# Proximity of Resources in Finisher



## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

It's a golden rule.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I understand it's optimal, I just wonder how crucial it is, given bees if left to their own devices will build cells throughout a hive and not necessarily where it is most convenient to get to stores. Perhaps that is my interpretation of their cell building, though. Would it be too late to add the pollen now? Would there be any benefit? Again, graft was done on 7/5, moved to finisher 7/6.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

Queens carry on eating the royal jelly stored in the cells once its capped, so there must be more than enough for proper development and this must be stored before the cell is capped. There is still time to increase this stored royal jelly. To produce royal jelly the nurse bees need a lot of pollen and since they don't move pollen it needs to be placed next to the queen cells. It's late but not too late. With just three cells who can say if it will definitely make a difference but you want the best queens you can rear so to me its worth doing and as soon as possible.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Thanks Stephen. It was one of those "duh" revelations I had today after thinking about it. Complete oversight. Going to go grab some pollen.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

If it is any consolation, I do not move pollen frames in my finishers. I use three story queen right finishers. The boxes are 5 frame boxes, so three story nucs. I do put young open brood on either side of the cells in the top box and can rotate cells through them every 4-5 days depending on how long they are left in the starter.

Once the cells are sealed, the larva/pre-pupa only feeds a little longer until it spins its cocoon.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

JSL said:


> If it is any consolation, I do not move pollen frames in my finishers. I use three story queen right finishers. The boxes are 5 frame boxes, so three story nucs. I do put young open brood on either side of the cells in the top box and can rotate cells through them every 4-5 days depending on how long they are left in the starter.
> 
> Once the cells are sealed, the larva/pre-pupa only feeds a little longer until it spins its cocoon.


Thanks for that. I did move pollen to the cells, which appeared in great shape, each with a generous pool of jelly available by my estimation. This is not surprising however considering they are the only 3 cells on a full size TBH with lots of young bees. Exciting stuff. In the past, I have always used emergency or swarm cells, so I suppose for a first attempt to see any success was a good attempt. I think these cells will make some fine queens.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I don't think you have to worry about 3 cells getting fed, especially if there is any kind of flow as long as they are strategically placed. I've had strong mating nucs knock off the queen cell given them and make 8 or 9 nice cells on their own. I don't think they were strapped for resources or there would have been a lessor effort. The serious queen producers are producing large numbers in one go. They need to take the trouble of a starter and a strong finisher and making sure it is well provisioned. 

I've recently done a 5 frame nuc starter/finisher with lots of bees using a cut cells. They started about 30 cells that I reduced to about 15. Some of the bees used were on open brood so were primed for action. They turned out quite nice with good returns. They also had a decent cohort of foragers as it started out as a failed mating nuc.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

lharder said:


> I don't think you have to worry about 3 cells getting fed, especially if there is any kind of flow as long as they are strategically placed. I've had strong mating nucs knock off the queen cell given them and make 8 or 9 nice cells on their own. I don't think they were strapped for resources or there would have been a lessor effort. The serious queen producers are producing large numbers in one go. They need to take the trouble of a starter and a strong finisher and making sure it is well provisioned.
> 
> I've recently done a 5 frame nuc starter/finisher with lots of bees using a cut cells. They started about 30 cells that I reduced to about 15. Some of the bees used were on open brood so were primed for action. They turned out quite nice with good returns. They also had a decent cohort of foragers as it started out as a failed mating nuc.


I may try a starter/finisher next year come spring, but don't really have the resources available to keep one going at the moment as we are in a bit of a dearth. I essentially robbed a strong hive for my starter, fed them 1:1 along with pollen, nectar, emerging brood and after 24 hrs. gave them the combs back along with the bees and cells. I am making these queens for someone else, but might keep one for myself. 15 cells on a 5 frame seems to me an excellent return for the investment. How much of a difference do you think the foragers made? How boiling over with bees was it?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

In my recent post about the grafted cells experiment on the pollen frames, there
is a huge difference on the cell's development that turn out to be great queens
in the future. You can read it up on the queen forum here.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Nordak said:


> I may try a starter/finisher next year come spring, but don't really have the resources available to keep one going at the moment as we are in a bit of a dearth. I essentially robbed a strong hive for my starter, fed them 1:1 along with pollen, nectar, emerging brood and after 24 hrs. gave them the combs back along with the bees and cells. I am making these queens for someone else, but might keep one for myself. 15 cells on a 5 frame seems to me an excellent return for the investment. How much of a difference do you think the foragers made? How boiling over with bees was it?





Nordak said:


> I may try a starter/finisher next year come spring, but don't really have the resources available to keep one going at the moment as we are in a bit of a dearth. I essentially robbed a strong hive for my starter, fed them 1:1 along with pollen, nectar, emerging brood and after 24 hrs. gave them the combs back along with the bees and cells. I am making these queens for someone else, but might keep one for myself. 15 cells on a 5 frame seems to me an excellent return for the investment. How much of a difference do you think the foragers made? How boiling over with bees was it?


So far I haven't kept them going. I will often recycle the bees from failed mating nucs (made from 2 medium frames of bees and brood) and supplement. So its almost never the same from time to time. I will split up the nuc that is making the queens and let the 2 halves each get a queen mated. In this last case I stocked a failed nuc with bees and brood and a couple of frames of food making it a 10 framer 2 story nuc One of the frames of brood was open brood. On the day I gave them cut cells to make queens, I took condensed them into one box leaving one frame of capped brood 2 frames of food, 1 empty space for them to make comb, and one slot for the cells. It was very well populated, but not insanely so. But they had nothing to look after except for those cells which they jumped on immediately. After a couple of days with the cells started, I gave them another box with bee and brood and empty frames. This just because a 5 frame box with lots of bees may overheat in our weather. I had lots of comb production to the point I had look carefully to discern where the cells were, which to me is an indication that the hive is well fed, hence the importance of foragers in a flow. 

Now in my latest attempt, I had very good returns for the queens and didn't have lots of resources to make one up, just a couple frames of bees and brood. So I went and gathered brood and bees from an outyard including the frames I was going to cut cells from. Into a box with a frame of capped brood, 3 frames of food, I shook all the bees off the brood and gave the brood to my home hives after cutting my cells. I put that 5 framer on top of a hive with a top entrance (well I put a snelgrove board on so I could give the big hive and alternative way out) and diverted the big hives foragers to this setup. Completely packed with bees. After a day I checked them. Clearly on the cells but so many bees that I couldn't tell how many. I then expanded them into 2 frame boxes, giving them some empty space to make some comb and for thermoregulation. When the cells are capped I'll move the starter/finisher giving the big hive its foragers back. My biggest worry, so many bees that gravity rips my cut cells off the strips they are waxed to. 

Last year was my first attempt to raise some queens. I wasted time and resources early in the season with too big of setups. The density wasn't high enough and not so many cells started and not so high quality. By thinking small, I'm having much better success. Also always having a place for bees to go after a process. Everything gets recycled back into the apiary. 

Still lots to learn


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

lharder said:


> So far I haven't kept them going. I will often recycle the bees from failed mating nucs (made from 2 medium frames of bees and brood) and supplement. So its almost never the same from time to time. I will split up the nuc that is making the queens and let the 2 halves each get a queen mated. In this last case I stocked a failed nuc with bees and brood and a couple of frames of food making it a 10 framer 2 story nuc One of the frames of brood was open brood. On the day I gave them cut cells to make queens, I took condensed them into one box leaving one frame of capped brood 2 frames of food, 1 empty space for them to make comb, and one slot for the cells. It was very well populated, but not insanely so. But they had nothing to look after except for those cells which they jumped on immediately. After a couple of days with the cells started, I gave them another box with bee and brood and empty frames. This just because a 5 frame box with lots of bees may overheat in our weather. I had lots of comb production to the point I had look carefully to discern where the cells were, which to me is an indication that the hive is well fed, hence the importance of foragers in a flow.
> 
> Now in my latest attempt, I had very good returns for the queens and didn't have lots of resources to make one up, just a couple frames of bees and brood. So I went and gathered brood and bees from an outyard including the frames I was going to cut cells from. Into a box with a frame of capped brood, 3 frames of food, I shook all the bees off the brood and gave the brood to my home hives after cutting my cells. I put that 5 framer on top of a hive with a top entrance (well I put a snelgrove board on so I could give the big hive and alternative way out) and diverted the big hives foragers to this setup. Completely packed with bees. After a day I checked them. Clearly on the cells but so many bees that I couldn't tell how many. I then expanded them into 2 frame boxes, giving them some empty space to make some comb and for thermoregulation. When the cells are capped I'll move the starter/finisher giving the big hive its foragers back. My biggest worry, so many bees that gravity rips my cut cells off the strips they are waxed to.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the detail. Sounds like you have done quite well this year, and your methods make sense.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beepro said:


> In my recent post about the grafted cells experiment on the pollen frames, there
> is a huge difference on the cell's development that turn out to be great queens
> in the future. You can read it up on the queen forum here.


Will give it a read. Thanks.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I use the plastic cups rather than the cut cells method.
This way it is easier to remove the cells into their mating nucs.
And since these cells are transplanted right into the comb the bees
will regulate and attached the cells to the frame comb so that they will not be rip off.
Another advantage of not using the cell bar to grow these cells. Tomorrow should be the
day to check on these cells on the pollen frame. By then they should all be cap if the bee schedule is right.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beepro said:


> I use the plastic cups rather than the cut cells method.
> This way it is easier to remove the cells into their mating nucs.
> And since these cells are transplanted right into the comb the bees
> will regulate and attached the cells to the frame comb so that they will not be rip off.
> ...


That's what my math is telling me as well. I should move them to mating nucs on 7/14, correct?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

The second day after grafting I had a look at my latest attempt. Alas some of the strips fell off. However, I have managed to get 4 queen cells on the top bar (where I lost most of strips) some doubles. and 11 queens on the bottom bar some doubles. I culled some leaving about 20. I will put some double queen cells in some of the mating nucs. Nice form of back up. 

I think next year I will modify the queen cup frame so that the mass of bees can hang off of the empty bar, fill that in with comb without affecting the cells. This might be my last queen rearing attempt this year depending on the mating success and quality of queens in process.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

lharder said:


> The second day after grafting I had a look at my latest attempt. Alas some of the strips fell off. However, I have managed to get 4 queen cells on the top bar (where I lost most of strips) some doubles. and 11 queens on the bottom bar some doubles. I culled some leaving about 20. I will put some double queen cells in some of the mating nucs. Nice form of back up.
> 
> I think next year I will modify the queen cup frame so that the mass of bees can hang off of the empty bar, fill that in with comb without affecting the cells. This might be my last queen rearing attempt this year depending on the mating success and quality of queens in process.


I also used plastic cups like beepro, cheap transparent green ones, a thousand of them for like 5 bucks. I waxed them to the bar (3/4") and the bees attached further with wax. Pretty solid. This was basically a test to see if I could graft. Out of 6 cups, trying to use the youngest of larvae, I got 1 of 6 to take. The day I checked for acceptance, decided to try again on slightly older larvae, so quickly placed two in cups on the same bar with the accepted cell. Next day, both had been accepted. I need to work on my grafting skills, but all appear to be developing at approximately the same rate. Will pull them 10 days from the first graft and place into nucs. Do you think that's a safe bet?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Just check your bee math. I'm no expert and have been struggling with mating success myself (getting better). But generally, from what I've read, a cell is least sensitive during and immediately after capping, or 1 or 2 days before she emerges. That middle period is to be avoided. 10 days after grafting from my finger counting puts them in that vulnerable period. I think its generally preferable to wait 1 or 2 days before emerging as mating nucs just kinda sit there until the queen emerges. So you are gathering resources a week early from other hives, when they can be more efficiently used in parent colonies. Whenever you end up placing, treat that queen cell gently. 

I've been doing my countdowns from capping times as I don't have perfect info on larva age.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

lharder said:


> Just check your bee math. I'm no expert and have been struggling with mating success myself (getting better). But generally, from what I've read, a cell is least sensitive during and immediately after capping, or 1 or 2 days before she emerges. That middle period is to be avoided. 10 days after grafting from my finger counting puts them in that vulnerable period. I think its generally preferable to wait 1 or 2 days before emerging as mating nucs just kinda sit there until the queen emerges. So you are gathering resources a week early from other hives, when they can be more efficiently used in parent colonies. Whenever you end up placing, treat that queen cell gently.
> 
> I've been doing my countdowns from capping times as I don't have perfect info on larva age.


Thanks again, lharder. I'll check to see if they're capped tomorrow, maybe get some pics. I will treat them like my first born when I move them.  I have some cell protectors, so I think this will help when embedding in the comb. I am already looking forward to Spring, as I think these might be the first and last I try this year. Don't really want to expend the resources this time of year.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Any extra comb attached to the cell is very useful to get things attached. When I cut cells I give myself lots to work with. You could even use a tooth pick to help embed it. I shoulda used that trick to get cells in the heart of the brood comb when things were colder earlier this spring. Would have had better success. This time of year its warmer, so am having good success with cells placed between 2 top bars.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

QC's are definitely capped, and while looking somewhat runty, are otherwise in good condition. Next time I will build a much stronger finisher. Bad time of the year to try for some queens.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Over here if they don't extend the RJ to at least 1" pass the green plastic cup I
will not take those runty queens. They are a lot different than the RJ richly raised well
fed queens. Yes, the only way to get these large long cells is to make a stronger finisher on
just the pollen/nectar frames alone. And the season does not matter as long as the workers are
well fed with patty subs and honey water or syrup. We're in a summer dearth now but I can still get
some well fed cells. It has to do with the technique you use rather than the time of the year.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm calling this a test run. The cups were completely filled, obviously I can't see past them, so couldn't tell you how much jelly extends past it. Still learning. This thread has given me some ideas for next year, though. Thanks to all.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I just checked my cells before I gather resources for each of them. I have 12 cells, with about half with doubles. I think I lost a couple more strips but really I didn't need 15 anyway. 

These are the biggest cells that the bees have produced. Huge. Very pleased. Be interesting to see if I can tell any difference in the queen size compared to my other attempts


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

That's exciting news. Congratulations, lharder. Sounds like you will have some fine queens primed and ready for next year. I am going to research your methods further to see if I can emulate your success as I am not so resource heavy to implement a lot of the techniques I've read about.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Let's see if we can compare the queen cell size.
Would you post some of your cap cells pics for us
to see? I like mine too because they are the emergency grafted cells.
I kept the finisher hive well fed with the pollen/nectar frames and the grafted 
cells on them.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

You know I haven't taken a picture in years. But I have some friends coming through and are going to help me a bit placing the queen cells. I know they have a cell phone so will try to get some pictures posted with a reference for size.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Nordak said:


> That's exciting news. Congratulations, lharder. Sounds like you will have some fine queens primed and ready for next year. I am going to research your methods further to see if I can emulate your success as I am not so resource heavy to implement a lot of the techniques I've read about.


I wish somebody told me about appropriate scale last year. Maybe they did but it didn't compute. Perhaps part of the problem is that I didn't really understand (and still don't) what the resources on hand could actually support. Only by trying stuff does one gain understanding. With more experience, one becomes a little smarter about what to try...hopefully

I still feel I'm pushing the bees too hard this year. The next trick is getting the nucs up to overwintering size. They need to fill 2 5 frame medium boxes but preferably 3. My first ones this year are filling 3 5 frame medium boxes. What I do is remove a frame from full boxes and give it to newer and weaker nucs to get them up to speed. So a hive that has completely filled its 3 boxes I will remove a comb from each box. It also allows me to see the state of the flow. With a flow they will build comb fast. Once the comb building slows, I am prepared to supplement feed (have feeders built if I need them) and keep the ball rolling. Last year the nucs lost a chunk of August because I wasn't prepared. The stronger nucs were robbing and setting back weaker ones.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

lharder said:


> I wish somebody told me about appropriate scale last year. Maybe they did but it didn't compute. Perhaps part of the problem is that I didn't really understand (and still don't) what the resources on hand could actually support. Only by trying stuff does one gain understanding. With more experience, one becomes a little smarter about what to try...hopefully
> 
> I still feel I'm pushing the bees too hard this year. The next trick is getting the nucs up to overwintering size. They need to fill 2 5 frame medium boxes but preferably 3. My first ones this year are filling 3 5 frame medium boxes. What I do is remove a frame from full boxes and give it to newer and weaker nucs to get them up to speed. So a hive that has completely filled its 3 boxes I will remove a comb from each box. It also allows me to see the state of the flow. With a flow they will build comb fast. Once the comb building slows, I am prepared to supplement feed (have feeders built if I need them) and keep the ball rolling. Last year the nucs lost a chunk of August because I wasn't prepared. The stronger nucs were robbing and setting back weaker ones.


Looking forward to hearing the outcome, keep me updated. I still have much to learn, and this experience has taught me a lot already. I am still sorting out the resource issue as well, ebbs and flows. I also set my bees back this year due to poor early management. Lucky for me, these bees are pretty forgiving of my mishaps.

I went ahead and made mating nucs up today to transfer cells tomorrow. Gave me a chance to practice some spacial management I've been meaning to get to by robbing from some strong hives and giving them back empties from weaker hives not utilizing them.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm trying to overwinter as many mated queens as I can both the
old and new one. To accomplish this task 2 queens are divided on 2
frames each in a 5 frame nuc hive. These are the first year queen but still
a bit young. The prolific laying machine queen I put her with the donated
resources from these removed queens. The removed queens are already evaluated
for their performance and hive maintenance. This way I can house the many queens I have now for
expansion and replacement later on. In a sense the 5 frame nucs are supporting the production hives and
vise versa. After the vsh queens got mated and return I will have more of these 2 frames nucs to play with.
And they will become next season's production hive's queens. The ones that expand the fastest with the most
organized hives will either be the future breeders or production queens. How you plan for expansion and contraction
will be an important part in growing your apiary in the future.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I don't quite understand. How big are your overwintered nucs?

Zone 5 to 6a here depending on the yard. I imagine you can get away with smaller overwintered nuc sizes compared to here.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Over here we have very mild winter.
This year I will try to overwinter them in a 2-4 frames nuc set up with
a side-by-side 2 queens screened system. And then feed them the patty
subs and Lauri's sugar bricks. If things work out then I will have more queens
for expansion early next Spring. And will have replacement in case some queens did
not make it over the winter. Yep, our winter and yours are very much different. I'm taking
advantage of what mother nature can provide here.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I placed those queen cells today. Put veils on some guests of mine and they proved quite useful moving frames, lids etc around in addition to documenting with photos. I should get them emailed to me soon. I put a measuring tape on the cell frames and most cells were getting close to the 1.5 inch mark. Took photos so will see if my eyesight and memory are wildly off the mark.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Had 2 of 3 hatch into my mating nucs today. One of the queens hatched in my hand, pretty cool. The cell that didn't hatch had a small opening that was chewed in the very end of the cap. It appeared the bees were trying to remove her. I opened the cell up, and she appeared to be almost fully developed, but was not moving. Not sure what happened. The other two appear to be healthy and in great shape. The cell I watched hatch had RJ still in the cup, so I think these queens will do fine, assuming they can get mated. I'm calling my first attempt at grafting a pretty good success considering my lack of experience. Can't wait for Spring to try again.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Testing trying to attach photos















Ok it looks like its going to work. Here are the cells from my last attempt. 12 cells were placed from this.

These were made from comb strips attached by wax to the bars. You can see some of them have fallen off but to my eyes the cells look pretty good, and were just what I needed.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Those are nice! Congratualtions. Hoping in Spring to have some that look that good. Thanks to you and other members sharing their wisdom, I have a better idea going forward.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You don't have to look forward on next Spring time to do this. Use the
pollen frames cell raised method that I just posted here. 
Try it to see if during the summer dearth that you can also raised these
great looking strong queens. 2 year results are in using this process.
Let me know if you like it!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beepro said:


> You don't have to look forward on next Spring time to do this. Use the
> pollen frames cell raised method that I just posted here.
> Try it to see if during the summer dearth that you can also raised these
> great looking strong queens. 2 year results are in using this process.
> Let me know if you like it!


I am considering perhaps a small run soon, still on the fence. I guess I need to make up my mind sooner than later.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, if you already have enough young queens for next Spring expansion then
you don't need that many mated queens now. The more extra queens I can
overwinter the more options I have for the replacement and making early nucs and
splits in the Spring time here.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I had a look at those queens today. 10 of 12 had eggs. The queens I saw were very nice, but not obviously nicer than those I raised earlier this year. I always seem to lose one or 2 at this point as well.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Excellent. I checked my 2 queens from grafting today, both mine have started laying as well. They appear to be in great shape visually, quite a bit darker than the queens raised from splits earlier in the year. Hopefully they draw out nice patterns.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I still have time to make one maybe 2 more rounds of 
making the after the solstice queens in a similar bee environment like
yours. This time I will be using the new Cordovan queen for the cells.
Will see how it will end up this time. My newly mated queens are laying too and
somewhat darker than the early Spring raised queens. Not sure why?


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