# Spontaneous Combustion



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource, Lucky Mac!

Despite the coloring, I don't think that comb is scorched. Brood comb, in particular, darkens with use. Some of it is the residual cocoons of previous brood, and some is just general dirt tracked around. Its also possible that some of that is mold. Scorching would likely have deformed some of the comb due to melting wax.


May I suggest that some of the activity you saw earlier could have been 'robbers' from elsewhere harvesting some of the stores from that hive.

The honey should be OK to eat, or you could save those combs for new bees in the spring.

There are several possible causes for 'no bees', but underlying most of them is a general decline in the hive population and bee health due to the effects of varroa mites. If you didn't periodically evaluate your hives varroa situation, odds are that varroa are related to the demise of those hives.

.


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## Gumpy (Mar 30, 2016)

You didn't treat for mites, did you?


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## suburbanrancher (Aug 5, 2011)

Is this your first year?

As stated above: brood comb darkens over time. And mites likely killed the bees or the bees absconded because of the mites.
You should read some books such as The Beekeeper's Handbook, and the Backyard Beekeeper. Become involved either in a local bee club or in the state association.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Since the bees usually put honey around the outside of a brood frame, you will typically see the dark oval shape of a well used brood nest contrasted with the lighter honeycomb around it. Any box that is put on top to collect honey is a super, regardless of size. Likewise the bottom boxes are the brood boxes or chambers, typically deeps (2), or mediums (3). 

From what has been posted on Beesource so far, I think we are going to see above average hive mortality due to varroa this year. One treatment of Apivar in early fall is allowing the mites to build back up at the worst time. Supplemental treatments with oav are necessary if you don't already have VSH bees.
Store the frames properly for the winter and you will have a great head start with your new packages or nucs next year!


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

I know the stock answer for 'why did my hive die' is to blame mites. Look carefully at photo number three. The light and angle makes it hard to tell for sure, but, that looks like some foulbrood to me. If that's the case, and this hive has been robbed out, then all the neighbors have it now too.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Possibly... indeed does look like dead brood. "Scortched" brood (i.e. dark) - EFB? (personally have never seen either - hope never to)
Frame photo clearly shows pinholes in brood caps.

"I was out there two or three weeks ago and both hives had bees coming and going."
Did you go into the hives?


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

JWPalmer said:


> ...
> From what has been posted on Beesource so far, I think we are going to see above average hive mortality due to varroa this year. One treatment of Apivar in early fall is allowing the mites to build back up at the worst time. ....


Yes, I have been thinking the same... Don't know what the rest of the country had, but we have gone all the way into Nov. with nice warm weather (the stalled system has now passed and we are back to normal - i.e. freezing).
I have been worried that warm weather would trigger higher might loads, since queens continued to lay longer - then the natural dying of summer bees.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Welcome to the forum!

Looks like foul brood or another brood disease to me. I have no experience with this but much experience with varroa disease. Varroa could be a part of the susceptibility though.

The dark combs are normal, maybe the bees tried to use much propolis, but what´s strange is that the ladders are so dark, too. When did you last check the broodnest area?

Send samples of honey to the lab. The honey can be used by you but don´t use any equipment for the bees if it´s contaminated by foul brood before doing some drastic disinfections.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Do send samples (bees and comb) into Beltsville ASAP to rule out foulbrood as the shrunken capped brood doesn’t look good. However the third pic shows a perfect example of PMS, there’s mite frass in almost every cell.


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## DTD350 (Jun 9, 2016)

I had a similar experience. Sunday I went out and my bees were coming and going as you would normally expect them to. Tuesday I went out fill the feeder and put my entrance reducer on and I had no bees. Not even dead bees. I had a pretty bad outbreak of mites this fall which I treated for but I don't think my hive was able to over come it and they absconded. This is my first season but my hive exhibits all signs of absconding and the only reason I have found for it was the bees felt they were weakened to a point where they absconded due to mites. I'll try again next year.


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## fatshark (Jun 17, 2009)

Are you sure it's absconding due to mites?? Did you open the hive and see many occupied frames or were the bees 'coming and going' actually robbers? If the feeder was emptied, are there several frames of sealed stores or was it the feeder that was being robbed?

I've seen some catastrophically-high mite levels this year ... colonies that will likely be lost this winter ... but none in which the bees 'voluntarily' cleared off elsewhere.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I would suspect mites, but EFB is a possibility, but EFB comes with PMS as well from my experience. Also, that is just dark comb, they re-used some old comb to make some of that comb in the middle of the hive most likely which is why it's dark in the middle and lighter comb on top of the other frames.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@JRG13

My own experience with EFB is contrary to the association you suggest with PMS (Parasitic Mite Syndrome). I found that a long bout of EFB this summer left the affected colonies at extremely low mite levels compared to the apparently non-affected colonies in the same yard.

When you think about it, that makes sense: EFB kills larvae before they are capped, which if it doesn't eventually kill the colony really messes up the _mites'_ reproductive success as well, since mites need capped bee pupae in order to increase their population.

I see EFB as an opportunistic infection, so I can see how a mite infestation might weaken a colony enough to allow EFB to take hold as a secondary infection. But I can't see it the other way around.

However, I am not recommending EFB as a mite-control strategy.

Nancy


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

late spring/summer EFB displays differently than fall/late fall EFB.


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

Looking in the cells in pic number three you can see the mite poop in just about all. The remaining brood had such a high level of infestation it died under the cappings.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@Clyderoad:

Could you elaborate on the differences in presentation between spring/early summer EFB and later-season EFB? Is there a different disease progression, or some other hallmark?

Nancy


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

John Davis said:


> you can see the mite poop


Now that is something I have never seen and I have been dealing with varroa mites for 30 years. What does mite poop look like?

AFB? Have any of you seen AFB first hand? I don't see anything in these three photos that leads me to suspect AFB.It would be a good idea for the beekeeper to examine the combs for AFB, if they know how. But unless there are actual signs of AFB, like scale in cells, sending samples to Beltsville is premature. Don't send honey to Beltsville, they don't test honey for AFB. They use suspected comb to determine the presence of AFB spores.


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

Mark
You can go to empire state honey producers and go through the key in their resources area starts on page 14 of wintering bees in the cold north. Good pictures to help identify cause of deadouts.
It is the small white crystals on the side of the brood cells.

You may not see them in your commercial operation as much.
I have seen a lot in hobby hives that folks have said to me "my bees disappeared" or died.
Looking in the cells at an angle with good light in the area around the last brood you find the poop in most of the cells, indicating that the last bees produced were weakened by mites.The last patchy brood was loaded up to the point they did not survive pupation. Typical of PMS along with viruses.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is a direct link to the ESHPA document John Davis mentions above:
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...intering+Bees+in+Cold+Climates.compressed.pdf

I note that the authors of that document include Diana Sammataro.


Say, Mark, it appears that you are currently President of ESHPA.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

enjambres said:


> @Clyderoad:
> 
> Could you elaborate on the differences in presentation between spring/early summer EFB and later-season EFB? Is there a different disease progression, or some other hallmark?
> 
> Nancy


The disease itself presents the same, the colony parameters and stresses are what is different.
The micro view (individual cell or larvae) remains the same, it's the macro view (bees in expansion mode, pollen stores, nectar frames, mite/virus levels, bee age dynamics, population) that displays differently.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

John Davis said:


> Mark
> You can go to empire state honey producers and go through the key in their resources area starts on page 14 of wintering bees in the cold north. Good pictures to help identify cause of deadouts.
> It is the small white crystals on the side of the brood cells.
> 
> ...


Thanks, John. I'll check that out.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Say, Mark, it appears that you are currently President of ESHPA.


Currently, but not for long.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@Clyderoad:

Thanks for replying, but I am still confused!

Would you mind trying again? What's visually different between the two seasons?

I get this much: 

Spring = expansion mode Fall = no

Spring = ? Fall = pollen

Spring = ? Fall = honey

Not sure where to assign the other categories you mentioned: nectar frames, mites/virus loads, bee age dynamics or population. And not sure what each of these translates out to in terms of what it looks like. For instance, what does a difference in mites/virus loads between the two seasons look like on the frames? And bee age dynamics?

I am sorry to seem so dense, but having had such a struggle with EFB this year, I want to learn as much about it as possible.

Early on, when I saw the first signs last spring, I allowed myself to be persuaded by more experienced beeks that it was "just" PMS, even though I should have known better, since PMS by definition requires high mite levels. Which I knew for certain wasn't a factor in my case for at least three years beforehand. (I knew because I treat regularly, but more importantly I monitor all the time, so I knew there hadn't been any 7 day period when the mites could be described as being at a "high level.") I wasted valuable time, when I might have been able to turn things around faster. And my bees paid a steep price for that hesitation. From what you are saying, it might perhaps have been possible to see evidence of EFB the autumn before that, if I had known what to look for. Or maybe not. Perhaps it was the stress of the fire in my apiary in early March that allowed a latent EFB infection to take hold, and then spread among hives.

Thanks for any insight you can share.

Nancy


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

enjambres said:


> ... but having had such a struggle with EFB this year, I want to learn as much about it as possible. ...


Oxalic acid can cause EFB. Not immediately. EFB can be a long-term effect of the oxalic acid medication for varroa.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

sjj said:


> Oxalic acid can cause EFB. Not immediately. EFB can be a long-term effect of the oxalic acid medication for varroa.


You need to cite a source for that claim. How does an organic acid cause a bacterial infection?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

^^^^ X2

I need a citation on that, as well. I could imagine how a long-term change in the hive pH (increase or decrease) could enhance the survivability of any disease-causing bacteria, but I would like to see evidence that OAV causes such a long-term change, and that such change actually specifically promotes EFB bacteria survival.

OAV is my main treatment modality since my most critical treatment is the broodless period one in the winter. But I suspect many people actually use OAV more frequently than I need to because I rely on very frequent monitoring to avoid unneccessary treatments.

And OAV has been used in Europe for decades longer than here, and even without having OxyTet to combat it (as we have here) I have not heard of a correspondingly high rate of EFB across the EU.

Somebody has surely studied this, and published the results if it is so. (And I have the most recent EU bee-veterinary textbooks in my library, and no mention of anything like that is noted.)

Nancy


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

JWPalmer said:


> You need to cite a source for that claim. How does an organic acid cause a bacterial infection?


I wish I didn’t have to.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

> I wish I didn’t have to.


It's a pretty bold claim and a few others seem to think so as well. I am sure you can understand why citing such a claim would be necessary before it can be considered as accurate or good info (at least to those who have never heard this).


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Any source will do, even if it is not a reliable one. One can understand a statement suggesting an increased susceptibility, to but try to create a direct causal link without supporting evidence is kind of like a drive by shooting.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

sjj said:


> I wish I didn’t have to.


Do not want to or can not? "Oxalic acid can cause EFB. Not immediately. EFB can be a long-term effect of the oxalic acid medication for varroa." Need facts to back up that claim. If you can please share.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

sjj said:


> I wish I didn’t have to.


Alright then, what makes you think so?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sjj said:


> Oxalic acid can cause EFB. Not immediately. EFB can be a long-term effect of the oxalic acid medication for varroa.


Unless you have proof/study that validates that statement, why would you post? Over 20 years use in Europe and I’ve not seen one mention that OA can cause EFB.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

sjj said:


> I wish I didn’t have to.


Don't hear nothing but the crickets. :lpf:


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

EFB is not a severe problem here ( AFB is more).
We are not using antibiotics for years because they don´t work in the long run.
I´ve never heard that Oxalic Acids cause EFB, I rather believe it helps because it increases the grooming behaviors, IMO.

Here a text out of an article:


> In an infected bee colony a balance between the multiplication and the elimination of the pathogen can exist for years. On the one hand, the bees transmit the pathogen with the contaminated feed to the brood, on the other hand they remove it with the brood cleared and the cells cleaned. The hygiene behavior of bees thus has a decisive influence on the disease process. The expression of this behavioral feature is genetically determined, but is adversely affected by unfavorable housing conditions, poisoning with plant protection products or other diseases such as varroosis.
> 
> The sick and weakened colonies are often the target of robber bees. The food can thus lead to a massive infection. The drifting of bees, on the other hand, plays only a minor role.
> 
> ...


In switzerland the EFB is a big problem, many hives infected and obliged to be registered. Some claim this is because in switzerland the beekeepers raise huge production hives and weaken the bees with migrating much and swarm prevention ( no brood break).


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

enjambres>>


> For instance, what does a difference in mites/virus loads between the two seasons look like on the frames?


Many times capped pupa will be melting down under the cappings in the fall as well as typical uncapped larvae showing infection. Other capped cells will be perferated giving a sense of PMS. Open cells with larvae display like you'd expect.
A late infection to the larvae (7 or 8 days old) is thought to be the reason for EFB infected larvae to have made it to cappping time and be capped. A possible cause is the late infection may well be transmitted by infected mites feeding on larvae.
My fall observations concur with this scenario. My spring time observations do not.
Some pics at the end of the following article:
https://beeinformed.org/2013/04/05/european-foulbrood-efb-identification/



> From what you are saying, it might perhaps have been possible to see evidence of EFB the autumn before that, if I had known what to look for.


I am not saying that at all. 



> I wasted valuable time, when I might have been able to turn things around faster. And my bees paid a steep price for that hesitation.


I agree and thought that at the time.

It appears to me that much energy is spent on 'mites' and that the brood diseases command little attention. When beekeepers control mite infestations successfully (and many now are as colonies are living longer) the window of opportunity opens for the brood diseases.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@Clyderoad:

Thank you for expanding on your comments, and for the link.

I didn't really mean that you were saying I could have seen it the previous fall, I meant that I might have seen it the previous fall if I had known what to look for. I had a slight exposure in my yard during the previous summer through a visit to another yard that had EFB (which I did not know about on my first visit there, so took no particular precautions.) After my second visit when I clearly saw the signs of an early summer infection, I maintained rigid cross-contamination precautions. However it's possible the transmission had already occurred but remained in latent throughout the summer and fall. I was told by "experts" that if there was no expression of any symptoms by the end of Fall, I was in the clear. And none were visible; neither the classic spring pattern - which was what I was looking for - nor what you have described in your last post. I wouldn't have made the connection between the fall symptoms you described and EFB, but I would have noted those symptoms anyway and followed up on them, because I was hyper-vigilant during that period.

Then, of course I had the fire in early March which was an enormous stress on all my bees; the intense burning-plastic toxic smoke killed two colonies within days, and I believe weakened the others. And that set the stage for EFB to emerge later in the spring.

The good news is that my remaining colonies look OK going into winter, and by next spring I will have such a surplus of newly gamma-rayed equipment and combs I could do shook swarms on them all, if I want. (And it was thanks to you that I made a patch with the PA folks who organize the gamma-radiation affair. I will be trucking my stuff down from north of Albany to join them. And I will have at least two pallets as I am going to take down every beekeeping thing I own to be treated, not just the boxes and combs that are off the hive.)

I really regret dithering about the Oxytet treatment. I won't do that again. In my defense I got caught up in the absurd anti-treatment miasma that attaches to a lot of beekeeping these days It is a vastly different thing to routinely use Oxytet as a preventive (or more accurately, a suppressant) vs treating an proven, overt infection. At the time it just seemed like I might be doing a wrong, and worse, likely ineffective, thing by treating. Which was clearly disproved when I went to administer the second dose after four days: I had healthy little larvae for the first time in months. And by the time the treatment series was finished I had fat pearly white grubs just itching to get capped. 

The thing is, treating will clear it up in the bees in the colony, but I am not sure it will clear it out of the colony. Despite not having the famously long-lasting spores of AFB, EFB bacteria can live in hive conditions on combs, box interiors, accessory equipment, etc., for a surprisingly long time. So I won't count myself out of the woods for another 10 months or more. It could well rear its head again next spring. I think that the residual infectivity of the EFB-causing bacteria and its ability to survive on the hive surfaces (and perhaps in stores as well) is what adds to the general notion that once you treat, you can't ever stop, and that treating with Oxytet is ineffective. Oxytet was highly effective against the strain of EFB in my colonies. And hopefully my on-going efforts to switch out boxes and aggressively cull combs also helped lower the bacterial load. I am still in the process of moving some colonies into new equipment, even as late as this week. 

My advice in the future to anyone facing a lab-documented case of EFB (not treating on spec, though) would be to treat with Oxytet (despite the current difficulty of getting access to the medicine) and turn a deaf ear to the nonsense swirling around about antibiotic treatment for bees. Most of that is connected to the routine antibiotic treatment by large commercial beekeepers (and I think that has probably changed very little despite the new regs), which is a completely different situation from a diagnosed outbreak in a small yard. And yes, it means you'll likely get no honey crop that year because of the long blackout after treating. But so what, what's better: live bees feeding on their on honey for a year, or dead bees? And dead bees, or worse, a substantially failing hive that can spread the bacteria to other hives or yards, are not what I choose.

I don't plan on treating next spring as a precaution. But I will begin treating immediately if I see symptoms, or if regular surveys using the Vita tests show infected larvae. And I will move them on to fresh equipment, even sacrificing all their brood, if necessary. I appreciate the irony that I, someone who puts _so much effort_ into always preventing swarming, may artificially swarm every single one of my colonies next year. In fact, I think my anti-swarm tactics will be considerably different, anyway, since no combs will be moved between colonies (in retrospect a big vector this year). And I will be culling any combs used for brood this past summer - I have marked all that remain -during my early spring manipulations. I've got things arranged so that when they start brood in their top boxes, they will be on combs that have only been used for honey this year, not brood. I may wind up being as comb-poor as any first-wintering new beekeeper -so my bees may think that swarming is their idea, not mine. But I will not let them get away because I now know that swarms can take EFB with them. I shudder when I read here on BS of the enthusiasm for "free bees" from swarms. You couldn't pay me to hive a swarm that I didn't see leave one of my own colonies.

Nancy


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Nancy,
How can you completely exclude the environment?
Bees live just as uncontrollably as birds, maybe you have already passed the bacteria on to wild living colonies in your area?
You say yourself, you brought in the EFB, that will happen again.
Why do you always blame the other beekeepers if your bees are not resistant and you do everything to prevent resistance?
This story is heartbreaking.
No offense meant and good luck. May you have joy in beekeeping again.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Not enough detail in the pix to make a diagnosis for the dead out. In the second pix (of the two comb), I believe the comb on the left shows scattered (shot hole) Drone cells. This is likely due to a drone layer queen or a laying worker situation. The hive has likely been in decline for months (and the initial cause is too far gone to determine), the hive was robbed (as per chewed cells in the detail picture) at the terminal stage.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

For those who were wondering about mite frass (aka mite poop): I read somewhere that mite poop only occurs on the roof of the cell, and only after successful mite reproduction. The pics show a lot of mite frass. That means bees are being born with a reduced life span, and can mean the adults get "sucked dry" too. When larvae are colonized by a mite, they grow up to be bees who won't remember as well where to forage, won't fly as far, won't carry as much, and live shorter lives. YOu can run out of foragers pretty quickly under those circumstances.

Be aware that a lot of bee traffic in and out can happen with a hive having a SMALL brood nest - they can burn their foragers out, if too few are developing in the hive to join the forager forces.

Robbers don't leave honey behind.

Absconding bees don't leave much brood behind. They will have shut the queen down earlier.

Any queen cells? there was a queen who seems to abruptly stopped laying in the hive which shows the pics with capped brood. Sometimes that means she was squashed and then the bees did not have time to raise a new queen. Sometimes it means she was poorly mated. It happens.  

Can't remember if you have 2 with the same symptoms, or multiple supers (that's what I call the shallow frames that sit on top of the brood nest. Now you see why we call the deeper boxes the broodnest). Anyways, that comb is a GOLD MINE for your future package. the OP will be able to split that single hive this upcoming summer for sure for increase - or get a nice honey crop. Be sure to PROTECT that comb. Close that up tight, so no new wax moth can enter the hive. They can recolonize a hive in the spring before you know it and wreck the combs. The cold over the winter will kill off any eggs. But close it up! Other wise it can just be stored outside.

Dear OP, I'm glad you found Beesource, but I hope you find a mentor or a bee class or a bee club. It is so enjoyable to watch a hive with a deep understanding of the whys and hows - it is just very hard to get that from a book. A beekeeping journey doesn't have to be solo and will be ultimately easier with company who's nearby. While anyone who's part of a bee club has to filter the BS from the good advice, and turn away from the drama sometimes, it can ultimately be worth it. ANd if you don't like that club, there's probably another nearby!


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Oh and mite frass is a lot easier to see with a headlamp. It's always on the ROOF of the cell. I don't know WHY I'm using so many caps today! Just feeling loud.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Not enough detail in the pix to make a diagnosis for the dead out. In the second pix (of the two comb), I believe the comb on the left shows scattered (shot hole) Drone cells. This is likely due to a drone layer queen or a laying worker situation. The hive has likely been in decline for months (and the initial cause is too far gone to determine), the hive was robbed (as per chewed cells in the detail picture) at the terminal stage.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@SiWolke,

I think you completely misunderstand the situation - there is nothing heartbreaking about it. My bees are largely fine (except for the ones that perished because of the toxic smoke in the fire.) I have been put to significant expense, and quite a bit of extra effort to deal with this, but that does not trouble me.

What I did learn, though, is that there is an enormous and powerful undertow against doing the obvious, and correct thing, under my particular circumstances, which was to simply treat the colonies with OxyTet and get on with it. That's a mistake I will not make again.

I may have gotten the infection from my visit to another beekeeper who had EFB. I may gotten it from a small swarm I hived the previous summer (the only new bees that have come to my yard for a couple of years, a colony which died the day after the fire - and whose resources I used later on in the spring). I may have gotten it from my bees robbing out a nearby hive, whether feral or managed. Or I may have had the bacteria in my hives all along, and it simply overwhelmed some of my fire-stressed colonies and became an overt, increasing problem last spring. 

I dithered over the treatment decision partly because of all the foolishness attached to the treatment-free beekeeping cannon these days. I read and pondered all the condemnations of treating bees with antibiotics and I struggled to see a clear path for my bees, in my situation, among the conflicting points of view. 

I did not weaken my colonies by treating them. I did not weaken the bees' collective genetic pool by treating my bees. I certainly protected all the nearby colonies by arresting the downward spiral of the illness in my colonies before they could become victims of robbing. I actively culled all the drone-brood from my sick colonies (though there was almost none). I made absolutely sure that I didn't lose a swarm from any colony - healthy or not - during the period when some of the colonies in my yard were sick. I prevented any equipment removed from the sick hives from being visited by bees while awaiting gamma-radiation treatment next spring. I took considerable, and on-going, pains to prevent any infection from passing through me to any of my students' colonies. And I was very careful to make sure my use of OxyTet was correctly dosed, and applied exactly as prescribed so as not to undertreat and contribute to the build up of resistance.

And I consider myself, and my bees, very lucky to live close enough to a bee-vet to enable me to obtain the needed medicine to help them get well again.

My only concern now is avoiding, or reducing, the chances of re-infection from within the colonies, through still-contagious bacteria remaining on the combs or in the stores. Only time will tell if what I was able to accomplish this year was enough, or whether (as apparently is common with EFB) it takes more that one year to lower the bacteria load sufficiently to reduce the problem to something the bees can take care of their own.

And I never lost my joy and affection for my bees, despite their need for intensive care this summer. 

Nancy


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

enjambres said:


> ...
> I may have gotten the infection from my visit to another beekeeper who had EFB. I may gotten it from a small swarm I hived the previous summer (the only new bees that have come to my yard for a couple of years, a colony which died the day after the fire - and whose resources I used later on in the spring). I may have gotten it from my bees robbing out a nearby hive, whether feral or managed. Or I may have had the bacteria in my hives all along, and it simply overwhelmed some of my fire-stressed colonies and became an overt, increasing problem last spring.
> ...
> Nancy


I would consider a quarantine out-yard. Put any new colonies there until you know the state of their health.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

enjambres>> I am happy after reading your post tonight. You have been as diligent as anyone in controlling and understanding the situation.
Just a couple of thoughts:
> Many of us (I) have delayed taking action for a multitude of reasons, so you are not alone there. In retrospect, most of us (I) also wish we (I) had not delayed action at the time. We are human. We move on with what we have learned.
> The affects of stress can not be under estimated. Colonies can do wonders working through a mild case. Requeening and feeding fresh syrup has worked for me in the past, not everytime, but it's worth keeping under your hat.
Spring time can be a stressful time for a multitude of reasons. Pollen sub and syrup in the spring may remove some stress in colonies that fought a battle last year.
> Good about the oxytet it has a short 1/2 life. Tylan doesn't. 
>I wouldn't treat prophylactically in the spring either. 

All the best to you.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Thank you, Clyderoad -

You have been very helpful to me throughout this; a great source of contacts and offering useful observations from the point of view of _someone who has actually dealt with EFB_ (and not just read about it). 

I studied the link to the BIP/EFB-blog you passed on yesterday. The pictures were very good, and I'm happy to say they bear no resemblance to what I was seeing in my formerly-sick colonies this fall. (Nor last fall either.) But aside from the excellent pictures, some of the author's assertions about the interaction of mites, as an amplifying primary _vector_ of EFB (as opposed to being a primary stressor) didn't entirely convince me. Maybe the author has done more work on that theory than is visible on that link? It seemed like some of his ideas were proceeding a bit in advance of what is well-accepted science. I will have more time to follow up on that during the winter.

Nancy


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

MikeJ,

The swarm I hived on July 1 of 2016 (it was bivouacked on my next door neighbor's blueberry bush, so it was quite a local swarm, though not from my yard) was taken to a quarantine area and did not join my bees until I was packing everybody up for winter. It looked fine all summer. 

And in its defense, I actually took a frame of brood from it early last fall and donated it to a student's hive to test for queenrightness. The student's hive never showed any sign of EFB last spring, nor has it since then. That colony (my student's) wound up being moved to another beekeeper quite close to me this summer, so I have continued to examine it regularly.

I am a firm believer in quarantine yards and the enthusiasm that some people have for hiving swarms from hither and yon and bringing them home to their own yard gives me the willies. But eventually, if all looks well, as it did in the case of the swarm last fall, you have to move them out of quarantine. Or start a new yard, which I haven't got time for. 

Nancy


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Nancy, Are you referring to my hives that may have brought EFB into your apiary? I have read your previous posts about having EFB but never considered that they came from my hives because the state beekeeper didn't think it was EFB and the test came back NEG. J


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