# Bad luck, dead hive, now what...



## woodchuck (Oct 12, 2015)

Hey all,
New here but I have a few questions regarding "now what?" questions.
Some background. Our first year the hive died pretty quickly due to a dud queen. We tried again this year with a new box of bees and got much better success. We left them alone and they did well. As I was winterizing them, I noticed they are dead again. Most likely the queen died. Zero signs of parasites, lots of drone combs.
So now I have a bunch (10?) of frames, many of which were cross combed and full of dead drones. They most likely have some wax moths too which the comb will get frozen for.
So should I save all the combs for next year? Do I need to pull out the dead drones? Can I just melt down the bad combs and give next years bee's a block of wax?
Any idea on why we are having dead queens?
thanks,


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Need lots more information. Did you leave then alone from spring till just now. What method did you use to decide there were zero mites? Did the hive swarm. is there any signs of worker brood? Were you attempting foundationless? 10 frames; did the hive not get beyond 10 frames?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!

>> So now I have a bunch (10?) of frames, many of which were cross combed and full of dead drones. 

You have posted in the Top Bar forum, so assuming you do have a top bar hive, we generally reserve the word "frames" for hives that actually have frames - Langstroth style hives, typically. Top Bar Hives (TBH) normally just have 'bars' (even with comb). 'Drawn combs' is another option.

You can certainly save bars with comb for next year, but if you have a lot of cross comb, that makes it difficult to manage the TBH. If you want to melt it down, there is no need to remove the bee carcasses, they will separate out as the melted wax cools into layers.

If you have lots of cross comb, perhaps you should consider a different style of comb guide. Discussion of various comb guides here: http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm#guide


>> Any idea on why we are having dead queens?

If you haven't taken any steps to control varroa mites (or at least determine the extent of possible varroa infestation), that may be the most likely underlying cause of your bees' failure to thrive.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Welcome to BeeSource! Sorry to hear you've lost bees two years in a row. Don't give up, use the situation to learn from. Good advice from Graham. Next year I would suggest starting with two hives so you have resources to fix problems that arise such as losing your queen or needing to move frames (bars) of brood from one hive to another for a brood boost, etc. Good luck.


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## woodchuck (Oct 12, 2015)

Yup... Bars not frames. I already have a wooden triangular bars, which the link suggested is the best. More history... The bees reproduced very well, making much comb. We did check the bars in the spring and found larvae and healthy numbers. We then left it alone for the rest of the summer (laziness or just hands off approach). I don't know when she died but the queen very clearly died and the numbers dropped at some point in time before October. The final bees finally died in early October as we got some chilly nights.
Back to my main question. What is the best thing to do for the next batch of bees regarding the current comb? Is it OK to give the next hive a pile of broken comb? If I don't melt down the comb do I NEED to remove the dead drones?
The current comb is in bad shape. Since the hive died, a mammal had made a leaf nest in the hive (removed today), there are some webs on the hive but no large worms found, some of damaged comb from the caterpillars or rodent. Much of the comb is crossed on to the next bar. Not pretty but it would be nice to help out the next hive with whatever I can salvage.
Thanks


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

As far as I know bees don't recycle wax so a pile of broken comb, or a block of wax is useless to them. I suppose you could sew pieces of comb to your bars (keep it right side up) they will weld it together and attach it to the bar. If you can fab a couple of bars it will suggest which way they should go. Straight bars beget more straight bars. The bees will clean out the old larva.

Above is only restatement of what I have read. I've not actually done it.
Bill


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

1 yes
2 no
3 no
4 and no I have no idea why you're losing queens.

You seem to like leaving out all the details so I've left the details out of the answers for you. Less reading.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

woodchuck said:


> Zero signs of parasites


Hmmmmm....between this and 'we left them alone for the rest of the summer'....kind of gets the red flags raised.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Why do you care about your bees now... but not between something like late April or early May and now? I find that baffling to be honest.

If I had to guess based on my TBH experience:
1. They built up a tiny brood nest.
2. They felt cramped because they are restricted in movement because of horizontal layout.
3. They made some queen cells.
4. They swarmed.
5. They swarmed.
6. They got a virgin mated and started back on 1. Or didn't get her mated and went on to 7.
7. Laying workers.

Then at some point this summer while they had no parasites and no inspections they also had no queen.


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## mountainmanbob (Jun 3, 2015)

Dear woodchuck
Sorry to hear about your loss of bees.
Very disappointing I would think, to say the least.
Don't give up and study up regarding what to do next time.
As mentioned on thread already, seems regular close inspections for new keepers is in order.

I owned 100 hives 40 something years ago.
Knew next to nothing back then and it seemed the bees took good care of themselves (most of the time) did lose one hive if I remember correctly.
These days in my retraining with our two new hives -- seems to be harder to keep hives healthy ?
One example -- we didn't have the killer bees around here back then.
MB


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## HappyBeeing (Apr 6, 2013)

My 2 cents:
Unless you Found a dead queen I don't the queens "died".
I'm honestly not trying to be hard on you but I wanted to list "facts" as I've learned them(most I learned Before I got my first top bar hive).

I think the queens swarmed out with most of their workers because you didn't make space in the brood nest for the queen to continue laying in the Spring and Summer. In top bars queens need blank bars added to their brood nest by the beekeeper Usually. (there are exceptions to Everything with bees but adding space is First year Standard top bar beekeeping). It's the difference between being a "beekeeper" and Just a ,person owning a hive. These days just Having a hive and being "hands off" usually kills it.
Bees don't need a full top bar to swarm...they might swarm with only 10 bars of comb. They might swarm in Sept or Oct if the queen feels crowded even though it's Not logical because they are goners making a new home elsewhere that late. But the queen doesn't Just die...she leaves with whoever she's got flying.

Top bar hives don't usually thrive for more than one season with NO manipulation. As soon as any honey comb gets made after the brood nest, the queen gets blocked into her original brood nest. They don't often pass a honey bar to lay more brood when they've filled up what they've got. It's the nature of top bar maintenance to need to put blank bars right in the brood nest several,if not Many times,early and mid season Starting the First Year. See the Michael Bush website.

Most often when the swarm leaves there are nurses that make a new queen. It sounds like yours left way too many drone combs and what nurses were left didn't make a queen. Some top bar keepers pull out and kill drone comb too to make Space early in the season(freeze and replace for the bees to clean out or feed to your chickens  ). I've had 2 top bar hives recycle themselves normally if I couldn't do a split in time and they swarmed and for a third hive I had to add a new queen last year and this year....they Just didn't make queen cells like the other two. I'm Letting that one go this year since the splits I've made thrive but buying new queens didn't work for me. Buying a new queen-when you see a low population from swarming but still have some brood,nurse bees(the ones not leaving the hive to fly yet but covering combs inside)and honey in the hive Usually works though. I just happened to find out that I do better starting over with a split of my local bred mutts(from original Carniolans). Even for a First year beek,as others said,having a second hive is standard....but you must learn how to use it to redo your empty hive. Learning maintenance and doing inspections IS being a "beekeeper".

ALSO mites will kill off the "leftover" bees (that didn't swarm out) in untreated hives Sometimes or the whole colony by the end of the year when it's big but has not swarmed. Other times the "break" of about a month while their new queen grows (after a swarm leaves) is enough to kill the mite cycle. Mites often kill first-year hives too,although top bars do well "going natural" in some areas. It's partly a "location" thing. In some areas local bees will be resistant but "bought" bees often are not....even in a top bar. Most top bar keepers that go untreated have raised their own queens,local bred,First. They also Usually have a good many hives to work with to cover losses.


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