# Causes of dead open larva. EFB, Sacbrood, what else?



## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

To me, EFB and Sacbrood look very different. From what you describe it sounds like Sacbrood. For Sacbrood, the infected larva is generally elongated and a little "blown-up", kind of like a water balloon. Sacbrood is actually pretty common, but since there are generally so few symptomatic larvae in the hive at any given time, most beekeepers overlook it. 

For EFB, the larvae are generally curled into a "C" and look like they are melting into the bottom of the cell, sometimes they are a yellow color.

A sample to Beltsville is your best confirmation.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

JSL said:


> To me, EFB and Sacbrood look very different. From what you describe it sounds like Sacbrood. For Sacbrood, the infected larva is generally elongated and a little "blown-up", kind of like a water balloon. Sacbrood is actually pretty common, but since there are generally so few symptomatic larvae in the hive at any given time, most beekeepers overlook it.
> 
> For EFB, the larvae are generally curled into a "C" and look like they are melting into the bottom of the cell, sometimes they are a yellow color.
> 
> A sample to Beltsville is your best confirmation.


I haven't seen a single one down in the bottom of the cell. They are all laying in the "bottom" side of the cell stretched out. Watched bees actively dragging some out the other day. I have no idea why I didn't take any pictures when I saw them. Of course I've been awful at taking pictures while in the hive in general this year. I guess the novelty has worn off a bit and it's more "business" than it was last year. 

Course of "treatment" is requeening for sacbrood, correct? Would a mite load help vector this? This hive in particular is in a top bar hive. Couldn't really get a good OAV treatment in last fall/winter. Haven't transferred it to a Lang yet, planning on doing that in June for our remaining three TBHs.

Thanks, Dr. Latshaw!


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Looks like you have a good plan.
Also don't move anything from that hive into another, keep your tools, gloves... clean. Until you get word back from the lab.

>I will see a couple of dead open larva that are laying stretched out in the cells. They don't seem to be off white or yellow typically, and there are maybe 2-3 in the entire hive at any given time
EFB is know for stretch twisted larva, 2 or 3 in the entire hive does not sound like a problem. 
Do you have a spotty pattern to go with this? Or just an empty cell here and there.

The EFB stretched larva is often white, it's the younger stages will get snotty and off white color. A strong hive can clean up the dead from any disease fairly quick.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?298750-Pseudo-Laying-Workers

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304087-What-is-going-on-with-this

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-18a-colony-collaspse-revisited/


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Looks like you have a good plan.
> Also don't move anything from that hive into another, keep your tools, gloves... clean. Until you get word back from the lab.
> 
> >I will see a couple of dead open larva that are laying stretched out in the cells. They don't seem to be off white or yellow typically, and there are maybe 2-3 in the entire hive at any given time
> ...


Pattern strong thus far, just here and there.

Two different hives have this. One has had some level of uncapping going on since I caught it. And it has very few dead larva. Maybe 2-4 in the whole brood nest. It is my biggest, strongest colony. Was able to OAV during the winter as this colony is in a Lang. They never really dropped squat for mites after treatment. Nothing like their neighbor that absolutely rained mites after OAV. We got lucky enough for weather to cooperate and I got three or four weekly treatments of OAV in on this hive during January-February and did one other in early March as I recall. Uncapped some drone brood awhile back and didn't see a single mite in any of it (didn't uncap a ton of it, but probably 50 cells worth). We just completed cutting most of the broodnest off of bars they were on when I transferred them from a TBH nuc into their Lang. So the combs were handled pretty roughly, cut out, brushed off with a wad of grass, etc. That batch of brood has now finished emerging so I'm not sure some of that didn't contribute in some way?

The hive I'm really concerned about doesn't exhibit any brood pattern issues, but it has also been two weeks since I got in there, so she may have made up for some of that by re-laying.
I'm went into it to shake some bees for my cell starter and upon seeing the brood decided against shaking from that particular hive.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Sacbrood is viral, so not much you can do about it... If the hive is otherwise healthy and building, I wouldn't worry about it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

For sure see slumped larva in the bottom of cells, but they remain pretty white not really discolored. Uploading an HD video now of the comb sample I'm sending to Beltsville.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Apologies for the zoo sound effects, two young kids, two cats, and a dog.
Sometimes it takes a little while before it is available in HD.


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## blue (Apr 21, 2011)

It is snotbrood / parasitic mite syndrome. You can get it with and without high mite counts.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

blue said:


> It is snotbrood / parasitic mite syndrome. You can get it with and without high mite counts.


Going to do an alcohol shake tomorrow. I haven't seen a mite in the brood I uncapped. And havent noticed any other signs (understand they may not show up).

Will uncap some drone brood too. 

Still may consider shaking them into a Lang then hitting them with OAV and letting them start from scratch. Then use my top bars as mating nucs and swarm traps.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I uncapped some drone and didn't see any mites, but I didn't have the right tools so I did maybe 10 is all with my pocket knife.

I went through the entire hive and the dead larva "situation" has improved tremendously since just a few days ago. Queen still laying well and they're still drawing comb. There were still dead larva, but I didn't notice any dried up in the cells... like maybe they've started cleaning out better? Eitherway, bee lab should have the sample soon. I'm assuming it takes 2 or 3 weeks to hear back from them? More?

Circumstances didn't allow for me to do a mite wash (forgot it and couldn't make the trip home). Lots of wet nectar in the hive, flow is really ramping up.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

One mite. Washed them in alcohol several times figuring that couldn't be right. 1/2 cup of bees from frames of emerging brood shook them into another container to allow older bees to fly off.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Any status on your hive?
Do you have any pictures of the brood?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Any status on your hive?
> Do you have any pictures of the brood?


The hive still had some dead larva when I checked last. Not like it was. Beltsville just emailed me the results today.



As a couple posts above... only one mite from 1/2 cup of bees shaken off frames of emerging brood. Queen still laying like a champ. I'm a bit confused. 

I don't have pictures from this exact hive, but here is a video of the comb samples I sent to Beltsville:


jwcarlson said:


> Apologies for the zoo sound effects, two young kids, two cats, and a dog.
> Sometimes it takes a little while before it is available in HD.


 

I have another hive showing the same signs (dead larva shortly before capping). Is several dead larva in a hive somewhat "normal"? It isn't really enough to affect the pattern greatly. 
This other hive has always had some level of uncapping going on and cleaning out brood. Here are a couple of typical frames from that hive:






Here is another picture showing a dead larva just down and to the right of the queen:


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Those are the first picture you posted, you have a nice health brood pattern, and a nice looking queen.

>I have another hive showing the same signs (dead larva shortly before capping). Is several dead larva in a hive somewhat "normal"? 
With a pattern like that yes it's normal.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Screenshots from the actual samples sent to Beltsville:


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