# Terramycin antibiotic for foulbrood--how to use?



## ThisBud4U (May 16, 2007)

I'm one of those beekeepers who likes to disturb his bees as infrequently as possible, so I want to be as prepared as I can be when I do open the hives to inspect for problems. I'm also one of those rare individuals who is cursed with a very sensitive nose, and when I smell around my hives, or sniff in the front door, there is a faint but distinct foul smell, like the smell you get when your bees have foulbrood. Strangely, my beehives (all two of them) seem very strong, and have seemed that way for a long time. So, I'm not sure if they have foulbrood or not, but I want to be prepared in case they do, so I bought some Terramycin. I was actually shocked at how easy it is to purchase antibiotics for animals. In any case, the directions say to use 200 mg per colony. That's a very small quantity. How in the world do you apply this stuff? Any help much appreciated. Thanks.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Are you sure it isn't fall nectar, possibly from goldenrod?


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

I'd second that goldenrod. Many questions about that in the fall. Smells bad, sour.

As to the use of it...usually the prescribed amount is mixed with a bunch of powder suger (I don't know how much or how important it is) and then sprinkled on the brood nest.

It can also be fed in sugar syrup although that has a short shelf life.

Some have made extender patties (with shortening and sugar) but that is strongly discouraged because it can (has) caused terra resistance.

Rick


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

First you test for it.....NEVER TREAT WITH ANTIBIOTICS AS A PRECAUTION.....that is how microbes develop immunity....you needlessly treat now and if foul brood does get a foothold later when the antibiotic is present the bacteria can change its drug receptors and tada....you started a resistant strain of foulbrood. Right now we have a MRSA (methicillin resistant staphlycoccus aureus) staph infection outbreak in kentucky......Does not effect our bees, but it does our kids and is really hard to treat..... These resistance come from over use/unnessicary use of antibiotics.


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## ThisBud4U (May 16, 2007)

bluegrass, I worked in an infectious diseases molecular biology lab for years, so I know the issues regarding antibiotic use better than most, and I completely agree that it is most unwise to use it as a preventative measure. However, in the event that my bees do have foulbrood I would like to try to treat them if possible. 

Speaking of southern CA, there's no goldenrod for many hundreds of miles at least from here. It's not impossible, however, that there's some other type of flower that's producing foul-smelling honey. We do have Brazillian pepper trees in abundance, which produce the worst honey I've ever tasted.

Well, if anyone has a specific technique for applying a mere 200 mg of antibiotic to an entire hive of bees, I'd love to hear how to do it. I suppose I could mix it with powdered sugar, but that seems so haphazard, random. How would you get it evenly distributed? Or maybe you wouldn't have to, if the bees would just eat it up from wherever you sprinkled it and spread it around the hive themselves? Maybe that's the idea.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

Send a sample of your comb that shows signs of disease to a bee lab for testing. If it is positive for afb you need to burn the hive. If you try to use TM to control you're only promoting to the problem. The only way to get rid of afb is to burn everything. Treating only suppresses outbreaks. In the meantime you may be spreading it as well as your bees.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

I will make some assumption bud4u...

I will assume you have one package of phizer's tm25 (the number represents the potency of the antibiotic). if so??? there are mixing directions (plus application instructions) on the bag, but basically you take the bag of tm25 and mix it with 2 pounds of poundered sugar. I typically do this in a very large zip lock bag and mix throughly by turning the bag over and over. now the fastest and easiest way to apply tm dust is to take your hive tool, take a scoop and lightly dust the end bars and outside frame at approximately the level of the hive where the primary brood area is located. redust twice more at about one week intervals.

and yes the idea is the bees consume the powdered sugar and tm and this then reduces the bacteria in not only their gut but also the gut of the bees they are feeding.

in somewhat disagreement with bluegrass, tm has been used for quite some time by commercial beekeepers as a way to proactively suppress foulbrood. every commercial bee keeper that I have know commonly incorporateds tm dust into their fall/winter management strategy. some states (at least this is my understanding) allow you to treat for foulbrood while other states will demand that all foulbrood infested hives MUST be burned.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

tecumseh said:


> I will make some assumption bud4u...
> in somewhat disagreement with bluegrass, tm has been used for quite some time by commercial beekeepers as a way to proactively suppress foulbrood. every commercial bee keeper that I have know commonly incorporateds tm dust into their fall/winter management strategy. some states (at least this is my understanding) allow you to treat for foulbrood while other states will demand that all foulbrood infested hives MUST be burned.


Some also state that their bees are healthier when using TM, that could be similar to cows growing faster when on anti-biotics. But also a good reason for developing resistance.

Antibiotics are easy to get...over the counter for fish and other small animals, farmers use a lot, and often the same thing that humans use. How are you going to get a prescription for those things anyway? Hello, doctor, I need a prescription because my beehive caught the.... ???

Rick


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## ThisBud4U (May 16, 2007)

tecumseh said:


> I will make some assumption bud4u...
> 
> I will assume you have one package of phizer's tm25 (the number represents the potency of the antibiotic). if so??? there are mixing directions (plus application instructions) on the bag, but basically you take the bag of tm25 and mix it with 2 pounds of poundered sugar. I typically do this in a very large zip lock bag and mix throughly by turning the bag over and over. now the fastest and easiest way to apply tm dust is to take your hive tool, take a scoop and lightly dust the end bars and outside frame at approximately the level of the hive where the primary brood area is located. redust twice more at about one week intervals.


Tecumseh, I'm glad to find someone who is familiar with the product. The bag I have is yellow and white, yes from Pfizer, but no mention of "25" potency anywhere I can find. The reason I started this thread is because the instructions on the bag were sketchy, but the more I look at those instructions, they're downright misleading. Let me explain: The instructions state as follows:
"Honey Bees. 200 mg /colony 
Administer in three applications of sugar syrup or three dustings at 4-to 5-day intervals. Apply dust on the outer parts or ends of the frames. See Residue Warnings. CONTRAINDICATION: Dusting of uncapped brood cells has been reported to cause death of larval honey bees. Do not dust uncapped brood cells. Residue Warning: For honey bees, this drug should be fed early in the spring or fall and consumed by the bees before the main honey flow begins to avoid contamination of production honey. Remove at least 6 weeks prior to main honey flow." 

OK, let's concentrate on the math, please. The instuctions on the bag clearly state 200 mg / colony. BUT, on the front of the bag, there are two numbers--one states that the bag weighs 181.4 grams, and then it also states, "This packet contains 10 grams of oxytetracycline HCL". 

I trust that my confusion is clear--which number do I use to calculate the 200 mg/ colony? And is that 200 mg to be spread over all three treatments, or are you supposed to use 200 mg per each treatment? Needless to say, the instructions are totally inadequate. 

So, let's take your numbers, Tecumseh. You said that you poured the entire bag into two pounds of sugar. Now, I'm not sure that you're using the same stuff as I got, because there's no mention of a potency of "25" on my bag, and you don't say how big your bag is. For the sake of argument, let's say that your bag is the same as mine. So, if you've got 10 grams of antibiotic in those 2 pounds of sugar, and you're using the recommended rate of 200 mg/ colony, then you could treat 50 colonies one time with that entire ziplock bag of sugar+antibiotic. Does that sound about right, Tecumseh?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

And this is why our tax dollars have to pay for programs like the CDC's "Get Smart: know when to use antiobiotics on the farm". 
Unregulated use of antibiotics in agriculture applications is amoung the top three reasons that drug resistance occures......The everybody does it mentality is what is going to force the government to start regulating agricultural antibiotics...... and then we can all wine because we have to take our beehives to the vet to get treatments that used to be obtainable over the counter..........


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

*Tecumseh's right !*

You can look in the Mann Lake Catalog or on their website. It will give you instructions on using Terramycin. 
Jim


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

this bud 4 U writes:
"Honey Bees. 200 mg /colony 
Administer in three applications of sugar syrup or three dustings at 4-to 5-day intervals. Apply dust on the outer parts or ends of the frames. See Residue Warnings. CONTRAINDICATION: Dusting of uncapped brood cells has been reported to cause death of larval honey bees. Do not dust uncapped brood cells. Residue Warning: For honey bees, this drug should be fed early in the spring or fall and consumed by the bees before the main honey flow begins to avoid contamination of production honey. Remove at least 6 weeks prior to main honey flow."

tecumseh replies:
three dusting at 4 to 5 day inverval is key and applying via sugar syrup is not recommendend due to quick deterioriation of the antibiotic.

you apply the product along the edges of the brood chamber (on the top bars) to limit harming brood. 


then bud 4 u adds:
I trust that my confusion is clear--which number do I use to calculate the 200 mg/ colony? And is that 200 mg to be spread over all three treatments, or are you supposed to use 200 mg per each treatment? Needless to say, the instructions are totally inadequate.

tecumseh replies:
I agree the instruction are a bit murky and confuse as much as inform. 

and then bud 4 u writes:
So, let's take your numbers, Tecumseh. You said that you poured the entire bag into two pounds of sugar. Now, I'm not sure that you're using the same stuff as I got, because there's no mention of a potency of "25" on my bag, and you don't say how big your bag is. For the sake of argument, let's say that your bag is the same as mine. So, if you've got 10 grams of antibiotic in those 2 pounds of sugar, and you're using the recommended rate of 200 mg/ colony, then you could treat 50 colonies one time with that entire ziplock bag of sugar+antibiotic. Does that sound about right, Tecumseh?

tecumseh replies:
first off it should be two pounds of powdered sugar and not just granulated sugar.

and yes my bag says 10 grams of product per bag.

I would be guessing as to the number of hives treated per bag + powdered sugar but my best guess would be somewhere between 50 and 60 hives (on less populated hives I typically use a bit less and on more populated hives a bit more)


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## ThisBud4U (May 16, 2007)

Thanks, Tecumseh, looks like we've finally got it figured out. bluegrass, you're quite correct--I wouldn't have had to ask these detailed questions if the instructions on the bag were clear and unambiguous. The fact that farmers (beekeepers are farmers) get so darn little support from the government is a crying shame. With even a minimal amount of accurate information, farmers could apply antibiotics when they're needed in the amount they're needed in without over-applying or mis-applying and thus creating resistance problems. The problem lies with the lack of respect given to farmers nationwide. We are, after all, the second most important professionals (after doctors) in the country. As the old Midwest saying goes, "Don't criticize the farmer with your mouth full."


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## ThisBud4U (May 16, 2007)

Flyer Jim, thanks for the link. Very useful!


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

thisbud4u writes:
With even a minimal amount of accurate information, farmers could apply antibiotics when they're needed in the amount they're needed in without over-applying or mis-applying and thus creating resistance problems.

tecumseh replies:
exactly.... although I would guess that the three times at 4-5 day interval recommendation would be something of a problem with commercial concerns with large numbers and limited labor resources.


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## Sherpa1 (Dec 10, 2005)

Bud4U
Try this link for mixing and dosage instructions:

http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/PDFs/Chemica1.pdf

Hope this helps.


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## ThisBud4U (May 16, 2007)

Sherpa, Thanks. Clear as a bell. These are the instructions that should have come with the package of Terramycin!


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