# Wintering success reports on high R value and no upper entrance hives?



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

The air exchange at the *bottom *just as well includes the scenarios with large under-frame buffer.
This is not really about open bottom, strictly speaking.
Thus - the I way I do it qualifies for what you describe.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

I use R26 top and R6 sides with only bottom ventilation. I treated for mites using OXA 8 times in 2021. All my 13 hives were bringing pollen last week. It took me couple years to get to this result. I bought 1 queen, 12 queens are local mutts from OTS or graft.

Now my goal is to repeat it over and over again.


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## Fizbi (Feb 25, 2021)

Second winter success here using 1/2 inch foam with foil on one side facing inward.
The foam box does not touch the hive. I added felt spacers so that air can circulate up the sides.
Top wool blanket. Bottom entrance only.

It gets windy here, so this makes an excellent wind block.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregB said:


> The air exchange at the *bottom *just as well includes the scenarios with large under-frame buffer.
> This is not really about open bottom, strictly speaking.
> Thus - the I way I do it qualifies for what you describe.


Yes the way you have shown with a humidity retaining film and local insulation top and sides of frame bundle it keeps a warm moist atmosphere around the colony.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I didn't use any top vents, most are in good shape.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Haven't used upper vents in over a decade. Here in Tennessee we may not get crazy cold but we get feet of rain over winter. Plenty of moisture. Healthy bees come out of winter looking like Healthy bees.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

No top vent. LongLang 5" by 5/8" end entrance behind a closed robber screen. Finally got some brood building on the 22!
Once I got all the extra syrup out of the box (from over feeding) Humidity has leveled off right where it needs to be.
I think an upper vent may be beneficial when they are drying nectar/syrup.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

With the insulation R values I had it kept the temperature in the upper boxes around 60F. Through the observation window they were not clustered but slow walking on frame tops - not clustered and shivering to produce heat or fanning to cool. I remember seeing a lot of discussion and attention to a chart that was showing elevated metabolic rates at temperatures in this range. I certainly dont see it in the stores consumption that has occurred. I am thinking that chart referred to outside air temperature, not temps inside the hive. Certainly at temperatures approaching 60F outside bees would be flying (whether there was forage or not) and burning up calories. I think misinterpreting that chart led to the belief that insulation was going to induce high high consumption. Actually such temperatures outside the hive of around 37F is the target for indoor bee wintering sheds. I would be willing to bet the temperature inside those stored hives would be similar to what I observed. My bees would have been burning honey to keep it at that temperature. Still far less though than they would have in an un-insulated, upper ventilated hive.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have information to the effect that a very large population in a highly insulated hive with no upper ventilation but in a _warm climate_ can run into problems. Bees can create heat by muscular activity but they can also lower temperature by reguritating body fluids and fanning it. Evaporative cooling. The source for that liquid to evaporate and the energy to fan it may be coming from honey. This is not a well known or well discussed issue. For a simple analogy to aid understanding think of having your fridge and freezer doors open and your air conditioner running. Kind of a race to the bottom. Population will drop off to the point of equilibrium and a small colony may come out in the spring. 

Insulation levels may well have to be adjusted and bees that want to go into winter with huge populations may need some supervision. I notice in many of the Layens and deep hives that the wintering cluster is reduced to about 7 frames. Strong hive going into winter maybe not well described merely by big numbers. Smaller with high percentage of winter bees is perhaps the better target.

Dang, just when the feeling of finally understand starts to dawn, another facet of the problem appears.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> I use R26 top and R6 sides with only bottom ventilation. I treated for mites using OXA 8 times in 2021. All my 13 hives were bringing pollen last week. It took me couple years to get to this result. I bought 1 queen, 12 queens are local mutts from OTS or graft.
> 
> Now my goal is to repeat it over and over again.


It is 35F and my Russian bees and Carniolan mutts are flying


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> I notice in many of the Layens and deep hives that the wintering cluster is reduced to about 7 frames. Strong hive going into winter maybe not well described merely by big numbers. Smaller with high percentage of winter bees is perhaps the better target.


This is another one of my favorite rants...
When it is stated that 5-7 frames is sufficient for successful wintering - people are puzzled - how can this be?


The real issue is this - a sub-standard hive for northern wintering - which inherently requires a very strong cluster for successful wintering.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> It is 35F and my Russian bees and Carniolan mutts are flying


Not necessarily good.
I personally don't want my bees to be flying in such weather.

It means they are toasty in the hives and they don't cluster up as much - that's maybe good.
But this also means you are loosing worker bees - the most valuable bees of the season.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

jtgoral said:


> It is 35F and my Russian bees and Carniolan mutts are flying


Mine came out last week at those temps. I had a water feeder out and they were using it. I noticed that some were on cleansing flights, but hardly any bees were dead in the snow at the end of the day. They seemed to stay close to the sun warmed hive and find their way back.

This week at the same temps. less are flying, maybe they got their water 'fix' and pooped out.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ursa_minor said:


> Mine came out last week at those temps. I had a water feeder out and they were using it. I noticed that some were on cleansing flights, but hardly any bees were dead in the snow at the end of the day. They seemed to stay close to the sun warmed hive and find their way back.
> 
> This week at the same temps. less are flying, maybe they got their water 'fix' and pooped out.


Those bees that could not differentiate between bright sky and bright snow seemed to have disappeared from my colonies too. Supposed to be minus 15C. the next two nights then warming up a bit but keep your parka handy.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> Supposed to be minus 15C. the next two nights then warming up a bit but keep your parka handy.


Flip!!! we had the last 3 nights of -17C and the way it is going I will need my parka well into June.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

I use heavy insulation on top but just wood on the side walls. In the past this has worked well but this year I lost 2 of 3 hives, and last year I also lost 3 hives this way, I think due to the cluster moving away from the food and getting trapped. 

All of the cases of starvation with the clusters either in a corner or against the back wall, as far from the bottom entrance as possible. I am trying to remember a case of the cluster being centered or at the front and dying, and can't recall any. Next year I plan to put sugar block more widely spaced-towards the back, instead of a narrow footprint centered on top the hive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AR1 said:


> I use heavy insulation on top but just wood on the side walls.


AR1,
Don't know your equipment availability, but I like seeing that 6x6 colony I am wintering in the 10F boxes for my student.
Not that I enjoy getting inside it at the moment (and so I did not yet) - but for the bees this seems a very good setup.
This box-inside-box setup is really performing well in our location if Lang is used.

Since you OA treat and still some bees are lost - equipment reconfiguration is to consider.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

R10+ on top and R5 on the sides tape up any gaps.
I setup the table saw and rip full sheets of pink to size.

Box inside a box is cool but even better for multiple colonies to share the heating bill.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JustBees said:


> Box inside a box is cool but even better for multiple colonies to share the heating bill.


Not always possible.
For sure not possible for me logistically.
In fact, not necessary - though sounds good.
Of course, in nature the "multiple colonies do not share the heating bill".


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> ... but in a _warm climate_ can run into problems.


Derek Mitchell often refers to this study from Saudi Arabia where they found that, _'The heat stress on the honey bees was higher in the normal beehives than in the modified beehives. One might expect the honey bee workers in normal beehives to waste more energy performing effective thermoregulation than those in the modified beehives.'_



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259623172_Honey_Bee_Colonies_Performance_Enhance_By_Newly_Modified_Beehives


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

look up the difference between hot and cold roofing. it is also climate dependant, just like beekeeping.
to not condense, the insulation needs to be thick enough such that the dew point remains within the insulative barrier, often times foam board which is non-permeable. 
one can easily achieve R-21 hive roofs (as claimed be the reflectix label) by using a layer of reflectix over colony, then shallow or medium super, then another layer of reflectix, and finally shimmed cover or inner/outter cover combo. its all about the ir gap. i do this with some random pieces of foam board in the super as well. no top vent. no insulation on sides. my climate is damp northwest new jersey. took thirty hives into this winter, mostly single deeps. 3 losses: a five frame nuc that was getting robbed out in fall, a single that the queen didnt lay well in fall and couldnt get young population, and a double absolutly packed with bees that the queen failed/disappeard in winter. note that this double was one of two double that i DID run upper entrances on. no specific upper entrances on singles, but some have a 7/16" hole drilled in hand hold. i did this when i was scared to not have an upper entrance. i no longer drill holes in perfectly fine equipment.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

COAL REAPER said:


> look up the difference between hot and cold roofing. it is also climate dependant, just like beekeeping.
> to not condense, the insulation needs to be thick enough such that the dew point remains within the insulative barrier, often times foam board which is non-permeable.
> one can easily achieve R-21 hive roofs (as claimed be the reflectix label) by using a layer of reflectix over colony, then shallow or medium super, then another layer of reflectix, and finally shimmed cover or inner/outter cover combo. its all about the ir gap. i do this with some random pieces of foam board in the super as well. no top vent. no insulation on sides. my climate is damp northwest new jersey. took thirty hives into this winter, mostly single deeps. 3 losses: a five frame nuc that was getting robbed out in fall, a single that the queen didnt lay well in fall and couldnt get young population, and a double absolutly packed with bees that the queen failed/disappeard in winter. note that this double was one of two double that i DID run upper entrances on. no specific upper entrances on singles, but some have a 7/16" hole drilled in hand hold. i did this when i was scared to not have an upper entrance. i no longer drill holes in perfectly fine equipment.


Hot Florida for those who watch the thread: A Brief Overview of Insulation Requirements in Florida


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

jtgoral said:


> Now my goal is to repeat it over and over again.


Yup, that's the key - having similar results over multiple years. Positive results.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

JustBees said:


> Once I got all the extra syrup out of the box (from over feeding) Humidity has leveled off right where it needs to be.
> I think an upper vent may be beneficial when they are drying nectar/syrup.


That's been my experience. Once I stopped feeding late into the season, my moisture problems went away. I always used top insulation in my hives. Now I have a rule to not feed liquid beyond October 1 ( more like the first week of October in reality ).


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

Here near Topeka Kansas. 
After doing much reading on this site several months ago and reading Derek Mitchel's study and Bill Hesbach's thoughts on the subject I converted all colonies to the condensing concept. 

What that ended up looking like is R10 XPS on all 4 sides. I replaced all inner covers with a sheet of thickish clear polyvinyl. I laid some sticks between topbars and polyvinyl to let the bees walk up there. I put an empty medium on top of the clear poly and cut R10 XPS foam board to fit in the lower part of the medium super. I gave each colony a frame feeder filled with water and reduced the bottom entrances to 3/4 inch opening. All had solid bottom boards. 

In late February I gave each some pollen sub but they have eaten little as real pollen became available shortly after. I thought that one colony had gone queenless but found a golfball size patch of brood a month later. Last time I checked that brood is on two deep frames, filling about 20 % of each frame.

All colonies treated such are survivors.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

my rituals for next winter.
no Screened BBs, all screened BB hives are perished.
eliminate upper entrance. these needed to eliminate early and some bees in the snow and some poop on the hive fronts.
use 2 inch foam on the sides and 4 on top

Visited my north yard yesterday was 11F in the morning and warmed to a balmy 16F by 2pm.
Was cutting firewood.
will be past April 1 to eliminate for this batch.

GG


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Please don't call it a condensing hive, that is a word given to a hive style by folks that don't thoroughly understand thermodynamics. (not that I do completely)

Insulation is the difference and the goal is to prevent condensation on the bottom of the lid.
Best to call it what it is, an insulated hive.


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## Akademee (Apr 5, 2020)

I am trying to do a complete 180 on my stance on hive ventilation this year. Used to give them as much ventilation as possible, survival has been okay, but could be better. I am looking forward to seeing what happens. I do use quilt boxes and I don't insulate the sides. The quilt board takes care of any condensation dripping onto the cluster. But I figure that I actually want a little condensation in the hives, particularly on the sides where it is no threat to the cluster, but can act as a winter water source for them. If the side walls are cold (uninsulated), then it should condense water for the bees if the inside has been propolized after a season or two of use. Its all theory right now, I am excited to see what happens in practice.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Akademee said:


> But I figure that I actually want a little condensation in the hives, particularly on the sides where it is no threat to the cluster, but can act as a winter water source for them. If the side walls are cold (uninsulated), then it should condense water for the bees if the inside has been propolized after a season or two of use.


this is why i top insulate only. theres a video on youtube 'thirst of the hive' i beleive from national honey show. bees need water to dilute honey to use. its just really bad to have it dripping on the cluster from the top. i often see icicles hanging down from my entrances. it took me a while to not worry, but it is fine. dry top, wet sides, bees use water as need, excess drips out front.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

My set up for next winter is to increase to 4 deep hives and since my upper entrance and extra top insulation did work so far, two will be done same as this year, cause it worked. Two will be done like the Russian videos where the nest is condensed in the middle with insulation boards, space in the hive is left open on both sides but with heavy insulation on the top less on the sides and with bottom entrances.

I have not decided if all should have a plastic cover for condensation or if I should just do one of each. Decisions, decisions, I will cross that bridge when I know that the 'all clear' signal for live hives in the fall is evident.

ETA: I cannot go into the hives yet to check the frames of stores, but I am impatient to do so and see how much they consumed, where in the hive, and calculate how much sugar they used up, and how many bees are surviving. My stethoscope this morning tells me all are buzzing well, all are up on the sugar.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

JustBees said:


> Please don't call it a condensing hive, that is a word given to a hive style by folks that don't thoroughly understand thermodynamics. (not that I do completely)
> 
> Insulation is the difference and the goal is to prevent condensation on the bottom of the lid.
> Best to call it what it is, an insulated hive.


+5
I do not know the other way how to give you 5 thumbs up. Maybe there is a way but I was brewing a beer for last three hours...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Some people feel that condensation is bad PERIOD! The term condensing raises needless alarm. I expect to see condensation occur on the lower reaches of the hive bodies because they are below the dew point of the air in the upper hive area occupied by the bees. Bees need 60 to 70% humidity and _as long as the ceiling above them is above the dew point of their warmed air, condensation can not occur there._ That same air with the same amount of moisture, most definitely will start to drop moisture as it cools off in contact with the cooler sides and lower reaches of the hive. This will be below the cluster level.

I too, stop my front insulation just short of the top of hive front. The idea being to provide an area with a bit of free moisture if the bees need water, but that idea may not be necessary. With the film of plastic loosely covering the frame tops there is a bit of a fog of moisture occurring at the outer edges of the covering sheet. The bees can be seen licking this up, so it is possible they dont have to go all the way to the front of the hive for water. Any condensation there would merely run down the inside front wall. If they chose to go the front, the temperature at the front of frame ends would allow them to do so. I have peeked in on some pretty cold days and the bees are still mobile on frame tops.

A well insulated condensing hive definitely does not result in water dripping on the bees! I think another name should be given, since it gives a lot of people the *"willies"*! 

I have 9 of 10 colonies alive. One 4 over 4 nuc gave up the ghost in Dec. some time and appeared to have queen failure and winter bees were not produced. She was suspect in the fall, but understandably as her shipment got lost on the long weekend in July and she nearly drowned in the melted cage candy.

I dont doubt that success of this concept lies in the amount of insulation on the upper portion of colonies, and most especially the roof. At least 60% of heat loss is here despite being only about one quarter of the upper surface area. What is the optimum level of insulation will surely depend on your local temperature experience as well as shelter and wind exposure. Just doing away with upper entrance or restricting it severely, will be a big energy savings compared to the concept of condensation control by the abundance of air flow which has been the common solution in the central portions of N. America for hundreds of years.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

crofter said:


> Just doing away with upper entrance or restricting it severely, will be a big energy savings compared to the concept of condensation control by the abundance of air flow which has been the common solution in the central portions of N. America for hundreds of years.


Interesting. The common method that worked for 'hundreds of years'. We should be trying to do better, but if it worked for hundreds of years it probably is already pretty good. What has changed is the mites. Bees need that little bit of extra benefit that they didn't before.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

AR1 said:


> Interesting. The common method that worked for 'hundreds of years'. We should be trying to do better, but if it worked for hundreds of years it probably is already pretty good. What has changed is the mites. Bees need that little bit of extra benefit that they didn't before.


Mites and the 20 or more virus types that are vectored by them! 
I dont buy the appeal to antiquity; remember leeches and bloodletting? and the pre Gallileo mindset. The difference in agricultural practices now, also hurts the bees game. We want them, not to merely survive, but to thrive! Bees in Canada used to be shaken out in the fall, but cross border importation put an end to that. We had to come up with more efficient wintering propositions.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

crofter said:


> Mites and the 20 or more virus types that are vectored by them!
> I dont buy the appeal to antiquity; remember leeches and bloodletting? and the pre Gallileo mindset. The difference in agricultural practices now, also hurts the bees game.


Leeches continue to be used in medicine. I have only seen it once in the last 5 years, but the doc ordered them and we RNs applied them.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I was suprised to see that a totally naked colony without any insulation around the sides but just the top insulation seem to have fared just fine, but with MUCH LESS food than a similar colony with side insulation. I know for a fact that they both went into winter with similar food stores. 

Both went into winter with small clusters, and both came out of winter with small clusters. The insulated one had about double the food as the other.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

AR1 said:


> Leeches continue to be used in medicine. I have only seen it once in the last 5 years, but the doc ordered them and we RNs applied them.


OK, I will fold on the leeches but hold onto Galilleo!  No doubt the new diseases plus the guaranteed distribution continent wide for pollination plus nuc and package sales adds to the burden of keeping bees alive. All causes add up and some are hard to do anything about. If a better system of wintering is low hanging fruit, why not pick it. For many in the North the cold and extreme length of winter is the biggy. If the colony is carrying much of a mite load they usually are toast. Never went that route of seeing how many mites they can tolerate. There has been a fair bit of research into the effect mite related concerns interfere with bee nutrition, thermoregulation, and stores consumption.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

crofter said:


> OK, I will fold on the leeches but hold onto Galilleo!  No doubt the new diseases plus the guaranteed distribution continent wide for pollination plus nuc and package sales adds to the burden of keeping bees alive. All causes add up and some are hard to do anything about. If a better system of wintering is low hanging fruit, why not pick it.


No doubt. As you say, conditions have changed. Even marginal benefits can make a difference, added together.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

AR1 said:


> No doubt. As you say, conditions have changed. Even marginal benefits can make a difference, added together.


+1
death by 1000 cuts comes to mind so perhaps Life by a 1000 Band-Aids is also a truism.
many little things, added to gather

GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> ... many little things, added to gather


Walt Wright called them the '5 percenters'.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> Walt Wright called them the '5 percenters'.


well then you only need 20 not 1000

GG


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

username00101 said:


> I was suprised to see that a totally naked colony without any insulation around the sides but just the top insulation seem to have fared just fine, but with MUCH LESS food than a similar colony with side insulation. I know for a fact that they both went into winter with similar food stores.
> 
> Both went into winter with small clusters, and both came out of winter with small clusters. The insulated one had about double the food as the other.


The RHBA folks mentioned in 1 of their studies that adding insulation to the top reduced food consumption by ~1/3, but had no direct link on survival (assuming adequate stores in both groups). I do some top, but not sides in my few Lang hives. Given mine go down to 27 bees by January there is virtually no chance they’ll starve outright, but getting fooled into heating a tiny patch of brood when a cold snap hits is a real possibility.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> well then you only need 20 not 1000


I like the way you think!


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

JustBees said:


> Please don't call it a condensing hive, that is a word given to a hive style by folks that don't thoroughly understand thermodynamics. (not that I do completely)
> 
> Insulation is the difference and the goal is to prevent condensation on the bottom of the lid.
> Best to call it what it is, an insulated hive.


I studied thermodynamics, but never actually understood it.
This is more like heat transfer, though. A much easier subject.
No dealing with entropy, enthalpy, and all of that.
Just condensing heat exchangers.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

JustBees said:


> Insulation is the difference and the goal is to prevent condensation on the bottom of the lid.
> Best to call it what it is, an insulated hive.


Not trying to argue, just trying to clarify the intent (at least from Bill Hesbach's POV)-

From Dr. Dewey Caron's article (quoting Bill):

'The condensing colony has added insulation at the top of the colony and no upper vents to avoid cold air drafts and loss of heat. The idea is to hold the “heat pool” at the top of the colony so the bees don’t need to generate as much heat to replace that being lost. The moisture does not condense on an inner surface at the top of the hive. It is distributed to the sides and circulated downwards. On the coldest days it might appear as frost at the side of the box.'

So I think the distinction is not so much insulation or no, but ventilation or no.

If we decide we are not going to ventilate, we must accept that condensation may form inside the cavity- our job then is to push any condensate away from over top the cluster to the periphary- thus installing insulation overhead to keep the 'heat pool' above the dewpoint.

So maybe the correct term might be the 'Non-Ventilated Condensation-Control Colony'. doesn't have quite the same ring...😉





__





Ventilating vs. Condensing Winter Colony – Willamette Valley Beekeepers Association







wvbahive.org


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Well, it is too cold here to go digging in the hives yet, but it looks as if they all came through the winter just fine so far.
That is good, as there is no need to shade the truth. I am often tempted to portray my results in a more positive light, but this year there is no need to so far. I suppose other beekeepers have similar struggles.

With 5 hives, I have no hope of finding universal truths of beekeeping. I don't really know how much food they went into winter with. I try not to look in the hive once it is in winter configuration, as I fear disturbing the bees preparations and messing up their propolis seals. They were all pretty full on 18 deep frames, so they should have plenty of food. they were all insulated with foamboard, R10 sides, R20 top. One had a 1/2 inch by 2 inch top entrance, the rest were restricted to a less than 1/4 inch hole for the thermometer probe. The bottom is sort of screened, in an indirect way, and entrances were restricted to 2 half inch diameter holes through 2 inch lumber.

I opened up the top entrances a few weeks ago, when we had a warm spell, and never got around to closing them, as I suppose with brood rearing going on, the amount of water generated in the hive will go up dramatically. I have noticed wet insides of hives and mold during spring buildup before.

My bees are mutts with different habits. Some of them have hundreds of bees flying when it gets above 50F, but one hive only has a few. Opening the lid, it looks to have a similar number of bees, but hard to tell in a 3-up stack. At the moment, the hive I left a top entrance on looks the same as the others. If I get a warm day I will check and see how much they ate. I measured top of hive temperatures intermittently through the winter, but my conclusion is it correlates best with cluster location in the hive. When the cluster moves up (usually on a warm day) the top temps run about 70F, when it moves to the bottom (again, they move on warm days, or so it appears from my statistically irrelevant sample) the top temp drops to about 40-50F.
Arguably, it takes less food to maintain that temperature if there is less airflow.

That is the only interesting result from my measuring - that the upper air temperature averaged 6 degrees colder in the hive with a top entrance than an adjacent hive with no top entrance. The two averaged 26F above the outside ambient air temperature. However, as I pointed out before, the result is statistically meaningless.

Closing off my top entrances didn't appear to hurt anything.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Litsinger said:


> Not trying to argue, just trying to clarify the intent (at least from Bill Hesbach's POV)-
> 
> From Dr. Dewey Caron's article (quoting Bill):
> 
> ...


i venture to argue (well, respectfully hypothesize rather than argue) that the distinction lies in the top insulation AND lack of side insulation. it is at the sides that vaper is permitted to condense. thus allowing the bees access to liquid water. in building construction sciences, the main focus is not on keeping water out, but on facilitating its escape from the structure, whether vapor or driven liquid.
again, the thickness of insulation is a critical detail in order to keep the dewpoint within the insulative media.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

A Novice said:


> Closing off my top entrances didn't appear to hurt anything.


this year may not be appropriate to hang you hat on and changes. seams to me that most had a high survivability this year accross the board.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

A Novice said:


> I studied thermodynamics, but never actually understood it.
> This is more like heat transfer, though. A much easier subject.
> No dealing with entropy, enthalpy, and all of that.
> Just condensing heat exchangers.


It is all thermodynamics and enthalpy  

Searching for _enthalpy_ Wikipedia gives this:
_The *enthalpy of condensation* (or *heat of condensation*) is by definition equal to the enthalpy of vaporization with the opposite sign: enthalpy changes of vaporization are always positive (heat is absorbed by the substance), whereas enthalpy changes of condensation are always negative (heat is released by the substance). _

Bees are *HVAC* of the hive. In my area they are HV*AC* for a *smaller part of the year* using on purpose _enthalpy of vaporization _and for the most part of the year they are *H*VAC where a byproduct of heating is_ enthalpy of condensation._ In Florida it is the other way around, I think.

When the bees are *AC* they waste energy for bringing and vaporizing water to remove the heat and making less honey. When they are *H* they waste their energy and sugar/honey to heat the hive.

Every hive is insulated as long as it has walls and the roof in my opinion. In a poorly insulated wooden hive there is much more HVAC related waste then in a well insulated hive all year around.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

username00101 said:


> Both went into winter with small clusters, and both came out of winter with small clusters. The insulated one had about double the food as the other.


so the question then becomes: do we as beekeepers put our efforts into feeding up to weight in the fall or insulating sides where mpoisture can be trapped between exterior of wood boxes and insulation ultimatley shortening the life of equipment?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

COAL REAPER said:


> insulating sides where mpoisture can be trapped between exterior of wood boxes and insulation ultimatley shortening the life of equipment?


so is this moisture, coming thru the wall from the inside, or dripping in due to the lid being too small?
If I side insulate, I have lids that cover the insulation as well.

IE if you plan to use 2 inch XPS the lid should be 5 inches bigger than the hive, 2.5 per side.

Most of my hives are under a roof so I do not see the moisture between the insulation and exterior wall.

GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

COAL REAPER said:


> so the question then becomes: do we as beekeepers put our efforts into feeding up to weight in the fall or insulating sides where mpoisture can be trapped between exterior of wood boxes and insulation ultimatley shortening the life of equipment?


My wooden hives are propolized inside so the moisture is no problem. Poly hives do not care about moisture either. 

There is no way for moisture to be trapped between a wooden wall and insulation in my case either. See 2021_2022_winter [Jacek's Beekeeping]


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> The RHBA folks mentioned in 1 of their studies that adding insulation to the top reduced food consumption by ~1/3, but had no direct link on survival (assuming adequate stores in both groups)


then they did not do the test in the north zones 4,3,2,1
the 1/3 extra, if present can be consumed and converted to heat.
however that will also create 1/3 more solids, in some places that puts the bees over the line and pooping all over can be the result.
agree TN likely a non issue, northern states and Ca can be the demise of the hive.

do you know "Where they did the test Joe?

hence my dislike for "studies" one needs to understand what where how on the study, often has no bearing for me.
this last winter, All the hives with upper entrance, had poop inside, All the hives with out did not. lots of honey left, room in the gut of the bees not so much.

For Me, was a good data point to add to the thread on condensing hives, I'll likely modify all the quilt boxes this summer. Also no hive with a ScBB and Upper entrance survived. so air flow thru the hive needs be slowed or stopped.
I may be a slow learner but do eventually get the point.

GG

edit p.s.
the argument about "bees heat the cluster not the hive" IMO is also resolved for me.
With upper entrance they can never get the hive heated up no matter how hard they try.
most of these were locked on brood , food 4 inches away and dead. But lucky me no moisture or hive damage from moisture.......
to be clear the bees heat the cluster true but then the cluster heats the hive.
Hence less consumption with heavy insulated/foam hives.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> My wooden hives are propolized inside so the moisture is no problem. Poly hives do not care about moisture either.
> 
> There is no way for moisture to be trapped between a wooden wall and insulation in my case either. See 2021_2022_winter [Jacek's Beekeeping]


right the propolis is the seal, with the hive in hive one can help with a sheet of plastic.
IF the quilt box is added too late and this propolis cannot be done before winter it can act like an upper entrance.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If there *were *a tradeoff of wintering success for some shortening of woodenware I would accept it willingly. The price of a queen is twice the price of two hive bodies.! I dont see it though. I have used a sheet of homosote as inner cover above the frame top plastic fillm. It can be lifted and replaced with no resealing problem as it has enough give and comformity for a no gap seal which the bees dont propolize. A whole sheet or only a rim of Reflectix or similar material would also not interfere with a no gaps seal if you dispensed with the homosote.

I had left a 9 or 10 inch square box in the center of the inner cover. Through this well I was able to observe by just pulling insulation from the inside of the observation well. Plastic film was still in place so very very little cold exposure. I could also if I wish add top feed or patties through this hole but I did not put any top feed on. I may or may not, still dithering on this.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

And so how is it the bees *thrive *in a frozen through and through in winter live pine tree?
Must be terrible living. 

Those who have split the raw logs in winter know what I mean - best time to split wood. It is virtually like glass due to frozen moisture within it.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

A Novice said:


> I studied thermodynamics, but never actually understood it.
> This is more like heat transfer, though. A much easier subject.
> No dealing with entropy, enthalpy, and all of that.
> Just condensing heat exchangers.


Condensing hive is the best term. A condensing hive permits for safe condensation away from the sensitive cluster. When a top vent is given to a hive a lot of that water is vented out of the hive and doesn't condense in the hive, but outside in the environment.

Condensing hive is really the most appropriate term, which is why it's been published as such.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

crofter said:


> If there *were *a tradeoff of wintering success for some shortening of woodenware I would accept it willingly. The price of a queen is twice the price of two hive bodies.! I dont see it though.


likely a stark difference between NJ and CAN, but i dont know how i would manage if i had 100% success year over year. i am trying to dial in my efforts with a goal of 10-15% loss. i want some empty drawn comb to work with in the spring before i can get queens or rear my own. the less time/energy/money i can put in and maintain that 85-90% survivablity the better.


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## Tom McCaffery (Mar 31, 2021)

I followed the advice of a club member who suggested putting the daily newspaper on the top of the inner cover to absorb moisture and change out weekly. This has worked well as all 5 hives made it through winter. The one hive I lost was robbed out and absconded before winter. I did not insulate my hives this year but plan to going forward.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

COAL REAPER said:


> this year may not be appropriate to hang you hat on and changes. seams to me that most had a high survivability this year accross the board.


True enough.
I try not to draw conclusions from statistically irrelevant results.
I am happy the hives survived (so far) is all. 
I am not at all convinced one way or another regarding top entrances. Too much armchair science.
In beekeeping, things work. Until they don't. 
The variability of bees and their capacity for adaptation make experimental science difficult in beekeeping. Randy Oliver's experiments are illustrative of that. His sample sizes are typically marginal. A common problem with experimental science since large sample sizes are prohibitively expensive.
And of course, differences in location swamp most other variables.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tom McCaffery said:


> who suggested putting the daily newspaper on the top of the inner cover to absorb moisture and *change out weekly.*


That is a LOT of maintenance.
Those beekeepers in Siberia who winter the bees under the snow will not appreciate. LOL


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> I try not to draw conclusions from statistically irrelevant results.


And what about the sample sizes of 10-15 data points that are, indeed, good enough?
Good enough data to make good enough decisions.
That is good enough for me.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

A Novice said:


> ...
> I am not at all convinced one way or another regarding top entrances. Too much armchair science.
> ...


Really armchair science? Maybe some of thousands German, Polish, Swedish read this and could ask: upper entrance? What is it?

I would stick with whatever works for you


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

COAL REAPER said:


> likely a stark difference between NJ and CAN, but i dont know how i would manage if i had 100% success year over year. i am trying to dial in my efforts with a goal of 10-15% loss. i want some empty drawn comb to work with in the spring before i can get queens or rear my own. the less time/energy/money i can put in and maintain that 85-90% survivablity the better.


True enough.
Everybody has a different situation.
Around here, most sideliner/small commercial guys have about 30% losses, so that isn't a problem for them. Bigger commercial guys are migratory, so wintering is different. 30% losses are actually pretty manageable if you are splitting for swarm control. You may buy a few packages, but that gives you some control over hive numbers.
It is the backyard guys who have time to mother hen each hive that have 100% success wintering. The cost/benefit tradeoff isn't as much of an issue with them.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

My two hives at the farm seem strong. I used a modified version of top insulation and no top entrance. I used my 5 1/2 inch quilt box, a feed shim with a 1/2 inch round hole and a partial sheet of plastic over the sugar blocks. I had the top off the hive on a somewhat warmer day back in January and did note condensation on the plastic sheet near the sidewalls of the hive. This makes a source of water available to the bees.

The 1/2 inch round hole greatly reduces ventilation of the hive, provides a backup entrance for blockage of the bottom entrance, and provides for cleansing flights.

I don't think anyone wants 5 gallons of water condensing on the interior of the side walls, unless one has a screened bottom board. Here we get debris on the bottom board of dead bees and wax cappings. It can easily become a soggy and moldy problem and not good for the bees.

I think there needs to be a plan to remove most of the moisture via bottom entrance ventilation (Etienne Tardiff method comes to mind), quilt boxes, screened bottom boards..


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

When I cut the XPS to fit in the medium to be placed over the clear poly for top insulation, I cut some to fit snugly and others to fit loosely. I often found condensate along the outer edges of the loose fit ones but in the snug ones a few times I found a slight condensate in one or two corners. (I checked almost daily because I wanted to observe what was going on in there and did see bees taking the water in.) I never found this moisture frozen but the coldest it got here this season was -2 F, 

On another topic, last night we had quite a strong thunderstorm here and I found one lid blown off. Fortunately, the clear poly remained propolized to the top of the brood box. The bees were fine.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Certainly folks in mid and southern states will not need the same level of insulation to maintain the top of occupied hive space above the dew point. That is key issue. Wintering losses of 30% by the commercials in these areas might be a decent labor and materials cost benefit proposition. The same levels of preparations (including mite levels) in northern states and Canada would result in much higher losses that would be economically untenable.

If a person is happy with present results, all is good. If not, consider options. Barring one disastrous winter which I attribute to suffocation from unusual conditions, I have had near 100% winter survival. My level of fussing would not have been feasible for someone at sideliner or commercial numbers. In addition to insulation and moisture control I have been able to maintain extremely low mite levels that would be hard to match in most surroundings. Hive arrangements which will allow the hive to function with zero or approaching that, upper ventilation will not by itself create miracles. It may be a useful tool for people who are focused on varroa tolerance/ resistance etc.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

GregB said:


> And what about the sample sizes of 10-15 data points that are, indeed, good enough?
> Good enough data to make good enough decisions.
> That is good enough for me.


Statistical inference is the third weakest form of evidence.
(the weakest is testimonial, the second weakest is case study)

The strongest is conformance to a physical law or principle, such as time to fall a distance conforms roughly to the law of universal gravitation. (real science)

15 data points can have adequate statistical significance, provided the data is apparently free of random variability, and you can be assured that confounding variables are well controlled.

Beekeeping isn't like that.

I have had 100% survival with a top entrance and no insulation.
I have had 0% survival with a top entrance and no insulation.
Same hives, different year.
I have had 100% survival with top entrance and top insulation.
I have had 100% survival with top entrance and full insulation.
To make things more complicated, I have an indirect screened bottom, and my bees are in a 3 deep 6 frame hive, with another hive sharing the same center wall (sometimes). So generalizing my results to a single deep is not obviously valid. Also, my hive stands average 18 inches high...
My sample sizes are way to small to draw any conclusions from.

EXCEPT THIS: Given enough food and a live queen (and if you control the mites) the bees are likely (but not assured) to survive.

Until I see some statistical analysis of data, I consider main effects based conclusions to be nothing. Well, maybe confirmation bias.

In your case Greg, all of your hives are different. Different queens, different colony sizes, different hive designs.
You can keep bees with some success, no doubt. But ferreting out the relative benefits of wintering strategies isn't possible in your operation.

A good experiment would be: Start with sister queens from an AI mother. (one drone or brother drones) Shake all of your bees together, and then separate them into equal sized packages by weight. Start them on hives as close to identical as possible, placed at least 10 feet apart to minimize the effects of drifting.

If you do that with 15 hives for your experiment group, and 15 hives for your control, you might get a statistically significant result, and you might not. To find out, you will need to compare the variation between groups to the variation within each group.

If your study outcome variable is survival, and you have 100% survival in both groups, you can conclude that the variable studied (say insulation) is not demonstrated to produce any difference in survival (accept the null hypothesis).

If your study variable is survival, and you have 100% survival in 1 group, 0% survival in the other group, you can conclude that the variable studied (say treating for mites) is demonstrated to produce a difference in survival (reject the null hypothesis).

However, in the real world, if you start in the spring with 15 supposedly identical colonies, and manage them "the same", by the end of the season one or two may have produced 100 lbs of honey, 1 may have gone queenless, 1 will have swarmed, 4 will have superseded, etc. Lots of variability. Maybe a couple of hives will have been attacked by wasps, one will have had a bout with chalkbrood, hive beetles may be somewhat of a problem in the hives that superseded (or not). It is because of the inherent variability of honeybee colonies that large sample sizes are needed.
This is especially true when trying to determine the relative merits of different management techniques which produce relatively minor differences in outcomes.

Unless I see a "p" value of .01 or less, I don't consider an experiment to be conclusive. With a "p" value of 0.5 or less, the same experiment repeated independently with the same results is persuasive.

Always expect confirmation bias to affect experiments. Everyone shades the data in the direction they want/expect it to go. So the results always look better than they are. (except Randy Oliver, who presents his data warts and all.)

Glad everybody's bees made it through the winter.
Don't see anything persuasive one way or another on top entrances. With or without, the bees appear to do OK, except when they don't.
However, that probably varies a lot, depending on where you are.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> 15 data points can have adequate statistical significance, provided the data is apparently free of random variability, and you can be assured that confounding variables are well controlled.
> 
> *Beekeeping isn't like that.*


So...
I have 10-15 hives dying every winter due - *not-treated.*
For 5 years.
Random occurrence?
Should one be retrying for 10 more years?
Or should it be a sample of 150 hives - with two groups side-by-side?


Sounds like *good enough evidence* to me as it is.

Yeah, all those significant P values, etc.
Sure.


Now - IF I manage to have 90-100% survival over the same 10-15 units due to a *single *management change. 
Is it not good enough survivability change for a practical beekeeping conclusion that this management change works?

Gimme a break, Novice. 
Beekeeping is *exactly *like that - it is about "good enough" data and "good enough" management so to achieve "good enough" results. Practical beekeeping - to be sure.

As far as scientific talks are concerned (e.g. new anti-varroa treatment efficacy) - that is a different subject - not here.

Totally agree - this is NOT good enough approach to land a craft onto Mars or to come up with new COVID vaccine.
Not even close.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

jtgoral said:


> Really armchair science? Maybe some of thousands German, Polish, Swedish read this and could ask: upper entrance? What is it?
> 
> I would stick with whatever works for you


True enough, lots of people appear to have success with no top entrance.
What would their results have been if they had included top entrances?
We don't know.
So I make no conclusions yet as to which is better.
I do note the bees move around more in hives w/o a top entrance, but that is not a statistically significant result. It suggests an experiment, is all.

Agreed, I should stick with what works. However, it seems that just about anything will work, including no insulation and an upper entrance. (well, maybe R3 or so on the top, but that hardly counts.) No quilt box, nothing.

So the question is what is better.

That isn't clear to me.

Since I need to feed in the fall in any case, and insulating hives is somewhat labor intensive and expensive, and the storage problem for all that insulation is real, 10 pounds less feed ($5) may not be an attractive benefit.

So yeah. Do what has worked in the past. Better to winter in a temperature controlled shed at 42F, but the cost/benefit of that is not good for small scale guys.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

GregB said:


> So...
> I have 10-15 hives dying every winter due - *not-treated.*
> For 5 years.
> Random occurrence?
> ...


Please read my entire post before replying. I am sorry it is so long. But I covered that explicitly.
Thanks!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> Please read my entire post before replying. I am sorry it is so long. But I covered that explicitly.
> Thanks!


Fine; will do and redo.



> In your case Greg, all of your hives are different. Different queens, different colony sizes, different hive designs.


Nevertheless - my point is that for certain level of "good enough" finding these differences are NOT significant. They really don't matter.
In fact, we want certain level of normal variability included - we do want it built-in as this variability is normal and expected within the experiment range.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

mgolden said:


> My two hives at the farm seem strong. I used a modified version of top insulation and no top entrance. I used my 5 1/2 inch quilt box, a feed shim with a 1/2 inch round hole and a partial sheet of plastic over the sugar blocks. I had the top off the hive on a somewhat warmer day back in January and did note condensation on the plastic sheet near the sidewalls of the hive. This makes a source of water available to the bees.
> 
> The 1/2 inch round hole greatly reduces ventilation of the hive, provides a backup entrance for blockage of the bottom entrance, and provides for cleansing flights.
> 
> ...


Hats off to anyone who winters in Zone 3b.
It is quite a bit more challenging than zone 5a.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

GregB said:


> Nevertheless - my point is that for certain level of "good enough" finding these differences are NOT significant. They really don't matter.
> In fact, we want certain level of normal variability included - we do want it built-in as this variability is normal and expected within the experiment range.


TO determine if a result is significant, you have to compare the variability between groups to the variability within groups.
The less the variability within each group, the smaller the variability between groups needs to be to be statistically significant.

However, you make a good point.
If you compare (for example) top entrance vs no top entrance for Carniolan bees of a specific subtype, you might get one result which was statistically significant.

However, if you ran the same experiment using Italians, or AMM, you might get the opposite result.

So there is a certain logical tension - in order to get a statistically significant result, you often need to design your experiment so narrowly that it is meaningless.

Experimental science is difficult, expensive, time consuming, uncertain in its outcome, and limited in its applicability.

I much prefer analytical science. It is harder, and takes a lot more math, but it works. That is how you get a rover to mars or build a skyscraper. Experimental "science" is its bastard stepchild.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have to agree with Greg's philosophy here.

I agree that a healthy skepticism is valuable, but despite it often being so, suggesting that almost everyone's reported observations are likely to be either falsified or misconstrued is not very encouraging to anyone seeking improvements. Is demanding a supreme level of accuracy not a bit counter productive to someone attempting improvements?

I have certainly seen ideas put forth that had the apparent value as this. *"My observations are that it is the waving of the tree limbs, that causes the wind to blow"* 
Many others though have been food for thought at least but not to be swallowed whole.

Caveat Emptor!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Posts have come in since I started mine. Agree that bee type can be a huge influence. Other things like the date that winter feeding was completed and the rate of feed, can make a big difference in hive conditions including demographics of bees and initial position of cluster. The best a person can do is understand as many as possible of the affective variables and weigh the probabilities of their relative influence. The weighting of probabilities is certainly as much art as science in beekeeping.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

crofter said:


> I have to agree with Greg's philosophy here.
> 
> I agree that a healthy skepticism is valuable, but despite it often being so, suggesting that almost everyone's reported observations are likely to be either falsified or misconstrued is not very encouraging to anyone seeking improvements. Is demanding a supreme level of accuracy not a bit counter productive to someone attempting improvements?
> 
> ...


Understood.

My perspective is based on having on a few occasions relied on main-effects studies which looked persuasive (on average A was better than B - that is the main effect) which did not rise to the level of statistical significance. (p=0.1, if I remember correctly). Designs based on this optimistic reading of the data subsequently failed to show the expected improvement. This was both professionally embarrassing and expensive. I like it when my stuff works.

It is also based on having done experimental science - the temptation to censor data that doesn't look like you expect it to is real, and it is easy to justify. For example, most of the temperature increase over the last 100 years results from serious minded people looking at historical records and sensoring and adjusting the historical data such that year over year, the past gets colder. I have no doubt they think they are right to do that, and they have plausible reasons for it, but I also note they are quite persuaded it is getting warmer, so of course any data that shows otherwise is suspect.
They may be right, but I am skeptical of their conclusions. I do not know.
This is one of the reasons I avoided experimental science as much as possible. I find the temptation to shade the data the way it should go is almost irresistible. I do not doubt my experience is all that unusual. This is probably why only about half of experiments in the biological sciences which produce statistically significant results are able to be replicated.

I love all the reports about people having good success last winter, and find their descriptions about how they wintered to be interesting and informative. However, without exception these are experiments without controls. So we don't know if they would have done better or worse if they had left the hives in some other configuration.

So this is just a word of caution. You can winter bees with little or no insulation, with any number of entrances. There may be some benefit to adding insulation, especially where it is very cold and dry in winter. There may be some benefit in having no top ventilation. At least where I keep bees, quilt boxes, bee cozies, etc. are unnecessary. A lot of beekeeping is based on superstition. Find something that works in your location, and don't get too carried away.

Sorry if I seem negative.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

A Novice said:


> ...
> 
> Since I need to feed in the fall in any case, and insulating hives is somewhat labor intensive and expensive, and the storage problem for all that insulation is real, 10 pounds less feed ($5) may not be an attractive benefit.
> 
> ...


Insulated hive - one time expense
More honey - probably year after year in insulated hive
Sugar cost - expense year after year in less insulated hive.

Is it realy more expensive to have insulated hive?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

In some locations people feel they need triple deeps and with upper ventilation and still have quite high winter losses. Others are experimenting and having good results wintering single 10 frame deeps which are insulated and without upper vents. Of course it could be coincidence. Undoubtedly there are more case studies on multi level hives with upper entrance.
"You can winter bees with little or no insulation, with any number of entrances. There may be some benefit to adding insulation, especially where it is very cold and dry in winter." 

Certainly there are such places and I have mentioned the probability of diminishing returns in more southerly locations. 

Past experience perhaps has given you a "jaundiced eye" toward any problem solving that does not have a mathematically precise answer. Is that why you seem negative?

.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jtgoral said:


> Insulated hive - one time expense
> More honey - probably year after year in insulated hive
> Sugar cost - expense year after year in less insulated hive.
> 
> Is it realy more expensive to have insulated hive?


 Built in or modular insulation that is easy on and offf and does not interfere with inspections or early spring management would be a real plus. It can be a time consuming nuisance otherwise! Ask me how I know? 

When I am satisfied with concept I will work on a more manageable model. I definitely am not in expansion mode! Right now single Dadant depth or slightly deeper is holding my attention.


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## Einar5107 (Apr 23, 2017)

crofter said:


> In recent years there has been an increasing number of posts suggesting that traditional practice for winter preps has set the scene for humidity levels that are below optimum for the bees. In conventional Langstroth hives with little R value the resulting condensation on undersides of top cover would drip on the bees cluster and be a death sentence. The cure was (and is) to leave a quite large upper entrance or prop the cover up a bit to provide air flow to carry off the moisture. This is somewhat effective in preventing the dripping but possibly prevents the bees from self regulating their desired humidity. The extra air flow carries off considerable heat energy which the bees have to replace and the colder inside hive temperature keeps the bees in tight cluster, hindering their moving to new stores.
> 
> That is a primer on some of the variables concerned that has led to experiments with air exchange out the *bottom* of the hive instead. Some describe as the "condenser hive" but in common usage that term may be more confusing than explanatory. I have experimented in this direction and am impressed by what I have seen of the bees behavior and condition through the winter. I feel that stores consumption has been noticeably less but have only pulled any frames on several hives.
> What is your experience?


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5994976fc534a540838f3351/t/5cc1f0a7419202bb8ede360e/1556213933897/Mitchell+Ratio+Of+Mass.pdf


Trees vs thin-walled hives.


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

I insulated last year with R-5 foam sheets on the outside and 2" aluminized foam on the top, with a small top entrance, and 2 out of 2 hives survived. Both were very small coming out of winter, then exploded in numbers. I went from 2 to 4 hives last year, having caught a couple of my runaway swarms.

This year, I used Reflectix sheet on top, below the 2" aluminized foam under the lid and wrapped the hive in R-13 fiberglass batt insulation, with no top entrances. Two of the hives were wrapped separately, but the other two I scooted together and wrapped together.

All four survived very well, but the early warmth may have had something to do with it, as well as my February open feeding on warm days, which was mobbed on every nice day. So it's hard to say.

One thing is interesting, though. All four hives went into winter about equal. The two hives that were wrapped together came out of winter noticeably bigger than the two that were wrapped individually. But all four have brooded up so much, the difference is getting less noticeable. All four are very active, much more than last year.

After the storms tomorrow, I need to inspect for swarm cells. I saw drones flying for the first time today!


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

I feel we have beaten this topic to death with clubs. What's your upshot? Who is planning to make changes, and what are they? 
I have been playing with this type hive for 3 years, had great results the first year and poor results the last two...but two issues: A very small number of hives in play, and I also changed how I did winter feeding. So, I make no conclusions. I plan to tweak my winter feeding back to what is was the 'successful' year and see if that improves things. I may hollow out a few logs and try for some really thick walled hives.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

crofter said:


> In some locations people feel they need triple deeps and with upper ventilation and still have quite high winter losses. Others are experimenting and having good results wintering single 10 frame deeps which are insulated and without upper vents. Of course it could be coincidence. Undoubtedly there are more case studies on multi level hives with upper entrance.
> "You can winter bees with little or no insulation, with any number of entrances. There may be some benefit to adding insulation, especially where it is very cold and dry in winter."
> 
> Certainly there are such places and I have mentioned the probability of diminishing returns in more southerly locations.
> ...


I'm not brave enough to try to overwinter a single deep, but the equivalent of 16 or so frames was more than sufficient.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> I have to agree with Greg's philosophy here.


Thanks for the support, Frank!


Simply put - are we scientists OR are we managers?
That is the fundamental question.

I am a manager and that's where it ends.
Vast majority of the beekeepers are, in fact, managers (even if backyard managers of only two beehives - still the same).

We must make good enough and timely enough decisions based on the limited information we have collected and/or produced - we do the best we can.
The managers can be and should be curious as to improve our outputs in some way - but this is still "manager-grade" experimentation and no more.

In the end we don't produce much of scientifically valuable information - so no need to pretend about it or require us of any scientifically stringent methodologies.

Some beekeepers are, indeed, scientists and have different requirements and expectation.
But these are very few.
Might as well let them worry of the P-value significance so that they can publish good papers.


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## Justjane (Feb 14, 2021)

crofter said:


> In recent years there has been an increasing number of posts suggesting that traditional practice for winter preps has set the scene for humidity levels that are below optimum for the bees. In conventional Langstroth hives with little R value the resulting condensation on undersides of top cover would drip on the bees cluster and be a death sentence. The cure was (and is) to leave a quite large upper entrance or prop the cover up a bit to provide air flow to carry off the moisture. This is somewhat effective in preventing the dripping but possibly prevents the bees from self regulating their desired humidity. The extra air flow carries off considerable heat energy which the bees have to replace and the colder inside hive temperature keeps the bees in tight cluster, hindering their moving to new stores.
> 
> That is a primer on some of the variables concerned that has led to experiments with air exchange out the *bottom* of the hive instead. Some describe as the "condenser hive" but in common usage that term may be more confusing than explanatory. I have experimented in this direction and am impressed by what I have seen of the bees behavior and condition through the winter. I feel that stores consumption has been noticeably less but have only pulled any frames on several hives.
> What is your experience?


I am a new beekeeper (3 years) and lost all my hives two years ago and this year I did things different.y. I live in the North East…NH and my hives had screened bottom boards, dry sugar for feed, spacer, inner cover then insulating board, medium box with towels for any condensation and then top cover. Hives are booming. No Mould under the top cover like last year…hoping this is the way for me to go


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## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

crofter said:


> In recent years there has been an increasing number of posts suggesting that traditional practice for winter preps has set the scene for humidity levels that are below optimum for the bees. In conventional Langstroth hives with little R value the resulting condensation on undersides of top cover would drip on the bees cluster and be a death sentence. The cure was (and is) to leave a quite large upper entrance or prop the cover up a bit to provide air flow to carry off the moisture. This is somewhat effective in preventing the dripping but possibly prevents the bees from self regulating their desired humidity. The extra air flow carries off considerable heat energy which the bees have to replace and the colder inside hive temperature keeps the bees in tight cluster, hindering their moving to new stores.
> 
> That is a primer on some of the variables concerned that has led to experiments with air exchange out the *bottom* of the hive instead. Some describe as the "condenser hive" but in common usage that term may be more confusing than explanatory. I have experimented in this direction and am impressed by what I have seen of the bees behavior and condition through the winter. I feel that stores consumption has been noticeably less but have only pulled any frames on several hives.
> What is your experience?


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## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

It was a leap of faith for me (though, mostly science-based) to remove all upper entrances and silly moisture quilts from above.

My bees, here in south Tennessee, consume very little food overwinter. They have a 2” piece of insulation above the inner cover (covering any holes) and a thinner piece below the varroa board, below the screened bottom board. I take the lower one out in the heat of the summer.

The outside frames usually have a slight appearance, and odor, of mold formation at this time of year which is exactly where I want it to be. I like that my bees have access to moisture inside their hive all winter. Any excess drips down the colder side walls and through the lower screen.

I’ve never lost a colony overwinter (mainly due to timely oxalic acid sublimation) and plenty of winter food stores. We harvest about 50-100lbs per colony. I don’t feed sugar overwinter. They are now just consuming the last of their honey just as the spring surplus nectar flow is commencing.

I use standard 8 frame Langstroth boxes for everything which my husband puts together. I keep 22 colonies and mentor a dozen beekeepers in the area. Our combined overwinter success is 99%+.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> Thanks for the support, Frank!
> 
> 
> Simply put - are we scientists OR are we managers?
> ...


As you know from mathematical logic OR is true if only the left side is true, only the right side is true or both sides are true


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

username00101 said:


> I'm not brave enough to try to overwinter a single deep, but the equivalent of 16 or so frames was more than sufficient.


its easy! cuts inspection times and treatment costs in half! just got to be ready to feed.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

COAL REAPER said:


> its easy! cuts inspection times and treatment costs in half! just got to be ready to feed.


How does single brood box cut treatment costs in half? I can maybe, sort of, kind of, see how it may make treatments more effective, but don't understand how it cuts the treatment dose by 50%. Not arguing, just trying to understand.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> As you know from mathematical logic OR is true if only the left side is true, only the right side is true or both sides are true


I clearly meant *exclusive OR* (there is such a thing).


As in "You are FOR Putin" OR "You are AGAINST Putin".

One can not be both, regardless of the logical definition of "inclusive OR" (which in not applicable in the context).

PS: google "exclusive OR"

PPS: I get it - even if you are scientist-beekeeper, you still need to manage your bees (a manager) - but this applies to very, very few (so to apply the same context to any random bee owner).


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

I don't think this subject has been beaten to death. On the contrary, the opinions and observations expressed within this thread prove the subject may not be getting 'enough' attention.


"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music" - Nietzsche


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Marcin said:


> How does single brood box cut treatment costs in half? I can maybe, sort of, kind of, see how it may make treatments more effective, but don't understand how it cuts the treatment dose by 50%. Not arguing, just trying to understand.


i do think they are more effective also due to high density of bees transmitting chemicals.
most treatements are per box or per 5 frames. singles have half as many boxes/frames as doubles. 
example: i will pull 4 medium boxes off my hives at begining of july when dearth hits. slide two apivar strips into a very populus single brood box. a double deep would require 4 strips for a treatment done in this manner.
BUT this thread is about insulation and upper entrances so let me circle back around: IF i used side insulation, it would take half as much side insulation for a single than a double! still typically only one upper entrance though...


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Fewer bees (smaller colonies) equates with less treatment, no? Big colonies (2 or more Deeps) should receive more than a 5 frame NUC or single, no?

After watching hours of Russian and Eastern European beekeepers I'm convinced that side insulating is unnecessary, especially if ample snow fall is a regular thing. Top insulating s/b just common sense imo. Its all the plastic that I'm still wrestling with....gotta watch some more vids before summer takes me outside more than inside.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

drummerboy said:


> Fewer bees (smaller colonies) equates with less treatment, no? Big colonies (2 or more Deeps) should receive more than a 5 frame NUC or single, no?
> 
> After watching hours of Russian and Eastern European beekeepers I'm convinced that side insulating is unnecessary, especially if ample snow fall is a regular thing. Top insulating s/b just common sense imo. Its all the plastic that I'm still wrestling with....gotta watch some more vids before summer takes me outside more than inside.


Clearly top insulation gives more bang for the buck! I think it was E. Tardiff that said 60% of heat loss is from top surface despite it being less than a fifth of hive external surface area.
A few people here are using insulated tops with long insulating sides that come well down on the sides of the upper brood box. Biermann posted some pics of his year around insulated hives in Alberta. Put the R value where it does the most good and dont go far past the point of diminishing returns!


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

i wish this platform was not so cumbersome to share images on. i would love to see others setups. some of my details are on IG: holler_honey_apiaries
something else perhaps. i ran two double deeps at my mothers house with clause hive domes and no top vent. it was interesting experience. she enjoyed being able to peek in the top occationally. often there was condinsation on the dome covering 50-80% of the surface, but never at the highest point right over the cluster. it was not uncommon to see ICE on the INSIDE along the edges, especially corners. medium super was on top of dome, about and inch or two of foam boards, then top cover. right next to those two was onother two double deeps, top vented with inner cover notch, 2" foam board, then outter cover. all had entrance reducer on larger setting and were feed ~2# of sugar brick in february. all equal going in and coming out. excessive stores and 12 frames of brood as of 3/26/2022. this is unprecented this early in the season and affirms that perhaps this year on the east coast is not one to make absolute comparisons. note: moms hives are treated different than my production hives. ultimatly she makes the management decisions after hearing my considerations. limited feeding on these, no supplement last year at all. last spring we took brood from 3 hives to make a split and she went on to harvest over 300#s that summer plus some fall honey.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

username00101 said:


> I'm not brave enough to try to overwinter a single deep, but the equivalent of 16 or so frames was more than sufficient.


One local beekeeper (USDA Zone 5A) who I spy on sometimes was wintering in single deeps, top entrance, no insulation in 19/20 and 20/21. He had 60% losses both years.
This past winter (21/22) he wintered in double deeps and so far has about 80% survival.

He is a small commercial beekeeper, not a particularly good one by all accounts. Last I saw he was using MAQS for mite control.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> I clearly meant *exclusive OR* (there is such a thing).
> 
> 
> As in "You are FOR Putin" OR "You are AGAINST Putin".


It is called XOR not OR. You used OR in first example and XOR in this example. BTW I was a software engineer for over 25 years, last 15 years working for Chicago's trading companies.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> It is called XOR not OR. You used OR in first example and XOR in this example. BTW I was a software engineer for over 25 years, last 15 years working for Chicago's trading companies.


Ahh A fellow bit twiddler.

then there is NAND and NOR

IMO binary thinkers make good beekeepers.
Of course I may be Biased.....

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> It is called XOR not OR. You used OR in first example and XOR in this example. BTW I was a software engineer for over 25 years, last 15 years working for Chicago's trading companies.


Well, no need to get into XOR implementations in C++.
Not necessary on the beekeeping forum.

Let's keep it at the "for Putin" OR "against Putin" level.
Plenty enough and anyone understands.
Back to "good enough".


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

COAL REAPER said:


> i wish this platform was not so cumbersome to share images on.


I see when you joined Beesource, we were using vBulletin, and yes, there were issues uploading photos, especially oversize ones. However, under the current Xenforo photo uploading is considerably simpler. Try it, and If you still see issues, please create a thead on the Feedback Forum with some details.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

photos taken jan 22


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I see when you joined Beesource, we were using vBulletin, and yes, there were issues uploading photos, especially oversize ones. However, under the current Xenforo photo uploading is considerably simpler. Try it, and If you still see issues, please create a thead on the Feedback Forum with some details.


its better, thasnks


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

and mar 26


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Link to pics of my insulation rigs:









Winter Rig







www.beesource.com





The pink panels claim to be R-4.0, but they also claim to be 3/4" when they are really only 5/8". The over-size top covers have a double thickness of insulation panels. I swap solid and screen bottoms in Fall/Spring.

A homasote board goes over the inner cover, which has the center feed-hole unplugged. The homasote is grooved from the center to the edge, matching the notch in the inner cover. The inner cover is reversible, providing space under for patties/sugar in Winter, and using the notch as a top entrance in Summer. There is a 3/4" hole for a top entrance in Winter (which gets plugged when the cover is flipped for Summer).

Winter temps here drop to -25F to -30F (and stay there for as much as six weeks before getting a break), with frequent winds of 40-80mph, occasionally higher gusts. I have had full double deeps blown completely over. One thing is all but guaranteed:

Screened bottoms + no insulation = dead bees.

Uninsulated hives with solid bottoms occasionally survive, but it's fairly uncommon, not to be counted on. Insulation is much cheaper than buying bees every year, and produces far better results. I don't feed in the Fall, or in the Spring, I leave more than enough honey for them. (Although, I may have to reconsider that given that I can no longer work and bees/honey may become my only source of income...provided I can rig a device to lift the boxes- I'm thinking something like the grapple claw in the kiddy machine that grabs the stuffed animals.)


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

jtgoral said:


> It is called XOR not OR. You used OR in first example and XOR in this example. BTW I was a software engineer for over 25 years, last 15 years working for Chicago's trading companies.


Sadly, in written English, the use of XOR is not standard (unlike in written logic or pseudocode) and as a result the use of "or" is ambiguous.
So it is good of Greg to clarify his meaning..


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

crofter said:


> In some locations people feel they need triple deeps and with upper ventilation and still have quite high winter losses. Others are experimenting and having good results wintering single 10 frame deeps which are insulated and without upper vents. Of course it could be coincidence. Undoubtedly there are more case studies on multi level hives with upper entrance.
> "You can winter bees with little or no insulation, with any number of entrances. There may be some benefit to adding insulation, especially where it is very cold and dry in winter."
> 
> Certainly there are such places and I have mentioned the probability of diminishing returns in more southerly locations.
> ...


I'm not trying to be negative. More skeptical.

I am glad everybody is reporting good success wintering this year.

I tried insulated hives with no upper entrance, and my bees survived.

I am not sold it is better. I don't know if they used less food over winter or not, since I didn't weigh the hives before winter, and have no control group. While people generally seem to think they use less food, the evidence for that isn't clear to me yet. I also remember a paper published by the U of Wisconsin recommending (in a standard Lang hive) a total hive weight going into winter of 175 pounds (which is about 100 lbs of stores) based on their research which showed that hives which had more stores, and which used more stores over winter, produced more surplus the following year. These were uninsulated wood hives with top ventilation (standard inner cover). As you say, there are a lot of variables.

I am not looking for a mathematically precise answer, just an indication of what is better which is more likely than not to be correct. That is a surprisingly difficult thing to find. I suspect, based on my own observations of bee behavior, that larger colonies may benefit a good deal less from insulation and restricted ventilation than small colonies. I also think it depends a good deal on local weather conditions, hive geometry, and what sort of bees you happen to have. I got started down the insulation rabbit trail because I winter in 6 frame equipment, and I figured a good sized cluster would be pressing against the side of the box all winter, and not insulating the side would mean excessive heat loss. However, I have since learned that because my hives are side-by side duplexes, the cluster on each side hugs the middle wall, forming one big ball of bees. So they don't really touch the outside walls.

What I have learned is that insulation is quite a bit of work, and I am now looking at how to store all that insulation, as it is too expensive to replace every year. Not having a top entrance is something I am unsure about. We don't get much snow here, so it isn't as necessary as in other locations. It will be interesting to see how the spring buildup goes, but not easy, as the insulation makes examining the colonies more difficult. I can see why the local sideliners and small commercial guys who overwinter here do it in standard Lang hives with maybe a bit of insulation built into the top cover (maybe not). It is a lot easier, and survival rates are reasonably good. If you go north into Zone 3a, you pretty much need to insulate, as it is too cold for too long otherwise.

So next winter, if I am still keeping bees, I will think about it and try some other uncontrolled experiment.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

I have not experienced it yet but I expect that a small top entrance will help them drying honey, but may do them in in winter from heat loss.


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## plantman (May 30, 2020)

I'd like to chime in..Alot of generalizations going on here..
Bees can live without insulation.In zone 4 and 4a..With a top vent..even with a screened bottom board.Ive done it for years...If your hive is tipped a little the moisture will flow that direction..My hives tip to front and a little to the right as your looking at them...On the right day there will literally be icecycle hanging off front of hive. ..The condensation runs off the inner cover..


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## plantman (May 30, 2020)

I'm gonna add a couple of pics..The bees propolis the hole from top cover.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

plantman said:


> Bees can live without insulation.In zone 4 and 4a..With a top vent..even with a screened bottom board.Ive done it for years...


This has a very important pre-condition - a sufficiently strong colony which can power through most any conditions (IF fed well).

Meanwhile, one can just well winter many more weak colonies (a good thing for many good reasons).
These weak colonies could be a product of the circumstances OR actually created and maintained by design.
Wintering the weak colonies has been anathema for some time - undeservingly and incorrectly.
This is where the high R value and other parameters come in.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

plantman said:


> I'd like to chime in..Alot of generalizations going on here..
> Bees can live without insulation.In zone 4 and 4a..With a top vent..even with a screened bottom board.Ive done it for years...If your hive is tipped a little the moisture will flow that direction..My hives tip to front and a little to the right as your looking at them...On the right day there will literally be icecycle hanging off front of hive. ..The condensation runs off the inner cover..


if you want another generalization, 
with out insulation zone 4 and cooler can easily get locked on brood late feb early march and starve with good queen and lots of stores.

can live sure.
a corner case can kill them easier,, sure also.

I have never seen my insulated hive, no upper entrance, lock on brood and perish, apparently it is warm enough in the hive so they can go get food and come back.
However the opposite is not true, uninsulated, and upper entrance hive can get stuck in a bad place on a cold snap.

so depends on the place, race, and conditions.

IMO insulation, no upper entrance is more forgiving of weather issues.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I put a couple of pounds of sugar in a colony that wintered strictly as a single ten frame Dadant deep. About half the frames are deeps that the bees free wheeled additions on the bottom. Some bees seem to be working in the outside seams. As GG says in a well insulated hive the bees dont cluster tightly and have a lot more mobility. They may have enough stores to see them through. Not conclusive by any means but I feel they are getting going fairly early. First wintering with Buckfast queens so dont know whether they are supposedly early starters.
Having the access well in the center has been good to observe the bees activity and humidity etc. without chilling the bees. I am convinced enough not too worry about their well being with zero upper entrance or venting, so may use a simpler set up next season. Waiting to see how Gray Goose permanently high R value hives do in the summer time. That is a once and done solution that saves seasonal ritual of wrapping etc. 

I will be moving a couple more hives onto 13" deep Langstroth custom frames. Wont be lugging them around so they would be good candidates for permanent insulation. Am in the process of making a box joint jig that will handle up to a 14" board. Idea thanks to JConnolly.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Nice looking jig, Frank.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

crofter said:


> I put a couple of pounds of sugar in a colony that wintered strictly as a single ten frame Dadant deep. About half the frames are deeps that the bees free wheeled additions on the bottom. Some bees seem to be working in the outside seams. As GG says in a well insulated hive the bees dont cluster tightly and have a lot more mobility. They may have enough stores to see them through. Not conclusive by any means but I feel they are getting going fairly early. First wintering with Buckfast queens so dont know whether they are supposedly early starters.
> Having the access well in the center has been good to observe the bees activity and humidity etc. without chilling the bees. I am convinced enough not too worry about their well being with zero upper entrance or venting, so may use a simpler set up next season. Waiting to see how Gray Goose permanently high R value hives do in the summer time. That is a once and done solution that saves seasonal ritual of wrapping etc.
> 
> I will be moving a couple more hives onto 13" deep Langstroth custom frames. Wont be lugging them around so they would be good candidates for permanent insulation. Am in the process of making a box joint jig that will handle up to a 14" board. Idea thanks to JConnolly.


I like you box joint jig...


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

I'm late to the discussion, and I have not read the discussion, but I have been putting 2 hives together, replacing inner covers with a sheet of Reflectix, wrapping both together with R-13 roll insulation and add 2" aluminized foam under the lids in winter. Since doing this, I have had zero losses, they eat MUCH less over the winter, and they start brooding up much earlier. By early March, when the maples are starting up, their numbers are almost at summer levels.

Since removing top ventilation in winter, I have ZERO noticeable condensation, or at least zero that I can find visually. Very happy with the decision to follow this course of action.


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> I have never seen my insulated hive, no upper entrance, lock on brood and perish, apparently it is warm enough in the hive so they can go get food and come back.
> However the opposite is not true, uninsulated, and upper entrance hive can get stuck in a bad place on a cold snap.
> 
> so depends on the place, race, and conditions.
> ...


I've heard from a friend that this winter might come early and get very cold


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## SFHoneyBee (5 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> My set up for next winter is to increase to 4 deep hives and since my upper entrance and extra top insulation did work so far, two will be done same as this year, cause it worked. Two will be done like the Russian videos where the nest is condensed in the middle with insulation boards, space in the hive is left open on both sides but with heavy insulation on the top less on the sides and with bottom entrances.
> 
> I have not decided if all should have a plastic cover for condensation or if I should just do one of each. Decisions, decisions, I will cross that bridge when I know that the 'all clear' signal for live hives in the fall is evident.
> 
> ETA: I cannot go into the hives yet to check the frames of stores, but I am impatient to do so and see how much they consumed, where in the hive, and calculate how much sugar they used up, and how many bees are surviving. My stethoscope this morning tells me all are buzzing well, all are up on the sugar.


I like the Stethoscope idea!! {logs into Amazon and orders one..haha}


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## SFHoneyBee (5 mo ago)

COAL REAPER said:


> i venture to argue (well, respectfully hypothesize rather than argue) that the distinction lies in the top insulation AND lack of side insulation. it is at the sides that vaper is permitted to condense. thus allowing the bees access to liquid water. in building construction sciences, the main focus is not on keeping water out, but on facilitating its escape from the structure, whether vapor or driven liquid.
> again, the thickness of insulation is a critical detail in order to keep the dewpoint within the insulative media.


Ok… I’m tying to think this “dew point within the insulative media”— i’l gave small brood over Winter..{Yup.. that’s me in Zone 10B🥴😂}
so the hive wants to keep brood at 92-98 degrees.. THAT’S my dew point that I need up get my top inner cover up to with R-ratings?— so that 4 inches of R-21(?) isn’t that the way you calculate it?🥴
I tried “quilt boxes last year…”— the bees drew WAX / crazy comb all over them-go figure(?)


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

In this month's ABJ 'Classroom', Dr. Jamie Ellis addresses this topic with a quote from Derek Mitchell I had never read before outlining what the bees 'want' in terms of environmental parameters while overwintering if the envelope will support it.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Thanks to all contributors for keeping this discussion going; 

Keep in mind; I believe Jamie Ellis has never kept bees north of Missouri or southern Illinois. He says so all the time in his articles.

Also keep in mind: Humans deciding what bees 'want' is bordering on the ridicules, no? 

Bees 'know' what to do in most cases when humans are seeking solutions to problems.....unless our human interventions have restricted their natural instincts to survive.

"Bees don't waste time explaining to flies that honey tastes better than crap"


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

What the bees want? 
This has become a popular cliché.

I am frankly unconvinced that the bees prefer bottom entrance over the top - not anymore.

I have my own preferences for my own reason - well discussed. My preferences are not bees' preferences.

But the bees?
Watch - it is all in front of you.
What do you see?
(I have my answer but will not offer it just yet).
(397) Which entrance the bees prefer? - YouTube


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

As far as "top ventilation and top entrances" - people should look around for a change and realize Lang hives are not the ONLY hives and the only methodology around.

So anymore I tend to discount anyone who writes "smart" articles and yet never in their life saw a Ukrainian hive or a Polish hive or even universally ubiquitous Dadant (not to mention kept the bees in them).


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

drummerboy said:


> Bees 'know' what to do in most cases when humans are seeking solutions to problems.....unless our human interventions have restricted their natural instincts to survive.





GregB said:


> What the bees want?


I think the crux of Mr. Mitchell's central premise is that the bees know what sort of interior environment they'd like to maintain, bit the envelopes that we commonly provide them with are ill-suited to reaching the desired parameters.

His work is informed by the natural home of bees (i.e. tree cavities) versus various envelope profiles.

As native Kentucky boy Wendell Barry points out:



Litsinger said:


> _We cannot know what we are doing until we know what nature would be doing if we were doing nothing._


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Has anyone who did not use top entrances or ventilation in these high R value hives noticed a decrease in the bees going out in the snow to perish. Has the availability of increased moisture decreased this tendancy?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> I think the crux of Mr. Mitchell's central premise is that the bees know what sort of interior environment they'd like to maintain, bit the envelopes that we commonly provide them with are ill-suited to reaching the desired parameters.
> 
> His work is informed by the natural home of bees (i.e. tree cavities) versus various envelope profiles.
> 
> As native Kentucky boy Wendell Barry points out:


I am still puzzled by a very simple thing that gets ignored or is overlooked.
It is - water always runs down.

What does this mean?

It means that a natural tree cavity will naturally develop downwards.
As soon as an opening develops (a dead branch is typical case) - water will begin its work and create a cavity that develops down (but not up).

Predominant natural cavity should be A (upward open), but not B - just because how the natural rotting process works - downwards. If the bees to survive at all, they will have to do with what is available OR they will perish. 

I have hard time believing that the researches honestly found and identified entire populations of suitable cavities within the researched localities (INCLUDING! importantly ALL the empty cavities) and did proper numerical analysis.


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

ursa_minor said:


> Has anyone noticed?


This past winter I did notice there were not many dead bees lying in fresh snow. 

I had clear polyvinyl on all of them and I often went to peek inside to see what they were doing. I always saw bees active on the top bars and I did see bees drinking the moisture that condensed on the edges of the tops. Most were in double deeps so don't know what they were doing further down. I had r10 on the sides and r15-20 on the tops. 
This year (here in Kansas) I plan to overwinter all 25 in single deeps with several inches of raw wool on top and r 10 xps the sides.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> It means that a natural tree cavity will naturally develop downwards.


I'm not sure anyone would dispute this statement- and while I have only seen a couple dozen occupied tree cavities in my lifetime, I am not sure I've ever found one where the entrance is at the top of the cavity- sometimes the opening is in the upper third, but never at the very top. 

What I do think it safe to say is that natural cavities are generally better insulated and less vapor-porous than typical hive assemblies.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> Has anyone who did not use top entrances or ventilation in these high R value hives noticed a decrease in the bees going out in the snow to perish. Has the availability of increased moisture decreased this tendancy?


I saw couple dead bees in the snow around the hives during winter and I did not have to clean bottom boards from dead bees in the early spring. I hope to repeat it this coming winter, too.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> I am still puzzled by a very simple thing that gets ignored or is overlooked.
> It is - water always runs down.
> ...


I agree.
The same is with the heat in the summer. It goes down. In the hive the top of the cover is very hot and because the heat goes from higher to lower temperature it goes down to the inside of the hive and bees have to work harder to keep it comfortable for rearing the brood instead of bringing nectar. No wonder that Florida's insulation requirements call for R-39 in the attic 
This is overlooked, too.
Finland has Paradise poly hives and Turkey has Apimaye poly hives.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think the visualization here of what is a typical tree cavity is hugely generalized. As to their openings and locations, I have seen many cavities with no openings other than wood borer holes. I have a cedar tree that is being worked on at ground level by a pair of pileated woodpeckers as big as crows. Woodpeckers will make holes where they hear borers. Ants can do a lot of excavating. Rot from a broken off tree limb is not the only source of bee cavities. A lot of cavities start from frost cracks but there are darned few bee colonies up here in the land where it gets 40 below and colder . Lightening strikes are great initiators too. 

Too many vagueries here to make forecasts about what is a typical rot cavity and then retro attribute its direction of progression up or down or assume bees preference for top or bottom entrance. It could be that on average, survival is better where the cavity extends upward from the entrance. This could skew the results on discovered tree colonies even if bees had no intent.

There have been posts recently of hive cavities deliberately carved out of tree trunks. It would be no great chore to do some up selectively for upper or lower cavity entrances. That might point out survival benefits but it would take quite a number of duplications to prove or trash Derek Mitchell or Wm. Hesbach's hypotheses on the benefits of reducing heat loss and actively controlling where condensation can and cannot take place.

My probing with crude thermometers and watching the bees underneath the clear plastic film tells me that the bees keep a much larger area warm when there is top insulation and no top ventilation. I would say that there is definitely lower consumption of stores. I had no top feed on at all last winter. I feel there were fewer bees diving into the snow but that is what I was expecting so confirmation bias could have affected my observations.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> My probing with crude thermometers and watching the bees underneath the clear plastic film tells me that the bees keep a much larger area warm when there is top insulation and no top ventilation. I would say that there is definitely lower consumption of stores. I had no top feed on at all last winter. I feel there were fewer bees diving into the snow but that is what I was expecting so confirmation bias could have affected my observations.


Well I will try and replicate your findings this winter as best my muddling can manage. I am down to three hives due to a combine needed for a weak colony. Of the two for sure one will be done with the plastic film.

Last year I had upper entrances and no film but I marked the winter cleansing flights. Once it started to warm up and there were more days of above zero than below I stopped marking them down as I thought now they could get out fairly regularly even if a cold snap kept them confined for a week. All had lots of sugar syrup fed in the fall, all had access to dry sugar above on the frames. 

- standard Lang. hive, 5 seams of bees, DXDXM, 7X7X7 had 8 from the beginning of Nov. to the beginning of March
-#1 deep layens on 9 frames with 7 seams of bees had 5
-#2 deep layens on 9 frames with 9 seams of bees had 4

The lowest flight temp was -4C the highest was at +5C. The Layens only took flight when the temps were above zero except for their very last on on March 5 when it was -4. The Lang came out at all temps.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

ursa_minor said:


> Has anyone who did not use top entrances or ventilation in these high R value hives noticed a decrease in the bees going out in the snow to perish. Has the availability of increased moisture decreased this tendancy?


Yes indeed, this was the most obvious difference we witnessed after eliminating top entrances. While we used to rejoice the sight of scattered bees in the snow (example of a 'living' colony), we've now come to believe those dead bees were probably seeking 'water' (as much as relieving themselves), which top entrances and ventilation effectively removes. 

There have been a few discussions of this topic on BS and with Winter coming on fast, perhaps it would be good one to revisit.


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## Wil-7 (Sep 4, 2021)

I agree with drummerboy. I'd like to hear more about upper entrances vs. no upper entrance because I am so new to beekeeping that I want to do what's best.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

drummerboy said:


> Also keep in mind: Humans deciding what bees 'want' is bordering on the ridicules, no?


I would disagree, in the non literal sense, In My statements or discussions, I may use "bees like" but I do not have discussions with them.

Example, All the hives with less than 35 pounds of stores die over winter. I may say bees like 40 or more pounds of stores for winter "here" .
less obvious, hives with upper entrances seem to have a lot of bees in the snow, so bees like ........

I think if several overwinter configurations are tried, and a few do very poorly, one could say bees like or dislike a certain thing, with out the inherent discussion this implies with the bees.

observation and empirical data can have some saying bees like, maybe a better statement would be these bees do better if.
if you can understand the bees, then maybe not ridicules. 

GG


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

crofter said:


> I think the visualization here of what is a typical tree cavity is hugely generalized. As to their openings and locations, I have seen many cavities with no openings other than wood borer holes. I have a cedar tree that is being worked on at ground level by a pair of pileated woodpeckers as big as crows. Woodpeckers will make holes where they hear borers. Ants can do a lot of excavating. Rot from a broken off tree limb is not the only source of bee cavities. A lot of cavities start from frost cracks but there are darned few bee colonies up here in the land where it gets 40 below and colder . Lightening strikes are great initiators too.
> 
> Too many vagueries here to make forecasts about what is a typical rot cavity and then retro attribute its direction of progression up or down or assume bees preference for top or bottom entrance. It could be that on average, survival is better where the cavity extends upward from the entrance. This could skew the results on discovered tree colonies even if bees had no intent.
> 
> ...


My observation is that bees flying out at 25F is highly variable from hive to hive. Some hives seem to lose a hundred bees a week, others none at all. If I changed to some other hive config, I would not be able to tell if it made any difference.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

jtgoral said:


> It is all thermodynamics and enthalpy
> 
> Searching for _enthalpy_ Wikipedia gives this:
> _The *enthalpy of condensation* (or *heat of condensation*) is by definition equal to the enthalpy of vaporization with the opposite sign: enthalpy changes of vaporization are always positive (heat is absorbed by the substance), whereas enthalpy changes of condensation are always negative (heat is released by the substance). _
> ...


Basic heat transfer. Interesting subject.
Thermodynamics is concerned with (for example) the achievable efficiency of an engine given certain operating parameters, or which nuclear reactions will actually occur (for example He4 to Li4 by beta decay) very mathematical stuff. Isothermal, isenthalpic and isentropic processes. Miserable stuff. I got a "C" in that class. (But an "A" in heat transfer.)


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

GregB said:


> So...
> I have 10-15 hives dying every winter due - *not-treated.*
> For 5 years.
> Random occurrence?
> ...


You are agreeing with me.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

A Novice said:


> If I changed to some other hive config, I would not be able to tell if it made any difference.


I guess the only way to tell if it made any difference would be in the long term.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Good reading by Etienne Tardif: Hive Thermodynamics Oct 2022 .pdf


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

jtgoral said:


> Good reading by Etienne Tardif: Hive Thermodynamics Oct 2022 .pdf


Yes, overlaps with several recent threads here. Look forward to discussion that will help me understand it better.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

jtgoral said:


> Good reading by Etienne Tardif: Hive Thermodynamics Oct 2022 .pdf


Very informative.

Keeping bees in such extreme conditions is impressive.

One thing I noted is the dew point is the lower temperature bound for the hive (practically speaking) because condensation releases so much heat. Maintaining a condensing atmosphere at the heat transfer surface of the hive stabilizes hive temperature.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

A Novice said:


> Very informative.
> 
> Keeping bees in such extreme conditions is impressive.
> 
> One thing I noted is the dew point is the lower temperature bound for the hive (practically speaking) because condensation releases so much heat. Maintaining a condensing atmosphere at the heat transfer surface of the hive stabilizes hive temperature.


I dont think there is any denying the heat released by condensation: the trick is to have it occur within the hive *but* on surfaces where it does not impact the bees. It would be easy to latch onto the notion that the point of release may be below the bees target temperature, yet still be of benefit if that point is higher than the outside air temperature. Still a net gain.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Quick update on only bottom entrance, none, not one of my hives had a cleansing flight in the warm up we just had, I have no dead bees in the snow. If my records are correct we are experiencing approximately the same Nov. temps as last year (although on different dates). Last year in Nov. the Lang had 4 days with dead bees in the snow, and my two Layens had two each. 

Can I attribute it to the lack of an upper entrance and the plastic film on top? That is doubtful but as long as they come to no harm, and possibly consume less stores, it will be a good enough positive result for me. Of course, there is much winter left in which they can die.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> That is doubtful but as long as they come to no harm, and possibly consume less stores, it will be a good enough positive result for me.


But it is a data point- good report.


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