# How Oxalic Acid Vaporization may kill mites



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Klaus Wallner in 2003 hypothesized that Oxalic (and any organic acid) kills mites due to the pH alteration in the hive, which interferes with chitin synthesis. Honeybees tolerate much the organic acids better than the mites, because oxalic is present in nectar sources at concentrations approaching therapeutic levels (Rademacher, 2005)

Chitin is a methylated chain. (Nitrogen compounds are attached to one node of the carbon ring) 


The small organic acids interfere with the Oxygen-- that links the two ring structures in chitin.

Compare to Sucrose. Here small organic acids are used to hydrolyze the ring structure by binding H+ ions with the O-- bridge.

Chitin is synthesized from the glucose ring of sugar.



The ascorbic acid that Michael Bush advocates dumping into syrup functions the exact same way. It acidifies the syrup, changing the ambient pH for the mites, the honeybees are buffered from its effect. Unfortunately for the folk medicine inadvertently promoted by Bush, syrup feeding is the least effective way of introducing organic acid miticides into hives, dribbling directly or vaporizing are more effective. 


Wallner, Klaus. 2003. Control of the mite Varroa destructor in honey bee colonies. Pesticide Outlook: 80-84.

Eva RADEMACHER*, Marika HARZ. 2005. Oxalic acid for the control of varroosis in honey bee
colonies – a review


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

JW....

If OA interferes with chitin synthesis, it stands to reason that OAV could very well destroy the cuticle in the mites' feet causing them to fall off.....


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## BigGun (Oct 27, 2011)

I saw an electron microscope photo showing the hair burned off the mouth parts of a mite. Sounds like the deck is stacked against varroa with this stuff


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

BigGun said:


> I saw an electron microscope photo showing the hair burned off the mouth parts of a mite. Sounds like the deck is stacked against varroa with this stuff


BG........ can you post that photo?


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## BigGun (Oct 27, 2011)

http://www.geocities.ws/vaporizerklaus/Oxalic_Acid.html

Pic is at top right.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The quoted paper is behind a paywall, and I am not paying to see it. However, the abstract is available for free.



> *Physical damage to the chitin plate and position of Varroa destructor on hive bottoms after use of different varroacidal treatments.
> *
> 
> Significant differences in physical damage share to mites' chitin plate were observed after use of Apiwarol AS, formic acid, lactic acid, oxalic acid and Beevital Hive Clean preparation; respectively 1.5, 17.0, 12.0, 33.0 and 31.0% (P≤0.05). The high incidence of physical damage to the chitin plate while using oxalic acid and Beevital Hive Clean indicate the direct activity of bees in removal of mites.
> ...


The quote is only a portion of the free abstract. Click the link to read the rest of the abstract, or pay for access to the full document.


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## sweetas (Apr 16, 2012)

Slightly off track , but in a quiz be Long Lane Honey, oxalic acid is not an approved treatment for bees in the US.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sweetas said:


> Slightly off track , but in a quiz be Long Lane Honey, oxalic acid is not an approved treatment for bees in the US.


True, But I can do anything I want with my bees including applying raid if I so choose to. The only time an application becomes illegal is if it effects yours or anyone elses bees. I can kill them all day long if I own them. Found that out this past summer by the way. That happens to be why it is not illegal for a home owner to kill bees that have built a hive in their home. They own them they can do what they wish with them.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> True, But I can do anything I want with my bees including applying raid if I so choose to. The only time an application becomes illegal is if it effects yours or anyone elses bees. I can kill them all day long if I own them.


While it certainly is legal to kill bees with Raid, it is only legal to do so in a manner _*consistent with the product label*_. For instance, here is the label of a spray can of Raid _Bug Killer_:
http://www.raidkillsbugs.com/-/medi...aid-house-and-garden-bug-killer-formula-7.pdf

You can spray the Raid fluid in the air to kill bees if you choose. You can spray bees in a hive if you choose. However, it is _NOT LEGAL _to add the contents of the Raid can to sugar syrup and feed it to bees to kill them, for instance. For another example, it is illegal to spray Raid on water that the bees might be drinking from.

With ANY pesticide, the key to what is legal or not is this phrase from the label (and Federal FIFRA law):


> _It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling. _


.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> _It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling._
> With ANY pesticide, the key to what is legal or not is this phrase from the label (and Federal FIFRA law):


Know however that Oxalic Acid is no longer labeled as a pesticide by the EPA.........


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

snl said:


> Know however that Oxalic Acid is no longer labeled as a pesticide by the EPA.........


I don't *know* that. And I can certainly still find the EPA documents online that suggest otherwise. 

Can you provide a link to some kind of EPA document that says oxalic acid is not required to be considered as a regulated pesticide when used to kill pests? (in this sense, varroa mites are a "pest")


I am not knocking oxalic acid used to kill varroa. My opinion is that, after undergoing the required registration process, oxalic acid _should _be legal to use against varroa. But that process hasn't happened yet.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>OAV destroys the cuticle in the mite's feet very quickly and the mite's feet actually fall off. OAV also enters and blocks their breathing tubes thus suffocating them.

But bees' feet are made of the same material... and their tracheae are as well...


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >OAV destroys the cuticle in the mite's feet very quickly and the mite's feet actually fall off. OAV also enters and blocks their breathing tubes thus suffocating them.
> 
> But bees' feet are made of the same material... and their tracheae are as well...


Either what you have written is true and that is not how Varroa mites are killed or what you've written is false ........ either way, mites (but not bees,brood or queens ) are decimated by OAV.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I don't *know* that. And I can certainly still find the EPA documents online that suggest otherwise.
> 
> Can you provide a link to some kind of EPA document that says oxalic acid is not required to be considered as a regulated pesticide when used to kill pests? (in this sense, varroa mites are a "pest")


Graham, I can't provide a link but According to the EPA representatives who were present at the Md. State Beekeepers Mtg. OA is no longer listed as a pesticide and they (EPA) are actively pursuing its use as miticide and hope to have it approved for use in beehives later this year or early next. 

The co that originally applied to use it as a pesticide did not renew therefore it was removed as a pesticide. This is per Meredith F. Laws, Chief, Insecticide-Rodenticide Branch, Office of Pesticide Programs.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

SNL, so if OA treatments actually become legal, will this mean that the company or companies that make the stuff be bought out by larger cooperation's and the OA be sold at a much higher price?? I just wonder how it will be "controlled" if someone like me goes to the hardware store and buys a tub of it for $5. Not to mention all the different gadgets that will be available on the market!!!

I welcome the legalization of OA as a mite treatment!!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

BG,
I surely don't think so. Too many suppliers of OA in the market. I believe you'll still be able to buy it just as now. However, I do see the beekeeping suppliers stepping in with their "own" OA along with all the gadgets to apply it............


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The assumed use of a product probably assesses the need for label directions and cautions. Sugar for instance if used for other than a food source could become a deadly energy release component. Oxalic acid crystals are considered to be used as a bleach agent / cleaner so the precautions about what would happen when heated are not part of the packaging. My bet that approval for use in vaporizers for mite control on bees will mandate information on dosage and precautions. If it is packaged this way it will undoubtedly have a somewhat higher price to account for packaging, distribution, and liability issues. Enforcement agencies are already overloaded with legislation that they do not have the resources to police. My guess is that it will gradually gain acceptance in the US and only be prosecuted as a technicality if a person is in flagrant violation of a number of other definitely prohibited activities related to bees. Has anyone heard of anyone actually being prosecuted for its use in bee hives?

Some people go to lenght to suggest the law is waiting to pounce upon anyone using it so, and will draw and quarter the person and seize all his assets!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

snl said:


> Graham, I can't provide a link but According to the EPA representatives who were present at the Md. State Beekeepers Mtg. OA is no longer listed as a pesticide and they (EPA) are actively pursuing its use as miticide and hope to have it approved for use in beehives later this year or early next.
> 
> The co that originally applied to use it as a pesticide did not renew therefore it was removed as a pesticide. This is per Meredith F. Laws, Chief, Insecticide-Rodenticide Branch, Office of Pesticide Programs.


The verbal comments of a particular EPA employee have no bearing on the law/regulations applicable to a particular pesticide. If the EPA has made a formal ruling on oxalic acid, then that ruling would be published in the _Federal Register_ and be publicly available to all. That has _not _happened - I checked.

The public comments of an EPA official _may _be an indication of a direction that the EPA expects to move, but without a published ruling, the status of oxalic used as a pesticide to control varroa is still "_unregistered_".




> Under FIFRA Section 3, all new pesticides (with minor exceptions) used in the United States must be registered by the Administrator of EPA. Pesticide registration is very specific; it is not valid for all uses of a particular chemical. Each registration specifies the crops/sites on which it may be applied, and each use must be supported by research data. Ordinarily, the manufacturer (domestic or foreign) of the pesticide files an application for registration. The application process often requires the submission of extensive environmental, health, and safety data.
> 
> http://www.epa.gov/agriculture/lfra.html#Summary of the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act


That quote means that each pesticide approved/registered is approved and labeled for the target pest that the pesticide is intended to control. Unless you are working with a substance "generally regarded as safe" [GRAS], it is not permissible to just make up your own recipe for targeting a pest.

The registration of oxalic acid as a pesticide (a germicide, sometimes used to sanitize certain porcelain fixtures) was cancelled some years ago because the manufacturer chose to not pay the fees to renew the registration. But that cancelled registration does not mean that "anything goes" - when used to control varroa, oxalic acid still meets the legal definition of a _pesticide_ under FIFRA, and its _legal _use to control varroa needs EPA registration (or some kind of other formal published action - to add it to a GRAS list, perhaps).

You and I (and likely others, too - and possibly even Ms. Laws) may wish that oxalic acid used to control varroa was currently legal under EPA regulations. But wishes are just _wishes_.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The registration of oxalic acid as a pesticide (a germicide, sometimes used to sanitize certain porcelain fixtures) was cancelled some years ago because the manufacturer chose to not pay the fees to renew the registration. But that cancelled registration does not mean that "anything goes" - when used to control varroa, oxalic acid still meets the legal definition of a _pesticide_ under FIFRA, and its use to control varroa needs EPA registration (or some kind of other formal published action - to add it to a GRAS list, perhaps).


Graham, you're correct.......it is not approved for use in a beehive. BUT it is NO longer a pesticide as the registration of such has lapsed.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

snl said:


> BUT it is NO longer a pesticide as the registration of such has lapsed.


That is not how the system works. :no:

From the EPA:


> [HIGHLIGHT]A pesticide is any substance or mixture of substances intended for preventing, destroying, repelling, or mitigating any pest.[/HIGHLIGHT] Pests can be insects and insect-like organisms, mice and other vertebrate animals, unwanted plants (weeds), or fungi, bacteria and viruses that cause plant diseases. Though often misunderstood to refer only to insecticides, the term pesticide also applies to herbicides, fungicides, and various other substances used to control pests.
> 
> http://www.epa.gov/agriculture/tpes.html


Oxalic acid is no longer a _registered _pesticide, *true*. Legally, that means that it cannot be used to control ANY pest. That includes varroa.


In my opinion, FIFRA is *unreasonably *broad in its impact. But, it was crafted by a committee, and its is what it is. Change the law, or just ignore it. But FIFRA still applies, like it or not.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Either what you have written is true

Chitin is chitin whether on a mite or an insect.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> Chitin is chitin whether on a mite or an insect.


Maybe so, but OAV is not decimating the bees, so perhaps something else is at play .........


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Oxalic acid is no longer a _registered _pesticide, *true*.


That's all I was pointing out. Not that it can be used legally here in the US as a varroa control.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> That's all I was pointing out. 

:thumbsup: Cool 


.......

Perhaps not _quite _what you wanted to hear, Larry, but I bought a glow-plug the other day to experiment with.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Perhaps not _quite _what you wanted to hear, Larry, but I bought a glow-plug the other day to experiment with.


Hope it fails!😄


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I don't *know* that. And I can certainly still find the EPA documents online that suggest otherwise.
> 
> Can you provide a link to some kind of EPA document that says oxalic acid is not required to be considered as a regulated pesticide when used to kill pests? (in this sense, varroa mites are a "pest")
> 
> ...


I have provided them in the past. Including one that specifically says OA is exempt from regulation.
"It is a violation of Federal law to use *this* product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling." 

You can edit that to say Any product if you wish. yo can also quote the regulations that say it is illegal to use any pesticide in a manner inconsistent with it's label. I will only tell you OA is not a pesticide. it is not that product either.

I say OA is no more illegal to put in a hive than Powdered sugar. But many seem to have some completely different opinion about sugar.

I do not wish to see OA as a pesticide. No more than I want to see powdered sugar determined to be a pesticide. It would then fall under regulation and the above label woudl have to be applied and "this" woudl then apply to it.

It is true that pesticides must be used in accordance with their label and that pesticides must all be labeled. The question then is what are pesticides and what are not. Not everything that kills a bug is a pesticide, and not subject to labeling requirements.

Did you know that these common products are considered pesticides?

Cleaners used to disinfect the kitchen floor.
Cleaning products used to remove the mildew on bathroom tiles.
Household plant sprays.
Lawn and garden products to kill insects and weeds.
Some swimming pool chemicals.

OA is a product used in household cleaners and has been considered a pesticide for that reason. it has also been determined to be exempt from regulations as a pesticide. It was then turned over to a special unit of the EPA for further consideration. Still no regulations have been issued. In other words it is not harmful enough for them to be concerned with. In fact regulations that where in place in the past have been removed due to re consideration.

But once again show me one instance where anyone has been prosecuted for using OA in a hive.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

"A pesticide is any substance or mixture of substances intended for preventing, destroying, repelling, or *mitigating* any pest." Which would include powdered sugar as it is used in a beehive or even a mite shake test. I don't think powdered sugar has even been considered or a determination made. OA has.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> I will only tell you OA is not a pesticide. it is not that product either.


See the _very clear_ definition of a pesticide quoted from the EPA in post #21.

A pesticide is legally defined by when a substance_ is used to target a "pest",_ *not *whether that substance may _also _have non-pesticide uses.



Some substances are legally pesticides, but not *registered *pesticides. Oxalic acid, _when used to control varroa mites_, clearly fits in that category.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> A pesticide is legally defined by when a substance_ is used to target a "pest",_ *not *whether that substance may _also _have non-pesticide uses.


Graham, I have a real problem with your interpretation .......... powdered sugar could fit that definition when used to target mites and block their breathing tubes.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I refer you to the EPA definition in post #21.

As I said earlier, in my opinion FIFRA - as currently written - is overly broad, but the definition quoted in post #21 is very clear.


Note that the EPA has a list of "generally regarded as safe" [GRAS] substances that can mitigate that pesticide definition in terms of required registration. Oxalic acid is not on the GRAS list. Sugar *may *be.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> As I said earlier, in my opinion FIFRA - as currently written - is overly broad, but the definition quoted in post #21 is very clear.


To my way of thinking, we're missing something here. Powdered sugar used to combat mites certainly cannot be considered a pesticide..........If you're not sure that sugar is on the GRAS list, how can you be sure that OA is?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

snl said:


> If you're not sure that sugar is on the GRAS list, how can you be sure that OA is?


That is not what I said. :no:

OA is *NOT *on the GRAS list - I checked. You are welcome to do your own research regarding sugar.



I did not write FIFRA, obviously. I don't like its overreaching scope. But a legal definition of a pesticide is what the law *says* as _written_, not what you or I _wish _it to be.


Write your congressperson!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Graham, i agree with you on what your definition says. I don't get how you separate substances like Sugar from those like OA in regerd to that definition.

I agree if you use OA in a hive for the purpose of killing mites it is a pesticide in accordance with your definition. I have not problem with that. But I also see that powder sugar dusting is just as much a pesticide. Now in the case of OA the EPA has looked at it and made a determination. they have set their regulations. and those regulations are "None". Now has the same thing happened with powdered sugar? I think not. Has the EPA rendered there determination on sugar? No. has it ever been submitted for ruling? No. If it where what do you suspect the EPA's ruling might be. I think of something like. "Hmmmm powdered sugar on bees. Well add a little milk and you have breakfast, next".

You quote the EPA and then make assumptions as to specific decisions they have made in regard to that quote. It is your assumptions that are incorrect. And I have provided links in the past to the specific decisions the EPA has made regarding OA. Look em up I am no more concerned about the use of OA in a hive than I am sugar or soapy water. As far as I can tell before the EPA could touch me they woudl have to first prove that OA harms a mite in the first place. I say that OA antagonizes the bees and causes them to go on a murdering spree. Mites are nothing more than collateral damage.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Graham, i agree with you on what your definition says. I don't get how you separate substances like Sugar from those like OA in regerd to that definition.


If your use of "you" is a reference to me personally, I did not make any comment about _sugar _being used as a pesticide. Sugar _may _be on the GRAS list, or it _may _not be. 

The legal status of sugar (with regard to FIFRA) does nothing to alter/modify/define the legal status of oxalic acid when *used to control varroa pest* under FIFRA.





Daniel Y said:


> As far as I can tell before the EPA could touch me they woudl have to first prove that OA harms a mite in the first place. I say that OA antagonizes the bees and causes them to go on a murdering spree. Mites are nothing more than collateral damage.


If you want to use oxalic acid to control mites in your hives, I have absolutely no problem with that! :thumbsup:

My comments are not about actions one should do or not do. Use oxalic acid or don't, your choice. My comments are limited to whether or not oxalic is regarded as a pesticide under FIFRA _*when used to control varroa mites*_.

Laws are broken on a regular basis by anyone simply driving a vehicle on the road. Only a very small percentage of the offenders who fail to "_maintain lane control_" actually get cited. But the definition under the law remains the same regardless of how many people violate that definition or the precise cause of that violation.

The same concept applies to pesticides, and specifically oxalic acid used to control varroa. Use it or don't use it, the legal definition of a pesticide remains the same. 

Write your congressperson if you don't like the current law! :lookout:




PS: If you _were _to get cited for OA, personally I feel a _better _defense would be that you are _bleaching the wood_ inside the the hives. After all, oxalic acid is widely recognized/sold as a wood bleach.  That defense might be easier for your attorney to present to the jury while maintaining a straight face. :shhhh:

.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

You use oxalic acid to bleach bee hair to get buckfast or italian bees.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> >OAV destroys the cuticle in the mite's feet very quickly and the mite's feet actually fall off. OAV also enters and blocks their breathing tubes thus suffocating them.
> But bees' feet are made of the same material... and their tracheae are as well...


OAV likely interferes with chitin synthesis, chitin is like the formica of fungi cell walls, acari, insects -- once formed is very resistant to decomposition. A a long, tangled chain, it is at risk in the formation stage when glucose molecules must be pasted together with a Oxygen bridge. Binding the free hydroxyl in solution or glucose with an aggressive acid like ascorbic or oxalic likely interferes with the enzyme that catalyzes the chain.

Here's a supposition-- honeybees are used to low pH solutions (as honey is naturally quite acid), and their chitin synthesis enzyme has the capacity to work in that environment, unlike mites which are not expecting to encounter it.

Anti-microbial drugs that target chitin synthesis in treatment of Candida -=-- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12570735


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