# Storing Pollen Subs



## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

I noticed in another thread a comment about storing and feeding old pollen sub. It is common practice for some suppliers to buy bulk ingredients or even dry and ready to feed pollen sub. I cringe when I hear about bee supply houses that buy a pallet of patties and set it in the warehouse selling it until it is gone. The average shelf life of dry supplement is approximately 6 months under cool dry conditions. The shelf life of patties is even less. 

Dry supplement can be stored longer at cooler temperatures. The cooler it is the longer it can be stored. This is true for patties too. Warmer temperatures and moisture (think patties) increase the oxidation and degradation of nutrients, especially some of the micro nutrients.

Hope everyone is having a good end of the season!

Joe


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JSL said:


> The average shelf life of dry supplement is approximately 6 months under cool dry conditions.
> Joe


Joe, where did the finding of six months come from?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Keith,

Six months is a conservative value for formulated diets within the animal feed industry. It is primarily based on the oxidation and degradation of micro nutrients and the overall palatability of diet. Some feed formulations are even more sensitive with a shelf life of 30-60 days or less. Heat, high humidity and the moisture content of the feed all contribute to the stability or lack thereof of nutrients over time.

Joe


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

I purchaced a pallet of bulk patties in August.
The label on it was dated April 2013.
When we opend the carton we discovered that everything was covered in a light coating of white mold.
Not too happy about that.
And no; it was not Nutra- Bee.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JSL said:


> Six months is a conservative value for formulated diets within the animal feed industry.


Joe, All the supplies we buy come with a Certifcate of Analysis "CA" they guarantee the product for three years when kept below 70 degrees & low humidity, these are companies like ADM, Cargill ect... I would think it would be very diffcult for the feed industry to be on a six month window.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Harry,

Patties will mold and that is a concern, but some formulations use a lot of preservatives. Some beekeepers like the idea of preservatives, because they can leave a pallet of patties in their shop for a year without seeing the mold grow on the patties. To some this means the patties are still “good”. Mold is one issue, but nutrient degradation is another and often there is no visible sign to the beekeeper. 

High or low pH readings can also influence nutrient degradation as well as fat content. Higher fat content leads to higher oxidation rates, things turn rancid. But, there is a tradeoff. Beekeepers and bees want moist palatable patties, with a higher fat content and low pH, all things that lead to shorter shelf life of most nutrients! Fresh as possible is the best approach.

Joe


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Keith,

Yes, you are correct with the individual ingredients in the pure and dry form for many applications, but when you start mixing ingredients, the clock is ticking due to interactions.

Also, keep in mind you are buying the bulk dry ingredients for their protein content, no? That is more stable over time too. Feed manufacturers then incorporate a vitamin and mineral supplement at the time of mixing to get their nutrients where they need to be. 

I don’t expect you to take my word for it… A quick Google search on feed storage and shelf life should support what I am saying.

Joe


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## davidsbees (Feb 22, 2010)

The sub I make and sell here in Visalia CA is made fresh for the beekeeper. The recommendation I give is they be used as soon as possible and not to feed more then a 1-1.5 lbs due to hive beetle in our area. I also use coconut oil which is very slow to turn rancid. I also use Latshaw vitamin and mineral mix. Joe Romance also sells sub in Bakersfield


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Alot of talk now about "Rancid", I nor my cuctomers have ever seen this, I have kept small lots of sub in my shop for long lenths of time for testing purposes an never have seen this in Nutra Bee sub, I am sure at some point it would happen, and Nutra Bee is at 10% fat the highest fat content of any sub on the market.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Keith,

What do you think rancid patties, would visibly look like, or smell like? 

Perhaps your ingredients are exempt from the properties exhibited by all animal feed ingredients?  Many dry grain products look at a 50% reduction in shelf life with a 1% increase in lipid content and they are talking low single digit lipid content to begin with.

Joe


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Joe, I have sent sub back to the lab after a year of setting just to see how much degradation was happening in sub, I would have thought it would have been alot more. I cant find the lab reports at this time, there filed away somewhere. And on your question of rancid, I would think of discoloration & smell would be some indicators kind of like rancid walnuts. I suppose if you have sub loaded up with oils your asking for trouble.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith, would you agree that the best place to store it would be between two supers of bees?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Keith, would you agree that the best place to store it would be between two supers of bees?


Ha, Mark, we have half the outfit in triples right now, that makes for two 5 pound rounds per hive, right now they avg 17-22 frames of bees per hive. We can shuck & jive all we want BUT the proof is in the bees. You want to look at some Nutra Bees pics Mark?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm sold. But shipping is cost prohibitive, I bet.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> ......... right now they avg 17-22 frames of bees per hive. We can shuck & jive all we want BUT the proof is in the bees.


Wow. Thats great!
What are growers paying for 17 - 22 frames of bees in almonds these days? 

:lookout:


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

"You want to look at some Nutra Bees pics Mark? "
Personally prefer the videos with your comments...your sence of humor is amusing


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Who stores nutrabee? My bees can't take it fast enough in our fall dearth, time for round two for my nucs that needed it, 2-3 lbs patties didn't last long, bout all I can fit into the top of the nuc and press it down properly with the lid.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Joe, I have sent sub back to the lab after a year of setting just to see how much degradation was happening in sub, I would have thought it would have been alot more. I cant find the lab reports at this time, there filed away somewhere. And on your question of rancid, I would think of discoloration & smell would be some indicators kind of like rancid walnuts. I suppose if you have sub loaded up with oils your asking for trouble.



Keith: The first time you gave me some of your sub I left the bag under the overhang out front in a box for over a year. To busy and dumb to try it till a year and a half later. The stuff was perfectly fine after all that time. Even after a two California summers. Only after the bees came knocking at the door asking for more did I realize maybe I should just spend the money and go with what kept the bees happy and healthy. The only time I've seen the sub will go bad is when the stuff was left in the rain. Speaking of which.........sure would be nice if some showed up soon.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Joe, I have sent sub back to the lab after a year of setting just to see how much degradation was happening in sub, I would have thought it would have been alot more. I cant find the lab reports at this time, there filed away somewhere. And on your question of rancid, I would think of discoloration & smell would be some indicators kind of like rancid walnuts. I suppose if you have sub loaded up with oils your asking for trouble.


So you only think what rancid woudl look smell or even taste like? I don't know if you have ever been a smoker. but if you have rancid oil is that taste a cigarette that has gotten old tastes like. that is the result of rancid oil. no smell. no discoloration but produces a putrid bitter taste.

I find it interesting that you will claim your product does not suffer a process that you can only imagine what it might look like if it in fact was.

In all it simply looks like you are quick to deny anything bad could possibly happen to your product. What is the shelf life of Nutra Bee anyway?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Gee Daniel Y, take a chill pill!

You are miss quoting my post, or paraphasing. Ah Ah Ah


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

"I would *think* of discoloration & smell would be some indicators kind of like rancid walnuts".

Are those the word you typed or not? I didn't' choose to say you "Think".

Again what is the shelf life of Nutra bee?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> So you only think what rancid woudl look smell or even taste like?


Key word here "only" . 

Shelf life, I really don't know, most keepers use the sub with in a month or two.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

How is comparing a rancid cigarette to bee sub even remotely feasible? All I see is a bunch of assumptions w/o knowing anything about the formulation of the product that it will go bad quickly based on nothing but more assumptions.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

This is a COMMERCIAL forum. Shelf life is fairly irrelevant because it would be stupid to tie up your money is sub that is just sitting around. A shrewd, intelligent commercial operator would only order what they need. If you have to worry about shelf life then........


Crazy Roland


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Roland said:


> This is a COMMERCIAL forum. Shelf life is fairly irrelevant because it would be stupid to tie up your money is sub that is just sitting around. A shrewd, intelligent commercial operator would only order what they need. If you have to worry about shelf life then........
> 
> 
> Crazy Roland


..assuming, of course, that it hasn't sat in a warehouse for an extended period of time. I got some from one of the leading bee supply houses once that, judging by how the 
patties had all melted together, had clearly been in storage for quite some time.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I have used year old sub on at least a couple occasions. No odor, mold or anything else suggesting it might not be good. The bees cleaned it right up and showed no ill effects. Perhaps it wasnt quite as good as fresh stuff, kind of hard to say.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

There was no intent to single out any specific supplier… I frequently hear the question from beekeepers and some supply houses as to how long the sub will keep. I think it is an easy agreement that sub is most effective when on the bees, but due to circumstances it may not always make it there in a timely manner.

Sometimes it is the supplier trying to order enough supplies or sub to make a price break, or sometimes it is the beekeeper that orders too much. There are many reasons. What we as beekeepers can visually see and smell are not always the best indicators. For example, we incorporate antioxidants into our vitamin and mineral supplements. Antioxidants help to protect the nutrients, however, the antioxidants have a strong almost “rancid” like odor. Some beekeepers will call back and say the vitamin and mineral supplement has “spoiled”. Nutrient degradation can be undetectable to beekeeper and the formulation of any patty is such that moisture and lipid content accelerates that degradation. Again this is not meant as an argument, just information when handling sub. 

Hope everyone has a Happy Thanksgiving!

Joe


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Roland said:


> This is a COMMERCIAL forum.


Well said Roland.

For those of us that feed lots of sub that go to the almonds, I ask only one question........ what do your bees look like Febuary 1, that is judge & jury day! If you like what you see then your on the right track, if you don't then keep making adjustment till you find what works for you.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

JSL said:


> I think it is an easy agreement that sub is most effective when on the bees, but due to circumstances it may not always make it there in a timely manner.


Commonsense would say the more there are natural ingredients used in sub, the sooner it should be used. It's a food product and we're all familiar with what happens to food over time. Temps would also play a big role in preservation over time.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Jim- was there a date on the box? I see that Dadant now has theirs date stamped.

Crazy Roland


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Roland said:


> Jim- was there a date on the box? I see that Dadant now has theirs date stamped.
> 
> Crazy Roland


No, glad to hear they are doing that now. It was a real chore speperating the patties. My guess is these had spent a hot summer in a warehouse. Bees loved the stuff though.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Even if they loved it (as they also love soda pop if found at certain times of the year), don't you think the ingredients could still have degraded in that time?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Barry said:


> Even if they loved it (as they also love soda pop if found at certain times of the year), don't you think the ingredients could still have degraded in that time?


Yes, I would expect that to some degree. My point is that it is still palatable and isn't showing any overt signs of spoilage. My choice, of course, would be to only use fresh product but I am also a sucker for price breaks and tend to over buy on occassion. This past spring I kept my breeders and builders on a steady two month long diet of 1 year old sub. They would usually clean up a #1 patty in a little under a week even during a heavy pollen flow with no signs of issues with the bees or the cells they built.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I don't suppose there have been any studies done on sub breakdown/quality over storage time?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Barry,

Virtually none that I know of. There are some studies that look at the efficacy of natural stored pollen over time, primarily in caged honey bees, if I remember correctly. There is one study that I can’t seem to find again. I think it was a Canadian study. The take home message that I vaguely remember was that feeding old sub was more detrimental to colony survival than doing nothing. Unfortunately, my recollection of the paper is poor at best.

The interesting thing to me is that nutrient deficiencies take time to develop within the colony as a whole. And, counter to what most people think about an animal consuming a diet deficient in a nutrient or nutrients, eating more of the poor diet will not make it better. Deficiencies actually resemble starvation in animals, because over time they consume less and less because their body cannot process what is being consumed if all the pieces are not there.

Joe


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