# Queen looks mated but throwing only drones



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Drone laying queens are queens that mated late or queens that ran out of sperm. They are pretty much normal in size. A late mated queen is somewhat oddly shaped being a bit fatter at the point where the abdomen meets the thorax and a bit more pointy. One that has run out of sperm looks perfectly normal. Any queen that lays eggs has been mated. It's a question of when (the first 21 days or after) or if they have run out of sperm.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks for that info. She looks perfectly shaped. I guess if she's a drone layer then she must have mated too late. Still kind of puzzled why that would have happened. Got many other queens successfully mated during the same time period.


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## Annabee (Jul 25, 2013)

So a queen who lays, _must _have mated at some point, for sure? This is really important for one of my own hives ...

I had heard a non mated queen would just start laying and be a drone layer.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

I have also had laying queens become drone layers later in the season- or the following Spring. Poorly mated- just ran out of juice as MB said


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

winevines said:


> I have also had laying queens become drone layers later in the season- or the following Spring. Poorly mated- just ran out of juice as MB said


Yes, I've seen them run out and start throwing drones, but this queen is for sure new last month. I see the cell she emerged from off the frame of eggs I gave them. She looks SO normal. In fact, if I had purchased her I would be smiling because she's so nice looking (big and nicely shaped). That's why part of me believes that its the colony, which was queenless far longer than normal due to the failed cut-down.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

how long has she been hatched ?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I just pinched a nice large queen from a spring package, she looked every bit normal, but her egg laying went downhill and was only laying drones the last couple weeks.


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

I also received one drone layer -- appeared fine ---laid well. Except no workers were capped.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I had a drone layer queen from last Fall when she was laying well this Spring. Then suddenly she turn into a
drone layer. That was when I caged her so that I can make more nucs before the hive was full of drones.
From this hive I have 4 colonies now with well mated queens. She is dead now. But she appeared just normal big
and healthy just like what you described. It is time to get a new queen or combine this hive.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Anabee- 

Queens are female bees raised from fertilized eggs, having 16 chromosomes from her father, 16 from her mother queen, totaling 32 chromosomes and are referred to as "diploid". Queens are raised on food (royal jelly) that is substantially higher quality than that food fed to worker females. This royal jelly develops the queen's ovaries, and a number of other morphological differences from worker females, including a spermatheca, where sperm and semen from her mating flight (or flights - she may make more than one mating flight) are stored for the rest of her life or until they are depleted.

Drones are male bees grown from unfertilized eggs, hence are "haploid", having only 16 chromosomes from their mother, and essentially no father.

Check out on Google, the keywords, "drone life cycle" and look up the related articles.

Beepro - once they go Laying Worker don't combine them. They are difficult to deal with, and combining them can cause a huge fight. Drone layer yes, Laying Worker no.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I have one that I don't think ever laid an egg of any kind, and another that laid 6-8 square inches and stopped. Both looked perfectly normal although the second one has gotten long and thin. Very weird. Neither hive will start cells when given brood.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yep, I have seen stranger things that happened in the world of beekeeping. Weirder things had
happened to me already. Dealing with LWs I give them an about to hatch qc. Then she will lay
good worker eggs to out live the LWs later on. So far 3 LW hives had been saved this way. I will never
combine a laying worker hive that they will kill off each others. I had done a shook out before but that
did not help much. Only by a giving them a good laying queen will help for the long term livelihood of the colony.


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## Annabee (Jul 25, 2013)

My question was just will a non mated queen start to lay at all.

I realize the differences of them though. I have a queen with questionable mating history that IS laying, that was the reason for my wondering. 





kilocharlie said:


> Anabee-
> 
> Queens are female bees raised from fertilized eggs, having 16 chromosomes from her father, 16 from her mother queen, totaling 32 chromosomes and are referred to as "diploid". Queens are raised on food (royal jelly) that is substantially higher quality than that food fed to worker females. This royal jelly develops the queen's ovaries, and a number of other morphological differences from worker females, including a spermatheca, where sperm and semen from her mating flight (or flights - she may make more than one mating flight) are stored for the rest of her life or until they are depleted.
> 
> ...


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Annabee - The answers you are getting are complicated because while the simple answer to your question could be "maybe." An emphatic "No!" Would be simplistic.

An unmated queen could not lay fertilized worker eggs, but could she lay drone eggs? I for one don't know, but I don't suspect that is what you meant by your question any way. An unmated queen will never be useful for a rank and file beekeeper. But If your queen has laid any worker brood at all then she IS mated. Poorly perhaps, but mated nonetheless.


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## Annabee (Jul 25, 2013)

I think my curiosity on it is really, if she has never flown and mated, would she even be inclined TO lay?

And there's likely different answers for different queens on that, really.

My mistake I believe was allowing this new package to supercede -- the original queen had some brood going, and I think they were over anxious. If I had removed all queen cells instead of allowing them to do what they thought best, the colony might be strong now. However, you never know .. most of the bees did drift to the other hive, so ... there might really have been something failing with that queen too. 

It's all a learning experience


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

It is possible to have a good queen and laying workers if the queen hatched or was introduced too late. I've had some where I had a mass of laying workers concurrently with a good queen. What I see in that case is worker brood amongst drone brood and drone brood spread throughout the whole hive. It takes a few weeks for things to get straightened out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So a queen who lays, must have mated at some point, for sure? This is really important for one of my own hives ...
> I had heard a non mated queen would just start laying and be a drone layer. 

I have had queens with crumpled wings who could not mate. None of them ever laid an egg. I have had queens that mated late, they become drone layers. It is a common belief that queens who don't mate will become drone layers. I have not found this to be true. Queens that don't mate, in my experience, never lay.

Huber came to the same conclusions.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Well, Annabee, allow me to qualify something - SOME bees DO exhibit parthenogenisis. I believe that race (or perhaps species?) of bees is in South Africa. Being that other Hymnopera can do it, it would not surprise me if the trait isn't distributed about a bit more than we realize. It has been a while since I read about them, and I don't remember all the details, so I will look them up again.

Also, we notice that Queens impregnated by Instrumental Insemination may or may not go on mating flights after being inseminated. I suspect it has something to do with the 2 exposures to CO2 intended to bring about oviposition. Technically speaking, the ones that were inseminated and did not go on mating flights did not mate, yet lay plenty of worker brood or drone brood as they see fit. This point may be moot in relation to your question, but I include it as it may still give some insight as to what goes on in the bee world.

Interesting that you do track your queens mating flights! I think you are headed for an interesting beekeeping career.

Beepro - great way to handle LW's! Thank you for sharing that. 
I've tried separating them into 1-frame colonies and ellinating the offenders, while combining the bees on frames that had no eggs, innundating them with QMP, queen juice, and pheromones, shakeouts up to 500 yards. So far, the "divide-and-destroy" approach has had the least negative effect, but I will try adding a mature queen cell.

How long before things return to normal if the "treatment" is successful? I guessing about 6 weeks?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

KC, when giving them a mature qc be sure to protect the cell otherwise they 
will not hesitate to destroy it. I had also loss many qcs this way. 
Even a mated queen will destroy these qcs without regard. I had seen this happened
right in front of me on a hive check.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

beepro said:


> when giving them a mature qc be sure to protect the cell otherwise they
> will not hesitate to destroy it.


I've never tried a queen cell on a LW colony. I generally have very little patience in dealing with LW colonies and as such don't throw resources at them. However, I've got some spare cells that emerge Friday and the colony that I reference above needs help. Perhaps I'll take a gamble and try your approach. Do you use the JZBZ cell protectors or something else to protect the cells?


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

I found a laying worker colony last week that apparently had a queen disappear on mating flight. I gave them a frame of eggs and a 2 day old queen cell. When I checked a few days later they were about the cap the cell. We'll see what happens. I'll probably just keep adding cells until one takes.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

The culprit:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

AstroBee said:


> Do you use the JZBZ cell protectors or something else to protect the cells?



No, not a Jzbz cell protector. I'm cheap so everything is either home made like a window screen mini cell cage or
a real hair roller cage to protect the cell. I found that a virgin hatching out this way the bees are willingly to accept
her versus a newly hatched queen from another hive. Because my situation is trying to requeen a hive but the virgin
failed to come back from her mating flight. This prolong the requeen process that they balled and killed many mated queens that
I put in there later on. This experiment worked for me so far. 
Now to think about it I can also use a widow screen to cage the entire frame with newly emerged young bees with the queen
cell added. I also saw a thread here using aluminum wrap to protect the cell too leaving a tip open for her to come out.
Try it and let us know how it work out for you.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks again, Beepro. That makes a case to routinely run a small number of queen cells, probably not a bad idea in any case, but especially so if a hive goes LW. I may start keeping a couple of little nuc' starter/finishers like David LaFerney's post re. Joseph Clemen's method. I'll have to go make up a 5- or 6-frame size Cloake Board.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

The smoking gun:



I dissected the spermatheca and found it crystal clear.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Well, no smoke in THAT gun  ...probably not an NRA member! She either had a headache  or mated up there around Three Mile Island with those sterile drones.:waiting:


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