# What to tell newbees



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I'm coordinating a bee school here in Maine that starts in February. I'm wondering how I should handle questions about top bar hives. I have no experience with them - although I plan to construct 1 and see how it goes this summer.

Please, I am not trying to start a flame war here. Not too far away is a company selling a tbh in kit form for lots of money. At a local bee club meeting (where everyone has traditional equipment) I heard that top bar hives in our area don't work - and that the bees failed to over winter for the people who've tried them (100% failure, last two winters). The statement made at the meeting is (around here) bees will move up to get to honey stores, not necessarily side to side.

I realize that while there is an upsurge in tbh interest, the principals behind tbh are anything but new. For a new beekeeper the big plus would be the lower entry cost - especially if they build their own tbh from scratch and fill it with a collected swarm. It fits too with the beek who is primarily interested in pollination.

But the bees reportedly not making it through the winter is a huge issue for me. Yet I know from reading on this site that people (like MB) successfully keep bees in tbh in some very cold places. Is it more of a question of keeping bees alive in a tbh in colder areas is challenging? And if so, how might that be explained to the new beek attending their first bee school?

A knowledgeable beekeeper who has both conventional and tbh told me in a private e-mail that he/she thinks tbh are more difficult to manage and aren't something a new beekeeper should mess with.

I'm stuck in the position of trying to be a resource to students who indicate they want to go with a tbh. Our course costs $80 and I've already had 1 person shy off because of the price. I'd love to be confidently able to suggest tbh as a (more) affordable way to start out. But I'm not convinced yet.

Please let me know what your experiences with tbh have been like. And also what kinds of information you wish had been presented about them in your local bee school.

Thanks!


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

I will setting up my first KTBH's in our breeding yard this spring. I have done an extensive amount of studying top bar hives this past year, both horizontal and vertical.

There is no actual fact to the statement that bees necessarily prefer to move up and down. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that bees will move up and down or side to side. This has been observed in 'natural' hives adopted by bees and discovered by people in wooded areas or otherwise in which bees successfully live in a horizontal log or in the roof of a porch, between floorboards, or some similar construction.

It seems most agreement on the side to side discussion is in starting the bees from an end entrance (or a top entrance near an end) thus allowing the bees only one direction of movement. as opposed to letting them try to determine on their own whether to move left or right.

In terms of heat management, what I have seen the most consensus on is using wood and colors that absorb heat i the winter and that are not too thin walled. The most common I have seen of so far is the 'common' lumber that is 1X dimension (actually measuring in 3/4 inch thickness) at minimum.

A decent windbreak is one of the most often recommended measures of blocking the coldest winds of winter from the hive.

I'm not trying to tell you things you likely already know, but I just want to put what I have to offer in one post.

I have read and seen of several Scandinavian and German beekeepers with top bars hives in areas that are at least as far north as Maine and subject to similar winter conditions. They report successful wintering of horizontal top bar hives in my conversations with them.

Big Bear


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Having lived in Maine for years myself, I know that it's got both long periods of deep cold (like -5 F or -20 C) and, at least for a lot of the coastal areas, it has a lot of moisture.

Here in Nova Scotia, we've got the moisture, but we don't get the long stretches of deep cold as often.

From my own research (as someone getting ready to try TBH's) I get the sense that, although they are an old technology, they are relatively new to popularity here in North America.

There's also the fact that TBH's are seen as competing technology to a number of established businesses, and they are also seen as a 'new' product for people to cash in on. The market interests tend to skew the information we do have to some degree I believe.

One thing is sure. There is WAY more information, equipment and available expertise out there for Langstroth beekeeping.

I am interested in the TBH because I can build it fairly easily, I can mess around with design ideas for hives easily, I really only want a small number of colonies, and I'm not really interested in 'production' of anything other than enjoyment and challenge.


Adam


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Everything I know about TBH, I learned here or through sites linked from here.

Last winter I took the 12 week bee course offered by the Western Maine Beekeepers and can't recall the subject coming up. It's completely understandable though, even though I'm interested in the subject. Having taken the course (after a 20 year lay-off from bees) I feel I am better situated to experiment with top bars while increasing my number of Langs. 

I'm planning on building a top bar hive over the winter, as well as trying a long Lang hive. 

I hate to steer people away from local businesses, but advise your students to use the money that the high-priced local TBH producer charges and buy a quality table saw and build dozens of hives from scrap wood for free. That's one of the attractions of TBHs, the fact that it can be built for peanuts. Absolutely no reason to spend far more than a complete Lang hive, piled high with supers would cost.

I'm using this link as my guide in building the TBH: How to Build a Top Bar Hive. Look under the free downloads section at the Biobees site.

Wayne


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

The top bar hive plans on Micheal Bush's website are good plans and cost effective. 

bush top bar hive

Big Bear


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

Another plus is storage, langs need oodles of storage space for a few hives, tbh needs almost non, not a big deal for people with barns but can be troublesome for less rural residents.

Sam.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

When it comes to buying hives.

I posted some time ago at how expensive I felt some hives are sold at. I have had time to think it over a bit.

I think I over reacted a bit, mostly because I am notoriously cheap.

I still have a hard time seeing several hundred dollars for an un assembled kit when even a 'full blown' Langstroth hive could be purchased and shipped assembled for less.

Having said that, I build them myself, so I am able to have a hive for the cost of the material and my time.

I do realize that others may not have the time, tools, interest or experience to build their own hives, regardless of how much less it can cost.

I will still always have my first suggestion be to build it yourself. it costs less, it is built to the specifications you desire, you know what materials are put into it, a sense of 'pride' and accomplishment for having done it yourself, the list goes on.

In the event of not, for whatever reason, being able to build it yourself, be a conservative shopper. Know what you want, do some homework and compare the offerings of several vendors before you buy. Plus, it never hurts to check out your local bee clubs and associations, some members may be willing to build a hive for you for the cost of materials and a six pack ( of root beer) or something, still saving you on the cost of shipping if nothing else.

Any money you save on the cost of hives is money that can go toward other things. Like buying jars to sell honey in.

Big Bear


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'd just tell them what you know and be honest about what you don't know and if they are interested point them to some good web sites.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Thanks Michael - your response is right on target (as usual).


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## LenInNorCal (Feb 28, 2009)

Andrew Dewey said:


> Thanks Michael - your response is right on target (as usual).


I guess in cold country one doesn't waste time talking a lot of words. He does shoot it straight.

I am new and have had both langs & TBH for going on 2 years. I found out that one REALLY has to know bees to manage a TBH. There's a lot of info and practicality with langs, standardization and help, along with a wide support system. It's a narrow bandwidth on TBH. Helpers can come and say 'this and that' on langs.....I found out that I don't think like a bee yet, so I plan to build more langs, learn more about bees and go slow on the "new" stuff. Although the TBH is the consistently strongest hive (out of 4) in this mild 38* winter right now! But then I lost another TBH about 3 weeks ago, so.......


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

One thing about TBH that really needs to be emphasized - t*he bees are extremely prone to swarming*. Michael Bush points this out several times on his pages on TBH. I've had several other experienced TBH beekeepers also describe the same. In my own experience, I have never had a colony that was started from a swarm produce another swarm in that first year - except in the TBH.

Swarming can cause real problems in urban/suburban settings. New beekeepers are often unable to recognize the signs of a colony preparing to swarm even in standard equipment. A good strong TBH will have swarm cells hidden on the most populated frames - the ones that are just covered in bees and that the new beekeeper will find confusing and possibly intimidating. 

I tell my students that top bar hives are not for beginners. For those beginners that insist on going with TBH, I strongly recommend having a plan for swarming (either enough equipment to hive a swarm or a connection with a local club so the beekeeper can capture the swarm and quickly find it a home with another beekeeper.) 

Swarming in urban and suburban setting can lead to beekeeping ordinances. That is something we all want to avoid.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

One would think having a plan for swarming would be a good idea regardless of the type of hive. I have worked plenty of lang hives and I have had plenty of those produce swarms. Some multiple swarms.

I cannot say anything with any veracity on Top Bar hives as this will be my first season coming up using them. I have tried to research and study others experience as much as possible to familiarize myself with the particulars specific to them though.

I think it is in any beekeepers best interest to have a "swarm plan" and not just top bar users or beginners.

I do agree that in any beekeeping situation, especially those one is new to, keep the levels of awareness high. until one is personally familiarized with something new to them, it's best not to let down one's guard.

Big Bear


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have seen first year packages swarm on both top bar hives and Langstroth hives. Especially when a newbee feeds constantly from when they install them until they swarm, which is often when they are quite small and not developed enough to swarm.

I've never thought of swarming as a really bad outcome. It's an outcome I'd prefer to avoid, but I don't see it as a problem if I don't manage to avoid it. Newbees will probably mess up and have them swarm once before they even start to realize the issues involved. Does it matter if it's from a TBH or a Langstroth?


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

For me, swarming is a desired outcome, I would rather not lose the swarm is all and prefer to hive them. That is my idea of a swarm plan, how best to hive as many of the swarms that are produced.

Big Bear


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

I managed to get both my hives to swarm this year, since I was a newbe, had em in 1 deep box trying to get them to move into the tbh, well guess what? They swarmed, now I have 5 hives 


Sam.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Now I know what to do. Since Erin is going to be one of our teachers, I'll just have the students save their top bar questions for her!


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

LenInNorCal - Thank you.

I started with a Beemax polystyrene hive beginner kit here in SE PA and scoffed at a woman with snobby nose preference to her all natural top bar hives. We were both wrong for the right reasons.

I'm starting my journey to top bar hives when the novelty of comb honey ran its course and the cost of an extractor made store bought honey attractive. Last year I found Michael and Dennis's crush and strain extractors and stumbled upon their top bar hives. I also can't bear to part with a swarm, ran out of room for more hives in the back yard, regret the cost of a new Lang to house them and had a pile of scrap from our karate program.

For me it started with money, but from an urban perspective and recent world wide challenges, I see the potential for great benefit and lots of fun for all.

The December Bee Culture has an article by Melanie Kirby that describes her experience with top bar hives in Paraguay while serving in the US Peace Corps. Her constraint was no money and only African Hybrid bees. Lots to learn and I hoping we hear more from her.

My scrap wood idea is evolving to a configuration that makes minimal cuts on standard lumber. Since the two remaining building supply chains often offer custom cutting at a quarter a cut, I'm hoping a simple configuration may bridge the gap between interest and cost.

My pipe dream is to assemble the knowledge of our community into a short simple "how to" and create an alternative to the way the most beeks get their start. Maybe even create a hands on work shop.

Please keep us posted on your success.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

Andrew Dewey - Sorry, I intended to thank you but copy/pasted wrong.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

You have plenty of time to study up there are many of us still researching TBH's and some of the developments are pretty interesting.


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