# Why or why not Carniolans?



## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

They are like puppies with wings. At least mines are...
Is odd when they shut down the brood. i thought i had done something really wrong. 




PyroBee said:


> For those who have Carniolans, what do you like and dislike. I Think next year I wan to re queen a few hives, to try something else. Where did you get yours from? Thanks!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Very nice bees for sure. Get good NWC stock and give them a try. I've kept them before and found that the did well in the southeast. Nice gentle bees. Pretty good on production too. I've only used Strachan for NWC, but there may be other quality suppliers out there.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Mine were gentle as could be as well, until the dearth. They were more touchy after that but not too bad. I like them a lot. They are much more honest than the Italians I used to have which would rob everything in sight. They are not big on robbing. The downside, which I am told is true but I have not seen it yet, is they swarm more.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I just got back from helping a novice who has carnies. She said she had went to do an inspection and saw five bees with mites on them. I decided to go give this first year keeper a hand. I found two medium supers full of honey and they had been extracted in August previously. The bees were real mild for being robbed on a late October day. I got a couple stings on fingers for going too fast and pinching folks. The two brood boxes were lead heavy and the brood was mostly hatched out. These bees were downsizing wonderfully. They had filled four medium supers which is a 150 pound crop and drawn and filled two deeps. I would say those are good all around bees! They produced at least as much as my bees which have become mostly Italian mutts and mine though not mean are a lot less forgiving than those carnies.


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## debcst5823 (Mar 12, 2014)

I got mine from a local beek in Worland,Wy. Bryant Honey. They are calm most of the time. They started heavy honey stores in July and October they are ready for winter. This was my first year, from 2 nucs had to combine due to one hive had a old queen not laying enough and the other was not storing much honey they have done very well together. Going buy a queen to split in spring and maybe get another hive.��


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

I tried two hives as Carnies this year, but a bear attack pretty well wiped me out. I'll tell you what though, A carnie queen can fly 40 yards to a bait hive without losing weight and keep right on laying. I happened to find her a few days after the bear attack and gave them a frame of drawn comb to help them out. I didn't have any extra anything after the bear attack. Anyways, they recovered nicely and are alive and well right now. So, I like them for their fighting spirit...even if I have an isolated case. The certainly seem gentle enough for me.


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Why do so many say to get Italians first. It seems that Carniolans would be a better choice. Where would be good place to get two queens on the east coast?


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## WillH (Jun 25, 2010)

PyroBee said:


> Why do so many say to get Italians first. It seems that Carniolans would be a better choice. Where would be good place to get two queens on the east coast?


I got Italians first as they came in packages. . I love Italians. They produce a lot of honey as they normally have a large number of foragers. Their problem is that they never stop producing brood and they have a lot of mites. Carniolans are better bees IMHO. They are good producers, winter hardy, slow down brood production early fall and usually have less mites. They tend to produce more swarms than Italians. I got all my Carniolan queens from Tim Arheit (he is a member of beesource) at Honey Run Apiaries of Ohio. They are very good queens.


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## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

LOVE the carni breed excellent honey producers gentle as can be , sometimes they slow down on the brood and you will not take full advantage of a fall flow strachen has some good ones and also honey run apiaries excellent queens


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## bbruff22 (Dec 24, 2013)

Pyro, I sure like the Carnies. I chose them hoping they would winter out better here, due to the frugality of brood rearing when weather turns cooler.

Pros I've seen:
They really forage well and put up a lot of stores. My three hives are weighing about 75 pounds right now (double deeps).
Mine are really gentle and quiet on the frames. (although they did get touchy in August when it got hot)

Cons I've seen: 
I had a new package swarm on 6/8, less than two months after installation, which shocked me a bit. I was able to retrieve them and rehive, but I got lucky there and could have easily lost a lot of bees. They are swarmy. 
The propolis they have used has my frames super gooey and stuck. It complicates inspections quite a bit, but it's not a deal breaker for me. The bee supplier I used warned me about this...it's apparently common for them.

I think Italians are just much more popular and available. My supplier sells many more Italians than Carnies. I think the swarminess and messiness is an issue for folks. He tried to talk me out of them.

I hope that helps some. I'm new and don't know much, but I feel like I know a little about these girls.


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## beejeezers (Oct 17, 2013)

We have Carnies. They are a good bee - they are very gentle, are good foragers and overwinter really well being frugal with stores. - Spring build up can be very rapid as we found this year - we had to go to double brood. The main drawback is they are swarmy - each hive swarmed twice.


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## UTvolshype (Nov 26, 2012)

The greatest danger with carnies is when they shut down brood rearing in August they won't pick it up strong enough in September to last throughout the winter with a too low of population in January/Feb. I must feed heavy in September even the hives with lots of stored honey in the supers. Great bees, yes. Great with stores, yes. Rapid population growth in early spring, yes. Strong wax makers out side the spring flow, NO. Spooky population numbers after a hot summer, yes.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We prefer the Strachan NWC. 

Be aware that in a sea of Italians, the NWC tend to loose their traits in a few years faster than the Italian do become mutts.

Crazy Roland


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Thank you, I want a balance of the pros and cons. Planning for the spring. Trying to do my research now. I believe that I am going to give them a try. Strachan only has a phone number listed on the website, not an email address.


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## Bob J (Feb 25, 2013)

I have three hives that are Carniolan and two hives that are Italian and my observations pretty much mirror everyone else.... Good producers, gentle (except some defensiveness during dearth), forage in many conditions that keep the Italians at home (out earlier in the morning, forage later in the afternoon, forage in the rain and forage when it's cooler). Brooding is very well matched to local flow as opposed to my Italians that seem to be all brood all the time... No sign of robbing as well which is very different from the Italians.... They also seem to deal with the mites well.... They also seem to like to hang out outside the hive a lot... Not bearding but fairly evenly spaced (washboarding).... I had no swarms this year but based on the other comments in earlier posts will keep my eye out for those in the future....


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

love my carnis If they shut down brood in a dearth and you want the to stay built up for a fall flow, slap a migratory top on with a hole in it for a mason jar and and put one or possibly2 small holes in the lid so they are forced to take it slowly and they will maintain brood, the down side of this is you don't get the brood break which sucks for the fall flow but is good for breaking the mite cycle.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

They are a good choice for our climate. Most local stock exhibits similar behaviours - darker, smaller wintering clusters, etc.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

PyroBee said:


> Why do so many say to get Italians first.


Because:



Roland said:


> We prefer the Strachan NWC.
> 
> Be aware that in a sea of Italians, the NWC tend to loose their traits in a few years faster than the Italian do become mutts.
> 
> Crazy Roland


If you buy a special breed you have to keep on buying. Swarming is also another management requirement placed on the newbee. Easier to find help with a bee that everyone is use to.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm a first year guy, so take this for what it's worth. We have two Carnie hives and an Italian (queen provided even though I asked for a Carniolan). I feel like I could basically break combs off, shake the hives, and otherwise cause a stir and they would just keep on keepin' on. Even now when there is no flow, they are extremely calm.

The Italian hive on the other hand... they brooded right on through the dearth, ate almost all their honey, and just got really mad while laying around the hive. If I crack it open now, it's SO much different than the Carniolans that it's almost comical. When I crack the Italians open many of them come soaring out to meet me. The Carniolans are pretty much like little kittens in comparison.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> I'm a first year guy, so take this for what it's worth. We have two Carnie hives and an Italian (queen provided even though I asked for a Carniolan). I feel like I could basically break combs off, shake the hives, and otherwise cause a stir and they would just keep on keepin' on. Even now when there is no flow, they are extremely calm.
> 
> The Italian hive on the other hand... they brooded right on through the dearth, ate almost all their honey, and just got really mad while laying around the hive. If I crack it open now, it's SO much different than the Carniolans that it's almost comical. When I crack the Italians open many of them come soaring out to meet me. The Carniolans are pretty much like little kittens in comparison.



Aint this the truth. LOL I have one hive that started off Italian that I requeened from my carni hive late in the season so Most of the bees are still of Italian nature. when I cracked the tops a few weeks ago I thought they might be queenless they were so crazy.... carni hive just looked up and me and didn't so much as head-butt me


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Harley Craig said:


> Aint this the truth. LOL I have one hive that started off Italian that I requeened from my carni hive late in the season so Most of the bees are still of Italian nature. when I cracked the tops a few weeks ago I thought they might be queenless they were so crazy


You gave a bunch of Italians a mother that didn't want kids and you wonder why they are crazy?


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Those that have Carniolans, what is your overwintering success rate? Locally here you are lucky to get 50-60% of Italians to overwinter.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I prefer Caniolans over Italians in my climate for my uses. The only reason I could see for preferring Italians is there will be more bees earlier if you do early pollination.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

Not exactly on topic, but does anyone know what's going on with Strachan Apiaries? Their website has been down for a week now.


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## WillH (Jun 25, 2010)

DPBsbees said:


> Not exactly on topic, but does anyone know what's going on with Strachan Apiaries? Their website has been down for a week now.



strachanbees.com expired on 11/22/2014 and is pending renewal or deletion.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

WillH said:


> strachanbees.com expired on 11/22/2014 and is pending renewal or deletion.


I saw that. Did they forget to pay their bill?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

DPBsbees said:


> I saw that. Did they forget to pay their bill?


I'm not sure, but I called and left a message for them to let them know. Sometimes things like that get missed.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

PyroBee said:


> Why do so many say to get Italians first. It seems that Carniolans would be a better choice. Where would be good place to get two queens on the east coast?


Because that's what's available. 

My stock is predominantly Carniolan. Used to be Italian. For years I used York Starlines....in the 70s and 80s. Witnessed the crash of the yellow bees when Acarine came to our apiaries. Nothing left in the spring but dark bees. since then, I've used nothing but Carni and VSHxCarni. I love my bees. 

One issue..yes they swarm more. But, that can be overcome with good management. 

Something I wrote about swarming propensity in Carniolans. 

*********

The propensity for swarming in honeybee colonies is genetic. That means that some colonies will start swarm preparations when other colonies in the apiary, all things being equal, will not. This is true when comparing bees, colony-to-colony and race-to-race. Surely Carniolan bees will start swarm preparations before Italians, and Caucasian bees before Carniolan. A.I. Root once said that Caucasian bees would swarm at the drop of a hat, while the beekeeper was away from the apiary and at church on Sunday morning. 

I still remember my first experience with Carniolan bees. In my early beekeeping years, before using Carniolan bees…I always used York Starline, and other Italian strains from the South. With the arrival of the Tracheal mite in my apiaries, I witnessed the demise of my yellow bees. In an attempt to change direction, I began installing Carniolan queens in some of my hives. Having kept Italian stock for twenty years, I was quite familiar with their behavior. Colonies exiting winter, built up steadily, using the early flows to expand their broodnest. Their buildup was quite predictable. By dandelion bloom, some would begin showing early swarm preparations, but I had learned their characteristics and my manipulations were timed to this steady, predictable buildup. My first spring with overwintered Carniolan stocks really threw a wrench in the works.

I arrived at the Green Valley apiary to do my mid-spring management: reversing, supering, and swarm control being on the list of chores. The previous summer, I had re-queened five colonies in the yard with a Carniolan strain from California. While unpacking the truck, my help noticed a swarm hanging in an apple tree. Well, that happens. Then he sees another, and another. What the heck is going on? We weren’t late with our spring work, and at last visit two weeks before, the bees weren’t ahead of us. The neighboring apiary we had just worked had no swarms, and only a couple colonies with very young cells started. Then, while walking the tree line, I saw two more swarms hanging in a pine tree. 

Four of the swarms were conveniently located close to the ground, and were easily installed in empty equipment. The fifth was so far off the ground we had to let it go, and go it did, over the trees and far away. The big question was, what was happening here?

We went through that apiary reversing hive bodies, adding supers, and removing queen cells when present. Everything seemed about normal. A few strong colonies with yellow bees had young cells started, but nothing out of the ordinary. The condition of the five Carniolan stocks was anything but ordinary. These colonies, which had smallish clusters just three weeks before, were full of ripe queens cells and had obviously just swarmed. On the previous examination, the yellow stocks were well ahead of the dark stocks in their buildup. Now, such a short time later, all five Carniolan colonies had swarmed, while only the strongest of the Italians had just begun their queen cells. The difference between the two groups, and the explosion of the more conservative Carniolan bees was a complete surprise to me, and a huge learning experience.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If your focus is on selling nucs or queens than you would like swarming but if your focus was on producing honey and dare I say it less managing the hives then Italian is your breed of choice.


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

Funny JWCarlson, I find just the opposite with my two Carni hives and one Italian. If I pop the lid on the Carnies.......WATCH OUT, here they come! But my Italians could care less, funny how they are so different.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks for your last post mp, very interesting. did those observations result in a shifting of your timeline back or effect any other changes to your mid-spring management?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> thanks for your last post mp, very interesting. did those observations result in a shifting of your timeline back or effect any other changes to your mid-spring management?




unless the goal was to collect swarms out of trees, you can bet changes were made.


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Thank you Mr. Palmer. I have tried emailing you a few times. I would like to try some of your Carniolan queens in the spring.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

clyderoad said:


> unless the goal was to collect swarms out of trees, you can bet changes were made.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

squarepeg said:


> thanks for your last post mp, very interesting. did those observations result in a shifting of your timeline back or effect any other changes to your mid-spring management?


Earlier supering!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> Earlier supering!


understood michael, many thanks.


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## scituatema (Aug 30, 2014)

I started beekeeping with Caucasian*bees in the Black Sea Region of Turkey where Caucasian* bees are native in the region. I had them for 11 years and I never had even a single swarm from Caucasian*bees! 
I have Italians here in Massachusetts and I was surprised when I saw them swarming one after another. 11 years with them zero swarms, first season with Italian package and swarm under my the same management way.
My own experience with them in their natural habitat does not match with Mr. Palmers statement about them.


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## bolter (Jun 27, 2013)

PyroBee said:


> Those that have Carniolans, what is your overwintering success rate? Locally here you are lucky to get 50-60% of Italians to overwinter.


Lost 1 of 3, 2 years ago and 1 of 4 last year. Both times due to late summer swarm & virgin queen didn't make it back so not really winter kill. We try to keep on top of the swarming but splitting, etc, but have at least one swarm a year - mainly when we are away for a few weeks.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

scituatema - I believe Mr. Palmer was speaking of Carniolian bees, not Caucasian bees, and hence your differences in observations.

That aside, we have not had swarming issues with either Italians, or Carniolans, must be doing something wrong....


Crazy Roland


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## scituatema (Aug 30, 2014)

I am pasting here what Mr. Palmer wrote . According to this statement, Caucasian bees are even more tend to swarming than Carniolan bees.

"The propensity for swarming in honeybee colonies is genetic. That means that some colonies will start swarm preparations when other colonies in the apiary, all things being equal, will not. This is true when comparing bees, colony-to-colony and race-to-race. Surely Carniolan bees will start swarm preparations before Italians, and Caucasian bees before Carniolan. A.I. Root once said that Caucasian bees would swarm at the drop of a hat, while the beekeeper was away from the apiary and at church Sunday"


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

I like them. They winter well on less stores. But watch them come spring, they do like to swarm but ARE manageable.


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## Kirk Osborne (Oct 7, 2012)

My carnies winter well and are mostly gentle. I LOVE Carnies!


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Way too swarmy. Italian/Carnie mix are better all around from my experience.


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

Try this thread. " New World Carniolans/Carniolans " of previous comments. OMTCW


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