# Should I leave multiple queen cells in a queenless hive?



## Tommy Tip Top (May 27, 2011)

I have a queenless colony of black bees. Last week there was sealed brood (no eggs) and no queen evident. A week later, there is no evidence of a queen, no brood and 5-6 swarm cells. The colony seems to be the same size as previously. If you were me, would you cut back all the queen cells except for one, or would you leave them all to mother nature? Any advice would be appreciated.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

leave them all.

Johnny


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

If I think it is a swarm situation I usually remove all but one queen cell, but I have other colonies to fall back on for support if the virgin doesn't mate and return to lay. If you have no other colonies for support or if you think it may be a supersedure or emergency requeening , it may be prudent to leave all of the cells.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Something doesn't compute with the math...not likely that you have capped queen cells and no brood. Regardless, I never cut out swarm cells as they are usually high quality cells (of course assuming the genetics are good). So, do not cut out the cells. If anything, split them into nucs to improve your odds at getting a mated queen.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Just where is the queen cells located? in the middle of the frame or down at the bottom? 

If in the middle, then they are supersedure cells. Meaning the old queen is/was either dead, dying, or hurt. She could also be a failing queen due to running out of sperm.

If on the bottom of the frame, then they are getting ready to swarm and by now it is too late, but you can try to stop them by removing all the q-cells and placing some in a split or two. They will be taken care of by the split bees and would be the new queens of those nucs. 

No matter what you do, keep updating us and asking more questions.


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## djei5 (Apr 24, 2011)

Are the cells capped? If not, look in them and make sure there is brood in them. If you truly dont have a queen, and if there is no brood in the queen cells, and you dont have 3 day or younger brood, then you should probably either buy a new queen, or start introducing a frame of brood per week for three weeks if that is available to you.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Those arent swarm cells, they are drone cells from laying workers that they have tried to rear queens from in a desperate attempt to get a queen... it will not work to their benefit though... try a frame of eggs from another colony each week until they get it right and hatch a emergency queen... if you can find someone that can draw some cells for you, or if you want to take a shot at it yourself, that will work too... they will most likely take the cells and you can simply graft a few cells from another hive nearby and plant them into the trouble hive near what would be the brood area and they will take care of the rest... cut out the cells that are in there first though...

If you would like to see what I am describing in the first sentence for your own learning experience, simply cut the cells out carefully and place the tip of them into queen cages that with about seven attendants in the cages... leave them wedged between the frames of that hive and go ahead and graft or plant the true queen cells, or insert a frame of eggs from another hive... then come back a few days later to check the progress and see what has hatched from the cells that you caged... Surprise! It's a Boy! Lol.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

rrussell, I never heard of bees using drone larvae to make queens. I thought the bees knew the difference in worker and drone larvae. 

Tommy, let us know what happens to your colony.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

They do, but the do try out desperation on occasion... actually have a study going currently after hearing about the "lusbees conspiracy" lol.. I had to run a serious test to see if we could find absolutely ANY percentage of those sort of traits in European bees from 20 suppliers across the US... each cell is being put in a three hole cage and incubators are used to hatch them... so far, nothing but drones...1,200 of them... I will post pics as soon as I get back in from the field.


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

If I have a queenless hive with multiple queen cells on multiple frames I would do a split. This provides insurance in case one of the hatched queens does not make a successful return from mating flight. This is especially true for colonies with key genetic traits that I am atempting to expand in my operation.


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## Hive Onthehill (Jun 11, 2011)

Alright people. I know it's getting late and I'm getting tired but can you slow down, go back, and start from scratch to explain the differance between the swarm cells and the supercede cells. Also if I was following what was being said I have the same situation and was stated to begin with, however being inexperienced I took my cells of the side of the frame. What should I do know or should I just wait and see?


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

rrussell, I will be waiting anxiously.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Supersedure cells are in the middle of the frame of brood. They are to replace a bad queen due to no more fertile eggs, got hurt and no longer able to lay eggs, got killed when beekeeper manipulated the frames, lost her pheromone, or something like that.

Swarm cells are located at the bottom of the brood area near the bottom of the frame. They are to replace the queen when she takes off with 1/2 to 3/4 of the colony because it is too crowded in the hive.

Hope this helps.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

I concur with Mr. Russell. The hive had no eggs and larva to start queen cells and you said it was queenless. So the only eggs the bees had to work with were laying worker eggs, unfertilized. No mystery here. It's a proven fact that they'll sometimes try to raise a queen from LW eggs. Just start giving them eggs and open brood from another hive and hopefully they'll start real queen cells. There aren't many other choices; if you try to introduce a mated queen they'll kill her immediately.

Hive Onthehill; swarm cells usually result when the queen has no room left to lay eggs or the hive is extremely crowded with bees. The cells are normally found at the bottoms of the frames but can be anywhere; you have to look at the circumstances to determine the type of cells. A strong hive can have up to 3 dozen or more swarm cells and the swarm usually leaves as the cells are capped. Supersedure cells are far fewer in number, sometimes only one, and are mostly found on the face of the combs. The bees start them when they perceive a failing or bum queen. As far as cutting cells it's a bad practice. If they were swarm cells and the swarm has left there is no queen left to lay eggs to start new cells, therefore the hive is doomed to queenlessness, unless you add eggs. If you cut supersedure cells the queen is normally still laying and the bees have resources to start other cells and they will, so it does no good to keep cutting them. They want a new queen so don't interfere!


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## Hive Onthehill (Jun 11, 2011)

I sometimes learn things the hard way but they sink in a little better, guees I won't do that again. It sounds like I'm on a wait and see method.

Thanks for the explanations.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Yep, like Dr. Russell said, I've seen queenless bees raise drones in queen cells from laying workers' eggs. Very misleading and disappointing - to say the least. Thelytoky is uncommon, except, of course, with _Apis mellifera capensis_.


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