# mite out break



## larrymn (Sep 3, 2011)

talked to a guy from our bee club and he said he had heard of a out break with mites any news on this?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Hmm, well if you mean _varroa _mites, they are pretty much everywhere in the continental US, even in Minnesota. That _mite _(get it? ) be why the University of Minnesota published this pamphlet on how to sample for varroa mites:

http://www.beelab.umn.edu/prod/groups/cfans/@pub/@cfans/@bees/documents/asset/cfans_asset_381124.pdf


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## larrymn (Sep 3, 2011)

yes I ,know mites are everywhere and I know how to test for them a few ways. It was just that he told me it was a big out break and maybe people that dont use chemicals might have to. But I got a feeling he was talking about when we get our packages in the spring. They come from calif.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i wonder if he was talking about tracheal mites instead. varroa mites are usually a much bigger problem in the summer and fall, but i haven't heard of any unusual outbreaks of either kind.


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## BeeManiac (Feb 26, 2012)

All i know is that ive lost 20 hives this year. All my Nucs are fine and the only ones ive lost are production hives. To this point my apairies have been all ferel stock. They usually fend off the mites. I dont know whats going on but im down to 49 hives and kinda frustrated about rebuilding in the spring. I did buy some queens last year but they are in the nucs. All of the dead out clusters have plenty of honey and just a fist full of bees frozen. They were all busting in the fall. It has to be varroa destructer.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

man that's tough bm. are you going to try anything different this time around?


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## BeeManiac (Feb 26, 2012)

Well, I think we are all faced with 2 choices. Treat our bees and never let them build up tolerence against varroa or let them sort it out. Obviously some of my hives are hygenic enough to handle it. Last year i only lost a couple with no treatment. Im not sure what went wrong this year. It is what it is =) It sure does suck when it goes wrong...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yeah. it would be nice to know how many mites are too many and mean almost certain death for a colony.

do you think the problem could have started with one or two and spread to the others?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It's a numbers game, hygenic behavior only goes so far and at a certain mite population the colony will collapse because too much brood is being lost by bees cleaning them out and/or mite pressure is killing them regardless. Then the cluster slowly shrinks through winter as the older bees die off or leave with mites.


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## Markwell (Jan 17, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> It's a numbers game, hygenic behavior only goes so far and at a certain mite population the colony will collapse because too much brood is being lost by bees cleaning them out and/or mite pressure is killing them regardless. Then the cluster slowly shrinks through winter as the older bees die off or leave with mites.


Indeed. You need to treat that in some way to help the bees.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

BeeManiac said:


> All i know is that ive lost 20 hives this year. All my Nucs are fine


This pattern follows what MP talks about often; He doesn't treat nucs but does treat production hives.

Mel Disselkoen takes it a step farther and says production hives given a QC and broodbreak in July don't need treatments either. He also states since that is the most common time for bees to supersede, many folks think a survivor hive has superior genetics when in fact it was the natural brood break that saved the hive.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

Mel Disselkoen makes a lot of sense and the reason I'm splitting in July with walk away splits. Breaking the cycle is usually a good answer to most pests of all kinds across the spectrum. When the chain is left unbroken is usually when booms occur which overwhelm. Swarming may just be the closest thing to "naturally" dealing with the mites. To me, walk away splits simulate this for at least half the split. Maybe queen sequestering would work for the other half to keep brood limited and away from drone production thus knocking the mites back.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Nature Coast beek said:


> I'm splitting in July with walk away splits.


Be very careful. Queenless splits in July in Florida strikes me as a recipe for small hive beetle mayhem.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

On the issue of swarming possibly being the way bees treat themselves for mites.
I have seen information that the break in brood to a large degree starts well before actually swarming. possible weeks before. Think about the back filling of the brood nest that is commonly known to happen. how is this effecting the mite? Mites are coming out of cells on emerging brood but finding no cells to enter or doing so to many mites per cell etc. This all is leading up to a reduction of mites do to being over populated in the hive that is producing fewer and fewer places for them to go. keeping many of them exposed to being groomed or chewed by the bees. Ending in a period of no brood for a period of time.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

beemandan said:


> Be very careful. Queenless splits in July in Florida strikes me as a recipe for small hive beetle mayhem.


I'm curious why a brood break promotes SHB Dan. Is this local to the southern states or a general rule?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

larrymn said:


> talked to a guy from our bee club and he said he had heard of a out break with mites any news on this?


What do you mean by "out break"?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> On the issue of swarming possibly being the way bees treat themselves for mites.


Daniel, whereas swarming my result in what appears to be an effective manner of addressing Varroa mite infestation, a colony of bees doesn't swarm because of Mite presence.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

DonShackelford said:


> I'm curious why a brood break promotes SHB Dan. Is this local to the southern states or a general rule?


I think he is referring to a decrease in overall bee population as a result of the brood break. A strong hive has a much better chance of containing SHB, a weak hive... no chance. And yes... it is kind of a southern thing.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

DonShackelford said:


> I'm curious why a brood break promotes SHB Dan. Is this local to the southern states or a general rule?


.
A southern thing to be sure. The further south, the worse the problem. SHB are an epidemic in Florida…where the poster I replied to lists as home.
It isn't the brood break that causes the problem...
Basically a midsummer, queenless split is a double whammy from an shb perspective. First, by midsummer shb populations are at their peak. The best defense is an extremely strong, populous, queenright bee colony. So following the split you are left with a weakened parent colony and a relatively weak split. Because the split is queenless, the bees tend to be much less protective of the nest and it creates an extra opportunity for these pests.


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## larrymn (Sep 3, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> What do you mean by "out break"?


not sure what he meant but I will see him this sunday and ask and let ya know. I am thinking that he was refuring to the package bees we get from calif that they have a good chance of having lots of mites on them and ya might have to treat right away when ya get them. Because I believe he said that calif is having a problem with lots of mites in hives, I will find out more info on sunday and post it.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

beemandan said:


> Be very careful. Queenless splits in July in Florida strikes me as a recipe for small hive beetle mayhem.


SHB are certainly an issue, but splitting strongest hives seems to do fine. Last year had good success with July splits. To me, it's more about dearth than beetles but I have no conflicts with feeding.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Daniel, whereas swarming my result in what appears to be an effective manner of addressing Varroa mite infestation, a colony of bees doesn't swarm because of Mite presence.


Mark, I never said they swarm because of mites. that does not mean that swarming does not control mites. A single act can accomplish many things.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

since the lifespan of a female varroa mite is two to three months in the summer, and six to eight months in the winter, i'm not sure how brood breaks and swarms would offer too much in the way of mite control.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I am not so sure I understand how it works. But I see people claiming it does all the time. I have seen information that indicates that crowding of the mites has a negative impact on their ability to reproduce. I can't recall where I saw that though.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> since the lifespan of a female varroa mite is two to three months in the summer, and six to eight months in the winter, i'm not sure how brood breaks and swarms would offer too much in the way of mite control.


It would act similar to drone trapping, starving the mites of opportunity to lay. The total elimination of mites with splitting/swarming would not happen. Nothing different than many other methods including chemical, mites are knocked back to less critical levels. 2 reproductive cycles are achieved by female mites. Splitting/swarming might allow less mites a second chance as well as allowing for less viable male mites. http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~msbain/elbka/Varroa destructor.pdf


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>mites are knocked back...

understood ncb, but so are the bees, and the net % infestation is what is important.

i don't know if much is gained by brood breaks, but then i haven't seen any science on it either.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> On the issue of swarming possibly being the way bees treat themselves for mites.



Okay Daniel, let me put it this way. Bees don't treat themselves for mites.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Varroa mite numbers seemed to be higher this year than what I have seen in the past at least in this part of the country. Maybe that is what he was talking about??


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Have you or someone been gathering statistics from across your part of the country or are you going by what you see in your own hives?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good evening mark. how's it going with your bees this winter?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Serious off topic question? Or, a message?

THey're in good shape. Yours?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

a little off topic i guess, sorry. glad to hear yours are fine.

thankfully mine are in good shape too.


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## BeeManiac (Feb 26, 2012)

So does anyone believe that if i keep down the path I am on that one day i can have surviving hives? Or is that all a big dream?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not sure, but probably not. Talk to Michael Palmer about "The Sustainable Apiary", how he keeps his apiary alive.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

depends who you listen to.

i'm not sure i'm sold on the fact that genetic resistance can be counted on 100%, especially considering most queens are going to be open mated. even the strongest and most resistant bees are going to have a limit on how much they can take, and it is the strongest colonies that are most likely to rob the crashing ones.

i can easily see how just one colony crashing with mites and getting robbed could easily spread the infestation like a domino effect to other colonies in the yard.

as if the mites sucking the hemolymph out of the bees wasn't bad enough, if they are vectoring a very virulent virus as well it could mean the end of an otherwise healthy, productive, and for the most part resistant colony.

plus, allowing mites to crash a colony and move on to another selects for those kind of mites that kill their host, instead of mites that are less virulent and don't crash a colony.

i'll be the first to admit that counting mites has not been a part of my bee management. my bees have been doing fine and have not been treated for mites, and they are descended from bees that have never been treated.

i had my first hive crash to mites this fall. luckily i caught it before it got robbed. there were so few bees and it was so late in the season that i just shook them out.

i plan to use my alcohol jar a lot more going forward. in the spring, i'll want to know what the mite levels are to help me decide which colonies to graft new queens from and which colonies to pinch the queen from and use for splits and mating nucs. in the summer, after the honey harvest, i can requeen colonies with high mite counts or make up nucs to sell or overwinter.

i am hopeful i can propagate my bees in this way and avoid treating for mites. i do think it is risky to not do mite counts and not have a plan in place to deal with a high infestation if you find it. 

beekeeping is not inexpensive and a involves a lot of sweat. letting hives crash costs money, time, and lost harvest. again, i'm not convinced just letting hives die out is the way to go.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> they are descended from bees that have never been treated.


Now...how do you know this?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i bought my bees from a supplier nearby, who has propagated them from feral bees he and his father cut out of the woods over ten years ago. he claims never using treatments of any kind, and he is a very trustworthy fellow.

i guess it's possible the swarms that created those feral colonies may have been treated many years ago, but what i have are long term survivors. this is one reason i would rather not treat them if i can help it.


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

BeeManiac said:


> All i know is that ive lost 20 hives this year. All my Nucs are fine and the only ones ive lost are production hives. To this point my apairies have been all ferel stock. They usually fend off the mites. I dont know whats going on but im down to 49 hives and kinda frustrated about rebuilding in the spring. I did buy some queens last year but they are in the nucs. All of the dead out clusters have plenty of honey and just a fist full of bees frozen. They were all busting in the fall. It has to be varroa destructer.


I just took down 4 hives that were dead and also had just a fist full of bees frozen. They were also some of the strongest hives in that yard. We were very late this year in getting cold weather and I haven't been opening up the hives in the cold weather. I am assuming that what happened is the hives swarmed not long before the first cold weather which was late December. 

I also haven't been monitoring the v.mite count in my hives and maybe its possible that a significant build up of v.mites caused a quick collapse.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

RichardsonTX said:


> I am assuming that what happened is the hives swarmed not long before the first cold weather which was late December.
> 
> that a significant build up of v.mites caused a quick collapse.


Which of these scenarios do you truly believe the most likely?


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

beemandan said:


> Which of these scenarios do you truly believe the most likely?


My lack of experience as a beekeeper keeps me from being able to make a good guess. 

However, I would not think that a hive would swarm that late in the year and it is probably from a v.mite buildup. After this year, my first full year, I don't think I'll ever go treatment free again (at least for all my hives). Maybe I'll take a few and experiment but I'll never manage my hives in a way that goes against the majority opinion.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

My guess would be the same as yours...most likely varroa.


RichardsonTX said:


> I don't think I'll ever go treatment free again


Just so you understand...I don't advise people to treat or not. I recommend that they make the an educated choice and understand the potential consequences of either.
I do advocate using a repeatable method of testing...no matter which course you choose. That way you can make a better evaluation of any losses.


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## lenny bee (Oct 29, 2010)

Latest issue of Bee Culture , has an artical on crowding out mites by keeping the hive as small as you can. Recommend 80% of frames should be covered by bees to help reduce mites.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>However, I would not think that a hive would swarm that late in the year ......

not likely, especially four out of the same yard.

you might be able to figure it out when you get a chance to look at the comb real good.

post pictures if you can.


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

lenny bee said:


> Latest issue of Bee Culture , has an artical on crowding out mites by keeping the hive as small as you can. Recommend 80% of frames should be covered by bees to help reduce mites.


I think that article is about small hive beetles, and the need for a populous hive to defend the comb.
I don't think it is about crowding out mites.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I don't know how well you do with graphs. some people have no problem with them. others can't see anything in them. I am of the former. IF you scroll down this page. http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0032151 there is a chart that shows actual measured levels of mites in colonies. The black bar is the colonies that where not treated, 11 of them and all died. 2 treated hives died by the end of February due to queen failure.

What I see in this is that hives that where the strongest in Sept dwindled and completely died out by the end of December. It does give at least one visual as to just how quick a decline could be. the population has already fallen below the treated hives after just one month. But I am not sure this woudl be enough of a difference to stand out during an inspection. This means your strongest hive in September. woudl still look strong in October. and be completely dead by the end of December.

According to this report. What would tell you your hive is dying? Mite counts.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

That is why I use the http://www.mdasplitter.com/ technique!

Don't have to worry about treatments and the nucs I made the year before replace the colonies that don't make it thru the winter. Sounds tough and it is, but once you have enough colony numbers to work with you don't have to struggle trying to keep a few colonies alive and keep buying replacements if they don't.

Every beekeeper needs to find the technique that works best for them and that can be a long hard road and an expensive one to boot or giving up entirely on keeping bees.
The above technique has been working for me and with colony expansion and selling nucs for the last 6 years so I can't say that it doesn't work!
I used to be on the med band wagon when I first started with bees and did for several years after but then decided to try Mel's techniques and I have been using them ever since.
But listen to all the advice from the beekeepers on this forum as there years of knowledge/experience will save you a lot of headaches, weed thru it all and find out what works best for you and in your area.


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