# developing good queens



## jxbeeman (Apr 12, 2005)

i'm curious on what some of you believe is the best way to produce a good queen. like is it better to have a queenless cell builder colony packed full of bees or to have a queen right colony that is of decent strength to build the queen cells. I just got the nicot system so i was curious on your inputs and ideas of what is the best method/your method in developing good size queens. thanks


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

The key is to have a strong colony that is going to build the queens cells. This must be a populated colony. Start feeding early spring before you rear. Feed sugar water and pollen to get them started. 

I also think it is important to rear more queens then you think you will need so you can pick the queen cells that look the nicest and healthiest. 

Timing is another issue. I think that queens raised early in spring to satisfy buys of queens are not as good because the first round of drones are usually not as good as say drones in may or june.

Timing is critical as well. Make sure you know and understand your timeline and stick to it.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

I utilize a queenless cell builder. I have a half size one for small batchs and a large one for when I get a bit more ambitious. Like Chef sez you will need to plan for more cells than you need. tecumseh's rule, make a guess as to need and multiply by 3.

start feeding early all components that are involved in the queen rearing operation; cell builder, cell finisher and queen mother. a small continuous gulp of sugar water spread out over a longer timing horizon is much preferred to large irregular gulps.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You need:

Pollen,
Nectar and
Wall to wall bees

Queenless seems pretty reliable to get them to start the cells. Converting to queenright has the advantage that the cell starter/builder doesn't burn out from being queenless.

I've gotten good queens from anything from a two frame nuc to a four box hive. Either has to have nectar, pollen and wall to wall bees. The two frame nuc will only make four or five good queens. The four box hive will make 30 or 40.

Typically my cell starter/finishers are just a couple of eight frame boxes busting with bees.

Did I mention you need a high density of bees?


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I prefer the queenless colony, a cut down single. Also, my experience with this system has the bees raising queens from newly hatched larvae. Transferring eggs has never worked for me. The cell cups are empty.

Not sure why, it's just what happened to me.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Transferring eggs has never worked for me. 

Transferring eggs has never worked for anyone that I know of.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

michael bush sezs:
Transferring eggs has never worked for anyone that I know of. 


tecumseh replies:
I wonder if he could be talking about the smith system???


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

No, not the smith system, and it's good to know transfering eggs hasn't worked for anyone else using the Jenter system. Now I don't feel so bad.

When I first used my Jenter system (purchased from Mann Lake), I set the queen into the egg laying unit on Day 0, then on Day 4 when the larvae are just hatching or just hatched (thinking 3.5 days in the egg stage), I transfered the cell cups, using the cell cup holders from the egg laying unit to the top bar with the cell cup fixtures. Some of these cell cups held the larvae, barely visible in a bed of white liquid, some cups were dry with a barely visible egg.

My queenless unit was prepared ahead of time and much to my chagrin, I was only getting 3 queen cells out of every ten cell cups. The more I tried it, the more I discovered only transfered larvae work. Tranferring eggs, which I thought would guarantee me age-appropriate larvae, just didn't work.

Part of my early problem was I put the queen in on Day 0 and left her in the egg laying unit until I came back to take cell cups on Day 4. Now I return on day 1 and release her, or, as some queens are a little balky at laying eggs in the unit (even when I place the unit in the colony for 24 hours to "warm" up"), I may wait until Day 2 and release her, then come back on Day 5 which still gives me larvae 24-hours old.

And I confess I'm still learning how to use this unit.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Tranferring eggs, which I thought would guarantee me age-appropriate larvae, just didn't work.

Nope. It doesn't work. Just larvae work.

>Part of my early problem was I put the queen in on Day 0 and left her in the egg laying unit until I came back to take cell cups on Day 4.

You can, but you end up with a lot of double eggs and you lose 3 days of the queen laying in the hive. I release her the next day.

> Now I return on day 1 and release her, or, as some queens are a little balky at laying eggs in the unit (even when I place the unit in the colony for 24 hours to "warm" up"), I may wait until Day 2 and release her

If it's been used before and has a good smell then she usually used it fine, but if I come back the next day and she hasn't laid it up, I'll wait one more day.

> then come back on Day 5 which still gives me larvae 24-hours old.

I try not to have the larvae that old. Day four seems to work with only a few that are still eggs. But I have been known to put it back in the hive for 24 hours with just the eggs and then transfer some more on day 5.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

<the first round of drones are usually not as good as say drones in may or june.>

Okay no one else is asking so I will. Isaac, where did you get that? I can't argue it either way. I just never heard it before.

Hawk


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Actually I'd like to raise some earlier queens because the drones tend to be more of the black ferals and less of the Italians. The ferals actually overwinter some drones and start rasing some earlier than the Italians. But the bees just haven't built up enough that early for me to have enough bees for mating nucs and cell builders and cell finishers. It takes a lot of bees to raise queens. About the first of May they have built up well enough for me, but before that they just aren't that strong yet. This year could be different since it's been so warm.

There are a lot MORE drones in the swarm season. And that's probably better insurance of well mated queens.


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

I think it's more a matter of more drones being available later in the season plus more oportunities for mating flights (ie. good weather). Of course in some areas this may not be completely true. A severe dearth will stop a hive from rasing drones and workers may even start kicking them out.

-Tim


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

hawk ask:
Okay no one else is asking so I will. Isaac, where did you get that? I can't argue it either way. I just never heard it before.


tecumseh chimes in:
my understanding it has to do with developing sexual maturity in the drones. it seems like to me tha abc-xyz talks about the maturation of drones requiring from 2 to 3 weeks.


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## Hook (Jun 2, 2002)

Developing a good queen starts with its genetics. If it has the genetics from your area, you have a good start. Then you can apply the basics of queen rearing.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Hook (or whoever else is out there),

What are your local genetics? I have a have time telling because most of my home raised queens tend to keep looking like the Italians crosses that I buy.


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## Tors (Jan 6, 2006)

Why do you need wall to wall bees when most times if you give queenless bees eggs or youg lavae, they only raise the queen cells. ?

Alex (K142)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Because wall to wall bees will make a lot of very well fed and well developed queen cells. Yes, you can give any queenless bees some larvae and they will raise some queen cells. It's all about quality and quantity.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

Different queen rearing methods are designed for different beekeeping priorities and resources. A method that quickly yields a large number of cells will have different colony requirements than one that yields a smaller quantity over a much longer time frame.

Research has shown that it takes about 200 five to ten day old bees to raise a cell. For a single cell bar, that would be about two pounds of bees. A five frame nuc would look somewhat empty with just two pounds of bees.

But for four cell bars, eight pounds of bees would be required. A five frame nuc with that many bees would be wall to wall plus! But a double deep hive with that many bees wouldn't be overflowing:>)

Hives can have too many bees when rearing queens, especially if they are used on an extended basis. Queen rearing methods that insure enough young bees are available, while reducing the total bee population(old bees), are much easier to work and consistly yield better cells.

I've tested just about every queen rearing method available. And I invented a couple of my own. :>)Many of them are suited for a particular circumstance/condition and are often very unsuitable for other situations.

But there's one method, I've modified, that is simple, scalable, flexible, fault tolerant, doesn't require alot special equipment and is almost fool-proof. It's a simplified version of the New Taber Method which uses a queenless starter/rearer and a support hive.

These same concepts can be used in a single deep which is split into a duplex. One side is treated like a queenless starter/rearer and the other like a support hive. This is the method I currently use as I no longer need to raise thousands of cells.

I'll make a web page describing this method and add the photos when I can get them this spring. I'll let you guys know when it's available.

Regardless of the rearing method, using pesticide treated hives for queen rearing produces inferior queens that are poorly mated and quickly superceded. Grafting yields will be significantly reduced, expecially if the hives have been treated with checkmite.

Regards
Dennis

[ February 06, 2006, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: B Wrangler ]


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

The New Taber Method?

Not having heard of it, I look forward to your website! More power to ya!

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

Grant,
The "New Taber Method" can be found in "Breeding Super Bees" by Steve Taber, page 29. Published by The A.I.Root Co. Medina, OH 44256, 1987 copyright.
Frank


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## divebee (Mar 15, 2006)

Last summer I tried transferring some eggs on a small scale into cell cups. A funny thing happened, as I was doing this at a hive, with a frame propped up some bees on it. I had an egg on the end of the grafting needle and a bee swooped in and snatched the egg. I couldnt believe it, it happened pretty quick. Later I had a bee take one but not in such a hurry. Many other bees nearby didnt seem interested. Seems only some have a duty toward eggs, maybe nurse bees. Anyway I had poor results transferring/grafting with eggs. I know some of you think I'm pulling your leg... Ok thats my story though.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

divebee;

well ther is a "theory" among some that Bees can rob eggs but this "theory" has not been proven but think about it if they can carry pollen on in their pollen sacs why not an egg ?
I have seen Mullet seeds on the landing board of the hive and my bird feeder is over 200 yards from the hive soooo who knows what all our girls can do!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Transfering eggs is not very (if at all) effective. Transfering just hatched larvae works much better.


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