# Using two queen hives for more efficient splits



## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Hi, I was wondering if using two queen hives for splits would be adventageous. My plan was to make several splits by removing several frames of open brood, placing them in a new box which i then close for a few days until they start to make queen cells. I then place each of the frames with queen cells in a new box underneath an existing hive,excluder in the middle, filling in the box with frames from the supers or empty drawn comb. I then let the new queen finish her brood-chamber before i move the split to a separate location and starts the winter prep. The way i see it this will increase the strength of the split as there are alot of nursing-bees around already and you also get the heat from the existing hive. I should add that the end of the season here is in late august/beginning of september but the hive has some brood up untill late november when the temperature starts to drop beneath 0.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Does it snows in your area?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Humm, this is a good idea.
I have run the 2 queens side-by-side set up before going into winter.
But never a split hive with the cells underneath an existing queen right hive. My
only concern is without any cell protection the existing queen right workers will tear down
those cells since they don't need another queen being queen right now. So if you can protect
the cells until they emerged and got mated then maybe you might have a 2 queen set up. My
experience with the virgin queen was that after 3 days the queen right workers will kill her if they
dont' like her. So now I only make splits with the cells in their own separate mini mating nucs.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Pondulinius, that seems to be very like the use of screened division boards to raise a split under the same roof and the existing bottom board. If you do a search on this forum or a Google search on Snelgrove Board you will find some ideas. I have been using it to produce new queens and splits for several years.

I have not tried by putting the split under the mother colony; always above. It might work fine. The problem with this stacked method is the added difficulty with inspections especially when honey supers are included in the stack.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Beepro: yeah, winter usually sets in around middle of december. We always experience a few days of -30C each winter. Ive got carnica bees, you think i will experience trouble with them attacking my queen? I imagined this to be a problem only after the queen was mated? 

The reason i want the split on the bottom is that i am afraid the new queen will exit from the drone vent and come back through the entrance board, where the old queen would be waiting, if i put the split on top. 

Crofter: Ive got a snelgroveboard, but im afraid it wil hinder the bees from mingeling? Will the bees from the queenright part enter the split through the entrance of the snelgrove board? If so, they can be a threat to the new queen just as much as if the two hives were separated by an excluder. 
I want the split to enjoy the comfort of a strong colony so that it grows fast;-)


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It doesn't matter whether or not the queen is a mated one.
The older workers will kill the new queen if they don't like her. /It is more
trouble when she has contact with the queen right side. Over the winter they
will sort themselves out and only choose the strong queen to head their hive when 
Spring arrives. I've already done such an experiment to find out the outcome.
So the only way to build a strong hive and not have the queen kill is to use a divider
board to separate the 2 hives. Or a #8 wire window screen will work since they can 
still share the heat in the cold winter time. My winter is very mild otherwise I will
house 2 queens in the same hive box with upward movement on 2 separate sides and hive
entrance. There are more than one tricks to make a strong hive and more honey too.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

That is a pitty... I need to do more research i guess. I know that there are people that run vertical two queen hives with only a excluder in between the brood-boxes but maybe there is a low success-rate. Anyway, there is not big of a risk to try this as i get to keep the brood i use for the split in any case so maybe ill try it on a few hives. 

I will not winter them in a two queen hive, after brood box is filled i split the boxes. I dont see how i would be able to keep the bees from going up through the excluder without using snelgrove boards, and if i use snelgrove i need to use two entrances,which again makes the hive cold.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If you don't want the hive to get cold then use the 4 frames nuc method. 
This way they will keep the cells warm. Over here I use a plastic dish cleaning net
to separate the 2 hives without using a QE. Then they can share the heat in between the
2 hive boxes. The top box will have a small opening while the cells are in development. The bottom box is where
the laying queen is at. Of course, I have to make the upper box a bit crowded to compensate for
the lost foragers too. If I don't have enough bee resources then making a 4-way queen castle at the top box over
a dish cleaning net with 4 separate small hive entrances will do. The bottom box is as usual with a laying queen.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Thanks for tips and help This will unfortunately be next years project. I decided to just do things the old way and make separate splits with two mated queens. But next spring will bee fun i think


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

With the snelgrove system you deliberately mix the bees by diverting workers into the production part of the hive as soon as they are old enough to fly. Your mother hive will have its entrance on one end or side and you set the split hive so the virgin queen orients to a door 180 degrees opposite. I have not had one fail to return to the desired entrance. 

If you want to combine rather than split off the new hive, simply remove the division board and since the bees have been sharing the same atmosphere, no fighting amongst bees or aggression to the new queen. The two queens may lay together or the young one will most often take over the hive. If you already have a Snelgrove board it seems like the way to go.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I think using the snelgrove board will limit the number of queens one can make
in a single graft or split. Let' say I have 10 queen cells that is ready for the mating
nucs. By making their individual mating nucs I can increase by chance by 5 fold instead of
relying on one queen that may get mated. Out of the 10 queens if 6 got back and laying then
my split is a successful one. Overwintering these young queens will help a lot on the next year's early Spring time.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

You are not thinking outside the box! 

I doubt I have ever had fewer than 5 cells started. The box above the snelgrove board can be divided to mate two or three queens. I usually use some extra frames with cells to start separate nucs though. The snelgrove system is not where I would go if I were wanting big increase. Its original use was primarily a swarm control measure with requeening or splits as an option.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks, now I'm thinking!


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

replace the snelgrove board with a queen excluder once the queen is laying and you have a two queen hive. That is what I have done this year. If the older queen peters out, its a simple matter to combine. I've had one older queen in this setup that they have tried to supercede a few times. I've made nucs out of those cells as she is a 2 yr survivor tf. I've finally let them have their way.


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