# Top Bar Hive plan review



## onestory (May 30, 2016)

Please critique these plans for my first top bar hive.

Thank you!


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Bevel the edges. I think ~15 degrees works.
Make the bottom wider. I use a full 1x12 on the bottom. That'd make your number "5.5" change to ~ 3.375
I'll measure my top bar hive and give you some better dimensions.


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## onestory (May 30, 2016)

aunt betty said:


> Bevel the edges. I think ~15 degrees works.
> Make the bottom wider. I use a full 1x12 on the bottom. That'd make your number "5.5" change to ~ 3.375
> I'll measure my top bar hive and give you some better dimensions.


Thank you, Aunt Betty

Which edges are you referring to for the bevels?

The 5.5" distance was to create a 120 degree side wall for stronger combs. What is your experience with a less angled side? Are the combs nice and strong when handling them...It's REAL HOT and HUMID in south Louisiana...? What else should I consider?
If you were using a screened bottom with no wood, would you still make the bottom that wide?

Thanks again. I'm going to be building more of these in the future and I'd like to get it right to begin with.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The sides are beveled. they end up being around 11 inches once you bevel a 1x12.







The bottom is 11.25 inches wide. I used a piece of plywood on the nuc but my tops bars are identical dimensions.







The depth is 11.25 inches







Inside width (Inside dimension is ~18.25 inches








Hope this helps. I made the thing as large as possible with the least amount of wasted wood.

My top bar hives look like this. The one on the right with the white cedar shingle roof.


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## onestory (May 30, 2016)

NICE! Great photos!

I realize now that our measurements will already be different because I'm using 2x lumber and you used 1x lumber.

I happen to already have lots of old 2x lumber so that's what I'm using. FREE!!!  My hives will be heavier but the thicker wood should help with longevity and other issues.


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm

Easiest plans out there. Cut to length, nail together or screw ha... Top bar hives are meant to be practical and cheap imho. If you have boards you are already on the right track. If you really wanna be cheap emai les crowder or look at Wyatt magnum book. Les has used 50 gal blue water barrels cut in half for hives. He sent me plans they are pretty interesting. Also Wyatt user sunflower stalks and cat tail sticks to make some hives. Best part about TBH is using resources that you already have imho


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

East Central Illinois gets hot too. Not as long as your state but we have tropical summers and arctic winters. 
There's more than one way to skin a cat and I showed you my YANKEE way. 
Your design is perfect for you.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

That plan will work fine. I'd recommend NOT beveling the top edge of the sides. Leaving a somewhat "pointy" contact area allows the bees to better move out of the way when you are moving bars.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

onestory said:


> View attachment 25543
> 
> 
> Please critique these plans for my first top bar hive.
> ...


I think you need a way to close the bottom up. I know screened bottoms can be controversial, but I think you're going to want a way to close it up at times (when first hiving, or when it gets occasionally cold down there).

If you don't want to make the bottom 12 inches across, you might want to make it 10 inches (your width is about 8 inches). 

Take my thoughts with a large grain of salt, as I'm just building my own (I'm building mine based basically on Wyatt Mangum's pattern). I thought of doing a screened bottom, but decided against it. 

Good luck!


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## onestory (May 30, 2016)

Good help so far....THANKS!

What do you think about my pointy top bars? 

Any particular angle I should be using?


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## scottie9656 (May 11, 2015)

I to would reconsider the screened bottom. My first package absconded because of one. I closed it off with the second package one and had no problems but then it gave the small hive beetles a place to hide so I removed it and I haven't had SHB's since.


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## onestory (May 30, 2016)

scottie9656 said:


> I to would reconsider the screened bottom. My first package absconded because of one. I closed it off with the second package one and had no problems but then it gave the small hive beetles a place to hide so I removed it and I haven't had SHB's since.


Hmmmm.... I'm not sure what to do about the bottom. I've read too many positives and negatives. I could always block all or part of the screen with a piece of wood or coroplast but that doesn't solve the question of when and how much to block the screen. 

I think that, if I could be comfortable with another form of ventilation, I wouldn't put a screen at all.

What are your thoughts on alternate forms of ventilation / humidity management for top bar hives? Keep in mind that I'm not going to be out there "checking on the bees" and second guessing what / when / how much to close the vents. ...for me it's gonna be set it and forget it.... ....give the bees options and let THEM control these issues, if that is possible.


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## scottie9656 (May 11, 2015)

I used a hinged bottom until I took the screen off completely. I didn't use any kind of ventilation last year with no problems. This is only my second year so I'm not sure if extra ventilation would help or not. I know some people drill holes in the last bar and put screen over them and the bees will close off what they don't want.


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## scottie9656 (May 11, 2015)

chuckreburn what size bars do you use? I use 17' bars and use a 1x12's for the side and 1x8" for the bottom. A full comb of brood or honey gets real heavy. Do you think he would have problems with comb collapse during our hot humid summers.


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## onestory (May 30, 2016)

scottie9656 said:


> I used a hinged bottom until I took the screen off completely. I didn't use any kind of ventilation last year with no problems. This is only my second year so I'm not sure if extra ventilation would help or not. I know some people drill holes in the last bar and put screen over them and the bees will close off what they don't want.


As far as ventilation goes, that sounds like a good plan. As far as parasites go, It seems to me that all of that open area is as much an invitation as a deterrent. I have two Langstroth hives with screened bottoms and I can smell the honey from a few feet away. If I can smell it, everything else can.


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## onestory (May 30, 2016)

scottie9656 said:


> chuckreburn what size bars do you use? I use 17' bars and use a 1x12's for the side and 1x8" for the bottom. A full comb of brood or honey gets real heavy. Do you think he would have problems with comb collapse during our hot humid summers.


Click on the photo in the top post for a diagram and tell me what you think.


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## onestory (May 30, 2016)

crmauch said:


> I think you need a way to close the bottom up. I know screened bottoms can be controversial, but I think you're going to want a way to close it up at times (when first hiving, or when it gets occasionally cold down there).
> 
> If you don't want to make the bottom 12 inches across, you might want to make it 10 inches (your width is about 8 inches).
> 
> ...


Do you have Wyatt Mangum's book? If so, what does he recommend?


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

onestory said:


> Do you have Wyatt Mangum's book? If so, what does he recommend?


Although I eventually want to eventually purchase it, I got it through Interlibrary loan at my local library.

I liked his book as his climate (originally NC now VA) was the closest to mine (SE PA) and he was what I guess would be a 'sideliner' (ran I *think* 200 pollination hives). His design is fairly deep, but I think narrow enough (at bottom) that it possibly reduces the risk of comb breakage (these are assumptions on my part). I also decided early on I didn't like any tbh with the entrances in the middle of the sides. He used shaped end boards (He suggests making a wooden template for making all your hives).

I'm pulling this from memory: The top of the end is 17.5 inches (where the bars cross is 17 inches across), the bottom 9 inches and the sides 12 inches. For you in the south, with higher temps (so more chance of comb breakage), you might want a wide but shallower design). But there's tons of designs and anecdotal evidence suggests a Tanzanian style hive has no more chance of side attachment. So choose a design and go with it.


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## onestory (May 30, 2016)

" I also decided early on I didn't like any tbh with the entrances in the middle of the sides."

Please explain why.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

onestory said:


> " I also decided early on I didn't like any tbh with the entrances in the middle of the sides."
> 
> Please explain why.


First all the caveat: I don't yet have any experience, and thus this is all my opinion. Take it for what its worth. When and if I get actual experience, my opinions may change. 

This also may not apply as much to you as you are in the deep south.

My reasoning:
For winter, the colony will go into a cluster. To survive the cluster must be in contact with honey (or food stores). During the winter, the cluster will naturally start at the brood nest, and move along the honey stores. Any gaps in honey stores will spell the death of the colony. If the cluster gets to the end of the hive, it cannot reverse direction or move back to where there are other honey stores.

Bees "tend" to create the brood nest near the entrance to the hive. By having the entrance at one end you already have set the brood nest at one end (so they can move along the honey stores in winter) plus the comb at the other end will tend to be all honey comb. 

I think that follower boards are a good idea to help the bees control the size of the nest that they have to patrol. if you have the entrance in the center, you'll need two follower boards -- why make things more complicated than it has to?

Hemenway, in her book has the main entrance in the middle, and to prep for winter has you move the whole brood nest to one end. Why make things more difficult for yourself? Have the brood nest at the end to begin with.

I also like the idea if you have a large hive and two small colonies, you can put one at each end to aid in thermoregulation in the winter.

Note, I have no problem with Les Crowder's side entrances at each end (he found the bees wouldn't stop using them once they were given that configuration), it's the (typically) 3 holes in the middle I don't like.


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## onestory (May 30, 2016)

Insightful. Thank you.

If I can't decide on the exact entrance when I build, I will make entrances in multiple locations and at larger sizes. That will allow changes in the future without drilling holes while the bees are in residence. Also, an "entrance hole" can become a ventilation hole...and vice versa...

The way I see it - the less openings (cracks, entrances, holes) the better. A top bar hive is gonna leak air through the top anyway and bees only need one entrance. To start, I'm gonna give them one hole - the entrance...then see how it goes.

I'm also considering having a board inside the entrance hole that makes them enter at the top then crawl down before reaching the first comb. I think that will make the hive easier to defend.

Your thoughts?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I like all my TBHs to have a screened bottom with a solid IPM board underneath that is bee tight. I keep diatomaceous earth on the IPM board to kill any worms, beetles or mites that drop through. I've seen too many solid bottom hives that have mites and little wigglies squirming around in the waste material in the hive. Only on large colonies in the summer do I need to take out the IPM board to reduce the heavy bearding. (it scares the neighbors)

And I prefer my entrance holes to be evenly spaced along the long side of the hive. I did a test last year, moving one queen to another full colony in the fall that had an entrance on the short side and visually measured the bee activity in early spring. The colonies with the entrances on the long side in my area built up faster.


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## onestory (May 30, 2016)

I may put screens just in case...so, I don't have to disturb the hive by adding them later. This screen vs no screen issue is a tough one for me. No matter which way, I'm sure to second guess it when I see the bees struggling...even though the problem may have nothing to do with screen vs no screen...


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

You might like this: It is a detailed look at some of Mangum's use of screened bottom boards. From reading this, he's using sticky boards as a way to monitor his hives for varroa and other problems, not for ventilation.

http://www.tbhsbywam.com/screen-floors/


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## onestory (May 30, 2016)

crmauch said:


> First all the caveat: I don't yet have any experience, and thus this is all my opinion. Take it for what its worth. When and if I get actual experience, my opinions may change.
> 
> This also may not apply as much to you as you are in the deep south.
> 
> ...


This makes perfect sense to me. Even in south Louisiana, it can stay cold for a few days at a time. If it's too cold for the bees to move around and explore the whole hive looking for honey, they could die. This fits better with my "Laissez-faire" beekeeping attitude.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

onestory said:


> The way I see it - the less openings (cracks, entrances, holes) the better. A top bar hive is gonna leak air through the top anyway and bees only need one entrance. To start, I'm gonna give them one hole - the entrance...then see how it goes.


Why would it leak air through the top? Wouldn't the bees have it sealed w/ propolis?



onestory said:


> I'm also considering having a board inside the entrance hole that makes them enter at the top then crawl down before reaching the first comb. I think that will make the hive easier to defend.
> 
> Your thoughts?


A vertical shaft that opened up -- couldn't it allow in rain?

I saw something like this online (but of course cannot locate it now), the bees entered horizontally, but to get to the nest had two 90 degree turns -- 90 degrees to go up (and that part was quite narrow) and then 90 degrees to enter the hive. I think it was mouse-proof, and possibly aided the bees in guarding. I decided it was more complicated than I wanted to try to build now.

You might like this: http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/2010/08/wyatt-mangum-on-top-bar-beekeeping.html

I also have a bunch of favorites saved on different top bar designs. If your interested, I'll go through them and PM you their links, or I can post them here if others are interested.


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## onestory (May 30, 2016)

crmauch said:


> Why would it leak air through the top? Wouldn't the bees have it sealed w/ propolis?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess the bees would seal the cracks with propolis eventually. A top bar hive has around 40' of thin cracks at the top. I'm guessing that the air can get through there. 

The vertical area would be inside the hive. I think I saw this method on a diagram from Michael Bush.

Please post the links for everyone to benefit from.

...and thanks again for all your help.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

Top Bar Links:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm

http://www.sustainlife.org/store/be...op-bar-hive/?gclid=CKifxarJp8sCFYFahgodV6EMPQ

http://www.buzzaboutbees.net/support-files/how_to_build_a_tbh.pdf

http://www.cbrp.org/SDBluebirds/PhilChandlerTBHPlans.pdf

http://teca.fao.org/sites/default/files/technology_files/BASIC English Part 5.pdf

http://happyhourtopbar.blogspot.com/2014/04/top-bar-hive-dimensionsplans.html

https://augustcottageapiary.wordpress.com/building-plans-for-a-topbar-hive/

http://happyhourtopbar.blogspot.com/search/label/Construction#uds-search-results

http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/2010/08/wyatt-mangum-on-top-bar-beekeeping.html

http://removeandreplace.com/2014/04/09/how-to-build-your-own-diy-top-bar-beehive/

http://opensourcebeehives.net/

https://beeinformed.org/2014/11/25/top-bar-hives/


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I am in Arkansas, and for ventilation, I make a dummy bar with 3/4" holes (5-6) across the inside length, covered with mesh. I put the bar at the very back next to the follower board. I have a gabled roof, but if someone were using a flat roof, could prop it up to allow air flow. Works well.


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## LittleByLittle (Dec 8, 2015)

ruthiesbees said:


> I like all my TBHs to have a screened bottom with a solid IPM board underneath that is bee tight. I keep diatomaceous earth on the IPM board to kill any worms, beetles or mites that drop through. I've seen too many solid bottom hives that have mites and little wigglies squirming around in the waste material in the hive. Only on large colonies in the summer do I need to take out the IPM board to reduce the heavy bearding. (it scares the neighbors)
> 
> And I prefer my entrance holes to be evenly spaced along the long side of the hive. I did a test last year, moving one queen to another full colony in the fall that had an entrance on the short side and visually measured the bee activity in early spring. The colonies with the entrances on the long side in my area built up faster.


Where do you get/how do you prefer to make your solid IPM boards?


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## brianjhagy (Jul 16, 2016)

My TBHs are approx. 45 inches long. I bevel my bottom board at 30 degrees on either side. I use the same dimensions Les Crowder gives in his book and they seem to work great. I make the hive completely out of cedar, nothing else and I would recommend this. Even my cover is made of cedar, I make different roofs on them but always out of cedar. Smells good, and in my second year, I have yet to see any varroa at all, Crowder mentions this as one reason to use cedar for construction. I have three hives, all built this way, a strong colony can build out 30 frames in less than a month here in the spring.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

brianjhagy said:


> I have yet to see any varroa at all, Crowder mentions this as one reason to use cedar for construction.


That probably has more to do with your bees than the cedar. My first year, I built a cedar hive (eastern red, known for it's pest deterrent powers) and housed a colony from a swarm trap that were the most productive bees I have seen to date. Come August, they were riddled with disease and mites. Requeened with a resistant stock, and the bees made it just fine into the following year. They are beautiful, though. Insects of all sorts nest in the gabled roof year round.


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## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

22.5º is the magic number. 19" bars are cool for using Lang boxes in conjunction but at 1.5" that seems real heavy. I wish I had used 5/8 instead of 3/4" even on mine. And with that math layout you will have BIG combs just like mine. Not sure it's the best for honey harvest but man do they make some bees! I do a single 3/4" end entrance slot as well. FWIW I don't screen my bottoms either. No opening but entrance. Got to give them a space they can control. Heavy insulted lid too. Good luck!








Please critique these plans for my first top bar hive.

Thank you! [/QUOTE]


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## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

ChuckReburn said:


> That plan will work fine. I'd recommend NOT beveling the top edge of the sides. Leaving a somewhat "pointy" contact area allows the bees to better move out of the way when you are moving bars.


Yep and easier to lift bars off of too.


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## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

They always seem like work to me although pretty and I always hear good things about that style. Personally I use 3/4"(wishing I'd used 5/8" bc then when 19" bar placed in a lang box with a migratory cover it doesn't sit flush) x 1.25" and cut a kerf down the center and S/S staple in a 3/4" strip of plastic foundation cut on a band saw. Quick, affective and easy. The girls love'em. 


Good help so far....THANKS!

What do you think about my pointy top bars? 

Any particular angle I should be using?[/QUOTE]


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## bibbster (Jun 10, 2016)

crmauch said:


> First all the caveat: I don't yet have any experience, and thus this is all my opinion. Take it for what its worth. When and if I get actual experience, my opinions may change.
> 
> This also may not apply as much to you as you are in the deep south.
> 
> ...


Funny thing, I have three hives with the entrances in the middle of the sides. In all three hives the bees started the brood nest to the right when facing the front of the hive. One hive faces south, the other two face north. Just food for thought.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

bibbster said:


> Funny thing, I have three hives with the entrances in the middle of the sides. In all three hives the bees started the brood nest to the right when facing the front of the hive. One hive faces south, the other two face north. Just food for thought.


Side entrance on front. :applause:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What do you think about my pointy top bars? 
>Any particular angle I should be using?

Steeper is better. At 45 degrees you probably hit the point of diminishing returns, but 60 degrees is a little better than 45, just not enough better to be worth the extra wood and effort...


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## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

Nice Pro Tip Michael. 45º is the natural angle of repose for a reason!



Michael Bush said:


> >What do you think about my pointy top bars?
> >Any particular angle I should be using?
> 
> Steeper is better. At 45 degrees you probably hit the point of diminishing returns, but 60 degrees is a little better than 45, just not enough better to be worth the extra wood and effort...


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