# Grafting Frame Dimensions or Size



## Scott Gough (Dec 10, 2015)

I am gathering together the items I will need to graft this summer. I have searched for this answer but have been unable to find it so if there is another thread please point me in the proper direction. I did find this thread...

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ing-Frame&highlight=grafting+frame+dimensions

What kind of cups are you using?

What are the dimensions of your grafting frame? 

How wide are the end bars? 

What is the spacing between the cell bars? 

How many cells cups do you put on one bar when grafting? 

For a Langstroth deep how many cell bars do you get in one frame? Two or three?

If using a Lanstroth medium, can you get two bars in the frame?

I am mostly running Langstroth medium frames so will be making a medium grafting frame to start with. Thanks for the help!


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

I think all this stuff is cheap and readily a valuable. Comes as a kit. I think you can choose either a deep gram version, or a medium version. Or just cut the deep frame down to fit a med. I found it on eBay, and Amazon for like 20.00 a kit.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

I use med also, langstroth. Each frame holds like 12 or 15 cells. You can put in as many as you like though.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Scott i will try and answer some of your questions #1 JBZ plastic cell cups. #2 standard medium frame for plastic foundation modified by cutting 2 bottom bars to fit inside the frame, drill 2 1/8" holes in the side bars 5/8" below the top bar then 2 more between the top and bottom bar, push 1" nails through the holes and you will find that you have now 2 cut bottom bars that will fit over those nails, these are the bars that you fit the cell cups onto for grafting and you can get up to 14 cups per bar although I never do that many as I do not have enough mating nucs to handle more than24 at any one time. #3 standard end frame #4 at least 1" apart. #5 14 #6 3 bars to a deep if your builder is big enough or you need so many cells #7 2 bars to a medium frame .
Johno


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

the grafting frames Mann Lake sells are stand frames with additional wood added on the end bars to hold the cell bars. That being said, one of my frames I bought before they switched over or picked it up somewhere else. It is custom made and slightly thinner than a standard frame and I prefer using it as it's easier to get it in and out of a hive and easy to identify. I figure the smaller gap is also more efficient for the bees to access the cups as well.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

What kind of cups are you using?
-Nicot

What are the dimensions of your grafting frame? 
- my normal frame, 140x448 mm

How wide are the end bars? 
-same as normal frame, just pieces of plywood in the end bars to hold the cell cup bar

What is the spacing between the cell bars? 
-as near as they can be, the limiting factor is the Nicot bottom piece, which must be enough wide to allow the emerging cage to fit in

How many cells cups do you put on one bar when grafting? 
-15

For a Langstroth deep how many cell bars do you get in one frame? Two or three?
-max 2

If using a Lanstroth medium, can you get two bars in the frame?
-no need to put more, build more frames, it gives you flexibility, and you get more exact information of the queen origins, paint numbers on the frames and cell bars (look at the picture)

I am mostly running Langstroth medium frames so will be making a medium grafting frame to start with. 
- I´m using shallow


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## Scott Gough (Dec 10, 2015)

Thanks for the replies. I have purchased a few Nicot type cups and was wondering about spacing for them vs the JZBZ cups. I like the nails in the ends idea and might try to use that one. It looks like if I go with the Nicot cups I am only going to be able to put on bar per frame for a medium and if I go with JZBZ cups I will be able to get two bars. 

Juhani, do you let the virgins hatch into the into the emerging cage or do you put cells into mating nucs?

Thanks again.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Scott Gough said:


> if I go with the Nicot cups I am only going to be able to put on bar per frame for a medium and if I go with JZBZ cups I will be able to get two bars.
> 
> Juhani, do you let the virgins hatch into the into the emerging cage or do you put cells into mating nucs?


I put them in mating nucs before hatching.

( In my earlier message I did not write exactly what I meant: I think you will be better of with one bar in a medium frame. When lecturing I have usually put it this way: Lots of second grade queens is a disaster, few good quality gueens is a jackpot)


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## Scott Gough (Dec 10, 2015)

Juhani Lunden said:


> When lecturing I have usually put it this way: Lots of second grade queens is a disaster, few good quality gueens is a jackpot)


Thanks for the words of wisdom!


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I use Nicot cell-cups, both on pukka Nicotplas kit and with the uber-cheap Chinese clone kit, as I consider roller-cages pretty-much essential.

British National deep frame size (14"x9"), custom-made from 35mm width battens, 2 cell-bars per frame, 8 cell-cups attached to each. I prefer to rear in small numbers, and don't use an incubator, thus I've made 5 such frames so that there's always (or rather, usually !) one frame spare for immediate use.

In previous years I've been using these with cell-punched larvae in queenless starter-finishers - one bar or two, depending on colony strength. This season I'll be attempting to graft with a 000 brush, despite deteriorating eyesight.
LJ


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

LJ, have you tried the chinese grafting tool? My eyes aren't what they were either. With a Bushnell head set magnifier and an LED head lamp, I can see the larvae clearly. The tool picks up the puddle of jelly with the larva floating on top.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> LJ, have you tried the chinese grafting tool? My eyes aren't what they were either. With a Bushnell head set magnifier and an LED head lamp, I can see the larvae clearly. The tool picks up the puddle of jelly with the larva floating on top.


That’s why I prefer the Chinese tool. I have tried the German and the JZ-BZ tools but I seem to struggle with them.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> LJ, have you tried the chinese grafting tool? My eyes aren't what they were either. With a Bushnell head set magnifier and an LED head lamp, I can see the larvae clearly. The tool picks up the puddle of jelly with the larva floating on top.


Hello Michael - no I haven't. I did try grafting once before with a homemade tool, but the biggest hurdle I found when trying to lift-up a larva was the acute angle when reaching right down to the bottom of a cell. So I quickly gave up (as I suspect many people do), believing there to be some kind of 'black art' involved.
Then I heard about cutting-down the target cell walls to around half-height beforehand to make access that much easier. Now - THAT makes a helluva lot of sense (wish I'd thought of that earlier) - so I've now bought a couple of scalpels and brushes and intend to try with those.

I've already tried a couple of 'dummy-runs' using the brush with cut-down cells (sadly without larvae, 'cause it's mid-winter), and I like the way the brush flattens-out as it contacts the cell floor. I can also see how the larva would be pulled-up onto the brush by surface tension as it's rotated slightly, and then deposited into a cell-cup by the reverse rotary action.

But - sure, I'll order a Chinese tool in the next day or two as well, as I'm very keen to crack this grafting business, as it promises to be a much simpler method than the others - which is why, I guess, it's remained the pro's choice.

How's winter up there in The North ?
LJ


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

little_john said:


> But - sure, I'll order a Chinese tool in the next day or two as well, as I'm very keen to crack this grafting business, as it promises to be a much simpler method than the others - which is why, I guess, it's remained the pro's choice.


And not all the chinese tools are created equal. The flexible tip must stay in contact with the plunger an the plunger pushes the puddle of jelly of the tip. If it doesn't, it can be corrected. Hold it in your mouth until the tip is soft. Bend the tip so it has a slight curve...toward the plunger. Hard to describe.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

little_john said:


> Hello Michael - How's winter up there in The North ? LJ


Cold, white. The days are getting longer.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

LJ I normally buy those grafting tools 6 at a time and start working with the best one I find out of the 6. If you work in higher temperatures if the flexible tip is too hard it does not want to bend on the bottom of the cell and pushes through to the cell on the other side, so pick the softest tip to start with and if it does not soften enough after holding it in your mouth for a while I have got them softer by carefully working on the tip with some 400 grit wet and dry paper. After a little practice one can lift those little larvae out of a full size cell pretty smartly of course with the help of some good light and magnifiers. Dont forget to mark the one that you are happy with so that you can pick it out of the others easily.
Johno


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Thanks guys - seems there's a tad more to this Chinese tool malarky than I'd first thought ...

What I certainly didn't realise was just how cheap they are ! There's a bloke (who I know to have a good reputation) who's selling packs of 10 here in the UK for the same money I paid for one brush ...

So yes - I'll certainly be giving this tool a whirl too.
LJ


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Some of the chinese grafting tools work perfectly right out of the package. Some need to be tweaked. The most common issues are, as MP pointed out, the bend of tip, but also the thickness of the tip. Some are just right and some are too flexible (nothing you can do) and some are too thick. You can thin them down with a bit of very fine sandpaper if they are too stiff. One that works correctly will hit the bottom of the cell and bend and then slide right under the royal jelly. One that is too stiff will not bend. One that has the bend the wrong way will not go under either and will be difficult to slide off as the plunger won't be in contact with the "blade".


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Michael Palmer said:


> Cold, white. The days are getting longer.


How much longer until you start? 
On 2/19 I'll be making my first starter.
3/1 and it's game on


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

First cell builder setup is May 9. First queens June 13


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

I'm tiered of queens by the end of July,last ones in August.
Made more mating nucs for this year getting close to 500, too many for one old guy, but fun.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm with ya old man


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