# PF-120 / PF-106 foundation



## Barry

Received my order of PF120's (Mann Lake) today. Having used the Dadant plastic 4.9 in trials and it not working so well, I can see why this design works so well for many. Don't like plastic frames, so I'm cutting off all the frames and putting the foundation into my wooden frames. Works just fine.


















Used a piece of 3/4" plywood to set the frame on and run through the table saw leaving the bottom bar attached.









Fits nicely into a wooden frame.









Completed frame.


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## Solomon Parker

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I still have five sheets of the Dadant stuff. Did not even get part of one done correctly on multiple tries. You can have it if you want it.


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## Barry

*Re: PH120 foundation*

No, I have my box of it that I'll keep for my collection of failed foundations. Have some aluminum foundation as well. But to their credit, they were the first to spend time and money on developing a plastic SC foundation. :applause:


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## Jpoindexter

*Re: PH120 foundation*

What do you not like about the plastic frames?
-Jay


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## Barry

*Re: PH120 foundation*

The plastic part of them.  I don't like the feel, I don't like the look, and I don't like the flexibility. I'm a wood guy.


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## David LaFerney

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I've deployed about 200 pf125s this year - the first time I've really tried plastic frames. I definately prefer wooden frames, but probably not enough to go to that much trouble. 

Shame it isn't available in sheets.


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## Vance G

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I have seen examples of all the deficiencies that people speak of, but about the same proportion of other foundations are misdrawn and I can clean off the plastic and start over! Everyone feel free to ship me all your hated plastic foundation. It must be drawn on a good flow and it needs to be spaced tightly. I run it thru a table saw and draw 11 frames . Throwing in one frame at a time, except in the middle of the brood next, does result in problems most of the time.


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## David LaFerney

*Re: PH120 foundation*

For ME plastic foundation is the only way to go - plastic frames, not so much. However, they are quite convenient - and that is worth a lot.


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## lazy shooter

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Does anyone sell plastic foundation in a wood frame?


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## cerezha

*Re: PH120 foundation*



Barry said:


> Received my order of PF120's (Mann Lake) today.


 Wow!
Very ambitious project. Very nice job. How many frames? Sergey


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## Barry

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I ordered 30 frames (mediums), enough for one hive. After I see how this goes, I'll either order a lot more or keep using my wax foundation.


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## cdevier

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I have been using Mann Lake PF120 for three years and it has worked great. I always install 10 fames in a box. After the bees draw the comb in a honey super, I usually remove one frame and space out the remaining 9 to make the comb deeper and eaiser to remove the caps


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## oblib

*Re: PH120 foundation*

dang it Barry, I was jusr thinking about my order for next year (everal hundred pf 120's) and how I like the foundation but hate all the ladder comb due to the top bar being thinner. Now I will probably spend hours and hours cutting them and putting them in wooden frames.


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## EastSideBuzz

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Getting them built out is the trick. You need a good flow on for that. So I put in built comb every other frame so 5 and 5 and they seem to do it quicker.


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## D Semple

*Re: PH120 foundation*



oblib said:


> dang it Barry, I was jusr thinking about my order for next year (everal hundred pf 120's) and how I like the foundation *but hate all the ladder comb due to the top bar being thinner. *Now I will probably spend hours and hours cutting them and putting them in wooden frames.


Wondered what has been causing all the burr comb, it's a pain and I don't have that issue with wooden frames. 

Can't see spending $1.75 for frames though and still needing another frame :scratch:


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## Solomon Parker

*Re: PH120 foundation*

What is ladder comb? I'm not sure I've seen this.


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## Riskybizz

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Sol

The ladder comb is bridge comb that the bees attach to the top frame of one to the bottom frame of another to communicate with. I have noticed that my bees do this a lot with the Mann Lake PF series. Barry I really like your idea, and you did a great job. Thanks for sharing. I much prefer wood frames but have tried to work a lot of 4.9 into my yards. I hosted a field workshop last Sunday at one of my beeyards with guest Mike Bush, and we discussed the small cell applications. I might try cutting a few down like you did.


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## Barry

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I know D Semple did the math on frame costs, but to me, I already have the wooden frames and I have to put something in them. It might be a tad more expensive than straight foundation, but since I'm not aware of anyone else selling the equivalent in foundation form only, it's a small price to pay.


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## Solomon Parker

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I see. I am familiar with that, just not by that name. I'll make note of it for future usage.

From talking with Mike, I was led to believe that it was largely a method to get some drone brood into the hive because PF frames don't really allow for it. I'm attempting to provide at least foundationless frame in each box to compensate. This is the first year of that scheme so I'll see how it works out.


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## Riskybizz

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Barry 

After you rip down the plastic frame how do you attach it to the bottom bar of the wood frame? Not clear by the picture.


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## Barry

*Re: PH120 foundation*

 I was afraid that question was going to come up. I haven't gotten that far yet. I think I'll simply drill two small holes in the flange about 10" apart and nail it down into the bottom bar. Anyone have a faster way of attaching it?


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## Solomon Parker

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Small nails? Big staples? Silicone? Epoxy?


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## WLC

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I noticed the ladder comb between two mediums w/ PF 120s just this morning when I tried prying off the top body with the hive tool. I'm glad I keep a carving knife in the beekeeping bucket otherwise I doubt I would have been able to twist it off.

Then I had to scrape off the ladder/burr comb from the PF 120s.

You can feel the PF120s 'give' when you work them with the hive tool.

Barry, are you still glad you ordered them?

I put some foundationless frames between the drawn PF 120s to see if they draw out the comb 'regressed' or not.


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## BeeCurious

*Re: PH120 foundation*



Barry said:


> Anyone have a faster way of attaching it?


Hot glue gun. I have HSC held in wooden frames by hot glue.


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## Solomon Parker

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I've taken to only prying between the end bars. It's about the only strong part of the frame.


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## Riskybizz

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Barry you might also try using one foundation support pin through the end bars on each side at the bottom to hold the foundation tight


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## westernbeekeeper

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Barry,
Why are you cutting them to fit, instead of just purchasing foundation? Also, did the frames/foundation have any warpage upon arrival?


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## Solomon Parker

*Re: PH120 foundation*

There is currently no 'small cell' foundation available in plastic. Back in the early '00s when I started, Dadant came out with some, but it had very shallow cell walls and was almost universally rejected by the bees. In comparison, I have only had one PF frame misdrawn thus far, out of about 300 that I own. Probably about 200 currently in hives.

I haven't seen much warpage on delivery, but I have seen a little develop later on. Barry will have to comment on his experience, but the pictures look pretty straight.

Also, I recommend against black. If you leave it in the sun for just a few minutes, it will get hot enough to melt the wax.


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## oblib

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Barry, did you find a good way to attach it yet?


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## Barry

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Benjamin, as far as I know, the Mann Lake plastic SC does not come in foundation only. Otherwise I would have ordered it for sure.

oblib, I've put this project away till winter since it's too late to use this year. I'm leaning towards either drilling two small holes in the bottom flange spaced 10" apart and using brads to fasten to bottom bar or trying the hot glue method.


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## oblib

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I was leaning toward the hot glue but was hoping you had already tried a method or two


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## BWrangler

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Hi Guys

This year is my first experience with PF-100s, although I've worked lots of commercial hives with other plastic frame brands.

The plastic material in the end bars is very thin and won't take much compression without crumpling. So, squeezing that last frame into a tight space will damage it. It's a common practice with propolis on wood frames.

Posted my thoughts on PF-100s at:
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/mann-lake-pf-100-plastic-frames/

Regards - Dennis


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## crabbydad

*Re: PH120 foundation*

i'm a first year beek and i have these frames. my bees seem to like them. my only complaint is the openings in the ends. bees get in them when i am removing frames. when i reinsert the frames they trapped in the openigs and die.


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## dnichols

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I have a couple dozen PF's and for the life of me can't get the bees to take to it. They crawl all over it but never build comb. I don't like the plastic frames either. They seem flimsy to me so I like your idea Barry. Maybe I need to paint them with some thicker wax.


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## WLC

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I checkerboaded PF 120s and foundationless frames in a foundationles hive. Now, they've built in the PF 120s only and not the new foundationless frames.

It's been a dearth, and I'll be putting a feeder box on the hives shortly, but I was surprised.

By the way, I did see alot of DWV, and lost a bunch of nucs w/ the exception of one. No feeding or treatments.

The survivor is in a deep, and I'm going to baby it through for next spring.

It can get really hot on the roof, and quite frankly, while spring looked good, July and August knocked the heck out of em.

However, I am going to bring the survivors through on Ritecell.

Call it a hunch, but I like the way it performed. I will still keep working on the small cell/ foundationless in the meantime.

By the way. I've killed alot of bees trying this out.


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## JRG13

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I've got a bunch of these in my new hive, the bees do ok on them but I'm thinking of trying small cell foundation from Mann Lake to see how that goes. If anything, I will do as Barry has and chop the edges off and use wood frames. I got stung last time cuz a bee got in the recess and I put my finger over her and pulling on flexing plastic frames cuz it was bridged at the bottom was a pain.


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## Riskybizz

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I purchased 8-10 cases of PF-100 and PF120's, mainly because it was an inexpensive way to go compared to assembling my own wood frames like I normally do. I also wanted to try out some small cell frames. My bees tend to draw it out equally compared to other plastic cell foundation. I almost always coat on some of my additional melted wax to get them on the plastic quicker. Like any other type of foundation they will draw it out when they are ready to, based on the nectar flow. The problem for me is that the gap space between the bottom bar of one frame and the top bar of the next box. Someone posted that because of the size of the plastic top bar the bees tend to draw out bridge comb and ladder comb in this space. This presents a major problem when manipulating colonies, removing supers and putting the hives back together. You either have to take the time to scrape the wax and honey comb off the top and bottom bars or risk killing lots of bees setting the boxes back together. For me anyways my bees never wax-out that space between the supers with wood frames and plastic foundation. Perhaps this is a design flaw that Mann lake might look at, (i'm sure this is not just happening to me.) If it were just my honey supers it would not be a big deal but I used it a lot in my deep brood boxes and it ends up being quite a mess, in many cases. For me its back to all wood. I'm not a huge fan of plastic frames.


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## Solomon Parker

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Michael Bush has some views on why that is. He says it's partly because of the thickness of the topbar and partly because the plastic frame gives no opportunity for drone comb. It is a downside.


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## JRG13

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Ben,

I pulled a few undrawn ones out, one sat in my car, it bowed slightly, the comb section did, but I wouldn't say it's not usable anymore or anything though.


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## Riskybizz

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I had Michael Bush in my beeyard in July and we discussed it. I'm not so sure it concerns drone comb sizing though. Its much more of a spacing issue and related burr comb issue because of the frame size and construction. The simple solution would be for Mann Lake to just start selling their PF small cell foundation in sheets to install in wood frames right Barry..If I remember this weekend i'll bring my camera along and take a few pictures of this issue.


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## sfisher

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Barry here is a idea how to fasten the bottom of the foundation to the frame. Instead of buying pf120's whicch are for medium frames, you could buy some pf100's, which are for deep frames. Then use frames that have grooved top and bottom boards, and cut the foundation to fit in the medium frames. Let me know if this sounds like it would work, because I am thinking about trying it?


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## Vance G

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I am at this late time in the season drawing out a lot of plastic frames mann lake deeps and mediums. I started thirty splits on used equipment and every one of them had AFB confirmed by Beltsville. I just shook out the last of them last week! Some of the frames which I always order waxless because I have clean wax and they are cheaper, did not get coated. The bees put in this predicament are drawing the frames out very well. They are brooding up as fast as they can and I have high hopes of getting them numerically strong enough a nd with enough stores to winter. Pierco frames are better quality and I really wish they were small cell. If that was the case, I would never buy wood again.


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## JRG13

*Re: PH120 foundation*

I think plastic would make more sense in terms of disease too. You could just bleach them instead of burning your investment. I just notice my bees do not work the plastic frames as well as natural foundation. The edges of the frames always taper down to unused portions. I did notice something that could be useful though. For whatever reason some frames had a circular area(s) removed (I'm assuming the previous owner did it), perhaps queen cell cut outs or maybe the bees did it, I don't know. They're about the size of a quarter or so. In almost every one of them, the bees have built queen cups in them and they fit perfectly. I'm thinking it would be interesting to see if you could get queens built that way, insert a plastic frame with rows of circular cutouts outs on both sides and see if they build a bunch of queen cups in them. Now only if someone would make queencups that could lock onto plastic frames like legos.......


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## crofter

*Re: PH120 foundation*

The foundation can be cut from the PF frames and the resulting panel is exact size of a regular foundation. The top and bottom only needs to have the raised cell portion cut back about 3/16 of an inch by running it over the table saw set that much above the table. 4 passes and the top and bottom is reduced to the width of the slot and can be popped into a regular wooden frame. I just did a few free hand but suggest a feather board of some sort to keep the foundation against the fence as it is a bit wibbly once the frame is lost. A fine tooth plywood blade for your table saw would be nice when cutting off the frame. I may try the band saw when doing the rest.


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## sfisher

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Thanks crofter I have a couple of frames ordered to practice on then I plan on regressing my hives this spring. Now I have to find the easiest way to get the brads out of my frames from when I nailed the paint sticks in them, for foundationless.


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## EastSideBuzz

*Re: PH120 foundation*



JRG13 said:


> Now only if someone would make queencups that could lock onto plastic frames like legos.......


That is what all that wax is for. Just push them into the wax


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## Barry

*Re: PH120 foundation*



sfisher said:


> Instead of buying pf120's whicch are for medium frames, you could buy some pf100's, which are for deep frames. Then use frames that have grooved top and bottom boards, and cut the foundation to fit in the medium frames.


I like this idea. That is basically what I do now with my SC wax foundation as it is the deep size. Another advantage is it allows a space for drone cells at the bottom. Good idea!


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## sfisher

*Re: PF-120 foundation*

I cut out 120 PF frames on Sunday, they turned out nice. I cut the foundation out on the table saw, and then cut the embossed honey comb off the edges with a router. I bought medium PFs and the foundation popped right into grooved top, grooved bottom medium frames. The wax coating on the PF foundation made it want to stick to the tables of the saw and router. They sell it without the wax coating, and its cheaper, but then you have to pay the shipping so its not really worth it. I also cut about a inch of the bottom corners at a 45, for the queen to pass through. Steve


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## beeman2009

*Re: PH120 foundation*



Solomon Parker said:


> I still have five sheets of the Dadant stuff. Did not even get part of one done correctly on multiple tries. You can have it if you want it.


Solomon, if you still have that 4.9 plastic foundation I would like to get it from you, or if you know anyone who has any let me know. I need a few sheets for an experiment I want to try.

Thanks


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## Joseph Clemens

*Re: PH120 foundation*

If you trim PF120's to remove all four frame edges, the remaining, PF120 foundation will fit in medium frames with grooved Top and Bottom Bars (sometimes I find that I need to shave a 1/8" wide strips both top and bottom, removing some of the cell walls, so the foundation will, more easily fit in the wooden frame grooves), this is how I do mine.


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## odfrank

*Re: PH120 foundation*



beeman2009 said:


> if you still have that 4.9 plastic foundation I would like to get it from you, or if you know anyone who has any let me know. I need a few sheets for an experiment I want to try.Thanks


I have a few ten sheet boxes (8.5") I could part with. I have found no value trying small cell.


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## JRG13

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Beeman, you can order 4.9 foundation from ML as well.


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## beeman2009

*Re: PH120 foundation*



odfrank said:


> I have a few ten sheet boxes (8.5") I could part with. I have found no value trying small cell.


odfrank,

PM me with info about this. I am very much interested.

Thanks


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## beeman2009

*Re: PH120 foundation*



JRG13 said:


> Beeman, you can order 4.9 foundation from ML as well.


JRG13,

Thanks for that info. I must have missed it when I looked. I only found the PH120. I wanted just foundation sheets if I could find them otherwise this was my next choice. I really need deep foundation for my experiment.


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## Barry

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Update on my PF120's.









Finished frame. Ah, the feel of wood!









I ended up nailing the bottom flange into the bottom bar.









I trimmed the top edge so it would fit into the top groove.









Took off half the thickness.


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## BeeCurious

*Re: PH120 foundation*

That's really nice looking! 

Are those Narrow Frames as well? 

I haven't had the time to work on my PF-NWF's (Narrow Wooden Frames)... 

Behold! (Solomon might announce) a new term is born...


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## Barry

*Re: PH120 foundation*

No, standard frames.


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## Solomon Parker

*Re: PH120 foundation*

PF-NWF = Plastic Frame - Narrow Wooden Frame

A bit redundant for my taste, needs more splash.


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## Barry

*Re: PH120 foundation*

An update on these frames. As life has a way of going it's own direction, my plans for this spring trying out these frames got derailed due to traveling. But, I was able to hand them off to my neighbor and help her get started in beekeeping. We did a hive inspection last week and added the third brood chamber. The frames we pulled out, the comb looked real nice. I was very pleased with the results. I plan to take some pictures and do some measuring in the next week and will post them here.

Looks like I will start converting over to this frame/foundation setup.

We still have a bunch of PF100's that we'll cut in half and mount into wooden frames as well. If results are good, it will be cheaper to do this.


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## honeydrunk

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Those look great! You are giving me ideas! I was wondering if you could post a pic of them drawn out. I am too impatient to see what it looks like when 5.4 bees draw 4.9 cells. I could just wait a few weeks though I suppose =)


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## beepee

*Re: PH120 foundation*

Hi Barry, looking forward to see photos. What made you mount the bottom flange into the bottom bar? Bees usually start drawing out from the top to the bottom if I observed right.
Cheers Henning


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## Barry

*Re: PF-120 foundation*

Got a chance to measure some of the PF120 combs today. These are from my neighbor's hive. She started beekeeping this year and doing very well at that!

http://www.beesource.com/imgs/barry/pf120measure_1.jpg
http://www.beesource.com/imgs/barry/pf120measure_2.jpg
http://www.beesource.com/imgs/barry/pf120measure_3.jpg
http://www.beesource.com/imgs/barry/pf120measure_4.jpg

10 cells each at 4.9mm equals 1-15/16". Looks like the Cali bees started on the PF120's got pretty darn close to being spot on.

http://www.beesource.com/imgs/barry/pf120measure_5.jpg

Here's a typical frame of finished comb. I'm very impressed with the results and will start converting my own hives over to the plastic foundation fitted into my wooden frames. Tried a few of the plastic PF120 frames and didn't like the results. Prying near the end of the top bar flexes the whole plastic top bar.


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## eccentricbeekeeper

*Re: PF-120 foundation*

I cut out sections of PF-105 with a bandsaw for the handmade frames in my  box hive project. The results have been great. I like the way everything stands out against the black!


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## Barry

*Re: PF-120 foundation*

Today I cut the foundation out of PF-106 plastic frames. I set the saw up so the saw kerf would be just to the inside of the plastic frame parts. The remaining piece of foundation measured 16-13/16" X 8-3/8". After cutting the cell walls off at the top and bottom, the foundation fit perfect into either a grooved top/bottom wood deep frame or a wedge top/groove bottom frame. A bit more time involved in cutting the cells walls off, but a jig could be made to speed this up a lot.


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## Barry

*Re: PF-120 foundation*

Finally got around to cutting some PF106 plastic frames down today. I have some deep frames from Shastina I want to try out, so got to work. These wood frames have a grooved top and bottom bar.









I start with a piece of 3/4" pine, 16-7/8" x 8-3/8". Lay the frame over the board and push frame and board against the fence. I set the blade to cut just inside the bottom bar.


















The board supports the plastic and leaves a small space between the blade so there is no binding.









Bottom off.









I proceed to cut the end bars off using the same board pushed to the opposite side and the miter gauge. Again, cut just inside the end bars.


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## Barry

With the end bars gone, last cut the bottom bar.


















The best place for plastic frame parts, also called SHB hotels, is in the recycling can.


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## Mike Gillmore

That seems like a lot of work. Do you think any bee equipment supplier might be "considering" manufacturing SC plastic foundation sheets?


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## Barry

I have an email in to Nick at Acorn. Don't know, but I won't be buying more of Mann Lake. I'll be using these in some experiments I'm doing.


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## Barry

Nick says just a rumor. Their foundation size is 5.28.


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