# The BEST queens are mated after the Solstice...



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

- I've heard this said by people who I highly respect, and I have observed Post Solstice queens to lay like crazy during fall buildup. Enough so that I try to get them in most of my hives by Sept 1st. All of my queens (except a couple of "special" ones) were PS and survived the last cold winter. 

But that could just be me and my confirmation bias seeing patterns where none exist.

Is there any *evidence* that this is true? Do really experienced beekeepers believe it? 

The Summer Solstice is about a week away - time to get busy if you're a believer.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I guess ill find out got a colony drawing queen cells as we speak


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Would that be mated after the Solstice or grafted and mated after the Solstice?


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## Paulemar (Aug 28, 2013)

Honey-4-All said:


> Would that be mated after the Solstice or grafted and mated after the Solstice?


 According to the newly released book "SWARM ESSENTIALS" by Stephen Repasky (Wicwas Press) 

"Observations have shown that re-queening a colony with a queen that was raised and mated after the summer solstice of the previous year swarm less than queens that were raised prior to the summer solstice. These young queens are vigorous layers and are still young enough to produce plenty of queen substance to keep the swarming impulse to a minimum."

That sounds to me like a win, win!


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I've been suspicious that it is the main flow that comes before the Solstice, thus the good queens.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have observed that a 6 month queen is at her prime in laying. So if this observation is true in practice then
these queens are at their best laying time when all conditions are meet. A young vigorous queen is very eager to lay compare to a slow old queen. Still, a swarm control is needed so they don't back fill the nest on the Spring flow. So I will try to make some August queens to compare to. So far our Spring queens are laying like crazy now.


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

these are questions i tried to find answers to last year. does it make a difference which side of the solstice the egg gets laid or is it important at all. Mel Disselkoen talks about the 43rd parallel. i believe i as are you David in the 36th parallel does this shift the time of the solstice and does it matter at all. i made up about 15 nucs last year with home grown queens in the begining of july and brought 12 thru to this spring some very weak but once the early flows started they took off. now i'm getting ready raise some queens to make up a bunch more. trying to get it done before sour wood ends. i'd like to start earlier but i want to get it done on the right side of the solstice just incase it does make a difference. i like to know what Michael Palmer thinks about this.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

We had several nucs we made queenless on the tenth of this month. they produced queen cells. those queens will not mate until after the solstice. Although they will have been reared prior to it for the most part.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Queens raised in June will continue to lay during the summer darth instead of shutting down the way an overwintered queen does. The solstice has nothing to do with it.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't know - which is why I brought it up. But I do know that many living things are profoundly affected by day length - and if days are getting longer or shorter. 

I know some of the most impressive brood production I have ever observed has been from queens which just started laying at the beginning of the fall build up. It's like they know they only have a short time to get the job done. Which they very well may.


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## norton (Mar 19, 2005)

Our best queens are raised in October and November - they expand the following spring like rockets.


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

I started re-queening all of my hives yearly in July and August a couple years ago with summer raised queens. The first thing I noticed was a better winter survivor rate along with a more vigorous spring buildup which was coupled with less swarming. It was an immediate and noticeable result. I then started making my splits in the summer rather than spring. That resulted in wintered nucs with young vigorous queens practically exploding in the spring and building up and producing nice honey yields in their first year.

In a nutshell, I personally do believe that summer queens have many benefits over "older" queens. I think that saying "after the summer solstice" is a general statement that gives a somewhat standard timeline to follow. I think that a queen raised after the spring buildup and main flow would fall into that category. 

Mike


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't know if there is anything "magical" about the solstice, but the bees are more inclined to raise queens, there are more drones for them to mate with, and there is often a flow so the queens are well fed about that time. Queens raised early are not well fed and are not well bred (not enough drones and bad flying weather).


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## norton (Mar 19, 2005)

It all depends on where you live. Our drone populations are at their peak in April and queens don't often start laying until sixteen days after the cells are put into the nucs.

Even though drone populations are at a much lower level in late Autumn, the queens are often laying ten days after the cells are placed in the nucs - obviously there is a sense of urgency in the air for the queens to mate and start laying as soon as possible before winter. These fall queens are usually good for two seasons in honey production colonies.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I would say the best matings happen a bit earlier during prime swarming season but perhaps your strongest wintering hives may well be headed by queens mated closer to the summer solstice if not a bit beyond because of the delayed mite buildup time.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I would think the best queens would be the ones that mated around May or June here (YMMV) since there seems to be a ton of drone that time of year. My bees seem to make a ton of drone at first and after that not as much. I think the reason that Georgia package bees stink (no offense to the Georgia beeks on the board meant) is that the queens are breed with too few drones. I would think that if there was a decent amount of drones they would produce exceptional queen bees.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

shannonswyatt said:


> I would think the best queens would be the ones that mated around May or June here (YMMV) since there seems to be a ton of drone that time of year. My bees seem to make a ton of drone at first and after that not as much. I think the reason that Georgia package bees stink (no offense to the Georgia beeks on the board meant) is that the queens are breed with too few drones. I would think that if there was a decent amount of drones they would produce exceptional queen bees.


I had to snicker at this comment due to my personal results with May queens this year. Most of them ended up dead. Not what I would consider better mated at the very least. I will be able to compare to June queens in a couple of weeks.

My point if I have one is there are far more factors than numbers of drones to consider. Since queens only need 20 or so drones I am not sure that tons would make much of a difference. You only need 20 or so and that they all find your queen. It may be that drones themselves are better reared and healthier earlier in the year.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I've had very good results with queens mated in late June through early August. They lay well for winter then come into spring fully ready for a honey flow. Swarming tendency is significantly reduced.

Daniel, the issue re commercially reared queens is that the queen producer needs thousands of drones to properly mate the number of queens they raise. They also need good weather for the queen to fly. Between low numbers of drones in early spring and poor flying conditions, many queens get shipped that are not properly mated. There have been a few studies on this, the last I remember was written up about 20 years ago.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> I don't know if there is anything "magical" about the solstice, but the bees are more inclined to raise queens, there are more drones for them to mate with, and there is often a flow so the queens are well fed about that time. Queens raised early are not well fed and are not well bred (not enough drones and bad flying weather).


Now this makes perfect sense to me! If the queens are raised with a good flow or fed well at least, then given access to good healthy Mature Drones to mate with, it would stand to reason that the queens would be better queens all around... As Michael B points out, queens raised early are not well fed and don't have enough mature drones to breed with.. It takes 35 days for a drone to mature to readiness, that would mean the big producers are having to start drone rearing in FEB in most cases to get enough to take care of the amount of queens being produced.. Is that really an ideal way to get them mated??? Don't think so myself.. IMO


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Well, I have this Virgin that just hatched in the last 2-3 days. Guess she will be my test subject. Assuming all goes well in her travels. Hated to see the other supersceded, She had just returned and was laying great for a week before they made their decision. Maybe it was for the best. The rest of my spring queens are laying great. G


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

Anyone have a good idea on how to minimize robbing when making up summer nucs?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

RichardsonTX said:


> Anyone have a good idea on how to minimize robbing when making up summer nucs?


Limit Entrance size to 1 bee width, keep NUC's away from parent hives (or any larger hives), IF you feed with EO don't till after it has got a laying queen, MAKE your nuc's during a flow if possible, and at first sign of robbing, move the hive or put on a robber screen.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Carry your splits to a new location and reduce entrances especially on nucs occupying less than half their available space.
Do not use essential oils!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*With hive conditions being equal* (Newly drawn frames, no old spotty frames, plenty of feed) my 2 & 3 year old queens perform no different than a newly mated one, no matter what the season.
This frame was drawn and filled this last sumer by a 2012 queen after being 'freshened' onto new frames in a simualted swarm.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P6080600_zpsbe0a8103.jpg

Older queens get blamed for a lot of slow downs, when it may be the beekeeper that has allowed the entire colony to slack on performance.

By removing ALL frames of brood and feed from an overwintered colony, (Except one frame of open brood to keep them from possibly absconding) you stimulate them to immediatly grab a gear. Watch those older queens tighten patterns up & lay like crazy when they are once again given a blank slate. 

You also modivate the bees to 'manage' their older queen as they would a new young one. The motivation of the lack of brood and stores is a powerful one. Everyone gets to work.

Although you can do this most any time spring and early summer, my favorite time is in the dearth period between my maple flow and the main flow.
With plenty of feed, the simulated swarm will draw out and fill several new frames in just a week's time. By the time the main flow arrives they will usually have 2 deeps full of newly drawn frames, brood and a large population of young bees. Not to mention all those nucs you made from the frames you took away.
I've just gotten 18 frames drawn with syrup and filled with new brood, just in time for them to take over filling the supers with the real stuff.

If I had not done this, overwintered colonies like this would have just 'hung out' in between flows and not done much more than exist and possibly think about swarming. Feeding an overwintered colony to stimulate brood production before the main flow can be a recipe for swarming.
Feeding an overwintered colony that has been redirected to rebuild before the main flow is a recipe for performance.
In their mind, they have already swarmed. 


The down side to this, is you end up with a tremendous amout of bees & nucs. It's the best way I know how to get a LOT of new frames drawn -immediatly upon demand. 

Maybe a bit less honey overall, but not by much if your timing is right for your area. You can always remove the young queens form those nucs you made and combine the resources back with the original hives to create less hives with more volume. 
Don't forget the advantage of the _brood break _you just gave all the colonies.

That's my .02. I'm no expert when it comes to massive honey production-to take this info as you will.

Just be sure your colony has a good population of both foragers that will return to the established queen in the old location with the new frames and feeder, and the brood frames you took away have sufficient numbers of young bees that will stay in the new nucs to avoid chilled brood. There is no shaking/brushing of bees and no confining with this method- and done within a single location.

This is also a great way to get your mini frames drawn and filled quickly for springtime use. Give them to a simulated swarm or shaken bees with nothing else to work on._ Don't forget to feed them._ No protein until the queen has started laying up the comb..about 5 days after the procedure eggs will be starting to hatch and they'll take up patties.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...y4926001/2014 bee pics/4-4-14_zps01fddd82.jpg

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1010089_zpse219e25b.jpg

What you do here is make that crop of foragers in March/April work themselved to death rebuilding, instead of doing a whole bunch of nothing.

Does it put undue pressure on the queen? Shorten her life with additional laying? Not in any way I can see. I do this to all my breeder queens /older colonies and have many of those queens overwintering for the third time.
It's kind of like the fountain of youth for an old tired colony.

Note: These frames are not taken out because they are old or have something wrong with them. They are taken out to get the queen back onto her spiral pattern in a concentrated area.

Especially if you have run an unlimited brood nest in the past, the frames can become spotty over time because of seasonal interferance with the cells availability to the queen. Once your frames become spotty, the queen only can lay in available cells from then on. Give her a blank slate of new comb and I think you'll be surprised at her pattern, once every cell is once again available.

By making nucs with the older frames & a virgin queen or cell, by the time she is mated and starts laying, that brood will have all hatched and once again, all cells will be available to the new queen.
That is what I think gives the impression a younger queen will out perform an older one. The 'playing field' is not equal & is usually an overlooked fact.

Otherwise, your older queens are loosing momentum by searching here and there for empty cells to lay in. Comb that has been in use a couple years had many reasons for causing spotty laying. Seasonal Backfilling, VSH behavior, etc. Once that frame has lost it's pattern, it's gone for good until all cells can be cleared and the frame 'rebooted'

You can read more about this method, starting on post #17

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...plit-Last-light-or-Midday&highlight=simulated

You can also simply confine your queen in a shipping cage for a couple days and hang her between the frames if you don't want to insert a single frame of brood. Turn her loose when the colony has drawn out a couple frames so she can start laying immediatly upon release. You'll get a very nice brood break and chance for them to clear off the mites.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Nice job there Lauri. By taking the broods away this will give them a nice brood break.
I'm sure the mites will be less too. On you tube vid the elder couples cut all the broods out of
the frames. This will stimulate the bees to not swarm but to rebuild just in time for the honey harvest.
Timing is the key.
I found no difference between the Spring and late Fall queen. They lay as usual as long as the other conditions
are met. So it all depends on how good your queens are locally.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

RichardsonTX said:


> Anyone have a good idea on how to minimize robbing when making up summer nucs?


I don't usually open feed, but by puting a 'bait' feeder out in a couple places, I found it helped when I was getting into my mating nucs during the day, during dearth periods when robbing pressure is likely.
I used 5 gallon buckets, and even though there were plenty of holes in the bottom, punched with my leather awl..+ a few along side the lid for a trough effect, it was no easy lunch to get that syrup and took the bees at least 5 -7 days to empty. Keeping them busy and out of my way.

My buckets would collapse slightly and create too strong a vacuum. But what it was for, they worked well.

Like others said, keep entrances _very_ small in your nucs. Don't make them up during the middle of the day when flying is at it's highest. I find cool early morning the best time to make them up. Be organized and make them up quickly, keeping exposures at a minimum if possible. Keep you eye on them throught the day and be ready with tape to close them down completly if robbing starts.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P8180483_zpsfd170012.jpg

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P8180484_zpsb4939b11.jpg
http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P8100043_zps8f89c629.jpg


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

[What you say is very interesting and I bet it works great for you but I live in cold country where the warm seasons are really pushed toogether. My limiting factor on buildup is finding bees to keep brood warm thru freezing nights and often freezing days. I still applaud you for incite in your locale. Good stuff.

41]*With hive conditions being equal* (Newly drawn frames, no old spotty frames, plenty of feed) my 2 & 3 year old queens perform no different than a newly mated one, no matter what the season.
This frame was drawn and filled this last sumer by a 2012 queen after being 'freshened' onto new frames in a simualted swarm.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P6080600_zpsbe0a8103.jpg

Older queens get blamed for a lot of slow downs, when it may be the beekeeper that has allowed the entire colony to slack on performance.

By removing ALL frames of brood and feed from an overwintered colony, (Except one frame of open brood to keep them from possibly absconding) you stimulate them to immediatly grab a gear. Watch those older queens tighten patterns up & lay like crazy when they are once again given a blank slate. 

Although you can do this most any time spring and early summer, my favorite time is in the dearth period between my maple flow and the main flow.
With plenty of feed, the simulated swarm will draw out and fill several new frames in just a week's time. By the time the main flow arrives they will usually have 2 deeps full of newly drawn frames, brood and a large population of young bees. Not to mention all those nucs you made from the frames you took away.
I've just gotten 18 frames drawn with syrup and filled with new brood, just in time for them to take over filling the supers with the real stuff.

If I had not done this, overwintered colonies like this would have just 'hung out' in between flows and not done much more than exist and possibly think about swarming. Feeding an overwintered colony to stimulate brood production before the main flow can be a recipe for swarming.
Feeding an overwintered colony that has been redirected to rebuild before the main flow is a recipe for performance.
In their mind, they have already swarmed. 


The down side to this, is you end up with a tremendous amout of bees & nucs.
Maybe a bit less honey overall, but not by much if your timing is right for your area. You can always remove the young queens form those nucs you made and combine the resources back with the original hives to create less hives with more volume. 
Don't forget the advantage of the _brood break _you just gave all the colonies.

That's my .02. I'm no expert when it comes to massive honey production-to take this info as you will.

Just be sure your colony has a good population of both foragers that will return to the established queen in the old location with the new frames and feeder, and the brood frames you took away have sufficient numbers of young bees that will stay in the new nucs to avoid chilled brood. There is no shaking/brushing of bees and no confining with this method- and done within a single location.

This is also a great way to get your mini frames drawn and filled quickly for springtime use. Give them to a simulated swarm or shaken bees with nothing else to work on._ Don't forget to feed them._ No protein until the queen has started laying up the comb..about 5 days after the procedure eggs will be starting to hatch and they'll take up patties.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...y4926001/2014 bee pics/4-4-14_zps01fddd82.jpg

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1010089_zpse219e25b.jpg

What you do here is make that crop of foragers in March/April work themselved to death rebuilding, instead of doing a whole bunch of nothing.

Does it put undue pressure on the queen? Shorten her life with additional laying? Not in any way I can see. I do this to all my breeder queens /older colonies and have many of those queens overwintering for the third time.
It's kind of like the fountain of youth for an old tired colony.[/QUOTE]


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Vance G said:


> [What you say is very interesting and I bet it works great for you but I live in cold country where the warm seasons are really pushed toogether. My limiting factor on buildup is finding bees to keep brood warm thru freezing nights and often freezing days. I still applaud you for incite in your locale. Good stuff.


[/QUOTE]

My season is pretty short too Vance. But I've learned tricks to extend my season considerably. Just like using a greenhouse to extend the growing season for my garden. 
Insulation between the hives prevents chilled brood in early spring. They'll rear worker brood right into the outside frames when housed like this.
That's something I can rely on, no matter what the unreliable spring temps do. I'm not afraid of early build up.











(The only reason I have so much insulation between the hives here is to allow room for my telescoping covers.)
http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1040471_zps1ec678d1.jpg


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

David LaFerney said:


> - I've heard this said by people who I highly respect, and I have observed Post Solstice queens to lay like crazy during fall buildup. Enough so that I try to get them in most of my hives by Sept 1st. All of my queens (except a couple of "special" ones) were PS and survived the last cold winter.
> 
> But that could just be me and my confirmation bias seeing patterns where none exist.
> 
> ...


There are 4 solstices in a year. Just saying. ;-)


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

ok to clarify we are talking about the summer solstice in june


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Cabin said:


> There are 4 solstices in a year. Just saying. ;-)


Umm, no, there are two, one happens around Dec 21 give or take a few hours, one happens June 21, give or take a few hours.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

Ok I was throwing in the equinox, my bad.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

The Gentleman obviously meant equinoxes and here in Montana I can only roll in snow naked on three of them.


Cabin said:


> There are 4 solstices in a year. Just saying. ;-)


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Doesn't _anyone_ watch Ancient Aliens? (H2)
I have my yards set up like Stonehenge and some of the other monoliths that are aligned with Ryan's belt and the solstices. makes for awesome mated returns.

Just kidding 
Had you for a minute though, didn't I?










Wait a minute, maybe that's not such a bad idea...You never know. 

Anything is possible. This thread says so.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?306157-Treatment-free-is-it-really-that-easy


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_Lauri_, perhaps you need to shift your base of bee operations a few miles to the east ... Maryhill WA ... 









Photo Credit


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Vance G said:


> The Gentleman obviously meant equinoxes and here in Montana I can only roll in snow naked on three of them.


Why? Is it too cold on the 4th one? :lpf:


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

YUP.


Flyer Jim said:


> Why? Is it too cold on the 4th one? :lpf:


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

Lauri said:


> Doesn't _anyone_ watch Ancient Aliens? (H2)


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## Jerry Carter (Jan 5, 2015)

This thread has been very informative, Thanks from a new keeper here. I am going to try removing some brood to open up some space and see how it works for me. Sounds like a good idea, and I might get more frames drawn out that way.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have my yards set up like Stonehenge and some of the other monoliths that are aligned with Ryan's belt and the solstices. makes for awesome mated returns.

Sort of like carhenge.
http://carhenge.com/

Except hives. What would you call it? Beehenge? Hivehenge?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Jerry Carter said:


> This thread has been very informative, Thanks from a new keeper here. I am going to try removing some brood to open up some space and see how it works for me. Sounds like a good idea, and I might get more frames drawn out that way.


Be careful Jerry, I rarely disturb the brood nest. This method_ removes _it entirely and stimulates swarm 'performance'. It's totally different than slightly shuffling the broodnest around or inserting a couple frames.

Having NO brood and NO feed is a powerful motivator that redirects a colony somewhat stalled in dearth 'limbo' into performance you wouldn't otherwise get. If they are content, they are lazy. 

It may take some time on your part, but if you are in an area with a short season, the more you make them work, the more you will achieve that season.

If you are unsure of why this method works or are unsure of the procedure, I'd say don't attempt it quite yet. You also need a _very large overwintered colony with plenty of bees_, not a medium or smallish one to be successful. The large colonies with older queens that are in risk of swarming and mite loads are the best ones. It rectifies all those issues.

If you chance the 'recipe', you'll end up with plaster of Paris instead of bread dough.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Ohh, messing with the brood nest too early is not a good thing.
Lauri does it for a purpose. Besides, she has 300s hives to play with. I don't, yet!
I use the plaster of paris for my one frame non grafting frame project.


Plaster of paris:


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## Jerry Carter (Jan 5, 2015)

Lauri said:


> Be careful Jerry, I rarely disturb the brood nest. This method_ removes _it entirely and stimulates swarm 'performance'. It's totally different than slightly shuffling the broodnest around or inserting a couple frames.
> 
> Thanks, Maybe I will leave it be this year and get some more experience, or more hives to experiment with.


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