# who still builds frames ?



## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Any of you still building frames at all ? I am thinking seriously of buying my frames assembled , the only thing is that the freight is more because of the volume the frames take up , it is about the same cost per frame unassembled with a sheet of foundation .


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Cost us 25 cents to get assembled , but these guys know what they are doing and very well set up. 
I build mine when I can, takes a lot of time .


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## red (Jan 15, 2013)

I still assemble mine because I have the time in the winter. I do around two hundred a day. On an earlier thread you were talking about 5000 frames I believe, thats about 25 days of work. On an order that size I would probably get them preassembled unless you have lots of time.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

what about the plastic frames ? I can get them really cheap @ 1.79 each for deeps and 1.73 for mediums. +tax of course.
the wooden ones are 1.91 deeps and 1.81 mediums. 
Either way really cheap and no work involved .


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Every year I tell myself I'll never build another frame ever again and every winter I get bored and end up making 1000. Must be why I save scrap strips of 1x all year long, just in case


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

I make my own frames


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I would only trust a bee supply house to assemble them if we just didn't have the time but it fills up winter days nicely. Had a bad experience with preassembled a few years ago and it's been a source of daily frustration in the extracting room ever since. Reports are they are better now.....perhaps. Time wise at .25 cents + extra freight it is probably a wash. It really gets down to how much free time you have. I just bought a sizable amount of commercials from Dadant/Western. Medium frames with Plasticell for 1.34 unassembled + freight. Deeps are around .15 higher. All plastics? Not for us.


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## Tommy Hodge (Jun 4, 2013)

I have 2 hives and expanding to 5 next year. Assembled all the frames myself…each hive is 2 10 frame deeps and a medium supper for each...thinking about buying the pre-assembled next expansion…my operation is puny compared to some of you folks though...


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

We still put ours together. Last year medium budget frames from Western Bee were 0.43 + freight. Pierco foundation was 0.52 + freight. Freight was around 0.13 so total of 1.08 for 5000frames. We put them together so we know they are glued and nailed right. Gives Daddy something to do to keep him out of the house.

Johnny


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

Are you asking who builds them, or who still assembles them. I can't imagine completely building a frame from scratch due to all the intricate cuts. But I do assemble all my own. I but pre-cut unassembled from Mann Lake, 100 at a time for I think $.75 each for deeps, maybe $.73/medium. 

I have a pneumatic nailer in the garage and can whirl them out about as fast as I can stand the pieces up. I've never actually counted, but once I get to nailin I think it takes me about 5 seconds per frame. So that would be 12 frames per minute and so 720/hr, far more than I need at any given moment. Let's be conservative and say I only crank out 400 an hour due I setup, interruptions, reloading nails etc. Still it's a good day's haul. 

There is a pretty good video out there of a guy who built a jig so that he could set up 10 frames at a time and then glue and nail them all quickly. But I don't glue them together, on the odd chance that one may break and I could actually repair it (likely not worth the time spent to repair, but feels good). 

I also like to build my own as I don't know (don't quote me) if you can be them assembled without foundation from Mann Lake. I think with assembled price they automatically stuff Rite-cell in too. That's fine, I like Rite-cell a lot, but only in my medium honey supers. I go foundationless on all my deep brood boxes. 

Buying unassembled in bulk saves me space in the garage until I need to put a few frames together to set up a hive. Plus anything over $100 from Mann Lake ships for free, so 100 unassembled frames is about $75. Toss in a pair of gloves or a few other expendables to round out the order and you're set!

As others said, it boils down to how much time you have. My personal rule is a must create $20/hr in value or save that much to do it myself. If assembly cost $.25/frame, then as long as I do 100 per hour I'm set! At 400/hr I'm cashing in! Don't just consider how much time you have, but how much your time is worth, and you'll be a successful business person!


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

I make mine out of scrap 1x material and mostly out of 2x4s. I use nothing but a table saw and an air nailer. my pneumatic stapler seems to cause a lot of splitting when i make frames.


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

from Scratch....



All mediums and foundation-less.. if you wanted foundation it would simply require the top bar be left flat, and grooves cut top and bottom instead


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I still make mine but it is at the tip of my list of items to simply purchase in the future. At the same time I am in the process of trying to contact a person on craigs list with a table saw that might change my mind. An all in one tool that will allow me to shape a 2X4 or a 2X6 into a complete end bar profile then simply slice the block on my radial arm or mitre saw. That might set back the need to simply purchase frames for a while. I do not expect making my own to be cost effective in the long run.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It's nice to know what noncoms do. Where is Solomon Parker? I haven't purchased any unassembled frames in a long. New frames have been Pierco.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Making your own frames never made much sense to me. By my calculation, in order to make a deep frame of the same quality as you can buy from Mann Lake (unassembled) it would cost you roughly 43 separate cuts, on 4 different machines, using 6 different bits/blades. You can do it with less, no doubt, but the point is to match the same quality, that's what I'd have to use. When you add up all the time, the blade changes, the cost of the wood, the cost of the wear on the blades, it just doesn't add up. How long do you think it would take you to make 100 frames that way? Two hours? If you're lucky? Plus the cost of the wood, you're looking at a loss opposed to you just buying them for .80 a piece.

As far as buying assembled, I don't like plastic frames, and I don't like plastic foundation. Never have. When I'm in a bind, I'll buy some assembled frames with plastic foundation. But only when I'm in a bind. I like wax foundation (call me old). If they offered assembled frames with wax foundation, I'd probably do it. But while I have the time, I can afford to build them the way I want.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I took the op to be asking whether it is more cost effective to assemble precut frames yourself or to buy them preassembled.


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## Markt (Feb 8, 2012)

I bought and assembled around 20,000 jones frames last winter. It was gonna be around 20 cents extra per frame to have an entire semi load (22,500 roughly) assembled and delivered, didn't think it was worth it so I stapled them. While this was maybe the right decision from a purely financial standpoint it's a really monotonous job at that quantity. I could do around 87 per hour factoring in breaks etc... Turned into around 230 hrs so I guess I paid myself 17.50 an hour. I'll be buying pre assembled this year.

Also, 1.91 for a deep with permadent sounds pretty steep for 5000 quantity, have you called jones directly? Also I know how far away it is from you but Beemaid in Manitoba or Tony Lalonde typically have the best price on foundation might be worth figuring out the shipping, unless the price has gone up significantly since last year I would think you should be able to shave at least 20 cents off that price

I've tried pierco's but around here we all run 9 frame brood nests and I've found they'll draw messed up comb around the 6-8 cells on one side where they injected plastic into the mould to the point where I can't use them in brood nests. Never tried them in a 10 frame nest, they must be fine or guys wouldn't use them at all I guess


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Markt said:


> I bought and assembled around 20,000 jones frames last winter. It was gonna be around 20 cents extra per frame to have an entire semi load (22,500 roughly) assembled and delivered, didn't think it was worth it so I stapled them. While this was maybe the right decision from a purely financial standpoint it's a really monotonous job at that quantity. I could do around 87 per hour factoring in breaks etc... Turned into around 230 hrs so I guess I paid myself 17.50 an hour.


.20assembled and delivered isn't too bad, I'm thinking it's more like .25 + freight when I have priced it down here. I would ask for some references from customers of a similar scale who have purchased assembled frames from them recently. Nothing worse than a bunch of poorly assembled frames.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

I bought lots of pre-assembled deep frames from Dadant this past spring and then paid for it all fall with them breaking. They used a small one inch staple for the the top bar with glue and a wider staple in the side going into the top bar. Needless to say one bump and lots of the frames are gone. When we staple them ourselves we just use 8 1.25 inch staples per frame, no glue and no side staples and have never had any problems.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Never would have thought that glue would be a bad thing. And the staple thru the end bar into the top bar seems essential, but not for you? I don't see why the preassembled frames would have been a problem. Good to know.

Where are you putting all of those staples? I haven't stapled frames in a long time, but when I did, two down thru the top bar into the end bars and two up thru the bottom bar into the end bars and two thru the end bars into the top bar was how I did it. I forget how long they were, but twice the thickness of the thickest wood seems like enough.

Where did you put those other two staples?


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

My intent was to find frames already assembled , *wooden is my first choice* , but 4500 wooden frames is 3200+ dollars freight from beemaid ! and they are more money per frame.
I wish there was an easy answer for this ,but as always I will keep asking around and find the best way to do it eventually, maybe I will have to go with unassembled because of the freight , I know it's just extra work and I can't afford to pay myself anyways , so I might as well save money on shipping and grin and bare it . 
I still have to cut out and build 450 more boxes and 30+ 4 way pallets and covers for them and inner covers etc .. It just keeps piling up ! I don't have any help doing it and it makes it difficult not being a good carpenter in the first place , but maybe after a few more years of this under my belt I will be LOL ! I asked santa if he could send his elves to make them for me, I hope he gets the message 

Happy Holidays !


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Set up time is a constant. so is subject to the number of pieces you will make in regard to how time consuming it is.10 minute set up time is huge if all I will do is make cuts for 10 minutes. It is insignificant if you will be making cuts for 8 hours. That is manageable. For example I will not even make frames unless I am making a lot of them. That is somewhat subject to money at this point as well. Btu so far I am thinking my cut off will be around 1000 fraems to even make it worth it. I agree to make 10 fraems is really is not worth it. I have done it and would do it again if I had to but only as an only way forward choice.

Jigs a can reduce set up time drastically. every time I make frames I try to improve on this. this time it look like I will be buying a table saw that is an overall improvement. The old one died and I need it for a lot more than just making frames.

Reduce set up time and making more fraems per run are the only two methods I know of to try and make it worth the time and effort. That and at this time I am lousy with labor and poor on cash. That makes a given that I will make them rather than buy them. but with proper cash flow they would obviously not be worth it. Boxes are not worth making if you have anything else do do rather than make them.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

You know Ben, with only a little training (with an emphasis on safety) teen agers can do this job. Got some local high schoolers looking for a fund raiser? Pay them the .25 a frame with the caveat that you are going to be checking their work. Sounds like you have enough to do.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Sorry, not a commercial guy, but just a quick word on all plastic frames. I think it would be a BIG mistake to use them in a commercial setting. I find them far too fragile and flimsy. Can't imagine they to would perform anything like a good wooden frame. Hate to see you make a big investment and suffer major regrets. I've stopped buying them a long time ago and just been throwing them away as they fail.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Are there any commercial guys using all plastic frames here?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Jim, Be careful with that. First of all you hire people to do it and you are subject to OSHA regulations. I doubt any of you are wiling or capable of meeting them. I doubt the majority woudl ever even take the time to know them. $25,000 fine for a single missing table saw blade guard will put a dint in your expenses in a hurry.

Not only that but I personally know a person that started a business. hired an adult experienced operator for his table saw. that person cut off all 4 fingers of one hand and put the guy permanently out of business. You think it is really the best move to put horse assing around kids in that position. these things are not toys.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

AstroBee said:


> I think it would be a BIG mistake to use them in a commercial setting.


I know several commercial guys and that's ALMOST all they use.............


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> Jim, Be careful with that. First of all you hire people to do it and you are subject to OSHA regulations. I doubt any of you are wiling or capable of meeting them. I doubt the majority woudl ever even take the time to know them. $25,000 fine for a single missing table saw blade guard will put a dint in your expenses in a hurry.
> 
> Not only that but I personally know a person that started a business. hired an adult experienced operator for his table saw. that person cut off all 4 fingers of one hand and put the guy permanently out of business. You think it is really the best move to put horse assing around kids in that position. these things are not toys.


You make some good points Daniel. I have hired young people to assemble frames and it has worked out pretty well but they were local kids I knew well from families that were close friends. The ones I hired seemed to genuinely enjoy the work and the challenge of seeing how many they could get done given the fact that they were paid per unit. There are no saws involved of course but nailers certainly must be handled with respect.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

snl said:


> I know several commercial guys and that's ALMOST all they use.............


Plastics are fairly popular in parts of the commercial beekeeping world but now so much in extracting supers by commercial honey producers. They have some issues working well with automated equipment.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I would use them to assemble and that only with supervision. but never let them near powered shop tools. But then I am not completely comfortable letting me near a table saw. I hate those things. I know at one time I was making hundreds of very small pieces for a project. I woudl lay in bed each night knowing that sooner or later I would cut off a finger. I eventually smartened up and changed how I was doing it. so yes I will do stupid stuff. It is a complex mix of cutting corners and taking risks. Sooner or later you will get bit. That alone is my single gret4est reason to get away from making my own. I love woodworking but sooner or later those machines cut more than wood.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Are there any commercial guys using all plastic frames here?


Probably not, Barry. Definitely not me. I have a lot of comb that I have had for decades. New comb comes into my boxes as old frames need replacing from wear and tear or from making nucs using the old frames. I don't replace a lot of comb each year.

Maybe others do. Jim? Roland? Keith?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> Jim, Be careful with that. First of all you hire people to do it and you are subject to OSHA regulations. I doubt any of you are wiling or capable of meeting them. I doubt the majority woudl ever even take the time to know them. $25,000 fine for a single missing table saw blade guard will put a dint in your expenses in a hurry.
> 
> Not only that but I personally know a person that started a business. hired an adult experienced operator for his table saw. that person cut off all 4 fingers of one hand and put the guy permanently out of business. You think it is really the best move to put horse assing around kids in that position. these things are not toys.


We have what is called BOCES here in NY. People take building projects to BOCES and have High School Students build things. No workers comp involved there.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Daniel Y said:


> I love woodworking but sooner or later those machines cut more than wood.


Most likely, so make sure your blades are sharp! Better to get cut with a sharp blade than a dull one. I'm missing some finger length, but I enjoy woodworking too much to let it scare me away.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

NO NO NO  I buy a 53 ft van full of built frames from Dadant wood plastic insert, you can get 24,000 frames in a van. Can we say done.


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Markt said:


> a really monotonous job at that quantity. I could do around 87 per hour factoring in breaks etc...


That's about what I can do alone, with a jig and using a glue brush on all joints. Up to about 21,000 so far and I can't tell you how bored I am with building frames. 
You can at least double the output per hour using two jigs and one helper just glueing and loading jig and the other person stapling. But I quit doing that because I'm way too anal about where the glue goes and using plenty of it. "If you want it done right, do it yourself!" It is what it is.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

acbz said:


> "If you want it done right, do it yourself!"


I agree. This Keith guy obviously dosent know what he is talking about. 
My guys have worked out a pretty good system with two people and two nailers. One is a 1/4" crown for double stapling the top bars and the other the 3/8" for single stapling the bottom bars. The top bar guy is gluing the end bars in units of 10 and placing them in the jigs and installing and stapling the top bars while the other is installing foundation and stapling on bottom bars. It hums along pretty smoothly. The peripheral work is shared depending on who has the time.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Hey Keith. Do you know if Dadant is doing all their assembly at one location or might different branches be selling from different production set ups.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> I agree. This Keith guy obviously dosent know what he is talking about. .


YEAH..... I know it but don't tell anyone else....

By hand you can do a much better job in the glueing and that's at the heart of the frame. I just have a hard time getting the time to do these types of jobs, I now buy frame & boxes built. Is it the best NO, but I'm putting on sub now & next week will be mixing for the next month, then it's time to move bees into the almonds, where did the winter time off go...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> Hey Keith. Do you know if Dadant is doing all their assembly at one location or might different branches be selling from different production set ups.


All of mine always came from Hamilton IL


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

-11 C here right now and a snow storm coming on the weekend , no working bees until feb-march for me. just getting equipment ready for me .


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

I was talking to a guy recently and he said Dadant is using a cheaper foundation in their assembled frames than the regular foundation they sell. Anybody else heard of this?

Johnny


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

We build our top and bottom bars groved. We buy the side
Bars from dadant or mannlake. Then use a 75 frame jig glue and staple. Turn and burn them maybe 1200-1500 a day. Boring work.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> I'm putting on sub now & next week will be mixing for the next month, then it's time to move bees into the almonds, where did the winter time off go...


Off topic, granted, but your sub feeding now? I thought the consensus was to wait until after the "change of days" (i.e. Winter solstice). Was my understanding of the "consensus" misguided?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> NO NO NO .......... built frames from Dadant wood plastic insert...... Can we say done.


Thats till they fall apart. Great till they head right for the fire pile... We been down this pre assembled road many a time.

Keith. Maybe you can update the folks on the durability of the wood frames I showed you when picking up the sub a little while back. They might take an extra dime or two or three to assemble but I doubt theres a soul on here that could get them to "separate." 


Ben..... Would not having some shipped from mann lake to a friend on the border and then NAFTA-ing them across to your pad work out? I personally wished they had stayed with the 3/4" top bar. Beyond that the cuts and wood have been impeccable recently.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> Off topic, granted, but your sub feeding now? I thought the consensus was to wait until after the "change of days" (i.e. Winter solstice). Was my understanding of the "consensus" misguided?


SKM, your not misguided, were starting early because we get swamp around the first part of the year with other duties. If you start around the 5th on you will be just fine.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Honey-4-All said:


> Thats till they fall apart. Great till they head right for the fire pile... We been down this pre assembled road many a time.
> 
> Keith. Maybe you can update the folks on the durability of the wood frames I showed you when picking up the sub a little while back. They might take an extra dime or two or three to assemble but I doubt theres a soul on here that could get them to "separate." .


Phil, I hear you but when does this madness end, I just don't have the time. The frames you show me would work fine until a tank ran them over, I don't think the forklift would hurt them, It's just a time issue.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Specialkayme said:


> Off topic, granted, but your sub feeding now? I thought the consensus was to wait until after the "change of days" (i.e. Winter solstice). Was my understanding of the "consensus" misguided?


I think I would feed them before they starved. I am not sure how much time the bees are looking at the length of days to decide if they need to eat.

Such as my nucs. they have feed on them all winter no matter what. that is simply because they never started with enough stores in the first place. In addition taking into consideration Randy Olivers article on small colonies continuing to attempt to build up to about 10 frames of bees even in mid winter. I suspect a nuc cold have additional need fro stores that a full size hive would not. They may very well have brood to feed even in December.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I was in the middle of making about 700 frames or so when my table saw decided to finally die. So I spent the last week watching craigs list.

Yesterday I found a 10 inch saw with a cast iron table for $50. The next lowest price on a similar saw was $275. When I picked it up I was talking to the seller and he knew perfectly well what he was selling. He just wanted it out of his way.
It is very simular to this except it is the 10 inch not the 8 inch saw.
http://www.old-woodworking-tools.net/images/craftsman-king-seeley-corp-8-inch-table-saw-21260439.jpg

Since I had put away $250 for the replacement of the saw I decided to keep shopping and find a jointer to make frame making just one step easier. I found a 1950 model Beaver 3800 for $100
http://5.forums.drupal.assets.taunt...com/files/comment_upload/166606/myjointer.jpg

Not sure if the links work that well. The site will not let me post the images.

It was a very good day for tool hunting.

The saw needs a new switch and I had to replace the cord on the jointer. Lots of rust but that can be fixed. The jointer is a tank. They just do not make them like that anymore.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Ignore this, he responded first.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> I think I would feed them before they starved. I am not sure how much time the bees are looking at the length of days to decide if .


Dan, we were talking sub feeding. You are correct as you were talking syrup feeding.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Good find Daniel Y, do you have a knife sharpening business near by?


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Daniel Y said:


> I found a 1950 model Beaver 3800 for $100
> http://5.forums.drupal.assets.taunt...com/files/comment_upload/166606/myjointer.jpg
> /QUOTE]
> 
> HA ! I use the same jointer and I have a Beaver Rockwell tablesaw from the stone age as well for doing dado cuts , it is great for the dado stacks , the arbor is really long on them. And yes they don't make them like that anymore, I fix a lot of different tablesaws under warranty through different companies and unless you get a high end big $$$$ one , they are poor.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ian said:


> Good find Daniel Y, do you have a knife sharpening business near by?


I am a wood turner first and foremost. I have a tormek sharpening system. If that does not get it done I have a couple of sources to put the blades back in order. I have had to get connected on the issue of keeping the edge on things for a while now. And yes these blades are in pretty sorry shape.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Barry said:


> Are there any commercial guys using all plastic frames here?


Yes there is, though I personally dont care for them. Dbest seems to really like the all plastic frames.


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