# Banking Virgin Queens



## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Virgins*

I never used them, but an old timer around here who sold a lot of cells would let her emerge in to a tube of hdwe cloth ( right on the cell bar ) then intro with candy in 2 days. Claimed it worked well.


----------



## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Virgin intro*

I should have said WITHIN two days. When they first come out they're nearly as big as a mated queen.


----------



## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

I bank virgin queens for instrumental insemination work all of the time. There are a couple of key points that make banking virgin queens successful. First, a well fed queenless bank with plenty of young nurse bees and a little young brood once a week is best. Second, a cage with the right size mesh to protect the queen's tarsi is also helpful. I have found that Koehnen’s Mini cages with a 9/16 hole in the end works very well. I place the queen cells in the cages before they are due to emerge and then put them in the bank. A small pea sized ball of queen candy placed in the cage at the time the cells are transferred really helps survivability. 24 hours after the queens emerge, I go back and crush the queen cells as some queens will crawl back into their cells and die. Believe it or not they actually seem to get stuck.

Here is a link that shows a frame I use for banking. Notice the bar that holds the cages in place also provides a hiding place for the virgin queens and prevents the workers from eating the candy through the screen.

http://latshawapiaries.com/banking_queens.htm


----------



## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Thanks*

JSL You have some experience obviously. My own curiosity asks: How long could I hold a virgin in a bank or builder and still introduce to a nuc for open mating? I'm guessing that Sunny is wondering the same.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Tom G. Laury said:


> How long could I hold a virgin in a bank or builder and still introduce to a nuc for open mating?


Larry Connor once told me the virgin has to be mated within 2 weeks...more like 9 or 10 days. After that, she won't fly, and will wind up as a drone layer.


----------



## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Tom, your question is beyond my experience level.  I bank queens to hold them prior to and after insemination. As Mike wrote, the ideal time for insemination is somewhere around the natural mating age of 10 days. I have inseminated 6-8 week old virgins that go on to produce strong productive colonies.

My little experience with banking virgins tells me that they are best introduced with 24-36 hours after emergence. I have introduced older virgins, but it requires a lot of care to get them introduced successfully. A lot of it has to do with the virgin's pheromone levels, which are very high right after emergence, but then drop significantly until just after a successful mating flight.

There have been numerous studies to identify successful ways to introduce virgin queens, but from what I have read it is a difficult task with a great deal of variability.


----------



## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

JSL said:


> My little experience with banking virgins tells me that they are best introduced with 24-36 hours after emergence. I have introduced older virgins, but it requires a lot of care to get them introduced successfully. A lot of it has to do with the virgin's pheromone levels, which are very high right after emergence, but then drop significantly until just after a successful mating flight.


Howdy folks,
I bank lots of virgins for II and for introduction also. I've had much better luck banking virgins in cages WITH attendants, and candy, just like a shipped queen. However, I'm going to try using the method Joe describes, again. It is certainly easier 

Introducing virgins can be tricky since they _fly_ and are often not what the nuc bees are expecting biologically. Slow intro with a small candy plug (this is where the attendants do come in handy--caring for the virgin) or even a push-in cage helps.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


----------



## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Tom G. Laury said:


> JSL You have some experience obviously. My own curiosity asks: How long could I hold a virgin in a bank or builder and still introduce to a nuc for open mating? I'm guessing that Sunny is wondering the same.


We've naturally mated 10-day-old-virgins that have been caged with attendants, successfully. We have not tried any older virgins. I feel that contact from the attendants helps to keep the virgins healthy while in confinement.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanks for the info guys......... :thumbsup:


----------



## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*what methods did*

The banking of queens is supposed to work better for example if you bank the italians with Italian stock.

Ernie


----------



## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Larry Connor once told me the virgin has to be mated within 2 weeks...more like 9 or 10 days. After that, she won't fly, and will wind up as a drone layer.


 I have heard this to, but have found it to be false. I have seen on numerous occasions foul weather delay mating for 17 to 20 days and eventually achieved well mated queens as the weather improved. This was done with introduced emerging cells into mating nuces rather than banking the virgin. 

Virgins will bank well with enough immediate attention from young bees, but the sooner they are free to do what they are hard wired to do the better the results seem to be.


----------



## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

I would have to agree JBJ. It has been a terrible spring for mating queens this year, rain, cold, rain, cold.................... Argggg!

But I had several queens that didn't make it out in 10 days for a fact. I had already made plans to deal with the hives when the weather finally broke. But everyone of them made it out in the 3rd week and turned out to be some of the fattest and prettiest queens anyone could ever hope to see. All of them exploding with brood in their hives.


----------



## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

JSL said:


> My little experience with banking virgins tells me that they are best introduced with 24-36 hours after emergence. I have introduced older virgins, but it requires a lot of care to get them introduced successfully. A lot of it has to do with the virgin's pheromone levels, which are very high right after emergence, but then drop significantly until just after a successful mating flight.
> .


Joe,

I have read that introduction of virgins is tricky but I have dropped many virgins on frames of bees (queenless for a few days) and they seem to be ignored. I like to take them as soon as I can after emergence and drop them right onto a frame of bees. They usually run for a cell of nectar and don't draw much attention. The only exceptions proved to be where I had missed a queen in the nuc that I placed the virgin or a nuc that was not queenless long enough. Can you weigh in on this?


----------



## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

HVH,

My experience is similar to yours. Newly emerged virgin queens, those less than 24-36 hours old are relatively easy to introduce. Shortly after emergence, their pheromone level is relatively high and their aggressive tendencies relatively low. As you have observed, they are more interested in eating than fighting, which often helps with their acceptance. If you try introducing an older virgin queen, you will notice her defensive response and that of the workers is much different. The virgin queen will often raise up legs in a defensive posture when aggressively approached by workers. Once the workers start attacking the virgin, it often ends in death.

Just my 2 cents...

Joe


----------



## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

JSL said:


> HVH,
> 
> My experience is similar to yours. Newly emerged virgin queens, those less than 24-36 hours old are relatively easy to introduce. Shortly after emergence, their pheromone level is relatively high and their aggressive tendencies relatively low. As you have observed, they are more interested in eating than fighting, which often helps with their acceptance. If you try introducing an older virgin queen, you will notice her defensive response and that of the workers is much different. The virgin queen will often raise up legs in a defensive posture when aggressively approached by workers. Once the workers start attacking the virgin, it often ends in death.
> 
> ...


This is why I am confused - I thought I remembered reading that the queens have low pheromone levels when newly emerged which seems more intuitive. Since the other bees don't seem to notice her it makes more sense that she has no detectable scent. I could be wrong so maybe someone can set me straight.


----------



## Gabriel (Apr 27, 2008)

I have banked virgin queens, a big hive with many young bees and capped brood, like a matted queen bank.
No more than 10 days.
I banked with JZBZ queen cages and the virgin queens alone in the queen cage.
No more than 4% dead.

Gabriel


----------



## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Larry Connor once told me the virgin has to be mated within 2 weeks...more like 9 or 10 days. After that, she won't fly, and will wind up as a drone layer.


Mike, the late Roger A. Morse of Cornell wrote in his book on queen rearing it was more like 3 weeks. Not sure if there's an exact science on this time length. I had a similar experience as JBJ describes.


----------

