# add boxes top or bottom with foundationless frames



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I read a comment from oldtimer in a differrent thread that the reason warres hive supers are added to the bottom is because they are ran foundationless and the distance to the next top bar is to far for the bee if put on top. (or something like that)

I am going to run compleatly foundationless with my lang. Do I want to add brood nest boxes and supers on the bottom for the same reason?
Thank you
gww


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Pretty good question. One for which i don't have an answer, but would like to hear what some of the others says about it like Michael Bush. He's been doing foundationless Lang equipment for a long while now.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Dr
Dang, I wish you had an answer cause the way you communicated on my other thread, I understood your phrasing and good content. Some people got the gift of communication and I think you may be one of them.
Thanks
gww


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Sorry gww ! Honestly as I ponder the idea in my mind and knowing how bees tend to work the supers as you add each one to the hive with foundation in the frames, It sort of makes good sense to me to do an "Under Super, or Nadir" on the foundationless Langs as well. 

The bees cluser and form chains "festoon" to draw wax. They tend to attach at the high point and droop downward with the flow of gravity. For this reason it would make good sense to do the under super. When using frames with foundation the bees will attach on one side of the frame, and actually start from just about anyplace as there is something to hang on to. But we'll see what the others have to say about the thought.. lol


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

Would a top entrance make it not matter if you put them over or under?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Never tried nadiring an entire box of empty frames but I did try supering one and it didn't work out well pulling a couple of brood frames up from the middle to give them a ladder helped out quite a bit. To replace the frames below I closed the brood nest and put the empties to the outside .


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

harley
That makes sense to me. I still wonder if the other would work. I read a doc. from some gov/collage that said prevent swarming by putting the top brood on the bottom or adding the brood to the bottom. I wonder if the brood with the queen was on top and an emty was on bottom and the queen moved down but the flow was on, would the honey builders still move up to a super on top or would they move down with the queen?

As you can see I still don't have it worked out and putting all the differrent options in place where they work with each other is still confusing to me.

Gww


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

gww said:


> Do I want to add brood nest boxes and supers on the bottom for the same reason?
> Thank you
> gww


I have ran foundationless for the last few years. Never really thought about putting a super or brood box on the bottom. We just add them to the top. Like others have mentioned moving a drawn, or even a mostly drawn, frame to the new box really helps out. 

Shane


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

gww said:


> I read a comment from oldtimer in a differrent thread that the reason warres hive supers are added to the bottom is because they are ran foundationless and the distance to the next top bar is to far for the bee if put on top. (or something like that)
> 
> I am going to run compleatly foundationless with my lang. Do I want to add brood nest boxes and supers on the bottom for the same reason?
> Thank you
> gww


From what I have been reading about warre hives is that it is 'more natural' for the bees to build from the top down and as the bees build in the lower box the old wax containing honey is removed from the top. It is one way to remove old wax but not the only or best way. It sounds interesting but with my arthritic degeneration I do not think that is something for me to start with. Since tree stumps are the true natural way to keep bees we should skip which man made hive is more natural.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Ok
Good enough for me. I will wait for built comb and move some up when time to add supers.

I am still a bit curious about rotating the brood boxes as a way of swarm control when a heavy flow is on and supers are needed also. I believe I will read again the doc that put it in my brain and see what I come up with.

http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G7601

gww


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I think Bush said you put it on the bottom with a "ladder" until the pull some frames. then you can move it. I think i read it here or his site.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jc
I will go back to his site and search a bit more and see what I come up with. How would the ladder thing work?
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jc

A quote from michael bushes web site.


> Foundationless
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope I am not out of line by posting this.
Thanks
gww


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?306763-Foundationless-honey-supers&highlight=jcolon

hope this helps


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I am sorry for the last post. I was only trying to quote the last question and answer but aparrently don't know what I am doing.
Thanks
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jc
Thanks for the link.
gww


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

Cabin said:


> From what I have been reading about warre hives is that it is 'more natural' for the bees to build from the top down and as the bees build in the lower box the old wax containing honey is removed from the top.


But it is more natural for a queen to move up to lay. This conflict is the reason why Warres invariably swarm after getting two boxes drawn out. Irf your desire is to produce honey, while leaving some for the bees to overwinter, then you have to super. If not, they will just swarm and take the honey w/ them. 

I run my lang brood boxes foundationless but use foundation for the supers. Supers are only on for a few months each year anyway. Even when I ran my warre w/ honey supers they would still swarm after filling up two boxes--didn't checker brood nest due to fixed comb. You could use ladders, as others mention, but be sure the hive is level. If not, you run the risk of a mess.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jc
I did level the hives and will recheck them before putting bees in them. I did yesterday change the level from front to back after reading that the side to side level is what is important. I thought the water would not get in the hive and roof might work better(just a peice of tin). The other hive (the long one) is still level at all four corners.
Thanks
gww

Ps I intend to build up as long as the hive has enough bee mass to cover all the area. I will wait till they have 7 or eight frames built out and then move one up for the ladder.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

tsmullins said:


> I have ran foundationless for the last few years. Never really thought about putting a super or brood box on the bottom. We just add them to the top. Like others have mentioned moving a drawn, or even a mostly drawn, frame to the new box really helps out.
> 
> Shane


Good reason to standardize on all mediums or all deep equipment.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

phillip
Yes, everything I built is medium. 
gww


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Contrary to popular myth bees, of course, work down. They have no choice in a tree. They only have a choice in a Langstroth hive because you keep adding space at the top. If you add the second box to the bottom they can continue down and this is probably the simplest for the bees. The only issue then is that it's difficult for you (the beekeeper) to track when they have mostly filled the bottom box to add another on top. Since lifting one box is easy enough and since that is the most likely way to succeed in getting them to continue when the weather is still cold, I would do the first one on the bottom. When adding the next I would pull at least two frames up to that box and put empties in their place below so the two pulled up become a ladder for the wax workers to get to where they need to build comb. I would repeat this as you add boxes. If you don't mind lifting every box every time you check, you could keep adding them to the bottom (nadiring) instead of adding them to the top (supering).


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Bees are c9mpelled to fill the space above them. They can move down, but with no where near the reliability of filling the space above. They may simply decide the nest is properly structured (full above the brood nest) and swarm rather than continue moving down.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I probly won't have bees till the weather is much warmer if at all. I am going to try for a swarm and if that fails in may if the guys bees wintered well I am going to get a couple of brood comb and some shook bees.

If all this fails I am going to order early for next year.

I only brought this question up cause of a comment I had seen and didn't understand about warre hives and about the ladder going up. I really thank those that made comment and beleive I am atleast learning my options now.

Thanks
gww


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

deknow said:


> Bees are c9mpelled to fill the space above them. They can move down, but with no where near the reliability of filling the space above. They may simply decide the nest is properly structured (full above the brood nest) and swarm rather than continue moving down.


Exactly. I have yet to talk w/ someone w/ standard Warres who have not had them swarm instead of moving down. From what I found, 2 boxes is the magic number. They seem to always swarm before moving down into the third box.

The thing to remember is that moving down may be "natural" but I don't think it is preferred if given a choice. Also, I think it is actually easier for them to work up in the early spring, rather than down, as heat from the broodnest rises, keeping the space above warmer. Just a personal theory of mine, no emperical proof that I am aware of though.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> From what I found, 2 boxes is the magic number. They seem to always swarm before moving down into the third box.

I've always been too lazy to add a third box on the bottom...


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> > From what I found, 2 boxes is the magic number. They seem to always swarm before moving down into the third box.
> 
> I've always been too lazy to add a third box on the bottom...


Funny. I tried it for the first year and quickly adapted. Not only do you have to move the boxes but, with fixed frames, the bees tend to build solid comb throughout the boxes. So separating can be a pain, and you usually rip right through the broodnest.


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## Chan Rambo (Mar 3, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> Since lifting one box is easy enough and since that is the most likely way to succeed in getting them to continue when the weather is still cold, I would do the first one on the bottom. When adding the next I would pull at least two frames up to that box and put empties in their place below so the two pulled up become a ladder for the wax workers to get to where they need to build comb. (supering).


Thank you for this, it is the exact answer that I was looking for!

And thank you, gww, for asking my #1 most burning question so I didn't have to. I was seriously beginning to contemplate the logistics of nadiring on a foundationless Lang, it was a bit intimidating.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

chan
Good luck with your new hives.
gww


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## WERip (Nov 23, 2014)

So, what if you use the principles that Matt Davey has been describing with opening the side of the broodiest with nadiring? Could this work, well of course it could, but would it be of any benefit?


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

I put a couple frames of brood into my new box, and add it to the top. Its less work than adding to the bottom.


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