# Screened bottom boards are garbage



## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

I'll agree,Although there is alot on this forum that likes them, I don't.The hives I've lost has been on sbb,the ones with an open bottom may not be as bad I've never used them,But the ones with a floor under the screen,I.M.O.is a carrier for all kinds of pest,The bees get used to them under there & it just makes it easier for them to enter the hive,>>>>Mark


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Nick Calderone from Cornell spoke at the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers spring conference a year and a half back. He said as far as mite infestations go, tests done at Cornell found no difference between screened and non-screened bottom boards. They do provide ventilation to the hive. Some of my hives here are on SBB and some are not. I haven't made up my mind yet.


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## YBCute (Oct 18, 2004)

I have 125 colonies all with screened bottoms but they are all sitting 1 1/2- 2 feet above ground. Zero problems and with our verroa applications during the summer= very little mites. Trays are removed for summer and put back in this month but are kept open 10%. We build our own and use vinyl sheeting for the trays.I'd be trying to track down where the ant nest is and start from there at the source.Feeder bottles dripping?


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

No, no feeder bottes dripping. My hive was on top of a palllet. Now, it's 2 bricks high on top of the pallet until I get my solid BB.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I use SBB with no problems, I find them very useful. I would not use the ones that don't have the sliding trays underneith. You must know how to use them, when to open them, when to close them. Keeping track of mites are mush easier using the trays.

I really don't think that ants provide any real problems for a strong hive. I have ants in some of my hives, but they tend to climb up the sides and into the top where they do not come into contact with the bees. They get in the telescoping covers and sometimes inbetween the top and inner cover where the bees can't get at them.

My problem with ants is them getting into my miller feeders, (where there are no bees), and they carry off my mites from my trays, throwing off my counts.


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## newbee 101 (May 26, 2004)

I have had a sbb on my have since July, and my bees still have all their stores. I cant see ants carry away 70 or 80 lbs of honey, unless their pretty big ants.










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"To bee or not to bee, that is the question"


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I have a little trouble with the concept that a solid bottom board is going to keep ants out. Won't hey just find another way in? This may be another case of, "all beekeeping is local"! I love my slide ot sbbs. My experience means nothing to you since I'm in Ct. 

dickm


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## olddrone (Sep 16, 2004)

Well, here in frigid upstate NY I have 150 hives all on SBB all year, with no trays or anything else during the winter. 

This year I used Formic, and put in a piece of plastic to block the SBB for the 3 weeks the Formic pads were on. Otherwise, they are always open.

I've come to accept Calderone's work that they do not help in Varroa control here in upstate NY, but researchers show definate help further south. I love the benefits of the added ventilation winter and summer.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I looked up "ants" in some books that were printed before screened bottom boards were used, and guess what? Ants are listed as a pest of the beehive. Imagine that. They are not a product or cause of screened bottom boards. There are ways of dealing with them. Some real easy ways. I guess after the solid bottom are on, and the ants are still a problem, then a question or two on how to deal with them would be asked.

As for the conclusion that screened bottom boards make no difference in the mite situation....I find that hard to believe. Most studies have indicated about a 30% reduction in side by side studies. That being with and without screen bottoms. Knowing the amount of mites caught on sticky boards, from a natural drop count, and knowing that they can not crawl back into a hive if fallen through a screen, than how can that not help? This does assume that the drop is of some distance, and the hives are elevated somewhat.

This 30% is not the answer to dealing with mites. Its just a small advantage to the bees, and if added benefits such as ventalation, and the conclusion that hives also produce more honey on screen bottoms, than I can see advantages. I think the mite problem is minimized by little things. SBB, full sun, young queens, good management practices, and so on. SBB is just a small part, but it is a part. 

I really would question the Cornell study. Is this published anywhere? Certainly is a institute of this type making statements such as this, it is printed somewhere????


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

Although the ants are a pest, they are usually controlled by the bees here. The sbbs made them into a problem by opening the hive to them.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

SBBs are a Godsend here in boggy Downeast NC. I installed them, replacing the solid bottom boards, last August and they greatly improved ventilation. My hives are 20" off the ground and I leave the SBBs open all year round. Being located where we are, my hives are a veritable zoo--covered with harvester spiders, lizards, frogs, ants and other unrecognizable (to me) insects, but my girls fend them off without problems. Now if I could just figure out how to get rid of the d--n yellow jackets or somehow find their nest!


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>I really would question the Cornell study. Is this published anywhere? Certainly is a institute of this type making statements such as this, it is printed somewhere????

I dont know if it was published. Nick Calderone mentioned it. Cornells chief apiarist, Peter Borst, has also said they found no difference. Perhaps, if you are in doubt about the accuracy of the statement, you can contact either Dr. Calderone or Peter Borst at Cornell by email. They generally respond to legitimate questions.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

SCREENED BOTTOM BOARDS: We conducted a third year of our screen bottom board study. We are only looking at the effect of screen bottom boards on mite levels and honey production, not on wintering success. We should have this years data analyzed by the spring. So far, we have nothing positive to report with this technique.

Honey Bee Studies at Cornell University 
www.masterbeekeeper.org/pdf/ne2.pdf 

If you dont want to download the pdf version you can type in 'Cornell screened bottom boards' in Google or any search engine for the html version.


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

I guess it is mainly a local problem. I asked several local beekeepers and only 1 out of the 4 said to use them and he lives the furthest away. The rest rest discouraged their use.

This is the opposite reaction of the people who sparked my interest in SBBs this spring. They live only about 150 miles north of my location.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2004)

> Although the ants are a pest, they are usually controlled 
> by the bees here. 

Exactly. A strong colony can defend against attack on multiple
fronts at the same time. 

> The sbbs made them into a problem by opening the hive to them.

The only time I've had problems with ants, I've found a direct
correlation to lousy brood patterns, lousy queens, and therefore, 
weak colonies. 

I've also seen ants make their pheromone trails (which they follow 
like a highway) most often on the outside of the hive, past the brood 
chambers, and entering at a gap or crack between two honey supers. 
Ants will avoid traipsing through the crowded brood chamber if they 
can, for obvious reasons.

But if there was an ant colony directly under the hive, I'd guess 
that all bets are off.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've seen studies that using SBB helps prevent resistance from the miticides. Because many mites are knocked down to the bottom and eventually recover from Apistan or Checkmite and then pass on that resistance. I'm sure it also helps with mehtods such as FGMO as many of those mites also get groomed off, but not killed and with a SBB they fall down and don't manage to get back on a bee.

Also, with a tray on them they are useful for mite counts.

But my main reason for loving them is the added ventilation in the summer. Less swarming, and more honey are nice.


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## clintonbemrose (Oct 23, 2001)

That kind of loss of honey sounds like a case of 1 hive of bees robbing the other. I do not think ants could carry off that much honey. I have used SBB for 3 years and had lots of ants in hives that just made the bees mad but they didn't steel that much honey. I would look for another reason for the loss.
Clint

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Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan
Beekeeping sence 1964


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

I only have 2 hives now. Same problem in both. I don't see fighting in the hive or at the entrance. One hive is very strong in population(even worse for the winter)


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## sugar bandit #2 (Oct 4, 2003)

Hey Ribster,
I'm a hobby beekeeper that would be interested in purchasing (and maybe some others here) some used screened bottom boards from the "for sale" section.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I tossed out every screened bottom board I build after a season of use. Nothing but head akes. Wax moths loved them!!
The only thing they were usefull for was monitoring mite falls before and after applications. Now I use a sticky board insert. Mutch better.

Ian


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

I spent a lot of time observing the ants going in and out of my two hives this summer. There seemed to be three varieties. The smallest were tiny black ants that crawled up the side of the hive to the top and under the cover to get at the bottle of syrup that I have inverted over the inner cover hole. There is no keeping them out since they can essentially get through a pin-prick sized hole. 

The next size was a medium sized black ant. They too seemed focused on the bottle of syrup, but seemed to have more problems since the bees would shoo them away. Instead they would inevitably show up for a few days after I put a new bottle on and drink up any drippings on the top of the inner cover or on the outside of the bottles.

Finally, the largest ants were big and red, about the size of a small staple. I only found them when I had a sticky board in place below my screened bottom board. They were hauling away things like bee legs, dead mites, pollen droppings, etc.

As anecdotal as all this is, I have a feeling that the ants are far from harmful to a hive and may even be beneficial in small numbers. 

Kai


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## Hook (Jun 2, 2002)

I use screened bottom boards, and I have no problems either. I think those mites that do fall down, probably die anyway. Anyway, if your bees are a variety that has a high robbing instict, they will find a weak feral hove, loaded with mites, and bring them home. I think anything that helps reduce mite population is a plus.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Ants = Formic Acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formic_acid 

david


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

The ant has made himself illustrious
through constant industry industrious.
So what?
Would you be calm and placid 
if you were full of formic acid?
----- Ogden Nash ----


[This message has been edited by Dick Allen (edited November 18, 2004).]


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## scottr (Apr 21, 2004)

I have used SBB's for two years and love them. My hives are about 20" off the ground. I only slide in the bottoms when doing a mite count our during the winter. I do see quite a few ants (down here we have fire ants - and they give new definition to MEAN!) but they seem to be cleaning up the various bee parts and what few mites I have that fall out the bottom. 

Don't cause the hives any problems. Based upon a discussion with a fellow bee keeper, I actually left about 40 frames for the ants to clean up after the bees were done. They looked like new in about 4 days. The ants also eat the SHB larva as well.

Each person has his own preferences and managment practices. What works for me might not work for you. I find that working with nature is much easier than trying to fight it.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

here's a study i found that was conducted on the benefits of using a SBB
http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/AV-BOTTOM%20BOARD.pdf 

[This message has been edited by TwT (edited December 05, 2004).]


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## jingle (Dec 10, 2004)

My bees do great in san francisco will screen boards, an extra pesky ant nest is not enough to make me remove all of them of the boards, ants always go up the sides, maybe russian hybrid bees clean ants better? Eric Mussen states that apistan makes the mights fall off six or seven times only to crawl up again, the screen board helps a lot.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have lost seven of seventeen hives on screens in the last few months, from mites, I assume. It does certainly not seem to be a cure all.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

In a long-term study in Brazil, the infestation level of bee colonies in a cool climate at an altitude of 1,400 meters was as much as 10 times as high as that of colonies kept in a warmer region at 300 meters above sea level, even though the two locations were within 150 km of each other and the colonies were headed by sister queens

Moretto, G., L.S. Goncalves, D. De Jong, and M.Z. Bichuette. 1991. The effects of climate and bee race on Varroa jacobsoni Oud. infestations in Brazil. Apidologie 22:197-203. 

Could the use of a screened bottom board, due to better hive ventilation and cooling, actually be beneficial for mite reproduction?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Could the use of a screened bottom board, due to better hive ventilation and cooling, actually be beneficial for mite reproduction?

Studies have shown that higher temperatures in the hive will increase mite fall and lower temperatures will decrease mite fall. Exeptionally hot days cause more mite fall. Close the bottom board and you may up the temperatures a bit from having it open.

I don't know of a study that shows that cooler climates cause more reproduction but cooler climates do cause less mite fall.


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## Jim Young (Aug 31, 2004)

Jean Pierre Chapleau's research, "Experimentation of an Anti-Varroa Screened Bottom Board in the Context of Developing an Integrated Pest Management Strategy for Varroa Infested Honeybees in the Province of Quebec", March 2002, suggests that open screen bottom boards lowered the brood cluster temperature resulting in a 29.2 percent increase in mite population over closed bottom boards.
http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/AV-BOTTOM%20BOARD.pdf 

Chapleau states: Numerous references can be found in scientific literature confirming that lower temperature conditions enhance the development of varroa populations. Ingemar Fries (12) states: () mite population seems to grow faster in cooler climates than in warmer areas () it has been suggested that climatic factors are decisive in determining the mite population growth although the mechanism remains unclear. We can believe that a longer period of time in the capped brood stage resulting from a lower temperature favors an increase in the reproductive rate of the varroa mites population. An increase of time in the capped brood stage enables the young female varroa mites to reach maturity before the bee emerges from its cell. Kraus and Velthuis (14) found that artificially reducing the brood temperature of colonies had the effect of doubling the mite population in comparison with control groups. Their laboratory tests allowed them to determine that 33 C was the optimal temperature for varroa mite reproduction. Kraus and Velthuis (14) suggest that beekeepers adopt practices that aid colonies in maintaining brood temperature at 35 C. The results obtained by Kraus and Velthuis were not available when planning for the 2000 trials as they were published in October of the same year. Reference to the influence of temperature on the rhythm of natural varroa drop can also be found in recent scientific literature. Thomas C. Webster (4) found that this drop is correlated to the average outdoor daytime temperature. J.T. Ambrose (13) also found (2001) that when infested adult bees were exposed to variable temperatures in laboratory conditions, the percentage of varroa mites falling from the bees increased with the elevation of the ambient temperature. Here again we can deduce that the brood chamber temperature should not be lowered.

4. Webster, T.C., Thacker, E.M., et Vorisek, F.E., Live Varroa jacobsoni Fallen from Honey Bee Colonies, Apiculture and Social Insects, (2000)

12. Fries, Ingemar, Varian in Cold Climates: Population Dynamics, Biotechnical Control and Organic Acids, in Living with Varian, 1993, pp 37-48

13. Tabor, K.L., et Ambrose, J.T., The use of Heat Treatment for the Control of the Honey Bee Mite, American Bee Journal, vol 141, no 10,(2001), pp 733-736

14. Kraus, B. et Velthuis, H.H., The impact of Temperature Gradients in the Brood Nest of Honeybees on Reproduction of Varroa jacobsoni (abstract #38), in Abstracts from the 2nd International Conference on Africanized Honey Bees and Bee Mites, American Bee Journal, vol 140, no 10,(2000), p 827


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>I don't know of a study that shows that cooler climates cause more reproduction....

There are some citations listed in both Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases and Mites of the Honey Bee


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My mistake. You've reminded me. I have seen some.

Of course my climate is what I have the least control over.


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