# Grooved vs Wedge



## jwisnewski (Sep 29, 2008)

I've searched the forums but just couldn't find what I'm looking for so I'm throwing it out to hear what people have to say. I've always been a wedge guy because that's the way I learned but I'm curious about the pros and cons of using either wedge top boards or grooved top boards. So let's hear it. BTW my son has already given me all of the wedgy jokes he can think of.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I used wedge with wax foundation and hooks. I use grooved with plastic foundation - it is much quicker to be able to snap foundation into place.


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## cblakely (Sep 6, 2013)

I buy all wedge, because I am mostly foundation-less. The wedge helps me to pin in just a little strip of of wax foundation or if I decide to use a full wax foundation.

I have used a little of the plastic foundation in which case the grooved does make more sense.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I could be wrong but I think the wedge in conjunction with crimped wire foundation eliminates the need to wire the foundation after it is installed. Obviously plastic foundation does not have to be wired.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I could be wrong but I think the wedge in conjunction with crimped wire foundation eliminates the need to wire the foundation after it is installed. Obviously plastic foundation does not have to be wired.


The wedge does nothing to stabilize the center of the foundation panel which still needs cross wiring or at the very least support pins in sidebars.(especially so in deeps) The hooks only keep the foundation from sliding down.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am not sure what you mean by hooks. The bent wire at the top of the foundation is supported by the wedge. The wire supports the comb from sagging when full of honey. Mediums do not need cross wires in my neck of the woods. And if the deeps are used for the brood chamber they do not need cross wires.


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## cdevier (Jul 17, 2010)

I use grooved - and foundationless in all medium boxes - no starter strip.
Charlie

12 hives zone 5


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Acebird says you do not need crosswiring on deep brood combs so take it for what it is worth. I don't like dealing with warped and interfering combs so I crosswire all my wax foundation. If you work many hives strung with vertical wired wax and no crosswiring you will know why.

Incidentally _hooks_ are the name of what Ace refers to as "the bent wire at the top of the foundation"

Wedge top frames are a bit more versatile as has been mentioned though grooved top and bottom are a bit easier to put plastic into.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I find wedgetop a little more useful as for reasons posted. You can use them for foundationless, don't even need to secure the cleat in the groove, just tap it in with a mallet or small hammer and good to go. I haven't any issues using wired/hooked foundation for frames w/o additional support but you do have to be careful as sometimes you get those shifty combs....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I speak as a hobbyist. Don't put the foundation in the frame until you are ready to put the frames in the hive. Straighten the foundation before you put it in the frame if it is warped. Once the bees draw the comb it will not bow. Deep brood comb is stronger because of the cocoons. None of the deep brood frames I got from my nuc supplier had cross supports and he has been keeping bees 40 years or better. Mark, do you cross wire your frames?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The advice not to hang foundation in advance could be rather inconvenient. As far as straightening the panels you will find that often loosens the vertical wires. They are not always well centered in the wax. The vertical wires may appear to have no curve tension as you lift sheets out of the flattened stack they shipped in but as it warms up and hangs relaxed, tensions in the wire take the panel into a curve. Inherent wow in the panel varies from batch to batch of foundation so it is possible to find exceptions to the wisdom of cross wiring.

My advice about advice is to try to assess whether the person giving it has "been there, done that"........ or not.

In the picture you can see some of the vertical wires are almost exposed; if you start trying to straighten that stuff it pops loose and the bees will often chew around it. This batch of frames I experimented with just using two cross wires and a few later showed warping between the larger gaps. I now use all four wires on deeps. Some people also weave the foundation through the wires so they alternate. I may try that on the next batch to see how much extra work it is. Straight hanging foundation is a lot easier to work with.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> The vertical wires may appear to have no curve tension as you lift sheets out of the flattened stack they shipped in but as it warms up and hangs relaxed, tensions in the wire take the panel into a curve.


What ever tensions are in the wire they are not going to be effected by ambient temperature changes. Because the foundation is a rolled product the stresses are in the wax and wax is affected by small temperature changes. The wax may also be affected by moisture changes. Normalize your foundation by working in a warm room, maybe leave it in a warm space prior to straightening it if you even have to. If you work with foundation in a cool room you most certainly will pop the wires.

Sometimes it helps to have other experiences besides beekeeping.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Sometimes it helps to have other experiences besides beekeeping.

Perhaps.

Note that Ace himself has experienced _bowed foundation_ and says that wiring that foundation would be better:




Acebird said:


> I have frames with foundation that were made 3 years ago and my only complaint is that the changes in temperature and moisture cause the foundation to bow. If you wire or string the frames it is less of an issued.


:gh:

(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)




Also, a certain member has repeatedly complained that my quoting only a _portion _of an earlier post is "taking it out of context" and changes the meaning of the original words.  I wish to draw your attention to the Forum Rules regarding quoting:


> *Quoting.* Don't quote back entire messages in your reply. While this board allows you to "quote" (i.e. include) messages when you reply to them, very rarely do you ever need to quote the entire message from a previous post. *Simply quote the relevant portion and cut out the rest.
> *
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/misc.php?do=showrules


Please no more complaints about my quoting. I'm just following _Barry's _instruction! :lookout:


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

I used wedged because I can use it either for foundationless by turning the wedge or with wax foundation.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> What ever tensions are in the wire they are not going to be effected by ambient temperature changes. Because the foundation is a rolled product the stresses are in the wax and wax is affected by small temperature changes. The wax may also be affected by moisture changes. Normalize your foundation by working in a warm room, maybe leave it in a warm space prior to straightening it if you even have to. If you work with foundation in a cool room you most certainly will pop the wires.
> 
> Sometimes it helps to have other experiences besides beekeeping.


Man o Man! The warping tensions are not in the wax; it is in the virtical crimp wires! The wax holds the wires straight but slowly creeps as the wires exert their pent up force. The wax is even softer and flows easier at brood nest temperature than at room temperature. 

You are absolutely correct about the benefit of having other experience, but only if the conclusions reached were accurate.

Back to the wedge topbars. The wedges get enough grip on even unhooked virtical wired or even totally unwired wax foundation to keep the upper part of the sheet lined up but horizontal stability and further vertical support is best provided by horizontal or diagonal cross wiring.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thin foundation and wireing drives me insane. I tried it when I first started beekeeping and quickly thought it was for the birds. Maybe I was doing it wrong. I tried foundationless, but that dosen't work reliably in deeps. 

I find it still slightly painful to fork out the $$ for rite cell. Painfull, until I quickly pop it into assembled frames and never have issues with it in or out of the hive. Then it seems worth twice the price (Don't tell MannLake I said that!) 

Black rite cell is Just my preference Groved bars please. 

Staple, Staple, Staple, Staple, Snap, DONE!










I tried wedge frames and a half sheet of rite cell. It worked, but the time it took to fiddle fart around to install it, it wasn't worth the savings of being able to stretch my rite cell twice as far. But I do 1000+ frames a year-so someone with less frames to make might want to try it. Someone called this my 'Yin and Yang' frame. LOL. True. My thoughts were when making them, the bees would use the 5.4 cells above for mostly honey storage and close to 4.9 foundationless below for brood. But found they frequently made very large cells below the brake of foundation. Placement in the hive was very critical to get small cell natural built.










(If you are interested in making these Yin and Yang frames, let me know. I can tell you exactly how I installed them to be secure.)

If you look at the two photos above, you can see in the natural comb they leave a space on the bottom two corners for access. So when I get my foundation, I put about 10 sheets on the miter saw and cut off the corners. Only takes a few minutes to do a whole case. Gives the queen easy access everywhere. Afer using followerboards and seeing how reluctant bees are to cross a solid barrier, I started doing this. I feel it makes a difference.











https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Lauri, I have to agree with the labor savings of plastic. Black too, as it makes it much easier for my old eyes to spot eggs. I find with these bees and our cool weather that plastic foundation is not good to put in along with wax as the bees definitely do a lot of cogitating before they reluctantly draw it out and it is second season before the ends and corners get drawn to full depth. Whole boxes of it no problem; no choice, no dithering I guess.

I have never really tried to highspeed my frame making but after the novelty wears off I sure found I was coming to resent to time to do wired wax frames. A persons attitude sure is different depending on whether they are doing things to kill time or save time!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Well said Crofter, I've been busy these last few years to get the majority of my equipment built while I still am enthusiastic. Once it becomes a chore with pressure, it's not as enjoyable. I know from personal experience of a life time of trying to do things way beyond a single person's ability..but try to do them anyway. Enthusiasm is a priceless motivator.

Ask me how hard it is to climb a cliff, and how hard it is to climb that same cliff when an elk is bulging on top during archery season.

I do enjoy woodworking though. It's the reason I got into bees in the first place. But I like to be efficient and the frames shown above work well for me. Quality, reliability and performance.

Time consuming experiments and custom projects are for the winter months


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## jwisnewski (Sep 29, 2008)

wow got a lot more information than I thought I would. Unless I missed it I don't think we heard from anyone that uses grooved frames with a full sheet of wax. I'm not sure how it would stay up unless you cross-wired and used melted wax in the groove. Speaking of which I tried the melted wax one winter because I was having a problem with blowouts in the center of the top of the foundation. I used old comb, cappings and bad sheets that I had that I melted down and then stuck the top of the foundation to the wedge. It takes some time when making up frames and I could never make that crazy tool the supply houses sell for doing just that work. The foundation stayed up but the ladies seemed to shy away from the frames with the melted wax. Can't figure out why - no chemicals no nothing just beeswax.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Heat the edge of the sheet so you can fold over about an eighth of an inch of the sheet and tuck the doubled edge into the groove of the top bar; the double thickness will nearly fill the groove, then take an old paintbrush and some molten beeswax and dab some wax along both sides of the foundation. (thanks Joseph Clemens) Somewhere in a clipping from an old book it was shown to use very fine strips of wood (toothpick size) dipped in molten beeswax, lifted out with tweezers and pressed against the foundation. I think the strips were rather vertical and in lieu of wiring. Might have been a hundred years old but struck my fancy.

Sometimes nice to have comb without too much wire if you are going to cut out queen cells or do cut cell but it sure is delicate at first drawing if you have no support.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Talking about queen cells, here are a couple frames I made this year. Knowing how bees will sometimes prefer to make queen cells on the edges of natural comb, I thought I'd try this configuration with my grafts. I never got the chance to try it however..too late in the season. But heres the frame:









Here is another frame I did use, but it was after the flow-so no foundation was drawn out.










I had problems with well fed finisher hives making burr comb over capped queen cells. In order to avoid this, I was messing around with frame arrangements of the cell placement. 
I concluded though, my queenless starter and finisher hive did a perfect job of both starting and finishing queen cells with no messy comb issues.










Ripe queen cells with no messy comb! I like it!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I use only grooved top bar Hoffman frames and wired wax foundation. I cross wire using the two center holes...two horizontal wires. I find wedges and nails to be a PITA. Timely to install, broken wedges when re-installing. The grooves are easily cleaned with the tool designed for the job...available from any bee supply catalog. Dip top bar in hot water...scrape wax from groove. 

The foundation is installed with hot wax using the hot wax tool from any bee supply catalog. I will never nail wedges again!

Wood is good, wax is best.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I don't think we heard from anyone that uses grooved frames with a full sheet of wax

I have for 40 years used only grooved top and bottom bars with vertical wired foundation and a full set of horizontal wires. I find wedge topbars a nuisance to assemble and a nuisance to renovate. Here are before uncapping and after uncapping pictures of an 11 1/4" deep frame assembled as thus.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Michael and odfrank, have you had any wired foundation that was a bit tight top to bottom with grooved frames? I have hit some batches that seemed to have wires projecting enough so that the foundation wanted to bulge to one side or the other. Had to nip the ends of the wires to make it hang loose! No biggy but would make the foundation more prone to going wonky I think.


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## Spinner (Jun 2, 2013)

I used to rely on wedge frames but switched 100% to slotted-top (groove) frames. I do not cross wire. The foundation slips in, and into the hive body. I use these on deep and medium frames. My experience is the less wire, the better when it comes to brood laying - the queen rarely lays eggs on top of wires.

I have had one frame where the foundation didn't behave and buckled, but I think it was because of my original installation.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>have you had any wired foundation that was a bit tight top to bottom with grooved frames?

Yes. Sometimes the wires are too long, or I am renovating a solid bottom bar frame with the wrong foundation. And sometimes I get free foundation with hooks that I snip off. And vertical wired small cell foundation only comes with hooks that I snip off.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yes crofter, of course. But, that foundation was made oversize. I've got hundreds of pounds like that and returned it to Dadant.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jwisnewski said:


> Unless I missed it I don't think we heard from anyone that uses grooved frames with a full sheet of wax.


In Michael Bush's book he states he prefers groove top bars. Apparently there is a plastic insert that wedges the foundation in the groove.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Crofter. I used grooved only for a bit. Most batches I had to snip wires. You can tell the wires typically get longer from one end to the other. I used an X of mono but found it warped too much or fell out anyway, unwired foundation anyways.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Some batches of wired foundation seem to have very little bend tied up in the wire and might even stay straight if not cross wired. Others will take near a half inch wow in a deep. I have to think that users who got away without cross wiring maybe just got lucky. One warped foundation can mess up itself and the frame on either side of it. No fun when the bees build their own panel of comb in the extra space created by a wonky frame.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> In Michael Bush's book he states he prefers groove top bars. Apparently there is a plastic insert that wedges the foundation in the groove.


I thought Michael Bush was foundationless. I think he has experimented with different things in the past but really grooved top bars are designed mainly for plastic foundation. so would be curious to see the context of that info. Haven't heard of the plastic insert device. There are things that a person can jerry rig on a frame or two for some experiment but unless the method is quick, easy, and foulproof it is not going to be seriously considered if you have many hives.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

crofter said:


> I thought Michael Bush was foundationless. I think he has experimented with different things in the past but really grooved top bars are designed mainly for plastic foundation. so would be curious to see the context of that info. Haven't heard of the plastic insert device. There are things that a person can jerry rig on a frame or two for some experiment but unless the method is quick, easy, and foulproof it is not going to be seriously considered if you have many hives.


What a frame is designed for and what they are used for are two different things. I switch to grooved frames when I go without foundation also. It has a ready made place to put the starter strips. I also use them with plastic foundation. I use wedge top bars with wax foundation and do not find them quick easy or foolproof. More often than not wax foundation causes problems. is chewed out by the bees and is a complete waste of money. hince the going to plastic. It has problems of it's own. in fact I have not seen anything foolproof in beekeeping yet.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> I thought Michael Bush was foundationless.


He is but he has also been beekeeping for a long time so it is unlikely that there isn't much he hasn't done. I can't find the reference on his site and I am not going to copy the words out of his book.
Anyway if you are not going to use a wedge top bar with hooked wire foundation then you should be using a grooved bottom bar so the wire can actually support the comb.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Anyway if you are not going to use a wedge top bar with hooked wire foundation then you should be using a grooved bottom bar so the wire can actually support the comb.


IMO, having the wires support the foundation at the bottom is asking for trouble...bowed foundation and combs that break away from the top bar. 

The hot wax tube sold by Kelley and others is what you should use to install wax foundation in grooved top bars. Buy hookless, wired foundation.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> The hot wax tube sold by Kelley and others is what you should use to install wax foundation in grooved top bars. Buy hookless, wired foundation.


Maybe that is what MB was referring to.

The thing is if there is no hooks supported by wood then aren't the wires just going to sag until they hit the bottom of the groove in the bottom bar?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Maybe that is what MB was referring to.
> 
> The thing is if there is no hooks supported by wood then aren't the wires just going to sag until they hit the bottom of the groove in the bottom bar?


So did you misspeak about the plastic insert?

Taut and well embedded cross wiring in all the holes will do a better job of holding the foundation in place than having it sit unaligned on the bottom bar. It depends a lot on the particular foundation, how naturally straight it is, how hot it is and how ready to go to work the bees are. If conditions are right they will do the permanent attachment well in less than a day I think.

The dont have any technology to straigten warped foundation but they do have work-a-round solutions you wont be happy with!

Will have to try that wax tube sometime!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> So did you misspeak about the plastic insert?


Page 70 "... plastic or wax tube fasteners"
He also mentions a split top bar that is usually used for comb honey. The foundation is dropped down onto a solid bottom bar with no fasteners. You would not cross wire a frame for comb honey.



> The dont have any technology to straigten warped foundation


You can straighten it pretty easily even after it is in the frame.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird, do you know what a "wax tube fastener" is? 

I have never heard of a plastic insert...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> Acebird, do you know what a "wax tube fastener" is?
> 
> I have never heard of a plastic insert...


No, do you have a photo that I could see one.

Hey maybe I misunderstood what he wrote. Now that I read it again he is talking about plastic foundation. So what is a wax tube fastener?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> No, do you have a photo that I could see one.
> 
> Hey maybe I misunderstood what he wrote. Now that I read it again he is talking about plastic foundation. So what is a wax tube fastener?


Do your own search..... Good grief!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

A "wax tube fastener" ....








Image linked from this Kelley page: http://www.kelleybees.com/Shop/43/H...ion-Accessories/4065/Copper-Wax-Tube-Fastener

It doesn't go _into _the frame/foundation. It is a _tool _used to add wax when securing foundation to the frame.

:gh:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks Rader I just watched a video.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Page 70 "... plastic or wax tube fasteners"
> He also mentions a split top bar that is usually used for comb honey. The foundation is dropped down onto a solid bottom bar with no fasteners. You would not cross wire a frame for comb honey
> 
> 
> ...


It was the bees I was referring to that had not the technology to straighten curved foundation... 

You cannot straighten it quite easily even if you see it(at least vertical embedded wire) without over bending in opposite direction and that process will knock much of the wires loose. It may well not occur till after you have placed it in the hive and warms up. The bees *will* chew around loose or poorly embedded wire.

If the cross wires are tight AND on the outside of the incipient curve they will hold it close enough to lined up. If it is a bad batch with much inherent curve and you embed crosswires on the inside of the curve the foundation will pull out of the cross wires. That is why some folks place the foundation and the wires so they alternate sides.

You seem to be arguing about something you have never done properly yourself, but maybe that is just my misbegotten impression.

Embedder below. notice 9 pressure fingers plus electrical contacts either end to evenly melt cross wires into wax.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> You cannot straighten it quite easily even if you see it(at least vertical embedded wire) without over bending in opposite direction and that process will knock much of the wires loose.


I have done it to many frames with great success.

What are you showing in the photo? Are you passing current through the wire to inbed them? This will elongate the wire which will shrink when the wire hits the wax. Doing this from one side I would expect the foundation to curl immediately if we are talking about the vertical wires.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Lauri said:


> Enthusiasm is a priceless motivator.
> 
> Ask me how hard it is to climb a cliff, and how hard it is to climb that same cliff when an elk is bulging on top during archery season.


Now that is a quote to remember!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Maybe do a search on embedding wire in wax foundation. Actually you have dismissed or misinterpreted most of what has passed here so as far as I am concerned you are on your own.

Unless someone has been badly injured I have not spoon fed any beyond about a year old.

Lauri, do as you see fit with this post!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I have done a search but it is difficult to find procedures for industrial equipment There is a lot of primitive foundation making equipment because it is used by hobbyist that post to You tube. Not a lot of video for industrial equipment though.

Judging from what I see in the foundation that I have the wire is put in after the wax is milled yet the wax manages to get on top of the wire. Oh and BTW it is three months old and flat as a pancake. It has already gone through a lot of temperature changes in my office.

In my search I came across a site that said both vertical wire and horizontal wire on the same frame is a bad idea. Do one or the other. Bees don't like the second wire and try to remove it leaving holes in the foundation. Just because I enjoy machinery if anyone has any video of how the hooked wires are inserted into foundation I would like to see it.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> Do your own search..... Good grief!


So you don't know either.

It is a tool for pouring wax into the groove after the wax foundation is placed in it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y, if your interpretation of the _BeeCurious _comment you quoted in your post above was that he didn't know what the function of a "_wax tube fastener_" was, how do you explain this post he made way back in *April 2013*? :scratch:



BeeCurious said:


> The advantage of using the PF frames is that poorly drawn comb can be scraped off and the frame returned directly to the hive.
> 
> Otherwise, grooved top and bottom bars are what I use. *A wax tube fastener is handy for attaching starter strips if you go that route.*


:gh:


(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread, with timestamps!)


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I usually use PVA to glue three ice cream sticks in the groove of the top bar. Also works with strips of foundation. I also use two vertical bamboo skewers instead of wiring. Works great!

See here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290702-No-more-wiring-frames-for-me


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Never saw a post in April So why would I explain it. I was referring to the post he made here. Obviously intended to be sarcastic with no interest in being informative or contributing to the purpose of this conversation.

His audience is not limited to only Ace.

If he has such a negative opinion of sharing information why is he here? To get spoon fed?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> His audience is not limited to only Ace.


People forget that.

Anyway the confusion I had when reading MB book is all cleared up and that only happens because of a forum not reading a book. You just have to be able to handle embarrassment and ridicule from time to time.

Daniel, never worry about one individual calming up on a forum the answer will come if you are persistent.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Obviously intended to be sarcastic with no interest in being informative or contributing to the purpose of this conversation.


Oh boy .... is this going to be one of _THOSE _threads? :lookout: 

Hard to say whether this earlier DY comment was intended to be _sarcastic _or not, but if it is not sarcasm, it is rather alarming: 



Daniel Y said:


> Like those here that think if they can insult you you it makes them right. People do some strange things. and many follow right along. It's how we end up with politicians being chosen. *Very few people are genuinely intelligent. It takes to much effort.*


:gh:


(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)



Anyone remember the _Frankenstorm _thread?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader, he said it in another thread. Which has nothing to do with this one.
You have some useful skills but you are not using them in a productive manner. Try to support a thread more instead of tearing people up.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

MattDavey, 
I do the same..corn dog sticks, just shoved into the grove. No glue necessary. You don't even have to trim them.I get them at my local Cash and Carry wholesale food supply.
Cut out your honeycomb in nice even squares:


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

DY

Handing a top contributer a photo would have been more akin to "spoon feeding".

Yes, the storm thread.... Some astronomy was spoon fed to someone if I remember correctly.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> he said it in another thread. Which has nothing to do with this one.
> Try to support a thread more 

I believe there is _significant _value in learning from older threads. Sometimes that learning may be from a thread that starts out on a _different _subject. There is a lot to be learned from those with _actual experience_!  

More from an older related thread on frame components:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?265086-


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Rader, he said it in another thread. Which has nothing to do with this one.
> You have some useful skills but you are not using them in a productive manner. Try to support a thread more instead of tearing people up.


Sheesh, and I though I was the moderator. 

Let's keep the thread on topic here folks. Keep scolding and negative opinions at least somewhat suppressed please.


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## imthegrumpyone (Jun 29, 2013)

Grow up people, your beginning to act like children again. I like many others read Bee Source several times a day, every day for informative information, we know everyone can't be right. Some people know, some people don't, but one way or the other we learn, and hopefully we learn who to take at face value. I being a new, and have every thing to learn, get a little tired of the rock throwing, if I don't know, I don't post, and I don't belittle anyone for not knowing. Besides, it appears the bee's know way more than us. My .02


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Lauri said:


> MattDavey,
> I do the same..corn dog sticks, just shoved into the grove. No glue necessary.


I've found thicker sticks cause the bees to create three sections of comb. Often each section has different size cells, especially if you use ice cream sticks for comb guides. The thin skewers allow a consistent cell size across the frame.

I'll have to try jamming the skewers beside the foundation. It definitely would be tight enough to hold. I just need to get the frames with the bottom groove next time!

Here's an example with the skewers:


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

thanks for beautiful pictures and great ideas -- we are in a chilly period many days so I haven't been able to look at a frame for a week or two.. Amazing how much I miss it -- and enjoy it in season. I guess I'll have to pull a honey frame out of the freezer soon and host a feast.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Apparently there is a plastic insert that wedges the foundation in the groove. 

I know nothing about plastic inserts, but you can insert plastic foundation by just popping it into a grooved top bar.

>>I thought Michael Bush was foundationless.
>...he has also been beekeeping for a long time so it is unlikely that there isn't much he hasn't done.

Not much... I would prefer grooved as long as I have foundation that will work with it. I prefer the wax tube fastener to nailing any day of the week. But anymore, I prefer foundationless to foundation.

>The hot wax tube sold by Kelley and others is what you should use to install wax foundation in grooved top bars. Buy hookless, wired foundation. 

And there is the secret. If it has hooks it really doesn't work well unless you have the wedge top bar and often won't fit unless you also have a split bottom bar. Both the wedge top bar and the split bottom bar are, in my opinion, poor designs but the frame design needs to match the foundation design and dimensions. The only supplier who seems to provide really good information on what foundation goes well with what frame is Walter T. Kelley. They also offer the widest variety of sizes, shapes, thicknesses and cell sizes such as 7/11, drone, 4.9mm etc.


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## Scott J. (Feb 6, 2007)

I like grooved topbar and a solid bottom. I wire and then use a battery charger to heat the wires to inbed the foundation. I have never used a wax tube to hold the foundation in place. I operate around a 150 hives. In all the years I can think of maybe a half dozen frames that I did not get the foundation in the top groove that fell out. The wire closest to the topbar is about an inch away and has the strength to hold the foundation in the top groove. I use western bees frames.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> And there is the secret. If it has hooks it really doesn't work well unless you have the wedge top bar and often won't fit unless you also have a split bottom bar.


What is the point of vertical wires if there are no hooks?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>What is the point of vertical wires if there are no hooks?

Keeps the foundation from bowing and sagging. More reinforcement when extracting. I have for decades used vertical wired foundation and horizontal wires.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

odfrank said:


> >What is the point of vertical wires if there are no hooks?
> 
> Keeps the foundation from bowing and sagging. More reinforcement when extracting.


Unless the vertical wire comes in contact with the bottom bar (which could not be split) it will not support much. If you are putting horizontal wires in tension I don't see where the vertical wires would be doing anything except in a tangential extractor.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> don't see where the vertical wires would be doing anything
> Snip


I believe it was mentioned that the wires give support to the wax to avoid sagging until it's drawn out....


Rebar wouldn't need to span an entire concrete structure to provide support to the middle.... Would it?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

You ask a question, then argue with the answer!  :lpf::gh:

Have you ever heard of fiber-reinforced concrete? http://www.fibermesh.com/

How about fiberglass fabric embedded in resin? http://www.fibreglast.com/category/Fiberglass_Fabric

In both of those applications the [originally] flexible fibers are not installed under tension, yet provide reinforcement.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Unless the vertical wire comes in contact with the bottom bar *(which could not be split) 
*
Divided and split bottom bars are commonplace.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> Rebar wouldn't need to span an entire concrete structure to provide support to the middle.... Would it?


Concrete has different properties than wax. Concrete is unaffected by ambient temperatures. If it weren't for warm temperatures wax would need no support at all. It is quite strong at 40 degrees and quite limp at 110. Vertical wires not attached to the top bar would not give much support to comb in warm temperatures unless the wire hit the bottom bar.

Rebar is generally used in concrete to give it tensile and shear properties.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Concrete is unaffected by ambient temperatures. 

Hmmm ...









_Typical example of concrete deteriorated from freeze thaw actions. _

More at this page titled: "*Freeze - Thaw Deterioration of Concrete*

http://www.concrete-experts.com/pages/ft.htm

:gh:


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Vertical wires not attached to the top bar would not give much support to comb in warm temperatures unless the wire hit the bottom bar.


Of course the vertical wires are attached at the top...... 

As Bush suggested, with wax, applied with a "wax tube fastener". 

I use PF-120 (more and more all the time) and horizontally wired frames (some of which are narrow). At times I have used my wax tube fastener to attach starter strips but I got away from using them. Even with two horizontal wires I sometimes "tab" the foundation into the top bar groves with the WTF, especially if temperatures are elevated. I buy deep sheets of non-wired small cell foundation and cut them in half (horizontally). The bees are free to construct whatever they wish in the open area at the bottom.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Of course the vertical wires are attached at the top...

I never attach the wires at the top. I use GBB and GTB, VW foundation no hooks, with four horizontal wires electrically embedded. I just pop in the foundation and embed. Thousands of frames in several depths for over 40 years and it has always worked like a charm. And I am not even an engineer!!!

I don't like the wedge topbar, especially when it comes time to renovate them.

I find frame wiring to be very meditative and soothing. Embedding also.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

odfrank said:


> Thousands of frames in several depths for over 40 years and it has always worked like a charm.


The discussion is not whether it works. The discussion is whether both wires are needed if the vertical wires have hooks. If the vertical wires have no hooks will it work without the horizontal wires? It doesn't take 40 years and thousands of frames to determine it works with hooks and no horizontal wires whether you are an engineer or not.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> The discussion is whether both wires are needed if the vertical wires have hooks. 


This discussion started when Ace challenged _Michael Bush's_ comment in post #62 that:



Michael Bush said:


> If it has hooks *it really doesn't work well *unless you have the wedge top bar and often won't fit unless you also have a split bottom bar.


with this:


Acebird said:


> What is the point of vertical wires if there are no hooks?


Ollie provided an answer backed by 40 years of his experience. Now Ace says:


> The discussion is *not *whether it works.


 :scratch:

Really?

:ws:

:gh:


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

A discussion with Ace reminds me of the the quote:

"Don't mud wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig enjoys it."


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Why woudl you assume that Ace is the pig. I tend to see Graham the one constantly dredging up irrelevant issues. Now I agree that Ace's opinion is a bit off for me at times to. but at least they are generally on topic And not intended to dig the mud pit. Grahams are a backhoe. Made for no other reason than to spread discourse. by the way folks that is what a troll is. Not someone that constantly posts opinions you disagree with. they are person that posts for no other reason than to stir others up. The best trolls have gotten good at maintaining a smattering of relevant and seemingly helpful posts. but if you really look they have little content or only reveal a shallow depth of involvement at best. Otherwise they tend to know what everyone has ever said at any time. that is because they live to know that stuff. it is ammo.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

:lpf:  :lookout:










:ws:










What more can I say .... ... ... some _Beesource _Sunday mornings just can't be beat! 


:gh:

P.S. I really do have a small backhoe. Its a great tool!
.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> The discussion is not whether it works. The discussion is whether both wires are needed if the vertical wires have hooks. If the vertical wires have no hooks will it work without the horizontal wires? It doesn't take 40 years and thousands of frames to determine it works with hooks and no horizontal wires whether you are an engineer or not.


The horizontal wires are for keeping the foundation straight...as there is a natural curve created by the vertical wires. Those vertical wires came off a roll and retain the curve. The horizontal wires also add strength to the comb for support during extraction. They offer little in vertical support. 

The crimped wires offer vertical support when the foundation is being drawn, and combined with horizontal wires, lateral support when extracting. The crimp wires don't need hooks to be effective. They add vertical support when embedded in a grooved top bar with hot wax, which holds the wires quite well.

Really does work Ace, one complimenting the other...believe it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Everything in my engineering books say that the horizontal wires offer vertical support and the vertical wires offer next to nothing when there are no hooks. But hey, beekeepers know best so lets just run with the myth.

Although, some beekeeper use no wires at all. How is that even possible?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Everything in my engineering books say that ....


Did your _engineering books_ discuss wax properties in cold weather? :scratch:


Acebird said:


> If it weren't for warm temperatures wax would need no support at all. [HIGHLIGHT] It is quite strong at 40 degrees [/HIGHLIGHT] and quite limp at 110.


Here's what Brushy Mountain Bee Farm has to say about shipping wax [foundation] in the cold ...


> *Please Note:* [HIGHLIGHT] Wax becomes very brittle in cold weather. [/HIGHLIGHT] We prefer not to ship when temperatures are below 40°F, but if you need wax we will be glad to ship at your risk.​
> http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Foundation/departments/27/



:gh:


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> The horizontal wires are for keeping the foundation straight...as there is a natural curve created by the vertical wires. Those vertical wires came off a roll and retain the curve. The horizontal wires also add strength to the comb for support during extraction. They offer little in vertical support.
> 
> The crimped wires offer vertical support when the foundation is being drawn, and combined with horizontal wires, lateral support when extracting. The crimp wires don't need hooks to be effective. They add vertical support when embedded in a grooved top bar with hot wax, which holds the wires quite well.
> 
> Really does work Ace, one complimenting the other...believe it.


Michael nails the key to the issue of why it is advised to crosswire vertical wired foundation (hooked or not, no diff.) The constrained curve in the vertical wires is often unnoticeable when it has been stacked and flattened in packaging. After hanging in the frame the curve tension relaxes by slowly cupping the wax foundation. The crosswiring gives lateral support which helps restrain the cupping effect. Even if the drawn out comb appears to be outwardly reasonably plumb and even, the midrib can be off center and make some cells unused for brood.

I try to feel out and determine which way and how much inherent curve is in the vertical wires and then place the foundation or the crosswires accordingly to reduce curving. Fussy? yes, but I hate dealing with or even looking at wonky combs!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Here's what Brushy Mountain Bee Farm has to say about shipping wax [foundation] in the cold ...


Rader you are mixing properties. The crimped music wire in the frames is far more brittle than bailing wire yet almost twice the strength. It is quite typical for a material to gain strength as it gets more brittle.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Music Wire? :scratch: "Bailing" wire? :scratch: I'm the one mixing properties? :scratch: 
:s :s

Brushy Mountain has the same restrictive cold weather shipping policy for wax foundation _without _any wires.

:gh:

If it "gains strength" as *you *say, why is there a restrictive cold weather shipping policy?




:digging:
How's the view from the bottom of that hole?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> After hanging in the frame the curve tension relaxes by slowly cupping the wax foundation.


This is beekeeper intuition.
When I was developing my extractor this frame was stored in my basement for almost 9 months in a box hanging like it would in a hive. I don't know how much straighter that foundation could be. You might be able to detect a slight bow between vertical wires in the opposite direction to what you speak. This could only be stresses in the wax cause from milling the wax. There are no horizontal wires.
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Extractor/ExtractorParts002.jpg


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> This is beekeeper intuition.
> When I was developing my extractor ...

Here is more on that extractor development technique ....

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...nally-extracted-our-honey&highlight=extractor




... beekeeper intuition ...
:gh:


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>It is quite typical for a material to gain strength as it gets more brittle.

This is another classic "Aceism" that in his biography goes in "Acecisms" chapter along with the five gallon statement. Ace, you have clearly never handled brittle foundation.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Rader you are mixing properties. The crimped music wire in the frames is far more brittle than bailing wire yet almost twice the strength. It is quite typical for a material to gain strength as it gets more brittle.


The crimped wire is most definitely NOT anywhere near the characteristics of what is known to be music wire.

I think I have never seen such "wild" attempts to support ridiculous extrapolation! The one factual morsel trotted out has no bearing here.

The carbon content or heat treat condition of the embedded wire sure as Hades has nothing to do with shipping wax foundation in cold weather.

These forums sure can be an interesting study in human nature!



Edit; Odfrank, I wasn't aware that "wild extrapolation" was actually personally trademarked but it is so special that I think it could well be!


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Free Range Extrapolation seems like another suitable term...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> The crimped wire is most definitely NOT anywhere near the characteristics of what is known to be music wire.


Both are high carbon wire that is stronger than low carbon wire and more brittle. It is an example. Wax is stronger at cooler temperatures than warmer temperatures. That is why you put wire in it to support it in the first place.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Odfrank, I wasn't aware that "wild extrapolation" was actually personally trademarked but it is so special that I think it could well be!

The term that Ollie used was actually first developed and used by _Barry_.  See post #189 of this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275774-quot-treatment-treadmill-quot/page10

I'm not sure whether _Barry _(or anyone else) has applied for a trademark. :lookout:



:gh:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> The crimped music wire in the frames


Ace, it's actually barbed wire. If you look at it under a microscope, there are tiny little barbs, or bumps on the wire. FYI


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I tension my cross wires to approximately a middle C tone; It just gives a nice twang! 

I have recently purchased a crosswire crimping tool too, from Mann Lake: Once I heat embed that crimped middle "C" taut crosswire it latches onto the barbs of the vertical wires and that foundation ain't going nowhere! From fourty below to a hundred and ten in the shade the support wire and the wax is one and indivisible!:banana:

Remember, you read it on the internet so it must be true.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> Ace, it's actually barbed wire. If you look at it under a microscope, there are tiny little barbs, or bumps on the wire. FYI


Maybe it is corroded.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Could be, but then it would make it corroded barbed wire.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Can you take a picture of that wire under the scope?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Sure.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Maybe it is corroded.


Anyone want to venture an opinion as to whether of not these "_corroded_" frame wires that _Barry _has are *still *capable of "_pulling a car_"? :s :lookout:



Acebird said:


> The wires aren't going to break they are high carbon steel. With 1/2 doz. wires you could pull your car with them.



:digging:


I wonder if that is in Ace's _engineering books_ also?

:gh:


(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> Sure.


You're wacked Barry. That is low carbon wire.


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