# Calm discussion on AHb



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)




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## Drugstore (Dec 6, 2005)

We can only speculate, but I think that hot hives will be requeened and beekeeping will go on as usual.I think that eventually AHBs will get everywhere just like the mites and shb. We might not have as many bareheaded and barehanded beekeepers. Just my opinion.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

My hope is that AHb in the Northeast will be diluted/selected out to the point where it is not a big problem. I guess that's what the Texan and the Mexicans before them had also hoped... Still, I understand that 6 agressive african queens were released in the Midwest over a century ago, and they have not taken over yet. The ABC $ XYZ suggests that part of the problem at San Paulo (sp?) was the scale of the importation.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>6 agressive african queens were released in the Midwest over a century ago

More like a couple of thousand a year for decades.









http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/viciousbee.htm


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

Please let my comments represent 1. new beekeepers 2. who are uneducated in this field.

I think it means I have a duty to constantly monitor the bees for aggressiveness; to begin an inspection protocol when a marked queen is missing and replaced by a new possibly AHB queen. 

I wonder if all we had was africanized bees, after many generations couldn't we breed a gentle honey producer? I think we can manipulate the concept of natural selection even with a AHB. At some point in human history, the wolf was a competitor, possibly a predator of our ancestors, but now we have turned him into a poodle.


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## Murphy (Jun 7, 2005)

Here is some links that cover quite a bit about AHB.
http://www.stingshield.com/lebas.htm

http://www.lawestvector.org/beebiology.htm 

It has a newer map of the spread of AHB. It seems to me with length of time it has taken them to move up from Mexico there would be more detailed info on areas afected. I look at some sites and 1999 was the latest info.

Kieran

[ January 11, 2006, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Murphy ]


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Heres an ARS Magazine article from a couple of years ago thats been posted on BeeSource a time or two before (the map at the bottom is a little outdated now): 

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar04/bees0304.htm


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Come join the fun on the thread, "Let's renovate an Apiary Inspection Program". I'll be glad you did. Thanks,mwb


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

article from a florida paper

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/pbccentral/content/local_news/epaper/2006/01/14/m1a_bees_0114.html


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I once again will ask what should be the obvious question, WHERE ARE THESE QUEENS WE ARE USING TO REQUEEN AHB HIVES COMING FROM????!!!
(capitalized for impact and effect







)

My thoughts:

1) Educate, educate, educate ourselves and each other.

2) Northern Beeks who are wintering in the South will either find ways to successfully winter bees in the north on a large scale or deal with a constant population percentage of AHB.

3) Northern beeks will need to do nucs and requeening in late summer or early fall to possible access to the soon to be non-existance spring, AHB free queen rearing regions in continental US.

4)Many/Most Northern Beeks will need to maintain thier own breed stock of queens due to shortages.

5) Inspectors will have to ask for hazard pay as one by one they get inexplicaply (Mark-sp correction?) stung to death trying to inspect peggjams hives. 

6) after a couple of years of public panic created by the press when a pollintion truck with 1 AHB hive out of 550 flips on I-395 and 300 motorists get stung to death rolling down their windows to yell at the driver for making them late for ****tails, many beeks will go out of the industry and those left will learn to adjust because we are just to opinionated to work pumping gas, our only other qualification. 

[ January 14, 2006, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"5) Inspectors will have to ask for hazard pay as one by one they get inexplicaply (Mark-sp correction?) stung to death trying to inspect peggjams hives. "

But hey.......I bought them bees from that character named Joel.....you know the one.........hangs out on the Beesource website


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## george dilley (Sep 5, 2005)

well i live down here where they first cam into the states and have friends who have been keeping bees for over 18 and 50 years each and they say the AHB is getting calmer ever year here...


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## Amanda2fan (Aug 14, 2005)

At one of the links that was posted above, it mentioned this in case of attack:



> Leave the area quickly if you are attacked by bees. The attack could last until the victim leaves the area. Cover your face using your hands and arms to protect your eyes and mouth from the bees. Seek shelter inside enclosures where the bees cannot enter such as a car, house, tent, or other building.*Do not jump into water for protection.*


Why wouldn't you want to jump into water? I would think if a creek was closer than running to my car, why not?


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Most of the fatalities of AHB stinging incidents (and most other stinging incidents for that matter) that I've read about regretably almost always involve very young children or senior citizens. The presumption is they either don't know enough to run for cover, or can't get away fast enough. Fast approaching Senior Citizenship myself, I take this seriously. One incident I read about involved a young man doing yard work who disturbed an AHB nest. He ran off down the street... passing an old man. The young man got away. The old man was stung so many times he died.

Why wouldn't you want to jump into water for protection? I can only guess that you'd be a sitting duck (sorry) when you finally came up for air. They'd probably just setup a holding pattern and wait for you to surface. I once escaped from a seriously riled up colony of white faced hornets by jumping out of the canoe (don't ask) and giving the canoe a push in one direction while I swam under water in the other direction.

This reminds me of the joke about the 2 men on safari in africa, sitting in camp one day when a tiger comes stalking in. One said "Run! A tiger!" The other man calmly sat down and started putting his sneakers on. The first man cried "What are you doing??? Run! You can't outrun a tiger with those shoes on!" to which the first man replied "No, but I can outrun you..."

Somewhere in there is a moral or if not a moral, then a hint as to a means, if not a particularly honorable one, of escaping an AHB attack.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why wouldn't you want to jump into water? I would think if a creek was closer than running to my car, why not?

As George says they are still there when you come up. Unless you find a way to coast downstream. When I had the psycho buckfasts, I learned one way to get rid of them was run through some brush (not sticker bushes) I have two cedar trees close together but you can get between them. If I ran between them I could loose the ones chasing me. I learned the trick watching the horse get rid of flies in the summer.


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## Amanda2fan (Aug 14, 2005)

Interesting! Didn't realize they would outwait you...little stinkers.

Michael, what problem did you have with your Buckfasts?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

For 25 years, none. Then the second year after I got the queens, all four hive swarmed in the same week, in a drought in August and then all four hives went psycho. Would hunt me down several hundred yards away several days after working the hives and sting me. Pour out of the hives when you even got close to the BACK of the hive. Follow you forever. No fun.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

]But hey.......I bought them bees from that character named Joel.....you know the one.........hangs out on the Beesource website]

YEEEIKES!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hey y'all. My son marshall is on a squirts level hockey team. He plays defense. He scored his first goal today. From the blue line. Unfortunately, I was in a meeting, getting elected President of the bored.

Joel brought up hazard pay. This was something that I thought about last Sept. when our pal ls made his announcement.

In a normal days work as an Apiary Inspector, it is not unusual to get stung many times per hive. No gloves allowed. So, in an apiary of 40 hives, one probably would expect to get stung, at least 40 times. But it's more like 100 times per 40 hive apiary. It is not uncommon, and for some it is habitual, to work 2 or 3 yards like that in a day. With some small apiarys in between.

So it is established that to get stung 100 times in one apiary is probably normal. Times two = 200, plus a couple of small apiaries. So you see, stings are normal for Apiary Inspectors.

So, what happens when an Inspector trys to make a Workers Compensation Claim after getting stung 100 or 200 times at once where the stingers can't be gotten to? He goes to the hospital for treatment and is told not to go back to work again. 

Do you suppose that the Workers Compensation Lawyer is going to let the Judge award that inspector anything? Maybe the hospital costs and treatment costs.

Any other State employee taking stings like that on the job would probably get quite a bit. In my opinion.

What do you think?

While I'm on the subject of Workers Comp. If one person knew that someone else was using an illegal and potentially dangerous chemical in the second person's beehives and didn't warn anyone, what would you call that? And let's say that an Apiary Inspector went into the second persons beehives and received a chemical burn from some substance that was contacted in those treated beehives. Is anyone at fault? Who?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No takers?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

The numbers don't add up in the regular season since NY only inspects 10% of hives. I often work a yard of 25 hives with no gloves and get no stings. Of course my bees are familiar with my smell (my wife would say stench after a couple of hours in the heat with a beesuit on)

{Do you suppose that the Workers Compensation Lawyer is going to let the Judge award that inspector anything? Maybe the hospital costs and treatment costs}

Completely wrong approach, if you want to make it off the government act stupid and get SSI for being learing disabled. I deal with tons of these folks every week, what a racket! I see 2 or 3 in a house taking in 800-1100 each a month. Heck they'd probably by you bees for therapy. It's what John refered to as entitlement!

{


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Mark,

I believe if I had a job that required getting stung by bee's 200+ times in a day I'd quit









Dave


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Hi Joel, 10%? No, I think that you must be mixed up between what is inspected to issue an interstate transport permit and regular inspections.

THe number of colonys inspected this year was over 20,000. I don't have the number of yards inspected in my head. But 20,000 plus colonies was what was reported at the ESHPA meeting.

Well, maybe I'm clumsy, because it seems like i can't work a hive without getting stung, at least once or twice. So, maybe my numbers were high, on average. But the question is still real.

But mostly the last one.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

(No, I think that you must be mixed up between what is inspected)

I'm not even a little confused, #1 inspector this year told me he knew nothing about interstate inspections and referred me to #2 who could not inspect me who refereed me #3 (now that's confusing), well at any rate, #1 who's never ( and still hasn't) conducted a migratory inspection said they only inspect 10% of any hives,. Possibly someone should see if #1 us confused. Now I don't doubt what you say is accurate, please be assured it's not me that's confused!


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## Blue.eyed.Wolf (Oct 3, 2005)

Fordguy asked a question about breeding down the AHb into gentiler bees. I had wondered the same thing. Do we know how mean the ancesters of our bees were when man first started working with them?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

BEW,

Its thought that the African bees became much more aggressive over the last 30 to 40 thousand years as a result of depredations by human beings. Add in the impact of honey badgers and various birds that love to dine on honeybees and you wind up with survival of the most vicious bees on earth.

There have been several programs to breed a gentler Scutellata. Most failed because there are just too many linked traits such as absconding, queen mauling, and swarming.

Fusion


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joel, I understand now what you are refering to, I believe. And I think that you may be refering to someone who is not coming back next season. 

If you had an interaction, of some sort, with the person who I think you are refering to, I feel for you. 

You and all beekeepers of New York deserve better "service" then that, IMO.

Policies in reference to procedures, such as number of colonies to inspect in a yard, are not written in stone. That is being worked on.

The policy has been, for some time now, that if you go to a yard, you inspect all of the colonies in that yard. 

This makes sense on different levels. We used to do a percentage until we had a case in which I inspected a yard of 20 or 24 colonies and missed the AFB that the beekeeper knew was there. 

Boy was that embarassing. It's even embarassing saying it here. 

So, my personal policy changed and the general overall policy changed. 

It also doesn't make sense to drive all that distance and only do partial inspections. Not very efficient use of inspectors time and travel expenses. We need a better hive per mile ratio of production.

I hope that clears things up, some what. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. I've told you about more effective squeaking techniques, right? And you know that if you don't get the service you want at the quality you deserve, you can call me.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Fusion, I don't know what you know but, 30 or 40 thousand years of "depridations by human beings"? I had to look up that word, depredation, to find it's meaning. 

For the vocabulary empaired like me, my dictionary says,"a preying upon or plundering; robbery; ravage."

What about other critters who we have preyed on over the span of man's existence? Have they become more fiercely defendant or aggresive?

To Wolf's question, I remembered reading or hearing that Mexico had,and may still have, more colonies per square mile than anywhere else in the Americas. 

The hope was that the AHbs aggressive tendencies would be diluted when they encountered this density of EHb hives. 

I don't think that the outcome hoped for came to fruition. But, maybe it did, partially. I don't know. There are folks more knowlegable and more experienced than I, that's for sure. They should be answering your question.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It seems to me that only two approaches have been used with AHB. Attempts to eradicate them by killing all the ferals, leaving a vacuum for the AHB to fill or simply accepting them and not trying to water them down. People keep trying to keep their stock pure EHB which is failing I haven't seen anywhere that is actually taking the approach of trying to water down the AHB with EHB genetics. I can't say it will work. Only that I don't see where it's actually been tried.

If you simply keep breeding from calmest and best ferals around, killing only the mean ferals that are around, while bringing in EHB stock to try to keep "watering" it down maybe you will succeed at a bee that will be workable and survive.

[ January 21, 2006, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Michael Bush ]


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

In another thread someone mentioned a documentary on AHB on Discovery channel last night
I watched some of it and they made reference to such a program in Mexico
I believe they said they got bees that are good producers and 1/3 less aggresive
not much detail, you'd think a documentary on AHB would kinda focus on that wouldn't you??
I guess they were to busy showing pics of the little old lady who got 400 stings  

Dave


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

NY State Apiary Inspection to loose about half of it's workforce, due to Ethics Committee Ruling.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>AFB that the beekeeper knew was there

So what you're saying is the beekeeper was purposely trying to have AFB in his yard and hide this from you?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No, but I was not notified that it was there before I did my inspection. I don't believe that anyone was trying to have AFB in their yard.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

But if he knew it was there wouldn't he remove it, rather than hide it?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It wasn't hidden. I had talked to him about doing some inspections on his yards. He didn't say anything about the AFB colonies.

I don't know his reasons for it still being there when I did the inspection. I don't remember if I knew the reasons why he still had it there. It was taken care of in a timely fashion, after I re-did my inspection and took samples for lab analysis. The beekeeper and I were in agreement as to it's being AFB, so he didn't wait for any further lab confirmation or instruction from Albany.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael, How would you suggest trying to water down the AHb caracteristics with EHb?

I saw what you wrote above. But what would the details of such a program be?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, How would you suggest trying to water down the AHb caracteristics with EHb?

I haven't tried to come up with a plan. It just occurs to me that what has been tried will never accomplish it. If you keep killing anything with AHB genes in it then you'll be constantly killing the only link you have to get there. Contantly killing all the feral bees seems like a bad plan all the way around and it's what is usually done as a reactionary plan.

Besides, if I came up with a plan, what's the likelyhood anyone would be interested in implementing it?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Perhaps no one would. But you could do it yourself, perhaps.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

<Besides, if I came up with a plan, what's the likelyhood anyone would be interested in implementing it?>

How painfully true.

I have a question though. Has anyone observed an AHB swarm depart it's home hive? If so, do they cluster like EHB's do, or do they already know where they are going. How could you tell a clustered swarm was AHB. I assume that they gorge on honey and hence can't sting as well until they have disgorged the honey at their new home, so how would you know wether it was AHB?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Perhaps, you couldn't tell if it was AHb or not untill they have established themselves on comb, as a living unit.

I guess though, that you could collect a sample of fifty bees and get your State Apiary Inspection Program to send them off for testing.

Then again, if they don't exist, your on your own. So, you'd have to send them somewhere yourself. Which, of course, you could do anyway. 

But, if you don't have a state Apiary Inspection program, maybe USDA would include your data in their file for future possible action. Who knows?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My guess is they're still doing a FABIS test and my guess is they are declaring small cell bees AHB. I'm not saying there isn't any such thing, just that I haven't seen any clear evidence that anyone can actually tell.

I keep coming back to the fact that I think we ALL agree hot bees are not what we want. The bees you find may be EHB but if they are really nasty do we want to keep them around? If they are nice and MIGHT have some AHB genes, is that a good enough reason to try to eradicate them? Eradication hasn't worked yet.

I'm still not convinced that they have an actual test at all. What's the baseline for a mDNA for an AHB? Some hot little bee from somewhere of unknown origin? Or some Scuttella from Africa?

What's the baseline for wing veins? What's the basline for "size" for the FABIS test?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I've been trying to get those questions answered too. Ms. Mona Chambers hasn't replyed yet. I'll check with other sources.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I was at the Vermont Beekeepers Association Meeing a couple of days ago. I talked to three people about the FABIS test. If I understand them correctly, how FABIS is done is that wing lenghth of the bees sampled is measured. If the wing lenghth is shorter than a certain measurment(sorry, I should write these things down) the probability of being AHb is greater. So, if the wing lenghth is really short, then the probability is higher.

If the measured wing lenghth is longer, then the sampled bees are of a higher probability to be EHb.

The numbers are of a statistical probability nature.

Tony Jadzack, Maine State Apiarist, says that he has done these measurings himself. It seems to me that Apiary Inspectors could be trained to do this sort of work. To veify their findings another lab, such as USDA-Tucson, could be usd.

No one talked about cell size measurment.

Further measurements have to do with wing vein angles.

More later.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It sounds like small cell bees would likely get classified as likely to be AHB.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

My understanding of FABIS is a little different than what's been presented here. I'll confess that I have no real experience with a FABIS test, so I hope that someone who has performed testing can chime in here with more accurate information.

As I understand the test, FABIS is simply a way to dtermine whether or not to do further testing. If the tested bees are all really large ("commercial size"), the chances of them being AHB are so small that it's a waste of time and money to do further testing on them. On the other hand, FABIS doesn't demonstrate whether or not small bees are AHB, just sets a guideline for further testing, such as morphometrics or DNA. FABIS tests don't show that small ("natural") bees are AHB, just that they need further testing to determine whether or not they are AHB. 

The morphometrics tests generally seem to rely on differences in wing-vein geometry (angles between veins, shapes of cells in the wing veination, etc.).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I just got off the phone with Mona Chambers in Tucson, AZ. Once I have digested my notes, and maybe I should wait for the papers that she promised me, I'l have more to say about these tests.

I can say that they are more complex than has been stated here. Yes, it is an indicator of the need or lack of need for further testing. Roughly, if FABIS says probability EHB, then no further testing. If FABIS indicates probability toward Non-European, then full morphometric testing is indicated.

Gotta go. Will be gone for a couple days. Looking forward to more discussion and education.


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## BeeTeach (Nov 10, 2005)

Does anyone have the article(s) of the finding of AHB in New York?


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## george dilley (Sep 5, 2005)

i went to the bee lab in weslaco texas last year and i was informed that they have about 100 ahb hives down here that they do studies on


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

And how do they know they are AHB and not feral EHB?


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## george dilley (Sep 5, 2005)

all i can go by is what the man told me out there they keep them near an air base down here called morefield air base large wooded tracts of land near farms fields


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## Dana (Mar 26, 2005)

If AHB take over a large cell hive won't they become large bees and not be detected by FABIS?

[ January 27, 2006, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Dana ]


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I suppose AHB would become large bees if they "took over" a hive with commercial-size cells. (I'm not sure "detected" is the right word for describing results from FABIS tests; I think "identified as possible AHB" would be a better description.)

I'm not sure how often AHB actually usurp EHB hives anyway. I know some reports have demonstrated that it can happen, but I believe managed colonies are much more likely to become AHB through interbreeding (queen mated with AHB drones in an open mating system). These bees, I suppose, would be large bees if they were raised on large cell comb.

I think the assumption that makes FABIS useful in these sorts of situations is that bees will be subjected to FABIS as soon as the beekeeper discovers a hive has become "hot." I would also suppose that most beekeepers would requeen a particularly hot hive or even depopulate it if necessary, so it would be unlikely that large bees would ever be AHB. If they were gentle enough that the beekeeper never requeens, should we even really worry about whether they're AHB or not?

I don't know how people who actually rely on testing for AHB regard FABIS, but I think of it as a fast way to determine whether or not further testing is necessary. It's not 100% accurate, some cases could be suspect AHB when they're actually EHB, some cases could be subjected to no further testing when in fact they are AHB. I think the idea is to save time and money while still identifying AHB as such with a reasonable amount of certainty/uncertainty.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*<<Besides, if I came up with a plan, what's the likelyhood anyone would be interested in implementing it?>

How painfully true.

I have a question though. Has anyone observed an AHB swarm depart it's home hive? If so, do they cluster like EHB's do, or do they already know where they are going. How could you tell a clustered swarm was AHB. I assume that they gorge on honey and hence can't sting as well until they have disgorged the honey at their new home, so how would you know wether it was AHB?>*

From observations of some swarms in my area, supposedly AHB -- they gorge, they cluster, they are extremely defensive, even when freshly clustered and often even when they are airborne.

[ January 27, 2006, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Clemens ]


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Thanks Joseph, that was what I was wondering.


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

Howdy everyone. I'm a beekeeper down here in Honduras. I've been working with africanized bees for the last 15 years. All my hives come from ahb swarms.

When the hives swarm they just about always leave the box/nest and cluster nearby (within a couple yards). Then, usually within an hour, they'll take off again and cluster further away, several hundred yards at least. They stay there until they find a new nest. It can be from one to three days usually.

I've never seen an ahb swarm go directly from its old hive and into a new box. I've also never noticed that an ahb swarm has moved into one of my existing hives, even one that has been small or weak.

My experience with ahb swarms is that they are not defensive. I always hang several trap hives in my back yard. If I hear a swarm moving into one of the boxes (or a swarm coming out of a hive) I'll get right into the middle of them and watch them. They have never attacked me. They just want to move into the box. I've even done this jumping out of the hammock wearing just a pair of shorts.

The same happens when I shake a swarm out of a tree and into a box. They are just interested in forming another cluster. They don't directly attack me. I might get two or three stings but it's usually because I accidently touch or rub one of the bees that has landed on me the wrong way. 

I can usually work my new hives with out them getting ornery. They usually start to get a bit more vicious when they have just about a full box of comb (10 combs)and the bees that would go with a hive of that size. 

Based on this, it might be difficult to tell in the beginning if your hive has ahbs or ehbs by just looing at their temperment. You might have to wait until it has grown some.

Lately I haven't been wearing a full bee suit, just one or two extra shirts and the veil/gloves. We're right in the middle of the floration season down here so all the hives are strong, but lately not overly ornery. My hives are on a coffee plantation. I can walk twenty yards into the coffee plants and be able to remove my veil. All the bees have been left behind. I can return within a half hour and the vast majority of the hives are calm again. Very few bees stay flying around.

I have had other apiaries, however, in different zones, and I needed to walk at least 200 yards before I got rid of the last bee. Or I reach the apiary and they start to sting me without me having touched them. The ahb's temperament can be real variable. Just to be on the safe side, the apiary (with large/strong hives) can't be near a residence. 

I don't think I would ever work a strong ahb hive without gloves though. For me, gloves (and a veil) are a must.

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Tom


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"My hives are on a coffee plantation. I can walk twenty yards into the coffee plants and be able to remove my veil. All the bees have been left behind. I can return within a half hour and the vast majority of the hives are calm again. Very few bees stay flying around."

Would you say these hives are much gentleier than the ones you have worked in the past? Do you feel that "some" of the aggsiveness has been bred out of them, or is it just that you pick the right time of day to work them?

"I have had other apiaries, however, in different zones, and I needed to walk at least 200 yards before I got rid of the last bee. Or I reach the apiary and they start to sting me without me having touched them. The ahb's temperament can be real variable. Just to be on the safe side, the apiary (with large/strong hives) can't be near a residence."

Would you say that these hives were just plain old ugly AFB hives? Or do they have periods when you can work them without the fullblowen aggressiveness shown by tipical AFB hives?

Maybe you have some useful genitics in that gentle AHB hives, interesting..........


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Tom, Thanks for that great information. I hope you stick around, we are jsut facing AHB in much of the US and your input and experaince are extremely valuable.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Tom, Thanks for that great information. I hope you stick around, we are just facing AHB in much of the US and your input and experaince are extremely valuable.


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

Howdy everyone.

In some ways the africanized bees down here do seem to be getting more gentle. I'm not real sure why though. Their behavior, however, can be real variable.

In my present apiary the bees have been relatively gentle. I can walk around the hives without equipment and check the activity at the entrances. They don't come pouring out of the hives when I do this. And like I mentioned in my other post, I need to walk just a little ways when I'm finished working them and I get rid of the last bee. Bees might be flying around in the air but for the most part they aren't trying to attack. These bees return and the hive settles down relatively quickly.

In the past (about seven years ago) I have had apiaries where the hives have gotten really aggressive, to the point where I had to close up the hive and leave. There were too many stinging my gloves, bouncing off my veil, and I started to worry that people walking along the highway might get a sting, even though it was about 100 yards away.

One of the reasons that I definitly think helps is the top bar hives I am currently using. A closed system like this seems to help immensely to control the bees. All my prsent hives are in top bar hives, both the kenyan and tanzinanian types. When I work the tbhs, the bees tend to run down to the other end as I advance in the revision of the combs. You also have to constantly use smoke. Without smoke you definitly can do anything.

The bees that I mentioned that got real agressive were in standard Langstroth boxes. These boxes are too "opened up". There's too many places for the bees to come out. It can get especially bad when you take off one box to look into the one below it. 

But there are other beekeepers in the area who use Langstroth equipment and they say their bees have been gentle. One of them even has his 60 hives within fifty yards of his house and hasn't had a problem (I myself would not do that. Too risky. Better safe than sorry.)

The time of the day also (normally) plays a factor in their agressiveness. Generally you don't want to touch them on a cloudy day or when it's getting dark. 

But there are exceptions to this. Last weekend we were forced to check the hives on a cloudy day and they weren't really that bad. It even got a bit foggy for a while. And then there have also been sunny days during the floration with past apiraries were they have gotten very ornery.

Elevation might also play a factor in gentleness, but I'm not sure. Some beekeepers down here say that hives at a high altitude stay calmer. That's true with my present apiary which is at about 1200 meters. And these other beekeepers have their apiaries at more or less the same elevation also. But the other apiary that I said would get out of control was at the same elevation and with the same vegetation. It was proably within twenty mile from the one I have now.

The bees down in the valley (600 meters above sea level) seem to be more agressive. That's been my experience in the past (although it's been about eight years since I have had a full apiary here. I can't say if things are really changing.). Other beekeepers have commented the same. The odd thing is that the weather in the valley is much more favorable for working bees than the weather in the mountains. Mountains could be cloudy while the valley is sunny.

So far the time of the year hasn't made a difference in the temperament of my present hives. They have behaved the same during the dearth and floration periods.

There has been no program to breed a gentler africanized bee here in Honduras. It would be rare the person who might have queens that are a cross between the ahb and ehb (although I hear that in Guatemala and El Salvador they are doing some experiements with them and selling them. The cost of them is really expensive for the vast majority of beekeepers however.) I don't think most beekeepers here look at gentleness when making splits. They probably look more at which hives have a good population. A lot of beekeepers also use swarms and who knows exactly where they're coming from.

To sum things up, their teperament can be real variable. You always have to stay on the side of caution with the location of the apiaries and when working them. Like I said, better safe than sorry.

Right now I'm real happy with the hives I have. I'm starting a second apiary, however, lower down the mountian, at about 800 or 900 meters. It's halfway between the present apiary and the valley floor. Most of the hives are still small but one or two are starting to get large. I need to ckeck them this afternoon. Maybe I'll have something different to tell you tonight.

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Tom


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>The bees that I mentioned that got real agressive were in standard Langstroth boxes. These boxes are too "opened up". There's too many places for the bees to come out.

Would you say that modifying the hive would help the aggression? Perhaps a year round reduced enterence? Drapped towel over the hive top when working the brood nest?


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"Would you say that modifying the hive would help the aggression? Perhaps a year round reduced enterence? Drapped towel over the hive top when working the brood nest?"

I should think if the bees take longer to get out of the hive, your perception of aggessiveness would be lower. I wonder though if their arn't some genes in these AFB hives that might become useful if they continue to be "gentlier"?????????


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

Howdy everyone.

The hives in the second apiary are acting just like the ones in the first apiary. They were gentle and they didn't cause me any undue problems when revising them. But then they are also all new hives so I expected them to act gentle. They all have ten combs or less so they aren't that strong yet.

I did notice one thing though. One of the hives happens to have seven standard langstroth-type frames (it was an old trap hive that bees finally moved into.) They were definitly a bit more difficult to control than the others. My wife was helping me and she had to use more smoke with them. (but at the same time they didn't get out of control.)

Like I said in my last post, being able to keep a limited area opened up definitly seems to help control the ahbs. The space I open up when working the tbhs is that of two or three top bars. Having the long top bar box also seems to help because they like to run down to the other end that is dark and closed up. With this hive that had the lang. frames they all wanted to start coming out the top. 

The towel on one half of the langs. box would probably help. Reducing the entrance might also help (but as long as it doesn't limit their foraging activity). But again, like I mentioned, langs boxes are just a lot more complicated than long top bar boxes in controling these bees.

On an added note. As long as I can keep smoke on them I can work them just fine (in the tbhs). If I would open one up without smoke or one would fall over or a cow would kick it there would probably be a big problem. And it's true also that noise likes to trigger them off. Cutting the weeds in the apiary with the machete has caused me big problems in the past.

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Tom


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

>I wonder though if their arn't some genes in these AFB hives that might become useful if they continue to be "gentlier"?????????<

It definitely seems like this should be true. Africa is a huge continent full of truly wild, naturally selected bees. I would think that aside from extreme aggression, African bees must have many other novel traits.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

it just something that with all the crossing breeding with EHB's, it hard to believe that the agressive trait will always be dominate.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

TWT,
I will show a scale in an upcoming Florida AHB article for ABJ which will explain.
The drones are the problem. Queen breeders in Texas have figured out an F1 AHB drone open mating is usually not noticed by the beekeeper (unless AHB genetics are allready in the queen) . Once established and superceded then the percent of AHB increases. Takes a couple years till you really get some hot hives.


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## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

Bob, some people report this in Brazil too. They "import" mated italian or carniolan queens, then sell their F1 daughters after being open mated. They claim their queens (and progeny) are a lot more gentle than most AHBs, and it's probably right. I've tried carniolans produced this way in the past, and they were really docile, although unproductive.

João


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"it just something that with all the crossing breeding with EHB's, it hard to believe that the agressive trait will always be dominate."

I'm gonna say this tonge in cheek, I don't think there has been enough crossing of genes between AHB and EHB that would allow for a true test of wether they will always be aggressive. Lots of matings between EHB queens and AHB drones, but how many between EHB drones and AHB queens? This may take more crossings than one would consider "normal" to make a useful bee.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Joao,
Beekeepers need to stop comparing what is going on in Brazil with AHB to other areas.

Many times it is like comparing apples to oranges.
Let me be the first to say that all AHB are not the same.

The south Florida AHB are more like what was first released in Brazil rather than what we find in Texas & Arizona. A quarter percent AHB can be worked. A half is hot but still workable if kept in remote areas. Three quarter needs caution and full (100%) AHB is in most cases unmanageable for commercial beekeeping.

A yard with quarter percent AHB from a queen brreder will change into some hot bees over a couple years if left alone and herein lies the problem. Supercedure & inbreeding raise the AHB level. ( the terms quarter, half. three quarter & full are mine only to simplfy the issue)

In Florida the inspection service is able to tell through DNA the ratio between the percent of AHB & aggresion.

The problem is DNA tests take three days and are expensive. They are used mainly for serious stinging incidents and for a teaching tool for inspectors. Fabis and morph (by computer) are easy but are only as good as the sample used to compare.
Morph is the prefered test in Florida for step one and many are done every day by the Florida AHB expert.
I have watched the whole Fabis & morph test done.
Pictures will be in article. The test has room for operator error but will not miss a 75% to 100% scutellata.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Rob, Good to have you back, hope you enjoyed your travels!

I see in the Florida article that they are swarm trapping near the ports. I know this was being done in the 1990's. Have they been trapping all this time and this is the 1st. result or is it a matter that the bees infiltrated and then trapping started again. In your opinion Is it likely they have been around for more than the past year or are we looking at a sudden quick influx. This seem fast in comparision to the spread elsewhere if it is, do you think this rate will continue. Do you think if it is a sudden influx is it related to the higher purity of the AHB's. Finally, is your post sayint we would be more accurate since we are looking at pure scutella to look at what happenen in the 1950's - 60's in Brazil for a model of at least the Eastern outbreak?

[ January 30, 2006, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Joel,
Florida has been quiet about the problem for a long time. After recent stinging incidents and the LaBelle problem they have come clean. They were completely honest with me.
To but things bluntly you could draw a line from Tampa to Orlando and AHB genetics could be found in most feral swarms south.
Many samples are testing 100% "scut", showing all signs of aggression, swarming around 16 times a year, running on frames and smoke has no effect.
The beekeepers which are having the most AHB problems are beekeepers catching and bringing home feral swarms. 
I am about done with my artcle on shipments to California from Florida and need to get back to work. Hope to finnish today. 
The AHB article is complicated due to the volumes of material I brought back from Florida. Hope to get done later in the week. 
I will be in the field tomorrow checking hives and we have got a load headed to California this week. We had a Midwestern Beekeepers board meeting yesterday and the boys said hives are getting light with all the warm weather. I need to check.
talk later,
Bob


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

It would seem that the genetric attributes that make the AHB more successful in mating, superceding and overtaking existing hives are not necessarily the same genetic attributes that make them agressive.

These attributes give AHB superior mating success accounting for the dilution of EHB by AHB traits rather than the opposite.

This would suggest that selection and planned subspecies AI crosses would need to select for a bee with the succesful mating attributes but lacking the defensiveness. These mating attributes include drone numbers, queen and drone flying speed, flying height, mating flight time of day and season, not to mention the colony survival aspects. 

Wouldn't you essentially be selectively breeding for low levels of trigger and alarm pheromone sensitivity while preserving all other traits? At that point you might have a cross bee that could successfully compete in the wild and might have a chance of impacting the feral populations.

[ January 30, 2006, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: wfarler ]


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"Beekeepers need to stop comparing what is going on in Brazil with AHB to other areas."

Sorry Rob, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. AHB has been in Brazil far longer than the US, and saying that there is nothing that we can learn from Brazil's expericances is total misinformation. There is something that has happened to their AHB's that can be useful here when dealing with ours. If those hives are indeed as Tom describes, those genes are very useful to us, and we would be foolish not to look into it.


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

To Joao Campos in Brazil (and any other beekeepers in or with experience in South/Cental America or Mexico.

I'm interested in knowing (and maybe others also) if what I'm seeing in my hives is an isolated thing or if this is happening in other places in Latin America. Maybe you could describe a bit about how your pure AHBs are behaving and if there has been any change in temperment over the years. Do the AHBs act differently in the different regions in your country? Have you noticed anything that makes the AHBs more docil in one area and not in another?

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Tom


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Going further South would also be interesting to hear about. Does Argentina have high levels of scutella? If so, I heard that they used to have relatively gentle Iberian bees? Are they all hybrids now?


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Going further South would also be interesting to hear about. Does Argentina have high levels of scutella? If so, I heard that they used to have relatively gentle Iberian bees? Are they all hybrids now?


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Peggjam,
It has been 49 years since the Kerr release. The situation in Brazil now is not as it was in the ten years after the release. Nor the 20 years after the release. Nor the 30 years after the release. Nor the 40 years after the release. 
In short 26 queens were released at first. tens of thousands of European queens have been imported and tens of thousands of hot hives have been either requeened or eliminated in the last 49 years.
The lession is after 49 years things will mellow out. 
The situation is very different in South Florida. Beekeepers need education on the AHB subject. Many are totally unprepared and have no idea what they are dealing with.

In Florida we are dealing with pure " scut" just arrived in the best guess the last ten years. 

The best guess is at least 10 times the number of pure "scut" queens which Dr. Kerr released are in the area now. The Florida apiary inspection service and their AHB expert Mr. Alfredo Platinetty think each pure "scut" swarm is putting out around 16 small swarms. AHB do not usually swarm this much but pure "scuts" do.

Do the math?

I have no agenda or as they say "have a horse in the race". My only mission is to paint a true picture of each subject I do articles on. you can believe what you want Peggjam but please read my future ABJ article with an open mind , look at the scale showing how AHb takes over when beekeepers do nothing and then do the math.

Jerry Hayes and I both believe Florida beekeepers need to be educated on AHB. Controls need to be enforced or the next ten years will look like the first ten years of AHB release in Brazil 1957-1967.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"The lession is after 49 years things will mellow out."

I'm not knocking you Rob, I'm just saying that to dismiss as not worth an effort out of hand what Tom is saying is senseless.

If we were to say that you are absoultly right, and it will take 49 years for things to mellow out, why not use what has already occured in the past 49 years in Brazil to our advantage. There must be a crossbred in Brazil that can successfully mate with "pure scuts", and decearse the aggressiveness of them. Since the AHB is already in FL, would it not be a bad idea to import some of these gentlier AHB's to start dilueting the genepool of the "pure scuts"??????? Which might cross better with our EHB strains and futher reduce the aggressiveness of these "pure scuts". It certainly is better than saying that there is no hope for the next 49 years..............am I the only one who sees the potentinal?????????


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## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

> tens of thousands of European queens have been imported and tens of thousands of hot hives have been either requeened or eliminated in the last 49 years. The lession is after 49 years things will mellow out


Let's think a little before jumping into personal observations. Let's even ignore how much african mtDNA was found in Brazil since the early 90's, and the gradient of "africanization" that was determined later.

Take a look at some book on beekeeping. You'll probably find there a chart of the Americas, with several arrows showing the spread of africanization, starting in São Paulo and ultimately reaching US. Maybe that image biases your thoughts on AHB moves.

Do you think it's reasonable that the flow is one way only? That bees behave like a cloud of grasshoppers? Of course not.

Think about the first AHBs that got settled in Panama, for example. Why would they take only the North way when swarming or absconding? They keep no travel log, so any direction can be suitable, maybe according to the current season. Wouldn't some take the way "back" to Brazil? Why not?

Of course we keep extremely (I mean it) bad tempered bees once in while. Probably more often in the dry, tropical regions. But, if beekeepers can endure a hot hive, they can do the same with a very hot one, at least for a while. Some beekeepers may even like this behavior, to avoid theft, and also because there's a (folk?) association between productivity and aggressiveness. 

And what about the "mellowed" bees? Are they not "pure sucts" anymore? Maybe. Maybe not. Kerr noticed that some colonies he brought here were more bad tempered than others. The one from Tanzania was especially mean (I like to think of my hottest bees as the "Tanganyika Girls"







). This means that even the original scuts may have shown more variability than we think - perhaps as much as we see today.

Of course any country has its own peculiarities and a different situation. But the AHBs are the same, although the perception of them does change in time. Maybe the first impact is worse just because of its novelty and people's unawareness. 

Dewey Caron said few "old" beekeepers could adapt, and no country so far could recover from africanization before the second generation of beekeepers took control. I really don't expect the same to happen in US, despite some specific difficulties you have to deal with. And I still think that past and current experiences can be of some help.

João


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## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

> ... if what I'm seeing in my hives is an isolated thing or if this is happening in other places in Latin America.


Maybe the general perception is the same, but were the bees that changed or the beekeepers that got adapted to them? I think our tolerance level increases a lot after some years keeping AHBs. Once you lose the fear and got more skilled with them, things improve a lot.

Personally, I only see a lot of variability, in every trait. I can't perceive a convergence towards a standard race, although many people here claim that. I keep AHBs since 1987. My meanest hive ever I got only 3 years ago. 

I think you experience the same variability, and your message could have been written by any brazilian beekeeper.



> Do the AHBs act differently in the different regions in your country?


I'm sure of that. There's a study where the researchers evaluated some colonies in subtropical and tropical areas, and the same colonies behaved very differently in each area. 



> Have you noticed anything that makes the AHBs more docil in one area and not in another?


Several studies have correlated behavior with ambiental conditions, like temperature, humidity, altitude, solar coverage, winds, etc. I've read that, in Bolivia, some high-altitude areas got totally africanized without the beekeepers realizing that.

But, again, the high variability usually prevents you from being too predictive. I feel exactly what you said: in cloudy, windy days I alaways expect a lot of trouble, but once in while things go smoothly in such conditions, to my complete surprise. 

João


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

Joao, thanks for the comments.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Rob, Where's should I look for your upcoming article?


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Joel,
I am sending the article on the Florida/California
semi loads tomorrow and the article should be in the March issue of ABJ as space was held for the article (pictures were sent Monday). 
I needed to send one or the other article and the above was easier for me to send to fill the space the magazine was holding. 
I looked at bees all day today and will tomorrow and most likely finnish Thursday. Thinking of trucking some down on the Gulf to build up as California said they do not need these hives so I need to get an idea of condition. Problem is they need to come back in a month for apples. 
When you make a living from bees (which you know as well as I do Joel) the bees come first. These bees were headed to California so they look good but a month on the coast would make for a better split in April.
I plan to get busy on the AHB/Florida article as soon as I decide my next move and the load which is headed for California is loaded Thursday or Friday.
My best guess is the April issue of ABJ. The above article is important as the subject is on beekeepers minds now but the Florida/AHB article can wait a month if the magazine does not have room in March and I do not get done in time. 
I want to devote the time to the AHB article to get it right.I have a gift (I have been told) for being able to explain complicated things in a way everyday beekeepers can understand. I hope to be able to explain what is going on with AHB in Florida, the way the Florida beekeeper can handle the situation and make Florida beekeepers (and others) understand AHB will cause changes but certainly will not be the end of beekeeping.
I have interveiwed around ten people for the article and one is an expert on AHB. I went back to ABJ magazines from 40 years ago getting AHB information. I wrote the article once ( on the way back from Florida) but tossed in the trash. Maybe I am too picky but want to get it right.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

I rememeber about 10-15 years back that a team II a EHB queen with EHB and AHB semen to see what would become of the hive, the hive was aggressive but not like a strait AFB hive if I remember right, the one thing I do remember is that when they grafted larva to make queens, the queens with the AFB traits hatched out a full day before the queens with the EHB traits and killed the EHB queens, and these were all in standard size cells. maybe some of yall watched it, seems like the AHB's were built to take over. 



> In Florida we are dealing with pure " scut" just arrived in the best guess the last ten years.


how was this proven? and if they are pure, how are these different than the AHB in texas, arizona and california?

[ February 01, 2006, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: TwT ]


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ted,
Complicated subject. 
The pure "scut' in most cases follows certain patterns such as running on frames, constant swarming and abscounding and aggression. Long documented facts.
The percent of "Scut"seems to control these traits but you can certainly have a quarter "Scut" with undesirable traits and a full (100%) which is workable because of the genetics.

Many in South America have not got a clue what exact per cent of AHB they are dealing with. if you wanted to spend a 100 times the amount of a years income from their operation to have a team of researchers come in and do dna testing then an explanation could be had. Nobody cares! I don't care. The bottom line once AHB moves into an area is you stay on top of eliminating "hot" hives. The light kick test remains the most used test in Texas.

If you don't remove "hot" queens then slowly the percent of "hot" hives will increase for the obvious reasons talked about. Your quarter percent will rise to half and then to three quarter and then you will start seeing full (100%) "Scut" due in part mainly to the mating success of AHB drones over EU drones and inbreeding.

A simple test (educated guess) to see what level of AHB is in your hives is to tell me what level of bad traits you are seeing.

1.Is constant swarming a problem
2. running on frames common
3. abscounding common
4. Are all hives very aggesive most of the time and some almost unworkable
5.Do some not respond to smoke at all and even seem to be more aggressive when smoke is used
6.Can you sit strong hives in a row and work all at a setting *most of the time* without having bees pour from the other hives.
7. What is the usual distance bees will follow you after working.
8. How long do the bees stay upset after working a day or a week
9. what is the distance you encounter aggresive bees when you enter the bee yard.

These are common questions asked by an AHB expert and he/she can then give an educated guess on degree of AHB in a given yard. However when regular requeening with gentler queens is not done *usually* the bad traits increase.

Maybe Joao or Tomas will take the above simple test for the list about their bees. I know there are good and bad days but surely you have got a general overall idea and be honest as making the situation look better or worse than really is is of little value.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bob, any predictions on what is ahead for NY, as more AHbs show up here with all of the colonies that go between NY and FL and back?


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Mark,
I don't think you will see a problem for awhile but could be wrong. I just hung up the phone with Jerry Hayes (head of Florida apiary inspection)on another matter and article I just finished for March ABJ.
Jerry said CNN has been interveiwing his inspectors all day and is doing a story which will air (he thinks if a slow news day) at 7PM CST tomorrow.
He said there had been no new stinging incidents but AHB word has spread.I hate to see the news media involved. When the load of hives overturned on I29 a few years ago and we bought the load from the insurance co. and cleaned up the mess the news media called. I said I would not comment unless I could see the segment before being aired. Yea right they answered!

They did find a beekeeper to interveiw for thirty minutes and film going through a hive. 

The whole piece was designed to scare the public and they never aired a single word he said about why bees are important. All that was aired was a single picture of his hands and the bee hive. The rest was film of the scene ( or beekeepers cleaning up a bee spill). People were not getting stung if they rolled up their windows as they drove by. Duh!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Bob, say hi to Jerry for me, next time you see him. We both studied under Jim Tew. Jerry before me, and we didn't get to know each other, really.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks Bob, I'll look forward to the article in ABJ. 

Good Post all!


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

Is there a progression of attitude that maps to the progression of AHB?

1. AHB indigenous = public aware, dozer operators hyperaware, beekeepers prepared and cautious - managing problem, media not able to get away with fakery (any more than usual anyway)
2. AHB recent arrival (most dangerous period) = public scared, dozer operators unaware, beekeepers scared, cautious and getting educated, media exploiting
3. AHB possible and close but not arrived = public mostly unaware, beekeepers scared but not prepared, media exploiting
4. AHB possible but not close = public unaware, beekeepers scared, media exploiting
5. AHB not possible (too cold) = public frightened by media exploitation, beekeepers {how would you describe it?}, media selling toilet paper, beer, tampons intermingled with 'newsflash coming up - AHB may arrive in {fill in blank} city riding on {uncaring foreigners vehicles}.

many thanks for the posts from the guys living with AHB, very informative. Also, the simple test list rings true. 

My limited experience with AHB #7 &#9 ring most true - 

* 7. What is the usual distance bees will follow you after working.* 

And in what numbers, EHB by the singles or dozen, AHB in the hundreds

*9. What is the distance you encounter aggresive bees when you enter the bee yard.*

I find the light kick test a bit hollow for AHB. When a dozen or more instantly dive in for unprovoked stings at 30 yards before you reach the beeyard I begin to suspect AHB.

Another less reliable but relevant item might be how many wasted stings into gloves or impenetrable clothing - in other words how many workers will the colony uselessly waste in defense.

Crawling behavior is also markedly different and readily observable.

I will say that being in the midst of a hot AHB hive with proper clothing is truly an unforgettable experience. Being inside a cloud of bees with thousands crawling over your suit, hundreds stinging vainly into your helmet, gloves and sleeves, your suit stained with venon and it's smell overpowering everything else and to have this cloud follow you 200 yards, some staying with you for another half hour. Well you just don't forget the experience.

I like my italian queens a lot









[ February 03, 2006, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: wfarler ]


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

wfarler,

Thanks for that post. I think that all of those things have been written about on beesource before, but never stated so succinctly.

Aspera


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

I've seen another aspect of bee behavior, with my limited AHB experience, that I've never seen with any other bee. AHB's often jump, rather than fly, from a top bar onto a hand or hivetool when it's moved over or around them.

This behavior might easily be missed, but is quite distinctive once it's been observed.

Have any of you real AHB beekeepers observed this?

Regards
Dennis


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A friend of mine, who like me, migrates to SC from NY, asked how much longer do we have before any nucs we make in SC, with queens raised there, are going to be AHb?

If feral colonies in South Florida are coming up AHb, how long before that is true for SC?

Then what will we do to avoid AHb? Stop off in MD or VA?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I expect next year or 2 will be our last years to safely winter in the South, maybe 2009 if we weren't right off I-95 (which we are). It won't matter since the AHB in Fl. are pure scutella and we may see the impacts quickly if the queen and package breeders inside the current line are already infected and thousands of packages and queens qet shipped this spring. We already had one hive in NY last year. I think MD would be the better choice as long as it's not near Frostburg. I'm betting the little blighters might make it in Va. with a little cross breeding.

I think in three years we will be running our own northern queen rearing yards in, splitting hives in the late summer and wintering nucs to replace winter losses and sell in the spring. Of course our stock will become really inbred as we won't have thought of setting up some queen yards with other Beeks to give us fresh genes! There was a question about ying-yang in another thread. I can answer that here. The ying-yang is where we will probably take it as result of this next influx of bee industry problem (AHB).

[ February 05, 2006, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Careful Joel. 

Mike Palmer and other VT beekeepers have been recommending Locally Raised Queens for quite some time. Their meeting a couple of weeks ago was on this topic. Things can be done. But if AHb adjusts to our winters, it's all but over. We will have to adapt or get out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Mike Palmer and other VT beekeepers have been recommending Locally Raised Queens for quite some time. 

It seems to me we should have been doing it all along, but isn't now a good time to start? Lets start rasising our own queens from stock that lives in our climate. No more queens from AHB areas and no more queens that are well adapted to the deep South but not the far North.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"I think in three years we will be running our own northern queen rearing yards in, splitting hives in the late summer and wintering nucs to replace winter losses and sell in the spring. Of course our stock will become really inbred as we won't have thought of setting up some queen yards with other Beeks to give us fresh genes!"

Joel...lets get cracking on those queenyards, ready when you are. 

"But if AHb adjusts to our winters, it's all but over. We will have to adapt or get out."

Mark...that remains to be seen, and the trueth of it is we just don't know if they will...time will tell.

"It seems to me we should have been doing it all along, but isn't now a good time to start? Lets start rasising our own queens from stock that lives in our climate. No more queens from AHB areas and no more queens that are well adapted to the deep South but not the far North."

MB...this has always been a good idea, local queens adjusted to local conditions. However, not everyone will do this, which will always bring packages and queens in from the south.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

peggjam, "remains to be seen". I agree. No one knows if they will survive here for sure, until they do. And then what?


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

How far south did these bees migrate in South America?

[ February 05, 2006, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: The Honey House ]


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Someone else can give you an answer on that. What I will point out is that we have a migratory beekeeping industry that they don't have in South America. At least, not as developed.


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## Spigold (Jul 31, 2004)

To be perfectly honest I don't think there is much to worry about on an industry level. 
I believe beekeepers who winter in East Texas will tell you that their bees got hot several years ago. Several HUNDRED THOUSAND colonies come out of East Texas every year and go north into the Midwest for honey production. Through selection of gentle bees things are close to normal again. 
I remeber a few more details about the story in Mexico. In an area of heavy AHB pressure two sets of apiaries were maintained. One set was allowed to requeen on their own, the other was given EHB marked queens and then monitored for to make sure those colonies were always headed by EHB queens. They then breed from the EHB line. They showed that if you stay on the ball you can mitigate the effects of the wild AHB AND increase your honey production. Of course the colonies that were not requeened with selected stock were Africanized. I believe I saw this article in an old ABJ?
Something else to ponder is: Grimes County Texas should have been Africanized back in the early 90's when the counties near by were being Afircanized. But for some (politics I'd wager) reason Grimes County remains an island that is AHB free (according to maps). You should be asking what's in Grimes County Texas? Weaver Brothers! 
All of this is to say two things: 1. AHB genes have been distrubted far and wide
2. And through long-term normal selection and managment AHB isn't a problem. 
Sorry for the long post
Spigold


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"Something else to ponder is: Grimes County Texas should have been Africanized back in the early 90's when the counties near by were being Afircanized. But for some (politics I'd wager) reason Grimes County remains an island that is AHB free (according to maps). You should be asking what's in Grimes County Texas? Weaver Brothers!"

It may remain on the map as AHB free, but I'd bee willing to bet that there is AHB there. Losing business for the largest queen breeder in the state proably wouldn't be good, and some of the queens I have gotten from Texas were alot hotter than I liked and were requeened. Thankfully I never recieved one that was full AHB, but there certainly was some AHB genes there. 

As far as wethere AHB can survive in the north, if they do, we will have to adapt. Not much else we can do. But I still feel that this will be mostly limited to a seasonal problem brought on mostly by migatory beekeeps, and from buying packages and queens from the south. Northern beekeeps may have to adjust their buying habits from spring time to fall, and only buy full hives or nucs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Your probably right peggjam. We'll have to raise our own queens and make nucs to winter them in to have replacements for the spring. That's what some VT beekeepers are doing.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Spigold,
For most commercial beekeepers an F1 AHB is workable. Some AHB F1 with the aggressive genes are not. 
Keeping the AHB F1 in your hives can be done by requeening every year wwith EU queens using remote mating yards in areas of AHB.

You do walk away splits or let supercedure queens live on in areas of AHB and you are going to see the level of AHB increase. Beekeeping history has shown us this.

If you are in an area of AHB and raise queens and you keep your EU virgin queen stock pure (through numbered queens and II) and make an attempt to control drone stock you should send out mostly EU mated queens and a few AHB mated queens. I have no idea what the percentage might be. A guess might be if your ordered say 10 queens none or maybe one. 
*The gray area is when you get AHB genetics in you queen line. Then you are sending out queens producing AHB drones. I will explain further in my AHB article.
I believe its time the industry was brought up to speed on exactly what causes the problem and what beekeepers can do to avoid hot hives. 
The average beekeeper is NOT going to like the method needed to keep AHB genetics out of his/her bees and most likely will do as most beekeepers in Texas in areas of AHB do. Light kick test and either requeen or depopulate hot hives.
Bee Havers which do not make an attempt to control hot bees and practice beekeeping like they would a bird house will be the problem. Leave alone beekeeping will be a problem. Leave alone bee havers are a big reason American foulbrood is still around.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So Bob, "The gray area is when you get AHb genetics in your queen line. Then you are sending out queens producing AHb drones."

There is the problem, right there, right?

What does the DNA testing done by Hayes and others show them?

I'm going to e-mail Jerry that question too.


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## JJ (Jun 22, 2004)

Hi everyone, I wonder if Jerry has local people working with him on the AHB? Take care JJ


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

In what way? JJ


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Mark,
The percent of AHB (10% as compared to 50% or say 100%) has a direct relationship in *general* terms to the amount of undesirable traits the subject bees carry.

Genetics is the bottom line but a 100% scuteliata
Has been observed with many different general traits beekeepers considered undesirable.One of which is aggresive behavior.

A hybrid with only a small percent AHB may display only a few of those traits OR NONE.

The fact that a EU queen has open mated with a "scut" is usually only a minor issue and may actually produce a decent bee. The problem is when though inbreeding the percent AHB starts to increase.

These are general observations. Actual genetic maping of the genetics would give a clearer picture.
AHB undesirable traits: 
1.runs on frames.
2. swarms 8-16 times a year.
3. abscounds with brood in the hive
4. aggressive behavior
and 20 or so other undesirable traits observed in "Scuts".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Bob.

Perhaps that answers a question that I had earlier in the year. 

Could an aggressive colony, that shows little or almost no sign of "Non-European" determination, still be influenced by a small number of AHb genes?

One colony that appeared to seem very aggressive to me, when I finally got into it, turned out to have no capped brood. At first I thought that it was queenless. But after looking closer, if found eggs and young larvae.

Is it possible, that even though this colony showed a FABIS analysis of European .999 and Non-European .001, that it was AHb and had swarmed recently?

I understand that FL is using FABIS with most samples and then DNA for stinging incidents. Is that true?


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## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

Just a note on AHB absconding: it seems to me that this behavior has been receiving much more concern than it really deserves. It's an important trait to enhance the chances of colony survival in the wild, and it does help explain the success of AHB spread.

But, for the beekeeper, absconding is less a bees' problem than a management fault. They may abscond if they get no food stores in a dearth, or when overstressed by excessive heat or insensibly frequent management. So, unless you want to find the queen everyday or so, you can be almost 100% sure that the bees will stay home, as long as they always have some food, plus shade/ventilation in hot weather.

Think of absconding as a punishment for bad beekeeping, just like a deadout, when you realize that you hadn't fed them enough.

João Campos


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Just to put this in perspective, I've seen hives (usually cut outs of feral bees) back as far as the 70's that were pretty vicious. Just because a hive is hot does not mean it's AHB. IMO, it DOES mean it needs to be requeened even if it's 100% EHB.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Joao,
I agree for the most part and it seems in the AHB hybrids (you mostly work) abscounding is not a big issue. Above I only typed fast a few examples in no particular order although numbered.
I really do have a hard time finding time for internet lists. So I have to concentrate on questions which will help the most people.
Abscounding has ssurfaced in the European bees of the U.S. since all the pests arrived but nothing like observed in AHB.
Some AHB areas of the U.S. see the problem more than others. In the Arizona/New Mexico area the last five years of drought have caused AHB to abscound at high levels people have told me.
Mark,
I did interveiws of two people which do the early testing in Florida. Both told me the exact smae thing.
They are capable of doing the Fabis with or without a computer by microscope. 

The most used test is a three point computer program from the Tucson Bee Lab BASED ON MORPH.

The above will be explained in my article with pictures.

If further verification is needed then the sample is sent to another part of the building for DNA testing. I attempted two times to speak with dna people and take pictures but was turned down. DNA testing is still a somewhat secret process. Even on Hollywood CSI shows the testing is refered to but never explained.

Also in my article will be a chart showing the way AHB increases and declines in a bee population. The original chart was designed by Steve Tabor for instrumental inseminators. 
Although we use percent AHB to define AHB the true way would be through mapping the genetics. We have the tech but not willing to spend the time and bucks.
AHB is a big issue for us but only of minor concern to the powers that be.
Every time I drive through aligator alley in South Florida (outside Miami) I chuckle. No signs saying "Beware of the aligators" "Swim at your own risk" etc. There is a sign or two which says to be watchful of aligators crossing the road.
I took a picture of a 16 foot aligator from a boat I was on suning his self on the St. Johns River last trip.
In the end all I expect done for Florida tourists are signs which say " Do not molest bee swarms"


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Bob,

The DNA testing is much less complex than its made out to be. Basically, the DNA from the bees serves as a template for manufacturing more DNA. Regions of the DNA specific to either AHB or EHB are amplified and then separated using a jello like substance with electric current passing through it.

I have an unrelated question. I have heard many people on this site saying that AHb will primarily affect hobbiests, not commercial beekeepers. As a hobbiest who lives pretty far north, I was just wondering if anyone has predictions whether AHb will spread up the warmer coastal regions first (like PA) or up the colder but drier Midwest first (like Kansas and Nebraska).


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"I was just wondering if anyone has predictions whether AHb will spread up the warmer coastal regions first (like PA) or up the colder but drier Midwest first (like Kansas and Nebraska)."

Oh ya, Aspera, their're gonna be in your backyard at the first spring warmup.....LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

IMHO, I don't think the "experts" can define when and where they will show up. While we profess to know alot about these AHB's, we still have no hard data on where they can and can't survive. We don't know if they can adapt to cold climites, we don't know wether rainfall limits their ability to move into any one area, we don't know...............alot. The one thing I can tell you with certainty is.........we'll know alot more in another 20 years.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

My prediction is there will a clear path along I-95 similar to what we saw with Hive beetles due to this being a major migration route for pollination out of Florida. There will also be widely scattered Purer AHB showing up from packages and queens shipped out of the affected area this spring as well as concentrated areas around areas of heavy pollination. These hives/swarms will not be noticed until July by which time there will be a 15-20 mile radius around infected operations with clear genetics from the pure strain we now see in Florida due to swarms and AHB Drones breeding with EHB. The owned hives will be requeened leaving the AHB Drone impact and most of the swarms which go wild will die out over the winter. Some Genetics will survive the winter and we will start the cycle again next year. 

I could be wrong though!

[ February 08, 2006, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Joel said:
"Some genetics will survive the winter and we will start the cycle again next year"

Has already happened in commercial bee yards in the north. The AHb genetics display different than normal hot hives. I have been in beekeeping over forty years.The "hot" hives of the last decade are different in many ways. The ways they are different are described in articles describing AHB behavior. 
My last encounter in my yards was three years ago in some unmarked production queens I had bought. I killed the hives. 
I keep a close watch on queens now(all are marked or numbered) so I don't expect a problem. 
Commercial beekeeper friends in Texas deal with "hot" hives all the time. The cost of doing business in AHB areas. They DO NOT send samples off each time they see a hot hive. Nor would I. The beekeepers which depopulate hot hives have the least trouble and the ones which try to requeen and keep the drones the most.


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## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

> Commercial beekeeper friends in Texas deal
> with "hot" hives all the time. The cost of
> doing business in AHB areas.

Bob (and all), 

I'm really curious about what you foresee as a long-term solution to that situation. I can think of some options:

(A) Resist (till the last man!







), requeening whenever bad traits are detect?

(B) Adapt, requeening only unmanageable/unproductive colonies every year or two?

(C) Try to breed out the worst traits and produce a better bee?

(D) A then B then C?

(E) Move to Maine and buy queens only from Hawaii







?


What do you think?

And, is (C) really possible?

João


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"And, is (C) really possible?"

You have delt with AHB far longer than we have, have you had any luck doing this? Also, it would be interesting to sample some of your "nicer" hives and have them DNA profiled to see if there has been any diluting of the AHB genes over time. I assume from your above post that you only requeen when the hive is unmanageable or unproductive?


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Joao,
An excellent post. 

C. is possible but not cost effective. All you do is simply keep reducing the percentage of AHB in your bees through breeding. The problem with C. is the mongrel AHB you would be starting with. You would need several years to evaluate and select breeders and then use for breeders to see what the F1 & F2 are like.
Instrumental insemination would have to be used in my opinion.

One possible solution for using the best of AHB (which under current laws would be illegal ) would be to use AHB semen and inseminate a European queen. Then you would eliminate the AHB drone problem. Which is exactly what the Baton Rouge Bee Lab did in the 60's. Pure AHB semen shipped in from the world's foremost bee geneticist of the period the infamous Dr. Kerr.
Dr. Kerr had already done the selection process.

It is kind of sad a man with such talent be most remembered for the release and not his other contributions.

Rumor has it the AHB experiments of Steve Tabor have been recreated by outlaw queen breeders. Not rocket science for sure as glass tubes of semen are easily shipped through the mail.

E. I am sure Gus R. would love E.

A. Requeening is only a quick fix. In take overs you have got the AHB drones.

B.Adapt with a regular requeening program using marked queens. I would remove (at the start of AHb in my area) hives from my yards displaying AHB traits by depopulating and tossing the equipment on the truck. If I was worried about numbers I would plan on making enough splits to allow for the depopulating when making increase. 

"Beekeeping is both simple and complicated at the same time"

Simple works for many and complicated works for a few.


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## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

>"And, is (C) really possible?"

Looks like a weird question from an AHBeekeeper, doesn't it? Let me try to explain. 

If you could reprogram the AHB genetics, which traits would you take off first? Let me guess: aggressiveness and high swarming inclination. What would you keep? Diseases/pests tolerance, surely. The other traits are far less important, IMO.

So you'd have a docile, non-swarming, resistent bee, that you'd select further for productivity, calmness on combs, nice colors, whatever. Then what? 

Original AHBs wouldn't disappear from the wild. Would that new bee be able to compete better than any other eurobee? As a docile bee, it probably wouldn't do better than eurobees in fighting predators, including AHB usurpers.

Also, if that new bee showed no high swarming/absconding tendency, feral colonies would be much less numerous than AHB's, so the africanized drones would always outnumber the other races'. Then matings in the wild would promote a quick reafricanization, and you'd still depend on breeders from isolated areas to get new queens. 

Any difference from today's situation? Well, at least the new bee would be more disease/pest tolerant, which would be a great improvement - but not much related to what we're discussing now.

> You have delt with AHB far longer than 
> we have, have you had any luck doing this?

Here we deal with a extremely variable bee. Sometimes even after requeening every hive with queens from a good breeder. I'd say the average is acceptable/good, but the standard deviation is very large. It's probably a consequence of the AHB saturation in all regions, which prevents more oriented matings. Moreover, most breeders seem to give higher priority to productivity (honey, pollen, propolis) than to good (for us) behavioral traits.

> Also, it would be interesting to sample some
> of your "nicer" hives and have them DNA
> profiled to see if there has been any
> diluting of the AHB genes over time.

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure if what I call "nice" bees wouldn't make you take a crucifix and a bunch of garlic to the apiary...









But, yes, I'd love to know that, and I wonder if the results wouldn't show a more africanized bee than many people suppose (including Brazilians).

> I assume from your above post that you only
> requeen when the hive is unmanageable or
> unproductive?

No, I requeen every colony once a year and I'm thinking of doing it twice a year. Because of the high swarming rate, that's what bother me the most. 

The sentence I wrote got different from what I was thinking - since English is not my native language, I try to keep things as short and simple as I can, which sometimes (often?) leads me to mistakes.

What I would have to have written is: 
(B) Adapt, requeening every year or two, and more often only in case of unmanageable/unproductive colonies?

I was thinking of people who keep bees in the backyard and can't stand some level of aggressiveness, and the commercial BKs who can't stand unproductiveness for a long time.

João


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Then matings in the wild would promote a quick reafricanization, and you'd still depend on breeders from isolated areas to get new queens. 

Perhaps. But there are other qualities that give the AHB a mating advantage that you wouldn't have to breed out. Or for that matter, you could try to breed into an EHB. A higher percentage of drones in the hive is one. Drones that fly in a bigger time window is another. These are not related to swarming or agression.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Joao,
Your English is very good. I have trouble understanding my friends from around the world at times in private email but you are coming across perfectly clear. I am enjoying your posts very much. I have trouble at times even understanding my Australian friends when they talk fast by phone. 
I am learning Spanish but get lost when the converstation speeds up or words not normally used are brought in. 

I believe you and I are on the same page. You have got the direct experience and I have got the breeding information you are searching for.

Improving the AHB has been tried with some degree of success. Barry Seargant (a friend) from South Africa has reported success to me but he uses instrumental insemination. He has a web site and I could locate if you have trouble finding.

I raise a small herd of exotic animals in the U.S.. Which were imported from South America. After over a decade of selective breeding I still can breed two blacks and get a white cria or two whites and get a black cria. A friend which raises horses (and wrote a book on the color subject) told me in time the genetics will line up and breedings will run true for color.

Other traits can be changed in a generation. Others in two.

Bees are different but the same principal applies. Many of the traits Michael Bush sees as good in AHB were once in our U.S. bees but were lost due to selecting our breeders for 2 or 3 qualities only. 

One reason the New World Carnolian has become such a dependable all around bee is Sue Cobey is selecting for more than a couple qualities.

However she has never been able to shake out a carniolian which is exactly like an Italian. I am sure she could if she wanted to on a small scale but the genetics fixed over a huge amount of time are hard to remove. Let a little open mating take place through supercedure and the old style carniolan pops back up.

I have used countless queen numbers of all the races available in the U.S.. Each is ture to the description of the race despite the source.

In closing let me say I have asked some of the U.S. best queen breeders and researchers why they do not travel to Brazil and attempt a AHB breeding program. I have never found one yet willing to attempt the project due mainly to the aggressive nature and the mongrel state of the genetics.


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## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

> Your English is very good... I have trouble at
> times even understanding my Australian friends

Thanks, Bob. I know what you mean, sometimes even the Portuguese spoken in Europe and Africa sounds like a completely different language to me. Once I thought I could communicate in French, then I went to Québec. Fiasco. In another occasion, I thought I could speak a little English, then I went to Australia. Disaster. Since then I got totally discouraged to understand the dance language...  

> Barry Seargant (a friend) from South Africa
> has reported success to me 

Yes, I've already read about him here in BeeSource:
Sergeant

But I'd like very much to know about his progress on the selection. Have you known something about him recently?

> I have asked some of the U.S. best queen breeders 
> and researchers why they do not travel to
> Brazil and attempt a AHB breeding program

Maybe it's a good idea. They wouldn't have to establish a entire project here, just to seek the right partner. There're some public centers that already do some research in AHB breeding, much limited by meager budgets, and could be interested in such cooperation. One is the Genetics Department of the University of São Paulo, in Ribeirão Preto. David de Jong, a well known researcher and former apiary inspector in NY works there, and he's probably a good first contact.

>... the infamous Dr. Kerr... It is kind of sad 
> a man with such talent be most remembered for
> the release and not his other contributions.

It's kind of unfair, I believe. Think of the conditions and current knowledge at that time. Bees productivity in Brazil was poor. Exceptionally high productivities were being reported from South Africa since the 40's. Brother Adam was bringing bees from every place and having an increasing success. Who in the world at that time could predict such outcome? Who among us would lose the opportunity Kerr grabbed? What's the difference (in merit) between Kerr's introduction and any other's?

Kerr is not my hero (as he is for many Brazilian BKs), nor do I agree much with his current position on AHBs. But, for me, he'll never be a vilain.


João


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

This is the sort of discussion on AHB I've been hoping to see for a long, long time! Thanks much, guys for all the information!

I've been mulling over a lot of this information for a while, now, and one point in particular keeps "sticking in my craw," if you will. The suggestion was made that the AHB in Florida might really be pure scutellata (not Africanized, but African) that entered as stowaway swarms on cargo ships. That seem plausible to me, but for one "sticking point." Why aren't we seeing similar patterns around other ports of entry? Cargo ships enter ports around Los Angeles and New York and in the Mississippi River delta and other places as well as ports in Florida. They even enter ports in Hawaii, yet these other locations have yet to report similar importations of AHB or scutellata swarms. Why is that? Do most of the ships coming to North America from Africa dock in Florida? Do other features, such as climate, make survival of these entering swarms more likely in Florida than in, say, New York? And, why then haven't swarms of scutellata arrived in Hawaii from Africa?

Maybe just as importantly, how long does a cargo ship take to cross the Atlantic or Pacific? How long can a swarm survive as just a swarm? Can a swarm survive intact long enough to cross an ocean on a cargo ship?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Another thing to keep in mind is that there are many kinds of African bees. Scutella and adonsonii are from Southern Africa. There are other types in other parts of the continent. Monticola are one of those from Northern Africa. I don't know enough about shipping patterns to predict where all ships from Southern Africa would dock.

At this point, since we already have the scutella, the scarier import would be Cape bees.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I never gave the Cape bees a thought! Don't they "swarm" (if I can call it that) even more than scutellata? Wouldn't they be even MORE likely to show up on cargo ships?

What about other countries? Cargo ships from Africa must certainly enter ports in other countries, some much closer than the United States ports including some in southern Europe. Are AHB showing up around those ports?


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"At this point, since we already have the scutella, the scarier import would be Cape bees."

MB

Not a good thought, not a good thought at all.....


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I don't think that we have to worry about capensis. Supposedly the race has been extirpated in many natural habitats, and is rapidly being pushed to extinction or blended with scutella where domestic colonies are kept.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I don't think that we have to worry about capensis. Supposedly the race has been extirpated in many natural habitats, and is rapidly being pushed to extinction or blended with scutella where domestic colonies are kept.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I don't think that we have to worry about capensis. Supposedly the race has been extirpated in many natural habitats, and is rapidly being pushed to extinction or blended with scutella where domestic colonies are kept.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Kieck,

they've been found in North Carolina

http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/PDF%20files/1.03.pdf

third paragraph down

Dave


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Wow! I hadn't read any about African or Africanized bees found around other ports. Great information, Dave!

Now I wonder how many swarms escaped detection around these ports? I have a lot of respect for the abilities of those trying to deal with these swarms, but I also recognize the physical and fiscal limitations in situations like these. Do most ports have similar "bee-free" zones around them? What are the chances that a few swarms might slip through the system anyway (some must have made it through any defenses in Florida, assuming, first, that Florida has a system of defence similar to North Carolina's system, and, second, that the African or Africanized bees really did arrive on cargo ships)?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

So maybe we can quit blaming Dr. Kerr now?


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

(Sorry. Double post.)

[ February 10, 2006, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Kieck ]


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm in agreement with Joao on that one. Dr. Kerr isn't a hero or a villain by my standards. My impression (maybe Joao could verify this?) is that Brazilian beekeepers at the time were looking for ways to improve production. Dr. Kerr was hired by the government to research breeding techniques to improve production. AHB may have been an unfortunate consequence, but the "demand" for a greater production existed across Brazilian beekeepers and, likely, across the general population of Brazil.

I still wonder (from posts on another thread) whether one of our best solutions in dealing with AHB might be importing the most gentle, least likely to swarm, scutellata stock we can find from Africa. Some researchers have suggested that the first scutellata imported into Brazil were extremely defensive/aggressive, even for scutellata, and a "founder effect" might be responsible for the behavior seen in the AHB in the Americas. Maybe importing MORE scutellata selectively would "water down" some of these traits?

Of course, if scutellata is immigrating on its own by stowing away on cargo ships, some of that founder effect should disappear without humans importing more bees deliberately. (Unless defensive/aggressive bees, for whatever reason, are much more likely to cross oceans as stowaways on cargo ships and/or much more likely to establish colonies and survive once they reach the other side.)


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

hmm,

I had kinda always assumed swarms coming in on a ship were coming from South America.
I guess that isn't necessarily the case
I do suspect the volume of shipping from S. to N. America is much greater that from Africa

Dave

[ February 10, 2006, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"I had kinda always assumed swarms coming in on a ship were coming from South America."

Me too.

"I still wonder (from posts on another thread) whether one of our best solutions in dealing with AHB might be importing the most gentle, least likely to swarm, scutellata stock we can find from Africa. Some researchers have suggested that the first scutellata imported into Brazil were extremely defensive/aggressive, even for scutellata, and a "founder effect" might be responsible for the behavior seen in the AHB in the Americas. Maybe importing MORE scutellata selectively would "water down" some of these traits?"

I think this idea has merits, and could use some futher study. I should hope that it is only done if it does indeed result in a gentler bee. I would like to get the brood traits of the AHB into a gentle, usable bee. Does anyone know what the egglaying rate is for an AHB queen? I suspect the colony build up rate for AHB would make an awesome pollinator unit.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

>>I had kinda always assumed swarms coming in on a ship were coming from South America.

I would have assumed the same thing, but, as Bob pointed out, the bees in Florida seem to be pure scutellata, rather than the hybridized AHB from South America. I wonder how many AHB colonies do come in on ships from South America, as well as the swarms directly from Africa?

I wonder how many swarms from our colonies, commercial or otherwise, wind up on other continents after hitching rides on cargo ships? Do you suppose some of our bees end up in Japan or China, for instance?

>>I do suspect the volume of shipping from S. to N. America is much greater that from Africa

I would figure the same thing, but I would suspect the volume is still greater between Asia and North America (think of our trading with China and southeast Asia). I wonder if we'll see Apis cerana show up as swarms on cargo ships? Maybe the transoceanic voyage across the Pacific is just a little too long for swarms to survive?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I was looking for info about the ports at Norfolk and Chaleston and found this


http://www.vtnews.vt.edu/Archives/2000/00207.html

we're doomed  

Dave


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

That's information I'd read before. I hadn't tied it to the cargo ships because it was suggested that the swarms arrived on freight trains, which, I guess, is maybe an even easier method of dispersing than traveling on cargo ships? Once on a freight train, the AHB swarms could "get off" whenever they feel like it.

I still wonder how many of these swarms slip past undetected, both around ports served by cargo ships and around other transportation hubs? All the "experts" in the references seem pretty confident they're finding all of the AHB swarms, but couldn't quite a few be slipping by without much notice yet?

With all the transportation across the country and around the globe, I'm surprised, after thinking about it, that we haven't seen a much more rapid, wide-ranging spread of African or Africanized honey bees so far.

Maybe we should worry less about the spread of AHB by migratory beekeepers or shipments of queens and/or packages, and more about spread of AHB through routine shipping operations?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

third paragraph from the bottom

> In 1996, a swarm is believed to have gotten off a ship in Norfolk but wasn't discovered until it showed up in Maine, transported there by truck.

it's clear they've been getting introduced in this area for a long time
as you suggest it's pretty obvious the authorities can't get all of them
I'm trying to delude myself into believing that the fact they haven't gotten established means they can't survive here
time will tell

Dave

[ February 10, 2006, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm hoping they can't survive this far north or as far north as you are either, but I'm probably deluding myself, too.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

since this is a CALM discussion, let me throw this in to lighten it up









http://charleston.craigslist.org/pol/122932731.html 

talk about delusional









Dave

[ February 10, 2006, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Here's a picture that's worth a thousand words:

http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/media/gallery/ahbs.jpg


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Has anybody acctually found a swarm on a ship? Where on a ship was it located? 

I've seen ship going through the Eisonhower Locks, here near Massena, NY. They are big. But if there were a swarm of bees on any of the ships that I saw, I find it difficult to believe that people on board wouldn't come across it, at some time.

I have set out swarm lures, to attract swarms that might come off of ocean going vessels coming through the locks. But there aren't lots of ocean going ship going through the St. Lawrence Seaway, from what I was told by the Lock Master. 

The swarm lure did attract a few bees, but not a swarm. There were no results from the sample that I sent off. There weren't enough bees in the trap or sample.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks George. Is that Tony Jadzack? He told me, at the VT Beekeepers meeting, that he has experienced that sort of bee behavior. So, you bee cautious when you go collecting swarms after the blue berry pollinators are gone.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Thanks George. Is that Tony Jadzack? 

Don't believe it. Came off the Tuscon Agricultural Research site. I was just poking around with Google Image search this morning and came across it.

>He told me, at the VT Beekeepers meeting, that he has experienced that sort of bee behavior.

Oh, so you finally met the guy! He's a riot to talk with- I spent an hour and a half on the phone with him the other day, he had me in stitches talking about all kinds of stuff, mostly queen rearing (he's putting on a seminar for some of us local beekeepers this spring) but we touched on about um.. everything, including AHB, which he believes is coming into Maine regularly with the migratory beekeepers and has been, for quite a few years.

The first AHB swarm to show up here in Maine was I believe about 10 years ago on a railroad car. Tony was there to greet it- this I heard I think over on BEE-L.

I'll be watching them blueberry swarms. My "hot" hive sends out 2-3 guards to pimp-cuff you a few times if you don't carefully and methodically smoke the entrance and under the inner cover before pulling the lid. That's a far cry from what most people mean when they say "hot" and not even close to what that poor beestard in the photo I posted above had to contend with









George-

[ February 11, 2006, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: George Fergusson ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> since this is a CALM discussion, let me throw this in to lighten it up
> http://charleston.craigslist.org/pol/122932731.html
> talk about delusional


Not all that delusional - we've been working on
a very similar project here at Fischer Alchemy
for a few years, but we've had problems with
the ion drive - tough to make one that small..

http://bee-quick.com/pix/robo.jpg


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## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

> Here's a picture that's worth a thousand words:

Looks like he forgot lighting the smoker...


> Dulcius ex asperis

That's probably the best motto for beekeeping I have ever seen, George. It's pure beekeeping!

João


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>That's probably the best motto for beekeeping I have ever seen, George.

It's the Clan Fergusson motto. It seemed rather appropriate


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

google rox  

http://www.almac.co.uk/stronvar/ferguson/index.htm

Dave


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