# Wicked lot of moisture.



## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

So, I went out to my hives a few minutes ago just to see if they were flying today. On one of my hives I have a medium with a screen on the bottom and it's filled with cedar shavings. I took the outer cover off and a bunch of water ran down the inside of the cover and there is a bit of mold forming under there as well. I stuck my hand in the cedar chips and it is VERY wet. As I dug deeper I could feel a lot of warmth from the bees. 

I had some twigs about .25" in each corner of the cedar filled medium to vent it out some - apparently not enough. So I took a couple of pieces of scrap wood an inch thick to prop up the cover even more.

Is that much moisture normal? They are in and out. I didn't see them bringing any pollen, but the maples, etc are blooming. Is this most likely moisture from the nectar or from the bees? It has 2 deeps and lots of bees.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Am I'm reading this right? You have a screened BB with a medium on top of it (filled with Cedar shavings) and two deeps on top of that?


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

snl said:


> Am I'm reading this right?


I don't think so.

I believe that he put screen on the bottom of a medium box, filled it with shavings and put it on top of his hive.


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

snl said:


> Am I'm reading this right? You have a screened BB with a medium on top of it (filled with Cedar shavings) and two deeps on top of that?



Lol.. No, I have a medium super on top of the hive with screen stapled on the bottom of the medium that is filled with cedar shavings. I did forget to mention, though, that under the screened medium filled with cedar shavings is a 1" pc of wood separating it from the deeps with about a 1" notch for an upper entrance.

No SBB on this hive.


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

So, does anyone have any idea if this much moisture is normal?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I have been using Homasote over inner covers with the notches down... Most of my hives also had a top entrance drilled into the top boxes. With my setup, in my area, I have not had a problem with moisture.

One thing that may be an issue is the use of screen above the bees. Any humidity will condense on the relatively cooler metal instead of migrating out a top vent/entrance, or condensing and freezing safely on the hive walls.

I have heard of some beekeepers changing straw, shredded paper, or other material during the winter. I don't have that problem. I have removed most of the Homasote from my hives, and it is not damp. 

I would reconsider the ventilation and overhead insulation that's used.

Joe


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

Joe, thanks for the response.

I understand what you mean with the screen. But with it being so warm in the cedar chips. I'm not sure it would be condensation? I was thinking more along the lines of moisture from the bees or from evaporation of moisture from the nectar?

What do you think?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

It's from the bees... It's bee breath


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

If the cedar shavings are wet, by definition it's condensation unless you have a fountain running in the hive.

You have too thick a layer of shavings, or they are not coarse enough. You do not want to seal the top of the hive, you want to slow the airflow down considerably and buffer the moisture to keep the hive at decent humidity but not wet. I suspect you have all the water vapor from the entire winter in those shavings, which is not a good idea.

An inch or two of shavings will do all that's needed while still being thin enough to allow the water to evaporate off the top.

Also make sure you have plenty of ventilation above the shavings, else you are just putting a condenser on top to drip water down on the shavings!

Peter


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

Ah, ok. I was assuming Joe meant moist heat hitting cold screen causing condensation. 

I guess I do have too much cedar chips that medium is pretty full. I'll have to take some out. The cedar actually has been relatively dry after I put twigs under the outer cover. Seems just recently it's gotten really wet. I did recently remove a medium with 10 frames and comb from between the medium with cedar chips and the deeps. Maybe that was giving it some room to evaporate ?


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

In Attleboro your bees have already had a few chances, during that recent warm spell, to bring in quite a bit of nectar which has tons moisture in it. I would be willing to bet that is the cause.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I would think I would have excess moisture in Connecticut too... unless I have more ventilation.


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## Jeff G (May 12, 2010)

John,

I have the same setup that you have but I put slats spaced 3/8 inches apart and then fiberglass door screen on top of them, and then the chips. I drill 10 one inch holes in the sides of the medium box and put no 8 screen on the holes to keep anything out and chips in. I have done this for 2 years and have not had an dampness show up in my chips. I use saw dust out of my shop but I sift it through a screen to get the fine dust out. The way this works is the moisture collects in the chips but needs a way to get out of the box. Once you proped your lid you gave the moisture a way to exit. You need to set this up in a way to let this venting happen all winter long. I do it with the holes in the sides. I do not give them a top entrance with this setup.

I like the slats because this lets them move over the top bars more freely in the winter so bees won't get trapped, or have to move to the bottom or sides of the frames to move with the cluster.

By the way, I then take my box, dump the chips, turn it over and put it on top of the intercover for the summer. It works great for ventalation with the 10 screened holes in the sides. Bees will go up and mill around and I have even seen them in a circle around the center intercover hole faning to draw air.


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

Keth Comollo said:


> In Attleboro your bees have already had a few chances, during that recent warm spell, to bring in quite a bit of nectar which has tons moisture in it. I would be willing to bet that is the cause.


That's what I was wondering. I have been in that hive several times this winter, the first time I noticed moisture was, I used a couple of twigs under the telescoping cover and that took care of it. Then like you said, we had that warm spell, and a lot of maples were blooming.

I checked it again today and it's dry as a bone. Those one inch pieces of wood must of had done the trick. 

I'm going to have to try another method.

Jeff, do you have an pics you could share of your set-up?


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## Jeff G (May 12, 2010)

Here is a link to photobucket that has some pictures. I make mine out of 2x6s. I screw them together in a box, then staple the screen on, and then nail the lath in place. I have been putting 3 to 4 inches of chips/sawdust but I may just fill some next year. I like the inch and a half material because it keeps more rain out of the holes.

http://photobucket.com/wintersummertop


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

Yeah, I like those, Jeff. I just put a couple of pieces of wood across to help hold up the screen. All those slats like you did is a better idea. I've been toying with the idea of making a gable cover and putting copper flashing on it. Then I could put some vent holes on that. I really like the way that looks. Similar to a Warre style I guess. 

What was going on in the videos? The only time I ever saw anything like that was one day the temperature dropped about 10 degrees in 10 mins and huge dark clouds started rolling in. My bees were flocking home like mad.

BTW, how do you keep your lawn so green? :applause:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The answer to your question is yes it is normal and that is the problem I have with this soak up the water method and hope it evaporates fast enough. If it doesn't it freezes on a cold night and can only cause more problems. To many variables for my liking.
You have to have the ventilation anyway so why not just let it go out the hive instead of trapping it and then venting it? What does that buy you or the bees?


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

Acebird, I wasn't expecting it to get so wet. What I thought would happen is that it would wick away moisture to stop it from dripping down on them, and also give them a bit of protection from the cold. It seemed to work until recently when that really warm weather came and they were bringing in lots of water and/ or nectar.

Instill new to this and have lots to learn


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Yeah, everything is dependant on weather. A sponge can only soak up so much water. keep in mind that when insulation or a sponge soaks up water it does not insulate. Insulation should remain dry, bone dry or it doesn't insulate anymore. Before this idea came along people just tipped the hive so the condensing water would run to a wall and run down the hive and out. Far more efficient than trapping it in wood chips and hoping it will evaporate in time as far as I am concerned. But if conditions are right you might swear by it. What you have is conditions are not right.


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## Jeff G (May 12, 2010)

John, The videos were from last August when a local farmer planted 100 acres of buckwheat after his wheat crop in July. The videos were a combination of an orientation flight and heavy flight. It was simply amazing to look out over the field in the morning and see all the bees. You can see the buckwheat in bloom in the background. But like you said, one of the coolest things I have ever seen is when the bees are coming back just before a storm with that first cool breeze ahead of the storm.

Grass always looks best at this time of year. Here in central Ohio I have mowed 4 times and normally don't mow for a week or 2.

Acebird Your quote:"You have to have the ventilation anyway so why not just let it go out the hive instead of trapping it and then venting it? What does that buy you or the bees?" 

You sound just like all the old time bee keepers that told me I would have a block of ice with wood chip in it. You don't have to vent in the traditional sense; this is ventilation because air will move through the chips but at a slower rate. It would be like me asking you; WHY would you top vent a hive? To me it is like leaving your front door and window open in your house all winter. I over wintered 26 hives last winter and had 26 hives alive March 1. I have felt and dug down in this sawdust monthly and have never felt any moisture. I have put a temperature monitor in the middle of this box under the chips and at 17 below it was not below freezing in the bottom of the chip box. I am not so sure that the moisture collects on the chips. It may be that the ventilation that moves through the chips just takes it out with the air movement. I think that large chips are not as good as small chips but fine dust needs to be removes or it just keeps falling on the bees every time you do something.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Jeff, most moisture conditions are not in the dead of winter. It happens in the fall and spring when the conditions are right. The conditions you have allow your hives to make it through without a problem. Not everyone will have that luxury. What you don't know is would you have had 26 out of 26 make it through this winter if you did not use the chip bed?

In this instance I am going to side with the commercial operators moving thousands of hives all over the country and not using the chip bed method of overwintering. In my line of reasoning it has zero value. You obviously feel completely different otherwise you wouldn't do it. That's OK. Do what you like.

John would like to know why it didn't work for him. I gave my reasoning what is yours?


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

As far as I can tell, it's because I didn't have it vented enough. After I propped the outer up more, it was dried up by the next day. But now I'm concerned with there not being enough moisture. I would rather them be able to get water from within the hive if they need it to thin out honey, than to have to go hunting for. Even though there is a pond about 100' from house, which isn't far, getting water from within the hive, is even quicker.


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## Jeff G (May 12, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Jeff, most moisture conditions are not in the dead of winter. It happens in the fall and spring when the conditions are right. The conditions you have allow your hives to make it through without a problem. Not everyone will have that luxury. What you don't know is would you have had 26 out of 26 make it through this winter if you did not use the chip bed?
> 
> RESPONSE: Your point about whether my hives made it due to the top is correct. The only reason I made it was to point out that moisture does not collect with this type of top at any time of year, fall, winter, or spring, and I have looked over multiple seasons. And if you don't think hive moisture conditions happen in the dead of winter, you are not correct, bees are giving off moisture at a constant rate in the hive. It is by far a bigger problem in the winter because of frosting on cold surfaces.
> 
> ...


RESPONSE: I have already given my response if you read the tread, you should read treads before responding.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

John, 
I did the something similar with my bees this winter, except that the material I used was chopped leaves, and I DID NOT make any vent passages of any kind through it "to let moisture escape". 
That is very important to avoid getting a lot of condensation on the cover!
The result of what I did was that I had a 3" layer of leaves in the spring, dry on the bottom of the layer and very damp material in the top 1/4". The leaves on the very top had visible moisture.

This is why you had a wet cover, and why the top of my leaves were damp:
Warm air from the hive rises, carrying the moisture in it with it until it reaches something cold (like your top cover, or the cold air above the insulating layer of leaves in my hives). 
Then the moisture condenses.
If there is ventilation to the outside where the moisture condenses, the moisture will evaporate into the cold DRY air fairly quickly, suffering moisture damage due to condensation. That’s why our attics are vented above the insulation on top of our home ceilings…to prevent our roof form getting wet like the underside of your covers. Cold air above an insulting layer is no biggie—the warm air is trapped underneath.

Unless you put vent holes through the corners of the insulating layer with sticks.

If you do that, the warm moist air bypasses the insulation, and rises right up to the cold underside of the cover above, and the moisture condenses. Without any ventilation ABOVE the insulting layer, the moisture accumulates. My top cover is propped up on one side with a couple of small 1/8” sticks to allow for that ventilation…but there are NO holes through the insulating layer of leaves to bypass the insulation.

I think if you cover the entire screen next year with a layer of shavings or chopped leaves about half a medium box thick, and allow some space above for the condensation on your cover to get out, you’ll find things much different next winter.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Beregondo said:


> That’s why our attics are vented above the insulation on top of our home ceilings…to prevent our roof form getting wet like the underside of your covers.


The vent in your roof is more for the damp warm weather not the bone dry winter. If you do not have a vapor barrier on the warm ceiling to prevent the moisture from going in the insulation you will have serious moisture problems in the insulation even if you have a powered ventilation fan in the roof. Trapping moisture in organic material (leaves, sawdust, or wood chips) and hoping you have enough ventilation to evaporate it is not a good idea in my opinion.



> bees are giving off moisture at a constant rate in the hive.


Not even close to correct. The amount of moisture give off is a function of metabolic rate and population. No different than any other animal. (constantly changing)

Commercial beekeepers would use this method if it had a plus side. I am pretty sure of that.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Acebird said:


> The vent in your roof is more for the damp warm weather not the bone dry winter. If you do not have a vapor barrier on the warm ceiling to prevent the moisture from going in the insulation you will have serious moisture problems in the insulation even if you have a powered ventilation fan in the roof.


You're absolutely right that you will get moisture build up in insulation without a vapor barrier. This is exactly what I was describing when described condensation accumulating where the leaves I used for insulation meet the cold air in the top 1/4" or so.

Attic ventilation _does_ save energy in the summer, and _also_ saves your building envelope in the winter. 
Even with a vapor barrier, an unvented attic will accumulate moisture. 
I've worked enough years in carpentry to have repaired my fair share of rot caused by it. 
This is elementary building science and covered in entry level certification courses.



Acebird said:


> Trapping moisture in organic material (leaves, sawdust, or wood chips) and hoping you have enough ventilation to evaporate it is not a good idea in my opinion.


If it were a problem, then it would likely have shown up at some time since it's adoption by Abbe Warre in the 19th century. 
What we have been describing is a quilt box, successfully used by Warre hive enthusiasts for many decades.




Acebird said:


> Commercial beekeepers would use this method if it had a plus side. I am pretty sure of that.


Commercial beekeepers and hobbyists have different goals, and often what is excellent for the one is at odds with the goals of the other. 
This is an example. It is much faster to set foam insulation on top of a cover to get the condensation to form on the [colder] walls instead of the top than it is to invest the labor in the (in the opinion of many) healthier practice of using a quilt box.

Commercial guys primary aim is to make money. They'll compromise bee health to do it ( e.g. stressing bees by taking them cross country to almond groves, mixing them with bees from all over and risking picking parasites /disease from infected bees while there...not bad, just necessary evil in the business)

Hobbyists will take time to do things for the benefit of the bees commercial guys simply don't have time for because of scale.

Enjoy your bees. Have fun.


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## Jeff G (May 12, 2010)

Well said Beregondo!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Beregondo said:


> Attic ventilation _does_ save energy in the summer, and _also_ saves your building envelope in the winter.


If you believe an attic is ventilated for the winter season you lack the science for when the problem exist. The amount of ventilation you need in Alaska is minuscule compared to what you need in Florida. The heated air in the attic holds much more moisture then colder air does. Most attics are bone dry in the winter. Check it out if you are interested in the science.
Adding moisture to organic material is far from a healthy environment. That is part of my objection. If you want to make a winter blanket use a vapor barrier on the warm side (facing the bees) to prevent moisture going into the wood chips. The more moist the chips are the lower the R value will be for insulation purposes. You should have picked that up in your certification classes.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I have seen mini icicles hanging from roofing nails in an attic. Had it been ventilated, the moisture from a kerosene heater could have exited the structure.

I don't know how that fits with the "bone dry" high science scenario ...


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

So, how 'bout them Red Sox?


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## Jeff G (May 12, 2010)

:lookout:John, you made me smile and laugh. This tread reminds me of one on the weight of honey in a pint jar. In true beekeeper fasion it took 28 post for everyone not to agree.


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## the kid (Nov 26, 2006)

Acebird ,,,, if thats the way you think a ventilated attic works ,,, and Most attics are bone dry in the winter. next winter you go up in your attic ,, and PLUG all the vents ,, and come spring go check it out ..


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Acebird said:


> If you believe an attic is ventilated for the winter season you lack the science for when the problem exist. The amount of ventilation you need in Alaska is minuscule compared to what you need in Florida. The heated air in the attic holds much more moisture then colder air does. Most attics are bone dry in the winter. Check it out if you are interested in the science.
> Adding moisture to organic material is far from a healthy environment. That is part of my objection. If you want to make a winter blanket use a vapor barrier on the warm side (facing the bees) to prevent moisture going into the wood chips. The more moist the chips are the lower the R value will be for insulation purposes. You should have picked that up in your certification classes.



You are absolutely right.

I am the most ignorant of fools.

I defer to your infinite wisdom and perennial right-ness


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Here is an interesting article-
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...x6X8Aw&usg=AFQjCNFBkv2ytwi9qEMpjzDJLRmApx-QeA
It involves a warm damp thing (a person), a permeable insulating layer (a sleeping bag), and cold (-30 C or roughly -20 F). If you replace the person with some bees, the sleeping bag with a box of sawdust, and cold with, well cold is just cold. In a stable situation water vapour will diffuse through the insulation until it reaches a layer cold enough to freeze but as long as it remains frozen and undisturbed the insulation retains some of its value. 

From here my analysis- If adequate ventilation is provided on the cold side the ice crystals will evaporate slowly. If the cold side is warmed the ice will melt and the insulation may become wet. Without ventilation on the outside it will remain wet (the situation in the original post). With ventilation (as subsequently provided by the original poster) the insulation will dry as the ice melts and the insulation will probably never become saturated.
Bill


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The attic in the house I live in has one vent about 6" diameter right in the middle of the roof and no soffit vents. Bone dry in the winter because it has a vapor barrier and solid plaster walls/ceilings. In the spring, summer and fall we must open up the windows in the gable ends. If you have an attic that has icicles on the nails of the roof it could happen for two reasons; 1 there is a bathroom vent that goes into the attic and not outside and or, 2 there is no vapor barrier. Adding vents only in this situation will only make the ice form closer to the warm wall. It won't get rid of the ice. The ice will form somewhere between the warm surface and the cold air where you can't see it. Dew Points are forever changing so the exact point where the moisture turns to ice will change also. If you have frost or ice on the nails of your roof the likelihood is you have rain in the spring and fall and you didn't notice it until you saw the frost.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird,

You missed the part were I mentioned a kerosene heater. 

Oh, and it wasn't my house...

If you get rid of the humidity there isn't any ice....


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## the kid (Nov 26, 2006)

Acebird ,,,,, talk to a building inspector in your town ,,, he will tell you about venting ..


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

Jeff G said:


> :lookout:John, you made me smile and laugh.


Good, I hope some others did also. Debate is healthy, but sometimes it seems to border on personal attack 
So no one ended up agreeing on the pint weight? I'll have to go search that one out. Sounds like some interesting read. lol


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> If you get rid of the humidity there isn't any ice....


Now you are getting the idea except that a kerosene heater is going to ad moisture. Water is a byproduct of combustion and a kerosene heater will put that moisture in the room, (no exhaust to the outside). Put one of those in a new house and you will steam up the windows. That tells you that the house is tight and you could kill yourself if you don't ventilate the room. I not a fan of kerosene heaters either. Too many people getting asphyxiated when they became popular during the oil embargo.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Your a FunnyBird Ace, you begin to agree with others but you twist things around to suggest that the majority was off track.

:lpf:


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Beregondo said:


> It is much faster to set foam insulation on top of a cover to get the condensation to form on the [colder] walls instead of the top than it is to invest the labor in the (in the opinion of many) healthier practice of using a quilt box.


Please elaborate on that. Do you have any science or deductive logic to back that up? Is the problem the material or the physics of how that material functions? Thanks


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I put the insulation (foam) on top of the outer cover so the bees don't get at it. The insulation makes the ceiling surface warmer than the walls of the hive so the walls will reach the dew point temperature before the ceiling does. Then the condensate only runs down the walls. If you think about it, it would be the same as a feral hive having solid wood above the bees and thinner wall in a tree. The idea of a blanket / insulation on top of the hive is a good one. The idea of venting the moisture through the wood chips is not.
If you used a solid inner cover with a notch facing down to vent you could then fill a box with any insulating material including chopped up newsprint and you would be good.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

RiodeLobo said:


> Please elaborate on that. Do you have any science or deductive logic to back that up? Is the problem the material or the physics of how that material functions? Thanks


Putting a sheet of foam insulation on top of the outer cover is quick and dirty way to prevent water vapor from condensing on its underside and dripping on the winter cluster of bees. It forms on the walls inside the hive first as it is colder (Acebird explains the science of this above).

Using a quilt box (box with a layer chopped leaves, sawdust, etc completely covering a screen on bottom that holds the material) allows water vapor to migrate through the material, which is warm on the bottom (side toward bees) and cold on the top. 

The moisture condenses on the top of the layer, which will get a little damp as the leaves on top absorb it. 

If the space above the leaves is vented to the outside, cold dry air will get in above the insulating layer of material, and the moisture on top of the layer will be absorbed by it and carried it outside as that air vents out.

This way it stays much dryer in the hive space. Some moisture might condense on the walls, but a lot less...and a little is good as it gives the bees something to drink (they'll lick the dew off the walls when it is warm enough to break cluster but too cold to fly).

When I open the hive on first inspection in early spring, and put my hand into the layer, I can feel a great difference in temperature btw the top of it and the bottom. The very top might seem soggy, but the bottom is dry.

Hope I've explained this well enough to make the "why it works" clear. 
Let me know if you have questions. If it is hard to visualize, I'll post some pics.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Beregondo said:


> The moisture condenses on the top of the layer, which will get a little damp as the leaves on top absorb it.


This is where your science is a little flawed. The moisture condenses at the point of dew point which could be the top, middle, or near the bottom depending on conditions. These conditions vary from day to day and more importantly from place to place. So if this method works for you one season it may not work for all seasons or every year and someone in a different zone could have completely different results.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Acebird said:


> This is where your science is a little flawed. The moisture condenses at the point of dew point which could be the top, middle, or near the bottom depending on conditions. These conditions vary from day to day and more importantly from place to place. So if this method works for you one season it may not work for all seasons or every year and someone in a different zone could have completely different results.


That's technically an absolutely accurate statement. In practice, regardless of where in (or above) the insulation layer dew point occurs and moisture condenses, the leaves wick moisture to the dry side.

The point of my reply to this thread in the first place was simple:
To let Rio know that with a simple alteration (not making vent holes in his insulating layer) he can resolve the issue of having a wet underside on his top cover in winter.

All beekeeping advice ought to be considered with regard to locality. I am very familiar with the climate on east side of the Cascade mountains. I've lived in Spokane, and done much travel in the vicinity of Baker, OR in all seasons when I drove truck. It's a LOT dryer that it is here in upstate NY. Otherwise, winters are similar, with Baker a bit colder. 

Theory is valuable. Experience is valuable. With regard to use of a quilt box, I'll repeat:
Regardless of whether theory says it should or not, it works. 
The context of that statement is as a protection against very cold conditions.

It's a nice day. 
Let's go see if there is enough population to make a split. Increase has value.

Proving I'm right doesn't.


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## mayhaw12 (Jul 30, 2011)

Hello Johnc, We had the same problem here in South Ga. We went to SBB to help with
Ventalation. We are also originally from Attleboro, Mass and was born at sturdy Hospital
and Lived on South Main St, in Hebronville until I was Married in 1958.
Cheers......Mayhaw10


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## jwbee (Aug 8, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Jeff, most moisture conditions are not in the dead of winter. It happens in the fall and spring when the conditions are right.



I think that is not always true , depending on where you live , in my area , the wettest time of the year is middle of winter , snow at night turning to rain in the days.

I have a terrible moisture problem in my two hives , even though they are well ventilated , I just cleaned about 2000 dead wet bees off of the bottom board of one yesterday , water actually drips out the entrance and on to my deck some days , I am afraid to open the top anymore than it is already becaus it will get really cold at night and they may freeze.

I was considering using one of these in a shallow super above screened in: http://drizair.com/products.html

It uses calcium chloride as a dessicant , I know it wouldn't be feasible for a large ammount of hives , but for a small time beek like me , it could work.

I would check/empty it once a week.

As long as it is screened in so the bees cant get into it , it should be safe , it gives off no VOC's.

Any thoughts or cautions?

Like I said , it is EXTREMELY wet here , and I have tried everything else.

Cheers.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

jwbee said:


> It uses calcium chloride as a dessicant , I know it wouldn't be feasible for a large ammount of hives , but for a small time beek like me , it could work.


The ingredient in DriZAir *is *calcium chloride:


> Dri-Z-Air is calcium chloride, which is a salt product. When the liquid comes in contact with metal for a prolonged period, the metal will corrode. If it comes in contact with leather, it will dry out and become damaged.


If you want to use this, no reason to order a relatively heavy item for delivery. Just look for bulk ice-melting salt at a local store.

But, in my opinion, putting salt in your hive is not the best choice. Why not use sugar to absorb moisture? If you really have loads of moisture that ventilation and insulation won't deal with, suck it up with sugar. You can swap out the sugar once saturated, if necessary, and later feed it back to them as syrup.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

My neighbor winters his hives in BC and after having problems with the rain soaking all the hive equipment he now tarps his pallets to keep the moisture off the hives. He seemed happy with the results.
This won't help now but may be something to think about for next winter.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Two things to consider here:

First, you need a good solid waterproof wooden telescoping top cover. This will keep rain and dew out of the hive. Make one that overlaps more than the standard ones to keep the inner cover dry. If you have plastic telescoping covers, replace them just as soon as you possibly can with metal covered wood, those plastic covers drip horribly. Killed on of my brother's hives, soaking wet all the time, winter or summer.

Second, you really need a condenser -- a shallow with screen on the bottom filled to the top with coarse sawdust or planer shavings (not sawdust from a table saw!). This will absorb water plus retain a large amount of heat in the hive, both of which will cut down the condensation problem. Sawmill sawdust is good too, since it's quite coarse. It may get damp on top, but should stay quite warm and dry on the bottom. Use #8 hardware cloth (the stuff used on screened bottom boards). Put your inner cover on top of this, telescoping cover over that. 

Make sure the sawdust is loosely piled -- lots of air space so that air can slowly move through. Prop up the telescoping cover a bit, and use an upper entrance 3/8" by an inch or two, making sure it's completely covered by the telescoping outer cover, which should be pushed forward to leave the upper entrance open. The bees can't use it, but you need airflow under the cover.

I would also use a solid bottom board to keep damp air out if you are not.

Hope this helps, water running out the the entrance is bad.

Peter


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

A condenser???? A condenser is a cool coil or surface that is colder then the ambient temperature so it condenses water out of air because the temperature is below the dew point. All you need to do is make the wall of the hive colder than the cover. Insulate the cover. Foam insulation on top of the cover works great. Bees can handle rain. It rains here all the time and here they are use to flying in it. They cannot handle water dripping on the cluster in winter.


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