# Is 14 watt enough supplement heat



## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

how cold do your winters get? I use the beehive heater from warmbees.com only in my smallest of nucs (3 bars) here in VA. And I only really need them for the 1 week of "winter" that we get here in VA. It has a low and high setting. I leave it on the low so they keep the tiny cluster warm, but not too warm.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I don't believe bees need to bee heated in winter. Heating them is just asking for problems.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

No need. Especially in your area. A strong nuc with plenty of stores is all you need.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

You need a Thermo Cube (amazon) to turn it on at 35 deg and off at 45 deg. Just enough to keep the bees from freezing on those 20 degrees nights. I used a 7 watt under aquarium heater. 14 watt might be a bit high but the Thermo Cube will turn it off before it causes the bee to get too warm.

You really don't need any heat above 20 degrees, it will cause the bees to eat too much stores and starve. A small cluster the size of a base ball has no problems keeping warm above 20 degrees.

I found it easier to move small hives in the garage when it got below 20 degrees, and move them back out when it was 45 degrees. Greater than 80% success rate on small hives that would not have made it through our bitterly cold -5 degree short winters.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?295359-Over-Wintering-in-the-Garage-Update


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

Believe it or not, if it's warm enough to rain, it ain't cold! Sacramento has one of the most perfect climates for raising bees in the world. I'm always baffled by the angst and energy you spend to winterize and heat your colonies. 
Try spending a winter where the air is so cold that it hurts your face. Those people don't give their nucs heaters.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've used a 7 watt heater on a nuc with queens banked. It was warm enough that they would break cluster.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> I've used a 7 watt heater on a nuc with queens banked. It was warm enough that they would break cluster.


More details, please? What time of the year was this, and for how long were they banked? And what kind of cages? I plan to bank mated well laying queens over our mild winter and am working on a game plan. Already have my heater and I know from last year, the bees break cluster all the time in my part of VA. Just trying to work out all the details for success. (And it would help if I didn't keep finding queen cells in my hives instead of the young queens from summer that I am expecting to find)


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Please keep in mind that this is only an experiment to see how much active the bees going to get and how
much stores they need to overwinter. That is why I wanted to do this little bee experiment. If the 14 watt is 
too hot then I will install a temp. controller to set at 80F low and 90F high for them. 

Already bought the materials so might as well do this just for the bee experience. Been trying to do this for a few
seasons already. I want to know how many frames of bees going into winter and how many I will get coming out of
winter in a heated nuc hive environment. Right now they have 3 frame of bees in there. 

Food is not an issue since I have them in all winter long-- patty subs, honey water (warm enough to feed inside), and
sugar bricks.

Thanks all for the input. And the queen banking experiment is a good idea. Never thought of that before so please provide more details, Mr. Bush. Any success using your method?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Beepro, do you plan to add a window so you can "see" what is happening in there? I've got windows in all my TBH's and nucs. Really educational to go out when the temps are 40 degrees and see what they are doing. I'm usually pleasantly surprised by their activity inside when nothing is happening outside.

I also add temperature probes into the cluster to see what type of temps they maintain. You may want to get one so you know how hot it too hot.

This one has a long wire that lets you place it deep in the cluster of bees. It even has a receiver unit that you can set on your kitchen table, if you are not too far away from the apiary, and it will show you the numbers from the comfort of your home. https://www.ambientweather.com/amf007tp.html


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

More of a questioning thought than an answer but have any of you NH bKs looked at ground heat in non-permafrost zones?
For a fixed wintering outyard there has to be merit in harvesting ground heat to deny subzero box temps, yeh?

Bill


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have 3 stacks of the garage insulation foam panels that I can use to make a box surrounding these 
nuc hives. For sturdiness I have the metal tubes left over from the disassembled tent that I can use to
tie the foam panels together. Then inside will be 2 temp probes like you described one for each hive.

If I make the foam panel box big enough then it will shield out the element inside a 10x10 metal tent. Then I can
go inside the foam box to watch the bees while the heating pads are on. The temp probes will help me to monitor
the inside hive temp adjusting it when necessary. There are still many questions that I have on overwintering a hive
in a mild winter climate area. Can they withstand the yearly arctic chills here just before brood up time?


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

How would one harvest ground heat; with a Heat exchanger? Seems kind of pricey?
Or did you mean something like placing the colonies in the ground? I do not know about NH but where I am in Maine - our frost goes to 6' so in-ground would have to be below 6' to gain any warmth (unless you built up)... and that is not to mention that any hole in the spring is a pond.

We tend to go to -20/-30F for a number of days and then push up a bit, then drop back into it (usually can expect a few days at near 40F sprinkled in which is good times to pull a lid if you have to). While I am not the most (hardly) astute beekeeper - bees seem to deal well with the cold... the moisture kills.

Besides why would I want to heat a hive? They have no abilities to forage so warming them up simply is taking a chance on them eating through their stores and having to feed them.

Is there really any winter prepping needed when you winter lows are 40f?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Here is the good point about using Mel's method over here. During the winter time the queens will not stop
laying. She will speed up hive expansion around mid-Jan. Other than seeing how the brood nest reacted with
supplement heat, I want to see how they react when the outside and inside temp has much difference.

Actually I wanted to see how feeding will or will not increase the brood nest during the winter time too. Because I
can sourced my own patty subs ingredients here, I like to keep the bees well fed all winter long. This is not about
prepping but about providing supplement heat to see how the hives grow. If left alone like other years they will stay 
put until hive expansion time again. 

Now with the supplement heat I don't know how they will react. Perhaps too much heat will kill them all or they are
able to regulate the temp because they are active all winter long. Will the queen continue to expand pass the little patches of brood this winter under a constant high temp inside? How many frames can they expand to since the queen is newly mated.
Also I want to practice the II through out this winter if possible. Put a frame of the drone comb in there and they will continue to make the drone broods. So without supplement heat and food scarcity they will boot out the drones approaching winter. What if there is plenty of food and at a higher temp inside than normal this winter? Will they make and keep the drones or not?


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

My guess...
If your temps are in the 40s (F), meaning they are not likely to fly a lot, and your heating the inside of the hive...
If the inside temps are high enough they may act as they would up here in the summer when we get rained out (temps usually hit upper 40s-60s F when it does this) - i.e. building brood and wanting to swarm the first sign of good weather. But since it is winter - I have no idea what effects daylight length might have (some may say none - but that would be very odd. Length of daylight effects a lot of animal I know - possibly all. Chickens, cows, etc. all have effects you can see from changing daylight).

As for drones - I believe drones are tossed out more in reaction to forage disappearing. Sometimes in summer dearths drones get booted.


I know from an observation hive we had once - if we closed the entrance for any amount of time, the temp insides would go up (I am guessing that is the cause) - then when we opened it, dozens of bees would rush the entrance and try to fly (not very successful at below freezing).


- - - - -
What happened to Bill (eltalia)? I just noticed it says "banned" under his nick?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have no idea! Update me when you know why?


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## Geno (Apr 23, 2015)

Trees, natural habitat for any honeybee, do not have heat sources other than the Sun. All feral colonies that I have observed have easily vented locations. If hives are protected from high winds and are properly vented the honeybee will survive. Adding additional heat will cause problems such as breaking cluster and going on cleansing flights to find weather conditions not conducive to survival. IMO, properly protected and vented hives will survive cold weather conditions. Good Luck with your hives.


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## markus2 (Nov 6, 2015)

In my area (Massachusetts), 14 watts was not enough during especially colder temps (0-35 deg F) to maintain 80 degrees inside the hive. I insulated them with 1 inch foam board and 14 watts was not enough to maintain such a high temperature inside the hives. I think the better method is to have ample higher wattage and have a thermostat that will regulate the temperature.


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## Geno (Apr 23, 2015)

Colonies do not heat the entire internal hive body area, they maintain temperature requirements of the cluster only, summer or winter. They do not need living conditions desirable to humans. Thermography images indicate this. 

I find it amazing how honeybees have survived for millions of years without human intervention for heating and cooling.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

It's 14 watts too much.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So different location, different winter and the method used is different. 
JW, Markus2 said it is not enough. Now I'm thinking to use 28 watt per hive. I bought
56 watt total of the heating pad. Might as well make a big foam panel box and put all the
heat pads in there with them. Beach towels are on!


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

jwcarlson said:


> It's 14 watts too much.


Exactly right.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Why stop at 56? A hundred watt light bulb inside the top cover will keep them nice and toasty. Go big or go home, Beepro.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I asked the president of our bee assoc. about supplemental heat for the hive when i first got my bees. He looked at me as if I had gone completely daft. Seemed logical to me at the time. Now its going to be sbb with ipm board in place and a top vent for the moisture to escape. I think the bees can handle the heating as long as I keep them fed. I am going to wrap the hives just in case.


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## markus2 (Nov 6, 2015)

He's doing an experiment. I will say that I have successfully nursed week hives with supplemental heat and I'm so glad I did it. If a beekeeper has the means, and wants to do it...why not? You can spend $20-$30 of electricity or spend hundreds of dollars for more bees. In the end you always learn something.


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## Geno (Apr 23, 2015)

Markus2, One more option exists. Combine weak hives for winter and split the following spring. Saved the weak hives, doubled hive count the next spring at no cost for the beekeepers. No heating equipment, no higher utility bills, and a learning experience for beginning beekeepers that will continually increase honeybee numbers. Win-Win.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The light bulb is insufficient for hive space versus a 25 watt electric element or the 1/4" heat pads for animals/insects. Rather than having another box for the light build why not use these thin heat pads to save some hive space. I plan to put these pads on the 2 outer side of the hive box. If that doesn't work then I will put these pads on top of the nuc boxes inside a big foam panel box. Either way it will get done efficiently. That is why I don't like to use the bulky light bulb.

Here is the best part about my little bee experiment, I plan to do more II queens over this winter months using my homemade II ghetto station. Sorry that I have not make this station in time for your drone laying queen offer last time, JW. I finally managed to find all the local materials to complete my station 2 week after your offer. Now I can experiment with the drone laying queen as long as I have the drones available. So initially they will be a very small nuc hive since there will only be 2-3 frame of bees in these II queen nucs. As their hive population expand I can make more splits with more II queens made. It will be a fun experiment to do beekeeping all year long. 

Yes, combining the hives in an already contracted brood nest during the winter time is one method to make the remaining hive stronger. But doing this will give you fewer hive number and queens. Typically this is the traditional advice approaching winter hive contraction time. Now I'm doing an experiment of trying to expand the hive numbers all year long, including the winter time. That is why during our arctic chills season, I have to rely on these heat pads for the II hive expansion experiment. That is why I ask is 14 watt enough per nuc hive to start? Besides, my battery back up solar station is already up to power these heat pads. It is free energy after the initial cost. Been sitting there for the last 4 years without using the free energy. After 4 years, now the free energy can be use at last. Think of efficiency, limitation of hive resource and materials used when designing these little bee experiment.

Surprised that you don't see any mites? My mite removal method works!



Fresh new drones & graft 2 days ago:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>More details, please? What time of the year was this

From when it got cold that year (October I think) to when we had a long warm spell in December I had the heater on them. At first when it got cold the cluster contracted and the queens on the ends died. It wasn't all that cold at that point. So I added the terrarium heater and they broke cluster. 

>and for how long were they banked? 

Actually I banked them in June.

>And what kind of cages?

JZBZ cages. Like this:

http://shop.honeyrunapiaries.com/queen-banking-frame-jz-bz


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>More details, please? What time of the year was this

From when it got cold that year (October I think) to when we had a long warm spell in December I had the heater on them. At first when it got cold the cluster contracted and the queens on the ends died. It wasn't all that cold at that point. So I added the terrarium heater and they broke cluster. 

>and for how long were they banked? 

Actually I banked them in June.

>And what kind of cages?

JZBZ cages. Like this:

http://shop.honeyrunapiaries.com/queen-banking-frame-jz-bz


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So today the small animal heat pads arrived. I'm very anxious to put
them inside the nuc hive for a test, 20 watt on all 4 small pads. My only
concern now is whether or not the hive will benefit from the extra heat. Will they grow more bees over this winter or will the hive maintain the hive population somewhat without dwindling away too much?

I made 2 foam boards lined with aluminum foils on all sides. Then put 2 small heat pads on one side next to each
other. And then use aluminum tapes to secure the pads on. Underneath each pad have 2 pieces of double fold
paper towels with the pad resting on top. Don't want the heat to burn through the thin foam boards underneath. Then these boards along with the heat pads will be placed on either side of the hive box being careful not to put too close to the drawn comb. Four comb frames will be in the middle between them with one pollen frame removed from the outside. Pollen frame donated to the other nuc hive without the pads.

The initial temp probe placed inside the bee cluster reading is low in the 70s which I think is incorrect. But after 5 minutes the temp is around 80s. After 15 minutes the temp is around mid 80s. The amazing thing is after 2 hours the inside hive temp is around 84F, which is a bit warm for the hive compare to the initial temp reading. But I want the internal hive temp to be around 80-90F all winter long. If the normal hive temp is around 94F then 84F is nothing to worry about. I can adjust the hive temp also by opening the hive entrance all the way (now it is only one bee space) or lower the heat pads temp by adjusting the small controller to the low side. What a fun and interesting little bee experiment with unknown outcome yet!

Will the sun add more heat tomorrow morning? Definitely but how much will be added? Can the bees withstand this combination of heat? 

I still have a timer for this set up not in use yet. Having a timer on will set the right temp at the right time through out the entire 24 hrs. What range should I set this timer for starting from 7pm to 7am?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A normal temperature in the middle of the cluster, when they are not raising brood is more like 70 F not 90 F. You should not make it between 80-90 F in the hive all winter. If you are using heat, your goal for the hive itself should be between 30-40 F. Any warmer will shorten their lives and cause them to eat too much stores. 7 watts is perhaps a little too much heat. 20 is way too much heat. If you put one pad underneath between two hives that are up against each other that would get down to about 10 watts each, which would be much better. I've never done a heater on a timer. I have done one on a thermostat. If the thermostat went down to 40 that's what I would set it at. Usually they don't, so I set them as low as they will go and still turn on. I think consistency will be better for the bees than to have things turning off and on. If I were in Sacramento, I would not even consider using any kind of heat on a hive. It only makes much difference here when it gets sub zero for several days. I do not use heat on full size hives, ever. Just nucs and only to mitigate those sub zero days. Your record cold was in 1932 when it hit 17 F and lasted for only a week. I would consider that a typical moderate winter day. It was 25 F this morning here. Winter isn't really here yet.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I already put in the thermostat but not the timer yet.
I don't know the hive temp from 1am to 7am. This morning the hive temp is around 77F around
9am. So I would imagine that overnight they can maintain the hive temp around 83F all night long.

I'll leave in the thermost and not use the timer as it is not needed. The only difference in temp is in the 
morning when the foragers are away that will drop the temp to 77F from 83F. Once the sun come up again 
the normal hive temp will be in the 80s. Guess only the cap broods will need the 94F but not all of them.

Yes, the large hive will not need additional heat but the small nuc hives will. Most likely I would like to see that my
Italians bees will grow over the winter months. And eat their winter stores like the syrup, sugar bricks and patty
subs I give them. At this temp the syrup is not cold. For a small nuc with only 2-3 frame of bees it is very affordable. Until
the hive is growing like early Spring time they will not use much feed over this winter. Best of all I don't have to baby sit them all winter long this time. 

Without the mites now the hive population will grow somewhat. 2-3 frame of bees is what I'm expecting over this winter. Yes, the old bees will died but the new big fat winter bees will replace them. And with rainy weather they will not fly much which will further enable the new workers to care for the larvae. With supplement heat, a new mated laying queen, plenty of food, they will survive this winter. This is my expectation of using these small heat pads. Will it works? I hope so as this is only a small little bee experiment!


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## Ruthz (Sep 13, 2011)

Please keep us posted about your results. I am fascinated. 

I don't know if this helps, but I have used seed-starting mats under nucs when the size of the cluster is too small. I usually check my hives on the rare warm day in Jen or Feb, and any clusters that are too small (less than the size of a grapefruit), I will heat from below. I don't know the wattage, but the packaging says that it will keep seeds and the surrounding area about 10 degrees warmer than the outside temperature.

I'd love to hear what you find.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The seed mats are too expensive compare to what I'm using now. A lot cheaper than
the electric seed mats. Only time will tell of the outcome.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So apparently the 20 watt cannot keep up with the outside drop in temp.
Earlier at around 8pm, I plug in the heater. The reading was 68.1 and 84.2F. The first # is
the temp controller reading and the 2nd # is the dummy probe reading inside the brood nest.

At around 12 a.m., we have 65.8 and 82.4F. My conclusion so far is that the bees prefer their
hive (cluster) temp to be around 83F with a difference of 1.8 degree. If the hive temp increased by
1 degree then the cluster temp also increased by about 1 degree. Then the heater bees will start to
shut down until the cluster temp is back to normal again around 83F at night. 

Since the 20 watt cannot keep up with the outside drop in night temp, I have to add another 20 degree to
this nuc hive. If 20 watt can generate 68F on a cool 45F night temp then I have to get another 10 or 15 watt
added. Will go with a small cheap 15 or 20 watt reptile black light emitter connecting to the current set up using
the same temp controller. Back to the same question, is 40 watt enough?

I learn something from this experiment so far that the heater bees can adjust to their surrounding temp change turning
on and off when needed to adjust their hive temp around 83F. Also that the heater can be leave on until 10 am without any issue. After that the sun will take over to heat up the hives.


The highest temp reading that the bees will allowed:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The bees are only concerned about the temperature of the cluster. If the temperature in the hive is 70 F (or even 55 F) they will not cluster at all and that is a bad thing in winter... The goal of the bees is not to heat the hive, but the cluster.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

IF I had total control over the temperature in the hive over winter I would NEVER let it get above 40 F. I could care less if it gets down to 25 F. I really only worry if the temperatures outside get sub zero and then only for nucs. Sub zero will never happen in Sacramento...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

What I find amusing is that Beepro says elsewhere that his Italians ALREADY lay throughout his "mild" Sacramento CA winters, _without any_ supplemental heat.



beepro said:


> The queens can lay in small patches through out the winter time. [HIGHLIGHT] They will never stop laying all winter long because we are in a mild winter area. [/HIGHLIGHT]


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You are correct. Because the queens never stop laying I have to give them the supplement
heat pads. This is to keep the queens laying through out the entire season especially in the winter time. With
supplement feeding I would hope that these nucs would grow more bees coming out of winter. That is why
the supplement heat is so important in the nuc hives. It is the inside hive temp that I'm worry about since it
is cold here during the winter time. What do I worry about? It is the chilled broods when the newly mated Italians
queens are still laying inside. Supplement heat will avoid the chilled brood situation. Do you think this will work, Mr. Bush and Rader?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

beepro said:


> It is the inside hive temp that I'm worry about since it
> is cold here during the winter time.


First you say you’ve mild winters, then you say you have cold winters. Do you know? 
Perhaps you could use your OAV gadget to help? BTW what’s become of it?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The oav gadget project is on hold for now. And the oap (powder) generator gadget is also on hold as well. No long have the motivation to use it because the cap brood mite removal method (IPM) is still working using small 2-3 frame of bees with a newly mated late Autumn queen. For now I put it on suspense. Even the you tube vid on my oav vid upload got deleted by you tube not me. 

Until the time it is needed, I will concentrate on the oap gadget more because it is for dusting the mites just like sugar dusting. Mass production = profits! The oap gadget can also use other acids-- lactic, ascorbic, natural or synthetic, etc. to produce the powder in mass quantity at one time whichever is the cheapest to produce. Of course, a safety direction on how to apply the acid powder will be provided. Safety first, always!

Will beekeepers need to use the oav wand anymore when they have a better and safe method of killing the mites using the oap? 
After the many posts here saying that oav wand catches on fire when they use it, will they ever use it anymore? Maybe it is time to 
provide a better and safer solution to using oap instead.

The mild winter environment is true when you compare it to the winter snowing regions. This is a comparison in the temp to other regions by zone. We're in zone 9b so it is consider a mild area.

A mild region also has its winter dips. At the lowest we will have our yearly arctic chills with chilly to the bones wind coming from AK. And since CA has very diverse and different micro-climate through out the north and southern region, it just so happen that I live in a mild winter area with the arctic chills too. Depending on how the winds blow from north during the winter time, it could be directly toward us or blowing NE to send the snow storms there. Mother nature I have no control over that. Check out the zone map for our region. My answer is both--mild and chilly at times!


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

OA (wood bleach) is not healthy stuff - respirator (or quality dust mask) should be worn when dealing with it, plus skin protection.

I am thinking that vaporizing oa is possibly safer since, in reality, you are exposing yourself less with the vapor method.

added: *** the "quality dust mask" comment is *only* for oa in dust form - a respirator is a *must* for safely vaporizing oa.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

MikeJ said:


> OA (wood bleach) is not healthy stuff - respirator (or quality dust mask) should be worn when dealing with it, plus skin protection.
> 
> I am thinking that vaporizing oa is possibly safer since, in reality, you are exposing yourself less with the vapor method.
> 
> added: *** the "quality dust mask" comment is *only* for oa in dust form - a respirator is a *must* for safely vaporizing oa.


I’m confused by your post. When vaporizing, it is the vapors and condensed crystals that requires one to wear a mask. What is the OA “dust form” you’ve mentioned? And how is one handling or applying it?


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

snl said:


> I’m confused by your post. When vaporizing, it is the vapors and condensed crystals that requires one to wear a mask. What is the OA “dust form” you’ve mentioned? And how is one handling or applying it?


Beepro said he was working on an oa dusting method.... so my warning was about handling the powder.
Vaporizing oa is probably safer since you are using a "wand" type tool and most is being contained in the hive.... if your powdering it in that means you are handling the oa powder.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

by the way SNL... Seems there would be oa crystal residues in the hive... if so have any studies been done on beekeeper exposure to oa crystal residues in the hive? (I have never used oav)


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

MikeJ said:


> Beepro said he was working on an oa dusting method.... so my warning was about handling the powder.


BP has been “working “ on an oav project for ... years and it went nowhere (he posted a video which basically showed nothing) which is probably where the “powder” project will go, again nowhere. He got started on those projects after his project of removing mites with a razor blade.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

MikeJ said:


> by the way SNL... Seems there would be oa crystal residues in the hive... if so have any studies been done on beekeeper exposure to oa crystal residues in the hive? (I have never used oav)


There has, but I’m away at Ohio meeting. I’ll try and remember to post next week.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Let me know the day that you no longer want to see the oav wands on the market. Maybe I
can come up with something for its replacement. The reason I did not follow through is that I
have other little bee experiment I want to do going the tf option now.


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## vtbeeguy (Jun 10, 2016)

Honest question here what is the point of being "treatment free" if to do so requires your insane method of removing capped brood a in winter and picking mites off by hand? You the beekeeper are killing the mites not the bees so what's the gain? You could get the same result putting in a couple apivar strips or an oav regiment. Just would be a lot easier on you it seems.
They're your bees so manage them however floats your boat but imo when you try giving your methods as "advice" to newbs on the forum you do damage to the credibility of the forum. Not trying to be harsh just honest.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Vt, all of what I do is just a little bee experiment to see what work or not in my local
area. Since this is an open forum I can post my findings here. The newbies don't know
anything about how destructive the mites are not yet until they go tf thinking that a package
can survive just by putting them inside a box. But when their hive crashed they wonder why and 
ask question on this forum. 

Many will think that without having the mite fighting bees that their hive can survive without any form of
treatment or using my method of removing the mites off the hive. I simply provide an alternative method that works if the
newbie insist on not treating to let the hive overrun by the mites. Is it damaging to the forum's credibility? Until there is another better organic method of removing the mites off the hives, I will let the newbies decide. Using my method I've achieved a 100% mite removal off my little nuc hives. Now I don't have to worry about their early Spring build up. Anything that don't give me a lot of headache on dealing with the mites is good enough to me. Besides, with plenty of time on my hands during our mild winter months, a little beekeeping to clear up the mites is what beekeeping is about to me.

So what is the point of picking mites off with a pair of tweezers? For me it is all about education of how the mites and bees interact inside the hives. I know that some beekeepers will squished the mite and bee when they spot it on their bees. For me the bees are precious so I just wanted to removed the mites with a tweezers and spare the bees. Also it is a good sampling method to do a mite count allowing me to know how many mites are inside. This is my way of monitoring the mites through out the 4 seasons. If one day the apivar strips don't work anymore, this is another method that we can use.

Regarding my oav and oap gadget, I've sourced local materials that are also available in the most poorest country in this world. They can also use what local materials they have to make my little gadget for the mite treatment. You see it only cost $3 dollars brand new or for free by finding local materials to make this little gadget once you have access to the information. It is so powerful and cheap to make one and yet so safe that the beekeeper don't even need to wear a gas respirator anymore. Now with this information, I feel that at anytime I can fire up an oav gadget when my method of mite removal does not work anymore. So far I'm free to experiment without worrying about the mites because I know how to deal with them at last thanks to my little oav/oap gadget invention. The mites used to drive me crazy and crashed my hives during early Spring time build up. Now I don't have this worry anymore! Anytime snl give me the green light I will reveal my little oav secret here just not trying to take his business away.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Randy Oliver has prepared a graphic that shows whole hive metabolism vs. ambient temperature.







The chart shows metabolic demand is at a minimum when ambient temperature is 5 C. (Why Canadian barn wintering bees are kept at near 5 C)
What is the Sacramento minimum temperature average








That's correct --- Sacramento temperature minimum is 5 C in December-January.

What happens if you "warm up" the hive by adding the heat equivalent of a kilogram of bees to the cluster --- 
Metabolic rate climbs --- the hive eats more. You starve the bees before they begin to brood up. 

Note that if the ambient temperature is negative 20 C -- a use case to warm the hive back toward 5 C can be made. A hive already at the metabolic minimum temperature (5 C) will become unstable if you warm it up. These are not kittens sleeping by the woodstove.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

What if when the hive is already 2-3 frame of bees and I feed them all winter long with syrup, patty subs and 
sugar bricks? This will not starve them at all. Will they grow more bees over this winter?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

beepro said:


> So what is the point of picking mites off with a pair of tweezers? For me it is all about education of how the mites and bees interact inside the hives. I know that some beekeepers will squished the mite and bee when they spot it on their bees. For me the bees are precious so I just wanted to removed the mites with a tweezers and spare the bees. Also it is a good sampling method to do a mite count allowing me to know how many mites are inside. This is my way of monitoring the mites through out the 4 seasons. If one day the apivar strips don't work anymore, this is another method that we can use


OMG, NO one is EVER going to think that picking mites off bees with tweezers is a VIABLE mite treatment method!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Hey, if you had spent _two years_ removing varroa with a _razor_, I can see that tweezers may be considered an upgrade ... 



beepro said:


> ... what I had observed in 2 years chasing after the mites with a small sharp razor blade.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Snl, the tweezers is for counting the mites instead of using a sticky board. How's that not possible to do a mite
sampling? No bees will die using this process. Just like a challenge before by others and Barry, it will force me to think of another 
method to make the oav more affordable and safer to treat. Now supplement heat is not new just that you have to make it more efficient and cheaper for all.

And the mite cap brood frame removal is an improvement in that I don't have to use the small razor to cut
up the mites anymore. I'll let the bees deal with this mite issue. From time to time I can still crushed the mites
using the small tweezers rather than the small razor blade. Next time I'll use a reversed tweezers instead!

It seems that nobody understand that the intention of raising the hive temp during the winter time is to get the
bees to raise more broods and supplement feeding inside the hive. I have plenty of food made ahead of time to
feed them. Over 100 lbs. of sugar bricks already tug away just for this winter. The improvement in Lauri's method has 
made mass production of the bricks possible using the mini homemade fridge incubator as a dehydrator. It speeds up the 
drying time and stuffing more bricks in there per batch. This experiment is to see how a 2-3 frame of bees can overwinter here. Many will throw away the 2-3 frame of bees thinking that they cannot save the hive. I'll show them that with supplement heat and feeding it can be done. No more mites to bother them. Around 83F and 90F they are happy as bees can be. Overwintering a small nuc hive is that simple!

Look of it this way, when the price per queen in the future increased for another $20 bucks, at 2 frame per nuc hive in a queen castle, let's see how many mated queens you can overwinter using these small cheap animal heat pads. By then I'll figure out another more efficient way to grow my nuc hives, all winter long. This little bee experiment is not over yet.


Here is the hive temp now:


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Cause killing mites by hand or propping a hive up/killing mites with manipulations, splits, drone traps, tweezers, brood removal, heat pads or what ever, some how props up poor genetics less then killing the same number of mites with "treatments" :lpf: ..
given those options... a few penny's of OAD/OAV seems a lot easier for the same net efect


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, unless you can come up with another much more simpler method of getting rid of the 
mites going tf, this is the most natural method available. I don't mind spending the time on it. Last year I used
7 nuc hives. This year only 2 for this little experiment to show the newbies that it can be done. Newbies always 
insisted on going tf anyways. My bee genetics is not poor they are from the resistant bees apiary and tf bees. It 
just so happens that our CA mites, once spread to other packages are more deadly type A than the type B mites. And we
have them here all right in my backyard. Going tf option, you must removed the mites!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Well, unless you can come up with another much more simpler method of getting rid of the
> mites going tf, this is the most natural method available.





> Going tf option, you must removed the mites


lol, killing mites by human intervention is killing mites by human intervention, net zero difference between tweezers or cems. You may be chemical free, but your not treatment free. 
Further more nothing in north america is "natural" when it comes to bees, its all man made. The whole point of beekeeping is to take bees from their natural state is to make them livestock and convert them to one that is beneficial to us.... agriculture vs hunter/gather. If you keep bees, your keeping for your reasons, not thiers.
natural beekeeping is a farce, honey hunting is the natural state
treatment free beekeping is a farce(short of honey hunting) yes there are chemical and non chemical ways but a treatment is a treatment.. be it splits, swarm control, sugar dusting, drone brood culling, small cell foundation, or organic acids...


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> The chart shows metabolic demand is at a minimum when ambient temperature is 5 C.


:thumbsup:
And the metabolic demand is not much more at 0 either.

Important at this time of year is to cool down hives, not warming up.

http://beecosy.com/bees-in-winter/


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, I'm doing it in another IPM method as it is called by not using any
acids. It is better than doing nothing to allow the hives to die like the newbie me before.

Cool down is for the snow country regions. We have mild winter here so instead of cool down I
want to see if heat up will give me more bees without the mites to interfere. To me both the cool down and
heat up method will work according to your local bee environment. If I'm in a snow country to keep bees then
it will be another set of method used not heating up the hives that much around 40F through out the winter.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

beepro said:


> We have mild winter here so instead of cool down I
> want to see if heat up will give me more bees without the mites to interfere. To me both the cool down and heat up method will work according to your local bee environment.


To cool tham down is more important in mild winter climates. 

Up here in north ambient temperatures make sure they will cool down, but in milder climates it is up to the beekeeping methods used.

It would be best in all regions to give the bees a brake. Brake from brood rearing is break from mites. Brake from foraging. The physiological condition of bees weakens if their metabolic rate is kept high with extra warming. Weaker physiological condition means they are weaker against mites.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

To answer the original question is 14 watts enough supplement heat the answer is it's to much. As Juhani stated you are weakening your bees and actually you are reducing their life span drastically. My climate is as mild as your's if not a tad bit milder 2 to 3 frames of bees can make it through our so called winter but will need a boost of nurse bees prior to spring to make it sometimes not but a lot of extra attention is needed. Pollen subs are not a good long term substitute for natural pollen it also will shorten the bees lives if that's all the protein they get.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Heck, Michael Palmer winters nucs in the St Albans, Vermont area. _Real winter conditions_! 

No heating at all (other than the bees' heat).


Michael Palmer said:


> Oh. Really? Near impossible? I've wintered thousands on 4 frames, and I think I'm in a snow region.


Yes, MP's are 4 frames, rather than 3 frames. No heat, just some top insulation.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Warming the hive, which will result in warming the colony within it, I predict will result in a rise in the reproduction of the colonies brood through the Winter, therefore also resulting in the rise in the production of more Varroa mites.

beepro, why don't you work on refrigerating hives instead. Keeping them at a constant cool temperature through the Winter which should lessen the Varroa mite reproduction.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Using my constant mite removal management method to get rid of the mites since the end of June, I have
no mites in there to worry about now. Zero mites!

That is why I dare to heat up the hives hoping to get more big fat winter bees. Besides, our mini-Autumn flow is
just getting started. The weather is still mild and the bees still collecting both nectar and pollen. It is good to know that
with higher metabolism the bees are taking care of their broods all winter long instead of being in a cluster. Because this is 
a first time little bee experiment in a single nuc hive, I have no worry if it fails this time. But if this is doable then I will winter more 2 framers with a mated late Autumn queen in a queen castle. There will be lots of mated queen for early Spring split before mated queens are available for sale to make more nuc hives. Heating up the hive to keep the mated queens might be a good solution other than banking them.
banking them.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

snl said:


> First you say you’ve mild winters, then you say you have cold winters. Do you know?



Now is the mild winter bee environment because things are still blooming. We have the bees working on the
canola, wild mustard, chickory, and Eucalyptus bloom now. Loquat trees are blooming in stages too. There are plenty for
the hard working bees since the daily high is still in the 60s. It will be a while before we see any real winter and 
rains here. 

In this environment the bees will never stop growing the hives all winter long. Unlike last year this year we have not
seen much rain yet. So the winter environment might last until mid-Dec. to see any effect on the bees. Still the night
time temp is colder than usual. But don't worry since my supplement heat is on all winter long to keep everything 
warm and cozy inside. The pics will show what is blooming at the moment. When others are prepping for the cold winter time, we're
just at the beginning of an early Autumn. I'm still preparing my planting beds for the fava beans and purple canola. With a mild
winter almost anything can be grown all winter long including the Borage and many cold season veggies. 
So how mild is it in our normal winter environment? For one the purple sweet potatoes tubers harvested this season still sending out new shoots.
So how cold is it going to be for our normal winter environment? Well, tonight will dip down into the low 40s. Don't worry though because the mustard greens and canola still hold.


Mild bee environment:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

An update: Day and night temp is holding constant.


We are having nice sunny days in the low 60s for at least another few weeks. Things are looking good inside
the dwindling small 2 frame of bees nuc hive. The day time temp is around 80F and night temp around 70F when the
small animal heaters are on all the time. Bees are taking advantage of the nice warm sunny day for a sunbathe too.
Over the next 2 weeks the remaining of the Oct laid cap broods should be all emerging. This will further replenish
the dwindling hive population somewhat. A very good sign that the hive is recovering well in population. No more mites to bother them either.

Seeing how effective the supplement heat is, I also ordered 2 more 100 watt small animal black light bulbs for backup 
just in case these heat pads do not hold up over the entire winter. When the temp dip down in to the 20s later on these little 
black light bulbs can really help too. Two temp probes are inside, one on the outer edge of the hive box between a drawn frame and the second one in the middle of the brood nest. Both have the same temp reading sometimes.

Still, my goal is to have a constant hive temp around 80F through out the entire winter! I don't like the 10 degree difference on the day and night time. Must have a more stable hive temp inside so that the heater bees don't have to adjust that much.



Night and day time temp:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I expect you to find that your colonies will try to cool things down if you try to keep the hive at 80 degrees. Where will your temperature sensor be located inside of the hive?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

A dwindling hive will have a hard time cooling down the hive. This way they don't have to
exert more energy to cool things down. Around that temp there will be no chill broods as a
cluster of bees inside temp will be around 94F. They will still be fine when temp reached 90F inside for a
short period of time. At 80F they will be in the upper box feeding with the brood nest in the middle box. The
temp probes will still be at the original location to monitor both the outer and inner brood nest temp. I have consistently monitor the hive situation since the start and post my findings here for the update until early Spring time again.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

At 80 degrees they will be eating a lot of honey and producing a lot of condensation via respiration. Better figure out how to aid ventilation.


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## Scottsbee (Jan 11, 2017)

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/understanding-colony-buildup-and-decline-part-13a/

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/understanding-colony-buildup-and-decline-part-13b/

Both of these links are great reading. Not sure if you've read them Beepro. If I understood correctly, it's likely thet your nuc will crash with dysentery.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Dups!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I use migratory hive cover with a 2" shim made out of dog ears fence panel. It is not 
seal off completely so that hive moisture can escape. I have also added a top empty box with
2 frames of drawn comb on the edge. Also put in 4 layers of Lauri's 2" sugar bricks on the top bars.
No moisture issue so far.

We still have 60 degree weather here. There is no issue with any bee diseases when they are allow
to fly when it is sunny outside. The bees are foraging on the Loquat trees starting to 
bloom now. They also have the wild mustard and canola to forage when it is not raining. Things are 
starting to green up with more rains in the forecast. Still have Cordovan drones flying here. Warm and cozy inside.
I'm starting a late Fall garden.

The constant mite management post has update on the bees and 20 watt heaters now!


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Interesting.

Sometimes it is good to think in a relational method. Honeybees were created to (among other things) pollinate flowers.
You say your starting a fall garden - which means your area will have good growing weather for at least what 45 days (whatever the minimal production time would be)? So if flowers are naturally available then rationally the bees are also active. From this I would surmise that the bees do not need supplemental heat.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beepro said:


> Using my constant mite removal management method to get rid of the mites since the end of June, I have
> no mites in there to worry about now. Zero mites!


:banana: 
:banana: 
:banana:

Congratulations, beepro!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

MikeJ said:


> Interesting....From this I would surmise that the bees do not need supplemental heat.



Mike, I'm trying to save a dwindling nuc hive before the arctic chills hit later on in the real winter. Right now I have to try to build up this nuc hive's population before it is too late. Luckily, our mini-Autumn flow is still on now. The Loquat trees are just starting to bloom providing nectar and pollen for these big fat winter bees to forage. I know 2000 new bees added isn't that much. But every bits count as the next wave of new bees will arrive soon which will futher add on to the population since winter bees can live up to 6 weeks or more here over this winter. Already I saw 3 mini cap brood patches today on a hive check. These are without the mites in them. I cannot stay out of the hive in a nice warm sunny day like this without making sure that no more mites are in there. Finally I have a peace of mind! Wasn't so sure 2 months before. 

The queen is the one making the decision now trying to make the foragers stay inside longer. But with warmer than usual winter climate we're having here, it is hard to make the mature foragers stay in. They would rather go out foraging instead that will have an effect on the entire colony especially the cap brood and open larvae. Whatever I've done so far is what I can do now to let nature take its course. 

JWC, I know you are just being sarcastic about go big or go home remark. On after thought, I know how your minds work now. So I bought 2 100 watt small ceramic black light bulbs used for the lizards in aquarium. They do sell them online thanks to your inspiration. They arrived today to be install inside this small nuc hive on a temp controller. After knowing the bees like their hive temp constant at around 83F during the winter time and my 20 watt is too low temp, I have to make the day and night temp stable enough so the heater bees don't have to work anymore. Maybe this is another method to keep the winter bees living longer. Because I've read that hard working bees will shorten their lifespan. This concept can also be applied to the heater bees and bees in general as well inside the hive. Bottom line is don't make the bees work too hard by helping them to control their hive temp too over this winter. I'll try not to confused everybody if we can all somehow don't have too many scattered thoughts (posting.) You're lucky that I can manage 7 things at one time without getting too confused about it.



2 small 100 watt black lizard bulbs:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Dups!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

After the 100 watt bulb is installed today I've been adjusting the temp on the
controller all day long. Knowing how the bees like a warm surface on the heat pads before, I also
installed a window screen to cover the hot light bulb. Don't want any fry bees!
At first the controller was set at LB = 80F and HB = 85.5F, that was too hot for
the hive sending the probes reading at 75F and 85F. At one time the internal brood nest reading was at
86F. This was too hot for the hive as they like it between 82-83F during the winter. Then I have to set the controller again at LB=70F and HB = 75.5F now. Found out that the drawn comb in the hive have lots of heat retention value. Once they absorbed the heat from the 100 watt bulb and small heat pads running a bit on the high side, it will take them more than 3 hours to lower the hive temp a few degree.

Now the internal brood nest is around 85.6F and the external brood nest probe reading at 70.7F which is somewhat within their normal range to their liking. I'm sure the hive temp will lower as night time set in as we're having an overcast today and raining at times. The bees seem to be dry (no moisture issue) and very content munching on the homemade high protein patty subs and sugar bricks all warm and cozy inside. The hive entrance is still at one bee space opening. It seems like the additional heat will take away any hive moisture either the active bees have clear it or it never has a chance to form. So added heat = a dry hive inside. Hardly any bees flying in a cloudy and rainy day which is good. The more they stay in the more broods and larvae they can care for.



Installed 100 watt bulb:


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Just a caution. With all your heat sources, wax, and wood - there is potential for fire.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beepro said:


> The more they stay in the more broods and larvae they can care for.


You say that even though the foraging bees are not nurse bees. So why do you say that?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Facing a dwindling hive situation, any bees that stay inside they will cluster on the
cap broods. They don't wonder around the empty hive space. When the foragers are 
out there is a drop in hive temp. Once the foragers are back at night time the temp went
up again. This is very interesting finding. 

I'm sure some young foragers will revert back being nurse bees when there is no more bees to
care for the larvae. The queen is still laying no matter what. The heaters will stabilized the hive
temp while the foragers are out because the queen cannot control them that much. Around 80F with
ventilation there isn't enough heat for a combustion. No fire unless the heater touch the comb or is
too hot inside above 100F. This light bulb is suspended with a small piece of stick not touching the comb or any hive part. 
The small animal heat pads already been in use for 2 weeks without any potential fire hazardous issue. They're safe for small animal everyday use. I sourced parts designed for small animals.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

An update: Stable temperature is achieved- 83.1F is the magic number


Yesterday and today is a rainy day. The night time temp is around 55F. At this temp there is a likely chance of having a chilled broods situation if there isn't enough bees to cover the broods. I don't think this hive will make it without the heaters. All bees stay in for the day munching on the high protein patty subs, sugar bricks and warm syrup on the top bars. I manage to sneak a peek inside the hive at noon time. Warm air rushed out as I opened the hive top cover. Surprisingly, there were many foragers munching on the nectar and pollen on the 2 side frames in the top nuc box. Basically the brood nest is surrounded by nectar and pollen frames in all level of the 3 nuc boxes. The 100 watt light bulb did not melt any comb. It helps to stabilized the brood nest temp much faster than what the 20 watt heat pads can do alone. The 20 watt heat pads cannot stabilize the hive temp that fast and keep it at a constant 83.3F. Thanks to Carlson for giving me such a good hint that I quickly acted on. The 2nd light bulb will be a spare just in case.

Currently, the brood nest temp reading is at 83.1F almost at a constant and the outside brood nest probe reading is at 76.6F, almost constant too. I set the controller at LB = 83F and UP = 85.5F. As night set in, there is a slight drop in the brood nest temp to 82.3F and the outside brood nest probe reading at 77.7F even though I have raised the controller temp a bit. I'll let it stay this way for a few days unless there is a dip in night time temp. 

I suspect that the rise in outside brood nest temp will affect the internal brood nest temp a bit by .8 degree. What if the outside brood nest temp is 83F constant by raising the controller temp, will the internal brood nest temp drop even more that the heater bees don't light up anymore? Are there any internet literature or study that I can read up on this subject?

Both night the right side of the hive entrance sponge got rip out by either a rat or an opossum. Maybe it can sense that the hive is warmer inside than outside. I replaced it with a larger piece of sponge tonight and put a piece of stepping stone next to the sponge. Hoping that whatever is bothering the hive will leave the sponge alone this time. The bees can still fetch water from the soaked sponges on the entrance if they need to. I've been using sponges to block the hive entrance for 3 seasons without any bee issue. Having the sponge removed last night did not cause a temp drop inside the hive. Because the comb did a very good job on heat retention and stabilizing the hive temp a bit. Maybe some pics after the rain has stop.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Update: Cold into the 40s tonight!


It is really cold out there tonight in the 40s. But no frost yet. Temp has dipped so much from last week at
night time. I went out to take a reading on the temp probes. Since it is colder in the night time now I
also set the controller at LB = 83F and UB = 85F hoping that the hive will stay around 80F constant. 
Right now the brood nest reading is at 77.3F and outside brood nest probe temp at 75.3F. It was very
different from one week ago when the outside hive temp was still in the mid-50s at night. When it
gets colder later in Dec. or when the arctic chills hit I will further adjust the controller to maintain the hive
temp inside. At 77F inside I don't think they will get the chilled broods while the bees are munching on the pollen and nectar. I also put aluminum tapes on the hive entrance sponges to deter the rat or opossum from digging the sponge out. The foragers are a bit confused at first but eventually they find their way in the hive.



Night temp reading in 40s outside:


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Here just above freezing point for several weeks. Perfect condition for wintering. No heating, no upper ventilation. CO2 consentration raises and bees are near hiberation and keep this way their best condition until spring comes. 
Warming up from these temps will make them consume more and cause unnecessary wearing, stress and worst of all, if the genes are from souther areas, brood rearing.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Here just above freezing point for several weeks. Perfect condition for wintering. No heating, no upper ventilation. CO2 consentration raises and bees are near hiberation and keep this way their best condition until spring comes.
> Warming up from these temps will make them consume more and cause unnecessary wearing, stress and worst of all, if the genes are from souther areas, brood rearing.


If you are right about that I have some hopes because it´s the coldest november we have for years, -5 to +2 °C and snow today.
No heating, no upper ventilation, no disturbing. Closed floors. Do you agree?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Just be sure there no water condensation if you have reduced entrance.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

This year is a very good beekeeping year for me!

Just that you know, I'm doing the opposite of the snow country beekeeping here.
Close to the Holidays! Lots of eating, brood rearing and a max hive temp in the 80s at a comfortable bee level. They like it around 80F during the winter time when it is really cold outside at night time. Sunny or raining, they will still be on the pollen and 
nectar frames all winter long. No dysentery so far because the weather is still sunny in between rainy days.  They have send out more foragers going for the Loquat flowers and wild mustard green on a sunny day here.

All this nice weather in the 60s why not let them enjoy more instead of locking them inside all winter long. If this experiment is successful (which it will) there will be an increase in 2 frames of solid bees before early mid-Jan. of next year. This is also the time for the new solstice according to my queens anyway to expand their laying capability in our mild bee environment while the rest of the snow country is still covered with snows. Imagine what a normal full size hive will do using this method of overwintering here in the long run. Instead of using little nuc hives, after the mites are under control sell off the queens and consolidate the hives under one healthy queen to overwinter. A double queens winter hive set up using your method is quite possible too. Any overwintering method you can use as long as the bees are warm and actively growing inside. This is one option to consider.

I just put in a half pint of syrup for them today. They're very happy now all warm and cozy acting like it is still early Spring time. During the winter they will be comfortable between 70F and 80F. In an ever expanding hive everyday, new bees emerged, more new eggs laid, more cap broods and open larvae that are healthy now. All system go! 



Happily munching away today (top box):


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## souficoufi (Dec 10, 2016)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I don't believe bees need to bee heated in winter. Heating them is just asking for problems.


Oui! les abeilles vont croire que le temps est beau dehors.Elles vont sortir et se faire tuer par le froid glacial.Je ne suis pas avec l'idée du chauffage de la ruche,c'est un danger.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

souficoufi said:


> Oui! les abeilles vont croire que le temps est beau dehors.Elles vont sortir et se faire tuer par le froid glacial.Je ne suis pas avec l'idée du chauffage de la ruche,c'est un danger.


Yes, you are correct. That is exactly what will happen.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My main concern is shortening the lives of the bees, but it will confuse them somewhat as to the seasons. It will not, though, cause them to fly out when it's cold, in my experience. I usually have an observation hive in my living room and have not seen that to be a problem in winter despite the house (and the colony) being 70 F or so. The problem is the shortened lives of the bees at those temps.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Thank you Michael for answering half of my question before I asked it. I was wondering how observation hives fared being indoors and all. Since Beepro's goal is to keep a very small nuc laying until it builds up enough bees, I wonder whether gradually reducing the heat once he is up to three full frames of bees would capture the best of both worlds.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> My main concern is shortening the lives of the bees, but it will confuse them somewhat as to the seasons. It will not, though, cause them to fly out when it's cold, in my experience. I usually have an observation hive in my living room and have not seen that to be a problem in winter despite the house (and the colony) being 70 F or so. The problem is the shortened lives of the bees at those temps.


Well his bees can fly most days during his "winter"... so... This reminds me of WLC's soybean experiment where he planted one plant each of like three soybeans and put them on a rooftop in NYC and then tried to draw nectar making and bee attractiveness "data" based on his observations. None of WLC's experiments made any sense and neither does this.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

duplicate


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Well his bees can fly most days during his "winter"... 

Probably true. He doesn't really have winter other than shorter days. The coldest weather there would rate as "late spring" here or "early fall". We wouldn't call it winter...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jwcarlson said:


> This reminds me of WLC's soybean experiment ...


Dang. I haven't thought about him in ages. He probably hasn't thought about me either.


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