# Getting Queen from Inside a Tree?



## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

If you are determined to get them out do a search of Hogan Bee Trap. If it was me, I would leave them alone until next spring. They will have a better chance of making it through the winter on their own, than trying to start a new hive now.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

For more info on the Hogan trapout _Bill91143 _mentioned, see these threads:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ut-from-a-tree
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?265612-trap-out

You can send your email address to Cleo Hogan (see the second thread) for a copy of his trapout guide.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I can tell you from experience that the queen will be the LAST to exit the tree. The last trapout from a tree I did we had to cut down the tree, cut it in half and then capture the queen.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Mr.Beeman said:


> I can tell you from experience that the queen will be the LAST to exit the tree.


Mr.Beeman... I must very, very, respectfully disagree that the queen will be the last to exit the tree. If you are using the cone funnel method, then it is true that she will be about the last to leave the tree, however, if you use the method I developed, she will normally move into your trap within 12 to 24 hours of the installation of the unsealed brood. At this point, there are normally thousands and thousands of bees still in the tree. If you want the genetics, move her and the bees in the trap and relocate, and let the tree make themselves a new queen. If I am only taking starts, I simply put the queen back in the tunnel and let her go back to the tree.

The reason she will move into the trap in the method I developed is because it is sealed, an integral part of her colony. The trap is nothing more than another horizontal (rather than vertical) chamber for brood rearing. In the cone funnel method, she is actually leaving the tree, going into the outside world, and she rarely does that until the colony is almost eliminated.

EDITED..... I am adding to this post to cite some correspondence that I have received lately. Recently, I have had at least a dozen beekeepers write and tell me that they enticed the queen to come into the trap using a caged queen and drawn brood combs in lieu of the unsealed frame of brood.. I had never tried this, but apparently it is working.

cchoganjr


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I appreciate the respect Cleo as I respect you as well like soooo many others on this forum. You are correct that I was referring to the cone method and I should have been more specific. 
I am going to use Hogan method on my next trap out. I am sure there will be a "next time".


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## C-horsB (Aug 3, 2013)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Mr.Beeman... I must very, very, respectfully disagree that the queen will be the last to exit the tree.
> cchoganjr


I'm not sure, many bees came out the hive and wasn't the queen, the bees will always follow the queen.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Mr.Beeman said:


> You are correct that I was referring to the cone method.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Mr. Beeman.. After I started writing, I thought you might be talking about the cone funnel method. I still use it occasionally, especially if all I want to do is eliminate the colony without killing it. The cone funnel method is easier to set up, but, no where near as effective if you want to take starts (or maybe get the queen) because you never know what mix of bees you are going to get.
> ...


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

c-horsB.. Could you elaborate. I am not sure that I understand what you are saying.

In my method of trapping, the bees do not come out. The trap is a sealed part of the hive and the objective is to fool the bees into thinking that the trap is another brood chamber. To do that you introduce unsealed brood. That will immediately cause nurse bees, housekeepers, fanners, to come into the trap to tend the brood. Then field bees will start depositing pollen and nectar in the combs. The queen normally comes in to investigate the brood, that is when you get her.

Mr.Beeman... It is amazing how many, many, deviations, improvements, people have sent me on the method, (including the use of a caged queen). Guess I should update the instructions with all the improvements people have suggested. That's what it is all about. I am always happy to see how others have modified and been successful. Thanks to beesource, information is being shared to the betterment of all beekeepers. I certainly enjoy your posts and advice to others.

cchoganjr


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## Zeke749 (Jul 9, 2013)

Thanks guys! I'll try the sealed false-chamber method. One question; if a put a funnel on the inside of the entrance to the chamber, will that in any way affect how the bees move in? Could the stuck bees inside somehow tell the bees coming in not to come in, or something like that? (Sorry if that question's answer is ridiculously obvious; I kinda got lost reading through here. Plus, I'm a newbie beekeeper.)

Oh, Hogan, about C-horsB...
He's my brother and he thinks that the bees will _always_ follow the queen. What he's saying is that since the bees "_always_" follow her, that when the other bees came out, that must mean that queen already came out. Or at least that's what I _think_ he means. (It's kinda hard understanding his typing.)

PS: He is right next to me at this moment with an evil, mad look in his eyes. I'm not gonna ask him what he meant because I'm too lazy.


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## C-horsB (Aug 3, 2013)

No, what I think is that the bees will follow it so in theory it shouldn't be last, Drones may bee last. Workers will flee to start new colonies in a fire. Queens will fly, and shouldn't be that deep into the colony, the workers will be deeper so it won't bee last.


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## Zeke749 (Jul 9, 2013)

_Facepalm_OR, more accurately; :doh: Sorry 'bout that. Just because you're closer to the entrance doesn't mean that you'll be out before anyone else that's farther away. You have to take in speed, health, and obstacles. By the way, the bees follow the queen when she moves because it means _they're getting a new home_. Only for that.


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## C-horsB (Aug 3, 2013)

Don't you think she would be healthy? In a fire she might not make it because the melting of the combs. When moving she would most likely be near first,


> the bees follow the queen when she moves because it means they're getting a new home


She should be first when moving *Because* of that.


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## Zeke749 (Jul 9, 2013)

Don't mean to be rude, but...
WHATEVER.
We're getting t: about this, but what C-horsB means is that she won't be that last one out because of her importance and relative position in the hive. But he's talking about in the case of fire, or some other situation that requires immediate evacuation. But, C-horsB, this is just a trap. It takes time for it to work. NO smoke or fire here, either. I do think she'll be one of the last ones out in an open chamber method, but in an extension version she'll be one of those in between the middle and the first. So, like I said, I'll try that method.

Wow. Amazing how extensive simple arguments can get. On here, it seems like a little thing, only three posts. But, over _here_ (arguing with him, at home) it felt like _FOREVER_.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

C-horsB said:


> No, what I think is that the bees will follow it so in theory it shouldn't be last, Drones may bee last. Workers will flee to start new colonies in a fire. Queens will fly, and shouldn't be that deep into the colony, the workers will be deeper so it won't bee last.


C-horseB,..... Here again, I will very respectifully disagree. Drones will not necessarily be the last to leave. Nurse bees, housekeepers, fanners, and the queen, will be among the last to leave, because the survivability of the colony is dependant upon new bees replacing bees that are dying. Nurse bees, housekeepers, fanners, and others associated with tending brood, will stick their heads in honey cells and attempt to ride out the so called "fire". That is why attempting to smoke a colony out of a structure or tree most often fails. Even when large amounts of smoke is used. Even workers do not flee to start new colonies, and leave the area, most often they simply come out, ball up, and wait to return to the colony, or, if it is a real fire, when all the others, specifically the queen, come out, they leave together. Workers cannot start a new colony. Only the queen can start a new colony. Unless she comes out, any workers that would have left to start a new colony would be doomed.

Here again, I think you may talking about the cone funnel method, and I was talking about the so called, "Hogan Method" In the Hogan method, there is no movement of bees that cannot get back to the feral colony, (unless you install the funnel, and it is only used if you want to eliminate the colony) so only those who need to move to tend the unsealed brood you gave them, and to supply the new brood chamber with pollen to raise new bees, and nectar to feed those bees in the new chamber will move. Cleaners will have already come out to groom the chamber and the frames of comb that you put in the trap. Guard bees would already be at the entrance to the trap, because, that is the only entrance. Since it is a sealed chamber, it is nothing more than another vacant space to raise bees and store honey. The bees, and the queen, can come and go between the trap and the feral source at will.

Zeke749... If you install a funnel inside the trap tunnel, yes, it will affect everything. That is why you don't activate the funnel until the bees, specifically, house keepers, cleaners, fanners, and queen, have moved into the trap. The cone funnel method will work great to eliminate a colony, and get virtually all the bees, and occasionally the queen. The reason you don't always get the queen is, she will be among the last to leave the feral colony, because, she is abandoning her colony, going into the outside world, and may, or may not, enter your catch box that is stationed near the cone funnel entrance/exit. Most often she will leave, taking what bees are left in the feral source and fly nearby, ball up, and then select a new home. The reason she doesn't always go into your catcher box is, even tho those bees are her's, the presence of brood in the catcher box indicates the presence of a queen, and if she invades the catcher box, (which, remember is outside her colony), she is likely to be killed by the bees who no longer recognize her as their queen. They have taken up residence in the catcher box, and if possible, will have started queen cells to insure their survivability. At this point they are queenless, and can be quite ill, because, they are doomed without a queen.

In the "Hogan Method", the trap is just another chamber of her colony and she comes into the trap looking for a fight. Expecting to find another queen and take on this intruder queen. She is not leaving her colony, since everything is sealed. She has had dominance over the colony and is attempting to eliminate any queen that has invaded her colony. But, she is not leaving her colony, simply going into another chamber to check on an intruder or find out where those eggs came from. When she finds no queen, during a honey flow, or rapid colony buildup, she will normally lay in the trap to exert her dominance over that chamber also. That is why you find her in the trap. As she fills the cells in the comb you provide, she will move back into the feral colony, and from then on will move back and forth as she needs room to lay eggs. 

If you leave the trap in place for the summer you will find that as the queen begins to shut down on laying, in preparation for Winter, she may not come back into the trap, and the bees will start using the trap as a chamber to store surplus honey for the Winter. That is why early Spring is best for getting the queen, because, she is looking for space to lay to expand the colony for any upcoming honey flow. With the honey flow over she does not need as many bees, does not need the extra chamber for a brood chamber, and may come into the trap to check for an intruder, but, when none is found she will likely go back into the feral source to maintain the original brood nest, and the trap becomes a place to store honey.

Besourse members, sorry to take up so much space, but, hope this helps those attempting to understand the cone funnel method and the Hogan Method.. Both have their places in beekeeping. If not, PM me and I will happily discuss with you, or I will attempt to answer here.

Zeke749...I hope no one thinks I am arguing. I am not into that. If my writings have come across as arguing, I an DEEPLY SORRY. That was not my intent. I just like to attempt to help those who may not totally understand the concept of trapping. A respectiful disagreement is not really arguing. Respectful disagreements between beekeepers, (or any other profession) is a healthy way to exchange ideas. I appreciate everyone's input.

Thank You.

cchoganjr


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

[I hope no one thinks I am arguing. I am not into that. If my writings have come across as arguing, I an DEEPLY SORRY. That was not my intent. I just like to attempt to help those who may not totally understand the concept of trapping. A respectiful disagreement is not really arguing. Respectful disagreements between beekeepers, (or any other profession) is a healthy way to exchange idea. I appreciate everyone's input.] Quote

cchoganjr, I'm sure no one thinks you are arguing with them. There are probably others on here that know as much about trapping bees as you do, but if there are I don't know them, and I personally know you and what you've taught me about trapping bees, and I know your method works. Notice I said some probably know as much as you about trapping bees, but I seriously doubt there is anyone that knows more. I think everyone knows you are just passing along knowledge to help and not to argue. I for one greatly appreciate you sharing your knowledge and many years of experience with us. THANKS


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Zeke749 said:


> Could the stuck bees inside somehow tell the bees coming in not to come in, or something like that? (Sorry if that question's answer is ridiculously obvious; QUOTE]
> 
> Zeke749.. Sorry, I overlooked one of your questions, the one quoted above. The answer is no, because coming through the tunnel, and in this case the funnel also, is the only way to get to the outside. Remember, all entrances except the one coming through the trap have been sealed. The bees come through the funnel to get to the outside. Worker bees going to the field to collect pollen and nectar, others for rest and cleansing flights. In the normal course of leaving the hive they will wind up in the trap, and not able to get back to the feral source.
> 
> ...


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## Zeke749 (Jul 9, 2013)

Ok, so my description of what trap I was gonna use may have been a little confusing. Here's a picture to clarify:










As you can see, the trap was just part of the hive, with the way out somewhere else. But, yeah, if the Queen gets stuck in there without us knowing, and we wait too long to check the trap, it could die. So I guess I could remove the funnel and check it at random intervals to see if the queens there.

Oh, cchoganjr, just for the future, I'm ok with arguing. Arguing reinforces your mind: you know what your opponents are going to throw at you, and so you're mentally prepared for next time. It also gives you a wider view of things when others express their views. It's bickering (and _extremely_ repetitive arguments) that I hate.


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## C-horsB (Aug 3, 2013)

> Oh, cchoganjr, just for the future, I'm ok with arguing. Arguing reinforces your mind: you know what your opponents are going to throw at you, and so you're mentally prepared for next time. It also gives you a wider view of things when others express their views. It's bickering (and extremely repetitive arguments) that I hate.


 Same here, as far as I know.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Zeke749.. O.K. I understand your setup. What your setup needs is an entrance/exit in the closed chamber in your drawing, to allow the bees to go and come from the chamber to the outside. When you first set up this trap, the guard bees will move from the tree to this entrance, because, this is now THE ONLY entrance to the hive.

The only way from the feral source to the outside (the only entrance/exit ) needs to be through the trap. If you seal a chamber and have an entrance somewhere else as in your diagram they may or may not use your trap box. 

When the queen comes into this chamber and starts laying, her attendants, nurse bees and all the other bees need an exit to go to the outside for cleansing flights and rest. If you set up the trap as you have drawn, with an entrance/exit from the sealed chamber to the outside, within just a few hours of placing the frame of unsealed brood, your box will have 3 to 12 pounds of bees in the trap. More than enough for a good start. And yes, if that chamber is closed for too long, all the bees could die, unless they can get back to the feral source. If you had a funnel on to prevent them from returning, yes they would be trapped, and yes they could die.

Have I sent you the 12 page document that I send to anyone who wants it, that explains the trapping procedure? It has photos of actual traps in progress. If not, send me an e-mail [email protected] and I will send it to you. The photos are worth a thousand words.

Hope this has been helpful.

cchoganjr


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## Zeke749 (Jul 9, 2013)

Thanks! It really has been helpful. So I'll do that. And, no I haven't sent for the document. But I will.

Anybody else got any suggestions?


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## C-horsB (Aug 3, 2013)

Nice! I thought a picture was worth a million words.


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