# Does Warre Culture ever actually work?



## David LaFerney

First of all I'm not saying that it doesn't - I'm seriously asking. 

I've looked a good bit on the Internet and I see lots of shiny new hives, and lots of first year attempts, and a few reporting heavy losses. But I have yet to see proof of concept for the system - a Warre yard managed in the Warre way that has continued to be sustainable for at least 3 years.

I'd really like to see and hear about it, because I think the concept is intriguing.


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## Oldtimer

I think part of the problem is the Warré purists believe you can tell everything you need to know by looking at the bees from outside the hive.

For example I've seen it stated on this forum by a Warré "expert" that you can tell if there is a brood in the hive, because if the bees are bringing in pollen on their legs, there must be brood. This is false, broodless hives will still collect pollen, but this type of simplistic thinking leads to hive die outs due to untreated ailments/problems of various types.

I don't think this bothers some of the Warré keepers too much though, they just re-stock the hive with a new swarm or package.

Not to say exactly the same thing doesn't happen with Langstroths though! It depends on the beekeeper. 

I don't think the leave it alone approach is so viable now a days, now that there are so many pests and diseases the bees have to contend with that the keeper should be monitoring and dealing with.

Oh, and please nobody say that the cause of all the diseases we now have is the design of the Langstroth hive!

Also a disclaimer, I'm not saying Warré keepers are all leave it alone people, I have a friend who is a very skilled beekeeper who has a Warré. However i think he may "manage" it a little more than Ēmile would have recommended.


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## David LaFerney

A few die outs wouldn't really be all that bad if the yard had enough healthy hives issuing swarms to make up for it. That would still be sustainable. I'd like to hear about it - and see pictures if possible - if anyone is doing it.


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## waynesgarden

Wouldn't a yard full of Warré hives either need to be flying off the radar as far as state bee inspectors go or else use removable frames, which makes the hive a sort of hybrid? 

If one uses removable frames, is one getting away from the Warré concepts?

Just wondering. The concept looks interesting to me also, though I'm not sure how very practical it is.

Wayne


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## David LaFerney

Maybe, but I was recently in touch with our state apiarist about this exact thing - are top bar hives legal in TN? He says that the intent of the law is that all hives must be able to be inspected, so yes top bar hives are legal - in TN. 

However, in pictures I've seen of the innards of Warre hives the combs usually do not run straight enough to be removed for inspection. Usually those pictures are from the bottom of a super that has been removed and they look very organic and free form. Pretty, but not inspectable. So, to be legal there would probably need to be enough intervention to get straight comb built at least.


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## Beethinking

I run around 12 Warre hives and have been doing so for a couple years now and I've had good success. I populated them all with either Minnesota Hygienics or Buckfasts and so far I believe I've lost 4-5 colonies. 1 absconded and the others I lost over the winters with all signs pointing to Varroa. I've done zero treatments, and use standard Warre hives (no frames, no screened bottom, etc.).

Also, using a "Bill Wood" hive tool (http://warre.biobees.com/cutter.htm) it's not terribly difficult to remove a Warre comb for inspection. I do from time to time if I notice issues and need to inspect further. 

Having read his book numerous times, I think the conception that Warre _never_ opened his hives other than to add boxes/remove boxes is unfounded.

I'll let you know how things go over this winter. So far all hives seem to be alive. 

Best,
Matt


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## David LaFerney

Is this your second, or third winter?


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## Oldtimer

Gonna say here that Cacklewack is a Warré keeper that I DO have respect for, I've read a lot of his posts he is honest and knowledgeable.

If anyone could make a Warré work it will be him.


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## Beethinking

David,

This is winter number 2 for these 12 Warres. 

Best,
Matt


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## Paraplegic Racehorse

Well, all my surviving bees are in the care of another beekeeper, but I will say this: For the two seasons I kept Warre hives in Seward, AK the Warre hives consistently outperformed the Lang hives in all aspects from comb construction to survival. All hives were treated identically with regard to opening for feeding or inspection and adding boxes. In fact, the only hives which survived the first summer and entered winter were Warre type hives.

YMMV, of course.


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## David LaFerney

Cacklewack said:


> David,
> 
> This is winter number 2 for these 12 Warres.
> 
> Best,
> Matt


Got my fingers crossed for you.


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## Beethinking

Thanks, David! I've got them lined up with a bunch of horizontal top bar hives, top bar nucleus colonies and a Langstroth hive. So far they are unhappy about the incessant rain, but all seem to be alive and kicking.

Best,
Matt


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## Simply Peter

I'm just starting out and am in the process of putting together two Langs and two Warre hives. I have two packages and two nucs ordered, the plan is to put the nucs in the Langs and the packages in the Warre's. Any suggestions for how to feed each in the spring?


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## David LaFerney

It's been over a year now, and I'm just wondering how those Warre hives are doing now? I hope they made it through last year and are looking promising for the next...


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## odfrank

In my opinion the type of box bees are in has little to do with their sustainability. I have kept bees for 42 years and the hive killer that has killed my hives the last five years is an equal opportunity killer. If it kills bees in Langstroths, tree cavities and topbars, it will kill bees in a Warre.


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## DC Bees

I have a Warre hive and this is the second winter for them.I made my own frames so they could be removed and inspected.If i don't move frames up they end up like this!
http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i418/DCBees/DSC01840.jpg


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## Zonker

Those bees ... they a mean sense of humor. I have fixed bars and my bees built this.


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## Bush_84

FYI I have a Warre that is surviving its first year. To me I think people aren't open to other ideas/strategies. I like the thought of being open to all philosophies and picking and choosing the ones I believe to be right. For example, there are people in the Warre world that super a box during the main flow. I intend on trying that this summer.


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## sqkcrk

David LaFerney said:


> A few die outs wouldn't really be all that bad if the yard had enough healthy hives issuing swarms to make up for it. That would still be sustainable. I'd like to hear about it - and see pictures if possible - if anyone is doing it.


What? Let them die because others will swarm? Are you assuming that the swarms would reoccupy the deadouts? Or that the beekeeper would notice and collect all swarms? What if there aren't deadouts to house swarms in?

And how would "let them die/repopulate w/ swarms" be sustainable? Especially if one doesn't look at the combs in the deadout to see if the colony died from AFB.

What do you, or Warre beekeepers, do w/ a deadout? Do Warre beekeepers leave it alone and let wax moth eat the comb?


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## Bush_84

In my view not inspecting a deadout would be silly. You must know what the cause of death was. I would imagine that it wouldn't be all that hard to inspect a deadout, especially if time was dedicated to comb guides. 

I would reuse the comb if the deadout was found to be disease free. You could then repopulate with a swarm, package, or split. There's no need to count on swarms to repopulate your losses. I plan on hopefully purchasing my final bees this year and keeping a steady state with splits.


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## Rick 1456

Warre has some sustainable points. 
Reduced entrance size,,,,works for me,,,,landing board,,,,,works for me,,, a quilt top that allows ventilation,,,works for me, although I modified it to suit my needs. I still use 10 frame deep langs . Mostly rite cell but moving towards foundation less in the brood chamber cause I don't care about honey anymore Just what is working for me and my goals.


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## Bush_84

IMO, it doesn't matter what size foundation you run because the bees should dictate what size comb they want. So for those of you who run foundationless, more power to you.


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## forgeblast

I was just in the garden today, i could hear my warre buzzing in there faint but buzzing. I cant wait to add boxes this spring, and then put out some more hives I am hoping to get a swarm or two for free.


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## Trawayne

Cacklewack said:


> David,
> 
> This is winter number 2 for these 12 Warres.
> 
> Best,
> Matt


Matt, 
I am a new beekeeper this year and I installed one package into a Warré. I came across this thread and was wondering if you are still having success with your Warré hives. Anything general advice or observations you have to offer would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Travis


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## Zonker

I repopulate with swarms. I'm in the right location with the right sort of job so that I'm around to catch them which isn't the situation for most folks, but the "let them die/repopulate w/ swarms" approach works for me. I even go to the next level of "let them do without treatment or sugar water/die/repopulate w/swarms" and I'm running out of room for the hives and foisting them off on friends. (though I think being in the city has more to do with their success than any purity of philosophy or great wisdom on my part) The traditional skep bee keepers killed 2/3 of all their hives every fall, so the "kill them/repopulate w/swarm" approach must have worked for hundreds of years.


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## chaindrivecharlie

Trawayne; not trying to derail your question. I've known Matt for awhile (biobees), and he is doing well with his Warre's. I too keep bee's in Warre's too, since 2006. One wet winter done 3 hives in in 2009. A year later populated 1 with a swarm. And this year a package of carnolians. And hopefully some more swarms to populate 3 more. These hives do real well, mistakes are made by beekeepers, not bee's. Warre studied bees for 58 years. It is nice not having to deal with burrcomb. The only reason I lost colonys to wet winters. Was my inability to go and check on them, to far away. Now I have them within 1 mile of my house. And I get to mentor a good Friend with his langs. Dont be afraid to try this fine hive. And the Abbe Warre's hive is meant to be adjusted. 
Godspeed Friend.
Charlie



Trawayne said:


> Matt,
> I am a new beekeeper this year and I installed one package into a Warré. I came across this thread and was wondering if you are still having success with your Warré hives. Anything general advice or observations you have to offer would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> Travis


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## Zonker

Chaindrive: could you tell us more about the wet winter problems? Thanks


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## chaindrivecharlie

Zonker said:


> Chaindrive: could you tell us more about the wet winter problems? Thanks


As I said before they were to far for regularly checking on them. I had taped my hive joints with package tape. To protect bees from cold winds. But in January, we recieved 2inches of rain. The tape had come loose at the top line and acted like a funnel. It would not of mattered if it was Warre or Langstroth or any other design. It was my fault for not going out to check their hive condition's. Water had entered into the main bee mass and wet bees will not survive 0 degree winters. That is the bad part of being in Wisconsin. The temps can sometime swing as much as 50 degrees in one day. Now no tape on seams and only use ratchet straps to hold hive bodys together. Plus I made a new Friend who needed a mentor, and had room for many more hives. And His place is only a mile from my house in the city. I have been keeping bees on and off since 1967. And have help to manage 450 hives in Florida. My Uncle J.D. seen the Fun I had and went into business. Warre had watched bees and experimented with them enough. That He new what would work, and worked simply. For almost no layout of cash, and only your time and some energy. You can have beehives that are easy to lift and require little attention. I dont do this for a living, I do it for the bees. I want to see them make it in this new age of bee destruction.


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