# keeping new queen from mating w/ siblings... overkill?



## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

I have wondered about this same question, but dont have the option of moving things to another location. We plan to try raise one round of queens, I know of at least two other folks keeping bees within a few miles (as crow flies, much longer drive) of our spot. We have 10 colonies, 7 of which share the same paternal great great grandmother, and one of those will be the mother hive for our queen round. 3 of our colonies are from a totally different line, queens from a different source.

My wondering is, at what point do I have to get concerned about the potential for inbreeding ?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"Is this practically speaking unnecessary?" Pretty much.

"My wondering is, at what point do I have to get concerned about the potential for inbreeding ?" Virtually never.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

grozzie2 said:


> We have 10 colonies, 7 of which share the same paternal great great grandmother, and one of those will be the mother hive for our queen round. 3 of our colonies are from a totally different line, queens from a different source.
> 
> My wondering is, at what point do I have to get concerned about the potential for inbreeding ?


Let's see, sharing the same maternal or parternal great great grandmother. Grozzie, my head is hurting now. :s


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

The queens are suppose to fly 2+ miles away to dca (drone congregation areas). According the books they fly low to avoid local drones, but I have no idea if that is true.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

philip.devos said:


> Let's see, sharing the same maternal or parternal great great grandmother. Grozzie, my head is hurting now. :s


hehe. One original queen. Splits and swarms over 3 years, we now have 7 hives that trace back to her. Dont ask me where the papa side of the equations came from, I have no clue, and dont really care either.

good to know that others agree, worrying about inbreeding is probably overthinking the whole issue.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Raising a few dozensor more won't matter that much. Yes you can inbreed. But not at that small of a level. When you start talking several hundreds to thousands and start having to use drone colonies to mate all the queens then that's where you have to watch it.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

grozzie2 said:


> hehe. One original queen. Splits and swarms over 3 years, we now have 7 hives that trace back to her. Dont ask me where the papa side of the equations came from, I have no clue, and dont really care either.
> 
> good to know that others agree, worrying about inbreeding is probably overthinking the whole issue.


Thanks grozzie, and all others that have responded.


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

All my queens go out and mate with the feral drones that hang out in the woods nearby.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is this practically speaking unnecessary?

Yes. The queen might fly that far anyway, but the drones probably won't... you may even get the opposite effect you want...


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

I have wondered about how anybody knows where the queen goes to mate. I was at a bee seminar Saturday and one of the speakers said the queen goes two miles to mate so he puts drone colonies about that far from his mating yards. and all that may be true but how does anyone know and how does the queen know when she leaves the hive to mate which way to go to find drones?


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

I suppose I will stir up the discussion. Have you folks seen "more than honey", the scene from carnica production, where the queen must have been mating about 50 yards from the mating nuc with 500 drones in her following?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjjqW_z1z4w at 30:29.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

You must remember sex allele incompatibility too. It helps prevent inbreeding somewhat as if she is inbred too much, she won't be very viable to begin with. Aram, I've always wondered the same thing.... Drones around hives where virgins are is common, and I assumed as soon as she comes out she's fair game and any drones in the area that spot her would be off to the races....


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

JRG13 said:


> I've always wondered the same thing.... Drones around hives where virgins are is common, and I assumed as soon as she comes out she's fair game and any drones in the area that spot her would be off to the races....


 In isolated mating apiaries it quite common to see AVM.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

A study has shown that a DCA will have in it drones from every apiary that is in flying distance of it. This would mean that for a queen to mate with only related drones there would be no other un-related colonies within 2 or 3 miles of the DCAs she is able to reach. This would be vary unusual in nature.


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

So there have been witnesses to a "drone collection area", the majical place where the drones hang out? Is it a limb on a tree where they all hang out? Or, when a virgin queen flies out, does the phermone she secretes act as an attractant and all drones in the area, down wind, swarm to her?

I googled it and came up with zip.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Drone Congregation Areas are areas often several hundred yards in diameter that the drone fly to and orbit while they wait for a virgin queen to arrive. The virgins are not usually mated until they fly into the Areas, though there are reports of their being mated on the paths between DCAs. The Areas are in the same locations from year to year, usually they are on the protected south slope of hills, over open areas in forested country or at the intersections of forested fence lines, to name a few terrain types. I believe no one is sure why the drones select these areas. 

The virgins probably follow pheromone trails left by the drones as they go to the DCAs instead of the males following the virgins to them. DCAs have been located from 50m to 500m from apiary sites so the queens have many chances to mate. I personally believe the queens will not pass a DCA to fly miles to mate, I think if the DCA has many drones in it she will mate. Mating flights are dangerous for virgins, why would she take unnecessary chances. 

There are some videos on the web showing the use of tethered queens suspended from balloons. Search Honeybee Queen mating.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

jdmidwest said:


> So there have been witnesses to a "drone collection area", the majical place where the drones hang out?
> I googled it and came up with zip.



Drone congregation areas


‘There is a natural occurrence to be met with upon the highest part of our down on hot summer days, which always amuses me much, without giving me any satisfaction with respect to the cause of it; & that is a loud audible humming of bees in the air, tho’ not one insect is to be seen. This sound is to be heard distinctly the whole common through, from the Moneydells, to Mr White’s avenue-gate. Any person would suppose that a large swarm of bees was in motion, & playing about over his head. This noise was heard last week on June 28th.’

Gilbert White, ‘A Natural History of Selborne’

The above writing is believed to be the earliest known reference to what we now call a drone congregation area. (DCA)

Although a lot of research has been carried out into drone behaviour in DCAs, no one has yet satisfactorily explained why the DCAs occur in certain places, and even more mystifying, why they persist in the same places year after year. (The DCA referred to by Gilbert White is still in use today.

Virtually all drones die in the previous autumn, so how do the new drones know where to go? Light distribution and the contour of the horizon seem to play a part in choosing a site Pechhacker 1994) and Zmarlicki and Morse determined that most DCAs seem to be located over an open area of land of about a hectare, protected from strong winds .Obstructions such as high buildings and tall trees are avoided, but not all open spaces are used. The flyways connecting the DCAs tend to follow lines of trees or hedges, etc . There may be several DCAs adjacent to each other. One study showed that a 10 sq k. area next to an commercial apiary contained at least 26 DCAs and 18km of flyways. Based on radar images a DCA was defined as an area approx. 100m in diameter, where the drones fly at a mean height of 25m-it depends on wind velocity. The stronger the wind, the lower the drones fly.

POETRY BREAK

The night is still young and our drinks are yet long,
The fire's burning bright and here brave is the throng,
So now I will sing you a sooth little song
Of the busy brown bee - with a ding and a dong.

—J. R. R. Tolkien, Natura Apis (A drinking song)

Many drones seem to stay faithful to one DCA, but may visit another in the same general direction. Two to three miles seems to be an average distance for a drone to fly, but they have been known to travel up to 5 miles. For a queen rearer wanting pure matings from a mating apiary, it seems that this is the minimum distance there must be from any other hives, or else a physical barrier of 500m or more must be present. The parentage of a sample of drones was tested in Germany in 1998, and the conclusion reached was that all the colonies in the area seemed to send roughly the same proportion of delegates to the meeting, thus minimising the chances of inbreeding. (C.Collinson, Bee Culture, Sep. 2008) Because mating takes place in flight, it is difficult to observe.

Modern technology such as radar, combined with the technique of tethering a virgin queen to a moving line, has shown drones detecting a virgin forming a long comet- shaped tail behind her. Recent studies have shown that the drones find the virgin primarily by smell. One of the components of queen substance, called 9-ODA, attracts drones during mating flights. (Apis UK, July 2008). However, it has also been noticed that drones will momentarily chase anything that moves, butterflies, dragonflies or a thrown stone, so presumably eyesight plays a part as well.

Drones have to be very fit and well developed to mate with a queen. In addition to the excellent flying power needed to catch the queen, they must have ample supplies of spermatazoa, as only a fraction of each ejaculate will migrate to the queen’s spermatheca. (Woyke and Jasinski, 1973) In a series of studies made by Duay et al, in 2002, it was shown that the effects of parasitism by Varroa destructor in the larval stage, could seriously affect the drones ability to mate. A significant reduction in drone body weight resulted from invasion by only one female varroa mite, and two or more mites reduced drone life expectancy so much that sexual maturity was seldom reached. Varroa parasitism by only one mite hardly affected flying power but sperm production was reduced by 24%. In those drones that survived, two female mites invasion resulted in greatly reduced flying power and a sperm reduction of 45%. Other interesting facts to emerge are;

1. Drones like it hot. Flying to a DCA and gathering enough drones to form a comet only occurs at 18C or above.
2. They are very good time keepers, generally flying between 2.00pm and 6.00pm This varies according to the weather.
3. Drones returning to the apiary outside these times were not interested in a queen.
4. Maximum flight height in flyways is 21m, but in DCAs it can reach 50m.
5. Drones can make several trips to a DCA in an afternoon, returning to the hive to refuel when necessary. Each mating flight lasts about 30 mins.
6. The number of drones in a DCA can vary enormously, from hundreds to thousands.
7. Usually, 7 to 11 drones will mate with a queen. About 90 million sperm will be deposited in her oviducts, and a mixture of about 7 million of them will be stored in her spermatheca

Mating

The actual process of mating has now been documented quite thoroughly. drone mounts a queen and inserts his endophallus and ejaculates his semen. During ejaculation he falls backwards and his endophallus is torn from his body, remaining in the queen. Any subsequent males mating with the queen dislodge the previous drones endophallus and leave their own in its place. The drones die quickly with their abdomens ruptured in this fashion. The queen returns to her hive still carrying the endophallus of the last male to mate with her. Beekeepers call this the ‘mating sign’ It will be removed by the nurse bees. The process is described very clearly in ‘The Biology of the Honeybee’ by Mark Winston.

The Down-and-Out.

Once the mating season is over, the ‘raison d’etre’ of the drones is gone. Only in queenless or very well provisioned colonies will some be allowed to overwinter in the hive. There is no sentimentality in nature, and drones with no function to perform are simply a drain on valuable resources, ie honey stores. In the autumn they are refused entry to the hive, or have their wings bitten and are forcibly ejected, to die of cold and starvation.

BIBLIOGRPHY

‘Bees, Biology and Management’ by Peter G. Kevan.

‘The Biology of the Honeybee’ by Mark L. Winston.

‘Anatomy and Dissection of the Honeybee’ by H. A.Dade.

‘Bee Genetics and Breeding’ edited by Thomas Rinderer

‘Drone Congregation Areas’ by C. Collison. (Bee Culture, Sep 2008)

‘Beekeeping’ by Kim Flottum.

‘Pheromones of the Social bees’ by John Free.

‘The Honey Bees of the British Isles’ by Beowolf Cooper.



And why is understanding of drone behaviour so important? Understanding drones may well be the key to controlling varroa. Drones range over a 5 mile radius. Workers range over a 3 mile radius. Drones are tolerated , even welcomed in strange hives. Worker bees are prevented from entering starange hives unless they have a full load of honey. For the varroa mite to spread it needs to defferentially lay in drone cells . This behaviour has evolved within the primary host/parastite, that of apis cerana/Varroa destructor. Those who keep the Honey Bee, Apis melifera, have long noticed the preference for varroa to lay in drone cells. This has lead to the destruction of drone cells becoming an indicator of varroa infestation . Stimulation of the queen to lay whole frames of drones which are then destroyed is now a regular part of Integrated Pest Management IPM.
__________________


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## Goran (Oct 27, 2012)

I read once that they found drones I think was mentioned 80 km from original hive ( moving from apiary to apiary without "returning")..


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

beekuk - fascinating stuff. Thanks!

One of the most critical factoids is worth noting again:

_Varroa parasitism by only one mite hardly affected flying power but sperm production was reduced by 24%. In those drones that survived, two female mites invasion resulted in greatly reduced flying power and a sperm reduction of 45%._

The above, plus the common knowledge that varroa mites prefer to parasatize drone larvae is very scary indeed.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

shinbone said:


> One of the most critical factoids is worth noting again:
> 
> _Varroa parasitism by only one mite hardly affected flying power but sperm production was reduced by 24%. In those drones that survived, two female mites invasion resulted in greatly reduced flying power and a sperm reduction of 45%._
> 
> The above, plus the common knowledge that varroa mites prefer to parasatize drone larvae is very scary indeed.


 Worrying indeed, also added to that the fact they will also parasitize queen cell larvae.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

My papas must be hot because by the 3rd generation I have some real HOT workers.... DCA has some africans hanging out, I buy mated queens.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Drone Congregation AreasBy: Clarence Collison
Queen producers need to know all about these.
September 01, 2008

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Mating during the queen’s nuptial flight takes place in drone congregation areas (DCA), where many drones from nearby colonies gather. On warm sunny afternoons, sexually mature drones flock to these aerial zones. When a queen approaches a congregation area, drones chase her, forming a comet-like swarm in her wake. Several drones copulate with the queen in midair (Gries and Koeniger 1996), and then die immediately. The DCA’s persist from year to year whether or not a queen is present. It is still unclear why drones choose particular areas in which to congregate and how queens locate these areas, although DCA’s and the mating behaviors of queens and drones have been extensively studied.

Drones take their first flights between five and eight days post-emergence (Ruttner 1966). These first flights are short, possibly for orientation, and are followed by longer potential mating flights approximately 10 days later which can last more than 30 minutes (Witherell 1971). Drone flights take place in the afternoon, generally beginning about one hour before virgin queens take their nuptial flights (Ruttner 1966). When atmospheric conditions are favorable during the late Spring and Summer, drones can make several trips to the local DCA’s in a given afternoon. When drones reach the congregation areas, they remain flying in wide loops until their depleted energy stores bid them return to the colony to feed. Congregation zones have highly variable areas of 30-200 m wide by 15-40 m above ground. Several thousand drones participate in the congregation, which is formed irrespective of the presence of a queen (Ruttner 1966). A congregation is limited to its spatial parameters, and drones are not attracted by a queen flying outside the area (Ruttner and Ruttner 1965a, 1966).

The distribution of DCA’s has been studied using balloons carrying tethered or caged queens and by radar (Gary 1963, Loper et al. 1987). Such studies have shown that several drone congregation areas can be found within the flight range of an apiary (Zmarlicki and Morse 1963, Ruttner and Ruttner 1966). Interestingly, the location of DCA’s remains consistent for several years, which indicates that the DCA’s location has an attraction that transcends generations. The orientation mechanism that drones and queens use to find the congregation areas is not well understood, although it is believed that light distribution and the contour of the horizon have some influence (Pechhacker 1994).

Zmarlicki and Morse (1963) found that DCA’s were located within an open location for at least a hectare (2.47 acres) and were protected from strong winds. It appeared that the absence of obstructions such as high trees and buildings made a site more appealing to drones, but not all open, well-protected areas were congregation areas. The study of DCA’s is difficult because drones occupy a lot of air space, flying well above the ground. Although it is generally assumed that numerous colonies delegate drones to these congregations, experimental data on the number of colonies and the relative drone contribution of each participating colony have seldom been determined. The composition of drone congregations has important consequences for the genetic structure of honey bee colonies. The number of colonies represented in a congregation influences the relatedness between a queen and her mates, hence the amount of inbreeding and the overall genetic diversity in a single colony are determined at the congregation zones.

Modern technology has revealed the dynamic nature of the drone’s flight pattern between drone congregation areas. Using X-band radar, which tracks large groups of flying drones, scientists have found drone flyways that connect nearby DCA’s. The drone’s flyways form along prominent features of the land (tree lines, etc.). The DCA’s tend to form where the drone flyways branch. Presumably the drones are accumulating in the congregation areas as they re-orient and select their next flight direction. It is possible that mating could also occur in the flyways, but the flight pattern of virgin queens in this system of drone flyways is still unknown (Loper et al. 1992). An X-band radar unit was used to document honey bee drone flyways and DCA’s in a nearly flat desert area (Loper et al. 1992). Within an area measuring 5.0 x 2.0 km (km = .62 mi), adjacent to a commercial apiary, 18 km of flyways and at least 26 DCA’s were identified. These studies were conducted during March and April for four years (1987-1990), and they confirmed that the location of flyways and DCA’s were re-established day after day, year after year. Based on film records of radar images, researchers defined a DCA as a site approximately 100 m (1 m = 39.37 inches) in diameter where drones fly higher and are more numerous than in surrounding flyways. Flyways formed alongside the most prominent physical features – e.g. tree lines formed in washes – but these flyways also branched, particularly when additional tree lines became visible on the near horizon. Most DCA’s occurred at these branch points; thus the accumulation of drones at a DCA may result from rapid turning and altitude changes as the drones re-orient and select their next flight direction. The maximum height of drones in flyways was 21 m, whereas in DCA’s drones were 30-50 m above ground. Flyways are more prevalent than DCA’s and contain large numbers of drones, so it is possible that virgin queens flying upwind or alongside flyways may be mated en route to the DCA.

Selected drone congregation areas were regularly observed for five years to verify that the dimensions of these congregation zones did not change greatly during this time (Ruttner and Ruttner 1968). When strange colonies were introduced into the vicinity, new drones were found at the congregation areas on the first day in equal proportion with local drones. This was true for congregation zones both near and distant to the apiary (2-3 km). Drones of different races of Apis mellifera (carnica, ligustica, mellifera, intermissa) were found at congregation areas, sometimes several races at one place (Ruttner and Ruttner 1972). One study showed that drones tend to have fidelity to a particular DCA during mating flights. Of the 446 drones caught a second time at each of two congregation areas 1.2 km apart, 90.8% had been previously caught at the same DCA, and only 9.2% at the other. The frequency with which drones switched from one DCA to another was higher if both congregation areas were in about the same direction from the apiary (but at different distances) and lower if they were in very different directions. Individual drones were caught at the same DCA more than five weeks after their first capture.

Drone congregation areas are commonly visited by drones from almost every apiary in the neighborhood, although ground elevation changes between the DCA’s and the apiary may reduce or prevent approach flights. In mountain districts at least, there appears to be no correlation between the number of drones in the congregation area and the distance from the apiary. Areas as far as five km from an apiary may be visited regularly by numerous drones; some drones were found coming from more than six km away. It is suggested that drones my orient themselves by means of near and distant physical features of the landscape (Ruttner and Ruttner 1966). Apparently a mountainous terrain negatively impacts the formation of flyways and congregation areas.

In flat country, it was impossible to get pure matings if there were other colonies in the neighborhood; at least 6 km must be free of bees or inhabited by the same strain in order to prevent crossing. A physical barrier of over 500 m seemed to be necessary to prevent colonies as close as three km away from intermingling. Drones, and apparently also queens, will not willingly fly over water (Ruttner and Ruttner 1965b).

The flying space of a DCA typically varies from 98 to 656 feet in diameter (30-200 m) with a height of 33 to 131 feet (10-40 m). The flight altitude of drones within a congregation zone is inversely related to wind velocity (Loper et al. 1992). Although the number of drones in a congregation area is quite variable, one such area had an estimated 25,000 drones from more than 200 colonies (Winston 1987). Several regularly frequented DCA’s were observed 500-1000 m from the nearest apiary. In these areas the hum of flying drones was distinctly audible, but visible only when the drone formations were pursuing queens.

Baudry et al. (1998) sampled and studied the parentage of 142 drones collected in a DCA near Oberusel, Germany. The sample contained one group of four brothers, six groups of three brothers, 20 groups of two brothers and 80 singletons. From the sample it was determined that the composition of the DCA contained equal representation from the local colonies, approximately 240 in number. Considering the density of colonies around the congregation area and average flight ranges of males, the results suggested that most colonies within the recruitment parameter of a DCA delegated equal proportions of males to a DCA. Consequently, the relatedness of a queen to her mates – and ultimately the inbreeding coefficient of the progeny – should be minimal. The relatedness among the drones mated to a common queen is also very low, maximizing the genetic diversity among the different patrilines (paternal sub-families) of a colony.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

What a great overview. Thanks.


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