# Packages from Bluegrass . . .



## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Just wanted to give a shout out to Brad aka Bluegrass. He delivered three packages to me in the night (he was running a bit late) on his trip north.
His packages were some of the healthiest I have seen. Installed the next morning and they have been working for a couple of days now. Take a look at how few dead bees there are in this package.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

Thanks Keth. The quality of the packages is owed to Gardner/Spell bee. I do my best to take good care of them in transit, but it takes a good package to start with if it is going to look good on arrival.
Late is an understatement . Hope you didn't have to wait too long. It is a long trip back with very little sleep... I was pretty well spent by the time I arrived.


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## stripstrike (Aug 29, 2009)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

I finished installing mine from Brad today, I was probably why he was late to VT. All were in great shape and I'll second the dead bee comment, very few in each box. I had a couple much more experienced beeks than I comment on the condition of them as being super also. Thirty seven queens direct released and 12 in their cages for another couple days. Thanks Brad.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

Err...the packages looked good...very few dead bees.

At least 4 of the 15 I installed in one spot had virgins in the package...killing the mated queen that accounts for a.significant percentage of the cost of the package.

The post on beesource I responded to stated.that they were.coming from rossmans...which is a big reason I purchased them......not gardner/spell.

The worst of it is that the delivery was.moved.up a.week, and I was never.called, emailed, or pm. I got a call a.week before they were supposed to arrive that he was in a mall parkinglot 2 hours away.

Ken was fantastic, and took responsibility for transporting and caring for.the packages overnight. Brad owes you big time, you saved his Bacon.

Deknow


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

Deknow
Rossman's was unable to fill the order which is why these came from Gardner. Many of Rossman's orders are coming from Gardner this season. Fred is experiencing a queen shortage. 

You are the first person I have ever had who complained about packages showing up early... I owned up to the oversight and apologized for it when I called you the next day. I asked if you needed anything more from me and you stated no. I would have gotten your packages to you or refunded your money on them one way or another. If you didn't want the packages all you had to do was say so and I had other people who would have bought them. It doesn't matter who you buy packages from... Unless you are handling them yourself things get missed...

Again: Sorry for the oversight. Hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me and get over it. 

Brad


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

To be clear...virgins in the package are not the fault of the shipper (bluegrass)...except that experience with Rossmans (over many years...the supplier that the bees were supposed to come from) shows that this is a rare occurence from some suppliers.

I'm wondering if that is why there were attendants in the queen cages...perhaps the attendants keep the caged queen alive (a virgin in a package will usually result in a dead queen in the cage...but i've never had package bees with attendants in the queen cage). The supplier might know that they often have virgins in the package the way they do things, and adding attendants to the queen cage means that she doesn't arrive dead.

If you wait 10 days/2 weeks to check for laying you might not notice...the queens are not marked. If you check now, you might find bees drifted away from installed packages with virgins (presumably after killing the mated queen...unless they left for parts unknown).

I installed the rest with some brood to try and keep the bees put. Not an ideal situation.

What a waste of mated queens.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

Dude, I sent you just over $1500 months in advance, and I didn't get what you advertised or what I paid for. You were unable to contact me to let me know they would be early or that the source had changed.

I did everything I was supposed to do...I sent you a check, I gave you good contact information, and I was prepared for the bees (and the pickup) when they were supposed to arrive.

You didn't contact me to let me know that they would be early (it takes having some equipment on hand to hive 20 packages).

You didn't let me know that the supplier had changed....I had no idea until I went to Ken's house the next day and saw the way the queen cages were installed...not how Rossman does it.

Despite the good appearances, there were virgins in many of the packages...something that can't be determined by looking at the package, or when installing (as there were attendants in the cages keeping the caged queens from being killed).

What is it you want me to get over? The truth about our transaction?

I sent you over $1500, and I think I have the right to expect to be told if the packages are going to be early...especially if I have to drive 2 hours to meet you (which I was perfectly happy to do).

If it does not matter who the packages come from, why did you specify they were coming from Rossmans in the first place? If the supplier can't keep virgins out of the packages it certainly matters...at least as far as the laying queens go.



> The quality of the packages is owed to Gardner/Spell bee. I do my best to take good care of them in transit, but it takes a good package to start with if it is going to look good on arrival.


...so it _does_ matter who the supplier is, no? ...and if there are disease (or other problems) down the road, it also certainly matters.

Please don't tell me to "get over it". I doubt anyone is going to offer to send me mated queens to replace the ones that I paid for that were killed (or took off) due to virgins in the package....are they?

I will take a look again today and count up the installed colonies with virgins...but 25% (which is my low estimate) is way too high.

deknow


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

I am not going to continue this conversation with you. You are un-happy. I called to try and make it right and you refused. One un-happy customer out of over 300 I can live with. 

For future reference the queens are guaranteed, even Fred Rossman sends extra queens with his orders as replacements... I had over 30 on hand. Out of my entire load I have only had two reports of dead queens and I quickly sent out replacements. I spot check most of the queens when I distribute the packages and found no dead. I didn't check them when we loaded Kens truck because it was dark. 

FYI: The attendants are in the cages because they ship 1000s of queens per season. Rather than pack some with attendants and some without, they pack them all with.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

...you did call and ask if I needed anything....you did not offer anything to "make it right) .


The queens were not dead in the cage....but the day after hiving several had one frame of bees with a virgin, and no mated queen. The virgins were in the packages and they either killed.the mated queens or the mated quuens took off with some of the bees.

This one complaint is coming from someone who sent you 1500 and who you could not contact.

Deknow


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

Not to butt in to this discussion but How does one know that a package had Virgin queens in it. I had not heard of this occurring in a commercial Package business?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



xcugat said:


> Not to butt in to this discussion but How does one know that a package had Virgin queens in it. I had not heard of this occurring in a commercial Package business?


No doubt someone had some overpopulated hives that had become swarmy, then shook them down without noticing the presence of recent cell hatching, it can happen to the best of package producers on occasion. Apparently after they were hived the mated queens either swarmed out or were killed by the virgins. It all squares with what Dean saw a day later as newly hived bees will go in search of queen pheromone somewhere so the result is a virgin with just a handfull of remaining bees. BTW leaving nurse bees in a caged queen in a package is a really poor practice.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

Jim, generally we see.dead queens in cages when virgins are present in a package....presumably they are not being fed? Would attendants in the cage care.for the queen and keep her alive? That is what seems to have happened.

Deknow


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



jim lyon said:


> BTW leaving nurse bees in a caged queen in a package is a really poor practice.


Why so?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

Having nurse bees in the cage reduces the chance of acceptance. Taking them out of the cage is a pain. If the queen is in a package, the bees will care for her through the screen..no reason to have attendants in the cage. A mated.queen can easily be transported in her cage without attendants...if you put the cage in a apart sandwich bag or coffee cup.with lid, and put nurse bees (and food and water, depending on how long they will be in there) ....a bunch of cages.in a container of nurse bees is the best way to transport if the queens are.to be placed right away.

Deknow


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



deknow said:


> Having nurse bees in the cage reduces the chance of acceptance.
> Deknow


Did not know that, thanks.


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## jadell (Jun 19, 2011)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

I've never seen a package of bees arrive without attendants in the queen cages. That's how it's done here. I doubt it's a poor practice or it wouldn't be done by so many suppliers. Take everything on forums and the Internet with a grain of salt. I've never had a problem with acceptance either. I doubt I'm just always lucky.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



deknow said:


> ...you did call and ask if I needed anything....you did not offer anything to "make it right) .
> 
> Deknow


Sorry I am not a mind reader. When I asked if you needed *anything* I was expecting you to speak up.... which is why I asked.... We could have easily handled this without dragging down an entire thread on the forum. I assumed when you said no that that meant we were square. 

So to make this right I will publicly ask again? Do you need anything? I don't know what would have made you happy which is why I didn't specifically offer anything... I could have sent you extras, or queens, or a discount.... How am I supposed to know what to offer if when I ask your reply is NO?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



jadell said:


> I've never seen a package of bees arrive without attendants in the queen cages. That's how it's done here. I doubt it's a poor practice or it wouldn't be done by so many suppliers. Take everything on forums and the Internet with a grain of salt. I've never had a problem with acceptance either. I doubt I'm just always lucky.


Interesting.... let me rephrase. Its not the accepted practice as I have always known it. I am not an expert package producer but I have purchased, handled and installed 10's of thousands and I have never seen attendants in any of them. My assumption is that they can cause problems because they are often short lived and the dead bees get mired into the candy (though some come in packages without candy) and can cause problems with queen release. At the very least they are unnecessary and serve no purpose. When I have bought queens those that came in a "battery box" with free running attendants always had fewer dead queens than those that had attendants. Dont ever hold queens with attendants for more than a few days of that I am certain. Take it "with a grain of salt" if you wish but I handled truckload quantities from some of the best producers in the country for decades and I do know something about the issue.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



deknow said:


> Jim, generally we see.dead queens in cages when virgins are present in a package....presumably they are not being fed? Would attendants in the cage care.for the queen and keep her alive? That is what seems to have happened.
> 
> Deknow


That may well be the case, it sure introduces a whole new dynamic into the process and one that one way or the other probably wont end well thats for sure.


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

Every package I ever got had attendants in the cage with the queen I thought most places did this?


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## Terrance (Mar 21, 2012)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



jadell said:


> I've never seen a package of bees arrive without attendants in the queen cages. That's how it's done here. I doubt it's a poor practice or it wouldn't be done by so many suppliers. Take everything on forums and the Internet with a grain of salt. I've never had a problem with acceptance either. I doubt I'm just always lucky.


I am a first time beekeeper and the package that I bought didn't have attendants in the queen cage with her.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

Like I said in an above post. They put them in because some of their queens get shipped out as queens and some go into packages. If you have received packages without attendants with the queen it is most likely due to them coming from a tractor trailer size load. If the supplier knows that all of their queens for the week are going into a order of packages then there is no reason for them to spend the time putting attendants in... 

In or out it doesn't matter. I bought packages from Gardner and H and R this year and all had attendants. I got packages last season from Rossman's and Wilbanks and all of those had attendants. I don't buy 3000 packages at a time so they don't know which queens will be going into my packages and which they will be shipping as queens to other customers.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



bluegrass said:


> In or out it doesn't matter. I bought packages from Gardner and H and R this year and all had attendants. I got packages last season from Rossman's and Wilbanks and all of those had attendants. I don't buy 3000 packages at a time so they don't know which queens will be going into my packages and which they will be shipping as queens to other customers.


I got packages from Gardner's the year before last. No queens had attendants. I got packages from Willbanks last year and no queens had attendants.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

You got shorted 5 bees... Demand a refund.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



bluegrass said:


> So to make this right I will publicly ask again? Do you need anything? I don't know what would have made you happy which is why I didn't specifically offer anything... I could have sent you extras, or queens, or a discount.... How am I supposed to know what to offer if when I ask your reply is NO?


Dean, you plan to respond?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



bluegrass said:


> Sorry I am not a mind reader. When I asked if you needed *anything* I was expecting you to speak up.... which is why I asked.... We could have easily handled this without dragging down an entire thread on the forum. I assumed when you said no that that meant we were square.


First of all, when you called me, I was at a bee club meeting....none of the packages had been installed, as I had picked them up from Ken at 10am that morning. 

At that point in time, I had seen the packages, I knew that the way the queen cages were setup that it didn't look like how Rossman does things. I did not ask Ken if he knew where the packages came from, as any dispute was between you and me. I thanked him profusely, offered to do something nice in return. The packages looked good with few dead bees.

I should have asked you when you called where the bees came from, but again, I was at an event doing something else. I was going to email you to ask where the bees came from (by that point I had installed them and I was pretty sure they weren't from Rossman), but when I powered up my computer, I saw your post here saying where they came from.

You seem to think that a forum like this is a fine place to advertise your services, a fine place for others to post good reviews, a fine place to say that it makes no difference where a package comes from, a fine place to say the packages were of high quality, a fine place to take credit for doing a good job at delivering the packages.

....but you really dropped the ball with me. You took my money. You did not inform me that the pickup date had changed. You never contacted me to tell me where the pickup was going to happen. You never told me the supplier had changed. This is all fact, and is as important to the topic as a good review. I absolutely don't think you did anything intentionally here...but I am reporting on my experience.

You called me from two hours away asking where I was....and it wasn't until you got home that you were able to confirm that I somehow "dropped off your list".

You asked me if I needed anything...at that point, I had 20 packages in my basement (thanks to Ken for taking care of them), and I did not know I hadn't received what I had paid for (packages from Rossman). You offered nothing....now, after the fact you are giving me a litany of everything you would have done to take care of me....you didn't even know it was your fault until you got home...again, you offered nothing. I appreciate the apology, but I trusted you and did not get what I paid for, and did not get reasonable service.

We've had many packages from Rossman over the years...and they have consistently been better than the 2 times we got package bees from other sources. Fred is a skilled breeder, and I see value in the best of the package queens...those that we don't need as we requeen with our own stock we sell to other local beekeepers...we feel good about the quality of the queens from Rossman...and the two things that made me decide to use you as a source for the packages were the price and the fact they were coming from Rossman. You would not have heard from me if you had offered bees from Gardener/Spell.

I will report back about the final fate of the packages. As I said, some had virgins, and I think we lost some of the bees to the trees.

2 absconded (I was able to recover one of those...I think). Some have 1 frame of bees with a virgin (one box had a frame of honey we had put in on one side...full of bees.....and on the other side was a cluster of about 20 workers and a mated queen).

I used frames of brood when installing the final 5 packages, hoping to keep them in the box (and a nuc is leftover to rebuild itself instead of going into a 10 frame box).



> So to make this right I will publicly ask again? Do you need anything? I don't know what would have made you happy which is why I didn't specifically offer anything... I could have sent you extras, or queens, or a discount.... How am I supposed to know what to offer if when I ask your reply is NO?


...you are supposed to offer what you think you owe me. In this case, I'm not sure more than an apology is possible or appropriate....I know hauling packages is a thankless task and exhausting. I'm not going to get the bees I paid for in any case.

Bringing in packages is always a risk (travel, disease, etc), and I was willing to take that risk with bees coming from Rossmans. I'll be pretty upset if disease problems develop in bees from a source I would not have brought into my apiary...but hoping for the best.

I have said that you should do something for Ken, he is the on that stuck his neck out to fix your mistake.

deknow


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

any experenced beekeeper knows there are no guarantees in beekeeping. things happen. If things had not changed you probably would not have gotten any bees. a loss of 15% of new queens is not unusual. no one seemed to do anything wrong on purpose so maybe its best to get over it. at least it took the pressure off better bee as no one seems to be bashing them this year.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

...I hope we can keep in mind that in a thread titled, "Great Packages From Bluegrass" I posted the following:


> Err...the packages looked good...very few dead bees.
> At least 4 of the 15 I installed in one spot had virgins in the package...killing the mated queen that accounts for a.significant percentage of the cost of the package.
> The post on beesource I responded to stated.that they were.coming from rossmans...which is a big reason I purchased them......not gardner/spell.
> The worst of it is that the delivery was.moved.up a.week, and I was never.called, emailed, or pm. I got a call a.week before they were supposed to arrive that he was in a mall parkinglot 2 hours away.
> ...


I was giving what I see as a fair review (with little pejoritive language) of the facts in my transaction...which I did not feel was so fantastic.

Everything else has been in reply to a defensive stance...I don't really appreciate someone who didn't give me what I paid for and provided terrible service telling me to "get over it"....and implying that I should keep my experience to myself.

deknow


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

I too received packages from Bluegrass last week, I did want bees from Rossman's but I have no problem with Gardner's, had them last year from another dealer, no problems. Bluegrass dropped them at my place within the time window he said he would, the bees looked great and are all doing great, every queen looked fine to me and were released within 3 days, working great now. I have had packages from others as well and some had atendents in the queen cage and some did not. I had never met or talked to Bluegrass before this transaction. This forum is where I found him. I will use him again, no worries here. Lets hope all 10 packages do well this year.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

Dean
Ken was compensated for bringing the bees to you. If he wasn't standing right there and headed in that direction anyway I would have brought them out my self. 

Fred has the highest of opinions of Gardner's operation. They actually do quite a bit of business with each other. All of Gardner's cages and packages are provided by Rossman... Many of Rossman's queens are provided by Gardner. 

I don't know if you have ever been to a package producer in GA, but their stock is pretty much all the same. Their yards over lap and they all work together every spring to get each other's orders filled.(with few exceptions) Which is one reason why you never see a business name printed on a package... Sometimes they don't come from who you order them from. 

I don't let any package queens head a hive into winter. I requeen all first year packages in July.

If it is Rossman bees you want I can have them ship you 20 queens.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



beeware10 said:


> at least it took the pressure off better bee as no one seems to be bashing them this year.


You can't get bashed for not selling bees I guess  In the past I have refrained from offering package bees to forum members for this reason... I may return to that policy in the future.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



bluegrass said:


> Dean
> I don't let any package queens head a hive into winter. I requeen all first year packages in July.


Are you saying you kill all queens after 2 months or after 14 months?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



bluegrass said:


> You can't get bashed for not selling bees I guess  In the past I have refrained from offering package bees to forum members for this reason... I may return to that policy in the future.


So the implication is that any issues I'm having are as a result of you offering packages to forum members, and not due to how you held up your end of the deal? ...or that it is somehow "unfair" for me to give an accurate account of what happened?

deknow


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



jim lyon said:


> Are you saying you kill all queens after 2 months or after 14 months?


Yes I kill them all after two months. 



deknow said:


> So the implication is that any issues I'm having are as a result of you offering packages to forum members, and not due to how you held up your end of the deal? ...or that it is somehow "unfair" for me to give an accurate account of what happened?
> 
> deknow


There was no implication. It is just easier to deal with people directly. They call or email me if they have a problem and we work it out.


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## Terrance (Mar 21, 2012)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

I think its about time this thread/feud be ended or taken offline so the masses dont have to read unnecessary banter


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

seems to me it brings out a persons true charactor. lol


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*



bluegrass said:


> It is just easier to deal with people directly. They call or email me if they have a problem and we work it out.


Errr...I did deal with you directly. I sent you a check for over $1500 and we spoke on the phone a couple of times.

I also expect a phone call or an email if there is a problem (and yes, I know package timing is often changed...sometimes at the last minute). ...but this is exactly what I didn't get. You had a working phone number, a working email address, and a working PM account on beesource for me.

Last we spoke, the pickup date was set, but the location was not...and the bees were supposed to come from Rossmans (as advertised on Beesource).

So when there were problems...the pickup date moved up, the pickup location decided, the source of the bees changing....I would have expected to get a phone call.

When we did speak, you said that you had emailed me with all the updates. [edit: I don't want to be misunderstood....when you called me from the pickup location you said you had sent me updates...when you returned home and looked in your records you told me that I had somehow "dropped off your list"]

...and when this is reported on this thread I'm told to get over it, and that all packages are the same...and that the rest of your customers are happy. I'm really not trying to give you a hard time...I understand that things happen (I have customers as well, and I've made mistakes I had to apologize for). I don't appreciate being treated like I did something wrong....I didn't.



deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

...for those wanting to know how to get attendants out of the cage before introducing (there are those that say it makes no difference, but I don't know of anyone that would introduce a queen they cared about without first removing the attendants), here is a short video of Michael Palmer showing how.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

Mike Palmer doesn't use packages. So yes he may not want to introduce strange attendants into a hive he is requeening. Different circumstances. 

20 replacement queens shipped from Fred Rossman plus my apology for my mistake(s) is my offer... Do you want me to place the order or not?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

Errr, I hope what you shared about Rossman and Gardener is more informed that what you are saying about Michael. ...no, he does not use packages...but those attendants are from his own mating nucs...the same nucs the queen emerged into. The attendants are in the cage in order to care for the queen between being caught in the mating nuc and introduced into the newly made up queenless nuc. He has enough invested in the queens by this point in time that he wants to give the best chance of acceptance....which is rather universally considered to be without attendants. The video was shot in the beeyard just before the queen cages were introduced into queenless nucs.

Rossman queens at this point will do me little good...by the time I dequeen the packages and introduce new queens my first batch of virgins will be ready to be placed.

...but an apology is a darn sight better than telling me to get over it.

deknow


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## johns bees (Jan 25, 2009)

*Re: Great packages from Bluegrass . . .*

All the queens i purchased last year all came with attendants in the cage. Introduced all the queens to there new hives with attendants 
and 
not one queen was rejected . If it was a problem why would queen producer put attendants in the cage in the first place.
Koeheon in california advertices that there queens come with attendants.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Queens keep much better in a "battery box" with free running bees in the box that can access candy and a sponge soaked in water and no attendants in the cages. However that is only feasible with larger orders. The only economical way to ship small orders is with attendants in the cages. It works fine but they should be used promptly as the health of the queen is totally dependent on the health and vitality of a relatively few workers.


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