# Tall Hive OA Vaporizing



## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

BeeTeach,

I built a 2" high shim for a NUC and another one for a 10 frame Lang and treat from the top only. Early in the day and late in the day are optimum times for treatment because the maximum population is "home", but sometimes you have got to do what you can when you can.

Steve


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## BeeTeach (Nov 10, 2005)

Did you just notch the shim wide enough for the vaporizer? Does the vaporizer sit on top of the frames or do you place a tin or metal protective plate for it to sit on? Just thinking about melting or burning wax and propolis.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

BeeTeach said:


> Did you just notch the shim wide enough for the vaporizer? Does the vaporizer sit on top of the frames or do you place a tin or metal protective plate for it to sit on? Just thinking about melting or burning wax and propolis.


Yes, just a notch for the vap. Just use a 1/4 piece of plywood about 3" x 3" for the vap to sit on to keep frames from scorching.......


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

snl said:


> Yes, just a notch for the vap. Just use a 1/4 piece of plywood about 3" x 3" for the vap to sit on to keep frames from scorching.......


An option is to cover with plexi glass and you can see how vapor is mixing and when pan is empty. 

Costs somewhat more but interesting to see what is happening.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I have a Varrox wand and I have four box tall hives at the moment (3 deep 10-frames and 1 medium on top). It's my standard winter stack.

The Varrox seems to completely cook off a full teaspoon dose (four times 1/4 tsp/box) and I can see a bit of vapor sneaking out of the uppermost joints if there's a new box without propolis on it.

So I'm not sure you need to do it from the top as well as the bottom. Though I suppose it wouldn't hurt, just would double the time it takes.

How did we get the idea you needed to do it from top AND bottom? I was worried about increasing the dose sufficiently to account for all four boxes at once, but I've seen no issues with it. And you'd be putting the same amount of OA in the hive if you did it in two, half-sized vapes.

I am done now for the routine treatment season (I still plan to do the one-off cycle in December.) But next year I could fiddle around with a top position - maybe it has some advantages over what I'm doing now. I think I'd want a second wand (good news for SNL!) and maybe a stronger battery to run them both at once, or do twice the cycles.

Have I mentioned how much I love my Varrox? It leaves every other wand I've owned, or seen, in the dust.

And a word to the wise re watching the propagation of the vapors in a glass-topped (or plexi-topped) stack. Regular readers will have read my constant nagging about wearing a proper mask and etc., and I always do. But I had the not-unique idea of watching the sublimation, too. I made up a dummy box like my stacks and topped it with a large single pane window laid flat on top so I could watch. 

However, the too-close for common sense position of my face and my sharply bent neck angle somehow made a tiny alteration in the normally tight seal of my mask and I got one - and thankfully, only one - tiny whiff of OA's "vapor". It was really awful and scarey, not at all like something smokey that you could cough up and exhale out. It made me even more of a mask-freak than I was before. I won't even let someone observe my vaporizations from 50 feet away, without a mask. *ALWAYS WEAR YOUR MASK! *

Enj.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

BeeTeach,

I think that your questions in Post#3 relate to my previous comments in Post #2. I had a life today so I'm just getting back to this thread. 

I administer OAV treatment on the top of the "stack". On my 2 inch high shims for both the NUC's and the 10F Langs I cut a slot at half height to insert the OA pan through and I also nailed a small block of wood on the inside just below the slot to act as a bench to support the bottom of the pan when it gets hot. I stapled a small scrap of aluminum flashing on the top of this bench and the bottom of the slot to dissipate the heat of the pan and prevent it from burning the wood. (supposedly the pan may get up to 700 deg. F). Like enjambres, I use the Varrox type of OAV tool but I have modified the handle somewhat so that the hot pan extends further into the hive and is not in contact with any woodenware and thus it does not char the frame top bars. 

Steve


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## BeeTeach (Nov 10, 2005)

Great idea Steve! I didn't think about running a board down the middle to use as a base. I'll build a couple of these today. Thanks!


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## Cessna180 (Jan 31, 2009)

Hey Folks,
The Varrox is a great device. I have used mine since the Spring vaporizing mites. I did alcohol washes to determine mite loads and I have Russian Bees. Now the Russians are suppose to be more tolerant of mites and winter better here in the NW. But let me tell ya mites kill Russians also. I had three hives get killed by mites this year. The hives were strong which is the perfect enviornment for mites. Lots of brood = lots of mites. So what I'm saying is, I had an infestation of 4.5% to 5.6% mites in most of my hives by the end of summer. End of summer is also when the mite loads are the highest. I should of hit them with the vap in July. The mites win if you don't treat in some way. The Vap is the least intrusive and least exspensive of all treatments for the backyard and sideliner that I have found. I would LOVE to be treatment free but I have to much invested in my bees to lose all my bees and have sick bees and spread desease to other beeks in the area. IE: swarm mite bombs. 
Use the Varrox Vaporizer as prescribed and it works great. Were a mask also, don't try and reinvent the wheel, if the instruction say were a mask, by all means wear it. Or don't; it will only takes one wiff to convince you.
I sell the Varrox Vaporizer here in the NW. If you want one I have them. It's easy to use and very effective. Leaves no trace in the comb and kills mites without opening the hive. Good for winter treatment. Or package treatment.
I was going to treat with the OA by drench but I didn't like going into the hives in the winter broodless state and pouring syrup on the bees. Then I found out the syrup hurts their stomach lining. So that was out for me. 
Is there a need to put shims and such on the bottom of the vaporizers? I don't and it works great. Also, you can use it from above but don't over dose the hive. IE: top and bottom treatment. Treat when the bees are home and moving around in the hive works best. Morning and late afternoon or when ever you have the time. 
Please do a mite check and report back what you have in %. Randy Oliver has a great alcohol device in his latest articles that just came out. Remember the Vap only gets the phoretic mites, 80% of mites are still in the cells. 
Learn the life cycle of the mites. There's some real good videos (cartoon like) on youtube.
The only good mite is a vaporized mite.
The Europeans and the rest of the world have been using the Vapor for years.
If you want a vaporizer fast let me know. [email protected]


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Bear Creek Steve said:


> (supposedly the pan may get up to 700 deg. F).


At 700 the wood would go into flames.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Ace,

The Varrox instructions stats that ...the vaporizer reaches temperatures of up to 400 deg. C ... Which equates to 752 deg. F. The ignition temperature of most woods is in the range of 200 to 250 deg. F. And yes, the vaporizer hot pan did char my wooden shims in the vicinity of the entry slot. That is why I built the bench on the inside of the shim and covered it with a piece of aluminum flashing, to dissipate heat and reduce charring. I later modified the handle of the vaporizer so that the "hot pan" would extend further inside the shim and away from any wood. FYI, the "burn time" of the OAV pan is 2 1/2 minutes. 

Steve


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

enjambres said:


> I have a Varrox wand and I have four box tall hives at the moment (3 deep 10-frames and 1 medium on top). It's my standard winter stack.
> 
> ... I'm not sure you need to do it from the top as well as the bottom. Though I suppose it wouldn't hurt, just would double the time it takes.
> 
> ...


The Varrox directions ALSO state that a hive can be treated from either the top *OR* bottom. Nothing is said about both. Converting a shim (or old super) would be easy - as Steve suggests.

Steve - is that for 1/4 ( 1 gram) , or 1/2 tsp ( 2 grams)?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Bear Creek Steve said:


> Ace,
> 
> The Varrox instructions stats that ...the vaporizer reaches temperatures of up to 400 deg. C ...


http://www.wonderpediamagazine.co.uk/science/what-temperature-does-wood-burn

300 C
You don't want to create a heat sink and cool the vessel down that is counter productive to what you are trying to accomplish. Use an insulator like a ceramic plate. That will protect the wood and not draw heat out of the vessel that you are using to vaporize the acid.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Colobee,

FYI: snl has been my mentor on much of this OAV adventure.

I am now in my winter stack configuration and it consists of several colonies with one deep and two mediums, but the bulk of my production hives are three mediums. My NUC's going into winter are five over five's. In every case I used only one gram of OA and all were through a slot in a two inch high shim at the top of the stack. My standard lower and upper winter entrances are one inch wide and 3/8 inch high and that is too small to accommodate the somewhat over sized Varrox hot pan. Thus I just made three of what I needed (shims) so when I get started and I'm on a roll I am setting one hive up, I'm cooking OA in another, and I'm letting the third one sit for 10 minutes full of vapor. It still takes time to go through a bunch of hives, and my timers are beeping all the time. I did do a fourth inoculation yesterday because I saw more mites than expected on my 72 hour sticky board.

Acebird:

You are correct, a ceramic plate would be a good move but I had the aluminum flashing and snips right there on my work bench. I may need to visit the Habitat ReStore and pick up a few bathroom counter ceramic tiles for when I build Version II.

Steve


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Ace, could you share with us your experience with oxalic acid vaporization?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

The Varrox will only reach temps of 400 c (752 f) when connected to the battery for a very long time (10 minutes). When connected for only 2.5 minutes the Varrox temp is in the 150 c (302 f) range.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Bear Creek Steve said:


> Acebird:
> 
> You are correct, a ceramic plate would be a good move


If it were UL approved it would have some measure to prevent a fire built into the design. I don't think SNL knows how far he has it neck sticking out in a product liability case.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I don't think SNL knows how far he has it neck sticking out in a product liability case.


And you do Ace?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> If it were UL approved it would have some measure to prevent a fire built into the design.


:scratch:


Hardly.  Electric kitchen stoves are UL approved - they certainly *do not* "_have some measure to prevent a fire built into the design_. "


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

BeeTeach said:


> I have several hives that are taller than two deeps. When I use an oxalic acid vaporizer should I treat with two grams first from the bottom, then a couple of grams from the top under the inner cover? Does anyone use some type of shim when vaporizing from the top? Also, is treating in the early morning a better time when bee traffic is at a minimum and more bees can benefit? Thanks!


Re-direct, back to OP  : 

1: The directions say 1-2 grams, top *OR* bottom ( not both).

2:The directions suggest a shim for top application ( actually, it's a "must"). I modified an old super.

3: Treat early (mid) AM, or late afternoon, if possible. You want as many bees ( & any mites) in the hive as possible.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Acebird said:


> If it were UL approved it would have some measure to prevent a fire built into the design. I don't think SNL knows how far he has it neck sticking out in a product liability case.


Only the pan gets to 700 degrees. I have noticed that when I work hives that have been treated, there is a little darkening on the bottom frames by the entrance. Not enough that you would call it a char, but more than you can clean off.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I have my Varrox ready to go. I'll use it when warranted. I built a top box out of an old super, and was experimenting/testing it with some old boxes. Suspending the Varrox in the middle of a super ( to treat from the top) eliminates much of my concern about putting that kind of heat beneath combs, etc..

That raised a related question ( & sorry, not to hi-jack your thread, BT - I thought you might also want to know  ) & Please excuse me if this has already been addressed - I haven't seen it mentioned, but I can't keep up with all the Info/inflow here.

If one pre-treated some (empty) brood frames, then inserted them into a hive at a later date, would it still have a similar effect? If I understand correctly, the OAV crystals are spread throughout the hive, and the bees are "treated" as they haul them out. 

Would this be barking up the wrong tree? I know it may not be practical going into, or during, winter ( depending on one's locale). If it worked, installed packages or swarms could/would be "pre-treated???


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Interesting thought, Colobee. I wonder if they'd absorb too much moisture and not have quite the same effect? Just guessing.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Colobee said:


> If one pre-treated some (empty) brood frames, then inserted them into a hive at a later date, would it still have a similar effect? If I understand correctly, the OAV crystals are spread throughout the hive, and the bees are "treated" as they haul them out.


Sorry, no......... the crystals eventually break down........


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Colobee,

Thanks for the "anti-drift bump" with some pertinent and relevant factual information. We need to eliminate the "drift".

Steve


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

JW, That's a good point. Most folks have much higher average humidities than around here. I could run my dehydrator through a stack of a dozen, but would it be worth the trouble? 

It also appears that top-vaping may be just as easy, (and probably more effective?). Many of my production hives have propolis limiting/inhibiting bottom treatment access. 

Steve - some drift seems inevitable. I have my own "treatment" for that...:thumbsup:

Larry - how long is "eventually"? ( taking Jw's concern into account) Now I'm just curious!

It was just a passing thought - (like a fart in the wind  )


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Colobee said:


> Would this be barking up the wrong tree? I know it may not be practical going into, or during, winter ( depending on one's locale). If it worked, installed packages or swarms could/would be "pre-treated???


You can treat packages by placing the vaporizer on the ground with the package and covering it all with a cardboard box. (Now, don't let the vap touch the cardboard, ok....) 1/2 gram will do ........


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

To clarify, my post # 25 referred to Colobee's Post # 20. Fat moving things get out of whack rapidly.

Steve


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Colobee said:


> Larry - how long is "eventually"? ( taking Jw's concern into account) Now I'm just curious!
> 
> It was just a passing thought - (like a fart in the wind  )


OA is pretty stable at room temperature. The crystals will stay until they are dissolved in water or carried away. There is no significant evaporation at room temperature. However, it is the vaporized OA that kills the mites. Merely placing OA crystals in the hive does next to nothing.....


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Ahhh, I see. Thank you! ( The smell has passed...)


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Only because you're upwind! The rest of us are still thinking.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

snl said:


> OA is pretty stable at room temperature. The crystals will stay until they are dissolved in water or carried away. There is no significant evaporation at room temperature. However, it is the vaporized OA that kills the mites. Merely placing OA crystals in the hive does next to nothing.....


I thought that is has been mentioned that residual crystals on comb could help kill mites as they emerge from brood cells "over a couple of days". The above doesn't seem to support that notion at all (and it's one that I never really bought onto, truthfully).

Curious.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

dsegrest said:


> Only the pan gets to 700 degrees. I have noticed that when I work hives that have been treated, there is a little darkening on the bottom frames by the entrance. Not enough that you would call it a char, but more than you can clean off.


I think the bigger issue is the wax in a hive full of wax and honey and the hive being close to a structure.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

dsegrest said:


> Only the pan gets to 700 degrees. I have noticed that when I work hives that have been treated, there is a little darkening on the bottom frames by the entrance. Not enough that you would call it a char, but more than you can clean off.


That pan only gets that hot if left connected to the battery for an extended time.....10 minutes. At 2.5 minutes (when you should disconnect it) it is right around 300f.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

jwcarlson said:


> I thought that is has been mentioned that residual crystals on comb could help kill mites as they emerge from brood cells "over a couple of days". The above doesn't seem to support that notion at all (and it's one that I never really bought onto, truthfully). Curious.


OA "Vapors" are just very, very tiny crystals of OA. They condensate on any of the available surfaces where the mites move around picking up the acid with their feet. This leads to acidose, killing the mite. However, in a couple of days these crystals are either carried out by the bees or are dissolved by the moisture in the hive. So yes, the killing action takes place over a couple of days until the crystals are dissolved or carried out by the bees.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Thanks. I was beginning to wonder about those reports of OA dribble being effective. "A couple of days" suggests pre-treating brood comb would be wasted effort, if they aren't installed ASAP. 

'No worries - I'll vap 'em if, and when they rear their ugly heads . The Varrox is all set :thumbsup:. 

Any reports/opinions as to whether "top" or "bottom" is more effective? The test plume of OAV shot straight up. Saturation seem to be the more important consideration.

'Makes sense to me - perhaps millions of molecules floating around, as opposed to maybe thousands of crystals - an order of magnitude would likely make quite a difference...

OK, I'm done hi-jacking... Carry on!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Colobee said:


> Any reports/opinions as to whether "top" or "bottom" is more effective? The test plume of OAV shot straight up. Saturation seem to be the more important consideration.


Both methods are very effective............ whatever is easiest for you......


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## BeeTeach (Nov 10, 2005)

I contacted Heilyser Technology about using a higher dose for hives with more than two hive bodies and their response is "No, you need max 2 grams of oxalic acid per treatment. This will fill approx 12 cubic feet of volume with acid fog." He also provided me with the attached information with permission to share:


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## BeeTeach (Nov 10, 2005)

I have been using the shims that Bear Creek Steve suggested over the last several weeks to do my OA vaporizing. I have also vaporized from the bottom. Using the shims is a much cleaner process in that wax or propolis doesn't come in contact with the pan prior to it being energized, nor do the bees pile all over it and some of those are fried. The only drawback is that it is necessary to remove the telescoping and inner cover. With the cooler temps though most of the bees don't attempt to fly out if I am cautious and expeditious. Thanks to BCS and all who made suggestions. On another note, and completely off topic, I was ordering some apple tree rootstock yesterday from a fellow that keeps a few hives. He told me that he doesn't have any mites because his bees pollinate the Blue Corn that he grows because it has antioxidant properties. I know.......I'm not convinced either......this is my 20th year in bees......but this is a new one for me.


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## almo3ani (Mar 22, 2015)

Bear Creek Steve said:


> BeeTeach,
> 
> I built a 2" high shim for a NUC and another one for a 10 frame Lang and treat from the top only. Early in the day and late in the day are optimum times for treatment because the maximum population is "home", but sometimes you have got to do what you can when you can.
> 
> Steve


could you please share photos of the shims you have built for nucs and 10 frame hives


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