# 9 frames or 10 frames



## Trapper1 (Sep 2, 2014)

I have 8 hives. I was talking to a veteran beekeeper about how crowded it was in my hives and hard to get frames in and out. He said he takes one of the frames out of the 10 frame hives and spreads them out. Won't the bees just make the frames thicker and still have same problem. I need advice. Thanks


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Yes, the bees will make the honey sections, even wider still. For my experience this can increase the difficulty in future frame manipulations.


----------



## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

your veteran beekeeper was 1/2 right. use 9 frames but the extra space is divided to each outside wall. this way the combs have the correct beespace.when working the hive start at an outside frame. this gives extra working room to prevent rolling queens, etc. when done push the frames toward the center again. the bees don't work the outside frames much anyway. this is the way many commercial guys do it. faster yet maintains correct combs.


----------



## cryptobrian (Jan 22, 2012)

I like 9 frames in honey supers. The wider comb makes uncapping easier.


----------



## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

About to add my 1st medium super for honey onto my 2- 10 Deeps hive. Was going to put 9 frames in but evenly space them so as to produce the wider honey combs. Something I read from Michael Bush has me questioning that tho. The foundation frames are new with no old comb so worried they will ultimately burr comb them. Any thoughts?


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

If you space out nine frames in a ten frame honey super, and the frames are not already filled with comb, often the bees will make a mess of things, even when using foundation.


----------



## cryptobrian (Jan 22, 2012)

> If you space out nine frames in a ten frame honey super, and the frames are not already filled with comb, often the bees will make a mess of things, even when using foundation.


This is true and why most all of the advice on 9 frame usage I have seen suggests drawing out with 10 frames in the box and only rearranging to 9 frames once they are all drawn.


----------



## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

cryptobrian said:


> This is true and why most all of the advice on 9 frame usage I have seen suggests drawing out with 10 frames in the box and only rearranging to 9 frames once they are all drawn.


I understand that but if a frame is removed later will the bees then redraw the 9 remaining to the wider honey comb size?


----------



## cryptobrian (Jan 22, 2012)

> will the bees then redraw the 9 remaining to the wider honey comb size


Yep, they'll often go ahead and draw it out even if they have started filling them.


----------



## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

Thank you! All of you!!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Brood comb is a consistent depth and that is best at 1 1/4" spacing (11 frames in a 10 frame box). Honey comb varies in depth, but is easiest to uncap at 9 frames or even 8 frames to a 10 frame box (1 1/2" or more). The problem with doing this in the brood nest is that there are portions of honey and portions of brood. So the bees draw the honey out deep, and the brood not deep making the surface very uneven and causing more rolling rather than less rolling and making the combs less interchangeable because of the uneven surface.

http://bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#framespacing

"...if the space is insufficient, the bees shorten the cells on the side of one comb, thus rendering that side useless; and if placed more than the usual width, it requires a greater amount of bees to cover the brood, as also to raise the temperature to the proper degree for building comb, Second, when the combs are too widely spaced, the bees while refilling them with stores, lengthen the cells and thus make the comb thick and irregular--the application of the knife is then the only remedy to reduce them to proper thickness."--J.S. Harbison, The bee-keeper's directory pg 32 

Here is a quote from Hoffman (the inventor of the self-spacing frame) about excess spacing in the brood nest (although he went with 1 3/8"):

"If we space the combs from center to center 1 1/2 inches, instead of 1 3/8, then we have an empty space of 5/8 inch between two combs of brood instead of 1/2, as it ought to be; and it will certainly require more bees to fill and keep warm a 5/8 than a 1/2 inch space. In a 1/2 inch space, the breeding bees from two combs facing each other will join with their backs, and so close up the space between the two brood combs. If this space is widened to 5/8 the bees cannot do this, and more bees will be required to keep up the needed brood-rearing temperature. What a drawback this would be in a cool spring, when our colonies are still weak in numbers, yet breeding most desirable, can readily be understood."--Julius Hoffman, 1890 Gleanings In Bee Culture Volume 18, pg 673


----------



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Welcome!


----------



## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

Very similar experience. Picked up an 8 frame nuc last month and didnt know any better to add 1-2 frames. Now I've got them filling it up and laying down burr. Keep expecting them to start downsizing, but still building strong! If anybody's got additional thoughts Im all ears.


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

beeware10 said:


> your veteran beekeeper was 1/2 right. use 9 frames but the extra space is divided to each outside wall. this way the combs have the correct beespace.when working the hive start at an outside frame. this gives extra working room to prevent rolling queens, etc. when done push the frames toward the center again. the bees don't work the outside frames much anyway. this is the way many commercial guys do it. faster yet maintains correct combs.


Extra space at the walls in the broodnest doesn't usually stay that way, the bees normally store honey in the two outside combs, if not both sides, then the outermost side for sure, and they will draw that one side out thicker which nullifies the extra space eventually, so you end up with the same tight fit.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

9 frames in a 10 frame brood nest makes it harder to remove the frames because they end up so uneven. Brood cells are a fixed depth. Honey cells are not. Then you end up with fat honey areas and skinny brood. Bees can cover more brood if you put 11 frames in a ten frame box than they can if you put 9 frames in a ten frame box. If you make the frames narrower (1 1/4") and put a follower or two in, you can stick with ten frames and you can pull a follower out easily which makes room to work.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#framespacing


----------



## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Trapper1 said:


> I have 8 hives. I was talking to a veteran beekeeper about how crowded it was in my hives and hard to get frames in and out. He said he takes one of the frames out of the 10 frame hives and spreads them out. Won't the bees just make the frames thicker and still have same problem. I need advice. Thanks


I am a veteran beekeeper, too, 41 years beekeeping. I learned most of what I know working with commercial beekeepers in California. They all use 9 frames in the ten frame hive. Nowadays my honey supers are all medium depth and I use 8 frames in those, makes the combs easy to uncap. 

Every time I run into someone using ten frames in a ten frame box, I suggest they switch to nine, same as your veteran friend. By the way, the Dadant's used a 1.5" spacing back in the 1800s and early 1900s, which is about what you get with nine in a ten frame box.



> ... Quinby spaced his frames -- and
> therefore the combs of the colony -- 1 1/2 inches from center to
> center. He followed former apiarists, such as Dzierzon, in this,
> and thought it the correct distance. Langstroth spaced his
> ...


Dadant System of Beekeeping
Camille Pierre Dadant
1920


----------



## gjt (Jul 24, 2014)

... or you could just go to horizontal hive with 24+ frames. :lookout:


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> So the bees draw the honey out deep, and the brood not deep making the surface very uneven and causing more rolling rather than less rolling and making the combs less interchangeable because of the uneven surface.


I see in my beehives exactly this. I have nests with 9 frames in a ten frame hive (an experience that I tried), and because of the uneven surface sometimes I crash some bees in my inspections. Most of my nests are with 10 frames and this don't happen so often. I don't like hofman frames because our local bee propolise the adjacent sides and turns our job much harder and intrusive.
For mediums I use 8 frames.

What do you use for maintaining the distance between the frames?


----------

