# How long do most newbies stay with beekeeping?



## catbackr (Jun 5, 2010)

I have watched more and more people who attend my, and others, introduction to beekeeping classes, fail and give up after a couple of years. They spend a lot of money on equipment and bees only to have them die the first winter. Maybe they try again, but a good portion of them give up. I'm wondering if there are any studies or surveys that tell us how many new ones give up? My experience is that this is especially bad with the folks whose first hive is a top bar and were led to believe this was the "natural" way and they didn't have to do anything.

Another thought is that the local beekeeping clubs, mine included, fail these newbies by giving them an intro class and saying "good luck" and abandon them to their own devices. Do any of your groups provide a mentoring program? If so, how does that work? This subject is on my mind as I've received several calls this week from former "students" telling me their bees are dead and asking why and what to do.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think many beekeepers are recruiters! They dont really tell it as it is, but tend to minimized the difficulties and the amount of knowledge necessary to "make it fly". People get caught up that have no idea the amount of commitment needed.

I have witnessed a similar set of statistics and behavior in the recruitment of participants in Radio controlled model airplane building and learning to fly. Some very harsh ego crunching experience is often part of the initiation there too. I tend to feel out the person to see if they have realistic expectations and some record of perseverance.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

Is bee keeping a business or a hobby?? Over 75% of all new businesses fail Over 80% of all hobbyist lose interest after the first few months/years. As a newbie I hope to be one of the 20% or maybe I can get one of the grand kids hooked in the mean time.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

catbackr said:


> I have watched more and more people who attend my, and others, introduction to beekeeping classes, fail and give up after a couple of years. They spend a lot of money on equipment and bees only to have them die the first winter. Maybe they try again, but a good portion of them give up.


Sadly......... but that's why I monitor Cragslist.........


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Everything in life is complicated. Beekeeping is more complicated than most things. I think a lot of people start out thinking the bees do all the work. Something like this Jay Smith story:

"I will tell a story and it is a true one. A number of years ago a man came to see me who was conductor on a passenger train. He had held that position for 25 years and had laid up some money. He said, "I think I have served the people long enough as I have worked hard as conductor. I have about decided to buy a little farm and about 500 colonies of bees and just take life easy and let the bees work for me. What do you think of it?" I replied, "As conductor you just think you've been working. Now if you want to know what work really is you get 500 colonies, do all the work yourself, then you will realize that as conductor you just thought you were working." He insisted there could not be much work caring for bees. All there was to it, you just put on the supers and when filled take them off and people would come running for the honey. He may have been reading an advertisement of a supply manufacturer that ran something like this, "Costs little to start. Practically all profit. No experience needed. Very little work," etc. What I am driving at is that most of us are like that conductor more or less and I hope less. "--Jay Smith, Better Queens

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#The Question of Mating Hives


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## catbackr (Jun 5, 2010)

Monitoring craigslist. LOL. I never thought of this up side!


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Many people get involve in new activities or ventures, without having a clear idea of how much time and effort they will need to put into it, what it takes to be successful, or whether it will give them the results they desire. Some people even spend 10s of thousands of dollars on a college education in a particular area, only to find that there is little or no market for what they have 'learned', or that the reality of the field is such that they don't like it or it will not bring the amount of income that they thought it would...and they end up doing something completely different.

It doesn't matter what it is- an "Art History" major, professional sports player, Amway distributor, lawyer, beekeeper, actor, whatever. Many more people start than finish, especially if/when they find that whatever it is takes a whole lot more "work" than they thought it would, and they don't believe that the results are/will be worth the effort that they have to put into it to be successful.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Ive stayed with it for well over fifty years.


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## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

It seems like most introductory beekeeping classes are not comprehensive enough. I have seen classes advertised that are one or two sessions and promise to prepare you for your first hive. Dealing with the new bees is a thankless job. People lack commitment, they latch onto ideas without seeing them in practice, and they question everything you say based on something they read online. It's tiring. Mentoring should only really happen after someone has taken an introductory course. So there is the catch 22. There is are reason that many trades have long apprenticeship programs, now days people don't want to invest the time it takes to learn something properly.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Trying to teach someone to be a _good_ beekeeper is like trying to teach someone how to play a musical instrument. Not just a simple few instructions will do. Sure, I could teach you how to strum a few chords and sing along, but to be _good_, It takes practice, a fair amount of dedication, & some sort of understanding of agriculture, a little biology, nutrition. Probably most of all, folks just need to think for themselves & learn to consider all factors within every situation. 
Before coming to the conclusion about the death of a colony, be sure you are identifying the _correct_ problem, or you'll be spinnig your wheels trying to correct the wrong problem.

But everyone has to start_ somewhere_. Those that are successful are always observant, always learning and a bit stubborn I think. 

If you look at why most people quit archery, I believe it was said 70% of folks finally quit after they develop target panic. If you know that fact when you first learn to shoot, you'll research the causes of target panic and avoid falling into that trap.

Same goes for beekeeping. Learn about the challenges, biology & agricultural end of beekeeping and you'll be well on your way to decent success. Avoid the traps that cause beginners the most frustration and expense. 

Don't just learn to how to recognise the symptom, don't just learn to treat the symptom, learn how to eliminate the cause.


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## Jerry T Indiana (Apr 7, 2014)

I cannot believe the timing of this thread. I researched for a couple of years before getting into beekeeping last spring. I truly feel I have a good strong basic understanding of beekeeping. 10 days ago 2 of my 3 hives died, and I got thinking and talking to a long time commercial beek. After that conversation and more thinking I have come to a different feeling about the hobbyist beekeeper. 
First let me say I have other hobbies but I have not and will not toss good money after bad and just sit back and watch it disappear in the winter. My other hobbies I can sell out and recoup most if not all of my costs. Beekeeping, as you know your bees die then you are buying more, your used equipment have little resale value. I will not be a person who buys packages year after year, that is the good money after bad. I now know I need to have enough hives to sustain winter losses with splits. I feel I failed to fully understand the true risk of winter losses, I also now understand it is like live stock and you have losses. With all of this said, I feel beekeeping is not a hobby, like many people think it is, or can be. Granted it can be, if you fully understand the risks, I guess gambling can be a hobby. I now feel guilty seeing these new members at a bee club with their head spinning about all of the terms and equipment, etc. Then knowing they most likely are assuming once they get the equipment, they can buy a couple of packages and be good to go for several years. They do not have a clue that they might be faced with another $250.00 ($125.00 per around here) the next spring for two more packages. No one wants to be Debbie downer, but I am starting to feel the clubs need to be frank and honest with those interested in being a beek. Lets face it most of the packages sellers paint a rosy picture, as they want the sales. Granted as a club, one does not want to discourage, but being brutally honest, will keep a lot of people from being discouraged in the end. On a personal note, where does that put me? I have ordered 4- 10 frame full hives, overwintered with local queens vs packages from California for this year. Those should split giving me 8 hives going into winter, plus if my current one makes it, and splits maybe 2 more for a total of 10. I have just made cards for swarm and hive removal, and even have into at the local 911. I am currently making several traps. IMHO self sustaining is the key, and the key that is not clearly passed on to the new so called hobbyist beeks.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

I really do not get much out of classes because I'm a one on one kind of personality when it comes to learning things or I just learn things the hard way. Experience is a hard but unforgettable teacher. 
I've never attended a Beekeepers meeting for this reason. I found the closest beekeeper in my proximity which happened to be my neighbor down the road. I built him tops, bottom boards, and frames in return for hands on knowledge from him. He paid for the supplies and I supplied the labor. I learned all the basics and a few little tricks that make a big difference in the scheme of things. We still help one another out to this day, ask how our bees are doing, and even trade queen cells. Is there competition between us? Sure. But it comes with good sportsmanship and respect of one another. It's been a blast and still is, and I also made a new friend. It's hard for me to get this kind of experience from a GROUP of people.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

In my observation "churn" is huge. Most newbees I encounter of the well-heeled hobbyist ilk are fully convinced that a "all-natural" approach provides miracle solutions to the vexing problems of modern beekeeping. Why they believe the miracle cures of the Carnival Barkers, Montebanks, and Faith Healers, I have no idea -- something in the water I guess.

The "mind-share" in California for the all-natural protocol is nearly universal -- and nearly universally fails.

The hardworking immigrants of the Central Valley don't take the "all-natural" approach, and each years several I run across graduate from side-line to full-time.

It classically Darwinian -- the world is selecting for success, and letting the idle rich spend their dollars on a high-cost failure.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

It is not the clubs responsible to gaurentee sucess, itis the beekeeper. The club is meant to link beekeepers local together and provide an arena for sharing And teaching. We have mentors. Its informal, at the first few members we ask for folks wanting mentor and to be me tored. They then link up outside of the [email protected]


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

>>No one wants to be Debbie downer, but I am starting to feel the clubs need to be frank and honest with those interested in being a beek.

The very first thing my neighbor told me is "if you're gonna have em' you're gonna lose em'. They're no different than cattle or any other livestock".


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Lauri said:


> Don't just learn to how to recognise the symptom, don't just learn to treat the symptom, learn how to eliminate the cause.


True Lauri, but IMO you (they,we) need to recognize you have a problem and how to treat it before you can learn how to eliminate the cause...


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

When I was a kid, I used to buy models and never quite complete them because they never came out looking like the box's cover art. It was really frustrating and I didn't have the patience. 

As an adult I started making furniture. With my new found maturity I approached it from a totally different perspective. I loved the craft. While I of course wanted the finished product to reflect my effort, it wasn't my sole motivation anymore.

I suspect a lot of new beekeeping hobbyist measure themselves in terms of the resulting honey output and lose sight of the best part of the endeavor - the fun of learning, experimenting, failing, winning, and gaining the wisdom no book or video could ever provide.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The very first thing my neighbor told me is "if you're gonna have em' you're gonna lose em'. They're no different than cattle or any other livestock".

I learned that when I had chickens and it translated well to bees... if you surround yourself with life you surround yourself with death because in the end they always balance out. But I prefer to be surrounded by life even if it includes death.


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

A new hobby beekeeper can have several hives and a years learning experiences for less money than a week at the beach. Both the beachgoer and the new beekeeper bears responsibility for how to spend his/her time -- reading, learning, experiencing, observing, trying things, planning, learning from others -- or sitting. Some folks really don't have enough money and/or time for either beach or bees, and I am sorry. I can/will help a little (about bees, not beach) if they are committed. I have found the beekeeper community(locally and here) to be marvelously generous with time and even resources when they see someone trying but struggling. I think this thread is a serious asking of "How can we better help newbees and potential newbees?" 

One way is to communicate that beekeeping is like most of life; we need to "Count well the cost" before getting bees-- just like getting dogs, or hamsters, or car, or house, or spouse. One question I ask potential beekeepers is whether this is the time they are ready to get bees (and I hope it is), or whether they should observe a buddies hive and attend meetings for a year and then decide if they are committed to spend the needed time and effort.


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

thanks, Michael Bush, for the reminder from Jay Smith that unrealistic expectations are not only a 21st century phenomenon.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

snl said:


> True Lauri, but IMO you (they,we) need to recognize you have a problem and how to treat it before you can learn how to eliminate the cause...


Not entirely true. 
By then, it may be too late.
Avoid/reduce the incidence of EFB or at least dependence on antibiotics and unsuitable genetics for your local climate with one good choice of timely requeening with quality genetics with good hybrid vigor. Get rid of any frames of comb that may have had unknown exposures and you are well on your way to eliminating a lot of potential problems before you have issues.
Not to mention you can't ignore the mites. No matter which route you choose to deal with them, you DO have to deal with them in some mannor.

That's what I'm talking about. Just my opinion of course, but I see those problems wiping folks out right and left, year after year.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I think beekeeping disproportionately attracts starry-eyed-Earth-lovers who think they can save Mother Earth by putting the bees in a box and giving them the occasional warm fuzzy hug. Then, reality smacks them square in the face their first Winter, and they decide it is not for them and they quietly exit the hobby.

JMHO


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

snl said:


> Sadly......... but that's why I monitor Cragslist.........


:thumbsup:

I have never hit on honey bee equipment, but still will look at Craigslist. I think some folks who give it up are embarrassed, and sit on their unused equipment for years.


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## umchuck (May 22, 2014)

Speaking as a newbie, I feel that if you are serious about the hobby you stay with it, how many peeps take up tennis and a couple years latter the racket is sitting in the closet, I got into this knowing about all the parasites and diseases that face the honey bees, had queen problems my first year and that just got me motivated to raise my own this year, hope this helps.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Andy Rooney was saying one day something to the effect that the less you understand about something, the simpler you think it is. You assume that people's jobs are simple because you simply don't understand the details of what they do. Your picture of it is simple because you're missing those details.

I remember a "for better or worse" cartoon where the wife is describing her day of fixing lunches, making breakfast, dropping off the kids, taking the dog to the vet, doing laundry, picking the kids up and taking them to soccer, bringing them home... then her husband asks, "what did you do the rest of the day?" Obviously he was not getting all the details that went into each of those things...

Beekeeping seems simple when you don't understand it. Then you try to learn it and it seems unnecessary complicated. This leads to people obsessing over things that don't matter to the bees. People get obsessed about what size box or what kind of hive and the bees thrive in any of them. The differences are minutia and the beginner has no context for how unimportant some things are and how important other things are, or the real significance of something. All of that can feel overwhelming.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

philip.devos said:


> I think some folks who give it up are embarrassed, and sit on their unused equipment for years.


I think that's true, that's why it ends up on CL rather than offered to members in the club they USED to belong.............


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## JDMoodie (Aug 30, 2014)

Interesting thread. 

Every hobby, and most other endeavors, are the same in this regard. I usually get into something right up to my ears with the expectation that it will require lots of work, lots of study and lots time. The biggest factor that determines how long I stick with it is typically interest. If something is too easy I lose interest and move on to something else. 

Bee keeping is not easy, requires lots of work, lots of study and lots of time and is quite likely something that can keep my interest for some time.... particularly if I can produce at least my own honey and beeswax as we eat a lot of honey and burn beewax candles. I have gone as far as gearing up for manufacturing my own frames, boxes and related wooden ware while sticking with a modified topbar/langstroth setup. I only have one hive overwintering right now but even at -38C (which is about -38F at that temperature) I can hear them doing their thing in the hive, that's pretty cool. I'm just working with thick wood rather than the thin typical hive bodies that are commercially available. More nucs on the way in the spring.

I think that most people want easy and are disillusioned when it is "all of a sudden" hard. Many hobbyists will sugar coat the aspects of their particular hobby as they wax poetic about the aspects that they enjoy and gloss over the tough stuff in the interest of retaining a listener or recruiting a fellow hobbyist. They often don't recognize the signs of a short timer in the making either.

Back to real work now.

Jeff.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

@ Jerry T; I do not believe my club paints a rose-colored picture to newbies. I have been at this since 2012, so I don't know more than I know. Clubs cannot be a cure-all for ignorance. Also the people who treat have a different experience from those who don't treat (myself included). There are risks in not treating, and in treating. Some have had bad experiences with some Georgia or other southern suppliers; I have not.

A couple years ago I ran into someone who was working at the state fair with me, who I regard as a good beek, who lost all 15 of his hives. 
Other folks lost 20% or less. 

I don't know what to say to newbies about the risk, except that there is risk and heartbreak involved in beekeeping, from stupid mistakes I have made, and from just the lay of the land.

That said, I think the newbie that gives it up after one season is better off than if he/she had not given it a spin.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

crofter said:


> People get caught up that have no idea the amount of commitment needed.
> 
> I have witnessed a similar set of statistics and behavior in the recruitment of participants in Radio controlled model airplane building and learning to fly. Some very harsh ego crunching experience is often part of the initiation there too. I tend to feel out the person to see if they have realistic expectations and some record of perseverance.


I had to laugh, and totally agree, with your comparison to RC flying.....been there, done that. I think that one need a more than their fair share of stubbornness and a strong will to achieve their goal(s) in either of these "hobbies". I'm here to say that I'm a stubborn (fill in the blank).....want to see my collection of broken props? 

Several of the responses thus far have made some great points as to the cause, or the fact that many are misled into what beekeeping is all about. 

The time commitment is one of the major issues that surprised me. Not so much the 'need' to check on them, but the 'want' to check on them. It has become an obsession or addiction for me.....and I love it.....so far. 

I actually started just a year ago.....bought my first woodware in Feb......and the livestock arrived in April last spring. I even harvested some honey last summer....woohoo! This winter dealt me a 50% loss (so far) when I, sort of, expected maybe a 25% loss.....?

My stubbornness has kicked in and I right there with Jerry in Indiana with more nucs ordered and going for 10+ colonies this summer. This IS, by God, going to work.


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## JDMoodie (Aug 30, 2014)

Tim KS said:


> This IS, by God, going to work.


That's what is missing in the people that do not stick with it... the drive to darn well (I used stronger words but they got asterisked out, my bad) make it work.

Jeff.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I have been trying to teach beekeeping off and on a long time. Some of the people I have mentored long ago passed me in numbers and knowledge. Some won't listen or can't and fail again and again and cannot understand why. Kind of like my investing methods in the stock market. Bees take an investment in time that most will not consistently allocate. Then those @#$!%%! Mites! People don't see them so they aren't impressed with the need to keep them controlled. Right now a whole generation has been miseducated that they can save the EARF with lollypops and good feelings and have learned little about pain and perseverance. But it will all shake out. A portion will be beekeepers and they will learn that neither the bees or the EARF needs saved and will just pursue beekeeping as an art or for profit. I just know it continues to be exciting and challenging for me and I wish all the beginners the best.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Just a few bullets,

* We have 148 who signed up for our 9 week beekeeping class. This is a record but we have over a hundred every year. We have about 300 members in the club.

* last year I was insecure being a mentor, so I teamed up with another more experienced beekeeper. We had seven mentees. 2 went through the practicum to get certified.

* this year, I have 3 mentees. Only 1 showed up for equipment day. When I went through my hives just before winter came back (is this Indian winter?) I invited them to join me. Only 1 responded. She was out of town. 

I think a lot of people think, "bees are cool", "lets get some honey", "think about the garden" , "save the bees and the world". A few weeks into the process, "this is too expensive". When they lose their first bees, "this is impossible".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

This newbee stuck with it since 1976. That'll help boost the average.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

TalonRedding said:


> Experience is a hard but unforgettable teacher.


Only if you learn the right lesson taught by experience. Some of us have to re-experience the same thing just in case we didn't get it the first time.


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

My mentor has pounded it into my head that I will lose bees, most likely all of them the first couple of years.

He tells people this because too many of them think that it is easy,Buy bees,put in a box,life is wonderful.


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## B52EW (Jun 3, 2013)

MB, I can relate to your observation. As a new keeper a few years ago I looked at my bees as pets...when things went bad a felt helpless and disheartened. Once I changed my frame of mind to view the bees more like livestock I enjoyed them more and had better success. When I first had chickens I had to go through the same evolution in perspective...I had to come to peace with the fact that I either had to keep the chickens in lock-up or let them roam like chickens will and experience the occasional loss to predators. I think both the bees and chickens are happier since I let nature run its course as much as possible.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I predicted that there would be more folks dissing us for throwing cold water on would be enthusiasts. I have been accused of being negative but I think there is a big difference between realistic appraisal and negativism. I just dont like to see people setting themselves up for grief by not getting a clear view of realistic expectations. Much good comes of enthusiasm but unbridled enthusiasm delivers more grief than anything else.

Probably the media hype has attracted a fairly high percentage of people whose inclination is to embrace idealistic and utopian visions. Another great grabber of human emotions besides bees is horses. I am sure M.B. could tell lots of stories about blind love and disappointment connected with this. I used to shoe horses and have seen a lot of cases of founder in horses from simply being overfed and underworked. The starryeyed owners killed them with kindness. They simply did not know the basics of giving them what they need.

These human traits must have survival payoffs somehow though, as this seems to be part of what makes us so adaptable. Sometimes though it seems like a hard way to learn.


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## catbackr (Jun 5, 2010)

Dsegest, thanks for the reply and the link to your clubs website. I think offering a mentoring program like the one your club has is a good first step.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

A bee club I joined for a while ran a regular beginner course, it was conducted over several weeks, entirely in a classroom, they did not even look at any real bees. At the end the people emerged confident, ready they thought, for success, and some of them came my way wanting bees. Probably around 1/2 of them I actually talked out of getting bees I could tell it just wasn't going to work. They could get them somewhere else but I didn't take money from fools.

I also noticed that despite the "success" of this class in terms of good numbers attending every time, the club roll never actually grew. I had to leave the club because I started getting phone calls from large numbers of people who had done the class, got some bees, and now had problems, I couldn't attend meetings any more cos I got literally mobbed every time it was just no fun. So the theoretical way stuff was being done was all wrong. I actually started my own course which had almost no paperwork but we actually worked bees, by the time people finished they could confidently approach and open a hive, manipulate brood, requeen, identify and remedy problems, stuff like that. It was all done in the field, not a classroom. Best I'm aware, everybody who did that course is still successfully keeping bees.

So my opinion the reason for high nubee drop off in bees is the difference between the idea of beekeeping and the reality, plus that all pursuits have a high drop off rate for the same reason.

As to cost, I don't think beekeeping is that expensive of a hobby, try golf, fishing, or whatever, beekeeping is cheap. It's perception. When someone pays their annual golf subscription they know the money is gone. But people buying a hive are not expecting to lose it but if they do lose it they suffer bitter disappointment and a feeling of loss, so see it as expensive.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I read somewhere recently (I think on Beesource) that 25% or less of the folks who start beekeeping are still doing it after two years.

.


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## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> A bee club I joined for a while ran a regular beginner course, it was conducted over several weeks, entirely in a classroom, they did not even look at any real bees. At the end the people emerged confident, ready they thought, for success, and some of them came my way wanting bees. Probably around 1/2 of them I actually talked out of getting bees I could tell it just wasn't going to work. They could get them somewhere else but I didn't take money from fools.
> 
> I also noticed that despite the "success" of this class in terms of good numbers attending every time, the club roll never actually grew. I had to leave the club because I started getting phone calls from large numbers of people who had done the class, got some bees, and now had problems, I couldn't attend meetings any more cos I got literally mobbed every time it was just no fun. So the theoretical way stuff was being done was all wrong. I actually started my own course which had almost no paperwork but we actually worked bees, by the time people finished they could confidently approach and open a hive, manipulate brood, requeen, identify and remedy problems, stuff like that. It was all done in the field, not a classroom. Best I'm aware, everybody who did that course is still successfully keeping bees.
> 
> So my opinion the reason for high nubee drop off in bees is the difference between the idea of beekeeping and the reality, plus that all pursuits have a high drop off rate for the same reason.


I agree with a lot of this in that no amount of classes can prepare you for the real thing. I sat through two years of classroom work before opening a hive. The first year I didn't feel ready so I waited. When I actually dumped the package into the box I was completely overwhelmed, and I was the one stalking the instructor when things got crazy my first year. But the point is that I did dump the package into the box, no one was looking over my shoulder. 

Trying to train someone in a hive that does not have a basic knowledge can be frustrating. Really, some people are difficult no matter how you try to teach them. I won't teach adults anymore, my first attempt was a total drain and time waister. I would rather teach my students who would never get to experience small scale agriculture otherwise. With them, all my teaching is hands on. 

I also agree that as far as hobbies go beekeeping is cheap. I know people who are very happy to loose half of their bees and replace them with packages every year, and use honey sales to re-coop. Many people are happy to sort of make it at something. Where the time commitment comes in is when you are not satisfied unless you excel.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

How long do most newbies stay with beekeeping? Well I am still a newbee after working them for 35 years!


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

We require new members to take a beekeeping 101 class and work an apiary for four hours before they can order bees through us. We also encourage them seek out a mentor on their own from a list of our senior members. 

We give them a realistic view of what happens your first year and warn them that their bees probably won't live past the first season unless they continue their education through mentorship, coming to meetings and actively participating in the club functions and classes.
We have some people leave after they hear this. It's like they think they're going to get goldfish that you only have to feed daily and never do anything else. 

We have others that become obsessed, come to every meeting and become sideliners.


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## Spark (Feb 24, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Andy Rooney was saying one day something to the effect that the less you understand about something, the simpler you think it is. You assume that people's jobs are simple because you simply don't understand the details of what they do. Your picture of it is simple because you're missing those details.
> 
> I remember a "for better or worse" cartoon where the wife is describing her day of fixing lunches, making breakfast, dropping off the kids, taking the dog to the vet, doing laundry, picking the kids up and taking them to soccer, bringing them home... then her husband asks, "what did you do the rest of the day?" Obviously he was not getting all the details that went into each of those things...
> 
> Beekeeping seems simple when you don't understand it. Then you try to learn it and it seems unnecessary complicated. This leads to people obsessing over things that don't matter to the bees. People get obsessed about what size box or what kind of hive and the bees thrive in any of them. The differences are minutia and the beginner has no context for how unimportant some things are and how important other things are, or the real significance of something. All of that can feel overwhelming.


So what you are saying is simplification is the key. As a person who makes his living with his hands I can say matter of factly that simplification is the key. Trying to overcomplicate things especially with tiny insects even scientists haven't entirely figured out is part of the problem. There are a lot of posters here on Beesource who seeem to be extremely pre-occupied overcomplicating every process including posting in threads.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Anything is simple if you know what you're doing.

Until then, it can be complicated.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Lauri said:


> Anything is simple if you know what you're doing.
> 
> Until then, it can be complicated.


:applause: G


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

I think 1-2 years is the limit for most people. The main reasons people quit are lack of perseverance, too much physical work, too hot, too much worrying, and not being comfortable with on-the-job learning. 

I have been team-teaching a beginner beekeeper class, and one thing I've tried to stress is the importance of perseverance and that you have to keep bees for several years to learn to keep bees. You need the book knowledge to learn how to keep bees, but the book knowledge is just the foundation to actually learn to keep the bees. What I have suggested is that learning to keep bees is sort of like learning to roller skate -- you can talk about it all you want, but you only learn to do it by doing it, with full expectation that falling down is part of the process and nothing to be embarrassed about. That is a life lesson I wish I'd figured out when I was 16, but it took longer for me to get it. 

The people who stick with it, in my experience, seem to have the following traits or practices:

1. Enjoy learning by doing, experimenting, and not worrying too much. It seems like people with a background in agriculture, skilled trades, and medicine most consistently fit this description. 

2. Have a social network involved of some sort, including a combination of family being involved in beekeeping activities, mentors, and/or a bee club. Husband-wife beekeeping teams seem to be some of the most successful. 

3. Keep enough hives that they can absorb losses, make splits, and not need to buy bees. It doesn't seem like many beekeepers stick with it if they only have 2 hives (although there are exceptions). Most people either quit or get more than two hives. I don't necessarily recommend starting with more than 2, but people who stick with it usually go from 2 to 4 or more within a couple of years. Swarm catchers/trappers also fit the bill. 

4. Physically able to do hard work and take the heat. I think 8 frame mediums or horizontal hives would be a good idea for a lot of people. 

For me, the heat is the only aspect of beekeeping that makes me think about quitting sometimes. A lot of the beekeepers I know who have stuck with it have told me they had moments in July/August working bees and nearly having a heat stroke and thinking it was time to quit. I tell newbees that getting a full ventilated suit is worth the money, because you can be virtually naked underneath. If you live up North, I don't want your winters, but I really don't want August in Oklahoma either. 

Our bee club, after a long time of talking about it, has gotten a formal mentor program started where newbees are paired with mentors. Last year was the first year to have a real/formal mentor program. I don't have any real statistics, but the generally impression I'm getting is that it is increasing the retention rate.


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## roykessler (Feb 18, 2015)

Beekeeping is easy and fun with little commitment. Not sure what you guys are getting at.

Roy


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## woodsy (Mar 3, 2013)

It is not easy being a newbie beekeeper.
I threatened to throw the towel in on it after losing both hives
early winter last year. But then i found out that buying southern package bees for northern climes was probably not the best approach to getting colonies through the winter here. 
Throw Varroa mites into the mix which i didn't treat for and it was probably a sure setup for disaster.
This winter the two colonies are local bees from overwintered nucs and seem to be doing well. One MAQs treatment in August , yup, caved in on treatment free for fear of more disasters.
Looked in on them yesterday . They were into the mountain camp sugar that i put on a month ago. Lots of bees in both hives.
Optimism is a good thing, experience is even better, not that I have much of that yet.
Perserverance ,money and knowledge seem to be the key ingredients for 
successful beekeeping


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

woodsy said:


> One MAQs treatment in August , yup, caved in on treatment free for fear of more disasters.


Don't feel bad. The people who benefit most from new beekeepers with treatment free ideals are the package producers. 



woodsy said:


> Perserverance ,money and knowledge seem to be the key ingredients for successful beekeeping


Well perserverance and knowledge anyway. Once those are acquired in sufficient measure not a lot of money is lost.


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## SilverBack (Dec 10, 2011)

Twenty-plus mentors on our club list for the past two years. None got a call. Can't push a rope.


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## IsedHooah (Jan 13, 2015)

roykessler said:


> Beekeeping is easy and fun with little commitment. Not sure what you guys are getting at.
> 
> Roy


:lpf: I would like to believe that there is an element of sarcasm here


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## roykessler (Feb 18, 2015)

IsedHooah said:


> :lpf: I would like to believe that there is an element of sarcasm here


 Actually I was being serious but I don't want to ruffle any feathers here. I think everyone has their own way of doing things. To me Beekeeping is easy with little commitment.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

A lot of good observations in this thread. My 2 cents....
A lack of goals usually isn't a good sign - If you don't expect or desire to get anything out of it you probably won't. But mostly it's just like other hobbies - a lot of the fun plays out about the time you complete the collection of paraphernalia. 

Seriously - only a few people are going to enjoy enteracting with stinging insects in 90 degree southern humidity. The surprising thing is that so many people even try it.


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## roykessler (Feb 18, 2015)

Its so hot here (Texas) I don't open any hives until late night when it's dark only. I have a good breathable suit but not during the day


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## roykessler (Feb 18, 2015)

Honestly thinking about this I would have to agree with people living in Northern states having a rough time getting something like this going. If you live in in the southern states it's much easier.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

roykessler said:


> Actually I was being serious but I don't want to ruffle any feathers here. I think everyone has their own way of doing things. To me Beekeeping is easy with little commitment.


Wouldn't worry, nobody going to get ruffled feathers, if you find beekeeping easy then that's your reality no dispute, fact is lot of people find beekeeping easy. 

The thread though is about newbees and if you met any you'd find it can be pretty confusing for them in these days of internet and information overload.


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Wouldn't worry, nobody going to get ruffled feathers, if you find beekeeping easy then that's your reality no dispute, fact is lot of people find beekeeping easy.
> 
> The thread though is about newbees and if you met any you'd find it can be pretty confusing for them in these days of internet and information overload.


 I almost gave up before I even started just because of the overload, Becoming a doctor sounded easy compared to a beekeeper.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

While relative newbees, we picked it up fast and are we're pretty active in the beekeeping community. Her background is medicine and adult education and mine is animal husbandry and process analysis.

Based on her observations teaching beginning beekeeping and hands on classes, I'd say NeilV is spot on. Often times, she can tell within a few hours if someone is suited or not to the hobby.

Too much time on the internet and on the wrong forums overloads newbees with incorrect and unnecessary information.

We're involved in a number of beekeeping organizations and community events. The unexpected benefit was being welcomed and assisted by the generations old beekeeping families in the area. Something the folks looking for mentors could pick up on - when you start out giving, the experienced people are more inclined to give back.

We expanded to 40 hives our 2nd year through splits, swarm catches and removals. My wife still takes losses a bit hard but I just look at hives as a collection of resources. It was a good winter with about 5% loss. Those boxes and drawn comb will be used up in the next few weeks with splits or swarm catches.

Hard work and heat? We built and maintained a few houses together. We are used to playing hard in the heat, I spent about a decade volunteering for Jeep Jamboree guiding participants over granite boulders in temps near 100 (the guides mostly walk...). We're getting older so we decided on 8 frame and Top Bar Hives from the start.

As far as beekeeping being "easier with less commitment" .. it's not commitment so much as input. There are high input and low input beekeepers = you can't manage 40 hives like you would 2.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

biggraham610 said:


> :applause: G


I used to play trombone and a few other musical instruments. The hardest thing about playing music is making it look easy.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

kingd said:


> I almost gave up before I even started just because of the overload, Becoming a doctor sounded easy compared to a beekeeper.


I tend to agree. At its core beekeeping isnt terribly complicated. If they are hungry feed em, if they are full super em, monitor parasites late in the summer and treat as needed and try to find a site where they can stay warm in the winter and have at least some summer shade. Make a few spring splits and accept the fact that sometimes bees just die. I often read on here about folks doing frequent "full inspections" and I am left wondering just what it is they are inspecting for, as a quick look at a frame in the middle of the brood nest should give you about all the information you need. In short, you can make beekeeping about as simple or as complicated as you like.


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## IsedHooah (Jan 13, 2015)

roykessler said:


> Honestly thinking about this I would have to agree with people living in Northern states having a rough time getting something like this going. If you live in in the southern states it's much easier.


I would concur with this statement. There are difficulties in beekeeping no matter where you are, but worrying about harsh long winters is one that Northern Beeks have to pay a little more attention too then those in the south (normally). Overall, I personally believe the hobby is what you make of it, if I enjoy doing it I really don't consider it work. My opinion on new comers is simply that they either dive in head first and find out it's more than then wanted to handle, or they tip toe around and slowly grow to a level where they are comfortable. It's normally the ladder that sticks it out the longest or makes it a lifetime hobby :thumbsup: This has just been my observation in my area.


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## buzzleblast (Jan 16, 2014)

In my experience of being a noob, too many folks get caught up in the "trivia" aspect of beekeeping, content to fascinate the neophytes with endless streams of facts and figures. While they are indeed fascinating, that won't help when you see bees crawling around on the ground in front of your hive. Thankfully I found a smaller subgroup early on, who have likewise gravitated away from the "Hey! Look at what I know" crowd. 
Overall, I think we tend to be our own worst enemy when it comes to only extolling the virtues of what amounts to tiny, temperamental herds of livestock, that need management like their larger 4 legged counterparts. For instance the lowly varroa mite. I never learned about them in any meetings or face to face conversations with any beekeepers. These same beekeepers will account for hive loss with tales of evil chemicals, global warming, urban creep, hybrid cars, power lines, alien abduction, etc. but will not for a minute consider PMS as a causative factor. How are the noobs supposed to figure it out? 
At the recent Alabama Beekeepers Symposium, a speaker asked for a show of hands, as to who DID NOT believe that varroa mites were a major issue in the state. Way more than half of the over 800 people raised their hands!


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## Snowhitsky (Mar 1, 2014)

Enthusiasm and staying power are an infrequent combination in any hobby that requires anything beyond minimum effort. I've learned to invest the absolute minimum of effort and time in coaching new members of any hobby until they've demonstrated more than a superficial interest. My time is limited and I won't spend any on timewasters.

One example is a cousin's boyfriend who asked me to teach him all about beekeeping during a lunch last summer. I invited him over for a noon inspection the next day. Predictably, he turned up two hours late in shorts despite my instructions to bring long-sleeved clothes. As my bees wait for no man by the time he arrived I'd finished and was peeling off sweat soaked clothes and suit as it was 40ºC in the shade. He took one look at me and decided he'd try something involving less discomfort. Don't know why because I loved every minute of it and that ice-cold beer I treated myself to tasted like no other.


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## woodsy (Mar 3, 2013)

As a newbie who was considering keeping bees 2 years ago the thought of having to be somewhat of a Veterinarian also had never crossed my mind.
Now that really complicated things for me.


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## PeterK2003 (Jun 10, 2014)

Our bee club(http://www.thebeeyard.org/) tries to get mentors to everyone that needs one.

I had/have a mentor who helped me start out last summer. I wasn't too much of a pain since my dad had bees I mostly knew what I was doing but it was very nice to know i had someone to ask questions if need be. 

I think for people who are really clueless this is an immense help.


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## SalsaMom (Jan 15, 2015)

I'm such a noob I don't even have bees yet. I've been interested in beekeeping for a while now - maybe b/c my grandfather kept them. He's 91 now and I talked with him about it. He said something that stuck in my mind and it was this: "for some reason I just always liked fooling with them". He just liked the bees. I think I have some of that. Bees are just interesting to me.

For me - I have a horse that I like to ride. I have had horses for about 10+ years now. I didn't grow up with them - so I will always lack that "something" that life time equestrians have. Experience has been my teacher - at times a hard one (as is the ground when I've hit it). I think I have the "stick to it-ness" needed for beekeeping. If I can handle getting stomped, bit, thrown and the general hard work and heavy lifting that is keeping horses on my own place - then I THINK that will translate over to bees.
If you ride horses you will come off. If I keep bees it seems I will sometimes lose them - though I hope I can minimize that!

I am signed up for my local newbie beek class next month.
I think I am about at the 'information overload' point too. I am going to go into the class and hopefully get some good info and get some answers to my questions that are good for my local area.
We go into some hives the last day and I have a jacket and veil and am excited about that. I am at the point where I need to get into some hives and see if I really want to go on through with this.

This thread has been very interesting for me to read!


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

I prescribe to the quote "Hard work is fun, when improvement is evident." I started keeping bees in 1977 with two packages from Sears. I'm still loving it and find the harder I work the more fun I have.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Re information overload, I find it a constant frustration when on Beesource that someone will ask a question. There will be a bunch of answers given and some of them will be the perfect solution, or steps to take that will solve the issue. But there will also be a whole bunch of other info given, and another 20 different ways to achieve the same thing. Eventually the person who asked the question expresses obvious bewilderment and says OK I will do xxx. And 1/2 the time it will not be the best course of action, but how would he know.

I started beekeeping in pre internet times. I was a small boy and did not at first know any other beekeepers, my family were not into it either, but what I had was a book called Beekeeping in New Zealand. I made my hive in the school woodwork shop from instructions in the book. The book had been written by some commercial beekeepers and matter of factly ran through what to do each season, there were no arguments or different opinions. I was fascinated by bees and read the book avidly, followed what it said, and was very successful. Over the 3 to 4 years until I was old enough to leave school & get a job with a commercial beekeeper, I did splits, bought queens and requeened, went from one hive to 12 and sold a lot of honey which was my only source of finance, this was all done without a mentor, just using the book.

If I was born and started now, I'd be getting my info from the net, and very much suspect my initiation to beekeeping would be less successful due to not knowing which opinion / belief / dogma to subscribe to. Do I treat mites, or let the bees deal with it. Should I not feed sugar. Etc.....


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> I started beekeeping in pre internet times..


...and pre-varroa times!


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## Snowhitsky (Mar 1, 2014)

Made a good point there Oldtimer. To boil it down: location, location, location

When I started I was a bit bewildered by the differences between what was going on in my hives and what I was reading/seeing on the internet. Turns out I wasn't doing anything wrong it was just a different climate, different flora, different bees. Once I worked that out, I was able to concentrate on my bees with a realistic approach which made all the difference.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes that was a big part of it, hard to lose a hive back then,

But I feel that for a newbee it's not varroa itself is the problem, but the multiplicity of advice, theory, and dogma, around varroa. A person just doesn't know what to do.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Snowhitsky said:


> Turns out I wasn't doing anything wrong it was just a different climate, different flora, different bees. Once I worked that out, I was able to concentrate on my bees with a realistic approach which made all the difference.


Very much agree with that.


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## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

SalsaMom said:


> For me - I have a horse that I like to ride. I have had horses for about 10+ years now. I didn't grow up with them - so I will always lack that "something" that life time equestrians have. Experience has been my teacher - at times a hard one (as is the ground when I've hit it). I think I have the "stick to it-ness" needed for beekeeping. If I can handle getting stomped, bit, thrown and the general hard work and heavy lifting that is keeping horses on my own place - then I THINK that will translate over to bees.
> If you ride horses you will come off. If I keep bees it seems I will sometimes lose them - though I hope I can minimize that!


Yes growing up with horses helped me. When I almost killed my horse (colic) at the age of 12, I learned very quick to be responsible. Something I read in The Hive and the Honey Bee stayed with me and basically its that bees are like other livestock you have to learn how to handle them. I am still learning how to handle them but I think handling them well, like horses prevents a lot of problems and make solving problems a lot easier.

I always take your advise over other peoples Oldtimer. After a while you learn certain names should have gold stars after them.


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## dsquared (Mar 6, 2006)

Internet information overload is a big problem. When I started 30 years ago I read every beekeeping book I could get my hands on. Richard Taylor became my go-to guy. I also attended every conference I could. One of my fondest memories was attending an EAS conference in MD where Carl Killion gave a class on comb honey. Imagine my surprise when Richard Taylor (author of the New Comb Honey book) attended the class. Their approaches were drastically different but you could tell Dr. Taylor was there to learn. It showed me that the best bee keepers are lifetime students. My other point is there is no substitute for filtered, expert advice. For every solid informative post on the net, there are half a dozen posts where someone simply parrots something they have seen on line. Quality print books on beekeeping are a wise investment.


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## kanikka (Feb 16, 2015)

I've had a few of my honey buyers ask me to help them get started in beekeeping. My reply is , after you have purchased "Beekeeping in Western Canada" editor John Gruszka (I live in Alberta) and read it twice, come back to me and we will get started. Every one of them have gotten back and said something like, "Wow I had no idea it was so much work...I think I will just buy honey...." It's a good book and saves me a lot of wasted breath.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

canoemaker said:


> I started keeping bees in 1977 with two packages from Sears.



I remember when Sears sold bees and bee equipment! I was in high school and had just started keeping bees. I built all my own wooden ware and caught swarms as my source of bees. I would pore over the Sears catalog and dream about how nice the pre-made boxes must be, and about running those fancy bees with the known genetics, because, if it was in a catalog, it must be better than what I was scraping together. Now I long to catch swarms for their survivor genetics and look askance at package bees. Ha!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

dsquared said:


> Internet information overload is a big problem. When I started 30 years ago I read every beekeeping book I could get my hands on. Richard Taylor became my go-to guy. I also attended every conference I could. One of my fondest memories was attending an EAS conference in MD where Carl Killion gave a class on comb honey. Imagine my surprise when Richard Taylor (author of the New Comb Honey book) attended the class. Their approaches were drastically different but you could tell Dr. Taylor was there to learn. It showed me that the best bee keepers are lifetime students. My other point is there is no substitute for filtered, expert advice. For every solid informative post on the net, there are half a dozen posts where someone simply parrots something they have seen on line. *Quality print books on beekeeping are a wise investment*.


Dear DS.

I see you have not posted very often. Since you have posted one of the best answers on BS that is rarely mentioned I would request that you continue to share your knowledge here. Would be a great benefit to all. Anyone who can unwrap and pass on the knowledge about bees gleaned by either RT or Mr. Killion is more than welcome here.

I personally look forward to learning more from you! 

Thanks, H"$"ALL


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A lot of them last just long enough to be convinced by the "treaters" it's impossible to keep bees without dumping a lot of chemicals in the hive and they give up before they start.


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## WLeeH (Jan 16, 2015)

I think for a lot of people they expect instant gratification and instant successful results when attempting something. If these expectations aren't met within their expected time frame, well they often times abandon whatever it is they were doing. Unfortunately with bees, this doesn't always happen and for any number of reasons their hives don't make it in year 1, and since most starters only have 1 or 2 hives they have nothing left come spring, and didn't order packages early enough, or can't find nucs, and so just abandon the practice.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Michael Bush said:


> A lot of them last just long enough to be convinced by the "treaters" it's impossible to keep bees without dumping a lot of chemicals in the hive and they give up before they start.


As a Treater who admires anyone who is able to keep bees not only alive but "kickin butt" without the addition of any foreign object into the hives are you able to give us a reasonable estimate as to how much time is usurped in the "manipulations" needed to keep them alive during a years period? I doubt that your whole program is based on genetics to keep all the "Mr. Malos" at bay so what time is involved in "jailing" the queens and other secret ways of getting this done?"


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Well, Michael, and a boatload of them also get persuaded by the non-treating propaganda that doing anything that isn't "all-natural" to their bees is tantamount to dumping DDT in their hives, with a side order of GMO neonics thrown in. (_I _know that GMO and neonics are not the same thing, but some folks don't.)

Don't get me wrong, I know there are longterm, successful TF beekeepers out there. (And that you are one of them.) But they seem to be the exception that proves the rule. I would love to be one of them, but I can see that isn't possible at this time, in my location, with my bees and my skill level. And I simply see no point in letting my bees die from varroa - and the viruses they vector - just to make my bones in TF beekeeping.

Too many underinformed people get into beekeeeping here to "save the bees" and then for whatever reason they persuade themselves they are doing a noble thing by not checking for varroa (or most other ailments.) And then they wonder why their bees die. 

I am the librarian for my club right now and one of my jobs is chasing down overdue books. In doing so, I have listened to many re-iterations of the same tale: got bees, didn't "know" (more likely didn't _want_ to know) they had to monitor or treat for mites, their bees kind of limped along, had crawlers and peculiar looking bees (DVW, probably), took some honey from the few frames drawn and filled the first year (because they thought the bees would be fine), failed to feed to winter weight and their colonies were dead by Christmas. Some of them did this _every year for several years _before becoming discouraged and quitting. (I have to admire their stick-to-itiveness, if nothing else.) But they all seeemed to believe that it would be an evil thing to monitor and treat their one-or-two colony apiary because they apparently believe they are somehow creating "survivor bees". All they seemed to me to be to doing was buying fresh bees to replace their dead bees, every year. 

Enj.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I believe the biggest problem with the beginning beekeepers is a complete lack of knowledge about what they are really getting into. For a hobbyist with one or two hives it is not inexpensive, it is way more work than expected, and the average U.S. resident is so fearful of death that to see dead bees all over is more than they can handle. They have dreams of bees that live forever, every hive produces 100lbs of honey that bottles and sells itself, and they get rich from it the first summer. Once the nubie finds out the real truth, what never appears in books or classes, the dream is shattered and reality strikes. I had to find it out the hard way but for me, the failures only stoked the fires to succeed.


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

Margot1d said:


> Yes growing up with horses helped me. When I almost killed my horse (colic) at the age of 12, I learned very quick to be responsible. Something I read in The Hive and the Honey Bee stayed with me and basically its that bees are like other livestock you have to learn how to handle them. .


That reminds me of a strong message I took to heart from Ted Hooper's book Guide to Bees and Honey (from the U.K.) Paraphrasing, he considered bee "owners" as anti-social, negligent, and irresponsible toward their bees. Whereas bee "keepers" understood the responsibility and stewardship required to keep their bees healthy and thriving, and did what needed to be done when it needed to be done.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

dudelt said:


> Once the nubie finds out the real truth, what never appears in books or classes, the dream is shattered and reality strikes. I had to find it out the hard way but for me, *the failures only stoked the fires to succeed*.



May I ask? Did you at all play competitive sports in high school or college?


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Honey-4-All said:


> May I ask? Did you at all play competitive sports in high school or college?


Of course! To this day I still love all the sports metaphors. For years Babe Ruth was the home run king, but he was also the strike out king and so on. Losing half of my hives the first year (only one of two) and both (I only had two) the second year gave me a great way to look at beekeeping. I had to look back at what did I do wrong, what could be improved on, and what was unavoidable. I had to learn to be better and plan better. I now realize that losing 10% over the winter might be unavoidable but everything above that is probably my fault (in most years). No one becomes great without failing.


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## Mommyofthree (Aug 23, 2014)

catbackr said:


> I have watched more and more people who attend my, and others, introduction to beekeeping classes, fail and give up after a couple of years. They spend a lot of money on equipment and bees only to have them die the first winter. Maybe they try again, but a good portion of them give up. I'm wondering if there are any studies or surveys that tell us how many new ones give up? My experience is that this is especially bad with the folks whose first hive is a top bar and were led to believe this was the "natural" way and they didn't have to do anything.
> 
> Another thought is that the local beekeeping clubs, mine included, fail these newbies by giving them an intro class and saying "good luck" and abandon them to their own devices. Do any of your groups provide a mentoring program? If so, how does that work? This subject is on my mind as I've received several calls this week from former "students" telling me their bees are dead and asking why and what to do.


My thoughts- 
I think with starting and trying new things or hobbies there is not only a learning curve but you are trying out to see if you enjoy doing the hobby. 

My neighbors saw my AWESOME poultry and tried it for a year- one winter was enough for them to call quits. I have thought about quitting the poultry many times during the past 6 years- yes they are cute but walking into a death scene from yet another **** or fox attack or dog. Or watching a confounding condition and not knowing how to help or a snow event that lead to a broken duck leg and nursing that lucky duck all winter...

Another one of my many hobbies is stained glass - I took a class and invested in the tools and find that yes it is fun but challenging and time consuming. While I am still making Christmas gifts for others I know several of my classmates for beginning stained glass who also invested in the supplies decided it was too much of a challenge and too much of their time and thus quit the hobby. 

I agree with others that we recruit people to our hobbies- I have seen this first hand as many of my hobbies touch others and they decide to try it. It has even happened with bees as my excited boy convinced his friend and dad to take up bee keeping. Now in this case the dad has prior knowledge as his dad was a bee keeper when he was a boy but I have watched others get excited with my excitement. Now I always add in my mistakes in my story but... My general excitement even with the set backs keep people thinking about it. I am giving myself a grace period as to if I continue with this hobby- this next season will be my 2nd year and we will see. For me my hobby has to have benefits to me, I need to not be detrimental to what ever animal I am caring for and I still need to have time to be here for my kids and family. And I suppose if I am being honest it can't be too expensive of a hobby (this one keeps getting to me as I seem to find the expensive start up costs to the hobby)


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## OkieRob (Dec 31, 2014)

Well I tried to contact the local bee club in e-mails. I have not heard back in over a month. That right there is one reason for me not to expect any help from the local club so I will probably not waste my time with it.

I know a couple of people local that has or had bees, neither one will be of any help. One is mister negative and the other is never around.

I'll probably be asking lots of questions here. I have the internet, books to help me. 

I grow a big garden every year and am expanding into fruit trees. 14 peach trees, 4 pear, 6 apple, 8 plum, 3 nectarine as of today. I also plan to graft more peach and apple this year. I have 250 acres here mostly pasture and some hardwood timber. I also have wild and cultivated blackberries and some blueberry plants, muscadine vines and wild grapes in areas.

I will be planting flowers also to try and have something available for the bees all summer.

I will be doing my best to provide everything I can for the bees I will be receiving in april.

Yes I have spent some money to get started. But I have lots of nephews and while they might not be interested now, a day may come that they will be. As with everything I have purchased over the years, I cannot take it with me when I'm gone. I try to have quality things to leave behind that may help others. If I fail or my interest go in other directions, I will have storage room for everything to be used by someone else. I know someone down the road will be grateful and find a use for everything .


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Best thing I did was to go let a commercial work me in his outyards. I got years worth of beekeeping advice in a few days. Him calling me a hippie, new age beekeeper was good for a chuckle but as an aspiring non treater my take on it was my not knowing how to treat, when to treat, and which treatment was for what disease would be doing myself a big disservice. If you're not ready for the challenge of beekeeping you're going to wash out. I had some major absconding issues and starve outs my first year. And then again my second year. My third year that same commercial had me come show him how to use OA. One has to learn to become a beekeeper and that's not easy even with a good mentor. And just for the record I get along with treaters much better than the TF crowd, one groups zealotry gets trumped by the other groups experience.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OkieRob said:


> Well I tried to contact the local bee club in e-mails. I have not heard back in over a month. That right there is one reason for me not to expect any help from the local club so I will probably not waste my time with it.


Likely a wrong conclusion. Clubs are run by volunteers. Sometimes not always 100% organised your email for whatever reason went unanswered.

But the club will be about the people you meet and relationships formed. Don't seek out the ones who talk a lot, figure out who is getting great results from their bees and see if you can befriend them, and if they really do well just do what they do, or tell you to do, imitate success. But do not be a pest.



OkieRob said:


> I know a couple of people local that has or had bees, neither one will be of any help. One is mister negative and the other is never around.


 There may be a reason why you see him as Mr Negative. People come to me wanting bees and sometimes it is obvious they are not going to make it work so I talk them out of it. To them, I am Mr Negative but in fact I have done both them, and myself a favour, the favour to me is I don't get all the phone calls, harassment, and attempts to make me go to their house, that would have happened as their hive went from bad to worse to dead.
So figure out why he is Mr Negative and if it's saying anything about you.


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## Mommyofthree (Aug 23, 2014)

OkieRob said:


> Well I tried to contact the local bee club in e-mails. I have not heard back in over a month. That right there is one reason for me not to expect any help from the local club so I will probably not waste my time with it.
> 
> I know a couple of people local that has or had bees, neither one will be of any help. One is mister negative and the other is never around.
> 
> ...


Hopefully you can still go to your local bee club meetings. Remember volunteers are trying to be helpful and sometimes things get lost or neglected. I have found our local club to be very helpful- I am hoping that this year I can get on the list to get a mentor (I feel like I need it). If not folks here are great and the books are also good sources of info.


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## OkieRob (Dec 31, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Likely a wrong conclusion. Clubs are run by volunteers. Sometimes not always 100% organised your email for whatever reason went unanswered.
> 
> But the club will be about the people you meet and relationships formed. Don't seek out the ones who talk a lot, figure out who is getting great results from their bees and see if you can befriend them, and if they really do well just do what they do, or tell you to do, imitate success. But do not be a pest.
> 
> ...


It is a 100 mile drive round tip to the local club. 

It's pretty much everything , not just bees.I like the guy and we get along, I just know how it is with him. His brother in law gave him that label, I just agreed after I noticed he was mr negative. still a good guy.


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## bbruff22 (Dec 24, 2013)

This is a really strong thread. 

I started last year, and it was a good first year. I sure made mistakes, but I learned a lot and got some amazing honey as well.

I started the winter with three heavy, active hives. I'm pretty sure I've got two dead-outs right now, and one strong hive remaining. I've already arranged for a couple of new packages in April, and I will be doing this again this year regardless. But, if I can't eventually be successful enough to be self-sustaining, then it's probably not something I'll want to do long term. The disappointment of finding a hive with bees head into the comb, dead of starvation, in a hive with frames of honey is incredible.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

$5 worth of White sugar on the top bars and that starved colony sitting on a hundred pounds of honey won't happen. That and a little wrap to slow down rapid temperature transitions.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

rwurster said:


> Best thing I did was to go let a commercial work me in his outyards. I got years worth of beekeeping advice in a few days.


I may come to regret not doing that this year, as it was offered to me. But, I had no way of knowing that circumstances would be such that I would have the time available to do it.

I started with 2 hives, took no honey the first year and both came through the winter OK. Since then, I've been expanding but have had a lot of failures. But, I got some education first, and some solid advice. Most of my failures have been due to my own mistakes, some due to circumstance. Book-learning is a good beginning, but no substitute for the knowledge gained by doing...as long as you have the wherewithall to recognize that you *have* made mistakes and correct them. Some people simply don't have the capacity to recognize that they *have* made mistakes, and others are incapable of formulating a plan to correct the mistakes.

Some people go into it without recognizing the amount of work and knowledge required to be successful, and find that they are unwilling to devote the time and labor needed...as they may be in other areas. It's been a long time since "Ole Slew Foot" (Johnny Horton, 1961) was recorded "...saved up my money, bought me some bees, started makin' honey, way up in the trees..."


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## roykessler (Feb 18, 2015)

If someone new was starting out and focused on swarm traps and catching them first instead of buying them it might not be such a big deal when they up and fly away.

You learn as you go but not out any money buying the little critters. Also I like my local bees.


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## Cub Creek Bees (Feb 16, 2015)

Yeah and some folks say he looks a lot like me! 


_hat tip to BBK_


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Cub Creek Bees said:


> Yeah and some folks say he looks a lot like me!
> 
> 
> _hat tip to BBK_


LOL! I wasn't sure if anyone would know that one. JH was a favorite of mine when I was a kid. Recently managed to find one of his albums on CD (Johnny Horton's Greatest Hits). Some of his stuff almost brings tears to my eyes (You Fought All The Way, Springtime In Alaska, All For The Love Of A Girl).


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>are you able to give us a reasonable estimate as to how much time is usurped in the "manipulations" needed to keep them alive during a years period?

Well, I don't recommend it, but from 2010 to 2013 I did absolutely nothing. Never even opened a hive. In fact I was in another country...


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >are you able to give us a reasonable estimate as to how much time is usurped in the "manipulations" needed to keep them alive during a years period?
> 
> Well, I don't recommend it, but from 2010 to 2013 I did absolutely nothing. Never even opened a hive. In fact I was in another country...


So...How much honey did you have when you got back?


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## pink bee man (Feb 24, 2015)

catbackr said:


> I have watched more and more people who attend my, and others, introduction to beekeeping classes, fail and give up after a couple of years. They spend a lot of money on equipment and bees only to have them die the first winter. Maybe they try again, but a good portion of them give up. I'm wondering if there are any studies or surveys that tell us how many new ones give up? My experience is that this is especially bad with the folks whose first hive is a top bar and were led to believe this was the "natural" way and they didn't have to do anything.
> 
> Another thought is that the local beekeeping clubs, mine included, fail these newbies by giving them an intro class and saying "good luck" and abandon them to their own devices. Do any of your groups provide a mentoring program? If so, how does that work? This subject is on my mind as I've received several calls this week from former "students" telling me their bees are dead and asking why and what to do.


HI I helped as many new bees I could my 2 year beekeeping ,my first year was krazy lost #1 to wax mouths had hive beatles in other one ,keep with it,then met someone on a farm toure and hit it off. We been working together ever since. joined a bee club did some mentoring then helped a few keep with it. The people I start I let them know we will try fix most things that happen . Pink Bee Man CYA


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So...How much honey did you have when you got back?

The hives were heavy... but I was busy moving and didn't have time to harvest anything.


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## dsquared (Mar 6, 2006)

This is a good thread that anyone considering taking up beekeeping should read. It got me thinking. I took up beekeeping in my mid-30s. I had a few extra bucks to spend by then and was fortunate to have several older beekeepers who were willing to give advice. I won't say mentor-- it wasn't. Have a question? They'd answer, but it better not be some off the wall question you didn't try to research yourself. They didn't have patience for foolishness. I learned lots helping them out, watching how they did things and listening to them discuss (and sometimes argue) about bees and beekeeping. The Internet is a 2-edged sword. Young people seem to want all the answers given to them. When I was young I didn't ask questions because I didn't want people to know how much I didn't know. Instead I poured over every bee book I could find. I still do on occasion. If I was to be charged with getting new beekeepers off on the right foot, I'd ban them from reading anything honeybee on the net until they had read and completely digested Diane Sammataro's Beekeepers Handbook. Why not Michael Bush's website? Too much info for the new beekeeper-- that comes later. The information overload is one of the biggest obstacles for new beekeepers. This site is excellent-- but even this site has lots of postings from those who are parroting something they read rather than something they have tested.


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## whix (Feb 3, 2002)

Michael Bush said:


> A lot of them last just long enough to be convinced by the "treaters" it's impossible to keep bees without dumping a lot of chemicals in the hive and they give up before they start.


Keeping bees without treating is like living to 100.
None of my relatives did, probably not yours.


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## roykessler (Feb 18, 2015)

I don't treat my bees and never have. Personal preference I'm sure.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Keeping bees without treating is like living to 100. None of my relatives did, probably not yours.

Yet I have met thousands of treatment free beekeepers, and I have not met thousands of 100 year old people... so, no, I don't buy that comparison at all. And my Grandpa was 99 when he died... but that's irrelevant to the comparison.


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## Mommyofthree (Aug 23, 2014)

whix said:


> Keeping bees without treating is like living to 100.
> None of my relatives did, probably not yours.


Hmm Well that argument means I should be treatment free as 3 of my Great Grandparents lived to be 100 or really close to it and I still have 3 grandparents going strong- one is 92 one is 82 and one is 79... 

(and I have not made up my mind to be treatment free or not - I guess so far I am treatmentfree (one WHOLE season-  That I am very proud of) But I had in my head if needed I would cross the treatment bridge if needed....


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## Banemorth (Feb 28, 2015)

I'm starting this year and plan to stick around for a long, long time. I suppose only time will tell though. Just made my introduction post a couple days ago  

As far as treatment goes I plan on treating with ApiVar every spring as soon as I can get in the hive and following up with MAQS around July / August. Oxalic acid again later if required before winter.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> Yet I have met thousands of treatment free beekeepers.


I have heard about these thousands.

From time to time people on Beesource ask around and express frustration cos they want to buy treatment free bees but can't find any, and end up having to buy weak, commercial, chemical bees.

I'm curious.

With all these thousands of successful treatment free beekeepers and their (I'm sure) many thousands of thriving treatment free hives, it has always seemed strange to me, that nobody who wants to buy treatment free bees can ever find one.


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## Cub Creek Bees (Feb 16, 2015)

For that matter, newbees have problems getting ANY bees... myself included. :scratch:


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Oldtimer said:


> I have heard about these thousands.
> 
> From time to time people on Beesource ask around and express frustration cos they want to buy treatment free bees but can't find any, and end up having to buy weak, commercial, chemical bees.
> 
> ...



Nothing against MR. Bush or his TF associates. More power to them. The answer as to why is quite apparent...... Keeping TF bees is possible but keeping the numbers required to sell off any excess is beyond the capabilities of this sub genre especially if we are talking about high numbers of excess. Its darn tough enough to keep them rolling in the treatment department to keep the numbers up. I can't imagine doing so on the other side with all the time that has to bee involved in the "secret" side of beekeeping.


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## xphoney (Nov 7, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> I have heard about these thousands.
> 
> From time to time people on Beesource ask around and express frustration cos they want to buy treatment free bees but can't find any, and end up having to buy weak, commercial, chemical bees.
> 
> ...


Your ignoring the simple fact that treatment free does not work well in a large commercial setting. As such you will not find the volume that you find with treated operations. There are lots of treatment free operations out there but they tend to be small and thus sell out quickly. From my observations, treatment free tends to be more labor intensive, for those who are the most successful.

If you don't look you will not usually find.

Andrew


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I know there are treatment free beekeepers in my area who are successful. I tried it my first two years with no success. Since treating, the survival rate has improved significantly. I would not let the loss of the hives the first couple of years deter me from trying to be successful.

I had so many mites in the hives that on hot days the mites were bearding on the front of the hive!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

dudelt said:


> I had so many mites in the hives that on* hot days* the mites were bearding on the front of the hive!



I'd suppose that hot days in Seattle are about are rare as treatment free billionaire beekeepers in Seattle... One and the same.


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