# Wintering nucs in a garage or shed



## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

Is it wise to winterize nucs in a shed or a garage? The entrance will be screened so they don't wander out in the garage and they will be put outside during warm spell to cleanse.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Plenty of food. 
Few mites. 
Adequate venting of moist air. 
Cold doesn't matter.


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## jjohnsind (Apr 24, 2014)

I'm no expert, but it would seem that if the temperature is too high (as in unnatural & higher than the typical winter), their metabolism would be different and they may need more food as well as cleanse more. It seems there are always problems when we try to mess with nature.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

they will be dead by spring. If they are nucs ya better start feeding heavy right now.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

Bees do very poorly confined like that- Nucs winter well outside.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

in an open shed, I see "windbreak" but probably not much solar heating. 
I understand the "way up north" folks use bee barns, and the Bavarian beehouse is an interesting concept, but other than using it as a windbreak, I tend to agree with others about bees inside.
What ever you choose to do, good luck. CE


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keep them dark, confined, adequate air exchange, temp around 4 degreeC and zero disturbance. Put them out after spring brings back warmth, when that is depends on your location. 
Free flight is a bad idea


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They can be overwintered indoors successfully but it's much more complicated to do it successfully than wintering them outdoors. You need some control over humidity, fresh air and temperature and you need to keep them dark. There have been quite a few discussions and I would listen to the people who are succeeding at it. Your intuition on many of the issues is most likely wrong.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I have wintered bees in my garage for 2 years now with great success. And I will probably do it again this year with a few small late swarms (feeding now but I don't for see them getting to be 10 frames before winter). 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291483-Bees-in-the-Garage-for-the-Winter

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?295359-Over-Wintering-in-the-Garage-Update


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Tried to teach a beekeeper about nucs several years ago. Took him out snd showed him every step, at different times of the year. Wintering his first bunch he got nervous and put them in the garage. They all died.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Mike, I have some nucs I'm planning to overwinter on my 3rd floor porch.

What I'm wondering is if (in your experience) it would be better to push them into clusters of 2 (so that both clusters can share the warmth and cluster against the divider), or to push them into 1 block (7 or 8 nucs)?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Dr. Charles C. Miller used to winter his bees indoors. He mentioned that you need to let them out on warm days.

If I lived in cold country, I'd probably consider a straw bale building to winter the bees in, just to keep them dry, but the learning curve for a SoCal boy could be pretty steep. Listen to Mssrs. Bush and Palmer, and the other long-time Northern locals.

Imagine that guy getting nuc' management lessons in person from Palmer, then doing the opposite! inch: Makes me shudder. I know that I could be that stupid back when I was a young buck, over-thinking the situation to screw everything up. I hope age is working for me by now. Listen to the guys with experience. It pays.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

deknow said:


> Mike, I have some nucs I'm planning to overwinter on my 3rd floor porch.
> 
> What I'm wondering is if (in your experience) it would be better to push them into clusters of 2 (so that both clusters can share the warmth and cluster against the divider), or to push them into 1 block (7 or 8 nucs)?


Your porch is out of doors, yes? Exposed to the winter? His garage wasn't. 

I don't know your setup. I think I've seen a photo? Anyway, they have flight in one direction? Some sunshine? I would push them together and winter in doubles or more, and wrap.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Your porch is out of doors, yes? Exposed to the winter? Anyway, they have flight in one direction? Some sunshine? I would push them together and winter in doubles or more, and wrap.


Thanks Mike. 

Yes to all (although some have entrances front and back...makes inspections more interesting). Apologies that this really isn't the proper thread....the question was on my mind and I saw your post here.

My question is really about the difference between 'doubles' and 'and more'.

I'm wondering if, in clusters of (2) 5/5 nucs, both nucs tend to cluster to the shared wall, and away from the cold outer wall...giving them synergy in keeping the non-exposed wall warm with a significantly colder exposed wall.

...whereas in a single cluster of (8) 5/5 nucs, the nucs in the middle might winter less 'clustery' due to having no exposed outer wall.

I'm familiar with your basic wintering setups (I think) for double nucs and for 4 way mating nucs....I'm wondering if you have some insight into whether having one wall 'warm' and one wall 'cold' contributes anything to the wintering process.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

In a response, I have a small carport I'm enclosing, and the only difference for me is: I don't mind them flying around in there, so it would be free-flight, have the option to heat, would only do it in subzero temps.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Free flight may not be a problem for you. That does not mean it's not a problem for them... how do they find their way back?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

reading all this makes me curious about what observation hives do in the winter when the hive is inside at room temperature but it's too cold to fly outside. do the bees stay inside? do ob-hive bees consume more or do they consume less stores since they remain active and don't have to cluster? do they get in trouble because they are active but can't take cleansing flights? could beestudent get away with it if he provides entrances to the outside and manages them like observation hives?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

If you read FlowerPlanter's post #9 in this thread, he gives 2 links. The first one goes to an old thread from 2013. The 9th post in that 2013 thread is by Merince, who also gives a link to CAPA. There is some old research on mimoegraph papers by Nelson and others.


If keeping bees indoors in the Winter, ideal is 38 to 42 degrees F, and totally dark, or they will want to fly. They will be attracted to light sources, and will not return to their hives. A fan blowing through a light trap and tubes with screens, air current 90 degrees to the rows of hives. Double doors on the structure.

These are the recommendations from research in Alberta, Canada.

That level of control is a tall order, so best to overwinter nuc's outside unless you are in extreme, severe Winter conditions for a long time. Read the postings of Northern beek's who have been doing this a while with success. I'm out fly fishing while the Northern guys are snowmobiling to the store. 

I'd cover the windows on observation hives if they were indoors - you want them DARK.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>reading all this makes me curious about what observation hives do in the winter when the hive is inside at room temperature but it's too cold to fly outside. do the bees stay inside?

Except on warm days, yes.

> do ob-hive bees consume more or do they consume less stores since they remain active and don't have to cluster?

A hive in the configuration and size of my observation hive would never survive so that's hard to say for sure. But I would say they consume more than if they are 40 F and less than if they were -40 (and capable of not dying from the cold).

> do they get in trouble because they are active but can't take cleansing flights?

No more than other hives that start rearing brood in late winter.

> could beestudent get away with it if he provides entrances to the outside and manages them like observation hives?

There are several issues. One is how do you check on them? I check on the observation hive by looking through the window. If I open a hive that is indoors and the bees fly out into the room and then I put the lid back on and the exit is through a tube, how do they get back into the hive? How else do I check on them. I'm not saying these problems can't be worked out, but they have to be dealt with.

There is much on cellaring (very similar in concept and management to the idea of indoor wintering) in the old be journals. I have the complete 1886 ABJ and there are many discussions on the matter of cellaring bees for the winter. Reading these will give you a good idea of the issues and how others have dealt with them. I have considered (and am still considering) indoor wintering, but I have yet to do it (other than my observation hive) because it is much more complicated than outdoor wintering.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

deknow said:


> My question is really about the difference between 'doubles' and 'and more'.
> 
> I'm wondering if, in clusters of (2) 5/5 nucs, both nucs tend to cluster to the shared wall, and away from the cold outer wall...giving them synergy in keeping the non-exposed wall warm with a significantly colder exposed wall.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure how much it contributes to the wintering process. It must help to some degree. One of the first things I noticed with wintering double nuclei was how they each formed a semicircular cluster against the divider, and not a cluster in the center of their cavity. 

Even C.C. Miller noticed that:
I have had weak nuclei with two combs come through in good condition during a winter in which I lost heavily; these nuclei having no extra care or protection other than being in a double hive. You would understand the reason of all this easily if in winter you would look into one of these double hives in the cellar. On each side the bees are clustered up against the division-board, and it looks exactly as if the bees had all been in one single cluster, and then the division-board pushed down, through the center of the cluster. 50 years among the bees, P. 300

While he is wintering in a cellar, I find the same wintering outdoors. One cluster with a divider in the middle. and, if they do form one cluster, then they must be helping each other.

I can't say what would happen with clusters in multiple nuc configuration as I've never done it. 

Vernon Vickery from McGill University wintered nucleus colonies in Canada in blocks:

Nucleus colonies can be wintered very well and can provide the entire answer to the dis appearing supply of “package bees”. Nucleus colonies will invariably build up more quickly and produce more honey than colonies started from “package bees”. Inside wintering of nucleus colonies is recommended for prairie beekeepers. (Gruszka, 1985)If the nucs are made up early enough (July) they can be wintered successfully in single brood chambers outside, even in the severe winters experienced in Saskatchewan. Nucs made up in August with two combs of brood can be built up, fed and wintered as four-frame nucs outside on the top of a multiple colony pack (fig.13.12). Two four-frame nucleus hives are set in the place of one single brood chamber hive. The two hives are slightly narrower than the full sized super and I routinely use a slab of one inch (2.5 cm) Styrofoam to fill in the space on the exposed side or sides. To date this method has worked very well (Vickery and Willis, 1985). p. 204 Vickery, V.R., The Honey Bee, 1991, Particle Press

I don't remember him saying how the clusters oriented.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks mb, and if i understand your comment correctly you are saying that a much smaller colony than normal that has less stores than are usually necessary can survive in an observation hive whereas they would not survive out in the weather.

i don't plan to try it, but if i were attempting beestudent's 'experiment' i wouldn't do anything with them other set them up in the enclosed carport with entrances to the outside, and listen in with a stethoscope from time to time. if they needed to be opened i would rig a way to close the box and take it outside. if 40 degrees is the optimal temperature for bees to keep warm while using the least amount of stores i would set the thermostat to that, and add some mountaincamped sugar for insurance. 

beestudent, you may be better off trying to cellar them as has been suggested above. you've got enough time to do your homework, get on it.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

beestudent said:


> In a response, I have a small carport I'm enclosing, and the only difference for me is: I don't mind them flying around in there, so it would be free-flight, have the option to heat, would only do it in subzero temps.


Do yourself a favor. Kill your bees now and save yourself the wasted time and expense of closing in and heating a structure so your bees can "free-flight" in sub-zero temperatures. 

Have you read anything about overwintering bees in northern climates? Perhaps you should before you start renovating your parents' carport.

Wayne


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Typically the issue with indoor wintering is trying to maintain a steady temp, hard to keep it down at times . 
If you can control what I just said, your area is suitable to winter indoors, if your area experiences mild temp swings , your best to prepare for outdoors


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

The idea of keeping bees indoors in an observation hive is the whole reason I'm even considering garage overwintering. My little Ulster obs hive has vents in the top of the observation tower that are clearly not meant for weather exposure. I did use it outdoors for a couple of weeks getting a nuc started, but had to rig a cover for it.

I've presently got a nuc using a 2 ft tube to a window exit on an unheated garage workshop, and it is doing fine, but August is not a good test.

Indoor obs hives are frequently rigged this way, but I would guess museums, etc., doing this retire them in the winter. Either that or they keep them comfortably warm and feed like the dickens.

One thing I'm quite clear on is bees would hate "free flight" in a closed structure. I take them outside for inspections. The occasional bee that finds its way into the workshop does just what flies do ... goes straight for a window and looks pathetic trying to get out. If it is dark out, they go for lights. Bumblebees can be raised in greenhouses, but honeybees don't adapt to it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>if i understand your comment correctly you are saying that a much smaller colony than normal that has less stores than are usually necessary can survive in an observation hive whereas they would not survive out in the weather.

A much smaller colony (e.g. an observation hive) does not have enough bees to stay warm. It's not about stores. An observation hive that has some way to feed it, can be fed all winter if necessary.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Duplicate


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i get in now michael, thanks. sounds like they would have to be kept at or near room temperature and a syrup jar or equivalent would have to be monitored and maintained.


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## La Farge Bees (Apr 27, 2013)

Is there any benefit to just moving hives into an unheated garage to keep them out of the wind in the winter?


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Other than getting everything in the garage covered in a pleasant shade of bee poop yellow the first warm day, I can't see any benefit over simply wrapping them loosely in 15# building paper. 

Wayne


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## La Farge Bees (Apr 27, 2013)

The local club warns against wrapping - says on warm days in January, the hives will overheat if wrapped and kill the bees...so I haven't wrapped, and my hives for the last two years have died anyway...maybe it's time to try the wrapping this year and see what happens. That and more straw/hay bales for wind blocks.


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## wdale (Jun 27, 2014)

I would NOT winter your bees in a garage! Open door garden shed OK for shelter from the wind, rain, and snow. The set up Ian has in Manitoba when the temp gets to sub sub zero I would have set up like that. darkness proper venting and temp VERY important in a setup up like that. The area of northern BC back in the 60 70s when there is 20 feet of snow on the ground in Jan and Feb we use to put the hive under large open air snow sheds. The temp got down to -20 -30 for stretches of Jan and Feb we would wrap hive with #15 and #20 pound felt building paper for wind breaks. The biggest thing you NEED to vent the hives both TOP and Bottom The bees die from moisture and Co2 gas build up. of the 20 or so hives that we had we only lost is 3-4 (staved out in mid March) Last year in the lower mainland in BC I have wintered bees under my open sun deck with no problems again you need to vent upper and lower in the hive because of the high moisture we have out here in the Pacific North West (the hives are not wrapped not too cold)


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

That's intresting- I wrapped all my hives and double Nucs. Temps ranged from mid 70s to - 28 below zero. Wintered 100% of the hives and nucs. Winds of 75 mph are not uncommon. I lost one Overwintered Nuc in mid-May after it was unwrapped. I use both upper and lower entrances for ventilation. The is a HUGE difference in your average garage and Ian's facility that is designed for overwintering bees indoors.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>Is there any benefit to just moving hives into an unheated garage to keep them out of the wind in the winter? 

Yes. (see post 9) IMO a small cluster can not keep warm when it's 20 deg or less. Around here 5 frame deep hives and less have low winter survival. 7 and 8 frame hives can make it but mortality rate still too high for me. 

Several people have asked so I will try to explain it again and add some details that were left off in the original posts;

Small late swarms (not weak hives) that did not have time or a nectar flow (I probably should have fed more) to expand to a winter survival size by Dec. I screened them and moved them in an attached unheated garage (average 45-50 deg) when it was forecasted low 20s moved them in (sometimes it dipped to 17, that's when I lost the smallest). Whenever it was forecasted to be 45 for 2 or more days I moved them out and unscreened. I fed syrup poured just a little on the inner cover and sugar block pieces when they were garaged. Covering the garage windows did not seem to matter some light still managed to come in, and some bees would still get all worked up when temps got 50 deg and it was sunny, but calmed back down when it got dark. Using my truck to load, unload and drive them to the outside location made it more work than it needed to be and because of that kept them garaged more. I would liked to have trailered them in and out. Or better yet set them facing the outside and just open the garage door when it was warm and close it when it was cold. 
This does work very well for a small number of hives for a hobbyist. A few things to keep in mind, the hives should have plenty of empty room inside with a few empty frames, don't try this with a 5 frame nuc packed with 5 frames bees you will cook them, move them to a 10 frame first. My 7 and 8 frame hives were the biggest of the ones I garage they had 2 or 3 empty frame inside giving them room to move around and not overheat. The first year I had 10 out of 11 survive to become strong productive hives, and again last year I had 12 out of 14 survive. At least 80% of these small late swarms would not have made it outside in our winter. So when everyone is scrambling in a panic to try to feed to get to size I just sit back and wait until the first of the 20 deg days come.


Another benefit (besides keeping them alive) they were able to take full advantage of early brooding with no chilled brood. My weakest cluster coming out of winter with no more than 2 frames of bees turned into a powerhouse that drew and filled 2 deep packed with bees and 2 supers of honey.


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