# Another disadvantage with Foundationless



## rhaldridge

Maybe I'm just lucky, but none of mine have broken, not even after being in the freezer. I also string my frames with monofilament.


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## westernbeekeeper

rhaldridge said:


> I also string my frames with monofilament.


There's your winning point.


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## Daniel Y

I have had that happen right out of the hives while the comb was full of honey and covered in bees. As for this one. A little melted wax on the seams and it will be right as rain. I have actually re attached comb on a top bar that way once.


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## burns375

westernbeekeeper said:


> There's your winning point.


Love the mono-filament, used it on wax foundation before switching to plastic.


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## heaflaw

burns375 said:


> Love the mono-filament, used it on wax foundation before switching to plastic.


What is mono-filament, where do I get it and how to use it?


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## Saltybee

Fishing line. How are others fastening it. Stapling lets some loose.

Starting separate thread.


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## WWW

monofilament is fishing line, if I am not mistaken 10# is what people use. It is strung on the frames much the same as wire although I have seen it used in an x pattern as well. I have tried monofilament a few years ago but I still prefer wire.


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## gone2seed

Fatbeeman has instructions on youtube.Monofilament does break, but rarely in my experience.By the time the break occurs the wax has usually hardened enough to resist breakage.


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## stan.vick

I have used mono fishing line for five years and plan to continue using it. For a deep frame I drill a very small hole on the upper side leg near the top, I then cut a 7 1/2 ft piece of fifty pound test line and run one end through the small hole and tie a knot, I then run the line through all the other (wiring) holes and tie it off near the bottom. 
Ten pound line is a real problem, they sometimes chew though it and does not have enough surface area to hold the comb well, fifty pound is much better, also you can stand the frame upright, hold the bottom "side leg" with your foot and stretch the line so tight you can play a tune on it, after you get used to doing it you can tie one every two to three minutes.


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## WWW

stan.vick said:


> Ten pound line is a real problem, they sometimes chew though it and does not have enough surface area to hold the comb well, fifty pound is much better,


That would explain why my experience with mono-filament concluded with the bees chewing it up, 50# would definitely be the way to go.


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## WWW

odfrank,
I wanted to reply to your original post, it would appear to me that your comb did not have very much cross section to it, in other words the cells were not drawn out at the point where the comb broke off leaving it very fragile at this juncture. The comb is a darker color in the area of breakage indicating that it was used by the bees so I would need to ask; if it was used by the bees why is it thinned out with no drawn cells at the break line?


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## crofter

I tried some of the super strong and thin micro braided line and as stan.vick says, the cross section is too small and it just cuts through the fresh comb. I was decapping drone cells and the thin line started cutting the comb in strips. Big fat old monofiliament gets a grip on things! Easier to knot or wind around a nail and pound in like Fatbeeman does.


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## rhaldridge

I'm lazy, so I just run 2 strands of the stuff through the frame and knot it to itself at a hole, Because the line slips, you can get it banjo tight with just your hands. Then I dab a little Titebond on the knot to stabilize it. You can do a couple frames every minute, just sitting and watching TV. I haven't had any come loose yet


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## odfrank

WWW said:


> odfrank,
> I wanted to reply to your original post, it would appear to me that your comb did not have very much cross section to it, in other words the cells were not drawn out at the point where the comb broke off leaving it very fragile at this juncture. The comb is a darker color in the area of breakage indicating that it was used by the bees so I would need to ask; if it was used by the bees why is it thinned out with no drawn cells at the break line?


It probably was scratched and extracted. It was a cutcomb frame not fit for cutcomb. I had to sort two hundred honey supers looking for the newer combs for a new special brood chamber. Many of my verticle wired combs date back to the late '70s.


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## Colino

I plan on doing my foundationless this way, has anyone else tried it?

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290702-No-more-wiring-frames-for-me&highlight=bamboo+skewers


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## WWW

odfrank said:


> It probably was scratched and extracted.


Ok, that would explain the condition of the comb, I was just trying to get to the root cause of damage, thanks.


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## odfrank

>I plan on doing my foundationless this way, has anyone else tried it?

My friend who is an extreme cheapskate does that. What is the time and material cost savings over wiring? You have to buy the skewers. Are they cheaper than grommets and wire? You have to cut and insert the skewers. How much time are you saving? The same goes for mono-filament line IMHO. What is the savings and benefit over the proven method of using wires?


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## crofter

odfrank I dont think there is much cost savings over wire. It has the advantage if you want to cut out queen cells or cutting out drone comb.

I think oxalic acid treatments may be hard on wire where it is exposed but have not noticed any breakage in three years but do see some of it looking less than shiny.


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## Colino

odfrank said:


> >I plan on doing my foundationless this way, has anyone else tried it?
> 
> My friend who is an extreme cheapskate does that. What is the time and material cost savings over wiring? You have to buy the skewers. Are they cheaper than grommets and wire? You have to cut and insert the skewers. How much time are you saving? The same goes for mono-filament line IMHO. What is the savings and benefit over the proven method of using wires?


I can get the skewers at the dollar store for a $1 per 100 and the time is something I have lots of this winter. I'm just interested in the durability of them and all my frames are homemade so I would have to drill holes etc.


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## rhaldridge

odfrank said:


> >
> How much time are you saving? The same goes for mono-filament line IMHO. What is the savings and benefit over the proven method of using wires?


For foundationless, I think the advantage of heavy monofilament is that its diameter is so much greater than wire, so that it is less likely to cut the comb when the comb is soft. Plus it's faster to install than wire, the way I do it.


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## Daniel Y

I tried using monofilament but the bees chewed it out of the comb in less than a year. Never tried wire. I plan on using the skewers. I used small diameter dowel in my top bar for the first ten bars or so. it has worked well. one dowel has gotten broken off and it tends to casue the bees to mis direct the comb as they draw it so I did not put it on the rest of the bars. The comb has since been corrected.


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## Michael Bush

>has anyone else tried it?

I've done a dowel but not the skewers. I don't think it's much different.

>For foundationless, I think the advantage of heavy monofilament is that its diameter is so much greater than wire, so that it is less likely to cut the comb when the comb is soft.

Wire needs to be crimped. Then it disperses the stress over a larger area and in different directions.


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## cerezha

All my bars in medium-size category have no additional support. Bars for deep-size box needed some side support.


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## squarepeg

nice pics sergey! that honey looks good enough to eat!


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## cerezha

O, thank you! My bees are working very hard even in winter. Honey from those frames were extracted on Christmas day, thus - it is "Christmas honey"!


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## squarepeg

good work and congratulations. i know how special it is to enjoy your own honey!


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## Gypsi

I use 20 lb fishing line, bees haven't chewed through it.


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## Moon

I have a lot of deep frames that I have that are foundationless, that wax looks pretty white odfrank, and I noticed it's not attached on the sides. I have had some break out like that, and the majority of the ones that do are not attached. I don't run foundationless in my supers just in my brood boxes. I have noticed the ones in the brood boxes that get a little bit of age to them have quite a bit more rigidity; however, I do have some that will crack throughout the entire comb but not fall out (these bloody Wyoming winters will reek havoc on them, maybe the expansion and contraction of a -20F night followed by a 40F high the next day?) but as long as they don't fall out the bees will patch them up in the spring. I do really like having the BB's foundationless so I'm in the process of moving all of my rite-cell into my supers and all of my BB's foundationless, it's been about a two year process for fifty colonies, pleased with the results so far.


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## SeaCucumber

This is my 1st year. I put up 7 traps (mostly cardboard boxes) on June 11 and caught my bees on June 20. I'm supposed to put traps up in April and catch bees in mid May to mid June.

My plan was to use foundation in the 1st box and checkerboard up. In the future I could get more hives and use healthy drawn comb to checkerboard new swarms, so I'm completely foundationless.
Frames I have: 50 foundationless, 10 foundation
setup: all 10 frame mediums (all unwired)
Perhaps I should have used all deeps. 90 lbs isn't much for me, and shouldn't be much for most people (provided they have a healthy diet).

There are some rules I found/follow.
1. Make the hive level.
2. Don't tilt the frames unless they are fully drawn, and preferably not hot.
3. Checkerboard (place drawn comb in-between empty frames).
- Comb used in checkerboarding should have lots of brood, or a lot of it should be capped.
4. Empty frames should have something to direct the bees to hang from the middle. In the future I will buy foundationless frames from kelleybees.com.

An elderly woman agreed to inspect my hive. She appeared to be experienced, and spoke a lot about her experience. I told her to not tilt frames, but she tilted one, and I had to reattach the comb. She also crushed a lot of bees (possibly even 10). Even with all of this, my bees didn't sting. I will requeen them to make them more aggressive as soon as possible. I've never used smoke.

*questions for the op*
Why would someone extract honey from a frame that's not drawn?
Did the op break a rule?

*questions*
An experienced guy tried checkerboarding with wired foundationless frames. He said the bees built around the wire. Should the wire/skewers be coated in wax? Michael Bush said he extracts from unwired mediums.


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## Gypsi

white wax is not as strong. I use wedge frames so they draw from the center and I've not had a problem with extraction or comb falling apart, and ahem, its hot in Texas. Bee inspector slightly damaged one foundationless frame last year but not a total collapse. I don't wire mediums.

And 90 lbs is a lot for me, I just got my spine all back in line today, not allowed to lift that full deep for a day or 2, and it would be better if I pull the frames and split them into nucs when I pull it.


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## deknow

I would seriously doubt that wire would strengthen fresh soft and full combs of honey better than a wooden skewer or slat. Remember that the purpose of wiring was always to keep the foundation from buckling, not to strengthen the comb.


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## Michael Palmer

deknow said:


> Remember that the purpose of wiring was always to keep the foundation from buckling, not to strengthen the comb.


And cross wires with wired foundation don't strengthen the comb?


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## scituatema

burns375 said:


> Love the mono-filament, used it on wax foundation before switching to plastic.



why did you switch?


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## odfrank

>*questions for the op*
Why would someone extract honey from a frame that's not drawn?
Did the op break a rule?

I extract cut combs that were not completed well enough to cut in an attempt to re-use them next year. If I broke a rule I hope I am not banished from BS for doing so. Here are two we extracted this year:


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## deknow

Michael Palmer said:


> And cross wires with wired foundation don't strengthen the comb?


 course once the comb is hardened that the wires will add strength. And a drunk driving traffic stop will net drivers with expired registrations....but that isn't why they do the traffic stops.

Remember that the extractor was invented before foundation....and wiring was never necessary enough to be used until beekeepers started to use foundation and it buckled before it could get drawn properly.

A wire running through fresh honeycomb full of honey is a knife.

...but I've seen you handle foundation less frames before....you should stick to foundation 

Deknow

Deknow


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## odfrank

>Remember that the purpose of wiring was always to keep the foundation from buckling, not to strengthen the comb.

I disagree with that statement.

I have for decades used uncleated grooved top bars and grooved bottom bars with horizontal wires. As the foundation is not attached to the bars, the horizontal wires are the only item preventing the comb from bulging or popping out of the frame during extracting. This system works excellently for my purposes. 

I for one, do not hang blindly on every word spoken by Michael Bush and Dee Lusby. I prefer to develop techniques garnered over decades of experience.


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## crofter

I have done some foundationless frames and I prefer to prewire them and let the bees build foundationless comb around the wire. You dont have to be so painstaking when examining frames and you can lean the frame up against the hive without it spilling. Yes a fresh drawn deep frame filled with honey on a hot day can cut through the wire but it stands a better chance than one that is not wired. You can argue all you want about exactly why wiring came to be but that has dick to do with whether it is an asset. Is it an absolute essential? No. I bet that time saved by not wiring is more than used up having to pussyfoot around a more delicate frame. I think sometimes people get off on an idealistic bent and then grasp for ways to justify the idealism. 

Anyways if you are going to wire I think the little wire crimper tool adds to the grip on the comb and is a slick way of tensioning or retensioning the wire.


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## Michael Palmer

>>course once the comb is hardened that the wires will add strength. And a drunk driving traffic stop will net drivers with expired registrations....but that isn't why they do the traffic stops.>>

Odd comparison Dean

>>Remember that the extractor was invented before foundation....and wiring was never necessary enough to be used until beekeepers started to use foundation and it buckled before it could get drawn properly.<<

They never used a radial extractor.

>>A wire running through fresh honeycomb full of honey is a knife.<<

Not when the horizontal wires are embedded against several vertical wires. 

>>...but I've seen you handle foundation less frames before....you should stick to foundation<<

I caught it. No damage done.


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## deknow

1. Frank....don't take my word for it...the various wiring schemes and the motivations behind them are well described in ABC of Bee Culture..at least the 9 new through the 70s I think. I'm not at home and type get 9 my phone, but the historical progression is very clear.

2. Mike, I misread your question...but what the bleep are you talking about? I'm saying that wires were never found necessary until the use of foundation....you are asking me about pre-wired foundation and the strength perpendicular wiring adds...to foundation. 

Beekeepers were extracting happily from unwired combs....it was buckling foundation that was the motivation to wire the frames. Perhaps the added strength made the invention of the radial extractor possible...but the historical progression is pretty clear, and I happen to think it is helpful to understand such things.

Deknow


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## deknow

We have a lot of foundation less frames...all deeps, very few with wires.

I think when we first started I did dump a comb....once. a heavy comb that is cut through by a wire would stand a much better chance if treated as if it didn't have a wire...in which case the wire isn't doing anything.

Deknow



crofter said:


> I have done some foundationless frames and I prefer to prewire them and let the bees build foundationless comb around the wire. You dont have to be so painstaking when examining frames and you can lean the frame up against the hive without it spilling. Yes a fresh drawn deep frame filled with honey on a hot day can cut through the wire but it stands a better chance than one that is not wired. You can argue all you want about exactly why wiring came to be but that has dick to do with whether it is an asset. Is it an absolute essential? No. I bet that time saved by not wiring is more than used up having to pussyfoot around a more delicate frame. I think sometimes people get off on an idealistic bent and then grasp for ways to justify the idealism.
> 
> Anyways if you are going to wire I think the little wire crimper tool adds to the grip on the comb and is a slick way of tensioning or retensioning the wire.


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## deknow

odfrank said:


> I have for decades used uncleated grooved top bars and grooved bottom bars with horizontal wires. As the foundation is not attached to the bars, the horizontal wires are the only item preventing the comb from bulging or popping out of the frame during extracting. This system works excellently for my purposes.


And without (or before) foundation, how would one get comb that wasn't attached to the top bar?

We routinely extract (tangentially) foundationless frames with only popsicle stick guides. I'm not sure what you mean when you say the comb is not attached to the bars...don't the bees attach at least to the top bars?

If your description is accurate, how come my foundationless frames don't pop out during extraction....with no wires at all?


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## odfrank

>I'm not sure what you mean when you say the comb is not attached to the bars...don't the bees attach at least to the top bars?

I said the foundation is not attached to the topbar. It becomes attached as the bees draw out the comb.

<If your description is accurate, how come my foundationless frames don't pop out during extraction....with no wires at all?

You are extracting tangentially, the comb and frame is resting and supported against a grid. 

My original post was about breakage from cold, not extracting. My post #35 shows medium foundationless combs surviving radial extracting. 

You are so keen to promote and defend your dogma that you are not reading the thread carefully.


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