# steam in extractor



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

I wish someone made a water jacketed extractor. They use one at COAPIHL in Honduras. Besides flowing better could it reduce the moisture content without scorching the honey?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I thought that this steam generator was a closed system. I'm not sure that it woulf generate enough heat to produce steam if it were open. I have no experience blowing steam, in honey that is. I don't think you would need a whole bunch. What's wrong with an extra minute or 2 on the cycle for extraction? 

Jean-Marc


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> How much steam do you need to help extract thick honey? Would the small electric steam generator work from Dadant?
> Thanks, Keith


You put steam in your extractor?

What do you mean by "thick honey"? Low viscosity honey? Cold honey? What?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> You put steam in your extractor?
> 
> What do you mean by "thick honey"?


14%


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Kieth-A handy man like you should be able to make a steam generator that sits on top of a propane burner for a heat source. I've got an old one that has a weighted plug that goes over the fill hole and 4 spouts coming out the top for steam lines. It also has a sight class on the side so I can see the water level inside. When you run your steam line to the extractor keep it all uphill until it gets to the extractor. if there is a "dip" in the line water will pool in the line and you will get bursts of water in the extractor. After the extractor spins to get most of the honey out of the comb then allow the steam to go into the extractor for a few minutes to warm the remaining honey. When the steam isn't being diverted into the extractor it needs another place to go where you can collect the water from it or have it go to the outside of your extracting room.

As for the heated extractor- It isn't to hard to run a pex line inside the extractor on the bottom to circulate hot water through so the honey is warm when coming out of the extractor. Just don't use steam in this line or it will melt the wax.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Wow! You definitely need steam to get 14 % honey to spin out. I have dealt with 15% honey before and it is like taffy. I know a number of outfits that use them but I have never worked with one. I don't know why that Dadant unit wouldnt work, I guess the main thing is to keep a close eye on the water level, doubt if they have a low water shut off like the big boilers have. Sorry I cant be more help.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

neighbour here sent the steam straight from his capping knife. 
But thats not going to help you,

Id left the dehumidifier on one year in a room of 50 boxes with very wet honey. Forgot about it because I turned my attention to combining. Got back, and the honey wouldnt extract at 14% or so. tossed water on the floor for a couple of days. Brought it to 17%.


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## Woodside (Aug 10, 2010)

im not sure about thick honey. But i just have a 5 gallon tank set at 220 degrees with a copper wire going from it and two extractors, plus a hot room around 85 degrees.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Pardon me, but I extract 14-15% honey all day long without steam. I preheat the supers to 95-100F for 24-48hrs using a temperature controller and a light box with supers stacked on top. The controller keeps the max air temp to 100F

Then they are quickly uncapped and spin dry in less than 10 minutes.

If steam is introduced, a large amount will be absorbed by the honey and you will have little control over the final moisture content. But it will run out of the extracter quickly.


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## redbee (Dec 29, 2005)

I installed a Dadant steam generator on my Cowen extracter and it made a big different on frames jaming and having wet combs,works great .


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

You need one of those old Superior Lifetime eight frame tangential extractors. Or, like Fuzzy said, preheat the combs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> 14%


Your honey is that dry in the comb? Do you hydrate it? Will packers buy 14% moisture content honey? I have always heard that if honey is below 16% it is not considered honey.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

"Your honey is that dry in the comb?"

Mark,

Although I am 150 or so miles from him I can easily believe that he gets honey that dry. We will get weeks where it is 105F and 5% humidity. Everything gets dry. It makes it tough to get the honey clear after extraction. The air bubbles are trapped pretty good.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I guess all beekeeping is local, eh?


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## Woodside (Aug 10, 2010)

I think if i had 14% honey id dump a few 5 gallon pales of water in the mix. :lpf:


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

I used a warming room that brought temp up to 110 f. When honey was very dry, just hot water sprayed by hand over the stacks helped a lot. I also had a 1/4 inch line with hot water suspended from roof. For a nozzle I used a brass air blow gun. I would spritz the input line of frames just befor loading the Cowan. Steam will not warm a large mass of spinning frames and air. A friend used nozzles from Spraying systems to inject hot water at precise intervals into his cowan with electric solenoid controled water valves and timers. Of coarse all complicated systems do fail. My spritz system worked just as well without teck. failures and a lot cheaper. The little hot water spritz really helped lubing the loading rails also. The only draw back that I never solved is that little brass air nozzlle got hot as hell to handle if run too long.


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

keith,

dadant steamer works like a dream. i use it on every load all year. combs get warm and dry. cowen makes an insert into the side of my 120 system extractor to hook the steam hose to. you need a valve on the side of the extractor to shut it off when needed. if you let a load go too long with full steam the frames will come apart somewhat. all my buddies use it too. amazing how dry the frames get. i dont run my hot room much at all any more. i can run really cold honey through too. not a problem whatsoever for your dry honey. you can get every drop out.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

How long do you run an extraction cycle,


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

From an engineering perspective, it always seemed like a waste in time, energy and space to have a dedicated hot room heating and dehydrating whole boxes of honey. Yet, every commercial beekeeper I've worked for has done it. And some of the heating systems are very elaborate with floor heating, etc.

Then those heated frames are taken out of the hot room, deboxed and cooled in that gigantic, horizontal squirrel cage fan/extractor. I've checked temps and, if the extractor lid is left open, everything is the same as room temperature in a couple of minutes. 

It doesn't make much difference if the room temperature is 100 degrees and the extractor is a Lifetime Superior Reversible. Been there, done that. But that heated floor/hot room and energy used are a very expensive option for a couple of minutes extracting advantage in a large radial, run at room temperature. 

Steam injection is a neat extracting option for dry honey areas. Maybe an air heated extractor would be the ticket for high moisture honey areas and solve some other steam contamination related problems as well.


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## beekeeper_sd (Oct 30, 2008)

BWrangler said:


> From an engineering perspective, it always seemed like a waste in time, energy and space to have a dedicated hot room heating and dehydrating whole boxes of honey. Yet, every commercial beekeeper I've worked for has done it. And some of the heating systems are very elaborate with floor heating, etc.
> 
> 
> > Ever tried uncapping and extracting 40,000 pounds of COLD honey?
> ...


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

>Ever tried uncapping and extracting 40,000 pounds of COLD honey?

Oh yes. Been there. Done that as well. Before migrating to almonds became the norm, it was common, here in central Wyoming, to still be extracting through the end of December. I spent almost a decade moving cold honey from a uninsulated steel building into a hot room, then into the extracting room. And the honey is inherently thick with our very dry hot, then very cold and dry climate.

>Guess that's why you shut the extractor lid. 

For sure. But it doesn't stay closed. And I'll bet, if you manually load and unload your extractors, it's open more than it's closed. Here's a question: When you open the lid of your unheated extractor, is the air coming out, after an extracting cycle, warmer than room air? Open the lid before you put on the brakes and test it for yourself.

Injecting steam is a neat option. But it's also possible to inject other stuff with the steam, especially if any black iron is used or water quality isn't considered.

With three 72 frame extractors and 40,000 lbs, honey shouldn't even have a chance to get cold, even in South Dakota. :>)

Regards - Dennis


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

On a smaller scale I have used with great succes hair dryers in the extractor and warming up a stack of boxes with frames full.


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

I solderd a copper line on the outside of my 120 Cowen then to a steam trap to take out the water then a short line to the extractor. I have a 5HP boiler and run 12 lbs with 3 lbs differntal. Be careful with wax foundation it will melt out. I use all plastic foundation with wood frames. Let a friend use the honey house they had a long lunch and came back to just wood and wire. Run time is less than 10 minutes. Some times we get a little fir honey 13%-14 steam is a must.
David


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>From an engineering perspective, it always seemed like a waste in time, energy and space to have a dedicated hot room heating and dehydrating whole boxes of honey. Yet, every commercial beekeeper I've worked for has done it. And some of the heating systems are very elaborate with floor heating, etc.

Dont know about that Dennis, I hear what your saying, but from experience, it does make a world of difference extracting warmed honey in frame. No question about it


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Dennis:

I guess that's why engineers are engineers and beekeepers are beekeepers. 

Jean-Marc


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

>but from experience, it does make a world of difference extracting warmed honey in frame...

That's been my experience also. But there are lots of ways to get warm honey. Some involve heating huge concrete slabs, dehydrating already dry honey, and heating 30lbs of wood/extras(with most of that energy lost to the environment) for every 60lbs of honey heated. It's kind of like driving with the emergency brake on. 

>I guess that's why engineers are engineers and beekeepers are beekeepers. 

That's been my experience as well.

I worked for a guy that lost his floor heated hot room to corrosion. I did a little testing and suggested that the heat be added to the extractor rather than the hot room floor. Steam and dry heat where options.

He declined and put a very expensive new heated hot floor on top of the old one. A few box handling problems resulted from the 'lower ceiling'.

And just like before, there were benefits to the heated boxes. But extracting wasn't optimum unless the extracting room itself was heated above 90F. Only one problem. The extracting room was in a poorly insulated steel building. And it took a half day to get the temps that high when the weather was cold and windy.

All seems like a round-a-bout way of getting heat to the honey to me. And lots of places to loose that heat as uncapped frames/empty extractors wait for loading, etc.

But then, it might be a good thing this time of year. Put a grow light in a corner of the extracting room. Set up a few palm trees, banana plants, etc. Use that lost heat to create a better northern environment. Maybe even I could enjoy my least favorite bee job. Nah... not even with a fan, a deck chair and some iced drinks. 

Take Care Guys - Dennis


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Who says the slab has to be huge the extracting room uninsulated or the combs in there long enough to de-hydrate? We turn ours on as soon as the nights starting getting cool and I consider it one of the best improvements I have ever made. If memory serves me I think the initial system was between 3 and 4 thousand, it has been trouble free for 9 seasons and counting and occasionally gets used in the winter as a work area as well. The honey gets dried out very little because our rule (ours and anyone else who deals with shb) is that no boxes sit longer than 5 days in the hot room. Not only does the honey extract much better but the combs de-box and run through the uncapper much easier when the wax and propolis arent brittle. Before shb became a problem we might let them sit in there for a couple weeks and things could get pretty dry but we could help that quite a bit simply by spraying water on the floor a couple times a day. This year I would estimate we will use no more than 150 gallons of propane to heat both our hot room and extracting room while running the last 120 barrels of our honey crop. At 1.65 per gallon for propane that would be about $250 which is at current prices about 1/5th of 1% of the value of the honey extracted. It wouldnt take much honey gained to make the argument that it has paid for itself many times over.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

Here's what I did that changed my thinking on a hot room versus a hot extractor. Maybe it will work for you or not.

Anyway. Measure a few temperatures.Take the temperature of the hot room and a frame of honey:
-ready to wheel to the extracting floor in the hot room.
-the same honey frame after you've deboxed, scraped, etc., before it goes through the knife.
-again immediately before it's put into the extractor.
-of the honey coming out of the extractor.
-of the frame after it's extracted.
-extracting room.

Regards - Dennis


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## Woodside (Aug 10, 2010)

Well Dennis I understand where you are coming from. You are figuring a hot room is an inefficient way of heating up honey (and is compared to self contained heating). Ive extracted both cold and hot honey, and can often feel a warm or hot sensation when loading the extractors from hot room honey, and sometimes i feel an ice cold sensation when from cold honey. That tells me the honey is not reaching equilibrium within 40 mins of being outside of the hot room. 

If we look at taking out the inefficient (even though cheap) method of the hotroom, and only switching to dry heat or steam systems contained within an extractor. Will the honey be able to warm up just as fast from 65 degrees to 90, as it will take from 80 - 90. Engineering says no, but it MAY be a factor of a few seconds, or maybe minutes, and if so then it might work just as well. I understand that the amount of honey extracted has diminishing returns over time, meaning the first 5 minutes will get 85% the next 5 mins will get 10%, then next 5 get 5% or something along those lines. steam on the other had has increasing returns, steam doesnt affect much until the last 7 minutes because it takes too much time to heat up 100% of honey inside the extractor, but not much time to heat up 10% especically since the 10% has more surface area applied to the environment (which would be hot inside of an extractor).

But there are other benefits to having pre heated boxes. Its pretty cheap to heat a hot room, and as mentioned before even if you are able to squeeze just a tiny bit more out then it pays for itself.

I feel that I dont have enough facts to say which system would be better in the long run, but I do know that what ive been doing works so ill probably stick to that haha.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

Just tossing out some unfinished ideas from my decade old commercial days. Guess I had lots of time to think about things while extracting back then. And today, I don't have the means to test or try any of it. My beekeeping is now in a completely different universe than back then.

It doesn't have to be a hot extractor or a hot room. It might be possible to preheat them in the hot room, although at a lower temp, maybe even a much lower temperature, and finish them off with steam.

Sounds like some of you guys are running pretty efficient already and it might not make much of a difference to change anything.

Dennis


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Not so fast a little good spirited debate is always fun and I did like the banana idea.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>It might be possible to preheat them in the hot room, although at a lower temp, maybe even a much lower temperature, and finish them off with steam.

ya, your on the right mind track.
I often wonder of the waste of energy it takes to warm the honey. But thats just the cost of doing business.
I also need to keep the honey warmer rather than cooler to slow granulation of the honey in the comb


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Gee Keith,
Just like the truck comment.A steamer would work great in your TONKA TOY.


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