# Combining for Super Production Colony



## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

The premise that two colonies with 30k bees make less honey than one colony with 60k bees is well established. What I am curious about is how many bees makes too big of a colony? 120k? 200k? 
I already steal brood from nucs to make two-deep brood production hives before the flow. I was thinking that I would much rather be supering half as many colonies by combining them before flow and resting the "harvested" hive's queen in a small nuc. But that depends on potentially diminishing honey returns from too large of a colony.
I suppose the question is can a colony be too large for production?


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

When it swarms before you control it and lose the production you were trying to gain it's too big.
All depends on the management.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

John Davis said:


> *When it swarms* before you control it and lose the production you were trying to gain it's too big.
> All depends on the management.


Simply cage the queen(s) - she'll go nowhere.
You can make it as big as you can manage.
As long as you can manage it.


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## Beejiujitsu (Oct 1, 2021)

The larger the colony, the more susceptible to disease, especially varroa mite vectored viruses.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I've read of experimenting/testing done that determined 50/60K bees is best/max. Larger than that becomes too large for a variety of reasons. I think the figure was 50K being optimal.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Ray, if you can point me to the study, I would really appreciate reading it


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

AramF said:


> I was thinking that I would much rather be supering half as many colonies by combining them before flow


I do something like that. In 2 yards I have stands that have 3 hives on each stand. Just as the flow starts, I move the outside hives about 100 feet away and the foragers come back to the only hive left on the stand.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

RayMarler said:


> I've read of experimenting/testing done that determined 50/60K bees is best/max. Larger than that becomes too large for a variety of reasons. I think the figure was 50K being optimal.


21 days x 2k eggs per day gives ~42k bees + still alive bees from the previous brood cycle. 50k seems to be a quite natural size.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

AramF said:


> Ray, if you can point me to the study, I would really appreciate reading it


I'm so sorry, I would if I could but I can't so I won't. I've read so many materials over the years that I can't remember over half or more of what I read where. It may be that like @jgoral said, that's about the largest optimal size that a natural hive can get, given the brooding amount - die off amount of bees during the peak of the season. Of course we can boost that number with manipulation and it may be that larger numbers can be attained to benefit a flow. I do know that larger healthy hives pull in more honey, not sure of a limit if too much is detrimental in any way.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

I might just do a study next year to see if there is a difference. most of my bees are on a 2 hive pallet, I would just need to compare the results of two colony pallet vs double colony pallet. If the results justify it, it maybe be another way of going. Split in early spring, raise two colonies, combine before the main flow. Avert swarming, and then get larger crop.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

I now run Resource Hives/Palmer Nucs all year long with great success. There are plenty of studies showing more production from multiqueen hives. 

6 brood frames seems to be about the right size in a multiqueen environment. Keep them separated by excluders and it seems you can choose whatever configuration you would like.

I am almost exclusively in nucs now and was using 3-6f deeps under 10f supers. I didn't like inspections and having yet another sized box so I switched over to the present arrangement.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Do you winter as 6 over 6?


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

I think Steve is replicating Ian Steppler's setup. qty 3 6-frame nucs, 2 excluders and qty 2 10-frame supers over excluders for honey harvest. Those nucs are roughly 11 inches wide. I have those too. I made mine 10.5 inches tall, rather than 9.25, glued the bottoms and caulked them. I can pour a gallon of syrup straight into the nuc and bees take it up into the frames in no time. Most of the time I pour a quart jar. No drowning because frame bottoms are right there. 1.5 inch hole entrance mid way, that I can cap with a yellow plug. I am really grateful to Ian for sharing the initial design on his YouTube channel.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

I used to winter in 3 deep. I also ran 2 queen hives for a while.
4 deeps if 8F and 3 if 10f Is a good max size. 1 queen or 2. 2 gets the population there faster.
in general I needed a ladder to place the lid on them.

bigger than that seemed to add a lot more work and not get too much more results.
add in aggression and tipping over and going up and down ladders with supers.

the 2 queen setup in the book "the hive and the honey bee" is what I did.

the Side by side 2 queen I have not done it may be less tippy and still offer good results.

BTW you cannot do these in or near *your* NUC yard, they go robber really easy. 

GG


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

AramF said:


> I think Steve is replicating Ian Steppler's setup.


Yes. I also tried 5's under 8f supers. That is what lead me to believe 6f broodnest is the optimum. 6's under 10's were very productive but inspecting & treating the middle box was just too difficult.

I have found the side by side Palmer Nucs sharing supers to be the optimum arrangement for my location and beekeeping style. You can stack supers to the moon if you wish.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Steve in PA said:


> Yes. I also tried 5's under 8f supers. That is what lead me to believe 6f broodnest is the optimum. 6's under 10's were very productive but inspecting & treating the middle box was just too difficult.
> 
> I have found the side by side Palmer Nucs sharing supers to be the optimum arrangement for my location and beekeeping style. You can stack supers to the moon if you wish.


Steve do you do 10 frames for the queen or 5?
I was thinking of a side by side 6 frame, with a 12 frame super, or a necked down 10F

GG


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Gray Goose said:


> Steve do you do 10 frames for the queen or 5?
> I was thinking of a side by side 6 frame, with a 12 frame super, or a necked down 10F
> 
> GG


5's didn't work well for production under 8's. They just never thrived because the broodnest was just slightly too small. Now almost all my hives are 4f nucs stacked two deep for 8 frames of broodnest but arranged vertically instead of horizontally like traditional hives.

In the same footprint as a 10f traditional I get more production than 2 8f traditional hives. Another positive is that this spring I will be selling one side, 8f, in my old 8f gear for a premium. The seller will get 1st year production instead of waiting for year 2.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Found some pics. 5's under 8's & 6's under 10's.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

I was reading some more about this issue online, it seems that researches in Eastern Russia (Siberia Region) concluded that most production per bee is achieved in families between 8 and 9 Kilograms of bees. So that's roughly 20 lb. Two deep brood chambers should achieve that easily. 

GreyGoose, you wrote '4 deeps if 8F and 3 if 10f Is a good max size. 1 queen or 2. 2 gets the population there faster. '. That seems to be right there in line with their research.


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## Outdoor N8 (Aug 7, 2015)

The 'problem' with stacking them to the moon is, eventually you pay the Piper!








Steve, I am with you; inspecting the middle of a 3-6F is a pain once supers go on! After that happens, they get inspected only once the honey is pulled.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

AramF said:


> I was reading some more about this issue online, it seems that researches in Eastern Russia (Siberia Region) concluded that most production per bee is achieved in families between 8 and 9 Kilograms of bees. So that's roughly 20 lb. Two deep brood chambers should achieve that easily.
> 
> GreyGoose, you wrote '4 deeps if 8F and 3 if 10f Is a good max size. 1 queen or 2. 2 gets the population there faster. '. That seems to be right there in line with their research.


Aram,
in a 3 deep roughly 30-32 frames, there will be 3 or 4 of honey and 3 or 4 of pollen blocking cells. partials like 1/4 to 1/3 frame.
so the 20 frames of empty I would agree with, but many a hive is not that empty.
And I want the stores there for winter as I am in a cold climate.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Outdoor N8 said:


> The 'problem' with stacking them to the moon is, eventually you pay the Piper!
> View attachment 71602
> 
> 
> Steve, I am with you; inspecting the middle of a 3-6F is a pain once supers go on! After that happens, they get inspected only once the honey is pulled.


hmm
you inspect during the flow.
queen rite, mites good, flow on, stack and walk away.
I almost never inspect production hives once, I add the second super.
either you did it right or you did not......let it ride.

GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> hmm
> you inspect during the flow.
> queen rite, mites good, flow on, stack and walk away.
> I almost never inspect production hives once, I add the second super.
> ...


...and you can do OAV without opening the hive. Just in the case


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