# How do I know if I caught a swarm or if these are merely robbing bees?



## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

Hi everyone!

I suppose my title says it all:

How do I know if I caught a swarm or if these are merely robbing bees?

Here is what I did:

I built a swarm trap simply using a deep with 4 frames of built up wax on comb. Also, there was a tiny bit of sugar syrup in some comb too. And I rubbed the entire interior of the box with fresh lemon grass from our garden, and the propolis from one of our hives.

Set the trap 3 days ago, about 10 ft. up in a eucalyptus tree.

Came home from work today, and there were lots of bees flying in and out of the hive box.

Is it true, I just caught my very first swarm? Or, is it simply robbing bees having a free feast?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Leave the trap in place for a few days.

Watch to see if any bees are bringing pollen.

If you see that, retrieve trap after a few days more and see if you can see eggs.

Either you've got one, or you haven't, and there's nothing left to do other than wait and see.

Enj.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

enjambres said:


> Leave the trap in place for a few days.
> 
> Watch to see if any bees are bringing pollen.
> 
> ...


Enj,

Thanks for the reply. Ok, I think it is simply robber bees helping themselves to what little sugar syrup I left in two tiny pieces of comb. There were so many bees yesterday that I thought for sure we had captured our very first swarm. 

Today, there are nearly no bees there at all...

So I suppose I had a bad case of wishful thinking!

Not to worry, we'll leave the trap up, hopefully catch a swarm this fall, and if not, wait until the spring. 

I am convinced there are significant numbers of feral hives here in the forest...


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

There are a lot of reports of fall swarms so you might get one yet. I'd leave it up and monitor. Some of those "robbers" may have been scouts. I've had two hives cast small swarms in the last couple of weeks so you have a chance. Good luck.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

GaryG74 said:


> There are a lot of reports of fall swarms so you might get one yet. I'd leave it up and monitor. Some of those "robbers" may have been scouts. I've had two hives cast small swarms in the last couple of weeks so you have a chance. Good luck.


Will do! Thanks for the encouragement Gary!


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Make that three grapefruit sized swarms! I went out to do a last minute check around 6PM and saw a wad of bees on the concrete block under the hive stand and going up the leg of the hive stand. I'm thinking older queen that couldn't fly very well and the swarm clustered right there under the hive. I sat a nuc next to the bees and put a quart of 1:1 syrup on top of it. The bees were moving off the hive stand and onto/in the nuc as it was getting dark. That hive had an older queen, at least two years old, so that may be why they didn't fly off. Maybe I'll get a look at her tomorrow, if they don't leave. I caught 5 or 6 late swarms last year but they were a month earlier than these swarms. Our golden rod, bone set, asters, aggeratum, and thin leaf (thread leaf?) sunflowers are just getting into full bloom--they are later this year also, so that may be why the later swarms. They could be supercedure related also. If I could catch them swarming so I knew which hive they were coming out of, I could check for supercedure cells/virgin queens/newly mated queens.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

It is very unusual to catch a swarm in a bait hive here after June. My season of bait catches this year was 3/10 to 7/1. I had three supercedure swarms after that date and I think only one will become a colony. I never put food in a bait hive other than pollen combs.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

odfrank said:


> It is very unusual to catch a swarm in a bait hive here after June. My season of bait catches this year was 3/10 to 7/1. I had three supercedure swarms after that date and I think only one will become a colony. I never put food in a bait hive other than pollen combs.


Thanks for the info Frank! I will exert more effort and place more traps in March...and, do my best to find some good pollen combs...

We live surrounded by Eucalyptus forest...

Do you think there could be any feral hives here?

Last, 2 miles away, every year, commercial bee keepers place 50-100 commercial hives to pollinate the nut orchards...do I risk capturing any of their hives if I place my traps/lures on our property, 2 miles away?

I prefer to not steal anyone's bees...


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Caught 4 swarms in the same location this year. 
The house was nearly condemned and was a bee magnet plus it's located near a large apiary (s).
Baited it with a comb of honey and some lemongrass oil. The location is everything.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

aunt betty said:


> Caught 4 swarms in the same location this year.
> The house was nearly condemned and was a bee magnet plus it's located near a large apiary (s).
> Baited it with a comb of honey and some lemongrass oil. The location is everything.


Aunt Betty,

Is it possible the swarms you caught came from the apiary?:s


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I prefer to not steal anyone's bees...

You are not stealing. The bees liked your box better than their previous owners and they moved out and into yours.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

>Last, 2 miles away, every year, commercial bee keepers place 50-100 commercial hives to pollinate the nut orchards...do I risk capturing any of their hives if I place my traps/lures on our property, 2 miles away?

I prefer to not steal anyone's bees...<

I would think the commercial beekeepers have a lot more to worry about than a few swarms and where they went. I could be wrong.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

odfrank said:


> >I prefer to not steal anyone's bees...
> 
> You are not stealing. The bees liked your box better than their previous owners and they moved out and into yours.





GaryG74 said:


> >Last, 2 miles away, every year, commercial bee keepers place 50-100 commercial hives to pollinate the nut orchards...do I risk capturing any of their hives if I place my traps/lures on our property, 2 miles away?
> 
> I prefer to not steal anyone's bees...<
> 
> I would think the commercial beekeepers have a lot more to worry about than a few swarms and where they went. I could be wrong.


Interesting...ok, so it is simply a matter of creating a 5 star Hilton and giving the bees a reason to move to a more suitable location?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Once a swarm leaves the box, they are free bees and whoever boxes them becomes the new owner.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

RayMarler said:


> Once a swarm leaves the box, they are free bees and whoever boxes them becomes the new owner.


Yep, the bees don't have titles and registrations BUT YOUR BOXES DO!
Once they're in your boxes they're your bees and that is that.
That's why we have swarm traps at every bee yard and try to prevent them.
Can't catch them all and if you caught one from my yard I'd thank you for keeping it out of my neighbor's attic or chimney.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

I always thought that a hive would not swarm unless there was some issue in their hive.(overcrowding etc.) I don't think they leave just because there is a trap nearby. Had his trap not been near that bee yard I think those bees would have swarmed anyway.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

Ok, thank you very much for bringing clarity regarding bee ownership capturing swarms! I suppose a lot of people place lures/traps right near the apiaries?


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

The "sweet spot" from an apiary is about 600 yards. But some swarms move 3 feet , into the box next to them. Some are last seen flying over the mountain. More effective is to use a good swarm lure pheremone. Or at least good lemongrass oil. Aura Cassia brand works pretty well. Also all the crap left over from cleaning up hives, and all the crud strained from pressing wax from old comb, should be pressed into a block, & heated til you can smear a few big skidmarks onto the roof & 2 or 3 topbars. You' ll save a lot of work by making deep boxes into lure boxes. Place the box in morning sun, with shade past 10 or 11 AM. Bees will pass up a hot ,full sun lure box. I have been swarm lureing for years, this is what works.The comb with honey or sugar will atract big ant swarms. Best avoid any food in there. Re: why they swarm, it's because that's how they reproduce. The swarm lure doesnt need to be way up a tree. I put them on a hive stand or low branch, or set on a ledge or boulder. Face the entry towards sunrise, and avoid full sun. Good luck bee- fishing!


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

Thank you Jadebees! Nice info!

I will make up a few more of the deep boxes to serve as swarm lures in the spring. Yes, I realize now I should not have placed any honey/sugar syrup in the hive at all. Lesson learned.

600 yards? Ok, but the nearest beehive conglomeration is approximately 2000-3000 yards from our home and is placed near the nut orchards every year in Feb. - June. I am still hoping there are a number of feral hives here in the Eucalyptus forest...

Come spring, I suppose we will find out!


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

I hope you get many bees! Don't worry how far you are from an apiary. The closest one to me is about 20 miles. What I get here is very feral. We get varied types, all survivors. I just moved a big swarm lure with black bees to here. The oldtimers here say those have been here over 100 years. Look for good floral resources, water available, and a mix of fields and trees. Or thinly treed country, or meadow edges.When I lived near San Diego, I noticed bees only use 2 or 3 uncommon types of eucalyptus. There's dozens of euc species there.They were not very fond of the big redgums & ********. Actually they don't like many eucs at all. Too bad, most are huge, with lots of flowers. I would think they would live in them, but prefer other food.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I know that Eucalyptus forest, I pulled a swarm out of one of the trees about thirty feet up off the ground one year back almost ten years ago. So, swarms do happen there. Whether they are feral or come from a local hive in the area, I can't say for sure, but suspect they come from local hives in the area.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

jadebees said:


> I hope you get many bees! Don't worry how far you are from an apiary. The closest one to me is about 20 miles. What I get here is very feral. We get varied types, all survivors. I just moved a big swarm lure with black bees to here. The oldtimers here say those have been here over 100 years. Look for good floral resources, water available, and a mix of fields and trees. Or thinly treed country, or meadow edges.When I lived near San Diego, I noticed bees only use 2 or 3 uncommon types of eucalyptus. There's dozens of euc species there.They were not very fond of the big redgums & ********. Actually they don't like many eucs at all. Too bad, most are huge, with lots of flowers. I would think they would live in them, but prefer other food.


Wow Jadebees,

Black bees? Sounds really nice. I remember seeing people here at Bee source post pics of black queens...they really looked nice!

I never thought that bees may not like redgums & ********...dude, maybe I have been building sand castles in the sky for a long, long time...

I have been waiting for these Eucalyptus trees in this large forest to bloom now for 1.5 years...hoping it would provide a marvelous source of nectar and pollen for my hungry bees...now I am hoping I haven't been in dream land all these months!

On the brighter side of things, some type of flow has opened for our bees in the last few weeks, because for the first time in many months, they are super active, flying far away, and coming back with nectar and pollen. I am not sure if it is the star thistle or something else, but they are finally beginning to bring in some goodies.

I did see one of the young Eucalyptus trees in our goat pen beginning to flower...yes, white flowers. But that is only one tree out of literally thousands of trees in this area. 1.5 years ago, we literally saw the entire forest bloom with massive white flowers and the pollen was so thick we had to wear masks daily for 3-4 weeks. It would be a total bummer if the bees will not like those flowers...I suppose we will have to wait and see.

Here, the large majority of the Eucalyptus trees are the ********.

Good news, I am presently doing my homework to plant 5-6 acres of red and/or white flowering clover...hopefully that will help.

My lure/swarm trap is still up in the same tree, not even one bee there now...

Hopefully patience will pay off!


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

RayMarler said:


> I know that Eucalyptus forest, I pulled a swarm out of one of the trees about thirty feet up off the ground one year back almost ten years ago. So, swarms do happen there. Whether they are feral or come from a local hive in the area, I can't say for sure, but suspect they come from local hives in the area.


Hi Ray! Well that certainly is good news! We hope to catch some swarms this spring. I would like to place several swarm lures/traps here. Will keep you posted!


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## limuhead (Feb 15, 2015)

aunt betty said:


> Yep, the bees don't have titles and registrations BUT YOUR BOXES DO!
> Once they're in your boxes they're your bees and that is that.
> That's why we have swarm traps at every bee yard and try to prevent them.
> Can't catch them all and if you caught one from my yard I'd thank you for keeping it out of my neighbor's attic or chimney.


I would have to disagree. You are their landlord if they come into your hives. You don't own them any more than you own the ants or roaches in your house...


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