# Oxalic Acid Vaporizer Results - Users post here!



## snl

Hopefully we can convert some of the TF folks to OAV and give some doubters of OAV a "nudge" to convert.

From Mountain Bee:

Just a update. Did my first OA treatment late yesterday evening,it hasn't been 24hrs yet and there is hundreds of dead mites on the sticky boards (to many to count) of the hives that I treated. Bees look to be in good shape and mites are dead,so far appears to be the best treatment I have come across but time will tell. Hopefully this will decrease some of my winter losses. Thanks again.


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## crofter

I could say "works for me". Seriously though, I am probably in quite a unique situation by being very isolated from any kept bees and there are no ferals here. I have been doing one OA vaporization spring and fall for the last two years and am finding zero mites on drone frames and burr comb that I pull larvae from. 100% survival last two winters with 3 and 8 hives respectively. I dont think anything even comes close to matching oxalic acid on a cost per treatment basis or ease of application.


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## Robbin

Doubt this thread will have much effect on the TF guys but you can count me in the works for me group. I tried TF, then tried Fogging with FGMO and sugar dusting, then as a last resort applied chemical strips. Then, finally tried OAV. Seeing the 24 hour sticky board covered with dead mites the next day and I was sold. I had no dead bees other than two that got on the hot vaporizer. Matter of fact, bees took very little notice that I was treating them. If I didn't block the entrance, I don't think they would care at all. I have not lost a hive since I started using OAV except for some that didn't re-queen following a swarm and where robbed. So far, no overwinter losses, but my winters, aren't brutal. Got down to 15 twice last year, but never more than 4 days where is was cold enough they can't break cluster. That puts all available stores within reach during most of the winter. Of course mild short winters mean HOT LONG summers and that means LOTS of mites as we have a very long brood season.

I'm trying TF again on a few hives with TF stock. Trying to go TF without TF stock to start with is heartbreaking....


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## dsegrest

Going to get a battery for my new vaporizer in the AM. Will a lawnmower battery work?


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## Stephenpbird

I wont open a hive once it's dark, so I can't use quite a few of the other treatment methods if I am late home from work. But I can pop the vaporizer in and treat. Works well for me.


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## snl

dsegrest said:


> Going to get a battery for my new vaporizer in the AM. Will a lawnmower battery work?


It will, but you'll need to "test fire" it outside the hive first as it may take longer to vaporize than normal. Since you're getting a new battery, why not a car battery as it's not that much more...........


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## MichiganMike

I am getting excellent results with my vaporizer. I use a diehard lawn tractor battery. I have 5 hives and although I can get all five treated the last one is iffy, so I do 3 and recharge then do the last 2. I use a gas mask. I already had the battery, if I were to buy one I agree with Larry and would purchase an auto battery.


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## Dan83

I just started using OAV this summer. There is no doubt oxalic acid kills mites. I have observed massive mite drops after treatment. The first 48 hours seems to have the highest drop and then a few more on the third day. However, when colonies are brooding heavily, the 3 treatments at 7 day intervals didn't do the trick for me. My estimate was about 50% reduction in total mites after the three treatments. After a few more weeks of heavy brooding, that 50% will be back to 100% plus interest. So you've basically bought a little time for the colony. If you treat when the colony is brood less, you will get nearly all the mites and you've bought the colony a lot of time. For me it is too much effort and gas to drive to the outyards for a 50% reduction in mites. I think that 4 or more treatments 5 days apart may be far more effective. But I don't have the time for that. Going forward, I plan to use OAV at any opportunity I have a brood less hive. When nucs or colonies raise their own queen, there will be a window of time where the hive has no capped brood. A newly caught swarm would also benefit from a shot of OAV. During late summer when mite counts are soaring and the hives are brooding heavily, I will have to use another form of treatment.


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## casper_zip

I have also tried to go TF. I had a bad spell of health issues, lots of times in hospital, and also time in rehabbing from this. I lost all of my bee hives except one, my ole Granny Hive, the original one I started with, she is a true survivor classic lady. Many swarms have come from her, and I got my stock up to what I wanted.

This year, bought 2 nucs from a local beek, and my brother brought me two swarms, and in July, I captured a nice small swarm in my front yard. All are doing extremely well. 

I am not postive what killed my bees, some left their hives full of stores and honey, disappeared. One did succumb to the blasted moths, but the rest, I suspect to the mites. I do have SHB problems here, too, but so far, have been able to keep them in check.
Then I started researching and reading all I could how to solve the mite problems. 

I elected to go with the Oxalic Acid Vaporization and I love it. I finished all my hives yesterday, and won't know till later how all goes. I have high hopes and expectations for it. It's really fast, and cheap, once you get over the cost of the applicator. I bought a 5# bulk of acid on Amazon for a neat price, so I should be able to treat as often and as much as I need to. 

Once you do it, have your timer, powder, tool, battery, etc. all ready. Seems like no time, you are finished. I love it. Did not seem to bother most of the hives, some got a little frisky, not much, tho. 

All I can say, try it, you'll like it. I guess you may say I'm lazy, I like to do stuff the easy way if I can. I love my bees, and I will do what is necessary to make their lives the very best I can. No, I'm not commerical. Usually give my honey away to kinfolks, neighbors, and my fellow church members. Most all are glad to get this "God's Gift" made by His experts with his flowers/plants.

Best to all,
Casper


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## Daniel Y

I do not do mite drop counts. I observe colony behavior and productivity.

Since May of 2012 I have treated my first colony in July of that year. productivity was nearly none existent and I was seeing other indications of heavy mite infestation. After one treatment activity of the colony picked up and the colony eventually produced a harvest able amount of honey. but not a lot. In the spring of 2013 I had 4 colonies and treated all of them in May. At the end of 2013 we had 27 colonies and again they where all treated prior to winter setting in. we had an extremely mild winter 2013 to 2014. In the spring of this year we did not treat due to finding no indication of mites in any colonies. later we captured swarms that we did find mites on and still did not treat. In July of this year we noticed none productivity in all hives but did not attribute this to mite loads But other environmental factors. no other indications of mite infestation where observed. Recently colony population growth has not been consistent with brood production so I decided it is time to treat again. we applied the second of three treatments as of yesterday. It has been over a year since treating these hives. We now have 40. Produced a lot more this year and sold them. 

OAV works and it works well. I think it also works on a lot more than Varroa as well. It is the only treatment we use regularly. I was using Fumagillin B for the first year we have abandoned that practice. I have never used other mite control products. I am not a TF advocate but I am a preventions is better than a cure and strong and healthy solves most everything type.

I do far more to keep bees strong and thriving than I ever do treating. But when colonies simply will not thrive. treatment may very well be the next answer.


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## JWChesnut

Mixed experience with OAV.

1. OAV overdose can kill hives outright. OAV is toxic to bees, and the therapeutic-to-toxic ratio is narrow. OAV has shifted from a 1x application, to a 3x at 7 day interval, to a 4x at 5 day interval prescription. Obviously, in the repeated application, hives will be approaching the toxic threshold. The 4x-5 day prescription is ad hoc and annecdotal --- I don't see any research on the limits to this, or how the hives buffers the accumulated application.

2. Like Dan (above), OAV is noticeably less effective than Fluvinate, Amitraz or Formic on the total population of mites. During the exponential phase (September in my climate) mite populations resaturate a hive in just days. Notes: Fluvinate is still effective on my local mites (though I only use it tests, not as a matter of course). Lethal mite levels are a fraction of the exponential population generated when the drone resident population is released in September.

Positive:

1. OAV appears far less toxic than OAV dribble or Formic to queens in my experience.
2. Response to OAV on "crawlers" is very rapid (24 hours or less), there may be a virus therapeutic effect (pH shifts in the bee?) that goes unreported.

On balance,
The economy and relative safety of OAV (to humans and queens) make it a remarkably good choice for the backyard hive. 

I wish a controlled trial of the 1x, 3x and 4x protocols were published. 

I sense that the optimal treatment window for OAV should be investigated. Pre-brood-up in earliest spring is obvious choice. I also think the fall/dearth drone transition period is essential as the resident drone brood mites must be on the move in that window.


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## snl

JWChesnut said:


> Mixed experience with OAV.
> 
> 1. OAV overdose can kill hives outright. OAV is toxic to bees, and the therapeutic-to-toxic ratio is narrow. OAV has shifted from a 1x application, to a 3x at 7 day interval, to a 4x at 5 day interval prescription. Obviously, in the repeated application, hives will be approaching the toxic threshold. The 4x-5 day prescription is ad hoc and annecdotal --- I don't see any research on the limits to this, or how the hives buffers the accumulated application.


JW......I'm sure an overdose of OAV can kill bees outright, but a gram per brood chamber is not an overdose, it is the recommended dosage based on many studies. I have treated my hives now going on 3 years with OAV in the multiple treatment mode and have experienced no toxic threshold reactions. The hives are thriving. While the 3 or 4 times 5 day treatment may seem ad hoc or anecdotal with hives that have brood, it is not. It coincides with the emergence of mites with the brood. You want to kill those mites as they are emerging and before they have a chance to enter a brood cell and start breeding again. 
OAV during the brooding period is labor intensive for a commercial beekeeper and there are better choices until a quicker method of applying OA is found at a reasonable price. However, for those who wish (or have the time) to do so using OAV three or four times in a 5 day treatment program works and works well.


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## cristianNiculae

Worked for me too.
Last year I treated only using OAV - 4 times in Autumn. Next treatments were made this August but this time formic acid.
I overdosed last year by mistake and had no problems (~6g/2 deeps)


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## beepro

I agree that when the bees are sick they need to be treated to prevent the death of the colony. There are many
treatment methods that are affective too. I have read that the OAV over time the mites can build resistant to them. What is the next method of
treatment after that?

I have not treat my hives on 3 years of beekeeping. I gave them a brood break during the summer
time by requeening all my hives for 2 months with nucs broods to support the hive population.
Since there is no nectar flow in the dearth here every summer so I have to feed them. 
Then on the early Fall flow the new queens started to build up the nest. This is the time
that they are doing it. Going into the Fall and winter will be some nice fat bees to overwinter with. So far I have
not see any mite infestation on any of my hives on hive observation. All my comb are 80% small size cells so I don't know
if it is due to this or not to minimize the mite infestation. The local bee farm where I got my queens from said they are the survivor local stock that resist the mites with built in VSH genetics. I am happy with this brood break method and local VSH survivor stocks so far. The after the solstice queens made 1 month ago really building up the nest with this end of summer/Fall flow. In 2 more weeks my mid-summer Borage will be blooming to give them a boost of feed. I think it is not just one method of treatment but a combination of all the right key elements according to your local environment to make beekeeping work. What do you think?


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## Daniel Y

beepro said:


> I have read that the OAV over time the mites can build resistant to them.
> 
> 
> Then on the early Fall flow the new queens started to build up the nest. This is the time that they are doing it. Going into the Fall and winter will be some nice fat bees to overwinter with.
> 
> So far I have not see any mite infestation on any of my hives on hive observation.
> 
> I think it is not just one method of treatment but a combination of all the right key elements according to your local environment to make beekeeping work. What do you think?


I think that beekeeping is similar to driving a car. you have to do what you have to do when you have to do it. And so you best be paying attention. And for every moment you have a range of options.

What methods do you use to observe for mites in your hive? I know that if I simply relied on seeing them hitch hiking on the backs of bees I would never have any idea of the mite situation in my colonies. I pull drone brood. They are easy to spot on a pupa.

I have not heard supported claims that Mites develop resistance to OAV. Given OA does not effect the mites by toxicity I do not think they could. Treatment may miss some but that woudl not result in development of resistance. Resistance to OAV would be a little like saying someone developed a resistance to explosions simply because they had survived several bombings.

As for mite populations and mite build up. It always seems a little strange to me when people say when my brood populations are low either naturally or artificially. mite numbers are low. They then report this as some benefit that allows them to build up brood populations. Brood is where mites live. little brood few mites. lots of brood more mites and mites reproduce faster than bees do so if conditions where correct for bees to build up it was also correct for the mites to build up. It just seems a little presumptuous to to watch a colony population build but assume you somehow did something devastating to prevent the mites from doing the very same thing. It stands to reason for me that they do, and they are better at it than the bees are.


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## dsegrest

Yesterday, I pulled the mite-board that I had placed under the hive on Tuesday. The count was 48. I had 63 a week ago, but a week before that I had begun putting vinegar in the sugar-water. that is a form of acid treatment that should work the same as OAV. I am not sure whether the high mite count before was a result of mites being killed by the vinegar or whether it was just a very high infestation that has been reduced by the vinegar. A queenless hive had a count of 22 in the earlier period and was not monitored this time.

48 is still unacceptable.

I got a lawn tractor battery yesterday and plugged in the vaporizer to see if the battery needed charging. I was really impressed with the speed of the heating. I barely had the thing connected when smoke was coming off of the reservoir. I will treat 2 hives today. I will treat the hive at my office tomorrow. The sticky board is going in the office hive in a few minutes. I will post results here of the weekend mite drop, which should be very high if the oav works. Then we will see what the count is next weekend before the second treatment.


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## Daniel Y

What causes you to think that Vinegar would work the same as OAV?


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## beemandan

MichiganMike said:


> I use a diehard lawn tractor battery. I have 5 hives and although I can get all five treated the last one is iffy, so I do 3 and recharge then do the last 2.


I have a garden variety lawnmower battery that lives in my lawnmower during the spring/summer and is removed for my vaporizer in fall. I'll charge it and have done twenty hives between charges without noticeable degradation. Granted....it is a different brand vaporizer than the one that Randy Oliver ranked as 'one of the highest'.


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## dsegrest

Daniel Y said:


> What causes you to think that Vinegar would work the same as OAV?


vinegar is a much milder acid than oxalic acid; but it is an acid. According to the scientific beekeeper, the acid in the hive or in the hemolymph of the bees is what kills the mites. The vinegar in the feed gets into the bee's system when they eat it.


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## beemandan

beepro said:


> So far I have
> not see any mite infestation on any of my hives on hive observation. What do you think?


If you believe you can judge your mite infestation by observation...you have no idea. beepro? You might need to change that name.


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## Daniel Y

So even though the vinegar has been metabolized. You suspect it is still acidic enough to kill mites? Sort of like changing the Ph of the entire Bee?


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## jim lyon

Oddly enough, there is research out there suggesting this may be one of the modes of action of oxalic trickling. I have my doubts that vinegar works in the same manner but I guess I don't know. There are lots of acids, it would be a mistake to assume they are all effective against varroa.


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## Rader Sidetrack

> According to the scientific beekeeper, the acid in the hive or in the hemolymph of the bees is what kills the mites.


Assuming that is a reference to Randy Oliver's site at scientificbeekeeping.com (not "beekeeper") here is what he says about oxalic acid when used in the "dribble" method:


> We still didn’t know whether the acidity of OA killed the mite through ingestion of acidic bee “blood,” or by direct contact. Ellis and Aliano (2005) performed a clever experiment: By splitting single dequeened colonies with various dividers, and treating only one side, they found that oxalic is apparently transferred through the colony by bee body contact, rather than through trophallaxis (mouth-to-mouth transfer), and distributes well by such contact (80% kill on treated side, 65% kill on untreated).
> 
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/


Both the "dribble" method and vaporization involve distribution of oxalic acid by *contact*. There may be a certain amount of oxalic acid ingested by the bees (as the dribble method involves mixing the OA with syrup), but the ingestion is not the intended method of distribution, and ingesting too much oxalic acid puts the bees' health at risk.

On the other hand acid (vinegar) added to syrup used as feed is _primarily _ingested. I don't think the two are comparable.


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## JWChesnut

There's a Dutch paper on OA dribble that establishes the syrup in OA dribble solutions functions by raising the viscosity of the solution. This results in it staying in contact with the mites longer. The ingestion of the syrup by bees has no effect. They experimented with other viscosity raising materials (cornstarch, tapioca), but concluded that sugar was dirt cheap and effective.

The ingestion of a 2-3% OA solution (as in dribble) by bees is likely buffered by the hemolyph. Its pH is not much different than honey itself, the pKa of Oxalic is 4.2 (and the pKa establishes a lower limit of pH). pH of any acid/base mixture follows a titration (sigmoid) curve, not a linear adjustment.


Why adding Acetic Acid to syrup for bees to ingest is more acceptable than an external Oxalic Acid condensation is left to philosophers to consider.


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## Ray4852

Last winter I didn’t lose a hive treating with mite away quick strips. This year I started treating in June with mite away pads. I didn’t check my mite drop. I treated again in august with the pads. After 3 days I had one thousand dead mites on two of my 3 brood deep hives. My other 4 two deep brood box hives had about 60 mites on the sticky board. Using 3 deep hives create a nice mite factory. Its a lot of work keeping mite numbers down. My mite away pads failed to do the job this year. Its to temp sensitive. I’m treating my hives now with oxalic acid vapor with the Varrox unit. I love the varrox. I use it with a marine deep cycle battery. I have treated my hives 5 times with oxalic acid since my last treament with quick strips. My mite numbers are low on the 4 hives with two deeps, and my two monster hives with 3 deeps still have mites but the mite drop is about 70 mites for 3 days. I'm treating with honey supers off the hives for 4 hours, putting them back on again. I'm very pleased with the varrox. Its worth every penny. I don’t think I will go back using the mite away pads again. Oxalic acid is a lot better because its not temp sensitive.


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## JasonA

dsegrest said:


> vinegar is a much milder acid than oxalic acid; but it is an acid. According to the scientific beekeeper, the acid in the hive or in the hemolymph of the bees is what kills the mites. The vinegar in the feed gets into the bee's system when they eat it.


Apple cider or white vinegar?


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## beepro

I use apple cider vinegar every time I feed them. Sometime it is too much and some bees will not
like the taste. They tried it and walk away. But some will take the syrup anyway. Maybe different bees have
different taste?


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## Myron Denny

Has anyone that has used Oxalic Acid noticed any decrease in Small Hive Beetle population?
If you saw a decrease in population did you use the "dribble method" or the fogger?
If Oxalic Acid does not affect SHB please let me know.


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## JasonA

beepro said:


> I use apple cider vinegar every time I feed them. Sometime it is too much and some bees will not
> like the taste. They tried it and walk away. But some will take the syrup anyway. Maybe different bees have
> different taste?


How much do you use to a gallon or how do you mix it in? Do you use oils as well or just vinegar?

I won't have my first hive until spring. This has been great reading but to treat or not to treat is a roller coaster.


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## beepro

Not to high jack this thread, but I use ~1/2 tablespoon per 1/2 gallon of syrup. Enough to smell the cane sugar and a
trace of the vinegar. Once the syrup has cure enough inside the cell it has a taste of syrup and vinegar together like
sweet and sour sauce. To treat or not depends on the hive situation before the bees form a cluster to overwinter.
If you are sick will you go to the hospital for treatment or let yourself die because of no medical attention? 
Look at it this way, if they're sick because of pests/parasites then do treat otherwise you will not have any bees left on
the Spring time. Dead bee is no bee, right. I favor treatment when it is necessary but not because of a yearly routine process. 
A balance treatment is the key to make them survive the mite infestation before going into winter.
The same goes with feeding during a summer dearth. No resources going in (either artificial or natural) and
the queen does naturally to shut down during the Fall. Then the beekeeper blamed the queen for not laying to pinched her at the end.
How ignorant I think for not understanding the hive dynamics. Mines are opposite of this situation, still booming going into the Fall here.
What do you think?


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## Daniel Y

In the case that bees do ingest acid and actually become lethal in their body chemistry as suggested. Wouldn't there be a long effect of treatment? Say as much as the life expectancy of any bees that ingested the acid? I woudl suggest as much as 6 to 8 weeks at least. Now having aid that I will repeat. I have noticed a lingering effect of an OAV treatment. I would place it more at 2 to 3 weeks.

In addition I was thinking that treatment at the proper time could leave a colony full of bees that are lethal to mites for the entire winter.

The entire idea does not seem plausible to me but I am still just thinking it out to it's conclusion.


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## sqkcrk

JasonA said:


> How much do you use to a gallon or how do you mix it in? Do you use oils as well or just vinegar?
> 
> I won't have my first hive until spring. This has been great reading but to treat or not to treat is a roller coaster.


Buy bees and don't treat them. It's good for the economy.


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## deknow

I've got a copy of an early study on using formic acid fumes.
In this case they were measuring the concentration of fumes in the air a in the hive. What was most interesting was that when they removed the formic, the concentration of acid in the air INCREASED. apparantly the bees were sequestering the acid in their bodies, and when the source was removed they purged the acid as quickly as possible. I can post it later if anyone wants to read it, I'm pretty sure I have it with me.




Daniel Y said:


> In the case that bees do ingest acid and actually become lethal in their body chemistry as suggested. Wouldn't there be a long effect of treatment? Say as much as the life expectancy of any bees that ingested the acid? I woudl suggest as much as 6 to 8 weeks at least. Now having aid that I will repeat. I have noticed a lingering effect of an OAV treatment. I would place it more at 2 to 3 weeks.
> 
> In addition I was thinking that treatment at the proper time could leave a colony full of bees that are lethal to mites for the entire winter.
> 
> The entire idea does not seem plausible to me but I am still just thinking it out to it's conclusion.


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## snl

Myron Denny said:


> If Oxalic Acid does not affect SHB please let me know.


It does not, we all sure wish it did.........


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## dsegrest

Here is the promised update on treatment. 

I treated 2 hives yesterday and I must admit the bees do not appreciate all of the really great things I do to protect their health. 

the treatment process was really easy. I am glad for the advice to have the smoker lit though, I just gave each of the two hives a little puff of smoke, stuck the vaporizer with 1/2 tablespoon of OA into the entrance, covered the entrance with a damp rag and hooked the clips to the battery. 

The hardest part was waiting the 2 1/2 minutes while my little girls were being teargassed. After disconnecting a clip, I left the tool in the hive for 1 minute and repeated the process on the next hive.

The only casualties (that I saw) were 2 crispy critters in the pan of the vaporizer. The bees flew around a little when I got out of the hives but they settled down after about 20 minutes. they didn't even get even with me later. 

If SNL is reading this, please give instructions for cleaning the vaporizer. I have a lot of ideas that would probably work, but I would rather ask than damage the appliance.


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## snl

dsegrest said:


> If SNL is reading this, please give instructions for cleaning the vaporizer. I have a lot of ideas that would probably work, but I would rather ask than damage the appliance.


I just use a "stick" or blunt instrument to remove any residual residue....no other cleaning necessary...


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## crofter

Desegrest Post # 35 is probably a typo but the correct dosage should be half a teaspoon not half a tablespoon!


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## JasonA

sqkcrk said:


> Buy bees and don't treat them. It's good for the economy.




Only if I'm the seller and not the buyer!


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## snl

It's amazing how attitudes/positions have changed! Six months ago, OAV was almost too controversial to discuss on the BS forum. Now that those who have dared to try it and are posting and sharing their incredible results from doing so, OAV is fast becoming a well accepted (and in many, many cases the preferred) treatment to decimate mites. No, it's no "silver bullet" but it will help keep our bees alive until one is found.


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## enjambres

I have two questions for experienced OAV operators:

1) Because my winter-configration hives have unusual interior dimensions I am pondering what dosing amounts to use. I winter hives in tall 7-frame stacks made by blocking off (and filling, it's not empty air-space) a portion of each 10-frame box. For instance I am thinking of wintering one large hive in four, 7-frame, deep boxes (28 deep frames in all). This seems to me to call for a three-box dose, not a four-box dose. At the moment all seams are well-filled with bees, though I know that by Thanksgiving my populations will have been reduced in preparation for winter. What do you think?

2) Occasionally I see references to the need to pull any honey supers off before treating, which raise a few questions, too. How do you do take the honey supers off w/o also pulling off the bees in the honey supers. That would seem to degrade the OAV's performance as some bees' mites would be exempted from being treated. 

I am planning an early winter, brood-less period clean-up treatment. I am leaving a large amount of capped honey this year as an experiment in avoiding feeding. I would prefer not to contaminate the honey by using the OAV - is any honey treated w/ OAV thereafter not fit for human (family use, not for sale) consumption? I was hoping to leave enough honey that they can eat only that, not sugar bricks, and perhaps recover any surplus once the winter is done.

Thanks for your suggestions!

Enj.


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## MichiganMike

Enj, I had the same question about the honey and after researching a number of sites specifically dealing with oxlic acid and food including honey I am confident that the honey is safe to consume. You can start with Oxlicacidinfo.com. I especially would not be concerned with the capped honey, if it could penetrate the caps it would kill all the mites. Lots of foods we eat contain oxlic acid. Anyway there is a fair bit of info on the web to help you decide.


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## snl

enjambres said:


> I have two questions for experienced OAV operators:
> 
> 1) Because my winter-configration hives have unusual interior dimensions I am pondering what dosing amounts to use. I winter hives in tall 7-frame stacks made by blocking off (and filling, it's not empty air-space) a portion of each 10-frame box. For instance I am thinking of wintering one large hive in four, 7-frame, deep boxes (28 deep frames in all). This seems to me to call for a three-box dose, not a four-box dose. At the moment all seams are well-filled with bees, though I know that by Thanksgiving my populations will have been reduced in preparation for winter. What do you think?
> 
> I agree.......
> 
> 2) Occasionally I see references to the need to pull any honey supers off before treating, which raise a few questions, too. How do you do take the honey supers off w/o also pulling off the bees in the honey supers. That would seem to degrade the OAV's performance as some bees' mites would be exempted from being treated.
> 
> True, but when you are treating with the supers on, you're treating 3 times and you'll get most of them during that interval. Also most of the bees with mites tend to be in the brood area. You'll also treat again during the broodless period (right around Thanksving) which should eliminate greater than 95%.
> 
> I am planning an early winter, brood-less period clean-up treatment. I am leaving a large amount of capped honey this year as an experiment in avoiding feeding. I would prefer not to contaminate the honey by using the OAV - is any honey treated w/ OAV thereafter not fit for human (family use, not for sale) consumption? I was hoping to leave enough honey that they can eat only that, not sugar bricks, and perhaps recover any surplus once the winter is done.
> 
> Michigan Mike addressed this in his response.
> 
> Thanks for your suggestions!
> 
> Enj.


Larry


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## Daniel Y

Maybe phrasing it like 1/4 teaspoon per 10 frames will make the calculations easier. So for 28 frames you want 3/4 teaspoon. With OAV exact dosage is not as critical.

As for the honey. I usually do not find a lot of bees up on the sugar fraems. not sure I woudl worry about them. I have also heard that mites tend to be on the bees where the brood is. If you are still worried about it then you can drive the bees from the supers just as you would if you where harvesting the honey. Take the honey not the bees, treat, return the honey.

Or as suggested above. find out if their is actually anything to worry about in the first place. OA is already in honey naturally.


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## snl

Daniel Y said:


> Maybe phrasing it like 1/4 teaspoon per 10 frames will make the calculations easier. So for 28 frames you want 3/4 teaspoon. With OAV exact dosage is not as critical.


Good point......


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## enjambres

Thank you all for the replies and good advice. 

I do think it makes sense to think of the treatment dosage on a per-10-deep-frame basis, because that is really talking about the size of the cavity within which the vapor is being dispersed. Does it vary by the size of the box, as well, i.e., medium boxes would count as only 2/3 as much as deep boxes and 8-frame equipment would be only 80% of the full dose?

The "honey supers" I'm talking about are their winter stores, which in my very cold climate are considerable. And there are bees in them and at the temps I'm planning to treat at (50F) it would not be advisable to take the boxes off, or try to drive them down, or out.

And I only plan on treating once. Though I realize than when "honey supers" are typically on it is during a period w/brood so treating more than once is necessary because of the _brood_, not the honey itself. 

My girls are already winding down their brood, perhaps earlier than usual this year for some reason of their own. I will be watching closely as if I can do the treatment earlier rather than after Thanksgiving, I will. As some years it freezes up and stays cold well from before Thanksgiving.

Enj.


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## beemandan

enjambres said:


> And I only plan on treating once.


I hope you understand that by the time the bees stop brood production for cold weather....the damage has already been done. So, after your onetime, overwinter broodless treatment, if your colony still fails, you shouldn't presume that the treatment failed but, instead, that the treatment strategy did. Just my opinion.


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## JWChesnut

Daniel Y said:


> Maybe phrasing it like 1/4 teaspoon per 10 frames will make the calculations easier. So for 28 frames you want 3/4 teaspoon. With OAV exact dosage is not as critical.


OA concentration and volume actually has a quite narrow target.

Nicholas Aliano's research (I edited his graph by overlaying the Varroa and Bee curves, and adding a line roughly indicating where the standard dribble prescription of 5 ml per frame seam (of 1800 bees). 



The chart indicates mortality of Varroa is linear to a saturation point, but bee mortality is already climbing when this saturation is reached. 

The applicator wants to get Varroa effective dose to the 95% threshold, but doesn't want to overshoot. If he overdoses, he will be killing scarce fall bees unnecessarily.

It is necessary to get the Varroa effective dose to high percentages, because in the fall exponential phase, Varroa is already above threshold, and is capable of rapid population recovery.

Don't misunderstand me --- I think OAV is the hobbyists best answer to exploding mite populations -- but we must respect the power of the little acid and avoid sloppiness in its application. This includes ** a respirator** --- OAV fumes will burn lung tissue. Damaged lungs are not a welcome consequence.


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## Daniel Y

JW, You are referring to OA dribble not OAV. dribble has a much tighter dosage requirement. Plus do you realize that graph shows a doubling of the dosage before much of any effect on the bees was measurable? What I see is you get near maximum effect on the mites at 3% solution and above. not a real narrow margin in my book. you start getting harm to bees at 6% and above. So you have a range between 3 and 6% solution even with a dribble mixture.

So I could have a 100% increase in the recommended dosage of dribble. and OAV is even far more forgiving than that. The OP is asking about a possible 33% increase or overdose of the recommendation.

Will it harm the bees to treat a medium super with a dosage recommended for a deep? No not even close. Do you have to land in some narrow band to get effective treatment. No you simply have to get above a minimum. Even with dribble. Is there a point the OA will harm bees. it depends on what you consider harm. But yes it will begin to harm bees to some degree at some point. I did see one report of OAV being applied as tablespoons rather than teaspoons. that would be a 3 fold overdose. That person reported they where concerned they may have harmed their bees. I do not recall them reporting dead bees. The bees did not winter well or where lost over winter and they thought they may have contributed to the bees not doing well.

I make no adjustment for a medium vs a deep. No negative effect. I make no adjustment for a heavily populated hive over a lightly populated on. I make no allowance for area of comb in any given box. I simply count boxes and add the dosage required based on boxes. I would not want to get extremely overboard. and I have not noticed a failed treatment due to making it a little short either. I suspect the greatest impact the treatment has is when the vapor is airborn and everything is getting bathed in it. That is just my impression. and a lot of vapor or a little seems to get the job done. I have used many different methods to vaporize. some vaporize the dose quickly resulting in vapor bellowing out of every crevice. others work slowly hardly noticeable at all as far as a cloud. it still works. I have thought of trying to use just a 1/4 teaspoon for any hive of any size. Just have not worked up the courage to risk a hive to it.


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## dsegrest

I pulled the sticky board from my "office hive", but have not yet counted it. It doesn't seem to have many mites so I probably won't treat here. I will be putting the mite board under 1 of the hives I treated at the house this afternoon and pulling it out tomorrow. The bees seem to be much calmer than they were. That could be for other reasons. 

The weather is nice and they seem to be bringing home lots of groceries. The queenless hive that I didn't treat has been re-queened.


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## enjambres

@Beemandan,

I wasn't clear: the broodless-period treatment is NOT my only recent treatment. I have already treated with MAQS (August 1st, and again on Sept 15th). I monitor regularly and was surprised to see my roll numbers bumping back up again 6 weeks after treating, but this has been a very bad mite year locally. Because I am in the north I didn't want to wait too long so, after taking advice, I decided on the second treatment at a one-strip per hive dosage because my mite levels were still low, though obviously rising. 

The broodless-period OAV treatment is just a final clean-up to knock out remaining phoretic mites. I think that may be useful in reducing the intial up-tick of mites when the bees start to brood-up again in the Spring.

I actually purchased the vaporizer last December, intending to do this kind of early winter treatment. But our winter started off mean and cold and stayed awful for nearly six weeks and by the time I had a day when it was warm enough to use the vaporizer, my bees already had brood, again, so a single treatment would have been pointless. This year, I won't be caught so flat-footed.

At any rate, despite not being able to do the OAV last year as I intended, all of my hives survived last winter in fine form. I had treated in the early Fall Fall with Apiguard, which was effective, but I think it would have been better to have done a clean-up with OAV, nonetheless, as I think it would favorably altered to dynamics of the mites' growth cycle this spring and summer.

I am still trying to get my anti-mite program sussed out. Trying to decide when and what will be my baseline treatment schedule. But while I'm doing this, I monitor almost constantly, year-round.

Enj.


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## dsegrest

snl said:


> I just use a "stick" or blunt instrument to remove any residual residue....no other cleaning necessary...


Thank you.


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## dsegrest

crofter said:


> Desegrest Post # 35 is probably a typo but the correct dosage should be half a teaspoon not half a tablespoon!


That is a Typo. I was instructed to use 1/4 teaspoon per brood chamber. I have double deeps so I used 1/2. Thank you for the correction.


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## dsegrest

Daniel Y said:


> So even though the vinegar has been metabolized. You suspect it is still acidic enough to kill mites? Sort of like changing the Ph of the entire Bee?


That is the way I understand it. I am not a chemist or a biologist. I'm not even a very good poet, but that is what I gained from the Scientific Beekeeper.


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## dsegrest

JasonA said:


> Apple cider or white vinegar?


Apple cider. The bees like the smell of the apple. White vinegar is for cleaning windows.


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## dsegrest

JasonA said:


> How much do you use to a gallon or how do you mix it in? Do you use oils as well or just vinegar?
> 
> I won't have my first hive until spring. This has been great reading but to treat or not to treat is a roller coaster.


I make 3 gallons of syrup at a time and just splash a little in. A little goes a very long way. If you put a little the bees love it. If you put too much they won't feed.


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## dsegrest

I pulled the mite board in the office this weekend and just got around to counting yesterday. I got 1/2 through and counted 80 and quit. Treated that hive this morning. 

Pulled mite board on one of the treated hives at home yesterday. Count went up to 60. I hope that means they are still falling from the treatment. It could of course mean the treatment didn't work. 

Will treat those two hives again Thursday if the weather is good. I have to change the bottom board on one of them, not sure if I should do both at the same time. 

The office hive will be monitored Fri/Sat and retreated next Tuesday.

Scraping the vaporized did not clean it to my satisfaction. Would a shot of "goof-off" hurt it?


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## snl

dsegrest said:


> Scraping the vaporized did not clean it to my satisfaction. Would a shot of "goof-off" hurt it?


Most are satisfied to just remove any debris as that is sufficient. You could try goof off but that's overkill.


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## dsegrest

snl said:


> Most are satisfied to just remove any debris as that is sufficient. You could try goof off but that's overkill.


I like for my tools to look the way they did when I bought them.


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## sqkcrk

I bet they don't though, do they?


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## Michael Bush

>Hopefully we can convert some of the TF folks to OAV and give some doubters of OAV a "nudge" to convert.

Seriously?


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## snl

Michael Bush said:


> >Hopefully we can convert some of the TF folks to OAV and give some doubters of OAV a "nudge" to convert.
> 
> Seriously?


Already have.............and not just a couple......


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## sqkcrk

Then they aren't TF beekeepers anymore, are they?


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## snl

sqkcrk said:


> Then they aren't TF beekeepers anymore, are they?


Prior to losing their hives and moving to OAV they were...........


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## snl

Michael Bush said:


> >Hopefully we can convert some of the TF folks to OAV and give some doubters of OAV a "nudge" to convert.
> 
> Seriously?


Michael, a growing number of TF folks that had tried very hard to remain so, have given up after losing their bees and opted for OAV. There is even a thread on BS that shows their frustration. They have come to the conclusion that OAV is the next best option to TF.


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## sqkcrk

snl said:


> Michael, a growing number of TF folks that had tried very hard to remain so, have given up after losing their bees and opted for OAV. There is even a thread on BS that shows their frustration. They have come to the conclusion that OAV is the next best option to TF.


I see their experience as productive. Some times one has to go through the fire to come out stronger. It's not like something hasn't been learned.


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## CBoggs

Greetings. I am back in the beekeeping after a 10 year break. Bought 4 hives from commercial keeper, and have done two extractions for a total of 6 hives running now. Looked at all the mite treatment options out there, and the OAV looked like the most sensible. Bought the vaporizer, and have done 3 treatments in Sept. 

Using screened bottom boards on all but 1 hive, and thats just because haven't got around to changing it yet. The 1st treatment the mite boards we're covered up with dead mites, probably a 1000. 2nd treatment still quite a few, unable to count, maybe 500. Haven't pulled the boards on the 3rd treatment yet; life happens, got busy. Hoping for a very low count, but too much time has passed to get a true reading. 

Planning on doing another treatment on a warm day late Nov or Dec when brood is very low. 

Prior to treatment I looked for mites, but didn't see any. I realize my counts are not scientific, but I'm not one to spend a lot of time counting, but I applaud those that do. 

Bee's don't appear to be happy when your doing it, but no more so than anything else we do to them. No dead bee's except those that got into the vaporizer. Bee's seem to be happy and health after treatments.

Hope this helps anyone trying to decide.


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## snl

An experiement conducted by researchers at LASI using 110 hives comparing three application methods and three different doses was completed in 2014. Hives were treated in early January 2013 when they had no brood. Oxalic acid does not kill varroa in sealed cells, but rather kills those varroa transported on the bodies of workers and also those crawling in cells not yet capped.The researchers determined the proportion of mites killed by washing the mites off a sample of approximately 300 workers bees immediately before and after 10 days of treatment with OA. They also determined the number of bees killed at the time of treatment, together with hive mortality and strength 4 months later in spring.
The results came to a clear and encouraging conclusion. Application of OA via sublimation, where OA is applied in its pure form by vapourising the crystals with a special heated tool, was superior to application as a solution via either spraying or dribbling. Sublimation gave a greater kill of varroa at a lower OA level and showed no increase in bee mortality. In fact, 4 months after treatment, the hives treated via the sublimation had more brood than the 10 untreated colonies.
The sublimation method is quick and easy, as the hives do not need to be opened. To confirm the results obtained by LASI researchers early in 2013, the sublimation technique was retested one year later in December 2013, just before Christmas, in broodless honey bee colonies. An amazing 97% of the varroa were killed by using 2.25g of oxalic acid per hive, and colony survival 3 months later in spring was close to 100%.


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## snl

Myron Denny said:


> Has anyone that has used Oxalic Acid noticed any decrease in Small Hive Beetle population?


Neither OAV or OAD (Oxalic Acid Dribble) has any effect on SHB.... But now, with the hive almost broodless, is a great time to treat with OA to kill winter mites as OAV will kill greater than 95 % of the mites in the hive.


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## dsegrest

I finished the 3 treatments on 3 hives a little over 2 weeks ago. The mite drop after treatment was so high, I didn't want to count it. I hope that indicated a high death rate instead of a high infestation rate.

Thursday (the 30th) the oil was changed in the trays. I will check the oil in a treated colony and the untreated colony today to see how many mites are there. The untreated colony had been broodless for a month and the count on the sticky board was low. As nice as the empirical method is, I do not intend to let a "control" group die. I don't think that hive needed treatment.


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## snl

dsegrest said:


> The mite drop after treatment was so high, I didn't want to count it. I hope that indicated a high death rate instead of a high infestation rate.


Can't have a high death rate w/o a high infestation rate...........but at least you got em..........


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## dsegrest

Before treatment I counted 49 on a 24 hour sticky board in one hive and 63 in another. I think that is pretty high. 1 hive didn't get counted because a skunk (or something) pulled the sticky board through the wrong way and it got stuck.


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## dsegrest

I did look at the oil trays last Thursday. I did not have time to "change the oil" or count the mites. Monday the oil was so nasty with other debris that a mite count would have been pretty much impossible. As a REALTOR/Property manager, the 1st part of the month is kind of rough for me. I will change the oil this weekend and then Monday I can get a fresh count by pouring the oil through a coffee filter and counting mites.


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## Robbin

dsegrest said:


> I did look at the oil trays last Thursday. I did not have time to "change the oil" or count the mites. Monday the oil was so nasty with other debris that a mite count would have been pretty much impossible. As a REALTOR/Property manager, the 1st part of the month is kind of rough for me. I will change the oil this weekend and then Monday I can get a fresh count by pouring the oil through a coffee filter and counting mites.



dsegrest, do what you need to do, I did, but at some point counting is a waste of time. I don't count my OAV hives. I can treat them with less effort than it is to count. So I treat on a schedule. Once before I put supers on in early spring. Three weekly treatments during the dearth after the supers are off, Then again in late fall when there is very little brood and no supers going into winter. I'm counting my TF hives going into fall, but won't let them fail. Doesn't bother me at all to use OAV and I may decided counting the TF hives isn't worth it either... Good luck over the winter...


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## SS1

Thje first time I used OAV I counted mite fall.. I have never done so again.. I dont have Screened bottom boards and with 40 ish hives mit becomes pretty time consuming.. From that point forward I treat much as otherts here do, three times in the spring, three times in the fall.. I treat when it is still warm enough that "I" am comfortable while doing it.. I have not had a hive succumb to mites since I started treating with OAV..
I bought out a beekeeper this spring who lost all but two of his 18 hives last winter.. It was near July when I went to pick everything up.. Both surviving hives were INFESTED with mites and DWV was in clear evidence.. When those hives arrived home the FIRST thing I did was slide the vaporizor into the hives...
Two weeks in a row, skip a week, and treat a third time to get the mites that were in capped cells..
Those two hives managed to come back and produce 218 lbs of honey.. Mite count tested 0 in mid August. I tested both hives twice with an Either roll..

OAV is NOT leagal to use in the US as a mite treatment.. Why? Because it costs money to get treatments approved. None of the big companies that produce the expensive treatments WANT something effective, simple and CHEAP approved, and Rest assured, they WILL make attempts to stop approval within reason, if the process is started.. it will cost them money..
However, there is NOTHING illegal about using wood bleach to treat your frames and interior surfaces of the boxes. I am a staunch supporter of keeping my frames bleached with Oxalic Acid Vapor. I believe well bleached frames keeps the bees happy and healthy. The proof can easily be seen.. Stop bleaching one of your hives, and those poor bees will become despondent, stressed, and they will die.. Bees do not like dirty dark frames! It has been PROVEN!!! YOU can prove it yourself!

The best thing about it?? For about ten dollars you get enough OA to bleach the frames of over 400 hives!

:applause:


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## rookie2531

SS1 said:


> Thje first time I used OAV I counted mite fall.. I have never done so again.. I dont have Screened bottom boards and with 40 ish hives mit becomes pretty time consuming.. From that point forward I treat much as otherts here do, three times in the spring, three times in the fall.. I treat when it is still warm enough that "I" am comfortable while doing it.. I have not had a hive succumb to mites since I started treating with OAV..
> I bought out a beekeeper this spring who lost all but two of his 18 hives last winter.. It was near July when I went to pick everything up.. Both surviving hives were INFESTED with mites and DWV was in clear evidence.. When those hives arrived home the FIRST thing I did was slide the vaporizor into the hives...
> Two weeks in a row, skip a week, and treat a third time to get the mites that were in capped cells..
> Those two hives managed to come back and produce 218 lbs of honey.. Mite count tested 0 in mid August. I tested both hives twice with an Either roll..
> 
> OAV is NOT leagal to use in the US as a mite treatment.. Why? Because it costs money to get treatments approved. None of the big companies that produce the expensive treatments WANT something effective, simple and CHEAP approved, and Rest assured, they WILL make attempts to stop approval within reason, if the process is started.. it will cost them money..
> However, there is NOTHING illegal about using wood bleach to treat your frames and interior surfaces of the boxes. I am a staunch supporter of keeping my frames bleached with Oxalic Acid Vapor. I believe well bleached frames keeps the bees happy and healthy. The proof can easily be seen.. Stop bleaching one of your hives, and those poor bees will become despondent, stressed, and they will die.. Bees do not like dirty dark frames! It has been PROVEN!!! YOU can prove it yourself!
> 
> The best thing about it?? For about ten dollars you get enough OA to bleach the frames of over 400 hives!
> 
> :applause:


Ss1, you are really going to have to show me some proof, that oav is illegal in the USA. I understand that it is not recommended. I am also aware that companies can NOT sell OA as advertised mite treatment, but as far as illegal. I need to see that in writing in a law book before I believe it.


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## snl

rookie2531 said:


> Ss1, you are really going to have to show me some proof, that oav is illegal in the USA. I understand that it is not recommended. I am also aware that companies can NOT sell OA as advertised mite treatment, but as far as illegal. I need to see that in writing in a law book before I believe it.


Rookie, since it is NOT an approved mitecide (as only* approved *one's are legal), it is illegal to use it if it's "intended" use is to kill mites. However if the "intended" use is to clean the woodenware in your hive, that's another story...


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## Rader Sidetrack

_Rookie2531 _- Larry's comments in post #76 about the legal status of oxalic acid when used as a miticide are correct.

But if you want to see the law for yourself, the key place to start is to search for "FIFRA", which is the enabling legislative framework for EPA regulations on pesticides. You can find discussion on this topic, along with EPA links and quotes in this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...l-mites&p=1170756&highlight=fifra#post1170756

You aren't likely to find oxalic acid _used as a pesticide_ mentioned directly as legal/illegal at the EPA site. The way pesticide rules work is that a substance used as a pesticide _must _complete the EPA registration process* before it can legally be used as a pesticide, and then _ONLY _ be used as per the directions on the product label. No oxalic acid product label says anything about using it as a miticide, therefore it is a violation of federal law to do so.



* there are a few exceptions to this, for instance _some _substances are on a "_Generally Regarded As Safe_" (GRAS) list.


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## SS1

Illegal... I doubt you would ever have an issue BECAUSE you use OAV.. However, if you are selling honey commercially it could be used against you.. Other than that, I really dont think there is much that can be done. I highly doubt you will be going to jail etc..


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## rookie2531

I guess this discussion could turn in circles forever then, because if I use bottled water and make a moat to keep and drown ants from getting in my hive, then I'm violating federal law because water is not a labeled mitecide, but I am using it as one? What about all those home remedies? I would like to see a full gras list

But, I see what you mean and once again am humbled, sorry to SS1.


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## BeeCurious

rookie2531 said:


> I guess this discussion could turn in circles forever then, because if I use bottled water and make a moat to keep and drown ants from getting in my hive, then I'm violating federal law because water is not a labeled mitecide, but I am using it as one?




:scratch:


When did ants become mites?


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## SS1

Water is not a chemical that could contaminate honey.. Honey HAS oxalic acid in it naturally. Tests in other countries have shown NO INCREASE in the OA content of honey after treating with OA.. There are a LOT of facts that can be looked up from testing and research done in OTHER countries, but apparently nothing done outside of our borders is accepted or recognized.
Use ANY chemical in an un approved manner while selling your honey commercially and you open yourself to fines etc.. Know a nearby keep that uses his own home made mite treatment, and it WORKS, but he sells about a ton of honey each year, and lives in fear of being discovered.. I do not fear being caught using OAV.. I do not treat with supers on, so the best they can do is tell me to stop bleaching my frames.. If they DO tell me to stop bleaching my frames, they will have to come up with some legality in writing that tells me I cannot bleach my frames in that way before I will stop..


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## Daniel Y

I want to point out what I consider a significant error in the point Graham argues.

First Is the insistence on make statements such as something is stated as legal. Such as the comment above stating, "mentioned directly as legal/illegal". 

I see such a comment as a clear indication of mislead thinking on the subject.

First The EPA's determination concerning OA has been made. directly and specifically concerning OA. Not in some general category sort of decision. it has been posted a couple of times. Do a search for Oxalic acid as a pesticide and you will find it easily enough. some time spent gaining the ability to interpret such documents and you will have it for yourself. In this there is the issue of interpretation. I say the document says exactly what it says. and it is the EPA's decisions concerning OA. Graham seems to not agree with what it says so there must be some other statement somewhere that would agree with what he expects to find. He has yet to produce it.

In short the EPA's decision concerning OA is that it is an inert ingredient and has been turned over to their inert ingredients program for regulation. that program has chosen to put no restrictions on it's use. 

Far more serious than the above is the idea that something is declared legal. Nothing is in fact declared legal ever. Laws are passed that then case certain things to be illegal. But nothing is ever called legal. not in a rendering a decision or imposing a regulation sort of manner. Such a comment in a well informed conversation of this nature is about as appropriate as a prostitute at a wedding. It is about as far out of line as well. To me it demonstrates a basic serious lack of understanding of the subject matter.

I will once again state my basic argument. OA used to control mites is as likely to be illegal as the use of powdered sugar for the same purpose.

The question I would like to see discussed is why is there such a big difference of opinion when the subject is Oxalic Acid than there is when the subject is Powdered Sugar? What is it about the mind of most people that they will form a completely different opinion just because you changed the substance being discussed?

Not once have I ever seen it even hinted at that using powdered sugar as a pesticide might be illegal. I in fact believe most would find the idea ludicrous. I think it is just as ludicrous to be concerned with the use of OA.


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## Rader Sidetrack

I see no point in attempting to refute most of DY's comments above [again]. If you want to see the first time around, read my posts in this earlier thread starting at/around post #21 and DY's responses starting at post #27. No point going over it _again _- the law hasn't changed _any _ in the past 10 days! 


However, this comment by DY does deserve a response:


Daniel Y said:


> First Is the insistence on make statements such as something is stated as legal. Such as the comment above stating, "mentioned directly as legal/illegal".
> 
> I see such a comment as a clear indication of mislead thinking on the subject.


Here is what I _ACTUALLY SAID_ ...


Rader Sidetrack said:


> [HIGHLIGHT]You aren't likely to find[/HIGHLIGHT] oxalic acid _used as a pesticide_ mentioned directly as legal/illegal at the EPA site.


 My comment was meant to mean that you WON'T FIND an explicit EPA statement regarding using oxalic acid as a miticide. 

Regardless of DY's comments above, substances are NOT deemed either "legal" or "illegal" pesticides UNLESS you also specify _what pest _is being targeted by the use of that pesticide.

If you are tempted to believe DY's comment that the EPA has decided that oxalic acid is inert when used as a miticide, than ask yourself why a very knowledgeable (and very public) beekeeper like Randy Oliver agrees with my assessment of the legal status of oxalic acid used as a miticide:



> Author’s note: Oxalic acid is not legally approved for mite control in the U.S. The author does not promote its use as such in any unapproved manner.
> 
> _Read the whole page here:
> _http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/


.


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## rookie2531

BeeCurious said:


> :scratch:
> 
> 
> When did ants become mites?


I meant to say pesticide, sorry once again. And now I'm out of this discussion, because it clearly is above my knowledge. Just when I think I know something, I know less.


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## Daniel Y

Rader Sidetrack said:


> If you are tempted to believe DY's comment that the EPA has decided that oxalic acid is inert when used as a miticide, than ask yourself why a very knowledgeable (and very public) beekeeper like Randy Oliver agrees with my assessment of the legal status of oxalic acid used as a miticide:
> 
> .


One possible reason, among many. Is that maybe Randy makes the same assumption it seems everyone else does. Yet Randy will kill mites with alcohol without a moments concern. So in fact what Randy thinks about OA is not in fact what he thinks about killing mites only with registered, approved and regulated substances. And that is the difference. Not everything that will kill mites is considered a pesticide. is regulated or needs approval to be used to kill mites.

As for the EPA's decision in regard to OA specifically. I have posted it before multiple times. I will not do it again. Mainly I will not post it again because I find me making the effort to be educated does not give others information. In other words. if others want to make an informed decision then they need to find the information needed to do so.

A bit more speciic to this conversation in regard to the use of the word "Legal". You will never find any ruling that states that OA is legal to use. What you will find, as Graham has posted in teh past. It is Illegal to use any _Pesticide_ in a manner inconsistent with it's labeling. Now lets look at the labeling on OA. There is none. Why woudl there be nothing on the label of OA. Because the EPA said there is nothing that needs to be on it. So There is no label that you need to stay in conformance with.

So does that mean you can simply remove the label form any regulated pesticide and then be exempt from that conformance. No it also happens to be illegal to remove the label from pesticides. It is also illegal to use pesticides if you do not have that information available. Best to leave that little book right there on the bottle.

The EPA used to regulate OA right along with a lot of other things. They re evaluated all the things they originally regulated and pitched a bunch of them off the list. and that is what I consider they did with OA.

In a similar sort of situation. In the 1970's they decided that any building in the US that had asbestos in it had to have it removed by a certain date. They then realized how enormous the cost would be not to mention there was not even close to enough labor to get the job done. They had to recognize such a requirement was in fact impossible. so they changed the regulation concerning asbestos. So we still have asbestos in building everywhere to this day. Why? the truth is because you could never actually get rid of all of it. Just as you could never regulate everything that is used to kill pests. So the EPA has a list of things that kill bugs that they consider pesticides. then there is a list of things that kill bugs that are not considered pesticides. One of the lines drawn in the sand that determines a pesticide from something that simply kills bugs is potential environmental impact.

The EPA tested and measured OA's environmental impact and said. Not enough to worry about. They place no restrictions on how much of it can be used. how it can be used and what it can be used to kill. They did not do so for soapy water. powdered sugar. your finger squishing things or many many other things that are used to kill bugs. See if you can find the actual document that indicates there ruling on soapy water as a pesticide. Show me their decision on Powdered sugar as the same. show me where they even considered powdered sugar. 

Other substances I have seen mentioned on these forums that have no similar labeling concern.

Vegetable or other oils.
Crisco. (Small Hive Beetle Traps as well as cakes to control mites)
Powdered sugar.
Introduction of various predators of the mite or the hive beetle.

I am sure if I applied myself I could make a longer list. the point is why is there not a moments hesitation to recommend these substances without requiring the same conformance to labeling as people readily say about OA? Why is no label necessary when it comes to any of these other things. yet it must be required in regard to OA?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> As for the EPA's decision in regard to OA specifically. I have posted it before multiple times. I will not do it again. Mainly I will not post it again because I find me making the effort to be educated does not give others information.



Well, I don't mind sharing DY's earlier OA "inert" comments with the world again. This is the thread he is referring to:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...id-to-treat-varroa-mites&highlight=inert+ACID

DY's wisdom begins in post #10. My first response is in post #39 and the EPA document that Daniel _thinks _exempts oxalic acid is linked in post #51. You can see my response to that in post #52. 

I have no personal objection to anyone using oxalic acid for varroa control. I think that it should be legal to do so (after qualifying under the EPA registration process). But at this point in time, using oxalic acid _as an unregistered miticide_ is a violation of law. Bleaching wood hives (even bleaching the inside of the hive) with oxalic acid is legal under current law. Using oxalic acid as an unregistered pesticide for varroa control is not.


Write your congressperson if you don't like the current law. :lookout:


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## Davers

Some beeks have spoken about taking off the honey supers during OA treatment. Nobody has mentioned what I had read somewhere is to put a piece of plywood between the honey super and the hive body. That should ease some minds about the OA and honey


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## snl

Davers said:


> Some beeks have spoken about taking off the honey supers during OA treatment. Nobody has mentioned what I had read somewhere is to put a piece of plywood between the honey super and the hive body. That should ease some minds about the OA and honey


Hi Davers,
It was mentioned in other threads. In lieu of removal of supers to treat, coroplast (or plastic sign material) can be inserted between the brood nest and supers. It's cheap (maybe free if you grab some old political signs) and light to handle. However, at this time of year, most of us have our supers removed and can readily treat. Now or very soon, with the hive almost broodless is the very best time to treat as you'll kill greater than 95% of the mites in the hive. The two greatest causes of hive loss during the winter are mites (and the viruses they carry) and lack of stores. Make sure your hives are well stored and treat for mites.


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## SS1

Daniel Y

I will once again state my basic argument. OA used to control mites is as likely to be illegal as the use of powdered sugar for the same purpose.


Go ahead and claim you use OA to treat with while selling your honey commercially.. Add in one hard nosed inspector, and you will find out instantly what NOT APPROVED, and LEGAL means when you pay the fine and are blocked from selling.
Claim you use powdered sugar and no one will blink twice.. While I agree with part of your statement, your way off base when it comes to finding trouble for using OAV in a commercial setting.. There may even be ramifications for those who sell in a less commercial setting, at farmers markets etc... For those who give away their honey and use their own from a hive or four I doubt there is anything that can be done, because they endanger no one but themselves.

Arguing legal/approved or illegal/not approved only goes as far as what your local inspector believes is crossing the line.


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## crofter

Can anyone post a link to an occurrence anywhere in the US of a beekeeper being charged for using oxalic acid (for any reason)? As far as the technical legalities that is in the land of lawyers and even then subject to further interpretation, enactment and enforcement. There are lots of bigger fish to fry but in the meantime I would follow SS1's advice to not broadcast what you are doing! 

Edit; well at least best not put on your honey labels that you treat


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## snl

crofter said:


> I would follow SS1's advice to not broadcast what you are doing!


Unless it's to another beekeeper suggesting he may want a great way to to clean his frames and in the process alleviate any mite problem he / she may have.... Now or very soon, with the hive almost broodless is the very best time to treat as you'll kill greater than 95% of the mites in the hive. The two greatest causes of hive loss during the winter are mites (and the viruses they carry) and lack of stores. Make sure your hives are well stored and treat for mites.


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## Davers

Thanks snl...your reply brings up another question. Since I started with a package in April, I now have two deeps with a honey super on top. When I looked at the super, it wasn't 100% capped so I decided to leave it on through the winter to make sure they had enough food. The hive looks strong so I was going to split the hive in the spring which would make two and at some point make a nuc. Should I take the super off now and if so, what would I do with the some capped and other frames not? The deeps seem heavy but I'm trying to get through the first winter. There's no bee club in my Town just bee producers so any information would be appreciated.


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## channel12001

I plan on getting the Varrocleaner. Is there a way to convert the house AC to DC that will work with the vaporizer? The hives are right in the backyard and it would actually be easier to run an extension cord. I was thinking, could I just hook it up to a 10 amp battery charger?


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## Rader Sidetrack

> I was thinking, could I just hook it up to a 10 amp battery charger?

Maybe.

It depends on how '_smart_' the charger you want to use is, or how creative you are in defeating the 'smart' feature. In this case, a '_smart_' device is bad. See this thread for more:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...g-car-battery-charger-as-power-supply-for-OAV


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## shinbone

crofter said:


> Can anyone post a link to an occurrence anywhere in the US of a beekeeper being charged for using oxalic acid (for any reason)?


I, too, would like to hear about such instances. I suspect if such enforcement had happened, the news would spread quickly and thoroughly through the beekeeping community. That no one has heard of such an enforcement case shows the gov't is not prosecuting beekeepers for using OA. Those who say you shouldn't use OA because it is illegal, are thus "chicken littles."


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## Michael Bush

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?195371-Adees-fined-for-unapproved-chemical-use

When they fined Adee back in 2007 for using unaproved chemicals in thier hive they specified both Fluvalinate and Oxalic acid in the charges. A $14,000 fine...


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## shinbone

Thanks for posting the Minnesota case. But, in that case it was a home made treatment of Fluvalinate and oxalic acid that was fined. The use of the Fluvalinate was off-label use of a registered pesticide would have brought charges by itself. It is not clear that using just oxalic acid would have resulted in legal action.

Plus, there is only this one enforcement action in the entire country for all the OA applications in the last decade. I would say this proves the point that the Federal and State gov'ts are not interested in prosecuting oxalic acid use by beekeepers.


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## Michael Bush

>But, in that case it was a home made treatment of Fluvalinate and oxalic acid that was fined. 

But if the issue was the fluvalinate why did the official charges specify oxalic acid along with fluvalinate? Why not just specify the fluvalinate if that was the only issue?


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## camero7

One of the local bee inspectors uses OAV. It's impossible to know if you use it unless you are caught in the act. Same with dribble. Adee had it on shop towels. Inviting problems with inspections. Randy has information on OA on his web site, no one has attempted to fine him. He freely admits using both OAV and dribble.


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## crofter

The fine also included making a false statement, did it not? The source of the fluvalinate? was labeled for other veterinary purposes. Because oxalic acid was also identified it was included I suppose but it is quite a jump to consider it an equally threatening offense. If someone is clearly against all treatment then the bogeyman of fear is used. I guess I should have worded my question to ask if anyone was ever charged for the solely for using oxalic acid in beehives.

For me it is a moot question because it is legal in Canada. I suspect that most of the people playing up the risk of being charged are not trying to protect anyone's pocket book: maybe other baggage along on that trip!


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## jim lyon

Michael Bush said:


> >But, in that case it was a home made treatment of Fluvalinate and oxalic acid that was fined.
> 
> But if the issue was the fluvalinate why did the official charges specify oxalic acid along with fluvalinate? Why not just specify the fluvalinate if that was the only issue?


The question was does anyone know of someone who was prosecuted solely for using OA. I think it's pretty clear the answer is no and that's probably a good thing for most us......... Right?


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## Michael Bush

> I think it's pretty clear the answer is no and that's probably a good thing for most us......... Right?

I agree it's silly to prosecute beekeepers for using something that is safer for humans than the other acaracides and widely accepted around the world but we have a crazy way of approving pesticides in this country that does not take common sense into account...

My point is that someone was prosecuted and that oxalic acid was specified in the charges.


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## beemandan

Makes me wonder how they got caught with the OA. I mean, they can open a hive, see a shoptowel....or whatever fluvalinate delivery method during a hive inspection but the only way I can imagine the OA is if they were caught red handed dribbling.....or they simply confessed.


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## jim lyon

Michael Bush said:


> > I think it's pretty clear the answer is no and that's probably a good thing for most us......... Right?
> 
> I agree it's silly to prosecute beekeepers for using something that is safer for humans than the other acaracides and widely accepted around the world but we have a crazy way of approving pesticides in this country that does not take common sense into account...
> 
> My point is that someone was prosecuted and that oxalic acid was specified in the charges.


I guess only the inspector could answer that. My guess is it made any prosecution a bit easier as the presence of fluvalinate in a hive is normal but that the method of delivery was not and it might have might have made for a tricky prosecution if it was challenged.


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## Axtmann

You might check this, it give you the answer. There is no MRL on oxalic acid in honey.

http://www.moraybeedinosaurs.co.uk/Varroa/vaporisation_of_oxalic_acid_in_b.htm


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## Tom_A

I haven't read all 6 pages in this thread so I'm hoping these questions haven't been answered already...
Does candy/fondant need to be removed prior to OAV treatment? That is one of the drawbacks with OA dribble because they ingest the acid in 50-50 syrup. But maybe the vapors that land on the feed is negligible.
And does quilt boxes (stuffed with shavings) need to be removed or could just the vent holes be plugged?


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## snl

FWIW
I've treated with OAV when I've had candy, fondant or syrup on/in the hive and have not been able to discern any negative effects.


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