# Formic Pro Problems?



## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

How strong was the hive? Was it possibly weak and the FormicPro caused stress and they absconded? Was it over 85F?


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## mfranzosa (Apr 17, 2012)

Strong hive, 2 deeps. It was not over 85, it was probably mid-70's or so. I'm thinking they abandoned because it was too strong and they will return in a few days once it dissipates a bit? I've used it in the past with no issues.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I have heard very little good about formic pro. I hear it is hard on queens and thee fall is the last time you want to stress a queen! Oxalic vaporization is very benign. That and apiguard used on a strong hive is also safe. Formic acid and hopguard seem to get a lot of bad press I suspect for a reason. Too bad apivar/amitraz was used and abused til many populations of mites have learned to tolerate it.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

I used Formic Pro at the end of August after seeing a few bees with DFW. I did not treat the hive since I pulled the Apivar strips when the main spring flow started at the end of April and by August was loaded with honey. If you follow the directions from the manufacturer you should not have any unexpected issues. 1. Temperature. 2. Add a super to allow for cluster expansion. 3. Expect dead bees-some one on this forum said 300 dead bees could be expected. 300 look like a lot but remember, a strong double deep 10 frame at this time of the year has 40,000 bees-daily losses should be 1200 bees a day-300 is nothing. The bees that are dying are probably varroa hosts and were already weak. You will see larvae being brought out over the first week or so-again, infected bees (larvae). Formic Pro is a shock to the system, the queen will probably stop laying for a period. Of my two hives, I think one queen shut down, one went crazy and the hive was booming within two days. Within two week, when I pulled the remaining pads, the one that slowed down had 4 frames of new brood and both hive now are fully recovered. working our very strong fall flow hard. I'm expecting another 75-100 pounds of honey out of the supers and the deeps are freakin' heavy.
Follow the directions and have some patience, do not open the hive for a minimum of 7 day (per instructions) it's hard sometimes not knowing what you can't see. Keep in mind that had you not done it, they'd all be gone by Christmas. I will be following up shortly with my fall 4 x 5 OAV treatment and a final shot after Thanksgiving.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Last fall I decimated my beautiful colonies with that junk...I will never use something so strong in my colonies again.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Me too, I don’t think I will use it again. I followed directions to the “T”. Took a while for the hives to get back to normal; supersedure cells, queens stopped laying, etc.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

I had 2 conversations with NOD, I wanted to be certain all would be okay. But it wasn't. 
Beards of bees hanging everywhere, off the fronts of the hives, sides, backs of the hives, underneath. Some colonies disappeared altogether. It killed all the grass in front of the hives. A real mess. I had 110 pristine colonies full of fat glistening white larva and all the other marvels of healthy colonies. 
On day 3 I couldn't take it anymore and took all the pads out. A week ish later I went through all the colonies, 30 were gone another 30 were super weak, all the colonies had loads of larva and brood dead in the combs and bottom boards with a thick layer of dead bees. I cleaned off all the bottom boards and fixed things up the best I could. The apiary smelled like rotting meat for 2 weeks. 
I don't think anybody needs a mitetreatment this strong, there are many good treatments out there.


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## tracyoverstuff (Mar 24, 2020)

Formic pro can only kill bees if it reaches high concentrations in the beehive. The concentration of formic acid that is lethal to mites is low


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

stick with the one pad every 10 days, use it in the middle of the summer just to nock the mites back, then treat when you pull your honey supers, never had a problem yet.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Singles vs doubles, number of brood frames, strength of colonies, 1 or 2 pads, temperature, all these things make significant differences. I think the line between a good experience and a bad one is mighty thin with formic pro. I did have a couple monster doubles that took the treatment better than the singles. But they still clustered outside the hive for days, their stress was painfully evident, still killed all the grass out front. There are way better treatments out there.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

Take this with a grain of salt as I am a first year Beek. I am also a Civil Engineer, with post graduate degrees and am used to doing research on thing I don't have a level on knowledge on and/or uncomfortable with. I am also fortunate enough to be married to a Chemical Engineer with professional registration (PE) who has 30 plus years with the EPA. All of that said and a buck may buy you a cup of coffee.
My use of Formic Pro was based upon a need-my hive, (two strong double deeps) after a clean alcohol wash two weeks prior, started to show DFW on a few bees coming out of one of my two hives. These two hives, had already produced almost a hundred pound of honey by mid August after starting as nuc's at the end of March (3-27). We had exceptional flows this year in NJ, never had a dearth and at one time I had 4 supers on one hive, 5 on the other. When I harvested, first time, I left two supers on each hive as they had not been fully capped. With that situation, I looked at my options. I had a pack of Apivar strips from early spring stored and a Varrox wand and a pound bag of OA-neither are recommended with supers in place. After a lot of reading and discussion, (both myself, daughter and my wife), questions posted here and discussions with pro Beeks, the decision was made to go with the Formic Pro. We printed off the instructions and MSD sheets from Formic Pro and followed the instructions-4 weeks later, the hives are back 100%, 100 pound (each) brood boxes and now 7 supers filling on a strong fall flow. It works.
Yes, there were some pretty shocking losses initially, yes, i think one queen (in the impacted hive) stopped laying for a week or so and yes, dead larvae came out of the hive for a week or so. None of this should be a surprise to any user that read and followed the directions. You are treating for a reason, you have sick bees and impacted bees will die regardless-what are your other options? If you don't do it or another treatment, you might as well pick up a new hobby because you hive will be dead shortly. In my case I could have pulled my supers and started an OAV regiment but all the signs at that time showed a strong flow starting. It's funny too, I personally don't care for honey (heathen!!!) and on my end, am more interested in expanding my comb stores for a hopeful expansion of my apiary next spring. The hives are now 2 deeps each with 7 supers filling between them with plenty of new brood, frames from top to bottom covered in bees, banging the aster and goldenrod at least a month from freeze. Harvest and OAV starting shortly to protect the winter bees.
Bottom line, Formic Pro worked as it should, read the instructions (including adding supers for the initial cluster expansion) and expect the obvious.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

calkal said:


> I had 2 conversations with NOD, I wanted to be certain all would be okay. But it wasn't.
> Beards of bees hanging everywhere, off the fronts of the hives, sides, backs of the hives, underneath. Some colonies disappeared altogether. It killed all the grass in front of the hives. A real mess. I had 110 pristine colonies full of fat glistening white larva and all the other marvels of healthy colonies.
> On day 3 I couldn't take it anymore and took all the pads out. A week ish later I went through all the colonies, 30 were gone another 30 were super weak, all the colonies had loads of larva and brood dead in the combs and bottom boards with a thick layer of dead bees. I cleaned off all the bottom boards and fixed things up the best I could. The apiary smelled like rotting meat for 2 weeks.
> I don't think anybody needs a mitetreatment this strong, there are many good treatments out there.


I didn’t have that experience with it, how unfortunate for you, very upsetting. I wonder why there are some many extreme experiences with this stuff especially when following label instructions.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> stick with the one pad every 10 days, use it in the middle of the summer just to nock the mites back, then treat when you pull your honey supers, never had a problem yet.


Agree Mike, I did this with the newer colonies and had no problem at all.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Cloverdale said:


> I didn’t have that experience with it, how unfortunate for you, very upsetting. I wonder why there are some many extreme experiences with this stuff especially when following label instructions.


I think it is a fine line between good experience and a bad one.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Cloverdale said:


> I didn’t have that experience with it, how unfortunate for you, very upsetting. I wonder why there are some many extreme experiences with this stuff especially when following label instructions.


I wonder also.For those who had problems,I would like to hear more info.
Formic Pro or MAQS?
1 pad or 2?
What was the expiration date on the package?
Once you opened the sealed packet,did you remove the paper wrap?
What were the temps?
Did you have a full 3/4 X 14 3/4 entrance?
Did you have an upper entrance?
Was your brood nest 2 deeps or 3 meds?
Did you add a super to provide extra space?
Were you feeding at the time?
How many frames of bees did you start with?

Have to ask this one. Does everyone realize that there are 2 pads in each sealed packet?There was an incident near me where someone did not notice this and actually double dosed their hives and drove out all the bees.


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## mamm7215 (Jun 3, 2019)

I run 8 frame hives. The 2 pad treatment for 14 days would likely wipe them out. I do 1 pad for 10 days, then the 2nd. These pads are designed for 10 frame hives, they're strong for 8 framers like me but I've never seen OAV knock the mites down like formic pro. To be fair, I HATE seeing what it does to my bees and I had to reunite 1 queen with her hive as she was in a small ball of bees under the entrance 2 days after the 2nd pad went on. I think she got caught below the pad in the lower box. FP tends to drift down. I put her in the top box and so far so good. After treatment I put top feeders on and fed each hive a gallon of syrup, 2:1. That perked them right up and I've had 3 large orientation flights since so I'm hoping the queens have started laying a bunch for winter. All in all though, Formic Pro is a tough treatment. I don't like that there does seem to be a fine line between success and/or absconding.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Jack Grimshaw said:


> I wonder also.For those who had problems,I would like to hear more info.
> Formic Pro or MAQS?
> 1 pad or 2?
> What was the expiration date on the package?
> ...


All good questions; maybe NOD coukd do a survey using these questions for a better grasp on negative experiences. And I saw on the FB NYS Beekeepers the girl who did that.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

I re-read the entire NOD websites information on Formic. Add another question-did you rip the inside paper covering. This could trigger a formic flash, that could elevate the concentration of the vapors to an unsafe level.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

LarryBud said:


> I re-read the entire NOD websites information on Formic. Add another question-did you rip the inside paper covering. This could trigger a formic flash, that could elevate the concentration of the vapors to an unsafe level.


You know, I think I did on a few...


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

LarryBud "Formic Pro worked as it should" How do you know? Do you know the expected efficacy for Formic Pro working on capped brood? Got an independent test report for reference? Finally, have you ever run across why oxalic acid or OAV is not approved for applications with supers on? Think about this question. Is the applied temperature limits specified, based on external ambients I belive, affected at all by internal temperatures? Time of day and sun exposure? Color of hive? 

BTW, I have no faith in alcohol wash based on early experiences nor the statistical presentation made in a test report supporting the method. I dig out drones and count Varroa but not this year - too hot.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Robert Holcombe said:


> LarryBud "Formic Pro worked as it should" How do you know? Do you know the expected efficacy for Formic Pro working on capped brood? Got an independent test report for reference? Finally, have you ever run across why oxalic acid or OAV is not approved for applications with supers on? Think about this question. Is the applied temperature limits specified, based on external ambients I belive, affected at all by internal temperatures? Time of day and sun exposure? Color of hive?
> 
> BTW, I have no faith in alcohol wash based on early experiences nor the statistical presentation made in a test report supporting the method. I dig out drones and count Varroa but not this year - too hot.


You have no faith in alcohol wash method and the statistics and their meanings but count varroa as your method?
Your method to determine what? do you correlate the number of mites you find on drone brood to the need to treat? Please give me 
a feel for the data you use to determine low, med, high mite infestations and how you come to that conclusion? does counting varroa on drone brood have any limitations?

I have found that varroa products that off gas, both thymol and formic pad type treatments, have increased negative consequences in high Relative humidity conditions, and dead calm still air conditions coupled with high relative humidity is a combination to be avoided even when treating well within the upper temperature recommended in the instructions.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

Robert-Not sure where you're going with this. Formic Pro worked as described by the manufacturer's NOV for me and my two hives are now thriving. Additionally, it was recommended by several members on this forum and several Master Beekeeper certified by Cornell University Master Beekeepers Program including by my bee supplier who has 4000 hives for 40 years and was a former NJ State Apiarist. My understanding why OAV/Oxalic Acid is not used during honey supering is that testing showed is has residual effect on the honey. I followed the temperature guidance per the manufacture's instructions which were well within range of those recommendations. As a Civil Engineer with a Master in Civil Engineering (Northeastern University Boston, Ma), 40 years of experience I can say I have a reasonable understanding of thermal dynamics and principles of solar heat transfers. The colors of my hives, picked out by my 16 year old daughter and partner beek, are yellow and lavender, direct sunlight morning and afternoon, midday dappled sunlight by an oak in summer. We are hobbyists just having fun with an interest in the art of beekeeping. My comments are based upon my own observations. I doubt the friendly Canadians of NOV are hell bent on world dominance or killing my bees and assume their Government certifications are correct.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

clyderoad said:


> You have no faith in alcohol wash method and the statistics and their meanings but count varroa as your method?
> Your method to determine what? do you correlate the number of mites you find on drone brood to the need to treat? Please give me
> a feel for the data you use to determine low, med, high mite infestations and how you come to that conclusion? does counting varroa on drone brood have any limitations?
> 
> I have found that varroa products that off gas, both thymol and formic pad type treatments, have increased negative consequences in high Relative humidity conditions, and dead calm still air conditions coupled with high relative humidity is a combination to be avoided even when treating well within the upper temperature recommended in the instructions.


Gray;
My understanding with the Formic Pro Pads is that the relative humidity is what activates the pads inside the hive and the action of off gassing is the carrier of the FA. The manufacturer recommends that all openings with the exception of the bottom entrance be closed. I would reason that a higher humidity is beneficial and a lack of air movement allow the full penetration of capped cells. Please feel free to correct me-I am a New Beek and am open to learning.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

LarryBud said:


> Gray;
> My understanding with the Formic Pro Pads is that the relative humidity is what activates the pads inside the hive and the action of off gassing is the carrier of the FA. The manufacturer recommends that all openings with the exception of the bottom entrance be closed. I would reason that a higher humidity is beneficial and a lack of air movement allow the full penetration of capped cells. Please feel free to correct me-I am a New Beek and am open to learning.


To preface my comments I use the stuff and it works, and works well. It is not perfect and no other varroa treatment product is either.
I can not correct you only explain what I have experienced as my university degrees in biology and invertebrate zoology has left me reliant on my chemistry friends for any advanced understandings I have sought over the years. They are the chemical experts, me? I keep the bees.
That said my experience with products like the thymol stuff that's readily available and the formic pads (all three generations of them) is that the off gasing which is designed to be a controlled event by the manufacturers, acts more like the old flash treatment when applied during a external to the hive spell of high dew point temperatures and no air movement. Negative consequences can include excessive bearding, abandoning the hive for periods of a day to a few days time, excessive brood loss, mature bee loss, queen stops laying, queen loss.
Under the above environmental conditions I have observed that the newest generation of formic pad, just as its 2 predecessors did, behave as the formic flash treatment recommended by the W.Virginia University team some years ago. This with the beekeeper treating below the high temp. threshold and with a errorless delivery of the product according to instructions. 
The new formic pro pad seems to be a more forgiving product than the other versions as well offering a more controlled delivery. Maybe the new carrier does more than extend the shelf life. It is part of and will remain in my varroa treatment arsenal as opposed to the thymol product which is not. 

Off topic but I have a keen interest in the EU approved in 2016(?) liquid based formic and oxalic acid varroa product, varromed, that has been briefly discussed on the forum.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

clyderoad said:


> The new formic pro pad seems to be a more forgiving product than the other versions as well offering a more controlled delivery. Maybe the new carrier does more than extend the shelf life. It is part of and will remain in my varroa treatment arsenal as opposed to the thymol product which is not.


Thanks for your comments Gray. Care to expand on why you like Formic Pro over thymol treatments like Apiguard?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

e-spice said:


> Thanks for your comments Gray. Care to expand on why you like Formic Pro over thymol treatments like Apiguard?


The reasons I do not use thymol treatments like Apiguard are: treatment duration, lower efficacy, temperature/dose dependency, dose/colony size dependency, lingering stench on equipment, brood removal, colony expulsion from hive, labor intensive. 
This is based on my experience having used it on some of my colonies over a few years time.
Others claim success using thymol and like, I can not.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

clyderoad or clyde is preferred rather than Gray.
Gray is a reminder of all that exists, or can exist, between the black and the white.
Just a tag line.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

clyderoad " worked as it should questions and no faith in alcohol wash" has brought out a lot of questions. I will try to collect my tech. info and histrionics. I willpost a follow up with some details like where is the varroa efficacy under the capped brood data (think Univ. of Hawaii). 

I naturally look at things with a jaundice eye after my 37 years of design and development experience. I do not accept marketing stuff easily. I suggest you look at the German Rotational System for dorne ideas; not related to formic acid, but an eye-opener. The second thought is how to handle horizontal migration, my dominant problem, versus internal hive or native Varroa growth. Randy Oliver, it seems to me, has expressed his frustration with alcohol wash but still supports it - lots of articles by him on the subject and what is apparently the failure of his "Blue Towels". 

A story: A fellow BK noted his honey tasted off a couple of years ago. I asked what he treated with - a stronger version of Formic Pro. He waited a bit and the issue subsided. A Swiss test report showed the lingering effects formic acid treatments. Oxalic acid's half life made it very difficult to detect especially because it was swamped by Formic acid in natural honey. Both acids fall back to normal values in honey after reasonable time periods, oxalic is much quicker.

EPA approval of oxalic acid is based on the Canadian approval (no commercial sponsor). Europe does not limit the use of OA or formic acid treatments but does control total acidity of their honey. The US does not test or define by specification anything for honey. I researched the Canadian approval process for OAV. The history files I could find suddenly came up with a label restriction of "supers off" without evidence or explanation. THey also had numerous European test reports. It was logical for the US EPA, via the fast track approval process provided by NAFTA, to adopt it as a restriction - less risk, no effort. Also it is known that tons and tons of oxalic acid is used by the agriculture industry. There is more that resulted in selection of OAV only. I am very strict about any pesticides or miticide chemicals being used on my little farm - veggie garden is organic. In the end oxalic acid is well supported in Europe, formic less so, much less so as it was difficult to control. So I went the easy way, OAV, and have no reason to change. More to come about my alcohol wash experience with a little of Seeley's Darwinian Beekeeping involved. I only checked two of nine brood chambers this year based on my prior experience.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

My experience with formic, first as MAQS probably ~10 years ago and now with FP, is that so much of the reaction depends on the health of the hive when they're treated. Health means the mite counts when you treat. Remember, a monster hive, left untreated, probably has monster mite counts. By the time you physically see DWV bees, it's pretty bad. If you start seeing many workers with phoretic mites on them with your eyes during an inspection, it's really bad, far worse than you should have let it get. Doing an alcohol wash at that point will likely give you counts in the teens if not higher. If you've waited until then to treat and use formic, your bees are likely to have all sort of problems and may abscond. The bees are already extremely stressed and unhealthy at that point and the formic just pushes it over the edge. I've had this happen. If I'm on top of the mites and treat when my counts are more like 5-6 on 300 bees and I follow all the other directions, the bees handle it. They hate it, but they handle it, and it really knocks the mites back. The queens may stop laying, you might have a sort of "brood reset", but the bees that are raised after that are beautiful, healthy bees. That said, where I'm at in the country, I'd never treat with formic this late in the year.


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## Azureus (Sep 7, 2019)

My first year of beekeeping I applied two strips of formic strips to a colony that already had visible signs of disease (deformed wings and a lot of "crawlers") in late August during the correct weather conditions. The hive immediately depopulated with the formic acid application and the hive collapse a week later. The hive was clearly already severely sick. This year, in late June, my bees were again showing deformed wings and a lot of crawlers. This time I applied 1 strip per hive and then 1 strip 10 days later. A lot of bees died during the first application, as the MQS said they would. But the hives recovered within a day or two with no visible signs of disease. As a late June application MQS were excellent, I think because the hive's population was still building up. I'm definitely using MQS as a late summer application as the bees go into the fall very strong. I'm applying Oxalic acid vapor in October (when the winter bees are raised) and February (when the spring bees start to build up in L.A.). Good luck.


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## willbe (Sep 3, 2013)

This is my second year of using Formic Pro as my fall treatment after poor results with oxalic acid. I use two pads 14 days. I did lose 2 queens last year after treating the rest wintered well. So far the 50 I treated this look year look good. I use all medium boxes and added a super to each when I treated. A few with minor bearding the first day temperature in the low to mid 60s. Until I see something better I'll keep using it.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I have used MAQS until this year, when I got Formic Pro instead from my supplier. Had to wait longer than I like to put them on because it was too hot. All hives have nice brood coming along on the goldenrod bloom, as per usual. I typically get a surge in brood production a week after treatment.

Some notes: 

There are TWO pads in each package. Formic pro is much easier to handle than MAQS as they are firmer and the paper doesn't peel off so badly. 

The concentration of the formic acid in the hive is dependent upon having normal ventilation -- screened bottom boards must have the board all the way in, no entrance reducer, temp below 85 all day, and some upper ventilation. Extra boxes are nice, probably not totally necessary. 

The formic acid evaporates from the gel (which is why you should not remove the paper, it wicks the acid from the gel to allow it to evaporate better). Time if treatment is 5-7 days, after than there isn't any formic acid left to evaporate. My bees leave the MAQS in place all winter, but have chewed up and removed the Formic pro strips. Nice, I don't have to dig in there and pull them out. I often find them in the spring, all covered with propolis. 

If you put the contents of two packages of either Formic Pro or MAQS in a hive, you are adding double the amount you should, and I'd expect trouble. If it's not breezy, or gets cold, you can have trouble. If it gets up to 90, or your hives are somewhere that gets much warmer than the surrounding area (against the south side of a building or something similar) they can get too hot and you will have trouble.

I've used formic acid for almost ten years now, and had very good results. Last year I had no losses at all, it was a mild winter and even my weak swarm that I picked up off the ground did well. I tried oxalic acid on glycerine soaked towels the year before and had 50% loss, not effective here as the bees propolyze the paper towels rather than removing them.

I don't do mite counts -- no point before treatment as all hives have mites here, and I know the formic acid works from experience since I don't have significant losses over winter. This is a hobby for me at the moment, and I only have 13 hives this year. I'm not out much if I lose one or two since most of them are splits or captured swarms from my own hives these days. To the best of my knowledge I have never lost a queen while doing mite treatments -- I have trouble in August with queen loss, not September. 

I prefer to treat in late August at the end of the summer dearth as there isn't much brood in the hive. Best time to eliminate mites, so I get nice strong brood for winter bees in September and October. No issues with brood damage either as there usually isn't much here at that time.

Just my experience.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

I'm starting to think that most people having problems with Formic Pro pads are those that haven't read, or haven't FULLY read the instructions. I am ne to this but I honestly believe Formic Pro saved my hives after a late summer mite bomb. The instructions are available on NOD's website. Stop, read and learn-it's like 5 minutes to read everything-have a cup of coffee and read it twice.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Agreed,LarryBud!

We had a saying when I was the tree business that explained 95% of the "accidents".
Operator error!


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Operator error most certainly but there are probably many other explanations and possibilities such as mess ups at the factory that produces Formic Pro. And how does formic acid interact with polystyrene? Increased humidity possibly? NOD does not recommend upper ventilation, only full open bottom entrance (no reducer) and screens closed.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

LarryBud "no faith in alcohol wash method and the statistics " - Long answer but I do believe formic acid via strips is very tough on phoretic mites and bees but I have also not seen a capped brood efficacy test report. Efficacy is likely high for phoretic mites as it remains active longer with the slower release method. This helps pick-out emerging Varroa too. This is what R. Oliver was trying to achieve with Blue Towels. “Lack of faith in the wsh method” - this may be because I gave up on three years ago after 3 years of applying the technique.

Alcohol Wash explanation: I started off by following directions in the the heat of summer for the first couple of years and helping other newbies . I lost nearly all my packages but one and saved one package by re-queening for two years. ( Packages had DWV upon arrival) I also killed a few queens doing alcohol washes. Every time a brood chamber is inspected you run a risk of killing / rolling a queen - sampling in the brood area raises that risk. In one case the alcohol wash showed low to possible need to treat. We decided to treat with OAV based on what I had learned/read ( it was too hot hot for formic). Well the dead drop numbers on the sticky board were not “low” and exceeded a few thousand after a couple of OAV cycles. What also occurred was the sudden formation of supercedure / emergency cells. We had killed the queen but lots of eggs were available. it was a big hive. The hive survived and thrived in time. 

I concluded from numerous application results and reading the evaluation report ( Univ. of Michigan?) about alcohol washes that the alcohol wash at best a lagging indicator and results varied with the season and timing of build-up. In support of this decision I add Dr. Seeley, a favorite of mine, recommendation in his Darwinian Beekeeping points - avoid intruding into the brood chamber. With a little experience, I noticed I could "sense" problems by watching the entrance - observational behavior (and especially with the incorporation of temperature / RH sensors a few years ago). These inputs now directs me to investigate, or not, the brood chamber . I have a standard brood chamber, all year, for all 9 hives now. 

Further investigations pointed out that varroa prefer drones due to the extended emergence cycle ( proven by scientific testing). Learning from the German Rotational system I decided to add Varroa-drone capture methods to my total plan. Couple this with the data coming out of the Univ. of Sussex, England strengthened my OAV confidence. Especially important was the winter OAV treatment identified by a Sussex University article and test report. I added that to the yearly plan. Also of great importance was the ability to have winter survivor hives allowing a complete yearly cycle with treatments via a plan. 

For me the greatest impact on my inspection decisions was knowing we always or nearly always have Varroa infestations. I can simply verify the status with an OAV treatment and count the dead drop on the sticky board. I visually count the dead drop on day 5. I have never seen OAV impact the hive for more than an hour - or the grass. Nor is it sensitive to external environment requirements except for being above 38F. That value is based on an Eastern European report ( I think) which showed efficacy dropping as a function of external temperature. No hive design descriptions or conclusion was provided as to how OAV was impacted. I assume it was a tight cluster, inside effect. I now insulated year round and intend to test this limitation as my internal hive temperatures are far different from a thin walled hive design with low R values.

I discarded the alcohol wash and started the Varro-capped drone cell method in my 4th summer as a control method. After picking through a few thousand capped drones in various stages of development I only found 8 Varroa around mid August (I had winter OAV’ed). That season was followed by Fall OAV treatments which produced hundreds of Varroa per hive, even a few thousand in some cases ( actual Dead Drop Varroa post OAV). Two years of this resulted in the conclusion that my yearly treatment plan coupled with raising my own bees and buying mated queens was successful and sustainable. 

One exception, handling or treating the Fall Varroa horizontal migration / robbing infestation issue is a big one. It goes on for quite awhile ( I plotted the dead drop data for the 9 hive apiary last year - stunning plot of Fall migration). Thus the need for a long term treatment like Apivar or repeated OAV treatments. I will not use Apivar here so it’s OAV for me. 

This year I have only intruded, in a significant fashion, into two hives - both Spring queen issues. I have not conducted Vorroa testing this summer but I have started OAV treatments after removing supers - similar timing and visual results as last year but started a little later. I should have sample tested using OAV and isolated my supers but simply forgot to do it. 

I have not lost a hive to disease / Varroa in two winters. Lost one hive to drone laying queen and workers - I gave up on the colony after it killed two new queens. I have not seen signs of disease like the obvious DWV or dead brood. 

My learned guide for actual Varroa Dead Drop Count (Vddc): 1) Test OAV with VDDC more than 50 VDDC I treat again, every 4-6 days, 2) keep treating in Fall until hive VDDC goes below 10 ( usually until good freezing weather), 3) Treat in January, two times - 0 to 3.

My goal is to simplify as I get older but be sustainable. I would love to see a good, long cycle treatment to cover the Fall cycle using oxalic acid or a formic acid combination with supporting data. I hope this helps.


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## amk (Dec 16, 2017)

I’ve got 70 colonies about and have been using it twice a year for a couple years now. Most commercial pollinators I’ve talked to use formic either maqs or pro. The statement I’ve heard mostly bad about it is extremely false. Maybe true for this forum because it’s a lot of hobby people. You say it’s a strong double deep colony but your opinion of a strong double deep colony could be different than mine. Also you have to have the proper ventilation.


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## jimbo3 (Jun 7, 2015)

As a hobby keeper, I treated my two hives with formic on April 29th of this year. On May 7th I had spotty brood and eggs in one hive, and nothing in the second hive. I treated with formic on the first hive once again but didn't the second.

The first hive thrived, but the second seemed to have lost its queen after formic. Thankfully the resources from the first helped the second hive thrive.

I have enough formic left over, but now I'm afraid to use it. I just got set up with OA vape, so it seems like it's chemo vs. sunscreen. I'm likely going to use up the formic I have in at least one hive I guess.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I have come to the same conclusion as Robert Holcomb but for slightly different reasons. I too was always wary of killing a queen while doing an alcohol wash and thankfully never did. It was due to pure luck, not my mastery of the process. The alcohol wash only tests the level of phoretic mites is a small sample. By doing a sample OA vaporization, I can test the varroa level in the entire hive at one time. Not only do I get reasonable test results based on the drop rate, I kill a whole bunch of varroa at the same time with minimal effect to the hive. It is a win-win scenario and faster than doing an alcohol wash on 20 hives. Our varroa pattern is pretty consistent year after year. Come the end of July to mid-August, the varroa population really begins to rise. Due to the seasonal drought, by the time August comes, there is very little drone brood, if any. Testing drone brood is often not a possibility. I can do a quick OAV test every couple of weeks and as soon as a rise in mite levels appears, I can continue treating on a 4-5 day rotation until the numbers come way down. I am not fond of any formic treatments. The fumes are hard on me (the mask helps but knowing it is there really bothers my well being), it is hard on the entire colony and I have heard of way too many queen issues to mess with it anymore. A single treatment may bring the number of mites down very quickly but when re-infestation happens, you cannot do treatment after treatment without killing the hive and then OAV or Apivar is the only answer.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Robert Holcombe said:


> LarryBud "no faith in alcohol wash method and the statistics " - .....................


Now more questions than answers but thank you for your explanations.
Perhaps you are not comfortable working the brood chamber to do a alcohol wash?
I don't do them, takes too much time and.....

I have a drone frame in every hive that gets pulled (except the drones I want for mating), before disposal I rake it and look for varroa on the pupae. I get a feel for the infestation of mites this way. No hard numbers guide me and....

I use OAV as a anti varroa tool also but not regularly as it takes too much time. It has it's place if timed correctly with the season and cycle of the mite. What does 50 dead varroa after a OAV test tell you about the level of infestation in the hive? do you correlate the 50 mite drop to the size of the colony, amount of capped brood present? A 50 mite drop would mean very different things in a colony with 1 1/2 frames of capped brood compared to a colony with 4 1/2 frames of capped brood, would it not?
I don't test with OAV as I have too many hives in too many apiaries with vastly different environmental conditions to consider and..... 

I too make it a habit to observe the entrances when working a apiary being a proponent of the observational skills of H. Storch as written in the translation of "Am Flugloch" , What do you observe at the entrance that allows you to decide whether to inspect the brood chamber of your hives? 

German rotation system? the drone brood removal, swarm control, splits, supering, combines for fall system is practiced to some degree by many (most) commercial stationary temperate zone beekeepers.

........... are all these methods of counting mites worth the time and effort in determining whether to treat or not when we are 1. certain the colonies have mites and 2. have amble information regarding the relationship of the honey bee and varroa mite life cycles and the behaviors of both insects, and just need to apply that current knowledge to our choice of acaricides and treatment schedule.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

clyderroad 

" Perhaps you are not comfortable working the brood chamber to do a alcohol wash?" I do not have problem working a brood chamber other than the risk issues for a queen and an immeasurable impact on brood (temperature swings, external air exposure., accident risk and likely more). It is simpler to avoid intrusion if possible. The girls know how to take care of themselves. I am debating with myself the subject of drones, drone frames and drone- Varroa capture cells for next year. 

"What does 50 dead varroa after a OAV test tell you about the level of infestation in the hive? " I set that as a threshold but it depends on time of year. Typically late summer it means wait a bit on big hives, for nuc - do it again. For a weak hive - repeat to check again. Come late fall and VDDC are falling it is still a high number. With past experience I no longer count until I see low quantity on the back slope of the curve - I take a closer look. In January I use a magnifying glass to count as I am looking for small numbers and errors have huge affects ( alcohl wash sensitivity to error?). Your frame counts, etc. imply a sensitivity issue I am far more granular in knowing we got mites in all colonies by late summer. Three earlier years I could nto find mites in the Spring early summer with my OAV regimen, even late into summer and then "BINGO"! 

"What do you observe at the entrance that allows you" - Depends on time of year and I am still learning and to to really read Storch now. Spring, using temperature, RH and entrance behavior, I look for early pollen coming in, orientation flights and foraging. I am able to detect drone laying queen issues or poor queen performance. Realize I have heavily insulated hives, all year now, with a stable temperature profile. A simple thermometer pocked through the foam tells a story too ( I have to manually plot the past years data). Summer becomes obvious with the number of bees and activity all day plus demand for supers. THis Fall all colonies looked good including nucs at the entrance. One nuc looked a bit off compared to the other. Checked the syrup feeder ( in extreme drought for a few months now) and found it going unused - queen issue almost no capped brood left, no larva, hard for me to see eggs. I run a standard brood chamber of a medium+deep + medium on top; QE and supers follow. I find a quick inspection of the top medium also tells a story; some brood in certer - low honey all around,etc. So I guess I should say I look for various signs starting with the entrance. 

"are all these methods of counting mites worth the time and effort" now that I have invested the time learning I would say no with the caveat I need to verify via repeatability and performance. That was my point by stating no faith in alcohol washes. 

I do not understand you problem with time to perform OAV. I find it fairly quick, 5-6 minutes plus movement time, averaging 12 minutes per hive. While OAV'ing I do other task like weighting, feeding syrup, removing frames from nearby units or cutting vines. There is lots to do. If I wanted to decrease interval to about 8 minutes I would buy a second Vorrox wand ( I locate my hives in pairs). Being retired, time is less of an issue - simplicity wins every time now.

One issue I have with myself. I am focused on hive design while trying to learn beekeeping. Unfortunately repeat test or changes in bee keeping take yearly cycles. I hav emade to many changes in six years to be able to really verify. I think I am becoming stable and will expand data records via more monitored hives - nothing fancy. I want to add CO2 to the temperature and RH recordings plus multiple points. The sleeve insulation design makes things a lot easier, year round. I now leave the insulation on all year and will improve the coverage for next year.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

re OAV: I have 300 or so colonies of bees in 2 states over 20 some apiaries. OAV is not my treatment of choice under the circumstances even though I am equipped with vaporizers and the power to run them. It is not a choice at all for a summer treatment option for it efficacy limitations with brood in the hive.
It is useful, if, if the weather holds long enough and I can get into the yards, for a early December 1x treatment (or a mid February one in the coastal yards.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

clyderoad "if the weather holds long enough and I can get into the yards"

You are south west of my coastal location ( Narragansett Bay / Pt Judith) on Long Island. Why is the weather an issue? What do you use, Apivar? I would guess I am colder than you on average with more inland effects. Of course I am just a backyard apiary, ~ 10 colonies, retired thus time is less important.

Being heavily insulated the hives have very uniform temperature and relative humidity values inside, at the top of the three hives I monitor. The air cavity between the foam sleeve and the wood brood boxes stablizes, 40 to 50F from top to bottom ( 24 inch sleeves). This tells me the values inside the hive are well above 40F (my past minimum treatment value for outside temperatures). But it would seem, to me, that what is critical is the interior temperatures for diffusion of the vaporized oxalic acid. I intend to try a few experiments this winter and watch. This past year I converted to and kept my sleeve insulation design on full time, from Jan onward. Spring and summer results impressed me. I am not sure why I got a high honey yield with the extreme drought we are suffering. Likely because of the early Spring build-up and good flow. I am improving the approach to handle "with supers on and insulated". I hope to add more remote sensors to confirm simple dial thermometer temperature observations I have made. BTW, it seems they winter over consumption pattern changed. They consume from the outside frame inward, consumption was not up but relative to hive size and early brooding rates in the Spring

I find, by observation so far, that the if I am effective in hammering phoretic mites in the Fall using OAV my January OAV treatment, once or twice, takes care of me all summer. I may be just lucky and will get bit but it seems to have worked that way for three years.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> You are south west of my coastal location ( Narragansett Bay / Pt Judith) on Long Island. Why is the weather an issue? What do you use, Apivar? I would guess I am colder than you on average with more inland effects.


I have bees Northwest of you as well in central MA. Stationary beekeeper, by and large with limited pollination (I'm to expensive say most), so bees pretty much stay put. Coastal Island bees do fine with 60ish lbs, inland MA bees need 100lbs. None get wrapped. All get homasote inner covers, inland bees also get a top entrance where coastal bees do not, only a bottom one. 
Very different environmental conditions between the two locations.

Don't care much for amitraz but do use it occasionally. I use different forms of the acids mostly along with management. I am well versed in the system you mentioned previously and manage in a very similar manner, if I'm correct in understanding your meaning of the German rotational system- the drone brood removal, swarm control, splits, supering, combines for fall system.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> You are south west of my coastal location ( Narragansett Bay / Pt Judith) on Long Island. Why is the weather an issue? What do you use, Apivar? I would guess I am colder than you on average with more inland effects.


I have bees Northwest of you as well in central MA. Stationary beekeeper, by and large with limited pollination (I'm to expensive say most), so bees pretty much stay put. Coastal Island bees do fine with 60ish lbs, inland MA bees need 100lbs. None get wrapped. All get homasote inner covers, inland bees also get a top entrance where coastal bees do not, only a bottom one. 
Very different environmental conditions between the two locations.

Don't care much for amitraz but do use it occasionally. I use different forms of the acids mostly along with management. I am well versed in the system you mentioned previously and manage in a very similar manner, if I'm correct in understanding your meaning of the German rotational system- the drone brood removal, swarm control, splits, supering, combines for fall system.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> Your frame counts, etc. imply a sensitivity issue I am far more granular in knowing we got mites in all colonies by late summer.


I assume it relates to my comment
"What does 50 dead varroa after a OAV test tell you about the level of infestation in the hive? do you correlate the 50 mite drop to the size of the colony, amount of capped brood present? A 50 mite drop would mean very different things in a colony with 1 1/2 frames of capped brood compared to a colony with 4 1/2 frames of capped brood, would it not?"

But I have no clue what you response means, please explain.



> "are all these methods of counting mites worth the time and effort" now that I have invested the time learning I would say no with the caveat I need to verify via repeatability and performance. That was my point by stating no faith in alcohol washes.


I think you miss my point. Here is what I said in it's entirety: 

"are all these methods of counting mites worth the time and effort in determining whether to treat or not when we are 1. certain the colonies have mites and 2. have amble information regarding the relationship of the honey bee and varroa mite life cycles and the behaviors of both insects, and just need to apply that current knowledge to our choice of acaricides and treatment schedule."


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

clyderoad said:


> That said my experience with products like the thymol stuff that's readily available and the formic pads (all three generations of them) is that the off gasing which is designed to be a controlled event by the manufacturers, acts more like the old flash treatment when applied during a external to the hive spell of high dew point temperatures and no air movement.
> The new formic pro pad seems to be a more forgiving product than the other versions as well offering a more controlled delivery. Maybe the new carrier does more than extend the shelf life. It is part of and will remain in my varroa treatment arsenal as opposed to the thymol product which is not.
> .


I agree that, in my warm, humid climate, formic pro or maqs acts pretty much as a flash treatment. Come back a week later, the pads are all dried out, and one might even find shb crawling on them with no ill effects.

For that reason I have switched to the one pad twice treatment. With that I have had satisfactory results and no apparent die off as might occur with 2 pads OR an apiguard treatment.

I really haven't observed any difference between the 2 formic treatments, pro or maqs, fwiw. And no, don't tear the paper wrapper off when installing the individual formic pads.


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## Michele G (Aug 23, 2021)

LarryBud said:


> Take this with a grain of salt as I am a first year Beek. I am also a Civil Engineer, with post graduate degrees and am used to doing research on thing I don't have a level on knowledge on and/or uncomfortable with. I am also fortunate enough to be married to a Chemical Engineer with professional registration (PE) who has 30 plus years with the EPA. All of that said and a buck may buy you a cup of coffee.
> My use of Formic Pro was based upon a need-my hive, (two strong double deeps) after a clean alcohol wash two weeks prior, started to show DFW on a few bees coming out of one of my two hives. These two hives, had already produced almost a hundred pound of honey by mid August after starting as nuc's at the end of March (3-27). We had exceptional flows this year in NJ, never had a dearth and at one time I had 4 supers on one hive, 5 on the other. When I harvested, first time, I left two supers on each hive as they had not been fully capped. With that situation, I looked at my options. I had a pack of Apivar strips from early spring stored and a Varrox wand and a pound bag of OA-neither are recommended with supers in place. After a lot of reading and discussion, (both myself, daughter and my wife), questions posted here and discussions with pro Beeks, the decision was made to go with the Formic Pro. We printed off the instructions and MSD sheets from Formic Pro and followed the instructions-4 weeks later, the hives are back 100%, 100 pound (each) brood boxes and now 7 supers filling on a strong fall flow. It works.
> Yes, there were some pretty shocking losses initially, yes, i think one queen (in the impacted hive) stopped laying for a week or so and yes, dead larvae came out of the hive for a week or so. None of this should be a surprise to any user that read and followed the directions. You are treating for a reason, you have sick bees and impacted bees will die regardless-what are your other options? If you don't do it or another treatment, you might as well pick up a new hobby because you hive will be dead shortly. In my case I could have pulled my supers and started an OAV regiment but all the signs at that time showed a strong flow starting. It's funny too, I personally don't care for honey (heathen!!!) and on my end, am more interested in expanding my comb stores for a hopeful expansion of my apiary next spring. The hives are now 2 deeps each with 7 supers filling between them with plenty of new brood, frames from top to bottom covered in bees, banging the aster and goldenrod at least a month from freeze. Harvest and OAV starting shortly to protect the winter bees.
> Bottom line, Formic Pro worked as it should, read the instructions (including adding supers for the initial cluster expansion) and expect the obvious.


I put in a formic pro strip yesterday but did not know about adding a super for clustering. Can I open the hive today and put a super on with empty frames to give them room? I have 1 strip between two deeps. I found mites in drone brood, which prompted me to treat.


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## TAC (12 mo ago)

calkal said:


> I had 2 conversations with NOD, I wanted to be certain all would be okay. But it wasn't.
> Beards of bees hanging everywhere, off the fronts of the hives, sides, backs of the hives, underneath. Some colonies disappeared altogether. It killed all the grass in front of the hives. A real mess. I had 110 pristine colonies full of fat glistening white larva and all the other marvels of healthy colonies.
> On day 3 I couldn't take it anymore and took all the pads out. A week ish later I went through all the colonies, 30 were gone another 30 were super weak, all the colonies had loads of larva and brood dead in the combs and bottom boards with a thick layer of dead bees. I cleaned off all the bottom boards and fixed things up the best I could. The apiary smelled like rotting meat for 2 weeks.
> I don't think anybody needs a mitetreatment this strong, there are many good treatments out there.


'many good treatments out there.'....... like?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

TAC said:


> 'many good treatments out there.'....... like?


they all work under the correct condition and you reading the label. Formic Pro works but during the summer we all go with one pad, 10 days later the second pad and watch the temp, and make sure they aren't expired. We were going to treat this week but it's on the upper end of the temp scale and humid, next monday will be cooler for the first 3 day's so a bunch of us will be treating then. Apiguard works again watch the temps, but it can be warmer than when using the Pro. Oxalic isn't temp dependent but the recommendation is when no or little brood, most people use more than the recommended amount and more often for the OAV, the V being vapor. Apivar still works if your bees haven't show resistance. skip apistan not sure why they still sell it.


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