# Solid Brood - as a bad thing?



## High-On-Burlap (May 6, 2013)

When we select our breeders we look for a solid brood pattern, but do a hygienic test to check them as well. Many queens with solid brood patterns get rejected for just that reason.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Winter is getting to be long. I have been looking at VSH info on the Harbo site, watching Michael Palmer videos, and waiting for spring and this thought dawned on me after MP showed a requeened nuc in which the bees had been cleaning up chalkbrood.
> What if when selecting breeder queens with the most solid pattern we are actually selecting for the least hygienic bees?  Could that be possible? Could we be eliminating queens from consideration as breeders because their progeny have caused the brood pattern to be spottier because they are removing mites or problem larvae. :scratch:



Very good observation Adrian: We had the team from the beeinformed project here last week testing for our 2014 breeders. 
( see http://beeinformed.org/about/tier5/ if you are unfamiliar with what this is )

One of the guys mentioned the same thing when we were out giving the test subjects their annual drink of liquid nitro.... I do have the hygienic test results back but don't have brood ratings in hand at this moment. Will take a peak when we get all the rest of the data back and post correlations accordingly. Somewhere in all my piles there is the data from the the past few years............ hoping to see if it shows a trend. 

The big question is it better to use breeders who test out in the mid range. Similar to 55-80% as opposed to using all 80%++++???????? 


Always more questions than answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Deepsouth (Feb 21, 2012)

I like to look at the larva. Look for older larva in the middle and the closer to the edge you get the younger they well be. That is the best way to tell if its a good laying pattern.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Deepsouth said:


> I like to look at the larva. Look for older larva in the middle and the closer to the edge you get the younger they well be. That is the best way to tell if its a good laying pattern.


I think he is talking about, a solid brood pattern, would mean that hygienic behavior does not exist, where as a brood pattern that may not be solid, could be taken as a poor laying queen, which could be very hygienic or over hygienic, making you think bad queen.


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## Deepsouth (Feb 21, 2012)

Birdman said:


> I think he is talking about, a solid brood pattern, would mean that hygienic behavior does not exist, where as a brood pattern that may not be solid, could be taken as a poor laying queen, which could be very hygienic or over hygienic, making you think bad queen.


Yes that is exactly why I judge a queens laying pattern buy the young larva. If you judge her from the capped brood it could be misleading if they are hygienic bees. People kill queens that my have a bit of a spotty pattern thinking it is a bad queen but its actually hygienic bees doing there job. So, when judging a queens pattern, look for the larva pattern not capped brood.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Deepsouth said:


> Yes that is exactly why I judge a queens laying pattern buy the young larva.


I agree


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Deepsouth - Thanks for the info. Makes lots of sense looking at larva versus capped brood when you think about it. Once again, retrain my eye when doing inspections.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Great thread. Are there any good references or articles on interpreting brood? I know I need to learn more about it. I've posted this picture before with little resultant input that I recall...










Both frames from the same hive. The black frame is pf125 and the wooden one is regular ritecell, but clearly one frame of brood does not give a clear picture at first glance.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Deepsouth said:


> Yes that is exactly why I judge a queens laying pattern buy the young larva. If you judge her from the capped brood it could be misleading if they are hygienic bees. People kill queens that my have a bit of a spotty pattern thinking it is a bad queen but its actually hygienic bees doing there job. So, when judging a queens pattern, look for the larva pattern not capped brood.


 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What if when selecting breeder queens with the most solid pattern we are actually selecting for the least hygienic bees? 

Exactly. And we've been doing it for a century or more now...

>Could that be possible? 

I think it's obvious.

>Could we be eliminating queens from consideration as breeders because their progeny have caused the brood pattern to be spottier because they are removing mites or problem larvae. 

Of course we have been.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Spotty brood does not mean your bees are hygienic. However, indeed, if you've got perfect brood pattern, and your mite counts are off the chart, you aren't prioritizing the right things.

I'm thinking the best indicator is old larvae. This way, you can evaluate brood viability as well as the queen's laying pattern, without getting misled by hygienic behavior.


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## honeydrunkapiaries (Oct 16, 2013)

Shotgun Brood can be caused by many things. Queens that have mated with drones of the same sex alleles will produce haploid drones that will get eaten out as soon as they hatch. Diseases can cause shotgun brood. Hygienic traits can cause shotgun looking brood. It is really up to the beekeeper to investigate the cause of the shotgun brood.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

honeydrunkapiaries said:


> Shotgun Brood can be caused by many things. Queens that have mated with drones of the same sex alleles will produce haploid drones that will get eaten out as soon as they hatch. Diseases can cause shotgun brood. Hygienic traits can cause shotgun looking brood. It is really up to the beekeeper to investigate the cause of the shotgun brood.


That's quite correct, and indeed that's also something to consider, which goes to say that there's no perfect indicator, as with anything else. Checking larvae, regardless of age, cannot tell one just how much of a spotty brood can be attributed to a poor laying pattern, and how much of it is due to hive health, brood viability, and drone diploidy. All of which are imperfect indicators on their own.

The more you learn, the less you know.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Here is the pitfall to selecting for traits WE believe contribute to success rather than using success as the measurement for success. We ASSUME that an unbroken brood pattern is a good thing and breed for it and we end up with bees that lose their hygienic behavior. We ASSUME that a broken brood pattern is a good thing and we breed for it and we end up with bees that are either too inbred or too hygienic. We breed for bees the remove brood and we end up with bees with OCD who remove all the brood. What we need to do is breed from successful healthy colonies and stop looking at the details. The details are misleading. The end result is not misleading. We need to breed for the big picture, not the easily misinterpreted and misunderstood minutia.


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## honeydrunkapiaries (Oct 16, 2013)

To play the part of devils advocate. Haven't we been breeding for solid brood pattern, which would have suppressed the amount of hygienic specific recessive genes in nature? Furthermore by breeding for it aren't we in a way reestablishing the natural balance that may have contributed to bee health a hundred years go? Studies have shown that VSH can help with lowering varroa counts, and virtually eliminating brood diseases -isnt that a healthy colony?

In the big picture I agree with you, but I dont have bees that I have been breeding for 40y to get those healthy genetics -you do!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I dont have bees that I have been breeding for 40y to get those healthy genetics -you do! 

I don't either. All of mine were dead several times after Varroa showed up and before I regressed them. After that was accomplished I started gathering feral bees that are naturally selected to survive and thrive. (They swarm when they thrive, not when they fail).


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

David LaFerny - I am just starting to learn reading brood patterns and can't comment on the spotty-ness of the brood pattern. But, judging from the lack of space between the capped honey and the edge of the brood pattern, it looks like that hive is getting ready to swarm, especially the wood frame one if the frames are from different hives. Just a newbie's opinion.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Both frames are from the same nucleus hive. The picture was taken last year. What you can't tell from the picture is that the spotty one is solid brood. I think that there were misses in the first round of eggs (or larva that were removed) and the queen went back and filled in the gaps. Then when the first round emerged the fill ins - being newer - are still capped. I had a small amt of efb in my yard at the time which may have been the cause.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

I agree with Michael... I do not know enough about bees to accurately predict which traits/characteristics will impart long term benefits/resistance to the bees, so I look to and and measure the end goal. If I want to improve honey production, I measure honey production not some other trait or characteristic I rationalize will improve the bee's honey producing ability.

Joe


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I've been away traveling, without access to my photo files. Home now, so let me reply...

I don't think the whole picture is being represented in this thread. Adrian asks a great question, and I hope these photographs make my point about looking at open brood to determine how the queen is laying.

You have to look at the whole picture. You have to look at the open brood AND the sealed brood, and compare them.. So, let's have a look.

First a photo of a very good open brood pattern. By looking at this comb, I can see that the queen is laying in almost every cell. You can see where the queen began to lay just above center comb, and continued around and around, working her way to the edges of the comb. Note how almost every cell has a larva, so she's not missing. Note how larvae next to each other are almost always the same age, and they get younger as you look from center comb to edges. This to me is the perfect open brood pattern. You can say the queen is prolific, and her brood is entirely viable. None of the eggs/larvae are being removed by the bees. She's not missing any cells. There's nothing wrong with this one.










Then there's this queen. She's laying in almost every cell. She's prolific. But, it sure doesn't look like the first example, does it. The pattern is in no way cohesive as is the first. While almost every cell is occupied, the age of the brood is scattered. Older larvae, younger larvae, capped cells, eggs, open cells all scattered randomly across the comb. She's laying well, but something is wrong. Do I know what it is, No. Do I have to know? No. I would expect the sealed brood pattern of this queen to be shotgun. I would re-queen this colony.










And then there's this queen, who is obviously failing and should be replaced.










So you really can tell from the larval brood pattern how the queen is performing. But, the question was how do you judge the performance of the queen by looking at the sealed brood pattern. If the sealed brood pattern is scattered...or shotgun...and we replace her, are we evaluating an underperformer, or are we getting rid of a queen whose daughters are hygienic and reacting to a brood disease like chalkbrood or are varroa sensitive?

Well, you haven't really got a clue unless you look at both the open brood and the sealed brood.

I would expect the sealed brood pattern from photo # 1 to have a pattern like this. In fact, this is the same queen as photo #1










But, after seeing an open brood pattern that looks like photo # 1 you see a sealed brood pattern like this one, or a little better but with many empty cells scattered across the comb, you might consider the pattern to be caused by the hygienic/vsh response. Are you sure without digging further into the colony? No, but you get the idea?










So Adrian, what I'm saying is that before you can determine what to do when re-queening by pattern is look at both sealed and unsealed brood. Look for chalk mummies. Look for varroa in drone brood. Know the history of that colony. Then you can make a more informed decision.

Anyway, that's how I see it and what I do.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Michael,

How much time do you spend digging deeper when you end up with a solid larvae pattern and a spotty capped brood pattern?

On my scale, small, it is easy for me to keep track of production, as Joe mentioned. On your scale I doubt you are regularly tracking individual hive production. Do you keep track of potential breeders only?

While ultimate production is the goal, it could be easy to overlook/eliminate desirable traits if you don't do some assessment of colonies.

Tom


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

TWall said:


> Michael,
> 
> How much time do you spend digging deeper when you end up with a solid larvae pattern and a spotty capped brood pattern?
> 
> ...


I might spend a few minutes looking for chalkbrood, but not long for varroa. If I see a good larval pattern and a sealed pattern that shows too many open cells, I just want to know why. Looking might not answer the question, but I still look. 

Actually, I track the production of every colony. But that's only one field on my yard sheet. I also track...frames of bees in early spring, frames of brood at dandelion, presence of chalk...and other diseases, temper, weight of colony in September.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Adrian,

In theory colonies with high expression levels of hygienic behavior or VSH behavior could have spotty brood patterns initially, but improve once the disease/parasite is removed. Hygienic behavior is influenced by external factors such a nectar flow. Again measuring traits that we rationalize to beneficial can be a challenge primarily because they may not be truly beneficial in the whole scheme of things.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>On your scale I doubt you are regularly tracking individual hive production. Do you keep track of potential breeders only?

Actually it's not too hard. I harvest late and the hives that are strong and have a lot of stores are not hard to pick out. I see three categories: "Requeen", "Walk-away-splits in the spring" and "graft from them." In other words, "not acceptable", "good enough to keep the genetic line going" and "exceptional."


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

JSL said:


> In theory colonies with high expression levels of hygienic behavior or VSH behavior could have spotty brood patterns initially, but improve once the disease/parasite is removed. Hygienic behavior is influenced by external factors such a nectar flow. Again measuring traits that we rationalize to beneficial can be a challenge primarily because they may not be truly beneficial in the whole scheme of things.


Mightn't it be the case that an over-hygienic colony has a great double VHS queen who just happened to mate with too many VHS drones? The proportion of VHS patrilines is too great?

In this case her offspring would have a very high chance of being double VHS, her drones would be great to have around. If, and only if, raising VSH traits (further) is an objective for the whole apiary/locality.

Any thoughts?

Mike Bispham (UK)


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> Here is the pitfall to selecting for traits WE believe contribute to success rather than using success as the measurement for success. We ASSUME that an unbroken brood pattern is a good thing and breed for it and we end up with bees that lose their hygienic behavior. We ASSUME that a broken brood pattern is a good thing and we breed for it and we end up with bees that are either too inbred or too hygienic. We breed for bees the remove brood and we end up with bees with OCD who remove all the brood. What we need to do is breed from successful healthy colonies and stop looking at the details. The details are misleading. The end result is not misleading. We need to breed for the big picture, not the easily misinterpreted and misunderstood minutia.


I've always thought this approach makes a lot of sense, but how old should a colony be to get a true picture of its long-term health? You hear a lot about hives that seem good but fail after three years. Is there much truth in that, or can hives be evaluated in this rounded way sooner? 

For those of us with mostly younger colonies it is very tempting to try to select from performance - but do we run the risk of making a big mistake? How can we best balance the risks, and choose between going broad rather than (poorly-proven) narrow? 

I guess (freeze) testing all would at least rule out the non-vhs individuals.

Mike (UK)


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> Here is the pitfall to selecting for traits WE believe contribute to success rather than using success as the measurement for success. We ASSUME that an unbroken brood pattern is a good thing and breed for it and we end up with bees that lose their hygienic behavior. We ASSUME that a broken brood pattern is a good thing and we breed for it and we end up with bees that are either too inbred or too hygienic. We breed for bees the remove brood and we end up with bees with OCD who remove all the brood. What we need to do is breed from successful healthy colonies and stop looking at the details. The details are misleading. The end result is not misleading. We need to breed for the big picture, not the easily misinterpreted and misunderstood minutia.


 This is the truest thing about genetics that there is. Genetic tinkering is SO complicated, that , even if you dabble with it, you will be astounded, frustrated or just plain stymied in your goals. Having bred plants, with a particular goal in mind, I have gotten results that have no seeming relation to ANYTHING I was trying to acomplish. Keeping an open mind as to why a thing is a genetic trait is the best option. For each thing we learn, it is easy to have three new questions about it.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

As much as using only metrics for selection can prove to be a pitfall, the same can be said about just using overall performance. If you just pick your best hives, you have no idea why these hives are the best (maybe it's just your apiary disposition making all of your other hives drift into this crappy queen's colony), and no ability to predict how they would fare in other circumstances.

One needs a balanced approach.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Inordinate success should make us suspicious. It may be drifting, or it may be that the colony gambled too big raising too much brood but got lucky...


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Interesting thread.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

mike bispham said:


> I guess (freeze) testing all would at least rule out the non-vhs individuals.
> Mike (UK)


Freeze testing will not determine if your bees have VSH trait. It is a test of hygienic bees but that is not the same as VSH. VSH bees detect something given off by Varroa damaged pupae according to Jeff Harris.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

jonathan said:


> Freeze testing will not determine if your bees have VSH trait. It is a test of hygienic bees but that is not the same as VSH. *VSH bees detect something given off by Varroa damaged pupae according to Jeff Harris.*




Evidently bees can detect chemical or odor traces, so their method of VSH activity? http://www.defense.gov/specials/bees/

Also, although I cannot find the reference now, hybrid queens in a Kelly Island study were 100% 75% 0r 50% fertile egg layers and had to be brood tested to identify which were which.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

jonathan said:


> Freeze testing will not determine if your bees have VSH trait. It is a test of hygienic bees but that is not the same as VSH. VSH bees detect something given off by Varroa damaged pupae according to Jeff Harris.


Of course, thanks for reminding me Jonathan.

Isn't recapping the best assay? However, if the bees are removing and recapping we're back to clean brood... and Michael Bush's line - go by broader results...

Has anyone here found recapping/have hints on how to spot it?




julysun said:


> [/B]
> 
> Evidently bees can detect chemical or odor traces, so their method of VSH activity?
> Also, although I cannot find the reference now, hybrid queens in a Kelly Island study were 100% 75% 0r 50% fertile egg layers and had to be brood tested to identify which were which.


It will depend on whether the factors of queen has inherited one or two copies of the relevant gene, and how many drone fathers have the same. According to prof. Ratneiks at Sussex University only a few patrilines need possess the trait for the colony to have sufficient control. 

As I understand it the Sussex team are doing queen dna testing - sending samples of each new queen to be tested for the genes. That way they know which queens have two copies. Perhaps that's the test you refer to? 

Mike (UK)


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

mike bispham said:


> Has anyone here found recapping/have hints on how to spot it?


I don't see the bees recapping the pupae. I see the bees dismembering the pupae and dragging out the parts.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> > (They swarm when they thrive, not when they fail).


Thank you Michael for making that particular point specifically. Swarming may not be desirable for the beekeeper. but I consider it one of the best things to see in my bees from a health indicator. I am doing nothing to discourage swarming. But I can do something to avoid losses due to it. I want my bees healthy enough to swarm and then some. Keeping those swarms from devastating the population of my colony in the process is my business.

There has to be some give an take. if you want healthy colonies then you must let the colonies be healthy even if that means exhibiting some less than desirable behaviors.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

don't mistake a solid brood pattern as not having a VSH trait because in early spring mite load are not as high, if they don't have any other problems the brood will be solid.


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## Mr. Buzzy Bee (May 22, 2013)

I'll like the queens with solid patterns, always looking for queen


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