# Just added a frame of eggs/brood, to a queenless hive, now what?



## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

I had another thread started about a cut out I did last week. Checked last night and again today and no sign of a queen after 7 days. Bees were bringing in pollen but no eggs, brood, etc. I grabbed a frame from my over wintered hive that had a small patch of capped brood, uncapped larvae, and eggs in it. I placed it in the center of the cut out hive and put the lid back on. Should I leave it closed and totally undisturbed for a certain period of time, or should I check in few days or a week for signs they are making another queen? 

I had put a feeder on last week but decided to take it off today. It was empty and a lot of the cells had syrup stored in them so I didn't want them to fill it too full. 

I can't remember now, now but ideally how long is it until a queen is hatched and a mating flight is made? I thought I read 21 days or something like that.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

you can pretty much count on 30 days until you see new eggs. You may want to peak in the hive in 3-5 days just to verify that the queen cells are started. And if they look puny, you may want to order a queen and be done with it.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

if the frame had appropriate age larva, count the day you inserted it into the box as " graft day" 

http://www.thebeeyard.org/queen-rearing-calendar/


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

If there were larvae less than three days old on the frame you put in (and it sounds like there probably are, given the age range of egg to open brood you had) then they will start a queen cell right away if there is no queen.

The virgin will emerge, mate and and begin laying in three to six weeks, assuming she does not get eaten or lost while out of the hive on mating flights.

So whether there was already a virgin queen in the swmarm or they started a queen cell, what now is... wait.

If they have a sound qyeen they won't


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

Im going to be out of town for a little over a week, since the rest of my family won't go near the hives without me I won't know anything until I get back. A week from this coming Saturday Ill be able to check for signs of queen cells.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

There is no reason to open the hive for the next 30 days. Sometimes we do more harm than good.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

If one puts eggs in such a hive Do they work on them after they hatch or does it have to be larvae?


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Yes by all means do not open for 30 days. That way if they fail to make a queen from what you gave them there will be plenty of time for a laying worker to set up house and really ruin your day.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

WBVC said:


> If one puts eggs in such a hive Do they work on them after they hatch or does it have to be larvae?


Queens are made from larva 1 to 4 days old with 1 day larva being optimal.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

ruthiesbees said:


> you can pretty much count on 30 days until you see new eggs. You may want to peak in the hive in 3-5 days just to verify that the queen cells are started. And if they look puny, you may want to order a queen and be done with it.


My thought is this is the best advice. Normally I just shake queen less stuff out and let them disperse to other hives. But sometimes I'll try to save something and giving them a frame is a good option. However, I normally consider it a stop gap measure----way better than ending up with laying worker but the odds of a runty queen, etc are fairly high. When I use this approach I always plan to replace the queen down the road

I know it can be problematic for newer beekeepers to throw out bees and queens but the reality is your chance of long term success is dependent on intense selection pressure to maintain the very best colonies. Accepting any old queen is a path to nowhere


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

flyin-lowe said:


> Im going to be out of town for a little over a week, since the rest of my family won't go near the hives without me I won't know anything until I get back. A week from this coming Saturday Ill be able to check for signs of queen cells.



pay attention to that queen rearing calendar, not sure how much a " little over a week" is but that will probably put you right into the delicate stage. If you do open them up at that time to check, do so very slowly take your time and be easy about it, you don't want to jar the larva from it's bed of royal jelly.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

Thanks for all the advice. I didn't realize they would start that quick (I should have know better). I am not actually leaving town until this Sunday. So that would be day four. Would it be better to take a peak this Sunday and then assuming there are queen cells then leave it alone when I get back. Is it more delicate at day four then it would be a week and a half in?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

check it 48 hrs after you installed it, you should see nice cups being drawn if they need a queen.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

I had never heard this before but I stumbled across a video on youtube today. Some old timer claimed that if a hive is queenless the bees will walk out with their wings in a "k" and walk around the entrance for a few seconds before they fly off. If a hive is queen right the bees will take off right as they exit. I looked at a video I took on my phone the other day of this hive and the bees that were coming out did indeed walk around the landing board with their wings open before flying off. Anyone else ever heard this? I thought it was interesting.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Laying workers won't start until after the replacment queen fails to return from mating. That's over 30 days. If they need a queen they will raise it from that frame.



Tenbears said:


> Yes by all means do not open for 30 days. That way if they fail to make a queen from what you gave them there will be plenty of time for a laying worker to set up house and really ruin your day.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

I peaked in the hive yesterday for the first time since adding the frame. I observed at least two queen cells on the bottom of the frame. Once I saw them I placed the frame back in and closed it up. I did not want to disturb them any further.
What is the life span of the bees this time of year. I was thinking last night that I have to plan on about 30 days before the queen is raised, mated, and starts laying. By the time this happens and the new brood starts to hatch will there be much left of the bees that are in the hive now? I did notice the one frame I put in the hive had a lot more brood capped then it did when I added it, so there must have been a decent amount of eggs in the frame when I moved it.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

flyin-lowe said:


> I was thinking last night that I have to plan on about 30 days before the queen is raised, mated, and starts laying. By the time this happens and the new brood starts to hatch will there be much left of the bees that are in the hive now?


This is the huge issue with "Walk-Away Splits". The first cohort of new workers will not appear until Day 50 and only in tiny numbers then. The hive won't be back to full productive growth for months. By the time of the first cohort hatch, the hive will have dwindled to a handful, and the fresh queen will be limited in brood production by bees to cover. 

Walk-away are ***NOT*** Walk-Away. To push the colony to production, you need to regularly supplement the dwindling hive with capped brood and nurse bees in the **very** long inter-regnum. 

I perform walk-away splits in the early spring when robbing is no issue and nutrition is at its peak (in my region). Walk-away in the late spring or summer are huge struggles, as the colony doesn't have the inertia to expand into a dearth.

The value of purchased queen (which cuts weeks off the inter-regnum) is immense. 

Remember, hive growth follows a logistic curve. You need a critical mass of bees to grow, a small hive just sputters along.


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