# Frame bottom bar - thick or thin?



## SB-Russ (Apr 10, 2015)

Looking to buy my first frames, and several of my local suppliers have frames listed with optional thick or thin bottoms, but I have no idea what the difference is. Can anyone explain this?

Thanks.
Russell.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Bottom bars are the weakest part of the frame. The thicker and wider it is the less likely it is to break.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

All the thick one costs in use is the space of row or so of comb cells the extra thickness takes up.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Make sure the frames you get are completely compatible with the foundation you will be using! I dont know what is common in Oz. Also of importance is whether the different dimension of bottom bar will influence proper bee space between upper and lower frames.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> Bottom bars are the weakest part of the frame. The thicker and wider it is the less likely it is to break.


Interesting. How many have you had that the bottom bar broke? What happened to cause it to break? I've never had a bottom bar break. Once comb is built into the frame, the bottom bar doesn't do a whole lot except to keep the end bars together. I think the end bars play a greater role in the frame and can be the weakest part.

Thick or thin bottom bar shouldn't change the bee space. It eats into the comb, not into the bee space above or below, unless of course the end bars aren't designed to accommodate the different thicknesses.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

I see it more in hives I inspect. The bees will attach the bottom bars to the frames or bottom board below them. Some beekeepers run a wire below the super prior to inspection to cut all the frame bottom bars loose. The latest bottom bars are thicker than the 3/4 by 3/8 of years ago. 7/16 thick by 3/4 are more common now. The bottom of an end bar is one inch so I make my bottom bars one by 3/8 not detracting from comb space or bee space.


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## SB-Russ (Apr 10, 2015)

Thanks for the info everyone. It seems a little odd to me to have the option if the difference is simply structural integrity. I'd have thought one optimal size that worked well would be sufficient. Is getting one extra row of comb a significant difference? Individual pricing is the same for each, although there's a 5% price difference in bulk purchases. 

As for foundation type, I am hoping to start foundationless. I realise it might be a bit tricky to get them starting correctly, but with frames from the Nucs I plan to purchase, and appropriate guide in the empty frames, I'm going to give it a shot. I was originally planning on plastic foundation in wooden frames, but options for plastic seem very limited here in Australia.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> The bees will attach the bottom bars to the frames or bottom board below them. Some beekeepers run a wire below the super prior to inspection to cut all the frame bottom bars loose.


Yes, attaching between chambers can happen, but I've not heard of the bar actually breaking from this. The 1/2 thick bar is more stout, and less likely to bend when attached to the top bars below with burr/brace comb.


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## SB-Russ (Apr 10, 2015)

So is there any general preference that most people go for, or it merely person opinion?


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## AndrewoftheEast (Mar 29, 2015)

Um I made my own frames and cut the bottom bar at a hair fatter than 3/8". I split a couple of them a bit nailing frames together and thought I'd switch to 1/2" bottom bars for the next batch. Does honey extracting ever damage frames as much as, say, an impatient beekeeper?


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I worked with a commercial and when they thumped boxes bottom bars would blow out. I make all my bottom bars 1/2" thick now. Surprising how much stronger they are than a 3/8" thick bar.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

What does "blow out" mean? Would the bar break in two? Did the bar break away from the end bar? For a bar to "break" from thumping boxes, you're going to have comb break loose from the top and end bars as well. Plastic foundation? Wax foundation? A lot of variables here.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Barry said:


> What does "blow out" mean?


The bars would typically break in the middle pulling comb and honey down with it. His words to describe it, not mine  I know he uses large cell wired foundation in his shallow honey boxes. I don't remember what the thumper did with the blow outs. I think he just stacked the boxes anyway and the broken frames got dealt with in the honey house.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

To the best of my knowledge, Dadant was the first to change to 1/2" bottom bars, to accommodate automated frame assembly.

We see no use for a thicker bottom bar in hand assembly, and feel that the thicker bar adds weight, while decreasing comb area. 

Crazy Roland


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Thicker top and bottom bars make less attachment between the boxes. But as long as the top bar is 7/8" or more it usually doesn't matter that much. But thicker bars make less comb. That's why Pierco and others have hardly any, but it's also why they get comb between the boxes.


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