# Permacomb



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't.

If you really want to you can boil it clean or take it to the car wash and powerwash it. It will take up to 220 F temps.

Since it starts out at 5.1mm cell size the bees will chew it out sooner and less cocoons will accumulate than in 5.4mm comb.


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

JT;

I am still using the same PC in my hives that I initially installed circa 1980. Have not cleaned them and the queen still lays in them.

Thanx.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Here is the discussion link that is REALLY hard to find.

http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000049.html


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## JT Smith (Dec 29, 2005)

Bullseye, 

Thanks for the link-very helpful.

One more thing: Why doens't permacomb come in a full depth size?


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

JT:

The comb is only available in mediums. I see no reason to pay for a new full depth mold because 3 medium supers = more cells than 2 full depths.

Also, using three mediums in the brood chamber allows for reversals (in late winter / ealy spring) that are less likely to break the cluster than 2 full depths.

Further questions - feel free to conact me by email: [email protected]

Thanx.

John

PS: Thanx Bill for providing the link. I thought the original PermaComb link had been deleted by Barry.

[ December 31, 2005, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: John Seets ]


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

Michael, I am currently going through the old thread and I see that you were very high on PC in your search for SC. Are you still using PC? If so in what specific configurations and uses. Thanks.


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## Brett (Aug 19, 2005)

I have spent some time with our local inspector and he showed me how he checks drone larve for varroa with a cappings scratcher by piercing through several of them and counting the mites. This wouldn't be possible with permacomb so is this a big negative for hive inspections?


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## GreenMountainRose (Sep 6, 2004)

Brett, you must go read through the lengthy discussion on Permacomb that Bullseye Bill gave above... the drone cells are built BELOW the permacomb... very easy to uncap AND eliminate.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, I am currently going through the old thread and I see that you were very high on PC in your search for SC. Are you still using PC?

Yes.

>If so in what specific configurations and uses. 

I heat it to 200 F and dip it in 212 F beeswax and shake off the excess. It ends up with an inside diameter of 4.85 which is the equivelant of 4.95mm cell size (when you allow for a standard bee made wall instead of a thicker plastic one)

>I have spent some time with our local inspector and he showed me how he checks drone larve for varroa with a cappings scratcher by piercing through several of them and counting the mites. This wouldn't be possible with permacomb

It's not only possible but it's automatic. The bees will build drone between the boxes and everytime you pull a box of brood off you will expose a row of drone across most of the frames.

All you have to do is pay attention and you can assess the mites.


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

I understand from a local beekeeper that bees will not draw drone comb in permacomb (because the plastic can't be altered by the bees) so all drone comb is found in the small space between the boxes.

How come this stuff isn't more widely used? There's no frames to nail, foundation to embed and wire, etc. The frames don't get eaten up by wax moth and beetles. Aside from the "purists" who refuse to look at anything new you'd think this would have overtaken traditional frames.

Does anyone know of a reason you wouldn't want to use permacomb?

Mike


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

Also, when using permacomb in polystyrene (or wooden too I guess) would you have the bees draw them out a bit before putting 9-frame spacers in the super.

I'm thinking of trying both poly hives and permacomb this year to see what I think.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How come this stuff isn't more widely used? There's no frames to nail, foundation to embed and wire, etc. The frames don't get eaten up by wax moth and beetles. Aside from the "purists" who refuse to look at anything new you'd think this would have overtaken traditional frames.

I'll bet John Seets is thinking the same thing every day.

>Does anyone know of a reason you wouldn't want to use permacomb?

I looked at it back in the early 80's (or maybe it was the late 70's) and here's why I didn't buy it then:

1) It only comes in mediums and I was using deeps. Now that I'm converted to mediums I think I should have done that back in the 80's. So now I think that was a good thing.

2) It's non standard size. That bothered me then. I was quite religious about "beespace" and believed it was sacrilege to violate it. Now that I've used it I see the combs being connected from one box to the next as a good thing. It's a place for them to build drone and it keeps a "continuous" comb feeling for the bees moving from one box to the next. So Now I think that's a good thing.

3) There are no build in spacers. At first this seems like a bad thing. I actually love it now. It allows me to interlace them with regular frames and get my 1 1/4" spacing without having to cut down frames. But you have to either space by eye, use a spacer comb or install the spacers (which come with the PermaComb). Regular frames don't fit the spacers.

4) It's expensive. Now that I've seen people selling drawn comb for more than PermaComb costs, I don't know if it's that expensive, but it is more expensive than frames and foundation.

5) It's heavy. I have not changed my mind on this one. It's still heavy.

6) Acceptance. This is no worse than any plastic. And with foundation you have to get the bees to DRAW it. With PermaComb you only have to get them to USE it. Bees don't like plastic. No matter what anyone says. But once they use it they don't care. I wax coat mine so it's no problem. This also resolves my one other issue with it.

7) Cell size. It's better. It's 5.1mm or so which is far better than 5.4mm. But it's still not 4.9mm. I think you'll see shorter capping times, and less Varroa but not as much as you'll see at 4.9mm

8) I think a lot of people are confused about how to uncap them. Especially if the bees cap them below the surface. You need a Hackler Honey Punch for that.

>Also, when using permacomb in polystyrene (or wooden too I guess) would you have the bees draw them out a bit before putting 9-frame spacers in the super.

It's already "drawn". Space it 9 frames right off the bat. It's not a problem.

You can buy eight frame spacers from any bee supplier and eight frame spacing works fine once they've used it once.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I see the combs being connected from one box to 
> the next as a good thing.

So, you use the old piano wire "garotte" trick to
cut the bridge comb between boxes, or you simply
rip boxes apart by brute force, leaving chunks
of random comb attached to top and bottom bars?

And where then do you set down a super without
having it drip all over the place?

Sounds very messy to me - what's needed here
is a cut-down super that presents proper bee
space with these non-standard "smaller than
medium, but bigger than shallow" frames.

Has anyone worked this out yet?

If someone did, I'd be using the stuff for
honey supers, but I'm afraid I'd hesitate to
try it in brood chambers without some side-by
side bake-offs, and a bullet-proof approach to
the bee space issue.

Life's too short to mess with bridge comb in
brood chambers, and I'm too short to mess
with bridge comb in supers as high as we
stack 'em!


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

If you wax dip them you get instant 4.9mm small cell comb. I don't know of any other way to get that.

I just ordered another 150 of them for that reason.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>So, you use the old piano wire "garotte" trick to cut the bridge comb between boxes, or you simply rip boxes apart by brute force, leaving chunks of random comb attached to top and bottom bars?

(I know I am going to regret this)

Since I am the only person I know that has 70 hives of 100% Permacomb, I will qualify myself to answer your questions with the methods that I employ.

I use an Italian hive tool, (the one with a hook on the end), to lift each end of each frame. Then I will offset the entire box 3/4 inch to the side and move to the next hive and do the same, repeating to the end of the row. By the time I return to the first hive the bees have cleaned up all the honey and is ready to be removed.

>And where then do you set down a super without having it drip all over the place?

When I move full supers I set them on breadpans. I find breadpans from the bakery or scrapyards very handy for many uses, even for emergency top covers when needed. I usually spray the pan with (oh my god) Bee Quick which is also sprayed on an inspection cloth on top to keep bees from getting back into the supers while I am still in the yard pulling honey.

>Sounds very messy to me - 

Not when done as I do.

>what's needed here is a cut-down super that presents proper bee space with these non-standard "smaller than medium, but bigger than shallow" frames. Has anyone worked this out yet?

Been there, done that, wasn't necessary. I cut down boxes, both top and bottom to "correct" the bee space. All I did was to make non-standard equipment that was harder to work with than the standard, I eventully scraped them. When the frames were spaced close to each other, top to bottom, the bees would propolize instead of bridging with wax making them almost impossible to seperate.

>If someone did, I'd be using the stuff for honey supers, but I'm afraid I'd hesitate to try it in brood chambers without some side-by side bake-offs, and a bullet-proof approach to the bee space issue.

IMO the "bee space" issue is not an issue. Every hive needs a certain percentage of drone comb, and the bridge comb is the perfect place for the bees to make it. It is also the perfect place to evaluate for mites when you break the boxes apart exposing the drone and any mites they may harbor.

The only real downside I have found is the start-up cost issue, it pays in the long run but is a bit hard to lay out that much all at once when you are just starting out. I have only broke two frames in three years, and that was when I dropped a super off the truck.

We adapt to everything else to remain beekeepers. Adapting to certain procedures in using PC is not difficult and in many ways makes beekeeping easier.

Jim, I know you can afford to try some. Buy enough for five mediums (45) and install a swarm or package in it and watch it take off. If you want some tips for quick acceptance let me know and I will help you.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> When the frames were spaced close to each other, 
> top to bottom, the bees would propolize instead 
> of bridging with wax making them almost impossible
> to seperate.

This tends to indicate that the space between frames
was too small - when the space is less than "bee
space", the bees propolize. When it is more than
"bee space", they draw comb. While I realize that
there are many different interpretations of "bee
space", which one did you use?

> IMO the "bee space" issue is not an issue.

I'm not willing to go back to the pre-Langstroth
days, where every hive is gooed and cross-combed
to the point of being a mess. What part of
"movable comb" and "interchangeable components"
is so hard to see as "a good thing"?

> Every hive needs a certain percentage of drone 
> comb, and the bridge comb is the perfect place 
> for the bees to make it.

My problem would be in extraction - the "extra"
comb attached to the bottom of each frame would
tend to fracture away from the frames, and the
result would be about the same as a "blow out"
of wax foundation-based comb (a mess that prompts
one to stop the extractor to clear the comb
chunks out of the way).

> Then I will offset the entire box 3/4 inch to 
> the side and move to the next hive and do the 
> same, repeating to the end of the row.

Sounds slow and painful versus simply cracking
the propolis seal between boxes with a single
twist of the wrist, and lifting off the box,
firm in the knowledge that you have a "clean"
box, one that can simply be set atop another
super or brood box without a mess, and without
crushing bees.

> Jim, I know you can afford to try some. 

Sure, but I don't think it is unreasonable to
expect the product to have at least the same
level of engineering and tech support behind
it that any other frame would have. The whole
idea of "frames" is to have an interchangeable
component that SUPPORTS bee space and the
inherent advantages of the use of bee space
as a design rule. I can't expect a crew of
teenagers to tolerate heat, bee stings, work
days that start before dawn and end after sunset,
heavy lifting, AND a bunch of boxes that are
gooed and bridge-combed into a solid mass!

The whole philosophy of working a yard would
have to change - my standard mantra is "work fast,
work clean". What excessive bridge comb means
to me is that we have a hive that either has
defective gear that needs to be swapped out,
or a hive that was NOT serviced in at least the
last pass through the yard.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So, you use the old piano wire "garotte" trick to
cut the bridge comb between boxes, or you simply
rip boxes apart by brute force, leaving chunks
of random comb attached to top and bottom bars?

I suppose one could use a "garrote", but I never have. It does not take much force to separate them. There is a distinct weak spot where the bridge comb is. When inspecting I tend to pry one frame at time with the Italian hive tool (my favorite hive tool). It takes no more force to lift a PermaComb that is bridged than a wooden frame that is propolized. When I pull a whole box, I pry the box up and then pry each frame down from between one at a time by catching the end of the top bar with my hive tool. But it's not hard and goes quickly once you have the hang of it.

>And where then do you set down a super without
having it drip all over the place?

I guess I'm not pulling supers much unless I'm harvesting. Then I'd break them loose and leave them on for a while and the bees will quickly clean it all up. But if you set a bottom board down it will drip on that and the bees will quickly clean it up.


>Sounds very messy to me

Isn't harvesting always messy?

> - what's needed here
is a cut-down super that presents proper bee
space with these non-standard "smaller than
medium, but bigger than shallow" frames.

It's a nice idea. But I've seen thin top bars have the same problem regardless of 5/16" beespace. My guess is it won't matter.

>If someone did, I'd be using the stuff for
honey supers

I didn't buy them back in 1980 or so because of the same reason you're not. Beespace. I wish I had gotten them then. I would have also converted to mediums before I bought all those deeps.









>and a bullet-proof approach to the bee space issue.

I don't think there is a bulletproof approach to the bee space issue with no top and bottom bars.

>Life's too short to mess with bridge comb in
brood chambers

Funny, Walt Wright is trying to figure out how to get those solid combs from one box to the other with thin metal frames, and those of us using PermaComb are saying its a good thing. It's not a mess in the brood chamber. It's a built in Varroa monitoring system.







You just have to not worry about it. It's hardly every honey in the brood nest. It's virtually always drone brood.

>I'm not willing to go back to the pre-Langstroth
days, where every hive is gooed and cross-combed
to the point of being a mess. What part of
"movable comb" and "interchangeable components"
is so hard to see as "a good thing"?

It's not hard to see the concept of movable comb as good. It's not the pre-Langstroth days. It's the future.







Worrying about beespace is what got in the way of my buying it 25 years or so ago. It's just a paradigm shift to realize that bridges between the boxes seem to work well for the bees and are not that hard to deal with for the beekeeper.

>My problem would be in extraction - the "extra"
comb attached to the bottom of each frame would
tend to fracture away from the frames

You underestimate how solidly it is attached. I've never seen any of it "fracture" in the extractor.

>The whole philosophy of working a yard would
have to change - my standard mantra is "work fast,
work clean". What excessive bridge comb means
to me is that we have a hive that either has
defective gear that needs to be swapped out,
or a hive that was NOT serviced in at least the
last pass through the yard. 

Yes, it's a change of philosophy. IMO you should stop worrying about bridge comb. Bridge comb between the boxes is your friend. Embrace it. It allows the queen to move more freely from box to box and that gives you more brood which gives you more bees and that gives you more honey and that gives you more money.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Isn't harvesting always messy?

No, not at all. Pulling supers may be hot and
tiring work, but if it gets "messy", there's
a serious operational problem to address.

> I guess I'm not pulling supers much unless 
> I'm harvesting.

I was speaking about the use in brood chambers
when I said "pull supers". I guess I should
have said "pull upper brood chambers". Regardless,
if one can't shuffle frames like a Las Vegas
blackjack dealer, one is fighting with one's
equipment. It sounds like the use of these
things in a brood chamber would result in
a hive inspection technique that would never
be mistaken for "style" or "panache".

> It's not the pre-Langstroth days. It's the future. 

It would be the future, if the darn frames
were interchangeable with a normal fame, but
they aren't so it isn't. It MIGHT be the future
if a box could be specified where these frames
could be used without a mess resulting, but
until someone works out the details, it will
remain just what it has always been, an obscure
backwater. This annoys me, as I'd LOVE to use
some of the fully-drawn stuff, but it seems that
I have to make an R&D investment to get it out
of the backyards of hobbyists, and into the
real world, where we tend to run out of daylight
before we run out of hives to service.

> There is a distinct weak spot where the bridge 
> comb is... 
> ...You underestimate how solidly it is 
> attached. I've never seen any of it "fracture" 
> in the extractor.

Well, which IS it? "Weak" or "solidly attached"?

Yes, I understand that non-standard thin topbars
are a problem in their own right, that's why I
don't buy any of THAT non-standard stuff either.

> Yes, it's a change of philosophy. 

It seems to be an opportunity to change from
"movable comb" and "interchangeable parts" to
utter chaos and mess.

> IMO you should stop worrying about bridge comb. 

No freakin' way! Speed, efficiency, modularity,
and ease of operations are the difference between
a profit and a loss. Reducing man-hours while
still doing the job is what the game is all about
once you get above more colonies than you can
work yourself in a single afternoon.

> Bridge comb between the boxes is your friend. 

No, its an indication of a lack of understanding
of even the most basic bee behavior.

> It allows the queen to move more freely from 
> box to box

Like she has any problem moving between boxes
in a hive with no bridge comb? Come on, this
is a VERY weak claim. Worse yet, putting a
brood chamber back together with all that bridge
comb puts the queen *AT RISK* - she can
get caught or crushed in all that messy bridge
comb and gunk.

> and that gives you more brood 

Come on, how many useful brood-laying cells
in a typical medium assuming the usual oval
brood nest pattern? And how many eggs per
day does a queen lay at most? And therefore,
how many times might a queen move between
boxes in a week? Get real. 

> which gives you more bees 

This is stacking pure speculation atop wishful
thinking atop a lack of willingness to sit down
and do the math.

Anyway, no one seems to have addressed the
basic "design defect" with a customized box
for the frames, so I'm guessing here that
one would need to either add a shim to the
top-bar, or make a much shallower rabbet to
deal with the non-standard top bar, and rip
some amount off the bottom of the box to end
up with something close to a normal "top space"
or "bottom space" box.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

(I knew it...)

>Anyway, no one seems to have addressed the
basic "design defect" with a customized box
for the frames, so I'm guessing here that
one would need to either add a shim to the
top-bar, or make a much shallower rabbet to
deal with the non-standard top bar, and rip
some amount off the bottom of the box to end
up with something close to a normal "top space"
or "bottom space" box. 

Your inability to accept what we have found to be true is going to keep you from enjoying the benefits of PC. That is truly your loss. All you need to do is try one hive of 100% PC, change a couple of techniques in manipulations, to learn the truth as we see it.

The one thing that is absolutely NOT necessary is to start making non-standard boxes in a misguided attempt to maintain a flawed mis-conception.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Well, which IS it? "Weak" or "solidly attached"?

"Contradiction is not a sign of falsity, nor the lack of contradiction a sign of truth." Blaise Pascal

The comb is only one or at most two cells thick on the bottom of the frame. It is made of beeswax, a soft, weak substance, that I believe you are familiar with.  This weak material is very solidly attached to the PermaComb. This is the line of least resistance that causes it to easily seperate when prying up a frame. But it's also a short enough amount of wax that it does not fly off. There is no substantial amount of comb there and there is no leverage, because of it only being 1/4" to 1/2" at most of wax, to cause it to fly off.

>It seems to be an opportunity to change from
"movable comb" and "interchangeable parts" to
utter chaos and mess.

Only in the imaginings of someone who hasn't actually tried it. I had the same view until I tried it.

>No freakin' way! Speed, efficiency, modularity,
and ease of operations are the difference between
a profit and a loss.

I haven't noticed any loss of time. Things go as fast as they ever did.

>Anyway, no one seems to have addressed the
basic "design defect"...

Some of us thought the same way until we tried it.


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

If you wax dip them you get instant 4.9mm small cell comb. I don't know of any other way to get that

What's your method for dipping them Patrick. Do you do a quick dip in melted wax or spray them. I guess I'm asking how you get uniform coverage to ensure small cell size.

Mike


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

I learned from MB, but I'm lazy.

I brought a pot of water with a few inches of wax floating on the top to nearly a boil. Then I dipped each comb in to the pot, one half at a time. 
By adjusting the temperature of the wax/water, and the amount of time that you leave the plastic comb submerged so that it can warm up, you can get a pretty even coating of wax on the comb.

I don't have calipers and have not accurately measured the cell size, but bees raised in them have had lower sticky board mite counts than my LC bees.

Heating wax can be a fire hazard. I wouldn't do this in the house.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I heated my PermaComb on a sheet of cardboard in a gas oven to 200 F and then dipped it and then shook off the excess. Very messy. I would NOT do it in the house and I would NOT wear clothes you ever expect to wear for anything else again.









The PermaComb melts at 220 F.


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## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

>I brought a pot of water with a few inches of wax floating on the top to nearly a boil. Then I dipped each comb in to the pot, one half at a time.
By adjusting the temperature of the wax/water, and the amount of time that you leave the plastic comb submerged so that it can warm up, you can get a pretty even coating of wax on the comb.<

How does this work? It seems to me that the wax couldn't get into the cells to coat them because of the air trapped inside since the face of each side is down when dipped. Am I missing something. I'd really like to dip my PC but I don't think I'm set up to do it as described so far. Any other suggestions?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Perhaps if you melted the wax on a hot plate or in a Turkey Roaster double boiler (which is what I'm using) PERHAPS you could dip it and wait for the comb to warm up. I didn't have a lot of luck if I didn't heat it up because the wax clumps up. I'm not that patient, so I heat them in the oven while I go do other things and then come back and dip the whole batch.


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

Wondering too if those of you who use permacomb for brood install it in a 9 frame configuration or use the 9 frame only in the supers and 10 everywhere else. It'd sure be nice to have the entire box configured one way.

Mike


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

"It seems to me that the wax couldn't get into the cells to coat them because of the air trapped inside since the face of each side is down when dipped"

I held the comb vertically, by one ear, and dipped it in the pot of wax and water. The pot was not deep enough to submerge the whole frame, so I pulled it out, turned it over and grabbed it by the other, now waxy, ear and dipped the other half. Works for me.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I use nine frame spacing everywhere.

However if you want to draw out foundationless or SC foundation inbetween PC you will need to space them closer.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Wondering too if those of you who use permacomb for brood install it in a 9 frame configuration or use the 9 frame only in the supers and 10 everywhere else. It'd sure be nice to have the entire box configured one way.

I put eleven in a ten frame box. I also put empty frames between them to get small cell and open up the brood nest. These end up 11 frames also. The lack of spacer on the PermaComb makes it easier to do. I have a frame grip and I use it to make the space between the combs consistent.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>I have a frame grip and I use it to make the space between the combs consistent.

Would that be the aluminum cast one, or the forged steel one?

I like the steelone because the four hooks fit inside of the cells and will not slip off. But I can see the thickness of the aluminum one, if that's what you use, being handy for a spacer.


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

You put 11 frames in a 10 frame box? How does that work? Is the permacomb so thin that 11 PC frames will fit in the space of 10 regular. I got in touch with touch with John Seets and got a quote for two hives worth of PC. I'm going to try 2 hives totally PC in a 9 frame configuration.

Mike


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>You put 11 frames in a 10 frame box? How does that work?

PC is basicly flat, one inch thick. It does not have the self spacing end bars that wood frames have. So if you don't use the frame spacers that come with the PC, you can space the frames a bit closer allowing you to get another frame in a box.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>I'm going to try 2 hives totally PC in a 9 frame configuration.

I would like to know the results of your second year mite drops in your 100% PC hives. I am not certain if my lack of mites are a result of PC or the fact that I have not been treating and the surviving colonys are more mite resistant.

I can tell you that the very few hives I have with some drawn wax (mainly from cutouts and foundationless frames), in the same yards have much heavier loads.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>I am not certain if my lack of mites are a result of PC or the fact that I have not been treating...

Out of curiosity, what were you using for bottom boards--screened or solid?


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## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

I've been trying to figure out a way to dip my new PC but I don't think I have the necessary pots/heating equipment. I would love to improvise, if possible but don't want to waste my time if its not going to work. If I don't have a gas oven (for heating the frames) and a pot big enough and deep enough to melt wax and dip the frames, what other method can I employ.
Sorry, I've tried searching the archives but could only find your usual method, MB.
Thanks for any ideas.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

kenpkr,

I've been thinking bout that problem
I don't have enough wax to fill a large container
how bout this
put PC in 200 degree oven
melt wax in double boiler made from 2 bowls (bowl in a bowl)
take cookie sheet and put it in oven to warm up
put PC in warm cookie sheet on counter laying flat
ladle in wax on one side
flip and shake out excess
ladle wax in other side
flip and shake out excess
continue till you get lots of wax in cookie sheet
put cookie sheet in oven to melt wax
pour wax back in bowl
continue

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Would that be the aluminum cast one, or the forged steel one?

Cast aluminum. I find the steel ones tear up the cells they dig into.

>You put 11 frames in a 10 frame box?

I do.

> How does that work?

Fine.

> Is the permacomb so thin that 11 PC frames will fit in the space of 10 regular.

I also take regular frames and shave 1/16" off each side of the spacer and put 11 frames in. It's just easier with the PermaComb because there are no spacers built into the comb.

>...take cookie sheet and put it in oven to warm up...flip and shake out excess

All I can say is don't do it in the kitchen.


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

Mike and Bill;

ref. 1/11

I appreciate your efforts but I realized long ago that you can lead the horse (or mule in this case) to water but can't make 'em drink.

Thanx again.

John

[ January 14, 2006, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: John Seets ]


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm looking forward to trying the PC. We have a local beekeeper coming to speak to the club on his experience using PC in Polystyrene hives. That should prove very interesting.

Mike


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

One more thing. MB mentioned he runs his PC on 8 frame hives. Think there'd be any advantage to starting them out on 9 frames, letting the bees draw out the plastic a little and then dropping them down to 8 to increase the yield. Maybe going a little overboard. 

Mike


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They are already drawn. I put 9 in the brood chambers and 6 or 7 in the supers of the eight frame hives.


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

From the pictures on Seets' website I gathered that even though the PC is 'drawn' the bees will draw it out a little further even if it's put in a 9 frame configuration. Similar to how you get more honey out of 9 frames in a traditional hive than you do out of 10. The bees draw the 'drawn' comb deeper and store even more in each cell.

I can't wait to get my PC and give it a try this year.

Mike


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In ten frame they will draw just a little out on it. In 9 frame they draw out more. In 8 frame they draw it out more. Once it's accepted (been used by the bees) I'd go for the 8 frame. Before that I wouldn't just so they don't start thinking of building combs between the PermaComb.


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## Jeff McGuire (Nov 18, 2005)

What is the website address for Mr Seets I'd like to see the pictures.

Jeff


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

Jeff,

Try this site: http://www.bee-l.com/bulletinboard/seets/permacomb.htm

Patrick


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Out of curiosity, what were you using for bottom boards--screened or solid? 

I use SBB's on just about all my hives, except new swarms or packages in early spring. For the most part I make my own but I do have some boughten ones too. I am trying the plastic molded type that has stainless steel screen but I had to make runners on the bottoms for a sliding tray. All my SBB's have sliding trays under the screen.

I have one solid board in each yard (3) just to see the difference in survivability and honey production. So far the results are much better better with SBB's and closing them during the winter (<50F nightime).


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

MB..do you do your uncapping with a knife or a plane? Any reason to use one and not the other with permacomb. I saw on one of the threads someone telling someone else to check the depth on their chain uncapper so it didn't damage the PC. Just wanting to make sure that if I go with the plane it doesn't chew up my frames.

Mike


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

John, I believe you run one deep and one medium in your brood boxes if I remember right.

Do you have any 100% PC hives? And if so, what treatments, frame configurations, entrances, excluders, and bottom boards do you employ?

Have you also seen lesser mite counts in your (if any) PC only hives as I have?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>do you do your uncapping with a knife or a plane? 

I use a hard plastic pie server to scrape the cappings off, then I use the 2 inch Hackler Honey Punch to puncture the lower caps if there are any.

>Any reason to use one and not the other with permacomb. 

A heated knife will melt the plastic and ruin the comb.

>I saw on one of the threads someone telling someone else to check the depth on their chain uncapper so it didn't damage the PC. Just wanting to make sure that if I go with the plane it doesn't chew up my frames.

I believe that the PC was intended for use with the Cowan chain uncapper to begin with.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>MB..do you do your uncapping with a knife or a plane? Any reason to use one and not the other with permacomb. I saw on one of the threads someone telling someone else to check the depth on their chain uncapper so it didn't damage the PC. Just wanting to make sure that if I go with the plane it doesn't chew up my frames.

I used a cold bread knife for the ones that wern't low and a hackler honey punch on the ones below the "grade". I use a hot knife on regular combs, but not on PermaComb.


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

Bill;

Most of my hives use 3 PCs for the brood. The other 3rd are 1 FD with Pierco and 2 PCs. About half my hives use screened bottoms. Mite counts in order of most to least typically pan out to be:

1) FD + 2PC 
2) FD + 2PC + SBB
3) 3 PC
4) 3 PC + SBB

Its pretty clear that the SBB + PC helps reduce mite counts.

For all hives, all honey supers are PC. All PC brood and supers are used in 9 frame config.

Duiring the flow, I always use excluders on all hives. Tried them without in previous years and got tired of pulling brood out of the supers at extract time. Caveat: Having PC in the brood chambers allows me to pull a frame of capped brood up above the excluder in the early spring to get the bees to traverse the excluder (for stubborn hives).

When treating mites is warranted, I have been alternating between the Checkmite and Apistan. The plastic frames are less inclined to absorb the chemicals as is the case with all wax comb. I think this helps prevent the mites from becoming resistant to the miticides. I was/am planning to go to Oxalic if and when this happens. But so far, so good.

Thanx.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Were do we order from?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

This link:

http://www.bee-l.com/bulletinboard/seets/permacomb.htm

that was listed before, has the contact info.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>1) FD + 2PC 
>2) FD + 2PC + SBB
>3) 3 PC
>4) 3 PC + SBB

>Its pretty clear that the SBB + PC helps reduce mite counts.

Thanks John, that follows suit with what I have been seeing in my hives. I haven't decided wether the smaller size cell in PC or lack of treatments (survivalability) is what is responsible for the lack of mites. Only 1/3 of my hives (of the PC only) have had ANY treatment other than OA vapor, the other 2/3 haven't had any treatments at all, so there can not be any residue factor in those. The last time I used OA was Nov 2004, that winter I had about 25% losses, this winter I have only lost five weak late season cut-outs that should have been combined, and one full hive. That hive was one that a swarm moved into a stack of deeps with Pierco that I had taken out of service.

Interesting that hive which I put on a SBB filled both deeps with brood and another with honey. Then the robbers came and now nothing is left but a huge pile of cappings and a ton of varroa on the tray. I suppose that many varroa from that hive are now in the PC hives.  

It will be interesting to see how many hives I will lose this winter. But when people pay you to remove swarms and hives, winter losses are the least of my problems.

As far a excluders are concerned, I have been thinking of using them more. I bait up into the next box usually by putting two frames up with one syrup sprayed empty inbetween (spraying all other emptys too). I have had some problem with chimneing (brood and honey up the center without filling the outside frames), perhaps excluders will alleviate this. For some reason some bees just like long skinny hives. Now that I have many extracted (once used) frames, baiting up should not be necessary.


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

Mike,
Just out of curiosity, did you at anytime try to coat the PC without heating the comb first. In other words, what happened when you dipped cool comb into the hot wax?
Thanx.
John


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

MB.

You described your method of heating your PC and then dipping in wax. What do you heat the frames in, the oven? Do you trust the built in thermometer in the oven to keep from melting the plastic or do yo have another method. It sounds like you get the frames close to their melting point to ensure an even coating of the wax.

Mike


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Just out of curiosity, did you at anytime try to coat the PC without heating the comb first. In other words, what happened when you dipped cool comb into the hot wax?

The wax clumped up and I could never really get it back out.

I do wonder if you put it in the wax and waited long enough would the PermaComb warm up enough from the wax for it to flow in (and subsequently back out)? But. evem of ot worked, it would take too long, from my point of view, unless I had a rack that would hold twenty of them or so in the wax.

>You described your method of heating your PC and then dipping in wax. What do you heat the frames in, the oven?

Yes.

>Do you trust the built in thermometer in the oven to keep from melting the plastic or do yo have another method.

No I don't trust the thermometer in the oven. I bought an oven thermometer that I put in the oven to check. I also put the frames on a sheet of cardboard so they wouldn't touch the rack. I also have the oven outside.

>It sounds like you get the frames close to their melting point to ensure an even coating of the wax.

Yes, I do. I did melt a little on one or two before I got the hang of it. They melt at 220 F.


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## ikkybeer (Jan 11, 2006)

Hi Guys,

I went to my beekeeping class last night, and armed with the knowledge that the pc only come in mediums, I pointed that fact out to a fellow student as we were gathered at the exhibit table. To which some other student said, 'well that one is a medium, but this one is shallow'. It was cut down.

I acquired a shallow frame extractor(that sent me on this journey ) and therefore I must have (any other ideas?) shallow honey supers but am going to use medium brood chambers. 

Can the pc be adjusted with a shim to fix the thin top bar and the frame be cut down to the proper depth to preserve bee space so I could use them as shallows and possibly avoid the bridge comb in honey supers?

MB,

Also, I am getting 5 frame deep nuc that I plan to regress as soon as possible. If I use unwaxed pc as a first step should the spacing between the frames be narrower than the 1 3/8?

Do you mix in any starter strip wooden frames to allow the bees to make cells even smaller than the 4.85 waxed pc? 

Thanks,

Walid


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>To which some other student said, 'well that one is a medium, but this one is shallow'. It was cut down.

The PC was cut down?

>I acquired a shallow frame extractor(that sent me on this journey ) and therefore I must have (any other ideas?) shallow honey supers but am going to use medium brood chambers.

I'd pin down exactly how large a frame will fit the extractor. A PC is 6". A medium frame is 6 1/4"

>Can the pc be adjusted with a shim to fix the thin top bar and the frame be cut down to the proper depth to preserve bee space so I could use them as shallows and possibly avoid the bridge comb in honey supers?

They will always build bridge comb. Play all you like. They will still bridge it together.

>Also, I am getting 5 frame deep nuc that I plan to regress as soon as possible. If I use unwaxed pc as a first step should the spacing between the frames be narrower than the 1 3/8?

The combs are already drawn, so it really makes no difference. You CAN space them 1 1/4" and get more frames in, but they won't draw the cells any smaller because they are already drawn.

>Do you mix in any starter strip wooden frames to allow the bees to make cells even smaller than the 4.85 waxed pc?

It's 4.95mm waxed pc. I often mix in empty frames to get drawn small cell. The nice thing is since the PC has no spacers I can space them 1 1/4" without having to cut down the end bars on the frames. The tighter spacing WILL help when they are drawing the comb.


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## ikkybeer (Jan 11, 2006)

Michael,

Thanks for your response.

<<The PC was cut down?>>

It looked like someone took a radial saw blade to it and cut across the bottom to make it a shallow frame height.

<<They will always build bridge comb. Play all you like. They will still bridge it together.>>

I'm just trying to imagine whats going on in the bee's heads. Do they build the bridge comb because it is plastic? If you had alternate pc and wooden frames, would they build it on just the pc or on all?

<<The combs are already drawn, so it really makes no difference. You CAN space them 1 1/4" and get more frames in, but they won't draw the cells any smaller because they are already drawn.>>

So the pc cells are deeper than naturally drawn small cells?


<<It's 4.95mm waxed pc. >>

I thought I read something in an earlier post where you said the inside diameter was 4.85 but if you consider the thickness of the cell walls it is 4.95. I imagine the diameter could be taken either from center of the cell wall or the inside surface.

Walid


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

<<The PC was cut down?>>
>It looked like someone took a radial saw blade to it and cut across the bottom to make it a shallow frame height.

So there were half cells on the bottom where the cells were cut?

<<They will always build bridge comb. Play all you like. They will still bridge it together.>>
>I'm just trying to imagine whats going on in the bee's heads. Do they build the bridge comb because it is plastic?

No, because there is no top bar and bottom bar to demark an end of the comb. So they just keep extending it. The only way to stop that would be to have a 1" top bar and a 3/8" bottom bar. But then you'd lose a lot of comb space and have to cut it down even more.

> If you had alternate pc and wooden frames, would they build it on just the pc or on all?

Not sure what you mean. The burr? They sometimes burr the wooden frames. They always burr the PC. But the wooden frames have a top bar and a bottom bar to delimit the end of the comb.

<<The combs are already drawn, so it really makes no difference. You CAN space them 1 1/4" and get more frames in, but they won't draw the cells any smaller because they are already drawn.>>

>So the pc cells are deeper than naturally drawn small cells?

No. If you wax coat it to get small cells and give it to the bees they still build a slight wall coming up before the cap it. But it's only 1/16" or less. They will draw brood comb the same depth for the size of cell regardless of the spacing.

<<It's 4.95mm waxed pc. >>
>I thought I read something in an earlier post where you said the inside diameter was 4.85 but if you consider the thickness of the cell walls it is 4.95.

Correct. Real comb has a cell wall that is .1mm so if you allow that you have 4.95mm equivlent cell size.

> I imagine the diameter could be taken either from center of the cell wall or the inside surface.

Standard field measurments for cell size are across ten cells including the cell wall. A typical cell wall is .1mm. So 4.9mm comb is 4.8mm inside diameter.


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## ikkybeer (Jan 11, 2006)

Michael,

<<So there were half cells on the bottom where the cells were cut?>>

Ok, I see where you are coming from. The bottom was completely flat and smooth. I assumed it was cut. Maybe it was cut and then melted flat. When I looked at the cells across the bottom, all I noticed was the final row, uneven of course but still intact.

I thought I knew immediately how it was done, but now I'm going to call him.

So that brings up another question. If it was just sawn with half cells open across the bottom, would it matter?

Walid


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Ok, I see where you are coming from. The bottom was completely flat and smooth. I assumed it was cut. Maybe it was cut and then melted flat.

Well real PermaComb (uncut) is beveled on the bottom. So if it was really flat, then I'd guess they did something to the bottom. But if it's angled, then they probably cut the top off. But that would lose the ears. Are you sure it wasn't just a medium? Regualar PermaComb is already 6" instead of 6 1/4"

>So that brings up another question. If it was just sawn with half cells open across the bottom, would it matter?

Probably not. But in theory I'd say they bees are more likely to burr it when there are half finished cells. But they will probably do it anyway.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Ikky,
Look here = 

http://www.bee-l.com/bulletinboard/seets/permacomb.htm

If it was smooth, it was probably just the tabs that were trimmed off like I do to all mine.

Get out a ruler and measure it, it should still be six inches, and still fits a medium box just fine as it is.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

here's a thought
if permacomb is only 6" tall
thereby leaving to much space between the frames
which the bees tend to bridge with drone comb
which you destroy anytime you mess with the hive
wouldn't that tend to make life miserable for the v-mites?









Dave


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>wouldn't that tend to make life miserable for the v-mites?

Another one see's the light!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It is nice when the light comes on.


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## ikkybeer (Jan 11, 2006)

Hi Michael,

I talked with the guy that had the cut down pc. He said he put a fine-toothed blade in a table saw backwards and cut it slowly. He also said he just happened to find a spot where the cut turned out smooth and flat, i.e. he didn't fill in any half-cells or melt it. It sounds encouraging for me and my shallow extractor.

He also said he communicated with John Seets about what he had done. He bought his original pc 15 years ago. He told me he is planning on attempting to cut the pc and glue it inside a frame to avoid the burr comb. 

Walid


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

Dave;

Since the PermaComb is 100% worker cell size and only 6" deep, that forces the bees to build that layer or 2 of drone cells along the bottom. When you pull out a brood frame, this breaks open the drone cells and you can immediately see if there are varroa in those cells. 

Furthermore, if you choose a couple PermaComb frames in the brood boxes and use a saw to cut out maybe a 4 inch square section of the plastic, this will cause the bees to build ONLY drone comb there. Then you can easily use your hive tool to cull out the drone comb and effectively reduce the mite count, since drone comb (as we all know) is a mite-magnet. This in itself does not replace necessary mite treatment when required but will decrease the frequency that treatment is required.

Hope this is helpful. Thanx.


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## ikkybeer (Jan 11, 2006)

Michael,

In looking at the picture of the pc, it looks to me like the alternating rows aren't as interlocked as naturally drawn comb, so you could reasonably get it flat.

Walid


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

> It sounds encouraging for me and my shallow extractor.

Ikky, why don't you just take a piece of PC and try fitting it into you extractor?

>he is planning on attempting to cut the pc and glue it inside a frame to avoid the burr comb. 

It is fun to experiment, I love to do stuff like this, and I have done a few with PC, but in the end you will find out it is unnecessary to alter it other than trimming off the bottom tabs. Trimming will only make it easier to scrape off drone comb when you go to extract.

Letting the bees make a continious vertical sheet of comb as they would naturally do in the wild is what is nice about PC. Once the comb is made verticle travel is much easier for both the workers and the queen.

I cut some up and welded them together to make 12 inch deep frames for a trough hive. That was fun, and I like the unit but another year will tell the tale if it is worth the effort.

Eventuly you will find as MB and I have, that those thing you precieve as problems are really not, all you need are management corrections.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>He told me he is planning on attempting to cut the pc and glue it inside a frame to avoid the burr comb. 

I still think it's a waste of energy. The burr comb is your friend. It will break very nicely right on the burr and the drones will be exposed and you get automatic varroa detection everytime you open the hive, PLUS a little bit of varroa control.


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## ikkybeer (Jan 11, 2006)

Hi Bill,

My extractor holds 5 shallow frames. There are two circular sheets, one up and one down. The upper one has these 5 cutout slots that a shallow frame fits within 1/8th of an inch. The bottom one has cutouts just for the tab. So I am limited to that size frame.

I imagine I could get some metal fabricator to make me a couple of different cutout sheets...hmmm. But anyway thats why cutting down the pc is of interest to me.

Thanks for your input.

Walid


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

MB.

You mentioned using a 'hackler honey punch' when extracting your PC frames. What is it and where did you get it?

Thanks,
Mike


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.plastools.com/honey_punch.htm


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

Anyone have any luck power extracting the permacomb without uncapping?

It so what temps do you need?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Anyone have any luck power extracting the permacomb without uncapping?

>It so what temps do you need?

Temps for what? What do you mean by "without uncapping"? I have never tried it without either uncapping with a cold knife or a honey punch.

I don't believe it's a practical possibility.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Sure it will work. Just tie it to a Texas 
Twister and stand back! Whoa Nellie! Yee Ha!


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

Supposedly it is posssible. Was just asking if anyone had tried. 

The reason I asked about temp is obviously the honey and wax will flow easier if warmed and I guess that it might be a requirement. Eliminating the uncapping step with plastic frames might be an efficiency for a larger scale operation.

Previously I've only been thinking about the fully drawn frames from a brood box perspective. As honey supers how do you think they perform?


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

Supposedly it is posssible. Was just asking if anyone had tried. 

The reason I asked about temp is obviously the honey and wax will flow easier if warmed and I guessed that might be a prerequisite. Eliminating the uncapping step with plastic frames might be an efficiency for a larger scale operation.

Previously I've only been thinking about the fully drawn frames from a brood box perspective. As honey supers how do you think they perform?


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## beegee (Jun 3, 2003)

I just ordered 160 more PC. I have about 90 currently and will eventually go to ALL Permacomb. I lost 2 hives this winter and the mess I'm having to clean up makes me really appreciate PC. I'm also ordering 30 full-deep Honey SuperCells when they start shipping in 6-8 weeks. I like the looks of deep brood frames filled with brood, but will probably go to ALL Mediums with PC as I phase out my deeps.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Anyone have any luck power extracting the permacomb without uncapping?

I'm sure it is possible to do it, I just don't think there is an extractor that is fast enough to do it.


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

MB. Do you use the Hackler punch as your primary means of uncapping PC or just to reach the low spots you'd normally use a capping scratcher on.

Interesting idea. It looks like a spiny paint roller.

Mike


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>MB. Do you use the Hackler punch as your primary means of uncapping PC or just to reach the low spots you'd normally use a capping scratcher on.

I only used it on the low spots. I used a cold bread knife on the high ones.


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

If you can get the extractor to run ~900 RPM, the PC will not have to be manually uncapped. A real time saver. This concept was prototyped some years back but was never put into production. 

One of the issues was the fact that spinning out the honey at those speeds caused small air bubbles (foam) to be trapped in the honey such that it could not be removed. The solution was to have the outside surface that the honey contacted to be moving at the extractor speed so that the honey contacts a stationary surface relative to the frames. In other words, picture a radial frame cage attached to the outside metal of the extactor - all turning at the same speed. This requires more metal and more weight to be spun around. In turn a much LARGER motor is required, a thicker central axle and an actual automobile hydraulic disc brake to stop the spin. Takes to long to stop by inertia.

Sorry, I don't have any temperature data to go with this. However, I agree, the warmer, the better. I currently extract after using the honey punch at around 95 deg. F.

Hope this is somewhat clear.


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