# What are the best size/gauge of staples and nails to use when building boxes/frames?



## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

We are presently building hundreds of bee boxes, covers, SSB's, bee hive stands, and thousands of the frames.

I am trying to figure out what are the best size/gauge of staples and nails to use when building boxes/frames.

I recently was able to find a super deal on over 30,000 of the 15 gauge 2.25 inch nails. They were a fraction of the normal cost so I scooped them right up.

So here are my specific questions:

1. What do most beekeepers use to assemble the 10 frame deep Langstroth boxes?

2. What do most beekeepers use to assemble the 9 inch deep frames?

3. What do most beekeepers use to assemble the migratory covers?

4. Is anyone using all nails with no staples?

5. Are nails strong enough to use rather than staples?

We have been using Titebond 3 glue and the 15g 2.25" nails for the boxes and 18g 1.25" staples for the 9" frames. BUT the staples are quite expensive and we would like to switch to all nails if it does not compromise the strength of the boxes and frames.

Please help us out if you can. We would like to do it right the first time and not have regrets later on down the line...


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

You will get all type of answers. For finger boxes I use 7/16 wide staples 1-1/2 or longer. Frames I run 1/4 wide crown staples 1 to 1-1/2 long. Air all the way. I do sometime cross nail frame but it because I own a nailer.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

I glue all woodenware with tb3. 

For boxes I use the nails Kelley's includes. For frames I use 1.5" 18ga staples for the top bar and 5/8 to 1"" for bottom bar. 4 staples per frame. 

The nails included with frames work fine. I just prefer stapling because it goes quicker. If you glue it will hold.

Big boxes of staples are pretty cheap. I think I payed like $13 for 2500. That's enough to do 600 frames. $.02 a frame.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

So, are you guys recommending staples rather than the nails?


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Try this place; https://www.fastenerusa.com/staples...x5035-series-18-gauge-7-32-crown-staples/?p=1

Alex


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Also, I think the only advantage to TBIII over TBII is working time.

Alex


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

The short answer is yes. Why faster to use. Than hand nailing. If you are using air to nail different story. I have all most every type of gun and would still use staples.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

I glue and staple frames. I've assembled around a 800 frames. If they fail it's typically because the top bar has a split or crack near the frame rest or side bar splits. I wouldn't go back nailing frames by hand unless my gun stopped working.

For boxes I use glue and the nails included because I don't have a framing or finish nailer. The 1.5" 18ga staples do not pull and hold the boxes together adequately bc some box panels will be warped and staples don't have enough bite to close the gap. If box panels are perfectly flat then staples can be aqequate I guess.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I've found that it really doesn't matter what nail or staple you use as the nail/staple is only there to hold the wood together until the glue dries. Then the glue is what holds it all together. That said, if you don't do an adequate job of gluing, the nail/staple helps to hold it ........


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

snl said:


> I've found that it really doesn't matter what nail or staple you use as the nail/staple is only there to hold the wood together until the glue dries. Then the glue is what holds it all together. That said, if you don't do an adequate job of gluing, the nail/staple helps to hold it ........


Does this hold true with both boxes and frames snl?

I do a fantastic job of gluing...just wondering if spinning the frames might place extra stress on the frames and if the staple would work better...


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## johnny2 (Feb 6, 2017)

i use tb111 and 8d nails and push them in with an air palm nailer, I also skip the bottom nail on the short box joint because it blows out often. I build a few hundred mediums and deeps every winter. frames are a touchy problem with most of the fast growth wood today and I have gone plastic, the frames split and tear out too easy, lots of glue isnt much help the wood is just too soft. even with a deboxer i had frames that broke when separated for the decaper


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## FunnyBugBees (Feb 19, 2017)

AHudd said:


> Also, I think the only advantage to TBIII over TBII is working time.
> 
> Alex


Well thats not the main advantage. Titebond III is waterproof, and titebond II is only water resistant.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Here's a follow up question:

If I assemble a frame with glue, can I wait until the next day to nail it in place with a nail gun? 

Or will the nail gun crack the wood/glue after it's dried and destroy the frame?


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## scottgoering (Oct 3, 2019)

username00101 said:


> Here's a follow up question:
> 
> If I assemble a frame with glue, can I wait until the next day to nail it in place with a nail gun?
> 
> Or will the nail gun crack the wood/glue after it's dried and destroy the frame?



Based on what snl said above (which I agree with):


> I've found that it really doesn't matter what nail or staple you use as the nail/staple is only there to hold the wood together until the glue dries. Then the glue is what holds it all together. That said, if you don't do an adequate job of gluing, the nail/staple helps to hold it ........


If you can assemble the frame and wait for the glue to dry before adding a nail? Modern wood glue is a much stronger fastener than the nails/staples used to pin the parts together.


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## SmokeyHill (Feb 6, 2018)

I use 1/4"x1" air staples in frames and 1.5" 16 guage finish air nails in the boxes. I use TB2 for everything. TB3 has no advantage over TB2 because the joints are never exposed to continuous submersion. Nail/staple everything while the glue is wet, that keeps the joint tight while the glue dries. Paint the exterior exposed surfaces after the glue is dry. Use better quality wood, avoiding knots as much as possible. Even tight knots can cause cracking if they are in the wrong place, ie, near/in a nailing surface. Avoid the big box stores if possible. I get much better pricing from local lumber yards, especially after I tell them what I'm using the wood for. 
I build all of my own equipment from scratch and have never had a joint failure.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

If you prefer staples, I use a Senco 3/8 crown stapler with 1 1/2 inch adhesive coated staples, this stapler is really nice for build frames with the same staple too. If you prefer nails I use a Max nailer with #7 twisted adhesive coated nails. 

My preference over time has evolved to using deck screws & Titebond III. Good quality deck screws do not rust easily over time and hold the box together much tighter. In the event the box does get a bit loose and sloppy, a deck screw can be tightened. I predrill the holes with a 1/8 drill bit and use a Senco Screw Gun to put a #9 1 1/2 inch deck screw in the joints. 

I wax dip my boxes and other woodware when assembled. Lasts much better over time and resists water well.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

username00101 said:


> Here's a follow up question:
> 
> If I assemble a frame with glue, can I wait until the next day to nail it in place with a nail gun?
> 
> Or will the nail gun crack the wood/glue after it's dried and destroy the frame?


It would be better to nail as soon as you glue. The nail or staple pulls the pieces together where they should be. Tamps down minor bumps and roughness then the glue does its job undisturbed.

I think people prying up on the top bar when the bottom of the frame is stuck to the ones in the lower box or to its neighbor. I have watched video of people with frame grabbers _twisting_ away and tugging at the top bar when it is the sidebars that are stuck. Far worse than even a straight up pull on the topbar.

It takes a few extra seconds to get the sharp end of your hive tool between the frame shoulders and push sideways to break things loose before you haul up on the topbar.

Gluing is not a symbolic gesture! I put glue on both top bar and the notch of the sidebar; *All* glue surfaces; count them, there are 17 surfaces at each top corner. Fewer at the bottom.

I doubt extracting pulls apart any joints that have not been badly loosened by prying (unless rotted). No extractor exerts enough G force to do that. If a frame is not in the stops properly, different game.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

For Deeps, 7 penny box Maze double dipped galvanized nails. No Glue. They should last until 2090. We still have some in service from the 1940's.

Crazy Roland


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