# Palmer queen lines make up and history



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Does any one remember a post were Mike discussed the history and make up of his queens lines? I thought it was here on beesource but possibly some other site. It was a post that he talks about finding the right bees that worked best for him and that would survive his VT winters. I know it was quite a few years ago and I had no luck finding it under search. Maybe Mike could talk about it if he has time.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I recall him mentioning it in a post within the last week or so. I'll look to see if I can find it.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Thought I saw a post where he said he had some buckfast from Weavers in the 90s then started the switch to carnolians. Watching for reply from MP


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

"Actually, I am a fan of Brother Adam's bees. Or, a fan of Roy Weaver's Buckfast bees, as I was never able to get any of the original stock. Discussing "Buckfast" with the folks in the UK is opening a can of worms. They have a bee, Amm, that some think is the perfect bee for their climate, and Adams bee has polluted their stock. Others think Buckfast is an improvement. I don't keep bees in the UK and so I can't add anything to the debate. I certainly wouldn't be so presumptuous as to tell them what to do.

The "Buckfast" stock that Roy had in the 90s was very resistant to Acarapis. In the height of the infestation, my yellow bees died and my dark Buckfast bees survived. That and a hygienic strain of Carniolan was the beginning of my breeding program.

As far as any connection to the Canadian Buckfast program, I can't see any. I bought some cells raised from a Ferguson breeder, and I wintered the daughters in nucs. They were okay, but nothing of note. Certainly nothing on which to build a breeding program.

No secrets here. After years of selecting breeding stock from top performers, I have bees that are pretty good. Nothing anyone couldn't do, it just takes time. "

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?322471-Colony-Update-here-in-MA&p=1502509#post1502509
post #541


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Clyderoad that post is what prompted my to make this post. Mike had a much more detailed post along time ago. Explained why he started changing his stock from when he was pollenating.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

He gives much more detail of his beginnings 
in some of his video presentations on Youtube.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

from MPalmer:

"VSH isn't a silver bullet. It's another IPM aid.

I began introducing VSH stock from Tom and Suki Glenn, into my operation in 2004, and introduced a number of breeder queens over the last 16 years. That first autumn, those colonies crashed at the same rate as any other. Over time, I believe VSH has helped. I used to see DWV crawling bees by mid-summer. It was a race to get the honey crop off in August so the colonies could be treated. Now I don't see any early issues, and don't need to rush with harvest. To me, that has been the biggest advantage. Can I prove that the change is due to VSH? No. "

"In the 90s, Texas Buckfast from Roy Weaver were good bees. Very Trachael resistant and good producers. F1s were defensive ankle biters. After that cross not so bad. Still good bees. Did get a bit of chalk which got requeened with a hygienic line of carnies. Those two lines were the start of my breeding program. "

The last quote is from your thread: northern vs southern stock


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> F1s were defensive ankle biters. After that cross not so bad. Still good bees.


You must have a very high tolerance for pain, took me 5 years to get rid of their genetics, never so happy to see bees go away. If they showed up again, I would quit beekeeping.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> You must have a very high tolerance for pain, took me 5 years to get rid of their genetics, never so happy to see bees go away. If they showed up again, I would quit beekeeping.


Not my quote wild, but a quote from MPalmer from another thread.
I edited my post above to be more clear.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Clyderoad, you can just hit the little speech bubble and paste whatever quote you have inside the "quote" tags. Makes it a little more clear.

From Michael Palmer:



> VSH isn't a silver bullet. It's another IPM aid.
> 
> I began introducing VSH stock from Tom and Suki Glenn, into my operation in 2004, and introduced a number of breeder queens over the last 16 years. That first autumn, those colonies crashed at the same rate as any other. Over time, I believe VSH has helped. I used to see DWV crawling bees by mid-summer. It was a race to get the honey crop off in August so the colonies could be treated. Now I don't see any early issues, and don't need to rush with harvest. To me, that has been the biggest advantage. Can I prove that the change is due to VSH? No.





> In the 90s, Texas Buckfast from Roy Weaver were good bees. Very Trachael resistant and good producers. F1s were defensive ankle biters. After that cross not so bad. Still good bees. Did get a bit of chalk which got requeened with a hygienic line of carnies. Those two lines were the start of my breeding program.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

In about 1990, Roy Weaver was able to get some queens direct from Brother Adam. Prior to that, he had used drone semen to upgrade Italian stock until it was nearly pure Buckfast. The queens I got from Weaver in 1991 were fantastic. They built very strong colonies with very little swarming and produced the highest average crop of honey I've ever had. When crossed with most other races, they turned very defensive. Do some basic selection and the defensiveness could be brought down but the price was an increase in swarming tendency. They were highly susceptible to varroa and in the winter of 1993/1994 all died.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

jwcarlson: what's a speech bubble?
I usually reply to a post by hitting 'reply with quote', I have trouble when pulling quotes from different posts. :scratch:


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> jwcarlson: what's a speech bubble?
> I usually reply to a post by hitting 'reply with quote', I have trouble when pulling quotes from different posts. :scratch:


When you hit the reply button there's a little tool bar that pops up over the top of the box you type in. All the way on the right (at least on mine) there's a little speech bubble. Looks kind of like this:









It will add in [QUOTE] [/QUOTE] in the text box (or you can type the quote tags if you wish). You can paste in between it will look like this:

[QUOTE] INSERT QUOTE HERE BLAH BLAH BLAH[/QUOTE]

Then when you send the wizardry of the internet will make it a "quote" in the reply displayed in the thread.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Since you asked, I thought I would add more to what has been reported here in this thread. 


A few years ago, a US university with a very good bee lab did a study comparing different stocks of honey bees from around the US. I participated in the study. One of the things they looked at was the genetic diversity of the bees. They wanted to know if the different stocks were genetically different. I've seen some of the results, which, I must say, pleased me. I'm not going to say anything until they publish the paper, and I think it's close to being published. 

Anyway, before they publish the report, they wanted to know more about my bees. I answered as best I could.....



On 1/3/2017 9:00 AM, Michael Palmer wrote:

Retirement?? What?  

Yep, got the bees tucked away. Wasn't easy this year. Think drought. We made an excellent honey crop. Mating % was high and the new queens are fat. Thankful for that. But, the Fall flow failed. Almost completely, and that's the winter feed in my management. So, mixed 20,000 lbs of granulated sugar into syrup, and fed it out. The clusters responded nicely, but I'm still concerned with weight. They're good enough for now but come March I'll be out there with my snowshoes and toboggan and fondant. Did someone say retirement? 

Can't wait till I see the paper. I've always felt that ***** ***** were all the same bee, no matter which of the breeders you bought them from. Dave Tarpy told me I was right, as his tests showed just that. I suppose stocks reared in the rest of the country are similar, just a reflection of that group...like the ****** folks. And too many of the commercial guys are managing their bees with that stock...requeening every year with the same stuff, and not doing any of the breeder selection from their best stocks. And the backyard beekeepers are doing the same...buying from the huge breeders, requeening every year. Much of that because their bees swarm or die every year. And, I think that's one of the major issues with our bees right now. Too much of the stock out there has queens from puppy mill breeders. Selected for nothing but raising package bees. If it's a bug that lays an egg, it's a queen and gets shipped. 

Now, I've been doing what I do for years. I'm not saying that the system is perfect, or that I know everything about breeding, or that my stock is better than the rest. Maybe it's nurture, maybe it's nature, but probably both. I get to choose my breeders from colonies that I follow for years. They go on and on, year after year being a top producer in their apiary. Never a dip in production because they swarmed or can't supercede at the correct time, or even successfully. For instance, In 2015/16 I used a breeder that came from a colony like that. Installed the original queen in the hive in 2001. Her hive has been one of those. Only treated for varroa. Of course they've superceded over the years, but a top producer every year. No disease, gentle, don't need fall feeding, wonderful bees. Whoa you should see how her daughters winter/spring in their nucs. We showed our new inspector when we were transferring the nucs to 10 frame equipment. Blew his socks into his watch pocket.  Anyway, maybe my bees are different just because I don't requeen every year, I don't know.

No, I won't be in Galveston. Been to too many meetings and taking a break till mid-February when I start again. Kalamazoo, Winnipeg, and Kamloops, BC. Crazy year. First a trip through the south...NC, OH, GA, WA, and TX. Now it's the Canadians. Going to do my best to throw a wrench in the package importation foolishness from NZ and AU.

I'll try to answer the questions as best as I can.


>>1) how many generations/years you have been breeding queens ?

I began raising my own queens in about 1998. By 2000 I was no longer buying in production queens or replacement bees. I quit pollinating apples that year to focus on raising my own stock. Good move!

2) what stock did you start with? 
3) what additional genetics have you introduced into your breeding program? 


I started in 1974 with, I believe Wilbanks Italians. Bought them from FW Jones in Quebec. Border was open at that time. In the early 80s I was using Starline from York in Jessup Georgia. Then came Acarine. And as that was getting going, I took the advice of an old friend, Buster Smith, and what Gene Robinson reported at EAS one summer...that Buckfast (and Webster) was very resistant to Acarapis. So, mid to late 80s I began requeening with Buckfast from Roy Weaver. Wow! Issue gone.

In 98, I sent 400 colonies to Florida for the winter. Big mistake. Came back with AFB, rotten with chalk. At that point, I requeened all chalky colonies with Pat Heitkam's stock. Good hygienic bees. Cleaned up the chalk immediately. Issue gone!!

So that's when I began raising my own stock. My first breeder queen was from one of his daughters. Drones were likely of Buckfast stock. Since I don't requeen by the calendar, but by performance, lots of the Buckfast stock remained. 

In 2004, I bought a couple VSH breeders from Tom and Suki Glenn, and repeated that a few times, raising some % of my queens from their stock and spreading it throughout my operation. I've brought in a few breeders from Finklestein. Traded breeders with Latshaw. A couple from Harbo in 2016. So, I do bring in stock from others to try it out. To see what they have to offer. Some seem to be rubbish right off the bat. Some give daughters that will eat you up. Some fail to winter or are too weak in the spring to be considered for breeding material. That bunch gets eliminated.

So, basically, that's my history and my stock. I love my bees. 2014-15, a severe winter, I had a 12% loss in winter. Last year, a mild winter, I had a 2% winter loss....this with about 700 colonies. Making nice crops, usually around 100lbs. Selling more nucs and queens than I ever have. Bought new extracting equipment last Fall, and a new Truck this. All paid for. Paying my help $18/hr. The bees have been good to me.

Retire? Not if I can keep good help.

Let me know if you need anything else.
Be well
Mike




On 1/2/2017 10:10 AM, ******* wrote:
Hi Mike
Happy New Year! Hope you got all those bees tucked in nicely for the winter! 
I am reflecting on my 1st year of retirement.

Our graduate student ******, who worked on the project to compare the northern and southern bee stocks in **, is in the process of getting this paper published. We were asked by the reviews to add a genetic analysis of the stocks to be certain there are differences between the northern vs southern stocks. ****** has done this and found that there are indeed differences. However some additional information on your queens would be very helpful for the publication. Can you provide us with the following information:

1) how many generations/years you have been breeding queens ?
2) what stock did you start with?
3) what additional genetics have you introduced into your breeding program?

Will you be at the Galveston meetings? We are planning to go so hopefully will see you there.

Thanks for your help Mike. We'll share this paper with you so soon as it is accepted by the reviewers.

******* ********


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

Appreciate, thanx, LP


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

Clyde, thanks for asking this.


> wcarlson: what's a speech bubble?
> I usually reply to a post by hitting 'reply with quote', I have trouble when pulling quotes from different posts.


And JWC thank you for this. I always wondered how to do this.


> When you hit the reply button there's a little tool bar that pops up over the top of the box you type in. All the way on the right (at least on mine) there's a little speech bubble. Looks kind of like this:


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks for your time. Hope your cow (Elsie?  ) is doing as good as your bees are.


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## kramerbryan (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks Mike. I thought her name was meat.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Meat is well. Pretty good for a 20+ year old. The winter has been easy for her so far, and she has all the sweet smelling, second cut she can eat.


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> A few years ago, a US university with a very good bee lab did a study comparing different stocks of honey bees from around the US. I participated in the study. One of the things they looked at was the genetic diversity of the bees. They wanted to know if the different stocks were genetically different. I've seen some of the results, which, I must say, pleased me. I'm not going to say anything until they publish the paper, and I think it's close to being published.


Please let us know when it is published and where we can read it.


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

Mike, for those of us with say, 20 colonies who want to start raising our own stock, where should we start?

I have 17 colonies with stock from Gardner's, Wilbanks, Heitkams, Strachans, and a couple of local mutts. They were made up as nucs last spring, and I'd like to put 10 or 12 into honey production, then make nucs from the remaining 5 or so left over.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm not Mike, but start by acquiring good stock and building a lot of equipment to increase that apiary of yours. You have to have the good traits present, and the hives and drawn combs to get the numbers.

Michael has done wonders with good basic beekeeping honed to superb skills, solid queen rearing practices, wise selection, seeking the best advice in the business, getting good employees and treating them right, open mating, *and years of consistent hard work*. Like he says, no secrets (except, perhaps, for the part I bold-face typed).

Another thing you may notice about him - he is always learning something.

Oh, yeah, remember to feed your bees the good stuff at the right time of year. Have at it Mike


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

Kilo, nice straight forward advice there. :thumbsup:



kilocharlie said:


> feed your bees the good stuff


Hope this doesn't open a hornets nest, but what do you mean by "the good stuff"


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

JoshuaW said:


> Mike, for those of us with say, 20 colonies who want to start raising our own stock, where should we start?


With what you have. Keep records that matter. Learn how to raise quality queen cells. Get them mated in nucs that you can evaluate and use the following season. Understand that all this takes time but the benefits of the queens you raise under ideal conditions show up quickly, because it really is about Nature *AND* Nurture. Best advice I can give you as you start your program, and the same as I've given others...

Patience Grashopper


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Michael Palmer what have you done about the control of the drones to ensure the remaining 50% of genetics?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

My mating yard is surrounded by my apiaries. I used to be isolated, but now everyone wants a couple hives in their backyard. I'd give them queens if I knew they were there. Hard to keep up with it.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Hard to keep up with it.


Yes, it will not always be easy. Thank you Michael.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

To Michael Palmer, 

Thanks for sharing your experience in the most mundane discussions here. And thanks for answering the same questions again and again. You have a gift for succinct and pointed expression that I/we value. I enjoy your youtube videos too, they probably teach us the most because we can see what you are doing. 

US Air Force Instructor Pilots are selected for their ability to impart instruction (yes they have to do the job well too). I'm sure they would conclude you have that ability. I value the way you communicate about your hard earned skills/knowledge. 

Your practical focus is what the rest of us need. Again, thank you.

Regards,

Lee_Burough


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

Well Stated!!


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

Thank you so much, Mike. And Kilo.

Mike, your sustainable apiary presentation literally saved our beekeeping this year. I started with 3 purchased nucs two years ago and split off them, then made splits off splits with mated queens last spring and went into winter with 17 colonies. One of our beekeepers was TF and lost 11 of 14. Bummer, but now we have backups, and he's done with TF. (Thankfully) I was able to raise two batches of queens using the nucs to supply the starter/finisher; some queens were well-mated, others were not. It was and is, for our location, a real roll-of-the-dice.

We are in a fairly isolated spot, without many beeks around; it's a blessing and a curse. The blessing comes in mating; but the curse comes in mating, too. Any advice on drone production?


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

MP when might we see the results of that paper to be published? I'd be interested in seeing it.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

You and me both


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

JoshuaW said:


> Any advice on drone production?


Saturate your area with production colonies that have your queens. Don't be afraid of buying in stock from a reputable breeder to add to your mix.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Hey MP did that paper ever get published? Figured I'd check back after a bit of time. How did your bees winter so far?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yes, I guess it did. Not sure I really understand where it went and what it proved. I am hesitant to discuss it. I am really confused by what I was told as the study progressed. First year I was told that my stock was the only viable in October. Then, I was at a Penn State presentation in Burlington that showed one of the four that raced to the top of the graph. I was led to believe they were my stock. Then nothing was published. Then the leader retired. Then they came out with a lame conclusion that the only important thing in wintering was colony weight, and three is no difference between the northern raised stocks and the southern raised stocks. Well that's a bunch of poppycock. And I see one of the northern stocks was from WV. But originally, the other northern stock was from WM in PA. When was the WV stock substituted for the PA stock.WV northern stock?? Anyway, I don't know what else to say without calling out the researchers to explain their "study"...something I will never do. Anyone who has raised stock and actually run a breeding program, and selected stock for excellent wintering, knows the difference.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

> [Never a dip in production.......can't supercede at the correct time, or even successfully../QUOTE]
> 
> Mike what do you mean by this? Deb


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Cloverdale said:


> > [Never a dip in production.......can't supercede at the correct time, or even successfully../QUOTE]
> >
> > Mike what do you mean by this? Deb
> 
> ...


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Michael Palmer said:


> Yes, I guess it did. Not sure I really understand where it went and what it proved. I am hesitant to discuss it. I am really confused by what I was told as the study progressed. First year I was told that my stock was the only viable in October. Then, I was at a Penn State presentation in Burlington that showed one of the four that raced to the top of the graph. I was led to believe they were my stock. Then nothing was published. Then the leader retired. Then they came out with a lame conclusion that the only important thing in wintering was colony weight, and three is no difference between the northern raised stocks and the southern raised stocks. Well that's a bunch of poppycock. And I see one of the northern stocks was from WV. But originally, the other northern stock was from WM in PA. When was the WV stock substituted for the PA stock.WV northern stock?? Anyway, I don't know what else to say without calling out the researchers to explain their "study"...something I will never do. Anyone who has raised stock and actually run a breeding program, and selected stock for excellent wintering, knows the difference.


Michael,

The truth matters
"Anyway, I don't know what else to say without calling out the researchers to explain their "study"...something I will never do"
Odd seems a shift in the study.
Some of us have more faith in reality than "studies and papers"
Hence some aprension in taking all studies as gospel.

Thanks for the reply, maybe next time the "data" will get published.
Carry on

GG


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Not going near the North /South question. (A little surprised myself, must be getting old)

Have some of MPs queens, daughters of two queenlines. A couple of individuals are snappy, a daughter of that line is not for a rookie. But **** I'm keeping her. Will not bother you if you don't bother them. Open the top too quickly and you are on your own. Will not chase you.
The other does not brood up as fast, produces as well. Like several of those queens.
As I said to Jennifer Lund, after doing this for nine years I now know what a good bee looks like. MP has run stationary hives for a long time, bred for that. North or South I don't know, his result for my climate, I do.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

MPalmer: I'd guess if you don't get where the study went or what it proved (or the methodology) others will likely feel the same way when they read it.
What is the name of the study and author?

Who is WM in PA? The WV queens were from the queen breeder co-op there?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Gray Goose said:


> Michael,
> 
> The truth matters
> "Anyway, I don't know what else to say without calling out the researchers to explain their "study"...something I will never do"
> ...


I think this sounds like what happened to Sam Ramsey (pre doc) when he discovered that varoa fed on the fat body, not hemolymph; this fact was pooh-poohed by some of the “big” puffy researchers. I think some of these guys are too big for their britches.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> Cloverdale said:
> 
> 
> > When a colony swarms, there is a dip in honey production for that year. And, if a colony waits to supercede until the queen is failing, there will be a dip in honey production that year. Some colonies go on and on, year after year. They requeen themselves when they feel necessary, and never a drop in honey production. I had one...original colony was established in 2001. In 2015 I took their queen as a breeder. Think of it. 14 years and the best producer in its apiary every year.
> ...


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