# Top Bar Hives -- The red headed step child of beekeeping



## BeeGora (Oct 22, 2013)

So, after a year of using my top bar hive (personal choice after much research last year), I took a beekeeping workshop offered by the local county beekeeping association to get my certification. They opened the class by saying, "Welcome to beekeeping". The first instructor was an old timer who was a wealth of information on Langstroth hives. When asked what he thought of top bar hives, he went into a rant. According to him they were "stupid", "a waste of money", and "illegal in North Carolina" (because they don't have frames). The second instructor was little nicer. His response was, "they're better than no hives at all". After that the term "top bar" was never brought up again. Welcome indeed.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

I get the same thing at my bee club. People definitely get set in their ways and are reluctant to try new things. This is my first year and I'm doing both Langs and a TBH. I also asked a question about foundationless frames at my association and you would have thought I was speaking Latin. At least there are some organic treatment free people in the room. That makes me feel a little better.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Hey, it gets worse. I have long hives, which are like top bar hives, except that they have frames, and the minute I open my mouth and say I have long hives, I get an automatic lip curl and "Oh, you mean those, uh, top bar thingies." I get labeled an idiot for using top bars, and I don't even have top bars.

I try to explain, but half the time all I get is uncomprehending confusion. I guess I'll have to bring pictures.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

I am about half done with building a nice, nuc sized, model TBH for my bee club. Better than pictures! LOL


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've noticed people are most critical of things they have no experience with...


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> I've noticed people are most critical of things they have no experience with...


Which means there is nothing to worry about. The ones doing it successfully can sit back and laugh, smile, tell jokes or whatever while watching everyone else. 
I'm finishing my wife's top bar hive today. We found out that we are expecting, and this means that she won't have to squat over while working her bees. It would be a bad day if she went into labor while in the bee yard handling a bunch of bees.


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## oldfordguy (Dec 5, 2009)

Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it.

Joel Arthur Barker


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## brettj777 (Feb 27, 2013)

My two Top Bars died out this winter. I think they were light on feed going into it. But one still had 3 full bars of honey unused. But the first thing the pro beekeeper said to me was, "Well I guess that's why people don't use 'em....bees dont move horizontally".

So I'm restarting them this spring (with 3 Langs too) and hopefully see if I learned enough to keep them alive this time!


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

My bee club has slowly started to get more TBH beeks. Last year it was just two of us, but I know of two more newbees that are going with TBHs that have joined. I wouldn't say folks are hostile, but when I did a presentation on TBHs there were a lot of skeptics. My favorite was when someone asked where the foundation goes. When I mentioned you run them like a foundationless hive that brought up a whole new set of questions. "How can you have a hive without foundation?", that kind of thing. I enjoy the company of the club members and I'm not an evangelist, but I answer questions when I can, so for me I don't mind it too much.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

I went ONCE to my local beekeepers club.

I don't need it, especially since you guys/gals are here.


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## txbeek (May 21, 2013)

Its such a crying shame that humans were never able to keep bees before Langstroth built his boxes. The 5000 year old Greek top bar hives must have been just another Greek legend


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I find that bee club is still fun, and I enjoy the company of the other beeks. Fun to be around people with the same interests as you, even if they go about it differently.


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## Ryan Williamson (Feb 28, 2012)

As a red bearded beekeeper I have nothing wrong with the red headed stepchild. But I see it from the other side in that I sell Nucs and queens and thus constantly field questions from beekeepers with problems. It always pains me when I am on the phone with some one and a simple solution is foiled by incompatible hives. For example a simple open brood move to fix to a laying worker colony can be impossible if a top bar hive does not take frames from a friend's lang hives. Naturally I also have to turn away a lot of beekeepers seeking to repopulate their top bar hives with my nucs. So those top bar beekeepers have to order in packages from far away rather than getting local bees.....unless they play the waiting game with swarms. Topbars are not bad at all but I am one of those who reccomends to beginners to be aware of the possible difficulties runing non standard equipment can lead too. I don't run top bar hives but I am sure they are just as much of a pleasure to tend too.....as long as they have bees in them. Its the bees that make beekeeping fun.


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## mdadams1 (Apr 17, 2012)

I have 3 main hobbies...beekeeping, unicycling/bicycling, and photography....I find in all three a lot of folks get really hung up on equipment....

Mike A.


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## Silverbackotter (Feb 23, 2013)

mdadams1 said:


> I have 3 main hobbies...beekeeping, unicycling/bicycling, and photography....I find in all three a lot of folks get really hung up on equipment....
> 
> Mike A.



You don't do all three at once do you?


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

Silverbackotter said:


> You don't do all three at once do you?


We know a guy who went to do cutouts on a pennyfarthing, took photos of the process on his I phone, carried the bees away on the bike, then sold the honey back to the homeowners with photos of their house on the jars. He had the best/funniest stories of anyone I've ever met.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Ha! I have a unicycle too! There was a poll on engineers that are beeks. Maybe they should have had a unicycle subclass.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I belong to 2 bee clubs. For the smaller one, I'm the only member with a TBH and the old guys all tried to talk me out of it. In the other large club, I've finally found 2 others who are starting top bar hives this spring. Guess I'm kinda leading the way for our local group. Found the best way to talk about it is to set up my display hive with one or two bars at the county fair or garden center when my bee club goes. 

Even the group members find the foundationless, no-frame display fascinating. It is a bit frustrating to always be on the defensive, especially with other beekeepers. My standard answer has become, I'm a horticulturist first and a beekeeper second, and I am trying to find a less expensive and low maintenance method of beekeeping for gardeners to employ to keep a couple of hives in their yard to help the bee population and for better pollination.


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## Life is Good! (Feb 22, 2013)

I've not joined our local group, as they meet when I'm unavailable. I'd like to find more local set of advisors to bounce ideas off of - but figure this community of beeks is as good as I can do now. Between work, life, hobbies, gardening/self-sufficiency - frankly, I haven't found it necessary to spend 3hrs of my valuable "free" time listening to information which does not pertain to our situation! Same for our organic garden. Same for our henhouses. Same for our project car we're building. Same for our 1915 money-pit, er...home which has a never-ending to-do list.
Perhaps when I'm "retired" I can join a local beek group. By then, tbh's will be 'old fashioned' and 'quaint'! LOL!


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## BeeGora (Oct 22, 2013)

*"You don't do all three at once do you?"*

That's funny. Got my day off with a laugh


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> I've noticed people are most critical of things they have no experience with...


Amen.

Y'all are starting your own tribe. What you are experiencing is what happens when someone starts their own tribe. You shouldn't expect nonTBH beekeepers to understand you or have much to tell you.

I saw a guy here at the Motel yesterday w/ jeans down below his butt. Makes me wonder what sort of people he and I know in common. He's a person of course, just not part of my tribe.

People selfselect.


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## mdadams1 (Apr 17, 2012)

shannonswyatt said:


> Ha! I have a unicycle too! There was a poll on engineers that are beeks. Maybe they should have had a unicycle subclass.


What size unicycle do you have/how often do you ride? I try to ride at least twice a week. Three unicycles. 20, 29, and a 36 in

Mike A


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I have a 26, but I would like to pick up a 20. I ride very rarely (mainly to annoy or embarrass my kids!), but I would probably ride more on a 20, since it is the size I learned on. A a few weeks ago I was picking up my son from a scouts camp out and one of the boys had a 20 with him and he was trying to learn. I ask if I could see it and he couldn't believe that I was able to free mount and start riding around. It was a lot of fun being back on a 20, so much more control. 

I did get to ride a fairly large wheeled one once (I don't recall the size), you can eat up some ground really quickly with those pennyfarthingesque wheel sizes.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Those of you who have experience with top bar or long langs have you repeatedly successfully over wintered your hives north of the 49th parallel...or at least with long cold, wet winters?
Once I understand how to do that, how to treat and supplement feed and how to control swarming in a long style hive I would love to give it a go.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Most Canadians don't winter repeatedly over the 49th parallel, why would you think bees would want to!


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

shannonswyatt said:


> Most Canadians don't winter repeatedly over the 49th parallel, why would you think bees would want to!


They may not want to but if they are in my back yard they have no choice. Most Canadians do stay in place most of the winter...those that love snow sports find it a wonderland


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## Kdxzoom (Jun 17, 2013)

WBVC, there is a poster on the Biobees forum named Garret who runs horizontal top bar hives successfully and lives in Delta, BC. You should check out some of his posts. He's friendly and willing to assist.


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## JellyB (Jan 6, 2014)

I was wondering why More folks north of the 49th don't do a hybrid AZ/ bee house type thing using TBBH w/side entrances? I would think that it would be easier to work than even the AZ hives that they use Eastern Europe and the Balkans? Or using Long Langs. 
I met a young Amish Beek doing something similar to this today, he said that his bee house started out as observation hives, but he decided to cut a hole in the wall for his TBBH for the winter, because he was tired of loosing them every winter. The hive body is inside the building but the bee entrances are on the exterior wall 
I would rather put MY money into a Bee house than a Hen house, greater return on investment & less winter losses.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Those of you who have experience with top bar or long langs have you repeatedly successfully over wintered your hives north of the 49th parallel...or at least with long cold, wet winters?

I'm only about 41 North, but it's colder here, I think. Probably not as wet. Winter could set in as early as October and run as late as May. Or not. We had quite a bit of -20 F (-29 C) this last winter and sometimes have colder. I have overwintered top bar hives every winter for the last decade or more. Usually several. Occasionally one doesn't make it, but losses are the same as for the rest of the hives.


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## plcnut (Mar 8, 2013)

We've had good reception at 2 different clubs with our TBH's. It helped a lot to bring a TBH nuc, with comb (no bees) so that people could actually look at it. 
I am also an industrial automation engineer, as well as a unicycler. I have a 24" Semcycle with a triple wall John Kovachi rim, and a 5' giraffe on a 20". Lots of fun


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> and a 5' giraffe on a 20". 

Is that like a fish on a bicycle? :scratch: 



I believe I am the only member of my local beekeeping club with a TBH. I have never got any static about it, but I don't make a point of pushing TBHs either. 

I started with 2 TBHs and expanded into Lang hives after I gained enough knowledge to form a good background as to what style of Lang equipment I wanted to use.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Kdxzoom said:


> WBVC, there is a poster on the Biobees forum named Garret who runs horizontal top bar hives successfully and lives in Delta, BC. You should check out some of his posts. He's friendly and willing to assist.


Thanks...Delta is but a few minutes away...I was there this morning picking up some horse blankets. Does he post here as well?


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## Kdxzoom (Jun 17, 2013)

WBVC. I don't believe he posts here. But not sure.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

JellyB said:


> I was wondering why More folks north of the 49th don't do a hybrid AZ/ bee house type thing using TBBH w/side entrances? I would think that it would be easier to work than even the AZ hives that they use Eastern Europe and the Balkans? Or using Long Langs.
> I met a young Amish Beek doing something similar to this today, he said that his bee house started out as observation hives, but he decided to cut a hole in the wall for his TBBH for the winter, because he was tired of loosing them every winter. The hive body is inside the building but the bee entrances are on the exterior wall
> I would rather put MY money into a Bee house than a Hen house, greater return on investment & less winter losses.


We are new to bees but my daughter is interested in doing up a bee hause. Why not immediately...need to research a reasonable design, need time to build.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I joined biobees...but must admit I do treat and PMd Garret. Hope he replies


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

WBVC, I think the bee houses are pretty sweet, and would love to do one if I had the time, the money and a good place to put one. 

My cousin's experience of being treatment free foundationless has actually been worse than mine with TBHs. Some folks look at treatment free in the same way that we look at people who don't vaccinate their kids. Like we are the cause of the problems with bees, not the other things like pesticides, fungicides, lack of natural forage, etc.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

WBVC said:


> I joined biobees...but must admit I do treat and PMd Garret. Hope he replies


Actually I'm on this site also! Janne, you should remember me from the last RBA meeting. I was one of the people on the panel answering questions.

I think if you are interested in TBH's it would be in your best interest to read Wyatt Mangum's and Les Crowder's books.

http://www.tbhsbywam.com/
http://www.fortheloveofbees.com/topbar-beekeeping-book/

You may want to consider attending one of the TBH workshops we will be organizing this year and will be getting the word out on them before too long.

The best advise that I can give in a few words is to not get hung up on the differences in hive shape of TBH's and Langstroth's. Management strategies are transferable between the two systems, it just takes a bit of thought in how to apply them.


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## plcnut (Mar 8, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Is that like a fish on a bicycle?:scratch:


It is actually a unicycle with a seat 5' off the ground, it has a chain like a bicycle so that the pedals can be mounted up higher


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Psychology is an interesting thing. A cursory read of the thread would suggest being a unicyclist somehow would predispose the person to get a TBH if they opted to start beekeeping.

Could be unconventionalism. Normal bike - Bah. Lang hive - Bah.


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## Needo (Sep 10, 2013)

You might be on to something there, Oldtimer. I use to ride a unicycle, as well. ( 26" semcycle fitted with an off-road tire)


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I was going to work on some top bars, but I think I will ride my Uni first!


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

My carpenter able kids were not keen to build a top bar hive...they have made some great Lang stuff...
So 10 minutes ago I bit the bullet and ordered a premade hive!

Problem:

It is now past package bee availability in our area. I have never seen or heard of a swarm in my area...how do I get bees for this thing!

We plan on making up some Lang nucs this summer but all will be on Lang frames. We are new to this so have no extra frames to butcher for the TBH.

Can one get a Queen and simply shake in some bees. If so how many frames would need to be shaken into the hive? How to keep those bees with the TBH when it is in the same area as the donating Lang? If I cut out a small amount of open brood and put it in the TBH would the bees stay with that?

What curiosity of trying different things does to us!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Add some extensions (if necessary) to some your TBH top bars and put them in a Lang hive to get them drawn out (similar to using a foundationless frame, except there are 'only' top bars on these special 'frames'). Monitor the comb built and remove those bars before the comb gets built outside the limits of what will fit in the TBH.

If you are lucky enough to have brood in these bars when you want to split - even better. If not just having comb on your some of your TBH bars will help.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

WBVC, if I were you I would put out a bunch of swarm traps. You may or may not get lucky, but it is cheap to do and you may get lucky. I would think in your neck of the woods you still have time. If you were going to try to get some bees you should try places in Vermont or NY were it is closer to your climate. You will need to feed since I assume your summer is short.

You could do a shaken swarm if you have a strong Lang to do it with. There are videos on youtube on going with this method.


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## mdadams1 (Apr 17, 2012)

Is a 5 foot giraffe slow going? I would love to try one.

Mike Adams


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

shannonswyatt said:


> WBVC, if I were you I would put out a bunch of swarm traps. You may or may not get lucky, but it is cheap to do and you may get lucky. I would think in your neck of the woods you still have time. If you were going to try to get some bees you should try places in Vermont or NY were it is closer to your climate. You will need to feed since I assume your summer is short.
> 
> You could do a shaken swarm if you have a strong Lang to do it with. There are videos on youtube on going with this method.


Swarm season is far off up here. We can't import bees from the USA.
I has swarm traps out last year and will try again this year. Used lemon grass oil and the purchased pheromone which I hear is also lemon grass oil I put burr comb in the traps in hopes of making it homey as I have no extra drawn comb.


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## plcnut (Mar 8, 2013)

mdadams1 said:


> Is a 5 foot giraffe slow going? I would love to try one.
> 
> Mike Adams


OT:
They are harder to get up on, but once you're up, they are easier than a regular unicycle. You have a lot farther to fall, but you also have a lot more time to pedal back under yourself. As far as actual speed, mine is 1:1 drive with a 20" wheel, so it's the same as a regular 20.


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## mdadams1 (Apr 17, 2012)

How do you get up on it? Use a telephone pole? My 36 in can be a challenge sometimes to free mount. My favorite is my 29 in mountain unicycle. I love riding the trails around a lake near my house. I also have a watermelon helmet. That gets almost as many comments.


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