# Keeping Africanized Bees or not



## aley1511 (Apr 11, 2014)

I live in Arizona and africanized bees are an issue. My question is if it is a good idea to keep africanized bees or bees suspected of being africanized. I have caught swarms that are sometimes mean but still manageable. None of my hives that I suspect are africanized attack unless provoked (like when I inspect them). I have read numerous articles that say all hives suspected of africanization should be killed or requeened. If the bees are manageable is this really necessary?


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## ForrestB (May 26, 2013)

There is an interesting Austrian documentary called "More than Honey" and one of the people featured is a beekeeper from AZ named Fred Terry who keeps Africanized bees. I don't know how you could contact him, but if you Google him maybe you can find out more. He is pretty convinced they present many advantages. 

Cheers


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I will not keep AHB. In my first year I had really bad experiences in keeping them. I got stung too many times on so many different
spots. When the hive grow they will become more aggressive. On a small scale they are still manageable, just like you said. Why would you want to keep them anyways. They are already spreading up north. It is better to keep the gentle bees than the aggressive ones. And there are the gentle ones you can find. People in Africa only tolerate them because they have no choice. But here you have a choice. After you keep the gentle ones for a season or 2 you will never want to go back. Don't spread the aggressive genetic, o.k.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would not keep mean bees, Africanized or not. I would keep nice bees without concern about their ancestry...


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

There are several varieties of them. They are not all they same. Depends upon where you are. Too much variation to generalize.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

What's the point of keeping mean bees when nice bees are so readily available?


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Yes, Please keep them there!


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Well, in my area not many people can afford to keep buying the nice ones so they keep whatever they can get.


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## ForrestB (May 26, 2013)

Paul McCarty said:


> Well, in my area not many people can afford to keep buying the nice ones so they keep whatever they can get.


Yes, this, and the fact that they are absolutely thriving in the wild with no treatments. There is no debate about that. They are very very hardy and (according to Fred Terry), they are good honey producers as well.


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## aley1511 (Apr 11, 2014)

Yes, requeening can get expensive. I am not stupid and would definitely requeen a hive that was too aggressive but if they are manageable and not stinging anybody then there's nothing to fuss about. I am also asking because they are my best producers by far and would hate to replace their queen with an inferior one.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have had that very mental argument before. Do I requeen or not. Can I tolerate a fussy bees if they make a large honey crop. I had a hive a few years back that had very obvious African traits, but were located well away from people. I chose to let them keep making me honey. They filled three supers from a very mediocre area, and worked out well. I just didn't go digging around in the brood very much. They really didn't care if you messed around with the honey stores. They eventually tried to supercede and lost their queen. Very much a learning experience for me and how to handle touchy bees.

My worst attack to date has been from regular old Italians. Go figure.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

How about keeping both the gentle and productive hives? A few website I visited said they are keeping and selecting their
queens just for this purpose as well as others like mite and disease resistant. I believe them do exist so continue to find them.
So far my Italians are productive and gentle. I will only keep the gentle bees hoping to produce drones that are gentle within my
area.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Keeping Africanized bees in suburban Phoenix is selfish idiocy. Sure they are "cheap". The risk (and recorded deaths) from AHB often come from the elderly who are unable to escape an unprovoked attack. The elderly are all over suburban Phoenix. This current fascination with keeping aggressive bees is going to end poorly, and set back back-yard beekeeping by amateurs for a generation.


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## aley1511 (Apr 11, 2014)

Perhaps you didn't read this whole thread. I created this post to generate a discussion on keeping africanized bees. Not due to a "fascination" but because africanized bees are a widespread occurrence here. Also, not all africanized bees are as aggressive as their reputation suggests. Some africanized bees are in fact, as gentle as some of European strains while some of the Europeans can be worse than the Africans. I also stated that my bees were not overly aggressive as I have read other posts here where people can't even step out of their houses to inspect their hives. Moreover, I also said if that were the case I would requeen immediately. Keeping aggressive bees of that sort is foolish and a lawsuit waiting to happen in a "suburban" area. However, not everyone has the option of requeening yearly and if the africanized bees are maneagable and not hurting anybody why not learn to cope with them instead of trying to fight them? Your condescending comments added nothing to this discussion.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> I would not keep mean bees, Africanized or not. I would keep nice bees without concern about their ancestry...


Mr Bush and I agree on almost nothing but here we are in complete agreement. The issue is the behavior, not the pedigree. Bee are hybridized in the USA and south to the extent that there is almost no way to accurately identify these hybrids as belonging to either European or African descent. They may be a mixture, but it is foolish to condemn bees on the basis of DNA or the length of their wings. Also, it is foolish to keep bees that fly off the handle at the least provocation. The original bees of the USA were Apis mellifera mellifera and these bees were not always well behaved, hence they were generally replaced with Italian, Carniolan, and Caucasian types. Now, the bees of the USA are a mixture of these, just as the people of the USA are a mixture of races, and the racial characteristics of an individual are frequently unidentifiable. Same thing with bees and people: they should _not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character._


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

peterloringborst said:


> Mr Bush and I agree on almost nothing but here we are in complete agreement. The issue is the behavior, not the pedigree. Bee are hybridized in the USA and south to the extent that there is almost no way to accurately identify these hybrids as belonging to either European or African descent. Now, the bees of the USA are a mixture of these, just as the people of the USA are a mixture of races, and the racial characteristics of an individual are frequently unidentifiable. Same thing with bees and people: they should _not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character._


I couldn't agree more Peter. Love those multi colored mutts. One observation, though, when working yards of even 30 to 40 hives is how difficult it is to ID an aggressive hive as single mean hive tends to incite its neighbors. I have, more than once, tentatively marked a hive that I guessed was the culprit, only to find the next time through its personality had totally changed and there were no mean bees to be found in the entire yard. Conditions, conditions, conditions.....


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have seen nobody here advocating keeping aggressive bees. None of my bees are any worse that regular bees - they may be fussy, but the mean ones don't last long.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> I have seen nobody here advocating keeping aggressive bees.


OK, I will. I think there is good evidence that Africanized are much healthier than European bees. If you have out of the way spots, the more aggressive tendencies are really not that big of a deal. Having bees that take care of themselves is very valuable.

It is only when they are around innocent people that one has to be vigilant in keeping docile bees. The public needs to be protected from bees, they cannot be expected to tolerate preventable stinging events, even if beekeepers think it's no big deal.

In Brazil and most of South America, the beekeepers prefer the African bees because they are much healthier, more viable, and also tend to protect themselves better from predators. European bees do not do well in the tropics. 

Whether Africanized bees can survive cold winters has yet to be worked out. Probably depends on the mixture, there may be hybrids that can do it, also depending on the severity of the winter. This year my hybrids all failed but we had record breaking cold temps.

P


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## brettj777 (Feb 27, 2013)

Africanized bees are a scourge. No one in countries that have them enjoys beekeeping. You need full suits for anything. Why are we calmly discussing aiding and abetting an invasive species that will ERADICATE native populations.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Why are we calmly discussing?


Because discussing calmly is preferable to shouting and getting riled up. There is plenty to discuss, too.



> African bees, Apis mellifera scutellata, are normal bees in their native areas of Africa and are worked very
> satisfactorily and successfully by beekeepers. The Africanised bees of the Americas are basically
> descendants of African bees and they carry many of the same, often outstanding, properties of their
> ancestors. Some of these properties, such as resistence to diseases, parasites, and predators likely will be
> ...


From:
Justin O. SCHMIDT (2001) AFRICANISED BEES HAVE BEEN GOOD FOR PHEROMONE
RESEARCH AND PRACTICAL BEEKEEPING


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## aley1511 (Apr 11, 2014)

I agree. African bees have many traits that make them better suited to survive in beekeepers hives and the wild. Only the strong survive and it seems they are here to stay. The main drawback to them is their aggressiveness, but like most domesticated animals it is the job of the keeper to breed for gentleness and eventually it may be that the so called africanized bees are known as gentle, vigorous, pest/disease resistant, and excellent honey producing breed. Instead of the current reputation they seem to have among beekeepers and the general population alike.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

They are definitely survivors. Just don't keep the mean ones.


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## 1-800miner (Sep 7, 2011)

I have a part time neighbor that also spend much of each year in Mexico and Alaska.
He leaves this house unlocked while gone. His logic is that thieves won't destroy the house.
It is remote enough that it can't be watched very well.

I have a hive that is easily agitated. When he leaves for the season I set that hive on his front door steps.
I have seen several tracks of people nosing around but they make a u-turn at the gate. 

Then again ,he came home early one year. I got a call at midnight that he wanted in his house.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

If we consider that, like humans, all honey bees originated in Africa, then, in that sense, they, of course, all originated in Africa and are AHB's.

If we go back as far as the origins of _Apis mellifera_, then Africanization is moot. However, I'm certain that this thread and others like it, are certainly discussing the more recent/modern day influx of South African honey bee genetics into our more recently (geological timeline) speciated "European honey bee" subspecies.

I do consider that, in either scenario, it is likely that many of us are, indeed, keeping AHB's without even realizing it. Sometimes I have considered having bees tested, but my more prevailing consideration is to simply use animal husbandry to select and breed for characteristics that I find desirable, and eliminate colonies (queens) that exhibit undesirable characteristics. For me, nervous/runny behavior is one of the most undesirable traits that I work hard to eliminate and keep out of my bees. It is even more annoying, to me, than a modicum of overly defensiveness.

In working to reduce/eliminate undesirable traits in my own bees, I do not much care where those undesirable genetics originated, either Africa or Europe, even anywhere else on the earth. I simply endeavor to eliminate them.


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## brettj777 (Feb 27, 2013)

Studying something in a controlled setting is way different than a bunch of beeks deciding to propagate an invasive strain of honey bees that are hybrids lost in a study in the first place.

Its irresponsibility in the highest order. But without testing every hive multiple times per year its not possible to tell by anything other than behavior. This isnt just about you or a few hives. You are making decisions that would thousands of people in each area where AFB is allowed to spread.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

brettj777,

Actually, beekeepers or queen breeders don't need to intentionally breed/maintain/propagate AHB and distribute them - the nature of AHB ensures that they do that quite well without any assistance from us.

I think the sentiment that is often expressed is a desire to work with the AHB, since working against them seems to be an exercise in futility.

It may be difficult and even to take a very long time to accomplish the task of breeding out most of the undesirable traits that AHB's add to the mix, and keep most of the desirable ones, but humans have certainly accomplished more, with less. And these days we have the expediency of I.I. to facilitate the process.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

AHB is definitely spread far wider than most realize. They are still being spread by the migratory industry. This will not stop or change any time soon. At this point they are pretty much all hybrid mutts from differing regions. As time goes by, they are more and more simply just very wild bees.


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## CtyAcres (Apr 8, 2012)

Paul- I agree that AHB strain is widely spread. The comm. boys are pulling plenty of it out of Texas!
But you are right, they are survivors! Have you tried bringing in a calmer line of bees to offset that, or
do you just weed out the nasties?


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

A lot of my bees were originally from Northern NM queens or from the local mountains, but I have some from removals that are not. I weed out the nasty ones. Most are not that nasty, annoying, but not nasty. You just don't mess with them much when there isn't a flow on.

I used to DNA test them, but that service is no longer provided here. As a double blind, I sent in samples from ALL of my hives, even the domestic queens. It was surprising which ones came back as African. Some of them I paid good money for.


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## The Redneck Hippie (Mar 29, 2014)

I haven't had bees yet, and my last experience with them was when my father kept them pre-AHB days. So, as an almost-newbie, I decided against catching a swarm to start my beeyard because of the chance of getting aggressive bees, AHB or not. I think it'd be much better for me to get back in the swing of things and learn the lessons I didn't learn when Daddy was alive with more gentle bees.

But I did buy a full-strength colony from BeeWeaver even though I've heard from many people that they'll likely have AHB genetics. I don't think AHB automatically equals aggressive, and BeeWeaver will send another queen if the ones I get are that way. 

When I bought my first Longhorn cattle, everyone told me they were mean and the meat was tough so why keep them anyway? Ten-plus years later and I'm still here, not gored to death or trampled, and likely healthier from eating all that leaner meat. I'm seeing lots more of them pop up in people's pastures now, especially the last couple years, after they all saw how well they're surviving the drought we're in. You just have to be a little more on your toes when working them, and pay a little more attention when cooking the meat. I wouldn't advocate the more rangey family lines for someone who's never kept cattle before so doesn't have cow sense, but for someone with some experience? You bet! They'll thank me later, after saving all those vet bills and all that time not spent immunizing, worming often, treating for pinkeye, or pulling calves. 

I'm thinking AHBs are much the same - bred by Mother Nature who, when she sees a weakness, points and says, "You! Out of the gene pool! And take your kids with you!" In the years to come, we'll breed the meanness out of them like we did with Longhorns, and will likely end up with much better bees that don't need as many treatments or as much care. 



brettj777 said:


> Africanized bees are a scourge. No one in countries that have them enjoys beekeeping. You need full suits for anything.


I'm old enough to remember when red imported fire ants were moving into the area. Everyone went nuts with the fear mongering. The news was full of reports that they would leave nothing in their wake but calf skeletons and dead children. The truth is they are aggressive little buggers, more so than other ants, and they have displaced some natives (I sure miss horny toads and harvester ants), but children are safe (they learn quick) and the beef industry is fine. 

I haven't even lost a chick to them, as in a baby chicken, something much smaller than a calf. They don't go marauding around with their army selves, looking for something to attack and kill. They attack people who get into their mounds or happen to be nearby (a couple feet away) and stand still long enough for a bunch of them to crawl up their leg. They're sneaky, too - don't bite until a few hundred of their sistren are on board, then all at once they get you. But few if any people die from it, and those who do either are unlucky enough to be in quite weak health or they have an allergy that even a more docile ant would have set off. 

The hoopla about AHBs reminds me of the same thing. Terror and horror and sure death is a-comin'! Yet they are here, have been for almost twenty years, and every few years you'll hear of some unfortunate soul getting attacked after mowing his lawn a little too close to a hive. I've only heard about a handful of people dying, and then it was usually elderly people or those with a bee allergy. 



> Why are we calmly discussing aiding and abetting an invasive species that will ERADICATE native populations.


 Honeybees aren't native here. And so far, I don't think they're eradicating the naturalized EHBs. 



> Its irresponsibility in the highest order. ... You are making decisions that would thousands of people in each area where AFB is allowed to spread.


 There's no "allowing" about it. We can't stop them, so the best idea is to learn how to deal with them. 



1-800miner said:


> I have a part time neighbor that also spend much of each year in Mexico and Alaska.
> He leaves this house unlocked while gone. ... When he leaves for the season I set that hive on his front door steps.
> I have seen several tracks of people nosing around but they make a u-turn at the gate.


:lpf: :applause: I'm SO remembering that for when I get to go on vacation! :lpf:


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

The ******* Hippie said:


> I'm old enough to remember when red imported fire ants were moving into the area. Everyone went nuts with the fear mongering. The news was full of reports that they would leave nothing in their wake but calf skeletons and dead children. The truth is they are aggressive little buggers, more so than other ants, and they have displaced some natives (I sure miss horny toads and harvester ants), but children are safe (they learn quick) and the beef industry is fine.
> 
> I haven't even lost a chick to them, as in a baby chicken, something much smaller than a calf. They don't go marauding around with their army selves, looking for something to attack and kill. They attack people who get into their mounds or happen to be nearby (a couple feet away) and stand still long enough for a bunch of them to crawl up their leg. They're sneaky, too - don't bite until a few hundred of their sistren are on board, then all at once they get you. But few if any people die from it, and those who do either are unlucky enough to be in quite weak health or they have an allergy that even a more docile ant would have set off.
> 
> The hoopla about AHBs reminds me of the same thing. :


Hmmm, the red imported fire ants have caused a mess of problems. Maybe not the way the press said, but there is a long line of critters they impacted. Maybe the AHBs are not as bad as originally stated, but I do know some folks that mess with bees that claim the aggression levels are more than what they had going back 30 years. The number of folks that have been attacked by large swarms is much higher than before they AHBs arrived. I know several near the Texas border that have been attacked.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

The comparison with longhorns is pretty accurate for our temperate hybrids. Down south of the border they are a whole other critter. Basically they are simply ultra-feral bees. Survival of the fittest in the extreme.


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## The Redneck Hippie (Mar 29, 2014)

marshmasterpat said:


> Hmmm, the red imported fire ants have caused a mess of problems. Maybe not the way the press said, but there is a long line of critters they impacted. Maybe the AHBs are not as bad as originally stated, but I do know some folks that mess with bees that claim the aggression levels are more than what they had going back 30 years. The number of folks that have been attacked by large swarms is much higher than before they AHBs arrived. I know several near the Texas border that have been attacked.


 Yep. They've caused more than a few problems and can be quite aggressive, both fire ants and AHBs. I don't think either is a laughing matter, but they don't warrant the level of fear and loathing Brettj777 was espousing. (Speaking of that: Respectfully, would you take out the smiley from the quote of mine you posted? Don't know if that was a technical glitch or what, but it doesn't reflect accurately what I said or how I feel about it. Using a hive of bees in lieu of an alarm system? Now THAT'S funny! AHBs? Not so much.) 



Paul McCarty said:


> The comparison with longhorns is pretty accurate for our temperate hybrids. Down south of the border they are a whole other critter. Basically they are simply ultra-feral bees. Survival of the fittest in the extreme.


They're amazing to watch. The survival tactics they've developed are incredible. I had read they (Longhorns) would circle the wagons around their calves when faced with a threat, and got to see that behavior when walking out in the pasture with my dogs to take a picture of the first calf. As I walked, I was looking down at my camera, setting settings, and noticed my dog starting to look nervous, so I looked up myself only to see a line of Longhorns facing us, heads down, little black beetle eyes staring, horns lined up close like a pike pole fence.  I slowly backed away and decided taking pictures from the truck window was the better plan. :thumbsup:

I don't have as many Longhorns any more. I miss them. I'm looking forward to seeing this same evidence of Mother Nature's hand in things in my bees. Gotta' respect Ma Nature or you'll get spanked. If you do respect her, it's easier.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

A lot of the ferals in my area have quite a bit of African in them. I don't mind them, and most are not really aggressive. Touchy, yes, but aggressive, not usually. You just don't go breathing on them, or digging around in the broodnest when there's no flow. Some days if they are not very tolerant, you just have close them up and try again later. Just wild critters. 

I have never messed with the full strength ones from south of the border, so I cannot speak for them. The ones we have in my state are also different than the ones found in Texas. It is suspected they have more Iberica or Intermissa in their background instead of strictly Brazilian as found in Texas. I feel they are a different critter, but it hasn't been totally verified yet. They are still African though, and would be classed as a type of AHB hybrid. They are definitely survivors. Can't hardly kill them, and they seem to thrive on neglect.

All being said, they can be quite variable, and I normally requeen with one of my own queens after I get them hived.

FYI - much of the current fear associated with the AHB is because of the old totalitarian Brazilian government's efforts to discredit Dr. Kerr after he spoke out on civil rights issues.


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## The Redneck Hippie (Mar 29, 2014)

*Newbie feverishly taking notes: "No breathing when working the bees."*  Seriously though, those tips are good to know. 

Looks like I have a lot more reading to do. I didn't realize there were so many subspecies. I'd thought they were all the same subspecies, descended from the ones accidentally released in Brazil way back when. So the others, are they different African subspecies that hitched rides from other places? Or just different strains that have differentiated over the last decades from those original escapees? 



> They are definitely survivors. Can't hardly kill them, and they seem to thrive on neglect.


 Sounds more and more like my Longhorns. They neither needed nor wanted much intervention. I like that. 



> FYI - much of the current fear associated with the AHB is because of the old totalitarian Brazilian government's efforts to discredit Dr. Kerr after he spoke out on civil rights issues.


 Figures. Yep, got more reading to do to find those sources I don't have to take with a grain of salt. For now, I thought I'd trust people with generations of beekeeping and breeding behind them, hence why I bought from who I bought from. Eventually, though, I'd like to know for myself.


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## BeeGurl (Aug 9, 2013)

It depends on what you can tolerate as a beekeeper. Clearly it is an emotional topic and people are very afraid of Africanized bees and not without good reason. I had a mean hive of grumpy Italians. They were so bad even with a good smoking that I started wearing a full bee suit. This hive didn't survive the NC winter so I don't have to deal with them now, but I was thinking about requeening.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

African "Africanized" bees have been here a very long time. There have been at least 15 different recorded introductions of bees from Africa. The Spanish brought over A.M. Iberiensis, and A.M. Intermissa back in the 1500's - at least to my region. There have been other recorded introductions too, one of which occurred back in the 1960's when our own US Government shipped A.M. Adonsai all across our nation to improve pollination practices. Another was the Egyptian A.M. Lamarckii imported in the 1800's. All of these bees have African origins, and test as AHB in DNA tests. The bees the Brazilian government shipped all over South America and then let escape were basically pure strain A.M. Scutellata. As they progressed north they absorbed the genetics of everything they encountered, so what we ended up with up here are a sort of wild mutt bee with some African traits. Very interesting to me. 

At this point, it is very hard to tell what you actually have as most of the feral bees have a little of everything in them, including African, and there are commercial outfits who ship them around the country. The traits they express genetically are based upon the environment they live in since they have absorbed the entire DNA sequence from every other race, so as they progress North, they are slowly changing to more of a North American adapted bee, similar to the old German Black Bee. At this point, many people would be surprised at what they have in their hive if everyone all performed a genetic test all at once, nationwide.

Like I said, they are very interesting to me.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I would also like to add that I think they will play a key role in the survival of the species, with climate change, industrial agriculture, and everything else giving the bees problems.


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

Hello I keep bees in the east valley also! Mesa Gilbert chandler etc? I take great pains to keep gentle bees as my hives are all in very close proximity to homes/ walking paths etc. I. Just last week I was pulling honey in a yard of about 40 hives.all big strong hives in a citrus location. Two guys pull up in a pick up less than 50 feet away and say wow your working bees that's cool! I told these boneheads that the bees were riled up and please get in their truck and leave the area. They said oh no don't worry bees are natural. Thank goodness my bees were very gentle and these goof balls never go stung once. IMHO it is very irresponsible of people to keep aggressive / defensive bees pin close proximity to people. I have done several removals over the years where for one reason or another the original Beek moved or died and the bees were allowed to just make there own queen. But due to my insurance I am no longer able to to do removals.I have a couple of friends who asked to put bees on my citrus locations this spring, I was unable to let them do so because they have some gentle bees and some nasty ones. The aggressive bees are not such a big deal if you out pin the sticks but in town is another thing all together. Good luck with your bees GB









aley1511 said:


> I live in Arizona and africanized bees are an issue. My question is if it is a good idea to keep africanized bees or bees suspected of being africanized. I have caught swarms that are sometimes mean but still manageable. None of my hives that I suspect are africanized attack unless provoked (like when I inspect them). I have read numerous articles that say all hives suspected of africanization should be killed or requeened. If the bees are manageable is this really necessary?


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I would keep them and re-queen the really aggressive colonies and definitely would not keep them in an urban environment.



Paul McCarty said:


> I would also like to add that I think they will play a key role in the survival of the species, with climate change, industrial agriculture, and everything else giving the bees problems.


I feel the same way :thumbsup:


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

brettj777 said:


> ERADICATE native populations.


 Just what natives are being eradicated? The honey bee is not native to the US. Bees with partial African genetics are advertised for sale in the bee journals regularly - At least one distributor (BeeWeaver) replaces any queens that are mean. It is the objectionable behavior which should not be tolerated.


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## The Redneck Hippie (Mar 29, 2014)

Interesting. Thanks for that info, Paul. Gives me a place to start my research for reading material.



Paul McCarty said:


> There have been at least 15 different recorded introductions of bees from Africa. The Spanish brought over A.M. Iberiensis, and A.M. Intermissa back in the 1500's - at least to my region. ... Like I said, they are very interesting to me.


They're sounding more and more like Longhorns. Same thing - original cattle brought from Spain (I wonder if they were on the same boat as the bees) mixed over the years with other breeds of cattle that escaped settlements or were let loose when some western settlers went back east. They developed a bad reputation because they carried diseases that they were immune or resistant to, but other breeds were not, so were banned from many markets and areas (AHB & varroa ringing a bell here). Another contributing factor to their negative reputation was that ranchers preferred English breeds that gained weight faster, no matter that they took a LOT more work and inputs to keep them alive and healthy. Sounds familiar-er and familiar-er.

I found the Longhorns easier to deal with actually. They took care of themselves with me stepping in to give them a hand way less than half as often as I would have with standard beef breeds. They don't gain weight as fast as others, so you just use a beef breed bull on the cows for faster-gaining calves. Or not - even with full-blood LH calves, the $$ and time pencils out to a big savings in both in the end. Yeah, every now and again one would get a little mean, so I just sent them to freezer camp (most of my dinners these past ten years were named *expletive* or *other expletive*.  ).


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## pirogue (Apr 26, 2014)

Some of the people who have been killed by AHB were young and athletic, not only "elderly". Sounds like some are about as misinformed of AHB, as those who believe there is a big fence between AZ and Mexico, because that is what the politicians portray.


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## flyingbrass (Jul 2, 2011)

Africanized bees swarm like crazy, not a trait that a beekeeper would ever wish for, another reason!


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Yes, some bees, from various origins, have a higher propensity for swarming. Swarminess, and other undesirable traits, are regularly selected against, when bees are bred. Of course, this doesn't mean that all undesirable traits are completely eliminated in our breeding attempts. After all, we're not genetically engineering our own honey bees by redesigning their DNA from scratch - though I would expect that someday we might.

In the meanwhile, swarminess is evident in many different groups of honey bees, not just in those originating from South Africa. Yes, AHB are known to often exhibit a strong propensity to swarm, but also to initiate many usurpation swarms, too. So, until we can design and build our own honey bee, from scratch, building our own honey bee DNA, we'll just have to keep breeding for our ideal honey bee. Apparently none have been perfected, yet.

As G B said, it is not a good plan to maintain overly defensive hives, especially where people will regularly encounter them - AHB or not.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Some people spend way too much time arguing semantics - keeping mean bees is irresponsible. Full stop.

Even if a hive of mean bees is kept in a remote place, that hive will still swarm and spread its mean genetics. Even if mean genetics are being spread from other sources, it is irresponsible to accelerate the process by intentionally keeping means bees. Even if the mean bees have other good traits, the trade-off of a significantly increased chance of innocent people being serioulsy hurt is not worth it.

JMHO


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## aley1511 (Apr 11, 2014)

We've had some good responses to this topic. Good points and interesting views. It seems that the majority agree that keeping aggressive bees, regardless of ancestry, is dangerous and not good. AHB are survivors and some are docile while others can be overly aggressive, but they all contribute strong genetics to the feral gene pool. Since the issue seems to be that excessive aggressiveness is undesirable, when does the beekeeper deem a hive too aggressive? What criteria do most of the beekeepers here use to decide if a hive should be requeened?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

My test is simple - if it is no fun to work them due to what I'll call excessive aggressiveness, then they are requeened. I do make some allowances - they only get worked if I have something to accomplish and I do wear a jacket and gloves when I work them. Thus far the bees I received from BeeWeaver have been manageable. I had one nasty colony of European ancestry that I ended splitting up into nucs so that I could find the queen. A productive and strong colony but I don't want bees that try to follow me into my house!


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I don't like runny bees, or bees that will chase your hand if you slowly wave it across the top of the frames, or bees that patrol the yard to find likely targets. These all get new queens. The worst Hive I had so far was regular old Italians, that attacked me en masse one day. They got a new queen too, and they weren't AHB - that queen was purchased.

Being stung is uncommon with my current bees. I like to keep it that way. I can tolerate some head butting, but stinging is something else.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>or bees that patrol the yard to find likely targets.

These are the difficult ones to identify though...


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## The Redneck Hippie (Mar 29, 2014)

pirogue said:


> Some of the people who have been killed by AHB were young and athletic, not only "elderly". Sounds like some are about as misinformed of AHB, as those who believe there is a big fence between AZ and Mexico, because that is what the politicians portray.


I don't doubt there are other people than just elderly who've died from AHB attacks. That's why I didn't say "only elderly". (And neither did the only other person I saw who used the term elderly.) I said:


> I've only heard about a handful of people dying, and then it was *usually* elderly people or those with a bee allergy.


 I believe the other person also said "usually". 

Living in AHB country, I think it wise to read about AHB deaths so I can make sure not to do what those people did, but when I tried to find news reports of young and athletic people dying of AHB attacks, I couldn't find any. Would you mind pointing me to your source(s)?


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## The Redneck Hippie (Mar 29, 2014)

aley1511 said:


> We've had some good responses to this topic. Good points and interesting views. It seems that the majority agree that keeping aggressive bees, regardless of ancestry, is dangerous and not good. AHB are survivors and some are docile while others can be overly aggressive, but they all contribute strong genetics to the feral gene pool. Since the issue seems to be that excessive aggressiveness is undesirable, when does the beekeeper deem a hive too aggressive? What criteria do most of the beekeepers here use to decide if a hive should be requeened?


 I'm glad you asked this. I'll be reading the rest of the replies and taking notes. So far, I'm really liking this thought:


> My test is simple - if it is no fun to work them due to what I'll call excessive aggressiveness, then they are requeened.


 Goes right along with what I was thinking I'd do.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have also noticed a lot of strong opinions on these critters from people who don't actually live or work directly with them. There are worse things out there in the bee world to worry about in my opinion. Just re-queen them if they are runny, mean, or swarmy. The end.


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## dingo983 (Feb 10, 2011)

I am in AZ and had an (AHB?) aggressive hive issue over the weekend. I got the hive from a hay barn. When I removed it, they were so docile I could have done it with no suit. Normally I could open the hive and have one to three bees headbutt me throughout the inspection. To me this is no big deal. This weekend the displayed much more aggressive behavior where, like others said, it's not fun dealing with them. I just split the hive in half, scrape the drone comb to limit the spread of their genetics and ordered new queens. Most are not intentionally keeping AHB, it is just unavoidable in the south. So like others said address the behavior, not the bee is the game I play


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Yep, just a fact of life in the Southwest. Unless you have very deep pockets, you cannot get enough queens to requeen them and keep them out.


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## The Redneck Hippie (Mar 29, 2014)

Judging from your experiences with DNA testing, Paul - finding AHB genes in even purchased queens (who weren't supposed to have them, yes?) - makes me think there just may be a lot of people with strong opinions against AHB who are already keeping them, albeit unknowingly. So we're likely all in agreement, though also maybe unknowingly - judge the behavior, not the breed, indeed.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Very true. They are everywhere - and if what I suspect is true about them expressing AMM type traits through their nuclear DNA, then they are literally nationwide and we simply do not recognize them. It would explain the resurgence of dark feral bees in many areas.

On a side note, I have had hives that tested as AHB that you could not tell from their neighbors who did not. Worry about the traits and behavior. That should be our prime concern.


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