# stinking hive -- AFB?



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

I don't know if it is AFB or EFB or something else, but I would destroy the bees and the hive before whatever it is gets passed to your other hives. It doesn't sound like it is worth taking a chance with.


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## YonahB (Jun 26, 2014)

yea, that is what I was thinking too. I might just go burn them right now.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I have hives doing similar it seems to disappear when effectively treated for mites.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> I have hives doing similar it seems to disappear when effectively treated for mites.


Ditto on that. Dead brood smells, and one thing that can lead to dead brood is not enough nurse bees. I don't know about the occurrence of AFB in your area, but around here it is rare. If you burn the hive without an accurate diagnosis, you might be sealing the fate of the colony instead of allowing for time to treat it and turn it around.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Post pictures of your brood.

No need to burn until you have a lab report that says it's AFB (only reason to burn)

From your description it sounds like EFB, which is treatable. And equipment can be cleaned. It could also be mites. 

See my posts and the links.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Newbie-could-use-advice&p=1293636#post1293636


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

You may be smelling nasty ass honey or nectar spoiled by effin Small Hive Beetle infestation.

Look through your frames.

AFB is easy enough to diagnose...

BUT SHB larva everywhere is even easier....
SO TELL WHAT DO YOU SEE beyond your nose?


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## YonahB (Jun 26, 2014)

I will get a pic later. The hive has had problems since I cut it out. The queen was in there but there were eggs everywhere. It looked like laying workers, up to five eggs in a cell. I shook it out to make sure, before they had a chance to build up. The hive dwindled. The brood has never gotten to the point of being capped. The bees were sparse so I shrunk the hive down to a nuc box so they could cover the frames. The queen seems to be laying fine but the brood is not getting very far along before it dies. It is a pretty sad sight. 

All of my hives are thriving and vigorous. AFB is very rare in these parts. I just don't want to jeopardize my other hives.


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## YonahB (Jun 26, 2014)

Also there are ho hive beetles to speak of in my yard. 
There is a couple frames with honey that are fine.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

This is the time of year when new beekeepers smell goldenrod honey being ripened, and think they have foulbrood.

If it smells like dirty gym socks that have been left to ripen for a few weeks in a plastic bag, it is goldenrod.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

AFB would effect capped brood...if they are not getting capped at all (which is what you descr8be) I would not suspect afb.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

YonahB said:


> I have bees that I had helped someone cut out of a house...


Sprayed with pesticide... The homeowner probably said not but they lie.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Chemguy said:


> Ditto on that. Dead brood smells, and one thing that can lead to dead brood is not enough nurse bees. I don't know about the occurrence of AFB in your area, but around here it is rare. If you burn the hive without an accurate diagnosis, you might be sealing the fate of the colony instead of allowing for time to treat it and turn it around.


Cut out a piece of comb and send it to the bee lab. They'll e-mail you the results and it's not guessing. (get some facts before you burn anything)

Someone please post the address and shipping info or a reference to it.

Am having a problem with a couple colonies that got robbed out so bad that they have nothing to feed the nurses with and therefore the nurses well... crap runs downhill. In my case it's a lack of field bees. The queen quits laying once she hasn't been well-fed herself and ...the colony dwindles. 

I'm uniting the weakest with colonies that need a better queen and have resources to spare and a sick queen, un-mated, or none. It is very cool how the bees give you just what they need if you have enough colonies.

For instance: I have had a pair of strong ones go sour and a couple weak ones that have struggled and struggled despite having well-mated queens. The solution is simple and all I needed was some newspaper.


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## YonahB (Jun 26, 2014)

deknow said:


> This is the time of year when new beekeepers smell goldenrod honey being ripened, and think they have foulbrood.
> 
> If it smells like dirty gym socks that have been left to ripen for a few weeks in a plastic bag, it is goldenrod.


The goldenrod smell is sweet to my nose. This is like the dead rat you found behind the refrigerator. 

I have been keeping bees a few years. Experienced a few things, but never this smell. Sending it to the lab would be useful -- I am just worried about infecting the other hives. I have 12 other hives in that yard that are doing great. I could put it on the other side of the property until I get results back. Anyone know how long it takes?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Try a Terramiacin treatment. It will clean up the disease. It will not clean up the spores.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

I don't know much about this place but I think this is where you start. They analyse bee stuff for us all. It's a service and we should use it. 

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=7472

Bee Disease Diagnosis
Bee Research Laboratory
Building 306 Room 316
Beltsville Agricultural Research Center-East
Beltsville, Maryland 20705


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Send a sample... otherwise there are milk tests you can do at home that would tell you with pretty good certainty if you need to dig a hole and light the torch or if you just need to let them die out and clean up the hive for next year.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

If the OP's description is accurate, no brood is gettimg capped.

I'm baffled by the mantra that it should be tested for AFB.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Beltsville will test it for EFB too. They tested my sample for both.

The OP says he thinks it's AFB... I think he's probably more likely to listen to the lab than to a bunch of "randoms" on Beesource... or at least I would be. The lab confirmed that what looked like a case of EFB (in my case) wasn't. I took care of the mites and the bees took care of whatever it was that was making it look like they had EFB.

The only reason I'd suggest to test is because 1) it's freaking easy and 2) the OP sounded like he was going to go burn a bee hive because of it. Seems like confirming that it ISN'T by doing a simple test is a prudent course of action.


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## YonahB (Jun 26, 2014)

I sent a sample on 8/10. Moved the hive further away from my other hives. I will let you know what it says.


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## YonahB (Jun 26, 2014)

for everyone who shared -- I received the results from Beltsville and the smell, well, it wasn't goldenrod smell :s...The results showed European Foul Brood and Chalk Brood. Lesson learned -- when you do a cut out watch it for a while before placing it around your healthy hives.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

How are you going to proceed?

Let me know if you have any question. I have helped a lot of people identify and recover from some bad cases.

I would also like to point out for other that are following EFB usually has little to no smell the reason this hive smelled foul was the fact that the population had dwindled and the bees did not clean out the infected cells. It also had two disease which is not the norm. 

Follow the links for treatment options.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Newbie-could-use-advice&p=1293636#post1293636


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## YonahB (Jun 26, 2014)

That hive was down to six frames when I realized what was going on. It has dwindled since to almost nothing. I will let it go and destroy the box and frames -- it was an old one. 

There was one hive I had swapped a frame with. The frame was one that had drawn comb I had put in the infected hive. It had nothing in it, so I swapped it with a brood comb from one of my stronger hives. I was thinking I would give the hive that I had done the swap with a terramycin patty. I haven't noticed anything about that hive as of yet, but thought the patty would be a good measure.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Send sample to bee lab before destroying anything. Don't think I would destroy equipment based on internet diagnoses even if it's "old".


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## YonahB (Jun 26, 2014)

aunt betty said:


> Send sample to bee lab before destroying anything. Don't think I would destroy equipment based on internet diagnoses even if it's "old".


Read the post. I sent samples to Beltsville..... It has European foul brood. I am not really too concerned about the equipment -- it was old. I rather be safe than sorry.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

White, mushy, doesn't rope, dies before capping. This is not AFB.

Which is not to say there is not AFB, but if there is any AFB, there is not much at this stage.

You talk about multiple LW eggs, but also talk about a queen. Is there a queen? If the hive is weak due to being cut out, and has LW drone brood, many of these larvae will die young and look as you describe.

However EFB, poisoning, 1/2 moon disease, chilling, or mites, are several other likely candidates to cause the issues you describe, best see what the bee lab tells you. When you get their results post back here and folks can guide you on where to next.


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## YonahB (Jun 26, 2014)

YonahB said:


> for everyone who shared -- I received the results from Beltsville and the smell, well, it wasn't goldenrod smell :s...The results showed European Foul Brood and Chalk Brood. Lesson learned -- when you do a cut out watch it for a while before placing it around your healthy hives.


Thank you for all the advice to get the test.  I did it already. It has EFB and had Chalk Brood. This is what the fellow from Beltsville, MD, at the bee lab, wrote to me after testing a comb/brood sample. Any advice as to how to deal with it would be appreciated.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Why are you considering dealing with it? You said the hive dwindled to nothing and the equipment is old. IMHO it is not worth fooling with and endangering your entire apiary. I am sure you have lots more to do for your other bees with winter coming on. I would keep a close eye on the other hive you swapped a frame with.
The equipment is easily replaced, bees and your time not so much.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't know much about these things cos I've never used antibiotics, but can't EFB be treated with antibiotics?

He would have to make the call, even if the disease was cured, is the hive going to winter? If not, rather than invest more bees next season into diseased equipment, yes burning the whole thing may be the cheaper option.

And, I too have seen various diseases in wild hives, natural comb is not a total cure all.


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## woodstock22 (Jun 28, 2013)

To destroy a hive: Plug all entrances and exits... seal the bees in. Lift top cover, pour in one cup of gasoline and replace lid. This will quickly kill the bees and keep them from being robbed out. Burn as soon as possible in a safe manner. Sorry for your loss.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

woodstock22 said:


> To destroy a hive: Plug all entrances and exits... seal the bees in. Lift top cover, pour in one cup of gasoline and replace lid. This will quickly kill the bees and keep them from being robbed out. Burn as soon as possible in a safe manner. Sorry for your loss.


I would add just one thing plug it at night so you have all the field bees if there still are any.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Is burning the normal thing for EFB now?

Thought that was AFB.


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## YonahB (Jun 26, 2014)

billabell said:


> Why are you considering dealing with it? You said the hive dwindled to nothing and the equipment is old. IMHO it is not worth fooling with and endangering your entire apiary. I am sure you have lots more to do for your other bees with winter coming on. I would keep a close eye on the other hive you swapped a frame with.
> The equipment is easily replaced, bees and your time not so much.


I am not considering saving or dealing with this hive. It is isolated 12 miles from my other bees. I will destroy that little sick hive. I am wondering if it would be prudent to treat the other hives that were in proximity of this disease before I knew what was happening. I read strong hives can deal with contact, and Terramycin treatments can deal with it if it is in the hive. I thought of treating the hive that had direct contact with a Terramycin patty for preventative measures. I do want to be thorough but not overboard. I have never had a foulbrood issue of any kind.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, it is possible to fix the EFB issue with the antibiotics.
The mites are the main cause of this I found out this year.
Either at the pre or post cap of the broods, the mites got inside the cells.
Then the house bees cannot take the dead pupae and larva out that got stuck
inside the cells resulting in a foul broods (EFB) situation. My next little bee experiment
will be to get rid of the mites in late June or early July to see if the foul broods will not exist in the early Fall.
The same thing will happen again if there is a mite infestation during the Spring build up then the foul broods will follow.
I got them now! Bad mites.


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