# Can a laying worker colony build queen cells?



## fluvanna (Jul 11, 2009)

I have a colony which I believe is a laying worker colony. I've tried putting in queen cells and various other possible solutions, to no avail. It's about 5 or 6 frames of bees.

I haven't been able to spot a queen and believed it was a laying worker colony. But it could perhaps be a very small, weak queen that I haven't been able to spot. The thing that's confusing me is that I'm seeing the start of queen cells, filled with royal jelly. Will a laying queen colony ever try to build queen cells with the drone eggs? Or, do I still have a queen in there? Thanks for your help -


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

I have read that they will sometimes build a queen cell with an un-fertile egg, but i've never seen it.


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## Beeonefarms (Nov 22, 2013)

it could happen just wouldnt be viable..


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## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

advice here:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm
I don't think just putting in queen cells works. I think you need to suppress the laying worker(s) first. Add a frame of brood each week and eventually the colony will raise a queen from that.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Yes.

http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#maleeggsinroyalcells
http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#onlymaleeggs

And sometimes they are even viable, but I would certainly not plan on it:
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...n-a-strain-of-us-honey-bees-apis-mellifera-l/


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Some beekeepers believe a laying worker hive might move a fertile egg from another hive to raise a queen.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Research thelytoky. Sorry they don't move eggs.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Beepro of Sacramento, CA has a good method for dealing with laying workers. 

He places a mature queen cell in a comb of emerging brood and makes a "Laidlaw cage" out of the whole frame, covering it with window screen. The emerging brood accept her, leading the others to accept her, and then her brood outlive the laying workers. 

It takes a few weeks for things to get back to normal, and I expect the additional drone load on the colony might require feeding if the nectar flow isn't thumping, but this is my conjecture only.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've had much more luck introducing queen cells to laying worker hives than introducing laying queens. It often works out well.


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

Just got a laying worker colony queen right. The colony killed a caged queen. I gave them a grafted cell it hatched but was lost in mating; when I checked it a couple of weeks after verifying the hatched cell it was full of drone layers. I gave them brood three consecutive weeks but they drew no queen cells. On week two I gave them a three day old cell. They worked on it some then tore it down. I added another frame that week. There were still drone layers at that point. Last week I had some virgins that hatched early so I tried to release one in the entrance but they tried to attack her. I caged her, placed her over the hole in the top cover, placed the lid on and released her the next day. Checked today and she was laying. I have had some success direct releasing virgins after a few weeks of adding brood. Sometimes it takes several tries.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> Yes.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#maleeggsinroyalcells
> Ihttp://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#onlymaleeggs
> ...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>why hasn't anyone spent more time on this and try to breed for this trait ? 

I suppose if we all left laying worker hives to their demise we would breed for it, but its too long of a shot... Dee Lusby's bees seem to do it the a significant amount of the time. But everyone assumes they are Africanized and don't want to breed from them. I know they are not as nice as what I want... so I'll have to just get by with bees I have to requeen when they go laying worker...

My guess is that when it does happen we usually miss it as it takes a lot of attention to be sure that is what occurred.


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

Earlier this year, I had a friend with a colony that was laying worker for at least 3-4 weeks. I gave it a frame of open brood, and then a queen cell the next day and it worked just fine.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >why hasn't anyone spent more time on this and try to breed for this trait ?
> 
> I suppose if we all left laying worker hives to their demise we would breed for it, but its too long of a shot... Dee Lusby's bees seem to do it the a significant amount of the time. But everyone assumes they are Africanized and don't want to breed from them. I know they are not as nice as what I want... so I'll have to just get by with bees I have to requeen when they go laying worker...
> 
> My guess is that when it does happen we usually miss it as it takes a lot of attention to be sure that is what occurred.



I've seen some YouTube videos of her, could some of that agrrssion be from the way she handles them ? . She doesn't appear to be none too gentle with them lol


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

One time when we were with a bunch of beekeepers going through Dees yards early in the season.

There was one hive that looked queenless. A commercial beekeeper from Canada was with us and really wanted to grab a frame of brood from another hive....this was probably early march.

Dees response was, "no...if I have a high level of thyletoky in my bees, why would I want to select against it?"

The Cape bee has workers that will lay fertile queens in other hives (including mellifera) in order to supercede/take over...considered a parasite. I've heard a few reports of Cape bee like colonies in florida but we don't officially have them in the states.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

deknow - There is a good chance some _Capensis_ genetics were brought over to South America during the 1956 experiment that resulted in the AHB. Some of those colonies transported to South America were from South Africa (and thus could have been A.M. _scutellata_ crosses with A.M. _capensis_), others came from farther up the Great Rift Valley.

This could possibly explain the reports of the Cape Bee-like colonies in Florida, and possibly the thelytoky in the Lusby's bees, if they have some AHB genetics.

Just speculation...it would take a genetic study to determine if this were the case.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> I've had much more luck introducing queen cells to laying worker hives than introducing laying queens. It often works out well.


Queen cells and eggs and brood are a sure path to success.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>could some of that agrrssion be from the way she handles them ? 

Yes.

> She doesn't appear to be none too gentle with them lol 

She is not.


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