# Foundationless Frames



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

A question for everyone and anyone:

I was thinking of running foundationless Langs but I've been told by extremely knowledgeable people (formerly commercial/organic) that the bees would take much longer to draw out comb this way and would slow things down quite a bit.

What has been your experience?


----------



## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I think they draw it out faster! The only thing I'd suggest is that you alternate foundationless with drawn comb so they have something to guide them. I made the mistake of having two foundationless next to each other and the girls built the comb sideways! No big deal; I just cut it off, turned it in the right direction on one of the frames and elastic banded it in place until the girls can shore it up.


----------



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Yes, 'll I run foundation in one hive and no foundation in another to compare. But of course it wouldn't be a scientific experiment - just to satisfy initial curiousity. 

Oldtimer, I don't know why I'd even fuss with wire in the frame. I'd just let them build comb, and come what may, I'd straighten it out if need be.


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Stone, I run all foundationless medium boxes, however, I am starting to wire all my extracting frames just to give them more strength in the extractor. John


----------



## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Ran some of both this year. I believe that they drew out the foundationless faster. I don't think they like empty space in the hive. The trick to not getting comb out of line is to be sure you are level in all directions! I have also had them draw them crossways. Spun some this year to see if they would hold together (no wires) and they did just fine.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

I have a couple langs with only foundation-less frames.

long as there is ample forage and the need to store it, bees will draw out without foundation just as quick as with.

If you are using an extractor, preventing blowouts is worthwhile if you plan to re use the comb. if you make cut comb or crush and strain, no need to bother with it really. 

Just my two cent.

Big Bear


----------



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

What do you use for a starter on the top bars? Popsicle sticks? I was thinking of just rubbing some beeswax along the groove and see if they'd build from that? It would save me the labor of gluing in the sticks. What do you think?

And the thought of wiring all my frames gives me nightmares!


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Stone, for a comb guide I take a pine 1x8 that is about 16 inches long and rip 1/8" strips off the edge of the board on my table saw. I glue them in the groove on the top bar using Titebond III glue, then I brush on liquid beeswax to coat the strip both sides. I extract medium frames that don't have wires and they extract fine, only thing I do is extract first side halfway, then do other side completely, then go back and do remaining honey in first side. John


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

I use wedge top frames and just break the wedge, inserting it sideways next to the other.

works perfectly for me


----------



## Nate Ellis (Jun 28, 2008)

I use to cut deep pierco sheets into thin strips with tin snips and beeswax them in. Now I dont use anything - no blow outs using my hand crank extractor either.


----------



## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

I rip thin strips of wood on the bandsaw and glue them in the top slot. I tried inserting a foundationless frame between two drawn foundation frames and the bees drew it out perfectly as you can see here.
http://picasaweb.google.com/MichaelJShantz/BeeHive4302010#5511013238632102354


----------



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Since I've only used TBHs I don't even know what a wedge type frame is? Do you have a photo of one?


----------



## tmk (Aug 20, 2010)

Description of wedge frame here (with pictures)

http://www.americanbeejournal.com/site/epage/84393_828.htm

-tmk


----------



## kenr (Sep 25, 2005)

I just got my order from Kellys foundationless frames great design.I put ten frames on my hive Friday ran a line of honey along the top 12oz honeybears tops works great for this.


----------



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Never heard of Kelleys. Can you give me a link?


----------



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Tmk,

Thanks for the wedge frame link. But I still can't make out from the drawings what that top bar looks like after the wood is broken off. Never saw an illustration that shows this. Is there something in the middle of the top bar that protrudes a little (like a popsicle stick) that the bees can use as a guide for comb building?


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

wedge top frame

If you look about halfway down the page, you will se a wedge top frame that is un assembled. might give you a better idea of what to look for.

Big Bear


----------



## kenr (Sep 25, 2005)

Stone www.kelleybees.com


----------



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Kelley's site must be down. I can't get any images at all!


----------



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Bigbear,

Thanks. I know this site and what wedges look like. I was more interested in what the standard commercial wedge type looks like close up.


----------



## corkerjoe (Jan 29, 2009)

I personally have not done this but I know lady that cuts her foundation into 1 inch strips,removes the wedge, places the foundation in, then nails the wedge back in, to hold the starter strip in place. She says it works great. I know she sells a lot of cut-comb, so I don't know about extraction.


----------



## Ardilla (Jul 17, 2006)

I really like the Walter Kelley foundationless frames. I will gladly pay the extra few cents per frame to not have to do the comb guides myself anymore.

All things being equal, the bees draw the foundationless comb as fast or faster than with foundation. Even if they were a little slower with foundationless I would still do it this way...


----------



## Reid (Dec 3, 2008)

Stone said:


> A question for everyone and anyone:
> 
> I was thinking of running foundationless Langs but I've been told by extremely knowledgeable people (formerly commercial/organic) that the bees would take much longer to draw out comb this way and would slow things down quite a bit.
> 
> What has been your experience?


No, the opposite. 
I have 15 foundationless colonies and 10 nucs that are all foundationless.
When I was first getting started with foundationless I installed 4 packages; 2 on wax foundation, 2 foundationless. 
The foundationless colonies had their first deep 90% drawn 1 week before the wax foundation colonies got to the same point. Same feed. Packaged bees from the same source.
No, not a definitive study, but good enough for my purposes. Since then I've found that with good weather the bees are drawing out the first full deep in 7 to 10 days. 
This year was really cool in the spring and it took 2.5 weeks, which was still faster than other beeks new wax foundation colonies.

Why is it faster? Observations alone might provide the anwser. By my observations there is significantly better focus to the constructive efforts of a foundationless frame. All the bees are festooning on the leading edge of the comb being drawn. Those cells on the leading edge are being built faster and thus are obviously at a minimum functional state much more quickely than on foundation of any kind. A good example is like people building a brick wall. If everyone was scattered over a large area efficiency breaks down. Case in point, if you do removals check out the brood pattern of a newly swarmed colony (say less than 1.5 months old). The brood is in age bands like an upside down rainbow. Each band is nearly the same width on each section of new comb. As more comb becomes available this rainbow pattern breaks down as the queen cannot cover all the newly drawn cells and is laying in old cells as well. Then you'll get full frames of brood. 
Is there a benifit to such an initial brood pattern for a young colony? Obviously the sooner a queen is laying eggs the better, but does the banded pattern itself increase the efficiencly of managing the uncapped brood? I don't know. Time will tell.
~Reid


----------



## Pugs (Jul 15, 2004)

I was reading in the POV section of Bee Source and found Charles Martin Simon who invented the SuperUnfoundation bee frame. From the bio - 

"In 1990, he invented and began marketing world-wide the SuperUnfoundation bee frame. This was well-received and selling well when the price of wood doubled and then tripled. It suddenly cost more for the raw materials than he could get selling the finished frames, and he was out of business. " Link to the bio here :
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/charles-martin-simon/

Link to his website with a drawing of it :
http://www.charlesmartinsimon.com/frameinstructions.htm

Of course Michael Bush points out on his website that Langstroth had them too. "L.L. Langstroth has pictures of this design in the original "Langstroth's Hive and the Honey Bee" which you can still buy as a reprint. 

We keep reinventing the wheel.

Pugs


----------



## BearHill (Dec 31, 2009)

I've been using 1/2" to 1" starter strips for several years now and love them. And midway through the summer, I started using fishing line instead of wire to support the wax. Fishing line is so much easier to handle than wire.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Pugs,
I don't think it's reinventing foundationless frames, just rediscovering them. I highly appreciate all the ingenious effort that has gone before, I am just mystified that foundationless frames have not remained, "mainstream" since they were initially invented. It is only recently that one main beekeeping supply house, "Walter T. Kelley, Co.", has again began distributing their incarnation of the idea.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> I think the advent of chemical varroa treatment is one of the drivers behind the re-emergence of foundationless combs, some people don't want to introduce the remains of those chemicals to their hive, via comb foundation.


I think that is a big part of the equation as well. using wax that has the junk in it from before to start off thinking it's "clean" is not a savory thought for folks who are trying to avoid it to begin with..

It's almost inevitable that bees will bring those synthetic chemicals over time, using foundationless is merely one way to minimize their presence.

Big Bear


----------



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

bigbearomaha said:


> I think that is a big part of the equation as well. using wax that has the junk in it from before to start off thinking it's "clean" is not a savory thought for folks who are trying to avoid it to begin with..
> Big Bear


I used to think this way too. Recently, I had a talk with a former commercial beekeeper who is certified in the Demeter method of beekeeping (It is my understanding that this certification does not come easy.) - who had me start thinking a little differently. 

http://demeter.net/standards/st_bees_e.pdf

He uses commercial foundation. When I spoke to him about the concern you mentioned above, his reply was that the levels of pesticides in wax foundation were in the parts per TRILLION - not a great concern. I haven't looked at any scientific data on this, but if this is truly a fact, it introduces another way of looking at this.

He also believes foundationless is a waste of time because - he says - the bees take longer to draw freestyle comb than to draw in foundation. I can't accept this until I see scientific proof of it. 

I like the idea that the bees have free choice to draw whatever cells they like and whatever sizes they like.

By the way, there have been studies that conclusively prove that cell size has ABSOLUTELY no affect on varroa control. Just to a simple search.


----------



## JC55 (Mar 11, 2009)

My hives are a mixture of each-found that the foundationless draws out just as fast as foundation-like the Kelleys frames and have been just purchasing those.


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Stone said:


> I When I spoke to him about the concern you mentioned above, his reply was that the levels of pesticides in wax foundation were in the parts per TRILLION


Stone, I would distrust his information. Research at the University of Georgia found pesticide residue in wax from hives that were untreated with any pesticides as follows:

coumaphos (512 & 870 PPB)
fluvalinate (1820 & 2500 PPB)

That's parts per billion, not trillion (and this in treatment-free hives.).

A Penn State study of commercial hives found: "all comb and foundation wax samples (98%) were contaminated with up to 204 and 94 ppm, respectively, of fluvalinate and coumaphos..."

That's parts per million, NOT trillion.

Wayne


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Stone said:


> By the way, there have been studies that conclusively prove that cell size has ABSOLUTELY no affect on varroa control. Just to a simple search.


At the Maine Beekeepers convention, I heard Jennifer Berry highlight her conclusions that cell size "has ABSOLUTELY no affect on varroa control." (What's with the capitalization? Screaming adds nothing to the validity of an argument.) I've also attended a conference where her study's methodologies were ripped to tatters. 

Given the few studies that were done, which dispute the notion of small-cell inhibiting Varroa populations, and the number of small-cell proponents I've met, including commercial operators, who run treatment-free small cell hives, the jury is still out as far as whether my colonies will benefit from small cell. I am planning to try it with 10 new colonies next year, starting packages on small-cell foundation in a new yard.

I just hope the bees don't read the studies and the nay-sayer posts here.

Wayne


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Just wondering how there could be coumaphos and fluvalinate contamination in wax from untreated hives?


The hypothosis includes drifting of bees from treated colonies and bees picking up residues left on plants by other bees from treated hives.

The levels of residues detected in the wax of treatment-free hives were still significantley less than the wax found in commercial wax, so I guess that would be one benefit. Seems like in this day and age, no one can escape the chemicals completely.

Wayne


----------



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Wayne,

This IS a revelation. And thank you for that.

I'm going to go with no foundation - which is my first instinct. But many on this thread have advised that a foundationless frame should be interspersed with another one with foundation to assure there isn't a mess. I run top bar hives and never had a problem with this so I wonder if this really is an issue in Langs. 

Any comments?


----------



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Wayne,

I never knew capitalization denotes screaming. I don't like being screamed at or screaming at anyone either. As a teacher of nearly 30 years, I found reasoning works far better. My apologies if I offended. On the other hand....no need to be so sensitive, Wayne .


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

It's been interesting to read the historical data about the cell-size debate. It has generated a lot of impassioned messages for a long time. Bee World found it necessary to append to an article about cell-size: 

"We understand that M. Baudoux welcomes criticism, as long as it is of a constructive nature, and offered by persons who have tried, or are prepared to try, the large cell foundation for themselves. We are convinced that this method of improving the bee deserves to be considered very seriously." 

That was in 1934, M. Baudoux was Prof. Ursmar Baudoux, a bee researcher and proponent of artifically enlarging the natural-sized comb (what is now known as small cell) to what many people mistakenly believe is the size comb that bees naturally produce, the comb that manufacturers have been making and selling for decades, an artifically large cell. Seems like there were a lot of people opposed to this radical manipulation even though they had no first-hand knowledge of the subject.

There were a lot of people on the fence back in those days too, apparently. Many unwilling to switch from the cell size that nature had been producing for many thousands of years to the unnaturally large size that some scientists and bee supply manufacturers were pushing. Even though I wasn't around for those arguments, I think it's funny how things have come around in a full circle.

You can read a lot of material on the early cell size debate here on Beesource in the POV section Thanks to Barry for archiving it,

Wayne


----------



## CAHighwind (Jun 9, 2010)

About foundationless...

I've been filling my langs up with foundationless. All I do is assemble a normal frame, then just run a short bead of melted wax in the top groove where the foundation would have slid in. Just about 5 or 6 inches. That's it, and it's worked perfectly without mucking around with starter strips, wedges, and all that jazz. Means it takes me about 5 minutes to prep 20 frames at a time. 80+ frames done like that so far and all is well. Lil' buggers build out the frames fast. Laziness is the mother of... of how I get things done.


----------



## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

Well I decide to try foundationless frames. I installed them every other frame mixed in with capped brood, honey/pollen and empy plastic white (which sucks).

I installed them around 3 pm yesterday afternoon. I used wedge top bar, glueing a 1/4 to 1/2 inch strip of cardboard across each frame then heated up some beeswax and painted each strip really good.

Results today, 9 out of 10 frames had section of comb built on the foundationless. there were 2 to 5 sections hanging about 5 inches down about 2 to 3 inches wide. So in my opinion, they fill it out faster. They did not touch the white plastic 1 piece frames at all. Matter of fact I replaced half the hive with the foundationless because alls they did was build bridge and burr comb on the white 1 piece frames (peirco sp sucks). Hard to find the queen in that mess, always hiding behind it....and the honey super I wont even go there.

Chris


----------



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Oldtimer,

Back to the idea of alternating foundation with foundationless frames in a box: Seems there are many opinions and just filling a box with no foundation and some sort of guide on the top bar works just fine. No need to fuss with foundation. What is your take on this?


----------



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Cool.


----------



## MTINAZ (Jan 15, 2010)

I went from 6 to 17 hives this year with most having at least some foundationless and a few all foundationless. I would say they draw foundationless faster. When you open it up there is just a huge mass of bees building the comb and on the foundation just bees spread out almost each building a little bit. I will say some hives are much much better at building nice strait comb than others. I had one or two hives that I had to break down the comb and reposition the frames several times to get them to go even kinda of strait.


----------



## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

I decided to try foundationless last year. I had a lot of imperfections. Incompletely drawn, they'd draw out the adjoining frame and fill the space, crooked, an open edge left around 3 sides etc.

The only ones I got to come out right were in a honey super and between CAPPED frames.

If the foundationless frame is between 2 capped frames - they are unlikely to uncap the other one to draw it more. They'll usually just draw it right.

They still drew it all in drone size cells, but that does not matter. They were clear and straight.


----------



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Troy,

Could you give a little more detail to your description? I find it hard to understand/follow. Thanks.


----------



## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

Sure more detail.....

What I have seen with the foundationless (FL) frames is that they don't always draw it straight.

Often they will just ignore the space in the FL frame and continue to draw the next one over to double width. This is a mess as you cannot pull the FL frame out now because the other one is double width. It is an awful mess.

The key to getting them to do it right is to put the FL frame in the hive between two frames that are already capped. It can be capped brood or capped honey doesn't matter. They are much more likely to draw it straight if they are constrained on both sides by capped frames.

One way I have found to do this with some success is to let them fill a super and get it mostly capped. Then bring in another super take 5 frames out and alternate the frames of capped honey with FL frames in both boxes. If they are on a flow and ready to draw out the new frames, then they are more likely to draw it nicely.

I also alternate them from the top box to the one below. In other words if the lower box has capped honey in position 1, 3, 5, 7,9 then in the upper box I will put them at 2, 4, 6, 8, 10. I'm not sure if this helps or not - it is just what I did with some success.

Also, I have found that in the brood nest they are likely to not draw the frame completely. They seem to prefer to leave the sides and bottom open to crawl around. Not a big deal, but if you want nice fully drawn frames, I've had better luck putting them in the super. If they draw drone sized cells and fill it with honey it is perfectly fine. In the brood nest if they draw 5 frames of drone cells it is too much and they don't have enough brood space for worker brood.


----------



## Duboisi (Oct 7, 2009)

Stone said:


> Wayne,
> 
> I never knew capitalization denotes screaming. I don't like being screamed at or screaming at anyone either. As a teacher of nearly 30 years, I found reasoning works far better. My apologies if I offended. On the other hand....no need to be so sensitive, Wayne .


t:
To emphasize a word, without "yelling", you may use stars, like *this*.


----------



## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

ChristopherA said:


> Well I decide to try foundationless frames. I installed them every other frame mixed in with capped brood, honey/pollen and empy plastic white (which sucks).
> 
> I installed them around 3 pm yesterday afternoon. I used wedge top bar, glueing a 1/4 to 1/2 inch strip of cardboard across each frame then heated up some beeswax and painted each strip really good.
> 
> ...


Chris: Can't agreee more about solid white plastic frames!! My bees and I hate the things. Tryed something this year-I cut the foundation out leaving about an 1/2" of plastic on the top and a bit on the sides rubbed some wax on the top strip and put the frame between two drawn honey frames. The bees drew out perfectly. Prior to this the bees would not touch this white plastic frame. Give it a try.


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

My experience has been if you put foundationless between two drawn brood frames it gets drawn beautifully, if you put a foundationless between two capped honey frames it gets drawn beautifully also, as long as a flow is on. If you put a foundationless between two honey frames that are not capped, they will tend to draw out the combs on either side of the foundationess thicker to store more honey in rather than draw out the foundationless. I found this latter case to be the norm regardless of having a heavy flow or not. Your best combs in terms of straightness and mostly worker cell will be drawn in the brood chamber, preferrably in the lower boxes of the brood chamber. John


----------



## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Oldtimer said:


> Old story, most people dislike change, me included!
> 
> Here's another one I heard the other day. "If there are 4 beekeepers in a room, there will be 5 opinions"!:lpf:


And none of those opinions are wrong. The trick is to go with the one that makes sense to you and if that doesn't work, try one of the other opinions!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A bead of wax, in my experience is just a mild suggestion, not a comb guide. I like a triangle 1" by 3/4" by 3/4" the best, but at least a raised ridge that is at least 3/8" or so by 1/8" or so. Sometimes bees will follow the bead fine. I've done hives where I put one drawn comb in the center and no guides at all just to see how they would space them and they draw beautiful comb. but some will not. I've had the best luck with a strong comb guide. I have used everything from nothing at all, to a bead of wax, to a starter strip, to a wood strip, to a triangular guide with angles all the way from 12 degrees to 45 degrees. I have done thousands of them over the last 36 years. If you really want to avoid the grief of messed up combs, use a good comb guide. The easiest is to just buy the foundationless frames from Walter T. Kelley, or buy regular wedge top bar frames and break out the top bar and turn it 90 degrees and glue and nail it back in. I don't mess with starter strips anymore, they are too much work and when they get hot they fall out sometimes and they are not permanent. Wood is fairly permanent while wax is not at all.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As far as speed, in my experience they draw foundationless much faster than foundation. They do it with enthusiasm probably because it is their method of building comb (festooning bees working on both sides at the same time while communicating on the leading edge) and it's their cell size, variable according to their needs.


----------



## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

My first foundationless medium super (with popsicle stick guides and 1 mid-positioned 'ladder' frame with wax foundation) is doing ok. At first the bees drew: a big wad of krazy komb which I cut out, and now they are slowly drawing straight combs instead. I was watching them at first and caught the crazy comb before it had advanced so much as to be unremovable. It was mostly spanning two frames, and beginning to attach to a third frame. Still easy enough to pull out and cut off, though. 

I went to a bee club meeting this week and there were several members who complained about having an entire foundationless box filled with a giant mess of loopy comb so they couldn't even remove any frames, but I got the impression that they were not monitoring for several weeks and thus didn't catch it early. By the time they've filled a whole box the situation would be really messy and difficult. At this point in the Fall season, people were now going to just leave the maniacal boxes as is for the winter and figure out what to do in the Spring.
I think the trick is to take a peek more often at first until the combs are well on the way and looking straight. It's easy to cut out wacky comb when it's still manageable.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've seen boxes of foundation that got hot and buckled. They were an even bigger mess and harder to cut out. If you get crooked combs, do a cut out. It has been the way to get straight combs in a frame since frames were invented...


----------



## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

Well I have been doing mostly foundationless since my last post, however not for current use. I have enough comb and stores for winter, so I have been producing come for next years crop of bees. So I can help the nucs and if I decide to buy packages or catch some swarms, make it a little easier for them to get started. 

I have not had any floppy foundationless yet. Almost all comb seems to be pretty solid and I remove it before they start putting to much stores or laying brood. Set it outside during the day and let the bees clean it off then to the freezer it goes for next year. 

I think this will be a yearly thing.

You have mating boxes, queen boxes....hell might as well have comb building boxes.


----------

