# Breeder queens to play with



## beebreeder (Nov 24, 2009)

JBJ said:


> Occasionally we like to bring in some breeder stock from outside sources. This year we went with 3 more VSH from Harbo and 2 Caucasians from Cobey. These should complement what we have going nicely and keep genetic diversity up. The "Caucasica" from Sue should be particularly interesting.


Is this with a plan to get treatment free stock or just stock improvement and genetic diversity


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## ptmerrill (Jul 24, 2012)

If I order queens from you can I specify what breeder queen they come from?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Do you have the info on the Caucasians or are they the ones out of the wsu old world germplasm.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

beebreeder said:


> Is this with a plan to get treatment free stock or just stock improvement and genetic diversity


These two goals are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Any stock we work with will be evaluated for mite tolerance.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

The Caucasica stock is derived from the germplasm importation program that WSU initiated 2 or 3 years ago. From what I gather there should be more propolis and longer tongues.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

"If I order queens from you can I specify what breeder queen they come from?" ptmerrill 

Yes we color code every breeder and actually mark her daughter cells before they are placed. We have some clients who require sister queens for research purposes like at OSU. We usually have a 12-15 or so selected breeders we graft from in a season so an individual grafting session may typically only contain 3 or 4 mothers. It would be a matter of specifying in advance which one you are interested in and lining up your order with the appropriate graft cycle.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

JBJ said:


> The Caucasica stock is derived from the germplasm importation program that WSU initiated 2 or 3 years ago. From what I gather there should be more propolis and longer tongues.


I got some F1 queens from this stock. Propolis was no heavier than my Carni hives. Don't know about the longer tongues.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

camero7 said:


> I got some F1 queens from this stock. Propolis was no heavier than my Carni hives. Don't know about the longer tongues.


Do your Carnis collect much propolis? Where did you get them? 

The bee industry has been selecting away from heavy propolis gathering for a very long time since it can make have manipulations quite sticky. This may have been a mistake in light of the general usefulness of propolis in sealing, its antimicrobial nature, and helpfulness to the bees in building SHB prisons. I have heard that some lines of pure Caucasians can collect 30+ oz propolis a year as compared to 4-8 oz in other lines of bees.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Hi John,

I got the queens from Full Bloom Apiaries in CT. http://www.fullbloomapiaries.com/

My Carni's vary. Some have heavy propolis but most are not that much more than some of my Pol-Line's. I agree that heavy propolis is a pain and I don't collect it for sale, so I wouldn't propagate a queen that does. That said the queens I got from Alan @ Full Bloom were not an problem in that regard. Good queens too with nice patterns.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I heard from Sue Cobey that the Caucasians she is working with are higher than average in propolis production.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

I believe Sue got Caucasian semen from Turkey. They couldn't get into Georgia to get semen due to the war. Hopefully Sue got semen from the mountain Caucasians not from the yellow Caucasian. My folks remember the yellow for the poor winter ability. The Mountain is a whole different bee however.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

JBJ said:


> Occasionally we like to bring in some breeder stock from outside sources. This year we went with 3 more VSH from Harbo and 2 Caucasians from Cobey. These should complement what we have going nicely and keep genetic diversity up. The "Caucasica" from Sue should be particularly interesting.


Hmmm.... :-(

First of all the harbo queens don't interest me in the least.
And "interesting" un proven stock doesn't either.
It is always a gamble when we buy queens fron a new source...
...but just willy / nilly falling through outerspace with no vector is just a no no.
:-/


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Why not the Harbo Harry??


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Brandy, i will soon be picking out my breeders from hives that stand out, head and shoulders, THE BEST of our outfit, based on honey production from 2012, , excellent patterns / populations and otherwise no obvious problems. And of course, gentlness.
We will get a good look at these queens in almonds and then again in March and then comes first graft.

Why would we assume that sending a big fat check for a breeder queen will produce anything better than that which I just decribed?
What could possibly be better in production than the best, based on track record?
Sorry, I just don't get it.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Harry,

No question that the classic approach that you reference is an excellent path forward to improving stock. In your case I suspect that you have a pretty large and robust population to select from, which helps with continued vigor and performance. However, if one doesn't have a large population to select from then that approach may not produce competitive results, true? If indeed true, then I see the only path forward is to selectively import stock. Even Sue Cobey who has been working with and improving the NWC for decades, recently felt the need to bring in Caucasian stock to further improve her stock. Seems to me that in the hands of the right breeder new stock is an extremely valuable asset. Of course good breeders will continue improvements and not be misled by temporary vigor resulting from out crosses. Breeding is a lifelong endeavor and sometimes new blood needs to be brought in. Seems to have worked before with Buckfast, right? 

I seem to recall some old posts that you were not so thrilled with VSH bees. Is that recollection true? Personally, having worked with VSH for several years, my perspective is that the VSH stock has improved dramatically in the past couple years. Although Glenn provided an incredibly great service to beekeeping, some of the early pure VSH Glenn stock (in my, and perhaps, isolated experience) was marginal. They would basically cannibalize themselves to death. I believe that others saw this same hyper-VSH behavior. Other sources of VSH now claim to have significantly improved the brood variability problem that was observed in early versions of the VSH stock. I'm not a commercial beekeeper, but some of the recent VSH stock is equal to any bee I've seen over the past 12 years. I am very hopeful that over time VSH will offer at least a partial solution to varroa.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Harry,

Your approach is tried and true. Do you mark all of your queens to track them?

To me, the value of a breeder queen is in the performance of her daughters. The best way to ensure a better than average return from daughters is to control the pedigree using insemination and evaluate the lines over time. When sister queens and progeny can be evaluated over multiple seasons, say 2, 3, 4 production years for the same queen/queens it gives a better idea of how the subsequent generations will perform. And by evaluating inseminated breeders into their third and fourth seasons I also have the opportunity to evaluate some of their daughters alongside them too. 

Genetics are not absolute, but it is nice to stack the odds in your favor.

Joe


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Thanks, Joe.
Here's what I'm griping about:
Several years ago we had a certain researcher / queen breeder speak at the Oregon Conference about SMR or VHS or whatever mite resistant queen of the day.
He made no bones about it, that in order to arrive at their goal, they STRICTLY FOCUSED ON THE SINGLE TRAIT.
Many of us worry that such efforts are turning back all of the hard work that has been done in the past to arrive at very good workable, productive and gentle stock.
If given a wish-list of traits that I want in my queens, mite resistance places DEAD LAST.
1) Good laying / pattern
2) Overwintering
3) Honey production
4) Gentlness
5) Not overly swarmy
6) No chalk, disease prone etc
7) Mite resistant.
Theres my list.
How does a Harbo queen do in light of that list?


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

AstroBee said:


> Harry,
> 
> Seems to me that in the hands of the right breeder new stock is an extremely valuable asset. Of course good breeders will continue improvements and not be misled by temporary vigor resulting from out crosses. Breeding is a lifelong endeavor and sometimes new blood needs to be brought in. Seems to have worked before with Buckfast, right?
> 
> .......some of the early pure VSH Glenn stock (in my, and perhaps, isolated experience) was marginal. They would basically cannibalize themselves to death.


Astro, two points:
One, when I hear that someone that I purchace queens from is going down that road I have to wonder, "Am I going to be buying direct daughters of this junk?"
The worst thing that can happen to a regular customer of a queen producer is to have everything change in a direction that is objectional.
Since my policy is never to bad-mouth queen producers, I won't mention names, but I have DROPPED two very well known producers because their stock went down the drain after years of excellent queens. Many of my peers dropped them at the same approximate time.
I have no proof, but I'm quite sure that they jumped on the banwagon and took their eyes off of good bees.

The second point is that if I can get bees that DO THEIR JOB as bees, I will DO MY JOB as a beekeeper and take care of the mites.
It is just not that hard to do.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Harry,

I hear your very sentiments repeatedly from "commercial beekeepers". They want stock that will produce! If I can sneak a little mite resistance/tolerance in there too that is fine, BUT don't sacrifice performance characteristics. 

However, I hear a very different story from the "hobbyist" crowd. They want bees that are bullet proof and if they produce that is good too. It is a real challenge to please all beekeepers.

Joe


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

JSL said:


> They want bees that are bullet proof.
> Joe


Who is shooting at the bees? :lookout:

Sorry but couldn't pass it up. 

However Harry and Joe - your thoughts make sense to me.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

HarryVanderpool said:


> took their eyes off of good bees.


Harry thanks for the reply. I certainly respect your knowledge and experience. As Joe pointed out, it must be difficult to serve two markets with different preferences. I suspect that a breeder whose customers are mainly hobbyists can focus on a different list of priorities that you listed above, where those who serve mostly commercial better darn well provide a bee that is productive and keep that product consistent year to year. I also believe that good queen breeders should (I think as Joe pointed out) have an incubator line(s) within their operation that is NOT for sale but used for evaluation purposes only. Over time, if proven desirable, this incubator line could be slowly integrated into an existing production line. Time certainly is against us, as these evaluations must be done across multiple seasons and in numbers to have statistical meaning. Certainly II is an essential tool for anyone attempting this level of breeding.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Hmmm.... :-(
> 
> First of all the harbo queens don't interest me in the least.
> And "interesting" un proven stock doesn't either.
> ...


Whoa! Who said anything about willy nilly. All stock we trial is thoroughly vetted and vigorously selected. That is how we got to where we are today... Pretty dang good bees from what I hear.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Brandy, i will soon be picking out my breeders from hives that stand out, head and shoulders, THE BEST of our outfit, based on honey production from 2012, , excellent patterns / populations and otherwise no obvious problems. And of course, gentlness.
> We will get a good look at these queens in almonds and then again in March and then comes first graft.
> 
> Why would we assume that sending a big fat check for a breeder queen will produce anything better than that which I just decribed?
> ...


This is how we do it to also. Except with the best producers I let the mites challenge them, do some sampling and pick the best that have the best buildup the following year(s).

You do bring up a good point though. Out of all the breeders I have ever purchased over the years none have ever been as good the ones selected from our own operation. This is to be expected considering acclimation to local conditions and management practices. We want to evaluate the daughters and hybrids and make selections from there.

Sometimes we just want to develop a specific trait in our "proven stock" and also avoid inbreeding. Many would argue that maintaining the maximum number of alleles is an essential breeding practice for honeybees to maintain high brood viability and keep genes in the population that may be useful in some future situation, condition, disease, or pest invasion. We never know what future pest or disease is around the bend. Diversity is good and essential in our bee population.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Thanks, Joe.
> Here's what I'm griping about:
> Several years ago we had a certain researcher / queen breeder speak at the Oregon Conference about SMR or VHS or whatever mite resistant queen of the day.
> He made no bones about it, that in order to arrive at their goal, they STRICTLY FOCUSED ON THE SINGLE TRAIT.
> ...


From what I have observed, quite well based on last years daughters and previous inclusions of VSH/SMR breeders over the years. Instead of turning back hard work, maybe we can stand on the shoulders of giants and reach even greater heights.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

" Thumbs Up Oregon Super Queens!

Here are a couple of pictures taken today December 21 of 5 frame nucs overwintered with Old Sol Oregon Super queens.
WOW am I ever happy with these queens so far.
Am I ever going to be glad to have these to use in almonds.
Super good job by John Jacob of Old Sol Industries, Rogue River Oregon!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ps50148d20.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ps6398faf3.jpg 
" Harry Vanderpool

We have incorporated some SMR/VSH plus Russian stock over the years to get here. There is a lot of other stock and heavy selection involved also. We really share the same needs in a bee that can do its job and pay the bills. As marker assisted selection becomes more widely available for honeybees we should see some rapid advances in bee breeding. I strive to produce a VERY productive bee that can maintain lower mite loads. I feel bee breeding is a life long quest and that it is good to strive for more.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Thanks, Joe.
> Here's what I'm griping about:
> Several years ago we had a certain researcher / queen breeder speak at the Oregon Conference about SMR or VHS or whatever mite resistant queen of the day.
> He made no bones about it, that in order to arrive at their goal, they STRICTLY FOCUSED ON THE SINGLE TRAIT.
> ...


Reading various threads it seems that 2 and 7 on this wish list are closely linked in reality.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

WBVC said:


> Reading various threads it seems that 2 and 7 on this wish list are closely linked in reality.


I dont think so. If the beekeeper does a beekeepers job, then mite resistance has little impact on overwintering. Just make sure there are little / no mites in the hive headed into winter. There are two trains of thought in that respect, one train of thought is 'let the bees deal with it', and the other train of thought is 'I will deal with the mites, and let the bees deal with winter'.


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