# Treatment free strategy



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I am sure you will hear from some naysayers, but I think it is a reasonable plan. I do recommend collaborating with the local beek if he is up for it. There may be something in his management that makes the difference. Good luck.


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## blackandtan (Aug 20, 2014)

Thanks, he was really helpful in the 15-20 min I got to talk with him. I have his contact info so hopefully I'll be able to pick his brain in the months to come. I asked him about some nucs but he's got around 100 already spoken for and he doubts he'll have anymore available. He'll be on my short list for next year!


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

The "Soft Bond Test" came to mind. I googled it and it pulled the article I remember. Interesting reading.
http://www.survivorstockqueens.org/John Kefuss Keeping Bees That Keep Themselves.pdf


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

All beekeeping is local and it sounds like you have found someone local that knows how it's done in your area so I wouldn't bother here unless that guys posts here lol seriously do what he does. If you cant get nucs from him see if you can get queens to requeen packages


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

your plan is similar to what i thought about doing a few seasons back. but since i wasn't seeing big losses or noticing obvious pms symptoms i got lazy on monitoring for mites. this year i took mite counts on a few hives and found them to be well above what most would say is survivable, yet they seem to be rocking right along. so i'm not sure how much value there is in using mite counts in a treatment free context.

my current thinking is it makes sense to pay careful attention to the broodnest as the bees are coming out of summer and going into their fall brood up. i've learned that a few sick brood and 10-15% infestation rates are not enough to lead to the collapse of a colony.

i haven't seen it yet but if i found widespread diseased brood, a dwindling population, and a mite count that was off the charts i would likely take action. that action would likely be to shake the bees along with the mites down to one box and stick it in the freezer for a week. this accomplishes not only culling the nonresistant bee genetics but also removes the potentially more virulent mite genetics from the pool.

part of the problem with treating and requeening a questionable colony, and if infestation rates end up not telling the whole story, is that by the time you find a hive failing it's probably going to be too late in the season to rehabilitate it.

if you can get up to about 10 colonies or more you can more than make up for 20-30% losses by splitting and catching swarms. i think i am already seeing improvement in my stock after just a few short seasons of winnowing out the ones who couldn't hack it for whatever reason. then again, my apiary may just be a ticking time bomb with the mites getting close to reaching critical mass. time will tell.

what you have going for you is the fellow you just met having ten years history of keeping bees off treatments with low losses in your area. i would consider getting to know this guy well, getting some bees from his stock, and mirroring his management practices. there's every reason to expect that you will likely get similar results.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Harley, you are right. One of the difficulties when starting is sorting out what advice will work, a regional filter is a good way to start.


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## blackandtan (Aug 20, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> All beekeeping is local and it sounds like you have found someone local that knows how it's done in your area so I wouldn't bother here unless that guys posts here lol seriously do what he does.


Good point.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>However, I've also read/heard of people that have tried to be treatment free lost all their hives. 

And I'll bet you've read/heard of people who TREATED and lost all their hives. I certainly have.

>Could this be a long term plan moving forward? If not, tell me why it's a bad template.

I'ts not a "bad" template. Certainly better than just treating. But let's play the devil's advocate first. The "treaters" would say in the fall a hive that has high mite counts already has the damage done.

I would say the two problems are:

1) how treating is going to affect the hive? This, of course, will depend on the treatment. The amitraz, fluvalinate or cumaphos will contaminate the comb and be there for years. The essential oils and organic acids will wreck havoc on the ecology of the hive. They will kill off virtually every kind of naturally occurring organism. The essential oils will also mess with the communication of the hive. Essential oils would include any of the thymol treatments. Organic acids would include formic, oxalic and acetic.

2) how do you breed for bees that can survive treatments when you are treating, and how do you not breed for mites that can reproduce fast enough to overcome the treatments?

What I want is a healthy natural ecology of what lives in a bee hive and bees than can survive without treatments and mites that can live in harmony with the bees. I don't see how to accomplish that while treating.


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## blackandtan (Aug 20, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >However, I've also read/heard of people that have tried to be treatment free lost all their hives.
> 
> And I'll bet you've read/heard of people who TREATED and lost all their hives. I certainly have.


Yes. You have a point there.

I had also not considered the selection of the mites themselves that's also something to consider.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yes people have lost hives that they "treated": *Effectively treated* is something different though. If you treat using a formulation that local mites have become resistant to, that is not effectively treating. That is operator error! Using a treatment outside its temperature window can be similarly ineffective. Waiting till too late in the season to effectively control damage to the young crop of bees that are necessary to overwinter would also be considered ineffective treatment and it certainly is among the list of things used to condemn the practice of treatment while the real failure was on the part of the operator.

Isolated examples with underlying causes should not be used to create generalities. It seems it is a common practice though!


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Harley Craig said:


> All beekeeping is local and it sounds like you have found someone local that knows how it's done in your area so I wouldn't bother here unless that guys posts here lol seriously do what he does. If you cant get nucs from him see if you can get queens to requeen packages


DITTO, or put up a few swarm traps about a quarter mile from his bees, even though a swarm is anyone's property if they can catch it, I would ask him anyway.


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## Brooks (Jan 5, 2015)

Thank you Adrian for posting this article it was inspiring. I have hives that are clearly able to manage the varroa mite and I want to focus on them this year. The article has encouraged me to do more investigating on the 'Soft Bond Test" method.!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Isolated examples with underlying causes should not be used to create generalities. 

If they were isolated examples, I would agree. But they are not.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> The essential oils and organic acids will wreck havoc on the ecology of the hive. They will kill off virtually every kind of naturally occurring organism. The essential oils will also mess with the communication of the hive. Essential oils would include any of the thymol treatments. Organic acids would include formic, oxalic and acetic.


While I can't comment on essential oils, formic or acetic, those hives treated with OA bounce back readily if in fact OA "killed off virtually ever kind of naturally occurring organism (which I seriously doubt). If you read the comments of those who have treated with OA, I believe you'll find their hives are much better after the treatment. I've not lost a hive to mites since I started treating with OAV.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>which I seriously doubt...

Organic acids are quite effective when used to sterilize equipment in a lab. Can you name a microorganism that is not killed by organic acids?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >Isolated examples with underlying causes should not be used to create generalities.
> 
> If they were isolated examples, I would agree. But they are not.


Relatively isolated then; certainly not representative of the normal, to be expected, mean. Not entirely without _some_ element of truth but not _free of spin_ either.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I meet well over a thousand beekeepers a year just at beekeeping meetings I speak at, not counting on forums and in my email. It is not at all isolated not even "relatively" isolated. Try any local, national or any other survey on losses by people treating and not treating. People are treating and losing a significant number colonies. People are not treating and losing a significant number of colonies. Yet those treating and not treating still have bees surviving.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> I meet well over a thousand beekeepers a year just at beekeeping meetings I speak at, not counting on forums and in my email. It is not at all isolated not even "relatively" isolated. Try any local, national or any other survey on losses by people treating and not treating. People are treating and losing a significant number colonies. People are not treating and losing a significant number of colonies. Yet those treating and not treating still have bees surviving.


I suppose there may be a similar ratio of beekeepers effectively / ineffectively treating as among not treating ones. I am seeing the ineffective non treating statistics and you are seeing the ineffective treating ones. I dont expect we are about to change each others point of view.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

First things first. Where are you going to get queens that are mite tolerant? 

A small operation leaves the beekeeper vulnerable to whatever genetics and whatever potential he starts with. If you make a point of starting with tolerant genetics, you have a high probability of success. I've watched threads like this for 10 years and the defining characteristic of successful treatment free small operation beekeepers is that they all start with mite tolerant stock. The toughest thing I did was to let them die. I got some tolerant genetics going and then I let every single colony die that was not able to handle mites. Splits can make up for losses if you have the genetics right. Keeping susceptible bees around just prolongs the misery.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Fusion power, that makes for a tough recipe for a beginner to follow. It seems tolerance is very often location specific plus not all claimed tolerant bees seem to stand up to the claims. How is a newcomer to acquire the resistant stock? Is there sufficient supply to fill the demand? How many newcomers can stand the financial and emotional toll of having a high percentage of bees perish. What would you consider a reasonable time frame before susceptible bees are weeded out before one says "uncle"?

I started out with reputedly tolerant bees on the advice of a bee inspector who knows the North; I was prepared to treat and only one hive definitely needed it. The last two years have seen fewer and fewer mites and I may indeed be able to quit treating entirely, but that would likely be due to my isolation from any other kept or feral bees. It is not because of allowing die offs as I have had non here in this location for three years. Very few people would have this scenario to insulate them.

I think your advice is probably very realistic to TF success but it sure is going to be tough medicine to swallow. I am lettting Tibor Szabo take the losses and I will raise my own queens here until I see problems of inbreeding because my hives likely have the genetics of only half a dozen possibly related original queens. 

http://honeybees.ca/bulletins/?page_id=946


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

You will not have to worry about inbreeding if every three years or so you bring in a few queens from good VSH lines of bees. I don't know how the idea got started that you have to let a colony die to find out if the bees have tolerance to the viruses varroa carry. If beekeepers would learn what a colony on the way to crashing looks like, and would be prepared to treat and re-queen when they see those symptoms, they would save their bees and not have the expense of replacing them. 

I started seeing progress after three years of stopping regular treatments and I have other beekeepers within 2 miles of me. For the last 3 years I have had no over-wintering losses in my established colonies, the ones on 20 deep frames, and prior to that the losses averaged 8%. My nucs average is 23% for my worst year. This year I have lost 1 full sized colony to queen failure, she was a Russian purchased in August, and it is possible I will lose another of her sisters. They both were laying poor patterns, but I broke my rule against falling in love with a queen and not pinching them before cold weather. In August I had to treat 1 colony of the 16 I am overwintering because they were uncapping and removing about 1 out of every 5 pupa.

Bees survive not because of small cell, natural cell, not feeding sugar syrup or other gimmick, but because they develop tolerance for the viruses, they are able to control the buildup of the varroa, and because they are properly managed. I believe in IPM and playing the percentages, but because most of my queens are from queen lines that have had no treatments since 2005, I only use drone brood removal regularly in my cell builder and drone and queen mother colonies. I split my established colonies to sell nucs and this is their main varroa treatment. 

Hobbyist lose bees because they fall for the snake oil and gimmicks they see touted on the internet and they fail to learn beekeeping basics. Some beekeeping practices pertain to all beekeeping, others are regional, and new beekeepers should listen to the advice of the most successful beekeepers in their area. Don't live in a dream world, you will not develop resistant bees with only a few colonies. By the best queens with VSH/Hygienic behavior, treat if necessary, and enjoy having healthy colonies.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

As I have stated before, I keep two apiaries eight miles apart, one treatment free and one that I sell bees from that I treat to satisfy state requirements. I wanted to be totally treatment free but was forced into treating by state regulations. Having the two yards to compare with has kept me from guessing and from going on this forum arguing with others on the validity of one or the other. I highly recommend doing this even if you only have a few colonies.


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## FollowtheHoney (Mar 31, 2014)

. That's a keeper. I just copied that to my 'journal'. Thanks AR BKR


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> The "Soft Bond Test" came to mind. I googled it and it pulled the article I remember. Interesting reading.
> http://www.survivorstockqueens.org/John Kefuss Keeping Bees That Keep Themselves.pdf


Thank you very much for the link Adrian, is very interesting and informative reading.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

blackandtan said:


> So here is what I was thinking, in an effort to save hives and move towards treatment free I would monitor for mites throughout the year. In the fall if a hive seemed to have an excessive mite load I would treat and requeen with stock from a treatment free beek or VSH queen. That way I reduce the hives lost and cull bad stock.
> 
> Could this be a long term plan moving forward?


Yes it could. I would add that after some years (how many years? make the decision today and stick to it, maybe 2-5) stop treating totally. 

My plan was reducing treatments little by little, plus good control over matings.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

David Berg said something to the effect that all the time he was growing up all the old Jewish men would say "it's hard being Jewish". As he grew up and went to school, his black friends would say "it's hard being Black". His American Indian friends would say "it's hard being an Indian". His hispanic friends would say "it's hard being Hispanic". One day he realized, "it's hard being human".

It's complicated keeping bees. Whatever path you have chosen. If it was simple we wouldn't have centuries worth of beekeeping magazines and thousands of beekeeping books, and thousands of posts on these forums. If it was simple someone would sum it up in two sentences and we wouldn't need anything else...

And, I might point out, this forum is for people who have chosen the path of not treating...


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >which I seriously doubt...
> 
> Organic acids are quite effective when used to sterilize equipment in a lab. Can you name a microorganism that is not killed by organic acids?


Sure:
bees.

Of course, that depends on dosage/ exposure doesn't it?

I suggest that the same is likely also true of the other organisms in the hive ecology.

EDIT >> I misread your post initially as "organism" rather than "micro organism"

Still the principle remains.

I'd further note that even if many microorganisms are absent after treating with organic acids, as long as the bees continue to do acceptably well for many seasons, I wouldn't much care, as it is the bees whose health I am concerned with.

Granted, some, perhaps even many, of those micro organisms may be essential to be health.

But the test --whether or not after many season the bees do well -- wil demonstrate whether organisms essential tobee health aer eliminated or not, without the need to identify which or how many organisms are affected.

I suspect reinnoculating a hive with whatever organisms might be damaged will often ( not always) be as simple as transferring a frame or two from another hive, together with the cultures of microrganisms native to that frame.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I want to keep bees without treating them, as I did in New York.

Maybe I;ll find some feral stock to start from as I did there, but that's not likely.

The Harveys at Olympic Wilderness Apiary keep treatment free bees, and if I remeber correctly Lauri ( who is nearby ) and John Jacob @ Old Sol ( a state way) both have a pretty strict "only if absolutely needed" IPM philosophy when it comes to treating.

Those would be possibilities, if I weren't broke presently, though the Harvweys as I understand, sell queens only and no nucs.

So if they make it to first flow this spring, my current dink that has suffered from mites this fall/winter will be treated with OA to help them get ahead of the mites, and then requeened -- preferably with one of the Harvey's local queens, from their untreated apiary. 

Everything costs something.
Sometimes, in order to get to "treatment free" a treatment or two may be needed in order to get bees to survive long enough that a good, mite resistant queen can establish an adequate population of her offspring to abandon treatments completely.

I don't mind if part oof the cost of that is re establishing a balanced ecology once the problem is overcome.

I use a similar philosophy in gardening, and with much success.


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## thewhiterhino (Oct 5, 2014)

Treatment of any kind will eliminate all beneficial pseudoscorpions from hives. Since normal habitat is decaying wood I believe these are coexisting in hollow trees with the bees. If I can figure out where to get some and how to raise them I will introduce them into all my hives for coexistence with my bees. The video shows one killing and eating varroa mites. I have also read they like wax moth eggs and who knows what else. I would prefer these to chemicals in my hives.
http://youtu.be/y1zdancXRDg


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

My almost treatment free strategy:

I was treatment free 1970-1995, the mites came. I tried Apistan and Checkmite, they became ineffective. I went treatment free until about 2012 and since then have dabbled with MAQS, wintergreen pads, and Hopguard on a just few hives. I will probably go back to 100% treatment free since the treating losses are still 20% or so. 

I am in an area flooded with hobby and wild bee hives and very favorable to beekeeping, which of course helps a lot.
I use primarily wild caught bees, my own swarms and swarm cell divides for expansion, those bees show about 30% losses. I also get a few swarm calls which I go collect. I am unable to keep purchased commercial California bees alive for a year, 90% losses. I have tried about five sources of them in the last two years. They are too drug dependent. 
I set up to 50 bait hives a year. I use the old black combs from the dead outs for the bait combs. I am able to catch over 30 bait swarms a year. I make summer divides with purchased queens. BWeaver queens last year were great, California queens sucked. 

I am renewing any brood comb older than 2005. I hope to expand my overwintering of nucs and use of locally mated queens.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

odfrank said:


> I am in an area flooded with hobby and wild bee hives and very favorable to beekeeping, which of course helps a lot.
> 
> I use primarily wild caught bees, my own swarms and swarm cell divides for expansion, those bees show about 30% losses.


You can't possiby know if the swarms you catch are "Wild" or not. There are so many managed hives where you are I would bet that over 90% are from hobbyist hives that got their bees from Califonia packages. I've had swarms land in my traps with marked queens. 

I've had package hives last three years and I've had swarms die out in less than a year. Your perception is your reality!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Charlie B said:


> You can't possiby know if the swarms you catch are "Wild" or not. There are so many managed hives where you are I would bet that over 90% are from hobbyist hives that got their bees from Califonia packages. I've had swarms land in my traps with marked queens. I've had package hives last three years and I've had swarms die out in less than a year. Your perception is your reality!


Read the post, moron, I didn't say they were wild. I said wild caught. Semantics. Of course some could come from package bee heritage. The difference is they have likely superseded, locally mated, and survived a winter. I bet less than 10% have recent package heritage. There are thousand of oak trees filled with bees. There are hundreds of hobbyist hives filled with swarm caught bees. Package bees are most often very yellow. A lot of what I catch is almost black.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I think it would help if you used common beekeeping terms instead of "wild caught". Who talks like that? Maybe a phrase like "bees from traps" or "swarm trap bees". Let's try to use a little more effort here. 

I didn't know you could tell if a colony is "wild" of not simply by their color. Anyway, my point is you can't claim ferrel hives do better than package bees when you don't know which is which.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> The "Soft Bond Test" came to mind. I googled it and it pulled the article I remember. Interesting reading.
> http://www.survivorstockqueens.org/John Kefuss Keeping Bees That Keep Themselves.pdf


Thank you Adrian for the link; this article is the most sensible approach to the varroa problem I have seen.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

You're welcome. I have trouble remembering anniversaries and Birthday's, but articles like that stay with me.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

odfrank said:


> The difference is they have likely superseded, locally mated, and survived a winter.


Aren't you guys in the Bay Area?
Do you ship your bees north to winter them?

I never saw a winter when I lived in the Bay Area.
I did see some oranges on backyard trees fairly early in the year, though.

Did Global Warming cool things down there enough since the 80's for an actual winter?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

It would be worth reading this thread from 2012. There are several good links worth the effort.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?262775-Varroa-tolerant-queen-breeders-for-2012


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