# forcing queen cells



## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

When I have time I want to learn to graft, but for now, to get a handful of queens for my requeening or selling a few, forcing queen cells seems like a good method.

What do I need to know? When do I cut them out to prevent a swarm?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I'm a little confused on what you mean by "forcing queen cells." Are you referring to keeping a regular colony in a single brood box, or even a nuc, and allowing them to swarm, but then cutting out a few cells and putting them in mating nucs?

Not a terrible idea, but not the best. You are able to get a few queens, but you often arn't able to stop the parent hive from swarming. You sacrifice one hive for a half a dozen queens. 

There are a number of systems that allow you to keep the hive, and the queens.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Specialkayme said:


> I'm a little confused on what you mean by "forcing queen cells."


I meant congesting them to the point to where they start queen cells, then cutting the cells out and giving the hive more room before they swarm. I've cut cells out after swarming a number of times and gotten very good queens, but I don't see why this wouldn't work if the timing was right. Robert Russell mentioned this in his last post in "Emergency Queens"


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

If you are going to use these to increase the number hives. Why not just make splits let them make there own queen.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Birdman said:


> If you are going to use these to increase the number hives. Why not just make splits let them make there own queen.


My experience with splits is that the queens don't seem to be consistently good.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Just keep them in the 5 frame and they will congest on their own. Or you can brush them down...

As for the walk away split, it's "considered" better to let the bees build swarm cells vice emergency cells..

But, I'd probably just do the walk away..


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

After the cells are started, they could be cut out and put in finishers. The hive could then be given more room. Would that stop the swarm instinct?


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Can I share a thread that I read. Very good info from "oldtimer". It's been great for me to learn about. They've copied all of the info here http://www.beesource.com/resources/...queen-cells-without-grafting-cut-cell-method/ I'd encourage you to read the thread also. It has other good info. Yesterday it was about 12 pages long I think. Search "raising queens without grafting" and you should find it.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

no once the get in swarm mode its hard to stop. Remove the old queen will stop it.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Frame of fresh wax foundation with newly drawn comb as soon as you have some 4 day old larvae in some of the cells drop it into a queenless cell starter for 24 hours then move it to a queen right cell builder overtop of a queen excluder pull on the 14th day or 10 days after you move the 4 day old larvae. Cut the cells apart best you can and install in mating nucs. 

Use fresh drawn comb so they can tear the cells down easier and build good queen cells. I like to cut the wax foundation leaving 4 day old larvae at the very bottom where they can build cells straight down without having to tear the cells down. It's called the miller method. It's a great method when you only need a handful of queens. Move to a queen right cell builder so they will be fed better. This method produces good queens. You will always have the occasional dud with any queen rearing program make up more mating nucs then you need. Keep the best queens and kill the rest.

Good Luck,
Dan


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Seems risky. They may just swarm. But I guess if you push the timing so you don't have to check for cells every day and you split before they do it could work. If you shake a lot of extra bees into a hive and/or give them a lot of emerging brood stolen from other hives you could maximize the population. If you remove all available room in addition, they will probably start preparing fairly quickly after that. Then if you split the hive every which way with each split having a queen cell, you could probably head off the swarm. I don't do it on purpose (getting them to do swarm preparations) but when I find them with a lot of swarm cells that's exactly what I do. I split it as many ways as I have queen cells for.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

How about as soon as queen cells were started, if I was to remove the queen and enough bees/stores/brood to a different location and leave behind a lot of nurse bees to supply the cells with royal jelly. Then split into mating nukes when the cells are capped.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

It works... but you may loose the swarm in doing so... you can pull a nuc and induce their swarm instinct in it instead of the hive so you do not chance losing such a bulk in the hive... Sounds like you have the right idea, the only advice I would add is to look over your hives and pull the best pollen frame and a solid honey frame and scratch the honey frame with your hive tool to make it runny... This is just like I set up my primers, and it just gives the best nutrition you can give them. Check on the fourth day and cut out any capped and/or capping... Good luck! Experiment and have fun.

Hope this helps!


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Just saw yo last post... That will work too... or you could do it in reverse as I suggested... pull the nuc and the queen and tons of nurse bees from the beginning... Once the cells are started you can pull the queen from the nuc and give her back to the hive. You just want to get them to start the cells under the swarm instinct, after they get started, they will finish either way.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

rrussell6870 said:


> You just want to get them to start the cells under the swarm instinct, after they get started, they will finish either way.


How concerned should I be about the makeup of the nuc once I've moved the queen back?

What percentage of good queens should I expect?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Keep a heavy number of young bees, pollen, and honey (scratch it again or even add a new one if need be)... fresher wax is easier for them to manipulate and thus it will produce a higher rate than older comb would... if all goes right I would say 80%-90% "good" swarm cell queens... I would say all of them will be good, but they may tend to certain ones less than the others, so you never know... but queens raised under swarm conditions are much more consistent that e-queens and when you cut out the cells to put in your mating nucs, just leave the biggest in you swarm box and let it become a nuc as well... no need for waste. For the mating nucs with queens that don't hatch or don't get going right, you can repeat the process or if your resources are thin, you can add those nucs back to the others to help them build up to ten frames faster.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

You are very welcome... I would still encourage you to try grafting at least a few cells... Its easier than it sounds and you will find it easier and more effecient than any other method. Grafting is one of my favorite parts of bee keeping... Just dont want you to miss out on it.

Good Luck and let me know how your swarm queens take.


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## Duboisi (Oct 7, 2009)

Birdman said:


> If you are going to use these to increase the number hives. Why not just make splits let them make there own queen.


With splits you get emergency queens that may or may not be of good quality.

With crowding, the queen cells will be custom made instead of transformed worker cells. AFAIK, swarms cells are as good as a grafted or supersede cell.

I see that some think that there is a risk that they may swarm. That might be true if not all the Qcells are discovered during inspection.

I am completely fresh with bees, but my plan is to do the same as Heaflaw and TheFatBeeman. My take on it, is that I plan to crowd a hive, and then split it with one Qcell in each split.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Duboisi said:


> I see that some think that there is a risk that they may swarm. That might be true if not all the Qcells are discovered during inspection.


The swarm impulse is an odd thing in beekeeping. Once they have gotten it in their minds to swarm, it is very difficult to get them to stop. Sometimes, what will get them to stop once isn't always consistent. 

For instance, if the old queen isn't around, sometimes the hive will still swarm with a virgin queen, or a newly mated queen. Sometimes they will issue 2-3 swarms from one hive (depending on the size of the colony). Occasionally, if you go through your hive and find swarm cells and destroy them all, the old queen might just swarm anyway, with or without new swarm cells.

As was stated earlier, initiating the swarming impulse increases the chance that you will lose a swarm. Even if you time everything right, it still might happen. The only thing you can do (if you chose this method) is attempt to reduce your losses in the future. Start off with a 5 frame nuc and initiate the swarm impulse in there, so if they do swarm you don't miss out on much (If you'll notice, that's why FatBeeMan does his in 5 frame nucs, in addition to the notion that it's easier to crowd them into 5 frames than it is to do it into 10 frames). Then plan on making SEVERAL splits from that nuc, so that the bees won't have enough population in either split to be able to swarm. Even then, you MIGHT lose a swarm, but you should get sufficient swarm cells to make good increases with.


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