# hypothetical question



## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Forgive me I am new. I am one of those organic food folks who detests the many chemicals, food artifice and junk modern society has allowed into animal and human bodies. It sounds extreme, but I know I have to bend with the wind to survive in this day and age...so now to bees.
I want a treatment free hive. I don't jive with any of the locals and what they are suggesting I begin with and do. If there is a will-and there is-there must be a way to get to TF for a beginner. I have read a lot of posts here and hope I understand what's being said.
Here is my hypothetical scenario:
I get a feral swarm from a group of bee rescuers who somehow claim to find non africanized bees in orange county, CA, I put the swarm in my new/empty deep super with foundationless frames (with plans to correct comb problems), I add the top cover with a sugar syrup feeder and an empty medium to cover and then lid. I reduce the entrance a lot. At some point I would like to requeen with a vsh-Italian queen from local tf breeder with the mite resistance bred in... and perhaps I only have to treat once on my road to TF for the original bees or maybe not at all?
I preform mite counts to determine if any treatment is needed before doing so.

Could this, with minor or even major tweaks be a feasible approach? I am not new to raising insects at all, I have an entomology background and I have good intuition with the insects I have raised-I think I may have a leg up on other beginners. I can't find a mentor and I can't get a definite on a TF nuc from anyone yet. I hope I can get one from another member who lives in so cal so I will have a second hive ready. 

I would like to run langstroth one deep, remainder mediums...foundationless ideally, but willing to checkerboard untrained bees if needed or suggested as I have seen. I just don't like the foundations available...contaminated wax, plastic....metal wire would interest me if it's suggested. 

Sorry if this is just plain nonsense, i am on a crazy learning curve and i am an idealist. 

Thanks so much for any advice or help


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## Montyb (May 27, 2013)

Michael Bush has a very good YouTube video about healthy bees, without treating. We have 3 hives that have over wintered 3 times here in the up of Michigan. Have never treated, don't intend to. He mentioned that the prob w treating is yes it kills mites but also kills the good stuff in the hive. Weakening them. Kind of like antibiotics kill good bacteria along with bad.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Montyb said:


> Michael Bush mentioned that the prob w treating is yes it kills mites but also kills the good stuff in the hive. Weakening them. Kind of like antibiotics kill good bacteria along with bad.


But much of mankind could not live or live well without antibiotics..............


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I truly do wish you luck. 
You are assuming and asking for a lot being in Orange County, Ca.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

diymom said:


> I want a treatment free hive. I don't jive with any of the locals and what they are suggesting I begin with and do.


that you are unable to find any locals who are already accomplishing what you have in mind for your bees is telling. nobody is treating for the fun of it. unfortunately in many locations and perhaps especially in southern california getting away with not managing for varroa mites has eluded a good many of those who have tried it. this is mostly why you are having trouble finding anyone locally for mentoring or to supply you with tf bees and queens.



diymom said:


> If there is a will-and there is-there must be a way to get to TF for a beginner.


that sounds good in print, but in reality the bees could care less how motivated you are or what your world view is or how strongly or not you feel about chemicals. with bees there are too many variables beyond the beekeeper's control. all of us keeping bees are very much at the mercy of what is going on with the population of bees in our immediate area. 

this is true insofar as the bees (especially drones) drift from one hive to another thereby spreading pests and pathogens across the local population; weak and collapsing colonies get robbed out by nearby stronger colonies and again there is the spreading of mites, viruses, ect; and then genetically speaking each time a colony make a new queen she will mate with whatever drones are in the neighborhood and what you end up eventually is the same bees that everyone else around you has.



diymom said:


> I am not new to raising insects at all, I have an entomology background and I have good intuition with the insects I have raised-I think I may have a leg up on other beginners.


this should be an advantage for you in terms of getting up to speed on the knowledge set that has always been part of successful beekeeping. as to how much having that background increases your chances to pull off keeping bees off treatments in your location? i would say probably not much. i'll submit randy oliver as an example of someone with both the science background and years of practical experience who is someone in your part of the world who would have figured out how to make it work by now but hasn't.



diymom said:


> Sorry if this is just plain nonsense, i am on a crazy learning curve and i am an idealist.


successfully keeping bees off treatments is anything but nonsense, for the reasons you started your thread with, as well as the fact even the large commercial concerns are eager for breakthroughs and are looking for more sustainable ways to deal with varroa.

we are all on a learning curve when it comes to bees and ideals will only take you so far, but i would encourage you to give it your best shot and see what you can do. if you haven't already found these resources here are the two that were the most influential to me as i was getting my start with bees:

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

with the exception of not using small cell and not ascribing to any particular world view, most of my methods are the same as what mike bush describes here with regard to keeping bees off treatments.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com

randy is a pretty smart fellow and a lot of what he has to say may be especially applicable to your location. i would recommend reading through his 'articles by publication date' in chronological order and you can see how some of his ideas have evolved as new information has become available.

that's enough homework to keep you busy for awhile. other than that keep up the search for someone in your area who might be having success keeping bees off treatments. getting your bees and advice from them would be the fastest track forward. if that's not possible then resign yourself to the fact it may end up taking all of that tenacity of yours plus a little extra. best of luck to you.


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Do you have pets? Do you refuse them care in order to feel better about being natural? Nothing wrong with attempting to start treatment free. I only treat for mites because I have too. I have been doing soft treatments for 3 years with no ill effects at all. I also worm my dogs regularly and give them heartworm treatment. I haven't had the need to give my bees antibiotics and you may never as well. Take care of.your bees , keep up with the health of the hive. Do mite checks spring summer and.fall. if the.level gets over 3 percent you can help them survive with several options that are considered organic. Nothing wrong with plan A but always have plan B just in case. Good luck


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

diymom said:


> Could this, with minor or even major tweaks be a feasible approach?


Yes. I have about forty hives. (My goal is twelve, but I can't seem to get down to that number). I've never treated. Use feral bees, particularly cutouts and trapouts from long established feral hives. Make splits from good hives. Leave your bees plenty of honey, and don't feed your bees except in emergencies. Don't use package bees. One of the key elements of being treatment free is not treating. In order to use treatments, you will be better off getting advice from people who treat. In order to be treatment free, you probably should listen to folks (such as Squarepeg) who are successfully raising bees treatment free. Best wishes.



> Thanks so much for any advice or help


De nada.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I think your location may make going TF for mites extremely hard to pull off.

My suggestion would be to learn how to keep bees successfully with minimal treatments, first. Then when you've got that part of the equation squared away, re-queen with the best VSH-queen lines that you can find that are adapted for your area and then give full-on TF a try.

You needn't eat the honey the bees in your "learner" hives produce, let them have it all while you get your own skill level up to speed. You won't be harming your bees, or equipment, in the process if you choose your mite treatments carefully during this period. 

Just because a hive-stock comes from feral bees does not mean that they are, or will be, good candidates for the TF approach. All of my own bees are from swarms in an area with a still-extant population of feral bees. (I had unmanaged colonies living in my barn walls for two decades up to the summer before I hived the swarms.) But my bees still require treatments to control mites (although so far, nothing for any bee disease.) Otherwise I have no doubt they would perish cyclically from mites and the viral diseases the mites vector, just like the nearby feral colonies do. Unless one is "managing" a feral colony (I realize that's an oxymoron) it is difficult know if what's long-lived is the site or the bees. More bee-experience has taught me that it's often the site (be it tree cavity or hole in the wall) that has long use, not the actual bee colonies within.

I second the recommendation to read Randy Oliver's site, from top to bottom. You may then conclude, as I have, that if you wish to keep healthy, thriving and long-lived colonies you must devise a mite-program that answers the need to treat at the lowest possible level, with the least objectionable materials and the fewest times per year, while still keeping the mites and the diseases they bring at bay. There are lots of techniques, treatment strategies, and materials to choose from. You don't have to dose your bees with organophosphates and antibiotics.

I monitor the mite levels in my bees weekly, all year long. Note that I am in northern NY, and even in January I am tracking my mite levels, because I am really dedicated to using the least worst, lowest amount and most infrequent treating that does the job.

I am a university-trained horticulturist and there are some field crops that I cannot grow in my area without unacceptable levels of chemical inputs. I simply forgo growing them myself and buy them from organic suppliers in other areas. 

It may be that way for you, in southern CA, with bees. As Squarepeg pointed out above, the lack of TF bees/mentors in your area may be dispositive. (Ignore other newbies just starting out as TF, they are in the same boat as you. A proven TF apiary would have at least five years - or more - off treatments, and with the same colonies surviving, year after year. Anybody can buy fresh guinea pig bees every year after the previous ones have died - treating bee colonies as if they were annuals doesn't count.) 

Enjambres


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

By all means...every new beekeeper should be TF. 

I was trying to be TF myself until I read up on EXACTLY what that means. 
It means you are going to purchase livestock and not feed them or give them any type of medication.
You'll be fine. 

Your sarcasm meter should be maxed out at 11 on a scale of 10 right now. 
Sorry but I don't know how to say it nicely in a few words. Plz forgive me for being real.

Kept bees from 1978 to 1990 and was TF the whole time...then my bees died. (all of them)
Started again last spring anew and it was not long before I had SHB and mites. Right then the TF ideas went into the waste can. The first time you see a "crawler", a deformed bee with deformed limbs, you will fall off the TF wagon. The first time you see SHB larva (ew) you'll get all upset and frantic about getting rid of them nasty devils. 
Did not have bees from 1990 to 2015. Was busy working and raising a family.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Bkwoodsbees said:


> Do you have pets?................. I also worm my dogs regularly and give them heartworm treatment. ............Nothing wrong with plan A but always have plan B just in case. Good luck


nobody is worming our local coyote population and they are exploding in population 

If you have a plan B, you will never see if plan A is fruitful. My best honey producer last yr had the worst case of DWV the previous yr. I desperatly wanted to treat them for mites to " save them" but stuck to my guns because I realized saving one colony would do nothing in the grand scheme of things to making the species as a whole. Stronger. There are countless examples of people having colonies live for xxx number of yrs with zero treatments so anything is possible they made it through this winter pretty strong as well.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

aunt betty said:


> The first time you see a "crawler", a deformed bee with deformed limbs, you will fall off the TF wagon. The first time you see SHB larva (ew) you'll get all upset and frantic about getting rid of them nasty devils.


speak for yourself and see my previous post


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## mrflegel (Mar 23, 2014)

I wish you well with your hunt for the perfect world. The end product from your hive is honey which the bees gather from over 2000 acres of land. There is no way to control where they go or what they get into. I understand wanting to limit what they get into and you are trying to start at the only place you can control. Know it is not going to be organic honey no mater what you treat with or don't treat with. I hope you can find it but failure is always an option.
Mike


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

mrflegel said:


> I wish you well with your hunt for the perfect world. The end product from your hive is honey which the bees gather from over 2000 acres of land. There is no way to control where they go or what they get into. I understand wanting to limit what they get into and you are trying to start at the only place you can control. Know it is not going to be organic honey no mater what you treat with or don't treat with. I hope you can find it but failure is always an option.
> Mike


Yikes...there is a lot to attempt to address on my hypothetical...

yes these uncontrollable factors are always in my mind. Hell, we all are poisoned with jet fuel and it's worst at the poles-poor inuits-there is no escaping the modern pollution. I know for sure I have little control over anything.
I'm not naive just optimistic of the possibilities, with full expectation to fail, but aren't a lot of people who succeed in life? If you don't try you'll never succeed, if you do, you might...

I agree with a lot and understand what everyone is saying. I'm totally ok with failure. I personally feel the end "honey and bee byproducts convenient to me" does not justify the means "using unnatural measures to save a hive". It's harsh, and obviously arguable. I think there is so much more at play that we don't see which is effected by any substance used like Mr. Bush says, Even smoke. (This doesn't mean I won't smoke em if I've got em) this could go way off topic because in essence it's about core beliefs, ideals, standards and what we are settling for or refusing to settle for. It's just all applied to poor insects that were imported from halfway across the world and don't actually belong here that make one of the best things on earth!. I actually don't like non indigenous species messaging up my native stuff usually, though it seems in the honey bee's case, there is little negative effect, or at least there was before the mites and SHB got imported too. Not much I can do about any of it but try and contribute to a solution.

I really enjoy Michael Bush's information...I've been binging on his lectures for days. I really think he has it right and I admire his calm manner of addressing so many controversial ideas. I am picking my way through his site.

Thanks for the info on the Randy site, that's what I will be spending my evenings reading. Great tip. 
Tf is happening here in southern California, but it's not being advertised, kind of like non vaccinating parents or the natural methods that are way too controversial to even say...escaping mainstream criticism. 

And to be honest about livestock and my pets. If I Chose to feed them nasty processed food vs their natural diets, I would probably have a lot more intervention needed to keep them alive. However, my cats eat fish my husband catches, my chickens eat beetle (my vermiculture) larvae, grass, weeds, fruit and organic kitchen scraps plus sunflower seeds and my geese and ducks I used to have before I went down the food conscious road did pretty well too (probably because I ordered the best stock I could find). I do deworming though...but not with drugs , it's possible with natural things Luke garlic, cloves, wormwood etc. And don't ask me how I know it works.

"nobody is worming our local coyote population and they are exploding in population "
If they were, they wouldn't be doing as well, that's for sure, just propagating weak coyotes. I hate when wild animal rescues vaccinate otherwise healthy animals before releasing them...it's like they can't help screwing with a species that is otherwise fine. Just look at those orcas at sea world...or lots of zoo animals. I think our society is breeding weaker humans too. It's a harsh view, I know, sorry for any offense.

I am probably sadistic, but I am going to try my best at treatment free, and that means sourcing the best stock I can get first which may mean waiting until next season even. I don't give up easily and I'm not new to dead insects. I respect bees and will probably love them insanely, I will be very sad if I fail, but it's a reality either way. It's just tough going it alone. 
By the way, has anyone read that "beekeeping mentor in a book" book? It's on Michael Bush's website...recommended reading for the beginning beek who is insane and sadistic and wants to attempt the impossible and for such reasons is basically shunned from their peers and therefore desperately seeks mentor? Is it a good book?


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Also, I thought it was a good mention about the breeding with local drones reduce my Tf queens resistance and so hope I can retain my queens or requeen a split or nuc with well bred queens (wish i could find something other than Italians around here-love to have some Russians)
...I am reading up on how to do everything from inspections to making nucs and swarm prevention... seems my whole day is beekeeping school now. I am making up my own hypothetical bee year and another calendar with minimal treatments if I totally lose it and cave to savior mode. I am working with the last five years of seasonal and rainfall data to predict some date ranges for my locale in hope to prepare adequately in advance to avoid swarms, make splits, and throwing in hazards to work out as my preliminary simulation to sort of rehearse my methodology and see how it fits into my year and routines. I overprepare.

Thanks for all the feedback, it has introduced some new ideas and made me rethink some things.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Bkwoodsbees said:


> Do you have pets? Do you refuse them care in order to feel better about being natural? Nothing wrong with attempting to start treatment free. I only treat for mites because I have too. I have been doing soft treatments for 3 years with no ill effects at all. I also worm my dogs regularly and give them heartworm treatment. I haven't had the need to give my bees antibiotics and you may never as well. Take care of.your bees , keep up with the health of the hive. Do mite checks spring summer and.fall. if the.level gets over 3 percent you can help them survive with several options that are considered organic. Nothing wrong with plan A but always have plan B just in case. Good luck


The problem with this view is that bees mate openly. All over drones from hives that cannot fight mites without treatment are inseminating queens who, given better semen, would produce more mite resistant bees. And so the both natural selection toward resistance and tf beekeepers efforts are being continually thwarted.

Treating bees like pets, or like lifestock in a closed breeding system, has given us treatment-dependent bees.

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

mrflegel said:


> I wish you well with your hunt for the perfect world. The end product from your hive is honey which the bees gather from over 2000 acres of land. There is no way to control where they go or what they get into. I understand wanting to limit what they get into and you are trying to start at the only place you can control. Know it is not going to be organic honey no mater what you treat with or don't treat with. I hope you can find it but failure is always an option.
> Mike


Having lots of hives so that some can fail is a fine strategy. 

Mike (UK)


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## mrflegel (Mar 23, 2014)

We each try to help in our way. There is no sense in waiting another year. Michael Bush is on this site often, sorce some queens from him ( I respect his work also). Re queen some of the local california bees with his queens and away you go. It takes bees to make bees. The queen is the driving force for the future of the hive. Where the work force comes from dosent matter. If it works requeen every year. If not you will know.
Keep us posted.
Mike


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

mrflegel said:


> If it works requeen every year. If not you will know.
> Mike


Why do you advocate requeening every year Mike? The way I see it, if the queen is working well, leave her alone and make more colonies from her, trying to arrange mating in places likely to contain good (feral) drones. That way the genes that are working locally come in to join the successful imported ones.

Mike (UK)


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Look up Tyson Kaiser. An urban beekeeper in Los Angeles. He is part of an TF group there. He removes lots of ferals and has a good ear to the ground there.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Do you think Michael Bush would actually have queens available? Everybody probably hounds him for bees and info. I am pretty sure I will be starting with a swarm and if need be, requeening it soon after, such as if it the hive is africanized. I will definitely need a suit, but with the money I won't be wasting on a package, I can afford it. I have decided to go with two hives. That way if a Tf nuc becomes available or if I need to split, I have the option.

So with Tf, nobody worries about Shb because the bees keep them under control...if you help by not giving them too much room to manage right? Would an oil pan under the bottom board be considered Tf...I would like to kill pulsating larvae before the get into the dirt....help other bees too. Won't the bees figure out to drive the larvae down and then possibly the adults if you use one of these too?
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/product/DC-860.html
I think it's a good idea.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

there are almost as many definitions of 'treatment free' as there are tf beekeepers, don't get hung up on them.

beesource has it's own definition on a sticky thread at the top of the subforum. trapping small hive beetles is not considered a treatment there.

i keep a disposable trap in each box in each hive like the ones mann lake sells. i use vegetable oil with a little rotten banana juice and apple cider vinegar mixed in for a lure.

i have solid bottom boards in all of my hives because that's what i started with. there are a few folks around here with the screened bottoms, and they seem to get a _lot_ more beetles showing up in their hives than i do. i'm not sure, but i think the beetles may getting in through the screen.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

also wrt screened bottoms, randy oliver did a field trial comparing them to solid and did not see a significant difference in varroa control. that info can be found somewhere on his website. i believe that there may by others who have investigated that and found similar.

for ventilation, i cut 1.5" notches all the way through the front and back rims on my inner covers, and staple window screen around the notches to deny access to beetles and moths.


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## yukonjack (Mar 12, 2015)

"Beekeepers have been hearing a great deal about a number of methods for control of parasitic mites in their beehives. One of the most prominently promoted methods is the screen bottom board. The theory is simple. Mites are known to fall off of adult bees in the hive. Normally, these mites would simply acquire a new host and continue their life-cycle. The screen bottom board allows these mites to fall right out of the colony and therefore, renders them incapable of acquiring a new host. The result is that the mite population either declines or grows less rapidly. Our findings on the efficacy of the highly popular screen bottom board method have revealed no effect on mite populations or honey production whatsoever. "

http://mysare.sare.org/sare_project/LNE00-130/?page=final


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

SHB isn't a problem in California for the most part. You may see a few here and there but for whatever reason, you don't see lots of beetles coming into hives as you can witness in other parts of the country. Good luck with being TF in Cali, that's all I will say about it.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Do your homework. Learn all you can about varroa. A solid understanding of their lifecycle is essential....whether tf or not. Then, decide what strategy you might use to keep them in check. I suspect that in your climate bees produce brood year round. This is the perfect reproducing environment for mites. Don't believe...not for an instant....that your bees don't have varroa mites. Decide on a method to objectively test for infestation levels. Whether you treat or not.....don't go at it blindfolded.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Montyb said:


> Michael Bush mentioned that the prob w treating is yes it kills mites but also kills the good stuff in the hive. Weakening them. Kind of like antibiotics kill good bacteria along with bad.


If you've ever seen a hive after an OAV treatment, you might think differently. It's as if a tremendous burden has been lifted from them. The hive is "livelier" and the bees "zippier." Hard to describe until you've seen it. Ask those who have..............


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

beemandan said:


> Do your homework. Learn all you can about varroa. A solid understanding of their lifecycle is essential....whether tf or not. Then, decide what strategy you might use to keep them in check. I suspect that in your climate bees produce brood year round. This is the perfect reproducing environment for mites. Don't believe...not for an instant....that your bees don't have varroa mites. Decide on a method to objectively test for infestation levels. Whether you treat or not.....don't go at it blindfolded.


I second getting an objective test for mites. But be aware that today there is no such test. All we have are tests that range from not so good to meaningless for tests. The oft used mite drop on a sticky board falls close to the meaningless end. The problems with this test are so many that such counts tell you if you have mites and not much more. But, you already know you have mites. There is no way to convert such drop counts into mites per 100 bees which is what you really want to know.

I think the best test is an alcohol wash. It is easy to do, fast and reproducible. It gets a real good count on phoretic mites. The problem is it tells you nothing about mites sealed in brood. So, if you test when there is lots of brood you probably are counting about 2/3s of the actual mites per 100 bees. If you are doing drone culling and have a lot of drone brood maybe less than 2/3s. Still, nothing else is as good. A sugar shake only gets a variable 60% to 80% of phoretic mites compared to a wash. I have used windshield washer fluid in place of plain alcohol and found it works ok. I would say not quite as well as alcohol but for practical purposes close enough when you remember that alcohol is far from perfect.

Oliver has a good explanation on his web site on how to make an alcohol wash container out of clear plastic Solo cups you can get at the grocery store and an eight mesh wire screen. I find them to work very well. He suggests attaching the screen by melting the plastic into the edge of the screen. I find if you rough the plastic with sand paper where the screen goes polyurethane gorilla glue holds just fine and results in a lot less deformation of the plastic.

Depending on your objectives for production and current virus loads a mite count of under 2 per 100 bees is fine and a count over 5 portends problems. Both of those numbers are real soft. Someone is going to say they have seven or ten and their bees are doing fine and someone else will say 2 is too many. They are probably both right. It is the varroa transmitted viruses that wreck colony health and some may have low virus levels or non virulent viruses and do fine with higher mite counts. At least if you do the most meaningful tests for mites we have you can calibrate your own local situation and get some empirical data that tells you when you are in trouble. But, it may not translate to your buddy the other side of town.

Dick


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

beemandan said:


> Do your homework. Learn all you can about varroa. A solid understanding of their lifecycle is essential....whether tf or not. Then, decide what strategy you might use to keep them in check. I suspect that in your climate bees produce brood year round. This is the perfect reproducing environment for mites. Don't believe...not for an instant....that your bees don't have varroa mites. Decide on a method to objectively test for infestation levels. Whether you treat or not.....don't go at it blindfolded.


I'll be going about things as if they have mites for sure, I'm not stupid. I plan on taking at least seasonal measurements via that grid sticky paper which is why I opted for screened bottoms.

It's good news about the hive beetles...I still want to kill em all if I see any though just as a way to help my region. Apparently there are several Tf operations on small scale in southern California proving it can be done. We need a support group here. Just found out most feral bees caught in my area aren't africanized, but pretty tame and I find it astonishing how many regional differences exist in beekeeping in my area. I just read some old thread where member fusion_power gave a lot of pertinent info and he is still north of me 5 hours. He is altering his local population purposefully and yearly with consistency to promote vsh bees. Cereza said his neighborhood population is perpetuating Tf bees just 45 miles from me and another guy in L.A. was mentioned here, and I am trying to talk to him now. Another member listed down in San Diego is doing it on a large scale... these are all very hopeful things. 
I am actually now upset by what the mentor who turned me down was telling me about feral bees and Tf being a big fat failure card. How would she know if she writes it all off and hasn't ever listened to or looked into anyone doing it? She thought all the local feral bees were crazy aggressive and would sting my whole neighborhood info used one and yet, here is a big group of people a city away who rescue hives every day and use them without those problems.

Beekeeping is as variable as gardening and as controversial as any conventional vs natural debate. Had no idea.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

None of those operations has proven anything to me honestly. I believe I have some wildflower meadows queens on order, I'm betting they mite out just like all the rest once they're up here where the real pressure is. I hope to be proven wrong but if I don't see any heritability of resistance from the bees I order, it's not a success IMO. Also, I think sometimes unsubstantiated claims are being made and no one can say otherwise.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

diymom said:


> I just read some old thread where member fusion_power gave a lot of pertinent info and he is still north of me 5 hours.


You're in Alabama?


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Richard Cryberg said:


> I second getting an objective test for mites. But be aware that today there is no such test. All we have are tests that range from not so good to meaningless for tests. The oft used mite drop on a sticky board falls close to the meaningless end. The problems with this test are so many that such counts tell you if you have mites and not much more. But, you already know you have mites. There is no way to convert such drop counts into mites per 100 bees which is what you really want to know.
> 
> I think the best test is an alcohol wash. It is easy to do, fast and reproducible. It gets a real good count on phoretic mites. The problem is it tells you nothing about mites sealed in brood. So, if you test when there is lots of brood you probably are counting about 2/3s of the actual mites per 100 bees. If you are doing drone culling and have a lot of drone brood maybe less than 2/3s. Still, nothing else is as good. A sugar shake only gets a variable 60% to 80% of phoretic mites compared to a wash. I have used windshield washer fluid in place of plain alcohol and found it works ok. I would say not quite as well as alcohol but for practical purposes close enough when you remember that alcohol is far from perfect.
> 
> ...


Ok, I have that info logged into my notes.
Now has anyone just tried catching 50 bees each day for like 3 days and doing a visual count and then culling 10 drone cells on each of three frames and counting... I realize it's more involved, but as an entomologist, I've spent many hours catching, rearing or moving and observing individual insects within a huge group...it can be done. You could easily 're release the non infested bees and figure out a quick way to scoop out drone larva via a home made tool - but that way you could get a good picture? I am just wondering if anyone has tried this and concluded the other test is equal or superior to it.
I've have a great contraption for observing bees and mobilizing them for observation.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

diymom said:


> I'll be going about things as if they have mites for sure, I'm not stupid. I plan on taking at least seasonal measurements via that grid sticky paper which is why I opted for screened bottoms.


I've never bothered looking for mites. I want mites - they keep my bees' genes strong. I've gone from no hives to (current) 68 in 5 years, without buying a single bee, or treating or fiddling in any way. 

My tf advice: ignore advice from people who are fixated on mites (there's a run of them above this post). They're written by people who've failed or been afraid, or not in a position to commit. Listen to people who succeed. Fixate on locating and developing a mite-managing local population instead. 

Mike (UK) 

68/80 overwintered 1015-16: 4 lost to mice, 4 isolation starvation. No sign of DWV yet this year, hardly any last.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

JRG13 said:


> None of those operations has proven anything to me honestly. I believe I have some wildflower meadows queens on order, I'm betting they mite out just like all the rest once they're up here where the real pressure is. I hope to be proven wrong but if I don't see any heritability of resistance from the bees I order, it's not a success IMO. Also, I think sometimes unsubstantiated claims are being made and no one can say otherwise.


Yeah, I agree, people can say anything really and then it's up to someone to disprove them...and to what end? 

Quote Originally Posted by diymom View Post
I just read some old thread where member fusion_power gave a lot of pertinent info and he is still north of me 5 hours.
You're in Alabama?

I thought he was in Sacramento...lemme check. I did mention I am doing most of my research and learning at night, so it's entirely possible I switched names or locations or misread...I am pretty information overloaded right now.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

diymom said:


> Beekeeping is as variable as gardening and as controversial as any conventional vs natural debate. Had no idea.


yep.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

diymom said:


> So with Tf, nobody worries about Shb because the bees keep them under control...if you help by not giving them too much room to manage right?


My bees don't have a problem with hive beetles as long as I keep the hives in good sun and don't give them more space than they can reasonably be expected to manage.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Just to give you an idea of what we are up against as far as Varroa and treatment free in California, here is a link to a post of what Eric Mussen who is now retired as California State Apiculturist at UCD has to say about the numbers of hives needed in California to pollinate almonds...

http://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=6923

"We've been watching the almonds budding and blossoming since late January.

They're in full bloom now, but a little ragged by the recent rain.

California has some 750,000 acres of almonds, and it takes two hives per acre to pollinate them.

Since California doesn't have that many bees, beekeepers from all over the country--from Florida to South Dakota to Washington state--truck in the little agricultural workers.

We asked Extension Apiculturist Eric Mussen of the UC Davis Department of Entomology, just how many California-based hives are in the state's almond orchards. That is, how many are "residents" and how many are "migratory."

Being a honey bee guru--after all, he's been with the department since 1976--Mussen knew the answer.

"About 500,000 hives of the 2.6 million hives now pollinating California's almond orchards live here," he said."

Please read the whole link.
There are many other links available to get the same or similar information.
Using Eric's numbers, that means that 2.6 million, minus the 500,000 hives that are already here and available to pollinate, gives 2,1 million hives move into California each year from October through March for almond pollination. Now, some years the almonds come up short of hives, I think this year was somewhere in the order of 300,000 short, if I remember right. So let's just make it easy and say that a a little less than 2 million hives migrate in and out of California each year. Heck, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say it's just 1.5 million. And what I'd like to know, is how many of those kinds of numbers are treatment free? What does anyone with a brain think that does to Varroa levels in this state? Treat and get re-fected, over and over again all year long.

All of you treatment free advocates that keep belittling me and other's about how we are nay sayers with no knowledge or what ever, over treatment free practices don't know what you are talking about. Treatment free, successful honey producing treatment free practices are few are far between in this state, especially anywhere in the central valley areas where we also would be a hot dry desert if it wasn't for irrigation practices. Most of the valley is hot dry dearth from July until the first rains in the fall which don't usually happen until November, sometimes in a good wet year end of October. And that's just in the central valley. It's even hotter and drier in the foothills and many remote locations, heck, why do you think that practically the whole state is on fire every year in the summer and fall?

You vocally intimidating treatment free advocates can go fly your kite somewhere else. Unless you've lived here and have been successfully treatment free for more than five years then you don't have a leg to stand on saying that me and others like me are overly vocally advocating treatments, leading new comers down a treatment path that they don't need to go to. Yeah right. LOCATION COUNTS in beekeeping.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

I just read the scientificbeekeeping.com article on feral colonies, how they aren't domesticated swarms but similar to wild bees in Europe because their genes have reverted back. It was really a great article. It made me more confident in feral bees, the studies were specific to California. The study was pre carrots, but still applicable I think.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Once again, if you want to do TF in your area I suggest you contact Tyson Kaiser. He works with feral bees in LA and between he and his network, can get you set up with bees that would have the best chance in your area. In LA proper he seems to have good success TF. 

http://www.sweetbeeremoval.com/


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

diymom said:


> Ok, I have that info logged into my notes.
> Now has anyone just tried catching 50 bees each day for like 3 days and doing a visual count and then culling 10 drone cells on each of three frames and counting...


Both have been done lots of times and studies have shown the data tells you little. Counting phoretic mites on bees is near impossible. You are lucky if you see one mite for every ten that are there according to studies I have seen run by entomoligists. Mites can hide under the scales on the bees as I understand the situation. Might help if you knocked the bees out with carbon dioxide so you could look at each bee under a dissecting scope. I have looked at thousands of bees in hives I knew were badly infected with mites and only recall seeing two or three mites. Easy to lift drone brood out with a capping scratcher. So, say you see a mite in one drone cell in 20. What does it tell you? About the same as doing a sticky paper under the bottom board. Not much other than you have mites.

For the record I have never said bees could not be kept treatment free. I have done it. I know others who do it. There are ferals that survive. Africanized bees survive without treatment. I was not happy with the number of dead hives and pathetic productivity I saw from untreated hives. Someone else might be perfectly content with the same results. I kept bees before we had mites so might have different expectations from those who do not have that experience. Lots of split induced brood breaks will allow survival. Lots of drone culling will allow survival. You do not even need any special queens if you do those things.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Richard Cryberg said:


> Both have been done lots of times and studies have shown the data tells you little. Counting phoretic mites on bees is near impossible. You are lucky if you see one mite for every ten that are there according to studies I have seen run by entomoligists. Mites can hide under the scales on the bees as I understand the situation. Might help if you knocked the bees out with carbon dioxide so you could look at each bee under a dissecting scope. I have looked at thousands of bees in hives I knew were badly infected with mites and only recall seeing two or three mites. Easy to lift drone brood out with a capping scratcher. So, say you see a mite in one drone cell in 20. What does it tell you? About the same as doing a sticky paper under the bottom board. Not much other than you have mites.
> 
> For the record I have never said bees could not be kept treatment free. I have done it. I know others who do it. There are ferals that survive. Africanized bees survive without treatment. I was not happy with the number of dead hives and pathetic productivity I saw from untreated hives. Someone else might be perfectly content with the same results. I kept bees before we had mites so might have different expectations from those who do not have that experience. Lots of split induced brood breaks will allow survival. Lots of drone culling will allow survival. You do not even need any special queens if you do those things.


So I was considering culling drones all along, I just hadn't heard anyone doing it (so far into my research)...good to know it's an option in management at least in someone's eyes, I think it's useful. I'm not out to sell honey or get more than 20-40lbs a year...so low production suits me even if it's a shadow of production twenty years ago.
I don't think I will do mite checks long term, I do want to do them to learn how and to see what falls out of a hive. I will assume I have mites...its pretty much a given.

I really appreciate the info about the difficulty in detection of mites...I remember seeing an blowup magnification of a flea with its mites and they were tucked up into the dorsal creases and even between the head and thorax...they were difficult to see in the large size let alone juvenile mites on an adult flea. That saves me extra research and contemplation.

Since I am not planning on treating, and going for homing feral bees, I am going to let them sink or swim with the whole mite problem in hopes of finding a resistant hive. I will try and split, make nucs, propagate my hives to see if I can improve my odds, but I just don't want to coddle weak bees like another member said. That's how I see it. Like those dog breeds that can't reproduce without help or 50% of them need to be put down or have crazy surgery due to defects....at what point do people stop screwing with animals and just accept a good, hearty creature for what it is? We live in a selfish society that objectifies everything and has no respect for individual creatures in respect to their own rights. I'm not an animal advocate or a crazy environmentalist, but I do think it's ridiculous to manipulate animals to the extremes we do and blindly accept such high statistics of illness, disease, malformations and dependency upon intervention just to survive, not thrive-that goes for dairy cows to bees to show dogs...oh and that goes for monocrops and almonds too. I respect a natural creature's abilities and appearance and function. I like harmony, not exploitation. That sounds like a hippy said that.

I messaged that guy in los angeles, I will visit the site now, that was very helpful, thanks! I have about fifty browser bookmarks just for bee stuff now. Yikes! 

I think it's a different game down here where I live vs the central valley, I think I wouldn't attempt treatment free if I lived in Bakersfield or Fresno...no way with the agricultural mayhem up there. I wouldn't even want honey from there, really. That place is a dearth for insects in general....I've tried collecting lepidoptera there in that vast expanse of agribusiness before...limited variety at best.

Orange county is a really nice post agricultural area with hundreds of old neighborhoods full of fruit trees and gardens and the occasional conventional crop and old orchard. I think odds here are pretty good. If Tf exists in Los Angeles, it can definitely make it down here 40 miles, as well as farther south. California is the size of 3 or 4 states and has enough geographical features to break it all up. I can't wait to get some feral bees and if nothing else, learn from them.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

diymom said:


> Since I am not planning on treating, and going for homing feral bees, I am going to let them sink or swim with the whole mite problem in hopes of finding a resistant hive. I will try and split, make nucs, propagate my hives to see if I can improve my odds, but I just don't want to coddle weak bees like another member said. That's how I see it. Like those dog breeds that can't reproduce without help or 50% of them need to be put down or have crazy surgery due to defects....at what point do people stop screwing with animals and just accept a good, hearty creature for what it is?
> 
> [...]
> 
> Orange county is a really nice post agricultural area with hundreds of old neighborhoods full of fruit trees and gardens and the occasional conventional crop and old orchard. I think odds here are pretty good. If Tf exists in Los Angeles, it can definitely make it down here 40 miles, as well as farther south. California is the size of 3 or 4 states and has enough geographical features to break it all up. I can't wait to get some feral bees and if nothing else, learn from them.


That's the spirit. And that spirit is what a tf beekeeper needs almost as much as mite-managing bees. 

Add John Kufus to your reading list. He is the architect of the 'bond test' which is what you'll be doing.

You limiting expansion factor will be brood comb. Don't let the nests fail to expand steadily due to lack of food or lack of egg-laying space (lack of bees you can't do anything about).

Swarms will build comb like billio; but note 90% (ish) of comb is built before the summer solstice. Try to pick up some swarms as quickly as possible and get them building comb in between your chosen plastic combs. Personally I don't use plastic combs at all - I think bees benefit from choosing their own (range of ) cell sizes. 

Get the odds on your side as quick as you can and work them. Excepting huge swarms, a hive takes time to grow. Understand what it needs, give it; stand back and let it get on while you focus on getting the next one in. 

Mike (Uk)


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

deleted


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

snl said:


> If you've ever seen a hive after an OAV treatment, you might think differently. It's as if a tremendous burden has been lifted from them. The hive is "livelier" and the bees "zippier." Hard to describe until you've seen it. Ask those who have..............


SNL - Now zippier bees might not be something I am after. Had a mess of they zipping up and at me too fast yesterday :lookout:

Just kidding, but what you say makes sense.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

snl said:


> If you've ever seen a hive after an OAV treatment, you might think differently. It's as if a tremendous burden has been lifted from them. The hive is "livelier" and the bees "zippier." Hard to describe until you've seen it. Ask those who have..............


It is interesting how the Moderators react to a post by a person who has a financial interest in selling a product banned by the rules of this sub forum.

"This forum is for those who wish to discuss Treatment-Free Beekeeping, not for them to be required to defend it. There is no need to discuss commercial or other methods of beekeeping. .... Any post advocating the use of treatments, according to the forum definition of treatment will be considered off topic and shall be moved to another forum or deleted by a moderator, unless it is employed as part of a plan in becoming treatment free. ......."

This must be the reason i have gone from reading this subforum five time a day to once every 5 days.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

irritating opinions and salesmanship are part of life, especially with the anonymity and capitalistic free for all on the internet...
I read all this forums rules and what Tf stands for. Yet, I knew full well there would be members who would disregard it-it's a set up-being surrounded by conventional beekeepers. 
I'm just thankful for the Tf members on here. I can't believe there are a little group of people who think like me about this sort of thing and are actually doing it! I think as unpopular as Tf is to other apiarists, they will be grateful or proven wrong one day when Tf bees become the most viable. 
Hoping I get my swarm by end of next week.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

As you describe your situation and your proximity with LA, I think you have a fighting chance. Might as well get some swarm traps set up to catch some ferals. 

Kaiser says about 10 % of the bees are too aggressive, so perhaps have a protocol in place if you encounter this.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

ToeOfDog said:


> It is interesting how the Moderators react to a post by a person who has a financial interest in selling a product banned by the rules of this sub forum.
> 
> "This forum is for those who wish to discuss Treatment-Free Beekeeping, not for them to be required to defend it. There is no need to discuss commercial or other methods of beekeeping. .... Any post advocating the use of treatments, according to the forum definition of treatment will be considered off topic and shall be moved to another forum or deleted by a moderator, unless it is employed as part of a plan in becoming treatment free. ......."
> 
> This must be the reason i have gone from reading this subforum five time a day to once every 5 days.


I hardly think you are being fair to SNL. He was responding to a post that claimed treating made bees weaker or sicker and simply pointed out that this was not the case. He did not suggest you or anyone should treat with OVA or anything else. Doing such a treatment is your choice. If you do not wish him to respond to someones false claim why did you not respond and tell the person he was wrong? Then there would be no argument as you sell nothing. It is simply nonsense that treatment automatically always leads to bad results. If you went to the doctor and had bacterial pneumonia and he told you your choice was to take antibiotics or die what would you do? Those antibiotics are not going to kill you they are going to save you. But, I am not going to tell you that you have to take them. That also is your choice. It is none of my business if you wish to die as long as you hurt no one else doing it.

This forum's rules forbid telling anyone to treat and SNL did not violate that rule. They do not forbid responding to untrue statements by other posters and giving an example to illustrate they are wrong as far as I can tell. Now, perhaps the participants on this sub forum want a rule that forbids all mention of treatments of any kind even if used for illustration purposes. If so I think the TF participants should keep 100% of their treatment free comments off other sub forums simply to be fair and equal.

Dick


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Richard Cryberg said:


> It is simply nonsense that treatment automatically always leads to bad results. If you went to the doctor and had bacterial pneumonia and he told you your choice was to take antibiotics or die what would you do? Those antibiotics are not going to kill you they are going to save you.


As far as you go I think you are right Dick. But its worth pointing out there is a larger context here. I'm sure many farm animals look very healthy on their diets of antibiotics too. That doesn't mean there isn't a systemic problem. If you step back: antibiotics are steadily losing their effectiveness because of systematic farm use as growth promoters. That's a big serious problem. If you step back: bees are stuck in a pathetic cycle of treat-need-to-treat because beekeepers think they look healthy after treatment (apparently). I'm sure mite-vulnerable bees do. That doesn't mean its the whole picture. Its easy to take a limited view and be right.

Mike (UK)


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Richard Cryberg said:


> I hardly think you are being fair to SNL. He was responding to a post that claimed treating made bees weaker or sicker and simply pointed out that this was not the case. He did not suggest you or anyone should treat with OVA or anything else. Doing such a treatment is your choice. If you do not wish him to respond to someones false claim why did you not respond and tell the person he was wrong? Then there would be no argument as you sell nothing. It is simply nonsense that treatment automatically always leads to bad results. If you went to the doctor and had bacterial pneumonia and he told you your choice was to take antibiotics or die what would you do? Those antibiotics are not going to kill you they are going to save you. But, I am not going to tell you that you have to take them. That also is your choice. It is none of my business if you wish to die as long as you hurt no one else doing it.
> 
> This forum's rules forbid telling anyone to treat and SNL did not violate that rule. They do not forbid responding to untrue statements by other posters and giving an example to illustrate they are wrong as far as I can tell. Now, perhaps the participants on this sub forum want a rule that forbids all mention of treatments of any kind even if used for illustration purposes. If so I think the TF participants should keep 100% of their treatment free comments off other sub forums simply to be fair and equal.
> 
> Dick


doesn't make that particular colony of bees weaker I'll give you that , but keeps weak bees alive thus making the entire population as a whole weaker........which is the exact opposite of what this subforum is about


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Mike_bispham
>Add John Kufus to your reading list. He is the architect of the 'bond test' which is what you'll be doing.

Where do I find his research?

Also, I am wondering about foundationless deeps, should I wire them for support or put a paint stick halfway: down vertically or across horizontally. Wiring looks fairly difficult without that special board.
Without foundation on any frames and using feral bees, and with no drawn comb to start with for a proper example, I am doubtful I will get perfect combs on rectangular frames. Should I grab some foundation sheets for the center of the brood box (I have a deep). I would like to do the right thing to encourage the right comb construction due to everyone's emphasis on how good comb and bad comb have domino effects with foundationless.

Also if I get my nuc box, will putting one frame of honey from a medium super be a recipe for disaster if the others are all deeps? I know there is an issue with running different sized equipment...in which case would it be best to use my two deeps on one hive and all mediums on another to enable me the ability to move brood frames upward in each for hive manipulation to prevent swarming and expand etc? In this case I could use two nucs, one for mediums and one for deeps to correspond to my equipment. 

I just want to hear what you think would work well for my particular case since I am limited on amount of hives yet with Tf will likely need to split and make nucs etc. I don't have the experience to know if it's a big deal to put mediums in a deep nuc or if manipulation of the brood nest via moving frames vertically will be all important and therefore a good idea to keep each hive with a set size of box.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

John Kefuss: A few leads for you here. He tends to keep his head down.

Comments on: “Varroa destructor: research avenues towards sustainable control” 
Robert G Danka1*, Thomas E Rinderer1, Marla Spivak2 and John Kefuss3 

We agree with Dietemann et al. (2012) that the effectiveness of IPM programmes (presumably including genetically resistant bees) for varroa control, depends on the dedication and proficiency of individual beekeepers. Our experience is that small-scale beekeepers are further ahead than large-scale beekeepers in acceptance of resistant bees. This is understandable, because commercial beekeepers are necessarily more averse to risks and the technology is new. However, the rate of adoption of agricultural technology tends to follow a logarithmic trend. Thus the adoption of resistant strains can be expected to accelerate, in part because of recent advances in basic IPM of varroa (e.g. improved sampling techniques for large-scale beekeeping; Lee et al., 2010) and in knowledge about the negative effects of acaricides on bees (e.g. Johnson et al., 2009). 

http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFile.../515-Danka--Comments on Varroa destructor.pdf

http://www.meamcneil.com/John Kefuss Keeping Bees That Keep Themselves.pdf

http://www.natuerliche-bienenhaltung.ch/pdf/Kefuss.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oggGxRRa14g

As to comb: I usually use 2 or three frames of built comb and the rest 1/2" or so of starter strip, and the bees usually know what to do themselves. 

I don't wire or support, but I do take great care lifting and holding frames if they are not yet fixed all round, especially in warm weather.

If I have more comb to hand, and am not reserving it for later use, I give it new swarms alternately (I think this is what some call checkerboarding?), or one in three. 

I often put medium frames in deeps, and the bees often extend them to within 1/2 of the bottom. Its a minor pain. 

Honestly, just do stuff and see what happens. 

Just prioritise making lots of comb and lots of bees by feeding, and getting more swarms. Most of your energy should be going into building hives and boxes, unless you can afford to buy them. Feed the bees and let them build. Don't forget a swarm shrinks for the first month or so, and won't build much after midsummer. You have to help and persuade it if you want to think about a late split. I've never doe it, but if I has cash to spare I might think about buying plastic comb at this stage just to help them get ahead quick.

Be patient, and have a big plan, and don't fiddle about with them.

Mike (UK)


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

I figured the bees would do that to a medium frame. 
I think in will jog on over to the bee supply for a few sheets of foundation to checkerboard in the hives. 

I think I may feed sugar syrup for the first year to encourage building comb and then avoid it in the future. 
I am watching that Gideon tonight, thanks.
I think I may have a lead on a mentor a few cities away with TF!


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

This quote above (from the OP, on page 2) simply cracks me up:



> I do think it's ridiculous to manipulate animals to the extremes we do and blindly accept such high statistics of illness, disease, malformations and dependency upon intervention just to survive, not thrive-that goes for dairy cows to bees to show dogs...oh and that goes for monocrops and almonds too. I respect a natural creature's abilities and appearance and function. I like harmony, not exploitation. That sounds like a hippy said that.


I happen to think it is ridiculous, or at least misguided, to "blindly accept the statistics of illness and disease, malformations, etc.," that arise from failing to adequately control varroa mites, when necessary. My bees are all from local feral sources (or the open-mated daughters of same) and they would not survive in their continued, long-lived excellent health without sufficient attention to varroa suppression. Some of my original marked queens are heading into their fourth summer with me, laying like champs. 

I, too, value harmony, not (animal) exploitation in my apiary, and with my farm animals (when I had them) and I accept my responsibility to do what I can to make their lives better in any way I can. I will _not_ sacrifice them to my own human-centric notions about some standard of TF purity.

There are some acaricides which I will not use because of their undesirable properties (environmental consequences to the bees, their hive environment, or the larger world), but I still accept that it is my obligation to succesfully manage mites in my colonies in order not to spread the harm they can do to feral colonies, and my neighbors' managed bees. I will_ not_ put my own food-purity preferences ahead of those concerns.

And that is being said by a "hippy", because I am one, and have been for almost half a century.

Enj.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

enjambres said:


> Some of my original marked queens are heading into their fourth summer with me, laying like champs.


The bee tree at my moms house are headed into their 5th summer ( since I've been counting) and by the looks of the last orientation flight I saw, they are doing just fine so what is your point?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

My apologies, I just now realized I was in the treatment free forum, duh, I am so sorry for my outburst. Best of luck to you all.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

RayMarler said:


> My apologies, I just now realized I was in the treatment free forum, duh, I am so sorry for my outburst. Best of luck to you all.


I don't speak for all the TF member here, but I for one appreciate the apology, mistakes happen it's a class act when you own up to them. Most folks don't care and rip away anyways. You are good people Ray.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

You are all a class act for not calling me on it at all, very nice of you all, top notch people in this thread.

I'm all for TF, but realize over the years that it will not work in my location, and that genetics are not the only thing needed to make it. Location counts for an awful lot. Best of luck to DIYMom and you all, I'd be right there with you if I could. Indeed, I've tried being TF for over a decade, it just didn't work out for me in the locations I've raised bees.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Ray, thanks for the info, I know the posts all appear with the rest of the forum posts somewhere and it doesn't have a big sign on it informing people of our exclusive rules...no big deal, you figured it out.

I don't think Tf would work everywhere from what it sounds like...but I've found out enough to know that it will here where I am if I source the right bees and try the right things. I just found a whole group of people who can sustain their feral hives without treating varroa. Sorry it isn't working where you are. At least you are using the heavy stuff. 

If it wasn't for this tiny subforum, I'd probably be unfairly killing packaged bees for a year. Now I'm rehoming a feral colony with a good chance of mite resistance...we will see how it goes.

I'd say the domestic beekeeping world has been on a roller coaster since varroa and it may slow down again and become better. There are so many places breeding for mite tolerance that it may catch on. Maybe you could requeen with something along those lines and have successes in TF one day down the road.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The difficulty Ray faces is an onslaught of managed and treated bees that bring overwhelming loads of mites into his area. His bees pick up the mites in such quantities that they require treatment multiple times per year. Without treatment, they are wiped out in short order. We are trying to get some TF queens to him so he can make a few steps in the right direction. With time, I'm certain that all bees will be bred with genetic tolerance to varroa mites.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

enjambres said:


> I happen to think it is ridiculous, or at least misguided
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


What do you say to those who point out that by maintaining lines that need treatments you are condemning future generations to a worse future?

'Husbandry' is first and foremost about taking care of the health of a population on an intergenerational basis. Treating an open mating animal goes directly against that first aim and principle.

Just who is misguided here?

Mike (UK)


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

> All we have are tests that range from not so good to meaningless for tests. The oft used mite drop on a sticky board falls close to the meaningless end.


Not so meaningless. I think it's good for showing a trend over time, even if you can't translate it into a hard number of x% mite load. Observing the trend can give you a good, and useful, idea of what is happening.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Maybe a stupid question, but does anyone make their own sticky board using spray adhesive? It wouldn't be too hard. I think in will try it on some artist board and see how it goes. 
I want to see all the stuff coming out of my hive and when over a year or whatever...I do think it's valuable information to record. For a beginner, it will really give me a better grasp on what's going on when and when the bees may be more stressed. 
I have one hive with a screened bottom board and another without. Would it be a good idea to modify the other to be screened and be able to compare both hives?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Contact paper works. Cut a piece, tape it to your plastic insert and it'll do the job.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

diymom, how many colonies are you expecting to keep?



Harley Craig said:


> The bee tree at my moms house are headed into their 5th summer ( since I've been counting) and by the looks of the last orientation flight I saw, they are doing just fine so what is your point?


Well... are you willing to take bets that the queen in there is going into her 5th summer...?


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Contact paper! Perfect! I can definitely do that.

How many colonies? 2 with the option to make some nucs and have a spare hive... everything points to having two in the beginning as being a better choice than one with not much more work involved. I have space for 3 hives and 2-3 nucs and that's my total capacity unless I move things onto my roof-but that would be way more work for me to check on them. I am going to set up two hives and get two swarms from different areas. Then I will build a few nuc boxes or buy some... and we will see where it takes me. I am going to try very hard to keep just two hives and two nucs or 3 hives depending on the time of year and work I need to do.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

As long as you're honest with yourself about the likelihood that you're *probably* going to be losing a lot of your hives on and off to varroa, I don't see why you can't do it. But be real with the expectations you have. If your goal is simply to be TF dead bees be ****ed, then go for it. It just seems like some of the people who are whole-heartedly against using chemicals are the ones losing bees to varroa but blaming it on GMO, neonic, cell phones, batteries, solar flares, magnetic pole shift, etc etc.

Understand that TF doesn't just mean "I don't treat and my bees don't die." With a couple hives it's no real big loss if they die out every 2-3 years and you can find a source for bees that survive that long. If you can get over the feeling (if it's one you even have) that you're going to breed some super bee with a couple of hives in your backyard and stay on top of what's going on with them, I think you'll do fine.


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> As long as you're honest with yourself


Everything jw wrote here would apply to me. I wanted to keep bees for so long, that when I was ready to jump in, I had this fantasy land idea in my head. I forced my self to stop, and study every book and every website I could, went to bee meetings, and visited other peoples beehives, to properly educate myself. Due to taking an extra year to learn, I was able to approach this with a better understanding.

I have access to setup several different bee yards, one of them will be TF, but that will not happen for at least another year. 

Good luck diymom, I look forward to reading your post.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> diymom, how many colonies are you expecting to keep?
> 
> 
> 
> Well... are you willing to take bets that the queen in there is going into her 5th summer...?



I know for a fact they aren't I missed a swarm off it 2 yrs ago, but it's the same continuous colony


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> I know for a fact they aren't I missed a swarm off it 2 yrs ago, but it's the same continuous colony


Ohhh boy, now we're going to have a "what's a colony" debate.  opcorn:


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

jwcarlson said:


> Ohhh boy, now we're going to have a "what's a colony" debate.


What would be the point of that? A continuous colony is a continuous colony. All that can be questioned is the likelihood and evidence of continuity.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's so nice to have a treatment free forum so everyone can tell you how impossible it is... (sarcasm meter at 21...)

There are many people in your area keeping bees without treatments. The Backward Beekeepers is one group. 
http://www.backwardsbeekeepers.com/

Here's another group in the general area:
http://honeylove.org/


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Of course they have numbers to back up their claims, right?


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

jwcarlson, I know I'll probably lose some bees, I think most beginners do...i am one of those hope for the best and prepare for the worst... so I can handle the swing whichever way it goes. I usually succeed in my endeavors, and that confidence helps from keeping me down when I do fail. 

I am immersing myself in learning...my house is becoming untidy...uhoh....but now my two small sons are obsessing about bees and honey. They got out my entomology books and found the one page with honeycomb and a bee on it...i was floored, that was my 20month old kid who pointed it out to me. Guess the youtube videos are getting to them, that or the comb honey samples. We spend a lot of time with insects in our yard already...we are kinda weird I guess.

Wow, Michael Bush! I have been watching hours of your presentations! Wish I could come to bee camp!
Thanks for the direction, found someone on honeylove who is starting out a few swarms and giving them away, wish it were in nuc boxes... but I will be giving him a call if I can't ingratiate myself to some local bee rescuers and get help with sourcing something closer when I see them tomorrow.

I think since LA just recently lifted their beekeeping ban, that they have a really good base for TF survivor bees. Their ferals could be very resistant to varroa. 

The easy to find clubs and beeks seem to favor packages and treatments, the TF beeks are much harder to find and seem to prefer feral swarms... it's such an amusing and totally variable world. And it's just one kind of insect!


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@DIYMOM,

Contact paper is not a good idea inside the hive (too many chemicals in the stick-down goo for my taste.) And it's not reusable, so you'll be constantly buying more.

An excellent way to run sticky boards is to use the conventional white corrugated plastic boards lightly coated with any type of cooking oil, particularly oil that you may feel is not quite up to high-grade kitchen use. In my kitchen we mostly use olive oils, which can go off if not used up promptly. I collect these odds and ends and re-purpose them as the sticky part of the mite-monitoring process. I have one of those plastic squeeze bottles with a pointed cap (like the ones at hot-dog stands for squirting condiments) filled with the oil tucked into my in-apiary storage box. I squirt on a tablespoon-sized blob and spread it evenly with a paper towel and that's quite enough stick-i-fi-cation to capture (and mostly kill, it's rare to see a live one) the mites until you have a chance to count them. 

And it makes it easy to clean and reuse the board endlessly. I scrape mine directly into the trash in warm weather (to keep SHB larvae from reaching the soil to pupate), or scrape it onto the ground in the depths of an upstate NY winter when nothing outside will survive the temps anyway. I have a 6" wide, dry-wall mud "knife", just a scraper really, that I use for scraping the hive-floor junk off the board once I'm done picking through it. A few swipes and the board is clean (enough) and ready to re-oiled and re-inserted. I keep my stickies in all the time, but only make a point of scraping them clean on Sunday and counting mites on Wednesday evening. The rest of the time I just snoop through the debris to see what's going on inside the colony.

Here's a tip: Get a large sized paper clip and insert it into the board on the centerline about 1/4" in from one of the short edges. Work it around until it makes a little flippy tab, that you can use to snag the board through the narrow slot. And since you're in a warm-weather area, set your stack up so the slot is in the rear of the hive. That way you can pull and re-insert the board with no attention from the bees. (In the winter here I make sure to turn my screen bottom boards around so the slot can be accessed from under the front entrance which is the only area not covered with insulation. In those temps the bees aren't paying any attention to the outside of the hive in any case.)

And yes, I would add a SBB to each stack. I run with both a solid board and SBB on each hive all the time. My colonies are quite different from one another - more so than I would have expected at the outset - so what appears on the boards is very different, too. Starting out, I learned a great deal from closely studying those differences. Since you may be caring for swarms, I think you may find the same situation. As a trained observer of insects you may find it especially thought-provoking to check out their trash heaps.

Enj.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> It's so nice to have a treatment free forum so everyone can tell you how impossible it is... (sarcasm meter at 21...)
> 
> Especially when its so obvious that the feral bee situation is so vibrant and kicking in some areas. In LA, in New Orleans where people are making a decent living doing cutouts from structures. For the most part these aren't escapees from beekeepers.
> 
> Now in my area, the feral bee situation is not so well known, there isn't as much uninsulated void space and I will probably have a tougher time of TF compared to these areas. But I have more bees than last year, I didn't buy them, and have a couple of strategies in mind to help them limp along.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Enjambres,
So you insert the oiled board on a bottom board that is solid without a screen so it is inside the hive? If that's the case don't the bees crawl on it? Sorry if I am not understanding. Would you have to remove all entrance reducers or does your bottom board have a slot in the back for a plastic sheet to be inserted?
I do like the concept and can see myself doing that with the screened bottom board, yet don't know if it works inside a hive with a solid bottom board. 
Thanks for the technique, I think that's a good way to do a sticky board. I thought the $4 a pop for new sticky paper was silly. Seems there are lots of DIY options for beekeeping which I like.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

diymom said:


> jwcarlson, I know I'll probably lose some bees, I think most beginners do...


While most beginners probably do, your position is one of accepting that loss as necessary or to be expected. For things like a drone layer out of the gate, or a queen failure really early one, or a package that absconds for some reason... I'd agree that it's just an unlucky roll of the dice. But we're talking about something entirely different. There's nothing that sets back your learning to be a beekeeper than constantly loosing all or most of your bees. And if you've got only 1 or 2 hives, the odds are probably going to be good that you're starting from scratch relatively frequently. 
I believe that the blueprint is out there if you're willing to pragmatically look at all the sources and devise a plan. I'm a beginner (going into 3rd year) and haven't lost a hive going through winter yet. But I don't practice faith-based beekeeping, so maybe that helps?  While I'm certain that there are places in the country that allow for beekeepers to practice TF and have decent success, it doesn't seem to be portable by many accounts. And California has a whole lot of bees around that aren't exactly ripe to attempt TF beekeeping with most likely.

Either way, best of luck!


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

jwcarlson said:


> While I'm certain that there are places in the country that allow for beekeepers to practice TF and have decent success, it doesn't seem to be portable by many accounts.


Portable? 

Mike (UK)


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

He is alluding to the common observation that bees that survive treatment free in one area do not survive if queens are transported to a different region. I have not seen this which makes me wonder what other factors are in play. I have bees in two locations 150 miles apart. I established bees in both locations by transporting queens back and forth.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

There are several "TF" beekeepers around here that have success but they aren't TF (they're chemical free). They feed their bees and do other manipulations like drone comb freezing. OTS queen rearing is another thing they do...well one does. Pollen patties that have HBH in them etc. so they aren't TF by the site definition at all but ask them and they'll tell you they're TF without blinking an eye. 
They're good beekeepers too.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

lharder said:


> Especially when its so obvious that the feral bee situation is so vibrant and kicking in some areas. In LA, in New Orleans where people are making a decent living doing cutouts from structures. For the most part these aren't escapees from beekeepers.


I am 200 miles north of LA, and I believe I am familiar with some of the issues. The LA Basin has Africanized Honey Bees, and they are not pleasant neighbors. There are regular dog killings from AHB in San Diego, Los Angeles Basin, Santa Maria, etc. I keep a clipping file on these incidents.

The TF splinter groups that make up the membership of the various "TF" clubs in the greater LA region promote the idea that the feral bees are "misunderstood" and their aggressive nature is no longer an issue.... explain that to the dog owners. The TF'ers are engaged in a "reality distortion field" that would make Steve Jobs blush.

Tyson Kaiser, frequently mentioned by LHarder, was on this forum (2012-2015) and when he left he had 3 years of experience from a cold start and 15 hives. If 10% of his hives were aggressive (and he is in the business of marketing them, so has a conflict of interest in his reporting), that meant 1.5 hives. What does that mean? Only the top box of a double was aggressive? In short, the "percentages" are suspect.

Are Africanized Bees hardier? They swarm repeatedly, as frequently as 2 x per month. They maintain multiple queens, and engage in absconding and usurpation behavior. They have adopted behavioral adaptations that maximize their fitness in the prescence of Varroa. Is this strain of bees appropriate to urban beekeeping with small children?

My answer is *NO*. 

I have buried colleagues in Costa Rica and Mexico, brave victims of a "machismo" attitude to AHB. It troubles me that a sophomore beekeeper from Canada is promoting the self-serving meme that AHB are just misunderstood pets.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

lharder said:


> In LA, in New Orleans where people are making a decent living doing cutouts from structures.


Lharder, do you mean "LA" to refer to Louisiana or Los Angeles?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

mike bispham said:


> What would be the point of that? A continuous colony is a continuous colony. All that can be questioned is the likelihood and evidence of continuity.


If they are bringing in pollen in late Feb and continue to do so all yr long good enough evidence? If any new swarms have moved in they were usurpation swarms. It's 20 ft from my mom's back door she stops and watches them for a bit each eve when she gets home and I check them most weekends when I visit


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

I just stumbled on a informal group of beek buddies who are on a whole different level of bee keeping...their strategy is to put out hives, protect them from ants and harvest honey at the end of the season...the bees just come and go...no swarm control, manipulation, not even any inspections really, sometimes they rotate brood comb ... they just let the feral bees do their thing...no treatments, nothing.... the main guy who mentored all of them has been keeping hives in southern California for 73 years...he is 83... sooooooo..... 
He keeps no notes and he says his hives are always full. That they swarm a lot more than they used to but he always has colonies in residence and they are quite mellow bees. He keeps them up in the foothills about 40 miles inland from me. He has 300 hives now and has had for over a decade. He said that he didn't notice much of a change with the onset of varroa...his hives have always produced and been occupied. This sounds like the polar opposite of everything I've been learning... he said to just leave them alone and do their thing and they like it just fine. Pretty crazy...but I guess it works for him where they are located. He says he never really sees empty hives...probably due to the swarming equilibrium...
I'm dumbfounded. No management really, just free, ant free housing with occasional housekeeping. 
Anyway he is giving me a swarm he picked up last week this Saturday, they are building comb on wax foundation and have brood already...sooooooo cool.
I felt like I was in the twilight zone...I was asking all these questions about culling drone brood, varroa resistance, vsh queens, foundationless frames, different treatments they might be using, and preemptive swarm maneuvering....it was like I was speaking Greek. They had no idea what some of those concepts were...one guy asked me how to prevent swarming... they all just let the bees do what they want and then harvest the honey... very simple.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Deleted by user
(Double post)


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

JWChesnut said:


> I am 200 miles north of LA, and I believe I am familiar with some of the issues. The LA Basin has Africanized Honey Bees, and they are not pleasant neighbors. There are regular dog killings from AHB in San Diego, Los Angeles Basin, Santa Maria, etc. I keep a clipping file on these incidents.
> 
> The TF splinter groups that make up the membership of the various "TF" clubs in the greater LA region promote the idea that the feral bees are "misunderstood" and their aggressive nature is no longer an issue.... explain that to the dog owners. The TF'ers are engaged in a "reality distortion field" that would make Steve Jobs blush.
> 
> ...


That is a good point, for a back yard colony, even if these local bees can go without treatment, are they appropriate for a suburban or urban area with proximity to people? I hadn't thought of it. That really should be the first consideration.
I'll be discussing it with a few people who have such hives to determine if the feral bees would be the best choice in my landscape...best case scenario I can requeen with vsh queen right away...worst case I have to get a different kind of bee.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

diymom said:


> He keeps no notes and he says his hives are always full. [...] I felt like I was in the twilight zone...I was asking all these questions about culling drone brood, varroa resistance, vsh queens, foundationless frames, different treatments they might be using, and preemptive swarm maneuvering....it was like I was speaking Greek. They had no idea what some of those concepts were...one guy asked me how to prevent swarming... they all just let the bees do what they want and then harvest the honey... very simple.


Sounds like you met an interesting species of traditional bee husbandryman! A breath of fresh air doesn't cover it. He probably doesn't get fantastic yields, but probably gets more honey per input hour than anyone else. 

I'm curious; did you happen to find out if he used queen excluders? 

Do keep us posted about your meetings with these guys will you?

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

JWChesnut said:


> The LA Basin has Africanized Honey Bees, and they are not pleasant neighbors.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Are Africanized Bees hardier?


JW could you tell us please what an 'Africanised bee' is? 

Is it a bee with 10% African genes for example? 20%? Does it matter which genes they are, or would any 20% do?

Or is it an aggressive colony that has likely gained a high level of aggression through African genetic input? 

Or is it a strain of bees that has maintained high levels of aggression due to ongoing active predation? 

What I'm getting at is; is it a genetic description, or a behavioural one? 

I'm not doubting the existence of highly aggressive strains of bees with genetic components originating in the African experiments, or the need for caution. I just want to know how you are managing, conceptually speaking, the shading of their genes into local strains. 

Mike (UK)


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

mike bispham said:


> JW could you tell us please what an 'Africanised bee' is?
> 
> Is it a bee with 10% African genes for example? 20%? Does it matter which genes they are, or would any 20% do?
> 
> Or is it an aggressive colony that has likely gained a high level of aggression through African genetic input?


Mike, that is obscurantist handwaving.

The study,* Range and Frequency of Africanized Honey Bees in California (USA)*, shows that in San Diego County 70% of 'feral' bees are of African mitotype. The study further coroborates studies done in Texas and elsewhere that demonstrate that African genes (and mitotypes) dominate after contact. Viz: Pinto (2004) and Whitfield (2007)

The Kono (2015) study is circumspect in behavioral analysis (they did not measure this), but point out that extreme aggression has selective advantage for AHB over most of its expanded range. Those genotypes with aggressive traits will be amplified by natural selection in feral swarms quickly. 

Kono has evidence of bi-directional hybridization in the AHB of California, and show that bee size conforms to Bergman's Rule -- latitude correlates with size. 

In summary, San Diego feral bees are dominated by pure African mitotype. No evidence that these bees have become less aggressive is presented, and the selective advantage of extreme aggression in feral bees is undiluted. Kono shows that managed hives in San Diego are only 13% African mitotype -- indicating that beekeepers do not tolerate the feral race in their apiaries.

The current "local survivor" mania proposes to amplify and distribute the feral race to naive, gullible new urban beekeepers. They are doing this with the aid of a "reality distortion" theme which claims that AHB have become "California Surfer Cool" and are mellow and chillin'. Totally irresponsible in my book.

I have an unlikely supporter in Solomon Parker, who after his first encounter with Dee Lusby bees this February (patently African), reported strong aversion to keeping bees that would rather kill you. I had rather hoped that his encounter and distaste for the "reality distortion" that has grown up around the Lusby mythos would cause his to re-evaluate his own prejudices.

Citation:
Kono Y, Kohn JR (2015) Range anrequency of Africanized Honey Bees in Californi(USA). PLoS ONE 10(9): e0137407. doi:10.1371/ journal.pone.0137407

Pinto MA, Rubink WL, Coulson RN, Patton JC, Johnston JS. Temporal pattern of Africanization in a feral honeybee population from Texas inferred from mitochondrial DNA. Evolution 2004; 58:1047–1055. PMID: 15212385

Whitfield CW, Behura SK, Berlocher SH, Clark AG, Johnston JS, Sheppard WS, et al. Thrice out of
Africa: ancient and recent expansions of the honey bee, Apis mellifera. Science 2007; 314: 642–645.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

mike bispham said:


> Sounds like you met an interesting species of traditional bee husbandryman! A breath of fresh air doesn't cover it.


She found Yoda. We'll have to move him.



> He probably doesn't get fantastic yields, but probably gets more honey per input hour than anyone else.


If he wants more honey, he puts another hive up. Low impact beekeeping. But how big is his truck.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

JWChesnut said:


> Mike, that is obscurantist handwaving.


No, it was a necessary question, which you've gone some way to addressing. Thanks.

Does this not clash with your interpretation of the necessary relation between mitotype and behaviour?

Mitotype vs Genotype

"Let me state that I am no geneticist, and the arcane terminology of the field gives me a headache. But there’s something that I’d like to make clear about the pie charts of mitochondrial DNA (mitotype) inheritance that I included in the last article. Mitotypes are useful for tracking matrilines, since they can only be passed from mother to daughter. But it is nuclear DNA (genotype) that codes for the form, color, behavior, and disease resistance of bees. The two types of DNA are largely independent [4], meaning that although mitotype is useful for tracking pedigree, it is mostly genotype that is involved in selective breeding for observable characteristics."
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...nd-tradeoffs-in-fitness/#mitotype-vs-genotype

Is there any evidence that these feral bees carrying African maternal genes are not amenable to breeding out of aggression?

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Riverderwent said:


> But how big is his truck.


Aghh! There had to be flaw somewhere!

Mike (UK)


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

mike bispham said:


> Sounds like you met an interesting species of traditional bee husbandryman! A breath of fresh air doesn't cover it. He probably doesn't get fantastic yields, but probably gets more honey per input hour than anyone else.
> 
> I'm curious; did you happen to find out if he used queen excluders?
> 
> ...


He is nothing else but old school, like ww2 era beekeeping. Low Tec, low maintenance, harmonious, stress free beekeeping. It's another world apart from on this forum with its skilled hive manipulation, queen rearing, treatment capabilities and worrying varroa dead outs... he didn't balk at the AHB, he didn't seem to notice any changes other than frequent swarming being the new norm. I will ask about queen excludes, something tells me it's a NO, he doesn't seem to want to interfere much with the bees' way of doing things.
I think I will try to obtain some stock from his bee yard in the future after observing them over a season or two. He has such a huge part influencing/monitoring the bee population in the area with the operation over the duration he has had.

I'm also considering moving my hives up to my roof if the bees do prove to be aggressive on any level. I do have young children to consider first. I have several other properties I can keep the bees at with less convenience via some real smooth negotiating if the bees prove totally incompatible. It appears that is part of the gamble with feral bees and a consideration I need to make.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

mike bispham said:


> Is there any evidence that these feral bees carrying African maternal genes are not amenable to breeding out of aggression?


Of course. The BWeaver lineage shows that with a *huge* selection pool, a hybrid African bee with diminished aggression is possible. Emphasis on *huge, continuing selection* effort.

What you fail to appreciate is the fundamental lesson I have been trying to communicate to your unlistening ears for two years: *Bees will revert to the population norm*. 

The current "feral survivor" protocol in the LA Basin is: 1) put some water-meter bees in a box, 2) sell them to a suburban hipster, 3) hope for the best. 

Those water-meter bees represent the population norm -- and that is documented to be AHB.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

mike bispham said:


> No, it was a necessary question, which you've gone some way to addressing. Thanks.
> 
> Does this not clash with your interpretation of the necessary relation between mitotype and behaviour?
> 
> ...


I read somewhere that when mated-queens retain more of the ahb genetics and dump other genes...I am going to have to look for that and then determine if it was a credible source and then amend my post... I haven't heard of that other than anecdotally anywhere else I've heard genetics mentioned...however, the multiple matings via many drones to one queen is a less common scenario within the animal kingdom. I Don't know how one would test this accurately to reach this conclusion.

Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post

Sounds like you met an interesting species of traditional bee husbandryman! A breath of fresh air doesn't cover it.

David>She found Yoda. We'll have to move him.

I laughed a lot at this. Now Lewis has a new nickname. I don't think anyone on this forum has 73 years experience. The force is strong with this one.

Mike>He probably doesn't get fantastic yields, but probably gets more honey per input hour than anyone else.

David>If he wants more honey, he puts another hive up. Low impact beekeeping. But how big is his truck.

I think his low impact philosophy extends to pretty much everything including his vehicle...he is a true gem.


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

JWChesnut said:


> Of course. The BWeaver lineage shows that with a *huge* selection pool, a hybrid African bee with diminished aggression is possible. Emphasis on *huge, continuing selection* effort.


I wonder, since BWeaver had such a large population of bees, that it greatly reduced the spread of AHB through out Texas and northward, or does the effect of cooler climate play a larger role?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Which is why I said, assess for temperament and have plan B. Get someone who is TF and experienced to help you assess.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I have buried colleagues in Costa Rica and Mexico, brave victims of a "machismo" attitude to AHB. It troubles me that a sophomore beekeeper from Canada is promoting the self-serving meme that AHB are just misunderstood pets.[/QUOTE]

Any more words you want to put in my mouth? 

Now if you got off your mountaintop and interacted with some of these people and worked with their bees a bit then you could have an honest assessment of the range of bees you find and the people working with them. If you come out of it with a black and white assessment then you haven't really been paying attention. Do you think the above twisting of a position is an honest assessment of my views?


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

JWChesnut said:


> The current "feral survivor" protocol in the LA Basin is: 1) put some water-meter bees in a box, 2) sell them to a suburban hipster, 3) hope for the best.


Ahhh, suburban hipsters...this is funny. And true. They desperately need something to tweet about.

not that I'm the expert on the club, but from what I've seen on their site and by talking to Tyson, he won't allow his hives to be given away without an interview and potential mentoting (probably follow-up too) and he expects the same of other members who are sharing swarms or hives. They have a trial period where he or they monitor the new colony for several weeks to a month before determining if their temperament is acceptable for the urban/suburban landscape...of course that's all in the eye of the beholder. They do have a bunch of legal standards as laid out by the county to adhere to when passing off bees and I think they take it more seriously than you are implying. In any event, he isn't here to defend himself, so it's unfair to continue speculating upon his motives and standards whatever they may be.

I think feral bees have a parallel in canine pit bulls: potential for great pets or lethal dangers depending on the individual, owner or environment. Beekeeping seems to have a lot more risk of danger than say, gardening, and there are no guarantees that any colony of bees will have predictable behavior especially in the hands of a beginner. In a suburban or urban landscape, they could pose a great danger, probably why it's been outlawed in many municipalities. I don't really know what to say other than success and safety in such a landscape are unpredictable.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

JWChesnut said:


> Of course. The BWeaver lineage shows that with a *huge* selection pool, a hybrid African bee with diminished aggression is possible. Emphasis on *huge, continuing selection* effort.


Can you quantify 'huge' for me JW?

Can you also quantify 'hybrid' for me? Could you respond to Randy's account of the relationship between aggression and mitotype that I posted above?



JWChesnut said:


> What you fail to appreciate is the fundamental lesson I have been trying to communicate to your unlistening ears for two years: *Bees will revert to the population norm*.


And what I have been trying to communicate to you is: bees, like all other life forms, respond to their environment through natural selection. Aggression is expensive; if it doesn't convey an advantage it will fade. The 'population norm' is what works best, here, now.

That's the way life works.

Mike (UK)


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> In summary, San Diego feral bees are dominated by pure African mitotype. No evidence that these bees have become less aggressive is presented, and the selective advantage of extreme aggression in feral bees is undiluted. Kono shows that managed hives in San Diego are only 13% African mitotype -- indicating that beekeepers do not tolerate the feral race in their apiaries.


Aggressiveness is a serious selective disadvantage in my apiaries.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

diymom said:


> It's another world apart from on this forum with its skilled hive manipulation, queen rearing, treatment capabilities and worrying varroa dead outs...


For some reason that makes me think of a line from a Seinfeld episode.
George: "People think I'm smart, but I'm not smart."
Jerry: "Who thinks you're smart?"


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@DIYMom,

I am afraid I misunderstood you about sticky boarding: I assume you had a layer of screen as the floor of the bee-part of the hive, perhaps with a solid floor below that, as I do.

Sticky boarding only works well if the mites can fall through to a place from which they can not re-enter the hive, or hitch a ride on a passing bee back into the hive.

I wouldn't like to put even first-quality olive oil where the bees had to tramp through it.

Sticky-boarding is a very useful monitoring technique (if done regularly), particularly well suited to new beekeepers who are learning since it can be done w/o interaction with any bees. But it should not be consigned to freshman beekeeping and then discarded as soon as possible. Careful study of the debris on a sticky board, besides noting any mites, seems like it would be right up your alley with your training in entomology. There is lots to be learned and even after looking at hundreds and hundreds of them I rarely fail to find something interesting or noteworthy. Sometimes I'm sure what it means, exactly, but I see it and wonder.

I recommend a solid bottom board, plus a SBB, or one of the newer combo boards, so you can do stickies all the time. They are fascinating, in a weird, trashcan snooping way. Heck, you're out in LA, so you might even find one of the ubiquitous Kardashian clan on there.

(And as long as you are a _DIY_ Mom, keep an eye out for discarded plastic political signs after your Primary: cut to the proper size, painted with white paint, they make dandy free sticky boards - as well as being infinitely useful in many other ways in an apiary. I snag all I can find along the roads after each Election.)

Enj.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Here is a link to an alternative view of African bees as seen from the Brazilian point of view.

http://apisenterprises.com/papers_htm/ABJ/Beekeeping in Brazil_full.htm

Their industry is expanding rapidly as ours is failing. 

Is it possible that North American keepers are just too arrogant to visit and learn from the South American industry? Maybe the southern parts of the USA beekeeping scene are missing out on a huge opportunity by being close minded. The African bee is not going away. 

If I was in an area where Africanized bees were, I would be reading up on the South American experience.


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

Last year I read that the University of Utah was in Mexico doing gene research and reproducing those colonies that were gentler.

Was reading a paper today after my questions about climate and discovered that AHB colonies stay below 1500ft. While they have been tested and shown to survive cold climate, they prefer not to.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

enjambres said:


> @DIYMom,
> 
> I am afraid I misunderstood you about sticky boarding: I assume you had a layer of screen as the floor of the bee-part of the hive, perhaps with a solid floor below that, as I do.
> 
> ...


God I hope i don't find a Kardashian ever. 
The bottom boards...I have one hive from brushy mountain bee with the screen, another from Mann lake that is a solid bottom board. I didn't understand or like the Mann lake screened board, wish i had ordered another from brushy, but it took them an extra week to ship compared to Mann. I think I will cut out and modify the solid one...because I am a DIYer... I'll see if it's worth it...I'm only totally inundated with projects...I can always backpedal. 

I knew exactly what plastic you were speaking of...my dad has a bunch of those 1/8th inch signs he dug out of the trash and uses for all sorts of stuff... I'll get one when I am down his way. 

Pondering trash and insect waste is just another day in my life...trash is usually very revealing no matter the species which is why I opted for the screened bottom. You know you are an unusual person when you catch yourself being excited about the opportunity to observe and compare hive trash.
I even ordered a wireless printer just for pictures so I can add a visual aspect to my hive notes. It will probably be a great tool for documentation of all my hobbies.

lharder: so it's really interesting what that website was saying, though unfortunate that any supporting or cited research was likely not in English. I don't think though that any of it admonishes placement of said bees in an urban landscape. In fact it stated that removal of swarms from urban areas in Brazil is a large concern which has spurred swarm trapping strategies forward...

At this point, I think I need to seriously consider moving my hives to the roof to take every precaution. And I ordered an epi pen. If that's not enough, I will requeen which will probably serve to lessen my swarm management efforts as well as correct temperament. Now I get to figure out how to camouflage my hives up on the roof. I really want to try directing flight upward via an open top hardware cloth frame surrounding my hives first...it's still on the table. I doubt other backyard beekeepers are trying to direct flight upward...


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Build a picket fence 6 ft high with a door for access and large enough to surround your bees. Bees will naturally fly up over the fence to forage.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

That sounds like what I will be doing..more work of course...but more accessible than the roof, if it works though, it will be really great.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

diymom, probably you are overthinking it. With that interesting group around you I would just hang out with them and offer some free labour working with bees. See what the bees are like, which ones you like being around, how they are managed and then you can form opinions/management strategies based on first hand experience.


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