# DWV? Need Advice



## mignolan (Nov 19, 2009)

My hive may have Deformed Wing Virus. The initial evidence is that there are lots of bees (a hundred? more?) walking among the leaves and grass in front of the hive that are either dead, or soon will be, most of them with deformed wings. 

I'd appreciate advice!

Some points and observations:


They're Canadian Buckfasts, or so I've been told, which may indicate a resistance to tracheal mites.
I'm in the Mid-Hudson Valley, so cold weather and shorter days are both key factors each day, with fewer minutes of daylight and likelihood of more cold each day.
My current configuration is a deep with two mediums, just consolidated down from three. Above the inner cover, I have a box of incomplete frames that have some honey or (mostly) many uncapped nectar cells. Atop that I have a feeder with 2:1 syrup. (I don’t actually expect them, at this point, to take it, it was already there, and we have a sunny week coming up, and I thought it makes more sense to keep it in place rather than to dump it.)
Earlier this afternoon I did a superficial inspection, and other than the sick bees that are on the ground, the hive looks robust, with bees spilling out of the deep, and with a very strong population throughout.
Until perhaps ten days or so ago, there was no evidence of any problem — in warmer weather, there were just a handful of walkers in front of the hive at any given time that had no observable health issues, except for the fact that they weren't flying and seemed to have low morale. As of last week, however, I first noticed some bees with deformed wings, but only a few. Today, when I looked, I saw many — as I said above, at least dozens, and perhaps hundreds. 
In all the firsthand observations, and in all the photos I've taken, I've never seen a mite on a bee (for what it's worth).
Some of the bees that are sick look brownish/blackish — not at all the vibrant yellow-and-brown stripes adorning that the rest of the bees in the hive — and they seem small by comparison, as well.
I'm reluctant (!) to medicate artificially — if at all possible, I want to avoid that, but I'm not unwavering on that.

I've started a mite count this morning, and plan on pulling the board and doing the count on Wednesday. I'll follow that with a powdered sugar treatment.

I'm of two conflicting thoughts on the number of bees that are sick:


The sick bees are a self-selecting population. That is, they've behaved in ways that make them noticeable, or have been kicked out of the hive, which might indicate a much deeper problem than may actually be.
Sick bees that are noticeable may hint at a much larger problem among the other bees that are difficult to observe.

I'm eager for suggestions, and appreciate them.


Mig


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## sparks2142 (May 26, 2010)

Thank you both for posting and replying. I have exactly the conditions you have both stated. Ugh!
I've been focusing on SHB and had them under control, so I didn't think about mites. I looked but never saw any mites so I thought it wasn't a threat. Yup...first year beek.
I'll be treating with Apistan today and hopefully get some brood from a friend. I'm in Florida so it's still plenty hot out. Maybe the girls will have a chance.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Sparks2142

Ask your bee inspector, most mites around the world are resistant against Apistan and Chumaphos. You might have to go for a different treatment like formic acid, thymol or oxalic acid.

To get rid of the DVW and all the sick bees, I would remove and destroy all brood combs and let the queen start again on empty and clean combs.. You can treat the brood free hive one time with OA vapor and your hive would be mite free, the new bees coming out the cells in healthy condition. 

This might work in a warm climate like yours; otherwise it is too late in the year to save the hive.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Where you're located in NY state, the odds are that it is too late in the season for the queen to start over on fresh comb, to build up a population to survive the winter.

If the hive doesn't make it through the winter, I'd suggest starting over next spring with some resistant/hygenic bees, like many of us are using. Very low mite levels (I wish I could say no mites, but I'm convinced I have some, though have never done a mite count or treated in 5 years), and absolutely no chemical treatments. The bees initally cost about the same, but the money saved by not using chemicals, and the peace of mind is priceless.
Regards,
Steven


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## sparks2142 (May 26, 2010)

Does freezing the comb kill the virus? Obviously it'll kill the brood and varroa, but would the frame and comb be reusable after freezing?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

No freezing will not kill the viruses.

Freezing is not needed anyway because without the bees, the varroas will quickly die, once the brood is dead. The frame can be re-used the following year, the bees will clean it up just keep it clear of wax moths during the winter.

As to the viruses, DWV is a bee virus that was around long before varroa, but was very rare. Now it's spread by varroa and a lot of DWV in a hive tells you there is a varroa infestation. Without the varroa, DWV is not a serious problem it is not worth worrying about the DWV virus in a comb, just use the comb anyway.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

If it were my hive I'd treat with oxalic acid. Vapor or dribble asap. then hit them again when there is no brood. Nothing to lose and the hive might survive.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Is this also referred to as K wing or where wings appear to be chewed off? Newbee here.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

This late in the year you would be hard pressed to succeed with any lite treatments... Follow Oldtimer's instructions to the "T", he is absolutely correct... The first chemical he mentioned comes in a product named Maverick and can be mixed in a 20:1 ratio with water and applied by stream sprayer directly through the entrance (attempt to completely soak the bottom board from back to front)... This is a contact killer and will quickly dry leaving a thin layer of powder on the bottom board... It works very well... But he is also correct about adding some brood... and I would do so Before you treat unless you are absolutely certain that it came from a mite-free colony...

As to the mites developing a resistance to Coumafus... Not likely... This is one of the strongest chemicals that you can put in your hives... The only way that ANY pest can build a resistance to a treatment is if you use too little for too long... If it is applied correctly and does its job, there will be no pests left to become resistant... 

The treatment method for coumafus that works the best is to apply 2% CoRal Powder (Coumafus) via 1 heaping table spoon along each of the top, rear corners of the brood chamber and one table spoon across the top, front of that same deep. This will of course be cleaned up by the bees and thus it will find its way all over the frames, killing every mite within, and preventing their return usually for 2 seasons as it has residual properties in the wax for 6+ months... You have already removed your honey supers, so mark the exterior of the supers that will be on the hive during the treatment period so that you do not use them in the future for extracting, they can be used for wintering each year and rotated to other hives in the event that you need to treat another one.

I would suggest looking into some queens with resistant genetics though... Canadian Buckfast should have a certain level of resistance, and even though NO bee is "mite-proof", I would think that your bees are most likely not resistant... 

Good Luck!


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

*Oldtimer,* I need your opinion please.
Two months ago I had exactly the same problem, my bees very diying, big lumps of dead bees in front of all 5 hives, and some were acting like they were drunk. Wasn't sure if they were poisoned or mite infested.
I had to treat them with Apivar, and every time I went to check them they were looking better.
Last weekend I checked them and everything looked fine, five hives in 12 deeps full of bees and honey. The question to you is I had only 10 strips of Apivar, so I used 2/colony, and manufacture said 2 per box.
Do you think I am safe to overwinter?Now they look good and happy.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK thanks for asking me, i just should say first anything rrussell6870 says is well worth listening to he's one of the most knowledgeable professional beekeepers on the forum.

Boxes of honey don't count when determining how much Apivar to use, it's just the brood that matters, for deeps you should use a strip of Apivar to each 4 frames of brood. So I'm just guessing that at the time you would have had more than 8 frames of brood in the hives, so the 2 strips would have been stretching things a bit. Anyhow without testing your hives i can't say for sure, but it does sound like the Apivar has done the job. 

Also, with Apivar, the label says to leave the strips in the hive for 6 weeks, it's better to leave them in 10 weeks if there are any concerns. But at the end of 10 weeks they should be removed or they will be giving a lower dose which can let the tougher mites survive, and therefor breed towards resistance in the mite population.

Anyhow you say things now appear fine, and there will have been time for a healthy generation of bees to be raised, so if you can't find any pms in the brood, or the other symptoms you mentioned, it's looking likely you are good to go! 

I would be inclined to monitor things during the winter just to be certain. If you see any DWV or other symptoms there is no reason not to treat even out of season. Just take care of that, and it sounds like they have plenty stores, you can look forward to 100% wintering success!


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Oldtimer,
this is our first year using Apivar we have used bayvarol up till now for treatments in Autumn and spring, The apivar has been in the hives at the reccommended dosage for nearly 6 weeks but I'm seeing some hives with DWV.
Have you heard of any problems up North with anyone using Apivar?

frazz


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Some resistance has been reported overseas ( from NZ ).

However i used it in my own bees this year. After 6 weeks there was still some DWV, I complained and sent photos to the distributor, ( NZ Beeswax ), and he told me to leave it in 10 weeks. 

I've posted one of the pics I sent them after 6 weeks, as you can see there is still a problem.

I didn't think leaving for 10 weeks was going to work, but after the 10 weeks the bees were just about clear, did some alchohol washes and some tests on 300 mls of bees produced no varroa.

I think for some reason, apivar is slower than the other strips, especially bayvarol is pretty quick, but in my case anyway, apivar did eventually get there in the end.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

What rrussell 6870 recommends may well work but I would suggest you read up on Coumaphous and CoRal before you decide if that is for you. By far the worst fall losses I have taken were after spring treatments with Check-Mite (coumaphous). We had only used the product for 2 consecutive years and it was almost totally ineffective after the 2nd year. The CoRal dusting, which is totally off label, grew out of the resistance problems of Check Mite. Rrussell correctly points out that this will linger in the combs. Personally I vowed after our Coumaphous fiasco to never again use hard chemicals in our hives. I know that I am in a minority among commercial beekeepers but we have thrived in recent years with Thymol, Oxalic and a timely requeening (and the resulting brood interruption). Do we still battle mites? yes. Has it hampered our ability to keep our numbers up and resulted in poor honey crops? No.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

MedHat Nashir gave a talk about Apivar at the Manitoba Beekeepers Convention. MedHat is Alberta's Provincial Apiarist.
While talking about Apivar he metioned several things for success.
1. Apivar is a contact application. The bees need to walk over it. Now if you are feeding or left mostly honey in the top box and placed the Apivar in the top box, you pretty much shoved $ down the drain. Once the bees moved to the lower box the Apivar became ineffective. It needs to be placed in the cluster area where brood are. 
2. Temps do play a bit of a role with it...too cold with bees clustering and it does not work
3. If the bees are full in two boxes, 2 per box in required to maximize effacy. 1/2 the dose just builds up immunity or resistance to the drug that much faster where the mites are concerned. It's like treating an illness in humans. When the doctor gives drugs...complete the medication even if you are feeling better, otherwise reinfection will occur and the bacteria will have developed some resistance to the drug in question

In his talk, he metioned several AB beekeepers coming back to him and saying this stuff did not work. After questioning the keepers, and finding out most used two strips and placed in the top box, and fed bees, he set these keepers straight on the proper use of the stuff and the next season went much better.


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

Thanks Oldtimer, they look really good now, I left Apivar for longer than six weeks, for nine to be precise, I was happy to see so many bees they look healthy no DWV, I agree with Jim about use of harsh chemicals I have sbb and ventilation boxes/ inner covers (honeyrun apiares style) and will implement drone frames and sugar dusting in the spring, also contacted a russian and carnica queen breeders here in Ontario for some queens in the spring.
Honeyshack temperatures were O.K. two months ago, they didn't cluster back then, so I hope Apistan worked.
Thanks for your answers/comments


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good to hear it worked out Marbis. Yes using a resistant bee, and also drone removal, is an excellent plan. I saw a presentation recently where a method was described for drone larvae removal. In spring, they placed one empty frame on the edge of the brood nest, in each box of the brood nest. The bees filled it with drone comb, and before the 24 day drone developement period was over the drone comb with larvae, was cut out and the frame put back in the hive. This was done 3 times total, and removed an overwhelming majority of varroa from the hive. The method was described by a commercial honey producer who uses it as standard procedure in his hives now.

Jim and others I should say that the method rrussell 6870 described using Coumaphous is illegal in my country I have no experience with it. In any case Apivar uses Amitraz, not Coumaphous. The beauty of Amitraz is that once it leaves the strip and is distributed in the hive, it breaks down into a virtually harmless substance within a few days. Because of this it does not build up in wax or honey like the other products mentioned. 

Honeyshack I guess I took it forgranted that treatment strips, of any type, would be put among the brood. Yes, if they are plonked up in a honey super they are not going to be fully effective, guess i should have actually said that.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Oldtimer said:


> Honeyshack I guess I took it forgranted that treatment strips, of any type, would be put among the brood. Yes, if they are plonked up in a honey super they are not going to be fully effective, guess i should have actually said that.


I guess I should have been more clear. Not in an actual honey super but rather when we feed, the top super of the brood chamber becomes packed with syrup and the bees tend to move downward. This is where alot of the misconception of Apivar comes from. If i dump two strips in the top brood box, and do not think down the road a couple of weeks when the feed is almost in, the top box does not see the hustle and bustle the lower brood box does. As well, if a fall cool snap hits, the bees run for cover in the bottom box protecting the rest of the brood. By this time usually the top box is empty of brood and is just syrup. Making Apivar a costly expense with little return

I think this is why i like formic better than apivar. Formic goes on the top box, using fumigation rather than contact. As well, since i run two brood chambers, I do not have to crack the two apart and fish out the bottom strips. Helps alot in the cool fall weather. That and formic was a three week treatment rather than 6 weeks. Only draw back was temps...


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

honeyshack said:


> That and formic was a three week treatment rather than 6 weeks. Only draw back was temps...


Same reason here, but glad that Apivar is still considered to be soft treatment, compared to others.


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## FloridaBee (Oct 23, 2010)

Thank you all for the great info. I’m a 1st year bk’er, and I just want to confirm what I’m reading. Today I completed my 3rd week of a Powered Sugar Sprinkle in an effort to control Varro mites. I conducted my 1st series (once a week for 3 weeks) of Powered Sugar Sprinkle a month ago. I didn’t think I had a big mite problem (I use a screen bottom with an oil tray/board under that, and the mite count was not too high (3 per square inch approx). But now today, after the sugar sprinkle, I noticed a significant number of girls apparently kicked out – the vast majority with DWV and one with a visible Varro mite (1st time I’ve actually seen that in person). So, now I’m reading all these notes and want to ensure I’m straight. – Get Apivar, use two strips per brood box; leave on for 10 weeks. Question: my hive is composed of a brood box and two supers. The first super is for the girl’s winter honey stores, and the second super is for any extra honey they can make for me. Do I have to take off the second super when I treat with the Apivar?


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

FloridaBee said:


> . Do I have to take off the second super when I treat with the Apivar?


Definitlly *YES*, you don't want any chemicals in your honey for human consumtion, that's the problem up here, northern beeks wait for honey to be capped in order to be harvested, and that is often September, so temperatures can drop any time bellow 10 C, so you can't use formic acid as the softest kind of treatment succesfully, and in order to save colony you use harsher things.
You are in the South, if you have to treat go with something softer.
Regards


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

It is a GREAT idea to ALWAYS remove any supers that will be extracted from (even in future seasons), BEFORE you use any chemical treatment... INCLUDING chemicals that are naturally derived...

A safe practice is to mark the exterior of the supers that will need to remain during treatment (for example, we used jet black spray paint and made bold solid stripes around each of our "treatment" supers). These supers can be placed on during the last flow of your season to use for winter stores, and can be tranferred to other hives that may need to be treated...

Yes bees forage on blooms that are covered in chemicals everyday and everywhere... yes they bring these chemicals home with them... and yes traces can be found in the wax, but EXTREMELY low trace amounts have been found in the honey that is within the wax... Even still... You should ALWAYS take every precaution that you can to seperate chemicals from your extraction supers.

We do not take off ANY honey any longer, but still maintain a marking system to keep clean supers seperate from those that have been treated... not easy with thousands of hives, but well worth the peace of mind that comes when watching my kids devour a fresh frame of honey that I bring home as a treat. 

Genetics is your next step... we do not "fight" varrora any more... Haven't had to in several years... So there are many treatments that have been released (or become popular), and many that have been banned since we were last in this fight... So listen to Oldtimer about what is ok to use legally..

When we first came under threat we tested dozens of treatments (chemical, and methodical/mechanical)... we found several ways to get rid of them Completely and we incorporated these treatments into our operations while we finished testing and developing the best genetics that we could find in our own stock as well as stock from others... now we do not have to treat and we randemly test for varrora using a sbb (which btw is NOT an option for a commercial operation), ether, and strips.... only had mites in 7 out of well over 5,000 hives over the past 4 years... Did we wait and see if the bees would fix it themselves?? No way! We wiped them out right away... 

NO BEE IS MITE PROOF... but find you some good genetics and "help" if its needed...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm just going to throw in here, that rrusell6870 sells queens, he can sort you out with a good hardy bee if you need one.

FloridaBee, the symptoms you mention do point to a big enough varroa problem to wipe out the hive overwinter if they are not varroa tolerant bees. You should definately treat.

Years ago it was simple but now choosing a method such as Apivar is a bit of a crap shoot because mites have developed immunity to these treatments in some areas. But if you go with Apivar the method you suggested, plus what Marbis answered, will be the best way to go about it. A good plan would be to check your sticky board the first few days of treatment, if it's working you will see a HUGE increase in dead mites. If there isn't, you'll need a different form of treatment. My own preferred method is formic acid, but there's a lot of variables to get right or it won't work, or, you can kill bees. It can also be hard on queens. ATM it's probably too late in the season to use FA, because temperatures are too low. The way i do it takes 24 hours and costs less than a dollar per hive. I only used Apivar this time on some hives because it tied in with the management of those hives at the time, FA was not appropriate, it does have problems and risks.


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## dthompson (Feb 10, 2008)

>we found several ways to get rid of them (sic VD) Completely 
>only had mites in 7 out of well over 5,000 hives over the past 4 years

I don't think I believe you
Please enlighten us all re several ways to get rid of them COMPLETELY 

dave


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

dthompson,

First I should say that I have never and will never "wait" on the government or others to save my bees... I have very large resources, an outstanding staff, and come from a long line of entomoligists in a family owned large commercial package and queen supply company... which has enabled me to manage thousands of hives since I was a very young child... and when the mites became a problem, our labs were focussed on killing them well before the government could tell you how many legs they had. 

The people that we were told to rely on when the mites began to get bad had a fraction of the education and much much less experience than most of us here, as well as many others around the world.... 

The next thing that I should point out is that Most of the methods that we used in our mite studies would most likely not be "approved" for use today... So DONT TRY THIS AT HOME!!!

Many, Many chemicals kill varrora, and pose limited threat to the bees... I have already described 2 methods, in earlier posts, that will completely rid a hive of varrora within one full hatch cycle... There are many other methods using coumaphous, Maveric, etc, that also work for this purpose...

But the most important method of treatment is to maintain genetics that can help you in the fight and make the varrora a minimal threat... 

We had many thousands of hives to inspect and pick the genetics of those that were already showing resistance to start with... we also knew of many other queen breeders and entomoligists around the globe that we worked with diligently in order to develope our own strains... This included several russian entomoligists that we brought here to study the threat with us and work to breed a more resistant bee... as they had already had a great deal of knowledge about varrora since they had been in russia for over 150 years... 

I invite you to read a few of my other posts... there are several in this forum, as well as the queen/breeding forum... you can also click on my handle and choose the option to "find all posts". As to if you believe me or not... sorry, but thats up to you... I will add though that... 1...I am not "selling" anything. We are booked up years in advance for packages by the large commercial resale companies, and our queens are sold out before feb. of each year... (this last year I ran queens up until last month to help out people who had taken losses to SHB). 2...I have many many posts telling people HOW to raise their own queens, and have been attempting to further peoples interest and aid them into creating more resistant queens at that.

I have always been reluctant to even mention that we do not have "issues" with mites, from fear of someone taking what I say out of context... If you read the post entirely, you should note that I was indeed deferring to a different bee keeper that I have spoken with several times and believe to be a very intelligent and experienced man that could answer the treatment question with more completeness than I, because he is more knowledgable about current regulations than I am...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I think its important to make a distinction about treatments in different types of operations. Beekeepers who are first and foremost package/queen producers or pollinators have a lot less downside risk with chemical treatments than those of us who are first and foremost honey producers. The former can have a year around treatment schedule the latter a couple months in the spring and a couple months in the fall. Honey producers using hard chemicals off label especially while honey supers are on put their own business and the industry at large at risk. The pure and healthful image of honey could be seriously harmed by the actions of a few. I recently sent honey samples out to most of the major packers in the country and told them I not only expect that the samples will be tested I encouraged them to test it for whatever they might choose I am confidant in the purity of our product. 

RR has obviously been successful in producing at lot of queens and packages and I will leave it to others if they choose to debate him on his methods. I will wholeheartedly agree with him on one point. Our government is really good at telling us what we cannot do but pretty much leaves us to our own devices to figure out what will actually works in the real world. If you take anything away from rr's post I think it should be "dont try this at home" there are definitely some chemicals out there that will kill mites but think long and hard before you decide if you want that stuff in your hives.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Folks, please please read RRussells posts... 

RR, if I'm wrong, please correct me... the inference I draw from your last post is that as the mites have developed resistance to chemical treatments, you've come to depend more upon genetics. Because of the genetics of your bees, you no longer have "issues" with mites. 

I and others here have said many times, requeen with resistant/genetic stock, and get off the chemical treadmill. I have never treated for mites, and never will. Several years ago I had one hive that had some DWV bees, but not enough to hurt, and the hive got over it. Occasionally when I open a hive and split some burr comb with drone larvae in it, I'll see a mite on such larvae, but never many...and I don't worry about it. My bees are doing just fine. Get good stock!

It's your choice folks, chemicals, or the right bee, and there are several varieties out there that require no chemical mite treatments.

Regards,
Steven


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

StevenG,

That is partially correct... ;-)

Mites have built their own resistance to several of the treatments that are available today... they will continue to do so as long as the treatments are not used in rotation (different chems for each NEEDED treatment), and as long as the treatments are TOO weak to actually wipe out the mites...

In your case, keep up the good work! Your stock has been developing its resistance through time as the mites in your colonies are not wiping you out.

The ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY time that a treatment should be used is to SAVE a colony from the mites... not after it is too far gone, but after the colony can no longer be considered "healthy"... You see an unhealthy colony can not improve its own resistance... We DID have to use chemicals when mites first arrived, but only to keep our colonies healthy enough to fight the mites for enough generations that they began to win the battles on their own...

The big issue here is that the chems that are on the market are very weak, and costly, and have to stay in the hives for far too long of a period to have any real effect... The weaker it is, the more mites will survive being subjected to it... The longer it remains, the stronger the mites resistance will become...

When we began our fight, these chems were barely thought of... so we tested, tested, and tested miticides from all spectums until we found the ones that would serve our purpose in the fastest, strongest, and least invasive ways possible... Our purpose?? Keep our bees strong and fighting by limiting the numbers of the mites in each study colony... did it work?? YES.

Now here is the kicker... If you just take a few queens that have zero lineage that has been subjected to varrora, then try to start building their resistance... you will be in for a very long fight... These genetics are available NOW by many suppliers across the world... They have already spent the time fighting, so do not go in reverse... get queens that are already advanced... they do not have to be russians either, so if you are looking for carniolans or yellow itallians, they are out there too (maybe not as advanced, but farther along than base stock and much less prone to swarm and somewhat more gentle)... 

Do I agree with treating... ONLY IF NEEDED... not just because there is a mite... Of course the only way to truly be effective at preventing a loss while NOT treating is to WORK YOUR HIVES... you will never know unless you look... OFTEN.

There are survivor stocks that are available as well... I am in no way knocking them... our developement practices are different in that they chose stock that was "left" after an infestation, where as we urged all of our stock to develop... Not every operation has the unique atmosphere that we do to use these types of methods... The end results are the same and I agree that survivor stock is very strong in resisting pests. Hope that covers everything and thanks for the post stevenG.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Just wanted to add that we are having this very discussion on another thread titled "losing my second hive, please help" Thanks!


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## Bill C Beekeeper (Aug 3, 2010)

My only thought here in reading all these posts is where is the prevention??? We all seem to focus on the cure for these mite issues, but not many seem to speak of the initial prevention of varroa infestation and overall colony health. Once the hive has become infested, it may be too late. Proper ventilation is critical to a healthy and productive hive. For this reason, I use screened bottom boards in all my hives in addition to venilated top covers. I dont prop up one side of the top cover like most do, I have actually built gabled top covers with gable end vents which wick out stale humid air that varroa and every other apiary pest loves to live in!!! All hives should also be elevated and located in as dry area as possible and facing the daily sun as much as possible. As humans, we dont wait to get sick before we start eating a good diet and clean up our unhealthy living conditions. For people like me who dont use harsh chemicals in the hive, this first two steps are extrmemly important necessary steps that need to be taken. Another is good feeding nutrition for the colony and making sure they are always running a surplus. And as beekeepers, we need to know how much to take and how much honey to leave for our hives to survive and prosper. Another important and overlooked issue is the selection and proliferation of extremely resistant strains of bees like russian stock and the breeding of good healthy colonies. Treatments should always be a last resort especially for the hobbiest or backyarder, certainly commercial migratory beekeepers and large scale operations dont have the time and resources to check every hive every week, so that is why they use massive amounts of chemicals to treat the hives in advance even though some hives may not need any treatments for years. Every beekeeper needs to figure out their own routines and methods to a clean, friendly, healthy apiary and produce the best untainted honey bees can produce....


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

MARBIS said:


> Same reason here, but glad that Apivar is still considered to be soft treatment, compared to others.


Really? Amitraz a soft treatment? How so?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Amitraz a soft treatment?


 Was the original reference (apivar) actually to ApiLife Var (thymol)?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well what I was talking about anyway, was Apivar ( Amitraz ), I think he used the term "soft", meaning that unlike the SP and OP strips that leave residues that taint honey and wax for years, Amitraz breaks down in a few days, once it's left the strip.

Most folks wouldn't call Amitraz soft, compared to say, Thymol, it's just how "soft" is defined, or not defined. 

Also, good point Beemandan, that is an issue with the names Apivar & Api Life Var, two completely different products. I deal with a lot of newbies and people are confused constantly, I do wonder why the manufactureres decided on such similar names. When i'm talking to people about it i always include the word strip, or paste, so they are clear what we are talking about.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Bill C good post and thoughts, the ideas you mention re general health are certainly relevant for a lot of bee ailments, such as Nosema disease.

Unfortunately in the case of varroa mites we are up against two problems. One is that mites are present in at least low numbers, in pretty much every hive. And the second is that varroa can thrive in a healthy bee colony.

As to prevention, what you suggested is a great plan, a resistant (or at least tolerant) bee. Such bees are being bred and queens can be bought. Not just Russians either.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

BillC. stated
My only thought here in reading all these posts is where is the prevention??? 

rrussell states
Bill C. this thread is from a gentleman that needed help handling DWV...Not about prevention... There are hundreds of posts that answer those questions...

BillC stated
Proper ventilation is critical to a healthy and productive hive. For this reason, I use screened bottom boards in all my hives in addition to venilated top covers.

rrussell states
Not in all locations... SBBs can cause lots of stress on a colony in areas where the temps are 100+ during the day and 62 at night, with 96-100% humidity... These areas are vital for the industry and home to several large operations, but with SBBs the colonies would not be able to maintain their temps and humidity, thus would be stressed and prone to swarm as well as be less productive... 

BillC stated
Another important and overlooked issue is the selection and proliferation of extremely resistant strains of bees like russian stock. 

rrussell states
NOT overlooked on beesource... check the breeding forums... you will find quite a few great discussions there... Although I will state once again that location should be addressed when considering stock...

BillC stated
certainly commercial migratory beekeepers and large scale operations dont have the time and resources to check every hive every week, so that is why *they use massive amounts of chemicals to treat the hives in advance even though some hives may not need any treatments* for years.

rrussell states
We are a very large commercial package and queen operation as well as a research foundation... we work very hard to find the best means to control and prevent pests and develop genetics that will serve our industry better while fighting the pests at the same time.... With thousands of hives we have NEVER "used massive amounts of chemicals to treat the hives in advance even though some hives may not need any treatments" We inspect all of our hives in most cases every three days or so, and manage all of our treatments to be the least invasive and most effective. I do not know of any other large operations that do these things either... maybe a few pollenators...but I doubt it... please keep in mind that while it seems like the large operations like us just treat every hive the same, that is far far from the truth... We have millions of dollars and over 125 years devoted to our bees...they are NOT expendable.


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## FloridaBee (Oct 23, 2010)

Bill C Beekeeper was saying earlier in this thread, "... I have actually built gabled top covers with gable end vents which wick out stale humid air that varroa and every other apiary pest loves to live in!!!" *** Is there any way we can see a photo of your design? I know I'd love to see it!


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Bill C Beekeeper said:


> certainly commercial migratory beekeepers and large scale operations dont have the time and resources to check every hive every week, so that is why they use massive amounts of chemicals to treat the hives in advance even though some hives may not need any treatments for years.


 I find this statement offensive and very presumptive on your part. Dont base statements like this on rumor, conjecture, or "what you have heard", statements as inflammatory as this one should be based on fact... and i doubt you have polled or observed very many commercial or large scale operations using massive amounts of chemicals to treat hives in advance of anything.


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Well what I was talking about anyway, was Apivar ( Amitraz ), I think he used the term "soft", meaning that unlike the SP and OP strips that leave residues that taint honey and wax for years, Amitraz breaks down in a few days, once it's left the strip.


Thanks Oldtimer, that's what I meant.
Also, could you please explain your Formic acid treatment?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I've started a different thread just to avoid a side track of this one. here's the link.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=595957#post595957


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

In reply to some of what BillC has said in his post regarding commercial beekeepers I have to say it never ceases to amaze me the things that are posted here on beesource some times.

I've heard it all 
commercial beekeepers use "massive amounts of chemicals"
they "dont have time to look after their hives".
they take all the honey and feed back sugar syrup.
they dont take time to observe the bees.
they shift them here and there.

This is just some of the stuff I've read that comes to me off the top of my head.

I want to know do you guys who write this stuff actually know any commercial beekeepers?
and why is it that commercial beekeepers know nothing about bees or beekeeping but the guy with 2 hives in his backyard knows it all?

frazz


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## Bill C Beekeeper (Aug 3, 2010)

Regarding my statement about commercial beekeepers and the use of the word "massive"....What I was trying to badly say was that with hundreds maybe thousands of hives, commercial beeks need to use enough treatment related materials to treat as many hive as they tend. I really didnt think at the time I made an offensive statement that many have taken offense to, AND TO THOSE I OFFENDED, I APOLOGIZE.:lookout:

It also seemed to me that the original post was made by a backyarder or hobbiest and the person perhaps needed to also understand how to prevent further infestation by other methods that work for some of us. I appreciate all who responded, but please dont take my statement out of context too much here. I do understand that, as beekeepers, we all have to deal with and control all elements within every hive we have. Varroa is in just about every hive and the equalibrium that exsists within the hive can be maintained to the point where bees and pests can live in a somewhat harmonious way without going out of control. I certainly dont know everything and dont ever post that I do, I just posted what works for me and that was it. I have been working bees throughout my lifetime but I dont have hundreds of hives cause I live in the city. Again, keep words in context.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Bill C Beekeeper said:


> I have actually built gabled top covers with gable end vents which wick out stale humid air that varroa and every other apiary pest loves to live in!!!


And is this your solution to varroa control? Venting out "stale humid air"? Considering all the humid air bees vent from the hive when ripening honey, and considering how many eons they've been doing this, why now all of a sudden is a gabled cover with gable vents the solution to all those apiary pests?

Have you watched bees vent their hive? Bees on one side of the bottom board entrance directing air flow into the hive and bees on the other side venting air out? And that air flow is directed up into the colony, and around, and back out the bottom. The bees really do have ventilation figured out, and will maintain the in hive humidity they need. Certainly thay don't allow "stale humid air" to fill the hive. After so much time practicing I remind you..."Bees make better beekeepers than beekeepers make bees".


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

FloridaBee said:


> Bill C Beekeeper was saying earlier in this thread, "... I have actually built gabled top covers with gable end vents which wick out stale humid air that varroa and every other apiary pest loves to live in!!!" *** Is there any way we can see a photo of your design? I know I'd love to see it!


I would also love to see how they stack


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## Bill C Beekeeper (Aug 3, 2010)

By no means am I trying to "make" better bees. And to Michael's point, I am only using natural convection to "help" the bees and the hive interior stay cooler and drier. I have found that my hives here in Maryland tend to be very humid year round, and have seen the moisture build up on the inner cover as droplets that drip back down into the colony leading to additional problems. By using gabled covers, I have eliminated this issue entirely. I know the bees dont need me to refine their millions of years of evolving to their present point, but by using natural convection I believe that it helps to keep the interior of my hives drier, that is it. I wonder why then some folks tip the outer cover up on one end???

As to controlling varroa, I use strains of bees that have a high resistance to varroa along with the before mentioned equipment and treating only when necessary, I have regressed all my hives down on small cell, and I havent had any issues or used treatments for 5 years.

What works for me, may not work for you. Just thought I would throw my ideas out to anyone who wants to know, but I didnt know that you all out there would try and pound me into the dirt and prove how wrong I am... :doh: Teaches me not to post!!!!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

No Worries Bill. 

What i've noticed since joining this forum is that commercial beekeepers are frequently portrayed as the devil. A gang bashing mentality has developed among some, mostly the least educated, and some of the drivel that's said is a bit hard to listen too, for me anyway.

Then you made the "massive chemical" statement, and all them frustrated commercials came out of the closet!!

And that's understandable i sometimes feel a strong urge to correct some of the falsehoods put around, but must bite my tongue because those with little knowledge and set opinions will only argue and degrade the thread.

I think i know what you were REALLY trying to say though. Chin up, life goes on!


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## Bill C Beekeeper (Aug 3, 2010)

Thanks, oldtimer, I am no expert and only wanted to throw ideas that work for me out there...I will keep my info to myself and read posts:shhhh:....HAPPY BEEKEEPING TO YOU ALL!!!


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

BillC,
As Oldtimer said, for me it's just the continual bashing of commercial beekeepers that gets up my nose and your comment about using massive amounts of chemicals meant to me that commercials used excessive amounts of chemicals willy nilly with no thought to the bees or the products they harvest from their hives. Which is so far from the truth for all the commercial beekeepers that I know, bar one

Maybe I need to take a breath like Oldtimer and just let it go, 
but I wasn't trying to bash you and I know that you will have lots of interesting post for me to read in the future.

cheers
frazz


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

You are certainly welcome to post and by all means please do. This is what makes forums so useful. Just try not to knock other operations because as you can see, most folks here bleed yellow, sweat wax, and sting too. I have troubles biting my tongue too. lol. I have learned that if you disagree, its best to simply ask if they have tried your way, and give a testament of how it worked for you.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>certainly commercial migratory beekeepers and large scale operations dont have the time and resources to check every hive every week, so that is why they use massive amounts of chemicals to treat the hives in advance even though some hives may not need any treatments for years.<<

>> but I didnt know that you all out there would try and pound me into the dirt and prove how wrong I am... :doh: Teaches me not to post!!!!<< 

Bill, if you're going to point fingers, you need to be able to defend what you say. Some of us are tired of being at the point of the spear. Books out in the last few years on natural beekeeping, top bar hives, et al have claimed and have convinced the newbies and novices and part timers that the commercial beekeepers have ruined the deal for everyone, when we're all together in the same boat. I for one am giving everything I have in time and energy to maintain a healthy bee operation. Don't say "certainly" if you don't really know. I'm sorry you took offence at my comments, but read through the new literature and online resources. You'll understand where my frustration comes from.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

frazzledfozzle said:


> I want to know do you guys who write this stuff actually know any commercial beekeepers?


Let's beware that you're pov and experience is coming from a different continent. 

There is no need for anyone to belittle or put down another's pov, and this thread is turning down that road.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

I'm sorry Barry but I'm not sure what's wrong with the quote you highlighted?
Are you saying that what I said about knowing any commercial beekeepers was belittling and a put down?

cheers
frazz


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

frazzledfozzle said:


> BillC,
> As Oldtimer said, for me it's just the continual bashing of commercial beekeepers that gets up my nose and your comment about using massive amounts of chemicals meant to me that commercials used excessive amounts of chemicals willy nilly with no thought to the bees or the products they harvest from their hives. Which is so far from the truth for all the commercial beekeepers that I know, bar one
> 
> Maybe I need to take a breath like Oldtimer and just let it go,
> ...


I think you said it all in the above post frazz... very respectful and kind... Barry is a good guy, he probably just missed the later part of the thread. 

PS... Do you or Oldtimer know if NZ is allowed to ship to the US currently? I am in need of packages and some of your carniolan stock for an isolated production study...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

> Books out in the last few years on natural beekeeping, top bar hives, et al have claimed and have convinced the newbies and novices and part timers that the commercial beekeepers have ruined the deal for everyone...


Mike, I hope that I have not made you feel that way. There is a lot wrong with commercial beekeeping (especially migratory pollination practices), but I don't think your operation is on that list.

I will say that I recently had a very large commercial beekeeper (someone who has a significant percentage of the colonies on the east coast) tell me to my face that his practices are not good for the bees (wrt to feeding, treating, splitting, transporting, etc). To a large extent, what is bad for bees is bad for beekeeping.

deknow


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

deknow said:


> Mike, I hope that I have not made you feel that way.
> deknow


No, because you don't make crazy blanked statements as the poster did. You have your ways, well posted, that you are actually following through with. Right or wrong, successful or not, you raise issues and propose alternatives. Others point fingers and form opinions because of something they read on the internet. Blasting away at anyone without understanding all the facts, and criticizing without offering an alternative is the wrong approach, in my opinion.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I think it is mainly just the mentality that all commercial operations are managed the same way. Very far from true. Everyone operates differently and those that do silly things like over-treating and treating without cause will NOT have bees for long, so why worry about it... There have been numberous companies that were "chaising the buck" by getting funding to buy thousands of colonies, then rushing them to the almonds... this may work for the first season, but very soon after, they begin to loose hundreds of colonies and do not know why... thats when they finally start to try to figure out what they are doing... And that is where you find commercial operations that are following ill-practices...They are just the "left-overs" of a poorly planned business that will no doubt be completely out of business very soon.

As for REAL commercial operations... They start just like everyone else does... the reason that they grow to such large numbers is simply because they have a "nack" for it and through trial and error, good sense, and taking the time to do things right, they continue to grow until they become what they are today. 

If someone has a few million to blow and no knowledge of bees, they could very well start this type of operation... But if they have been around for a while and continue to grow... it is because they are simply GREAT beekeepers...

We all get tired of being referred to as the "walmarts of the bee industry"...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

rrussell6870 said:


> We all get tired of being referred to as the "walmarts of the bee industry"...


...giving advice to use off label formulations (and doses of coumaphos that will kill mites for 2 years) to a hobbyist with one hive won't help that reputation one bit. (post #10)

i'm amazed at what people will put in writing. sometimes we have a hard time convincing customers what goes into most beehives.

i wouldn't eat honey from a hive that had enough coumaphos in it to kill mites for two years (and i don't care if the honey supers were not on at the time of treatment). who would? anyone?

deknow


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

frazzledfozzle said:


> I'm sorry Barry but I'm not sure what's wrong with the quote you highlighted?


There's nothing wrong with your quote. What's behind your post I take issue with. I see "commercial" beekeepers on this thread getting upset over comments made by a hobby beekeeper. I happen to think some of his comments were on target. It is BAD advice for rrussell to tell another to treat in an illegal manner. This kind of advice lends to the view that commercial beekeepers are lose and reckless with chemicals (which post #10 is evidence of).

There is more than one way to keep bees and I think it does us all good to be clear where each other is coming from when advice is given. rrussell is coming from a breeder/commercial "old school" perspective. Michael Palmer is breeder/commercial as well, but approaches bees in a very different manner. I'm sure I'd never hear him give the advice rrussell gave.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

deknow said:


> ...giving advice to use off label formulations (and doses of coumaphos that will kill mites for 2 years) to a hobbyist with one hive won't help that reputation one bit. (post #28)
> 
> i'm amazed at what people will put in writing. sometimes we have a hard time convincing customers what goes into most beehives.
> 
> ...


Ok now that kind of response is exactly what we were referring to.. terribly mis-informed, twisted words, and purely opinion.

1. "Off-Label" in this case, has undergone hundreds of thousands of dollars in testing for use in beehives and is far more effective and "better for the bees" in the fact that it kills all of the mites in one dose, instead of allowing them to build up immunities to it... lets think about all of the first released chems and what happened there... control of VD??? nope..Stronger VD. Some may be able to wait on better treatments to come around, but not everyone is at that advantage. Also there is LESS coumaphos in this treatment than there is in Checkmite+, so if you want to follow the label so badly, then you would have him use MORE chemicals than I would and for a longer period of time.

2. Anyone who had actually researched this treatment would know full well that it is NOT the AMOUNT of coumaphos that is in the treatment that makes it so effective...it is the method of application. So saying that there is "SO MUCH COUMAPHOS" in the hive is preposterous. In fact there is LESS COUMAPHOS in this method than there is in Checkmite+...

3. We do not sell honey anymore... I instructed him on how to protect his product as well... AND you do not have to eat honey from a hive that ONCE had chemicals in it... EVEN THOUGH it had FAR LESS chemicals in it than the hive that produced the honey that you WOULD eat... Not to mention the fact that the honey that you would NOT eat was produced in a super that was free of treatments and only placed on a treated hive After the treatment had dissipated.

Here we go again... When will people wakeup and come to terms with the fact that large commercial operations are NOT owned by Bayer or any other drug company. We spend HUGE amounts of money, time, and effort to find the BEST METHODS for dealing with pests... and NOT just best for the beekeepers, but BEST FOR THE BEES.

I would like to also add that we have not been in this fight for quite some time, and thus I referred the questioner to seek the advice of someone who would be more up-to-date on regulations... Most of the posters that seem to have so much trouble with the private labs seaking better treatments, do not realise that there were NO treatments that were "aproved" when the threat first arrived.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...i can play flame war with the best of them. in this instance, i see no need (i think it's a first), you have made my case better than i could possibly hope to.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

ok, i have to ask.

do your bees not produce a surplus of honey? ever?

what do you do with the honey if you don't sell it? is it used as bee feed? destroyed? used to make ethanol?

deknow


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

We use double deeps with one medium for winter stores... before making splits we add a second medium to the number of colonies that we will split, then use it to top the split. Thats it... now that doesnt mean that we have treated ALL of our hives this way or anything else... We have not needed to treat at all for quite a few years actually.

We do not extract at all anymore... sticky mess. lol. We used to sell semi loads to kellogs and nebisco each year. When I was young I stayed sticky from frost to frost. lol. Now we just focus more on continuing genetic research and providing the best queens that we can to help further our industry.

I hope you dont take any offense to this back and forth stuff...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

First, let me say I try to be respectful of others' attempts to keep bees. Sometimes folks say things that I find so wrong that I have to speak up. It;s only after a lifetime of trial and error...failure and success that I have opinions. 

So, to clarify what I said Deknow...about the natural, TBH, alternative movement. When someone proposes an alternavive method of beekeeping and shows some degree of success, I listen. I would be a fool not to.

But, when all I hear is BS, opinionated, unsubstantionated bologna, I react.

Now let me give an example. One of the talks at the Leominster conference really offended me. It was about all those nasty, immoral (my words) beekeepers who use Langstroth hives. The speaker went on and on about how the Lang hives are destroying the bees we all know and love. He calls them "Factory" hives. He said we are forcing our bees to live in an unnatural condition. Keeping them as slaves...if you will. Making them work in an unnatural way to produce 50 gallons of honey each. 

Does he really believe that the bees actually care or if it actually matters? I almost raised my hand to say that if a beehive setup would increase my per hive honey production to 50 gallons per colony...then bring it on! Instead I bit my tongue.

Beginning beekeepers are like sponges. They absorb information like blotter paper, but can't properly digest it. They have no way to judge or compare or evaluate what they hear. I would say a number walked away thinking evil Langstroth...no way, no how, never. 

I find it distressing how agriculture has changed over the last couple decades. It used to be community based. Now it's gone corporate. The community has been divided. The corporatate agriculturists have found ways to divide and conquer.

I feel beekeeping is one sector of agriculture that has the chance to maintain that community. Let's not blow it.


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