# Box sizes and manufacture



## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Hi folks. Just starting out this season. I understand there are a lot of opinions on this, but is there a generally accepted way to build the bottom of the brood box/bottom board? I purchased one complete hive to have something to go by for me to build my own, but it has a non-removable bottom board, and no screen. I've seen hives that have one removable board on top of a fixed board, and screens on the bottom too. What should I standardize among my hives when I build them?

Second question, it's probably blatantly obvious but I'm just not getting it. Why all the box joints? Seems like that's the one nuance of building these boxes that a regular person cannot do without buying special equipment. Why not just do the simple joints where the board overlaps the other and use 3 screws? Is it a matter of longevity? I've seen old hives and it seems like where they all start to get crappy with age is the joints of those box joints, the paint chips first and them the box joints offer a lot of surface area for water to get in and mess things up.

Appreciate the help in advance.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Box joints are sturdier, I think. A fully loaded 10-frame deep can weight upwards of 75 lbs, and all that weight is resting on the frame rebate. it's also important for getting, and maintaining squareness, too.

I use Betterbee equipment as they are local to me, their catalogue is online so you might that useful to look at for dimensions and details. 

I use (from the top down):

Telecover,
Vent shim,
Quilt box,
Upper entrance/vent shim/feeding rim,
Supers (mediums, one to three, depending on the season)
Brood boxes (deeps, at least three)
Shim with no holes (aka poor woman's version of a slatted board)
Screen bottom board,
Solid bottom board.

Some times when I have the quilt box off I use an inner cover instead.

My stack is unusually large and complex, but my bees seem to be thriving in it, so I'm not changing things up.

I think having a bottom board attached to the bottom brood box will lead to problems doing important maintenance tasks. I would change that part of the design. 

Make sure you plan for the essential thing: bee space between the bottoms and tops of frames.

I am envious of the woodworking skills to make your own. The most complicated thing I do is assemble the pre-cut, pre-drilled shims. And even then I struggle.

I protect the exposed end grain, any knots, handhold area and edges with white pigmented shellac, then I apply a coat of primer, and at least two top coats of good quality exterior paint. I have read that some people also use Titebond III instead of the WPS, but I am set in my ways. I also sand between coats.

Enj.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Appreciate the response. I used to live in Albany btw, we were practically neighbors!

As I am a beginner and do not fully understand everything that I might have to do in the future, can you elaborate on what maintenance tasks I might have to do, in regards to my fixed bottom board?

A lot of good info, I'll have to look up what all that stuff means (quilt box, vent shim, etc.)



P.S. I stumbled upon someones hidden apiary and it was 8 deep boxes tall. Is this normal or was the guy a beekeeping extraordinaire?!


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## Galaxie (May 13, 2015)

ABK said:


> P.S. I stumbled upon someones hidden apiary and it was 8 deep boxes tall. Is this normal or was the guy a beekeeping extraordinaire?!


That could have been a two queen hive:
http://honeybeesuite.com/two-queens-one-hivelots-of-honey/


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> Why not just do the simple joints where the board overlaps the other and use 3 screws? 

There is no reason that hives must use box joints / finger joints. My hive bodies are all rabbet joints, which can easily be cut with a dado blade (or 2 cuts with an ordinary blade + jig). Here is a diagram ...








photo credit

I glue with Titebond II and use a pneumatic stapler, and they are plenty strong.

And if you want to use a screened bottom, I suggest using one that is closed off and used with an oil tray. Plans for one are here: http://schoonerbay.net/rustysbees/ipm.html


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## Joe Hillmann (Apr 27, 2015)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> >> Why not just do the simple joints where the board overlaps the other and use 3 screws?
> 
> There is no reason that hives must use box joints / finger joints. My hive bodies are all rabbet joints, which can easily be cut with a dado blade (or 2 cuts with an ordinary blade + jig). Here is a diagram ...
> 
> ...


All of my hives are built with simple glued and nailed but joints out of rough sawn lumber. Over time I am sure they will fall apart at the corners but I have some that are 6-7 years old that are as good as new yet. I figure once the corners start to fail I can reinforce them with sheet metal bent and nailed around the corners.

Since I am using rough cut lumber the thickness on each piece varies so it would have to be planed to a consistent thickness to do any type of joint other than a but joint and there is no way I am going to plane down that much lumber for bee boxes.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Things for which having the bottom box and the bottom board permanently attached would be difficult:

Early season maintenance when you want to clean the board off without disturbing the bees overmuch;

Checking for swarm cells by tipping the box up and looking from underneath;

Detaching wonky comb hanging below the frames;

Doing splits where you want to move an entire box at once to another position in the stack;

Cleaning out a dead out;

Exchanging a solid board for a screen board;

Interposing a slatted board, or shim to function in the same way, beneath the lowest box;

I just can't wrap my head around the idea of a permanently attached lower box/bottom set-up. It seems like a really bad idea. 

Since you are just in Catskill, treat yourself to a Saturday visit up at Betterbee's showroom in Greenwich (Washington County) to look at their stuff in person - you will get a far better idea of the various components' sizing and purposes. They are very relaxed and helpful even if you just want to browse w/o buying anything. Be sure to check out the Bargain Barn to the left of the Main Entrance. They are open until 4 pm on Saturdays at this time of year.


Regarding size of stack: my "basic" wintering size is three deeps plus a medium. When I am making increase using Snelgrove boards they might get another deep and medium taller. And during a strong flow when I am using that to get them to draw more deep frames, I will sometimes have as many as five or six deep boxes stacked on one hive. I use ladders and scaffolds to tend these extra tall hives. I have big, perennial, colonies.

Enj.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

ABK is this what you are talking about? http://beesource.com/build-it-yourself/ipm-screen-bottom-board/
Do you need a screened bottom is one of the epic discussions on beekeeping. Its good if you use a collection board to see what drops esp how many mites. some say it gives better ventilation in summer but others use solid bottoms like you have and have no problems. there was a thread about it recently.
imo the butt joint you referred to is just not strong enough as the screws are biting into end grain. you could use a jegg pocket hole jig at least that bites into the side grain. still for a box i'd at least use the rabbit joint or something at least that strong. the box joint like the dovetail has 90 percent of its strength as the two wood pieces are locked together. so on a box when you lift it even if the joint fails it will still hold together. a butt joint failing with 10 frames and 20 thousand bees is not something i'd ever want to experience.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Kaizen, that was exactly what I was talking about. And thanks for the convenient plans. I'll be able to follow those to amend my boxes.

I at least understand the need for a removable bottom liner I guess... to take the trash out n all. 


As far as the box joints, I definitely understand that they add to the strength, I was just thinking if I used 3 screws at each of the 4 corners, even if they're into the end grain, that's 3x4 = 12 screws holding those 75lb. Which is just over 6 lb per screw. Strength of the screw would be a factor of how deep it goes into the end grain. Use a 3" screw and titebond on all ends, and I think the box won't live any less. 

For you experienced folks, how many years does a box usually serve you before it needs serious maintenance or replacement? And what goes on it first?


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

I don't think ABK is proposing that the bottom board should be attached to the bottom box, I think he(she?) is just describing the many sorts of bottom boards seen, old time solid with the floor unremovable, solid with removable floor, screen, screen with slide in sampling board, etc.

As for the box corners, the finger joints are strong and keep the outside dimensions of the box as small as possible, but show a lot of end grain to weather. For people who routinely transport bees on trucks small outside dimensions could mean several more hives per truckload. Many also use rabbet joints. A recent thread suggested locked miter joints, miter joints show essentially no end grain to weather but need reinforcement for adequate strength. Biscuit joinery suggests another sort of reinforcement. Most packing crates use cleats so that the sides can be nailed to cross grain, but then the outside dimensions will grow. There is no perfect joint. Largely the finger joints may be there because that's how granddad did it.
Bill


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## Rob789 (May 10, 2016)

Here are some other plans for making your own equipment with PDF plans as well as youtube videos:

http://www.michiganbees.org/beekeeping/in-the-beekeepers-workshop/


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

This stuff is gold. Thanks guys.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Greetings ABK, & welcome to a new adventure.
I am astounded that you could buy a bee hive today with a permanently attached bottom board. 
I think Enjambers covered that.
I build most of my own gear, mostly out of discarded packing crates from work.
If I were selling boxes, I would do every thing I could to give me an advantage over the competition.
Finger joints are about the strongest joint, so most "store bought" boxes are finger jointed.
Rabbited joints are also nice, present less end grain to weather.
I am not in the business of selling boxes, I just use butt joints, with staples & glue.
As some one mentioned the idea of a box failing, & leaving you with a pile of boards & bees is not a happy thought, so make a few both ways, if you like, & see what works for you.
I made an extension to make a shallow box into a medium. one of the pieces came off as a result of not enough staples, & failing to clean the wood before gluing. I must have been in a hurry.
I think I have decided to make screen bottoms, & set the hive atop a solid board, with a door in the back so I can run sticky boards or oil trays, or shove a vaporizer in under the screen.
There are some other things I am considering, but they are "way off the wall" experimental.
That's the "decision", what usually happens is I am in a jam for time, the bottom board is a flat piece of OSB with 3/4 x 3/4 rails stapled to it. I plan my boxes (bee space) so that I can use a flat board for a top cover.
If you use 8 frame boxes,as I do, you will discover that not every one uses the same width. I found some plans before I got bees that have so much room I can fit 9 frames in them. I later bought some from Dadant ( running out of time, just buy the darn things) & they had a lot of extra room, but not enough for a whole extra frame. I like the widths in whole frame units. 
( there is a reason for the extra width, but that has been discussed already in another thread)
I am currently using titebond 2 water resistant glue.
When this bottle is used up, I will go with titebond3 water proof glue next time. As stated previously, the thought of a box collapsing leaves me cold.
I think others have mentioned that when the staples rust away all you have left is glue. Make your own choice.
I paint all the knots & exposed end grain grain with a coating of glue. Including the hand holds.
some thin it down to use it for this purpose, I just don't. I also fill the end grains , cracks , nail holes, etc ( using salvage lumber ) with a smear of caulking before paint with whatever exterior paint I have scrounged. Covering the edges & exposed surface of OSB with glue helps, but not exposing it is even better.
A world of nuances, options & fine details . Remember, its just a box. Good luck with your bees ... CE

oh, about that "6 pounds per screw" thing ... the weight is supported by the frame rest, all the fasteners do is hold the boards vertical. so the bottom board supports the entire weight of the hive, the top supper only its own weight. I made some bottom boards with 2x4 rails, but I had issues with them. maybe later I will figure out a design I like. 
Best advice ... when prying the propolised frames out of the hive _do_not_ pry_against_the_ side_ or_ end_ of_ the_ box_ no matter what kind of joint it is. ce


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

ABK said:


> Second question, it's probably blatantly obvious but I'm just not getting it. Why all the box joints?


The simplest answer is that its the way its been done for a long time, and people have come to equate that with being built properly. 

As recently as 10 or 20 years ago, there was no real good way to make a strong butt joint - glue just didn't hold well on end grain, and they'd eventually fail. With modern glues, a butt joint is going to be stronger than the wood surrounding it - if its done properly. When/if it breaks, it won't break at the joint, but near the joint, and it will be the wood tearing, not the glue.

If they're not glued properly, there might be some strength advantages to the box joints. (they also look nicer)

There are a lot of industries where technology has made certain processes or materials no longer necessary, but people have come to expect them as signs of quality construction - so they still get used. Ford is fighting this sort of thing with their aluminum body panels on their trucks - they're lighter, won't rust, and just as strong as the previous steel panels (and cheaper to make) - but they're a convenient thing for their competitors to point out - "look, their wussy truck is made with aluminum - that's what soda cans are made from - do you want to drive a soda can?"


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't think its accurate to say that ...


> With modern glues, a [HIGHLIGHT]butt joint[/HIGHLIGHT] is going to be stronger than the wood surrounding it - if its done properly.


_Some_ glued joints can certainly be stronger than the surrounding wood, but "butt Joints" in hive bodies are gluing at least one board at the "end grain", which is not as strong as gluing wood _parallel_ to the grain. 

The building industry and code authorities are certainly aware of this - that is why manufactured long boards/beams (from multiple shorter pieces) generally use fingerjoint gluing processes in place of flat butt joints. A fingerjoint photo ...








photo credit

That fingerjoint is pretty close to all face grain joint, and has a large surface glue area. That is a joint where the surrounding wood is more likely to break before the joint itself.

I use rabbet joints with TB glue + plus staples in my hive bodies, and they are plenty durable, but to expect that the glued corner joints are stronger than solid wood is not credible. Note that rabbet joints are a combination of end grain joint and face grain joints.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

It make sense to me that the reason why most people still do box joints is just habit. Whether it's factually necessary or not can only be shown by equivalent uses put on two different boxes with different joints and seeing how they perform over time. But just yesterday I saw a video of a cutout a guy did and put the huge colony in his homemade hive that looks like it was made from 3/8-5/8" plywood. No box joints to speak off. He was very proficient so it makes me think that it wasn't his first day working with bees. That hive design must've worked for him.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Every spring I want to be able to remove the last box from the bottom board and dump off the trash. I don't like attached bottom boards on hives. Nucs? Sure. Hives? No.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

As a starting beekeeper, it's just frustrating how there are old timer beekeepers with decades of experience, and they still have not come to a consensus on what works. Some never take bottoms off. Some do. I guess I just have to do my own experiments and make my own conclusions.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

ABK said:


> It make sense to me that the reason why most people still do box joints is just habit. Whether it's factually necessary or not can only be shown by equivalent uses put on two different boxes with different joints and seeing how they perform over time. But just yesterday I saw a video of a cutout a guy did and put the huge colony in his homemade hive that looks like it was made from 3/8-5/8" plywood. No box joints to speak off. He was very proficient so it makes me think that it wasn't his first day working with bees. That hive design must've worked for him.


Habit has nothing to do with proper wood working techniques. The standard for strong joints in wood working is mortise and tenon joints. Always has been and always will be. A box joint is simply one form of mortise and tenon joint. Sure, there are weaker joints that will work for a while before they fall apart. Serious woodworkers know that metal in out doors wood ultimately just causes problems, unless the metal is aluminum or stainless steel in which case the damage may be minimal providing the glue joint that provides the real strength never fails. Box joints are dirt easy to make and by far the strongest and longest lasting choice for bee boxes. I have such boxes 40 years old with zero nails or staples or screws in them and they are still strong and square. Why make second best when it is so easy to do the job right the first time? If you can not afford the power tools hand cut them. It is not hard to hand cut them. Easier then hand cutting a rabbett.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Do you have a picture of this 40 year old box? I'm just curious to see what that thing looks like. 

There's no argument that that's the strongest way you can make your box. Just for me, I have a reciprocating saw, jig saw, rotary saw, and still don't think it would be easy for me to make these joints. I guess if I knew exactly how it's done I'd be less reluctant. The hardest part I foresee is after cutting into the ends, where I need to make a 90 degree turn. And getting the sizing down so perfectly, with kerf width, for the fingers to all fit in perfectly and the sides not being higher or lower than the other.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Richard Cryberg said:


> Habit has nothing to do with proper wood working techniques. The standard for strong joints in wood working is mortise and tenon joints. Always has been and always will be. A box joint is simply one form of mortise and tenon joint. Sure, there are weaker joints that will work for a while before they fall apart. Serious woodworkers know that metal in out doors wood ultimately just causes problems, unless the metal is aluminum or stainless steel in which case the damage may be minimal providing the glue joint that provides the real strength never fails. Box joints are dirt easy to make and by far the strongest and longest lasting choice for bee boxes. I have such boxes 40 years old with zero nails or staples or screws in them and they are still strong and square. Why make second best when it is so easy to do the job right the first time? If you can not afford the power tools hand cut them. It is not hard to hand cut them. Easier then hand cutting a rabbett.


OP and others asking how to make joints do not have tools already nor the skills to do this work. Hence why other joints are more practical. To tell a new woodworker to cut box joints or dovetails because they are "dirt easy" is misleading. Why make second best? Same reason we use mainly pine and not Brazilian mahogany or Redwood....because we're not building family herilooms and we want to play with bees not wood. I would not waste my time making a box with box joints or dovetails or locking mortise and tenons when I could just buy one for 14 bucks.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

ABK said:


> Do you have a picture of this 40 year old box? I'm just curious to see what that thing looks like.
> 
> There's no argument that that's the strongest way you can make your box. Just for me, I have a reciprocating saw, jig saw, rotary saw, and still don't think it would be easy for me to make these joints. I guess if I knew exactly how it's done I'd be less reluctant. The hardest part I foresee is after cutting into the ends, where I need to make a 90 degree turn. And getting the sizing down so perfectly, with kerf width, for the fingers to all fit in perfectly and the sides not being higher or lower than the other.


exactly. even using a jig on a tablesaw that is not dialed in correctly will not work. box joints need to be dead on. the time you will spend on it is not worth it unless you are set up for it, have too much time on your hands, and free lumber. No argument it is a strong joint but you need to weigh the hours of work it will take without a table saw or bandsaw.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

kaizen said:


> I would not waste my time making a box with box joints or dovetails or locking mortise and tenons when I could just buy one for 14 bucks.


That's my calculation. I've made simple butt joints for some of my boxes and they've held up great (titebond 3 and 3" deck screws). Can't justify the time and equipment to make better joints. Even with simple butt joints when I did the math (calculating my time too) it's less expensive for me to simply buy for $10-$15.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Yep. And given my situation, I'd either have to spend at least an hour on every box with the tools I have or spends hundreds if not thousands of bucks for a proper saw setup. All that for a hive that could 'maybe hopefully' last 10-20 years longer than a hive I'd put together with butt joints? If I was interested thinking about what's going to be in 40 years, I'd be thinking about my retirement plan, not my bees.


Would be cool if someone had a hydraulic press or something to compare the strength of boxes. Say, one made using the conventional finger joints and glue method, vs one with butt joints, glue and screws. I would think given enough and the right kind of screws and priming/painting, the butt joint box would perform very competitively.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

I see Rob recommended Beekeepers workshop. If you go to YouTube abd search for beekeepersworkshop, you will find everything in video form, plus a link to the plans. That's where I started, and have made a few mods along the way. For instance I think my corner joint is simpler and stronger:









I also combine a screened bottom board and hive stand.









BTW, I see no good reason to attach the bottom board to the hive body, and lots of reasons not to.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

ABK said:


> Do you have a picture of this 40 year old box? I'm just curious to see what that thing looks like.
> 
> There's no argument that that's the strongest way you can make your box. Just for me, I have a reciprocating saw, jig saw, rotary saw, and still don't think it would be easy for me to make these joints. I guess if I knew exactly how it's done I'd be less reluctant. The hardest part I foresee is after cutting into the ends, where I need to make a 90 degree turn. And getting the sizing down so perfectly, with kerf width, for the fingers to all fit in perfectly and the sides not being higher or lower than the other.


As I painted it last summer about August so it looks just like any other box. As long as someone keeps it painted it should go another 40 years.

Yeah, with those power tools it would be hard to hand cut box joints. What you need is a back saw, a chisel and a mallet. Exactly the same tools you need to hand cut dovetails.

I use a router and cut 1/2" pins. It probably takes me ten minutes to do the pins on a deep box. But, I will be honest. If you value your time at anything at all per hour it is nuts to make wooden ware for bees. I make my wooden ware simply because I enjoy the wood working and can get as much free wood as I want. But, I would be far better off spending the time on my lathe making wooden bowls I can sell for $300 or so. Or spend the time on my saw making jewelry boxes out of exotic woods I can sell for $300 or so. Or repairing antiques at a ghastly hourly rate. As I hate working I hate doing anything that I am going to bill for. Work is a four letter word.


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