# BWrangler's Leaving Tbhs Behind



## HAB (May 17, 2008)

Another one bites the dust.
Yeah, moving some of those big TBHs can be a buggar. My first Long Hive taught me that real quick. The TBH I'm working on now will be a lot lighter and have no permanently attached legs. 
But you will still continue Beeking. And in Wyoming, that's a Great place to do anything. I envy you.:applause::applause::applause:


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## Hooday (Feb 25, 2009)

Will you use foundationless frames, to at least get the natural cell advantages?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hooday said:


> Will you use foundationless frames, to at least get the natural cell advantages?


Natural cell advantage? Is that the same as small cell? Do bees who draw their own comb w/out foundation naturally draw small cells? I wonder because i have heard of regressing by generations or season from "normal" cell size to small cell cell size.


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## Aram (May 9, 2006)

*BWrangler returning to Tbhs...*

Exciting, revolutionary new model makes moving a piece of cake!!!
My $20 it's going to be next spring. 
Winters in Wyoming are long, plenty of time to come up with a solution. 
Good luck with the move,
Aram


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Natural cell advantage? Is that the same as small cell?

Sort of. Natural cell will be smaller than large cell and more variety than small cell.

> Do bees who draw their own comb w/out foundation naturally draw small cells?

Yes.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

> I wonder because i have heard of regressing by generations or season from "normal" cell size to small cell cell size.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#whatisregression


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

Sad to hear. I'm just about to embark on this journey and will be making an improved next best ever top bar long hybrid hive :shhhh:. I want to make a long tbh (so I get natural cell), supered with top bars for comb honey and another super with large cell for extracted.

Do you envision any problems with this? I'm going to use gapped top bars to allow the bees to move up. Will the bees not want to draw comb on the top bars with preference for the foundation (I'm planning to use plastic (Pierco) foundation)? Is there a problem moving them with tb's, like is the comb going to break off?

Now your problem. Why not just lang sized boxes with tb's in them? Medium depth tbh's? Side by side deeps with communicating holes that can be closed off to move them?


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Thought about Warre hives? Similar footprint to Langs, modular, etc. 

Matt


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the comments.

I will use a natural comb approach on my Lang hives, and space the frames at 1 1/4 inches.

And if I can find a cheap trailer or eventually get a full size truck, my next top bar hive will be a two box combo hive, that can be run as a top bar hive or used with frames. For my needs, it would be the ultimate hive, except for moving. Check out:

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/combo-long-hive/

I've got a vertical tbh design based on the Warre' concept. It's a little taller and deeper. And the cover deviates from the Warre' concept. But it would be managed about the same. Check out:

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/vertical-tbh/

This hive lacks compatibility with conventional equipment. And I seem to find myself with a perpetual equipment mix. I'd like to go one way or the other. But find myself too cheap and too poor to dispose of it.

The ultimate solution is to find a permanent location not requiring moving hives. But then, I'd probably have to move myself again. And this moving myself and bees is a real hassle.

Regards
BWrangler


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Space the frames at 1 1/4 inches, apart? Doing that will result in alot of burr and/or bridge comb being built. Why would you do that?

If you want to encourage the building of "natural cell comb" why don't you just put empty frames in between drawn frames? Putting two empty frames in between three drawn combs in a 5 frame nuc box and then installing a split w/ a queen cell or a virgin queen will get you drawn frames of worker comb. Think about it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Space the frames at 1 1/4 inches, apart? Doing that will result in alot of burr and/or bridge comb being built. Why would you do that?

Not really.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#framespacing


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## Stevedore (Jan 22, 2009)

*Kenyan Insert*

I recently designed this Kenyan insert to fit inside a Lang deep:

http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2461

I've built four of them so far and am happy with the results.
Will find out soon if the bees agree.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

>space the frames at 1 1/4 inches.

Maybe I should have said, "reduce the frame width from 1 3/8" to 1 1/4" and run 11 frames per brood chamber."

Regards
BWrangler


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## abeeco (Dec 6, 2008)

bwrangler- looked at the ultimate tbh on your web site... quick question- how do you glue in plastic foundation starter strips to wood top bars?

thank you!


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Abeeco,

My starter strips are only a couple of cells tall. I use melted beeswax to fasten them in. And give the strips a beeswax coating at the same time.

If my starter strips were taller, where bees could cluster and hang from them before drawing comb, I would use a couple of 3/4" frame brads in addition to the beeswax.

Regards
BWrangler


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

Nope. Just can't do it. I'm going to restart and keep a couple of top bar hives. After nearly a decade of small cell testing, my Lang hives are on there last legs with rotten corners, dry rot, etc. It's either buy more replacement Lang stuff or move toward tbhs.

The cost of new Lang stuff plus shipping is out of sight. The economics are much more skewed toward building a tbh than when I first wrote my tbh pages eight years ago.

So, tbhs it is. I'll probably go with my next top bar hive which is a natural comb hive that can function as either a standard long hive or a tbh.

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/combo-long-hive/ 

Moving is a real pain. But I'm just going to have to work that out. I'll run fewer hives. Only what I can carry in my toy truck without stacking. And maybe even come up with a better way to move them. I've got a few ideas about it.


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## Aram (May 9, 2006)

:applause:
Oooops, did I just lose $20? :scratch:
Well worth it, I'm sure. I said it before, I probably wouldn't be keeping bees if I hadn't stumbled on your site. Lots of help and inspiration there, glad to see it go on.
Good luck with the move,
Keep us posted,
Aram


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

*portable top bar hive*



BWrangler said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> One tbh disadvantage has me switching back to Langs from tbhs. And it's something you should consider before choosing a tbh. Will you need to move your tbh? And do you have access to the equipment to do so?


Just for you, BWrangler!

http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2831


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Buckbee,

Is that hive of yours a neat hive or what! Where else can one find such innovative beekeepers but with the top bar hive crowd! 

No wonder I can't leave tbhs and their keepers behind.

Thanks guys.

Regards
BWrangler


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

BWrangler said:


> Hi Buckbee,
> 
> Is that hive of yours a neat hive or what! Where else can one find such innovative beekeepers but with the top bar hive crowd!
> 
> ...


I think he meant "*can't* leave tbhs and their keepers behind."!

Matt


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Cacklewack said:


> I think he meant "*can't* leave tbhs and their keepers behind."!


That's what I was hoping!


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

Thanks. I can't leave tbhs and their keepers behind. And I can't spell or type either :>)))

I've changed the orginal.

Regards
BWrangler


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## nwgabeeman (Apr 18, 2009)

BWrangler,
Sorry to hear that you are switching back to Langstroth equipment.
If you had tbh hives on a trailer could you simply move the trailer with hives in place and have a portable bee yard? 

Regarding your "Next Hive". 
I am building a new hive based on your design but I plan to leave it stationary. I see by the measurements that it can be used interchangeably with Lang frames and can be supered with either 2, 10 frame supers or 4, 5 frame nuc supers. My concern is my back in later years.

nwgabeeman


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