# how to encourage bees to accept rite-cell foundation?



## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

nothing needed. you can feed to get them drawing it out. otherwise a nectar flow will.


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## Geno (Apr 23, 2015)

A couple things in my opinion. Do not mix plastic with wax foundation in the same hive body. If using plastic only and the bees are not building, feed syrup and add a small amount of Bees wax to the foundation. Good Luck!


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

My bees need little encouragement to cause them to begin to draw comb on the plastic foundation. The usual rules for drawing comb apply, strong colonies of bees of the proper age for wax working, a good flow or heavy feeding, and don't give too many frames of foundation at one time. The best brood comb is drawn in a super directly above brood, or between frames of brood in the brood nest.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

AR Beekeeper said:


> My bees need little encouragement to cause them to begin to draw comb on the plastic foundation. The usual rules for drawing comb apply, strong colonies of bees of the proper age for wax working, a good flow or heavy feeding, and don't give too many frames of foundation at one time. The best brood comb is drawn in a super directly above brood, or between frames of brood in the brood nest.


You won't get better advice than this, but it may take some time to understand the multifaceted conditions triggering bees to draw new comb. Nectar, or thin sugar water (syrup) occupies a large number of cells to cure into honey. So, bees put small amounts in a large number of cells to speed curing, then combine it to fill & cap cells when moisture content is below +/- 18.6%...They draw comb as it is NEEDED to cure honey -and sometimes to start or enlarge a broodnest - not when WE think they should.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

I also paint the plastic with "more" melted wax, & interleave the new frames into the brood nest when I can.
( I also use foundation as "half sheets" as Lauri illustrates, but that is not what you asked about .... )
CE


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Yes when all things are perfect bees will draw just about anything to include plastic.

When they're not so perfect plastic is the first thing they neglect, they can burr and cross comb before they draw plastic if. As stated above don't mix plastic and wax; they will draw the wax extra fat and not touch the plastic every time.

>encourage bees to accept rite-cell foundation

Feed or a nectar flow are necessary for bees to draw anything. A good flow is needed for plastic, where as a very light flow and they can still draw foundationless frames, and wax foundation is in between.

To keep cost down the manufactures never use enough wax. Appling an extra layer of wax with a sponge roller is probably the best thing you can do to plastic. They will draw it almost as good as wax foundation.

Insert new frames in the brood nest. Placing one frame between two frames of brood a few per box. Rotate more frames into the brood nest as they draw them. This is the fastest way to get them to draw any kind of frames. Honey supers are similar, checker board empties between capped honey, you can do a whole box at a time.


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## stavros (Feb 26, 2008)

Thank you for your suggestions.

> Applying an extra layer of wax with a sponge roller is probably the best thing you can do to plastic. 

Would this extra layer not interefere with the pattern of the hexagonal cells (filling them up with wax)? And in case of swarms, would you put a couple of old drawn frames (with wax foundation) and then undrawn frames with rite-cell foundation? Would this work, mixing wax and plastic? Of course, all this discussion concerns next spring and the next nectar flow, not the winter.
Thanks a lot,

Stavros


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I never coat mine with wax.

Manipulating bees to draw out new frames can be a little bit of an art. Lots of ways to encourage them, even before flows/ after flows are over. Simulated swarms and plenty of feed is one of my favorite ways.

I'd almost compare it to learning to rear queens. It's not so much what you put into the colony (Grafts or rite cell frames) as the colonies willingness, because of preparation/manipulation from you, to convince them to do what YOU want. Once you get the hang of it, it becomes quite reliable in the results. Messing around and experimenting is entertaining too. You can get pretty good at the little details before long if you pay attention.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

LOL, I'm addicted to new drawn frames! So clean


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Feeding syrup is not really an option if you have honey supers on or it is honey supers you want drawn out. You can use so called "support colonies" to draw comb but if it is plastic foundation honey supers you want drawn out, and they are all you have for your storage, it seems potentially a bit of a hindrance to a honey crop.

I will be in the position of needing to double my medium supers frame count in the spring while running deeps in the broods. Rolling on some more wax is certainly one of the considerations. I am all ears for the tricks to getting them drawn out.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Mixing wax and plastic is when you have 1 frame of the wax foundation and 1 frame of the plastic
foundation both undrawn. My bees will work on the wax foundation first and make near perfect cells. The
rite cell plastic foundations sometime have the burr comb on the side maybe not enough flow on. In the case of
a swarm you said old drawn frames, not the new wax foundation frames that mix with the rite cell foundation. So yes,
in a swarm the rite cell foundation frames will work as they are looking to build a new home and full of wax building young
bees. Either case, a good flow on artificial or natural nectar will cause them to draw the cells out. Time it well to add the frames in!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

crofter said:


> Rolling on some more wax is certainly one of the considerations. I am all ears for the tricks to getting them drawn out.


i've tried coating plastic foundation with melted cappings wax these past 2 seasons and i believe it made a huge difference in getting the frames accepted and drawn more quickly. i try to put on not so much as to completey fill in the embossing, but enough to where it is easily visible.

i placed supers with the coated foundation a couple of weeks prior to new wax making, and within a day or two the bees get to work on the frames, not drawing new wax yet, but reworking the painted on wax into the start of new comb.

i think what was happening before coating with melted wax is that what little bit of wax that came on the frames was getting stripped off and used elsewhere, leaving the frames pretty much bare plastic, and they did get ignored to a greater degree.

after they have started the new comb by reworking the painted on wax it sure seemed like they went to town with it once the colony transitioned into the wax making mode. i think the trick is just getting them started and it's like they can't resist doing so with the painted on wax.

i used a paintbrush but want to try a roller next year to see if it's any easier. it's a messy pain in the butt job, but in the end i'll say it appears to be worth it. it's ok if some areas get a little thicker coating, those areas just get reworked out a little farther.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

I have never had any problems getting them to draw plastic. I have put plastic foundation next to wax foundation and they draw both at the same rate in my experience.

But, if there is no flow they do not draw anything. To help with no flow situations I do take a couple of hunks of wax and heat them with a hot air gun. As soon as the wax is solid I wipe these on the plastic. This leaves wax right on top of the ridges so with minor remodeling it is the start of a cell wall. I have seen whole supers where the bees have drawn out such wax to make walls a mm or 2 mm tall when there was little flow and end up never putting a drop on honey in those started cells. But, it is a nice start ready for the next honey flow. And doing this it seems to stop them from drawing wonky comb such as cross comb or a second layer comb above the foundation a bee space like they do sometimes with regular wax or plastic foundation.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

One thing I've done that came in handy is to feed larger colonies a bit more syrup than I would normally feed to stimulate fall brood rearing, resulting in new frames being lightly drawn out for use the next spring. I toss on another box late summer with the new frames and remove it once it's been worked-before winter sets in. Seems to work pretty good. That wax is brittle and delicate.

Some might say that's not the best management of the colony, but I've seen no ill effects of having them draw a little wax that late in the season.(August)









This doesn't look like much, but if you look closely, 









you'll see it is enough to draw bees up when needed.









Right before the main flow, this is what I want to see. Plenty of bees willing to move up and occupying the new frames. That light draw works wonders. I don't care it the wax was made from syrup as long as it is filled with nectar later.









And soon after, it starts getting finished









Would a light coating of wax from the beekeeper have this same effect? Maybe, maybe not. It might be a little better then uncoated new foundation, but it is worth the effort? That
is the question I would be asking.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think cold night time temperatures here and late start of flow till mid June, makes it difficult to get much comb drawn. Even wax foundation gets robbed around the edges to draw out center portion of frames. Feeding them thin syrup just seemed to flood the brood cells.


Maybe the Finlanders are going in the right direction with their styrofoam core hive bodies. I think I will leave the insulation and wraps on my colonies a bit longer this coming spring.

I set up two units of 4 framed nucs on a divided deep box and they built up to three deeps high and weighed between 180 and 200 lbs without feeding. Similarly another pair of side by side 5 frame nucs developed to three high and heavy stores without feeding. Maybe the shared warm wall and narrow boxes with nowhere to go but up, focuses them better on comb building.

I saw a video where a fellow was dipping the foundation vertically into a container of boiling water with an inch or so of wax floating on top. Seemed to leave a nice even heavy coating of wax as he drew it out and shook it off. Rolling the wax on is a fair bit of work and does use a surprising lot of wax.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

On a good flow or feeding mine will draw them pretty well without any wax added. But to get them consistently drawn, adding wax helps. 

But now I just buy the heavily waxed stuff from Acorn and call it good. No jacking around adding wax or worrying they'll reject it and strip the wax off.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

jwcarlson said:


> On a good flow or feeding mine will draw them pretty well without any wax added. But to get them consistently drawn, adding wax helps.
> 
> But now I just buy the heavily waxed stuff from Acorn and call it good. No jacking around adding wax or worrying they'll reject it and strip the wax off.


brad bee tried the acorn product this year and was impressed with it.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>Would this extra layer not interefere with the pattern of the hexagonal cells (filling them up with wax)? 

Use a sponge roller and not dripping with wax, don't press too hard, just enough to build up the cell walls and not in the bottom of the cell. It's quickly learned on your first frame. 

>But now I just buy the heavily waxed stuff from Acorn and call it good.

And that's why many are migrating over to Acorn frames. Bees work them better because of the extra wax.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> brad bee tried the acorn product this year and was impressed with it.





FlowerPlanter said:


> And that's why many are migrating over to Acorn frames. Bees work them better because of the extra wax.


SP and FP, I cannot say enough good about the Acorn foundation. Financially, it's a few pennies more per sheet of RiteCell when you're buying it in 500+ sheet quantities. But with the money (wax) and time (with a roller) dedicated to coating RiteCell... it was an absolute no brainer for me. Nick @ Acorn was great to deal with... I'd pinged him for quotes many times and never made the numbers work until I needed a good amount of it. Then it all fell into place.

Not to derail the OP's thread, but if you've got the choice between RC and Acorn and you plan on putting extra wax on or think that you might need to put extra wax on... then you owe it to yourself to try the Acorn stuff, even at a *slightly* higher price. For smaller quantities there are retailers on the web now that sell it. Ohio Bee Box for one and Lappe's (I think). It might be cheaper to buy $100 from them then to but it from Acorn.

If anyone wants more information about it they can feel free to PM me. Have talked to many about it over the last several months after I started a thread about it when I ordered it this spring.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

Here's a recommendation, don't use it at all.

I have nothing against people that use it, many do. The reason I don't is because when we first got into beekeeping, we bought 20 pierco frames, and met a local beekeeping who sells them. He had a spring class, showed his honey supers full of frames with dips and divots in the combs, even a few with sides completely undrawn. ( same happened with the frames we bought) Then he pulled out an old beat up wooden frame with wax foundation, perfectly drawn, packed with brood. 
Why do bees prefer wax over plastic? I don't know, don't say I do, but try the side by side of wax/plastic or foundation-less, that tells a story all its own. 
I find with a small bit of time, and using proper management, foundation-less can be achieved.


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## ShrekVa (Jan 13, 2011)

I've had no issue with getting ritecell drawn since i've been adding a coat of wax. You don't have to be as easy with it as wax, you can go ahead and install in frames for later and not worry about it which is harder to do with wax. I also haven't noticed a problem if you get messy waxing the foundation either, the bees have no problem moving wax and will strip the foundation if they're not inclined to draw comb. I've used waxed ritecell foundation in the same box as wax foundation and foundationless frames with no problem, if the bees are drawing comb I don't think you'll see much difference as long as they're geared up to draw comb.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

beestudent said:


> Why do bees prefer wax over plastic? I don't know, don't say I do, but try the side by side of wax/plastic or foundation-less, that tells a story all its own.


Hard to get anymore side by side that this. 

































View attachment 29118


Sometimes they draw foundation first, sometimes it is the foundationless areas. But usually it is both at the same time, pretty much equally. It can depend on where the frames is placed within the hive and the time of year. 

Age of the queen can also cause the colony to draw wax differently. Overwintered queens bees will draw a lot more drone comb in foundationless areas than a newly mated young queens colony will. If you want good small worker cells in foundationless frames, don't give foundationless frames to colonies with overwintered queens


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)




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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Double post


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

beestudent said:


> Why do bees prefer wax over plastic? I don't know, don't say I do, but try the side by side of wax/plastic or foundation-less, that tells a story all its own.
> I find with a small bit of time, and using proper management, foundation-less can be achieved.


I have done the side by side experiment and see them draw plastic every bit as easy and just as good a comb as with wax. After all some 90% of all commercial bee keepers use plastic foundation in wooden frames. Those guys make their living doing the right things with bees to make sure those bees are maximally productive. I frankly do not see why wax foundation is even manufactured any more it is such a pain to work with compared to plastic. Why use 1800s technology in the 2000s?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Richard Cryberg said:


> I have done the side by side experiment and see them draw plastic every bit as easy and just as good a comb as with wax. After all some 90% of all commercial bee keepers use plastic foundation in wooden frames. Those guys make their living doing the right things with bees to make sure those bees are maximally productive. I frankly do not see why wax foundation is even manufactured any more it is such a pain to work with compared to plastic. Why use 1800s technology in the 2000s?


Well, now that you mentioned it, aside from cut comb foundation, I have no idea. Personally I think it's one of the great beekeeping innovations, I haven't bought a sheet of anything else in decades.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

Richard Cryberg said:


> Why use 1800s technology in the 2000s?


since when has "new technology" helped? A-bomb, computers (which can be used for as much evil), governments that have "assisted suicide", the list goes on...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Still learning, I see, Beestudent.   I thought you were foundationless?



beestudent said:


> since when has "new technology" helped?


Don't confuse what evil men do with tools as new technology.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> Still learning, I see, Beestudent.


Yup, got a ways to go 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1wjvP-raOI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGblsNXkJog


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## Geno (Apr 23, 2015)

beestudent said:


> since when has "new technology" helped? A-bomb, computers (which can be used for as much evil), governments that have "assisted suicide", the list goes on...


Other examples being electricity, telephone, modern medicine, the list goes on for what modern day inventions continues to provide for a civil mankind. I enjoy them most everyday and continue to be thankful. Especially thankful for those on Beesource that contribute in a positive manner toward modern day beekeeping. Keep up the good work 😃


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

New fangled plastic foundation! 
Wait a minute! 
Looks pretty uniform..controlled cell size....Hmmm, could be on to something here!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Impervious to shb and wax moth, less labor to install, easily reusable if a frame joint fails, no more getting poked by sharp wires in the extracting room, safely shipped and installed in cold weather and you don't have to worry about bees chewing holes in it if there is an unexpected delay in the honey flow. 
Downside? Hmmmmm. In a marginal flow bees accept it a bit better I guess.
Molded plastic foundation, one of the greatest beekeeping inventions ever!!


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

After thinking about my prior posts on plastic working just fine I think I will retract those ideas. It really is terrible stuff. Anyone that has unused deep or medium plastic foundation they want to get rid of just ship it to me and I will pay 20 cents a sheet to you so you can get rid of it.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i assembled my first frames and fit them with wired wax foundation per the recommendation of an old time beekeeper. several of those ended up blowing apart in the extractor. switched to preassembled frames with plastic foundation and never looked back.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm not sure if the rite-cell plastic foundation is the small cell or not?
So ordered a few boxes when they have the cyber sale. It is easy to
convert the plastic foundation into the natural wax foundation without
prying off the already assembled frames. Decided to test it out without any issue.
The rite-cell plastic is good for extracting while the wax foundation is good for
brood rearing depending on what expansion stage your operation is at now. Both have
their uses later on. The only difference I've noticed was that wax foundation at the same size
weight only 2 oz but the plastic foundation will weight 8 oz. It is clear to me to use the SC
wax foundation if I don't want to lift the heavy honey supers adding to their weight. My small
converted extractor can do both frames though. So is the rite-cell plastic foundation consider the SC or what?


Got some to try:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the rite cell i have purchased measures 5.4mm.


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