# Genetic Diversity & Bee Disease



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

interesting Joe,
I'm in my third year of beekeeping and I think I live in a "relatively remote location"
meaning there's no big beekeepers or big agricultural operations around and I'm adjacent to a large tract of woodland (>20,000 acres)
I've tried to get stock from several sources that have good histories
I have some SMR bees
I have some from iddee that have lived many years without treatment
I have some out of abandoned buildings
some from fat beeman (russians)
I also have some commercial Italians from Brushy Mountain
they're mating with whatever is in the woods, although I suspect I'm throwing most of the drones in the air
I'm trying to establish a nice little eco-zone here and I value your opinion
wouldn't you consider this a pretty good start?
comments/good ideas for going forward?

Dave


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Hello Dave,

That’s a great start!

Going forward, I would recommend to also focus local genetics and establish an out yard separate from the others to place ‘only local swarms caught‘. 

Keep catching local and bringing in local bees to this yard.
Establish the practice of assessing these local ferals till Sept and destroy the bottom performers then and combine them into others. From this yard the following season, select the top performer and move it to a yard where you will place only these top performers.
So you have an assessment yard, and another yard for your best stock. From this method, I managed to establish a bee yard that is self sustainable and productive. A thriving population of ferals that is resistant to mites will throw an abundance of swarms, and where there are swarms, there is a higher potential for resistant genetics.

I am coming to the belief that as far as mites are concerned, the mite population in a colony is very much a reflection of the surrounding population of bee colonies. This makes assessment at the colony level very difficult, and mite pressures not necessarily a reflection of the colonies resistance level. When top performers are identified and placed in a separate yard with the best of the best, the influx of varroa from susceptible colonies is lessened, and the colony relieved of this outside influence can begin to perform as it should.

I have attempted to one of my best daughter colonies from one of my top performers in my assessment yard (which can occasionally have high mite pressures), and they succumbed to mites. But in the top yard about 2 miles away where the mother line is from, I have yet to loose a colony to mites. 

I don’t think it’s the isolation, but the ’association’ that is key, keep the best with the best as the population of colonies is also a part of that colony. Drifting between colonies has been found to occur in colonies hundreds of yards away, in some cases, 30% of the foragers in a colony were found to be from other colonies. 

My friend Erik Osterling from Sweden describes what he calls a ’virus bomb’ where a breeding population of honeybees; by their genetic deficiencies, treatments used as well as association contribute to a rise in pest or disease in this population, until a point is reached that brings down large numbers of colonies in one sweep. 

As I mentioned earlier, where there are swarms there are likely resistant genetics. My immediate area where I live actually lagged behind in the feral recovery. But by bringing in ferals and assessing them, letting some bee logs sit and swarm out year after year, I believe I may have helped speed up the recovery in my home area. 

Here’s pics of a feral swarm landing in a bee log.

Swarm Alights on Bee Log 
http://tinyurl.com/2xnesn

Swarm Enters Bee Log 
http://tinyurl.com/28oqyt

Inside View of Bee Log 
http://tinyurl.com/25antl

Inside View of Bee Log 2 
http://tinyurl.com/24ezxk

Swarm in Bee Log 5 Days Later 
http://tinyurl.com/2dyo99

Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' 
FeralBeeProject.com 
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HoneybeeArticles


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## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

It is soo easy to just go and get hives from someone dedicated enough to maintain good genetic diversity in his hives. I almost feel guilty

Thanks Joe for the great bees


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

yea, but I think you need to figure that there's "some" local population you're going to have to influence 
I figure if I throw "good" bees in here for a couple of years and get the benefits of whatever "survivors" are around I should have a nice setup
I'll influence the local genetics and get whatever good characteristics they have
just my little theory, always open to change

Dave


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

balhanapi said:


> Thanks Joe for the great bees


Hello Sukhraj,

Was nice to finally meet you!
Hope they thrive exceedingly!

Been quite a few large prime swarms this season,,,
I got several swarms the past few days and still have yet to go get an 'open air nest' that was called in, said to be large. I'll get pics!

I’m happy I just caught a swarm in my footlocker trap:

Swarm lands on foot locker trap.

http://s109.photobucket.com/albums/n41/pcolar/?action=view&current=DCP_1956.jpg

Queen entering the trap:

http://s109.photobucket.com/albums/n41/pcolar/?action=view&current=DCP_1959.jpg

‘I laid my head to ye tree and there was a humming, and I said there is bees!’
(1641 Bee Hunter) 

Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' 
FeralBeeProject.com 
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HoneybeeArticles


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

*bees*

Thanks for the post Joe


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## Sarge (Jun 26, 2006)

If we continualy eliminate the poor performers are'nt we just going back to where we are now? That's what beeks have done for centuries and look at what we have, a bottle neck in the species genetics.
Is the goal strong diverse bees or honey production? Seems like the one has been worked out already with what we have.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Sarge said:


> If we continualy eliminate the poor performers are'nt we just going back to where we are now? That's what beeks have done for centuries and look at what we have, a bottle neck in the species genetics.
> Is the goal strong diverse bees or honey production? Seems like the one has been worked out already with what we have.


I would be more prone to believe that the bottle neck is from breeding practices like grafting all your queens from limited stock, sending up north queens that are likely sisters etc. 

You make a very good point that diversity is good, but I would propose diversity is good ONLY if it is from good genetics, poor genetics (although diverse) would be harmful to the breeding population of bees. 

If you prop up these poor performers what do you promote? 
You promote, poor wintering abilities in your genetics.
Your promoting poor production.
You promote genetics less capable of suppressing disease.
Poor queen performance, and so on.

This is what poor performers do, and allowing these genetics to live, is not what nature would have intended because it would be counter productive to the health of the local population of bees.

All my bees are ferals and I allow the unfit to die as nature intended. I have yet to see a mite in my hives this season, and the colonies seem to be performing exceptional this year. My neighbor just called and said his hives (that I understand he props up with acid treatments) are polluted with mites. Now, that does not seem beneficial to me that he is propping up these genetics, and he is paying the price.

I just offered today to get his 9 colonies down to small cell and replace with feral stock at cost. He is the last holdout in my area, and I can’t have these genetics surviving to pollute my breeding sphere. 


Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' 
FeralBeeProject.com 
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HoneybeeArticles


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

naturebee said:


> Queen entering the trap:
> 
> http://s109.photobucket.com/albums/n41/pcolar/?action=view&current=DCP_1959.jpg


That is an awesome pic. A) it is a good bee shot, and B) to catch the queen going is is amazing.


> is not what nature would have intended because it would be counter productive to the health of the local population of bees.


*Nature* "intends" nothing, nor does it think about or try to affect the health of anything.



> I just offered today to get his 9 colonies down to small cell and replace with feral stock at cost. He is the last holdout in my area, and I can’t have these genetics surviving to pollute my breeding sphere.


What do you think the cost will be? (I have never really tallied it up)

Keith


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--That is an awesome pic. A) it is a good bee shot, and B) to catch the queen going is is amazing.--(KB)

Thanks Keith!

I pulled my traps in for the season in early July. I kept the footlocker trap on the stoop against the house. I noticed scouts visiting it for 2 days, but assumed it may be some scouts sniffing out the honey smell coming from the garage where I extracted this season. I looked out the window the other day about noon time and seen the swarm in flight nearing the trap so I ran out with the camera.

--Nature"intends" nothing, nor does it think about or try to affect the health of anything..--(KB)

This is the way I choose to respect the things I love. Getting on my knees with one hand placed on the deer kill and thanking the creator for the gift of nourishment is something I feel important to do. I know it had everything to do with the velocity of the arrow and trajectory, the law of physics, the arrow penetrating the upper left ventricle and exiting in the lower rib cage area. And probably exited at a reduced speed at some precise mathematical formula relating to velocity, resistance and mass. Either way you look at it, the end result is the same, a successful deer harvest. 

Mother nature killing colonies by way of varroa infestation, Or colony dying from scientifically stated varroa infestation explanation is a DEAD hive either way you look at it. And effective measures can successfully be made to bring the colony back into balance whatever a persons way of explaining it.

--What do you think the cost will be? (I have never really tallied it up)--(KB)

I offered to provide the small cell foundation at cost, I don’t know the price per sheet, was around a dollar or so last time I bought. I have offered to refer swarm calls needed to get his colonies replaced with feral stock also. So the cost would be not much.

Best Wishes,

Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' 
FeralBeeProject.com 
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HoneybeeArticles


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

Hi Joe,

I have followed your threads a bit and was wondering how differently you might do things if you lived in an area where AHB are endemic. Many beekeepers in this area have resigned themselves to having to import queens from non-AHB areas in order to guarantee (as much as is possible) that their bees stay manageable and not a threat to humans, livestock, or the beekeeper himself. Liability issues can obviously be huge.
For my part, I am thus far attempting to maintain a healthy and productive feral stock but not tolerate overly-defensive bees. It really does require vigilance and while I can do it at my home apiary, outyards may be too difficult to monitor closely enough.
Hope all is going well,

Jeffrey


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Hello Jeffery!

Yes, if you are in an AHB area, you are facing problems that would be difficult for me to imagine, I really feel for you guys.

But if I were faced with the situation, I might perhaps continue to requeen aggressive colonies as has been effective for hundreds of years. I might step up the testing for aggressiveness by implementing the patch test a few times a season. 

patch test AHB
http://www.sharkle.com/video/100077/

Eventually, gentler genetics will become dominate in AHB, although, I have no idea how long it will take. There are reports of gentle AHBs in Puerto Rico from selecting gentle stock, so I feel it is possible to tame them.

I dislike the methods that advise to “kill all ferals” or “kill anything that has AHB genetics“. Potentially, you will be killing AHB with a milder disposition along with the really nasty ones, I may be in the minority when I say I see it as counterproductive to kill all AHB. Keep the milder AHB to help tame the nasty AHB. We are stuck with them, may as well start selecting and improving the stock to have desirable characteristics for the betterment of beekeeping long term. But often, laws require that AHB be destroyed.

But it is easy for me to say what to do without having the need to face such a terrifying obstacle to my beekeeping. I’ve had an occasional extremely nasty colony, and if I said I wasn’t in a bit of fear, even though I was in FULL bee gear, I would be lying. 

I am reminded of the article by Eric Erickson

STRESS AND HONEY BEES

I looked up the link for you
http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/stress.htm

Here are some of the quotes I selected:

“The fact is, of course, that before the intervention of beekeepers, feral (wild) honey bees were (and still are) highly adapted to native habitats and utilize as domiciles naturally occurring cavities in living trees, rock crevices, ground holes and other similar spaces. As beekeepers, we assume that the white boxes we provide as hives are somehow adequate if not better than natural cavities. We find it difficult to understand why, given our breeding and management strategies, our bees are often unable to withstand the onslaughts of weather, diseases, mites and perhaps even the incursion of Africanized bees.”

“2) domestic colonies whose genetic fitness may be reduced are nursed along, often unknowingly, so that undesirable genes may be perpetuated;”

(Feral colonies),,, “survive, in part, because they still have the tools, acquired through millennia of evolution, to cope with hardship.”

(Ferals are not selected against propolis usage)
“Thus, one can readily speculate that the reduction of propolis in domestic beehives may have rendered our colonies more susceptible to diseases and mite infestations.”

If you look at the article in ‘animal science blog’ 
They make a very interesting point.
http://www.biology-blog.com/blogs/permalinks/12-2006/upsetting-notions-about-honey-bees.html

"Why the Africanized honey bee successfully invaded the New World but has not moved across Europe, we don't know," Johnston added. "Maybe (the U.S. varieties) were selected (by beekeepers) for everything but competition". 


Consider this for a moment.
I’ll probably get creamed with letters of protest but here goes. 

It is said that AHB came into America at a time when the ferals were nearly eliminated from the environment by varroa and TM, creating a wide open nitch for AHB to move right in with virtually NO competition.

What if Eric and the Science Animal Blog article are correct?

What if competitiveness was bred out of our domestic bees from years of heavy selecting for traits of economic value over traits of survival, and other stresses caused by breeding practices? Is it possible that an answer for the AHB problem is the requeening of domestic colonies located in AHB infested areas with the highly competitive feral stock?,,, 

Requeening with anything other than highly competitive stock is just asking to be out competed by the very competitive AHB. I would aim to select breeders that open mate, breed by swarm impulse, incorporate highly competitive feral stock in their program, and if grafting; are implementing a balance of larve selection techniques to maintain good genetic variation. And if Italian ferals are the dominate feral in your area, choose breeders that have similar type lines, this will speed up the process of rebuilding the competitiveness of your local EHB feral population so they will some day hold thier own against AHB. 

Best Wishes,

Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' 
FeralBeeProject.com 
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Potentially, you will be killing AHB with a milder disposition along with the really nasty ones, I may be in the minority when I say I see it as counterproductive to kill all AHB. Keep the milder AHB to help tame the nasty AHB.

That seems like the only hope in the long run and yet everything being done seems counter to doing that. They keep killing ALL the feral bees and not basing it on aggressiveness or EVEN on genetic. But in the end, of course, we need AHB that are not aggressive or EHB that will compete with them. By killing all the ferals we have eliminated both.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

>>>I am coming to the belief that as far as mites are concerned, the mite population in a colony is very much a reflection of the surrounding population of bee colonies. This makes assessment at the colony level very difficult, and mite pressures not necessarily a reflection of the colonies resistance level. When top performers are identified and placed in a separate yard with the best of the best, the influx of varroa from susceptible colonies is lessened, and the colony relieved of this outside influence can begin to perform as it should.<<<

I think you make a good point here and one I have been contemplating lately.

Early this spring I saw almost no sign of varroa in my colonies. Then in late May/ early June I started seeing young bees emerging with shriveled wings. And actually saw varroa walking around on comb.

Obviously, I was concerned. I didn't want to treat as the honeyflow was on so I've just watched for the past 6 weeks. I haven't seen any shriveled wing young for about 4 weeks and have seen very little sign of varroa when checking drone brood. 

I couldn't figure out what the deal was.... Then I began to realize that the varroa hit me when I was pollinating blueberries. There is an influx of colonies all around my area when blueberry pollination season hits. I pollinated some farms that had other hives present. 

My guess is that my colonies could handle the varroa somewhat without the added pressure... but when additionaly pressure was added... (influx of infested colonies) then they struggled to maintain the balance.

My colonies seem to have recovered on their own from the initial hit AFTER the added pressure was removed. Colonies moved back out of the area. I think the threshold level for colonies my vary by colony, location, and individual environment (pressures) etc.

Not a scientific opinion but an opinion non-the-less.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

naturebee said:


> . I looked out the window the other day about noon time and seen the swarm in flight nearing the trap so I ran out with the camera.


 
How wild! Must have been quite a thrill to not only see the whole thing, but document it as well.



> Mother nature killing colonies by way of varroa infestation, Or colony dying from scientifically stated varroa infestation explanation is a DEAD hive either way you look at it. And effective measures can successfully be made to bring the colony back into balance whatever a persons way of explaining it.


I would argue that thinking of it in those terms can cause one to misunderstand the principles of natural selection and evolution and might hamper ones efforts at acheiving certain goals, but that is for another thread. We all express ourselves in our own way.



> I offered to provide the small cell foundation at cost, I don’t know the price per sheet, was around a dollar or so last time I bought.


Around that - depending on your goals, it is probably a very worthwhile investment. I ahve heard of queen breeders doing this, giving queens to local beekeepers so as to keep a handle on what is flying around chasing their queens.

Good luck with your endeavors.

Keith


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Dan Williamson said:


> >>>
> I couldn't figure out what the deal was.... Then I began to realize that the varroa hit me when I was pollinating blueberries. There is an influx of colonies all around my area when blueberry pollination season hits. I pollinated some farms that had other hives present.



Great investigative work Dan!
Good beekeepers are keen to what the influences are in their hives environment, so good work!

What a coincidence, just got finished making reference to the abstract listed below while getting into trouble again on Bee-L 

It appears drifting occurs at a rate much higher than I ever assumed. Then, take into account that varroa infested bees may be disorientated and sick which is known to increase the chance of bees getting lost and drifting, then the rate IMO could potentially be much higher.

DRIFTING OF HONEY BEE FORAGERS WITHIN AND BETWEEN APIARIES POLLINATING BLUEBERRY, VACCINIUM CORYMBOSUM

http://www.actahort.org/books/288/288_12.htm

"Two 6-colony apiaries were situated 600 m apart at similar blueberry plantings. Three colonies at each apiary were fitted with florescent pigment dispensers which marked the bees' thorax with colored pigment as they entered or exited the colony. Each dispenser-fitted colony marked bees with a colored pigment that was unique for that colony. Counts at non-marking colony entrances were made by recording the number and color of foragers. The percentage of foragers originating from different colonies within the apiary ranged from 32 to 63 percent. Bees originating from colonies located 600 m away comprised 1.3 to 4.5 percent of the foraging force of the un-marked colonies."

Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' 
FeralBeeProject.com 
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

Joe,

Thank you for your well-thought out reply and approach to the AHB problem. In effect, I am doing exactly what you are doing; breeding ferals based on their characteristics and behaviors. It is not feasible, naturally, to genetically test every colony I come across, and therefore if I happen to unknowingly collect a docile AHB colony that retains the competitiveness aspects desired by many, then that will hopefully, in some small part, contribute to the solution to the problem. 
Would I keep a colony KNOWN to have AHB genetics even if it were calm? No, as was discussed in another thread, I would not because I believe the potential risks outweigh the rewards. 
I would, however, be willing to ship that queen or a nuc to ANYONE who believes that the risk is worth the reward and wants to keep them. 
Would there be any takers for this colony or queen? (assuming it were legal, of course)


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

Michael Bush wrote: . "They keep killing ALL the feral bees and not basing it on aggressiveness or EVEN on genetic. "

Michael, who are, "they"? that you refer to? Around here, at least, I get daily calls from laypeople who call me instead of pest control because they don't want to see the bees killed. They are often even willing to pay me MORE than they would pay the bug killers.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Jeffrey Todd said:


> Michael, who are, "they"? that you refer to?


You know, THEY. Don't involk them too often or the black helicopters will be buzzing your house.

Keith


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