# Package bees keep leaving...



## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

Hi everyone... I'm new at this so any help is appreciated. I built a cedar TBH and added about 2 lbs of bees last Saturday that a beekeeper shook from an existing L hive. We both saw the queen go in. (no cage) Gave them about 10 bars worth of space. Been feeding 1:1 sugar syrup. TBH has a wooden bottom...no screen. I noticed they stayed clumped and didnt seem interested in building comb. I let them out Monday around noon since a few found a small exit and they started gathering like crazy. Noticed many bees entering with tons of pollen on their legs (5ea 3/4" holes and 2ea 1" holes at the end on the top; so I could see which size they liked best). By Tuesday afternoon the hive was empty and I found them in my neighbors' tree. I captured and returned them to the hive, this time with 20 bars of space, and have kept them fed but locked in. Many are clumped in one spot and many are active around the hive, but none are building comb. I do not have any to get them started. There is a dog that barks about 30 feet behind my fence on occasion. I do not believe that bothers them much because they seem gentle. I caught the swarm and check the feeder with no gear. Occasionly I'll get buzzed but nothing close to aggressive. I have only looked in the observation window about 5 times over the last 2 days. Any ideas to make them stay? Am I doing something wrong? Fire away with any questions. Thanks...


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## beegeorge (Apr 19, 2012)

what are you using on the top bars to start comb? do you have wax starter foundation or paint stirrers,, or what? 

I have seen this happen many times,, for some reason they dont like the hive,, paint,, sealant,, green wood,, wrong sign of the moon,, WHO KNOWS??


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

Racer,

Do you think the guy who gave you the bees, would part with a frame of brood? If you can tie in that brood on one of your top bars, it might help. Bees will rarely abscond when there is brood in the hive. Just a thought. 
Matt


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## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

Thanks for responding. I am using about an 1/8 sliver of wood that's part of the top bars. I used a table saw to just rip a little off. They aren't exactly straight but does "hang" down a little. No wax or honey rubbed on them.


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## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

I actually asked for that but he was reluctant to part w it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I add 2 drops of lemongrass oil to the wood inside my hives before adding bees. My theory is that if it works for swarm traps there is no harm in doing it for hives, and possibly some benefit.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Sounds like there is something about the environment in your hive that the bees don't like. What kind of ventilation do they have? Is there a way for them to easily get fresh air, but without too much of a draft? 

If your outside ambient temperature is high, as it is here, and the hive is in direct sun, it will be too hot inside the hive for a small starter colony to deal with efficiently. They will need shade, at least until they are much stronger.


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## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

Thanks for the tips. I'll try the oil. Where the bottom board meets the sides there is a small crack the length of the board. They actually line it at times, maybe blowing in air? I'm near Dallas but its not hot yet. They came from a hive just north of Dallas. I'll try the shade. 
At what point do I let them out? Should I catch the queen and cage her?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

It's amazing how hot the inside of a box in the sun can get. Once they have good shade, I'd give them a small entrance soon, if they're still alive. Being trapped in a closed box in the sun, without access to fresh water, is a recipe for disaster. Caging the queen would be counter-productive, since they need brood as soon as they can possibly start and grow some.


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## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

I'll spray some water in when I get home and move them to shade for tomorrow. Thanks for the tips. Should I go back to only 10 bars? Maybe increase the sugar ratio?


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## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

UPDATE: I added water, shade, and found some old piecies of sticky comb in the box they came in. I rubbed the comb on the top bar guides and stuck very small pieces on. I opened the entrance to let them out. Lots of foragers now for three hours. Just checked on them and they are ALL clumbed in the corner and no doubt ready to bolt again. Not even getting near the wax pieces. So...I guess they are just refusing the hive. Are there any keepers near Fort Worth/Dallas Texas willing to make a deal and trade bees...especially if you need to split a TBH and have an empty L hive? I am at your mercy! Thanks...


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Can you put a queen excluder over the entrance? They won't abscond without the queen will they?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Maybe it's the cedar? I've heard of other peoples using cedar for their hives, but I've always wondered how that worked out. I thought cedar had insect repellent properties, but I'm not positive about it. I do a search for cedar insect repellent and I get pages of cedar products for that purpose. So... Maybe it's the box you are using.


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## Bubbles (Jul 14, 2012)

They may also be tired of their beekeeper frequently peeking in on them.  
Plus, they may actually be building a comb within the clump. I suggest you try to let them be for a while unless you know for sure they absconded.


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## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

GOOD NEWS! Bubbles was right! I do see a tip of a comb already about 4 inches top to bottom. Bad news is now I have ants crawling in to get to the sugar water. I know sitting the legs in oil is an option, but has anyone ever tried diatomaceous earth? Any other ways to get rid of ants? I just got some lemongrass oil too....should I still add a couple of drops? Am I safe to uncover the entrance of the hive now? Sorry...lots of questions. Thanks so much everyone for helping this clueless keeper trying to learn!!??!! These little critters are just plain cool.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I would not add lemongrass oil to the hive not that the bees are inside. Yes, open the entrance. Diatomaceous earth will kill ants, and many other insects. The trick is to get the ants going through it, and _not _the bees.


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## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

UPDATE: Entrance is open. Last night I put the hive legs on flat pieces of wood and piled DE around the legs to make sure the ants would have to crawl through it to get to the legs. This morning...no more ant trails. Now to make sure the bees arent curious and check out the white piles below the hive. Thanks again for all the help everyone. I'll keep y'all posted...


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## Bakk (May 2, 2013)

Haha, RacerX, you seem to be telling my story this year. It's my first year beekeeping, and I already had a package of Carniolans abscond a few weeks ago. It was quite hot (mid/high 90's) all week, and then dropped quite cool (high 50's) for a few days. I didn't have a bottom board on (was just using a screen) at the time, and think _that_ plus the fact I was checking in on them every day to refill the small makeshift feeder I was using, was just too much for them. 
...I had also spilled some sugar syrup with an accidental knock while refilling my feeder, and after the ants had cleaned that up they discovered the feed I was using inside the hive. 

I've since added a removable bottom board, cleaned the hive body out from all existing ants, and added diatomaceous earth (recommended by our friendly fellows here on beesource) around the cinderblock supports the hive legs are standing on. I did a passive install with my new package of Italians 4 days ago with a larger feeder. There are no signs of ants though a few dead powder-covered bees are near the cinderblocks, as I expected some would be. And I've only peeked once at the bottom board slightly, where I have a bunch of hopeful looking wax shavings. 

I think my downfall was the bees' inability to temperature regulate by themselves, and my constant pestering of them, while the ant problem no doubt added to their irritability. So as everyone else says, try and give them their space, as much as you want to check in on them. Though it seems you are headed in the right direction! 

I'm not sure I've added anything useful for you, but your story seems to match up to mine quite closely. Good luck!


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## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

LEFT AGAIN!!??!! Just caught them...still in the cardboard box. They left about 30 sq inches of comb, 3 drones, and roughy 40 workers???!!?? Would be tempted to sell. I'm at wits end here. Any advice?


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

It sure seems like there is just something they don't like about your hive. I really don't know the answer but can you try a different hive? One that is not cedar? Do you have a nuc or something you can make quickly out of pine and put them in instead? You could always use a nuc for a split or another swarm if they left it too. I would try that and if they left it too I would let them go. (I'm only on my second year so this is just an uneducated opinion.)


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## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

This hive is all I have..just built it. I wish I new of someone about to split a TBH that needs a colony for a Lang hive. Our stories do sound similar Bakk! Anyway...should I go ahead and try a couple of drops of the lemongrass oil now?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> should I go ahead and try a couple of drops of the lemongrass oil now?

I'd give it a shot. It seems you don't really have much to lose ....


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I'm grabbing at straws here, but could you put them back in the box with some feed and some pollen patties, and turn your sprinklers on for a few days they will think it's raining and maybe stay inside. or you could just leave them in the box you caught them in for tonight and go to the lumber yard tommorow and buy some pine boards.

Are your Top Bars Cedar too? Maybe they don't like to build comb on the cedar but dont mind the box being cedar and that is why other people get away with it?


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## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

Thanks for the suggestions. Well, I just put 10,000 of my closest friends back in their home. I could have sworn I heard a small crowd say, "Not AGAIN!" Everything is cedar. Maybe I'm as hard headed as they are but I dont think its the cedar. It's dried out and I cant even smell it anymore, the ants didnt mind it, and even soaking cedar oil around my door to keep the skeeters away doesnt last very long, plus there are too many cedar hives out there working great. Now..maybe THIS colony doesnt like it but who knows. Anyway, I rubbed two drops of lemongrass oil on one of the back bars, filled the feeder jar, and closed the hive. I like the idea of the pollen patties and queen excluder on the entrance so I'll do those when I get them in the mail Wednesday. It wouldnt be a big deal to leave it open, but I dont want them ending up in one of my neighbors' attic or wall. Maybe thats it...too many neighbors. Once I know the queen can't leave I'll open the entrance and see how they do. If they just dont do well I'll make the pine hive or set them free. Thanks again for helping on this drama. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong!!??!!


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## Bakk (May 2, 2013)

Haha, awww RacerX... Bummed to hear they left again!

I've got a couple questions for ya:
Did you close the hive up completely?
How long does your feeder last? Or how long has it been lasting rather.
You mentioned there was comb left behind... Did you mean they built comb in the cedar hive you have, and THEN left to go hangout in the tree?!
And how did you transfer them from cardboard box to the hive this last time? 

I want to hear this story become a success! 

Don't peek in on them!


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I had a new colony abscond on me last year after building some comb, I discovered it was because of 3 small shims of pressure treated lumber I was using in the hive, I could tell it was from the treated lumber because the bees would not go near it. I removed the shims, added untreated shims caught the swarm again and they have been satisfied with their new home. 

There is definitely something about your hive that the bees do not like.


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## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

There is definitely something they don’t like...hive, too many houses, neighbor’s dog that sometimes barks... 
The hive is completely closed now but not near air tight. Its now in full shade from about 2:00 till dark about 8:30. It has a tin top roof that should deflect alot of heat.
The feeder is a 1 pint jar and lasts about 3-4 days for about 2 lbs of bees. No clue if that’s alot or a little.
They did build comb, nice and straight. Only about 30 sq inches. This was from last Tuesday till Sunday when the hive was closed trying to get them to make a home.
Most of them were still clumped on the limb so I put the limb in and gave it a quick shake. The ones still in the box I just poured in.


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## Maryland Beekeeper (Nov 1, 2012)

RacerX,
You said 2# of B's ? recommend reduce size, 3-4 TB's


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Racer, give me a call. I live 35 miles SW of you. I am sure we can get you started. I'm thinking of a NUC box to start. I have several available. Even have a swarm in a bait box I haven't brought home yet. Will PM you with contact info.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

If its 2 3's # should be around 8,000 bees if none have died. Even if it is 10,000 that's not very many so fewer bars and the lemon grass. I have a swarm trap made for top bars to fit would only take about 20-30 minutes to build out of pine and you could try it and see if they stay. If they do once comb and brood are present just transfer the bars.


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## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

Thanks Lburou. I may need some help. 
Maryland and rtoney: At first I had the hive down to 10 bars, they left, then to about 20 bars, they left, now back to 10. Should I disturb them to reduce it further?


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

If they are wanting to leave and not building comb you are not really disturbing anything. I would build a quick pine box that your bars will fit, put them in and see if they will build. A lot easier then catching them each time they leave. Then if they leave I would let them go and wait for the next swarm or cutout. You can't keep the love of your life if she don't love you.


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## HappyBeeing (Apr 6, 2013)

There is Nothing Wrong with all cedar. An Oregon company for many years has sold ONLY ALL cedar top bar hives and warres and no one has absconding problems. It cannot be the cedar. If there was glue or paint or treated wood or metal in part of it,that's a whole different deal, but it is not the cedar. My husband made me a brand new all cedar top bar last winter that I've used this last 6 weeks. I'd put some lemongrass in it too. To me it stunk to high heaven of both fresh cut cedar and lemongrass, and my bees have been Totally happy since day one!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Good to know about the cedar. I did not know for sure myself, I just wondered. I have a fellow down the road here with a lumber mill that makes everything for outdoor use out of cedar... he claims it repels insects. So, I was wondering about the use of it for bee boxes. Thanks for setting me straight.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I've made my second hive out of cedar so I sure hope the bees like it (not in use yet). It just seems like the bees this person captured don't like something about the hive he has. A quick nuc made out of pine was just a suggestion to try to help him stop playing catch with the bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

While I agree there is nothing wrong with cedar (I've built many boxes out of scraps of cedar), there is something they don't like about yours. Is there an open floor? Too much ventilation? Too much light? Something that got on the wood at some time that you are unaware of?


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## BayHighlandBees (Feb 13, 2012)

do your entrances face the wind or are they in the lee? Is the hive level or close to level?


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## BayHighlandBees (Feb 13, 2012)

caution on the lemongrass oil, if you use to much they will leave. My guess is there is probably too much aroma in the hive with the fresh cedar boards already and you need less aroma not more


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## RacerX (May 10, 2013)

UPDATE: Hi everyone...sorry...didnt get an email so didnt know I had responses!!??!! I have a closed floor, but I do have observation windows, but they are covered. Wood came from Home Depot and dried before I built the hive so I dont smell the cedar...not saying the bees can't. The hive is in my backyard against the "none used" side of the house. The wind does swirl if its windy but not bad. The hive is level to the eye. I used only two drops of lemongrass and rubbed it on the last bar. My guess is my neighborhood is a little too busy for them. Its quiet, so I'm hoping they decide its home.
The bee patties and the plastic queen excluder came in the mail last Thursday. I gave them the food that night, and let the sugar water run out...probably Saturday. I cut the excluder to fit over the entrance holes, installed it Friday morning, and let them out. I have limited my visits to twice looking in the window since Friday, and as of this morning, they are still clumped around what little comb they made a week ago. Not sure how much it has expanded. There is coming and going from the hive. I'm assuming the queen excluder is working since they stayed past the two day mark for the first time! Once I see good brood, I'll remove the excluder. If they leave then, I would have felt bad for making them stay. Please let me know if you see any red flags. Just noticed some of the names that have responded and I am humbled. Thanks again for taking time to help me out...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>  I gave them the food that night, and let the sugar water run out.

If "food" refers to patties, most patties are a high percentage protein, and low percentage of carbohydrate. That mix is generally a substitute for pollen, but bees also need carbs, usually from nectar / honey. My point is that "pollen" patties are not a substitute for syrup. I'd keep offering syrup until they stop taking it.


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