# Hygenic behavioral disorder......



## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I am relaying this as I was told today......Some of the more VHS stock lines and that includes some of those from Minnesota are showing a very negative trait. Yes, these bees are very Varroa resistant and are good house cleaners to the EXTREME....Here is what I was told and what is happening....At the first sign of trouble the bees literally destroy their broodnest. They are SO hygenic that they pull out EVERY scrap of brood in the colony and carry it out the entrance of the hive. Yes, while this does control Varroa, it severly weakens the colony sometimes to the point of death. If the colony survives, it is a non-productive, non-honey producing colony of bees. Thus it becomes dead weight in anybody's operation. Sadly, what I have been told the bees are doing this bizzare trait at the sign of any trouble not just Varroa. Thus are destroying themselves.....WE have bred bees that now have become too VHS. Honey production in the Nation is dropping every year and it maybe due to too much VHS behaviour...... We now must get back to the basics and breed bees for productivity, honey production, color, temperment. The traits that we all were breeding for before the problems hit many, many years ago. I would rather have a productive bee that spends its time producing honey that I might have to treat if need be and not a bee that spends its time destroying itself. We as an industry do not need anymore problems!! TED


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Do they come in DVD and Blueray as well? 

I thought that you only needed about 30% VSH to get enough resistance (that sounds like 100%)?

You might at least cite some literature to back up what you're claiming.


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## Humanbeeing (Nov 23, 2010)

That's interesting Ted. I had one of my Minnesota Hygenic hives pull all of their brood out just as you explained. None of my other hives did that, including other hygenic hives. Since it was in early May, and it got warm, then freezing again for a prolonged period, I assumed it was chilled. That's all I could figure anyway. I have Minn Hygen and VSH mixed in with my Carnies. I will keep a closer eye on this now that I am aware of it. So if this is the case, I guess over time, and open breeding with local survivors and my Carnies, it would equal out? Or not?


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## vegasvalet (Jan 10, 2011)

Do you believe everything that you are told?? You can ask 10 different people a question and get at least that many different opinions or answers.


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## Humanbeeing (Nov 23, 2010)

No, I don't believe everything I am told, but I don't think he is lying about this. Is that what you are saying?


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## megank (Mar 28, 2006)

He's telling the truth.

I have seen this with my own eyes. I once ordered a breeder VSH aka SMR a while back and for no reason many of these bees would literally throw the baby out with the bathwater. They would pull through winter just fine, get one or two cycles in, then start their destruction of the pupae and slowly dwindle to the point they would just abscond some time in late April.


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## Honeycomb (Jan 15, 2010)

That is very disturbing.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It isn't a disorder. It's too much VSH trait.

You have to dilute the VSH genetics for production hives.

Of course, you could have introduced too much VSH genetics into your stock.

The other possibility is that all of the brood are infected, and that's why they are being removed.

It can happen. But, I wouldn't characteize it as a disorder.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sounds like they've finally bred bees with OCD. I seem to remember deknow predicting that as a possibility...

I think breeding for one trait is a bad idea. Better to look at the whole picture.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Thomas D. Norman (the old Norman Bee Company) told me the info I have relayed. He heard it from a former customer who had called him for advice on this exact problem. Thomas told him to get in touch with Baton Rouge (bee lab). The customer did and called Thomas back and told him exactly what I have relayed. The boys in Baton Rouge are calling it a disorder, one that is popping up more frequently nationwide. Michael Bush is correct. But how do we all now compensate for twenty years of selected breeding with out losing the VHS/SMR trait? It took seven years of work to produce a SMR bee in my operation all those years ago. Sadly, The happy medium needed between VHS and productive bees has been lost. TED


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

The US colony loss rate is still around 30%.

If it is an issue of too much hygienic trait in the population, then it's 'the Bell Curve'. Some queens. or the tail, will mate with too many hygienic-heavy drones.

I wouldn't get too worried until the US colony loss rate spikes, or there's published research that shows that this is real.

Chin up Ted.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When I was in Drivers Education class a few years ago (decades actually) the instructor was fond of saying "aim high in steering". It was one of those things I just didn't understand until I was driving and figured it out. The point is that if you look right in front of you and steer you will be all over the road. You need to look out ahead of you to where you will be a second from now, not too close. 

I think when you look closely at a particular trait and breed for just that, you are making the same mistake. You are looking too close. You should back up and see the "forest instead of the trees". I think if you don't treat and you pick what is thriving and producing under those circumstances (not treating) you'll find what you want without mistaking what you THINK is the cause of success for actual success. 

I've seen this mistake in everything from breeding horses and cattle and dogs to bees. I've seen horses that have been been bred for particular characteristics only to find they have bred them to have severe flaws in other areas. Cattle that have been bred to be "compact" until they can't have calves without intervention. Dogs bred for particular conformation to the exclusion of intelligence and good health. It's dangerous to focus on any one trait when breeding. There is too much to lose.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

MB,

I believe that you can apply your same driving analogy to reacting too quickly to what may not be a significant event - swerving to avoid a squirrel in the road may not be in your be interest. Lots of generally positive comments on beesource about VSH, particularly stuff directly related to the queens coming out of Glenn Apiaries. Further, I find it nearly impossible to believe that USDA and subsequent breeders have focused on only one trait. That seems to me to presume that these scientists and pros are abject rookies with no concept of what ingredients make good balanced queens - doesn't seem too likely.

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/hygienic_italian_breeder_queens.html


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## chrisreedtn (Apr 11, 2010)

I have not seen it, but I have also heard of this happening with some higher % russian stock.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I find it nearly impossible to believe that USDA and subsequent breeders have focused on only one trait. That seems to me to presume that these scientists and pros are abject rookies with no concept of what ingredients make good balanced queens - doesn't seem too likely.

My point isn't that they are ignoring everything else, but the fact is they are focused on this one trait on the assumption that it is a good trait and that this trait will help with Varroa. I don't look for any one behavior, I'm looking for bees that are doing well. I don't know why they are doing well and I don't care why they are doing well. The reality is almost infinitely complex and it may be some very complex mixture of things that causes them to prosper and do well, complex enough that the combinatorial analysis to come up with all the things to analyze it would be virtually infinite. 

I only care that they ARE doing well. Focusing on one trait, even if you try not to breed out other traits, still is, IMO, a mistake. Tests that have been done on AHB that were doing well as far as Varroa have shown they have little if any hygienic behavior. And yet they are doing well.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

There is indeed a maximum level of vsh that can be within a colony and it still be considered healthy and productive. The trouble with this (and I think that this is where MB is going), is that by breeding so strongly with the intent to promote this recessive trait, operations are inevitably setting themselves up for a distant or not so distant failure. By following such practices an operation is setting into motion a chain of events that will boast this trait more and more with each following season and eventually will find itself with the "suicidal/homicidal" colonies that Ted describes. Diversity is the key to limit such ends, but an in-depth understanding of bee genetics and colony mechanics is needed for an operation to be successful with boasting one trait, while still focussing on promoting all others at the same time. It can be win/lose or lose/lose for those that put all of the eggs into one basket so to speak. Vsh does not kill varroa, starvation does... vsh can be a tool to help to starve them, but must be accompanied by other traits and mechanics in order to be successful and productive. Too much vsh is just that, too much... and this goes with any set of traits that we may breed for. I think that vsh gained through crossing primorsky is reaching for a silver bullet, when the truth is, ALL bees are developing resistances to mites... it takes time and selection, be it like MB by selecting the best over all colonies and promoting them across the operation, or selecting for specific qualities within the best colonies and promoting them within the yard to study them before mixing these traits from each yard to promote each quality at once. In all that we do with bees, the first thing to keep in mind is the natural order... there is a reason for everything and the more we intervene in that order, the more we must correct our own mistakes... any change that we make must be gradual and isolated... each group must be studied and compared side by side..."bad grapes" keeps coming to mind... it takes time for nature to mend our mistakes, varroa is our mistake... given the opportunity, the productive lineages will eventually defeat varroa... for those that grab those silver bullets, they may face a deeper and much more complex issue.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

MB (and others), do you treat for mites at all or do you just use the Bond method? If VSH is not the answer, then what type of traits should we be looking for? Obviously excessive swarming helps to keep the mite population down with the breaks in the brood cycle but this also is not something that honey producers will want in their operations.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>MB (and others), do you treat for mites at all

Not at all.

> or do you just use the Bond method?

No. I put them on small cell and they stopped dying from Varroa. The year before the ALL died from Varroa. New commercial stock on small cell did not. You can't breed from survivors when you have no survivors. The next year I started collecting feral stock which overwintered much better than the commercial stock.

> If VSH is not the answer, then what type of traits should we be looking for? 

It's easy enough to pick the ones that are thriving as opposed to the ones that are not. Add the traits you want, like gentleness and productivity. If you don't treat then the ones that are doing well under those circumstances are the ones you want.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Diana Sammataro put it perfectly at a recent presentation here in CO. To paraphrase, she said the great thing about VSH is that they do indeed remove brood that has disease. The problem with them is they remove brood that has disease. Meaning that it's a tradeoff... sometimes that brood would still have contributed positively to the colony's production and vitality. I know I'll earn some flames here but any strain that enthusiastically culls their own brood will necessarily have, well, less brood which can mean less production.

To me VSH is a little hard to get on as a bandwagon... it's still SO recessive that you need to buy all your queens from a highly-skilled breeder with a robust program. As soon as your bees naturally requeen, the VSH is gone gone gone; it can't be "added" to the genetic makeup of your operation or even your area. It's like terminator seeds from Monsanto... once you start with them you can never buy anything else.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

This is from the Glenn Apiaries website about whether VSH is recessive or dominant.

"The VSH trait is thought to be controlled by more than one gene, just how many is uncertain at this point. These genes are neither dominant nor recessive. They are what is called "additive" which simply means that the more of them that are present, the more strongly the trait will be expressed. This works in favor of beekeepers since a queen with VSH genes can mate to any drones and still have the trait expressed in her colony enough to reduce the mite population. So naturally mated queens produced from pure VSH breeders are mite resistant."

This seems to me that the daughter queens from the breeders may have a nice balance of brood removal and production.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I would say that you could control the %age of workers in your colonies with the VSH trait by adding the appropriate genetics. This is assuming that you are breeding your own.

Besides adding too much VSH genetics, there are other ways that an apiary with a balanced amount of VSH genetics can become unsustainable.

For example, if there is a 'partitioning' effect caused by drones rich in VSH genetics being overproduced and outbreeding drones with lesser VSH genetics, then naturally, in a relatively few generations, your stock will haver a higher %age of VSH workers. So, an operation with a balanced amount of VSH genetics could suddenly have too much.

I do not know if this has ever been demonstrated however.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Ben Brewcat; said:


> it can't be "added" to the genetic makeup of your operation or even your area. It's like terminator seeds from Monsanto... once you start with them you can never buy anything else.


This really depends more upon where the vsh trait was introduced from... like Mosherd points out from Tom's site, there are multiple links to the vsh trait. A direct path to the most used form of vsh trait is to cross primorsky into other strains and select aggressively... these new crosses can be used to create daughters that will produce drones that carry the vsh trait, which can in turn be used to mate with other vsh daughters... bare in mind that these drone colonies will not show the trait, but will still pass it along to progeny of colonies that the drones have mated with the queens of... the higher the number of vsh drones that mate with a non vsh queen, the higher the likelihood of the colony producing a vsh queen if it is allowed to naturally reproduce... this new queen will still need to mate with vsh drones to produce the effects within her new colony, and the more vsh drones that she mates with, the higher the number of vsh progeny she will produce.

Using this method, the trait can spread across an operation in a matter of years, so long as the colonies are naturally requeening themselves, and there is a sufficient amount of vsh daughters heading hives for drone production... but this is also the same way that an operation can find itself with an excess level of vsh...

As Mosherd pointed out from Tom's site, there are also multiple indirect traits that are linked to vsh as well... this is due to the state of "flux" that today US bees are in. As varroa and brood diseases are being addressed by all strains and lineages across the US, they are in a state of adaptation, and several traits are becoming more so present to answer these threats. Excessive Swarming, VSH, heightened hygiene (grooming), and dearth shut downs are a few that are linked and becoming more common as each one has some amount of success lowering the threat levels... in conjunction, they can prove very consistent, however, situational considerations are even more so important...

None of these traits will completely remove all varroa from a hive, unless the situation is allowed to work with them... 

1. Reinforcements... where as these traits can remove mites from the colony, fresh waves of new mites can always be brought in and eventually overwhelm the colony.

2. Weather, landscape, and food source... these traits do not kill varroa, starvation, cold, cooking, and drowning kill varroa... these traits are a method of getting them out if the safety and nourishment of the colony, but they need to be able to do so in way that the mites will die outside and not be allowed to return.

I can attest to the effectiveness of adapting strains and it is my opinion that crossing with primorsky for a "quick trait introduction" is Not the answer. For one, there are other traits that are being passed along during these crosses... also, while working with the naturally developing traits, one can select away from excessive swarming and even select to produce a slightly lower level of vsh to limit its over development.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that it might help to understand that hygienic behavior has multiple components:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-294X.2010.04569.x/abstract

Also, it shows that they really don't have a full picture of the genetics of hygienic behavior.

I've read the paper, and quite frankly, maybe Ted and others do have a reason to be alarmed/critical.

I know that there was an emergency when these strains were developed, but you do have a responsibility to be absolutely sure about their genetics before you release them.

They can only explain 30% of the genetics involved in hygienic behavior. Tsk, tsk.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes, these strains were created in an emergency. Marching orders were given-find something that will fight and survive Varroa. Devil be ****ed in the details.....TED


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## REN (May 7, 2011)

WLC said:


> They can only explain 30% of the genetics involved in hygienic behavior. Tsk, tsk.


That is pretty standard, I believe. I'm still learning about bee genetics, but I know that in other species that I work with only 20-30% of phenotype (in this case that would be VSH) can be explained by genetics. The other 70-80% is attributed to environment.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

They can't account for the thresholds for hygienic behavior.

In short, they don't know where the volume controls are.

You can make crosses with VSH stock that end up with the volume control stuck at '11' as Ted has described.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I just finished reading thru this thread, and while I'm not an expert on bee genetics I have since July 2010 experienced a very hygenic genetic. I have had Pure Russians. They are what the USDA has developed from the Primorsky. You won't have to worry too much about about them carrying all the brood out as it is very hard to keep a laying queen in them. So from my experience the VSH genetics that are using the Primorsky are going to have lots of undesirable traits. This silver bullet that the goverment has developed are the worst bees that I have ever kept. So without going and quoting some of the other posts. Yes scientist and experts can really get their minds and purpose way off where it needs to be. I would tell you if you want problems try them. You can't get them to take queens of a differient genetic. I'm going way further than I need to at this time as I plan to when I have time to put all the facts together and give a full report. Because I thought they would be the best thing since sliced bread. I listened to the Goverment and their scientist. Had a weak moment, VERY.


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## megank (Mar 28, 2006)

AstroBee said:


> I find it nearly impossible to believe that USDA and subsequent breeders have focused on only one trait.


That's exactly what they did with the original SMr strain developed at Baton Rouge..focused ONLY on mite resistance and ignoring, color, temperament, honey production, swarming etc...etc...etc...


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Megank, from what I've seen from my Russians that is exactly what they did. Or were unable to suppress several traits. I have 2 differient lineages. One does seem to be SLIGHTLY better than the other.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Just to be clear, the OP was talking about, as VSH (or as Ted calls them VHS) and Minnesota Hygienic. Russian are completely different. Valleyman, sorry you got burned on the Russians. However, I'm surprised that you jumped onto that bandwagon given the huge amount of negative information out there. 

From Glenn Apiaries website:

Are VSH bees related to the USDA Russian bees?
No. Though coming out of the same USDA ARS research laboratory as the Russians, they are not related. VSH bees are not imported, they originated from domestic American colonies. 

Also, from USDA Annual Report 2010 regarding VSH research:

Bee colonies were shipped nationwide and used for spring pollination of almonds in California, apples in New York, low-bush blueberries in Maine, and cranberries in Massachusetts, as well as late summer honey production in New York. VSH bee colonies performed well in terms of survival, populations, and resistance to varroa mites. The best surviving VSH bee colonies from each year were propagated to form a breeding population which had enhanced genetics for both mite resistance and behavior related to crop pollination.

Sounds to me that they were not focusing on only one trait.


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## REN (May 7, 2011)

WLC said:


> They can't account for the thresholds for hygienic behavior.
> 
> In short, they don't know where the volume controls are.
> 
> You can make crosses with VSH stock that end up with the volume control stuck at '11' as Ted has described.





WLC said:


> They can't account for the thresholds for hygienic behavior.
> 
> In short, they don't know where the volume controls are.
> 
> You can make crosses with VSH stock that end up with the volume control stuck at '11' as Ted has described.


The environment has the most influence on expression of traits. For example, let me use salmon which is a species that I'm very familiar with. Growth and size of salmon are heritable traits. Bigger, faster growing fish will tend to produce bigger, faster growing progeny. However, if you feed juvenile salmon a large amount of a high fat, high lipid diet, more of those fish will come back at a smaller size and a younger age. Accelerating their growth triggers them to come back from the ocean earlier. The environment influences the genetic predisposition of a larger fish being produced by larger fish and vice versa. I don't know what the triggers are in VSH for bees, but it doesn't surprise me that genetics only play a part in this behavior. It sounds like more research needs to be done, however, which is the point that you seem to be making.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

And the Salmon that are running back up the rivers from the fish hatchery programs have overtime, become genetically weaker than their wild cousins......Environment or not.....The VSH or VHS trait as I call it, has been spread by breeders for a good twenty years....Also as Dr. Russell has pointed out in many different post on many different related threads, Bees are developing this trait on their own as time has progressed. Thus genetic amplification is occuring as the trait is becoming widespread.....Is this a good thing, maybe or maybe not if the bees have become self destructive. As Dr. Russell will most likely point out, only time will tell. TED


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## REN (May 7, 2011)

I agree with Ted...or at least I don't know enough to disagree with him!  VSH may benefit bees, but if the behavior is too extreme and it results in a decline in production it would be undesireable. It seems to me that as a beekeeper, you'd want a balance. I was simply pointing out that genetics only play a part in the overall outcome. Regardless, I was impressed with the research, posted by WLC, which indicated that there were genetic markers identify 30% of VSH behavior. That is pretty darn good! Whether you are in favor of incorporating VSH into your hives or not, having the markers provides you with a tool to select for that behavior, or not! If you don't want your bees to display VSH behavior, you could select a strain of bees that doesn't have those markers that were identified through that research. As for salmon, yes hatcheries have caused problems...for many reasons, and having genetic information such as this only helps to correct or prevent this type of problem. Bob


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> I am relaying this as I was told today......Some of the more VHS stock lines and that includes some of those from Minnesota are showing a very negative trait. Yes, these bees are very Varroa resistant and are good house cleaners to the EXTREME....Here is what I was told and what is happening....At the first sign of trouble the bees literally destroy their broodnest. They are SO hygenic that they pull out EVERY scrap of brood in the colony and carry it out the entrance of the hive. Yes, while this does control Varroa, it severly weakens the colony sometimes to the point of death. If the colony survives, it is a non-productive, non-honey producing colony of bees. Thus it becomes dead weight in anybody's operation. Sadly, what I have been told the bees are doing this bizzare trait at the sign of any trouble not just Varroa. Thus are destroying themselves.....WE have bred bees that now have become too VHS. Honey production in the Nation is dropping every year and it maybe due to too much VHS behaviour...... We now must get back to the basics and breed bees for productivity, honey production, color, temperment. The traits that we all were breeding for before the problems hit many, many years ago. I would rather have a productive bee that spends its time producing honey that I might have to treat if need be and not a bee that spends its time destroying itself. We as an industry do not need anymore problems!! TED


Most folks that I know who use VSH in their breeding program are selecting for bees that show positive economic traits: bees that thrive and produce, just as you stated above:

"We now must get back to the basics and breed bees for productivity, honey production, color, temperment. The traits that we all were breeding for before the problems hit many, many years ago."

To state that current breeders are selecting for mite tolerance through VSH expression at the expense of positive economic traits is somewhat over-simplified. There are culls in *any *breeding program. You could also state using your logic, that breeders who aren't using VSH in their breeding program are also selecting for susceptable stock by masking all symptoms through the use of miticides and antibiotics.

Bottom line:
The fine breeders out there using all the tools available continue to grow and their customers continue to have productive bees. One certainly wouldn't remain a breeder long if one's stock performed poorly.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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