# Russian Bees



## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Pure Russians have some ability to tolerate or control mites. Hybrids do not. They are swarmy too.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

There are stories of colonies with Russian queens being very agressive, but that is not my experience. The first year the USDA released the Russians they were agressive, swarmy, and very different than most bees. After that they became more "main stream", and now I can tell no difference between them and the average Carniolan. The cross between Russians and the other geographic races of bees do lose some resistance to varroa, but they are better than Italians. The Russians build up very fast in the spring and they will begin to swarm earlier than other bees, you have to stay ahead of them.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

I have both russian and Italian bees. As AR Beekeeper says, there's not much diff now between them and the carnolian race, however they do have a resistance to mites. They build up great, but will shut down during a dearth. They like to keep a valid queen cell in the hive even if the queen is fine. Doesn't mean they want to swarm, it's more of an insurance policy for them. If the virgin in the cell isn't needed, they tear it down prior to emergence and get rid of it. They are frugal during winter, and won't really start brooding up till the pollen and nectar both show up. They can take advantage of colder blooming periods as with maple, elm, etc as they tend to fly at colder temps. The only time i've ever heard of russians getting mean was when they were crossed with buckfast bees. Then they really are ill tempered. That info came straight from the man that has tried it, certified russian breeder, Hubert Tubbs aka on beesource = Smithcountybeekeeper


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

He must have been talking about the Texas Buckfast, the crosses I made with the Canadians could be worked with no protection or smoke.


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## Learner (Jan 17, 2015)

One of the books that I have is... *looks around nervously* _Beekeeping for Dummies_. It has a table where it lays out the "characteristics of various common honey bee types". The table has 4 columns:
- Gentleness
- Productivity
- Disease Tolerance
- Wintering in Cold Climates

From 1 to 3, with 1 being the most desirable and 3 the least desirable, "Russian" scores "1" in all four categories. 

(Type: Gentleness / Productivity / Disease Tolerance / Wintering in Cold Climates)
Italian: 1 / 1 / 2 / 2
Russian: 1 / 1 / 1 / 1
Carniolan: 1 / 2 / 2 / 2
Caucasian: 1 / 2 / 2 / 1
Buckfast (hybrid): 2 / 2 / 1 / 1
Starline (hybrid): 2 / 1 / 2 / 2
Midnight (hybrid): 2 / 2 / 2 / 1
Africanized: 3 / 1 / 1 / 3

So, given this matrix, I wondered why would anyone go for another type, especially in the colder areas.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

AR Beekeeper said:


> He must have been talking about the Texas Buckfast, the crosses I made with the Canadians could be worked with no protection or smoke.


Quite possibly. He didn't specify where the Buckfast stock had originated from. Hopefully he'll see the title of the thread and chime in on it. 

In your case AR Beekeeper - Which way were your crosses made with russian queens/buckfast drones or buckfast queens/russian drones ?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Virgins from my Buckfast and flooded the area with Russian drones.


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## Smithcountybeekeeper (May 30, 2014)

hello all when i cross buckfast drone to russian virgin queens the buckfast stock came for texas. russian bee breed have lots of time and money in these bees and we are working to make the lines better each year. we need to hear from beekeeper like you guys. hubert tubbs smith county beekeeper


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

Figure out how much that Russian queen costs and how much the shipping is?

Then look at the cost of locally raised queens. Don't get caught up in what books say.

I looked hard at Russian bees and then looked at the cost of maintaining Russian colonies and also the lack of availability of Russian queens when you need one.

It is hard for a queen producer to becomes a Russian breeder as the standards are very.

Look at locally raised VSH stock.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I tried Russians several years ago. I found them no better or worse tempered than other bees, but what I have been told is that if left to out-breed/make their own queens over several generations the Russians will become grouchy. I found that any resistance to Varroa that the Russians may have had did not translate into healthy on all fronts bees. The first and only case of Sac Brood that I've had was in the Russian Stock. (observed by Maine State Apiarist)

I think the economic necessity of needing product to sell caused the Russian bee to be pushed onto the US Market before the stock was ready as I like to say for prime time. I spent time and money trialling my Russians and they didn't work out for me. I have not been inclined to repeat my efforts with the Russian Stock. And yes my stock came from a RBBA breeder.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How come they are not more widespread?

First, bees differ more from colony to colony than from race to race. So picking a particular race may have a lot less impact than you think. Second, several of the traits of the Russians I have seen are not desirable for certain applications. 

The Russian bees build up late but explosively. This is not helpful for someone who wants to pollinate almonds as there will not be enough bees. This is also not helpful if you want to sell bees early in the year. The explosive build up later leads to swarming if they are not watched carefully and many commercial beekeepers do not have time to watch them carefully. 

Some of the Russians were defensive. Some in different ways. The ones I had were not so much "stingers" as "followers". They would follow forever and headbutt. It's kind of a pain when you want to go back to the house and you can't get rid of them.

While the concept of finding bees that could survive Varroa was a good one, personally I think they would have been better off choosing from what we have in the US already as they have already been bred for a few centuries to meet our needs.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

A recent article in the American Bee Journal suggested that many bee sellers just sort the bees by color and call them Russians or Italians. 

You can only know that they are true Russians if you see their little fur hats.


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## gfbees13 (Sep 25, 2014)

dsegrest said:


> A recent article in the American Bee Journal suggested that many bee sellers just sort the bees by color and call them Russians or Italians.
> 
> You can only know that they are true Russians if you see their little fur hats.


:lpf:


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> The ones I had were not so much "stingers" as "followers".


The ones I got were "stingers".


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

And Italians are loud, attracted to bread and tomato sauce? :scratch:



dsegrest said:


> A recent article in the American Bee Journal suggested that many bee sellers just sort the bees by color and call them Russians or Italians.
> 
> You can only know that they are true Russians if you see their little fur hats.


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## gfbees13 (Sep 25, 2014)

jcolon said:


> And Italians are loud, attracted to bread and tomato sauce? :scratch:


 :applause: :lpf:


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

drlonzo said:


> I have both russian and Italian bees. As AR Beekeeper says, there's not much diff now between them and the carnolian race, however they do have a resistance to mites. They build up great, but will shut down during a dearth. They like to keep a valid queen cell in the hive even if the queen is fine. Doesn't mean they want to swarm, it's more of an insurance policy for them. If the virgin in the cell isn't needed, they tear it down prior to emergence and get rid of it. * They are frugal during winter, *and won't really start brooding up till the pollen and nectar both show up. They can take advantage of colder blooming periods as with maple, elm, etc as they tend to fly at colder temps. The only time i've ever heard of russians getting mean was when they were crossed with buckfast bees. Then they really are ill tempered. That info came straight from the man that has tried it, certified russian breeder, Hubert Tubbs aka on beesource = Smithcountybeekeeper


[not singling out the esteemed drlonzo, I am just using his statement as a starting point to ask a question]

What does the statement "They are frugal during winter" actually mean? As I understand it, this implies the bees consume less honey during winter than other breeds. But, how much less?? Obviously, it will vary from hive to hive and year to year . . . but are we talking 1lb less honey? 5lbs less honey? 20lbs less? If "frugal" means something small like 1lb less honey, then, while the statement is true, the practical effects are so small as to be meaningless.

So can someone quantify how much less honey "frugal" bees like Russians and Carniolans consume over "regular" bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So can someone quantify how much less honey "frugal" bees like Russians and Carniolans consume over "regular" bees.

Every colony is different. Every winter is different. But I think it's safe to say "a fraction" of the amount of honey that an Italian hive would. Some years that is 1/4 as much or even smaller. Mostly because of two things. One is the size of the cluster. The other is how soon they start rearing brood in the spring. Italians burn it up rearing brood and often that is too early to pay off if you want honey. But of course if you want early bees it could pay off very well.


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## Smithcountybeekeeper (May 30, 2014)

hello all russian bees do go to almonds because coy honey farms send 5 trail loads every year and they make honey with 10,000 hives. we have had russian hives to not used the honey in the top box and beekeeper in the northeast told me that the russian bees do better than other strains. every year orders grow bigger and bigger for russian bees so the russian bee beeder are doing something right.smith county beekeeper


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

shinbone: "But, how much less?? Obviously, it will vary from hive to hive and year to year . . . but are we talking 1lb less honey? 5lbs less honey? 20lbs less? If "frugal" means something small like 1lb less honey, then, while the statement is true, the practical effects are so small as to be meaningless."

I can overwinter Carniolanx bees in 2 high medium 10 frame hives. I may have to feed them come March but probably not.

There is no way I could get away with this setup using Italian bees. Italian bees go into winter with big populations and may still even be brooding when the Carniolanx bees have stopped weeks before and are at their winter popoulation level. From my experience the Italian bees consume more than 1/2 their winter stores before winter even gets started. They also begin brooding in spring much earlier than the Carniolan bees and are likely to run through their winter stores before forage is available. Last spring they got caught brooding to early and had problems when the spring turned out to be longer and colder than usual (like a month late). I normally have to feed the Italian bees in late winter, especially in early spring when they are brooding. The Carniolan bees are content to wait 3 or 4 more weeks to get going.
2 medium high 10 framers go into winter with +- 45lbs of stores for the Carniolans.
The Italian bees winter in 3 med. high 10 framers with +- 70lbs of stores and may need feeding or in 1 deep+1 med 10 framers with +- 60lbs of stores and will certainly need feed.

i do not have any Russian bees.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Smithcountybeekeeper said:


> hello all russian bees do go to almonds because coy honey farms send 5 trail loads every year and they make honey with 10,000 hives. we have had russian hives to not used the honey in the top box and beekeeper in the northeast told me that the russian bees do better than other strains. every year orders grow bigger and bigger for russian bees so the russian bee beeder are doing something right.smith county beekeeper


I can tell you from working with my Russians, they aren't hard on the stores at all. I checked 10 hives today while it was warm and I could open up the tops. None of the 10 had even started into the upper honey stores at all. Every hive had the cluster right below the heart of the honey stores above, yet had not touched them so far. Each hive has a great cluster of bees, nearly 5 frames each at this point. 

So as for being frugal, YES they are. However, on the other hand I've an Italian colony that is in the same shape with their stores too. None of these have had winter patties or sugar cakes on them either.


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

dsegrest said:


> A recent article in the American Bee Journal suggested that many bee sellers just sort the bees by color and call them Russians or Italians.
> 
> You can only know that they are true Russians if you see their little fur hats.


Or rather sort the queens by color and call them Italian(yellow) or carniolan(black) LOL


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

I think Russians would be a good choice for Colorado. They do explode and go from overwintering mode to swarm mode really quickly, and when they start swarming man can they swarm. If you could deal with that, I think they would be a good fit for Colorado. 

I decided not to keep Russians because I think Italians work better for me right where I live. I have a beekeeper friend who lives not far away but has a different nectar flow who likes Russian bees. She is also completely treatment-free and has good hive survival.

I kept some and did not really find them to be aggressive. Try to get pure Russian stock queens from a member of the Russian Bee Breeders.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If the Russians were more popular and in demand by buyers, the people breeding them would be more widespread and they would rapidly get cheaper. The reason they are not popular as many people had problems with them swarming and or being overly defensive. People buy what works for them and don't go back to what didn't work for them. I got some mite resistant queens that were heavy on the Russian breeding and the outcrosses are often volunteers to be broken down into two frame nucs and given queens of a more agreeable lineage.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Vance G said:


> If the Russians were more popular and in demand by buyers, the people breeding them would be more widespread and they would rapidly get cheaper. The reason they are not popular as many people had problems with them swarming and or being overly defensive. People buy what works for them and don't go back to what didn't work for them. I got some mite resistant queens that were heavy on the Russian breeding and the outcrosses are often volunteers to be broken down into two frame nucs and given queens of a more agreeable lineage.


As someone who has witnessed the demand for Russians fall from the "got to have some of those " status into the deep dark tank of has beens I can assure you that Vance is dead on for the reasons why.

Besides the Coys their isn't any operation I know of who run over a thousand hives and call themselves a "russian" operation. Are they out there?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Vance G said:


> The reason they are not popular as many people had problems with them swarming and or being overly defensive.


While this is surely true, I think there is more to the failure of Russians to be accepted into mainstream beekeeping. I see that the Hardemans from Mt Vernon, Ga (long term package suppliers to Kelley) do a land office business in Russian 'hybrids'. One of the issues, to my thinking, is the restrictive requirements to produce quality pure Russians. One must commit their entire queen rearing to Russians...and do so long enough to have a high degree of pure Russian drones in their mating yards. Most sizeable, established queen producers aren't willing to abandon all of their existing lines and hope that they can meet the genetic purity required to claim 'pure Russians'. Which in turn means that those who accept the restrictions must be relatively small producers. The ones I know sell every queen they can produce to the point of turning away orders every year. 
So, in my opinion, one of the reasons that the Russians have never been accepted on a big scale, is, in part because of limited supply. And because of the highly restrictive nature of their production, I don't see that changing.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

beemandan said:


> the Hardemans from Mt Vernon, Ga (long term package suppliers to Kelley) do a land office business in Russian 'hybrids'.


Those would be the "stingers" I got.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

cg3 said:


> Those would be the "stingers" I got.


As Russian hybrids this is one of the common complaints. Another is the loss of much of their varroa tolerance qualities. And, to some degree, outfits like Hardeman that promote and sell Russian hybrids have done more to damage the reputation of the pure lines.


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## pgayle (Jan 27, 2008)

I bought 2 queens from Velbert Williams in Heavener OK in 2009 and again in 2010. I have not treated for mites, and I still have colonies descended from both those lines. One of those has stayed in the same spot in the beeyard, requeening itself and carrying on, since 2009. They consistently give me a good honey crop. I have been very happy with them. I don't know where Velbert gets his breeder queens from, but the queens he sells are mated in southeast Oklahoma, and my bees are in east central OK just a few miles east of the Arkansas line. Yes they are a bit swarmy and you have to watch them. They are not aggressive, but I don't think I would work them in shirtsleeves. They do winter frugally. 

They have for the most part retained Russian characteristics although I occasionally get a colony that seems less Russian. I had one colony that I noted to "breed like italians", with a huge brood nest in the middle of our oklahoma July/august dearth a couple of years ago when the rest were shut down. That colony is now dead despite feeding. Nature has a way of sorting things out. 

I love my "russian mutts" and I think they are great for this area.


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## bxtplus (Jun 8, 2012)

I acquired some "Russian" bees shortly after USDA released them . (Queens came form Andy Webb Calvert Apiaries in AL) Explosive build-up very difficult to keep in my hives. No more aggressive than other bees per se. At that time it would have been difficult for me to comment on their frugality as I doubt I had any of the original queens after the first season. Fast forward to the present. I currently have both pure Russians from certified breeders and hybrids as a result of mating with survivor bees, Italians, Carniolans. The hybrids may be a bit hotter than some but certainly not overly aggressive or unmanageable. The temper of a hive is highly variable. A veil and a bit of smoke goes a long way. Those colonies headed by pure Russians have been good bees. While not the top producing colonies, highest survival has Russian in the mix. That assumes a solid five plus months of winter last year! I keep adding more Russian queens each year from different RBBA members and have not been disappointed. The Russians are a work in progress as with VSh etc. AS AR stated above "stay ahead of them". But isn't this true for all our colonies? There are certainly plenty of good genetics out there beyond the Russians but they certainly are worth consideration.


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## pgayle (Jan 27, 2008)

beemandan said:


> As Russian hybrids this is one of the common complaints. Another is the loss of much of their varroa tolerance qualities. And, to some degree, outfits like Hardeman that promote and sell Russian hybrids have done more to damage the reputation of the pure lines.


I don't understand the argument. What does "Pure" have to do with it? I don't hear that about any of the other races, just the Russians. 

If I have "Russian Mutts" the genes, good and bad, will spread into the local ferals, and one would think that the ferals that survive would have some degree of varroa tolerance. My managed colonies that fail to retain some degree of varroa tolerance don't survive, because I don't treat them. If I buy from someone who is raising Russians, whether or not they selling other races, their drones and swarms contribute to the local population and the strong will survive. Isn't that what most of us want? Bees that survive without treatments?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

pgayle said:


> I don't understand the argument. What does "Pure" have to do with it? I don't hear that about any of the other races, just the Russians.


First....as far as I'm concerned....it isn't an argument. I don't know anything about your mutts and their qualities. I have some Russian genetics in my yards but they are so watered down by now as to be totally mutts too. 
Having said that....the idea of crossbreeding and resulting changes in behavior is not limited to Russians. Apis mellifera scutellata, the African honey bee is, as I understand it, somewhat defensive. When mated with a European subspecies they will often produce bees of excessive or even dangerous levels of defensive behavior. That's why that particular mix is referred to as 'Africanized' honey bees. 
A similar thing often happens when VSH selected bees interbreed with nonselected bees. The VSH characteristics tend to get watered down quickly and soon lost. 
The Russian Queen Breeders Assn goes to great lengths to assure that their members manage breeding stock in areas saturated with Russian drones. They will *argue* that the fundamental varroa tolerant qualities are quickly lost when mating occurs in non Russian areas. Those mixed offspring also have a reputation for being more defensive than the pure strains.
I am not denigrating your, surely, fine bees. I am simply repeating the conclusions of the USDA on the need to maintain a pure line to effect the varroa tolerant qualities of the bees that they imported from eastern Russia.


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## pgayle (Jan 27, 2008)

They aren't all fine. Some die. I should have said "discussion" and not "argument". 

I just realized you're in Georgia. You have a point about the ferals and Africanization. The africanization is not a _huge_ problem here. Yet.

I understand keeping the breeder queens pure. From the standpoint of this hobby beekeeper, though, I am happy to take second or third generation Russians and let nature sort 'em out.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

pgayle said:


> I just realized you're in Georgia. You have a point about the ferals and Africanization. The africanization is not a _huge_ problem here. Yet.


Africanization is not a problem here either. I was only replying to the idea that hybridized bees, i.e. a mixture of subspecies, don't always have qualities similar to either parent species. And to the point that according to some, this applies to Russians behaviorally and varroa tolerance. 
As far as allowing nature to sort it all out...this has been the topic of many, many, often heated threads on Beesource. In the case of 'pure' Russians, they've had a century of varroa selection pressure in eastern Russia.


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## ToddFiala (Dec 23, 2010)

I have a question about the "just in case" or "emergency" queen cells that Russian colonies produce. At what point do the workers tear them down if they do not need them? Before or after they are capped?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I have read about and heard about the just in case cells, but every time my Russians made them they swarmed.


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## Smithcountybeekeeper (May 30, 2014)

to all the just in case cell were in the early lines that was brought in at the begaining.the lines now have that breed out of them but if the beekeeper does not check on the bees than they well raise more cells .there is lots of bad news about russian bees but they save my company . smith county beekeeper hubert tubbs


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

When I had the Russians, the just-in-case cells did not necessarily indicate swarming. In fact, they were always there. 

Also, even though I don't keep "Russians" any longer, I have caught some swarms that sure acted like Russians and were dark. I do think the genes are working their way into the local gene pool, at least to some extent. It could be that shutting down brood rearing during August is a good trait to have in Oklahoma.

I do think it is possible that, for whatever reason, the local bees in NE Oklahoma are naturally more Varroa resistant for some reason or another. It may be a lack of commercial beekeepers in this area. We have quite a few treatment-free beekeepers who may have helped matters too. Pgayle is one of several who are active in our bee club.


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## ToddFiala (Dec 23, 2010)

I was just thinking that if the queen cells are capped before the workers tear them down, and the current queen is laying well, then maybe some of the queen cells could be harvested to create nucs? What do you think?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

That is something I do. Swarm cells are raised to be perfect queens. Just handle them with care as they are fragile right after having been capped and it is hard to tell how mature the cell is. Just place it with a couple frames of bees and capped brood in a nuc box with a very reduced entrance and you are well on your way to having another colony.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

ToddFiala said:


> I was just thinking that if the queen cells are capped before the workers tear them down, and the current queen is laying well, then maybe some of the queen cells could be harvested to create nucs? What do you think?


I have done exactly that. Those queen cells produce very nice queens with all the love they get while being made in that big hive. I've got several of them out in my apiary. 

So the answer, YES for sure!


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

Originally Posted by ToddFiala 
I was just thinking that if the queen cells are capped before the workers tear them down, and the current queen is laying well, then maybe some of the queen cells could be harvested to create nucs? What do you think?



drlonzo said:


> I have done exactly that. Those queen cells produce very nice queens with all the love they get while being made in that big hive. I've got several of them out in my apiary.
> 
> So the answer, YES for sure!


 Wow , this thread has been very informative for me . Especially noted that they make "backup" queens , and I'm planning a split ... I'm also very fortunate to have a Russian queen breeder living less than 10 miles away . I have his genetics in my current <first> hive - which I plan to split as soon as we can this spring - and I'm sure the same genes are in the local feral pool since he's been doing this <treatment-free> for the last 12 years . The plan is to let the new queen open mate , then split the hive again a month or so later and introduce another of his queens . This should give me enough genetic diversity to keep the lines reasonably pure , especially if I get one new queen every year or every other . I hadn't seen more than 3 honey bees here in 10 years until we got ours ... which may help keep the Russian line from being diluted . I also expect a jump in wild fruit production , especially blackberries . And my garden ... this year is going to be very interesting .


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

They don't really make backup queens, or at least not any differently than other bees. Russians (at least the ones I had) keep empty queen cups in the hive all the time. 

When bees swarm, they pretty much all make extra queen cells. That is what people are talking about making nucs with. 

Also, the workers don't tear down queen cells unless the queens have emerged or one queen emerged first and went around killing the others before they emerged. 

Bottom line, when bees swarm they make multiple queen cells, and a good way to make lemonade out of this particular lemon is to make splits and/or use the queen cells. You can take a strong hive that is about to swarm and divide it into 5 or 6 nucs sometimes.


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

OK I misunderstood , thought that Russians were actually making queen cells and capping them when they weren't about to swarm . I did notice my hive had some last summer , got me all nervous even though there were no other signs of an incipient swarm . Can ya tell I'm a newby ?


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## ToddFiala (Dec 23, 2010)

I have used swarm cells to make nucs in the past with good success. I agree that they are very well fed, as hives that swarm usually have plenty of resources. My question was about the trait I have read about where Russians intentionally start queen cells as a backup so they don't have the long period without a queen if something happens and they have to start from young larvae or eggs. One place I recently read about it was on Foley's Russian Bees website. He did not specify at what stage they end a started queen cell if they are not needed. I emailed him about this and he did not respond, so I thought this would be a good place to ask.


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## Learner (Jan 17, 2015)

NeilV said:


> Russians (at least the ones I had) keep empty queen cups in the hive all the time.


Is it easy to see whether they are empty or not?

_Edit: Obviously it's about the capped and uncapped cells. Doh!_


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

One needs to learn the difference between supercedure cells(leave them be) and swarm cells( better split now)
I have learned to super early and heavy in my Russians(dandylion flow) and make early splits before swarm season(late April in CT) from the boomers.My honey procuction does'nt seem to be affected and I rarely see swarm cells.If I do,I imediately pull the Queen and sealed brood for a split(cutting Q cells) and leave the best looking swarm cells alone in the hive.This does set the colony back a bit but at least the bees don't head for the trees!

Did any one else( besides Hubert and I) attend the Russian conference in Medina last Oct?If not,you missed a fantastic opportunity.Well worth the 900 mi round trip for me.
A few things I picked up:
Due to drifting,in mixed yards(Rus and non Rus) Rus colonies will have higher mite loads.
Russians are not Treatment Free.Many (certfied) southern breeders treat their honey production hives because Varroa builds over their long season, but Do Not treat the breeder and testing hives.
I thought I heard that some one calculated that one Rus hive overwintered(in the north I believe) on 18 lbs of honey. Hubert,did I hear that wrong?Do you recall the particulars?

There is a difference between Q breeders and Q producers.The certified breeders sell pure stock ,anything else is a crap shoot and most likely a RusX.
(note:F1 RusX will produce pure Rus drones so you can maintain the genetics in your colonies if you are diligent and purchase a certified breeder Q every year.The lines are rotated yearly.)

Support these guys.It's a lot of work and their standards are very high.They are looking for more breeders to join the program but,like I said,their standards are very high.200 hive minimum and isolated mating yards to start. Any one interested should contact one of the members.


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## krista45036 (Oct 7, 2014)

will be starting 1st hives with pkg russians in early May. do i need to plan for swarms in the first season? IOW, is late may past the swarm season for the SW Ohio/Cincy area?

maybe i better build some extra hives 

there is already some comb in the hives, so they wont be starting from scratch


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

krista45036 said:


> will be starting 1st hives with pkg russians in early May. do i need to plan for swarms in the first season? IOW, is late may past the swarm season for the SW Ohio/Cincy area?
> 
> maybe i better build some extra hives
> 
> there is already some comb in the hives, so they wont be starting from scratch


Normally you don't have to worry about package colonies swarming the first year. That said you should always make sure they have plenty of space for them to expand into. Of course, your particular nectar flows, for the most part, will determine how fast they expand.


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## Ketuel (May 1, 2015)

I have 2 hives of Italians, yet I will be getting 3 queens in June. I want to use some of the Italian Brood to make 3 hives or Requeen one of the Italian hives. Can the Russians live near the Italians (4 to 8 feet away). Or do they need to be far away from each other? 
Thanks,
Ketuel


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Ketuel said:


> Can the Russians live near the Italians (4 to 8 feet away).
> Ketuel


Yes


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

The only issue you may have is fall robbing. The Italian hives go into winter with large numbers. The Russian and Carni hives go in with smaller numbers and makes them more prone to robbing. Just mitigate by reducing the entrances on all the hives.


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