# Fumagilian-B



## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Yes, still using Fumagilan, but feeding thymol crystals in all my syrup


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

We have always used it as a preventative measure spring and fall.
it is expensive though so this spring i decided not to use it.
we had a test done in June and there were zero spores of either kind of nosema, but we only took samples from one yard.(it was FDA funded study so it was free)

even though still putting it in the syrup this fall.

Marla Spivak said we should all stop using it and let the bee's work it out just like tracheal mites.

there is something wrong with the bee's right now but i think its a bad year for varroa


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

We have a new additive in our sub that target's the gut pathogens like nosema, it builds the good xyz in the mid gut of the bee. I was just wondering how many folks still fed fumagilian.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

My feeling is that overwintered bees in northern climes are more susceptible to Nosema than are bees in warmer climes. I used Fumidil for a couple years and really saw that the numbers went down dramatically.........in my bank account. Honestly we had lower readings in our bees without treatment than we had when we were treating. Our recent tests were 6 of 8 samples were negative and two very low positives and thats with no treatments of any kind. Just one guys opinion in one set of circumstances.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Keith,
Here's a product made by CONKLIN that's called FASTRACK.
It might bear looking at.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Fumagilian is much like Tiger repealant in Wisconsin. 

Some times it is hard to see an effect, but if it is needed, worth the cost. The trick is knowing WHEN it is needed.

Crazy Roland


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

from Bee L


.) ...it is interesting to note what Zachary Huang's lab discovered
(ABJ abstract #14) about feeding fumagillin to honey bees to control
Nosema ceranae. In their studies, they found that the antibiotic impacts
both the parasite and the protein makeup of the honey bee intestinal
tract. In fact, as the level of fumagillin decreases in the bees over
time, it reaches a low level which actually stimulates spore production
of N. ceranae. A similar effect is seen with N. apis, but it is not
nearly so pronounced._It could be that the low levels of fumagillin may
be suppressing the honey bee immune system. The use of fumagillin as a
last resort cancer treatment in mammals severely impairs their immune

system


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## Scott Klein (Sep 13, 2012)

irwin harlton said:


> from Bee L
> 
> 
> .) ...it is interesting to note what Zachary Huang's lab discovered
> ...


Not to detract from the direct effects to bees, but I'm curious if there have been studies of the quality of the honey produced. Like exposure to fungicides, wouldn't an antibiotic result in a lower flora (microbe/enzyme) honey, via reducing the flora in the honey stomach?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Honestly we had lower readings in our bees without treatment than we had when we were treating.

That would be consistent with the most recent research which shows that it kills off the bacteria that make a biofilm that protect their gut from Nosema...

> I'm curious if there have been studies of the quality of the honey produced. Like exposure to fungicides, wouldn't an antibiotic result in a lower flora (microbe/enzyme) honey, via reducing the flora in the honey stomach?

I don't know about the quality of the honey, but it does disrupt the flora in their stomach and make them MORE susceptible to Nosema as well as other diseases.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188

But really worries me is that no one seems to care that it causes birth defects in mammals and has been outlawed in most civilized countries of the world because of that.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

benstung said:


> there is something wrong with the bee's right now but i think its a bad year for varroa


it's now late January 13


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

and?


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## Scott Klein (Sep 13, 2012)

I've been told that the concentrations of active ingredients vary (significantly) in Fumagillin, leading to a slightly over-dose application recommendation; to avoid under-dosing and thus developing resistance. I suppose the answer is posted here somewhere, but can anyone confirm this?


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

I put the lemongrass product from Mann lake in all my syrup and sub. It's real spendy but ever since I started using it... never had nosema problems. It sure was a killer before.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

fumagillian is one of those treatments I hate using the most


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## Scott J. (Feb 6, 2007)

I don't use it. 

I looked a fellow beekeepers bees two weeks ago and he had some bad nosema problems. He drenched them with fumagilian last fall. He looked at my bees and said all he did was waste a lot of money.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I used it for a couple of years (during the great Nosema Ceranae) scare. I quit about 3 years ago. The first fall after I got results from testing the state of SD did which showed my levels at or near 0, I called and talked to Bob Reiners our state inspector to find out what he was generally seeing around the state. the first thing he asked me was "what are you doing to get numbers that low?". I said ummmmmm nothing Bob. He told me there were lots of high readings around the state and assumed I must be doing something different. I just said I dunno, I don't have a clue. Haven't used since nor have I gotten any high readings. My conclusion is when I was using Fumidil that the only count that it seemed to affect was my bank account.


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

I used it also during the big scare. after spending thousands of dollars to treat all my hives I just went without it and they all look great.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> We have a new additive in our sub that target's the gut pathogens like nosema, it builds the good xyz in the mid gut of the bee. I was just wondering how many folks still fed fumagilian.


Prebiotitics, probiotics, and competitive inhibition of pathogens.. Who woulda thunk after all these years? Glad to see the subject has gone full circle. 

In some circles one could be vilified for even suggesting not using fumagilin. This is a material that has been around a long time and is a leftover from a time when we thought Nosema was a protozoa and not a microsporidian. It seems silly to use the wrong material for the wrong critter. Somebody is making big bank on it.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

So I have read down the answers to this thread and have one comment:
No wonder our national "winter losses" are where they are.
WOW!!!
We use Fumigillian as directed in spring and fall.
When your "winter losses" break our record, ( 2.6% in 2010) we may try not using it.
This year: < 6% .
Do you suppose we could have done better if we had not used Fumigillian?
How did you do this winter?


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Spore counts don't lie...

As we come to understand the biology of this pest there will be/have been breakthroughs. There is more than one way to skin the cat.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

HarryVanderpool said:


> So I have read down the answers to this thread and have one comment:
> No wonder our national "winter losses" are where they are.
> WOW!!!
> We use Fumigillian as directed in spring and fall.
> ...


Well it tells me is that you are doing a LOT of things right. I would guess that your losses would probably have been higher without treatment but then it would just be a guess. I do know my losses were lower in the two years after I quit than the two years that I used it. I'm not going to try to make the case, though, that Fumidil increased my losses only that Nosema is just one of a lot of things that can be going on in our hives and it's also about the most difficult to accurately diagnose. 
30 years ago while running bees in central Minnesota I was advised by Dick Hyser, then the Minnesota state bee inspector, that a fall feeding of Fumidil would greatly lessen my winter loss. That fall we mixed up drums of treated and untreated syrup and fed 1/2 of slected yards with and 1/2 without medication. The tally the next spring in those test yards was an almost identical loss percentage. It is the last time I used it until I heard people screaming CERANAE, CERANAE. So honestly about the only things I know for sure is that it's expensive and it's an antibiotic that could conceivably have some unforeseen effects in your hives. Just for the record Harry, if I were you I wouldn't change a thing.


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## busy bee apiary (Aug 7, 2010)

I use it every year and the bees always look nice.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JBJ said:


> Prebiotitics, probiotics, and competitive inhibition of pathogens.. Who woulda thunk after all these years? Glad to see the subject has gone full circle.
> 
> In some circles one could be vilified for even suggesting not using fumagilin. This is a material that has been around a long time and is a leftover from a time when we thought Nosema was a protozoa and not a microsporidian. It seems silly to use the wrong material for the wrong critter. Somebody is making big bank on it.


Just thought I would repost this good post by JBJ


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

busy bee apiary said:


> I use it every year and the bees always look nice.


You sure it's not because something else you use, Dereck. lol


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Keith Jarrett said:


> We have a new additive in our sub that target's the gut pathogens like nosema, it builds the good xyz in the mid gut of the bee. I was just wondering how many folks still fed fumagilian.





JBJ said:


> Prebiotitics, probiotics, and competitive inhibition of pathogens.. Who woulda thunk after all these years? Glad to see the subject has gone full circle.
> 
> 
> > is this additive a closely guarded proprietary secret? is there information us little guys who can't buy truckloads of sub could benefit from?


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## busy bee apiary (Aug 7, 2010)

Oh yes I'll give credit where it's do. That's why I sent out a video and some pics last week of the bees. A little pat on the back. Haha


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Dereck, I got carpel-tunnel from doing that.lol


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

busy bee apiary said:


> That's why I sent out a video and some pics last week of the bees.


Where???

P.S. hope you got the info you were looking for last week.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

There are lots of trial available that show the effectiveness of Fumagillin against nosema. 

I think the issue here may be that beekeepers are treating when they don't have an issue with it. 
I would say beekeepers should test their bees first off to see if there is in deed a problem to treat
and if there is a problem, I would suggest that you would see a response to the treatment

>>Prebiotitics, probiotics, and competitive inhibition of pathogens<<

Its exciting to see this stuff !


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

"This is a material that has been around a long time and is a leftover from a time when we thought Nosema was a protozoa and not a microsporidian. It seems silly to use the wrong material for the wrong critter." JBJ
OK, please would someone explain why the difference is pertinent; My worst subject in school was Microbiology, and I know someone out there can explain it in layman's terms.

Jim, I actually know a nephew of Bob Hyser; The last time I saw him he told me that there was no one in the family keeping bees anymore.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Jim, I actually know a nephew of Bob Hyser; The last time I saw him he told me that there was no one in the family keeping bees anymore.


He was a great guy, I learned a lot from him. He and Dr. Furgala were always at the forefront of bee research.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

"The scientific classification of Microsporidia has evolved through time with growing scientific research in the area, and the specifics are still currently debated. Initially thought to be a protozoan (kingdom Protista), recent studies using DNA techniques indicate phylum Microspora should be classified under the Fungi kingdom or at least as a sister kingdom to Fungi."
From the page http://www.stanford.edu/class/humbio103/ParaSites2006/Microsporidiosis/microsporidia1.html

My interpretation is that Nosema should be classified as a fungus.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Just thought I would repost this good post by JBJ


Speaking of re-posting, here is a thread I started on the subject in 2007:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...tion-Probiotics-for-bees&highlight=probiotics

Bottom line with Varroa under control: healthy gut = healthy bees. This is a game changer and should not be underestimated. The big three when dealing with bee health in order of importance:
1.Nutrition, 2. Varroa, 3. Nosema. The reason Nutrition is number one is that it can actually help deal with the other two by creating imuno-competent bees. Take care of number one in a big way, do your spore counts, and you just might be pleasantly surprised (and so will your bank account).


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

its hard on the bees. shouldnt just use it blindly. overuse of antibiotics not a good thing. u can get a microscope and test your own. its not that hard. my bees look the best when they have that wonderful east texas pollen coming in during the spring. so that would be when i would use it again sometime cuz they can bounce back if it does some damage


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## borada bee doc (Feb 6, 2010)

Well, what about that fumagillin. (The following comments are meant as food for thought and are assumed to be rhetorical.)

When should it be used? Current thought is that Nosema cerana has replaced N. apis as the predominant species in colonies. This is the summertime nosema which grows more poorly in colder conditions. 

Do we treat in the fall for N. cerana? Oh, and what dose? Standard dosing is less effective for cerana. What method of application (drench or syrup feed)? Randy Oliver has calculated dosages with a standard drench showing the total applied dose to be much lower than that recommended in syrup feeding. 

So, first, we test for spores with our Suck-a-Bee vaccuum at the entrance for foragers, or under the cover, or??? Presently some university labs are testing only bees from the broodnest, as those heavily spore-laden foragers at the entrance which randomly appear, can significantly alter counts of otherwise healthy colonies. Which spore count does not lie?

Now, we also need to take into account the shortened longevity of bees consuming fumagillin. What will this do to our winter cluster in January and February? Did this also negatively impact immune function to other diseases/viruses?

Seems like the recommendations coming to us are from the pharmaceutical industry and the dealers selling the product. A little bias in the source of our guidance?

The truth is that we are treating our bees for nosema with little definitive evidence to guide us. We are treating based on testimonials, industry suggestions, and our fear of losing our bees if we deviate from what we did last year when our bees came out of winter looking okay.

Anyone with research backed ideas, on the concept of nosema treatment, to help sort this out?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

BBD: that's a really, really, really good post. I think too often beekeepers just treat for Nosema because ummmm errrrr that's what good beekeepers do.....right? I don't doubt that there is a good time and place to use it but every year? By everybody? Are you a bad beekeeper if you don't? Hmmmmmmm.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I sat in on a number of speakers talking about nosema a couple years back, they had studdies showing the effectiveness of Fumagillin in controling Nosema. Its not made up.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

borada bee doc said:


> Anyone with research backed ideas, on the concept of nosema treatment, to help sort this out?


YES, "ok ok ok Jimmy, I will make this short"

We have a micro-flora builder in our sub which competes with the nosema spores.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I think it makes a real difference on colony spore count depending where you grab the bees,
our guys tell us to take them from the lid or entrance when testing for nosema levels


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

At the Feb 5th Delta Bee Club meeting Randy Oliver spoke and said that using Fumagillin may at times make Nosema levels worse. He said a lot of other things about Pristine and Dimilin which is an IGR and a lot of other stuff. Randy talks 60 Mile an hour and I can only listen at 30. There are others on here who were at the meeting, maybe they will chime in. The last thing he said was "see my article in next months ABJ".

Keith, I told you, you should go. 
Jim


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## borada bee doc (Feb 6, 2010)

Regarding nosema control, I noticed something in Keith's video clip that probably has significant benefit to colony health. Keith is shaking bees coming out of winter.......... twice. 

In medical school, one could likely pass through the first couple of days on the surgery ward by simply reciting "The solution to pollution is dilution". This statement relates to the cleansing of open wounds by flushing copiously with sterile saline. No bactericidal agents are used, as these damage viable tissue to a greater extent than they kill germs.

Keith is adding cohorts of nosema-free bees to his hives by encouraging massive broodrearing. (Those broodnests are three times the size of mine here in Oregon.) As he shakes adults for sale, he is ridding the hive of nosema susceptible individuals. He is getting some of the same effect as moving colonies from their last summer nectar flow before flight has ended, thus cleansing the hive of the more heavily diseased physiologically old foragers.

Now, I would bet that Keith may also add his subs to hives as they near the end of a honey flow as well. This would complete the cycling of fresh disease-free bees into the hive as disease-laden bees are eliminated.

This does not suggest that the bees eliminated from the hive are truly disease laden, rather, if a pathogen was to gain entrance into a colony, it's likelihood of effectively establishing itself is diminished by this practice. 

By the way, Keith, what percentage of the hive do you think is removed with each shaking?

Andrew


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Keith said"We have a micro-flora builder in our sub which competes with the nosema spores. "

Is the miro-flora builder a probotic?

World English Dictionary
microflora (ˈmaɪkrəʊˌflɔːrə) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

— n
the community of microorganisms, including algae, fungi, and bacteria that live in or on another living organism or in a particular habitat


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Some keepers, like me in the north, treat their bees with Fumidil -B loyally every fall............................it seems to help the keeper sleep at nite


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Randy Oliver spoke and said that using Fumagillin may at times make Nosema levels worse.
>it seems to help the keeper sleep at nite 

With a false sense of security...


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

irwin harlton said:


> Some keepers, like me in the north, treat their bees with Fumidil -B loyally every fall


That was me most years up until a couple of years ago. Some of my hives were tested for nosema in the middle of winter and came back with spore numbers that were through the roof. Bees were collected from under the lid. That investment into fumagillin-B the fall before was sure worth it--NOT.

The hives wintered fine and build up nicely the following spring. Go figure.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

http://www.delta-business.com/Calga...tive therapies for the control of Nosema .pdf

This study, I believe was done in 2009/10...................not much new since than,except reports showing spore count spikes up again after treatment, which is not good, this is saying that Fumidil B will in fact encourage a deeper more virile infection after initial treatment


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We havent used Fumigilian-B for 3 years now. Of 16 samples pulled by the state late in the summer 10 were negative. The 6 positives averaged 1.52 per million. The treatment threshold that I have heard used before is 5 though I havent any idea how that number was arrived at.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

> Use of fumagillin may increase the prevalence of N. ceranae and is potentially a factor in replacement of N. apis by N. ceranae in US apiaries.

Fumagillin treatment is known to reduce microsporidian
reproduction and is probably useful for protecting weak
colonies [2], but the antibiotic may have unintended effects on the
honey bee host, ultimately contributing to increased prevalence
and pathogenicity of N. ceranae. In addition, the time period of N. ceranae
hyperproliferation may reverse the benefits gained at the
beginning of fumagillin treatment, resulting in indistinguishable
performance between fumagillin treated and untreated hives.

Huang W-F, Solter LF, Yau PM, Imai BS (2013) Nosema ceranae Escapes Fumagillin Control in Honey Bees. PLoS Pathog 9(3): e1003185.
Compliments of Peter L Borst post at Bee L


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

*Nosema ceranae Escapes Fumagillin Control in Honey
Bees*
Wei-Fone Huang1*, Leellen F. Solter1, Peter M. Yau2, Brian S. Imai2
1 Illinois Natural History, Prairie Research Institute, University of Illinois, Champaign, Illinois, United States of America, 2 Roy J. Carver Biotechnology Center, Protein
Sciences Immunological Resource Center, 307 Noyes Laboratory, Urbana, Illinois, United States of America
Abstract
Fumagillin is the only antibiotic approved for control of nosema disease in honey bees and has been extensively used in
United States apiculture for more than 50 years for control of Nosema apis. It is toxic to mammals and must be applied
seasonally and with caution to avoid residues in honey. Fumagillin degrades or is diluted in hives over the foraging season,
exposing bees and the microsporidia to declining concentrations of the drug. We showed that spore production by Nosema
ceranae, an emerging microsporidian pathogen in honey bees, increased in response to declining fumagillin concentrations,
up to 100% higher than that of infected bees that have not been exposed to fumagillin. N. apis spore production was also
higher, although not significantly so. Fumagillin inhibits the enzyme methionine aminopeptidase2 (MetAP2) in eukaryotic
cells and interferes with protein modifications necessary for normal cell function. We sequenced the MetAP2 gene for apid
Nosema species and determined that, although susceptibility to fumagillin differs among species, there are no apparent
differences in fumagillin binding sites. Protein assays of uninfected bees showed that fumagillin altered structural and
metabolic proteins in honey bee midgut tissues at concentrations that do not suppress microsporidia reproduction. The
microsporidia, particularly N. ceranae, are apparently released from the suppressive effects of fumagillin at concentrations
that continue to impact honey bee physiology. The current application protocol for fumagillin may exacerbate N. ceranae
infection rather than suppress it.
Citation: Huang W-F, Solter LF, Yau PM, Imai BS (2013) Nosema ceranae Escapes Fumagillin Control in Honey Bees. PLoS Pathog 9(3): e1003185. doi:10.1371/
journal.ppat.1003185
Editor: David S. Schneider, Stanford University, United States of America
Received July 6, 2012; Accepted December 21, 2012; Published March 7, 2013
Copyright:  2013 Huang et al. This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits
unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original author and source are credited.
Funding: This project was supported by Agriculture and Food Research Initiative Competitive Grant no. 2009-85118-05718, from the USDA National Institute of
Food and Agriculture, and USDA-CSREES Project no. ILLU-875-302-0205249 S-1024. The research was also supported by the Prairie Research Institute, Illinois
Natural History Survey and Roy J. Carver Biotechnology Center, Protein Sciences Immunological Resource Center at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.
The funders had no role in study design, data collection and analysis, decision to publish, or preparation of the manuscript.
Competing Interests: The authors have declared that no competing interests exist.
* E-mail: [email protected]

full paper available here:
http://www.apinews.com/en/news/item/download/1317


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

this is better and cheaper than Fumidil-B

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/2010/drench 2010.pdf


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Irwin have you been doing this and getting similar results?


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

no, but going to try it
Reports, I have heard have been good


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Are you thinking of drenching or adding to feed?


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

drenching and adding to feed


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Ever since I started using that stuff, my bees never had nosema problems.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

do you mix your syrup 1gallon HBH to 200gallons syrup or do you thin the HBH down some


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Ian, I mix 2 gal/200gal for the first gallon of feed the bees receive then the rest are 1/200. Last fall we started using Mann Lake version of HBH.


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