# Equipment Replacement



## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

I replace as needed when something is no longer useable. Honey frames and boxes are culled during extraction, Brood boxes(shell) are swapped out in the spring if needed, pallets are swapped out in the spring or fall when they fail, brood frames(foundation) are added in during spring splits and when managing nucs throught he summer, new honey supers and foundation are purchased as needed and assembled during the winter.

I find it feels better to constantly spend a little here and a little there instead of it all at once.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

This is a good question. 
It's been years since I have put new equipment back into the business. Over the years we just bought out other beekeeping operations, and worked the equipment into the mix. Doing the repair where ever needed. I would have to say most of my equipment has seen its better days. This year I'm looking to made up 500 new lids, and 5000 new honey frames to start updating my operation. On top of that a new honey house, which is well over due.


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## mnbeekeeper (Jun 30, 2010)

in the summer not much is replaced. foundation is put on thats about it. in the winter i work just enough so i dont get bored. build a hundered pallets couple hundred covers. keep the snow plowed and the fire burning. in texas in the spring when splits are made all new equipt. is used and in the fall only the best covers and pallets get sent to calli. oh and the best beehives!


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## Brian Suchan (Apr 6, 2005)

Do alittle bit at a time year in & year out Other wise all you got left is junk. Pull foundation in the supers & Add white combs & foundation to the brood nests.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I've seen very successful farming operations, and I've seen struggling farms.

I've never seen a very successful farming operation that just fixed things as needed/fly by the seat of their pants/winging it/etc. That actually seems to be the approach that is more common in struggling farms. There is always something that needs fixed/repaired/replaced, and they spend more time chasing their tail instead of allocating their time where it is better spent.

I had a farmer tell me once that there are two approaches in farming. You can get a piece of equipment and run it until it wears out and patch it together with baling wire to keep it going one more day....or you can buy new stuff, and trade it in every few years. You never have to worry about the equipment breaking down when you need it. You are able to run more acres with dependable equipment.

I knew a farmer who leased cropland, ran nice new equipment, and was worth a few million dollars when he was killed in an auto accident at age 50. He taught me the importance of business planning.

I'm trying to develop good business management methods. I find it interesting that of the replies here, it seems to be pretty common to just play everything by ear rather than having a defined plan.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I think the short answer is that you do things as you can afford to given your financial situation and the tax ramifications in a given year. The main benchmark I used in deciding to make an equipment purchase is does it truly make your operation better or would it just be cool to have and then try to objectively judge where it falls in that scale. It is also hard to put a value on increased efficiency whether it be the ability to quickly make the rounds to give bees a much needed feed without spending a good part of the day fixing equipment or the ability to extract a large number of boxes in a day without constantly renailing broken frames that may be jamming the system. We always spend some time on repairs (who dosent) but in my mind first and foremost beekeepers have to be beekeepers, and mechanics have to be mechanics and if you arent spending most of your time doing what earns you a living you are never going to be very successful. I also rarely spend money replacing something that is "due to break down" if something is working well continue to use it until it becomes unreliable. We all have those pieces of equipment that just always work well and never cause a problem. So I guess my advice is to step back and take a look at where the bottlenecks are in your operation and make sure you are investing in things that truly make your operation better.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

CB, good topic.

I think keepers would be better off if they ran under a "roi- - cap rate" system. Most coundn't tell you where there making or losing money.

Seems like alot of them just want a new truck & loader to drive and sit on.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> .
> I had a farmer tell me once that there are two approaches in farming. You can get a piece of equipment and run it until it wears out and patch it together with baling wire to keep it going one more day....or you can buy new stuff, and trade it in every few years. You never have to worry about the equipment breaking down when you need it. You are able to run more acres with dependable equipment.


Countryboy, 

Well, I grew up in a farming faimily. I can tell you that any of them would prefer to buy new. It's just not feasible, despite the best plans. I take it a little personal, when people say that it comes down to planning. Planning helps, but it comes down to your willingness to put your health and family on the back burner, while trying to live the small farming dream.

The average farm size in a five state area near me is less than 500 acres. So, lets say your farming 500 acres, getting around 30 bushels of soybeans per acre and they sell for around $10 per bushel.

For the sake of this argument, we will say your land, house, cars, and grain storage is paid for. You do all the work and make your wife drive the crop trailer as you harvest.

For easy math, 
You get a record crop of 50 bushels per acre, over 500 acres.

((I realise some people get more or less, based on fertile land and irrigation))

Sell it for $10 per bushel.

That's roughly 250k a year gross. 

Then you need to account for taxes, seed, diesel, taxes, etc..

We will say that the tax man and friends takes half of that.. $125k per year into your pocket.

Lets figure up the price of new equipment. Since I've never bought new before. I'll figure it on a 5 year note at 6%.

i.e. 

At least:
One tractor (7330 Cab Tractor) @ $91,012.00 (1539 per month)
One Disk ( 670 Single Offset Disk) @ $30,184.00 (510 per month)
One Planter (1770NT CCS Planter) @ 91,948.00 (1555 per month)
One combine (9770 STS Small Grain Combine) @ 311,331.00 (5267 per month)

Then your going to need the random trailers, haulers etc...

Just for the list items, that comes to $8871 per month out going.

125k year = 10416 per month.

Under perfect conditions, that leaves 1545 per month or 386 per week live on.

((Side note, I realise this is only one crop rotation. Most farmers get at least 2, maybe 3. I figure, I gave the farmer enough help by paying off everything.))

Most farmers aren't living under those perfect conditions and live year to year. Hoping that this year's crop covers the mortgage for cost of living, seed and fuel.

I don't think it's hard to see why alot of farmers are running old equipment, or having to go out of business.

So, for the topic at hand. 

I'm looking to jump into the commerial world in 5 or so years. My plan is to buy as much as I can new for the initial jump. Then I'll rotate a percentage of new equipment every year for expansion and to replace the failed equipment. I'll have to learn the life expentancy of supers, frames, and extracting equipment before, I can figure that percentage. Different areas and techniques will require different equipment and percentages.

But, with any small business. It's about being willing to change and adapt to get every penny of profit that you can. You need to learn what to invest in and when to walk away from bad investments. 

Then of couse, you need to have a super sharp tax adviser to help you keep your pennies.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Countryboy, I can see the points you are making. I would like to add another variable, which is the talents of the individual. The best business plan may be dramatically effected by how many different hats the individual can wear with skill. Besides beekeeping, my son and I also maintain a fleet of 10 dump trucks. Therefore, we can save money not purchasing a new vehicle and loosing on the deprecation. For example, we purchased a incapacitated 77 GMC One Ton for one dollar, and for less than 200 dollars of parts, have it running with dependability. Our most reliable vehicle is a 82 VW diesel (turbo now)van(only 268 K) that hauls 1400 pounds and gets 30-32 MPG. 
I worked for many years ACTING as a machinist, and have 2 mills(vertical and horizontal), a lathe, a TIG welder, a MIG welder, and assorted metal mutilating equipment. For wood, we have 2 table saws, a jointer, planer and cut off saw. 

My point is that the resources of the individual may dramatically effect what may be economical for him to fix, and what what is more economical to replace. 

The bottom line is that we are trying to quantize an intangible. The costs and rewards of various different options available are often multi layered and intertwined, so that one seemingly small change in methods may have a profound effect in an another area previously thought to be unrelated. Sometimes there is a reason that "We have been doing it that way for years".
Slow changes minimize the chance of unpredictable outcomes. But it is a wise man that knows the time for small changes, and the time for drastic changes.
Drastic times call for drastic measures. 

To directly answer your question, we are buying new bee equipment as fast as finances allow, but not mixing it in. We have "new yards" and "old yards". All mechanical equipment is either purchased for scrap price and repaired to dependable status, or manufactured from raw materials. 

I hope that answers your questions.


Roland DIehnelt


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

"I'm trying to develop good business management methods. I find it interesting that of the replies here, it seems to be pretty common to just play everything by ear rather than having a defined plan. "

Ah, the best laid plans of mice and men,seems my plans are always changing.If you planned for every conceivable risk in this buissness you wouldn't get outta bed in the morning, but one must have a plan and one must have faith that the plan or some adaptation of it will work


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> CB, good topic.
> 
> I think keepers would be better off if they ran under a "roi- - cap rate" system. Most coundn't tell you where there making or losing money.
> 
> Seems like alot of them just want a new truck & loader to drive and sit on.


Cap Rate is a measure of the ratio between the cash flow produced by a property and its capital cost (the original price paid to own the asset) or alternatively its current market value.

The rate is calculated in a simple fashion as follows:

annual cash flow / cost (or value) = Cap Rate
For example, if a building is purchased for $1,000,000 and it produces $100,000 in positive net cash flow during one year, then:

$100,000 / $1,000,000 = 0.10 or 10%
The properties Cap Rate is ten percent.

NOTE: Positive net cash flow = The amount left over after all fixed costs and variable costs are subtracted from gross lease income, however before debt service is subtracted.

____________________________________________________________

It is important in the fact that it allows you to look at each investement in a similar fashion. However you must be certain that the Net Operating Income is calculated accurately.

What the cap rate represents is merely the projected return for one year if the property were bought with all cash. Not many buy property for all cash, so you have to break the deal down, usually by trial and error, to find the cash on cash return on the actual investment using leverage (debt service).

____________________________________________________________

A good cap rate can be determined by your market cap rate, as well as your personal preferences on risk allowance vs return. 




And hear I thought beekeeping was more of a lifestyle and less of a buissness, bottom line is you gotta make money,............Keith couldn't you pamper yourself just a little by sitting on a new Hummerbee, I hear their pretty comfortable.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

irwin harlton said:


> Keith couldn't you pamper yourself just a little by sitting on a new Hummerbee, I hear their pretty comfortable.


Hey Irwin, I do pamper myself everytime the Bee convention( forklift demo) comes to town lol. Yeah, I here it from everybody that my 1985 forklift should be retired.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

My husband was born into a farm family which repaired rebuilt or bought other people's worn out stuff. Only to spend more time fixing than using.
In my husband's family, that worked. It worked because they were not as busy as we are. Even they say they had more time to do "stuff" off farm.
Hubby still has the mentality of working things to the ground, but he is also proactive in making sure all basis are covered when repairing. He would rather spend time working land rather than working on machinery. He has also updated a few things.
However with the bees for example, we bought a few pieces of equipment which we wish we did not. 
The uncapper which is being held together with tuck tape...literally and has cost us a bit to repair this year.
The bee blower is opposite to that. Took 3 years to get to liking the thing but...after rebuilding and repairing it every other day worked like a charm this year.
I think when it comes to replacing machinery, cost has to be a big thing. Can you afford to buy new or good condition used, or will it do another year or two until you have the $ to replace.
When it comes to boxes, feed pails etc, maybe a proactive approach is so many a year new or good used from auction sales. That way you can avoid the all of a sudden cost of replacing alot at a time.
A plan is good, but a plan that can change with the weather or economy is better. And even better is knowing the cost of everything we do, having a sharp pencil and a good eraser.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Back in the early 80's I did an introductory accountancy course in the UK  I hated it. One concept I remembered was depreciation. As I recall it went something like this: You took a nominal life span for a piece of equipment (usually 10 years) that you had bought, and you were allowed to charge that lifespan over time against taxes so that when the 10 years were up you had money to replace the item. This meant that if the item lasted longer than 10 years you were ahead and if it died before then you were out of pocket. Does this mechanism exist over here?


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

KevinR,
You're wanting to eat filet mignon on a hamburger budget. 500 acres doesn't justify a 9770 combine.
The farmer I helped owned a couple hundred acres, and leased about 3500 more. He also did all the combining for his dad, who farmed another 700 acres separately. He had a 9650 combine. We could consistently get 55-60 bushels per acre of beans, and about 170 bu of corn.
You also forgot to price out a sprayer, which is the piece of equipment which pays for itself faster than any other piece of farm machinery. It will also likely be the most expensive piece of equipment you have too.

Just like Keith Jarrett's example, you have to move the hive numbers to justify a new Hummerbee. (or run the acres to support a big piece of farm machinery.)

My Grandpa and Dad are both of the mentality of trying to fix worn out stuff enough to run another day. However, if they lose a couple days due to repairing something, it's not a big deal when you are only farming a couple hundred acres. 
When you have a few thousand acres of crops to harvest, and limited time to get it done, you can't afford the down time for repairs. Down time is lost crops, and you lose too much money in lost crops.
I consider this the difference between hobby farming, and serious farming with the intention of making money.

I know beekeepers who ran over a thousand hives who used to reuse the tin from their covers after the wood had rotted away. They would patch holes in wobbly boxes that needed burned. They are now realizing that they are money ahead to spend a couple bucks on a new piece of equipment, and not have to spend the time on repairs. Repairing junk becomes a never ending job - when you are a hobbyist/sideliner beekeeper, you can get away with this. If you want to be serious about making money, your time is better spent doing other things than fixing junk.

Perhaps my question would be better asked like this:
How much equipment do you (or should you) cull every year? 

Right now I have 30 hives and 20 some nucs. I am trying to plan for on down the road. I'm trying to figure out how much equipment I should allocate as replacement, and how much new equipment is allocated for growth. If I start allocating 3% or 5% of new equipment as maintenance, it won't hit me all at once years down the road when everything starts falling apart and I have to play catch up.

Roland,
Our shops sound similar. I don't have a horizontal mill in my metal shop, but I do have a few more saws in my woodshop. (scrollsaws, bandsaw, radial arm saw) But when we have shops and the ability to use them, is our time better spent patching half rotted boxes, or just building a new box?

_I think when it comes to replacing machinery, cost has to be a big thing. Can you afford to buy new or good condition used, or will it do another year or two until you have the $ to replace._

This is a mentality I have never been able to understand. Cost is important for consumption items. Machinery/equipment is not (or should not) be a consumption item or luxury goods. They are a capital good - their purpose is to make you money. Don't look at the price tag - look at what it will take to make it pay for itself, and how much money it will make you. If you can justify the cost, then your business can afford it.

Odds are, if you don't have the money to replace something now, by the time you get the money, something else will need replacing too, and you will always be chasing your tail, trying to come up with the funds today to fix what needed replacing yesterday.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_You took a nominal life span for a piece of equipment (usually 10 years) that you had bought, and you were allowed to charge that lifespan over time against taxes so that when the 10 years were up you had money to replace the item. This meant that if the item lasted longer than 10 years you were ahead and if it died before then you were out of pocket. Does this mechanism exist over here? _

Yes, we have depreciation for taxes. You can write off the cost of something all at once in one year, or you can spread it over several years. This usually works better for big ticket items, like a building or vehicles. To me it wouldn't make sense to depreciate a $2 box.

This is an accounting gimmick for playing paper tricks. It won't make equipment last any longer than it will actually last. I'm more interested in the real world experiences. What is the practical rate of replacement? (If you depreciated a box for 10 years, and that box was still usable in 10 years, then it isn't practical to put a replacement box into storage and depreciate the stored box.) 

For people who have been in the beekeeping game long enough to have equipment wear out, they should have a good idea of life expectancy of equipment, and how much they have to allocate towards replacement equipment. Or are these records many beekeepers have forgotten to keep track of over the years? For example, if you run 1,000 hives, and you make/buy 1,000 lids/boxes/bottom boards every 20 years, you replace 50 of each a year. (5% attrition)


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> KevinR,
> You're wanting to eat filet mignon on a hamburger budget.


Just examples, none of the numbers were realistic. 500 acres of farm land here is at least 2.5 million. *shrugs*

I'm not involved in farming very much anymore and when I was I drove whatever we had. Currently, I'm just trying to figure out how to get back to the farm, without having to sell a kidney on the black market.

As for my bee plans.

Assuming, that I keep everything alive through the winter. I'm planning on buying 10-25 additional hives this spring. If I don't kill them off. I'll look at splitting each one to 50 hives. But, that might be a little too agressive. I'll need to see how it goes.

I would think that your main failure will be lids and frames. Your supers should last for a while, if your not too abusive on them. The bottom boards should last for a long time, if you keep them off the ground.

Currently, I've built 15 hives with migratory tops at $2.5, screen bottoms for ~$3, mediums supers for ~$4.5 per. Frames are roughly $1.5 per. I figured about 85 bucks per 5 super hive minus bees.

Depending on how fast or slow, I decide to ramp up. The bees will be large cost of the expansion. 

I think it would be a safe assumption that you have a 10% frame replacement each year. Through damage or failure and random nuc sales.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

We have only been in the bee game for a few years..I think 7 now. Cattle however 15+. Alot of the mistakes from cows have...money wise and equipment wise we have changed. Seen that we need to maybe spend a bit here and there.
As for culling, I am not sure the magic number. I just had this brain wave in the last few days. We were filling feed pails and culled some due to inside dirt that was not cleanable without removing the lid and gasket. Do that and you might have to replacce the lid. If you replace the lid, the pail, due to age might fail in by the end of fall or spring...nothing lasts forever. So while picking up some feed, I also picked up some pails. We use 200 pails a year on hives and have a few extra for what ever reason. So I bought 40 new pails. Got to thinking that some should be culled every year. The old pails can get sent to the shopfor what ever the shop needs or the barn for cattle feed pails...recylce 
When it comes to cows, the "magic" number is 10% every year. That is cows
When it come to bred hiefers the "magic" number is 30% from the start of picking out hiefers (own raised) to the time of weaning the first calf and another 10- 15% by the end of weaning the second calf.
So knowing these numbers help to establish the # of replacements every year.
When looking at wooden ware and pails, frames,...the small stuff, and depending on your size of operation, I think a 20% potential cull rate is not bad per year.
I know I have marked about that many in use boxes brood boxes for culling in the spring. However, alot of my hive equipment is used and well used.

As for the uncapper and such, We have a plan for that. Our plan is 2 years. Get by with it for two more years. And yes, we have thought of the cost savings by upgrading the equipment. Our problem is when we bought some stuff, we had no idea we would be this big. Our equipment is great for 50 hives. Just starting out we did not look ahead at where we wanted to be...it just happened one day...literally. Doesn't mean that we are not looking for a good deal somewhere right now though.


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## 67630 (Jul 17, 2008)

If you have a piece of equipment that is trouble free it really does not matter what year it was built. When something starts to cost more, in both parts and labor than what a replacement would cost then that is when it is time to replace it. Needs and wants.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Countryboy said:


> Just like Keith Jarrett's example, you have to move the hive numbers to justify a new Hummerbee. (or run the acres to support a big piece of farm machinery.)


CB, we run right at three thousand hives with that old thing, but now that the assie bees are now banded from import to the U.S.A. maybe the almond price will stay up and I can afford a new one.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Keith:

Are you saying Aussie bees can't be imported in the USA? If so when did that happen? Opportunity here canadian beekeepers. Keith I think you can dig in your pocket and come up with more than just a few nickles.

Jean-Marc


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jean-marc said:


> Keith I think you can dig in your pocket and come up with more than just a few nickles.
> Jean-Marc


JM..... If I had your money, I'd burn mine, but I couldn't even send up smoke. 

If it took a nickel to go around the world, I couldn't make it to the first stop sign. 

I'm so broke now I can't afford to PAY attention. 


P.S. they are closed.


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

Brian does a great job of culling old equiptment & keeping the operation in great shape both inside & out.
I worked for a number of other beeks over the years that refused to spend even a dime on any new anything.
As a result there operations were a " heap " at best when they sold out.
I vowed I would never let our outfit turn into what they had in the end!!!
Yes it costs money to buy new but it is sure a lot easier to work with in the long run!!!


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Keith,
As long as your forklift is dependable, it's difficult to justify shelling out the bucks for a nicer forklift. If you had to work on thelift for a couple hours every time you wanted to use it, that would get old fast, andyou might then decide to refurbish it or give it the boot.
However, I worked for a farmer who traded in dependable tractors and bought a fancier model that had air ride seats and a super great lighting package. To most folks, they would be unable to justify the added cost. Bill knew that with the old hard seats, your back is killing you after 8 hours. With the new air ride seats, your back still felt ok after 14 or 16 hours. With the light package, you could see what you were doing at night, which eliminated mistakes due to not being able to see, and paid for the lights.
I don't know how many hours a day you are on your forklift, but if you get off feeling like someone just beat the crap out of you, that would be one thing to consider, even if your lift is dependable. 

_CB, we run right at three thousand hives _

Are you trying to stay at 3,000 hives, or are you trying to get bigger or smaller? If you are trying to stay at 3K, how much hive equipment do you replace every year? (Boxes, frames, lids, etc.) If you are downsizing, are you just downsizing as boxes wear out? What is your rate of attrition? If growing, how much equipment do you buy to replace stuff, and how much goes towards growth?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Yes and in the end it has some value which can be recouped in the sale of the outfit. I mean who wants to buy a pile of junk? Even if the price is cheap you immediately have to start replacing stuff if you buy a junky outfit. I don't like working with junk so we purchase a lot of new stuff every year. We sell a lot of hives and nucs so basically our outfit is about as good as they get, bee equipment wise. Basically in order to keep it in good shape a person should budget to replace 10% of the boxes and frames every year. Then the outfit is always good. Another we do is to get our equipment hot dipped in paraffin and rosen. Looks very good at first, then the boxes turn kinda grey with time(nice camoflage) but they remain sound. This is certainly a practise I would recomment to all especially those living in high moisturer areas. The hot dipping penetrates the wood. Apparently some outifits in Australia have been doing this for 30 years plus and the 30 year old equipment is still sound.

Jean-Marc


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Thank you. 10% is a usable figure to start planning with.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Countryboy said:


> Keith,
> As long as your forklift is dependable, it's difficult to justify shelling out the bucks for a nicer forklift.


Well said CB, I also agree with JM, we wax dip EVERYTHING that is wood.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Countryboy, from your post:

Roland,
Our shops sound similar. I don't have a horizontal mill in my metal shop, but I do have a few more saws in my woodshop. (scrollsaws, bandsaw, radial arm saw) But when we have shops and the ability to use them, is our time better spent patching half rotted boxes, or just building a new box?

Yes, I am weak on wood, better with metal. 

Half rotten goes out. We will fix the top and bottom edges, to a depth of 3/4 inch. Any more and it is not worth it. If you sort your repairs, and make a 3/4" inch cut off all of them, the same 3/4 by 3/4 repair piece, made in volume, can be used. 3/8 by 3/4 fixes the frame rest. More important than how many times it has been repaired, is how well it functions. A perfectly solid, never been rotted, super, that is bowed out so that the frames drop, is worth less than the old multiple repaired, but still "to print" super.

To throw in another variable, how much should be spent on keeping the supers painted, or the initial dip? We have supers that are from the mid forties, that are still "to print". Would you throw out a good super just because it is old? Are we spending more on up keep than it would cost to replace? I do not know. 

Roland


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

When you are a migratory beekeeper running in 5 different states there is no time to "repair" what gets worn out.

When you are stationary and have 3-4 months off out of each year then you have time to make repairs and be more "hands on" with maintenance. 

Then again if you are a great salesman and can retail all your honey then maybe your time is better off replacing instead of repairing.

Brood boxes you want to keep solid but your honey supers should last you till retirement. Brood combs can be rotated out by selling nucs(they pay for the new comb so the more you sell the more brood comb you swap out but bees winter better on older dark comb). Most power uncappers will take care of bad honey frames except the flail uncappers. The rest comes down to what income your bees will make you.

I recently bought 2 12' flatbed loads of supers from a fellow who took over his fathers operation and is now retiring himself(in his 80's). His father had bees in the 1920's or earlier. Some of those supers are ancient and were never painted. Long story short, they get the job done.

It all comes down to- How do you want to run your operation?


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