# Swarm trap: What do you load/or not load your trap with?



## Charlie B

I use two frames of drawn comb, one on each side next to the walls to give it an open appearance. I then fill the rest of the box in with foundationless frames with wax coated starter strips keeping with the roomy appearance. That way, they just start filling in the frames after they roost. I also use lemongrass oil as a lure. They love it.

Swarms here usually start late March early April and run clear through to September.

Spring will be here before you know it. Happy hunting!! :thumbsup:


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## Michael Bush

I use one old brood comb and the rest empty foundationless frames (frames with a comb guide).


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## beerbee

I use waxed plastic foundation with some lemongrass oil. I tried some drawn comb in a couple and the wax moths had a hay-day with it before any bees found it. I may put in some foundationless frames along with the plastic foundation this year.


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## odfrank

I have had so many deadouts the last few years I have been able to fill mine with almost all old black comb and a few drops of LGO. The 8 frame wineboxes I set out last year with mostly broken yellow extracting combs and LGO had only 33 % success. 
Down by the bay the swarms start beginning of March and the dates get later moving west up the hill to 280 just a few miles. I got a call as early as 2/15 last year. 
I am always cautious setting out boxes with foundation unless it will soon get drawn out, the foundation can warp in an unventilated box. Charlie and Michael's layout sounds like a good plan. I have had no moth problems until later in the summer.
I am making 8 framers now but have had good luck with 5 framers, which are easier for a old decrepit fart like me to carry.


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## VolunteerK9

Placing foundationless frames is a good idea if its a while in between checks to see if you have caught anything, but make sure that your traps are nice and level (from side to side) or else its going to be one heckuva mess. I place an old drawn frame with LGO and fill the rest with plastic frames that werent drawn out the summer prior. Its kina like fishing, the more lines in the water, the better your success rate.


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## Solomon Parker

I have used 1 or 2 brood frames and the rest foundation in the past, but foundationless instead of foundation now sounds like a better idea. I've only used commercially avialable swarm bait thus far, though I'd like to graduate to Mr. Bush's swarm lure. I'm gonna have to bring myself to kill a few queens.


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## BeeGhost

Thanks to everyone for their input!! I have plenty of plastic/waxed foundation and also have some chunks of black comb from a couple removals that I could stick in the boxes, and LGO. I may stagger plastic foundation and foundationless frames and see what happens..............a fishing I will go come spring, well, actually i'll set some traps out in February so they are established before the swarms start!!

Again, thank you to everyone for your ideas!!.................Jason


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## Charlie B

Jason,

Don't do the plastic foundation stagger thing, I tried it and they don't like it. They like the look of plenty of room and foundationless works well to that end.

Keep us posted. I plan to beat odfranks record of 50 swarms next year.  We'll see how it goes. 

Good hunting!


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## BeeGhost

Holy crap Charlie, I dont think you and I together could top odfranks 50 swarms!! Thats incredible!!

Looks like I wont try the staggering thing, just a chunk of black comb, LGO and foundationless frames!! Thanks for the heads up!!........Jason


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## odfrank

Charlie B said:


> J I plan to beat odfranks record of 50 swarms next year.  We'll see how it goes. Good hunting!


I think my record is higher, I lost track this year. This is what I set out Spring 2011, I think there was another pile, some caught more than one, the wineboxes only caught 33%:


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## D Semple

odfrank said:


>


Like your window decoration Frank, beekeeping makes me thirsty too.


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## Charlie B

Don't plant those things anywhere near my bee yards! :no:


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## Jaseemtp

Frank where do you get those disc entrances?


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## Solomon Parker

You can get metal and plastic at Kelley and plastic at Brushy Mountain. I like the big metal ones.


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## WWW

Charlie B said:


> I use two frames of drawn comb, one on each side next to the walls to give it an open appearance. I then fill the rest of the box in with foundationless frames with wax coated starter strips keeping with the roomy appearance. That way, they just start filling in the frames after they roost. I also use lemongrass oil as a lure. They love it.
> 
> Swarms here usually start late March early April and run clear through to September.
> 
> Spring will be here before you know it. Happy hunting!! :thumbsup:


Charlie, could you tell me how you apply or dispense the lemongrass oil in your swarm trap, I plan on setting out a number of them this spring.....Bill


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## Charlie B

WWW said:


> Charlie, could you teel me how you apply or dispense the lemongrass oil in your swarm trap, I plan on setting out a number of them this spring.....Bill


Bill, 

I put about 5 or 6 drops of LGO on a piece of paper towel. I then put the paper towel into a zip lock sandwich bag and place it on the floor of the box near the back wall. I leave the zip lock bag half open to where there's just a crack of an opening. This way the LGO doesn't dissipate and it last for a whole season. For ceremonial purposes, I Cristen the entrance by rubbing a few drops all around it with my finger while praying and asking God to help me beat odfrank in swarm captures. (That part is optional but fun :thumbsup.

Another thing I do is use a box with a 1 1/2" hole instead of the traditional entrance. I think the hole best mimics a tree for feral colonies.
I use 8 frame mediums and deeps I got from a commercial buddy of mine that were in pretty bad shape. I repaired them and they work great. Talk about a lived in smell!


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## Keth Comollo

Solomon,
Can you tell me the diameter of the hole in the metal ones? 

Thanks!


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## Solomon Parker

Yes, it is about 1 1/2", exactly what Charlie was suggesting. You can see a good picture of two on some plywood nucs here: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-p3SboPh3KFk/TaCdp8xDtoI/AAAAAAAABtU/9kGCvwucTVk/s1600/IMG_1169.JPG

They are handy because after you've caught a swarm, you can rotate the disc around to the screened portion and haul them home. They also include queen excluder (or includer) slots as an option.


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## WWW

Thanks Charlie, your a peach.....Bill


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## Jaseemtp

Thanks Sol, do you not like the plastic ones because of a shorter life span?


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## odfrank

I found that if you hang those metal entrance disks with the hole at the bottom, and the bolt is loose, they will swing themselves shut because the hole side is lighter and it revolves to the top. I lost a huge swarm this summer because of one self closing. But, I prefer the entrance at the bottom for better drainage and cleaning. 

Also, I have for years just sprinkled a few drops of LGO on a comb and at the entrance, no baggies no nothing. It soaks into the wood and wax and several of my boxes catch more than one swarm a year without a second baiting.


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## Solomon Parker

Jaseemtp said:


> do you not like the plastic ones because of a shorter life span?


I have not tried the plastic ones, and I don't plan to. Why buy something in plastic when you can get something in metal. The metal is galvanized and will last decades without a doubt. I don't know of anything plastic that is positively known to hold up that long in direct sunlight, including the bed of my pickup. inch:


Frank you seem to be the master at baiting swarms, but let's be honest, your climate has just a little to do with it.:shhhh:


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## odfrank

Solomon Parker;733405The metal is galvanized and will last decades without a doubt. I don't know of anything plastic that is positively known to hold up that long in direct sunlight said:


> I have had the plastic ones break within two years, but are still functional. You can see a broken blue one in the picture. I switched to metal.
> 
> My swarm trapping success is not due to my skill, knowledge, or technique, but rather my good looks. Also adding to my success is the climate, suburban flora, bee clubs that import hundreds of packages to my area, lots of beginner beekeepers who don't give their colonies enough space, numerous hollow oak trees to house feral bees, and most of all, lots of beekeeper swarm catching guys like Charlie with numerous hives in their yard pitching swarms. Yes, I do nothing more than you guys, just old combs and LGO. I am just in an area with literally thousands of swarms flying around. I think I have over 90% success. I caught 13 at one site, which must be within range of someone who buys his bees, some were clearly a commercial strain. I am trapping in dense suburban neighbor hoods.


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## Solomon Parker

Now that I have two yards and options on other spots, I'm going to push to catch more swarms this year. Last year, I caught 2 from three traps, but the ones within reach of my house are so tiny, a few cupfuls of bees, but they're good at winter survival. I know they're not mine, my hives are all kept much larger.

I use 5 frame nucs, because they are easier to haul up into trees. This last year, I screwed a vertical board to the side with a hole in the top to screw straight into the tree.

Unfortunately, unlike you, there are few beekeepers around here. Forage is slim most of the year and there are no commercials and few backyarders. I'm convinced these consistently small swarms are coming from small tree hollows around here somewhere.


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## odfrank

Solomon Parker said:


> I use 5 frame nucs, because they are easier to haul up into trees.


I never place them higher than I can reach standing on the ground. I like top of garden walls, picnic tables, over turned garbage cans, top of wood piles, hoods of abandoned cars. Woodpiles work particularly well:


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## Solomon Parker

That's a good plan and I'd love to do that, but most of the area I have access to is pasture. There's goodly sized trees with the lowest branches six feet or more off the ground. I plop my 8 foot ladder against the tree, climb up with the box and a screw gun and it goes pretty quick.

About what density to you scatter them about?


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## odfrank

Solomon Parker said:


> About what density to you scatter them about?


You might try and find 15g. nursery buckets for bait hive stands. 
I put one, two or three at sites spread from San Francisco north to San Jose in the south, probably a 50 mile spread. On some Saturday nights I have picked up as many as six a week. I get a lot at my shop where I keep about 30 hives, some of my own and some fly ins. As Charlie says, apiaries seem to attract fly ins. Having a solar melter cooking helps attract them also.


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## Gypsi

Charlie B said:


> Jason,
> 
> They like the look of plenty of room and foundationless works well to that end.
> 
> Good hunting!


Charlie and OD, I'm following you. Any idea if mid-february is too early to start in North Texas?
(I've got the itch...going to trap those robbers...)

Gypsi


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## Solomon Parker

odfrank said:


> On some Saturday nights I have picked up as many as six a week.


What do you do with all of them?


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## odfrank

Gypsi said:


> Any idea if mid-february is too early to start in North Texas?
> 
> Ask local beekeepers.


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## odfrank

Solomon Parker said:


> What do you do with all of them?


Replace dead outs, sell, combine for honey production. We have had about 50%+ winter losses here since 2006.


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## Gypsi

What is this metal disk being discussed up-thread? It is ok to just use a bottom entrance hive or nuc with mainly open frames, and a bottom opening, bit of comb on one frame and some LGO, right? I did trap a small swarm in September with just a nuc baited with wax coated plastic frames, one with comb, and LGO, no fancy anything.


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## Charlie B

Gypsi,

Use your hive boxes you had this summer, (You need a lure box with that "lived in smell"). They will hit on a bottom entrance if you use an entrance reducer down to about 1 1/2 inches. They want to be able to protect themselves because they're vulnerable when they first get established so a smaller entrance is attractive to them. (Even robber bees want protection)

Set them out in early spring. You have nothing to lose, your boxes would just be sitting in storage anyway, right? You may get some free bees to make up for your loses over the summer.


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## bevy's honeybees

Is smaller better? I have 2 nuks I'm going to use for lures--I wondered can I also use a shallow super and put in a frame or two of drawn comb and then foundationless frames? Instead of a deep box? I also have medium supers I could use. 

My first swarm catch last year, I used LG oil, and also on a daily basis I had a popsicle stick I dipped in honey and that got them in checking it out. It took about 4-5 days to get a swarm in. 

I'm placing boxes under a tree where I've seen swarms, including one that bailed on me last year and then came back when I placed it at the tree they'd swarmed to. I think they were driven out by robber bees. It was a small removal I'd done from a water meter for a co-worker. They left and I put out the box, 48 hrs they were back. I'm assuming it was the same colony.


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## Gypsi

Charlie,

Should I put the boxes at normal hive height - which I did last year, or maybe put one up on top of my shed or in my big tree. (and if I put it in the big tree I'm guessing that dial an opening is how to keep bees in when getting it down?)

Gypsi


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## Charlie B

Bevy,

Just like it was mentioned earlier, it's like fishing. I would place different sizes out and give them choices. I had a medium and a deep out in my yard in SF and they chose the medium. I had both out in Saratoga and they chose the deep. The colony that chose the deep was twice the size of the colony that chose the medium. As stated, odfrank has a great deal of success with nucs. If you know of a tree or other area that a previous swarm has landed, that's your best bet besides placing them in your apiary. 

Gypsi,

I would place a box where you caught that one over the summer. Like odfrank said, I don't think you have to place them too high in a tree. Don't kill yourself trying to get height. If you bait it properly, that's what matters the most. Remember, you have to get it back down full of bees. Yes, the dial will close the entrance but still allow air in. Make sure the dial is not loose and spins open as your retrieving the box from on high. Not a good combo!!! I just duct tape window screen over the entrance. (I don't have money like odfrank does to buy luxury items like that). 

Happy Hunting!!


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## Gypsi

Thank you Charlie! I'm probably sticking to duct tape and screening too. If they like a bit higher I could set one on a board over my trailer's toolbox, and have a manageable height. There were enough robbers to make a few boxes worthwhile. Got to afford that spray for the combs to keep moths off of it, but I've got drawn comb. and the boxes I had made in October that my ex finally got straightened out.... 

Gypsi


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## bevy's honeybees

Thanks Charlie--I will do all three ideas in spring. I've not yet tried baiting at my apiary so I will do that too. I like the baits in my back yard because then I can watch it happen, and my grandkids love it too.


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## millerwb

When putting in open frames, are they wired?


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## Charlie B

I use all mediums so I don't wire my frames but I think you could put in empty wired frames and the bees wouldn't care. It's not like the wire gives it a less roomy look. Swarms move into electrical boxes and water meter boxes all the time with a lot more obstruction than wired frames so I don't think it would make any difference.


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## odfrank

Charlie B said:


> I use two frames of drawn comb, one on each side next to the walls to give it an open appearance. I then fill the rest of the box in with foundationless frames with wax coated starter strips keeping with the roomy appearance.


What was your percent of cross combing when using multiple foundationless frames in a row for your bait hives?


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## Charlie B

I didn't really have much but I only let the swarm stay in the lure boxes for a week or so at the most then transferred them to a new hive. I've had one or two hives that made a complete mess so I had to integrate foundation frames between some of the messy foundationless frames when I re-hived them to a new box. Sometimes that doesn't even work.


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## odfrank

I ran short of honey supers last summer and made up a bunch with foundationless interspersed with comb. Because I had more foundationless than comb, I had a few boxes with two foundationless next to each other. In most cases, they crossed combed the two together. I didn't mind it in a honey super, just cut them out and increase my wax output. But I suspect it is a bad idea in a bait hive unless everyone's lifestyle is like yours where you have so much leisure time that you can check all your hives daily just by climbing to the rooftop. This is one in which they did not cross comb, even with three in a row. Notice the drawn combs were made fat, and the new foundationless combs were thin. 

Correction: this picture is a box of drawn combs interspersed with foundation. That is why there was no cross combing.


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## Charlie B

Why is it that some colonies build really nice straight comb on foundationless then others insist on making a solid block of comb inside the box no matter what you do?


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## odfrank

Charlie B said:


> Why is it that some colonies build really nice straight comb on foundationless then others insist on making a solid block of comb inside the box no matter what you do?


There are some strains of bees much better at drawing comb or making attractive cappings than others. Old time comb honey producers selected bees just for that purpose. I have thrown big swarms on foundation that have trashed it like a rock band in a motel room.


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## Charlie B

Here's what the activity looks like right before they move in. The next day, a basketball size swarm took up residence.


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## Troy

Use Sundance's Bt Aizawai powder for wax moth control. It works great.


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## Goat Man

I am new to beekeeping and I have a question . I am wanting to go to a smaller cell size of 4.9mm. for various reasons. If I use "bought bees", I know they will be use to the standard 5.4mm cell size. I would have to regress them. My question is can I assume a wild swarm I may trap is use to the 4.9mm cell size. Therefore not needing to be regressed? This would save time and expense. Any replies appreciated!!


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## Solomon Parker

A swarm will likely be closer than conventional bees, but many times, the swarm will be from a conventional beehives, making them only a little better than a package.

Catch as many swarms as you can and go from there. Free bees.


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## Charlie B

Goat Man said:


> My question is can I assume a wild swarm I may trap is use to the 4.9mm cell size. Therefore not needing to be regressed?


It's hard to tell if you have a true "feral" swarm. At first, I thought all the swarms I trapped were feral until I spotted a marked queen in one of them so who knows. 

Even if you actually witnessed the progression of a colony swarming from a tree cavity to cluster on a nearby tree branch, and then eventually chose your swarm trap, how do you know that colony didn't come from a beekeepers hive to the original tree cavity? Like Soloman says, catch as many as possible and give them a good home.


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## odfrank

I have caught many swarms baited on to small cell combs. This fall I caught one baited on to small cell foundation. It is one of my strongest colonies right now. But this is not an endorsement of small cell, which I have to date not found to have any advantages. the reason I have caught many swarms onto small cell is that as many as them have died on me as large cell. Last year 100% of my ten hive small cell apiary died.


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## Gypsi

OD,

That's a lotta bees to lose. Is there a lot of spraying or something going on in your part of California? I'm hoping to hear a better survival rate locally as we come out of winter. If I don't, well I may go ahead and bait for bees, but I will not buy more to bring them in. And I will cease spending on eqpt, etc. I've already cut back and built some myself. May go to top bar, no foundation to worry about. If of course there are any bees left come spring....


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## odfrank

Gypsi said:


> Is there a lot of spraying or something going on in your part of California? I'm hoping to hear a better survival rate locally as we come out of winter.


Little spraying here. From what I see and read, it seems to me to be a virus or Nosema cerenae. And other peoples losses I read about on BeeSource seem similar to what I am experiencing.


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## Gypsi

I have a lot of reading to do. Can"t join Charlie on his visit.
Too far from Texas, too much to do here.


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## SERGE

Michael Bush said:


> I use one old brood comb and the rest empty foundationless frames (frames with a comb guide).


Michael, where do you prefer to position the one drawn frame in the bait hive?
Thanks
-Serge


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## Michael Bush

>Michael, where do you prefer to position the one drawn frame in the bait hive?

It doesn't matter.


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