# FL and GA colonies dying



## Sundance

Can you provide a link to what you're
talking about Mark?? Thanks


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## loggermike

And what about the article that was posted on BEE-L about PA hives dying.I lost the link to that.Sounds like a virus outbreak ?


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## BjornBee

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=006680;p=2#000049


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## BjornBee

Both of the beekeepers I mentioned in November were from Pa.

Nobody even commented on the post.  Guess if I wanted a discussion here on beesource, I should comment on Bee-L first..


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## peggjam

I gave up on BEE-L, alot of posts about nothing, got tired of recieving 25 emails a day.


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## loggermike

Here is the bee-l post sqkcrk refers to:
http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0612B&L=BEE-L&P=R1924&I=0
Maybe this is related to the Pa losses.I hope the cause can be pinned down.These losses sound devastating.


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## George Fergusson

Here's a link to the message that started it all:

http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0612b&L=bee-l&T=0&P=5254

You can (should be able to) browse the BEE-L archives at this url:

http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A0=bee-l

The discussion has been going on for about a week. Reports of massive hive losses in Georgia and Florida. Speculation (yes! on BEE-L!!) that it might be Bee Paralysis Virus.


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## Sundance

Scary!!!

In this line is there any type of insurance
commercial beekeepers can get to cover loses
due to this type of thing?? Similar to crop
insurance perhaps??


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## loggermike

This is the link I was looking for,and likely what Bjorn was referring to in his comments in Nov,that we let slip by.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_483406.html


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## Mike Gillmore

Wow! That is a sobering article. 

Has anyone here noticed the same trends in their operations.. large or small?

The experts can't figure it out.  
Hummmmm. If it was a disease, you would think they would have pegged it by now... I wonder if it is something other than disease?

Where did these commercial beekeepers get their queens from? What strain? 

Have there been any new agricultural products introduced into the farming market in the past 2 years?

Any new miticide products introduced in the past 2 years? What are the affected operations using?

Any common threads?


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## fat/beeman

hello
so far mine hives are doing well with minamal winter kills only 15-25 in front of hives thats normal. I hope the organic way of treating the hives will lead others too do the same.
pesticide build up in hives might be the problem. 
Don


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## naturebee

November is simply the month that most of these colonies decided to die. That these colonies are dying now is a consequence of things that I saw occurring back in June/July, and were very apparent by early August when I was asked by some beekeepers to inspect their colonies to determine why they were starving.

No doubt about it, it was certainly a bad year weather wise and most colonies in my area suffered somewhat from lack of forage. But what caused many colonies to collapse and others not IMO are: 1.) Colony collapses are related to the lesser nutritional foraging abilities caused by parasites and or combination of viruses. And 2.) the poor quality breeding practices and the accumulated effect of other bad practices affecting the health of the honeybee in the USA (hence, contributing to bee kills showing all along the east corridor that many queens are sold from the south to north and colonies are moved).

This is mother nature weeding out the unfit and weak. Deadly, but more effective than any breeder!

Bee breeders / beekeepers tell me all the time, There is no natural selection in keeping honeybees, the beekeeper decides everything

Well, what do these breeders / beekeepers think is happing now?


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## mobees

Are these viruses related to Varroa resistant infestations or another vectoring?


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## Fusion_power

The most likely cause with be a varroa vectored virus complex. A secondary possible cause is pesticie use in the hive.

Fusion


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## Mike Gillmore

Varroa mite seems to always be the scapegoat. Have they not been throughout the US for at least 15+ years? If we keep focussing solely on the Varroa, the real culprit may go unnoticed behind our backs.
This is sounding too sudden and widespread to simply be a mite problem. They may have contributed to stress and weakening of the hives as other natural forces do, but I'll bet we'll discover something else at work here.


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## naturebee

Hello Mobees!
Researchers have dissected 10 queens, and viruses BQCV, CBPV, DWV, KBV, and SBV were found present in 100% of the queens tested. The presence of DWV was found in 100% of the queens tested. These viruses exist in low levels in honeybees and are generally no problem for them. But it seems bees become more susceptible to viruses due to the weakened immune system caused by parasites, and the effect parasites have on nutritional foraging (parasitic infested colonies were found in recent research to bring in smaller pollen loads etc.) which further weakens the colony. Viruses easily infect these weakened bees thru the varroa feeding site.


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## tecumseh

pcolar first sezs:
November is simply the month that most of these colonies decided to die. That these colonies are dying now is a consequence of things that I saw occurring back in June/July, and were very apparent by early August when I was asked by some beekeepers to inspect their colonies to determine why they were starving.

tecumseh wonders:
could it be that these hives are simply starving from lack of resource? or is that explanation way toooooo simple?

then pcolar adds:
Bee breeders / beekeepers tell me all the time, There is no natural selection in keeping honeybees, the beekeeper decides everything

tecumseh replies:
well now there some delusional thinking. 

may I assume??? that this logic does not work in reverse, which would be to say.... since the beekeeper decides everything, then obviously the hives in georgia and florida are dying due to the beekeepers decisions and choice????

sundance sezs:
In this line is there any type of insurance
commercial beekeepers can get to cover loses due to this type of thing?? Similar to crop insurance perhaps??

tecumseh replies:
if commercial bee keepers can establish some link for a disaster outside of their control then 'federal' disaster money usually follows. 

I wonder how much of this problem is being generated by the fact that the commercial beekeepers in florida, georgia (plus mississippi and texas) are having difficulties in getting hive into california?


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## naturebee

Hello Mike!


Mites do get the blame, probably because the series of events that cause colony collapse are so complicated. Take for instance a plane crash. In plane crash investigations, the cause of a plane crash will often involve a series of mistakes or events that together caused the crash, and the seemingly obvious cause not necessarily the cause.

Research has shown that simply having DWV is not sufficient to cause deformed wings in honeybees and colony collapse. They also found that having mites and DWV together will only cause deformed wings in about 25% of the bees, but this is still not sufficient to cause colony collapse. 

The focus of the research is now being centered on the chemical glucose oxidase or GOx that is put into the honey by worker bees and sterilizes the honey and the colonies food. They have found that if bees have mites, their production of GOx decreases. They suspect as mites build up, not as much GOx will be found in the honey and the honey has more bacteria.


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## MountainCamp

I can not speack for anything that is happening anywhere other than around here. 

The late summer fall flow just did not happen.

When I went through hives in September and October - the majority did not have near enough stores to get them through.

Talking with other beekeepers around here in October, everyone of them said that their hives were lite on stores already.

I combined some hives and started preparing them for winter. Of the 30 hives that I cut down to, I have not lost any yet. 

Reading the article concerning PA, I took the following out of it:

-He first noticed the die-off in early October. By mid-November, he had lost 1,000 hives and about 100,000 pounds of honey he could have sold.

-"There are some years where we do not get any honey, but the bees are still there. Most of them are just dead this time." 

It sound to me like they had NO HONEY or very little in the way of stores.
With a failed summer and fall flow, the queens laying would drop off and the population would start to decrease. Any worker bees from the end of August / early September will have died off by early October to November.
A smaller than normal population, little or no stores and the first bout of cold weather - will finish the colony.
Just the way I read the situation.


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## naturebee

tecumseh replies:
.... since the beekeeper decides everything, then obviously the hives in georgia and florida are dying due to the beekeepers decisions and choice????--

Yes! IMO, the choice to adopt bad breeding practices is what the beekeeper decided. It's not a popular position to take, but when one collects and assess many ferals for so long as I have. You begin see the difference in competitiveness between the two groups and one must face reality. BUT, in spite of this, I have seen some very nice queen produced by several comercial breeders, so it;s not all bad, but bad enough to show during these tough times. 

How we choose to breed our bees affects the bees over a large regions by selecting traits with a non balanced approach. Some researchers have speculated on the lack of competitiveness breed into our bees. "Why the Africanized honey bee successfully invaded the New World but has not moved across Europe, we don't know," Johnston added. "Maybe (the U.S. varieties) were selected (by beekeepers) for everything but competition". (Dr. Spencer Johnston)


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## MountainCamp

Mike, I agree with you on the fact that varroa are the catch all of hive loses.

Reading any of the older books and manuals gives one the situation before mites hit North America. Accounts of winter loses of 15% to 45% or higher depending on the location and the winter were common and expected.

Do mites cause some of the hive loses - yes, but so does the beekeepers actions, the weather, and the bees themselves, as well as many other factors.


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## BjornBee

What is natural winter kill(?), and the fact we breed wimpy (non-competitive) bees. Now there is two areas that need more attention.

We all want the calmest bee available and we all expect also for these bees to have 0% winter kill. We ask alot, don't you think?

Mountaincamp, I gave several talks this past year called "Building a silver bullet, one B-B at a time". It covered things that beekeepers do, that impact the overall health and winter kill rates. It was a beekeeping basic 101 type talk. Amazing how many people spoke to me afterwards about basic things that was no longer considered important in going about the everyday routine of beekeeping. The talk covered expectations and winter kill, and breeding practices over the years. I think what you and PcColar said are areas that are not given enough attention and consideration.


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## WG Bee Farm

I talked with a pollinator last night here in NC.
His losses are in the 50% range. He is worried.

He is re-treating because his mite levels are rising and placing pollen patties on to boast them. 
In some of the papers I have read the immune system is directly affected by poor nutruition. 
Some Fall pollen feeding, could be benefical to the bees in their preparations for winter. Especially in years when there is a dearth of nectar and/or pollen.
I feed one patty, up to two, depending on the hive conditions every fall and has helped to reduce losses.


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## Aspera

Mites, poor nutrition, strain of virus, presence of other pathogens, it all seems interrelated to me. The $64,000 question is what interventions best address this issues. I know that supplemental feeding and annual requeening would be my picks. Joe might be inclined towards small cell, Bjorn towards Russian stock. What about everyone else?

[ December 15, 2006, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: Aspera ]


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## tecumseh

aspera sezs:
What about everyone else?

tecumseh ask:
an old retire vet here suggest to me when I was discussing aspects of the varroa problem (I was removing a feral hive from his house) the idea of physioloical (sp???) stress. what can you tell me about this 'disease'?


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## loggermike

What about everyone else?

We know here in Ca that the winter bees needed to carry a hive through to almond pollination must be raised with an abundance of good nutrition and free of diseases and parasites.This means from about the middle of August on.If not enough of these long lived bees are raised,the hives will go down hill rapidly in late fall.Also if there is the 'triple whammy'of nosema,tracheal mites and varroa,and the viruses associated with all of these,the hive is doomed.I heard earlier somewhere about a new strain of nosema in Europe causing big losses,but havent heard anything new about that.


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## Joel

We are not seeing any unusual looses at this point. I stress at this point! We had virtually no mite issues this year. The only different thing we did was fogging with FGMO and Thymol. One year is not enought to judge effectiveness and it could also be some other environmental factor or possibly a new queen supplier with better/more hygenic stock. We did not use any other treatment and with the exception of a few hives we were unable to find mites on most inspections. Our late season splits suffered from lack of nectar and needed to be fed but overall I thought stores were near normal for our area. We did extract less honey overall which I attribute to the queen excluders as the bees tend to put up their stores and then fill honey supers.

Bjorn. I know it's difficult to condense a lecture but I'd be interested in at least an outline of your lecture or possibly some of the main talking points.

Joe, the beekeepers contacting you for inspection in August were doing this because of unusual problems? If so could you share any consistancies you found(bee stock, methodolgy, treatments) you found in problem hives?

[ December 15, 2006, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Fusion_power

I don't think there will be a silver bullet, but suspect genetics will be the overall answer with colony management a close second.

If I can pick up some good quality feral colonies and select good producers among them, then anyone can do the same. This would be a step in the right direction, but it will take several years to achieve the desired results. It will also take dedication and acceptance that there will be train wrecks along the way.

A major problem we are butting our heads against is the narrowing of the genetic base caused by producing queens from a very limited number of breeders. Regardless of other efforts made, at some point, we as beekeepers will HAVE to address the issue of stock diversity.

Maybe its time beekeepers got back to the "three R's" of beekeeping.

Fusion


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## sqkcrk

Could it be tracheal mites? Varroa gets the blame because it is easily seen, perhaps.

Another theory is use of alternative treatment products.

I took the crop off around Sept. 15th and treated all colonies with OA dribbled between the frames.
I also had Checkmite and Apistan strips left from last year, unopened. Each hive got one of those two strips. I don't know if they were effective or not. No sampling done. Before or after treatment. 

All colonies were brought into the home yard to ready them for shipping to SC. Maybe I should have waited until a time closer to when the semi came. But you have to do things when you can. That perfect day never seems to come.

So, about 280 colonies went south. When I got them on the ground there and went through some the next day, I found quite a few dead.

Some of the dead, if not most, were probably dead when I loaded them. I would guess that they were weakish and got robbed out. I did install entrance reducers while we had our cold spell in Oct. I don't remember seeing any robbing going on at home.

So, what did I do wrong? Maybe I shouldn't ask. I know how gentle you all are with your advice and critisism.









Hopefully I can put that "empty" equipment to use in the spring.

Afriend of mine is looking for Drone Combs and is offering $1.00 each. He needs them in his Queen Rearing Yards so he will have enough drones.

[ December 15, 2006, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: sqkcrk ]


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## Kieck

I don't know that my two cents' worth here is even worth two cents, but I'll throw it in anyway.

So far, from what has been posted here, the most obvious cause sounds to be starvation. I went through the postings in the link to Bee-L, too, and found Pcolar's (Joe's) observations on the hives that seemed to be failing. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting those comments, but it sounded like light stores. If weather was a poor for honey flows in other places as it was around here late this summer, that shouldn't be too surprizing.

I'm curious about some of the "genetics" and "ferals" comments posted in this thread. Are the "ferals" really that distinct from bees in managed colonies? How so, if they are? How do you suppose they remain distinct (if they are) with the abundance of managed colonies around? The managed colonies, which, around here, FAR outnumber any "feral" colonies, must pump out far more drones, if not swarms, than the "feral" colonies, and those genes then would logically get mixed together. And, how do you maintain distinct stock from "feral" sources, unless you II your bees? It seems to me that open mating and the long-range movement of bees around the country makes the genetics all willy-nilly. Selection? Without II, how can you hope to begin to create breeding lines of known stock?

Back to the subject at hand: did brood rearing continue as long as usual last summer for these dying colonies, or might November this year be about as long after brood rearing ceased as, say, January is in a normal year?


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## power napper

Guess who is sittin in Pennsylvania waiting on his turn--me! This dead hive scenerio sure gets ones attention. Most winters we lose half our hives due to various reasons, so far (and I am stating this with my fingers, toes, arms, legs and eyes crossed)we are fortunate enough to have not lost a hive. We have twelve hives, had the worse year ever for honey production, had the worse year ever for robbing and took our losses in the fall. We fed two to one sugar water with a vitamin c tablet to try to help the bees survive. 
This past week has been unusually warm weather here, bees flying and the feeders are kept filled. I know we have varoa and only treat a couple times a year with powder sugar dusting. 
When the smoke clears and all the damage reports come in the spring I truly hope we learn something from this beekeeping speed bump.
Our mix breeds of bees and several swarms are hangin in there for now but feel like the timer is ticking, wishing for the best for all beekeepers.


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## Fusion_power

Managed colonies that go feral in this area do not survive the first winter. Feral colonies that swarm into my bait hives survive multiple years. The feral colonies I have caught are from extensive woodland areas with no beekeepers for several miles.

I don't claim that managed colonies have no impact, but I do claim that the ferals survive where colonies from commercial stock fail.

Fusion


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## Mike Gillmore

I'm beginning to believe that the source of this "winter kill" may be traced back to the end of summer and is somehow directly related to the widespread reports of poor fall flow, or "starvation". 

In this part of Ohio there is usually a pretty decent fall flow of Goldenrod and Aster, even in off years. However this past fall there were widespread reports, and many Beekeeping Association articles written, about this unprecedented Fall nectar failure. 

There has been no concrete explaination given, all is speculation. The most unusual thing about this is that many of the impacted colonies were going like gangbusters and had plenty of mature bees and brood into the late summer and early fall, and the blooming plants were abundant. This left everyone scratching their heads as the outcome of "no stores" did not line up with colony strength or available forage. 

The "old-timers" have never seen anything like this and have no idea what could be happening. Hope we figure this out soon.


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## David VanderDussen

"I took the crop off around Sept. 15th and treated all colonies with OA dribbled between the frames.
I also had Checkmite and Apistan strips left from last year, unopened. Each hive got one of those two strips. I don't know if they were effective or not. No sampling done. Before or after treatment." .."So, about 280 colonies went south. When I got them on the ground there and went through some the next day, I found quite a few dead." .... "
So, what did I do wrong?"

Well Mark, since you asked, 
a)no post treatment varroa check (you already new that - try the quick, clean, alcohol wash method posted on the CAPA website,http://www.capabees.ca/eil.htm - it's a lot less bother than sticky boards, ether rolls, etc). 

b)Apistan and Checkmite are probably done for, in your outfit.

c) oxalic in September is a waste of time and money as far as efficacy, and probably doing more harm than good to the bees trying to raise the winter cluster. 

d) what you should have done is use Mite-AwayII, cleaning up whatever tracheal mites are there and knocking back the varroa, and the bees would have raised a couple of cycles of clean brood for your winter cluster. 

I hope you have a better year in 2007!

David v.


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## AstroZomBEE

It was just reported to me that one of our Yards in Ruskin Florida has some unexplained bee deaths. From a yard of 240 Hives approximately 180 of them were dead. The number has not been officially counted but it is at least half to three quarters of the yard. No bees in the boxes, very little patches of old dead brood left if any. These bees came were summer nucs from Pennsylvania. The bees were checked after the shipment and no excess kills were noticed, that was october. Mite rolls were taken at that time and the mite levels were low, we do ether rolls. And the bees were on a Pepper bush flow, most of our bees on the flow had at least one shallow full of honey for the fall crop.

Other summer nucs from Pennsylvania sent down did phenomanally well on pepperbush.
All of our bees had been treated with FGMO fogging throughout the summer/Fall.


I guess we were lucky, our remaining 5000 colonies are faring well, Weather in florida has been just wet enough to keep the mustard blooming keeping our bees with a nice supply of Pollen. So all that Feedbee i mixed up into patty material is just sitting down there. 

Things look good for sending 4000 colonies to Cali.
Keeping fingers crossed.

Aaron

[ December 15, 2006, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: AstroZomBEE ]


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## Mike Gillmore

> unexplained bee deaths....These bees came were summer nucs from Pennsylvania. <
> Other summer nucs from Pennsylvania sent down did phenomanally well on pepperbush. <

Different suppliers? .. In what part of PA were they summered?

Is there anything you notice that is different in Ruskin than your other yards in FL?

Of the remaining 5000 colonies, how many were also in PA this summer?

I hope you have seen the end of it and fare well for almonds


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## peggjam

Kieck might be on the right path. We had such cold wet weather in Oct that the goldenrod went almost untouched by the bees, resulting in low stores for the hives to winter on. I took very little honey off, even though the first part of the year looked very good for honey production.

"So, what did I do wrong? Maybe I shouldn't ask. I know how gentle you all are with your advice and critisism."

You quit your inspector's job.


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## George Fergusson

Somehow, I can't see large, experienced beekeepers letting their bees starve to death or if that happened, complaining about it. I also don't see them bringing in the cavalry to diagnose that problem. These are unexplained deaths. Starvation should be obvious.

My worthless speculation is tracheal mites. I lost one hive last spring for no good reason and I think tracheal mites were to blame. This past summer one hive had a bad case of tracheal mites. I requeened it, but I suspect it won't make it through the winter.. it was looking pretty weak last time I looked.


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## naturebee

--I think what you and PcColar said are areas that are not given enough attention and consideration.--(Bjornbee)

Hello Bjornbee!
About this attention to breeding, was talking with Dennis van,,, about if there happened to be state funded breeders group or breeding research because I need expert advice about some interesting traits being exhibited in a group of ferals I keep. 

He mentioned that he was very busy researching the bee kills here in PA. And stated that the only people trying to breed resistant bees in PA are beekeepers themselves. So in having PA feral stock that is fairing rather well this season in spite of the losses occurring here in PA. I am interested in participating in such a PA Queen Breeders group, should someone take the initiative to form such a group that derives stock from PA adapted genetics or other such resistant stock.


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## AstroZomBEE

>Different suppliers? .. In what part of PA were >they summered?
All nucs were produced in house. Once a week for about a month we made 600 to 700 nucs in July/August. All made with 2 frames of brood, and at least 2 frams of honey and our own queen cells.


>Is there anything you notice that is different >in Ruskin than your other yards in FL?

It was the nearest to an Orange grove i believe, which we are looking into to see if the were spraying anything.

>Of the remaining 5000 colonies, how many were >also in PA this summer?

They all went through PA, OH, MI, WI, ME if they weren't split into nucs.

>I hope you have seen the end of it and fare >well for almonds
I hope so too, odds are looking good too. The yard in question was one of the last to be moved into our winter locations. No problems have been found since.

Aaron


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## naturebee

--Joe might be inclined towards small--(Aspera)

As much credit goes to small cell (sizes of that being 5.1 mm and smaller). I am a bit more inclined to good breeding practices, which I tend to incline more towards breeding simply because of the difficulty that exists in breeding good bees, and the ease of achieving small cell. Which IMO necessitates more inclination be placed towards good breeding to counter weight the difficulty factor.









I am now 100% feral stock and beheaded all other queenlines. So my inclination is towards feral honeybees.

[ December 15, 2006, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## BjornBee

Joe, I had recently spoke with dennis about a Pa. breeders association. We had thought about it a couple years back and seemed any discussion went nowhere with the "established" breeders just wanting the same old path.

There was an excellent program with one of the researchers(tech transfer specialist - Alison Skinner) of the ontario group breeders association at the fall convention. I think this peaked some renewed interest. Let me get back to you about this. Too much typing. I'll round up some information.


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## naturebee

tecumseh wonders:
could it be that these hives are simply starving from lack of resource? or is that explanation way toooooo simple?--

This is a very difficult analysis of what is going on here. But all we have to work with are comparisons. A small percentage of my top performer feral colonies were showing me what should be by reflection of performance and over all health. And a few others in my feral assessment yard and in other beekeepers yards that are clearly are showing me what should not be, by the lack of colony expansion. 

An inspection of area colonies in early August.

In the affected colonies:
When I inspected these colonies that were stressed, it appeared the bees were otherwise very healthy, varroa pressure seemed low, no signs of disease. But they were experiencing clear signs of stress, showing in the form of lack of brood production, lack of egg laying, lack of pollen, lack of nectar. The weather IMO was not that severe, and they should have been able to manage some nectar intake, but they could not even manage enough nectar coming in keep even a small patch of brood going.

In the unaffected colonies:
In my top performing ferals things were scary, but in different ways. The colonies were light on stores, but brood production was just about the highest I have ever seen it. The lack of nectar, I theorize freed up laying space for the queen, and they seemed healthy enough to collect adequate nectar to fuel the abundant brood rearing, and still maintain a small honey cap. I monitored these out performers during the summer, and did see fresh nectar close to the larvae throughout the summer indicating they were managing sufficient forage even then. What was scary was that brood rearing was so prolific in August, I feared that they might brood themselves into starvation. But they managed to maintain brood rearing till the flow started in late August, and the brood production was a blessing because population was so high in these colonies, I kept the supers on and managed a small fall surplus in these colonies while they still managed to fill the broodnest with stores.


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## Kieck

I hadn't thought of it the way George is thinking, and you might be right, George. I'm not sure, though. I sometimes wonder if the "big" beekeepers are as aware of what's going on in their hives as the "small" beekeepers.

From what AstroZomBEE and PColar have written, it sounds more like starvation or old bees dying earlier in the winter than it did when I posted earlier. Joe (PColar) indicated that the colonies he saw seemed stressed, but showed no signs of disease. Sure, it could be some new disease with completely unexpected symptoms, but shouldn't Joe or Aaron (AstroZomBEE) have noticed some signs of disease?

Tracheal mites are a possibility, but it's still strange to me that no signs of "disease" appeared if the bees were parasitized heavily enough with t-mites to kill the colonies. It's also strange that so many colonies would die in such a short time span from t-mites.

Either scenario that Joe laid out (the affected colonies or his unaffected colonies) sounds like trouble to me.


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## naturebee

Hello Joel!

If I may clarify, Im not a bee inspector, but was asked by beekeepers I have helped to look at their hives because they were not collecting nectar and rearing brood in July and August. My best guess is that we will never pinpoint an exact cause because it is a compounding cause affect, things are same as last season, but add that last straw and things come crashing down. 

--If so could you share any consistancies you found(bee stock, methodolgy, treatments) you found in problem hives?--(Joel)

The bees looked remarkably healthy, but population was too low, brood production was practically non existent, no honey and no pollen. There was no use combining them, because nothing to combine them onto that had any stores, but you had to combine them and take your chances anyhow (this is back in August). In the package bees that I inspected, the outlook is grave, the mature colonies are fairing better, but could still starve this winter. But the MAJOR concern IMO is the lack of winter bee production in these colonies.

I called a beekeeper that I was helping get started by giving him my first swarm call and a cut out, and told him in August how bad things seemed and to forgo the fall surplus in favor of saving his colonies. Well, I had to go over there threatened to pull his supers off myself because he resisted my suggestion and wanted a surplus real bad. I went back a few days ago to check his hive weight and about broke my back lifting them. Clearly these bees were stressed very little by the events occurring around them. In the spring and early summer, I remember commenting how I just loved the exceptional queen performance in these colonies. And told him I would be back for some queen cells next season. His few colonies are very heavy and strong, confidence is high for successful wintering. So this event is certainly not affecting all colonies equally.


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## naturebee

--I'm curious about some of the "genetics" and "ferals" comments posted in this thread. Are the "ferals" really that distinct from bees in managed colonies? How so=--(kieck)

To the most part, ferals have selected traits for survival, and commercial stock has traits selected for economic value (ref Brother Adam)

I wont go into how so, but from the losses experienced by beekeepers this year in comparison to my small lot of ferals, Brother Adam probably has the how so explained well enough.


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## George Fergusson

>you might be right, George. I'm not sure, though.

I've been wrong before









"Stressed" with no obvious signs of disease could be tracheal mites. Of course it could be any number of things. Since one symptom of acarine disease is poor flying performance, reduced stores is not uncommon in hives infested with tracheal mites. My hive that had tracheal mites this summer was full of bees and was short on stores. It also had skads of crawling bees in front of the hive and k-wing was prominent. It isn't always.

Right now, we've got a lot of rampant speculation and not a lot of hard facts. After Jerry's post on BEE-L about the problem, someone posted about a couple of their hives in the Tampa Bay area:



> I thought it was just me. My bees died spontaneously within the last two or three weeks. There are only 2 hives at this one location. One hive started having bees die and lay on the landing board. On closer inspection, I saw the dieing bees, which were still able to stand up, shivering and standing on the "tip toes" of their rear legs. Their thoraxes were contracted, so the bees all looked small. I thought maybe that there had been some spraying in the area and the bees might have foraged on a contaminated nectar source. The bees eventually cleaned of the landing board and the other hive was looking strong. Perhaps they would recover.
> 
> A few days later, the other hive had the entrance choked with dead and dieing bees and a double handful of bees were on the ground at the entrance. I've never seen anything like it. The second hive was completely dead in 5 days and the first hive has a fair amount of bees, but no eggs in the cells.


Did he mean their abdomens were contracted? Dunno. No follow up. Is this report "part of the problem" or an unrelated event? Dunno. Are the problems Joe & company have been seeing in PA "part of the problem"? Dunno.

I look forward to hearing more from Jerry about what they're discovering. I'd be surprised if it's "starvation". I guess I'll be surprised if it's tracheal mites too









I also assume AstroZombee will be investigating his coloney losses and will let us know what he finds out. Are you going to investigate further AstroZombee?


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## naturebee

--Either scenario that Joe laid out (the affected colonies or his unaffected colonies) sounds like trouble to me.--(Kieck)

On the surface, it may appear that way. 
But the colonies that brooded up all summer were managing this feat with incoming nectar, and also able to maintain a decent honey cap.

In affect, the healthier colonies were hedging their bets that brooding up would give them the tremendous workforce needed to gather sufficient nectar in a very short amount of time come fall bloom. And this is exactly what happened! Even though the fall flow was not that great, the extreme strength of the workforce in these colonies allowed them to fill the broodnest with stores in a very short time, and my strongest even managed a super of fall surplus, which I left on the these hives for possible use later on other colonies. 

The colonies that did NOT brood up had neither the work force necessary to collect adequate winter stores, or the winter bees to survive winter even if there had been sufficient winter stores collected, so either way this group is probably doomed. Whereas, the brooding up group seemed to have the correct strategy needed for survival.

[ December 15, 2006, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## MichelleB

(Lupine meekly squeaks from the back of the classroom

Could it be nutrition-related? I.E. local distribution of bad patties? Syrup? (assuming all hives were exposed, via direct feeding or robbing, to some measure of same supplements)

I've wondered about the nutritional value of HFCS or sugar syrup compared to natural honey. Perhaps some strains of bees, when they require heavy feeding, don't handle the substitutes well? 

When one hive dies out and the other is healthy...and then the second, the one with the natural stores, dies out...perhaps it's because it robbed syrup stored by hive #1? 

What components of honey that is missing in HFCS/sugar syrup affect a bee's immune system?

Way out there, I know, but as I read this thread, I couldn't help but wonder.


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## tecumseh

pcolar does the quote thing:
To the most part, ferals have selected traits for survival, and commercial stock has traits selected for economic value (ref Brother Adam)

tecumseh purrs:
niccccce.....

said another way nature does the selection in regards to ferals vs breeder queens which are selected for certain characteristics that likely have 'significant' economic value.

one important thing often missed by the hobbist is that 'commercial venture' have a lot more possibilities from which to choose from and compare with. this is not to suggest that some hobbist might not have one hive that displayed exceptional qualities, but it is also quite unlikely to be noted since there is nothing to compare this 'exceptional' hive with.

dave v sezs:
c) oxalic in September is a waste of time and money as far as efficacy, and probably doing more harm than good to the bees trying to raise the winter cluster.

tecumseh politely ask:
Why? state your logic please. you being from ontario then september would be eqivalent to what month (actually what season in regards to the honeybee's). 

astrozom adds:
It was just reported to me that one of our Yards in Ruskin Florida has some unexplained bee deaths.

and then...
Other summer nucs from Pennsylvania sent down did phenomanally well on pepperbush.

tecumseh replies:
well since the location is ruskin then in this particular case I might begin to suspect spraying of winter vegtable/strawberry crop and/or oranges.

perhaps the pepperbush flow was not quite as good as you thought??? do you (and I ask this only because of the numbers that you have stated that you operate) give bonus to employees base on the honey crop? just curious really (although someone once told me that it would kill a cat.... oh my).


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## George Fergusson

>I've wondered about the nutritional value of HFCS or sugar syrup compared to natural honey.

I'm not suggesting HFCS is better than, or even as good as, honey for bee food but I seriously doubt it has anything to do with this current spate of dying colonies. If HFCS or even white sugar was the problem, most managed beehives would have died years ago, commercial and hobbyist alike.

>one important thing often missed by the hobbist is that 'commercial venture' have a lot more possibilities from which to choose from and compare with.

It could be argued that many commercial operators with thousands of hives wouldn't notice an exceptional hive if it stung them. Most commercial operators I know (which admittedly isn't a lot) make a lot of noise about "equalizing" their colonies in the spring i.e., making them all look more or less the same. So-called hobbyist beekeepers on the other hand are at least potentially much more likely to notice and foster a hive displaying exceptional qualities and exploit it.

For example, when commercial operators treat for varroa, they treat all their colonies equally.

Now, I am going into winter with 15 hives, one of which was left for dead and abandoned in the fall of 2005 by a commercial operator. He pulled his hives out in late November and left a 4 way pallet with 3 dead hives and this one, apparently too far gone to bother with.

Well, it miraculously survived the winter, without treatment, in a deep and a shallow with it's migratory cover knocked askew until this spring when I discovered and salvaged it. I housed it in new equipment. Over the summer it thrived and I raised queens from it- she is a jet-black Carniolan. It survived the summer and fall untreated. This fall, I treated my other hives with OA drip but I didn't treat this "survivor" colony. Last time I checked it was full of bees.

Will it survive the winter? Dunno. Will the queens I raised from it succeed? Maybe. Is it really an exceptional colony? It appears to be. Time will tell. What I do know is that this hive was left for dead and it ain't dead yet.


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## naturebee

--said another way nature does the selection in regards to ferals vs breeder queens which are selected for certain characteristics that likely have 'significant' economic value.--(Tecumseh)

Good point! Without good health made possible by essential survival traits, a colony will not be as productive. There is also a tremendous natural selective pressure in the feral population for the selection of traits essential fo the beekeepers needs in colony productivity. Traits such as worker population and good foraging abilities in ferals are selected for, as a colonies ability to store more honey can aid in it's survival of winter, which affects fitness.

"You lika de quote ting huh"









Worker population effects a colonies fitness because a larger colony is able to collect more nectar and store more honey during the active foraging season, thereby increasing the food reserves that are necessary for it to survive the winter (Seeley).

--this is not to suggest that some hobbist might not have one hive that displayed exceptional qualities, but it is also quite unlikely to be noted since there is nothing to compare this 'exceptional' hive with..--(Tecumseh)

This is a great point!
To put another way, I would assume many hobby beekeepers have dificulty determining what exceptional performance actually is, because they have no exceptional colony that would serve to show them where to set the bar for what is expected of colony performance in their area. 

I occasionally have had to rewrite my definition of exceptional performance when I sometimes find a feral that when integrated out-competes OR is at par with even my best colonies! Colonies that I thought were performing exceptionally well just 3 years ago are sometimes being eliminated due to what I now describe as unacceptable performance when comparative assessment techniques are used. 

In short, a beekeeper should judge performance by comparison only, and letting his best performing colonies set the bar for the rest, and resist grading colonies in accordance to what others say good performance is or should be.

[ December 16, 2006, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## naturebee

--Joe, I had recently spoke with dennis about a Pa. breeders association. We had thought about it a couple years back and seemed any discussion went nowhere with the "established" breeders just wanting the same old path.--(Bjornbee)

Yes, would be great to have Dennis in on this important venture! As far as the same old path, one might need to form a group to set guidelines on what path we should take here in PA to insure the best bee most fit for our local conditions. Decisions such as what stock, how much weight to give to feral stock or commercial lines ect. 

--Let me get back to you about this. Too much typing. I'll round up some information.

Great! I would be highly interested in any breeding group that restricts the selection of stock to honeybees wintered here in PA, and untreated stock. A breeding philosophy that promotes competitiveness in our bees would be of high interest to me. And you can count me in 100% if Dennis will assist us in the program, and if places high emphasis on untreated stock and the collecting and breeding of Pennsylvania ferals.

I would certainly opt out of any program that includes southern wintered or stock form other places, treated stock etc. Not to preclude the rare possibility of acquiring feral stock of distant places for an acquisition of a particular trait should it be decided in our best intrest.


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## jjgbee

Who is doing research on these losses? Thought..During a bad nectar season, Traceal mite will excell. But? Doesn't anyone back there have a disecting microscope? A good scope today costs about $500.00. Cheap compared to 500 colonies. 2nd thought.. A starved out hive always has bees with their heads buried in the bottom of the cells. Why the speculation on starvation. 3rd thought.. I have a great feral African colony with "0" mite count. Not toooo mean, makes honey. Want to add it to that servivor Penn. stock?


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## Mike Gillmore

> Who is doing research on these losses? <

Great question! If I just lost hundreds of colonies, I would be all over it. Why is there such a great mystery here... it seems mighty odd that no one has yet identified the source of the problem.


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## tecumseh

pcolar sezs:
"You lika de quote ting huh" 

tecumseh replies:
you betcha bubba (a southern term which loosely translates to the word brother).

and thanks for the additonal quotes pcolar and i would say that the later point that you made are directly on target.


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## naturebee

--Want to add it to that survivor Penn. stock?-(jjgbee)

Thanks! But at this time however, I am not seeking new stock. The feral stock that I have acquired from local population seems to have sufficient balance of traits needed for survival and economic value. For the moment, I am content with using local stock. 

The reason I keep the door open for acquiring foreign stock is should the need arise to obtain a desired trait. Is that these early stages of feral recovery here in my area, it seems apparent that different combinations of varroa resistant traits are showing in sub populations of ferals in my area. Although, some degree of hygienic behavior seems to be common in all ferals. It appears that in some areas, a grooming trait may be prevalent. In other areas, the grooming trait is lacking, seemingly replaced by highly developed hygienic behavior abilities. In another area discovered just this year, the feral colonies tend to brood heavy with nearing 100% viability. Brood production is said by the experts to be deadly to colonies by increasing mite populations, but this is not occurring in this particular population of ferals, so the mode of resistance is still being studied and as of yet undetermined. But even though the mode is undetermined in this population, I am focusing trapping to this area due to the superb brood viability which is generally a significant indication of excellent health in a feral population. 

There are 6 known mechanisms to varroa tolerance in honeybees. It is appearing to me that in this early feral recovery time, the sub populations of ferals tend to have several of these mechanisms What is interesting is that either the order of prevalence, or combination of these traits seems to be key in which sub populations are recovering the fastest. Now its a genetic race to determine which combination of varroa resistance will win out in these ferals. But eventually, one of these combinations resistance will become dominate in most ferals in my area. In the mean time, now is an excellent opportunity to develop strategies to identify which sub populations are associated with the prevalence of specific resistant mechanisms and order of prevalence. For instance, a beekeeper could introduce feral genetics that have grooming prevalence to an area where ferals exhibit 100% brood viability. And once established, would be a base from which to work from in developing other essential traits, and a potential pool of genetics the beekeeper can draw from for years to come 

So there is plenty of potential already existing for the acquisition of locally adapted resistant traits to keep us busy for some time. But being that unique traits can occasionally become prevalent in sub populations of ferals, we must keep the door open to this potential resource should a unique trait that our bees are lacking be identified in some foreign stock.


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## naturebee

--Doesn't anyone back there have a disecting microscope?-(jjgbee)

This is a great question!

I understand that bee experts have been dispatched all over the country with microscopes in hand in an attempt to find some exotic bee disease in witch to blame this most recent bee kill event on. It will make great press!

But lets look just a bit into the past, for we here in PA have been there several times.

The fact is, these devastating losses have been occurring in regions here in PA and the north east many times over that past 15 years. All this time, beekeepers from other parts of the USA and Europe told us: You dont know what your are doing there,,,, mites are easily controlled with treatments,, etc.,,, Your doing something wrong there in PA, get a microscope and look. Add this & that, these & those treatments

Well, IMO, when you have these regional collapses, it is a symptom of severe problems existing in the over all larger population. And this is what we are seeing today with crashes occurring all across the country.

Think about it. We are fighting the mites for the bees with treatments. We are fighting AFB for the bees with treatments. We are fighting nosema for the bees, EFB for the bees, TM for the bees. We are supporting bad genetics and lack of performance by feeding many colonies instead of requeening with more fit stock. We ship bees to areas that they were not acclimated. These are all stresses on the health of our bees! Bees are remarkable creatures capable of handling many stresses, but there will be that one additional stress that becomes too much and crashes it all down. Its like a house of cards add one more card and the house comes crashing down. Beekeepers tend to blame the last card added, missing the overall picture! They will pic up that last card added and say Ahh! Heres the problem. its this dang queen of hearts

Speaking from experience: 
We here in PA have been seeing these sporadic regional collapses for 15 years. The microscopes been out many times, blame placed one year on varroa, the next year on TM, the next year on virus. last year on pesticide acumination in comb. That you have virus in a colony dose not necessitate that the blame go to the virus, NOR to the varroa that carry the viruses, NOR to weather fluctuations that many blame, that IMO good stock should be able to handle with moderate losses. 

It will probably be a combination of factors, ranging from poor breeding practices, poor genetics, comb contamination, pesticides. But from my experience, the experts will probably find once again some exotic disease to blame, and miss the over picture.


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## Joel

(But from my experience, the experts will probably find once again some exotic disease to blame, and miss the over picture.}

Excellent point Joe. We want the single shooter to blame here and it doesn't exist. 

I've thought about this in some depth while driving the 1500 miles to migrate and 500 miles to market and back over the past week. Sometimes it's hard to concetrate with your voices in my head as the diesel rattles along at 3:00 am. I look at the fact the California pollination has drawn record numbers of bees from all over the country into a small microclimate/area of California potentially allowing the sharing of a variety of diseases and pests to then be scattered back accross the country. I look to the demand for queens and suppliers who are pushing queen production to the limit while fighting mites, beetles, weather and disease, likely resulting in inferior stock. I contemplate the effects of cumophos, fluvalinate and the poisons avialable for bees to bring back and "store" in old comb. I think how rushed most of us are trying to find the time to carry out our craft as we should. I wonder if their is an effect of importing bees from Australia and am confident the recent years weather patterns have had impact. It's seems clear to me there is not a smoking gun and that we really should not be suprised at what we are seeing.


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## tecumseh

pcolar sez:
There are 6 known mechanisms to varroa tolerance in honeybees. It is appearing to me that in this early feral recovery time, the sub populations of ferals tend to have several of these mechanisms What is interesting is that either the order of prevalence, or combination of these traits

tecumseh replies:
it seems to me that what you are describing here pcolar is a cumulative (additive) gene model (as opposed to mendelian genetics)????

pcolar adds:
I understand that bee experts have been dispatched all over the country with microscopes in hand

tecumseh replies:
gotcha.... I think. perhaps I should say that when I did take a beekeeping class at the local cow college a lot of years back that part which I enjoyed the least was microscopically dissecting a honeybee. appreciated the knowledge, but really couldn't see the point.

mizz tecumseh (who is kind of the pro in residence in regards to these kinds of things) likes to suggest that it does not seem logical to teach a student to use a microscope without teaching them first how to see. 

but to defend the lab folks (and I do definitely appreciate the little lady at the state bee lab that can id the difference between a european and african bee using her little microscope) ... I think I should point out that if you do have a problem that can be identified with a microscope??? it sure is good to have someone around who know how to use one... and has the patience to set there and get the job done.


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## Troy

I sure would appreciate someone who could ID an AHB with their microscope. 

I'm in Central Florida which is currently on the cutting edge of AHB territory.

A simple thumbs up, thumbs down on each colony I come across would sure be appreciated. I sure wish the test were simpler.

I'm a new Beek and frankly I don't know how they are supposed to act and so AHB or not is a big HUGE question mark in my mind almost every day.


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## Kieck

Troy,

Identifying AHB with a microscope involves taking series of measurements from samples of bees and comparing those measurements to measurements from bees of known parentage. The measurements are things like angles between wing veins, etc.

My opinion of the "AHB or not" question like you asking has been very nicely answered in the past by beekeepers such as Michael Bush on this board:

If your bees are so hot that you don't like working them, requeen. Otherwise, keep 'em. 

It makes no difference to me, either, if the bees are AHB or not. Hot bees are hot bees. If I'm not comfortable working them, I don't want them.

The microscope side of your question will take hours per hive. I've done similar sorts of things -- work like that is tedious and time consuming. I recommend making up your "test:" Are these bees too aggressive/defensive for me?


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## BjornBee

Troy, 
There is a simpler or faster "test' that is being refined. It involves taking 30 worker bees and killing them. Then after removing thier abdomens, wieghing them. There are wieght ranges that most bee strains fall into. It is an easy field test but you do need a laboratory type calibrated scale.

This works with standard bees. But with smallcell, this test may not prove as effective.

It is a simple test that can at least forcast with 100% that it is not a AHB colony, but also can be less effective in stating if it in fact is. You can say, no thats not african, but this one is unknown. It would allow you to narrow the additional testing and save time and resources.

I am sure this will be helpful in the future, and hopefully more information will be available.

[ December 18, 2006, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## sqkcrk

No, peggjam. The Inspectors job quit me. But let's not argue.


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## peggjam

"No, peggjam. The Inspectors job quit me. But let's not argue."

   .

Just yanking yer chain Mark....pretty effictively too..I might add. Merry Christmas







.


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## beemandan

On the Fl and Ga colonies dying....from this month's ABJ (Dec06) page 1011 by Randy Oliver. 

"Northern California beekeepers were blindsided by a corn syrup issue. Apparently, some syrup remixers were overheating the liquid, and sending out a syrup that the bees did not thrive on, or possibly even hurt them. The issue is being resolved, but it is too late for any damage done this year."

'Possibly even hurt them'. Could this be part of the problem? He stated that the problem is 'being resolved'. Does that mean it hasn't yet been resolved? Was this limited to CA only?


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## George Fergusson

>If your bees are so hot that you don't like working them, requeen.

That's all well and good but it does nothing to answer the question "are these africanized honey bees?" which is a legitimate question! I'm thinking it's an answer that someone who hasn't encountered AHB would give. It's a fine answer if someone asks "are these bees too hot?", but that's not the question.

Most beekeepers will be asking themselves if a hive is too hot long before it reaches the level of defensiveness normally associated with an africanized honey bee colony.

Maybe a better answer to the question "Are these AHB?" would be "If you have to ask, they're probably not AHB." but somehow, that's lacking too


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## mobees

You hate to see these losses, and I guess it is more important to know what was the cause. But I'll bet there were a lot of colonys unaffected. These Queens should be selcted as breeders next year. If I have a weak colony going into winter I just let nature take it's course. And do splits next spring to make it up. I wonder if these losses are primarally pollenators, who run their bees harder than a honey producer.

I'd like to hear more beekeeper accounts of the status. In our capitalist society you always wonder about the validity of info and whether someone with a motive to look for excuses to justify pricing power.


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## naturebee

"Bee Losses Puzzle Experts"

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061222/NEWS/612220347/1178


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## tecumseh

thanks for the article link pcolar. 

for those who have never visited central florida... lakeland is a most attractive medium sized town dotted with perfectly round (sink hole formed) lakes. at one time it was considered to be the center of the citrus area of florida.


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## BjornBee

Nice link Joe.

In the past several years, much has been discussed about the california market and almonds. More and more from the east are being lured out west for the bigger pollination fees. And not all the hives come back east.

Not much has been said about the pollination in the east. Pollination has been getting by on very thin margins. Several large Florida pollinators sold out in previous years, and the numbers of available hives are decreasing. If it were not for the hurricanes a couple years back, and the destruction/damage of many orchards trees in florida, (which temporarily decreased hive need)it was hard to imagine how pollination demand was going to be met.

I know the past several years, the eastern shore area has been scrambling at the last minute to fill vine crop pollination needs. And you hear more and more beekeepers not willing to go into cranberries and other later crops in the north.

I think in the west there is some "reserve" pollination market hives. I am not sure that the east has the same flexibility to overcome devestating losses if it reaches some critical stage.

Does not sound good. But as a optimist in the capitalistic free market, temporary created demand will be filled with supply by creative business people. And if not by the beekeeper in the U.S., then by outside forces.

[ December 22, 2006, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## RSUCHAN

Read this deal & then called down to Florida to check it out with our queen people. It's true. Lots of dead outs, lots of small clusters & no one seems to know why. The people we deal with are very, very good beekeepers. So it's not a question of care. They do a great job of taking care of business. We have gone thru 4 or 5 hundred of ours. Look great considering the time of the year. I always hate to look at clusters from now untill February 15th.


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## naturebee

They just changed the link from 'free access' to prompt to subscribe. IF you missed the article, sorry bout that, or mabye you will have to subscribe.

Boy, if Barry had the tailgater open, I'd give that 'ledger.com' some bad words!


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## florida pollinator

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2006/12/22/209295.html?title=What's+the+buzz+on+dying+bees?
Another article on our ongoing problems. If the link does not work go to baynews9.com and look for what's the buzz.


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## BjornBee

Joe, I can still link to it.


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## Mike Gillmore

"mite that made its way here from South America".

What "mite" are they talking about here, Varroa?

What virus do they suspect is gaining access though this bite?

[ December 22, 2006, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Mike Gillmore ]


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## naturebee

Hi Mike!

Talking bout Varroa.

Although there are several viruses, they are probably talking about DWV or ABPV or as yet to be determined virus or combinations of.


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## BjornBee

Joe, I think your on the right path.

I think sometimes we try to associate the collapse of a colony to some pinpointed virus.

As with humans, if your autoimmune system is compromised, it many times is a combination of several virus/bacterial/desease factors, that causes failure. There could be items in bees, that if left healthy without the compounding issues that man have thrown upon them in a short period of time, they would be able to handle them. Instead of bees handling the spread of deseases on a level of natural spread, and taking thousands of years to spread, we as humans have done it literally overnight with more than one desease.

Pneumonia usually kills the very old or weak with humans. Weak could also mean someone with other secondary problems. (Cancer treatments, aids, etc.) But for most of the population, it would not be a serious factor.

Now imagine bees with a complete breakdown of thier immune systems, as we know can happen with the mites. Deseases normally handled by the bees would be devestating and compound them together at one time with multiple viruses, with no natural bee immune systems in place, and complete failure is guaranteed.

Imagine the person with aids. How many deseases, normally not life threatening, that now can be deadly with no immune system in place. Apply the same concept to bees.

We know that there are about 17 viruses associated with mites. But what about the others that are not mite related and are naturally occurring and have been with the bees all the time, but are deadly just the same once the immune system is comprimised by the mites.

[ December 22, 2006, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## jjgbee

On the question of how to identify Africans. 1. they are hot. 2. They lay side to side top to bottom 3. When you pull a frame out, the will desert their brood and form festoons of bees on the bottom of the frame then fall back into the box. 4. If you give them a strip of foundation they will construct small cells 4.9 Note: They are very hard to requeen.


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## sierrabees

The biggest risk in situations like this is we all tend to get tunnel vision. Nothing wrong with that as long as you are looking down the right tunnel, but if you aint whoopee, time to call the banker for another loan.


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## mobees

The scary thing is that nobody is 100% sure what is going on. I keep hearing about treating for Varroa when the bees are broodless. It seems to me if you wait too long to treat, you risking having a hive full of sick bees.

I hope the experts are asking where the Queens came from. I was reading this interesting newsletter on Bee Viruses and "Vertical Transmission" and Latent Virus and nutrition issues, very interesting. I hope some of our Queen sources aren't exaserbating this problem.

http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/NovDec2006.pdf


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## Mike Gillmore

Just read an e-mail this morning from Jerry Bromenshenk who was in FL investigating this situation. 

> "Joe asked...Anybody have "report published last week by 
researchers in Pennsylvania and Florida"

I don't know that the report has been published, released for general 
distribution. I have a copy, suggest that you contact Jerry Hayes. I'd be glad to 
publish it on our web site, if Penn State and the Florida participants give 
us permission.

The report DOES not provide any answers - it acknowledges that this is a 
real problem, but no one knows the cause.

I've just spent the week in Florida, and my colleagues have been to 
Pennsylvania and Georgia. We hear reports of the same in Texas - hope to get down 
there next month -- and possibly California.

First impressions -- affected colonies have NO old bees, nor are there any 
dead bees in the hive or in front of the hive -- often not even the normal die 
off. In most cases, the queen is still present, and a cup or two of young 
bees are working hard to re-establish the colonies. Brood chewed out, 
emerging adults stuck in cells, some with tongues out. Curious note, even the hive 
beetles are gone -- and none of the hives are being robbed out. Occasional 
wingless or deformed wing bee.

Colonies are in all types of habitat and crops, no common denominator. Most 
cases in Florida are migratory bees from New York, Maine, Wisconsin, 
Pennsylvania.

No common management -- i.e., mite treatments, etc.

Some evidence that there may be transfer of problem from hives set side by 
side, but so far has not spread to nearby (few hundred yards) beeyards.

We see some clues concerning colonies, points of origin. We ask anyone on 
the list who experiences this set of problems to contact us. We want to try 
to map out the origin, distribution, and spread of this phenomenon. Thanks 

Jerry

J.J. Bromenshenk " <


Hive Beetles absconded... no robbing out... very strange.


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## Joel

It's positive at least we have a confirmation that this appears to be something other than just a bad season. Even though the news is not good it is a starting point. 

{Some evidence that there may be transfer of problem from hives set side by 
side, but so far has not spread to nearby (few hundred yards) beeyards.}

Which would lead one to think drifting although some other vector must be at work to spread what ever is happening.

Do we know if anyone is mapping the outbreaks and I assume they are tracing the migra trail back through the season to see if there is a common source location. 

Not pointing any fingers but Jim F. raised concerns about the inspection and importation of bees from Austrailia last year? Likely just coinincedental but I'd be interested to revisit what he brought up and what effects that particular issue had in relation to what we are seeing.

Jerry, what should we be doing to facilatate the experts?

[ December 23, 2006, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Mike Gillmore

Dick, 

I've seen this personally, on a small scale, with some of my hives too. 

At one site I've had 4 out of 6 apparently healthy hives collapse just as described. At another site just a couple of miles away they all appear to be doing just fine... no losses and all strong. 

A couple of weeks ago I picked up one of the "dead outs" and brought the boxes back to my gagage and was very surprised to find a ragged looking, but live, queen still on one of the frames... and no workers.


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## George Fergusson

>Jerry, what should we be doing to facilatate the experts?

Alas Joel, Jerry Bromenshenk is not a Beesource member. Pity. He is a Bee-L contributor however. With the cross-posting going on, I trust everyone will be informed of the latest developments in this case.


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## soupcan

As I said I made the call to our queen people in the south. The are real concerned as to what they are seeing for dead outs & lots of small clusters. They hope that in 30 to 40 days the maples will start to bloom & the fresh nectar will change things. Never the less this problems will not be explained overnite & is major cause concern. One beekeeper thinking out loud did seem to think that one load of bees hauled south with under truck exhaust showed no problems. The next load with single stack to above the top of the cab exhaust he thought that the exhaust side of the load were all junk. The other side seemed fine so far. I do know that they have reformulated diesel fuel lately for the 2007 models. It's just a thought. Seems strange that we have queens from these people, we don't migrate & our bees look real good for the end of December here in the midwest.


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## dickm

>>>>There is a simpler or faster "test' that is being refined. It involves taking 30 worker bees and killing them. Then after removing thier abdomens, wieghing them.<<<<

Bjorn,
I hadn't heard of this. Do you have a reference? Jerry Hayes, at EAS, mentioned a test in the works that involved juicing some bees and looking for certain enzymes in the soup that only exist in AHB. The problem with hot hives for me is not "working" them, it's having a place to keep them safely. 

Dickm


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## naturebee

==========someone wrote:
{Some evidence that there may be transfer of problem from hives set side by 
side, but so far has not spread to nearby (few hundred yards) beeyards.}

Which would lead one to think drifting although some other vector must be at work to spread what ever is happening.
==========End

This is possible!

But to illustrate just how extremely difficult this phenomenon will be to solve. Consider that several factors may be at play, and in combinations that may make it difficult, if not impossible to pinpoint of an exact cause.

That these die offs are affecting single beeyards and not a yard several hundred meters away, could potentially suggest a genetic factor due to the propensity for beekeepers to split colonies, leaving the daughter colonies in the same yard. So this lead needs investigated.

Also, not sure how many have noticed in the affected areas. These symptoms first appeared back in June-July, and I have made comments on these lists back in August of the apparent starvation of many colonies and lack of brood being seen. I remember also that Mike (Bjornbee) also commenting earlier this season about observations of symptoms being apparent back in July. 

So we are looking at something that potentially was affecting the colonies several months ago (damage done and GONE) and only now investigating after symptoms as they appear in the present. In affect, we are investigating in many cases a dead patient that may have been exhibiting symptoms several months ago and the death we are seeing NOW simply due to other factors such as starvation. 

A key might be to find colonies that are still healthy and exhibiting symptoms in the early stages. For example, our Chief Apiarist Dennis vanEngelsdorp mentioned to me in a personal email the curiosity of a apparent lack of pollen in these colonies. Jerry on Bee-L noticed NO SHB in these dying colonies. This suggests to me that the SHB abandoned the colonies long ago due to lack of food. The lack of SHB might also suggest a contamination factor in these colonies driving them out. But looking at it from an SHB perspective, I assume this is a later stage symprom and they left due to lack of food.


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

I've experienced the same kind of bee trouble in the early 70's before mites and beetles, treatments, etc. I'd inspect a beeyard in the late spring. It would be a boomer. Returning 3 days later, all the bees would be gone with only a few cups of young bees, lots of honey and brood, and the occasional queen left in the hives. A yard would be left with a hive or two of unaffected bees.

There wouldn't be any evidence of pesticide poisoning as no dead bees would be found in the yard. And this occurred before any pesticide were applied to the crops.

At the time, we called this disappearing disease. It was devastating when, at its height, I lost about 400 colonies per week. Most of the losses occurred in the Western states. 

Once the dandelions starting blooming the disease abated.

It was attributed by researchers at the Laramie Bee Lab to an influx of African genetics .

Regards
Dennis

[ December 23, 2006, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: D. Murrell ]


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## loggermike

Dennis,
I remember being told about this in the 70s by a Chico,Ca. beekeep who called it 'fly away'.He said it was due to African genes and the bees would fly out in cool weather never to return.They had to do 100% requeening to get rid of that strain.No personal experience with that ,just what I was told.


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## George Fergusson

>It was attributed by researchers at the Laramie Bee Lab to an influx of African genetics

Eh? In 1970? I realize that there's scraps of genetic material from all over the world in our bees including egyptian and african, but this sounds farfetched.

>At one site I've had 4 out of 6 apparently healthy hives collapse just as described.

Mike, have you been in touch with (for lack of a better term) the authorities?


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## BjornBee

George, there are many secrets in the world of bees. As Mulder stated, "the truth is out there!" You may need to look a little deeper.


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## Mike Gillmore

George,

No, I have not. The requests for reporting these cases seem to be canvassing the larger operations suffering huge losses. I am keeping the dead out equipment seperate for now until we see some kind of resolution. I sure don't want to risk contaminating the rest of my colonies if this happens to be something communicable through the comb or boxes.

I will be contacting two of my local associations I belong to and find out if there are any other similar cases that have been reported in this area, and seek their guidance. 

We had a terrible fall flow here and I know that in November there were many local reports of dead-outs due to "starvation". Perhaps this new phenomenon was masked behind the starvation supposition.

I'll be following this very closely. I'm stunned that after the focus and attention this has received we still have no conclusive answer for it. This may end up being a quick devastating blow, then things straighten out, and we never really find the answer as life returns to normal.


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## naturebee

This situation appears different than the disappearing disease described by Dennis, also associated with TM and varroa. 

In these colonies, an apparent lack of pollen and honey is apparent. Bees dwindle over a period of several months.

Here below is a response pending approval that I submitted to Bee-L.
The symptoms appear different from the classic disappearing disease. 


Hello All!

Having inspected some colonies with these symptoms and reviewed Jerrys great observations, I will post my first impressions. As WRONG as I know they probably are, I consider them as first impressions, and do not stand firm on what I suggest as the situation evolves my impressions will evolve also. 

Jerry wrote the symptoms = *

*NO old bees.
*No dead bees inside or outside the hive.

Here in my area,,,
What comes to mind is PAs Chief Apiarist mentioned to me in a email the curiosity of lack of pollen in these affected colonies, and I support this observation in the colonies I have seen exhibiting symptoms starting sometime around June-July. IMO we are looking at something that was potentially affecting the colonies several months ago (damage done and or gone) and only now investigating after symptoms as they appear in the present, and therefore symptoms observed now may not reflect the actual cause. We are investigating in many cases a dead or dying colony that may have been exhibiting clear symptoms several months ago and the death we are seeing NOW potentially caused by other factors such as starvation, dwindling and failure to thrive ect. complicating and deceiving the investigation.

From my observations earlier this season, there seemed to be a perplexing inability for the affected colonies to collect pollen or sufficient nectar to maintain minimal brood nest functions. Due to the clear stress signs caused by this apparent lack of nutrition, I assume the colonies would have been doing all they can in reassigning of younger and younger bees to forager status, and reducing egg production due to lack of nutrition. 

The symptoms of dwindling I observed in some colonies was very gradual, and few dead bees inside or outside the hive was obvious to me over the length of several months. This observation therefore does not support an absconding event or rapid dwindling from varroa suggested by many, which IMO would have exhibited distinct symptoms associated with such an event had varroa been the cause. Its as if something is affecting these colonies ability to find or communicate the locations of nutritional forage, its as if foragers are getting confused, lost and misdirected in the field which may explain the lack of dead bees near the colony over worked and dying out in the field or lost. One thing, they certainly are not bringing sufficient pollen and nectar back to the colonies. 

*A cup or two of young bees are working hard to re-establish the colonies. 

This I am seeing also. And I may add, what small amount of bees that are left look healthy and very small broodnest seemingly healthy, EXCEPT for the apparent inability to manage adequate brood production, honey or pollen near the nest. 

*Brood chewed out. 
*Occasional wingless or deformed wing bee. 

My gut tells me, depending on severity, this could potentially be normal symptomatic of varroa and minor DWV and perhaps related, or perhaps not, but the timing certainly is right

*Curious note, even the hive beetles are gone.

This is a great observation!!!!
Due to this obvious lack of SHB in these colonies, and considering the SHB keen ability to select colonies from amongst the group that would have sufficient food. I assume the SHB voluntarily abandoned theses colonies weeks earlier as the colony was in decline due to an apparent lack of food / attractants (pollen honey). 

This is a great observation, because the fact that the hive beetles are gone suggests to me that a reduction of the SHB attractants (pollen and honey) preceded the bee dwindling event!!! If it had been a rapid dwindling or absconding event, with all the pollen and honey left behind and less bees to protect it, the SHB would have made short work of the infected colonies. This IMO is important information showing the symptoms of lack of pollen possibly occurring several months earlier. The development stage of any existing SHB could be noted and may suggest a SHB departing date. 

It would be interesting to compare stored pollen levels in these colonies with that of unaffected colonies and also pollen content in recently stored honey.

*Emerging adults stuck in cells, some with tongues out. 

Perhaps, this could be unrelated to the actual event and symptomatic of the later event of chilled brood caused by dwindling, OR perhaps not. 

*And none of the hives are being robbed out. 

Another great observation, worthy of noting!!!! 
In the colonies that I have inspected here in PA, robbing was also observed to be rather non existent. I assume here the cause was because there was almost NO uncapped honey or nectar, and very little capped honey, the odors that would cue a robbing event. 

This important to note because this particular observation does NOT support a rapid dwindling or absconding event. This observation is more suggestive of a gradual reduction in stored honey preceding or coinciding with a gradual dwindling of bees to match, which are IMO a prerequisite for maintaining colony stabilization and protection from robbing while the colonies fundamentals were being eroded. This is what we are seeing here, although these colonies are as small as a few hand fulls of bees, the fundimentials of colony stabilisation seemd to have been maintained which suggests a gradual, if 'I may say' orderly decline. 

*Some evidence that there may be transfer of problem from hives set side by side, but so far has not spread to nearby (few hundred yards) beeyards. 

That these die offs are affecting single beeyards and not a yard several hundred meters away, could potentially suggest a breeding or management related factor due to the propensity for beekeepers to split colonies, leaving the daughter colonies in the same yard. So perhaps this might need investigated also.

It might be important to find colonies that are still healthy and exhibiting symptoms in the early stages, checking pollen foraging rates and comparing levels of stored pollen and nectar.

[ December 23, 2006, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Mike Gillmore

Have any test been performed yet to conclusively "rule out" Nosema Ceranae? 

The reported observations seem hauntingly similar to what they are seeing in Europe. Hate to keep beating a dead horse... but, yea or nay?


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## suttonbeeman

astro Zom bee

It seems to be tied to an area around Ruskin-Riverview Fl. My bees in Ruskin (200 in one yard) I lost about 1/4 of them and the rest were not near as strong as other two yards and I have only 35% matings of queen cells in late oct. The other two yards (200 hives)located near Ft. Meade Fl(40 miles East) had a great pepperflow and look great. All bees were shipped from Ky in late sept. A friend of mine has lost over 1/2 of his operation(1400 dead out of 2500). He also lost 380 nucs out of 400 near Ruskin. All bees he lost were in Ruskin/Riverview area. Bees near Ft Meade and in Ft. meyers did not sustain any losses. He stated mite leavels prior to shipping in sept were mosely 0 to 1 mite per hive in roll. Only a few had 2 mites! Upon microscopic examination it apperas the bees stomach is in a mess. When I hear more I'll post it....But some big losses!!!


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## naturebee

--He stated mite leavels prior to shipping in sept were mosely 0 to 1 mite per hive in roll.--(SB)

Great observation! I noticed this also!
It appeared that in the infected colonies, the lack of brood production was devastating to the mites. I had difficulty detecting a mite in most of these colonies. 

--Upon microscopic examination it apperas the bees stomach is in a mess.--(SB)

Interesting! Please expand on this!


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## florida pollinator

I don't where the lack of pollen and stores information is getting picked up at but....The bees here in florida were on a brazilian pepper honey flow .
They were healthy looking hives that in the case of single split hives made burr comb under the palet.In a period of 4-8 weeks they were empty boxes with no(0) bees in them.A few of the last to go to bee with Jesus had a queen with about a dozen bees left.These are the bees penn state have as samples.Between 3 of us in which I had the bees on a honey flow over 4000 hives are dead from this..They did not starve. 
As of right now a beekeeper in ga.has lost over 1000 hives another in Pa 1000 and Jerry B.has recieved word 2 or 3 large operations in tx are now saying the same thing.In all cases it was all normal beekeeping until the bees were found dead.Also ca is now reporting some large losses
This seems to be some type of virus problem that has not been seen on this type of scale here. The best thing I think we could do right now is start calling and writing your congressman to ask for more help and money to the usda bee reaserch programs for virus work.


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## Mike Gillmore

florida pollinator, 

That is the exact scenerio that I witnessed here with my handful of colonies. They were going like gangbusters right up through September... plenty of bees and brood, and within a month or so they were toast. The only odd thing that I noticed ahead of time was that they were very light towards the end of September, and when I started feeding they refused to take the syrup. A month later the colonies had no bees. 

The dead outs I examined had several frames of pollen stored and some nectar was present also, not enough for winter but they should not have starved yet.

I'm not convinced that this is a queen issue because spring splits from these dead colonies that I set up at another site have not been impacted at all... they are alive and well. It just hit one yard.


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## George Fergusson

>You may need to look a little deeper.

Thanks for the shove Bjorn. So the USDA was actually importing africanized bee semen from Brazil to Baton Rouge as early as 1959 and africanized queens and semen were subsequently shipped to Madison Wisconsin in the early 60's. Some escaped no doubt, so it's virtually a certainty that a feral population of africanized bees- or at least bees with african genes- has been quietly spreading across the country for the last 40 years.

I gotta chew on this for a while.


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## Fusion_power

African genetics in the Northern U.S. are severely handicapped because they do not cluster for winter and have other serious non-survival traits like flying at deadly temps in bright sunshine. The only way they can survive in the north is by interbreeding with European colonies that have wintering traits.

The big problem is that they can survive in a ring across the southern U.S. from Florida, southern Alabama, Mississippi, all of Louisiana, and most of Texas. They will eventually spread across Southern California leaving only the northernmost part of the state un-africanized. Intercrosses will be spread in a range bordering the fully africanized regions.

I'm going to go against the flow with some of the previous comments. The evidence tossed into this thread does not point to a virus as the probable cause though viruses may be part of the problem. Here are the things I see:

1. An entire yard of bees is affected. This indicates it spreads by drifting bees that abandon heavily affected colonies.
2. The reports of affected bees are from both commercial operations and sideliners.
3. The pattern of distribution follows the east coast migratory route and is spread across Texas.
4. The report of bee abdomens "in a mess" is the most telling statement so far.
5. Mites are almost non-existent in affected colonies and beetles have gone elsewhere to eat.

Based on the above, the best guess is that a new disease is affecting the bees. It will probably not be a virus, more likely to be a microsporidian. This would fall in line with a new variant of Nosema but conclusive proof of this will require lots of lab work.

Darrel Jones


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## suprstakr

I'm new but listen well.lets see.
No old bees.
No brood.
just young & Queen. 
Sound like feeld bees bringing something back thats killing them and the grubs.
Could it be a polen that is poisinous.


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## Mike Gillmore

> "Could it be a polen that is poisinous."

Thats possible, but in one case there was another group of colonies just hundreds of yards away and they were not impacted at all. Surely the bees would be foraging on the same source, and if it was toxic, all colonies in the area would be affected. 

It still seems to point to something commumicable.


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## JWG

"affected colonies have NO old bees, nor are there any dead bees in the hive or in front of the hive -- often not even the normal die off. In most cases, the queen is still present, and a cup or two of young bees are working hard to re-establish the colonies. Brood chewed out, emerging adults stuck in cells, some with tongues out."

This is exactly what I was seeing in a handful of colonies in Sept. The bees-in-the-cells, tongues out and chewed out comb were quite disturbing. Along with a lot of deformed wings and some small abdomens. Colonies had been in good shape all summer, & I had treated with Sucrocide in July and August. 

I ended up uniting and requeening the failing colonies, and they bounced back. I was surprised. They were dragging out dead and deformed (live) bees for weeks. Some of the rejected bees did not look unhealthy at all. I thought the populations would shrink way too far, but evidently there was JUST enough time for new brood to emerge and produce a winter-worthy cluster. It is early but as of a week ago the clusters looked fine and I expect these to overwinter OK. 

This probably sounds like typical PMS/varroasis but it was not seen in all colonies in the yard, and all colonies were managed the same way through the season.


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## George Fergusson

>African genetics in the Northern U.S. are severely handicapped 

Granted, but remember, these africans didn't migrate to Wisconsin on their own accord. They were imported. By the USDA. Where africanized bee's would end up in the US if left to their own devices is arguable. Where they end up and how they cope is another story when we interfere and start hauling them around the US and introducing their genes into the soup. All bets are off in that situation.

>The only way they can survive in the north is by interbreeding with European colonies that have wintering traits

Which is exactly what I suspect has been happening. Dennis Murrel said the Laramie Bee Lab diagnosed his "fly away" disease as being due to an influx of african genes. In 1970. Go figure.

What has me scratching my head just now is that the africanized bees that have made their way north from Brazil since the 1950's are able to maintain their genetic purity(?) even while interbreeding with European honey bees. That is not what has happened elsewhere here in the United States, if in fact african genes were introduced into our domestic gene pool back in the 60's.

But we're getting far off-topic here. I don't believe for a second that the current die-off problem we're seeing is related to African genetics.... do I?


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## Michael Bush

>africanized queens and semen were subsequently shipped to Madison Wisconsin in the early 60's. Some escaped no doubt

I'm not aware that they were attempting to confine them. I don't think they had to escape. Swarm? Well, they are AHB aren't they?


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## loggermike

Low varroa levels.Bees on a flow rules out starvation.There are viruses associated with nosema and tracheal mites as well as varroa.Maybe the new strain of nosema(ceranae) is making its debut with a splash.Or it could be a new mutated virus.Lots of guesses but we will have to wait for real answers.


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## Joel

{Imagine the person with aids. How many deseases, normally not life threatening, that now can be deadly with no immune system in place. Apply the same concept to bees.}

This is an important point. It is unlikely we have a suddened "sickness" or genetic impact that would degrade colonies in a single year this way. I suspect if we look back over previous seasons the symptoms are there on a small scale. The autoimmune system break down when you look at the cluster as a "single organism" could very well have been magnified by a poor season in many areas this year combined with a residual buildup of whatever vector or combinations of vectors we are dealing with. Dr. Shiminoko preached this is the common path for almost all hive collapse due to disease or parasite. Is there anyone who saw this last year and where?

Mike mentioned the trail seems to be along the east coast migratory route and into Texas. Mike what's the source of this information and do we have any timiing on where this was discovered 1st.

The new strain of Nosema, which would seem to be consistent with the "gut" examinations described,should have similar symptoms as the common strain here. It would seem if this is the case it could clearly be seen in the larger apiaries. The small amount of nosema I have seen over the years has been quickly detectable even without disecting bees and treated very easily and effectively with fumagillin or fumadil B.

We really need to map this as accurately ase we can. This allows us to compare many other seasonal factors into the equation. Someone here had the smarts to set up a map which beekeepers located their operations on. If that individual could set something up for this issue and set a strict set of posting rules perhaps we could get some quicker feedback as to where. 1000 hives in Penna. 1500 in Florida, some in Texas, California. If we posted operations large and small that had showed a high likelyhood of being a result of this problem and a proposed date of discovery it might be a good tool for all of us and possibly the researchers who are likely too few and swamped with what they have.

What about a questionaire for our memebers who experiance this with such details as 2005/2006 queen or package source (by area not supplier), purpose of the bees (honey/pollination/hobby/migratory), any disease issues in 2005/2006, hive losses-reason. 

Are the folks here (Bjorn, PColar) saying they are seeing any sypmtoms on hives that can clearly be seen prior to collapse during inspection othere than the obvious when we see a queen with a few young workers. The lack of pollen and feed seem to be a common factor. Our area saw a considerable amount of rain and cooler temperatures during golden rod this year, our main pollen flow, but we still seemed to do well in our pollen traps. Not collecting pollen would either seem to be related to a lack of need (low brood as described, but is also a very clear genetic trait. There should have been a noticable pulse for those who collect pollen or closely manage bees well before the goldenrod pollen bloom here.

[ December 24, 2006, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Mike Gillmore

> "If we posted operations large and small that had showed a high likelyhood of being a result of this problem and a proposed date of discovery it might be a good tool for all of us and possibly the researchers who are likely too few and swamped with what they have."

What an excellent idea!


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## George Fergusson

>lack of pollen and feed seem to be a common factor.

I'm not sure. That seems to be an observation that Joe came up with when looking at some distressed colonies in PA this past summer and may or may not be the same problem Jerry Bromenshenk and others have been investigating in Florida and other places. Perhaps it is. I don't know for sure if the colonies that Joe was looking at actually ended up suffering the same fate. Perhaps he can clear that up.

In fact, Jerry said there was "no robbing" going on- this would imply there were stores to rob otherwise he'd have said "no stores". At least that's how I interpret what I've heard. Mike's experience was similar- he said there was pollen and nectar/honey in his deadouts.

That's not to say that there aren't symptoms such as lack of stores and brood early on in the onset of this "problem", it's just not a given fact from what I've heard so far.

>Mike mentioned the trail seems to be along the east coast migratory route and into Texas.

I think that came from Jerry Bromenshenk's initial summary- that the deadouts he and others had looked at were all migratory hives that came from Maine, Pennsylvania, New York, etc.

Joel, your suggestion for a mapping and poll exercise is good. To be useful, it would have to clearly allow us to distinguish between PMS-killed colonies and those that died from this as-yet-unknown cause.

>Lots of guesses but we will have to wait for real answers.

No! This isn't BEE-L, we can speculate wildly!


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## Axtmann

We had similar problems here, especial in Franc when bees came home with pollen from gene-manipulated plants. This genes produce poison in plants to protect them from all kind of diseases and bugs. 
Pollen from these plants has the same poison like the whole plant and kills  paralyses- bees like the other bugs. It was a terrible problem with sunflowers and as far as I know the government stopped the manipulated seeds. But now, I think its Bayer but Im not sure, tested gene-manipulated canola seed and we all hope there is no harm to our honeybees.
IMO during summer it is not a big problem, bees stored most of the pollen but as soon as they eat them it was a catastrophe. My question is, whats happen with our customers and us, is the pollen poison for us too? Can we sell our honey and pollen as a pure natural product? Whats happen when we feed this kind of pollen to our bees?


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## drobbins

Joel

at one point I messed around with google maps and built this doohickey to map AHB spread

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/ahb.php

there was absolutely no interest  
if folks think it would be useful in tracking this problem I would be glad to dust it off and try to add any functionality folks want (within reason







)

Dave


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## loggermike

>No! This isn't BEE-L, we can speculate wildly!

Of course you are right George-thats why some of us are Bee-l refugees.The value of this thread is it should give those who are looking some leads to go on(if they are even reading this).If enough smart guys like you give their input ,theres a chance this can get solved.I hope those who are close to this will keep posting.
I wont be checking my overwintered hives in their holding yards till next week,but I can tell you I am getting a bit nervous about it.


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## naturebee

--What about a questionaire for our memebers who experiance this with such details as 2005/2006 queen or package source (by area not supplier), purpose of the bees (honey/pollination/hobby/migratory), any disease issues in 2005/2006, hive losses-reason.--(Joel)

Hello Joel!

I regret that I cannot elaborate much on details due to confidentiality of personal correspondence. But I can say that there is an early effort started to map this thing out. Im not in charge of this thing so its up to those in charge and doing the research to publicize the effort when and if they are ready to do so, I have to keep my nose out of it until such time. 

In brief, there are early stage efforts using GPS to map the locations of affected areas, and beekeepers in these places (or so I understand) have volunteered to go out and do this. The attempt here, is to map out the origin of these colonies, movements and record the spread of this thing, potentially might reveal where the syndrome may go next, or at least show more information on its spread in relation to how these occurrences may be related with other information gathered. 

They are finding that many colonies that are affected have spent time in other locations, especially in the Maine, New York, Penn, Florida run. The syndrome can affect an entire apiary, yet another apiary several hundred yards away not showing any clinical symptoms. Also an interesting side note is that early suggestions by those looking this syndrome is of a potential link to microclimate/weather fluctuations. The theory here is one that I have stated many times previously. And that is, that the stresses caused by combinations of as of yet unknown factors, although compounding with each additional stress are still not sufficient to cause colony collapse. And as the theory goes a microclimatic weather event, in sufficient severity or timing of the weather event may be the final stress that topples large regional bee populations.

--- Not collecting pollen would either seem to be related to a lack of need (low brood as described, but is also a very clear genetic trait. There should have been a noticable pulse for those who collect pollen or closely manage bees well before the goldenrod pollen bloom here.

A good point! I have noticed these symptoms back in June / July during inspections. But the fact of the matter is that it is not uncommon for beekeepers to not recognize fluctuations in pollen, nectar or brood for what they are. IMO, many beekeepers tend to think that honeybees are all equally at the mercy of fluctuating environmental conditions, and that a reduction of colony performance is inherently tied to the local climatic conditions. I do not believe that environment stresses all colonies equally, and specifically watch for colonies outperforming during times of severe stress. Where others may blame lack of performance, brood production, pollen or nectar collecting else ware and hence ignore or not recognize the symptom, I tend to have a propensity to consider low performance in particular areas as more related to queen fundamentals rather than environmental.


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## naturebee

=====you wrote==>
> "If we posted operations large and small that had showed a high likelyhood of being a result of this problem and a proposed date of discovery it might be a good tool for all of us and possibly the researchers who are likely too few and swamped with what they have."

What an excellent idea!
====end===>

I respectfully disagree strongly!

The attempt here as was directly explained to me my those involved in the scientific community, is to map out the spread of this syndrome and NOT to affix blame or hurt reputations, intentional or not. 

Please!! 
Lets be tactful and adhere to the appropriate strategy that will benefit us in solving this problem. 

Please, Accept that the comment below was sent to me by a highly respected researcher investigating this bee kill event. 

Obviously, all of this will be kept confidential in that we won't spell out individual beekeepers in reports, etc -- purpose is not to affix blame, but to understand the origin, spread, and possible prediction of where it may show up next--(Anonymous)

If you want the participation needed to solve this problem, keep it confidential. If not, we will never solve this bee kill event and all may suffer as a result!


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## Mike Gillmore

> "Lets be tactful and adhere to the appropriate strategy"

What is the strategy?

If I remember correctly I have seen requests from those doing this research to contact them if we have any information we feel may be related to this phenomenon. 

The confidentiality of beekeeping operations makes perfect sense, but data compilation of locations, # of hives impacted, etc... seems to me that they would consider this valuable information.


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## drobbins

Joe,

are you suggesting that this couldn't be done as some sort of mapping app on the internet and provide the necessary confidentiality to get beekeepers to participate?
this may well be true, I don't know the people involved

Dave


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## Joel

Joes' right in his concern, he is speaking from an inspectors point of view and his position is as it should be. Even if we are using Data in a positive manner that does not mean it would not have a negative impact on someone who depends on bees for living. Many good points Joe, thanks. 
This issue tips a ton of domino's for next season including large queen and bee shortages to replace just the losses so far. This may be the next industry buster for all we know. 

I think many would volunteer information, some in name and others anonymously where needed to help get a step up on what potentiallly appears, at least at this time, to be a big impact scenerio.

I for one think disease and pest has little or nothing in most cases to do with blame. When I hear 1000 hives lost in Pennsylvannia I (and most other beeks of any size) immediately know who and also know I (or any of us) could call the person and he would be forthcoming and open and willing to share what ever information necessary to help find answers to this issue. I suspect since his family in New York also have bees in large numbers and migrate the same schedule he may be affected as well. I also know them, they would be just as forthcoming. That does not mean we would or should publish their personal information.

We have a mapping program already in use for beesource members. I don't recall who set it up. It can be done annonymously if someone feels threaten or paranoid about the issue. Does anyone know who did this, could we see if it can be done in theory. I know the researchers are on this but when I look at the AHB spread maps they are always a couple of years behind. I respect what the researchers are doing. I would like some real time information so I can try to get at least a concept of what I'm up against for next season. I doubt the research team will have thier data gathered, interpreted and published in any short order.

We all need to get past the "it's the migratory guys fault" or "the guy who migrated to California", or the "guy who imported Aussy bees". The root may be with any of those (or not) but we can't blame the beekeepers who do this these things (me included) so their families can live inside and eat. We can't solve problems when beekeepers who depend on this for a living have to be concerned about negative impact.

Bob Harrison is probably right smack in the middle of this so hopefully if he gets a chance he'll chime in.

[ December 24, 2006, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## naturebee

--Joes' right in his concern, he is speaking from an inspectors point of view and his position is as it should be.--(Joel)

Joel,
I'm not an inspector, but I will go and inspect colonies when asked, and give my assessment, especially those I am mentoring. I enjoy looking at colonies I havent seen before and attempting to evaluate what is happening. For some reason, I get great satisfaction in solving mysteries in colonies and teaching others how to solve these things for themselves. 

I am not affiliated with any such state agency, I am totally independent. But everything that I see in any operation or email transaction are treated as confidential, and between those involved. It is important to me that those I visit, or plan on visiting in my trust in my confidentiality.


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## drobbins

Joel,

I think the mapping app you mentioned is this

http://www.frappr.com/beekeepers

that's a pre-packaged thing that doesn't allow much in the way of customization 
I know how to use the toolset and can taylor a similar app to do whatever we might want, but I'm getting the impression people just wouldn't put their personal data into it
ole well, I just think it's a neat tool, wish I could find something kool to do with it

Dave


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## soupcan

Axtmann, Please tell me what gene altered plants that farmers now grow today do this???? I would love to know.


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## Joel

{Joel,
I'm not an inspector}

I thought that Joe, I think you might make a good one! The views you express of confidentiality are what I think and inspectors should be. Your recent posts indicate to me you are staying on the cutting edge. I appreciate your opinions. You Penns Woods boys kind of start out a little bristly in your early days and then launch in to some top posters. Good stuff. 

Dave, I think people will participate. I'll PM you and lets see if we can get something going here.


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## BjornBee

I will not speculate on what is the cause. I do not know. Thus far, I have heard AHB, pollen, GM plants, etc. I don't think any of them are the key. I think someone said it best when it was mentioned that this is something that will quickly pass, and the answers will be lost in the passing time.

I will make a few observations.

I first started seeing, and formulating thoughts on these type situations two years ago. A beekeeper I know lost an entire yard of 24 colonies. No explanations to be found. Mites were not an issue but were present. All were inspected in the fall. No notable problems existed. A sweeping virus was about all that could be said.

In looking at the natural state of bees in general, we know that bees are not group or community insects, beyond the colony level. In nature, thier colonies are selected by natural availability of nesting sites, often seperated by good distances. 

We keep bees in close quarters. This unto itself allows a sweeping virus that normally would spread from one colony to another and would come against many natural barriers in the natural setting, to do unbelievable damage once exposed to high colony numbers in close quarters.

I think through the years, we can see that this type outbreak has been seen before. Even if its been on a lower scale then today, it has still been seen thoroughout the beekeeping years.

An outbreak frequency that may be low in impact in the natural setting of feral bees would be increased and magnified when bees are grouped, as with migratory practices. Take these higher risk encounters and now multiply the factor by some unknown variable due to unnatural levels of desease transmittion due to man's spread of mites and other deseases. The possibility of outbreaks I believe can be for a host of reasons. Much of this I believe is connected to the immune system of the bees being comprimised, the way we group bees for migratory practices, and other factors including breeding. It will happen from time to time whether we find an answer or not.

We know that there are many known viruses that effect bees. And probably just as many we don't know. Just as with humans, which "cold" will be caught next, what flu will be the major player from year to year, and which desease will mutate from a lesser impact player to one that will mutate much stronger? Nature has a way of changing the game from time to time.

I would strongly suggest that beekeeper not put all thier eggs in one basket. Two yards of ten, is better than one yard of twenty. Big pollinators don't have much of a choice. Thats where you hear of much of the damage. They have increased exposure but also are much more "seen" when something goes wrong. I think the impact is smaller for the hobbiest due to limited exposure to sweeping virus outbreaks, and when it does happen, losing two hives is usually associated with something other than a sweeping killer viral outbreak.

I think these type outbreaks affect most species of the world. And I believe that the answers will be elusive. Outbreaks will be seen from time to time.

A viral outbreak if left to its own devices in nature is probably remote, and shortlived from one season to the next. We not only allow it to spread to huge numbers of colonies by our beekeeping practices, but have multiplied this natural process by spreading "compounding" deseases with mites and other spreadable deseases. Making this type situation more frequent and more deadly than it should of ever been, if left to nature.


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## summersetretrievers

My husband is a high school science teacher. The genetically altered plants were one of his suspicions when I showed him this thread. Apparantly some plants have been genetically manipulated to be able to defend themselves from insects i.e., their pollen will kill insects keeping the plant healthy. The pollen has been known to drift (maybe spread by bee's) to other area's outside an area planted with genetically modified plants thereby contaminating or spreading their genes to otherwise regular plants. Perhaps with storage of pollen in hives when the bee's begin to eat the pollen they die?
Seem's likely there is probably more than one cause to this problem of disappearing bee's. 
I does sound like beekeepers should be fighting genetically modified plants though!


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## summersetretrievers

Here are a few links 
http://www.foe.org/safefood/geplants.html
http://www.hippocratesinst.org/html/articles_the_problem.htm
http://www.gmo-safety.eu/en/news/527.docu.html
http://www.gmo-safety.eu/en/oilseed_rape/honey_bees/339.docu.html
http://www.biotech-info.net/bee_j_editorial.html
http://www.biotech-info.net/JR_testimony.html
http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefings/bees_honey_gm_crops.html
Interesting reading.....scary to say the least


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## David Stewart

Chasing the GM theory for a second, I'm curious how many GM crops (specific) are planted along the East coast (outbreak plume)? I'm only familiar with the GM corn and soybeans of the midwest and as yet in this thread I haven't seen a link to midwest beekeeps.

P.S. I agree with a previous poster who didn't think it was pollen related as yards in close proximity and by default similar forage plants weren't affected. Edited after more thought- This of course would ONLY apply if both yards were on the same forage during the period when pollen was being gathered. IF yard A was on a GM crop and yard B was on something else during pollen gathering then it COULD explain why only yard A showed symptoms and suffered the dieout.....hmmmmm? 

David

[ December 25, 2006, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: David Stewart ]


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## soupcan

I have been keeping bees for almost 30 years. 30 years in corn, soybean, & alfalfa country. Yes we have had BT corn for 10 or so plus years now & Round Up Ready beans for about that long also. Untill someone checks the hives, dead & alive for pollen & what not every body is just guessing.I am still waiting to to hear what altered row crop plants emit this posion pollen


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## BjornBee

David, if #1 yard was 1 hive, and yard #2 was one hive, I could see some credibility. But side by side yards of a larger number of hives in the hundreds, tells me that this is not feasible. Unless these hives were brought from different points of origin after the pollen was collected elsewhere. But this so far has not been stated as so. It has been suggested that these yards are the same except for being a small distance apart. Eeverything else being the same.

I see nothing to suggest pollen and/or GM plants.

[ December 25, 2006, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## gardenbees

http://pewagbiotech.org/resources/factsheets/display.php3?FactsheetID=2 

According to this article, Georgia's cotton crop is 94% GM and North Carolina's is 91% GM with both of those percentages increasing every year. And although soybeans seem to be a large crop here in NC it seems according to this article that GM soybeans have not caught on here too much yet. Theresa.

[ December 25, 2006, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: gardenbees ]


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## David Stewart

Soupcan says---every body is just guessing---

Although I prefer the use of the biological term "theorizing" which is what it appears the experts are doing in attempt to gain an understanding of this. As a possible theory aka guess is offered up, they attempt to validate or discredit it....I can't for the life of me see a link between crops GM'd for weed control (round up read beans for example) having much to do with it. Crops developed for larval insect control is another animal all together....Hard for the chemical to distinguish between a good grub and a bad one.

Bjorn- I meant to imply different point of origin, I apologize if that was not clear. Think if Yard #1 containing 250 hives was placed in GM crops DURING pollination and Yard #2 with 250 hives was on non GM crops during pollination and Yard #1 has now crashed 95% of it's hives and Yard #2 while (now) located accross the road less than 100yds away is doing fine I offer that it is still a possibility worthy of further study.

Gardenbees- Thanks for the research info. on GM crops in the S.E.

For what it's worth, I'm not arguing (or convinced) that GM crops are the issue but I am certainly open to the possibility.

David


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## summersetretrievers

In a round about way GM modified foods could be contributing here is an excerpt from an article by Joe Rowland
The most important research finding in this area has recently come from Jena University in Germany. Researchers there have shown that a gene used in GM canola transferred to bacteria in the guts of bees. I believe this is the first publicly documented case of horizontal gene transfer from GM crops to bacteria within any animal. This discovery may have major implications for the future of GM crops. One main objection to GM crops has focused on the fact that during genetic manipulations required to create GMO's, antibiotic resistant "marker" genes are combined with the so-called genes of interest. These combined genes are inserted into the target plant together. Within the plant, the antibiotic resistant gene has no expression and is harmless. However, if this gene were able to transfer out of the GM plant and re-enter a bacterium, this bacterium would become antibiotic resistant. This might render commonly used antibiotics useless against diseases attacking humans and livestock, including honeybees. 
Couldn't this be making bee's more susceptible to diseases?
Cindy


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## Fusion_power

No Cindy, it would not.

It would be making micro-organisms more tolerant of antibiotics.

The objective is to use less antibiotics in the first place.

Darrel Jones


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## summersetretrievers

??? From the above it looks as if the diseases the bee's have could become resistant to antibiotics because of the above transferance of antibiotic resistance from the GM modified gene to the honeybee. If the diseases they have become antibiotic resistant then the antibiotics used to treat the diseases will be useless. 
Off to NC til Friday Merry Christmas everyone!
Cindy


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## beemandan

If my memory serves me....it often doesn't....Bt genetically modified plants (cotton for one) work by producing Bt internally and insects feeding on the plant tissue ingest the Bt (a sharp edged compound)and it physically damages their digestive system. Now, if that same compound were also delivered in the plant's pollen or nectar it might explain one of the symptoms described:
suttonbeeman wrote "Upon microscopic examination it apperas the bees stomach is in a mess."


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## tony350i

This is from a thread on a Uk site; maybe GM crops are reasonable for the field force of bees disappearing.


GM Crops testing has been going on for 10 years or more. I personally have lost the whole apiary only when the crop came into bloom. Its not Mother Nature! And its not natural we can all see and hear what its doing to our bees but do nothing about it because we are of one. Together we MIGHT have a chance. 


Looks like we could have the problem over here.

Tony


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## drobbins

there was some discussion of an online mapping app to collect info on this phenomena
I have a first whack at one built
in light of the conversations here about GM crops it occurs to me that mapping the location of these GM crops would be very useful too
does anybody know if this info is publicly available?
it would be nice if the government told us where the frankenfood is being grown









Dave


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## mobees

It should be easy to findout what crops bloom during the losses. Bees only forage a few miles and only a few crops would bloom during a a couple of week period. If this is a GM issue you would think some of the pollen would return to the hive and there would be a pile of bees in front, like a pesticide kill. Unless they are killed in the field on contact, It's got to be pretty lethal to do that.


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## Barry Digman

Has it been established that the deadouts were all migratory hives?
And does anyone know whether the pests left before the hive died or after it died?


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## scsasdsa

Has anyone else with hive losses had large scale BT sprays done in their area. I hadn't thought BT a product thought safe would be the cause of such dieoffs but the spraying of BT for the control of gypsy moth and woods moths in Vermont during early july caused myself to experience allergies that before had not been a problem. Might this type of spraying used to control larvae be killing off bee larve when young and causing or contributing to decline. Could this be brought back to the hive by foraging bees with the pollen and fed to bee larvae causing further decline. If fed to bee larvae during swarm prep when queen cells are started cause the queens to fail rendering the hive queenless. Just a thought.


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## Joel

Dave, I sent you a PM per our previous discussion. I think the GM crop is a long reach at this point and may skew the results.

Let me know and we can coordinate the effort so we coincide.


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## George Fergusson

>Has it been established that the deadouts were all migratory hives?

Most were migratory, at least one large operation was not migratory. New reports are still coming in and they haven't gotten to Texas or California yet.

>And does anyone know whether the pests left before the hive died or after it died? 

You mean the SHB? That has not been established from what I've read.

Most of the colonies they've been looking at are dead, apparently some are in the process of dying, and some appear to showing early signs of recovery.


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## Barry Digman

<Most of the colonies they've been looking at are dead, apparently some are in the process of dying, and some appear to showing early signs of recovery.>

Hmmm. It sure seems like the wholistic idea is making the most sense right now. A combination of factors rather than a single cause. I'd like to read the Pennsylvania State University report. The news articles say it's been published. Anyone have a link yet?


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## George Fergusson

>The news articles say it's been published. Anyone have a link yet?

Jerry Bromenshenk said it hasn't be released for general consumption yet. I'm just repeating what I read on BEE-L


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## drobbins

I put together a webapp to try to collect info on this phenomena

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/bees_dying/wasting_disease.php 

you guy's help me figure out what the proper info is to try and collect, it's open to change, don't put real info into it yet, but feel free to mess with it (you can put bogus data in)
if we could build a viable tool and get folks to put data into it, it might be a useful gadget

Dave

[ December 26, 2006, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## Mike Gillmore

Excellent Dave.


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## drobbins

Mike

wrong answer
I can write the code to make it work
you guy's help me design the form to collect data
what should we ask??
I just threw something up as an example
what should the header say??
I'm afraid it'll scare off the commercial guy's
how can we get em to put in some info?

Dave


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## Fusion_power

What have they been foraging on recently?
What were they foraging on in their last location?
What breed (carniolan, NWC, Italian, etc.)
What is the source of the queens?
What treatments have been used recently?
How much honey is left in the hives on average?
Do you intend to re-build in the spring?
If so, by splits with new queens or buying packages?
Were the die-offs recently treated with fumagillin?
Have combs been tested for pesticides?


Just a few thoughts for your questionnaire.
Some of these may be a bit sensitive so use discretion.

Darrel Jones


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## drobbins

FP

getting close to bedtime around here (at least past coding time) but your suggestions will be added in tomorrow morning
this isn't live yet, just open for discussion
I'll add your thoughts in and we'll see what folks think of em

thanks for the input, good suggestions

Dave

[edit] you guy's put some made up info it there
I want to test it and make sure it doesn't break
use area codes for your worst enemies or best friends (or old girlfriends)
it' supposed to catch bogus area codes (test it)

[ December 26, 2006, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## Mike Gillmore

Dave,

I think what you have here is perfect. Right now I believe the people investigating this deperately need to know how widespread this may be so they can quickly get a national geographical footprint.

Keep it simple. And it is non-threatening. A person can remain anonymous or if they are comfortable, leave contact information so those doing the research have an opportunity to follow up if needed.

Under "comments" you may want to change that to "Additional Details" or something along those lines where optional info can be added.... surrounding habitat, Mite treatments used, queen info, ect.


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## mobees

Some nice pictures might also be useful, if possible. Brood Patterns/size of remaining
clusters.


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## drobbins

hmm,

cool idea
I can add that functionality
good thing I have tomorrow off









Dave


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## drobbins

Mike

that's "exactly" what I was looking for
I can code the stuff
I have no skill at phrasing things and that may be crucial here
give me comments as we go along and we'll get this "live" by Jan 1

Dave


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## suprstakr

Well another theory,
Chesnut trees have been almost destroyed a while back and I've bee told chesnut polen is poisinous to grubs.new cultivars are appearing everywhere as fungus free ornamentals.In spring all types of polen is brought in and stored for the build-up. Few dead grubs are unnoticed and poison polen is burried in stores.Fall rolls around and old field bees are dying and the replacement winter grubs beeing fed the last of the stores of polen, which could be mostly poison type.Few grubs suvive (those are the new bees you find)rest die ,and we have a small brood and a queen trying to get the hive going.Reason for saying that I noticed a chesnut growing in my woods which is gone now.


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## Barry Digman

<and we have a small brood and a queen trying to get the hive going.>

As I read the reports of dead hives, it seems that many of them are found with a queen and a handful of young bees still alive. I wonder why queens are surviving? Does it indicate that whatever is killing the bees is not only external but is also not being transmitted from bee to bee inside the hive, at least not to the queen?


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## suprstakr

Maybe the chesnut polen is poison to brood not bees


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## drobbins

it's my understanding that bees don't consume pollen, they just feed it to the brood

here's another hack at a webpage for reporting info
I'm still working on the picture upload part

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/bees_dying/input.php

Dave


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## Mike Gillmore

Looking good Dave. You may want to change the "South East" or "Gulf Coast" to ... "United States". 

The range seems to be widening and it's important that all states are included in the data base.


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## drobbins

done
how bout a name for the problem?
I don't want to be responsible for naming it "wasting disease"  

Dave


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## Mike Gillmore

Good question Dave. Maybe something like this...

"Worker Depletion Die Off"

"Disappearing Bee Syndrome"

Read over this current update from the reseachers.

http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0612d&L=bee-l&T=0&P=5598


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## Barry Digman

Dave,
I keep getting an error message that IE can't open the page.


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## drobbins

which page?
the one with the form to enter data or the one that draws the map?

Dave


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## WG Bee Farm

In the 1982 American Bee Jounal there is a mention from a commerical beekeeper of a disappering disease occurring in his hives. 
By adding (1) comb of pollen led to a sigificant gain in bees and production.
A conclusion from this could be that a shortage or inferior pollen could create this type of response in the hive.
This article was by Julincevic, Rothenbuhler, Rinderer.
I will try to find a link to this. This was called disappearring disease at that time.
Frank Wyatt
Eden, NC


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## Fusion_power

"it's my understanding that bees don't consume pollen, they just feed it to the brood"

Drobbins,

I think you may be incorrect in this. Under ordinary conditions, the bees feed on nectar and pollen. This is converted to "bee milk" in the hypopharyngeal glands and is fed to developing larvae. Queen larvae are fed a steady diet of royal jelly while worker bees have gradual dilution with honey and lower grade worker jelly.

This is a pretty simplistic view and some argument could be made.

Darrel Jones


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## Kieck

I don't want to throw a wet blanket on the brain-storming that's occuring on this thread, but I keep wondering what changed?

What I mean is, chesnut trees, for example, don't just spring up in a single season and begin producing pollen. Chesnuts that might be producing poisonous pollen this past summer were likely also producing pollen the year before. Why didn't it affect the bees a year ago?

And, as far as GM crops, most of the GM crops being grown are simply RoundUp-Ready. Bt corn, potatoes, and cotten are grown, but the Bt genes are very specific. Specific enough, in fact, that the toxins they produce (not sharp molecules) only affect a few target pest species. The Bt toxin that kills European corn borers, for instance, does not kill most other lepidopterous caterpillars. Besides, many beekeepers are using the same toxins (Bt, that is) to kill wax moths in their hives.

Also, while the percentage of acres in GM crops has increased annually, the percentage of GM crops has been high for years. Why wouldn't the problem have shown up before this?


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## loggermike

What changed? Thats THE question.The commercial guys stick to a plan that works, until it doesn't.So there was a sudden change this year in something.A new pathogen(or an old one changed),a weather change that prevented enough winter bees being raised,a new insecticide,etc.And because there seems to be many different kinds of management involved,finding the common link seems to be where the researchers are looking.I am sure the most obvious ones (varroa,t-mites and nosema) would be the first to be checked for.But they aren't new,we deal with them every year(and lose hives to them every year).So like the old song asks "Whats new"


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## Kieck

I had one hive that showed some of the symptoms described, but I know what happened to it. (I actually thought about starting a thread with some of the symptoms just for fun -- you know, to see how many could actually diagnose what went wrong with the hive.)

It did fine during the summer -- produced a fine crop of honey, had plenty of bees, etc. Then, in September, it dwindled rapidly and died out. All I found at the end was the queen with about 30 workers around her, all frozen.

But I know what happened to this hive. It swarmed in early August (my fault), the new queen emerged in poor weather, and never started laying properly (she probably never mated).

In the end, the hive had stores of honey and pollen, was never queenless, had no real threat from Varroa or t-mites (Varroa drop of less than 2 per week; no t-mites found in regular dissections of workers), yet dwindled rapidly at the end of the season and died.

I doubt all the disappearing hives are caused by the same thing mine was. I wish, too, that I could blame it on something else, but, ultimately, I believe it was poor management on my part.


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## drobbins

coyote
I assume you were talking about the map
it should work now

fusion_power
I'm certainly no expert but I thought adults just ate honey. perhaps someone else will chime in (although it's a bit off topic)

Dave


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## naturebee

--What changed? Thats THE question--(loggermike)

Hello Loggermike!

There has been one major change that I can think of.
A change that the full impact of may have yet to occure. 

We have had over 200 years of feral honeybee existence in the USA, with some estimates putting the pre varroa feral population at 10 to 20 colonies per square mile! The abundance of ferals in the USA without a doubt have had a tremendous impact on the genetics in our honeybees for many years, acting in its magnitude as an great counterbalance to poor breeding and management practices that are all too common in the USA. Feral honeybee populations assuring stability in the domestic population by providing acclimatized genetics, essential survival characteristics and genetic variance in our bees. 

The great honeybee colony crashes of 95-96, in the North East was about the same time as the ferals collapsed. We have seen regional collapses in honeybee colonies every few years since 1996. And without a doubt, an acceleration of inbreeding and poor genetics in our domestic bees is occurring as a consequence. The ferals having recovered today to a mere estimated 25% of what they once were, and only 10 years rebounding from collapse, suggests that we are still in the early stages of this event, and have yet to see how it will actually play out.

[ December 28, 2006, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Barry Digman

"I assume you were talking about the map
it should work now"

Yes, it looks good.


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## Joel

Dave, I would suggest posting the map on a new thread when it's ready.

[ December 28, 2006, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## BjornBee

Pcolar, bullseye.

If you can imagine all the ferals scattered all around the U.S., each as its own unit. Each seperated by distance, some close by, and some rather isolated. Each having desease pressure. Each dictated by the genetics of a single bee, that being the queen.

Now imagine, a virus, (pick one, most have been around a long time) and imagine a small change in the virus make-up. A small change but a deadly one. Now imagine the impact that a deadly virus has in the natural world of bees in the feral population. How far could this new deadly virus travel? What would be the impact? Local, region, ??? Would the change in weather(winter), cause it to die out before the next season, thus killing off the deadly virus, prior to its gaining a foothold the following year.

Humans, deer, tigers, cats, dogs,....all species has had to deal with pandemic(sp?) deadly deseases. Humans are hit normally on a 40 year cycle. Bees are no different.

Now take this scenario, and think what happens, instead of a bees structure of seperated colonies of ferals, and with a much diverse genetics make-up, and apply to the world of bees as we know it today. With large yards of similar genetics, and in yards with bees counting in the hundreds.

With the added deseases, the weak genetic diversity, and the beekeeping practices we use, it would take a small change in any one of the virueses we know already existing, to change to a more deadly strain, and wipe huge numbers out.

If you read the older ABC-XYX, they speak of great colony losses over a hundred years ago, called dissappearing desease. This prior to any v-mite being present.

Sick bees leave the hive to die. Sick bees do not collect pollen or honey. Throw in a poor honey season, and many directions can be taken with guesses.

I'm betting on a strain of virus, and one that probably reared its head before, and one we will see again.


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## naturebee

Nice letter BjornBee!

Hey, we'll have to get together sometime next season, your on the same page as I am.

Have you talked with Dennis Van ,,,,?
Has he any ideas concerning the syndrome here in PA?

Last we talked, he stated he was pretty busy looking in the microscope and sample slides, I kind of do not want to bother him too much right now. I need to talk with Dennis about the symptoms, and how they are varying from area to area of the state, which is a focal point of interest to me.


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## BjornBee

Pcolar,
I'm staying out of the labeling/researching part. Not that there is anything wrong with it, just not my bag. I expect one day to hear something along the lines "We have found a variation of XYZ virus, or some similar variation" and we beleive this is what caused it.

I know its one step at a time, but I am more intersted in the steps, precautions, and lessons learned (if any). I think its out of our control, and dictated by nature. Viruses change with time. So what do we do? What can we do to change breeding, beekeeping practices, and safeguard against (or at least minimze) events in the future?

I have my own ideas and possible plans. 

I'll just be glad when the smoke clears, someone publishes a paper or two, someone gets to name some new "found" virus, and we can move on.

Joe, I have been told your not as bad as my initial view on you. Guess were both too stubborn for each other. I would like the opportunity to meet you.

I'll be going up to the state office next week, or the next. I'll let you know what we discussed.


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## peggjam

"how bout a name for the problem?
I don't want to be responsible for naming it "wasting disease""

Dwindleing Bee Disease or DBD for short. 

"But I know what happened to this hive. It swarmed in early August (my fault), the new queen emerged in poor weather, and never started laying properly (she probably never mated)."

I spent alot of Sept pulling swarms out of the trees. It could be it....but wouldn't someone notice all the swarms....?

"Now imagine, a virus, (pick one, most have been around a long time) and imagine a small change in the virus make-up. A small change but a deadly one. Now imagine the impact that a deadly virus has in the natural world of bees in the feral population. How far could this new deadly virus travel? What would be the impact? Local, region, ??? Would the change in weather(winter), cause it to die out before the next season, thus killing off the deadly virus, prior to its gaining a foothold the following year."

Bjorn

You may be onto something here. It wouldn't take much to spread a virus through a holding yard like it would through a widespread feral population.


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## naturebee

--I'll just be glad when the smoke clears, someone publishes a paper or two, someone gets to name some new "found" virus, and we can move on.--(BJ)

I'm with you on this.
My best guess (Just my theory) is that it will be a combination of poor breeding practices, non acclimatization, and the breeding of treatment dependant bees, aggravated by the feral depletion. These things together lower the health of a colony causing a magnification the effects of ALL stresses exhibited on a colony; e.g, nectar shortages, winter, varroa will all affect a colony much more severely than they would have otherwise. 

IMO, because these things cannot be easily diagnosed, they will NOT be discovered as the cause. What will be discovered as the cause is the same as you have suggested, a viruses. Im thinking that the lowered health caused by the poor genetics makes the colonies susceptible to these viruses, perhaps genetically fit bees are not susceptible to these viruses 

--Joe, I have been told your not as bad as my initial view on you. Guess were both too stubborn for each other. I would like the opportunity to meet you.--(BJ)

Email tends to do that. I also have a bad habit to type short and to the point, and it often can be interpreted as rude. I was told you are a very nice guy and I would see that if we sat down and had a pizza.









--I'll be going up to the state office next week, or the next. I'll let you know what we discussed.--(BJ)

That would be great! Thanks!
Say hello to Dennis for me!

Best Wishes


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## George Fergusson

Joe, I am not surprised that you come to the conclusion that the problem is a result of genetically unfit bees being subjected to an unfortunate series of circumstances that finally stress them to the breaking point because that is your general perspective on bees and the state of beekeeping. Basically you're saying genetically fit bees don't get sick and die, which I'm not sure is a completely valid argument.

If for example this really does turn out to be a new variant of an old virus for which our bees are largely unprepared, what does genetic fitness have to do with whether they succumb to it or survive? Certainly, healthy bees would be better able to deal with the problem, but if they're unprepared, they're unprepared and that's pretty much that.

I do happen to believe that Bjorn's "crowded bees" perspective is applicable to the situation though indications are that close proximity of many hives isn't absolutely necessary for this "syndrome" to manifest. It could explain why some large yards are suffering near 100% loss, but it doesn't explain the relatively isolated small yard losses.

In any case, it is nice to see you and Bjorn being so friendly









George-


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## BjornBee

George,
"close proximity of many hives isn't absolutely necessary for this "syndrome" to manifest." 

I agree. It just shows that viral outbreaks and kill levels that are normally much lower in the natural state, is compounded or multiplied many times over by our beekeeping methods. I had already stated that for some small hobbiests, losing 2 hives would normally be overlooked, and blame easily attached to other reasons. Only when it hits huge operators and thus large numbers of killed hives, do we dig deeper.

I think these small changes in viruses are what you say george, something the bees are not ready to deal with. I agree on the surface of what pcolar said, that bees genetically are weak, we have bad management practices, some years allow the "outbreaks" to be worse due to the seasons forage, etc. I also agree goerge, that in the end, there may be bees that succomb and thats the way it is. I just think we do alot to magnify the problem, and although we should consider this part of nature, it is something to understand, expect, and find ways to minmize the future impact. 

Let us know George...we can always order a larger pizza if you want some.


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## tecumseh

george sezs:
I do happen to believe that Bjorn's "crowded bees" perspective is applicable to the situation though indications are that close proximity of many hives isn't absolutely necessary for this "syndrome" to manifest. It could explain why some large yards are suffering near 100% loss, but it doesn't explain the relatively isolated small yard losses.

tecumseh replies:
well this would very much conform to jared diamond (guns, germs, steel) analysis of the sudden flourishing of disease vectors (historical). I would suspect george that your would have some difficulty locating an isolated small yard anywhere along the gulf coast. likely impossible in florida... southern louisiana maybe.


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## sqkcrk

On Bee-L it was reported that this is happening to colonies in South Carolina, amongst other states.

I would like to know if this is in migratory operations or nonmigratory operations. SC gets lots of colonies from NY.


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## naturebee

--Basically you're saying genetically fit bees don't get sick and die, which I'm not sure is a completely valid argument
--what does genetic fitness have to do with whether they succumb to it or survive?---(GF) 


What I meant was colonies that have that have the most contributions to fitness are the colonies most likely to survive. For instance, some contributors to fitness are: 

There is a significant relationship between many fecundity characteristics and most colony measures of fitness during the growth phase of colonies
(Tarpy & Page)

Increased genetic diversity has a direct influence on task diversity, disease resistance and other factors determining colony fitness (Oster and Wilson), 

Genetic diversity and provides a buffer against fluctuations in the environment, influencing fitness (Crozier and Page). 

Colonies with a high level of polyandry will have a substantial fitness advantage because of differences in growth rate during colony development (Cole & Wiernasz). 

There are significant correlations of brood viability to winter survival, influencing fitness (Tarpy & Page). 

Worker population is an important indicator of colony fitness and is arguably the best variable to distinguish non-linear effects of brood viability (Tarpy & Page). 

Worker population effects a colonies fitness because a larger colony is able to collect more nectar and store more honey during the active foraging season, thereby increasing the food reserves that are necessary for it to survive the winter (Seeley).

Basically, when I assess my ferals, I am looking for these things that give them a fitness advanatge. These are the things that contrubute to disease resistance and health of the colonies.


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## George Fergusson

>I just think we do alot to magnify the problem

Bjorn, it's crucially important to see this. It's even more important to work to correct the situation. This should be discussed further.

>Let us know George...we can always order a larger pizza if you want some.

No onions! I hate onions...

>I would suspect george that your would have some difficulty locating an isolated small yard anywhere along the gulf coast. likely impossible in florida... southern louisiana maybe.

Good point. Even here in Whitefield Maine, there are 5-600 migratory hives within a mile of my place every spring, dwindling on blueberries









>Increased genetic diversity has a direct influence on task diversity, disease resistance and other factors determining colony fitness 

Can't argue with that, nor was I. I'm a strong proponent of genetic diversity in bees, and for that matter, in dogs and humans


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## summersetretrievers

What about the possibility of toxic amounts of medications accumulating in the wax? I had read somewhere that this is a problem. Is anyone researching this as a possibility?


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## suprstakr

NO you can't get grants for poison wax.


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## sierrabees

No matter what gets the ultimate blame on this Bjorn's concept of crowding is a factor. A brief look at human epidiemiology as well as that of other species will show that major outbreaks start out in major population centers. True, there will be small yards and even individual backyard hives with the same or similar symptoms, but in humans, plague, cholera, etc. also showed up in small towns and villages once it became established. It has been my experience that there is usually one primary cause to most deseases but whether or not they develope depends on a wide variety of secondary contributing problems. Infectious agent + strong healthy host with low level of stress and vigerous imune system = low level of symptoms and recovery. Infectious agent + host in poor condition, under stress, in crowded conditions, with a poor immune system = difficult if not hopeless case. This is why accurately identifying the problem early and taking corrective action quickly is the key to success.

It would be good if someone could develope a differential list of symptoms that we could share to help us all with quickly identifying this particular syndrom.

Example:

Strong hive less than ? weeks before dead out discovered.
1. Robbing
2. Absconded
3. Poison
4. Tracheal Mites
Additional possable causes as they apply

Percent of hives in yard effected greater than X
1. Starvation
2. Abnormal weather condition
3. Predator problem
Again, any other possable causes listed

Adequate food supply still in most hives
again list appropriate known causes

Queens sometimes present with insufficient bees to maintain her
list of possable causes.


Once all of these observations or symptoms are identified and the possable causes of each one are either confirmed or eliminated it is possable to tentitively say if it is the same as our unknown desease or not. There is no way to get good reporting unless each person who reports a loss is using the same yardstick to measure with.


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## tecumseh

pcolar sezs:
What I meant was colonies that have that have the most contributions to fitness are the colonies most likely to survive. For instance, some contributors to fitness are: 

tecumseh replies:
not wishing to be a wet blanket pcolar fitness has a very specific definition in genetics.

loosely stated fitness is the number of individuals that survive to a reproductive age. so most queens have a fitness of 1 or 2 while breeder queens fitness may number in the thousands.


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## empilolo

sierrabees wrote


> A brief look at human epidiemiology as well as that of other species will show that major outbreaks start out in major population centers.


I fully agree with that. Furthermore, I would be inclined to say that migratory beekeeping would be an epidemiologists worst nightmare come true. All the ingredients for a real desaster to happen are right there.

A shame NEC (National Epidemic Center) of the US would not be interested, I guess. But epidemiologists are trained to investigate such incidents - professionally.


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## empilolo

Oooops. Sorry, also wanted to include foll link.

http://www.doh.gov.ph/nec/software.htm


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## naturebee

--loosely stated fitness is the number of individuals that survive to a reproductive age. so most queens have a fitness of 1 or 2 while breeder queens fitness may number in the thousands.--(SB)

Not sure about that SB. Fitness is defined by the number of individuals that successfully reproduce. A colony that produces thousands of drones and fails to have a drone successfully mate, is less fit than a colony that produces a single drone that successfully reproduces.

As far as breeder queens, that might be more suggestive of artificial type fitness.


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## Barry Digman

Just so I'm following this, the suggestions are:


1.) A completely new disease

2.) A variant and more virulant strain of an existing disease

3.) An existing disease that has "bloomed" (ala the recuring algae blooms) due to a combination of external factors such as weather

4.) Normal outbreak of an existing disease exacerbated by the way we manage and/or breed bees

5.) An outbreak secondary to genetic engineering of forage plants.

6.) Chemical buildup in the hives reaching critical mass

[ December 31, 2006, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: coyote ]


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## sierrabees

I think somewhere someone suggested 5. An outbreak secondary to genetic engineering of forage plants.


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## tecumseh

pcolar sezs:
Not sure about that SB. Fitness is defined by the number of individuals that successfully reproduce.

tecumseh replies:
well it was I and not sierrabee (SB?) that made the comment and I do believe that the genetic definition is related to the individuals that reach the age to produce offspring and not the one's that 'actually' reproduce. of course the last genetics class I took was about 20 years ago, so my genetic dictionary could be a bit blurred.

but really pcolar I have no problem with your 'loose' definition of the word... I simply wanted to suggest that some folks definition might be a bit more rigorous.


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## Barry Digman

"An outbreak secondary to genetic engineering of forage plants."

Yes indeed. It's added. Thanks.


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## Michael Bush

Or
6) Chemical buildup in the hives reaching critical mass...


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## soupcan

Chemical build up of what???????????


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## suprstakr

the chemicals your loading into the hives


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## soupcan

That's the point. There are a number of beekeepers involved in this deal that use no chemicals. All natural items are being used to treat the little critters. One of our beekeeping neighbors was almost wipped out this last fall. He made up 3000 1 framers in April. He ran them as singles. Made over a hunbred pounds a single. Hauled them to Texas as always in the fall ( late fall ). Talked to him 3 days ago. Lost less than 2% on the ride to Texas. All are wintering real well & is feeding them every 15 days or so. All are already leased for almonds.


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## Barry Digman

<Chemical buildup>

Ok, on the list.


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## dickm

This is no time to be insular. If you have information about hives dying en masse pass it on to Jerry Bromenshenk [[email protected]]. He's one of the investgators and has the software to do any charting. I don't see how starting our own chart would help. 

I had a six hives go down, with the same symptoms. No bees left. A few bees in the hive with the queen. Sudden decrease in a few weeks.
Stores OK. I suspect mites but with this going on I'm ready to jump on the wagon. I wonder how many there are like me, that would have ignored some losses except that there is a big scare on. A commercial guy once told me that everyone loses half their bees every year.

Dickm

[ December 31, 2006, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: dickm ]


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## sierrabees

Dickm

Good Point! That is exactly what we need, a place to centralize the information. We still need a check list of what symptoms to include so we don't inundate Jerry with false positives. It would be helpful if he would draw something like that up and publish it here.

I have had similar situations in two small yards but there are too many other possabilities to cloud the water with this data unless I can feel pretty sure it's apples and apples.

I saw too many incidents in practice of professionals making a diagnosis without sufficient evidence, then reporting it and having it end up in the statistics.


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## Mike Gillmore

If you have experienced losses that exhibit similar characteristics to the ones that are being investigated, I'm sure that Jerry would love to hear from you... commercial or hobbyist. 

It does not mean that your report will end up as a statistic, but it may give them a clearer picture of the possible spread of this phenomenon and help them to project where it's going to surface next.

If everyone remains quiet then we are restricting the focus of the investigation and may possibly be denying them a vital piece of the puzzle.


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## Barry Digman

I don't think anyone here has suggested that information on bee losses should be withheld. In fact, it seems that the map that Dave Robbins put together provides the opportunity for everyone to share that information. 

Beekeepers should certainly get that infomation to the boys in Montana also. 

Dave's slick map simply allows everyone the ability to track what's happpening. The idea that amateurs shouldn't be doing any mapping or tracking on thier own is akin to telling those interested in astronomy that they shouldn't be looking at the stars out in the backyard through their homemade telescopes, isn't it?


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## Mike Gillmore

>> the map that Dave Robbins put together provides the opportunity for everyone to share that information. 

Exactly. Until the investigating team makes public a map or reporting site of their own we can still be compiling information on Dave's site, which may end up being very useful to them as they establish a national footprint.


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## Michael Palmer

> George said:
I do happen to believe that Bjorn's "crowded bees" perspective is applicable to the situation though indications are that close proximity of many hives isn't absolutely necessary for this "syndrome" to manifest. It could explain why some large yards are suffering near 100% loss, but it doesn't explain the relatively isolated small yard losses.

Well, we'll see. I have an apiary not 1 mile from an apple orchard that was pollinated by one of the migratory pollinators who has lost half of his 3000 colonies. I'm not one to worry about my bees during the winter, but...

I will check a few yards later this month in that area.


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## sqkcrk

Hey Mike. I didn't know you were on Beesource. Belated welcome. It'll be good to hear your perspective here.

If you are refering to DH, I've heard, second hand, some comments he made about the state of our industry that mildly concern me. When a "large" outfit wonders about whether to stay in business or not it makes me wonder too. But maybe it's early to be paranoid.


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## tecumseh

though you might find this interesting. got a bunch of old bee magazines (about 100#) from od frank and I have been reviewing them with great pleasure. what follow is the first two paragraphs of an article from the December 1975 issue of The American Bee Journal, page 480..

Titled: Overwintering of Colonies of Honey Bees With Restricted and Unrestricted Broodrearing in Louisiana. author Norbert M. Kauffeld.

During the I960's beekeeper in Louisiana and Texas complained about the fall and winter losses of bees in their apiaries (the so-called 'disappearing disease').

Oertel (1965) noted that the 'disappearing disease' occrred in Louisiana from late September to early January when colony populations literally disappeared within a short time; only a 'handful' of bees was left; honey stores were present; small amounts of pollen were sometimes present although pollen was generally absent; and brood rearing was almost nonexistent. He found that his checks for pesticide residues were negative and also observed that there were no samples of dead bees with which to conduct any analysis for (Nosema) disease. Willians and Kauffeld (1973) noted that the loss of bees in three commercial apiaries occurred during February which was later than the losses of bees during the 1960's.

finally tecumseh adds:
sounds familar??? you have not entered the twilight zone... da, da, da, da...


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## BjornBee

Posted Demeber 28. 6:50 p.m.....

"If you read the older ABC-XYX, they speak of great colony losses over a hundred years ago, called dissappearing desease."  

Some years and accounts noted.....

1919, oregon hit hard.
1915 texas, california and parts of the Mississippi valley. Ventura county really bad.
1917, scattered in the west, oregon hit.

They did note.."If the desease developed in the midst of a honey flow, the crop was lost"

Seems that lack of honey (And pollen) is a symptom of the desease, not the desease being a symptom of lack of pollen. This was noted as far back as 1975.


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## tecumseh

in scanning the journals a bit further there is another example during the winter of 1975 in wisconsin. that case was by a small (former bee inspector), fumidil had been fed.... he 'specualted' that the cause was genetic and related to the origin of the queens. he suggest directly that he though it was a genetic flaw related to failure to cluster.


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## BjornBee

An additional point, seems now that some want to call this "dwindling Bee something or another..."

As was noted many years ago, a characteristic of the original "dissappearing desease", was qoute "Whole colonies dwindled down to a mere handful of bees and starved brood."


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## loggermike

In the book 'Some Beekeepers and Associates" it mentions that Clarence Wenner(who was a well known Ca bee breeder) had hives in the mountains that suffered 'Autumn Collapse' every year.The bees would just disappear with a super of honey left.He started feeding a protein supplement in Sept and again in Jan and those were his best hives the next spring. Apparently the quality of the available pollen was not adequate for raising enough winter bees to carry the hive over.We see the same thing now when varroa and the viruses wipe out that most important generation of bees .There can be lots of summer bees in the hive but when they die off the hive is toast.


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## naturebee

--Seems that lack of honey (And pollen) is a symptom of the desease, not the desease being a symptom of lack of pollen. This was noted as far back as 1975.--(B)

My suspicions are that what we are seeing these days is some underline problems are affecting foraging abilities in these honeybees. In normal years, this affect on foraging is not noticeable because forage is plentiful and is within the realm of variable performances between colonies. But come a year when conditions are poor, then this lack of foraging efficiency becomes a critical factor in the colonies ability to cope with the poor foraging conditions.


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## George Fergusson

>But come a year when conditions are poor, then this lack of foraging efficiency becomes a critical factor in the colonies ability to cope with the poor foraging conditions.

Is there any reason to believe that foraging conditions this past summer and fall in the areas affected by this syndrome were poor, or poor enough so that "foraging efficiency" was called into play?

The reports I've heard indicate that this was not the case.


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## Michael Palmer

>If you are refering to DH, I've heard, second hand, some comments he made about the state of our industry that mildly concern me. When a "large" outfit wonders about whether to stay in business or not it makes me wonder too. But maybe it's early to be paranoid.

Hey Mark. Yeah, I just found the door. Great site...addictive don't ya know!! I do like being able to "talk" with other beekeepers, and give opinions, without being sensored...not to say I won't remain on the other lists.

Personally, I think it's always too early to be paranoid. I'm getting grey and wrinkly enough, without that. Yes, it was DH, and CM, too. Hard on those folks, and I feel bed for them. I hope the reasons are found, so they can recover their apiaries. But, I will say...I gave up pollination after 20 years at it, because of how my bees suffered afterwards.


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## tecumseh

is it time to put on our tin foil caps???


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## Panhandle Bee man

I was out looking at my home yard today. Putting feeders on the surviving hives (now 4 0f 22). Just before christmas I looked and I had a large hive (double deeps) filled with bees, several frames of brood and about 60 lbs of honey. It had been treated several times with api life var. State bee inspector looked at it in late Nov, all was okay. I had been thinking about getting a queen and splitting it in the next week or so. Today it had 4 bees, 1 queen, and about 60 lbs of honey. no dead bees in the hive, or on the bottom board, no clusters of dead bees in front of the hive.

For the record there are no large crops grown within 10 miles of my house (sorry GM fans), weather has been "average" a couple of cold nights frost etc.. rainfall about average to slighly under average. Golden rod, fall flowers were normal with the bees packing pollen, and honey around the brood nest.

I have been seeing this type of problem since late July. I first thought it was varroa mite problem, and treated, got a good knock down of mites and have had low counts since treating. I have not been seeing wing damage on the bees this fall. It has been amazing (probably not the right adjective) seeing hives that one day had bee beards up the front of a 1 1/2 story hive, then nothing but a couple of bees and a queen.


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## naturebee

--Is there any reason to believe that foraging conditions this past summer and fall in the areas affected by this syndrome were poor, or poor enough so that "foraging efficiency" was called into play?--(GF)


Hello George!

The symptoms described in other areas do suggest that weather was not a factor. But here in PA, all Ive been hearing since late June from the large and small beekeeping operations here in West Pennsylvania is the bees aint making no honey. We were loosing many colonies here do to starvation, which are different symptoms than expressed else ware.

The reason why I suspect underline problems are affecting foraging is that, although incoming nectar seemed sparse for some reason, my select colonies managed to keep brood rearing very heavy and maintained adequate honey cap. Other colonies in my assessment yard were appearing to be staving, and brood rearing ceased from lack of incoming nectar and no honey cap. Neighbors I visited; some had colonies seemingly unaffected by the reduced forage, and others were appearing to be in late stages of starvation with no pollen or honey. 

Very strange, the lack of incoming nectar was clearly affecting some colonies to a very high degree, and others not much at all. The range being seen here was too great to be explained by anything other than a suppressing factor on the foraging abilities in the affected colonies. Also, from casual observations, it seemed that the degree of forage available did not match the severity of stress being seen in the affected colonies. 

--The reports I've heard indicate that this was not the case.--(GF)

I have started ignoring what other areas say the symptoms should be, because they are not what I am seeing. In a syndrome that is affecting the fundamentals of colony functions, symptoms will be different depending on the particular stresses associated with colonies in that particular area, and symptoms varying from region to region. 

For example:

Assuming that some type of underline problem partially affecting the fundamentals of colony function including foraging and immune systems: 

In the West Pennsylvania scenario, the bad foraging conditions caused a gradual dwindling and reduced brood production. This also had the effect of being devastating to the mites. Affected colonies here dwindled and then starved out. The toppling stress being starvation and malnutrition. Symptoms might be: no honey, no pollen and small cluster.

In a scenario where foraging conditions are good in another area. Colonies would be able to collect stores and make brood. But this would also cause an increased varroa population and increase stresses associated with varroa infestation. The toppling stress being varroa and associated viruses followed by absconding. Symptoms might be: Full honey, full pollen and small cluster.

In short, the stresses will be magnified in these colonies due to the ill health. And stresses associated with each location will determine what the clinical symptoms and toppling stress will be for that colony. This is why we are seeing so many varying symptoms IMO.

[ January 03, 2007, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Mike Gillmore

Panhandle Beeman,

It's amazing how quickly they melt away, leaves you speechless. 

I have a question for you... These colonies that you have lost this way, did they supercede or swarm this past spring or summer?


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## Mike Gillmore

>> Very strange, the lack of incoming nectar was clearly affecting some colonies to a very high degree, and others not much at all.

Another little tidbit I'll toss in here that may relate to their inability to forage or store nectar.

In NE Ohio we also saw a very poor fall flow and a widespread lack of nectar storage. I started all of my colonies on syrup in September to help them prepare for winter. All of the colonies were heavily populated and had laying queens and brood at this point. 

At one site I noticed that most of the colonies there were refusing to take the syrup even though they were very light in stores. Within about a month they were gone, reduced to a dead queen and a handful of dead workers. No dead bees around the hives. Two miles away at my other site all of the colonies are alive and well. 

Based on their refusal to take the syrup given, I am wondering if something had rendered them "unable" not only to forage but to physically consume nectar at all?


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## Panhandle Bee man

Mike,

These were all new hives. I made most of them up in early March from 3 frame splits, and a queen cell, a couple were swarms I had picked up. And 2 were with queens lines that had been showing promise (feral x smr). I guess it is back to the drawing board.

No swarms, and I don't think they superceded (unmarked), however when I find them like this I have a fully developed queen.


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## Mike Gillmore

>> I guess it is back to the drawing board.

Not necessarily. 

All of the colonies that I lost had either replaced their queens after they swarmed, or they were captured swarms which superceded the original queen. All mated locally and none were purchased queens.

I guess what I am considering is the possibility of something that could have been spread by drones during mating in one particular drone congregation area. Either a virus the drones were carrying and passed to the queens, or possibly a genetic defect.


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## Sarge

Something has occured to me. I have seen threads on this and other sites about bees not taking syrup. And I have followed the Dwindling thread.
Rabies causes an animal to be unable, due to throat swelling, to swallow. They need and desire water but cannot drink.
Messed up insides, not eating, and possibly therefore unable to produce food for the larva.
Bees would be driven to forage, and maybe even carry pollen yet be unable to feed themselves.
In time they would fly out and die inroute to or from the hive.
This could easily be a virus or chemical that irritates the bees trachea. 

wayne


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## Panhandle Bee man

Genetic defect: not likely in my case, these hive went from 3 frames of brood to a minimum of 1 1/2 stories in about 2 months, some were larger, none were smaller. Genetic defects would of shown up early.

IMO it is viral, whether or not is passed by the drones, I wouldn't care to speculate. My opinion is that mites are surviving longer in the hive due to a lack of a highly effective way to kill them. Which in turn is leading to a more developed viral infection in some hives (the more concentrated the hives, the more developed infections, and easier spread, I have seen these infected hives being robbed out). 

What I meant about going back to the drawing board was that I wasn't going to keep the feral x smr line anymore since it couldn't handle the infection. I have a Jame Bond line, that I have been keeping and I guess I will stick with that. 3 years no treatment 4 survivors from 11 hives. I will graft some queens from them and pick from the best of them. Also I plan on getting a couple of boxes of small cell foundation and drop a couple of feral swarms into those boxes and see what happens.

Greg


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## tecumseh

panhandle bee man sezs:
Genetic defects would of shown up early.

tecumseh replies:
not so fast panhandle.... the incident I read about from a 1975 copy of the american bee journal stated quite plainly that the problem was not related to brood rearing at normal temperature. matter of fact the fellow who wrote the article (a former state bee inspector) describe one hive that 'sounded like' the one you describe. he desribe the hive as continuing to raise brood at a heavy rate right up until mid winter.


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## TwT

Tecumseh, did the guy that wrote the article call what happened to his bee's a genetic defect? I cant see a genetic defect being so wide spread, if it was a local area or from just a certain supplier then I could consider that but not this wide spread.... just my 2 cents!!


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## sierrabees

On the subject of poor fall nutrition I have the following information.

The majority of my bees were moved to high elevation for the summer. I left four hives each in two of my low elevation yards so the landowners would not think I had abandoned them.
I left a few additional hives in one more low elevation location because there appeared to be a lot of yellow star thistle in the area.

Near the end of Oct. I was prepared to pull all my high mountain colonies but postponed it because they were bringing in large amounts of pollen. I pulled them about the third week of Nov. and moved them to two yards at low elevation, one of which was the one with the yellow star thistle.

I experienced a total die out that fits the description of the "Dwindling Desease" in one of the yards where I had kept four hives throughout the summer and fall. The second low elevation location where I had also summered four hives I lost three out of four and the remaining hive that is thriving is a robber. The approximately thirty hives that were not moved out of the high elevation sites until Nov. are thriving. I have lost three out of thirty and the rest are from 1 1/2 to 3 deeps full of bees and most have never completely shut down laying. They are being fed but they are not interested in the syrup and have uncapped/uncured nector in a few frames in each hive.

I believe that the Fall nutrition is probably the key to the differance between performance in this case.

I suspect that the larger opperations where the yards number in the hundreds of hives suffer more from a poor Fall flow due to intense competition for feed and that supplemental feeding may be turned down by the bees just because there is a natural flow going on even if they can't compete for it.


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## Barry Digman

<The majority of my bees were moved to high elevation for the summer>

Doug, what's the elevation of the high yard and the low yard?


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## Keith Jarrett

Doug wrote,

I believe that the fall nutrition is probably the key

Doug, you are so on target.

Supplemental feeding wont ever be turned down IF it is made right.

Some have said, I feed excessive amounts of pollen sub in the fall, they never say this in Febuary.

Keith Jarrett


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## sqkcrk

It is my understanding that this investigation was started because someone made 400 nucs midsummer, took them to FL and when they were looked at later in the year there were only 40 left alive.

Does anyone have any more info on this?


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## Mike Gillmore

>> Supplemental feeding wont ever be turned down IF it is made right.

Sorry Keith, but I will have to disagree with you on this one. I experienced this firsthand. September - November I fed bees at 2 different yards, within a couple of miles of each other, with the same batches of syrup. At one yard they wasted no time emptying the syrup. At they other yard they refused the same syrup and within a month the colonies were dead. 

Something was in play, not sure what it was, but it was the first time that I've seen bees refuse syrup in good weather after the frost had eliminated the fall blooms.


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## Keith Jarrett

Hi there Mike,

Hey, I was refurring to pollen sub feeding not syrup feeding. I should have explained myself better there.

You are right, when there's a good flow they wont touch syrup.

Keith Jarrett


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## suttonbeeman

sqkcrk,

Only 20 survived....and he lost 1400 out of 2500 colonies. 9Good friend of mine) Mite counts were o, 1 and seldom 3 per roll. Bees appeared healthy 4 weeks before all were gone. Located 2 miles from one of my locations. Other bees in his outfit look great.....they are thinking it is something in the gut of the bee...looked awful under microscope. More when we get info from researchers.


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## suttonbeeman

here is an update.....the surviving colonies have gone backwards in numbers....all bees appera to be young bees. There are no old bees in hives. Colonies that have not been affected have much larger populations...same owner differant yards, this applies to my bees also. Bees were 5-6 frames in south fl in late Oct with 4-5 frames brood. (plits were taken from these colonies wih less than 40% success and I usuallly get at least 80% of nucs started) These colonies now have from 3-5 frames of bees. Cant find any old bees ....they seem have to died off and maybe this caused the dwindling...big question...why was their life span short??


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## Joel

{got a bunch of old bee magazines (about 100#) from od frank and I have been reviewing them with great pleasure.}

A clear sign my friend your addiction has reached the early stages of Dementia!  

I think we have about beat the what it could be to death. Maybe we should start to look at what could be eliminated. Apparrently the bees in these scenerios had access to food and pollen in some form. No dead bees in the hives or a queen with young workers and no dead bees in the hives is contrary to starvation. There were queens present and it seems unlikely to me should have had had a sudden influx of genetically flawed queens that would cause losses like this in a single year without some precursor in former years. Especially from so many different queen sources, including home growns. I would suggest weather should not have been a deciding factor as except for usage of stores a warm winter should increase survival chances. Also the losses started well before winter set in. Have we elimanted the new form of Nosema that Jim Fischer 1st. brought to our attention?

Where is Dave's map? Who's posted information?


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## tecumseh

suttonbee man adds:
Cant find any old bees ....they seem have to died off and maybe this caused the dwindling...big question...why was their life span short?? 

tecumseh replies:
perhaps??? it is not so much a case of a short life as that we often make assumptions about the demographic distribution within a hive that may not be true from time to time. so rather than thinking about this as a equal aged 'grouped' population this could possible be the outcome of having a large portion of the population that is quite old, then an extended period of no brood rearing and then a smaller group of bees which has emerged since brood rearing restarted..... the first and larger group of old bees simply died.

joel adds:
A clear sign my friend your addiction has reached the early stages of Dementia!

tecumseh tries to think of a witty reply but suddenly cannot think of why he is really here at this time of the morning... perhaps it is a good time to get another cup of coffee.

ps.... in regards to the one beekeeper from wisconsin that I earlier referenced .... he did not fit the earlier disappearing disease 'profles' in that he was not a commercial beekeeper and did not move his bees from north to south... he also observed that the effected bees would tend to fly (in large numbers) at temperatures at which they would not normally fly. so some of his de-population was the results of the bees flying at abnormally low temperature, becoming chilled and dying before returning to the hive.


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## sierrabees

Coyote,

High about 5200 ft. Low about 100 ft. Home yard 3200 ft.


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## Aspera

In France a similar phenomenon occurred and was attributed to imidacloprid (widely used for flea control). The manufacturer denied it, but I think that the problem cleared up after French farmers were forced to stop using the stuff on some crops (sunflowers?). I wonder if this is used on any flowering plants here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid_effects_on_bee_population

[ January 07, 2007, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Aspera ]


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## summersetretrievers

Map to post about beeyards and lost of bees is at top of this forum. Please add your information to it, it will be helpful to us all.


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## mobees

Imidacloprid is a component of MERIT(TM). It has widespread usage on lawns and many crops and recently been used to control winter moths.

I got this off wikopedia, "A systemic insecticide

Imidacloprid is taken up by plant roots and diffuses in the plant vascular system, where insects ingest it by sucking the plant fluids. The products Confidor and Admire are meant for application via irrigation, application to the soil, or on foliage, while Gaucho is intended for use as a seed dressing, applied to the seed before sowing. " 

A good question for the experts is would these systemic pesticide comtaminate Propolis, Pollen or the nectar in the flowers or buds and kill bees???


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## Kieck

Depending on the timing of the application, systemic pesticides could affect resins collected for propolis, pollen and perhaps nectar. Depending on timing.

Systemic insecticides don't remain strong in plants indefinitely. For a while, they will have quite an effect on insects, but the effects diminish over time as the pesticide breaks down and/or the concentration in the plants decreases.

I doubt that a pesticide is responsible for this die-off this year. The pesticides used this year were also used last year, and the year before, and so on. Even if more pesticides were used this year, some of the effects should have shown up in bee colonies before this.


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## suttonbeeman

Hust got back fro Fl...Had two colonies ....both had healthy looking brood when I looked at them on Tuesday....went back Thursday to medicate/feed after moving 50 miles from fall area to orange groves/willow and atlas I had two dead colonies out of the 96 I moved into one yard.....in two days from 2 frames healthy brood to NO bees except for two recently hatched ones and some hatching! No queen no dead bees.....one hive had not been moved in another yard had same symptom!


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## sierrabees

<two dead colonies out of the 96 I moved into one yard.....in two days from 2 frames healthy brood to NO bees except for two recently hatched ones and some hatching! No queen no dead bees.>

Is it possable that these two hives absconded leaving brood behind? With only 2 out of 96 effected and occuring right after a move that would be my first suspicion.


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## suttonbeeman

xone was moved and one wasnt.....NEVER had a hive abscond yet!


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## George Fergusson

Jerry Bromenshenk posted on BEE-L the other day about this syndrome. They're now referring to it as "Colony Collapse Disorder" (CCD). They're not calling it "Fall Dwindling Disease" (FDD) anymore because it doesn't appear to be a fall disorder per se.

Now that it has a more correct name, a thorough and illuminated understanding of the cause of the problem and how to combat it is no doubt, right around the corner. Maybe.

They're still soliciting reports from beekeepers both affected and unaffected by CCD at:

http://www.beesurvey.com/

I for one am slowly coming to the conclusion that the cause of this syndrome is NOT going to be discovered. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that I don't believe they're going to identify a single, discrete cause i.e., a virus, pest, or disease that is responsible for this, the latest round of significant colony collapse.

If it really is a syndrome, and it appears to be just that, then I expect their investigation necessarily will fail to identify a single cause. So far it appears to be affecting migratory beekeepers, but not just migratory beekeepers; it occurs mostly in the fall, but not exclusively during the fall; it is happening on the east coast, but also in the midwest, the southwest, and on the west coast; colonies die out in a few days to a few weeks, or may dwindle over a period of months; weather and climate doesn't seem to be a common element; most of the beekeepers have been treating and medicating their hives, but some have not; sources of queens vary; management methods vary; the type of bees affected vary;

About the only thing that doesn't vary much are the symptoms; those seem to be pretty much consistent, and universal; and these symptoms have been seen and described before.

This does not appear to be a "new" problem.


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## sierrabees

When I first started in practice we used to talk about "Sick Cat Sydrome". This was because there is a series of symptoms that cats show that can be ascribed to a large number of causes and the process of narrowing down exactly what the cause of the problem was was extremely frustrating. What George is saying fits that same kind of picture. Probably many different causes and possably many different treatments. Unfortunately the cost of determining the best treatment for any specific case could be prohibitive for someone dealing with only a few hives. With cats most of us decided the best solution was early detection and symptomatic treatment until something showed up to point in one direction or the other. That same principal may work for bees as well or may end up being the only choice short of a lot of expensive labratory work.


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## Joel

Here's a few afflictions affecting honey bees

Acute bee paralysis virus
Black queen cell virus
Bee virus X
Bee Virus Y
Chronic Bee Paralysis Virus
Cloudy wing virus
Deformed Wing Virus
Kashmir bee virus
Kakugo Virus
Sac Brood Virus
Slow bee Paralysis Virus
Arkansas Bee Virus
S-shaped Virus
Sattellite Virus
Irisdescent Virus/Iridescent Bee virus
Rickettsail Body 
Filamentous Virus
American Foul Brood
Chalk brood
Nosema
Post Mite Syndrome
Varroa Mites
Trachael Mites

Anyone else have more?


Take a million and 1/2 half hives, jam them all together for a while, drive them all over the country for some added stress = Fall Dwindle disease.

Many of these disease pathogens become acute when exposed to others causing hives to collapse.

I dug out last Augusts' ABJ as I remebered the article "A summary of the Varroa-Virus Disease Complex in Honey Bees" Might have been a warning shot we missed.

[ January 21, 2007, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## drobbins

I thought a CCD was a charge-coupled device

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge-coupled_device

I don't think the word police will let it be a bee syndrome too

Dave


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## bee handler

how about apian flu ??? a mutant strain of the avian flu virus ?


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## sierrabees

Just checked out my hives this weekend. Had 30 strong hives ready for almonds three weeks ago. Lucky if there are six left and the remaining live hives are so weak I expect to lose half of them. Five colonies that were so strong in two deeps that I had to add a super are now down to three frames of bees. Marked queens present in most. We have had about twenty days of extremely warm weather for this time of year in the high fiftys to low sixties with it rarely getting down to freezing at night.

When I think about this it is probable that this has been building for three years. It's just that my numbers have been so small I couldn't see the whole picture. I have bought all my bees except a few swarms from commercial pollinators. The guy I bought my bees from three years ago lost over 75 % of his bees in 05. I bought 24 colonies out of pollination in spring of 06 which made up the bulk of my stock this year. All my bees went into winter strong, with large amounts of stores. All were treated with OA and Fumidal. All but three of the lost colonies have between ten to twenty pounds of stores left and feeders full to half full of HFCS plus pollen patties. Many were raising brood and building up three weeks ago. What is most notable and consistant is that they have been not taking up feed in spite of lack of outside food and warm weather.

This looks to me like it's time to start over, forget pollination, and try to build back up using Joe Waggle's approach. When I started back into beekeeping I thought the best way would be to try to get away from chemicals and try to breed something with natural defense against varroa. I got sidetracked into the attempt to get into the almond gold rush and have lost three years work. Time to go back to my original plan.


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## BjornBee

I hear from the grapevine that some are talking about bad HFCS and if a bad batch of syrup has caused some fungus or related deseases to rear thier ugly heads. Seems the bees may of been disoriented upon leaving the hive, caused from bad nutrition, and possibly directly pointed at HFCS, as a main culprit.

Of course we all know that bees that are sick do not maintain duties associated with normal beehive functions. (Can not cluster properly, fail at pollen collection, etc.) Was it sick bees reacting to bad HFCS or HFCS reacting with sick bees?


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## BjornBee

Anybody know if HFCS production has gone through any recent manufacturing changes. Any additives or makeup change?

I think HFCS can be grouped as a larger picture of poor nutrition, bad genetics, and other fcators. Poor nutrition and sick bees are exactly that. Whether HFCS was used or not.


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## Joel

{This looks to me like it's time to start over, forget pollination, and try to build back up using Joe Waggle's approach.}

Doug, bad news! Your attitude is right on track.
If you are going to succeed keep your nose to the grindstone, get back to basics.

One other good piece of advice, what ever you do don't listen to Joe Waggle!


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## Fusion_power

"If you are going to succeed keep your nose to the grindstone, get back to basics."

There are times when this does not work. Insanity is doing the same thing twice expecting different results.

I agree that getting down to basic beekeeping is a good first step, just be aware that it may not beat whatever is taking these colonies down.

Darrel Jones


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## sierrabees

<One other good piece of advice, what ever you do don't listen to Joe Waggle!>

OK. I'll just read what he writes, study what he has written, and use my best judgement to implement what makes sense to me.

I've spent most of my life dealing with health problem in different types of creatures, but what makes beekeeping challanging is that instead of waiting days to weeks to see results I have to wait months to years. Wish I were dealing with this when I was a little younger, say 20 or 30 years younger. Anyway, it's like they say, "It's not the destination that counts, it's the journey."


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## RSUCHAN

If there are people out there that are buying non food grade HFC there are nuts. Thankfully we live only 25 miles from the corn plant. We never unload let alone even cut the seals on the tanker with out 1st having a look at the food cert. paper work. I find this problem to wide spread to be an off spec. HFC problem. I called & talked to some of our queen folks on the right coast. They never feed before they left there summer locations this fall. Yet they have lots of problems.


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## Mike Gillmore

> they have been not taking up feed 

Doug, 
That's a very interesting observation. I experienced the same thing in November at one of my sites... not in the numbers you are seeing, but high percentages. I had six booming hives at this site and started to feed 2:1 sugar syrup in September due to a poor Goldenrod flow. Within weeks 4 of the 6 colonies were reduced to a small handful of dead bees and queens. 

One thing I noticed through all of this was that all of the colonies that were refusing the syrup ended up dwindling and dying. The two that survived and all of my other colonies at a different location were taking up feed and they are still going strong. 

It is mind boggling to see how fast this happens.


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## Joel

{I agree that getting down to basic beekeeping is a good first step, just be aware that it may not beat whatever is taking these colonies down.}

The fundamental of good basic beekeeping is understanding the concept of a hive as an organism of collective eusocial individuals and working to support that symbiosis. What ever has happed here is a result of operating outside that concept. Everything we do depends on understanding that basic. 

Ruschan - Somewhere in all this fray something came out about "bad" HFCS. I am aware there are 2 seperate processes one being acid and one being enzyme. I'm aware that the acid process will kill bees and the enzyme process is the one to use and in the 55 format. I'm ignorant as to the food grade vs non. Is that related to this process or is it something different?


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## naturebee

--OK. I'll just read what he writes, study what he has written, and use my best judgement to implement what makes sense to me.--(Doug)

Good plan Doug, thats similar to what I have done! Let your best judgement be the Judge. 

When I started with small cell, I found it very difficult to take peoples word because I like to see things with my own eyes for proof before I commit. But how is one to verify information given, when small cell at the time was in its infancy and not any beekeepers on small cell to go see and verify for myself? 

What I decided to do as a way to cross check information about claims made concerning small cell was to look at the feral bees for verification. I knew the ferals would breed their way out of the varroa crisis in a balanced fashion and probably quicker than the breeders could manage and have the answers if one were to take the time to look closely. Once I began to look, things that were told I would see happening to my small cell bees, I was also noticing in the ferals I was collecting.

I still use the ferals in my area as a way to crosscheck how my ferals that I have are performing, and sometimes how high to set the bar in my selection process. My bees have to compete head on with the local ferals, which in the past few years have been recovering at a rather fast pace and seem to be an extremely competitive bunch. So adjustments in my strategy (like focusing on trapping woodland ferals, and selecting for higher brood viability) are routinely made as a direct result of evaluations and observations of ehnanced traits and higher performances found in only the most competitive bunch.

[ January 22, 2007, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Joel

{Once I began to look, things that were told I would see happening to my small cell bees, I was also noticing in the ferals I was collecting.}

Such as??

Are you noticing these dark feral bees seem to be calm in comparrison to commercially produced which normally show high competitiveness.


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## soupcan

Joel I am aware of a wet mill or a dry mill process to make HFC. Food grade means that the HFC must meet the industry standard. I know that the major pop companies all do a quick test of some type before the tanker is unloaded. And yes I have been told of loads being rejected. Now were this stuff ends up is any ones guess. This part of the business seems to be rather tight lipped.
Called Flordia last nite to check on the bee problems down there. I did find out some thing real intresting. The people I deal with have very poor bees now with lots of dead outs. There neighbors who had the same problem last year all have great bees this fall & as now as I type this. They all use the same queen cells, mated quees, & what not. So go figure this one out????


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## naturebee

--Such as??-(J)

No comment. Your on my crap list.


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## dickm

I had a weird thought today. A commonality seems to be that the bees were fed. Not all fed bees died but all that died were probably fed. Some were fed with sugar syrup they (the beeks) mixed themselves. some with HFS. A commonality is that bees don't take the feed and the hives aren't robbed out. I wonder if the pesticide companies have just released a new item which was used this year on the plants that sugar is made from. Corn/sugar beets. Or perhaps release a new transgenic variety.


Dickm


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## Jim Fischer

> I wonder if the pesticide companies have just 
> released a new item which was used this year 
> on the plants that sugar is made from...

Wow, that would be scary, but the sugars made
from Corn, Cane, and Beets could not possibly
all be subjected to the same pesticides.

Cane needs very little in the way of pesticides,
as the fields are burned every year before they
are replanted. Corn and beets likely are subjected
to every pesticide we know, and a number we don't
know about.


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## Yukon Jack

News flash!

Jeff Pettis ( Beltsville Bee Lab) says the samples of the large migratory beekeepers all were positive for M. pluton.

Tylan is not effective for M. pluton.

Many think those beekeepers were mistaking M. pluton problems for parasitic mite syndrum.
Similar looking.

Surely not the whole problem but European foulbrood causes big problems for beekeepers worldwide. Never was a big problem (until now) in the U.S. simply because of the amount of terramycin being dumped in hives until a couple years ago.


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## RSUCHAN

What is M. pluton??????


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## RSUCHAN

Is it a fungus?????


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## TwT

http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/pdf/2003/01/03.pdf?access=ok


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## Michael Palmer

Funny this post should come in today. I just got off the phone with Tony J, the Maine Apiculturist. He told me that in tests on colonies entering the state for pollination in 2006, M. pluton was common. 

He gave %s, that were something like...
European Foulbrood, M. pluton, 9%
Amerinan foulbrood, 5%
Sacbrood 3%

That's 17% of the total colonies inspected...in June! Hardly a wonder why they're dropping dead when they get to florida.


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## BjornBee

Remember in the preliminary report from Penn State, that Joe had posted. Chalk, Sac, AFB, and viruses like DFW were present in almost all samples tested from dead bee samples taken, and also the remaining colonies with small clusters.

I would like to know what the "normal" testing shows prior to this problem. I know that AFB spores are present in almost all commercial hives, DFW virus is in most bee samples tested, and so on. The fungus, bacterial agents, and viruses are present in healthy hives across the board.

But what triggered the immune system to fail? What caused the combination of deseases to go beyond threshhold, to allow this many hives to crash. Its not like many of these hives were not being treated. Its not like these hive were not being maintained by supposed professionals.

To me, to find the things they did, is no surprise.

5% AFB, and 3% SAC are not that much out of the norm for commercial hives. 9% for EFB could be. But I would suppose that EFB is easily misdiagnosed, and could be at higher levels across the board previously, and just note seen.

In any case, for the beekeeepr who lost 1591 hives out of 1600, I don't think this answers the question as why. Secondary deseases such as SAC and others, and even AFB, are seen at higher levels when hives are not healthy and functioning properly. These levels could be the secondary results from a primary sequence of events, or a primary trigger.

Theres more to the story, thats for sure.

[ January 26, 2007, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## Aspera

Its hard to definatively prove anything, but the idea is a good one and very plausible. Who says there has to be just one causative agent though? The neo-nicatinamide pesticides or other factors may still be involved.


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## Yukon Jack

Diana Cox-Foster (Penn State University) has done some very interesting research on viruses.

She has found that bees pick up virus off comb and also from flowers which have been visited by bees from hives with high levels of virus contamination.

Her research proves virus contamination is spread by bees and the reuse of comb from dead hives which showed a high level of PMS.


Pat Heitkam ( California queen breeder) says as many as 500,000 hives sit in a 50 square mile area during almonds.

Many out of state commercial beekeepers never had problems until they decided to go to California.

Diana Cox -Foster says virus contaminated boxes can be cleaned by power washing but the only way to clean comb is to replace.

However:

Beekeepers in Florida are using gamma rays on boxes to kill foulbrood spores and ( and some believe) virus contamination. Cost is around $4-6 a box depending on who you are talking to.


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## Michael Palmer

>5% AFB, and 3% SAC are not that much out of the norm for commercial hives. 9% for EFB could be.

Don't forget, these were June counts. Surely the %s went higher. I think the EFB is from taking bees to Blueberries. Very hard on the bees. I read somewhere that working blueberries fosters an acid environment within the hive, and increases the incidence of EFB. I think this was from work in New Jersey. If you've ever pollinated, you know how hard pollination is on the bees...even one pollination move into and out of apples. How about several pollinations, with blueberries and cranberries and pumpkins thrown in there. That's why they HAVE to go south. None of them would make it through a northern winter.


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## soupcan

Makes no sense at all. So why then do I have neighbors that go to almonds & have great bees. No problems none what so ever. And what about the people from Florida that have no contacts with almond bees. One supplies queens & cells to 5 othe of his neighbor beeks & this fall he has bad really bad bees & the neighbors have great bees, to many coming into this spring.


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## sierrabees

<I read somewhere that working blueberries fosters an acid environment within the hive, and increases the incidence of EFB.>


If an acid environment within the hive increases the incidence of EFB, what are we doing to our bees with formic and Oxalic acid treatments?


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## George Fergusson

>If an acid environment within the hive increases the incidence of EFB, what are we doing to our bees with formic and Oxalic acid treatments?

I don't know if this is the mechanism involved, but for what it's worth, there is a higher incidence of EFB observed in colonies that spend time in the blueberry belt here in Maine, according to Tony J. My home apiary is in fact in an old blueberry field. I had EFB in a couple of hives last year, both of which were the only surviving hives of the original 20 I had bought from a local migratory beekeeper the year before. They'd all spent the previous spring, and many springs before that, on Blueberries. There's about 600-800 acres of commercial blueberries within a mile of my place:

http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/blueberries.jpg

The reason why they call them blueberry barrens is because outside of blueberries, there's nothing else growing there.. they ruthlessly kill off anything else growing in them, leaving nothing but blueberries. In some of the larger barrens, bees will starve after the blueberries are done blooming if they're not moved out to better pastures.


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## Joel

Welcome Yukon! Two good posts, especially for #'s 1 & 2.

{Makes no sense at all. So why then do I have neighbors that go to almonds & have great bees.}

It doesn't make sense now because there are so many factors involved. Management practices, treatements, timing, weather and proximity to other environmental factors and other operations are a few that come to mind. Also there is a time factor for these cycles. Everything goes through a progression of cycles in nature so the beekeepr that is losing his hives may be in year 7 of a cyclical build up of disease, pests and such whereas the other beekeepers may only be in year 4. Better managment practices may also delay or eliminate some of these factors and stress from moving or working hives also would play a role.

I don't beleive the problem we are facing suddenly became acute in the fall of 2006, I think this has been coming for years.


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## Aspera

Word is that PSU is making a series of podcasts exploring possible causes for the epidemic. It they become publically available I'll try to see if we can set up a web link on this thread.


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## soupcan

Ok Joel what cycles are you talking about & why do you think this has been coming for years????? What has been coming for years????


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## Barry Digman

Posted on the Penn State site today

http://live.psu.edu/story/21979


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## Joel

Here it is soupcan, as best as I can do in a nutshell!
Everthing in nature runs in cycles. Animal and plant life, seasons, pest, disease, fruit production on trees. All these cycles are dependant on a wide variety of natural factors but can also be affected by the human factor. A few easy examples are:

Gypsy moths_ run about a 7 yr cycle as long as primary food sources (deciduous tree foilage, espeically oak). When the population reaches a peak between 5 and 7 yrs. a virus wipes out the captepillars and they start at square 1.

Tree Bloom- Decidous tress run a 4-6 yr cycle producing a small amount of bloom in year 1 and slowly building up food stuffs until year 4 or 5 producing a huge amount of bloom (those big basswood or locust honey crops years)and subsequently a large seed crop after which the sugar content of the root system is depleted and the tress start the cycle again.

Were it not for modern medicine humans would also run this cycle which for now we have put on hold.

Of course you could look at any species population and watch the cycle.

In beekeeping we see peak years for mites, disease and other problems which in the natural world would act as natures manner of population control. We interfere with this by the use of man made controls maintaining the un-natural overpopulation needed to maintain the many facets of monoculture that is modern farming. As we move our bees in and out of wide ranges of territories we speed up the exchange of natural population controls that may exist in one area of flora and fauna and move them quickly to other areas. We maximize the host potential for disease and pest problem merely by our basic management practices. All these cycles are at some point going to reach an apex for which we can't provide effective controls due to organisms attaining resistance and population controls again taking over. This may have been aggravated by a poor season weather and forage wise causing a collapse like we have seen starting late last year. At any rate, nature, except in sudden weather or earth event,or man made disaster, is a slow process by rule and the symptoms of what we are seeing we have been watching for years working towards a climax, which incidentally the worst of which may be yet to come!

[ January 30, 2007, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## RSUCHAN

Good point but this still does not explain as to why a group of beeks ( 4 or 5 ) all using the same stock, all operating with in a 150 miles of each other in the winter & summering up north, again with in 150 miles of each other 2 have great bees this fall & winter & 2 have junk. Yes I believe in cycles, try to convince this witch on the Weather Channel of this. But I can not view this event as a cycle. Not after talking to 12 or 15 beeks across the states & Canada. There are just to many un answered questions. Also to many very very good beekeepers that have just plain got burnt up in the last 90 to 120 days sitting with out bees & a lot of empty equiptment. Just like the fellow that shipped 3 loads to Texas. All sat at the same time in a large holding yard. the entire outfit made a real good better than average honey crop. 1 load came in to Texas in great shape, 1 load it seemed like one side of the truck was great & the other side was very uneven, the last load was all junk. I have a lot of stories to tell & I can not make sense out of much of any of it.


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## sierrabees

Right on Joel

I'd like to add that cycles can be interupted anytime a closed population is exposed to an open population. Depending on the management style and even in a single large operation a given yard may consist of either a closed population for a given desease or an open population. Migratory beekeeping by it's very nature constantly exposes closed populations to open populations and occasionally we are going to get phenomina like occured when Europeans first came in contact with the closed populations of American Indians. This is simply the process of introducing a new cycle into a population which has not had the time to adapt to it.


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## carbide

According to an article in the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review today (Feb. 2), the bee die-off in Pa. is "worse than we thought". The problem has been identified in 12 states at this point.

According to Dave Hackenburg of Lewisburg, Pa., he now says that he has lost about 70 percent of his hives.


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## florida pollinator

Here's a link to the above mentioned
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_491440.html


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## MichaelW

Is there any grasp yet on what this will mean for the little man with an order to buy 15 or so queens in the spring?

I lost half of 20 hives, mostly in the fall some over winter. I would have lost all of them if I didn't start pouring on the sugar water in late September. Most of the survivors look good, except for the fact that they are mostly now over feed  So on goes the empty supers.


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## RSUCHAN

Good luck getting queens!!! We have been cut back a bunch on our orders from 1 breeder. We have our fingers crossed with the other 2 who claim they will have no problems.
We will start back around with candy boards in the next week to have a look. Yup we are scared to death as to what we will find. Last time around we had no problems. If any thing we had to big of clusters for the 1st of January. This whole entire deal looks like a complete mess at best. I am really surprised as to how much media coverage this problem has been getting.


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## Panhandle Bee man

The media coverage is being sought to get money to continue the investigation/research into the problems


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## sqkcrk

carbide, according to Dave Hackenburg, who I talked to sunday, he has about 900 or 1,000 colonies left. So that would be about 1/3 of his original count. Or there abouts. Do any of us really know how many hives we have right now.

He also said that P.B. and K.Y. lost almost all of theirs, totaling about 5,000, more or less. He also mentioned a number of other beekeepers in FL who have lost lots and lots. And then he talked about the western beekeepers who have lost lots too.

Interestingly he told me that Poland lost 40,000 colonies last year and Spain lost 60,000, or was it the other way around. So, this isn't just a U.S. phenomenon.

There may be some Disaster Relief available, if things go right.


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## Joel

{But I can not view this event as a cycle.}

Ruschan, the cycle does not mean all bees everywhere will be affected at the same time and in the same way. The factors such as disease exposure (possibly through a percentage of virus infected queens within a shipment or from different shipments), stress due to microclimates, loading weather, pesticides, shade, cold air drainage, (the list goes on and on) are going to not only be unique for every yard but even within hives in a certain yard. 

Take a look at Bubonic Plaque, Small Pox in America, Aids, Feline Leukemia, Bird Flu.


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## Trevor Mansell

"There may be some Disaster Relief available, if things go right."
 
Yeah right .


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## Michael Palmer

>"There may be some Disaster Relief available, if things go right."

Go right? If enough of our bees die off? Taking an example from the terrible rainy weather of this past summer, and the hard time that Vermont dairy farmers are going through...will the Disaster Relief be low interest loans? What kind of relief will that be to farmers who can't pay the bills they have now?


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## MichaelW

Joel's right about ecology. There are many populations of different species crashing all the time. Seems like things are pretty bad right now for many species. They say we are about to loose all our beautiful hemlock trees to the woolly adelgid in a few years. For most species crashes there is another population explosion. I don't really want to trade in our trees for a bunch of woolly adelgids.

When/if a disease is pinpointed, scientists will still be looking at contributing factors that set the stage. Weather, management, trade practices etc. The only bright side is that survivors will be better fit to make it, however thats not much of a conciliation for people that can't afford to build back up. However, varroa remained a serious problem even after the weakest genetics died off. 

Among other things, modern trade and climate change has made global ecology just down right unstable.

I guess I better count on trying to raise some queens this spring, I had hoped to just buy some.

I wonder what all of this will do to the Africanized problem in Floridia? Do they know if Africanized colonies are effected or not?

[ February 14, 2007, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: MichaelW ]


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## Aspera

This is a cross post from the general forum. Its a podcast on CCD:

http://podcasts.psu.edu/node/265


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## carbide

sqkcrk, according to D.H., (local bee inspector) Dave told him last Saturday that he had about 800 hives left. I guess at this time he really isn't sure what he does have left and is more or less guessing. I figure no matter what the actual numbers are, it's still a dire situation for those beeks that are involved.

If I had to make a living off of the bees (instead of being a hobbyist) I would be deeply worried about the future of my income. Not knowing the actual cause of the disaster would make it even worse.

[ February 14, 2007, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: carbide ]


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## sqkcrk

Sorry Mike. Maybe I chose my words poorly. I don't know the answers to your questions.

800 or 900 or 1,000 cols. whatever. I was quoting David and it doesn't really matter which number is accurate. None are exact. And he aught to be able to turn 800 or 900 into 3,000. He has been doing this for a while. As you probably know.


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## thesurveyor

Here's more to support what is happening.

http://www.mcdowellnews.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=MMN/MGArticle/MMN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1149193220906


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## dragonfly

"Joel's right about ecology. There are many populations of different species crashing all the time."

I'm waiting for the grasshopper cycle to change because I'm tired of them eating my vegetable garden








Just kidding- sort of.


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## Bill Ruble

I was able to check my hives for the first time this winter. Out of 25 hives here at home, I lost 10. they all had honey and did not starve. Practically no mites were found in the fall.
Last week, there was an article in the paper about the bees dying here in Iowa as well as everywhere else. Looks like it got me too. I just hope to save most of what is left.
Bill


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## suttonbeeman

see post under whats the latest on ccd


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