# stirring the lees and staggered nutrient addition



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

stirring the lees and staggered nutrient addition are two of the meading making techniques for which opinions seem to vary quite a bit.

i would be interested in what our experienced mead makers here on the forum think about them.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Step feeding nutrient and fermentables can really jack up your ACB. Just be careful what yeast you use as some varieties lees produce some nasty esters. With high ACB comes long aging requirements. The premium section of gotmead.com would connect you with the information you seek.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

While some mead recipes will benefit from feeding, I think it has gone to the extreme. I am not very experienced making mead but, I have been brewing beer, wine, cider off and on for over 40 years. It's fun and enjoyable at my level. I want to keep it that way, so avoid recipes that call for feeding and especially step feeding. But if you want to take it to the next level, it is worthwhile to learn when it is actually necessary. It seems like most everyone is promoting it for brews already packed with nutrients. I have made the same meads without nutrients successfully many times. Getting a commission may have something to do with it. J


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Vance G said:


> Step feeding nutrient and fermentables can really jack up your ACB.


many thanks for the reply vg. i am not familiar with the term 'acb', and wasn't able to find it online. what does that stand for?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Fivej said:


> Getting a commission may have something to do with it.


's what i'm talkin' about.


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## ShelleyStuart (Jan 4, 2010)

i've tried step feeding, but didn't find the rigor worth the result. The result wasn't bad, it just wasn't better enough to persuade me to give up my casual meadmaking preference.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks for the reply shelley. i visited your websites, very nice!

striking the balance between labor input and quality of final product is important to me also, and i anticipate doing so is going to involve a lot more experience than i can glean from these first batches.  

do you have an opinion on stirring the lees?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

senile old man meant alcohol by volume ABV My humble apology. Personally I ideally rack or syphon off the lees often as lees to me are decomposing things. Its different if you want that sherry taste.


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## ShelleyStuart (Jan 4, 2010)

squarepeg said:


> striking the balance between labor input and quality of final product is important to me also, and i anticipate doing so is going to involve a lot more experience than i can glean from these first batches.
> 
> do you have an opinion on stirring the lees?


It may also depend on how sensitive your palate is (I simply can't taste some subtleties others say they can) and if you're doing this for profit or for your own imbibement.

I aerate well while the mead is in primary to keep the oxygen high and CO2 low. After I rack to secondary I let it sit. I'll rack off the lees (sometimes more than once as it ages depending on the batch) but after the primary fermentation I'm not stirring any lees into the ferment.

Do a couple of side-by-side one gallong batches. Same recipe, same yeast, but different processes. See what you like drinking and doing best!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ShelleyStuart said:


> I aerate well while the mead is in primary to keep the oxygen high and CO2 low. After I rack to secondary I let it sit. I'll rack off the lees (sometimes more than once as it ages depending on the batch) but after the primary fermentation I'm not stirring any lees into the ferment.


understood shelly and thanks again!

that is what i have decided to do with my first batches.

today is day 8 on the elderberry and i am no longer able to liberate dissolved co2 by vigorous stirring. there is now about a half inch of lees after settling. i am going to let it set overnite, go ahead and rack into the secondary vessel tomorrow, and not stir again except perhaps a gentle stir a day or so before bottling to liberate any residual dissolved co2.

the traditional is day 7 today, still degassing some with stirring, but much less that at first. there is hardly any lees there. i'm thinking once degassing is over i'll go ahead and rack it.

so far so good i think. both are smelling awfully nice.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

W


ShelleyStuart said:


> i've tried step feeding, but didn't find the rigor worth the result. The result wasn't bad, it just wasn't better enough to persuade me to give up my casual meadmaking preference.


 Bingo. What I was trying to say with fewer words. J


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Helpful hint: take a reading before you rack. This will tell to if it's close to being done or whether it has stalled. At this point, you can still save a stalled mead and this is when feeding is totally justified. Note the gravity reading. If it is the same 10 days later, it is stable and safe to bottle. J


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yes! i can almost tell by looking at it, (the must is bubbling nicely), as well as at the airlock, (a bubble every second or two), that i don't think it has stalled. but i am very curious to see what the difference in sg is after 9 days, and whether or not i am at one third to one half of the sugar being coverted to alcohol as general wisdom suggests is a good time for racking into the secondary. thanks again 5j!

if the goal is to get off to a strong and fast primary fermentation, then the best i can tell i have accomplished that. very thankful for what i am seeing and smelling so far. will report the sg readings for the thread.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I stagger the nutrients, but I have a simplified schedule for it. 

Pitch yeast rehydrated with GoFerm. Degas and add 1/3 of the nutrients at 24, 48, and 72 hours. Done.


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## ShelleyStuart (Jan 4, 2010)

bushpilot said:


> I stagger the nutrients, but I have a simplified schedule for it.
> 
> Pitch yeast rehydrated with GoFerm. Degas and add 1/3 of the nutrients at 24, 48, and 72 hours. Done.


That's a plan that would work for me.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I've been homebrewing beer, mead and wine since '91 and a certified Judge since '95. Not bragging, but it does help to tell you my background since I'm otherwise a newbee here. 

@bushpilot's plan is a good one and I use it a lot. 71B is a frequent flier for my meads. If you are brand new to mead making and you can reasonably follow a more scientific recipe, I would use Bray's One Month Mead (BOMM) process. It's more expensive, but not as expensive as wasting good honey.

If you wonder why I even bring it up if I say I like the way bushpilot mentions, my decision point is my starting point: For a quick "any honey" mead, I use the BOMM method. When I made my last 5-gallon batch of Raspberry Blossom Honey still mead, I used the staggered nutrient method. Both of them are as "drinkable" as the other after a month, but I don't consider any mead drinkable until after six moths. If you care enough to do it right, care enough to wait.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks lee. have been reading up on bray's bomm method. thinking about giving it a go with some lower abv (7%) mead and carbonating it in a kegerator. getting the chilled wyeast 1388 is the tricky (and expensive) part in my location. i wonder how substituting 71b would change the end result?


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## Knoxville1 (8 mo ago)

I used to make a lot of mead. I got frustrated with it because it would burn my throat and just was unpleasant. Everyone else was talking about how great theirs was after a week. So I quit making it. I have some now that's aged seven years and now finally it is delightful. So... don't get frustrated if it isn't good upfront. Set it aside and forget about it for a few years. They say elderberry gets really good around ten years.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

squarepeg said:


> thanks lee. have been reading up on bray's bomm method. thinking about giving it a go with some lower abv (7%) mead and carbonating it in a kegerator. getting the chilled wyeast 1388 is the tricky (and expensive) part in my location. i wonder how substituting 71b would change the end result?


A 7% mead is not going to stress anything, so your options open up. 71B is a good choice. If you are going to do 5g then I would use two packets, for a gallon, 1/2 a packet is more than enough. I would absitively, posilutely rehydrate with GoFerm. At 7% you can do a simple half and half nutrient addition (Fermaid K) at 66% and 33% gravity. For me, that's 24 hours after fermentation starts, and ~72 hrs after it starts. I also use a Tilt Hydrometer and you'd have to pry that from my cold, dead hands before I gave up that tool. 

One secret I use is a clarifying agent - two of them actually: SUPER-KLEER KC is a one-two punch of Kieselsohl and Chitosan. It's packaged for 5 gallons, so again if you are doing one it will take some swizzling. Mead will be absolutely clear a day or so after using this agent. It doesn't age the mead faster of course, but it makes it ready to bottle sooner.

To the original question, I never stir the lees. It raises too many things in suspension that negatively impact the taste and will just take that much longer to settle out. The yeast that are working are in suspension, the ones that are dying are in the lees. Leave them there. If your fermentation is so slow you need to agitate the fermenter, you've made a mistake up front with your yeast and you're likely not going to recover.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

For 9% or less, I just put the nutrients (Fermaid K or dap) in at 12-24 hours, or Fermaid O at pitch.

I like to put bentonite dry in primary. Doing that, I find I don't need to add anything later to clarify.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

all great info lee, many thanks. yes, will be using go-ferm going forward. for nutrients and engergizer i used the ld carlson products that were available at the 'closest' brew shop, (over an hour away and limted supplies as they are primarily a beverage retailer), but considering switching to fermaid o as it seems to be the rage on all the boards. (your thoughts?)

back to my original batches made with the 22% honey salvaged from my queenless hives, which are both now at 2 months old...

i really deserve to have problems with these because: i did not have go-ferm, (used about a half cup of raisins), did not understand nutrients and staggering, (elderberry didn't get nutrient or engergizer until primary fermentation was well underway, traditional got most of nutrient up front, with more nutrient and energizer after primary was well underway).

*the traditional* - stablilized, sulphited, and back-sweetened with 1.5 lbs of table honey which moved sg from .994 to 1.005; ph was brought down to 3.32 from 4.5 using acid blend; color is nice and represents the table honey; the back-sweetening changed the clarity from crystal (used bentonite, switching to super-kleer for future batches after further reading and your recommendation) to very slightly cloudy, (considering cold crashing outdoors once the temps here allow for that); the aroma and taste seem pretty good to my naive nose and tongue, with maybe just a little more acid than sweetness, and still a little 'youngness' present.

*the elderberry* - added 2.5 lbs of white sugar at two weeks after discovering my error in taking og, bringing 'adjusted' og to 1.122; sg is now 1.008; ph is 3.5 brought down from 4.25 with acid blend; color is beautiful and represents elderberry jam; clarity is excellent following bentonite; sulfited to 50 ppm, wine diamonds are collecting at the bottom; aroma is wonderful; taste is a little young and acidic very similar to the traditional, but again pretty nice to my untrained tongue; there is still a little fermentation going on, which may be from my improper (late) addition of nutrients, or perhaps spontaneous mlf.

so at this point i'm thinking maybe i got lucky and/or the 71b is having mercy on me.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

bushpilot said:


> I like to put bentonite dry in primary. Doing that, I find I don't need to add anything later to clarify.


I've never used bentonite dry, that's a new one on me. Bentonite does work very well, and I have used it in the past. I received some of the Super-Kleer as a non-compensated reviewer, and I stuck with it. Generally speaking, things that have to sit for a while get forgotten, whereas if I use the Super-Kleer it clears _very_ quickly and I don't forget what I have in progress.


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## Knoxville1 (8 mo ago)

Maybe I missed it, but how much elderberries did you use? Were they dried or fresh?


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

squarepeg said:


> considering switching to fermaid o as it seems to be the rage on all the boards. (your thoughts?)


I have used botk Fermaid K and O. I know the cool kids are all using O (organic). My palate is getting older but I think I still do a pretty good job of judging. I cannot tell the difference between a mead make with K vs O. I can tell the difference when it ferments, however, and the K is much more vigorous. A vigorous ferment is almost always more desirable, so I go with the K. Unless you have a strong desire to be able to say the mead is "organic" (and then we have to question the source of the yeast) I recommend the K for you as well.



squarepeg said:


> i really deserve to have problems with these because: i did not have go-ferm, (used about a half cup of raisins), did not understand nutrients and staggering, (elderberry didn't get nutrient or engergizer until primary fermentation was well underway, traditional got most of nutrient up front, with more nutrient and energizer after primary was well underway).


Back when we didn't know better, and everyone was sipping the Kool Aide and taking Charlie Papazian's Barkshack Ginger Mead as the pinnacle of mead success, we didn't do all that fancy stuff. It also took a year or more for a mead to mellow sufficiently. I think your mead will be fine, it will just take longer to mellow, suppress the nasty flavors (technical term) and enhance the desirable ones.



squarepeg said:


> the back-sweetening changed the clarity from crystal (used bentonite, switching to super-kleer for future batches after further reading and your recommendation) to very slightly cloudy


You probably re-started the yeast. Even a crystal-clear mead will have a few viable cells here and there and they will happily devour what you give them. While it's more chancy, I prefer to target residual sweetness with judicious yeast and OG choices. Sulfiting and then back-sweetening will work, I sometimes use Potassium Benzoate instead because I suspect sulfites trigger migraines for me. It absolutely has nothing to do with drinking too much mead! I use benzoate in ciders (R2 yeast is my go-to for Cider) too when I have to back-sweeten and it does an excellent job of suppressing the yeast. Just another variable to play with for you.



squarepeg said:


> so at this point i'm thinking maybe i got lucky and/or the 71b is having mercy on me.


The 71B is a secret weapon! It causes/enhances more roundness in the palate, and presents quite a bit of floral characteristics - perfect for a mead.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Knoxville1 said:


> Maybe I missed it, but how much elderberries did you use? Were they dried or fresh?


one gallon of fresh wild elderberries that i picked and destemmed. more about the batches here:









10 gallons of 22% water content honey from queenless hives


as luck would have it the elderberries that grow wild on our farm as well as up and down the country roads around here are ready for pickin' a light bulb went off and so i gathered up a couple of 5 gallon buckets of some really nice clusters yesterday evening. anyone here having experience...




www.beesource.com


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Lee Bussy said:


> I have used botk Fermaid K and O...


thanks again for all the valuable info lee.

'organic' isn't ultra important to me. i notice on the tonsa 3.0 calculator that twice as much "o" is needed compared to "k" all other things being equal.

your thoughts on the calculator?









TOSNA CALCULATOR | Mead Made Right







www.meadmaderight.com


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I've used the calculator. I think I decided using it was too much work for me since I have a spreadsheet I use. You can download it here if you would like to play with it.

The spreadsheet indicates two doses, one at start of fermentation and one at 1/3 depletion. That works too but "start" is actually when it starts fermenting, not when you start the batch.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Good to hear its working out Squarepeg. Lots of posts and that's good to see. Just cracked open a session mead with a friend that stopped by.
For what its worth, I have never needed a clarifying agent for a mead, except time. For Melomels, more time. Usually cold crashing takes care of cysers and wines, although I did have to use Sparkolloid on an apple wine that would not clear. Normally would not care about haze, but it's a sparkling wine for New Years. J


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

bump


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Gray Goose said:


> bump


cheers gg!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

squarepeg said:


> cheers gg!


been wanting to make mead
have a book now to read, will get it done in the deer blind soon.
some of those old jars of honey and some dead out honey can be used to get some mead made.

I made Wine and Shine, in the past and enjoyed it so I am creeping up on trying mead.

wanted to get the updates on this thread.

was fun watching the sisters on the Waltons with the "secret recipe" so onward.

GG


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ah, the recipe. papa would have been proud.

here's a link to an interesting method that yields drinkable mead without having to let it age so long:






Bray's One Month Mead


I've developed a recipe for mead that is clear and delicious with no off flavours in less than one month. It was found during the Belgian Yeast Ale Experiment I posted over at gotmead.com. I'll post the 1 & 5 gallon recipes. Bray's One Month Mead aka "the BOMM" - 1 gallon No heat method...




www.homebrewtalk.com


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Try making a cyser. For me it is the simplest mead style to make good, and is about perfect at about 9-10% abv. With a very basic nutrient schedule I find them quite drinkable in less than 6 months. Even better carbonated (bottle conditioned).


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Haven't tried the Bray's recipe, but I don't understand how it is really different from a standard mead. Have you made it?
Higher abv meads will always taste better with age. If I want something fast that is clear and crisp, I make a session ( 5% abv) mead and bottle condition it. It can be done in 30 days. It's a great summer drink. J


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Fivej said:


> Haven't tried the Bray's recipe, but I don't understand how it is really different from a standard mead. Have you made it?


the main differences are the wyeast 1388 (no substitutions) and potassium (bi)carbonate for ph buffering. the recipe and methodology has evolved somewhat over the almost 10 years since bray first introduced the concept, and the latest rendition is here:



Denard Brewing



i've not tried it yet, but plan to give it a shot when my carboys become available.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

more info about bray's rationale here:



Denard Brewing


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Hey Square, did you have any of your mead on Thanksgiving? 
We had some session mead to start, some apple wine with dinner and apple jack and mango habanero cyser for a nightcap. J


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

probabaly should have, but no. added a little tannin blend a couple of weeks ago and letting it age a bit longer.

sounds like you had all the bases covered, i bet it was great!


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Got good reviews, but company could have been being polite. All tasted good to me. J


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## limberwulf (1 mo ago)

Most of my meads are 14-15% abv. Hitting those numbers absolutely requires nutrients. I actually do a nutrient add initially, with enough honey to achieve 10% abv, then after a week, I add enough honey and water to achieve a total sugar amount to hit 15%, and I do a second addition of nutrients then. Small batches (3 gallon or less) probably don't have to have yeast nutrition because there is typically some in the yeast batch, especially liquid yeast. Honey lacks the nutrients of malt or juice, so larger batches will often get stuck without added nutrients.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

@limberwulf the staggered honey additions are now thought of as "old school." I say that; being a home brewer and winemaker for longer than some people here have been alive and with some considerable tongue in cheek.

I like to think I am not too old to try new things, so I have embraced the TOSNA+ regimens (including BOMM) and I have had good luck up to a pretty high ABV without feeding the must. The only thing for which I stagger sugar/fruit additions is Skeeter Pee and that is just for the lemon juice.

If you have some time, give it a shot. It's bound to be an interesting experiment for you, either way.


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## limberwulf (1 mo ago)

Yes, I learned the hard way about adding lemon later, lol. I started doing the 2 stage add as a way of standardizing, as it gives me a base mead that then I can add my other flavors, juices, etc in the second stage. I think it is working better because. Up til now, I was under pitching yeast (to save money) and the lower original gravity took some stress off the yeast. Now that we are switching to Conicals, we can recapture yeast and step up our starting yeast quantity, which may eliminate the need for 2 stage sugar additions. I will check out the tosna refinement, thank you for that, I look forward to trying it.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

If you are in a conical, I suspect you're making a bit more than I am. I have been really happy with dry yeasts lately, after culturing and storing my own for a long time. But, I will typically use 10-15g of dry yeast per 5g batch, and rehydrate with GoFerm. Honey is not a great nutrient, so I always use it, but I find the ferment cleaner when staggering additions. The science behind BOMM is worth a read, and take from it what you need.


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