# Pierico plastic frames?



## mleck (Sep 10, 2010)

I would like opinions from people that has actually owned and used them. I have a chance to buy a few complete hives with these in them but not sure how the bees will take to them. thanks for the help.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

They work great. Work with a operation that runs over 4200 hives and these are what we are replacing everything with as we get rid of old frames and comb. I run these in my own operation as well. Cheap, easy to use, bees take to them...no problems.


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## concrete-bees (Jun 20, 2009)

they work great - i see no reason not to buy them - i would say that if you have hive beetles in your area - i would not want to get them as the bettles love to hide in the rib design of the frames


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

I have trouble with the frames sticking together, above or below. thats the only beef i have with them. I have ordered 1000 new assembled wooden frames with plastic inserts from Mann lake. Not sure why i have so much trouble with the bees sticking them together?


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## BeeAware (Mar 24, 2007)

I switched to all Pierco a few years ago and I have been pleased with them. I like the black waxed frames.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

My only problem is if you set them out in the sun for a few hours, like when I am shuffling nucs makeing nucs etc they will warp. Also it is a shb paradise. Go with assembled wood and plastic. 

mike


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## Bradley_Bee (May 21, 2008)

I buy the peirco inserts and they are a blessing. If the swarm fails and you don't have a chance to catch it before the moths move in they can't completely destroy the swarm. The plastic lasts a long time compared to a drawn foundation. all in all they are great.


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## captahab (Apr 19, 2009)

I luv em


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## Happy Honey Farm (Feb 14, 2010)

There great with the wood frams the only advice I can give is put your wax on them they will accept it faster:thumbsup:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Mann Lake PF100s (deep) and PF120s (medium) are much cheaper and the cell size I'm looking for (4.95mm) and, in my experience better accepted.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

See: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247619 for a recent discussion.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> Mann Lake PF100s (deep) and PF120s (medium) are much cheaper...


Is this statement (much cheaper) correct? Let's see:

Deep Pierco Frame Price : $2.00 
Deep Pierco Frame - Box of 52 Price : $96.20 
Order a quantity of 4.00 or more and pay only $91.00 each 
From: http://betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=352

9 1/8" (23.18) Mann Lake Standard Plastic Frame- $2.95 
$2.45 (Quantity : 10-29)
$1.90 (Quantity : 30-209)
$1.70 (Quantity: 200+)
From: http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDetail.asp?idproduct=1275&idCategory=




Michael Bush said:


> ... and, in my experience better accepted.


Do you have any real confirmation of this statement?
...

Recently Pierco added two new options/futures: custom colors and custom branding
New photos and more details are here:
http://www.beebehavior.com/pierco_plastic_frames_foundations.php

Boris


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you have any real confirmation of this statement?

I didn't do a "scientific" study, but I have used RiteCell, Pierco and Mann lake PF120s and the PF120s were very well accepted. The others were not as well accepted in my observation.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

In Australia we had a similar plastic frame system some years back. The side bars where "webbed" as per previous post. The SHB love them as hiding places. I'm replacing all I have and have gone back to wood. But hten I'm a little old-fashioned and just have to deal with 20 hives.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Do you have any real confirmation of this statement?
> 
> I didn't do a "scientific" study, but I have used RiteCell, Pierco and Mann lake PF120s and the PF120s were very well accepted. The others were not as well accepted in my observation.


If the first part of your statement (Post #10) is false – why I have to believe in the rest of it without any real proof?

Boris


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I like them, but my bees have been a little reluctant. With a strong flow in a strong hive, they do well.

I have found outstanding results by adding additional beeswax (melted in a crock pot and applied with a 4" foam roller).

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

Regarding the price of Mann Lake vs. Pierco you must consider that Mann Lake does not charge for shipping if your order is at least $100. Back when Mann Lake charged for shipping the frames cost less than the ones from Betterbee.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

JohnAllen said:


> Regarding the price of Mann Lake vs. Pierco you must consider that Mann Lake does not charge for shipping if your order is at least $100. Back when Mann Lake charged for shipping the frames cost less than the ones from Betterbee.


To get a best price for a large quantity of frames (foundations) – try to place your order directly with Pierco. It’s possible.

In addition - some statements:

“We have tried a few thousand sheets each of Permanent, Currycomb, Plastic ell and Rite cell, but our testing always came up Pierco. Quicker acceptance, quality, ease to work with, etc.
The difference were subtle, but in our minds enough to avoid the others if we could..”
Dave Tharle, Ardmore, Alabama
Professional beekeeper 
(Betterbee catalog 2010, page #36)

"For ease of operations, storability and durability, Pierco products are unmatched."
John Jones
R.L. Jones Pollination Services
Shafter, California

"Queens prefer the Pierco plastic frame and foundation. The uniformity of brood is beautiful. They store well and any wax moth damage can be scraped right off."
F.W. Nixon
Commercial Honey Producer
Luling, Texas

"When you figure the cost of your time building frames and the cost of Pierco One Piece Frames and Foundation, there is no comparison - Pierco is the way to go. To be competitive, you have to stay up with what's new and beneficial to the industry."
Mike Ptotczak
Commerical Honey Producer
Corfu, New York

"I feel Pierco frames are unsurpassed in withstanding the elements, highway abuse, wax moths, bears, and the beekeeper. Besides, the bees love'em."
Kevin Young
Commercial Honey Producer & Pollinator
Cogan Station, Pennsylvania
...
I think, Michael should capitulate now. Doesn’t it?

Three pictures were added here: http://www.beebehavior.com/pierco_plastic_frames_foundations.php

Boris


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I find that the Mann Lake sheets hold new drawn wax alot better than Permanent. Probably becasue Mann Lake sheets use more plastic to mold the cells. 

Perico sheets are 10-15 cents more expensive, so I havent tested them out recently.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

My choice is wooden frames with Pierco black plastic foundations in the brood nest. I still have the all plastic frame/white foundation in the honey supers but I find a plastic frame covered in honey easy to drop while extracting so I recommend wood frames in the honey supers also. Plastic foundation will be drawn well if used properly, you just have to learn to use it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Deep Pierco Frame Price : $2.00
>Deep Pierco Frame - Box of 52 Price : $96.20
>Order a quantity of 4.00 or more and pay only $91.00 each
>From: http://betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=352

>9 1/8" (23.18) Mann Lake Standard Plastic Frame- $2.95
>$2.45 (Quantity : 10-29)
>$1.90 (Quantity : 30-209)
>$1.70 (Quantity: 200+)
>From: http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDe...75&idCategory=

I have not priced them lately. The last PF120s I bought were less than a dollar a piece in bulk while medium Pierco at the time was around $2.00 if I remember right, but I know they were more expensive. Since I buy them 1000 to 2000 at a time I don't buy them often. The price currently at Mann Lake for PF100s is listed in bulk at $1.70 in quantities of 210+ and PF120s is $1.60 each in quantities of 210+. I have never paid over a dollar for them, but I buy in larger quantities and the price appears to have gone up, although it is still cheaper than what you listed for Pierco, but I didn't look up the volume discount on Betterbee. Either way, prices do change. Shipping policies change. Discounts change.

>If the first part of your statement (Post #10) is false – why I have to believe in the rest of it without any real proof?

Anyone is free to believe whatever they want. What could I possibly provide that you would consider proof? I can only say that my experience and hundreds of other people who have emailed me, posted on beemaster, beesource and the organicbeekeeping group have expressed the same experience I have as far as acceptance.

I don't consider the first part false, between price changes, shipping costs and bulk discounts, I stand by my original statement. The PF100s are cheap and I don't have time to track down all of the current prices, bulk discounts, shipping charges etc, but I'm pretty sure they are still cheaper despite a cost increase that I was unaware of.


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## mleck (Sep 10, 2010)

I have no idea how to go about re waxing. I bought these frames and have powered washed them all up. Now i have bought 17 lb of Bees wax but really have no idea how to go about it. I have my wax melted down in a crock pot and began painting it on the foundation but i am unsure how much to put on. Do i fill the plastic comb up level or do i just coat the out side of foundation leaving the inside of the plactic comb uncoated? any help is greaty appreciated.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would just use them. But if you want to wax them, I would dip them in the wax at just hot enough to melt the wax so it won't warp the plastic. Don't leave them in, just dip and put them in a box. The excess will drip in a pile at the bottom which eventually you can scrape off and remelt.

Some people use a brush or roller to put it on the frames.


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## DaggerD (Feb 25, 2009)

What is the difference between the Pierico plastic frames and these frames?

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/White-6-1_4-Plastic-Frame-Foundation-ea/productinfo/408/

https://www.dadant.com/catalog/shopping_cart.php

Thanks


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## PCM (Sep 18, 2007)

To coat my plastic Mann-Lake PF-120's I use a 4 in foam roller, 1 light swipe on each side is all I use, not thick at all.

:lookout: PCM


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## palmerbee1629 (Jun 16, 2009)

DaggerD said:


> What is the difference between the Pierico plastic frames and these frames?
> 
> http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/White-6-1_4-Plastic-Frame-Foundation-ea/productinfo/408/
> 
> ...


Nothing. This is what I know from talking to a beekeeper at the state meeting. Pierco manufactures and coats frames with beeswax from Canada and anywhere they can get it. They are in California and are owned by the tupperware people. The ritecell frames are imported from a company called Sun Tat Model out of Taiwan/China/Hong Kong to Mann lake. As far as he told me Mann lake is the only place you can get Rite Cell so they probably own the mold there at Sun Tat. All the plastic frames on the market are food grade plastic. Most companies on the market rebrand the names of the manufacturers. There are a couple of others some made in Vietnam for a commercial pollination operation and some made in the upper Midwest.

Plastic frames are great. I will never assemble another wooden frame. It amazes me that anyone does and thinks there saving time and money. When someone drops a lot of money for a new mold to eliminate the shb issue then plastic frames will be perfect.


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## LSBees (Sep 24, 2009)

Currently I am about 50/50 Wood-Plastic and mix of PF-120's, It may just be my bees but I have alot more burr comb with the plastic and often they bridge the tops of the frames to the inner covers. This was my first year with the mann lake plastic frames, I really like them but the bees do seem to bridge them together alot more for some reason.


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## gstephan1981 (Dec 21, 2009)

Mann Lake plastic frames are manufactured at a facility in Illinois.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The reason that all of the plastic frames get burred more is that lack of a thick top bar. This was documented back in the 1800s and is the reason we have such a thick top bar on our wooden frames. I don't see it as an issue. You gain a lot more comb with the lack of a thick top bar.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are a few issues I think are important for plastic frames for me:

Cell Size. I would prefer 4.9mm but the Mann Lake are close enough at 4.95mm. The Pierco, depending on depth, run between 5.2 and 5.3mm. All the others I've measured are 5.4mm.

Price (of course).

Acceptance.

Availability in medium depth.

Based on these three I buy Mann Lake PF120s.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_The reason that all of the plastic frames get burred more is that lack of a thick top bar. _

I think frame spacing also plays a large part in how much burr comb you get on the top bars. Once I started trimming my frames to 1 1/4, I found very little burring on the top bars of frames - even with my plastic frames.


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

but why the burr comb on the white and not the black? Same manufacture, same frame/foundation, just different color.


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## mleck (Sep 10, 2010)

I am not sure what the waxed foundation ought to look like when painting on with a brush. If i fill all the plastic comb with wax it is going to take alot of wax. Or am i suppsed to just wax the high spots and the bees will sink it into the comb as they draw it? Thanks for the help. I will post a couple pictures of what i have done. one is hard to see but if you look hard you can tell the wax is not sinking into the comb like it does when dipping. you can see the white frame down inside the comb with the waxed buit up on the high spots.


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## Merlyn Votaw (Jun 23, 2008)

The trouble is Small Hive Beetles with the plastic I have filled the holes with silcone but haven't tried them yet


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

What was the deal with Permanent last year. They were far behind on thier orders


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Dadant plastic foundation originates in china, it is labeled as so anyways.
Mann Lake plastic foundation/frames is made by a private contractor in Chicago. That is what one of there sales guys told me (I think it was John Dufer). Personally, I like dadant frames with waxed plastic dadant foundation. I know it is made in China, but what isn't. I can drive to go get it. 


Mike


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

We purchased over 60k of the pierco frames 10 years ago. shallows. Use them for honey supers. Work great. The bees love them better on a strong flow. Waxed or not. Nick gets your order done one way or another.

For the hive boxes (down below) I like wood frames with plastic foundation. Can't make them for what you can buy the pre-made ones. Not unless your labor is free. Spent to many years wiring and waxing to go back to that caveman model of beekeeping. Only waxing we do now is for cut comb. 

I originally purchased Mann Lakes pre-made wood /w plastic foundation frames back when they were making their frames out of the trash radiata wood from South America. Got sick of the gigantic slivers and bad wood. After Jack and Co decided to continue to sell them till their wood contract ran out (even after many complaints) I jumped over to Dadants pre-made ones and haven't turned back since. Only complaint on those is I wish they wouldn't drill the end bars. (as if someone is going to wire plastic foundation anyways.:s Just loosens the wood and gives wax moths a place to hide. (we don't have a hive beetle problem)

Like the 'feel" of the wood frames down below. The plastics flex to much when your prying and jamming during splits and inspections. Either way you need to feed quite a bit if you want them to draw them on a slow flow.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> ... I stand by my original statement. The PF100s are cheap and I don't have time to track down all of the current prices, bulk discounts, shipping charges etc, but I'm pretty sure they are still cheaper despite a cost increase that I was unaware of.


Your comparison still is incorrect. 
The Mann Lake Standard Plastic frames (4.9 mm. cell size) are not similar to the Pirco Deep frames (5.25 mm. cell size).

In addition, the Mann Lake Rite-Cell Pro frames are not cheap:
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDetail.asp?idproduct=1282&idCategory=

Boris


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## gstephan1981 (Dec 21, 2009)

The Mann Lake Pro Frames are a 5.1mm cell size. They have a reinforced metal bar, in the ear of the frame to help prevent breakage. The Mann Lake Standard Plastic Frame are a 4.9mm cell size. There is a HUGE difference in price in these 2 frames, as there is a difference in quality. One is like a cadillac, the other like a cavalier.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

We are not talking about these:
>In addition, the Mann Lake Rite-Cell Pro frames are not cheap:
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDe...82&idCategory=

We are talking about these:
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDetail.asp?idproduct=1275&idCategory=

Which in bulk are about 2/3 the price of the PF-500s

bulk PF-500 $2.95 ea
bulk PF-100 $1.70 ea

The last Mann Lake RiteCell I've seen was 5.4mm. The last PF100 I measured was 4.95mm

I paid less than a dollar a piece last time I bought these:
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDetail.asp?idproduct=1277&idCategory=

But they have now gone up to $1.60 in bulk. Sorry I don't keep upon the current price. I buy them 1,000 or 2,000 at a time.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> We are not talking about these:
> >In addition, the Mann Lake Rite-Cell Pro frames are not cheap:
> http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDe...82&idCategory=...


I mentioned Rite-Cell Pro frames because Rite-Cell sheets were tested in comparison with Pierco sheets:
“We have tried a few thousand sheets each of Permadent, Durocomb, Plasticell and Ritecell, but our testing always came up Pierco. Quicker acceptance, quality, ease to work with, etc.
The difference were subtle, but in our minds enough to avoid the others if we could..”
Dave Tharle, Ardmore, Alabama
Professional beekeeper 
(Betterbee catalog 2010, page #36)

Note: Pierco plastic frames (foundations/sheets) - not Pierico plastic frames

Boris


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## Ron5252 (Jan 19, 2011)

I use the black Pierco one piece frames in my hive bodies. I also have some older white ones from about 10 or 15 years ago when my dad had a few hives. The bees almost totally refuse to draw out the white frames and will literally build comb between these frames instead. I have had pretty good success with the black wax coated Pierco frames. Most are drawn out 100% perfectly. My only issue with them are that the bees seem to have to be pushed a bit to finish drawing out remaining frames, especially in the second box. The trick I have found is to spray the frames with sugar water. I re-spray the frames not drawn about every two weeks or so. There also needs to be a pretty strong flow or heavy feeding. Of course this makes sense as the bees are not going to produce more wax without some sort of flow. However, it just seems like the bees switch gears after drawling out 10 to 15 frames.

I am going to try and apply an additional coat of wax on any new frames going forward. I also use the one piece medium frames for my supers and they are pretty awesome as they are almost indestructible. I dropped a fully loaded frame on the concrete floor last year and the entire thing stayed intact. The only other thing I can recommend is to make sure to squeeze the frames as close together in the center of the hive body. This may create a little more space on the ends, but it helps limit the craziness such as excess brace and bridge comb along with keeping the frames drawn out evenly. I cannot compare my results with other types of frames (such as wood/wax, wood/plastic, etc) as I have only used the one piece units. I hope this helps.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

I started out with all Pierco black waxed plastic frames for my deeps and white waxed plastic for my mediums in ten hives. Pierco puts out a great product. never had any problems with quality and Nick is a great guy to deal with. I would recommend doing business with Pierco at any time.

My experience with all plastic frames is the bees tend to build burr comb between the frames of stacked boxes and stick them together so bad it becomes difficult to separate boxes. On the mediums, it's not too bad getting them apart, but on the heavy deeps on a hot day it's aggravating as hell trying to get them apart.

So I tried an experiment. I bought wooden frames and inserted plastic foundation from Pierco. Problem solved. The bees seem to like the wooden frames better(not near as much burr comb) and don't mind the plastic foundation at all. And I don't have to fight to get boxes apart anymore.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

ACBEES said:


> ...
> So I tried an experiment. I bought wooden frames and inserted plastic foundation from Pierco. Problem solved. The bees seem to like the wooden frames better(not near as much burr comb) and don't mind the plastic foundation at all...


I can confirm this part of ACBEES's statement: "The bees seem to like the wooden frames better..."

Boris


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I'd run all pierco frames, if they lost the shb cavities. Also, I would like to see them a little stronger on the top/bottom bar. 

Until the breeding/hiding area is removed. I'll be using wooden frames with ritecell foundation.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> ...
> The last Mann Lake RiteCell I've seen was 5.4mm. ...


- When and where?
- Did you use a vernier caliper or a digital caliper?
- Do you think it’s logical to keep the original name for the frames/ foundations with new cell size? - If it really was changed.

The Mann Lake Ltd written response for my question:
“The Rite Cell Pro Frame is a 5.1 mm cell…”
January 20, 2011


Boris


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Did you use a vernier caliper or a digital caliper?

Digital,vernier and a metric ruler:
http://bushfarms.com/images/RiteCell54Measurment.jpg

> Do you think it’s logical to keep the original name for the frames/ foundations with new cell size? - If it really was changed.

Most people think cell size is irrelevant...

>The Mann Lake Ltd written response for my question:
“The Rite Cell Pro Frame is a 5.1 mm cell…”

Then I assume it probably is now...


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## greif (Nov 9, 2010)

Merlyn Votaw said:


> The trouble is Small Hive Beetles with the plastic I have filled the holes with silcone but haven't tried them yet



how safe is the silicone, do you use food grade... I would like to try that if it's safe


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## Eyeshooter (Mar 8, 2008)

I started with 2 packages on 100% Pierco frames. The bees drew them out but they had no choice and seemed to take forever to do it. So the 2nd year, now with 4 hives, I tried adding wax foundation and wood and was amazed how fast they made comb. When I tried mixing a new super with 1/2 Pierco and 1/2 wax , the wax were all completely drawn out before they started the plastic. Year 3, I grew to 11 hives. I tried giving them a choice of the first 2 or foundationless. They drew wax, foundationless and then Pierco (or Mann Lake as I tried small cell plastic, too).

Now I'm rotating all plastic from my hives and giving it to a local beek who loves it. I know folks love them (and I did too since they are so easy for the keeper to use) but my bees made the decision themselves. This year, it's a mix of wax and foundationless as I start to move all the hives to their own wax. Dang bees...

John


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## NowThen (Nov 26, 2008)

When my father-in-law passed away last year, I inherited his bee stuff - including a case of unused black Pierco. I was excited to try it in my own hives. I had the unhappy task of taking apart his last (dead-out) hive in the late spring of 2010. There were several drawn black Pierco frames in this hive. As soon as I pulled the frames and leaned them against the hive, the hot Iowa sun started turning the drawn comb to slurry. I'm having second thoughts on using the black frames now. I'd sure hate to overheat a frame of brood in a moment of being careless about where I put it. Am I alone in this observation?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Any brood in full sun for any length of time regardless of the foundation, will get hot. For a short period of time, it will be fine. Pierco has nothing to do with it. Any wax comb in full sun in summer will melt.


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## NowThen (Nov 26, 2008)

Thanks, Michael.

I was concerned with the speed that the wax started sloughing off the plastic. As I was tearing the hive down and not doing an inspection, the black frames may have been in the sun longer than I would normally allow.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Being black would help melt the comb, but brood comb in alot of cases are black anyway


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## astockman (Nov 24, 2010)

I am new to beekeeping. I have two hives assembled from Betterbee and I will be receiving two packages of Carniolans in April to get started. All of my frames are one-piece black Pierco. At a meeting last night however, the seasoned beekeepers all seemed to lean toward wax foundation, saying that plastic isn't accepted as well, and the season is just too short for anything less than what the bees take to best.

Generally I like to keep things natural, but I like the idea of the plastic frames/foundation for simplicity's sake. Most speak in favor of the plastic in this thread. If I spray the wax-coated plastic with sugar syrup, and possibly coat with additional wax, should my bees be successful, or will I be stunting them going this route? 

Looking for reassurance in NH. Thanks!


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## captahab (Apr 19, 2009)

I started off with two hives from BetterBee with the Pierco Frames. Ive always sprayed the frames with sugar water before I inserted them. I dont know if it makes any difference as far as how quick the bees take to them or not, its just something I read about somehwere and seemed like a good idea.
Alot of the guys I know dont like the plastic frames , Ive never had issues with them and I love that fact that the Piercos are made here in the states.
If I had to give any advice to anyone just getting started it would be to go with your gut when it comes to decision making. Sometimes spending to much time listening to other people and reading stuff on line confuses a newbie, I know it did me .


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