# Breeding Feral Bees for Specific Enviroments



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

I would think with ferals nature is the culling mechanism.

given the problems here with ahb, varroa and the more tradional brood disease my current policy is to limit picking up feral (I do pick up a swarm from time to time) and always place them in a seperate temporary holding yard. for all the swarms I do retrieve a sample (about 50 workers) is sent to the state bee lab to determine ahb.


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

Once feral bees are placed into managed hives do they remain feral?
Are managed bees with an older queen that swarm, leave the hive and set up in the woods, feral?
Why does the chicken cross the road?
What came first the chicken or the egg?
Questions????


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--How do those of you that have move to captured feral swarms manage them? What are the culling procedures? How ruthless is the cull? --(Albert)

Hello Albert!

Ive been all feral honeybees for several years. This was achieved not as a goal, but simply by culling of the worst performers which resulted in all commercial stock getting culled due to poor performance against the ferals 

I have found out quite by accident a great way to assess and cull out the dud feral swarms (for there are many). I restrict my swarms to single deeps and place them in my poorest location for the initial 18 weeks of assessment. In such poor forage locations are tough of bees and the best genetics will stand out above the rest. In this poor location, the nearest forage location is more than 1.5 miles away, and this helps me to select for specific traits. If placed in a good location, even the poor stock will tend to do better making it a bit more difficult to tell apart, but it can be done with careful observation skills. 

I assess for the three stages listed below.
I usually have 40 to 50% culled by the end of the first stage 18 weeks. But if remote type ferals are targeted, the level of culling will be reduced to about 10 maybe 20 percent.

(1) Colony initiation and growth
This assessment phase lasts from colony initiation on thru till the end of the first active season, a total of approximately 18 weeks after the colonies are established. 

(2) winter survival and hardiness. 
This assessment phase lasts from the end of the first active season thru winter until first pollen.

(3) spring reproduction.
This assessment phase lasts from first pollen up until swarming season begins

--Do you ever use commercial bloodlines or is there an 'Underground Feral Railroad' to exchange bloodlines?--(Albert)

Never will I ever use commercial stock, they just do not perform well against the ferals. I may be willing to provide feral stock to people, but I will not accept stock from others just yet unless strict requirements are met. 


--One of my earlier incarnations was as a microbiologist with an interest in genetics. And my aquisition of bees has sparked a resurgence in that field and a specific interest in the adaptation to a specific enviroment.--(Albert)

This adaptation is key to ferals! I was worried for years how remote ferals need to be to be able to develop varroa resistance and recover on their own with all the commercial stock scattered about. Most experts say remoteness is needed in any breeding operation. But what I am seeing here with the woodland ferals, is that they have already recovered in semi remote areas and I am also seeing some divergence away from traits normally associated in resistance in commercial stock.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

WG,
Feral is domestic gone wild. Enviromental pressures usually result in either new traits that adapt to a local, or more likely a regression to pre-domestication traits. 
I would guess that if they are managed intensivly you might say they are once again livestock. If you leave them to their own devises then I would define them as feral. As long as the breeding is for the most part performed with limited human influence, then I don't have any issue with calling them feral. 

Joe,
The greater the enviromental pressure, the more likely that a change will occur in the genome. I suppose given enough time any domestic bees will isolate whatever genetic trait allows it to survive. The usual Darwinian method!

The bees I recently ended up with have been living on their own for some time now and where there where approx 10 or 11 hives at one time, only eight have survived over time. Now I don't know if maybe at one time only one hive survived and repopulated the other seven. But all of the bee's combs cells are small, there is little evidence of any disease, and the supers, though glued completly together, in addition to lotsa bur-comb, are chuck full of honey. They seem to be doing something right.

I think I like your straight forwaed method and intend to follow a simular one.

Thanks
Albert


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

albert sezs:
But all of the bee's combs cells are small

tecumseh adds:
this 'can' be an indicator of africanization. 

years back a old bee keeper with whom I worked suggested that unattended bees most of the time thrived better than their often attended sisters. along these same lines I have in the past suggested that new beekers limit the number and/or frequency of hive manipulation.

as I think you fully understand 'culling' is often time the forgotten (and in my mind most important) aspect of selection (either natural or not).


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

Albert
I did not expect a response as I was making fun of the play on words that occures when beekeepers talk.
Webster Dictionary defines "feral" as : 
1. untamed; wild 2.savage; brutal.
By this definition all honey bees whether hived and managed in brood boxes or collected from the wild are ferals. the honey bee is a wild insect creature that has not been domesticated, like the cow. We use this wild insect only because we have learned to manage and manipulate them for our benefit. They are not "tamed".
Frank

[ December 01, 2006, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: WG Bee Farm ]


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Frank,
No offence intended. I don't know y'all yet, please forgive any misunderstanding as I didn't mean any harm.

Oh and I'm sorry for all the misspelled word it was late!!

Thanks,
Albert


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Hello all. This is an interesting and important topic. We have been incorporating "ferals" into our program for years. By any measurement honeybees are not truly completely domesticated. That aside, what fascinates me is the two-way gene flow between managed and unmanaged (feral) populations. Drones from both groups will breed with queens from both groups. These gene pools are not usually separate distinct entities; except for in the case of barriers to reproduction: natural geographic barriers to reproduction or biological barriers (flight times of drones and queens, speciation, etc). For instance I have noticed in remote areas here in Southern Oregon where we began our breeding program, there now seems to be more feral colonies. We pulled out of that area six ears ago and when we started it was extremely rare to see honeybees, now despite few to no beekeepers in that area it is not uncommon to see bees in very remote areas, even at higher elevations. Could these be descendants from my initial Russians and SMRs? I know there were many swarms that escaped and contributed to the unmanaged gene pool. I would expect that as survivor stocks are propagated and shipped around the country the numbers of feral colonies would increase. I see feral populations as a gene pool that we can both draw on and contribute to.
JBJ


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

[I see feral populations as a gene pool that we can both draw on and contribute to.]

This seriously demonstrates that we have a responsibility to assure that the genetics we are contributing aren't garbage else we'll be polluting rather than contributing to.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Nature culls the garbage in the absence of human intervention. I believe the ecological term would be natural selection. What would worry me would be transgenic genes artificially introduced to the bee genome getting out there to never be isolated again.
JBJ


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Hello JBJ!

At least in my area, I have not been able to see any evidence that suggests commercial stock are contributing to the feral recovery. It appears recovery is occurring fastest in remote areas and gradually migrating closer to domestic beekeeping areas (my observations since I began collecting and assessing ferals after the varroa crashes of 1995). 

Although, ferals and domestics are no doubt exchanging some genetics (beneficial or not). I am still seeing a rather remarkable distinction between remote type ferals and domestics. That is, associated traits and queen body markings are generally different, and sometimes (as I am beginning to see in ferals collected) special traits associated to a breeding population of honeybees in one particular micro habitat, intrestingally enough may not be apparent in another, or at the least, expressed at different levels. 

So this seems to suggest to me that there is a race, a rapid evolution of varroa resistant genetics occurring in all feral honeybee populations. BUT each breeding population in the race to evolve this resistance, are sometimes employing different combinations of strategies to win this evolutionary race. It appears each population has its own unique combination of varroa resistant traits as a method of varroa suppression, developed from the most prominent traits present within that particular breeding population. 

A striking example of this separate evolution is a trait of extremely intense allogrooming behavior present in a remote population of feral honeybees that I discovered, which I have NEVER observed as of yet in any other ferals collected else ware. This line of allogrooming bees are my top performers and grooming (I suppose) is the main mode of resistance in combination with other traits, and location of this population for now will remain a secret. Other ferals are doing almost as well, but seemingly employ other modes of varroa resistance, some as yet undetermined.

[ December 02, 2006, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

"It appears recovery is occurring fastest in remote areas.."

What do you see with these bees when they are moved to a "non-remote" area?

Could they be thriving in remote areas because their habitat is beyond the radius of the undesirable influence?

Will they retain these traits when moved to a more diverse genetic environment?


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--What do you see with these bees when they are moved to a "non-remote" area?--(Mike)

Hello Mike!

When I move these remote bees to my assessment yard and compare them to others in the same yard is when I assess and record the performance. When they are moved to the farmland, the colonies that assessed well in the poor forage location do remarkably better. Im happy to see that when I make splits of my top performing ferals, the daughter colonies do equally well also. 

--Could they be thriving in remote areas because their habitat is beyond the radius of the undesirable influence?--(Mike)

This is a great question, and one that has fascinated and perplexed me since my interest in ferals began. From what I am observing in my area and how the feral recovery is developing. It appears that it is not as important that the ferals be beyond the radius of influence from domestic honeybees, as it is that there be superb habitat necessary for them to thrive in. The quality and quantity of voids are an extremely important part of any feral bee habitat, and these abundant void areas seem to be the places where ferals are recovering the fastest. Think about it, what is important for a breeder in dominating the breeding sphere is to have many many hives, well the same must apply to the ferals. But yes, I agree that semi- remoteness is probably necessary. 

For instance, I found my allogrooming strain in prime farmland back in 2001, very early in the feral recovery process at a time when I was getting no referrals for honeybees due to the collapse of the ferals. I wondered for weeks in amazement about what made this particular area so special that they recover here first? It was farmland like any other, but the ferals were recovering here first, but the habitat or isolation seemed not that much different! Then it dawned on me, this farm land was from years back, old construction with abundant voids in abandoned farms and silos, farmhouses, sheds, 100 year old growth fence row tree lines, containing many many large prime type voids over a vast area of prime forage. 

--Will they retain these traits when moved to a more diverse genetic environment?--(Mike)

Thank goodness, YES! 

So much so that I plan on capturing more allogrooming ferals from the first recovery location and also using my own allogrooming stock to introduce to a woodland enviornment that has ferals of astounding brood viability and colony fecundity. I do not know the mode of resistance in these woodland ferals just yet, but they do not exhibit grooming behavior. I believe if combined with the all grooming trait, I may be able to aid in the creation of a much more resistant and more productive feral bee a bit closer to home.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Your post raises a few interesting questions. Are you able to quantify the actual mite pressure in these remote areas? Left to their own devices bees from areas with the heaviest mite pressure are the ones most likely to be forced to develop resistance mechanisms. Strong selection pressure will yield some evolutionary response. What kind and how much selection pressure do these bees face? I would suspect there are ecological pockets with varying degrees of selection pressure and some remote areas may face less mite pressure due to lower exposure rates.

What is the reproductive barrier between the ferals you refer to and commercial stocks? We sold a lot of queens in PA over the last two years. I will bet at least a few swarmed and will be putting out plenty of drones this spring; and some will have quasi-feral ancestry.
JBJ


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Are you able to quantify the actual mite pressure in these remote areas?--(JBJ)

Hello JBJ!

Thanks for the great conversation!
How would one quantify actual mite pressure in a particular area? Mites have infested every area in the lower 48. There is no area once having varroa that managed to eliminate it. A reproducing female varroa mite will kill a colony in 3 years, even if no mites are quantified in the area other than that found inside that colony. 

--Left to their own devices bees from areas with the heaviest mite pressure are the ones most likely to be forced to develop resistance mechanisms.-(JBJ) 

Please clarify what you mean by bees from areas with the heaviest mite pressure are the ones most likely to be forced to develop resistance mechanisms

For example: Lets go ahead and look in detail at the heaviest mite pressure my area ever experienced.

It was during the years around 95 - 96 when losses ranged from 50 to 100% from varroa pressure. Heavy mite pressure of this magnitude was caused by the stampede effect from absconding bees fleeing non resistant colonies, and was reflective of the lack of resistance found in that population of honeybees. Often, it is the cause of a total collapse of the population of bees which every colony located in that area is a part of, resistant or not. So heavy mite pressure in an area is not reflective of a population of resistant honeybees, but suggests instead, a population of less resistant honeybees. 

My belief is that a colony that is placed in an area takes on the ALL stresses found in that area, the two are inseparable,,, a colony is part of the environment and to a degree also a part of the neighboring colonies. This is observed often in my area during the varroa crashes of the 90s when it was not uncommon for one apiary to suffer more than 50% loss, and the next apiary none. 

From observing the ferals, it seems a highly resistant feral colony is part of its environment(as all colonies are), the two are inseparable. The resistant colonies found in a woodland environment have already experienced their varroa collapses and ebb and flow in varroa levels finding a balance in the breeding population to a varroa level that is compatible with its resistance and subsequent survival. Removing these ferals and placing them in highly infested yards destroys this equilibrium with the varroa that the colony as adapted to which may cause even resistant colonies to collapse under the pressure, or stampede effect. 

--Strong selection pressure will yield some evolutionary response. What kind and how much selection pressure do these bees face? I would suspect there are ecological pockets with varying degrees of selection pressure and some remote areas may face less mite pressure due to lower exposure rates..--(JBJ) 

I dont understand what you mean by exposure rates? As a routine, all areas have been exposed to varroa, and continue to be exposed to varroa, and non resistant colonies will continue die if untreated causing heavy selective pressure, and the cycle continues. A sudden influx of varroa is not natural and will cause any colony to collapse. 

--What is the reproductive barrier between the ferals you refer to and commercial stocks?--(JBJ) 

Semi isolation and isolation by genetic dominance. Same as you as a breeder would tell others that you dominate the breeding with your stock, creating a barrier of sorts, so do the ferals. There is also the heating effect where ferals from the slightly higher elevation woodlands may reach drone flying conditions at a different time than lowlands, causing more woodland drones to be flying times woodland queens are flying. Also, recent evidence shows most queen mating occurring in the near vicinity and drones not flying as far as once suggested also. 


--We sold a lot of queens in PA over the last two years. I will bet at least a few swarmed and will be putting out plenty of drones this spring; and some will have quasi-feral ancestry.
--JBJ

Most breeders love to take credit for the feral recovery, but I just dont see evidence of this claim in the ferals in my area. Feral swarms captured near to commercial beekeeping areas routinely die off for me, or get culled due to lack of growth, or end up non starters or as I call duds.

[ December 02, 2006, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Wow, lots of stuff there to respond to. Never intended to take credit for feral recovery, but I am convinced as we identify survivor stocks and propagate them there will be some that establish themselves in a variety of conditions. Are you asserting that all escape swarms from survivor stock from breeders and their clients actually make no beneficial contribution towards feral recovery?

'Please clarify what you mean by bees from areas with the heaviest mite pressure are the ones most likely to be forced to develop resistance mechanisms'

I guess what I am suggesting here is that there are some managed populations of bees that through pollination and other migratory/commercial activities may be exposed to extremely high mite levels. There are situations such as almond pollination where it may be reasonable to expect your hives to be exposed to large numbers of the most virulent mites. This would represent additional selection pressure. Did the pockets that survived the 95-96 crash you refer to survive due to resistant genetics or where there small isolated areas that were not exposed to mites or only to less virulent mites? I would bet all three situations occurred. To make a definite statement here, one would have to examine the matrilineal DNA of sampled mites.

"So heavy mite pressure in an area is not reflective of a population of resistant honeybees, but suggests instead, a population of less resistant honeybees."

This seems statement seems obvious. What I am suggesting is that it is an opportunity to test your bees to see if they can survive the onslaught and strong selection pressure that occurs in non-isolated commercial type environments.

Parasite host equilibrium is a fascinating area of ecology to explore. Left to their own devises many parasite host relationships developed a non-lethal model of coexistence. Parasites would go extinct if they were 100% lethal to their hosts. There are situations where newly introduced species (Varroa) are way out of this type of equilibrium and may force their host to the brink of extinction. It is well documented that there are several strains of Varroa with varying degrees of virulence. Any idea what type is in your area?

"Semi isolation and isolation by genetic dominance."

I am not convinced that either of these two conditions represents a barrier to reproduction. As long as drone congregation areas and flight radii overlap there will be interbreeding. Genetic dominance in and of its self does not prevent mating between this closely related of organisms, unless you are suggesting sympatric speciation has occurred. I agree that nest location may influence mating flight times, however what is to prevent one of these escape swarms from a managed hive from setting up shop in the same location thus producing coincidental mating times?

Don't get me wrong, I think the work you are doing is great and necessary. I just think we may have different views about the exchange of genetic material between feral and managed colonies. The terms feral and managed are often relative terms when it comes to bees. If one wanted to make some definitive statements one way or the other we would have to look at the DNA in these feral populations over time. Some of the best bees we have in our program have been from feral stock, but do they become less valuable over time? Only if we make poor selection choices; and in which case there will hopefully be a great feral gene pool to draw on from time to time. I see it as a give and take relationship. 

Apis mellifera is an introduced species to this hemisphere and Steve Sheppard and some of his students have done some interesting work looking at the genome of ferals and commercial lines. They are definitely more alike than not and share only a relative few common ancestors which established the honeybees in this country that we know and love today. Dr Sheppard has mentioned many times the extreme lack of genetic diversity in our bee gene pool is a real problem. I agree. Diversity is key to long-term sustainability. If all of our bees are too alike they will all be vulnerable to the same diseases, pathogens, and pests. It would be interesting to know the genetic ancestry of the ferals you are working with. It is possible to trace their DNA all the way back to their initial ancestors that came over with the settlers. The German black bee seems to be the only one that I recall still turning up outside commercial lines very rarely in assays of feral bee genomes. I think Dr Sheppard traced all feral and commercial DNA samples to only 8 of the 26 Old World sub-species. That fact coupled with mass die offs represent very large genetic bottleneck. 

Your feral bees ancestors were once managed, thus illustrating how human interaction can influence the spread of genes. This still occurs today as we mail bees all over the world.
JBJ


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

[...during the years around 95 - 96 when losses ranged from 50 to 100% from varroa pressure. ]

Mite infestations are cyclical (some say about 7 years.)

[...areas with the heaviest mite pressure are the ones most likely to be forced to develop resistance mechanisms. ]

Labratories (Spivak and Colby both I think) have said that a trigger must be present to initiate a response. However, I don't think anyone has said that a heavier trigger level necessarily relates to a better or faster adaptation. Just that a pressure must be present on some scale. 

I think these points are the reason some folks are not seeing the results that they expected from Russian lines. Russians maybe adapted to their micro-climate (and tolerate (not resist) mites very well). But put into our variable micro-climates throughout the US, we can not expect them to react the same. Seasonal changes, environmental fluctuations in temperature and humidity all impact the life cycle of mites. This can mean more mites at different seasons unlike those of Russia, and therefore performance can not be expected to be the same. 

I feel that even very genetically strong strains of bees still require a degree of acclimation to the specific region they are expected to perform. 

Besides an endless year in migratory beekeeping, these changes in micro-climates maybe what diminish the life of queen to months rather than years (among other stresses such as moving, etc.)

This only further supports the need to raise local stocks of bees rather then depending on bulk bee producers to give us an ideal local stock. I think bulk bee producers do have a place in beekeeping (we have all had a time when we just needed more bee bodies). But my opinion is they are a band-aid, not a fix, and that a truely good fix has to be the product of good local beekeeping practices (feeding/rearing/wintering/etc.). Fortunately nature provides us a good source of her opinion of locally ideal bees in the for of ferals. And so I have to ask why not take advantage of that? And granted this thread can morph into "Are all ferals Equal?" but by concensus we already agree they are not. So we ask "How are they different?" And the answer to this answers the orignal thread question "What characteristics do you judge and cull swarms?" It depends on what the beekeeper values as important. If its a cyclical year and half his bees are dying from mites, his focus might be mites. If the weather is terrible and the honey crop is weak, it might be production. If the beekeeper is expanding then maybe a strong brood pattern becomes a focus. Everything eventually muttles to a shades of grey, because these expectations are likely to change year to year and efforts towards one result may undo the efforts towards a different result. 

[How ruthless is the cull?] 

If a beekeeper is smart he doesn't cull very often. For if he is a good beekeeper he realizes that every colony and queen has specific characteristics that are purposeful for a specific task (some for nucs and brood raising, others for comb honey, others for other tasks). He then puts the bees to work at that task. {Sailing his boat by the guiding stars}

Else if he is lazy or narrow focused, then he will cull the queen and replace her with one aligned with his present or even whimsical goal. {ruddlessly sailing about the habor with new landmarks at every bend}

Which kind beekeeper are any you? are you sure? [smile]

-Jeff


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Jeff, some vary good points there. I know I was not wild about Russians in 99/2000. Through seclection, acclimatization and hybridization over many years we ended up with a bee I liked very much. Perhaps that is the one main of the advantages of ferals. With joe beek pressing them for cartain traits they can work on fitness for their specific microclimate. 

"I don't think anyone has said that a heavier trigger level necessarily relates to a better or faster adaptation. Just that a pressure must be present on some scale. "

As far as selection pressure gos I feel that it must be consistant and heavy. Look at what the plant breeders have done. I have read about trials where nearly all plants in a study are wiped out due to heavy selection pressure. It may be only .02% of the overall population that has the targeted traits initially. If the selection pressure is not uniform it would be difficult to make informed decisions. Perhaps this is part of the problem with progress in bee breeding?
JBJ


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Are you asserting that all escape swarms from survivor stock from breeders and their clients actually make no beneficial contribution towards feral recovery?--(JBJ)

Hello JBJ!

I am asserting that I have not seen evidence that domestics are contributing to the feral recovery in my area, the pattern of recovery and some traits observed in the ferals suggest otherwise or at least, very little exchange. My opinion is that most of the contribution may be more harmful than good, by spreading genetics not fit to our northern environment, or spreading genetics that cannot survive without treatments and support from the beekeeper. 

--I guess what I am suggesting here is that there are some managed populations of bees that through pollination and other migratory/commercial activities may be exposed to extremely high mite levels. There are situations such as almond pollination where it may be reasonable to expect your hives to be exposed to large numbers of the most virulent mites. This would represent additional selection pressure.--(JBJ) 

Why would these mites be any more virulent that others? If there are high numbers of mites in these migratory colonies, then in simply suggests that they are non resistant stock, or under stress due to management practices. 

--Did the pockets that survived the 95-96 crash you refer to survive due to resistant genetics or where there small isolated areas that were not exposed to mites or only to less virulent mites?--(JBJ)

I would say the honeybees survived as a result of being more virulent honeybees! All the ferals must have been exposed because when I place them in my apiaries, most remote ferals maintain very low mite populations, so they must have evolved resistant traits. I dont by the less virulent mite loophole, I mean hypothesis.









--What I am suggesting is that it is an opportunity to test your bees to see if they can survive the onslaught and strong selection pressure that occurs in non-isolated commercial type environments.--(JBJ)

I doubt any resistant colony can survive a rapid onslaught of varroa. What I see in the ferals here is that resistance mechanisms work over time and are simply not evolved to handle an onslaught in a short period. 

--Parasite host equilibrium is a fascinating area of ecology to explore. Left to their own devises many parasite host relationships developed a non-lethal model of coexistence.
Parasites would go extinct if they were 100% lethal to their hosts. There are situations where newly introduced species (Varroa) are way out of this type of equilibrium and may force their host to the brink of extinction.--(JBJ) 

There will be an equilibrium, but I dont see it stopping there. There is also the continuing competition between honeybee genetics to dominate. Some survivor colonies may coexist keeping high mite loads and not be productive, but others will thrive, reduce mites to a minimum, out compete and dominate the genetic pool. 

--It is well documented that there are several strains of Varroa with varying degrees of virulence. Any idea what type is in your area?--(JBJ)

Well, according to our experts here in Pa, we had 85,000 commercial honey bee colonies. By 1995, the number had plummeted to less than 27,000 colonies. Many beekeepers lost 50 to 75 percent of their colonies and some beekeepers were wiped out. I lost 100 percent several times during the 90s. Today, wild honey bees are still practically nonexistent in many areas. Homeowners have reported a near-absence of honey bees in their gardens. Estimates vary, but the Northeast may have lost 80 to 90 percent of its wild honey bees since 1990. Of the 13 wild colonies Penn State researchers located in the fall of 1995, 11 died during the winter of 1995-96.

Seems quite virulent to me!









Best Wishes,


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--What characteristics do you judge and cull swarms?" It depends on what the beekeeper values as important. If its a cyclical year and half his bees are dying from mites, his focus might be mites.--(Jeff)

Hello Jeff!

When I assess my feral swarms, I am starting from square one. So varroa resistance I dont consider that just yet, because this needs assessed as the colony matures, and there is no way to really assess this during the early years anyways. I focus on assessing the basic traits that will reveal the fastest which colonies have the most potential. I start basically with assessing fecundity and traits of economic value first during the growth stage of approximately 18 weeks. This is very effective in rapidly determining the best performers, allowing me to get culling sooner (BTW, averages about 50% culling in the first 18 weeks and makes me a bad beekeeper I guess). 

--If a beekeeper is smart he doesn't cull very often. For if he is a good beekeeper he realizes that every colony and queen has specific characteristics that are purposeful for a specific task--(Jeff)

This is basically true, but I doubt with every colony. If a good beekeeper splits from his best performers, why wouldnt he also select the very worst to cull? If you do not cull the bottom, then you are in fact promoting these types of genetics simply by allowing them to survive. 

I am working to develop the best bee possible, and it is important I cull very heavy to rid the pool of less desirables. I also do not set the bar according to what the book says. I let my top performers set the bar for the rest, and go from there. For instance, my goal this season was to bring brood viability near to match a line of ferals exhibiting above 98% viability. Viability is IMO an extremely important characteristic for winter survival and productivity. I had to cull a few exceptional colonies due to poor viability, but its the price I must pay to bring up over all performance.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Pcolar, Well a lot to address once again. I will start with just a few.

"I am asserting that I have not seen evidence that domestics are contributing to the feral recovery in my area, the pattern of recovery and some traits observed in the ferals suggest otherwise or at least, very little exchange. My opinion is that most of the contribution may be more harmful than good, by spreading genetics not fit to our northern environment, or spreading genetics that cannot survive without treatments and support from the beekeeper."

The only way to prove this statement is with genetic analysis. I would suspect open mating and hybridization are more likely than not. Further, all honeybees are an introduced species! I agree that acclimatization is VERY important to developing bees that do well in one's local area. It would be informative to trace the lineage of your ferals to determine their ancestry. We might even be able to determine which boat the great great great great... grandmothers came over on before they became "feral". Your state is about the same latitude as ours, perhaps that is why our bees seem to be doing so well there. Pa is our best state on the East Coast for sales. I think Kirk Webster's views on Northern Queen breeders are valid and apply here to our situations.

As far as the virulence of mites goes, all Varroa mites are not equal. Some populations harbor virus, some may not. I think there is 6 different haplotypes of Varroa, at least two of which are well documented in the states. I am sure we would find other differences in localized mite populations similar to what we see with bees if a large-scale genetic analysis were done.

There will be an equilibrium, but I dont see it stopping there. There is also the continuing competition between honeybee genetics to dominate. Some survivor colonies may coexist keeping high mite loads and not be productive, but others will thrive, reduce mites to a minimum, out compete and dominate the genetic pool."

This is a well-documented ecological phenomenon. I agree survival of the fittest is what Nature moves toward when unfettered by mans interventions. The point you are referring to here is on that same equilibrium continuum, just further to one extreme. Populations tend to fluxgate between the two extremes of the continuum as selection pressures fluctuate with environmental changes.

I would say the honeybees survived as a result of being more virulent honeybees! All the ferals must have been exposed because when I place them in my apiaries, most remote ferals maintain very low mite populations, so they must have evolved resistant traits. I dont by the less virulent mite loophole, I mean hypothesis. 

Are you actually suggesting there are no genetic differences (resulting in degrees in virulence) in populations of Varroa mites? That would surely be an anomaly in nature. We are just beginning to understand Varroa biology and genetics. Dr Dianna Sammataro has a soon to be published paper on mites which she referenced at our annual OSBA Fall Conference which had some very surprising information on mites. You can rest assured that there are genetic differences in populations of Varroa mites. I am not suggesting that your bees are not resistant, but just being feral does not guarantee a broad spectrum of resistance to a wider Varroa genome and set of environmental conditions. That said I would love to try some of your bees. 

I do not know the exact genetic makeup of the Varroa that we are dealing with here either. I do know that when we go to the almonds we are mixing bees and mites from far and wide so it is demanding on the bees and their keepers. The migratory nature of beekeeping almost guarantees the spread of genes that are beneficial and some that are not. I suppose its all relative. I think we would do well to understand our common enemy more thoroughly.
JBJ


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Ferals in this area were non-existent just 6 years ago. Today, there is a small but significant population that is swarming and expanding. The interesting thing about the few swarms I have caught is that they show extremely low levels of varroa. I also have one colony derived from a Carniolan line that is in its third year untreated though they do have a measurable varroa population.

What is significant about this? The ferals all show signs of being smaller than managed colonies on large cell foundation. The first real success I had with getting properly drawn small cell (4.9) was with a feral swarm. The differences are also behavioral. These bees react rapidly to introduction of mites taken from infested colonies. I haven't observed closely enough to be sure exactly what happens, but I know that the mites disappear within 24 hours.

Fusion


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Fusion, what do mean by smaller? Body size or colony size? Are they easy to get along with?
JBJ


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Hello JBJ!

IMO, an experienced beekeeper needs no genetic analysis to make a reasonable assessment of the linage of a line of bees. My woodland ferals are of wild Italian ancestry with unique wild Italian body markings, bit heavier propolis characteristics and brooding characteristics that when taken together all but eliminate any substantial degree of genetic influence from any Carnolian, Commercial Italian, Caucasian and Russian bee of the types produced today. And that these bees were first noticed to recover in remote areas and now moving towards domestic beekeeping areas doe not suggest a recovery of ferals at the bee yards and expanding outwards as one would expect, if commercial bees were able to survive long term in the wild expanding outwards. Again, Im not saying that your bees arent contributing genetics to the feral population here in PA, I am saying that I just do not see evidence that suggests this is happening in my area. 

--Are you actually suggesting there are no genetic differences (resulting in degrees in virulence) in populations of Varroa mites?--(JBJ)

Not at all. Its just that I have seen this explanation used many times by beekeepers to explain away success of other beekeepers. Bees have been shipped all over the country, and so have the virulent mites. I doubt there is a beekeeper in western PA or anywhere the north east that will let anyone get away with the statement that the varroa here arent that virulent. 

--You can rest assured that there are genetic differences in populations of Varroa mites. I am not suggesting that your bees are not resistant, but just being feral does not guarantee a broad spectrum of resistance to a wider Varroa genome and set of environmental conditions. That said I would love to try some of your bees.--(JBJ) 

I am eager to get some of these bees out some bee experts specializing in behavioral characteristics to evaluate the allogrooming trait being exhibited by them. I first thought allogrooming was common in all ferals to some degree, but strangely enough, I am only seeing it in a single linage of feral bees that I have, others do not exhibit the behavior at all. 

I have described this trait many times on the lists with no response from breeders. And stated that occasionally during down times, hundreds of bees will be seen engaged in vigerous allogrooming on the entrance board. My suspicions are that it is playing a large role in the colonies resistance to varroa. I have also attempted several times to prompt breeders on Bee-L to describe allogrooming in their bees without response. So I am concluding that the degree of allogrooming I am seeing is rare, or maybe does not exist in other breeding opperations. So I want to get the trait documented by experts in my bees first, before shipping out these genetics.

Best Wishes,


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

very interesting comment pcolar about allogrooming. the term sounds a bit technical.... is this similar to social grooming?


in regards to the feral in your area pcolar I would think there would be a good proportion of german black bees (danish) in your area... since this was a fairly dominant breed used by hobbist (or at least it was the most common breed that I encounted during my very early bee keeping days in the western applachian mountains).


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

JBJ,

Physical size of the bees is smaller than commercial stocks. Overall traits and adaptations are similar to Italian but with modifications. I will describe averages but please remember that some colonies are significantly different. I only have 3 colonies of these bees at present so there is not much of a basis to draw conclusions.

Behavior is very calm. There is little to no running on the comb. I routinely open these bees with no more than 2 or 3 puffs of smoke.

Honey gathering is excellent and honey color is light. Its routine for an early swarm to make 2 shallow supers of light colored honey. This area has lots of plants that produce dark honey or honeydew so its very important to have bees that produce light colored honey.

In all of my commercial stocks, I can remove brood frames and easily count varroa on the bees. I can also pull sealed drone brood and find numerous mites. With the feral bees, I have not found a single mite sealed in the brood. I have not been able to find a single mite on the adult bees, but I also have not done anything serious like an ether roll to find them so this is based only on visual observation. I have these bees in an apiary that is infested with varroa. The bees are derived from Buckfast and Carniolan stock. The ferals are not from that immediate area, they originate about 10 miles to the west. When I remove mites from other colonies and place them in the feral colonies, the bees respond with a great deal of agitation. I have not been able to find any mites 24 hours later. This does not mean they don't exist, just means that I can't observe any on the bees or in the brood.

The ferals do not have a huge winter cluster like Italians. They are about midway between Buckfast (which usually have 2 or 3 frames of bees at this time of year) and Italian which typically cover 6 to 8 frames in December. I'm not sure if this is significant, just reporting what I see.

I'll be busy raising queens and splitting the few feral colonies I have next spring. I hope to cross these ferals with drones from the Purvis queens I bought in July.

Fusion


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Pcolar,

"IMO, an experienced beekeeper needs no genetic analysis to make a reasonable assessment of the linage of a line of bees."

The devil is in the details. Phenotype does not always reflect genotype. The only way to know for sure would be through genetic analysis. That is the precise reason I make no claims to the actual type or lineage of queens we market. The only thing I know for sure are the genetics of the breeders that were purchased initially, the locations the ferals that were caught, and that the queen mothers and daughters that have exhibited survivor abilities without acaricide since 2000. Open mating can be a crapshoot. I am sure there has been hybridization, but the phenotype of many of my favorites has not changed substantially. Sometimes there is a lot of uniformity in daughters and in other years there seems to be more variability. We just got an II set up which will make maintenance of separate lines easier. We are also going back to some isolated mating yards that we used to use in the late 90s, which may make drone saturation strategies more feasible.

Dr Sheppard and Meixner at WSU have done some extensive analysis of honeybee genetics and are often willing to exchange breeders; perhaps they may be a good start for the documentation you are looking for. So am I to assume the queens available on your website are not daughters of these groomers? Why are you hesitant to produce them for sale?

Allogrooming in bees is fairly well documented in studies of resistant lines of bees. The first studies where I have seen this term used was in reference to tracheal mites, but has been observed with some bees dealing with Varroa. It is essentially group grooming type of behavior where a bee with a phoretic mite (or other material) on it can solicit a grooming response from its cohorts. I believe allogrooming has been observed in Russians, Buckfasts and AHB.
JBJ


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--very interesting comment pcolar about allogrooming. the term sounds a bit technical.... is this similar to social grooming?--(Tecumseh)

Hello Tecumseh!

Yes! 
Allogrooming is when one or several bees grooms another. 
And autogrooming is when a bee grooms her self.

--in regards to the feral in your area pcolar I would think there would be a good proportion of german black bees (danish) in your area... since this was a fairly dominant breed used by hobbist (or at least it was the most common breed that I encounted during my very early bee keeping days in the western applachian mountains).--(Tecumseh)

I suppose it is possible. The bees look like dark Italians, but there could be some mix in there some where.

A friend offered to morph my bees for me a few years back. I may take him up on that offer.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--So am I to assume the queens available on your website are not daughters of these groomers? Why are you hesitant to produce them for sale?--(JBJ)

Yes they are. But what made me hesitant to sell them out without documentation is that once in the hands of a breeder, it becomes a trait that they developed, and they never heard of that guy in Pennsylvania.

Also:
1, that the behavior is so very intense. 
2. the behavior simply does not match Seeleys description of an invitation dance prompting the allogrooming.
3. An invitation dance is conspicuously absent in these bees.
4. The groomers in their actions are without a doubt, on patrol seeking bees to groom, grooming one bee and leaving that bee to groom another, seeking and grooming.
5. the location that the grooming seems to occur at the parameters of the nest and entrance area, not in the nest area as others have stated it occurs.
6. By the absence of grooming in the nest interior and location of the grooming, Im assuming this trait becomes prominent in these bees at the same time or around the age that they become guard bees.


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

[BTW, averages about 50% culling in the first 18 weeks and makes me a bad beekeeper I guess.] 

Bad? Um maybe not, aggressive might be the more polite way we might say it among friends [smile]. 
{ambitious? - yeah that works too.)

Joe you have had such a significant contributions to this and other forums that I'd be nothing short of disrespectful to knock your methods. I respect you do what you believe is correct, and whether I agree or not is solely my problem to sort out in during my beekeeping career. 

The concept I was trying to convey is that there are different focus between beekeepers and that there are different focus between bee colonies. A lot of this plays on genetics and until we have an absolute solid grasp on what characteristics are dominant or recessive, know how genes interact, and strickly AI our queens, every mating is a craps shot toss of the dice. (though less so the more we learn and explore the better our odds.)

Sometimes I think folks cull because their primary goal isn't met (not gentle enough) and I think there is often an secondary impact(s) (too gentle could equal less vigor) an unrecognized idea.
Every cull and cross has its trade off(s). 
I know, I don't know enough, to be culling anything (yet). 

At this point I'm just borrowing God's bee's and he's not given me any authority to dispose of any yet. (Doesn't mean I haven't needed to repent for some bad splits I lost - ouch.) Live and learn. 

Whats enjoyable is none of us are intentionally malice (there might be a few trouble makers - ya know who you are!) All-in-all we can have this deeper conversation without a 'tail-gater fight'. 
Thats how we bring value to this forum.

[...can solicit a grooming response from its cohorts.] -JBJ 

Some have also documented better self-grooming with the middle set of legs which dislodges mites. Both amount to better mite drops. This grooming response is an acculative genetic trait (queens with it mated with drones with it intensify the probability that offspring will also have it.) However cross breeding can quickly diminish it. I could be hesitant to sell SMR or hygenic titled bees just because your image as a queen rearer could be harmed by other beekeepers practices of open mating (resulting in less hygenic/smr bees). 
People always have inflated expecations (and beekeepers are even worse!)

-jeff


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

It is truly a pleasure to engage in such apicultural discussions. This forum is an incredible asset to the bee community. A great place to share opinions and exchange facts. Beekeeping will be the better for it all. Sometimes there will be differences of opinion and "facts" may be debatable, but what better place to have the discussion? Could this possibly be a great place for peer review of scientific work?

Joe, I think it would be a great service to the industry if you were to follow up with deeper analysis of the genetics of these groomer bees. This information would be handy for helping identify other stocks of bees that may be beneficial to bees and their keepers (sometimes I wonder who is keeping who). 
JBJ


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

NW sezs:
At this point I'm just borrowing God's bee's and he's not given me any authority to dispose of any yet. (Doesn't mean I haven't needed to repent for some bad splits I lost - ouch.) Live and learn. 

tecumseh responds:
exactly


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

<At this point I'm just borrowing God's bee's and he's not given me any authority to dispose of any yet.>

If we ever get past this point, we should be able to really mess up the beekeeping industry forever and even possably destroy the honeybee as a species. People have shown the ability to do that in a lot of other areas.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

This discussion is another reason why any beekeeper serious about breeding bees and selecting for certain traits should install Observation hives. At the moment I have two. I will be putting in more. The knowledge obtained is vastly superior to monitoring bees within standard hives.

The details that Joe explains can be seen in observation hives, and harder to observe in disturbed/opened hives. The first time you see a bee beg for grooming, or a bee seeking out mites to groom off other bees really makes you think that there is hope against the mites in a natural way.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Hey fellows,
JW:
Would you please define "Allogrooming". 

Thanks,
Albert

PS: Gosh, I really have to brush up on my biology and and genetics. Its been over twenty years and I'm loving the discussion!


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Allogrooming - is when one or several bees grooms another.

Autogrooming - is when a bee grooms her self.

[ December 06, 2006, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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