# Walk away did not go well



## jjhuntsalot (Jul 22, 2013)

Questions?

Where you using nucs 5 frame or three Frame?
Did you use drawn comb?
How did you split did you keep the original hive intact then just take frames out for two splits or just split the hive down the middle?

Just a guess on my part but often times when you split into full size boxes the population density is to low to fend off beetles or moths. Not to mention varroa. 

Did you put a queen in either box or where you planning on raising your own?


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Could they be fly larvae, after the decaying brood?

I noticed little white inchwormy things crawling on my inner cover last summer and thought - oh no, hive beetle larvae. But then I noticed several flies around, I believe the flies were after the pollen patty. I never saw beetles, even scurrying away, and nothing ever came of it, so I'm pretty convinced it was flies.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I had one like this too, made a 3 way split, one with Q + 3 frames, one with Q cell and 3 frames and left the original hive with one capped Q cell.

The odd this is the one with Q cell and 3 frames was the one that swarmed. I am hoping there are enough bees to keep the remaining brood from getting chilled.


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## RLBrooks (Apr 25, 2014)

Flies lay eggs in the dead brood and maggots hatch and eat on the bodies of the dead brood in the cells. Ive seen that happen on a frame in a weak hive.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

If you did a walk away split like your Suppose to and both sides are dead I'd be looking at your VARROA level's . If I do recall you don't do much with your bee's it may be time to do a alcohol wash on your remaining hives. 
Was there webs? Bet it was WAX MOTH. You should get it to your hives more often to make sure things are going right just saying to do a walk away split and to have both sides die then some thing went way wrong.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Did I say both sides are dead? No.
For those that are new to beesource you can check out my 8000+ posts... I will save you some time. I do willy nilly splits as Mark would call them. You can reference Michael Bush's site on walk a way splits, I do not check for anything so the condition of the hive when I split will determine the success. if you split too early you will not have drones and if you split too late you will not have eggs and most likely the hive is in the swarm mode. I believe this was the case with this last failure.

For most beekeepers this is nuts. But for hobbyist that only want two or three hives this is not so nuts. It is mathematical, you only have to replace your winter losses. The more hives you have the easier it is to maintain that number. Three works for me. Two is harder and four or five gets easier.

I am trying to hone in on the right timing. The split has to be late enough that there are DOA areas to mate with the queen but not too late that they have already started backfilling.

A couple of year ago Nabber was hammering me about being unemployed. I have come to the conclusion that it is best to be unemployed if you want to be a beekeeper. So if it should happen to you look at it as a golden opportunity to become a beekeeper.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

GLOCK said:


> If you did a walk away split like your Suppose to and both sides are dead I'd be looking at your VARROA level's .


I will stick my neck out on this one and say this is a worry for commercial operations. As a hobbyist it is of no concern. The ones that die you don't want and the ones that live are the ones you want to propagate. Knock yourself out with your testing and what not. As long as you treat you are on the chemical treadmill beholding to corporate America. Or is that corporate Germany?

Seriously, as a beekeeper you can do the dumbest mistakes known to mankind and if you are persistent (that means not giving up) you can succeed with keeping bees. Only the week at heart fail.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

RLBrooks said:


> Flies lay eggs in the dead brood and maggots hatch and eat on the bodies of the dead brood in the cells. Ive seen that happen on a frame in a weak hive.


The problem with that theory is there wasn't any brood. No webs yet. BTW my chickens massacred the worms. I bet they liked the nectar also. Maybe it was fermented and our eggs are spiked now!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> The split has to be late enough that there are DOA areas to mate with the queen but not too late that they have already started backfilling.


DCA, Brian. Not DOA. DCA, drone congregation area.

Is writing DCA area like saying ATM machine?

Just because I love you.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

lol mark, I was thinking dead on arrival. Just couldn't think of the right buzz word.

Btw, both sides are dead. Chickens area cleaning up the mess as we speak. So now I got another problem, what do I do with all this equipment?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yup, I can see how you would have a problem.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Did I say both sides are dead? No.

Looks like _GLOCK _has _ESP_! :lookout:

> Btw, both sides are dead. 




(for those challenged by _acronyms_, ESP is Extra Sensory Perception)


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

There are bee havers and beekeepers .
Bee havers poop in one hand and wish in the other and see what fill's up first.
And a bee keeper masters[or should I say try]hive management and pest control to have a beehaver around is not good for the over all bee population.
A walk away split can't be any easier if that fails you better check your beekeeping skills .
I mean that in the nicest way possible.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> (for those challenged by _acronyms_, ESP is Extra Sensory Perception)


Then what does ESPN mean?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

GLOCK said:


> There are bee havers and beekeepers .
> Bee havers poop in one hand and wish in the other and see what fill's up first.
> And a bee keeper masters[or should I say try]hive management and pest control to have a beehaver around is not good for the over all bee population.
> A walk away split can't be any easier if that fails you better check your beekeeping skills .
> I mean that in the nicest way possible.


Brian is a pioneer, Glock. Walking his own path. Following his own star.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

In most contexts, ESPN >> Entertainment and Sports Programming Network

but it _could _mean >> Enological Society of the Pacific Northwest


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

GLOCK said:


> A walk away split can't be any easier if that fails you better check your beekeeping skills .


That is an interesting comment Glock. It implies that if you do a textbook split you will never have failure. I don't agree and I don't think I am alone on that thought. I do agree that walk away splits are by far the easiest to do.
Almost all hobbies have a time commitment. You become more proficient at a hobby if you spend more time at it.

The only regret I have is if I could have spent more time with a watchful eye on the hives I might know for sure why one split is booming while the other died out. Both splits were done the same way.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> It implies that if you do a textbook split you will never have failure.


Textbook split? :scratch: Is that what you did? :s



> *A walk away split.* You take a frame of eggs, two frames of emerging brood and two frames of pollen and honey and put them in a 5 frame nuc, shake in some extra nurse bees (making sure you don't get the queen), put the lid on and walk away. Come back in four weeks and see if the queen is laying.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm


Your '_willy nilly_' split method does not seem to involve checking to see if you have eggs.


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## BlueRidgeBee (Jun 12, 2013)

Apparently in referring to Varroa, Acebird said:



Acebird said:


> I will stick my neck out on this one and say this is a worry for commercial operations. As a hobbyist it is of no concern. The ones that die you don't want and the ones that live are the ones you want to propagate. Knock yourself out with your testing and what not. As long as you treat you are on the chemical treadmill beholding to corporate America. Or is that corporate Germany?


Acebird is free to do as he chooses. For me, compared to hives dead and riddled with worms after a basic split, I'd prefer some intervention to that. Luckily there are many options between hard-chems and do-nothing. Since there are lots of brand new beeks reading these posts, here are some links with responses to non-intervention/no-treatment strategies that supposedly lead to survivor bees, but actually don't. 

http://www.honeybeesuite.com/let-the-bees-be-bees-really/
"Being a caretaker means you tend to your charge, look after it, and keep it as comfortable as possible. If it happens to be a horde of honey bees, you make sure it has fresh air, a water source, and a place to forage. You treat foulbrood and, yes, even mites.

The details of how you proceed are up to you. If you prefer not to use chemicals, fine. Great, in fact. But you will need to use another method, be it mechanical separation, brood cycle interruption, or weekly applications of confectioner’s sugar. The choices are yours alone, but they are choices you must make.

Do I think there are exceptions? Sure. I believe in scientific inquiry and research. I believe in carefully designed experimentation with controls, data collection, statistical analysis, and peer review. But if you are not doing research, if are going around half-****ed pretending you are Darwin and preaching “survival of the fittest,” if you are letting your bees die from Varroa mites, you are just plain lazy. How much easier it is to do absolutely nothing and proclaim you are “letting nature take its course.”"

and 
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/

"Unfortunately, there is also a great deal of confusion as to what “treatment free” beekeeping really means. Allow me to use an analogy to explain:

Dairymen prefer to keep Holstein cattle. Holsteins are thin-skinned, thoroughly domesticated cattle selected solely for milk production. Their normal care requires shelter, supplemental feeding, routine vaccinations, and treatment with antibiotics. If a dairyman turned his Holsteins out on the range to fend for themselves without care, and half of them died each year, he would be accused of having committed animal neglect—“the failure to provide the basic care required for an animal to thrive.”

Yet this is exactly what thousands of recreational beekeepers do every year. Under the misconception that they are practicing “treatment free” beekeeping, they are in actuality simply neglecting their domesticated animals. The reason for this is that they are starting with commercial package bees—bees akin to Holstein cattle, in that they are bred for high brood and honey production under standard management practices (notably mite management, but also supplemental feeding or antibiotic treatment if indicated). Most commercial bee stocks should be considered as domesticated animals. There is absolutely no reason to expect that your wishful thinking will miraculously transform your newly-purchased “domesticated” bees into hardy survivor stock able to survive as wild animals without standard care and treatment.

Now don’t get me wrong, I am no more criticizing the commercial queen producers than I would criticize the dedicated breeders of Holstein cattle. The queen breeders are producing the best breeds for beekeepers willing to provide their colonies with the “standard” degree of husbandry (which includes at this time, treatment(s) of some sort for varroa). I have no problem whatsoever with that; but my crystal ball says that someday the market will dwindle for bees that require regular treatment for mites.

Do not delude yourself. Allowing domesticated package colonies to die year after year is not in any way, shape, or form a contribution to the breeding of mite-resistant stocks. There is a vast difference between breeding for survivor stock and simply allowing commercial bees to die from neglect! By introducing commercial bees year after year into an area, and then allowing those package colonies to first produce drones and then to later die from varroa, these well-meaning but misguided beekeepers screw up any evolutionary progress that the local feral populations might be making towards developing natural resistance to varroa. Not only that, but those collapsing “mite bombs” create problems for your neighbors. Referring to yourself as a bee-keeper confers upon you a responsibility to the local beekeeping community. Allowing hives to collapse from AFB or varroa makes you a disease-spreading nuisance!

Update April 15, 2014: I’ve received a great deal of positive feedback from experienced beekeepers who have been frustrated by all the well-intentioned, but sadly misguided, feel-good dreamers who don’t understand the difference between working with nature to promote varroa-resistant bee stocks, versus neglecting livestock that you have taken under your care. I like Rusty Burlew’s blog ““Let the bees be bees” Really?” 

A Solution

Enough scolding. I strongly support those willing to actually practice selective breeding for treatment-free (or minimal treatment) locally-adapted stocks of bees. But let me be frank (try to stop me); if you start your hive with commercial stock, then by all means care for them as domesticated animals! If you want to go treatment free, then start with survivor stock bred to be naturally resistant to mites and viruses, such as VSH, Russian, or locally-adapted ferals. Do not kid yourself into thinking that allowing innocent domesticated bees to die a slow and ugly death is the same thing as breeding for survivor stock—“breeding” instead means the propagation of bees that don’t die [1]—the key word being propagation. And this is a frustration for many well-intentioned beginners—no one in their area is propagating survivor stock for sale. That is why I wrote this article."


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Textbook split? :scratch: Is that what you did?


No that is not what I did. After revisiting Michael's site my splits would be considered even splits without the balancing act that follows. I thought they were "walk away" because you deal the deck and walk away. What Michael describes for a walk away is textbook and not all "textbook" splits will survive. Nothing is 100%.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> my splits would be considered even splits ...

*All *kinds of splits need either a queen or eggs/young larvae to be able to make their own .... including 'even splits' ....



> *The concepts of splits are:*
> 
> You have to make sure that both of the resulting colonies have a queen or the resources to make one (eggs or larvae that just hatched from the egg, drones flying, pollen and honey, plenty of nurse bees).
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Your '_willy nilly_' split method does not seem to involve checking to see if you have eggs.


I may be wrong, but my impression is that Brian doesn't check for anything. Other than the presence of bees in the boxes. I could be wrong, but that's how it looks from here.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> It implies that if you do a textbook split you will never have failure.


That's quite a leap. There are no guarantees. Only greater probability of success.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> No that is not what I did. After revisiting Michael's site my splits would be considered even splits without the balancing act that follows. I thought they were "walk away" because you deal the deck and walk away. What Michael describes for a walk away is textbook and not all "textbook" splits will survive. Nothing is 100%.


We'll have to call them Acebird Splits and recommend that no one wanting success do them.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Or just call them '_Split like *Crazy*_'.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

I just read thru this thread. I think blueridgebee's brief essay was excellent.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

yes.. mr. acebird is free to keep assorted varieties of bugs and their offspring in his boxes .


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

it is wise to carefully sort thru the posts on bee-source, some ideas are a lot better than others.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

mathesonequip said:


> I just read thru this thread. I think blueridgebee's brief essay was excellent.


I somehow missed that soap box so I had to go through this thread to find it.

The world accepts treating old age with a menagerie of pharmaceuticals to temporarily extend the old persons life while polluting the earth, resulting in child abnormalities and sooner or later shorter life spans. The world accepts dousing bees with similar chemicals which results in a weaker bee and stronger mite over the long run. This has nothing to do with splitting so you go your way and I will go mine.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I may be wrong, but my impression is that Brian doesn't check for anything.


Normally Mark, I look for the brood nest and assure that half goes one way and the other. When I split I had too many hives getting out of hand. They were so over packed with bees I could not tell from looking at the bottom of the frames if there was young brood. All I could see is many broken apart cells that were probably drones.

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't suspect a varroa problem from a hive that makes it through one of our winters especially the last one busting out at the seems. But all things are possible.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Only greater probability of success.


No arguement on that. How much success do you need with splits to maintain 3 hives when you have 3 to begin with?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> splits to maintain 3 hives when you have 3


Why split at all? You could either let them swarm or give them more room.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> No arguement on that. How much success do you need with splits to maintain 3 hives when you have 3 to begin with?


As long as you have three live hives the answer would be zero. But you weren't planning on both halves dying, were you? If you have 3 colonies and you want only three colonies, why split at all? As Charlie says above.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Maybe to avoid dealing with that pesky honey stuff?


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## crazylocha (Mar 26, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Or just call them '_Split like *Crazy*_'.


Ummmmmmm
No

Definately

No


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

cg3 said:


> Why split at all? You could either let them swarm or give them more room.


:scratch: There is some logic to it. If you are not treating the sky is falling, right? So you must have more to remain at a certain level. Secondly, splitting is a form of swarm control and varroa suppression. Thirdly, it is a common practice among the experts to requeen every year. Splitting is a way of requeening every other year. The second year queen gives you a bountiful honey hive and as the experts say will not make it through the next winter (because you are not treating).

I love the finger pointers. Where were they when my splits succeeded in past years? Except for beecourious they didn't have much to say. This is one failure folks, whop tee do.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You brought it up, Brian. What did you expect w/ a Thread titled "Walk away did not go well"? People give you all sorts of good/useful advice and you come up w/ excuses and imaginings on why not to do it the way you are advised. Then you take Michael Bush's "Walkaway Split" and bastardize it and then Post a Thread about it not working. So what do you expect?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

some , no a lot of years ago I had a friend who had a favorite saying, "my mind is made up don't confuse me with facts" somehow this has come back to me.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> So what do you expect?


Quite frankly Mark I do not expect anything, I don't shade the results of my activities and I publish the results to beesource as accurately as I can. What do you expect Mark? Do you expect I will quit?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

No, really. I don't get it at all. You've been at this as long as I have. You've obviously spent more time on BS, where a totally green newbee could pick up everything they need to know. You've had bees survive, treatment free, for quite a while but are afraid they'll drop dead without warning. You want to split, but don't care enough to spend the extra minute or two to be sure that both parts had the resources to make it. 
Or, maybe, you're just trolling us.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

cg3 said:


> You want to split, but don't care enough to spend the extra minute or two to be sure that both parts had the resources to make it.


This is the fallacy. It is not an extra minute or two it is an extra hour or two per hive. I do not subscribe to the management of going into a hive every week and that surely is not a minute or two. Anyone with two or three years of experience with Italian bees knows that if you do not go in on a regular basis the bees will lock the frames up tighter than a drum. You might even break or damage frames trying to get them out. You certainly will agitate the bees pulling every frame. I choose not to do that. You don't have to choose what I choose. Don't try to make me choose what you choose. Beekeeping is not my life it never will be but it is such an easy thing to have bees. A cave man can do it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Quite frankly Mark I do not expect anything, I don't shade the results of my activities and I publish the results to beesource as accurately as I can. What do you expect Mark? Do you expect I will quit?


No, I don't expect you to quit. I'm sure there is some value in your sharing, if only as a caution to others on what not to do. I just don't know why you decry "the finger pointers"?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> This is the fallacy. It is not an extra minute or two it is an extra hour or two per hive. I do not subscribe to the management of going into a hive every week and that surely is not a minute or two. Anyone with two or three years of experience with Italian bees knows that if you do not go in on a regular basis the bees will lock the frames up tighter than a drum. You might even break or damage frames trying to get them out. You certainly will agitate the bees pulling every frame. I choose not to do that. You don't have to choose what I choose. Don't try to make me choose what you choose. Beekeeping is not my life it never will be but it is such an easy thing to have bees. A cave man can do it.


I have been through all of my hives this past week pulling frames to check to see how well or whether the queen is doing her job. Didn't agitate any bees or break any frames.

I don't see why you think you would need an hour to check some frames in each box to see if each box has what it needs to make a queen. It doesn't. But if it does you, I'd have to see it to see why.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> One side was dead and the other side doesn't look strong.





Acebird said:


> A cave man can do it.


Should have had him help.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

good one charlie


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Quite frankly Mark I do not expect anything, ...


Then why did you split at all? Certainly you must have had some expectation of the possibility of two more colonies, didn't you? Or did you expect them not to go well?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

*Walk away even did not go well*



Acebird said:


> ... After revisiting Michael's site my splits would be considered even splits ...


 I think, there is inconsistency in naming. Rusty from Beesuite described "walk away split" as "even split" - split all resources equally and "walk away" 
http://www.honeybeesuite.com/how-to-make-a-walkaway-split/
I tried "walk away even split" a few times without great success. In one occasion, bees did not want to equlibrate and eventually moved in the mother-hive  Another time, bees (and resources) were split evenly, but mother hive lost its queen and another one did not make the queen  mother-hive failed to create a new queen from new eggs and was combined with my own small swarm. Another hive made a new queen from new portion of eggs. All hives are doing very well now. I attribute the problem to the birds, who is dinning at my hives non-stop this year! What was happened with the queen from the mother-hive is a mystery to me. My conclusion is that on such small territory as mine and with such limited numbers of hives, I can not master "walk away even split"  From another hand I am lucky with swarms - all my swarms were hived and did great. They have new happy owners now. My bees are healthy by my criteria and do not require the treatment. So far, we have no issues. I used to count varroa, but stop doing so this year, because bees are doing great with varroa amount they have. I am a hobbyist and practice minimal interference in beehive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> One of my splits did not go well this year. The hives got over crowded this year before I split and I believe they were already into swarm prep. One side was dead and the other side doesn't look strong. The dead side was full of worms, not sure if they are wax moth or hive beetle. They are small so I am thinking wax moth. Fingers crossed on the other split but I might be too late on adding supers for that one too.


Question. Why did you Post this?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I do not check for anything
> 
> so the condition of the hive when I split will determine the success. if you split too early you will not have drones and if you split too late you will not have eggs and most likely the hive is in the swarm mode. I believe this was the case with this last failure.


"I do not check for anything ..." Then that's most likely what you are going to get. You get out that which you put in. If you don't look for what you need to have a successful split why expect a successful split. And don't tell me you didn't expect anything. That's bogus. Otherwise why do anything?

"if you split too early you will not have drones" If you split in May there are plenty of drones. If you looked in your hives and saw capped drone cells there are plenty of drones. But you have to look. You have to manipulate frames.

"and if you split too late you will not have eggs" Huh? When is that? November? If you have no eggs you have no queen. If you have no eggs it doesn't matter what time of year it is you have other problems. Unless the colony is on the verge of swarming. In which case there are swarm cells in the hive you are about to split and that should work just fine.

Part of the problem the way I see it, besides you not looking, not working your hive w/ intent, is that you think you can split a hive in two and have a chance of having two hives. That's wrong headed to begin with. You should not be splitting your hive, you should be splitting your colony. As we have talked about in the past, there is a difference between a colony of bees and the hive they occupy. 

If you split a two story hive into two equal parts all of the brood could easily be in one box. Whereas, if you equalize the colony into the two boxes which make up your hive, parsing the brood equally between the two boxes, then you have split the colony and have a chance of ending up w/ two colonies. If that is your intent.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Otherwise why do anything?


You keep asking this and I already explained why? Apparently you don't like my answer.



> "and if you split too late you will not have eggs" Huh? When is that? November? If you have no eggs you have no queen. If you have no eggs it doesn't matter what time of year it is you have other problems. Unless the colony is on the verge of swarming.


Now you are answering your own questions.


> In which case there are swarm cells in the hive you are about to split and that should work just fine.


Maybe yes and maybe no. The queen cells have to go in the side that is queenless and they must not be damaged when placing boxes on top of each other. Swarm cell are likely to get damaged because the boxes are not placed on top of the box they came from.



> Part of the problem the way I see it, besides you not looking, not working your hive w/ intent, is that you think you can split a hive in two and have a chance of having two hives.


I have done this more than once with good success.


> If you split a two story hive into two equal parts all of the brood could easily be in one box.


It is not two boxes it is four and sometimes five. An overwintered colony that expands into 4 medium boxes will have brood and eggs in at least two boxes sometimes three. I have said this before, as with all things beekeeping timing is everything. I did not need more hives. My intent was to curb swarming and give the extras away.

Mark, What is wrong headed to begin with is running all medium equipment. Myself and others like it even though it doesn't seem right to you.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Mark, What is wrong headed to begin with is running all medium equipment. Myself and others like it even though it doesn't seem right to you.


Please don't put words in my mouth. I have no problem w/ beekeepers who keep bees in hives made up of all medium supers. Not the way I do it, but not a problem for me if you or anyone else does. I don't have any problems w/ TBH beekeeping either. Or skep beekeeping or Warre. I don't do it myself, but I don't do a lot of things. Some folks carry AK147s, or whatever they're called, to Arby's to get lunch. I don't and don't really understand why they do, but, as long as they behave themselves civilly I have no problem w/ that. So don't peg me as being against something unless I say so myself. And then be ready for me to change my mind about something I say I don't like.

I bet u like mediums because they are easier on your back when you have to lift them. Right?

By the way, it doesn't matter how many boxes your hive is, if you don't look on it as splitting the colony, only splitting the hive, the boxes, that is wrong headed. But, even doing something w/ bees in a wrong headed manner will result in success every now and then, despite one's efforts.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I bet u like mediums because they are easier on your back when you have to lift them. Right?


Yes, and I like them because they have a distinct advantage when splitting by the box. I DO NOT recommend splitting by the box if you are using deep brood boxes. I know what you are saying when you say split the hive vs. split the colony. If I am going to split my goal is to split the colony not the hive. It just doesn't always work but it works better than you think. Because your thinking is with deep boxes.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Acebird said:


> This is the fallacy. It is not an extra minute or two it is an extra hour or two per hive. I do not subscribe to the management of going into a hive every week and that surely is not a minute or two.


Extra hour or two per hive really ?:scratch:I'll Bet anyone I could do a walk away in less then 5 min.
And have 2 hives with queens in 30 days.
It's all about getting a good honey crop and GOOD hive management so you have healthy bee's .
Why have bee's if your just letting them set there ? How much honey are you harvesting?
And why would you give advice with your cave man beekeeping ways.
I must say your threads are always entertaining


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Well, kids. What have we learned today?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

GLOCK said:


> I must say your threads are always entertaining


In a head banging sort of way, Glock? :lookout:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cg3 said:


> Well, kids. What have we learned today?


We are here to learn? Oh my.

I gotta split. Not my bees, going to SC again. So I will see y'all in a day or two. Carry on.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

cg3 said:


> Well, kids. What have we learned today?





Acebird said:


> It just doesn't always work but it works better than you think.


Usually, Russian Roulette come out in your favor?


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

cg3 said:


> Well, kids. What have we learned today?



I think we learned that being treatment-free does not equate to neglectful and ignorant bee having. Randy Oliver's excellent article, that blueridgebee posted, points this out well to all but those who imagine they know better.

I think we learned that being treatment-free requires a greater degree of awareness to a hive's condition and some here can't be bothered with being aware of the condition of their hives.

I think we learned that there are those whose mismanagement will kill bees, which they chalk up to the bees being unfit to live.

I think we learned that extreme verbosity does not trump knowledge.

Wayne


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

cg3 said:


> Usually, Russian Roulette come out in your favor?


Depends on the numbers ... 
If you were to play Russian Roulette with 7 people using a six shooter and you were the first to pull the trigger the numbers are good for you.

If you split a hive with 30,000 bees at the right time and you use some logic to your splitting your odds are pretty good. The failures are more to do with getting the virgin queen mated and back safe. Which are the same for any split making their own queen no matter how you do it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> If you split a hive with 30,000 bees at the right time and you use some logic to your splitting your odds are pretty good. The failures are more to do with getting the virgin queen mated and back safe. 

So ensuring there are eggs/young larva in each split does _nothing _to increase the odds of that split successfully raising a queen compared to a 'willy nilly' split of not even looking at the brood frames? :scratch: Really?

If the split bees have no eggs to raise a queen there is no point worrying about _mating success _rates!


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Odds are infinitely better if you have eggs in both halves.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Depends on the numbers ...
> If you were to play Russian Roulette with 7 people using a six shooter and you were the first to pull the trigger the numbers are good for you.


It doesn't matter if you are the *first *person out of a group of 7 people to play Russian Roulette, or the _*7th *_person. Each 'player' spins the barrel as part of their turn, so the odds of the bullet firing are exactly the same each time.

The 'numbers' in Russian Roulette are _never _'good for you' unless you are a fool! :no:

:ws:



If you are splitting bees, there is no hard and fast way to calculate the likelihood of success, but certainly the beekeeper can improve the odds by examining brood frames and making appropriate decisions.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Which are the same for any split making their own queen no matter how you do it.


Not if you do it intelligently, w/ forethought, knowledge, intent, and good observation. Your chances would markedly increased.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> It doesn't matter if you are the *first *person out of a group of 7 people to play Russian Roulette, or the _*7th *_person. Each 'player' spins the barrel as part of their turn, so the odds of the bullet firing are exactly the same each time.
> 
> The 'numbers' in Russian Roulette are _never _'good for you' unless you are a fool! :no:
> 
> ...


Sorry, Brian. But what went through my mind when I read what you wrote about Russian Roulette was that maybe you knew as much about Russian Roulette as you do about making a successful split. But, then I thought to myself, "That wouldn't be a nice thing to say out loud."

(is Russian Roulette a culturally insensitive term? hmmm.)


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well I never played the game and it would make a difference if the gun was pointed at someone else. Be that as it may if it was the traditional game of pointing it at oneself and there were six people in front of you, you stand a better chance of survival being the seventh than the first.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do you understand probability, Brian? Your chances are not good at all starting off w/ the fact that you are playing *​RUSSIAN ROULETTE!!*


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

He's referring to the '_willy nilly_' version of Russian Roulette! 


:digging:


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

cg3 said:


> Well, kids. What have we learned today?


In seas of life some people are the hulks stuck fast on the reefs. These moldering hulks are there to warn you of where obstacles to be avoided are, nothing more. 

Sometimes though there's a self important little captain still occupying said hulk. Ironically, as you sail by he'll give you "advice" on how to correctly captain your ship, with no regard of his own visibly obvious ignorance. If he asks for advice, he doesn't really want it and won't learn from it. Say nothing but wave politely as you sail on by.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you understand probability, Brian? Your chances are not good at all starting off w/ the fact that you are playing *​RUSSIAN ROULETTE!!*


I don't play russian roulette. I don't see anything about keeping bees that has any correlation what so ever to russian roulette. That was someone else's idea.



> Do you understand probability,


I sure do. What is the probability that a colony will multiply all on its own with out any beekeeper help?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

:applause:


D Coates said:


> In seas of life some people are the hulks stuck fast on the reefs. These moldering hulks are there to warn you of where obstacles to be avoided are, nothing more.
> 
> Sometimes though there's a self important little captain still occupying said hulk. Ironically, as you sail by he'll give you "advice" on how to correctly captain your ship, with no regard of his own visibly obvious ignorance. If he asks for advice, he doesn't really want it and won't learn from it. Say nothing but wave politely as you sail on by.


:applause: :thumbsup:

How many of the rest of you think that Brian is having fun w/ us? Doing what he does here and laughing at us responding.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

probably yes, but it is hard to tell for sure.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> you stand a better chance of survival being the seventh than the first.


If he's not trolling us, I want to play poker with him.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I don't play russian roulette.


I don't play football, baseball, or basketball but I know how. I bet you basically know how roulette works too.


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## Bee de la Prairie (May 20, 2014)

Acebird said:


> The dead side was full of worms, not sure if they are wax moth or hive beetle. They are small so I am thinking wax moth.


I'm a third year newbie so i will not pretend to know much, but I thought the difference between SHB larva and wax moth larva was pretty evident. SHB larva look like maggots and wax moth larva are larger with a redish brown head. Am I wrong?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

There are similarities ...


> *May be Confused with the Following SHB Look-a-Likes*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Extra legs? They both have six. That's what insects have, six legs. Then, one becomes a beetle and the other a moth.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The larvae was about 1/4 in long and too small to see legs.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Extra legs? They both have six. That's what insects have, six legs.


I don't pretend to be an expert here, but I believe there may be a 'leg count' distinction between adult insects and their larva. At least some insect larva have _more _than six legs, but the extra legs are on the abdomen instead of the thorax.










Graphic linked from this University of Kentucky page, which also has more info: http://www2.ca.uky.edu/entomology/entfacts/ef017.asp


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Wow! What a long and winding thread. 

Anyhow......to get back on topic. Here is a possibility that has not been considered and something "outside the box".

A few years ago, a VERY well known and experienced beekeeper came to my apiary to show me how to do splits. He inspected all of the hives and they were found to be in very good health and very vigorous. 

We split 10 hives. Each parent hive remained in the original location but all of the splits were moved about 100 yards away. Within 5 days ALL of the splits were dead but all of the parent hives were doing well. We could not figure out what happened at first. I spoke with Dann Purvis who at the time was located close to me in TN and he pointed out the substantial possibility that since we moved all of the splits, they reoriented and likely found something that was toxic to them and it killed them whereas the parent hives that remained in place continued to forage in places they were familiar with. 

Short of sending bee samples off to Beltville, MD there was not way to be certain but this is what I think happened. As a result, any hive I split; the split hive remains next to the parent hive. Since doing this, I have not lost any hives in this fashion. I prefer to move hives during the Winter during cold snaps when the bees have been cooped up in the hive for at least 10 days. They are not capable of remembering their area orientation for that long and reorient upon leaving the hive for a purging flight when the weather has warmed up. Granted this may not be practical in very warm climates but when I move hives in this fashion very few bees return to the old location. 

I hope this adds something to think about to the conversation.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

In the case of my splits the moves were short 6-10 ft away from original position. Oh, another thing I did was rotate the entrances about 80 degrees (more south and less east). Doubtful it was poisoning in this case.


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