# Sticky  Want Swarm Prevention? Try the OSBN Method



## Diptera

Thanks so much for this! I will be trying this on some of my hives this year (3rd year in).


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## MattDavey

I should also add that it helps to scrape the capping of any capped honey on the Old Frames that are moved up to the New Box.

If you still want to use slightly moldy frames, then cut off the capping off any capped honey like when you are extracting. Move them up to the New Box, but have at least a couple of frames of foundation between them.

These frames will often get emptied out, so it can simulate a bit of a flow.


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## squarepeg

good job matt, many thanks for the bump.

that the bees will draw comb to fill up empty space much earlier in the season but just ignore foundation until it really warms up and the strong spring flow arrives is something that i proved for myself a few years back. i used frames that were completely foundationless.

and yes, that comb tends to be drawn out almost exclusively to drone cell size, (which is a good thing if one is rearing queens). the partial foundation is something i did not try, but several here on the forum are reporting the effect is the same, i.e. the initiation of early wax making which appears to help thwart swarm ambition.

if i were going to try this i would probably do something like lauri does here:

https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...sheet-of-foundation-in-deep-frames-experiment

also, i think for those in southern latitudes it's possible to get away with placing foundationless frames a little earlier the a few weeks before prime swarming. we are about 2 months from that time here and just now starting to have the first substantial pollen and nectar flows, albeit they are intermittent as good flying days are cycling with cold and rainy days. 

surprisingly, i transferred a nuc from 5 frame to 10 frame equipment a couple of weeks ago and moved it to another yard before the frames became propolized. the move resulted in the frames shifting a bit and when i checked a week or so after the move i found some new comb being built in the empty space.

it's important to remember that the hive has to be exactly level left to right when placing foundationless frames, otherwise the comb started at the top bar won't hit the bottom bar as it tends to be drawn plumb.


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## johno

Matt, I have worked a similar system with a queen excluder over the second medium brood box. I then manipulate mostly capped brood to above the excluder and bring empty comb or heavily waxed plastic foundation down into the brood boxes. This opens up the brood nest for the queen and also draws workers and nurses up above the excluder I also have holes in the handle area of the 3rd box so a second entrance becomes available. The reason I went to excluders is that many of the Carni type of queens I have would work upwards into the supers and when checking for queen cells one had to check every box. With the excluders on all supers are lifted off and only the brood boxes need checking. Also using Lauri's half sheet of waxed plastic foundation I try to have a couple on the outsides of the lower brood boxes so that drone cells are drawn in the spaces which I find prevents a lot of drones being made between frames.


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## enjambres

Matt,

This a such a clear recapitulation of your method. Thank you!

As you know I do your method, after I've done Walt's method, and before I start in on Mike Palmer's tilt-box instructions. My bees wouldn't dare swarm after all that! And most year's I don't have any issues, though I always ready with Snelgrove boards to head them off, if needed. Since I don;t want more hives this is how I manage to keep my apiary under control.

I adopted Lauri M's partial frame ideas, too. The frames the bees make on the outside of the broodnest are usually not added to my permanent store of drawn comb. They are not as nice as the combs my bees make of full sheets of foundation. Instead, I work them out of service by mid-summer, scrape the face of the foundation and cut off the combs in the voids left by the partial foundation and render all the nice, mostly fresh wax for use in adding extra coats to new foundation.

I rarely use more than 3 to 4 OSBN partial frames per colony, so I just have a set of partial foundations frames that use each spring.

I use 2/3 of a foundation sheet per frame, just whackiing off roughly a third and then combining two off-cuts in another frames.. I snap them in and smush a piece of wax in each lower corner of the foundation which is mostly centered in the frame. Takes only seconds to do.

In my area I start Matt's OSBN by the last week of April/first week of May in an average year, and I only do one side of each box with active brood at a time. I rarely have to do it a third time. It takes about 10 days for the bees to make enough progress on the first frame that opened the side, and to need another OSBN reminder. The reason I don't do two sides at once is that at that time of year I am still experiencing nights that will dip into the 20s F. In climates with a steadier warmer-up, I would probably do both at once, too. I have never seen any sign of chilled brood - and shortly after I start this I begin checking under each brood box for signs of swarming on very short intervals, 5 or 6 days, so wouldn't have missed any chilled brood. I think I am starting earlier than between cherries and apples; we don't have sweet cherries here and I think this is just barely at sour cherries, and not quite wild black cherry, either.

I don't fuss with moving frames into another box - I just pull a frame out to make room for the new one. Often I have frames that i want cull anyway. Or if I have wintered on less than a full complement of frames, I just shove them over to accommodate the added OSBN frame. And then in turn, when I've had enough of often odd-ball partial foundation frames (uneven with fat drone on either side of normal worker, which doesn't play well when you want to keep the frames as close together as I like) as I approach the mid to end of June, I just work them out of brood production and replace them with full sheets of extra-waxed foundation, which they draw out eagerly. And that's how I get the comb rotation I like, or extra combs to share out for splits, etc.

This idea really works, so don't hesitate to add it to your anti-swarm repertoire. I wouldn't give up doing regular swarm-prep checks, though, just because you read about it on the internet. You need to discover whether your proposed timing, your bees, your typical flows, your hive config, etc., all react in the same way. So ADD this, but keep watching closely, too.

Nancy


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## MattDavey

Thank you all for your comments.

I have also been using Lauri's style of frames with half sheets of foundation. They are alright if you are not planning to keep them long term and are happy to cut out the drone comb. You really need to make sure you have a comb guide on the top bar where there is no foundation, otherwise the comb can end up curved or even a separate comb made at a different angle. I've also found some hives, if they don't have a starter strip along the top at least 1 inch in height will rather widen existing honey comb on the frame beside it. Even building new comb on top of capped comb.

So now I make sure there is at least a 1 inch of foundation across the whole length of the top of the frame. For best results with foundation, I would just cut of each bottom corner diagonally. Think of the frame in thirds, left, middle and right. Cut from 1 inch down on the left section to the bottom left of the middle section. Do the opposite on the right section. So it looks a bit like this: 

\_/


I'll make one and post a photo.


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## Grins

Matt, I'll add my voice to those thanking you. I appreciate the updated version, I've been reading quite a lot about your method trying to keep up with the current practice, it's great to have it here in one place. I'm definitely giving this a go this spring.
Thank you,
Lee


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## aiannar974

Would this approach be appropriate for my situation?

Two hives - 1 with 3 medium boxes, 1 with 2 medium boxes
Both hives have mostly drawn comb
I have no extra drawn comb
I am using plastic foundation
I have 10 new boxes with undrawn plastic foundation
I plan on making one split in the April time frame based on queen delivery and also hope this is a swarm preventative.

Why use this method instead of snelgrove? Is it just to draw foundation which I need?
Will the split alone be enough to prevent swarming? Can I do both?
Since I have plastic foundation I have no whole that is mentioned in this method. Should I us a dremel and cut a whole? How big?
FYI - In our area brood really ramps up in March. I think April is our swarm season.

Thank you,

Anthony


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## MattDavey

I usually use Wax Foundation for this method as bees will more readily draw it out than Plastic Foundation.

But I had some Plastic Foundation and thought I would try cutting it to show you ways to cut foundation and get a good result.

I just used Tin Snips to cut the plastic and it worked quite well.

There are basically 3 types that I reckon work well. 

A modified version of Lauri's which is more of a Wide T shape.
The Trapezoid which will give the best resulting comb.
The Wedge which is the most efficient as it can be used to create 2 frames by using the off-cuts as well.

Most people will probably go for the Wedge shape because you can make 2 Frames from it. See bottom 2 photos.



*Modified Lauri Style, Wide T Shape:*











*Trapezoid:*











*Wedge:*











*Wedge from Off-Cuts:*


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## MattDavey

@Anthony

The question is do you want more hives?

The Snelgrove method is basically a Split on top of the existing hive, so you end up with 2 queens.

It like comparing Apples and Oranges, completely different approaches.

OSBN just involves cutting some foundation and placing New Frames beside the Broodnest for a couple of Fortnights during Swarm Season.

Snelgrove method requires you to make a special board with multiple entrances, find the queen and do a split. Then come back and open and close entrances every 5 days or so. You get 2 queens, larger population of bees because of 2 queens. Then decide if you want to make 2 hives or kill the old queen. You also need to watch that the top Broodbox doesn't get honey bound.

You could always try both methods, one with each hive and see what your results are.


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## aiannar974

Thanks Matt , that helps me a lot. This was above and beyond cutting your plastic foundation when you normally don’t use it for this 

Thank you,

Anthony


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## MattDavey

A number of people have asked about Plastic Foundation so thought it was worth doing. I'll use it anyway.

From now on I will be recommending that if using Partial Foundation then use the Wedge shape, and have at least 4 Frames per Hive.

That way 2 Frames can be made with 1 Sheet of Foundation.

It is would also be worth gluing the foundation in the groove of the Top Bar, especially with making a Wedge shape with the 2 Off-Cuts.

Turn the Frame upside down, put a line of Wood Glue (PVA) in the groove of the Top Bar, then place the Foundation in position. Wait until it is dry.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Mathew I want to ask your permission to translate the op post to portuguese and put it on my blog to make known to my compatriots beekeepers. If you are in agreement how should I refer the credit to you?


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## MattDavey

One of the Objectives is to "2. Maintain wax making throughout Swarm Season and into the Main Flow."
I haven't really explained how to do that in the Steps, so will add one last Step:

*5. Ensure that there is at least 2 Undrawn Frames, either beside or in the Box directly above the Broodnest throughout the Swarm Season. This is to maintain Wax Making by getting the bees to draw out new comb. (These Frames can be full sheets of foundation.)*


The reason I add this is the experience I had with one hive.

It had completely drawn out the New Box and I had moved 2 Drawn Frames up into another New Box (3rd Box).
They had started to drawn out the Foundation in the 3rd Box, but then stopped and started Swarm Preparation.

The reason this happened was because they had completed the Honey Dome around the Broodnest.

Do not allow the bees to complete the Honey Dome around the Broodnest! 
Think of the Broodnest like a watermelon shape. Where the Red part is Brood and the White part is Honey. 

You want to maintain a Hole in the (White) Honey part. 

So throughout Swarm Season ensure there is always at least 2 Undrawn Frames beside or in the Box above the Broodnest for the bees to work on drawing out comb. Keep them working on building new comb until well into the Main Flow.


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## MattDavey

@Eduardo

Thank you for asking. 
Yes, you may translate and use the content of the OP, this Thread and my Web Page. 
Please refer to my Web Page as your main source of information, as it has all the details in one place.


The Web Page for *Opening the Sides of the Broodnest* is:

http://daveybees.wikidot.com/openingthesides


For Credit, please use the following:


*Opening the Sides of the Broodnest*
Matthew Davey
Victoria
Australia

Web Page: http://daveybees.wikidot.com/openingthesides

The content of this web page is licensed under:
Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License


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## Eduardo Gomes

MattDavey said:


> For Credit, please use the following:
> 
> 
> *Opening the Sides of the Broodnest*
> Matthew Davey
> Victoria
> Australia
> 
> Web Page: http://daveybees.wikidot.com/openingthesides


Very grateful Matthew :thumbsup:. I will do as you say.


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## gopherknoll

This will be our first year to try this method. Last year 7 of our 8 hives swarmed, so we did a lot of research to find options to prevent that. Using Walt Wright's guidance, we identified the end of January as the time we should start manipulations - kind of scary since we still have nights in the 20s here in East Texas. However, we reversed brood boxes on several hives and used the frames with 1/2 foundation cut out at the sides of the broodnest - which was (after reversal) in the bottom brood box. We also added a medium super above the top brood box containing two lightly pulled foundations in the center and then filled with heavily waxed plastic foundation. 



Twelve days later, we were amazed that the bees had filled most of the openings left beside the broodnest, and often pulled out the foundation area, and already had capped larvae in the area. Not only that, but they have moved up into the honey super and began heavily pulling comb in that area, as well. This happened in all three of the hives we checked yesterday and we assume the others are equally busy. As fairly new beekeepers, we have very little pulled comb to use and are ecstatic to see them pulling comb so readily a full 6 weeks before we will have a strong honey flow!



Questions: 1. As we add additional medium honey supers to the stack, should they be added above the one the bees are pulling? Or below and just above the brood boxes?
2. We are trying to reconfigure our hives to using only one deep brood and then using mediums above that. In an effort to build up sufficient brood comb in medium supers, we did our second manipulation by simply adding a medium frame beside the brood (not cut out - but since it is short, it leaves an additional gap below the frame.) We did that on only one side of the broodnest. Comments?


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## MattDavey

*Example of the OSBN Method:*

So let's look at an example using the following notation:

P = Partial Frame of Foundation (OSBN Frame)
N = New Frame with Foundation.
D = Frame of older Drawn Comb with some honey, nectar or pollen.
B = A frame with some Brood on it.

Frames that have been moved are in Bold.
*

BEFORE*

NNNPPPPNNN (New Box, 4 Partial Frames)


DDBBBBBDDD (Single Brood Box, 5 Frames of Brood)
*


AFTER 1ST OSBN MANIPULATION*

NNNP*DD*PNNN
D*P*BBBBB*P*DD

Expecting the bees to work on at least the 2 New Frames in the Brood Box, as these are the Holes in the Broodnest:*



RESULT AFTER 2 WEEKS
*
NNNPBBPNNN
DBBBBBBBDD

Partial Frames have been mostly drawn and have Brood. Brood on the bottom inbetween the Old Drawn Frames in the New Box, bees have expanded into the New Box.
*


AFTER 2ND OSBN MANIPULATION*

NNN*D*BB*D*NNN
*P*BBBBBBB*P*D

Expecting the bees to work on at least the 2 New Frames in the Brood Box, as these are the Holes in the Broodnest, and also start drawing out New Foundation Frames.
*


RESULT AFTER ANOTHER 2 WEEKS
*
NDDBBBBDNN
BBBBBBBBBD

Partial Frames have been mostly drawn and have some Brood. Brood on the bottom of the Old Drawn Frames in the New Box, bees have become established into the New Box and drawing out New Frames of Foundation.*


What I do:*


Pull out 2 New Partial Frames from the middle of the New Box before opening the hive.
Take out the Outermost Frame from each side of the Brood Box, check them for eggs or brood. If none, scrape or cut off any honey cappings and put the Old Frames straight into the middle of the New Box
In the Brood Box look for capped brood on the next outer frames. If none, pull out the frame and look for eggs.
If no eggs or brood, slide the frame over and look for eggs or brood on the next frame, etc.
Once you see eggs or brood, you now know where the edge of the Broodnest is (and you've usually only had to look at 1 or 2 frames).
These are the only brood frames that I look at. No need to look for the queen or queen cells at this time in the season. If there are eggs you have a queen. If she has space to lay, there won't be queen cells. (And if they are making wax and building comb they are unlikely to want to swarm.)
Give them at least 2 (or 4 new frames in a double brood box) to work on. This helps to decrease the frequency that you need to go into the hive (compared to just adding 1 frame.)


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## aran

MattDavey said:


> *Example of the OSBN Method:*
> 
> So let's look at an example using the following notation:
> 
> P = Partial Frame of Foundation (OSBN Frame)
> N = New Frame with Foundation.
> D = Frame of older Drawn Comb with some honey, nectar or pollen.
> B = A frame with some Brood on it.
> 
> Frames that have been moved are in Bold.
> *
> 
> BEFORE*
> 
> NNNPPPPNNN (New Box, 4 Partial Frames)
> 
> 
> DDBBBBBDDD (Single Brood Box, 5 Frames of Brood)
> *
> 
> 
> AFTER 1ST OSBN MANIPULATION*
> 
> NNNP*DD*PNNN
> D*P*BBBBB*P*DD
> 
> Expecting the bees to work on at least the 2 New Frames in the Brood Box, as these are the Holes in the Broodnest:*
> 
> 
> 
> RESULT AFTER 2 WEEKS
> *
> NNNPBBPNNN
> DBBBBBBBDD
> 
> Partial Frames have been mostly drawn and have Brood. Brood on the bottom inbetween the Old Drawn Frames in the New Box, bees have expanded into the New Box.
> *
> 
> 
> AFTER 2ND OSBN MANIPULATION*
> 
> NNN*D*BB*D*NNN
> *P*BBBBBBB*P*D
> 
> Expecting the bees to work on at least the 2 New Frames in the Brood Box, as these are the Holes in the Broodnest, and also start drawing out New Foundation Frames.
> *
> 
> 
> RESULT AFTER ANOTHER 2 WEEKS
> *
> NDDBBBBDNN
> BBBBBBBBBD
> 
> Partial Frames have been mostly drawn and have some Brood. Brood on the bottom of the Old Drawn Frames in the New Box, bees have become established into the New Box and drawing out New Frames of Foundation.*
> 
> 
> What I do:*
> 
> 
> Pull out 2 New Partial Frames from the middle of the New Box before opening the hive.
> Take out the Outermost Frame from each side of the Brood Box, check them for eggs or brood. If none, scrape or cut off any honey cappings and put the Old Frames straight into the middle of the New Box
> In the Brood Box look for capped brood on the next outer frames. If none, pull out the frame and look for eggs.
> If no eggs or brood, slide the frame over and look for eggs or brood on the next frame, etc.
> Once you see eggs or brood, you now know where the edge of the Broodnest is (and you've usually only had to look at 1 or 2 frames).
> These are the only brood frames that I look at. No need to look for the queen or queen cells at this time in the season. If there are eggs you have a queen. If she has space to lay, there won't be queen cells. (And if they are making wax and building comb they are unlikely to want to swarm.)
> Give them at least 2 (or 4 new frames in a double brood box) to work on. This helps to decrease the frequency that you need to go into the hive (compared to just adding 1 frame.)


Fantastic explanation mate cheers! Ill give this a fair shake this spring!


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## squarepeg

bgosnell said:


> Questions: 1. As we add additional medium honey supers to the stack, should they be added above the one the bees are pulling? Or below and just above the brood boxes?
> 
> 2. We are trying to reconfigure our hives to using only one deep brood and then using mediums above that. In an effort to build up sufficient brood comb in medium supers, we did our second manipulation by simply adding a medium frame beside the brood (not cut out - but since it is short, it leaves an additional gap below the frame.) We did that on only one side of the broodnest. Comments?


bgosnell, congrats on getting your bees into the wax drawing mode. that is an important step in keeping them from going into swarm mode.

my experience with placing undrawn supers just above the brood boxes was that it pushed the colony into swarm mode. i have better luck putting foundation supers (with extra wax applied and perhaps a bait frame in the middle with a little drawn comb on it) at the top of the stack until they starting pulling comb, and then move them down the stack along with putting the most full and/or capped supers up to the top.

using the short frames in the deeps will probably accomplish the same thing, but you will end up having to cut the comb off the bottom of it. it makes more sense to use a deep foundationless frame like the ones pictured in the posts above.


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## MattDavey

Fantastic Bgosnell!

Sorry, didn't see you post until now.

1. I would focus on the box above the Broodnest for drawing foundation. Because Nurse bees graduate to Wax Makers. Note: I would have at least 4 Drawn frames in a box before expecting the bees to move into it and start drawing foundation, especially early in the season.

2. With a mix of Mediums and Deeps, you could swap out the Deep Box for 2 Medium Boxes and place the Deep Frames in the Top Medium hanging down into the Bottom Medium. You then get 2 Medium Frames instead of 1 Deep frame getting drawn in the OSBN positions.

So that will give you your 4 Drawn Medium frames to move up into the New Box. They will likely have Brood on them. But you can fix that later.


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## gopherknoll

Thank you both for the feedback! It's exciting to see this working so well. Given how quickly the bees pulled out that first manipulations, I'm just hoping we can keep up with them. Cold, wet weather isn't helpful in that regard.


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## aran

MattDavey said:


> *Opening the Sides of the Broodnest - OSBN*
> *
> Main points:*
> 
> 
> Develops comb building before swarm season, which helps to reduce swarming. Due to extra comb for nectar storage and using up of nectar to make wax.
> Enlarges the size of the Broodnest when the bees would usually be reducing it by backfilling, because the queen lays in empty comb as it is being built.
> Can be done at colder temperatures than Opening the Broodnest.
> Does not touch the Broodnest, so it doesn't force bees to heat a larger volume than they are used to heating. Which can cause chilled brood. (Especially with Carniolans).
> Does not split the Broodnest, so if cold weather sets in there is no possibility of having the cluster split and emergency queen cells made by the queenless cluster.
> The bees still have direct access to the frames that were beside the Broodnest, but now they are above instead. Not a problem, when heat rises.
> The bees can build the comb in their own time, but the empty space (Hole) gives them an incentive to build comb.
> *What you will need:
> *
> At least 1 box of new undrawn frames, which are the same size frames as your brood box. (If a few of these are partially drawn, empty frames, this also helps.)
> *
> Conditions:*
> 
> 
> No feeding
> Frames are all the same size
> Start about 3 weeks before you usual Swarm Season (or when you see Drone Brood).
> Do every 2 weeks until bees are drawing out multiple combs in the New Box.
> New frames have a Hole large enough for the bees to want to fill it.
> *Purpose:
> *
> OSBN is a Swarm Prevention method for Beekeepers who have enough Bee Hives
> (IE, when you don't want to do Splits and make more Bee Hives)
> AND for New Beekeepers or Second Year Beekeepers especially those who don't have any spare, empty comb coming into spring.
> *
> Aim:
> *
> To get the bees building comb in a New Box/Super before swarm season starts, to help reduce swarming and to get a honey crop.
> *
> Objectives:
> *
> 1. Develop Wax Makers well before Swarm Season.
> 2. Maintain wax making throughout Swarm Season and into the Main Flow.
> 3. Encourage enlargement of the Broodnest until the Main Flow.
> *
> 
> OPENING THE SIDES OF THE BROODNEST*
> 
> *Steps:*
> 
> 
> 
> About 3 weeks before your usual Swarm Season, move each outermost frame from a brood box up into the middle of a New Box (of undrawn Frames), placed directly above the Broodnest. (So that 2 Frames have moved up.)
> Insert a New Frame (with a large "hole") on each outside edge of the Broodnest of the brood box. So that Brood frames are only on one side of each new frame. (2 new frames inserted.)
> Check the Hive in 2 weeks and repeat the steps if comb has been at least partially drawn on the New Frames in the Brood Box. (2 Frames moved up, 2 Frames inserted into the Broodnest.) You will now have 4 Drawn Frames that have been moved up into the New Box.
> Check again in 2 weeks. The New Box should now be mostly drawn. You can repeat the steps again with another New Box on top.
> *
> PLEASE NOTE:*
> 
> 
> 
> The New Frame can be empty drawn comb or foundation, but should have a large "hole" that is equivalent to at least 1/4 of the frame. You can just cut off the bottom corners off the comb or foundation.
> *The Hole will be filled with Drone Comb.*
> If the outermost Broodbox frames are moldy, you may wish to remove them completely and not put on a new box until the third step.
> If you want the bees to use the honey on slightly moldy frames, then move them up to a new box, but have at least a few frames of foundation between them. The frames will usually get emptied out.
> You can start doing this method as soon as Drones are starting to be raised and the weather forecast for the next week is warm.
> For the bees to move into a box, I have found it best to have at least 3 or 4 drawn combs together, in the middle of the new box. When there is less than 3 frames in a box and not together, they usually get emptied out. So if you have a spare drawn comb, the more the better.
> The timing of 2 weeks is for deep frames. If you use mediums, the times will be shorter and can be more like 1 week.
> Best to use all the same size frames.
> As a guide for when to start Opening the Sides of the Broodnest. I would start around half way through the period between Cherry blossoms and Apple blossoms. The period between these blossoms is quite long where I live, as much as 2 months. If it is around 1 month for you then you may initially need to use drawn comb instead of a partial frame of foundation. (Some areas still have snow around at this time.)
> 
> I have been working on this method for several years now and wish I had known about it when I first started out beekeeping. Give it a go and let us know how it goes for you.


Matthew i have a couple questions:
1. If one reverses the brood boxes at the beginning of the dandelion flow ( end of april here), is it all just business as usual until they fill the 2nd deep with brood? 
=> then start the OSBN method with a 3rd deep above the brood boxes?
2. Where do the outside drawn combs come from? the second deep brood box or the bottom one?
3. You said to do this when the weather forecast is for warm weather? what temps?
We can get drone brood as early as early april here some years. But the average temps are still only 35-55 F.


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## wildbranch2007

aran said:


> Matthew i have a couple questions:


one question it says to not feed, in this area during the time specified, the flows are used up making brood, I would not expect them to be able to draw comb??


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## MattDavey

@Aran

1. I have't reversed Brood Boxes in several years, I believe it caused Chilled Brood, which then caused Chalk Brood. Also, I have moved to wintering in just the one Brood Box. Reversing is really just a time delay. You mess up their Broodnest and they have to fix it up by emptying out the honey between the split nest. This gives the queen space to lay, but I prefer not to touch the Broodnest at all for the reasons listed in the Main Points.

Just add the 3rd Box as the New Box.

2. You can insert OSBN frames to just the top Brood Box or both Brood Boxes. If you do both Brood Boxes you are moving 4 old Frames up into the New Box. As long as there are a few of frames of Honey directly above the Broodnest for feed, in case of several days of cold weather.

3. When the bees can forage most days. So temperatures around 13C/55F or higher.


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## MattDavey

@Wildbranch2007

The bees will use up honey stores as well as incoming nectar to draw comb, in order to fix the holes in the Broodnest. Filling those holes seems to have a high priority.

I'm wanting the bees to use up most of the capped Honey in the hive by the time Swarm Season has started. But also want to make sure there is around 1-2 frames equivalent of capped honey per box, in case of bad weather, so enough for a week or two.

So I would only feed if their Honey stores are getting lower than the equivalent of 2 frames per box.


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## MattDavey

If anyone is trying OSBN and would like to take photos or videos of how the bees have drawn out the Partial Foundation (Wedge shape) Frames and post them here, it would be great to see. It would also be good to show if they started drawing out frames in the New Box.

(I checked and realized I only have photos of frames in the New Box, later in the process, from a few years ago when I used starter strips.)


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## gopherknoll

Here are a couple of pictures of what the bees did in 12 days from the first manipulation. We did that first one at the end of January. There was tree pollen available to them from elm and juniper and very limited nectar from small flowers like henbit and a little dandelion. Three days after we did the manipulations another cold front came through with nights about 26 degrees fora couple of nights and highs in the 30s. We were completely amazed at what they had accomplished in that time - and they had moved up into a super of heavily waxed frames we had added just above the top brood box.


----------



## gopherknoll

Another try at those photos. https://gopherknoll.com/?page_id=2709


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## MattDavey

Thank you Gopher Knoll Farm! That's fantastic to see.

For those who are not sure, this is the frame that was used for OSBN, see the worker Brood in the middle and Drone Brood on the right side.










As you can see, the Foundation was done with Lauri's style partial frames. Note: With vertically cut foundation you will often get the bees leaving a gap beside the edge.
This is why I suggest using the Wedge shape foundation for OSBN frames. (If others can post how the Wedge shape is drawn out that would be great to show.)

Also, I can see that a Comb Guide was not used along the Top Bar because of the way that the side Drone comb areas are attached along the Top Bar.
So it's not the best looking frame, because of those things. But it did the job of Triggering Wax Makers! So it did the job.

All that new white wax getting drawn out in the Super looks absolutely brilliant!

Thank you again!


----------



## MattDavey

Also, note the dark Drone Comb on the right side of the frame.
This is OLD wax that the bees have moved from elsewhere in the hive and reformed into comb.

So the right side of the frame is where they first started building comb.

This is why I say to do the manipulation the 2nd time, as the first manipulation may not actually be enough to Trigger Wax Making, because the bees are moving and reforming old wax.
Also, you are getting another round of new, younger Wax Makers as the older ones mature and start foraging.


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## aran

matt is there a reason we cant just use a starter strip of foundation right across the top bar ?


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## MattDavey

Aran, of course you can use a starter strip of foundation, but you will find that most of the comb will be drawn out as Drone comb, so you can end up with several hundred or even thousands of Drones in the hive because of it.

Look at the photo above, and you see that the 1/4 width space on both the right and left side - where there was no worker foundation, has been drawn out as Drone comb.

The Wedge shape foundation means you get mostly Worker Brood comb in the oval shaped area in the middle where the queen will lay.
The Trapezoid shape will give the best results, only thing is it uses 1 sheet of Foundation, instead of 1/2 a sheet with the Wedge shape.


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## dudelt

Talk about beekeeping being local! Matt stated in the first post "As a guide for when to start Opening the Sides of the Broodnest. I would start around half way through the period between Cherry blossoms and Apple blossoms. The period between these blossoms is quite long where I live, as much as 2 months. If it is around 1 month for you then you may initially need to use drawn comb instead of a partial frame of foundation. (Some areas still have snow around at this time.)" 

In my area the time between cherry blossom and apple blossom is much less. Last year the cherries in my yard were in full bloom on April 19 and the early apples were in full bloom on April 25. The late apples were in full bloom on April 28th. Every year since I started keeping records of bloom times, the cherries and the apples bloomed between 5 and 10 days apart. Both happen right in the middle of swarm season. My swarm season is roughly the entire month of April and a few days in early May. Knowing when your swarm season starts is the key. Clearly Seattle, Washington and Victoria, Australia have very different climates and timing. 

Matt, thanks for keeping this lesson going for another year. The technique is an essential beekeeping skill.


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## MattDavey

Wow, that is a quick transition to Spring. Thanks Dudelt.

Yes, the timing before Swarm Season will be your best guide. It takes several days for the bees to start making wax and then a few weeks to draw out a New Box.
So I would focus more on doing it 3-4 weeks before you first Swarms usually starts.

Another guide is the amount of Brood. I am looking for around 5-6 Deep Frames (or equivalent) with some Brood on them.
4 Frames of Brood or less is a bit early, so maybe only do 1 side of the Broodnest.
7 or more Frames of Brood is getting a bit late, but I would still do it to try triggering Wax Making.


----------



## clong

*Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience*



MattDavey said:


> It's great to hear how you are doing.
> 
> I was wondering if you would be interested in trying Opening the Sides of the Broodnest on one of your hives this year and compare it to your Checkerboarded Hives.
> It sounds like it would be time to start doing that in your area in a couple of weeks.


Matt,

I am planning to use your OSBN techniques with a mentee who has two hives, each in 2 10-frame medium boxes. He has no spare comb.

I will also be trying it with an 8 frame hive in my own yard. I used Walt Wright's method with 8-frame mediums last year, but the bees had other ideas.

I'll post the results here, and try to get some pictures along the way:

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?350601-clong-2018-2019-Treatment-Free-Experience&p=1700049#post1700049


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## MattDavey

Thanks Clong. That would be good to see. Also, if you could post on this thread as well as yours.


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## MattDavey

I'm modifying Step 5 to be more straight forward:

*5. **Throughout Swarm Season ensure that there is at least 2 Undrawn Frames in each Box, placed close to the Broodnest. This is to maintain Wax Making by getting the young bees to draw out new comb. (These Frames can be full sheets of foundation.)*


So from the previous examples:


*RESULT AFTER THE 4TH WEEK FROM STARTING*

NDDBBBBDNN
BBBBBBBBBD

Partial Frames have been mostly drawn and have some Brood. Brood on the bottom of the Old Drawn Frames in the New Box, bees have become established into the New Box and drawing out New Frames of Foundation.


*It is now Swarm Season

*A new Box needs to be added because of the amount of Brood. The population is increasing rapidly at this stage the bees need the space to expand into. 

For example: 6 frames of Capped Brood will emerge after 2 weeks and occupy at least 12 or more Frames. Some say even more, more like 3 Frames of Bees for every Frame of Capped Brood.


*3RD OSBN MANIPULATION *(Step 5)
NNNN*DDD*NNN
ND*B*BBBB*N*NN
*N*BBBBBBBB*N*


In order to keep 2 Undrawn frames in the Bottom Box, the first Brood Frame was moved up beside other Brood Frames. Then 3 Drawn Frames are moved up into a New Box on Top.

Depending on the amount of Nectar and Pollen coming in will depend on how many frames get drawn out in the next 2 weeks.


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## aiannar974

so after repeated use of this method, a hive might end up with almost all drawn comb having some drone brood cells on it. Do you just leave it that way or do you remove the drone comb? Can this comb with drone cells in it be moved up to the honey supers?


Anthony


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## MattDavey

Only the 4 OSBN Frames will have some Drone comb and mostly just the first 2 of those. The rest of the frames are Full sheets of Foundation.

Once the bees have enough Drone comb they build worker comb. This reduces the amount of burr comb between boxes too.

Some people cut off the Drone comb to reduce Mites as the Mites prefer Drone Brood. The bees then draw out worker comb.

From the end of Swarm Season I move these frames to the outermost edge or up into the top Brood Box so it gets filled with honey. Then harvest those frames, cut off the Drone comb and crush and strain.


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## aiannar974

Thank you Matthew - That makes sense that they only need so much drone comb. Do you only cut and crush the drone comb and extract the other comb or leave it or crush it also?


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## MattDavey

I use Wax Foundation, so crush and strain the whole frame of comb.


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## MattDavey

Here are a couple of photos from 2013. 
This is from the first hive that I tested with Opening the Sides of the Broodnest.

It was Wintered with one 10 Frame Brood Box. 2nd Box was added a couple of weeks before Swarm Season.

The photos are 4 weeks into Swarm Season and coming back after the 2nd manipulation.

At the time I was testing with frames having only a Starter Strip of Wax Foundation across the full width of the Top Bar (with 2 vertical Bamboo Skewers instead of Wire).


Here is a Frame from the Top Box (2nd Brood Box) 4th frame in.
See how mostly just the outer bottom edges are Drone Comb, whilst the majority of the center and top is Worker Comb (all from just a 1" Starter Strip):












The next photo is a frame from the Outer Edge of the Top Box, notice that it is all Worker Comb (also notice the Wax Makers):


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## MattDavey

Just a note on cutting off Drone comb from frames used for OSBN.

If you cut off the bottom of cells that contain a Worker egg or young larvae, you may end up with Queen Cells being made.

So if you do cut off the Drone comb, check the frame 1 week later (no more than 10 days) for Queen Cells.
If you want, you could use the frame for a Split.

A Split will drawn out new comb as Worker size comb.


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## MattDavey

Based on what I see when I start Opening the Sides of the Broodnest, here is more on the Timing on when to start (Medium Frames have been estimated based on Deep Frames):

*Temperatures*
Night time: 40°F / 5°C or above
Day time: 55°F / 13°C or above

*Brood - Capped and Open Brood (50% of Box)*
10 Frame Deep: 5 or more Deep Frames 
2 x 10 Frame Mediums: 10 or more Medium Frames

*Frames of Bees (90% of Box)*
10 Frame Deep: 9 or more Deep Frames
2 x 10 Frame Mediums: 18 or more Medium Frames

*Drone Brood being raised.*

*Pear Trees in blossom.*


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## MattDavey

(Sorry to do this again, but it's a work in progress.)

In the previous post the number of Mediums is too high, so it needs to be changed.


I'm trying to work out statements that can apply to Beehives of all different configurations and different environments.

From 5 frame Deeps Nuc, to 3x 8 Frame Mediums, to a Deep and Medium to 2x 10 Frame Deeps.


So I'm changing the Percentages to be about "the MAIN Brood Box" (the Box with the majority of the Brood), if there are more than 1 Box:


*Start at least 3-4 weeks before you usual Swarm Season.*
*
Temperatures*
Night time: 40°F / 5°C or above
Day time: 55°F / 13°C or above


*Brood - Capped and Open Brood (50% of the Main Brood Box)*
10 Frame Deep: 5 or more Deep Frames
2 x 10 Frame Mediums: 5 or more Medium Frames in the Main Brood Box


*Frames of Bees (90% of the main Brood Box)*
10 Frame Deep: 9 or more Deep Frames
2 x 10 Frame Mediums: 9 or more Medium Frames in the Main Brood Box

*Drone Brood being raised.*
*

Note:*

3 Weeks before Swarm Season is the most important point related to Timing.

Once there is less that 3 weeks to Swarm Season then:

If the hive is not as strong as 50% Brood or 90% Frames of Bees (in the Main Brood Box), then Open up 1 (ONE) Side of the Broodnest with a Partial Frame of Foundation.

If the hive is very weak, IE. 30% Brood or less and 50% Frames of Bees or less, then check if there is a Honey Dome around the Broodnest. There should not be frames of Capped Honey on both sides of the Broodnest. If there is Capped Honey restricting expansion, then swap the positions of those frames with mostly empty comb, or scratch the cappings.


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## Fivej

Matt, thank you for the effort you are putting into this. Very helpful.
I started trying your method last year and I use a 1/2 sheet of plastic foundation in the middle and cut out the drone comb on each end as they make it. I have to admit that I never noticed worker comb near the bottom, but I could have missed it and cut it out. But, I am curious why they would start building QC if you cut it out.
My limited experience is after I cut out the drone comb, they then build worker comb. Thanks again. J


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## Eduardo Gomes

Fivej said:


> But, I am curious why they would start building QC if you cut it out.


I also found this detail referred by Matthew very interesting. I suspect that the reason for this bees' behavior is with that we create conditions / stimuli similar to those of the Miller's method for raising queens: eggs or larvae on the edges of the comb.


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## MattDavey

With cutting Drone Comb, I'm talking more about cutting beside the Wedge shape Foundation because it is on a diagonal.
This is where the Worker size Cells on the Foundation transitions to Drone comb built below it.
There is a chance that you can cut off the bottom wall off Worker Cells that contain eggs or young larvae.

The bees may see this as a Queen Cup, and once started a Queen Cup may be made into a Queen Cell.

This is the same principle as Notching with On the Spot Queen Raising (OTS) http://www.mdasplitter.com/
(By the way this is why I called Opening the Sides of the Broodnest OSBN instead of OTS)

Another recent Thread discusses this principle: https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?352591-The-Harbison-Method-of-Queen-Rearing

The reason I mention it is because I actually made a Split and used OTS to raise Queen Cells a few weeks ago.
One of the frames had a bit of Cross Comb which got torn off when I lifted it out of the hive.
A week later I found that one Queen Cell had been made where the comb had been torn.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Thank you Matthew for the explanation. 
What you say confirms my suspicion that eggs and worker larvae at the edges of the recently cut comb can become a stimulus for bees to make queen cells. In my opinion a detail of great importance not only for those who use your OSBN method but also for those who cut part of the combs with drone brood for the control of varroa mites, and can leave cells with a workers' eggs or larvae at the combs edges.


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## Fivej

Thanks Eduardo and Matthew. I will have to pay close attention to this. J


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## gopherknoll

We have gone through most of our hives at this point, opening the sides with the cut-out frames. All have built comb to fill the holes, although not all are pulling white wax yet. Most, however, are pulling at least some white wax in the medium honey supers. Just to remind you, we are pretty new (4th spring) and have very little pulled comb to use for checkerboarding, etc., so getting the bees involved in pulling comb has been a primary goal. This system has been awesome toward accomplishing that. 

We did try using a medium foundation frame in a deep box as a second manipulation to open sides in one box. It didn't work at all. The bees ignored it completely. No pulling of any comb at all on it. Not even burr comb to fill in the bottom.

Question: Several hives had 5 or 6 queen cups along the bottom edge of the upper brood box (no larvae - not peanuts, just small cups). None of these hives showed any sign of congested brood nest or honey dome. They were not backfilling the brood nest. So.... does the existence of these cups indicate swarm preparation? We removed the cups, but if they are planning to swarm, I'm sure that wouldn't slow them down.


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## Eduardo Gomes

gopherknoll said:


> So.... does the existence of these cups indicate swarm preparation?


On my hives, by rule, it is a sign of a strong one that may enter into swarming mode in the near future (about two weeks later). But some do not go into swarming mode. It is not an unmistakable sign of swarm preparation on my hives.


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## MattDavey

That's fantastic to hear they are all building comb.

Yes a full sheet of foundation will often get ignored. Just helps to prove that new frames needs to be a partial foundation.

With queen cups, I've found all hives to make them, especially in swarm season. More so in stronger hives. It doesn't mean they preparing to swarm. They seem more to me to be made "just in case".

Well done!


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## MattDavey

Using smaller frames with foundation in a Deep Box seems to be a bit hit and miss.

Thanks Eduardo for this photo:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=46799&d=1552864893

The response of Wax making/Comb building appears to be related to if the bees in the Brood cluster are having to hang on and hold onto each other like when they are clustering in a swarm.

With a smaller frame of foundation, it may be enough of a bridge that they don't need to hang and hold onto each other.

I would assume a Shallow frame would work better than a Medium frame in a Deep Box, for example.


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## MattDavey

It would be great to see more photos or videos, especially showing the first frame to be drawn out.
Thanks to those who have already contributed.

In particular I'm looking at how much of the initial comb is built using re-purposed old comb.

I remembered this video on Youtube from Tom 4 years ago. He also used a Medium Frame in a Deep Box to trigger Wax Making:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clN9ZnXOZLc

He talks about the new comb having eggs.


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## MattDavey

I had someone ask, what would you do if you wintered with a Deep and a Medium?

Usually the Broodnest is at the top of the hive, so with the Medium Box on top, you will have some Mediums Frames with Brood.

So just do OSBN using the Medium Frames.

You are still Opening the Sides of the Broodnest and also triggering Wax Making.

When you add a second Medium Box, you may get Brood in it, but as the Honey Flows starts the Broodnest will be pushed down.

You can also use a Queen Excluder below the second Medium, as Wax Makers will move through it if foragers are actively storing nectar in that Super.


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## clong

I tried the OSBN method with one frame. A 1/2 drawn-out foundationless frame was placed into a hive on the northeast side, which yielded the following results:







Before closing up, an empty frame was placed outside the brood area, on the south side of the box. It will be fun to see how fast it is drawn out.







OSBN really works. I'll definitely be using this technique in years to come.


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## MattDavey

Thanks again Clong for trying out OSBN and documenting the results.

I notice there is some capped Brood, mainly in the new comb.
Did you notice if Brood and eggs were mainly in the new comb or both new and old?


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## clong

Matt,

I'm not sure. When I look at the photo I posted, and other photos from the other side of the comb, I _think_ I can see some light-colored capped brood.
Next time I'll try to pay close attention.


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## gopherknoll

MattDavey said:


> With queen cups, I've found all hives to make them, especially in swarm season. More so in stronger hives. It doesn't mean they preparing to swarm. They seem more to me to be made "just in case".
> 
> Well done!


To follow up on this: We were out of town and couldn't get back to the hives for two whole weeks. Most of the hives now had queen cups (not peanuts) but now many had growing larvae in them. Do you read that as a swarm cell in progress? Those hives were not otherwise congested and the queen had laying room. This is prime swarm season in our area and main bloom is only a week or so away. We did traditional cut-down splits on these and made sure each had plenty of supering. All the hives have pulled an extraordinary amount of new comb (up to two medium supers almost complete) before our main nectar flow - so that awesome. But a little frustrated that even those that were not congested seem ready to swarm. These hives are fairly hot and we are in Texas where africanized genetics are always a part of the picture so I'm wondering if they are simply a little more prone to swarming.

We had three hives that we thought would have plenty of room to grow with just one additional medium super above. We were wrong. These hives had completely pulled the top super, filled it with honey and built real queen cells (peanuts) in preparation for swarming. I'll accept that - they were congested and honey domed. Just didn't expect them to do so much so early in the season. We did snelgrove splits on these.

A couple of hives that had more space had only dry queen cups and we used OSBN once more on those hives and let them be.


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## gopherknoll

And one more question: At what point during a main flow does the hive give up on swarming and move to just pulling wax and storing honey? Or does that ever happen? In other words, how long do we need to continue worrying about the brood nest and swarm potential? It would be great to just get to where it would be sufficient to simply add a new unpulled box below the honey super they are working and have them go to town with it.... Pipe dream?


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## MaineMike

gopherknoll said:


> And one more question: At what point during a main flow does the hive give up on swarming and move to just pulling wax and storing honey? Or does that ever happen? In other words, how long do we need to continue worrying about the brood nest and swarm potential? It would be great to just get to where it would be sufficient to simply add a new unpulled box below the honey super they are working and have them go to town with it.... Pipe dream?


Good questions, Ive got some too. But, my gut tells me the colony continues on pulling wax and storing honey, because not all the bees swarm, there is still a major population carrying on their beely chores in the background, and raising a new queen. Remember, bees are hoarders, they will always pack in resources if they can. 

Im going to do this open frame process in the next few weeks. So 2 questions:

One key to getting them to expand seems to be the honey dome. When replacing frames on the side of the brood nest, we're not removing the honey dome directly above it, just on a side edge.

1. How can we be assured that is enough for them to move up, across the center honey? I understand building new comb out, but not up, or moving up, since there is still honey above the center brood nest.

2. My hive config is 2 deeps, for all 3 of my hives. I don't want more hives, so this method seems good. But it seems I need to add a new box, making it 3 deep high. As someone asked before, can I reverse deeps and use the former bottom deep as the new box?

TIA, 
Mike


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## Eduardo Gomes

gopherknoll said:


> Most of the hives now had queen cups (not peanuts) but now many had growing larvae in them. Do you read that as a swarm cell in progress?


At this point, with already present larvae inside the queens cups 99% of my hives are in full swarming mode or in a queen replacement process. You have to discern which one it is.


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## Eduardo Gomes

gopherknoll said:


> In other words, how long do we need to continue worrying about the brood nest and swarm potential?


The swarming period in my zone lasts about 7 weeks: from the last week of March, about 8 weeks after my colonies start linear growth, until reaching peak population, around the second half of May.


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## Eduardo Gomes

MaineMike said:


> One key to getting them to expand seems to be the honey dome. …I understand building new comb out, but not up, or moving up, since there is still honey above the center brood nest.


Open the honey dome with a fork to expose the honey. The bees will tend to transfer this honey to the upper box.


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## MattDavey

Thanks Gopherknoll for the report.

If the Queens Cells were not capped they were started within the last 7 days, so checking weekly with Mediums is a must.

Yes, some genetics are more prone to swarming than others.

But before we jump to conclusions, we need to ask a few questions.

Was there still any undrawn comb?

When you say they still had room, I'm assuming you mean supers, but we need to focus on the Broodnest.

Was there room for the queen to lay?
Was the Broodnest surrounded with nectar?
Was the Broodnest being backfilled with nectar?
How much Open Brood was there?

With Queen Cells, how many cells were there in each box? (if 5 or less it can be supercedure).
Where on the frame were the Queen Cells, on the bottom or randomly distributed?

If you have any photos, that would be helpful.

MaineMike, you can use a queen excluder if you only want 2 Brood Boxes


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## MattDavey

MaineMike, as Eduardo said you can scrape any capped honey to get the bees to use or move that honey. 

With swapping boxes, if there is no brood in the bottom box you could.
But you want the bees to be drawing wax, so you will need to remove some frames (or comb) to put in frames with foundation in the box above the Broodnest.


----------



## MaineMike

Thanks for clarifying Matt and Eduardo, I understand.

A bit premature but I made up my OSBN frames last night (new frame parts, individual waxed plastic, tin snips. glue and brad gun) Im ready this year, had 2 of 3 hives swarm last next, hopefully not again, working not to. One of my hives is BUSTING with bees, even now in March, no way it wont try to swarm, this will be good...

Thanks for supporting our community!

Mike

Mike


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## gopherknoll

To the questions: Yes, the queens had drawn comb available for laying adjacent to or within the broodnest. In a couple of hives she had brood in one of the new supers but plenty of space within and below the broodnest.

While the bees were drawing white wax nicely in the new supers, and storing a small amount of nectar there, they still had quite a lot to pull out and seemed to be working on that actively. 

There was no "honey dome" in these hives 

A couple of times we saw a random frame with some pollen packed in a brood nest and only once a single frame that had some nectar inside a broodnest area. 

There was very little open brood in most of these. Sometimes the queen seemed to be actively laying (small larvae visible) but usually it was 90%+ capped and only a little older larvae.

Hives had from one to three frames similar to the ones in the pictures. Anywhere from 5-12 cups in the hive.

Cells of concern on hanging on the bottoms of frames as per the pictures.


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## MattDavey

Thanks Gopherknoll, they are definitely swarm cells, all less than 7 days old.

I notice in the first photo they are all on a specific frame.
The Cups are all made from old dark wax.
In the second photo, the frame with Queen Cells is completely full, with lots of pollen.

I'm assuming the frames used for OSBN were all completely drawn?

It may be just a timing thing, as in not adding more OSBN frames beside the Broodnest soon enough. But I'll have a think about if there is anything else to consider.

It will interesting to see what the hives you did OSBN again with will do.


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## gopherknoll

Thanks for the confirmation, Matt. I'm glad we went ahead and split those. Most of the frames used for OSBN were fully pulled with a couple of exceptions:

Straight vertical cutout frames were sometimes pulled on only one side. The wedge shape seems to work better.

Using a medium frame in a deep box did not work in any hive we tried it in. We removed those - they were generally not pulled even on the foundation and no burr comb on the bottom.

Yes, we are excited to see what will happen with the hive we followed with just another OSBN expansion (and checkerboarding new frames above the brood nest).

It's been an interesting and exciting year so far. At the very least we are entering our nectar flow with many more supers pulled out for honey. And, if all the splits work out, we've almost doubled the size of the apiary. Next year, we'll have to find ways to hold back on that or find a market for the nucs.


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## MattDavey

Yes, getting all that comb drawn before the main flow will really help with getting a decent honey crop.

So how many times did you do OSBN on most of the hives?

Also, do you have a photo of the Wedge shape foundation drawn out?
It would be good to show that.

Thanks again for sharing your results.


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## gopherknoll

We did OSBN on the larger hives three times on the larger hives before we were gone for that two week stretch. First with straight cut-out frames, then with medium frames in deep boxes and finally with wedge cut frames. They all did a magnificent job of pulling wax and were exploding in numbers of bees. We've done it 2-3 times on the two hives we continue to watch.

Here are a couple of pics of both deep and medium wedges. And one showing the level of wax being pulled out on the supers of the hives that swarmed. They are working them well - but certainly not out of space to pull..


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## MattDavey

Great photos.

The queen really went to town with the Deep frame, laying right to the edge.

Thank you!


----------



## clong

clong said:


> Before closing up, an empty frame was placed outside the brood area, on the south side of the box. It will be fun to see how fast it is drawn out.
> View attachment 47029
> 
> OSBN really works. I'll definitely be using this technique in years to come.


Matt,

Here are the results from the photo above. The empty frame was added on 3/24/19, I believe. The frame is incomplete because this is queen setting up a limited-size broodnest (60% of each frame) on the Entrance side of the hive. The queen is 2 years old. I suspect she may be failing. OSBN probably wasn't necessary with this hive, but it has yielded some early-drawn comb. The comb does have eggs.


----------



## MattDavey

Thanks Clong,

It can take a week or so for the bees to go going with wax making. Depends on the population and amount of nectar and pollen coming in too.
What is the population like, as in number of frames that are covered in bees?

The queen will lay in cells that are partially drawn, so as the Brood develop the cells get fully drawn out.


----------



## MattDavey

Duplicated.


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## clong

Matt,

There were 10 frames of brood. This hive that made that frame has brood frame after brood frame where the brood is 4-8" inches wide, and 3" high. The pollen frames on edge of the brood nest even have the ring of pollen inscribing a similar area, 4" high by 10" wide. It is like bees think the Lang frames are only 10" long. Weird.


----------



## MattDavey

Gopherknoll, with this frame it looks there is no Wax Making going on.










It looks like there are only bees working on Nectar.

*So would you agree that all signs of Wax Making had stopped in the hives that have Swarm Cells?*

If there is plenty of open comb for storage then there is *no need* to fully draw out comb.

Notice only the cells with nectar are fully drawn out.

What happens is the Wax Maker mature and start Foraging, but the younger bees graduating from Nursing are *not needing* to make Wax, so they don't.

I believe this is when Swarm Preparation can start. So Wax Making needs to be continually stimulated. If it stops, then it needs to be triggered again with an OSBN partial frame.

So that is why I have the 5th Step:

*5. Throughout Swarm Season ensure that there is at least 2 Undrawn Frames in each Box, placed close to the Broodnest. This is to maintain Wax Making by getting the young bees to draw out new comb. (These Frames can be full sheets of foundation.)*

So 1 OSBN Frame on one side of the Broodnest and 1 Full Frame of Foundation on the other side may work well.
(Instead of 2 OSBN Frames at the one time).

If you had to do OSBN 4 times in Swarm Season, you would only have used 4 OSBN frames, instead of 8.

This is in order to Trigger Wax Making in the younger bees as they mature to the Wax Making stage.


----------



## MattDavey

clong said:


> Matt,
> 
> There were 10 frames of brood. This hive that made that frame has brood frame after brood frame where the brood is 4-8" inches wide, and 3" high. The pollen frames on edge of the brood nest even have the ring of pollen inscribing a similar area, 4" high by 10" wide. It is like bees think the Lang frames are only 10" long. Weird.


The Broodnest is not a Box of frames with Brood, that ring is what the Broodnest actually is. 
Think of it like the shape of a Watermelon, cut into slices.


----------



## gopherknoll

MattDavey said:


> Gopherknoll, with this frame it looks there is no Wax Making going on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like there are only bees working on Nectar.
> 
> *So would you agree that all signs of Wax Making had stopped in the hives that have Swarm Cells?*
> 
> If there is plenty of open comb for storage then there is *no need* to fully draw out comb.
> 
> Notice only the cells with nectar are fully drawn out.
> 
> What happens is the Wax Maker mature and start Foraging, but the younger bees graduating from Nursing are *not needing* to make Wax, so they don't.


Thank you, Matt. I'm still struggling to think like a bee and read frames properly. Your comments are very helpful. I saw lots of new comb and assumed the work was ongoing. But yes, I think you are right. They had quit pulling and started putting nectar in a lot of the frames. Two weeks is obviously too long at that time of year to leave them alone. I'll be watching the last couple of hives closely to see what they do with the new round of OSBN. 

Thanks again for your efforts in keeping up with our education!


----------



## MattDavey

So what does bees actively drawing out comb look like?

This photo which I've shown previously shows bees actively drawing out comb without foundation:










Notice the dense groups of bees hanging onto each other, mainly around the outside edge of the drawn comb. These are Wax Makers.
The comb that has been drawn doesn't have as many bees on it.

Have have look as this web page for photos of what bees drawing out Foundation looks like:

http://5rfarm.com/newspost/bee-hive-inspection/

Again notice there are some dense groups of bees, especially around the edges of drawn comb.

If anyone has good photos of Foundation in the process of being drawn out, please feel free to post them.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes

MattDavey said:


> If anyone has good photos of Foundation in the process of being drawn out, please feel free to post them.


----------



## MattDavey

Thanks Eduardo. Nice, both drawing Foundation and Foundationless in the one photo.


----------



## dudelt

I tried this a few years ago when I started and it worked pretty good. I decided to try it this year along side of checkerboarding. It is still really early and I just saw my first drones today. The attached pictures were taken about 15 minutes ago. These frames were put in on 03/20/19 with just a half frame of Acorn foundation. I am really impressed at how fast these were drawn. You can really see the larvae in the one photo. Additional new frames were put in today. The frames are from 2 different hives


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## MattDavey

Thanks for the contribution Dudeit.

Did you use a comb guide on the foundationless sections?
It's nice and straight.


----------



## dudelt

Yes I did. I used a bit of wax foundation or a popsicle stick as a guide. I prefer the wax foundation only because if I need to make changes to the frame in the future, removing the wax is easy. Removing a glued in popsicle is quite a bit harder and usually damages the frame. .


----------



## Gray Goose

gopherknoll said:


> We have gone through most of our hives at this point, opening the sides with the cut-out frames. All have built comb to fill the holes, although not all are pulling white wax yet. Most, however, are pulling at least some white wax in the medium honey supers. Just to remind you, we are pretty new (4th spring) and have very little pulled comb to use for checkerboarding, etc., so getting the bees involved in pulling comb has been a primary goal. This system has been awesome toward accomplishing that.
> 
> We did try using a medium foundation frame in a deep box as a second manipulation to open sides in one box. It didn't work at all. The bees ignored it completely. No pulling of any comb at all on it. Not even burr comb to fill in the bottom.
> 
> Question: Several hives had 5 or 6 queen cups along the bottom edge of the upper brood box (no larvae - not peanuts, just small cups). None of these hives showed any sign of congested brood nest or honey dome. They were not backfilling the brood nest. So.... does the existence of these cups indicate swarm preparation? We removed the cups, but if they are planning to swarm, I'm sure that wouldn't slow them down.


I often see cups and do not worry at times there are cups on 1/2 the frames in the second brood box. They make cups "just in case" You see them because you are in there looking around.  now if they have an egg or larvae then that is a different story.


----------



## dudelt

In my 7 years of beekeeping, I have kept langstroth hives every year and top bar hives (TBH) starting in my 2nd year. In all those years, I have never had a TBH swarm. When I was out inspecting the top bar hives today I had one of those "DUH" moments. It occurred to me that with a TBH you are constantly using the OSBN technique to build new comb and to replace old comb. I have no idea why I never made the connection. I made the connection today because I worked one of my Langstroth OSBN test hives just before working on the TBH and the similarity really took me by surprise. All of my OSBN test hives are booming hives and so far, there is no sign of swarming impulses.


----------



## Gray Goose

Nice when a light bulb goes off, helps fill in some blank spots, Kinda like playing Jeopardy.


----------



## clong

dudelt said:


> In my 7 years of beekeeping, I have kept langstroth hives every year and top bar hives (TBH) starting in my 2nd year. In all those years, I have never had a TBH swarm. When I was out inspecting the top bar hives today I had one of those "DUH" moments. It occurred to me that with a TBH you are constantly using the OSBN technique to build new comb and to replace old comb. I have no idea why I never made the connection. I made the connection today because I worked one of my Langstroth OSBN test hives just before working on the TBH and the similarity really took me by surprise. All of my OSBN test hives are booming hives and so far, there is no sign of swarming impulses.


Nice insight, dudelt. 

The one hive that I OSBNed, (along with Walt Wright checkerboarding) built some populated queen cells (supercedure?), but so far no swarm.

I guess I'm a bit slow on the buzzer.


----------



## MattDavey

dudelt said:


> It occurred to me that with a TBH you are constantly using the OSBN technique to build new comb and to replace old comb. I have no idea why I never made the connection.


You got it Dude! (Pun intended )

I actually developed the OSBN method through what I observed in my Long Hive. I put 2 Nucs into the Long Hive divided by a vertical Queen Excluder.

One side had a Carniolan Queen and the other side an Italian Queen.

The Carniolan's mainly had capped honey along the top inch or two of the Frame, where the Italian's had a full Frame of capped honey on each side of their Broodnest.

The Carniolan's because they didn't have much capped honey on the outer frames, after a while took off making comb like crazy. But the Italian's even though they had a bigger Broodnest didn't start wax making until they had used up the capped honey on the sides of their Broodnest. When their Broodnest expanded into the undrawn frames. 

I have also experimented with partial frames inspired by Lauri Miller and so the technique has developed from there. Thanks Lauri!


----------



## MattDavey

Clong, how many queen cells and where are they placed on the frames?
Do you have any photos?

Also, how is their comb building going compared to your other hives?


----------



## clong

MattDavey said:


> Clong, how many queen cells and where are they placed on the frames?
> Do you have any photos?
> 
> Also, how is their comb building going compared to your other hives?


Matt,

No photos. Again, I was under time pressure. When I get home from work, I can't take the time I would like. This is what I wrote in my thread for 4/17/19:

"Piper has some queen cells with larvae in them. I found two, but didn’t do a comprehensive search. Both were in box #4. _One was in the middle of a frame, the second one on the bottom of another._ I had done a brief inspection on 4/13 and found a ½ drawn frame of white-wax drone comb with some eggs. _Along the bottom, there were 5-6 empty queen cups. _ I couldn’t find it on this inspection, but I wasn’t able to be thorough. The place where a recalled seeing it had a full frame of white wax with eggs and larvae, and no queen cells. During this [most recent] inspection, we found the queen and she seemed slimmer to both my daughter and me. This hive was Walt Wright-Checkerboarded, and OSBNed. [3 frames in total] The queen cells may be supercedure, but I am planning for the worst – that it will swarm soon. I have a trap up. I hope the Lord sends a swarm in that direction."

Every frame that has been presented on the sides of the brood nest (Piper) has been drawn out. I have two supers on top with 10 frames of empty comb, and 10 empty frames. They haven't drawn any comb in the supers yet.

I find all of the hives, including the weakest one are drawing white comb when I put empty frames on the edge of the broodnest without fail. I'm not sure if I am answering your question, though.


----------



## MattDavey

Ok, thanks.

Sounds like supercedure, but need to check on those queen cups along the bottom of the frame. If they have finished drawing out the frames in the Brood Box it can quickly turn into swarm mode.

Keep adding a couple of undrawn frames beside the Broodnest every week (with Mediums) and moving the outermost drawn frames up into the middle of the super above the Broodnest. 

This keeps triggering wax making in the large numbers of young bees coming into the wax making age (which are also the best age for leaving with a swarm).

The thing is not to think about the undrawn frames in the supers, instead think of the 'holes' you are making beside the Broodnest or in the Brood Box, in order to get enough frames of foundation drawn.

You really need to have at least a few drawn frames (that the bees are actively working on) in a super before you can be sure the bees will start using the super.


----------



## clong

Matt,

Thanks for the advice. I didn't figure out the comb-in-a-super thing, until last Saturday.

This Wednesday, I'll take a closer look for more queen cells, and see if I can find any swarm cells or not. Although, at this point, if they are swarming, what could I do to stop it now, apart from an artificial swarm?


----------



## MattDavey

Yes, once they have gone into swarm mode there is not much that changes their mind. I've heard a frame or two of Open Brood can work, but splitting or a Snelgrove board is often used.

I've thought about stapling a rim around a queen excluder, so that it has a entrance above the excluder. Then do a split and put it above the hive. Put a board under the excluder until the new queen is laying. Later on merge them again.


----------



## MaineMike

Hi Matt. A quick update on my implementation of the method: Three hives, all double deeps, I reversed coming out of winter, good brood patterns in all. Now they started to build up into the top boxes again. 

One hive is really full and is a swarmer from last year, so I added OSBN frames to the lower deep of that one early, they have since filled out one frame and almost the other.

Now all hives have significantly built bood into the upper deeps now, so Ive added OSBN frames to the uppers of the other hives and added a second set of OSBN frames to the upper of the booming hive. I want to keep my OSBN management in the upper deep so I dont have to completely tear down the hive to check the frames. 

We are beginning early flows here, so Ive honey supered as well. Things are going to plan, so far... 

Thanks for you support on this!


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## MattDavey

Thanks for the update Mike.

A few questions:
Are you using the same size frames for the supers?
If so, did you move any frames up into the supers from the brood boxes?
Are the supers all foundation or are some drawn frames?
(Wanting to make sure they move up into the supers.)

Let us know how it goes.


----------



## dudelt

Matt, 
At what point to you believe the bees are done with any swarm impulse? Walt Wright wrote that once he was seeing the white wax before the main flow, his bees were done. With this method, the bees start making and using the white wax pretty early but I can't believe it would be that simple. Your bloom times are very different than mine but for me, I generally feel that May 15th is the cutoff date. Once I get past that, I am in great shape. We get hammered with just about everything being in bloom in April and the bees really go to town if the weather allows it. In April we get hit with plums, almonds, peaches, maples, pears, apples, dandelions and cherries and a thousand other bushes and weeds all blooming within the same 4 week period. With all that forage available, it is easy to see why the brood nest can be filled with nectar very quickly.


----------



## MaineMike

MattDavey said:


> Thanks for the update Mike.
> 
> A few questions:
> Are you using the same size frames for the supers?
> If so, did you move any frames up into the supers from the brood boxes?
> Are the supers all foundation or are some drawn frames?
> (Wanting to make sure they move up into the supers.)
> 
> Let us know how it goes.


All my OSBN frames are deeps, and Ive done all manipulations in the deeps, nothing in the medium honey supers. The frames are the wedge types. 

The medium honey supers just put on have mostly used frames, not drawn, well, extracted frames, so they will have to build them up.

Mike


----------



## MattDavey

dudelt said:


> Matt,
> At what point to you believe the bees are done with any swarm impulse? Walt Wright wrote that once he was seeing the white wax before the main flow, his bees were done. With this method, the bees start making and using the white wax pretty early but I can't believe it would be that simple. Your bloom times are very different than mine but for me, I generally feel that May 15th is the cutoff date. Once I get past that, I am in great shape. We get hammered with just about everything being in bloom in April and the bees really go to town if the weather allows it. In April we get hit with plums, almonds, peaches, maples, pears, apples, dandelions and cherries and a thousand other bushes and weeds all blooming within the same 4 week period. With all that forage available, it is easy to see why the brood nest can be filled with nectar very quickly.


The main Swarm period here seems to coincide with when Apples are in Blossom and finishes when the Apple Blossom finishes, so from early October until mid November. The equivalent for you would be the same as you have indicated, early April until mid May.

There is a noticeable change in the focus of the hive moving into the Main Flow. There is more nectar being stored, more bees in the supers and even some honey starting to get capped.
Also, the distribution of bees in the hive is more spread out and less focused around the Broodnest.


----------



## MattDavey

Thanks Mike.

They are more likely to move into the supers if the frames have been used previous, but don't assume that they will. Check on them in a week just to make sure they are working in the supers.


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## max2

Great stuff, Matthew. 

We are a bit off Spring here but i will give it a go.
I keep about 12 hives as singles simply to produce nuc's. The best produce about 24 frames of brood by Christmas. I take brood frames out every 2 to 3 weeks to make up nuc's. Never had one swarm - as far as i know.
This year I will do the same but at Christmas time I will add a Q excluder and a 1/2 supper to get some honey off them too

Thanks for posting your method. i will read the lot when wnter hits here
max


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## MattDavey

Thanks Max.

Sounds like a nice method to stop Swarming and make Nucs or boost other hives at the same time.

Thanks for your YouTube videos too. I have enjoyed watching them in the past.


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## MattDavey

For those who have been trying out OSBN, how are things going?

Any updates from previous posters?


----------



## gww

Matt
I am not previous poster. I am foundationless and pulling frames from the side of the brood nest or sometimes the center is how I get bees to recognize new space when added and I try to keep more space on them then makes sense.

I am still new enough that I don't know how I am really doing cause except for one year which was swarm city, I have tried no other way of keeping bees.

It works well enough for me to keep doing it. Doesn't mean they wont swarm tomorrow cause I could inspect more then I do. I have been just looking at a few to decide if I need to look further. 

I am treatment free and so it might just be that the bees are too sick to want to swarm but so far so good. I will say that reading this was part of my decision on how to manage my hives and I am glad that it was here.
Cheers
gww


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## max2

MattDavey said:


> Thanks Max.
> 
> Sounds like a nice method to stop Swarming and make Nucs or boost other hives at the same time.
> 
> Thanks for your YouTube videos too. I have enjoyed watching them in the past.


I would like to make a few more, very basic , You Tube videos. Time, skill, tools...

I had a look at your website but it does not seem to display well here?


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## MattDavey

max2 said:


> ...I had a look at your website but it does not seem to display well here?


Yes, it was originally set up as a Blog format. I will look into changing it.

Thanks for the feedback.


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## MattDavey

I have changed the format of my website now.


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## missybee

We have 3 hives making swarm cells, so far we have stopped them. We did the OSBN by putting in new partial foundation, cutting out the sides of drawn partial foundation, where they built a lot of drone comb. Putting in Frames of new foundation. 

We also, in those hives, saw a beautiful fat queen, they were slowing down her laying. We put her and the frame she was on in a plastic tote with a lid. Then went through the hive removed every swarm cell. Some we put into nuc boxes and now have raised three queens, small open cells we just destroyed. 

Then around 5-7 days later we go back in and remove any new QC's. The original queen had started laying again, beautifully. 

So far we have had success. One hive we found one open QC at the bottom of a frame, they were just thinking of swarming. We removed it, OSBN with cut frames, new foundation etc. Went in about 5 days later, found one QC removed it. We just checked yesterday, tons of brood, no QC's.

We also added 3-4 honey supers giving them room, as of 4/1/19 we had added one super, we added more towards the 3rd week of april. We started seeing white wax the middle of April, some of our hives were capping honey in the honey supers. Our honey supers are drawn comb and some are cut foundation to get comb honey. I freeze and save it all from year to year.

Our black locust bloomed about a week ago, around 1.5 weeks earlier than last year. A lot less rain this year than last year.

We are hoping they get busy gathering a lot of nectar! And forget this swarming stuff.


----------



## MattDavey

Thanks Missybee, did you do OSBN before finding the Queen cells, or did it after?
If after, it sounds like it has helped to change their mind.

With only 1 Queen cell it may have been a Supercedure attempt, but maybe the queen just needed the extra space and time to get laying well.

Sounds like your main flow is just about to happen. Have fun!


----------



## missybee

We were starting to do OSBN, the hives were a bit behind where they usually are this time of year, a wet cool spring. They all had a lot of open drawn comb to lay in, like a full brood box. Most of the brood boxes had frames with a lot of room to lay in. We had done a reverse so the top box was basically empty. 

We were shocked to see the swarm cells and a totally empty brood box on top. 

We aggressively rearranged the brood boxes, keeping the brood together (still cool) but adding cut frames, empty foundation and cutting out the drone comb on the 1/2 foundation frames. And totally removing any QC's.

We went in 6 days later, and one hive had 4 swarm cells, one had around 8 so we removed them again. Stuck them in a nuc box, with nurse bees, may or may not make it as they were not capped. We will check again next week for more swarm cells. The queen is still laying wonderfully. 

The one hive with the one QC it was on the bottom of a frame not where the normal supersede cell is, nice big fat beginning QC with some still empty QC's near by. So after what we had just been dealing with in the other hives we decided to cut them out. Yesterday that hive is brood top to bottom, some empty foundation. 

Last year we were involved in fixing up a 100 year old rowhouse for sale, worked on until mid May a hour drive from home. And it did nothing but rain. One of the few times we checked the hives, every single one had swarm cells. We just closed them up and said good luck. Still got 855 lbs of honey, 15 hives. 

But we got brand new queens as of last year lol

We are hoping we keep them home. So far so good, but you never know. 
I also do some checker boarding, esp if the top box is becoming a honey box. 

I went to your website, very nice and a lot of good info. Thanks for doing it!


----------



## max2

MattDavey said:


> I have changed the format of my website now.


Looking great and displaying perfectly
thanks
max


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## MattDavey

Thanks Max and Missybee about the website.

Missybee I didn't have much luck with reversing either when I tried it.
Did you notice if there was much capped honey along the top of the Brood Frames when you did it?
Scraping the cappings along the tops may have done the job.

But some breeds of bees will try to swarm no matter what you do.

Wow, 855lbs of honey off 15 hives is still very good considering they swarmed last year.

Thanks for contributing.


----------



## missybee

MattDavey said:


> Thanks Max and Missybee about the website.
> 
> Missybee I didn't have much luck with reversing either when I tried it.
> Did you notice if there was much capped honey along the top of the Brood Frames when you did it?
> Scraping the cappings along the tops may have done the job.
> 
> But some breeds of bees will try to swarm no matter what you do.
> .


There was no honey along the top of the brood frames. There was some to the sides of the brood boxes. 
The white wax was up in our honey supers. 

We have one hive that is filling the top brood box with nectar, totally full, a deep. We took that brood box and moved it above the queen excluder and put empty supers below and above it. Gave them a empty brood box with a mix of drawn and undrawn foundation.


----------



## MattDavey

Ok, thanks for clarifying that.

Sounds like you are keeping on top of it.

With Queen Cells I'm not too concerned with the position on the frame, occasionally see Supercedure Cells on the bottom of the frame.

The number of cells is more important. 5 or less Queen Cells is more likely to be Supercedure. Unless it is a small hive, like a Nuc.

So 2 of those hives may have been trying to Supercede the queen. Which would make sense considering all the room the hive had to expand into.

I assume you still have the 15 hives, so even with 3/15 trying to swarm, you have done well.


----------



## missybee

The thing that was strange with one of the want to swarm hives, was I found what looked like emergency QC's, small on the face of the comb, nice supersede looking ones, beautiful on the face of the comb, but then around 10 swarm cells. The other hive had around 12 pure swarm cells. 

The one swarmy hive only dropped to 5ish swarm cells after we had cut out 12 a week before. 

We will watch the other one, see if they only make one or two cells and leave them be. Or we could add one of the queens that emerged from the swarm cells to that hive, after removing the working queen. We are waiting to see the laying pattern see if they mated well. 

We currently have 20 hives, with 4 maybe queen making nucs, if you count them we have 24 hives. Two of the nucs did have queens emerge, nice fat gals. Have not seen a laying pattern yet. 

The queens are lucky to make it back to the hives. We have 11 ponds I put in, small to large, dragon flies, tons of birds, frogs, toads, etc, they must fly through a battle field. The bees love the ponds, always drinking out of them. 

I need to read your web site, again, be a little more organized in our OSBN activity..............lol


----------



## MattDavey

Ok, well hopefully you have delayed them long enough with OSBN until the Main Flow starts.

Maybe something did happen to the queen in that hive with the emergency cells.

I've also noticed a few times in hives that have swarmed that there were older Queen Cells which looked like supercedure cells, then several younger swarm cells along the bottom. As if it was initially queen replacement and then it's like: "Since we are making Queens, we may as well take this opportunity to Swarm as well".

So maybe low queen pheromone concentration (due to increasing population) can trigger an initial supercedure response and then it turns into swarm preparation because of ideal seasonal conditions.


----------



## missybee

Thanks for all your comments and great instructions. 
I will let you know how it goes, we check those hives again, mid week. Right now it is raining. Hoping all looks better ie. they are staying home.


----------



## missybee

Update:

We went through the want to swarm hives, no swarm cells in all three. But two have now decided to supersede the queen. Three nice on the face cells in one hive two in the other hive. 

All three full of bees making honey. Better than some of the other hives that have been behaving.


----------



## Gray Goose

missybee said:


> Update:
> 
> We went through the want to swarm hives, no swarm cells in all three. But two have now decided to supersede the queen. Three nice on the face cells in one hive two in the other hive.
> 
> All three full of bees making honey. Better than some of the other hives that have been behaving.


Hi Missy
You Know, if you like the genetics of the hives superceeding,, and you happen to have cells on 2 different frames you could still pull a split.
OR, I read a guy one time pulled the supecedure cells and re queened or made a NUCs Like 4 times before finally letting them finish. Could be a gift that keeps on giving. Any way if the queen dies and you pulled 3 queens off, combine 1 back. to increase or not to increase is the question is. Could take the frame with the 2 cells put it in a box and set it in the place of a fairly strong hive (flyback split) and move the strong hive and walk away. i'd rather have options then be boxed into a corner. Have fun. If they do not like her and are replacing, logically, after you pull the cells they still will not like her and replace her. 
GG


----------



## MattDavey

Thanks for reporting back Missy. That's good news. No swarms, well done.

Are the old Queens still laying? If they have disposed of the Queen, you will probably find that those hives will definitely make more honey, as they will have little or no Brood to feed for the next few weeks.

As Gray Goose said, doing a small spilt (2-3 frames) with spare Queen Cells may be worth doing, in case the new Queen doesn't make it back during mating flights. Then you have a spare. Don't want it to get to the stage of Laying Workers.


----------



## missybee

We have managed to get two of the swarm cells to make nice new queens, mated, laying great brood patterns now.

We have removed a few of the supersede cells put them into nuc boxes see if we can make another queen. 

The old queens are there and laying but not a great pattern and it appears the bees are back filling the brood nest now with nectar. 
The one huge hive, in the process of supersede we are thinking of pinching the queen removing the supersede cells and merge with our new queen. It is a beautiful hive we don't want it to slowly die off.

Beekeeps I know here that raise queens are saying they are having problems, with getting them mated and back. Our weather has been up and down, we went back to March temperatures, then in two days back up to darn hot. Lots of rain again , not as bad as last year.


----------



## MattDavey

Ok, if you have 2 new Queens with good laying patterns, you may as well use them.
With the larger population of bees they will pick up in their laying.

Thanks again.


----------



## MattDavey

Another thought about when adding the first Box with OSBN:



If concerned that adding a New Box will be too much space for the bees to heat when temperatures are low. The Inner Cover/Crown Board can be placed in-between the Brood Box and the New Box. This helps to maintain the Temperature in the Brood Box, but the bees still have access to the frames in the New Box through the hole in the Inner Cover/Crown Board. It can be moved up to the top once temperatures are warmer.


----------



## Sickdog5

Matt great thread. When is it too late to use this method? One of my hives I found a queen cup the other day with royal jelly. The queen is still in there and I tore it down. When there is a queen cell with the royal jelly in it have they already made up their mind to swarm? A queen cell that far along is probably five days old i think. about three days ago I put a box above them with empty frames of undrawn comb and moved up a couple brood frames in the middle of the new box. We are probably a week away from swarm season. Thank you


----------



## MattDavey

Hi Sickdog5,

You can keep doing OSBN right up to the end of the Main Flow. The Summer Soltice gives a good guide as to when Wax Making drops off. (Once the hive has enough Drone comb they make Worker comb in the Brood Box.)

It's part of the last step, which is maintaining 2 undrawn frames in each Box, throughout Swarm Season and into the Main Flow.

With the one Queen Cell, it very likely to be supercedure. If you have 5 or more Queen Cells, it is then that you would want to take action to prevent a Swarm.


----------



## Sickdog5

MattDavey said:


> Hi Sickdog5,
> 
> You can keep doing OSBN right up to the end of the Main Flow. The Summer Soltice gives a good guide as to when Wax Making drops off. (Once the hive has enough Drone comb they make Worker comb in the Brood Box.)
> 
> It's part of the last step, which is maintaining 2 undrawn frames in each Box, throughout Swarm Season and into the Main Flow.
> 
> With the one Queen Cell, it very likely to be supercedure. If you have 5 or more Queen Cells, it is then that you would want to take action to prevent a Swarm.


 Matt thank you for the timely response. The supersedure make sense in one of my hives because the queen is not laying thinking she is kind of a dud. She is from a swarm I caught last year so I have no idea how old she is. And the other day after I made a split with her 2 days later I found her on the outside of the hive barely moving with other dead bees around her. After picking her up she began to crawl around so I Dropped her back in and they didn’t kill her. Checked the next day she was in there but I did notice a queen cell with royal jelly in it. 

My other big hive there is a young queen in there laying everywhere. Added a 10 frame deep above brood nest with all undrawn frames except for 2 and put the a honey super back on top. There are lots of queen cups but no eggs in them. Did find one cell with royal jelly in it. This one I destroyed. Do you think this is also a supercedure ? Why would they supercede if She is laying magnificently?


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## MattDavey

Supercedure is caused by a reduction in either Queen mandibular pheromone or Open Brood pheromone. So if there is plenty of Open Brood then it may be that there is a high population of bees and the Queen is not making enough Queen pheromone to satisfy all the Workers.

At the stage you describe it's hard to tell if it's Supercedure or not, you may have caught them in the early stages. When there are lots of Queen Cups they may be considering swarming.
Would be worth checking them again within 3-4 days. I would have done OSBN on that hive, but at least you have a couple of drawn frames in the new Box, this may just be enough.

Are the Queen Cups mainly along the bottom of the frame?


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## Sickdog5

MattDavey said:


> Supercedure is caused by a reduction in either Queen mandibular pheromone or Open Brood pheromone. So if there is plenty of Open Brood then it may be that there is a high population of bees and the Queen is not making enough Queen pheromone to satisfy all the Workers.
> 
> At the stage you describe it's hard to tell if it's Supercedure or not, you may have caught them in the early stages. When there are lots of Queen Cups they may be considering swarming.
> Would be worth checking them again within 3-4 days. I would have done OSBN on that hive, but at least you have a couple of drawn frames in the new Box, this may just be enough.
> 
> Are the Queen Cups mainly along the bottom of the frame?


 The hive I split the one were I found the queen outside does not have a lot of open brood. The cell with the royal jelly in it was up towards the top of the frame along the side. There were no cups along bottoms of any of the frames in this hive. 

The big hive with the empty 10 frame deep I put on all the cups are under the honey super frames because she was laying up there. None of those have eggs. The queen cell with the royal jelly was in the bottom box along the side halph way up a frame. I will go in on Tuesday and open up the side of the brood chamber. And then inspect and see what’s going on.


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## MattDavey

Ok, still sounds like supercedure in both. But yes, keep eye on the 2nd hive, because of those cups along the bottom of super frames.


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## MattDavey

Hang on!

The Super has brood and eggs in it as well as the bottom Brood Box?
By adding the New Box inbetween you have effectively done a Split. The distance between the now 2 Broodnests could be too far apart for the Queen pheromone to be strong enough in both.

The Broodnest without the Queen is now likely to build emergency Queen cells.

You will definitely need to check for queen cells in a few days.


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## Sickdog5

MattDavey said:


> Hang on!
> 
> The Super has brood and eggs in it as well as the bottom Brood Box?
> By adding the New Box inbetween you have effectively done a Split. The distance between the now 2 Broodnests could be too far apart for the Queen pheromone to be strong enough in both.
> 
> The Broodnest without the Queen is now likely to build emergency Queen cells.
> 
> You will definitely need to check for queen cells in a few days.


. The super had some cups before I did this. Nothing charged just empty. I did this in the hopes of getting some frames drawn out because I don’t have a lot. Guess I should’ve waited till after swarm season. What are your recommendations? Should this alleviate their urge to swarm? Like I said I’ll go in on Tuesday and see what’s going on. Thanks for all your help


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## MattDavey

I was asking if there was any Brood and eggs in the Super? (Not taking about the queen cups).

It's too late if there was anyway. So I would just wait until you check on Tuesday.

If the bees haven't started drawing out the foundation in the new box then I would still go in and do OSBN. Putting in one partial frame of foundation on one side and the other side a full sheet of foundation. Just use the frames from the new box.


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## Sickdog5

MattDavey said:


> I was asking if there was any Brood and eggs in the Super? (Not taking about the queen cups).
> 
> It's too late if there was anyway.
> 
> .


 Too late for what?


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## MattDavey

To stop Emergency Queen Cells (caused by being Queenless for over 8-24 hours).

Splitting a Broodnest by placing an empty box in-between may be enough distance for there to be an Emergency Reponse. Because there will likely be a significant decrease in Queen Phermone in the Split Broodnest which doesn't have the Queen.

So if this is the case, you may now have a number of Queen Cells to deal with in that Broodnest. All you can do now is go through the frames carefully. If you don't want to use any of the Queen Cells, you may need to shake bees off all the Brood frames to make sure you don't miss any cells.


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## Sickdog5

Ohh ok got you. Cut some plastic frames the other day that i will be installing on the side of the brood nest.. I will post updates. Thanks for all your help greatly appreciated.


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## JasonA

Matt,

I have 4 hives and for the FIRST time in my 4 years of beekeeping I had ZERO swarms with your method. Every 7 to 10 days I was adding half sheets of foundation or starter strips. They drew a lot of drone comb (which I cut out after it was capped), but never made the first swarm cell. It sure is nice to see the same queens in the hive and the honey harvest will be double at minimum compared to most years. I wish I would have found this method some time ago. Thanks for the thread and the knowledge you shared.


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## Sickdog5

Update. My first hive the parent colony of a split I made 6 days ago loaded with Capped swarm and emergency cells. The queen from this hive was moved with the split so the parent colony could make a new queen. So I left all cells. Will they still swarm if there is no queen? 

The other one we have been discussing loaded with queen cells and capped queen cells. And also emergency cells. I made a split. Not sure what to do with the cells that I left in the hive because I can’t find the queen and there’s no eggs. I don’t want to tear the cells down if there is no queen. There were eggs four days ago but they are backfilling the brood nest. Don’t even know if she is in there. One of the biggest problems with this hive is I can never find the queen she is very hard to find she was marked but the bees cleaner off. Any suggestions don’t really want more bees.


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## MattDavey

Thanks Jason for your feedback, I appreciate it.


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## MattDavey

Hi Sickdog,

Yes is likely they will Swarm if there are multiple Queen Cells. Called After Swarms which have Virgin Queens.
If there are no eggs or sign of the Queen, they may have already swarmed when the first Queen Cells started to get capped.

I would remove all but the best looking 2-3 Queen Cells within the next couple of days.


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## Sickdog5

If I tear them down will that prevent after swarms?

The other hive they didn’t swarm because the hive is packed full of bees. Should I tear those down?


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## MattDavey

Yes, that's the idea, to prevent after swarms.

They are then usually treated more like Supercedure


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## Sickdog5

I will go in tomorrow and tear down all the swarm cells. Leave a couple of cells in my queenless hive so they can re-queen themselves. And then we’ll see what they do. Next year I will definitely start the OSBN method a lot sooner. Thanks


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## MattDavey

Jason, to reduce Drone Comb I've made a few minor changes to the Method since starting this Thread.

Here is the latest version of the OSBN Method and Notes. Also, go to the Website Page to view it directly: http://daveybees.wikidot.com/openingthesides 

*OPENING THE SIDES OF THE BROODNEST*

*Steps:*



3-4 weeks before your usual Swarm Season, move each outermost frame from a Brood Box up into the middle of a New Box (of Undrawn Frames), placed directly above the Broodnest. (So that 2 Old Frames have moved up.)
Insert a New Frame (with large Hole(s)) on each outside edge of the Broodnest of the Brood Box. So that Brood frames are only on one side of each New Frame. (2 New Frames inserted, one Partial Frame and the other can be Full Foundation.)
Check the Hive in 2 weeks and repeat the steps if comb has been at least partially drawn on the New Frames in the Brood Box. (2 Old Frames moved up, 2 New Frames inserted into the Brood Box.) You will now have 4 Old Drawn Frames that have been moved up into the New Box.
Check again in 2 weeks. The New Box should now have comb getting drawn out.
Throughout Swarm Season ensure that there is at least 2 Undrawn Frames in each Box, placed close to the Broodnest. This is to maintain Wax Making by getting the young bees to draw out new comb. (These Frames can be full sheets of foundation.)
*
PLEASE NOTE:*



The New Frame can be Empty Drawn Comb or Foundation, but (at least one) should have a large "hole" that is equivalent to at least 1/4 of the frame. You can just cut off the bottom corners off the comb or foundation to make a Wedge shape.
When adding 2 New Frames at once, one can be a Partial Frame of Foundation and the other a Full Frame of Foundation.
*The Hole(s) will be filled with Drone Comb.*
If concerned that adding a New Box will be too much space for the bees to heat when temperatures are low. The Inner Cover/Crown Board can be placed in-between the Brood Box and the New Box. This helps to maintain the Temperature in the Brood Box, but the bees still have access to the frames in the New Box through the hole in the Inner Cover/Crown Board. It can be moved up to the top once temperatures are warmer.
If the outermost Brood Box frames are moldy, you may wish to remove them completely and not put on a New Box until the third step.
It helps to scrape the capping of any capped honey on the frames that are moved up to the New Box.
If you still want to use slightly moldy frames, then cut the cappings off any capped honey like when you are extracting. Move them up to the New Box, but have at least a couple of frames of foundation between them. These frames will usually get emptied out.
You can start doing this method as soon as Drones are starting to be raised and the weather forecast for the next week is warm.
With Partially Drawn New Frames where the comb that is rounded off around the edges, it may help to cut off the rounded edge so that it is rough and damaged. This helps with the bees wanting to repair it.
For the bees to move into a box, I have found it best to have at least 3 or 4 drawn combs together, in the middle of the new box. When there is less than 3 frames in a box and not together, they usually get emptied out. So if you have a spare drawn comb, the more the better.
If you have to move up a Frame with eggs or brood, place it in the middle of the New Box, directly above the Broodnest.
After the 4th Step, you may be able to repeat the steps again with another New Box on top.
The timing of 2 weeks is for deep frames. If you use mediums, the times will be shorter and can be more like 1 week.
Best to use all the same size frames.
It is harder to get bees to drawn out Plastic Foundation. Make sure to rub wax on the plastic and melt with a Hair Dryer.
Do not allow the bees to complete a Honey Dome around the Broodnest. Throughout Swarm Season ensure there is always at least 2 Undrawn Frames beside or in the Box above the Broodnest for the bees to work on drawing out comb.


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## missybee

Thanks! nice refresher, we need to it better................We have cut frames in the brood boxes and routinely cut out the drone comb, opening the brood nest. We have not been adding brand new frames every time. 

But having the bees do what they are supposed to do is sometimes not possible. We have opened the brood nest, they are not building comb, we have wax un-drawn frames above some of the brood nests and the bees are ignoring them. Honey supers on without a drop of nectar placed in already drawn comb saved from last year................sign ...............and our very short nectar season is 1/2 gone.


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## MattDavey

Thanks again Missy.

Hopefully the Flow picks up for the remainder of your season.


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## Bees Everywhere

Lots of information. Thank you


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## MattDavey

Well it has been another successful season using OSBN.

We are now well into the Main Flow and none of my hives have swarmed.

The largest hive was overwintered in 1 Deep Box. It is now 5 Deeps high, so 4 Deeps of foundation were added. By the end of the flow all 40 new Frames are well on track to be fully drawn, filled with honey and capped. Also took a 4 frame split at the start of the flow.

I also overwintered a 5 frame Nuc. It is now 3 Deeps and I have taken a split from this as well.

Before using this method I overwintered with a Double Deep and would be lucky to get 1-2 Deeps of Foundation drawn, but typically only got around 1 Deep of honey per hive, if they didn't swarm. This is typical for beekeepers in my area.

It was done on 4 hives this season and several hives over the last few years. No swarms and more honey than usual.

I wish I had a larger sample size. More volunteers to try it out would be fantastic!


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## dudelt

Matt, What does a typical season look like where you are located? In my area coming out of winter the first blooms start about the first of April. During the month of April, the following all bloom. I will try to put them somewhat in the order of blooming: Almonds, dandelions, plums, peaches, cherries, maples, pears and apples. Spring comes on very fast and furious. There are also a lot of other trees and shrubs I don't keep track of. Swarm season begins in mid-April and pretty much is over by the 20th of May. Every swarm I have every seen or caught was between May 10th and May 20th. Late in May, the black locusts bloom and then the main flow of blackberries begins and is well over by the first of July. At that point, the seasonal rainfall drought begins and almost nothing is blooming until late September when ivy begins blooming.

You mention starting 3-4 weeks before swarm season. 4 weeks before swarm season and into the swarm season is still pretty cold weather with mornings in the high 30's (3-4 degrees C) and highs close to 60 (15 degrees C). I am just curious as to how our blooms and flows differ. Thanks!


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## MaineMike

I just wanted to chime in here quickly after getting a thread alert via email - I had no swarms this year and used the OSBN method on 2 hives - last year I had 2 hives swarm.

This year I let them build up comb on the frame - and some frames had necter so I left them - then when I caught them in time I pulled them and replaced with another OSBN frame.

I think it worked for me, Ill contine with it next year, and report back. But it easy to do, so why not try it?

Thanks for the technique Matt.

Mike - with snow and winter at my door step...


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## dudelt

I did try it again this year and you can see some of my pictures on this thread from 4/9/19. The method does work quite well.


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## MattDavey

dudelt said:


> Matt, What does a typical season look like where you are located? In my area coming out of winter the first blooms start about the first of April. During the month of April, the following all bloom. I will try to put them somewhat in the order of blooming: Almonds, dandelions, plums, peaches, cherries, maples, pears and apples. Spring comes on very fast and furious. There are also a lot of other trees and shrubs I don't keep track of. Swarm season begins in mid-April and pretty much is over by the 20th of May. Every swarm I have every seen or caught was between May 10th and May 20th. Late in May, the black locusts bloom and then the main flow of blackberries begins and is well over by the first of July. At that point, the seasonal rainfall drought begins and almost nothing is blooming until late September when ivy begins blooming.
> 
> You mention starting 3-4 weeks before swarm season. 4 weeks before swarm season and into the swarm season is still pretty cold weather with mornings in the high 30's (3-4 degrees C) and highs close to 60 (15 degrees C). I am just curious as to how our blooms and flows differ. Thanks!


Have a look at the climate Data for my Area:










3 weeks before Swarm Season here is mid-September. The Average Minimum for September is 5.9°C (42°F) and Maximum is 17°C (63°F). 
We sometimes do get temperatures below freezing in September, but I look at the forecast for the next week to try and avoid that.

You can put the inner cover between the Brood Box and the New Box if worried about it being too cold.

Plums (Japanese) and Cherries flower in August.
Pears, Peaches and Nectarines in September.
Apples from 2nd week of October - Swarm Season.
Tea Tree (Manuka), Clover and many other flowers from mid-November - Main Flow starts.
Blackberries and Dandelion early December.
(We have Dandelions from August-September, but doesn't really bloom until late November-December. May be a different type here in Australia.)
Nothing much from late December - the Summer Solstice.

Also, I start OSBN just before the Spring Equinox.


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## MattDavey

Starting to see reports of swarms in the southern states of the US, so if you live there it's time to start OSBN.

I have updated the website with the following Main Points to provide a quick summary of the method.*

Opening the Sides of the Brood Nest

Main points -*
During Swarm Season:

Place undrawn frames on the outer edges of the Brood Nest.
Trigger wax making with a Partial Foundation/Foundationless Frame.
Maintain at least 2 undrawn frames in every box throughout Swarm Season.
Move honey frames up and out of the Brood Box(es).
Can start as soon as Drones are being raised.

* This assumes that the hive is looking nearly full, healthy and has a few frames of honey stores.


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## CajunBee

MattDavey said:


> Starting to see reports of swarms in the southern states of the US, so if you live there it's time to start OSBN.


Indeed it is and I will be employing this technique this year. Had some plastic foundation that they were reluctant to use last year so I cut it to form the wedge and used the cut-offs to do a second frame. These were put in about 4 days ago and I plan to check in the next day or so. 
Lots of wet weather this year in my area, after a mild winter, and my hives are very light. Also feeding 1:1 to help them along. Main flow usually peaks in June when the Tallow trees bloom. I plan to continue the OSBN process till mid-July, if possible.


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## MattDavey

Cool, thanks for the update.

I've had couple of people suggest scoring the plastic foundation with a hive tool or knife and then placing it on a hard straight edge and simply snapping of the corners pieces.

Also waxing plastic foundation really helps. Kaymon Reynolds has a good YouTube video on using a roller to apply the wax. I have also rubbed wax on the foundation and then melted it with a hair dryer.


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## gopherknoll

Hi, Matt. 

This is our second year to use your OSBN method. Last year we succeeded in that our bees started pulling wax very early and we ended the season with 36 pulled supers. They did end up swarming due to a combination of our schedules keeping us from following up at the right time and a very, very rainy spring. Every time the weather broke, the hives would swarm.

This year, we've been able to stay with the system and so far we've had no swarms. Our swarms last year started (East Texas) the last weekend in March, so we feel pretty good having made it this far. The hives have really started to gain weight starting last week. We see no queen cells - just the little empty cups sometimes. The bees are actively drawing white wax for nectar. They don't seem concerned right now with pulling wax on our cut-out frames or on empty foundation beside the brood. A couple of times we saw the queen had actually skipped past an OSBN frame and laid eggs in the next over. The brood nest area has been opened in each hive several times and seems not to be confined. The honey stores above the brood nest have been checkerboarded and extra supers added so there is no solid honey crown. 

BUT - we see backfilling in the broodnest areas. We've always thought this was the first sign that the hive has decided to swarm - but it is the only sign we see and on the hopeful side, we see them pulling white wax for nectar. We've had plenty of open space in brood nest and checkerboarded supers. And this is May 1. The latest we lost a swarm last year in that very heavy swarm year was May 15. We are well into heavy honey flow. We must surely be coming close to what Walt Wright calls the reproductive cut-off or end of swarm intent.

So - in your opinion, is the backfilling a certain indication that they will swarm regardless of our attentions? We will do vertical splits, as necessary, using a Snelgrove board as needed, since we are pretty near capacity for the apiary, but wishing we could somehow hold them off for a couple more weeks more easily......


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## MattDavey

So did they drawn comb on the first couple frames when you first started doing OSBN?

I don't checkboard the supers. Just maintain 2 frames of foundation in each super. Only the top Box has more than 2 frames of foundation.

I'm wondering if there are too many options of undrawn frames for them to work on.

As long as they are continuing to draw comb. 
They may be moving that nectar out of the broodnest at night once there is empty drawn comb to put it in.

But I would keep a close eye on them over the next 2 weeks. Check within the next week.
The queen needs to have empty cells to lay eggs in, so not drawing comb beside the broodnest is bit of a concern.
It should now be warm enough and there be a large enough population to move an undrawn frame over, so that it is inside the broodnest instead. That should get more attention.


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## Fivej

Hey Matt,
I tried OSBN last season but was behind from the start and was determined to stay on schedule this year but it has been a wet and cold spring so far. I expect to start seeing dandelions in abundance in 10 days, so I am behind where I want to be. I will be doing the first full inspection and breakdown of my hives tomorrow and adding one OSBN frame and one frame of foundation, but may do each side of the broodnest if it looks like they are getting way ahead of me. Congrats on your fantastic year. J


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## MattDavey

Thanks for the update Fivej, 

I usually do a full inspection the first chance after winter and then try to get into the hives for a second inspection 3 weeks before Swarm Season. Put it in as a calendar reminder if you need to. If the weather isn't great, as long as it is warm enough for the bees to move around the hive during the day, I would still move two frames with honey on them up into a new box. Put the inner cover inbetween the boxes if you are worried about cold nights.

Gopherknoll, I should mention that I use to checkerboard foundation with drawn comb, but found it caused a couple of issues. The main one being fat and thin comb. But the other was that the bees were less focused on comb building specific frames, it was a bit haphazard. I think due to too main options. So I don't give them any more than 2 frames to work on, except in the top box.

With Supers I basically do OSBN on the existing top 2 boxes (Supers are treated in the same way) each time that a New Box is added.

So 2 Drawn Frames from each box are moved up into each New Box (4 Drawn Frames). The top box has the drawn frames all together in the middle of the box.

Remeber the focus is on creating holes around the existing nest. This is where the comb is built best.


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## MattDavey

I have been doing final extracting before winter and found one of the plastic Partial Foundation Frames with the Wedge Shape that was shown towards the start of this thread.

This photo is a close-up of the right side of the Partial Foundation Frame after comb has been drawn out on the Wedge Shape Foundation (and then extracted).
Notice that the foundation-less part has been drawn as Drone Comb and the plastic foundation drawn as Worker Comb.
Also, note the darker area where brood has been raised. The amount of area used for Drone Brood is not large.


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## MattDavey

gopherknoll said:


> BUT - we see backfilling in the broodnest areas. We've always thought this was the first sign that the hive has decided to swarm - but it is the only sign we see and on the hopeful side, we see them pulling white wax for nectar. We've had plenty of open space in brood nest and checkerboarded supers. And this is May 1. The latest we lost a swarm last year in that very heavy swarm year was May 15. We are well into heavy honey flow. We must surely be coming close to what Walt Wright calls the reproductive cut-off or end of swarm intent.
> 
> So - in your opinion, is the backfilling a certain indication that they will swarm regardless of our attentions? We will do vertical splits, as necessary, using a Snelgrove board as needed, since we are pretty near capacity for the apiary, but wishing we could somehow hold them off for a couple more weeks more easily......


Hi Gopherknoll,
Just wondering how things are going and if you had a chance to check the hives?

Karen said she had a hive stop Wax Making. I'm thinking Wax Making stopped because of lack of incoming nectar due to the weather or because of plenty of empty comb.

With your hives that stopped Wax Making in the Brood box, were they given empty Drawn Comb?

Getting them to start Wax Making again can be a challenge at times.

I believe Wax Making starts to happens when house bees don't have enough empty comb to put the nectar, so they have to store nectar in their Honey Stomach.

With OSBN I am triggering Wax Making and then trying to keep it continuing in the Broodnest throughout Swarm Season. (So I believe a Partial Foundation works to trigger Wax Making by causing the bees on the outer edges of the Broodnest to store honey in their Honey Stomach).

Now that the Main Flow has started the bees focus will be on bringing in as much nectar as possible. Swarming from now is much less likely and the Broodnest naturally reduces in size due to the incoming nectar. You want the Broodnest to be reducing now, otherwise you end up with a large population in Summer and into the dearth (if you have one). Then they will need more feed for that period.

So don't give the Queen heaps of space from now on. You can put on an excluder and reduce the Broodnest to a Single Deep or Two Mediums. Could also be a good time to make Nucs if you want some.

The hive's focus has switched to gathering nectar, so making sure they have space to store that nectar is what is needed. Wax Making is more in the Supers.

You may be able to use hives that are Wax Making to make Drawn Comb to give to the hives that may have stopped Wax Making. You can also boost the number of young bees to continue to make wax by giving frames of capped brood from bigger hives to the Wax Making hives.


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## MattDavey

Now that the southern states of the USA are well into the Main Flow, I would be interested to hear how people have gone this year with OSBN.

Also of interest, a question for those seeing backfilling of the Broodnest during the Main Flow:
Has this resulted in Swarm Prep, or do the bees continue to move the nectar up and out and store the nectar in the Supers?

I haven't seen any issues once the Main Flow starts, but would interested to see what others see happening during the Main Flow.


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## LAlldredge

As far as the states and my limited time doing this- 6a 3rd year, very late last frost date. 29 F at night just a few days ago, compared to last rainy year April when we had better planting weather and an earlier last frost date. We are also just now seeing drones in more abundance. I also felt compelled to feed for just a week recently to keep momentum and stimulate wax making. Not a big deal just unexpected. Whatever. This process is working in my hives as long as I get out of my head about the dates.


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## gopherknoll

gopherknoll said:


> Hi, Matt.
> 
> This is our second year to use your OSBN method. Last year we succeeded in that our bees started pulling wax very early and we ended the season with 36 pulled supers. They did end up swarming due to a combination of our schedules keeping us from following up at the right time and a very, very rainy spring. Every time the weather broke, the hives would swarm.
> 
> This year, we've been able to stay with the system and so far we've had no swarms. Our swarms last year started (East Texas) the last weekend in March, so we feel pretty good having made it this far. The hives have really started to gain weight starting last week. We see no queen cells - just the little empty cups sometimes. The bees are actively drawing white wax for nectar. They don't seem concerned right now with pulling wax on our cut-out frames or on empty foundation beside the brood. A couple of times we saw the queen had actually skipped past an OSBN frame and laid eggs in the next over. The brood nest area has been opened in each hive several times and seems not to be confined. The honey stores above the brood nest have been checkerboarded and extra supers added so there is no solid honey crown.
> 
> BUT - we see backfilling in the broodnest areas. We've always thought this was the first sign that the hive has decided to swarm - but it is the only sign we see and on the hopeful side, we see them pulling white wax for nectar. We've had plenty of open space in brood nest and checkerboarded supers. And this is May 1. The latest we lost a swarm last year in that very heavy swarm year was May 15. We are well into heavy honey flow. We must surely be coming close to what Walt Wright calls the reproductive cut-off or end of swarm intent.
> 
> So - in your opinion, is the backfilling a certain indication that they will swarm regardless of our attentions? We will do vertical splits, as necessary, using a Snelgrove board as needed, since we are pretty near capacity for the apiary, but wishing we could somehow hold them off for a couple more weeks more easily......


Hi, Matt. Sorry I didn't get back to update this. You asked questions that I couldn't really answer without a new visit to the bee yard. So - about half of our hives either didn't pull out the cut-out frames or used old wax to do so. Only a couple pulled cut-outs with white wax early. We were not feeding sugar water early this year and that may have made the difference there. Of 14 hives, 1 superceded queen on its own, 2 were forced to requeen early because we pinched very aggressive queens in early February. 

We used OSBN and checkerboarding honey stores above the brood nest on all hives beginning Feb 7. By 4/30 we were seeing backfilling in most hives. One small hive of Sasketraz bees swarmed - likely more than once. We have only seen queen cells in one other hive and they appeared to be supercedures in May. 4 of the remaining hives seem to be fine with no current signs of swarm intent using only OSBN and checkerboarding. 

5 hives had moved to such complete backfilling that even though there were no swarm cells, we went ahead and did a Snelgrove vertical split. When we did, the bees removed all the backfilling from the broodnest area. We took all those hives back to normal configuration and removed the Snelgroves last week. Hopefully at this point, they will be past reproductive swarm urge. We saw one swarm leave the apiary (not the Saskatraz hive) but never found queen cells in the only hive that seemed to have a lower cluster size. We caught two small swarms - possibly cast swarms from the Saskatraz.

Bottom line: Of 14 hives we feel we had only two swarms plus a probable cast swarm. On 7 hives we used only OSBN / checkerboarding. 5 used both OSBN AND a snelgrove split due to heavy backfilling. We are feeling it has been a very successful year. All hives are pulling white wax for nectar storage at this point. 

I hope I answered your questions, but would be happy to share our online apiary notes with you if you'd find that helpful. If so, let me know what email you'd like me to use for that.


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## MattDavey

Thank you both for the updates.

The weather here this year has also been frustrating. We went from drought to bushfires, then flooding. We have already had more than the yearly average of rainfall.

Having little nectar and pollen coming in will definitely impact on the bees ability to produce wax.

Gopherknoll, thanks for the offer to share your apiary notes, I would love to see them. I'll send you a PM.


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## username00101

Happy to see that this thread is stickied.


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## MattDavey

Well, I decided to start a YouTube channel and make some videos about OSBN.
The channel is called "Matt Davey Bees".

I have just finished and uploaded the first video called "Making OSBN Frames".
It's not as easy to present a video as it looks, but I'll get there.

Here is the link:
https://youtu.be/Qt6WPy_hAEI

Hope you enjoy!


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## MattDavey

I have made a few more videos, here is the link to OSBN using only Foundation:
https://youtu.be/oTsAiiYdivc

This is one is OSBN using Empty Comb:
https://youtu.be/OBwSZ5_KeZw

Both hives had 8 frames with brood, so both the outside honey frames went up to the second box.

Also, this one on attaching Wax Foundation to Bamboo Skewers:
https://youtu.be/8AAqjEZ9xQU


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## Honeyeater

Thanks Matt. I think your videos come up really well. Much appreciate the explanation and it’s easier to understand when watching. I’ve started using your method this year, and so far so good. !


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## MattDavey

Thanks Honeyeater, are your hives at a similar stage to mine in the video?


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## Honeyeater

Hi Matt, I'm in Perth surrounded with native bush, and I had my first look this season about 6 weeks ago, as soon as the weather permitted on the weekend. I found more drones than I would have liked, and empty queen cups, but no capped queen cells. I placed the OBSN frame one frame further in to slow them down a bit more. Subsequent inspections indicated no signs of swarming. I still keep on inspecting every week or two but usually here the strong flow comes mid summer when the Marris are in flower. 

Being adjacent to a national park I am extra careful not to let my bees swarm and take over the few natural hollows still available for the native wildlife.


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## MattDavey

Cool, so that OSBN frame would be drawn by now and have brood in it? 

Here in Gippsland swarm season starts the first week of October and goes through until around mid November. Main flow starts mid November when the tea tree flowers here. Once swarm season starts the key to OSBN is maintaining 2 empty or new frames per box throughout the swarm season. So if that frame is drawn and being used, you should open up the sides of the brood nest again now.

Thanks for giving OSBN a go.


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## Honeyeater

Correct Matt, and that is my plan, yes. 

And thank you once again for sharing.


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## little_john

MattDavey said:


> I have been working on this method for several years now and *wish I had known about it when I first started out beekeeping.* Give it a go and let us know how it goes for you.


Yes - it would have saved you a lot of time and experimentation. The generally accepted term for this method is "*Brood-Nest Spreading*" and is standard practice these days for anyone who uses a Horizontal Hive. 

It's a method which probably dates back to around 1860, just as soon as removable frames became popular. Doolittle mentions this method in passing during 1883 in ABJ within a reply to a reader's question - his actual wording was "* ... spreading the brood, and by other ways familiar to the apiarist.*" - so by then it had fairiy obviously become a well-established technique. Useful for both Spring build-up and to help prevent swarming.
'best
LJ


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## MattDavey

Thanks Little John, in my 30 years of Beekeeping I do not recall having seen Brood-Nest Spreading as a technique.

If I have, I would have thought it was the same thing as “Expanding the Brood Nest” as “Spreading” would imply making the Brood Nest wider by inserting frame(s) into the Brood Nest.

A quick Google search shows little references to it. Mainly in the UK. Also confusion about what exactly it is.

As you know, I would deter people from inserting frames into the Brood Nest as it forces the bees to have to heat a larger volume than what they are used to. Here in early Spring there can be sudden drops in temperature which can cause chilled Brood if that is done.

Ecc 1:9 “There is nothing new under the sun.”


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## username00101

Matt has done an excellent job at explaining this in a simple and easy -to-understand fashion.


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## MattDavey

I have just uploaded another video: OSBN with Empty Comb - 2nd Inspection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_Vq2pMqSpg

In it you will see an OSBN frame mostly drawn with Brood, eggs and Drone comb on the bottom edges.

The other OBSN frame is just starting to get drawn out and you can see some larvae in shallow partially drawn cells and also Wax Makers building comb.


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## MattDavey

The video for the 2nd inspection of the hive where I am doing OSBN using only Foundation has now been uploaded:






This Spring has been cold and wet, so I have not had a lot of opportunities to work on the hives and be able to do a video.
So the first Inspection was later than usual, right at the start of Swarm Season. This meant there were 8 frames with brood and so the OSBN frame and Foundation frame were both put on the outside edges of the box. As you know, bees are reluctant to draw out outside frames. So these frames were not drawn out as well as usual.

I also put the second OSBN frame towards the outside of the top box. So both OSBN frames barely got touched. Only the bottom one had a bottom corner drawn out.

The bees did still draw out 4 full frames and 2 half frames of Foundation and filled them with brood, nectar and pollen. So it was still successful. But it looks like the trigger for Wax Making was the gap between boxes instead as they put Drone comb (and larvae) there. I haven't had Drone comb between boxes for years, since I started doing OSBN.

So the 2nd OSBN frame should be placed beside the 2 honey frames in the Top (New) Box to ensure that at least one of the OSBN frames acts as a trigger for Wax Making.

So this is what I am recommending:


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## MattDavey

Here are videos for the 3rd inspection of both Hives. The one using only Foundation and the other using only Drawn Comb.


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## MattDavey

After last season, with a couple of the hives shown in the videos above as examples, here are some pointers for OSBN:

Best to start when there are 6 (Deep) Frames with Brood.
It helps to scrape the capping of any capped honey on the frames that are moved up to the New Box.
When adding 2 New Frames at once, one can be a Partial Frame of Foundation and the other a Full Frame of Foundation.
Best to place the 2nd OSBN Frame beside the Honey Frame(s) in the New (Top) Box.
Avoid placing Foundation or an OSBN Frame on the outside edge of the Brood Box, these frames may only get the comb drawn on the inner face. [If you have to, then only do one side of the box. Moving the outside (honey) frame and the frame next to it (with the least amount of brood/eggs), into the middle of the New Box.]
If concerned that adding a New Box will be too much space for the bees to heat when temperatures are low, the Inner Cover/Crown Board can be placed in-between the Brood Box and the New Box. This helps to maintain the Temperature in the Brood Box, but the bees still have access to the frames in the New Box through the hole in the Inner Cover/Crown Board. It can be moved up to the top once temperatures are warmer.
It is harder to get bees to draw out Plastic Foundation. Make sure to coat the Plastic Foundation well with wax!


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## Cloverdale

I am going to try this this year, thanks Matt.


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## username00101

Thanks, Matt.


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## MattDavey

Here is the video again for making OSBN Frames, please think about safety when cutting plastic foundation. Also, when breaking the two pieces, it's best to bend them so that where it has been scored gets split. It then breaks easily.


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## TXbybk

Hey, Matt. I just stumbled upon this discussion earlier this morning and have been reading it and your website ever since. I do have a question: What changes would you suggest for those of us with 8 frame hives? 
Thanks for all the effort you have put into developing the OSBN method!


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## MattDavey

With smaller boxes you will want to only work on one side of the broodnest. It just means that you may need to check on the hive more often.

So you will want to start OSBN when you are seeing 5 frames of brood in an 8 frame box.
If you have 6 or more frames of brood you will likely have to move a brood frame up into the new box.

I would move up the frame of brood with the least amount of brood on it and also the outermost frame beside it into the middle of the new box. (So frames 1 and 2, OR on the other side frames 7 and 8, into the middle of the new box.) Having the 2 frames together in the new box helps to encourage the bees to stay with the brood and help keep it a bit warmer.

With smaller boxes, like a 4 frame Nuc, I would move only the outmost frame up to the middle of the new box. Then check it within a week.


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## sparkyApis

Hi Matt, this is pretty much OT but I was wondering what the finish is that you have used on the woodwork in your long hives and in the video above? Looks good whatever it is.
Selwyn.


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## MattDavey

I use a couple of coats of Decking Oil, then a couple of coats of a external clear Varnish.


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## MattDavey

To those who have tried OSBN this year, how have your results been?
Would love to hear how you have gone with doing this method.


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## VanCityJD

I just employed OSBN with two nucs I picked up on May 16th. Both hives have since exploded - brood in 8/10 frames and displayed signs of late swarming (or so I feared). Looking forward to seeing the changes/initial results in two weeks. Thank you for sharing and the detailed explanation!
#Rookie


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## MattDavey

Here is my latest video on OSBN. Started just at the right time. A great example of what to do.


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## userfriendlytoo

I plan on using the OSBN procedure this Spring and I believe that this will help me when I make 2 NUCS around the 9th of April. I plan on doing the first step 3 weeks before I pickup my new queens, so if they are not ready to add the next batch of frames after two weeks, I would do it when making up the nucs. The frames removed could be the 2 brood frames for each nuc, or the stores frame (honey/pollen/bee bread). This would also yield additional drawn comb which will help the nuc buildup faster. I read a booklet from the Welsh beekeepers association and attaching it. They do a similar procedure, but without cutting the foundation, just add the undrawn frames. If you skip to page 14 they have color illustrations showing where to place the frames.


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## MattDavey

@userfriendlytoo
If you are removing brood frames and bees you are doing a Split, just by another name.

The whole point of OSBN is to have a Swarm Prevention method WITHOUT doing a split.

Where I am, the hives need all the workforce they can get. Reducing the workforce at this crucial time of the season will reduce any honey crop.


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## Kevinf

@MattDavey Matt, I have been to your website where I see you have a long Lang. Can OSBN be applied to a horizontal hive and, if so, how? I assume it would simply be a matter of placing an OSBN frame on one side of the broodnest and empty drawn comb on the other side. I have not read all the responses in this long thread so apologize if this has been addressed earlier.

Thanks,
Kevin


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## MattDavey

Yes Kevin, in fact I first started doing OSBN on the Long Lang.

I was experimenting with a 2 Queen hive and had merged 2 Nucs with a vertical Queen Excluder between them. One side had capped honey on the outer frame, the other side had a small amount of brood on the outer frame.

The first side with the outer frame of honey did not expand sideways, until weeks later when they slowly ate through the honey.

Where the other side without the honey barrier went straight onto the empty frame beside it and filled it with brood and made new comb.

So in the Long Lang, you can either move the honey frames across or just remove the honey frame beside each side of the Brood Nest. (As long as they have a decent amount of honey).

You can then insert a new/empty frame on each outer edge of the Brood Nest.


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## gopherknoll

MattDavey said:


> To those who have tried OSBN this year, how have your results been?
> Would love to hear how you have gone with doing this method.


Hi, Matt. We started using your OSBN method 3 years ago - usually along with checkerboarding honey above the brood to eliminate a honey cap. 2021 was a great year for us, despite a late, hard freeze that prevented many of our usual nectar sources from blooming. The bees were healthy, overwintered well and made it through swarm season with only one small hive deciding to swarm. The bees produced 1500 lbs of honey from 11 hives - in addition to the 750-ish lbs of honey we left in the apiary for winter. Several of the hives produced 150 - 180 lbs of honey each.

Our unintentional experiment this year seems to prove it out yet again. We are in East Texas and start our OSBN at the first of February. We had 15 hives that overwintered with no losses. All was going as usual until March 17. That is about the start of our normal swarm season. We took care of the nine hives on the north side of our apiary as usual - just finding the upper limit of the brood nest and opening sides with cutouts - but ran out of time to take care of the six hives on the south side. When we went back a week later (April 1), four of the six on the south had swarm cells. They had been ignored for too long. 

The best part is that those on the north side that had been consistently treated with OSBN are showing no signs of swarm intent. They are full of bees and pulling white wax - thriving hives in the midst of a very nice spring nectar flow. We weigh our hives every week or so - and even this early in the year, they gained 248 lbs across the apiary in just the past 6 days. 

Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and so patiently answering our questions! Hope others will decide it is worth the effort to learn something different.


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## MattDavey

Thank you very much Gopherknoll.

It’s good to hear that OSBN is working well for you!

The details of the unintentional experiment is exactly the type of information I’m after.

Your feedback is very much appreciated.


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## userfriendlytoo

Here was one of the frames that I cut, I removed a 4" section and the gap was all on one side. The bees drew out that frame and have now filled most of it with honey. The three hives that I added a frame like that, none of them swarmed.


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## MattDavey

Thanks for posting your results!

Are there others who have details to share with their experiences of OSBN?


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