# Going cold turkey, getting cold feet



## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Don't sweat it, if they all die there's always next year. Catch a swarm, do a cutout, buy a package. Lots of ways to get bees. Best of luck to you though =)


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Due diligence would say to requeen with known mite tolerant genetics before going cold turkey.


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## johnth78 (May 26, 2012)

Hang in there buddy. You can do it! Takinga risk is the process of gaining the knowledge weighing the factors and moving forward. Gambling is calculating the odds and then jumping off a cliff.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Expect 100% loss. Then you will be pleased if one makes it thru the Winter strong enuf to split. How many do you have?


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Fishman43 said:


> Mite counts were really high last week. First treatment free year jitters I suppose.


This winter will give you a chance to save up some money to purchase new bees next spring.Seriously,good luck.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Expect 100% loss. Then you will be pleased if one makes it thru the Winter strong enuf to split. How many do you have?


3 full size hives with genetics out of Palmer's bees
I made 8 nuc splits in August to overwinter with the following queens (3 Purvis bros, 4 Russell sunkists, 1 caught swarm)


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Fishman43 said:


> 3 full size hives with genetics out of Palmer's bees
> I made 8 nuc splits in August to overwinter with the following queens (3 Purvis bros, 4 Russell sunkists, 1 caught swarm)


That sounds pretty good going into winter situation to me. According to Palmer's nuc model anyhow  Good luck!


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Expect 100% loss. Then you will be pleased if one makes it thru the Winter strong enuf to split. How many do you have?


This is actually some really really good advice. I expected 100% loss on my 3 colonies last winter, all 3 made it through and it made for a very good spring.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Hang in there. Expect the worst, but hope for the best. Good luck!


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Yes, I'm with Mark (sqkcrk) on this one. Expect to get hammered, and then it'll be a pleasant surprise if you don't.

I'm in the same boat this year.

Adam


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

As I understand it the real losses come in the 2nd and 3rd winter. I have lost 2 so far this fall and they were in the 2nd and 3rd seasons, TX free.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

RiodeLobo said:


> As I understand it the real losses come in the 2nd and 3rd winter. I have lost 2 so far this fall and they were in the 2nd and 3rd seasons, TX free.


I will take one winter at a time. Next summer will see more splits (if I have hives to split from), so they will be going into their first winter in 2013. One (cold) foot in front of the other...

Thanks all for the support!


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Fishman43 said:


> I will take one winter at a time


Same here. This was just the first losses I have had due to mites. Keep the faith and plan for the worst and hope for best.


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## hlhart2014 (Jun 11, 2012)

I am right there with you...this is our very 1st year of beekeeping and have used no chemicals. I did do one powdered sugar shake mid Sept. after high mite count(which dropped quite a few) but, that is it. I am surrendering to the bee universe and hoping for the best! I am determined not to give up...Our neighbor did nothing and his bees survived(call it benign neglect) so I am hoping the same for our bees! Best of luck and know you are not along!


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I don't think that 'low expectations' is the best mindset to have when starting treatment-free beekeeping.

I would advocate having a workable plan that falls within the norm for beekeeping.

For instance, after an initial failure and some rethinking, I restarted with a known resistant breed, VSH, and then planned to split to survive, obtaining the equipment (nucs) to do so.

Currently, I'm interested in building some 2 or 3 frame mating nucs since I feel that it would go a long way towards making splitting, and selection, easier.

I am not a fan of the "Bond, Live and Let Die" school of treatment-free beekeeping.

I do like the MDA splitter concept. It makes sense.

So, there is a difference between 'treatment-free' beekeeping and 'management-free' beekeeping.

[Edit]


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, yeah, but this guy is simply jumping in blindly w/ both feet. So I was stating reality as I see it. It doesn't look like a lot of thought or planning happened, other than nuc building for overwintering.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Well, yeah, but this guy is simply jumping in blindly w/ both feet. So I was stating reality as I see it. It doesn't look like a lot of thought or planning happened, other than nuc building for overwintering.


That is a mighty large assumption about me based on very little information! 

On the contrary I have read, watched, and listed to everything I can get my hands on since begining this adventure ~18 months ago and made what I hope is (as closely as possible) a calculated risk. My ultimate goal is treatment free, why continue with a crutch that doesn’t allow me or my bees to build their strength. My original post was only to vent a little of the anxiety I am feeling. I am sure that many, regardless of their management style, feel some amount of concern for their bees survival over the winter. I do not fool myself that I have given them an extra large hurdle to that goal. Blindly assuming I didn’t think of ever pro and con I could imagine or had been posited by others is a negative assumption by you.

I followed the link in your signature before, it seems you want to promote a helpful, positive, supportive community. How about helping in that regard instead of assuming you know my background.

Best regards,
Dan


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, sorry about that, but I can't see any more than what you show and I didn't see any planning, just jumping in w/ both feet. If you did plan, good. What more can be said. I wish you luck. I just know from experience that the odds are against you and you should be pleased w/ one good strong hive making it thru the winter.

I'm glad you looked at the link. I fall short of the ideal all the time. Don't know anyone who doesn't. Sorry 'bout that.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Thank you for the apology. I know I didn't provide much information as I was mostly looking for moral support from others who have walked the path before me. One strong hive would be a blessing, although I do hope (against the odds perhaps) for a nuc or two to make it through as well.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

@Dan

One of the inherent problems with BeeSource and other Internet forums is that people responding to posts have little hard information to go on. There are lots of posts by people who want to keep bees without using treatments that unfortunately are scared to open their hives and see what is in there.

It is good to know that you have thought about the potential consequences of being treatment free.

I have a state bee inspector coming here in about an hour to look over the yards here (two) - and while I will be interested to know the Nosema counts, I am much more interested if there are virus signs that I have missed. I make no pretense at knowing everything there is to know about bees and welcome additional (knowledgeable) eyes. I do hope the temp rises a bit in the next hour.

My yard without treatments was started this spring from packages from BeeWeaver. I have found them feisty on occasion - we'll see what the state inspector has to say. They look healthy enough to me but with insufficient stores to over winter successfully.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I should have stopped after my first Post. Thank you for accepting my apology. I hope you have low winterloss and can expand your apiary next season.

A little advice? Breed from the survivors.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Well, sorry about that, but I can't see any more than what you show and I didn't see any planning.


I tend to see it more as an issue of thinking you know more than you have seen. The OP is not responsible for what you think or post based upon your lack of information.

One very important thing to know usually is when you don't know enough.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thank you Daniel Y. I appreciate how you lead by example. I'm glad for your advice.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I tend to think that when someone is magnanimous enough to make an apology that it benefits the general tone of the discussion for everyone to move on.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I should have stopped after my first Post. Thank you for accepting my apology. I hope you have low winterloss and can expand your apiary next season.
> 
> A little advice? Breed from the survivors.


I hope to! I have dog eared Lawrence John Connor's "Queen Rearing Essentials" and "Bee Sex Essentials" over this past year reading through them multiple times. Although I am leaning towards Joseph Clemens "system" for my first attempts at grafting this coming spring rather than the start finisher Dr. Connor recomends. All this assuming I have survivors to work from of course. ;-)



jim lyon said:


> I tend to think that when someone is magnanimous enough to make an apology that it benefits the general tone of the discussion for everyone to move on.


Agreed, and magnanimous is such a great word as well!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Fishman43 said:


> Agreed, and magnanimous is such a great word as well!


Thanks. I knew I kept the ole Thesaurus around for a reason. Mrs. Thayer would have been proud.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm not speaking to anyone in general, but the rules of this forum place upon the poster the respect and responsibility to post only about things they have seen or experienced. We want and need intensely practical information.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Fishman43 said:


> My ultimate goal is treatment free, why continue with a crutch that doesn’t allow me or my bees to build their strength. My original post was only to vent a little of the anxiety I am feeling. I am sure that many, regardless of their management style, feel some amount of concern for their bees survival over the winter. I do not fool myself that I have given them an extra large hurdle to that goal.


Dan -

Having been down this road myself, I know the feeling when you decided to stop all treatments and know it will be a rough road ahead. I think it's fairly common to experience a down turn before you will see upward stability in your bees. It took a few years for my bees to rebound.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Solomon Parker said:


> I'm not speaking to anyone in general,


Then you must be speaking to someone specifically.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

And Sol, your website and blog is one of the many sources of intensely pratical information I have tried to glean knowledge from (although I didn't green dye the 2:1 I am feeding the nucs). I appreciate all those who are willing to help and support through direct communications, or taking the time to post websites and publish books!

Thanks Barry, I figured this is a long term project


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Fishman43 said:


> And Sol, your website and blog is one of the many sources of intensely pratical information I have tried to glean knowledge from (although I didn't green dye the 2:1 I am feeding the nucs).


It's my pleasure to help. If you ever have any suggestions of things for me to write about, don't hesitate to tell me.

I have never found the dye in the honey that gets harvested. It's a safety factor to make sure my product is as pure as possible. Generally, the hives that need feeding are not the ones that make extra honey anyway, or at least my management style leads to that conclusion.


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## whalers (Jun 4, 2011)

This is an interesting thread. Was just about to post a tongue in cheek comment about beekeeing being an annual business, meaning you purchase the bees in the spring, get the best out of them before they die and buy new ones nextspring. It can be and certainly is frutrating. I bot two nucs this spring that were supposed to be "survivor" bees resistance to mites and have lost both of them to mites. I bot two 2 pound packages of Carnies and have lost one of them. The other I treated with Hopguard. So the ones left to themselves are gone and the hopguard treated hive thrives. Really wishing I could find a way to NOT to buy bees every spring. I see a lot of talk here about nucs and splits. Going to have to bone up on that over the winter and try to get some kind of game plan together. I still love em (bees) but the frustration is endless.


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## hillhousehoney (Oct 7, 2008)

Only "guard" going in my hives is a mouse guard. If they die they die, but when they live, they get tough! Keep them clean !!


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