# Evil Swarm of Caucasions requeening challenge.



## mmick (May 7, 2006)

Gday Folks. Ive been going along nicely with the bees, got up to 13 hives there at one stage, too many for me, Im down to about 7 or 8.

Ive never had a problem with swarms before. However this is the first caucasin swarm I have caught. It was a big swarm, huge, hanging from the tree, it was as big as an 8 frame super. I had to house it in two full depth 8 frames. I should have smelled a rat.

Before I could do anything it needed a third and now I have had to add a fourth to make things easier for me to handle.

These bees are so defensive, they are pure evil. Until I conrirmed they were caucasions, I thought I had African Bees, trhe neighbours were not safe.

So ive now got em into 4 boxes with a QE between each. I have a new queen, arrived 24 hours ago but I have not been able to get in there to find old queen.

I plan to smoke as many into upper supers as I can, and slip off and seal each one.

When I hit Brood, the plan is to grab the first two good looking frames, quick check for queen, shake bees off back into super, put mildly beeless queenless frame in new box.

Repeat.

Two will do me, them put QE over box with 2 frames of brood, and a couple of drawn frames and one of food shake 3 frames of bees onto QE over super, close up. I now got a queenless Nuc. Wait 8 hours, add caged queen.

Now then I still got the feral hive to deal with, these *****es are pure evil. Smoke, sugar water, brahms, nothing works with these, thats why I have to find queen and kill her. Of course If I seen her in the first process all will be OK, but its a big hive, Id say 250000 easy.

I plan to then repeat the above process, but find her. If I cant, I will stick the entire super in the freezer.

They are not as bad as they were, but I cant see any other options. I like bees where one puff of smoke does the trick, italians, I like them.

Would appreciate your opinions/advice. Ive never come across such a viscious hive of bees. 200 follow you inside type of bees. Hundreds at the windows with stingers hanging out. So its hard to work em except near dark because of neighbours. if I work em at 10am when sun has been up for 5 hrs, they angry at 9pm and not happy the next day, no good.

I should just killem all, but I have a new young queen for them who is docile and mated, just didnt think this hive would be so hard.

If I can get a split, I may syill killem, vacuum em all up, freezze em, then put split back in old place.

As soon as she takes to the split, I will do the ole switcharoo anyways and get her that way if I have to.

Am I missing anyting?

I should have sold them, but honestly loading them would be a menace to society. It would take a special type of person to love these feral aussie caucasion girls.

I think this is an old wild hive disrupted by a tree fall or house removal etc and not used to handling. I cant see such a swarm escaping from a managed hive.

ta

Mick


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

With the queen excluders, soon youll see which box has the queen. It will be the only one with eggs, & tiny larva soon. The other boxes would make fine new hives, if they are fairly well built up. Why let Ms. Vicious back in? At least, 1 box makes less searching for her. It may be possible to put a nice new queen in each box without eggs. And , you could hunt that queen down easier. It will be obvious in a week or so. Queen excluders do some good things. Theres lots of bad tempered bees here if you get wild ones, also.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

when dealing with an angry hive, I like to split each box up and move to it's own bottom board at least 20 ft away from the original hive. Then put an empty box of comb in the original position. aLl the mean guard bees and everyone that can fly goes home in the original box. after 24-48 hrs it's easy to tell which box has the queen because it doesn't have queen cells, and it's easy to deal with because it's been demoralized. Find a box with cells pinch them and insert the caged queen, then find the queen in the one box pinch her and wait a few hrs for them to know they are queenless before you combine them back. Once combined back. it will take apx 4-6 weeks before it starts fully calming down, until then keep the inspections minimal


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

mmick said:


> I plan to smoke as many into upper supers as I can, and slip off and seal each one.
> 
> When I hit Brood, the plan is to grab the first two good looking frames, quick check for queen, shake bees off back into super, put mildly beeless queenless frame in new box.


No. Way to hard, will turn this job into a nightmare for you.

Either do like Harley said. Or, once you found which box has eggs and therefore the queen in it, carry that box to the other end of your yard. Go through the box looking for the queen. As you do, the older, vicious bees will drift back to the main hive leaving less bees you have to look through and the more docile ones. Finding the queen will be easier once you have it, kill it or put in a very small nuc.
But if you still cannot find the queen shake all the bees in the box out on the ground. The queen will not be able to get back to the hive. Take the box back and make your nucs etc.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If they are black and mean, I think they are more likely AMM (German black bees) than Caucasians. All the caucasians I've seen were quite nice. Divide and conquer:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

This may also help:

http://www.koehnen.com/#!queen-installation/ccqi


Before you attempt to install a new queen,make sure your hive has been queenless for at least 3 days. If your hive has a resident queen, remove and destroy her. Within a day or so of becoming queenless, your hive will probably begin to build queen cells (you may already have some in your hive if it has been queenless for some time, or your queen is failing). These should be destroyed before your new queen is introduced. You will be receiving your queen in either the 3-Hole cage or the California Mini Queen Cage (CMQ). If you install the queen too early the workers will most likely not accept her, and kill the new queen.

Good luck,
Ernie


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## mmick (May 7, 2006)

Thanks for the replies and advice.

The best I could do was...

The fourth box out on yesterday was empty so removed that.
The third box, pretty much stores, took three frames of honey, replaced with foundation to give them something to do.
put these two aside, ran inside, cooled down, removed a hundred bees with vacuum cleaner.

Went back, split remaining two boxes.

The second box, I moved and put supers three and four on top, ran back inside etc etc

The first box, I left in place, put an empty super on it, yep ran back inside.

Now I had a QE between first and second boxes, so she should be in the first box.

Ive stacked the what I hope is the queenless one three high to give me room to work. As said by yall, I hope most move from that back to old box.

In 5 or 6 hrs time I will go back and check second box, move a bit fuirther away again and see if I can get into the brood box. 
The new queen I have now had for 48 hours, I think she is going in tonight one way or another, worst case, I stick her in the top super of the three stack with a QE and hope for the best.

Its gone overcast and humid now so cant oush my luck.

here are the beasts in question. Their love of Propolis led to the ID of Caucasions.


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## Maddy (Jan 20, 2014)

Mick, you have to keep us updated how this turns out for you!
One of the swarms we caught last Spring I've named "the Wild Bunch," because they are far less docile than out Italians were. While being in a hive seems to have helped somewhat, they are still not what one could call overly friendly...

I'm eagerly waiting to hear how you find the queen, how the new queen does, and how long it will take before they are noticeably less aggressive.

~M


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## mmick (May 7, 2006)

Maddy said:


> Mick, you have to keep us updated how this turns out for you!
> One of the swarms we caught last Spring I've named "the Wild Bunch," because they are far less docile than out Italians were. While being in a hive seems to have helped somewhat, they are still not what one could call overly friendly...
> 
> I'm eagerly waiting to hear how you find the queen, how the new queen does, and how long it will take before they are noticeably less aggressive.
> ...


Ey Maddy how ya been?

Im having a rest day and so are the bees.

I checked the first new queen yesterday, still in the cage but lots of bees around her, they want her out.

The monser hive, eh, who knows, I popped new queen in, some interest but I didnt want to lose what bees ther were so closed it up and stuck in an entrance block left em an inch. That inch of entrane and the 4 lid holes have a lot of attention at present.

I still plan to add a frame of brood. Its a matter of when as I lose the yard for at least 24 hours everytime I touch them.

I might stick in all brood frames sans bees and exterminate this feral monster. I dunno, I dont need to requeen it I need get rid of it really. Im up for 6 more weeks of pests no matter what I do. 

I get one frame of brood and take it from there. 

Main thing is both queens are in and at least being fed along the line.

If I had my time again, I would have killed em all as soon as I knew they were hostile. Stil I am glad I moved them because new neighbours, lots of spa action and parties is not a good mix 3 feet over the fence. Its an excercise anyway.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Hey mmick. You have some fun bees there! Heres a tip for getting the mean bees genetics out of your beeyards. After you split, wait a week, and then pinch every queencell they made. There are no more viable eggs to make another queen of viscious nature. At that time they are hopelessly queenless, and will accept a queen better. Even better is a frame with new eggs from a good hive. Even Africanised bees, very hard to requeen, will use the eggs, to requeen, rather than choose death. The new queen soon mellows them.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Mmick most people in the middle of winter too scared to even open their hives, you got all this going on, where are you?


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## mmick (May 7, 2006)

Sorry the post that said I was downunder times out, I hate that.

HOnestly, been thinking, Im over them. Im sucking up all the bees and taking it from there. Im going to try to avoid poisoning them so I can reuse the gear no worries.

Im over them. Havent touched them for 48 hours ans still scouts are pissed off. Tonight I seal them up"

Tomorrow I suck the bastards up as they come out until Im full, replace the block, freeze the sucked up ones and repeat til they all gone.

I have more bees than I can handle, god doesnt need these in his plan.

Then I am going to be left with heaps of brood. They will all be *****es, so what to do with them? 
I think give them to the birds adter freezing. 
I will still slip in a frame of about to emerge brood into caucasian hive to boost numbers.

Tomorrow I release italian if she has not been eaten out. The candy was about half way when i checked last 2 days ago.

Then I have 6 new boxes to assemble and paint to replace rotting ones here and there. Also about 8 to take off, switch, repaint and switch back.

I them have 2 bottom boards to replace, two lids to swap paint and swap back.

Then one hive I have to remove heaps of natural comb hanging from lid, I forgot 3 frames lol so have to wire into frames the drawn frames.
Im hoping they are fill of honey anyway, they should be.

As Im doing this, I will probalby take 32 frames total from here and there and extract them and replace fix up etc.

So that wil be end of jan, I will have 5 or 6 hives. Aim is to sell 3 2 box hives complete. I think materials cost is $200. I will be selling them on Ebay for 300 a pop which I am told is a very fair price.
As probably have top super near full call it 20 kg of honey worth $10 per kg min as backyard has best flavour and commands best prices here.

Then I am left with 3 hives that are very productive. 

Now I have all the right gear, I would like to stay at 3-4-5 or take splits and swarms.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What's down under, Australia?


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## mmick (May 7, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> What's down under, Australia?


Yes thats it.

I went for a blower vac as I needed one anyway. 

Round one went quite well, when whats left of these is frozen, 
I weigh out of curiosity, and go back and suck up the rest.

That will leave just the field bees to suck up at dark
and I get my life back again.

120 feet from the house is not far away for these monsters.

Most of them are a blacker color whan you look at them en masse.


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## mmick (May 7, 2006)

WOW that got the adrenalin going!

Round two, I need a drink, got one in the freezer, cant get cold quick enough.

Went back in and sucked until the bag fell off, about 5 minuted worth.

They attack the black hose which helps. I like the nose they make as they hit the fan.

Its a huge hive, I must have about 7 pounds now. I gave the lid a few belts to gem em going so I got a lot this time.

I imagine as many are out in the field so I will be having a crack every two hours or so until they gone as much as possible during daylight.
then go back in at dark. I expect it will take a few days to get em all,

This did not set out to be a extermination exercise. However Im glad Im not using poison. I couldnt let these swarm, they need to be ended, we have no need for these bees in Austraalia. I will contact the DPI and see if they have a german keeper around here.

Defensive to the point of public danger is no good at all.

This is the first time ive ever had one of neighbours stung you see.

When they attack they even smell different to other bees.

I should have done this a week ago.


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## mmick (May 7, 2006)

Ok rouond three of sucking, I emptied and weighed the catch so far, so I had a chance to go back.

Ive broken the back of them, more getting sucked up returning than coming out to meet me. 

SO I will rest till dusk.

Already, the yard is noticable calmer,. They were also upsetting everyone else, the karma of the yard was gone.

I go outside now, its much quieter.

Now I got 2 kilos so far, most of these bees weight .25 carats and there are 5 carats to the gram, or 20 of these bees to a gram. 

2 kilos is 2000 grams, thats 400,000 bees and coutning. God Im glad I did this, as she only laid in one super, glad not second. 

I lifted the lid, not as many to meet me.

I wasted a week on these, I made a mistake of keeping the swarm because it was huge. But not much I can do when it lands in my living xmas tree.

Overall, I say back your judgement, I wanted to kill em, but got sucked into requeening them. This might have been possible in the bush, but not in a back yard.


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## mmick (May 7, 2006)

Well It is dusk and the yard is so clam, Ive been able to water vegies so worries.

Just the od angry bee and I know who that is.

7 hives and just a few angry bees, take away those, back in paradise again.

Shows how maad these are when the other few million dont even know I am here.

These rats have been robbing everyone and arcing everyone up.

Paradise where I can sit next to a hive and watch the coming and goings without any gear on.

Its so nice and peaceful, the rest can live for another day. 

here you can see I can stand next to the hive. I could not do this before I broke their heart.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

MMick you should say in your profile you are in Australia, or a lot of advice you are given will be wrong cos your seasons are the opposite to most on this site. The other big factor is you don't have varroa mites which changes things. From the description you have given plus where you are, I'm very certain these bees are a hybrid of old English black bees (AMM). They won't be Caucasion.

2 kilos of bees is a few multiples less than 400,000 LOL


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## mmick (May 7, 2006)

I ended up with 6 kilos, and about a kiloo stuck tot he sides of the machine.

SO glad they gone.

Yard is so calm, opened two honey bound supers, just a whiff iof smoke needed.

Even though I had to scrape honey off the tops of the frames and steal all lid honey, 
they dont mind as in no stings, no anger, my lovely bees.

Ive extracted 4 frames from the feral beasts and got 8 kilos of honey, I should get aboout 15 kgs from what they produced.

New Italian queen is going great guns, the caucasian I had for the feral hive not so, I just let her out, seems small, not many bees, the
frames of brood I put in may have chilled, No great loss, see what happens.

Onto a nother hive tomorrow, a three stach with some comb hanging from lid.
Be an easy job I hope. Ease lid up, prop up, smoke, prop, smoke, prop, till all bees down below
then slice each one off, let gently down, take off lid, remove comb, scrape lid, wire comb, put back jhob done.
No bites, no fuss. we will see.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

An interesting tale .... thanks for sharing.


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

Part of the problem is the size. Four boxes is big and big colonies of even pussy cats can try to throw their weight around. Busting it down into four separate boxes a day or so ahead of time could help but then again being queenless tends to piss them off as well.
Hauling the box with the eggs far away sounds like the quickest option.


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## mmick (May 7, 2006)

You are right mate, they did not like being moved into the 4 boxes...

The other day, I thought I would check on how the Caucasion Queen bought new is going with her two frames of foul evil black bee brood I gave to her to get started..

I gave the hive a tap. 

Well out the *****es came, snarling, spitting, barking spewing venom, you dirty rotten things. Well I know now they were not chilled thats for sure.
I had spotted some of them brawiling on comb thats being cleaned out in the open. Wrestling other bees off in an actual brawl.

A few more weeks and even those will be dead. 

Then I can see what a Caucasion queen can do, Ive never had one before, this one was bought through my mistaken ID of the evil one.

Well no certain ID yet, ive frozen samples, Im hoping the Department gets back to me.


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## Cris (Mar 10, 2011)

One year I requeened with Russian/Caucasian mix queen because that was all that available in my area at the time and then went right back to pure carnie afterward. Those mixes may as well have been pure Russian, they were so defensive. I love carnies though (I might be biased).


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