# Typical brokerage fee?



## westernbeekeeper

What is the typical fee when working with a broker (at the almonds)? Percentage? Please input. thanks.


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## Keith Jarrett

anywhere from $15-$150.


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## gmcharlie

A lot of it depends on what your wanting, just placement at time of almonds, a yard 3 months before?? etc... Was talking to a guy last night that gets 50% but you truck your bees to him in Nov, and he feeds them up and places and then sends them back in March all full...


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## KevinR

gmcharlie said:


> A lot of it depends on what your wanting, just placement at time of almonds, a yard 3 months before?? etc... Was talking to a guy last night that gets 50% but you truck your bees to him in Nov, and he feeds them up and places and then sends them back in March all full...


In the Broker Fee is 15-150 per hive I'm assuming.. What is the pollination fee per hive?


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## westernbeekeeper

The pollination fee is $150-200. Keith's being discouraging....


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## gmcharlie

I was told, by a broker it will be in the 180 range, but its a bit early to tell. Hes saying this cold winter may run it higher.


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## KevinR

I'm sure their are some people that charge that amount... Once I have enough hives, I'll look at this a little closer. But for now, it's more of a curiosity..

Are there any broker companies that arrange partial loads? Or is more or less expected that you need to send out ~480ish hives? Again no where close to justify the effort, but might give me something to work toward.


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## westernbeekeeper

A broker I know deals with as little as 10 hives.


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## KevinR

westernbeekeeper said:


> A broker I know deals with as little as 10 hives.


That's interesting to know... But I doubt that sending 10-60 hives from TN would be worth the effort, but it might be worth dragging out a flatbed trailers work. *shrugs* Ah well, something to shoot for....

They usually want them in the almonds by the first week of Feb?


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## westernbeekeeper

A friend of mine tacked 20 of his on a partial semi load last year. He paid his fair percentage of transportation, etc. and it worked out well for him. You want them ready for the long haul by the first week of November.


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## KevinR

That would probably be doable here... If I sent them out early enough. If I waited to send them out in Jan/Feb.. They'd probably be a small sad little cluster. LOL! 

Most of my bees still haven't decided that it's winter time yet...


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## gmcharlie

For just placement your looking in the 15-20 range. but no way to have hives in TN ready for almonds. keep in mind they get graded. sooooo you would need to send them out in Jan to a holding yard, feed them up... and that requires manpower or a broker who will/can handle that.


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## Charlie B

It must have been desperate last year because our club got a call from a broker wanting hives. I told him unless you wanted a bunch of Honda Prius sedans showing up with one hive each with those fancy copper garden tops, we couldn't help him.


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## KevinR

Charlie B said:


> It must have been desperate last year because our club got a call from a broker wanting hives. I told him unless you wanted a bunch of Honda Prius sedans showing up with one hive each with those fancy copper garden tops, we couldn't help him.


Best post ever.... *grins* 

I think about jumping in the race as I get more and more hives... I just have to do the math and figure out when it's cost effective to do it.


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## Shouse

Broker Fees = $7.00 to $10.00
Unloading and Loading Truck at holding yard = $400.00 - $600.00 per truck (each time)
Wintering Yard rent = $0.25 -$0.50 per hive, per month
Labor for Feeding and Medicating per hive = $0.50
Labor for Re-Queening $2.50
Cost to distribute and pick-up hives in/out of orchard varies $2.00 to $4.00 per hive.
Freight cost to haul hives from your place to California is $2.75 to $3.00 per mile.
Cost to know California Almond Pollination Services, Inc. PRICLESS!


However prices vary among Broker to Broker and number of hives you are delivering it is all about "Economies of Scales"


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## KevinR

Minimal number of hives?


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## RAK

The broker I deal with doesn't charge a fee.


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## westernbeekeeper

Wow, thanks for the great info, Steve. Very helpful! I'll be sure to hit you up sometime when I finally head to the almonds.


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## Shouse

RAK said:


> The broker I deal with doesn't charge a fee.


That is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FUNNY!


PLEASE give me his name I have 20,000 hives I want him to broker for me!


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## Shouse

westernbeekeeper said:


> Wow, thanks for the great info, Steve. Very helpful! I'll be sure to hit you up sometime when I finally head to the almonds.


Ben if I were you I would use RAK's broker, there is no charge. However, I bet the hive rental fees are very low!


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## linn

Well, I sent my fancy copper top out for pollination. I sent two hives to an apple orchard for about a month -just a hobby.


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## RAK

Shouse said:


> That is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FUNNY!
> 
> 
> PLEASE give me his name I have 20,000 hives I want him to broker for me!


$160/hive no fee. 

At least he had enough hives for all his growers last season...unlike some.


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## Shouse

RAK said:


> $160/hive no fee.
> 
> At least he had enough hives for all his growers last season...unlike some.


RAK, I 'm not sure that you understand that he is charging the grower more than he is paying you. Therefore the broker fee is buried in the hive rental fee.
and I assume he didn't have very many growers. Last year $160.00 was a fair hive rental rate to the beekeepers.

We met ALL of our contracts last year PLUS we had requests for 1,000's of more hives from growers who waited too late to sign contracts or found out that their beekeeper was short on hives. As I'm sure you heard these growers were willing to pay well above the $160.00 rate. 

If your broker is not charging you a fee you should see rates above $180.00 this year.


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## Honey-4-All

Shouse said:


> If your broker is not charging you a fee you should see rates above $180.00 this year.


Time to put my magnifying glasses back on my exploded head? Is that a typo, has the market jumped that much, or have you gone mad? 

Should I check some old posts. If i recall correctly a little less than a month ago I thought you were implying that 165 was like "way out of line?' When I tried to clarify Barry so deftly deleted my questions as I posted them on your "AD." Which I was informed was forbidden. ??????????

If thats really the case or there must be a lot of crashing bees, a lot of the out of staters are sitting on tons of $2.50 honey or more people than I realize say "to heck with Cali and all the darn rules." 

Would you be willing to clarify your $180 + comment as a broker?


PS. Lot of folks have not signed yet........ especially those I know with good bees...... Is this trending towards $190???


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## Honey-4-All

westernbeekeeper said:


> The pollination fee is $150-200. Keith's being discouraging....


Hey Ben,

As I explained on the phone I don't think Keith is being discouraging............. The true answer varies.. The gamut varies depending on who does what and who pays what expenses?


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## Shouse

Honey-4-All said:


> Should I check some old posts. If i recall correctly a little less than a month ago I thought you were implying that 165 was like "way out of line?' When I tried to clarify Barry so deftly deleted my questions as I posted them on your "AD." Which I was informed was forbidden. ??????????
> 
> Would you be willing to clarify your $180 + comment as a broker?
> 
> PS. Lot of folks have not signed yet........ especially those I know with good bees...... Is this trending towards $190???


We are quoting net to the beekeeper:

9 frames or greater = $175.00
8 frames = $170.00
7 frames = $160.00

You are correct a month ago I could not get a Grower to sign a contract for $160.00 a hive. (one exception). Two months before that I couldn't fine a grower willing to go above $145.00.
That my friend has changed, and that may not be the end of it. Paramount is advertising $185.00 max. I have several contracts proposals from growers, I could sign tomorrow at $155.00. So if you know any beekeepers out there that want $145.00 a hive I can set them up now, in my opinion they will regret it later unless they are local, with little or no travel costs. 
Times are a changing.


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## Shouse

Honey-4-All said:


> has the market jumped that much, or have you gone mad?
> 
> ...... Is this trending towards $190???


Phil, that was you that responded to the thread POLLINATION PRICES a few days ago. Wasn’t it?

I believe the recent comments in that thread, by those who were in attendance at the CSBA annual meeting last week are indicative of the market movement.

Only time will tell.

Yes I have gone mad, several times. But that's what the drugs are for


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## G B

Hello shouse! we went in last year at 140, then got a raise of 2.50 a little later then got another 5.00 as bees got shorter.so ended up at 147.50 . I talked to the broker in the fall and agreed to a price.as we have done this year. If I were your customer would you have been able to go back to the grower and get more money or would the price have stayed the same? A deal is a deal so I would have honored our hand shake and delivered the bees at the agreed upon price. In your operation if I were a regular would you say hang on a while or wait and let's see what developes. I am not interested in getting the last dollar and I am more concerned about getting paid than getting big money and chasing some joker. If I had signed with you a few weeks ago would I get anything more if the mkt went up a lot or am I stuck. I was very pleased and surprised we got a raise last year. We've also agreed to 165 for an 8 frame ave this year, same as always. Hope you don't mind the question. Thanks George B


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## Honey-4-All

Shouse said:


> Phil, that was you that responded to the thread POLLINATION PRICES a few days ago. Wasn’t it?
> 
> I believe the recent comments in that thread, by those who were in attendance at the CSBA annual meeting last week are indicative of the market movement.
> 
> Only time will tell.
> 
> Yes I have gone mad, several times. But that's what the drugs are for


Steve, 

Thanks for the responses........... and glad you and the growers are coming around. I'm not just saying this because I "knew" I was correct back then. Maybe the growers wouldn't sign at that time. As the middle man you need to make both sides happy.

My point back then was the same as now. Less and less beeks can afford to do it at $140...... It ain't happening. If that's all the market would pay then the supply would be way less than the one of previous years. I'd personally say "screw it" if that low of an offering persisted. 

With all the time,effort, and expense incurred now days the true cost of getting them up to snuff for almonds is beyond the stratosphere. Not to be nostalgic but I myself would prefer the $18 I got the first time I hauled a load to Modesto when placed side by side with the 180 I can get 2 miles away from my door in two months. With all the extra meds, feed, sub,syrup runs now days the miles and time to get them to Modesto is a pittance compared to the $ put on on a "right next door" move for 2013 almonds.

If this keeps up $200 might not be unheard of SOON !!!!!!!!!!


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## Shouse

GB

I enjoy your questions, they were respectfully ask, I do not mine them. 

Last year the contracts we locked in, as the ones we have locked in this year will stand at the price at the time of handshake. Everyone's aware that the chances that the prices will increase are far greater than them going down. I agree a deal is a deal. To the credit to my beekeeping clients, they could of pulled out and left me hanging high and dry, and headed south to the $200.00 hives but they did not and they too honored our handshake. And to answer your question directly, No, I would not have been able to ask for a price increase once we all agreed, nor did I even consider it. 

Your $165.00 per hive is a fair price. Think of the guys coming from Florida or the ones that incur the cost to over winter hive in California. My local beekeepers will net more at $155.00 a hive than the Florida guys will at $185.00 after their freight costs and wintering expense. If it's anyone that should be charging higher rates ($200.00) it's the guys from back east or the Midwest.

We too are not interested in the last dollar, we say that on our web site. "We want to assure Growers of a reliable source of bees at a reasonable cost while at the same time helping Beekeepers maintain a reasonable profit margin." "Our goal is to build long-term relationships, and we do not treat negotiations as a "Zero-Sum Game" in which one party benefits at the expense of the other, but rather as an opportunity for both parties to win." 

As a broker, the grower will ask me to find a certain number of hives, at a certain strength, at a certain price... Beekeepers ask me to rent a certain number of their hives at a certain price in a certain area. I try the best I can to match the two parties together. There are several variables in determining who you will rent your hives to, it's not just about the rental price. As an example, how well will your hives will be taken care of, will you be paid on time, security, ease of access to the hives and placement, is the grading fair, when the hives are released... It is very common for our beekeepers to accept less money because of the location. 
It is a judgment call, they say a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.
After hearing what was discussed at the convention and after speaking with over a dozen beekeepers both in state and out of state I believe the prices will continue to rise. Now they could raise to a point that more beekeepers come in to California from out of State but that will take thousand of hives in my opinion to drop or slow the price. 

Hope that answers your questions.

Regards,

Steve


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## Daniel Y

KevinR said:


> I'm sure their are some people that charge that amount... Once I have enough hives, I'll look at this a little closer. But for now, it's more of a curiosity..
> 
> Are there any broker companies that arrange partial loads? Or is more or less expected that you need to send out ~480ish hives? Again no where close to justify the effort, but might give me something to work toward.


I contacted a broker about 8 hives I have that are less than two hours from almonds. They replied asking for more person information. so far they have not responded to me providing that but it is early. I would rather they wait. Prices rise as the bloom gets closer and growers realize they are not getting enough hives. Fees so far are #20 if the hive is placed. plus any other services they provide such as requeening. Placing and feeding are included in the fee. I would have to get my hives to them. They will assist in that if they can. I live two block from I-80. I figure I can catch someone passing through that can add two pallets to their load.


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## Keith Jarrett

Honey-4-All said:


> Hey Ben,
> As I explained on the phone I don't think Keith is being discouraging.............


Thanks Phil, Ben, what I meant was some broker charge a flat fee, then some brokers "ding" you if the bees arent so, then some brokers have been knowed not to pay you at all. This has happen to a few on this very site, so that's why I said the charge might be $15-150 depending on what the rascle "broker" wants to pay you.


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## Keith Jarrett

Shouse said:


> Labor for Re-Queening $2.50


Do I understand this correct...... your going to requeen hives in the middle of winter for $2.50 when the hives are wintering?


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## Daniel Y

oops, I did not read the last few posts before posting the above. Steve is the person I have been in contact with. as a newcomer with not even a drop in eh bucket I will say my concerns are this.

Preparation. How should I best get my hives ready to go and what will that actually leave me with. My hives at this time are way to big for what the growers are paying for. Should I even bother trying to maximize the number of hives. once I do I then have to make pallets. I need time to get this stuff done. A big pain for 8 hives. I really cannot expect Steve to take the time to nurse 8 hives to California.

Transportation. now 8 hives may not seem like much but right now my only immediate option is to put them two at a time in the back of my family station wagon. then set them up on pallets at Steve's place.

Location. I am potentially no more than 2 hours away from almond groves. with transportation costs I will take a lower rental fee for closer proximity. With only 8 hives absorbing the cost to move them the cost per hive is building fast for every mile. I might get lucky and find someone passing through that will pick them up. Otherwise I will have to rent a truck.

Service. I am far more concerned that my hives will be cared for than I am the money I will make.

Finally payment. Now this one for me is still a pretty tight requirement. with only 8 hives it has to be economical for me to get them there. accept the risk. absorb any losses etc. But I can also have these hives anywhere they are needed in a matter of days. I am inclined to leverage that and wait until the last minute when growers are scrambling to get those last few hives in there groves. I am thinking min $180 per hive and possible $200 or a bit more. That is a risky hand to play. but if I lose I do not loose much. If I win I make some money. I am pretty much forced to wring every dime out of these as I can just to make it profitable.

Some sideline numbers I have seen recently. 2 million hives in the US. 1.5 million of them will be sent to almonds. I don't think the growers will get all the hives they want even if there is not a hard winter.


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## westernbeekeeper

Honey-4-All said:


> Hey Ben,
> 
> As I explained on the phone I don't think Keith is being discouraging............. The true answer varies.. The gamut varies depending on who does what and who pays what expenses?





Keith Jarrett said:


> Thanks Phil, Ben, what I meant was some broker charge a flat fee, then some brokers "ding" you if the bees arent so, then some brokers have been knowed not to pay you at all. This has happen to a few on this very site, so that's why I said the charge might be $15-150 depending on what the rascle "broker" wants to pay you.


Yeah, sorry guys, I was being goofy again. I do appreciate the honesty. Was being hard on ya, Keith.  Thanks for the clarification.


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## Barry

Keith Jarrett said:


> that's why I said the charge might be $15-150 depending on what the rascle "broker" wants to pay you.


Just so it's clear, not all brokers are "rascals." I think the point Keith is trying to make is, know the person "broker" you are dealing with is honest with a good reputation.


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## Keith Jarrett

westernbeekeeper said:


> Was being hard on ya, Keith.  Thanks for the clarification.


No worries mate, you need to be hard, you need to know the diffences between facts & fluff. There are good brokers out here & not so good ones. Best of luck to you Ben.


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## RAK

Steve, few questions... does the grower pay you and then you pay the beekeeper? Some brokers sign you up but payment is made from grower to beekeeper while some brokers get paid and then pay the beekeeper...of course after deducting fees, such as requeening in winter.


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## Honey-4-All

Barry said:


> Just so it's clear, not all brokers are "rascals." I think the point Keith is trying to make is, know the person "broker" you are dealing with is honest with a good reputation.


Perfectly said. As Keith and I have a seen and heard just of about everything in this regards since the demise of king Cotton and the rise of prince ALMOND over the last 20+ years there are people all over the board "acting" as brokers. 

The best broker IMO is one who does his job and is just a transparent conduit between the beek and grower. One who is a friend of both and an enemy of none and certainly never makes the process about him or herself while always keeping the big picture in mind. 

In 30 years I have only used a broker once ( besides bee buddies who were short and never charged a cut) A long time back when bees were under $50. 

I think it was a set of about 24. Of the 24 most were par exellance. When the check came after I had picked up the bees I noticed I had been dinged 1 hive that had fallen short. One hive out of 24 had gone down hill after delivery and most were 4 or five frames over grade and I got dinged. Ouch! Needless to say I have never spoken with the broker again and his business is about caput. 

In dealing with a beekeeper and a grower a great broker will do what he needs to stay in business today while making his every decision based only on the goal that his current relationships are based on a 5 - 10 year horizon with all the parties involved. Those are the guys that get and keep the respect. For those who do I hope they make a billion dollars doing it!!:thumbsup:


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## RAK

It just seems that more brokers showing up to get a chunk of a beekeepers payckeck.

A beekeeper preps his bees all year to make those 3 digits in order to keep on living while some brokers spend a few months and make a solid mil. 
Beekeepers should be their own brokers with direct relationships with growers. The only reason for a broker is that they winter your bees and prep them. However no broker will ever take as good care of you hives as you would.


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## Shouse

Keith Jarrett said:


> Do I understand this correct...... your going to requeen hives in the middle of winter for $2.50 when the hives are wintering?


Nope! No one said anything about re-queening in the middle of winter.

I'm surprised that someone with your "claim" of knowledge and expertise would think that was a good idea.


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## Shouse

RAK said:


> Steve, few questions... does the grower pay you and then you pay the beekeeper? Some brokers sign you up but payment is made from grower to beekeeper while some brokers get paid and then pay the beekeeper...of course after deducting fees, such as requeening in winter.


The grower pays us then we pay the beekeepers. We handle all the administration duties such as insurance coverage, IRS filing requirements, Franchise Tax withholding, hive grading and much more.

Take a look at our website it may better explain your questions regarding our products and services. We are not a one size if all broker, and nothing is set in stone, we try to customize a program for both the Grower and the Beekeepers. We value our relationships equally between Growers and Beekeepers.

We do not re-queen in winter as Keith suggest. We may re-queen a hive in mid to late January if conditions warrant it or splits are made just prior to almonds (whether the split is used in the orchard or not). It is common to receive hives from the Florida or Texas where the queen was killed in transit.


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## Keith Jarrett

Shouse said:


> We do not re-queen in winter as Keith suggest. We may re-queen a hive in mid to late January if conditions warrant it or splits are made just prior to almonds (whether the split is used in the orchard or not). It is common to receive hives from the Florida or Texas where the queen was killed in transit.


HHHmmmm, lol.... silly me for thinking January & the first half of Febuary were winter months. Got to love these post.


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## KevinR

Shouse said:


> We may re-queen a hive in mid to late January if conditions warrant it or splits are made just prior to almonds (whether the split is used in the orchard or not).


What do you do with the splits. Assuming this is a hive that you are wintering for someone else? How many hives do you have coming in that need to be split?


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## Shouse

KevinR,

The splits are eventually returned to the owner when the almond pollination season is over.
We are not re-queening hives when “hives are wintering” as Keith would suggest.
We begin the process of “waking” the bees up for Almond pollination by feeding pollen patties and syrup. We start the process the first week in January, we may have to manage the weaker hives and replace a few queens, and we may go thought 100-200 queens in this process. I would not say that we have any hives “coming in” that need to be split, that is done by the beekeeper before they are shipped to us, the queen may die in the process, and we attempt to replace her.

Coming out of what we call “wintering the hives” (November December) the hives become very strong by the first week of February, in some cases strong enough to split, but only if you use quality pollen patties. If you are still "wintering hives" in January and February you will miss the Almond Pollination season.

Take a look at the pictures on our web site home page and you will see hives ready to split (prior to almond pollination) after only 2-3 pounds of pollen patty fed beginning the first of the year. Then take a look at Keith’s YouTube video of a guy that put 6-8 pounds of an apparently poor quality sub and his hives look as if they will barely make grade. Talking about LOL!!

It is all about Quality! You get what you pay for, so use the best!


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## KevinR

I'm just learning, it's all interesting to me.. I would have assumed the bees would be sent back busting at the seams, but if your telling me you send back the original hives plus x number of splits in separate hardware. Where does the split hardware come from, box, frames, tops/bottoms. Is this an additional fee?

One of these days, I'll have enough to send somewhere... Hoping the ones I send come back. *grins*


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## marshmasterpat

KevinR - Keep asking the questions, you are thinking of the good ones way before me. 

One of these if things go well maybe I will consider that yearly western migration as well.


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## Shouse

KevinR said:


> I'm just learning, it's all interesting to me.. I would have assumed the bees would be sent back busting at the seams, but if your telling me you send back the original hives plus x number of splits in separate hardware. Where does the split hardware come from, box, frames, tops/bottoms. Is this an additional fee?
> 
> One of these days, I'll have enough to send somewhere... Hoping the ones I send come back. *grins*


It's all their hive equipment. We have the shaker box and all that equipment if we do it on a large scale.


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## KevinR

I guess I'm confused. I assumed that someone would send out 480 hives or however many sit on a trailer(s). Are you saying they send 480 + however many extra boxes they think you need for potential splits?

Probably cheaper to just shake them into packages and send them back in bulk bee boxes.. lol


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## Shouse

Please email or call me to much details and variables to try and discuss here.

99% of the beekeepers get their hives back before they swarm. There are exceptions to EVERYTHING! example some don't want the hives back in March in North Dakota with snow on the ground. and we keep them until June.


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## Keith Jarrett

Shouse said:


> Please email or call me to much details and variables to try and discuss here.
> 
> 99% of the beekeepers get their hives back before they swarm. There are exceptions to EVERYTHING! example some don't want the hives back in March in North Dakota with snow on the ground. and we keep them until June.


We are all listening, no need to take it e-mail.
Kevin R is asking how you come up with the boxes that you split BEFORE the almonds as you stated you do in post #45.

P.S. were getting really close to the fluff.


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## Shouse

Keith Jarrett said:


> We are all listening, no need to take it e-mail.
> Kevin R is asking how you come up with the boxes that you split BEFORE the almonds as you stated you do in post #45.
> 
> P.S. were getting really close to the fluff.


Very simple Keith it's the beekeepers equipment.
And unlike you we use excellent pollen patties from Mann Lake. Take a look at our pictures, you too can have great looking hives if you quit using substandard feed


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## Barry

Do we really need to have a sub war?


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## Keith Jarrett

Shouse said:


> Take a look at out picture you too can have great looking hives if you quit using substandard feed


I'll keep using my substanded feed.
This springs pic in the almond pre bloom http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/tn_zps051a5cfa.jpg

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/100_2832-1.jpg

Kevin R how we do it here is suck down overwinter triples, we are base in Calif.


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## Keith Jarrett

Barry said:


> Do we really need to have a sub war?


No Barry, we don't, Steve keeps side stepping Kevins questions


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## sqkcrk

KevinR said:


> I'm just learning, it's all interesting to me.. I would have assumed the bees would be sent back busting at the seams, but if your telling me you send back the original hives plus x number of splits in separate hardware. Where does the split hardware come from, box, frames, tops/bottoms. Is this an additional fee?
> 
> One of these days, I'll have enough to send somewhere... Hoping the ones I send come back. *grins*


Kevin,
I have seen colonies come back to SC from CA and need splitting right away. A friend of mine bought a load out of the orchards and quite a few of those we took enough out of to make two new colonies.


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## KevinR

Keith Jarrett said:


> suck down overwinter triples


What do you mean by this? Are you talking about using a fume board to drive the bees down or something else entirely?


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## sqkcrk

Keith, you and Steve were partners once, weren't you? 

You are both telling it like it is I suspect. There isn't just one truth about life w/ bees in amonds.


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## Keith Jarrett

Kevin, your qustion to steve is, if a TX of FL guy sends out 480 ect... and Steve splits them, your question is where does the equipment come from. In my post, I over winter triples so I suck them down to double deeps and the top boxes I make increase out of by putting two of the top boxes together and adding a queen. I am located here in Calif so there is no trucking issues of equipment. What Steve is saying I am having a hard time following.

How many guys out there from FL & TX have there broker split them when they hit Cali?????


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## jim lyon

Shouse said:


> Please email or call me to much details and variables to try and discuss here.
> 
> 99% of the beekeepers get their hives back before they swarm. There are exceptions to EVERYTHING! example some don't want the hives back in March in North Dakota with snow on the ground. and we keep them until June.


Really? There are beekeepers that send bees to California like maybe November and trust that all will be well with them the next June? There are really beekeepers that operate like that? All I can say is ummmmm wow. Will you guarantee the beekeeper that all their bees will be ready for a honey flow if they choose the June option?


----------



## Barry

I think they should be forced to drive a load of bees together, cross country and iron out all the pent up emotions over sub. We could place bets on how far they'd get.


----------



## jim lyon

Barry said:


> I think they should be forced to drive a load of bees together, cross country and iron out all the pent up emotions over sub. We could place bets on how far they'd get.


My guess is somewhere around Truckee. Folks will just refer to them as the Jarrett party.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

jim lyon said:


> My guess is somewhere around Truckee.


Yep, Barry & Jimmy at it again, my wife keeps asking me from the other room... What are you laughing at.  
Carry on.


----------



## sqkcrk

I hope you laughed at my Post first Keith. Good info coming thru between the tet au tet. (which probably isn't how it's spelled)


----------



## Haraga

So if the bee owners send out a semi load of bees to Ca. how do they get the extra equipment out there for the splits? Do they send another trailer out with spare equipment?


----------



## sqkcrk

And who is going to do the splitting? One would have to spend a lot to find someone who would take as good a care of someone elses bees as they would their own. Seems to me.

I wouldn't want to be in that set up on either end.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Yep... I keep hearing the same story right before the almonds..... sure wish these bees weren't so strong I just don't know what I'm gonna do.


----------



## mgolden

jim lyon said:


> Really? There are beekeepers that send bees to California like maybe November and trust that all will be well with them the next June? There are really beekeepers that operate like that? All I can say is ummmmm wow. Will you guarantee the beekeeper that all their bees will be ready for a honey flow if they choose the June option?


Jim, think I recall you as migratory. Thinking returning in March could be disastrous, if you get brooded up boxes and a cold snap. Know we got a May cold snap some five years ago and it was really hard on brooded up hives. 

Just curious of what you do? Stay and baby sit and ??some feeding of bees in California until cold weather risk is minimized?????


----------



## Nick Noyes

So if I feed Mann Lake pollen sub, split my hives before the almonds bloom, haul them from Florida and get them back to North Dakota in June ready to make honey..... I get $200.
Seems pretty simple really.


----------



## Honey-4-All

sqkcrk said:


> Keith, you and Steve were partners once, weren't you?


Keith and Steve were once partners? Pretty funny....... pretty sad. I remember the day they broke up like it was yesterday. I was moving bees from the oranges to the sage and 99 south was loaded with firetrucks and ambulances heading south in mass. The radio said it was the Rodney King verdict riots in LA. THe real reason was Keith and Steve had another one of their spats and the governor declared martial law to get them off of eachother. 




sqkcrk said:


> You are both telling it like it is I suspect. There isn't just one truth about life w/ bees in amonds.


If thats the case then the only way I can agree with you is that one is telling the "truth" from a beeks perspective and the other from a brokers perspective. Think its time you show up for a years vacation and help these guys out to "find out the truth for yourself."


----------



## red

You could posibly use that sub for a jack stand if you get a flat tire on your car. I still have a patty I keep around for sharpening my ax when it gets dull.:applause: For the people asking about splits, it's been my experiance you provide your own equipment and you do all the work. If you have a winter yard in Cali. it's not a problem. If you don't it gets more complicated on your options.


----------



## sqkcrk

Why would someone keep it longer than it takes to feed it? Did someone buy a bunch and then not use it? Order what you need. Otherwise, aren't you banking money in something which will over time become less valuable? Is that a good business practice?


----------



## HarryVanderpool

Someone aught to start a thread about brokerage fees.......


----------



## marshmasterpat

Got alittle off topic, there are lots of us that are interested in learning how this system works. 

Ya'll take the side fights out behind the barn or to another topic, this one is supposed to be on Typical Broker Fees and how that all works. Let's have the man answer the questions. 

The arguing is interesting to watch but heck I can get a better one started here at the house if I want see that.

Harry, much better said than I, I am just longer winded or as the wife says aways full of hot air.


----------



## jim lyon

mgolden said:


> Jim, think I recall you as migratory. Thinking returning in March could be disastrous, if you get brooded up boxes and a cold snap. Know we got a May cold snap some five years ago and it was really hard on brooded up hives.
> 
> Just curious of what you do? Stay and baby sit and ??some feeding of bees in California until cold weather risk is minimized?????


I couldnt agree more. Everything goes out of the almonds directly to Texas where they are ALL requeened and rebuilt. The extra freight is about $3 per unit for us. The cost of queen raising isn't much more for us than a .06 cell cup. The value of an east Texas buildup? Priceless. I tried hauling a few directly to South Dakota once. It was a huge mistake. Trusting someone else to do what I know needs done to my hives and getting bees ready for a northern honey flow isn't something I would even consider.


----------



## sqkcrk

A friend who takes bees to ME for blueberries told me that beekeepers will spread pallets around the barrens for a fee of about $2.10 per hive. Is that similar in CA almonds?


----------



## Haraga

Once again, how does the extra equipment get out to Ca. To make the splits?


----------



## G B

[



When I bought my 550 ford the guy I got it from usually sent 4 and a half loads of bees. On the partial load he put on any extra equipment that he thought he would need. And he used the 550 to pull a long flat bed trailer to put pumps tanks for feeding. Hope that helps GB



QUOTE=Haraga;1024262]Once again, how does the extra equipment get out to Ca. To make the splits?[/QUOTE]


----------



## Brian Suchan

Haraga said:


> Once again, how does the extra equipment get out to Ca. To make the splits?


It appears outta the sky just like all the $ with almond pollination. Just ask the peeps that never had any aluminum foundation in their outfit till they started sending bees to cali


----------



## swarm_trapper

lol well at least they were kind enough to put something back in 



Brian Suchan said:


> It appears outta the sky just like all the $ with almond pollination. Just ask the peeps that never had any aluminum foundation in their outfit till they started sending bees to cali


----------



## Honey-4-All

Brian Suchan said:


> It appears outta the sky just like all the $ with almond pollination. Just ask the peeps that never had any aluminum foundation in their outfit till they started sending bees to cali


Question is. Was it the aluminum foundation with "drawn comb" or just the flat sheet "foundation" ?


----------



## Shouse

jim lyon said:


> Really? There are beekeepers that send bees to California like maybe November and trust that all will be well with them the next June? There are really beekeepers that operate like that? All I can say is ummmmm wow. Will you guarantee the beekeeper that all their bees will be ready for a honey flow if they choose the June option?


Jim, It is very common for Beekeepers from states such as Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, or Utah to send their hives to California beginning in September/November to winter their hives in preparation of Almond pollination season. Then in addition, request that their hives remain in Southern California in 80-degree plus weather surrounded by Avocado orchards (or other crops) until the subfreezing weather and snow conditions at home have past. I have a hard time conceiving that you do not understand that. 
I mention those states because we currently winter hives from some of those states, and have receive inquiries from beekeepers in each of those states seeking such services. Over the years, demand has grown to a point that we are currently negotiating land for bee yards to double and maybe triple the number of hives we can winter in 2014. A few weeks ago, we planted sites with over 1,200 pounds of wildflower seeds provided by Project Apis m. We hope to plant several thousands of pounds in 2014 in preparation of having a pre and post, Almond bloom food source to accommodate additional wintered hives.

*As for guarantees?*

*YES, we absolutely GUARANTEE our products, services, and payments to every one of our Beekeepers, Growers, Vendors, Employees, and Partners.*


----------



## Honey-4-All

[

*As for guarantees?*

*YES, we absolutely GUARANTEE our products, services, and payments to every one of our Beekeepers, Growers, Vendors, Employees, and Partners.*[/QUOTE]


Steve, How do you run this? Are you the guarantor or is this done through an outside bonding company?


----------



## Barry

Honey-4-All said:


> Steve, How do you run this? Are you the guarantor or is this done through an outside bonding company?


I bet it's a bit like that certain pollen sub, some things remain confidential unless you're the one signing on the line.


----------



## KevinR

They email that I got from Shouse, had the option to purchase insurance... Not sure about the other guarantees. I don't have enough hives to justify really digging into it. 

I just want to know what to expect. Next year I'll be one step closer to bee world domination... or to the poor house.. one of the two..


----------



## Honey-4-All

Keith Jarrett said:


> Yep, here comes the fluff.


Dear Honorable Blue Boxes,

Please step out of the out of the way if only for a second. I don't care if its before or after you put the hatchet down. Time for you to buy one of those invisibility cloaks and test it on yourself until I get my answer. 

I'm asking a legitimate question! ?????? Go back to making sub. Might need some more as you predicted. 

He's making a pretty bold claim and think he needs a chance to follow up with how the "performance" on his side is handled. 

What is claimed is possible....... I'm just trying to find out how much meat is in the sandwich he's offering before another beek steps up to the counter where everyone doing so will need to pull a few hives out of their wallet to "make the purchase." at the hiis almond feast deli. Sliced hive tastes pretty poor if its not surrounded by a lot of payonasise and some whole wheat bread. ($)


----------



## Honey-4-All

KevinR said:


> They email that I got from Shouse, had the option to purchase insurance...



This is getting better by the minute!:scratch:


And who is writing the coverage? 

What does it cover? 

How do you file a claim? 

With whom? 

Whats the payment history on past claims?


----------



## Barry

I finally decided it's time for Keith to get an honorary Smiley.

:bus


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Wow, the "bus" has been added to the Smiley menu! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: 


Just to prove it works ...
:bus


----------



## KevinR

Honey-4-All said:


> This is getting better by the minute!:scratch:
> What does it cover?


_
Owners are responsible for freight costs to and from their location to our bee yard or the Grower’s orchard.
Owners can insure their hives against loss or damage up to a maximum of $150.00 per hive at a cost of $18.75 per hive.
_


All your questions were valuable questions. I personally didn't ask any of them, because I try to be conscious of peoples time, when I know that I'm not going to make use of product/service in the immediate future...

I'm just trying to get a "general" idea on what to expect in the next couple years... Although, it could be vastly different then.. It still gives me numbers to play with.


----------



## jim lyon

Shouse said:


> Jim, It is very common for Beekeepers from states such as Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, or Utah to send their hives to California beginning in September/November to winter their hives in preparation of Almond pollination season. Then in addition, request that their hives remain in Southern California in 80-degree plus weather surrounded by Avocado orchards (or other crops) until the subfreezing weather and snow conditions at home have past. I have a hard time conceiving that you do not understand that.
> I mention those states because we currently winter hives from some of those states, and have receive inquiries from beekeepers in each of those states seeking such services. Over the years, demand has grown to a point that we are currently negotiating land for bee yards to double and maybe triple the number of hives we can winter in 2014. A few weeks ago, we planted sites with over 1,200 pounds of wildflower seeds provided by Project Apis m. We hope to plant several thousands of pounds in 2014 in preparation of having a pre and post, Almond bloom food source to accommodate additional wintered hives.
> 
> *As for guarantees?*
> 
> *YES, we absolutely GUARANTEE our products, services, and payments to every one of our Beekeepers, Growers, Vendors, Employees, and Partners.*


Here is what I learned in the school of hard knocks. No one has the authority to open our hives in California for any reason other than to grade them. If you trust anyone else to do any type of manipulations to your hives it has a high probability of ending badly. I dont care how good a beekeeper you are a certain percentage of hives always come out of the almonds dead or in need of immediate help. Someone with a financial interest in those hives need to be working them. 80 degree weather surrounded by avocado orchards? Great! If they were mine I would be standing in that orchard waiting for them, ready to do what needs to be done. 
So there are beekeepers that trust you to manage their bees for 9 months out of the year? Seems a bit of a reach to even call such a person a beekeeper. My question, again, to you Shouse is will you guarantee that all the hives you receive in September will be ready for a northern honeyflow the following June and what size will they be? That guarantee is at least as important as a guarantee of a rental payment.


----------



## babybee

Where do I sign up? Tired of bending over these hives when someone else wants to do it for such a minimal price. Nine months of vacation and still get my almond money and a strong hive for my honey flow!!! Do you take singles????


----------



## jim lyon

babybee said:


> Where do I sign up? Tired of bending over these hives when someone else wants to do it for such a minimal price. Nine months of vacation and still get my almond money and a strong hive for my honey flow!!! Do you take singles????


Why stop there? Surely someone will super and extract your crop. You could spend half the year on the beach in Costa Rica cashing checks. :bus
Ooops, wrong smilie . There. 
In all seriousness though, the notion of a haven for bees for a few weeks waiting for better northern weather is one thing. Expecting someone else to do the real hard work of beekeeping is quite another and talk of holding bees till June is, well,


----------



## KevinR

I'm still interested in the holding yard aspect, I don't believe my weather will allow for the proper build up to make the almond run... I don't really know what I'd like from a broker, but just offering a warm area to put them in probably wouldn't be enough. Since this isn't my day job and would only have a small number of hives, I don't believe I could justify flying/driving out to put syrup on the hives. A few trips out to Cali would kill any potential profits in my mind. So... It looks good on paper, but I'm cautiously optimistic that it all works out as advertised... *When I get around to that adventure in beekeeping*

Obviously there's a lot of room for shenanigans, but if someone "truly" did everything advertised. I'd have no problem shouting their names from the rooftops. 

I'd just be concerned that my healthy hives with new boxes and new frames would turn into a sickly bees in old boxes and old frames, or some mixture of the new/old. Not to mention, that it would be "very" easy to skim off the top... 

i.e. I send out 500 hives, where one frame per hive is "borrowed". It quickly becomes a lucrative business where those that's 50 new unaccounted for hives disappear. But, then again... If everything worked out... Maybe that's a small price to pay.... *shrugs*


----------



## Honey-4-All

Shouse said:


> You call it “fluff” because the words such as Guarantee, Integrity, Respect and Excellence are not in your vernacular.



Steve, I have known Keith a long time. Maybe you might want reconsider your implications. He might not know how to spell the words but after 25 years of crossing paths with him I would say he knows how "walk" them. I jumped on him to give you the space to answer my question. Maybe not for myself although it should be pertinent and valuable info for anyone who might be considering using your services. Not sure why you are unable or unwilling to answer the question both promptly and honestly. Should be pretty simple to do so? The use of ad hominems just blows it!!!!! :s


----------



## HarryVanderpool

My typical brokerage fee:
ZERO!!
This will be my 10th year with the same grower.
Why do I need a broker??!!!!!
I understand that for many far, far away beekeepers, a broker is an asset.
But please do not assume that IF you want to pollinate almonds, you MUST go through a broker!!
If you have the where-with-all to do it; be your own broker and pocket your own fees!!!
Place your info on the Almond Board site.
Advertise on the California news papers.
Good luck to all of you this year!!


----------



## Honey-4-All

Well: There you have it. The answer is $0-150. Depends on who does what! 

When the DIY brokerage route is available in your schedule then thats the way to head. Otherwise hit the real brokers up and TYC.( take your chances)


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Keith Jarrett said:


> $15-150 depending on what the "broker" wants to pay you.


Hey I was pretty close.


----------



## KevinR

HarryVanderpool, 

How many hives do you send the Almonds and how much time do you spend in California looking after them?

What is your "average" pollination fee per hive?

Thanks, 
-Kevin


----------



## westernbeekeeper

Keith Jarrett said:


> Hey I was pretty close.


But then again, you usually are. 



KevinR said:


> HarryVanderpool,
> 
> How many hives do you send the Almonds and how much time do you spend in California looking after them?
> 
> What is your "average" pollination fee per hive?
> 
> Thanks,
> -Kevin


Good question; I'd like to know as well.


----------



## KevinR

*shrugs*

If your advertising/stating that you don't run with a broker and your doing all the work yourself... I think it's reasonable to ask "roughly" how much money he's getting, how many hives he's running, and how much time he's spending out there. I don't need to know his end of year 1040 statement etc...

If he comes back with $150 per hive, 3 trips 3 weeks in Cali for 500 hives... IMO, it would be worth my time to find a broker to try to deal with some of those headaches...

Since, I'd be looking at a 28hr one way drive, not including gas, food, sleeping in the back of the truck... etc..


----------



## Honey-4-All

Kev 

Its not about what a broker says he will do...... Its about what he or his crew actually does. Unless the broker imports skilled labor from overseas its most likely that he has "brokered" more than he can "care" for. Dropping bees off a semi and then opening them in the almonds is a whole lot less work than doing "real" beework inside the box. The gamut of services the brokers offer varies. It all costs time which is money.

As Mr. Lyon said previously the longer the bees are out of the hands of the person with the highest state of vested interest the higher the risk the owner of the bees incurres. Once you get past a semi load I would pair up with someone who will willingly partner with you where you could fly out yourself and crack your own back and boxes.


----------



## KevinR

I agree wholeheartedly... Trust me... I'm not "excited" about anyone killing my bees but me.. er I mean managing...

I just need to be realistic and understand the financial and time impacts. I may not make sense at all for me to chase almonds... But the only way to know is to ask questions.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Harry Vanderpool maintains a long term pollination relationship with a single grower. See this thread for more on that:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...p=1000824&highlight=grower+friend#post1000824
Post #12


----------



## Shouse

Honey-4-All said:


> Steve, I have known Keith a long time. Maybe you might want reconsider your implications. He might not know how to spell the words but after 25 years of crossing paths with him I would say he knows how "walk" them. I jumped on him to give you the space to answer my question. Maybe not for myself although it should be pertinent and valuable info for anyone who might be considering using your services. Not sure why you are unable or unwilling to answer the question both promptly and honestly. Should be pretty simple to do so? The use of ad hominems just blows it!!!!! :s


We use both a verity (oops should be VARIETY) of difference types of insurances and bonding.

How do you guarantee your products or services?


----------



## Shouse

jim lyon said:


> Here is what I learned in the school of hard knocks. No one has the authority to open our hives in California for any reason other than to grade them. If you trust anyone else to do any type of manipulations to your hives it has a high probability of ending badly. I dont care how good a beekeeper you are a certain percentage of hives always come out of the almonds dead or in need of immediate help. Someone with a financial interest in those hives need to be working them. 80 degree weather surrounded by avocado orchards? Great! If they were mine I would be standing in that orchard waiting for them, ready to do what needs to be done.
> So there are beekeepers that trust you to manage their bees for 9 months out of the year? Seems a bit of a reach to even call such a person a beekeeper. My question, again, to you Shouse is will you guarantee that all the hives you receive in September will be ready for a northern honeyflow the following June and what size will they be? That guarantee is at least as important as a guarantee of a rental payment.


Jim, what part of YES did you not understand?


----------



## KevinR

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Harry Vanderpool maintains a long term pollination relationship with a single grower. See this thread for more on that:


Sounds good, but doesn't tell me how many hives and amount of time spent... I'm all about having a single grower/friend to deal with... Oregon is quite a bit closer to CA than I am... I need to know what to expect... i.e. 30 hours to get bees out there... Ideally, I'd be there to meet the hives... Unload into grove at specific locations, which takes x amount of time... Inspect/feed/etc hives, which takes x amount of time... Come back in 3 weeks and do it all again? Come back in another 3-4 weeks and pick them up? If it takes 2 days to deal with 500 hives, then you "might" assume that it's going to take 10 days to deal with 2000 hives... Etc...

Like I said before, I'm not trying to get his "trade" secrets and I'm years away from doing this... I'm just looking for more info.


----------



## jim lyon

Shouse said:


> Jim, what part of YES did you not understand?


Fair enough Steve though I am not hearing any specific size guarantee. I'm not the brightest guy in the world but it sure sounds to me like a guarantee that every hive sent west will be ready for a northern honey flow when received in June. We l expect to see a bulging single in early June averaging 8 frames of brood. If you can guarantee that at a reasonable charge you should be swamped with business though, nothing personal, none of it will be mine. I have been jilted too many times by similar arrangements.


----------



## KevinR

Thanks for the information... I'm not worried about not being beekeeper for the few months that the hives would spend in California. I'm concerned with that happens to the bees, how they will come back, whether I'll be paid accordingly, and the resulting fees from their CA vacation.

They "should" be back in time for me to do 99% of my normally bee stuff... I don't super here until around April 15th to catch the May/June flow and I don't start rearing queens until that general time frame.

I started asking around to see if there is anyone in the State that sends out to the Almonds, maybe I'll piggy back with them for the first trip out.


----------



## jim lyon

KevinR said:


> Thanks for the information... I'm not worried about not being beekeeper for the few months that the hives would spend in California. I'm concerned with that happens to the bees, how they will come back, whether I'll be paid accordingly, and the resulting fees from their CA vacation.
> 
> They "should" be back in time for me to do 99% of my normally bee stuff... I don't super here until around April 15th to catch the May/June flow and I don't start rearing queens until that general time frame.
> 
> I started asking around to see if there is anyone in the State that sends out to the Almonds, maybe I'll piggy back with them for the first trip out.


I think you are on the right track Kevin. If I send bees out to the Almonds, they are hand picked, they go out right before the bloom and come back immediately afterwards ( around 6 weeks) and even then I am pretty apprehensive about the condition of my hives when they are returned.


----------



## KevinR

jim lyon said:


> I think you are on the right track Kevin. If I send bees out to the Almonds, they are hand picked, they go out right before the bloom and come back immediately afterwards ( around 6 weeks) and even then I am pretty apprehensive about the condition of my hives when they are returned.


Do you send your bees somewhere else to winter and build up? I'm assuming that SD warms up slower than TN does... Zone 7 here..


----------



## Honey-4-All

Shouse said:


> We use both a verity of difference types of insurances and bonding.
> 
> How do you guarantee your products or services?


Still fairly ambiguous! Further clarification???????????? What do these cover. Any samples of the policies you can link to? 


What does "Verity" have to do with this in this context anyways? From my knowledge of latin based language your use of the word would imply veracity or "truthfulness." If one is true then the opposite most often is also . Is there such a thing a "not real or true bonds?"

As per our veracity.

Every person who gets queens and packages from us gets to verify their "SHAPE" before leaving with them. Any queen not laying that is returned will be replaced if its one of our marked ones to "verify" it. 

With ship bees our policy is clearly listed and available for people to read before purchasing. I never have my hand above theirs pushing the "purchase now" button. 

We do not promise 100 lb crops or 110% survival till almonds on bees and queens. The only thing I promise is that bees are both work and fun and that one must expect things to go adversely on occasion. 

I spend a lot of time working through people issues with bees so I can preclude it from happening as much as possible with future customers. People tend to replicate the same mistakes other people make so I like to inform them of the possibilities if they are willing to take the time to listen.

Is that what you were wondering or do you have further questions? I need to get outside to push brush in the almonds shortly so it might be a while before I respond. If you have a specific scenario you would like to have addressed please ask!


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> We use both a verity of difference types of insurances and bonding.

"verity" is a misspelling of "_variety_", as I read that sentence.


----------



## jim lyon

KevinR said:


> Do you send your bees somewhere else to winter and build up? I'm assuming that SD warms up slower than TN does... Zone 7 here..


Yes, we use our east Texas location for wintering and spring nucing. A number of years back we shipped to California in the fall and found that bees wintered through far better in Texas than the San Joaquin valley even though winter time temps were quite comparable. In addition the smaller hives that didn't make grade fared infinitely better in Texas during the time frame of the almond bloom. As a matter of fact a 4 comber in Texas might be every bit as strong by mid March as a six comber that was put in Almonds.. We could split and requeen the Texas hive before the California hive even made it back from California. Just one of those little tricks that even a small time guy like me has figured out.


----------



## Shouse

Honey-4-All said:


> Still fairly ambiguous! Further clarification???????????? What do these cover. Any samples of the policies you can link to?
> 
> 
> What does "Verity" have to do with this in this context anyways? From my knowledge of latin based language your use of the word would imply veracity or "truthfulness." If one is true then the opposite most often is also . Is there such a thing a "not real or true bonds?"
> 
> As per our veracity.
> 
> Every person who gets queens and packages from us gets to verify their "SHAPE" before leaving with them. Any queen not laying that is returned will be replaced if its one of our marked ones to "verify" it.
> 
> With ship bees our policy is clearly listed and available for people to read before purchasing. I never have my hand above theirs pushing the "purchase now" button.
> 
> We do not promise 100 lb crops or 110% survival till almonds on bees and queens. The only thing I promise is that bees are both work and fun and that one must expect things to go adversely on occasion.
> 
> I spend a lot of time working through people issues with bees so I can preclude it from happening as much as possible with future customers. People tend to replicate the same mistakes other people make so I like to inform them of the possibilities if they are willing to take the time to listen.
> 
> Is that what you were wondering or do you have further questions? I need to get outside to push brush in the almonds shortly so it might be a while before I respond. If you have a specific scenario you would like to have addressed please ask!


But how do you guarantee, by product liability, trucking, insurance, and performance bonds?


----------



## Haraga

How much does the farmer pay per hive for pollination either direct to bee owner? Does the farmer pay a higher price to th pollination company?
For example, in my area, the seed company might pay the management company 485$ per acre and the management company pays the bee owner 400$ per acre.


----------



## Honey-4-All

Shouse said:


> But how do you guarantee, by product liability, trucking, insurance, and performance bonds?


Not sure what we do applies to your question. Don't haul or care for others bees. Have farm and umbrella policy for stings and mishaps. The only product we now sell in the "bee" world are queens and packages. All of our CA honey besides a very few customers is disposed of through a unique barter arrangement that has been in existence for longer than you have been in business. All our "non CA" honey we retail. 

As per bonds its pretty simple.We don't purchase any. Don't tell people we do either. People inspect the bees and packages and if they are not up to snuff then they get their money back or get replacements. Always amazed how people rarely want the money back and would rather have the bees. 

Have only had 3 Visa charge backs in all the years. One of those was this summer when someone somehow snuck into our website to order a queen and was able to do so even when the store was "down." and I was out of state doing other bee stuff.

To be honest the bigger problem is producing enough of what people want to order. I don't sign up for bees in the almonds that we don't have on hand...... or should reasonably expect to be there on FEB 14 each year. You will not find a soul who ordered bees and had it cancelled cause we did not have enough stock on hand. In the last 7 years have only been one day late in package season with a partial days totals.

If we need to put the tents up over the hives and I can still assure the bees safety we will shake in the rain which I have done on many occasions much to the chagrin of the help who would rather wimp out and go home. 

We spend $0 on advertising besides working hard on good will which is fairly expensive. No print ads. Nothing online either in a long time. When the SEO crowd calls or emails I tell them to take a hike. The last two consecutive years we did the total went from $2k to $500 and then $0 for many years. 

IMO the best bond a person could post is having a long term history of performance. With queens and packages thats what we have.

Still searching for answers regarding the insurance and bonds you mentioned!!!!!

Any links to them......... or is it all "in house" ? (BTW no pun intended)

Is it a proprietary secret or am I missing something? 

Willing to try to answer any more of your questions if I have failed to do so. Not looking to skip out. Might help if I had some clarification on what your asking?


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## swarm_trapper

Shouse what else would a queen supplier do than what Phil has said? I mean stuff happens to every one and a money back guarantee is really the best that some one can do in my book. But i would like to hear what your queen guys do above and beyond that always looking for new ideas.
Nick


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## Honey-4-All

And, your concern with me is the what type of coverage we have, who the carrier is, and the reliability of our insurance companies and their ability to perform if needed. Really?[/QUOTE]

Steve: Glad to answer you. Here's how we do it. No fluff... no bull, no bank account full of money we did not earn honestly..... 

1. We won't take any order till January 15 each year. Could be sold out at this juncture if we would do so early but I wont do so. Heres a few reasons why we wait till that date. 

A. There are many great package and queen people besides ourselves and so I have no compunction about telling people where there other options are if they insist on getting in line "right now." I tell people what we have to offer. what the competition is doing as far as I know and then let people decide. We specialize in Smaller package orders. If someone wants a 1000 packages from us I tell them up front they will not get much of a discount from us and might want to check with guys like John Foster or OHBees or Koehnens if they want them "cheap." Packages are not a fire sale item for us. If I don't shake them we can run for $3.50-$4.00 a pound spring honey. 

B. If you had fed sub for as many years as I have you would know that there is rarely a hive that fails after January 15 from sub or anything else. Be that sub A or sub b. or no sub at all.

C. Most hive crashes are prevalent before Christmas if you actually open the boxes and look. This gives me three weeks slack to decide what our status is.

D. We happen to get a lot of bulk bees from those who get bees cranking coming out of the almonds. The good guys know the shape of their bees now and in early january. 
We write some big checks for bulk bees. I expect they tell me the truth regarding their situation and deal with those who don't throw fluff. Orders and pricing are based on whats "out there."

I spend a considerable amount of time communicating with others in this industry to get a sense of what the trends are. Helps keep things on the up and up. 

FYI: A great example of how valuable this "inside" info really is could be seen a few weeks back when I told you that you were way to low on what you were offering for 2014 almonds. My ears said your offers had no clue based on the current bee reality at that point. Took you a while but you finally came up with the "pricing" I knew would be needed to get a more "stable" market than was proposed under what you were offering back then. 

If you have purchased many queens you would realize that queen orders are always subject to availability depending on the weather. Its the standard.

To "beat" this we only take "pre-orders" for about 35% of what we are scheduled to produce. In english its called don't sell what you don't have.

If the take is good we add more orders or just get going on our own splits a little early.

The queens that are coming off are released in the following priority.

1. Preorders. 2. Our splits. 3. Additional package orders. 4. Additional loose queen orders. 

When April first show up I will get requests for hundreds of more queens each day than we produce. I will only sell them at that point only if the "pre pick check" says they are there statistically.

In that regards I will tell you right now that if you walked up with $100k in cash begging to get in line for queens next spring I would gladly and whole heartedly toss it back at you and tell you to get your "patience pants" back on if you really want our queens or packages. 

As I have said many times before you are welcome to search high and low for those who have not received what they ordered from us. I may be poor as a result but at leas t I sleep well at night.

As per worrying about your insurance etc........ I personally don't really care as the likely hood of my need to use you service is about zero. I have way to many contacts in this industry to "pass" on extras if I had them to even consider it. Never had one quality hive go unrented in 30+ years. 

If I recall correctly you are the one who brought it up but not very clearly. All I'm asking is that you explain what you meant when you brought it up. Still waiting. Are you unable to back it up or just unwilling?


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