# Ccd



## Kieck

Just like the argument against pesticides causing CCD, why didn't this appear years ago? Cell phones (and any radiation they produce) didn't just appear on the market last year.


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## forestbee

So let me see if I got this right, London's biggest beekeepers who use to have 40 hives now has 7 ? If this to be the case so I would say that this guy’s bees already disappeared long time ago 


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## simplyhoney

*shoot'n at the moon*

Can you believe the theories? I would be much more likely to blame solar storms, or magnetic poles of the earth changing before I believe the cell phone theory. Speaking of which has anyone here done any research on the changing of magnetic North?
Look at all of the enviromental factors that have drastically changed that bees may be atuned to and human are not.


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## zuckerman

howdy,
well it could be a plateau was needed before the effects began to show. what I mean is there has to be a certain amount of radio energy in the cell phone frequencies, and then a certain length of time before the effect is seen by the bees, and then seen by us. it's not like a switch is thrown and we see results. I am only pointing out a possibility... one it seems, of many...


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## Kieck

Keep in mind that individual bees do not live a particularly long time. Only the lifetime of an individual bee would be available for that accumulation to occur, in the case of bees and CCD. In other words that radiation could only accumulate for a few weeks to a few months in any given bee.

So, were there changes in the cell phone industry during the last part of summer 2006? Otherwise, why wouldn't those effects show up early in 2006, or late in 2005, or . . . any time earlier? I can see the difference between 2006 and 1980, for example, but not between 2006 and 2005.

And what about those "outbreaks" of something similar to CCD in the 1970s and 1960s and earlier?


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## forestbee

zuckerman said:


> howdy,
> well it could be a plateau was needed before the effects began to show. what I mean is there has to be a certain amount of radio energy in the cell phone frequencies, and then a certain length of time before the effect is seen by the bees,.


Umm I don't know, considering the bee life time I don't think this theory may be true, unless this radiation accumulation occurs in the comb and this can be tested easily

I agree with concept of not eliminating any theory, but for this particular theory I think there are many other things needed to be looked at before turning off our cell phones, however it is nice to see some ideas are out of the ordinary because may be the root cause is really unusual.


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## zuckerman

Howdy, umm, it may be that radio noise is a possible cause, and we know that the amount of radio energy has been going up over the years (in a particular frequency), if there is a threshold that affects bees, it may have been breached. it's not that there is an accumulation in the bees, but that there is an accumulation in their enviroment


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## George Fergusson

Kieck said:


> Just like the argument against pesticides causing CCD, why didn't this appear years ago?


Uh, according to the experts, it did appear years ago, numerous times over the years, with identical or virtually identical symptoms as we're seeing this time around. I don't think this necessarily rules pesticides in or out.

Mind you I'm not making a case for cellphones causing CCD though I would support legislation making it illegal for bees to use cell phones while foraging. People shouldn't use them when they drive, bees shouldn't use them when they fly.


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## Kieck

But it should (it does in my mind, anyway) rule out any specific pesticides or groups of pesticides (such as neonicotinoids) that were not around when CCD, or something similar, appeared years ago.

I think too many beekeepers are too eager to pinpoint a single, simple cause for a complex problem.


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## forestbee

zuckerman said:


> Howdy, umm, it may be that radio noise is a possible cause, and we know that the amount of radio energy has been going up over the years (in a particular frequency), if there is a threshold that affects bees, it may have been breached. it's not that there is an accumulation in the bees, but that there is an accumulation in their enviroment


So why CCD happened in one yard to some but not to all of the hives? also if this is the case we would see a relation between reported CCD cases and geographic location "e.g. urban vs. countryside" based on the amount of cell phone users/towers there.

Also we would seen the CCD in Europe well before in the US not the other way around.


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## forestbee

George Fergusson said:


> Mind you I'm not making a case for cellphones causing CCD though I would support legislation making it illegal for bees to use cell phones while foraging.


Well this will leave a loophole for the guard bees to use cell phones to warn other bees and hives of the beekeepers arrival, I would rather see it illegal for the bees to use Cell phones all together.


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## George Fergusson

Kieck said:


> But it should (it does in my mind, anyway) rule out any specific pesticides or groups of pesticides (such as neonicotinoids) that were not around when CCD, or something similar, appeared years ago.


Pesticides have been killing bees as long as there have been pesticides. Some are better at it than others. Nothing says it couldn't have been one pesticide 30 years ago and a different one today causing essentially the same situation. As above, I'm not suggesting CCD is caused by pesticides, just that the logic used to discriminate between this possible cause and that possible cause needs to be carefully controlled.



> I think too many beekeepers are too eager to pinpoint a single, simple cause for a complex problem.


I agree.

I generally ought to stay out of discussions like this, especially those involving pesticides because I'm not playing with a full deck- I don't come at it with a rational, scientific mind set. I come at it like an irrational hysterical old woman.



> Well this will leave a loophole for the guard bees to use cell phones to warn other bees and hives of the beekeepers arrival, I would rather see it illegal for the bees to use Cell phones all together.


Exactly forestbee! Exactly! And we don't want them to have computers or other weapons of mass destruction.


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## forestbee

Kieck said:


> But it should (it does in my mind, anyway) rule out any specific pesticides or groups of pesticides (such as neonicotinoids) that were not around when CCD, or something similar, appeared years ago.


That is right but given we are totally sure that the CCD we see now is the same CCD happened back then, even if it is the same it might be due some effects on the bees caused by something and may be that effect can be happened due to completely different causes, this is why I think nothing should be ruled out.



Kieck said:


> I think too many beekeepers are too eager to pinpoint a single, simple cause for a complex problem.


I agree with you 100%.


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## Kieck

Sure, George, but I've seen pesticide kills (even from neonicotinoids), and the pesticide kills that I've seen don't match the descriptions of CCD that I've read.

I'll confess that I have yet to see a hive killed by what even appears to be CCD.



> As above, I'm not suggesting CCD is caused by pesticides, just that the logic used to discriminate between this possible cause and that possible cause needs to be carefully controlled. -George Fergusson


Fair enough. Let's start with a few.

1) Neonicotinoids. They weren't around back in the 1960s or 1970s. They've been used in roughly the same amounts, in the same formuations, for that last five to six years. Careful logic: neonicotinoids are very, very unlikely to the cause of CCD.

2) Other insecticides. I don't know of any chemicals that were recently introduced and in widespread use that could cause CCD. At the same time, most of the specific chemicals weren't on the market the "last times" CCD or something like it appeared.

3) GM crops weren't on the market in the 1960s or 70s. The amount of GM crops grown has increased steadily, but the acreage grown in GM crops hasn't changed much in the last three to four years. IF (and it's a mighty big IF, to my thinking) GM crops are responsible for CCD, it will show up again this year, bigger than last year even. And the year after that, and the year after that.

Of course, just because CCD might appear again this year doesn't mean that GM crops are the culprit. It could be something else.

4) Cell phone radiation (which isn't all that different from any of the other radio-wave radiation that's out there), magnetic line intersections, etc. What changed? Were they around the last times such symptoms appeared in bees?

Maybe we should consider ethanol as a cause for CCD. After all, just recently all gasoline has ethanol added to it as an oxygenator in the U.S. It even coincides with the most recent onset of CCD. And the production and consumption of ethanol has increased greater in the last year or two.

Seriously, though, I still think CCD is a combination of too many factors to single out just one. If it was really so simple, the scientists researching it should have come up with an explanation long ago.


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## Kieck

> That is right but given we are totally sure that the CCD we see now is the same CCD happened back then, even if it is the same it might be due some effects on the bees caused by something and may be that effect can be happened due to completely different causes, this is why I think nothing should be ruled out. -forestbee


I'm not poking fun at you, honestly, but all I keep thinking when I read responses like this is, "Should we blame all lethal traumatic accidents among humans on automobiles?" I mean, the symptoms are similar (someone dies of massive, traumatic injuries), and automobiles can certainly play a role in traumatic accidents, so should we revise history and claim that people in the middle ages who died of traumatic accidents were killed by automobiles?


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## forestbee

I think I didn’t explain it well, so actually your example is what I meant to say, People died of traumatic accidents back in the middle ages and people die of traumatic accidents may have the same reason of death but completely different set of events which led to these reasons.

So the CCD in the 60’s may be due to the same reason for the CCD we see today but the root cause is different, so may be the root cause now is the neonicotinoids but back in the 60’s was some other chemicals.

I am not saying it is the neonicotinoids or even I think it is, I am just saying that at this time and with the amount of information we currently know “or we don’t know” about this CCD I don’t think anything should be off the table, whatever it is Cell Phones or neonicotinoids.


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## forestbee

Kieck said:


> Seriously, though, I still think CCD is a combination of too many factors to single out just one. If it was really so simple, the scientists researching it should have come up with an explanation long ago.


Personally this is what I think, and that is fine at least for us here trying to discuss this issue and exchange opinions, but I hoped that we got more from the scientists, because if this thing continue year over year, well “too many factors" will not be a accepted as an answer and if it will still be the answer so what is the solution??


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## Kieck

Again, I rule out pesticides as the cause for CCD, in part because I've seen numerous examples of pesticide kills. None of them matched the descriptions of CCD.

Also, the use of pesticides in general hasn't changed significantly from year to year. The use in 2005 was almost exactly the same as the use in 2006. Where was CCD in 2005? Where was it in 2004? If we look at different chemicals as the cause, going back into at least the 1960s, why haven't we seen it every year?

I believe *if* we start seeing CCD year-after-year, scientists will pinpoint the cause or causes. If CCD is an annual, recurring event, even if it's caused by a vast number of factors working in concert, scientists will begin isolating those factors.

I also believe that we will probably not see CCD this year, or next year, or probably the year after that, the furor will die down, and when CCD rears its ugly head five years or 10 years or whenever in the future, beekeepers will react the same way we are right now.

As far as a "solution" goes, first we need to figure out what CCD is. Is CCD the result of a pathogen or pathogens (like some form of Aspergillus, or a different form of Nosema, or a virus or viruses)? Is it malnutrition? Is it some form of poisoning? Most importantly, is it contagious?

Then, we can try to develop a strategy to avoid or reduce CCD outbreaks. Let's just say, hypothetically, that CCD is caused by a combination of a bacterium, a virus, malnutrion from limited pollen sources, and an unknown genetic factor. Antibiotics can be used to reduce bacterial infections. Perhaps malnutrition could be overcome by not using bees for pollination in years with limited resources because of drought, or supplemental feeding could expand the nutritional diversity. Viruses are difficult to combat, but the spread could be reduced perhaps by lowering the concentrations of hives in yards. Selective breeding could reduce the impact of the genetic factor. Even controlling a single factor of the group could be enough to tip the balance toward survival for hives.


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## Jim Fischer

Nice to see that a few folks have slogged through the same
process of elimination I did over here.

Not to say that logical deductions alone make any of us right,
but it does rule out a number of things as so highly unlikely as
to be impossible.


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## Kieck

I'm with you on this one, Jim. Some of these accusations seem wildly illogical to me.

Of course, if I were among the scientists actively researching CCD, I would check the possibilities of even some of these wildly-illogical explanations. Like you've pointed out, detecting chemical residues in hives is fairly simple with modern methods, and the researchers seem to have checked for various pesticides or other contaminants. I give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that if such things enter my mind, the same ideas are likely to occur to the researchers, and they're likely to have already checked for them.

In my opinion, continuing to insist that pesticides may be responsible for CCD is an insult to the teams researching CCD. Neonicotinoids have come up in many circles; if the researchers have checked for neonicotinoids and found nothing, it's insulting to keep harping about neonicotinoids. If the researchers haven't checked for neonicotinoid contamination, they deserve the insult. I have to believe that they're aware of it, though, and have already examined the possibility.


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## amandrea

*Strange oservation may be the key*

I understand that when a colony dies due to CCD it is about three days before hive robbing begins. This suggests to me the presence of a toxin that can be aired out of the hive once the bees are gone. This must mean that the bees presence somehow causes the toxin to remain at toxic levels. This could be body heat drawing the toxins out of something such as the wax.
For lack of any better advice I will make certain there is good ventalation and will use starter strips for as much first use wax as possible.


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## Keith Benson

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/bee/-/pv_design_details/pg_18/id_19017523/opt_/fpt_/c_360/

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/bee/-/pv_design_details/pg_21/id_18961990/opt_/fpt_/c_360/



Keith


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## wbell

Has anyone considered the possibility that the " Rapture" has begun and we have been left behind? Just a thought.


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## notaclue

Well I noticed the report read that cell phones close to the hives...I know that when there is an incoming call the electro-magnetic field generated is enough to disrupt my monitor and television, but only if it is within six inches of each. Since I never carry the phone to the hives I don't know. It may be interesting to find out if and incoming call would disrupt the enroute foragers and orientation flyers or even the hive itself. 

I am curios what periodically causes this...is it chemical build up, I haven't seen anything yet if it affects untreated hives, too much stress, why affecting this yard but not that.

A fellow older beek had a colony that met the CCD earmarks, after the fact, and had no activity for almost three weeks. Found what looked like a swarm had taken up residence. No wax moth or SHB or robbing signs also no ****roaches, ants or flys in the hive. 

Don't know if this means anything...just my opinion.


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## Robert Brenchley

I've got my own theories about the guy in London; a lot of people around here have had problems recently because of the arrival of resistant mites; it could very easily have been the same there. Le's not assume that just because one problem is getting all the publicity right now, it's always the one thing.


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## HoneyBeeGood

*Economist write-up link*

<http://www.economist.com/science/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=9070846>

Hi guys Stuck to the Floor here in SW England,

Above link is to what looks like info on what ever it was Jim(?) I think was invited to sit in on the 23-24.

Will likely cross post to other threads on CCD, appologies now.

Past Wk end a BIBBA AGM lecturer Dr Steve Martin convinced me that IT is going to be any and all of the 14 viruses known to be carried by Bees. Only 2 of which have been studied! Varroa is the vector.

We have blown up their immune system, with human explotation. 

IMO You can not fool Mother Nature.
Same for humans and chemicals, just look around you. No PR for human problems there is no cash in... now is there............

HoneyBEEGood
Badminton
S Glos BBKA


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## HoneyBeeGood

*Good (?) link Economist Write up*

http://www.economist.com/science/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=9070846


Sorry the brackets were stuck on, :^)
hope this one links

Stuck to the Floor


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## clintonbemrose

I just received this link on CCD
http://www.latimes.com/news/la-sci-bees26apr26,0,7437491.story
Clint


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## Fusion_power

It is hitting the news regularly now. We have a doomsday news/media group with a bit of the chicken little syndrome. The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070502/ap_on_sc/honeybee_die_off

There is definitely a problem. The question is, just how big is the problem?

Darrel Jones


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## bjerm2

Whatever the problem is I hope they find it soon. I seem to be having similar problems for the past 5 years. Build up to 30 hives by fall. Take care of them ,feed them and make sure everything is ok. Come spring back down to 4-8 hives just to build them up again. I have been trying to avoid chemicals and just use screen bottom boards with use of Terramycin patties. The hives that die out are full of brood and food. Just a few bees left with possibly the queen. I have wondered if there might be to much inbreeding with the bees and it has finally come to a head. I have kept bees for over 30 years and this is just something that has baffled me to no end. I do not have a cell phone so my bees 'should' not be affected but who knows. Just hope they find out soon what is doing all this to the little ladies. I have kept SMR, Russian, New World and there seems to be no pattern as to which ones live or die. Very frustrating if your trying to breed a bee for your area.
Dan


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## Kieck

Splitting four to eight hives each year to get 30 hives by fall? Have you tried less-aggressive splitting? Maybe, starting with eight hives and having 16 by fall?


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## bjerm2

I have tried less aggressively but the outcome is the same. I do not harvest the honey but do feed the bees heavily to build them up. They go into winter with 150 lbs or so of honey/sugar syrup. These splits are done early in the year. I keep a close eye on them. Freeze my drone comb for mite control. What I find interesting is that some of hives that survive are the ones that were chopped up into small nucs and allowed to build up over the summer. I'm really at a loss as to why I'm having problems. 'Back in the old days', 30 years ago, I did that and they all survived. I think we beekeepers and bees are overwhelmed with all the stresses out there in the environment.
Dan


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## Jim Fischer

Nosema Ceranae can't be the problem.

You see, the little paramecium are hard to tell apart, and we have
a fairly firm statement from Eric Mussen (Extension guy in CA) that
he saw what he classified as Nosema Ceranae in the midguts of bees
in CA back in the 90s. He shrugged off the find as "impossible to
confirm", as he lacked the sort of DNA gear needed to confirm or
refute his visual ID. The two look different, but it takes a very good
eye and lots of experience to differ between the two.

Going back through the "library" of samples kept by various sites,
a preliminary statement was made at the USDA CCD meeting that
the bulk of nosema that we have had in the USA *WAS* Nosema 
Ceranae (or a variant thereof) for at least the past few years. 

In "pedigree" form, Nosema Ceranae is said to be able to kill off
a colony within days. Nosema Apis rarely killed hives, if ever.
Clearly, there has been some sort of "genetic drift" in regard to
the USA version of Nosema Ceranae, as we don't have hives dying 
from nosema, and the CCD hives don't show any consistent pattern 
of having any form of nosema.

*Conclusion:* Nosema Ceranae is NOT the cause of CCD, nor is the
USA version as nasty as the Asian version. Another dead end,
another red herring. "Bad scientist, no pizza." "Bad reporter, no donut!"

And remember, bees using cellphones would not be the disaster everyone
expects, as each and every one of their calls would be covered under
flat-rate "friends and family" plans.


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## bjerm2

Thanks Jim for the update. The e-mails I have been getting from the various labs sum up to the same conclusion. No one at this time knows what is causing this problem. There seem to be numerous avenues and no one can pin point to one malady. They did however noticed thru dissection that some of the bees seem to have lesions in their gut, Almost as if they had some kind of cancer. Is this a cause (???), right now as I said, I'm at a loss as to what is going on. I know I'm pushing my bees by spliting them up the way I do, but I still think that the losses should not be that great. I have asked the lab down in Louisiana if this might be a genetic problem, that is to much inter breeding. Is it a DNA problem also? As of today (5-4-07) I have not been given an answer to that question and really don't expect one. I know they are looking into that from articles I have read. Hopefully they will have an answer soon. Just another question did the mite cause the bees to get a virus that now is causing them to abscond the hives? 
There are many questions and for now very few answers.
Dan


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## R.L. Bee

*N.Ceranae*

I have very limited experiance with bees but the one thing that I have learned in the past year is to never say never. As Diana Cox -Foster of Penn state Quated in the L.A. times last week N. Ceranae is one of many pathogens in bees By itself it is probably not the culprit but it may be one of the key players.Could it not have mixed with anouther of the many viriouses in bees to have formed the killer.As with the flu bug in humans it would have taken a while to mix an mutate.The army lab that did the test that I read about could only identify the known DNA that was in there data base.So if N.Ceranae had changed, the test would have only picked up the parent DNA. So this is my theary I will not stand by any thing that I said as fact .But it does sound good ,Right?


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