# what killed my bees?



## Bolerpuller (May 4, 2008)

I'm new to bee keeping (3rd year). I had a hive that didn't make it through the winter and as it was a new swarm I had caught I just assumed it starved (I had a swarm starve the year before). However when I pulled it apart yesterday I found honey in it. I took some pictures as I honestly don't really know what I'm looking at. Any guesses?

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/bolerpullers/DSCF0001.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/bolerpullers/DSCF0002.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/bolerpullers/DSCF0003.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/bolerpullers/DSCF0004.jpg


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Was there any brood left from last fall? Do you have a picture of it?

It looks like they had a moisture problem. What was their condition in the fall? Strong? Was it a late swarm?

Maybe they never built up enough to prepare their winter broodnest, and had a moisture problem. I'd say the bees died early, and the moisture caused mold to grow on the combs, and in the stored pollen.


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## Bolerpuller (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the reply; I don't have anyone around who I can ask. I learned what I know from a book and ordered the bees over the internet.
The first picture is of the frames from the brood chamber. I caught this swarm in '06 and it was very strong as it didn't swarm itself last year. I did have a problem with wasps late in the season, but this hive was the strongest of the 2 (now 1). I did treat for mites in the spring but I've never seen a "Bee Disease" fist hand.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

bolerpuller... I think michael palmer is suggesting that you had ice accumulation (from resperation) above the bees winter cluster, this melted and thereby froze the bees fairly early in the season. so he is not (I think???) really suggesting a disease.

I don't experience this problem here (Texas) but I would think michael palmer (or any number of the north bee keeper) can give you numerous tips on how to prevent (or at least minimize) this problem.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

How did you treat for mites and how are your hives configured to keep moisture issues from developing - especially considering the climate and meteorology of your local area. I once kept bees in Oak Harbor, Washington.


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## Bolerpuller (May 4, 2008)

Thanks again for the replies. I didn’t do anything to prevent moisture….. didn’t know I needed to, but we do get much more than our share of rain here. I’d welcome any info on increasing ventilation? 
I’ve been treating with Apistan strips in the spring and using a sticky board on the bottom.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Almost all cells are empty. How much sugar did you feed your bees last August to survive the winter? 
Mold grows not from on day to the next, your colony probably died a few months ago. Is there any reason why you didn’t treat against mites in late summer to get healthy winter bees? 
How strong was the colony when you put the strips in?

Next time put a penny on each corner from your cover and you will have less moisture in your hive.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Of course I'm not in Oak Harbor anymore, I'm in Tucson, Arizona, where it hasn't rained yet this year. Even here where the daytime humidity, this time of year, is 5% and highs in the 90's F, I find using a screened bottom board (for bottom input of air), beneath a slatted rack (for the bees to cluster on and moderate the air flow), these things, combined with multiple upper entrances and an absence of lower entrances (predators, including various reptiles and nocturnal amphibians love to eat bees they can reach) has been a great help to the productivity of my colonies.

If I were still in the Pacific Northwest I would cut a large rectangular opening in the center of the bottom board, then staple a piece of #8 hardware cloth over it - elevate the bottom so air can readily flow to the underside of the bottom board. Seal off the lower entrance to a single bee-size opening while at the same time provide generous upper, top entrances, or both. Perhaps add a cap to the hive that extends over the upper entrances to help prevent rain from reversing the beneficial convection drafting this creates. 

This is even more critical in Winter, when the bees metabolize honey, with lots of water as a byproduct, this water can cause trouble when it condenses inside the hive and drops onto the clustering bees.

You probably know these things already, but I thought I'd mention them in case any beginners happen to read this thread, too.

I certainly wish I had tried some of these ideas back when I was still keeping bees in Oak Harbor.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

tecumseh said:


> so he is not (I think???) really suggesting a disease.


That's right. I'm not suggesting disease. I wanted to know if there was any dead brood left. By examining the dead brood, you can tell much. For instance...did Varroa kill the hive. If so, you would find a bit of brood left from last fall. On another thread...can't find it...I posted photos of a deadout caused by Varroa.

The colony in question may have just failed...qless, or some other reason. The mold was caused by poor ventilation. You need a wide open bottom entrance...SBB? Also an upper entrance cut from the rim of the inner cover, and inner cover insulation.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I always want to know what the brood pattern looked like last September and October. The brood raised last fall are the bees that carry the hive through till early spring. Too many people see lots of bees in September and think it looks fine. But these older field bees quickly die, leaving the colony with too few bees to make it and they dwindle to the point the just freeze out.

From the picture (from what I see), the only honey of good proportion seems to be the end frame. The little other spots are well short of what would of been needed. It appears that possibly the bees had little fall nectar (And little brood?) or the hive was not fed enough (and little brood stimulation).

Just something to consider.


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## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> You need a wide open bottom entrance...SBB? Also an upper entrance cut from the rim of the inner cover, and inner cover insulation.


Michael-

When you reference the "wide open bottom entrance" are you suggesting no entrance reducer?


Do you have a picture of the inner cover you're describing?

What do you use for inner cover insulation?

Do you wrap your hives? Mine are a dark blue, so I don't usually but I'm considering it this year. Thanks for your help....


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## simplyhoney (Sep 14, 2004)

Best guess from pictures assuming the bees were disease free in the fall......long extended cold spell with improper ventalation. Bet it sure smell good when you opened it.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

hummingberd said:


> Michael-
> 
> When you reference the "wide open bottom entrance" are you suggesting no entrance reducer?
> 
> ...


Right. No entrance reducer. The bees don't need it. They do need the extra ventilation. For mouse protection, I use 1/2" hardware cloth, folded into a wedge.

My inner covers are plain old inners. I close the escape hole with duct tape. The rim is down, and entrance notch is in the front of the hive. 1 1/2 or 2" foam insulation on top of the inner. Scrape off all burr, so foam sits directly on inner cover.

I do wrap. Somewhat for wind protection, but mostly for solar gain.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> "...My inner covers are plain old inners. I close the escape hole with duct tape. The rim is down, and entrance notch is in the front of the hive. 1 1/2 or 2" foam insulation on top of the inner. Scrape off all burr, so foam sits directly on inner cover.


Like Hummingbird asked "Do you have a picture of the inner cover you're describing?" I would like to see it as well.


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## moonlightbeekeeper (Jul 4, 2007)

*dead bees*

not seeing any bees makes me wonder if they didnt freeze and not starve. if you found bees clustered around a bunch that all had their heads buried in the cells you can bet that they starved


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Jeffzhear said:


> Like Hummingbird asked "Do you have a picture of the inner cover you're describing?" I would like to see it as well.


Sorry for the delay. Too busy transferring nucs, etc. 80 more to go. Have to fly to Oregon tomorrow for my daughter's viola masters degree recital. Been pushing to get the work done before I leave. No way!

This is the best I could find with a quick look through "my photos."

First photo is the inner cover in winter position. Feeder can is still on. 

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/canfeeder3.jpg

Second photo is of foam on inner cover. I cover the bee escape hole...the one in the middle of the inner cover...with duct tape, so the bees won't chew the foam.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/wrapping1.jpg

Hope this helps.


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## ME Beekeeper (Mar 21, 2008)

Bolerpuller said:


> I'm new to bee keeping (3rd year). I had a hive that didn't make it through the winter and as it was a new swarm I had caught I just assumed it starved (I had a swarm starve the year before). However when I pulled it apart yesterday I found honey in it. I took some pictures as I honestly don't really know what I'm looking at. Any guesses?
> 
> http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/bolerpullers/DSCF0001.jpg
> http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/bolerpullers/DSCF0002.jpg
> ...



Hi Bolerpuller,

Going back to the original query. A hive can have honey in it and the bees still starve.  Then freeze. The bees will keep themselves warm with plenty of honey. If the bees have to break from the winter cluster to get the honey, they will die. That's why we don't use the Boardman feeders for anything but summer chores. The bees would have to break cluster to use them even in the early spring. My computer doesn't let me see your pic's as they're filtered out from my workplace. I'd put money on Mike Palmers thought's. 

Larry


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Photo one shows a frame from the brood chamber. I see no bees in cluster, no dead bees head first, and no bees really to speak of. just empty frames with a single random bee or two on each frame. The three last photo's show various pictures of frames with honey on the ends.

I am not convinced of starvation one bit. I see no cluster. no remaining brood pattern, and nothing at all to make a clear indication, other than what I am NOT seeing. And everything up to this point has been speculation. But at least dismissing starvation could be somewhat applied with the lack of bees in cluster and no brood pattern.

But hey, if the consensus is that it starved, then I guess that will suffice. I'm not buying it. 

I see a hive dwindling due to some reason with no brood, no cluster, and no supporting evidence of a healthy hive that "starved" for some unknown reason.

I could think the hive swarmed late or even totally absconded late last fall, based on what I see, before I would agree to starvation on the pictures and evidence provided. (Or some situation of no fall brood or a queen killed or that stopped laying liong ago.)

That's not to say the bees did not starve somewhere else. But not in this hive..... 

Associating mold in a hive AFTER the bees died, and then suggesting ventilation concerns is somewhat questionable also.

I have yet to read anything about a cluster of bees and no supporting picture. And without it, the guess' up to this point are exactly that,...a guess. And I'm betting a wrong guess at that.


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