# Warré Woodworking



## Beeophyte

Here is my Warré Hive so far. Built as close to the plans as I can. The top box is made from cedar and the bottom box is made from pine. All boards are 1" thick nominal, All things being equal I like building with Cedar better. But alas they are not equal. I can build three pine boxes for the price of one cedar. The screws are plated roberts drive screws which I am fond of for boatbuilding. The glue I use is Titebond II. It is cheap and waterproof. Screw heads will be filled with a mixture of Titebond II and sawdust.


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## Beethinking

Looking great!


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## Beeophyte

Thanks Cacklewack, from you that is high praise indeed. Any suggestions on making top bars? I want to avoid wax as I have read that most beeswax these days is loaded with treatments. Ideally I want to go treatment free.


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## Beethinking

I suggest cutting kerfs into your bars and gluing in single popsicle sticks into each of them. No need for wax of any sort. Or we do have many folks building their own Warres buy bars from us, as they are the most tedious/difficult/dangerous part to make. 

Best,
Matt


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## b2bnz

When making my Warre Hive and thinking about the top bars, I decided to use standard Lang frames, reduced in length of the top bar by cutting a section out of the middle and doweling the two pieces back together, leaving reduced side bars on to prevent comb attaching to the sides of the hive and no bottom bar. Put in a small popsicle started strip well waxed. Worked a treat.


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## forgeblast

I didnt use any wax, just the bars and they worked fine. I would suggest that you use the 1/2 frame idea where you run a bar down the side of the top bar.
http://warre.biobees.com/denis.htm
shows what I am talking about. this way you could inspect your hive if required. I will be doing this to my boxes that I add to my hive for the spring.


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## Beeophyte

Thanks for the top bar tips!


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## Beeophyte

Sorry made the post twice.


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## Beeophyte

I emailed the local inspector asking him about Top Bar hives and Warré Hives and he never emailed me back. I think I will just invite the guy out and see what he says. Frames seems like a pretty big step back to Langstroth beekeeping to me.


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## rwurster

Just run a kerf down the center of the topbar and glue in some kind of guide, i use 1/8" stock that i rip from the scrap lumber in my garage. I have also put wax or no wax on the guide and it honestly doesnt seem to make any difference.


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## Daniel Y

Ah that cedar is sweet isn't it. Just the small alone can motivate me to stay out in the shop longer. Not to mention that it works so much easier and smoother.

Not that it is a reliable source but ask around at lumber yards and home improvement centers about culled lumber. Ever wonder what happens to all those broads after people finish picking through the pile at home depot? it gets hauled out back and eventually sold as cull lumber for next to nothing. You can get a whole truck load of it for 15 to 20 dollars. most of it will work just fine for smaller items. Ask to be put on a call list if they have one for cedar culls. I got a huge pile of cedar a few years back for almost nothing. They just wanted it hauled away.

Now do a box with cedar front and back pine sides and dovetails for the corners


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## Beeophyte

Cedar is my favorite wood for this sort of thing. Even though the initial cost is higher I suspect that it's greater longevity will mean that in the long run it is actually a more affordable wood than pine. I will keep records and in a few years we will see what the actual math is.

Your tips about the cull pile are great! I agree it is more fun making stuff out of it (cedar) in the garage.

Your idea about using cedar and pine in one box made me chuckle because I was thinking about that the other day. My thought was maybe I could put the cedar on the 'cold' sides of the boxes and pine on the 'warm' sides of the box. Not sure how that would be though because in the Warré you are supposed to rotate the boxes 90 degrees for winter (warm way). So that the combs run parallel with the entrance for greater draft protection.

As for the dovetails...maybe for Christmas I can get a router and a table saw. Doing them with my circle saw seems dangerous .


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## Vance G

Is their an agreed upon set of demensions for a warre hive. I know TBH are all over on demensions.


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## Beethinking

Vance,

The agreed upon dimensions are laid out in Warre's book. David Heaf has taken them time to create plans in both imperial and metric measurements here: http://warre.biobees.com/plans.htm

The main variation seems to be wood thickness. Warre preferred wood that was about a full 1" thick. Internal dimensions usually match regardless of thickness. 

Best,
Matt


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## SteveBee

Since you're talking about modifying Lang frames for a Warre, Kelley sells a foundationless frame that comes with a triangular starter made on the top bar. We used some this year with no wax and the bees jumped right on them.


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## forgeblast

I just made some from rough cut hemlock, it comes in a full 1'' thick. Just drill before you nail or screw the ends in. 
My top bars and 1/2 frame top bars are made from pine. 
The box is sealed in linseed oil and beeswax mix.


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## Nantom670

People often say the top bars are fixed and are illegal, I just cut a small v in the ends and that lets you remove the frames easily. I too use cedar and if you look around, at least around here I can find cedar at or near a $1 or so a board foot. I have used a lot of cedar and even when fairly fresh cut it does not draw much like other woods. If I knew how to send a picture I would show mine.


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## Zonker

I have always been told that top bars are illegal because they can't be inspected, but when I checked the actual language of both the code and the regulations I discovered that it isn't true (at least not in Virginia). If the state Aparist has reason to suspect that my hives are sick I must let him inspect, but there is no language requiring that I use a specific hive design. As a matter of fact the code even mentions tree gums as a type of legal hive. 

I built my warre's with simple fixed bars.


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## Beeophyte

Hi Zonker, glad to see another virginian here. The head of the local beekeeping club told me he knew a Warré keeper in the area so I figure it must be okay here.


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## Zonker

I'm trying to create a compound that will feed me. I don't want to just be "off" the grid. I don't even want to be "of" the grid, so nothing on the property that I can't make by hand (no PV panels, power tools, etc.). I can make a standing tree into a warre hive with hand tools, but I can't make foundation, queen excluders, etc., so warre's are the right answer for me. Frames are a lot of extra work when you're using hand saws and hand planes, so I'm glad the state hasn't gotten around to telling what type hive I'm allowed to use.

Also I'd like to meet that warre guy. I'm pretty new at it and would love to talk with someone with some experience.

Also, also, I wish the was a warre area in the beesource for the same reason.


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## Nantom670

You can go to this site and almost talk to Warre, you can download his book "Beekeeping for All" free. Just go there and click on the book and save it to your computer or just bookmark it. He explains his whole approach.


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## Beeophyte

I spent a little time 'off' grid myself years ago. I respect your independence. Good luck with your Warré Hives.


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## Zonker

I ....


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## Zonker

I only have hand tools so I have to make boxes simple. I make the top bars by ripping 1 x material to width, then using a rasp to sharpen/shape the bottom. Then I just nail the bars into place. I like to think that the bees rough surface. Its really quick and easy (and most importantly really cheap)


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## Zonker

"The box is sealed in linseed oil and beeswax mix." genius!!! That's perfect.


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## BeekeepingIsGood

Beeophyte said:


> The glue I use is Titebond II. It is cheap and waterproof.


I'm curious to know if you did anything to the cedar before applying the glue? I'm hearing various reports of titebond not working on cedar unless you sand or wipe it with acetone first.


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## Beeophyte

Beekeeping.IsGood.ca said:


> I'm curious to know if you did anything to the cedar before applying the glue? I'm hearing various reports of titebond not working on cedar unless you sand or wipe it with acetone first.


I can't say if you should pretreate with acetone first or not. I can say I didn't know about that or bother with it. I usually sand things before I glue them. Otherwise I just glued and screwed. 

The boxes are fine. They've been sitting outside for a year completely bare (unpainted). They've come through a wind, rain, snow, and direct sun.

No problems whatsoever.


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## SteveBee

I just glued and screwed also. Seems to be holding up well. Since you don't inspect the hive often, there's not much stress on the joints.


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## Zonker

I have never had a problem (and I do a lot of gluing). I think that acetone will chase your bees away. Cedar is really porous so you have to be careful to use enough glue. I normally apply glue to both pieces and let them sit for a bit


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## doc25

I've heard if you wet wood (dampen it not soak) before you glue the glue will not go in too deep and will make a better joint. I believe this came from Norm Abram (This Old House fame).


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## Zonker

Dampening works with the gorilla glue, but you have to be careful. The gorilla glue expands and can push the joints apart if you use to much. Titebond Type II or Type III is what I use. They are both for exterior use and clean up with water.... and most importantly they're pretty cheap. The joint that is used in bee boxes is end grain to end grain which is the weakest possible joint for glue, so you really need a mechanical connection, i.e. dovetails or screws.


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## psfred

Any hive with non-removable frames is illegal in Indiana, and the bee inspector can burn it immediately. Gums are absolutely forbidden, as are skeps.

There isn't much point in a Warre hive if you have to make removable frames other than it would be easier to work since the frames are lighter (on the order of standard European hives, which typically are square rather than rectangular).

Nice hives for small spaces though.

Peter


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## beeman2009

psfred,

I was of the same line of thought as you until I spoke to Mike Studer, TN State Apiairst. He told me that ALL TBH's, including Warre's were legal. The beekeeper just has to accept the fact that if they need to inspect, comb attachment will be cut. He said he usually lets the beekeeper do this for him, but he doesn't mind it at all. Check in your state. A top bar is a 1 sided frame.


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## psfred

Well, the point of a Warre hive is that you don't remove bars or frames, isn't it? Simple beekeeping, after all.

If you are going to have removable anything, I suggest making frames rather than just a bar, it makes life much easier, but then you just have a Langstroth hive of non-standard dimensions. Not having a bottom bar will lead the bees to make a solid sheet of comb, and hence quite a mess when you have to remove boxes or bars.

Probably a nit-picking thing, but lack of surrounding frames is far more a problem for the beekeeper than the bees. Certainly a smaller box is hardly a problem, it's all I can do to swing around a full deep these days, and I'm quite sure there are many people who would like to have a hive or two of bees for whom full sized Langs are just too much.

Peter


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## Zonker

Its amazing how many things I do to produce food are illegal. Can't drink rain water. Can't plant fruit trees. Can't raise rabbits for food. Can't raise chickens for any reason. Can't raise tilapia except indoors. Can't use bee hives that I can build myself. I guess they'll feed me in prison, so I'll have food one way or another.

Virginia just got around to promulgating bee regulations and its specifies that hive must have removable frames.


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## BeekeepingIsGood

Thanks everyone for the reassurance. I believe I have eastern white cedar. It seems to have bonded well. I did some test with sanding and without sanding and it didn't make any noticeable difference.




psfred said:


> Well, the point of a Warre hive is that you don't remove bars or frames, isn't it? Simple beekeeping, after all.


I think you're oversimplifying the matter a bit. There's a a few details about the warré I find advantageous(quilt box/roof). Some can be applied to a lang. I used no frames last year and still did some comb by comb inspections though it was admittedly trickier. I'm torn about it because it was impressive to see how cozy everything was with combs right to the edge but I am planning to make frames for hives next year.






I'm sticking with the non-standard dimensions for a few reasons: I think the smaller dimensions allow the bees to fill the space better and control climate(I'm actually making them smaller than the warre standard), smaller natural comb is more managable and I'm interested in trying 2" cedar and the bee shops here only sell standard 10 frame pine hives.



> so I'll have food one way or another.


You won't have food if you catch foul brood, but hopefully you'll be able to spot that. Besides how often does that really happen?


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