# Lazutin Hive



## David Heaf (Dec 7, 2007)

ulimann said:


> Hi I read some older threads on the lazutin hive and was wondering if anybody is using that hive now and how it does or doesn't work for them.


I'm using a modified version of it:

www.dheaf.plus.com/framebeekeeping/oneboxhive.htm

So far, so good.


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## ulimann (Feb 17, 2015)

Thanks for the reply I built four hives 41inches long and 21inches wide out of 2x12 cedar walls and floor using 1 1/2 by 1 1/2 top bars beveled on bottom side standard lang framelengths hinged roof with wide overhangs hives will be left unpainted for breatheability so we'llsee where that goes


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## Steven Kluck (Mar 21, 2015)

I read Lazutin's book and I have recently installed a colony in a split-level horizontal hive which has space for ten extra-deep Lazutin-style frames near the entrance, but on one end the floor rises, beyond which there is space for 12 Langstroth-deep frames. It's not cold much of the year in Texas, but I want to try giving the queen large areas of comb to work on, while also providing some easy-to-extract frames farther from the entrance. I also included an extra-deep observation window at the brood end of the hive, just for fun.


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## ulimann (Feb 17, 2015)

yeah I like the basic idea of the horizontal deep hive and then we run with it adapting to our climate and our personal idiosyncracy I live in the PNW so winters not severe so I do not insulate the 2x12 cedar will do


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## tenleez (Jan 23, 2016)

See following post - picture upload issue


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## tenleez (Jan 23, 2016)

I read Lazutin’s book “Keeping Bees With A Smile” and was so intrigued by his success with it I wanted to give it a try. I wasn’t able to locate anyone in the New England area who is using it so built my own hive very similar to the plans laid out in his book. I used 2 x 2 framing, ¼” T&G cedar lining, 1 ½” pink insulation board, tacked on felt paper over that then applied a 5/8” pine board outer sheathing. Total wall thickness is just under 3”. I’ve put together a cover so there’s a ceiling for the bees but will take my time designing a hinged roof that’s easily lifted and lowered. Also need to install some legs for the hive, right now they’re just on blocks & stone.

Installed a packaged of Russians (5/5/16) on 5 double-deep frames with a division board with a 3/8” space on the bottom for them to explore the middle of the hive and put sugar and pollen for them if they need it. After that is a solid division board that keeps them from the rest of the hive unless/until they need more room.

Here are some pics of the interior/exterior/completed hive. The bees have been bringing in pollen and these Russian ladies are busy building up the colony. So far so good. Will keep you posted as they progress.


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## dpula2 (Jun 4, 2018)

What is your experience with that Lazutin Hive?


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

I read his book and was very inspired. I built a hive based on my own specifications because I wanted to be able to put my top bar combs in the horizontal hive. So the dimensions of the box I built, 22" high, 33" long, and 17" long top bars.

I use top bars ala the top bar / African hive, they touch and form a closed roof over which I place a plywood roof. On the underside of the 17" I attach a frame which is roughly 13" by 18" interior of the frame dimensions, or else I attach a 15" top bar from one of my top bar hives.

This season, I built this hive and transferred a nuc with hatched queen into it. We'll see how it does!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here: https://www.etsy.com/listing/579448..._custom1=3564e85a-dce6-4751-8626-a681fced205e


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

One thing I concluded for myself (being foundation-less) - those wired frames are really a pain. 
They just get in a way and not helping much when you do things in TB-keeper ways.
I will remove all the wires I inserted into my frames and will replace them with additional horizontal bars (making secondary top bars/shelves, sort of).
Sort of like so (but prefer two mid-bars, not just one like on the pic):








To be sure: the wires ARE needed if you do foundation.


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## dpula2 (Jun 4, 2018)

So do you feel that bees winter better on that big frame compared to Langs?
Also, since you are using foundationless, do bees produce enough honey and is the comb collapsing in the winter?
In general is that hive bettwe to work with than Lang hive?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

How do you measure if bees "winter better"? 
I don't know.

I do know that a small cluster of bees will not winter well in Lang hive.
That is why people are taught to make colonies strong and leave them tons of honey.
Wintering large clusters is expensive in many ways.

But my bees will winter in small cluster on tall frames just fine.
They will hardly eat any honey; they eat so little honey I am surprised.
So I will not be afraid to winter small clusters in the future. 
This has many benefits in my book.

So, if a hive allows for good wintering of small clusters, it is a good hive.

Bees will produce plenty of honey in any foundation-less system.
It is your job to make sure that they do.
In the end it is the balance sheet what matters - you make less, but if you also spend less the net result will be the same.

Why would comb collapse in winter? 
Fresh comb full of honey *can* collapse in very hot weather.
But not in winter, unless you break it.

What is "better" to work with? Define "better".

For sure, horizontal hives are "better" in ergonomic sense in routine work.
Also for sure, horizontal hives are much easier to build at home (much more forgiving about any wood-working errors and non-perfect materials; scraps are fine).
Horizontal hives do not require frames (frames are only nice option; not a requirement) - a huge benefit for a hobbyist.
Simplicity of single-level comb management (frame or no frame) is another huge benefit for a hobbyist.

So, you need to decide what is you looking for.
Then decide how to get there.
If you are a commercial keeper - look into commercial systems (they work).
Lazutin is not a good fit for most commercial keepers in the US (small scale - maybe; if you have a great location - very much maybe).
The main disadvantage of Lazutin - lack of mobility. Have to be stationary.


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## dpula2 (Jun 4, 2018)

well, I have heard that when you provide foundation the bees will gather about 50 percent more honey, cause they have to work less to built and strengthen that comb

also I saw on your pictures you are using frames without foundations. Could you use just wooden sticks on top without frame.

and when it comes to comb collapse i was thinking about hot weather. Do you experience it? Or, when running only top bars, wouldnt the bees glue the comb to the wall of the hive?

It would be nice if someone came up with a horizontal hive that was connected in at least to segments (parts) to allow for easier transport


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Please provide a source for that claim. The bees still have to build comb on the foundation. Perhaps you misunderstood. A large gain in honey production does occur if they are provided with *drawn* comb as the significant amount of effort required to build the comb can now be directed towards that goal .


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## dpula2 (Jun 4, 2018)

is there a way to buy a drawn comb, maybe a plastic one


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

dpula2 said:


> well, I have heard that when you provide foundation the bees will gather about 50 percent more honey, cause they have to work less to built and strengthen that comb
> 
> also I saw on your pictures you are using frames without foundations. Could you use just wooden sticks on top without frame.
> 
> ...



Very recently exactly on this forum I asked - how much wax the foundation accounts for in the entire comb.
The answer was - 10% (I liked the answer and it makes sense).
So, indeed, drawn comb WILL significantly save bees time and effort (exactly why I do save old, unused combs - to get them filled with honey before I recycle the wax).
Just the foundation savings are less significant (another MINUS - you pay for foundation itself).

Why I use frames?
Like I have been saying and posting many pics by now - I have used just the top bars given absolutely no choice. They work just fine. They sure are really, really fast to make. They cost $0.0.
So you say sticks - I have done it and will continue doing it. Because I can.
If in a pinch, you put the sticks down, cover them with burlap or plastic. Done. (watch Sam Comfort doing exactly that)

But when have time I make full frames - this is because a frame is SO much nicer to handle and provides for better work. 
I pull frames and just stock them up by the hives on grass or dirt. You can cut combs and paste them into the frames easily. Benefits never end at the only one disadvantage - takes more time/material to make a frame.
I view my hives with secondary bars in them as multi-level top bar hives.
Unfortunately the true TB hives are not designed for frames (just a shame), but the Old World horizontal hives can do it all - frames/bars/sticks and burplap/warm way/cold way (you name it, they can do it). Lazutin is just the same.

Foundation-less combs do not collapse on frames. 
You really have to try hard to make them collapse.

I thought about bolting together 2-3 nucs that I use. 
Dropped that thought.
At that rate, I can just use the nucs to transport bees if really have to (split hive in to nucs; put it back together after moving).
But even that is a looser not needed for me.
My big hives I just transport as is (takes two people; but I have help).














Small hives I transport alone fine.
This is one reason I do not have Lazutin hives - trans-portability. Lazutin was never meant for mobility; it stationary.


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## Steven Kluck (Mar 21, 2015)

Steven Kluck said:


> I read Lazutin's book and I have recently installed a colony in a split-level horizontal hive which has space for ten extra-deep Lazutin-style frames near the entrance, but on one end the floor rises, beyond which there is space for 12 Langstroth-deep frames. It's not cold much of the year in Texas, but I want to try giving the queen large areas of comb to work on, while also providing some easy-to-extract frames farther from the entrance. I also included an extra-deep observation window at the brood end of the hive, just for fun.


So, three years later, the bees have done reasonably well in this hive, but the bees seem to be avoiding storing honey in the end that has normal Langstroth-deep frames (see image), preferring to simply fill or overfill the upper portions of the Lazutin-sized frames. Having the big observation window in the end of the hive is perhaps the best added feature. I have gained much in the time spent looking in on them.

I do not prefer handling those extra-deep frames. Their weight when overfilled with honey is a little challenging for a butterfingered hobbyist. And I would not want to even consider moving the whole hive!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Large-volume hives are an excellent idea for managing Siberian honeybees. Lautzin's hives are even larger than my Modified Square Jumbo Dadant beehives. This should do wonders for delaying swarming, one of the main concerns of siberian (a.k.a. "Russian" honeybees). It should reduce the intensity of the management regimen for the beekeeper.


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## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

Steven Kluck said:


> ...
> 
> I do not prefer handling those extra-deep frames. Their weight when overfilled with honey is a little challenging for a butterfingered hobbyist. And I would not want to even consider moving the whole hive!
> 
> View attachment 41273


I was wondering if extra care has to be taken when these deeper frames are pulled out or inserted back in? I believe I have seen someone attach little pins on the outside of the endbars closer to the bottom bars to serve as spacers. These spaces don't let the endbars touch the walls. This supposedly helps to avoid killing bees by preventing scraping the hive walls with the lower corners of the frames when they are accidentally tilted too much while pulling them out or putting back in. 

Was also wondering about the position of the entrance vertical-wise: should it be at the bottom of the hive or some distance up? Would appreciate comments.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Steven Kluck said:


> .. but the *bees seem to be avoiding storing honey in the end* that has normal Langstroth-deep frames (see image), preferring to simply fill or overfill the upper portions of the Lazutin-sized frames.


Which makes sense.
Why should they?
1) The large frame volume is large enough for them to store honey overhead (the preferred way).
2) They might store the honey sideways if the large frame volume is more confined (top bar hives have very limited, shallow brood nest and bees have no choice but to store honey on the back; still - the entire top bar hive is a single unit and a single volume). 

I would try limited nest confinement using follower boards (say, remove a couple of large frames, if possible, and fill that space with a couple of dummy frames).
Still though, that "step" just does not feel right and the shallow honey volume feels as if segregated from the rest of the hive and does not participate in the general hive (natural air flows are broken for sure).

I would not do it this way and keep the entire hive at the same depth.
Turn those Lang frames 90 degrees; screw top bars to the side; use support bracket/follower boards to hang them.
I have strong feeling things will improve if the honey section is done this way.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

kilocharlie said:


> Large-volume hives are an excellent idea for managing Siberian honeybees. Lautzin's hives are even larger than my Modified Square Jumbo Dadant beehives. This should do wonders for delaying swarming, one of the main concerns of siberian (a.k.a. "Russian" honeybees). It should reduce the intensity of the management regimen for the beekeeper.


To be clear, Fyodor Lazutin NEVER kept so called "Russian" bees. He just did not have them.
He kept the local variety of black bees (Amm) that were doing really well in Kaluga region of Russia, 140 kilometres southwest of Moscow.

What is marketed in the USA as "Russian" bees are mixed mutts the originate from Far East region of Russia, located right next to Japan Sea.
The "Russian" bees are product of random mixing Amm, Ukrainians, Italians, Caucasians and, possible, some Carpathians/Carniolans that were imported into the Far East over the last 100-200 years (there were no honey bees in that region before, just like in Alaska, USA until recently). These bees are known in Russia-proper as "Far Eastern" bees and are not considered the true "Russians".

So, our US "Russians" have never been kept in Lazutin hives in Russia. 
Just so this is clear.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I believe I have seen someone attach little pins on the outside of the endbars closer to the bottom bars to serve as spacers. These spaces don't let the endbars touch the walls. This supposedly helps to avoid killing bees by preventing scraping the hive walls with the lower corners of the frames when they are accidentally tilted too much while pulling them out or putting back in. 

I have quite a bit of PermaComb. It has tabs on the ends that make it difficult to pull out unless I cut the tabs off. The problem is that they won't let you lift one end of a frame and get a finger under it and then the other end of the frame. I think the pins would create this problem.


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

That is interesting, what is the rationale for the split level?



Steven Kluck said:


> So, three years later, the bees have done reasonably well in this hive, but the bees seem to be avoiding storing honey in the end that has normal Langstroth-deep frames (see image), preferring to simply fill or overfill the upper portions of the Lazutin-sized frames. Having the big observation window in the end of the hive is perhaps the best added feature. I have gained much in the time spent looking in on them.
> 
> I do not prefer handling those extra-deep frames. Their weight when overfilled with honey is a little challenging for a butterfingered hobbyist. And I would not want to even consider moving the whole hive!
> 
> ...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Yunzow said:


> That is interesting, what is the rationale for the split level?


I can only guess, the rationale is perceived beekeeper convenience (for extraction).

It maybe influenced by the Layens hive design pictures little_jon referenced few times.
What is unclear to me is how successful those Layens designed "shelves" were.
As LJ himself pointed out, there were many (hundreds?) of beehive designs proposed, but only few are practically successful and are used.

So far I was not able to see "shelf" usage in recent Layens videos or photos (or any similar large horizontal hive designs).
The current videos I found (mostly Spanish and Romanian) all are using a single size frame/single volume Layens hive (none of those "shelves").
It maybe those "shelves" did not work out in the past (just like in this case) and were discontinued.

Of interest, here is a Romanian study comparing standard Layens hive (no "shelves") to a standard Dadant hive: 
https://www.researchgate.net/public...TO_VERTICAL_HIVES_ON_DADANT_AND_LAYENS_FRAMES


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