# Tfish queens in spring hopefully



## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

I have a hive that made it to their 4th summer before I had to treat with oav ( they were throwing a ton of crawlers and dwv). My plan is to graft from this hive next year and make nucs with the capped queen cells. Then I will take them to my in laws property that sits between two out yards of a local commercial treatment free beek. He claims to be treatment free since the 70's. I'm hoping his drones will mate my queens and I will get a little of his genetics mixed in with my good hive. His yards are 1 mile and 1 and a half miles on each side of the property. Does this sound like a reasonable plan? Also (this is more for the commercial guys) should I contact him in advance and let him know my plan and ask his thoughts? Do you think he would want to know or would I just be bothering him? What's the etiquette here? The nucs would only be there until the queens start laying. I don't want to step on any toes and after joining this forum I realize that hobbyists are sometimes frowned upon by the commercial guys. But if he's tf are there really any concerns?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sounds like a good plan to me mcon. if i had someone local to me like that i would try to establish a relationship and see if i could learn a thing or two from him. also, he may be a good source for queens should you not have success with your grafting attempt. on the other hand if i got the impression that he didn't want to be bothered i would just let it ride. placing your nucs at your in laws for mating poses no breach of etiquette.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

Thanks sp. 
-Mike


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I'm not sure I would be propagating queens from a hive infected with DWV. I think it is possible that DWV remains with the bees, possibly even the queen, and may be transmitted congenitally by her to the new queens. 

I am aware of the newest studies regarding different strains of DWV, some more lethal than others.

And I know that mites take DWV to a whole other level, even more damaging than it formerly was, by injecting the virus directly into the bees' hemolyth.

But I have observed that once a colony starts to strongly express DWV, and even after the mites have been taken out of the picture, the colonies headed by new queens from cells of the original one seem to continue a chronic low level of DWV in subsequent years. (Again, this assumes good mite control in the new colonies, though of course these aren't lab conditions.)

One of the risks of allowing an untreated hive to progress to the stage of florid mites and strongly expressed DWV may be that you can't go backwards to a naive state simply be removing the current cohort of mites.

I don't know this, for sure - a deep dive into the biology of DWV is on my winter to-do list. But in my apiary I have one colony like this and that one is OFF my list of potential candidates for breeding, despite the fact that it maintained very low levels of mite parasitization for a couple of years (compared to the other hives on the same stands) and seemed more "resistant" to them. It also has a much lower "take" level of getting queen cells to the virgin stage than my other hives which were treated more aggressively because they had a higher parasitization level early on. 

I know this is the TF forum, so I'm not arguing for treatment, just making the observation that breeding from hives that are already infected with DWV may not be a good thing. And it may be harder, too. I know I wouldn't be interested in buying queens or nucs from colonies that had ever had a serious DWV problem, even if it had been apparently cleared up/controlled by subsequent mite treatment. (Not that I would ever know this, of course, except in the case of my own bees.)

Just something to think about. It may seem like a good thing to propagate from bees that have withstood mites better than others for a time, but if that eventually resulted in the colony becoming infected from a secondary disease (DWV) you may have passed a point of no return.

Enj.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

Thanks for the perspective Enj. That is something I didn't think about at all or really even know it was a possibility. A little bit of a bummer to hear. I enjoy your posts and try to read them all. I've often thought that if anyone could be successful at tf it would be you. I would wager your bees are some of the best cared for around. I do have a split from that colony that I made this year maybe I will use it for grafting. Although since the queen mated here its not really the same but it's somewhere to start o guess.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

If you go to Beeweavers web site he tells you that one of the things he selected for was colony's that didn't show DWV . I got a few of his queens and that's what I saw no DWV.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

If he is willing, I would just buy a nuc or queen from him and propagate from there. If not, getting some of his genetics by setting up at your inlaws would be fine, especially if you followed tf concepts. The benefit of being around a tf keeper who has some success is the transfer of possible symbionts to new hive systems. If he has a benign dwv variant, you probably want that in your hives. Purchasing a nuc from him would be the best way to get them.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@mcon672:

I don't know for a fact that DWV is passed along genetically (as well as being spread through mite bites and possibly through trophylaxis among the bees and to fresh brood). That's one of the things I want to nail down this winter, if possible.

But I did observe that a 2015 colony from a queen cell from the hive that had a DWV problem last year expressed DWV this fall, despite otherwise-satisfactory anti-mite treatment (and a prolonged, double brood breaks) this year, and without it showing up in any other nearby colony. I was shocked to see it. I also had a difficult time getting any queens grown from QCs of this particular colony, despite the fact that the original queen is brood machine. This could also just be bad luck, and of course my own technique, but it was the only colony of the ones I did this year where I had to do multiple rounds to get a single split. Other than that one, I had 100% success in getting naturally mated new queens on every one I tried.

I wouldn't write off this particular line of yours completely, just keep in mind that things had progressed to a serious DWV infection, and even after successful mite treatment the bees may have a residual level of DWV infection.

Since you've already treated this colony, I would suggest that an additional broodless-period OAV treatment might be especially important this year. Not only will it kill off any mites that remained from the earlier treatment, leaving your bees almost mite-free over the winter, but it will also reduce the mite parasitization level to nearly nil when your bees start brooding again in late winter. While your winters aren't as long as mine, you will still have an extended period when there is little risk of re-infestation because flying weather is poor. This gives the earliest rounds of brood a chance to be born and grow up in a nearly mite-free environment so they are strong and healthy when they are raising the rounds of brood that you will be using for splits. It also re-sets (downward) the baseline level of mites to such a low number that I find I can avoid spring treatments altogether, which in turn also removes any treatment/chemical stress just before and during the period I am raising cells for splits and nucs. In some ways, I think the one-shot broodless-period treatment is the most effective, and critical, one of the whole year. 

The other thing I wanted to mention is that if your bees are showing any signs of DWV next spring, I would not move them to a location where they would be close to another TF beek. I doubt the TF beek would thank you for doing that. I think a good deal of the problems facing bees are driven by the fact that we move them around willy-nilly to suit our own goals, spreading diseases and parasites far faster than they would naturally propagate.

Enj.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

I did catch a swarm from the in laws this year that did really well. Maybe that will be the starting point. Just thinking about spring. I probably will reach out to the guy to get his opinion on my plan, he's trying to make a living and im just playing . Thanks again everyone.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Talking to this guy is too good an opportunity to miss so do it. Most likely he will be interested and supportive of your plans, long as he has not been jaded by too many time wasters in the past.

Commercial beekeeping can be busy to the point of pretty stressful at times, and a day can be very tightly organised time wise, family time is precious also. So my suggestion for the initial phone call would be a quick outline of who you are, and state that you are close to him, and why you should talk, then arrange a convenient time for him. Could go something like "Hi my name is XX, this is a courtesy call, I am a small beekeeper with hives near you and am planning to mate some queens near one of your sites. I am interested in treatment free beekeeping. I would like to talk to you for XX minutes, when is a good time for you?" Keep the initial phone call extremely brief so if you did catch him at a bad time he does not start to perceive you as a nuisance before you have even established a relationship.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

Good tips, thanks OT. I will do just that after the holidays. I'll let you guys know how it went.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

have your questions ready though in case he says " well now is just as good as time as any"


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

Well I made contact with the commercial guy yesterday. When I told him my plan and asked his opinion he said he "wasn't crazy about it" and looked a little sour. I told him I would not place hives there since he didn't want them there, like I said I'm just playing this guy is supporting his family. We talked for a while, he told my wife I was trying to get all of his secrets  and then he said that I have come a long way since our last talk almost five years ago now when I got my first bees (a 3lb package) from him. By the time we were done talking he said "I don't have any problems with you placing your nucs at your in laws place. Go ahead and do it". I told him I would have them out by the end of June so we wouldn't have to worry about his hives robbing the nucs out during the dearth. Went well, nice guy.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very cool, glad it worked out for you.


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