# foulbrood in apiary selling bees



## baldwinbees

when I start with a new contractor,I ask who supplies their materials.then I call my salesman for that supplier how they feel about him.WELL,I called the Mississippi inspector about an apiary&asked if there were any problems with RRussell apiaries&what he thought of their operation.he confirmed that RRussell apiaries has been under QUARENTINE for foulbrood since this spring.Guess I won't be ordering those sunkist queens


----------



## baldwinbees

oh yeah 888-257-1285.Mississippi ag. dept...Charles Wilson


----------



## Mbeck

Whoa!

No dog in this fight, I haven't bought a thing from him and don't know him.

Doesn't he run like a zillion hives? I can't imagine they are all kept in the same spot.
Statistically he's bound to have run across Foulbrood with so many hives.


So I guess the question is did he sell you bees from a yard that tested positive for foulbrood?
Do you know him to lack integrity and can you prove it?


----------



## rrussell6870

Your kidding right? One experimental yard was quarantine for 3 cases out of the several hundred colonies in that yard... they were treated and completely free of afb well before the quarantine was ever even written... we have bees all over this country, if you think we sell sick bees, you have apparently been living under a rock because you certainly haven't been paying attention... frankly I am taken back by such a bold accusation.

But your right about one thing, you will not be getting any queens from us after such an attack. You could have simply asked for the details and I would have gladly given them.


----------



## baldwinbees

this is not an accusation,but a confirmation.the number is listed above.they say you are quarentined.straighten it out with them.


----------



## rrussell6870

No. They say that one yard is quarantine... first inspection was requested for early Feb, 2011, they just showed up on May 1st, then reinspection was set for June 1st, and has still not been inspected... the yard was already under personal quarantine... and the infections were controlled for research purposes... 

First off, you need to understand how these things work...

1. Every colony of bees has afb in it... an infection is where the issue comes into play... 

2. Queens can not spread afb in the first place, even though no queens were produced for sale out of that location...

3. A quarantine is for a particular location (bee yard) not an entire operation... in this case, its the only location that MS bee inspectors have jurisdiction to inspect...

4. The yard in question should not have been quarantined in the first place... under MS code, a colony is deemed to be any functioning cluster of bees with a queen and combs... meaning that the yard contained 410 colonies at the time of inspection...3 colonies contained limited afb infections... MS state code requires that 2% or more of the hives in an apiary be infected before a quarantine can be issued...

5. I have not considered this situation to be an issue, until now... I know I have just put it down to "they must be busy, they will get here when they can", but apparently there are some more intentional motives involved... it is indeed an accusation, not a confirmation... for confirmation, you would have to at least know SOME of the facts...


----------



## WLC

'One experimental yard...'

What experiment was that?


----------



## rrussell6870

Actually several... the whole yard is only used for testing and comparing... treatment types/applications/methods, timing, genetics, resistance development, temperament variations, mite transfer levels, hive configurations, comb manipulation practices, etc... and yes the afb was used for testing as well... the hives would have been burned otherwise... with research and development being a top priority, one must work with the issues that create a threat if they are going to be able to find better solutions... was it under control? Absolutely... of the 410 colonies, 3 were infected, no infection was spread, and all are clear of infection now... from time to time I ask others to run studies on pests and diseases within their colonies for me because I do not have the specimens to work with... in this case I did... its not like they were hidden or anything... afb is common issue amongst large operations... it happens... afb lives in EVERY colony of bees, its the infection that causes the trouble... which is not really that big of a deal so long as the bee keeper is knowledgeable and responsible...


----------



## sqkcrk

One thing Dr. R left off of his list is CONFIDENTIALITY. Something the Apairy Inspector failed to uphold. That and educating the person posing the question.

An apiary/bee yard is a location where beehives are kept. When a Yard is found to have vegetative state AFB present, at least in NY, a Quarantine and Abatement Order is issued. The hive containing the diseased material is not supposed to be removed from the site, except under supervision of the Apiary Inspector, who usually also oversees the burning of the bees and equipment. Some States allow light cases to be medicated and reinspected.

In NY, whatever an Apiary Inspector finds in an Apiary, be it disease or a crop of honey, that info is supposed to be kept confidental, not public.

Were I Dr. Russel, I would be giving the Apiary Inspector and/or his/her boss a personal phone call.

Those queens you sent me are doing well.


----------



## WLC

Any Remembee?


----------



## rrussell6870

Thanks Mark. Actually, this us not the first log on the fire... the inspector offered knowledge of a good many nucs for sale by a friend of his during his inspection... then I had a customer that had ordered 60 nucs inform me that the inspector told him that my bees had afb and to buy from his buddy instead... then a sister operation informs me that the inspector and a nuc producer were discussing how they needed to hurt my sales because they aren't selling as much as last year (before I started letting the public buy our products)... 

My father had caused bad blood with this inspector over the mid-rush inspection timing, instead of earlier when it was possible... even wrote an abj article on it years ago... since then, my father would only report three or so locations out of the 22,000+/- hives he had, because he couldn't afford to stop in the middle of the rush and take the inspectors around to show them all of the yards... 

I keep my yards in many states and under many sister operations... so the inspector assumed that I had just not told him about all of my locations under his authority... but I had...

I did not, nor do I now want to fight with or have bad blood with the inspector... he seems like a nice guy and we could be good friends, but I can not afford (nor could anyone) to have someone using government positions to cause harm to an organization, be it unintentional or otherwise... 

I would prefer to just let it be water under the bridge, but will have my attorneys press the issue if it can not be let go...


----------



## sqkcrk

I lost my ability to be both an Apiary Inspector and a Beekeeper because of the poissibility of Conflicts of Interest, not for any actual CoI, just the possibility. Had I done what this guy appears to have done I would have been told to turn in my smoker and hive tool ages ago.

I understand your position and POV, but, this should not be done or stood for. I assume, from what you wrote of historic occurance, that this guy is well ensconced in his employment poisition? The State Apiculturalist perhaps?


----------



## sqkcrk

baldwinbees said:


> Guess I won't be ordering those sunkist queens


baldwinbees,

Perhaps, in the future you should ask more questions and get more info before putting this sort of thing out there in the public eye.

My Dad was known to say, "Consider the source.". I have been known to say, "Don't believe everything you hear." and also, "Question Authority".


----------



## WLC

I think that the Doc missed the inspector's real meaning.

If the Doc asked him 'How much?', he would have known exactly what the cost of doing business in his part of Mississippi really is.

PS-You didn't really think that he was talking about 'nuc boxes', or that they would actually show up once you paid for them?


----------



## MichaBees

Unethical beeehavior must not be tolerated under any circumstance. I inspect and check other people’s work on a daily basis, fairness and honesty has to be some of your primary tools. 
For what I can judge, based on the limited information provided; this guy needs to be booted out of such position.


----------



## rrussell6870

The only current bee inspector... the bad blood started during my fathers era was with him and his boss (at the time), the state entomologist... who still has quite a lot of clout even in retirement and has quite conflicting views about many things pertaining to bee keeping from my own... I have a big mouth and a strong backbone... it creates enemies at times, but I was raised to stand up for what I believe in and to put character above all else... MS is at huge risk of losing its apiary inspection program altogether, and I would not want to put any man out of work... so I will let by gones be by gones so long as the attacks stop... there are many MS bee keepers that are quite happy with my products and my guidance... that said, MS is a tiny drop in the bucket of my overall operation and customer base...


----------



## Barry

rrussell6870 said:


> 4. The yard in question should not have been quarantined in the first place... under MS code, a colony is deemed to be any functioning cluster of bees with a queen and combs... meaning that the yard contained 410 colonies at the time of inspection...3 colonies contained limited afb infections... MS state code requires that 2% or more of the hives in an apiary be infected before a quarantine can be issued...


Just to be clear on this, what exactly does a "yard under quarantine" mean?


----------



## rrussell6870

No colonies, comb, or equipment can be moved from that yard until it has been reinspected and found to be below the threshold of 2%.

My own personal quarantine guidelines are much more strict... excluders over all possible exists, tools must be cleaned with surgical scrub before returning to the vehicle, exterior disposable clean suits must be worn and burned on location before returning to the vehicle, 8 mil vinyl gloves must be worn on the outer cover of protective gloves and burned along with the clean suits, absolutely NO hives can be moved from the location for two full seasons...


----------



## camero7

No AFB from any of the queens I ordered. Not an issue IMO.


----------



## WLC

So, by not paying for 'his friend's nucs', he tied up 410 of your colonies.

Maybe you should put him 'on payroll' after all.


----------



## rrussell6870

Lol. That yard is entirely used for research... no skin off of my back to leave them where they sit... they weren't going anywhere anyhow... they were mostly the remains of my fathers operation after my brother had decimated his stocks so terribly by stealing nucs from them and replacing the five center combs with culled frames that had been piled behind a shop for years... straightening them back up was just for sentimental purposes... 

I have no need to buy nucs... now if he had known of some stocked locations, that may have been a different story... lol. 

I don't want to insinuate any wrong doing, but if there were, I believe it was more an issue if my ability to take a large slice of the pie that caused the trouble... I am not out to cut anyone out of sales, quite the opposite... I would (and do) help absolutely any bee keeper or operation that I can... there is no such thing as competition in this industry... if a company produces a good product and makes it available to those that need it, they will sell everything that they produce...


----------



## WLC

Doc:

You must lead a wonderfully 'sheltered' life. There was no 'friend' or nucs for sale.


----------



## Barry

rrussell6870 said:


> No colonies, comb, or equipment can be moved from that yard until it has been reinspected and found to be below the threshold of 2%.


And are the bees from this yard totally out of reach from coming in contact with any other bees?


----------



## beeware10

poor thread that never should have started. good thing the ethics of wlc are contained within nyc.


----------



## rrussell6870

Barry said:


> And are the bees from this yard totally out of reach from coming in contact with any other bees?


No. But the stores and swarms are, which is the only means of cross contamination...


----------



## WLC

Obviously, it's in Miss. as well.

Of course, in NYC, the guy gets the envelope, but then he gets robbed as soon as he leaves.


----------



## Barry

rrussell6870 said:


> No. But the stores and swarms are,


One last question. The swarms are not able to contaminate any other hives because you use excluders on the hives, therefore restricting a queen from leaving? Is that how it's done?


----------



## rrussell6870

WLC, That may be, but I am one of those people that relies on good faith and the golden rule... I would be completely oblivious in a situation like that. Lol.


----------



## rrussell6870

Barry, its a mix of consistent observation, mechanical restrictions, special management practices, and control of the brood rearing and space available...


----------



## David LaFerney

I may be sheltered too, but I'm a contractor from a family full of contractors - father, father in law, brother, brother in laws, uncles, cousins - my friends are largely contractors... you get it. Unless I'm wearing blinders the people I know would rather do just about anything than pay a bribe. Maybe it's a southern thing. It's just not part of the culture. Our Mommas would be ashamed of us. So, there really might be a friend with some nucs.

BTW Doc, I think your accuser has smeared their self instead of you. Anyone on beesource that is paying any attention knows the score.


----------



## WLC

Maybe I can spot a shakedown because both my former boss and the best man at my brother's wedding, were both pardoned by the same president, in the same year, for unrelated issues, and they didn't know each other. 

True story.


----------



## rrussell6870

Hate that things like this happen... but it is nice to know there are thousands of voices ready to be heard when it does happen... which is the most effective way to regain ground against governments... with the thunderous voice of the public... in this case, that's several thousand beekeepers within the same industry nationwide... right is right, its not hard to get public support when the cause is just...


----------



## mcdermottm

I am a very happy customer. I purchased two queens this year. I am very impressed by the sheer knowledge that Dr Russell shares with all of us. He takes alot of his time posting responses on here to help all of us. Even with all of the bad weather and illnesses this year, he still takes the time to come on here and help us. I am impressed by the info that he shares. I have seen several posts where he goes out of his way to send people items for free to try and is always trying to help other beekeepers improve their apiaries. I think that the original post comes off as a personal attack more than just providing us with needed information. i would purchase nucs and queens from Russell's without hesitation.


----------



## beeware10

wlc see, I told ya it was a nyc thing. lol


----------



## beeware10

the post by mcdermottm was very well done. much better than posts bashing ones charactor with little knowledge.


----------



## WLC

beware:

He was a great man, and a 'sophisticated' businessman. He truly opened my eyes. 
But, I knew that wasn't the life for me.

In a big way, he's the reason I left to get my degrees in science. I haven't looked back since.

When I hear Doc's story, I have to chuckle.

I can imagine the look on this guys face when he realized that the Doc is totally oblivious to what he's really saying.

This inspector's face must have gone from a grin to a look of incredulity!


----------



## rrussell6870

Yep. If that was the situation, I was completely oblivious... hadn't even thought of the possibility until today when you mentioned it. Lol. But again, I am trying to think of it as just a misunderstanding... he seems like a nice guy and if you look back through my posts, I have always recommended that people put the good foot forward when dealing with inspectors and be as helpful and understanding as possible so they can do their jobs... 

Wow, the movement of this thread had me a little dizzy for a moment there... lol.


----------



## Barry

rrussell6870 said:


> Barry, its a mix of consistent observation, mechanical restrictions, special management practices, and control of the brood rearing and space available...


This keeps other people's bees from ever having contact with these hives? Please understand that unless you can be 100% certain (hard to do unless your bees are on an island) that your AFB cannot leave your site, it's troubling to hear one say they choose to keep a few hives going with AFB for testing purposes. Is this sanctioned by the state? I remember all the grief I got in another thread about AFB and now it looks like the story is different when the ball is in another court.


----------



## WLC

It's your 'immaculate innocence' that saved you Doc.

Good for you.

It's also a good thing that you didn't actually need those 'nucs' that his 'friend' had, and paid in cash, or you would have been left saying, "Where's my nucs?"

I hope you had a good Columbus Day.

WLC


----------



## rrussell6870

Since we are already on the subject... afb has long been known to be the scapegoat for government "access and control"... afb concerns have been the reasoning for many controls, such as registration, AL's "no comb law", interstate travel fees in the form of permits after inspection, etc... TM has been used almost religiously by so many as a prevention method and many have learned to question those practices and treat or destroy more for intervention than prevention as afb has indeed developed levels of TM resistances over time... so have the governments been using scare tactics and hype in order to gain access and control of the commercial industry? While there are simple and effective means of dealing with it, such as burning or treating... I would love to hear the thoughts of others...


----------



## WLC

Well, the Doc is an entomologist (that's why I refer to him as Doc), and he does have institutional affiliations (and students)...

So, he can run field experiments.

I wanted to know if he had run any Remembee field trials and if he had noticed any subsequent diseases in treated hives (or heard of any anecdotes to that effect).


----------



## rrussell6870

Barry said:


> This keeps other people's bees from ever having contact with these hives? Please understand that unless you can be 100% certain (hard to do unless your bees are on an island) that you AFB cannot leave your site, it's troubling to hear one say they choose to keep a few hives going with AFB for testing purposes. Is this sanctioned by the state? I remember all the grief I got in another thread about AFB and now it looks like the story is different when the shoe is in another court.


Lol. No grief was intended... I can't recall, but I think the issue there was that some were promoting the idea that "why test, why care, why burn"... my intentions then (as well as today) were not to bring grief, but to point out that testing and being exceeding careful about cross-contamination was the most important thing... while it is important to promote stocks that can overcome minor infections, necessary testing and isolation protocol should be in effect... 

Sorry if it came across wrong... in my situation the infections were not allowed to persist outside of the duration of the studies, which were 1. To establish the effectiveness of a certain strain and its excessive use of propolis against a mild infection of afb. And 2. To test the effective duration and residual effects of Tylosin on mild to moderate afb infected hives... both small studies, but both could lead to more research if they were to show evidence of an aid in fighting afb... 

The entire yard had already been scheduled for treatment long before the inspector showed up... and the tylosin arrived two days after the inspection, which began a three week course of intense treatments... 

For what its worth... 

1. Propolis has no notable effects on afb in a mild or moderate infection according to this small analysis...

2. Tylosin was indeed effective at destroying the infections within the first dose of three table spoons delivered as a dust along the top bars of the brood chamber... although the infection was undetected three days after the first dose, the dose was continued every 7 days totalling three doses per the manufacturers recommendations... these colonies are completely clear of infections and we will be able to continue testing them periodically to see if the infections ever return... as long exposure to TM has caused TM resistant afb, the intent here is to determine if tylosin will "wear off" over time, or if the once infected combs and equipment will be able to be used without fear for years and years to come... in other words, is tylosin preventive or curative...

Think of the good that could come of having a curative treatment that would only be used when needed instead of a preventive treatment that gets blindly used across the board... I think you of all people can agree with that hope for the future.


----------



## rrussell6870

WLC, you can call me Robert. Lol. As a commercial producer, my education conflicts with my business interests as it can be considered a marketing tool... so I try to leave my education out of public affairs... I want people to buy my queens because they like them, not because I recommend them... you see my point...

However, I do run tests, give lectures, and write educational curriculum for certain programs... that may sound nice, but its really just a means of getting access to the resources that the schools can offer in exchange for my volunteering... I am a commercialist after all. Lol. Almost every bit of research that I do is for private industry which makes me a much less "giving" professional than some of the more commonly known...

Keeping bees is where my heart is, my education was simply a way to further my own knowledge for that purpose...

About the remembee... I have not run any trials on it personally but will ask around to see what others have experienced and get back to you about it.


----------



## Duboisi

WLC said:


> I think that the Doc missed the inspector's real meaning.
> 
> If the Doc asked him 'How much?', he would have known exactly what the cost of doing business in his part of Mississippi really is.
> 
> PS-You didn't really think that he was talking about 'nuc boxes', or that they would actually show up once you paid for them?


Please do not make up rumors.:no:

It is bad enough if a gov. official uses his position to undermine a beek and promote a friends products.
Instead you are implying that he is asking for bribes.

Now - using ones position in either of those manners are both corruption, but one is of them is quite a bit more serious than the other.


----------



## Gypsi

One of them is routine, (expectations of palm-greasing) and I miss it when it is expected, it is more common in the north than the south, but even in Texas, now and then, a bit of a kick-back is expected. So far it's been a few plants, couple of fish and some tubing for a guy's bait bucket on his boat. 

Some went over my head, but in my case, I am so small, and so clueless, it doesn't generally result in any professional sabotage. And fish, well there is no fishkeeping license.

Speaking of which, I wasn't planning on getting a beekeeping license either.

Robert Russell has been more helpful to me than most on this site, and I would buy bees from him. If only Mississippi weren't so far away. Because packages and robbers are a scary combination. I'd have to go pick up a hive or a nuc or 2.

Gypsi


----------



## Michael Bush

>Now - using ones position in either of those manners are both corruption, but one is of them is quite a bit more serious than the other. 

They are just two different versions of the same thing--using your office to your personal advantage.


----------



## Gypsi

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.... (Lord Byron or Lord Acton?)

And lesser power, well some people are ethical and some are not. But being the whistle-blower on crooks can be a very hazardous occupation. I prefer to avoid them, I have that luxury.

Gypsi


----------



## rrussell6870

Thanks Wolf... beautiful pics btw... I especially like the larvae stages, excellent job...


----------



## sqkcrk

Gypsi said:


> One of them is routine, (expectations of palm-greasing) and I miss it when it is expected, it is more common in the north than the south, but even in Texas, now and then, a bit of a kick-back is expected.
> 
> Gypsi


You must be writing about the difference between North Texas and South Texas, because such a blanket statement about the difference between The North and The South is just poppy kock. I have lived in both regions and have never, never in my life, experienced bribery in any form. Never been offered one or asked for one. And I worked as an Apiary Inspector for 20 years.

So, I really don't know what you are talkin' bout.


----------



## Broke-T

I am in MS and have had my bees inspected and never been asked for money. AFB and shipping queens may not seem like a problem, but nucs are a different story, Only AFB I have had came thru purchased nucs. You can treat and knock it down to where the hives look good to sell but it can come back under a stressor.

Here is a link to beekeepers certified to sell bees in MS.
http://www.mdac.state.ms.us/organizations/mshoneybee/Library/Newsletters/package-queen.pdf

Johnny


----------



## David LaFerney

Nice video Virginia - good job editing - reminds me of the ones they run on CBS Sunday Morning.


----------



## beemandan

One question I have about this is what was the apiary inspector doing there in the first place? In GA they only do inspections at the request of the beekeeper. The main reason anyone would ask for an inspection is if they intended to transport or sell bees from that yard out of state and needed a certificate of health to do so. 

I can’t imagine that they come uninvited and do surprise inspections….but maybe it is different in Mississippi?


----------



## beemandan

sqkcrk said:


> In NY, whatever an Apiary Inspector finds in an Apiary, be it disease or a crop of honey, that info is supposed to be kept confidental, not public.


I'm sure as a one time NY inspector you are correct but.....it seems strange to me that the results of an inspection conducted by a public employee that identify a contagious disease (even in bees) would be kept secret. 

I'll have to ponder this a bit...


----------



## cheezer32

Beemandan - Here in Ohio I had two yards that were randomly inspected, of which everyhive in both yards was went through every frame... As I understand it every state has their own laws. I've heard of several others that were randomly inspected as well, basically for us if you register your apiary, whether you have one hive or one million, they will be checked eventually... Whether it's every year for honeybee-resale or every ten years when they get to you; you never know.


----------



## jdpro5010

In Ohio it is the law that you register every apiary. It can be as small as one hive or hundreds of hives, but it must be registered. Then it is to be inspected at least once a year by law by the county inspector. The funny thing is that about a third of the counties in Ohio don't even have an inspector because of a lack of funding! The inspector can come at any time without warning to do this.


----------



## Riskybizz

Yes every state has different inspection practices. When we ran our operation in Virginia in 1990, the state inspected our 51 yards of approx. 70 colonies each. Some had more and some had less. We were good friends with the local inspector for several years and did not look upon the inspection process as an intrusion into our business. We registered all of our locations and for two weeks we showed them our yards and worked with them inspecting. Actually we liked having them help us do brood inspections in the spring. The extra 2 individuals made our job a lot easier and we didn't pay a dime for that service. One year we purchased 250 nucs from Florida and transported them back. We were on a tight schedule and secured clean bill of health certificates from the Florida inspectors. We we arrived back, we notified the Virginia inspectors that we brought bees back into the state and that we had certificates. When they inspected us a week later however AFB was documented in 30-40 nucs. Long story short, we assumed that because these nucs were certified by Florida that that had indeed been inspected and were clean. That was not the case. Virginia at the time allowed you to shake AFB colonies onto foundation and they fumigated the equipment for you (at no charge). We chose not do that. We burnt everything and inspected that yard every week for new signs of AFB. State inspection programs are only as good and honest as the individuals doing the inspecting. Its much easier to clean tag 250 nucs for transport and go home early on a Friday and have a cold beer than it is to actually do the work. We learnt a valuable lesson and paid for it. No, the company never made good on our claim to them. I relate this because I am sure Russell Apiaries is not going to be fooling around with AFB. If you run a large operation you will have a certain percentage of disease. Everyone knows that. It's what you do about it that matters. There is never a benefit in doing so. I have always enjoyed Mr. Russells posts and look forward to buying some of his queens this coming spring.


----------



## beemandan

jdpro5010 said:


> In Ohio it is the law that you register every apiary. Then it is to be inspected at least once a year by law by the county inspector.


Wow! They must have a load of inspectors and a pretty big budget. I suppose they're looking for AFB.
Here it's mainly the package bee and queen producers that are inspected... at their request.
If it is the same in Mississippi, then I have to wonder why Mr Russell was having this experimental yard inspected. Again.....it is just a curiousity.


----------



## Oldtimer

As to Baldwinbees, I don't really think this thread is his fault. He is just a simple head that has been led astray, pumped with biased information, by an inspector with an agenda. Nearly all commercial operations in my country of several thousand hives +, would have an AFB hive or two somewhere. Baldwinbees doesn't know this yet.

I too am an apiary inspector. In my country, inspectors have to sign a document requiring us to keep 100% confidentiality. There are reasons for this, as the information can be abused, as it obviously has in the case in this thread. The inspector should be disciplined or taken out of the circuit completely as he has tried to damage somebody's business.


----------



## rrussell6870

Dan, the thread has gotten rather long, so its understandable that you missed it, but the answer to your question is in post #6... we had requested inspection in November 2010 to be done in early Feb, 2011...

The inspection never came... then on may 1st in the middle of the rush season as well as the day of my daughters birthday party (which is the only reason that I was even in MS at the time), they just showed up wanting to inspect... they did say that they had ran across 1 hive that a hobbyists got from my father last year and 1 hive that a sister company had gotten from him as well that had mild infections, so they were just tracing the source, which is perfectly understandable to me... the hives in that study yard are the majority of the remnants of my fathers operation... 

the afb that was in his operation (do not misread my words here, its not like his bees were plagued or anything), had come from my brother stealing nucs from his hives by taking the center 5 frames from each chamber and replacing them with culled combs that had been sitting in burn piles for years... afb lives in every bee hive, but a huge stress such as this is what caused the infection... my father was too ill to keep up with what was going on at the time...

Broke T, how many people on that list do you think have had Russell bees in their operations... one of them had 30 hives going into winter last year and has the worst track record I have ever seen for keeping bees alive, and the 30 hives are the last of the ones that he had caused infections in... 

that list was also populated in 2010, when the bees that were inspected were the ones that I had already straightened up when my father asked me to take his operation over after catching on to what my brother was doing to him and sadly only after losing many hundreds of hives from his lifes work... so where did all of the nucs go that were stolen? You guessed it, to other MS operations that are on that list... 

It's really quite simple, I would keep many more hives in MS if the others in the state would get past this silly notion that they have to compete against one another and resort to underhanded practices to hurt one another... that does not appear to be possible, so I will not be expanding in MS.


----------



## Broke-T

If you are about to purchase hives of bees from someone and call the state apiarist to get the disease status of that beekeeper, would you want them to not tell you they were quarentined for AFB? 

Johnny


----------



## rrussell6870

First off, that is where the whole misunderstanding started from... no one has been buying anything from the "apiary" in question, its a bee yard, not a company...


----------



## rrussell6870

Let me bring it a little closer to home... what is the possibility of there being 1 shb in any of your hives? Under state code, your apiaries should be quarantined because 1 shb is considered an shb infection of enough magnitude to warrant a quarantine... 

Now do you see how silly these codes are? They are made in such a way that they can be used for control whenever it is wanted... like "loopholes"... 

Georgians, did you know that MS does not allow your bees in our state?

Floridians, same thing question?

Carolinians, some of your counties are banned as well...

Integrity and responsibility are the only way to maintain a VIABLE commercial bee keeping operation...""""if we all merely followed the politicians around, they would just lead us straight to the "bee bread line""""" (a quote from my father)...


----------



## sqkcrk

One case of AFB in an operation of thousands is inconsequential. I would rather know whether the beekeeper knows what he is doing.

I would like to know more about what the OPer asked the Apiary Inspector and what the Apiary Inspector said. Verbatum, word for word. I bet there is plenty of misunderstanding going on here.

How many of y'all are members of AFB Anaymous? Hi, I'm Mark. I'm a beekeeper. I have had AFB. Hi, Mark. Welcome to the club.

If you are a beekeeper, you either have had AFB or you will have AFB or you have and will be treating your colonies w/ TM and/or Tylosin.

There are two commonalities that one can say about beekeepers. A beekeeper is someone who either has a bad back or will have a bad back. The same is true w/ AFB.

Get over the stigma. Learn about it and how to handle having it. Varroa is worse. Did the OPer ask the Inspector about Varroa presence in Russel Cols?


----------



## sqkcrk

Broke-T said:


> If you are about to purchase hives of bees from someone and call the state apiarist to get the disease status of that beekeeper, would you want them to not tell you they were quarentined for AFB?
> 
> Johnny


The quarantining of one dairy cow does not mean the milk doesn't get picked up. Russel Apiaries wasn't quarantined. One of Russel's apiaries was quarantined. And probably actually only a small number of colonies in that apiary.


----------



## brac

I think it really sucks that Robert is constantly having to defend himself, as a beekeeper. I have mor to say about it but it would probably get deleted!


----------



## rrussell6870

That is correct Mark... in post #6 I state that the yard in question had 410 colonies as defined by the state of MS code...3 colonies had afb... the state of MS requires that 2% or more of the colonies within a yard must test positive for afb before a quarantine can be issued... the inspector reported only 60 colonies were in that yard, thus the yard should have never been quarantined in the first place...


----------



## rrussell6870

You couldn't be more correct Brac... it does suck. Lol. If it weren't for all the help of the members that step up to bring common sense back to the discussion, I would be overrun...


----------



## beemandan

rrussell6870 said:


> Dan, the thread has gotten rather long, so its understandable that you missed it, but the answer to your question is in post #6... we had requested inspection in November 2010 to be done in early Feb, 2011...


Actually I saw this but still didn’t understand why you requested an inspection for this particular yard.


sqkcrk said:


> There are two commonalities that one can say about beekeepers. A beekeeper is someone who either has a bad back or will have a bad back. The same is true w/ AFB.


No argument there. 
If I had a beeyard a mile from Mr Russell's and ended up with an AFB outbreak as a result and discovered that the local inspector knew about it but kept it secret....I'd be pis.....unhappy.


sqkcrk said:


> Learn about it and how to handle having it.


Kerosene and matches.

I have no doubt that Russell apiaries are a well run operation. I wouldn't have any reluctance about buying bees or queens from him. I’m not trying to be argumentative, I’m just trying to sort through this for my own understanding.


----------



## rrussell6870

I second Mark's request for the OPer to come public with what was asked and what the government employee responded with... a word for word "best you can remember" is good enough...


----------



## rrussell6870

Dan, because I prefer them to inspect every location... the afb was well bellow the healthy yard requirements...

The answer to the rest of you questions are within the thread... I know, I know, its too darn long to go through it all, and I understand completely, that's why I don't care to go back through it all to find it all and copy it all. Lol.


----------



## sqkcrk

beemandan said:


> No argument there.
> If I had a beeyard a mile from Mr Russell's and ended up with an AFB outbreak as a result and discovered that the local inspector knew about it but kept it secret....I'd be pis.....unhappy.


And how would you determine the source of infection in your bee hive? Just because someone has AFB and then you find a case in your near by apiary doesn't mean that's the source.

In NY, Apairy Inspectors who find a case, or cases, of AFB in an Apiary do not automatically notify beekeepers w/ neighboring apiaries. Though, there have been cases where neighboring apiaries get inspected when AFB is found. Though I never was involved in such a thing. Mostly we were told to inspect every apairy in each Township. Annually, if possible.


----------



## Riskybizz

Russell you don't have to continue to defend yourself against such unfounded accusations. Really it borders on malicious gossip, without facts. It's unfortunate it had to end up as a forum post. You know the truth about what happened and that's all that really matters. Sleep well tonight, and continue your good work in promoting beekeeping. Sorry moderator, but stuff like this really has no place in an open forum. Guilty until proven innocent? How about the other way around. Things like this are upsetting to those with integrity enough to take to set the record straight.


----------



## Barry

Riskybizz said:


> Sorry moderator, but stuff like this really has no place in an open forum.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Things like this are upsetting to those with integrity enough to take to set the record straight.


I disagree. I have no reason to doubt that the OP was truthful. Setting the record straight is what this thread has come to, as it should. The story has become much fuller with added information now available. We can all decided what to do with it at this point. Being visible on a public forum cuts both ways. Best to address it head on as Robert has done.


----------



## beemandan

sqkcrk said:


> And how would you determine the source of infection in your bee hive?


I wouldn't be able to determine the source. Having said that, if I knew that an apiary near one of my beeyards had afb symptoms I would be extra attentive to my yard. I'm not looking for an argument. I'm only saying that I'm not sure that 'confidentiality' in these matters is the best course. 
In Mr Russell's case, it surely is unreasonable for the apiary inspector to taint his entire operation because of a few hives in a single yard.


----------



## Gypsi

There is always so much more for me to learn. And then I remember I've been keeping fish since 1983, and I am still learning, and diseases mutate, and things twist and turn around....

Which is of course, the fun. Not saying AFB is fun, and I would surely cry if I had to torch a hive over it, but I would also torch the hive and have done. So maybe one of you knowledgeable people should start a thread that covers afb in its milder, treatable form, and where the line is when kerosene should be applied. 

Thank you, I know it's got to be torture for Mr. Russell, but it is also a series of realities that any of us could have to deal with - got drama (crooked inspectors), more drama (potential for bee-death), 
you know what I think this thread beat CSI out...

Gypsi


----------



## brac

Proximity to AFB, does not necessarily mean you will get AFB. 2 years ago a neighbor of mine less than 1/4 from my home yard, had 2 hives out of 4 that had bad AFB infections, both were robbed out, I can only guess that my bees took part in the robbing. I took it on myself to not move hives from to home yard to other yards for a year, but had no trouble. 
As Russell said the spore is in all hives, I had been in the neighbors hives with him a few months before, and pointed out that he had really bad mites and DWV, he decided not to treat because he didn't want to pull the honey. So instead 2 months later the honey (over 100 pounds per hive) was robbed out and the hives had to be burned. Anyway the point of this is it had no effect on my strong healthy bees less than 1/4 mile away.


----------



## Riskybizz

The original post was erroneous in that it led one to believe that all of Russell Apiaries was under quarantine. As moderator it would have been appropriate to ask the original poster to provide specific facts to support that statement. Instead, Mr. Russell was forced into having to defend himself to set the record straight. Sorry but for me that's yellow journalism at its finest. Let me give an example.."Barry last night I spoke with your next door neighbor and he told me you beat your kids every night"...(no offense Barry) but I am now forcing you to dispute what I have put fourth.


----------



## beemandan

Riskybizz said:


> accusations


From what I can tell there was only one accusation....in the original post. Frankly, I'd think Mr Russell appreciates knowing that he has a problem with the inspector.
I couldn't see why he had a yard inspected that he didn't plan to sell bees from. I was trying to understand the process....no accusation there.
I was also concerned with the idea of confidentiality in these inspections. Again...no accusation.
Mr Russell has patiently taken the time to answer everyones' questions and continued to add to his goodwill on these forums.


----------



## rrussell6870

beemandan said:


> In Mr Russell's case, it surely is unreasonable for the apiary inspector to taint his entire operation because of a few hives in a single yard.


I think that this is the biggest issue with the whole thing... he was told directly that this yard does not produce any queens, nucs, packages, or even splits that would leave the yard... it was strictly for testing purposes... so it really boils down to what he said... did he say that Russell Apiaries is under quarantine, or did he say "sir, to my knowledge, the only location that Russell Apiaries runs within my jurisdiction is not a production yard, but rather a study yard, and is quarantined by Russell Apiaries as well as the state... but to my knowledge, they conduct their operations with responsible practices"?

The customer that ordered 60 nucs from me told a staff member that the government employee told him that Russell bees have afb, but if you need nucs...

You see where the issue comes into play...

Personally, I do not mind it being a public debate... just so long as the statements are not misleading... in the original thread that was deleted the OP said "shame on you for knowingly contaminating the hives of your customers" a false statement on many levels and one that leads me to be even more concerned about just what this person was told by the government employee... obviously, the government employee did not educate the caller about afb at all...


----------



## rrussell6870

Riskybizz said:


> The original post was erroneous in that it led one to believe that all of Russell Apiaries was under quarantine.


Point well made... even the titles of both this thread and the one that was deleted are misleading..."foulbrood in apiary selling bees" and "foulbrood in apiary selling queens"... the apiary does not nor has it ever "sold bees" or "sold queens"...


----------



## baldwinbees

o.k. it's after 5.anyone call that #?when you make your spring splits ,do you move them?from yard to yard?I've hived swarms &watched them all crawl back out through a q-excluder,her majesty too.4 mos of quarentine,long time.I didn't bash you ,I felt that it should be clarified OPENLY.I've seen other people's opinions,now here is mine. I don't want to buy from a quarentined operation.obviously the inspector did his job&RRussell hasn't yet.I'm not able to afford taking a chance of losing everything.I would much rather hear that it was re-inspected&given a 'clean bill of health '.he must have good bees &with the responses given here won't have any problems.I'm sorry to have 'burnt a bridge',but he should have burnt a few hives&this wouldn't be here


----------



## rrussell6870

Gypsi said:


> So maybe one of you knowledgeable people should start a thread that covers afb in its milder, treatable form, and where the line is when kerosene should be applied.


Great idea... actually, we had all gone into it with great detail a while back, but its always a pleasure to teach so that "misunderstandings" can be fewer and farther between... plus there is even more information available now on the subject, so I look at it as "continued education". ;-) 

For the record, I said it earlier in the thread, but will say it again... had these three hives been in any production yard, they would have been torched immediately as it is less costly and less concerning for me to just burn hives that get infections than it is to treat them...


----------



## Barry

Riskybizz said:


> Let me give an example.."Barry last night I spoke with your next door neighbor and he told me you beat your kids every night"...(no offense Barry)


None taken. I'll simply get right to the bottom of this and make you look the fool (no offense )
Give me the name of the neighbor you talked to. Also, all my kids are over 18. If I beat them, I'd be writing to you from jail. See, pretty easy to deal with false statements.


----------



## Oldtimer

baldwinbees said:


> I don't want to buy from a quarentined operation.


So don't. But just to correct any misleading statements, Russell Apiaries is not a quaranteened operation.


----------



## Oldtimer

Barry said:


> Give me the name of the neighbor you talked to. Also, all my kids are over 18. If I beat them, I'd be writing to you from jail. See, pretty easy to deal with false statements.


Quite correct. So let's have the name of the inspector, plus exactly what was said. 
Then it will be "pretty easy to deal with".


----------



## rrussell6870

Baldwinbee, Seriously?? Did you not read any of this thread? There is NO AFB INFECTION IN THAT YARD... there is NO QUARANTINED OPERATION, the reinspection was scheduled for June 1st and there has been NO INSPECTOR... 

I do NOT MOVE ANY HIVES, SPLITS, BEES, QUEENS, COMB, EQUIPMENT, OR ANY OTHER ITEMS FROM THAT YARD... 

How about coming public with exactly what you were told by the government employee...


----------



## WLC

baldwinbees:

Why would you take CW's word on this? It seems obvious that there's some history between the Russells and the Miss. apiary inspectors.

Frankly, that friend/nucs business tells me everything I need to know about what is going on.

Perhaps I shouldn't be the one to tell you that you're being manipulated. But, you're being manipulated.

CW did the wrong thing. Don't be his 'tool'.


----------



## Barry

Riskybizz said:


> As moderator it would have been appropriate to ask the original poster to provide specific facts to support that statement.


Did you call the number and talk to the person he gave? Seems out in the open to me.


----------



## WLC

Folks:

Baldwinbees didn't purchase any nucs (queens) from Russell apiaries that were infected w/ AFB.

Why is he posting?

This is called 'hearsay'.

He wasn't harmed in any way, shape, or form.


----------



## rrussell6870

Barry, that would be true, only IF the OPer was actually told things such as what the titles of both threads say, or any of the statements in post # 81... ie "obviously the inspector did his job and RRussell hasnt yet", "quarantine operation"...

These statements are not true and very misleading... if that is what he was told, then he should be asked to clarify where his information came from... I and others have asked this already and he has declined to respond.


----------



## ShaneVBS

I really feel this thread should not been allowed to continue by site leaders. Very disrespecful and irresposible to allow such discussions when your talking about someones business and damaging accusations. Whether he defends or not its still in the back of people minds and can cause issues within ones lively hood. You dont get that big by losing control of your quality and service


----------



## beeware10

I agree 100% with shanevbs. a 2 colony beginner should not have equal time with a commercial beekeeper. It has been proven that he does not know what he is talking about. a long time ago I called for this thread to end. when people start bashing the moderator needs to take a close look.


----------



## WLC

He was put up to it by someone who is no beginner. I mean that both beekeeping wise and other 'wise'.

Shouldn't have happened. But, it did.


----------



## SPRUCE BEE

WOW! Talk about a "runaway train out of control" thread! First, I have to commend you Robert for standing your ground & defending yourself the way you have. I don't think anyone else could have the way you have if it wasn't for you're immense professional background in bees. What I've learned about AFB throught this thread is that I think you're more likely to get AIDS than your bees getting afb...a few hives out of 400 plus severely neglected hives getting afb seems like a pretty minor infection. I didn't know till now that all of my hives have afb spores! Whew, I'm relieved to know that I have better chances of winning the lottery than my bees getting afb! Its a shame how one individual can make a public statement like this one was, & a moderator can move the thread & label it "foulbrood found in apiary selling bees" without putting the thread on hold until lagitimacy can be substantiated about the accusation. I'm not going to rabble on here. Mnay have come to your support as I have. I have learned lots from your postings. I am a sastified customer of yours & will continue to buy bees from you. There are many more diseases & viruses to worry about in these current times. I'm sure afb will reshow its ugly self in the future like it did back in the sixties. Thanks for all that you have done to make the "bee world" a better place!


----------



## Barry

rrussell6870 said:


> These statements are not true and very misleading... if that is what he was told, then he should be asked to clarify where his information came from... I and others have asked this already and he has declined to respond.


I thought he did in post #2. Name and number. I guess the only way to know for ourself if it's true is to call the guy. You've given us a fuller picture of the issue and I'm satisfied with that. Is there really more that I should be doing in your eyes?


----------



## Barry

SPRUCE BEE said:


> & a moderator can move the thread & label it "foulbrood found in apiary selling bees"


Nope, not true. Yes, thread was moved from Consumer Reports but title was made by the OP.


----------



## beeware10

barry
any thread that starts out with bashing someone should raise a red flag with you. we are in a very small industry and hard working people should not be abused unfairly when their living could be affected.


----------



## waynesgarden

beemandan said:


> .....it seems strange to me that the results of an inspection conducted by a public employee that identify a contagious disease (even in bees) would be kept secret.
> 
> I'll have to ponder this a bit...


Ponder a situation in which you were diagnosed with a contagious illness. Should you simply do the right thing and take steps to prevent the spread to others, or should your illness be made public? 

Or, worse, should it be exagerated through an ill-informed post on a public forum?

Wayne


----------



## rrussell6870

Barry, I think you have done your part... but I am not sure that the government employee made the statements that the OPer made... at least that is what he has told others that have contacted him about it... that is why I asked for the OPer to tell what he was told publicly so we would all know... 

As to the statements being damaging, the government employee has already cost our company a sale of over $5,000 by saying "Russell bees have foulbrood"... this thread alone has caused numerous emails and phone calls, some if which were to cancel orders of over $1,000 each... my attorneys are ready to review the thread and start investigating the office and other producers that may be involved... the cost of such is around $7,500...(Phelps Dunbar and Glover Russell pa btw, if anyone needs absolutely excellent legal service, although rather expensive, they are never out performed)...

So what would one consider "damaging" to be?


----------



## sqkcrk

beemandan said:


> if I knew that an apiary near one of my beeyards had afb symptoms I would be extra attentive to my yard.


In what way?

When a Government Agency has dealings w/ private industry all knowledge of the regulated party are confidential by Law.


----------



## Barry

Truth will always win the day. This is not a forum where everything posted first goes through someone or some group that decides if it should be allowed to be made public or not. I am not qualified to do such a task nor is it the service I provide. My job is to make sure the forum rules are followed. Everyone agrees when they join the board that they will not post anything that is knowingly false and/or defamatory. Here, you're judged by public opinion, and of course any law suit one wishes to bring against another.


----------



## WLC

Doc:

Does this mean you aren't buying those nucs from the guy's friend?


----------



## Gypsi

If there is no truth to the statement, I think slander is illegal. maybe I should call the number tomorrow morning and see what the guy says. I haven't, but I could sound just naive as all get out and find out. 

yegads. 

Gypsi


----------



## sqkcrk

Oldtimer said:


> So don't. But just to correct any misleading statements, Russell Apiaries is not a quaranteened operation.


He apparently doesn't care to understand the difference or it doesn't matter to him.


----------



## Barry

"If there is no truth to the statement"

You're smart to start with "If", because none of us know for sure, do we? Thanks for making my point.


----------



## Barry

I believe "apiary" can mean a beekeeper's total operation and/or a specific yard of beehives.


----------



## rrussell6870

Barry, I do not sue people... let that be understood... but I will invoke my legal right to put a stop financial losses caused by the slanders of public official, IF that is the case... I completely agree with the public nature of the forums...

Gypsi, I have already heard from several people that did just that, and the story is completely different than what the OPer has stated... the official is a member of this site as well and has been viewing this thread both yesterday and today... but has declined to post... I don't blame him... it may just be that he made a few poorly worded statements, sees that now, and intends to chose his words a bit more closely in the future... which is fine with me...


----------



## ShaneVBS

Barry said:


> Truth will always win the day. This is not a forum where everything posted first goes through someone or some group that decides if it should be allowed to be made public or not. I am not qualified to do such a task nor is it the service I provide. My job is to make sure the forum rules are followed. Everyone agrees when they join the board that they will not post anything that is knowingly false and/or defamatory. Here, you're judged by public opinion, and of course any law suit one wishes to bring against another.


You say what you need to make yourself feel better, but you are responsible for this forum, rules or not, having the decency not to allow such things to happen can be easly done by using common sense. I believe research and investagation from you should have been done before allowing this thread to continue. I believe legal liability may arise from issues like this one. Its called defecation of character and or slander or in this case libel


----------



## Jim 134

baldwinbees...


I see you know very little about AFB Just my $0.02


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


----------



## rrussell6870

The word "apiary" can indeed be taken that way... its the rest of the statement that makes the difference... again, why it would be nice for the OPer to fill us in on what was actually said...


----------



## hpm08161947

ShaneVBS said:


> Its called defecation of character and or slander


Hmm... that sounds nasty!!


----------



## Barry

Understood Robert. I wasn't inferring you with that statement. Believe me, I've already been on the receiving end of an attorney's letter from someone not happy with comments made here. 

And if I'm presented with factual information (first hand) that shows statements posted here are false, I will take action.


----------



## WLC

I know what a quarantine is, but, what's a quarentine?


----------



## jim lyon

WLC said:


> I know what a quarantine is, but, what's a quarentine?


Pretty sure its a quarantine thats a victim of defecation


----------



## Barry

It's starting to smell in here. And yet Russell has risen above it all!!!


----------



## waynesgarden

ShaneVBS said:


> I believe legal liability may arise from issues like this one. Its called defecation of character ......


So, now we're making up offenses? As extremely funny as it is.......

Maybe this is why we have actual lawyers that know actual laws and can give actual advice? Certainly not as entertaining.....

Wayne


----------



## sqkcrk

Well Wayne, it does seem to me like his character has been deficated upon.


----------



## ShaneVBS

waynesgarden said:


> So, now we're making up offenses? As extremely funny as it is.......
> 
> Maybe this is why we have actual lawyers that know actual laws and can give actual advice? Certainly not as entertaining.....
> 
> Wayne


Whos giving advise may I ask? And I dont think its funny assisting in hurting a mans business. And the definition is not hard to understand. As ive been a forum admin for 5 years in another forum and we cannot allow such thing for this very reason as recommended from the owners attorney.

But in case you didnt know what it means

defamation,; any communication, written or spoken, that is untrue and that injures the good name or reputation of another or that in any way brings that person into disrepute.


----------



## WLC

I kinda think this Miss. feud is gonna go on for a long time.


----------



## hpm08161947

ShaneVBS said:


> defamation,; any communication, written or spoken, that is untrue and that injures the good name or reputation of another or that in any way brings that person into disrepute.


I like the other spelling better...

Bout time for a little humor in this well pounded thread.


----------



## rrussell6870

I couldn't imagine beesource being responsible for any statements whether they have the ability to remove or alter posts or not... the simple fact is that each of us are responsible for our own actions and we are expected to post as responsible adults... in this case, I think that a combination of inexperienced ears and poorly worded statements have caused a volatile mix... I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt, even though I didn't receive the same respect from the beginning... if these losses are just the results of that volatile mix, then I can wash my hands of it and move on... but if they are due to someone using my tax dollars to influence company sales, that's where I draw the line... again, not saying that is the case and like Mark pointed out earlier, the ""possibility" of conflicts of interest is just as damaging to an officials career as actually partaking, and I am absolutely against being part to a man losing his job...


----------



## WLC

'I am absolutely against being part to a man losing his job...'

Then put him 'on payroll' and move on.


----------



## brac

For once I don't mind hijacking a thread. Robert, could you give your thoughts on my post #76. Would you expect that to be the norm?
Brac


----------



## rrussell6870

WLC said:


> Then put him 'on payroll' and move on.


Ha! I'm also absolutely against paying extra for my liberties... I pay my taxes, I donate and invest, I help any and everyone who asks, I refuse to be required to make my contribution and then pay more to fuel corruption... if a man wants a vacation home or a fishing boat, let him earn it or ask to borrow one from someone who has... 

Again, not saying that is what has happened...


----------



## valleyman

This has went on way too long. I just want to add that the only thing I've come away from this thread is I have ABSOLUTELY NO respect left for baldwin bees. Robert I have had the best service and the best genetics from you that is possible. I would, without a second thought recommend your service and genetics to anyone. I admire you for taking time from your busy days to post on here. Please don't let one or two bad apples ruin it for everyone else. 




*Discussing moderation. Concerns, constructive criticism and questions of clarification regarding the User Agreement or moderator and administrator actions are best addressed directly to the moderator or administrator by private message or personal e-mail. Do not post on the board to debate, criticize, argue or challenge the Beesource Beekeeping Forums User Agreement, the moderators, administrators, or their actions. You agree to abide by the wishes of the board moderators in interpreting and enforcing these rules. Refusal to cooperate with board moderators or to abide by these rules is grounds for revocation of your posting privileges.*


----------



## Gypsi

defecation of character? 

ok, I think it's time to move some fish around. My clown decided to live, now I owe him an anemone. I've got to move the reef so I can sand down my hardwoods and refinish while the weather is right and I don't have my hands in bees... (you know I am almost enjoying their absence.) The reef tank is on the floor that needs redone.

Russell,

if it won't do any good to call, because the story is a flip-flopping, then I'm not going to waste my time. Besides, I donated my tape recorder to a charity. Hadn't used it in YEARS.... And the official is on here, so I am sure you'll get rave reviews.

I think this is one of those controversial threads that wastes a great deal of time and drive space, so I am going to wish all well, and unsubscribe from it. 

Gypsi


----------



## ShaneVBS

Valleyman, i couldnt have said it better myself.


----------



## rrussell6870

brac said:


> Proximity to AFB, does not necessarily mean you will get AFB. 2 years ago a neighbor of mine less than 1/4 from my home yard, had 2 hives out of 4 that had bad AFB infections, both were robbed out, I can only guess that my bees took part in the robbing. I took it on myself to not move hives from to home yard to other yards for a year, but had no trouble.
> As Russell said the spore is in all hives, I had been in the neighbors hives with him a few months before, and pointed out that he had really bad mites and DWV, he decided not to treat because he didn't want to pull the honey. So instead 2 months later the honey (over 100 pounds per hive) was robbed out and the hives had to be burned. Anyway the point of this is it had no effect on my strong healthy bees less than 1/4 mile away.


Yes. The transfer of afb is primarily from the exchange of infected combs/equipment or from the robbing of infected colonies...

The robbing issue is more a concern when the infected colonies are "unmanaged" or in otherwords, the infection is spread within the same yard to infect multiple hives and stores which are left and not rendered, without regard to treating or containing the infection... at the same time, a small number of infected hives will usually have no effect on a large number of robbing hives... ie, four infected hives get robbed out by 100 neighboring hives... the cross contamination effect is very low or non-identifiable amongst the 100 hives because the amounts of infected materials that each hive has taken in will not be enough to cause an outbreak in any one healthy hive... 

Afb lives in absolutely every bee hive... the infection occurs when a phenomenon takes place and the afb is accumulated within the gut of a perfectly aged larvae... from there the afb rapidly multiplies and busts the guttural lining of that larvae, killing it and continuing to grow within it... as house bees try to clean out the cell they then spread the afb and in rare instances, this spread may be enough to accumulate within yet another perfectly aged larvae, multipling the chances of the next larvae to become infected... 

In most cases, one to three infected larvae are sealed within their cells by the house bees and the infection is halted and overcome... these cases are rarely discussed simply because there is no infection... thus the majority of people do not ever realise that they have had the starts of an infection that was handled by the bees...

Afb infections are almost always triggered by a strong stress within a colony... the vast majority of infections are not from cross-contamination, but rather from a stress within the hive allowing the afb to build up in a smaller area, thus increasing the chances of that single larvae getting infected and spreading from there.


----------



## WLC

One apiary inspector for an entire state isn't going to be able to do much to stop the spread of disease.

What's the point of having just one?


----------



## rrussell6870

The office has shrank considerably with budget cuts and questions of effectiveness... like most states that have had to close the doors on their apiary inspection offices... MS feels the crunch of the economic times and the lack of federal funding...


----------



## rrussell6870

Disease control starts with awareness and education... looking at the problem is one thing, teaching how to identify and resolve the issue is another...


----------



## WLC

Doc:

One inspector isn't going to make a difference. You either treat according to a standard schedule, or you figure things out the hard way.

But, I think that beekeepers were getting an all together different type of education than what they were expecting.


----------



## rrussell6870

I think its time for me to start a thread specifically designed to educate bee keepers about afb... it had long been called the "scapegoat" for government access and control, so maybe shading a little light on the realities of afb would be helpful for people to see past the hype and make solid educated decisions... make no mistake about it, every large operation has seen it, and most small operations have seen it... some treat religiously for prevention, which in some cases is not so bad if they are not going to be inspecting and testing regularly... but it seems that most simply do not know enough about it to understand how it works, spreads, and how to identify it and resolve it when its found...


----------



## rrussell6870

I'm going to start a thread in the disease and pest forum... I would like to have several inputs in the thread ie.. the experience of a seasoned inspector (hint hint, Mark), the experience of someone in an environment where antibiotics are not allowed (hint hint, Oldtimer), a producers experience (myself and any others that wish to help), and absolutely anyone who has questions or personal experiences please chime in...


----------



## preciousbees

I would very much like to see good solid information on diseases along with pictures and what the treatment should be. I feel that it is an area that we all could do better in. I want to do the best I can to keep my hives healthy.


----------



## Barry Digman

Let me take a moment and remind members of what they agreed to when they signed up. 




> Discussing moderation. Concerns, constructive criticism and questions of clarification regarding the User Agreement or moderator and administrator actions are best addressed directly to the moderator or administrator by private message or personal e-mail. Do not post on the board to debate, criticize, argue or challenge the Beesource Beekeeping Forums User Agreement, the moderators, administrators, or their actions. You agree to abide by the wishes of the board moderators in interpreting and enforcing these rules. Refusal to cooperate with board moderators or to abide by these rules is grounds for revocation of your posting privileges.


All the rules are here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?226194-Forum-Rules

Thanks.


----------



## sqkcrk

rrussell6870 said:


> The office has shrank considerably with budget cuts and questions of effectiveness... like most states that have had to close the doors on their apiary inspection offices... MS feels the crunch of the economic times and the lack of federal funding...


This is true all over. NY is down to The State Apiculturalist, 2 full time Seasonal Apiary Inspectors and one part time Seasonal apiary Inspector. By Law the State must Inspect and Issue Health Certificates to Commercial Operations leaving the State for other States, ie: Commercial Migratory Beekeepers. Everyone else is on their own.

Last year $250,000.00 was cut from the Ag&Mkts Budget to help save the State some money. This was the Salary portion of the Inspection Program. The Federal Survey to determine the presence or absence of Tropelalax clarea, or however you spell that, helps employ the current crew.


----------



## sqkcrk

Threads like this one, which besmerch someone's character should not stand, should not go unchallenged, unless the statement or critisism is wartranted. As one sometimes finds in the Consumer Reports Forum.

I wonder what the intent of the OPer was in Posting his initial comments. Perhaps it was simply to warn others of what he thought was something to be concerned w/. Not fully understanding the whole picture and the ramifications of crying wolf. Raising an alarm when all he meant was to send out a warning, not a full scale attack. I have no idea.

I don't know the OPer, their business or them personally, but, like most folks, I'm open to the idea that he meant no real harm and perhaps regrets any he may have caused. If so, an apology would go a long way towards re-establishing good relations w/in our beesource community. I hope he considers doing so publically or, at least, via PM to Doc Russell.

In the future, it behooves us to solicit all sides of a story when a complaint or accusation is made. I have found at times that what one person posts is often off the mark coming from a place w/in themselves which has been hurt or insulted in some way. Sometimes. Often.

We benefit most from the Paul Harvey point of view. The rest of the story.


----------



## ShaneVBS

Barry Digman said:


> Let me take a moment and remind members of what they agreed to when they signed up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the rules are here:
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?226194-Forum-Rules
> 
> Thanks.


Barry,
I think since we are the ones that keep this forum going we have the right to challenge you and voice our opinion. And you editing peoples post is uncalled for, just becasue you dont agree with what they say. You guys cannot control the world by making rules to keep yourselves out of harms way. I dont think this forum has its members in there best interest, only making money. I think you should listen to your members and respect there opinion and not shut them down for personal reasons. We are telling you there is a major within this communinty. Ether take and use the critisism wisely or turn a blind eye which will really show how you feel toward your supporters.

Remember this is our forum


----------



## jim lyon

ShaneVBS said:


> Barry,
> I think since we are the ones that keep this forum going we have the right to challenge you and voice our opinion. And you editing peoples post is uncalled for, just becasue you dont agree with what they say. You guys cannot control the world by making rules to keep yourselves out of harms way. I dont think this forum has its members in there best interest, only making money. I think you should listen to your members and respect there opinion and not shut them down for personal reasons. We are telling you there is a major within this communinty. Ether take and use the critisism wisely or turn a blind eye which will really show how you feel toward your supporters.
> 
> Remember this is our forum


I am not sure which Barry this is aimed at but I must say that I feel, by and large, this forum is moderated quite fairly, sure we have all had a few issues but moderation of some of these threads is a thankless job to say the least. For those who feel that preferential treatment is given to some my reply would be that perhaps someone who has a longer history of making fair and rational posts has earned a little more leeway than some who always seem to be looking for an argument. Like it or not this forum does not belong to those who post here, think of yourselves as guests allowed to come to the party. In that same vein I think it is ridiculous for anyone to make the case that Barry is responsible for what others might say in a public forum such as this particularly when everything is in real time.


----------



## cheezer32

I don't mean to argue here... And I'm not sure of the ownership... An it may even be a technicality.. That being said.. This is actually NOT a public forum, it is in fact private, why? Because some owns the domain beesource.com, and someone owns the webforum for the posting here. That is why there is liability to what is posted here by the owner, the owner has the sole right and privilege to cancel, deny, make moderators, etc etc etc. Just because he let's everyone come to the party and doesn't deny them doesn't make it public... More than likely I'll say that the owner agreed to terms and conditions from the company he is using to host his forums... Of which I'm sure that is more in than you realize narrowing what is to be allowed... If he made the forums himself, he is once again the owner and fully responsible for everything that partakes on these forums.. But if he is the owner he can moderate the forum However he wishes whether it causes everyone to leave, some happy some mad or otherwise (you can never make everyone happy).... Sooo, disclaimer I'm not practiced in law or legal matters... But this is moreso the factual matter on why there us liability within the community.


----------



## Broke-T

sqkcrk said:


> Threads like this one, which besmerch someone's character should not stand, should not go unchallenged, unless the statement or critisism is wartranted. As one sometimes finds in the Consumer Reports Forum.


It seems that many are quick to assume baldwinbees had an agenda. He was just trying to let others know what he found out.

Again many are quick to assume that the bee inspector was dirty and wanted a bribe, even made it into a joke. 

All the time Robert gets a free pass.

Baldwinbees posted the number so you can check it out for yourselves. How many of you have called? I have.

Let the buyer beware.

Johnny


----------



## Beetrucker74

I just wanted to add my 2 cents about this thread I agree with Cheezer, the moderators can moderat as they want. But I do think they edit and delete alot but they are the ones responsable for trying to keep the peace. Now for my 2 cents on the AFB thing, I got 50 queens from Russells this year and have been very happy to the piont that we have ordered theirr Sunkist Breeders. As Dr Russell said AFB is out there as long as taken care of proper it is not spread. We run more than 15000 hives and have not had any out breaks in about 10 years. And as for Inspectors keeping secrets I never heard that they arent to give info out. Heck I try to get as much info out of those guys and gals as I can but I also know what the info I get means in the big picture of all things bees. Well there is my 6 cents I think but we all know what it is really worth.( A small hill of beans ):gh:


----------



## beemandan

[


Broke-T said:


> All the time Robert gets a free pass.
> How many of you have called? I have.
> Let the buyer beware.


Why so cryptic? Are you afraid to report what you were told? 
Do you think that if they get a hundred calls it’ll somehow make a difference?


----------



## Broke-T

I was told his entire operation is under quarentine and he should not be shipping any bees from any of his operations.

Johnny


----------



## MSBEEINSPECTOR

I am the Mississippi inspector that this discussion has centered on along with a beekeeper from Alabama. Anyone that knows me personally, and my character, would laugh at the accusations and innuendos concerning bribes and discussing the particulars of any case. However, I will remind each of you of something that is important to all of us that are strong proponents of “limited government”; it is call “freedom of information”.
As far as defending myself – no need – just read scripture. It is only my responsibility to take every situation God allows in my life, to grow more like Jesus, and live my life in a way that points others to Christ. – SERMON OVER – 

I will however, address two portions of the Rules and Regulations governing the laws of Mississippi and direct those that are interested, to a link to read for yourselves the entire law and regs. Certain concerns several of you expressed should be answered, for the most part, in the two portions of the regs. In light of all said in this forum, please read 105.09 and understand the beekeepers responsibility in staying in compliance with state law. 

RULES OF THE MISSISSIPPI DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE AND COMMERCE
SUBPART 3 – BUREAU OF PLANT INDUSTRY
CHAPTER 06 – Bee Disease Regulations

Certification of Package Bees and Queen Bees.
104 – All apiaries belonging to packaged bee and queen producers and nuc producers must be inspected annually for brood disease and parasitic mites. Certificates of inspection declaring apparent freedom from contagious bee diseases and parasites shall be attached securely to each lot of packages or queens being shipped. All lots of packaged bees, queens, or nucs being shipped into Mississippi must be accompanied by such a certificate from the state of origin.

Quarantines:
105.09 – It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly purchase, receive or transport bees from quarantined areas or quarantined beekeeping operations whether in-state or out-of-state.

LINK TO RULES & REGS.
http://www.mdac.state.ms.us/n_libra...fs/Subpart 3/06 - Bee Disease Regulations.pdf

LINK TO BUREAU OF PLANT INDUSTRY:
http://www.mdac.state.ms.us/n_library/departments/bpi/index_bpi.html

HONEY BEE PROGRAM:
http://www.mdac.state.ms.us/n_library/departments/bpi/bpi_honey.html

And to quote Forrest Gump “and that is all I have to say on the that”.


----------



## valleyman

Broke-T, 
Since you are 100 miles from Bolton, I would like to know if you know Robert and/or any of his family? You seem to be promoting the bad info against him. So if you have an agenda it would be proper if you explained why. Maybe you have a point also. Even though I have had nothing but the best of all worlds in my dealings with Russell Apiaries, it would be good to know of others bad dealings with them and let us make up our own minds if they actually are not what they seem. I do not know any of them personally and have never even spoken with any of them on the phone, so no I don't know them. 
But I do know that Dr. Robert Russell has helped many on this forum and his own as well. I know that he is a very busy man and still takes time to help when he can. *I also know that some on this forum are very aggitated and jealous of the adulation and thanks that he gets for his help. *I think, that they think, he is doing it to further his business. I say if he is then more power to him as long as he is continuing to be a help. I also think that he has all the business he can handle as it is. He sells all he can produce now. The only times I get on Beesource anymore is to check and see what a select few has said. 

Good Luck! Brent Cook


----------



## rrussell6870

Charles, NO bees, queens, etc have been removed, sold or otherwise from the quarantined yard, so please explain what that yard has to do with any of this...


----------



## Barry

MSBEEINSPECTOR said:


> Anyone that knows me personally, and my character, would laugh at the accusations and innuendos concerning bribes and discussing the particulars of any case.


Thank you for weighing in on this. I laughed, as I think most did.



> I will however, address two portions of the Rules and Regulations governing the laws of Mississippi and direct those that are interested, to a link to read for yourselves the entire law and regs. Certain concerns several of you expressed should be answered, for the most part, in the two portions of the regs. In light of all said in this forum, please read 105.09 and understand the beekeepers responsibility in staying in compliance with state law.


I'm certain there is more to this story than most of us know. It appears there is an issue with how one wants to read and apply the laws. I get the bigger picture now. Thanks.


----------



## Barry

rrussell6870 said:


> NO bees, queens, etc have been removed, sold or otherwise from the quarantined yard,


How does this fit with 105.09; "or quarantined beekeeping operations"

The wording is much broader than just a yard.


----------



## valleyman

Ok, while I was posting my last post the Ms. inspector in question made his post. I went to the links provided by him and please point out to me where Russell Apiaries are under quarentine, or any part of it. It said that they couldn't ship any diseased bees from any location that had any disease or other problems. What do the rest of you make of Baldwin Bees unwarranted claims.


----------



## rrussell6870

MSBEEINSPECTOR said:


> I am the Mississippi inspector that this discussion has centered on along with a beekeeper from Alabama. Anyone that knows me personally, and my character, would laugh at the accusations and innuendos concerning bribes and discussing the particulars of any case. However, I will remind each of you of something that is important to all of us that are strong proponents of “limited government”; it is call “freedom of information”.
> As far as defending myself – no need – just read scripture. It is only my responsibility to take every situation God allows in my life, to grow more like Jesus, and live my life in a way that points others to Christ. – SERMON OVER –


Never doubted that... this is why I believe that we could be friends...

I think that we just have an issue of misunderstanding of how my operation works...

Let me clarify it for you and everyone here so that maybe this type of issue does not arise in the future... 

My fathers operation has always been in MS and LA, with some interest (ownership and management) in hives in TX... Upon his failing health, his operations were limited to MS... I on the other hand have interest (ownership and management) in hives in over 11 states... upon the request of my father, I took over what was left of his operation after he removed my brother from it... there were very few hives left within that operation due to the poor management and abuse of the hives... the business name Russell Apiaries has long been connected to MS, so I can understand your assumptions... but I produce queens and bees from hives that are embedded in other operations for local handling... the reason that we asked for an inspection in MS was to comply with MS state code, not because we produce our products there.

Does that clear things up a bit?


----------



## Barry

Yes, keep it coming. So all the bees you sell come from locations outside of MS? That would be important to know.


----------



## rrussell6870

Barry said:


> How does this fit with 105.09; "or quarantined beekeeping operations"
> 
> The wording is much broader than just a yard.


The code and the quarantine notice clearly state "apiary yard location", "in accordance of the Mississippi bee disease act, section 69-25-103 and the bee disease regulations, section 105.01; the removal of any and all colonies of bees, queens, hives, combs, and or equipment FROM THE ABOVE MENTIONED APIARY YARD is hereby prohibited until the quarantine is revoked by the Bureau of Plant Industry.


----------



## Barry

So after reading some of the codes, it appears to me that the issue creating the conflict is how one interprets the code. 105.01 mentions "quarantined apiary(s)", giving weight to the word apiary to mean a particular yard. You say that yard is quarantined which satisfies the law. The rest of your operation has no restrictions on it. Am I accurately speaking for you? Are other's then saying that the law is broader than that and if one has a quarantined yard, then the whole operation is in effect, quarantined? However, if you have operations spread across several states, that adds another twist.


----------



## Oldtimer

Yes those are the two interpretations that are being made,by the two different "camps".

But hey. If a guy has AFB in a bee yard, so quaranteens it, even to the extreme of burning clothing used when visiting that yard, are some saying bees cannot be sold from a different yard, 50 miles away, that has had zero contact with the other yard that used to have some AFB hive?

C'mon, lets apply some common sense!

And if anyone says no, common sense does not apply, it has to be the "letter of the law", to the most extreme interpretation, then to you I say, no bees can be sold, ever. Because all bees, even treated ones, will have a few varroa mites. A violation of the letter of the law. So nobody's allowed to buy any bees now. Commerce stops.


----------



## Barry

rrussell6870 said:


> The code and the quarantine notice clearly state "apiary yard location", section 69-25-103 [snip] section 105.01;


But it also clearly states in 105.09 "quarantined beekeeping operations" for those wanting to purchase. I think an attorney is needed to say for certain what "quarantined beekeeping operations" mean. An operation that has any quarantined yards, or an operation that has everything quarantined?


----------



## Barry

Oldtimer said:


> C'mon, lets apply some common sense!


There are many laws that lack common sense!


----------



## Oldtimer

You don't have to be an attorney to figure that one out. Wanna buy bees again, ever?


----------



## Thermwood

Aparrently nobody is reading the definitions at the top of the rules and regs:

2. “Apiary” – Any site or location whereby one or more colonies of bees are kept
at anytime during the year.

11. “Registered Location” – A site whereby bee colonies are placed once
approved by the State Apiary Inspector constituting said placement of bees
within a said forty acre plot.
12. “Application for Registration” – A specific form furnished by the Bureau
of Plant Industry for registering Apiaries in Mississippi.
13. “Apiary Registration Number” – A number assigned by the Bureau of
Plant Industry to a specific apiary once its registration is approved.
14. “Quarantined” – Prohibition of removal of any bees, combs, hive parts,
honey, wax, propalis, etc from an apiary without written permission of the
State Apiary Inspector.

105.09 It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly purchase, receive or transport
bees from quarantined areas or quarantined beekeeping operations whether instate
or out-of-state.

155.09 does not refer only to beekeeping operations

I am not surprised that wasn't noticed by the lead prosecutor......


----------



## David LaFerney

What a quagmire. Being in public business is like making your living with a dunking booth. Probably inspectors somehow involved in that too.


----------



## sqkcrk

Broke-T said:


> It seems that many are quick to assume baldwinbees had an agenda. He was just trying to let others know what he found out.
> 
> Again many are quick to assume that the bee inspector was dirty and wanted a bribe, even made it into a joke.
> 
> All the time Robert gets a free pass.
> 
> Baldwinbees posted the number so you can check it out for yourselves. How many of you have called? I have.
> 
> Let the buyer beware.
> 
> Johnny


This is true. But baldwin didn't answer my question when I possed it, asking for clarification.

Robert gets a free pass? Seems to me like he has had to do alot of damage control. Time is money and he has spent alot of time here explaining things from his point of view.

Who did you speak to when you called the number? What questions did you ask and what replies did you get? I'd like to know. Care to share?

Buyer beware? I'd rather buy bees from a man honest enuf to own up to having a few cases of AFB and saying why than I would most beekeepers who would say, "No, I don't have any AFB." All the time knowing they have a Hospital Yard.

Whether it is as common now as it once was, many commercial operations have a Hospital Yard where they take their AFB hives to treat, in hopes that they can clean up the disease. I burn any I find. So, I guess I have a Cemetary Yd. Except it's more like a Pier.


----------



## Barry Digman

I think you meant you have a pyre.


----------



## beemandan

sqkcrk said:


> What questions did you ask and what replies did you get? I'd like to know. Care to share?





Broke-T said:


> I was told his entire operation is under quarentine and he should not be shipping any bees from any of his operations.


Asked and answered.


----------



## sqkcrk

Barry said:


> How does this fit with 105.09; "or quarantined beekeeping operations"
> 
> The wording is much broader than just a yard.


This is scetchy to me. How can a regulator in one State impose a quarantine on someone or someone's business in another State. Isn't the bee yard in question the only bee yard under Russell Apiarys control in MS? Maybe the Quarantine of the Beekeeping Operation known as Russell Apiaries makes the selling of Queens and Nucs from other Bee Yards in other States forbidden in MS?


----------



## sqkcrk

Barry Digman said:


> I think you meant you have a pyre.


I left my dictionary in my other set of cloths, but yes. Pyre.


----------



## sqkcrk

Thank you.


beemandan said:


> Asked and answered.


----------



## baldwinbees

everyone on here has access to a phone&obviously saw the beginning of this thread where the Mississippi Dept. of Ag. phone # was.got ????call the number!simple.I'm a small hobbyist that wanted some queens,did some research&found out I could go to jail if I dealt with him.Maybe ya'll are homeless,so 3 hots&a cot is cool.Maybe ya'll aren't worried that AFB could be spread throughout the U.S.He,RRussell, answered my questions ...yes he is quarantined,yes he has AFB,&yes he is selling bees.I haven't deficated/defamated his charachter,just stated these facts&you can take it how you want to.I DON'T have a brother's sister's cousin in the bee biz,nor do I sell bees.This was strictly informative&do with the info how you like


----------



## baldwinbees

oh yeah,how many of all the people replying on this thread called to verify???????the magic #..........2.possibly a few pending


----------



## WLC

You were a mere 'tool' in someone else's agenda.

I wonder what the investigators will turn up?


----------



## beeG

baldwinbees said:


> this is not an accusation,but a confirmation.the number is listed above.they say you are quarentined.straighten it out with them.


I must note something this poster obviously has not taken into consideration. 

Due to the fact that Mr Russell is of a size that it is mandated he is regulated and inspected. You see the system at work which protects the whole. Yet the thousands of smaller operations that are not regulated and inspected? Can you explain what happens when they get AFB? This is another example of how legal licensed businesses can lose out over unregulated hobby businesses. And, the whole has more of a chance to lose because they may avoid the cleaner larger regulated entity, for the smaller unregulated uninspected entity, continuing a viscous never ending cycle. Which could be where Mr Russells one yard picked it up. 

Now I have not read this entire thread, but this first page I must reply to. I find this very disturbing


----------



## Barry Digman

baldwinbees said:


> &found out I could go to jail if I dealt with him.


How does one find out that they'll go to jail for dealing with him? Did the inspector tell you that?


----------



## WLC

The old 'jail' threat? That guy has no shame.

He's the one who has to worry about 'money laundering' on top of 'soliciting'.


----------



## Broke-T

105.09 – It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly purchase, receive or transport bees from quarantined areas or quarantined beekeeping operations whether in-state or out-of-state.

This applies only if you know he is quarentined and recieve the bees anyway. I think it carries a $500.00 fine.

Johnny


----------



## sqkcrk

Give it up WLC. You are seeing what you want to w/out evidence.


----------



## sqkcrk

Broke-T said:


> 105.09 – It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly purchase, receive or transport bees from quarantined areas or quarantined beekeeping operations whether in-state or out-of-state.
> 
> This applies only if you know he is quarentined and recieve the bees anyway. I think it carries a $500.00 fine.
> 
> Johnny


So, apparently, according to Law, if a beekeeper in Alabama buys a Queen from Russell Apiaries, which produces queens in some State other than Mississippi, said beekeeper could be issued a fine by the State of Mississippi? I'd like to know if that is so and how often it has been tried and how often fines have been collected. Ever? Often? I bet not.


----------



## WLC

'Give it up WLC. You are seeing what you want to w/out evidence.'

The Doc said so, The inspector tried to sell him alot of nucs from 'a friend'.

That's soliciting. 

Maybe it bugs you that a fellow inspector is up a creek?


----------



## Barry

And that was already addressed, right from the horses mouth:

" Anyone that knows me personally, and my character, would laugh at the accusations and innuendos concerning bribes and discussing the particulars of any case."

So you are seeing what you want to see.


----------



## baldwinbees

when you go to the Miss. Dept of Ag website,click bureaus&departments,then click honey bee program.It is right there.out in the open for all to see.does anyone drive a car before they buy it????put your foot in the water before you jump in????


----------



## WLC

In the case of public employees, all that's required is that a claim is made for an investigation to be opened.

That's how that happens.


----------



## Barry

So if you're so sure, do something about it!!




baldwinbees said:


> go to the Miss. Dept of Ag website,click bureaus&departments,then click honey bee program.


How about providing a direct URL to the page mentioned.

Here: http://www.mdac.state.ms.us/n_library/departments/bpi/bpi_honey.html


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> 'Give it up WLC. You are seeing what you want to w/out evidence.'
> 
> The Doc said so, The inspector tried to sell him alot of nucs from 'a friend'.
> 
> That's soliciting.
> 
> Maybe it bugs you that a fellow inspector is up a creek?


I must have missed that. Ain't an Inspector anymore, so, no.


----------



## beeG

beeG said:


> Now I have not read this entire thread, but this first page I must reply to. I find this very disturbing


I have had posters misunderstand me so I shall clarify what I find disturbing. I find it disturbing the origonal poster has posted that statement, and keeps it going. I hope other beekeepers are learning from this. Especially my fellow new bee keepers. Because the mistakes we get away with. Large operations are not allowed to make. Because as you can see FOIA can stink for some businesses. And can be very confusing, and can easily be mislead by laymen. I did purchace a sunkist and a moonbean from Mr Russell for next year and I can not wait until next year  I did read the entire thread and obviously Mr Russell was able to determine the cause and fix it. I do not believe he deserves these scarllet letters. For those into survivor bees. being that AFB is ever present. Obvioulsy they had a good immunue system and with limited care too.


----------



## rrussell6870

Broke-T said:


> I was told his entire operation is under quarentine and he should not be shipping any bees from any of his operations.
> 
> Johnny


Charles, did you say this? I am having trouble believing that you knowingly told someone a false statement such as this...


----------



## rrussell6870

baldwinbees said:


> I'm a small hobbyist that wanted some queens,did some research&found out I could go to jail if I dealt with him.Maybe ya'll are homeless,so 3 hots&a cot is cool.Maybe ya'll aren't worried that AFB could be spread throughout the U.S.He,RRussell, answered my questions ...yes he is quarantined,yes he has AFB,&yes he is selling bees.


Charles, did you make these statements also?


----------



## baldwinbees

sorry Barry,my skills on a computer are limited.I guess my knowledge of AFB also.Maybe I should see if RRussell would enlighten me.seriously.After reading the history of his company I would feel it a privilege to visit the Russell Research Foundation&speak to some entomologists.I am a fairly empty vessel that could use some knowledge.I'm not afraid to make a public apology&it would be well worth it .Anyone else enjoy that privilege yet?I bet its even more enlightening than state meetings 'cause it would be 1on1


----------



## rrussell6870

Now THAT is a real man. I would be happy to help you.


----------



## Barry Digman

baldwinbees said:


> when you go to the Miss. Dept of Ag website,click bureaus&departments,then click honey bee program.It is right there.out in the open for all to see.



Strange but true...





> Miss. Code Ann. § 69-25-109 (Copy w/ Cite)
> Pages: 1
> 
> 
> 
> Miss. Code Ann. § 69-25-109
> 
> 
> MISSISSIPPI CODE of 1972
> 
> *** Current through the 2011 Regular Session and 1st Extraordinary Session ***
> 
> TITLE 69. AGRICULTURE, HORTICULTURE, AND ANIMALS
> CHAPTER 25. PLANTS, PLANT AND BEE DISEASES
> ARTICLE 3. BEE DISEASES
> 
> Miss. Code Ann. § 69-25-109 (2011)
> 
> § 69-25-109. Penalty for violations of this article
> 
> 
> Any person, firm or corporation violating any of the provisions of this article or of the rules or regulations of the Mississippi Department of Agriculture and Commerce, adopted in accordance with the provisions thereof shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction shall be punished by a fine of not more than Five Hundred Dollars ($ 500.00) or by imprisonment for not more than six (6) months in the county jail.
> 
> HISTORY: SOURCES: Codes, Hemingway's 1921 Supp. § 3636f; 1930, § 6983; 1942, § 5005; Laws, 1920, ch. 209; Laws, 1972, ch. 369, § 7; Laws, 1991, ch. 530, § 24, eff from and after July 1, 1991.
> 
> 
> http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/mscode/


----------



## Barry Digman

It appears we're done.


----------



## Ted Kretschmann

Robert, if you only knew the back story of this story that occured in Alabama because of this story since the Alabama state beekeepers meeting because of Rumor mongering. A lot of explaining has been done to the powers that bee to enlighten those enquiring minds to the truth. In simple terms a bombshell full of crap has been defused.inch: TED


----------



## rrussell6870

Ugh... rumors, misunderstandings, assumptions, accusations, and misstatements... its like a beauty pageant dressing room around here sometimes. Lol.


----------



## baldwinbees

I was told basically that if I purchased bees or equipment from an apiary[no named apiary]under quarantine that it was a criminal offense.he quoted the statute&the law how it read.our inspectors are great guys,but they wear many hats.jack of all trades&master of none.getting some 1on1 with someone who's specialty is bugs &getting to pick their brain would be great!BUT I've a lot more labor than money...is your foundation a non-profit non-charging type ?can I trade labor while learning?


----------



## deknow

....I'm looking around at the cast of characters.....a beauty pageant doesn't come to mind.

deknow


----------



## rrussell6870

Just to make it clear once more so that viewers do not have to read an entire book...

MS has no authority to restrict any bees outside of the state... one yard was quarantined due to three hives of afb, which were treated instead of burned so that the effects of the treatment could be studied... no bees, comb, queens, etc have left that yard at all... nor will they... under state code, the yard should not have been quarantined in the first place as it was well within the limitations of the state code... the afb was treated and gone immediately following the inspection and the a reinspection was set for June 1st but still has not happened... 

No matter what you may have been told, no one can go to jail, or be fined for purchasing queens from Russell Apiaries...

This whole ordeal was the product of an inspector that misunderstood the workings of this company and thus passed along misinformation...

The inspector is a nice guy, and I believe that this issue is over and we can all move on with this being water under the bridge...


----------



## ga.beeman

russells apairies is a very good group of people to work with. Anyone that has had bees any period of time (100 hives or more) has more than likely had foul brood at one time or the other. these people are hard working people that really care about the bees and not just the dollar. I would and have bought queens from them and this wouldnt stop me from buying from them again. This thread should have never listed anyone names. these people produce top quality queens and bees. Keep up the good work Russells, you have many loyal customers out their that appreciate what you offer


----------



## Barry

rrussell6870 said:


> I believe that this issue is over and we can all move on with this being water under the bridge...


Does that mean the thread can be closed? Anyone object?


----------



## deknow

...it would be nice to let the inspector reply to Robert's requests for clarification of what he said. I expect that there is more than one beekeeper on this board that is under his jurisdiction.

deknow


----------



## Barry Digman

Dean should be sanctioned somehow for posting a Monty Python reference that will now be dancing around in my limited capacity head the rest of the night....


----------



## deknow

...where is that african sparrow smiley when you need it!

deknow


----------



## Barry

The clock is ticking. This thread will be closed tomorrow morning when I leave the house. Speak now or forever hold your piece.

http://www.indyarocks.com/videos/Wedding-gone-wrong-131949


----------



## AstroBee

You've allowed 200 (yes, I've read everyone) posts filled with misunderstanding, ignorance, and just plain bad manners, and in posts 184 and 185 Robert has asked direct questions to the bee inspector, which I feel deserves a response. I suspect that the inspector will choose not to reply, as by now he must feel pretty bad for what he has created. Given this, it would only be right to allow Robert to have the final word on if and when this thread is closed.


----------



## sqkcrk

Barry said:


> hold your piece.


"piece"? I think you mean PEACE.


----------



## Barry

Appears to be a Freudian slip!


----------



## jim lyon

Nice link Barry but here is what kept popping into my head as a read through this. It happens to be one of my favorite childrens stories mostly because it applies to so many things in life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfxf_iwS4Nc


----------



## sqkcrk

Barry said:


> Appears to be a Freudian slip!


Made me wonder if he meant what he wrote or meant what he intended to write.


----------



## waynesgarden

I looked at the link to the Miss. Honeybee program website and, unless I am missing something, there is nothing there stating that there is a quarantine in effect for Russell Apiaries. (If I am mistaken, please point me in the right direction.)

I read the post by MSBEEINSPECTOR and, after unecessary preaching, he fails to confirm the original poster's claims, nor does he state, catagorically, that Dr. Russell's apiaries are under quarantine by the State.

I have no reason to disbelieve that some here have called the state employee and have been told by him that there is a quarantine in effect, nor any of their other claims, such as being warned of criminal liability if making a purchase or being directed to other specific commercial sources by the official in question.

But I do not see _any _official announcement of this on the official state website, nor do I see the person who claims to be an official of the State of Mississippi _confirming _such a claim here. So I ask MSBEEINSPECTOR, if you are indeed the state Bee Inspector, is there a quarantine on shipments of bees from Dr.Russell's apiaries, incuding every apiariy of his that has not been found to have AFB, or is this something that you only tell to those who call the magic phone number?

I would think that something as important as a quarantine of bees from an apiary in the state would be made public and not just whispered to those few that make a special phone inquiry.

Lacking a response from MSBEEINSPECTOR, I can only say I have looked at the laws that he linked to and it seems to me that, if what he is being reported as saying to phone callers is true, he is ignoring the basic definitions cited within those laws and misapplying the regulations. It is as if a petty bureaucrat in the Health Department found a violation in a fast food restaurant in one town and shut down every one of that chain's facilities in the entire state. Or worse, spread false rumors of a supposed shutdown.

MSBEEINSPECTOR, if you are indeed the State Bee Inspector, what exactly is the official legal status of Russell Apiaries regarding their ability to ship bees and bee products? Please don't hide behind merely posting links to regulations. Tell us publically what is the status.

Wayne


----------



## jaybees

Broke-t left a link for beekeepers in Mississippi that were certified by the state of Mississippi to sell bees to be
shipped out of state. Did any of you (including Barry) bother to read it. Did you notice that
Robert Russell was NOT on the list. The Russell Apiaries on the list is his brother. Baldwin bees
was not spreading rumor. Charles Wilson is a good state inspector, and beekeeper. OH and by the way, if
you think Robert Russell has 22,000 hives, put your tooth under your pillow and I'll leave you
a quarter!


----------



## RAK

hmm... 

This thread really shows how people have no respect to a DR. who care about genetics and healthy bees.


----------



## TwinkieBee

JAYBEES, you say this like you know Robert, his brother, and the inspector personally. May we ask who you are and what affiliation you have with the 3. I see you're in Hattiesburg are you friends with the inspector?


----------



## rrussell6870

Barry, if you do not mind, can we keep this thread open a little longer to give the other parties a chance to respond to the recent questions? 

Jaybees, my brothers name has been on that list since last season... not sure how it was allowed to remain considering that the main location of his hives is the location that the afb came from in the first place and I know that he has not treated and only had about 30 hives as of last fall, so I do not see him burning any... 

A hive from THAT apiary was sold by my father last year to a gentleman in south ms, and another to a gentleman in hattiesburg and Charles found both hives to be infected... the three hives in my apiary that were infected also came from THAT yard... so that's 5 hives out of 45 that were there at the time that were infected... there is no way that the yard was free of afb for this season... at least one if the operations on that list of people that you are telling to rely upon has a yard currently under quarantine by Charles as well specifically due to a hive that came from my brothers home yard... and btw, I have never said that I have 22,000 hives... the only place that I can see you getting that from would be discussion about my fathers top numbers long ago... 

Nothing gets my blood boiling as much as the mention of my brother, so while we are relying on the "freedom of information act" maybe the good people of this industry should do a search of the registered ms sex offenders and see just who they should be doing business with if they follow that list... maybe they should be contacting a different state office to get information about a seller, like the MS Attorney Generals Office, and see what the people that are investigating my fathers death think about my brother... I am not on that list because I do not sell bees from ms and I am and always have been a professional and responsible bee keeper... I do not know who you are or what your connection is with my brother or Charles, but I can assure you that I am the least of anyone's "disease concerns"... 

On second thought, Barry, you can close the thread whenever you are ready, it would be a shame to let anyone say anything else that could be used against them, and my patience with this has about run out.


----------

