# Testing pollen sub



## Johnny (Sep 7, 2007)

When doing lab testing on pollen sub you've made, what profiles do you ask for? Is it just the protein, fat and ph? Or should you have them test for anything else? If so what else are you looking for? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
John


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ahhhh gee, now you want to make your own after you've used the best.  

Some use the Degroot protein profile as the BIBLE of profiles... & and some don't. Some never mention "fats" in there sub, but heres some thoughts on those vitiams,minerals,cholesterol,lipuids far out weigh protein alone on your radar screen.

Johnny, don't be fooled by "crude protein" this doesn't mean much, what your looking for is soluble protein, ie, what is extracted in the bees gut, not what just passes through.

Here is your quiz for the day John, Beta-Carotene, Beta-Cryptoxanthin,trans-Lutein,alpha-Carotene & so on, I could go for hours But I don't want to tip my hat to the folks that try to copy my sub or rename there's as close as they can to mine.


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## 67630 (Jul 17, 2008)

Dont forget about the amino acids. Wait till silliker tells you what that costs for the test. If keith is selling to you the best bet is keep buying it from him. Obviously he knows what he is doing.


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## Johnny (Sep 7, 2007)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ahhhh gee, now you want to make your own after you've used the best.
> 
> I don't want to tip my hat to the folks that try to copy my sub or rename there's as close as they can to mine.


Hey Keith,

I'm just fooling around with some yeast and sugar. Speaking of the best I'm ready for some of that 



And they charge you double.:scratch:


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Johnny said:


> Hey Keith,
> 
> I'm just fooling around with some yeast and sugar.


Hey John, that sums up about 90% of the commercial folks.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

You mean there is more than just yeast and sugar in there? Oh yeah Bee-Pro naaaaa just kidding. But seriously how can Keith ever say his stuff is as good as Mann Lakes' Ultra Bee until he starts spending more money on fancy colored ads to prove it.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> look no futher than globle patty soy & brewers yeast.


I am assuming you mean global patties...out of Alberta? Just asking, and asking if there is issues with this patty....just asking, no insult intended


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> Mann Lakes' Ultra Bee .


You mean Cargill's "Empyreal 75" never find that stuff in my sub. 

How about that gmo corn, lol


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

honeyshack said:


> if there is issues with this patty....just asking, no insult intended


Honeyshack, there's no issues with the globle patty they are fine, Johnny made a point of playing around with yeast as a sub ingredient, and I said 90% of the industry uses yeast of some sorts.


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## Johnny (Sep 7, 2007)

Okay so can someone tell me what a carotenoid is all about? :scratch:


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

glad that someone slid the card.to get his attention.


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

Keith Jarrett said:


> You mean Cargill's "Empyreal 75" never find that stuff in my sub.
> 
> How about that gmo corn, lol


Keith I googled Empyreal 75 according to cargill its the best thing since sliced bread? may I ask what problem you see with it? Thanks George


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

G B said:


> Empyreal 75 according to cargill its the best thing since sliced bread? Thanks George


Maybe for dog & cat food, What impressed you on this product George?


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

My point exactely keith, I see its for other animals but bees not mentioned. But Cargil seems to think its the best thing going. After I get done pulling honey I will have to make a fast trip to get some sub from you or Tom.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

G B said:


> I see its for other animals but bees not mentioned.


George, let me give you some data on this product, this is why I don't like it , you will have Amino acid "GLUTAMIC ACID" at 20.26 % then to only have "LYSINE" at 1.43%. Sure, it states that it has 75% crude protein but it is not very well balanced, just like they can state 20% cude protein in pollen sub,But we all know that the real question is "what is the limiting factor". Not to mention "empyreal75" is not milled toward honeybee use, and you will find roughly 25% is not used by bees. 

But I can say that stuff is CHEAP, about $.70 per pound, to the naked eye that looks like a real bargin for 75% CRUDE protein.


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

Hello Keith, well I guess I better just own up to the fact that I am trying to increase my hive count as fast as I can and just didnt want to spend alot of time studying up on these feed ingrediantes ( read eye glaze over rapidly) when studying up on this subject. I guess I will have to educate myself but there is just so darn much to learn about these little critters.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The thing is GB just don't worry about all that stuff. Let Keith figure it out and then go buy the Nutra Bee from him. If you are anything like me you just don't have enough brain cells to figure everything out, just delegate it to the experts.


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> The thing is GB just don't worry about all that stuff. Let Keith figure it out and then go buy the Nutra Bee from him. If you are anything like me you just don't have enough brain cells to figure everything out, just delegate it to the experts.


Thats kinda where I am at Jim.Just too much to learn for this late blooming bee keeper...lol But I guess I do need to have some basic understanding of the nutrition requirements


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

G B said:


> Thats kinda where I am at Jim.Just too much to learn for this late blooming bee keeper...lol But I guess I do need to have some basic understanding of the nutrition requirements


Shoot I had to go check my medicine cabinet, I thought Lisine was the stuff I use for mouthwash.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Visine for the eyes and Listerine for the breath. Lisine? No idea.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Alright, last winter I tested another brand and was impressed with how strong my hives were in the spring. - where can I get some nutra-bee to "test" this year?

Does it also ship in the form of straight pollen sub- add your own sugar?

Still on subject right?


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Brushy Mtn is selling what they describe as their own patties that they say is "much better" than the MegaBee. Any idea if it really is?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

heaflaw said:


> Any idea if it really is?


Heaflaw, the first step is to ask them what is there protein & fat level of there patty, then go from there, it's a good starting point.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The way I look at it (and I was only partly joking in my previous post) sure it's an amino acid and for those of you who want to get into the science of bee nutrition these are all crucial elements to a good bee supplement. But you really don't need to know all this stuff to be a good beekeeper any more than you have to understand the workings of a diesel engine to be a good truck driver. The great thing is that there are a lot of very bright people who spend a lot of time studying this stuff and the result is that the supplement business has a lot of great products out there with proven track records. Keith is one of them and from all the info I have gleaned no one is doing it any better and at a more reasonable price (some folks are good at spelling others at making supplements). He is a bit secretive on his exact formulation and why shouldnt he be, he has spent a lot of time and effort formulating it and has the results to prove it. So my suggestion is try some of his and try some of the other stuff, compare price and performance, see how it works for you and don't spend a lot of time worrying about Lisine errrr Lysine or anything else that might be in it for that matter.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Re: caratenoid.
Hint: What makes a pumpkin yellow orange.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

FYI:
This little snip was taken out of a Dr. of Veterinary Sciences explanation on Crude protein vs Digestible Protein.
Please make note of this accurate explanation.
Total Protein vs. Digestible Protein

The pet food label provides an estimate of a food’s crude protein content on its guaranteed analysis panel. This measure reflects only the total amount of protein and does not indicate differences in protein digestibility between high and low quality protein sources. For example:

Dog Food A contains 21 percent crude protein and is 86.0 % digestible.

Dog Food B contains 23 percent crude protein and is 76.0 % digestible.

Food A: 21g protein/100g diet x 0.86 = 18.1g protein absorbed

Food B: 23g protein/100g diet x 0.76 = 17.5g protein absorbed

Although the crude protein value reported for Dog Food A is lower than that for Dog Food B, Dog Food A’s higher digestibility results in more protein being available to the dog, in a given volume of food.
Here's the URL to give credit to the author;
http://ccspca.webs.com/apps/blog/en...ce-of-pet-food-digestibility-and-palatability


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well said Ernie, My dad was a Veterinary & show me alot of pointers on the Digestible side of things.

So, since the topic is "testing pollen sub" why don't we elect a person here on beesource to do just that. We will send this third party person, different types of sub and they can do a field trial?


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## 67630 (Jul 17, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well said Ernie, My dad was a Veterinary & show me alot of pointers on the Digestible side of things.
> 
> So, since the topic is "testing pollen sub" why don't we elect a person here on beesource to do just that. We will send this third party person, different types of sub and they can do a field trial?


Send em all to me I'll test em.


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## Thermwood (May 29, 2010)

Ready to test here in northern Nevada


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

Keith one of my commercial buddies has wanted to compare your sub to his own receipe. He is just sure you cant make quality sub and sell it for the price that you do. I have to come pick some up this fall anyway. How could a test be set up to compare the two subs? Any ideas? frame count ?weight ? any ideas? thanks George B


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Maybe Sheri could help here, really need to be third party, Jim L comes to mind or somebody 100% third party.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Well Keith I would be happy to do some testing, I have never really "cast my lot" with any particular product, we have made our own and used most of the other products that you see advertised, for me it's always been more about price and availability. My problems and concerns are that we do our pollen sub feeding in east Texas December through January and we are there only a relatively short time to do our work, also the logistics of getting the different products there might be a bit of a problem, perhaps a California site would be better? The other thing is for it to be done properly and fairly requires that it be done quite meticulously as far as controlling all the variables and accurately recording the results. I am more of a "slap em on and get er done" kind of guy. While I have no doubt that I could look at the results and have a pretty good idea what had performed the best I am not sure that a "seat of the pants assessment" would be fair to all the products involved. My thinking is that I would be willing to furnish the bees and pay for the various products as they would benefit my bees but I think we might need someone with more of an "academic bent" ideally someone with at least some scientific background to do all the actual measuring and recording. So there ya go hows that for a non-answer?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

My first thought is "Yeah, what Jim said". I will run the idea of this for the California bees by John and Matt, but they are sorta "slap em on and get er done" too. The first trip they basically slap the feed and patties to them, without a lot of time spent evening them out. The finer tuning is done in early January. Because they aren't all starting out even, it would be tough to measure a difference any particular sub makes.
Not sure how many products are being talked about here but I suppose several semi drops would each have the different kinds of patties represented and to minimize drift being much of a factor, the sub would have to be distributed randomly throughout the drop making keeping track just that much more difficult. Not sure the guys would want to take this on but it would be an interesting experiment.
Sheri


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

i wouldn't mind doing it but its harder to tell the results in Fl, as we dont have much of a pollen dearth. i could do a test on which the beetles prefer lol


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Heaflaw, the first step is to ask them what is there protein & fat level of there patty, then go from there, it's a good starting point.


Here's a copy of the ingredients sheet:

Brushy Mountain Premium Pollen Patties
(High protein pollen substitute patties with vitamins, antioxidants and trace minerals, and infused with a feeding
stimulate composed of lemongrass and spearmint essential oil concentrate.)
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein, minimum…..12% Crude Fat, minimum…..8%
Contains no natural pollen-Contains no animal by products
For oral honey bee use only Not for human use Keep out of the reach of children
Feeding directions: No need to remove paper, place one patty on the top bars of each colony. Replace as
needed. Do not feed when honey supers are present.
Ingredients: Plant Protein Products, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Sugar, High Oleic Canola Oil With Dimethylpolysiloxaneian (Anti Foaming Agent), Partially
Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Partially Hydrogenated Psalm Oil With Mono & Diglycerides Added, Lemongrass Oil, Spearmint Oil, Lecithin, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate,
Water, Wheat Flour, Calcium Sulfate, Salt, L-Cysteine, Fungal Protase, Amylase, Sorbic Acid, Potassium Chloride, Soodium Chloride, Niacinamide, Viitamin E
Supplement, Ascorbic Acid Stabilized, Sodium Citrate, D-Calcium Pantotheniic Acid, Vitamin A Suppplenment, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Mendadione Sodium
Bisulfite Coplex, Rivoflavin, Botin Supplement, Vitimin b12 Supplenment, Pyridoxine HCI, Thiamine HCI, Magnesium Sulfate, Folic Acid, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper
Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Calcium Lactate, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Carbonate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide.

Is this good or not?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

heaflaw said:


> Is this good or not?


Here's what I can say, protein should be 17-25% range & fat 5-8% range. After that, look at soluble parts of your sub, are all the parts soluble in the mid gut of the bee? I know, these are tough to answer.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

heaflaw said:


> Brushy Mountain Premium Pollen Patties
> High protein pollen substitute patties Crude Protein, minimum…..12% QUOTE]
> 
> I suppose the word "premium" means different things to different folks.
> ...


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## Johnny (Sep 7, 2007)

BEES4U said:


> Re: caratenoid.
> Hint: What makes a pumpkin yellow orange.


Hey Ernie, Ya I was able to gather that, I guess I should of asked if bees will eat carrots and spinach? Or is that where we can get some "soluble" fats. Or better yet where do you guys get your fats and protein from?  

That being said I think I gave up on making my own sub. It's messy, cant get it right (to runny or to hard) plus god only knows what my protein and fat % is at. havent really made a nice batch to send in to lab. 

Keith did you clone yourself??? :scratch: How do you have time to run a 3000 hive operation and make sub for us?? I give up help! When you heading up this way with a load its about that time for me.

John


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I have a question to ask about pollen feeding. Please understand i am coming at this from a cattle person's prespective.
During certain times of the year, cattle needs are greater or less. Last trimester of pregnancy is the highest point on the cattle food tdn to ensure quality colostrum at calving, keeping condition during the winter, the calf grows the most, and ensuring a good start to post calving conditioning. The next greater need is post calving to ensure the quality and quantity of milk, keeping condition and breed back in a timely fashion. Late cows do not produce as good as calf. During the summer months, grazing is keeping and gaining condition on pasture, and feeding two plus themselves (known as a three in one). Because it is pasture, here is where you want them to put on extra condition because it is not as costly as hay...free sort of. Finally the second trimester of pregnancy is where the needs are the least. The calf has been weaned, condition should have been gained on pasture, and the unborn calfs needs are at the lowest here. Here is the maintenance round.

There is a point please bear with me.

At any one time, nutrition guaged by TDN should be a certain amount. In the second tri for example a cow receiving 12% with majority as high TDN is on a bit of the high end. They will not lose condtion...based on TDN, and will more than likely gain a bit weather permitting. Come the last tri, 14 or so should do it.

Now, if one fed the cow 14% in the second tri, two things will happen. One the cow will over condition, resulting in the opposite of a healthy calf, good colostrum etc and good bred back. Failure will result. Add to it problems calving due to too fat. The second is, it will go out the back end.

One final tibbit here, a heifer weaned to breed time, if she is not fed a good ration, she will not perform in the breeding herd, she will be small, her calves small and by the second calf,if she bred back, will be a cull for this reason. That said, a heifer of the same age, fed to hot, will over condtion, put the flesh on herself, gain a huge bag which is fatty reducing milk production, calf wean weight % to the weight of the cow. In essence she will put the groceries on herself instead of a calf. And by the fourth year of breeding be a culled animal because she is not a good converter of feed to calf wean weight...scientific i know. The same for a cow who is fed too hot of a ration later in life. She will fall prey to this problem as well, tossing out any good genetics with her.

My thought is....Let me be up front, I feed pollen spring and fall and in the summer with hives that need it, especially in poor weather growing conditions. However, i also believe if they can not cut the mustard on good quality foraged pollen, maybe they need to grow wheels ( cow term for culling).

My point, like cows, is there a time when the protien needs are not as high, and we are feeding and over conditioning the bees, and them crapping it out the back end what their bodies do not use? Like cows, $ in the dung because we feed to hot. Which in turn means $ not wisely spent. OR, are we over conditioning them by feeding a feed which is too hot at certain times of the year?
Too add to the questions, will to hot of a ration be hard on the hive, especially at certain times of the year? Are there times in a year where their needs are lower, reducing the protien % woudl be good?

See there was a point to the cows story....


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Folks that will be buying or making there own sub really should take the time to read Ernie's post #26, he explaines why not all ingredents are created equal. Ernie, that was an impressive post.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*The Importance of Pet Food Digestibility and Palatability

Written by Dr. Jill Cline, Ph.D. 
*

The Importance of Pet Food Digestibility and Palatability 
Posted by ccspca on March 20, 2011 at 10:14 AM 


Digestibility determines how much nutrition a food provides in a given volume, while palatability affects how appealing a food is to the animal. Both of these characteristics are important criteria when selecting the best food for your dog or cat.

What are digestibility and bioiavailability and how are they measured? 

A food’s digestibility is the collective proportion of all nutrients in a food that is available to the dog or cat for absorption from the gut (intestine) into the bloodstream. Nutrient bioavailability is the proportion of the absorbed nutrients that are carried to target tissues and are available for use by the body. Because a highly digestible food provides a higher proportion of absorbed nutrients than a less digestible food, digestibility provides one measure of a food’s nutritional value and quality. In general, as the quality of ingredients in the food increases, so will the food’s digestibility and nutrient bioavailability.

Pet food companies measure the digestibility of their products using several tests, most of which include feeding trials. The food is fed to a group of dogs or cats for a selected period of time and the level of undigested matter excreted in the feces is measured and used to calculate nutrient digestibility. Although all reputable manufacturers conduct digestibility tests on their foods, the Association of American Feed Control Officials has not yet established a standard protocol for digestibility studies and does not allow the inclusion of digestibility claims on pet food labels. Commercial foods vary significantly in digestibility and ingredient quality, and so it can be difficult for pet owners to differentiate between super premium, premium and economy products. For example, the labels of two pet foods may have the same ingredient lists and guaranteed analysis panels, but when fed may have substantially different digestibilities (see below).

Total Protein vs. Digestible Protein

The pet food label provides an estimate of a food’s crude protein content on its guaranteed analysis panel. This measure reflects only the total amount of protein and does not indicate differences in protein digestibility between high and low quality protein sources. For example:

Dog Food A contains 21 percent crude protein and is 86.0 % digestible.

Dog Food B contains 23 percent crude protein and is 76.0 % digestible.

Food A: 21g protein/100g diet x 0.86 = 18.1g protein absorbed

Food B: 23g protein/100g diet x 0.76 = 17.5g protein absorbed

Although the crude protein value reported for Dog Food A is lower than that for Dog Food B, Dog Food A’s higher digestibility results in more protein being available to the dog, in a given volume of food.

What factors affect pet food digestibility?

A number of pet food characteristics influence nutrient digestibility. These include:

• Formula: The food’s formula refers to the type and quantity of different ingredients that are included in the product. Because pet food ingredients vary significantly in digestibility, the overall product formula is influenced by the digestibility and nutrient bioavailability of its various ingredients.

• Ingredient Quality: Overall pet food digestibility is increased by the inclusion of high quality ingredients and decreased when poor quality ingredients are included. For example, a pet food’s digestibility is decreased by the presence of poor quality protein, ash, certain types of dietary fiber, and phytate (a component of plant ingredients that decreases the availability of certain essential minerals in the diet).

• Processing: Proper processing techniques, cooking temperatures, and storage procedures support optimal nutrient digestibility and bioavailability. Conversely, digestibility and nutrient bioavailability can be significantly reduced by improper processing or excessive heat treatment. For example, excessive heat damages protein, resulting in decreased digestibility of the protein and reduced bioavailability of certain amino acids. This means that a smaller proportion of the protein is digested and absorbed. Some of the amino acids that are absorbed are also altered in structure (called a “Maillard Reaction” leading to a reduced ability of target tissues to use them efficiently.

What is palatability and how is it measured? 

Palatability refers to perceptions of a food’s taste, smell, and texture. It is an important food characteristic because, simply put, pets must be willing to eat adequate amounts of the food to meet their calorie and nutrient needs. Unpalatable foods will be rejected, regardless of the quality of their ingredients or balance of essential nutrients. Dogs and cats differ somewhat in the food characteristics that they find desirable. Cats are strongly affected by the aroma of a food and will carefully smell a new food before tasting it. Dogs often prefer foods that are high in fat and include protein from animal sources. For both dogs and cats, the texture, size, and shape of food pieces are important; scientists who study palatability refer to this as “mouth feel”. Finally, in addition to animals’ sensory preferences, scientists who study palatability also consider the pet’s environment and the owner’s reactions to different types and flavors of food.

Similar to digestibility, there are a number of ways that pet food companies assess a food’s palatability. Tests that measure the animal’s preference when initially presented with a new food provide information about the immediate appeal of the food’s smell, appearance and texture. Long-term interest is measured using food preference studies. Each dog or cat is offered a choice of two diets that are presented in identical bowls to the left and right. Surplus food is offered in each bowl and the positions of the bowls are switched daily to account for dogs or cats with right- or left-side preferences. The amount of each food that is consumed at each meal is measured over a period of several days. These tests provide information about a food’s acceptability to dogs and cats over time and its relative palatability when compared with other foods. And, finally, the ultimate test of palatability involves presenting the food to pets in homes, where both the pet’s and the owner’s perceptions of the food are considered.

Selecting a Digestible (and Desirable) Food for Your Pet

Some pet food companies provide digestibility data with product literature or through the company’s customer service web site. However, neither digestibility nor palatability is explicitly reported on pet food labels. Here are a few helpful tips for selecting a food that is both highly digestible and palatable for your dog or cat:

• High quality ingredients that are correctly processed produce highly digestible foods. When digestibility information is available, select a food from a reputable manufacturer that has a dry matter digestibility of 80% or greater. Reject maintenance diets that have digestibilities that are lower than 75%.

• A product that is highly digestible will produce normal stool volumes and well formed and firm feces. In addition, the fecal matter will not contain mucous, blood, or any recognizable components of the food.

• Highly digestible foods result in relatively low defecation frequencies, and bowel movements that are regular and consistent. Foods that are not highly digestible may cause excessive gas (flatulence), loose stools, or diarrhea.

• Your dog or cat should readily consume and enjoy the food, in a quantity that promotes normal growth rate and optimal body weight. There should be no need to entice your pet to eat the food by adding treats, table scraps, or other human foods. An excessive quantity of food should not be needed to maintain your pet’s normal body condition.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I understand TDN and what it means. I understand what Bees4U is saying. I get it. I also understand that high TDN and high fibre or rather high undigestable fibre makes the TDN irrelevant because it make the product like the nutrition of straw. I get that. I get feed tested every year so we can ration our cows. I do not always understand the formula, but i then i get our ag reps to interpret the data...its a free service and its what they went to school for and what they get paid to do. Most of these ag reps are seasoned farmers and ranchers, not just schooled in the technical data.

What i am asking is are there times in the year when we do not need so much protien or TDN. Are we over conditioning the bees, making them too fat, and by the same token not as productive. Remember, too fat = low production. Is our need to feed such high concentrates costing us more in unproductive bees or them pooping the excess out? $ not spent wisely
I also understand the nutrition needs are high in the spring. This is to encourage hive growth and this costs energy. So protien should be up, quality should be up, TDN should be good and high fibre should be good quality which can be digested.
But are the nutrition needs as high in the fall when the queen shuts down? Are they as high when they are foraging in the summer months? When the winter comes and they are maintaining just them selves and not brood or foraging, do they need all that pollen in the hives or would syrup be more what they need to provide clean energy in the heart of the winter? If we are to get the needed high protien pollen on early in the spring, would feeding heavy pollen in the fall be necessary. Could the protien level be lower still allowing them to put the fat on but not large amounts of fat. When you answer, remember, I am in Canada. Cleansing flights are not always possible all the time. Some times they go weeks on end without cleansing.
I understand the concepts of TDN (total digestable nutrients) and protien, crude protien crude fat, and how high and low moister plays a part in the digestable nutrition. I also understand that Vitamins like A, D and E break down in light and have a short shelf life. Selenium is necessary for good reproduction and breed back. Good iron and copper levels play a huge role in cattle health relieving some disease stressors.
My questions earlier were not based because i did not read post 26 or not understand it. It was from a business perspective of seeing a need for pollen patties, seeing the cost for pollen patties, but wondering are we wisely spending our money feeding such hot feeds all the time during the feeding season. Would a lighter feed be more relevant in the fall and pick up the pace in the early spring for breeding when the needs are greater?

Just because they eat it or store it in the fall, does that mean they "need" it. Alot of animals eat it because it is there and they like the taste of it. Then the farmer is wondering why they are not producing like they should cause the BCS is too high or on the other end of the scale too low (BCS = body condition score)


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Reading Bees4U post, and noting on the poop of dogs and cats, same can be said of cows. When the feed tests have not come back yet, the poop tells the story,
A poop pattie which mounds, dry, fiberous, is high TDN but also high undigestable fibre. This type of poop you can pick up with your hand...gloved preferably and throw it and it holds its form. This type of poop means the cows are eating and getting nothing out of it
A poop pattie which is runny and shoots out the back end and you are glad you are not behind the cow when she lets fly shows a feed ration which is too hot. NO matter how you pick it up, you can not. It is too watery. Too high in protien not enough fibre.
A poop pattie which is round, flat, somewhat solid but somewhat watery, when the final plop spits out a single drop spray, it is perfect. To pick it up you need a fork with some straw. It shows they are getting the needs of protien, fat, the TDN is good.

Now for some bee poop.
In our honey house we had some bees in the hot room. We also had this white fridge hubby was fixing. the bees took a liking to the fridge. This white fridge was no longer white in a couple of weeks. The poop on the fridge gave a wealth of information. Some of it was long and stringy, the appearance of possilby being runny. Thin. Some was in shorter chunks, some what thicker. And some was for lack of a better term, blobby. Heavy like.
I do not have enough hobbies....i examine our animals poop to find out what they need or do not need.

Poop is a poor mans nutrition test!


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Friday, September 02, 2011
honeyshack,
This may help to answer your question about honeybee nutritional needs.
I will use this beef cattle nutitional information:
http://www.aces.edu/department/aawm/anr-60.pdf
Example. Assume that a group of cows
should weigh 1,200 pounds at a body condition
score of 5. This herd is within 60 to 70
days of the beginning of the calving season,
and they have an average condition score of 4.
The herd records indicate that the average 205-
day weight for the male calves is approximately
560 pounds. From Table 5, we determine
that the cows will consume
approximately 24 pounds of dry matter per
day and that they require 52.3 percent TDN
and 7.7 percent CP. Because we want to push
these cows from a condition score 4 to a score
of 5 in the 60 days before calving, we need to
provide an additional 2.6 pounds of TDN per
day. Based on the above requirements the
cows need 12.55 pounds of TDN (24 x .523)
plus the additional 2.6 for a total of 15.15
pounds per day. As a percentage, this group of
cows would require 63.1 percent TDN during
this initial 30 days of the 60-day precalving
time period.
The above information is provided for an adjustment in the nutrition for cattle which is not very different from honeybees going into winter!
Therefor, you want your pollen supplement to be high in nutrition in mid to late summer because you have a target date of 60 days to get the bees fed up to their level, #5, for wintering.
You goal is to get your herd of bees up to a score of 5 because scores below that will cause unneeded stress which results in colony failure.
You can use the same information for spring management.
If you knew the pollen anaysis between spring and fall you could make adjustments to your pollen sublement formulations.


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