# Have a problem...zero stores/pollen



## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

feeding 1 to 1 syrup they use now. possible the queen shut down for a dearth. suggest 1 to 1 and treat for mites. last year I had those same results and my best hive crashed 4 weeks later. imo sugar roll is not accurate. normally 2 to 1 they store it. but you said none being stored so not sure. you do have a lot of bees coming and going?


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

No, not like before when bees were numerous at entrance. Bees still there but numbers down.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

I would feed one to one and see if that gets the queen laying. Good idea to look and make sure you see one. Also recommend treating for mites just in case it's mites causing the decline


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

kaizen said:


> I would feed one to one and see if that gets the queen laying. Good idea to look and make sure you see one. Also recommend treating for mites just in case it's mites causing the decline


Why 1:1 versus 2:1?

I looked for the queen, did not see her...but I've never seen her, but know she was there for quite awhile. Just don't have the eye for finding her. Got a feeling she isn't now.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

1:1 they use looks likes honey flow. So if she is still there she will start laying. If you see no queen cells I'm guessing she is still there. I would make the extra effort to see her. If she is dead you need another asap


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

I am about to gore the sacred cow. 1:1, 2:1, 5:3 it does not matter to the bees. We feed 2:1 all the time because it does not spoil as fast as lighter mixes. We have lots of brood and new wax being drawn until late fall. As long as it is warm enough they will draw wax if fed. In the fall if you feed too fast they will plug out the hive instead of drawing wax. Feed them and then wait several days after they have taken the syrup to feed again, and watch them so they do not plug the hive out.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Well right now....they have ZERO in stores.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Five mites per 100 bees by a sugar roll can easy mean 15 mites per 100 bees (or more if you did not do the sugar roll perfectly) by an alcohol wash. Fifteen mites per 100 bees by an alcohol wash means probably a dead hive by spring.

No stores in late August means you need to get 75 pounds of sugar into that hive fast or they starve by spring.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Richard Cryberg said:


> Five mites per 100 bees by a sugar roll can easy mean 15 mites per 100 bees (or more if you did not do the sugar roll perfectly) by an alcohol wash. Fifteen mites per 100 bees by an alcohol wash means probably a dead hive by spring.
> 
> No stores in late August means you need to get 75 pounds of sugar into that hive fast or they starve by spring.


I know...Feeding + patties. 

So....sugar roll not dependable????? and I should do an alcohol wash?

BUT...I did have pollen and honey, so it was robbed? and by what?

OR....sticky board routine???...I have a screen bottom board in this hive.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Go here-
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?329703-Shake-Test
scroll to post by enjambres, it has a link to a claimed better way to do a sugar roll.

If you're hive is a little weak you may prefer to put living bees back when you finish.

The bees may have been robbed, or a dearth may have occurred, they ate the stores, the queen shut down because there was nothing to make bees out of. Better you noticed now, The question is often not asked until it is "why are my bees dead?"
Bill


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## vtbeeguy (Jun 10, 2016)

I had similar situation this week I checked one of my hives and there was not a drop of honey in the hive and no eggs or larva either. They had been robbed blind, I put in a couple frames of honey and within 10 min they were fighting off another robbing attempt. I reduced entrances on all 5 of my hives and it stopped after that. I looked yesterday and they were already filling frames back up and queen was laying again. It's scary how quick robbing can bring a growing hive to its knees.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

whiskers said:


> Go here-
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?329703-Shake-Test
> scroll to post by enjambres, it has a link to a claimed better way to do a sugar roll.
> 
> ...


I've been researching this.....and have repeated found it mention the sugar roll is not dependable, and subject to errors if not done correctly. I chose to do it, because it does not kill the bees, but that seems now to be minor relative to the whole hive. I've looked at several youtube videos on alcohol wash, and I think this one is the clearest to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36oHVUl3INA

I'll be doing this tomorrow, probably will stick with this procedure on mite counts, as it is said it is the most accurate. Around the 8:28 mark he says there is two important points with this procedure....300 bees and pull them from open brood. I have no open brood, what is there is capped. Will that skew the count??

I'm not sure, but feel I'm queen less. Should I let this hive try to raise a queen? 3rd week in Auguest not sure I can get another queen.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

vtbeeguy, your post crossed with mine. I only have one hive, so can't borrow frames. 

I did reduce the entrance. I have syrup on top bottle, and I put in some protein patties. 

And yes, this hive had pollen/honey, and it's all gone....but what robbed it. There are no other hives in the area, or at least close. The hive is smack dab in the middle of about 450 acres with pasture and woods around it.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

you really need to get in and find your queen or eggs. signs of robbing? dead bees? chewed comb all over the hive? could be a lot of things. could be they don't have enough bees to forage as they mites are killing them. so I suggest what I wrote this morning.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

What little or much pollen reserved they have the summer dearth already took them away.
The more bees you have the faster they will eat--honey and pollen.
Now is the time to treat since they are brood less for a while now. Doesn't matter what the mite
count is now because we're in the winter prep mode now. Knock down the mites is your first priority. When you
have to treat then do it early. Give them a new queen if you suspect the old one is gone now. Do a thorough hive check and test for queen less issue will help here. The commercial queens are beginning to run out of stock soon. It will be harder
for you to get the quality queen if not now. Better hurry looking for a replacement!


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Beepro has a point, just go ahead and treat, they're broodless so treatment will be most effective, it'll kill fewer bees than the alcohol wash, and you can assess whether it was needed if you use a sticky board.
Bill


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

The queen may or may not be there. But stores are gone. Either robbed...but by what?, no other hives around. Or mites have decimated hive….but seems to be a lot of bees. Or simply too many bees for the stored food, and in the dearth. Took advice from here, went ahead and applied one MAQS strip to bottom hive. Have entrance reducers in place. Added a pollen pattie. Feeding syrup. I looked some for the queen, did not find her….but did see what looked like a small queen cell, it had larva in it. 

The bees seem healthy, and quite a few too. Beginning to think, there simply wasn't enough food and now in dearth. The comb is not torn or butchered up....just empty. I noticed some glistening inside some of the comb that I did not see the other day, like they are doing something there. I also noticed more capped brood this time in the hive, perhaps I just missed it before. I'd like a more experience eye on this hive. I'll give it a few days and go back in and measure the changes.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Feel free to post pics if you need input. Also would be a good tool for you to gauge changes in frames


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

jcummins said:


> The queen may or may not be there. But stores are gone. Either robbed...but by what?, no other hives around. Or mites have decimated hive….but seems to be a lot of bees. Or simply too many bees for the stored food, and in the dearth. Took advice from here, went ahead and applied one MAQS strip to bottom hive. Have entrance reducers in place. Added a pollen pattie. Feeding syrup. I looked some for the queen, did not find her….but did see what looked like a small queen cell, it had larva in it.
> 
> The bees seem healthy, and quite a few too. Beginning to think, there simply wasn't enough food and now in dearth. The comb is not torn or butchered up....just empty. I noticed some glistening inside some of the comb that I did not see the other day, like they are doing something there. I also noticed more capped brood this time in the hive, perhaps I just missed it before. I'd like a more experience eye on this hive. I'll give it a few days and go back in and measure the changes.


Robbed by what? Robbed by nearby bees. That 450 acres is a small drop in the bucket of the area bees forage. Any hive within 2-3 miles in all directions will happily steal the stores of a weaker hive. And there are other hives within that area, I have no doubt.

That queen cell you see, if indeed has an egg or larva in it, may be a supercedure cell. The colony sees the queen as weak and wants to replace her. If there are still drones around, let them replace her.

Keep them fed and treated, and the entrance small. Let them do what they will. If they survive winter, good for you. Either way, you will have learned something valuable.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Observe your hive and tell us if they're bringing in baskets of pollen. I'd bet you are in process of mating a queen and/or she has not started laying yet OR maybe dearth shut down your existing one. 

You're not mentioning laying workers so I'd assume your hive has some sort of hopes in getting a queen mated soon. Be patient.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

kaizen said:


> Feel free to post pics if you need input. Also would be a good tool for you to gauge changes in frames


I tried to take pic with cell phone...with gloves, it didn't happen.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Hops Brewster said:


> Robbed by what? Robbed by nearby bees. That 450 acres is a small drop in the bucket of the area bees forage. Any hive within 2-3 miles in all directions will happily steal the stores of a weaker hive. And there are other hives within that area, I have no doubt.
> 
> That queen cell you see, if indeed has an egg or larva in it, may be a supercedure cell. The colony sees the queen as weak and wants to replace her. If there are still drones around, let them replace her.
> 
> Keep them fed and treated, and the entrance small. Let them do what they will. If they survive winter, good for you. Either way, you will have learned something valuable.


Yes...it had larva in it...bottom was open, I could see it. Bees seem to be nursing it. I like you from what I know also believe it is a supercedure cell. And I'm proceeding as you and Aunt Betty recommends. 

At my experience level, I don't have confidence in what I'm seeing, but a learning experience for sure.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Maybe Harley has an extra queen.(if all else fails) 
He's north of you quite a ways. There's a guy in Arthur, Illinois who raises queens but he's sort of hard to get in touch with. Amish.
It's way too far or I'd offer to take a look and bring a queen. There has to be someone nearer that has bees, queens, and/or a frame of brood when you need one. The Effingham bee club maybe? Mount Vernon? 

How it works: 
Once I've decided it's hopeless and start searching hard to find a replacement queen or frame of suitable larvae and actually find one that's when I go take a look and confirm that I don't need it. 
It happens a lot. Go ahead and go thru the motions once tho. 
It's healthy and will teach you something plus give you something to do. Not sure exactly what it teaches but do it anyway.  
The queen sales people will understand because they deal with this stuff daily.


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## yukonjeff (May 19, 2016)

jcummins said:


> The queen may or may not be there. But stores are gone. Either robbed...but by what?, no other hives around. Or mites have decimated hive….but seems to be a lot of bees. Or simply too many bees for the stored food, and in the dearth. Took advice from here, went ahead and applied one MAQS strip to bottom hive. Have entrance reducers in place. Added a pollen pattie. Feeding syrup. I looked some for the queen, did not find her….but did see what looked like a small queen cell, it had larva in it.
> 
> The bees seem healthy, and quite a few too. Beginning to think, there simply wasn't enough food and now in dearth. The comb is not torn or butchered up....just empty. I noticed some glistening inside some of the comb that I did not see the other day, like they are doing something there. I also noticed more capped brood this time in the hive, perhaps I just missed it before. I'd like a more experience eye on this hive. I'll give it a few days and go back in and measure the changes.


I am first year bee keep that is treating with MAQS now too, and the instructions I saw, say to take the entrance reducer out completely because they need fresh air during treatment, or it can kill the hive or queen ? I am not sure,but might want to check into that.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Alcohol wash:




Or click here to skip right to about 2:08.
https://youtu.be/oFL7zbTHUy8?t=128


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> Alcohol wash:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HOW does he avoid getting stung? I do that and get nailed over and over.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

yukonjeff said:


> I am first year bee keep that is treating with MAQS now too, and the instructions I saw, say to take the entrance reducer out completely because they need fresh air during treatment, or it can kill the hive or queen ? I am not sure,but might want to check into that.


It's why I used just one strip.


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## yukonjeff (May 19, 2016)

I have just one strip in right now too. I would love to put my reducer back in its kind of cool here and yellow jackets are robbing a bit, but don't want to chance killing my hive just yet. lol

Says no feeding too. Anyone want to chime in and set the record straight that would be appreciated.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

I did a MAQS treatment, removed it today and pulled about half of the frames.

Bees are bring in pollen...a LOT of it. I was not seeing that a week ago. There is a lot of bees in the hive. I still see no honey. I still see no eggs, but otherwise they seem healthy and busy. 

I've been feeding syrup...they are readily taking it. I've also had some Mann's pro patties...and they consumed that. Intend on continuing with this, but there is no queen....or she's just not laying now. I really did not see signs of them making a new one either. 

since it appears this hive was robbed, I've got an entrance reducer 1.5" wide, with 1/2" hardware cloth as a mouse guard on it. My entrance is also 3/8" high, not 3/4" to avoid comb building on bottom of frames.

SO...the lack of queen activity is bothersome, but not sure that tack I should now take. I'm continuing to fee with syrup/patties for now.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The combination of pollen and syrup should stimulate the queen to lay if she's in 
there right now. Afraid that she is gone so you have to check the hive for the queen otherwise
they will turn into a LWs hive later on. Time is not on your side thinking that the queen is there when
she is in fact missing now. I would confirm that the queen is there before giving them another mated
queen. Why the queen is not laying is still a mystery to me if she's in there. An old queen maybe!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Dups!


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

beepro said:


> The combination of pollen and syrup should stimulate the queen to lay if she's in
> there right now. Afraid that she is gone so you have to check the hive for the queen otherwise
> they will turn into a LWs hive later on. Time is not on your side thinking that the queen is there when
> she is in fact missing now. I would confirm that the queen is there before giving them another mated
> queen. Why the queen is not laying is still a mystery to me if she's in there. An old queen maybe!


I've looked for her, and don't see her.....but I don't trust my eye on this at all.

This was a nuc in April, but that does tell me the age of the queen. Not sure what my next action is.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Ordered new queen....talked with someone local....for whatever reason the old one ain't doing it, and the belief from the local advise, she ain't there.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Make sure to use the proper queen introduction method. Give them more time to release the queen.
And make sure that they don't have the laying workers either since we
don't know when they are queen less. 
If they have the LWs then any queen you put in will get her balled to
death.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

beepro said:


> Make sure to use the proper queen introduction method. Give them more time to release the queen.
> And make sure that they don't have the laying workers either since we
> don't know when they are queen less.
> If they have the LWs then any queen you put in will get her balled to
> death.


Well....I was fixing to ask a few questions about that.

The one local source within driving distance, has had some queen dependability problems, so based upon some local advice, I ordered a queen....right or wrong from Gardner Apiaries, should be here Fri/Sat.

I have two deeps....I would assume I want to put the queen cage in the lower hive some capped brood already in there, no brood in top hive at all. AND...what if my hive inspection at the time the queen gets here shows LW going on. WHAT do I do then? 

Assuming that's not the case, and the hive accepts the queen....should I heavily feed until winter, along with pollen patties? 

A month ago, pollen laden bees was a regular sight at the entrance....then it stopped completely, when whatever occurred, queen died, or whatever, that entrance activity simply was not there. Bees coming in now makes the hive entrance look like it did a month ago.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Dave Burrup said:


> I am about to gore the sacred cow. 1:1, 2:1, 5:3 it does not matter to the bees. We feed 2:1 all the time because it does not spoil as fast as lighter mixes. We have lots of brood and new wax being drawn until late fall. As long as it is warm enough they will draw wax if fed. In the fall if you feed too fast they will plug out the hive instead of drawing wax. Feed them and then wait several days after they have taken the syrup to feed again, and watch them so they do not plug the hive out.


Dave,
Sorry but I do not know what "plugged out" means. Please advise. Thanks.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

A plugged out hive has filled most of the cells with honey or syrup. The queen has no place to lay. This will lead to swarming for sure in the spring. Not as often in the fall. If the brood area is full of eggs and brood, they will not put the new honey in those cells. Feeding will force them to draw wax so they have some place to put the food. If your queen is really active she will fill the cells as soon as brood emerges. What I typically see this time of the year is new wax and stores in the top brood box, and brood in the bottom. I like to see 4-5 frames with brood in them this time of the year. The bees they are raising now will be the winter bees for us.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Ahh, you mean back filling the brood nest with either syrup or nectar.
They're all plugged up, alright. Now I get it!


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Thanks, Dave. Just had not heard that phrase before.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Added new queen this morning. I looked for signs of a queen....zero egg laying going on, but also no signs of them building queen cells.

Deed done, so we'll see.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

BTW....good amount of pollen laden bees coming in now. Hive actually looks quite healthy.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Well crap. Not sure all of this is inexperienced blunders, but this problem doesn't want to go away.

I did a hive inspection today. Bees look healthy, stores are on the increase, that part looking better. 

BUT...no queen. So the original gone. The one I bought gone. OR at least it appears so. I saw zero evidence of egg laying. I DID see a fair size queen cell on on frame. So is that hope? or will this hive kill any new queen off too?

Not really understanding the 'why' of what I've observed.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

How did you release the new queen? I forget were you feeding? Are there other hives you can combine this with? Getting late to pull this off


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

kaizen said:


> How did you release the new queen? I forget were you feeding? Are there other hives you can combine this with? Getting late to pull this off


Cage between middle frames, lower hive....they released her by chewing through the candy.
Feeding 2:1 syrup and pollen patties. 
Only hive I've got is one double deep.

And yes, it's why I bought a queen...but it did not work. At least it seems to me.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

tough call. new queen could have left on her own. doubtful they would have balled her if they released her 100percent. as much as it hurts i'd probably just continue to feed them and hope you have a queen from that cell or you have one that stopped laying and she starts up again. if you even did get another queen now she might not start laying due to the timing. i'd let it go and save what they don't use.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

kaizen said:


> tough call. new queen could have left on her own. doubtful they would have balled her if they released her 100percent. as much as it hurts i'd probably just continue to feed them and hope you have a queen from that cell or you have one that stopped laying and she starts up again. if you even did get another queen now she might not start laying due to the timing. i'd let it go and save what they don't use.


What's the life span of a bee? All the bees currently in the hive would not be alive next year...right?


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Sorry I should have been clear. They will be dead. If no laying queen right now they will not make it through winter. If they did you won't get a queen next year before they all die


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

That's what I figured.

Any thoughts as to why this hive has acted like this?


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## Tejones121 (Apr 28, 2015)

jcummins said:


> That's what I figured.
> 
> Any thoughts as to why this hive has acted like this?


Could have just been a series of unfortunate events that were out of your control? 

Hive swarmed in August taking most foragers and leaving nurse bees.
Virgin queen did not mate(weather, lack of drones) or was killed during mating flight(dragonfly, bird, etc).
Nurse bees eat up stores while waiting for queen to lay, which never happened.
Eventually they become foragers when stores dwindle.
Introduced queen not accepted or was a dud.


That's all it takes.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

I only expect 2/3 out of all my bought queens to make it. this year I bought 6 and had 4 leave. no idea why. once you accept that there isn't any guarantees with anything we do I beekeeping it makes it better......till you have something else unexplained. 
you can get a good jump on next year if let them forage and build up the stores at least. you could also try buying a local nuc and combine them. your experience is why I split 10 ways to Friday when I can. even if I lose half my hives i'm ahead of the game at this point. read up on what you should be doing month to month and then take note. maybe you let the mites get too bad or took too much honey......learn from it at least.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

Being first year from reading it seems many have issues. But one thing I've learned and I do NOT like it.......it seems there is way too many things that are out of your control. I'm not use to doing things in that manner. I do something I expect a certain amount of results from my efforts, and the fact that there is no clear cut answer is not to my liking. I don't like shades of gray....I like clear black and white issues. It's the way I've been all my life.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

jcummins said:


> Being first year from reading it seems many have issues. But one thing I've learned and I do NOT like it.......it seems there is way too many things that are out of your control. I'm not use to doing things in that manner. I do something I expect a certain amount of results from my efforts, and the fact that there is no clear cut answer is not to my liking. I don't like shades of gray....I like clear black and white issues. It's the way I've been all my life.


yup. one of the many reasons this is a tough hobby. it really does an emotional job on you because sometimes no matter how hard you try they have other plans. I've resolved to do what I can when I can and let it ride. When you think about it lots of stuff in our live are not black and white but we learn to deal with it or go nuts. Bees are wild animals yet we expect them to act like trained dogs.....if a bear came strolling up to me no way i'd expect it to do what I want.....but for some reason my bees I expect will understand and "get" my actions. 
Next year get 2 nucs and you'll be so ahead of the game that you'll be splitting into 10 by july. You already have a lot of hard earned knowledge which is the toughest part to get.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't like living in the gray either.
And so are my bees! Gotta do something than nothing, right.
Worry about the present to pack them for the winter better.


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## Tejones121 (Apr 28, 2015)

I think you can operate that way as long as you factor in a certain percentage of loss each year. Losses are "black and white" in that they will happen occasionally regardless of what you do. That does require getting enough hives to be able to absorb those losses and still have bees. Your bee yard becomes your hobby. Each hive is a component.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

UPDATE.....I just did a hive inspection, and things looking up. Several frames of brood, uncapped honey, and pollen. Hive looks really different. 

I saw an old queen cell nothing in it. So, not sure if the queen I bought finally came around, or they made a new queen, or I got a laying worker. I could not see any new eggs, but have several frames with capped brood like in the picture below. Some have brood more solid than this picture. BUT...I am see some with white in open brood cells...not allot, but every frame with these type brood cells have them. See the red circle. What is that?


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

good deal. if you weren't feeding start now and make sure they have plenty of pollen so they keep brooding as long as you can get them to. looks like just a larvae. it was either ripped open by you or the bees or not capped yet. one below it and on the left of the pic as well. that frame is a queen and doing well. on the frames that you say are full without that open cell pattern.......you need to watch that frame every couple of days. take pictures. if it ends up like this one most likely you have a lot of mites and the bees are removing the larvae leaving those open cells. as I said before I highly recommend you treat them to give them a fighting chance. build up with those 3 things and baby them all winter and in the spring split split split


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It is now officially Autumn. The queen has resumed laying and they are building
up for the winter with lots of big fat winter bees. It is now very important to keep
the mites in check otherwise your hives cannot make it through this cold winter. 
With so many cap broods that are infested with the mites inside already. I recommend
doing a MAQS treatment now instead of using the oav. Use oav when the broods emerged
on the next round. To build up the long live big fat winter bees you need to be like Ian to 
feed them the patty subs. It is hard to baby sit them all winter long so consider a combine
if things don't turn around much.


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## jcummins (Feb 21, 2016)

I am feeding, and have a pollen patty also.

I ...almost...added a MAQS strip, thinking the same thing....I will do that.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Like I said baby them. Make up some candy boards and prepare however your area does. You might just be successful in your first year of beekeeping.


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