# Switching back to solid Bottom boards Screened bottom boards are not worth it



## RayMarler

I agree, and have discontinued making SBB's here. What I've also seen, is the bees covering the SBB's trying to close off the ventilation in the early and mid spring. I think they do better with the solid bottoms. I've been drilling 3/4" holes in the front of the hives at the base of the hand hold for ventilation. I'm seeing that the bees prefer the holes vs. the wide open front board entrance also.


----------



## StevenG

I'm conflicted on this... I switched from solid to screened bb a few years ago... generally do not have to scrape clean the sbb like I had to scrape the solid bb. As I don't treat for mites, or do drone removal, I suspect the sbb are a help for the bees in controlling the mites. I generally close them off in the winter. Now that I have them, I'll keep using them until they need to be replaced, or I notice the bees trying to close them up...that hasn't happened yet.
Regards,
Steven


----------



## Charlie B

I've never had a hive try to close up a SBB. In my foggy climate, they're a huge help with ventilation. I'm not sure they're that effective against mites but anything you can do helps.


----------



## spunky

Yea, I am not sure they are that big of weapon in mite control. I will keep the three I have, but I will build some solid bottoms for this winter. My nucs all have solid attached bottoms with a 7/8 round entrance . I will leave them on for sugar dusting this august


----------



## Vance G

All bee keeping is local. For some parts of the country, they may indeed be the best thing since sliced bread, but my bees struggle to maintain heat in their living area for eight or nine months a year The few 100 degree days we see may be followed by a 45 or fifty degree night. I think in those conditions, staggering a honey super so it has a 1/4 inch opening front and back are far better for ventilation than no floor and draft where the babies are raised. How many times do you hear of someone in the cool part of the country lamenting that their 3 frame colony just won't take off in the spring? DUH!


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Beekeeping is a revolving art. People are constantly rethinking and reworking the concepts proven and disproven years ago. 

Remember a few years ago when they said to remove the bottom board all together, leave it open. Then they said, bees can't control the humidity as well when evaporating nectar and you would not get as much honey from hives with no bottom board, then they said screen them.

One thing I know for sure, I have never seen a screened bottom board on a tree, a house, a water tank, a combine head, the deck of a boat, etc, and the bees did just fine. 

Do what works for you.

cchoganjr


----------



## Katharina

I think they are great. There were two studies that said it reduces the mite count by up to 15%. All I know it that I had very low mite counts compared to other beeks in our club that used solid ones. Perhaps it also has to do with what climate you live in. They are costly, but you can take a solid one, cut out an opening and cover it with mesh. Anyway, no right or wrong just do what works best for your setup.


----------



## BayHighlandBees

there was a study in quebec where they discovered that screened bottom boards are effective with mites if the bottom is closed; however, when the bottom is left open it actually significantly increases mites (in that the screen changes the hive to be a more simulating habitat for mites to grow and thrive)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNGi07Bkivnk-xbFBYvJg7q3Pe31kg&cad=rja


----------



## millerwb

Where I am in TX where it is already hitting 90 in the day and staying 75+ most night, I am using them to aid in ventilation. Using 2x lumber and 1x4s, I actually spend less on a sbb that a solid one. I don't know if they help much with mites though.


----------



## throrope

Great thread:thumbsup:

After I saw a basket ball size cluster under my BeeMax open bottom board where the mites would fall, I didn't bother with them thereafter. Fads come and go. Best to listen to the girls and do what you find most successful.


----------



## KQ6AR

I have about 20 SBB's & will probably never go back to solid.
Use them to check mite counts, lower mite levels with powdered sugar, increase ventilation. Only thing we use solid ones for are swarm traps, & catching swarms.
You might want to start a poll on this topic, for people who have used them a few years to vote on.


----------



## xcugat

A fast way to check mite counts is a sugar roll and that requires no real special equipment. As for the powdered sugar, I think the jury is still out on the efficacy. I thought there was a study last year that said it helped but not hugely? 

As for ventilation I can see them being a help in a hot climate like California but not here in the north east


----------



## psisk

Down here in Florida I use only screened bottoms. The girls need all the air they can get most days. We had almost no winter this year and rarely get below 20 degrees ever and usually not below freezing much. I know it helps with mite counts, just dont know how much. But every mite gone is one less to breed. I make all my equipment and it takes a lot less to make a screen bottom than it does a solid one. 

psisk


----------



## StevenG

Winter was mild this year, so I didn't bother to close mine off. But I suspect a colder winter in Missouri would necessitate closing them off. As hot as it gets in this state in the summer, mine seem to be beneficial to the bees.... yes, all beekeeping is local.
Regards,
Steven


----------



## NasalSponge

Interesting thread, I have been pondering this for some time and I am going to put some of my hives back on solid boards. My worry is that with that much open space it takes the control of ventilation away from the bees.


----------



## huffmanbeekeeping

I have fifteen hives and only use screened bottoms and don't bother closing them in the winter.
North eastern ohio


----------



## Michael Bush

>What says the board? 

I agree. I still have 50 SBB and will continue to use them but started buying solid, mostly because I can use them as feeders and they don't cost any more.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#bottom


----------



## cbinstrasburg

NasalSponge said:


> Interesting thread, I have been pondering this for some time and I am going to put some of my hives back on solid boards. My worry is that with that much open space it takes the control of ventilation away from the bees.


why not put a 3" or so hole in the plywood under the screen rather than having the bottom open?
Carl


----------



## Zonker

I'm confused by the Quebec study. How can a closed screened bottom be good for mite control but an open screened bottom be bad? Isn't a closed screened bottom a solid bottom?


----------



## Intheswamp

I agree with the "beekeeping is local" statements. Here in the hot and humid south I think the sbb is good for the bees. As for taking too much control away from the bees in regards to evaporating nectar down to honey...Thursday I helped my mentor pull honey off of two of his hives...120# off of one hive and 80# off of another one...both hives were double deeps and we left one super on each that wasn't quiet capped off as well as he wanted it to be. We've had a very nice, moist (for a change) spring this year...not an overly dry period of time that might have helped with evaporation. The sbb did not seem to hamper the bees. And, the honey we extracted seemed to have a good moisture %...









My mentor has no problem with mites. His only treatment is powdered sugar dusting.

Just a newbee's comments here...carry on. 
Ed


----------



## Ross

I use them and build them, but I think top venting is more important here year around. My strongest hives have the crappiest tops, rotted holes, etc. They winter the best too. I'm pretty sure it helps with moisture in the winter. The bottom board doesn't seem to matter as much.


----------



## Ross

One place screens can be really beneficial here is moving hives in the heat.


----------



## psisk

Another thing down here with a solid bottom is that the SHB will thrive on a solid bottom amid the debris if you dont have very hygenic bees. 

psisk


----------



## stevedc

psisk, Michael Bush was talking in another thread about doing a test hive with different debris in the bottom like a tree hive would have. His thinking is that the SHB would live in that rather than going up into the comb.


----------



## xcugat

Let me tell you about debris! if you leave the cloroplast slide in tray in and wax debris falls through the screen but stops at the tray, it creates the *perfect* place for wax moths to live as the bees cant get in there to defend the area, and I would assume shb would love it also, though I cant say that I have seen them myself in my area


----------



## johns bees

I have both half of my hives are on solidbb and the other half are SBB. Here in washington where it is cold and wet I am finding that the hives with the solidbb are further along than the ones with SBB. Just my two cents.
.


----------



## Michael Bush

I have moved more towards solid bottoms in recent years, but that's because I'm cheap and I can convert the solid bottoms to feeders. 

All the feral removals I've done in old hollow trees had a pile of debris at the bottom that was full of wax moth larvae and the bees seemed totally uninterested in them. They were also uninterested in the ants, roaches and beetles that were there as well. I see no issue with the wax moths living below the SBB as it's just like the debris in a natural hive and seems to do no harm.


----------



## broodhead

Well, looks like you finally figured it out!!! SBB=HYPE!!!!
Look at the brood patterns of your frames between the SBB and the Solid BB, you definately will see a difference. As far as mite counts go there is little difference, not worth it. Develop a protocol for treatment and keep it simple. I do have a few SBB nuc boxes, not fully screened, but partial and also have a vent hole in the upper nuc body. I only do this because I am in South Florida and I have better results starting splits in high temp months.


----------



## The Honey Girl's Boy

I have SBB with sliding boards under the screen on all my hives. Warres, Top Bars, and Langs. I leave the sliding boards in all the time year around except for mite inspection and pulling them out a couple of inches for ventilation on hot days. Here in the Pacific Northwest it only gets hot enough for that a few days a year. The statement, “I don’t see SBB in the feral colonies in nature, so they can’t be all that great” isn’t really a very strong argument against them. Pretty much nothing we keep bees in or do to them exists in nature. The last hive I lost to mites was 3 years ago and it was a solid bottom board. Nearly all my hives have Varroa mite populations in them. I don’t treat any of them unless I see the population getting out of control. Then I treat with powdered sugar and that has only happened twice in the 3 years since I switched over to SBBs. My personal philosophy is that all healthy colonies can have a small mite population and that I will do far more damage to the health of the hive by treating with chemicals trying to get it to zero mites. I am actually a keeper that researches and reads scientific studies on bee keeping. I have studies indicating that the rate of natural mite drop can reach more then 25% population. There are formulas for counting the mite drop on the sticky paper from a 24 hour drop and multiplying for the population level in the hive. No brainer for me- if I can kill ¼ of the mites in my colonies 24 hours a day, 7 days a week year around for free, without lifting a finger, I’m there.


----------



## BeeGhost

I run all SBB and I love them. I enjoy making them as well. I just get scraps of plywood and cut them the same dimensions as a hive body plus a 2" landing board. Then I cut out a square in the bottom about the size of 6 frames (brood area) and staple on 3/4" pieces of wood for the hive body to rest on, staple the wire on and its light and works great!


----------



## Charlie B

If you staple another screen on the bottom you'll have a double screen bottom board that works great for splits, combining hives and placing weaker hives on top of stronger hives for heat.


----------



## RobWok

I used screened bottom boards and oil trays. The screen is 1/6 instead of the 1/8 which is normal and 1/4 is too big. 

The benefit here is that both larva of wax moth and small hive beetle fall into the bottom. The hive beetle larva never make it out of my hive, and I catch a lot of adults in there too. I do see mites, but the hive beetle is what concerns me. I once was careless and moved a capped frame too close to a side of the box. The next time I came in and saw it, I pulled it out to check, fearing dead larva. Instead, it was a mass of beetle larva, so even the smallest mistake can create a lot of larva that could cause a problem.

I don't remove and clean the trays as often as I should but I do know they work fantastic when clean with liquid oil in them.


----------



## gmcharlie

FOr what its worth, there is another observation to consider, Queens don't seem to like to lay near the opening. they prefer darker areas. Queens on SBB seem to move up faster that queens on solids. Noted to me by a large beek in GA, and I am evalUATING his thoughts.


----------



## julysun

Well, the best this three hive owner, all new, with screened bottom boards can get from this thread is confusion. SBB can mean Screened or Solid, to add to my confusion. Was this just a fad? Many OTs (Old Timers) are switching, or at least not using more. I do wonder how much honey my girls are burning to stay warm, any studies of heat balance around bee hives? Of course here near Houston TX they are probably burning energy staying cool!


----------



## honeyman46408

Here are to ones I make with a pan for oil to catch SHBs and mites


----------



## westernbeekeeper

How in the world could you possibly accept such heresy as turning away from the Sacred Screened Bottom Boards?! I have been beekeeping for 3 years, have never run anything but screened BBs, and I have never had varroa mites.


----------



## julysun

Neat.


----------



## The Honey Girl's Boy

Screen bottom boards come in several different designs and applications. Minor changes to the several designs and applications being made by independent keepers and these variances being applied to regional conditions will produce, or in some cases, not produce a cornucopia of results. Basically SBBs come in 2 basic designs; a plain open screen floor with a frame around the edges holding the hive boxes or a screen floor with a sliding board under it, usually slid in and out from the back of the hive floor. As in all aspects of beekeeping, if it works for you and your style of keeping bees, it is a good idea. If you find no particular advantage to a method or accessory, then clearly, it is of no value to you personally. Identical SBBs being used exactly the same in Texas and in Maine will have clearly different effects on the hive colony. There isn’t an aspect of beekeeping that isn’t glorified or condemned depending on who you talk to. I have learned that advice from a keeper that will viciously malign some aspect or method of beekeeping is based personal opinion or misunderstanding. The greatest knowledge and insight I have received all my life in keeping bees came from keepers that warmly shared their experiences and insight with a level of care and respect for the diversity that is Beekeeping.


----------



## beedeetee

I bought them for several years, but I have started moving back to solid also. The nice things about them are that you can easily count mites and you don't have to be so worried about tilting your hive forward to drain water.

I hate painting them and the slides are all different, so if I take them out I have to experiment to figure out which slide fits which BB. I also kept the slides in after I noticed that the queen didn't lay as close to the bottom and that the solid bottom board hives seemed to have more brood, and started flying earlier in the day in the cool springs that we have.

I also noticed that if I used one on a cell builder with a Cloake Board that the forager bees can find their queen through the screen if the slide doesn't fit well (about half of mine).


----------



## Capricorn

I lost a nuc last winter to excess moisture. My fault, the hive wasn't slanted forward, it was actually slanted back, and it had a solid bottom. I found a small pool of water and frogs eggs in it.... It made me realize that I don't have to worry about that as much with a screened board.. I have a hive with a solid board, and it had a ton of crap on it come spring to clean out.. The screened boards weren't nearly as bad. Don't know about the mites... I just want to keep breeding from survivors and not worry about it too much.. who knows..


----------



## Vermillion

Most people here are using SBB with oil traps, yes, it is messy, costly, and yet also very effective at controlling SHB and mites as well. Beekeeping is so region-specific, but with SHB here now in great numbers, this extra effort has made it possible for many beeks to recover from last years losses. TBH users fit their hives with screened bottoms and oil trays too. its a nice setup. 


I particularly like that you know when you see a couple larvae in the tray, you need to pop the hive and see what is happening, and having that early detection system is very helpful...


----------



## cerezha

BeeGhost said:


> I run all SBB and I love them. I enjoy making them as well.


I use the same approach but I sandwich the screen board with solid board with 1/2" gap in between to accommodate the sticky board. Sticky board is just piece of white plastic with some oil. One could put a piece of wood in the gap between sticky board and screen to close it completely. For beginners like myself, screen bottom is very educational - I could count mites, see what else is on the board: crumbs of wax (remodeling?), droppings from wax moth (attention!), pollen (protein)... I am using the mesh with smaller holes, so wax moth could not get inside. Mites comes through, no problem. It seems to me that screen with my design (smaller holes) is quite effective against mites - bees walk easily on the screen and drop the mites. Since screen is always crowded, it is high chance for mites to get through the screen. I also think that screen must be sandwiched with solid board. Sergey


----------



## jimbe

If beeks are using a tray under their screen bottom boards to catch and kill mites and/or shb, how does the sbb function as a ventilation method? So it is used as a pest trap and not for ventilation? I know there is much disagreement as to whether the extra ventilation is good or bad anyway. Since I want to be treatment-free, I suppose the pest trap use of the screen board makes the most sense, forget about it as a ventilation method, use the tray/oil to keep the shb from getting to the ground for their life-cycle. 
Has anyone tried the sbb from beetlejail that has a finer screen over most of the bottom for mite drop and the standard 1/8" screen at the back into a trap for shb? I've been to their site but can't find a price on it...only the beetlejail small traps. I saw this sbb on a youtube video...it seems like a good idea. Then you could have ventilation, mite drop, and shb trapping! Jim


----------



## GregBeekeeper

I agree and certainly don't winter my bees on open mesh floors.


----------



## casinoken

I agree with some of the other Southern posters. In the south, the sbb is a godsend. I use the Rossman sbb with SHB trap. It is the greatest thing since slice bread!!!! LOL Mites and SHB simply fall to their deaths. Also, the screening offers ventilation for our long hot summers. Just my thoughts.


----------



## Paul McCarty

Here in NM I normally just use a solid bottom or a bottom with screened vent holes cut in it. Can't tell whether a screened bottom makes a diference for mites as I have not had huge issues with them. Nor do we seem to have SHB. 

Now, ants, that is another story. They love those screened bottoms, at least where I live.


----------



## Gypsi

I'm making more sbb's. I can make them for about $6 with a white plastic sticky - not pretty enough to sell to anyone, but helps with heat, ventilation, snapshot of what is going on in the hive. I have 2 hives not on them at the moment. One is on a solid board with a 3 inch hole in the middle that is screened with #8, (former hogan trap bb), and one is just an old solid board. And the ONLY way I can see what is going on in those 2 is to open them up. Which I do not always have time for at the right time of day. Have pics to upload, was chasing my thread.


----------



## jimsteelejr

All we have ever used is sbb Because that is what we were taught when we started. Most everyone I know with bees are hobbiests with less than 10 hives each. It is certainly easier and cheaper to make sbb and when we go collect a swarm or a feral hive it keeps the bees cool when we close up the entrance to put them in the back seat. When we went to Miskas last week to get a couple of queens I noticed that all of his hives that he is producing to sell have solid bottoms. I did not think to ask him why. Any way when we start some more splits in the spring I will try a couple of solid bottoms.
I think the mite issue is not going to be solved with chemicals or even mechanical changes like the bottom boards. Ulitimately the bees will adapt. Queen breeders need to breed for mite resistance and researchers need to look for natural preditors on the mites.
Remember there are many different ways to keep bees so do what works best for you and don't be afraid to experiment


----------



## cerezha

xcugat said:


> ...it creates the *perfect* place for wax moths to live as the bees cant get in there to defend the area...


As everything in beekeeping, it depends. If one has a sandwich,screen and solid bottom, the gap needs to be filled ether with sticky (really sticky) board or welcoming pan with oil. In winter, the gap may be closed if necessary. It does not make any sense to me to have a screen and empty board. Sticky board is cheap and easy to use. I normally use the propaganda signs for this. 
on the general note, my two permitted beehives are doing very well for couple of years (1 year with me). One of the hives has a steady 50 mites/24h counts and produces a lot of honey; it is 6 mediums tall and actually needed another super. Another hive has 7 mites/24h and never produce any honey at all. Both hives have screen-solid sandwiched bottoms. My observation is that bees are very instrumental in regulating "ventilation" - they block inner cover screened hole (the chimney) if necessary - much more efficient than do something with bottom screen. Sergey


----------



## rbsteve

Agree with bee keeping being location driven. In Northern Calif. heat is the the big thing along with enough water for the bees. I use the screened bottom to help with heat. Almost never have my bees hanging on the side of hive when temps plus 100. Not so sure about the mite control thou.


----------



## BEES4U

xcugat said:


> A fast way to check mite counts is a sugar roll and that requires no real special equipment. As for the powdered sugar, I think the jury is still out on the efficacy. I thought there was a study last year that said it helped but not hugely?
> 
> As for ventilation I can see them being a help in a hot climate like California but not here in the north east


In southern California we have the Argentine ant to deal with and a screened bottom would be an open invitation for disaster!


----------



## wanderyr

All three of my hives have open SBB's, no sticky paper, no oil, just open to the air all year. Live near Reno; winters are ~20-deg F at night, ~40-deg during the day, give or take... No condensation problems in Reno 

My bees have overwintered just fine, even with fully open screens. I haven't done comparisons to solid bottom boards yet. I am concerned about what one poster said, regarding the bees trying to cover the entire screen. I haven't noticed this, but I've never looked for it either, and I expect I wouldn't notice without looking directly into the entrance...

So, now I'll start looking!

If all else is equal between the two types of bottoms, I would keep the SBB's because of the moisture issues and because I don't have to worry about overheating if I have to seal up a hive...

My $0.02


----------



## cerezha

BEES4U said:


> In southern California we have the Argentine ant to deal with and a screened bottom would be an open invitation for disaster!


 Not true if sticky board or oil pan used beneath of the screen. I do not see how solid board would prevent ants from entering the beehive. I am in LA area and know perfectly (from my own experience) that only oil traps could stop these nasty creatures!


----------

