# Worker bees tearing down 25% of my queen cells almost everytime.



## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Here is my setup I run a 5 frame nuc as a starter then I move the cells over to a queen right finisher. Standard set-up. Queen in bottom deep excluder queencells in top deep. I usually remove 1 frames of open brood so there is a surplus of nurse bees. I am only building 20 to 30 cells at a time and they are getting them capped good. But then they tear down about 25% of the cells. Why are they doing this? Culling bad queens? :scratch: No virgins running around either...It happens everytime. Maybe I should use a different hive for a builder. Any suggestions or insights?

-Dan


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Dan, I am seeing the same thing. I graft 30 cells per hive in 2 hives. They usually cap 28 or 29 out of thirty. But between capping and time to pull them and place in nucs they will tear down several more. Usually only have 20 to 22 by time I pull.

They obviosly sense that they are bad but I don't know why. I am considering getting an incubator and moving them as soon as capped. Only problem is those they are tearing down probably don't need to go into nucs.

Johnny


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

It's the lack of nurse. It happens when it gets hot and the flow starts to dwindle... the work force is dwindling because foragers that worked the flow are dying off and older nurses are stepping up to take their place, all while the queen is slowing due to the smaller amounts of nectar coming in... 

To protect against this issue, you have to keep in mind that you don't just need strong queenless starters, but you also need to keep your builders under the swarm instinct... rob a few frames of emerging brood from other hives and place them below the excluder with the queen, move three to four frames of open brood to the top surrounding the cells, and feed to keep the queen stimulated... if they are getting honey bound, pull those frames out when putting in the emerging brood... this will solve the issue quickly and get you back on the right track.

Hope this helps.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Would it be correct to assume that the reason for adding EMERGING brood is to add to the number of nurse bees?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Exactly... but it also gives the queen a place to lay so that the excess bees will not cause a swarming "issue" instead of just fueling their instincts...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

To better explain... there is a balance within the colony of nurses, brood at different stages, and foragers... the queen determines this balance by calculating each variable and adjusting her laying accordingly... the weather and time of year (flows, dearths, etc) effect her decisions... so to correct the situation where the season has cause more house bees and foragers than nurses, you must use other colonies to provide an over abundance of nurses... knocking the colony out of balance and simulating the balance that they would have in mid spring when cell building is naturally at its best.

Hope this helps.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Broke-T said:


> Dan, I am seeing the same thing. I graft 30 cells per hive in 2 hives. They usually cap 28 or 29 out of thirty. But between capping and time to pull them and place in nucs they will tear down several more. Usually only have 20 to 22 by time I pull.
> 
> They obviosly sense that they are bad but I don't know why. I am considering getting an incubator and moving them as soon as capped. Only problem is those they are tearing down probably don't need to go into nucs.
> 
> Johnny


Johnny, I just thought of something. My cell builder that I'm using is ran by a VSH queen from you. Wonder if the hygenic queens are also a cause for bees to be more picky with the capped queen cells? The queens I got from you in the spring are awesome by the way! :applause:


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> To better explain... there is a balance within the colony of nurses, brood at different stages, and foragers... the queen determines this balance by calculating each variable and adjusting her laying accordingly... the weather and time of year (flows, dearths, etc) effect her decisions... so to correct the situation where the season has cause more house bees and foragers than nurses, you must use other colonies to provide an over abundance of nurses... knocking the colony out of balance and simulating the balance that they would have in mid spring when cell building is naturally at its best.
> 
> Hope this helps.


The last 5 frame starter I made with nurse bees got added to the finisher when I moved cells at 24 hours. I figured the extra nurse bees would help, but I still had the same problemb with cells being tore down. We still have a decent flow going on here right now as well. So I'm still scratching my head. Maybe I'll just graft more then I need...Thanks for the pointers everyone! :thumbsup:


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Vsh adds a whole new issue... was your vsh queen mated to vsh drones resulting in a somewhat neurotic colony? The level of vsh drone availability vs none vsh drone availability during mating is important to know for selecting colonies that will be used as finishers.

We shy away from any stock with higher levels of vsh due to their destructive nature... a few years back I used a few primorsky hives for finishers and had a cell destruction rate of over 50% each time... so to test a theory, we set up side-by-sides using primorsky, vsh, and three banded Italians which were showing the least vsh of our stocks...50%+ cell destruction rate for the primorsky, 28% for the vsh, and 0% for the Italians...

while vsh can be a useful tool for colonies to defeat mites, it has to be kept in check by selection and placement practices... I have noted that colonies with very high levels of vsh have a tendency to remove healthy brood as if they are in "self destruct" mode and may even cause a flux that can lead to more mite production than they would have had under normal circumstances... the only queens that I have ever seen mites on were primorsky and pure vsh. Just something to consider when selecting drone colonies for mating vsh queens as well as when selecting finishers...

That possible issue aside... the nurses from the starter may not have been enough to make the difference... the second round of cells in that starter will tell you if it was or not... usually it takes a little while to see the effects... the placement of the emerging brood combs in the lower chamber and more open brood in the upper chamber will help in more ways than just adding an abundance of nurses, its important to combine the queenless and swarm instincts... again it sets the colony back into a "mid-spring/swarm season" mentality.

Hope this helps.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Next round of cells I'll set up another non VSH hive for a cell finisher and see what happens. Your 28% cell destruction rate is almost dead on for what I'm seeing with this cell builder. Thanks for the info!


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Thanks Dan. My cell builders are queens from last year so no VSH. They are natural daughters of some cordavans I bought to try. Very gental and prolific but not very mite resistant.

Robert, Dans queens are from VSH breeder open mated to non VSH drones.

Johnny


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

I have been getting quite a few cells torn down, not quite that many. About 30% of the capped cells don't have a larvae in them just a gray goo. I've tried to find something about black queen cell virus and how to prevent it but am not having much luck. There are a lot of other queen breeders in the area having the same problem. any information would be appreciated.
thanks
Jim


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

To start with, keep your grafting needles sterilized. I just drop my stainless needles in a bottle of alcohol. While grafting I occasionally dip the needle in alcohol and dry it with a clean paper towel. Black queen cell virus is easily transferred on unsterilized tools.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

thanks Fish stix. I usually use a Chinese grafting tool, but sometimes I use a stainless steel needle. I have tried using alcohol to clean the grafting tool the last couple of times I grafted. I thought I read somewhere that it was associated with Nosema but I can't find it again . Like I said I'm not the only one having a problem and it seems to happen later in the year. I'm still looking for information on the cause and prevention of BQCV. Thanks again,
Jim


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## olympic (Aug 20, 2006)

The problem is caused by coumaphos residue in the combs you are using.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

I don't think so. All our frames are new wood with plastic foundation. We buy it unwaxed and coat with our own wax. We are treatment free and have never used coumaphos in our hives.

Johnny


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## gennetika (Aug 31, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> It's the lack of nurse. It happens when it gets hot and the flow starts to dwindle... the work force is dwindling because foragers that worked the flow are dying off and older nurses are stepping up to take their place, all while the queen is slowing due to the smaller amounts of nectar coming in...
> 
> To protect against this issue, you have to keep in mind that you don't just need strong queenless starters, but you also need to keep your builders under the swarm instinct... rob a few frames of emerging brood from other hives and place them below the excluder with the queen, move three to four frames of open brood to the top surrounding the cells, and feed to keep the queen stimulated... if they are getting honey bound, pull those frames out when putting in the emerging brood... this will solve the issue quickly and get you back on the right track.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Russell,
How often should this be done in the finishers?? With 1 time should be enough? and after that just rotating frames between the 2 brood chambers??
In the case of a vertical starter like the one G.Fert describes in his book (i don't know if you know this system, i guess you do it's very simple), how would you do this? i mean how would you manage the starter by adding what brood?, in what chamber? knowing that the lower chamber is queenless and works with no brood at all, that's supposed to be the secret of his starter, queenrigth, suddenly queenless, no brood, just nurses, lots of pollen, and food. 
How would you take this kind of starter to the limit??
thank you.


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