# No. of combs in wild



## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

For those who have seen bees build combs not restricted by space, how many combs do you see on an average? Was just wondering we discuss 8 v/s 10 frame hives, how many do bees build if given an option?
Thanks..


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

I removed one hive that the bees built in the open area under the eve of a house. 

They had only been there about 3-4 months, so we can't be sure they wouldn't have built more - but they had about 7 full size combs and 3 or 4 more partial and wavy combs.

The whole thing was beautiful white wax, so I know it was pretty new.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Eventually they fill the space available. If it's between joists in a floor there will be MANY short combs. If it's in a tree with not much horizontal space there will be very few combs that run from top to bottom. Bees space them about 1 1/4" for brood and 1 1/2" for honey storage. They put as many combs in as will fit and fill the last little bit with either a real fat one or a real skinny one to fill the space. Bees are just looking for an acceptable cavity of an appropriate volume (if they can find the appropriate volume). They don't really care how that space is distributed, so they just build the number of combs that fit.

If you want to try to figure what the hollow of a tree usually comes to, that's a different question. I'm not sure, but from what I've seen you'd seldom (but occasionally) see one that's much more than 16" in diameter inside.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I think one should distinguish between feral colonies in natural habitat(trees) and one that take up IMO, unnatural habitat(houses).

Yes, bees will eventually fill a wall of a home with comb that will be rather large and extensive. But for a much longer period of time, bees have used natural habitat, such as tree cavities.

Most natural habitat that supports bee colonies are on average much smaller than the multiple box hives we as beekeepers provide them. Most feral colonies build in much smaller cavities than we realize. We provide unnaturally large homes to maximize honey production, allow bigger brood cycles, and even use it to suppress swarming, among other things.

In the natural state of smaller colonies, and programed over many thousands of years, bees keep smaller colonies, replace comb, swarm more often due to less space, and thereby replace queens more often than what we are accustomed too. As beekeepers we want bigger brood nests, more honey produced, and less swarming. Nothing wrong with that, other than perhaps suggesting that beekeepers should understand the relationship of the various methods we use, versus what the bees would do in the natural state.

I have seen a few colonies in trees. Most approached the volume of one deep, and none of them exceeded the volume of two deeps. Think about that next time you have a colony with two deep brood chambers and 6 supers or more piled on top. I'm all for a huge honey crop, but I am also trying to balance what we want, against what is best for the bees.

If bees were given an option (an option dictated by available habitat in the natural setting), bees would build less than what we provide. There is nothing wrong with eight frame boxes. You just need to adjust your timing, as the boxes fill sooner, etc.

[ February 06, 2007, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I don't think that any modern beekeeper can look
at a colony in a tree and learn anything about 
the maximum "natural" size of a hive, as there
are very very few areas with the large oaks that
used to be more common. Forests are owned, and
"managed", resulting in "harvesting" of trees
before they get really big, and long before they
might rot out enough to create a decent hive
cavity.

As far as 8-frame versus 10-frame, the idea 
here is to reduce the weight of the gear, and
make working bees less taxing on the beekeeper.
I'd expect that the bees would expand to about
the same number of brood frames in either box 
size under equal conditions.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Jim, I knew someone would give the old "they don't have trees like they did years ago" comment. And I think there is some truth to it. But I also have taken part in feral bee studies in state forests that have old growth. And its not like we don't have trees like they did years ago, perhaps less, but they are still here. It does not change the fact that most feral hives using natural habitat have smaller colonies in smaller volume cavities. To make a blanket statement and suggest that nothing can be learned is wrong in my opinion. Studying feral colonies in the wild can teach you many things. Sorry to dissagree.

[ February 06, 2007, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

Thanks for the responses.. 
Bjorn, my intension is also to balance between the two(wild and managed). I want to know how they do it in a natural environment and try to keep my "beekeeping" as close to that as possible. hope I make sense here


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

balhanapi,

Your making sense....  

I'll take just a few points about natural nesting sites and feral bees. You can see how things are sometimes interconected.

I heard many times about changing out the comb. In some countries, comb is changed over every 5 years or so. Its standard practice. Didn't mean too much to me, when I saw beekeepers around me brag about having comb 30-40- or even 50 years old. I thought, "Man, thats efficient".

Once I started looking at feral colonies, asking old timers who colloected ferals 50 years back, and researching some information, several things were apparent. They included...

*Bees swarm more than what I thought in a natural setting. Was it genetics, was it smaller cavities, or something else? (I could go on all day. The point is, they swarm alot more than what we want them too.

*Bees are culled in the north in feral sites at somewhere about 40 to 60%. Thats a whole lot of selection going on.

*Bees will fail to become queenright in about 25% of the hives that swarm or supercede. 

If you see that there is a natural culling by natural forces(40 to 60%), know that hives do in fact swarm more with smaller cavities(25% chance of hive failure), this swarming may cause colony collaspe with each swarm or supercedue due to the apparent risk in the mating flights,...I can assume that comb is changed over in feral colonies more than the 30 to 50 year cylcle most beekeepers brag about.

I doubt that in feral colonies, that most comb exceeds 5 to 10 years. I'm not saying it may not happen, but on average, I would calculate with winter kill and colony failure for whatever reason, comb is destroyed by wax moths, and new comb is constructed from time to time. Most comb I have taken from feral colonies are no doubt newer, and you can see the replacement comb apparently built back after comb damage from mice or wax moth damage, maybe even the bees doing it themselves(?). It is clear that this comb is nowhere near the age of comb that the average old-timer beekeeper has in his hives. Thats for sure.

I beleive that nature is efficient with resources. I don't think that super sized hives that beekeepers take pictures of, happen in the natural setting. I am sure there are some large ones. But on average, resources are focused on whats needed for survival, not excess honey for beekeepers. These resources are focused on the procreation of the species. Anything beyond survival or procreation would be considered "waste' by nature. Nature allows the hives that collect just enough for survival, and rewards those with the genetics to procreate many times.

I started out looking for ferals for one reason or another. Its hard to research or study one item, without seeing the interconnection of the entire picture. I know my management can not copy every aspect of some feral colony in the wild. But understanding how bees survive in nature, may influence one thing or another.

It did not mean alot to me, to know that some change over comb. Understanding and seeing that nature does it all the time, makes for a clearer picture, and the benefits should be considered.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

I noticed about the same relationship to volume/behavior in my tbhs as noted above. The bees are quite capable of thriving in about 2 deeps. And that's about the same volume a European swarm prefers.

In my tbhs, when the bees occupy that amount of space, and pack it with honey, hive activity is greatly reduced even when additional space and nectar resources are available. The bees just don't mindlessly raise extra brood or process additional stores beyond their basic needs.

The seasonal dynamics are very different for a vertically managed Lang hive. As the bees prepare for winter, they are driven to pack the area above the broodnest core which is poorly defined in a hive with a single cell size. And in a vertical hive, there's lots of empty vertical space which takes advantage of this kind of bee behavior.

The same kind of bees managed these two different ways will look quite different throughout the season. In my tbhs, the bees population will start out smaller and will more closely mirror environmental conditions. They seem to be more robust and can handle dramatic fluctuations caused by drought, queen failures, etc without my intervention. They can survive and thrive without any attention from me. But they don't produce as much honey. And their early small spring populations wouldn't be an asset to an almond pollinator who wants hives that are way out of balance with the season.

The same bees, in my Langs, can be pushed for large spring populations, more honey production, etc. But, I think that pushing them creates problems which require additional attention and more work. Checker boarding will alleviate much of the beekeepers early spring work. But the other bee related problems still require attention.

I run hives both ways. The more natural way sets me free from the time pressures associated with beekeeping. When I have other priorities that take my time, I really appreciate my tbhs and think I should get rid of the Langs. But when I revert to my old beekeeping ways and get intensive, I appreciate the Langs flexibility and productivity.

Regards
Dennis

[ February 06, 2007, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: D. Murrell ]


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## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the insight..


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Thanks alot Dennis! Another "to do" item for this year.  

I hadn't even thought about looking at my TBH in ways to associate living conditions with feral colonies, etc.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

There has been many excellent studies examining what size/quality cavity the bees prefer for nesting. The answer is that 1) bees distinguish little as to the material the cavity is made from 2) shade/dryness is generally preferred 3) AHB like much smaller cavities, but most bees will take something like the size of one deep 10 frame (20 L?) cavity. They build comb to fill the cavity size as MB mentioned. Do a search on "Morse" and "nesting cavities" 
Ous modern hives both 8 and 10 frame are just fine for EHB, and probably a bit larger than AHB likes for nesting.


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