# Honey harvest management



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

during the first round I use the set aside method while the flow is on, during the second and third round when the season is later and the flows not as strong I use fume boards and or blowers depending on the conditions. I run three to four guys in a yard and pull up to 5 32 hive yards every other day, extracting between pulling days. On average we extract 330-350 boxes in a day. I will run two week harvest rounds.

Just wondering how you all manage your honey harvest. The way I manage my harvest works good, gets done quick (sometimes not quick enough), but its a hell of a pace to keep not only for myself but mostly my workers. 
We extract over 100000 lbs in a season. I dont know how to manage my yard work and extracting work differently or more efficiently to enable my operation to handle more than that.

I am interested in hearing all your thoughts


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

We usually send a crew of 3 (a couple times 4 with 2 trucks) and use fume boards and blower. Early (mid July) they take one or two off and put one or two back on, depending on what each colony has/needs. Those guys get anywhere from 2-4 yards of 48 done, depending on how many boxes they take off in each yard. When stripping them in the fall it goes faster, not having to put boxes back on, but this year, because it was such a poor flow and the honey was just about nonexistant in the deeps, they fed some of them. We have a separate crew of three that extracts 5.5 hours a day or until the 500gal tank is full, whichever comes first. If the boxes are full they go home early, if not they stay til the 5.5 hours is up. Most of the year they go home early but especially in a year like this the last boxes are not full at all so it takes longer to fill the tank. Some weeks they work only 3 days, some weeks every day.
We try to have at least 6 people (John, who gets more overtime than he wants, 2 full time, 3 part time) available during extracting season early/mid July to first week of October. We can move people around from pulling honey to extracting so if someone doesn't come to work we still can operate fairly efficiently. Two people can still pull honey and two can still extract. If weather doesn't permit going out to pull any of pulling crew can extract. We try to have two or three days worth sitting in the hot room for rainy days. With SHB on the horizon not sure we can continue _that_ practice. Every year is different depending on how many good colonies and the flow. Last few years honey pulled is anywhere between 200000 - 250000. This year will be on the low side, very poor year for honey production. 
Sheri


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

In California the bees must usually be moved after a honey flow to take advantage of the next possible flow, like from oranges to wild buckwheat, or from sage to alfalfa. So the bees are placed, supers put on, honey ( empty supers? ) pulled, bees moved, re supered, and so on. We often have large apiaries if there are good prospects, 112 drops very common. So all the honey gets pulled first, then move the bees is a priority. I have a man and wife team who do the extracting while I pull and move with a helper. For pulling honey I use about 2 doz fume boards at a time. Not hard to pull 120 deeps by noon, go back, unload, prep for tomorrow. But I am kind of hobby sized, good years 100-120 drums.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Tom G. Laury said:


> But I am kind of hobby sized, good years 100-120 drums.


LOL, you call that a hobby? Bet Uncle doesn't.
Sheri


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

For purposes related to mental health, I like to view my activities as a hobby.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks guys!

Sherri,

your running two crews, pulling and extracting. Your man power is about 6, 3 extraction, 3 pulling. Your pull is mid July to early Oct. pulling 2-4 large yards per day on two honey pulls. This allow you to pull 200000-250000lbs honey in a season.
You have a 500gal honey tank,
Thanks for your input,

What kind of extractor do you use? 
How many yards do you manage at ~48 hives?
Are you palletized?
How large is your extraction facility? Can you elaborate on your honey house set up and your honey house yard?
How many hired men are full time, full time seasonal, causal?
What problems do you usually encounter during a typical season, how do you manage them, and how do you think youd be able to avoid them if your system was set up differently?
What kind of mechanical help do you use within the workings of your operation?

>>and use fume boards and blower. 
>>For pulling honey I use about 2 doz fume boards at a time. Not hard to pull 120 deeps by noon

I use fume boards. Just to make certain, I use BeeGo, Bee Repell. They work very well during the right conditions. As you know they require a few tricks to make them work most efficiently. I will run up to 8 with a blower on the side to quicken a few of the bottom boxes up. I am typically pushing the bees through 3 boxes through an excluder.

How do you guys manage these boards? Any comments on how to use them more efficiently? How much juice do you typically use? What are your thoughts in regards to residues?

Thanks, comments open to everyone


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi Ian
This year we had 52 yards. _Most_ have 36 colonies, some more, a few less.
Yes we use 4way pallets and Swinger forklift. 2 1ton beetrucks, one an '09 Dodge, one an '04(?) Chevy. Inside forklift for our home warehouse and another for another warehouse about 5 miles away. Want to add another Swinger.
We don't have any full time year round employees, except John of course, although there is usually someone who works a few hours a week in the winter as needed. We have two full time seasonal men April 1- Nov 1 or so and then another 3 for extracting, working anywhere from 16.5 to 30 hours a week each. 
I haven't helped pull honey in years so I am a little shaky on the details here. Not sure how many fume boards but I am thinking 6 or 8. We use Honey Robber, smells a _bit_ better than Bee-go. We use excluders also and I am thinking most usually 2 boxes on, but probably 3 for some. They smoke them first to get them moving before putting a fume board on. 
I couldn't tell you how much HR they use, but there is a margin between not enough and driving the girls out the entrance. They try to use 'just enough'. We don't feel residues are an issue. They put the pulled supers on drip pallets then handtruck them into the hotroom near the covered truck dock.
One of the inefficiencies of the pull is that we've never had enough supers for the number of colonies we were running, and not enough man power to work them, so only pull one box at a time so can get around faster and alleviate pressure, hence more trips around. With the numbers we're running, we could use more than 1 crew to get everyone covered in a timely manner. We could also benefit from a larger truck bed or adding a trailer. They often have to come home to load/unload and head to the outyards again. Driving and fuel get higher every year. 
We added a bunch more supers this year but that doesn't help the man power issue. Tough to get good help without keeping them year round. If you add extra help you need more colonies to pay for them, talk about a vicious circle.
We have all the headaches you know about already when managing crews. People calling in sick, people quitting without notice, etc. Interviewing. Scheduling. Payroll. Keeping them busy on rainy days. Lots of people want jobs but fewer want to work. We have a pretty high turn over and could help that by taking on a paid year round guy. We would probably add efficiency if we went to 2 crews. The only way to really eliminate managing man power is to cut way back on numbers. 
We could cut back to 2 for extracting if we got a self load but then there are more technical problems. Our set up is pretty much problem free. 
I'll bet we put more honey through an undersized, ancient, Rube Goldberg extracting set up than anyone else in the business, lol. Our honey house is a sectioned off area in an old existing barn. Area is 80x18? 20?, including about 14x18or20 hot room.
We don't have a self load extractor although we could have justified it by our size several years ago. Before almonds came along we were planning retirement and just didn't want to fork over the cash. We upsized for almonds but still didn't want to add the self load cuz we're STILL gonna retire one of these years . We run one 60 frame Cowen (which the crew stuffs 90 frames into, lol). Handcart from hotroom to box lifter to a Cowen uncapper with frame lifter. The hotroom holds about 2 days worth of extracting and we have an overflow area in the converted barn the honey house is in if they need it. We actually have 3) 500 gal tanks. We pump from the extractor into one of _two_ 500 gallon waterbath heated "dairy cool" tanks, where the honey settles, then pump from the bottom of that tank into _another_ 500 gal unheated bottling tank, then gravity into drums. Extracted supers go back out into the barn to be either put back on the bees or moved to the other warehouse.
It is inefficient with all this pumping, but we are very restricted by space and especially height in this room. Rather than building on we have decided to just put up with the deficiencies in our setup. Reasonable labor expense saves mucho dinero over a new self load and a new honey house, but sometimes the aggravation makes one wonder......
Not sure what you wanted to know about the honey house yard? We have a good sized holding yard which is used to stockpile the bees for semi trucking out to California and unloading in the spring. We try not to keep any bees around while extracting as they gang up at the doors trying to get inside to reclaim some of that sweet stuff and generally make a nuisance of themselves.
Sheri


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks again Sheri,

How many do you send to the almonds?
Is that where you winter all your hives?
How do you feed your hives? Any fall feeding?


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Ian,
Allen Dick is a retired commercial beekeeper in Alberta. He runs the http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ website, which tells a lot about his former operation. At one time, I believe he ran about 4000 colonies. You may be able to get some useful knowledge form him.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

One thing we are often up against, and one thing I avoid at ( nearly ) all costs is robbing. Bad for the bees and I hate trying to work in it. So; if the apiary is reasonably isolated, first thing is all the lids are removed. This has a remarkable effect. In crowded areas, we always start very early in the morning, the boards are on before the bee be gone is really working. Also a 55 gal drum filled with water and burlap sacks is tied down on the back of the truck. Wet sacks are kept on top of all stacks of honey. Hustle it off, tie down and get the heck out of there before they get started. Carniolans don't rob as bad as Italians. 

Also Ian have you seen or tried the vented fume boards with an elbow on top to direct the breeze in to it? I've never had to use one out here but we don't get much wind & cold during honey pulls.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Ian, we sent 5 semis out last year, not sure about this year yet, probably the same. Yes, we send most out there. We will be wintering some nucs indoors this winter, with queens we raised this summer.
We are feeding and putting patties on them now. It was such a poor year they need a lot of feed. We've about gone through one load and need another delivered next week. Will have a lot of that one left for next spring though. The past couple years they didn't need much syrup in fall for winter feed, gave just a little here for Fumagillin and in California to stimulate. This year a lot would starve if they weren't fed before even leaving for California.
When we wintered in Wisconsin we fed what they needed with 3-5Gal top feeders. Now we use the 1 gal division feeders we keep year round in each colony. A bit of a chore with them needing more than just a gal, means more trips around, but the hive top feeders take a couple trips too as we have to put them on then take them off and more trips for syrup as the truck can only carry so much.

Why all the questions about honey harvest. Are you unhappy with part of your process?
Sheri


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

This was the first year that I hired anyone for the extracting season. Boy what a different. I had two guy in extracting and I had another guy working with me in the yards pulling. My normal season by myself is 7-15 to 11-05.This year we started on 7-20 and end 9-11. With two guys pulling we could almost keep up with the guys extracting. We avg. 145 supers a day and took the weekends off. 
We would sit all the honey off of the hive and then blow all the bees out. It would take about 75 min. per. yard. To fast for the bees to rob.
Ron


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Why all the questions about honey harvest. Are you unhappy with part of your process?


Ha, 
No not at all. I have a fairly slick opertion, (not to toot my horn though)
What I have got going now would work for the volume your taking on, but my limitations are with spreading my time through out the rest of the farm. We calve 400 and crop 2500, run with my family, I am pulled in many directions.
Just looking for ideas, currently what I am doing will only sustain 100000lbs unless I go full time beekeeping or incorperate some other thinking.

The right answer is provide more time for beekeeping, 
but I am always looking for other ideas to make the work more efficient.

Also another thing is man power, I think, as you point out in your operation, I am going to have to hire more help, and maybe try to run the honey house and pull together. That and I need more space 

Thanks again,


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>vented fume boards with an elbow on top to direct the breeze in to it?

we are encouraged not to use them, as far as I understand they increase residue in the honey,
any comments on that?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>We would sit all the honey off of the hive and then blow all the bees out. It would take about 75 min. per. yard. To fast for the bees to rob.

Ya that sounds about right


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Never heard of bee go residues in honey. They are popular in windy areas when the repellent isn't working normally.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

I have heard certain packers track, trace bee go residues in honey and dockage occurs if over a certain limit.Evidently they( THE PACKER) have determined what residue would be in "good" use and what a over use level is................... some packers will use anything they can to chisel down the price.... this maybe not a bad thing,depending upon a lot of variables


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## Nicko (Dec 28, 2008)

Fume boards haven't been used since Phenol was banned (carcinogenic). They did try a alternative though from what I have been told it wasn't too good to the bees, it was also banned which lead most beekeepers find alternative methods. I don't recall the chemicals that was trailed as this is all before my time, and I'm just repeating what I remember of past conversations. 

Escape (clearer) boards - that does require you to come back allowing time for the bees to 'escape/clear'. Using blowers to blow remainder of bees out

Standing honey off is popular though does require good conditions other wise stimulates robbing. Using blowers to blow remainder of bees out. 

Bouncing/shaking frames, not as slow as one thinks though is most likely the slowest method,

Australia has different rules and each state is a little different. For example medications are not permitted (illegal) in the West we don't use any chemicals in our hives.

I know of operations bouncing 2 loads of 120 hives each in a days work with 3 people in the field, this also includes nuc work

Standing honey off is most likely the quickest of all. Bees just run out of the supers once they have cleaned up. 4 loads done within a day, 2 teams of 2 two done with in a day with all work complete. (new supers on, nuc work, honey off). Does work faster if you crack the supers the night/afternoon before that way all combs are dry when you stand off and the bees clear in double time.

Each method used has its benefits and I personally use all three depending on circumstances.

Honey extracting and plants differ greatly. If you are thinking about a new plant/equipment I would highly recommend horizontal banked extractor(s) setup, as it reduces man handling of frames. Three plants I've used are basically similar if not the same, extracting anywhere from 400-600 supers within a day. I managed to run the plant by myself and extract 200 supers though it's long day, runs so much smoother with the right man power. Labour is your main on going expense, so if you setup a plant with high efficiencies even if it costs you more initially it will quickly pay itself off. The times we have extracted 600 supers the honey volumes would be around 42-45drums. 10-12 hour day extracting with time for startup/cleanup included. 8frame gear with 8 frames inside if that puts supers/honey volume into perspective.
The plants consisted of deboxer/uncapper/chainfeed/horzontal banked extractor (4 banks of 32 (128frames))/boxing off rack + heat exchanger/centrifuge 

Not sure if that helps
Nick


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## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

Please explain "standing honey off".


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

It means "tipping the honey". You remove the honey and place the boxes on the ground. The supers are "stood up" so the frames don't touch the ground. It's a very fast method during a honey flow. It's trickier if the flow is over. You'll need a blower and work pretty fast through the yard to prevent robbing.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>tipping the honey

you can pull alot of honey with this method,
Needing a good flow is essential 
Some guys here will take off two or so days worth, and then pick them up. Bit risky, but just shows how strong the hives are to collecting nectar even when thier honey sits right beside them


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Ian said:


> >>tipping the honey
> 
> you can pull alot of honey with this method,
> Needing a good flow is essential
> Some guys here will take off two or so days worth, and then pick them up. Bit risky, but just shows how strong the hives are to collecting nectar even when thier honey sits right beside them


Is that what you guys up north call it. That is the way I pull all my honey and have for years. By the time you get all the honey supers pull off the hive and stacked up. You can start stacking the first super you pull on the truck, because all the bees went back home. They are to busy collecting nectar to mess with the supers.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Well I guess if you run those short supers with help, but aren't you picking everything up twice? That would just kill me in the heat with deeps. I move the honey pallets around as we work as the less walking and carrying the better. Are you only pulling one super at a time and leaving it on top or are you setting down several from each as you go? My back is hurting just thinking about setting them all the way down, then bending over and lifting them back up. Maybe there is something I don't see.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

thats about it Tom,
your right, 
reason being fumes are an attractive option

but seting them down is so easy, you just pick them up, stackthem on a pallet and off you go. No worry about bees at all. 

Pull honey about as fast as you can take them off the hive


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I use to use the abandonment or set down method. However, I got frustrated with young bees not knowing where home was and all clumping on a hive or two. This was especially a problem in open field yards. Didn't seem to be a problem in bush yards. I didn't like the amount of bending and twisting of supers I had to do.

Now I use the blower exclusively. Normally two guys will go into a yard with a blower and two stands. We normally pull about 200 supers in 5 - 6 hours -- depending how far the yards are apart, weather conditions and how full the supers are.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

very informative post, I've enjoyed very much reading it, just seeing how them big operation run their set-ups, It takes me 1 day with 2 people helping to remove and extract my honey  , all I have is a 20 frame extractor and one 105 gallon tank, I don't think I will ever try to get more than that, most of my honey goes in making nuc's up during the year, but I really enjoy reading about how the big operations run......


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

we use the fume boards, eight in a yard. Sometimes the bees were reluctant to go. We bought a used bee blower, and finally got it working on the last pull. Wow, with a stand to shoo the bee back to the entrance it worked slick.
The last yard we pulled this year, it was later in the afternoon, and a bit cloudy. i pulled off all the supers, set them on the ground and after that was done, hubby and i blew out the rest of the bees. Since it was later, alot left the supers. Got to say though, it was murder on the back lifting those heavy weights to the ground and then picking them back up. That would be a good way to slip a disc. 
I like the bee blower over the fume boards. Cut the time in half in a yard


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

honeyshack:

I have a hard accepting that a blower is faster than fumeboards and you have managed to cut your time in half in yards. I'm wondering how many fume boards you have when you pull honey. In my experience fume boards are pretty quick. It takes some time to lay them out but they clear the supers pretty fast after that.

Jean-Marc


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

eight fume boards in a yard of 20-26 hives. Two boards were the fiberglass/wood type ...did not like much, the other 6 were tin/wood with black paint. both had flannel underneath.

this year we had one of our coolest summers on record, and cloudiest and rainy. The boards worked on really warm sunny days, but they were few and far between. And, on those days when the sun came and went, or if it cooled off, took forever for the bees to go. Plus the excluder seemed to hold them back on the last box. 

Maybe on a normal, hot summer it would work better, however this year...not so good. The plus with the blower is you do not need the nice hot days to pull honey.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>hard accepting that a blower is faster than fumeboards 

>>Maybe on a normal, hot summer 

I have to agree with honeyshack, 
I find trying using fumeboards without having the blower handy almost impossible.

We set out in the morning to pull honey 8 am, we bring the blower and fumeboards. We will get through a yard of blowing before the fumeboards start to work. If the day works out nicely, we will use fumeboards. If the day clouds over or doesnt improve, the blower is used. 
Our weather here changes just about as fast and unpredictable as a lion tending her cubs. Fume boards are weather condition dependant. I would have a real hard time getting my honey pulled depending solely on the weather to cooperate. It is real nice to have a back up to keep things rolling.
Especially later in the season when the mood of mother nature tends to vary alot,


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Anyone have any experience with using bee escapes? A fellow around here uses them exclusively, using a boom lift. He claims it works really well and quick


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Are we the only ones using both fume boards AND a blower?
By using both it seems you are preparing for any weather. It seems that there are always a few bees in the supers that need blowing out, even on a sunny day and the blower is needed. If the weather is iffy the fumes don't work as well and the blower is needed more. If the weather is cool and cloudy the blower is the primary tool.

Ian, we haven't used escapes. That would necessitate coming back to the yard after the bees have cleared out, wouldn't it? How many does that guy run?
Sheri


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

Darn tough to beat fume boards & a good blower.
We tried the vented fume boards & got tired of hauling the elbows around & what not.
I know of some people that incorporate there blower into the top of the fume board.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Ian, we haven't used escapes. That would necessitate coming back to the yard after the bees have cleared out, wouldn't it? How many does that guy run?

hes about 500-700 hives, himself and another guy, couple in honey house

ya, coming back is a draw back, 
but the way I see it, as long as there was a boom lift involved, hit up 6-8 yards two guys, come back in 1 1/2 days and pick them on to the trailer, two guys. No blowing, no fuming, no lifting, no interaction with bees. Not as physically demanding.

One draw back would be robbing, the boxes would have to be completely sealed
another draw back would be allowing the honey to chill over the period the bees leave the boxes. Once our honey chills here, it seems it hardens within days(exaggerated expression) especially canola and sunflower honey. the two honeys I produce the most of,


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Ian said:


> hes about 500-700 hives, himself and another guy, couple in honey house,


I suppose with that many you could make it work. With more yards you have more drive time and distance. We can only hit every yard once every couple weeks as it is, added driving time would be a killer for us. Not to mention it would take a fortune in duct tape. 
You say there is no lifting, don't they stack them off the colonies? Or do they use the boom for this as well?
Sheri


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ya boom the boxes up, slip ecape in, boom the boxes down,
come back boom them onto the trailer


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

putting boxes on in the spring we use 3 crews with 4 people on each crew. each crew takes about 1000 deeps or 1500 shallows, depending which boxes we are putting on at the time. takes a few days to put boxes on cuz we have about 60,000 honey boxes. for pulling honey we use 2 crews with 4 people on each crew. each crew is sent with 2 tandems and a one ton. we pull honey everyday no matter what the weather is, unless it is raining. each crew has 40 fume boards. a good day we can bring in 80 pallets of honey. we run a day and night crew for extracting with 4 people on each shift. looking at getting an additional extracting system so we dont have to run at night.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

What kind of extractor do you use now?
How do you manage your fume boards, tell me exactly how you use them from start to finnish in a beeyard,


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

we have a cowen 120 autoload with a cook n beals heat exchanger and seperator. we first take all the lids off all our hives to prevent robbing. put a decent ammount of bee-go on the fume board (but not too much dont want it to drip.) if it is hot and there are alot of bees on the top bars of the top super, we dont put the fume board on tight. other wise the bees get this (drunk effect) and wont move well. we give it about 2 inches of overhang for a couple minutes and then close them up tight after the bees are off the top bars. meanwhile we get our drip pallets set out while the pads are at work, only takes a few minutes. take the fume board off and start taking boxes off. move from hive to hive in rotation until you get the hive stripped of its honey boxes. 12 pads can keep a guy pretty busy. we run yards of 72 so we have to move the pads to the other hives when a hive is done.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ya, 12 can keep a guy busy. 
how many boxes are you pulling off a hive?
Are you using excluders?
how often do you recharge the fume boards?

You mentined you are thinking of getting an additional extractor, if you do, how much of an increase in hired help will you have to get in? My thinking is you will not need to double your crew,

How do you load your trucks? Is everything hand trolly>?


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

on a good year we can pull 3 or 4 deeps of a hive or 5 and 6 shallows. depends on what boxes were used on the yard. we dont run excluders. if you do your fume boards right it is unlikely that they will need recharged in a day. sometimes you do but not often. all our honey is set on pallets and loaded on truck with a bobcat.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>> if you do your fume boards right it is unlikely that they will need recharged in a day

When I use the fume boards, I charge before every yard, and sometimes a quick squirt near the end of a yard to get the bees moving again. I Charge my fume boards with a squirt per board per yard. At the end of the day, after 4 yards, each board has gotten approximately 4-6 charges/squirts.
When you say you dont recharge your boards, about how much repellant are you applying off the start?
Thanks for your input!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>all our honey is set on pallets and loaded on truck with a bobcat. 


Thats exactly how I do it also, but I carry around the skidder on the same trailer that I transport the honey on. Makes for a heavy load and hard to get the trailer into some of my yards, ending up loading pallets on the road with 2 of my yards. That creates a hazard.
Thinking the way you do it makes alot of sence, trailer the skidder around separately, and load 2 flat bed trucks. It requires more vehicle, but to me it makes maneuvering in and out of yard alot easier


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

hmm not to sure how much bee-go i use on the pads. its been a couple years since i have put bee-go on pads, that's someone elses job now. i think it maybe takes about 40oz or more for 40 pads.


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