# Install a 3 lb package of bees in a 5 frame nuc



## allan (Jul 7, 2013)

can you start a 3 lb package of bees in a 5 frame nuc or is it better to start them in a 10 frame hive ?



thanks allan


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Yes you can start them on 5, but they will outgrow it within a month..... no advantage to starting them in a nuc.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

You could start them on 2 frames, or 4 - the question should be is there an advantage to doing so. I would see no issue starting them on five frames if you are planning to watch them closely - keep in mind that a package's population will decline until the first new bees are hatched. Then the population will grow rapidly, presuming the queen is performing as she should. So be ready to shift them to your usual equipment 20-25 days post installation in the nuc.

Potential issues: You will be limiting the number of frames that get drawn out in the first weeks and potentially limiting the space available for the queen to lay. Those points noted, as long as you have them in full sized equipment 20-25 days post installation I don't see any real issues. I don't see any real benefits either.


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## allan (Jul 7, 2013)

my plan is to start them in a 5 frame nuc let them build up and split the nuc in to another 5 frame nuc with another queen and let the 2 nuc build up so I can make 2 10 frame hives out of 1 package of bees if that would work


thanks allan


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I take a 10 framer and cut a piece of plywood to fit inside the front and rear, nail to a top bar, with depth to touch the bottom. and place a 3/8 wax cleat on top. That will seal the spacer. Bees can not get to vacant area of 10 framer. 

Start with 5 frames, if it is cold, (spacer will be in position number 6) move the spacer and add frames as needed. If you ever need a 3 frame nuc for small colony and cold weather, place the spacer in the number 4 position. Move as they need frames. I have built spacers and am eliminating my 5 frame nucs. You get the advantages of a 5 frame nuc, without having to transfer the bees. Only down size is, 5 framers are smaller to move.

cchoganjr


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

allan said:


> my plan is to start them in a 5 frame nuc let them build up and split the nuc in to another 5 frame nuc with another queen and let the 2 nuc build up so I can make 2 10 frame hives out of 1 package of bees if that would work
> 
> 
> thanks allan


I think that is very optimistic - much depends on your prior experience and if you have already drawn comb.


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## allan (Jul 7, 2013)

so you don't think that is a good plan


thanks allan


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

allan said:


> my plan is to start them in a 5 frame nuc let them build up and split the nuc in to another 5 frame nuc with another queen and let the 2 nuc build up so I can make 2 10 frame hives out of 1 package of bees if that would work
> 
> 
> thanks allan


Is this your first package? It might be safer and easier and more efficient to install the package in 10-frame equipment in the spring and let them build. Give them the 2nd deep when they are ready. When that deep is drawn and mostly filled, THEN do a walkaway split (ie split the 2 boxes evenly so that both boxes have equal frames of brood, pollen, and honey). You can let them make their own queen or buy one for the 2nd box. That way both hives have enough resources to survive on their own and build for winter. I've done this several times. I have even kept the hives beside each other but facing opposite directions. At the end of the 1st week I reverse them to help equalize the number of field bees. I think it's a bit more forgiving than trying to do this with nucs because each hive has more resources to work with.

Just a thought.

Rusty


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## allan (Jul 7, 2013)

yes this is my first package I have pre-order them for the spring I am just trying to save some money come up with a way to get 2 hive out of 1 package 


thanks allan


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## Jared.Downs (Jun 28, 2013)

Is there any benefit to starting the package in a nuc box and then add another nuc box on top in 2 weeks? 

So they'd have 10 frames in all and plenty of space to keep drawing comb. But the 10 frames would be more vertically oriented rather than a standard 10 frame box?


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

It's a good plan Allan but you'll need to let them build comb before splitting which will take time. I had 2 hives last year and via splits I have 8 now  and it's my 2nd year.
Be sure the nuc is busting with bees when you split and you may wanna get a queen rather then try rearing your 1st year. Queens tend to be very cheap down south sometimes $10. Else you'll need to have enough stores to last the bees without a queen almost 3 weeks until she starts laying and then it's another 3-4 weeks until you have a solid worker force. Buying a nuc is better because comb is already been drawn and it's typical $20 more and can save many weeks.


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

Jared.Downs said:


> Is there any benefit to starting the package in a nuc box and then add another nuc box on top in 2 weeks?
> 
> So they'd have 10 frames in all and plenty of space to keep drawing comb. But the 10 frames would be more vertically oriented rather than a standard 10 frame box?


My bees tend to ignore the 9 and 10th frames sometimes. Bees like going up not out it seems. That being said I have boxes who take up all the space I give them.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I have put a package in a five-frame medium... I would go with the suggestion to go with the double nuc arrangement and then split when all the comb is drawn out and filled with bees. 

I feel that there is an advantage to using smaller boxes.


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## Jared.Downs (Jun 28, 2013)

TheBuzz said:


> My bees tend to ignore the 9 and 10th frames sometimes. Bees like going up not out it seems. That being said I have boxes who take up all the space I give them.


This is my first year. Started with two packages, split and currently have 2 main hives and 2 nucs. Next year, I plan on giving the 5 over 5 in nuc boxes a try and then continuing to add 5 frame nuc boxes to see how they perform. The parent hives (which are TBH's; we're not doing them again) do not like moving horizontal past the 7th or 8th frame. They want to go vertical. Had I read more I would have learned that. 

And if you can purchase a queen when you split it will help the nuc build up faster; more of a concern up here in the northeast than down in the south.


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## allan (Jul 7, 2013)

thanks to everyone for the advice


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Jared.Downs said:


> Is there any benefit to starting the package in a nuc box and then add another nuc box on top in 2 weeks?
> 
> So they'd have 10 frames in all and plenty of space to keep drawing comb. But the 10 frames would be more vertically oriented rather than a standard 10 frame box?


Let me be direct in my answer. YES there is a benefit to starting them in a 5 frame box. Especially earlier in the year with nights still getting chilly. Beekeeping to me is a balance between giving them enough room they don't swarm or slow down, but keeping them crowded enough that they easily cover the brood, properly condition (humidity and temp) the space, and protect what they have (SHBs and wax moths). I think a package started in a 5 frame nuc box, then up supered with 5 more frames properly managed will out perform a package placed in a full 10 frame box to start. Of course the key words there are "properly managed) Not something a commercial beekeeper could or would want to mess with, but a newbie or backyard hobbyist... not a problem.

Rod


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

We split packages all the time, One package 2 queens. BUT I have tons of drawn comb and feed. For a begineer with no resources, you will end up with 2 weak hives. there is a reason the 3lb package is the standard.......


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

If you go nuc over nuc be prepared to move brood to the other nuc. The bees move vertically easily, the queen is often much harder to get to jump the gap. Sometimes she just will not go. Rotating comb can keep her laying and set you up for a split when she is stubborn.


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## Jared.Downs (Jun 28, 2013)

Saltybee said:


> If you go nuc over nuc be prepared to move brood to the other nuc. The bees move vertically easily, the queen is often much harder to get to jump the gap. Sometimes she just will not go. Rotating comb can keep her laying and set you up for a split when she is stubborn.


@Saltybee-

My thought was if I'm able to get into the hive weekly (since I'm just a guy with a few hives) that I can constantly rotate the comb as you've mentioned. 

Would this over work the nurse bees or be a problem if there are too few nurse bees? i.e. lead to possible chilled brood or insufficient feeding or them abandoning a section of comb ?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If I had no drawn comb and a five frame nuc and an ten frame box, I'd put them in the five frame nuc box. They will build up more quickly in the nuc box. If I didn't own a five frame nuc, I'd put them in the ten frame box.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Jared.Downs said:


> @Saltybee-
> 
> My thought was if I'm able to get into the hive weekly (since I'm just a guy with a few hives) that I can constantly rotate the comb as you've mentioned.
> 
> Would this over work the nurse bees or be a problem if there are too few nurse bees? i.e. lead to possible chilled brood or insufficient feeding or them abandoning a section of comb ?


With undrawn comb you will not be getting many new bees for about a month as stated, a liittle sooner on drawn but only by days at best. Deeps and cold I would be slow to start moving brood until after that. If you are lucky enough to get drawn comb before that the most I would do is put the 2nd nuc under and move outside (broodless) frames down. Mediums and shallows , once the brood is well covered it will stay well covered, you will be well into May by then.
Not all nucs are equal, some poke along, some take off like crazy. I might start moving one and leave the one next to it untouched, that would be the norm.

It would be worth your while to go back to last springs posts and read Ben Little's posts and concerns about cold and starting nucs from Australia. He split 3 lb and had good success. Remember the Gulf Stream plays into his weather.


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## Jared.Downs (Jun 28, 2013)

Saltybee said:


> With undrawn comb you will not be getting many new bees for about a month as stated, a liittle sooner on drawn but only by days at best. Deeps and cold I would be slow to start moving brood until after that. If you are lucky enough to get drawn comb before that the most I would do is put the 2nd nuc under and move outside (broodless) frames down. Mediums and shallows , once the brood is well covered it will stay well covered, you will be well into May by then.
> Not all nucs are equal, some poke along, some take off like crazy. I might start moving one and leave the one next to it untouched, that would be the norm.
> 
> It would be worth your while to go back to last springs posts and read Ben Little's posts and concerns about cold and starting nucs from Australia. He split 3 lb and had good success. Remember the Gulf Stream plays into his weather.


@Saltybee-

Thanks for the advice. I've got two nucs right now and they definitely are not equal. One is looking great while the other is slowly progressing. 

When I attempt this next spring, I plan on using drawn comb in medium frames since I plan on only having medium frames for medium 10 & 5 frame boxes. Trying to maintain some sort of a standard. 

Will look into Ben Little's posts as mentioned, thanks!


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