# Winter feeding in northern climates



## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

they wont take syrup below 50 deg. no matter where you put it. search for the mountain camp method here-dry sugar on paper directly on the top bars. good luck,mike


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As long as the syrup doesn't get above 50 they will barely take any syrup. They can eat fonant, candy and dry sugar at any temps but they generally only take an interest when they are starving.


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## phil c (Jan 21, 2007)

Not wanting to derail this thread but when you talk about feeding fondant is that the same fondant that my wife uses to frost cakes with? 
Also with winter feeding how do you get the food into the hive without loosing any heat and freezing the bees?


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

the hive is not warm, only the cluster. pick a sunny day with no wind, dont waste any time, and place the paper and sugar on the top bars, close up and all will be fine. good luck,mike


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Next year, feed your bees what they need early...like the last half or September, or the first half of October. If you feed early, there will be no need for fondant, candy boards, granulated sugar, or whatever. The bees...and you...are all set for winter.

The bees are quite capable of setting up and provisioning their broodnests for winter. They've been at it way longer than we. I realize that there are times when lack of adequate provisioning is beyond the bees' control. Proper management of your supers will allow enough honey in the broodnests for winter. Those that for one reason or another didn't store enough can be fed what they need at the proper time. 

Of course...some beekeepers harvest every drop of honey, to improve their bottom line. Then they wonder why their colonies are light, or why they have to resort to drastic measures such as dumping granulated sugar on their bees for winter.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Michael Palmer said:


> Next year, feed your bees what they need early...like the last half or September, or the first half of October. If you feed early, there will be no need for fondant, candy boards, granulated sugar, or whatever. The bees...and you...are all set for winter.


I'm glad someone said it. Thanks.

Of course you always hear... well its cheap insurance... I only have a few hives... what does it hurt? The bottom line is that its completely un-necessary. 

Would you put an extra lid on top just in case the first lid failed? Ya know.... as insurance....?? Not likely if you put the effort into building the main lid properly in the first place.


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

Some feed them in the winter by giving them a 5lb bag of sugar on newpaper on top of the frames on one side. 

http://beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222354&highlight=Winter+feeding+sugar


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZYtGNa6S6c


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Eaglerock said:


> Some feed them in the winter by giving them a 5lb bag of sugar on newpaper on top of the frames on one side.


Yes, you're right. Some do. But, some don't. In fact, many don't. 

I think sugaring your bees is a perfectly acceptable management tool...if your bees are starving, and it's winter and they can't take syrup. I also agree that, in certain conditions, the sugar will absorb excess moisture from the cluster. But, it's a crutch. The bees only need it because, for one reason or another, they couldn't provision their broodnests with enough supplies for winter. And the moisture comes from inadequate ventilation, uninsulated inner covers, and feeding syrup late into the fall. Wouldn't it be better to allow them or help them establish and provision their broodnests the way they have for eons of time? Wouldn't it be better to set up the hives so excess moisture vents to the outside before it becomes a problem? 

Is everyone really so worried about wintering their bees that they'll do anything...just in case?


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Michael Palmer said:


> Is everyone really so worried about wintering their bees that they'll do anything...just in case?


From the discussions (borderline arguments) I've had with some folks on the topic it seems so to me anyway. They want to argue most about how cares if they don't need it... it isn't much effort and if the bees don't need it then so be it.... it doesn't cost much... 

I'll echo Michael... if people are using sugar to deal with moisture issues then they haven't addressed the core of the problem... moisture just needs a place to go. The dado cuts in my migratory covers solve the problem for me. I don't wrap, I don't provide insulated covers, I don't add sugar. Why do more than you have to do? In general (and there could be exceptions) If you are properly managing your hives you don't need these measures (ie sugar, candy boards etc) 

But hey... to each their own... I suspect most will continue on.......


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## IABeeMan (Aug 19, 2007)

NewBee2007 let me apoligize for your question being turned into a slug fest. It seems some people have forgotten that this started as a beginner asking for help and they have turned it into a boxing ring.

You stated you had 2 full deeps as well as a full medium and a medium also about 1/2 full. This should be more than enough to winter anywhere in the country with the exception of maybe Alaska. 
This is my opinion on sugar and it is merely an opinion. I have used sugar as an emergency pull through but I don't do it until the hive seems to need it. You can check the hives periodically throughout the winter and if one feels light you can add some sugar then. But if you have 2 deeps and a medium full then you should have no prob at all wintering this year.

Kevin


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Certainly feel free to feed sugar as has been explained, but it appears that your hives are well situated for the winter ahead. The norm for overwintering in cold climates is two deeps. I would take the approach not to feed right now, but as winter comes to an end, watch to see if the cluster is up on top and using up the stores. If so, feed then. You'll have to be a bit more careful with timing.


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Yes, you're right. Some do. But, some don't. In fact, many don't.


I am one of them that have never fed through the winter. I do have one hive that I might think about it about Feb/March. For me, it was something I had never thought about though. The man that taught me in the 60's, never did, so, to be honest, it just was something I was not up (knowledgeable) on.

But, having said that, I must also state, that I have learned a lot of things in here, which I never would have known, if it were not for Beesource. I am old ways. Heck, they don't even sell queentraps anymore. I have been out of beekeeping for over 2 and a half decades. So when the local Inspector gave me the heads up on this site, I came, I read, I learned. 

What was even more amazing, was that somethings I use to do that was said not to do, has become ok to do now. 

I am still glad I have my queen traps though. Saves me climbing trees for my bees. LOL


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

IABeeMan said:


> NewBee2007 let me apoligize for your question being turned into a slug fest. It seems some people have forgotten that this started as a beginner asking for help and they have turned it into a boxing ring.
> Kevin


Where did this turn into a "slug fest" and a "boxing ring"? 

Some of us are simply stating the bottom line. I never heard anyone here being disrespectful to the original poster or to anyone for that matter. If you think this was a slugfest apparently you've missed alot of other discussions on this site. This thread should be helpful to anyone wondering the same question(s) as the original poster.

How you could view this as a slug-fest is beyond me.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

NewBee2007 said:


> Hi! I have 3 hives and am wondering how I should attempt to feed them in the Winter as I do not want to lose them to starvation again (like I did last year.)


Hi NewBee2007,

This is my first winter with bees so let me share my experiences, and in-experience with you.

First of all I realized that my two colonies were very light on stores in September so I started to feed them a lot of 2:1 syrup in the top feeders... That would have been fine but I didn't know that I my bees were being robbed the whole time. So, after feeding 30# of sugar in syrup to each colony I saw that both of the two medium hives were still not full. That was at the end of October.

I had planned to place some fondant on the inner covers in January but since my colonies were at risk I decided to add some fondant now.

Now, I will share my in-experience with you by explaining my set-up:

What I did was to make a 3/8" spacer to be placed on/around the opening of the inner covers. On top of the inner cover I placed a 3/4" thick piece of Styrofoam that was cut to the same dimensions as the inner covers. The Styrofoam also had holes cut into the centers like the inner covers.
On top of the foam I placed an empty box... and I placed some hunks/blobs of fondant (purchased) around the center opening in the Styrofoam. I partially covered the openings, allowing the fondant to sag down into the top box a little. Some bees came up to see what was going on... and they seemed to approve.

Now... on top of the "empty" box I placed a piece of homasote, and finally the outer cover.

The reasoning behind my approach:

1. The Styrofoam over the inner cover provides the insulation value of the foam with the benefit of the additional 3/8" dead air space between the foam and the inner cover. This should help to reduce condensation on the underside of the inner cover.

2. The 3/8" spacer supports the foam and the weight of any fondant or feeders placed above it. 


The opening in the foam obviously allows for some ventilation and the bees have access to the fondant.

There is not much open air flow with what I've done but at the same time there is little chance of condensation gathering on on "overhead" surfaces. The inner cover (over the bees) is well insulated and the Homasote under the outer cover should help to "wick" away any moisture which rises into the top box. I believe that the walls of the upper box will frost up well before the Homasote. When the frosted upper box walls thaw the water will run down onto the Styrofoam and migrate to the outside of the hive.

Because the Styrofoam is "slippery" I tied two nylon cords tightly around the hives to hold the top boxes and covers in place.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Fondant=sugar,water, and corn syrup.*



phil c said:


> Not wanting to derail this thread but when you talk about feeding fondant is that the same fondant that my wife uses to frost cakes with?
> Also with winter feeding how do you get the food into the hive without loosing any heat and freezing the bees?


The fondant fed to the bees would normally be made with sugar, water and some corn syrup. 

You may be able to buy 50# blocks from a bakery supply co.

*Note: there is only sugar,water, and corn syrup in in the fondant.*

Place the fondant on the inner covers... with an empty box on top. There's no need to disturb the bees.

I'll see how well it works in the coming weeks/months. See my post above.


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## Zane (Mar 28, 2008)

*Feeding honey late*

It's my first winter also but before someone tells me what I SHOULD have done. I am just curious just in case I need to feed later on in the late winter. Can I just put a super on top and feed? I saved some honey(and dont get off base and worry about my honey either) from a late cutout to use for that purpose if needed? I wondered if the open area of the super was ok? to keep the heat in and such? Whats the best way to feed honey that way. I've tried pouring honey over some old comb so they have a place to climb and not drown but hasanyone tried other ways?


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

Zane said:


> It's my first winter also but before someone tells me what I SHOULD have done. I am just curious just in case I need to feed later on in the late winter. Can I just put a super on top and feed? I saved some honey(and dont get off base and worry about my honey either) from a late cutout to use for that purpose if needed? I wondered if the open area of the super was ok? to keep the heat in and such? Whats the best way to feed honey that way. I've tried pouring honey over some old comb so they have a place to climb and not drown but hasanyone tried other ways?


Ok, you are a little vague, or I am not understanding. Are you stating you have a super of honey to put on them? How many supers did you leave on them to winter?

Okay re-reading I missed the last part. You tried pouring honey into old comb. I think your best bet would be, and this if you *did *leave them a good supply of honey to winter on, wait until late winter and put an empty supper on them, put a newpaper on on side of the frames and pour a 5 lb bag of sugar on the paper.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Or, if you have leftover honey that you don't plan to use and you need to feed....put an empty super on top. Put some honey in a plastic 'zip lock' bag and seal it carefully (I usually put a half gallon of syrup into a gallon baggie). Lay the filled baggie on top of the top bars of the bees' nest and using a sharp knife or box cutter cut a one or two inch slit across the exposed surface of the baggie (You're likely to get a bunch of different methods recommended here....choose the one that seems the best to you). The bees will move up to the top of the baggie and consume the honey.


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## Zane (Mar 28, 2008)

*Winter feeding*

Its suppose to get into the 60's tomorrow so I will try the ziplock method w/ the extra honey I got from my late cutout and will also try sugar on another hive thats acting/looking a little weak(they may just like the warmer weather ?:s) 
I am also thinking of moving another hive that is by itself out in my field to all my other hives that I put some big hay bales up on the north side for protection. Do you think that would work w/ the expected warm temps tomorrow. I figure the "cluster" may break up due to the move but hope the warmer temps would give them time to regroup?


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## NewBee2007 (May 6, 2007)

*Thanks to all who responded! I appreciate all of your suggestions and info!*

My 2 stronger hives appear to still be alive, but the 3rd hive (that swarmed in mid - september) and was the weaker of the 3, died out in Jan....they apparently moved up into the styrofoam hivetop feeder, but there was no feed in it and unfortunately they did not move back down and starved in the clear feeder section.... I guess I should have pulled off the clear cover on the styrofoam feeder and just poured in a 5 lb bag of dry sugar into it and then they could hve crawled up to get it...live and learn (still) I guess... I just hope the other 2 hives make it through...one of the other 2 hives lost it's inner and outer covers during one of the winter storms over the holidays while we were away over the holidays...and unfortunately I didn't realize it for another 2 weeks later after returning from vacation...from the road all looked fine...but when my husband checked them out one day after we had been home a couple of weeks, he said that the snow had froze on the top of the hive and that it had been exposed to the elements, possibly maybe 3-4 weeks, and that he had cut away all the frozen snow but could not locate the inner cover so he just placed the outer over back on (apparently a lack of ventilation was not a problem for that hive) ... The following weekend, I discovered the 3rd hive had died out so I took the inner cover from that one and put it on the 2nd hive.... and, on a positive note, the bees in the 2nd hive are still alive and they looked similar in strength (I'm just going by their cleansing flight activity) to our other hive that had been strong and thriving going into winter... 

I have not started feeding any of them yet. Unfortunately it's been too cold to open them up and look in too long, but on the next warm day that I'm home that's not too wet or windy, I definitely will check in on them.

How else can I know if they are low on stores, without actually getting into the hive? I'm scared to try to lift them as I can pretty much bet that I'll either hurt myself or knock the hive over in the attempt to determine if they are low on stores.....

Hence why some of you probably just go ahead with the 5# bag of sugar for insurance purposes, eh? I am now heading into my 3rd year of beekeeping this year and still having to buy packages of bees with no honey to show for it & it's getting sort of pricey (I could have bought alot of local honey for the investments I've made so far...although at least the first year I did get alot of pollination from both the honey bees and the native bees!  Unfortunately, last year was very wet so there wasn't enough honey to take off the hives in the fall (imo) so I decided to see if I could get them through the Winter and Spring alive and see maybe after the dandeion flow if I was possibly able to get some Spring honey to bottle just for our family use, and then see if they started to produce extra honey stores that I could bottle and sell...but unfortunately that's getting too far ahead of myself and the bees... we are just taking it day by day at this point....

Also, I'm afraid of feeding and giving pollen supplements too early as I don't want them to build up too quickly and swarm on me either... 

I'll keep you all posted regarding what happens and if they are strong come spring! 

thanks again! 




BeeCurious said:


> Hi NewBee2007,
> 
> This is my first winter with bees so let me share my experiences, and in-experience with you.
> 
> ...


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

So far, so good for those two hives, right? I tend to worry most about March and April for "winter losses" around here. If the bees start raising brood too early and we get a cold snap, those hives can be lost pretty quickly. And often the up-and-down temperatures of early spring seem harder on bees than cold and constant.

Starting with packages might set your hives back compared to starting with nucs. Hopefully, you should have enough drawn comb and stores at this point that even if you have to start from packages again, the bees might produce for you and not just for themselves.


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## bee target (Jul 5, 2006)

*feeding*

I myself asked this question, yes I was told to use the mountain camp metod to try to help and thanks to all who gave POSITIVE advice. To thoes who just want to say how wrong it is or how IF we did it right the first time or CARED for our hive in the first place(we would not be asking if we did not care !!!!!!!) Your in put could be made more constructive or just dont comment!!!!!! Not all of us are experts or can PREVENT everything that happens in the fall. I had sooo much rain that one of my hives ate 2 deeps in a week of checking them. I feed as much as I could but as I could not control the temps they did not have the time to build up SO YES I CARE and am woried about this hive makeing it. Once again thanks to all who try to HELP POSITIVELY, to the rest if you dont really want to help some new beekeeps just shut IT!!!!


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Calm down. Offering advice, even if the advice seems a bit harsh, gives new beekeepers some starting information.

Feeding through the winter, in my opinion, is done for one of two reasons: 1) the beekeeper chose to take more honey than the bees needed to survive, or, 2) the beekeeper missed something in management until winter weather caught the beekeeper off guard, and then feeding is the only emergency option to keep the bees going.

Some beekeepers will tell you that they care about their bees and therefore feed. Some beekeepers will tell you that they care about the future of bees, and if the bees can't take care of themselves, they don't want them and therefore do not feed.

The key in most of this is that winter feeding is usually called "emergency feeding." The best course of action is not needing to feed during the winter. Sometimes it becomes necessary unless the beekeeper chooses to let the bees die. Emergency feeding does not ensure survival; in fact, the chances of a hive surviving are far greater if the management takes place in the fall than if an emergency feeding is necessary in the winter. This isn't saying it's wrong -- just that better ways exist.

At the risk of simply sounding critical, eating two deeps full of honey in two weeks sounds pretty excessive to me. Are you sure the hive wasn't robbed?

So, constructively, new beekeepers should check their hives in the fall. Combine weak hives ("take your winter losses in the fall," if you will). One strong hive is better than two strong hives. Feed in the fall if necessary. Leave honey on the hives for the bees during the winter. Maybe select a different location for an apiary if one location is consistently poor.


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

Bee Target,
Try not to sweat it, it happens on these forums. Don't let it cause you to see your time here as a bad experience. There's a lot of good advice on this forum. Sometimes the delivery is not done too well, but if you can pick through the weeds, there's often something good growing inbetween.t:

On a lighter note, try to see what happened to cause your offschedule or accellerated consumption rates. If it's any consolation, a lot of us missed the mark with some of our hives this year. I thought that the amount that most of my hives would have been sufficient, and it should have been on a normal year, but this year for us was a much harder winter. A very significant amount of mine now have emergency feed on them too. Not something I'm proud of, but there have been a lot of variables this year. All we can hope for is to try to stay on top of things.


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## MCA (Sep 6, 2008)

Well i am not going to enter the winter feeding debate too much, but i do have a couple of questions about the mountain method.

If i feed on top of the frames, add a super then the inner and outer covers will the extra space created by the extra super cool the hive too much in freezing temperatures? 

If i am unsure about stores available, but suspect they are low should i just feed suger on the inner cover (add super then the cover). I would prefer the ramifications of feeding then the ramifications of starvation...

Thanks,

Mike

PS i feed in the fall and left a full ten (or 9?) frame super of honey on them for winter, but it has been really cold here and that cold seems to be lasting into March


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Really cold seems to take less supply of honey for overwintering than warmer and starting to rear brood, in my experience.

If your hives are really light, feeding is likely the resort you'll have to take. But I would check the weights of those hives to confirm that feeding is necessary.

The extra space of a shallow for feeding should not be a major problem for the bees while feeding, I think, but I have very little experience with the "Mountain Camp" method of feeding.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

bee target said:


> Once again thanks to all who try to HELP POSITIVELY, to the rest if you dont really want to help some new beekeeps just shut IT!!!!


I guarantee that if you decide to take the advice you don't seem to like you'd find it to be positively accurate and helpful to you in your beekeeping endeavors.

Best wishes!


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