# This Beginner Needs Guidance



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Sounds like you need to do some reading. Try http://bushfarms.com/bees. Michael Bush has written a very complete book--all of which is available online. This is a very good place to start.

What you need is to learn what to look at and how to interpret what you are seeing. That will tell you what you need to be doing. I think Michael Bush's website will certainly point you in the right direction. By the time you've read everything on there, you should have a much better idea of what the hive needs for winter (or any time, for that matter.)

HTH

Rusty


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

what you need to look for is -honey- I cant tell from here but it looks like you have a medium 2 deeps and a shallow, keep in mind you need 80+ pounds of honey for winter in your neck of the woods and the honey needs to be above the cluster


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!

You should probably inspect your hive to determine what amount of food stores the bees have managed to put into that hive. If those 3 hive bodies are mostly full with comb occupied by brood, pollen and honey, they may have enough for winter. If those boxes are not mostly full, consider providing 2:1 sugar syrup.

A site that has lots of useful info in one place is Michael Bush's site:
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

hello all,
the top is actually a feeder. I have been feeding 1:1 solution, but I can up it to 2:1.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Don't get excited about the burr comb! normally burr comb is from the wrong beespace, but its a minor detail. VERY minor. we normally scrape it to keep from crushing bees. At the beginner level you should be looking for a few things. A laying queen, with a decent pattern (do not worry about seeing her) capped brood that are light tan, with no holes in the cappings. some eggs (white rice grains in the bottom of the cells) and some larve. the larve should be shiny white. not tan or dull. The other things to look for are the number of bees (should be a bunch several frames well covered) and food stores. as mentioned you need around 80lbs for them to get thru the winter well. That should be about a deep packed full it can be spread around a bit. 
Personally I am liking the method of counting frames covered with bees and 1 1/2 times as many frames of food. the other thing you might do is see if your state has inspectors. they can be handy to learn some things from. and are generally very helpful at finding others. You should also look at local clubs. the types of people who go to meetings are always friendly helpful types (which is why I skip them!)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The issue at this time of year is not burr comb (which I only scrape if it's in my way) it's stores. You need to start considering how many bees you have and how much they need to get through the winter. Local advice is most useful for this as it varies from place to place. It may be they don't need to be fed. It may be that they need to be fed a lot. Or it may be something in between.


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## falls pa (May 20, 2013)

looks like two mediums, then a deep, then the feeder. That deep on top is gonna get heavy!


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## Homemaid (Sep 4, 2013)

Where are you at in Mich. I am in the Thumb.. Tuscola County.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

Im in bruce twp. Northern macomb county.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

I am close. I would not scrape anything. As Mr. Bush pointed out, at this point in time it's stores. Your bees should be getting ready for winter and raising their winter bees right now. 
Your deep should be all filled and mostly capped - golden rod just got finished here. If you open it in the evening, when it's cooler, you should not see many bees there as they should be clustering below (unless there is brood in there).
Under the deep, you should see all the "seams" between the frames with 2 lines of bees in each with the possible exception of the 2-4 outermost seams.
The entire comb should be drawn. 
You should see mostly capped brood and less open/eggs as the queen is slowing down (about 80% capped). 
Overall, your hive should be quite hefty; you're looking at over 150 pounds.
If less, you need to feed and switch to 2:1
Finally, awkward or not, have this guy you bought the hive from come and take a look this one last time and help you determine if they are good to go into winter. You don't have a big margin for error in our winters here and winter prep is critical!


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## farmerdean (Feb 29, 2012)

You should probably lay those concrete blocks on their sides. I read somewhere about bumblebees taking up residence in that enclosed space and making the honey bees very angry. Also seems like it would be good mouse habitat.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

Sorry but id rather not have the guy over I dont deal with that kind of harassment. Thanks for all the input though im gonna open it up on sat. Should the top opening be open or closed?


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

dputt88 said:


> Sorry but id rather not have the guy over I dont deal with that kind of harassment. Thanks for all the input though im gonna open it up on sat. Should the top opening be open or closed?


You should have someone over, How about Merince?  Don't just open it on Saturday if you do not have a plan. Top entrance open, you will need some type of mouse guard. Indeed, burr comb is the least of your worries.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

2.5 hours drive  

Just a wee bit too far for my schedule. I will try to take some pics of what mine look like this weekend.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

Well hopefully I can find someone close to mentor me. I wasnt too worried about the burr comb, just thought it was a maintenence thing.


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## frankthomas (Aug 2, 2012)

dputt.. I am over in Grand Rapids. If you were closer I would invite you to the bee club I belong too. That is one thing I highly recommend. Find people you can talk to. If you can find a mentor to show you some things an maybe even come look at your hives that could be a huge learning experience for you.

And I agree with Rusty. Check out Michael Bush's website and/or get his book... http://bushfarms.com/bees.htm

I am in my first year as well and maybe the most important thing I have learned about bees (and I have read a ton) is that I barely know what need to know. I hope you enjoy learning!


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Like everyone says, check out Michael Bush's site. Also join a beekeeper association and get to know someone who can help you go in the hive. Over time you will get the hang of it. Take a beginning beekeeping class.


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## Glen H (Aug 17, 2013)

By the way, that is a very nice work you did on painting the hive!


Glen


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

thanks everyone i have been reading the bushfarms website here and there, though between school work and all the projects i have at home its a bit slow going. if anyone knows of a beekeeping association in macomb county MI it would be extremely helpful if you pointed me in the right direction. also if some one near by wants to come over i can pay for gas and what not for your instruction but i really dont have much money. like i said im free all saturday but out of town sunday.


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## frankthomas (Aug 2, 2012)

dputt here is a link to the South East Michigan Beekeepers Association.... http://sembabees.org/


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

dputt:

Basically, you need to evaluate your stores and the hive's population. As already mentioned, you can check for stores by lifting the back side of the hive. You can assess the population by taking a peak under the inner cover. If it looks good at this point, you can just close it up and call it good.

As promised, I did get some pictures from my nucs and singles. You can find them here: http://www.donnellyfarmsohio.com/2013/09/fall-inspection-for-my-nucs-and-singles.html


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

merince said:


> dputt:
> 
> Basically, you need to evaluate your stores and the hive's population. As already mentioned, you can check for stores by lifting the back side of the hive. You can assess the population by taking a peak under the inner cover. If it looks good at this point, you can just close it up and call it good.
> 
> As promised, I did get some pictures from my nucs and singles. You can find them here: http://www.donnellyfarmsohio.com/2013/09/fall-inspection-for-my-nucs-and-singles.html


thanks, that was helpful. i wasnt able to work the hive saturday, we had a lot of dark clouds in the sky and i thought it was going to rain though it never did. anyways today seems like great weather so im gonna try to wrap things up early at work and head home to investigate.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Good luck and let us know how you did!


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

If I need to feed them is 2 gal of 2:1 a good amount?


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Depends how much you need to feed them or how short they are. You can "eyeball" how much you need to feed them by your final "target" weight. So how short are they?

I usually make a batch of 5:3 out of a 25 pound bag of sugar and 15 pounds of water. So that makes about 5 gal and weighs 40 pounds. I estimate that 2 gals of 2:1 weigh about 16 pounds, so it will fill about 2.5 frames. It takes about a week for my singles to take 1 gallon of 5:3, too. 2:1 does not spoil nearly as much as the 1:1, so how often do you want to go there and add if they need more?


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

ok so I just went out to the hive, my guess is that its 80-100 lbs, im comparing that to a 100 lb bag of turkey feed. I mixed up the 2:1 before I even went out there, because I pretty much knew it was not going to be where it should be. so I added 16 lbs of sugar to about a 1.5 gal water and was about 2.5 gal in the end so it was a little less than 2:1.
so I open up the hive and there were these bugs, maybe just random bugs but im not sure. are these bad?



then I removed the inner cover and there were plenty of bees in the empty feeder, in the past my bees have been consuming 1 gal of 1:1 in about 3-4 days. removed the empty feeder ( it was glued together very well. and here is what I saw.



two rows of bees as mentioned






But clearly several frames of the top deep were bare. 



I fed all 2.5 gal of food that I had mixed up today, because I wont have time to check them until next Saturday, weather permitting, I always say weather permitting because its always so nice when im at work and then when im drining home or its a weekend its just always really poor weather, lots of rain for us this year.


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## Glen H (Aug 17, 2013)

When you say the hive felt like 80 to 100 LBS was that the weight from you lifting the back of the hive? or double the weight of lifting the back of the hive?

When weighing the back of the hive you are only approximately lifting half the weight.
So you need to double that to get an approx. weight of the entire hive.

For example when I hooked my luggage scale onto the bottom board at the back of one of my hives and lifted it and the hive tilted forward a bit it read 55 lbs. So my hive weighed approx. 110 lbs. A more accurate way of course would be to weight the back then the front and add the two together for the total weight.

Glen


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

my estimate was that the entire hive weighed about about 80-100 lbs, it was rather easy to lift the back end.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Dputt:
Did you happen to take a peek into the mediums below? Were there any bees, brood or stores in the mediums? Did you see any brood into the deep?
The population of this hive seems low, especially considering that you’ve been feeding them pretty much non-stop. There are several steps that I would take if this was my hive.
First, I would reduce both entrances to under an inch, preferably around ½ inch or so in order to reduce the chances of the hive getting robbed out.
Second, you need to determine why the population is low and what portion of the hive they are using. Take a peek in the mediums below. Do you see bees? Are the frames empty or do they have stores in them? Take a peek into the frames in the deep also. Are the middle frames full of brood, stores, or a combination of the two or something else?
The goal here is to assess how many frames they have that have stores and whether you can reconfigure the hive to reduce the amount of space they need to heat during the winter.
Keep in mind that Russians usually winter in smaller clusters than Italians and therefore need less stores to keep them through the winter.
Keep us updated!


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

Ok. Now that you mention it I knew I should should have looked farther into the issue as you mentioned in that link. But I get a bit nervous when working the hive because I like havimg the bees so much and I dont want to mess things up. I guess ill have to wait some time before I can get back into that hive because that feeder is full.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

No problem, hindsight is always 20/20


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

so I took a peak at the feeder today and it looks like 1 gallon is gone. I only cracked it open because I didn't want to disturb them but there were thousands of bees in that feeder and the swarm outside the hive ispretty intense too. so I lifted the hive again today and with the remaining food in it, I think I was a little low on my guess so I now claiming the hive is 100-120 lbs. 

heres a pic


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

OK, seems that they should be done with the feed for the weekend, so you should be able to look into the boxes.

I still think that you need to reduce the entrances - no need to tempt fate at this point. Also, since you are in a wooded area, you should really conceder putting a mouse guard on.

When you open the boxes, your goal is to see if you can reduce the size of the hive. Bees winter better if they fill nicely (or even overcrowd a little) their space. I suggest you try to reduce the size of the hive, so they can better regulate the internal temperature.

From the previous pictures, looks like only the middle 4-5 frames on the deep were built/had stores. There are several possibilities about how the bees are using the boxes.

1.	Your bees built a “chimney” through the boxes. All the boxes will have frames drawn in the middle of the box and empty frames on the sides

2.	The 2 bottom mediums are all drawn and have supplies/brood, the deep is the only box not completely drawn (aka their super).

3.	The 2 bottom mediums are empty.

If you have situation 1, try to consolidate the boxes as much as possible. Depending on how many drawn frames and how many frames with stores/ brood they have, you can either drop them down to 2 mediums by transferring the full deep frames into the 2 mediums (yes, you will have space under the deep frames, this is worst case) or into 1 medium + 1 deep. Whatever configuration you choose will depend on how many drawn frames you have in the boxes. Keep in mind brood goes into the middle, honey goes on the outside.

If you have situation 2, then see if 6 or more frames are drawn in the deep. If they are, leave them alone and feed to let them finish it somewhat. If you have 4 or less drawn frames in the deep, just pull it and let them winter in 2 mediums. You can keep the deep frames in the freezer and give the deep back to them towards the end of April/beginning of May

If you have situation 3, pull the mediums.

After you assess whether you need to reconfigure them, you need to decide if they need additional feed – that is how much empty frames they need to fill.
Keep us updated.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

Im worried about this chimney thing. I now see the benefit of having an all medium hive. If they have made a chimney can I move emptyframes between full ones to get them to fill more frames


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

dputt88 said:


> Im worried about this chimney thing. I now see the benefit of having an all medium hive. If they have made a chimney can I move emptyframes between full ones to get them to fill more frames


I would advise against doing it. You want them to fill as much as possible, but you need to keep in mind they have about one brood cycle left. Basically, the existing bees need to be able to maintain the hive temps, so you need to size the hive to the amount of bees. You add empty frames between full ones in the spring when the bees are in expansion mode, the weather gets progressively warmer and less nurse bees are needed to keep the brood at optimal temps.

So, you need to take out any undrawn frames and hopefully reduce their space, so they are "snug as a bug" for winter


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

ok im gonna try to get home somewhat early today as well, i want to see how far they have gotten on that food so i can check those lower mediums and add more food if they need it.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

well i did not get home early enough to work the hive. which also led me to ask a couple of questions. when is it too late to work the hive? i assume this is measure by how many hours of day light are left in the day. also how often can you work a hive? i was just in there on monday, if i had worked the hive today would that have been too soon?


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

The rule of thumb is to space inspections about 3 days or so. 

However, I've done it more often than that, especially when raising queens. Put the blank foundation in, retrieve it 24hrs later. Due to my work, I've often been in the hives during dusk or even after dark with the headlights on the car on. However, that was not full inspection but a quick in-and-out and I had full beesuit on. Also it was summer, and the low was 70s and I was going into nucs, not full hives.

Keep in mind that after dark bees crawl and do not fly. It's a pain to get them off you. They are also more defensive, so a suit and a smoker are a must. I don't recommend doing it unless there is no other option. For what you need to do, you need to make sure the temps are at least in the 60s and you need to leave yourself enough time, so not to feel rushed. You'll probably need about at least 1 hour before dark.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

Awesome, the temp is great here right now, 75F yesterday, looking at about the same today. im hoping to be home by 4:30 today to work the hive.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

ok well i did get home in time to work the hive, before going out there i mixed up 4 gal of 2:1 (sugar was way cheap today) and squeezed in almost 3 gallons for them. i did not however look at individual frames, once again i was nervous and decided this might be ok for now and i can do more on monday. so here are pics of everything.

first off i wanted to show that im not in a completely wooded area. heres a short video of the are around the hive.

http://youtu.be/fGw6FhKQ04U

and here are pics of the hive as i worked down.

the feeder is empty



the top deep is looking a tiny bit fuller, the bees are definitely paying more attention to the outer frames.







here is the upper medium, a little bit of chimney going? or is this a lot?







here is the lower medium, pretty much full.







and an overall of the hive again.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Dputt:

I am pleasantly surprised with what you found out on this inspection. Looks like they haven't completed only the 2 outer frames of the one medium and are working on it and the deep. The population looks good. I don't see bunches of drones or any obvious issues, so I think you're good on that aspect.

I don't think you need to try to downsize them - looks like you just need to keep up on top of the feed, so they are able to get the deep done as much as possible!

Good job!


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

Glad to hear that my hive is doing well. Now my plan for spring was to make the brood changers just 2 deeps, but now I think I want to do an all medium hive. Thoughts?

Anything else i should be doing to prepare for winter?

Also the guy who sold me that the russians are mite resistant, is this true? I ask because we had a few warm days and i removed the bottom board, i saw a few tiny bugs inside the hive, not the ones pictured previously. I need to look up mites.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Scientific beekeeping is a pretty good resource on varroa. Here is the site http://scientificbeekeeping.com/varroa-management/


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

so i worked the hive yesterday, the second medium is full not and the deep that is on top its 1/2 way. i reduced the entrance last week. but since i have a new bottom board and the entrance is lower than when i bought the hive i can only set the entrance reducer in front of the entrance, is that how it is supposed to be?

also i am worried that my hive is having trouble with intruders. i notice several very large bees entering the hive, they were just about all black and were easily and inch in length with a lot of girth to them. easily 4 times the mass as my bees. any thoughts?


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

In the front is fine as long as it is tight to the box. A pic with the bees will be helpful (and the reducer). A reducer will help them guard better unless you are seeing drones.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

They didnt seem to do anything about these larger bees. I didnt think drones were that much larger though. I can take a pic of the reducer when I get home


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

here a pic of the entrance it was getting pretty late when i took this


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Looking good. We're about to the end of the season here - time to get that feeder out if you haven't already.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

Ok ill do that this weekend


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Looks like everything is coming along.

Your hive looks a little shady.

Full sun is best for your hive. I have some hives in shade and they have more hive beetles and wax moths. Also during colder flying days when temps drop bees returning home to a shaded entrance can often get chilled before they make it inside. Afternoon sun can help this.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

i cleared a lot of the brush around the hive it gets a lot more sun now. but the days are getting pretty cold and i have some more questions. 

i was thinking about wrapping the hive with tar paper as i have read about here? opinions.

also when do i close the top entrance, if ever?

im assuming its time to reduce the entrance all the way now but im asking anyways, it it that time?

and how many of you use ratchet strap to make sure and animal or something doesn't knock your hive over my dogs jumped a skunk near the bee hive a couple weeks ago, im well aware of why he was there, but i would hate to see something bigger come along and ruin this for me. good idea or bad?


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

You can wrap with tar paper - personally, I use the 1" rigid pink foam on the top of the inner cover and around the body.

You can reduce the top entrance, but I wouldn't close it off. This is also the time to reduce the bottom entrance and put mouse guard.

I use a strap, but I use the cam buckles since they are not so prone to seizing up.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

and what style of mouse guard would you recommend? just hardware cloth? is so what size do you use?

has anyone used black corrugated plastic, like the stuff all of the politicians use to make their road side signs, because i know of a place where i could get that cheap.

where do you find this ridged pink foam?


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

You can use the 1/4" mesh fencing for animal pens. The foam is available in most home improvement stores. You can also use styrofoam sheets and the like.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

dputt88 said:


> and what style of mouse guard would you recommend? just hardware cloth? is so what size do you use?
> 
> has anyone used black corrugated plastic, like the stuff all of the politicians use to make their road side signs, because i know of a place where i could get that cheap.
> 
> where do you find this ridged pink foam?


I wouldn't use the corrugate plastic. Mice can chew through that. Pretty much anything that has accesses 3/8 ", or less, that mice can't chew through will work. I like to use mouse guards that will still allow the bees to clean house without having to lift anything over a lip to get it out.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

sorry i should have been more clear, i was thinking about the corrugated plastic to wrap the hive in. my fault.


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## frankthomas (Aug 2, 2012)

dputt.. 

I am in Grand Rapids just the other side of the state from you.

If the hive is as heavy as it should be I wouldn't think you'd need straps. But I'm not telling you not to. But definitely a decent rock or part of a cement block on top the lid to keep the lid on in a strong wind.

I am wrapping my hives in tar paper this weekend. I have put the solid inserts in the screen bottom boards but I drilled a 5/8" hole in the back corner for increased bottom ventilation. I offset it so that the cool air entering the hive would not be right under the cluster. My entrance is reduced down to 3" with 1/2" mesh over it. I hope the 1/2" isn't too big.

Ventilation is more important than insulating. Not that you can't do both. Bees can tolerate cold much better than wet. And if your hive does not have decent ventilation, the warm moist air hitting the underside of a cold upper cover can condense and drip back down on the bees. That will kill them as quick as anything.

I built 3.5 inch "quilt boxes" to fit above my top box. I stapled window screen to the bottom of these short boxes. Drilled 3 - half inch holes in 2 opposite sides of the box for exhaust and stapled screen over these holes on the inside to keep pests out. I filled these boxes with 3 inches of aromatic cedar shavings like they use for rabbit cages.

This box goes directly on the hive and the outter cover goes directly over that. No inner cover is used. I have heard a lot of good reports of winter survivability using that system. 

The tar paper will be just high enough so that all seams between the boxes are covered. My boxes are all new and fit well so there shouldn't be any drafts between them but this will ensure that. The primary advantage will be the heat absorbtion of the black paper from whatever sun can find my hives.

The last thing I will do this week end is erect a wind break on the north and north west side of the hives. My bees are in the woods so I don't get strong wind but just something to keep any direct wind from hitting the hives.


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## Homemaid (Sep 4, 2013)

Dputt I sent you a private message about a friend of mine. She has bees and is in .bruce Twp.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

So i have cleared all of the honey suckle that had taken over the pine trees and trimmed the low branches around the hive, i have wrapped it with insulation not blocking either entrance. the opening of the hive faces south and should get a good amount of sun over winter i have also put up 4x8 pices of scrap wood we had in the barn as wind breaks to the north and west. let me know what you think. am i ready for winter???


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Looks great! As ready as you are going to get!


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

Great, i really hope they make it through the winter.


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## Homemaid (Sep 4, 2013)

Did you ever get ahold of the person I sent you on an instant message. She is in your Twp. And she would be very helpful if you just ask.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

Yes I did. Thank you. Ill send you a pm now.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

I would read up on the russian bees, if that's what you have. The russian breeder association has some good info on them. From what I gather, the russians have a lot of peculiarities, and tips/observations that may be adapted for italian bees may be somewhat less for for the russian bees.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

Dominic said:


> I would read up on the russian bees, if that's what you have. The russian breeder association has some good info on them. From what I gather, the russians have a lot of peculiarities, and tips/observations that may be adapted for italian bees may be somewhat less for for the russian bees.


wow i read the late fall and winter segment of one of the articles posted on that site, i didnt realize they were that much better at over wintering than italians. im a little more confident now. still a little worried because its supposed to be a hard winter this year.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

should i have added a super on top of the inner cover with pink foam as well? any insulation on the bottom? kinda late to be asking now, there has been snow on the ground since yesterday afternoon.


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

so the hive seems to be doing fine. the bodies of the dead are starting a small pile just outside the opening. i assume this is typical winter behavior for the bees.

so today is cyber monday and mann lake has 10% off everything. 

i want to make the best out of next year so i was thinking should i buy a couple more hive set ups for splits in the spring? also are there any treatments or supplements i should keep on hand? pretty much i want to get everything ill need for next year today so suggestions would be nice

Thanks


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## dputt88 (Jul 27, 2013)

oh and also im currently using a mix of black and natural colored rite cell frames. should i stick with these or should i switch to something else.

what would you reccomend


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