# kill off your bees/colony



## SERGE (Sep 14, 2010)

Sorry this isn't an answer to your question. I don't know the details of your situation, but personally I think I would rather combine the three into one, and feed them sugar syrup for winter stores, instead of totally getting rid of them.
-Serge


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

I agree with SERGE.

If they don't have stores, feed them. If you combine them and feed them, you might have 1 hive survive the winter.

If you're worried they won't survive the winter, why ask how to kill them?


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

instead of killing them, maybe find another beekeeper around who will give them a chance at a combine overwinter. they could either pay for the united colony or maybe trade you brand new empty frames for the filled ones . I am sure there must be a way to at least give them a chance.

Big Bear


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## WillH (Jun 25, 2010)

owarzecha said:


> I have 3 hives that will not survive the winter


Would you mind if I ask you why you think they will not survive?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I would like to know why three colonies have no stores at all? If you plan on continuing with bees next year why not do as others suggested, combine all three, feed heavily, and hope for the best. If they come through the winter strong, then you can split that hive into two or three colonies in the spring and get back to where you were with no money spent other than feed. Give them a chance ok? John


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

To answer you question:
1) Remove your queens and kill them.
2) 6 days later, remove any queen cells found on frames.
3) Two weeks later, fill a wheelbarrel half full with soapy water and place near the hives.
One box at a time, remove boxes from hive, shake the bees into the soapy water from each frame.
Store each boxs as you go so that bees do not return or rob them.
Then decide on wax moth prevention.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Harry nice answer. I do away with all my bees every year to get the highest output in the bees. Some just don't get it. It's not that you can't feed them, but why would you feed them just for them to eat it up and then die. The bees that are not treated is not worth anything by next honey crop. So you waste all your time and feed for WHAT???? 
800+ hives for 6 months out of the year. Let someone else feed them the other 6 months.:scratch:


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## Eyeshooter (Mar 8, 2008)

The Honey Householder said:


> Harry nice answer. I do away with all my bees every year to get the highest output in the bees. Some just don't get it. It's not that you can't feed them, but why would you feed them just for them to eat it up and then die. The bees that are not treated is not worth anything by next honey crop. So you waste all your time and feed for WHAT????
> 800+ hives for 6 months out of the year. Let someone else feed them the other 6 months.:scratch:


Incredible...count me as one who doesn't get it.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

I know I don't get it. I see bees as living creatures, not as dollar signs.

Big Bear


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

There is lies the difference between a commercial/sideliner and a hobbiest. 
A hobbiest does not care the cost to keep the bees and or any other animal. They are willing to spend what ever it takes to keep them alive and well.
A commerical or sideliner however, is willing to pencil and paper the cost of keeping vs the cost of getting new packages each spring.

I know that for me, if our package prices were anywhere close to what the US pays for packages, I would kill off all my bees in the fall and start fresh in the spring. However, it is more cost efficient to winter bees and take our losses than kill all and buy new....just because of package prices.

Thanks Harry for the how to....always wondered


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## brushmouth (Jan 17, 2010)

owarzecha said:


> I have 3 hives that will not survive the winter and I would like to kill them off and use the equipment next years as they are disease free just no honey stores and week. what is the best way to do this? I was thinking waiting untill november when they have no brood and then brushing them out, however I have been told that is harder done than said as they crawl into frames and imppossible? what do people do when they want to do this? I would like to keep this chemical free??? I heard dry ice on top of the brood box work?
> 
> 
> thank You


We have had so much rain this year that it's disrupted the nectar flow.
Its not the fault of your bees, don't kill them for trying.

If the mite levels are low they have a chance and can be fed.
Are there enough bees to form a nuc? or more bees but little honey?

Someone on the board or local will "dispose of " your bees for you.
I am about 80 miles away, anyone on the board with stores and extra equipment that's closer ?


BM


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

If they have no stores and are weak, the easiest way to kill them is to leave them alone. They will starve and die on their own. Hopefully the bees live long enough to keep the wax moths from getting in.

You can remove dead bees from frames with an air hose, or just allow next years bees to clean out all the dead bees stuck in frames.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

If I figured my time, treatments, feed, gas, etc. it might be a wash as to whether or not it makes economic sense to maintain them versus starting over with new bees every spring. Of course I am a hobbiest so I enjoy the challenge of trying to get them through the winter and then watching them swarm next spring


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## Duboisi (Oct 7, 2009)

@The Honey Householder
I am a newbee, so that may be why I don't get this. If you feed each hive 40 pounds of sugar at $.50 with a hive-top feeder, and walk away, that's $20/hive. If only half survive, you're out $40 per hive.
If only one in five survive, you pay the same as if they were packages, and you'we got a stock that have a greater chance at surviving next year. -Thus reducing your wintering costs.
The deadouts could then be backfilled by packages.

This is assuming packages costs $100 per hive (Although - probably less since you buy large quantities.) 

So - where am I wrong?

BTW: If you sell them every fall at a cheap price as a hedge(saving $40 and deadouts) and then restock in spring - I could understand that.

@HarryVanderpool - Why go trough all the effort and monitoring of making them queenless before killing them? Would it not be easier to just remove all available honey-frames and let them be? Or cage one queen and put all brood with her until all brood is hatched?


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

HH--I always thought you had some secret method behind your huge per hive averages. (Besides the 'mature' combs, which I also didn't get)

Is the reason your totals are so much higher than others simply because you're taking the extra 80-100 lbs of stores from the bees, when others are leaving them?


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

HH makes a lot of sense to me. If I lived up north I'd do the same thing. No labor and material costs for treating and feeding. Start out each spring with fresh bees and fresh queens, ready to explode. You get all the honey, don't have to worry about them having enough for winter. No wrapping, no winter trips to the beeyard to dump dry sugar on the ones that ate all your honey. No varroa when they come out in the spring. Zero winter losses! Smart man!


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Tara
Taking all the honey is part of it. There's many things that make my operation very profitable. Take the 80-100 lbs times that by 800 hives and wholesale it for $1.85-$2.00 a lb. Now just think if you retail that same honey for $4.80-6.50 a lb. Yes I make my package supplier very happly every year.If I can buy my packages in the spring for $50 a package and sell my bees in the in the fall for $16 ( instead of leaving them starve). I would have to say that is good business. 
Come on think about it. I couldn't make that kind of money senting my bees to CA in the spring. Honey for $150K+$13K to sell the bees or senting my bees to CA for $125K-all the expense $67K. 30+ years in the business tells me that's not good business.


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

HH-Yeah, your model makes great economic sense, and I have nothing against taking all the honey if you're selling the bees...(just letting them die makes me twitch) but for $16 a package, how do I get on your list?? 

Do you have your full method, including what's up with the 50 year old combs, laid out somewhere, or do I have to search your 400+ posts to piece it together?

Thanks!


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

$16 a package for fall bees I wish. Thats for all the bees in the hive most at 6-8 pounds of bees each. The $16 each price is to by all 800 hives.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Duboisi said:


> HarryVanderpool - Why go trough all the effort and monitoring of making them queenless before killing them? Would it not be easier to just remove all available honey-frames and let them be? Or cage one queen and put all brood with her until all brood is hatched?


You have the right Idea.
There are fifty million ways to cook a pot of stew and I'm sure most turn out just fine.

Here is a VERY GOOD article written by a friend of mine that has had an interest in depopulation annually:

http://www.orsba.org/htdocs/download/The Ways of Winter.htm


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Our nucs are generally 4 frame here and the going rate is $150 per. That and few people want to sell them until AFTER Blueberry blossoms - so you often can't even get them until June.

Makes for a lean year if you're starting over every year...

I'd like to winter my bees. I respect the idea of looking at all the angles - I like to do that - I can see how it makes sense for some people in some places, but it's not for me. I don't want to kill my bees. 

Adam


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

On the subject of killing bees... The U of MN's "Beekeeping in Northern Climates" course advocates killing half your bees every year. The method in short is as follows. Starting with nothing.
First year with packages and empty foundation build each hive to three deeps and overwinter.
Second Year make a split: Take one box and add a new queen. Build this hive to three deeps and overwinter it.
The parent colony is left in two deeps, boxes are rotated every 10 days or so and honey supers added above an excluder. In the fall harvest all honey above the excluder. In the winter shake all the bees into the snow, and clean up the equipment for next year.
Year three split again and so on...
The course said this method, called "The Horizontal Two-Queen System" (developed by Basil Furgala) offers the following advantages:
"A young queen is maintained in each colony.
Requeening is done at a favorable time.
Swarming problems are negligible.
Net productivity is increased.
Wintering success is significantly increased.
Repair, recycling, and replacement of combs and equipment is possible."

I am not advocating this method, just explaining it. There are things I like about it and things I don't. On the plus side if you have a colony in three deeps and the top box is chock full of honey the bees are unlikely to starve. I overwintered 4 colonies last year. Three were in three deeps as per the book, and one was in two deeps and a medium. All survived.
My experience has not been that "swarming problems are negligible" whether it would have been different if I had stocks of drawn comb? I don't know.
In this system you are completely at the mercy of non-local queens. I am going to kill a couple of parent colonies this winter because they have no stores and have no other redeeming qualities. 
I plan to overwinter 4 colonies in three deeps, 1 in two deeps and a medium, 2 colonies in two deeps, and 2 five frame nucs in a divided box two stories high. 
The U. of MN's method calls for wrapping the boxes in black covers, I didn't do this last year and won't do it this year. My hives are in a sheltered location and the temperature swings that wrapping in black must cause don't make sense to me.
I like the "Honey Run Apiaries" all season inner cover with the notched top entrance and have that on all my hives. I have spent the last two winters worrying if the bees will survive, and they have. This winter I'll be worrying again, but if I wasn't worrying about the bees I'd be worrying about something else. 
My point in posting this was to show another reason why someone would advocate killing a hive.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

HH you math doesn't add up. Your average of 100 lbs a hive times 800 (if all 800 of your packages actually produce) times the max of $2 lb gives you 160K. Minus the 40K on just packages alone. I have no idea what your other expenses are but they would be between 15K and 30K if you are running a smooth operation, so take the low end at 15K in expenses lives you with 105K. Now if you took those bees to Calf. getting 120 per minus expenses of shipping and broker fees you can figure about 105 per hive. That's 84K. That plus when they get back from Calf. you can split them and sell the splits for $50-$90 depending on your location. So that's 40k on the low end. So if you can make 125K on honey ( no deduction on for buying packages in the spring) another 84K for almonds and another 40K on splits you have the potential of making 249K for the year. That times 30 years gives you a loss of seven million four hundred and seventy thousand dollars or there about. :doh:


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Alpha6,
Wow, You missed it. The 80-100 lbs was the extra that most leave to winter. My expenses would come out of normal operation, extra honey would be extra. The numbers are based on this years price, only wish those prices was like that for the placed 30 years. The price of honey 5 years ago was $.89, and $.38 16 years ago. Package price today $50 and package price 16 years ago was $14.


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## owarzecha (May 12, 2010)

I am a hobbyist, I didn't post this to start a big war, and I am not being inhumane for wanting to kill of my bees, All three of these colonies are weak, recieved them as late nukes, queens have bad laying patterns and no honey stores at all, were half drones when I recieved the nuc... Yes I could combine all three into one and feed over the winter, unfortunatly my apiary is 35 minutes from my house in the cities as I cant have bees in town, when I look at the cost involved which yes is less than 2 new packages, but for a gamble, on a colony that has NO qualities I want anyway (they are russians with MN queens) (I have had good luck with MN Hygenic and want to go that route). And the fact that there is no guarentee I am not just wasting my time with these.... I am sorry but they gotta go. I want the equipment ready for 3 new packages first thing next spring.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

well, this is why I mentioned that maybe letting another beekeeper have a shot at combining them would solve your issue of having empty hives ready and still give the bees a chance to survive.

I disagree completely with the notion that just because one beekeeper doesn't want the bees they have, be it for commercial purposes or otherwise, that the bees must be killed.

There are plenty of beekeepers out there who might be glad to give the chance to let the bees work it out on their own.

same goes for comm beeks, just think instead of killing those bees at the end of the season, maybe find someone who will take them off your hands and re-sell them or place them to give them a shot at living.

the disrespect for life sometimes amazes me.

Big Bear


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

owarzecha,

Don't worry about a war. Hang around here a while and see how heated some simple issues can get...doesn't take much to get some folks knickers in a twist. If you can come away with something at all, it's worthwhile. Remember, they're just bugs....according to my wife!

Since your a hobbyist and just for giggles though, ever thought about combining the whole lot (let them figure out what queen the want) and putting them in an observation hive in your house for the winter. Yeah, I know you might be working outside the "Rules", but it's a dumb rule anyway, and I've always felt it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission in a case like this.

For the cost of another hive and a few frames, you can learn and be entertained by watching the colony dynamics when most of us can only imagine what our bees are up to. There are plenty of posts on this and other forums on the logistics of setting up an OH, but I think it would be well worth it. If they all perish...oh well. If they make it, you may have one less nuc or package to spend money on in the spring. (Plus, look at the hero you'd become in many eyes!)

The one thing that keeps getting driven home is I'm usually the reason for colony failures. There are so many variable we can screw up ourselves, it's amazing these bees do as well as they do.

Just my 2 cents,
Steve


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## pumpkinpiper (Mar 3, 2004)

Up here in our area of northern MN, most people I know kill off their bees instead of overwintering. I've done the same in past and will do again this year. easieat method I've used is to take a shop vac to them, then when all are in the bag, spray in alittle was/hornet spray to finish off any left moving. Quick,easy, no winter concerns. PP


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

The Honey Householder said:


> Harry nice answer. I do away with all my bees every year to get the highest output in the bees. Some just don't get it. It's not that you can't feed them, but why would you feed them just for them to eat it up and then die. The bees that are not treated is not worth anything by next honey crop. So you waste all your time and feed for WHAT????
> 800+ hives for 6 months out of the year. Let someone else feed them the other 6 months.:scratch:


The shameful part of beekeepers comunity.:no:


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

honeyshack said:


> There is lies the difference between a commercial/sideliner and a hobbiest.


The difference is between a beekeeper and a bee box handler.
I would not be suppressed if they declare the bee losses due to CCD for tax purposes. We have more and more bee boxes handlers and less beekeepers.


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

fish_stix said:


> HH makes a lot of sense to me. If I lived up north I'd do the same thing. No labor and material costs for treating and feeding. Start out each spring with fresh bees and fresh queens, ready to explode. You get all the honey, don't have to worry about them having enough for winter. No wrapping, no winter trips to the beeyard to dump dry sugar on the ones that ate all your honey. No varroa when they come out in the spring. Zero winter losses! Smart man!


Yes, but that is not beekeeping but beemilking and it is a black cloud over the real beekeepers reputation. :ws


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

The Honey Householder said:


> Tara
> Come on think about it. I couldn't make that kind of money senting my bees to CA in the spring. Honey for $150K+$13K to sell the bees or senting my bees to CA for $125K-all the expense $67K. 30+ years in the business tells me that's not good business.


That is dishonest imoral business.
If your honey customers knew about it they would not buy your honey.
Dear you to be honest with your customers.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

AndreiRN said:


> That is dishonest imoral business.
> If your honey customers knew about it they would not buy your honey.
> Dear you to be honest with your customers.


Are you kidding most of my customers are doing the same now, because they want to sell honey too. Most hobbist don't know what bees can really do when put to the test.


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

Post on your honey label "I kill the bees that made this honey" if you are so honest.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

A bit too much sanctimonious judgement going on here by some who seem to feel they possess the secret knowledge of what it takes to be a beekeeper. Perhaps your pontificating would be better appreciated in the Tailgater section.

Just sayin..

Wayne


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...i've got no "judgement" here. from a moral perspective, they are bugs, and have every much the right to life as do varroa mites or SHB.

as a practical matter, there is some subset of "honey consumers" that don't want honey from bees that are killed off every year.

deknow


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## NorthernIllinoisPlumber (Aug 17, 2010)

Just do it in a humane way.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Sorry I just sell my bees(do away with bees each year). And I sell tons of honey!!!!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

more important than you selling tons of honey (at least from my perspective), is the fact that such practices (and admissions/bragging about them) helps _me_ sell tons of honey 

deknow (i'll have to post a link to this thread from our websites)


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I have been reading but not posting.
But here goes. I am a very humane person, but common sense has to trump humanity. We beekeepers ( I won't call them hobbiest) are no differient from any farmer. You have to keep prospectives in order. We sell products.
We showed cattle for several years. You can become attached to animals, even bees. they do not love you back, they love you thru their stomach. I'm not saying that some dogs and maybe others do not have some attachment to some humans, because I think they do. But bees is an entirely differient story. They do not have any attachment to us humans. NONE,NADA,0. They are merely a tool to make money, and pollinate. For those of us who overwinter our bees so be it. It is our way. That doesn't make it the most profitable way to keep bees. 
So, leave those that choose not to overwinter their bees alone. They are just using their tools as they choose to. I really think they are more profitable than we are.


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

The Honey Householder said:


> Harry nice answer. I do away with all my bees every year to get the highest output in the bees. Some just don't get it. It's not that you can't feed them, but why would you feed them just for them to eat it up and then die. The bees that are not treated is not worth anything by next honey crop. So you waste all your time and feed for WHAT????
> 800+ hives for 6 months out of the year. Let someone else feed them the other 6 months.:scratch:


Probably should have said you sold off your bees at the end of the year. Would have reduced the negative comments IMHO.


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## queenking (Oct 24, 2007)

with out bees we will all die


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

queenking said:


> with out bees we will all die


I don't believe that the intent of the origional poster was to exterminate apis mellifera into extinction.

Wayne


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Um guys... Don't know if you caught it, but HH SAID he sells his bees in the fall. Yeah, he takes the honey, but then he sells them. Nothing wrong with selling bees, no matter what time of year it is.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

queenking said:


> with out bees we will all die


Why would we all die without bees?

Tom


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

'cause there would be thousands of beekeepers with nothing to do. They'd curl up and die.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Barry said:


> 'cause there would be thousands of beekeepers with nothing to do. They'd curl up and die.


I'll make note to make sure I don"t get rid of my dog!

Tom


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

fascinating and educational thread, thanks all!


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## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

Queenking, I really hate to break it to you but neither wheat or corn is pollenated. I am fairly sure I can continue to live without honeybees. Even if I really am fascenated by my own


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

charmd2,

I believe it was Albert Einstein who stated that within 4 years mankind would disappear without the honey bee, are you smarter than he? John


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## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/einstein/bees.asp. ok I am citing my source that einstein never said that. Main stream media propaganda. So show me proof he did.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

charmd2 said:


> Queenking, I really hate to break it to you but neither wheat or corn is pollenated. I am fairly sure I can continue to live without honeybees. Even if I really am fascenated by my own


You go ahead and believe what you want. Me personally I believe we would survive without the honeybee, but I don't want to find out what it would be like. 
A statement like corn and wheat isn't pollinated is just as wrong as the belief that Einstien said we wouldn't last but 4 years without the honeybee. Corn and Wheat is open pollinated as is some of our most noxious weeds. There are lots of other insects that pollinate the many plants that we either eat from of enjoy the beauty of. But you can believe that we wouldn't sadly miss the honeybee. You have a right to be wrong!!!

BESIDES, the person that came up with that exagerated saying,was, in my opinion, in this area, as smart as Einstien.:doh:


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

According to what I have researched, Einstein made that statement to a close friend one night in a bar, so that's good enough for me, how about you? If you still are an unbeliever in what he said, then you can attribute the same statement to me because it is true. John


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

I will gladly take care of your bees for the winter.

Just cage the queens and sweep all bees into screened cages and ship them to me in Florida., No winter stores necessary in Orlando. 

In fact the fall flow is just starting now. I can get them built up on the fall flow if you send them this week.

Troy


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

The killing them off part is confusing to me. Just move them to FLA for the winter. Bring them back in the spring. Is that not cheaper then buying new each year? Now you might loose the tax deduction on killing them. But, I would make them snowbirds or sunbirds what ever they call them. You could get another flow or two out of them during the winter in FLA. 

_____________________________
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

t:

Oldtimer...not to get off topic, but have you described anywhere your overwinter methods??? 1/1000 seems like pretty good odds to me!

If you have, can you throw me a link? If not, would you mind starting a thread?

Thanks!!!


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

Oldtimer said:


> 1. This won't go down well with some, but IMO the justification to kill bees due to the cost of medication, and poor survivability anyway, is really about poor beekeeping.
> 2. And my theory on CCD? it should be called PBD. (poor beekeeping disease), because i think that's the REAL cause. Over medication, poor nutrition, and poor manipulation / management generally.


1. In reality lack of beekeeping if you kill them.
2. You hit the nail on the head with this one but you missed the lack of genetic material management with queen breeding that is major contribution to CCD.


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## Duboisi (Oct 7, 2009)

jmgi said:


> charmd2,
> 
> I believe it was Albert Einstein who stated that within 4 years mankind would disappear without the honey bee, are you smarter than he? John


And homeopatic medicine works.:doh:


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

Duboisi said:


> And homeopatic medicine works.:doh:


I can vouch for that.
It works great.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_HH you math doesn't add up. Your average of 100 lbs a hive times 800 (if all 800 of your packages actually produce) times the max of $2 lb gives you 160K. Minus the 40K on just packages alone. I have no idea what your other expenses are but they would be between 15K and 30K if you are running a smooth operation, so take the low end at 15K in expenses lives you with 105K. Now if you took those bees to Calf. getting 120 per minus expenses of shipping and broker fees you can figure about 105 per hive. That's 84K. That plus when they get back from Calf. you can split them and sell the splits for $50-$90 depending on your location. So that's 40k on the low end. So if you can make 125K on honey ( no deduction on for buying packages in the spring) another 84K for almonds and another 40K on splits you have the potential of making 249K for the year. That times 30 years gives you a loss of seven million four hundred and seventy thousand dollars or there about. _

Alpha, your math doesn't add up either. Broker fee is what, 20%? 120 a hive minus 24 is $96. I don't know where you come up with the idea that someone will haul your hives and pay you $9 a hive to boot. Here in Ohio, You'd be looking at $30K to haul your bees south to feed them out and overwinter, haul to California, and then back home. That leaves you with $76,800 but you have to keep in mind you will need about 3 tankers of feed to get the hives heavy enough. There goes another $35K, leaving you about $42K. But, since you are keeping the bees alive, don't forget fumagillan and mite treatments, and the labor to apply those. That's another $5K+, leaving you with $37K. Then, don't forget that you will need a few trips down south to check on your bees while they are being fed and overwintered. Call it another $5K. You're down to $32K. If you needed to requeen, that's another $12K, leaving you with $20K.

Now if something happens to your combs, (stolen, damaged, etc) your honey production just got shut down. How many years will it take you to get back up on your feet? How many $20K almond checks will it take to cover one lost year of honey production?

Is the risk worth the reward? (If you get $150 a hive, you might get another $20K.)


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

there are many beekeepers out there that are doing what HH is doing. And all of them have nicer trucks and honey houses then I have so they must be doing something correct.

If they have all this drawn comb all the work for the next package that goes into it goes to honey production and making more bees not wax. 

$50 a package x 800 is $40,000
four gallon feedings of hfcs at .18lb is 8.28 x 800 =$6624
2lbs of pollen patties at $1.10 lb x 800 = $1760

say another 2,000 for fuel

total cost around $50,000+
total honey pulled because you leave nothing behind 128,000lbs x$2 = $256,000
100lbs in the supers and another 60lbs in the brood boxes.
This works if all of your other equipment is paid for.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

The 60 pounds in the broodnest was the overwintering honey raines was talking about, and the 100 pounds in the supers is the excess. If you run a single deep and have a good queen, the bees will keep the honey pushed up into the supers. The brood box will be full of brood and pollen with just a little honey at the top and sides of frames. (not enough honey to be worth your time extracting, most likely.)

_You can get a package with queen to start a hive for $50.00? _

If you buy them directly from the package supplier in large quantities, you can probably get a 2 pound package for less than $50.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

There is a large factor in this that hasn't been mentioned in this context. If these commercial beeks that are killing off their bees didn't do so, how many would still be in business. I believe we would lose a very (already been discussed) service of pollinating lots of our crops. Becuse they would go out of business.


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

There is a beekeeper in Darlington wi that lost 1200 hives this past winter. He had a 90% loss. He purchased packages from ohb and nucs out of MS. He still ended up netting about $60,000 in profit. All I am saying is it can and is done profitably. IF you have the equipment in place use it.
The debate on if they are beekeepers or beehavers is still in question.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Call them beekeepers or beehavers, whatever you want. The name of the game in business is #1: stay in business, #2: make a profit so you can continue to do #1. HH's business model seems to get the job done very well. If I could get package bees to start the year in January here in FL I'd be doing the same thing. Bees are not endangered! They are not in short supply! They're insects which some of us use to make a living. Get over it!


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

fish_stix said:


> Call them beekeepers or beehavers, whatever you want. The name of the game in business is #1: stay in business, #2: make a profit so you can continue to do #1. HH's business model seems to get the job done very well. If I could get package bees to start the year in January here in FL I'd be doing the same thing. Bees are not endangered! They are not in short supply! They're insects which some of us use to make a living. Get over it!


So drug dealing.
$$$$ is not everything.
Beekeepers LOVE their bees.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

fish_stix said:


> Call them beekeepers or beehavers, whatever you want. The name of the game in business is #1: stay in business, #2: make a profit so you can continue to do #1. HH's business model seems to get the job done very well. If I could get package bees to start the year in January here in FL I'd be doing the same thing. Bees are not endangered! They are not in short supply! They're insects which some of us use to make a living. Get over it!


Not endangered? Seems to be quite a discussion about that, with the pests, diseases, CCD, etc.

Not in short supply? Did everyone get all the packages, and queens they wanted and/or needed this year? 

"They're insects which some of us use..." If some folks find it cost effective to dispose of their bees to keep going in business, I'm not going to tell them they can't do that. I do have a problem with a mind set that devalues life to "it's just an insect" or "it's just a cow" or "it's just a dog..." If we objectify a life-form as something to be simply used up and cast aside, seems like it says more about our values than anything else. fwiw. :lookout:

Now I'm not some illogical person who thinks all life must be kept going no matter what. I agree with Robert Heinlein writing as Lazarus Long when he said "When the need arises, and it does, you must be able to shoot your own dog. Don't farm it out, that doesn't make it nicer, it makes it worse." In my 62 years I've had to put down many dogs, and a few cats, and it is never easy. I simply get concerned when people value "nicer pickups" or "nicer homes" over life, even insects we use to make a living or augment our income.

Perhaps if city kids understood exactly where their hamburger comes from...and no, it isn't the supermarket. ah, I'm starting to ramble, time to close this. :doh:
Regards,
Steven


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

valleyman said:


> There is a large factor in this that hasn't been mentioned in this context. If these commercial beeks that are killing off their bees didn't do so, how many would still be in business. I believe we would lose a very (already been discussed) service of pollinating lots of our crops. Becuse they would go out of business.


Nobody will miss them.
Real beekeepers will fill the void.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

If I didn't enjoy producing my honey (drugs), I wouldn't do the job. Call me what you want. As a honey (drug) dealer I supplies the USA (my country) with 50-81 ton of product a year. The USA only produces 4% of the worlds market and I'm glad to be one of those USA producers. If it wasn't for beekeeper (honey producer) like me what would the package bee producer do for a living????:scratch:


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## Ron Mann (Jul 17, 2009)

I can understand fish stix's point of view.

Beef cattle and hogs are the same way.

They are X-amount pounds of meat which the consumer buys and who pays the end cost of production.

Hobby bee keeping and commercial honey production are apples and oranges from my short time in it.

Just like the hobby farmer who has a few acres, raises a beef , a couple of hogs, and an acre of garden.

You can't compare his operation to a feed lot or a farrow to finish operation.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Last time I checked, the bees produce the honey, not the beekeeper.

beekeepers harvest honey, not produce it. there is a difference, especially when trying to make the comparison to cattle and hogs. in the case of the cattle, etc, they ARE the product. In honey bees, the bees are not the product, they make the product.

to me, you are throwing away your money, if that's what you are into 'producing' honey as a business. If you pay for bees in the spring, ad kill them in the fall you could make more of your precious money by selling the bees to the hobby market instead and actually make a little back off of the original investment in bees and give the bees a chance to survive as well.

even if you only charged $1/colony and exchanged empty frames (or frames with foundation if you used foundation and if you are honest enough to admit when you didn't) if you have say 500 colonies, you will still get $500 back plus empty equipment ready for the spring instead of nothing at all.

and, once again, the bees stand a chance of surviving instead of guaranteed death.

I know of people who would love the chance to overwinter bees and let them live or die on their own, especially at a low cost like a few dollars per colony.

The honey harvester (not really a "beekeeper" in my opinion because as the name says, they 'keep' bees, not kill them) isn't getting anything for killing the bees, so selling them at 1 or 2 dollars a colony is an improvement, especially for bees that have such low chances of survival as the honey harvester suggests.

Sure, the bees might die out. but why not let them decide the how and when for themselves?

just a thought

Big Bear


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Bigbear, 
I do sell my fall bees. Just finished shaking hives yesterday for $16.25 a hive. WOW now that is working for your money. And you are right about the bees making the honey. I just supply the house they live in 6 months out of the year and only take rent 3 times in that time. I ever pack there food in there pantry in the spring. I set them up to be able to product the max. amount of honey. Why would I set them up to fail. Then if they make it though the season I shake them into a new home and the last I hear they was hearding to warmer weather.


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## bigeddie (Feb 19, 2008)

The Honey Householder said:


> If I didn't enjoy producing my honey (drugs), I wouldn't do the job. Call me what you want. As a honey (drug) dealer I supplies the USA (my country) with 50-81 ton of product a year. The USA only produces 4% of the worlds market and I'm glad to be one of those USA producers. If it wasn't for beekeeper (honey producer) like me what would the package bee producer do for a living????:scratch:





Just keep doing what you do the way you do it. I think there are alot of sour grapes out there and a lot of wanabes. Jealousy is obvious when you have people doing your math for you and telling you yours don't add up. Saying your not a beekeeper just because you don't over winter bees is nuts in my book.
I don't know you but I would bet that you forgot more about beekeeping than most of your naysayers will ever know. Thats why your successful and you don't need to defend your way of beekeeping to anyone.

Good luck!


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

”Show me your Bee-yard” is the theme for the 2011 Bee Culture Calendar. The deadline for entries is today! 10/1/10.

Some quotes from instructions:

_"Fences for bear or cattle are good to show, hive stands, too...Do you do something nobody else does, do it in some way nobody else does,...."?  And don't forget beekeepers working in a beeyard,..hives broken down, installing hundreds of packages, or harvesting, or picking up after a bear, or storm damage,...?"_

I don't think you're going [*ever*] to see an idyllic,.romantic,..eye-pleasing photo in the calendar for the months of Oct.,Nov., or December of a beekeeper in their bee-yard, robbing the hives of honey and dumping all the bees in a wheelbarrow of soapy water,....anytime soon. Just thoughts, no indictment.


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

The Honey Householder said:


> 1. If I didn't enjoy producing my honey.
> 2. If it wasn't for beekeeper (honey producer) like me what would the package bee producer do for a living????:scratch:


1. Nobody would pay for YOUR honey and if you honestly lable the honey you still from your bees not too many customers will show. It is the most shamefull part of beekeeping I have heard of.
2. If I hear that anybody that purchased a nuc from me kills them at the end of the season he will NEVER come close to my bees. If money is everything for you what is the price for .... your daughter?
It is the fault of real beekeeper that we nurse and feed bad apples.


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

AndreiRN--you should probably read the rest of the thread before you keep posting.


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## Sweet to the Soul (Sep 1, 2010)

Tara said:


> AndreiRN--you should probably read the rest of the thread before you keep posting.


I agree, householder sending his bees back south is probably preserving more bees than I do trying to overwinter. I lost 50% last winter.

Regards
Kevin


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

Tara said:


> AndreiRN--you should probably read the rest of the thread before you keep posting.


I have and I am argueing a practice not an individual.


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

Sweet to the Soul said:


> I agree, householder sending his bees back south is probably preserving more bees than I do trying to overwinter. I lost 50% last winter.
> 
> Regards
> Kevin


Have you found the cause?
Natural death is NATURAL.


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

>>AndreiRN--you should probably read the rest of the thread before you keep posting. 

>>I have and I am argueing a practice not an individual. 

My apologies--Directly quoting and responding to HH's comments, using "you" in your replies, made me think you were addressing him.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I don't know if killing off the bees at year's end will ever be part of my business plan, but I do know that what turns my stomach is someone who dares to "instruct" others on what a "real beekeeper" is. 

Wayne


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## Duboisi (Oct 7, 2009)

Tara said:


> >>AndreiRN--you should probably read the rest of the thread before you keep posting.
> 
> >>I have and I am argueing a practice not an individual.
> 
> My apologies--Directly quoting and responding to HH's comments, using "you" in your replies, made me think you were addressing him.


No reason to apologize, the wording he used and the quotes clearly indicated that he was replying to and talking to an individual. -Even I as a foreigner can see that.

It was either wrong wording, or a hasty retreat.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

AndreiRN said:


> 1. Nobody would pay for YOUR honey and if you honestly lable the honey you still from your bees not too many customers will show. It is the most shamefull part of beekeeping I have heard of.
> 2. If I hear that anybody that purchased a nuc from me kills them at the end of the season he will NEVER come close to my bees. If money is everything for you what is the price for .... your daughter?
> It is the fault of real beekeeper that we nurse and feed bad apples.


 Why don't you tell them how they must manage the nucs before you sell it to them? I guess that would put a big dent in sale$. 
You have any daughters Andrei?


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi Honey Householder, 
Just a curiosity question. Do you keep any of you're strongest colonies through the winter, treatment free?

Just to see how they do, for you're own entertainment, & or experiment.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> Saying your not a beekeeper just because you don't over winter bees is nuts in my book.


not overwintering bees and outright killing bees is two different things. as hh said, selling his fall bees makes him some money back and gives the bees a chance. I find that respectable myself.

wayne, you can't have it both ways. the name says it all. either you keep bees or you don't. killing bees is not keeping them. how you could logically try to argue that killing is keeping is a twist I would dread to follow.

I started off working with a honey producer in my bee life. I know what goes into working 400 plus hives through the year to make it happen. I did it for the first 3 years. this 4th year has been conservation oriented.

The old boy I learned the honey production side would have been sick to his stomach to think of outright killing bees because of money. He took great pride in being a bee"keeper" and successfully keeping bees alive all year long.

I guess I picked that up from him. I'm glad I did.

Big Bear


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

KQ6AR,
Great question.
Once in a while we miss shake a hive here and there, and they make it though winter. The results of those hives is one of the biggest reason I do keep them. Most will only produce 15% compared to my new packages, and have another 8 gal. of feed then I would for new packages feed. I found that I would spend more time trying to get my wintering hive up to spend then I would have for my packages. Plus I set all my hives up in the winter time for the new packages went everything is frozen. It takes a lot of the rush work out of the busy season.


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

No combs in a package, so no brood. Breaks the mite cycle.

Theoretically, when the first brood is laid whenever they're eventually hived, the female mites are all so desperate to lay that they 'overlay', and put so many mite offspring in every larva that the larva die and kill the mites with it.

Or so I've read. =)


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Close, but not exactly. MOST of the mites die off, leaving the colony with workable levels. However, remaining mites or reinfestation will eventually build up again. 

A package is like an involuntary swarm. Bees that swarm a lot tend to have less mite problems. (Again, this is what I've read.)

And I don't think the bees have to be 'overinfested' with varroa. Its just that after a long period of broodlessness, the mites want to lay, so they tend to all jump on the FIRST batch of larva that appear. Its a brood pheremone trigger thing.

Also, if you have hygenic bees, being broodless helps because all the varroa in the colony is exposed and can be hygenically removed (or sugar dusted). This also lowers levels. 

So I've read. =)

Hasn't anyone else heard of these practices? I thought it was pretty common--hence splitting down to nucs in the fall for overwintering, opposed to keeping a large hive.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Oldtimer said:


> These shaken bees you sell, wouldn't they be infested with varroa?


The mite count has been lower in the past two year, but yes you are right they do have mite. I sell them with the bees for no extra charge.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

2. If I hear that anybody that purchased a nuc from me kills them at the end of the season he will NEVER come close to my bees. If money is everything for you what is the price for .... your daughter?
[/QUOTE]

I have a daughter and a wife, both are BSN's, and I think they understand the differience between a human life and a hive of bees. Your comparison sickens me much more than some commercial beek trying to make an honest dollar. 
No one takes better care of their bees than I, with the knowledge that I Have. But I understand that they are just insects, stinging insects. You are off base, in my opinion.


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> And Tara, thanks for the info. I do know a little bit about packages though, I've sold thousands of them.
> 
> I also know a little bit about the varroa lifecycle. You DO need to read a different book.
> 
> Trust me!


Ah... alrighty then.

Any particular books on varroa you'd recommend?


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

ok, I am going to let this thread go. a friend of mine has told me I've "crossed the line" and I'll take his advice on that.

everyone has things they believe are "right" and "wrong" not everyone will agree on those things. I don't think it's a bad thing for people to hash those things out in forums because whether we agree or not, it enables us to learn, possibly, a lot about what others think. if the discussion stays rational enough, we can maybe even learn why people think the way they do.

enjoy the bees.

Big Bear


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

bigbearomaha said:


> ok, I am going to let this thread go.... everyone has things they believe are "right" and "wrong" not everyone will agree on those things....
> enjoy the bees.
> 
> Big Bear


Don't feel bad.
What amazes me is that the OP asked a simple question; the best method to depopulate hives.
OVER 100 POSTS LATER, SHE HAS RECIEVED ONE ANSWER!!!!!
ALL of the other posts were unwelcome, off-topic rants about right / wrong, good beekeeping / bad beekeeping, etc...
All t:
Why can't we be respectful of simple questions and just ANSWER THE QUESTION?!!!
Go back to post #1 and read it carefully.
What information was requested?
Then, read through the thread and total up the posts that gave meaningful information as an answer to the inquiry?
Amazing!


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Actually, I saw several answers. After so many options were presented, I didn't see any reason not to continue such an interesting discussion....

Ways to free up your equipment:

1. Combine 3 hives into 1
2. Give bees to another beekeeper (several offers to take the bees were posted)
3. Kill the queens and immerse combs into soapy water
4. Leave bees alone and let them starve out
5. Link to an article suggesting bees be swept out onto the cold ground
6. Shake bees out into the snow
7. Sell bees
8. Combine bees and put into an observation hive
9. Shop vac and spray RAID or other insecticide into the bag

While its true not all of these suggestions directly answer 'how do I kill my bees,' they do answer 'How do I free up my equipment for use next year' which I believe was the intended purpose behind the question. As a beginner myself, I realize I'd be screwed if people only answered the question I asked, instead of figuring out what I WANTED and giving other, perhaps wiser answers to address the root issue.


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

123456 said:


> Why don't you tell them how they must manage the nucs before you sell it to them? I guess that would put a big dent in sale$.
> You have any daughters Andrei?


I surely do.
In writing acctually.
I have a beutifull 17 yr old.


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

waynesgarden said:


> I don't know if killing off the bees at year's end will ever be part of my business plan, but I do know that what turns my stomach is someone who dares to "instruct" others on what a "real beekeeper" is.
> 
> Wayne


I must have a stronger stomach and I do know that I will never kill my bees at the end of the season.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

It interests me that people who have no problem killing hornets, wasps and yellow jackets feel so strongly about killing a similar insect. I don't do it but totally understand the philosophy and if it suited my business model I might do it.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

camero7 said:


> It interests me that people who have no problem killing hornets, wasps and yellow jackets feel so strongly about killing a similar insect. I don't do it but totally understand the philosophy and if it suited my business model I might do it.


My sentiments exactly!!!!!!! And like Big Bear I am done here.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

HarryVanderpool said:


> To answer you question:
> 1) Remove your queens and kill them.
> 2) 6 days later, remove any queen cells found on frames.
> 3) Two weeks later, fill a wheelbarrel half full with soapy water and place near the hives.
> ...


Yikes! How disturbing. If that is what it takes to be a commercial beekeeper then I'll remain a hobbyist.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> On the subject of killing bees... The U of MN's "Beekeeping in Northern Climates" course advocates killing half your bees every year.


Yup, we were taught this. Not sure how I feel about it. An older queen supposedly puts the hive at more risk for weak bees therefore disease... isn't that the thinking? :scratch: I'm just not feeling it.  but again, my experience is very limited.




camero7 said:


> It interests me that people who have no problem killing hornets, wasps and yellow jackets feel so strongly about killing a similar insect. I don't do it but totally understand the philosophy and if it suited my business model I might do it.


Well I can't speak for others but for me there is a huge difference. #1, I've purchased bees, placed them in a box and am using them for my benefit (pollination, beeswax and honey, propolis). They didn't ask to come to my house and be part of my life. If they sting me, I deserve it, if they swarm then it was meant to be. 

Wasps, hornets and yellow jackets are pests. I didn't purchase them and ask move them into new living quarters in my backyard. They come uninvited to the eaves of my roof and sting the crap out of us repeatedly when we are mowing the law or when the kids are playing outside, all the while offering nothing in return other than to scare anyone that they come in contact with.

I'm sure you weren't ASKING that question but I did feel inclined to comment since I'm a wasp killer and a honeybee lover


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

bigeddie said:


> Just keep doing what you do the way you do it. I think there are alot of sour grapes out there and a lot of wanabes. Jealousy is obvious when you have people doing your math for you and telling you yours don't add up. Saying your not a beekeeper just because you don't over winter bees is nuts in my book.
> I don't know you but I would bet that you forgot more about beekeeping than most of your naysayers will ever know. Thats why your successful and you don't need to defend your way of beekeeping to anyone.
> 
> Good luck!


 I hope to be fulltime beekeeper in a few years, as of right now I am going the treatment free route with my bees, if I find I can't keep them alive long enough to make a living, I will do as HoneyHouseholder does, start with packages every spring and sell the bees in the fall. At this point, I don't have the cash flow coming in to do it that way yet, but in a few years if I can't keep the bees alive my way, I'll shift gears and do it his way too, I have no problem with that. One way or another I'm going to work the bees without treating, I won't put that garbage in my hives and then brag about how pure my honey and wax is, no way.:no: John


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

The Soap Pixie said:


> Yikes! How disturbing. If that is what it takes to be a commercial beekeeper then I'll remain a hobbyist.


That is not the business model of all commercial beekeepers. I have no figures at hand but I would hazard a guess that it is the practice of a small minority. Others, like HoneyHouseholder here sells off his bees at seasons end. All the commercial beeks I know personally overwinter their colonies. There are many business models to follow in this business as with any other profession.

Painting an entire profession with a single broad brush is the height of ignorance. Don't let others lead you down that path.

Wayne

.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> When i saw the thread title, I knew that was gonna happen!


It is true that a good percentage of OP's get hijacked eventually, some sooner and some later, and it really must irritate the OP when it happens, especially when it's a beginner that really needs help with something. I'm sure that I've been guilty of going off topic a few times. John


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_These shaken bees you sell, wouldn't they be infested with varroa? _

There are foundress mites on the bees, but it is my understanding that the bulk of the mite population is in the sealed brood. Shaking bees out of one box and into another just transfers the foundress mites, but leaves all the mites behind that are in with the sealed brood.

I believe what Tara was referring to is based on the theory that if you break the bee brood cycle, once you begin to get brood again, the foundress mites will all go for the first available bee larva. Since there will be so many mites competing for a limited number of bee larva, the mites will overwhelm the larvae, kill the larvae, and the mites will die in the cell alongside the larvae they just killed.

That's a theory. I haven't found anyone with any data to back it up. Folks have observed that the first batch of brood are not saturated with mites, as if the mites delay going for brood until there is sufficient amounts of brood to sustain the mites better.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi Oldtimer,
When you get the hive broodless, hit the bees with a couple powdered sugar dusting's. That should make a big difference in the amount of mites that can get into the cells when she starts laying again.
I also agree with what Terra is trying to say.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

waynesgarden said:


> Painting an entire profession with a single broad brush is the height of ignorance. Don't let others lead you down that path.
> 
> Wayne
> 
> .


Just for the record, I wasn't trying to paint an entire profession with a single brush, hence why I said *IF * that is what it takes to be a commercial beekeeper.  But... I appreciate the point you made and your right, I shouldn't let the beekeeping practices of a few cloud my judgement on how individuals do business


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

well taken care of (fed, mite treatment) over wintered hives can be making honey in May off dandelion here when the packages are still raising brood. 

these boomer over wintered hives form the basis of valuable genetics that can be used in a breeding program

also these boomers can be made into 3 hives most often which will equal 3 packages in honey production. 

it all comes down to your preferences and bee karma I guess. i enjoy the manipulation part of the spring work and also the satisfaction of getting a nice hive into and out of winter. 

that feeling in late March when you crack a lid and find a hive filled wall to wall with bees. 

my genetics are the results of many decades of work and they grow stronger all the time. the package genetics come from a very small line of genetics that are cranked out year after year and have little resilieceny in my experience. 

its not just about the honey for me..............its about the journey me and my bees took to get the honey. 

peace/love/bees/honey


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Bud, 

I think you hit the nail on the head, there is something special about getting them through the winter and into a brand new season, a season full of high hopes! John


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## Panhandle Scott (Jul 11, 2009)

I have read both sides of the discussion and I agree with both depending on what your endeavour in bees is.

For HH the bees are the end to his means, no different than a egg, beef, pork or poultry producer. He just does not want to use his means to substains his ends for 6 months when they are not producing anything. If a egg producer only got eggs six months out of the year do you think they would feed the chickens for the other six without some benefit when they could sell of their chickens and start fresh the next year.

If he was maybe more in a Southern climate he might do different but at least he is selling the bees and not killing them all off. His business model works for him and from what it appears it has been successful for some time.

Me personally would try to retain what I could but that would mean leaving honey for the bees to help them thru the winter, since he is in honey production those 80 pounds or so is roughly $160 give or take extra for him per hive.

Not a jab but I would call him more of a bee manager than a bee keeper.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Panhandle Scott said:


> Not a jab but I would call him more of a bee manager than a bee keeper.


Another presumptuous enough to proclaim who is or isn't a beekeeper.

Wayne


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## Panhandle Scott (Jul 11, 2009)

waynesgarden said:


> Another presumptuous enough to proclaim who is or isn't a beekeeper.
> 
> Wayne


Just because one rides a horse does not make them a cowboy either. I was just stating what I thought based on his business model. I will leave it at that.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Panhandle Scott said:


> Just because one rides a horse does not make them a cowboy either. I was just stating what I thought based on his business model. I will leave it at that.


There are a multitude of ways to keep bees for a living, and they all work for each individual who is managing them, as long as that person has been successful with that style for a period of time, which HH has. A beekeeper is one who keeps bees, period, any other qualifications that are added to that definition is a bonus. John


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## Duboisi (Oct 7, 2009)

I'm still a bit puzzled.

Say I buy a hive from HH at in fall, add worth of sugar, and possibly -10 in pollen substitute, it's still slightly less than a package of 

Now, there are some work involved, and all that.

But say I gave worth of sugar and no pollen substitute. Walked away, and then I saw which hives made it. If 50% made it - I would have been ahead.
-Not to mention that I could do some splitting.

BTW: The few "forgotten hives" that are out of stores anyway, cannot be compared to a hive that has been robbed(completely) and then allowed to refill with some syrup.

Clearly this is the way HH wants to do it, and that makes it the right way for him. But I cannot quite get my head around why it makes him more honey and money than bees that are ready to work early spring.:s
Maybee I'll understand it better when I have more experience.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_The few "forgotten hives" that are out of stores anyway, cannot be compared to a hive that has been robbed(completely) and then allowed to refill with some syrup._

The forgotten hives are not out of stores. What happens is when you are doing the last pull of honey, you don't have room on the truck for all the supers of honey. You leave the honey on a couple hives, intending to come back and get it.

You forget or never make it back around to grab those few boxes of honey until after you have already cleaned up the honey house for the year. The bees are still alive, so you pull the excluder and give them a chance.

The other hives that you pulled honey from had all starved out long before you came around in midwinter to pick up equipment and get it ready for next spring.

Also, sometimes you have more brood boxes than bees, so you run a few hives as double deeps. Those will have sufficient stores to overwinter, and will still be alive after the singles have died.

It is not as if the forgotten hives are out of stores.


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## cow pollinater (Dec 5, 2007)

Just a thought that I had:
How many of those of you who are blasting Mr. Householder for his business practices eat meat?


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## wildflowerlanehoney (Aug 17, 2010)

well, after following this for a while now, i believe at one of the last bee meetings i was at, there was a fellow who proposed a thought.....

are you a bee keeper? or a honey producer? 

well......what is your ultimate goal in having bees? to make a living? mine....make some extra money. i am going do what needs to be done to keep my bees alive through the winter, but feel no heart break if i happen to loose a hive or smash a bee while working with them no more than a bee feels when they sting me.

think what ever any one wants, it is his living to make. if i ever get to the point where i am running 800 or so hives, i might want to spend a few days at his operation to learn a few tricks to making the money. 

besides, i may be wrong, but i thought he said he sold his bees at the end of the season, not killed them off.


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

Panhandle Scott said:


> 1. For HH the bees are the end to his means, no different than a egg, beef, pork or poultry producer. He just does not want to use his means to substains his ends for 6 months when they are not producing anything. If a egg producer only got eggs six months out of the year do you think they would feed the chickens for the other six without some benefit when they could sell of their chickens and start fresh the next year.
> 
> 2. Not a jab but I would call him more of a bee manager than a bee keeper.


1. That would make a lot of sense if he can have a bee burger or some bee meatloaf but I have not heard of anybody killing off their horse at the end of the race to save the cost of hay.
Has people caracter got so bad that we kill on purpouse our workers for few more $$$? I have killed farm animals to put them on the plate and I see nothing wrong with that but this is different. 

2. Bee box handler? It looks to me that when accountants are running the show in most fields there is less humanity. Personally I would not associate with this type.


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

cow pollinater said:


> How many of those of you who are blasting Mr. Householder for his business practices eat meat?


When did you last had a bee hotdog?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Ok, this is the bottom line that many of you are missing when talking about HH and the reasons he does what he does. The original purpose of disposing of his bees in the fall was to not have to deal with the mites and their effects 12 months a year. When starting the year out with package bees, you have a fresh start in regards to mites, sure, there may be a few mites riding on the backs of some bees in the packages, but there shouldn't be too many because the package producer treats for them. Next, you have a brand new queen. Since HH doesn't treat at all, the mite population continues to build throughout the season, but it generally won't have noticeable effects the first season. He found that trying to winter untreated bees the first winter had negative effects, colonies not making it through, and the ones that did make it were not worth much in terms of making a good crop that year. HH is commited to not treating, so that his honey and wax are as free of chemicals as possible. For him to make his living from bees, he found that he must start out the year with healthy bees and a new queen, all his hives then are at pretty much at the same stage every week of the season, they are easier to manage that way when you go to a bee yard, and he doesn't have to babysit individual hives throughout the year with their health issues. When you run 800+ hives, you have to look at each yard of bees as a group, the same task is done to each hive in succession, you simply don't have the time to give out special customized care to each hive. His method of management has evolved over many years to what it is today, he finds this is the best way for HIM to work bees for a living at this particular time, maybe it will change again someday as circumstances change. John


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

AndreiRN,
Just trying to put all that schooling to use. Most beekeeper have there winters a little bit slower. Accountant ( bee counter) is what I went to college for. Ofcoarse you write off all your supplies. If you buy bees every year you write those supplies off. My business has never showed a lose yet in 30+ years. Some year I didn't make much. I grew up in the business and have not ran the bee this way all my years of business. No reason to premite. I just got tired of funding the chemical company that couldn't get the job DONE. There is some new things in the work if the FDA just approves it for the USA.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

AndreiRN; you're confusing humanity with a box of bees. Too much Walt Disney out there in the land of fruits and nuts?


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

fISHSTIX, 
glad you noticed also. She sure is trying, *VERY*


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

In his articles on his system of making and overwintering nucs for production hives, Mel Disselkoen talks about how, after production at seasons end, simply letting colonies die off to the mites rather than treat or feed for overwintering.

OK cowboys, mount up on your high horses and go after him!

Wayne


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

fish_stix said:


> AndreiRN; you're confusing humanity with a box of bees. Too much Walt Disney out there in the land of fruits and nuts?


I would challenge you on a rabbit skinning or pig slaughter if you are up to it.
Killing bees to steal ALL of their honey is a wrong thing.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

fish_stix said:


> AndreiRN; you're confusing humanity with a box of bees. Too much Walt Disney out there in the land of fruits and nuts?


You may be surprised to learn what much of the general public feels about killing off millions of honeybees after using them up as so much commodity and taking all they have made. Laws are now being changed nationwide to slowly improve the quality of life conditions of factory-raised farm animals. People are reacting to the treatment of agricultural creatures without any 'humanity' involved, and they are demanding change.
I am daily amazed by the comments I hear in my town from just average people showing how concerned they are about the current plight of honeybees, and how they want to help honeybees survive.

_Totally regardless_ of whether the practice of killing one's bees is 'right' or 'wrong' and _regardless_ of whether it is good business or profitable or not to do so, I can guarantee you that 100 out of 100 of the non-beekeeping honey-buying people I might canvas would outright refuse to buy honey from any apiary that used this practice, _if they knew the truth about it_. I am positive they would feel this way even if they knew the BK would go out of business if they were forced to change. They would buy someone else's honey who did not use the blow-out/kill off practice. Killing honeybees en masse is just plain bad press, and it can't be hidden forever when consumers begin to ask more and more about where their local food is coming from.

These consumers are intelligent and thoughtful people, not 'fruits and nuts'.:no: Ignoring or underestimating the rising nationwide trends towards helping the struggling honeybee and towards more knowledgeable and involved local food consumers, or pretending it's only 'kooks' who might care about such things, is I believe very foolish indeed.


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