# Varroa in September Question?



## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

How many is too many? I just did a 6 hour test and counted 20 total in the IPM tray. So my question is is this a high number or normal for a 2 deep 2 medium hive in september? Or is this a reasonable number for them to deal with in the fall? 
Opinions welcome. Sorry this topic might be better off in diseases and pests.


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

GRIMBEE said:


> How many is too many? I just did a 6 hour test and counted 20 total in the IPM tray. So my question is is this a high number or normal for a 2 deep 2 medium hive in september? Or is this a reasonable number for them to deal with in the fall?


Yes, that's a high number for 6 hours. You need to treat. I've been treating weekly with powdered sugar for the last three weeks. Whether you use that or another method is up to you, but I think you need to knock that mite count down before winter.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Why six hours? The shorter the duration of the test, the less likely that the results are meaningful. 

24 hours would be the minimum I'd test and I would actually recommend that you leave the sheets in for 72 hours and then divide the results by 3 to get an average 24 hour count.


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

So which is better 24hr or 72hr? I bet I get different answers from everyone.


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## Konrad (Oct 7, 2004)

In your case I go for 24 hr. because you have a heavy drop, this way it's easier to count the Varroa.
Makes sense?

Konrad


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Certainly, you'll get different answers from everyone. Many of us can't count on being available at a certain time so we typically try to do as long a count as possible and then "extend" the data to average it out for a day. If we do a count lasting more than one day, we divide to come up with a daily average. Of course, it's not an exact science but....for sure.....more data is better than less data.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

GRIMBEE said:


> So which is better 24hr or 72hr? I bet I get different answers from everyone.


You never bothered to answer my original question. Why did you do a 6 hour test? 

As soon as I get the courtesy of an answer to mine I'll be happy to answer yours.


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## WayneW (Jul 17, 2008)

From personal experience i can say this about counting mite drops.......

Counting the short term may give you a good "clue" as to wether or not you have a problem. But there are variables that get involved and confuse the information.... If you have read my recent post about my troubles with VM, then you have seen the evidece first hand. A high drop one day, in only a few hours, then a leveling out over a few treatments, checkin 24 hour drops at that point .....(even a nice reduction) and ending in a *population expolsion* of mites (likely due to affected brood emerging)

20 in six hours, you have mites, but that dosent mean that a 24 hour test will yeild 80....... nor does it mean it will yeild 4.

Short term will let you know if you have a problem yes........ But i would say that long term (at least 72 hours) would give a better indication of *how bad* your mite loads actually are.

My 2 cents....... from my experience........which is limited to a 7 week beekeeping journey.

@beemandan............. Your signiture could not possibly be more true


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

I think it is time to stop counting and start treating. After Friday the weather will be good for formic acid, if you want to use it, in my opinion it is the most effective at this time of the year.

Gilman



GRIMBEE said:


> So which is better 24hr or 72hr? I bet I get different answers from everyone.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I agree with bleta12. The temps are getting consistently low enough to us Formic Acid. Nice time of year to kill those little critters!


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

Formic acid is a chemical solution. I wanted to use all organic. I also don't want my bees to die thru winter because of a high mite population. 
A rock and a hard place is where I am. I will sugar dust for a couple of weeks to see if it helps, and if it does not work to knock numbers down enough then I will have to resort to chemicals
Counts were very low until September.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I had a similar question from a fellow beekeeper that I know.

He uncapped and counted 100 drones and found 25 mites. Recently. That doesn't sound too bad to me. He wanted to know if that count indicated that he should treat. My answer is that he should treat even if that number is relatively low or not so his bees will have a better chance of getting through the winter.

Any thoughts?


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

Im gonna use the sugar dusting method until the end of September. If it doesn't work well enough for me then its time for "Mite Away 2" Formic acid pads I really don't want to use chemicals, Damb it.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

GRIMBEE said:


> If it doesn't work well enough for me then its time for


Now I'm doubly curious. Please define 'well enough for me'.


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

Say maybe 10 mites in a 24 hr period, something they can manage. Or is any population of varroa going to doom my hives for winter? They won't be producing drones in winter and I would assume that drone laying is gonna slow down soon. Maybe I am wrong. The sugar dusting is not going to get rid of them all.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I think that if you're hoping for 10 mites in 24 hours you can probably save yourself the trouble of testing and just plan to treat every season. It'll be very unusual, in my experience, to have a vigorous colony with a large population of bees that's going to have that small a mite drop without some form of treatment. In Georgia the recommended low end threshold this time of year is 60.


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

My bees are gonna be seeing alot of me as I refuse to use any chemicals. I already made 5 pounds of sugar powder. 
I will be sugar dusting 2 times a week, maybe even every other day. This is gonna be a pain in the butt but I think it is the best way for me. 3 hives and 2 are producing a fall harvest of honey. Springs was awesome or should I say is I still have about 30 pounds of it that I didn't sell.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I would strongly encourage drop counts if you're sugar dusting. It DOES work, but a colony that has a lot of mites in the cells can get ahead of you. Remember, you're not killing mites with sugar....you're making them drop off. I won't get into the math, but if you're only affecting a small percent of the population, the mites can get ahead of you. Sugar...like all mite treatments....should be part of a multi-faceted approach....IPM (Integrated Pest Management). I do sugar treatments but I've had colonies really suffer no matter how often I visited them. I suppose that if you're going to have a hive go down, now is not a bad time to do it, but I really believe you need a backup plan when the bees need your help. Of course, if you're trying to use natural selection to produce survivor stock then you're probably on the right track.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

GRIMBEE said:


> I already made 5 pounds of sugar powder.


You know you can buy the stuff already made up.


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

Where I had happened to stop for sugar the powdered sugar they sold also had corn starch or something other than just sugar in it. And it cost more money.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Ravenseye said:


> I would strongly encourage drop counts if you're sugar dusting.


I also encourage drop counts. My original problem with GRIMBEE was that he chose to do a 6 hour count. I also encourage people to use the established protocol so their results are meaningful. In GRIMBEE's case he's chosen to use the established procedure but has created his own protocol.....for reasons I don't understand and he seems unwilling to explain.


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

I got over 100 count in a 24 hour period, I count again Saturday to get 72 hour count. I started Wensday morning.


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

GRIMBEE said:


> So which is better 24hr or 72hr? I bet I get different answers from everyone.


Ask 10 different beekeepers and get 11 different answers.

However, there is value in this, because it makes you think and even test to see which answer works best for you in your situation. Many times, the other 9 beeks aren't wrong, they're just operating under slightly different circumstances than you are. That doesn't mean there's less merit in what they're saying, you just need to find a way to shoehorn it into your operation.


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

I did a powdered sugar dusting yesterday. The bees really hated it, afterwards they bearded on the hives like I've never seen except in pics, all night even thru the rain we are having. 
I lit my smoker and chased all of them back in their hives this morning. They all marched in except for some on the landing board. Even though its raining some persist in foraging.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

*sugar*



GRIMBEE said:


> Where I had happened to stop for sugar the powdered sugar they sold also had corn starch or something other than just sugar in it. And it cost more money.


Get your food processor out and puree plain granulated sugar. This will produce a sugar with very fine granules. This is an old cooks’ trick. If you also are planning to use this method in baking, remember when you puree your sugar you will lose some volume. If your recipe calls for 1 cup of confectioners or powdered sugar, process slightly more than 1 cup of granulated sugar. This is probably not feasible for a commercial beekeeper. But other means may be found if we plant a seed. 

I doubt sugar has much effect on varroa, but that the bees communal grooming (picking powered sugar off each other) encourages them to find and remove mites. Isn’t this the definition of hygienic behavior? 

Perhaps someone with more experience than me could explain better.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Scrapfe said:


> I doubt sugar has much effect on varroa, but that the bees communal grooming (picking powered sugar off each other) encourages them to find and remove mites.


Actually powdered sugar gets beneath the suction pods on the bottom of varroas' feet. They lose their ability to hold on to the bees' bodies and many fall from that alone. Grooming dislodges many more.



Scrapfe said:


> Isn’t this the definition of hygienic behavior?


The hygienic behavior we hear about mostly in beekeeping has to do with the workers' ability to detect problems with and remove developing pupae from beneath wax cappings.


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## MichelleB (Jan 29, 2006)

Grim, 

I can certainly understand that you want to avoid using as many chemicals as possible. I try and do the same. But...

Going into your hive every day/other day to do sugar dusting is probably going to cause your colony way more harm than a round of Formic. 

Dusting, for all its warm fuzzies, is invasive and it stresses the bees. Usually, dusting once every 7 days is sufficient, every other day is overkill. 

Just sayin'. And...good luck!


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

your getting way too hung up on the numbers. Monitoring mites is not about the number of mites unless its the first count. Now if the first 24 hr natural mite fall exceeds 50 you are considered to be approaching the economic threshold this is the point the host parasite relationship falls in favor of the mites and they overwhelm thier hosts causing PMS typically spotted by DWV. SO you got over 50 and you treat! Now your mission is to monitor the daily average mite fall and spot the rise in this average that signals the mite population is on the rise and the economic threshold is once again going to be exceeded and head it off with a poedered sugar treatment. The host parasite balance can be thrown out of wack any time for a number of reasons half of which we have yet to discover. The bottom line is that monitoring the daily average mite fall will keep you one step ahead of the mites.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Scrapfe said:


> I doubt sugar has much effect on varroa, but that the bees communal grooming (picking powered sugar off each other) encourages them to find and remove mites. Isn’t this the definition of hygienic behavior?
> 
> Perhaps someone with more experience than me could explain better.


It's my understanding that the powdered sugar dust makes it hard for the varroa mites feet to keep a foot hold. And maybe the dust clogs up their spiricals so they don't breath so well.

The grooming bees helps dislodge the mites too.

That's what I've heard any who.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I'll continue to state that sugar dusting is part of a broader plan to control pests. No single plan, short of kerosene and matches, is going to eliminate mites or other pervasive pests. A mites biological imperative is to sustain it's own kind. Those that don't die off from whatever treatment you use will be here tomorrow to carry on and move forward. The goal of any treatment is not elimination....it's managing populations and mitigating risk. Your overall strength of the hive, time of year, type of bee, state of honey flow, number of pests, age of queen, etc., will all be contributing factors to what we call "health". You WILL have hives that crash. You WILL have hives that can go untreated for years and you WILL have hives that fall in between, requiring considerate (meaning carefully intrusive) monitoring, appropriate treatment and a little luck thrown in (weather, etc.). 

Count up your tools to check mite populations and use them as you, the beekeeper, see fit. These (non-exhaustively) include sticky boards, screened bottom boards, sugar dusting, drone frames, thymol, various "hard" chemicals, the acids, food grade mineral oil, brood cycle breaks, hygienic hybrids, vinegar, and so on. I know, I probably forgot a bunch. 

Get what you can afford and use them throughout the seasons. When I say "afford", I mean both in money, time, additional equipment, experience, number of hives, locations, etc. For example, I sugar dust my hives ONLY when I open them for inspection or if I notice an alarming percentage increase in mites as the season progresses while I'm supered up. I ONLY do drone frames when I KNOW that I'll be home about the time they need to come out, else I turn a hive into a mite factory. 

Mites in September are mites in September. You've got tools and limitations. Make a short list and work while you have the time. Skip heavy treatment on hives that are in good shape. Focus on struggling hives. Trade some brood and honey frames around to get ready for winter and start looking forward to 2009 spring splits!


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> It's my understanding that the powdered sugar dust makes it hard for the varroa mites feet to keep a foot hold. And maybe the dust clogs up their spiricals so they don't breath so well.
> 
> The grooming bees helps dislodge the mites too.
> 
> That's what I've heard any who.


Hygenic behavior goes a bit further than just grooming eachother it also involves worker bees uncapping mite infested cells and removing the larve. Russian bees are good at this by the sole fact they have been dealing with the Varroa mite longer and have adapted to this behavior.

Bottom line is still the only way to stay one step ahead of the mite is to monitor the average daily natural fall and respond to the increase with whatever IPM you use.


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

I am using powdered sugar once a week on all 3 hives. Olny one has a bad mite problem. The others seem to be doing a good job of keeping the mite population down on their own. 
All in all it has been a very good first year of beekeeping so far for me. But I still have to get them thru winter.


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## yoyo (Jun 13, 2007)

I propose a simple test. Back this spring, when the queen was laying alot of drone brood. I noticed that the mites were sometimes 6 or 7 in a drone cell. I don't have drone frames, so I did the next best thing, I uncapped any drone cells I could find. In doing this I tore out a small section of pure drone brood. When I returned to the house, I was looking at the comb more closely, and found a few drones that were starting to emerge. I "helped" one drone to emerge and it had a mite attached on to it. I also had sugar dusted during the inspection and had the sugar close by. I then sprinkled a tiny amount of sugar on the drone in an amout I thought it might would receive by dusting the hive. To my amazement, in just a few seconds, the mite became un-attached and crawled around on the drone's back at a very fast pace and then fell off of the drone completely. 
I propose some of you do a similar test and let's see if you get similar results. Seems I read that the sugar acts to dry out the mite and they don't like that.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Heres a real good read about managing the economic threshold http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=443


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## mushgirl (Apr 28, 2008)

How do you make sugar powder? I have looked for powdered sugar without corn starch and have had no luck.
Nancy


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

What I found also had corn starch in it. I just take granulated sugar and put a pound at a time in a blender until it is powdered. Then I store it in tupperware until I use it, or I just use it the same day.


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

This hve may be doomed Now I am finding wax moth larvea on the screened bottom board. Oh fun, Right at the end of the season. [edit by mod]


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