# Mountain Camp Method - Now What?



## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

Tim,...I think you could take all those chunks of hardened sugar and make syrup to feed your nucs. Make sure the larger hives don't need supplemental feeding, too,...as they'll be needing more because of their larger populations. I'm in Vermont and I've been using Mountaincamp's wintering method, and all 26 of my hives, which includes nucs, are alive & doing well. I wonder just how much they take the dry sugar because I find lots of it on the bottom boards when I clean things out later.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

Dry sugar feeding is largely an emergency method of saving bees, not a recommended routine practice. 

If you want to have good bees, the secret is to never let them come even close to being out of food.

Even coming close to starvation changes the whole outlook and behaviour of the colony for generations. The effects of coming close show up a month to two months later, and there are thousands of beekeepers out there scratching their chins and wondering. They have no clue what they did.

CCD? I'll bet more times than not, a near death experience by starving or malnutrition is in the colony's recent past.

IMO, syrup and patties if feed is short, fed before the need arises, makes for happy, healthy bees.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

> Dry sugar feeding is largely an emergency method of saving bees, not a recommended routine practice.


Why? It's exactly the same carbohydrate that you put in syrup. Why does everyone insist on claiming it's only for emergency feeding when syrup is acceptable? Makes no sense.



> Even coming close to starvation changes the whole outlook and behaviour of the colony for generations.


Prove it.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I would also like to hear some more data on the
linkage of "CCD" like symptoms with low stores,

Don't get me wrong, starving is detrimental, but 
long term effects?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I put dry sugar on all mine this year(only have 8)
some take it some don't 
none starved
if they don't want it I'll make syrup out of it in a couple of weeks
what's the downside?

Dave


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Now What?*

My suggestion:
Try using some C & H Drivert. It's at least 3% invert sugar.
It'e commony known as a confectioners sugar and the bees love it.

Ernie


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Ernie

I was under the impression that confectioners sugar contained corn starch to prevent clumping and would make a poor choice for feed in winter
is this not the case?
interested in thoughts

Dave


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*confectioners sugar contained corn starch*

No cornstarch.
It will clump and get hard when it dries out if it is exposed to moisture.
It's great stuff.
I have used it for over 40 years.
We use to poure it over the frames at the back of the hive and some of us still do.
It's also great when you are using it for a base to dispense TM.
Ernie


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

you mention "C & H Drivert"
that's a name brand, right?
is it different than what's at the local store?
I'm just a hobbiest so I have to take what I can get
price also counts for me 
so far crystal sugar has worked fine

Dave


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*is it different than what's at the local store?*

It is not powdered sugar.
I buy it at Los Angeles Honey Company.
It's commonly used as a frosting sugar for wedding cakes and doughnuts.
Ernie


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Ernie......... if you can share the exact name
I'd like to look into getting some up here for
my freezing bees......


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

Someone said, "Prove it". I don't need to. I have, over and over to my own satisfaction, but those who doubt me can prove it, and and probably are doing so right now. Whether or not they can connect the dots and understand that a problem that happens months in the future is the result of actions right now, or even an oversight months ago is a good question. As in all things, YMM, and what is true in South Texas may not be true farther north.


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

allend said:


> Someone said, "Prove it". I don't need to. I have, over and over to my own satisfaction, but those who doubt me can prove it, and and probably are doing so right now. Whether or not they can connect the dots and understand that a problem that happens months in the future is the result of actions right now, or even an oversight months ago is a good question. As in all things, YMM, and what is true in South Texas may not be true farther north.


Humor us - we're listening. No use witholding your expertise from those who didn't fully get the dots connected.

Also, what does YMM stand for?


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

Sorry. YMMV is 'net lingo for 'Your Mileage May Vary'. It is a standard disclaimer indicating that, while something may be true, there will be individual variations.

I'd love to write an article on the topic of borderline starvation and shortage of stores, but I really have not got the time. To do it justice would take quite a bit of work. You'll have to trust me -- or not. Actually the effects are obvious if you are looking for them. The effects _seem_ to be less obvious in the south than in the north due to longer seasons and warmer weather. Cold exacerbates the effects.

I've run thousands of hives and been a bee inspector for a while, and a beekeeper for over three decades. I've lifted lids from Arivaca to The Peace, from PEI to Victoria and from New York to Bakersfield, and I have reached this conclusion over time: bees need a goodly reserve of food on hand at all times or they'll knock themselves out trying to get one. If there is no chance of getting anything, they will try anyhow and run themselves down.

If you like, maybe take a visit to Randy oliver's excellent site at http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com. I think he has addressed this matter. You could look on mine, maybe I have in the past, but I really can't recall.

A related quote -- regarding protein rather than sugar, and re: HFCS -- I happen to have at hand from Malcolm's latest e-letter:

_Nutrition is also being carefully looked at by scientists. There’s more evidence that feeding pollen patties is extremely beneficial, especially to colonies going to almonds. And high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) feeding could be more problematic than previously thought. Of particular concern is the quantity of hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF) found in some of the food being used. Although generally produced by heat reacting on fructose, there is evidence that the HMF content may rise to unacceptable levels simply when water is added to HFCS. More at __http://home.ezezine.com/1636_2/1636_2-2009.02.13.13.26.archive.html_

If you don't get the letter, you can sign up at http://home.ezezine.com/1636_2/

Hope this helps a bit.


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## timgoodin (Mar 10, 2007)

*Thanks*

Thanks guys for all the responses. I really did not mean to "stir up a bee hive", I really just wondered when one cleans up the hive and starts feeding syrup? 

I certainly believe that a well stocked hive full of honey and pollen is the objective to shoot for. I compare it to me taking a handful of vitamins each day vs eating a steak and potatoes. I'd rather have the real thing and I bet the bees would too. But in these nucs started late last year they would either have to have been combined or they would have starved. Granted there may be some problems with them but otherwise they would have been dead. With our unpredictable flows here in West KY I did whatever was necessary to get the girls through the winter. Thanks again for your opinions.

Tim


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## mudlake (Nov 26, 2007)

Thanks for the web page Tony


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Drivert*

Here is the URL for C & H's Drivert

http://www.chsugar.com/professional/Pages/bp_3d_1.htm

A dry fondant sugar used in icings and pan-coated confections.
Bakers Drivert® has been agglomerated with *8% invert sugar to keep icings moist* and provide longer shelf life with no grain or grittiness. Invert sugar provides good humectancy.


*Kosher Certified

Ernie


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

timgoodin said:


> But in these nucs started late last year they would either have to have been combined or they would have starved. Granted there may be some problems with them but otherwise they would have been dead. With our unpredictable flows here in West KY I did whatever was necessary to get the girls through the winter. Thanks again for your opinions.


At risk of being deleted again, and not wanting to offend anyone, or throw cold water on those using the sugar method to winter their bees...

I think Allen was just saying...Could you have fed them in September or October, what they needed for winter, eliminating the need for a last ditch effort, band-aid approach? Of course, once they got to the point of possible starvation, you did what you had to do. And I'm not saying that's the wrong approach.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?


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## timgoodin (Mar 10, 2007)

Michael: We did feed them August, Sept, Oct and Nov ( a quart of 2:1 per week) and dumped the sugar in December. I have not pulled any frames on them because of the hunks of sugar and just did not want to bother them so I'm not sure if they have stores left or not, they (the nuc boxes) are very light. Next year we plan to feed even more 2:1. Tim


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Sounds to me like adding sugar BEFORE they run out of stores is just the ticket. It eliminates the need for feeding HFCS in the fall, eliminates any imagined starvation "syndrome", and just doesn't have any negative side effects that I can see. My hives build up on it in early spring when we have lots of pollen but not much flow. It works, plain and simple.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

*Mountain Camp Method*

Michael I know from reading your posts that you are not found of this band-aid approach. I am using it on my hives this winter, but I agree with you that adequate fall feeding is a real good idea. I do believe that the bees will likely winter better on comb that dry sugar. The thing I like most about this method is the moisture control. Before I put the sugar in, my hives were wet. I have bore holes in each box, the entrance is reduced but open, I have some air movement out the top, and I hive the hives tilted so the moisture runs down the front. The sugar pile has marks where the condensation dripped into it. Without the sugar it would have dripped into the cluster. The hives are much drier now than they were before the sugar. I will likely us this method again next winter.
Dave


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

Allen, good links...good info there for all to ponder. We've talked about HMF levels on here but it's interesting to see it related to popular current practices...I'd like to see if this pans out any more over the next few years in new research. I'm not fully sold on the detriment, but I think all understand the points you try to make.

Michael Palmer also makes good points, and I think what all really strive for is to have a hive that they can put to bed in the fall and come back to in the spring and find just fine. I think some of us, myself included are still working to get there. Some of mine were this way, and some weren't. I have to say, I'm glad I've been lifting the backs of the boxes this winter to check to see how much they still have left, because many of mine went from heavyweight to featherweight over the course of this winter. Some are light that I really expected to be able to borrow a frame or two off of in the spring. 

At slight risk of getting off topic, I'll say that this was definitely an off-winter...what appeared to be good preparation just seemed inadequate. I'd like to start another thread so we don't kill this one - it'd be nice to hear Michael, Allen, and everyone else weigh in on just what went so wrong for so many folks this year. Strains of bees, good fall build-up, and a really hard winter may have served to create the perfect storm. t: 

Tim, let us know how things progress. Many folks are in the same boat you are in. A lot of folks had a pollen-rich, nectar-poor year, and it has seemed to many of us like even despite of all efforts to fatten them up, big clusters and high consumption rates made things problematic this year in a lot of ways. I think a lot of folks play it safe and wait until they see pieces of it being taken out the front to pull it off...this has served well, and in most cases you can crush it up and re-use it for spring feeding.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

Thanks for the comments. I really am not entirely up to speed on the Mountain Camp Method as such, but have done a little research in case I am missing something. I'm assuming that http://www.indianahoney.com/drysugar.html sums the idea up well. If I am missing something that makes this particular variation magic, I apologise.

My friend Dave Green http://pollinator.com/ was a big fan of dry feeding using newspaper, and I saw it in practice when I visited him in South Carolina after the Virginia Beach ABF meeting, and, of course, I have tried variations on it myself at times.

I understand that some use it as a way of dealing with moisture, and I can see that it is mostly of use in what I consider to be the south. In the north, leaving a lot of empty space above the combs can be problematic for one thing. 

For another, feeding _anything_ besides stored food in combs after the bees settle down results in sub-optimal performance later unless they are starving in which case being alive, even if weak and with run-down fat bodies, is better than dead. That caveat includes candy boards, etc. 

I know people will argue, but usually people who have never tried giving the right bees the right amount of space and ventilation and making sure there is sufficient food, early in the fall so the bees settle down rather than flying in search of food on every day when it is even marginal. or people who like to tinker constantly with their bees and test the bees endurance, rather than do the right thing early in fall and go away.

I have have seen many things, and nothing compares to that ideal -- the right strain of bees, the right size of hive, the right ventilation, adequate stores, and, where indicated, some wrapping.

I see some friends who really should know better miss the target over and over and they constantly have winter loss and poor spring performance along with nosema, etc.

Bees that are just subsisting result in beekeepers who are just subsisting and that results in bees that are just subsisting that result in beekeepers who are just ...

It is a loop and the way to break out is to make sure the bees never come close to starvation. Malnutrition has similar effects to starvation. Bees need high quality food, _and more than enough on hand_ to keep them settled down and quiet. In this day of monoculture pollen from agricultural crops is often inadequate in composition. HFCS is suspect. Dry sugar is an uncertain supply. It can be tough.

Sorry if I am getting OT. I'm trying to keep from spending too much time here, and this point cannot be emphasized enough. I really worry about relying on dry sugar feeding becoming a habit for unsuspecting beekeepers who get to thinking that the results are normal.

As an emergency measure, I am all for it.

By the way, I am not addressing anyone in particular here. I've sorta forgotten what got me going, so please, nobody take this personally. It is just a rant.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

timgoodin said:


> Michael: We did feed them August, Sept, Oct and Nov ( a quart of 2:1 per week) and dumped the sugar in December. Next year we plan to feed even more 2:1. Tim


Use larger cans. Feed 1 gallon at a time, instead of 1 quart. I'm not really sure of nucs' feed needs in KY, but here they need 3.5 frames of feed in mid-October. I check each nuc in late September, and feed accordingly. How much does it take to get them to 3.5 frames of feed. I try to feed that much at once, or with 1 return trip a week later. They store it and cap it, and they're done with it.

Maybe your feeding in August and September was for making bees. They didn't, and wouldn't store that. Not sure about October. They're still raising brood at that time? Still pollen? Maybe they raised brood from that feeding, too?

When the nucs are beginning shutdown, then feed what they need for winter. Figure about 7 pounds for each frame that needs to be winter feed, and feed it fast.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Dave Burrup said:


> The thing I like most about this method is the moisture control. Before I put the sugar in, my hives were wet. I have bore holes in each box, the entrance is reduced but open, I have some air movement out the top, and I hive the hives tilted so the moisture runs down the front.


And your inner cover is insulated? This is one of the most important parts of winter hive preparations.

In my area, a reduced bottom entrance...even with an upper entrance...will lead to moisture problems. Air flow is restricted to the size of the bottom entrance. A wide open bottom entrance, protected with 1/2" hardware cloth, is what works best here.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

dug_6238 said:


> I think what all really strive for is to have a hive that they can put to bed in the fall and come back to in the spring and find just fine. I think some of us, myself included are still working to get there. Some of mine were this way, and some weren't.
> 
> I have to say, I'm glad I've been lifting the backs of the boxes this winter to check to see how much they still have left, because many of mine went from heavyweight to featherweight over the course of this winter. Some are light that I really expected to be able to borrow a frame or two off of in the spring.


You're gaining on it, Dug..."some were, some weren't." Gaol for this year..."most were, some weren't."


Do you know why some were so light? Did they raise brood late, or all winter? Wrong bee. That'll eat up the stores. Raise some queens from the ones that didn't. 

Also, I used to lift them all in the Fall, to check weights. Gave it up after I had a 25% starvation one year. After a few yards, they all feel heavy. They seemed heavy, but... Better to weigh each hive, and feed them to a target weight. Over a few years, you can refine that weight, and add a bit for those years when you have an "off winter." My target weight is 155-160 lbs.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

I agree. If you are going to heft hives, make up a dummy hive the same size with floor and lid and fill it with bricks until it is your target weight. Then calibrate yourself from time to time by hefting it. I found our guys got so they could guess the weight within a kilogram or two much of the time. If your hives are on stands, make sure the test 'hive' is sitting in a similar position.


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## timgoodin (Mar 10, 2007)

Michael: I think you hit the nail on the head, the queens in the nucs never slowed down until almost November (they were late summer queens) so I do believe the syrup went into brood for the most part. They were booming with bees going into Thanksgiving weekend as we did not get our killing frost until early in November which usually comes in early to mid October sometime. Next year I plan to start a few weeks earlier and will do as suggested feed more at one time. Thanks for the suggestions, it's always great to get experienced beeks opinions.

Tim


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Nature doesn't always play fair. We get two flows down here, one spring, one fall. If you leave spring honey, they eat it during the summer and make more bees. If you take it and bank on fall flows, you may not get a fall flow. Either way, you may not have stores for winter. So you say, feed syrup in the fall. Syrup is white sugar mixed with water. Whether the white sugar is stored in comb or in a pile on top of the frames is irrelevant to the nutrition of the bees. Now, if it is so cold the bee can't break cluster that's one problem (and likely in Vermont and AB), but many of us don't have that. In most of the country the bees can break cluster periodically throughout the winter. As noted, the sugar is also good for absorbing moisture in the hive, a win win. There are a number of us using this method quite successfully, healthy bees and good spring buildup. If you don't want to use it, don't. For those that do, try it and see whether it works for you.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'd leave the sugar until there is a nectar flow coming in that seems pretty reliable. You don't want them to starve when doing their spring brood rearing push. Then I'd pull all the sugar off and dump it into five gallon buckets and seal it up good for the next time you need it.


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## NewBee2007 (May 6, 2007)

*Could you put the sugar on top of the inner cover?*

...if you do not have the ability to add a shim or another super?

Also, wouldn't adding another super create more space therfore making the bees work harder to keep warm?


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

1) yes, but in cold climates they might not break cluster and find it.
2) maybe, but it pretty much covers the top bars. If you believe they don't really heat the hive anyway, it doesn't matter.


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