# whats this??



## redhawknc1 (Jun 16, 2005)

Is it wax moth larvae? I am sure someone else will know for sure. Look at the picture on thre following url.
http://www.beecare.com/indexDynFrames.htm?http://www.beecare.com/PestsTreatments/Wax%20Moth.htm&1


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Looks like wax moth larva. I fish with them regularly.

Any webs present????


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Get some Certan (BT) and spray them down fast!!!


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## blkcloud (May 25, 2005)

is this (Certan (BT))a special order product or does the farm store have it??


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

http://www.beeworks.com/usacatalog/items/item134.htm

other bee suppliers probably have it as well


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

here's a couple of cocoons I found today and the grub that came out of them
I'm pretty sure they're waxmoth

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/waxmoth/

Dave


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Has to be Bt aizawai (Bta) for use against wax moth larvae in honeycombs; ...


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I think certan lost its certification in the US so you gotta get it from beeworks in Canada
that's where I got it and it was no problem

Dave


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

blkcloud - 

do your combs have "spider web" tracks? 
if so - wax moths.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

It sorta looks like a small hive beetle larva to me. If it's a wax moth larva, it's a small one. If it's an SHB larva, it's a big one. SHB larva have I think 4 sets of legs located at the head end which is reddish and they have little spines on their sides:

http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/bugs/shb1.jpg

Blkcloud, do you see any comb damage and cobwebs anywhere? As wax moth larvae burrow through the combs, they leave tunnels of webbing behind.

I haven't got any pictures of wax moth damage, but I'll try to remember to take some- I've got a comb in the other room that has some.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

looks too white to be SHB larva George, SHB larva are dirty looking like in your pic shows....I would guest wax moth also, but like george and other said look for webbing trails..


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## blkcloud (May 25, 2005)

i havent seen any webbing..


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>looks too white to be SHB larva George,

The picture could just be over exposed.

>i havent seen any webbing..

Wax moth larvae literally tunnel through the comb, leaving behind a tube of spider web like filaments that is very easy to see. They often travel in long diagonal straight lines across the comb, eating as they go. They enter a cell on one flat face and exit on the opposite flat face i.e., they don't tend to cut through cells where the cell walls intersect, hence the diagonal tracks. Since they eat wax, pollen, and honey, they usually attack the periphery of combs where that stuff is stored, but they also eat castoff pupal skins so they're not averse to burrowing right through the center of the brood nest.

SHB on the other hand don't destroy the combs, at least not in any small-scale infestations I've seen. The larva enter cells of honey or nectar, eat and crap, and make a nuisance of themselves. The honey thus polluted rots and spuzzes out of the cells, drips down the combs, and generally makes a real mess- every bit as bad as wax moth, but different.

Your description of seeing this worm emerging from a capped cell is rather un-like what I've seen wax moth do, but it sounds like something an SHB worm would do. I watched an SHB larva climb out of a cell and dive into an adjacent cell of honey. SHB larvae are smaller than wax moth worms which easily get an inch or more long, as are adult wax moths.

Do you still have the worm? Examine it's underside and check for the legs. SHB have 3 sets of legs located under the head end and have little spines along their back.


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## blkcloud (May 25, 2005)

I got a good look at it just now under my ring light..it has a set of legs right behind the head and four more sets from about 1/3 the lenght of its body back towards the tail..real soft and squishy..i'm guessing wax moth..so now what to do..thanks!!


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Yup, that sounds like wax moth. It can be hard to tell the difference when they're small without looking close. Funny you haven't seen any web trails. Here's great pictures of various sized wax moth larvae:

http://photo.bees.net/gallery/waxmoth/P2080223

As for what to do, my approach would be to do nothing. Remove the worms where you find them and let the bees clean things up. A healthy hive will kick small hive beetle and wax moth butt fairly well if the pests don't get the upper hand first. Then the bee's tendancy is to abscond and leave the bugs to stew in their own mess. I've had minor infestations of both wax moth and SHB and the bees handled it without my intervention. You could treat but I wouldn't bother unless it was really bad. 

George-


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## blkcloud (May 25, 2005)

I called brush mountain and they recommended paramoth..good bad what..??


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## Amanda2fan (Aug 14, 2005)

People EAT these things???  I'll just stick with gummy worms, thank you.

Are there certain climates that the moth prefers?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I called brush mountain and they recommended paramoth..good bad what..?? 

If you like eating carcinogens, there is Paradichlorobenzene aka Paramoth aka PDB. Personally I'd rather eat a few bacteria (Bt or Certan).


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

blkcloud . . .

Do NOT use Paradichlorobenzene (PDB) WITH your BEES in hive.

Use only on "empty comb" and air out before returning frames to hive.

You can use Vita B401 (same as CertanR) INSIDE hive w/ bees.

Is this hive weak? Do you have other "strong" hives?


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## TXBEE (Feb 23, 2006)

A good way to tell if it is SHB or wax moth larva, is try to squish it with your finger, SHB will be rubbery and kindof hard to squish, but wax moth will be really tender. Yeah, I know its gross, but, if you gotta you gotta!

Definatly do NOT use PDB with your bees in the hive. I had a box that had had PDB in it, and I put it on a fully established hive, and they were outa there in a few minutes. Never got them to stay after that.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

do SHB have any kind of cocoon in the hive or do they go straight to the ground after hatching
the things I saw match TXBEE's description but they were in cocoons

Dave


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

PDB does a pretty good job of deterring most insects. Entomologists use it commonly in insect collections to prevent dermestids (carpet beetles or larder beetles) from eating up specimens.

"If you like eating carcinogens, there is Paradichlorobenzene aka Paramoth aka PDB. Personally I'd rather eat a few bacteria (Bt or Certan)." -Michael Bush

That statement makes me cringe. OK, PDB has been labeled a "carcinogen." Lots of things get labeled "carcinogens." Lots of things that we eat regularly (or, at least, than many Americans eat regularly). For example, grilled chicken can also be a carcinogen -- in fact, blackened chicken or fish is more dangerous as a carcinogen to humans than PDB is. All sorts of every-day items are carcinogenic.

So, having said that, I don't and wouldn't use PDB in any of my hive components, either. I'd be worried about exactly what TXBEE described more than I'd worry about carcinogenic effects.

Then, too, Certan or Bt isn't bacteria -- it's a toxin produced by bacteria. Bacillus thuringiensis is a bacterium that produces an insecticidal chemical. We can harvest that chemical and use it to control some insects. You wouldn't be consuming the bacteria, you'd be eating some of that insecticide produced by the bacteria. All sorts of bacteria produce all sorts of chemicals. Some are "good," and some are "bad." In the case of the chemical produced by B. thuringiensis, we call it "good" when we're using it to control pests. When people suffer from a nerve toxin similarly produced by a bacterium (Clostridium botulinum), we can it "bad" ("botulism").

If you have room in a freezer, I'd recommend freezing to control wax moths. Otherwise, like others have suggested, if the hive is strong, let the bees deal with the wax moths.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Dave, SHB do not have cacoons. After hatching they bore through the comb eating bee larvae, honey and pollen -- leaving a slime trail. When ready, they crawl out of the hive to pupate in the ground. They can crawl a long way to find dirt. The best defense is a strong hive, so watch any splits closely. I'm about to try the DE you gave me: I'll sprinkle it on the SBB insert in a hive with a top-entrance only. My theory is the SHB larvae will try to exit via the SBB and get DE'd there.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>That statement makes me cringe. OK, PDB has been labeled a "carcinogen." Lots of things get labeled "carcinogens." Lots of things that we eat regularly (or, at least, than many Americans eat regularly). 

AND PDB is lipophilic. I just saw a presentation that showed the typical residues in wax for PDB. I have no interest in having it in my hives. And if you use it it WILL be in your hive.

It's your choice.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

"And if you use it it WILL be in your hive." -Michael Bush

Good words to keep bees by. Same goes for anything else you add to bee hives, whether it's "natural" or not. Use Apistan or Checkmite+, the residues can be detected in wax and honey. Use OA or formic acid, and the concentrations of those chemicals increase in the honey. Use Certan or Bt, and you'll have some trace amounts of that insecticide in your honey.

Michael's right; "it's your choice." Each of us has to decide what we're willing to tolerate in our honey, and how much of it. What effects does the insecticide produced by B. thuringiensis have on humans? I don't know. I don't know if anyone knows.

And I still get back to the whole, "What is a carcinogen, what isn't a carcinogen," point. Try buying some basic plumbing supplies, and read the labels on the stuff. The solder that you use to sweat pipes has a label on it, "This product contains substances known to the state of California as carcinogens (might not be word-for-word, but along those lines)." The flux used to prep the pipes bears the same label. In fact, the copper pipe -- the pipes that carry the water that you drink and use for cooking -- bears that label, too.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It's all a matter of what level of exposure to risk are we willing to accept, isn't it.

We all are willing to accept a certain level of risk in our lives. Otherwise, we wouldn't get out of bed in the morning.

I often think that as time goes by people in general are less accepting of risk.

Take for instance all of the saftey devices in cars. How did we, as kids, ever survive without carseats and safety belts? Childproof caps on medicines and toys with no small parts.

And then those who do take risks aren't willing to accept the responsiibility. Barring those who couldn't get away from the hurricanes Katrina and Rita, those who decided to stay and got killed or injured shouldn't complain or expect compensation. Should they?

Too much of anything is leathal. I'm still waiting for the day when bottled water comes with a warning label, "May cause drowning". 

Is anyone who is smart enough to be able to buy a pack of cigarettes dumb enough to be ignorant that smoking causes health problems? The folks who took the "Noctious Weed" back to England in the 17th Century knew it was foul. But they used it anyway.

The folks who originally grew and used tobacco were smart enough to use it sparingly. Or, at least that's my chosen perception. Maybe Michael could set me straight. I'll admit that my views of Native Americans can be altruistic.


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## blkcloud (May 25, 2005)

Is this hive weak? Do you have other "strong" hives?
I only have 2 hives..both seem strong to me..
I orderd the certan just now from canada..I guess i'll try and pick out what I can til it comes in..2 weeks from now..lol bluegill anyone??


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>both seem strong to me..

BEST DEFENSE is to maintain strong colonies [Ref 15, p143] of vigorous bee stock [Ref 12, p1130]. Wax moths are rarely a problem to a healthy colony. If hive is weakened, moths are able to get ahead of the bees [Ref 4, p159] sometimes causing the death of maturing brood which become trapped in webbing. Bees are largely unable of coping w/ wax moth once it has become established, it can take over and become difficult or impossible to remove [Ref 4, p160].


DEFINITION of COLONY SIZE 

EARLY SPRING POPULATION - When dandelions appear (before fruit trees bloom)

WEAK or SMALL
 Fist-size cluster w/ a queen and a few hundred bees is not useable [BC, 11/05, p36]. 
 A cluster at least the size of a large grapefruit is needed to incubate brood [Ref 1, p136].
 Any cluster covering less than 2 full frames both sides should be dequeened and bees and stores divided among stronger colonies [Ref 2, p158].
 Weak cluster covers less than 2 to 4 frames both sides at 55-60oF[Source???].
 3 or 4 frames of bees [Ref 15, p68] (10,500 or 14,000 bees - Early March, before dandelions appear??? [DLW))
 Broodnest should spread over 3 to 4 frames [BEEKEEPING, Melzer, 1989, p46]. (Average???[DLW])
 15,000 bees, 6 to 8 frames of bees in 1 super [MiteGone Brochure-Jan 1, 04]. 
(15,000 / 6 = 2,500 per frame or 6 frames about 70% covered, 8 frames 50% [DLW].)

NORMAL (Average)
 March 1st population approx 27,000 bees (9 frames) [Ref 4, p102]
 30,000 bees (10 frames), 3 to 4 frames of brood in lower super, 8 mostly empty frames in top super [MiteGone Brochure-Jan 1, 04]. 
 In late spring, normal, healthy colony will have at least 6 frames with (not full) brood if its population is at least 30,000 adults [Ref 7, p136].
 Minimum of 6 to 8 frames of brood [Ref 4, p119].
 Normal colonies should cover 6 to 12 frames [Ref 13, p185].
 Normal colonies cover 12 or more frames [Ref 13, p185].

STRONG:
 At Dandelion bloom, strongest colonies will have 8 to 10 frames of brood [BC 4/04, p39].
 About April, w/ brood nest consisting of 2 or more hive bodies, strong colonies will have 12 to 14 frames of brood and will be boiling over w/ bees [Ref 11, p121].
 12 to 15 frames of bees [Ref 7, p8].
 15 to 20 frames of bees [Ref 5, p361].
 6 to 8 frames of brood [Ref 4, p119, Ref 5, p361, BEEKEEPING, Melzer, 1989, p47].
 6 to 10 frames of brood [Ref 7, p8].

To Estimate Colony Size:
 Count bees coming and going at entrance; if they can be counted easily, colony is weak. Between 30 to 90 bees per minute indicates a strong colony [Ref 15, p71].
 Count bees returning to hive for 1 minute (B/M). To estimate number of deep frames of bees in colony, the equation is B/M x 30 Min x .0005 = number of deep frames of bees (assumes 1 deep frame covered both sides = 2000 bees). For weak colony, use .00057 (1750 or 1/2 lb bees / frame [Ref 15, p164]. 
 One deep frame completely covered w/ adult bees equals about 1 pound (3500) of bees. A shallow frame holds about 1/2 lb. [Ref 15, p71]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The folks who originally grew and used tobacco were smart enough to use it sparingly. Or, at least that's my chosen perception.

I don't know about "smart enough" but they were using it for prayer. If you smoked too much you made up for it by praying a lot.









PDB

http://www.ilo.org/public/english/protection/safework/cis/products/icsc/dtasht/_icsc00/icsc0037.htm

http://www-cie.iarc.fr/htdocs/monographs/vol73/73-08.html


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Wonder what the health consequences of eating moth larva is?? Or mites???


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Wonder what the health consequences of eating moth larva is?? Or mites???

You'll eat a bucket of dirt before you die, most of it before you reach the age of 5. What's a few mites! Are they the Enemy, or pie filling?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Most studies have found that the average person swallows something like 5 to 10 spiders every year while sleeping.


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