# Africanized Bees



## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

I'm new on this forum so maybe this has been discussed before. If so, please point me to the threads.

Here in southern California (Orange County) a number of beekeepers keep what I'll call "feral" hives. That is, hives that they've acquired from people who have called about swarms or removal of colonies. Several of the Beekeepers are "save the bees" types of people and have 75 to 100 hives. According to various sources, southern California has Africanized bees and has had them for quite a while - probably 15 or more years.

In reading about Africanized bees, especially "Africanized Honey Bees in the Americas" by Dewey Caron, I'm led to believe that the African genes predominate in feral hives once Africanized bees move into an area.

But the "feral" bees I and other beekeepers work with do not display the traits that Caron describes in his book. They are more defensive than pure Italians but only moderately more defensive. If they are smoked and the hive worked smoothly, there really is no problem. And I've never even heard of one of those managed hives in this area attacking in mass as described for Africanized bees. And the beekeepers do not re-queen. These are local bees and wild mated queens.

So what's going on? Are the Africanized bees being naturally selected in some way for less defensiveness? That is, are we, the beekeepers in this area, along with the exterminators, killing off the most defensive Africanized bees and only keeping the less defensive bees? Or is there a mixing of the genes and the Africanized bees have become less defensive in their march up from South America as they've interbred with Italian bees?

Mike

[If this is the wrong forum to post this question, moderators please move it to the appropriate forum.]


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I got called up about delivering Nucs to an accomplished beek out of Long Beach. His local club is dominated by "save the bee -- NO treatment" types. He said he was tired of keeping homicidal bees and wanted some with known bloodline. We laughed about the "Feral Bee" types -- he said the leader had been refused entrance to other bee clubs for that individuals' total lack of "bedside manner and polite demeanor". 

I'm familiar with a young beek in Orange Co who got caught up with the "We only have Nice African" crowd, and it was all well and good till her recently hived swarm killed the neighbors dog. 

So the propaganda about "we have nice African hybrids" is intense and all encompassing, but as people gain experience they come to realize that the "story" is a self-defeating (and quite dangerous) box.


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

JWChesnut said:


> I got called up about delivering Nucs to an accomplished beek out of Long Beach. His local club is dominated by "save the bee -- NO treatment" types. He said he was tired of keeping homicidal bees and wanted some with known bloodline. We laughed about the "Feral Bee" types -- he said the leader had been refused entrance to other bee clubs for that individuals' total lack of "bedside manner and polite demeanor".
> 
> So the propaganda about "we have nice African hybrids" is intense and all encompassing, but as people gain experience they come to realize that the "story" is a self-defeating (and quite dangerous) box.


Thanks, but that's not what I was asking. I, and others, have "feral" bees and they are not as described by Caron. And it's not just one or two hives and not just one or two beekeepers, and it's not just one or two years. At least two of those beekeepers put hives in the backyards of non-beekeepers and manage them for the homeowners.

So my question is what's going on? Why are we seeing what is apparently Africanized bees that do not respond in the intense defensive manner as described by Caron?

One possibility is that they're not Africanized. But everything I read is that once Africanized bees move into an area their genetics take over the feral bee population.

The second possibility is that there is some evolutionary pressure that is selecting for less defensiveness. But I don't know what that would be except that the more defensive hives are being destroyed.

Any ideas?

Mike


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## HoneyMonk (Sep 30, 2016)

First, you'd need to positively identify said bees by sending them to lab since they are phenotypically indistinguishable from Italians. That said, it happened like this in, Puerto Rico. Resilience to disease is rated high but I think it has more to do with brood breaks from incessant swarming behavior and the sense to abscond when pressure mounts. For the record - I've been known to keep hot hives; but, have no direct experience with anything positively identified as ahb. I'm certain some ahb experts will drop their first hand accounts.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I was discussing this recently with a bee keeping scientist, and he feels the summer monsoon experienced by AHB in Texas and Arizona is a key feature. California (for the greater part) has no fall monsoon, and "pure type" AHB are at a strong disadvantage to EHB that store honey against California's crushing dearth. Indeed, AHB invasion front has remained remarkably stable in Ca for more than a decade (approaching two), so a climatic limit is plausible. However, urban bees foraging on irrigated landscaping have the advantage of an artificial "monsoon", and would logically become strongly Africanized.

However, I know Beeks in San Diego County that are very wary of feral genetics (and can cite multiple incidents to confirm this caution), so I remain convinced that much of "our AHB are nice houseguests" blather put out by Long Beach area bee clubs is pure wishful thinking.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

The actual sampled distribution of AHB mitochondrial genetics in San Diego County recently.
Source:Range and Frequency of Africanized Honey Bees in California
free download at: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0137407


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## pjigar (Sep 13, 2016)

Related question: I have two hives. One hive (#1) with know buckfast italian mutt queen and another (#2) with unknown Italian queen. #1 bees only jump on me when I mess up (shack, drop, etc.) and do not follow more than 10 feet. #2 bees hover around and sting every time work the hive and follow me for for 100 yards. Would the #2 qualify as africanized?


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

HoneyMonk said:


> First, you'd need to positively identify said bees by sending them to lab since they are phenotypically indistinguishable from Italians. That said, it happened like this in, Puerto Rico. Resilience to disease is rated high but I think it has more to do with brood breaks from incessant swarming behavior and the sense to abscond when pressure mounts. For the record - I've been known to keep hot hives; but, have no direct experience with anything positively identified as ahb. I'm certain some ahb experts will drop their first hand accounts.


You're right and that's one thing I'd like to do - have them analyzed to find out if they are Africanized. The places that I've found that will do an identification will not do it for private individuals. Do you know of a lab that will do an identification?

I worked with bees as a young person but then my career kept me from doing anything with them. When I retired, I had the opportunity to capture a feral swarm and did so. Then I started to research more about the present state of honeybees and found that Africanized bees were present in my area. After reading Caron on Africanized bees, I became concerned about safety. I knew local commercial beekeepers who keep feral bees and queried them about their experience. None reported the type of behavior described by Caron and I had not experienced that behavior with my hive.

But my hive is more defensive than Italian bees. I watched a commercial migratory beekeeper work his hives (in the brood section, not just supers) wearing shorts, a t-shirt and no veil. I could not do that with my hive.

So I'm trying to figure out what's going on. Am I sitting on a time bomb? Or are they not Africanized? Or if they are Africanized have they evolved to be more docile? 

The reason the local beekeepers (and me) keep feral bees is that they're low maintenance. The manage varroa well and seem to thrive in this area. And they're productive.

Mike


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

JWChesnut said:


> I was discussing this recently with a bee keeping scientist, and he feels the summer monsoon experienced by AHB in Texas and Arizona is a key feature. California (for the greater part) has no fall monsoon, and "pure type" AHB are at a strong disadvantage to EHB that store honey against California's crushing dearth. Indeed, AHB invasion front has remained remarkably stable in Ca for more than a decade (approaching two), so a climatic limit is plausible. However, urban bees foraging on irrigated landscaping have the advantage of an artificial "monsoon", and would logically become strongly Africanized.
> 
> However, I know Beeks in San Diego County that are very wary of feral genetics (and can cite multiple incidents to confirm this caution), so I remain convinced that much of "our AHB are nice houseguests" blather put out by Long Beach area bee clubs is pure wishful thinking.


In urban areas, where I am, there is no dearth because people irrigate and have flowers all year long.

I walk my dog and there's a feral hive in a decorative pillar in front of a house (right at the road). The pillar is about 14 inches wide (square) and hollow. There's an electrical conduit going into the pillar and that's where the bees have their entrance. It's a great hive facility. Based on the traffic going into and out of the pillar, the hive is pretty good size. I doubt if the owners even know they have bees in there.

People walk past that pillar every day and through the bee's flight path and apparently nobody had gotten stung (because the hive is still there). I've poked around close to the entrance to see what was going on and was not bothered. That is not Africanized bee behavior.

So I'm confused. Caron says that once Africanized bees populate an area their genetics take over the area. But these bees do not show Africanized traits.

Another data point. I went on a "nature" tour of the wild wetlands area behind the Prado Dam here, and talked with one of the biologists who works there. I asked him about bees. He replied that when Africanized bees first entered this area, they could tell the difference because the Africanized bees would nest at ground level while the European bees would nest in the trees. He said now they seem to have hybridized and they all nest in the trees. He was not a bee specialists, however.

Mike


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

Nice to see you here, Mike, in addition to SMC.  And thanks for starting a very interesting conversation!


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

Jim_in_PA said:


> Nice to see you here, Mike, in addition to SMC.  And thanks for starting a very interesting conversation!


Thanks, Jim. Seems a lot of us have the same hobbies I hope your bees are doing well.

Mike


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Much of the recent threads in the FB group "Urban beekeepers of Los Angeles" -- a self identified "Natural TF beekeeping" group concerns dealing with super-aggressive AHB.... so unless Orange County is unique, the LA Basin has a genuine issue, and not "misunderstood gentle hybrids"


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

JWChesnut said:


> Much of the recent threads in the FB group "Urban beekeepers of Los Angeles" -- a self identified "Natural TF beekeeping" group concerns dealing with super-aggressive AHB.... so unless Orange County is unique, the LA Basin has a genuine issue, and not "misunderstood gentle hybrids"
> View attachment 28777
> 
> View attachment 28778
> ...


Yes, it's very well documented that Africanized bees are in southern California - and for about the past 15 years. What I'm asking about is my own experience with feral bees. I and other beekeepers are keeping feral bees in this area and find them to be more defensive than European but only mildly so. What I'm wondering about is whether I have hybrid bees (African/European), or African bees that have evolved to be less defensive, or what.

In my investigations so far, I've interviewed two companies who "rescue" bees. That is, if you have a swarm or established colony in your wall, one or the other will come out and take the bees. One company will only take swarms - and only ones that can be reached with about a 10 foot ladder. They charge for doing that (I think the price for a simple swarm removal was about $75). Then they hive the bees.

The other company will do swarms but will also do removal from buildings (where you have to remove part of a wall, for example). The cost is MUCH higher for that. If they can get the whole hive, they will hive it in a regular hive box.

Both have reported that they have not encountered bees that are extremely defensive (mass attacks).

So what are the feral bees in this area? Europeans that have evolved varroa hygiene (and are a bit more defensive), or hybrids of Europeans and Africans, or Africans that have evolved to be less defensive?

Any opinions?

Mike


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Until you have tested your local bees there isn't a way to say for sure.
Beekeeping is all local! Each individual experience is different from the other.
If you really want to know then you must test them out. Find a local bee club to see
if they can provide you with some good information. Let's take a small nuc hive for example.
When they are dense in hive population there will be less guard bees. The remaining young nurse
bees are struggling to even keep the brood nest warm. As the season progressed the hive grew larger
sending out more guard bees. Now comparing to a small nuc versus a full grown hive, you will see the
big difference in their behaviors especially their defensive behaviors. The only difference here is how the
AHB behaved versus how the EHB behaved once they got disturbed. This example will not answer your
question about the local AHB population. The only way to know is to grow some hives yourself while continuously
monitor their behaviors over several seasons. Open mate some daughter queens from the EHB colony to further
evaluate them. It is all local!

p.S. After playing with 2 mean AHB colonies my first year, I found out that we do have the gentle type bees to keep.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Just because you go out and get a swarm, does not mean that those are what I'd call "feral bees". If you are in a location with a fair amount of bee keepers in the area then the chances are high that the swarm you are retrieving is just from someone else's manage hive or hives. This will be even more likely true if you are in the city or largely residential areas, as there are more and more hobby bee keepers coming online each year. This may be at least some of the answer to your questions. It is of course also natural to assume that over greater and greater periods of time that the africanization of bees gets reduced as a percentage of gene types in the bees, from being diluted more and more with the managed honey bee hives in the area, especially since there are more and more managed hives each year. This is just my thoughts on the subject and I don't consider myself to be any kind of expert about it.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

I'm sure there are better, more current sources, but from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africanized_bee
"There are two lineages of African subspecies _Apis mellifera scutellata_in the Americas: actual matrilinial descendants of the original escaped queens and a much smaller number that are African through hybridization. The matrilinial descendants carry African mtDNA, but partially European nuclear DNA, while the bees that are African through hybridization carry European mtDNA, and partially African nuclear DNA. The matrilinial descendants are in the vast majority. This is supported by DNA analyses performed on the bees as they spread northwards; those that were at the "vanguard" were over 90% African mtDNA, indicating an unbroken matriline,[SUP][31][/SUP] but after several years in residence in an area interbreeding with the local European strains, as in Brazil, the overall representation of African mtDNA drops to some degree. However, these latter hybrid lines (with European mtDNA) do not appear to propagate themselves well or persist.[SUP][32][/SUP] Population genetics analysis of Africanized honey bees in the United States, using a materially inherited genetic marker, found 12 distinct mitotypes, and the amount of genetic variation observed supports the idea that there have been multiple introductions of AHB into the United States.[SUP][33]"[/SUP]

I'm sure the mix changes over time and I have no other current data. However, in the US it seems safe to conclude that they are all hybrids at some level. Which genes are expressed, which ones will show up in later generations, what the drone mix during mating, the current queen state, the flow, ongoing robbing, location, and many other things go into a colonies temperment on any given day. We work with what we have and select the "best" available going forward. This is no different than any other breeding program. With bee generations it can be seen much faster than in most other species.

Many hobby beekeepers don't consider that they have a breeding program. However, bees are wild insects and, unless lab controlled, mate in the open. Since we don't cull every drone or abort every queen cell we are contributing to natural program. Those that choose to keep colonies that exhibit generally undesirable traits negatively influence every future generation of every colony around them.

As beekeepers, we have a responsibility to other beekeepers and society in general to improve the stock. It seems that in times past the goal of the "ideal bee" and what defined "improve" was agreed upon by most keepers. I'm not so sure the goal is the same with the current wide variety of people with bees. In AHB areas I think we should all actively deselect aggressive behavior, but others don't agree. Aside from the ideal goal and social/political/ethical issues, the economic issues are always an influence that have a tendency to override everything else.

Stepping off soap box now...

To directly address the OP, it is all about the genes. The AHB we deal with is a hybrid by definition. Each colony has the potential to turn bad and we need to be prepared and watchful. Apparently in Puerto Rico they are no longer aggressive, but that could just be marketing. An influx of new bees or a different reporter could change that again.


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

Good comments, thanks. It sounds like what I and others in this area have are European colonies that had swarmed and managed to survive for some time in the wild. The thing that was worrying me was the varroa resistance. My hive, and the hives of others that I'm aware of with feral stock, do not have varroa issues. Not that we don't have any varroa but the bees control the varroa pretty well. This led me to believe that what I might have is Africanized stock since Africanized bees have resistance to varroa.

I posted here because I was very concerned about liability if the bees I have would injure someone or an animal.

Just a bit more background, I have one hive that I've had for about five years (I now have two hives). It cast a swarm about two years ago and the new queen mated wild. The hive was not a real problem before the swarm nor after. It was a bit more defensive than some European hives that my dad had back in the 1950's but did not do the mass attacks that you hear about with Africanized bees.

The thing that put some fear into me was reading Caron's book on Africanized bees. He seemed to say that once Africanized bees enter an area, the feral bees all become Africanized, and Africanized bees were liable to attack in mass any person or animal that they percieved as a threat to the hive.

So unless I experience significantly greater defensive behavior from my hives, I'll assume they're European. Thanks to everyone who posted your comments and advice here.

Mike


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## HoneyMonk (Sep 30, 2016)

Mike Henderson said:


> You're right and that's one thing I'd like to do - have them analyzed to find out if they are Africanized. The places that I've found that will do an identification will not do it for private individuals. Do you know of a lab that will do an identification?
> 
> I worked with bees as a young person but then my career kept me from doing anything with them. When I retired, I had the opportunity to capture a feral swarm and did so. Then I started to research more about the present state of honeybees and found that Africanized bees were present in my area. After reading Caron on Africanized bees, I became concerned about safety. I knew local commercial beekeepers who keep feral bees and queried them about their experience. None reported the type of behavior described by Caron and I had not experienced that behavior with my hive.
> 
> ...


Think I know where you're going with this Mike when you say "time bombs". Are you at 2 or 3 brood boxes yet? The life death cycle seems to normalize at 2 brood boxes w/optimal worker numbers at all stages of life before running into diminishing returns or finding a second queen. If you are at two brood boxes and it hasn't "exploded", you should just keep on doing a great job. Did you see a demo by a commercial beekeeper on one hive or did you see him work the entire yard and pull honey? I know some migratory keepers that don't care about gentle as much as other traits. Beekeepers with warm hives gain more experience and get closer to the true nature of the animal than people that haven't ever kept bees that have their natural instincts intact. My bees destroy robbers that try to get in their hives. They relentlessly wrestle beetles and bite mites. And, they sure ain't making any exceptions for me when I split those seals. I think it's fair. That's just the way nature goes. There is nothing natural about having bees just sit there while you rip all the seals out of their home. I tried having lapdog bees once and they got robbed out by local mutts. The wolf was watered down to the ****zu. But we know that the best bet is always the MUTT. Sounds like that's what you've got. I'd make a split in the spring from this hive and pick a queen that can ride the dearth, doesn't swarm late season, etc. pinch the other one and combine. Wash, rinse, and repeat. Eventually people that are serious will come knocking on your door for "survivor stock". I'm in a dearth no dearth climate. Survivor stock has a different meaning to me than it does to people in Minnesota. I think the same applies to you. Also, it's one thing to raise mutts. It's another to manage and select queen mothers from them. If it's just too much to ask, you could always requeen with a lapdog and view the local mutts as your enemy, always worried about the "local drones" found in "nature". Been there, done that. Prefer, to have strong bees and booming hives. Whatever the case, I wish you luck and fun. Keeping bees is awesome. 

Here's info on Puerto Rico from the smithsonian that I was talking about. 

"Why Puerto Rico's Killer Bees Stopped Killing"
https://youtu.be/psBomn2cPNw


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

@HoneyMonk - My biggest hive is at two brood boxes and that's as far as I'll go. Can't see any reason to go three.

The commercial beekeeper was giving a demo when he was working in shorts and a t-shirt but he claimed that he did not normally wear protection when working in his bee yard.

I've had the 2 brood box hive for about 5 years and have not seen any real problems. My problem was reading Caron's book on Africanized bees. I haven't been able to find any current information on the state of Africanized bees in my area. Everything seems to have stopped about 2010 to 2012. I don't know if that means they just aren't a problem so there's no studies or reports on them. I have sent an email to an etymologist at UC Riverside asking about Africanized bees in this area. Just have to wait and see if he responds.

Mike


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## HoneyMonk (Sep 30, 2016)

Hey Mike - I don't have that book but did read a few excerpts like the part about elevation and aggressiveness. This may actually apply to bees in general and not just AHB as an increase in barometric pressure on overcast days manifests in higher levels of aggression. Check out that video from the Smithsonian. They attribute the lower aggression in their AHB to higher percentage of foragers to soldiers. Vissher at Riverside would be the direct route. Also, a quick search of your Dept of Food and Ag revealed that they no longer track for AHB and put the onus on county commissioners. Might be a reason for the drop off in data. 

CDFA June 4, 2015 

https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/pollinators/docs/minutes/HPWG-MtgSummary-06-04-15.pdf


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

Mike Henderson said:


> In reading about Africanized bees, especially "Africanized Honey Bees in the Americas" by Dewey Caron, I'm led to believe that the African genes predominate in feral hives once Africanized bees move into an area.


That book is about 15 years old, was wildly speculative and currently pointed out as being incorrect in it's speculation by many professional speakers. 

Regardless of genetics, if the bees are too hot (and you WILL know their nature by the time they're a double deep), requeen.


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

ChuckReburn said:


> That book is about 15 years old, was wildly speculative and currently pointed out as being incorrect in it's speculation by many professional speakers.
> 
> Regardless of genetics, if the bees are too hot (and you WILL know their nature by the time they're a double deep), requeen.


Thanks. One of my hives has been in two deep brood boxes (and two supers) for close to five years and they're not bad to deal with. So I guess I should quit worrying.

Is there anything more current on Africanized bees? A book or even a website that will give the current state of Africanized bees and whether they are becoming less defensive in the United States?

Mike


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

Mike Henderson said:


> Thanks. One of my hives has been in two deep brood boxes (and two supers) for close to five years and they're not bad to deal with. So I guess I should quit worrying.
> 
> Is there anything more current on Africanized bees? A book or even a website that will give the current state of Africanized bees and whether they are becoming less defensive in the United States?
> 
> Mike


I spend a bit of time with research scientists, local breeders and removers. The media and research money went into "killer bees" in the 80's - extensive testing, swarm traps, etc. And there WAS a presumption they would sweep up into North America spreading terror (at least if you listened to the media). I'm not aware of any baseline study that looked to link the % of the genetic presenting and a scientific determination as to the level of defensiveness. It was presumed that the defensive bees encountered had some % of African genetics - but again, this was a sampling of bees reported a defensive and not a subjective assessment as to the level of defensiveness. AND the epidemic of killers never manifested and the research money went away. I see it being focused on honey bee health and contaminates (interesting work on the synergistic effects of fungicides and miticides lately).

There are a few sites which show the progression of AHB - what gets interesting is the maps show political boundaries of states and counties where queen breeders were apparently immune to the genetic influx... They weren't and aren't - if testing is done, it reveals some % of AHB.

Documentation of defensive European bees goes back 100 years (Miller) and a recent test by a research team on an island revealed a European strain as defensive as the worst AHB. 

So, I'm not arguing that there aren't "Highly Defensive Bee's" and that a good portion of them don't carry the African gene, It's just a broad sweeping stereotype to expect the appearance of the African gene in a genetic profile equates to aggressiveness.

And yes, I've worked with bees that boil over, ignore smoke and cloud a veil filling the air with alarm pheromone, responded to fire department calls, etc. so I'm not trivializing the risk. And at the same time, 
what I see on multiple sites (this one included) is newbies taking a sting or 2 when poorly working a hive and saying, "Must be AHB."


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

Mike, I don't know if you saw this thread in the general group here, but just in case, here's a link to it as it's related to your topic. Apologies if it's already been mentioned.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...s-and-Cons-of-the-AHB-(Africanized-Honey-Bee)


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Mike Henderson said:


> The commercial beekeeper was giving a demo when he was working in shorts and a t-shirt but he claimed that he did not normally wear protection when working in his bee yard.
> 
> Mike


I went to a local queen raising meeting just over in LA a few miles a few months ago and made a comment about people handling hives that way. The three beeks leading the class laughed and basicially said have the ambulance on call that doesn't happen with our bees on the Gulf Coast. You will get eaten up or you bees will get wiped out if they are they nice.

Just FYI


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## LeifLiberty (Sep 23, 2014)

Seems like one should just treat all bees as though they could be dangerous. If they prove to have undesirable traits, like being too hot to work, then re-queen them. A terribly mean hive is about the only situation that I would consider culling drones...


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

Jim_in_PA said:


> Mike, I don't know if you saw this thread in the general group here, but just in case, here's a link to it as it's related to your topic. Apologies if it's already been mentioned.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...s-and-Cons-of-the-AHB-(Africanized-Honey-Bee)


Thanks, Jim. I did see that thread but after I posted my own question. Seems that anything about Africanized bees generates lots of discussion and opinions on many sides.



LeifLiberty said:


> Seems like one should just treat all bees as though they could be dangerous. If they prove to have undesirable traits, like being too hot to work, then re-queen them. A terribly mean hive is about the only situation that I would consider culling drones...


I agree, that's the best approach. What was worrying me was that Africanized bees are known to have arrived in my area a good many years ago. And then after reading Caron's book on Africanized bees, where he states that the Africanized traits predominate in an area where Africanized bee are located, I started to worry about my hives (one that I've had for about 5 years), and the liability I might have if my bees attacked a person or animal.

So my posting here was to try to gain a better understanding of Africanized bees and how to determine if my bees were Africanized. It seems that the answer is essentially what you said - look at how defensive they are and go from there. That you don't have to determine if they're Africanized, a hybrid, or European - if the hive is too hot, take action (such as requeening).

I was really concerned - to the point of losing sleep worrying about it. I feel better now after reading all your comments. Thanks to everyone who posted.

Mike


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If you are too worry to the point of thinking too much and losing sleep then each
season requeen your hives with the EHB genetics. Since you don't have 100s of hives you
don't need to worry about it much. If one day you have 100 hives then the area will be
dominated by your EHB genetics to create a safe buffer zone. Don't think about it too much as each
beekeeper has his or her own experiences. You will know how aggressive the hives will be by the
time it gets to 2 deeps.


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

beepro said:


> If you are too worry to the point of thinking too much and losing sleep then each
> season requeen your hives with the EHB genetics. Since you don't have 100s of hives you
> don't need to worry about it much. If one day you have 100 hives then the area will be
> dominated by your EHB genetics to create a safe buffer zone. Don't think about it too much as each
> ...


I'm no longer so worried that I can't sleep. The discussion we've had here has pointed at the right solution, which is:

*Don't worry about the genetics of the hive - only be concerned about the behavior of the hive. If they're not excessively defensive all is well.*

Mike


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Then how can one recognized the excessive defensive behaviors?
What one can tolerate the other cannot. So what is excessive to you as a 
beekeeper? To what point are you willing to take?
Going back my first 2 hives. Every time within 8 feet they sent off the guard
bees. Got stung on my butt on a hive check with the full suit on. Back then I still
think this was quite normal behaviors. Found out later that we have much gentler bees I
can keep without this AHB issues. I tolerated them more than needed back then but no more!


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

beepro said:


> Then how can one recognized the excessive defensive behaviors?
> What one can tolerate the other cannot. So what is excessive to you as a
> beekeeper? To what point are you willing to take?
> Going back my first 2 hives. Every time within 8 feet they sent off the guard
> ...


I know what is too defensive for me. And I've worked with European bees and know their general defensive behavior. So, for me, the decision is subjective, I may not be able to define it exactly, but I know it when I see it. And I know what I'm willing to put up with.

Mike

Mike


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

beepro said:


> Then how can one recognized the excessive defensive behaviors?
> What one can tolerate the other cannot. So what is excessive to you as a
> beekeeper? To what point are you willing to take?
> Going back my first 2 hives. Every time within 8 feet they sent off the guard
> ...


Curious, did you confirm AHB through FABIS or USDA-ID?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

At first I did not know that they are the AHB because I'm new at beekeeping. Did not know
about any bee lab either. Only after my 2nd seasons that I found out based on my research on their aggressive
behaviors. Then I found some gentle EHB to keep. So instead of getting the gentle type
bees when I started, I kept the really aggressive hives. These hives nobody want them sitting at
the almond farm. I was naive enough to brought them home for an expensive price and lesson too.
I got a vid to prove that they chased me 300' into my truck after a hive check and after closing the window they were still
trying to find their way in. I thought it was a bit abnormal during that time. And thinking this is beekeeping
so can tolerate the mean bees too. I even gave warning to the farmers not to go nearby these hives that are
fenced in later on. The hives are off their farm now because I put them on top of an ant hill. After 3 months sitting
there the ants got them. Now I asked to put bees there the farmers said they got them from the Russians already.
It is not true but I just let it go. So the aggressive bees can ruin a good neighborly relationships too. And don't let
the bee color fool you. They can exist in lighter, Italians or darker, carnis color. Since grafting queens I've learned to
only keep the gentle queens. Any queen emerged that show the aggressive behaviors I will not keep them. Every year since I tried to connect with the commercial operation for their gentle type queens. They have a diverse genetic pool stocks to choose from and will not tolerate the aggressive bees working with so many hives. When words got out that they have the
aggressive bees nobody will buy their queens anymore.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

I have kept Africanized bees. Hot bees and Africanized bees are 2 different traits. Mean is Mean. I had 2 bee hives. Lets just say for the sake of understanding defensiveness reaction a bee hive scale of 1 to 10. I was dealing with a 10 on the Africanized bees and an 8 with the non. The difference is with Africanized bees predominant DNA characteristics is a few things. A hot hive is just one that reacts, maybe large numbers. You open it up, can do what you want and close it up and walk away. The Africanized hive I have had many times not even working on it, they would come out in the first vibration and then many times just attack me. Africanized bees you will not be able to close the bee hive up and walk away due to the fact that they follow you. I had to learn to take a garden hose and simulate rainfall. 
Africanized bees if you open up an established hive and mess around with them, they will come out and attack to kill nearly anything in the 100 yd radius. A Hot hive will not do that and they typically just go back inside the hive after it's closed up.
Africanized bees you can smell the pheromone like that of banana. It's no mistaking it. Once they become established as in about 10 frames built up, they're numbers grow and well you start to develop an awareness due to the reaction they have. It's not fun opening up the bee hive of Africanized bees. I have walked up a block and a half with them still following me and landing on me. I have weaved in and out of oak trees trying to get a lot of them to fly back to the bee hive. It's just WAY different then an aggressive mean hive. I can deal with an aggressive hive. Africanized bee hive is NO mistaking it. If your having to guess if they are, I am pretty certain you don't have them. The sting rate is just off the chart with Africanized bees. 
Dressing for Africanized bees. I wore Dickies overalls (Jean Material) Socks, Winter boots fully laced up, Duct tape where the bee suit and boot met. T-Shirt/long sleeve shirt that is thick, Duct tape my zipper on my neckline, full bee suit and real cow hide authentic bee gloves from Mann Lake. 1 got hit about 30 times on my ankles due to no duct tape and black socks. Not fun folks hobbling off to the house. OUCH!

Just re-queen if you think your bees are mean, weather or not you think they're Africanized or not. Mean bees are horrible insects to try and manage. Enjoy the hobby, don't suffer as I did.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks for sharing your AHB beekeeping experiences. 
Next time duct tape your boots and use a ventilated full suit on so that you
don't suffer from the stings or heat stroke in the hot summer time. It is better not to
keep them or have to deal with them. The term clinging to a Velcro is more like it!


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

After thinking about this for a while, I'm beginning to develop a theory about what we're seeing here in Southern California.

First, why are African bees so defensive? From the research I've done, it appears that bees are harvested in the wild in Africa (mostly - I know some are kept). And when they are harvested, the hive is destroyed. One data point is that Africa is the largest supplier of bees wax. Under those pressures, only the most defensive bees survive. And bees that swarm often are at a survival advantage to bees that swarm a lot less.

Here in Southern California, we know we have Africanized bees (hybrid bees of African and European descent), and have had them for at least 15 years. But beekeepers in this area are keeping feral bees without problems. The bees are more defensive than really docile European bees but not excessively hot. For example, I would not work my bees without a suit, but they are not mass attacking me when I open the hive. Other feral beekeepers report the same thing.

So my original question was "Why?".

My theory is that there are evolutionary pressures on bees in an urban setting such as Southern California. Around here, feral bees usually do not remain long in a non-managed setting. If they set up housekeeping in someone's home or on their property (remember, property is small in SoCal), the homeowner will call either a bee rescue or exterminator. If the bees are determined to be "aggressive" (really, excessively defensive) they are exterminated by both groups.

Then, some managed backyard bees are European stock so we have the continual introduction of European genes into the wild mated queens.

But feral bees that manage to maintain a wild hive for a year or so have to have some ability to deal with verroa (since no one is treating them), and that's what beekeepers who manage ex-feral bees are looking for. Not all the "rescued" bees have the ability to coexist with varroa and those don't survive the winter in a bee yard. A beekeeper friend of mine with over 100 hives reports that about 20% of new ex-feral hives do not make it through the first winter (no varroa treatment of hives, new or older).

So, the evolutionary pressure on the feral bees in my urban area is for less defensive behavior and coexistence with varroa. And that's certainly what we're seeing.

What do you think?

Mike


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

I really doubt that what the beekeeper does to a hive (harvesting, manipulating, etc.) will affect the genetics of the bee. My guess is that the AHB characteristics (controlled by genetics) are getting diluted through mating with European varieties.


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

ericweller said:


> I really doubt that what the beekeeper does to a hive (harvesting, manipulating, etc.) will affect the genetics of the bee. My guess is that the AHB characteristics (controlled by genetics) are getting diluted through mating with European varieties.


I'm not in any way suggesting that the way a beekeeper works with a hive affects the genetics. However, the way a beekeeper SELECTS which hive to keep affects the long term genetics of the bees in the area. If a beekeeper destroys extremely defensive hives, those genetics are not going to be available through drones to a new hive (for wild mated hives).

And if a beekeeper selects for less defensive hives, those genes will be available through drones to a new hive (for wild mated hives).

Over time, the feral and wild mated bees in an area will reflect those selection pressures.

Mike


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

I absolutely agree with that. Eventually, with AHB mating with the European, there will be a total blending of the two genetic lines. The only question that remains is whether the AHB defensive characteristics are more dominant than the European's gentleness. Time will tell.


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

Your note brings up the question of why European bees are so gentle. They certainly did not start out that way or they would have never survived in the wild.

My theory of why European bees are not very defensive is that beekeepers in Europe selected for gentle stock. Highly defensive hives would have been destroyed while less defensive hives would have been maintained. This would have the effect of increasing the probability of a wild mated queen mating with a drone from a less defensive hive.

Over time, the less defensive hives would predominate. Even today, we find some European hives to be more defensive than others, and many beekeepers re-queen those hives with a queen from a less defensive line.

I believe that Africanized bees are subject to the same evolutionary pressures - if we continually destroy or re-queen highly defensive Africanized hives, and if there are few places for wild, highly defensive Africanized bees to hive, we will find that hives of Africanized bees gradually become less defensive, in the say way that European bees became less defensive.

Mike


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