# How Does One Go About "Isolating" Breeds?



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

It can only be done by geographically isolating a purebred population. For example, you could buy an island in the Caribbean that is 50 miles from any other islands, stock it with a purebred strain of bees,ban all ships from docking at the island so you would not accidentally import a stray swarm, and from that point forward, they would remain pure bred. This was done over a century ago when pure Italian stock was brought to Kangaroo Island AU. There is one huge problem though. Over time, genetic drift resulted in loss of the sex differentiation alleles so that rather than 12 alleles normally occurring in Italians, there are now only 5 on Kangaroo Island. The reality is that isolated populations are subject to much faster genetic drift than much larger but not isolated populations.

DarJones


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

are sure thats not 5 miles?


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

I agree with Fusion 100% on this one. 

The further the better. I read somewhere that drones have been known to fly 17 km 
on extemely rare occasions. So why take a chance go the 50 miles to make sure. The 
remote island idea is probably the best way. I read that Kangaroo Island story too. 
It said that that was the last refuge of pure italian bees left in the world. 
If that's possible?

Slovenia has the best approach I think. Only carniolans are allowed to be 
raised in that country. That's as pure as you can get I think. I wish I had 
some Slovenia carniolans now.

If there's any other beekeepers near you it will be very hard. Even flooding 
your area with your drones isn't 100% a certain way to achieve your goal if
another person has bees nearby.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Okay, well I guess I knew that true isolation would take a distant island or something, but I'm asking about the more common, real-world approaches people use. 

A variety of breeders are selling bees under specific titles such as "Buckfast", "Carniolan", "Italian", etc., and they're not all talking about artificial insemination.

So I'm wondering about how people raise bees with relatively stable genetic traits... Without having to move to a remote island.

Adam


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

Check this out Adam,


I created a thread so more people could see it faster.

Since hybrid bees can be mean and it would be nice to have 
an apiary of different bees to see how they all do for personal 
reasons. Without them all crossbreeding.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ithout-Artificial-Insemination.-Can-This-Work

I hope my idea works out for all of us.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

If you look on a map, the island is nowhere near 50 miles from the mainland, more like 5 to 10 miles.


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

Wi-beek,

You better re-read this thread. Which island you talking about that is 5 to 10 miles away?
Fusion mentioned an something about buying an island in the Caribbean 50 miles away from 
the other islands there. He never said Kangaroo island in Australia was 50 miles away from 
mainland Australia nor did I. If that's what your trying to say? 

Kangaroo island is actually 13+ kilometers according to Google Earth from mainland Australia
if you need to know. But that's not the 50 miles he indicated. He was talking about somewhere 
in the Caribeans.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

My bad.


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## bernsad (Aug 15, 2011)

I understand that the Kangaroo Is. bees have been genetically identified as having come from France.


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

For those people who are wondering about this Kangaroo Island.

Here's a link to some info on it.

http://www.nativefoodandwine.com/features-journal/the-ligurian-bees-of-kangaroo-island.html


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Adam, I started out trying to have an isolated mating yard in the Adirondacks...similar to what Mraz and Webster did. I got to thinking, what genes was I leaving back in the valley? Who am I to choose a line or two to isolate...Did I pick the correct breeders...What the heck do I know? I'm not God and I can't predict the future.

So I decided to quit the isolated mating yard plan and rather flood my mating area with good stocks from my whole operation and also take advantage of the Mraz drones up the road. I think this plan has worked well for me.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm guessing that the short answer to the question is - you don't. However I believe you can still make real noticeable progress.

My bees are not at all isolated, but they are probably more than half of the local population of domestic bees - feral bees have become kind of rare in my area.

Last year I had quite a lot of yard guards (head butters) and what I call "jumpers" - bees that would jump out and sting you on the hand as soon as you removed the lid. This year I raised some of my own queens - from gentle hives - and requeened any and all hives that developed an attitude. Now I have gentle bees, no yard guards or jumpers. 

They *might* be lazy, and not make a honey crop (although I tried to select for that too) but they don't sting for no particular reason.

Scientifically I know that this could all be a coincidence, but I'm proceeding with the theory that I *can* select for desirable traits even without isolation.

If you concentrate on cordovan queens you can at least have an indicator of how many outside drones are involved - if it really even matters.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Mike and David,

This is quite interesting, as I have wondered about this recently a lot. I am looking ahead to rearing queens myself, and I have been wondering how best to start. Does one begin with a great "pure-bred" queen and then hope for the best? Or is it best to begin with local, overwintered queens and build from there? I guess it comes down to one's personal goals and the bees available.

It seems to me that it would be very difficult to truly isolate bees anyway. How would you do that? You could look high and low for bees and beekeepers, but you could still miss them. And even if you get some apiary isolated, there's no telling when another swarm is going to take up residence close enough to start mating with your bees.

So you guys are basically "overrunning" a given area with your bee populations, and just stacking the odds. You focus on selecting for the traits you want, and then figure that your numbers stack the odds in favor of those traits.

Pretty un-scientific, but short of artificial insemination, I don't know what else you can do. They guys like Kirk who are "isolating" are still playing the same game, but by searching out remote areas, they are just bettering their odds that much more.

Adam


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## kenr (Sep 25, 2005)

What I'm thinking of doing is getting some cardboard nucs and putting frames of eggs from the hives I like and just leave them alone and let them swarm as many times as they wan't to.I'll put the nucs in the old house That I was raised in.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I too have thought of creating an isolated mating yard, but have yet been unable to get there. So, since I don't yet have an isolated mating yard, my strategy has been to "flood" the area with the drones I wish my queens to mate with. Since there are an unknown quantity of undesirable or even AHB drones in my local drone congregation areas I believe doing this has been my best compromise and has provided me with acceptable results.

Since I raise queens that are homozygous for the cordovan color trait, their worker/queen progeny can only exhibit the cordovan trait if they were fathered by drones that also carry the cordovan trait. So far, most cordovan daughter queens have shown to be mated with many cordovan drones, though not exclusively so. Many of my daughter queens produce a varying percentage of workers that also exhibit the cordovan trait.

Bottom line, my first generation, open mated, daughter queens rarely develop colonies with undesirable traits picked up by mating with undesirable drones.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Even if you are open mating in a fairly populated area, given the multiple matings of the queen, a certain percent off every colony will be pure bred... You just have to graft and raise your queens, then cull the virgins that look like crosses.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> How could one be sure that there were'nt other genetics getting in there from other bees?


 Choose what you believe to be an isolated mating site and set it up with several mating nucs,making sure they are drone free,if none of your virgin queens get mated at all,ever,then your site is isolated enough, you can then set it up with your desired drone mother colonies,and mating nucs.
In europe much of the mating is done using islands, and other isolated mating stations,Denmark for example has around 12/13 sites with different drone lines on, and to send your virgin queens to and get mated,and also differnt sites you can choose from for AMM,Ligustica,Carnica..ect.


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## oldreliable (Jan 29, 2011)

I call BS when advertisements go out selling certain breeds...no such thing and if there were in todays world it wouldnt take long to cross strain..soo I raise HONEY BEES...dont care if its buckfast, carnies, etc...as long as its a good layer that developed a great hives and one colony working together in step with nature. 

KISS method..like grandpa used to do with great results


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

oldreliable said:


> I call BS when advertisements go out selling certain breeds...no such thing and if there were in todays world it wouldnt take long to cross strain.


 In Slovenia they have only Carnica,no other breed of bee is allowed into the country by law.So it is carnica or nothing.

And of course Buckfast is more about a breeding system,selection,and new lines are incorported into these.
So relys on the skill of the breeder doing this selection.


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