# DEATH TO GRINNERS



## Andy (Jun 12, 2003)

I had the day off today to go to the dentist. When I got home I decided to check on my bees before the painkiller wore off.I was in a pretty foul mood when I spotted a possum near my hives. My cur puppy spotted him just as he was climbing a tree. We held trial at the base of the tree and Mr.Grinner was found guilty of being a no good varmint, and sentenced to a shooting/mauling death. Upon closer inspection he had just come from the hives where he had spent the past couple of days molesting them. Entrace reducers thrown off, comb torn out, mud all over everything and my weakest hive was reduced to just a few angry survivors. Dead bees laying everywhere. I'll never swerve for a possum thats for sure.


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## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

I knew that skunks would bother hives, but I didn't know that opossums would. Thanks for the info. We have a creek on our place, so lots of trees and lots of critters, including 'possums, but I've never seen one venture near the hives. Do cats like to chase or hunt them?


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Been there done that!
That is why I keep a trap set in the bee yard all the time, I have sent several varmets to wherever in the last year!


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## Andy (Jun 12, 2003)

Dragonfly, I don't think your average cat is going to take on an opossum. Most possums can claim the catbowl for their own. Having cats is the reason I dont set all of my varmint traps that are not in use all around my hives. A couple of cats really keep down on mice though, I never was a cat person, till I got married, but seeing is believing!


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

I hate cats indoors. Barn cats are what I want around. The type that come when you call them for food but run from you if you try to catch them are best because you will not be tripping over them while you work.


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## denise_ky (Aug 29, 2002)

I had a possum problem and actually, think I still do. I caught the critter sitting at the entrance snapping at the bees coming out.
Denise


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

I think that in Peru, or some other south american country, deep fried cat is considered a delicacy. The head is especially prized.

As for me, I have a soft spot in my heart for both cats, and possums. The possums don't know that those hives belong to us. All they see is an easy free meal that someone just left lying there. The next thing they know they are being arrested, tried, and convicted of murder. 

On the ecological side, while possums may be detrimental to bee hives, they are very beneficial otherwise, as they eat other, much more harmful varmints.

Then again, I've yet to start any hives, so haven't experienced the anger of having one get destroyed by a possum.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Tears. Thats what I have when reading about you animal murderers. Thinking your demi-gods controlling all that is before you. My tears are nothing compared to your shame. When you die, and you will, hopefully soon, all that you killed during your lifetime will be placed on one side of a gymnasium. Every ant, fly, skunk, deer, bird, etc. Perhaps a few humans as well? Then it will be you, buck naked, and you will have to do battle to make it to the exit. You against thousands. I hope you suffer long and hard. If reincarnated, you will be maggots. Thats what your all worth. Beekeepers not, slavemasters of the weak. Rapists of the earth.

I'm thinking of joining (infiltrating) PETA, (king of a "for kicks" type of thing) what do you think? Do I have a shot. Or should I wrench up the language a bit?


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Bjorno;
You are doing pretty good. Can you work babies in there? If so you stand a good chance of getting right in.
Ox


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Ok, Ok. How about a dead bush baby?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

No, that might cause sypathy for Bush, you have to say something bad about Bush.


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

Now lets get back on topic, chaps. I'm not actually sure what PETA is, but speculations about animal revenge in the next life are definitely OT.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I really don't see how dead bush babies from the outback, can make a difference. Oh wait, I get it, your talking about another bush. Ok, let me think...... Sympathy bush??????? I heard it called different things, but my wife may think it odd if I thought bush needed some sympathy........Holy cow again....Brain fart here...I get it. Bush, politically speaking. Well, there are those Michael Moore types out there that say we are killing thousands of children with those there dirty bombs. But I really dont think PETA gives a hoot about babies. They themselves said if they had a chance between saving a human, or an animal, they would choose the animal. But I'll ask them when I infiltrate to the higher levels of this organization. Wish me luck.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Actually PETA DOES care very much about babies just as long as they aren't HUMAN babies. Baby seals, baby woves, baby cows, these are the kinds of things they like to sensationalize.

They also care very much about attacking any "conservative" or "republican" because they believe them to be anti environment. So it's important that you bad mouth President Bush and that you make a big deal out of the poor animals and especially baby animals.


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## Andy (Jun 12, 2003)

I don't know about you fellers, but I didn't work this hard to get to the top of the food chain to eat veggies. Veggies are what food eats. Don't tell my wife I said that.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

I understant animal have purpose that many of us over look when they come against us. When spotlighting rabbits out of our nursery I saw many deer and other critters. We mainly grew bushes and not many trees. Deer do alot of damage to trees during the rut by rubbing on the trees but what nibbling they do to the bushes causes little harm. The rabbits though will eat a small bush to the ground. The only possums that I have killed were into my chickens. We had skunks in the green houses. The potted plants sitting on a mat of sawdust caused an explosion of earthworms once it had aged some( new sawdust keeps weeds out). I was lucky and never got sprayed. But our **** hounds got sprayed regularly. I have a critter problem at my hives. So far no damage has been done but my entrance reducer keeps getting pulled out. I layed some carpet tack strips around but it happened again. So now I will take stronger actions. I have to be careful because of my mothers cats. I got to get me another live trap as I have to keep one around the chickens.


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## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

I love cats for keeping the mice down, but we have one old cat who has a taste for rabbits, and I don't really like that because I would like more rabbits to eat for myself. They make a terrific gumbo. Anyway, back to possums, I didn't realize they were a problem with hives. Our possums must find better stuff along the creek, because I've never seen any sign that they are in the beeyard. I just thought maybe cats were a deterrent. 

Bjorn, after you have infiltrated the higher ranks of Peta, I would like to know, just for grins, how many of them are taking psychotropic drugs. It must be really stressful maintaining such a highly emotional state of mind.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Apparently my "poor varmints" post rubbed some the wrong way. Let me clarify.

I'm not saying you shouldn't kill them if they get into your bee hives, chicken coops, etc. I'm saying, however, that I do feel bad for any animal that runs afoul (no pun intended) of our human constructs.

The same way I feel bad for the deer that's standing in the middle of the road and gets hit by a car. Protecting ones livelyhood is important. For myself, having empathy for animals that don't know any better is as well. A balanced approach is what I advocate, that's all I am saying. 

Kai


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I gotta say, I'm about ready to quit these boards! Things are getting really nasty and I don't like it. Between this subject and the Master Beekeepers subject under the forum, I've gotta say I'm amazed. The beekeepers I know and have met would never go at each other like you guys are doing over a difference of opinion. It's all live and let live. I'm glad Mr. Brenchley as moderator stepped in to attempt to bring this issue down to a dull roar, but for Michael Bush, a Moderator himself on another subject, to add fuel to the fire--and to throw in politics to boot--something's wrong here. I thought we were here to help each other. I don't think there's any need to criticize.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

Those of us that have problems with PETA understand his joke. My wife signs up for alot of free stuff on the net. Both of my daughters get the Peta mag every month. Those idots set out to try and ruin a fishing turnament by jamming the boat ramp with their boats and slapping the water with bamboo poles. One of the big things in this month's issue was how bad fish get hurt by hooks and nets. An other artcle is about donkey basketball games. They made a point that the animals can not stand on the slick floor. When I was in high school the FFA promoted one. They have rubber shoes and get great traction on the floor. The donkeys are not scared into bucking they are trained to buck. The one I was on(tried to stay on anyway and I broke horses) was one of several that was used for letting children ride and pet during the intermissons. The gent that brought them had key phrases that he would yell if they quit bucking or to make them drop their head and stop suddenly. I had a blast and from what I know of horses the animals were well taken care of and seemed very happy. I am sure some outfits use unbroke donkeys but that would be dangerous to the people because donkeys love to kick. I am against animal abuse and I do not kill animals without a cause( I eat or give away most type animals but not possums and skunks). 

I have peta's phone number and address if anyone wants them. PETAKids.com is one of their sites.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Tia, Please accept my apoligy. And I'm sure no one else meant harm. Actually, I'm not sure anyone is going after anyone. Seems like not everyone is on the same page, but I see no one being nasty. Did I start with a jab at PETA, sure. As has been done several times before on this forum.

Rest assure, I hope there is certainly a place in heaven for those compassionate enough to care for animals. I being a hunter on one hand, also despise anyone who takes pleasure in treating any animals with cruelty. It is the lowest form of ignorance. I jabbed PETA for the sole reason that they hate beekeepers. Something discussed on the forum before. Others have added there input, true. But I see no harm. Maybe I'm wrong though.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Things are getting really nasty and I don't like it.

I really think the people posting on this are not trying to be mean. They are intending to be silly.

>but for Michael Bush, a Moderator himself on another subject, to add fuel to the fire--and to throw in politics to boot--something's wrong here.

I am sorry if anything I said offended you or anyone else. I guess I don't see a fire. I have nothing against President Bush and did not intend to reflect any disrespect on him. He is the President of the US and deserves the respect due that position even when he does things I don't approve of. I do find PETA to be pretty irritating mostly becasue of their total intolerance for anyone else's beliefs. As far as polictics it is the "PETA" position on everything to be against anyone who isn't a left wing Liberal and that was what I was poking fun at. Personally I don't consider myself a Liberal or a Conservative in the current usage of the word. I find all politicians and politics to be pretty ludicrous.

I think for those of us who have defended our livestock from predators all of our lives, it seems pretty irresponsible to let the predators harm our charges.

I don't feel guilty about the skunk and possum I shot that had been eating my chickens, eggs and bees. I do feel guilty about the bees getting eaten and the 20 some chickens that died because I didn't have the energy to sit up all night and wait for the predators.


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Goodness Gracious--

Please accept my apologies for encouraging the joke. 

Actually, I have my few hives on stands off the ground, about l8 inches. Still, on summer mornings I find little holes dug all around in front of the hives where skunk/s have been digging. All sorts of varminst, here--I lost a guinea two nights ago, probably a ****, but nothing bothers my bees on the stands. I kill varmints only in defense of my stock--chickens, geese, guineas, rabbits, cattle. In recent months I've had to dispose of dogs, *****, possum, skunk, two bobcats and x housecats. The state cleaned up the coyotes in the area last spring, so they are not the problem they were--eating geese out of my back yard.

I find that the metal stands also discourage mice--on the ground I've had mouse damage to winter combs. Never had that on stands even though I sometimes neglect to reduce entrances as I should. 

Of course, only a small timer could manage metal stands-- I think they would be totally impractical for a serious beekeeper. 

I made mine by making a truss of long 2" angle iron and rebar, then supporting two of them on metal saw horses. I've tried "C" purlin, but it flexes too much under weight. 
Ox


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

For those of you who would like to know PETA's stand on beekeeping a search on their site returned the following:
http://www.peta.org/mc/facts/fsveg11.html (search for Honey) http://www.peta2.com/stuff/s-eat.html (search for Honey) http://www.caringconsumer.org/ingredientsfactsheet.html (search for Bee Products) http://www.askcarla.com/ac/tempfaq/FAQ.asp?CategoryID=5&Category=Veg (click on "What's wrong with eating honey?")

I will quote the last one for a synopsis of their feelings on the subject:

"Unfortunately, like factory farmers, many beekeepers take inhumane steps to ensure personal safety and reach production quotas. Its not unusual for larger honey producers to cut off the queen bees wings so that she cant leave the colony or to have her artificially inseminated on a bee-sized version of the factory farm "rape rack." When the keeper wants to move a queen to a new colony, she is carried with "bodyguard" bees, all of whomif they survive transportwill be killed by bees in the new colony. Large commercial operations may also take all the honey instead of leaving the 60 pounds or so that bees need to get through the winter. They replace the rich honey with a cheap sugar substitute that is not as fortifying. In colder areas, if the keepers consider it too costly to keep the bees alive through the winter, they destroy the hives by pouring gasoline on them and setting them on fire. Also, bees are often killed or have their wings and legs torn off by haphazard handling. According to the Cook-DuPage Beekeepers Association, humans have been using honey since about 15,000 B.C., but it wasnt until the 20th century that people turned bees into factory-farmed animals."

All of you who doused a hive with gasoline and burned it with all the bees, to keep from feeding it all winter, please raise your hand to be counted.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

This is more sensitive issue that many that are not in peta support. Horses class under beast of burden if and only if they have been trained to pull carts/buggies or plow. Riding horses are classed as pets. I was turned in for shooting a mare for a fellow walking horses breeder who rented a trailer to haul some horse and the mare fell through the floor while he was going down the interstate. Most of her front feet were gone from dragging on the pavement. We called a vet(he knew the law) to put her down. We could not reach any of the 4 in our town. We took her out of the trailer and shot her one time between the eyes. I found out the renter of the house next to the barn I was renting was an animal lover that called the law. The officer that came out saw where we buried her. I knew the guy and he ask did I do the deed and I told him I did and told him what happened. He has cattle so all he asked was to see the trailer. The mare that was killed had a 2 month old colt that I had to milk goats to feed. I saw this as a mercy killing.

What is the difference in me shooting the animal and the vet giving a leathal injection? 

Why is it now illegal for me to put an animal down that has no chance of survival?


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## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

For God's sake, as far as I know, we are all adults here, and this particular thread is in jest. We are not here solely to help each other, but to have discussions about various problems and observations we have made. If I want my hand held, I will seek out my parents, my husband, my son, or someone else who is dear to my heart. If I want to discuss beekeeping or ask a question that can give me some insight, I come here, but I don't need everyone to pat me on the back or tell me everything is going to be okay.
Humans, as a general rule, are much kinder to animals than animals are to each other. Most beekeepers I have ever met are not cruel to animals and are, in fact, pretty in tune with nature. 
[This message has been edited by dragonfly (edited February 16, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by dragonfly (edited February 16, 2004).]


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## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

Oxankle, I forgot to mention that I built my hive stand of metal also. I only keep four hives, so it didn't have to be very big. I used 4" receiving channel down the length of the stand, and 4" purlin for the cross members. The purlin pieces are screwed to 4" square tubing to make a "T" post that is sunk into concrete filled holes in the ground. Of course, I can't move it, but I just made sure it was where I wanted the bee yard to be located permanently. I've not had any mice problems at all, and I paint the posts with vaseline or Tanglefoot to keep fireants out. My stand has turned out to be a great solution for getting the hives up off the ground a little, and with screened bottom boards, helps tremendously with Summer ventilation.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

The peta description of beekeepers is hilarious.I would like to see their description of sex,haha.
Hillbilly,you know you did the merciful thing no matter what the law says.I have had to do similar things on occasion.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

I think what Tia was reacting to was a perceived sarcastic attack against me based on my expression of empathy for opossums and cats in my original post. I think what she saw in the posts was an implied tagging of me as someone who might support PETA based on that expressed empathy. 

Personally, I think PETA stands on one extreme end of a spectrum of opinions on this topic. I do not support them, nor do I support the extreme positions on the opposite end of the spectrum. 

Now if you will all please excuse me, I have to go outside and peel my wife off the tree she has been hugging. She swears she heard it scream when a leaf fell down the other day... 

Kai


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

LOL, Dragonfly:

I have lived long enough to know that what I want permanently located today may be "in the way" next week. 
Ox


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Michael,
I won't name anyone because that would be wrong, BUT I do know people who gas their hives with cyanide to exterminate their livestock annually for those reasons. Cost. Not the same as burning the hives, but as far as extermination goes, its the same thing.

I know of two of them that are active members of these very boards. I personally think it an aweful practice, but it is a fairly common practice non-the-less.

------------------
Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me
"Do or not do, there is no try" ~ Master Yoda
BeeSourceFAQ: http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Hey MB: THANKS for posting the PETA links - I think these people are hilarious! (the more so since they take themselves so seriously).

Everyone: It's hard for me to believe, but if there really are any beekeepers out there who poison/detroy their hives for anything other than sickness, PLEASE contact me first. I'll pay shipping cost to ship the bees in packages to me.



------------------
Triangle Bees


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I won't name anyone because that would be wrong, BUT I do know people who gas their hives with cyanide to exterminate their livestock annually for those reasons. Cost. Not the same as burning the hives, but as far as extermination goes, its the same thing.

I have heard of such a thing and had a friend who once had an autumn job killing bees. He hated it and never did it again. Says he's still pulling stingers out and that was almost 30 years ago. I have never met anyone who does it and frankly can't figure how you could make it pay with what it costs for packages and shipping.

>I know of two of them that are active members of these very boards. I personally think it an aweful practice, but it is a fairly common practice non-the-less.

It's common enough that we have heard of it. It is certainly not the norm from my experience.

But back to the misinformation of PETA, no one soaks their hives in gasoline and burns them so they won't have to feed them.

Some have been required to do this to control diseases... but that is another matter entirely.

Other references I've read from them talk about how we murder the queen every year or two. As if the bees wouldn't do it for us. Or how the drones are killed in order to artificially inseminate the queens (as if they wouldn't have died doing it anyway) and how "most" of our queens are artificially inseminated (I've never had an AI or II one myself) and how this is rape.

No doubt some people don't see their bees as a responsibility, but most of the beekeepers I know do.


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## Andy (Jun 12, 2003)

Looks like I stirred up a bees nest! One of the best parts of being a human is being able to have an opinion of your own. This trait also causes people not to get along.
As a lifelong farmer I've had to kill alot of things I didn't want to. I've also killed a lot of things I enjoyed killing.(I raise sheep, I take great delight every time I kill a coyote or feral dog) I think (opinion)anyone fooling with livestock, of any kind, not willing to protect it, or deal with fate(putting down something that is suffering) shouldn't own livestock. That being said I respect some peoples feelings about not killing things themselves, just have someone you can turn to. Breeders of anything have to do something with culls. Usually there is a market, but if not? Otherwise we wouldn't have breeds or strains of anything. I hope I haven't offended anyone, and next time I catch a varmint, I won't tell.


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## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

Andy, no offense taken here. We live in the country and used to have goats. We have had to kill dogs before that were jumping the fence to get the babies. We also have cats and a dog, and would readily kill anything trying to kill them. It's just a part of rural life sometimes. I think that people who live in the city all their lives don't comprehend realities of what they would probably consider a wilder sort of lifestyle. I wouldn't trade it for anything personally.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

This is indeed an interesting thread. I have had to contact PETA when I have seen animals being mistreated. There isn't many other organizations that readily take action when action is needed. However, as with many organizations, people can be ignorant. I wouldn't attempt to say what beekeepers do or don't do, because there are beekeepers all over the world (practically) and I only know a few of them. Can't say what the rest do.

As for putting down animals, I find some hypocracy in it all, as well. I can't figure out why some domestic animals are treated differently than others regarding the law. 

As for protecting animals, I agree with one doing what one has to do within the law. I know about dogs and livestock and wild animals. I don't know how many pet dogs I have had to shoot because they were chasing the rabbits or squirrels on my property. Cats for chasing the birds and field mice. And cows and horses who have gotten in my fields and clogged up the prairie dog holes with their legs. 

Waya


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

This thread is a good example of how words offend. Member's have written words, only to have to come back and preface them. The agreement to using this board is civility. Even if comments are in jest, using inflammatory statements are not accepted, period. Express your point of view in a civil manner that shows respect for others.

Avoid sarcasm and be careful with humor. You are communicating entirely by your words. You don't have the benefit of facial expression, body language, or tone of voice to let somebody know you're "only kidding" when you make a sarcastic remark. Members of the list will appreciate well-written, humorous pieces or responses, but be sure your writing will
be interpreted that way.

- Barry

[This message has been edited by Barry (edited February 18, 2004).]


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Barry, I understand what your saying. And I'm asking is it possible? It seems 99% knew how it started (in jest) and 1% clearly missed the whole coversation. It is sad that this happened. And nobody used demeaning, critical, belittling, or other types of inappropriate language or confrontational one on one statements.

Best comment used yet concerning this whole thing was "Goodness Graciuos". I guess that summed it up.

I personally do not JUST come to this site for factual information on beekeeping. But a way or conversating with beekeepers on a host of issues. Some even personal. I'll have to readjust my thinking from now on. Sorry you felt the need, especially after all the apoligy comments previously made, to still feel the need to make a statement. SORRY.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Animal rights, or lack thereof, is a sensitive issue and I think whether discussed over a forum or face to face, there are bound to be clashes. 

I'm not so sure I agree that rural vs. urban cultural differences are at the root of these clashes. I have spent time extensively in both environments and have seen both opinions expressed in each. I would speculate in fact, that a significant number PETA members have been brought up in rural environments, and their beliefs are based on an emotional backlash against that environment. Whether one believes it a necessity of life or not, most I know who have visited a slaughter house or an industrial chicken farm find it to be, at least initially, a depressing and saddening experience. One may become accustomed to such things certainly, but one may just as easily become disgusted by them as well. A slaughter house is not a fun place.

In contrast to Andy, I cringe when I hear about natural predators being killed with glee, even as I understand that it is sometimes necessary to protect ones livelyhood. There is a reason that deer populations around the country are out of control. Wolves in North America were hunted and killed almost to extinction in the name of protecting tiny portions of vast herds of cattle which in turn replaced the vast herds of wild buffalo that had already been wiped out. 

In rural areas, killing predatory animals is sometimes an understandable necessity, both for livestock protection and personal safety. However, I think it important to recognize that the killing of these animals has a direct impact on the surrounding ecological system. Possums are predatory animals (insects mostly) and serve a very important ecological purpose. The elimination of such creatures inevitably carries with it unforeseen negative consequences on this ecology. 

It is often the animals we "hate" that are most beneficial to us. Sharks, snakes, wolves, possums, coyote, bats, the list goes on and on. These are the species we should be doing our most to preserve, not wipe out, as they provide ecological balance to an easily disturbed natural system.

Kai


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## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

I don't hate any animal, but I will take care of a problem when it presents itself. We have a live creek, and therefore (in this part of the country) lots of copperheads. I don't hate them, and I truly wish they would just stay on the creek and out of my garden, because I don't like to kill them, but in the interest of saving my own fingers or feet, I kill the ones that take up residence in my vegetable or flower beds, because I'm not stupid enough to think that I can just move them. I am an organic gardener, and I know where you are coming from with discussions of ecosystems and all, but I figure that on my 12 acres, keeping just one of them free of copperheads is acceptable practice. I work hard to keep this place inhabitable for all kinds of bugs, insects, arachnids, reptiles, and mammals, but there are sensible limits that I place at times.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

I have had chickens for years. Hawks get a few each year but I do not try and kill them. Total last year was about 20 chickens by hawks. This is starting to be a problem. Hawks a finally making a come back here. So what is a good solution to this problem?

Snakes are my friends but I kill every copperhead I see. Rattle snakes are left alone unless they are around the house(I have young children). Rattler let you know they are there copper heads strike first and will even come at you to stike. The no poisons snakes are played with and when found place near my home and barns(when I had them). They are my natural rodent killers. I have never had a big problem with mice.

We do not have wolves or true coyotes. We have coy dogs which I have killed several. But I kill more pets than wild animals. My dads farm is 1/2 mile out of the city limits. We get alot of dropped animals. We try to catch these and take them to the pound but many will not come to you and as they get hungry they come after my animals so the rifle comes out.

I have injoyed this thread and could not see what happened when the joke was made about peta. But I hate them and find no use for them as our humane society does a good job with a more level head. That animal loving person that turned me in for shooting the mare also called the human society on me for keeping a dog in an electric fence. She was the goat dog watching the goats in an electric fence. When they came out it was raining and as alway near the barn becomes a muddy mess(early spring). They asked that I spread crushing(size of limestone rock) in the dry summer to keep the animals out of the mud but told the neighbor not to call again. Simple solution without getting mad which was doable by both parties. Of course they told me there was nothing wrong with the hot wires to keep the goats in the fence.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have had chickens for years. Hawks get a few each year but I do not try and kill them. Total last year was about 20 chickens by hawks. This is starting to be a problem. Hawks a finally making a come back here. So what is a good solution to this problem?

I haven't lost any that I know of to the hawks, but I lost a lot last year that just disappeard. I assumed it was the coyotes of which there are a lot around here.

If you keep them in a yard you can get a net for the top. Pheasant places sell plastic ones that you coud put up with just a pole in the center and wired to the chicken wire fence.

Of course if you let them run loose that won't work.

I wonder if there would be a way to bait the hawks with a chicken and scare them badly enough they wouldn't come back?

Maybe one of those Great Horned Owl decoys would intimidate them?

Maybe make a golden eagle decoy to scare them?

Just throwing out ideas.

>We do not have wolves or true coyotes. We have coy dogs which I have killed several. 

I haven't seen any coy dogs or wolves around here (except in the zoo), but we have lots of coyotes and some feral dogs.

>But I kill more pets than wild animals. My dads farm is 1/2 mile out of the city limits. We get alot of dropped animals. We try to catch these and take them to the pound but many will not come to you and as they get hungry they come after my animals so the rifle comes out.

I'm not sure I'd call an abandoned dog a pet. I have had to shoot a few dogs that were eating the chickens. None every had a collar on them.

>That animal loving person that turned me in for shooting the mare also called the human society on me for keeping a dog in an electric fence. She was the goat dog watching the goats in an electric fence. 

Most electric fences a dog can easily figure a way through. But even if they can't, I've only ever seen one dog that didn't catch on pretty quickly to an electric fence. 

I had a neighber call the humane society once because my dog didn't have a dog house. The dog would sleep under a covered porch that was closed in on three sides and when it was really cold would lay up against the warm basement window or close to the drier vent. I was forced to build a doghouse. I built one with a double blandex wall with 1 1/2" Styrofoam insulation inside the walls and the floor and a plastic flap door so he could see out and not have the wind blowing in. Of course I worked for hours just to lure the dog INTO the dog house the first time and he never did sleep in the dog house while we lived there. But they were happy now that I had one.

He did finally start sleeping in it when we moved somewhere that didn't have such a nice porch to sleep under.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Most electric fences a dog can easily figure a way through. But even if they can't, I've only ever seen one dog that didn't catch on pretty quickly to an electric fence. 


Darn, been gone for a week, missed out on the edited replies. Oh well.

I live in the city where electric fences are illegal, but as most of us would, we do what we have to to protect our pets and property.

One of my three Norweigan Elkhounds would dig under the fence and get out taking her brother with her on romps through the neighborhoods. After countless hours of trying to find them, or bailing them out of the dog pound, I put an electric fence just off the surface of the ground all around the privacy fence. It worked for quite a while, it was interesting to watch them test the fence. It looked like they were sniffing the wire, but in reality they would feel their wiskers being attracted to the impulse of the electricity as it coursed through the wire.

Unfortunly she just started digging further away from the fence and deeper untill they got out and her brother got pancaked. We found a good home for her in the country where she became inseperatable from her new human and his sheep. They went everywhere together and were very happy.

The sad part is that a neighbor who was irritated by my dogs getting out poisoned them, and both the females died at about the same time from cancer.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Bullseye Bill, (Unless whole posts were deleted, and none were edited,)... you read the entire forum. What makes you think something was missing?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Wishthefish and Tia made references to remarks that I could not find so I assumed that the offensive remarks were deleted by the Guard Bees that be.

I, for one, enjoy your satire and most times the banting that it causes.

We shouldn't take ourselves so seriously that we can't enjoy what we do. I am here to learn and share, but a humorless classroom is dull and tireing. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink...


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

um yeah. I too am sorry if I offended anyone. I was under the impression that a number of us are used to posting together and have a respect for each other's experience, knowledge, difference of opinion, etc. And therefore, a little literary liberty would be acceptable.

However, if we are going to have a Serious discussion regarding PETA. I am game. However, even as you all are reading this, I think I hear snickering in the background. I can appreciate that not everyone takes PETA seriously. Like I stated before, when I was witnessing a Cheetah that I had trained to walk on a leash being handled by some people who had no previous experience with the animal and they were dragging her up a sidewalk on her side leaving streaks of blood on the concrete, I contacted PETA. I had to face the fact that my employer didn't care, it was his wish that the animal be treated this way and why I was replaced. I had to find someone who would take my concerns seriously. They never acted on it, because the issue didn't go that far. But who else could I turn to? 

(Now stop your snickering 
WayaCoyote


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

I don't think you missed any posts, nor were any edited to my knowledge. I want to make it clear that I took nothing that was said personally. That's why I used the words "perceived sarcastic attack" and "implied tagging". I think miscommunication is what has occurred on these posts, nothing more. Certainly I do not feel I was attacked on a personal level. There really is no need for apologies, I certainly was not offended.

Finally, it seems clear that most of us here have a big problem with PETA's extreme stance on animal rights, while at the same time we recognize that cruelty to animals, (which is essentially what PETA believes they are fighting against), is reprehensible. I am sure that PETA has probably done a lot of good things and stepped in and helped where there was a clear cut case of animal cruelty. On the other hand, right now, in D.C. people are nightly tearing down PETA posters in the subways because they explicitly state that if drug testing on even one animal led to a cure for AIDS PETA would be against it. Such a stance is clearly ridiculous when half of Africa is dying from AIDS, the disease is reaching epidemic proportions in India and China, and 25,000 people in the States die each year of AIDS related causes.

Were half the PETA members to wake up and find themselves infected with HIV, I have no doubt they would find themselves to be a much reduced organization. Who but the healthy could maintain such a stance?

Kai 
aka Wishthecuttlefish


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Jeez, you guys have totally missed my point! I wasn't going to respond to any of this nonsence, but I can't believe you're still hashing it out after all these days! Just so you know for future reference, I personally don't give a rat's a-- about who hates and who likes PETA, who feels justified in killing whatever they kill, or who feels any killing is wrong--those are your opinions and you are entitled to them. What I do object to is:
(1) the attitude, "if you don't agree with my opinion, well then you're just stupid," and 
(2) that all this nonsense is totally OT! What the heck has this got to do with bees? 

If you want to discuss the virtues of PETA, etal, shouldn't you move over to the tailgating section of these boards?

By the way, I used to belong to PETA and found their beliefs to be way too radical. They get me so mad I won't even look at their website despite the fact that you guys have posted several URLs for them. I live on 5 acres where a lot of "survival of the fittest" goes on. I have no problem with that or with killing predators if necessary ("if necessary" being the operative words). But why can't we all just "play nice" and if the subject matter doesn't apply to bees and beekeeping, why can't we just take it over to the tailgating board?


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

I believe discussions of PETA are not OT and do directly relate to bees and beekeeping, and diseases and pests specifically for the following reasons:

1. PETA has official policies regarding bees and beekeeping which are open to discussion and criticism.

2. PETA has official policies regarding treatment of the pests which beekeepers routinely encounter and these are open to discussion and criticism.

Finally, people are discussing this thread in this topic area because a. this is where it started and b. they find it an interesting one.

Kai


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

I haven't deleted anything, I promise you, and if I ever did I'd leave a note to say so. I was a little concerned at the tone of the discussion earlier, but see nothing wrong with discussing PETA as such. I don't like that sort any more than the rest of you, but I wonder whether you've got any more responsible organisation in the States which looks after animal welfare. We have the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Protection of Animals) which does a good job on the whole, and various extremists, a few of whom sometimes descend into violence. I do feel it reflects the sort of society we live in; my church used to sing carols outside the local supermarket every year; its something I'm hoping to start again. One year we were competing with one of the animal organisations, while we were collecting for the Childrens' Hospital, which was at the time just across the road. They got far more money than us.

------------------
Regards,

Robert Brenchley

[email protected]
Birmingham UK


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When I first heard of PEAT I thought to myself, "finally a group concerned about treating animals with respect". I didn't realize until I checked into them thier ideas and mine didn't exactly coincide. I would love to see a group that is a proponent of animals being treated better. I'd like to see chickens in cages allowed more room. I'd like to see less of the "factory" approach to raising animals and more of letting them be who they are. 

My chickens peck on the ground, dust in the dirt, chase each other around and live in a flock. I'm not necessarily in favor of a lot of legistlation to force people to treat animals correctly. I think we have a lot of that already. The government would probably screw it up anyway, but I'd like to see more awareness of people as to where their food comes from and how those animals were treated during their life.

I saw an interesting presentation about what size animals cages should be. Some scientists built cages that would expand and contract by moving two walls on the cage. The animals (chickens, pigs etc.) could push on the wall and it would sense it and move out more. It would grow quickly in response to the animals but shrink slowly. The scienists noted the point at which they animals were uncomfortable enough to "grow" the pen and the point at which they were comfortable enough to stop making it bigger. Somewhere in the middle of that range would make sense to me as a minimum cage size. In the long run that size would increase production because the animals would be less stressed.

Anyway, I, for one, would like to see animals allowed to be who they are until I eat them.







A society that would certify places as being more ethical in their raising of animals so that consumers could favor them would be nice.

The "Humane Society" (usually the ASPCA or American Society for the Prevention of Cruetly to Animals) http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer is usually the more resonable organization that is an advocate for the animals. They are occasionally hard nosed about things (like my dog living under my porch) but mostly are reasonable people.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Okay, so it appears that you all feel my opinion of and discomfort with the "banter" is unfounded. I guess I'm wrong then. I hereby "butt out," and I apologize if I riled or offended anyone. Mea culpa.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Okay, so it appears that you all feel my opinion of and discomfort with the "banter" is unfounded. I guess I'm wrong then. I hereby "butt out," and I apologize if I riled or offended anyone. Mea culpa.


Oh, Tia. Don't take it so personal, these threads take on a life of their own. I really don't think that you offended anyone, surely not me. Think of some of these threads as a roller coster ride, some go right, some go left, and some just go flat. And sometimes, they just won't go away.

Set back and enjoy a tasty animal.


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## briancady413 (Dec 8, 2003)

Andy, sorry about the dental surgery agony, and the hive damage.

On 'possums, If you kill it, wh not eat it? (Anybody got a good 'possum stew recipe?)

Dragonfly, thanks for the Hivestand description - I wonder if the tanglefoot retards possums as well.

I do wonder if it might be easier to fence out 'possums, or use hivestands, instead of hunt them. I guess maybe the whole approach should match the 'possum involved - some might be hive-freindly, and keep worse ones out of their hive-including territory. Maybe PETA could co-sponsor 'possum hive freindliness schools, where one could take one's 'possums for a proper upbringing. (That was a joke.)

Maybe we could breed 'possum-proof bees. (Also a joke.)

My Mom built steps to, and a platform on a garage roof, where her hives were - no 'possum problems, but I did worry about her lifting a super and stepping too far backwards one day... I could do something like that - she never did.

Brian Cady


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## BeeMiner (Aug 8, 2003)

A bit of useless historical PETA trivia...

The original PETA.com domain name was purchased by an individual who created a web site devoted to "People Eating Tasty Animals". It really jerked PETA's cord and eventually they bought the domain name for their organization.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

First of all, I would like to say that my bees seem to be doing fine. Thanks for asking.

Now, I would like to point out that, Mike, you called PETA, "PEAT" as though you are on a first-name basis with them. I think you may be a member. So I will just have to picket you. 

And it seems that Tia is discriminating against untastie animals, "Tia >Set back and enjoy a tasty animal. " And, for that, I will have to picket you.

I can look for a 'possum recipe. My uncle traps them and gives them to some of his friends who really enjoy eatting them. But if I do come across one and you try it, please let me know so that I can picket you. 

Brian, You can't go on talking about breeding "'possum-proof bees". I think that is gene manipulation and will have to picket you for that.

Tia, I don't find this topic interesting! It is wrong for you to make prejudice assumptions about me by saying "they find it an interesting one". I will have to picket you.

Robert, I appreciate you tolerance of this thread. And I appreciate that you are an active "church-going" man. And I appreciate what you have there in the UK for animals. I have seen some of their work on TV. Never the less, I will have to picket you. sorry chap.

Did I miss anyone? Sorry if I did. Speak up and I will "pick-at-you" too.
Waya



[This message has been edited by wayacoyote (edited February 21, 2004).]


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

In South Africa we had to contend with the Honey Badger. Fortunately Fish and Wildlife were very cooperative in trapping and relocating these feisty and highly aggressive creatures.

What do the Forum members feel needs to be done with the bears, damaging beehives in the USA and Canada?


------------------
If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Most seem to be using the "bacon wrapped" electric fence method with good success. Of course, since MY bees aren't at risk, I don't want to see the bears destroyed. If they were my hives, I'm sure I'd feel differently.


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## Andy (Jun 12, 2003)

Since I now resolve to eat everything I kill, or find on the road in cool weather, I would have to say bear meat is a sight tastier than possum.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2004)

While I understand the group's hatred for certain
specific mammals that prey upon beehives, and can 
laugh at the "PETA" jokes, I don't think that any 
of us have to kill ANY of God's creatures to protect 
our bees, except perhaps yellow jacket nests living 
under a colony.

(I'll wait a moment for the gales 
of laughter to die down...)

No, I'm serious. There are many non-lethal and cheap
alternatives. My favorite for mammals smaller than
a bear is even free. Find a carpet installer, and
ask him where his next removal job will be. Go there,
and pick up a near-infinite supply of "carpet strips",
which look like wooden rulers with tacks sticking out
in a regular pattern. Take 'em all - hand them out at
your next local beekeeping association meeting.

If you watch a skunk, possum, or other "varmint", you
will see that they are very tentative in their initial
approach to a hive, and encountering a sharp object
with their paw will cause them to loose interest quickly.

The strips are stapled to the front edge of the bottom
board. You have to watch out for them yourself, or
you will snag your pants on them.

You might call it "mean" or "cruel", but this non-lethal 
and low-tech approach works, is "ethical", and is beyond 
the criticism of even the most radical member of PETA.
(Scratched paws heal quickly - bullet wounds rarely do.)

As for bears, the state of Virginia traps problem bears 
and releases them far, far back in the mountains. Lots 
of National Forest for them to live without encountering 
temptation. The cattle farmers are more worried about them
than I am, so nearly every bear that is sighted outside the
National Forest boundary is reported, trapped, and relocated.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

"Beyond critism of even PETA....." If it were up to them, there would be no beekeepers, period. I'm not sure appeasing them by thinking tack strips is adequate for this organization is correct. They have taken a good concept, the ethical treatment of animals, and went way over board. Reminds me of religion. Good for many people, but a few want to be fanatic, radical, and twist scripture into self serving justification for unwrongful acts. I always say, if you shoot the 10% on the far left, and shoot the 10% on the far right, the middle 80% could live in peace. Animals, religion, and politics all wrapped together, ......I'm sure someone will misinterprete something I said.....So anyone?


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## Andy (Jun 12, 2003)

Coincidentally, the State of Virginia no longer traps problem bears. Current policy calls for handing out rubber buckshot and telling people to put up electric fence. Also when they did do trap and transfer they dumped them practically in my back yard. Wild expanses of national forest often mean someones back yard. The years that they did that we had some of the top bear kills in the state by hunters. Thats why they turned them loose in National Forest, free hunter access, more license sales, no cuddly creatures harmed in front of news crews in metro areas. All the problem bears came from metro areas. Rural problem bears don't exhist, unless they moved from the city.


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## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

only 10% on both sides, i was going more for 15%


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

"I don't think any of us needs to kill ANY of God's creatures to protect our bees"

What about mites?


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

The worst bear depredation we ever had was in the years the state of cal. in its infinite wisdom released dozens of problem park bears around MY beeyards.No electric fence would keep them out.I became an expert bear hunter in self defense.


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## John D. Smith (Mar 17, 2003)

What's an unwrongful act? Is that like stealing bread to feed your starving family?


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## John D. Smith (Mar 17, 2003)

I thought about it and I decided to write this letter to PETA. I know they won't change anything, but I wanted them to know that I grew up on a farm and I know what bull crap smells like.

Dear PETA,

I just read your "information" on beekeeping and honey production. I'm curious as to whether anyone in your organization has actaully researched the topic. Your article seemed to use only agenda-based references to prove your facts rather than actual scientific or beekeeping-related sources. I appreciate and recognize the fact that you believe that you are correct. I would recommend that you actually investigate topics rather than regurgetating propaganda that is pandering to your audience. I am a fourth generation beekeeper and I have degrees in Animal and Veterinary Science as well as Environmental Science. I understand what you're trying to accomplish, but your cartoonish approach to preservation alienates the vast majority. People need to be educated, but your tactics are misguided. Your headline today that, "Meat makes you fat" is an example. Overeating and lack of exercise makes you fat. These half truths chop away at your credibility. Meat can be a part of a healthy diet and provides specific, essential nutrients needed for proper development. Regarding your honeybee position, many of the "facts" listed in your article are simply incorrect. It is clear to a beekeeper that it was written by someone that knows nothing about the subject. It saddens me to know that many of your uninformed readers will fall prey to your agenda. You should be ashamed. You claim to be such proponents of animals, yet you do them a great disservice by distributing your brand of information. I think if you presented science based fact without the emotion-based embelishment, you'd be more sucessful in educating the causual reader rather than repulsing them. I am not seeking a propaganda-based reply laced with undertones of anger. I am an educated person and can not be swayed. If you have a constructive response please reply. I'd love to hear that the article was written by a beekeeper/PETA member, but i'd venture that most of your members/readers have never even seen a bee hive, let alone seen a real beekeeper in action.

Best Regards,


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

John, I was referring to acts of hatred, bigotry, and the like. But I guess technically yes. If your referring to stealing in association of justifying it somehow based on religious beliefs, absolutely. I know of no religion that promotes taking of anothers belongings due to one's shortcomings.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2004)

>> "I don't think any of us needs to kill 
>> ANY of God's creatures to protect our bees"

> What about mites?

Sorry, I thought that it would be obvious 
that mites are the SPAWN OF THE DEVIL!!!!


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Touche!


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## John D. Smith (Mar 17, 2003)

I knew what was meant by "unwrongful". It's a double negative and I was just making (albeit lame) a joke.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"but mites are people too"
typical PETA statement

There will not be any PETA beekeepers because they believe it is imoral. There are plenty of links above that will show you their view, but to condense some of that down here are the salient points "we beekepers" are accused of:

We murder the poor attendants that are shipped with the queens.

The queen breeders rip the heads off of the drones to get the semen and "rape" the queens to breed them. (Apparently all queens are II and I hate to tell them what "naturally" happend to the drones)

We kill lots of bees with our manipulations.

We "force" the bees to live in our hives as slave labor.

We steal all of the work that the bees do.

We kill off all the bees by burning the whole hive every winter and buying new ones every spring.

I, for one was amazed that this is how it is done and I never learned to do any of these things. I must be a very backward beekeeper.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2004)

Actually, my heart cries out everytime I hear the screams from a stalk of sorghum that gets murderously crushed in the venumous jaws of a machine so that we can drink the sweet blood crushed from it's veins! Plants are people too, y'know! Who says that plants don't have feelings? Prove it!!

I'd rather employ thousands of little cute fuzzy honeybees to gather nectar for me, providing them a home, medical insurance, and a small retirement pension that will get them through a long winter.


 Rick


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There is actually quite a bit of research that would prove that plants have feelings. Personally I think it's wrong to eat plants. They don't even have a sporting chance. They can't run away and escape. I believe people should only eat meat. Animals at least have the chance of escaping or defending themselves.


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## John D. Smith (Mar 17, 2003)

I don't think people should eat meat OR plants. They shouldn't drink water or breathe air either because they're just another tool used in the opressive growth of plants and animals. The water also contains microbes and drinking it destroys their habitat not to mention the microbes. I haven't consumed ANYTHING for over 12 years. It's hard to be so superior, but I've been living on moonbeams and fairy dust. Actually, it's nonfairy, fairy dust made from starlight and day dreams.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

John (again), I knew you were only joking. I being educated can see humor. Even if its lame(your words, not mine) from other people. Its when others dont use those handy little icons, that people read into things way to much. I tried to broaden the scope of the icons in a tailgater forum entitled "Icon Identification". My suggestions of including other fingers as icons, I felt could of been used a few times towards me.

You have to be so careful these days not to offend a liberal (I never do), a person from another country, of heaven forbid a sensitive whimpy beekeeper from Beesource. Being all classified as "demigods", you really can't step too hard.


I joined PETA yesterday. So please stop this bashing of an organization that is truly trying to help all of you from the dissappointment of losing your hives. Most of you have no idea what your talking about, or reading. I had tried to infiltrate the organization of PETA, but after joining, and seeing the love for all of gods creatures, I am giving up beekeeping. I hope all of you come to your senses. 

I have to go now. Gotta go check the calender and see when spring is here. Think it must me months off, seeing the snow pile up out side.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I joined PETA yesterday. So please stop this bashing of an organization that is truly trying to help all of you from the dissappointment of losing your hives. 
>>Most of you have no idea what your talking about, or reading.

****, you miss stepped there!!
I think it is very ignorant for you to state "Most of you have no idea what your talking about, or reading". We all have our thoughts and feelings about "the use of animals" in human survival. I think we are capable of making our own minds up. PETA does nothing but misinform the public with twisted truths and false facts. PETAs camain is so outragious, that I really think the the public is starting to outright dissmiss their messages. They may help by straightening out some of these megabarns, but in general, they are not turning peoples attitude of the use of animals anymore per-capita than when the orginization first started,... 

Ian


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

When you write something, in your own mind, it sounds exactly how you want it to sound. And when you read something, you get out of it what you want it to read.

My last post was an attempt to see if anyone would take seriuosly something I wrote, and since I wrote the post under the "winking yellow head", and this meaning "in jest", I wondered if nobody understood, didn't want to get involved, didn't care what I wrote, or thought I was being serious about the whole post.

It was a slow day and I thought maybe by writing the last post, I could make it more interesting and keep the post going. It has been enjoyable and interesting. Nobody really bit on the comments.......Until Ian.

Ian, seriously, I'm a 78 year old grandmother of 6, and don't have time for PETA and most of the stuff I write about. I'm really harmless. Just having fun.........


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Ian, seriously, I'm a 78 year old grandmother of 6, and don't have time for PETA and most of the stuff I write about. I'm really harmless. Just having fun......... 

Sorry BjornBee,

Miss interpreted your post, . I have been reading your posts for a while and this one of yours took me back. Whops, well anyway you know my opinion on PETA. Not a fan at all. Guess I tend to be blunt sometimes, just thought i'd challenge a thought, to which I thought was genuine,.. Anyway straighten me out next time if I missunderstand again. 

Ian


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## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

Ian, I think you just have to understand Bjorn's cynical dry sense of humor. Probably just a disappointed idealist at the root of it all (like most of us who survived the sixties with our better sense still intact), lol. Micheal, when I have tried to use the example that eating a lettuce leaf is just as much taking of life as eating a chicken, and I really have used that very analogy, I usually get blank stares. Humans, in general, tend to humanize things they can identify human qualities in (example: emotions in their pets) and they extend that response to other animals, but they fail to see that every plant is a living thing as well. The whole planet survives by killing, eating, and dying so that other things can kill, eat, and die. It's the beauty and the reality of Nature.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

As a 78 year old grandmother, no wait....did I say 68 year old? Guess it doesn't matter, the dates would be all wrong for the sixties. I must be aging with all these comments making me so old. I was still crapping my pants in the sixties. Now some have said "I am living out of my time", but the sixties never really was considered.


A character that was modeled after me from the sixties was Austin Powers - international man of mystery. Maybe with a little Doctor Evil thrown in. BUT with always the women of course. I always thought I was a John Wayne type, at least I thought so. But for Vanessa.(yea baby!)...I could change, but then add whole lots more Doctor evil to the mix....


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/recklessmind-00229734.jpg 

A picture is worth how many words?


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