# Indoor wintering



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

For the few guys here that do winter indoors,
a basic question.

What temperature do you prefer to hold the wintering chamber at? Why not colder, why not warmer?

At that temp, what kind of hive activity do you expect? I mean bees up and walking around.
About how many barrels of bees have you swept up til now, and how many do you usually expect to sweep up in a full winter?

Reason I ask, is my bees seem to be stirred up a bit more than I am use to. I think. The only difference I can see this winter is I am holding my temp at 4 degrees C instead of 2 degrees like last year. Also I think I have more bees in my boxes. Many of my hives have clusters hanging out the fount. I winter in doubles.
Disease levels are all low, except v mites, around the 3%

If I could get a little feed back, that would be great!

Thanks


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I try to keep the wintering room between 6 - 8 C. I used to keep in much cooler, around 1 C as that was suppose to be the temperature that bees consumed the least amount of feed. The problem I had at this temperature was that sometime small hives starved away from the feed even though feed was present. I slowly start increasing the temperature over several winters and I no longer have small hives that starve with feed present. I now move them out so they can die outside in spring lol. I also think bees have an easier time liquefying honey and not as many bees pile up on the landing board at warmer temp.

Never paid too much attention to bee activity. I know if I open the big door to get out the snow blower or skid steer there are a number bees that fly out right away. Never been concerned about this, maybe I should be.

Last year I had bees hanging on the outside as well as my hives were very large going in. Higher humidity as well as higher temps can contribute to this as well. My hives are singles though. Feed (or lack of it) can bee an issue with big hives as singles, don`t know about doubles. Some of my hives had bees on the outside all winter but things turned out alright -- I had 97% survival last winter. Don`t know if I`ll ever match that.

Last year, if I recall correctly I had 3 barrels of dead bees from 600 hives.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Allen Martens said:


> I had 97% survival last winter. Don`t know if I`ll ever match that..


Nice!


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## Tim Stewart (Jul 19, 2009)

I recently read 50 years among the bees and Miller says that higher temperatures up to about 55-60F keep losses low but requires more feed, while lower temperatures near feedng cost more hives but less feed. I have never done it, but that's what I read.

Tim Stewart

Stewart's Apiaries


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I agree Tim, though I don't think the feed consumption difference is huge. 60F is getting close to disaster temperatures. Hives can stand those temps for a couple of hours but probably going to sustain some losses. Any higher and bees begin to crawl--major mess and losses.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

I don't winter indoors, but my bees are out and about a @ 48F. Seem like they would be out flying a 55-60F. Could you not feed at those temps.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Temperature for feeding is not the issue. I was in my wintering room today scraping up dead bees off the floor. I had lowered the temperature down to about 36 F so the hives wouldn't be as easily disturbed. A number of the hives still had bees sitting on the outside and if I were to give them a boardman feeder they would take the feed. Wet feed creates dysentery and other disease problems. So I feed them early enough in fall so they can dry the feed down. When talking about needing more feed, I'm referring to more feed required in fall and therefore a greater expense.

As far as flying at 55-60 F, the bees in the wintering room are crowded into rows, stacked, and kept in the dark. (Ian has some good pics on his website.) If the bees come out of the hives they are not going back in. Only a matter of time before they perish.

Ian,

About a barrel and a half of dead bees so far this year.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

i read that when scraping up the dead bees in the wintering room, one should wear a mask due to the mold spores. if i remember correctly it is because they are more concentrated, the spores can do more damage to the lungs faster. Have you heard this and what is your opinion?


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I've heard this and that is one reason I scrap up the bees as opposed to sweeping them. Ever since I started scrapping I don't notice dust coming up from the bees. Cleaning the bees up more often before they dry up too much helps as well. Personally, I think a beekeeper gets exposed to much, much more bee dust and spores cleaning up deadouts than scraping dead bees off the floor. 

Bit of a red herring. My $0.02.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>(Ian has some good pics on his website.

Ya, the hives look a bit scrappy, but I am slowly giving my operation a face lift. I am switching to a migratory pallet system, to help with hive transport and help stack the hives more efficiently

>>About a barrel and a half of dead bees so far this year. 


Thats what I have too,

>> I think a beekeeper gets exposed to much, much more bee dust and spores cleaning up dead outs than scraping dead bees off the floor. 

I often wonder that myself. Just, I dont think I will be spending my time scraping boxes all day with a mask on. Maybe I should at least clean up that equipment out side.



I have lowered the temp to 2 degrees and noticed the bee noise to decrease quite a bit. Alot of my hives have also retreated back into the hives. I think I am going to set the temp back to 4 degrees.

Allen, as spring approaches, do you still try to hold the winter shed at 8 degrees C? From my limited experience, I have crowds of bees outside the hive at that temp especially later in the winter. Thats when I cant get the temp anylower with ventalation.
I am going to try increasing the temp to 8 just for interest sake. I am going to have to get my heated going. Not exactly sure why its not working, but so far have not needed it. Probably will need it at 8 degrees though. 
I dont know about you, these temps are cold! Especially when trying to calve it!

Allen , what kind of air circulation system do you have in place?
I winter in a Quonset style building, and mix the air inside with 3 industrial ceiling fans. I can feel air movement in every area in the building, so I think system is sufficient. But I know the beekeeper @ Starbuck has an air mixer along side both sides of his facility as well as ceiling fans.
Do you feel thats necessary?

And if you dont mind Allen, Id like to pry a bit more experience from you,

How dark do you have your building? Just wondering from the comment you made about getting your skidder out during facility use.
I have my facility about as dark as you can get it. But after working in the shed for an hour, when eyes adjust, I notice slight glows of light around places of my door, and a slight glow around my air ventilation light shroud. Not alot, just some light passing in. 
Makes me wonder, should I work at getting trapping that light?


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## mark c (Apr 5, 2010)

Hello Ian, I have been wintering inside for I think about 10 years. I do this on a much smaller scale than you guys. I have 50 colonies now so my comments may not be that applicable to your situation, I started after being told not to worry about haveing a little light come into the building, I don't have a total light trap at the door, but even more significantly I have left holes through the walls for vents that are not light trapped at all. I have dead bees outside at times, but there is not a mass exodus. The past 2 years I have been covering the holes partly from seeing that you thought it so important now there is only one hole about 1.5 inch in Dia. that is not light trapped I just did not get to it and it was not a top priority. This is in a building 8ft square. I try to keep the temp. at either 40F or 44F depending on which thermometer you beleive. I have a habit of checking in pretty regularly to make sure that things are looking ok. I check with a regular flashlight not one with a red cover, bees will fly toward the light. I have a friend who is regularly saying that one must stay away from wintering bees so last winter I took the top off one hive and looked in with said flashlight almost daily just to see what would happen, they looked pretty much the same as the others in the spring so I don't know how good they would have been had I left them alone but it did not kill them. 
I know that what I am doing is not nearly as exact or scientific as what you do, nor will it affect me as significantly if I fail. It seems like the bees can handle things that we often don't think that they can, but then likely they would do better if handled correctly.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks for the input Mark!

>>I check with a regular flashlight not one with a red cover, 


Ha, you know what I did?
My bees are stacked 4 pallets high. They are stacked right as high as my skidder will lift them. I went into my shed with a head lamp, a white light, thinking I was pretty smart only lighting the area up where I was working.
Well, not 30 second with the light on I got a face full of bees!! HA! Next time I covered the lense with red tape, 

Mark, do you provide air circulation? I dont really know your situation, but I believe a simple bathroom fan would provide more than enough air exchange for your wintering facility. I would stay away from the open wholes in the side of the building, unless they are directly linked to the individual hives. The bees will see that light and want to make a cleansing flight, not able to return to the hive afterwards.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Mark

Very much agree with your post. A lot statements about indoor wintering just don't seem to hold up to practice. I've never notice a decrease in survival in the hives I disturb in winter. I go into the wintering room daily and several time a winter I will pop lids to access survival. Those top hives look no different than the lower hives in spring.

Ian

>>How dark do you have your building?

This is my third winter in my new building. Some areas still have a fair amount of light coming through around the doors, AC unit, fan and intakes. It doesn't take long for me to be able to see inside. If the fan is running I can see immediately without a light. Over time I am slowing reducing the amount of light coming in. Several times a week I'll open the 12 X 14 door, sometimes up to five minutes. The closest hives are about 30 feet from the door. Some bees fly out but not a whole bunch. I suspect leaving the door open longer would be problematic. As spring approaches and it is warmer outside, more bees will fly. It seems to me that the bees that are flying are the ones that are going to be dying soon and landing on the floor. My take on the darkness issue is the totally dark is good but not as critical as is often said.

>>what kind of air circulation system do you have in place?

In my old wintering shed I had a nice system that used an hourly timer allowing me to set how many minutes an hour and which minutes I wanted the exhaust fan to run. The fan also ran when temperatures reached a certain point, I think I had it set for 7C. Ceiling fans were used to circulate the air. I intend to set thing up the same way in my new building but it haven't done so yet. (Keeps getting bumped down the priority list.) Currently, I have a 3000 cfm fan connected to a block heater timer. Up until yesterday, it ran 15 min every 2 hours. With the -30 C weather, my wintering room temp was down to 4 C so I changed it to every 3 hours. The hives are in the hot room (600 sq ft) and the extracting room (1400 sq ft), though most are in the hot room. The 2 rooms are separated by a 12 X 12 open doorway and a 1000 cfm fan continuously circulates the air between the 2 rooms. I still haven't put ceiling fans up but will do so next spring. I think strong air flow helps bees stay in their hives in spring if things warm up and helps dry wet supers in summer. Personally, I think an air mixers is overkill. Bees have much harsher conditions during outdoor wintering.

>>as spring approaches, do you still try to hold the winter shed at 8 degrees C

In spring, if I know warm weather is approaching I try to reduce the temperature. I will run the exhaust fan all night and maybe open the door. When the outside temp approaches the inside temp, I turn the exhaust fan off and wait for the outside temp to fall below the indoor temp. Of course, snow is always an option, though I have only needed it once.

I am trying something different this spring. My floor has pipes in it and I am going to circulate water through then. The incoming water from the well is 8 C and then it will be discharged into a 100 ft weeping tile. If this works, should be a good stress release.


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## mark c (Apr 5, 2010)

Thanks for the welcome.
I have a bathroom exhast fan on a timer persently set for 4 half hour settings per 24 hours. When it is warmer I set it to run all day and often much of the night. I don't have it connected to a thermostat, maybe next year. 
I also have a 6 inch duct fan to move the air from the ceiling down, it runs continuosly.
I have been blocking the light coming in through the holes, (only 1 hole is letting in dirrect light, compared to 16 when I started useing this building) they do not link dirrectly to any individual hive, on the other hand I have not really seen them to be a serious problem. You are right though some bees do make a 1/2 completed cleansing flight. I plan to keep these holes as I have more colonies than The Hive and the Honey Bee claims should be wintered in a building per cubic ft. 
I also have a 750w heater on a thremostat in the building.
I value the input you both have shared as other sources are pretty limited around here. Thanks Mark


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>> system that used an hourly timer allowing me to set how many minutes an hour and which minutes I wanted the exhaust fan to run. The fan also ran when temperatures reached a certain point

I have my ventilation fan set continuously day and night, at a lower idle speed. With that air exchange, the building inside temp stays at the set 4 degrees C. And without the need to heat the air comming in. (my heater is broken!)
On days the temp reaches close to freezing, my fan will be increasing the air flow to maintain my 4 degrees set temp. I have a secondary fan to increase air flow during warmer temps. I have usually tried to keep the temp below 6 degrees, so as spring approaches both fans will run continuously during the days. 
That much air exchange really sucks the moisture out of the shed, I am thinking of adding a humidifier to the building for days like these. -30 air really take the moisture away!


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

If they are thirsty they will take water out of a Styrofoam cup placed on the entrance


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I will have to try that

I have seen entrance water feeders that use plastic coke bottles


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