# Inspector's authority over using unapproved chemicals/pesticides???



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I'm curious about something...

Please don't start a debate here regarding chemicals/pesticides by my question....

There are several folks that speak of using roach bait (fipronil) in shb traps within the confines of the hive. When a state inspector drops by to do an inspection and sees fipronil baited traps in the hive...what course of action does he/she take? Do they do nothing? Simply note it in the report? Give you a warning to discontinue it's use? Agrees that something has to be done about shb and looks the other way? Tases you on the spot?

What should be the correct (legal) outcome of such a finding by an inspector?

???
Ed


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

The inspector will probably only give a warning. It is in their authority to enforce the federal and state law. 
634.372 Prohibited acts. A person may not:
(2) As a pesticide applicator or operator, intentionally or willfully apply or use a worthless pesticide or any pesticide inconsistent with its labeling, or as a pesticide consultant or dealer, recommend or distribute such pesticides.
(4) Perform pesticide application activities in a faulty, careless or negligent manner.
Fines are normally $400 to $5000 depending on the severity of negligence. In pesticide use "the label is the law" If it says it must be applied at 42 percent humidity, on a windless day, or only for the control of aphids on oak trees, any other application is a violation.
I doubt many inspectors want the paperwork or court time, unless their job is on the line or their chain of command says they need to generate revenue.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

You would think they would go after the guys making the how to you tube videos first.
There are a couple videos on how to apply unapproved stuff.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks AB for the info above. I'm not bashing or supporting the folks using these things, but was curious as to what kind of unwanted attention they could be attracting to themselves by publicly speaking of the off label uses.

It's needless to say that I am concerned with is the advancement of shb. I hope somebody comes up with a successful and low impact way to deal with them. Seems I'm getting into beekeeping when a most formidable foe is kicking in the door. I'm afraid that the genes of the feral colonies will be the first to be lost...leaving the domestic colonies to be fought for. Could it get so bad that we have to resort to off label use? I'd rather my grand children have good pure honey... 

Ed


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Intheswamp said:


> What should be the correct (legal) outcome of such a finding by an inspector?
> 
> ???
> Ed


I suggest that you obtain, rad and familiarize yourself w/ your own State Bee Laws.

As an Inspector of 20 seasons in NY I ran across a number of different things in bee hives.

Sometimes Apistan strips were left in hives all year round. Sometimes a number of them. Not the Label recommendation.

Another time, someone Acebird knows, had 3 or 4 treatment materials in a hive at the same time, during the nectar flow part of the year.

As an Inspector, my job was to Identify and Regulate Diseases and Pests of Honeybees. Nowhere in NYS Bee Laws does it say anything about Honeybee Pest Control Misuse or Honey Quality. Not my job. None of my business. That's what the Plant Industry Director told me when I mentioned it to him. Apiary Inspection is under the Plant Industry Division of NYS Dept. of Ag&Mkts.

So Ed, unless they handle things differently where you live, it's none of their business what you have in your hives. Only the bees, their health and anything which may effect the health of other colonies.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> The inspector will probably only give a warning. It is in their authority to enforce the federal and state law.


State Apiary Inspectors don't enforce Federal Laws.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mbeck said:


> You would think they


They who?


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> They who?


I guess that's the question.

It's a tough question to ask. No one wants to ask " Will you arrest and or fine me if you catch me treating my hives off label?"


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I will tell you that no Apiary Inspector in the Nation has the Authority to arrest anyone. Unless that individual person is also a Policeman.

Threats of fines against beekeepers for refusal to comply w/ Orders from Commissioners of Agriculture hardly ever, perhaps never, actually result in a beekeeper paying a fine. Not to my knowledge. Judges have better more important cases to hear. 

That is why I always thought Non-Compliance w/ AFB Abatement Orders should have been handled on a Magistrate Level in NY, just like Speeding Tickets and Fishing/Hunting Infraction Tickets. But, that never happened and never will.


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> State Apiary Inspectors don't enforce Federal Laws.


Hi Sqkcrk but are there regulations that can be loosley defined by inspectors? I am familar with federal inspectors ( not bees). One will have one pet peive another, something else, and they all seemed to interpret thier jobs, and limitations differently. Granted right now those with the job as inspectors in the bee feild, may not want to go there, or be experinced enough to know what is rediclous? 
But what if some new gun hoe youngsters come about maybe with thier own personal agendas. Maybe they are a only into all natural, and interpret laws where as bee keepers are paying hefty fines?
Ever hear of the rabbit breeder who got fined nealry 100K because he sold over 500 dollars worth of pet rabbits to a retail dealer without a USDA lcienses unknownly.( note meat rabbits are not regulated like pet rabbits) Poor guy a kids hobby got a little bigger then expected. What he did sell that year was under 5k and they slapped a 90k plus fine on him. If it did not get national coverage, I am pretty sure they would have ruined that mans life. So what if? Is it possible in the bee industry? if lets say a bunch of anti treatement people got in as inspectors?


Dont think it is not possible ? The new head of the USDA enforcement team for APHIS did work for the HSUS before she got the job. 

It is happening to other ag industries.. and now that it is becoming public about CCD and many are blaming it on certain keeping practices. It does not take much to emotionaly charge the public into voting in crazy regulations.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

beeG said:


> It does not take much to emotionaly charge the public into voting in crazy regulations.


I'll definitely second that.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeG said:


> Hi Sqkcrk but are there regulations that can be loosley defined by inspectors? I am familar with federal inspectors ( not bees).
> 
> So what if? Is it possible in the bee industry? if lets say a bunch of anti treatement people got in as inspectors?
> 
> ...


State Apairy Inspectors work for Directors who gety their job by being promoted by Commissioners who get their jobs by appointment by Governerts. So, a State Inspector can't do anything their Director won't back them on. Which, because of the way the system works depends on support of those being regulated. 

In NY the Apiary Inspection Program is 2.5 Inspectors who are supposed to Inspector Commercial Beekeepers to issue Health Certificates. The purpose of trhe program isn't to control or irradicate AFB, but only tro certify colony health for Interstate Transport purposes. Nosema perhaps, but especially Varroa mites have killed more colonies in the last 10 yeras than AFB ever has. But, those pests/diseases aren't being regulated. And neither are off label use of miticides. Miticides not even labeled for use against Varroa. Such as Amitraz. And Formic acid. No one even cares what you put in your hives.

And then there is The Law. If the Lawyers in the Dept. are concerned about being taken to Court, having the Law challenged, then they have to weigh the costs and the benfits. Is it worth it? And is the Program going to get support from those being Regulated? If not, unless the Law demands so, Inspectors won't touch anything except what the Law demands regulation of.

As far as Federal Apiary Inspectors, I have no knowledge of or experience w/ them. Do you? Or are you refering to other areas of Inspection? APHIS doesn't regulate what goes on in anyones beehives do they?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeG said:


> Dont think it is not possible ? The new head of the USDA enforcement team for APHIS did work for the HSUS before she got the job.
> 
> It is happening to other ag industries.. and now that it is becoming public about CCD and many are blaming it on certain keeping practices. It does not take much to emotionaly charge the public into voting in crazy regulations.


HSUS? What's that?

Do you know how hard it is to get Regulations and Laws inacted? Case in point the Standard of Identity of Honey.

You may be correct and right to be afraid. I am speaking from experience and directive received when I asked what I shoulkd do when I fouind some pretty strange stuff in peoples beehives. 

If an Apiary Inspector in NY comes to inspect my beehives in June and comes across 6 Apistan Strips, 4 CheckMite Strips, a Formic Acid soaked shop towel, a SHB trap w/ something other than normal, an in hive feeder full of corn syrup w/ fumidill b and etc. there is nothing that they are authorized to do. They, on their own, may advise me to do otherwise. But, they can't make me. Under the Law.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

HSUS is the " humane society of the United States". They are the hard line group to PETA. HSUS has campaign drives to save dogs, cats some wildlife....sponsor a pet. However most of the money got from sponsors rarely make it to the animal shelters but rather to the lobby groups to lobby governments and activists against most animal agriculture. They have fought long and hard and the end game goal is to see cattle, sheep, goats, bees, etc put out of business. They support the vegan way of life.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

*Alabama bee laws*

Mark, I've read through the Alabama honey bee "laws" and see nothing specifically regarding pesticide use. Medications are only spoken of only in terms of being told to use them to treat diseases. Nothing saying anything about prohibiting the use of any substance. Inspectors appear to be limited to provisions included in Title 2, Chapter 14...which doesn't look *to me* to be a lot of rules/laws for the hobbyist to fret over...basically register your hives, have movable frames, and be prepared to deal with any diseases that pop up. Moving up to sideliner or commercial size things may get a bit contorted in regards to the comb law...I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one.

http://statutes.laws.com/alabama/Title2/Chapter14

Ed


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: Alabama bee laws*

when the Adee's got caught using illeagal pesticides in there hives who caught them??


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Alabama bee laws*

Good question. Not sure. How were they caught? By what was in the honey? That could probably be where the trail started. California may have different Laws than NY or other States.


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> As far as Federal Apiary Inspectors, I have no knowledge of or experience w/ them. Do you? Or are you refering to other areas of Inspection? APHIS doesn't regulate what goes on in anyones beehives do they?


APHIS 
Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) is an agency of the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) responsible for protecting animal health, animal welfare, and plant health. APHIS is the lead agency for collaboration with other agencies to protect U.S. agriculture from invasive pests and diseases. APHIS is the National Plant Protection Authority for the U.S. government, and the agency's head of veterinary services is Chief Veterinary Officer of the United States.

APHIS was created in 1972 by Secretary’s Memorandum No. 1762.

The origins of the agency predate creation of USDA, to 1854 when the Office of Entomologist, Agricultural Section, U.S. Patent Office was created. It was the first of three agencies that eventually were merged to form APHIS

The originally stated purpose of APHIS is to “protect the animal and plant resources of the nation” and carry out “a poultry and meat inspection program.”[3] A more modern articulation of APHIS’s mission is “protecting and promoting U.S. agricultural health, regulating genetically engineered organisms, administering the Animal Welfare Act and carrying out wildlife damage management activities.”[4]

APHIS aims to protect American animals, plants, and the agricultural industry by offering:

Protection from invasive non-native plants, animals, insects, and diseases
Monitoring and management of existing agricultural pests and diseases
Resolution and management of trade issues related to animal or plant health
Prevention or cessation of the inhumane treatment (of animals)
The threats and challenges within APHIS' scope include:

Non-compliant biotech events
Invasive species
Agricultural animal/plant health threats
Agricultural bioterrorism
Sanitary and phytosanitary trade barriers
Wildlife conflicts and diseases
Zoonotic diseases
Animal welfare issues


And believe me .. You guys do not want the APHIS inspectors. Most are Animal Rights activist . Very few of them have any real knowledge. The ones that are not AR influenced, become indoctrinated pretty quickly, because that is what is running APHIS these days. The older inspectors have been replaced by those motivated by the Animal rights agenda. 
Very few real inspectors left. Especially since Obama, it got much, much worse. They did an Audit of themselves, which was horrendous ,and of course the bottom line of the APHIS Audit was more regulation and higher fine fees.
The whole study reads like science fiction. labeling the whole by its absolute worse examples. And showing zero acknowledgements of those who do it well. which now any APHIS regulated industry fine fee starts at $10,000.00 When a lot of the smaller businesses inspected under those license are lucky to net $10,0000.00 in a year. 

Being a part of it and inspected by those crazy people. Makes one feel like it must have felt being ruled by a mad dictator. Or fingered by one of Hilters youth group. 
Those left being inspected by them live very paranoid lives. One of the most famous right ups that sent many ,including myself running ,was not being home for the surprise inspection. Which left those who bordered hobby, but were big enough to require a license, but had real jobs on the side, to run for the hills.
I know one APHIS licensed individual who had loans and could not get out.
She was held hostage in her home for 3 months awaiting her surprise inspection. She even feared taking her own children to doctors appointments. She would call and leave messages for the inspector stating I have to take my child to the doctor so please note this I will be gone from this time to this time so in case you plan to inspect me.
She could not afford the $10,000 fine she would receive for missing one more inspection. The stress of it all caused her and her husband to divorce. She ended up deciding to live with bad credit instead of fear. It destroyed a family. 

First offence you get a certified letter, second offence is a $10,000.00 fine for each offence. The only people left in that industry are stuck there by loans for buildings and equipment. They are also demonized by the Animal rights activist. So much so that a pedophile has a higher value on the social scale. 
Right now the animal rights activist are attacking the larger farmers. Using descriptions such as factory farming. And many jump that band wagon believing they are being nearly poisoned by what they call greedy factory farming companies. When in fact those "greedy" companies supply many jobs, and generate money for research, for bettering their industry, not to mention feed the majority of our nation, and others nations affordable food. Hobby companies do not generate funds for research, like commercial entities do. 

From what I saw with APHIS a group regulating a small minority that are in those industries because they are not what you say a collective group of people persons. That have no voice. That did nothing when the attacks first started. That now live a life no American ever would assume was possible in this Nation. One over regulated by the American Government Where hearsay, and emotions control reality. Where truth is ignored, and real study has no place. Because that industry is too poor to jusify doing any real studies for. Yet their product is the foundation of a multi billion dollar industry within this nation .
Our elected officials seem to always sway the way the wind blows, and many of them are even voting against normally party ethics. to support these popular beliefs . The HSUS and friends did a great job of controlling popular belief. In these times it does not take much to rally Americans into wanting more regulations on our food and pets.
Even people on this forum have been effected by controlled beliefs. How many of you blame CCD on treatments, and or beeks who use non natural products? How many of you have real scientific study, from real scientist, beyond what you read on the Internet. Behind your beliefs? How many of you believe factory farmed chicken is riddled with hormones? How many of you believe factory farmed beef is raised in buildings on corn? How many of you believe all puppies sold in pet stores come from Puppy Mills? 

Big brother was late or did it really begin in 1984?


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

I worked in Resource and Conservation Law Enforcement in the state of Maryland, which is to say I had the authority/charged with enforcing laws and regulations. Our focus was Hunting, boating, fishing, and the commercial fisheries. At times, we would have a Forest Ranger, bring us a case involving an illegal burning or such. They did not have the authority to enforce a violation. Now, did the Forest Rangers go out looking for Harry Homeowner who was burning a brush pile at an illegal time? No. But, if Harry Homeowners' fire, blew over and burned his neighbors' woods, shed, or other property, then Harry Homeowner was legally held responsible for the damage. 
I also worked with the Federal Fish a Game Officers in much the same manner. I would bring them a case to prosecute on a Federal level if need be. 
My opinion would be violations of beekeeping laws would/ could be handled in the same/similar manner. The laws or regulations associated with pesticide use in hives, in my opinion, are tools to assign legal liability, and deal with gross violations/negligence. If someone becomes ill from honey and it is proved to have come from your hives, and proved you mis used the pesticide, I would think you legally blond, I mean liable.
Could it happen? IMO yes. But, a lot of issues would have to be resolved. There has to be a case, evidence, more than a suspicion that a violation has occurred. Lab tests. Someone with authority has to do a charging document. If one got that far, doesn't mean it gets to court necessarily. ALL my cases were reviewed by the States Attorney. They can dismiss a case with little reason. (or so it seemed) Never happened to me, but I have seen it happen. So, even a gung ho newbie with or with out authority has to get a few people on board to make it happen. Even then, it doesn't presume a guilty verdict. One would like to believe that amount energy and resources should be reserved for a violation that deserves it. 
Just my opinion and observations in my neck of the woods. My suggestion: be responsible in treating your hives if you do so.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

It all boils down money and the ability to enforce. There are plenty of federal agencies that are responsible for any number of regulations; however, they have little or no enforcement budget, so nothing will get done in most cases. And like Rick said above, there is a whole lot of work involved in investigation and prosecution (aside from being broke, most agencies suffer from a chronic lack of sufficient work force). That's why I dont worry when I mix twice as Roundup in my spray tank than the directions indicate.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Now Nabber. There you go again. See yer tag line. Be careful. Somebody's gonna get hurt.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Just noticed your tagline Mark. Very nice. Thanks for that. 

Mark is correct about the limitations of inspectors... they are there to inspect for sick colonies, not to inspect your management methods to see if you are doing things "right"...

I have had inspectors comment about my father's use of his own treatment mixtures..."he was using stuff that kills bees"... if that were true, why didn't his bees ever die? Instead, he was making three increases per season after shaking a three lb package from each colony twice in spring... 

The point is that there are companies that have gone through the trouble and expense of getting "approval" to sell their brands for use in bee hives... but the reality is that the only two differences between the approved brands and their active ingredient counterparts are 1. Price... that "approval" has to be paid for, and the approved brand us usually 3-12 times the cost of the counterpart... 2. The approved brand usually has a higher level of active ingredient...

Gaurdstar (40% permethrin) brand for example cost $28.00 for a 4oz bottle... while other brands of 38% permethrin average $12.35 per quart...

There is indeed a need for this industry to address the pest control market and open the doors to more competition by showing the USDA that the cost of approval of bee keeping products is too high and thus limiting the industry by causing us to pay more for the approval than we do for the products. None of the formulations are new to the agriculture industry... they just have different uses on their labels...

That said, I am not saying that anyone should or should not use any brand that has not specifically sought approval for honey bee uses... and you should never allow any treatment to be on during honey production...

One thing to keep in mind though is that while you may catch criticism for using off-label methods, you Will get serious trouble if your hives become breeding grounds for pests and diseases until they die out, then they become the problem of everyone around you (including ferals and native pollenaters)...

Common sense is a requirement to keeping bees... and failure to have it should be punishable by a fine, imo. Lol. Part of that means seeking and listening to the advice of those with more experience than you and sticking to proven methods at least until you have the experience necessary to identify and understand the results of your own experimentation.

And beeg, I am afraid that you are absolutely correct about aphis... they have been pushing further and further over the feet of this industry each year and acquiring more and more control... it may end up being a jump-ship situation in the long run...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Yes Mark, I think that Richard's issue was that the hives were in the middle of honey production at the time that they were being treated and although the treatment that they were using was softer than the approved version, it should not have been in the hives during honey production.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And who was inspecting them? State? Federal? As an Inspector I found stuff in hives during nectar flows which, by label recommendations/instructions, shouldn't have been there either. Yet they were and I was told to keep my mouth shut and leave the beekeeper alone. Which I did, of course.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

It was not one inspector, or even department... but more so a "common knowledge" across several departments that finally reached someone with enough power and a conflicting business interest...

That wasnt an inspection related event... it was several years of a few competitors and political opponents waiting on their chance... when it was all said and done, if was aphis leading the state and they inspected specifically for that one goal...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, what do you expect when you are that big? No one should have been surprised, should they?

I am not excusing or recommending the use of pesticides during nectar flows, but, in agriculture and other businesses I imagine, things get done when you can, not when you want to, the optimum or correct time or date.

I was helping a friend put bees into an orchard one time and was surprised to see tree pruning being done while the orchard was in full bloom. It didn't seem like the right time to me. But, it illustrated that things get done when you can, not when you want to. I don't know anyone who actually inspects hives in the rain, but I bet alot of supers get put on when rain is falling.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

That's exactly right... you know what they say, "the largest target catches all the bullets"...

Richard just stands out because of the size of the operation... the big guy "gets" enemies without ever meeting them... he doesn't have to "make" them, they come to him...


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Well, three pages later I've come to the conclusion that the bee inspectors are actually there to help you if you need it and to be sure the bees are healthy. It's the guys in the black helicopters that'll get you! 

Ed


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Intheswamp said:


> bee inspectors are actually there to help you if you need it and to be sure the bees are healthy.
> 
> Ed


Well, I guess that could be true in some States, but we weren't encouraged to help beekeepers keep their colonies healthy. We were discouraged from giving advice on addressing health matters, except AFB. If we found AFB, we made sure the owner burned it. Otherwise, other than checking and reporting mite levels, we weren't supposed to suggest any course of action.

If we could keep the levels of AFB low, we would help you by keeping your neighbors clean.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Just curious, have there been cases of people becoming ill from pesticide contaminated honey?


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Hmm, I'll be meeting the area inspector in the next month or so...I may just ask him point blank what his duties are. The details of his responsibilities are lightly touched on in the laws here in Alabama.

Ed


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Always a good idea.


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