# Sticky  first attempt at queenrearing



## squarepeg

i have an idea i would like to get some feedback on about queenrearing.

i have access to a yard about four miles away that i wanted to set up as a nuc yard.

i was thinking about using the five frame nuc boxes that i alreay have, and splitting each one down the middle with a divider board, thus creating (2) two frame mating nucs in each one.

i like the idea of incubating the capped queen cells, allowing the virgins to hatch in my garage, and placing them in the mating nucs.

i figure if one side doesn't get mated, or if i use or sell the queen frome one side, i can use a couple of 3/8" holes in the divider board to do a newspaper(less) combine, and end up with a five frame nuc to use or sell.

i envision using a yard feeder for these, and robbing drawn comb and brood for my production yards.

i also envision some of the local beeks bringing me 4 frames in their five frame nucs to put virgins into.

do you think this will work?


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## Michael Palmer

squarepeg said:


> i was thinking about using the five frame nuc boxes that i alreay have, and splitting each one down the middle with a divider board, thus creating (2) two frame mating nucs in each one.


This comes to mind....

Root, A.I., ABC of Bee Culture, 1878

If we are to have this [a] quart of bees work to the best advantage, something depends upon the sort of hive they are domiciled in. A single comb, long and narrow, so as to string the bees out in one thin cluster, is very bad economy. Two combs would do very much better, but three would be a great deal better still. It is like scattering the firebrands widely apart; one alone will soon go out; two placed side by side will burn quite well; and three will make quite a fire. It is on this account that I would have a nucleus of three, instead of one or two frames. The bees seem to seek naturally a space between two combs; and the queen seldom goes to the outside comb of a hive, unless she is obliged to for want of room.


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## sqkcrk

Just what I have observed in a friends operation wherein he builds hundreds of three frame nucs, three to a deep box. The attempt is made to make a three frame split and add a queen cell to it. The resulting mated queen, along w/ the worker bees of course, will maintain a brood pattern between two combs, facing each other. They will blossom out as need for more space occurs and ambient temperatures aid in keeping brood warm.

There is a bee economy reason behind why Commercially Raised queens are raised in miniframe nucs. Doing so is more3 successful. Frames half or onethird the length of standard frames. I have seen three frames and a feeder used.


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## squarepeg

just what i was looking for mike and mark. three frames it will be.


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## squarepeg

i was inspired by lauri's description of using an egg incubator to hatch out queen cells, and then marking and placing the newly hatched virgins in her mating nucs.

is there any down side to this?


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## sqkcrk

Besides the handling of virgin queens? Maybe Mike has some experience there. I find them quite skittish on the comb and have never tried to pick one up. Whereas, mated and laying queens are realatively easier to grab hold of.

Personally I would rather have a virgin emerge into a mating nuc. How are you going to keep the emerging virgin queens seperate and safe from each other. Transporting and installing too? Just some things to think on.


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## squarepeg

good points mark. 

the capped queen cells are incubated in a 'hair roller' cage. when they hatch, they are in that cage.

lauri explains that she has found it important to remove the from the cage fairly quickly, and she places them on open cells of honey in her mating nuc. since they can't fly yet, handling shouldn't be too hard.

one down side would be getting those virgins placed in a timely manner, especially if one were rearing lots of queens. i am probably only going to raise about 20 at a time.


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## sqkcrk

Flying is not the problem, they run. Run like sprinters run. What I have observed. It's what draws my eye to them.

Give it a try. It just might be right for you.


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## Michael Palmer

No way would I use an incubator to emerge my virgins. With the proper time in in your work, I find it totally unnecessary and un-natural. Placing the cell in the nuc and allowing the virgin to emerge among her bees will always be the way I do it. 

No method is perfect. Adding an extra chore or two to the queen rearing process adds extra places where things can go wrong, reducing the eventual success and adding to the workload. 

The bees have been emerging virgins for eons...but now we need an incubator to do the job better??


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## Michael Palmer

sqkcrk said:


> Flying is not the problem, they run. Run like sprinters run.


Have you much experience in catching virgin queens on the comb? Believe it...miss them, fumble fingers...and away they'll fly.


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## jim lyon

My preference is to never see them until they are mated. Handle your ripe queen cells with care, "candle" them or just dont use them if you are suspicious of them at all and the number of non-hatching or poorly developed virgins will be a really, really small percentage.


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## squarepeg

my mating nuc yard will be about a 10 minute drive from my builder/finisher. how long is 'too long' for the cells to be out of the hive before placing them in the nuc?


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## Steven Ogborn

sqkcrk said:


> Flying is not the problem, they run. Run like sprinters run. What I have observed. It's what draws my eye to them.
> 
> Give it a try. It just might be right for you.


I noticed that this spring. Those "B's" are fast. They bob-n-weave like a boxer, like they're in a "Top Gun" dogfight. 
Running around and through,and under the other bees like a snake in tall grass.


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## squarepeg

jim, what do you mean by 'candle them'?


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## jim lyon

squarepeg said:


> jim, what do you mean by 'candle them'?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYs5Ot0ayBw&playnext=1&list=PL9A5A5C8676A0E452&feature=results_video


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## Michael Palmer

squarepeg said:


> my mating nuc yard will be about a 10 minute drive from my builder/finisher. how long is 'too long' for the cells to be out of the hive before placing them in the nuc?


Mine is about the same...a few miles. I harvest the cell bar frames of ripe cells, brushing off the bees, and place the frames in a nuc box on the front seat of my Jeep. I turn the heat up, and drive to the mating yard slowly, taking care when going over bumps and railroad tracks. My takes this summer from 128 nucs ranged from a low of 82 to a high of 118. Most of the time ithe catch was in the 90s.


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## squarepeg

thanks jim.

ok, so 'candling' is holding the cells up to a bright light, and seeing if it is 'full'?

i didn't see any plastic cups in the video, so i am assuming wax cups were used. are they just stuck to the bottom of the bar with melted wax?

is it best to use 'protector cups' when placing these capped cells in the nuc?


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## jim lyon

squarepeg said:


> thanks jim.
> 
> ok, so 'candling' is holding the cells up to a bright light, and seeing if it is 'full'?
> 
> i didn't see any plastic cups in the video, so i am assuming wax cups were used. are they just stuck to the bottom of the bar with melted wax?
> 
> is it best to use 'protector cups' when placing these capped cells in the nuc?


Those folks are making their own wax cups, there is an excellent video on dipping setups to make those as well and I believe it is also by Malka. I think it would inspire many to quit the plastic cups altogether. 
The cell protector debate is ongoing. I dont use them, many do. In some scenarios I think they are probably real good and what the heck they are cheap.
Here ya go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5LzXXVkA10


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## Daniel Y

jim lyon said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYs5Ot0ayBw&playnext=1&list=PL9A5A5C8676A0E452&feature=results_video


I don't know about you. but that does not look like careful handling of the queens cells as he cuts them from the bar and slaps them across the counter top.


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## jim lyon

Daniel Y said:


> I don't know about you. but that does not look like careful handling of the queens cells as he cuts them from the bar and slaps them across the counter top.


That was my impression the first time I saw it as well. It's not at all how we handle ripe cells but these folks do a lot of them, it's good to know that there is apparently a pretty good built in safety margin. The timing is really crucial, though, they would assuredly never be handled in such a manner even 24 hours earlier.


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## Whitetail

From what I've observed, newly hatched virgins are relatively easy to catch and handle. Somewhat sluggish, and flying is not an option. I've seen swarm queens a bit more active upon hatching, but I speculate they were held in their cells by the workers until the proper time for swarming. My kids hold newly hatched queens often. A couple days later, they are quite developed in their movements, are extremely quick, and potentially will fly. It's as if they consumed mass amounts of caffeine in that period.  I agree with Michael that the incubator is an added step. However, I segregate them a couple days before hatching. I don't have to worry about opening up a cell builder to find a virgin appeared and cleaned me out. Also if someone comes to pick up cells and an opportune rain shower appeared that day, no worries. I like to take them out of the builder four or five days before they hatch for safety and convenience. Newly hatched virgins do have a short "shelf life" of not cared for properly. It's best to use them within 12-24 hours unless you bank then in a queenless hive for a short time. Be careful introducing virgins that have been banked a couple days. Don't give them an escape route..... They're extremely flighty.


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## squarepeg

thanks whitetail.

i have no experience, but i do like the idea of making sure it's a good cell, seeing that hatches properly, and the convenience of getting the marking done.

i'll probably only do about a dozen or so at a time, and my plan is to put them straight away into five frame nucs for mating, set up with 2-3 frames of bees. 

my schedule is pretty flexible, so i shoud be able to get the timing right.


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## Whitetail

Candling as previously mentioned is very handy. You can cull cells that are blanks. Some queens will just stop developing at various stages and the cell will be capped and appear healthy from an outward appearance. The best time to candle is right before they hatch. You can see the queens moving in the cells. Very facinating. But, you better have cages to segregate them. When they're wigglers, they're within hours of hatching.


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## squarepeg

very good info, thanks again to all. 

from what i can tell, lauri put the hair roller cages on the cells when she put them into the incubator. i guess that's what i'll try.

is there a guideline for how long is too long to keep a frame of young larva out of the hive while grafting?


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## DRAKOS

Keep them under a wet towel, and you are OK


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## Lauri

I love my incubator for hatching out the queens. My operation is very small compared to Michael Palmers and the 'extra step' is enjoyable.
Queen rearing is still new to me. I am still enthusiastic. When it becoms a 'Job' I may have a different opinion about my methods. But for now, I am completly satisfied with my procedures.

Placing cells in mating nucs _is_ faster and efficient. Checking mating nucs for a successful hatch takes time too. You can easily have mating nucs that are queenless and out of service too long if you don't.

But I Hate looking for unmarked queens, especially virgins. By marking mine as soon as they hatch, then placing in the mating nucs, they are a snap to find. Even in a five frame deep nuc, as long as they aren't out on a mating flight.
I found no difference between successful return percentage with both marked an unmarked virgins. The time I save NOT looking for queens in the nucs has to be far more than the time I spend incubating them.










Besides, I handle them a few times before I place them and teach them to sit and stay. 

Watch these videos..These are how I learned. Of course I modified them to my own ideas, mating nuc designs and climate. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZlQ7mNmf6o&list=ULjVwAiUJ4fdQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwAiUJ4fdQ&list=ULwZlQ7mNmf6o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3lLihcBHkQ&list=ULjVwAiUJ4fdQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV-3Bz7TNlU&list=ULW3lLihcBHkQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELLczfL2bp8&list=ULlV-3Bz7TNlU

Heres a few more photos. You'll have a blast raising the queens



























Poor mans incubator..but it works just fine:


















What I don't like waiting for is the queen to lay in the Mann Lake grid. I like grafting directly in the grid's cell cups and using the brown and yellow cell holders. Then I can use the roller cages at any stage once they are capped.
I still use the grid, but don't depend on it for any schedule.










I had a hard time getting the brown cup holders to stay put. Nails didn't work, glue didn't help. Stapler was the ticket.


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## squarepeg

ok, i've got permission for a yard for the nucs, i've got my equipment list going for queen rearing supplies,
i've got good bees to graft from, but i still have some questions, starting with this one:

what are the pros and cons of using a queenright hive for a cell builder?


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## Michael Palmer

How do you plan on setting up the cell builder? Placing a graft above an excluder? Is there open brood up there, too?

I elevate brood above an excluder at the start of the cell building process. 10 days later the brood is all sealed and that box becomes the cell builder, but is separated from the queen-righjt section. When I check the queenless brood before grafting, only about 20% have started cells. Not a very good average. These cells are removed and my graft is added. Then I get 90% or more acceptance.


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## Whitetail

A pro would be a constantly laying queen to keep up the population of the cell builder, without having to add brood. You'll want to use a brand new queen in the queen right builder, otherwise it's likely you'll lose her. I've lost some really good queens with queen right builders, as I use some of my best colonies to build cells. For some reason, when the broodnest is segregated by an excluder, it alters their behavior. It seems the queen will slim down in preparation for swarming(cease egg laying). Shortly after that, she'll vanish with part of the population. Keep a close eye on her.


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## squarepeg

thanks for the replies.

i am only going to attempt about a dozen cells at a time, and probably only do 2 or3 rounds.

with such few cells per round, is it necessary to have such a big cell building colony?

i was hoping to pack a five frame nuc box full of nurse bees, with capped brood, honey, pollen, and a feeder. and then start a nuc or two out of those after the building is done.

mp, are you saying that acceptance is better if all the brood is capped in the cell building part (above the excluder) before you introduce your graft?


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## Michael Palmer

On grafting day I separate the queen-right and queen-less sections, shaking the nurse bees from the queen-right into cell builder. Add graft in afternoon. I want the only larvae in the hopelessly queen-less cell builder to be my grafts.

I also want the cell builder packed with nurse bees...and field bees. 

Got Bees?


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## cg3

If that's what's needed for a cell builder, I think I'm out of luck.


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## squarepeg

understood michael, i think. 10 days before grafting you move frames of brood up above an excluder and let that brood become capped. on grafting day, you physically remove this box that was above the excluder, (destroy any queen cells that may have been started?), and shake in more nurse bees, thus creating a 'new' queenless hive (with all its brood capped) for cell building. is that about right?


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## Lburou

Lauri said:


> Watch these videos..These are how I learned. Of course I modified them to my own ideas, mating nuc designs and climate.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZlQ7mNmf6o&list=ULjVwAiUJ4fdQ
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwAiUJ4fdQ&list=ULwZlQ7mNmf6o
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3lLihcBHkQ&list=ULjVwAiUJ4fdQ
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV-3Bz7TNlU&list=ULW3lLihcBHkQ
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELLczfL2bp8&list=ULlV-3Bz7TNlU


Thanks for those videos Lauri, just what I needed.


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## Michael Palmer

squarepeg said:


> understood michael, i think. 10 days before grafting you move frames of brood up above an excluder and let that brood become capped. on grafting day, you physically remove this box that was above the excluder, (destroy any queen cells that may have been started?), and shake in more nurse bees, thus creating a 'new' queenless hive (with all its brood capped) for cell building. is that about right?


Almost. The added brood is mostly sealed and emerging...over the next several days. This creates the big supply of nurse bees, especially when added to the nurse bee population already in the colony. 

Yes, you remove the cell building box, remove the queen-right colony and place it on the ground behind original stand facing the other way, and place cell builder on original stand. Cell builder gets most of the nurses and all of the field force.

You check for swarm cells below the excluder and emergency cells above.


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## squarepeg

got it!! thank-you michael.

should i have a feeder on the cell builder? pollen sub?
(i anticipate a strong flow on when i attempt this)

to get started, i'll be using 5 frame nucs for mating.

but if this takes off into more than a few here and there, how do you go about getting comb drawn in those mini mating nucs?


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## Michael Palmer

Always feed your cell builder thin syrup, until the cells are sealed. Place a good pollen comb next to the grafts.


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## squarepeg

can do michael, thanks.


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## Whitetail

That's a nice looking builder MP. Well done.


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## westernbeekeeper

Michael Palmer said:


> On grafting day I separate the queen-right and queen-less sections, shaking the nurse bees from the queen-right into cell builder. Add graft in afternoon. I want the only larvae in the hopelessly queen-less cell builder to be my grafts.
> 
> I also want the cell builder packed with nurse bees...and field bees.
> 
> Got Bees?


Hold the fort! Thats the best cell builder I've seen in, well, ever.


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## Michael Palmer

It really isn't so difficult to create such a colony. Take one strong colony with prolific queen...like one having 10 frames of brood. Add a body full of emerging brood on top above and excluder. 10 days later, separate as I said, and give graft. 10 days later harvest cells, and do it again. 10 days later...this is what you have. Probably upwards of 15 frames of brood *below* the excluder...7 or 8 of those open brood...got nurses?


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## cg3

Thanks, Michael. This is great info without having to puzzle it out from books.


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## Zier64

Hi Lauri- what do you keep the incubator set at and what do you put in for humidity for hatching? I live the idea on a small scale was thinking about trying this for fun too  Can put virgins into mini's i like the idea rather than the wait would love to try.


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## squarepeg

also lauri, what humidity are you shooting for, and on what day to you transfer the capped cells to the incubator?


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## Whitetail

Keep the incubator at 92-93 F for queen cells. My incubator is older, but has a trough for water, as I assume most still do. Keeping some in it at all times provides adequate humidity. You can put them in there any time after capping. I prefer leaving them in the builder a couple days after capping to let them sculpt and strengthen the cell walls. Thats probably all you gain though.....

Sorry, I know the question wasn't directed at me. Lauri might have more to add......


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## squarepeg

got it! thanks whitetail.


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## Lauri

My rather non scientific approach first attempt was to try hatching the queen cells exactly like I do with hatching bird eggs. I just kept the water reservoir half full and left the two vent plugs out of the top. It was perfect. 
My problem was I couldn't find a reliably correct thermometer or humidity meter, or at least one I trusted. So my first try was just winging it. I placed the thermometer on the bottom of the incubator set at 92 degrees. The heating element is about 5" higher than that so I figured the interior temp at the top, where the queen cells were sitting in the hair roller cages was a few degrees warmer.My incubator has a circ fan-so the heat is distributed fairly evenly through out the interior. My gestation time and hatch rate were exactly on time-so that is the temp I went with all summer.

I keep looking at the Cabelas commercial food dehydrator as a shell for a home made incubator. I have one and it is amazing for drying food, but the fan is like a jet engine. If you disable the fan, the heating may or may not be controllable. A small heating element and circulation fan would work if you can get them appropriate for the interior size.

I have one that is a scratch and dent I may try to convert.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Home...9.uts?destination=/catalog/browse/_/N-1101295

I put the cells in the incubator one or two days before hatching. I have also placed them in the incubator just a day after capping with just sightly lower hatch rates than more mature cells. I had problems with the cells being beautifully capped in the finisher hive and a few days later, many would be covered with burrcomb.Grrr...I tried everything that was suggested on Beesource for that without much improvement. Now, soon after they are capped, I cover them with a roller cage and have the flexability of moving them to the incubator any time it is convienent for me and weather permitting.

I did not candle my cells last year and plan to do that this next season. No big deal in the incubator if they don't hatch though. A bigger deal if you are placing cells in the mating nuc if they are not viable.


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## squarepeg

many thanks lauri!

i can see where putting the hair rollers on while in the cell builder is a good idea.

is this the incubator you are using?

http://incubatorwarehouse.com/little-giant-incubator-circulated-air.html

i want to try the paintbrush too, any tips on what size?


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## Lauri

Yes, that's the incubator I used.
I used the smallest paint brush I could find. Here are a few I just picked up at Michael's crafts. They are a #0 or #1 I believe..about $3.50 each. A short thick handle that may be good. I hadn't seen these before and thought I'd try them. I needed a short handle to get it under my magnifier light just right. I just broke half off the old paint brush handle last year.










I cut back the comb severely so if you have older comb that is deeper, you may need a slightly larger brush. 
I swizzle the brush in an old larva's royal jelly reserves, then moisten the receiving cell cup. Not to prime it so to speak, but just to moisten it for some moisture adhesion to aid in placing the larva. Trying to get a bunch of royal jelly with the larva just makes it harder to get them off the brush. They say the bees just clean it up anyway? I'm also getting just a bit of moisture in the cell cup so the larva are not placed in a dry environment for any length of time. Lightly roll clockwise to lift the larva, counterclockwise to get the little buggers off gently. I tried the Chinese grafting tool. I can pick up OK, but getting them off was harsh, even when I had them hanging off the end. I like the paint brush far better. It's soft, flexable and gentle.


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## squarepeg

perfect. i can't wait to try this......


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## Lauri

You will enjoy it. I was expecting a lot of trial and error and was pleasantly surprised to have success right from the start. There are alot of ways to get to the same end result. You just need to read up, choose a few methods and try them. There are a lot of threads about raising queens without grafting. SO many in fact it seemed like people created a lot more work for themselves just trying to aviod grafting. You might as well just learn how to do it. My first grafts were as successful and my grid system, which told me it was my cell builder and finishers that were in need of work. Manipulating _those _bees to perform reliably was more of a learning curve than grafting.


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## squarepeg

if i remember right, you gave up on the cell grid. but are you happy with the rest of the stuff in the mann lake system?

have you used the candy cups?


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## Daniel Y

A home made incubator is not hard to make. I have made several. Here are a bunch and some include fairy good instructions.
http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/homemade-chicken-egg-incubator-designs-pictures

Here is what I have learned in making about 4 different ones.

Use a well insulated box big enough for your purpose. Better insulation means better heat control and a smaller heat source.

A light bulb works fine for heat in a small incubator.

I eventually bought a heat controller but the hot water thermostat works fine if you keep the back facing the bulb and close to it. by close I mean a couple of inches away. 

Humidity is a factor of water surface to air volume. so the size of the container maters only in regard to to the surface area. I don't know how critical humidity is to queen incubation.

As for the reliability of a thermometer or a Hygrometer. Thermometers are easier to find that are fairly accurate. I buy the ones they sell for aquariums at Wal Mart. I take every thermometer they have and look at them side by side. the ones that all read the same temp are the ones I buy.

Hygrometers are never accurate you need to calibrate them. this is simple to do. Here is one set of instructions.
http://www.hermitcrabassociation.com/pages/calibrate.html
Note hygrometer does not go in the salt solution. it goes in a bag or container with the salt solution. After it has set for several hours. I like it to set for 24 hours. read what it says. the humidity in the bag is 75% that is known. so if your meter reads anything but that is how much it is off. I simply write that number on the meter. So if the meter reads 3% to high I write -3. that tells me to subtract 3 from the number I am reading.

A thermometer is even easier. Lauri does what I do. I know through trial and error the temperature I want to see on the thermometer when it is placed in a certain location. So if reading 92 degrees on a thermometer placed on the floor gives me the desired results. that is what I watch for. If that same thermometer where moved up higher it might read 95 degrees. IT is not a matter of measuring the exact temperature as it is having some measurement to go by. once you know the correct reading for any given thermometer that thermometer is like gold.

A big note on making your own once you build it and have the temp set pretty close. just shut it up and let it set 24 hours. let the incubator stabilize. If you reset the temp every time it goes over or under your desired setting you will go nuts. temperature swings back and forth at first. So just let the incubator set for a few hours at least and then decide if you are over or under your target temp.

Also I would really suggest you have a back up bulb and thermostat wired into the set up. in case the first bulb ever burns out. set that stat just a degree or two below the first. Otherwise keep the queens indoors where you can watch them all the time.

For parts any box you can find will work. Styrofoam ice chests work very well.

Bottle lamp kit 
http://www.walmart.com/ip/GE-Bottle-Lamp-Kit/16561522
You can find them at Home Depot also.
Thermostat
http://www.lowes.com/10-15/_/N-2z8vk/pl?Ntt=hot+water+heater+thermostat
You can probably find the stat at Wal Mart and I know you can get them at Home Depot.

Hardest part is getting the bulb set up with the stat to get a narrow range of temp. remember just keep it close and with the back facing the bulb.

Wiring the stat. A stat is nothing but a switch that is controlled by temperature. So look up how to wire a switch.
http://www.photocar.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/house-wire-light-switches-6.jpg

Or ask me when you get there.


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## squarepeg

dan, thanks for taking the time to post the tips.

(not as handy here as you and lauri)


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## deknow

The biggest downside to hatching queens in an incubator is that Mike Palmer will make fun of you (ask me how I know this).

I use a reptile egg incubator. The biggest issue with an incubator in general is having the heat swing up and down..two things contribute to this problem...the amount of heat coming out of the heating element, and the mass of everything inside the incubator. The reptibator pulses the heating element so that it never gets too hot.

I often have them emerge into hair roller cages, wooden cages, jzbz cages, or glass vials. In our case, we have a lot of things going on, and one of our yards is 2 hours away (several are an hour plus). The incubator gives us a bit of a buffer in the timing.

I set my incubator at 94 (the thermostat on my incubator is probably more accurate than a standard chicken incubator thermostat), i leave a small container of water in the incubator for humidity (this also acts as mass, keeping the temperature stable).

All things being equal, I think it's best to let the virgin emerge into a hive....but I can carry a half dozen virgins in my shirt pocket all day at a market and then go install them....without having to plan my timing 2+ weeks ahead of time.

deknow


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## Michael Palmer

deknow said:


> The biggest downside to hatching queens in an incubator is that Mike Palmer will make fun of you (ask me how I know this).
> deknow


"Ha-ha!" Nelson


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## squarepeg

thank-you dean and good morning.

(mike has been patient with me, as have you, but i can just see him rolling his eyes...)

i noticed the reptile ones when i was searching, i'll take a closer look at them.

i'll probably play around with placing cells in the nucs too and compare how things work.

do you provide anything to eat in the cages for the newly hatched virgins?

how does one get comb drawn on those little mating nuc frames?


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## Michael Palmer

squarepeg said:


> (mike has been patient with me, as have you, but i can just see him rolling his eyes...)
> 
> how does one get comb drawn on those little mating nuc frames?


1. Place them above the brood chamber of a strong colony...either end to end, or in special made supers.
2. Place them end to end at the edges of the brood in a strong colony. 

3. Once you have some mini-nucs up and running, each will draw foundation. In fact....

We were catching queens one day. Good flow on. Strong minis. Have to replace a comb with foundation to give them room. Went back into the nuc 15 minutes after adding the foundation. It was almost fully drawn. 15 minutes!


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## squarepeg

thanks michael, that makes sense to get them drawn first.

15 minutes! that's amazing.


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## Daniel Y

I am goign to have to rear some queens just to be able to rear some queens. I did that last year that is how I came up with two nucs. But now it is looking like it was not nearly enough.

I like the cell starter separate from the cell finisher but no way I will be able to pull that off. I am going to try and find someone with land so I can set up more hives. I am looking for land to buy but that is going nowhere fast ATM. If I do find places to set hives I may not accomplish much more than producing queens for myself next summer.

The cell starter and finisher in one method requires two strong colonies to start. I have one and two nucs. So there will be a delay of some sort in getting the nucs to build up.

The separate starter and finisher requires three strong colonies. no way I can accomplish that this next year soon enough. 

It looks like I am going to have to build up my colonies and maybe shoot for later season queens.


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## squarepeg

wishing you success with your goals dan!

much depends on the weather, hopefully it won't be too weird.


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## deknow

As for the thermostat, I've recently done a project with a Ranco ETC-111000-000. A little more expensive than some other options, but it has an adjustable differential (how many degrees swing does it allow before it turns on or off), a temp probe on the end of a long wire, and plenty of wiring options...I wired mine to wall current, and through it, I run a 120vac electric oil filled "radiator" type heater. You can also run it on 12V and/or run a 12V element. It will also do cooling. You need to do some wiring (it has terminal blocks with screws), or find someone that can do that for you (don't screw around with wall current).


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## beemandan

deknow said:


> You can also run it on 12V


Dean, the specs I saw on this indicate 120/208/240 VAC. If it can operate on 12VDC without a power inverter...it might have some possibilities.....


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## deknow

beemandan said:


> Dean, the specs I saw on this indicate 120/208/240 VAC. If it can operate on 12VDC without a power inverter...it might have some possibilities.....


Sorry, my mistake. They appear to make a separate model that will run 24VAC, but no 12V...and not on this unit.

As the "output" is simply a relay, you could run anything (within reason) through it (including a separate 12v line from the car battery), and I can't imagine you'd need much of an inverter to simply run the computer and relay. You could rig a fan to the cooling end of the thermostat.

deknow


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## Daniel Y

I bought two controllers. I will see if I can find the information on them. The Ranco above is very likely higher quality but the ones I got are much lower price. Pick your poison. I am able to keep a close constant watch on my stuff so if things fail it is more tolerable. if you are going to be away. quality is of more value. My controllers also must be wired and programed. the programming is a bti confusing because the controller does a lot of things the average person would not think needs to be done. such as the differential deknow mentions. Note a longer delay or larger swing in temp saves your heating element. Some heat sources can only be turned on and off every so often. so it can be an equipment saver. Light bulbs is cheap but do cause some problems. they get to hot on Styrofoam for example. Are prone to burning out when they going on and off to often etc. I love the temp controller because I can set one up for say 94 degrees and one fore 93 degrees and the second does not operate unless the first one fails. Hot water thermostats are not so accurate. Again pick your poison.

Here is the controller I bought
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110V-10A-Mi...100?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6ab162dc

At any rate I highly suggest a temp controller over a thermostat.


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## Daniel Y

squarepeg said:


> wishing you success with your goals dan!
> 
> much depends on the weather, hopefully it won't be too weird.


Hee Hee, If it where easy I would probably not be interested.


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## Daniel Y

This is the controller with a 12 V DC option.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Automatic-D...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item25716f4675


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## winevines

squarepeg said:


> my mating nuc yard will be about a 10 minute drive from my builder/finisher. how long is 'too long' for the cells to be out of the hive before placing them in the nuc?


We've done a lot of transfer of cells in this area. I have found a Styrofoam vial holder inside a small foam cooler a good transfer method, but a tissue in a coffee cup also works. Travel time from 5 minute to an hour and a good take rate from cells moved in this manner. 

A good story though... One time friends came over transporting cells from a breeder I had lent them - they had an hours drive to me and when they opened the back of the van we had virgins emerging- and it was a good thing that those cells had been put into some sort of queen cage for their ride... I named them all "Driveway" as we were transferring them all just sitting in the driveway - but to be honest, they knew that their timing might have been a day or two off and that some cells were ready to emerge. usually emergence during short travel should not be a problem. 
And guess what- I got more virgin queens I had planned on and just ripped frames from every which colony I had- threw together mating nucs all in the same yard not caring who flew back to where... and all in a lovely 95 degree Virginia summer afternoon.... They all mated and survived so far.


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## squarepeg

yep. hmm.....


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## squarepeg

first grafts attempted today, got my fingers crossed!


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## Lburou

squarepeg said:


> first grafts attempted today, got my fingers crossed!


We want to see pictures! I have confidence in you squarepeg.


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## squarepeg

thanks a lot lee! i have been meaning to get a camera for the beeyard........


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## Lauri

SQUAREPEG!
I just found this in your starter hive!










Wait a minute....That was in MY starter. :doh:


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## jim lyon

Welcome to the club Lauri. I'm good for a few of those myself each year. A word of warning, though, the damage may not be over yet. There is often a "ripple effect" as I have seen where some of those virgins may escape into nearby finishers. Monitor any neighboring hives closely.


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## squarepeg

:lpf:

many thanks for the replies!


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## JRG13

uh oh, someone got out of their 'cell' and did some damage...


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## winevines

How many folks use a type of queen excluder on the entrances of starter/finishers to prevent rogue virgins? And if so, what are the pros and cons? I imagine you trap drones inside the colonies...


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## Lauri

JRG13 said:


> uh oh, someone got out of their 'cell' and did some damage...


She is the only queen I have ever named...'Fang' is written on her mating nuc


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## Daniel Y

Sorry to see that Laurie. I think I would have had a lot more colorful names for that queen myself.


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## squarepeg

15 out of 19 accepted! some getting more attention than others.


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## Daniel Y

Extremely nice acceptance. I think I got 18 accepted out of 96 grafts. Starting over from the very beginning. we are buidling queen castles today. have 10 cells due to emerge on wed or thurs. We will then place the empty frames for the mini nucs in full size hives until they are drawn and filled with brood. that will give us more room to get queens mated. that is when we will attempt to graft again.

Basically we did not have anything correct. From 8 queens emerged so far we only have one that is good enough quality or that has remained long enough to possibly get mated. She may be already. I will not check for another week.

So far all I have accomplished is a whole lot of how not to do it.


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## JRG13

I was gonna name her yesterday Lauri, but Fang is a good one and for the life of me I can't remember what I was going to say. Hopefully she turns out good cuz she owes you about $800 in daughters....


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## squarepeg

i went ahead and looked at the cells this evening, which is day 4 after grafting.

i've got 12 capped cells.

half of them are nice size and the plastic cups are full of royal jelly.

the other half are smaller and not so much jelly. i attribute this to not much of a flow here right now and i didn't provide any feed. my builder colony could have been a little stronger as well. i'll be ready next year!

i'll use the six good ones, and put roller cages on the others just to see if they hatch out in the cell builder.


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## Lburou

Congratulations!

I'm sure that outcome is way better than average for a first graft. 

Where are the pictures?


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## winevines

squarepeg said:


> the other half are smaller and not so much jelly. i attribute this to not much of a flow here right now and i didn't provide any feed. my builder colony could have been a little stronger as well. i'll be ready next year!


Pretty much anything you read by anyone using any method says to rear queens, best on a flow, and if not feed. most feed even with a flow on.


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## squarepeg

thanks karla, yep that's what most recommend.

i'm kind of a no feeding beekeeper for the most part, and this was a bit of an experiment anyway being so late in the season here.

my next attempt will be next spring at the beginning of the flow when the bees are making queens and drones like crazy on their own.

but, if even a few of these take and they are anything like their mama, i'll be thrilled!


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## squarepeg

lee, sorry about no photos. i'm working on it!


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## squarepeg

today is day 8 post graft. i've got six queenless nucs ready for the six best cells.

i'll do this wednesday evening.

i'm going to cage the other six, allow them to emerge in the finisher, remove them and keep them banked inside the house until i see if the six i placed in the nucs emerge. if the ones i place don't emerge i'll try introducing the virgins.

(assuming i still have 12 capped cells and 'fang' hasn't shown up since the last time i looked  )

thanks again for all of the helpful feedback.


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## squarepeg

the threat of heavy rain for the next few days prompted the placement of the cells this evening (day 9.5 after grafting).

i still had 12 on the rack and they were all covered with nurse bees, so i am assuming for now they are viable.

i placed the best looking 6 cells in the mating nucs i had prepared, and caged the rest. i'll try to get the caged ones out as soon as they hatch and start feeding them.

i'm not sure what to do next about the placed cells other than wait and see. i was thinking i would check for emergence on day 16 or so and if they don't hatch trying to introduce one of the virgins if i get any.


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## Lauri

Weather! Grrr...Yeah Too hot, too cold, when do we get jussssst right? My last graft batch was looking good until our high heat wave the last few days. Temps near 100..now the cells look like you know what.
I feel like Goldilocks. WAIT -That would mean Bears are next! :v:


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## Daniel Y

In all we lost all cells or queens from our first three attempts. We finally made a couple of queen castles so we can just move frames of brood to mating nucs. More preparation needs to be done on the mini nuc frames so we placed those in hives so they will be drawn with comb and filled with brood.

4th and 5th attempt plus a couple of wild queen cells has resulted in 7 queens now in two castles. Today tomorrow and the next day they are due for their mating flights. I have not even opened the castles to check on them. They have constant syrup and mega bee. This will give me half the queens I need to reach my goal of 22 langstroth hives. I am working on putting together the next attempt at the other half. waiting for frames to get drawn or making one more queen castle.


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## Lauri

To see how I got these mini frames drawn out in just a few days, go to my facebook page at link below:




































https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510

Click on each photo on the facebook page for detailed info. Video shows brushing bees off their frames-from a 10 frame deep- onto mini frames and caging the existing queen for a few days until they started drawing out the new comb.Then I turned her lose so she could get back to work. I used those older frames of brood the bees were brushed off of to freshin my starter hive.


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## squarepeg

*beginner's luck!*

five out the six cells i left in the finisher emerged into their roller cages today. 

good looking virgins (nice length) even though they came from the smaller of the capped cells.

i brought them inside and tried to get them to take some diluted honey that i had saturated some wax cappings with. they showed no interest in the honey, but rather buried their heads into the end of the cages and just sat there.

i decided to put some workers in the cages to see if that would perk them up and it did.

the honey on the wax cappings wasn't a good idea as they were all getting sticky, so i replaced the cappings with a saturated cotton ball.

the sixth cell (the one that didn't emerge) was the smallest cell of the bunch and the nurse bees were ignoring it so i decided to open it. sure enough, it wasn't viable. it looked to have stopped developing about mid-pupation.

seeing these today gives me hope that the better looking cells i placed in the nucs are going to be alright. now they just have to get mated and we'll see if they are anything like their queen mother.

i'll probably take a look on saturday if the rain stops long enough to make sure they emerged.

thanks again for all the replies, this first attempt will be a memorable one!


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## Daniel Y

*Re: beginner's luck!*

WE went back to the something of a system that has produced queens for me in the past. We completed the third of three Queen Castles yesterday. These are 10 frame bodies with three dividers that create 4 compartments in each castle 2 frames per compartment. 8 of our emerged queens had been placed in these over a week ago. I inspected yesterday morning and all but one queen was missing. But many of them had started queen cells so i split the compartments of the castles and added frames of open brood to all of them. one compartment has a laying queen and needs to be transferred to a 5 frame nuc. We also have 2 5 frame nucs that need are queenless and had frames of brood added to them. hopefully each compartment and nuc will manage to rear a queen for itself. This is the only way I have been able to produce queens in the past so I hope it works. In all it is 14 tiny colonies under way and I need to put together one more. When the compartment with the mated queen is transferred it will open a space to make one more starter colony. If nothing else we are ready for next spring when the bees naturally make queen cells.


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## Joseph Clemens

*Re: beginner's luck!*

I'm not sure where the myth about newly emerging virgin queens not being able to fly, originated. But a few days ago, I was minutes behind schedule placing a bar of cells into individual California mini cages, for emergence there. But, the cells had already begun emerging. I took them out of the cell builder, placed the bar on the bench nearby, with the cell tips, up. Then I scrambled to catch the virgins as they continued to emerge, and place each one in her own cage. There were several chewing their way out, all at the same time. I managed to capture most of them, but two tried to fly off on me -- the first one to fly I managed to catch out of the air, but the last one flew up, up, and away. I think I found her later, back in the cell builder colony (it still had its cover off). I also went through the cell builder and rounded up another six or seven, who had emerged before I pulled the cell bar. Fortunately they hadn't got around to eliminating each other, yet.

Later this morning I plan to graft a new batch into this cell builder (I already gave them fresh combs of brood/pollen). But I think I'll sort them all through an excluder to help ensure no other virgin is in there, or I'm sure they'll reduce my graft takes to zero.


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## squarepeg

very cool daniel. i really like the idea of using queen castles for mating nucs. i want to get a few of those for next year.

any ideas about why 7/8 of your queens were missing? i think returning from mating flights is going to be the hard part here too.


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## squarepeg

good work joseph salvaging that round of queens! mine hatched on the 11th day after grafting, i guess because it has been warm lately.


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## Daniel Y

I can't really say where those queens went. I do know I did not like the look of the quality of them. The only queen that did look good is still there. My gut tells me the bees where not impressed with these queens and did them in as soon a they had mated and laid the first eggs there is some very spotty open larva in these nucs. That is just purely what my gut tells me. I think if I can get at least one quality queen produced in each nuc they will be off and running.

In all the vanishing act of queens in my apiary this year has me concerned. It has been happening since April.


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## squarepeg

interesting daniel. i sometimes have hives that fail to requeen themselves and i'm not sure why. i suspect that there are predatory birds around that make a meal on them from time to time.

i just got in from checking my mating nucs, and the queens emerged from their cell in all six of them.

now we'll have to see how the mating goes.

that leaves me with five virgins in the garage that i am offering free of charge to any of our local club members that want to try them.


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## mroark

Lauri said:


> To see how I got these mini frames drawn out in just a few days, go to my facebook page at link below:
> 
> 
> Click on each photo on the facebook page for detailed info. Video shows brushing bees off their frames-from a 10 frame deep- onto mini frames and caging the existing queen for a few days until they started drawing out the new comb.Then I turned her lose so she could get back to work. I used those older frames of brood the bees were brushed off of to freshin my starter hive.


Is there a specific post on your FB with the info? When I clicked on the link it just took me to your main fb page.


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## Lauri

Just scroll down to posts made a few days ago. You'll see the photos there. Click on each photo for more details.


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## Lauri

'I'm not sure where the myth about newly emerging virgin queens not being able to fly, originated.'

The other morning I walked by my incubator in the kitchen to get my coffee and something big flew right by my face. I got my coffee and sat down to take out the cells that had hatched over night and mark the virgins. As I was preparing to do that, I big fat virgin landed right next to me on the counter! What the...??? Yup, she hatched that night, pushed her way past the JZBZ cup that was sitting on top the roller cage, got out of the incubator through the fan grid and was flying around the kitchen! I guess she oriented to the incubator. I was still a little blurry eyed and really couldn't believe what had happened. When I looked sure enough, there was a roller cage and hatched JZBZ cell with no queen in it. 
So yeah, they can fly all right.
And ready to make their break whenever possible. 

The newly hatched virgins are usually a little confused, blurry eyed like I was, and slower moving. Give them a few hours and they are runny and stronger. A virgin that has just hatched, direct released on a frame will be submissive to the bees that come to investigate her. Sometimes She'll curl up or lay on her side a bit like she is frightened. 

A 12+ hour old virgin will strut right out like she owns the frame.

As always, This has just been my experience...


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## mroark

I picked up a frame the other day that had a queen cell on it, she hatched in front of my face flew across my bee yard and into another open hive.


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## kilocharlie

Laurie's story reminds me of the day a queen and a drone were doing their thing and landed on my ear before falling to the ground. A week later another pair landed right in front of me not 5 feet from the same place. Now, that's gotta be a DCA!


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## squarepeg

update:

four out of six cells place in mating nucs are now big fat queens laying perfect patterns, with the other two most likely victims of predatory birds and/or dragonflies.

no word on the five virgins that i gave away to club members to try.


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## squarepeg

three out of those four are now heading the strongest and heaviest hives in my production yard.

the fourth one swarmed out of a five frame nuc this summer and her replacement didn't make it.

still no word on the virgins that i gave away.


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## CajunBee

Thanks for the follow-up. I browse many threads trying to learn and often wonder the outcome.


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## BjornH

A new emerged queen is a bee. So, yes, when dried she can fly as good, if she needs to, as any bee. A friend picked out one out of the incubator and marked her..Suddenly the queen took of..and my friends German schepard catched it..Note: Dont have dogs in the incubator room...


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## ILpreacher

I am getting started this year with queen rearing. I would like to ask how are you going to keep them from balling the Virgin queen.


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## BjornH

I usually mix her in a shook in a new mating nuc. Well fed, only strip starters. Keeping the mating nuc confined in dark, cool place for three days. As long as they have started to build comb in earenst, they "never" abscond.. But, i have thrown in newly emerged ( they hatched in the transport box) in queen right hives. Since she is not smelling ( and some aditional smoke and of course the slight comotion removing the supers) the result is 50-80% supersedure ( like puttibg in a cell). Only seen balling once and that was a marked virgin from a nearby mating yard. Her last mistake...


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## Lauri

ILpreacher said:


> I am getting started this year with queen rearing. I would like to ask how are you going to keep them from balling the Virgin queen.


There are a lot of ways to prep receiving nucs others can suggest. 
But after while you get a feel for the bees, then can push the boundaries with your methods. 

I try to set cells as much as possible, but I still do a lot of direct release, it's more effective for me than using JZBZ release with virgins.

Kind of like riding a young horse. Before you climb on ask yourself,

"is he WITH me or AGAINST me? 

His Body language will tell you if you learn to read it. It's the same with the bees.

I even am usually successful direct releasing a virgin queen in to a laying worker colony, when I come across them on occasion. Pretty funny, those drones.

"How YOU doin???"

Heres the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGGX0Wu-B9E









This nuc was in pretty sad shape, but they'll fix those drone cells once she is mated and clean those frames up pretty well.

I usually place a capped cell in this situation, but if I have extra virgins and they'll accept her, why not? It's interesting to see what you can get away with.


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## DocBB

*Re: first attempt at queenrearing (whisky introduction)*

A method or remediating to "laying workers" colonies with alcohol.



> Method for remediating to "laying workers" colonies
> by Jean-Marie Van Dyck
> Namur, Belgium
> Laying workers are really a jinx in an apiary. They are even more annoying if you breed queens. When you destroy a "laying workers" colony in your apiary, don't think that the bees in it will perish. Apart from a few young bees that are still unable to fly, all bees, more or less individually, will look for a new habitat. And most will be accepted by the guardians of the neighbouring hives with a particular attitude.
> 
> Laying workers are also quite capable of flying, but few of them make it past the guard of established hives. However, they can enter a hive (mini-plus, apidea or other types), less well protected... and they kill the very young queens of these nuclei. The few pheromones emitted by these young queens, especially inseminates, do not yet protect them effectively enough.
> 
> Removal of a colony of laying workers
> It is obvious that a colony with only a few bees is not worth preserving. So shake them away from your farm, with an apiary at the established colonies. But it may be interesting to keep powerful colonies that have become orphaned and then buzzed.
> 
> For the past twenty years or so, I have been using a method, always with success. Only once was the introduced queen killed, but another queen was present, mea culpa! All my emulators, including Swedes, are unanimous: it works!
> 
> I found this method by experimenting with the procedure described by Dr. Wallon, and since then advocated by his disciples. Mr. Hector Wallon, a beekeeper and doctor, had developed and described a theory to explain the action of hypothetical substances he called sexoclasins. On buzzing colonies, he used the alcoholic extract of poppy eggs to promote the remeasurement of buzzing colonies (see La Belgique Apicole 25(3) 1961 pp.51-56).
> 
> The process I am proposing to you today, based on his experiences, is extremely simple. It requires no complicated equipment, no handling of frames or bees. What I am about to describe could be modified somewhat. One could probably be less strict about the queen's condition, or even use a virgin queen or royal cells. But it would be with less guarantee of satisfaction: executed as I describe it to you, the result is 100% guaranteed.
> 
> The necessary equipment
> 1)A colony without a queen with laying workers.
> 2)A laying queen, whatever her qualities, that is removed from her colony just before this treatment. It is not advisable to use a queen who has been travelling or stuck in a cage for a day or two. No importance on the qualities of this queen, but it is really preferable not to use a queen too young, whose egg laying is not well established (at least 2 months of egg-laying). Personally, I usually use some queens of one year or more that I keep for this purpose (queens giving bees to create nuclei). Unless she is a queen beating the longevity record, the oldest queen in the apiary is fine.
> 3)A queen's cage with a little candy.
> 4)A plastic bag of the suitable size to place point 5 into.
> 5)Two cartons, beer coasters, or equivalent absorbent paper that will be impregnated with the 6 below.
> 6)Alcohol from 20 to 40%, concentration does not seem to matter much, it works with simple alcohol, but also with Juniper, Gin, Schnaps, Whisky and other Bourbon or Cognac. You can also save a few drops for the operator, but this is not really essential to success.
> That's all, and therefore within everyone's reach.
> 
> The method to follow: this is exactly what I do...
> Work generally at the end of the day (I try, as much as possible, to handle bees at the end of the day).
> 
> Make sure that the colony IS QUEENLESS: if not, no problem, it will be the failure and loss of the introduced queen.
> Insert the laying queen (open cage opening flap) with a plug of about 10 to 15 mm of candy. The queen can be alone or accompanied by 4 or 5 young workers from her colony. This cage is kept warm (in my shirt pocket).
> Place two thick cardboards (such as beer cardboard or absorbent paper) in the small plastic bag. Pour 20 to 30 ml of the chosen alcohol into the plastic bag and allow the cardboard to soak well. (Don't drink the rest now, it's not over yet!)
> Open the laying workers colony, smoke gently, please (never smoke too much, by the way!).
> Place the well-soaked cardboards on top of the frames near the brood nest.
> A little smoke
> Pin the cage between two brood frames and between the cardboards.
> Close the hive. It's over now.
> It is possible to see the queen on her frame the next day, but I prefer to look just two days later. After a normal week of laying, you can do anything with this colony. But do not forget that there are very few young female workers left in this hive. The introduction of an emerging brood frame makes it possible to compensate for this.
> 
> So that's the process: very simple and guaranteed flawless if it is done correctly. Try it at the next opportunity and feel free to talk about it around you.
> 
> Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator


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