# curving combs



## mistergil (May 24, 2007)

I would suspect some error in the bee space is predisposing them to mal-form. I haven't had this problem as they follow the small one inch foundation bait strips that I have hanging from the TB's, which are standard Kelley replacement top bars. The hives were built using their dimensions as a starting point so I didn't have to make the TB's as well as standardization. (Lazy as well as like to move things between hives)

You are only looking at four frames and if only honey, I would pull them and use what's there for toast and biscuits while replacing the frames and seeing if it improves the build sequence. If they continue as is they will have the remaining frames off as well compounding the problem for you. It wouldn't take more than a few minutes to pull and replace them early in the day before the afternoon heat built up. If they are strong it shouldn't affect them too much pulling the frames as your season is long in Ala. and they'll have ample time to rebuild them. If they do it again at least you'll have less frames to deal with. Please tell us how you make out.


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## JensLarsen (Mar 14, 2007)

I use 32 mm topbars for brood and 38 mm for honey. I get this by using a spacer strip of 6 mm. My top bars are only 380 mm so curving comb is not a problem. The curve actually gives extra strengh to the comb.

Solutions might be:
- shorter top bars
- 38 mm c-c spacing for honey
- insert straight comb every second
- more distinct starter strip/guide, perhaps a whole sheet of foundation

or just wait and harvest the whole chunk...


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

When you revert 150 years in modern technology you have to expect some bumps in the road and curves in your combs.


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## TX Ashurst (May 31, 2005)

You didn't do anything wrong. The bees seem to like a little curve in their comb (engineering-wise a curve is much stronger than a straight line structure. I wonder what Univ. those bees graduated from?), so if the bars are on the long side, they often put a curve in it as they are finishing the comb.

If it's not too curved and not yet full of honey, I cut along the top of the comb, no more than 1/4 of the length of the comb. That let's me bend it back where I want it and the bees will reattach it to the bar. Needless to say, I don't pick up the frames when doing this. Careful, careful, careful!

Once they cross 2 bars, you've got to either harvest the stuck-together combs and let them start over, or cut it out and tie it back, straight. You can't leave it alone because it only gets worse.


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## ooptec (Jul 16, 2007)

*off the bars*

In my TB Hive the bee's built beautiful straight comb before the main flow. But when main flow was/is on the comb building has gone like (not well lol).

All sorts of permeations and was especially bad as if inserted a blank Bar w/starter strip between built comb or the outermost blank Bars. It seemed it was easier to enlarge adjacent built comb so it extended beyond the width of the TB and then the slower new const. was correspondingly off center. 

At first tried trimming the comb back to wanted width but was messy and tied them up not foraging for a day or two till they cleaned it up and now am resigned till it gets too out of hand as seems as if (hopefully maybe?) they might eventually to some extent correct it. (maybe, hopefully lol)

cheers

peter


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

You guys are a kick to read. I sympathize with the problems you have when you ride your horse and buggy to town. Does your hand water pump out in the yard work OK? How about the old wood stove? Too bad the local Pony Express rider was killed by Indians, you won't be able to send a letter to BeeSource.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The bees seem to like a little curve to the comb. Of course it's not practical to have it running to the next bar so you need to get them straight. You can do this when the comb isn't too heavy by just pushing it in line or cutting it loose and pushing it over. If it's too heavy with honey you may have to just cut the curving bit off. If you get them drawing between two straight combs they will draw them straight. So feeding empties between two well drawn combs is a good way to get more well drawn combs. Putting a straight comb anywhere (like on the end) will tend to get them straight again. Having a "swarm ketching frame" (see the plans section) will allow you to put a comb in a frame so it will be straight to get the rest in line.

The sooner you straighten things out the better as they will continue to build each subsequent comb to the pattern of the previous comb.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

odfrank said:


> You guys are a kick to read. I sympathize with the problems you have when you ride your horse and buggy to town. Does your hand water pump out in the yard work OK? How about the old wood stove? Too bad the local Pony Express rider was killed by Indians, you won't be able to send a letter to BeeSource.



Nothing very helpful or productive in that comment! Glad your getting a kick out of the people who are trying to fix the damage done by 150 years of modern technology!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

What damage is done by using a full frame versus a top bar? Yes, a bit more wood is consumed. What damage is done using foundation? What damage is done by using some wire? You are proposing that top bar hive users somehow saving the environment? 
I could find enough wood in two minutes with a stroll through the forest to make up for every side and bottom bar I have thrown away in my 37 years as a beekeeper. Probably enough wood is thrown into landfills daily to replace all the frames in the world. I don't see how frame type hives do damage. Please teach me.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

No one said anything about frame type hives doing any damage. They were talking about curved comb in TBH's. Thats why this forum is called Top Bar Hives we discuss the hives we perfer to use. What I was refering to is man's attempt to make a better bee by using foundation, motivated by greed. We totally ignored what was good for the bee in our 150 years of modern technology as a result we made them weaker. Mother Nature has been evolving since the beginning of time 150 years is a blink of an eye to her. In comparison we are children. Unfortunatly some of the children are playing with a match called technology with out fully investigating the damages they are causing. But I have been down this road before and will not get pulled into an argument again. If you like dumping chemicles, time, and money into your hives feel free to do so no one here is stopping you we just choose not to. If we amuse you by having cleaner honey and wax great what ever make you happy. If you think it's about saving wood I suggest you catch up on your research and teach yourself.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

YOU DID!!! Or that is what you imply.

quote:

"Nothing very helpful or productive in that comment! Glad your getting a kick out of the people who are trying to fix the damage done by 150 years of modern technology!"


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Damage- frame type hives
Sorry, don't see it

Damage- technology (much more than just frame type hives) 
Ahh! there it is

Thought I cleared that up in my last post Or did you not bother to read it.

and before you ask, NO, research it yourself. I already have.

I'm done with this conversation it's boring. It is really mind over matter.
I don't mind what "frame type hive" user" do to thier hives, nor do I get a "kick" out of it, because it really does not matter to me.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

odfrank said:


> What damage is done by using a full frame versus a top bar? Yes, a bit more wood is consumed. What damage is done using foundation? What damage is done by using some wire? You are proposing that top bar hive users somehow saving the environment?
> I could find enough wood in two minutes with a stroll through the forest to make up for every side and bottom bar I have thrown away in my 37 years as a beekeeper. Probably enough wood is thrown into landfills daily to replace all the frames in the world. I don't see how frame type hives do damage. Please teach me.


If you are open minded and not just trying to provoke a pointless argument, we will be happy to answer your questions. 
For starters, sustainability (which is just one of the advantages of a TBH in non-beekeeping terms) is much more about the energy consumption of a given technology than its use of renewable resources per se. Wood itself - as you rightly point out - is hardly the issue, but have you considered the total energy usage of a beekeeping operation based on Langstroths, that requires extractors, oil-powered heavy transport and all manner of kit, compared with the sheer simplicity of a TBH-based setup that uses pretty much any timber, roughly cut, plus a knife and a bucket? Or have the concepts of global warming and peak oil completely passed you by?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

buckbee said:


> rightly point out - is hardly the issue, but have you considered the total energy usage of a beekeeping operation based on Langstroths, that requires extractors, oil-powered heavy transport and all manner of kit, compared with the sheer simplicity of a TBH-based setup that uses pretty much any timber, roughly cut, plus a knife and a bucket? Or have the concepts of global warming and peak oil completely passed you by?


If I were to haul a flatbed full of 450 topbar hives to the almonds for pollinating, how would fuel be saved? If I were to produce the same weight of honey in top bar hives as I did in frame type hives, could I produce it profitably cutting out the combs with a knife and crushing them by hand? Could I even produce the same volume of honey from a topbar hive as I could from a box/frame hive with a similar time investment?


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

odfrank said:


> If I were to haul a flatbed full of 450 topbar hives to the almonds for pollinating, how would fuel be saved? If I were to produce the same weight of honey in top bar hives as I did in frame type hives, could I produce it profitably cutting out the combs with a knife and crushing them by hand? Could I even produce the same volume of honey from a topbar hive as I could from a box/frame hive with a similar time investment?


I think you are kinda missing the point here. Top bar is about small-scale and localized beekeeping. Nobody would seriously suggest hauling TBHs across country like that - they are simply not suitable for that kind of beekeeping - and I would argue that migratory beekeeping is the underlying cause of most of the problems we have with bees now anyway. If you want to study the whole argument behind that, I can recommend a good book for you to read... 

As to your other questions: if you factor in the initial investment in hives and their maintenance costs over a given period, plus the energy usage in hauling supers, extracting, sterilizing, etc and compare it with the energy and time costs of setting up and managing TBHs, I think you would be surprised. I know people who get yields from their TBHs comparable to those from Langs in similar conditions, but even if your yields were a little lower, you would still be on the winning side with healthier, less stressed bees as a bonus.


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## Wojtek (May 31, 2005)

“Unruly” combs.
Summary of excerpt from web site in Polish language http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/Obsluga.htm
The two methods combined or separately pertaining to “unruly” combs are practiced by the author.
At a time of installation of a new packet and at a time of reach flow of nectar frequent inspection is necessary to correct potential abnormality in construction of combs. Incorrect initiation of construction magnifies itself in following combs and could cause large and difficult problem which, in turn, may discourage a novice in TBH practice if he will not be able to cope with it efficiently.
Combs starting completely abnormally have to be eliminated. If there is correct initiation but comb just progressively deviates from the straight line and this comb is about 10 cm vertically and not filled with honey yet it should be cut in transverse plane in the place of attachment and gently bent to a correct position. If this is very close to the side wall this will be sufficient. Bees will quickly repair a cut and reattach it. If there is still more than about 10 cm or more to a side wall beside of bending the author uses the method called “szczypta wosku” – “pinch of wax”. A pinch of fresh wax is taken from a new comb squeezed flat between two fingers and attached a few cm. from the side wall. Bees usually initiate a comb in this place and later join the other part of comb in nice straight line. It is also good practice to use the method of “pinch of wax’ prophylacticaly, - several cm from side walls if a comb is initiated in the middle or just on one side if comb started on a side. Several “pinches” are not bad too.
The photos depicts the two small combs initiated from such “pinches” on the sides, and the following picture shows joined comb after a few days.
The third photo shows interesting phenomenon. On the 11-th 22” long completely straight comb, suddenly, these bees decided to experiment differently, in a innovative way. They decided to build in the exactly straight angle to all other combs and in the middle of length of TB.


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

How long are you top bars if you dont' mind my asking?



beeprice said:


> My bees (new TBH as per M. Bush...bees installed 5/1/07) got through bar #14 making nice straight brood combs. Starting with 15 they are storing honey (I work the hive standing with the entrance at my left) and they are starting to curve to the right about 4 or 5 inches from the far end (from me) of the bars. The last few inches of number 15 are partially attached to 16 and the last few inches of 16 are attached to 17. They are just starting on 18. I am reluctant to do anything about this situation right now as it is in the high 90's each afternoon and will most likely be that way for most of August. What (if anything) would have caused them to wander off like this? What should I do when it cools down? How cool should it be before I do anything?


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## DaveWilliamsTX (Aug 16, 2007)

odfrank said:


> You guys are a kick to read. I sympathize with the problems you have when you ride your horse and buggy to town. Does your hand water pump out in the yard work OK? How about the old wood stove? Too bad the local Pony Express rider was killed by Indians, you won't be able to send a letter to BeeSource.


I'm glad we amuse you, just as an FYI to you I would not have gotten started as a hobby bee keeper if not for the simplicity of Top Bar Hives. 

I think if you really consider the points that buckbee is making you'd see why trying to mimic nature when working with nature makes a lot of sense to a lot of people. No one is asking you to convert or try a TBH, just don't let your 30 plus years of experience make you narrow-minded to other concepts in beekeeping.

On the issue of curving comb, keep us updated on how it goes - this thread convinced me to remake most of my bars to make them much more accurate and straight. I've also decided on using two different widths of bar for brood and honey storage.


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

Yeah, the Langstroth hive and modern bee managment are perfection. Never mind the CCD, Varroa, foulbrood - nevermind chemically tainted honey from mite treatments. It's just a bump in the road. Nope, Langers can't learn a thing from TBH's. They've got it down pat.



DaveWilliamsTX said:


> I'm glad we amuse you, just as an FYI to you I would not have gotten started as a hobby bee keeper if not for the simplicity of Top Bar Hives.
> 
> I think if you really consider the points that buckbee is making you'd see why trying to mimic nature when working with nature makes a lot of sense to a lot of people. No one is asking you to convert or try a TBH, just don't let your 30 plus years of experience make you narrow-minded to other concepts in beekeeping.
> 
> On the issue of curving comb, keep us updated on how it goes - this thread convinced me to remake most of my bars to make them much more accurate and straight. I've also decided on using two different widths of bar for brood and honey storage.


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## DaveWilliamsTX (Aug 16, 2007)

Well, I didn't want to go there and open up a whole other can of worms, but yea another reason TBH's make sense, especially for the small scale bee keeper.



Scut Farkas said:


> Yeah, the Langstroth hive and modern bee managment are perfection. Never mind the CCD, Varroa, foulbrood - nevermind chemically tainted honey from mite treatments. It's just a bump in the road. Nope, Langers can't learn a thing from TBH's. They've got it down pat.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Scut Farkas said:


> Yeah, the Langstroth hive and modern bee managment are perfection. Never mind the CCD, Varroa, foulbrood - nevermind chemically tainted honey from mite treatments. It's just a bump in the road. Nope, Langers can't learn a thing from TBH's. They've got it down pat.


I still don't understand how the use of top bar hives avoids CCD, Varroa, foulbrood......so it's the silver bullet?


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

Frank, I'm a novcies novice - but from my reading I think the Langstroth hive and modern beekeeping philosophy have perpetuated and possibly even created these issues.

It's like this, if you play in the street and get hit by a car - then that's your own dumb fault for following an ill conceived philosophy (langs). If you don't play in the street and you don't get hit by the car - that's not a silver bullet to cure anything - but it is the ounce of prevention that keeps you out of trouble (TBH).



odfrank said:


> I still don't understand how the use of top bar hives avoids CCD, Varroa, foulbrood......so it's the silver bullet?


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

odfrank said:


> I still don't understand how the use of top bar hives avoids CCD, Varroa, foulbrood......so it's the silver bullet?


Let me try to explain what you could read if you were truly interested in the bees instead of pushing a dumb comment further to oblivion!!!

TBH hives allow natural comb to be built which is the basis for co-existence with mites especially in the core brood nest!!!! SEE Dennis Murrell's site he explaines it great.

If you don't get it after that then there's nothing to be said for your 30+ years of bee having!!!


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

TBHs are not a silver bullet, they are a choice.

There are so many different TBH variations that when the term is used nobody has any idea what the configuration is e.g. sloped or vertical, frames with or without sidebars, length, height, width, etc.

The most consistent factor of a TBH may be that the top bar is full width, and even that is not always true now that you have Supercell being used in TBHs to regress immediately to small cell.

There are Lang keepers on this list who use starter strips and natural comb.

The 'founder' of the small cell movement is Dee Lusby and she regressed with Langs.

TBHs can get AFB, EFB and chalkbrood (and Dee believes that until you get below 4.9mm in the brood nest those problems will not disappear).

Langs do not prevent you from pursuing any avenue you want in managing bees.

You guys are arguing about management techniques, not the kind of hive used to house the bees.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

We are not arguing about anything, well not all of us. The point that is being missed is the rudeness and thoughtlessness of the original comment posted and he is just not getting it! It is sad that someone actually has to say suck it up, apologize, drop it and move on to something more productive!


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## Wojtek (May 31, 2005)

No curving combs anymore!! Real superbees in real superktbh. 
I have made two KTBH hives differently than before. Apparently, even not knowing about it, it was male and female hives because one day I saw little twins beside of these two hives. What was more astonished for me, one of this twines was already with bees. I am sure that these bees are superbeeees. If you don’t believe, see the picture:
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/SuperKTBH.jpg
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/SuperKTBHwithTwins.jpg
Pssst… don’t say about this langstrothers, but anyway, they don’t know how to handle it, -they are experienced.
Besides, as you already know, experienced in beekeeping is a one who is repeating the same errors for many years. Experience of 30 + years is the huge experience.

My personal conviction is that bees know more about us then we know about them, and that is why they are not biting us as appreciation for giving them opportunity for doing what they wont to do and did for millions years. They told me in secret that they hate this langstrothers. In secret because they already know about punishable “hate crime” and "war against terrorizm" especially against suicidal terrorists.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

A point often lost sight of when discussing the 'best' bee stuff, is that beekeepers keep bees for a variety of reasons. In my case, I'd only known large scale commercial beekeeping for 30+ years. And I thought small scale beekeeping was just a reduced version of the same. But I've discovered that sure isn't the best approach.

Handling curving comb is one aspect of tbh beekeeping not often encountered in a frame based hive. I think a list describing exclusive management techniques could be made for each system of beekeeping. Not backward or advanced. Just different.

For me, the easy comb rotation/replacement was a clincher for a tbh over a frame based Lang. I think keeping the broodnest clean is a major factor for colony health.

Regards
Dennis


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

I wonder if shorter bars would reduce or eliminate curving comb. Seems like most people have bars that are around a foot and a half long. What if you had a bar that was 15 or 16 inches long - would that help? 


D. Murrell said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> A point often lost sight of when discussing the 'best' bee stuff, is that beekeepers keep bees for a variety of reasons. In my case, I'd only known large scale commercial beekeeping for 30+ years. And I thought small scale beekeeping was just a reduced version of the same. But I've discovered that sure isn't the best approach.
> 
> ...


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Dennis 
I need your opinion on some pics I sent them to your yahoo e-mail and I PMed you a while ago.


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

I usually find that the combs begin to curve the more you get towards the ends of the hive. Usually it’s not that much of a problem since it only crosses over to just one other bar and it’s only one to three inches that is actually curving (my combs are about 16 or 17 inches wide at the top in my KIenyan tbhs). I usually just slip the hive tool underneath to the next bar and free it. And since it’s usually at the end of the box, that means it’s going to be filled up with honey anyways and I’ll eventually have to cut it off to harvest it. Also, those combs with a bit of curve just get pushed back as I add bars further up by the nice straight combs (and where they will build them nice and straight).

As far as bar length affecting curving, I think it does play a part. My Tanzanian tbhs (rectangular) can take a normal langstroth frame. The width is about 20 inches and the curving is more frequent than with my Kenyan tbhs (trapezoidal) But still, it’s usually as you get to the ends of the box.

It’s kind of annoying but you just deal with it (sort of like trying to pry langstroth boxes up that are glued to the frames below it—no system works exactly like you would want it to).

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Tom


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Scut Farkas said:


> I wonder if shorter bars would reduce or eliminate curving comb. Seems like most people have bars that are around a foot and a half long. What if you had a bar that was 15 or 16 inches long - would that help?


I think it has more to do with bar width than length. Having bars the right width for your particular bees/climate is the key, IMO.

I used short bars and a narrow hive in my early experiments, and while they built straight comb, it was firmly attached to both sides and impossible to work. I now use 17" bars with a 15" internal width.


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## Ruby (Jul 22, 2006)

hey folks
I have only had first year hives draw their comb curved or crossing bars, and then mostly towards the back. Using two bar widths does help ( I use 1-3/8 and 1-1/2) but I am not always that consistant with it, and simply cutting the ends and bending them back as well (although sometimes they do not fully repair and this may weaken the comb, in the summer when it is hot, especially heavy comb full of honey). Since it is usually the honey comb that is curved or crossed I often just hrvest it, or harvest the ends and let them rebuild. I place the cut comb between two straight combs. And sduring the build-up and summer months I add a bar or two between straight combs every time I manage--usually one near the front of the brood chamber and one between two newer storage combs. Since I have dont this I have had little issue with curved combs.
happy harvest
ruby


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