# honey management



## Davidnewbeeboxbuilder (Oct 6, 2012)

I want to know people's secrets for honey production. And how. Do u use hybrid queen s and excluders.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

No need to use any special queen, a quality Italian queen can lay all the brood a hive needs to produce bumper crops as long as she's got the room to lay. You can produce lots of honey with or without an excluder, I've done it both ways, you just need to know the methodology for each way. This is a good question that I always enjoy hearing answers to, one thing's for sure, there's a boatload of ways to produce good honey crops.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Davidnewbeeboxbuilder said:


> I want to know people's secrets for honey production. And how. Do u use hybrid queen s and excluders.


Secret? What makes you think there is a secret? Excluders don't make honey. What is a hybrid queen?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Secret? What makes you think there is a secret? Excluders don't make honey. What is a hybrid queen?


You're right, excluders themselves don't make honey, but a hive of bees with an excluder on it can make lots of honey. That is as long as you have honey supers above the excluder.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And if your hives are located where honey can be made.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The secret to making large honey crops is NOT giving your secrets away.

Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland said:


> The secret to making large honey crops is NOT giving your secrets away.
> 
> Crazy Roland
> Linden Apiary, est. 1852


oh Roland where is the fun in that?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Davidnewbeeboxbuilder said:


> I want to know people's secrets for honey production. And how. Do u use hybrid queen s and excluders.


Canola, clover, alfalfa, those are the tickets!


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Roland said:


> The secret to making large honey crops is NOT giving your secrets away.
> 
> Crazy Roland
> Linden Apiary, est. 1852


Do you think by giving your secrets away, you won't get as much honey? We're not talking mushroom hunting here.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Since location is important, knowing where Roland's apiaries are would be key to how he makes a crop of honey. Really productive locations can easily trump genetics, management, and other "secrets".


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Strong healthy colonies+location+weather=honey production. Weather-no control. Location-some control. Hive strength-most control.


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## busy bee apiary (Aug 7, 2010)

Timing! You don't want your hives to peak to early or to late. Figure out your main flow and build your hives accordingly.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

let's not forget effective swarm prevention, it can mean the difference between getting a nice harvest vs. none at all.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

The one thing you can't control, weather, is what killed me this year. Pretty much everything else fell into place, but the lousy weather led to one of the worst crops in 30 years.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

busy bee apiary said:


> Timing! You don't want your hives to peak to early or to late. Figure out your main flow and build your hives accordingly.


I couldn't agree more. Timing and giving them plenty if room are key elements in successful honey production. Too big too soon can lead to swarming and excessive feed/honey consumption. Too big too late and you can miss your major honey flow.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ian - you are right, no fun it that. My Father "gave away the farm", and we are suffering because of it. I will try to be polite to all, but don't ask to see my "hand". The stomach has been growling for too long.


Jmgi - but location often effects hive strength. Not all locations build the same. Often the management technique must be tailored to the different locations.

An example of being shrewd, and not giving away the farm. At the 150th party at Dadants, an unfortunate thing happened the day of the tour. The part of the foundation mill that crimps the wire was broken and removed. Coincidence, or guarding secrets? The Dadants seem better off than us(said with respect), so they may be smarter at keeping secrets.



Crazy Roland


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Roland are you serious, guarding "secrets" to making honey? I understand the analogy you tried to make about the Dadant's foundation mill, but I never regarded honey producing as being top secret for those who want to know the details. I respect your position though if you insist.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

You do a 7 year avg of 137 and people want to know the secrets. Started two new guys out this year, which was a good thing. If you can make it on a year like this, you'll never have any wonder if you make it in the business.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Yes, hybrid breeder queens from Latshaw Apiaries have made me a small fortune. My area in se south dakota isn't much of a honey production area but the hybrid vigor makes the whole year much more profitable. If you are lucky enough to have good bee territory that would make up for any lack of secrets assuming you are doing a few things right.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What's the hybrid of these queens? Being hybrid, I guess that means the second generation sucks? Like hybrid corn?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> What's the hybrid of these queens? Being hybrid, I guess that means the second generation sucks? Like hybrid corn?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland said:


> Ian - you are right, no fun it that. My Father "gave away the farm", and we are suffering because of it. I will try to be polite to all, but don't ask to see my "hand". The stomach has been growling for too long.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Now Roland, Im just kidding around.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Jmgi, no worries. Let's do some "what ifs". 

What would it be worth to have a system that could decontaminate CCD dead outs so that they can be used again? Remember, one of he symptoms of CCD is the bees not making honey. Would that be a secret worth keeping?

How about the bee blower? Would you give the technology away, or license some one to manufacture it? 

Crazy , no fun, Roland


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Latshaw's hybrids are his Carnica and Aurea lines crossed (italian/carni hybrids).


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland said:


> How about the bee blower? Would you give the technology away, or license some one to manufacture it?


you mean, like the leaf blower? I use a cattle show blower, 
is that a big trade secret I stumbles upon?

Roland, you taking this way to seriously


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Roland, the examples you have given about keeping some things secret maybe are justified, but I still don't make the connection to your honey production methods being secret, sorry, I just don't understand what you are trying to protect. You can't be doing something that has never been done before, can you? Maybe if I would have known your secret method I would have produced more than a 20 lb. average this season in my area with all the sucky weather we had. I sure could have used some secrets, yes sir.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Have we crossed threaded Thread Topics? There are no secrets to honey production, just look at all of the books out there. Be a good beekeeper and honey production will be as good as it is going to be. Unless you are willing to do what Honey Householder does you won't get everything out of a beehive that you can. If you don't manage your bees the ways that Tim Ives and Michael Palmer manage theirs, not saying they are the same, you won't make huge crops. Be a good beekeeper. Don't get too hung up on honey production. Do your best.


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

My secret is, four 7 5/8 boxes each with its own queen separated by queen excluders, box 1 is a African queen, box 2 is Italian, box 3 is carnolian, and box 4 is a feral, I then put a plastic excluder on top and 9 empties. Boom full of honey at the end of the season. I win for best secret exposed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Are you aware that it is illegal to import queens from Africa?


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Are you aware that it is illegal to import queens from Africa?


I have a secret spot down south.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lol Not anymore.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ian, maybe you are right, I am too serious. My father built the first bee blower in the 60's. It was written up in the ABJ, I will try to find the issue. I believe Dadant sold them(for that I am thankful) We receieved, because it was not asked for, no royalties.

I guess the point i am trying to make is that the OP should not expect secrets for free. Guidance maybe, but giving away secrets takes food off the table. 

Jmgi wrote:

You can't be doing something that has never been done before, can you? 

Well maybe I am. Can't say I've read of any one else doing it.
I am also building my own 90 frame extractor and an uncapping machine, frame is stationary, blades move. 


Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland said:


> I guess the point i am trying to make is that the OP should not expect secrets for free. Guidance maybe, but giving away secrets takes food off the table.


So lets say Im the one that will not give away secrets of any kind to anyone. I find the cure for some debilitating disease and use this cure to keep me and my family safe from this disease. BUT Im not interested in perusing the development of making that cure available to everyone else. I decide to keep it all to myself and my family, to keep us safe and unharmed while everyone else is exposed and many getting very ill. 

The secret from Alexander Fleming comes to mind...

In regards to your father and his development of the bee blower, thankfully he made the technology available to his fellow beekeeper because it is one of beekeepings most widely used techniques of removing bees from the box. If he had the passion to take that idea and develop it, he might of made a fortune in manufacturing that product but instead he provided that technology for all beekeepers to use freely


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

what would be interesting is to hear everyones tricks of the trade in collecting that crop of honey

getting it is easy, you have bees, you have boxes, and you have a nectar producing crop, taking off that crop has about as many variations as coffee shops has story tellers


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Heintz88 said:


> My secret is, four 7 5/8 boxes each with its own queen separated by queen excluders, box 1 is a African queen, box 2 is Italian, box 3 is carnolian, and box 4 is a feral, I then put a plastic excluder on top and 9 empties. Boom full of honey at the end of the season. I win for best secret exposed.


Since your african queen is in box 1, she would swarm. She needs to be in box 4 so she wont be able to swarm due to the excluders.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

RAK said:


> Since your african queen is in box 1, she would swarm. She needs to be in box 4 so she wont be able to swarm due to the excluders.


You might also want to consider sliding a shallow onto box 2 with that Italian, they can be rather broody.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Appropiate population for the season. High as possible when flows are on (without swarming), low when there is a dearth. Enough to make it through winter and to successfully build up in spring.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ian said:


> taking off that crop has about as many variations as coffee shops has story tellers


Hehe. I've been contemplating a method, that takes ALL the work out of it, and leverages on the 'back to natural' fads.

Set a 2 frame hand-crank extractor in the garage, with a bee-suit hanging on a hook. Then hang the sign in the driveway 'U-Pick Honey'.

Seems to work well for the blueberry folks...


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Heintz88 said:


> I have a secret spot down south.


Kind of guy who creates problems for all... thinks the rules don't apply to him......


As for honey production tricks... As mark said there are a lot out there.... the real key is you.. what are you willing to do for max production? will you move? will you travel? can you shake bees out on the ground? For me, i am in an area of low forage. so I have to spread out quite a bit....

Point being each area and person has to make those calls. If you absolutly want max production, some areas in AUS average 4-600 lbs a year.... Guy in the far north run 22 hours of daylight and do real well for 3 months.. and freeze the other 9....


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Lately I've been selling alot of sub in May, So I had to ask why in May, the keeper said we been making 30lb more with the bees that had sub in May.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Lately I've been selling alot of sub in May, So I had to ask why in May, the keeper said we been making 30lb more with the bees that had sub in May.


I believe a good sub fed early in the year before the bees are flying goes a long way towards a big crop, as long as you can keep the bees out of the trees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How much sub was he feeding per colony in May? What did that cost him? Apparently the economics is right for the person written about.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Management of Out-apiaries: Or, An average of 114 1/2 pounds of honey, in a poor season, and how it was done. G. M. Doolittle ... free Ebook at books.google.com

http://books.google.com/books?id=9f...page&q=a year's work in an out-apiary&f=false

I have used this method in the past with success. I call it the Doolittle Shook Swarm method.


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## Jon11 (Mar 29, 2011)

RayMarler,
Were you running for extracted honey or comb?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Lately I've been selling alot of sub in May, So I had to ask why in May, the keeper said we been making 30lb more with the bees that had sub in May.


hey Keith, send some of that sub this way for April!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Jon11 said:


> RayMarler,
> Were you running for extracted honey or comb?


I've used that method for both extracted and comb. I've also done it without using the excluder, for making extracted honey. Using the excluder, for me, is more of an option when my flows are not strong, but more off and on, because of location or weather or other reasons.

This way is similar I think, to how some people remove the queen and open larva brood, leaving a frame with eggs behind, at the start of a good flow. No larva to feed as the flow starts so get more honey stored.

There are a few different management tricks for helping to get more honey, each may depend on the strength and length of flows where you have your hives. I just listed that link to Doolittle's way of doing it a hundred years ago as one way, since the book is free to download and read. 

Strength of hives at start of flows and strength and length of flows for your area will determine a large part of how the honey harvest is per hive. I'd say this is at least half the battle, the other half is how you manage the hive to help increase the amount you might get without changing anything in the hive.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Live overwinter bees and preventing them from swarming is a good start. Know your flows for your area, know how the weather can effect them flows. 
Scale hives are a very useful tool.
Bees can't fill what's not there. O wait yes they can, they'll just find someplace else. 

Honey is the product of strong healthy hives.

Strong healthy hives is the secret......


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Davidnewbeeboxbuilder said:


> I want to know people's secrets for honey production. And how. Do u use hybrid queen s and excluders.


That is such a small question but it could take days to answer. There's not really any secret and info on managing colonies is out there in books, pamphlets from your ministry of apiculture, and local beeks ect. I think that the only secret beeks will keep to themselves is their yard locations. You'll also find that for honey producers, it's not just what we're doing at the start of the main flow. We're already getting ready for the flow in the fall by making sure we have populous colonies with good food reserves going into winter so when spring comes we can build them up fast for the early flow. 

It was said already here but I'll say it again. 3 things needed for good honey production, population + weather + flora = honey. Population can be controled by stimulative feeding, flora can be controled to an extent by moving bees but weather is the luck of the draw. So, if you've done your homework and your bees are strong and your bees are in a 160 acre field snow white with clover bloom, Now your only dependant on the weather.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I know it has been referred to a couple times already, and there are different angles to it, but the cut down split has been a great way to get a large crop in most seasons. When I did it before, I was using all medium boxes which made it easy to swap things around. As long as you are using all the same size boxes for brood, no matter the depth, it works out well. About two weeks prior to the start of my main flow, I would take a strong hive and separate the sealed brood frames from the unsealed frames, putting all the sealed brood in a box/boxes along with "one" frame of eggs. All the unsealed brood goes into another box/boxes with the queen. The bees are moved with the frames of brood, not shook off. The new hive with the queen is moved to a new location in the yard. The new hive with no queen but all the sealed brood and one frame of eggs is left on the original stand to pick up all the foraging bees coming back. They will raise a new queen from the frame of eggs, the sealed brood will all hatch out giving you a tremendous amount of foragers that have no brood to feed or take care of until the new queen mates and starts laying in about a month. Pile the supers on that hive right away because they will haul in the nectar faster than you can believe. Of course you need good weather and good bee forage for any of this to be successful to the extent I am talking about.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i tried this on a hive last year and it worked great, plus it didn't swarm.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

squarepeg, I did have one hive that swarmed on me, when the first queen hatched out she left, luckily I was there when it happened and was able to retrieve them. I united the swarm back with the hive it came from after I destroyed all the remaining queen cells on the one frame. That hive produced about 200 lbs. My normal average is around 100 lb.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

not bad at all jmgi. i can see how this would work better with all mediums. the one i did backfilled the single deep and when the new queen got mated they had to move all of that honey up into the supers.


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## Markt (Feb 8, 2012)

Seems like a ton of work... Has anyone tried that on a larger scale?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

No question there is some work to it, plus the extra equipment needed because you are making two hives out of one. I never did more than about 8 hives at a time, but I think one person could do 25-50 hives. If you have a larger operation with some help, you certainly could do much more. You do end up with twice as many hives, but you do get a new queen out of the process for one of the hives. You can always recombine the two hives at the end of the flow and get rid of the old queen, or even sell off half the hives as nucs, there are many options. I realized about a 100% gain in production on half of the splits, and the other half (with the old queen) can surely give you some honey also, but it will take much longer for them to build up a foraging force because all they got originally was the unsealed brood.


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## Davidnewbeeboxbuilder (Oct 6, 2012)

I apricate the replies. And info it sounds like making a split at beginning of flow with queen and open brood. Do y'all like the hybrids better


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

after the splits only half would be hybrids. i think people avoid hybrids because your next generation will be mutts anyway. i run italian mutts and carnis (only 100 hives) and get what i get when they raise another queen.


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## Davidnewbeeboxbuilder (Oct 6, 2012)

I was thinking of ordering a queen from a separate line each year to raise from to keep adding genetics and keep productive hybrids in outyards.


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