# I may be done with TBH too



## Marsh (Aug 17, 2010)

Hi, Sorry to hear about your problem with Top Bars, but don't give up. Perhaps you have done something easy to correct. I am just beginning with Top Bars and don't think it will be that difficult. Have you put a "starter" strip in your Top Bars? I plan to use strips of foundation on some Top Bars, use strips of wood, etc. on other Top Bars to guide the bees. Also, have you checked them at least once per week and cut out any cross combing? What is the width of your Top Bars? If you started a package of bees with more than 10 Top Bars available to them, that may be the problem. Hope this helps. There is a solution to every problem. Try to find another Top Bar Beekeeper in your area who can help you. Good luck!


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## milena (Apr 6, 2010)

Interesting - I did use close to two dozen bars. I will try reducing the number available. Thanks for that tip.

I did have guides and wax on the guides - my bars are pointed on the inside if that makes sense. 

No TBH'ers around here apparently - all the local association people gave me the hairy eyeball!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Milena, have you got even just two nicely built combs?

If so, put them in the middle of the main bee activity and put one empty bar between them. The bees will be "forced" to build the new comb nice and straight.

Gradually work your rubbishy combs outwards to the honey area with a veiw to their eventual removal. Just keep feeding, one at a time, empty bars in between two good combs. If they are getting a little out of whack, don't be afraid to give them a poke with your finger to straighten them back up.

Patience is a virtue especially in beekeeping. Persist, and eventually you will have the TBH you want. You will then also have the knowledge to keep it that way.


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## bigevilgrape (Aug 21, 2008)

Just another thought, is your hive level? Front to back more then side to side. It might be worth checking again to see if things have settled since you originally set up the hive.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> But I have a LOT of cross combing.


Cross combing can turn a newbie off of TBH's about as fast as a dung pile can attract flies! You want the bees to start building on and follow the guides you give them. For a newbie we want the one that is going to give the very best results first crack out of the box. 3/4" foundation starter strips would be my choice and recommendation for the beginner. We hear of many styles of starters and guides that work good and then we hear of poor results from many of them. It's not very often we hear that the bees aren't following foundation starters.

If you can build a couple of frames you should be able to cut a few of the crossed combs lose and fit them into the frames. Before the bees expand their nest too much take as many/much of the cross combs out. Cut attachments on the side walls and pull the remaining combs that the bees occupy away from the entrance. Place the combs that you put into the frames (entrance end) in front of the combs the bees are on. The bees will expand and reorient the brood nest near the entrance on the new combs built on bars with foundation starter strips.

If the combs that you placed into the frames are very wavy or curved you can straighten then with a blow dryer, flat surface and a piece of plywood. Warm the comb just enough that will allow you to straighten it out between the ply wood and flat surface. Be gentle and don't melt it, warm just enough that you can move it to straight.


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## milena (Apr 6, 2010)

Delta Bay said:


> Cross combing can turn a newbie off of TBH's about as fast as a dung pile can attract flies!


LOL

Thanks for the tips! Love the idea of warming and straightening the comb. And rotating the messy comb to the outside for honey and removal.

Another odd thing they did is start more than one comb on a bar - two combs going diagonally.

Yes the hive seems very level.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

One bad comb leads to another.

One good comb leads to another.

If you build some frames to tie the crooked ones you have into you can straighten things out. If you make sure the last comb (just before where the bees will be building) is straight and in the bar, you have a high probability of another straight comb. If your last comb is crooked, I guarantee the next will be crooked.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> Another odd thing they did is start more than one comb on a bar - two combs going diagonally.


If they go off the guides this can happen. There are may degrees of cross combing from slightly diagonal but still on one bar to 90 degrees of the guides. In all cases it won't get better without taking action. 

It is only the combs that will take your bees into winter and into the next spring buildup that need to be on individual bars. It doesn't really matter if the combs that you will harvest intrude on the adjacent bar as these honey combs can be cut from the hive and placed into the harvest bucket.

milena, I think you should at least try this season to straighten things up in your TBH if for no other reason other than the learning experience. Look at it as an opportunity to understand the bees rather than a big fat mess. If things work out you can be proud and if not you know you made an effort. Either way it's all good!

If you have trouble ask for help. There are plenty on the forum that will! A friendly experienced local Lang Keeper can be very helpful also.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

"...seems very level..." might not be the same as IS level, especially if you cannot compare your hive to the distant horizon, a roof peak, or other reference in the nearby environment that one could expect to be fairly level.

If you do not have a builder's level to check your hive, fill a large-ish clear or translucent container with a few inches of water. You want to be able to see the water through the sides of the container. 

Set the container on top of your hive if it has a flat roof -- or in front of the hive on a box if the roof isn't flat enough to support the container. The water surface will be truly level and will give you something accurate to compare.

--DeeAnna


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## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

DeeAnna said:


> If you do not have a builder's level to check your hive, fill a large-ish clear or translucent container with a few inches of water. You want to be able to see the water through the sides of the container.
> 
> Set the container on top of your hive if it has a flat roof -- or in front of the hive on a box if the roof isn't flat enough to support the container. The water surface will be truly level and will give you something accurate to compare.
> 
> --DeeAnna


Another thing to do if you don't have a long enough level is to use a clear plastic tube often as a level when checking a largish area. Put a few drops of food color in some water (there's something else you can also add to reduce internal friction of the water in the plastic tube, but I forgot what that is at the moment). Use duct tape to secure each end of the tube to each end of your TBH sticking a few inches above. Fill tube with the colored water and compare the water line on each end (matters not what the tube is doing between the two high points, as long as it stays below them and perhaps out from under the stand. Oh, don't step on it, either.). Raise or lower each end of the hive as needed until the water line is the same distance above the hive on each end. Do the same side to side, and you've got a level hive.

B


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## bigevilgrape (Aug 21, 2008)

If you want to break the surface tension of the water you can add some dish soap to it.


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## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

bigevilgrape said:


> dish soap


Right! I knew it was something readily at hand, but was having a half-timers moment.


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## milena (Apr 6, 2010)

Follow up to original post - I took the advice about the hair dryer. I cut the combs to fit together, used a hairdryer to adjust them and adhere them to one another, and replaced them in the hive - the bees made them into beautiful, straight comb. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Excellent! I hope you have found renewed encouragement to continue on with the TBH. What you have dealt with is really the most difficult aspect of the hive. Good job!


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

I used small starter strips of foundation stapled to the top bars. I also made sure it was level. The package bees i installed in a brand new top bar drew out nicely spaced comb on those strips.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Why dont TBH beeks make frames the same shape as the hive? Seems like you could extract easier as well.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The appeal of a top bar hive is like the appeal of a long bow. Simplicity. If you take a bow and arrow and add some fiberglass arrows, and plastic fetching, and a laser sight, and a mechanical release, then what is the point? If you take a top bar hive and build frames and put a SBB on it with a removable tray and some fancy ventilation system for the roof and a slatted rack on the bottom, and slatted follower boards, and regular follower boards, and a window on the side... it starts to become a complex thing rather than a simple thing.


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> The appeal of a top bar hive is like the appeal of a long bow. Simplicity. If you take a bow and arrow and add some fiberglass arrows, and plastic fetching, and a laser sight, and a mechanical release, then what is the point? If you take a top bar hive and build frames and put a SBB on it with a removable tray and some fancy ventilation system for the roof and a slatted rack on the bottom, and slatted follower boards, and regular follower boards, and a window on the side... it starts to become a complex thing rather than a simple thing.


I must say that is well said and I agree completely. I went down the "fancy" road on one of my hives before I got back on track with the "beauty of simplicity".


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Whats easier than a simple frame? Should I replace my phone with two soup cans and a string? It is much simplier. I never thought of my frames as "fancy".


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## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

MJC417 said:


> Whats easier than a simple frame?


No frame. 
Part of the point of a TBH is not to reuse comb. No frame, no expensive extractor, no heavy boxes, on and on. Nothing wrong with frames, extractors, boxes, etc, but if you want to use them, there's a wonderful system out there that already uses all those things. OTOH if you wanna build a TBH with framed bars, that's awesome. Patent the system, get it to work great and make fistfuls of dollars.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

I must prefer working without frames in horizontal top bar hives. I roll less bees, I move just as quick, and I can more easily crush and strain. I find using a fruit press to be more efficient than a hand cranked extractor. Plus I don't need frames!

Cheers,
Matt


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

So if you dont want to reuse comb, I just cut it out of the frame. I just dont see the difference between 1 piece of wood over 4. I dont think the other 3 pieces are a burden. Im trying to understand the advantage, I may want one some day. But I dont plan on making fists full of dollars if I make frames for a TBH.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

You can make a frame, MJC417. But it's a lot harder to make frames than to not make them. You can make a complete kenyan top bar hive in a day easily in their typical form. Once you get into frames, you have a lot more cuts and connections to make, and that does complicate things. No one's saying you can't do it. - just why do it? 

No one's going to make a fistful of dollars building frames for a top bar hive. Because people use top bars because of their simplicity and lack of expense. They don't need frames. 

I see plenty of advantages to frames, but when I think of using them, I think of using a langstroth, or a horizontal hive with lang frames. Top bar hives are a different animal. And there's not much point to trying to make them the same thing in a different shape.

At least none that I can see. Unless you can come up with a frame type that's super simple to make.

Adam


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Did you go out and get your hives PERFECTLY level? I think that has a lot to do with it if they're ignoring the guides on your bars.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Frames are the only tricky thing to build in a hive. The rest is rough carpentry. Frames are "cabinet work".


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Well its a lot easier not to keep bees than keep them.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

So build your frames.


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