# Foundations--The best way



## rustyshoe (Jan 17, 2012)

I see online that most are using an electronic thingy to embed the horizontal frame wires into the foundation. But, I haven't see anyone using a Spur tool, as a two or three hive operation, will a spur tool do me?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I personally never got the knack of a star imbedder. The electric one hooked to a 12 volt battery or better, just a battery charger, worked great with a very short learning curve. The secret to a star embedder may be doing it on a hot day so everything is pliabe.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I use both together. Especially with vertical wired foundations, sometimes the electrically embedded wire has some bulges that need some help from the spur embedder. On foundations containing no vertical wire I have to be careful not to cut the foundation in half with the electric wire, so I go lightly and finish with the spur. Spur tool alone will service a small operation. Queens will not lay an egg in cells where the horizontal wire is bulging up too high into the cell over the vertical wire.


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## RedDave (Apr 5, 2010)

I've always used only a spur embedder for up to 5 hives. If you're careful and the weather is warm, not cold, it works great.
Dave


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have been known to play a heat gun over foundation for different reasons, like getting it to bend into grooved top and bottom bar frames. Also good for wax and propolis cleanup.


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## lenny bee (Oct 29, 2010)

Hi: I work with two spur embedders. I heat one up and when it cools down I grap the other and rotate. A very small flame or small hair dryer works well. More than five hives I would think electric.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I used to use a spur embedder but only for a brief while. When I did use it, I dropped it in one of those instant hot water pots that you can use to make a cup or two of hot water for tea or coffee. Now, I use a battery charger with a foot switch and it works just great.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I never had much luck with a spur embedder. I ended up having a crimper remade by the local welder and adding some "points" to the Walter T. Kelley electric embedder:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmisc.htm#wiringtools

Then I went to foundationless instead...


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## Hartz (Sep 4, 2010)

I have only used a spur embedder. I have a 3/4 piece of hardwood cut just a little smaller than the foundation that I lay the frame on so the foundation is supported and you can put pressure on the embedder. No heat needed...just some pressure. I've done thousands this way before starting to switch to ritecell. Takes just seconds per frame.

Hartz


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## MES613 (Nov 19, 2010)

Rustyshoe, I asked a similar question prior to my inaugural season last year. Some one on this forum suggested stretching monofilament across the wax foundation panels, and even referred me to an online video on that. I must say that it was simple and very effective. And a great time saver. The bees just draw their comb, embedding the monofilament in the comb. With my experience using monofilament, I don't see why people would go through the hassle of embedding wire.


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## lenny bee (Oct 29, 2010)

Ravenseye, did I understand that you hooked the charger to the wheel spur embedder?
Sounds like a way to go. I been rolling for years. Did you have it set on 6 volts or 12 volts.


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## RedDave (Apr 5, 2010)

Do you attach the monofilament to the frame sides or just lay it on the foundation?


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Monofilament works OK if you have 2 or 3 hives. If you're looking at doing 3000 frames, not so good!


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## jajtiii (Jul 11, 2008)

I never embed wire. I have around 35 hives, for reference, and I might come across an issue 1 frame in 50 or something. I can usually (well, 'always', so far and to my knowledge) fix it in a flow.

I have started to not even use wire on a few experimental supers, but have no report on the outcome of that yet.

1. I do not extract Deeps (only Med and Shallows)
2. I use crimped wire WITH hooks


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

In our mediums we use crimp wired foundation with no hooks and NO cross wires; grooved top and bottom frames. The mediums virtually never blow out in the extractor. In deeps we run the 2 center cross wires and embed, the cross wires keep the foundation flat; with the crimp wired foundation don't need four cross wires.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Have a look here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XQMsYeQgSI&feature=BFa&list=PL3D06C385260B1EA1 at 345


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

hartz has a very important point. reguardless of the type of embedder it is more important to have a backer board. otherwise the fdn will be cut by the wire.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Nice video Max! Put pictures to all these words very nicely!

Gypsi


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## josepablo (Jan 23, 2012)

I am a newbie. I have read that there exist advantages and disadvantages of using foundation in frames. I am considering to use foundationless frames. Any advice against? Any experiences with?
Many thanks,

Pablo.


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## MES613 (Nov 19, 2010)

RedDave: Save yourself a ton of time and work: Forget the wires, pins and grommets: use monofilament on your deeps frames. Check out this video from Fatbeeman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwYrT8XhKf4


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am a newbie. I have read that there exist advantages and disadvantages of using foundation in frames. I am considering to use foundationless frames. 

It depends on what you want. If you want uniform cell sizes and as few drone cells as possible, then foundation would be the way to go. If you want clean wax, natural cell sizes and don't mind a natural amount of drone comb, then foundationless would be a good choice.

>Any advice against? 

I'm sure there will be some. There are those who will tell you that you'll get nothing but drones. Of course this isn't true or bees would have been extinct hundreds of thousands of years ago. There are those who will tell you they will mess it all up and not build it in the frames. Sometimes, of course, they mess it all up with or without foundation. But the advantage to foundation is that every frame encourages them to get back on track. With foundationless, one bad comb leads to another.

>Any experiences with?

I did a top bar hive with no foundation back in the 70s, but only kept it about a year because I wanted to standardize things. Didn't try it again until early in this century. So I did wax and DuraComb for 25 years. Some plastic and wax and DuraComb for a couple of years and now I do a mixture of plastic and foundationless.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"If you want clean wax" - does clean wax have anything to do with or without foundation?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"If you want clean wax" - does clean wax have anything to do with or without foundation? 

Since the entire beeswax supply is contaminated with fluvalinate, amiztraz and cumophos, yes, foundationless has every thing to do with clean wax.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Hang on Michael - I use foundation ( made from my own wax) and I don't use any of the chemicals you mention. Indeed the only " chemical" I use is DE. 
I would belive that my beeswax is clean. We always have to be careful putting all in the same box.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Hang on Michael - I use foundation ( made from my own wax) and I don't use any of the chemicals you mention. Indeed the only " chemical" I use is DE. 

Of course. Probably about 20 people in the world do this with their own clean wax...


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## shughes (Jan 17, 2007)

If I have to add foundation weeks ahead of a flow due to the large number of frames I have sitting in front of me, I will either use a spur embedder or electronic embedder but if I am setting supers out during flow I don't embed at all. The girls will jump on it and embed themselves.


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

thanks MES613
I did those video for just that because with that method you don't need a wire embedded or those costly wire.I found the bees will draw it out very well,it wont blow out when your extracting. one thing you will find out when you need to cut out a queen cell its much harder.cleaning frames with wire are a pain too.
Don


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"I am setting supers out during flow I don't embed at all" - no problem with slump in hot weather?


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## shughes (Jan 17, 2007)

max2 said:


> "I am setting supers out during flow I don't embed at all" - no problem with slump in hot weather?


not with the medium supers. i do with the deeps but not enough to worry about it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>no problem with slump in hot weather? 

If they draw them quickly enough, it's not a problem. Sometimes they fall out and warp in hot weather, yes. Wire helps under those circumstances. But depending on what you're doing it can also get in the way.


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