# No wire on foundation-less deep?



## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

I am switching to foundation-less and I just read on Michael Bush's site that he doesn't need wire (but he uses all mediums).

Well, I have been using deeps and so far they are building pretty good on the deeps, but I didn't think at all about the need for wire. Am I going to have one big mess? It is not to late I can extract one comb at a time and add wire, but wondering if that is required?


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## TPalmer (Jun 11, 2012)

I personally don't like using wire for foundationless. For me it gets in the way as in if your need to correct it a little one way or the other. Once they attach it to the sides or sometimes the bottom your good and then you don't have to be careful when you inspect. You may want to try one or two and see if you like it or not but I wouldn't sweat it.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I've never wired.
I've done foundationless in deeps both bare and using fishline instead of wire.

I never tried extracting them.

The fishlike has value the fist season while the comb is soft... otherwise you have to be mindful of it until it is attached well on the sides.

But it is certainly not necessary to use wire or fishline.

Have fun.
Enjoy your bees.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

you do have to be careful inspecting unwired deep foundationless frames on hot summer days when the comb is soft and they haven't yet attached it to the sides.  i lost a frame of drone brood learning that lesson, it just fell right out of the frame when was holding the frame horizontally to inspect it. i wire mine now just to be on the safe side, but i am also more careful to keep the frames vertical when inspecting them.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I know people doing deeps foundationless with no wire. If you want to you can put one in the center horizontally.


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## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

Well that's a relief. I'll be careful when checking the frames. Thanks for all the feedback!


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I tried deep foundationless frames last year with no wire in a few hives. Some did fine but I lost 5 or 6 frames worth of comb that were in positions 1 or 10 in the boxes. When it got hot summer the fresh comb with the weight of the honey in them simply pulled off the top bar and fell to the bottom of the hive. It was a mess. I decided to wire them from now on.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

I wire everything just to be safe. I almost lost a couple combs full of brood in the hot summer, forgot they weren't wired and they almost broke off.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

squarepeg said:


> you do have to be careful inspecting unwired deep foundationless frames on hot summer days when the comb is soft and they haven't yet attached it to the sides. i lost a frame of drone brood learning that lesson, it just fell right out of the frame when was holding the frame horizontally to inspect it. i wire mine now just to be on the safe side, but i am also more careful to keep the frames vertical when inspecting them.


I'll vouch for that! Strictly vertical only! 

I'll add: I avoid using a trailer (with little/hard suspension) to carry unwired hives. They go in my car, driven carefully. 

I don't use wire much at all, but I always carry good rubber bands ready to pop on if something goes wrong. The bees don't seem to mind making good and chucking the old bands out.

Mike (UK)


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Two horizontal wires works well, just gotta watch how they start, correct before they hit the first wire if need be. They draw right through them, works great.


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## rob brinkerhoff (Dec 25, 2012)

I use a lot of deep foundationless frames, and I wire every one of them...very time consuming. With wire, drawn comb is very stable, robust, can be handled roughly, and I have no problem extracting honey from them. But I will say, either wire all of them or none, at least mark the frames so you can differentiate which has wire or not. Nothing more frustrating than dropping a nice frame of brood covered in bees on the ground. 

You don't need to use wire, just as you don't need wire on a top-bar, but you have to treat the frames just like top-bar comb. 

For what it is worth, I am using more and more plastic foundation, primarily for use in the supers. Wireless frames, in a super, during a good nectar flow do not draw out nearly as good as foundation, period. I will still continue using them in the brood chamber since there the bees do a fine job of drawing them out, and I "feel" that in the spring they add more open space in the brood nest when prepping for swarm season. And yes, they obviously can go hog wild on the drone comb.


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## Capps (Jul 21, 2012)

Thanks, the photos are great!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The deep frames you have to wire them.
As mentioned in the hot summer the weak top and heavy bottom not attaching to
the frame will break off. Having the steel wires will hold the comb in otherwise the comb
will wobble away from the bottom bar. Making the hive inspection a chore of its own.
How can you do a thorough inspection with wobbly comb on a frame? I had them before and
don't like it at all.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

beepro said:


> The deep frames you have to wire them.
> As mentioned in the hot summer the weak top and heavy bottom not attaching to
> the frame will break off. Having the steel wires will hold the comb in otherwise the comb
> will wobble away from the bottom bar. Making the hive inspection a chore of its own.
> ...


Always hold your frames vertically. I have no problem, though you do have to be very careful with young comb that isn't yet fixed to the sides and bottom.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Run a top bar hive or two and you'll learn to handle frames without breaking the combs out. 

If you handle them in such a way as to keep them always in the vertical plane you'll be fine.
The horizontal is where you run into catastrophe .


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I drill a couple of holes in the top bar and stick some barbecue skewers (wood) in them. Haven't had a problem yet, but this was my first season foundationless and most of my frames still have foundation.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

An example of a worst-case scenario ...










In a week or so this comb will be attached at the sides and reasonably secure - but right now it would be at risk without those 'wires' (actually, 50lb BS fishing line), especially as those girls have started to load the comb with nectar.

LJ


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I got over 300 deep foundationless frames drawn this year, didn't wire any of them. Of the frames I extacted, maybe 7 were on old comb the rest were new comb. I only had two frames start to tear in the center during extraction. A few seasons of experience handling and extracting them and you probably won't have any problems. The first year I did it though was a mess.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

dsegrest said:


> I drill a couple of holes in the top bar and stick some barbecue skewers (wood) in them. Haven't had a problem yet, but this was my first season foundationless and most of my frames still have foundation.


Simply brilliant. Good suggestion.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

rwurster said:


> I got over 300 deep foundationless frames drawn this year.


What are your plans for the 295 drone combs? :-D


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## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

Can I ask a question about your equipment? What is the measurement of a standard deep frame? Here in Sardinia, we are using (as far as I can ascertain) something like Dadant deeps, with frames of 11 1/4". I believe this is "deeper" than the deeps that the posters are here referring to, am I right?

In any case, I've been doing the same as dsegrest, using bamboo in the place of wooden skewers, and I've been running them horizontally instead of vertically. So far it has worked well; the frames are easily manipulable without undue fear of comb fragility, and the bees have no trouble incorporating the bamboo.

John


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> What are your plans for the 295 drone combs? :-D


Funny. I have two top bars and they seem to LOVE building drone comb on the last two bars. First they fill it with nectar, then the drones, and then they kick them all out, repeat. I guess you call them drone producers and go with the flow. Either that or tear it out and I just can't destroy it. Stupid bees, do what I say!


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

No wires, lots of foundationless frames.

A few blow outs when extracting, a lot less now that I have a radial extractor. 

I would get broken comb while transporting full swarm traps in the back of my truck, now I put the trap in the cab with me no more broken comb.

Read about taking bur comb and putting pieces between bottom bars and unattached comb, the bees attach it. Been doing this season and it works great!


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I was planning to try skewers myself next year. Glad to see some do.


aunt betty said:


> Simply brilliant. Good suggestion.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>something like Dadant deeps, with frames of 11 1/4". I believe this is "deeper" than the deeps that the posters are here referring to, am I right?

Yes:
Dadant deep 11 1/4"
Deep 9 1/4"
Medium 6 1/4"
Shallow 5 1/2"
Extra shallow 4 1/2"


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

aunt betty said:


> then the drones, and then they kick them all out


And you go hunting when your wife kicks you out?!


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

jwcarlson said:


> What are your plans for the 295 drone combs? :-D


I find it isn't an issue, more of an opportunity. The strongest hives make far more drones... exactly what I want for my virgins. 

I agree, radial extractors are much kinder. I use frames with starter strip, and if they aren't joined well all round I put elastic bands round while extracting. Works most of the time, and it would probably work all the time if I had a motor and more patience.

Mike (UK)


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Barry said:


> And you go hunting when your wife kicks you out?!


Laughed out loud. I'm one of them lucky people who found their soulmate. If you only knew...
She lets me go. Bought me a lab, then a truck with extended cab so the dog don't get cold. (really) 
When the truck got broken into and my gun and bag got stole I was a mess and she picked up the pieces. Bought me a Beretta 390 (ewwwww) to ease the pain. I've got a very good wife. 
Kicks me out...rofl


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> Can I ask a question about your equipment? What is the measurement of a standard deep frame? Here in Sardinia, we are using (as far as I can ascertain) something like Dadant deeps, with frames of 11 1/4". I believe this is "deeper" than the deeps that the posters are here referring to, am I right?n


Well - yes and no. My 'standard' deeps are 9" and are fitted with 3 support lines, but I also have 14" x 12" (12" deep) frames which are given 4. That way, the combs are supported from 3" deep onwards - something I find useful when shaking bees off combs - which I much prefer to brushing 'em off.

LJ


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## rob brinkerhoff (Dec 25, 2012)

A few examples of some good honey packed wired foundationless frames before and after extraction. Extractor set on high.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Sizing on the natural comb is interesting.
A known dimension (in this case the open length from top to bottom bar (202 mm) may be used on a photograph without parallax to scale other portions.
Formula is 202*test pix/pix on known length == cell measure.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

JWChesnut said:


> A known dimension (in this case the open length from top to bottom bar (202 mm) may be used on a photograph


Problem is the photo is not taken straight on so your equation doesn't work.


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## rob brinkerhoff (Dec 25, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> Sizing on the natural comb is interesting.
> View attachment 21167


Perhaps because it is mostly drone and the cells got warped uncapping. All the drone comb is a problem, that is one reason I do not like these frames.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

rob brinkerhoff said:


> All the drone comb is a problem, that is one reason I do not like these frames.


You ain't a kiddin'!

Had a colony that wanted to swarm late late late here raise over three deep frames worth of drone brood in all their foundationless frames.
I stopped them from swarming... but I did not stop them from raising the drones as I had some queens mating at a similar late date in another yard a few miles away.

Talk about a mite bomb.


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## rob brinkerhoff (Dec 25, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> Talk about a mite bomb.


Yep, exactly. I want drone comb, but not excessive frames of it in one colony. I think is has to do with how you manage the open space as to how much drone comb they build, it is not hard to "encourage" them to draw excessive drone. 

If you don't stay on top of it, things can go South real fast.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

jwcarlson said:


> What are your plans for the 295 drone combs? :-D


Sounds like you're doing it wrong JW.


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