# K-wing bee?



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Well it is a classic "K" wing. I'd just look for more. If you don't find more, I wouldn't get too worried. If you find a few I'd keep an eye on things. If you find a lot, it's probably worth trying to find better queens in the spring. The damage is probably already done now.


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

what does it maen? verroa? or reference to queen indicate bad genes?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Hopefully if you have strong cluster and a mild problem you should be OK. 

K-wing is the classic symptom of Trachael Mites. Many beekeepers fail to notice this easily identified problem. I'm a firm believer Trachaels claim many more hives each year than they get credit for. Not much to do this time of year, grease patties help during the brood season but not so much in cold weather. The concept is tracheal mites locate the host by hydrocarbons given off during respiration, grease patties mask that odor confusing the mites. Menthol works better and accomplishes it in the same manner. It is easy to diagnose, just take your K-wing bees and put them under a table lamp. Using tweezers seperate the head from the exoskelatan very gentle by twisting and slowly remove the head exposing the trachael tubes. A magnifying glass or microscope is a big help. The trachael tubes should be white. If they are discolored or spotty you have mites. 

I'm assuming if MB is reccommending queens he must be aware of some trachael resistant stock which I'm not. The usual cure is menthol treatment.

[ December 26, 2005, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm assuming if MB is reccommending queens he must be aware of some trachael resistant stock which I'm not. 

Well, it was the major reason for creating the Buckfasts which are known to be tracheal mite resistant. I used to get Northern Italians from Beeworkds which were bred to be tracheal mite resitant. It's a trait that can be bred for and is a trait that all breeders SHOULD be breeding for. Try asking your queen breeder if they have TM resistant stock.

A simple method is just never treat for tracheal mites and never breed from hives that have TM problems.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Are there any menthol treatments that are effective in wintertime? I know it's temperature-dependent, and you need to get it out a couple weeks before harvesting honey for consumption.... 

I was under the impression that grease patties helped by making the bees slick, interfering with the questing mite's ability to latch on to the hairs of a passing bee.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Are there any menthol treatments that are effective in wintertime? I know it's temperature-dependent, and you need to get it out a couple weeks before harvesting honey for consumption.... 

I've never used menthol at all. But I wonder if one could add it to FGMO and fog it? Of course, getting the right dose would be the trick. You want to kill the TM and not the bees.

>I was under the impression that grease patties helped by making the bees slick, interfering with the questing mite's ability to latch on to the hairs of a passing bee.

I'm not sure there is definitive proof of the mechanism, but the one I hear most often is that it interferes with their ability to smell young bees. What is known, is that it works. I have not heard the "slick" theory before.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{Well, it was the major reason for creating the Buckfasts which are known to be tracheal mite resistant.}

Yea, I must have been asleep when I wrote the prelude to that. I've been using and reading about buckfast bees for 15 yrs, I did know that!!!

{have not heard the "slick" theory before.}

He's confusing his mites MB, the slick is supposed to keep varroa from attaching to the exoskelatan easily.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

In my opinion Menthol has no consistant effect on tracheal mites. The mite symposium in Syracuse, 1988 I think it was, had a fellow from FL who show greatly inconsistent results in his apiaries. If it should work any where it should work in FL. Gard Otis of University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario, Canada did some trials along the St. Lawrence Seaway and foun no positive results. So I say, don't waste your money. Unless you want to.
Mark


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks Mark, that's good information to have. We've used formic for years (for trachael and varroa knock down between spring and summer honey supering)? Unfortunately we've spent some money on menthol too. Any info on that in relation to Trachael? An opinion on winter losses/numbers due to trachaels.

[ December 28, 2005, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

> He's confusing his mites MB, the slick is supposed to keep varroa from attaching to the exoskelatan easily.


Don't be afraid to address me directly; I can take it







. The grease patty thing I got from the Beekeeper's Handbook by Sammataro and Avitabile, and also from Beekeeping for Dummies and posts such as http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004274#000001 and http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000255#000000 . It didn't seem so improbable... the questing female emerging from the trachea latches on to a passing bee's hairs and climbs to their spiracles. I actually hadn't heard of grease patties for Varroa. 

I do know that Menthol is the preferred chemo-agent, but in winter wouldn't work much.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Ben Brewcat . . .

>Menthol is the preferred chemo-agent . . .
Some say grease patties are BEST! Your right, "menthol in cold weather" is useless.

For that matter, my grease patties are not consumed very well in cold weather. I have found a patty installed in late fall still untouched in eary spring. (I can check my hive notes and give exact date if needed.)

"Best" treatment (if needed) is probably menthol in (warm) fall.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

My contention is that use of menthol, as a mite control, is a waste of money and time.

"It's your thang, do what you want ta do."

Mark


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

so k-wing is caused by T-mites? i was always told that it was caused by V-mites. But how would a T-Mite cause K-wing? i guess we learn something new all the time. Nick


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Its not that the grease patty in fall goes used or unused. Its the point that "if" your going to use a grease patty, it needs to be used all year long. Its a t-mite control or suppression measure, and not really a treatment measure to be used after you have problems. It will not eliminate t-mites all at once as some chemical and other treatments may.

The "slick" part I think goes along with the idea of oil products in general enhancing grooming and hygenic behavior. I have seen FGMO, olive oil spread on the top bars, grease patties, and other oil based products have good results in the hive. Not eliminating or knocking the numbers down to nothing, but more along the lines of suppression. I also believe that smoking with certain material coats the bees with a residue that enhances groming behavior. I think the t-mites, and the secondary benefits in regards to v-mites through enhanced grooming behavior is well worth throwing a grease patty in a hive. I also belive that if you do use products as mentioned above, that a screen bottom board is a must to capitalize on the benefit.


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## SUKIE (Apr 4, 2002)

We have not treated for T/Mites for 10 years or better. We do use black queens only from breeders who breed to combat this type of problem with this type of mite. Come to think of it I have a hard time thinking of any one who does treat for this mite any longer.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I know lots of beekeepers that do not treat for t-mites. And I would also say that the about 1 in a hundred has ever sent bees in for testing, ot have done it themselves. I would imagine some have t-mites and don't know it, while others have treated for nothing.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Deformed wings are usually a sign of Varroa (DWV). "K" wings are usually a sign of Tracheal mites. Both involve mites and wings.


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

I don't see what you all are seeing.  
But it is not the first time that's happened.








Thanks
Mark

[ December 31, 2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: mwjohnson ]


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

Hey,I CAN see them now,








Mark


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## B100B101 (May 14, 2005)

It's her left wing?

I can't clearly tell. 

But wow, are you guys/gals an amazing fountain of information. That's why I love hanging out here


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>you guys/gals an amazing fountain of information..

Some of it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.


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## B100B101 (May 14, 2005)

Hi Dick Allen,

I agree, re grain of salt. 

But, please, can you educate me about K-wings? Was I correct in thinking it's her left wing?

Best wishes and Happy New Year to you way up in Alaska!


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>can you educate me about K-wings? 

Sorry, wish I could. What's been said is about what I know. It's generally thought to be from tracheal mite infestations. Dianna Sammataro does mention it as a possible symptom of nosema, and there is an occasional mention of such things as APV 

It is difficult to find any conclusive information on the cause in the literature or on the internet. It is most often referred to as a symptom of a mite or virus infection. Acute paralysis virus (APV) may cause such a condition, and this virus is known to be spread by varroa mites.

You can go here and page down 4 or 5 screens for another photo and a few more remarks on K-Wings.

http://www.wildwoodlabs.com/viewer.php?article_id=118

>Was I correct in thinking it's her left wing?

yes, and notice it is the HIND wing that is swept FORWARD. 

.....and especially dont forget to take what I say with a grain of salt, too....


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