# Sticky  Preventive Antibiotics



## 123456789

Back in the 50s,60s,70s, & 80s it was common to treat our hives twice a year (early spring, and late fall) with terramycin to prevent our #1 problem back then which was AFB.

I'm just starting into my 3rd year back in the bees, and not treating as we used to has me worried. I've had a couple hives with mild brood problems (maybe chilled brood, maybe EFB?).

Here in California you can't treat without a vet's prescription and no vets in my area even know what I'm talking about and don't care to learn.

What's the answer here?


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## Akademee

Preventative antibiotic treatments create much greater long term problems than they solve. Given all of the recent antibiotic resistant "super-bugs" that have been created by exactly this practice in agriculture, the best thing to do is to inspect your bees for AFB and notify your state if you think you have it. If you are very concerned that a hive may be infected, it is best to euthanize (burn/bury) it as terramycin is only effective at the beginning stages of infection and will not kill the endospores and will continue to allow it to spread.


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## squarepeg

not just in california, but vets are required in every state since the fda made it so in 2017.

preventative treatments are not allowed anymore by law.

efb is making a resurgence here in the u.s., best to get a test kit asap and find out for sure.

all your other hives as well as any nearby neighboring hives are at high risk. this one spreads quickly and is pretty much impossible to eradicate without burning.

lots of up to date info here:









2022 Dead Larvae - Confirmed EFB


I am wondering if what I think is going on matches what other people are seeing. I am seeing some brood that looks like it has starved and is dead. I am not having many stores coming in so I think the bees are not able to feed all of the brood, and some of it is starving before it gets capped...




www.beesource.com


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## 123456789

Back in the 1970s if you didn't treat your hives DIED period. Just like not treating for mites now.


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## squarepeg

understood. one school of thought is now that preventative antibiotics aren't allowed anymore foulbrood is creeping out of the closet.


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## RayMarler

Let the weak die out and rebuild back from the strong. The only thing I'll treat for is varroa as it's not a disease but a pest infestation and so over powering on the hives. EFB I shake bees onto new foundation and requeen with hygienic queens. If that doesn't fix it then I torch them, I've never used antibiotics in hives myself.


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## 123456789

Some say "all your other hives as well as any nearby neighboring hives are at high risk. this one spreads quickly and is pretty much impossible to eradicate without burning".

Others don't agree. My hives seem fine once I took the bad brood out and they got on a flow. Maybe it's not EFB, but the tread linked above can't even agree if the test was even positive or not.

My research found; EFB is not necessarily a death sentence in the same way that American Foulbrood can be. Rather it is a stress disease, that only seems to show up in adverse conditions.

A strong colony may control the disease all on their own with no assistance from a beekeeper. Usually, light infections with a section of European Foulbrood on a frame or two require no treatment. If most of the brood in the hive look good, check back in a week to monitor the condition.


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## squarepeg

70 hives is a huge investment. you need a crash course.

it would be worth your while to watch the video linked in post #29 on the thread i mentioned above.


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## 123456789

I'm up to 140 hives now, hoping to get to 300 next year.


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## squarepeg

> "My research found; EFB is not necessarily a death sentence in the same way that American Foulbrood can be. Rather it is a stress disease, that only seems to show up in adverse conditions."


that is generally the thinking here in the u.s., but the problem is that thinking is outdated.

turns out there are now about 40 different strains of efb that can be distinguished by dna testing.

some of those strains may play out like you say, but others are apiary killers.

unfortunately we don't have access to the dna testing here in the u.s. needed to figure that out.

we have several contributors here including myself that have had experience with these very virulent strains, mine was resistant to the antibiotic prescribed by a vet. i lost 26 out of 28 colonies.


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## 123456789

Well mine have cleared up, but I want to stop a reoccurrence.


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## RayMarler

I got rid of EFB and Chalkbrood both by removing infected combs and requeening with known good VSH hygienic queens. One of the EFB occurrences was so bad before I figured out what it was that I burned that one. I have not had an occurrence of either disease since I got some good genes and clean combs for years now.


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## Fivej

I thought I read that the EU or UK started burning hives that tested positive for EFB, and has greatly reduced its occurrence. Can anyone confirm this? J


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## Arnie

I remember those days, Spade. 
The president of our bee club, who was no slouch, he has been in bee documentaries, gave us the recipe for the grease patties with crisco, powdered sugar and antibiotic in the spring. 

When I got back into bees 8 years ago that was a no-no.

I've encountered foulbrood twice. The first time was so long ago I can't remember what I did for it. Second time a requeen took care of it.

Best way to prevent a recurrence is to keep your hives strong and well fed. Nucs are handy for boosting a weak hive.


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## squarepeg

Fivej said:


> I thought I read that the EU or UK started burning hives that tested positive for EFB, and has greatly reduced its occurrence. Can anyone confirm this? J


switzerland is one country that mandates burning. i think i remember seeing the before and after graphs showing a big improvement but i was unable to find them.






European Foulbrood: a Serious Disease in Swiss Apiaries


Around 180,000 bee colonies are registered in Switzerland, each consisting of tens of thousands of individual bees. These colonies not only produce honey.




www.agroscope.admin.ch


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## JB33

If I understand correctly, you can do preventative treatments for EFB with a VFD from a vet. I've done it in the past once or twice. 

Now I only treat if I have confirmed EFB. Confirming it's EFB is very important as Parasitic Mite Sydrome (PMS) very much resembles EFB, but the antibiotics will do nothing to clear things up. I always have Vita Bee Health test kits on hand, one for AFB and one for EFB. Whenever I see something questionable I check the larvae with both test kits. That way you know exactly what it is and never misidentify anything.

I've heard of a few commercial queen producers who treat their cell builders prophylactically to keep them healthy and help prevent issues down the road. I can't say whether or not this makes a difference as I haven't done it, but I have heard of poor acceptance/viability being fixed with antibiotics. 

One last thing that comes to mind is the relationship between blueberry pollination and EFB. There are lots of theories why bees come out of blueberries with EFB issues but I haven't been following the issue too closely. Not sure if antibiotics would help with this but it might. Just something to keep in mind if you get into blueberries and start having issues.


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## squarepeg

joebee33 said:


> If I understand correctly, you can do preventative treatments for EFB with a VFD from a vet. I've done it in the past once or twice.


many thanks joe. i wasn't aware you could do that, so i did a little digging.

the 2017 law that brought the vets into the picture affected all types of commercial livestock across the board and not just bees.

the main reason for the law was concern about the overuse antibiotics and how that would likely lead to resistance on the part of the target organisms. it was expected to eliminate antibiotic preventative use altogether. up until the law, livestock managers here in the u.s. had about the most liberal access to antibiotics world wide. many countries actually outlawed antibiotics for commercial livestock many years ago.

you are correct joe, preventative use is technically off label, but on the table, if a vet ok's it.

contributors here have shared experiences with vets in which the vet said they go along with whatever think needed to be done, relying on the fact that the beekeeper knew a lot more about bees then they did. other contributors shared their experiences hiring vets to help them with their bees, and the vets actually came to their apiaries and inspected the hives, some which had started beekeeping themselves as an adjunct and asset to their vet practices.

when i got my vfd, in 2017, the retailer for otc told me the vfd was only good for that order, but there was no limit on how much otc i could buy, telling me that if i wanted to, i could stock up on otc to my heart's content, (although otc doesn't have a very long shelf life). i am not sure 'buy all you want' is still the policy or not.

here is the official fda document that has authority over livestock managers (that includes us) and vets. if you scroll down a little bit and just below 'outline' the second item is 'what's changed?'. of the five changed things listed the two that pertain to this discussion are 'medically important' and 'extralabel use'.



https://fda.report/media/106872/Medically-Important-Antimicrobials-in-Animal-Agriculture---Honey-Bees.pdf



medically important means the vet has to show a documentable reason on the vfd for authorizing the antibiotic. based on what has been reported here in the forum, some vets seem eager to let the beekeeper make the call, whereas some vets actually engage for hire as a medical professional.

extralabel use gives the vets pretty much free reign to write the vfd as they see fit, totally unencumbered by having to follow fda prescribing guidelines. with the extralabel use of preventive treatment for example, the vet would be required to document the reason for the extra lablel use and presumably have current science to back it up.

i'm in the camp that says the preventative use of antibiotics is harmeful to the livestock. i base this on what has happened with other types of livestock experiencing that practice, and science moving us more in that direction. but like with other types of livestock and for anybody with more than a few hives it's also economical, and so there's tension between opposing priorities.


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## msl

squarepeg said:


> you are correct joe, preventative use is technically off label, but on the table, if a vet ok's it.












There is a reason most of the big online stores sell 50# bags for $150!!!

heres a write in sample VFD for any one who has a vet they have good relationship with


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## ursa_minor

squarepeg said:


> the main reason for the law was concern about the overuse antibiotics and how that would likely lead to resistance on the part of the target organisms. it was expected to eliminate antibiotic preventative use altogether. up until the law, livestock managers here in the u.s. had about the most liberal access to antibiotics world wide. many countries actually outlawed antibiotics for commercial livestock many years ago.


OT my daughter is a registered nurse in home care. Many of her patients are farmers some of which have used their cattle antibiotics for their own home treatments, hence the need to regulate. I guess it really doesn't totally stop this practice but most of these were elder patients who no longer kept livestock but could buy it at a local feed store.


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## squarepeg

to be clear, the vfd that msl provides authorizes the use of otc for no more than about 15 days.

see on the vfd: "Duration of use: about 15 days".

this vfd looks like the one i got two years ago. if they all have that same exact wording a beekeeper using the antibiotic past those about 15 days would be in violation, and could potentially face legal consequences at the federal level.

no good relationship with a vet allows for further use of the medicine beyond the about 15 days, nor would such a relationship help any way in the defense of charges of unauthorized use. any further use would require a new vfd.

it appears that's the way in which the fda decided to incorporate the ban on preventative use.

if on the other hand, if a vet wanted to authorize extralabel say for a longer period of time, a different vfd would be required not having the 'about 15 days' restriction like this one has. i honestly don't believe many vets would be willing to stick their neck out on paper like that.


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## 123456789

*squarepeg*
Every thread has its anti treatment crowd. Same argument different pest. Don't treat the mites or they will become resistant. Let nature work it out.

Back in the 70s we only had terramycin and some AFB developed resistance. Same thing with the mites, some mites developed resistance to the first treatments, we found other treatments. The FACT is without those first treatments the bee industry would have collapsed. At the time no one knew what was next but they/we figured it out.

That will take a few thousand years but sure, let nature work it out.


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## squarepeg

> "Every thread has its anti treatment crowd."


absolutely spade.

please understand and in this case in particular i am not anti treatment for the sake of being anti treatment. heck, i obtained a vfd and used treatment when efb threatened to (and ultimately did) wipe out a queenline of mite resistant stock i spent years selecting that was averaging less than 20% winter losses with no mite treatments.

no, that's not where i am coming from here. my position is based on my background as a practicing clinician having both clinical as well as basic science backgrounds.

consider the long list of successful commercials including randy oliver and beesource's own jim lyons that gave up using antibiotics many years ago. it appears that those beekeepers have done a really good job with management as well as selection, (they raise their own queens, and likely don't purchase colonies at all let alone colonies with antibiotic treatment histories that can't be known).

that's pretty amazing if you think about, especially considering the exposure these two and others like them have related to their migratory and pollination pursuits.

i mentioned the tension between what makes better policy between profit and the better good for the livestock and we humans managing them, so i get that.

when it comes to efb, and so long as antibiotics are used, beekeepers will continue suffering losses like those shared on this forum. for the greater good long term to all parties involved, including the bees, eradication is the only sensible route. i believe we will eventually get to the point where that is mandated here in the u.s., as it is in other countries, once it becomes clear there is not future in just suppressing the outbreaks preventatively or treat as needed when it shows up.

the nature of this bug is that it never really goes away.

worst case scenario: a little otc get moved into a honey super and gets harvested. the honey is sold and consumed by a person having a severe hypersensitivy to otc. that person goes into anaphylactic shock and dies. it is discovered that the beekeeper had been using the otc outside the authorization of the vfd. we are talking possible negligent homicide.

the only source of efb is colonies with efb, coming to a neighborhood near you.


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## 123456789

Yep, as long as it's not my bees dying, I got it.

i obtained a vfd and used treatment when efb threatened to wipe out a queenline of mite resistant stock that was averaging less than 20% winter losses with no mite treatments.

Somehow we got to people dying and negligent homicide???


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## squarepeg

> "Somehow we got to people dying and negligent homicide???"


it was one of the reasons the fda came up with the ruling, yes.


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## Some Bloke

I confirm the UK and most if not all of Europe have much harsher rules about foul brood.

Hives with AFB are generally burned (plastic: sterilised with sodium hypochlorite), as are the bees & comb. This has been going on since the 1940s and AFB is now almost unknown. It's relatively easy to spot.

EFB we still have issues with as it builds slowly and is trickier ti spot, but it still results in mandatory lockdowns and inspectors checking nearby apiaries.

The "antibiotic" OxyTetraCycline, aka Terramycin, simply syppresses reproduction of AFB, ie hides the symptoms, so it's illegal here. I hear that some US states have regimes similar to ours, but migratory beekeepers from neighbouring US states with less Draconian regimes keep re-importing Foul Brood.

I've seen EFB twice in 12 years, on training days. Don't even know anyone who's seen AFB.


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## squarepeg

for better or for worse, the u.s. lumped bees together with with other food producing animals such as chickens, pigs, and cows when it changed the rules in 2017 regarding the availability and use of antibiotics.

two of the expressed reasons for doing so are to prevent the development of antibiotic resistance by misuse, and to protect human health by adopting stricter measures aimed at keeping the antibiotic out of the food supply.

for everything you want to know about the law and then some:





__





Federal Register :: Request Access






www.federalregister.gov


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## squarepeg

spade, i'm not a lawyer or a cop, but after sleeping on it i think negligent homocide was perhaps taking it too far. more likely if someone died from a beekeeper going rogue with antibiotics it be ajudicated as a wrongful death suit in civil court.


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## 123456789

negligent homicide or accidental death can you point to a few examples where honey caused this?


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## 123456789

*Some Bloke*
Don't even know anyone who's seen AFB.

It was a plage in California in the 70s. I learned to smell it from 10 feet away. Where it went is anyone's guess but it's hard to not worry when you've seen as much as I have in the 70's.
We used preventive Antibiotics and only had a couple cases a year (running 2,200 hives), but Dad's best friend was the county inspector so we saw a LOT of it.


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## ursa_minor

> "negligent homicide or accidental death can you point to a few examples where honey caused this?"


I think the point Squarepeg is making is being missed. It is not simply a case of because it hasn't happened yet therefore it is not a possibility.

It is that we, as beekeepers and for me personally as a cattle producer, have a responsibility to those who consume our products to be vigilant and not negligent in our use of antibiotics or we open ourselves up to the possibility of litigation. We also have a far wider responsibility to ensure that misuse does not lead to the formation of 'super bugs'.

We choose our profession and so with that choice comes certain responsibility.


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## squarepeg

ursa_minor said:


> I think the point Squarepeg is making is being missed. It is not simply a case of because it hasn't happened yet therefore it is not a possibility.


very true. i actually searched for it some time back and found there were isolated cases, don't recall if it was honey or other animal food product involved.



ursa_minor said:


> It is that we, as beekeepers and for me personally as a cattle producer, have a responsibility to those who consume our products to be vigilant and not negligent in our use of antibiotics or we open ourselves up to the possibility of litigation. We also have a far wider responsibility to ensure that misuse does not lead to the formation of 'super bugs'.


exactly right, but like with many similar pursuits some take this responsibility more seriously than others, and quite frankly since all this is new, some are not well enough informed to know how to act responsibly. 

spade, many thanks for starting and contributing to this thread. the question of preventative use has not been discussed here since the new ruling.


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## ursa_minor

squarepeg said:


> spade, many thanks for starting and contributing to this thread. the question of preventative use has not been discussed here since the new ruling.


I echo this thanks, it is a good topic and one that needs discussion.


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## Fivej

This is a good example where tele medicine could come into play. Many/ most of us are in rural areas with few vets with the time or knowledge to examine a hive and write a script. A personal visit is cost prohibitive for most. Beekeeping or at least knowledgeable vets from anywhere in the country could take a look at your hive via cam/ facetime to confirm a script is needed. Anyone know if this is being done? J


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## squarepeg

Fivej said:


> This is a good example where tele medicine could come into play.


agreed, and assuming the beekeeper has already obtained a positive vita bee health efb test kit result, that is exactly how i would handle it if i were a vet processing a vfd for the typical beekeeper.

time is of the essence and the days waiting for the vet appointment, getting the vfd processed, and getting the medicine delivered only work in favor of the pathogen.

using telemedicine also prevents the veterinarian from becoming a source of spread. i'm not sure i would want a vet to come to my yards after just finishing inspections at another efb positive yard.

i assume they are using disposible bee suits if there is such a thing, or perhaps have more than one bee suit and alway make sure they are putting on a freshly sanitized one for each visit.

a vet worth their salt would have a reliable way to deal with this.


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## Oldtimer

To go back to the original post -



> "Back in the 50s,60s,70s, & 80s it was common to treat our hives twice a year (early spring, and late fall) with terramycin to prevent our #1 problem back then which was AFB.
> 
> I'm just starting into my 3rd year back in the bees, and not treating as we used to has me worried. I've had a couple hives with mild brood problems (maybe chilled brood, maybe EFB?).
> 
> Here in California you can't treat without a vet's prescription and no vets in my area even know what I'm talking about and don't care to learn.
> 
> What's the answer here?"


Seems to me old habits die hard. Fifty years ago you used to feed all hives antibiotics, sick or not. Now you don't, and it is causing you to "worry".

At some point over the last 3 years you spotted some dead brood but could not determine if it was caused by chilling, or EFB, or what. With no diagnosis of cause, there is no certainty feeding antibiotics would have had any beneficial effect. And best I can tell from what you write, it seems whatever the problem was cleared up on it's own.

Going back in time 10 years, it was thought that at least 90% of all antibiotics used in the world was not being used to treat any existing disease, but being fed in low amounts to animals as a growth enhancer, and infection suppressant. Superbugs were beginning to emerge in increasing numbers and it was also considered that most of those were a result of the 90% of antibiotics being fed to animals. Grave predictions were made about the future, a future where surgeries considered minor today may become impossible as any infection could not be treated, and people might die from minor cuts that got a bug. Childbirth may become as dangerous as it was in Victorian times.
Some of this scenario is looking less likely now, but only because major changes have taken place in the way we think about and use antibiotics.
I can see how the good ol' days have their appeal, life was so much simpler. But we must also have an eye to the future.

When Squarepegs hives got EFB he did resort to antibiotics. Didn't work for him and he was forced to resort to other means. A painful process, but he appears to have succeeded. It can be done, and the old ways are beginning to do less good, and more harm.


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## squarepeg

spade asked if we could point to any cases in which an adverse reaction to honey contaminated with otc lead to death.

i searched for that back in 2019 while reeling with efb and somewhat recall finding a few cases, and if i recall correctly they occurred on other continents and not in north america. 

i finally had a chance to do that search again today but after about 10 minutes of searching i gave up.

however, and short of death, some people still can suffer very serious medical complications if they happen to be highly allergic to otc and happen to ingest some through a tainted food product, honey or otherwise. (for which a responsible entity could be held for damages in civil court especially if there was negligence or misuse of the drug involved)

programming note: otc = oxytetracycline = tetracycline = terramycin

the following reveals a major reason why otc is regulated, with the other major reason to prevent overuse and misuse leading to the develpment of bacteria resistant to the drug:

here's some free info about those adverse effects known to result from otc, and part of the reason why otc is more regulated now:









Side Effects of Terramycin (Oxytetracycline), Warnings, Uses


A comprehensive guide to side effects including common and rare side effects when taking Terramycin (Oxytetracycline) includes uses, warnings, and drug interactions.




www.rxlist.com






here is a table from an nihpublication that takes a scientific look at the issue:










cite: Tetracycline Allergy


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## squarepeg

large scale honey producers are required to have their honey loads sampled for contaminants. otc is one of the things that if found in the honey prevents the packer from buying it.


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## Oldtimer

If you got caught with antibiotics in your honey in my country there would be very serious repercussions. Not only would the honey be unsaleable, but you would probably have your ability to export even good honey cancelled. Most NZ honey production is exported so that would financially cripple the beekeeper and likely end his business.


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## 123456789

Misuse and rare are the keywords here. Squarepeg goes WAY out of his way to prove he's right and you're wrong.

That is why you only treat in early spring or late fall, or a hive you don't plan to harvest. Common sense.

Tylan has a half life of 3 days, I don't have the time that Squarepeg has to find the half life of terramycin but instruction clearly state not to treat within 6 weeks of any flow.


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## squarepeg

trust me spade, i would rather be wrong than right on this one.

each one of us has to make our own call on how we manage our bee businesses, and i've always respected that.

i'm not trying to talk anyone into or out of anything here, just providing the relevant information so that informed minds can best make that call for themselves.


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## 123456789

Well good news, you are WRONG!

WHERE in your example does it say this was caused by food and not the drug being administered directly???

7 cases in 60 years?

When used correctly this would NOT be a problem.


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## Oldtimer

> "Squarepeg goes WAY out of his way to prove he's right and you're wrong."


Hmm.... If that is true, he would not appear to be the only one 😮


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## 123456789

Oldtimer said:


> Hmm.... If that is true, he would not appear to be the only one 😮


Just calling him out on his stats. Truth is one thing, SPIN is another. SPIN, just to be right is yet another.


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## ursa_minor

> "When used correctly this would NOT be a problem."


Which he clearly stated, bolding is mine.



squarepeg said:


> (for which a responsible entity could be held for damages in civil court* especially if there was negligence or misuse of the drug involved)*


I, quite frankly, don't give a tinkers darn if there are any known cases in court.

A producer of food is responsible for their product period, and IMO should take anything they put into the hive seriously, especially if they are selling it, since the consumer is not privy to shoddy husbandry and shoddy treatments.


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## 123456789

ursa_minor said:


> A producer of food is responsible for their product period, and IMO should take anything they put into the hive seriously, especially if they are selling it


I never said otherwise but some are making the case it should NEVER be used, and using data that just is not true.


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## ursa_minor

> "I never said otherwise but some are making the case it should NEVER be used, and using data that just is not true."


And they may be right, overuse of antibiotics is causing super bugs.

But that is not what I am reading on this thread. Most posters here are clearly not anti treatment. I am reading that they are for more responsible treatments simply because having a law suit on the books is not the bar which we should be aiming for. Not all harm ends in law suits or is even taken that far.


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## Oldtimer

> I never said otherwise but some are making the case it should NEVER be used,


That would be me. Some are more moderate than I, but me I'm extreme on this issue. Probably because the use of antibiotics in honey production hives is banned in all circumstances in my country and I have seen this can work.
There's just no need, it may look like a quick fix but in the longer term it is not.
But the main issue of course is the production of superbugs via antibiotic use in agriculture generally, not just in honeybees.


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## squarepeg

> "Misuse and rare are the keywords here. Squarepeg goes WAY out of his way to prove he's right and you're wrong.
> 
> That is why you only treat in early spring or late fall, or a hive you don't plan to harvest. Common sense.
> 
> Tylan has a half life of 3 days, I don't have the time that Squarepeg has to find the half life of terramycin but instruction clearly state not to treat within 6 weeks of any flow."


at this stage in my life spade it's really unimportant to me to prove myself right or wrong about anything. i regret that you view these contributions to your thread as personal attacks on you. what we attacking here is the question you inferred in your original post, and that is 'what about the preventive use of antibiotics in beehives'.

what we have learned in this discussion is the answer to that question: the preventative use of antibiotics in beehives is not allowed under our updated directives from the fda.

using antibiotics in the spring and fall as you allude to has essentially been banned. doing so would be considered misuse. and anyone practicing this would be in violation of the law and could face potential consequences. any prior 'instructions' and labeling regarding the agricultural use of otc now take a back seat to the vfd directive.

i call our attention to the image of msl's vfd that he shared with us in his post #18. please note the following on the vfd:

"*duration of use: about 15 days*" any use beyond that 15 days is misuse and in violation, and

"*use of feed containing this veterinarian feed directive (vfd) drug in a manner other than directed on the labeling (extra label use) is not permitted.*" we beekeepers by law are not allowed by to deviate from the vfd and doing so would be in violation.

the exception would be if a vet agreed to write a vfd for preventative use, which would be considered extralabel. it seems very unlikely that a vet would do this however, since it clearly violates both the letter and spirit of the new law, as well as puts the vet and their professional license in jeopardy with their respective state's veterinarian licensing board.



> "Well good news, you are WRONG!"


i have provided references for most of the points i made here spade. these are not my directives, but come to us from our federal and state authorities having jurisdiction over us.

i am here to learn. i like it when i'm wrong because it's a learning opportunity for me. please explain exactly what i have contributed that is wrong.

the bottom line is the preventative use of antibiotics in beehives is a thing of the past unless the beekeeper goes rouge and uses them in violation of the law. we have some long time beekeepers in our area doing just that, feeding antibiotics before and after the honey supers are placed, and not caring about the risk doing so poses to themselves and others. or maybe they just don't know better.


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## squarepeg

> "When used correctly this would NOT be a problem."


perhaps you are right spade, but it is no longer our call to make.


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## squarepeg

> "Yet on another thread you seem OK with OA sponges which is also 'off label'???"


in yet another another thread i shared randy oliver's latest guidance about extended release oa, in which he states:

"This method of application of oxalic acid is not yet approved by the EPA. However, EPA does not require an Experimental Use Permit for a limited number of hives. Check with your State Lead Agency."

i did say i would consider it, but it's unlikely i would ever use this method anyway, and instead save the labor by dribbling oa on a broodless/queenless colony, (if that even ever comes up). but if i were to use extended release oa off label i would certainly check with my state lead agency before doing so.

however spade and when it comes to the use of preventative antibiotics in a bee hive it really doesn't make a lick of difference what i think, say, or do. your issue is not with anything i have any control over. your issue is with the law.

cautionary note: a lot of those 2 million single deeps sent to almonds in february are not longer useful to the migratory commercial outfits that brought them there once they have gotten their payday. since honey isn't paying all that well these days it makes more sense for them to sell off surplus colonies, often at a great discount for those buying in bulk. some of these colonies make it to southern states such as georgia where they are repurposed for package and nuc sales. since it is impossible to know the treatment history of such colonies, (for example whether or not preventative antibiotics were being employed to suppress afb and efb), and since the exposure risk is high for these colonies while being held in holding yards ect., it is a matter of buyer beware when it comes to acquiring these surplus singles or packages/nucs that were derived from them. my hunch is that the uptick in efb we are seeing in the u.s. might be traced back to surplus bees after almonds. at least in my particular experience that appears to be the case.


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## ursa_minor

> "Bottom line is that this is a loophole and I'm sure if a vet approves another loophole it would also look good on paper but it would be hypocritical to use one and put down another.
> The LAW is the LAW!!! right?"


I don't think this is as black and white as you seem to want it to be.

It reminds me a little of when a teenager wants to stay out late because their sister is allowed to despite being more of a untrustworthy child.
Not all regulations or the breaking of them, is equal nor do all cause the same level of harm when they are.

So while one Law might have more leniency, another may not, depending on the level of harm involved.


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## crofter

One difference I see is that prophyllactic antibiotic use has been tried and found guilty of really bad behavior. 
Extended release oxalic acid is being assessed and pending approval. It in various forms is already approved on quite a few continents. For me personally, social responsibility trumps legality.


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## squarepeg

> "The LAW is the LAW!!! right?"


absolutely spade, 100%

as far as the epa is concerned extended oa use is ok for a limited number of hives, whatever that number is, but before i would employ it myself i would have to see what the state of alabama has to say about it and inquire about proper authorization.

no, i have not and would not go off label and violate the law. i learned a long time ago to avoid the risk when there is much more to lose than there is to gain.



> "I know 100 commercial beekeepers and ALL of them bend the law, AND the county and state look the other way for the most part. None of them are buying $20,000.00 worth of "approved" mite control when they can do the same thing for $500.00."


that says a lot right there. i'm surprised you would put something like that out on a public forum.


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## squarepeg

it appears that this thread has gotten off topic, and i believe we have covered all the bases regarding the preventative use of antibiotics. sincere thanks to the op and all who have contributed. good thread.


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## Rader Sidetrack

As you can see this thread went off the rails and has been closed. Removing individual posts from a long thread is not practical, but we have renamed the account and removed his access to that renamed account.

And yes, I did edit one of his posts to remove an unrelated off-topic political rant. I make no apologies for removing such political rants, the alternative is to delete the post(s) entirely, or ban the member entirely.


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