# Treatment vs Treatmentfree losses from BIP survey 2014-15



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A bit different picture than the "anyone who doesn't poison the mites will lose their bees" litany isn't it...


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

That is an unacceptable level of loss in my opinion. Under 20% is reasonable, under 10% is what I expect. I've lost 2 colonies out of 14 so far this winter. One of them died. SquarePeg got the other.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Can you give the whole link? The one you linked was only one two pages of results. Was the query sent to all beekeepers and in which way? Who is behind this survey?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

heaflaw said:


> Because I want to learn from the discussion(argument):
> 
> https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/ManagementPhilosphy-RF.pdf
> 
> ...



And where does it report the cause for the losses? I think, once again, that you are interpreting the results and concluding that all the losses, whether tf or not, were lost due to varroa.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

https://beeinformed.org/

Participation is online. Nothing is sent in the mail.

Leading US apiculturists are involved.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Okay, I see graphs tracking numbers lost, but I'm not seeing where the BIP survey tracks reason for colony loss. Point me in the right direction.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

No, you are correct. No tracking for the reason. Maybe because it's so difficult for beekeepers to know the reason or reasons for loss.

I posted the full site link because Jhlani wanted it.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

We can spin and twist the results in every way possible in an effort to support our opinions but when I read the comments by Dennis vanEngelsdorp about the results of the survey....I figure, as a principle in the study he'd have a solid understanding of the results.

*'If there is one thing beekeepers can do to help with this problem, it is to treat their bees for Varroa mites', said vanEngelsdorp. 'If all beekeepers were to aggressively control mites, we would have many fewer losses.'
*
http://entomologytoday.org/2014/05/...sts-recommend-treating-bees-for-varroa-mites/


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Not too much ambiguity here.

*'Every beekeeper needs to have an aggressive Varroa management plan' van Engelsdorp said. 'Unfortunately, many small-scale beekeepers are not treating their bees, and are losing many colonies. And those colonies are potential sources of infection for other hives.'*


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Hey, if nothing else, these reports tell us that a lot of beekeepers actually do track their losses.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Good thing that those treating are treating (successfully) for swarming, otherwise those swarms would be potential sources of infection for other hives.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Blaise Pascal was a mathematician, scholar, and philosopher who lived 350 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaise_Pascal

One thing we could all benefit from is a finer sense of respect for others who walk a path on this earth.

I'm a pessimist regarding especially charts and graphs. The graph heaflaw linked lacks much of the detail needed to draw valid conclusions. However, from a mathematical point of view, it shows one thing in spades which I don't see anyone commenting about. The difference in winter losses between the 4 groups has very low statistical significance. In other words, the hardest bitten treat em with everything but the kitchen sink beekeeper is barely edging out the guy who does nothing. How do you get past this lack of significance?


Here is another chart worth looking at because it demonstrates skewed inputs. Look it over and see if you can spot the problem. https://beeinformed.org/results/colony-loss-2014-2015-preliminary-results/


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

what is there to argue about? They are just numbers, who knows how accurate they are? The site specifically says " The results cannot
be considered conclusive, causative, protective, or attest to product efficacy or lack of efficacy."


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> That is an unacceptable level of loss in my opinion. Under 20% is reasonable, under 10% is what I expect. I've lost 2 colonies out of 14 so far this winter. One of them died. SquarePeg got the other.


I absolutely agree.No way I would be willing to accept 40+ percent loss. My loss this year has been two from 32 and that's about what I expect. Now,that said,mine are all in two yards that are close and easily watched for problems.I suppose if I had widely scattered outyards my losses would be a little higher.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

I took This directly from the page. "Beekeepers that chose to only use natural products in their operations lost more overwintering colonies than those who preferred to use natural products, or were willing to use anything in their colonies." 

Does this make any sense to anyone what difference does it make weather you "Chose" or "Preferred natural Products" ? 
A Mistake? How many others?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Tenbears said:


> I took This directly from the page. "Beekeepers that chose to only use natural products in their operations lost more overwintering colonies than those who preferred to use natural products, or were willing to use anything in their colonies."
> 
> Does this make any sense to anyone what difference does it make weather you "Chose" or "Preferred natural Products" ?
> A Mistake? How many others?



I don't know, but I know I don't want to put any " other" in my hive LOL


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Tenbears said:


> I took This directly from the page. "Beekeepers that chose to only use natural products in their operations lost more overwintering colonies than those who preferred to use natural products, or were willing to use anything in their colonies."
> 
> Does this make any sense to anyone what difference does it make weather you "Chose" or "Preferred natural Products" ?
> A Mistake? How many others?


I don't read that as a "mistake", but as a delineation of three distinct types of beekeepers:

1) Those who will ONLY use "natural" products;

2) Those who PREFER to use "natural" products, but will use harsher methods if they believe the circumstances call for it;

and

3) Those who don't care whether the product is "natural" or not, so long as it works.


I would be a #2, I would prefer to be "natural"/"organic" but I will go further if I think it is necessary.


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