# Poor quality components - how much tolerance to allow?



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> I'm tired of these suppliers selling marginal stuff.

You could always _make your own woodenware_ - complete plans are in the Build-It-Yourself area.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

it wasn't by chance designed that way for an IPM board is it? Either way I wouldn't worry about it too much, I make my own and sometimes have gaps bigger than that. it's easy to do when you make them fast the bees will fill it no problem.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I agree. I understand that wood shrinks and swell and can twist, etc. I get that it may not be perfect. But some of the woodenware that I've bought isn't even close and that annoys me, especially when it's a small quantity. I sent back three inner covers (before I started building my own) once. One had a broken side because they cut it with a knot in it and the knot just let go. Another was warped so bad that it popped the joints open. The third was fine but I sent it back out of principle. I'm usually pretty tolerant but when the rep on the phone asked me if I could just glue them back together I decided to get a refund. I won't mention the supplier because I usually had good luck with them. As a beekeeper I don't expect perfection and I truly don't expect anything "free" when I have a problem (I really dislike when people have a problem and expect more than just an apology but that's another story) but sometimes I wonder if the manufacturers balance between quantity and quality is way out out of line. 

To directly answer the question, anything out of tolerance that makes you or your bees work harder for the same end result is the start of something not tolerable.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

The budget boxes from Mann Lake aren't perfect. My homemade boxes aren't perfect. But Mann Lake's deeps are cheaper than 1x12" lumber. So... 

I haven't purchased much bee equipment from anywhere other than Mann Lake and I have typically always purchased the "budget" boxes. They are not perfect (like I said), but I've yet to have any that are unusable.
They seem to flatten out once they're on a hive, I don't notice any major propolis pockets when working them, so my assumption is that they sat down.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Do you think the weight from a heavy hive will flatten it?

>ants and other insects can enter.

They can enter through the front door too, it's the bee's job to chase them out.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I only buy budget or commercial boxes when I am cutting them up to make deeper feeding or spacing rims. Otherwise, I buy the select or whatever they claim there best quality lumber is. 

In this case, the bottom boards didn't come from Mann Lake. Mann Lake isn't perfect but seem to have some of the better quality control.

In this case, the bottom boards that I purchased have a Dado cut into the sides to accept the bottom boards. The end pieces are 3/4" pieces nailed to the bottom board to complete the rim. The Dado is too wide so the bottom settles down too low so when the 3/4 end piece is below the level of the sides. 

Yes, I could and have made my own boxes before. I would make everything if I had the time.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I probably put together 20 supers from kits that I bought on-line during the first couple of years when I started. All of them went together perfectly. The third spring I ordered another 10 kits, put them together, painted them, and stored them in the shed. Later in the spring when the flow really got going, I took a couple of supers out of the shed and tried to put them on my existing hives. They didn't fit! I was astounded because at this point I thought I was a pro. I mean I had assembled 30 supers in three years; surely that made me an expert. No matter how much I fiddled around with them, I just couldn't get the sides to line up and there was a 1/2" to 2/4" gap at the corners; a _horizontal_ gap. :doh: 

Not only was I a newby beekeeper, I was a newby wood worker. Somehow I had managed to put together the first 20 supers square, without the use of a square. I put the last set of 10 together without a square as well. I didn't even think of it. I didn't need one before, why would I use one now? Luckily 2 of the supers were salvageable as they had a very slight gap that the bees could easily patch.


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

orthoman said:


> Am I being too critical and are my expectations too high for what I expect in terms of quality in the product? Should I send them back?


Call them. If its who we expect it is they'll make you right. I went a little crazy during the "black friday" sales on some budget boxes and had a few blow out. Called them and they shipped me spare sets to make me whole. Never had any issues with customer service. "budget" should only refer to quality of the wood and should have nothing to do with dimensions or subpar design. Saying that, I wont be buying the "budget" boxes in the future. Well worth the extra $'s to go with commercial-grade. Boxes and frames arent worth the time & $ to build yourself. Its the accessories, bottoms and lids where a tablesaw quickly pays for itself.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I stacked supers on this swarm that moved into a pile of stored old boxes and it produced a crop for several years before dieing out.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

orthoman said:


> up to 1/8 inch space between the hive body and the back side of the bottom board.
> Am I being too critical and are my expectations too high


You are being way too critical. An "up to 1/8 inch space" is nothing.
Hive boxes ain't pianos.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I would think these big operations would have these dimension dialed in and quality control set up to frequently check their production lines.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Wood shrinks and swells dramatically. If you make things too tight the wood will split itself. Ever see a hardwood floor where the builder ignored the big bold warning to leave a 3/8 gap around all fixed points?

I actually welcome some funk in the bottom plane of the box. The propolis build up sticks the boxes together nicely. Boxes that don't provide that "glue surface" will slide off each other at the most inopportune times.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

I'm with DirtyLittleSecret in "budget" should only refer to the quality of the wood; inaccurate cuts/dimensions/assembly should be sold as "seconds."


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

How much is too much? If a bee can get through it, then it is too much. The first time you try to stop persistent robbing, you'll discover why.

JMO

Rusty


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## Sky (Jul 7, 2015)

Othoman - as others have said, the 1/8th gap in that location is not that a big of deal for the bees - they will manage that gap as needed... or not....... but the gap is not what this is about.... 
It's all about tolerances...... as in, what will you tolerate?
Are you being too critical? not really .... 
If you are cranking out "stuff" for yourself, then you can be as sloppy as you are willing to accept - 1/8 difference across the surface or two boards that butt up to each other is a pretty noticeable difference - if you were making this yourself - whatever - shim it or plane it, ignore it, accept it, move on, next time measure better - but if you are PAYING for one that is pre-built, then you should have higher expectations - at least that the parts are cut to the right thickness....I don't think that is overly critical. You would expect that after a few of these have been turned out the manufacturer would have the tolerances a little more dialed in - maybe not perfect, but better than 1/8 shortage on a part only measuring 3/4 high (15%) 
now, is it worth the hassle to return? That's your call - its about what you will accept for your dollar- It struck a nerve, so at very minimum, drop the vendor a note (and a pic if you can) and let them know (nicely) that you are having an issue - this is a defect in workmanship (cutting and measuring) and most vendors will respond by trying to make you happy - if it doesn't go well strike them from your list of suppliers, chalk it up as a lesson learned.

Sky


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Any warping of bottom boards goes away for me when I put 100 pounds of bees and honey on top of them. Top covers are a different story however of all the equipment I've ever made the biggest gaps that I've ever had was maybe 1/8" and my boxes come out pretty even and square. I do use plenty of assembly jigs and that helps keep boxes square and edges even. 1/8" isnt something that Ive ever worried about.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

Just put together some commercial grade deep boxes from Mann lake. Marveled at the quality of the wood, maybe 1 knot in ten boxes. Thought they'd messed up and sent me select. 

But then I found 2 that the box joints were spaced incorrectly, and one side wasn't predrilled. I never find it till I've got glue dripping everywhere. Few minutes with a razor knife gets me a warped box assembled. 

Second time I've had this inconvenience. Maybe I'll remember next order...


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

The old-timer that was my 1st beekeeping mentor, told me that the box joint has a bit of flex, if unglued. It was first settled on/adopted to allow a less than perfect, or "aged" deep to seek the level of the box or floor below. Propolis is flexible. Dont glue just nail, and the bees will do the rest. They were developed pre power tool era, remember. Those box joints were hand chiselled, quite likely less perfect than machine cut boxes.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Bdfarmer555 said:


> Second time I've had this inconvenience. Maybe I'll remember next order...


That is so bizarre to me. How many of their commercial boxes have you assembled?

The reason I ask is that I have put together somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 of their budget boxes (which are supposed to be lower quality than their commercials) and other than them being just a little bit off, I have never had any major issues. One had a kind of loose knot that I just glued in place and make sure I painted well. I know my roughly 100 is a small sample size... but they have all been drilled. All been within reason... maybe a tight finger here or there, but nothing some light tapping into place couldn't fix.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

jadebees said:


> They were developed pre power tool era, remember. Those box joints were hand chiselled, quite likely less perfect than machine cut boxes.


While _electric_ "power tools" may be a relatively recent innovation, mechanically driven saws have been in common use for several centuries. Earlier mills and manufacturing facilities were often driven by hydro-power (waterwheels), but steam powered machinery could be situated away from rivers. Individual saws and other machinery were often driven by overhead line shafts with belting to each machine. The line shaft was powered by a steam engine in a central location, perhaps driving multiple line shafts. 








photo credit

Of course, some woodenware likely was made by hand, just as today some is made by hand, but factory made woodenware has been around for a long time. Its hard to see how "movable frame" style beekeeping could have grown popular without some kind of factory producing the bulk of those frames.

This Bee Culture article on beekeeping history mentions one Thomas Underhill being "on the road" in the 1850s selling his improved frames.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Rader, you have a good point about older millworks. I have a different opinion, as I doubt most people had access to their own home mill. Even a mill owner would be loathe to side line his investment to 1 product. Possibly a sawmill, but not so likely locked into a niche product. 150 or more years ago, a talented carpenter could make a good living doing hand woodwork. Much industry was on a smaller basis. That was the status quo at that time. No one knits socks much, but it was a common cottage industry 150 years ago for sale outside the home. The yarn? Made in a mill, very often. The broad cutomer base drew the big investment, then ,and now.


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

orthoman said:


> Just received some bottom boards...
> 
> 
> Am I being too critical and are my expectations too high


I thinks so. Gotta remember these are low price, mass produced parts, made from cheap lumber. Could be sloppy, also the lumber can easily shrink or expand, or warp that 1/8" in between the time it's made, and you receive it. 1/8"? I'd cut them some slack for sure. 

Hire a woodworker to make you some furniture grade boxes if you want perfection  'course then you probably won't like the price


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I found an interesting ad in a section of an 1893 edition of Gleanings in Bee Culture. Google Book link Look for the heading titled "_Second Hand Machinery_ (left side of page 947)

Listed is a a variety of bee-box making equipment, including a 20HP steam engine + boiler for $375, a 24" wide sanding machine for $150, a double head tenoning machine "especially arranged for making combined miter and rabbet joints of the Simplicity hive", (but could also be re-purposed for making sash and window screen frames), price is $50.

There is a variety of saws and other similar wood working equipment, and the seller also offers to provide the line shafting to make it all work together with the steam engine. This was "used" machinery so it likely wasn't exactly new technology even in 1893.

I wonder if there were customer complaints of 1/8" gaps in 'adjacent' hive woodenware sections in the 1890s?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

No, but they sure we're glad to get those steam retrofits....because they were otherwise treadle powered.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

We make all of our own bottom boards.
Why?
Because all of the solid bottom boards sold through ALL of the vendors ARE JUNK!
I cannot understand why most wooden ware mfgs make migratory lids but nobody it seems sells migratory bottom boards.
Here is a picture of a HEAVY DUTY bottom board that you can drive your bee truck over:










When I taught beeschool, I used to hold one of these up in the air, drop it on the floor and jump up and down, stomping as hard as I could all over the board with absolutely no damage.
Try that with a flimsy reversible bottom board. Try running over it with your truck.
We are talking about the foundation for your hive.
These cost about $4.25 each to make and last me about 20 years before replacement.
We cut all of the parts, we prime all of the parts, then we assemble them on a jig, painting all of the mating surfaces as they are nailed together.
Then 2 more coats of paint.
They are impervious from moisture and all of the nasty glop and slop that gathers , that accelerates rot on poorly made and poorly designed bottom boards.


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## Munson (Mar 16, 2014)

Complain and complain loudly please. Please share the pictures and names of the company. None of the woodware grades describe what you see in yours. I have a few hundred frames and other woodware I need this winter (I'm doubling my apiary) and there are only a few places I will get them from. I would rather not have poor quality woodware so would appreciate honest appraisals from my piers. In turn, if I find exceptionally shoddy merchandise I will also provide warning.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Rader , that is very interesting, seeing the post of old ads. I think it was a good investment, especially if you were the poor guy making that stuff by hand. I wouldn't want to do it ! In 1898 dollars that was many years average wages though for a carpenter.Thanks for looking that up.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

"A little putty, little paint, we can make it what it ain't"
Run a bead of clear silicone and cover with a piece of kitchen plastic wrap and set a box on it. The plastic wrap will keep the box from sticking until the silicone dries to form a gasket.

I bought a pretty good load of budget deeps from Mann lake a couple years ago. Had a _small_ percentage that the box joints didn't line up .Seemed to be a totally different run. Couldn't beat them into place. But for the excellent price I got and the fact I could easily use those few irregular parts to make mating nucs, I didn't contact the company for replacement.

They have always_ bent over backwards_ to fix any mistake or flawed orders I have placed.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm with Lauri on this one. I used to order quite a bit of woodenware from Mann Lake and they always replaced any items that weren't machined properly. Most of the time I just told them to add a credit to my account and to send out any replacement parts on a future order and they were always glad to do so. Last year I started ordering all my hive bodies and supers from Shastina. They are also a great company to do business with.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

A 1/8" wobble, such as the OP complains about, is *nothing*. Get out your box knife and fix it. 

My prediction -- if Mann Lake is swamped with a bunch of prissy hobbyists demanding credit for a 1/8th inch misfit, they are going to double their prices -- and rightly so.


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## capitalbeesupply (Jul 28, 2013)

orthoman said:


> Just received some bottom boards from a major supplier of hive components that I purchased during the "Black Friday" sales.
> 
> The bottom boards that I purchased have up to 1/8 inch space between the hive body and the back side of the bottom board. I suppose the bees will eventually fill this with propolis but in the mean time, ants and other insects can enter.
> 
> ...


One issue is that many companies will not take the time to condition lumber prior to milling it. Construction grades of lumber, which is what most everyone uses from the lumber mills is dried down to the industry standard of 13-15% moisture (and in our climate this is the equilibrium moisture in the winter, much lower in the summer). To be millable and stable so that things fit, don't twist, shrink, etc. it needs to be under 10% prior to milling in our opinion. In our case we moisture test each bunk and sticker stack the bunks in our facilities from the mill. It takes about 2 weeks to get to our moisture target under 10% where we will even consider milling it. This takes lots of conditioned storage space, takes time, effort, etc given the amount of lumber we run. Most don't bother. On a 1x8 from 13 to 10% you loose 1/8", on a 1x12 you loose almost 1/4". Planks with lots of stress in them will become more evident as the moisture drops. Not sure who you bought them from but it is possible that they used offcut material to make bottom board rails which may not have been great in dimension to start with if they didn't bother to re-rip them down which is what I suspect they did (they ran too wet of lumber and made hive bodies, held the offcuts for making miscellaneous stuff. Some of the offcuts shrunk more than others and either they didn't re-rip them or the operator was daydreaming feeding stock through and didn't notice that some were so narrow that they didn't even hit the blade going through (and the downstream operations didn't notice it either)....
Rich


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

There where alot of places making woodenware in Wisconsin in the past. G.B.Lewis was in Watertown(which is why Dadant has a branch there), and August Lutz was in Boyd. An unnamed outfit was south of Hartford, untill the dam washed out. 

The best deeps we ever purchased where from Killian in Hopland Ca. They can strapped with two sticks on EACH side in the box joint. They have to be perfect to do that. To the best of my knowledge they are no longer in business.

Does Mann Lake even make their own woodenware? They changed bottom bar thickness shortly after Dadant did, which makes me suspicious.

Crazy Roland


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Producing a high quality product is the ideal, but it gets in the way of the toilet paper mentality. Let me explain. Years ago, there was a manufacturer who made the best garbage bags in the business. They sold them in every color of the rainbow, every thickness from 2 mil to 10 mil, every size from small to big enough to fit a truck. If you wanted a garbage bag, they had it. Another manufacturer came along using modern equipment and making only one color garbage bag and only a limited number of sizes and soon they had taken 30% of the larger manufacturers sales. The big manufacturer had conniptions and set out to find out what was wrong. They asked the stores selling their products and were told "we don't know why, but your stuff just doesn't sell". Then they asked customers and they found the problem. People buy garbage bags to throw garbage in and then toss it in the dump. They don't care what color it is, they don't care about anything else except price. The new guy was a few cents per bag cheaper. The same is true of many products we use each day including toilet paper, paper towels, and other disposable items. We buy them as commodities to be used and discarded therefore what sells is almost entirely dictated by price. Yes, you can make some arguments about single ply toilet paper vs multi-ply, but it does not take away the basic paradigm, price determines what sells.

With that said, I make almost all of my own equipment and am always satisfied with the quality. Several years ago, I got some cypress hives made by Stone mfg that were superb in every way. If I could still get equipment like that for the price, I would purchase instead of making my own.


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

duct tape is your friend.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

> On a 1x8 from 13 to 10% you loose 1/8", on a 1x12 you loose almost 1/4".


Assuming your working white pine, that kind of movement (over a 3% change in moisture) is double (or more) of anything I have ever experienced or calculated for even a completely flatsawn board.

What your describing sounds more like the movement you would see from dead green fiber saturation point to 10-12% air dry


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Just for the S&Gs of it - back to the original question, "how much tolerance to allow?" It's now been determined an 1/8" +/- out of spec is within some folk's tolerance level, what level of pain will you endure before it becomes unacceptable? Anybody good with an inch gap, how about 3/4, maybe half inch?


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Just to be clear, as the OP -- I was* not * talking about Mann Lake.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

This is likely your answer. It seems many here know that lumber expands/contracts tangentially and radially but don't feel the mfg has any responsibility to dry the lumber to acceptable standards prior to milling. That should be expected in my opinion. I'm not saying the lumber needs to be kiln dried but am saying it needs to at least air dry to reasonable moisture content prior to milling and a lot of these issues would be eliminated.

I'm also guessing that mfgs do know they put out a small percentage of bad product to use the stock they receive and base the acceptability of this on feedback from customers........you don't complain, they figure they are ok.

I've also wondered if some mfgs use the super sales on Black Friday etc to get rid of marginal product; however, that is only speculation on my part.



capitalbeesupply said:


> One issue is that many companies will not take the time to condition lumber prior to milling it. Construction grades of lumber, which is what most everyone uses from the lumber mills is dried down to the industry standard of 13-15% moisture (and in our climate this is the equilibrium moisture in the winter, much lower in the summer). To be millable and stable so that things fit, don't twist, shrink, etc. it needs to be under 10% prior to milling in our opinion. In our case we moisture test each bunk and sticker stack the bunks in our facilities from the mill. It takes about 2 weeks to get to our moisture target under 10% where we will even consider milling it. This takes lots of conditioned storage space, takes time, effort, etc given the amount of lumber we run. Most don't bother. On a 1x8 from 13 to 10% you loose 1/8", on a 1x12 you loose almost 1/4". Planks with lots of stress in them will become more evident as the moisture drops. Not sure who you bought them from but it is possible that they used offcut material to make bottom board rails which may not have been great in dimension to start with if they didn't bother to re-rip them down which is what I suspect they did (they ran too wet of lumber and made hive bodies, held the offcuts for making miscellaneous stuff. Some of the offcuts shrunk more than others and either they didn't re-rip them or the operator was daydreaming feeding stock through and didn't notice that some were so narrow that they didn't even hit the blade going through (and the downstream operations didn't notice it either)....
> Rich


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

BeeAttitudes said:


> This is likely your answer. It seems many here know that lumber expands/contracts tangentially and radially but don't feel the mfg has any responsibility to dry the lumber to acceptable standards prior to milling. That should be expected in my opinion. I'm not saying the lumber needs to be kiln dried but am saying it needs to at least air dry to reasonable moisture content prior to milling and a lot of these issues would be eliminated..


Dried to what though? Milling parts too dry can cause trouble too.The equilibrium moisture content in Phoenix in June is 4.6. In Los Angeles it's 14.8. 
The industry standard of 13-15 stated above is quite good if you ship parts across the country.

As far as tolerance goes, I guarantee you your own house has much looser tolerancees than that 1/8" that some think matters in a bee box.


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