# Unlimited Broodnest



## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

M. Bush has a few words to say about it:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm

It is all new stuff to me.... kinda interesting.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

It would seem to me any hive without a qx would qualify.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Mark, it is a very old concept that has been given a fancy new name. I reckon the new beeks had to name it something. I have been giving my queens free run of my equipment for 39 years. I know that many operations that have been around for 100 years have been doing the same. A mature healthy well bred queen will outlay two deeps or a single and a half hive easily in the build up period during spring. We add supers before the flow and we do not use queen excluders to confine queens. We give them run of the place so to speak. She can lay where ever she pleases. Thus she builds up huge populations of bees for the honey flow. While at the same time reducing the chance of "compressional Swarming" that can be caused by reducing the queens ability to lay in a confined space caused by a queen excluder. Because the queens have built up a huge work force, they fill supers up quicker and maybe in theory make a little more honey. Mark, it is just old fashioned tried and true bare knuckle management that someone in the past few years thinks they discovered and given a fancy name. TED


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

I do the same TED....I just use an excluder to prevent a over aggressive queen from delaying me extracting honey! This year half the hives are getting deeps for honey instead of mediums as well! Wheres my back pain meds???


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## victory1504 (Mar 27, 2010)

I also use an excluder sparingly and suffer with back pain. My question is why would you use deep supers instead of mids or shallows for surplus honey ?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It is an old idea that has had several names and one that is still used by many people. David Eyre of www.beeworks.com is a big proponent as is Dee Lusby.

The concept is more then one thing. For the long version the link to my site quoted above is good. You can find it under "food chamber" in the older ABC-ZYZ of beeculture.

So, the short version is that ULBN usually involves three concepts:

o Not limiting the brood nest to a small area.

o Getting the queen to lay in more boxes. (like 3 deeps, or four mediums or five or six eight frame mediums)

o Leaving the bees more stores to rear brood on in the spring. (again overwintering with an additional box of stores)


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

my experience here is that for us unlimited brood nest dosn't work for honey production. We find that with 2 deep brood boxs and mediums on top when the honey starts to flow the bees fill the top brood box with honey and are reluctant to go any further it's like they feel they have enough stores so start to shut it down.

frazz


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, bee psychology!

An interesting but not much talked about subject!


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

But if you had a queen excluder on they might have done the same, shut down early. TK


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Mark, it is a very old concept that has been given a fancy new name. I reckon the new beeks had to name it something.


How new is "new"?

In 2001 a Bee-L poster says:

"I manage all colonies in the *old* unlimited brood nest management which utilizes ... "

Dee Lusby has refered to the technique as "traditional".

"Beekeepers actively manipulating and working colonies up during the third year, need to learn to manage their bees using traditional-style unlimited brood nests,"


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

What would a non-fancy term for this method be? -Assuming one is writing about it and needs to keep referring to the method with a descriptive term of _some_ sort when comparing various practices.
What's a better term to describe the concept? _What was it called before the fancy new name was coined?_ Or was there no need for a name at all then because was just normal bee management that everyone used?
Even though the method has been used commonly for a long time, I would think a term for it is now needed particularly when writing, because so many people do use excluders nowadays.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Omie said:


> What would a non-fancy term for this method be?


Unrestricted Broodnest.

But heck, does it matter, too much debate over words. Any term that gets the meaning across is fine.

Teds been doing it, not talking about / defining it.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Unrestricted Broodnest.
> But heck, does it matter, too much debate over words. Any term that gets the meaning across is fine.
> Teds been doing it, not talking about / defining it.


lol, yes I see your point. I can't think of a plainer term for it either.
It's true when one starts writing about something it requires using a descriptive term that one might not need when just doing it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Like "The Mountaincap Method". A beesource term for feeding dry sugar.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> Like "The Mountaincap Method". A beesource term for feeding dry sugar.


I prefer calling that technique the "Johansson Method"... 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237523


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Wasn't it called the 'Mountaincamp' method, after the forum member's name? (not mountaincap)... and of course that's a method that's been around a long time as well.
I dread to think what might be described as the Omie Method some day...no doubt some rather kooky 'bee-hugger' technique. lol! maybe like that French BK with the tickly mustache in _Queen of the Sun_.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Omie...

Are you practicing "Typo-Free Posting"?

Some of us are still on the typo-treadmill.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ah! I've seen the mountaincamp method referred to a few times.

Finally I find out what it is!


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

what is the difference between all these new terms and the age old argument of using a queen excluder or not?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The boredom level of the people discussing it.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

When I started beekeeping I used the traditional restricted brood nest from cut comb days. I now prefer the new hip unlimited brood nest. Now I dont have to treat for mites.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Fellow Beekeepers, I am a pre-1984 beekeeper. Letting your queens run wild and lay wherever she wants to, is just normal management to me. It is how I was taught beekeeping. I was taught by some of the best southeastern USA honey producers of their day. They did not limit their queens laying capacity by restricting her. They manipulated their colonies in such a way, as I do today, to force the queen back down by manipulation of honey in the supers as the bees move nectar up. (Queen excluders were usually used by bee producers. The excluders were placed between the two deeps of the broodnest for easy package bee production. Thus the brood chamber was actually one deep.) The symantics of what you call it-- unlimited brood nest, expanded brood nest...I could care less about. It is just good old fashioned management that has been around since Langstroth invented the bee space. TK PS,,,Queen excluders do have a place in any beekeeping operation for management purposes. Everyone should keep a few around because you never know when You do have to restrict a queen for various purposes.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

ted
I am always looking for new Ideas. In ny to winter bees without a qx most of the time the bees will put too much honey upstairs and need honey put down in order to winter. we take bees to sc for the winter in two med supers. how do I this without a qx. thanks


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## wadehump (Sep 30, 2007)

agree with teds post started keeping bees pre mites in 1974 as a young boy with my father bought 10 hives from a widow for $100. we used queen excluders that were in the equipment we purchased to keep queens locked in a hive after they swarmed for about a week then removed them so i have been unlimited for a long time.  maybee we could call it the HUMP METHOD.


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## bimbyjim (Nov 15, 2009)

"They manipulated their colonies in such a way, as I do today, to force the queen back down by manipulation of honey in the supers as the bees move nectar up."

What kind manipulating needs to be done? I started with 8FM last spring. I left 4 mediums on and they made it through the winter. I checked yesterday and the queen is laying in the upper 2 mediums. 

Now, do I have to do anything to get the queen to move down? What will happen if I leave things as they are and put the 5th medium on top? By nature, will she keep moving up and into the 5th medium? Then 6th medium?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Yes, the queen will keep moving up until she reaches the top super or the nectar flow is strong enough to fill the supers and drive her down. The fastest way to get the brood nest where you want it to be is reverse boxes and put the brood on the bottom board.

In my area the nectar flow usually starts the first week in May and ends the first week in June, there is no fall flow to speak of here. I give the queen unlimited space until the surplus honey supers go on and then split the two deeps of the brood chamber with an excluder, keeping the queen in the bottom. I don't need a lot of brood until August when the winter bees are raised. In August I remove the excluder and slow feed a gallon of syrup and let the queen lay all she can.


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