# Trying single deeps and need tips please.



## challenger (May 27, 2009)

I lost a bunch of hives this year so I am going to try single deeps for honey production. I have drawn comb aplenty for deeps as well as drawn comb for the honey supers. 
I need the pitfalls of single deep honey production for the southeastern coastal area. I know that forage will not be a problem and I know I'll have to feed after pulling supers at the end of the flow. Currently my singles have ten frames and are full. They have 5-6 frames of brood both open and sealed and the rest of the frames are hatching or packed with honey and Polen. Should I remove the excess honey in the deeps and put in drawn comb for the Queen to lay in? How often do I check for swarming. Lastly what should I do with captured swarms? In the past I have taken them and sometimes just dumped them into hives I was getting honey from. This gave me the best honey year two years ago. Advice is greatly appreciated. This is new territory for me.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Are you using deeps for supers? If not, I can not advise.

Crazy Roland


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## mitch30 (Feb 8, 2014)

I would like to try run all deeps. Can you advise? 

Thanks,
Mitchel


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## Bee Nut (Oct 10, 2015)

Just curious why you want to keep them in one box if you have all of those resources? Give them a second deep of drawn comb and a super or two. The queen should lay the second brood chamber up and make it much easier for them to fill a super or two with honey. If the singles are full, it's time to add room. This early the queen needs room to lay in. If she runs out they will swarm. At her peak she can lay a full deep frame every two days. at the rate my queens have been laying, there is no way I could keep them in singles. Going into winter with singles is easy but keeping them in singles in spring is going to be tough.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

If the brood box is filled and it is Spring time, you might want to get some kind of second box on them soon, that is, before they swarm off.

Swarming signs to watch are back-filling nectar in the brood chamber, and high fly-out rates. If it gets to the point of having swarm cells, they are going to swarm - all you can do is divide them up.

I'd put a box on top of them - soon.


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

My hives are set up 1 deep, medium, queen excluder, honey supers. Pretty simple to manage. Going into winter I want the medium to be 80 percent honey. I winter with 1 deep, 1 medium. Right before flow I add.queen excluder then supers. I check for swarm cells every 10 days. Just lift up 1st medium and look at bottom bars. If hive is in swarm mode this is where the majority of cells will be. If I see cells then I go through every frame of deep. Pretty simple, I tried 2 deeps but top deep would be mostly honey and pollen.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Thanks. I already have a medium super or two on all hives. I don't normally use excludes but I did this year on top of the single deep hives. 
I can easily add a second deep of drawn comb but I want honey to go in the supers and not into the second deep. 
What about put in the Queen in the bottom with only drawn comb? Moving all brood into the second deep? As I said I want to maximize the honey in the medium supers. All hive bodies are deeps and all honey supers are mediums.


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## Bowfinger (Apr 17, 2015)

My area or situation may be different. I had a single deep building. I put an excluder on top and a partially undrawn Med. super. The deep continued to build and they drew out and began filling the Med. super. After a few weeks of this I decided to check the brood in the deep I had 6 or 8 queen cells. So, keep a check on the brood nest. I have been advised to keep a new frame in there to keep the deep (brood) from getting completely filled. I ended up taking out the queen and leaving 2 or 3 queen cells to keep from loosing this hive to swarm. Prob. about time to check on them again. The nucs I made with the queen and queen cells didn't work this time. The queen doesn't seem to be in the nuc. Now, I wonder if she returned to the hive ( do they do this.) 

I am interested in what folks say on this thread too.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If you are using a deep for a single brood chamber and mediums for supers, I can not assist you. If you wish to try all deeps on one hive, I can assist you on how to build a populace hive and avoid swarming issues.

Crazy Roland


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I'm all deeps, Roland. Always interested in your take. Or point me to another thread where you've detailed your approach. Thanks!


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Roland I would like to hear also. Down south our flows are not nearly as strong as yours and our winters are short and mild. Sweet clover can't grow in our acidic soils. All deeps work here its just simpler with deep and medium. Our bees here winter well with medium full of stores plus what they put in brood chamber.


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## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

Roland I am all ears for your sage advise I am always looking to try something new or a different spin


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Roland, are you advising to use a double queen set up then?

When the flow is on and the hive is honey bound then you
can extract the honey to make more room for the queen to lay in.
The queen will emerge in 2 weeks so go in there every 10-12 days
to check. When you catch a swarm then do it normally to hive them.
You have to have more equipment on hands to go big time later on.
When you dumped the swarm into the honey harvest hive there might
be a chance that the workers will balled the original queen. A rather
risky task I would not do unless you have many mated queens to replace
the dead queens. You might get more harvest but also might risk the
queen's life. How come there are many lost hives? And what do you plan
to prevent it from happening again in the future?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We use one deep, an excluder, then deep supers. Right now(dandelions just started), the hives with 3-4 frames of brood are still in one deep. The stronger hives have had a deep added above the excluder. When the bees occupy the super, frames of capped brood are shaken and "hung up", and empty drawn comb placed "downstairs", initially on the outsides of the brood nest. As the weather warms, and the hive grows, more frames can be rotated. We make the rounds every 14 days, so a frame of capped brood is hatched on the next visit, and can be exchanged for a capped frame. We often attain an exchange of 5 frames.

The idea is to always keep open frames in front of the queen. Some skill and experience, and an eye on the weather forecast, is needed to know just how far you can push them. Chilled brood is the sign that you went to far. 

We believe keeping open cells in front of the queen saves her time looking for the empty cells, hence higher peak populations.. With bees hatching above the excluder, there seems to be less pressure to swarm, even though more bees may be present. Because only one deep is used for wintering, there is less chance of feed getting in he honey because the hives are pretty empty right now. You can also harvest more honey than when using double deeps, and remove the goldenrod honey with high roughage content and replace with sugar water. 

Questions?

Crazy Roland


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Very interesting Roland. Questions. ..Do you use all deeps for supers above 2nd deep? Does the 14 day rotation keep the frames in 2nd deep/super from being backfilled with nectar? I have some swarm happy dark bees that are very good producers , this should help. Thanks Roland


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Roland said:


> ...When the bees occupy the super, frames of capped brood are shaken and "hung up", and empty drawn comb placed "downstairs", initially on the outsides of the brood nest...The idea is to always keep open frames in front of the queen...
> 
> Crazy Roland


Roland, is the moving of brood necessary to keep them from swarming, or is this really more aimed at increasing the rate of brood production? I ask because I believe I've heard from others who use the single deep without moving brood at regular intervals. I've also read that even the strongest colonies will rarely exceed 9 to 12 full frames of brood, no matter how strong they are.

Thanks,

Adam


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Roland, is the moving of brood necessary to keep them from swarming, or is this really more aimed at increasing the rate of brood production? I ask because I believe I've heard from others who use the single deep without moving brood at regular intervals. I've also read that even the strongest colonies will rarely exceed 9 to 12 full frames of brood, no matter how strong they are.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Adam


Did you read the entire post?



Roland said:


> We believe keeping open cells in front of the queen saves her time looking for the empty cells, hence higher peak populations.. With bees hatching above the excluder, there seems to be less pressure to swarm, even though more bees may be present. Because only one deep is used for wintering, there is less chance of feed getting in he honey because the hives are pretty empty right now. You can also harvest more honey than when using double deeps, and remove the goldenrod honey with high roughage content and replace with sugar water.
> 
> Questions?
> 
> Crazy Roland


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## WRLCPA (May 12, 2014)

Very interesting. I think I am experimenting with something very similar. I am using a 4 over 5 frame divided nuc setup for a two queen system. I put a Queen excluder over that and a deep super on top. The hive is exploding and the super is almost completely full already. Originally, I only left her the 5 frames in the divided deep and I think that may have caused a swarm or superseded. I added the second story late as a swarm preventer. Other than that, things look promising for this setup.

My one take away from Roland's post is the rotation of brood frames. I was going to remove them all together as the hive get to packed, but placing them above makes perfect sense. Thanks for that Roland!


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Roland, I like your post and your method. If you don'tmind iI will pm you with a question or three  
. 
Now I may sound like a bad bad man here but I'm posting this in order to provide proper thrediquette. Started this thread and made the title fairly clear I hope. I was hoping for some knowledgeable replies and I'm glad I've gotten a few so thanks to those that provided their methods attained through experience. 
Far far too many posts have been questions. These should be made through creating another thread. Posting questions are generally OK if they are directed at the OP AND they pertain to the specific subject in the OP. If I ask about getting honey from a single deep and I get replies having to do with anything other than the main subject makes for a confusing and time wasting thread. In addition to this the piled on hijacking in this thread makes me wonder if others have started similar threads but have not gotten the answers they wanted to hear? This is all extremely poor manners. It is very inconsiderate and selfish. This type of forum behavior is dim witted and irritating. It is like being in a nice conversation with someone and another person(s) walks up and "joins" the conversation by way of interrupting an injecting how their life is a bigger and better example of the topic at hand. As in, "hey! Let's talk about me!" Boorish and socially inept at best. 
Another forum and / or thread screw job is posting advice based on personal theory, unproven suspicion and/or knowledge gained through watching some of the many first year beekeeping experts that upload videos to youtube. Throwing out here say using small nuggets of Internet feces may make some feel intelligent and omnipotent but this behavior, much like the turd in the punch bowl described above, is easy to see through and adds nothing to anyone's life across the entire universe. Oh, and that does include the planet Earth to those that walk this road of, "knowledge without experience or education". 
I know many (most??) will read this and say, "this guy is a proper $%@#/@-+$). It would be difficult for me to argue this sentiment however my purpose is to educate on the basics of forum etiquette. Sorry if this is harsh. Pussy footing, gray areas, political correctness or not productive imo. 
Start your own threads, listen more than speak, think of others before yourself and consider the possibility that everything ever known in the past present and future just might not be in your own head.


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## brettj777 (Feb 27, 2013)

challenger said:


> I know many (most??) will read this and say, "this guy is a proper $%@#/@-+$). It would be difficult for me to argue this sentiment however my purpose is to educate on the basics of forum etiquette. Sorry if this is harsh. Pussy footing, gray areas, political correctness or not productive imo.


Yes, all of the above.

If you don't like how people respond, maybe people should just ignore your posts all together? If you are unsatisfied with the response...perhaps you should ask for your money back. Oh wait....you didn't pay anyone for their time, or experience....you just expected them to give it to you...then you complained you didn't like what you got.

:scratch:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Please direct any question to me in a PM.

Crazy Roland


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Guilty as charged. In my defense I will say that maybe I have a different perspective , I maybe wrong. When I make a post or ask a question I think of it as a community forum. I have no problem with others asking questions because I may learn from the answers given to them as well. Challenger I take no offense from your comments , like I said I may have this forum etiquette all wrong. I apologize and was not trying to hijack but while we had Rolands ear and he was willing to share knowledge , just rolling with it. Sorry I meant no offense and no offense taken. Getting back to the double deep.......Rolands management style looks to be alot better than when I tried the double deep. The second deep for brrod(without queen excluder) ended up by fall being mostly honey. Then spring having to extract to make empty comb available. That's why I switched to 1 deep 1 medium because fall the queen lays in deep and medium is full of honey which is more than enough for our winter.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I build my hives from singles into doubles, split, build into the second, then shake the queen down into the single separated with an excluder. You want to retain the same population space balance when managing singles in the spring as you would managing a double brood nest.
When the brood hatches out a few weeks later the bees sum backfill and we begin harvests.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Forum etiquette, ha ha, >>tip<< it's the side conversations you need to put all those tips together


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

challenger said:


> Now I may sound like a bad bad man here but I'm posting this in order to provide proper thrediquette.


Not only did you derail your own thread but put a screeching halt to further the topic of conversation! Hopefully Barry and other Beesource
appointees will comment on your views of "thrediquette" as I don't see it posted in the rules, faq, etc. 
It may not be to your liking ( or mine on many occasions) but it appears to me that all the posters to "your thread" used "common courtesy" and stayed on topic. Is this 'thrediquette' your creation?
Sure hope the leadership clarifies what is expected of posters, both OP's and respondents.


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## yousowise (Apr 14, 2011)

Ian, how many frames of brood are you looking for when you split your doubles? Also after you shake back down to a single with an excluder (I am guessing you do this when the main flow starts), do you get many swarms?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

challenger said:


> I lost a bunch of hives this year so I am going to try single deeps for honey production. I have drawn comb aplenty for deeps as well as drawn comb for the honey supers.
> I need the pitfalls of single deep honey production for the southeastern coastal area. I know that forage will not be a problem and I know I'll have to feed after pulling supers at the end of the flow. Currently my singles have ten frames and are full. They have 5-6 frames of brood both open and sealed and the rest of the frames are hatching or packed with honey and Polen. Should I remove the excess honey in the deeps and put in drawn comb for the Queen to lay in? How often do I check for swarming. Lastly what should I do with captured swarms? In the past I have taken them and sometimes just dumped them into hives I was getting honey from. This gave me the best honey year two years ago. Advice is greatly appreciated. This is new territory for me.


In my area, spring equinox to summer solstice is the strongest swarming season. After the summer solstice, the swarming pressure reduces quite a bit, but then, I don't get much flows after June either. Your location will help you determine your management.

When swarming pressure is greatest, removal of queen cells or removing the queen to a nuc and then pinching all queen cells but one may be needed (this would be a cut down split, I think it's called by some). Removing frames of honey for extraction or for stores frames to go with the cut down split may be needed, if moving the split to a full box instead of a nuc. Replace those frames with drawn comb or foundation frames will reduce swarming tendency as it gives the nurse bees in the nest work to do. I would say checking once a week as a weekly schedule works for most people, but every ten days would be great also, for checking swarm pressures in the hives. I would put any captured swarms into a deep of their own to get them established and evaluate their performance, especially after all my other hives have been up to strength, but dumping them in a weaker hive would work also, except I would be worried about the added queen.

I myself like to use two deeps until after fruit bloom is over, this way swarming pressure is reduced and I get greater populations in the hives, rather than using an excluder too early in the season. Then pull out any honey for extraction or making splits, and make everyone a single deep with excluder from then on, using management practices already mentioned above. Hope this helps, good luck to you.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Wow! . Thanks for the many great replies. This is a more complicated management technique than I originally thought. It doesn't seem too difficult but there is a lot more to it than just putting honey supers on top of a single deep. I've learned a lot. 
Rotating empty drawn brood frames into the box the queen is in seems to make great sense and maintaining an area with open comb for the queen does not seem like a huge amount of work considering the potential results of lots of brood, honey and swarm reduction. 
One big concern I have is about disrupting the bees every week to manipulate the frames. It's always been stressed that a hive takes a day or two to get back to normal after being smoked and opened. I've personally never believed this as I have never read any science supporting this claim AND I feel the drive that the bees have to do what they do would make them get back to it a lot quicker than 24-48 hours. As always, I may be wrong in my assumption so I'll look for confirmation that I am??? 
Thanks again. My hives will be managed the way Roland and others do. I have a couple that are ready for a Second double which I'll stack on instead of a medium honey super. 
BTW, someone mentioned dumping swarms into established hives. I may have mentioned that this is something I've done and may do again. It does really boost the honey production. I've done this maybe a dozen times and have never lost a queen from doing so although I can't say for sure the original queen was the same queen a week later?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

yousowise said:


> Ian, how many frames of brood are you looking for when you split your doubles? Also after you shake back down to a single with an excluder (I am guessing you do this when the main flow starts), do you get many swarms?


Around here I'm looking for 3-4 brood frames which will fill that box with bees. Add a second to allow her to continue to stretch her legs and promote expansion upwards for a few weeks then before too much surplus begins to store upwards, move her down for the rest of the year. The bottom will be empty underneath by that time which gives her enough.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Roland said:


> We use one deep, an excluder, then deep supers. Right now(dandelions just started), the hives with 3-4 frames of brood are still in one deep. The stronger hives have had a deep added above the excluder. When the bees occupy the super, frames of capped brood are shaken and "hung up", and empty drawn comb placed "downstairs", initially on the outsides of the brood nest. As the weather warms, and the hive grows, more frames can be rotated. We make the rounds every 14 days, so a frame of capped brood is hatched on the next visit, and can be exchanged for a capped frame. We often attain an exchange of 5 frames.
> 
> The idea is to always keep open frames in front of the queen. Some skill and experience, and an eye on the weather forecast, is needed to know just how far you can push them. Chilled brood is the sign that you went to far.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation. Those of us who treat with apivar in the rotation can't really follow that path but yours is an elegant old school solution. Keeping that capped brood away from the queen must also inhibit swarming.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Roland, do you locate the queen in the bottom before moving capped brood up?
Thanks to a few swarms from the last 1-2 weeks I've been able to apply this technique to 5 hives. I had a few that had 8+ frames of brood so I moved the youngest brood frames up. I figured a few of the frames of capped brood would be hatching and free up some frames. I was obviously working with just the single deep and got to thinking about what I need to do next time to make sure I don't move the queen up with a brood frame. I figured I could shake every frame before moving but this is a little risky and even more disruptive. So, do I take the time to find the queen? 
What do you do in the instances where you find swarm cells despite this technique? I didn't find any but if I found even one with an egg or larvae in it I'd be tempted to split the hive. 
Thanks


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

*Single deeps recipe for honey production.*

As a comm. honey producer. I only use singles for production and start with packages every year. 
The recipe is one deep box of feed and 2# package mid March-to early April. Shake in fast, ad queen excluder and a super (repeat 1000+ times). At 2-3 weeks, check queens and ad more feed. At 5-6 weeks start pulling brood for splits for more production hive or nucs for sale and ad more FEED. At 8-9 weeks adding two to four more supers. At week 12-15 start pulling honey and hope you can keep up. 7 year avg. is 137 pounds.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

The Honey Householder said:


> As a comm. honey producer. I only use singles for production and start with packages every year.
> The recipe is one deep box of feed and 2# package mid March-to early April. Shake in fast, ad queen excluder and a super (repeat 1000+ times). At 2-3 weeks, check queens and ad more feed. At 5-6 weeks start pulling brood for splits for more production hive or nucs for sale and ad more FEED. At 8-9 weeks adding two to four more supers. At week 12-15 start pulling honey and hope you can keep up. 7 year avg. is 137 pounds.




Wow! That's great production. This is an example of different results for different areas of the country I'm sure. 
I don't know of any packages available before mid March. I also know that in my area a 3# package is $105.00. Between the costs to start this type of operation and out maximum 8 week (more like 6) major flow we wouldn't be able to build up bees for a nearly 200 pound per hive honey yield. This is all just first impression hearing g your method so I'm missing most of the details. 
Why do you not winter over any hives? Is it just too cold?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We shake the bees off of the frames of brood before hanging up.

We are on a 12-14 day cycle, not weekly.

What is a swarm cell?

Crazy Roland


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Using the same system like Roland and it is doing magic on the bees. I use it in different types of hives. The only difference is, I use foundation and no drawn comb as replacement. Keeps the bees building and in a good mood. Also prevents too much pollen in the broodnest. Drawn combs are drained out for nucs. 

@Roland: in a single 12 frame deep you can use a vertical (!) queen excluder to hang the capped broodcombs to the side of the broodnest instead up into the super. In an eight frame hive I put them up, too, for simplicity. But in a 12 frame Dadant deep I put the capped broodcombs about to emerge(!) to the side behind an vertical excluder (you can buy these ready to use here).

It is probably necessary to highlight, that only capped brood close to the emerging point should be moved, since the chilling of brood can cause a lot of trouble. Including breeding varroa. Varroa loves lower temperatures in the broodnest.


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## Outdoor N8 (Aug 7, 2015)

This management principle reminds me of a breeder hives frame rotation, but on a larger scale. Or am I misinterpreting?

I have two hives right now that I would love to start this on and try the outcome. Would you proceed as normal if you only have foundation to work with? 
Do you employ/recommend an upper entrance as a work around for the QE?
Thanks for sharing.


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## skyscraper (Aug 29, 2016)

*Re: Single deeps recipe for honey production.*



The Honey Householder said:


> As a comm. honey producer. I only use singles for production and start with packages every year.
> The recipe is one deep box of feed and 2# package mid March-to early April. Shake in fast, ad queen excluder and a super (repeat 1000+ times). At 2-3 weeks, check queens and ad more feed. At 5-6 weeks start pulling brood for splits for more production hive or nucs for sale and ad more FEED. At 8-9 weeks adding two to four more supers. At week 12-15 start pulling honey and hope you can keep up. 7 year avg. is 137 pounds.


Do you think you would average more honey per hive if you didn't split during build up? 

How do you keep a package fed for 3 weeks without checking on them (what kind of feeder)?

I'm guessing you're taking 100% of their honey, except maybe a frame for each nuc or two?

Are you putting them in hives with foundation, or empty comb?


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## skyscraper (Aug 29, 2016)

*Re: Single deeps recipe for honey production.*

How early are you getting packages before your local flow starts?



> Honey Householder...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Single deeps recipe for honey production.*



The Honey Householder said:


> As a comm. honey producer.... and 2# package mid March-to early April....


Here is your answer!
Maybe after the almond run.


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## skyscraper (Aug 29, 2016)

*Re: Single deeps recipe for honey production.*



beepro said:


> Here is your answer!
> Maybe after the almond run.


He appears to say the flow starts 10-12 weeks after adding the package, that seems really late to me. I'm trying to figure out if that's true. 
The problem for me is flow here can start as early as late March, and it's almost impossible to get a package before mid March.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Single deeps recipe for honey production.*

Yes, you are right. The timing is a bit off from ours but might match his because we
don't know his bee environment. Maybe a late bloom or he take his bees to follow
the flow around. He needs to give a thorough explanation so we will understand.


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