# SHB - Northern Extent Question



## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

I bought three packages two years ago and they had SHB in with them.I killed the ones i saw and haven't had a problem.I will say that i am done buying packages.Over wintering nucs are the way to go once you are able.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

They are in Michigan for sure.


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## Peter (Mar 28, 2009)

I just read an article on restriction of transportation of bees from Quebec into New Brunswick because of reported shb finds in some hives in southern Quebec.
As the importation of bees from the south is severly restricted that would kind of point to the beatles overwintering in QC.


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

small hive beetles will start to lay eggs when the outside temps get aournd 70 degrees. They will live around and in the winter cluster in northern states. In the south they have 3.5 life cycles of eggs, larva, adult per year. In the northern states with our cold winters we only have 1 maybe 1.5 cycles per year so they do not grow as fast up here. But they will live through the winter in the overwintered hives but not as succesfully as in the south.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

OK, so DC Bees basically says that, "I saw SHB when I got my bees, but I haven't seen them after the first year".

I haven't seen a statement from a northern beek like "I see them every year, and I don't bring in any bees from the south".


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

I see a couple every year in at least a few of my hives - and I overwinter in ND. I never see them in the spring or early summer, always in the late summer or fall. I am sure that they are dispersing to my hives from the commercial hives that come back from almonds. But, they never make it through the winter.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Peter said:


> I just read an article on restriction of transportation of bees from Quebec into New Brunswick because of reported shb finds in some hives in southern Quebec.
> As the importation of bees from the south is severly restricted that would kind of point to the beatles overwintering in QC.


Canada imports a lot of bees from other countries. Here in Nova Scotia, we have had shb scares the last two years, as shb was discovered in shipments from Hawaii. We're not really seeing them in our hives yet here.

Adam


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

This year I only bought a queen that was from the south. There were no SHB in there, and yet I had a small problem also. Thankfully I saw it quick enough and froze the frames that had larva on them and took care of the problem. I did see them every time I opened them up this past summer. We'll see when I open them up for the first time this year. I plan on doing a full inspection in the next few weeks as weather allows.


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## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

delber have you bought packages or nucs from the south before?Curious to where they came from,thanks.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I am in southern Michigan and they have been in my hives the last couple years, I think they probably came with packages I bought originally. I saw one beetle already this year in an overwintered hive, it was on the inside of the inner cover. My hives are in full sun most of the day and are strong colonies so they don't become a problem, the bees usually keep them corraled on the inner cover area. John


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

Is there a distribution map of SHB out there? We don't have them in Oregon yet, but I know they do exist in California. I just wonder how far they have made it up. I also wonder if they can live in the high dessert? We are at 4000 feet with very little rain or humidity. We don't even have ticks or fleas up here, while they have it only 1 hour away at 2000 ft elevation. What is the ideal climate for SHB?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I have never bought a package and have SHB. I am told my queens originated from Hawaii. Once you have them I think you will always have them, just my thoughts. Unless you can kill every last one in the hive (including eggs). The SHB can fly up to 5 miles away so if your neighbor within 5 miles has or had SHB you can get them too. I see the SHB in the north more of a nuisance, right now anyway, for northern beeks rather than a major threat to the hive, similar to ants.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Would you care to hear something from a commercial migratory beekeeper who sees few beetles in the hives in SC and in NY?


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Katharina said:


> ... I also wonder if they can live in the high dessert? We are at 4000 feet with very little rain or humidity... What is the ideal climate for SHB?


To answer your last question first, SHB are a scavenger insect and as such I suspect that they don't have an ideal climate, or environment. I suspect that SHB are a lot like the humble opossum, living anywhere, everywhere, and however they are able.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?236707-Northern-Expanding-Range-of-the-SHB
The above thread mentions SHBs in Michigan 8 years ago.

So this follow up link is likely inaccurate (imho) 

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...51KT8TvMsKItwf9u_XvAg&ved=0CGAQ9QEwBw&dur=944


The SHB is supposed to be able to survive and breed in a supermarket trash dumpster by eating rotten fruit. It's native range is everywhere in Africa below the Sahara desert. This includes low lying jungle, high rain forest, deserts, high savanna, brush etc. So I 'spect' SHB can make a living in your neck of the woods. I just don't think that Mr & Mrs SHB will be living the life of Riley in your neighborhood.

SHBs live like buzzards do, by waiting on the sideline for 'sumpten' to die. (or get weak)
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=buzz...bnh=131&tbnw=198&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:242

Lot of good information on bee pest here:
http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/research.html#article21


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

I have not seen any in my overwintered colonies. I have seen a few in package 1st year hives but 10 or less beetles. Last August while cleaning out a swarm trap I had one fly and land on the table I was working on.

Not sure what the natural migration of SHB is. There has to be some sort of my they spread coverage zones beyond people shipping them all over the country.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Would you care to hear something from a commercial migratory beekeeper who sees few beetles in the hives in SC and in NY?


Define few. Please.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

None. Or pretty close to none. I didn't notice any SHBs in hives in SC this last trip. I saw SHB in my hives once last Summer when they were in NY.


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## [email protected] (May 12, 2010)

Once, four years ago, I found SHB larvae in pollen substitue that I had put on the first of March. This was before any packages had come up from the South. I had found some adults in that yard the previous fall so they must have wintered. I see a few beetles (6-8 per coloney) here and there every year. I sometimes also find larvae in division board feeders in late Summer. I sell 1500 packages each year so am sure that the beetles come up with them. I also found adults in some nucs that I bought from Florida two years ago. There are a few other things of note; I regularly ask customers if they see SHB and only one other than me has seen any. This has to mean that beekeepers are not recognizing them. I can't be the only one that has ever had any. I also have found SHB in yards where I havn't installed packages or moved bees into it that season. This would indicate that the adults are flying in from other locations. Whenever I find adults, they are found on the inner cover possibly having been harassed by the bees and hanging on in the fringes. My conclusion is that a few must winter over here in CT, but the majority come up from the South in packages or nucs. I don't believe that they will be a serious problem in cold climates like CT as long as honey is not left around waiting to be extracted. A few beetles could make a mess if allowed to lay eggs in a stack of full honey supers.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Would you care to hear something from a commercial migratory beekeeper...?


Or a non-migratory one who has seen beetles in the past but none for several years....except one beetle in one yard where packages were brought in next door. they really don't winter here. They can't pupate in frozen ground, and I think the adults are too old to breed their second year.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Or that you manage your colonies so well, Michael, that SHB has no impact therefore little presence.

I have even had hives left in SC that showed no SHB presence when I saw them again in the fall.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

DC Bees said:


> delber have you bought packages or nucs from the south before?Curious to where they came from,thanks.


I haven't bought packages. I got my bees from a cut-out that I did in in a colder climate than what we have here. My beekeeping club is a different story. Most get packages yearly. I was talking with one woman who has been beekeeping almost longer than I've been alive and she simply "buys another package" to replace deadouts. Instead of doing splits or whatever. It's just easier in her mind. I hope to help people get off of the package bandwagon, but it'll take a few years for sure. Where I had the hives this year there is another beekeeper that I have no idea who he is but he set up hives there this year. I have no idea where he got them from.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It will be interesting to see if the SHB thrives this year up north because of the mild winter.


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## khaas15 (Feb 17, 2010)

I have never seen a SHB until last year. That's when I bought my second hive, which came from California polinating almonds. After I got this hive set up I started noticing a few SHB every now and then, but nothing to worry about. I probably counted less than 15 last season. But I do share Acebirds concerns, with the mild winter who knows with they will look like this year.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It was pointed out in another Post that in the North SHB's reproductive cycles are fewer than in the South. So, no matter whether SHB survive a mild Northern Winter or not won't have much actual effect, imo. I'm not going to worry much about it. To me, in my experience, SHB are a minor pest, no worse than any of the other insects cohabitating w/ bees in their hives.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I have also never seen any in VT except in packages the first season. I have on several occasions been told by newer beeks that they had SHBs and when I investigated farther it was an instance of mis-identification. June Bugs, ****roaches, Japanese Beatles etc. People don't seem to realize that "S" stands for small... 

I saw them all the time in KY and NC, but they don't do well in the North. Hard rich loam and bedrock is not conducive to their reproduction... they need soft sandy soil.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dermested beetles are often mistaken for SHB.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Acebird said:


> The SHB can fly up to 5 miles away so if your neighbor within 5 miles has or had SHB you can get them too.


My expert tells me that they have been known to fly as far as 30 miles. Oh yes I have a few SHB in central Ky, which have created a problem in some weak hives. I've haven't bought transported packages for 3 years so I didn't get them from packages. My neighbors as of last encounter does not have them so they had to come from further than 5 miles away, which is an opinion, but a fairly substantiated one. They can sense bee pheromones from many miles away.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

30 miles? 5 miles? How did anyone determine that? Seems like the beetles would be too small to install tracking devices on them. It would be interesting to know how the distance they travel was determined.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

valleyman said:


> Oh yes I have a few SHB in central Ky, which have created a problem in some weak hives. I've haven't bought transported packages for 3 years so I didn't get them from packages. My neighbors as of last encounter does not have them so they had to come from further than 5 miles away, which is an opinion, but a fairly substantiated one. They can sense bee pheromones from many miles away.


How close are you to I-65? It is one of the main north south corridors and there are 100s of loads of bees that travel that road every year...

All scientific research I have seen says 7-10 KMs which is less than 6 miles... Most sources say "great distances".


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I have read several papers on SHB and have never seen any mention of distance they will fly. Can we get a link to an article or study that gives us this information?


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

"adult SHBs are strong flyers and are capable of glying several kilometers which aids in their natural spread. Bettles fly before or after dusk andmales have been reported to fly eairlier than females"

This is from Clemson University "Handbook of the SHB IPM"

I have always "heard" they can fly 30 miles but you know about what we "heard" or what "they" said


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Barry said:


> I have read several papers on SHB and have never seen any mention of distance they will fly. Can we get a link to an article or study that gives us this information?


http://www.fcla.edu/FlaEnt/fe92p165.pdf


It is hard to pull research off of the internet, If you have a near by library and access to infotrack I can give you plenty of research articles to look up.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Just because I am me, are the typos yours or Mr. Hoods? "glying"? Gliding? 

Several kilometers would not translate into 30 miles or even 5 miles, would it? I wonder why Clemson would use kilometers and not miles?

Seems like looking in hives would be a better method of detecting SHBs than setting out baited traps. Less expensive too.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

Well, it seems like they probably overwinter in zone 6 and above (Southern MI is zone 6). Most people from zones 5 and below seem to see them with the arrival of new packages, but not after a winter. This is from the comments on this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> they need soft sandy soil.


When Park Outdoor built the automated bill board on our property they raised the grade up 5 ft to get the sign higher. It was all sandy soil which is right next to the bee hives. Maybe that is where the beetles came from.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The first ones I saw were in a hive near Corfu, NY, not far from Buffalo. This was in November, but the beekeeper was convinced that the beetles would live in or above the cluster through the winter. I have seen beetles clustered on top of top bars, under canvas inner covers, when snow was on the ground here in NY and when the bees were in cluster. The beetles were quite alive. One flew up and away. Not a good survival possibility there.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> I wonder why Clemson would use kilometers and not miles?


,,

Because they probably pulled that info from another source and have to keep it in the context of the original research. But even if it is their own research they probably would have measured in kms. Just like drugs are measured in grams, milligrams, kilograms, milliliters etc. and not in lbs, ounces, teaspoons. The US military also measures distance in km and not miles.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

bluegrass said:


> http://www.fcla.edu/FlaEnt/fe92p165.pdf


This article's farthest measurement is one tenth of a mile. Did I miss something?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Barry said:


> This article's farthest measurement is one tenth of a mile. Did I miss something?


Nope. Their traps were not effective at a distance of more than 160 meters from the hives. Though they were more interested in Shaded vs full Sun light. The evidence from this study does suggest that they really don't fly all that far and prefer to only go short distances as is indicated by the drop in numbers caught the farther they got from the hives.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

In areas of the globe where the climate goes from wet to dry I suspect they will fly longer distances. If you move the hives out they will probably fly farther to search for another suitable area.

Actually the Clemson report mentioned that migratory beekeepers have less of a problem because they are always moving the hives.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

bluegrass,
I am within 3/4 of a mile to I-65 as the crow flys. I had not really put 2 and 2 together on that, but you are exactly right. I would be in a high probability area for fall off.

On another note, I started checking some hives yesterday. I had a weak looking hive so I went into it and there were not many bees. Maybe a pint jar full. The problem was there is no queen. She didn't make it thru the winter. But there were a few SHB scurring around. We have had a mild winter here and they wintered well. I had a super on this hive so I will take the 2-3 frames of honey off today and freeze before it gets slimed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Has anyone determined the exposure to pests and diseases from moving semi loads of bees? It's hard for me to imagine them as a source of much infestation if any. But, my imagination can be limited.

Like AFB, if you have SHB, most likely you bought them unknowingly. Otherwise, they came in from the environment, somehow from somewhere. SHB do live on more than beehives.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

valleyman said:


> bluegrass,
> I am within 3/4 of a mile to I-65 as the crow flys. I had not really put 2 and 2 together on that, but you are exactly right. I would be in a high probability area for fall off.


I would say that is your primary source. The beetles can fit through the nets. When I had bees in KY I had a yard close to I-75 at Clay's Ferry and it always had my highest number of SHB. The other source for KY is the high density of feral colonies in the state... I could have made a full time living doing removals down there... I still get calls all summer long and we moved back north over 16 months ago.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Has anyone determined the exposure to pests and diseases from moving semi loads of bees? It's hard for me to imagine them as a source of much infestation if any. But, my imagination can be limited.
> 
> Like AFB, if you have SHB, most likely you bought them unknowingly. Otherwise, they came in from the environment, somehow from somewhere. SHB do live on more than beehives.


I don't think AFB is anything like SHB. I believe that AFB is more likely spread by migratory beekeepers because of the stress they put on their colonies and the fact that the colonies are going from place to place.

From what I have read moving the hive will break the breeding cycle for SHB but moving large numbers of hives to the same place will benefit the SHB especially if it doesn't have winter kill unless you are doing something to control their numbers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I don't think AFB is anything like SHB. I believe that AFB is more likely spread by migratory beekeepers because of the stress they put on their colonies and the fact that the colonies are going from place to place.


My professional experience as an Apiary Inspector and as a Commercial Beekeeper tells me this isn't so.

IMO, the ways the pest SHB is similar to the disease AFB is in the most likely way they are transfered from one beekeeper to another. By buying it. Taking into accouint that SHBs actively seek out colonies to infest, whereas bees do go to where AFB is and bring it homes too.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> My professional experience as an Apiary Inspector and as a Commercial Beekeeper tells me this isn't so.


I don't see how inspecting for a disease will tell you where it originated from. I do see how eliminating stress makes for healthier animals in general. If what you say is true AFB would be on a very steep rise.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I don't see how inspecting for a disease will tell you where it originated from.


Forgive me, but I think inspecting makes him much more knowledgeable than does blogging and reading, and with one hive to draw experience from. Oh I'm sorry you had two at one time didn't you? What happened to it?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I don't see how inspecting for a disease will tell you where it originated from. I do see how eliminating stress makes for healthier animals in general. If what you say is true AFB would be on a very steep rise.


My schooling, training and experience have familiarized me with how AFB gets around. Look it up. Look up AFB and how it is transmitted. I would suggest a book title "Pests, Predators and Diseases of HoneyBees". I'm sure there are other sources of information on the transmition of AFB Disease, do a search.

I don't expect you to take my word for it, but, transporting honeybees great distances does not stress them into AFB. Call the NYS State Apiculturalist Paul Cappy at 518-457-2087 and ask him. Ask him how many cases of AFB are found in colonies when they get to other states and when they get back to NY.

You might also ask your mentor what his opiniuon is on the subject.

I don't see how you can conclude anything about the rise or fall of AFB occurance from what I wrote. That is your own imagination, not something I implied.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I don't see why we need to turn this into a mud slinging contest? 

Moving a hive isn't going to break the brood cycle of SHB, They will just pupate in a different location from where they started. As long as they can crawl out of the hive and land in suitable soil the will reproduce.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I had no intention of slinging mud. I just voiced my opinion.
Bluegrass I read it on a webpage somewhere. They gave a reason but I don't remember the details.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Going back to the original question, I'm seeing SHB in numbers for the first time this year. May have to do with the extremely mild winter/spring. I've seen them before but they didn't overwinter. This year is different. Hope it isn't a pattern.


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

Overwintered 3 hives in Ada Ohio. 2 of the 3 are not doing well. Each hive has small hive beetles. I even saw small hive beetle larvae in one of the weaker hives (killed what I could find). My strongest hive had most of the beetles corralled in the corners of the bottom board.

My single hive in Arlington Ohio did not show any signs of small hive beetles.


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## Ricky Bee (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm in Northeast Ohio, zone 5b. Last year I installed 2 packages from Georgia in April/May. I didn't see any SHB until July. This implies that no beetles were introduced into my hive from the packages. In July I started seeing them on the inner and outer covers, and on the top bars and rabbets. I would typically see no more than 10 beetles during a typical inspection, and I never saw any larvae, so I don't think it was a serious infestation. I used the CD jewel case/roach killer traps on top of the inner cover, which seemed to eradicate them within 3 weeks or so. I have not seen a single beetle since August. If I see them again this summer, I will assume that they migrated from feral or domesticated hives in the area.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

camero7 said:


> I've seen them before but they didn't overwinter. This year is different. Hope it isn't a pattern.


They can overwinter just like mites can.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

camero7 said:


> Going back to the original question, I'm seeing SHB in numbers for the first time this year.


Hell, you live too close to me for this to be happening! 

I thought SHB also required somewhat sandy soil, not the clay loam we have here. Can anyone else verify that?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

My hives with SHB are on heavy clay soil. go figure.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

camero7 said:


> My hives with SHB are on heavy clay soil. go figure.


So, are you seeing SHB overwintered in your colonies? Wow, that's spooky.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Yes, this year for the first time. Maybe it was just the mild winter. I'm hoping that's the case. Not overwhelming numbers but seeing them on the pollen patties in the hives.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well last year was a long snowy winter and they made it just fine. I don't think the beetles multiply like they do in the south but they aren't having any problem making it through the winter with the hive just like the mites.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"What is the ideal climate for SHB?"
we have plenty here - warm/hot, humid. If bees are hanging out ( due to the heat) the SHB has a great time attacking.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Here in North America, Canada would be the farthest north Small hive beetles range from what I know:
_"The small hive beetle has been a problem in southern Ontario, but has also been found in Manitoba, Alberta and Quebec. "_


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/small-hive-beetle-honey-bees-1.4167638



They may need a long hot summer to do well. Our small hive beetles don't start getting numerous until it gets hot in summer here in North Carolina.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

HaplozygousNut said:


> Here in North America, Canada would be the farthest north Small hive beetles range from what I know:
> _"The small hive beetle has been a problem in southern Ontario, but has also been found in Manitoba, Alberta and Quebec. "_
> 
> 
> ...


This is a 8 year old thread.

Off topic : How did you come to the conclusions below as stated on your website ncWinterHoney.weebly.com ?

"Our locally adapted mutts appear to have blood of Punic and Saharan bees of the Maghreb region of Northwest Africa, and German black bees of the Italian strain (The famous "Ligurian bee" was likely a hybrid of Italian and German black bees.). I have not gotten any genetic testing, though I have a good eye for insect identification."


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> This is a 8 year old thread.
> 
> Off topic : How did you come to the conclusions below as stated on your website ncWinterHoney.weebly.com ?
> 
> "Our locally adapted mutts appear to have blood of Punic and Saharan bees of the Maghreb region of Northwest Africa, and German black bees of the Italian strain (The famous "Ligurian bee" was likely a hybrid of Italian and German black bees.). I have not gotten any genetic testing, though I have a good eye for insect identification."


Yes, this is an old thread about the range of Small hive beetles! I happened to run across this thread while searching about Saharan bees here on this forum. I read about Small hive beetles recently invading southern Ontario from a bee journal. I thought it was cool that the beetle from Africa survive in the colder climate of Canada.

About the Ligurian bees being a hybrid between German black bees and Italian bees:
I remember reading about the famous Ligurian bees being a mixture of dark and light bees, which suggests hybrid because A. m. ligustica is always light colored from what I understand. And in this article there is a photo of German Black bees from Liguria:


http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org/pdfarticles/vol71-2018-257-271fontana.pdf


Compare that photo of the Ligurian German Black bees to a couple of our colonies here in NC (I thought they look incredibly similar, do they not? Wide Abdomen characteristic of German Black bees, darker thoracic hairs, thinner bands of hair, wide looking wings.):









Here on this thread there are some more photos and videos of our bees:








German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis...


German black bees may actually be the common M lineage bee here in North Carolina, rather than what I thought it being Spanish black that were dominant of the M lineage here in North Carolina. Here is a colony that I suspect has a fair percentage of German black...




www.beesource.com


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Yes, I am also curious about how you reached those conclusions. GregV may need to be called in for analysis.

Crazy Roland


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Roland said:


> Yes, I am also curious about how you reached those conclusions. GregV may need to be called in for analysis.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Yes, I have just recently asked GregV to help analyze my bees to see what mixture they are. I will send him wings or dead bees through the mail.

-Nathaniel Long


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