# What can I do about varroa mites?



## Slow Drone

Look up powder sugar dusting for mite control.


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## Bigfish

Is that not a treatment? I thought about doing that. Does it really work?


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## tacomabees

Bigfish said:


> I want to be treatment-free. This is my second year and I have not treated yet.
> 
> My hives don't seem to be very productive right now even though flowers are blooming everywhere. So I did a sugar roll on one hive and found 30 mites on a half cup of bees.
> 
> I only have three hives, I will check the other two tomorrow.
> 
> My hives are setup like this.
> -Small cell foundation.
> -Screened bottom boards.
> -Top entrance.
> 
> Any advice?
> 
> 
> Have a read here for a little info on treatment free approaches, and others... http://scientificbeekeeping.com/varroa-management/treatments-for-varroa/


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## Slow Drone

It will get the levels down. I don't believe it's considered a treatment of course sometime it depends on who you talk to.


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## Harley Craig

There is nothing you can give them and still be treatment free the whole concept is to let the bees take care of the problem. There are management techniques that give the bees an advantage like making late splits and over wintering nucs. If you can't stand to loose the weak ones and are anti chemical, maybe you will feel more comfortable with organic treatments. No shame in it if you do, beekeeping is very personal and very local


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## Slow Drone

Just to clear it up, by Beesource definition sugar dusting is considered a treatment.


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## Bigfish

Thanks everyone for the replys and link!

I am going to try powder sugar dusting every week for a month and see what happens.


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## Oldtimer

It will possibly knock a few mites off the bees. It will not have a significant effect. Also people will not want to discuss it much here because this is the treatment free forum.

There was a thread a few years ago by a guy who committed to sugar dust his hive every 3 days until he got rid of the mites. He kept it up for a couple of months, and his measurements did indeed show he eliminated most of the mites. But he said he would not do it again.

Bigfish you say you want to be treatment free but are asking how to get rid of the mites anyway. The non chemical way favoured by most treatment free folks is to use the right bees. You could requeen the hives with queens that will produce varroa resistant bees, such as are sold by Beeweavers. The question is how far gone are your hives, ie, is there time for a new queen to produce enough bees to turn the tide before the hive collapses. In any case, having bees that can do it themselves is really the only truly treatment free way.


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## Bigfish

> In any case, having bees that can do it themselves is really the only truly treatment free way.


OK Oldtimer, now you have me rethinking again. I do want my bees to be treatment free.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Try researching VSH. I made the jump to VSH queens last season and added more queens this season. The improvement in my mite checks amazes me.

JMO

Rusty


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## Andrew Dewey

30 mites in a half cup sample is an extremely high mite count.


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## sqkcrk

Slow Drone said:


> Look up powder sugar dusting for mite control.


But it's a treatment.


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## sqkcrk

wdale said:


> You could try naturally occurring chemicals such as organic acids, essential oils and pheromones (non-synthetic)
> Organic acids acaricides: "Mite A Way, Formic Acid 65% Oxalic Acid Essential oils acaricides: Thymovar, Menthol
> pheromones are still under development also Biological control is coming under testing in my area


All treatments.


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## sqkcrk

Bigfish said:


> I am going to try powder sugar dusting every week for a month and see what happens.


Okay, since you are willing to modify your stance why don't you give drone frames a try. You can also confine the queen for three weeks, giving your bees a brood break. These things, along w/ hygienic bees, will help.


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## laketrout

I did a sugar roll last year and found 12 mites , when I did a MAQS treatment 800 mites fell on the sticky board , if I didn't treat when I did I feel certain they wouldn't have survived the winter .I agree with Andrew 30 mites in a sugar roll is really out of control. I would think a more aggressive treatment is needed fast .


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## squarepeg

Oldtimer said:


> It will possibly knock a few mites off the bees. It will not have a significant effect. Also people will not want to discuss it much here because this is the treatment free forum.


from the 'unique forum rules':

"Any post advocating the use of treatments, according to the forum definition of treatment will be considered off topic and shall be moved to another forum or deleted by a moderator, *unless it is employed as part of a plan in becoming treatment free.*"

(emphasis mine)

this allows for the contingency that there may be those who might consider treatments as a stop gap measure to save a colony which has not been able to 'do it on it's own', and prevent the loss of time, money, and a live colony of bees.

tf 'mindset' has been brought up in another thread. to some, this mindset is seen to include being prepared to allow colonies to perish as part of the tf process. i see nothing wrong with this, and i have always felt that all beekeepers should be able to make their own management decisions as they so feel moved to do so, (within the constraints of applicable laws and in a way that doesn't threaten nearby colonies kept by others and/or feral colonies).

what often appears to be the case is that beginning beekeepers have made the decision to go tf without understanding that this may involve losing colonies in what can potentially become a disappointing and expensive process. 

it makes perfect sense to me for someone to do whatever is necessary to save a colony in the short term and while attempting to come up with measures that will lead to their bees being able to be kept off treatments, but to the hard core this 'mindset' flys against theirs and they dismiss it.

bottom line: don't be constrained by this or that definition and make your choices based on what it is you feel is appropriate for you, your circumstances, and your goals.


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## Andrew Dewey

squarepeg said:


> what often appears to be the case is that beginning beekeepers have made the decision to go tf without understanding that this may involve losing colonies in what can potentially become a disappointing and expensive process.


Thanks SquarePeg for saying this so eloquently.


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## D Semple

squarepeg said:


> it makes perfect sense to me for someone to do whatever is necessary to save a colony in the short term and while attempting to come up with measures that will lead to their bees being able to be kept off treatments, but to the hard core this 'mindset' flys against theirs and they dismiss it.
> 
> bottom line: don't be constrained by this or that definition and make your choices based on what it is you feel is appropriate for you, your circumstances, and your goals.


+ 1, Great advise Peg


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## Michael Bush

What often appears to be the case is that beginning beekeepers have made the decision TO treat without understanding that this may STILL involve losing colonies in what can potentially become a disappointing and expensive process while contaminating their equipment and often losing their principles on the way...


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## estreya

Squarepeg, beautifully stated.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney

My advice, do nothing, do what you want to be. Do you think their "seemingly lack of productivity" is correlated to mites? Whats the population of the hives?


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## mathesonequip

tacomabees said:


> Bigfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> "My hives don't seem to be very productive right now even though flowers are blooming everywhere. So I did a sugar roll on one hive and found 30 mites on a half cup of bees."
> 
> I was inspecting a hive last sat. morning with author dr. larry connor. the sugar shake was about exactly the same on a migratory hive. his quote "dead hive flying". this is the same as an alcohol wash showing 20 mites per 100 bees. you have a big problem.
Click to expand...


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## squarepeg

Michael Bush said:


> What often appears to be the case is that beginning beekeepers have made the decision TO treat without understanding that this may STILL involve losing colonies in what can potentially become a disappointing and expensive process while contaminating their equipment and often losing their principles on the way...


agreed michael, starting up with bees without understanding is a crap shoot at best either way. maybe we can agree that getting understanding is difficult due to the myriad of opinions out there and the widely varying outcomes observed. obtaining bees from and mentoring under someone with experience and located in one's area would appear to be the best route for a beginner, but that option isn't always available.

i notice that you advocate monitoring for mites and using 'softer' treatments if necessary while on the path to becoming treatment free:

"...you don't have to go cold turkey on treatments. You can monitor mites (and I would) until things are stable. Meanwhile you could use some non contaminating treatment IF the numbers get too high. I have seen no losses from Varroa from regressing in this manner and no increase in losses to stress related problems."

from:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

this makes good sense to me and what i was trying to put forward above. have you changed your point of view on this?


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## Slow Drone

Squarepeg I'm treatment free but what you say makes good sense to me also!


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## dsegrest

There are lots of things you can do for Varroa mites. Unless you want to use poison, the only thing that will really work is to break the brood cycle. You can do this by getting rid of the old queen and getting a new one. There needs to be a time lapse, where there is no brood being capped for the varroa to lay in. When new eggs finally reach the capping stage, there won't be many cells. The varroa will overload the ones that are capped and larvae and varroa will starve to death.


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## Michael Bush

>have you changed your point of view on this? 

I'm not sure it's really productive. There are many other factors involved such as the microbes and disrupting the whole ecosystem of the hive and often there is some tipping point where the bees get motivated to resolve the problem. Interfering before that may bypass that occurrence. There is inherently nothing right or wrong about treating or not treating except that we will never get past this as long as we continue to treat. Beekeepers apparently didn't learn much from wax moths (the scourge of the late 1800s) and tracheal mites (The scourge of the early 1980s).

I learned decades ago raising baby chicks, if you surround yourself with life, you surround yourself with death. They come together. You may be able to minimize the unplanned losses by your actions, but you won't be able to eliminate them. You should psychologically prepare yourself for that before you start raising any living thing.

I don't see people who are treating losing less hives than those who are not so I fail to see the point of using a tactic that we know will not result in long term success when I don't even see any short term gain.


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## snl

Michael Bush said:


> I don't see people who are treating losing less hives than those who are not so I fail to see the point of using a tactic that we know will not result in long term success when I don't even see any short term gain.


Really? Michael, you need to look a little harder. So is what you're saying is "we should all just stop treating?" Maybe read Randy Oliver's rant....


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## Michael Bush

>Maybe read Randy Oliver's rant.... 

I've read Randy's rants. Thanks.


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## snl

Michael Bush said:


> I don't see people who are treating losing less hives than those who are not so I fail to see the point of using a tactic that we know will not result in long term success when I don't even see any short term gain.


Are you advocating that we all not treat?


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## mathesonequip

snl: of course everybody in this section feels this way, the treatment free forum feels this way. for high mite counts recall dr. Connor's quote "dead hive flying". it is natural selection let them die.


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## Riverderwent

Harley Craig said:


> There is nothing you can give them and still be treatment free the whole concept is to let the bees take care of the problem. There are management techniques that give the bees an advantage like making late splits and over wintering nucs. If you can't stand to loose the weak ones and are anti chemical, maybe you will feel more comfortable with organic treatments. No shame in it if you do, beekeeping is very personal and very local


+1


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## wdale

Slow Done
Here is a email post that I was looking at the other day would this be treatment free? looks like to be Bio form of treatment for mites?

>>>>>Hi Dale

We are currently doing a large scale trial in Chilliwack and on Salt Spring Island. Scientific lab research is currently ongoing at Texas A and M, U Cal Davis, and Oregon State.

Our current application is 150 ml per hive, or about 4,500 mites.

Because Honey Bees are not native, and are considered “livestock” by Ag Canada, any control is Veterinary, so, we are not actively selling or promoting sales.

That being said, Stratiolaelaps scimitus was first discovered in the Fraser Valley, so, it is truly native. It is actively being used in field crops for Black Vine Root Weevil control. There is nothing stopping you from purchasing it for your garden.

Brian Spencer

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dale Kearns
Sent: August-05-14 9:05 PM
To: Brian Spencer
Subject: Contact Form Email from Dale Kearns


Name: Dale Kearns
Email: [email protected]
Adress: 10966 Jay Cres Surrey BC
Phone: 604 582 4081

Message:
________________________________________

Hi 

Could you contact me in this product of pest control Stratiolaelaps scimitus that could be used to control of Honey Bee Mites :\"Varroa and Tracheal Mites\" 
I have one hive out two that I would like experiment with 
I have read about this pest control may work and would like to try out? 

Thanks 
Dale 


****


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## Oldtimer

If they are not self sustaining but have to be periodically added, it's a treatment.

Also, there have been a number of threads on Beesource with a bunch of people deciding to add them to their hives and arguing with all comers that it will work. After the argument in some of these threads I would have thought that if the method had been successful, some of these folks would have been falling over themselves to get back here and say so. None have. Ever.


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## Slow Drone

I know it by Hypoaspis Miles. Stratiolaelaps Scimitus is the new name they've reclassified them. I've seen first hand the damage they can inflict on varroa and shb of all places in Lodi Ohio. Not as effective as some treatments but don't miss it by much. They were purchased in KY. Stratiolaelaps is a naturally occurring beneficial but the trick is to have it naturally occur in a concentration to be considered TF. wdale I'll try to email you this evening once I finish a few other things.


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## KQ6AR

Closest thing to a non treatment/treatment would be to remove or confine the queen for 21 days.


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## beemandan

To the original poster....I applaud you for taking the initiative to test.


Michael Bush said:


> What often appears to be the case is that beginning beekeepers have made the decision TO treat without understanding that this may STILL involve losing colonies in what can potentially become a disappointing and expensive process while contaminating their equipment and often losing their principles on the way...


Exactly!
Many new treatment free beekeepers follow the example of their online mentors/gurus. 'I don't test or treat and mites aren't a problem for me.' And then when the newcomer's hive is in a full and undeniable collapse, they buy or concoct some treatment. Then....when that doesn't resurrect their failing hive....they often insist that they treated and the hive still failed.



fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> My advice, do nothing, do what you want to be .


This may be the best advice given in this thread. If you treat now....and your hive fails....you'll never know which killed it. If you don't treat and your hive thrives....you'll know you didn't need to. 
My advice....keep your principles and do not treat. Then let us how it worked out next Spring.


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## Solomon Parker

dsegrest said:


> You can do this by getting rid of the old queen and getting a new one.


Why on earth would you get rid of the queen? You want to just toss out a queen that seems to be getting the job done and replace her with a queen from who knows where? As a purveyor of TF methodologies, I must in no uncertain terms say *don't do that*, unless there is something obviously wrong with her or the hive she is living in. A fundamental goal of TF is to develop bees with genetics that help them deal with the mites and if you kill a queen, _you have killed the hive_. Put a new queen in there, and it's a different hive. That's the TF perspective.




snl said:


> Are you advocating that we all not treat?


Yes.

This is the Treatment-Free Beekeeping Forum. Would it be hard for beekeeping professionals? Absolutely. Would it result in millions of hives dying over the first couple years? I'd say so. But mites will be done and gone as a major problem in beekeeping in a relatively short time. The bees will not go extinct. Many beekeepers will not be affected whatsoever.


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## Oldtimer

Wow Solomon I don't think you have a clue.

Before commenting on what the professionals should be doing you should try commercial beekeeping for a year or two, maybe get a job with someone. You will be amazed how the experience would expand your universe.


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## Solomon Parker

Slow Drone said:


> Look up powder sugar dusting for mite control.





Bigfish said:


> Is that not a treatment? ... Does it really work?


It is. Not really.


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## Terry C

Michael Bush said:


> What often appears to be the case is that beginning beekeepers have made the decision TO treat without understanding that this may STILL involve losing colonies in what can potentially become a disappointing and expensive process while contaminating their equipment and often losing their principles on the way...


 Well , the jury is still out here at The 12 Acre Wood ... right now I'm thinking that before I make a decision I need to see if I have a problem - which means I need to do the sugar shake test . A recent "sticky paper" test I think is probably not conclusive . I don't want to treat , but if it means the difference in losing my first hive , I'll do it . I need to find out if my queen has VSH lineage , for one thing . If she's not , my next one will be - and from there I think I might have to learn how to breed my own queens .


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## Bigfish

WOW, thanks everyone for the input!

I decided not to treat with anything, huge brood break instead.

I split the hive into 4-3 frame mating nucs and 1-8 frame three high hive.
Each nuc received a frame of eggs and/or really small larvae, a frame of capped /emerging brood and a wet frame from the last extraction with a half cup of pollen nuggets sprinkled on it.
The 3 high 8 frame hive is in the original hive spot and has the OG Queen, 2 mediums of drawn comb (no eggs, larvae or capped brood), 1-8 frame medium of wet comb with 1 cup of pollen nuggets sprinkled on the outside frames. Bees are covering every square inch of all frames.

I hope this works. I will post back with the results.


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## JWChesnut

I don't see how that works. Even if **everything** goes perfectly, you won't hatch new brood from the queenless splits until the end of September. I've been keeping bees on the California coast for decades, and I don't try to make queenless splits in the second half of August. You may have beginners luck, but it seems pretty dicey to me. The usual outcome with tiny, struggling nucs in the fall is a quick, complete rob-out. You will know fairly quick, because commonly the hungry nuc just eats the larvae.


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## Solomon Parker

I must agree. This is the wrong time to be doing splits in the northern hemisphere.


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## squarepeg

Terry C said:


> Well , the jury is still out here at The 12 Acre Wood ... right now I'm thinking that before I make a decision I need to see if I have a problem - which means I need to do the sugar shake test . A recent "sticky paper" test I think is probably not conclusive . I don't want to treat , but if it means the difference in losing my first hive , I'll do it . I need to find out if my queen has VSH lineage , for one thing . If she's not , my next one will be - and from there I think I might have to learn how to breed my own queens .


excellent plan terry, good luck.


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## mathesonequip

terry; if you have a high mite load [likely] and a VSH queen your capped brood, especialy the drone brood will be spotty, some may show being opened and resealed. breeding your own VSH queens is trickey, a small guy can not control the drones.


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## crofter

If you have a mite situation where they are overloading the best of VSH and other defences, the resulting spotty brood as described by mathesonequip can make you incorrectly think you have a poor queen. Colony growth can stand still or start to go downhill. 

A person can take the position that if the bees cannot handle a mite situation their genetics is not up to par. The real cause may be some condition the beekeeper induced that does not give them and the mites a level playing field. Sometime the season does not allow much time to wait and see what will happen.


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## BeeGhost

I agree with JWChestnut, this is really late to make splits without a mated queen. Even without the first bee hatching out in late September, you have to worry about the drone pool right NOW. My hives are kicking drones out at a brisk pace, VERY few drones in the hives, and even then, they are probably booted out by now. 

If you have 30 mites in a half cup of bees and leave it unchecked........I will make you a bet that hive would be dead before Halloween. Been there...........done that...........hated it.

If you made splits the queen should be getting ready to hatch now and mate next week...............you might be able to squeak by...........gonna be interesting on the outcome, keep us posted!!


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## Bigfish

> The usual outcome with tiny, struggling nucs in the fall is a quick, complete rob-out. You will know fairly quick, because commonly the hungry nuc just eats the larvae.


That is pretty much what happened, except I think the bees in the nuc joined forces with the robbers. after three days there was not a drop of honey and no bees left. So I killed about four frames of brood. 

On the other hand the queen in the parent hive started laying immediately in the empty combs. She now has almost five frames like this.







I don't know if the queen missed all those cells or the bees hatched out. I should have looked more closely today. 

Here is a couple pictures of the queen. She is going into her second California winter. Is it normal for the wings to get tattered like that?
















I did another sugar roll today and only found 3 mites! I hope this hive makes it to spring.


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## Juhani Lunden

Bigfish said:


> Here is a couple pictures of the queen. She is going into her second California winter. Is it normal for the wings to get tattered like that?


I think she has had some rough times during introducing because she has no hair on her back (and damage in wings).
I would not except normal full performance from her.


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## callyNY

I've read through this entire thread and I am wondering - has anyone started with regular Italian package bees, not treated them for varroa, but also not requeened or done other hive manipulating, and had the hives survive multiple years and, therefore, naturally become mite-resistant?

I have four very robust hives - two are two years old, started from local bees, and two I started this spring from package bees. Last fall, I powder-sugar-dusted those two hives for three successive weeks in late Sept/early Oct. They came through the winter gangbusters.

I know that hives 3 &4 have mites from the sticky paper. 

Anyway, I'm thinking of not treating any of them this fall. For those who don't treat, did you start like this?


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## StevenG

:scratch: I and a couple of others on this forum who repeat this refrain just don't understand. Why do people continue to buy treated bees, and think they can go treatment free? If you do not START with treatment free bees from a breeder who breeds bees without treatments, why in the world would you think you could go treatment free and have the colonies survive? 

If you start with bees that come from treated bees, the best and to my knowledge only way to successfully transition to treatment free without the hive crashing is to requeen with a treatment free queen. It does not matter how good your current queen is. By not being treatment free herself, she does not have the genetics to pass on to her offspring. Thus the hive will not survive long term. It is all a matter of the genetics and hygiene of the bees, not whether or not you decide to treat. And why try to develop your own strain of treatment free bees? Why reinvent the wheel, when some breeders have already paid that price and have a product that works? 
Regards,
Steven


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## squarepeg

very true steven. the other scenario that reportedly plays out for some is that they start with treatment free bees which do well off treatments for a year or two and then crash. the thinking is that the original genetics get diluted after the original queen is replaced a time or two and the resistance is lost. it appears that this is more likely to happen when the colonies are located within flying distance of large treated yards vs. more isolated locations that may be supporting surviving ferals in the nearby woods. in the case of the former it may be necessary to requeen from the tf supplier each year to maintain the resistant traits.


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## mathesonequip

a lot of the treatment free mystique has to do with management not genetics. if you are selling treatment free bees and are splitting for more nucs to the maximum, the brood breaks and newer brood comb can go a long way toward controlling varroa and other problems. it is the management program not magic bees.


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## Juhani Lunden

mathesonequip said:


> a lot of the treatment free mystique has to do with management not genetics. if you are selling treatment free bees and are splitting for more nucs to the maximum, the brood breaks and newer brood comb can go a long way toward controlling varroa and other problems. it is the management program not magic bees.


This is true to some extent but have you ever done any calculations how many generations you can manage with just splitting?


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## squarepeg

mathesonequip said:


> a lot of the treatment free mystique has to do with management not genetics. if you are selling treatment free bees and are splitting for more nucs to the maximum, the brood breaks and newer brood comb can go a long way toward controlling varroa and other problems. it is the management program not magic bees.


hmm. i believe it's more likely that it's combination of management and genetics plus location and feeding practices. unfortunately most of the information on all of this is anecdotal and it seems we have a ways to go to understand it.


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## crofter

I doubt that resistant genetics is immediately altered by a few rounds of treatment; but by the same token, not treating will not instantly make the bees mite tolerant.


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## callyNY

Well, perhaps I can help you understand. Since I didn't KNOW there was such a thing as treatment free bees, that is why in the world I didn't buy them.

I don't think most new beekeepers can easily find this information. New beekeepers like myself try to find a local beekeepers club and/or local mentor, to help us acquire our first bees. Mine is a lovely man, who happens to treat his varroa with mite-away strips. 

Then I learn that his winter losses were above 25% and so I ask myself why and start reading more and stumbling on sites like this, hoping to find helpful guidance. And, although I bought some of those strips, the smell of them made me dizzy, so I couldn't bear to put them on my hives. 

That is why I was asking what to do now and your answer apparently is to replace my queens. It's probably too late in the year to do that now, so I guess I'll have to figure out what to do to get them through the winter. 



StevenG said:


> :scratch: I and a couple of others on this forum who repeat this refrain just don't understand. Why do people continue to buy treated bees, and think they can go treatment free? If you do not START with treatment free bees from a breeder who breeds bees without treatments, why in the world would you think you could go treatment free and have the colonies survive?
> 
> If you start with bees that come from treated bees, the best and to my knowledge only way to successfully transition to treatment free without the hive crashing is to requeen with a treatment free queen. It does not matter how good your current queen is. By not being treatment free herself, she does not have the genetics to pass on to her offspring. Thus the hive will not survive long term. It is all a matter of the genetics and hygiene of the bees, not whether or not you decide to treat. And why try to develop your own strain of treatment free bees? Why reinvent the wheel, when some breeders have already paid that price and have a product that works?
> Regards,
> Steven


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## Slow Drone

It is extremely difficult to find true treatment free bees. Just cause Bubba didn't treat last year won't give him treatment free bees. So be careful if you do find bees that they claim to be treatment free. Some think treating with EOs is treatment free but that's not the case. If I were to start from packages and could not find treatment free bees those using EOs would be your next best option. Treatment free beekeeping is very rarely is achieved without monetary loses or a large amount of work ( aggressive splitting). As some here have pointed out and it stands true there is no single magic bullet to achieving treatment free success it is a combination of many things. The assumption that you set up bee hives and leave them alone and they prosper is a disaster in the making. Some luck out and that works out for them but it will catch up to you if you don't stay on top of things.


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## Michael Bush

>I've read through this entire thread and I am wondering - has anyone started with regular Italian package bees, not treated them for varroa, but also not requeened or done other hive manipulating, and had the hives survive multiple years and, therefore, naturally become mite-resistant?

I have started with regular Italian package bees, put them on natural comb and small cell and not treated for Varroa and had no Varroa issues. It was not a matter of them becoming anything. Winter is my issue. It's hard to buy packages that can take the cold here. Local ferals are adapted to the climate (by adapted, I mean the ones that can't survive did not...). Bees don't "become" mite-resistant. The bees that are not, die. The bees that are not able to winter, die. The bees that can survive do and produce more bees that can survive...


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## callyNY

It sounds like my best option is to do my powdered-sugar dusting for this year, spend my cold upstate NY winter reading about how to migrate to small-cell natural comb, and work with my hives that survive (last year 2 out of 2 survived, now I have 4 and imagine I won't be so lucky again). It's too bad that beekeepers' clubs don't seem to be interested in un-treated beekeeping, but that's probably another thread.

P.S. to Slow Drone - is EO essential oils?


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## Slow Drone

Yes essential oils. When going treatment free whether packages are treated with whatever or not treated really isn't the key it's a combination of things as others have stated you can only attempt to stack the deck in yours and the bees favor. I have similar experiences as Michael Bush has stated but I can't single out just one dominant factor. The most dominant factors in my case has been luck, patience, an open mind, a thirst for knowledge( I don't care if you are treatment free or not I can learn something from everyone) a good understanding of beekeeping and I'm not afraid of hard work or getting stung. Just a small example I could write a list a mile long as to what might contribute to being treatment free for over 12 yrs. I have years of experience with commercial operations, years of treatment experience, years of experience with EOs, a lifetime of open mindedness and have concluded treatment free is where I've done my best and I most enjoy.


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## estreya

CallyNY, i understand completely the frustrations you're experiencing, and i happen to share them. It's unsettling to read something that seems to contain the subtext, "What kind of numbskull are you to think perpetually treated bees could survive without treatment?" ~ doink ~ 

From the perspective of another novice, there's likely to be only a handful of "bee vendors" in our respective areas from which we can purchase our packages and/or nucleus colonies. Without exception, ALL of those vendors are likely to champion how magnificent their bees are, and will not "advertise" the fact that they've been treating their bees annually for as long as they've been in business. When someone wants to keep bees, the amount of new information to process is staggering, and it's only in the first year of "hands-on" that we may realize how utterly imperative it is to have selected bees of a certain genetic line. We may think that at their core, bees are wild creatures who somehow manage to survive in nature, so how hard could it be to get them to survive in a cozy little box in our backyards? How quickly we learn. And yes, many of us would have made different choices from the get go. But when we know better, we DO better.

So you grumpy experts you ... cut us a little slack, ya?


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## sqkcrk

callyNY said:


> It's too bad that beekeepers' clubs don't seem to be interested in un-treated beekeeping, but that's probably another thread.


You just haven't found the right club, your tribe. You and other treatment free beekeepers are a minority w/in the beekeeping community and most beekeepers don't know how to relate to you and don't have answers for you which fit your chosen philosophy. Start your own club.


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## sqkcrk

estreya said:


> So you grumpy experts you ... cut us a little slack, ya?


Respect.


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## Slow Drone

Each club has their own philosophy and there is several different ones in each club. It is difficult to find a club open minded enough let alone people that understand there's more than one way to keep bees. Some that treat share the same ignorance that some that don't treat and that's their way is the only way. Anyone with any small amount of common sense that has read more than one article out of more than one forum can figure out there's more than just their way. Whether you start with bees that are treated or not Italians or not it doesn't matter what matters is decide on whether you want to treat or not it's that simple. Doesn't matter how Joe Blowhard keeps his bees they're his bees keep bees the way you want to adjust and adapt as you go along. Beesource is for everyone treatment or treatment free! Ignorance and a narrow mind is not a formula for success in any profession. I've been in beekeeping over fifty years and am really concern with the narrow mindedness nowadays. Used to be six beekeepers could get together and argue method and ideaology but we always had a respect for one another and never took the cheap shots that I see people on here constantly taking. Boils down to ego issues that simple. I enjoy sharing my experience I enjoy learning new or different ways I do not enjoy childish cheap shots. If people aren't interested in learning or sharing there is no point in them participating in any of these forums.


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## squarepeg

estreya said:


> From the perspective of another novice, there's likely to be only a handful of "bee vendors" in our respective areas from which we can purchase our packages and/or nucleus colonies. Without exception, ALL of those vendors are likely to champion how magnificent their bees are, and will not "advertise" the fact that they've been treating their bees annually for as long as they've been in business. When someone wants to keep bees, the amount of new information to process is staggering, and it's only in the first year of "hands-on" that we may realize how utterly imperative it is to have selected bees of a certain genetic line. We may think that at their core, bees are wild creatures who somehow manage to survive in nature, so how hard could it be to get them to survive in a cozy little box in our backyards? How quickly we learn. And yes, many of us would have made different choices from the get go. But when we know better, we DO better.



:applause:


speaking from the position of one who made the absolute worst choice possible in the beginning with regard to doing business with a 'reputable' supplier all i can say is 'amen'.

for me it was wasn't that hard to chalk it all up to the cost of education although i was a little miffed about having to burn equipment, not to mention the way i was strung along with 'i'll make those up' which never happened. in the end i feel that i gained more than i lost and the experience made me all the more determined to dig in and figure it out.

i'm not convinced treatment free is possible in all locations. the absence of ferals in an area for example would suggest to me that the natural forage may not be adequate and/or the genetic pool is too heavily influenced with nonresistant bees or perhaps there is some other factor preventing it.

not many of us have someone nearby demonstrating that it can be done successfully who can provide us with stock and proven management practices. if that's the case you might as well accept that you are attempting an experiment with an uncertain outcome and you are the one blazing the trail.

it's a worthy goal to be sure and there are enough successes to show that it is potentially achievable. i think it's wise to go into it with eyes wide open and with the mindset that there is no shame in reverting to treatments if all else fails.

i am a member of our local club but i'm one of the very few who isn't utilizing standard management practices, kind of a squarepeg you might say.


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## Slow Drone

Most intelligent thing I've heard in a good while squarepeg. That is the honest truth if I've ever heard it. I can tell you though more bee trees are being found in Alabama now then there has been in quite a while. I talked with a commercial beekeeper up around Montgomery and he was excited about finding a bee tree not far from him, he said it had been about 20 years since he saw one in that area. You should have seen the smile on his face.


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## squarepeg

Slow Drone said:


> Most intelligent thing I've heard in a good while squarepeg. That is the honest truth if I've ever heard it. I can tell you though more bee trees are being found in Alabama now then there has been in quite a while. I talked with a commercial beekeeper up around Montgomery and he was excited about finding a bee tree not far from him, he said it had been about 20 years since he saw one in that area. You should have seen the smile on his face.


many thanks sd. 

i had a similar report from the chief bee inspector for north carolina recently. he takes calls from logging companies when they fell a bee tree. he said they used to get a lot them years ago and then it stopped. it's only been in these last few years that he is starting to get the calls again. the cool thing is when that happens they turn it into a class for beginners and the bees get cut out and hived for the students to take home.


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## wdale

squarepeg and slow drone
when I was very young we used to keep bee (about 40 years ago) I know of one warm spring / summer we had a lots of swarms get away. I should review the history of the area to see if anyone has kept bees in that area since then. This area was land locked up until 1970s. I have been aback several years ago and found that there is still honey bees around in that valley.(my old home town) I may make a trip back up there next year. At that time I will look around for lost swarms. In the last few years I have heard stories that honey bee still exist. IF this the case we may of found TREATMENT FREE bees.
Dale


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## squarepeg

wdale,

that's how the tf bees i have got started. they were swarms that ended up in trees and through natural selection those with resistant traits survived and propagated in the wild. that would be awesome if you find them there. it is generally accepted that there are no feral bees in canada, but i'm not sure it's possible to rule them out for certain. take a few swarm traps with you when you go!


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## Slow Drone

wdale you just got me all excited for you! That is a true gold mine, makes me tingle all over oh yes! What bees surviving without treatment simply unimaginable! Sure hope you find some, sure wish I were there to see the pleased look on your face when you do. Some of your old bees maybe? That would be so cool! Please keep me appraised if you don't mind, you have my e-mail. My grandchildren say every time you see a bee it's like Christmas isn't it grandpa? They can see the obvious pleasure in my eyes.


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## callyNY

Thanks for all of these recent helpful posts (and fellow newbie estreya you expressed my thoughts so well!). I often feel I should follow my instincts in beekeeping, but I haven't been at it long enough to know if they're in the right direction. It would be sad if one of my hives failed because of my mismanagement, but I guess all experienced beekeepers have lost a hive or two in the course of their beekeeping.


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## StevenG

I meant no offense when I stated that I don't understand why folks buy treated bees and think they can go treatment free...some of those folks truly are "numbskulls," others are just ignorant. Ignorance is not a sin, unless one wallows in it.  I have learned to mostly keep my mouth shut at our beekeepers meetings because I am either the only one, or one of the few who is treatment free. I was devastated when I lost 30% this past winter, as my losses usually run 6-18%. I felt better (for myself, regretted it for him) when a large sideliner confessed to losing 60% this past winter, and he treats. 

It is becoming easier to find treatment free bees...best place to start is with the ads in ABJ or Bee Culture. Or ask here on the forum. But read the fine print! Some treat with EO's and claim to be treatment free. Also ask your breeder before you lay your money down, "How do you protect your bees from the mites?" A true TF breeder says "I do nothing, the bees do it all" (or some variant). I've found out, from a breeder who claimed to be TF, "You'll need to hit them with EO or powdered sugar in late summer or early fall." Well, those aren't TF bees! And when I got them home and did nothing, as I do with all my bees re: mites, two years later they crashed. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Adrian Quiney WI

There is another way for those in the north. If your beekeeping is predicated on keeping a colony in a box perpetually, as most systems are, then you are likely to suffer mite related crashes within 2 years with commercial stocks. The difficulties in keeping any stock of bees "pure" has been discussed here ad nauseam.
If you are prepared to move from this and use brood breaks, commercial stocks can be kept without treatments. Dedicate part of your apiary to producing honey with no expectation that those bees will survive. Dedicate another part to producing bees. 
http://www.mdasplitter.com/


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## Andrew Dewey

sqkcrk said:


> Respect.


Respect is earned. To get my respect new TF beekeepers need *to show* that they understand they are embarking on an agricultural endeavor and that there are no guarantees in agriculture. And that philosophy has to join with reality. Blind faith in the teachings of any demagogue is a quick way to fall from favor.

While some may call it semantics, all new beekeepers should be treated with courtesy.


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## mpgreer

Andrew Dewey said:


> ..., all new beekeepers should be treated with courtesy.


i'm not familiar with this courtesy(TM) treatment. is that some sort of acaricide?


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## Bigfish

StevenG said:


> :scratch: I and a couple of others on this forum who repeat this refrain just don't understand. Why do people continue to buy treated bees, and think they can go treatment free? If you do not START with treatment free bees from a breeder who breeds bees without treatments, why in the world would you think you could go treatment free and have the colonies survive?


OP here. My bees started out TF and did really well the first year. They re-queened themselves last spring and got hit hard with mites.

This is from my suppliers website.
"(Local Survivor Stock) Three Pound Package of workers with Local Open Mated Queen.
Locally adapted survivor stock. These queens are daughters of queens that have been living untreated for several years in our California Coastal climate."


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## estreya

Bigfish ...

Very interesting. I'll refrain from typing anything further.


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## Montana beekeeper

Let me begin apologizing for asking a seemingly dumb question that may have already been answered (two strikes?). Since oxalic acid is an organic compound found in nature, in rhubarb leaves and wood sorrel, is it considered an organic treatment or chemical treatment for combating mites? I'll duck now.


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## clyderoad

Montana: oxalic acid is not approved for use as a miticide in bee hives in the USA, yet.
It is approved in other countries though.
Having said that, it is used by some beekeepers to combat varroa in bee hives successfully.
My understanding is that most who use OA consider it a organic acid treatment as oppossed to a 
synthetic chemical miticide.
CNG (certified naturally grown, a group that promotes natural "farming" technicques) allows OA as
a varroa control method.
If I am misinformed in any of the above I expect I will be corrected by other members of BeeSource pretty quickly.

Don't apologize, welcome to beeSource.


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## Montana beekeeper

Thank you for the polite reply.


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## snl

From all my readings, ClydeRoad is spot on....


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## mathesonequip

since "organic" in the food sense is conformation to some made up set of standards, it is my understanding that oxalic acid is an aproved "organic" treatment in some parts of central and eastern Europe [and other places?]. in the usa we have NO official organic honey standard so no usa produced honey is 'organic". from a chemistry point of view oxalic acid is in the organic class of chemicals, that is made of carbon and hydrogen.


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## NeilV

Solomon Parker said:


> And, even if they did, why does that give you permission to do it also?


Cause might makes right, silly!!! How ya doing Sol, haven't heard from you in forever. Hope the mountains are suiting you.


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## Barry

Montana beekeeper said:


> Since oxalic acid is an organic compound found in nature, in rhubarb leaves and wood sorrel, is it considered an organic treatment or chemical treatment for combating mites?


It's considered A treatment and this forum is for non treatment.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?253066-Unique-Forum-Rules



> Oxalic Acid (dicarboxylic acid)


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## NeilV

Barry, I was just saying howdy to Sol. I'll leave now.


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## Oldtimer

Sol?

Montana Beekeeper you seem to have been silenced rather aggressively so just thought I would encourage you to speak up again, there must be some reason you asked the question. Treatments have to be discussed in other sections of Beesource not the treatment free section, but is there an issue with your hive? Please share there are people who can offer excellent advice.

To the opening poster of this thread Bigfish, if you are still around just wondering how it worked out?


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## Terry C

Is dousing them with powdered sugar so they'll groom , then counting mite fall on a sticky board considered a treatment or a diagnostic tool ?


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## JWChesnut

Oldtimer said:


> To the opening poster of this thread Bigfish, if you are still around just wondering how it worked out?


BigFish posted on the 101 thread on 1/20/15. He was active on 1/27. BigFish says he lost one of three, has orphaned honey from the loss, and is moving to "all mediums" in the future. http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-honey-back-to-the-bees&p=1208782#post1208782


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## mathesonequip

Terry C said:


> Is dousing them with powdered sugar so they'll groom , then counting mite fall on a sticky board considered a treatment or a diagnostic tool ?


it would be considered a not efficient use of your time.


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## Terry C

And why would it not be considered an efficient use of my time ? I'm retired and have time to do whatever I wish . And you didn't answer my question .


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## squarepeg

terry, the answer to your question is 'yes', for the purposes of this sub-forum, as laid out the 'unique forum rules' in the sticky thread here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?253066-Unique-Forum-Rules , using powdered sugar would be considered a 'treatment'. beyond here, i don't think there is a universally accepted definition of what 'treatment free beekeeping' is.


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## Oldtimer

If it's used as a diagnostic tool it's a diagnostic tool, if it's used as a treatment it's a treatment.

There is the whole rest of Beesource to discuss treatments so it is not unreasonable that the treatment free section be kept treatment free. Frustrating as it sometimes is but it has to be that way.


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## nater37

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Try researching VSH. I made the jump to VSH queens last season and added more queens this season. The improvement in my mite checks amazes me.
> 
> JMO
> 
> Rusty


Rusty have you noticed that your hives are a bit more aggressive? And if not. Where did you buy your queens?


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## Oldtimer

Oh and just last night I took a look at a Facebook page being run by an ex moderator and was surprised to discover my own name being bandied around and held up as an object of vilification, that's both my user name, and my real name.

Looking at the rest of the content of the site it made me realise just what a great site we have here in Beesource, mostly achieved by just the right balance of moderation. I guess other sites like the Facebook one have their place in the scheme of things, as assembly points for the malcontents and narrow minded to vent their spleens at each other.


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## jim lyon

Oldtimer said:


> Oh and just last night I took a look at a Facebook page being run by an ex moderator and was surprised to discover my own name being bandied around and held up as an object of vilification, that's both my user name, and my real name.
> 
> Looking at the rest of the content of the site it made me realise just what a great site we have here in Beesource, mostly achieved by just the right balance of moderation. I guess other sites like the Facebook one have their place in the scheme of things, as assembly points for the malcontents and narrow minded to vent their spleens at each other.


I blundered into a confrontation with an occasional Beesource contributor and a bit of a loose cannon over on Facebook myself. The guy felt the need to drop a few "F bombs" aimed at me in his rant......real mature. Decided to cut some ties with a few Facebook friends I respect just so I wouldn't have to read the blather and be tempted to do any more posting. Too bad it has to be that way.


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## squarepeg

Oldtimer said:


> There is the whole rest of Beesource to discuss treatments so it is not unreasonable that the treatment free section be kept treatment free.





Oldtimer said:


> ...mostly achieved by just the right balance of moderation.


i agree wholeheartedly ot.

i must admit that when i first joined bs i was against having these rules in place and even suggestedly privately that they should be dropped.

over time however i have seen how difficult it can be to have a discussion when every thread turns into a battle of wills, and it's been particularly disheartening to see a new poster blown out of the water for just asking a question. it's a pet peeve of mine to see someone trying to look big by making someone else look small.

i do believe the overall tone on the forum is improving over time as folks of different persuasions through the mostly constructive dialogue here are able understand the rationales for the different approaches. it's pretty clear that beekeeping will never be a one size fits all, and it's even more clear that not one among us has all of the answers.


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## mathesonequip

Terry C said:


> And why would it not be considered an efficient use of my time ? I'm retired and have time to do whatever I wish . And you didn't answer my question .


mostly ineffective.


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## Terry C

squarepeg said:


> terry, the answer to your question is 'yes', for the purposes of this sub-forum, as laid out the 'unique forum rules' in the sticky thread here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?253066-Unique-Forum-Rules , using powdered sugar would be considered a 'treatment'. beyond here, i don't think there is a universally accepted definition of what 'treatment free beekeeping' is.


 Thank you . My bees are from a local queen breeder and supplier that has not treated for like 12 years . He will do a "sugar shake" to check mite populations , but beyond that I don't know exactly what his definition of "treatment free" actually is . His genetics are based on Russian bees , don't know much beyond that . I have enough confidence in him that I plan to do a second split (first split in mid-April and they will make their own queen) in late May and purchase one of his queens for the new hive . This should give me enough genetic diversity -including whoever the queen my bees make mates with - that I won't have to purchase another queen for a couple of years . As long as this guy has been breeding bees - and he's only a few miles from me - his genetics should be out there "in the wild" , so the chances of my made queen mating with a bee from his lines is probably pretty good . 
Hope that makes sense ...


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## squarepeg

that makes perfect sense terry. it's lucky for you to have bees like that around. do you know what your supplier does with the information he gets from his sugar shake? i.e. i would be interested in knowing what he does if he finds a colony with a high mite population.


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## Terry C

squarepeg said:


> that makes perfect sense terry. it's lucky for you to have bees like that around. do you know what your supplier does with the information he gets from his sugar shake? i.e. i would be interested in knowing what he does if he finds a colony with a high mite population.


 Well , he did recommend repeated powdered sugar applications in the hive to promote grooming and thereby knock down mite populations - this was in late fall when they were building winter bee brood and made sense since there would be a natural brood break . And one other tool he uses is to stab drone brood with his uncapping fork and pull them to check for mites . I have several - and plan to modify more - deep frames with partial sheets of foundation to encourage them to make their own foundation ... hopefully drone brood foundation . I'm slightly more knowledgeable this year , at about "advanced beginner" level - but I have people like AR Beekeeper living close enough to hold my hand a bit while I try not to kill my colony .


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## nater37

Oldtimer said:


> Oh and just last night I took a look at a Facebook page being run by an ex moderator and was surprised to discover my own name being bandied around and held up as an object of vilification, that's both my user name, and my real name.
> 
> Looking at the rest of the content of the site it made me realise just what a great site we have here in Beesource, mostly achieved by just the right balance of moderation. I guess other sites like the Facebook one have their place in the scheme of things, as assembly points for the malcontents and narrow minded to vent their spleens at each other.


Only place you can go and have 500 so called friends you could careless about seeing.


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## Barry

jim lyon said:


> Decided to cut some ties with a few Facebook friends I respect just so I wouldn't have to read the blather and be tempted to do any more posting. Too bad it has to be that way.


Don't want to derail this thread. I've dealt with this by simply putting those names on my FB block list so I don't read them and they don't read me. It's the friends of friends that I do this for.


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