# Managing hives for honey--common sense and beyond..



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

So....Countryboy just told me, 


"According to the USDA, in 2008, the average in Ohio was 53 pounds. Virginia's average was 42 pounds. In 2009, 50 and 39 pounds respectively.

While location does play a factor, I'm a firm believer that management is extremely important. Keep in mind that there are a lot of mismanaged hives bringing the state average down. Aspire to have the above average well managed hives."

I aspire to have a well managed hive. Despite the 45 day nectar flow, I also aspire to get above the VA average... :waiting:

So, besides the topic we just had a war over, how do YOU manage your hives for honey?

These are the basics I think I know:

1) Have a good, strong queen who can build up numbers before the nectar flow
2) Don't loose your good strong queen and half your hive to swarming! Move boxes, insert frames, remove brood, artificially swarm a split, etc to keep your bees.
3) Keep them close, but not crowded--add boxes (only) when appropriate.

Because our season is so short, I plan on trying the 'dequeening' method, so the hive is broodless and raising their virgin for most of our flow, and then declines in numbers as we enter the mid-summer dearth. Anyone do that regularly?

I guess double queen colonies aren't really 'basics', but if you do that for honey, I'd like to hear about it: How the equipment is set up, how long it runs like that/when do you do the combine, double colony averages vs singles, etc.

Any other methods?


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

There was recently a thread in the commercial forum about how to get 180-200 pounds per hive. There were many good tips in it.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245924

Using queen excluders properly can help you get 10%-15% more honey. Using queen excluders improperly can cost you the crop because the hive swarmed.

For high honey production, it helps to run the hive like a comb honey hive. Run it as a single deep with an excluder. You can winter in a double deep, but run singles in summer.

Take all the honey, and then feed the bees to prepare them for winter. The extra honey you get is worth more than the syrup you feed them.

Don't split them too hard before the flow. This can cut your crop.

Feed them in early spring to help them get built up to a large foraging force.

You can dump two 3 or 4 pound packages in a box right before the flow hits (but only one queen.) You have all those foraging bees, and no brood to take care of. In a way, this is similar to the dequeening method - but for dequeening, you want to dequeen the strongest colonies, which have the largest foraging force. (But the strongest colonies are the queens you want to keep.)

I trim my brood frames to 1 1/4 and run 11 frames. One of the limitations of spring buildup is how much brood a cluster can keep warm. Any given cluster can only maintain a certain volume. By running 11 frames, I have 10% more comb in a cluster than I would have if I ran 10 frames, and 22% more comb than if I ran 9 frames in my broodbox. This allows me to pack more brood in any given cluster, which allows me to build up faster.

I run quite a few of Mann Lake's PF small cell frames. These have 8,000 cells per frame, whereas 5.4mm cell frames have 6,000 or so. This is another 25%-30% more brood I can raise in any given cluster volume.

Small cell bees emerge about 5%-10% faster than 5.4 cell bees. A faster cycle time from egg lay to egg lay is like having a larger brood area.

I am running my bees in singles this year, and adding a box of drawn comb below the broodbox after the last honey pull, and I am putting a frame feeder in both boxes and feeding to prepare for winter.

We had a rainy day the other day, and I was delivering a honey payment to a farmer, so I stopped by my beeyard and lifted a few lids.  I haven't done the last pull yet. I had hives in a single deep with an excluder, with 4 supers that were plugged out. After the first pull in late July, the box right above the excluder had a few frames of drawn comb, and the rest of the boxes were foundation or foundationless. These hives had bees hanging outside the box in the rain/drizzle. These hives were splits from 2 pound packages this spring.

Drawn comb in your honey supers (and brood boxes) is extremely important. It isn't every year that bees will draw out combs and plug boxes.


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Despite the 45 day nectar flow, I also aspire to get above the VA average..._

How much honey have the bees eaten between the time the 45 day flow ends and the time the beekeeper pulls the honey. The longer you wait to pull the honey after the flow ends, the more honey the bees eat. Pull the honey and feed them.


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Wow... thanks! Lot of info here.

I have a dealer who sells me 1 3/8 frames, so not as bad as the 1 1/2. But cutting down to 1 1/4 seems like a good idea. Any suggestions for how to do that on 'active' combs, or is it something I should just start doing with new frames?

"You can dump two 3 or 4 pound packages in a box right before the flow hits (but only one queen.) You have all those foraging bees, and no brood to take care of. In a way, this is similar to the dequeening method - but for dequeening, you want to dequeen the strongest colonies, which have the largest foraging force. (But the strongest colonies are the queens you want to keep.)"

Yup! When I remove her, she'll go into a nuc to keep laying for my mid-summer round of cells!


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Any suggestions for how to do that on 'active' combs, or is it something I should just start doing with new frames?_

How ambitious are you, and are you comfortable running a table saw?

I wouldn't mess with cutting down frames that have bees and brood in them. If you have empty combs, (deadouts, extracted, etc) you can trim them down.

I set my table saw fence to 1 5/16. I stand the frame on end, and run it through to remove 1/16 from one side of the end bar. I flip the frame 180 degrees and trim the other end bar. Then I set my fence at 1 1/4 and trim off the uncut side of the endbars.

If your comb used wired foundation, there will usually be a nail in the side of the endbars holding the end of the wire. I do NOT recommend trimming this side of the end bar. You will get sparks as you cut it, and the saw blade will throw tiny pieces of hot metal (nail pieces) at you. Don't ask me how I know. With frames like this, I only trim the side without a nail, and leave one end of the frame 1 5/16 wide.

The other problem you run into is the top bar is usually about 1 1/16 inch wide. When you trim the end bars, it reduces the gap between the top bars, and bees often have difficulty getting through. It will act like a queen excluder.

I prefer to make 1 1/4 frames before they are put together. I plane the top bar to 1 inch wide. Then I cut the end bars on my table saw, trimming 1/16 inch off each side. Then I assemble the frames.

I made a jig for setting my fence out of a scrap piece of wood. One end of the piece is 1 5/16, and the other end is 1 1/4. I just set the jig between the saw blade and run the fence over to it. It's a lot faster than trying to measure from the blade to the fence.

I really should make some YouTube videos on building narrow frames sometime.


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

I think ambition is in the eye of the beholder. 

But I DO want to maximize honey production and dabble in other bee-arts to see how I like those too. (Considering quitting my day job in favor of bees--and sanity--so I'm trying all the aspects I can to see if I can 'make it work'.)

I have a low grade borrowed table saw and will be upgrading by Christmas sales at the latest. Thanks for the tip about trimming the top bars--I hadn't really thought of how close they'd be.


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_But I DO want to maximize honey production and dabble in other bee-arts to see how I like those too. _

It's difficult to make bees and make a honey crop both. (It's possible with the right management, but you have to split early.)

Try leaving a few hives alone for honey production. Run them for honey production, and don't split them, etc. Just see what those hives will do for you.

Why not raise and sell nucs? In another thread you mentioned doing 60 nucs, and selling 30 queens ($600 @$20) and sending 30 hives to almonds ($4500 @$150). That's a potential $5100 gross, not counting expenses. Selling 41 of those nucs @$125 is $5125, leaving you with 19 nucs/hives to take into next year. Ask yourself how much input costs you want, and how much risk you want, and what kind of rewards you are looking at.

Bees don't care if their equipment is built with low grade table saws.


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> _Bees don't care if their equipment is built with low grade table saws. _


_

very true, or what color boxes they live in, or whether they are stapled or glued, etc_


----------



## turboterry544 (May 29, 2009)

thank you so much for all the info its like talking w Ron


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> _Why not raise and sell nucs? In another thread you mentioned doing 60 nucs, and selling 30 queens ($600 @$20) and sending 30 hives to almonds ($4500 @$150). That's a potential $5100 gross, not counting expenses. Selling 41 of those nucs @$125 is $5125, leaving you with 19 nucs/hives to take into next year. Ask yourself how much input costs you want, and how much risk you want, and what kind of rewards you are looking at._


_

Tara, I would think from VA it might not be cost effective to send 30-40 hives to almonds...i might be wrong...might be better off keepin those hives at home and managing them for honey/nuc production....just thinkin out loud _


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Countryboy--"Selling 41 of those nucs @$125 is $5125, leaving you with 19 nucs/hives to take into next year."

--Yes, but that final split is in June/July, when no one wants nucs anymore. Also, nucs around here sell for ~$75-100. If I can make some prior to that during the first 2 rounds of queen-rearing, I'll be selling those along with the queens. I want the post-solstice queens in my build-up nucs.

Lol...yeah, I can afford 30 boxes, which divided in half give me 60 nucs. I don't have the time to build 60 boxes this early! And if I have 30 hives coming out of almonds strong in 2012, think of the early spring nuc possibilities!

"Bees don't care if their equipment is built with low grade table saws." 

--Ah, but my fingers do! Seriously, this thing is scary. Its like the difference in driving a beater 120mph down a freeway vs driving a sportscar---one feels a LOT safer!

"I would think from VA it might not be cost effective to send 30-40 hives to almonds..."

--Ah, but that's the beauty (one of few) of having the government move me and my bees!  If they move me to New Mexico next November, I only have to pay for ~4 tanks of gas there and back with the hives in my trailor! Once I get back to NM after the almonds, I can evaluate the sales potential and decide how many to split down for sale and how many to keep for local pollination and the April nectar flow.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Tara said:


> These are the basics I think I know:
> 
> 
> 2) Don't loose your good strong queen and half your hive to swarming! Move boxes, insert frames, remove brood, artificially swarm a split, etc to keep your bees.
> ...


I don't know Tara...what you plan is exactly what limits the production in a honey bee colony. What is the difference in the eventual production if the colony swarms or you "artificially swarm" a colony? And by keeping them crowded by not adding sufficient comb space before they need it, you are asking for swarm preparations to start.

If you want more honey, keep them as strong as possible, peaking in population at the main flow.


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Mike,

It was my impression that with an artificial swarm, you could control the number of bees you removed--maybe a quarter instead of half--or you could do it a little early, so they have time to build back up. Or do it and then recombine in a week after some brood has hatched out leaving comb space. Obviously, trying other methods first to KEEP them from wanting to swarm would be the way to go, but I thought it was a better option than allowing a full-scale swarm if they were bound and determined... 

On the box thing, I thought bees produced better if they were slightly crowded--that you weren't supposed to add 3 supers at a time. The books I've read so far say to add a super when the last one is about 75-80% filled. Is that incorrect?

Please correct me if I'm wrong--This is why I started this page!


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Tara said:


> --Yes, but that final split is in June/July, when no one wants nucs anymore. Also, nucs around here sell for ~$75-100. If I can make some prior to that during the first 2 rounds of queen-rearing, I'll be selling those along with the queens. I want the post-solstice queens in my build-up nucs.


Here's something that I've been entertaining. And I must confess I'm still in the process of perfecting this plan.

Here in SE Missouri, it's hard to make splits/nucs and have them do anything substantial. And believe me, I've had a host of issues with inclement shipping weather, bum queens, poor acceptance and I'm constantly fighting the mud every spring. Splitting in the spring is a challenge all to itself.

I prefer to abstain from splitting, keeping my hives very strong. I work to prevent swarming and provide ample super space. I also start my harvest a little early and sort through the supers taking the capped frames and leaving the uncapped to mature.

Then once our flow dries up around the 4th of July and I pull those last supers, I make my splits. This year I finally turned the corner on my queen rearing techniques. My plan is to split my hives in July, requeen with my home-raised queens, then take these hives through the rest of the summer and carry them over to the next spring. From these hives, I will have nucs to sell. I will also still have a lot of unsplit hives dedicated to honey production.

I think of it as this way: If I had 20 hives in the spring, I work to maximize my honey production. Once harvested, I split those 20 into 40 hives. The following spring I dedicate 20 hives for honey production and sell nucs from the other 20 hives. Those nuc hives should have sufficient bees and brood where you could buy new queens and requeen the queenless remnant and still have your own source of replacement nucs. Or you could let them raise their own queens.

The possibilities are endless. In my mind, I think it's a better deal to over-winter a single and sell the queen and some frames of brood as a nuc in the spring.

All the best,

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>It was my impression that with an artificial swarm, you could control the number of bees you removed--maybe a quarter instead of half--or you could do it a little early, so they have time to build back up.<

I think it's the brood you remove, not the bees that has the greatest effect. That brood will be the honey gatherers in a month...which is when your honey flow is in Virginia. Right? You have a spring and early summer flow and then what? 

> Obviously, trying other methods first to KEEP them from wanting to swarm would be the way to go, but I thought it was a better option than allowing a full-scale swarm if they were bound and determined... The books I've read so far say to add a super when the last one is about 75-80% filled. Is that incorrect?<

Don't believe everything you read. How much water is there in nectar? 80% or a little more. How much water is ther in honey? 18% or a little less. Where did all the water go? Realize that it takes two supers of nectar storage space to make one super of honey. 

So the fact that you wait until your super is 75% filled is asking...no, almost insuring that your best colonies will swarm. So the book also says to split them. And if you live in an area with an early flow? Or where the early flow fails and there's nothing for them to build up on? Or if the late flow fails and by the time they're built upo there's nothing there? 

I think splitting your bees should be the last resort in swarm control, not the first.


----------



## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Tara said:


> --Yes, but that final split is in June/July, when no one wants nucs anymore. Also, nucs around here sell for ~$75-100.


Not true at all ... June for sure you can sell nucs no problem. Many Spring made nucs are not even ready until June in fact. You can sell nucs even in July to folks who know what they want. Also, the price range is more like up to $125 which is what one outfit sold deep overwintered nucs for in the region for two years and sold out every year.

I admire your enthusiasm... now your experience just has to catch up with it!


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Thanks Mike! I'll remember that about the supers--I guess I need to read more variety of books. The beginner ones are more about keeping bees alive than honey production, I guess. So how many supers to you put on at once? 3, and keep adding as they fill?

Yeah, from what I've picked up it seems like nectar flow here builds thru late April (that's usually when swarm season starts), is really going by the first of May, and continues to about mid-June if the moisture sticks around. This year, everything dried up in early June and we didn't get ANY rain for like a month solid. Late June-Aug are typically dearth, with a very small fall flow from the goldenrod in Sept, if it gets chilly enough at night.


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

"June for sure you can sell nucs no problem. Many Spring made nucs are not even ready until June in fact. You can sell nucs even in July to folks who know what they want."

Well, my last split will be made in June, so the queens won't be laying until July, and I'd like to evaluate and let them build for at least a week or so. I'll sell as many late July nucs as I can, but I didn't think there'd be much of a market at that point. If so, great!

Guess I got my nucs cheap--Both of them were $70... one worked out great, the other is okay... Heh, overwintered early nucs, I'd charge more for those too!


----------



## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Tara said:


> Because our season is so short, I plan on trying the 'dequeening' method, so the hive is broodless and raising their virgin for most of our flow, and then declines in numbers as we enter the mid-summer dearth. Anyone do that regularly?


Instead of dequeening and loosing 30 plus days of brood rearing, try requeening with your OW nucs. Pull the nuc off the parent hive and replace it with the queen from the OW nuc. This worked well for me for the most part. Read Mike's article in Feb (?) 2009 Bee Culture on this idea and bee bombs.

One super on April 1st is a good rule of thumb for our area. Oh, and going through each hive every 14 days or less... I had mixed results with that, but better results than not doing it at all (that is to say not perfectd, but far fewer hives swarmed and I raised some nice queens from the cells I pulled out)


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Winevines--I'm not pulling the queen out to get queens, I'm pulling her out so the bees arent' feeding a bunch of brood during most of the nectar flow. Since the season only lasts a little more than a month, if I pull her in late April, hive numbers will still grow until mid-May, and as the brood empties out, the supers will provide more space to dry nectar. It wouldn't work as well if we had a longer season, but since we don't I might as well get honey from my honey production hives, and leave the brood-rearing to the bee-factory hives. I figure I'll try it both ways (keeping queen in vs pulling her out) and see what happens.

First super on 1 April...putting that on the calendar, thanks!


----------



## standman (Mar 14, 2008)

Tara, I am going to try something different in 2011. I am going to add a super early on (probably mid-march) if there is any nectar flow (i.e. as soon as I can stop feeding). As soon as they begin to store nectar, I am going to add two supers between the first super and the brood box, incorporating a top entrance as well. My theory is that our flow is short and the bees need to store a lot of nectar that they can dehydrate over time. Don't know if it will work, but it is worth a try and should be educational.


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I'm thinking Mike Palmer gets about $140 for his nucs. Don't be afraid to ask $125. It's easier to drop your price than to try to increase it.

I've heard the bees will use 2-3 supers to dry down thin nectar. Then they move it and consolidate it into one box.

Remember this very valuable rule. The bees will not put honey into supers that are in storage. The bees may not fill them if you put them on the hive, but it is guaranteed that the bees won't fill the supers that are not on the hive. 

Don't set an April 1 date for supers. Bees don't go by calendars. Throw a couple supers on the moment you see dandelions. I know guys who will go back around checking hives in a week or so, and make sure the bees have 3 supers more than the one they are working in. If the hive is super strong, maybe add more. If I know I won't be back to a yard very soon, I have been known to stack on 6 or 7 supers if I have them to put on.

Note: It is my understanding that in SHB areas, giving bees multiple supers like this may be too much space for the bees to maintain, giving SHB a foothold for overrunning the hive. I do not have a SHB problem here, so I don't have to take management steps to deal with them yet.

_The books I've read so far say to add a super when the last one is about 75-80% filled. Is that incorrect?_

Normally the books say to add another super of FOUNDATION when the top super is 75%-80% drawn out. If you already have supers of drawn comb, get them on the bees.

_So how many supers to you put on at once? 3, and keep adding as they fill?_

How much time do you have to babysit the hives? I don't know how intense your flows are, but keep in mind that it's not uncommon for bees to add 10 pounds of honey per day in a decent flow. How fast are your boxes going to fill at that rate?


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Countryboy--thanks! I've been learned up on supers!

Can you say a little more about how you manage like you're making comb honey, for bulk honey production? Aren't 2 deeps full of brood better than one, so you get more bees? I thought the bigger the hive, the more efficient they did stuff. I also thought the only reason you packed them down for comb production was to make 'pretty' combs, that were completely filled out, esp if you were using Ross rounds or somesuch that the bees hate working in.


----------



## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

CB or MP, what do you guys do when you need to get more foundation drawn? Can you mix comb and foundation in the same super, with good results?


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

a. you need to be using drawn comb for honey supers
b. You want the queen to NEVER run out of room to lay (for me that is two deeps or more for brood)
c. If you can obtain swarms dump them into your production hive (queen and all) just merge them with newspaper. At the same time add a couple more supers. You want the largest population of workers possible.
d. If the hive is bearding, provide shade for the south and west sides of the hive and pop the top open a bit. Bearding bees are NOT working bees !

Fuzzy


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Aren't 2 deeps full of brood better than one, so you get more bees? _

Yep. When you consistently find hives like that, let me know. 

20 frames, with 6,000 cells per frame (large cell) is 120,000 cells. From egg lay to emergence is 21 days. 120,000/21 is 5714 eggs laid per day. A good queen will lay 2,000-3,000 eggs per day at the peak.

Ideally, you should give the queen just a little more space than a deep box. A deep box is a convenient size that's close, so many folks just give the bees a deep box. A Jumbo box is better, but they aren't very popular.

_I thought the bigger the hive, the more efficient they did stuff._

I don't know about efficiency. More productive perhaps. (IIRC, a hive population of something like 12K is the best at raising bees.)

_I also thought the only reason you packed them down for comb production was to make 'pretty' combs, that were completely filled out, esp if you were using Ross rounds or somesuch that the bees hate working in._

Yes, you want to limit the space the bees have to work so they complete combs quickly, so you can remove them before they get all tracked up. If you give comb honey hives too much space, they will start working on too many combs at once, taking longer for each comb and they will get stained cappings.

_Can you say a little more about how you manage like you're making comb honey, for bulk honey production?_

Comb honey hives generally run a single deep broodnest. If you run a single deep, there will be very little honey down in the broodnest. The queen will keep all the honey pushed up above the excluder, and stored in the supers.

A single deep is about all the room a queen needs to lay. It's a little undersized, so you run a slight chance of swarming, but if they do get to the point of swarming, usually the flow is almost over and you have already made your crop.

If you run double deeps, you will have about 60 pounds of honey mixed in with the brood. By running a single deep, that 60 pounds gets put up in your honey supers, and you can extract it but you have to feed syrup to replace the honey. If you run a double deep, you leave that 60 pounds of honey behind, but you don't have to feed the syrup. (Syrup is a heckuva lot cheaper than the 60 pounds of honey is worth.)

Just remember that if you do not have a flow when you pull the honey, the bees can starve within a couple days because they have no honey stores in the broodnest.

Here is a video clip in one of my beeyards. Pay no attention to it being about laying workers. Instead, look at my hive configuration. All of these hives are single deeps, with supers above an excluder. I don't have drawn comb in all my supers, so I put 2 or 3 drawn combs in every super, and the bees needed to draw out the other frames. I did my first pull in July, and averaged about one super per hive. This video was made since that first pull was done. 

I made a honey payment to the farmer that owns this land the other day. It was drizzling rain, but I stopped and popped a couple lids in the beeyard anyways. I still have not done my last pull and gotten the hives ready for winter yet. I didn't pop every lid, but there are a couple hives that are plugged out. (With that said, most hives did not have any activity in the top box.) The hives that were plugged out, had bees bearding outside the entrance in the drizzle.

These hives are all splits made from this spring's 2 pound packages.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf1qGiZh57Q


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_CB or MP, what do you guys do when you need to get more foundation drawn? Can you mix comb and foundation in the same super, with good results? _

Drawing very much comb cuts down on honey production. I've heard that drawing 10% is usually ok, and in a good year bees can draw out 20% without much impact on honey production.

I'm still trying to get more combs drawn out in my supers, so what I have been doing is putting 2 or 3 frames of drawn comb in a super, and the bees have to draw out the rest of the frames. Yes, this cuts down my honey production, but it gets frames drawn. (I would not do any less than 2 or 3 frames of drawn combs if you are using an excluder. Bees don't want to go through an excluder unless there is drawn comb above it.)

Another way to get combs drawn out is if you run 8 frames in your honey supers....add an extra frame with foundation (or foundationless) in the middle of the box and run 9 frames. After you extract, go back to 8 frames. For every 8 boxes you do this way, you get another box worth of combs.


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

"A single deep is about all the room a queen needs to lay. It's a little undersized, so you run a slight chance of swarming"

So 2 mediums should be perfect! good to know... Now all I need to do is pack in an 11th frame and get some small-cell drawn...

When you put in your 3-4 frames of drawn comb in with foundation, do you put all the drawn frames together, or put a frame of foundation between each? I'd heard that was a good way to get them to pull the drawn ones out even deeper and hardly pull the foundation... but otherwise I'd think they'd leave the foundation alone and just go vertical to the next super of drawn. I guess if you have enough flow they'll plug it up anyways...

Nice video! Thanks for posting.


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I generally mix the frames in the honey super. The bees tend to smokestack, (just work straight up like a column, rather than filling a box before working in the box above it.) so the outside frames are often ignored, so it's harder to get outside frames drawn.

I find that if the bees are working in the frames of drawn comb, if I add a frame of foundation/foundationless between the drawn comb, the bees just build the frames of drawn comb fatter with honey. If the bees aren't working in the drawn combs yet (add a whole box mixed together) the bees will draw comb on the undrawn frame and it's uncommon for my bees to ignore the undrawn frame and make the drawn combs fatter.


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> _I'm still trying to get more combs drawn out in my supers, so what I have been doing is putting 2 or 3 frames of drawn comb in a super, and the bees have to draw out the rest of the frames. Yes, this cuts down my honey production, but it gets frames drawn. (I would not do any less than 2 or 3 frames of drawn combs if you are using an excluder. Bees don't want to go through an excluder unless there is drawn comb above it.)_


_

we do the same thing, 2-3 frames of drawn and the rest foundation. Its amazing how fast they will draw comb and store honey on a big flow like orange blossom. We also incorporate some drone foundation... they draw and store honey in the drone cells, after extraction these frames are returned to brood boxes for drone production all spring and summer long._


----------



## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

One thing that has helped me to maximize honey production is to get into the mind set of looking ahead. The here and now helps me to make about 10% of any decisions. When it's fall/winter prep, I am looking at winter survival.
When I open the hives in the spring and start to assess the colonies, I am already planning the summer flow.
Always looking ahead at what could and should be. 

The nice thing about looking ahead, and planning and having a goal, like maximizing honey production, one begins to look at bees differently. I say this because one can not maximize honey production with a sick hive. Also, when having a goal such as maximizing honey production, that goal can not be achieved without counting our pennies on the expenses...otherwise, why maximize production.
Can not have one without the other


----------



## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Tara said:


> Winevines--I'm not pulling the queen out to get queens, I'm pulling her out so the bees arent' feeding a bunch of brood during most of the nectar flow. Since the season only lasts a little more than a month, if I pull her in late April, hive numbers will still grow until mid-May, and as the brood empties out,.... First super on 1 April...putting that on the calendar, thanks!


our honey season is about 45 days give or take. I would never dream of pulling the queen out to maximize production. Because along with production comes knowing when those winter bees start.
Our first super is in July. We do the final pull Aug 30th. August 1 the queen is starting to lay her winter bees
June one eggs will be the August 1 foragers in the hive.
by reducing the eggs in the hive for a week or so, we end up with a period of missing bees. 
What i am so desperately trying to say is...when that brood that should have emergged, but did not, one misses the cleaners for a bit, then they cleaners that should have been there which become nurse bees are not there, then the security is not there, then there is a gap in foragers.

What happens is, the next group of bees that hatch will have to mature faster so they can gather for the hive. This will reduce the life span of the bee. It will take several generations for the bees to play catch up. If this happens, the winter bees will not get the nutrition they need as an egg or larva. This will cut into their life span over winter...

clear as mud. What i am trying to say is the balance of the hive gets out of balance, the bees have to play catch up, shortening their life span, hurting the hive when the bees need them the most.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Tara said:


> First super on 1 April...putting that on the calendar, thanks!


How about putting on 2 to start?


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

brac said:


> CB or MP, what do you guys do when you need to get more foundation drawn? Can you mix comb and foundation in the same super, with good results?


I've tried many ways to improve the production of comb honey. I've knocked colonies down into singles to crowd them, and I've built colonies up into massive units. 

All things taken into consideration, the best way for me is:

As I've already said, I add my first two supers early. This helps so with early swarming I can't repeat it enough. I reverse hive bodies at Dandelion to help with swarming and super above to insure the queen feels she can easily move up onto empty comb, and the bees feel they have extra room above for nectar storage. Large populous colonies are what's most important in drawing foundation...making good cut comb honey.

So, you have these strong colonies with a couple medium supers of drawn comb on top. The bees store that early flow in the top super, and maybe the queen lays a bit in the bottom. Maybe you felt it necessary to add a third to the top. Whatever.

When the main flow...or flow you want to get into your comb honey supers starts or just before...you remove supers, add a super of foundatiuon...cut comb or wired for extracting, and replace the supers. Bees always draw foundation best just above the broodnest. And with a good flow on, they'll fill it with nectar and not place drones there.

Not every colony is worth trying to do this with. Only those strong enough will work. These are the colonies in each yard that are packing those first supers added and are running out of room for nectar storage. I want Basswood and Sweet Clover in my cut comb. Those flows start about the end of June for me. My main flow usually starts about the 21st. So, that's when I add my comb honey supers. Takes me a couple weeks to get them all on so I have to start a bit early with supering. With only a few bees or a few yards, you could start right on the beginning of the flow.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Countryboy said:


> I'm thinking Mike Palmer gets about $140 for his nucs. Don't be afraid to ask $125.


$120 actually. Couldn't come up with nearly enough. Don't be afraid to ask $125.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Countryboy said:


> Remember this very valuable rule. The bees will not put honey into supers that are in storage.


The quote is what I fondly call a Busterizm...

"Bees never store honey in supers left in the barn."
_Buster Smith, Antwerp NY, Loris SC_


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Got any more Busterizms Mike? He'd get a kick out of being quoted to beekeepers on the internet. Don't ya think?


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> $120 actually. Couldn't come up with nearly enough. Don't be afraid to ask $125.


Heh... even if they don't have Mike Palmer queens? Dosn't that subtract at least $20 of value? 

I'll see what looks fair in the area. Had one local woodware distributer offer to buy them for $85 to resell, because he already had a customer base built up. But if they're going for $115+, I can probably find my own customers...

Thanks for the price tips!


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Only if they don't have a queen at all. $20.00 queens are not uncommon.


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

If you want another price tip on nuc pricing, check out the price of natural cell/small cell nucs. You can normally tack on another $25 if the nucs are small cell/natural cell.

I don't know how much demand there is for small/natural cell nucs, but if you use 4.9 cells, or natural cell....chargean extra $25 a nuc, and the extra unsold nucs you have you can sell for normal price.

All the guys selling nucs that I have talked to say they can't provide enough nucs, so it appears there is more demand than supply right now.


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Also, decide if you are selling 4 frame or 5 frame nucs, and price accordingly. I think Mike's are 4 framers.


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Well, mine are all medium equipment, so I'd go with 5. I don't THINK people sell 3-4 frame meds...


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

The standard size frames for nucs are deep frames. Medium nucs will be a niche market - so I can't say much about the demand for medium nucs. I know there is some demand, but I don't know how much the market will bear if you start supplying nucs.

Regardless of what you do in beekeeping, always have a Plan B. Plan A may not go as you planned.


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Lol..

plan B: Have an 80 lb weight nearby and then sell them a medium super.

Or just wait until the people who wanted deeps and didn't get them are willing to settle for meds. 

Seriously tho, at least out here I think the medium market is growing. I've seen several beeks offering med (or all med) nucs for sale.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't know how I missed this thread until now, but you might be interested in this - HAB conference class on honey production.

Mr. Holcombe also spoke recently at a local club meeting, and mentioned that during this just passed season his most productive hives were over wintered as 2 10 frame medium boxes. I've also heard some established bee keepers say they were interested in going to all mediums. It may be a niche at this point but it seems like a growing niche.


----------



## stripstrike (Aug 29, 2009)

Tara said:


> Lol..
> 
> plan B: Have an 80 lb weight nearby and then sell them a medium super.
> 
> ...


I got medium frame nucs this summer, they were both 8 frames and ran $120. My understanding is an 8 frame medium nuc is about equal in size/volume to a five frame deep nuc. I've heard of one supplier here in the northeast that sells 5 frame medium nucs, treatment free on natural cell size, for $100. I felt better about the full eight frames and have found another supplier for next years medium nucs, also 8 frame.


----------



## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Tara said:


> Seriously tho, at least out here I think the medium market is growing. I've seen several beeks offering med (or all med) nucs for sale.


I don't know why, but many of the bee clubs (not ours though) in NoVA teach mediums so there is a large market for mediums in the area.

Also re pricing, from my limited experience in this area, the education among nuc customers is growing, and folks are starting to ask more questions about the nuc, what it's made of, queen source, etc. Overwintered nucs sell for more than nucs made up in Spring. One club produced some nice guidelines about nucs and we modified it to help educate folks about buying nucs since there is no real standard and so much variability in the product (as you yourself experienced!). Some folks just throw packages into nuc boxes and sell them a month later. And some folks sell two story mediums and others sell just one story mediums for the same price. Huge variability still in the nuc market. In VA, all nucs are to be inspected before sale, but there is huge variability in that as well. Plus they are being inspected for disease, not strength.


----------



## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Countryboy said:


> All the guys selling nucs that I have talked to say they can't provide enough nucs, so it appears there is more demand than supply right now.


No question about that. Even among the gals selling nucs : -) 
Seriously, there is a huge market for nucs in this region. After I was done selling the nucs I planned I still had a few more I was able to make up come June (just luck with the bees). After sending out an email to my club, all were sold in 2-4 hours.

My main concern is variability of the "product" and some folks who are selling crap- especially to new beeks. As more and more folks learn how to make their own nucs, I would think that your reputation (quality, customer service, etc.) is ultimately going to come in to play in terms of the nuc market. That will be a good day when we get there!


----------



## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

"One club produced some nice guidelines about nucs and we modified it to help educate folks about buying nucs since there is no real standard and so much variability in the product."

Could you post your 'guidelines for nucs' for new beeks? I think I have a general feel by now for what a healty nuc looks/sounds like, but I'm the first to admit there is plenty I still don't know! If I'm going to be offering some for sale next year, it would be nice to have a list of things to look for so I can hold them back another few weeks or cull/requeen them if necessary instead of selling them.


----------



## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

I can talk to you off forum about it


----------

