# Need Trap-out Expert Wisdom



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

After reading your post, the first thing that comes to mind is are you positive that the bees do not have another entrance to the hive? If they are somehow bypassing, or even finding there way back through the cone to the inside, they will act as they seem to be. 

If I were in your shoes, I'd take a good long look at the setup, verify no bees coming out of other holes in the tree or around the cones, then check to see if the bees are finding their way back through the cones. The tip end of the cone needs to be only about 3/8 of an inch across. Just big enough to let the bees out. The cone should be covered to make it dark inside of it so as not to confuse the bees, and it should enter into the Trap box. Also may want to sit and watch to see if any bees are still coming out of the cone. 

At this point, unless the bees on the inside of the tree are finding a way around your trap out, they should be completely without anything inside to produce bees with. That is of course if the hives were not massive inside. If that's the case, you may have only just siphoned off some of the bees and the rest are still holed up inside.


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## Bee Whisperer (Mar 24, 2013)

On one trap-out, I have struggled with the crazy things finding other ways to access the tree, but I believe I have won that battle. However, I have wondered about them getting back into the cone too. As I have watched them exit, all appears normal and appropriate. I did not see any go back inside. The cone is only a 3/8" opening, and it is only 1-1/4" long; extending from a closed tunnel which should be dark inside. The ones I have seen others use appear to be merely open screen, and they seem to be working for folks, so I am not sure. However, the box has about 4 frames of solid bees. One hive may be a couple of years in the tree; the other is probably from this Spring.


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

Send a PM to member Cleo Hogan, he's the expert on trapouts and has always been very glad to help in advising.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Pics would help us help you in this situation. However, the whole idea of this trap out is to reduce the amount of bees to the point they cannot survive a winter. A bonus is that you would also capture the queen. Sounds to me that you are right on track. My cones are typically around the 8" - 10" long range so the original entrance is far enough away from the cone exit. I do have some trap outs (away from the public) that I just take a few frames of bees from every year and start a few nucs.
Some trap outs can take up to 2 months with regular frame removals.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Aren't you supposed to place a queen-right nucleus colony at the end of the cone? The bees that can't return to the cavity join the nuc.


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

In all the reading about trapouts I've never heard of putting a queen right Nuc near the trapout, so I don't think that is correct.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Adding brood to the trap out box may lure a queen out Simply to find out who is laying in her territory. I don't count on actually getting the queen from a trap out. I expect to starve her eventually. I actually prefer to simply cut them out. I did one a week and a half ago right in a person living room, them setting not more than 10 feet away. They never had one moment of problems with any flying bees.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

wind it up for now and start over in the spring. it is difficult to fight the clock and the calander. too late in the year for this to go real well.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Bee Whisperer...

Trapouts are like beekeeping. Every situation is different. Let me see if I can help a little, with the information you have provided.

In a cone funnel trapout, it is highly unlikely that the queen will come out until the stores, (honey/ pollen) are depleted, or the population in the tree has dwindled until the colony cannot sustain itself. Then she will come out.

The fact that you have not caught either queen could have one or more reasons. 1. The colony has not dwindled enough, or 2. She may have come out with what bees were left in the tree and moved on to another location, much the same as a swarm. Having a box nearby is by no means a sure thing that the queen will go into that box. After all, that box, and those bees are foreign to her. Having been separated from her colony they are no longer her bees. For her to go into that box would mean she is invading another colony, and if that colony has a queen, or brood in any stage could deter her from going into that box.

I like to seal the trap to the tree with a transition or a screen funnel protruding into the trap. That way, the bees in the trap, and the trap has the same odor as the parent colony. During a good honey flow is the best time to get the queen to come out quickly, as she will be looking for any place to lay eggs, and your trap is just another chamber, horizontal not vertical. If the trap is sealed to the tree, the odor from the brood you put into your trap may draw the queen out to inspect, to see where those eggs came from. She may come out, expecting to find another queen in your trap chamber. When she does not, she may wish to establish her dominance over this chamber by laying a few eggs in the trap chamber. 

The distance from the brood nest to the trap is also a deciding factor. Queens don't normally move long distances in the hive, so if the entrance/exit is some distance from the brood nest, she may just ignore the trap, much the same as a double screen works to separate queens in over Wintering different colonies, one over the other.

When you provide uncapped brood to either method for trapping, if the bees believe they are queenless, they may start queen cells. Unfortunately, in a screen cone funnel method, (remote hive nearby), you initially get field bees and they are not interested in starting queen cells. If it takes a few days to trap nurse bees, (leaving the colony for rest or cleansing flights), the uncapped brood may have aged and there is not a viable egg for them to start a queen from. In the sealed trap method, when you insert uncapped brood, you immediately get nurse bees that rush into the trap to tend the brood you give them. Since your trap has the same odor as the parent colony, they are not foreign to the original colony, they just can not get back to it. Most often they will not start queen cells because there is a queen in the tree, same odor, so no need to start queen cells until they realize they are trapped, and by that time the eggs are no longer viable to make a queen from.

I guess I, (and others on here much smarter than I) could give you better advise if you can come up with some specific questions. Pictures would help. Otherwise we can generalize all day, and still not help you with your particular situation.

If there is any way i can help, just let me know.

cchoganjr


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## Hoot Owl Lane Bees (Feb 24, 2012)

Bee Whisperer

I had another member in our club ask me the same question about 6 weeks ago.
I told him to drill a small hole below were he thought the bees were and spray some Honey B Gone or the likes in the hole.
They will come out just like using a fume board on suppers.


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## Bee Whisperer (Mar 24, 2013)

*Hoot Owl*; have you actually tried that? Does the queen go out as well? It might be hard to find just where the hive actually is inside the tree. I have experienced many times that nurse bees are fairly resistant to abandon the brood in a hive. However, there may not be as much brood right now; maybe some. 

*Cleo*; You may have something about the distance from the tree to the box. It may be too far. I don't know how far she will travel. Also, taking brood from another hive will always have another hive's sent; and that could be a deterrent for her. Another thing; I am using PVC pipe for the tube. It seems to work for the bees coming out, but maybe wood makes a difference for the queen. I don't know. The brood frames I have placed in the traps (3 times) have all seemed to hatch out, so maybe they have established the trap as "another hive" in the queens thinking. 










































The cone you see here has not been used yet. The ones I have been using are about 1" protrusions off the lower corner of PVC end caps. 

*Everyone*; thank you so much for your input. You all have thought provoking information.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I don't think PVC is the problem. Most observation hives that i have seen, use PVC, and observation hives tend to swarm badly, and the queen comes out through the PVC. I have used PVC many times also.

If the brood is some distance from the queen she may ignore it, but, if it is close, I believe she will most often investigate. Yes the brood has a different odor when you put it in the trap, but, the nursebees don't care. They rush out to cover and work it.

It may not make a lot of difference but, I like to wrap black Gorilla tape around the cone to block out any light. If bees on the outside, can see bees on the inside, they tend to congregate on the cone trying to get back in through the wire. If it is blackened out, they will ignore it.

Very nice set up. Good Luck.

cchoganjr


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

BW,
I like the idea you have for the adjustable trap out hive platform.... I'm going to steal the idea from you. Just sayin.


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## jredburn (Feb 25, 2012)

BW
You have had the traps in place for 3 to 4 months.
The owners want the bees gone.
The trees must stay.
There are still bees coming out of the trap.
Under these circumstances I would abandon the thought of catching the queen and concentrate on getting the bees out of the trees. I would remove the boxes and the wrappings as I suspect that the bees have found a way back into the interior and it is probably some place under the wrapping . I would take a tub of paste concrete and plug every possible entrance except one and I would put a trap out screen over it. I would then vacuum up all of the bees on the outside of the tree just about dusk and would repeat this until there were no more bees clustered at evening time. Then I would concrete the hole shut. I would take the bees and do a paper merge with another hive to build it up.
I should add that I have had to deal with the same problem of the owners getting impatient several times. I have four trap outs running now and have done 7 of them this year.
Regards
Joe


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I agree with jredburn... 

An elimination trapout should be finished in 6 weeks. The bees have to be getting back in some how. Otherwise the colony would be so depleted that it could not sustain itself. 

Could be the end of the cone funnel, or, they have found an entrance around your wrapping. Bees are very resourceful, and can defeat the best laid plans of mice and men, if given time. That is why I recommend moving away trapped bees each time you have 3 to 6 pounds of bees in the trap. You can start new colonies from these bees or if you don't want the extra colonies, you can sell them, join them to weaker hives, or recombine them back to each other.

cchoganjr


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## Bee Whisperer (Mar 24, 2013)

Yes. I believe this weekend will be about doing a combine with a couple of weaker hives. I have never attempted a fall re-queening, as it seems the time is too short. I suppose one could feed like crazy as long as they will take the syrup, but I find that they don't like the cold syrup when the weather gets so cool at night. Has anyone re-queened this late before? If so, how did it work out for you? Also, is it even possible to find a Queen to buy in the fall. I have never even tried to find one at this time of year.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

You can find queens all year round. During the Winter months you can get them from Hawaii. I think they are called Kona (sp) queens. I have not requeened in Kentucky after the 15th of September. 

Wayne Winters and Jon McDonald (New York), bring their bees (2500+ hives), to Moore Haven, Florida (my Winter home), each year to make increases, then return to New York. They order several hundred queens from Hawaii and start making their splits. I never asked them what they cost, or how much for shipping, but, they have been doing this for years.

cchoganjr


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