# Extractors



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I've been looking for a good used power extractor for quite awhile now and nothing is showing up so I might have to go new . I was going to go with either the dadant ranger or the maxant 3100p both in the 6 frame range for about 775.00 . 

I was browsing around for a little bigger unit because most say for the little difference in money you can go bigger for not much more . Thats when I came across the brushy mt. 831G only about 120.00 more and does 9 frames ( radially like the others) . Had my mind set on dadant or maxant for quality not sure about the brushy mt. although they seem to brag up the German motor . Has anyone used one ,here is a link to Brushy . 

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/9-Frame-Power-Radial-Extractor-w_German-motor/productinfo/831G/

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/downloads/801G_831GGermanMotorExtractors.pdf


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I wouldn't buy anything less than an 18 frame... and since anything bigger than 20 won't fit through my kitchen door, probably nothing bigger than 20. If you don't need an 18 frame extractor, you really don't need an extractor, you just want one... and the 18 will be less frustrating.


----------



## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

I would rather go with a programable controller.


----------



## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

sjj said:


> I would rather go with a programable controller.


Means more money, it breaks, it means more money.


----------



## USMCEOD (Jan 5, 2014)

I don't know how much extractor you need, but I've got a Maxant 3100H... It is a great extractor and it will wear you out after awhile. I ended up taking off the hand crank / pully stuff and put on a 1/2" corded drill with a router speed control to vary the speed works great. I know its a cheap go around, but I have to save money where I can.


----------



## beeman2009 (Aug 23, 2012)

I have owned the Brushy Mt 9 frame "manual" extractor for 6 years. Works great but will kill you extracting large numbers. I wish I had bought the motorized version but I didn't. That being said they used to have a conversion kit but it cost almost as much as a new extractor. I did USMC's trick, works great. Cheap but my bees have not complained. If you buy it, go motorized.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Motorized for sure , wonder what gauge the brushy is in the 9 frame .


----------



## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

24 g on the bm extractor.
Higher the number, the thinner the stainless


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Maxant am I understanding your line-up , you jump from a 6 frame medium extractor all the way to a 20 frame medium with nothing in between ? Or is there a a 9 frame or 12 frame in there .


----------



## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

You are correct.
We make nothing in between.
We did all through the 70's,80's, and 90's
Your options now with Maxant are 
2 frame
3/6/9 frame
20 frame


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> I wouldn't buy anything less than an 18 frame... and since anything bigger than 20 won't fit through my kitchen door, probably nothing bigger than 20. If you don't need an 18 frame extractor, you really don't need an extractor, you just want one... and the 18 will be less frustrating.


Sorry, but I don't agree with this assessment at all. The fact that many companies for the past several decades (likely longer) sell smaller extractors seems to suggest that there's a viable long-term market for sub-18 frame models. Could all these customers have erred? Sure, the smaller models may prove to be a stepping stone to larger ones, but to suggest that they are not needed seems very odd to me. I run the Dadant 12-frame motorized and you better believe that I NEED it. Would I like an 18? Sure, but I really can't justify the added costs at this point. The question to me is: would an 18 dramatically improve my throughput? I suspect not, given that all my uncapping is currently done by hand. I do all the extraction for my 50+ hives myself over many nights. The 12 frame is not a bad choice since uncapping is the bottleneck in the process. Besides, care and feeding of the 12 frame breaks up the drudgery of constant uncapping. 

Would someone with 10 hives need a 18 frame extractor? If not, how would you suggest they deal with the 300 frames? Surely not crush and strain......


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> The fact that many companies for the past several decades (likely longer) sell smaller extractors seems to suggest that there's a viable long-term market for sub-18 frame models.

There still seems to be a market for a two frame, hand crank, nonreversible, tangential. Why? It's a mystery to me, but I'm guessing that no one who is buying one has ever used one before... Just because people buy them does not mean they are a good idea.

>Would someone with 10 hives need a 18 frame extractor?

Crush and strain is fine. I can crush and strain 300 combs MUCH faster than I can extract them in a six frame extractor and worlds faster than a two frame tangential. And with the exact same amount of mess. Comb honey is fine. An 18 frame extractor is fine if you can afford it. Now you're finally up to a size that can compete with crush and strain for speed. But what is the point of something in between? A 9 frame extractor is not half the cost of an 18 frame extractor. It doesn't take up half the space in your garage. It does, however take a third again as long to extract your honey.

There is some rationale in the argument that two 9 frame extractors would allow you to continue to uncap while one extractor is running, but I've always needed to sit down and rest my feet now and then anyway, so I don't think it would speed things for me.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Well the brushy mountain seems like a better deal , it will do 9 frames instead of 6 , legs aren't extra . Wish I new about the quality , German motors are some of the best , anyone know what gauge stainless there using . Kind of wanted a maxant or dadant now this Brushy comes along .


----------



## John R C (Mar 15, 2011)

I'm kinda looking at extractors myself and brushy mountain sells an 18 frame motorized radial for just $100 more than the nine frame. So by the way I see it for just $100.00 more I can get twice the extractor and jhalf the time to extract. Has anyone got any experience with either the nine or the 18 frame extractor from Brushy?


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

John ,your right twice the frames for only 100.00 more and it states with reverse on the 18 but I don't see it on the 9 frame , wish I could find more reviews from beeks that have used them .


----------



## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

Mann Lake 18 frame power extractor for me. I would buy it again and again if I needed to. They had them for under $1,000 during their Spring sale. That was a great deal!!


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

laketrout, I'm pretty sure the 9-frame from BM is a SAF brand. If it is SAF, it is the same extractor that my mentor has. He bought it from his best friend who bought a 12-frame Dadant. I've extracted my honey with it the last couple of years (small amount, 4-5 supers each year). My mentor works up to around 50 hives (he's in his 80's so is cutting back some). From what I understand it hasn't missed a beat with either owner...probably 8-9 years old. It seems to be well built and plenty sturdy enough to do it's intended job...slinging honey. I know that when I used it it performed flawlessly. Naturally, everybody will have a blowout or something all along...so far I've been fortunate with no problems. I like the heavier gauge of the Maxant but it's basically a 6-frame radial and I do like the added capacity of the SAF 9-frame. The Maxant's thicker metal would probably take getting bumped better than the metal of the SAF...but, with an investment like that I'd be taking some precautions and storing it safely.

And then there's the 18-frame for an extra $100. The 9 or 18 frame, that's what I'm debating on. :scratch: I'm hoping to make my purchase in the first part of 2015 ...provided the 2014 honey crop brings in as much as last year's.  And finally make the bees pay for something!!! :thumbsup:

Ed


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I believe your right , they are made by SAF in Italy and it looks like the models for Brushy are made for them exclusively as they don't show up on the SAF website that I can find . Right now you pay about 340.00 more for a dadant 12 frame over the brushy 18 frame .The dadant is USA and probably heavier steel .Maxant's options are very limited either a 6 frame med. or a 20 frame med. but you can get there 20 frame for only 158.00 more than a dadant 12 frame !! And the hunt goes on !!!

I don't think I want or need a big production extractor , my goal is 6 colonies , how many supers could I possibly need to extract in a good season .


----------



## CLICKBANGBANG (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm looking at the Maxant 20. I'll crush and strain till then. The way things are looking, I won't need it this year. No rain. No honey. But I don't like paying taxes, so I may dump some money into the F form write off on equipment (wood or stainless). If extracting equipment, it will sit until another year when there is honey to pull. But I have no reason to get anything smaller or bigger. After the extractor, a bottling tank, ect.


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

laketrout, check this thread out.... http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...xtractor-research-)/page2&highlight=extractor

For the last two years I've only managed to harvest honey from one colony each year...4-5 supers worth....75-110 pounds. I run all 8-frame mediums.

Ed


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Thanks for the link Ed , what did you end up with .


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm kinda looking at extractors myself and brushy mountain sells an 18 frame motorized radial for just $100 more than the nine frame. So by the way I see it for just $100.00 more I can get twice the extractor 

My point exactly.


----------



## nschomer (Mar 14, 2014)

So what about the hobbyist who doesn't particularly care about making a profit (or even their money back) on hives, nor do they ever intend to have enough hives to justify an 18-frame extractor, but does want to maximize the amount of honey they can pull out of a couple hives and minimize the amount of work the bees have to do to rebuild their honey stores (I.E. - doesn't want to destroy nice drawn comb with crush and drain)? I think that's your market for the small extractors.


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Buy used. Small extractors (less than 30 frames) virtually never wear out. For most people, they are used maybe 5 days a year. Don't get caught up in the "what gauge stainless is this" argument. You won't ever wear a hole in the stainless. It's not going to protect you in a car crash, it simply holds the honey and a top and bottom bearing. The motors and bearings are the only wear items.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Don't get caught up in the "what gauge stainless is this" argument. You won't ever wear a hole in the stainless. It's not going to protect you in a car crash, it simply holds the honey and a top and bottom bearing.

Well said.

>So what about the hobbyist who doesn't particularly care about making a profit (or even their money back) on hives, nor do they ever intend to have enough hives to justify an 18-frame extractor...

It is, of course, just my opinion, but if you want to extract and don't care if it's profitable, why wouldn't you spend another $100 and extract two supers at a time? I think if you can justify a 9 frame extractor you can justify another $100 for an 18 frame extractor.


----------



## Belewsboy (Jun 6, 2012)

This is my 3rd year beekeeping. Decided right from the start to save a little money each paycheck for an extractor. First year, no harvest. Last year only had a couple of supers to extract (lousy spring and swarms), so I borrowed my neighbor's Little Wonder hand crank, 4 frame Tang. What a workout just for that small amount...but it did the job. It was however hard to balance the load and keep the unit from walking off into the next room! 
This year promises to be a good harvest and I have more hives. I've decided on the BM programmable 21 frame. I'm not concerned about the metal thickness and I like the idea of the controller starting the cycle slow and ramping up speed through the cycle. I'm pretty sure I will have more hives in the future and I will have an extractor that will handle the load.


----------



## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Your time is worth something. I have used 2, 3 and 6 frame extractors. The 2 and 3 framers are an old Kelley and a Root. With the Root you have to take the frames out and flip them. But, with 50% greater capacity it goes much quicker than the 2 frame extractor.

When I buy one it will 18-20 frame capacity. I use mediums and deeps for supers so I'm leaning towards the Dadant. Will I have the hive number to justify it? Probably not. But, the time savings will make up for it.

Tom


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Alot of good points , with six hives what size extractor would be the most practical , would 4 honey supers for each be a good max figure ,so at 24 supers max which would probably never happen more likely 15 , what size extractor would do a comfortable job with only one guy decapping .Out of the bunch the brushy mt. 18 frame is the easy pick price wise at 995.00 but there not dadant or maxant quality .But they are using 22 gauge stainless which is thicker than the dadant ranger ! which surprised me .


----------



## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

If I had only six hives I would go with the six frame from maxant or the nine frame from Brushy. I use a nine frame that i made and i like the fact that I can extract one super at a time. Also with the nine frame I can separate honey from different areas. I harvest 500lbs a year average with the nine frame.


----------



## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Get a Maxant 1400 it rocks and will do what you want just fine.


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

laketrout said:


> Thanks for the link Ed , what did you end up with .


I'm still looking. Looks like I'll be using my mentor's 9-frame SAF again this year. I sold enough honey last year to cover half of the cost of an extractor...I'm hoping they'll do at least as well this year (maybe better?  ). If they earn their keep this year I'll probably be ordering an extractor to be delivered at the Alabama Beekeepers Association meeting in the fall. The initial investment of getting started was "on me"...I figure from here on out I'm going to (hopefully) let the bees pay their own way. 

I'm undecided as of now...at times I say the 9-frame SAF, then it's the 18-frame one...then I start to wondering about that Dadant 6/12 frame one. I've got all summer to mull over it...at least that will be something to do this summer. :s

Ed


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

You have used the 9 frame saf before is there anything at all that would make you not buy one of your own , anything that wasn't good quality .


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I can't really say that I recall anything that would say "Don't buy it!". I will say this, though...

The SAF uses a "different" way of installing the frames to be extracted than what the 6/9 frame Maxant does. Down below are two links that I'm including for the purpose of showing the different frame installation methods employed. 

In the first Maxant video notice the metal fingers of the Maxant that hold one side of the frames and the steel radial arm that supports the basket and also one side of each frame installed. The fingers are tight and squeeze off some comb/honey as the frame is placed in the holder. Maxant became aware of the issue and redesigned (shortened) the "ears" of the frame holder as seen in the second Maxant video. My two major concerns with the Maxant in their "nine" frame version are how close each pair frames appear to be to one another...could this impair extraction? There are many owners who state that that close proximity of frames causes no problems...it is probably just my perception and me imagining worse case situations. The other concern is that the nine frame Maxant is actually a 6-frame radial  ...the other 3 frames would have to be extracted tangentially by flipping them over.

Here is a Youtube video of the Maxant 3100P which appears to be before the mods were made to the "ears". About 2:00 minutes you can see the frame mounting arrangement. Notice the close proximity of the tops of the frames to one another in the pairs: http://youtu.be/KbXlDJnTGQ0 

Basket mod for the 3100P: http://youtu.be/7XuaMcRIQ7s

Here is a Youtube video of what appears to be a SAF 18-frame unit. This video is in a foreign language but if you'll fastforward to about 1:45 minutes into the video you will get a good shot of the slotted rings that the frames are mounted in. The notched rings are nylon(?) and are durable and are deep enough to hold the wood of the frames. I will say that sometimes you have to work with a frame to make sure it is positioned in the notches properly: http://youtu.be/GOkMVJwF1Tg

I believe that the SAF extractor would last me a lifetime. I'm not figuring on using the drum for a burn barrel or to store kerosene in so it should be ok. The motor is stated as being a good one by several people. The one my mentor has is pushing 10 years old by now. It hasn't seen commercial use but it's hasn't sat idle through those years. The metal seems durable. As for as I know neither my mentor or the friend he purchased it from has had any problems with it. The only thing I see that is non-standard to the 9-frame SAF is that my mentor has a small bungee cord attached to the lid so he can leave it open and watch the spinning of the frames to judge when to turn the speed up. Speaking of that, someone mentioned a "programmable" control...that would be good for a large production setup, but for 50 hives or so it's easy enough to turn the knob two or three times during each extraction to increase the speed.

The Maxant would last me a lifetime, too...no doubt,...maybe two lifetimes (but maybe the SAF would, too?). Heavier metal, but do I need heavier metal? Excellent quality of hardware and electronics. Some reduced capacity. (My) concerns about the proximity of the frames to one another (probably not an issue, though). Without checking, I think that by the time you get the stand for the Maxant it will cost about the same as the SAF 9-framer. It seems that everyone that owns a Maxant speaks glowingly of it's "fit and finish".

Customer service... Reading people's posts and reviews it looks like Maxant takes top, top honors for this. Response time and customer satisfaction appears to be very high with Maxant products. I think you will get more personable customer service from Maxant whereas you will most likely be dealing with a vendor (not manufacturer) if you have a problem with a SAF. But, considering my mentor's extractor's age and the lack of problems with it, I wouldn't be afraid of a SAF. To be honest, between the two brands I haven't heard of a whole lot of problems with them. With Maxant, it's a heavier duty extractor (I think) and you also get a bonus of better(?) customer service...but there's that gap between 6 frame and 21(?) frame...sure would be nice if there was a Maxant in the 9 to 12 frame range to further complicate decision making.  With the SAF, the capacities are more "mainstream" and the cost is less.  

And therein lies some reasons I haven't bought one yet...lots of thinks to decided on. You think you've settled on the features, cost, quality of one and then you go "But,...". 

If I can make it over to my mentors in the next week or so I'll take some pictures of his SAF...they should be better quality than what is found on the net but they also will be of a machine that is almost a decade old, so things might be a little different in the models now.

Ah well, autumn is coming and the beekeeper meeting...I hope those ladies make some honey so I can afford the other half of an extractor!! 

Best wishes,
Ed


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> My point exactly.


Perhaps that's your point now, but its not what you said. You said: "If you don't *need *an 18 frame extractor, you really don't *need *an extractor, you just want one... and the 18 will be less frustrating." Which prompted my objection. 

Pretty much eveyone with less than 10 colonies doesn't *need* an 18-frame extractor, but would it be nice, sure. Particularly if its only $100 more, assuming you've got the room to store it, and the muscle to move a bigger piece, then sure - makes perfect sense. Would an 18 dramatically reduce the extraction time for the 10 colony beekeeper? Probably not much, unless they have several people uncapping. The amount of time it takes for 1 person to uncap 18 frames is going to far exceed the required spin time of the extractor, which will then sit idle for a longer duration. 

BTW, The Brushy extractors are perfectly fine and hold up well. My previous extractor was the 9-frame version and served me very well. I bought it used and got a good deal. That machine has spun a lot of honey and now is being used by another beekeeper - many years of service and still works perfectly.


----------



## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

We went thru this process of choosing last fall. I was initially looking very carefully at the BM 9 frame radial. I liked it because it actually does 9 radial frames at a time, whereas the other 6/9 types only do 6, and you get the last 3 tangential if you want. Then my wife asked a dumb question. Thinking not of this year, but in 2 or 3 years, when you go out to the bee yard to pull honey supers, how many do you expect to be bringing in at once. My answer to that question was 30 or 40. Part two of the question, how long to extract a single super ? How long do you want to be in the garage extracting honey ?

I immediately stopped looking at 9 frame units, and started looking at 18 and 20 frame units. Initially I was getting concerned about things like metal size, etc etc, but then I got a serious reality check. I can pick up the Mann Lake stuff from a local supplier, at what amounts to the Mann Lake catalog price. For any other brand, I have to shop online at a place in another province, who has a list price 50% higher than what I see at the dadant and/or maxant websites, then an extremely high shipping bill to get an extractor from Alberta to BC.

We bought the Mann Lake 9/18, and I'm glad we did. When using mediums, I can put 2 supers at a time into that unit, and I can do a full super of deeps. It cost about half what a similar option from another brand would have cost me, simply because of the pricing from a local dealer, and no big shipping charges.

Prior to our move, we were the hosts for a club extractor, a Maxant 2 frame setup which had been motorized. Yes, it was somewhat heavier gauge metal, probably a good thing for the club unit that got dragged around a lot from place to place. But the one we got is 'heavy enough' for our use, it'll sit in the corner of the garage for the rest of it's life (or mine, whichever comes first). I haven't extracted honey with it yet, but we have loaded up a set of empty frames to take it for a spin. Our original plan was to bolt it down on a piece of plywood, but turns out we didn't have to do that. It was shipped already bolted to a piece of ply in the shipping carton, so we just pulled the cardboard off and set it in the garage. My only minor complaint is that the honey gate is not quite high enough to put a 5 gallon bucket under it, so we will use a 3 gallon bucket under the extractor spout, then pour into larger containers as we extract.

For us, capacity was the driving issue that made me look away from the 9 frame stuff, and into larger extractors. Once we had decided firmly to go larger, then cost was the deciding factor choosing the Mann Lake 9/18. I did like the looks of the others, but, it was really hard to justify them at twice the price (by the time it landed on our doorstep) when compared to this unit.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Pretty much everyone with less than 10 colonies doesn't need an 18-frame extractor

Pretty much everyone with less than 10 colonies doesn't need an extractor.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Thanks for all the detailed reports guys , its a tough decision , thought I would have run across a good used one by now !!!


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Was at Mann Lake yesterday picking up a few items and checked out there extractors was surprised to see they had them marked 26 ga. stainless , thought mann lake could do better than that, even Brushy is 22 ga !!


----------



## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

John R C said:


> I'm kinda looking at extractors myself and brushy mountain sells an 18 frame motorized radial for just $100 more than the nine frame. So by the way I see it for just $100.00 more I can get twice the extractor and jhalf the time to extract. Has anyone got any experience with either the nine or the 18 frame extractor from Brushy?


I checked it out and the difference is in the shipping. The 9-frame Brushy ships (to my address) for about $75. The 18-frame Brushy requires truck shipment and costs over $350.00 to my address. With the addition of the shipping charges, the Brushy 18-frame falls right in the price range of most of the others in the same class.


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I've heard several times that small beekeepers don't need extractors. How does a crush and strain beekeeper builds up an inventory of drawn comb? I don't know whether or not honey bees spend a significant amount of resources building comb, I've read conflicting thoughts on this. It seems that it has to free up *some* time and energy for them. Having drawn comb on hand also is handy for hiving swarms, installing packages. It just seems "right" to have drawn comb on hand. I hope to increase the size of my tiny bee yard, but destroying the honey comb each year seems like it would be counterproductive to "increase".
:scratch:

I've been looking at the Italian extractors at Brushy Mountain and at Rossmans. I was thinking that they were the same extractors on both vendors' website but they appear to have different motor setups. Those on the Rossman website are depicted as having a vertical motor whereas the online catalog at Brushy Mountain shows a horizontal motor, though an associated video shows a vertical motor. I've emailed BM asking to clarify motor orientation on the 9 and 18 framers and also to verify the brand. As a side note, my mentor's extractor is a 9-frame SAF with the vertical motor and has served (and is still serving) him well for several years...and his best friend before him. He's been extracting more or less a ton of honey with it each year. 

Ed


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I agree the motors are setup different and I don't see a 18 frame at rossman at all , interesting the 9 frame rossman and brushy are the same price , looks like they both might come out of the SAF plant . Let me know what brushy says .


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Here is a direct quote from Brushy Mountain's reply: "_Saf Natura recently changed from what they called their Baldor Motor to what they now call their German Motor._"

Hmm, a "German Motor"??? I've emailed them about the quality of the motor and if it has some type of track record. And also about it's warranty.

Another thing that I"m curious about is this statement: "_One main advantage to their new style is the breaking system for when you open the lid._" I looked at one extractor (I actually think it was a SAF hand-turned) that had a brake on the horizontal shaft...you squeezed two "pads" against the shaft in a pinching motion to slow the spinning down. I'm not sure if this is what they're talking about or if it actually has some type of automatic braking system that activates when the lid is opened. If the latter is the case I'll probably be scratching the SAF off of my list. I asked them about this in the my reply to them.

I emailed Rossmans this afternoon about their's but I think it going to be a case of them just having old pictures online.

I'll post back what they tell me.

Ed


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I've heard several times that small beekeepers don't need extractors. How does a crush and strain beekeeper builds up an inventory of drawn comb? 

An "inventory" of drawn comb is comb that has to be protected from wax moths. That is another set of problems.

"A comb honey beekeeper really needs, in addition to his bees and the usual apiary equipment and tools, only one other thing, and that is a pocket knife. The day you go into producing extracted honey, on the other hand, you must begin to think not only of an extractor, which is a costly machine used only a relatively minute part of the year, but also of uncapping equipment, strainers, settling tanks, wax melters, bottle filling equipment, pails and utensils galore and endless things. Besides this you must have a place to store supers of combs, subject to damage by moths and rodents and, given the nature of beeswax, very subject to destruction by fire. And still more: You must begin to think in terms of a whole new building, namely, a honey house, suitably constructed, supplied with power, and equipped.... 

"All this seems obvious enough, and yet time after time I have seen novice beekeepers, as soon as they had built their apiaries up to a half dozen or so hives, begin to look around for an extractor. It is as if one were to establish a small garden by the kitchen door, and then at once begin looking for a tractor to till it with. Unless then, you have, or plan eventually to have, perhaps fifty or more colonies of bees, you should try to resist looking in bee catalogs at the extractors and other enchanting and tempting tools that are offered and instead look with renewed fondness at your little pocket knife, so symbolic of the simplicity that is the mark of every truly good life." --Richard Taylor, The Comb Honey Book

>I don't know whether or not honey bees spend a significant amount of resources building comb, I've read conflicting thoughts on this.

They do spend resources on drawing comb, but the real cost in honey is time. The flow is limited in time and having somewhere to store it will make a lot more honey than they having to build the comb first.

>It seems that it has to free up *some* time and energy for them.

You never "free up" time, the bees will spend the time on something, it's just a question of what.

>Having drawn comb on hand also is handy for hiving swarms, installing packages. 

It is handy to have some. You can get some easily enough every spring when half or more of the combs in the hive are already empty, but then you have to figure out how to protect it from the wax moths...

>It just seems "right" to have drawn comb on hand.

Sure, But how much do you need? A few frames for a swarm trap? You can steal frames of honey and pollen and brood for a package easily enough from an established hive and in the meantime the bees are guarding it from wax moths and small hive beetles and mice.

There is nothing wrong with having an extractor if you count all the costs and they are worth it to you.


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks for the reply, Michael. 

I would think that it is understood that an inventory of comb has to be protected but that is not really the discussion here, is it? I suppose a good point to make in case someone isn't aware of that.

I enjoy reading Taylor's writings, too. I have four of his books and have just begun re-reading through "How To Do It"...good for a few minutes read over a section at a time.  I glean a lot of information from his writings...some I use and some I disregard. He has a refreshing writing style. I can only imagine that he is/was correct about his pocketknife...for comb honey production. Currently, I'm more interested in producing strained honey which I think the thread is mostly focused on.



Michael Bush said:


> >I don't know whether or not honey bees spend a significant amount of resources building comb, I've read conflicting thoughts on this.
> 
> They do spend resources on drawing comb, but the real cost in honey is time. The flow is limited in time and having somewhere to store it will make a lot more honey than they having to build the comb first.
> 
> ...


I guess I should have been more careful in my wording. The time factor being the real cost is a good way of looking at it. Only a limited amount of work can be done in a limited amount of time...there's only 24 hours in a day, even a bee's day. So, if the time spent building comb is used instead for filling already drawn comb then the bee's honey production will be greater in the limited time period of the honey flow...right? That seems like a good thing to me. 



Michael Bush said:


> There is nothing wrong with having an extractor if you count all the costs and they are worth it to you.


I know that there is nothing wrong with having an extractor even though I have less than ten hives. But, to maximize my honey production each year and maybe even show an increase in production in succeeding years do I *need* an extractor? I think so.

Michael, coming from a person looked up to by many new (and old) beekeepers as a source of good information, your previous statement, _"Pretty much everyone with less than 10 colonies doesn't need an extractor."_, tends to come across to me, a small beekeeper, as somewhat of a disparaging remark. :s I don't believe you intended it that way but that is how it came across to me...the internet can sometimes cloud communications. 

As for my original question... It appears (to me) that a crush and strain beekeeper can't possibly built up an inventory of honey comb when they destroy the comb at each harvest (brilliant deduction, eh?  ). With a "time is honey" thought, it really seems to me that having drawn comb to give the bees would increase the volume of honey that they can produce...even in a small beekeepers yard. And how do you build up drawn comb.....?


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I can't imagine the time you would have tied up if you were trying to crush and strain anything over 4 hives , it just seems very time consuming for the beekeeper and the time waiting for it to thoroughly strain out and then the wasted honey you can't get out of the crushed comb unless your going to take even more time to feed it back to the bee's and then haul it in out for a week so the bears don't get it . Just seems more efficient to extract your honey and save your drawn comb and get the job done . Guess I'll find out real soon !!! Still looking for a good used power extractor !!!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So, if the time spent building comb is used instead for filling already drawn comb then the bee's honey production will be greater in the limited time period of the honey flow...right?

Exactly.

>That seems like a good thing to me. 

Of course. Is it good enough for the added cost of equipment? That is the question. Once you have enough hives, it's easy to answer. If someone offers you an extractor really cheap, it's worth having one if you have somewhere to store it.

>I can't imagine the time you would have tied up if you were trying to crush and strain anything over 4 hives

I can crush and strain with less time than extracting. I can cut out and crush a comb as fast as I can uncap it and then I don't have to extract...

> it just seems very time consuming for the beekeeper and the time waiting for it to thoroughly strain out

I don't wait. I go do other things. It does not require my time to let it strain out and the majority goes very quickly.

> and then the wasted honey you can't get out of the crushed comb unless your going to take even more time to feed it back to the bee's and then haul it in out for a week so the bears don't get it .

You would lose the same amount that would be on your wet combs... not sure I follow. I actually don't waste any of it. After no more will drain, I put it in a pan in the oven at 150 F or so and melt it, cool it, and use that honey for cooking.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Michael I'll have to try your idea on melting the honey laden comb in the oven and see how goes with my cappings , does it separate completely giving you pure honey .


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Intheswamp,

If you're serious about beekeeping, that is, you are going to keep 6 or more hives for the foreseeable future, then buy the extractor. You will not regret it.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you melt the wax it will rise to the top. Then you let it cool and pick the wax off of the top. The honey is below.


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> Intheswamp,
> 
> If you're serious about beekeeping, that is, you are going to keep 6 or more hives for the foreseeable future, then buy the extractor. You will not regret it.


Thanks for that, AstroBee. I've been wondering if I was actually foolish for considering an extractor at this point. I do hope to have more than six hives, I've currently got eight hives and hope to definitely have more than a dozen. I've also got some property over by the river that I'm thinking of establishing an outyard at in a few years...it will be interesting to see what the bees bring out of the swamp.  

I had pretty much decided on going with one of the SAF extractors but I'm wondering now. SAF has replaced the Baldor motors with a "German motor". I may be wrong, but I believe the Baldor was, a direct-drive motor. The "German motor" uses a right angle type of gearbox...which to me means and added part that can break down. :s It would be good to hear others opinions of this. SAF has also added a "safety switch" so that when the lid is lifted on the extractor the AC power is cut off to the extractor...thanks Big Brother for looking out for me. :no: Anyhow, I've been browsing extractors more and looking at the Dadants and Maxants again, though I'll be extracting at my mentors this year...probably will score the extractor this fall (beat shipping by having it delivered to a bee meeting  ).

Ed


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Something else that is causing me some hesitation with SAF is their webpage showing the new motors....interested parties might want to check it out. It's probably a "language thing", but that wording could definitely be better! :scratch:

http://www.safnatura.com/eng/prodot...eap-motor&qi=470185779fbecc66297cd581e9083b03

Ed


----------



## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

Looks like a Chinese knock off of the Parvalux motor.......Buy American!


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

MAXANT said:


> Looks like a Chinese knock off of the Parvalux motor.......Buy American!


<chuckle> Now how does that statement not surprise me coming from you?  Ya'll got some hot deals on the 1400 going on????? 

Ed


----------



## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

Intheswamp said:


> <chuckle> Now how does that statement not surprise me coming from you?  Ya'll got some hot deals on the 1400 going on?????
> 
> Ed


:shhhh:


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

AstroBee said:


> If you're serious about beekeeping, that is, you are going to keep 6 or more hives for the foreseeable future, then buy the extractor. You will not regret it.


I haven't been at this as long as some of the experts here, but I agree 100%. 

I battled drawn comb shortages for years and it was very frustrating on a lot of different levels. To me drawn comb is one of the beekeepers most valuable resources if you are geared toward honey production or colony increase. Even running less than 12 hives I cringe just thinking about crushing all my good comb. Everyone looks at this with a different set of priorities, but that's my take on it.

It's fairly easy to preserve your comb with BT Aizawai, and application is not very time consuming. I've never had one frame that was sprayed ever become damaged by wax moths. 

My humble advice would be to buy the best extractor you can afford, even if it's a two frame hand crank. Hang on to that drawn comb, you'll need it.


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks, Mike. I hope to grow my yard but I've still got a lot of learning to do. After the harvest I'm going to tinker with starting two or three nucs with homebewed queens. I have a cutout from two years ago that is gentle and makes tons of honey...that will definitely be a donor colony for larvae.  So, yes, I will be growing my beekeeping interests. I doubt I'll ever get very big but hope to one day have 20 or so colonies.

I tried some BT when I first got started...simply sprayed it on the frames of foundation (didn't have any empty comb when I started). Later that summer I hit hard on a few boxes of comb. I'm taking it that the BT has to be sprayed on the drawn comb, that it won't do much good spraying on foundation and then having comb drawn over it?

I'm now trying to figure out whch extractor. I'm a little put off with the changes in the SAF machines, but they're saying a "German motor" in the descriptions. The actual SAF website has "CHEAP" in big letters as the made description for these motors...I know it's some type of language snafu, but it sure isn't helping my feelings towards them any.  Also, I was looking at the instructions for the German motor upgrade and they state the following:

_"Before switching on the motor or opening the lid, the
control lever must be on “0”. After correctly converting to
the German motor, position the switch “up” on the black
control box (attached to the motor) to power extractor.
Begin extracting by slowly turning lever toward the left
or right. "_

I wonder what happens if you don't have the lever in the "0" position. :scratch: With my mentor's old Baldor equipped SAF all we did was basically turn the dial...?????

Ah well, I'll figure it out sooner or later...or keep using my mentor's for a while. 

Ed


----------



## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

Intheswamp said:


> ...description for these motors...... Also, I was looking at the instructions for the German motor upgrade and they state the following:
> 
> _"Before switching on the motor or opening the lid, the
> control lever must be on “0”. After correctly converting to
> ...


Technically speaking it is a "repulsion motor". 
Similar one: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Einphasen_Repulsionsmotor_250W.jpg

To understand the lever positions please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repulsion_motor
I prefer a programmable speed control.


----------



## John R C (Mar 15, 2011)

Swamp. I think your over thinking this one just a bit. The motor lever looks to work no different than the throttle/gear stick on a boat. Forward for forward and backwards for reverse. The further forward or backward the gear stick is the faster it will spin. Very simple and dummy proof. As far as the motor lasting a while this is a motor that's going to spin at most 20-40 hrs a year. Will probably spin just a few hours if you keep your hive count below 15. We just had a 30hp motor rewound at my church that runs the AC compressor that was all original from 1957.


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

sjj said:


> Technically speaking it is a "repulsion motor".
> 
> To understand the lever positions please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repulsion_motor
> I prefer a programmable speed control.


So, if we buy a SAF we get a motor of "historical interest"?<chuckle> 

From the wiki article in your link: _"It was formerly used as a traction motor for electric trains[disambiguation needed] but has been superseded by other types of motors and is now only of historical interest."_ 

It appears that the speed and directional control of the spin is controlled by the angular positioning of brushes. Maxant uses a similar looking motor on their 6/3 extractor so I take it the same control method is employeed by them (different motor, of course)...I haven't heard of anyone complaining about having any trouble due to the brushes wearing out or other problems so I figure at least the design must be good and that the motors that Maxant uses must be good. But, all we know about the motor on the SAF is that it is labeld "CHEAP German motor" on SAF's on webpages. I've sent off an email to SAF Natura inquiring about the actual country of origin of the motor and the brand of them. I'll post back the response I get from them.

As for the programmable speed control...no thanks?  It seems it's just something else expensive that could break. A simple electro-mechanical control is good for me as I'm not a large commercial producer...I will be attending the extractor while it is running so no need for a programmable control. I tend to try to adhere to the KISS principle...it fits me better. 

John, you make some good points regarding the duty-cycles of the extractor. I probably am overthinking it all. I understand the operation of the control, thanks for clarifying them. But, something I am curious about is the impact of not having the lever in the "O" position if the lid is opened or if the switch is turned on. They even have an "!!ATTENTION!!" label affixed to the motor/extractor warning about this. What happens if the extractor is switched on with a load in it and the lever is pushed over to "5"....does that right angle gear scream? But, in fairness, would something go "bang!" with a direct drive motor like the Baldor if it was started suddenly under the same load and speed setting???? It just seems to me that more moving parts (and more electronics) are just more things to break. 

Something else I'm not sure about and don't know whether it matters is that the new German motor is an A/C motor whereas (I think I'm right on this, someone correct me if I'm wrong) the Baldor was a DC motor. I believe the DC motor was used because it could handle the torque better..??????? (I'm going off memory here and I could be *completely* wrong about the Baldor motor!!!!)

But, as you pointed out (thanks!) the annual runtime of the extractor will be low...and when they finally throw dirt in my face the heirs to my vast honey empire will probably look at my extractor and say, "It doesn't look like he hardly ever used this...". 

Ed


----------



## John R C (Mar 15, 2011)

The bald or should have been either a 120v or 220v AC motor. To be DC you would have to use a transformer to step the voltage down.


----------



## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

Intheswamp said:


> ... It seems it's just something else expensive that could break. ...
> Ed


It seems your instincts told you that something can go wrong.


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

John R C said:


> The bald or should have been either a 120v or 220v AC motor. To be DC you would have to use a transformer to step the voltage down.


John, check out this post.... http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?218299-Extractor-Motor-specs&p=313731#post313731

Ed


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Way over thinking this. Lot's of older extractors have been running for years on salvaged open frame AC motors out of washing machines, driers, etc. Induction-repulsion motors date back to the 1890's and were invented by Tesla as the first motors that would run on AC. The have a two bearings that can wear out, that's it. Simple and rugged. DC motors have brushes, commutators, etc making them more complex with more wear points. 

Extractors are not transportation, safety equipment, or anything else other than to save you about 8 hours a year. My recommendation is still to find a used one if you think you really need one. How much honey do you have to make and sell to pay for a new one? How long does it take to make up that much honey by "saving the comb"? Save your money and buy a sports car


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

You're probably right, Ross, in that I'm over thinking it. I appreciate the info on the repulsion motors...in a short, regular-guy explanation. Seems, then, that the "new" German motor should be better than the old Baldor, then. And, being as the Baldors have held up very nicely over the years the Geman repulsion motors should, figuring in the fewer wear points, last longer and perform as well. I guess as long as I'm bouncing back and forth and trying to figure out the mystery of the universe my money's still in my pocket. 

I'll be honest with you, I've looked over the last few years for a used extractor. I've limited my search area to within a 200 mile range. I've looked in the off season and in season. So far I've stumbled upon one that probably would have made a good one, but it sold the day before I called.  I'm still looking, though.

Thanks for the feedback!
Ed


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I'm in the same boat , been looking for a year now for used , they either go the same day there advertised or they want as much for it as a new one .


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Or the galvanized metal needs a good cleaning to remove the rust along the seams. 

Ed


----------



## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

My 9 frame itialian hand crank extractor arrived today and as they say "The proof is in the pudding"
I was pleasantly supprised by the workmanship of the unit,,every thing seems well thought out and easy to assemble...It was a no brainer for me---couldn't afford a motorized one " grand kids have strong arms though lol " $490 plus $50 shipping...Some local stuff arround here was about half the price and twice the work and definately antique-ish  

==McBee7==


----------



## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

McBee7 said:


> My 9 frame itialian hand crank extractor arrived today and as they say "The proof is in the pudding"
> I was pleasantly supprised by the workmanship of the unit,,every thing seems well thought out and easy to assemble...It was a no brainer for me---couldn't afford a motorized one " grand kids have strong arms though lol " $490 plus $50 shipping...Some local stuff arround here was about half the price and twice the work and definately antique-ish
> 
> ==McBee7==


As they say "Breathe deeply".


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Is it the same unit Brushy Mt. sells .


----------



## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Yes---I actually ordered it through Blue Sky Bee Supply but it was drop shipped from Brushy Mt. I'm not sure how that works out, but I'm pleased with the price, and the quality..

==McBee7==


----------



## Bee de la Prairie (May 20, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> > The fact that many companies for the past several decades (likely longer) sell smaller extractors seems to suggest that there's a viable long-term market for sub-18 frame models.
> 
> There still seems to be a market for a two frame, hand crank, nonreversible, tangential. Why? It's a mystery to me, but I'm guessing that no one who is buying one has ever used one before... Just because people buy them does not mean they are a good idea.
> QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## Bee de la Prairie (May 20, 2014)

nschomer said:


> So what about the hobbyist who doesn't particularly care about making a profit (or even their money back) on hives, nor do they ever intend to have enough hives to justify an 18-frame extractor, but does want to maximize the amount of honey they can pull out of a couple hives and minimize the amount of work the bees have to do to rebuild their honey stores (I.E. - doesn't want to destroy nice drawn comb with crush and drain)? I think that's your market for the small extractors.




Exactly. Described me to a T


----------



## Bee de la Prairie (May 20, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >Pretty much everyone with less than 10 colonies doesn't need an 18-frame extractor
> 
> Pretty much everyone with less than 10 colonies doesn't need an extractor.


So how do you get the honey? Crush and Strain? No thanks. Small two frame hand crank is easy enough.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Earlier in this thread we were talking about 100.00 difference in a 9 frame and 18 frame extractor , for only a 100.00 more you can get twice the extractor , can anyone think of any reason why not to go with the bigger unit even if I have no intention of needing it now , you never know !! , would cleaning be a bigger job on a bigger extractor or any other down side .

In comparison of the two units there both 24'' hi and the bigger unit is only 2'' wider .


----------



## John R C (Mar 15, 2011)

I'll be getting an 18 frame unit from brushy this winter. I'll let you know how it goes then but here's absolutely no reason to get the 9 frame over the 18.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Sounds like your mind is made up , I wasn't sure which way to go . Are they putting a bigger motor on the 18 frame I hope . Have you had the chance to use one .


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>can anyone think of any reason why not to go with the bigger unit...

No reason at all.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

In the description they say the 18 frame has reverse but the 9 frame doesn't say , what is the advantage of having a reverse mode . And how do they get twice as many frames in the uint and its only 2'' wider .


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

The reverse option... I wonder if it's because as the extractor spins the honey on the backside of the comb slings out radially *and* tangentially whereas the front side of the comb only slings out radially? Kind of like filling a cup up with water and spinning around holding it it front of you and tilting it so the mouth faces the direction of spin...the water will mostly stay inside the cup if spun fast enough...if you turn it around where the bottom faces the direction of spin the water will pour out. Thus switching the direction of the spin might sling more honey out of the original leading side of the comb. Having said that, working with my mentor and his nine frame extractor we've never been concerned with reversing the spin (or frames) to get the last few drops of honey out. I'm not sure how big of a positive feature this is. :scratch: I would imagine that with a large number of frames that the extra amount of honey acquired by reversing could be substantial...for smaller numbers of frames the additional honey my be irrelevant.

As for doubling the number of frames in a 2" wider extractor...I'll let somebody smart answer that one. 

Just some thoughts, FWIW,
Ed


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>what is the advantage of having a reverse mode 

I have never been able to discern any advantage... but it doesn't hurt...


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> And how do they get twice as many frames in the uint and its only 2'' wider .

If you are talking about the Brushy 9 frame model, its 21" in diameter, and their 18 frame model is 26" diameter according to the linked web pages.

The theoretical number of frames that can fit in a given extractor is limited by the circumference of a circle at the 'bottom bar' end of the frame when loaded in the extractor. Remember, frames are loaded into an extractor sideways - one of the 'end bars' is facing the bottom of the extractor drum, and the 'top bars' are nearest the outer edge of the drum.

For medium frames (6.25" high), a rough approximation follows:
- allow 1" from the outside extractor drum diameter to the point where the frame top bar begins.
- radius of extractor is 1/2 of total diameter
- allow 1.6" along radius of circle for frame 'bottom bar'

21" diameter = (10.5" radius) - (1" gap) - (6.25" frame height) = 2.75" radius(9 frame model)
26" diameter = (13.0" radius) - (1" gap) - (6.25" frame height) = 5.75" radius  (18 frame model)

2.75" radius * (2) * pi = circumference of the circle where frame 'bottom bar' is = 17" (9 frame model)
5.75" radius * (2) * pi = circumference of the circle where frame 'bottom bar' is = 36" ( 18 frame model)

Based on the above, the theoretical maximum frames that can fit ...
17" / 1.6" = *10.6 frames *in a 21" diameter drum (9 frame model)
36" / 1.6 = *22.5 frames *in a 26" diameter drum (18 frame model)

I did not go measure the distance between the outer edge of the top bar and the outer drum diameter. This is just '_off the cuff_' work based on the diameters stated on the BM web page ... ...


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Rader , the extractors I'm referring to are the power models , the 9 frame is 24'' tall and 24'' wide , the 18 frame is 24'' hi and 26'' wide according to there website , I don't doubt them just wondered how 2'' additional inches in diameter could fit in twice as many frames .

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/9-Frame-Power-Radial-Extractor-w_German-motor/productinfo/831G/

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.co...al-Extractor-w_German-motor/productinfo/801G/


----------



## Belewsboy (Jun 6, 2012)

LT...still haven't decided? I don't blame you for getting all the info you can before making your purchase. Here's a little more info for you. As you know I bought the 18 frame from BM. Having only used a 4 frame tangential hand crank, this thing was a joy to use and made quick work out of my hives. I even spun off my neighbor's and he was impressed as well. He showed up with 4 9 frame medium supers. Spun it all in 2 setups. Never a hitch. I even ran 4 frames once which will give an out-of-balance situation. I tried to gage the weight of each frame and place in a way as to offset the balance. It ran fine with minimal vibration. In fact I never anchored the legs or screwed to a board or anything special...I just placed the unit on a rug and let her go. Very stable.
Now...having said this, there are 2 things I don't like about it. The first is when installing frames in to the reel, some frames rock forward (toward the ID) and are not cradled in the notch at the top OD. I got the feeling they would fly all over the place when spinning as they are not constrained properly. However, if you start off slowly they will rock back into the notch and thus become constrained properly. I have not looked into why they rock forward, but I think it is due to the frame being slightly out of square. A little bit of out of square at the bottom will cause the frame to lean a fair amount at the top.
The other thing, which has nothing to do with this particular unit, is I blew out some comb when extracting some really thick deeps. Fearing this I ran them really slowly...so slowly there was not a lot of extracting going on. I guess the larger area of comb needs more support so the comb/foundation does not pull out of the grooved bottom rail. Maybe you just have to spin it really slowly for a long period of time to prevent the blow out. I think a tangential would support the entire face and not allow the comb to pull out. I am fortunate to work in a machine / fabrication company and can build some sleeves out of expanded stainless which will support the sides of a deep, but I don't think I'll be spinning many deeps in the future. I did this year as all my hives backfilled like nobody's business, so I took a few frames to open up the brood boxes for the queen.
All in all I am pleased with the unit. Clean up was a snap. I have no regrets and extracting was fast and easy. And, more importantly, I won't out grow it. If you'd like some pictures of a particular area or a better description of a part, let me know and I'll post them.
Good luck with your search!


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> the extractors I'm referring to are the power models , the 9 frame is 24'' tall and 24'' wide ...

Its seems unlikely that SAF (likely manufacturer of the Brushy extractors) goes to the expense of making different extractor drum sizes just because one version has a motor vs hand crank. Most likely they are the same size drum. Brushy states conflicting info on the size of their tank - for instance this Brushy brochure on the 18 frame model says 26" diameter and also says that model is 24" diameter. 

Regardless, a small increase in tank diameter allows a significant increase in frame count. See post #81 for the math - you can change the numbers to whatever specifics you like, but the concept remains the same. The controlling factor of how many frames can fit in the extractor is how many frames can fit around the crude 'circle' defined by all the frame 'bottom bars'.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Belewsboy , thanks for the report , I'm glad its working good for you it sounds like a good unit . In the brochure that rader posted a link to it mentions that the basket doesn't come with the 18 frame model , any idea what there referring to .I do see some racks that are avail. maybe for tangential use , not sure. Rader thanks for the all the info .


----------



## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Looks to me like the SAF motors are either the CHEAP one, AC only, or the Natura one, which is DC. Either appears to be reversible, with digital speed control for Natura, and a lever type speed control for CHEAP. Not to be confused with the Maxant manual speed control, where a variable-diameter pulley is adjusted with a control knob.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

What is the reverse used for on these extractors .


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Just got off the chatline with Brushy and there saying the 9 and 18 frame are D/C and the 21 and 27 are A/C . Does that make sense the bigger uints are A/C .


----------



## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Reverse on a tangential extractor is NICE because one must flip the frames and extract from one side at a time. 

An argument could be made that even in a radial extractor, there is a benefit from reverse... honey will flow out centrifugally toward the top bar, but as well, it would be more apt to flow out of the cells on the side opposite the direction of rotation. This being theory, as I have never used a radial yet. I would postulate that using a slower speed with longer time, a radial would extract both sides satisfactorily. I'm sure users of radials can provide better answers for ya.



laketrout said:


> What is the reverse used for on these extractors .


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

What about the D/C motor on the 9 frame and 18 frame , is the D/C the better motor .


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Reverse on a tangential extractor is erquired because one must flip the frames and extract from one side at a time. 

OK, I admit I've never extracted frames tangentially, but I don't see why the tangential extractor motor needs to run in reverse to extract the other side of the frame. Once the frames themselves are flipped (either vertically or horizontally), what benefit is there to having the motor run backwards?


----------



## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Not sure I'd classify one or the other as better, without qualification. Both have certain characteristics that may be preferable, based on a particular situation. AC motors will trypically outlast DC motors, in that DC motors have brushes. But those are typically cheap and not too difficult to replace. Call it higher maintenance costs. DC motors are most often used in variable speed applications; simply reduce the voltage and the motor slows down.

90% of AC motors are induction motors, and most are fixed-speed. And under about 1/2 HP, are fairly cheap to produce. Speed variation comes from a change in frequency, not voltage, which is not as simple to do as in a DC motor. Also, AC motors shouldn't be run any lower than 1/3 their rated speed due to thermal issues. If low speed is a need, then a DC motor is probably the best option, or a variable-speed system (such as a variable-diameter pulley) that maintains the motor at a constant speed, as cooling of the motor is directly tied to motor speed. AC motors also suffer from "back EMF", which in essence resists the current as motor speed increases. So the faster a motor spins, the more energy it takes to make it spin, not only as friction is overcome, but due to reverse magnetic fields.

Those are just some generalities. The pros and cons of each motor can be overcome somewhat, but at what expense? If one wants a motor that runs slow and is capable of reversing, DC is a simpler way to accomplish that. Yes, an AC setup can be had, but it will take more work and cost to do the same thing. But if one desires a motor that needs no maintenance for 10 years (think: bearings) and runs at its normal rated speed most of the time, AC may be better.



laketrout said:


> What about the D/C motor on the 9 frame and 18 frame , is the D/C the better motor .


----------



## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

I changed REQUIRED to NICE, because you are correct, one can flip the frames in such a way that one direction of rotation would still extract from a flipped frame. But with a manual, two-way extractor, I don't have to pay as much attention when I load the frames. If I happen to load them backwards from the first side extraction, I simply spin the handle the other way. So reverse isn't required, per se.



Rader Sidetrack said:


> > OK, I admit I've never extracted frames tangentially, but I don't see why the tangential extractor motor needs to run in reverse to extract the other side of the frame. Once the frames themselves are flipped (either vertically or horizontally), what benefit is there to having the motor run backwards?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What about the D/C motor on the 9 frame and 18 frame , is the D/C the better motor .

If you want variable speed, which I think is necessary for a good extractor, D/C is the easiest way to provide it. As F16Hawk pointed out, most A/C motors are fixed speed, which means that if you are to have variable speed it would have to be done in the transmission portion of the system. An adjustable belt tightener works (if you're building your own). It sounds strange, but I've seen lithographic printing presses that used this simple method for speed control. It simply allows limited slip to slow things down up to no slip for the fastest speed.


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

That's the way the older Dadant speed controls work. They use a slip pulley with a simple wing nut on top to change the speed. My Dadant 20 is 30-40 years old and still going strong. I don't know why anyone would want electronics on a small extractor. Just something else to break that no one can fix. 

You won't wear out either type of motor as a hobbiest. Your washing machine and drier use cheap A/C motors and run far more in a year than your extractor will.


----------



## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

A slip type pulley is one option, but a better one is a variable-diameter pulley. The two halves of the pulley are not fixed together, but the gap between them is allowed to widen (which decreases the diameter) or narrow (increases the diameter of the pulley). Common on lawn mowers and lawn tractors. In fact, I think the Nissan Murano uses the concept.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>but a better one is a variable-diameter pulley

From an engineering perspective, I'm sure it is... from a cost and simplicity perspective a simple tightener is remarkably efficient.


----------



## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Yes, yes it is. Has been used for years. Makes me wonder if those little bits of belt will be caught and removed by the filter? :scratch:



Michael Bush said:


> >but a better one is a variable-diameter pulley
> 
> From an engineering perspective, I'm sure it is... from a cost and simplicity perspective a simple tightener is remarkably efficient.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The belt life is remarkably long considering it is slipping... I don't think there is much...


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

F6Hawk said:


> A slip type pulley is one option, but a better one is a variable-diameter pulley. The two halves of the pulley are not fixed together, but the gap between them is allowed to widen (which decreases the diameter) or narrow (increases the diameter of the pulley). Common on lawn mowers and lawn tractors. In fact, I think the Nissan Murano uses the concept.


Yes, but Reeves drives are more expensive and more likely to need service.


----------



## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Reeves drives. Thanks Ross, I was unaware of the name. Better to know proper name of the system! 



Ross said:


> Yes, but Reeves drives are more expensive and more likely to need service.


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

They are used on a lot of machinery like woodworking equipment.


----------

