


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(Enjoy the uniqueness of us all,
David )

Good post David, I was their also. I would like to keep that energy of spiritual beliefs in my relation to the bees and nature. Since this is GOD manifesting itself in front of our eyes. But we`re usually to busy to notice such things.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Our water here in Anchorage has both chlorine and fluoride in it. It is the water I use to mix my SUGAR syrup and the water I set out for bees during the summer. My bees seem to do quite well on it.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Jersy Bees,

All substances have an inherent toxicity to them, even pure water. Fluride, in appropriate quantities, dramatically reduces dental caries and stregthens bones with minimal risk, save in those areas that already have naturally fluride ride waters. The best source of nutrients for bees is pollen and sucrose. There is an excellent pdf on bee nutrition put out by the Australian govmt. I think that its called something like "fat bee/skinny bee" You would probably like it. It give a nice run down of various pollen qualities too.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Don't know if this is the article Aspera was referring to, but it is interesting reading:

http://www.agric.nsw.gov.au/reader/3271


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(Don't know if this is the article Aspera was referring to, but it is interesting reading

Thanx for the info Dick.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

nope, that wasn't it. i just came from a visit to the beemaster's international forum site. the article was posted by finsky (a.k.a. finman here). it's 150 pages so takes a few minutes to download on dial-up. this is it:

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/05-054.pdf


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

since you now keep bees and run a natural foods store here's another site you might find of interest jerseybees:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076e00.htm 

the book runs about 400 pages that can be downloaded (or just bookmark the url and visit the site whenever)


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(the beemaster's international forum site.)

That site has banded me . Not for being rude or vulgar. For being passionate. The administrator was saying disgusting rude vulgar crap and with a juvenile sense of humour, which was funny only in his warped mind. He said stuff like vomit putrid honey, put gasoline on my hives and why don`t you just do it like everyone else (he`s from NJ, it figgers) So I told him what I thought of what he said. In a direct, firm not hysterical manner.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

" The benificial electrical activity of fats are damaged . That is the kind of fat found in hydrogenated fat like crisco and margarine. The fat will be taken up by the man or beastly bee but it will adversely affect them."

If you get that from the link you posted I think you need to re-read it.

Keith


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

(http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/05-054.pdf)

just get hung up with that one, I have cable so it should be fast. 

(http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076e00.htm)

that pops up fast, mango chuntey bees? sounds like something a gourmet bear would like.


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

The Body is Electric boogie-woogie

Nutritionally important fats have a structure 
known as a cis chemical configuration, which means that hydrogen atoms on the carbons are all on the same side of the molecule. Because of the slight electrical charge all of the hydrogen atoms repel each other and put bends in the carbon chain, these bends are the essential shape of the molecule that make it possible for all the special biological functions of fats to take place.

Modern processing totally destroys this cis formation converting fats into what is known as a trans formation. This basically describes where all the hydrogen atoms lie on opposite sides of the fat molecule causing it to lose its bends and straighten out. Such fat molecules lose their ability to perform important biological functions. They are essentially unusable by the human body and cause nothing but fat storage and build-up, while being potentially very harmful. Nearly every food manufactured and processed and changed, that is not grown or organically produced, free from manipulation, contain these lethal and damaged fats and trans-fatty acids.

(slight electrical charge) Destroyed in the processing, Needed by the brain and other parts of the body`s cells.)

Studies show that the trans fatty acids we eat do get incorporated into brain cell membranes, including the myelin sheath that insulates neurons. They replace the natural DHA in the membrane, which affects the electrical activity of the neuron.
Trans fatty acid molecules disrupt communication, setting the stage for cellular degeneration and diminished mental performance.15

(The trans fat has no charge since the molecule bonds are broken. Your "electrical" brain can`t use it and it damages healthy tissue. How could you eat this or feed it the bees?)



Hard Fats and Saturated Fatty Acids
These are straight chains with no kinks, no double bonds, and are slow to react with other chemicals Hard Fats and Saturated Fatty Acids
These are straight chains with no kinks, no double bonds, and are slow to react with other chemicals and carry no electrical charges.

Saturated fatty acids decrease oxygen supply to our tissues by making red blood cells stick together, less mobile and less able to deliver oxygen to our cells. Hard fats are things like butter, lard, and the solid fats on meats. Saturated fats, are as stated, saturated with hydrogen atoms and so are basically useless for bodily and brain function. These should generally be avoided where possible.

http://www.bodyactive-online.co.uk/nutrition/nutrients/fats/fatsforms.asp 

(and carry no electrical charges.)We need these electrical charges they are part of the full sprectrum of nutrition)

Burning of fats produces charring products that are carcinogenic. If one is quick frying and burning occurs, temperatures up to 1000 degrees F could have been reached. Even if one does not burn the oil or fat, overcooking (esp. when one reuses oils) breaks down the polyunsaturated molecule and free radicals can form. These are fragments that have combined with any available oxygen to produce toxic peroxides. They are toxic because that act as strong oxidizing agents that damage and destroy cells.


When I first discovered that Nickel was used in practically all processes of hydrogenation, I wondered. Then upon further study, I found that only finely pulverised nickel was used  Then I found it clearly admitted in a book entitled  Industrial Chemistry that all of the nickel can never be filtered out no matter how hard they try. A quote from this book:  The commercial procedure is to suspend finely divided nickel in the oil heated to 250 degrees to 300 degrees F. (121 to 149 degrees C) and blow in Hydrogen gas The nickel is used in amounts of 0.5 to 1 percent of the weight of the oil.

It is bad enough that with every mouthful of hydrogenated fat you also get a quantity of nickel, but I checked deeper and to my utter amazement I found that the products used by the industry at large was a substance called raney nickel. Very few people know, but the Mercks Index reveals that  Raney Nickel catalyst is prepared by fusing 50 parts of nickel with 50 parts of Aluminium, for use as catalyst for the hydrogenation of organic compounds with the gaseous hydrogen. Usually from 1 to 10% of the substance to be reduced is employed.

In Industrial Chemistry They state that 0.5 to 1 % catalyst is used. Mercks Index reads that from 1-10 % is used.

I expect Keith to stop eating these dead and denatured Fats. Thom

[ June 18, 2006, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: JerseyBees ]


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## Ray Michaud (Dec 7, 2005)

JerseyBees says When Honey bees visit a flower it picks up on the strength of it`s fullness of nectar by the strength of it`s electrical field first.It is a part of the full sprectrum of nutrition that we all need. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have hives under a 345,000 volt electrical line, I wonder if I produce a special honey with all that electrical field around my hives.I should charge more for my honey.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

If something is not alive to begin with, how can it be dead? 


Keith

[ July 20, 2006, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0688069711/immaculate-books/104-5739619-9226318 

Very funny,Ray, further reading for you and Keith, ( who won`t be eating anymore of those evil "dead" fats.)Because now his knowledge has grown. Also your welcome for the info. Glad to share it with you.

(If something is not alive to beging with, how can it be dead? )

EXPAND your belief system on what life and energy is, Keith, Don`t be so close minded.

If you are REALLY into Biological Beekeeping. Research Biodynamic methods by Rudolf Steiner.

[ June 18, 2006, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: JerseyBees ]


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Ahhh I was wondering how long it would take you to bring up Mr. Steiner. Thanks for the chuckle.

As to my belief systems and whether or not my mind is open - if something is not alive, it is not alive, no matter how hard one believes, or wishes, it to be so.

Keith "believing in nonsense does not make one open minded" Benson


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## JerseyBees (May 23, 2006)

Keith,
Even if you don`t agree with me, you requested infomation, I gave it to you. At least you could remember what Mom and Dad taught you. A little thank you would be the gentleman`s way. 
All that great nutritional info about the denatured fats and not a comment about it? Even if you don`t like that "life force" talk. The info about the health damaging properties of Transfats is well known in the scientific and governmental circles. No comment about that? no Thank you`s?
This makes me think your more interested in ridiculing and not the exchanging of ideas.
Your cynicism comes thru loud and clear!
Also that makes me thing that you are closeminded and not very considerate. Usually they go hand in hand. Amen, Thom

[ June 18, 2006, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: JerseyBees ]


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Thanks Dick, Finman. That 150 pg mammoth is what I was talking about. Basically, what I got out of it was that fresh pollen and liquid sucrose provide a healthful diet for bees and will contribute to increased longevity and better overwintering. JerseyBee, while I don't like the way that some cane sugar producers treat their workers/land, I do have to agree that it is the best food for bees. Its the fresh pollen, not nectar that provides bees with the micronutrients they need. Of course, small amounts of yeast extract (B vitamins), powdered egg (fat+high quality protein, no protease inhibitors) and soybeal flour (helps balence amino acid content) can help balence the diet.

[ June 18, 2006, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Aspera ]


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Gentlemen.......... Attacking theory and methodology are one thing but I haven't met a "closeminded" person on this forum yet. Even Ol' BubbaBob and myself.  (miss that southern gent)


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## sqjerry (May 20, 2006)

agave, fresh lemon I wonder if jose cuervo knows about this it has to make good mead ready made margaritas jj


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Jim Fisher., and/or others.

What do you think about mixing Vinegar in sucrose water to increase acidity and reduce spoilage/molding? Do you think it hurts the bees over the long haul? I put about 1/2 cup per 4 gallons. 

In another conversation, we decided honey was much more acidic than water, so increaseing sugar water acidity is a good way to prevent spoilage. 

I'd say that agavae juice would make alcohol real quick without the lemon juice. Drunk bees work less.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

What is the pH of nectar - which, in the spring, is really what you are trying to replicate.

Keith

[ June 19, 2006, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

>What is the pH of nectar 

Well, thats a good question. I coudln't quickly find any numbers for nectar, but plenty for honey. PH in a search string doesen't help when every doctor has PH with their names.

I would think that when bees water down the acidic honey to raise brood, that it too would be acidic.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Could be - You are right about the search thing. Google basically chokes on all of the PhDs.

Of course someone with a pH meter could do that . . . wait, I have a pH meter . . . Give me a couple of days and I can tell you what the pH of my honey is, and what it is at various dilutions.

The flow is over here so I do not have access to un-ripened nectar.

OK - next question: To what strength do bees dilute honey prior to feeding it out?

Also - what is the pH of "honey" made from syrup? Is it necessarily different than honey made from nectar? If not, and if nectar is not significantly different from syrup, the whole point may be moot.

If anyone with data would like to chime in . . . Beuhler . . . Beuhler . . . .Beuhler. . . 

Keith

[ June 19, 2006, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

>To what strength do bees dilute honey prior to feeding it out


I couldn't find the answer to that either, but can you simply test the PH of nectar you found in brood cells, instead of all this speculating?
Then feed a colony straight sugar water and test the brood food PH and stored honey PH. Sounds like an experiment!!

I did find quotes of ratio's of nectar to be anywhere from 15% to 40% sugar, which is pretty broad.

[ June 19, 2006, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: MichaelW ]


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

It is a matter of volume - the teeny bit of nectar in a brood cell would provide and insufficient volume for the probes that I have (and I am not going to suck a couple of micoliters out of several hundred cells for this) - and someone, somewhere must have these numbers.

Keith


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.

Sugar is very good for bees. Nothing wrong with that. Cheap sugar is better than expencive. I take honey away in autumn and give sugar for winter. Runs well.

.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Fluoride is naturally occurring in all ground water. The amount varies in different parts of the country. If you want to not drink fluoride it will not only require not adding it, it will require removing it. The way it ended up being added to water was based on the observations of an Army dentist who started tracking where people were from, how hard their teeth were, and what was in the water where they grew up. In places where fluoride was naturally higher people had harder teeth and less cavities.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

In my beekeeping corner of country there are so much fluodide that add into tooth paste is to much. 

Keyword "too much fluoride"

http://www.dentalmedsoft.com/SampleCases/images/Photos/JG017.jpg


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## Kris^ (Jan 10, 2006)

We must preserve our precious bodily fluids.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Communist infiltration of our drinking water.

Communist infiltration of our honey bee digestive system.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Gentlemen, you can't argue in here! This is the war room!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

when people start throwing phd's around like they are gold, you know there is a problem with their credentials.


from: http://www.expertclick.com/daybook/default.cfm?Action=Event&DaybookID=1696&GroupID=0



> he holds doctorates in naturopathy, microbiology, bio-chemistry and nutrition, and is an Honorary member of the United Nations International Health Council. His work has centered on the question, what is the true cause of disease? His revolutionary conclusion, that the current germ theory is incorrect, that the true cause comes from the effects of the alkaline/acid balance (pH balance) in the blood, has become more widely recognized within the past decade, as his research into diabetes, cancer, leukemia, and AIDS has gained national recognition. In the last month, he was honored by Morehouse College for his work, consulted with Puerto Ricos Ministry of Health on diabetes, and appeared on The Early Show.


note the following: http://www.uwyo.edu/bio1000skh/lecture04.htm
1. blood ph deviation is generally fatal:


> An example is the buffer system in your blood. Several buffers act to keep your blood in a narrow pH range close to pH 7.4. Bicarbonate ions are one of these buffers. If you become frightened and start to hyperventilate, bicarbonate ions are lost from your blood in the form of CO2 (carbon dioxide). Your blood pH begins to rise and at pH 7.6, dizziness, numbness in extremities, and fainting occur. Blood pH of 7.8 is fatal as is blood pH of 7.0.


so, we are to believe that we must eat certain foods to maintain a certain blood ph....yet the blood ph doesn't change no matter what we eat.

2. do a google search on the "United Nations International Health Council" (with or without the apostophy)...note that there isn't anyone else on the net that claims any connection to such a council...if it exists, i would bet that it has nothing to do with the united nations. actually, i was quite suprised he wasn't using "who's who" in his resume.

this guy is a predator who relies on gullible non critical thinkers to buy into his pyramid scheme. note that he also pleaded guilty to practicing medicine without a license.

deknow


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## CWBees (May 11, 2006)

This is a great thread. I have to say I think floride has helped many keep their teeth. Many educated people are now denying their children vacinations for diseases that killed thousands because they somehow think their is something toxic in them. Sounds like the same logic here for floride. Whatever they say I really don't think the drug industry is out to get you.


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## Craig W. (Feb 26, 2006)

Curtis, I agree.


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## SantaCruzBee (Apr 23, 2004)

By the way, the United Nations' health organization is the WHO, the World Health Organization, not some "United Nation's International Health Council."

I'm not going to claim that MD's are perfect and I'm definitely not going to claim that for the drug companies either, but the biggest problem of the drug companies is when they occasionally forget patient safety while concentrating on their bottom lines. I'm not against the profit principle, just against letting it get in the way of good medical care and decision making or good drug manufacture.

Vaccines have been a great boon to the world. There are occasional problems with vaccines, nothing in life is without problems, but I'm an MD and I go for every vaccine that is indicated for me. Right now I need to get around to getting the vaccine for shingles (Herpes zoster/varicella). Like most 51 year olds, I had chicken pox as a kid and would like to avoid the experience of shingles is possible.

I live and work in a county where the educated white population has a large number of people not vaccinating their kids. Whereas the hispanic population, majority farmworkers, religiously vaccinate their children. I'm glad to work in the hospital in "South County," Watsonville,Ca., where the population is 70-80% hispanic. I find it very frustrating that some parents don't understand the benefit vaccination gives their children.

We only just got fluoridation last year because the state forced it. The poor children in this area have had terrible teeth problems in the absence of fluoridation, whereas middle class children with access to dentistry were much better off. I hope that all children here will start to have decent teeth now that we have fluoridation.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

"Many educated people are now denying their children vacinations for diseases that killed thousands because they somehow think their is something toxic in them"

That something would be mercury. Exposure is an increasing problem due to a variety of sources. For our son we basically weigh vaccinations on a risk basis. We skipped the flu vaccine for him one year and got a mecury free vaccine for him the next. My wife got the regular/mecury vaccine this past year while she was pregnant because the doctor advised us the risk of getting flu was greater at that stage of pregnancy. A doctor also advised us the year that we skipped the flu vaccine for our son. He said, if he does get the flu, it shouldn't be that big a deal. He was right. He got the flu and it wasn't a big deal. It was no different than many of the other bugs hes had. This winter, we will all get the flu shot since there will be an infant in the house. Mecury is a problem with vaccines, but risks are present with or without takeing them. The logical thing to do is decide which risk is greater.

"I hope that all children here will start to have decent teeth now that we have fluoridation. "

see! Communism!

[ July 21, 2006, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: MichaelW ]


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## hmeadq (Apr 11, 2005)

I have been doing a ton of research on vaccines, in prepreation of starting to try to have children in the next year. 

Mecury is a huge issue. As is stimulating to strong of an immune responce (MMR). But there are alternatives. Use non-mercury vacines. Stretch out the vaccination schedule, so you have a fully vaccinated kid by age 5, but you go light on vaccines when major nuerological development is occuring in the first couple years. Then you avoid multiple vaccines (MMR) in favor of three seprate vaccines. You try to give only one or two per visit. Even though each are tested alone, they are not tested in groups. Think of phen-phen. We are doing this to our kids. This may not be the only reason that autism rates have skyrocked to 1 in 166 kids (THINK OF THAT NUMBER!) I'm not taking the chance. My kids will get vaccinated, but on a modified schedule.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

good work hmeadq, I'll keep that in mind.


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## LCbee (Jul 21, 2006)

Is there a way to improve the sugar to bring the pH closer to that of nectar?

L

<<If there is a problem with sugar it's probably that the pH is very different from that of nectar and honey. The problem with giving sugar syrup to bees, is NOT that it's refined.>>


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

adding vingear to sugar water will lower the PH. I usually mix up (1 gallon + 2 cups water) + (20 pounds sugar) + (1/3 cup vinegar). Boil water, then remove from heat, then add ingredients.

That mixture dosen't mold/ferment easily.


edited; oops thanks!

[ July 27, 2006, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: MichaelW ]


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

"adding vingear to sugar water will raise the PH"

Prolly a typo - but acids have a lower pH. So adding vinegar, i.e. acetic acid, will lower the pH.

There are several ways to define an acid, for those that wish to relive chem class:
http://www.visionlearning.com/library/module_viewer.php?mid=58
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid


Keith


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

According to what Leslie Bailey writes in 'Honey Bee Pathology' adding vinegar or cream of tartar to sugar shortens the life of bees. That might not be noticed by beekeepers who do that if there are a lot of bees and the hive is in it's build-up phase. 

'Honey Bee Pathology' is an older book, mine was copyrighted in 1981, but I'd bet the information is still good. 

Bailey also mentions beekeepers many years ago, believed pollen was not needed by bees. Some removed pollen frames and fed beef extract to their bees which of course was poisonous for the bees.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.

Sugar is basis of life. Honey is 75% sugar. All organic material has processed from photosyntetic sugar. 

http://www.irish-sugar.ie/noframes/nf-pages/nf-what/nf-what.htm

I have wintered my bees 45 years with mere sugar and they are still going well. 

I have 30 kg overweight. Extra sugar is not good for me but it makes not sugar poison. Even honey makes me more fatty because it is sugar.

.


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## Spring Island Bees (May 22, 2006)

JerseyBees....I hope you are feeding your bees RAW agave and not regular agave. The later would be considered a dead food since it is heated above 115 degrees. Feeding your bees is going to cost quite a lot this way. Why not just leave a super of honey on which is all natural? 

Jennifer


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Is it wise to make tequila from agave. You would get better price than from honey and customers will be more satified.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

"dead food"

This is agave juice no? One has to crush the agave to get it. The agave is therefore dead whether it is heated or not.

Keith


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## Kris^ (Jan 10, 2006)

> That something would be mercury. Exposure is an increasing problem due to a variety of sources. 

There is a controversy brewing here locally. A day care center was found to be built on top of an old thermometer factory site. Yep, the site is full of mercury. The building site was mistakenly approved for construction of a day care because of paperwork being shuffled in the wrong direction. As a result, the children have mercury levels 8 times higher than normal and there is a heightened incidence of autism among children at the day care.


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