# Full time beekeepers



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

There are so many variables that anything ventured would be a W-A_G! Find the price of honey, find the price of bees, equipment, supplies, fuel, facilities, unknown losses due to weather, pesticide, animals, vandals and plain dumb luck and always, your personal ablities. Amount of rain, of snow, of days too windy, late frosts, early frosts, ad infinitum! After assigning numbers to it all you will have an estimate of your question. Could vary from 500 to 500,000 colonies.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Vance, very well said.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Yeah, I was going to go full-time many, many years ago. Pollination is hard to get into as many farmers already had contracts and trusted RELATIONSHIPS with other beekeepers. No grower wants to switch until they know you can deliver the goods. Undercutting another pollinator is a short-term proposition with little benefit to anyone.

My very first honey crop was sold to the CCC for a crop loan. I needed the money to pay bills. If I had kept my day job, I would have the patience to MARKET my honey for a much better price. Once you DEVELOP a customer base, they'll come back. But this takes patience. 

This is not a business you can jump into with instant results. It's like farming. If I had to do it all over again and wanted to go full-time, I'd have a day job to pay the bills and get established. Stay debt-free. I'd work with an established commercial beekeeper with plans to either buy-in or partnership. Or I'd go slow on my own and build the business, learn the trade, making my own splits rather than selling bees. I wished I learned how to raise my own queens so I could work toward self-reliance. Then you'll start growing and you'll be forced to make choices. I'm at a point where my retail honey marketing is cramping my time in the bee yard and my production is suffering. I'm moving toward more wholesale bottled honey. 

There's a million ways to make money keeping bees. The number of hives is totally irrevelant. If I could sell my honey for $7,000 a pound, I'd only need one hive! Your lifestyle, your spouse's attitude toward risk, your dependent's needs all play into making a "living" from bees.

I wish you well.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Grant's response is the voice of experience. I encourage you to listen to it and while you are at it check out his 25 Hives E-book.

The other consideration I'd make is the honey producing / bee growing potential for the area you live in. Find out what the historical per hive production of honey is for your area and then think about your ability to locate sufficient hives in that area to make a living.

Where I live ranks in the bottom 20% of honey producing areas in the US. While I can certainly dream of making a living from bees, it wouldn't be smart to bet the mortgage on it!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

In my country, the figure that's often quoted is 1,000 hives per man. However there are some beekeepers doing less than that, I know one guy living on 600 hives.

A way to live on bees with less investment is to not do honey but breed and sell bees and queens. you could probably get away with say, 100 hives plus a few thousand nucs, although these numbers are very variable depending just how you will run it. Less plant is needed due to not extracting honey.

Got to say though, down the years I've seen a lot of people get into bees and fail. For some reason people know that if you want to be a plumber you have to do a 3 year apprenticeship, but assume that you can start a beekeeping business with no experience and succeed.

If you want to have a bee business, I would recommend first working for a commercial beekeeper full time for one year at minimum. If you can't fit that in / make that work, you won't make your own beekeeping business work either.

I'd also suggest asking your question on the commercial forum.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Grow your colony count as fast as your business abilities allow and you will find out the answer for yourself. That is the only way you will know. Each of us has our own abilities, desires, and drive. Beekeepers who are also businessmen w/ a lot of drive and determination/focus are the ones who find a way to reach their goals. Being a workaholic who knows how to keep bees is one way.

Best of luck.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

let your bees pay for increase. dont buy anything that will not pay for itself. the most important is dont borrow money depending on a honey crop to pay off the loan. taking an extra year or two will pay off. depending on your needs 500 hives would be min. bottle your honey for local markets will increase your income. working for a commercial guy would be your best education starting out. using someones else experence will save you mistakes and money. good luck


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Well said, Oldtimer! There is a lot of wisdom in those lines.
I have friends who are successful commercial beekeepers and I know that I'm not cut out to be one. I stick to my 20 or so hives and enjoy the work. I'm to old anyway. 20 hives keep me busy looking after, making gear, extracting and selling. It is a paying hobby and very enjoyable.
If I was a lot younger I would consider manufacturing and selling Beekeeping equipment or studying Entomology and specialising in bees - never commercial beekeeping!


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

Judging from other full time beeks

You need to do MUCH more than just sell honey.

you have to deal in a wax market durring the winter months. As with any raw material, the more you refine it the better price you get, but the more time you have in it. Could just sell cappings and wax from frames bulk by the pound. or refine it, melt it down , strain it and sell it in various size blocks, or go the next step and make candles.

You need to develop both proplis and pollen markets. Both are high value items that the bees will produce, but you have to develop the market for them.

Do all full time beeks deal with selling bees? I was under the impression most did not fool with 3lb packages or nucs as they spent enough time trying to develop there own splits etc to recoup losses and expand.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

No only a few sell significant numbers of bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

schmism said:


> As with any raw material, the more you refine it the better price you get, but the more time you have in it. Could just sell cappings and wax from frames bulk by the pound. or refine it, melt it down , strain it and sell it in various size blocks, or go the next step and make candles.
> 
> You need to develop both proplis and pollen markets.



I would say to keep it simple. Concentrate on the bees and sell the honey and wax for as much as possible w/ the least amount of processing. Find what pollination one can and build those accounts, demanding a decent price for the service. Selling nucs, if there is a market, but mostly building up and maintaining your own numbers.

I know there are those who do make candles and sell pollen retail, but you have to be that person. Many of us aren't. Do what you do the best and leave the rest to others. Don't try to do everything.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Commercial beeks are agriculturist. So many people want to be in one of the various forms of agriculture. The lure of working in the great out-of-doors and being independent (which you won’t be) draws many a person into agriculture.

I state the above so that you will understand the field is crowded. There are more wannabees than there are slots. Can you enter the field? Yes. Can you make a living? My favorite old cattle rancher/hay raiser friend says it thusly, “I don’t make a living, I live on what I make.” There is a lot of meat in that phrase for beginners. I don’t think you can earn a lot of money in beekeeping until you build a really big business. I would guess that if you remain a one man operation you will be lucky to ever see the north side of 50 grand. And to do that, I think you will have to specialize in some type of bees and sell lots of queens and nucs. It will take years to build your reputation and get the equipment In place.

I don’t want to rain on your parade, but I do want you to understand it will take time and lots of start up money to become a commercial beek. My advice would be to keep your day job and work a few hives as a sideline for a few years and learn how to keep bees and save a lot of money for wooden ware. This is something you can do and have an enjoyable life at the same time.

You can do it, but it will take a few years of sacrifice and learning. I’ve only been a hobbyist beekeeper for one year, so I could be full of it. Just remember, most new businesses fail because of lack of capital.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I worked for a number of years with farmers looking into alternative, high value-crops. My advice to them was only start out with what you can afford to lose. None ever lost it all. None ever made the maximum potential the first year or two. The most successful ones adapted crops to the market they developed. Some produced small amounts but direct marketed to the consumer for a relatively high price. Some produced higher acreages but marketed to a wholesale market.

Tom


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> If you want to have a bee business, I would recommend first working for a commercial beekeeper full time for one year at minimum.


I am sure there is a lot of wisdom in your post but if you work for a commercial beekeeper full time how do you make a living? Is he going to support you? I think not.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Acebird said:


> if you work for a commercial beekeeper full time how do you make a living?


 Bit like any other job, you live on your pay.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It is a business. Learn what you need to know about running a business. That, or learn the ropes as you go. Learning what someone elase thinks you should do as far as running a business is concerned may only discourage you from doing so.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Never underestimate the value of diversification. If you can knock down say, $5,000-$10,000 per year off of bees and do it with a reasonable amount of time and effort you might be ahead to just invest that money in something else. Over a lifetime that kind of steady and diciplined savings may be worth more than trying to earn a living off of bees.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Bit like any other job, you live on your pay.


I don't know anybody that does that besides me. It is not popular these days. Even with the economic crash.
But let's say I was willing to do that. How many commercial beekeepers could afford to hire someone full time? Can they keep someone fully employed just tending bees? I think they can't. I think a beekeeping business has a demand for man hours all at once just like farming and the rest of the time you have to find something else to do. You can't keep someone fully employed. And there is the nutshell, diversification like Barry says. What is a good marriage for a beekeeping business? What are you going to do when there ain't nothing to do?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird, Your range of experience relating to Commercial Beekeepers is too narrow. Many Commercial Operations have full time employees.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

They could be full time employees but it is doubtful they are tending bees full time and I am sure the numbers are few and far between that anyone on this forum could just go work for a commercial operator. Give me a list Mark. Can you find one in the state that has a job opening? I have never seen a job listing ever, anywhere, for full time employment.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Acebird - "They could be full time employees but it is doubtful they are tending bees full time "
As with any other farming/outdoor work somebody being employed by a professional beekeeper would during wet or lean periods also do maintenace on gear and vehicles, paint, assemble...
Many farming enterprises have peak demand and slack periods.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> They could be full time employees but it is doubtful they are tending bees full time and I am sure the numbers are few and far between that anyone on this forum could just go work for a commercial operator. Give me a list Mark. Can you find one in the state that has a job opening? I have never seen a job listing ever, anywhere, for full time employment.


It's doubtful that you only breath and eat too. What's your point? Full time employment is full time employment.

There are a dozen or so Commercial operations in NY. Call Paul Cappy for their contact info. I have no personal info on whether any of them are hiring at this time.

I'm not going to give you a list. You aren't really looking for a job anyway. And I don't think you are qualified.

Commercial Beekeepers that I know have never listed a job. They have other methods for finding employees.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Though I am in no position to hire a full time employee yet I have posted 1 time for help with bees. Posted to pay good amount of cash for short periods to hard work with the bees on craigslist. All I got in return was someone who made a comment I am retarded to think anyone would drive 1 hour for working with stinging insects. I ended up getting a guy I knew from High School who was out of work at the time to drive 2 hours to help me.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ace most of my beekeeping career was spent working for others, and always in a full time capacity. How much there is to do in winter depends how clever the boss is, places I worked knew they would not get top staff if they just offered them bits here and there it had to be full time. These jobs are rarely advertised there are a lot more people wanting to work for beekeepers than what there are jobs. However I've linked a job ad from my country just to show you.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/jobs/trades-services/other/listing-458333115.htm

The places I worked the boss knew he had to provide year round employment so winter jobs took the form of processing and packing honey and other products, making new equipment, maintaining vehicles etc. I have heard of smaller beekeepers who are able to organise a couple of months off in winter, that's just their choice, if they sell honey in bulk and buy in equipment, they can probably do that. 

It is possible to create work. For example, one place I worked we made our hives from scratch, starting with standing trees we bought in the forest. We made more woodenware than our own needs and sold to other beekeepers.

As to Barry's idea of running bees as a sideline to make a few extra thousand, that's also a pretty good idea, basically what I'm doing now myself.


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

Working as an employee in agri. is like going to college. You hope to make enough to live on while you study and learn a skill or trade that MAY allow you to make better wages.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

I get asked all the time.... So what else do you guys do besides keep bees? Thats all we do and it takes 7 of us full time and a lot of part time help to make everything happen.
I don't know if you can hire a beekeeper. There are none that I know of looking for work. Most are wishing for a day off every now and then.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Got a job for Acebird?


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

There's just no way I could work as hard as one has to in order to be a successful commercial beekeeper.


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## Northwest PA Beekeeper (Mar 28, 2012)

Yes, your question has so many variables. It's like me asking "How much money do I need to buy a house?"

I would think getting into he business full time - enough to make a living from would be hard. As has been said - what market or markets are you going to go after? Just honey? Honey and bees? Queens? Equipment?

Even just getting enough bees to have a pollinating contract - trying to get an "in" would be hard enough. Then you have variables in dates on when the pollination needs done - it would change yearly depending on the weather. And moving from location to location - the farmer NEEDS you there at a certain time. If you are still at another place waiting for the pollination time to end - the farmer waiting ISN'T going to be happy. Transportation, insurance, and you would probably need a helper.

Even honey production isn't a get rich quick scheme. You have to buy (or build) the equipment, the bees, hope the weather and plants cooperate. And even when you do have a harvest - you need to have a market for it.

My suggestion - and I'm just a newbie myself - would be to start out slow and expand as you can.

I'm guessing the fulltime beekeeper is "overtime" part of the time - everything needs done at once, and then there are slow periods. And a major concern would behaving a backup plan. What happens if you are fulltime and you get sick or break a leg or arm. You just can't send your neighbor in to do the work when they know nothing about bees.


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## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

Acebird, Give Mike Palmer a call. He has hired full time people in the past and pays well. Of course full-time is probably more like 60 hrs a week.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

berkshire bee said:


> Acebird, Give Mike Palmer a call. He has hired full time people in the past and pays well. Of course full-time is probably more like 60 hrs a week.


More like 80, but no matter. Want a job Ace? Can you follow instructions without arguing?  Hee, Hee!...think Nelson


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird is not looking for a job, he is simply asking a question.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Yes there are always opportunities for employment with commercial beekeepers but they rarely advertise because the applicants are rarely people that have any idea what they are really applying for. Few have ever been exposed to long days of manual labor wearing hot suits and surrounded by mean bees. Most of the larger outfits get their help from Latin America. There are a lot of eager hard working folks down there who are thrilled to get work up here. The down side to that is the paper work that must be done well in advance, housing, the language barrier and they are often unable to drive. It's interesting to note that one requirement to getting these workers is that you must also be advertising for help locally so beekeepers will take out ads looking for help locally and are usually srprised if they ever get a response. If someone really wants to do that kind of work I would suggest that they should advertise their services available along with their qualifications here and in national publications. Good beekeepers willing to work for someone else are hard to find.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Want a job Ace? Can you follow instructions without arguing?


This ought too bee good. Where's the popcorn at....


MP, IOU 1 .


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Wow. Some of you make it sound like it is impossible to run a full time bee keeping business.

I am just a new hobbiest, but my guess is that in general a full time beekeeping business is similar to most other one-man-run businesses - there is a huge amount of hard work, things are touch and go in the beginning, you make no money at first, you need to build relationships in the business to grow your business, you have to work hard and be smart and creative to survive, if you are lucky and smart and work hard the business grows and things get better, regardless of how good you are it takes time to build the business, you can do everything right and still not make it, you can be wiped out at anytime by the unexpected, you won't get rich your first year, you probably will never get rich.


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## Tiwilager (Mar 13, 2012)

I plan to start keeping bees as a hobby this year. If that eventually turns into a small business, that is great!

I can't even imagine the amount of equipment and work that would be required to go full time. All I know is that it is a lot.

If it does turn into a small business, I plan to keep my day job and hopefully my bees can take me into an early retirement. At that point I can still keep them for some income, and it will give me something to do.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

If I were young and wanting to get into beekeeping I would want to be paid to work for some beekeepers.
Others I would work for for free.
And still others I would pay to work for.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> I ended up getting a guy I knew from High School who was out of work at the time to drive 2 hours to help me.


In all fairness that 2 hour drive to and 2 hour drive back is going to cost him more than $100. I am guessing but I don't think you would pay him much more than that or even as high as that. I suspect we will loose our single part time employee due to gas prices very shortly. Even at $10 per hour he could do better on welfare and not incur the cost of travel.



> Most of the larger outfits get their help from Latin America.


And so it is with agriculture. The wage is not livable to even the lower middle class in the US.

MP, Mark is right I am not looking for a job. For one thing I am not capable of doing the physical work. I am sure you all realize that there are far easier ways of making a living than working for a beekeeper. That is just the way it is. At least general farming has been mechanized to a point where heavy lifting is far less necessary, beekeeping not so much.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

To make 50K revenue before expenses you need just under 70 hives.
Of course you will need to have a few more to cover your expenses.

This is how an outsider does the math.

Per Hive
Florida Oranges 100# honey + splitting out a few Nucs to sell= $180.00
New York area Apple pollination=$40.00
Maine Blueberries pollination $40.00 + spring honey= $160.00
Pennsylvania Pumpkins=$40.00
Florida Brazilian Pepper= $150.00 splits made here are saved to replace losses
California Almonds=$150.00
*as a side note I suspect most of the beekeepers take their wives to Europe while the bees are in almonds there isnt much to do for a month or more.
Total revenue $720.00 + extra splits. I think you can buy hives all day long in the $125.00 range.
My #'s are conservative so you can see a couple good years and you could become very wealthy.

Its not hard to imagine the guys with over 500 hives must be living like Rock stars.
I mean really "How hard can it be?''


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mbeck,
You aren't using your imagination enough. Why are you imagining so low? Or maybe you are being sarcastic?

If you are willing to do Apple Pollination in NY for $40.00, you could probably displace quite a few other beekeepers. $50.00 to $90.00 is the range I have heard of. 

Where did you get all of your other figures?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I see some numbers for revenues but I don't see much in the way of expenses, capital, cost of capital, labor, taxes and fees. I told all my previous wives that it is not what you make, it is what you spend that keeps you above water. I finally found one that agrees that I am right.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

"Most get their help from latin America" Unless you live in Alabama, which has done a stupid thing and ran off all the latinos, regardless of legal status, causing crops to rot in the field. TED


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Alabama did that? I thought it was just the mucky mucks in Colorado.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

BeeManiac said:


> bees and honey and doing local pollinations. Making 50k a year?


I,d say if you want to make 50K a year get a gov job in Obama administration, or keep at least 1000 hives.

LOL


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I tried to give a low estimate for all earnings. I figured a $1.50 per pound for honey.

I also didn't include revenue from propolis,pollen or wax sales.
I'm sure it wouldn't be very difficult to sell a few hundred #'s closer to retail at a honey stand at the home yard. I'm sure with better contracts and a little more honey you could add a couple hundred to my number.

How do my numbers look to you?
Are they too conservative?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

mbeck from your numbers you dont have a clue. ya better keep your day job. lol


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mbeck said:


> How do my numbers look to you?
> Are they too conservative?


I'll go back and look. But, right off the bat, $40.00/col apple pollination in NY is way too low.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mbeck said:


> To make 50K revenue before expenses you need just under 70 hives.
> Of course you will need to have a few more to cover your expenses.
> 
> This is how an outsider does the math.
> ...


Can one consistently make 100 lbs of Brazilian Pepper and Orange Blosssom honey each year? Or is the average much lower? NY Apples and Maine Blueberries are quite low in my opinion. Closer to twice that amount. One doesn't always make a crop of honey in ME. PA pumpkins? I don't know. It could be close to being right.

Here in SC, when bees are in Almonds, beekeepers are working the rest of their hives making nucs and building up colonies. Time off occurs in January, when national mtngs happen.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Did I not see $40 for Maine blueberry pollination? That is way too low... more like $100. Guess Mbeck is just playing, cause that pollination game is a bit more complicated than just showing up with a truck full of hives and saying... "Ok Sir... I'm here to pollinate your crops".


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

If one was to follow Barry's suggestion and work at beekeeping as a part time endeavor, a good table saw complete with a dado blade set would make those hive boxes cheaper. It would also provide another possible source of income. As a one year beekeeper that is expanding, I am shocked at the price of woodware.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Mbeck said:


> *as a side note I suspect most of the beekeepers take their wives to Europe while the bees are in almonds there isnt much to do for a month or more.
> My #'s are conservative so you can see a couple good years and you could become very wealthy.
> 
> Its not hard to imagine the guys with over 500 hives must be living like Rock stars.
> I mean really "How hard can it be?''


Are you out of your mind 500 hives??? You need at least a couple thousand hives to be able to afford an entourage and have you priced a good Swiss Chalet lately? That will add at least another 1,000 hives. 500 hives indeed.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mbeck said:


> *as a side note I suspect most of the beekeepers take their wives to Europe while the bees are in almonds there isnt much to do for a month or more.


That explaines where Jimmy been last month. lol


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I put these #'s in low based on the numbers I've seen on post here. Posted from an outsiders perspective.

I posted this to illustrate human nature. How many of us have picked up something or looked at a service and tried to do the math? 

I'm sure some think my numbers are wrong and a few know they are... Please correct them as needed. If you have experience with the total expense to produce a given revenue please share.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Did my part. Some of your numbers are wrong, but not rediculously so.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Good points.
I think your right my Florida honey crop numbers are off but looks like you can make up some of the cash in Maine. 
So what's a good number per hive for this run?
$650-$800 per hive?
Once I get some professional concenseus I'll throw out some expense numbers.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Even at $10 per hour he could do better on welfare and not incur the cost of travel.
> 
> And so it is with agriculture. The wage is not livable to even the lower middle class in the US.


First off: All work has dignity. What might be a livable wage to one person isn't nearly enough to make ends meet for the next person. I once talked to a Nicaraguan who had worked all summer up here and had saved enough of his pay that he had plans of buying 2 cows when he got back home, he was so excited, it really put it in perspective for me. Being "better off on welfare" (certainly not for any length of time) simply isn't an option for folks with pride. 
You might be surprised the pay a good experienced beekeeper can command especially one capable of managing a crew. As for $10 an hour, I have been over that for several years for inexperienced help but it can be pretty demanding at times.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Mbeck said:


> I'm sure some think my numbers are wrong and a few know they are... Please correct them as needed. If you have experience with the total expense to produce a given revenue please share.


I would think that some of your hypothetical pollinations would overlap... ie... NY Apples and Maine blueberries. The most different crops pollinated in a single year (that I have heard of) is Almonds, NC Blueberries, and Maine blueberries.... no doubt some could do more. This 3 crop pollination grosses about $300/hive... and really precludes a honey crop.... at least so I have heard.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> First off: All work has dignity. What might be a livable wage to one person isn't nearly enough to make ends meet for the next person.


Amen Jim. I like what you wrote. Many people in our Nation have too much a materialistic ideal and just have to have more than money can buy. I appreciate quality things, but don't need them to live a satisfactory life. I also know people that work for commercial beekeepers who have a pretty good standard of living and earn enough to raise a family. So, I don't know what Acebird thinks he knows.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Here is where I got some of my ideas.

http://hackenbergapiaries.org/index.php?page=hackenberg-apiaries-pollination


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Mbeck said:


> Here is where I got some of my ideas.
> 
> http://hackenbergapiaries.org/index.php?page=hackenberg-apiaries-pollination


Very interesting... and certainly amazing, but I see it could be done. Makes me tired thinking about it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hack needs to update his website. He doesn't Winter in FL anymore. He's moved up to GA to get away from pesticides.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Even I can see that it would take a lot of skills to execute that plan.

I bet his crew has bucket loads of dignity!


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Mbeck said:


> I bet his crew has bucket loads of dignity!


:lpf: Yea! and callouses on their rear ends! Wonder if ACE could get a job with him


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nope. Hack doesn't have any boxes smaller than deeps.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

He was here this year I don't know if that was all of his outfit or part.
I heard a very unreliable rumor that he wasn't doing much in the groves anymore due to spraying.
This article is about him while he was here

http://www.tampabay.com/news/enviro...s-why-bees-are-dying-and-colonies-are/1222880


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well he does have enough hives to be most anywhere.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Florida state only has him listed as having 5323 hives, he could have hives anywhere when they inspected.

I say only but please don't think I'm trying to represent myself as anyone who knows anything about anything. I find the commercial side interesting.

On the othe hand I'm only 5-7 splits away from that ballpark!


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Mbeck - they say that the first few splits are the most difficult ones!!


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Funny I was thinking 2500 split to 5000 would be the rough one!!!


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Honestly, I would pity the commercial guy that hired Ace, could you imagine being told by a rookie how to do the job you have been making a living off of? Your doing this wrong, your doing that wrong..............I would out work you but I chose not to..........and so on. I know a couple guys that have had many wives as well...........and I know their personalities. They should be the highest paid Arm Chair Quarterbacks ever, not to mention they could coach any team to the world series or the superbowl and make the best players better..........funny thing is, they are grunt laborers just like me, instead of high dollar coaches.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

:lpf::applause::lpf::applause: I wish we could upvote comments :lpf::applause::lpf::applause:


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## HTC (Mar 17, 2012)

I need to do more research I want to find the late blooming citrus. The last two years my back yard orange was finishing the bloom in mid March. Is not that when the bee keepers are leaving California? Anyway the link to the graphics of travel times had some good graphics, very cute.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

hpm08161947 said:


> Did I not see $40 for Maine blueberry pollination? That is way too low... more like $100.


Jadczak tells me Maine blueberries will be $59 this year, down a lot from previous years. 

I wouldn't place my bees on the Maine blueberry barrens for $59 even if you paid me. Heck, I wouldn't do it for $100.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> MP, Mark is right I am not looking for a job.


Nope, didn't think you were. You were just being your usual Acebird, argumentative self. I was just trying to make a point. You come up with some pretty crazy ideas...like there are no beekeepers hiring full time help that work bees full time. My help and I work every day, as many hours as it takes on those days to get the job done. They're in the field managing the production colonies and I'm in the cell building yard raising queens. Every 4 days we all meet at the mating yard and catch queens. The only days off are rain days when we work in the shop. And even then, there aren't enough hours of daylight in a day to finish evereything. And as far as a livable wage goes, I pay it and always have. I don't ask anyone to do something I don't do, wouldn't do, or haven't done, and wouldn't even consider paying my help less than a livable wage.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> You were just being your usual Acebird, argumentative self.


We do this at work all the time, turn someone's last name into a verb to describe something thatthe person once did and someone else is now doing. These often outlast the people by far. Years after someone has left the company we'll still be using his last name. Has "Acebird" now become an adjective here on the forums?

ie, "You're being such an acebird." or "Don't be an acebird."

No disrespect to AB....well, maybe a little because that's what makes life fun, laughing at ourselves. But every now and then I gotta admit I agree with him.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

The thing about living in the information age is that ideas are encouraged to flow more easily than sweat, and the proportion of us that have experienced long grueling hours of manual labor has diminished greatly with the loss of industrial jobs and, as Ace points out, the mechanization of both factory and agriculture. 
There are not many who have experienced the feeling of sweat running all day, and have to tough it out past the first aches and pains as one's body hardens to physical labor.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> As for $10 an hour, I have been over that for several years for inexperienced help but it can be pretty demanding at times.


Jim, let's not be silly. Ten dollars an hour is an entry level job. No experience, you train and put up with all the mistakes and misgivings. Managing a crew would be bare minimum 25 per hour plus bennies and likely would rise to 75 per hr if he was a right hand man in any other industry.

MP, you haven't a clue how hard I have physically worked to get where I am or how hard I work today. It is unlikely that anyone who has had a professional carrier would want to work at an entry level job or start a new carrier in bee keeping management working for someone else. I don't see that as a lack of dignity I see it as a lack of advancement in the bee keeping industry. If you start as a trainee where are you going to go and what is the best you could hope for? Jim doesn't have to worry about attracting someone who wants to advance as long as his workforce is coming from a depressed country like Guatemala.

I have been in manufacturing for a long time and I can tell you first hand that much of the undesirable jobs are filled by refugees from the wars we got into. The difference is these are primary educated people who want advancement and the European refugees want it much faster than the Asian refugees who proceeded them. So as the supply of refugees dried up the manufacturing plants went off shore or literally bought the goods to sell from China. We will not acquire a new batch of refugees from the arab world because they are too underdeveloped to be used in manufacturing. I suspect they would not make good beekeepers either.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Let's get back to beekeeping and dispense with the discussion of personalities, ok?


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

I think your paragraph pretty much describes the majority of businesses. There's a reason large percentages of businesses in every sector go out of business in their first year and only a fraction of them last for more than 10....because being in business is tough, any business.

Unlike being an employee you don't get up in the AM, "Spend time at work" and get paid for the time you put in. You aren't "Trading" your "Time" for "Money" you are trading the RESULTS of your labor for money and ONLY if someone finds the results of your labor worth buying. 

Been in businesses in manufacturing for coming up on 20 years now. Busted my but for a good 5-6 years doing the 50-80 weeks, no vacations etc etc. Now I'm lucky enough to not have to do that as much...just to likely make less than I would be making working for someone else.

So if you think you're going into a business to "Get rich" think again. In most cases you're getting into business to buy yourself a job, that's "Normal" for most businesses. Actually no, what's "Normal" for most businesses is coming out worse than you went in. "Successful" businesses end up buying themselves a job. 

The "Lucky", the ones that continually bust their buts, make all the right moves, have all the right skills AND end up being at the right place at the right time *Might* make it big.

The biggest "Bonus" about being in business is the sense that your working for yourself and the relatively false sense that you have more freedom 

~Matt


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Jim doesn't have to worry about attracting someone who wants to advance as long as his workforce is coming from a depressed country like Guatemala.


I will laugh off a lot of your silliness Ace but the insinuation that I might take advantage of someone from a more disadvantaged country than ours is not only laughably wrong but pure speculation on your part. I have never yet hired someone from Latin America because I have been fortunate enough to have been able to find the help I need locally, but if I choose to at some point in the future that person would be paid based on their abilities, I could care less where they came from.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

So in other words, if Ace were to apply for a job in your beekeeping business, he might make $10 an hour?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Don't let him get your goat Jim. He knows not.


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## BeeManiac (Feb 26, 2012)

look what i started =)


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Barry said:


> So in other words, if Ace were to apply for a job in your beekeeping business, he might make $10 an hour?


OK we know Ace isn't looking for a job.

What I'd like to see though, is Ace, as an interesting extension to your hobby, would you be willing to go out with a commercial guy for one day? And if so, is there somebody out there can put their hand up to take him? Have to be one of those days that's going to test his mettle.

Be a great experiment, we can then find out what Ace is really made of, who knows, it might surprise. Be good for Aces personal growth also.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ace knows who to ask and where to go to get experience working for someone w/ many more hives than he.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

What would happen if all the commercial beekeepers woke up one morning and said I have had enough? 
Would the bees survive?
Would modern agriculture as we know it keep rolling right along?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If all of the Commercial Beekeepers diusappeared? Or just stopped keeping bees? Sure, bees would survive. Some things about modern agriculture would be effected.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Here in the US the bees might survive but not likely. When was the last time you saw a true feral hive? As far as agriculture it would continue but be ready to pay $90 for an almond and $80 for an apple.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> OK we know Ace isn't looking for a job.
> 
> What I'd like to see though, is Ace, as an interesting extension to your hobby, would you be willing to go out with a commercial guy for one day?


It would be fun to get him out there one cool rainy day splitting 75 doubles!

Prerequisite is Cool and RAINY. Lets see if he is worth the $10.00 an hour. BTW nothing wrong with paying unexperienced uneducated help $10.00 an hour. Thats well above minimum wage in NYS.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Barry said:


> So in other words, if Ace were to apply for a job in your beekeeping business, he might make $10 an hour?


He'd make more than that working here...even as a beginner. A place to live to boot. 

As far as Latinos go...they all want a job with Senor Mike. They get no BS here. A place to live, all utilities paid, free trips to town, help with shopping, a phone to call home when they want, and good pay.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> but the insinuation that I might take advantage of someone from a more disadvantaged country than ours is not only laughably wrong but pure speculation on your part.


I guess my comment didn't come across the way I wanted it too. I am sorry, I apologise. There was no intention on my part that you would take advantage of them. They feel they are living like kings so much so that they send money back home. But you do realize that an American worker is going to want more because they have more to begin with. However it doesn't take long for a foreigner to want the same thing. Like any business you have to plan for turn over because there are not enough positions at the top for everybody.

Kudos to you MP. Employees with green cards and no experience usually do not make more than minimum wage. In agriculture they are more apt to make much less.

So looking at only the US industry how many full time beekeeping positions are available today? Under 100? Under 25? I don't think it will do much in the way of solving unemployment. I am certain there are more than 100 people willing...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nick Noyes said:


> Would the bees survive?
> Would modern agriculture as we know it keep rolling right along?


Bees would most certainly survive. Modern agriculture? I hope not.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Getting back to the original thought of how much investment in terms of money and labor it would take to net 50 grand a year, please don't leave insurance out of the equation. The cost of health insurance is soaring and I would think there would be a need for some type of liability insurance. Based on what I have read on this thread, I am glad that I am a hobbyest beekeeper. God Bless you guys that are willing to be commercial beekeepers because we need the bees, but it looks like a poor business venture.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

That would be cool to take the Acebird challenge. As a beginner to see what it's like.
If the travel expenses were paid, and I still have 3 weeks vacation left for this year.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> What I'd like to see though, is Ace, as an interesting extension to your hobby, would you be willing to go out with a commercial guy for one day? And if so, is there somebody out there can put their hand up to take him?


Mark will probably "kick my butt" (he's big enough to do just that).... but I gotta suggest that he is the man for the job. Can you imagine what ACE would learn from just one day working with Mark. Just yesterday Mark stopped by on his way to collect some bees from the blue berries and we went out and worked on my bees... just simple stuff... supering in preparation for the Gallberry flow, mite counts, making up some nucs, and replacing some missing queens... but it occurred to me that every time I work with Mark... I learn something... all ya gotta do is ask a few questions and you soon realize you are working with a real "Expert". I would be willing to suggest that just one day working with Mark with add some real "Gravitas"... to ACE's commentary. Now I am gonna get my butt kicked!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Actually I have worked with Mark and his friend Jon but not in the field (MP you can ask Mark, I didn't tell him what to do or how to do it). I agree the experience would be invaluable to me as a bystander. I am not up to the challenge to dig into someone else's hives where the bees don't know me. Someday I might and Mark would be first on my list to ask. He is a good guy and doesn't hold a grudge besides being an expert beekeeper.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

Ace, I'm off topic. Do the bees ever act like they know you? Is there something I'm missing?
Mine never act like they know me. Serious question, no cracking or stabs.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Steven Ogborn said:


> Ace, I'm off topic. Do the bees ever act like they know you? Is there something I'm missing?


Actually.. somewhere on beesource someone cited an article that strongly suggested that bees could recognize faces... I took the time to read the article and the accompanying evidence.... I still came away thinking... "You got to be kidding me!"... but who knows. Don't believe mine know me...


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Nick Noyes said:


> What would happen if all the commercial beekeepers woke up one morning and said I have had enough?
> Would the bees survive?
> Would modern agriculture as we know it keep rolling right along?


in other words "Who is John Galt?"


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

hpm08161947 said:


> Don't believe mine know me...


Maybe they're like cats... they recognize you but they just don't care?


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

There's a saying that you make your profit when you buy, not when you sell. 
I jumped back into bees this year with 25 nucs and plan to expand. I make all my own parts including frames. The only thing I need to buy from now on is lumber and queen excluders. That is still some expense, but not nearly what it cost most others. Honey markets are generally fixed in price. Lowering my operating cost by making my own parts and growing my own bees will allow me to make a profit within that fixed price range.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> I have never yet hired someone from Latin America because I have been fortunate enough to have been able to find the help I need locally, .


I used to work as a field operation manager for a large commercial farm 1,600 acres in southern New England. In four years I never had a white American person last past noon. We did have some Russian immigrants and we had quite a few American Latinos make it but never a white American. 

Like others here I have seen some amazing stories of people coming here and doing back breaking work for hours and hours on end to support families "back home" that a lot of Norteamericanos would have abandoned under much less trying circumstances. 

Farming is not like gardening, as I imagine commercial beekeeping isn't like hobby beekeeping. We've been up to close to 40 hives, and for me with a full time job it's really turning the corner to becoming "work". You simply cannot extrapolate the pleasure of a small operation into one that really pays the bills, it's a totally different animal. There are pleasures but they are other pleasures.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

rweakley said:


> in other words "Who is John Galt?"


Ah... Ann Rand has made it to the bee world.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Steven Ogborn said:


> Ace, I'm off topic. Do the bees ever act like they know you? Is there something I'm missing?
> Mine never act like they know me. Serious question, no cracking or stabs.


I believe they know your smell and will be aggressive to one person and leave another alone. I know the exact same reactions happen with dogs. They will be lovie dovie with one person and want to take the arm off another. I am not talking master vs. stranger. I am talking two different strangers. We see it all the time with our dogs.

Do bees posses the same awareness? I think so.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lazy shooter said:


> , but it looks like a poor business venture.


I certainly understand how one could see it that way. A Banker wouldn't make a loan to someone starting out in a Bee Business. But, LS, I would say, it depends on what you want out of life. It ain't so bad. And if you like working for yourself, have a supportive spouse who works w/ you, along side you or at least in tandem, one can be quite successful and comfortable, even if you have to work hard and long hours at times.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Steven Ogborn said:


> That would be cool to take the Acebird challenge. As a beginner to see what it's like.
> If the travel expenses were paid, and I still have 3 weeks vacation left for this year.


Steve, if you are free to go, I'm sure you could find short stints of bee employment across the Nation. You would need youir own transportation. But, if you have the gear, suit, gloves, smoker, hive tool and some experience, there are folks who would put a strong young person, willing to work, to work.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Steven Ogborn said:


> Ace, I'm off topic. Do the bees ever act like they know you? Is there something I'm missing?
> Mine never act like they know me. Serious question, no cracking or stabs.


I never hardly ever see mine often enuf for them to imprint me on their ganglia. Besides, they can't see my face when I wear a veil.

Yeah, Ace is alright and welcome to get his hands in my hives. Jons' are a lot closer though. He's up for whatever help comes his way, just about. Don't be shy.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

hpm08161947 said:


> Ah... Ann Rand has made it to the bee world.


Herb,
That's Ayn, not Ann. 

Or is it Aynn?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Herb,
> That's Ayn, not Ann.


Thanks Mark....  Ayn is right.


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## Kendal (Apr 12, 2011)

Whoever above said you have to save or put your money into woodenware spoke truth, but only part of it. Woodenware is a capital investment in your business. Working capital or operating capital is another. What looks like a profit on a profit and loss statement is not realized if you don't have the operating capital to purchase what you need at the time you need it. Working capital or cashflow is often a bigger constraint than capitalization expense.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Yeah, Ace is alright and welcome to get his hands in my hives. Jons' are a lot closer though. He's up for whatever help comes his way, just about. Don't be shy.


I assumed Jon wouldn't turn me away.

The thing is I got another month I think to finish up the apartment project and things here are getting behinder by the minute. It didn't help that the sign company clear cut the back yard so that puts another project on my plate. I don't know where I would find the time to start a beekeeping business and I am semi retired. How does that happen?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> The thing is I got another month I think to finish up the apartment project and things here are getting behinder by the minute.


I didn't mean tomorrow.


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## Rob Renneker (Aug 7, 2006)

As far as finding full time employment in the bee business, one does not have to look hard to find a job if you have good work ethic and are reliable. As far as separating the grain from the chaff, this entire thread takes the cake.....


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I don't know where I would find the time to start a beekeeping business and I am semi retired. How does that happen?


 Self motivation and enthusiasm for working with bees. If you want it bad enough you will find a way to do it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BMAC said:


> Self motivation and enthusiasm for working with bees.


I would say most people on this forum have that. Giving up on you other obligations are not so easy. Let's have a show of hands, who would rather work with their bees then go to work? Just one example...

The decision to become a full time beekeeper would be a no brainer if you hit the lottery or received a huge inheritance don't you think?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

No I don't think hitting the lottery will help any small time beekeeper become a commercial beekeeper. Its hard work in hot weather while wearing a bee suit. Let's have a show of hands of how many people are willing to go work 12 hours per day in 90 degree weather while wearing beesuit veil and gloves!

It still boils down to self motivation and enthusiam for keeping bees and wanting to be at that level. Let's face it there are alot easier jobs out there. Its easy to write off and discount other obligations. Yet you see the commercial folks make time to be commercial beekeepers. What about their obligations?

If there is some disbelief that working bees is easy let it be known its hard work. If you are not believing me come help me pull 200 deep supers full of honey in about 6 weeks from now. This includes stacking them on the truck after blowing bees out and then stacking the in honey house all by hand.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A show of hands? Y'all do know this is cyber space and not an audotorium,, don't ya?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Mark I do realize and was laughing when I read it and almost fell out of my chair as i was typing it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I raised my hand before I realized I was alone.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

So lets really talk about full time beekeeping here. 

How goes things in SC Mark? I am assuming you are still there.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Until tomorrow morning. Coulda been better. Queens, if cells worked, hadn't started laying last I looked. Which was earlier this week. This early spring hasn't been all that great for me or the orchards I pollinate. Though I did get some bees to NC blueberries, which helps w/ needed income.

How's about you?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Im heading back to south Ga in the morning for another weeks worth of round the clock work. I need to check back all I made up a several weeks back and finish my splits for the season. I am also planning to bring back 100 or so singles due to the early weather here and see if i can atleast get some of the early flow. I am also going to bring back 100 NUCs this time as well. The rest will stay and come back on the semi in May. When I left the area I am in was still in a slight dearth, however its my understanding the briars really started kicking out alot of nectar in my absence and the male Galberry is starting to open now so I will be supering up everything I can while down there. 

It will be a busy week and race to get back in afterwards.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Let's have a show of hands, who would rather work with their bees then go to work?


I would rather go to work then work with my bees. It will be warmer after work and I will not have to get up as early. Of course if I worked the night shift I would rather work with my bees then go to work.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I raised my hand before I realized I was alone.


See it works.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

BMAC we finally starting having a steady flow from the Gallberries and Blackberry about two weeks ago here in North Fl. so South Ga. should be doing pretty good by now too.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Semi loaded in one hour fourtyfive minutes this evening. Netting and strapping to be finished in the morning and then heading home to NY.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

i figured hope my boxes are not plugged right out. oh well it is what it is. i was missing some of the flow a bit. oh well it is what it is. south of roanoke right now running 70. shkuld be there today and cheking my hives tomorrow.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

mark have a safe trip north.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Finished the semi and then got my truck loaded and away at 8AM. Stopping in Pine Grove,PA for the night. Had a flat on the trailer as soon as I hit VA. Fortunately found a tire repar shop close by. They thru a new tire on for me and got me back underway. Left them a few bees.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Just in case ACE is worried... you did have a very nice net on that truck.... don't believe I saw a single bee.... although I could hear quite a few.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It wasn't as tight as it could have been. I didn't have the pieces I usually run down the sides of the deck so I can fold the nets together and close things up better. But I didn't leave too many when I had to stop. Only stopped to fuel up before getting on 95, then for the flat and then for fuel again in Opal,VA. Never stay in one place very long when hauling bees.


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