# OAV with a fogger



## AthensM50 (Jun 7, 2015)

opcorn:


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## Barhopper (Mar 5, 2015)

OA or mineral oil?


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## johnwratcliff (Feb 24, 2015)

OA. You mix it with alcohol. Seem interesting and much faster but I've never done it


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

I mentioned on one thread that OA fogging with glycerine sounded like a promising path to investigate and was accused of being somehow vague or unscientific or something undesirable in other ways. I still think it sounds worth pursuing, but I don't have the necessary combination of resources and inclination. It seems that what you'd want is for a carrier with OA to be atomized very finely and have the droplets stick to the bees without plugging their trachea or making them too soggy to fly. I guess I should sit back and watch. Let me go make another batch of popcorn.

Michael


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## Black and Amber (Jun 2, 2003)

http://apis-donau.com/blog/2016/11/07/treatment-against-varroa/
I havent used it, it looks easy enough.It would be interesting to try it on a heavily infested colony


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## johnwratcliff (Feb 24, 2015)

I wonder if Randy Oliver has played with this method. It is so much faster


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

johnwratcliff said:


> I wonder if Randy Oliver has played with this method. It is so much faster


Not trying to sound like a commercial, but I can do a hive in 30 seconds with my new Provap 110.


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## johnwratcliff (Feb 24, 2015)

Yep it's fast but the fogger approach is just as fast and $70. I may buy one this summer and just test


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Thermal foggers reach a real high temperature. If the stuff you are fogging can not withstand high temperatures it is decomposed. Oxalic acid in glycerin starts to break down at a temp of 100 deg C according to all sorts of available literature and a bit higher than that and decomposition is really fast. Foggers are way hotter than this. Glycerin has a boiling point of 290 deg C so you are going to have to get at least that hot. The net result of fogging a glycerin solution of oxalic acid would be zero oxalic acid getting in the hive. Draw your own conclusions.

You might also want to think about all the really smart people that have been fighting varroa mites for years and using oxalic acid to do this for years. Yet there are zero reports of anyone using foggers to apply it and actually killing mites this way. Do you think those people have not thought of that idea long ago? After all, someone asks this question on this forum every couple of months. So, it is far from a new idea.

There is also the problem that such an application is illegal in the US.

If you still want to try it go ahead. But please report your before and after mite counts by some meaningful measurement like an alcohol wash. Do not waste everyone's time with sticky paper counts that tell us nothing. Also fog both with and without oxalic acid in the glycerin so we can see if any drop in counts is simply bees grooming off glycerin.


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## johnwratcliff (Feb 24, 2015)

I will do some counts before it will be this summer before I do it


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

Isn't formic acid one of the by-products of oxalic acid being heated up too much? 

Aren't there some really big problems (like killing the whole hive) when people treat with expired MAQS, causing a flash treatment of formic instead of time-release?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Yep..... and you can imaging what hot asid is goiing to do the foggers internals 

Its less then a gram of OA per CC at randys 1-1 mix , but lets call it 1 gram

1cc yields about 70CF of thick fog at 1m vis, normal fog in open air would be 3x more CF. 
A double deep is > 3CF so even if breakdown didn't happen the hive would be getting like 0.042g of OA per double deep


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## allan (Jul 7, 2013)

would mineral oil do better in the fogger than alcohol ?


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

allan said:


> would mineral oil do better in the fogger than alcohol ?


I would expect a hive to die slower if fogged with mineral oil and oxalic than if it was fogged with glycerin and oxalic. With mineral oil it could take a year or more depending on what else you did wrong.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

This is not a "dig" at anyone, but a serious question. I've not yet seen results reported from OA/glycerin fog, but only porous pad applications. Would one have found replies containing this kind of phrasing, "depending on what else you did wrong," a decade ago if one had asked about piping sublimated oxalic acid vapors into a live colony?

Michael


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I have fogged some nuc hives with the remainder of the OA/glycerin that I used with kraft paper on 6 hives last fall, mixed to the Argentinian formulae. Results: I am not yet dead and neither are the nucs and those six hives are booming. I normally search for and mark queens in early march, I am doing it now and I have 4 medium boxes crammed full of bees and have to struggle to locate queens. I have never had this many bees so early.
Johno


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

DerTiefster said:


> a decade ago if one had asked about piping sublimated oxalic acid vapors into a live colony?l


 No one would have batted an eye, at that point there were plenty of published studies, commercial vaporizers go back 15+ years here is a manual dated 2002 http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/oxalicthorne.html

OAV is not new, its just becoming invogue state side

but you other point stands, "on paper" is great, but no one will know for sure till it's done in a controlled experiment and replicated. 
The problem is when people do an uncontrolled one, it leads to snake oil cures that persist on the net. 
johno is out there and trying, and I respect that, please keep us posted 
but without data, pre/post mite counts, controls, large sample size ect its subjective at best 
What someone with a better chemistry back ground then me should do is run the numbers, assuming full reaction, and calculate the formic output and compare it to the dose size for a flash treatment 

Richard, what in the mineral would cause the death of the hive, Not challenging the statement, wanting to understand the mechanism of action given its history as a mite treatment

allan- mineral oil will not dissolve OA, its the wrong type of solvent...ie polar vs nonpolar. in a nutshell if it will not mix with water, it will not dissolve OA


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## allan (Jul 7, 2013)

could the oa be emulsified with the mineral oil ?


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

Just a follow-up note: when I think of "fogging" I think of mechanical means to atomize a liquid material for its own interest or the interest in something dissolved or suspended in it. A heat-induced vaporization is not what I think of, although if it makes a hard-to-see-through suspension in room temperature air as does steam from a kettle in an already humid room, that does indeed qualify as "fog." My personal introduction to the term "fogging" was in my youth from aerosol pesticides, and that is the concept I was attempting to ask about: an aerosol of glycerin/OA, depositing on all exposed surfaces the same material being applied to "paper towels" or other porous pad. No heat-induced decomposition would be involved in that, although the term could be used for thermally driven foggers which might cause decomposition.

Michael


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

msl said:


> Richard, what in the mineral would cause the death of the hive, Not challenging the statement, wanting to understand the mechanism of action given its history as a mite treatment
> 
> allan- mineral oil will not dissolve OA, its the wrong type of solvent...ie polar vs nonpolar. in a nutshell if it will not mix with water, it will not dissolve OA


 Fogging a mineral oil suspension of oxalic is going to result in no oxalic getting in the hive. At the temps foggers run at you are even too hot to turn the oxalic acid into formic acid. You will make things like carbon monoxide which is probably too low a concentration to do any permanent damage. The fogged mineral oil is well proven to not kill mites in any meaningful number so you have accomplished nothing about killing mites and the mites will probably kill the hive in a year or so if you do not take effective steps to kill them. I suppose there is some faint chance you might be able to fog a water solution of oxalic acid and be effective. Water has such a high heat of vaporization and low boiling point you just might keep the temps low enough to allow the oxalic acid to survive or get converted to formic acid. But, people have been asking about fogging oxalic acid for years now and no one reports any good results supported by mite counts so I have my doubts if it is an effective application method.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

respectfully, formic is caused by a glycerin/oa mix I haven't seen anything saying a FGMO/OA mix will create it, and certainly not water/oa mix, if it did, given the OA we use is a dihydrate to start with and already has water in it you would get formic from the current vaporizers 

I now under your point was the hive would die from mites (as would be expected if FGMO was the only treatment), I had read it as the FGMO would slowly kill the hive thanks for the clarification

I don't see OA fogging ever becoming an effective treatment, too many things against it


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## allan (Jul 7, 2013)

ok thanks


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

msl said:


> respectfully, formic is caused by a glycerin/oa mix I haven't seen anything saying a FGMO/OA mix will create it, and certainly not water/oa mix, if it did, given the OA we use is a dihydrate to start with and already has water in it you would get formic from the current vaporizers
> 
> I now under your point was the hive would die from mites (as would be expected if FGMO was the only treatment), I had read it as the FGMO would slowly kill the hive thanks for the clarification
> 
> I don't see OA fogging ever becoming an effective treatment, too many things against it


What you get from heating oxalic acid depends on several things. If it is just oxalic acid dihydrate and you heat it a bit too hot above the sublimation temperature the oxalic can decarboxylate and give you some formic acid. A bit hotter and you get carbon monoxide. So, the temp window to get formic is pretty narrow. It is also mediated by the metal ions present as many metal ions catalyze these thermal degradation reactions.

The situation in glycerin is entirely different and has little relation to what happens to straight oxalic acid. In glycerin you first make the ester glycerin monooxalate. This stuff decarboxylates quantitatively starting at just about 100 deg C. You now have the ester glycerin monoformate. If there is enough water present, and in general there will be from both the dihydrate and from the one water made when you esterified, the glycerin monoformate will hydrolyze at temps above about 120 deg C and be driven off as fast as it forms. This is an ancient way to make small amounts of formic acid in the lab.

Formic acid is unstable starting at temps around 300 deg C. This instability is highly mediated by a variety of catalysts such as acids or metals. Depending on conditions you can make carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, water and hydrogen. You are going to hit those kinds of temps in a fogger using glycerin solutions and you are going to have free metal ions on the surfaces in the fogger.

So, it would be surprising if you got any significant oxalic acid or formic acid in the output of the fogger if the oxalic carrier was either glycerin or mineral oil simply due to the high temps. On the other hand a water solution might keep things cool enough to allow oxalic acid to survive, particularly if you used a fairly dilute solution and a pretty high feed rate. Say 5% oxalic acid or less and a feed rate fast enough to hold the exit gas temp below 150 deg C or maybe a bit less. I am not so sure I am wild about pumping exit gas that hot into my hives. Sounds like a good way to cook some bees.

Like I said, I have been hearing back yard inventors talk about this kind of treatment for years now, but none seem to report good results. So, perhaps it is not such a great idea?


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

I should add I would not use a fogger for this without wearing a Scott Air Pack for safety. I do not think a normal respirator is enough protection with all the volume coming from a fogger.. And, as a chemist I am hardly chemophobic. I have worked with things so toxic they make cyanide pretty safe.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

very inlightinging. I was able to find and under stand the glyerin/oa reaction and formic break down, but noting good for OA thermal decomp, thank you for taking the time to write it (at my level)


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

johnwratcliff said:


> Yep it's fast but the fogger approach is just as fast and $70. I may buy one this summer and just test


Did you get a fogger and do any testing yet? What have been your results? Thanks.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

Respectfully, I see many things said and opinions floated about as fact. Richard's information is well-presented and likely to be correct. Sometimes other statements (not pointing any fingers here, please realize that) are founded on misunderstandings of what happens. Richard's pointing out that decomposition products of OA depend upon what else is present is a good example of how some things depend upon others in ways often overlooked.

Now, back to oxalic acid distribution in a bee colony.... Making OA vapor by heating it results in a fine powder being formed as the vapor condenses in the cooler atmosphere. Sort of like water vapor coming from a tea kettle condenses into the cloud of very fine droplets we see as white "steam". "Flowers of sulfur" is made by condensing sulfur vapor, and can be deposited as very fine powder. Soot, while made via a chemical reaction rather than simple condensation from vapor, is another example of a finely divided powder precipitated from gaseous material. Apart from two or three people actually looking into the process, no one here considers distribution of OA via an atomizing spray from either glycerine or ethyl alcohol. Every time the word "fogger" is mentioned, those who post here immediately default to a "vaporized via heat" kind of process, whereupon thinking that they actually have an adequate understanding of thermal decomposition, they say, "That won't work." That seems to me to lack the level of suspicion of one's own understanding that is appropriate for R&D.

Aristotle figured out while sitting in his easy chair that light things fall slower than heavy things. It took a long time before an adequate number of cynics actually tried the experiment and understood what was happening. After that, the character of the internet postings changed to "Well, we always knew that."

Carry on.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Richard Cryberg said:


> Fogging a mineral oil suspension of oxalic is going to result in no oxalic getting in the hive. I have my doubts if it is an effective application method.


You have doubts but have not gives any more facts, figures, or information that it does not work than I have seen from anyone who has stated that fogging oxalic does work. Like you I have not tried this method of treatment as I am still researching and see what others have learned. If you have not tried this method how do you know it does not work?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

He has doubts, he also has a PHD in chemistry :shhhh: 

what outher have learned is it dosn't work, its an OLD idea that keeps coming up, if it worked every one would be doing it by now 12+ years of posts on the subject here on BS.... the threads die, no quantifed results are ever given or repulacated 

however 
in runing the math on OAE it may be able to dliver a therapeutic dose, IF the OA never vaporizes, just drops out of soulstion and blown in to the hive 
at 100ml to 25g you would need about 6 pumps of the trigger(1.5ml each) to dliver 2 g of OA to a dubble deep giving you ruffly 4.5 L of 100% Eth vapor spread out over the 20l or so of bee space in dubble deep 

this MIGHT work if the eth boling off at such a low temp the OA never gets a chance to over heat and the low expansion of Eth vapors compared to the volume water/fgmo/glycerol puts out(a point I had missed previously). It might protect the OA from over heating and lowers the amount of vapors to a level it can fit in the hive with a proper dose, more so with a temputre regulated setup. 
the test is simple, shoot a cardboard box a few times with a break for thing to cool down and such, let full air out/ dry condensate eth, the extra weight is the amount of OA delivered. IIRR some study I cant find ATM did just that and found with wand type vaporizers up to 1/2 the OA decomposed 


the next question is why are people using good booze as the carrier... one would think using denatured (methyl added) or strait methyl wuld be much cheaper


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I think I would rather use the good booze than have isopropyl alcohol, acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, methyl isobutyl ketone, or denatonium which can be in denatured alcohol in my hives.With alcohol boiling point being at 173 degrees you have a good point that it might protect the OA from over heating.I quit the booze years ago so it will all go to this instead of drinking it all up instead of going to the hives.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

my point was we are putting poison in the hive, we should not judge the carrier based on how it effects humans, especially as most of what you listed will evaporate with out residue
we need to look at costs and the efects on the bees and how it dlivers the OA


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I know the stuff listed will evaporate without residue but vapors can be harmful even to bees.How much of hose chemicals will the bees take in before its all gone from the hives? I would rather use the ethanol than risk using the other chemicals.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

It's quite tempting to actually do some actual science using a fogger, oa, and some alcohol but when considering that the raw data and analysis will be presented to a world-wide group of beekeepers who "know a PhD chemist" or "stayed in a Super 8 Motel" that will criticize and challenge the scientific-ness of the data-gathering procedure...


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Snapper is there any study to say Ethanol vapors are safer for the bees they Methanol vapors ?
you can't judge the bees compared to us, Eth could be worse for them... kinda like chocolate kills dogs

aunt betty the issue is no one IS doing a study on it


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

I offered to study it right after go-fund-me deposits the first check in my account. 
Nobody is going to do the work for free or at least nobody has stepped up in the past 12 years. 

I got a gallon of honey that I could donate to the cause.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

And there is the rub with OA research there is no profit in the outcome so there is no funding as people will just go buy wood bleach.
same reason it took soooo long to disprove FGMO.... no reason to study it as there is no $$


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

msl said:


> Snapper is there any study to say Ethanol vapors are safer for the bees they Methanol vapors ?
> you can't judge the bees compared to us, Eth could be worse for them... kinda like chocolate kills dogs
> 
> aunt betty the issue is no one IS doing a study on it


It sure could but still not using those other vapors would eliminate the whole issue with this if the bees cant handle the ethanol 
to start with!!


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Wow I wonder if bees can handle that toxic OA vapor.
Johno


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

When a beekeeper tries something new in the treatment of mites he can not do any worse than to kill the colony that he is experimenting on. Why should that be a problem, beekeepers are very good at killing bees that is generally how we learn. Granted some learn quicker than others, and sometimes bees defy all odds and survive but that is all filed under the learning curve. Sometimes bees just go out and kill themselves with robbing frenzies that start for unknown reasons and wipe out strong colonies and once started there does not seem to be much one can do to save the targeted colony. I have just run a trial on 9 colonies 3 with OA/glycerin soaked card board, 3 fogging with OA/glycerin and 3 treated with OAV so after the 4 treatments I could do mite checks in a few days time. Problems now arise as 1 of the oav hives has been completely robbed out and this morning they have started on the second OAV hive so I will try to see what can be salvaged early tomorrow morning. I would like to do mite checks on the OA/glycerin fogged hives in a few days time but this robbing is a real pain at this time of the year. I will let you guys know how that goes.
Johno


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

The from that data set its conclusive that OA and glycerin stops robbing:lookout:
good luck on your results


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Who knows, maybe some good can come of this.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Have tried the fogger with OA and alcohol. Did it once this spring for 3 weeks because I was in a hurry and had a lot of hives. 
It got me thru the summer well and now it's time to decide what to do again. Just ordered 35 MAQ treatments for using next week.
The weather is perfect and is telling me what method to use plus I'm seeing crawlers with DWV and signs of paralysis. 

Last year it was way too hot at the right time of year so I was either using OAV or nothing.
Probably hit em again with OAV using the VarroX in late-November because I'll have time then to piddle and go slow.
Lost a lot of bees last winter and hoping to change that around this year. 

The weather determines what treatment path I take and figured it might be that way for others too. 
Right now is perfect here for using MAQ's. Wish I'd ordered sooner.

One thing I really like about the OAV using a fogger is you can treat nucs and top bars easily.
You can give any size colony a shot which makes it easy.
Maybe I'll do some mite counts and put in sticky boards on a couple hives next spring and try and convince myself and the gang that it either works or don't. I'm curious and have the time.

It'd probably satisfy the most people if there were 6 hives with equal mite counts. Two treated with OAV with the VarroX, Two with fogger alcohol/OA mixture, and two not treated at all. Then compare the data from the sticky boards. Think that'd prove anything?


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

I already reported I tried OA fogged in water. Ten nucs treated and ten nuc controls untreated all in the same yard. Treated once a week for eight weeks. I did alcohol washes on all 20 at the end of the treatment. I saw zero mite control. The highest mite count I got was on a treated hive at 4%. Mean mite count for treated nucs the same as untreated. All started with mite counts of 1% or less mid May. All were 1% or higher at the end. Experiment started early June. I also did tests to prove the OA survived the fogger getting about a 70% recovery. I spent hours fooling with the fogger learning how to deliver a consistent dose every trigger pull which is not as simple as it sounds. Waited 20 seconds between trigger pulls to make sure the fogger was back up to temp. Conclusion: Tedious, slow, ineffective. A pan vaporizer would have been faster and would have killed mites. Anyone want to buy a slightly used fogger real cheap? Works good, but slightly modified so I could get consistent volume delivery. You could use it to squash SHB. Or try using ethanol instead of water. Bet you could turn it into a flame thrower if you charged with kerosene and put an igniter next to the nozzle. Potato cannons are more fun.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Richard Cryberg said:


> I Anyone want to buy a slightly used fogger real cheap?


I do. What is your asking price plus shipping? Thanks.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Richard Cryberg said:


> I already reported I tried OA fogged in water. Ten nucs treated and ten nuc controls untreated all in the same yard. Treated once a week for eight weeks. I did alcohol washes on all 20 at the end of the treatment. I saw zero mite control. The highest mite count I got was on a treated hive at 4%. Mean mite count for treated nucs the same as untreated. All started with mite counts of 1% or less mid May. All were 1% or higher at the end. Experiment started early June. I also did tests to prove the OA survived the fogger getting about a 70% recovery. I spent hours fooling with the fogger learning how to deliver a consistent dose every trigger pull which is not as simple as it sounds. Waited 20 seconds between trigger pulls to make sure the fogger was back up to temp. Conclusion: Tedious, slow, ineffective. A pan vaporizer would have been faster and would have killed mites. Anyone want to buy a slightly used fogger real cheap? Works good, but slightly modified so I could get consistent volume delivery. You could use it to squash SHB. Or try using ethanol instead of water. Bet you could turn it into a flame thrower if you charged with kerosene and put an igniter next to the nozzle. Potato cannons are more fun.


So you get 70% recovery of OA but not killing any mites? Something just doesnt sound right about that since OA does kill them.With water its condensing in the hive and basically the same as OA dribble and that kills mites.I hope msl is right about the denatured alcohol because a 5th of Everclear is expensive.I checked the price this afternoon and found it $20 here.Man I didnt know it was that expensive.The last half pint I bought wasnt but $2 something.I see I have saved a lot of money after quitting!!!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Thank you for the recovery numbers, what was your grams to 100ml water on the mix?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

If I remember correctly OA dribble was tried using just water and OA and was found to be unsuccessful and only worked when sugar was added to the mix.
Johno


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

johno said:


> If I remember correctly OA dribble was tried using just water and OA and was found to be unsuccessful and only worked when sugar was added to the mix.
> Johno


It has to be organic sugar because you only mix organic chemicals with other organic chemicals.  
Go green


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I never dribbled and didnt remember the sugar added.But still getting a 70% residue when the water evaporated there should of been some mite die off.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Snapper the issue the amount of OA per L of fog, most mixes and carryers are to thin. Sure some mite die off, but you need a meaningful mite kill. 
Ie a full dubble deep has about 20L of bee space and a bunch of bees in that space call it 2/3s bees for examples sake leaving us 6.6L to cram 2 grams worth of OA fog in to, any more gets blow out the hive

In winding back in the thread DRRC gave a 5% example, 10cc of water gives you .5 grams of OA in 16 L of fog 
the OAE at 25% 10cc gives you 2.6 grams of OA in 5 L of fog

Looking at the above you can see why I have been arguing against foggers, but that OAE fog might be worth looking at but even the OAE isn't great, you want very little fog with a high amount of OA crystals to disperse threw out the hive 

Once you get a fogger to be delivering a therapeutic dose to the hive, the next question is crystal size, heat vaporization/sublimation likely gives finer crystals and that may indeed have an effect


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

snapper1d said:


> I never dribbled and didnt remember the sugar added.But still getting a 70% residue when the water evaporated there should of been some mite die off.


Agree there has to be mites getting killed. Still just waiting for someone who has done pre and post mite counts after using a fogger with OA. Lots of folks have stated they are using this method but no numbers and about as many claiming using a fogger does not kill mite but have yet to see figures to back up either sides claims. If fogging works, even 50% as well as OAV would the decrease in time and effort make it worthwhile? Be happy to make up my own mind once I see the results or lack thereof.

Still getting lots of "spewing" but neither side has offered any real results/numbers of when, how and where they have used a fogger and what it did or did not do. Post #44 is closest but need more than one person who has tried this method. Even more so when the person has already, before testing the operation, stated it would not work.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Groundhwg said:


> If fogging works, even 50% as well as OAV would the decrease in time and effort make it worthwhile? .


No a sub 50% knock down of phoric mite is not sufficient. At that point you minds well get a powdered sugar blower as you have droped in to that range.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

msl said:


> Thank you for the recovery numbers, what was your grams to 100ml water on the mix?


Saturation of OA in water at room temp is 10%. I used 10% in distilled water. Tap water has enough calcium in it that you get a precipitate in the solution and given time I feared that precipitate would plug up the works in the fogger. It would also lime up the heating element insides and wreck heat transfer given time.

I think failure was due to two things. In order to deliver a reproducible and full dose each trigger pull you need to pull the trigger fast. A slow pull delivers little or nothing. The net result is a lot of liquid fires out of the end of the fogger and ends up on the hive bottom as a wet spot. Second, it is well proven that a water solution dribbled is not effective and the mist that is produced may be too much like a water dribble to work. Might work if you pulled the trigger 100 times to over come both problems. That means a treatment time of 2000 seconds per hive. Thirty minutes per hive is not practical. Besides, you could easy enough spray a large amount of water with OA over the top of the frames in it in a lot shorter time.

I am sure my negative results will not end people trying to fog. Maybe some other solvent will actually work? But, I have seen enough I am not inclined to waste more time on the experiments. I will say, if you want to try spend a bunch of time playing with the fogger and figure out how to deliver a reproducible shot. You can not do this while treating. I could never have gotten there without drilling a hole in the top of the plastic handle so I could push the trigger down to full starting position with a screw driver after every single shot. My trigger simply would not go the full range with just the factory included spring return. Likely because water is a miserable lubricant. The trigger pull is already hard enough I did not want to put an added spring in the housing.

If you are using alcohol I would suggest only using freshly made solution. Standing at room temp for a few weeks is going to allow the OA to react with the alcohol making ester which is not going to kill mites. It will decarboxylate in the hot fogger to make ethyl formate and carbon dioxide.

If you want cheap alcohol just extract the alcohol from gasoline with water, back wash the water extract once with ether and distill the alcohol off the water. Diesel starter fluid is decently pure ether with only a tad of oil added as a lube. Or buy undiluted moon shine. Burn the extracted gas in your lawn mower. It will appreciate the lack of ethanol in the fuel.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

So far the entire " OA thru fogger with alcohol" "does it work or not?" argument is based on "internet credibility". 
Suppose if it was actually effective we'd all be demanding a study along with properly labeled products to purchase. 
If the yard type of fogger don't work than the others probably don't work either for the same reasons.

Now defend the other OA vaporizors.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

If you think you are not getting the full amount of OA in your hive come back in a few minutes after the alcohol has evaporated and do it again.Problem solved!!!! Use your head msl!!!


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Deleted, dupe post.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

msl said:


> No a sub 50% knock down of phoric mite is not sufficient. At that point you minds well get a powdered sugar blower as you have droped in to that range.


Was not picking 50% as some magic number but so far I have not seen any "real" numbers. Also if you got a ______% and with the time and ease using a fogger verses OAV via wand could do more treatments faster and more often. You argue against using a fogger and have offered numbers (post 51) but have you done any mite checks/numbers before treating and then after treating with a fogger? Please post your results as that would help many to make-up their mind once they can see the figures. Thanks.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

snapper1d said:


> If you think you are not getting the full amount of OA in your hive come back in a few minutes after the alcohol has evaporated and do it again.Problem solved!!!! Use your head msl!!!


So if it was 50% effective just do it twice and if 30% three times.


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## cbay (Mar 27, 2017)

Seems that everyone loves the idea of being able to walk on down the line hitting the hives with OA in a timely fashion without much hassle. I do for sure...
Using a heating element and straight OA appears (at proper temp) to be accepted as effective. With dilluting (water, alcohol, etc.) not so much.
Why couldn't a larger version of a pan/element with forced air (hose, wand, etc.) be used? Surely there can be some tinkering with different things out there to get the job done with less hassle than the small tray method that is popular now..... Definitely no mad scientist here but will do some tinkering this winter for sure.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> So if it was 50% effective just do it twice


thats not how the world works
5 treatments a week apart 4000 mites in the hive
1 treatment kills 2000 mites 2000 left
2nd one kills 1000 mite 1000 left
3rd kills 500 mites 500 left
4th kills 250 mites 250 left 
5th kills 125 mites 125 left in the hive
vs a single Oav taking only a few min more and leaveing only 120 mites behind
also keep in mind this is a bloodless example , with brood on your going to be treating every week to 2 the whole season. 50% knock down is about par for powdered sugar dusting



> Why couldn't a larger version of a pan/element with forced air (hose, wand, etc.) be used?


they make one for 6K https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2tGN7H10FM 



> You argue against using a fogger and have offered numbers (post 51) but have you done any mite checks/numbers before treating and then after treating with a fogger?


nope, and after 12+ years of the topic under discussion here on BS no one has yet to post any objective numbers saying it works, people have posted numbers saying it don't. you can see in my 50% example you can end up with a lot of mites on the stikey board and still not be an effective treatment

you miss understand post 51, I have argued against foggers with water/glycerin/fgmo. I posted numbers on Eth as its plasuabul to get a therapeutic dose with it do to the lowere vapor volume and the fact it will disove more OA, I feel pointing the people who want to try it in that direction will give them the best chance for success, given this is the hot new thing on youtube, we likly with have some better reports by spring


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I just came in from checking out a fogger with ethanol and OA.Didnt do any counts as I just wanted to see how it works.I can say one thing for sure is you can get a lot of OA in a hive without it all coming back out.Bees dont fight back at you either.You can fog them and in just a few minutes hit them again if you want but I can see by the marks on the jar I was getting more in the hive than was supposed to be needed the first fogging.I would like to hear Richard the chemist thoughts on isopropyl alcohol and denatured alcohol being used instead of ethanol.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

msl said:


> thats not how the world works
> 5 treatments a week apart 4000 mites in the hive
> 1 treatment kills 2000 mites 2000 left
> 2nd one kills 1000 mite 1000 left
> ...


So using these numbers and getting only 50% of the mites per treatment after just 4 weeks/treatment you would have only 250 mites left. Then if there were ONLY 30,000 bees in your hive that would be just 0.008% mites well below the 0.01% of 4 mites per 300 bees threshold so often spoken about.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I have just done some mite counts on the 2 sets of hives I just treated. The OAV treated hive had a mite count of 10 to a 1/2 cup and after 4 treatments 5 days apart has now a count of 3. The next 3 hives were fogged with an OA/glycerin mixture and the hive started with a count of 3 to a half a cup of bees after 4 treatments 5 days apart ended with a count of 1 mite. the other 2 hives with no pre treatment count interestingly enough I ended up at5 mites per half cup of bees and the third at 12 mites per half cup of bees. I would have been happier if that last hive was below 6 but there it is at 12 mites. the remaining 3 hives with OA/glycerin on the top bars of the boxes will have to wait another 20 days before I do a mite count on them. So you can make of that what you will, however the hives mite counted before and after both went down in counts. By the way my OAV treatments take only 30seconds per hive and that is with an exact dose. Snapper I think there may be a problem dissolving the OA into isopropyl alcohol. If you are going to do some tests do mite counts before and after and look for mite drops on the sticky boards. It would not be good to do a series of treatments and not knowing if the treatments are effective and end up with heavy losses over winter.
Johno


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Well Groundhwg that sound good to me.We have two here that say it doesnt work and on youtube we have I have seen 5 that swear by it.Under their comments are many many many more that are using it and claim it works also.It seems the opinions are heavy handed for the fogger with OA than against it.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

johno said:


> I have just done some mite counts on the 2 sets of hives I just treated. The OAV treated hive had a mite count of 10 to a 1/2 cup and after 4 treatments 5 days apart has now a count of 3. The next 3 hives were fogged with an OA/glycerin mixture and the hive started with a count of 3 to a half a cup of bees after 4 treatments 5 days apart ended with a count of 1 mite. the other 2 hives with no pre treatment count interestingly enough I ended up at5 mites per half cup of bees and the third at 12 mites per half cup of bees. I would have been happier if that last hive was below 6 but there it is at 12 mites. the remaining 3 hives with OA/glycerin on the top bars of the boxes will have to wait another 20 days before I do a mite count on them. So you can make of that what you will, however the hives mite counted before and after both went down in counts. By the way my OAV treatments take only 30seconds per hive and that is with an exact dose. Snapper I think there may be a problem dissolving the OA into isopropyl alcohol. If you are going to do some tests do mite counts before and after and look for mite drops on the sticky boards. It would not be good to do a series of treatments and not knowing if the treatments are effective and end up with heavy losses over winter.
> Johno


Johno I just got this thing and trying to see how it works not if OA and ethanol works.If there is a dissolving problem with isopropyl then denatured may have the same problem as some denatured alcohols contain isopropyl also.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Johno I tried dissolving OA in isopropyl.It will dissolve but it is much slower than in ethanol.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Well Groundhwg that sound good to me


Sounds good, but his numbers are off a few 00s

I am NOT against it, I am against blind faith, hope and wanting it to be true, The same stuff that kept FGMO fogging a live, and still does

GH's argument that a 50% kill would be fine is just that. If you say otherwise you don’t have a firm grasp of the problem. While its adamic as no one seems to have a real number of the efecainty of OAE fog, the fact that they wish to defend a undefendable position show the powers of wishing it to be so on the human condition. 

lets look at a brood on set up, standard 66/33 in brood to phoric and see what happens when we kill 50% of all phoric mites once a week Vs 97% for 5 weeks for simplicity it was mocked up with a day of treatment kill and at 4000 mites to 40k bees meaning you would see 9.9 mites per 300 bee wash 







makes it clear real fast that you would have to treat weekly the whole brood rearing season. Day 30 wash for 50% would be 8.1 mites per 300 bees, for 97% would be 3.6 mites per 300 bee


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The "kills half the mites" weekly analogy is poor.
Fails to keep track of the newborns (hatched?) that happen during the week.
They say a majority of the mites are under caps and are not affected by OAV of any kind.

This means that they're getting hatched faster than you're killing them and there is no decay curve like was described. 
That is the kernel of the argument for or against the OAV thru a fogger method. 

I get it and can't argue with that. Question is "how many mites is it killing?". 
I think the answer is "not enough" but can't prove it one way or the other so I pretend to believe but not that hard. 
Even if it kills all the adult mites above caps I suspect that they recover quickly since the new crop is already planted. 

That's the dynamic as briefly as I can post it. Starting to see why the doubters doubt.
Maybe they're right and maybe they're not. 50/50


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

msl I am not a user of FGMO.I have seen too many say it doesnt work.I dont know of anyone who does say it works.Now fogging with OA and ethanol I see lots of comments from people saying it works.Some say OA and Glycerin works.I only see two of you that say it doesnt.I still have to try it for myself.From all that are trying it and its working for them it looks like you have a steep up hill battle arguing against it.I saw today that you can deliver good amounts of OA using a fogger.Its kind of like going to court and hearing the arguments.Right now it looks like they are all against you.I will try it and see or myself and hope to get the same good results as all those others are claiming to get.Why not let others try it instead of trying to discourage them.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

corect AB thats why i tossed out the brood on model where your only killing 50% or 97% of the 33% that are not in the brood and acounts for the 2.5% per day mite population growth 
ie 4000/3*.5 ,you kill 666 mites with a 50% treatment, but at the 4k pop they are hatching out 100 a day so at the end of the week you have just stopped them form increasing.
meanwhile every time you look at the sticky board after a treatment you see hundreds and hundreds of dead mite so it must be working right?

snapper, go read this weeks posts again, I am saying OAE in a fogger may add up, but like FGMO its becoming a internet sensation(backin the day every one said FGMO worked) with no proof to back it yet every one wants to hop on board... just today a guy here on BS was recommending it after treating 90 hives a day ago, no proof it worked, no mite counts, his hives could be dead from it tomarow....yet for some reason wants to permote it 
when you look at 12+ years of posts about OA in a fogger here on bee source all you see is the same thing... some one has great idea, just shot there hives yesterday is was super easy and great.... then crickets... no one is coming back a year or 2 later staying there hives are still alive and it works great, no one is doing counts, no one has proved anything except its cheap and easy. 
I know people pushing magnets at the hive entrances for varroa contoral and putting copper wire in knot holes to keep the positive engery in..... people WANT to beleave 
I can find studys showing cow piss is more effective then FA or Thymol in mite controal http://www.thebioscan.in/Journals_PDF/9412 RUCHIRA TIWARI_3146.pdf why isn't there one study on foggers

I am not saying don't do it, far from it! I am saying go in with your eyes wide open and with enuff controls that you can measure the results objectively. 
Saying the fogger puts out a "lot" of OA is far different than saying your using .25g/ml and a 3 ml per hive body dose


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

We really need to discuss chickenomics after we get this mite thing licked.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

ml so you are saying OAE in a fogger may add up but in post #51 you say you are arguing against them.I do not deal with FA or Thymol.I have had very good luck with OA and if there is a better way to deliver it I would like to see.Remember when OA came on the scene there were lots getting good results and still many saying "I am not putting that poison in my hive" while they are eating rhubarb and drinking sweet tea!!! It took lots of people to brag on OA before it became legal!!! As the inspector told me once "OA is illegal to use but I cant stay here and watch what you do and what you do I cant do anything about it but take care of your bees the best way you can"


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

msl said:


> Sounds good, but his numbers are off a few 00s Day 30 wash for 50% would be 8.1 mites per 300 bees, for 97% would be 3.6 mites per 300 bee


The numbers used were your numbers from post #61 not mine. Of course those numbers were way off due to not figuring in how many new mites were being born and them laying more eggs. I never stated that killing 50% was good enough all I did was use your amounts and my zeros were in the correct place using your example. Of course you were trying to make a different point.

I use OAV only for my mite treatments and after my fourth late summer treatment completed Aug. 19th and checked yesterday found 1 mites in one hive and the rest were zero from an average of 350 bees per hive so 0.002% from one hive and those zeros are also in the correct place.


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## Barhopper (Mar 5, 2015)

Put a white board in and count how many mites drop then report back.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Of course those numbers were way off due to not figuring in how many new mites were being born and them laying more egg


Nope 
as stated post 61 was broodless example, see post 68 for a brood on model accounting for mite reproduction 


> 1 mites in one hive and the rest were zero from an average of 350 bees per hive so 0.002% from one hive and those zeros are also in the correct place.


not sure what your using for a measuring device for 350 bees, the standard would be 300 in a 1/2 cup so I am unsure as to your sampleing
not sure how your crunching your numbers
1 mite in 350 bees would be 0.286% 
1 mite in 3500 bees would be 0.0286%
1 mite in 35000 bees would be 0.00286%
you are off by 2 zeros and rounding down when you need to be rounding up
I am unsure as to your point on your counts, your rolls show your keeping your hive under control with OAV. If you have your pretreatment starting rolls I could put that in to the program and see what the model kicks out compared to your real world results 



> I did was use your amounts and my zeros were in the correct place using your example





> Then if there were ONLY 30,000 bees in your hive that would be just 0.008% mites well below the 0.01% of 4 mites per 300 bees threshold so often spoken about.


4 mites in 300 bees is 1.33% not 0.01% plug your numbers in here and see for your self http://calculator.tutorvista.com/math/353/ratio-to-percent-calculator.html



> I never stated that killing 50% was good enough


change of heart? 
you said


> If fogging works, even 50% as well as OAV would the decrease in time and effort make it worthwhile?


I said


> _No a sub 50% knock down of phoric mite is not sufficient_


you replyed


> So if it was 50% effective just do it twice and if 30% three times


.
I spent a great length of time answering those 2 questions in detail, I am glad you now seem to agree 50% is not enough knock down 
Its not wrong to change you opion based on new facts, thats how we grow. 
Running the Eth numbers changed me form a nope to a maby 
Snapper changed his tune about using a different carrier when he saw the costs of everclear, till then he couldn't see my reasoning for wanting to look at alternatives


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I havent changed my mine on alternatives.I still dont want acetone,Methyl Ethel Keytone or any of those others in my hives.I still remember when I was a kid how toxic those things were to bugs.Thats my concern with bees.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> I hope msl is right about the denatured alcohol


I was going on this and


> I tried dissolving OA in isopropyl.It will dissolve


sorry if I miss read you, I do not mean to be putting word in your mouth


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I did try to dissolve it but I still not using it in my hives.And I still wish you are right about it not hurting bees but I still dont want those chemicals in my hives.No one has definitely said if oa would or would not dissolve in isopropyl but I tried and it will.If I hadnt of tried it others would still not know.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

msl said:


> Nope
> as stated post 61 was broodless example, see post 68 for a brood on model accounting for mite reproduction
> 
> not sure what your using for a measuring device for 350 bees, the standard would be 300 in a 1/2 cup so I am unsure as to your sampleing
> ...


Please advise what treatment(s) you use, when, how often, and what mite counts you have so I can compare. Thanks.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Not going to be swayed by those who just are putting out numbers and information with out trying the treatment(s)


yet people are swayed by those who try the treatments and offer no numbers
once the pont of all this is being missed and you just want a to keep dancing for the sake of dancing
sence you asked, lets take this walk in the weeds
The 4 hives I rolled this week we 9,2,2,4 per 300 bees
end of July was 9,6,3, NA 
end of June was NA,2,1,NA
end of may was 1,0,NA,NA 
last chemical treatment was a broodless OAD nov 2016 
hive history in order of the counts given
1	OWH pulled queen 5/25 and let them re queen them self
2	OWH Swarmed 5/1
3	OWH (nuc)Flyaway split 4/7
4	Swarm caught 5/4

hive 6 is in an out yard OWH rolled 19 on july 24 and was put on a corse of OAD treatments post harvest I had some other counts on it but have lost them 
OWH= over wintered hive 
123 are/were sister queens mated july 2016 and part of a experiment on how splits effect mites, no suprize the fly away won hands down and over all it trended to the molding well








the other 25 or so hives are nucs that will receive a fall OAD and not tracked till they are in fullsized gear, I am in expansion mode right now 
all stock is swarm capture from with in flight range of my main yard, hive 6 is genital and productive, the others are aggressive, unproductive and swarmey
my gole would be to keep bees with non chemical IPM, but if the counts say a hive needs treated it needs treatment, I go with OAD as its cheap and proven... Trust me I would love to walk threw the nuc yard this fall with a fogger, oad is PITA in KTBH vs langs and over 1/2 of the nucs are topbars.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

You know you can print all that in a message and its no better than others that say OAE Fogging works for them.Not doubting your post but if its not done by a group that has everything documented it all becomes nothing.Just like when I tried dissolving OA in Isopropyl.Its not documented so someone else could argue against it.Its like you said earlier there is no money in it so no group documents it.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I don't dissagree with you, however I am not dumping it on you-tube to make a profit, and while extremely limited, the data set is more then any foggers have put out I am also not saying don't treat your bees and you will be fine because some of mine were. I am saying monter your mites and take action as needed regardless if that is your gentinicks not being up to the task or the treatment you are using is failing you


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Well failing is something am not doing with my bees.I have not lost bees to mites in years.I found a good treatment to eliminate hive beetles so I have very few of them now also.Talk about those I need to go tomorrow and rebait for them.I quit selling honey so I just raise and sell bees now so I keep up with them well.I have not had a winter loss in three years now.


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## beenoob (Jun 16, 2016)

This has been a great read everyone, reviving to see if anyone had more mite count data after fogger OA / alcohol treatments.


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