# newly created nuc & varroa



## timsch (Apr 2, 2016)

I created a nuc a couple of nights ago and introduced the queen in a box yesterday. I looked at the nuc entrance just now and noticed a number of bees dead at the entrance. 

I have three hives and have treated (with Oxalic acid using the drip method) two of them after getting a 2-plus% varroa count. One of the two was queenless. I just looked now and there are many dead bees in front of the queenless one. I had taken two frames of honey from that hive for the nuc. I took two frames of brood from the other of the two treated hives. Most of the bees I put into the nuc were from the hive with brood, but I'm sure there were some from the queenless hive.

I was going to leave the nuc untouched for 10 days, but I suppose that I should pop the top now. 

I don't know if I should use a drip OA treatment on the nuc, pull the boxed queen out and try to keep her alive for a couple of days while I set up another nuc, or just leave it be.

What is recommended?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

You are making the assumption that the problem is connected with the OA treatment, and it might be something else.

However, dribbling OA is reputed to be harder on the bees than vaporizing it, and for both of them you need a series of treatments (three is the usual number, seven days apart) whenever there is capped brood in the colony.

It used to be said that dribbling should only be done once per year (so obviously a series was out) but I see now that Randy Oliver has relaxed that "rule" after making some tests.

I think that as long as you have enough bees left in the nuc (or can add some from another hive to make up for the losses) you will OK to to leave the queen and let it develop. You just need to watch the population levels and top them up if needed to make sure the queen still has a viable number of bees to care for her eggs/larvae and to defend the hive and forage (unless you are feeding, as well.)

I don't think OA dribble will continue to cause issues, just the bees that were treated may be weakened and not as long-lived as otherwise. The honey I think is fine and the capped brood will be fine (as OA doesn't reach under the cappings.) So those bees will emerge unaffected (but also with mites that are unaffected.)

I think I would also consider some other method of mite control besides _dribbling_ OA. The problem as I understand it, is that dribbling OA in syrup causes the bees to eat some of the OA which is hard on them. That's why when I _vaporize_ OA I try to make sure I don't have supplemental feed exposed to the vapors. But honestly, the pollen stores, open nectar, etc., are all subject to the OA during vaporization - and they are all food - so I'm not sure why I bother.

It could also be that if your pre-treatment level of mites was above 2% that what you are seeing is some other mite-vectored disease issue.

I'd carry on with the nuc, though keep a sharp eye on it to make sure it stays well-populated.

Bees oughtta come with little messages about exactly what's up with them!

Enj.


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## timsch (Apr 2, 2016)

Thanks so much enjambres. My assumption was that it was connected with the Varroa, not specifically the OA. I'll keep an eye on the bee population. I did pop the cover last night and saw a number of bees through the rectangular cutout of the inner cover. 

I've had making a vaporizer on my list, but haven't made it a priority yet. If dribbling has a significant downside, that'll push it up the priority list. I hadn't read about negatives of dribbling yet. 

I appreciate the info.


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## timsch (Apr 2, 2016)

I just went to look at the hive and, rather than zero activity at the entrance like yesterday, there was abundant activity. I don't know how much a new nuc will have bees leaving to forage. I have a feeling that these may be robbers. I probably should have put the nuc further way from my other hives. As of now, it is about 30 feet away, facing the opposite direction. The nuc has/had two deep frames of honey. 

I don't know how much danger the nuc bees are in from the robbers. There were a good number of them in the hive, but it certainly was not loaded with them. I'll move it tonight after dusk. 

Any suggestions?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

timsch said:


> I'll move it tonight after dusk.
> 
> Any suggestions?


Either put a robber screen on now or reduce the opening down to one or two bees and move as stated......


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Too much reduction in the hive entrance will caused them to suffocate.
The high heat will kill some cap broods too if not enough foragers to 
fan the hive. Do you think it is wise to close the hive entrance to such a small opening?
I would use a wire screen on one side and the entrance on the other. I would also swap
the hive position with the strong hive if the queen is already released from the cage.


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## timsch (Apr 2, 2016)

I haven't checked the queen box. I just introduced a couple of days ago, so I'd assume she's still in there, but what do I know.... I could look, but I don't want to mess with the nuc much, based on what I've read on this forum.

I went out later in the morning and there was not so much frenzy. I'll still move the hive tonight and put on a screen in the morning.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If she's still inside the cage then I'll just lift it out to see.
If she's out then I want to know that she's still alive inside the hive.
We are now in a critical time in the exchange of season. For my peace of minds I
will do a quick check just to be sure that she is there laying. Do this in late evening when
the sun almost set. The bees will settle down much faster.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Making splits this time of year in the same yard won't work out well.... Bees just go back to the original hives and the split gets robbed out or the bee population drops too almost nothing.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You can still make splits in the same yard but you have to adjust the
hive position and bee population a little to favor the split nuc.
I like to swap the nuc hive position with the parent hive. Now the nuc will
have all the foragers. Then condensed the parent hive to 5-7 frames or more based on
the hive population. Add more drawn frames when the new bees emerged to expand their brood nest.
Without a mated queen I would not do this. Too late in the season now.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

JRG13 is right. Also if you want to make in the yard splits - which I make up several 100 per year - its best to split off the old queen. Bees thank they swarmed and stay with old queen and don't drift back to the old hive as much. Then use new queen to the old hive left in the original spot. Another - why split so late in the season?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Maybe he's thinking we live in a mild winter environment and can 
afford to. The reason for swapping the hive position is to retain all the
foragers in the new nuc hive. The old hive with more bees will put out more foragers in a short
time. Now both sides will have the foragers.


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## timsch (Apr 2, 2016)

sakhoney said:


> JRG13 is right. Also if you want to make in the yard splits - which I make up several 100 per year - its best to split off the old queen. Bees thank they swarmed and stay with old queen and don't drift back to the old hive as much. Then use new queen to the old hive left in the original spot. Another - why split so late in the season?


I didn't make a split. I had a hive go queenless and I purchased a mated queen to requeen. When going to do the introduction, I noticed that there was nothing but drone brood and figured I had laying workers, so came up with plan B, which was to set up a nuc. If all this sounds a bit screwy, well, I'm still pretty far down the learning curve. It's my 2nd year as a beekeeper, but I didn't learn much the 1st year.

I have a couple of acres, and should have put the nuc on the other end of my property, at least.

This morning, I made a robber screen and added a couple of frames with some honey, but they're not full unfortunately. The other two frames that were close to full did get fully robbed out. there are still a good number of bees in the nuc, so they've not all gone back to the parent hive. Since there's not much honey stores in the nuc, I'll have to feed. I have an entrance jar feeder and made a robber screen to accompany that feeder. I'll add that tonight. 

If I get a healthy hive out of this nuc, I'll feel pretty lucky. It seems I'm doing plenty wrong, including going into the hive almost daily up to this point. The environment here is still pretty warm. No cold for another two months.


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## birddog (May 10, 2016)

You may be better off jar feeding through hole in the inner cover


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## timsch (Apr 2, 2016)

I've asked my wife to add a feeder today. I made a robber screen yesterday to go with the feeder. 

The bees seemed to have difficulty getting out of the robber screen yesterday. I didn't see any posts on this when I did a brief search of the forum. How much of an issue is this usually?

Another odd thing, I think, was last night at dusk I saw a good number of bees trying to get into the screen. This was after relatively little activity all through the day. I'd think that the robbers would do their robbing during the day and go back to the pirate ship come dusk. Is this a correct assumption? 

How long do foragers stay out? Would they be out a good part of the day and then come back near dark? Would they perhaps have forgotten how they got out?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Bees taking a day or 2 to learn the robber screen is perfectly normal.

In warm temperatures, bees may return from last flight just after dark, especially if you have flourescent lights around.

Make sure that the feeder is not the Boardman type, but is located well behind the cluster, where it is well-defended.


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## timsch (Apr 2, 2016)

I have been using a boardman type feeder. IIRC, an in-box feeder takes the room of two frames. If I used that, I'd be down to three frames in the nuc....


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Or you can use the baggie feed on the top bars.


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## timsch (Apr 2, 2016)

Thanks for the reminder that there are other options.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

A jar top feeder or a bucket feeder works well for nuc's. You can still stuff 5 or 6 frames in the box, and you can see whether or not if they need Beesweet or other syrup concoction.

I use a commercial-type top with a hole cut to fit the jar top fairly tight. The lid has only 3 very small holes, and is aimed right over the gap between the frames.

The idea is that the robbers have to 1) figure out the screen while being counter-attacked, 2) get past the entire brood nest, 3) steal the honey or syrup, 4) then make it back through the brood nest, and 5) find their way back out the robber screen - not too easily accomplished.


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