# Foundationless woes



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

What lesson did you learn?

deknow


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

^Was about to say that.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Bees make drones for a reason. Abnormal numbers/out of balance suggests something to me.


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## cpm (Mar 8, 2011)

When is the number of drones abnormal? I think natural comb implies that you'll let the hive decide how many drones it needs. Things will go back to normal when they have reached that level. Unless that hive has a drone layer.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

cpm said:


> When is the number of drones abnormal? I think natural comb implies that you'll let the hive decide how many drones it needs. Things will go back to normal when they have reached that level. Unless that hive has a drone layer.


It's not from a drone laying queen. Lesson learned was with a question mark. I was trying to infer that going foundationless was a bad idea. I just don't understand why every single hive that I've put empty frames in has drawn drone comb. Also I'm curious what I need to do to rectify the issue. Should I cull the comb? This is an after thought, also will the bees alter the size of the cells once they have been drawn. If they have drawn out to many drone cells and are in need of worker cells will they reconstruct the cells that are already drawn smaller or will they need new frames to redraw?


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## johnth78 (May 26, 2012)

My hives are currently in this same process


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## cpm (Mar 8, 2011)

I think they all draw drone comb because previously they all had artificially low number of drones. If you cull it, they'll just keep building more. Let them produce as many drones as they need - then they'll go back to producing workers.


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## wadehump (Sep 30, 2007)

They will draw what they need and want and only the bees know what they need and want.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Well thank you everyone for your replies. I feel better about the decision after reading this thread. I guess I'll trudge on and keep feeding the bees empty frames until they start drawing worker comb. Cold weather is going to start setting in here in about 2 months and there's a serious dearth going on right now (although frames are still being dawn out) so we'll see how things progress. I made up 36 Nucs today that have 3 frames of drawn foundation and 2 frames that are foundationless. I'd like to get the nucs on 100% foundationless before the cold weather sets in but that might be a bit ambitious. I'll keep you guys in the loop if you're curious.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

deknow said:


> What lesson did you learn?deknow


I learned not to jump on and believe in every new bandwagon being proposed to us internet reading beekeepers, only dabble in it experimentally, not listen to the latest up and coming beekeeping website/book authors who have something to sell, and stick with methods time tested for 150 years .


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## jamesjr (Feb 18, 2011)

Moon said:


> So I'm starting to jump on the natural cell size band wagon and I'm starting to wonder if it was such a good idea or not. Currently I have everything on MannLake rite cell foundation and I'm beginning to regress the bees by putting in foundationless frames in between drawn frames. The frames are being drawn out beautifully straight, however, EVERY single one of them is drone cell sized. I'm really starting to wonder and question whether or not this was a good idea. I have drones everywhere because they are drawing the cells out drone sized. I'm going to be really bummed if I have to buy 50 packages next year to replace the losses due to the regressing. Lesson learned?


I had intended to use foundationless, and with my first year under my belt, began adding foundationless to my hives. That I know of, I followed foundationless "best practices," meaning: starter strips, a ladder frame, full supers foundationless on almost perfectly level hives. Read the books of the natural masters. Read the blogs and posts of the rightous. 

Two results: 1. Comb that was poker straight, but just a little bit at an angle because it's impossible to have perfectly level hives. Caused a mess when pulling frames that ripped against each other and soaked lower frames with honey, and (2) drone comb everywhere. I mean everywhere. Huge drone comb I could put my finger in. 

I'm sharing just to add my experience, but it was equally poor, and I studied this from every angle. I kept reading that it was easy, let the bees build what they need, that in the end it will all work out fine, but my hives suffered. The result was very poor, no matter how you measure it. For me and my bees. 

Good luck, I'm still a beek and still learning, enjoying!


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## NorthernIllinoisPlumber (Aug 17, 2010)

I alternate my frames to keep them straight in the brood area. I also throw some frames with starter strips in the supers to get some cut comb as well. 

As far as the drone comb, take the advice given...the bees will work it out. 

Good luck!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

wadehump said:


> They will draw what they need and want and only the bees know what they need and want.


I'm going to respectfully disagree with this thesis and I'll tell you why. This is addressed to no specific person, only the thesis.

In a truly natural hive, in a tree hollow or under a rock somewhere, all the comb is built largely in one pass. The hive builds the broodnest first and surrounds it with drone and honey comb. Those combs do not get moved. There is no inserting empty frames to be drawn out. That's the fundamental catch with the 'what the bees want' thesis.

You'll find it works far better for some than others. It works well for Michael Bush for instance. But he rarely moves his comb. He deals with hives by the box, not by the frame.

The bees don't know 'what they want' because the hive keeps changing. Therefore what they give you and what you want are two different things. Because it's not necessarily what they want either. They are responding to a stimulus the only way they know how. The fact that they're not doing what you think they should is the most obvious evidence that your expectations and theories are incorrect and they need to change.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Unless that hive has a drone layer. 
That was one of my points. Drone layer, laying workers, and if you see a lot of drones all of a sudden you may have a new/virgin queen and visiting drones. Actually, none of which are a result of drone comb amounts. Just an observation.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

odfrank said:


> I learned not to jump on and believe in every new bandwagon being proposed to us internet reading beekeepers, only dabble in it experimentally, not listen to the latest up and coming beekeeping website/book authors who have something to sell, and stick with methods time tested for 150 years .


The experience the OP is having is exactly as one would expect. The bees will draw worker comb when they need worker comb. They will draw drone comb when they need drones. They will draw drone sized honeycomb if they need room for incoming nectar (less wax/lb of honey stored). A nuc will probably be more likely to draw worker comb this time of year (it feels the need to raise more workers)...but if your full sized hives are full of worker comb (especially if it isn't all being used), they will likely want to draw a bunch of drone comb, and a bunch of honey comb for incoming stores...why would they make more worker comb?

This "author" put this information in the book...and posts it here regularly....and I'm curious what you think anyone who promotes standard frames (from any supplier) with Popsicle sticks as comb guides is "trying to sell"? Popsicles?

deknow


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Rick 1456 said:


> Unless that hive has a drone layer.
> That was one of my points. Drone layer, laying workers, and if you see a lot of drones all of a sudden you may have a new/virgin queen and visiting drones. Actually, none of which are a result of drone comb amounts. Just an observation.


I don't miraculously have fifty drone laying hives in the matter of a week. All of the hives I've inserted empty frames in have drawn the empty frames out as drone comb. Not trying to be dismissive of your suggestion it just doesn't fit with my scenario. =)


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

deknow said:


> The experience the OP is having is exactly as one would expect. The bees will draw worker comb when they need worker comb. They will draw drone comb when they need drones. They will draw drone sized honeycomb if they need room for incoming nectar (less wax/lb of honey stored). A nuc will probably be more likely to draw worker comb this time of year (it feels the need to raise more workers)...but if your full sized hives are full of worker comb (especially if it isn't all being used), they will likely want to draw a bunch of drone comb, and a bunch of honey comb for incoming stores...why would they make more worker comb?
> 
> This "author" put this information in the book...and posts it here regularly....and I'm curious what you think anyone who promotes standard frames (from any supplier) with Popsicle sticks as comb guides is "trying to sell"? Popsicles?
> 
> deknow


I'm gonna put my stock in deknow's way of thinking because honestly, it makes the most sense to me. We will see here by the end of August if I can rotate in another batch of frames and in the event that I can what they do with them. I'll keep you guys posted.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

As I said, just an observation 
Solomon, along your line of thought, what if we tell the bees what the don't need? We give them all worker foundation and they find a way to make drone cells. We "allow" natural, and they do their plan as long as we do not fool with it. But when we do fool with it, things go askew. Has anyone, or what would be the thoughts, on this: Take a swarm, and add a frame of drone comb. Would that satisfy the drone need? 
Reason I ask. I had a swarm that I put on foundationless frames. I was quite surprised, not at the drone comb itself, but how soon they started making it. It is natural to prepare in the bee world for the worst. Just wondering


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

Moon, I'd like to hear how things go for you.
We started our bees on frames from Walter T Kelley but did not experience the amount of drone comb that you have.
Maybe you could pyramid that drone comb up into the above supers so they get filled with honey later on.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Allen said:


> Moon, I'd like to hear how things go for you.
> We started our bees on frames from Walter T Kelley but did not experience the amount of drone comb that you have.
> Maybe you could pyramid that drone comb up into the above supers so they get filled with honey later on.


I'm not sure if it's because of the time of year or not Allen but the current drone comb has emerging drone on it and the empty cells next to the emerging drones is beginning to be back filled with honey. Bonus?


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## Goldprospector (May 17, 2012)

I had two established hives with a single deep that I wanted to "convert" to foundationless. The first couple of frames were drawn out as drone size. When I wanted to add more, I move the drone size to the outside of the brood chamber and always inserted then new frame between worker comb. After only a couple of drone frames, I had nice looking worker comb. Later on new packages or splits,I just put in foundationless either in the whole box or staggered brood comb and they have built mostly worker comb ever since. When they build drone comb, I figure that they want or need it and I leave it alone. All of my 8 hives are foundationless other than 3 frames in one hive.

They seem to use the space wisely and I am happy with the resul


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## Fl_Beak (May 9, 2010)

placement of your new frames that are being drawn naturally seems to have impact on drone cell vs worker cell. 

If I super with foundationless during a flow and the bees plan to fill it with honey- it's large cell. If I 'checkerboard' the brood nest, I may see a little drone at the top and the rest worker cell...I've been headed toward natural foundation for about a year. You can just cut out the drone cell if you don't want it and let em rebuild. I keep some drone cell going and freeze it as varroa management...


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Rick 1456 said:


> Solomon, along your line of thought, what if we tell the bees what the don't need? We give them all worker foundation and they find a way to make drone cells. We "allow" natural, and they do their plan as long as we do not fool with it. But when we do fool with it, things go askew. Has anyone, or what would be the thoughts, on this: Take a swarm, and add a frame of drone comb. Would that satisfy the drone need?


Hmm, I don't really have a solid answer for that because I've never done it. My point was that if you're unhappy with the results, you have to do something different. These results are seen all the time. We want large swaths of perfectly drawn brood comb. The bees have no such need. So in order to get what we want, we must manipulate the configuration to achieve that.

Here's my hack: Early in the year, they will draw brood comb if you place single frames in the middle of the broodnest. Nucs will draw it for longer. So I keep nucs whose sole job is to draw comb. It gets rotated in or out as long as they're still doing it. So use nucs to draw comb and only use bigger hives to do it only during the right time of year. If you keep doing the same thing, you'll keep getting the same results. Hives will draw drone this time of year.


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## oklabizznessman (Oct 24, 2011)

I have most of my hives slowly converting to foundationless some where close to a hundred give or take a couple dozen on any day. lol. I wanting to convert also to mediums but I had about 140 deeps so stuck with those until I can convert more. I love the way they pull the deeps and they fill them with brood. You do have to be careful with some of the frames until they get them stuck to the bottom but not a big issue. Above that though in the supers (medium) I have had some drone cells pulled and they are big, park a car in some of them but when they were through they just filled them with honey. I had one medium super weigh 103 pounds with several frames having the big cells. Hard on an old fat man. Some of the comb busted when spinning but most of it I cut and it made beautiful comb honey. Might note the mediums that had wires in them spun out ok. I have been scratching my head on this issue of complete box management that was mentioned that Mr Bush does and I also had some questions on something I saw Mr Palmer doing. In one of his videos he had hives four or five boxes high and in his second box was a small super??? First thought was it was all he had on the truck and just left it but decided had to be another reason??? I also thought there was a thread that discussed when converting to foudationless it actually had to be done in two stages???? Working bees is never dull.


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## mrspock (Feb 1, 2010)

Moon said:


> It's not from a drone laying queen. Lesson learned was with a question mark. I was trying to infer that going foundationless was a bad idea.


Lesson learned is that improper or uninformed use of a tool can bring unexpected results.

I suggest that both the bees and the frames are working as intended.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I do the same thing as goldprospector, put an empty frame between brood comb, if it gets drawn out as drones, move it up or to the outside, or both. Soon enough you will have them drawing out beautiful brood/honey comb and if numbers allow, move a frame or two of foundationless worker brood up into the second box and insert a couple more frames for them to draw out. I was in the same boat as Moon and see a lot of drone comb being drawn out and after some talk with others and how to do things, it has turned out great!! And it is really surprising how strong that foundationless comb is, I moved my bees across town and thought I would be rubber banding comb back into the frames, no the case though!!


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## ekrouse (Aug 26, 2004)

Moon:
I have used natural comb for years with great success... but with a twist. I use regular brood foundation or Pierco plastic foundation in the brood boxes and let them draw natural comb in honey supers above queen excluders. They do make jumbo cells, much bigger than drone cells, but that makes extracting easier and my cut comb honey has far less wax per bite including a much thinner "foundation" layer than using cut comb foundation. An added benefit is that my cut comb honey doesn't have contaminated wax from the wax mill.

Ekrouse


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## danmcm (May 23, 2012)

This thread made me laugh many times. "books of the natural masters. Read the blogs and posts of the rightous" 
Bee-religion to funny heres my couple cents since everyone else has weighed in...

1) what works for someone might not work for everyone (some exaggerate)
2) "Let them do what they want to do", hmmm. A hive super-organism "wants" to make more of it's self and live forever (one can infer). It doesn't "want" to make honey to be robbed and remain calm while it is being robbed. It doesn't want to not swarm and since it is recently exposed to new diseases and parasites I don't believe they have formed oppinions on them yet (tongue in check)
3) Look at each hive and decide what has to happen to have them survive, leave the Bee-religion out of it (treatment free has alot of bee-religion posters)

Good luck
Daniel


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

danmcm said:


> This thread made me laugh many times. "books of the natural masters. Read the blogs and posts of the rightous"
> Bee-religion to funny heres my couple cents since everyone else has weighed in...
> 
> 1) what works for someone might not work for everyone (some exaggerate)
> ...


Since you're weighing in what's your personal experience on using natural cell combs after a period of culling to induce regression? What were your hives like before while on whatever foundation it was you were using and what were they like after? What type of mite counts did you experience before and after?

1) What works for someone might not work for everyone (some exaggerate)
- I agree some people definitely do exaggerate. Other people may be overly conservative and not report the full extent of their successes. I imagine that can go both ways. Although past experience shows it would more than likely lean towards those over stating their success.

2) "Let them do what they want to do", hmmm. A hive super-organism "wants" to make more of it's self and live forever (one can infer). It doesn't "want" to make honey to be robbed and remain calm while it is being robbed. It doesn't want to not swarm and since it is recently exposed to new diseases and parasites I don't believe they have formed oppinions on them yet (tongue in check)

- I think you're missing the point of the 'let them do what they want' comments. I believe what is being inferred is to allow the bees to draw out the cell size that they want being as how that's what my original post was related to. The exorbitant amount of drone comb that was being produced. Given that I (most people) am unfamiliar with what the bees will draw out naturally given the different times of year as well as in relation to the timing of the flows I think the idea of 'Let them do what they want to do' is not only prudent, but necessary.

3) Look at each hive and decide what has to happen to have them survive, leave the Bee-religion out of it (treatment free has alot of bee-religion posters)

- Deciding what needs to happen for a hive to survive is another point of contention among beekeepers. Dumping chemicals, fungicides, & antibiotics in to a hive may prolong the life of a colony that would otherwise succumb to parasites and disease but to what end? Does the short term gain associated with using treatments negate the long term effects of contaminated combs mingled with continued breeding of stock that is proven over and over again to be susceptible to disease? Undoubtedly there is a lot of 'Bee-religion' out there and a lot of people swear by management strategies without actually having seen the other end of the spectrum but I see no reason to attribute an entire branch of beekeeping (treatment free) into a group of fanatics that don't know what they're talking about. 

Personally I plan to pursue treatment free beekeeping for several reasons.

1) Foundation is bloody expensive. I can't afford to buy 10,000 frames ($6900) along with 10,000 sheets of rite-cell ($8,800). Couple those costs with the costs of feeding, using fumagilin every fall along with mite treatments, etc... etc... etc... It's an endless money pit in my mind.

2) In any part of industrialized agriculture where humans have began dumping antibodies, growth hormones, and unnatural foods that are outside a given organisms normal diet adverse side effects have been observed. This isn't a fanatical religious point of few, it is a scientific fact. I see no reason to continue the same cycles in beekeeping.

3) Foundationless comb is just cooler imho then comb on foundation

4) Everyone has their own desires and goals while keeping bees. Mine so far seem to be simply having fun and staying actively engaged in trying new things until I find the right combination of things that work best for what my ultimate long term goals are. I'll lose nothing (except a little sanity and a few dozen hives) if this doesn't work out. If my queen rearing continues the way it has the few lost hives are a moot point and the sanity... Well I guess you have to have some to begin with to lose any along the way eh?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Whenever you add foundationless (or leave a space for them to draw comb in general) in a well progressed hive that has been on worker foundation, they will draw nothing but drone comb for the first several frames. I have about 25% drone comb in my hives. The bees use it when they want and backfill it when they don't want drones. If I am determining where, I put it on the outsides which is where, under normal circumstances, they would have put it. I never remove it.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

Going foundationless is a good learning experience. It shows how easy it is to mess up a colony's decision making process with a beekeeper's good intentions. And how long it takes for a colony to get back into its natural rhythm in spite of the beekeeper's best judgement.

And it's a good test to see just how far down the natural path a beekeeper has gone.When the bees are given the freedom to choose and their choice doesn't meet with the beekeeper's expectations, what has gone wrong? 

In my own case, I find that I'm often too impatient for the results. And that I need to think in terms of brood cycles rather than days or weeks.

Regards - Dennis


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