# Beekeeping for Profit



## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

Another question I thought of. Is there generally more money in pollination (local farmer type, not shipping them to california or anything like that) or in honey production, or is the balance somewhere in between? A lot of pumpkins are raised around here and I hear that the going rate is around $50 per hive for a season and that each farmer usually wants 3 or 4 hives on a pumpkin patch. Also a lot of soybeans, but I'm not sure how willing farmers are to put bees on them.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

This is a general answer and there are a lot of things that can change the example, weather for example. Beekeeping is, after all, agriculture, and any farmer can tell you how much can go wrong, but the following is what I have found to be AVERAGE here in the north GA mountains.

I run deeps as brood chambers, with a medium for bee's stores, and mediums as honey supers. I harvest as supers are filled rather than 1-2 times a year. When the first super above stores is 2/3 full, I add another super. When it is 2/3 full, and the first is full, I pull the full one, drop the next down to the top of the stores, and add an empty. Where I am that is usually every two weeks, which means a hive produces 30 lbs of honey twice a month for a 10-12 week season. This is average weather, but optimal conditions otherwise...good pest/disease control success, good overwintering, queens laying good, etc. Nothing is ever optimal, and beekeeping is no different. Reality means instead of the 300 lbs a year the above would give, I average 200 lbs a year per hive.  At an average retail of $4.00/lb that is $800.00/hive per season. To do that I move my hives 8-10 times a year to follow the flow. I only move from just south of Atlanta to the GA TN border, but moving many hives that many times is a lot of work, and expense.


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

Does anyone have any insight as to whether or not it's feasible to try to pollinate and produce some honey at the same time? It seems the $50 bucks for less than optimal real estate for the bees would be counterproductive. Sounds to me like I want to keep them here on our 6 1/2 acres in the afternoon shade and where I can keep an eye on them and medicate/feed easily, etc.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<Sounds to me like I want to keep them here on our 6 1/2 acres in the afternoon shade and where I can keep an eye on them and medicate/feed easily, etc.>>

If you want to make a living in ANYTHING in agriculture you ought to get that word "easily" out of your vocabulary.

BubbaBob


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

I'm not looking to make a living. Just supplement the income.


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## Lesli St. Clair (Jan 3, 2005)

I'm hoping to start by getting the girls to pay for themselves. So I have a DBA (doing-business-as) and the bees have their own checking account now. The idea being to keep track of the money, prove to the IRS that this is a business, and keep myself motivated to earn some money. 

The flow of cash will be outwards for a while, I realize. Good thing I have a full time job! I want to focus on a few of things at a time, to keep it manageable: extracted, chunk, propolis, pollen, candles, for instance. Work up to adding nucs, queen rearing, creamed honey, pollination, etc. That will give me time to build up my skills and the number of hives I run.

Too bad the seasons are so short in Upstate NY!


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

FWIW...
In evaluating businesses for sale, I've noticed a particular aspect I call the "killing zone". It's a point beyond "small" where the resources required to sustain the business are more costly than the revenues they generate can support. Some folks tend to think that costs and expenses and the resulting revenue/profit can be expressed in a nice smooth upward curve. They really can't. They're actually step-variable in most cases, and the result for the unsuspecting is a situation wherein your business, even if it's a sideline, demands resources and expensive expertise that won't generate sufficient revenue yet must be provided given the size and complexity of your growth. 
Think of an extractor as an example. A two-frame hand cranked model will handle a given number of frames in a day. At some point you're either working 24/7 to keep up, or perhaps you're not keeping up and other tasks needing attention go begging. So you upgrade to a model that will do the same job in an hour. But now you've got money tied up in equipment that's only being utilized at maybe 20% of it's capacity, so next year you increase your hives and production to keep the extractor busy, which creates a mismatch between output and your other physical facilities. It just keeps multiplying in the "killing zone" until you reach a point where you're either a full-blown big-time operation that can support the various imbalanced and mismatched resource requirements or the whole thing tanks for lack of money.
I don't know where the cutoff is in terms of investment, size, revenue etc. for honey production but I'll guarantee it exists and people need to be aware of it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

If your father is willing to help, then you are set. Work him in the honey house as you make your honey rounds. You will not need to hire an employee.


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## athiker (May 31, 2003)

I am just a hobbyist with 6 hives, and only going into my 3rd year of beekeeping. So far, I would be really happy to break even. I am hoping, this is the year. But then, 10 hives is getting closer all of the time.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<In evaluating businesses for sale, I've noticed a particular aspect I call the "killing zone". >>

I would also suggest that the "killing zone" is going to vary wildly between businesses, particularly in beekeeping. I've seen it many times on dairy farms.

Two operations, essentially the same on paper, one will be a sheriff's auction soon, the other is raking it in hand over fist. There seem to be as many consultants as farmers these days, and every one that walks through my family's barn says the same thing: "You're too small to make it. Get big or get out." Then they go and sit down with their accountant, the only one who sees their bottom line, and he smiles and says "Don't change a thing."

Two rules I've learned from their experience on making it in a business that eats hopes and dreams for breakfast:

1 "Sweat equity" Buying expensive equipment to get done fast just means a longer wait before bedtime. 

2 Deduct everything possible.


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

We're also looking to get big enough that we can deduct things that would not be used solely for beekeeping. Dad's wanted a skid loader w/ a trailer for stuff around the farm forever. I suggested that if we strapped 4 hives to a pallet and found a few farmers who wanted pollination, we might be able to write off the $15k or whatever we'd end up paying for the loader and trailer. Any comments/thoughts/suggestions on this?


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## SageBrush (Jun 18, 2004)

I use double pallets to advoid the need of a tractor, I have a L4330 Kubota with forks, but I would not want to haul it around to move hives. The quads are to heavy for a custom hand truck. I don't move mine yet, but I already have a one ton truck, 30' flat deck trailer etc. Those will take a long time to pay for with honey, but I use them for other things too.

The local guys tell me it takes 30 to 40 colonies to make more than you put in. For most people it takes at least three years to break even with 30 if you start from scratch. Selling Nucs to locals and packages are a way to make money if you don't have the equipment to bottle large quanities. 

Plus, if you buy used decappers, tanks, pumps, sumps, extractors, heat exchangers, filters and such you can spend about a third of the cost of new equipment. It depends on what your going to put in the honey house and how you move the hives. How many colonies per yard, distance between them, hive equipment cost too. Will you make your own boxes, buy in bulk, have your own wood shop? Lots of varibles. You can spend 20K on honey house equipment very quick if you want the automated stuff.  I know I do.


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## Mark Johnson (Apr 8, 2004)

From reading this forum, I can't help but conclude that the profit potential from keeping bees varies tremendously from region to region in North America. Before jumping from the ranks of hobbyists to a commercial operation, I would do a lot of homework on what other big operators are doing in your own area. 

For example, where I live the guys with more than hobbyist-level numbers of hives all focus on pollination contracts. Lots of apple orchard operations in this region. One oldtimer told us at Class 1 for Beginning Beekeepers "Nobody 'round here can put their kids through college on honey money, so get that idea outta your heads." So recon the "competition" in your area. 

A friend of mine who is a high-level business consultant once told me "you can only forecast  at best  about 2/3rds of what will come to pass, so plan with that kind of margin for resources and manpower."

A word about your dad  my own dad retired about 7 years ago, and his health then was superb. Dad's main retirement income comes from three rental houses he bought and fixed up when he was in his 50s & 60s. His assumption was that he could continue to stay ahead of the routine plumbing, painting, and other minor maintenance in his retirement years. If he has to pay somebody else to do those tasks, the profit margin melts away. As the years roll by, it is more and more difficult for him to accomplish the physical tasks he once considered a snap. Then he had a fall off a ladder and messed up a shoulder, and the whole universe of what he could realistically handle shifted. I have frankly been surprised by how fast the downhill slide has become. In my dad's case, it isn't loss of mental power or demoralization; in those departments, he's as positive and as sharp as he ever was.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<Dad's wanted a skid loader w/ a trailer for stuff around the farm forever. I suggested that if we strapped 4 hives to a pallet and found a few farmers who wanted pollination, we might be able to write off the $15k or whatever we'd end up paying for the loader and trailer. Any comments/thoughts/suggestions on this?>>

This is pretty much what I'm talking about with "sweat equity". He's "wanted" it forever, but hasn't really NEEDED it. But at the same time, a skid loader is one of the few things versatile enough to justify planning a farm around. I'm not sure how well that will transfer to a bee operation though.

But as far as writing it off, you'll have to find someone familiar with the tax code and your unique situation to answer that. 

<<From reading this forum, I can't help but conclude that the profit potential from keeping bees varies tremendously from region to region in North America.>>

I don't think it's regional at all. Pick any region, from desert to mountains to swamp to near-tundra, and you can probably find someone keeping bees there profitably. Then look at what would be considered an "ideal" area, and you can probably find someone going bankrupt in a hurry there, too. I think it mostly boils down to the person running the show.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

1. Put your foot on your expenses and keep it there. Never let up.

2. Anticipate the requirements and the workload you are willing to to work with.

3. Whatever profit you figure you can make, cut it in half and you will be much closer to reality.


The minimum number of colonies that can be made to pay is 1 but the time and effort you put in doesn't become economical until you have at least 50 colonies.

The cost of the bees will be approximately the same as the cost of the handling equipment until you have at least 100 colonies. If you figure you can get 100 colonies of bees for $100 each including supers, bees, tops, bottoms, frames, foundation, etc, you will have invested $10,000. You will need extracting equipment, a small truck, and possibly a loader to go with that. If you are lucky thats another $10,000. From personal experience, the only way you can get this cheap is to build your own boxes and buy cheap used equipment. There is a BIG tradeoff there.

A good beekeeper can almost always make $100 per colony per year. This infers using some for pollination and some to produce honey. Your best profit potential is to do some of each.

A careful answer to your question is that 75 to 100 colonies is about enough to make a semi-paying enterprise. As noted above, you will find many disparities between the capacity of your processing equipment and the number of colonies you can care for.

Fusion


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

Well, for the most part, what I have read here is what I expected and certainly not what I wanted. Looks like I'll be sticking with 4 hives and a frown. If you know some way to end up with a whole hive for $100 bucks you're already a few steps ahead of me. I can't find anywhere to buy lumber except lowes and menards here and it's twice as cheap to just buy them from dadant at those prices. On top of that, I can't find any beeyards that ship cheap enough to make those numbers realistic. I've done a really good job so far getting ahold of used equipment cheap. I got an older 4 frame extractor for 10 bucks because the valve was "broken". Turned out the bolt was just on too tight. Anyway, thanks for all the time you all put into this post. You probably all saved me what would have turned into one enormous headache.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> You probably all saved me what would have turned into one enormous headache


Shoot. I hope we weren't too discouraging. I don't think anyone intended to suggest that you not move forward, just that a person needs to be aware of the pitfalls. Heaven knows we've all made a few mistakes, and if we can spare someone else a bit of headache we'd like to. (And there's always the possibility we're wrong.) As Oat Willie used to say "Onward thru the fog".


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

Thanks coyote, but the fact that I'll be out of med school and a practicing doctor by the time I even break even (if that ever happens) makes the idea of trying to make any money at this seem a bit foolish. I love my bees and maybe all those exterminators I gave my number to will pay off, but the startup cost is just too great and the pitfalls too many. I probably sound so disappointed because I'm an optimist by nature and I really wanted to believe I could make it work. I wish I could find someone getting out, because that looks to be the only way I can reasonably do this. If any of you hear about cheap equipment in the central Illinois area please tell me.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>skid loader is one of the few things versatile enough to justify planning a farm around. I'm not sure how well that will transfer to a bee operation though.

are you kidding??   

>>I'm an optimist by nature and I really wanted to believe I could make it work
>>but the startup cost is just too great and the pitfalls too many

If you are giving up that easy, then I guess you'd be better not to get big into beekeeping. Getting into it for huge returns is not the reason to get into beekeeping. It more less holds a way of life, and that more or less is what keeps all beekeeper keeping bees. Nobody get rich at this game,...


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

>>skid loader is one of the few things versatile enough to justify planning a farm around. I'm not sure how well that will transfer to a bee operation though.

<<are you kidding?? >>

I'll clarify, I know how valuable a skid loader can be on a dairy farm. I've never worked more than 6 hives though, so I'm not sure if it's worth the cost in beekeeping.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

Any business growing to fast is a problem. I feel 30 hives will be enough to make buying an extractor worth while. I have been selling a few nucs to get money to put back into the business. This fall I should have 30 to 50 hives. I am also planning on selling a few more nucs to buy more equipment. Paying cash for everything is a great start for a business as interest on debts eat into proffits in a hurry. Try making contacts with local home builders. I make most of my equipment from the left overs left behind by the builders. Plywood is getting hard to get as everyone around here has went to Advantech and OSB boards.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<I don't think it's regional at all. Pick any region, from desert to mountains to swamp to near-tundra, and you can probably find someone keeping bees there profitably. Then look at what would be considered an "ideal" area, and you can probably find someone going bankrupt in a hurry there, too. I think it mostly boils down to the person running the show.>>

Absolutely.

The difference between profit and loss, outside of the weather, is deciding if you want to make money and run a business, or would rather be a hobbiest that makes a little money. A business minded person standardizes, uses tried and true methods, leaves the "newest thing" up to the research labs and expirimenters until it becomes proven practice (small cell comes to mind). A hobbiest minded person might have 5 hives being managed under 4 different methods "just to see what happens". That is garunteed failure if you want to make money.

As for the cost involved in start-up, it CAN be prohibitave, but it doesn't have to be. I have NEVER bought a piece of new equipment outside of the minor things like veils, smokers, etc. There is ALWAYS someone around wanting to get out of the beekeeping business, and it is usually for pennies on the dollar. Last week I bought out a 20 year sideliner. He hurt his back, had back surgery, and can no longer handle the weight of harvesting, moving equipment, etc. I picked up 50 co;onies, 50 empty deeps. 300 shallow supers w/foundation and drawn comb, 150 mediums in the same shape, 3 20 frame radial extractors, 3 55 gal bottling tanks, an electric uncapper, three trailers that hold 20 hives each that are made to haul hives and set them up 20 at the time without removing them from the trailer, and all the accumulated stuff he had collected over 20 years...besides the hives 3 U-Haul 24 foot trucks worth of stuff...all for less than 10,000. After sorting the stuff, and culling the junk, I inventoried it and went through the Dadant catalog pricing everything and it came to over 40,000 dollars plus the cost of bees. If each hive makes 100 lbs of honey (would be a bad year if that happens) that is 400 dollars per hive, per year (I can sell every drop at 4 a pound). 400 per hive over 50 hives is 20,000.

Keep your eyes open and this can be done without losing your rear for 2-3 years first.

BubbaBob


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

Is there anything special you do to find people going out like that? There is one guy close who's going out and I've been playing phone tag with him for 2 months now. No matter when I call he's not home and he always calls while I'm in classes. Pretty much everything I was interested in is gone now, I think. I'm afraid this might have been my chance... I would definetly go big without looking back if I could avoid buying everything new.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<Is there anything special you do to find people going out like that?>>

Spread the word, and keep your ears open. The more people that know you're looking, the better. Let the auctioneers in your area know, and find time to go to ALL the bee meetings in your area. The one you miss, somebody'll stand up and say "I'm out! Who wants it all?"

<<I'm afraid this might have been my chance... I would definetly go big without looking back if I could avoid buying everything new. >>

No, it wasn't your chance. It was A chance. There will be MANY more. We are a small group, and unfortunately the number of people getting out always seems higher than those getting in. Especially operations that cost more than $1000 to buy out.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

east, the guy I bought out ran a classified in the Georgia Extension Service's Market Bulletin, a weekly agriculture oriented newspaper. Your state extension office may have a similar publication.

When I first started keeping bees I was going to start with 2-3 hives, mainly due to expense and assuming I'd have to buy all new stuff. As it turned out, because I stumbled across a guy wanting out, I started with 6 colonies plus 6 extra deeps, 40 mediums, 3 cases of extra medium foundation, a NEW 9 frame hand crank Dadant extractor, a 25 gallon bottling tank, 2 hive tools, 2 smokers, 2 hot knives, 2 string tied veils, and 10 cases of Ball quarts...for 800 bucks. Deals are out there...keep looking.

BubbaBob


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## manbee (Sep 22, 2003)

Bubbabob you hear of another deal like yours let me know asap............


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

I finally got ahold of the guy who's been standing me up for 2 months... told me tonight that he just cleaned a guy out at $2 per deep super. I want to cry now. I don't know what the hell I have to do to "get in the loop" here, but I'm obviously not in it. Also, all the stuff he had for sale that I wanted is now gone, all he has left is a 30 year old chain uncapper that he wants like $200 for. Some people never get the breaks.


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## Walt McBride (Apr 4, 2004)

east_stingray, where are you located? You did not indicate in your profile.
Walt


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

How old are you stingray? If you are going to be going to medical school and residency, then you have no business getting into commercial beekeeping. Sounds like you need to learn more about medicine and beekeeping! Maybe after paying off your student loans you could spend enough time to do this. By then, profit and expense will not make a difference to you if you are like most physicians. 

Maybe I know some students, some doctors as I work at a hospital as a nurse....nursebee


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<< If you are going to be going to medical school and residency, then you have no business getting into commercial beekeeping.>>

I personally don't think any of us have any business telling someone else what they should or should not do. In AA we call that taking someone else's inventory, and we'd rather keep our own side of the street clean than worry about someone else's section of street.

BubbaBob


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Had I started out at 18 as a beekeeper, rather
than going to college, I would have avoided
over a quarter century of the whole "rat race",
and would have spent my entire adult life as
happy as I am now.

There's nothing wrong with modern life, but there's
very little "right" with it.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Go for it Stingray.......

I second your sentiment Jim!! I moved here out in the boones in 1999. No neighbors for a mile, and a driveway a mile long. 

When I return for visits to St. Cloud, Mn or to Mpls to visit my dad, I can hardly take it. People racing up on your ars...... a mad dog look in their eyes..... traffic...... Houses 15 feet apart! I'm staying out of that rat race til' I pass.


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

Well guys, I went to look at that chain uncapper even though I was pretty sure I didn't want it. I didn't end up getting it, but I did take a nice stainless steel uncapping sink off of his hands for $80. It's about 8 feet long and will hold about 4 supers worth of frames... in real good condition. This guy had a mint honey house and it was worth the trip to talk to him. He ended up giving me 24 deep supers and 5 shallows for free. The deeps are in pretty bad condition, but usable. The shallows are like new, but the frame rest isn't as deep as it's supposed to be... not sure what the story there is, but he said he didn't have time to router it down more. He also gave me a whole bundle of side pieces already dadoed to make bottom boards. All I have to do is cut a back and put the plywood in. On top of that, he is making a trip to dadant this month and said he'd have some extra room and would pick up the frames I'll need and foundation and anything else so that I won't pay shipping. Maybe all that *****ing I did paid off







. Oh, and I want to have more bees because I love bees. It doesn't really have anything to do with me going to med school. Med school is more about how I love to do expensive things like keeping bees. Thanks for the support BubbaBob.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

East///great! Keep looking around and more stuff will show up at good prices.

The only thing you said that I would do different than you say you are going to is about the bottom boards...you have side rails and need to add bottoms. If it were me, I'd add a piece of 1x4 front and back and have the rest screened. A several year long study over a couple thousand hives, by the entomology dept at the University of Georgia's (Drs Keith Delaplane and Jamie Ellis there are great) bee studies lab shows that with no other action/treatment, screened bottom boards reduce SHB infestation 17%. With the materials you have you are in the position to start with them rather than having to change over existing hives.

BubbaBob


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

BubbaBob... you're exactly right and I probably would have done that anyway, I was just excited and typing fast. You mean to put the 1X4 flat so that you have something to attach the screen to, right? I have to think about how I'm going to do it, but I've already got a roll of screen out there and plywood is stinking expensive here! I think with the help of my friend BONDO I can fix some of the holes and cracks in those boxes. Anyone else here ever use that stuff for wood? It works great, but it's made for bodywork on cars. Just wondering.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Hey you're in the loop now!Over the years ,once in a while someone would call and say something like"Hey I have all this old beekeeping stuff that is taking up space in my garage .It belonged to Uncle Harry who passed away..Will you come getit?"So if everyone knows you are the local bee guy these deals will fall into your lap occasionally.We had a doctor give us a truckload of boxes and frames a few years back.He just didnt have time to keep bees of course.Although recently I heard he was in trouble for alledgedly trading narcotics for oral.....oh never mind.Guess he should have stayed with beekeeping.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

east...yep...put a 1x4 flat across the front and back, put a back rail on, screen the bottom and hold the screen edges with 1/4 x 1 or 1/4 x 2 lathe like lattice screens are made of...voila...inexpensive screeded bottom boards. Soak in copper napthanate and let dry before painting and if you put them together well they'll last 15-20 years.

BubbaBob


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## Lew Best (Jan 8, 2005)

east_stingray I sent you a private message

Lew


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<I did take a nice stainless steel uncapping sink off of his hands for $80.>>

Now you're making ME wanna cry Good thing I'm going to look at what might be a gold mine this weekend, or I might let my spirits get dragged down.

<< If you are going to be going to medical school and residency, then you have no business getting into commercial beekeeping.>>

<<I personally don't think any of us have any business telling someone else what they should or should not do.>>

It makes me happy to be on a forum where someone will chime in with that in under an hour.

I knew I didn't want in on the rat race at 18. But dairying was the only thing I had enough knowledge of to even consider, and it's pretty difficult to start off with one cow on a friend's land

Bees are much more versatile, and I have yet to see someone whose life CAN'T accomodate commercial beekeeping on some scale.

I just wish someone had drilled that through my thick skull 11 years ago.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

dcross, it takes what it takes.

I'm 50 and spent 33 years as a functioning alcoholic chasing the American Dream until I got so bad I couldn't function any more for me to decide to live rather than exist...and a big part of living was giving up the stupid notion that bigger houses and fancier cars made for "living".

She Who Must Be Obeyed (SWMBO for short)and I laugh about how we had to get into our fifties to become hippies finally...politically conservative hippies, that is.

As for what I said that you quoted...Alcoholics Anonymous teaches a person a lot more than just how to not drink, and that is just one example.

BubbaBob


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<a big part of living was giving up the stupid notion that bigger houses and fancier cars made for "living".>>

I traded in my convertible less than a month ago


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

I think someone upstairs is telling me to quit complaining so much. I went to visit my high school chemistry teacher between classes today, and he was really happy to see me. He was by far my favorite teacher, and it was a lot of fun to see him. A couple of weeks ago I sent him an email to ask if the rest of the science dept. would like an observation hive and that all they had to do was buy the stuff and I'd take care of it for them. I really expected a no because the admin. is really uptight and I figured they'd be screaming "lawsuit!!". Well, while I was there the whole science dept. came into his room and were jumping all over each other trying to convince me that "my room's the best for the bees!". Turns out the admin loves the idea and I'm going to get my first experience with an observation hive. Also, I dropped some stray comment about using OA for bees, and being a very chemistry oriented mind (that's my major) we got into a conversation about using it, he goes into the chemical room and comes out with a huge bottle of lab-grade OA crystals and says "we never use this and the EPA is going to take it in a week to dispose of it, just don't tell anyone I gave it to you." So now I have a large quantity of lab-grade crystals that I don't have to buy. Life is sweet. On that note, I can't find anywhere (maybe I haven't looked hard enough) how big of an entrance a 1 deep and 1 shallow ob. hive needs. There's already a hole that they want to use that's about 3/4 of an inch in diameter, and I told them that if they could talk the admin into drilling two more on top of it and cutting the sides to a rectangle shape I thought it would be big enough. The science wing is new, and they don't want holes in the glass on the windows or anything like that.


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

Oh, also, I was pointing them in the direction of Dadant's ob. hive because it's under $100 and they don't have a huge budget for this project. If any of you know of any better deals (other than me building one for them... I have already decided not to do that) please let me know.


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

Hey Bubba, thanks for sharing. Seems to me that posting questions on a net forum is a way of asking for feedback. I hope if I ask for help you will give it to me. 

My experience with bees right now is that at times they require quite a bit of time. Commercial beekeeping might mean working in the rain, in the cold. For many it means seeing hives once a week to treat with Terramycin or even fogging. My experience with medical school is that it is serious business that does not regularly aloow checking bees once a week. My experience watching residents is that they are sleep deprived. They have serious problems like working 100+ hours a week. They take call based upon the demands of others and schedules offer little flexibility. If you need to treat bees, split, extract, build, paint, bottle, sell, etc... on the scale that profitable folks do, then this is really tough.

Perhaps my frame of reference for some of this is a little off. Sideliners I know have or have had a 40 hour a week job. Larger folks do bees full-time with hundreds or more hives. THis is not what a medical student or resident can do (unless the exceptional genius). The time commitment is simply too much.

I expect that most beekeepers grew through paying the bills some other way. My slight participation in the "rat race" affords my hobbies.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

A couple of points nursebee...

<<Hey Bubba, thanks for sharing. Seems to me that posting questions on a net forum is a way of asking for feedback. I hope if I ask for help you will give it to me.>>

Right...and he has asked numerous intelligent questions regarding the "how to" part of commercial beekeeping. I don't recall his asking anything remotely like, "I'm studying to be a doctor...do I have time to keep bees too?" If he did, I might have an opinion to offer, and I might not, but I definitely would NOT say, "You have no business going into beekeeping." Laying out information is our job if we are asked. What is, or is not, HIS business is just that, HIS business.

<<My experience with bees right now is that at times they require quite a bit of time. Commercial beekeeping might mean working in the rain, in the cold. For many it means seeing hives once a week to treat with Terramycin or even fogging. My experience with medical school is that it is serious business that does not regularly aloow checking bees once a week. My experience watching residents is that they are sleep deprived. They have serious problems like working 100+ hours a week. They take call based upon the demands of others and schedules offer little flexibility. If you need to treat bees, split, extract, build, paint, bottle, sell, etc... on the scale that profitable folks do, then this is really tough.>>

All valid points, and, again, if he asked if he would have time to be a commercial beekeeper, pointing out the time requirements would be valid, but first he didn't ask, and second he stated he AND A RELATIVE were considering doing it together.

As I said, I have a full time job taking care of what IS my business. I have NO business telling someone else what is their business.

And yes...if you or anyone else asked my opinion or advice I'd give it, but I have found that there are few things in life that are appreciated less than unsolicited advice.

BubbaBob


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Year #1) I started 9 years ago with (1) hive, and a few used boxes, bottoms, inner covers, and tops from a hobby keeper who passed and his equipment was given to me. 

Year #2) The next year I bought a colony and split it. ($100.00) 3  hives

After the first (2) years, where I spent about $100.00 out of pocket, I have used the money I made from selling honey to buy whatever was needed.

Year #3) 5 hives	

Year #4) 6 hives - Then I bought the equipment from a small sideliner going out of business. I got a 4-frame hand crank Woodman, uncapping tank, bottling tank, Deeps, mediums, comb supers, double hive mover, hive tools, electric knives, (13) cases of 2# jars, etc. ($800.00)

Year #5) 10 hives

Year #6) 10 hives

Year #7) 14 hives - Then I bought a (2) frame Kelly motorized extractor, electric knives, hive tools, etc. ($200.00) 

Year #8) 20 hives

Year #9) 22 hives - Then I bought the 9-frame reel for the Kelly. ($150.00) 

Year #10) So, this year I will be going from 21 hives to 45 hives. The increase will cost me $180.00 for (3) packages, about $400.00 for new frames, and about $250.00 for the additional hive components. I already have the rough cut lumber to make whatever else I need. I will be making 21 splits that will raise their own queens.
This year I am buying the extra equipment from another keeper who is scaling back. (working on price and equipment list) 

I have averaged 100# of honey per over wintered hive over the years. So, at $4.00 / lb this year each of the 21 hives has the potential to bring in $400.00.

Beekeeping can be profitable if you plan right and take it slow. Dont jump in and get in over your head. Always keep your ears and eyes open for opportunities that may come your way. Put your name out as someone who is looking for swarms, extra equipment, and even placed to set up yards. You might be pleasantly surprised at what comes your way and what you find.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I got one of those calls. "We had to put Mom in the care home, and now we have all this equipment piled up and wonder if you want to come and take it away?"

So I went and got a trailor load of stuff, hauled it 75 miles and had a good bon fire.  

All I really got was a box of unassembled shallow frames and a couple of screens. Oh yeah, and really dirty.

I did once buy some used stuff from a retired beekeeper. By the time I burned the frames, scraped, torched, tightened, primed, and painted the boxes, I realized that buying new would have been cheaper and last longer.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>and had a good bon fire.
Yep, been there.But I have gotten some good stuff too,that was actually assembled properly and still had some life.But nowdays I feel the same as you- used woodenware isnt worth the trouble.But there was a time when I would go get anything free.


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## beegee (Jun 3, 2003)

Let's see...3 years ago, I caught a swarm. I had to buy a hive, so I figure I spent about $200 or so for a new veil, hive, frames, etc. I already had a hive tool and smoker. Then those bees went queenless,so I bought another colony for $65.00 and united them. Then last year I spent another $500 on woodenware, etc. This year, I've already spent $1000 for new woodenware, foundation etc., and lost a colony to starvation so subtract another $75.00 for bees plus potential income. I have 4 hives, and will spend $240 for 4 nucs in April. If my 8 hives produce enough honey to break even on equipment, let alone pay for my labor I'd be surprised. I guess that's why it's a hobby. My plan is to build up to at least 60 hives so I can rent out some hives for pollination. I figure I'd have to have 400-500 hives to make a meager living. It's easier to keep on working for real $$ and play with the bees for fun. It reminds me of the guys who were buying watermelons in Florida for $1.00 and trucking them to NY City and selling them for $1.00. When they saw they didn't make any money, they decided they needed to buy a bigger truck.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>When they saw they didn't make any money, they decided they needed to buy a bigger truck. 

That's me, I need a bigger truck.

For all the stuff I have been buying the last couple of years, I'm doing good to just break even. My investment plan is to do as good of a job making my woodenware as possible so it last the test of time. I don't want it retireing before I do.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

>When they saw they didn't make any money, they decided they needed to buy a bigger truck. <

You've got it all wrong. Everybody knows they were buying hay in the Dakotas and hauling it to Wisconsin.


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## John Russell (Aug 8, 2003)

It's funny, because the money comes eventualy.
Not a lot, mind you but I agree with the general concensus that after 35-40 colonys, the red ink dries up. 
If I sat down to do the math, everything I've spent, and all the time invested, I'd most likely have a stroke. 
But in all honesty this isnt the buisness to do that in. The chief atractor is not the cash, or even the potential. It's to do somthing you love, that pays for itself, a way of life, and perhaps a drop or two extra. 

If money was that important to me, I'd go to law school.

J.Russell


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## Terri (Apr 14, 2003)

Stingray, you and I BOTH want to get into business, and we both have the same 2 problems: Not enough money and a limited amount of time. 

You must put classes at the head of your priorities list, and I have Multiple Sclerosis. Right now, I can only stand for 30 minutes without a rest so my time outside is DEFINATELY limited!









As for the lack of money: out here, you can have your hives extracted for $5 to $10 a box. That works out to 5-10 cents a pound or so. I haven't done this yet (My hives are 1 year old this spring). But, this June I intend to attend a bee keepers meeting and ASK! Surely SOMEONE out there will either extract for me or tell me who does?

As an alternative I COULD crush the combs, filter the honey, and just bottle it, but that would mean loosing all that LOVELY drawn comb. But, it COULD be done! 

So much for honey handling equipment. All done, for now.

This year, if at all possible, I will have it extracted for me. So I won't need honey equipment yet.

As for bees. I ordered a couple of packages and I really need more wooden ware to put them in. ONE box, a bottom, frames with foundation, and a lid are bare minimum. That gives me a couple of months to get a proper set up. I also intend to split my 3 established hives, so that means I need the woodenware for 5 complete hives. 

I can do that. It might take a little bit, but I still have a few months. I

n a pinch, if I was stronger, I would go to a constuction site after the workmen went home and take a couple of boards out of the dumpster. A screwed-together box won't last as long as a dove-tailed one, but it will work for now. Later, of course, I will have an income from honey to start replacing anything that is falling apart. A screwed-togeterh box works great short term: I have 2. They are shallows, and I don't like dealing with 2 sizes of frames, but they work just fine. I don't like them but the bees do.  

Also, there is an on-line "stuff" exchange called freecycle. You don't pay for the freecycle goods, you just haul them away. You can get on-line and request bee stuff, and you might get bee things for free.

Or, you can put up posts on a feed store bulletin board that you would like to buy bee things. You might get a bite: you might not.

As for expanding beyond the hobby stage: I have 3 hives wich might produce 190 pounds of honey (Kansas is not a great honey state). A net of $2 a pound will get me $360. I will buy a couple of more packages. (Winter loss in my area runs about 10%, and a few more packages helps build the number of hives anyways). I will split my 3 established hives.

Next year I will have 8 established hives which should produce (with good weather) about 500 pounds of honey. The net should be about $1000. I will buy a couple of more packages. 

The year after that, I intend to have 20 hives at my bee yard. 20 hives at one spot is as much as one spot here can support, and 20 might be too much. However, 20 hives times 65 pounds honey per hive (average for Kansas) = 1,300 pounds = $2,600 net. That will get me started for equipment. *IF* I decide I have enough hives, I can take off nucs for $60 each X 20 hives = $1200 gross or probably $1000 net. 

At this stage I might look into a business loan. A honey house would be wonderfull, and the lack of one will by now be putting me in a bind. The honey will have provided enough for a downpayment. I might help pay for it by extracting for others. A second bee yard would be worth considering, and by now I should already have a lift in the back of the pickup.

At this stage I should have sold enough honey to know the ins and outs of selling honey and perhaps be able to do a better job marketing. Perhaps on the net. 

I intend to limp along with just the bare necessities for as long as I can to avoid getting over extended. At worst, I should be able to net $100 per hive as a hobby, starting next year. At best, I would grow enough to get in my own equipment, and have enough hives to justify having it. 

In Farm Management and Business management courses, there are 5 steps to making a decision.

1. Define the problem. You and your Dad wish to make a profit on bees.
2. brainstorm potential solutions, write them down even if they sound silly. (Build up and let the bees pay for some of the expenses as they produse, mortgage and build now, advertize for an older man who might want your Fathers relative strength and form a 3 way partnership, build more, scrounge more and make it do, make your focus on nucs instead of honey as less equipment is needed, buy used, etc etc)
3. Choose the best-sounding solution (You have decided to buy used stuff) 
4. implement. (You contacted one man)
5. evaluate(It didn't work)

Fine. Now, as was taught in the business classes, you either make a second try at implementing (Run an ad, try freecycle, check out bee magazines or bee supply store bulletin boards, post a notice on every buletin board you can find but especially feed stores and farm stores), or, you can go back to step 2, choose another potential solution, and try to make THAT one work!

As for myself, I was building boxes from boards (I had given up on used stuff) when I heard of used bee stuff. It turned out to be boxes and frames with no outer covers and only 3 bases, but there were a LOT! of boxes. Filled half the garage. I paid the asking price of $100. 

As for my disability, I was only diagnoed 6 months ago and there is a lot they haven't tried yet. I am going ahead with things, and hope for the best. If push comes to shove I will make lots of nucs instead of stressing honey production. A person can do a lot on a scooter, but even with a small lift it would be a stretch to handle 1000 pounds of honey. And, to hire MUCH help would take half the fun out of it!  *I* want to do it!

Be flexible. Flexibility is a virtue in a business man. 

And, before you spend a dime, ask yourself if the business MUST have it? How many hours will it save you, and are those hours NEEDED for a business advancing job?

If you want it, go for it. IF you lack the energy to start a business during school, then perhaps your Father should be the main mover and shaker.

THERE IS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO SKIN A CAT. THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT SOULUTIONS TO EVERY PROBLEM. IF THIS IS IMPORTANT TO YOU, YOU WILL FIND A WAY.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

While planning is important, it IS possible to overthink a problem.

BubbaBob


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## manbee (Sep 22, 2003)

Bubbabob, i am a fifty something hippi and have been attending AA for 26 years and still chasing that dream ..........What fun it is.......


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

manbee, you are smarter than me...I had be drunk for 33 years...till I was 49...to get sick and tired of being sick and tired. It sure is great living rather than existing.

BubbaBob


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Another sober bee boy here........ Got sober in 1985 at the age of 30. Been looking forward ever since.....


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

Terri- thanks so much for the words of advice. On a positive note for you, I'm almost positive that bee-sting therapy has been used successfully to take back some ground with MS. It is really refreshing to see someone lay it out like that. Oh, and you got a GREAT deal on those boxes assuming they're not just falling apart.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

Not only does bee sting therapy show promise with MS, it's benefit is something not currently available from pharmica products...regression of symptoms rather than simply arresting the problem. It also shows promise in nerve regeneration in situations like diabetic neuropathy. That tickles the heck out of me since I have moderate to severe neuropathy problems and all modern medicine can do at this point is slow or stop nerve cell death, rather than nerve regeneration.

BubbaBob


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

I wasn't sure whether it was actually making MS better or just slowing it down. Thanks for clarifying. I have an aunt with MS, and maybe I should mention this to her. Does anyone have a link to a well-thought-out report on bee stings and MS?


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## Terri (Apr 14, 2003)

well, i have BEEN stung, and it didn't help. I hesitate to get stung too often because I am concerned that I might develope an allergy to honey bee stungs. 

I have also heard the reports, perhaps it works better on some people than on others.

MS is an auto immune disease, and diabetes might have an autoimmune componant. I have both. Allergies are ALSO an autoimmune problem, and I get allergy shots to prevent asthma in the spring. 

Tysabri is the hottest new MS drug, but I tried it and I am allergic to THAT, too!  I got hives. The neurologist is pretty sure I CAN take it if it is given after steroids and antihystamined, but he wants somebody else to be the guinea pig. He would be willing to try in a year or so, after someone else had done it.

On the GREAT side, they have found that some statins (commonly given for high cholesterol) have shown a 44% reduction in the lesions from MS, after only 3 months. They are running tests on human subjects right now. 

I am currently on an anticholesterol med, (not a statin) so on Monday I will call my Doctor about switching to one of the statins. They have also changed my MS meds to something hopefully more effective.


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

I think the sting therapy is area-specific. Getting stung in the hand doesn't help back pain, etc. Maybe that's why you didn't notice any relief.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

Sting therapy is also cumulative, and both frequency of stings and time allowed for the venom sac to inject poison are components in effectiveness.

east, also it does show promise, both for MS and diabetic (or other caused) neuropathy, in improving the situation rather than just slowing or stopping symptom progression.

Terri, it is not an ALWAYS thing, and I'd seek a doctor's advise first if I were in your situation, but reactions to bee stings, unlike many allergic reactions, are often, perhaps usually, regressive, that is degree of allergic sensitivity goes down rather than up. As a teen I was extremely allergic to bee stings, but now a sting never results in more than very localized reddening (perhaps an inch diameter circle) that is gone in 10-15 minutes. This is with my removing the stinger immediately...I'm not sure exactly what would happen if I let it sit there and pump away till empty, but I'm probably going to start finding out in the next week or two. I have arthritis in both knees and am going to try sting therapy for it and see what happens.

Later...right now it's back to the bee yard.

BubbaBob


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

From the study that I read (someone here had the link), after 2 seconds or so you've gotten almost all of the poison anyway. Doesn't hurt to let it pump a bit longer though. The danger is that the barb works it's way deeper as it goes.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

I use venom theorpy for my back injury. It works great on the muscle spasms. I hope it helps the nerves rebuild.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

Hillbilly, I raise mushrooms too and there is a particular mushroom that shows promise at stimulating nerve regeneration as well. I don't raise the particular type of mushroom and don't remember the name, but I'll look it up in the next couple of days and let you know what it is.

BubbaBob


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## DocOz (Sep 19, 2004)

Well, east_stingray, I will finish my Rheumatology Fellowship in May. My dad kept a few bees when I was a kid (1980s), and I alway wanted to try it myself. After I finished medicial school and finally having a modist income I bought 2 hives (new) and package bees. Since then I'm up to 22 hives. Two of those hives are my dad's. Last summer he entered his honey in the Arkansas State Fair and won "Best in Show." His side-line job is as a cattle farmer. Now, he is more famous as a beekeeper. I think he enjoys having people ask him about the bees. 

I've looked at beekeeping as a profit but there are too many variables for me. If you plan to become a specialist you could indirectly make beekeeping profitable. You send a couple jars of honey (spring/fall) and maybe a candle to all the physicians in your area as Christmas gifts. They remember you as the "bee guy." You will make much more money from having them know your name than beekeeping would ever bring you. 

By the way, as a specialist in immune system diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, I wonder if lack of exposure to the environment (such as lack of bee stings) may play a role in the initiation of immune mediated processes. Rheumatoid arthritis did not exists prior to about 250 years ago. This is proven by the lack of erosive changes in skeletons from folks who died prior to then. Now it's in all races and continents. There are no infectious etiologies linked to it. The underlying problem is in the immune system attacking the joints. Maybe we just need to "exercise" our immune systems by being exposed to certain things in the environment to keep it from turning on us. Remember, idle hands are the devil's workshop.

As for bee venom therapy, if you are not allergic and it makes you happy go ahead and do it. That's all I have to say about that.


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