# How to move a hive 10 feet?



## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I would just move it 10 feet. I have never had bees not find their hive when it was that close. Some will fly around the old spot for a while, but they seem to figure it out.

I have heard that you can leave a hive body at the old spot and then take them to their hive in the evening, but I would just let them look around for it.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Sorry. Somehow it was posted twice.

[ May 02, 2006, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: beedeetee ]


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## SantaCruzBee (Apr 23, 2004)

I also need to move a couple of hives about ten feet. What I'm wondering is what is the best time of day, early morning or late afternoon when most of the bees are in, or is any random time acceptable?


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

The best time is when the bees are in the hive.Also put some tree branch in front of the entrance,so the bees need to orientate when flying in and out of the hive.It is supposed that this will help them find the hive on the new place.
There is a web site depicting using a piece of glass in front of the entrance,it is simmilar to the branch metod.The person who uses this says it is 100% succsesful metod.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is there an instant way to do that?

Yes. Move it and put a branch in front of the entrance to trigger reorientation. Don't forget the branch, or they will all fly back to the old location.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmoving.htm


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## Tom Chaudoir (Nov 20, 2005)

It worked!

I waited for the bees to pack in for the night, then stuffed the entrance with a wad of grass. My buddy and I carried the hive to the new location. Instead of a single branch I used a bunch of leafy twigs, perhaps a foot long and stuck them into the ground right in front of the entrance.

When I checked the next morning the grass still wasn't cleared out. I pulled the plug and watched. The girls came out and noticed the new landscape. They left the hive backwards, looking back. After some zigs and zags all around they had a new map and flew off to work.

Thanks!


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

For moving a mere 10 feet, I would have just moved them and plopped them down at the new location any old time of day. No need to bother helping them orient, this is a very short distance and they will smell and locate the new location very quickly. Bees are not as stupid as we tend to give them credit for.


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## Tom Chaudoir (Nov 20, 2005)

Hi Joe,

I should have said this before. Sorry.

My first shot was to move them 3 feet back, and 2 to the side, while keeping the entrance pointed at the same compass point. I did it during a warm afternoon. Then I sat back and watched.

Pretty soon there were a lot of bees flying around where the old position should have been. Many were leaving the hive but none were coming back. That was bad news since this is the weakest of my 2 hives.

I moved the hive right. It was now back 3 feet, but straight back. They found it.

I left it there for a couple of days before moving it to it's final position. It's my opinion that if I had just moved the hive without regard, the hive would have become even weaker. Now it's thriving.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Pretty soon there were a lot of bees flying around where the old position should have been.

Tom,

I'm assuming here you are probably talking of a short time frame of less than one hour. Give them time, they will figure it out. 

No need to panic when you see some bees flying trying to orientate, this is natural. I see it all the time when feral colonies in trees that fall or cut, and in moving hives. 

Only time you need to take action is IF they land in that spot and remain. When they are flying, this means they are in the process of figuring it out. Its SCARRY for a human or a beekeeper to see this happening, but this is a natural process of problem solving for disorientated bees.

The branch folklore, I will put to rest later this year with an experiment


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The branch folklore, I will put to rest later this year with an experiment

That sounds like a fair unbiased approach.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

>The branch folklore, I will put to rest later this year with an experiment

In the mean time do the right thing as Michael has suggested and assist the bees in re-orienting by placing a branch in front of the hive.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Anyone know how to get an elephant into a refrigerator?

Waya


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, put a peanut in the refrigerator.

Do you know what time it is when an elephant sits on your fence?

Do you know how to get down off of an elephant?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

no need to wait till later this year
you don't even need to move the hive
just put a branch in front of the entrance and in a few minutes you'll see them start to re-orient

Dave

Waya,
ya need a shoe horn for that


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--In the mean time do the right thing as Michael has suggested and assist the bees in re-orienting by placing a branch in front of the hive.

In the popularity contest we call discussion lists,,, If it makes one feel good, go ahead and do it. But ya better get proper specs of what size branch will work and the type, maybe a Sassafras might not work as well as a Maple.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Do you know what time it is when an elephant sits on your fence?

Time for a new fence?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What goes, George? Layed off already?








You didn't cut the joint up side down now, did ya?

Oops, sorry. Off topic.

I'll have to give this tree limb idea sometime. I usually move colonies miles rather than feet. And when I do I set them where they are going to stay for about 6 months.

But I can see where one with only two hives in his/her back yard might need to move a colony a short distance and wouldn't want to or be able to move the colony to another location 3 plus miles away.

[ May 11, 2006, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: sqkcrk ]


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

George,
for getting the elephant in the fridge, I just open the door, put in the elephant, close the door....
Do you know how to get a girraff in a fridge?

I'm guessing that, when an elephant sits on your fence, it's time for a new fence?

As for getting down off an elephant, do you use a lint brush?

Waya


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh, come on you can't get down off of an elephant. You get down off of a goose.









How do you get a giraffe in a fridge?


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Oops, sorry. Off topic.

Waya started it with his brilliant non-sequitor, the trouble maker. What do elephants have to do with moving bee hives?

That's not a joke by the way, so don't try and answer it.

What really struck me as funny was Joe saying "Bees are not as stupid as we tend to give them credit for." I'm not as stupid as most people give me credit for either









Still got my job. Haven't had an opportunity to screw up yet. Give me time. I'm not as incompetent as most people give me credit for









George-


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

May you rise to a level just below incompetent.

I think I said that correctly. Hmm.?


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>You get down off of a goose.

What are you doing on a goose?


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Now George, Waya and Mark!

You stop that arguing!









See how arguments start! You are thinking outside the box again making obsurd comments!








Beekeeping has well defined limits and parameters must not be crossed.
Don't be so controversial!









Three trouble makers! (Joe creating a diversion while he sneaks out the side door,,,) LOL


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Three trouble makers!

More like the Three Stooges









I'm still trying to figure out how one mounts an elephant in the first place.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"Beekeeping has well defined limits and parameters must not be crossed."

You better tell the bees.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

You mount an elephant on a Very large board on the side of your house. However, remember, elephant hunting is illegal in the continental U.S.

Of course, when I've mounted an elephant, it was after giving her the command to kneel down. Then I just stepped on her front leg and threw my body up to her shoulders. Getting off was the reverse.

For putting a giraff into a fridge, I open the door, pull out the elephant, put in the giraff, and close the door.

For moving a hive 10 feet, I pick up the hive and move it 10 feet and set it down. I do put grass or something in the entrance to "disorient" the bees. Something works, I don't know if it's the grass or the bees.

So the Lion called for an assembly of animals. All of the animals attended except one. Which one was missing?
Waya


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

The giraffe (he was in the fridge)


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

"Beekeeping has well defined limits and parameters must not be crossed."

--You better tell the bees.

The bees would understand that I was being sarcastic. Bees do after all have a great sense of humor.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Joe Writes:
>The branch folklore, I will put to rest later this year with an experiment

--That sounds like a fair unbiased approach. 
Writes Michael Bush

Always good to ask an expert when there is disagreement of opinions on these lists...









I got an unbiased opinion about the branch folklore from an expert in the field that has studied orientation, homing, and navigation in honeybees. He states I can imagine that it will help if the bees had experienced this branch for a while (a few days) at the olad place, because it will give them a target to search for when the hive has been moved. 

So he is saying by placing a branch or other object in front of the colony a few days before hand, the bees will learn that landmark, and then when the land mark is moved with the bees they will be able to orientate to the new location better by using this landmark. 

Dear Mr. Waggle, I have not heared about such a procedure but I can imagine that it will help if the bees had experienced this branch for a while (a few days) at the olad place, because it will give them a target to search for when the hive has been moved. Randolf Menzel 
******************************************* 
Prof. Dr. Randolf Menzel 
Freie Universität Berlin 
Institut für Biologie - Neurobiologie 
Königin-Luise-Str. 28/30 
D - 14195 Berlin 

Von: J. Waggle [mailto:[email protected]]
Gesendet: Fr 12.05.2006 01:51
An: menzel
Betreff: Honeybee Navigation Question

Dear Prof. Menzel,

Was reading your facinating manuscript on honeybee
navigation. A question comes to mind, many beekeepers
here in the USA recommend placing a branch in front of
a colony when relocating the hive short distances such
as a few meters to help them orientate.

Does this really help, is it really necessary? Or
will they orientate fine without the branch?

Thank you very much for your time.

Very Best Regards,

Joe Waggle
Beekeeper
Pennsylvania, USA

[ May 12, 2006, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Great thought pervoking discussion!
I have an idea for a test!

Mike contends that the colony will notice a change of location by placing a branch in front of the moved colony and be orientated to the new location by means of the branch.

I contend that when a colony is moved a short distance, the bees will visit the previous location and eventually figure it out. And for a few weeks, old field bees will continue to return to the direction of the old location due to the imbedded homing instinct and then zip over to the new location when they get near and notice the colony is not at this location. 

I propose this experiment:

I will try and find time to do it later this season.

* Move a colony 10 feet a night.
* Place a branch in front of the hive.
* And place a hive with a frame of brood at the previous location of the hive.


If Mikes tree branch idea really works, then you would expect the bees to go to the new location and NOT enter the box with brood that was placed at the original hive location.


If what I say occurs, then you will see the empty hive with one frame of brood filling up with returning bees that are still orientated to their original location and were visiting that location first.

[ May 12, 2006, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Bees do after all have a great sense of humor. 

Less of a sense of humor than we give them credit for









>So he is saying by placing a branch or other object in front of the colony a few days before hand, the bees will ’learn that landmark’

This is only suggesting that bees remember the look of their hive and any distinguishing characteristics such as color or geometric patterns (or branches) would work the same way. It doesn't explain reorientation when the hive is moved, especially if the "landmark" itself (the branch) is moved with the hive. It suggests only that the bees will search for "their" hive based on it's appearance, or odor, not it's location.

This appears NOT to be the way it works. Bees appear to search for the location of their hive somewhat irrespective of it's appearance. I've moved a hive 2 feet and seen bees piling up in front of the old location, even though their hive with it's unique appearance and odor was right beside the old location. Granted, it didn't take them long to figure it out, but there was temporary confusion because their hive wasn't exactly where it was supposed to be. I've also swapped hive locations and seen field bees blissfully entering a different hive simply because it occupied the location of their old home.

>I propose this experiment:

I'll have to ponder this.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

<In the popularity contest we call discussion lists>

Pcolar, you must havethis list confused with your online dating service. If you're vieing for popularity here you need to shift gears. Most of the folks who come her come here to share the best information they have. We all know something, we all have something to learn. I'm confident you've seen me have seen me take Michael and others to task on issues we disagree on and them, me. Part of being objective and positve to open debate, the single best learning tool here. I won't take any offense at your implication I respond to posts based on popularity as opposed to experiance and knowlege, apparrently you have some other issues.

As far as experiments go I think the concept of a successful experiment, as Michel eluded to, is to do it with and neutral attitude to help achieve accurate results. I find it a wonderment though that you, unless your a scientist, would need to conduct further experiments to prove what the Mystery "expert in the field" has apparrently already proven. ( is he friends with Ruth by chance?)
As far as bees being smarter or stupid and what credit we give them you need to talk to your "Mystery Researcher" and ask him what the cognitive reasoning ability of bees is and let us know how he responds. 
I understand your point about bees re-orienting to a hive in excess of 2 feet away. When we move a yard of 200 of so hives in daylight hours we load hives and returning filed bees will usually keep re-orienting to any hive they can find until the last hive loaded is, well loaded with bees. We intentionally load the strong hives 1st. to take advantage of this equalization. I think the point with the branch is it causes the bees to meet an obstacle upon leaving and changes there "perspective" on location. If you've ever stood in the normal flight path of hive or parked a truck or something else in flight path of hive you see returning bees orienting on the object due to the obstruction which wasn't there the other 300 times they developed there flight patterns. I have also seen a hive moved 10 feet and found bees sitting on the old hive stand in the morning as a hobbyist. We leave many field bees behind when we move hives as well. 
Good luck with your popularity contest though.

[ May 12, 2006, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>no need to wait till later this year
you don't even need to move the hive
just put a branch in front of the entrance and in a few minutes you'll see them start to re-orient

Precisely.

>Dear Mr. Waggle, I have not heared about such a procedure...

Interesting since it's in every version of ABC XYZ of Beeculture I have.

>If Mikes tree branch idea really works, then you would expect the bees to go to the new location and NOT enter the box with brood that was placed at the original hive location.

>If what I say occurs, then you will see the empty hive with one frame of brood filling up with returning bees that are still orientated to their original location and were visiting that location first.

Very few things are all one thing or another. If you can force the bees to orient before they fly off then they have a mental note of the old location. If they don't reorient they have no idea where they left from. What I would expect is that if you did your experiment with a control (one without the branch at all) the one without the branch will have virtually all the field bees return to the old site with the brood comb there, while the one with the bransh will have less. But many of those that returned to the old location, had there NOT been brood, would have quickly flown to the new location. Without the branch they do ever widening circles for most of the day until they find it. I have done both and watched the results many times.

There are a huge number of circling bees without the branch and very few with it.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<an expert in the field that has studied orientation, homing, and navigation in honeybees. He states I can imagine that it will help if the bees had experienced this branch for a while at the olad place, because it will give them a target to search for when the hive has been moved. >>

In this scenario, how will the branch help at all? How is a branch a BETTER target than the hive?


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

I see an episode of Mythbusters in the making!!

Waya


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

George writes:
--It suggests only that the bees will search for "their" hive based on it's appearance, or odor, not it's location.

Ok great!! We got one no branch supporter here!








This supports that the branch is not needed!!!


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Joel writes:
--you need to talk to your "Mystery Researcher" and ask him what the cognitive reasoning ability of bees is and let us know how he responds.

Menzel has done his fair share of research, not need to interrogate. 
http://www.bbaw.de/pbl/menzelrandolf2001.html

--I think the point with the branch is it causes the bees to meet an obstacle upon leaving and changes there "perspective" on location.

That it may. But why then if this is such a successful method, beekeepers arent using this branch method to make up mating nucs etc. to solve drifting problems? I was on the phone last evening with a commercial beekeeper in the mid west that was mentioning problems with drifting nucs. Can we find a single commercial beekeeper that can attest to this method without a hearsay or as you might call mystery friend of a friend that is having success with it? If it is so successful, then why arent they using it? Thats all I ask.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Dear
Spkcrk, Wayacyote, Pa Pete, George, Joel, Michael, Dcross
And others who may want to join in ganging up on me.
















I am enjoying the discussion!

--->
Mr Michael Bush wrote:
--put a branch in front of the entrance and in a few minutes you'll see them start to re-orient

--it's in every version of ABC XYZ of Beeculture I have.
--->

I might be ready to make a deal.









I looked and can not find the evidence in my ABC XYZ to support the claim of this reference that Michael says exists. Please provide a page number for this reference if it exists.

I will give you time to provide the reference, if it is there is one to be found in ABC XYZ 
I will concede on this subject. 

All I can find is a reference that supports my claim that no branch is needed for a short distance move. The below quote from ABC XYZ supports my advice that the original poster Tom Chaudoir can move a hive the 10 feet in a single move, without the branch.

Bee Culture Page 325
MOVING BEES SHORT DISTANCES-

,,,A second choice is to move a colony, or colonies, two to four yards, each day,,, 

Best Wishes,

[ May 12, 2006, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>This supports that the branch is not needed!!!

I am a branch-supporter! Next you'll be telling me that it's "odor alone all along"









I put 3/4" imrie shims on all my hives last fall for head space and ventilation- I drilled a 1/2" hole in the corner of each one.

Well, they worked fine and when spring arrived, the 1/2" holes became really popular. When I finally removed the shims a few weeks ago, there were huge traffic jams of bees hunting for the hole, as I knew there would be. They'd festoon around the corner and big clumps of them would fall to the landing board. I ended up reversing the inner covers so the notch was down and eventually the bees "discovered" the entrance 8" to the right of where the 1/2" hole had been and they're using it now, but it took a couple of days. Clearly the bees were homing in on the exact location of where the hole used to be. For the halibut, I flipped one of the shims over instead of removing it, putting the 1/2" hole on the opposite corner. Predictably, the bees ignored it.

>If it is so successful, then why aren’t they using it? That’s all I ask.

Surely you see the flaw in that argument! The "if it worked, they'd be doing it" just doesn't hold water. Take small cell beekeeping for example. If it worked, why aren't the commercial guys doing it?


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## Jim Williamson (Feb 16, 2006)

>>George says: I am a branch-supporter!

Careful, George. You might wind up on some NSA computer printout. Just because Janet's long gone doesn't mean they're not still after those Davidians. Uh oh. Did everyone else computer just hiccup, or just mine? 

BOT (back on topic). Imirie designed his shim to be 3/4", knowing it violated beespace. He maintains that, if you use it "right", burr comb won't be a problem. He says to use it only when you have supers on and place it between the top brood box and the first box of drawn comb. Add another shim between the second and third box of drawn comb (never with foundation). He also says that most problems are due to folks using it for purposes he did not intend, which was to relieve brood nest congestion only.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--you don't even need to move the hive
just put a branch in front of the entrance and in a few minutes you'll see them start to re-orient

Hoping for some open minds here. 
If one turns the hive around, you will see this same type of flying in front of the point where the entrance no longer exists. If the hive is removed or any obstacle placed in front of the colony will be cause for the same type of flying. I believe that what we may be describing in these cases is actually confusion and not orientation, because why would a bee orientate to a place where the hive or entrance no longer exists?

This was illustrated at a bee meeting when the inspector stood in front of the entrance and immediately, there was a back up in air traffic with bees piling up in the air by the hundreds. He explained it simply as a back up in air traffic. The inspector mentioned these bees were confused by him standing in front of the hive, and would enter as soon as he stepped aside or would find a way around him. This can also be seen when you pass by a colony with a riding mower, the bees in front of the hive doing orientation flights will sometimes get confused and follow the mower for a short distance, it probably doesnt mean that they have orientated to the mower.

[ May 12, 2006, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--am a branch-supporter!

You tree trunk!









I know you George, you are attempting to add mass confusion into the discussion.








I am very familiar with this style of humor. 

I'm not buying it, you wont fluster me, I understand it is the evil humor inner person speaking and not your true feelings. You are speaking in humor arent you?,,, If not, your pissing me off!!!







LOL


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

where's "Prickly Pear" when you need her  

Joe,
what are we talking about here?
is there some dispute that putting a branch in front of the entrance of a hive causes re-orientation?
I don't need a textbook or a "bee scientist" to figure this out
I can see it in my backyard
it's obvious to me
perhaps you have a different opinion
what do we want to achieve when we move a hive 10 feet?
I think we want them to figure out the hive has moved
now, I suspect you're correct and they will eventually figure it out on there own, but why wouldn't we want to give em a hint that something has changed?
it's not like putting a branch in front of the entrance is a lot of labor or costs us money
I don't quite get your argument
(in the interest of full disclosure, I've never moved a hive 10 feet)
Dave

BTW, in another thread, someone was talking about putting 11 frames in a 10 frame box
I wanted to post a link to a picture of what I've heard refered to as "waggle positioning"
I assume this was your idea
it's a really good one
do you have a link to some pictures??

[ May 12, 2006, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Here's what I'm going to try this weekend to see if it is the branch or not.

I'm going to put a branch in front of my strongest hive and leave it there all day. 

Then the next day, I'll move the branch 200 yards away. If the bees settle on the branch at its new location, then we'll know, won't we.

Just to make it a blind test, I'm going to hide the branch is a shrubbery and blindfold the neighbor's dog. 

Waya

[ May 12, 2006, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: wayacoyote ]


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Waya,

that's just silly
it's obvious the bee's will use the "honeybee dance language" to send the workers to the location of the branch









Dave


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>You tree trunk!

Once again I find myself out on a limb without a paddle. Can I offer you an olive branch?


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--where's "Prickly Pear" when you need her 

I dont know this person. Aint she the waggle dance nay sayer, or streeker poo pooer or something? 
Hive orientation aint her thing.

She would be interested to see my swarm finding queen experiment where it seemed to support Seeleys streaker theory. The swarm flew the wrong way due an obstruction (tree) that inhibited the swarms ability to see streakers flying west, and only permitted vision of streekers in the easterly segment of their streak. In affect, streekers seem to pull the swarm in the direction of travel and this I believe might be why the swarm went east for a short distance. 

--but why wouldn't we want to give em a hint that something has changed?
--I don't quite get your argument

I Havent been able to find a proper reference that stated it was needed to do this when moving colonies. The assumption here is that the orientation of the bees is attributed to the branch in front of the hive which I do not believe is so, and I just cant see a reason to perpetuate an idea that really has no basis in need or fact. The lack of a hive at the original location and change of landmarks at the new would probably be enough hint that something has changed.

--I don't quite get your argument

Well, should we continue to teach not to eat bananas before working hives because it mimics the alarm pheromone when we know now that this is not true? Do we take an extreme liberal feel good POV and let the information perpetuate itself because it really doesnt hurt to think this? Do we allow proponents of the banana theory to defend the banana argument without out question or merit? Then we might have folks attributing a gentile hive to the fact that they didnt eat bananas. Same as trees will suffer unnecessary cutting top provide branches, so will the banana growers suffer due to beekeepers refusal to eat bananas, and I wont allow this to happen to our banana growing friends in South America.

I realize I have written enough material above for George and the other jokers to have fun with. LOL Try and do something with it! I cant wait to hear all the smarty pants banana jokes. 

--BTW, in another thread, someone was talking about putting 11 frames in a 10 frame box
I wanted to post a link to a picture of what I've heard refered to as "waggle positioning"
I assume this was your idea
it's a really good one do you have a link to some pictures??

I havent tested it yet so I cant promote the idea. The intent was to be able to change the comb space to 1 ¼ inch to promote small cell drawing, Thinking here was that maybe because AHB had a comb space at 1 ¼ and draws small cell, it would encourage smaller drawing in standard equipment without having to cut your frames, then the hive can be repositioned for normal spacing after the cells were drawn out. Heres a pic, but there are still problems to be worked out here, I really dont trust this idea just yet. 

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/naturebee/detail?.dir=1b05&.dnm=9bba.jpg&.src=ph

Enjoyed your questions Dave! thanks


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I will give you time to provide the reference, if it is there is one to be found in ABC XYZ
I will concede on this subject. 

I did not find it in ABC XYZ since it's not in the moving bees section, maybe it was in some other odd place or maybe it was in some other old book. I can remember the picture of the hive with the branch in front of it. I will search more for that one. But here's a prelimiary which proves the concept is not mine and has been around for some time:

"It is possible to accomplish a short move quickly by carrying the colony to the desired location late in the day after the bees have quit flying. A board should be leaned against the front of the hive so the bees will be confused by this obstruction the next day and will mark the new place." The Hive and the Honey Bee 1975 Extensively revised edition Pg 384 second paragraph of the section "How to Move Bees"

[ May 13, 2006, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Michael Bush ]


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Hey, I've SEEN the picture of the hive with a branch in front of it, I think. Seems like it was a Marine Beehive. Didn't it also have a ghilie suit on? 

Some beekeeper is out there wondering where his hive got off to. Little does he know it's sneaking up on him. LOOK OUT FOR THE SHRUBBERY.

Waya


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## Jim Williamson (Feb 16, 2006)

A SHRUBBERY????? Nih! Nih!


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{Can we find a single commercial beekeeper that can attest to this method} 

Joe, the answer is probably no. We split our hives to as many as 5 or 6 and arrange them in a circle for reorientation into 5 frame nuc boxes. About the middle a split day there are tens of thousands of bees in yard reorienting. The all seem to work it out. We aim at having all the nuc boxes the same style to avoid hive recognition and then adjust the distance from the orginal location by watching the returning field bees and making certain the field bees are reorienting and some entering all the hives.

Old myths die hard, it seems the conclusion may turn out to be the branch causes re-orientation but isn't necessary. Thanks for the link, it's appreciated. 

Jim, of course you have given away your advanced years by giving us a quote only a flying cirucs fan would remember from 30 yrs ago! Of course I can't not laugh when I think of the Knights who say nih!


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

-Old myths die hard, it seems the conclusion may turn out to be the branch causes re-orientation but isn't necessary. Thanks for the link, it's appreciated.

Thanks Joel, great discussion!

Consider this for a moment,,,
I have antidotal evidence that may suggest the foragers do not re orientate when moved short distances, with or without obstacles to aid them. 

I once moved a 10 frame single off of my nuc stand back two feet. A few days later it was moved to the left ten feet. For more than two weeks, foragers continued to fly thru the exact point on the nuc stand where the colony had been, and make a very sharp 90 degree turn to the left and fly the 10 feet over when returning from the felid to enter the colony. It was quite interesting to see, and it was obvious that they new where the hive was, but did not re orientate to its location. Instead, they remained orientated to the old location that remained fixed in their memory by landmarks, and continued to use the old orientation as a starting point in which to find the NEW colony location This suggests, they did not reorient to the new location, otherwise they would have flown directly to the hive. 

My nuc stand has a roof and a stand at 2 feet in height to sit the nucs on. It is obviously a profound land mark. Although the colony was moved and the scenery in the immediate area of the colony was changed drastically, this did not re orientate them. They still found the colony, but it was not a product of reorientation or overwriting the existing orientation of the old location.

I believe that the field bees will continue to fly back to the original location for the remainder of their lives in any colony that is moved these short distances, and probably they will divert from this course as they draw near to the original location. In the field, this might obviously go unnoticed by the beekeeper. But in order to illustrate this dramatically so one can visualize it, a hive can be fixed with a 4 by 2 long PVC pipe so that all the bees must travel thru the tube when entering or leaving. Let it remain in place for more than 2 weeks, then move your colony 10 feet leaving the pipe in the exact location that it had been and place a branch or board in front of the hive. If my observations hold true, it will reveal the bees will not reorient to the new location, but will continue to be orientated to the old location and fly thru the tube and then over to the new location.

[ May 14, 2006, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Big Ed (Jul 1, 2005)

After they get used to flying through the tube, can you substitute a miniature burning circus hoop and charge admission? (The Flying Circus...Ha! Ha!)

Sorry.....


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>I will give you time to provide the reference, if it is there is one to be found in ABC XYZ
I will concede on this subject. 

>"...A board should be leaned against the front of the hive so the bees will be confused by this obstruction the next day and will mark the new place." The Hive and the Honey Bee 1975 Extensively revised edition Pg 384 second paragraph of the section "How to Move Bees"

I thought we were done with this.







I found a reference in The Hive and the Honey Bee. I'm sorry I still haven't found another, but the "branch" version, instead of the board, is out there somewhere.


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## Troutsqueezer (May 17, 2005)

After taking what seemed like hours to read all these posts, I have to wonder about the original post somewhat. My first thought was that there are a lot of other, stronger possible reasons why his second hive is weaker. It's my understanding that while morning sun is good, it shouldn't be a hive-breaker if it take a little longer for the sun to reach the hive entrance. But hey, I'm kinda new too so I don't know much yet about beez n things.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--I thought we were done with this.

Yes we are done! 

Just having fun with how one might do an experiment to show what I have observed in forager bees.
Figuring out experiments is an excellent way one can learn about bee behavior. I enjoy taking about the ways that experiments can be conducted, its a great way to encourage progressive thinking. 

No big deal, I'll let you slide on finding the reference you said was in ABC XYZ

ABC XYZ suggest that bees have no trouble orientating to a new location within a short distance, Hive and honeybee suggest that a beekeeper should place a board in front so they will be confused and mark the new place. Actually, Im more interested in what the experiment might reveal about bee behavior than in finding out which one of use four is right or wrong here. And such a major contradiction in the books certainly does set the stage for an experiment. 

The post about the experiment was really aimed at Joel for discussion thats why I quoted Joel and not yourself. Since Joel being a commercial beekeeper that makes many nucs up, he would have the most practical knowledge of how bees react when they are relocated short distances. Ill be making up mating nucs shortly and any talk here would help.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Excellent comment Dee Bee!
I'm impressed!!! 

Lets review the posters comments:

First post:
,,,The other is weak because it doesn't get the morning sun.

One day later after the move:
It's my opinion that if I had just moved the hive without regard, the hive would have become even weaker. Now it's thriving.

It is my opinion that the posters description of thriving, is actually referring to entrance activity and the colony may not have been weak after all, becaue it is unlikely a colony will go from weak to thriving in 1 day. Entrance activity, although a positive sign to see in a colony is not always a sure sign that the colony is thriving or weak, you need to look inside. I have seen small colonies when stressed occasionally make a bigger fuss at the entrance than strong ones, and in the sun the entrance activity will always tend to increase.

[ May 14, 2006, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Tom Chaudoir (Nov 20, 2005)

Hi Pcolar,

I'm still learning the language and the science.

I was indeed talking about morning entrance activity when I said it was "thriving". The girls slept in a lot later before the move. I was comparing to the hive that was in the morning sun.

Perhaps I could have simply moved the hive without doing the shrubbery thing. (Nih!) In retrospect, I still would not take the chance. We are talking about 50% of my livestock here, and the weak half at that. As it stands I *watched* the bees reorient in the morning. None went back to the old position while I was there. I might try a controlled experiment one day, but only when I have bees to spare.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I think Pcolar's experiment idea sounds intriguing
I'm not in a position to try it right now but I hope somebody does

Dave


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