# Catapulted into beekeeping



## RonS (Dec 28, 2004)

Jim,

Check you Beekeeping for Dummies at your library. Good info. Does your box have frames? If not, you will have a mess. The removable frames allow you to manipulate the hive and later, to harvest some honey.

Ron S.


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## RonS (Dec 28, 2004)

Jim,

Check out Beekeeping for Dummies at your library. Good info. Does your box have frames? If not, you will have a mess. The removable frames allow you to manipulate the hive and later, to harvest some honey.

Ron S.


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## Jim Strawn (May 4, 2006)

Actually no, the box has no frames. I built it from 1x10 cedar with a removable roof. My beekeeper friend tells me he's coming up to see me in a month or two and he'll bring a box to move the hive into. I have no idea how that happens except that the hive attaches to the roof, so I figured I'd make it as easy as I could. (I was in a hurry building it because I didn't want the swarm to find a better spot and leave!) I'm anxious to get them moved to a hive, though!

That brings up a good question though, if we move them to a hive in two months, will that be enough time for them to move in and make surplus honey this season, or will I have to wait for next year?


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## RonS (Dec 28, 2004)

Jim,

Here is the simple answer, depends. First, when your friend does come, the move will entirely disrupt the hive. Consider that these girls were just forceably moved to a house without furniture. That is ok as bees are Amish in nature and use natural products and tools to make their own. In a month, you will have considerable comb and brood. When you take that top off, all the furniture will come with it. Because you do not have established comb frames, the comb will likely not be where it is advantageous to you. Bottom line, you could have a big honey mess. Next, the bees will be really angry with you. The swarm has nothing to defend. When you next open the top, you may experience a little piece of H***. Be prepared with the appropriate veil and suit, if your friend will loan one to you. Unless you are prepared to tie that brood and honey comb into frames for the new hive, you will lose it all. That is devastating. Worker bees live only about 6 weeks during the summer, so many of your swarm will die before the move. That means that they must depend on the brood comb for new bees. You will have no choice but to tie in that comb.

Another very big thing is that unless you are in the beginning of a good nectar flow (plenty of nectar crops or flowers), you must feed to help them along until established. Since you do not have frames, this is a problem. You may consider an entrance feeder because you cannot take the top off until the next move.

Jim, if you have a few bucks to spare, you should consider buying a new or used hive body with frames, and soon before too much comb is built.

You live in the cold country. Two months from now will be early July. It is not only almost impossible for the bees to store enough nectar for themselves, much less excess for you. In the best of conditions, few package bees are successful enough to have surplus honey at the end of one summer season. Your concern should be whether these bees can support themselves without feeding. Likely not as in July, they have to start all over. Not a good prospect, Jim.

Ron S.


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## Jim Strawn (May 4, 2006)

So you're saying 
* transfer to a hive sooner rather than later
* feed often
* forget about honey this year

I can do that.

Basically all I'm concerned about at this point is that the hive establishes themsleves. Not really too concerned about the honey, especially since they're already providing a valuable service: they're sitting right next to my seven fruit trees and behind the hive is a couple of acres of solid blackberries. So I'm hoping they'll be well fed and that the fruit will be bigger!

I realize the box thing was probably not the ideal solution, but I was in a bit of a bind, since I really wanted to keep the swarm. At this point though, and after learning so much, I'm pretty cognizant of the fact that lifting the lid is going to be a sobering experience. The last thing I want is a mess of mad bees!

Thanks for the great advice! I'll look into getting them transfered to a hive as soon as possible. Is there a process for that, or do I just put the hive box next door and put up a "help wanted" sign?

Here's a little slide show of my bees:
http://24.22.25.28:8080/myfirstbees/default.htm
(I'll be taking this site down in a few days, so if you can't see it after 5/15/06 that's why.)


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## Jim Strawn (May 4, 2006)

Also, when you say "tie in the comb", do you mean litterally breaking it off the current box and tie it into the new hive box with baling twine or something?


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## Neubee (Mar 23, 2005)

Here is a design for a frame that makes it easier to tie in the comb:

http://www.beesource.com/plans/swarmfrm.pdf

Neubee


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## GDH (Jun 15, 2005)

Jim> 

So you managed to collect a swam without getting stung so often as to frighten you away from beekeeping. Good for you. So now remember how thick your wallet feels, it is about to get thinner.

I will make some suggestions based upon my own (limited) experience, much is based upon what I have learned through this board, others may suggest other routes. Also, price quotes are from Mann Lake (mannlake.com) since I have one of their catalogs handy. There are many suppliers, some are cheaper, some are more expensive.

So, you are holding the bee swam in a box. First thing you need is to get a hive with removable frames, ASAP. A good starting point may be:

Assembled complete hive body kit --- wooden frames (pg 4), $72.95

This is an OK starting point, but many people like to use screen bottom boards (SBB) since they provide better ventilation and allow Varroa mites to fall out of the hive. Since you wont need the bottom board which comes with the kit:

Assembled 9 5/8 hive body kit  wood frames (pg 5), $41.50
Assembled telescoping hive cover with Inner cover (pg 15), $21.50
Assembled Varroa Trap with drawer (pg 16), $18.95

Net here would be $80.95

I set my hives on a hive base which has a landing board on it, but in the future I will build a landing board to attach to the Varroa trap. My hive bases sit on cider block to keep them up off the ground. I also place a cider block on the top to keep critters (aka raccoons) from getting in the hive.

Hive stand (pg 16), $8.95

Paint can be purchased cheaper from a local hardware supply, dont forget the primer and a gallon is good for 6-7 full hives, including the honey supers. Speaking of honey supers, in time you will need at least 3 medium supers, 6 5/8 inch deep. (In the second year, the brood will expand and start filling at least one of these medium supers.) The reason for using the medium supers instead of the deep (9 5/8 inch) supers for honey is the weight, which is about 90# for a deep when full, vs. about 60# for the medium.

Assembled 6 5/8 super kit (pg 5), $37.95

OK, now for personal protection equipment (PPE), I personally prefer a jacket over the full body suit (too hot, hard to get off), wearing jeans and boots to protect legs and feet. I purchased the pollinator jacket, but Mann lake sells a cheaper one and I cant tell the difference from the catalog except for the fancy patch on the pocket.

Small-XL pollinator jacket (pg 64), $105.95
Small-XXXL economy hooded jacket (pg 65), $45.95

I bought leather welding gloves from a local hardware store, they fit better than the ones which came with my original deluxe kit. I, personally, dont use a smoker, so I cant make a suggestion there. For other useful tools to work the hive:

10 inch hive tool (pg 25), $4.50
Frame grip (pg 26), $14.95
Stainless steel frame perch (pg 26), $18.95

Down the line, when you have honey to extract and assuming you dont like the wax bits sticking to you teeth, want to sell some honey or give it away:

Double Sieve (pg 71), $41.95
Nylon Strainer cloth (pg 71), $6.95/ yd (60 inches wide)
5 gallon white pail with 1 ½ honey gate (pg 59), $16.95

Hmmm, so is the wallet feeling a little lighter? Capturing that swam saved you about $58.00 (the cost of a 3# pkg with queen). Gotta love Mann Lake and all their $0.95.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

You can use string or rubber bands to hold the comb in a conventional frame, no special frame is needed. In a few days the bees will attach the comb to the frame and remove the string or rubber bands themselves. It's best to tie the comb at the same orientation that it was built, in other words, there is a top and bottom to comb. It really is just that easy. 

Get a good LARGE smoker. You can get started with a veil, hive tool, and smoker if the bees are reasonably gentle. Add other stuff as you need it. A long sleeve light colored shirt or painters coveralls can act as a beesuit in a pinch with rubber bands at the cuffs.

[ May 04, 2006, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Ross ]


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## Jim Strawn (May 4, 2006)

So what are you saying, GDH? Don't quit my day job?  

Great info! And thanks, Ross, for your tips, too!

Nuther question to throw at you: There seem to be lots of links for building your own hives and frames. I have a (somewhat) full wood shop, so I'm thinking I may go that route. Is there any special tools or material needed for building these things, or can a guy just get a bunch of 1x4 and go to work? (Realizing, of course, that I may need a hive sooner than I can build one...)


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## Jim Strawn (May 4, 2006)

Okay, one more question: Once I have the hive box and am ready to transfer comb from the old box to the new, -how- do I do it? Take off the lid and place it on the new box? Cut off the comb and rubber band it to the lid of the new box? Rubber band it to the floor?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Jim

I'm a rookie and building all my own stuff and having great fun doing it
you can slap a hive together much faster that you can mail order one
the problem is the frames
IMO they're to much trouble to build
if I were you I'd order 20 frames and some foundation for them and build your hive while you wait for the stuff to arrive
the rest is all 1 X material from the home building store
plans here

http://www.beesource.com/plans/index.htm

have fun
you're hooked








the rest of us are too

Dave


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

Dave

I disagree on the frames, but then I designed a couple of really handy custom cutting jigs that allow me to use 2x8 lumber. I make the top bars and end bars in one big chunk and then just slice them off of it like cheese. Course you need a table saw and a good rip blade and dado blade as well. With my cutting system, I can cut and assemble 40 - 50 frames in less than 2 hrs.


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## Jim Strawn (May 4, 2006)

Dave, those pics on your site are great! Very educational! Remember, I'm coming in to this with zero bee knowledge. I thought a "frame" was a generic term for the supers and hive bodies! Looking at your pics told the story. (At least part of it anyway!) Now that I looked at your pics, Gene's post makes more sense to me.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Gene,

no argument here
I'll probably end up making my own frames
I'm talking about a "quick start"
someone posted some pics of what you're talking about and I agree it doesn't look to hard
Jim just needs to make it happen "NOW"

Dave


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## Neubee (Mar 23, 2005)

You want to rubber band it to frames so you can remove them and inspect the hive and harvest honey.

There are three beekeeping supply stores here in Oregon that I know of:

http://www.ruhlbeesupply.com/online.html

http://www.glorybeefoods.com/gbf/Shop_List.cfm?PC=3&PSC=&ProductCat_Name=Beekeeping%20Supplies&Token=207.225.79.20:{ts_2006-04-15_10:41:21}-534788

http://www.shastinamillwork.com/about.asp

Neubee


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

Allow me to jump in and complicate things some  

I started last spring, and decided to go with deep brood boxes. After a season, I've re-assessed and am now converting all my supers to mediums. There's something to be said for having all your equipment the same size. Since I'm still in transition and have some drawn deep frames, I built a couple of 3" shims (also a couple in convenient "Nuc" size) to convert a medium into a deep when I need to.

I'd recommend you consider going with all medium equipment - easier on the back, all equipment the same size, etc. There've been lots of discussions on it in the past - a search should easily turn them up.

I agree with Dave on buying the frames. If you have free or very cheap wood, a decent wood shop, a rainy day (haha), and time, building the supers will probably make sense for you.

On the subject of foundation - bees know how to make comb, and they're good at it. They can do it in the dark  I personally don't use foundation - I use a wax starter strip and let the bees build their own comb from scratch. Again, a search here will give you some reasons why you might want to do this - one reason is to get your bees on natural size comb so they're more tolerant of mites. Note that it's not quite so simple as not using foundation - do a search for "Regression" and you'll see what I mean.

I like Ross' suggestion on equipment. Most days, even for an involved manipulation, I wear jeans, a light tan long sleeve shirt, and a veil. Today was nice so I wore a T-shirt, even though I had to move a hive to a new stand. No gloves, though I have them for when the bees get agitated. Gloves make you clumsy, and you'll kill more bees and get them agitated more quickly. It's a little strange working without gloves at first, but you get used to it and learn to move very slowly and methodically. Watch an experienced beek for some tips.

That said, I DO have a full suit in case it's needed, as well as a jacket with integrated veil, neither of which I've had (yet) to use.

Invest in a large, high quality smoker if you think you'll stick with the hobby. Very worthwhile investment. Larger stays lit better and longer - buy a small cheap one too so you really appreciate your good large one  

Hive tools: There are two types - the standard type, and the "Maxant" type. I always carry both! I guess if I had to choose one, I'd go with the Maxant type, as the hook on the end does come in handy to get the first frame out when you get into a hive that's well propolyzed. I'd still rather have both though  

That's about enough I think - I probably have you thoroughly confused by now. 

Good luck! Your place sounds great, and starting with a swarm from your own property is a neat way to get started. Let us know if you have more questions









-Pete


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

Dave

>Jim just needs to make it happen "NOW"

Good point, for this situation, I was commenting on what seemed to be a pretty general statement.


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## Jim Strawn (May 4, 2006)

Wow! You guys are fantastic! I started this thread at noon today and five hours later it's 19 posts long. In that time I've about doubled my beekeeping knowledge, and am still hungry for more.

In sum:
* I'll be working on getting a real hive around those bees right away
* I'm ordering frames and building supers
* I'm reallocating the $50 BK budget item to the new BK (Burger King to BeeKeeping - I'm sure it's healthier)
* I'm sticking with medium equipment for now (even though my back is moderately strong... for now)
* I'm buying equipment... smoker and veil to start, until the honey money really starts pouring in, then I'll buy some gloves...  
* I'm staying tuned to this forum to glean all I can! Hopefully someday I'll be able to be as helpful as you all have been to me!


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## David Stewart (Jan 22, 2005)

Jim,
Enjoy....They're very forgiving of our screwups and a true joy to watch. I'm going to somewhat dissagree with the majority concerning this year's honey however.....If you aren't feeding sugar syrup (which they will put up and cap making it impossible to tell which is real honey and which is syrup) and checking on the girls and notice a frame containing capped honey, it's perfectly acceptable to "accidentally" scrape and damage a beautiful frame of capped honey...Be a shame to let it all drip and run everywhere. Just dip your finger in and enjoy. The girls will even clean up after you.

David


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've put them in boxes with no frames when I was too poor to have that much equipent on hand. It's the right thing to do under the circumstances. But I'd cut them out as soon as you can.


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## Jim Strawn (May 4, 2006)

New developments on the bee box: I'm going to day to Reedsport (2.5 hour drive) to pick up a hive and possibly some equipment from my friend. Once I get it back here, I'll actually use the current box as a brood chamber, but I'll take the floor out and set it on top of the new hive. After the bees have had a chance to move down into the hive, Charles tells me there's a way to force the queen to move down there, too. Once the queen is down there, I take the lid off the old box, remove any comb that they've built (may have to tie it in down below, but not sure), then I just insert frames into the old box (may have to use a router around the inside for the frames to rest on a lip). I then put the lid back on. When it's time, and if they're strong enough, I can put an excluder on the top and put a super on top of that. Thus, the current box gets incorporated into the hive body.

Other than the router possibly making the bees mad enough to eat me, does anyone see any big snafus with this plan? (Like I said before, the box is 20"x16", so it should be the right size to do this with...)


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

Routing the edges of a box full of bees!? Could be really tricky. I would suggest screwing a 3/8" x 3/4" shim on the sides and a 3/8" x 3/8" shim on the ends, then the frames should fit in nicely.


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## Jim Strawn (May 4, 2006)

Actually, I was just looking at the plans for a 10-frame hive and it says the inside dimensions are 18-3/8" x 14-3/4". The inside dimensions of my box are 20x16. So it may be as easy as screwing on some runners. However, I do like your idea of screwing on the shim, Gene. I just don't think they make earmuffs small enough for the girls not to get irritated with the noise.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I would go ahead and cut out the existing comb and tie it into frames. They won't move down to undrawn frames or foundation willingly. It really won't bee that bad. Make a little open sided stand to place the lid on. A couple of saw horses close together will work. Let the comb hang down and work on one comb at a time, cutting it loose, banding it to a frame and dropping the frame in the new hive body. When that is done, shake all the loose bees into the hive body and put a lid on it. Then knock the old box apart and fix it right. Excess space in a beehive is not good. They will glue it up like you won't believe. Do it before they build up and they will be easier to work with. Once they get a good population, they get a bit more defensive. I would probably only deal with larger pieces of comb and that which has brood. Scrap the rest. It will be VERY soft and tender at this point.

Thin goat skin gloves at HD are cheap and work well. You really only need the heavy stuff for cutouts and really mean bees.

[ May 05, 2006, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Ross ]


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

Jim:

Since you can go with runners, get a couple of mini bar clamps and clamp the runners to the inside and then screw through the outside w/long enough screws to pull them up tight, then remove the clamps. This would disturb the bees much less than trying to run the screws in from inside the box.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

>>* I'm reallocating the $50 BK budget item to the new BK (Burger King to BeeKeeping - I'm sure it's healthier)

Wow, you spend $50/week on burger king? That is at least what you will need to get started on beekeeping....


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## Jim Strawn (May 4, 2006)

Slight exaggeration... Actually, the old BK budget got reallocated long ago when I got married... With such a great cook, who needs all them grasshoppers? I mean greaseburgers? (Sometimes I get them confused.)

To date I have not put dollar one into my beloved new hobby. Not that I don't intend to eventually, and probably sooner rather than later, but for now I'm devising alternatives for required equipment. For instance, I'll use my GI gortex for a suit, because it's made for a first-line anti-chemical suit (30 minutes to find a real suit in case of attack), I think I can fabricate a smoker from a Campbell's soup can and a gas can nozzle, and I don't see why a Taco Bell spork wouldn't work for a hive knife...


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

your soupcan and spork won't be as useful next year when you expand to 5 - 10 hive









(you may not know about the 5 - 10 hives that you will be getting yet, but just wait...)


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