# Letting bees eat honey and not HFCS



## NIKKIBEE (Jun 13, 2015)

Does anyone here feed using anything other then high fructose corn syrup or refined sugars? I am new to the beekeeping experience and do not want to use chemicals or modified products. I am interested in hearing all methods, I'm just extremely interested in those who supply their bees with honey. 

Looking forward to chatting


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!

If you have a source of honey that you know is free of AFB spores (American Foulbrood), then feeding honey is fine. That honey preferably comes from your own hives, or other hives that you are confident are AFB-free. But if you are considering buying commercial honey to feed your bees, there is a risk that there could be AFB spores in that honey. AFB does not affect humans, so there is no reason to test/screen honey sold commercially for AFB spores.

If you are going to feed bees, plain granulated sugar is a good choice, and will meet the carbohydrate needs of bees if adequate nectar is not available. Avoid brown colored sugars such as molasses, brown sugar and any 'organic' sugar that is not bright white in color.


Typically, high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is not available anyway unless you wish to buy in very large quantities or pay a higher price than ordinary granulated sugar.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Hello Nikki and welcome to the forum!

I can really appreciate your pure heart and good will when it comes to the bees and the hive products you want to share with your family and loved ones. Nothing teaches you better than the lessons we learn in life. Most of the time I feel I'm wearing the dunce cap.

Good luck with your venture and always try to include the kids. They are our future.


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## NIKKIBEE (Jun 13, 2015)

Rader, 
Thanks for the info! :thumbsup:
I was thinking of just using my honey that they will produce. I know that it will lower my harvest, but hey, if it's better for them, so be it I suppose. 

My concern with white granulated sugar is that 60% of the US sugar comes from GMO sugar beets. We don't do GM foods here at home so I'm not sure how to get around that?


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## NIKKIBEE (Jun 13, 2015)

Beesohappy,

Thanks for the appreciation! It's a lot of work, but like ya said, they are our future. I'm looking forward to the kids finding interest in bees as well. It should be fun


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## Westhill (Jul 26, 2012)

Hi Nikki,
I'm a hobby beekeeper, like you. This is my first year with bees. We also would rather just let our bees eat their own honey, so we plan to not take honey from the bees unless there's more what they need to get through the winter. This means that we may not harvest any honey until next year, when we will have already-drawn comb for our bees and they won't have to spend as much energy making comb, and can make more honey.

For a hobby beekeeper, unless there's some kind of disastrous year, you should be able to just feed your bees their own honey, and after the first year, you should have plenty left over for your family. No sugar needed.

It's a very different situation from that of larger hobbyists/sideliners who want to make money on the honey, or commercial beeks. There's room for everyone in beekeeping.

Good luck and have fun! Our son is 11 and he loves the bees.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

If you buy sugar specifically marked Pure Cane Sugar, you avoid the GMO issue with sugar beets.

You may not have enough honey the first year so you will have to feed some kind of sugar. You need it when you start your hive in the spring, and again in the fall to get the hive up to winter weight for your area. (I'm in northern NY and for my area it should weigh at least 120 lbs, preferably 140.) 

And your first couple of winters you should proactively add supplemental feed during the winter and early in the spring. This is partly because your first winter the hive may still be light and then in your second and following years it is sometimes hard to judge duing the harvest exactly how much honey it is OK to take and still leave enough for the bees because you usually harvest before the whole season is completed. Sometimes the anticipated late flow doesn't happen, after you've already harvested the honey.

Finally, winter can present a food deficit even in a hive that seems well-stoked at the start if the temps, duration, etc. are not normal. Lots of hives in my area starved out this spring because their beekeepers assumed that the normal nectar flow would start in late March. It was late by at least two weeks and their bees burned right through their very last lick of honey beforehand. So, I guess what I'm saying is you may need to get over the idea that feeding sugar to bees is a bad thing. They do OK on it, and it sure beats starving to death!

I am in my third year: the first fall I fed them as much as they'd take before the temps went too low for liquid food. During the first winter I made sugar bricks for them (Lauri Miller's excellent recipe here on BS). All my colonies survived, just fine, but they ate a lot of sugar bricks.

Last summer was an outstanding honey year in my area (best in decades old timers report). I had planned to leave them all the honey anyway, (to learn what they would eat when they had no shortage at all) so I did, even though my some of my hives weighed more than 200 lbs. I also offered then sugar bricks. They ate honey all winter long (and had to go out to poop more, which was a secondary problem because there was no break in freezing temps for nearly 10 weeks in row), They just toyed with the sugar bricks and hadn't even finsihed one by the end of the winter. So now I know how much honey is not only enough, but too much, as I still had lots and lots left in the hive come spring. And I also know that without Lauri's sugar bricks the first year my hives probably would have starved to death, because they ate those up all winter long the first year. All my hives survived their second winter, too.

So, the point I'm trying to make: you can leave lots of honey and it may be enough. You can take some honey and it might be OK, but you should never hesitate to add supplemental sugar, too. In a banner year you can leave all the honey and they may not eat it all up. You just never know ahead of time. So plan on a small harvest at first (in your second year) until you can learn to read the signs of when you are having a good, or better than average year. And every year, check your hive weights in the fall; be prepared to add supplemental food (sugar in some form) in the fall and winter. And most critically, monitor your hive's weight and status of the stores whenever you can during the winter to make sure that they still have enough, well into the start of the spring season.

And I would never consider feeding my hives any honey they had not produced for themselves, because of the brood disease issue. And never, ever, commercial food honey. Feeding liquid honey is also hard from a technical stand point as bees can get sort of honey drunk and sticky and it disrupts the usual good order in the hive. I let them lick at drained comb, and the odd chunk or two that gets scraped off suring hive maintenance, but never great gobs, and always tucked up inside the hive so as to prevent robbing. 

(A good way to feed back a piece of burr comb with nectar or honey in it is to set in on one of those little plastic trays used for micro-waved food. Set this at the farthest back corner on the top bars, under the inner cover. The bees will lick it clean in no time.)

Good luck with your bees. I hope you never have to face a hive that has starved to death. I can't imagine a worse feeling than that, since it is one factor that beekeepers have complete control over.

Enj.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Typically, high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is not available anyway unless you wish to buy in very large quantities or pay a higher price than ordinary granulated sugar

Mann Lake and probably other bee equipment suppliers will fill containers with HFCS at some their locations. I fill a few 5 gallon buckets once a year and find that the easiest manner of obtaining the little feed I need.

I priced out buckets and barrels from a food supplier and even the cheapest offer was double the cost over Mann Lake.


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## NIKKIBEE (Jun 13, 2015)

@enjambres 

Thank you so much for all the help! 

I would feel horribly bad if a hive did starve to death, such a sad situation. Like you said, it's the one thing you can control. I had planned on doing more research into what was best for supplemental feeding. I have yet to purchase any bees as there is TONS to learn. Plus, i would feel horrible if something were tohappen. I am greatful for people like you who is willing to pass along so much helpful information. I am definitely going to look into making Lauri's bricks for feeding ?(do ya have a link, if not it's ok)

I live where the climate is pretty moderate weather, lots of rain but no snow, and about an average low temp in the winter of about high 20's - 30's. We've only had snow 2x in the last 10-12 years. I will say, it got super cold over those times of snow. So do you suggest just feed as much as they'll eat, let em' go for it? If so that's great, and that's what I will do. 

Thanks again. I honestly appreciate all the help


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## Life is Good! (Feb 22, 2013)

As a third year beekeeper, I have only fed sugar syrup their first year in the hive. I had no other choice. No 'safe' honey to be found that I truly trusted. 

I've left them all their honey for the winter(s), and pull honey in the spring when the dandelions bloom (one year I pulled when the maples bloomed, as it was such a strong early flow with great weather for the bees - this year, not so much - maple tree blossoms froze!) With the tbh's, this is a practical management technique.

Honey is not only food, but also insulation for the bees during winters. And while you might not have a lot of snow or cold in Oregon....it's still a winter season where there is not a lot of food around, weather isn't hospitable for the bees to go out on cleansing runs or foraging searches....As a rule, the thought is if you run Lang's - to keep honey on either side of the broodnest as well as above and below for insulation value. In a tbh, I keep honey on either side of the broodnest and put a layer of insulation in the peak to help the bees overwinter. It's worked well....unfaced insulation so that the moisture in the hive can get out. Although one year, a mouse took up residence in one of the peak of the hives - ewwww......


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

It is an honorable thing you are hoping for, letting the bees live off their honey. Don't be fooled however into believing that you may not need to intervene. Bees can rip through stores quickly building up in times of dearth. Some colonies don't know when to put on the brakes. You could always freeze frames of surplus in the future for such times. Good Luck and Welcome to Beesource. G


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

NIKKIBEE said:


> I live where the climate is pretty moderate weather, lots of rain but no snow, and about an average low temp in the winter of about high 20's - 30's. We've only had snow 2x in the last 10-12 years. I will say, it got super cold over those times of snow. So do you suggest just feed as much as they'll eat, let em' go for it? If so that's great, and that's what I will do.
> 
> Thanks again. I honestly appreciate all the help


I think you'll want to seek out other TBH bee keepers in your area to see what is done in your area for winter. I have my first TBH this summer and I've found very few people in my area who make claims of successfully over wintering.

You will also want to think about feeding them when you first start the TBH. A package doesn't have an organized field force and unless your bees are starting in the middle of an amazing flow, the bees will need supplemental feed in order to get their first combs drawn.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oh, the hive is not started yet? If you are buying a package, bear in mind those bees have been taken from their hive and the food stores they made. The bees are packaged, then shipped to you and dumped into a hive they have to start from scratch. No wax, no food.

It is too much to expect them to do this with nothing, they should be fed. There may be enough flowers and nectar right now where you are, or there may not. But in any case even just 2 days bad weather straight after they are put in the hive could cause the death of them all if they have no food. So feeding of a new package is pretty mandatory and something that should be organised prior to getting the bees.

If you feed honey you bought, you expose your bees to anything and everything that could have been wrong with any of the hives that honey came from. Sugar is the healthiest option.

White refined cane sugar is a fairly pure product that has the indigestibles removed and gives bees the energy they need plus the hydrocarbons to turn into wax for comb building. The rest of their needs come from pollen, which is mostly easier for them to come by.


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## NIKKIBEE (Jun 13, 2015)

Hello all.

I haven't purchased any bees yet, I am waiting for spring of next year. I'm just getting into the whole beekeeping thing. I am so glad that I decided to do some research before hand. There are so many people that are under the impression that you can just buy a hive, add some bees, and miraculously you'll have honey and wax. But in reality there is SO much to learn. So nope, no bees for me until I'm comfy.

I do plan on feeding to get the hive well established ( I have looked into sugar bricks, sugar syrup, etc...) I was just wondering IF people EVER let them eat their own honey as a majority.

I really appreciate all of your guys' help!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Do whatever it takes to get them through the first winter. 

Cross your bridges about ideals and whatnot once you have live bees in March the following year. Afterall, there will probably only be one bee left in the hive that might have eaten any of the horrid "GMO" sugar. And with a package it's likely she won't be around anymore either.

Of course people let them eat their own honey as a majority. I'd say the majority of beekeepers allow their bees to eat mostly their honey. Do you think anyone wants to feed up a colony to winter weight to the tune of 100+ pounds? Emergency type feeding in a top bar hive is a pain in the butt. Feed them in the fall if they need it so you're not dumping bags of dry sugar into the back of the hive hoping they will be able to break cluster and get to it. Be aware that commercially derived stocks aren't really bred with the backyard person with one hive in mind. The Carniolans are a bit better, but the dang Italians would have eaten a 55 gallon drum of syrup and turned it into brood in November if they'd had enough time. They were drawing comb into October and not storing a drop. Carni's weren't like that at all. 

Be prepared to let your bees die if you're... convictions... are so strong. I think there's a bit too much smoke blown around here and I, like many, probably went into my first year a little bit too... idealistic. I think people aren't prepared for the possible death of the whole colony and so it shocks them when it inevitably happens. And ready yourself for having been the cause in some way/shape/form. Either by doing or NOT doing something you should have.

Maybe a touch less skipping around holding hands almost religious aspect to beekeeping and a little more reading/observing/learning. All I can tell you is that if your main concern is GMO sugar, you're going to be in trouble as a beekeeper because your bees will be into anything and everything. If you're in town you might get a pretty good GMO hummingbird syrup flow in late summer.  I'm not saying any of this to be offensive, but there's too much Pollyanna-type stuff going on here on occasion.


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## NIKKIBEE (Jun 13, 2015)

I have no problem feeding them sugar, as long as I can find a better alternative in the long run. I understand about dead loss, I will do everything in my power to prevent that. Especially if it's due to starving to death, it's the one thing you can control. 

I have NO neighbors. My nearest neighbor is 4 miles away. We are in the grass seed capitol of the world, I am literally surrounded by nothing but grass seed, meadowfoam, hazelnuts, blueberries and forestry land. I know the land owners and they use minimal sprays. I get that people think I'm over the top with no GMO and no chemicals, but it can be done. I have seen many cases where bees thrive with clean means of keeping as a top priority. I respect all methods but what's important to me, may not be to you, and that's ok.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

One thing that isn't explicitly made clear to prospective TBH owners is that by adopting a system that relies on crush and strain for all harvest of honey you areputting your bees to the trouble and metabolic expense of drawing out new comb every year. 

While Lang equipment does rely on steady replacement/renewal of comb over a period of years, most of the combs are used and then resued by the bees, many times effectively ammortizing the energy cost to the bees of making them. 

But the first year of starting in Lang equipment is rough on the bees because they have to draw out all that wax from scratch. It's only now, in my third summer, that I am starting to see the benefits of an accumulated store of already-drawn comb. It shows up in the flexibility I have in managing my bees and for the bees in being able to devote more of their time and energy into nectar collection and storage (that's honey!) and less into wax-making. To me, crush and strain seems to keep bees perpetually stuck in an "establishment year" state of stress.

So, paradoxically, using system that works by destroying a certain amount of wax comb every year to get any harvest you may increase your need to add supplemental food, which only can be some form of sugar. Because the bees will have to start over every spring to replace the comb you crushed before they can begin to store anything - for them or for you - in it. 

Do you know that if the ideas of "plastic in the hive" or "chemicals in commercial wax foundation" are problems pushing you towards a TBH that you can run conventional Lang equipment, with reusable comb that is entirely made by the bees? It's called foundationless comb. I have some in my hives to see how I and my bees like it. And there are also "long Langs" which are horizontal like TBH, but use frames.

Bees are very adaptable creatures. They readily put up with our many whims and notions.

Enj.


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## NIKKIBEE (Jun 13, 2015)

I thought that when I first discovered TBH. It does seem like they would never catch a break from building comb. I did see a couple guys who had taken a hand extractor and modified it a bit to fit the TBH bars. He spun it and out came they honey without damaging the comb! It was pretty cool and maybe worth it for those who would love to save the comb. Which I would. 

I had also heard of a local guy who had langs and wanted to transition ( hes in his late 60's and his langs get quite heavy for him) He wanted to make his own TBH, so he did. He modified his bars for his TBH to fit his extractor. A great idea for this who are savy enough to build their own ( not me  )


QUOTE=enjambres;1285912]One thing that isn't explicitly made clear to prospective TBH owners is that by adopting a system that relies on crush and strain for all harvest of honey you areputting your bees to the trouble and metabolic expense of drawing out new comb every year. 

While Lang equipment does rely on steady replacement/renewal of comb over a period of years, most of the combs are used and then resued by the bees, many times effectively ammortizing the energy cost to the bees of making them. 

But the first year of starting in Lang equipment is rough on the bees because they have to draw out all that wax from scratch. It's only now, in my third summer, that I am starting to see the benefits of an accumulated store of already-drawn comb. It shows up in the flexibility I have in managing my bees and for the bees in being able to devote more of their time and energy into nectar collection and storage (that's honey!) and less into wax-making. To me, crush and strain seems to keep bees perpetually stuck in an "establishment year" state of stress.

Enj.[/QUOTE]


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

There are a lot more people using top bar hives now than even five years ago when I started, so it's very possible you might find someone in your area selling top bar hive nucs. The success rate for establishing a hive is higher with a nuc than a package. Also, research has shown that bees do very well on sugar, so I wouldn't get too caught up on thinking only honey will do the trick. If I harvest in the summer or fall, it's usually because my hive is running out of room. But my hives have almost 6000 cubic inches, so that's not often a problem.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>One thing that isn't explicitly made clear to prospective TBH owners is that by adopting a system that relies on crush and strain for all harvest of honey you are putting your bees to the trouble and metabolic expense of drawing out new comb every year. 

Not really. They will make wax regardless. It's a question of whether they will make it into comb... I did crush and strain and comb honey using Langstroths and foundation for 26 years before I bought an extractor. I did not see it as a big disadvantage. In some ways it was an advantage. No comb to protect from the wax moths... plus not extractor to buy etc.

"...swarms hived in June would fill their hives full of nice straight worker combs, and the combs would be filled with brood during the first two weeks after hiving...nor would a swarm having a full set of combs given them, or the frames filled with foundation, be a whit better off at the end of two weeks. Mr. P.H. Elwood has noted the same thing; thus proving that the theory that it takes 20 pounds of honey to produce one pound of comb, will not hold good in cases where bees desire comb..."--G.M. Doolittle ABJ Vol 20 No 18 pg 276

"...yet foundation is far from being a success, when compared with natural worker comb. In the first place it has sagged badly, unless built out in cool weather, and even in cool weather it sags so that the cells in the upper part of the combs measures 4 1/2 cells to the inch (5.6mm), while natural comb for brood purposes measures 5 (5.08mm); also some of this built out in cool weather, when filled with honey and sealed over, sagged so as to tear the cells apart and set the honey to running, with the mercury at 90 degrees in the shade, while not a natural comb stirred a particle. In the second place, it requires twice as much fussing and looking after, to get it built out into half-way decent combs, that it takes to get natural comb built; and thirdly, it costs more than natural comb, where you have to pay more than 50 cents per lb... I have said nothing of its use for comb honey, as I have discarded it from the boxes altogether, for the reasons that when honey is plenty and the bees are secreting wax, they simply add their wax to the foundation, never touching it to draw it out a particle. By scraping the wax off we have the foundation just as it was given to them, and nobody likes to eat such stuff. My advice would be, discard it from the boxes altogether"--G.M. Doolittle, ABJ Vol 15 No 1 pg 11

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

"The opinion of experts once was that the production of beeswax in a colony required great quantities of nectar which, since it was turned into wax, would never be turned into honey. Until quite recently it was thought that bees could store seven pounds of honey for every pound of beeswax that they needed to manufacture for the construction of their combs--a figure which seems never to have been given any scientific basis, and which is in any case quite certainly wrong. The widespread view that if the combs were used over and over, through the use of the honey extractor, then the bees would be saved the trouble of building them and could convert the nectar thus saved into honey, was only minimally correct. A strong colony of bees will make almost as much comb honey as extracted honey on a strong honey flow. The advantage of the extractor, in increasing harvests, is that honey stored from minor flows, or gathered by the bees over many weeks of the summer, can easily be extracted, but comb honey cannot be easily produced under those conditions."--Richard Taylor, The Comb Honey Book

"Again, at all times of a heavy yield of honey, the bees secrete wax whether any combs are built or not; and if the sections are all supplied with foundation, and the hive filled with comb, this wax is wasted or else the foundation given is wasted; have it which way you please...To show that I am not alone in this matter regarding the waste of wax, I wish to quote from two or three of our best apiarists; the first is Prof. Cook, and no one will say that he is not good authority. he says on page 166 of the latest edition of his Manual 'But I find upon examination that the bees, even the most aged, while gathering, in the honey season, yield up the wax scales the same as those within the hive. During the active storing of the past season, especially when comb-building was in rapid progress, I found that nearly every bee taken from the flowers contained wax scales of varying size, in the wax pockets.'
"This is my experience during "active storing," and the wax scales are to be found on the bees just the same whether they are furnished with foundation or not; and I can arrive at no other conclusion than that arrived at by Mr. S.J. Youngman, when he says on page 108: 'The bees secrete wax during a honey flow, whether they are building comb or not; and if they are not employed in building comb, this wax is most certainly lost.'
"Once more on page 93, of the American Apiculturist, Mr. G.W. Demaree says: 'Observation has convinced me that swarms leave the parent colony better prepared to build comb than they ever are under other circumstances; and that if they are not allowed to utilize this accumulated force, by reason of having full sheets of foundation at hand to work out, there will necessarily be some loss; and I think that when the matter is computed, to find the loss and gain the result will show that the foundation really costs the apiarist double what he actually pays for it in cash'...Now, I have often noticed, and especially in looking back over the last year, after reading Mr. Mitchell's "Mistaken Economy," that swarms hived in June would fill their hives full of nice straight worker combs, and the combs would be filled with brood during the first two weeks after hiving; while a colony not casting a swarm would not make a gain of a single pound of honey; nor would a swarm having a full set of combs given them, or the frames filled with foundation, be a whit better off at the end of two weeks. Mr. P.H. Elwood has noted the same thing; thus proving that the theory that it takes 20 pounds of honey to produce one pound of comb, will not hold good in cases where bees desire comb and have free access to pollen. As most of my comb is built at this time, the reader will readily see that the combs cost me but little, save the looking after the colony once or twice while building comb, which is far cheaper than buying foundation, or fussing with a foundation mill."--G.M. Doolittle ABJ Vol 20 No 18 pg 276

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm#expenseofwax


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

Thanks, Michael! This turns conventional "wisdom" on its head. Let's see if I can summarize this. 

Foundation in heat sags and creates far more work for the bees to correct than if they just built new comb themselves. 

Bees make wax regardless of need during a strong honeyflow, therefore, it costs them no more honey bucks to build new comb; there is no "conversion of nectar into honey" ratio as previously believed.

Swarms come primed to build comb and are more productive when allowed to do so. 

Excellent information.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Jon Wolff said:


> Thanks, Michael! This turns conventional "wisdom" on its head. Let's see if I can summarize this.
> 
> Foundation in heat sags and creates far more work for the bees to correct than if they just built new comb themselves.
> 
> ...


There's not a terrible amount of comb building going on in an established hive in a tree. The mass of wax builders leaves the hive every spring in the form of a swarm. It's not like they're tearing down old comb and restarting each year. In fact there are a decent number of people who insist that depleting the wax builders is important to swarm prevention.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would say it costs them honey (but not metabolically) because in a strong flow there is no where to store the nectar so they spend TIME building comb rather than hauling and storing it. So not having drawn comb will cost you some honey and how much will be related to the length of the flow. It may be a significant difference or it may be negligible.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

There is an interesting dichotomy of opinion over this. On one hand I've seen debates over which is better, comb foundation, or foundationless. And on those threads the foundationless people almost invariably argue that bees build foundationless comb faster. Yet the other line followed in a lot of threads is people saying that they are foundationless so the bees are having to put all their energy into building comb but things will be going a lot better for them once they have enough drawn comb. 

My own experience is bees do better if they are given drawn comb, if for no other reason than I put a box of drawn comb on & they are into it straight away. The comment about them building new comb quickly in a strong flow is correct. But for most of us, the majority of the time we are in weak flows, where the bees will only build what they absolutely have to. If the OP is in predominantly grass seed land this may be the case for her.




jwcarlson said:


> I think there's a bit too much smoke blown around here and I, like many, probably went into my first year a little bit too... idealistic....
> 
> Maybe a touch less skipping around holding hands.....


Ha Ha that is pretty funny, because there is certainly some truth in it. New players, in their search for the truth, often get led towards the more idealistic side of things purely because it just sounds so good. But there's a lot of common sense on Beesource I'm pleased to see the solid advice given in this thread for example.

But some web sites are pretty crazy, bees are held as sacred, etc, and you know the author is not a successful beekeeper.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> I would say it costs them honey (but not metabolically) because in a strong flow there is no where to store the nectar so they spend TIME building comb rather than hauling and storing it. So not having drawn comb will cost you some honey and how much will be related to the length of the flow. It may be a significant difference or it may be negligible.


This is true. It's pretty impressive how quickly a hive will move into and fill up a freshly extracted super. It goes beyond just the savings on comb building resources though. Plenty of drawn comb will allow the bees the space to spread out the nectar so the moisture can be more efficiently removed.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> There's not a terrible amount of comb building going on in an established hive in a tree. The mass of wax builders leaves the hive every spring in the form of a swarm. It's not like they're tearing down old comb and restarting each year. In fact there are a decent number of people who insist that depleting the wax builders is important to swarm prevention.


 If a TBH is managed right, there's plenty of drawn comb for the bees to use after the first year while leaving work for the wax builders. I think a TBH allows for a good balance in that regard.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> I would say it costs them honey (but not metabolically) because in a strong flow there is no where to store the nectar so they spend TIME building comb rather than hauling and storing it. So not having drawn comb will cost you some honey and how much will be related to the length of the flow. It may be a significant difference or it may be negligible.


This makes sense.



Jon Wolff said:


> If a TBH is managed right, there's plenty of drawn comb for the bees to use after the first year while leaving work for the wax builders. I think a TBH allows for a good balance in that regard.


You can make them build wax in any type of hive, TBH isn't unique in that regard. Management techniques compared to the Langstroth may be somewhat unique. But it's still about giving them space be it drawn comb or empty places to draw comb. What I'd have liked to have had for my TBHs is bigger combs. I made short small ones (Les Crowder design), and while the combs are easy to handle, there is not much room in each comb (slightly less than the size of a medium frame). I placed empty bars at the edge of the brood nest and simply could not keep them expanding fast enough... that or they were going to swarm regardless. I think that the lack of overhead room cost me a bit this year because expanding out, but not freeing any more "space" really seems like maybe it cramped them. I'm just guessing. The other thing that may have influenced their likelihood of swarming this year was that we had fantastic weather for maple bloom. Talking 75 and sunny, cool nights, but not down in the 20s like it can be sometimes. Good flight weather. One of my TBHs has three combs entirely filled with pollen. And during maple flow they had 3-4+ combs of uncapped nectar at the end of the brood nest. They didn't really backfill ever, but they did "back fill" with brood. Couldn't keep enough open cells for her. In part beekeeper issue absolutely... but in my Lang I had no issue getting them expanding during the same time. The difference is in how much comb was available to the queen, I think. Again, linked back in part to the small size of my TBH combs.

I'll be completely out of my full sized top bar hives and into Langs within the next couple of weeks. Might keep combs and the nuc sized ones and divide them to run double sided mating nucs. They'd be good for that. And maybe even remove one queen and the divider and give them a shot at overwintering that way.

Not to drag the whole thread off topic. :/


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Based on your description of weather, crops and your disapproval of GMO products, you live on the west side of the Cascades. We have a farm in Elmira, OR which has grass seed, Hazel Nuts, pasture land, etc. All of that is a desert for bees. The forest land and hopefully blackberries in creeks and fence lines will be what your bees live on. I rarely feed my bees in normal years. This year has been great for the bees so far...nice dry flying weather and a mild winter. 

What you will need to watch for are our long extended winters...where it rains through June. When we get a warm week in February or March the bees will start to brood up and then burn through all of their honey. If they can get two flying days a week, they seem to be able to supply the hive with pollen and honey but with less than that they will need to be fed at some point. I've found hives in June with no honey or pollen and 20 frames of bees. So in those times you need to be prepared to feed. In forested areas if you have dewberry, salmon berry, cascara, Oregon grape, etc. they will do fine with a few flying days a week.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

I'm sure wax moths make sure feral hives have to renew comb on the periphery of the cluster every year, which gives the bees the space and opportunity to build fresh, clean comb for brood. New comb lacks the build up of pesticides and disease spores, so comb renewal is definitely in the bees best interests regardless of what type of hive used. 

Bees in the wild don't just place honey on either side of the brood nest, which is what happens in most TBH's, especially those with small combs, and I think this creates some issues. Langstroths simulate better how they like to place it above the brood as well so they can move up into their food supply during the winter as well as keeping some of the lower combs open for brood rearing. I built my first hive over five years ago and have never had that one swarm, but I veered from that design and went with less volume and narrower bars and had trouble--swarming, starving--due to how quickly honey bound they can get in the first case, and how quickly they can use up the meager honey on the brood comb in winter and find it too difficult in freezing weather to move around comb to the honey (even if they were inclined to leave the brood), so now all my hives have 20" bars that are 1.5" wide, giving the hives almost 6000 cubic inches of volume. I still have my original colony, which makes it through every winter due to, I believe, the thick bands of honey they put over the brood. My one concern is that last year they raised a lot of drones, and that hive went from having a bumper crop of honey to having to be fed in the fall. We suffered through a summer dearth, and I suspect the drones ate a lot of it then. During inspections, I'd find them in their boys' club in the back, drinking at the bar and shooting the breeze.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

NIKKIBEE said:


> Rader,
> Thanks for the info! :thumbsup:
> I was thinking of just using my honey that they will produce. I know that it will lower my harvest, but hey, if it's better for them, so be it I suppose.
> 
> My concern with white granulated sugar is that 60% of the US sugar comes from GMO sugar beets. We don't do GM foods here at home so I'm not sure how to get around that?


Use only pure cane sugar. If it doesn't say that on the bag it is probably from sugar beets.


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## NIKKIBEE (Jun 13, 2015)

Bruce, you are correct, I'm just south of Albany. My dad great up in Elmira, still have lots of family there :thumbsup: 

Can I ask what you feed, when you've had to?


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

NIKKIBEE said:


> Bruce, you are correct, I'm just south of Albany. My dad great up in Elmira, still have lots of family there :thumbsup:
> 
> Can I ask what you feed, when you've had to?


I feed 2:1 sugar water. I really don't need to feed pollen substitute since if they can have flying days they can find pollen most of the year except maybe November. 

The farm is from my wife's family. Came out on the Oregon Trail in 1852. She grew up there too.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Regarding the discussion of comb building in topbar hives, my experience has been that it's pretty equal. Queens lay better in, and prefer new comb. One good technique is to install a certain amount of plastic foundation on your topbars. Scrape off the capped honey and strain it. Also scrape off old grubby comb and they make fresh. It helps with the hygeine in the hives. This works for Langs too, when the comb is really filthy. 1 sheet of plastic foundation will do 2 very fullsize Warre topbars. I have done a 1/3 sheet topbar with good results.


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