# foundationless frame extracting



## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Sasha,
as you probably already know, any extracting of young comb requires finess. I've carelessly blown out prewired comb. The trick for you will simply be using more finess. You're in better shape if it has been used for brood. It should also make good cut-comb. At any rate, use care and make sure the comb is attached on ALL sides.

Waya


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They extract fine if they meet these criteria:

The wax is mature. (They are more than a couple of weeks old. ) You can tell if they are not because the wax is soft like putty. In a week or two it will be much stronger.

The comb is attched at least a little bit on all four sides.

You treat them gently when you start out. Once the weight of the honey has dropped you can crank them up like any empty comb in an extractor.

I extract them all the time.


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## BusyBee (Nov 30, 2003)

MB, Would adding a thin strip of wood or two to the center of a foundationless frame help make it more durable for extracting? I was thinking of trying it to see what happens. I am also adding a strip of wood to the bottom bar's groove in hopes that the bees will attach the comb to the bottom more readily. What do you think?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>MB, Would adding a thin strip of wood or two to the center of a foundationless frame help make it more durable for extracting?

I haven't had any problems extracting them if I meet the above criteria. Langstroth put a center "post" in his frames that is a diamond shape (square but turned so the points are in line with the comb instead of the flat sides).

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/LangstrothFrame.jpg

I've also put a horizontal 1/16" welding rod in the center of the Dadant deep foundationless frames.

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/DadantDeep1.jpg

But this is right where the bottom bar is on the mediums that I run.

With mediums I haven't found any of this necessary

> I was thinking of trying it to see what happens. I am also adding a strip of wood to the bottom bar's groove in hopes that the bees will attach the comb to the bottom more readily. What do you think? 

The strip of wood will speed up the attachment on the bottom as does a triangular guide on the bottom. L.L. Langstroth put the bevel on the top sides and middle post, but not on the bottom. Charles Martin Simon puts them on the top and bottom. On my Dadant deeps I put a bevel all the way around. (see above picture) On the mediums I think it's all an unecessary waste of effort.


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## BusyBee (Nov 30, 2003)

Thanks MB,
The pics were a great help. I now have a better idea of what I'm getting into. I will be trying the foundationless frames in a split I have. I've just been frusterated at the bees unwillingness to draw out the Pierco frames this year. So I thought I would look into a more cost effective alternative. This seems to be the way to go. 

BTW, I know that I can add more wax/sugar-water to the Pierco to increase acceptance. I figure that for the cost of them, I shouldn't have too (I'm stubborn like that). So thats what's driving me down another path.

Will have to let you know how it works for me.
Thanks again, Jon


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You could cut the center out of the Pierco, leaving 1/4" all the way around, and you'd have a plastic foundationless frame.







You could even wax the leftover edge.


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

I have tried to extract two of my f-less frame.One was ok , the second one failled.But it was not well enough attached and a litle bit too soft.I think I will use wires for my f-less frames.
Or maybee I should wait a little bit longer before extracting?Will see.
My question for Michael Bush,will bees draw natural cell size when using LC starter strips in f-less frames?I have measured on one frame 5.4 cell size and on another 5.2.I will be checking more frames and see how are they doing.


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## BusyBee (Nov 30, 2003)

MB, The reason I was trying foundationless frames is because my bees were not taking the Pierco. And I would hate to cut up nice new plastic frames. I'll just stick to foundationless wood for now. Thanks


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## amymcg (Jan 13, 2005)

I have used LC starter strips, and they do in fact get smaller below the strip. If they want drone cells though, they will build it larger.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have tried to extract two of my f-less frame.One was ok , the second one failled.But it was not well enough attached and a litle bit too soft.

Those are the criteria. It needs to be well attached and aged enough that it's not soft.

>I think I will use wires for my f-less frames.

That's an option. One I'm too lazy for because I only have to wait a little longer and they will attach it and the wax will harden.

>Or maybee I should wait a little bit longer before extracting?

Exactly.

>My question for Michael Bush,will bees draw natural cell size when using LC starter strips in f-less frames?I have measured on one frame 5.4 cell size and on another 5.2.I will be checking more frames and see how are they doing.

I have not used the large cell starter strips, but others who have, report that they quickly get smaller after the intial row. I would prefer the small cell starter strips, myself, but they may work fine.


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