# Sticky  Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?



## Litsinger

Squarepeg suggested that I chronicle my efforts in treatment-free beekeeping- and after considering it, I thought it might be helpful in the future. 

Though I have little (o.k. very little) to offer thus far, I thought it might be helpful to outline the perspectives of a rank amateur that might be helpful in the future to those just starting out. 

A brief introduction- I am pushing 40 and my wife and six (count 'em six) children live on a small farm we bought a year-and-a-half ago in Western Kentucky (Climate Zone 7a) that is predominantly mixed hardwood forest and is surrounded by a mix of large row-crop areas, smaller pasture areas and numerous small woodlots along fence rows, at the back of fields and along the numerous creeks and watersheds that feed into the Clarks River.

I kept bees as a youngster in New Mexico prior to varroa becoming the scourge it now is (never mind small hive beetles), and gave it up while going to college, marrying, starting a career and raising a family- but getting back into beekeeping has always been in "the plan".

While preparing to get back into beekeeping, I happened upon "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Beekeeping" and it opened my eyes to the possibility that there are people out there practicing apicultural husbandry without resorting to any of the myriad chemical options currently available. This idea was appealing and intrigued me, so I read everything I could get my hands on relative to the current streams of thought in the Treatment-Free realm and I jumped-in last winter with little experience and boundless optimism. Based on what I read, here are the most fundamental decisions/goals I made:

1. Standardize around all eight-frame medium equipment for both broodboxes and supers.
2. Utilize screened IPM bottom boards with small-hive beetle trays.
3. Refrain from queen excluders - i.e. "unlimited" broodnest.
4. Source "regressed" bees and utilize all 4.9 mm foundation.
5. Employ Housel positioning.
6. Refrain from treatments of any kind (o.k. so some might call SHB trays and/or supplemental feeding treatments, but I digress).
7. Seek to get new package starts to five boxes (8 frame mediums mind you) of drawn comb and stores by the end of the season by feeding to support brooding / wax production.

While I will save my observations from this year for a subsequent post, I imagine many of your experienced beekeepers can already anticipate many of them. I made enumerable mistakes this year (which I hope to outline too). In short, here is how the year went (so far):

1. Installed two 3# packages of regressed bees on 4.9 mm foundation in mid April.
2. Caught two swarms in early May.
3. Made two nucs in early July (one of my many mistakes).
4. Gathered-up an usurpation swarm from one of the hived swarms in late August and installed it in one of the struggling nucs (one of my few successes).
5. Watched both packages explode like gangbusters only to crash-and-burn due to varroa in Mid-November and early December respectively (I apologize for the mite bombs that I released).

At this juncture, I am simply hoping earnestly that some of the swarmed stock that remains in my yard will make it through the winter. In follow-up posts, I will outline the most important lessons-learned (which will be obvious to you experienced beekeepers) and follow this up with my goals for this coming year in deference to Squarepeg's judicious pattern of doing so.

In closing for now, I still have little experience, but what little I gained came at the cost of a now cautious optimism. I am still enthralled with these amazing creatures and consider myself very fortunate to have the opportunity to interact with them and the sage souls around here who keep them. 

Russ

p.s. While riding with my third daughter (age 7) recently, I asked her what she wanted to do/be when she grew up. She thought about it for a moment, got a sheepish look on her face, and suddenly got very quiet. When I gently pressed her to tell me what was on her mind she said, "Dad, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I don't want to be a beekeeper when I grow up."


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## squarepeg

excellent opening post russ. 

many thanks for sharing and we're looking forward to following along as your journey unfolds...


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## odfrank

With 48 years of beekeeping under my belt and 16+ years of following treatment free advice here on Beesource and Dee Lusby's group, this is what I would have done differently:

Started with large brood chambers, I have been disappointed in the performance of my all medium hives. I am converting my all medium hives to have a deep brood chamber.
Used solid bottom boards because my observations and others show that SBB's have little advantage over solid.
Use queen excluders on most hives so that I can maintain white extracting combs that are easy to protect from wax moths, eliminate sorting at harvest and contain the queen in fewer easy to find her boxes.
Use any old bee I catch and all normal size cell worker foundation in the brood chamber as small cell is a bunch of hocus pocus and natural cell makes for more drone cells and mites.
Skip Housel positioning as it is impossible to maintain in ongoing manipulations and also Dee Lusby hocus pocus.
Continue to try new treatments as they become available because a lot less of my bees died this last winter when treated.
Refrain from buying packages because for the most part they have been money thrown way. 
Don't be such a stupid idiot and waste time and money following the teachings of treatment free Gurus. 






1. Standardize around all eight-frame medium equipment for both broodboxes and supers.
2. Utilize screened IPM bottom boards with small-hive beetle trays.
3. Refrain from queen excluders - i.e. "unlimited" broodnest.
4. Source "regressed" bees and utilize all 4.9 mm foundation.
5. Employ Housel positioning.
6. Refrain from treatments of any kind (o.k. so some might call SHB trays and/or supplemental feeding treatments, but I digress).
7. Seek to get new package starts to five boxes (8 frame mediums mind you) of drawn comb and stores by the end of the season by feeding to support brooding / wax production.


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## Litsinger

odfrank:

Thank you for your feedback. I am honored that you replied to my fledgling post and I really respect and admire your perspectives. This Spring when I found bees fighting to the death at one of my bait hives, I found a post you responded to indicating that this was an indication of two sets of swarm scouts fighting for the volume, and you took a lot of flack for this. Lo and behold, a couple of days later, a large swarm occupied the prime downtown studio apartment (the box they were fighting over), and a smaller swarm had to settle for the ranch out in the suburbs (another box visited by scouts but not fought over).

That said, your experience-based suggestions are well-taken and mirror several of my observations this year. This presents the opportunity for me to share my few observations, my thoughts about what I intend to do to rectify the problems I saw, and an open invitation for anyone to poke holes in my logic - you will not hurt my feelings.

I'll start with 8-frame mediums- the purported and observed benefits of this configuration is that it affords you the ultimate in flexibility, as the same box can function as a brood box or a super depending upon its placement and time of year (assuming no queen excluder). This is a feature that I definitely under-utilized, as I can now envision myriad manipulations that one could undertake with this set-up. I contemplated going with all 10-frame deeps for the same reason but ultimately decided against this for two reasons:

1. Weight- I was warned by many beekeepers that I respected that 10-frame deeps (for honey storage) would be hard to manage as I got older. After really studying honey being put up this year, I realize that there are other ways around this problem, so I certainly would not dissuade someone from giving all deeps a go strictly for this reason.

2. Comb Building- I was taught as a kid (and still hear the argument) that bees don't like to draw out #1 and #10- so logic is that 8-frame equipment is more in keeping with the way they want to build the nest. I see that there are ways to get the outside frames drawn (and had to employ some of them in the 8-frame boxes), so again I would not let this fact in-and-of-itself disqualify a 10-frame set-up. 

That said, I have no complaints about the 8-frame mediums relative to these "Pros".

The "Cons" that I observed all relate to the dynamics of the broodnest in two fundamental areas: 1. Stack Height and 2. Brood Anchoring. Before I expound on these two items, I want to clarify that both of these issues might be easily solved by a more experienced beekeeper- I am relating the problems that this particular beginner is wrestling with. That disclaimer aside:

1. Stack Height- In order implement Mr. Walt Wright's "Checkerboarding" method with all 8-frame mediums, the consensus (at least based on the feedback I have received) is that the minimum overwintering stack height needs to be five tall. So before you can even begin to add supers for gathering surplus, the stack is chest-high or higher. This means in practical terms you spend most of the season working off a step ladder. So, I suppose you trade excessive weight for working off a ladder- both are considered hazardous duty...

2. Brood Anchoring- Walt talked about this, but I didn't really appreciate it until I observed it first-hand. In short, a medium is just big enough that the cluster is content (apparently) to not occupy the bottom box of the stack going into winter. Obviously one can (and probably should) move the cluster down before real cold weather sets-in, but I was not prepared for this reality. The practical result is that I have two remaining hives overwintering in all mediums (photo below) and the four deep hive is clustered at the very bottom of the stack while the three deep hive is clustered at the very top of the stack. One difference between the two is that I provided supplementary feed to the hive in the background and Walt observed that successfully backfilling the volume above was one of the keys to getting the cluster down to the bottom.









What do I intend to do differently based on what I know now? Well, at least for now, I am stuck with the date I brought so to speak, so I want to figure out how to maximize the benefits of 8-frame minimums and mitigate the shortcomings. I will save a detailed description of my thoughts for a later post, but in general terms they involve:

1. Stack Height- Increase brood density within the boxes themselves by possibly running narrow-frames (i.e. 9 frames to a box) to maximize the total number of brood that can be raised in a given volume.

2. Brood Anchoring- Possibly look at methods that involve moving brood down to the bottom of the stack (i.e. Walt's "Pollen Box" maneuver) and/or adding new volume for brood expansion either below or within the active broodnest (i.e. Tim Rowe's Rose Hive method). Within this I need to get a handle on how one successfully gets the necessary volume for Checkerboarding backfilled to a level that gets the winter bees into the bottom box without supplemental feed and without having to do extensive hive manipulations in November.

This post is far too long already so I will close. I intend to outline my observations with screened bottom boards in the next installment.


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## Juhani Lunden

The most important thing is to get bees (queens) from an already long term TF apiary.
It will save you about 10 years of struggling.


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## Litsinger

Juhani:

Thank you very much for your helpful reply. Knowing that you have long-term success keeping bees in a treatment-free context, I sincerely value your perspective.

I hope to expound upon my goals for bee sustainability in a subsequent post and welcome your feedback on my thoughts. In the meantime, let me succinctly say that I hope to avail myself fully of the available genetic diversity currently in my area but I am also quite pragmatic so I am open to exploring any and all avenues which might afford one to successfully keep bees in a treatment-free manner year-over-year. In other words, if our local mutts won't cut it, I am not above bringing in some pedigreed "survivor" stock.

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts- I do value them.


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## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> if our local mutts won't cut it, I am not above bringing in some pedigreed "survivor" stock.


ok, understood

How about starting an experiment right from the start ? local mutts verus "pedigree bees"
That would be interesting to follow - from our readers point of view


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## Litsinger

Juhani:

An experiment between local swarms and purpose-bred stock sounds like a worthwhile exercise.

Based on your extensive experience in breeding for treatment-free survival traits I wonder:

1. Do you see these traits mitigated in subsequent generations after open-mating with local drones? And;

2. Related to (1)- assuming that the local stock exhibits some degree of resistance in our specific locale, would bringing in outside stock seek only to augment this resistance in future generations, or could it possibly upset adaptation that has/is occurred/occurring?

3. While it might be difficult for you to answer based on your location, are there particular lines you are following in the US that exhibit the most promise to you based on your own local observations?

Thank you again for your input. It is most appreciated. 

Russ


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## Litsinger

Screened bottom boards seem to elicit very strong opinions from beekeepers, particularly from the TF crowd. 

Not knowing anything about them from first-hand experience, I concluded that choosing to employ screened bottom boards came with little downside risk as I could always install cortex (or something similar) in the future, leave it in place and the assembly would function effectively as a solid bottom board.

The rationale for screened bottom boards is that they provide the means to conduct mite counts via sticky traps, catch small hive beetles via oil or diatomaceous earth-filled trays and provide copious amounts of hive ventilation during hot and humid conditions to facilitate rapid capping of honey. I have even read that some advocate them for cold-weather use, suggesting that it cuts down on hive moisture build-up and thus improves overwintering success.

The advice I was given was to leave the cortex board in-place while a package drew out its first box and to leave it open otherwise unless conducting mite drops or installing a tray to deal with hive beetle problems.

At least in my area, small hive beetle problems started almost immediately. I would install the oil-filled tray and it would knock them down fairly well only to see them flare up again soon after the trays were removed. While I am not sure what the relative hive beetle load a healthy colony can successfully manage, the site of several dozen black armored tanks scurrying every time you pull the inner cover is not a comforting site.

As for the ventilation component, I noted that a few colonies actually employed a layer of bees on the face of the screen in behavior I have been told is their attempt to minimize the heat loss through the opening- kind of like taking one for the team.

These two factors led me to leaving the oil-filled trays in most of the season, and the bees appeared to be more contented with this approach.

This also led to another observation- the oil-filled trays (crude a they may be) provide some glimpse of internal hive dynamics without having to pull the hive apart. As an example, one can complete an admittedly non-scientific 48 hour mite drop by renewing the oil and coming back two days later to see how many mites are in the oil.

Additionally, you can see where brood is emerging by looking at the "lines" of wax cappings suspended in the oil.

Maybe of even greater benefit is that I discovered by having the hives at least 18" off the ground, one can pull the tray and look into the hive from the bottom. It brings back bad memories of working underneath Volkswagon Rabbits as a teenager, but how often do you get to see how a hive operates from the bottom?

Based on my limited perspective thus far, I am inclined to leave the tray in year-round, pulling it only for maintenance or hive observation.

These are the musings of a greenhorn, so I welcome anyone to push back on my logic.


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## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Juhani:
> 
> An experiment between local swarms and purpose-bred stock sounds like a worthwhile exercise.
> 
> Based on your extensive experience in breeding for treatment-free survival traits I wonder:
> 
> 1. Do you see these traits mitigated in subsequent generations after open-mating with local drones? And;
> 
> 2. Related to (1)- assuming that the local stock exhibits some degree of resistance in our specific locale, would bringing in outside stock seek only to augment this resistance in future generations, or could it possibly upset adaptation that has/is occurred/occurring?
> 
> 3. While it might be difficult for you to answer based on your location, are there particular lines you are following in the US that exhibit the most promise to you based on your own local observations?
> 
> Thank you again for your input. It is most appreciated.
> 
> Russ


1. Mating with local drones depends on the local drones, but if they are totally non-resistant/unselected the effect of them is of course negative, resistance brought outside will disappear quickly. 
2.I don´t believe outside varroa resistant material could upset the good sides what possibly is (possibly not!) in local bee stock, it is only to benefit, maybe some minor things need to be adjusted, like wintering ability if the material is from far south
3. BeeWeaver, VSH lines from Baton Rouge, mite biters of Purdue University, I have heard much about them but because we cannot import anything from US, I have no personal experience. Of course some people here on BeeSource say bad things of for instance BeeWeaver, but on average, in my mind, the reports are very encouraging. 

I´m glad if I can be of any help. 
(Your language is interesting, sounds somewhat aristocratic or old to me, some phrases may have not opened to me totally.)


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## GregB

Juhani Lunden said:


> 1. Mating with local drones depends on the local drones, but if they are totally non-resistant/unselected the effect of them is of course negative, resistance brought outside will disappear quickly.


Indeed, these talks of so-called "local mating" (as for me) are mostly silly UNTIL you know with some certainty what drone is present in the area.
In my case random "local mating" will most certainty amount to mating with drones imported from almond pollination. 
There is not much good in such "local mating". 

If any "good" drones are present in the area, need to coordinate the open mating with the presence of those "good" drones.
One need to find out of the good drones somehow; time your splitting appropriately; move your mating nucs to better locations if have to.


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## mischief

Hi L,
I have mesh floors with solid boards underneath them. These came with my long hive and have the squares marked out to make it easier to do mite counts.
I find them as useful as you do for all the reasons you mentioned.

I found that my bees do not like the bottom left open at all and run around like mad things, so I have stopped lying down to look up through the mesh.

I heavily oil the solid boards and found that any wax moth that gets in under the hive gets stuck and dies, so too, the mites that fall.


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## Litsinger

Juhani: 

Again, thank you for your help and feedback. I really respect your opinion.

Your responses were what I expected and it helps inform my decisions going forward. 

I do apologize for my archaic vocabulary- I read too many 18th and 19th century novels as a kid!

GregV:

Your points are well-founded and reflect my line of questioning to Juhani, specifically:

If we assume that our local genetics are terrible, the importation of mated queens only supports (directly) the hive she is in and the drones they issue. Subsequent splits and supercedures (supported by open mating) would reflect increasing amounts of local genetics and thereby decreasing resistance.

Assuming no local resistance, it changes my whole paradigm of how I am currently approaching genetics- such that I can only think of four paths forward:

1. Learn how to AI queens (unlikely).
2. Dominate my DCA's (unlikely).
3. Move to the island Dr. Seeley did his swarm experiments on (highly unlikely).
4. Hang it all and buy a vaporizer (possible).

In all seriousness, you make valid points and I respect what you are trying to do. 

It seems the most prudent course of action is to take a couple of years to see how the local genetics play-out and then evaluate from there.

Finally, I just noted that you are chronicling your efforts as well- I look forward to catching-up on your posts this Winter.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> 2. Dominate my DCA's (unlikely).


Litsinger, I would actually argue for this exact point.
I think there is a merit in this particular effort in that you just need to be significantly present in the area and also propagate aggressively, to get the ball rolling.
No need to totally dominate (not possible anyway).
Of course, need to have some worthy stock to begin with.
Which I did starting last year - got me few feral queens from the outside.

This year I did a couple of things to put up some fight for the air space dominance (sounds like WWII deal very much - "control of the air"; which I kinda like, hehe..):
1)placed my two survivors on separate yards (but within overlapping range - maybe a 1/2 mile apart directly)
2)made all the efforts possible to hold the splitting/swarming until I had my own flying drones (my survivors were very, very slow starters - no drones until very end of June)
3)when my drones were finally up - split both survivors as much as I could (ended up with 7 wintering units out of the 2 units)

OK, so the point being is that I wanted these two colonies to cross-pollinate each other as much as possible (trying to compete with all the "almond" drones flying around me).
We'll see, but I am optimistic.
Using the year 2017 as my base, the survivability is looking better so far.

4)also, I took a nuc to TF friend's yard and got me a queen from him (she also mated in his yard); 
I plan something similar again for the next year - sending mating nucs away to known TF yards to, hopefully, get me mated queens from those yards.
I have at least a couple of guys who are doing what I am doing in driving distance - we should stick it together for the air control.
Something to consider.

Here is a fun topic, if care to review.
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...e-spot-queen-rearing-questions-(lots-of-them)


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## Litsinger

GregV: Thank you for that feedback. You may very well be on exactly the right path with this line of logic. In fact, it seems that Dr. Seeley's recent research from the Arnot Forest supports your position.

Regardless, it seems I need to determine what the local bees are made of before coming to any conclusions about trying to introduce new genetics to the mix.

That said, I am not opposed to introducing new genetics, and I look forward to seeing what emerges from your efforts.

Thanks again for your input. I sincerely appreciate it. 

Russ


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## Litsinger

Mischief:

Thank you for your response. I sincerely appreciate you sharing your experience.

While I haven't noticed pandamonium when I pull the tray, I definately notice an audible "roar". Reminds me that there are truly no manipulations/observations (save maybe at the hive entrance) that we can do without disrupting hive dynamics- Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle?

That said, I appreciate your comment about wax moths. While I've not seen them in the tray, I have seen their larvae (I'll save that for another post).

An example of one for the "Chronicles of the Bad Beekeeper" files, I noticed with one hive that there were a couple handfuls-worth of dead bees in the oil tray. Assuming they were gaining entry from the outside, I did what I could to plug any hole I figured a bee could gain entry by and renewed the oil.

Some weeks later, the tray is again found to be filled with two handfuls of bees- investigating further I discovered that there was a bee-sized gap between the screen and the bottom board such that they were gaining entry from the inside!

The lesson-learned is that I now check all my bottom boards carefully when assembling/renewing and have begun adding extra staples as a precaution.

Thanks again for sharing your insights. Feel welcome to chime-in anytime.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV: ...In fact, it seems that Dr. Seeley's recent research from the Arnot Forest supports your position...Russ


Dr. Seeley's writings are, actually, got me to think this way.


This is where a hive designs that favor small-cluster wintering plug in.
Wintering on 4-5 frames in a normal thing to do for my bees as I watch them second winter now (gasp!).
Totally normal.

My non-ending toy these are - those darn hives.


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## Litsinger

GregV:

Thank you for your input. I look forward to reading about your project and I am experimenting (o.k. I admit it is a mistake) with a single medium nuc. While I am not optimistic they are going to make it, I piled the sugar on and wished them well... I hear often of people getting bees to overwinter successfully in clusters a lot smaller than I would have assumed could make it- I'll enjoy watching your project unfold.

Thanks again for sharing and always feel welcome to interject any words of wisdom you have.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Thank you for your input. I look forward to reading about your project and I am experimenting (o.k. I admit it is a mistake) with a single medium nuc.* While I am not optimistic they are going to make it, I piled the sugar on and wished them well..*. I hear often of people getting bees to overwinter successfully in clusters a lot smaller than I would have assumed could make it- I'll enjoy watching your project unfold.
> 
> Thanks again for sharing and always feel welcome to interject any words of wisdom you have.


They will be fine. 
KY - should not be too bad.
I have wintered very late swarms on just about only dry sugar.
Commercial bees too - did fine (until the next season).


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## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Learn how to AI queens (unlikely).
> 
> It seems the most prudent course of action is to take a couple of years to see how the local genetics play-out and then evaluate from there.


Needs some practicing but with a good teacher it is quite simple. 
Even when starting with local genetics only (putting all eggs in the same basket...possibly wasting couple years...) insemination would enable to save and concentrate if there is something worth saving. Insemination can be bought as a service, too. 
If we are talking about an area where there are other beekeepers around, I seriously doubt, based on my own experience, the ability to dominate DCA with anything less than 20 hives (all raising a lot of desired drones).


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## Litsinger

GregV: 

Thank you for the encouragement on the small nuc- I will be rooting for them 🙂.

Juhani:

I admire your perspective because I know you have successfully accomplished what you are describing.

Your point about expanding my horizons is well-taken, knowing that having some of these advanced beekeeping skills would likely be helpful regardless of what emerges in the local genetic pool.

There is an individual in Southeast Missouri who I understand is AI'ing survivor-stock queens and it might do me good to reach-out to him.

I also appreciate your point about not wasting time- the older I get, the more I realize just how precious a commodity our time is.

While I'll save my extended thoughts about exploring the genetic resources in our area for a later post, the abstract would be:

Seek to hive and maintain as much diverse local swarm stock as practical, focusing trapping efforts in areas where known multi-year colonies currently reside. 

In short, my initial efforts would not focus on winnowing stock for specific traits, but to have the survivor genetics available even if the hives are hot, swarmy, bad honey producers, etc.

In other words, if they can survive on their own despite my mis-management, they would get to hang-around.


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## Michael Bush

A SBB with a tray works just fine and stays drier than a solid bottom does. I'm not sure which lasts longer, but I'm leaning towards the SBB. They stay drier and that helps them last longer.


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## Litsinger

I discovered that the concept of the unlimited broodnest is a bit of a misnomer. My revelation will be obvious to anyone who has kept bees for any length of time, but the reality is that one queen can only lay so many eggs in a day, and this maximum egg laying rate slows or stops based on the season and available forage.

While I still may not have a complete view on this, it seems that the working definition for an unlimited broodnest is that all the volume within the hive is available to her to lay eggs.

One of the main objections I heard from experienced beekeepers in my area was that without a queen excluder I would have to deal with brood in the honey supers. While I learned that this can in-fact be true, I learned that two things make this a non-issue (in general):

1. Depending on when (and how) you harvest honey, the broodnest may have receded back down into the lower reaches of the hive. If you have no objection to harvesting capped honey stored in cells previously occupied by brood, it is no problem.

2. Depending on the overall hive volume, the fact that there are only so many eggs the queen can lay works to your advantage- she simply can't lay enough eggs to fill the whole hive with brood (even if the colony wanted to).

As I alluded to, these are obvious things any experienced beekeeper knows, but I am hoping this thread might be of some help to other beginners in the future.

My limited experience with the concept of an unlimited broodnest is a positive one, though I am not "anti queen excluder".

In fact, reading some of the innovative things that our own squarepeg is doing with queen excluders in his large-volume hives is very interesting and seems to hold a lot of merit.


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## GregB

Juhani Lunden said:


> If we are talking about an area where there are other beekeepers around, I seriously doubt, based on my own experience, the ability to dominate DCA with anything less than 20 hives (all raising a lot of desired drones).


Remains to be seen.
It is not so bad, granted no massive commercial beekeepers are in the area (I have none of those in the vicinity thanks to a suburban location - a very good thing).
Conventional backyard keepers are less of a concern.

Keep in mind that most conventional backyard beekeepers minimize the drone as much as possible (because this is how the conventional, intensive honey production preaching goes).
They control their own drone in a variety of ways - 1)using standard worker foundation; 2)active destroying of the drone larva (including a anti-varroa measures); 3)annual replacement of the queens are the most obvious ways.

What they do is beneficial to us, in the air dominance competition.

Just do the opposite....
Let the desired colonies to 1)build natural comb and 2)produce as much drone as they desire and 3)maintain the desired queen for as long as possible (they can produce drone up to 5-6 years and should be let to do so).
I like the idea of maintaining special drone-generating units by design using old desired queens - really, a no-brainer thing to do. Costs about nothing (some old hive in a corner will do).


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## Beebeard

Regarding QE and honey harvest: You can run unlimited brood until the end of the flow, then smoke or shake everybody down and add the QE. come back in a month and all the brood is out of the honey. Harvest what you wish, remove the QE and done. Its a bit more work, but with a small number of hives not too bad. Leave an upper entrance open if there are drone cells.


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## JWChesnut

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## crofter

Some people will place a +value on pollen in their honey but the majority of buyers are put off by the haze and eventual (as they see it) scum it produces when it rises to the top and streaks through the contents if you invert the jar; Eye appeal suffers.

I have only limited experience with unlimited brood area and upper entrances but it appeared to result in much more pollen in the honey and quicker crystallization in storage.


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## Litsinger

Michael Bush:

Thank you for your feedback on my post- I am honored. I've spent many an hour reading your thoughts on beekeeping based on your experience and I am always impressed with the amount of consideration that goes into each of your recommendations. Ultimately, I find it hard to argue against your logic and rationale.

Your comment about the SBB's and trays being a means to extend the life of your bottom boards makes perfect sense to me, and it is not something I had considered. 

Thank you for providing your perspective, and always feel welcome to share any words of wisdom you have!


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## Litsinger

GregV:

Good response. I will save it for another post, but I am convinced as of now that natural comb is the way to go. I realize there are more factors involved in overall colony health and disease/pest resistance than we can ever hope to pin-down, but I *think* that natural comb at a bare-minimum can do no harm (I am prepared to be proven completely wrong).

That said, I am speaking from a very narrow vantage point, so all I am prepared to say at this point is that I plan to move from small-cell foundation to foundationless to see what happens.


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## Litsinger

Beebeard (love the handle, BTW):

Thank you for the detailed description on using the QE after the flow- that was really helpful. I think this is similar to what Squarepeg is doing now if I understand him correctly.

Also, great idea on the upper entrance- I hadn't thought through all that.

I do run upper entrances, and found that the bees use both the lower and upper entrances extensively.

I also made an interesting observation (or at least I thought so) that I'll share in a subsequent post.

Thank you again for your input- I do appreciate you sharing. Feel welcome to chime-in anytime.


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## Litsinger

Crofter:

Thank you for your insight on unlimited broodnest- you make several excellent points.

In truth, I have not been overly focused on the marketability of the end product just yet, so your points give one a lot to think about as I assume most of us (present company included) would like to have the fruits of our labor to be a product that people will want. So:

Step 1- Keep bees alive.

Step 2- Figure out how to make money with live bees.

I've heard that beekeeping is for people who love work and hate money... and so far, my bee-owning fits this to a tee.

In all seriousness, your points are helpful and I appreciate you sharing them. Please feel welcome to share your insights anytime.


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## Litsinger

Today's high of 58 and moderate temperatures predicted for the next several days allowed the opportunity to make proverbial lemonade out of lemons by putting some additional stores from two dead-outs on the two hives that remain alive.

Prior to today, the two May-captured swarms were three and four medium boxes tall respectively and I added two and one boxes respectively to get them both at five 8-frame medium boxes tall. While they might yet die from a 100 other reasons this Winter, at least they won't die for lack of stores.

My rationale for having them five high is that the consensus for successfully Checkerboarding in my area with 8-frame mediums is to have them this tall.

Hive #3 was loosely clustered in the 3rd box (i.e. the previous top box) offset one frame to the South. Looked to be 2-1/2 - 3 frames of bees.

Hive #4 is still down in the bottom of the hive. I was unable to evaluate cluster size as I did not want to tear their stack down.

Both hives were moved to the previous locations of Hives #1 and #2 (April package dead-outs) this past Saturday (12.8) at a temperature of approximately 30 degrees F. 

Today was the first flying weather since, and the hives were both orienting. I saw approximately two-dozen bees flying around the area where Hive #3 was previously and I figured they had failed to orient prior to leaving their new location. As it were, I returned near dark and found no bees alighted on the adjacent trees nor saw any fliers, so I figured they were just making certain their home was really not there anymore...

Both hives were bringing in some orange-yellow pollen, and I figure it was dandilion as there is not much blooming here now.

It looks as though the 18 degree F low on Monday night (12.10) froze-out the one remaining nuc. Reminded me afresh to never make nucs in July again. I'll conduct a postmortem as soon as I can and see if there is anything interesting to report.


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## Litsinger

I thought I would address my narrow perspective on regressed bees and small-cell in one post as it seems that they tend to go together. Indeed- it seems you can't have and maintain one without the other. 

Let me say at the outset that I have exactly one season under my belt relative to these paradigms, so I definately do not qualify as an expert- but I did stay at a Holiday Inn before writing this post. 🙂

In summation, my results this year would suggest that these features may possibly fall into the category of "do no harm", but are certainly not a panacea. While I've lived long enough to not expect anything to work perfectly, I was surprised at how mites were able to reproduce seemingly unabated in this system despite my judicious adherence to the framework.

Specifically, I installed two regressed packages in April on 4.9 mm foundation and installed according to Housel positioning and by early December, both were felled as a result of varroa infestation. 

Both packages built-up amazingly and completed the year by drawing-out 4-1/2 and 5-1/2 8-frame medium boxes respectively and were impressively staffed through the Spring flow.

By having SHB trays, I was able to conduct defacto mite drops over the season and watched the drops climb before reaching a crescendo in early October with dead mites beyond count in both trays.

On a positive note, this debacle allowed me to have plenty of drawn comb for the two remaining hives and allowed me an up-close view of what mite frass looks like.

One key point I should mention (and I think it is important) is that I fed both hives extensively early in the year as suggested by the package supplier. While I will save a detailed evaluation on this for a later post, I am of the opinion that supplemental feeding has a big impact on mite reproduction. I am certain that this point is obvious to many of you. I am not saying that I think supplemental feeding is bad, but that supplemental feeding may induce continued brooding and thus increased mite reproduction, making TF beekeeping that much more difficult when feeding.

As mentioned in previous posts, I also hived two swarms in early May. Similar to the packages, I fed the swarms, but not as extensively. As compared to the packages, the relative mite drops (unscientific as it was) were much lower in the swarms throughout the season and never rose above a couple dozen in a 48 hour sampling period. While I am not ready to declare that captured swarms are the path forward for treatment-free in my area, I can say that the swarms mitigated mite build-up better than the packages under similar conditions.

As such, one of my immediate goals for next year will involve attempting to hive more captured swarms for further evaluation. 

So after one year of beekeeping without any external mite treatments (SHB trays aside), the only conclusion I can draw thus far is that low mite loads are better than high mite loads all other factors equal- and that it seems to me that one of the main factors to successful TF beekeeping is having bees which can internally manage mite load throughout the year without external management. Obvious, I know- but important for figuring out how to make such an approach sustainable year-over-year.


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## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> As mentioned in previous posts, I also hived two swarms in early May. Similar to the packages, I fed the swarms, but not as extensively.


Was there a difference in the autumn (before collapse) strength of the packages versus swarms?


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## jadebees

After trying every type of treatment free thing that is put out there, it seems like most of it is hooey.

Odfrank's post sums it up more eloquently than I would.


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## Litsinger

Juhani:

Good question. Both of the packages were stronger in terms of total hive numbers prior to collapse. I believe that part of the difference is that both hived swarms significantly slowed brood production during our dearth (early July - mid September this year) while the packages slowed a bit but not nearly as significantly. I expect that supplemental feeding could have contributed to this discrepancy, though Hive #4 (swarm) was fed approximately equally (intermittent) to the packages during this time as it was slow to build-up in general. Also, I expect contributing to the dynamic was that I observed two supercedures this year:

Hive #1 (package) superceded in early June.

Hive #4 (swarm) superceded in late August.

I imagine that this late supercedure helped contribute to lower mite pressure in this particular hive.

I welcome your input, as I know you have studied this dynamic in great detail.

Thank you always for your help. Have a great day.


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## Litsinger

jadebees:

Thank you for your response. I sincerely appreciate you sharing.

Part of my reason for starting this post was to give honest evaluations of the various TF techniques/management decisions that I've tried (and plan to try) from a rank amateur's perspective to hopefully help others who are just starting out in the future to consider some of the things you can't really appreciate (good or bad) until you've tried them on for size.

I have no allusions of guaranteed success and hope that this forum can be of help to others in the future succeed or fail.

Thanks again for sharing.

Russ


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## drummerboy

Very cool, very friendly discussion here. I applaud everyone offering their perspective and opinions.

A lot has changed since I first became acquainted w/ honeybees, as a laborer tending a migratory (1500-2000 colonies) operation in the mid 70's. After that experience I was an off and on Bee 'haver' for over 30 years, finally becoming a bee 'keeper' around 2007. There has been LOTS of changes since then, many of which have been adopted in our small beeyard (room for about a dozen colonies) located in the forests of northwest Wisconsin.

Standardized equipment was/is an efficient and easy conversion to make (all mediums) and I have MB to thank for that (I printed his book off the internet, then bought a copy once it was officially published).

All was going well with acceptable losses (sometimes no loses at all) for several years until 2016 when a commercial beekeeper began setting up yards all around us ( 3 of them w/in 2 miles of us) and we were inundated w/ mites, loosing all 8 of our colonies before Spring (at least 3 of which had been going strong for 3 years or more). All that's left of those other yards is the fencing, they didn't place any hives around us last summer (Hoo-Ray!), I think they went BUST, but don't know for sure since we never saw the Beek. Yesterday with just a little bit of sunshine, no wind and a temp of 28F, we had bees flying/pooping and dragging out the dead in all 3 of our winter hives the way they're supposed to. If they make it to the first dandelions they will be split depending on that first inspection.

The primary thing we do differently now then in 2007 (thanks to the wisdom offered from Tom Seeley) is to keep our colonies small (2 mediums max broodnest), along with over-wintering a few Nucs, brought back the Q excluders after years of non use (glad I didn't pitch them out), in order to keep them small, allow swarming (we no longer fret about swarming) to take place OR simply/preferably split strong colonies at the appropriate time. We end up spending a little more time with each hive this way, but I aint gonna complain about that.

So, after loosing all of our bees 2 summers ago (a disheartening first) we've re-invented our methods of keeping bees alive in Northern Wisconsin with that emphasis alone. We've always felt that a good honey harvest was secondary to keeping them alive so little has changed in that regard.

Thanks again for this discussion.

We remain;l TF, all mediums and foundationless since 2007.

Good Luck to all in 2019!


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## clong

Litsinger said:


> I am of the opinion that supplemental feeding has a big impact on mite reproduction. I am certain that this point is obvious to many of you. I am not saying that I think supplemental feeding is bad, but that supplemental feeding may induce continued brooding and thus increased mite reproduction, making TF beekeeping that much more difficult when feeding.
> 
> As mentioned in previous posts, I also hived two swarms in early May. Similar to the packages, I fed the swarms, but not as extensively. As compared to the packages, the relative mite drops (unscientific as it was) were much lower in the swarms throughout the season and never rose above a couple dozen in a 48 hour sampling period. While I am not ready to declare that captured swarms are the path forward for treatment-free in my area, I can say that the swarms mitigated mite build-up better than the packages under similar conditions.


Your experience mirrors mine. I started my first year with two Georgia packages and fed them like crazy. They were productive. I actually got to take 20 pounds of honey. They were dead by the beginning of November. I'm not sure about your feeding theory, but I am beginning to wonder...

Since then, I've purchased two nucs and one other package. Most of the rest of my bees were acquired through swarms. The only bees that have made it through winter are from swarms. I seldom feed bees now, unless the hive seems light in the fall. Even then, I tend to underfeed, and then put sugar bricks on the frames of the top box.


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## Litsinger

Drummerboy:

Thank you for your interesting and helpful post. I really enjoyed learning about your TF experience over the past 10 years. That means you have ten times more experience than I do!

One common refrain among TF beekeepers seems to be that local dynamics have a huge impact on the success or failure of one's individual yard(s), and it sounds like your experience reflects that too?

It is also neat to hear about how you are adapting to the changing dynamic- I assume you are keeping your colony volumes small to mimic typical feral conditions?

If I might ask, what has been the genetic source(s) of your bees over the years? I'm not asking for names, just were they standard packages, regressed, VSH, caught swarms, etc.?

Finally, I appreciate you outlining your goals, as it reminded me that success in beekeeping is something we get to define based on our overall reason for practicing and what we hope to get out of it.

I am glad you shared, and please always feel welcome to offer your words of wisdom or observations you have made.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Clong:

I am really glad you replied. I have seen many of your posts here, and I have learned a lot from some of the questions you've asked- they've helped lessen the learning curve.

The supplemental feeding bit is not a hill I'm ready to die on yet (or maybe ever) but I am fascinated by the dynamic inter-relationship that forage availability, reserve stores and overall hive volume have on brooding in general, and early season in specific.

I do not have any answers, but my hypothesis (o.k. my guess) at this point is that significantly reduced breeding during summer dearth along with timely supercedure might be part of the adaption which allows colonies to combat varroa on their own- just speculating.

If this is true, continued feeding through a dearth might mask forage scarcity and seek to mitigate brood reduction... just a working theory.

That said, you have more experience at this, and I welcome you to share your thoughts anytime.

Thanks again for your post.

Russ


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## squarepeg

drummerboy said:


> ...we've re-invented our methods of keeping bees alive in Northern Wisconsin with that emphasis alone.


nice to see you chiming in db. if you have time please consider starting a thread and letting us know more about that story. it would be great to have some reporting coming in from the far north.


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## Litsinger

The final fundamental management decision I made in this first year of my return to beekeeping was to adhere to the idea of Housel positioning of the frames. I understand that this idea is old-hat to those who have been keeping bees for any length of time, but the idea is to place your embossed foundation within each frame such that the imprinted 'Y' in the bottom of the cell is always oriented to the outboard side of the box. In other words, if you are looking down on a box from above, there is an imaginary center-line running the length of the box, and the 'Y''s are up to the left and the right respectively of this division line. As I understand it, this approach is intended to mimic how a colony will construct their comb in an unmanaged setting.

From a practical standpoint, I realized quickly that I had to install the foundation prior to marking the frames due to the fact that I was running wedge top bars with solid grooved bottom bars and wired foundation, and there seemed to be no consistency in which way the hooks were bent relative to the way the cells were imprinted. 

After a year of using Housel positioning, I've been unable to conclude whether it is beneficial or not- one thing I do know, is that when I have cycled-in foundationless frames into a hive with Housel positioning maintained, it does not appear that the foundationless frames have been explicitly drawn-out to adhere to the paradigm.

All that said, at this point I am of the opinion that Housel positioning could be filed in the "Can't Hurt" category, and here is my rationale:

It seems that there is generally consensus on the overall understanding that colonies organize their volume based on some fairly-well defined fundamentals (i.e. placement of pollen/bee-bread, stores, drones, etc.) and that nurse bees seem to have a fairly narrow geographic footprint within the colony where they work. More directly, when left to their own devices, colonies have a definite opinion about how to organize their home. 

Having the frames marked at least helps me make sure I put the frame back into the box in the same orientation that I took it out, and it seems logical to me that this likely causes less disruption overall.

Also, I have taken to marking the 'front' of each box with a red mark to make sure that I put the box back on in the same orientation that I took it off. It speaks to my shortcomings as a beekeeper, but I have found that in the heat of the inspection effort I can forget which way I turned a box (i.e. rotated left or right) to stack boxes at generally right angles when inspecting, so this helps me orient the box back in the stack the way it came off.

So in conclusion, whether Housel positioning is a benefit or not I don't know, but I do like having a visual means to make sure I put things back the way I found them.









I plan to follow-up with a post about several things I've learned this year, and then follow that with my goals for 2019.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> The final fundamental management decision I made in this first year of my return to beekeeping was to adhere to the idea of* Housel positioning* of the frames......


I decided to not even bother with this "Housel posisitioning" for a number of reasons.

1) I just do natural comb at 100% - they have choices and full control in the comb construction and management. 
That is not my business. 

In fact, IF the bees are really bothered by the comb for any reason, they WILL destroy it and rebuild it. 
Natural comb makes it easier too - no foundation.
Also, it is very unpractical in a framed/barred hive to set one and the only original comb placement and never violate it - so the "Housel posisitioning" quickly goes out of the window.

2) Somehow this "Housel posisitioning" assumes the bees, given a chance, will build the comb in properly parallel ways - not the case. 
This is only one common orientation; but erratic, non-parallel free combs are just about as common. 
So then does the "Housel posisitioning" still apply? 
And if YES, can someone demonstrate that? 
I am yet to see such a demo.

3)The "Housel posisitioning" somehow assumes the colony life-cycle starts at the blank, pristine empty cavity.
Again, not the case - many times (if not most times), the colony will re-occupy a cavity with pre-existing combs from a dead out tree cavity/a trap/empty hive.
So, most often they will reuse the current structures as-is after some cleanup (Housel or no-Housel) and will get down to the business. 
If the Housel thing was such a critical deal, most any moved-in structure would be initially destroyed down to the bones and rebuild from zero again - just not the case as we see routinely.

I feel natural comb frames are plenty good in this regard and don't worry of the other minutia.
At some point beekeepers' practical consideration also have some weight. 

But, btw, did you see my post about "forget frames/forget bars" - regarding a free-comb nest block idea?
If concerned with Housel-type issues, I find the idea of "free-comb" block pretty practical and way, way better for the bees' well being than any artificial foundation regardless however "proper" it may be (and worth experimenting too).


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## msl

> I am of the opinion that supplemental feeding has a big impact on mite reproduction. I am certain that this point is obvious to many of you. I am not saying that I think supplemental feeding is bad, but that supplemental feeding may induce continued brooding and thus increased mite reproduction, making TF beekeeping that much more difficult when feeding.


From what I have seen its pollen flow that has a large impact on brood rearing... some times here it gets dry, there is still pollen but nectar drys up quite a bit. the bees chew threw there stores rearing brood and I end up having to put on emergy feed.
I have taken to harvesting and making splits at this time, the brood break causes them to use honey. I get a much better harvest and end up feeding far less sugar


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## Litsinger

GregV:

Thank you for your excellent response on Housel positioning- no arguments from me.

In fact, I was saving the punch line for my post on 2019 goals, but one of them is to move as quickly as practical toward a foundationless framed comb paradigm.

While I am not ready to take the frameless plunge, it is hard to find fault in that method from the perspective of comb efficiency and letting the colony decide what is best for them- what is best for the beekeeper however...

Thanks again for your input.

Russ


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## Litsinger

msl:

Thank you for your input, and your point about pollen availability is very perceptive in my opinion. I hadn't considered that aspect deeply, but like you we live in a region of the country where pollen tends to be available most of the year- even when nectar is in short supply. Considering that, and if brooding is somehow tied to pollen availability I can see how this pollen versus nectar mismatch could present problems.

Have you ever experimented with leaving additional stores on selected colonies to see how their response to stores compares with supplemental feeding?

I do appreciate you sharing- it is obvious from your posts here on Beesource that you have a lot of first-hand experience in beekeeping and have already thought through many of these questions I have. Please feel most welcome to share your thoughts anytime.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Adding an observation I made regarding upper entrances this season which may very well be obvious to most, but was new to me.

Having never run (or even heard of) upper entrances when I was younger, I thought it would be interesting to give them a go.

I installed them at the very top of all of my production hives this season once they were at an adequate strength to successfully defend the opening, moving them up as boxes were drawn-out. I did so by using a feeding shim with a 1" diameter opening in one end.

I observed that all the colonies began utilizing the upper entrances for foraging, and all began propolizing the opening to varying degrees. I decided that they knew best what they wanted/needed, so I left them to close it off if they saw fit to do so.

Given that they were occluding the openings even during the height of hot weather and while running screened inner covers, I assumed they were restricting the openings for the express purpose of making it more defensible.

Once milder weather set-in and solid inners were installed, I noted they continued to work on these openings, assuming they intended to close them off. Interestingly enough (at least to me), both caught swarms eventually contented themselves with a particular opening size. It will be interesting to see if they modify this opening throughout the upcoming season if fate allows.





















Based only on what I saw this year, I might be inclined to run reduced lower entrances and bee-modified upper entrances as the standard set-up. We'll see...

Also, I never observed small-hive beetles enter through the upper entrance though I saw them gaining entry by the dozens at the lower entrance- might be strictly coincidental.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Adding an observation....


Thanks for the pics, Russ!
Good demo.


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## Litsinger

Thanks, GregV. There seems to be no limit to the interesting things one can learn about these little buggers... o.k. Hymenoptera, but whatever 😉


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## mischief

Litsinger said:


> Mischief:
> 
> Thank you for your response. I sincerely appreciate you sharing your experience.
> 
> While I haven't noticed pandamonium when I pull the tray, I definately notice an audible "roar". Reminds me that there are truly no manipulations/observations (save maybe at the hive entrance) that we can do without disrupting hive dynamics- Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle?
> 
> That said, I appreciate your comment about wax moths. While I've not seen them in the tray, I have seen their larvae (I'll save that for another post).
> 
> An example of one for the "Chronicles of the Bad Beekeeper" files, I noticed with one hive that there were a couple handfuls-worth of dead bees in the oil tray. Assuming they were gaining entry from the outside, I did what I could to plug any hole I figured a bee could gain entry by and renewed the oil.
> 
> Some weeks later, the tray is again found to be filled with two handfuls of bees- investigating further I discovered that there was a bee-sized gap between the screen and the bottom board such that they were gaining entry from the inside!
> 
> The lesson-learned is that I now check all my bottom boards carefully when assembling/renewing and have begun adding extra staples as a precaution.
> 
> Thanks again for sharing your insights. Feel welcome to chime-in anytime.


I'm going out to check the mesh on mine now!
I have only found the odd few bees on the solid board and just assumed that it got in there when I wasnt looking.


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## Litsinger

Mischief:

Thank you for your reply. Glad to hear that I am not the only one to end up with a few unfortunate strays.

You're in the Southern Hemisphere, right?

How has the season shaped-up for you thus far?

Thanks again for sharing, and Merry Christmas!


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## jnqpblk

odfrank, From my own near 2 decades of beekeeping, that is a well said reply.


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## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> The final fundamental management decision I made in this first year of my return to beekeeping was to adhere to the idea of Housel positioning of the frames.
> So in conclusion, whether Housel positioning is a benefit or not I don't know, but I do like having a visual means to make sure I put things back the way I found them.


I have probably read dozens of messages about housel positioning. The whole thing must have seemed me so obvious Hockus pockus that I never even gave it two seconds so that I would understand what it really means. Now that Litsinger explained it with photos I think I understand what it is. 
I actually went to my warehouse to get one piece of foundation...

Are there any studies confirming that bees really build this way in nature?


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## Litsinger

jnqpblk:

Thank you for your input. I do sincerely appreciate experienced beekeepers like yourself taking the time to share their wisdom. As Confucious said, "By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest."

I can confidently say I have painfully gained quite a lot of experience this year 🙂.

Thank you again for commenting, and please always feel welcome to share your insights- I'm not above imitation!

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Juhani:

Thank you for your reply. I am unaware of any scholarly research that has been conducted regarding Housel positioning, and I expect that the most extensive treatment of it is housed right here on Beesource:

https://beesource.com/point-of-view...ning-how-i-view-its-importance-to-beekeeping/

That said, I have read where many here on Beesource have experimented with it and likely have much more perspective on it than I.

As I alluded to, I have not found strong evidence for this phenomena in my limited experience, but find the visual markers to help me reinstall frames in the same orientation I removed them helpful.

After considering it, do you see any merit in either the comb drawing aspect and/or the benefit of installing combs back in the way they came out?


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## gww

I am foundationless and lazy. Many times when I get a fat comb drawn or one bowing out or going crooked, I flip them and smash them against the wall of the hive or other comb. I do this for me so the bees will cut the comb back down to get their bee space back. It makes handling the combs better for me and might not be helping the bees but they seem to live through it.

So I do not worry about the housel positioning. I have read about it but already had my habits and did not seem to be being hurt by it. From what I read, the biggest thing housel was supposed to help with was causing the bees to superceed the queen. This is something that could probably be missed when going on but I have not noticed it happen yet. I am only going into my third winter and so don't know it all. I do know that you can mess up pretty bad in the hives with moving stuff around and even breaking or cutting comb and the bees just keep trucking.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

Took a quick stroll through the bee yard given it is about 50 degrees F and lightly raining. Made two observations:

1. The cluster in Hive #3 has moved to the center of the very top box. This is the hive that I added two medium supers of mainly capped stores to mid-week, meaning they are five 8-frame mediums tall. Before I added the two supers, they were at the top of the stack. I find this behavior curious, and I wonder what this portends for this hive through the winter? I did not have to pull the outer/inner cover as I could see the cluster through the upper entrance.

2. Tore down the nuc deadout from early in the week. There were no more than two handfuls of bees, but they were queenright. This is the nuc that I added a late usurpation swarm to, but the queen I found (photo below) was not the usurper queen, who had a solid dark brown abdomen. If nothing else, it was another queen to add to my QMP stew...

This leaves me with only two May hived swarms alive at present. Both packages and both nucs have bit the dust, but hope springs eternal.


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## squarepeg

Litsinger said:


> The cluster in Hive #3 has moved to the center of the very top box.


my interpretation is this indicates they are not brooding in the lower boxes at this time, and that they are taking advantage of the honey stores and the warmth trapped below your insulated top.

depending on how much and where the empty comb is located when the first tree pollens start coming in will determine where the cluster locates itself to start the first rounds of brood.


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## Litsinger

GWW:

I am glad you replied. I have really enjoyed reading your questions and posts on Squarepeg's chronicles.

While my weather may be more like SP's than yours, you may be the closest regular TF contributor to me on here?

I appreciate you sharing your observations and I have done a fair bit of comb mangling myself this year- observing how remarkably resourceful and resilient bees are. They often seem to find a way despite my mismanagement.

This is what has lead me to tentatively place Housel positioning in the "can't hurt" category.

I had not heard about the purported supercedure benefits of this approach, so I'll have to explore that a bit further.

I appreciate your comments here on Beesource, and please always feel welcome to share any advice or observations you have here.

Merry Christmas,

Russ


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## Litsinger

Squarepeg:

Thank you for your reply. You are likely exactly correct. My reason for questioning this move was based on:

1. I have an upper entrance and a solid inner cover with notch turned down (screened). I decided to err to the side of too much ventilation up top.

2. They were bringing pollen in during the middle of the week when it wasn't raining.

It's always interesting to try to figure out what the collective hive dynamics are.

Thank you again for your input. I do appreciate it!


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## squarepeg

i see an occasional bee bringing in bright yellow pollen here throughout the winter on those days warm enough for flight. 

i'm guessing it is coming from ornamentals kept by neighbors and/or the stray winter dandelion.

the first tree pollens start coming in heavily at or about mid-january here. these are usually a dirty pale yellow and i believe come from the tip tops of elms and maples.

when going in about late february or so to checkerboard the average colony will have its first round of brood capped or sometimes just emerged with the next round of eggs laid in those cells.


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## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> After considering it, do you see any merit in either the comb drawing aspect and/or the benefit of installing combs back in the way they came out?


I would forget about housel position as it is part of religion/ guru talk. It has nothing to do with TF beekeeping. I find it detrimental to the whole TF beekeepers group if we stick, or even approve, any woodoo methods just because somebody sometimes used them. I leads to a situation where we all are considered lunatics.

Putting frames back as they were is something totally different, it helps bees to maintain their order and temperature control.


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## gww

Russ


> I had not heard about the purported supercedure benefits of this approach, so I'll have to explore that a bit further.


When I wrote this part, it was suppose to convey that not keeping combs housel caused bad supercedure and it was a bad thing. I was just saying that I had not noticed this though I could miss it even looking.

An observation from me on how to look at your year. If your bees do live through winter and you protect the comb from the dead outs, you will have a decision to make. Will you want honey or more bees? The drawn comb from the dead outs will be very helpful either way. Three years and drawn comb is still the thing that I am lacking to experiment with the true potential of what my bees might actually be able to gather if everything was perfect.

I agree with your position of it can't hurt on the housel. I would like to get to where I can just take a quick glance by just tipping boxes and be able to tell hive status but being new have had to dig pretty deep and pretty often just to try and learn what I might be seeing. It always looks different then what reading put in my mind that it should look like. I am getting a little better at what I am seeing and will be by default more housel if I can get to where I don't have to mess much with brood nest and know enough just to glance and tell.

I hope everything works out well for you and that I can do a little learning through what you do like I have with squarepeg and also the many others on here who have advised me on my screw ups or argued with me over just bee stuff. I think because of that, that I am a little smarter then I was three years ago. I am still pretty dumb though. This forums participates have helped me in my endeavors with bees.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

Squarepeg:

Thank you for your detailed and helpful reply. I do sincerely appreciate all your help and advice!


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## Litsinger

Juhani:

GREAT advice about avoiding voodoo and gnosticism. Stick with the scientific method. This is why I really appreciate this forum- folks like me can learn from folks like you who are really doing it and are not afraid to share both your successes and failures in your efforts to be sustainably treatment-free.

Thanks again for all your help and advice. I've already learned much from you.

Russ


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## Litsinger

GWW:

Your reply brought a smile to my face because I completely identify with most everything you said- I too have been quite humbled when actually inspecting the inner workings of a colony and being bewildered by both the process and what I see (the book said the bees weren't supposed to do this)!

It has helped me appreciate the distinction between "bee owning" and "bee keeping".

I appreciate your question about considering my goals for next year. I hope to distill my thoughts in a cohesive post, but the overarching goal will be a proof-of-concept that TF is sustainable with captured swarms in my specific area (I'll flesh this thought out later).

To be honest, I was not prepared to see two regressed packages collapse so spectacularly, particularly when I felt like I did everything "right" (though I know I did quite a lot wrong).

It opened my eyes to the fact (which I understood conceptually) that there is MUCH more to TF beekeeping than 4.9 mm bees.

So, to answer your question my main goal next year will be to hive as much swarm stock that I can and see what happens!

Beyond that, my limited experience does not allow me to see much farther ahead.

I really appreciate your advice and encouragement- please feel welcome to share your insights or squash my off-target grandiose plans anytime!


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## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Thanks again for all your help and advice. I've already learned much from you.


Thank *you* very much!
One thing we Finns really need to learn, is the thanking, sending compliments and wishing well sort of thing. When it comes to that we are crap. But we mean all good, it is just against our nature to speak that way. Sort of a problem, or used to be, to our exporting industry too.


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## Litsinger

Thank you, Juhani. You Finns gave us Jean Sibelius, so that is certainly a very important contribution to the world.


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## jnqpblk

Juhani, As to the mattering of the Y being right side up or upside down, all I know is I don't care at all whatever direction they are, and as long as my comb is the fairly flat 1" thickness all the way across, I then am able to place any one of them any where I desire. (And I'm sure the odds are greatly against me to be placing frames totally at random, yet continuing to "always" get the Y's proper). And my bees have never ever given me any indication that it matters one whit to them either which way the Y goes, like ignoring a frame(s) that did indeed be Y turned around wrong.


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## AHudd

I have not examined much natural comb to see which way the Y goes, but on this piece it is sideways. 









Alex


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## Litsinger

jnqpblk and Alex:

Thank you both for your feedback. I sincerely appreciate your input and experience. While I won't presume to speak for Juhani, I think the position we both may share is that we are not focused on making sure the 'Y' is going a certain way (given that many have not been able to substantiate this phenomena in foundationless frames) as much as making an effort to put the frame back in the same orientation when removed for inspection. 

At least personally, I am using the Housel markings which are currently on my frames strictly as a visual cue to install any removed frames in the same direction they were removed.

I do appreciate you both sharing your thoughts, and please always feel welcome to share your experiences here.

Thank you again, and Merry Christmas.

Russ


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## mischief

Hi,
Yes, I am here down under.

The last two years have been a learning curve, thankfully, I still have live bees.

The last inspection showed lovely brood and that they have made a start on drone brood- I actually already knew that cos I could see three cells being made in the gaps of the plastic frames. I'm hoping to get my timing right so I get to watch them hatch. 
That will be a first. Having a window on the side has taught me alot.

I noticed alot of the built out frames full of nectar so I did spread them apart rather than wait til next time. Heaps of lovely pollen too. 

I dont think you speak old, but then I read alot of different things too.

One more week then its the big family day.
Wishing you a wonderful Xmas too.


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## Litsinger

Mischief:

Thank you for your reply. Summer is but a distant memory here. I am glad to hear your season is going well. You mentioned having a view window- are you using a garden-type hive set-up, or do you have standard 10 frame boxes with view windows cut in (or something else)?

You also mentioned spreading out your frames- are you running extra spacing in both your brood boxes and your honey supers or only in the supers?

Here's to a healthy and prosperous New Year for you and your family.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Twenty things I learned this year (in no particular order):

1. Beekeeping is hard (but rewarding) work.

2. Varroa mites are a scourage.

3. Small hive beetles aren't far behind.

4. A table saw is an absolute necessity.

5. Too little room for a colony is a bad thing.

6. Too much room for a colony is a really bad thing.

7. Foundationless really works- particularly when you introduce the frames in the right place at the right time.

8. Robbing screens are a must if you're going to make nucs in a dearth.

9. Don't make nucs in a dearth.

10. Bees are highly resilient and are able to overcome many (but not all) bee keeper errors.

11. Swarm traps really work.

12. A little smoke is your friend.

13. Don't do hive inspections in the dark.

14. Bees don't like lawnmowers.

15. You can apply Stockholm Syndrome on would-be robbers.

16. There are ways around moving hives more than 2 feet but less than 2 miles.

17. Bees do crazy, inexplicable things sometimes.

18. Their keepers do crazy, inexplicable things sometimes too.

19. People are always interested when they hear you keep bees.

20. Beekeeping is equal parts enjoyable, stimulating, maddening and humbling- often all at once.


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## jnqpblk

Litsinger
#4 Tablesaw, or money to buy retail.
#5 & #6 Inside or out side the hive? Inside, bees will deal with it appropriately (in the manner they were designed to do). In winter, they really do not heat that "extra space" much more than penguins heat the air of the Antarctic over winter.
#8 Robbing screens are generally not necessary provided a hive is healthy and has enough sense or enough of the defensive genes to do the job required to protect themselves from marauders. Not my job.
#9 But if you do, and 1 out of of the 4 nucs (as was my case during the latter part of the 5 month dearth this year) not only defended itself against robbers, (yes, 3 were crashed) but the 1 also requeened, so if that happens, ya may just consider that one a keeper, and do your darnedest to winter her over and get daughter queens.
#19 But once they realize that is all you ever talk about, they may avoid you like the plague.


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## Litsinger

jnqpblk:

Great reply. I'm afraid people already cringe when they ask me, "What have you been up to?" 

When you make nucs, are you letting them raise their own queens or making them queenright? My limited nuc building experience from this year suggested they got significantly more heart after they had raised a queen.

Thanks again for your input. I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


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## msl

Give this a watch when you have some time...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yxrawVF0Oc
add in the bees chew down poorer cells 
57% of the cells -Tarpy 2015
53% of the cells- Hatch 1999
the take home (GWW cliff note)is when left as a full hive they are fine but breaking in to nucs can lead to a lot of poor queens as the bees are left to deal with the hand they are dealt and don't chose the cells. The end result is grafted/swarm cells lead to 50% better queens. 
Sam comfort talks about this a bit in one of his latest videos, he was seeing even intercast queens at times.. He has switched his recommendation to what people some times call pauper spilts... frame of young brood, frame of food, maby a shake of bees and put on new stand.
As the name indicates many people don't think highly of them, but Sam has been sending queens to the Tarpy lab and they are scoring almost as good as grafted queens. 

With out any sort of proof:lookout:, I suspect part of the problems some TF keepers have is poor queens made with poor methods... 



> Some of these package colonies barely made winter stores, but a few did pretty well, producing 150 to 250 pounds above winter requirements. But one breeder consistently produced queens that developed colonies producing 250 to 450 pounds of honey over winter requirements.
> Madison's Farrar, and other government beemen then spent time visiting and making observations of that particular queen breeder, and methodology developed in his queen-rearing operation. The conclusion was the stock was no better than available anywhere else. That's right! When we reared queens from that stock or from stock obtained from the poorly performing groups, we turned out very high-performance queens. So it wasn't the stock that was good -- it was the queen breeder.


 -Steve Tabor Breeding Super Bees


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## Litsinger

Today's high of 59 degrees F, sunny skies and virtually no wind had bees out in force. I noticed significant pollen being brought back to hive #4 whereas hive #3 was largely at stasis, suggesting that SP's opinion about hive #4 moving up to the top of the stack suggests no brood rearing yet is likely correct, and conversely hive #3 being anchored low in the stack and bringing in significant pollen might suggest they are rearing a little clutch of brood. If I were braver, I would have dug through the stack to confirm. Pollen was mainly orange-yellow but there was quite a bit of deep red (almost maroon) pollen coming in- not sure what that is...


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## squarepeg

Litsinger said:


> ...but there was quite a bit of deep red (almost maroon) pollen coming in- not sure what that is...


probably henbit. i have a little blooming here and there down here.

it was wise that you resisted digging into the hive. if most of the bees were coming home with pollen then you are likely correct about them having a little brood in the works.

i would prefer they didn't. if we get a protracted stretch of cold weather they can become 'stuck' on the brood, use up the stores just around the nest, fail to move on to adjacent stores, and ultimately starve and freeze.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> Sam comfort talks about this a bit in one of his latest videos, he was seeing even intercast queens at times.. He has switched his recommendation to what people some times call pauper spilts... frame of young brood, frame of food, maby a shake of bees and put on new stand.
> As the name indicates many people don't think highly of them, but Sam has been sending queens to the Tarpy lab and they are scoring almost as good as grafted queens.


MSL:

Thank you for sharing the excellent video. It was really enlightening. A few of the points he made that stuck-out to me:

1. A good-quality queen needs to mate with at least 12 drones- optimally 20.

2. That the size of the queen cell itself impacts queen quality (to your point about properly provisioned colonies).

3. That a queenless colony has competing priorities- a high-quality queen versus a queen available sooner.

His discussion regarding queenless colonies often choosing 3-day old larvae to raise queens from was very insightful relative to the dichotomy outlined in item 3 above. Gives one much to think about.

I set-up two nucs this year at the advice of a local beekeeper to have one nuc on-hand for every two production hives (still seems like good advice) utilizing the pauper method you outline above.

My biggest mistake (in my opinion) is that I waited until early July to do so. Based on what I saw this year, seems like I might have had better success starting a month earlier. 

While I am still thinking through next year's priorities relative to nucs, I am inclined to lean more heavily on splits rather than nucs to build the apiary given the ability to supply more resources to the resultant queenless colony.

That said, I am still learning what works and will likely make a bunch more mistakes before I stumble on what is successful here.

Thanks again for the advice- I really appreciate it!

Russ


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> i would prefer they didn't. if we get a protracted stretch of cold weather they can become 'stuck' on the brood, use up the stores just around the nest, fail to move on to adjacent stores, and ultimately starve and freeze.


Thanks for the feedback, Squarepeg. It is interesting to see how these two hives side-by-side with comparable stores are reading the weather so differently. A great real-time example of how survival is a complex, multi-faceted endeavour. I have not seen any henbit, but it is in-fact a prevalent early pollen source around here, so you are likely right on this count too.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> It is interesting to see how these two hives side-by-side with comparable stores are reading the weather so differently.


Wait until you get 10-20 of these puppies.
Better yet from different sources/lineages.

I count 7 different lines on my hands right now. 
3 colonies have been flying two days in a row now (we have a December thaw); 9 colonies stay low.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> 3 colonies have been flying two days in a row now (we have a December thaw); 9 colonies stay low.


GregV:

Thanks for the feedback- that's really interesting. I would have assumed that locally-adapted bees would respond similarly based on the same cues, but the more I read, the more I realize I don't understand much about bee genetics. There is a lot to this stuff!


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## Litsinger

My overarching goals for 2019 follow. I will plan on fleshing-out my thoughts on these concepts this week, and I welcome any constructive criticism or advice- you won't hurt my feelings:

1. At the risk of unfounded optimism, experiment with checkerboarding at least one overwintered hive.

2. Attempt to hive as much local swarm stock as I can secure via swarm traps, alighted swarms and possibly siphoning-off genetic material from established feral colonies.

3. Experiment with the most appropriate means to increase the brood density in 8-frame medium boxes- likely through employing narrow frames.

4. Related to (1) and (3)- consider the dynamics of what makes colonies decide where to begin overwintering in the stack and evaluate the premise that anchoring in the bottom is most-suitable to long-term survivability and productivity in my climate.

5. Begin moving toward a foundationless paradigm as quickly as practical.

6. Related to (5)- evaluate the prospects of implementing a systematic renewal of comb in the stack by possibly moving brood comb up and eventually out.

7. Cautiously consider making a few splits and nucs.

8. A little honey wouldn't hurt.


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## msl

> 2. That the size of the queen cell itself impacts queen quality


no, its the size of the queen that matters... that has to do with how early they are started and how much they are fed..
the queen cell is over sized and dose not restrict queen growth (unlike SC), while bigger cells may be indicative of stronger hives, it says not much about whats inside, good queens can come from average sized cells. Other wise there would be much talked about cull guide lines on all the forums... ie if a cell isn't X long toss it.. but of core if you see a runt cell, toss it 



> My biggest mistake (in my opinion) is that I waited until early July to do so. Based on what I saw this year, seems like I might have had better success starting a month earlier.


my area I need a laying queen 1st week in aug or so... some will make it after that, but sucess drops off. best advice would be to make you cells while the flow is on, if not make sure what ever is build cells has feed... both carbs and protein, same for what is receiving the cells/queens every thing is local


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Thanks for the feedback- that's really interesting. I would have assumed that locally-adapted bees would respond similarly based on the same cues, but the more I read, the more I realize I don't understand much about bee genetics. There is a lot to this stuff!


The two of the flying bees - swarms caught in 2018; pretty sure commercial.
One of the flying bees - chemical-free line queen from a local TF friend (5 years treatment free for him; originating from a random swarm).

Two hives not flying - also swarms caught in 2018; also likely commercial.
Nine hives not flying - two feral, chemical-free lines originating from two feral queens I got from another TF friend in Arkansas.

So, you can see the variety.
If you have the variety, you have chances to stay afloat.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> no, its the size of the queen that matters...


Good point- more important take-away. The comment about the cell size was made near the end of the presentation as almost a parenthetical statement about a Polish (maybe Ukranian) study- I think he was intending to convey that cell size was somewhat a proxy for colony investment in its contents, but I could certainly be mistaken.



> every thing is local


Another important foundational truth- one I keep learning again and again as I explore all the myriad variables of successful beekeeping.

Thank you again for the help and good advice. I really do appreciate it. 

Russ


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> If you have the variety, you have chances to stay afloat.


I am adopting this as my mantra for this year- start with as much local genetic material as I can muster, and if this proves unsuccessful (maybe even if it perchance is successful) begin introducing outside genetics.

Thank you for helping to keep me to keep the main thing the main thing.


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## mischief

Litsinger said:


> Mischief:
> 
> Thank you for your reply. Summer is but a distant memory here. I am glad to hear your season is going well. You mentioned having a view window- are you using a garden-type hive set-up, or do you have standard 10 frame boxes with view windows cut in (or something else)?
> 
> You also mentioned spreading out your frames- are you running extra spacing in both your brood boxes and your honey supers or only in the supers?
> 
> Here's to a healthy and prosperous New Year for you and your family.
> 
> Russ


I have a long hive that fits 30 standard deep frames. this has a long window running the length of the hive. I dont put supers on top of this and couldn't if I wanted to, due to the hinged lid.
The spreading out of the frames in the first year was a stroke of genius,lol, but also a bit of an experiment- is it easier for them to keep on building existing comb? I think it is and handy when you just dont have already built out frames to pop in.

I can do this sort of thing more easily because its a long/chest hive. I'm quite sure it would be almost impossible to do in a standard lang hive and I only do it with the honey frames although I did accidentally have a couple of frames not tight together in the brood area last spring. 
They didn't build those out but did make burr comb, funnily enough, just on the window side, so I got to see them fill them up with pollen, empty them then fill them up with honey, cap them then empty them out again during the summer dearth. 
Because they didnt seem to worried about the gap, I kept them that way until the last inspection before winter, when I cut them off and closed everything up tight.

If anyone else has a peaked hinged lid, they might find it beneficial to leave this open for at least half an hour before doing inspections- this gives the foragers time to figure out what is different and get used to it. You dont have heaps of bees flying around your head like you do if you just go straight on in.


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## Litsinger

mischief said:


> I have a long hive that fits 30 standard deep frames. this has a long window running the length of the hive. I dont put supers on top of this and couldn't if I wanted to, due to the hinged lid.


You actually alluded to a long hive in a previous post- I apologize for not appreciating this point earlier.



> They didn't build those out but did make burr comb, funnily enough, just on the window side, so I got to see them fill them up with pollen, empty them then fill them up with honey, cap them then empty them out again during the summer dearth.


That is a really neat observation, and I am impressed that you had the presence of mind to leave them be until a good opportunity presented itself to fix the issue. I might have been tempted to try to fix it immediately and would have missed out on the observational benefit.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 2. Attempt to hive as much local swarm stock as I can secure via swarm traps, alighted swarms and possibly siphoning-off genetic material from established feral colonies.


I am going to jump-off regarding 2019 goals by addressing the focus on hiving local swarm stock.

Let me begin by saying that I am a steely-eyed realist when it comes to a sustainable Treatment-Free apiary. I am going into this knowing full-well that this effort may end in abysmal failure- I am prepared for that.

That said (and in the event that the project does fail), I do not want it to be for lack of experimenting with all the known avenues that show promise in this area of study.

Along those lines, the most logical first-place to start in my mind is to evaluate local swarm stock for suitability and branch-out from there.

My mind was really opened to this possibility when I read Randy Oliver's 6-part series, "What's Happening to the Bees?". While I cannot completely absorb everything that was said in the treatise, one thing really stood-out- the idea of local adaptability. 

Specifically, Mr. Oliver (quoting Mr. Charles Darwin) gives credence to the idea that, _"With crossed breeds, the act of crossing in itself certainly leads to the recovery of long-lost characters, as well as those derived from either parent form…From what we see of the power and scope of reversion, both in pure races, and when varieties…are crossed, we may infer that characters of almost every kind are capable of reappearing after having been lost for a great length of time."_

"He [Randy quoting Charles Darwin] further noted that the most common form of reversion, '_almost universal with the offspring from a cross, [is to go back] to the characters proper to either pure parent form.'_”

The point Mr. Oliver is making (I think) is that natural cross-breeding seeks to re-activate certain characteristics which might have been previously suppressed via intentional breeding for specific traits (i.e. color, swarming tendency, surplus honey production, docility, etc.).

Mr. Oliver also takes a lot of space in his articles to make the point that, _"To a biologist, it just seems like common sense that a bee stock adapted to the local environment would be expected to survive better with minimal management than would an exotic breed. Think about it—the process of natural selection would have already done most of the work for us."_

My imminently practical anecdote for a bit of optimism is the fact that I am aware of several multi-year survival colonies in the area. In fact, there is a colony living in a 'bee tree' in the alley beside my office that appear to be overwintering successfully thus far (see photos below). While I can in nowise project this success in a managed apiary, the fact that there are successful non-managed colonies in the area gives one some reason to hope. 















With this framework in mind, my thoughts immediately go to hiving as much local swarm stock as possible and setting the first primary goal for this proof-of-concept on survival. In other words, any swarm will be welcome in my apiary and their only requirement for continued existence in my yard is survival.

Obviously, this is an oversimplification of all the myriad factors at-play but it seems to me that the unavoidable reality is thus- one cannot select for specific traits from dead bees. 

So at the risk of repeating myself, the primary goal would be live multi-year bee colonies without treatments as the first (and only) initial measure of incremental success. All other goals are subservient to this.

I'll follow-up later with a few thoughts about how I hope to procure local swarm stock.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> .... the most logical first-place to start in my mind is to evaluate local swarm stock for suitability and branch-out from there.....


Let us revisit this for a moment - the "local stock" thing. 

I am going to say a heresy now - there are pretty much *no *local stocks in the North America.

We are in very early stages of a process where some sort of local adaptations occur. 
Maybe.
Unfortunately, the current status of cross-county bee moving and selling is really screwing up chances for the US local bees to develop.

The process of local stock formation very similar to the North America took place very recently - just look at the Russian Far East.
The same model took place - 1)random importation of various bee races and 2)enough time was allowed for those imports to cross-breed and adapt to the local conditions. 

Two general sub-populations of those Russain Far Eastern bees formed - the northern (dark) and the southern (yellow).
This took about 100-200 years to develop after the initial imports were done and new sustainable populations established.
OK - those we can call "Russian Far East" local stocks (some sold in the USA too).

I am yet to see "Wisconsin bee" or "Kentucky bee" or "Alabama bee".
To compare - there is still such a thing as "Grey Caucasian bee". 
Now that is some local stock there, up in those remote valleys.
But I never heard of "Alabama bees" just yet - those would constitute some sort of distinct, truly established local stock.

For now we don't really have local stocks as we don't really have any idea of local bee population status or any control of the bee movements in or out of any locale.

OK, someone will say - but look at the SP's bees! 
Those are "local stock".
Well, I am going to say this: who will guaranty if some John Doe will not setup his nomadic, commercial bee yard brought from California almonds just a mile away from SP's bee yard?
There is no such guaranty - thus making any forming "local stock" very fragile at any place and time, as I see it.
That is some shame.

PS: 
our local bee seller is taking orders for 2019 - she will be bringing package bees from California almonds (just like she always does, year after year); 
impossibility of any local bee to develop under such external pressure is pretty obvious (in my particular locale).


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## Litsinger

My swarm hiving strategy for this year follows. Goal is to successfully hive at least four swarms.

Material On Hand- Fourteen traps consisting of:

1. Ten new bottom boards and covers and twenty 8-frame medium boxes and frames.

2. Two old 10-frame deep supers and misc lumber.

3. Two existing swarm traps. 

Placement Strategy

1. One here at the office- approximately 10 miles from home.

2. One on my wife's uncle's farm- approximately 10 miles from home.

3. One on my dad's farm- approximately 20 miles from home.

4. One on my brother's farm- approximately 30 miles from home.

5. The remaining ten I will likely spread-out on our farm unless I can talk some friends in the area into letting me set traps at their place.

Construction

My existing swarm traps are constructed out of two stacked 10-frame medium supers, generally following the advice of Dr. Tom Seeley. Utilizing this same model, I will plan on traps made out of new equipment to be comprised of two stacked 8-frame medium supers, baited with a single drawn comb from this year's dead-outs, the remaining frames being set-up for foundationless with an application of QMP and lemongrass oil applied. I will plan to drill a single 1" diameter hole in the side of both 10-frame deep supers and attach plywood on the top and bottom of both boxes, loading both of them up in similar fashion to the new equipment.

Timing

Last year, I put the two bait hives out in late April and caught a swarm in each by early May. In retrospect, these should have been out much sooner, at least based on feedback from the Kentucky State Beekeeping Association. Per the past two statewide surveys (linked below), beekeepers in Kentucky have reported hiving swarms starting in early March. As such, I intend to have all traps out by mid-February.

http://www.ksbabeekeeping.org/results-of-first-swarms-in-2018-survey/
http://www.ksbabeekeeping.org/survey-results-on-first-swarms-of-2017/

Wildcards

1. One of my work clients is the Kentucky State Department of Transportation. In the course of discussion, they have told me about a hive that has continuously occupied the historic Whitehaven property (https://www.kentuckytourism.com/whitehaven-welcome-center/) for at least ten years. Supposedly, they have tried every way in the world to eliminate this colony (poisoning, trapping-out, blocking their entrance, etc.) to no avail. Based on their will to live and the fact that they are hived very high up in an area that does not impact visitors, they have elected to let them continue unmolested. Apparently this hive casts a swarm every year that alights in one of the adjacent landscape trees. My colleagues have assured me that they will call me if a swarm is cast, and I will plan on having a box in my car.

2. One of my other clients is Murray State University (http://murraystate.edu/). The facilities management guys have told me that swarms are a big issue on campus in the spring and that they will call me when they are reported. They also offered to let me do some cut-outs for them, but I told them I'd have to get a lot more experience before I am ready to take that plunge.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Let us revisit this for a moment - the "local stock" thing.


GregV: Thank you for your detailed and sober assessment- in short I do not disagree with any of your observations. Anecdotally, I expect that isolation (in whatever form it takes) definitely gives much of our unmanaged stock a fighting chance. One thing working for us in Kentucky specifically is that we are not a big horticultural producer, which I think lessens some (but not all) of the migratory bee pressure in our region. It also means that managed hive densities are generally lower here than they are in areas that depend upon pollination for their industry. 

That said, there are plenty of reasons to be pessimistic. There is a fairly large commercial producer about 30 miles to the South of me who told me he was treatment-free for 7 years. Ultimately, he gave it up because his losses became too large for him to sustain financially. I do not in any way fault him for beginning to treat, and I have learned quite a lot from him. I will save it for another post, but based on my discussions with him, here are two take-aways I had which are germane to our current discussion:

1. Beekeeping is a hobby for me- I can sustain high losses in perpetuity as long as my interest and patience hold-out. 

2. There's something to be said for natural selection- His troubles grew as he sought to make queens and packages for his retail enterprise. It made me think, "Can I select better than Mother Nature for survival?"

This is what has prompted me to focus strictly on survival, and to lean-on swarms (rather than splits) to attempt to grow the apiary (at least initially).

Please feel welcome to continue to poke holes in my logic- I appreciate it!

Russ


----------



## msl

plenty of DNA studys to show ferals are independent of imported commercial bees. 

rember local adaption means the stock does better in its native environment then any were elce... but that dosn't mean stock form some were elce could do better then the adapted stock....
AHB displacing the EHB ferals come to mind...

on that note, give this a read https://www.researchgate.net/public...ral_Honey_Bees_Apis_mellifera_L_from_Utah_USA


> two (A4a’ and A4’’) are unique to Utah when compared to the rest of the United States





> given the high diversity of mtDNA haplotypes observed among feral honey bees in Utah, this gives evidence that these feral honey bees were *not exposed to Varroa mites*





> from our samples for our study, usually consisting of 20-40 worker honey bees, we have not observed any Varroa mites. This sample size was not ideal for Varroa mite surveillance, but it does provide evidence of a lack of exposure to Varroa mites in these populations


and the real kicker...


> samples collected in our study from Utah, which were found at elevations as high as 1357 m, are not A. m. scutellata, but a different A lineage subspecies. This could provide evidence that some of the A lineage honey bees from Utah, are not A. m. scutellata that entered the United States in 1990 from Brazil (Sugden & Williams, 1990), and were introduced to Utah before 1990


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> on that note, give this a read https://www.researchgate.net/public...ral_Honey_Bees_Apis_mellifera_L_from_Utah_USA


MSL:

Thank you for the research link! I will look forward to reading this article tonight. Based on your feedback, it sounds as if the research seeks to corroborate what Dr. Seeley discovered with the ferals in the Arnot forest?

This whole subject fascinates me- you keep digging and there is a seemingly inexhaustible supply of new treasures beneath...


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> plenty of DNA studys to show ferals are independent of imported commercial bees. ..


So....
Are we going to hear of localized and distinct "Utah highland bees" anytime soon?

I doubt it.
See what I mean?


----------



## msl

> we going to hear of localized and distinct "Utah highland bees" anytime soon?


LOL, You just did


> two (A4a’ and A4’’) are *unique to Utah* when compared to the rest of the United States


To your point- Yes most of us would be better off if those around us learned how to keep there bees alive and to make there own replacements, or bought them locally form some one who dose. Stoping the influx of sun belt genetics bred for almonds and the assorted pathogens

however the real change would come if instead of dinking around and trying to "grow your own" people got serious about paying $10 or so more for a queen and demanding resistant stock from breeders and package producers.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> LOL, You just did...


Well then!
I want a couple of those queens!
Where do I order?

Exactly.


> got serious about paying $10 or so more for a queen and demanding resistant stock from breeders and package producers.


So, yes, gimmy some "Utah queens"!


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Well then!
> I want a couple of those queens!
> Where do I order?
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> So, yes, gimmy some "Utah queens"!


On a second thought, I don't want "Utah queens".
Because they were


> *not *exposed to Varroa mites


 (if I understand this right).
They will probably just drop off just as quickly as any "almond bees".

I want bees that *were *exposed to Varroa mites. 
And still are alive afterwards.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I will look forward to reading this article tonight


Wow! There is a lot of interesting observations contained in this paper. Two things stood out:

1. That it is likely that A lineage stock was brought into the US prior to 1922. So this means there were no-doubt F1 "killer bees" around way before 1990?

2. I am WAY out of my depth, but I fail to understand the link between the high mtDNA diversity found in Utah and an assumption that the ferals in question have not been exposed to Varroa. I recognize that Dr. Seeley's Arnot Forest study refers to a "genetic bottleneck", but should it be assumed that this same dynamic has occurred in a materially-identical fashion across the entire nation? Maybe so, but seems to undercut Mr. Oliver's assertion of random variation- do all haplotypes perform equally well (or poorly) in the face of varroa pressure regardless of all other environmental pressures? Seems unlikely based on my very limited exposure to this topic.

Very engaging study- thank you to MSL and GregV for the spirited discussion- I appreciate the opportunity to engage in the learning.

Russ


----------



## squarepeg

GregV said:


> Well, I am going to say this: who will guaranty if some John Doe will not setup his nomadic, commercial bee yard brought from California almonds just a mile away from SP's bee yard? There is no such guaranty - thus making any forming "local stock" very fragile at any place and time, as I see it.


actually our state law 'guarantees' it greg.

http://agi.alabama.gov/divisions/plant-health/apiary-protection-unit/alabama-apiary-laws

it is generally referred to as the 'comb law', and in a nutshell that law makes it illegal to move hives into my state unless they are inspected and certified first. even then hived bees are generally not allowed into the state except for passing through and/or for very limited time frames.

i know for a fact that there are no large commercial operators in the county i reside in nor in any of the surrounding counties.

the local strain here is a hybridized conglomeration of all sorts of bees that have been brought in over the decades from who knows where. the swarms from these bees have taken up residence in the large expanses of wooded lands here.

over time natural selection has played out, and it's not a stretch to say that what we have here is a locally adapted strain of highly hybridized survivor mutts.

these are the bees from which my stock is derived from. these are the bees that contribute drones when i have queens mating. i believe this will turn out to be one of the primary reasons why i am having success managing off treatments.


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## gww

The swarms I have caught may well be from package bees. I don't know of any commercials around me. From the bee club meetings (very small club and I seldom attend) most around here get packages and nucs when getting their first bees. The nucs and such may be from keepers in this state or surrounding state but not with in 50 miles of me. From those meetings, the new guys lose lots of their first hives. I do have a neighbor (couple of miles) that lost his first two or three hives. I know another guy in a ten mile that lost his first four. I here at the club of several losing hives. They guy I got mine from had like five and lost two (he is a non treater) but the three left made 400 lbs of honey.

So I believe the majority of bee keepers around me are getting packages but also that I live in the country and so two mile from me will not have many other beekeepers. I have caught my swarms in about a 20/30 mile circle.

I am not a social person and so do not get the deep story of why the hive dies. I just hear the numbers. My closest neighbor just put them in a box but did not have time to work them. So, every year that I have nothing die, I am amazed and every time I hear that all of theirs did die, I am amazed. I have nothing that I can attribute to what is going on and all I know is what I personally have did to keep bees. Except for maybe throwing a gal on a swarm when I catch one and just looking inside the hives alot and getting lucky and catching swarms when my hives throw them and a few splits trying to stop those swarms, I mostly just look and try and learn what I am seeing and trying to learn my flows.

I know I am solid bottom with a slatted rack and no ventilation on top except for poor craftsmenship on my box building and some new entrances in the corners where the boxes either warped or the bees chewed through a weak spot.

I don't know how they are killing their bees or why mine are living. I don't know if I caught feral swarms or something that left somebodies box.

I don't know how many of them treat or don't but know there is a little of both in the few I do know about. I know there are a few in the club that are keeping more hives than me and must be having some kind of success but I have not questioned them on their tactics.

I really have very little clue of my own bees except what I have done so far. I can not see into the future but have high hopes based on the past but know that the future could prove me wrong.

It would break my heart to lose a bunch of bees but I only know one way to find out and that is to just do it and watch and try and learn more as time goes on.

I expect to lose some bees someday and if it does not decimate me, I am like greg in that I will find a way to use what the dead outs give me so that it is still not a loss. Right now, I just can not seem to get ahead of the bees with enough comb to ever give them drawn supers to see what they could really do if given the chance.

The genetics of my area has to be impacted by commercial bees cause that is what every one gets but is spread out and does not have commercial operators or migratory bee keepers that I know about.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> actually our state law 'guarantees' it


Thanks for the information, SP. It prompted me to see what exactly the current Kentucky Revised Statutes dictate relative to beekeeping. In short- very little:

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/chapter.aspx?id=38465


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> It would break my heart to lose a bunch of bees but I only know one way to find out and that is to just do it and watch and try and learn more as time goes on


GWW:

GREAT post! Thank you for all the context and information you shared. That is one thing I have really enjoyed about my association with all of you here on Beesource- we may all have different opinions/approaches to the problems at-hand, but we all have a common goal of finding the best way to keep bees in our area in a way that works for us- and to learn a lot along the way. I really enjoy everyone's perspectives and feel my beekeeping is really improving as a result of all the great advice I receive from all quarters.

Glad you contributed to the discussion- please feel most welcome to share anytime.

Russ


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## gww

The funny thing about laws is that they only mean anything if somebody enforces them. I am not sure about Missouri's laws but do not think that I would try and stop somebody that moved on their own land and got bees. I would just try and learn what it caused to my bees and adjust to the situation. We get mostly packages sent out for sell and it may be due to comb laws but I doubt anyone is looking at those that live on the state line and go back and forth unless they are giant operators that just due to being so big bring onlookers to themselves.

The few wars that I have heard about when dealing with operations that get too close to each other never seem to have a clear winner and so in the end, figuring out how to take care of what you have under whatever the situation is seems to be the best way to out compete and win in the end.

Even though I could see others maybe hurting what I am doing, I don't really appreciate too much regulation and like living where there is no registration other hoops to jump through. 

I like knowing what the laws are so I might not violate them but am glad that they don't make too many of them here. 

Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I like knowing what the laws are so I might not violate them but am glad that they don't make too many of them here.


Good points, GWW. Waxing philosophical for a moment, I like you am a proponent of self-governance and in living by The Golden Rule... wouldn't life be so much easier if everyone consistently lived by both of these precepts...


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## gww

Russ
I had a favorite uncle named Russ.

I am a little too selfish for my own good but I like the "ideal" of the golden rule.
Cheers
gww


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## GregB

squarepeg said:


> actually our state law 'guarantees' it greg.
> 
> ......... and it's not a stretch to say that what we have here is a locally adapted strain of highly hybridized survivor mutts.
> 
> .


You are in luck, SP.
Sounds as if AL maybe the only state that protects the locals.
IF moving bees around is actually limited and such rules are in force, the story of the Russian Far East very well could repeat itself.
The Russian bees can not be "russian" outside of Russia (because they can not bring along the Far Eastern environment that shaped them).
However, the Alabama bees very well could develop into a distinct, localized, sustainable race.

Nationwide though it is total anarchy as it sounds.

Well then, I may wanna get some of those "Alabama bees" for testing out in WI.
Put me on the list.


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## msl

> Wow! There is a lot of interesting observations contained in this paper. Two things stood out:


#1


> Lusby claims she has federal documents proving that Africanized bees were brought to the U.S. in 1935, and again in 1959, and dispersed into the breeding programs of professional beekeepers all over the country.


https://beesource.com/point-of-view...ome-beekeepers-believe-killer-bees-are-fraud/



> In the early 1960’s Steve Taber, then of the Apiculture Research Branch of the USDA at Baton Rouge, La., imported and expermented with semen of the African bee, which was sent to him by Dr. Kerr from Brazil. In a personal communication from Taber to me he states, “The African bee semen sent me by W. Kerr was used to successfully inseminate queens; their daughter queens that were 50% African were then inseminated. Two more generations of impotation and insemination made the African parentage at Baton Rouge over 90% African.


https://beesource.com/point-of-view/africanized-honey-bees/the-african-brazilian-bee-problem/

some were or another you can run down some of the USDA docs on it.... they were here, they did send some around for testing, for what ever reason it seems they didn't gain a foot hold.. but I didn't see the conspiracy theory of wide spreed introduction, and the DNA studys don't back it either.
maby the UT bees are a remantaint of the USDA... maby they are just someing that got imported in a mixed shipment ... there are a lot of odd ball bees still out there... Ie the Egyptian ones the study found in UT 

#2 adaption to mites creates a gentnic change in the population, ie the "weak" gentnics die off, so the populations gentnic make up are changed
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms8991

edit here is Dee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTrmMtGve-M @46:10


and one of the few non pay wall references to tabers work
_Africanized bee sperm from Brazil was introduced to Louisiana in 1960 and 1961, and through four generations of backcrossing, Africanized stock was maintained in the field for years (Taber 1961, 1977). Despite these opportunities for population expansion, such introductions did not noticeably modify the behavioral or genetic characteristics of the local European honey bee population. African germplasm has not been discovered in the U.S. or Europe in the few genetic
studies performed recently using isozymes (Sheppard & Berlocher 1985, Sheppard & McPheron 1986, Sheppard 1988), and mtDNA and nuclear DNA restriction patterns (Smith et al.1989, Hall & Muralidharan 1989, Hall 1990). This absence of African influence contrasts markedly with the genetic takeover documented in Brazil in the 1960s, after the 1956 introduction of bees from South Africa."_ 
https://digitalcommons.lsu.edu/cgi/...=1&article=6281&context=gradschool_disstheses


----------



## AHudd

Actually, in Arkansas we are also somewhat protected. 

We are required to register our apiaries. No one can drop colonies within 2 miles of a registered apiary without the owners permission, unless that person is the owner of the hives and the property and they get registered and inspected.

Alex


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I am a little too selfish for my own good but I like the "ideal" of the golden rule.


If we're honest with ourselves, I expect most of us can identify with this. Off my soapbox now...


----------



## Litsinger

AHudd said:


> Actually, in Arkansas we are also somewhat protected.


Interesting intel, Alex. Thank you for sharing. So even though you, GWW and I are linked by state borders- KY with MO and MO with AR, it appears we have rather different requirements (or lack thereof) regarding apiaries.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> there are a lot of odd ball bees still out there... Ie the Egyptian ones the study found in UT


As the study concludes, "This [resultant genetic information] could provide evidence that some of the A. Lineage honey bees from Utah, are not A.m. scutellata..."

Fascinating stuff- seems to suggest there is so much yet to be known.

Thanks again for sharing. I do appreciate it. 

Russ


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## mischief

Me too...loving it.


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## Litsinger

Mischief:

Really glad you are contributing to the discussion- I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


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## clong

squarepeg said:


> probably henbit. i have a little blooming here and there down here.
> i would prefer they didn't. if we get a protracted stretch of cold weather they can become 'stuck' on the brood, use up the stores just around the nest, fail to move on to adjacent stores, and ultimately starve and freeze.


This is where insulated hives may make a difference. With a deep freeze, or a smaller cluster, bees in a well-insulated hive can move to their stores more readily. I read somewhere that bees won't move the cluster until the comb is over 45F. Does anyone know if this is correct?


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> I read somewhere that bees won't move the cluster until the comb is over 45F. Does anyone know if this is correct?


Great question, clong. I'll be interested in people's thoughts on this question too. Certainly seems reasonable that your efforts to insulate your hives might make an appreciable difference in this regard.


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## clong

Litsinger said:


> Placement Strategy
> 
> 1. One here at the office- approximately 10 miles from home.


Russ,

If the hive at your office doesn't throw a swarm, you might be able to acquire their genetics by attaching a trap to the tree, and inducing the queen to come out and lay in it. I have never tried it, but if I ever find an accessible bee tree I intend to give it a go. One thing is for sure, I would never want to trapout a hive in a tree, unless I knew that it had to be cut down.

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?270431-Cleo-Hogan-trapout-from-a-tree

Cleo Hogan Jr has a nice pdf on how to do this.


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> Cleo Hogan Jr has a nice pdf on how to do this.


clong- you read my mind! I actually e-mailed Mr. Hogan this morning and asked him for advice on securing some genetics from this hive exactly as you suggested. He and I communicated this summer, and being a fellow Kentucky guy, I knew he must be alright .

I'm with you on preserving the existing colony- my hope would be to utilize an existing 10-frame medium box I have, fill it with drawn comb and let them properly provision it early in the Spring, trying to time my removal such that there are stores, pollen and fresh eggs in the box and hopefully no queen.

Then, just bring it back to the house, let them make a new queen, and I'm off to the races (sounds real easy as I type it, but I know better...)

Great suggestion- thanks for the advice.

Russ


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## gww

Russ


> Great question, clong. I'll be interested in people's thoughts on this question too. Certainly seems reasonable that your efforts to insulate your hives might make an appreciable difference in this regard.​
> 
> 
> *​*


I have an opinion but what I write should be taken as uninformed opinion so that no one gets hurt following it.

Abby warre, who lived in a warmer climate then me believed that thin wall was better due to being more responsive to the outside temp. It would warm quicker during the day but cool quicker also. He was big on how much stores the bees used during winter and wanted to keep them as low as possible. He also wanted smaller entrances and to provide air but not too much.

I read a study that I could not find now and if I read it right, it was comparing 2 inch wood to 1 inch wood. I thought it was saying that there was more disease in the thicker walled hives. 

I have settled on solid bottom, thin wall, no wrap and two inch insulation on the top of the hive. My thoughts in this are that the colder sides of the hive are where condensation would happen and it would hopefully be dryer above the cluster. I keep hearing the cold is not what kills the bees but more it is the water that might drip on them. 

So, if combs need to be 45 degrees for the cluster to use the stores in them, it makes a certain sense to me that thin walls allowing they sun to make it more responsive to warming up inside the hive would allow the cluster to move to food sources. I do think having a bit of a wind block to the north would be a good thing. 

None of this makes me right on any of this, it is just stuff that I used to try and come up with what I would do until I found it did not work. Last year was not the super low temps that I have seen but was colder with fewer flying days during winter and it worked for me. 

I have also seen studies where they put bees in super cold situations to see how long they lived. Bees do pretty good. I am not like member MLS who can find back all the things he reads. I read and try to remember but the actual studies get lost never to be found again by me. 
I try and remember correctly but may not even be able to read what is actually being said. So take what I wrote here with that in mind.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Abby warre, who lived in a warmer climate then me believed that thin wall was better due to being more responsive to the outside temp. It would warm quicker during the day but cool quicker also. He was big on how much stores the bees used during winter and wanted to keep them as low as possible. He also wanted smaller entrances and to provide air but not too much.


GWW:

Thank you for your response- funny you should make this point, clong, GregV and I were just discussing this same thing last week:

https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...eatment-Free-Experience&p=1684729#post1684729


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## gww

Russ
Now that you bring it up, I remember reading that as it was written.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 1. At the risk of unfounded optimism, experiment with checkerboarding at least one overwintered hive.


I am going to gladly reveal my ignorance on this topic, in hopes that the many sage beekeepers who frequent this forum will steer my aright on this subject- namely, the idea of backfilling the honey dome. 

For background, Mr. Walt Wright's foundational principle (as I understand it) relative to Checkerboarding is that a colonies' first priority after successfully overwintering is to replenish their critical reserve stores (if necessary) to best position them for continued survival.

Their second priority is to begin backfilling the top of their volume in preparations to cast a reproductive swarm.

Taking these two hypotheses as fact, it makes me wonder about the relative effectiveness (or maybe more accurately the need) to Checkerboard as a swarm mitigation strategy based on where in their volume a colony decides to overwinter. There is so much I do not understand about how or why a colony decides to set-up shop in a specific location within their volume for the winter, but as a practical matter I see the "Tale of Two Cities" emerging with the two hives I have left at present. 

Specifically, one appears to be clustered in the 2nd of 5 medium 8-frame boxes. Assuming they prevail this winter, the idea of Checkerboarding becomes textbook, whereby you dig down through the stack until you find the top of the cluster, and you alternate stores and empty drawn comb above that. In theory, they will now have loads of room for the brood nest to expand upward, and will have a devil of a time backfilling this same area before Reproductive Cut-Off, thus mitigating swarm propagation. 

Alternatively, the other colony seems to have contented itself with setting-up in the very top of the stack. As they eat through stores this winter, they have nowhere to go but down (o.k. left and right too, but you get my point). Should they be left to their own devices, will they simply backfill the area emptied by their Winter consumption, cast a swarm and fail to move down?

Obviously one can (and maybe should) move the cluster down in the stack to get them set-up for Checkerboarding above, but the concept intrigues me. If (and this is a big if) the colony clustered at the top survives and is left to their own devices this spring, what does the hive cross-section look like when backfilling begins?


----------



## squarepeg

GregV said:


> Put me on the list.


but that gets us back to the valid part of the point you were making greg.

there's no guaranty that our local strain will perform in a similar manner at your location.

even worse, after a generation or two the bees will have pretty much reverted back to whatever it is that you have around up there.

my guess is you will get more bang for you buck if you can locate and trap out or collect swarms from any unmanaged colonies you might have lurking around.

short of that propagate like crazy from the best you guys come up with and do what you can to influence the gene pool, (which is what i believe you have said you're trying to do).


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## GregB

squarepeg said:


> but that gets us back to the valid part of the point you were making greg.
> 
> there's no guaranty that our local strain will perform in a similar manner at your location....


Ah!
But you know what, so far I am liking the "Arkansas bees" that go into the second winter for me.
With bees it is all about inputs into the melting pot.
Bees are all about melting pot (if given a chance).

Any good inputs should improve chances for fine outputs under the circumstances.
I am all about variety placed into a set of circumstances.

But here, let me state another point.
As the USA is basically much larger case of the same old Russian Far East, the current location of population does not matter much (unlike in the traditional Old World places where the historic locations still matter).

You see, in the Old World, the traditional AMMs will never be placed in Italy or North Africa. 
Such migrations are impossible due to administrative and traditional obstacles.

In the USA, to compare, bee migrations have no rhyme or reason. 
Warm climate Italians are shipped to Alaska (terrible fit).
The Russains are placed into study in subtropics where they just do not belong.
AMMs should never exist in the subtropical locations.
The AHB should never exist up North (but I am pretty darn sure, there is some generic presence of AHBs here too - thanks to the bee package shipping).

In many ways, this is a huge mess.
However, all this illogical mess actually forces adaptation and produces strange results (some bad and some good).

With that - your "Alabama bee" can totally produce unexpected results in WI.
It may croak OR it may actually flourish OR anything in between.
They just as well have enough "Russian" blood in them that will only benefit from colder climate placement.
In addition, their inputs into the melting pot should have some effect as well.

Only live testing will show.
Theoretical are pretty much meaningless.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 3. Experiment with the most appropriate means to increase the brood density in 8-frame medium boxes- likely through employing narrow frames.


This evening, I took a stab at this concept, following the general principles laid-out so well (as always) by Mr. Michael Bush:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm

Practically speaking, I followed TheOhioCountyBoy's video instructions here:

https://youtu.be/rca3V7WOfLk

With the Hoffman frames I have, the resultant product were top-bars and the lower-half of the end-bars having a frame-to-frame spacing of 3/16". My initial concern is that this might induce propolizing between the end-bars, so I've posed that question on a narrow-frame thread here on Beesource. It might require shaving the lower edges down too to maintain a gap of at least 1/4"

Otherwise, the distance between the last end-bar on either side and the corresponding wall is approximately 5/16".

I'll save any extended thoughts about why I am considering narrow frames for a later post, but succinctly the hope is that it will afford higher brood densities per box, helping to accelerate early-season build-up and mitigate a colony's thrust to "climb the ladder" within an all-medium set-up. May not make a hill of beans difference, but it seemed there is little downside to this approach- at least from a brood-production standpoint.


----------



## crofter

I bought half a dozen nucs about 6 years ago that had frames with shaved shoulders that resulted in similar spacing to what your picture shows. I have found that the space between top bars gets to be more than 50% filled with webbed bridge comb. Not solidly filled but enough so that dropping a frame back in or sliding one up against another results in a lot of bee crushing. I did not pay attention to what was happening between lower ends of the sidebars. I no longer space them up tight.

I made up some frames that will space 1 1/4" but the top bars are proportionately narrower as well so between top bars space still respects standard bee space. Top bar bridging is not a problem with them.

Your local conglomeration of bee type may be more or less inclined to use bridge comb and propolis so your experience may be different. I would suggest you do not alter hundreds of your frames till you live with the results for a while. Many people deliberately run 9 frames in 10 frame boxes and trade ease of working for the possible advantages you are seeking.

You appear to have a quite objective appraisal of results and not too likely to get sidetracked by confirmation bias. I am interested in seeing whether you find net advantage from narrow frame spacing.


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## Litsinger

crofter said:


> I would suggest you do not alter hundreds of your frames till you live with the results for a while. Many people deliberately run 9 frames in 10 frame boxes and trade ease of working for the possible advantages you are seeking.


Frank:

Thank you very much for sharing your experience (and admonition) with this set-up. I sincerely appreciate it. The advice from sage beekeepers like yourself is definitely helping to inform my opinions and approaches going forward.

In addition, your advice to "dip my toes in" is very wise- In consideration of your thoughts, I am going to be rather circumspect about trying this approach and let the results guide future decisions.

Thank you again for sharing your experience- I am grateful.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 5. Begin moving toward a foundationless paradigm as quickly as practical.


Based on my quite limited experience, I was pleasantly surprised at how well foundationless frames can get drawn-out and used when placed in the right location (within the broodnest) and at the right time (prior to the Summer Solstice). Thinking back, it makes sense that a colony can and will do a fine job of making foundationless comb when not negatively influenced by a bungling bee wrangler (namely me)- they are after all comb building experts. 

The two photos below are just such an example- the first being a beautiful frame of mostly drone comb (subsequently backfilled and capped) that was drawn out in the Spring after I stole a brood frame on foundation from one hive to help-out another, replacing it with an empty foundationless frame. The second photo is a foundationless frame I put in a 5-frame nuc made in early July- bad idea all the way around. The empty area is where the bees simply fattened up the adjacent frame and allowed it to pass right through the void in the foundationless frame.















Ultimately, it seems to me that goals 3 - 6 (as previously outlined in Post #85) are quite interrelated, and I am interested in exploring this dynamic further:

#3- Narrow Frames
#4- Hive Cluster Dynamics
#5- Foundationless
#6- Systematic Comb Renewal

I'll plan on tackling Goal #6 in the next post, trying to distill some general thoughts about how these goals might tie together... or might turn into a real hot mess. :s

As always, I welcome constructive criticism and/or lessons from the, "been there, done that and got the tee-shirt" crowd.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 6. Related to (5)- evaluate the prospects of implementing a systematic renewal of comb in the stack by possibly moving brood comb up and eventually out.


I will apologize in advance for this verbose post, but I want to take the time to outline my thoughts at present concerning this idea and how it might relate to the following previously outlined goals:

#3- Narrow Frames
#4- Hive Cluster Dynamics
#5- Foundationless
#6- Systematic Comb Renewal

I'll start by reiterating that I recognized this year that I did not take fullest-advantage of having the same sized box for both brood boxes and supers. When running an unlimited broodnest, you come to realize that the terms "brood box" and "super" become conventions based on colony need and the beekeeper's objectives rather than fixed entities with dedicated (and exclusive) purposes. 

That said, what might one be able to accomplish with interchangeable boxes? There are several possibilities as I see it, but the one that seemed most appealing to me was the convention of systematic comb renewal and the idea of "management by box". 

While I do not have enough experience to say whether old comb or new comb in the brood nest is better, the idea of having and option to rotate it out every few years seems like an appealing feature. For Warre proponents, this seems to be one of the tenants of his "Beekeeping for All".

As I researched this further, I discovered that Mr. Tim Rowe in Cork, Ireland has taken this idea and adapted it, employing a modified National box to a common size for both brood boxes and supers, calling it an "OSB" or One-Sized-Box:

http://www.rosebeehives.com/uploads/2/3/9/3/2393505/slide_show.pdf

https://youtu.be/dMcBiCcuC8w

The gist is as follows:

1. An early-season manipulation puts the brood cluster at the bottom of the stack.

2. Once the brood is expanded into two (or more) boxes, additional boxes with new wax foundation or foundationless are added just above the bottom box and the process is repeated until the Summer Solstice.

3. Following, boxes are added immediately above the active broodnest as required for drawing-out and subsequent backfilling.

While I can't say with any certitude if this will be an appropriate management strategy in my specific area, I consider that it *might* help support the other goals as follows:

#3- Narrow Frames- introducing boxes into the middle of the broodnest might support getting brood-oriented comb drawn out in a priority fashion. It might alternately hasten their abandonment of the bottom box.

#4- Hive Cluster Dynamics- adding boxes in the middle of the broodnest might seek to stifle a colonies' push to set-up shop above the bottom couple of boxes in a higher volume set-up. Alternately, it might effectively cut-off the bottom reaches of the hive.

#5- Foundationless- See Item #3 above. The theory is that the bees can draw out the frames in a manner most-appropriate to their brood (or storage) needs. Downside might be poorly-drawn comb that is not easily seen due to being low(er) in the stack.

#6- Systematic Comb Renewal- It stands to reason that by introducing new volume below, boxes that move up will ultimately become strictly capped stores and will be ready for processing. Alternately, the colony might be hesitant to draw out any comb after the Solstice, so one will suffer a serious loss of surplus stores potential.

Other objections:

1. Adding volume in the middle of the broodnest disrupts the integrity of the nest, sets-back buildup and runs the risk of chilled brood early in the season.

2. Capped honey will be in frames previously occupied by brood /pollen.

3. It is more work to add boxes to the bottom of the stack versus the top.

4. You will suffer a surplus penalty by requiring significant new comb to be drawn each year.

5. The additional volume near the bottom invites the risk of additional SHB pressure.

Finally, I asked Tim if he ever tried adding boxes to the very bottom of the stack in true nadiring fashion and he replied, "Yes, I have tried adding boxes to the bottom of the stack – but with very little success. The bees do build downwards, of course, but no where near as quickly or successfully as when they’re filling in the gap."

I am still wrestling with this concept, but do find some merit in the prospect of using a single box size to its advantage in regards to interchangability.

I will wrap-up the 2019 goals discussion tomorrow with some plans/thoughts about nucs/splits and "locally adapted" genetics in general. 

As always, I welcome any input.


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## couesbro

2. Once the brood is expanded into two (or more) boxes, additional boxes with new wax foundation or foundationless are added just above the bottom box and the process is repeated until the Summer Solstice.

If I understand this correctly, once you have two brood boxes you are splitting them by putting a new box of foundation only between the 2 brood boxes? Do you think the queen will cross the undrawn foundation to expand the brood nest or will she stay in which ever brood box she is in when the boxes are separated? What are your plans for when which ever brood box perceives they are queenless and begin building queen cells?


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## Litsinger

couesbro said:


> If I understand this correctly, once you have two brood boxes you are splitting them by putting a new box of foundation only between the 2 brood boxes? Do you think the queen will cross the undrawn foundation to expand the brood nest or will she stay in which ever brood box she is in when the boxes are separated? What are your plans for when which ever brood box perceives they are queenless and begin building queen cells?


couesbro- 

Great reply. I appreciate your feedback and insightful questions. The reality is, I don't have a satisfactory response for either, so I need to add your questions to the "objections" list.

In reading through Mr. Walt Wright's treatises, he stresses time and again that one should not disturb the integrity of the broodnest. As such, I am loathe to do so as well.

I may experiment with simply adding an empty box to the very bottom of the stack and see if they are interested in drawing it out- possibly "pyramiding down" a few frames when temperatures will allow.

At least this way I will not be bisecting the broodnest and will at least (in theory) be taking a small step toward systematic comb renewal.

Thank you again for the great response. Please always feel welcome to share your thoughts, and Merry Christmas to you and your family. 

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I ... e-mailed Mr. Hogan this morning and asked him for advice on securing some genetics from this hive...


I heard back from Mr. Hogan and thought I would share his feedback:

_"The transition can be any size, and made of anything that will allow you to mate the trap with the tree. Pipes, hoses, or wooden tunnels all work
well. Yes, the drawn comb will give the queen additional space to lay in during the rapid buildup of the colony in early Spring. Once eggs are detected in the trap, you can remove trap, or, just remove frames of bees and leave trap in place. If you want additional starts from the tree, make sure you do not relocate the queen with the trap or frames of bees. If you do, the feral colony will likely die due to no viable eggs left in the tree for them to make a new queen."_


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## crofter

I have no small hive beetles or wax moth, so no experience there. Putting a whole box of empty comb or foundation in the middle of the colony would seem to fly in the face of advice about adding in new space incrementally only as the bees need it.

There have been threads in the past regarding the Rose Hives methods and they certainly raised some eyebrows. Couesbros points are amongst some of the question marks.

The flow patterns and bee types Tim Rose deals with may not be parallel with what you will have in your location.

The one sized box has advantages but the size is somewhere between Lang deeps and mediums. Cost/benefit analysis time....


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## Litsinger

crofter said:


> The one sized box has advantages but the size is somewhere between Lang deeps and mediums. Cost/benefit analysis time...


Frank:

As always, your feedback is most helpful and brings a great perspective. After typing-out narratively the mechanics of the Rose Hive Method and considering couesbro's thoughts (weighed with Walt's thoughts on disturbing the brood nest) makes me reconsider the costs relative to the potential benefits of such an approach... All the more dangerous when small hive beetles are thrown in the mix.

To your point, I am ultimately looking to determine the most-productive method of employing the all eight-frame medium boxes I currently have (i.e. evaluating narrow frame spacing). To do it all over again I might have standardized on ten-frame deeps, but at present I must work with what I have.

As mentioned in my reply to couesbro, I might try an experiment of true nadiring to the bottom of the stack, recognizing that while I may not realize significant benefit, at least I won't be inviting significant trouble. 

Again, thank you for your sage counsel- I really appreciate it.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 7. Cautiously consider making a few splits and nucs.


I'll begin my thoughts on this subject by prefacing that I am a neophyte beekeeper, so please forgive my lack of understanding on the subject of systematically expanding one's apiary. At present, I am strictly hoping I don't systematically spell the demise of my apiary!

That said, and considering the theory of "adapted local stock" I am working from a premise that if there is stock in my area that is adapted, it is as a result of natural selection and that this process is dynamic and ongoing. In other words, the race for survival is incessant, with bees and varroa (and other symbiotic species) struggling to find balance in an ever-changing biological reality.

Starting from this basis as one's working hypothesis, how might this guide one's goals of a sustainable, managed Treatment-Free apiary? I came up with a few goals/precepts (and attendant conclusions) and I welcome other's input on this:

1. Prime swarms from un-managed stock represent the best that natural selection has to offer at present, distilled into a mated queen who has presumably made it through peak Fall varroa build-up and has overwintered successfully. As such, the backbone of any TF apiary should include the annual introduction of new prime swarm stock, even when assuming an apiary is fully-stocked and is consistently overwintering well (big assumptions, I know).

2. Un-managed stock may be surviving based on dynamics that are unknown or are at least under-appreciated. As such, integrating such stock into a managed environment may alter or otherwise mitigate these forces in ways that are at best not helpful and are at worst fatal. Considering this, one should seek to mimic un-managed conditions as much as are practical/attainable. This might include:

a. Smaller overall hive volumes.
b. More frequent swarming (i.e. no managed splits).
c. Natural comb building (i.e. no foundation).
d. No queen excluders.
e. No artificial feeding (i.e. no syrup and/or pollen sub.).
f. No honey harvest.
g. Others?

Obviously, many of these presumed survival mechanisms are discordant with the beekeeper's goals, so we recognize that practically speaking we can only implement these priorities to the extent that they do not unduly impact the keeper's goals/objectives.

3. (Related to Item #2) Un-managed stock may be successfully surviving/adapting but may not exhibit traits that are beneficial, at least from the beekeeper's perspective- in other words, un-managed colonies may be successfully adapted to their local environment and part of that adaptation might include:

a. Bad temperament.
b. High swarm proclivity.
c. Extensive propolization.
d. Extended, frequent brood breaks.
e. Insufficient surplus storage potential.
f. High pest/virus-harboring potential (i.e. Typhoid Mary).
g. Others?

While I think the above may only skim the surface, it does give one a lot to chew on when considering how to go about attempting a Treatment-Free management strategy. For me at least (my limited experience duly acknowledged), it is currently represented by the following guiding principles (subject to change at any time as conditions and observations warrant):

1. Hive as much local swarm stock as possible, regardless of initial observations of fitness. As an example, one of the swarms I caught this year came in with mites, and immediately exhibited mite drops. I elected to leave them to their own devices and by all subsequent observational mite evaluations they continued to exhibit a low-level mite load throughout the season.

2. Allow all hived stock to persist as they are able, despite exhibiting traits that might not be best-suited for a managed apiary.

3. Seek to grow the apiary primarily on the basis of hived prime swarms rather than managed splits and nucs.

4. Attempt to utilize foundationless and renew comb as much as practical.

5. Utilize an unlimited broodnest approach.

6. Seek to avoid supplemental feeding unless necessary for survival.

7. Related to #6, be more circumspect about taking a honey harvest, maybe only taking in the late fall (i.e. November here) when final stores can be accurately assessed.

Again, these goals are subject to change but are presented as a "proof of concept". Should the stock prove viable over a sufficient period of time, one then might feel confident to begin selectively breeding for traits with the admonition that these efforts could possibly run-afoul of natural selection's race for survival.

I am way outside of my depth regarding this discussion, so I invite the feedback and perspective of the more learned minds on this august forum.

Thank you all for your help and advice.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 4. Related to (1) and (3)- consider the dynamics of what makes colonies decide where to begin overwintering in the stack and evaluate the premise that anchoring in the bottom is most-suitable to long-term survivability and productivity in my climate.
> 
> 8. A little honey wouldn't hurt.


I thought I'd deal with both of these goals in one post as it seems intuitive to me that an un-managed colony has the means to "read" their stores and make overwintering preparations based on that reality. If I accept that premise as fact, it makes me consider how this kind of colony "intelligence" might manifest itself in a managed setting. For example:

1. When does a colony make the decision of where within the stack to overwinter, and is this decision-making process an ongoing evaluation or is it akin to their "go / no-go" decision to cast a reproductive swarm (Walt called this the Reproductive Cut-Off Date)?

2. Does the amount of stores left on a colony impact how early/how intensely they build-up relative to the first significant nectar availability of the season?

3. Related to Item (2), does a perceived surplus of stores impel a colony to store more pollen in planning for an early brooding effort?

As I understand Walt's "Nectar Management" approach, he attributed the additional storage of early nectar to a survival mechanism which is evoked by the beekeeper perforating the "honey dome" and giving the impression that their reserve overhead storage is in danger of being depleted. As such, they are literally foraging for their lives. I am curious if some of the early build-up advantages might not only be due to the survival trigger from the manipulation itself but also possibly augmented by the amount of overhead stores that are left in-place for the purposes of the manipulation?

In discussing both the concept and the actual practice of Checkerboarding with experienced practitioners, there seem to be two common keys to successful implementation that I am often reminded of, namely:

1. You must leave abundant stores on the colony. In my specific set-up (i.e. 8-frame mediums) and location (i.e. Western Kentucky), most suggest that a five-deep overwintering set-up is what is needed. This is more stores than is typically required to overwinter in my locale (i.e. 40 - 60 pounds).

2. The lower in the stack that the colony decides to overwinter, the better. Practically speaking, I understand that this means the first or second box in a five-box set-up, leaving more storage volume above to Checkerboard.

So at the risk of over-complicating this, the questions I hope to work toward answering this year are:

1. How do I encourage a colony to overwinter low in a five-box stack without supplemental feed? 

2. When is the earliest I can remove any potential surplus beyond the five-box base and not alter their decision to overwinter lower in the stack?

There may not be clear-cut answers to these questions, and it may have as much to do with colony genetics as anything.

What I do know based on my current small sample size is that one colony decided fairly early in the fall to set-up shop in the second box and has not moved from this location to-date, even after I gave them an additional box of stores early this month.

The second colony however was set-up in the third box late in the season, which happened to be the top of their volume based on what they were able to accomplish on their own this year. After I added two boxes of stores to their stack early this month, they promptly moved up to the very top of the stack.

Based on visual observations, both colonies seem to be of similar overwintering strength, so the only obvious difference between the two is the fact that the first colony had an additional box of stores going into late fall.

This effort also taught me that it is advisable to have a long-range focus regarding surplus honey gathering, noting that between comb-building needs and the goal of overwintering in a five-tall volume without supplemental feeding, there may be little to no "extra" honey to go around depending upon not only the flow itself but also on how many founder colonies one is trying to get positioned for five-tall overwintering.


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## squarepeg

as usual russ, very good questions. i'll add my thoughts based on what i have seen happening with my bees at my location, your milage may vary.




Litsinger said:


> When does a colony make the decision of where within the stack to overwinter, and is this decision-making process an ongoing evaluation or is it akin to their "go / no-go" decision to cast a reproductive swarm (Walt called this the Reproductive Cut-Off Date)?


best i can tell, it has a lot to do with how good/poor the fall nectar flow is. i.e. with a good fall flow the colonies will end up lower in the stack and provision the lower boxes with honey prior to close out.

conversely, when the fall flow is lacking, the colonies will have to consume spring honey to accomplish the fall brooding of overwintering bees. this tends to have them closing out higher in the stack leaving more empty comb down below.




Litsinger said:


> Does the amount of stores left on a colony impact how early/how intensely they build-up relative to the first significant nectar availability of the season?


if it does i haven't noticed it. the limiting factors on how quickly a colony builds up are the size of the cluster coming out of winter, along with how conducive the weather is for freeing up foragers to gather fresh pollen and nectar.




Litsinger said:


> ...does a perceived surplus of stores impel a colony to store more pollen in planning for an early brooding effort?


i haven't noticed that either russ. if anything pollen appears to have a 'shelf-life' to it and it's not unusual for me to see some of last season's stale pollen getting hauled out.




Litsinger said:


> As I understand Walt's "Nectar Management" approach, he attributed the additional storage of early nectar to a survival mechanism which is evoked by the beekeeper..


i haven't noticed much early nectar getting stored. it appears to me that during the build up virtually all incoming nectar along with last season's honey gets used up for brooding. a couple of other beekeepers in my area got panicky when seeing this that thinking starvation was imminent and decided to feed. i hang in there and spring starvation hasn't been an issue.




Litsinger said:


> You must leave abundant stores on the colony. In my specific set-up (i.e. 8-frame mediums) and location (i.e. Western Kentucky), most suggest that a five-deep overwintering set-up is what is needed. This is more stores than is typically required to overwinter in my locale (i.e. 40 - 60 pounds).


you may have read in my thread that i am surprised how little honey gets consumed by my bees through the winter months, somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15 lbs. most of the rest of the 40 lbs. or so i try to leave gets consumed during the brood up. some of those extra pounds end up getting harvested along with the new spring honey.




Litsinger said:


> The lower in the stack that the colony decides to overwinter, the better. Practically speaking, I understand that this means the first or second box in a five-box set-up, leaving more storage volume above to Checkerboard.


so in the end i really don't think it matters too much where the cluster spends winter. you are going to rearrange the stack for optimal brooding when you do your checkerboarding manipulation. using all mediums makes this especially easy for you.

the other comment i'll offer in response to your previous post is that i had bad results with trying to insert a super of foundation between the brood box(es) below and drawn honey supers above. the 'barrier' i introduced had the effect of having the colony backfill the broodnest and swarm.

i now avoid putting any foundation out until i see new white wax being produced. i also coat the plastic foundation i use with melted cappings wax, and place the foundation super on the top of the stack. i may rotate the super down into the stack once the bees have started drawing and filling comb, moving capped honey supers ready for harvest to the top of the stack.


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> so in the end i really don't think it matters too much where the cluster spends winter. you are going to rearrange the stack for optimal brooding when you do your checkerboarding manipulation. using all mediums makes this especially easy for you.
> 
> the other comment i'll offer in response to your previous post is that i had bad results with trying to insert a super of foundation between the brood box(es) below and drawn honey supers above. the 'barrier' i introduced had the effect of having the colony backfill the broodnest and swarm.


Squarepeg:

Thank you very much for your detailed and helpful reply. Your responses are always insightful and well-reasoned. At the risk of putting you on the spot, how would you define an "optimal brooding" arrangement employing all mediums? I assume you might suggest the following arrangement subsequent to Checkerboarding (bottom-to-top):

Box 1- Cluster (moved from wherever they happen to be found)?
Boxes 2 thru 5- ehehehehe (in the event of 8 frames, maybe eliminate the 'empty' on the North side of the stack)?

Additionally, I am curious:

1. If the cluster spans two boxes, you keep the cluster intact and move both boxes to the bottom?

2. If one wanted to add a new box for eventual drawing-out in conjunction with the CB'ing, it could be added to the very bottom of the stack with little risk?

Finally, if I understand Tim Rowe correctly, he installs new frames for drawing out within the broodnest prior to the Solstice and directly above the broodnest after the Solstice.

If I think about amalgamating his approach with Walt's, it might look like:

1. Add new boxes to the very bottom of the stack prior to Reproductive Cut-Off, possibly "pyramiding-down" when the threat of chilled brood is past.

2. Add new boxes (including drawn empty honey supers) directly above the broodnest after Reproductive Cut-Off.

That said, this is all theory and may not make good sense in practice.

Thanks again for all your help and advice- it is most appreciated.

Russ


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## squarepeg

i would consider leaving an empty box on the bottom to keep any cold drafts from a bottom entrance away from the nest, so i would move the nest down to box 2 at the checkerboarding manipulation.

then eheheheh above keeping honey over honey and empty comb over empty comb, with the empty being at the north and honey being at the south. (the relatively warmer southern exposure renders the honey more 'usuable' in the early season).

yes, keep the nest intact if it spans two boxes. if that far along and if temps are moderating it would probably be alright to put them down to the 1 and 2 position.

i've had no luck getting comb drawn when putting foundation at the bottom of the stack.

almost all of the new comb building in a given season here happens between the end of april and the middle of june. new wax appears first at the top of the stack perhaps because the warmer temperatures allow it.

foundationless frames place in the middle of the broodnest prior to that time tend to get drawn into drone comb. after that time the flows dissipate and the bees will make the best use of what comb they have already drawn.

arranging the honey supers during the flow such that the frames that have been filled and/or capped are at the top and frames of empty comb are toward the bottom and just above the nest area is a good idea.

your bees may exhibit different traits and your flows may be different as well russ. don't be afraid to experiment and it may take some trial and error to figure out what works best with your circumstances.

i would consider not worrying too much about swarm prevention and honey production next year. i recommend aggressive splitting (and more swarm collection) and shooting for getting the hive count up to a dozen or so.

4 eight frame mediums is about the same volume as 2 ten frame deeps and should be more than big enough for overwintering in kentucky.


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## Litsinger

Thank you, Squarepeg. Excellent advice. The wax making (and flows) around here looks to generally track with yours, though we might be a week to 10 days behind you. There was some wax drawn out into July this year. I would certainly be proud to have the hive count at a dozen by year's end, as that would exceed my goal by twice.

I had generally good success getting foundationless frames drawn-out this year, so I am encouraged to experiment a bit more with this.

Thanks again for all your help and encouragement. Have a great weekend. 

Russ


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## Litsinger

One final management goal I have for 2019 is to experiment with slatted racks to ascertain if they provide an appreciable benefit.

As such, I have prepped a few bottom boards with slatted racks oriented 'cold-way'. Some of the benefits I have heard relative to their use include:

1. Less comb chewing and a greater likelihood of the queen laying all the way to the bottom of the frames in the first box.

2. Better overwintering due to decreased drafts and possibly less queen mortality due to mitigation of accumulated moisture on the bottom board (Walt urges tilting hives forward in the winter as a precaution against this).

3. Less bearding due to a larger "vestibule" for summer ventilation activities.

4. Less swarming due to crowding (I expect Walt would not agree with this one). :no:

On the downside, I could see that: 

1. The additional volume/corners could present yet more places to harbor small hive beetles. 

2. The slats themselves could present an impediment to pests falling all the way down and through the screened bottom. 

So, I'd like to see if the purported benefits are observable and whether any of my concerns might manifest themselves.

This gets me caught-up with my TF thoughts/observations to-date and goals for this coming year, so I'll now plan on posting less frequently as I have anything noteworthy to share or activities that might be helpful to future beginners in the TF arena.

I sincerely appreciate all the help and advice that everyone has afforded me thus far- I am much the wiser for it.

My sincerest hope is that everyone has a most joyous and blessed Christmas, and a year of overflowing prosperity for you, your families and the work of your hands.

Russ


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## Litsinger

This morning I was reading a post on a Treatment-Free group I belong to, and a 10+ year TF beekeeper was asking for suggestions as to why they had been able to successfully manage their hives (approximately 16) treatment free for 8 years with good overwintering success until the last two years, in which the mites have prevailed (identified high levels of DWV) and most of their hives have now succumbed. They asked:

_Have they lost their hygienic genes? 
Have I got too comfortable and careless?_

Some suggestions proffered include:

1. Bad weather.
2. Poor mating.
3. New commercial stock in the area.
4. Pathogen shift.
5. Less swarming/splitting due to the established nature of the beekeeper and the apiary.
6. Hive density too high.
7. Hive volumes too large.

This reminded me of the experience a large commercial operator in my area related to me. Specifically, he was able to run a good-sized commercial operation for approximately 7 years successfully without treatments. Starting in the eighth year, he described that his winter losses grew year-over-year (due to pathogen damage) to the point that after year ten, it was no longer financially tenable for him to continue on without treatments. Currently, he manages a thriving commercial operation treating for mites with both MAQS and HopGuard.

Accounts like this seek to alternately temper my expectations relative to long-term TF success and question what are the keys to both establishing and maintaining a TF apiary?

For those who are currently managing TF apiaries, what would you say are the irreducible element(s) which are key to your success? I recognize that these foundational elements will likely be different depending upon one's specific location and circumstances.

What do you think is the most sustainable antidote to countering pathogen virulence? 

Is simply splitting from the survivors the best approach to genetic adaptation, or should either new local and/or outside genetics be frequently brought-in to support adaptive efforts?

What hive dynamic mechanisms existing in nature among adapted local stock can be successfully integrated into a managed apiary?

These are overarching questions I hope to explore further in my efforts with managing bees in a treatment-free context, and I welcome everyone's input.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ..Is simply splitting from the survivors the best approach to genetic adaptation..


Many questions, Russ.
I selected only one for a discussion.

So, entirely possible to be lucky enough and coast in a TF mode for several years and pay no attention to the circumstances around you (AS IF they are static).
Well, if you ignore the surroundings something may bite you sooner or later.
Maybe what happened in you examples. 

I do not think repeat splitting, year after year, is sufficient (IF there is continuous, per annual intake of "almond" bees - let me just call any non-resistant bee that - "almond" bee).
If you ignore the issue and assume you are all set, eventually, "almond" drones may overtake your "resistant" queens by dilution of your lines - simply put.

Even if you are not aware of any "almond" bee presence around you, I say, just assume they are present and be alert and plan your moves proactively.
If not there yet, they will arrive (by people or by their own).

It is critical to manage for competitive drone presence of your own lines in your vicinity, so that your own "blood" is sustainable at some critical level.
If you allow you own "blood" to drop below the critical level (due to dilution), you will just become another "almond bee", so to speak.
The mechanics of the drone management I have no experience in (only theoretical plans).

For sure, I am planning to keep my desired queens for as long as they live and produce even few drones - if 5-6 years, then great (though unlikely due the possible supersedes)!
In fact, if you have a desired queen that still produces just drone and nothing else - keep her up by just periodically importing brood so she has support stuff.
The whole point of a drone generating queen - the drones.
That is one item of my future plans.

I am just learning to fly this chem-free plane as I am already flying it. Haha!
Fun.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> This morning I was reading a post on a Treatment-Free group I belong to, and a 10+ year TF beekeeper was asking for suggestions as to why they had been able to successfully manage their hives (approximately 16) treatment free for 8 years with good overwintering success until the last two years, in which the mites have prevailed (identified high levels of DWV) and most of their hives have now succumbed. They asked:
> 
> _Have they lost their hygienic genes?
> Have I got too comfortable and careless?_
> 
> Some suggestions proffered include:
> 
> 1. Bad weather.
> 2. Poor mating.
> 3. New commercial stock in the area.
> 4. Pathogen shift.
> 5. Less swarming/splitting due to the established nature of the beekeeper and the apiary.
> 6. Hive density too high.
> 7. Hive volumes too large.
> 
> This reminded me of the experience a large commercial operator in my area related to me. Specifically, he was able to run a good-sized commercial operation for approximately 7 years successfully without treatments. Starting in the eighth year, he described that his winter losses grew year-over-year (due to pathogen damage) to the point that after year ten, it was no longer financially tenable for him to continue on without treatments. Currently, he manages a thriving commercial operation treating for mites with both MAQS and HopGuard.
> 
> Accounts like this seek to alternately temper my expectations relative to long-term TF success and question what are the keys to both establishing and maintaining a TF apiary?
> 
> For those who are currently managing TF apiaries, what would you say are the irreducible element(s) which are key to your success? I recognize that these foundational elements will likely be different depending upon one's specific location and circumstances.
> 
> What do you think is the most sustainable antidote to countering pathogen virulence?
> 
> Is simply splitting from the survivors the best approach to genetic adaptation, or should either new local and/or outside genetics be frequently brought-in to support adaptive efforts?
> 
> What hive dynamic mechanisms existing in nature among adapted local stock can be successfully integrated into a managed apiary?
> 
> These are overarching questions I hope to explore further in my efforts with managing bees in a treatment-free context, and I welcome everyone's input.


Very interesting post!
Ups, I forgot: thanks for this very interesting post!

Before answering more I would like to know if there were several beekeepers in this TF group that had the same problems? Or just one? In which state (climate) were they?

Everybody reading my diary know how closely similar my experiences have been, but not in the end having to give up.


----------



## JWChesnut

The premise of the question "splitting from survivors the best approach to genetic adaptation" is misguided. A little backyard apiary run by a newbee is not, categorically, "genetically adapting". That apiary is simply quickly converging on the mean genetics of the region. It is reverting, not adapting. Adaptation of any species requires a very high degree of heritability, and little apiaries in a large ocean of other genetics have virtually *no* heritability. Until you grasp this hard truth, you are simply living in a delusional fantasy.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So, entirely possible to be lucky enough and coast in a TF mode for several years and pay no attention to the circumstances around you (AS IF they are static).
> Well, if you ignore the surroundings something may bite you sooner or later. Maybe what happened in you examples.


GregV:

Great reply- I look forward to see what conclusions you derive from your current project. I think your quote above captures my fundamental inquiry- is it possible to be "lucky" with treatment-free for several years, only to come crashing back down to earth? Or as you note, is it prudent to assume that stasis may come back to bite you later?

Said another way, the blueprint for a TF apiary is often described as follows:

1. Capture local swarm stock to build colony numbers.

2. Once apiary has been fully-stocked, replace winter losses with splits.

3. Begin selecting for traits within survivor stock to improve productivity.

While this is obviously oversimplified, I am curious if some of the resilient nature of the survivor stock is being lost through successive splits.

This is all conceptual in nature and built on many assumptions, but these anecdotes make me curious if one should plan on systematically bringing in outside swarm stock as a feature of TF apiary management assuming one has locally-adapted unmanaged stock.

Merry Christmas to you and your family!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Before answering more I would like to know if there were several beekeepers in this TF group that had the same problems? Or just one? In which state (climate) were they?


Juhani:

Merry Christmas to you and your family!

The author of the post is located in New York state, and while I cannot speak for the other members of the forum, it does seem anecdotally that there are many who have pursued a treatment-free paradigm only to move away from it due to unsustainable losses after several years of apparent success. 

It seems plain that TF may not be viable in certain environments based on a host of factors outside a beekeeper's control, but it is curious to hear about seemingly successful multi-year TF apiaries which experience this collapse phenomenon. 

These stories make me question how one might best combat this apparent loss of virus tolerance in developing an apiary growth strategy knowing there are no guarantees.

Thank you for your reply, and I always enjoy your insight.

Here's hoping that you and your family have a most prosperous 2019, both personally and professionally.

Russ


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> ... these anecdotes make me curious if one should plan on systematically bringing in outside swarm stock as a feature of TF apiary management assuming one has locally-adapted unmanaged stock.
> 
> Merry Christmas to you and your family!
> 
> Russ


Russ, I think - yes.

I think it is a very good idea to periodically bring in desired queens from outside. 
It maybe it is a mandatory component if the population is dominated by "almond" bees.
*Basic exchange of good material* between the TF beeks is a no-brainer, IMO.
Staying self-contained because you are "all set" is a mistaken approach UNLESS you maybe have very strong and sustainable presence of resistant ferals (which you feed off from and totally depend on).

It is all about sustainable local population which is bigger than a single, self-contained operation.
I will be first to offer my resistant queens to my neighboring beeks for FREE (just as soon as I think I have something worthy).
For now I have been only a recipient.
At least one TF friend in my locality is doing exactly that - giving away his queens.
One has to think wider than their own backyard.

Bees are all about continuous cross-pollination (where the external environment continuously selects out the bad choices).
This is just like apples, exacept much faster at turn-over and you can not clone bees at the exact specimen material level (as you can do with the apples). 
Nothing is ever self-contained and static.

Merry Christmas!


----------



## JWChesnut

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> Said another way, the blueprint for a TF apiary is often described as follows:
> 1. Capture local swarm stock to build colony numbers.
> 2. Once apiary has been fully-stocked, replace winter losses with splits.
> 3. Begin selecting for traits within survivor stock to improve productivity.


This is the catechism. However the reality is often quite different (and the TF Guru's obscure this for unknown reasons).

One prominent TF lecturer gets on his soapbox with this catechism. However, a participant in the Bee Camps held at his house in the midwest recently wrote:
"I did it all! From installing 50 packages of bees to splitting hives ...." (and on for several paragraphs).​
So the "catch local swarms" guru is rebuilding losses in his apiary by installing packages. You have been snookered.


----------



## msl

> Basic exchange of good material between the TF beeks is a no-brainer, IMO.


sounds great, now find out why its not happing 
showed an easy way to do it in this thread  nothing but crickets. 

you apple comet is spot on.... every seed on the apple tree is genetically different, even in the same apple.... the term your looking for is genetic recombination... the apple throws out a bunch of options to see what sticks, the rest die
bees are masters at genetic recombination as well, and you have to handle them much the same way.... take the rare winner and graft the heck out of it, requeening all the hives that are nothing but root stock for the graft. unlike apples you cant clone, so you don't graft form a graft form a graft, you need to slect the next rair winner and repeat.


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## Riverderwent

GregV said:


> I will be first to offer my resistant queens to my neighboring beeks for FREE (just as soon as I think I have something worthy).


The boys slip out of the beeyard on sunny spring afternoons.


----------



## GregB

Riverderwent said:


> The boys are allowed outside the beeyard.


Well, yes.
This is why I keep ranting - produce the drones. 
Many of them. Design them in.
Do the opposite what the conventions are teaching - cull the drones.

But the thing with giving a queen away - you know exactly status of that queen (where, when, still-alive, etc).
With the boys - you have none of that except - you are playing into the probabilities games (the more, the merrier - all you have to play with).


----------



## msl

> This is why I keep ranting - produce the drones


releasing non breeder stock drones is a poor plan, if that queen has overwintered twice(or at least once) thats a different story... but you dont want to send out a bunch of bad apples that will get sent back to you at some point.


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## Riverderwent

GregV said:


> But the thing with giving a queen away - you know exactly status of that queen (where, when, still-alive, etc).
> With the boys - you have none of that except - you are playing into the probabilities games (the more, the merrier - all you have to play with).


So I tend to think that the drones are sorta clones of the queen ‘cause of the haplo daplo thing. Whereas daddy has some input on the queen’s daughters’ genes. So I know the boy’s family better than the girl’s. Now, you can pick the hives better by sharing queens, but I like all my hives except the dead ones, and, anecdotally, my experience is that dead drones are not competitive when it comes to mating flights.


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## Litsinger

JWChesnut said:


> Adaptation of any species requires a very high degree of heritability, and little apiaries in a large ocean of other genetics have virtually *no* heritability.


JW:

Thank you for your feedback. I have noted that you are a truth-teller here on Beesource, and I respect that.

As I have noted in previous posts, I have no preconceived notions of success in pursuing a Treatment-Free regime. I am fully-prepared for abject failure, but want to make sure that such failure is not for lack of trying the prevalent methods of management being pursued by successful TF operators.

Regarding adaptation, I should clarify that I have no allusions of making any appreciable impact on the apicultural genetic footprint in my area. In truth, I only hope to "tap-into" these genetics assuming that they provide some modicum of tolerance to the varroa-vectored diseases prevalent in my area. In doing so, I am making three fundamental assumptions, knowing that if any of the three are false, it spells a fatal flaw to my current TF apiary design, namely:

1. There are unmanaged bee resources in my area.

2. These resources exhibit factors which allow them to survive symbiotically with the predominant pests and diseases in my area.

3. These factors will continue to persist when these unmanaged resources are hived in my apiary.

Assuming all the above is true (and recognizing that it may not), the logical next question in my mind is how to sustain this resistance and/or tolerance in the face of an ever-changing struggle for balance between the bee and its varied pest and disease companions.

I sincerely do appreciate your input, and please feel welcome to share your advice anytime- you will not hurt my feelings.

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Russ


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> releasing non breeder stock drones is a poor plan, if that queen has overwintered twice(or at least once) thats a different story... but you dont want to send out a bunch of bad apples that will get sent back to you at some point.


Nobody says - send out bad apples.

I have been ranting all along - keep the *desired *queens as your *drone producers* for as long as they are alive.
Do not pinch them. Ever.
Keep them for as long as they keep producing anything (even if ONLY drones - that is the whole point).


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> sounds great, now find out why its not happing
> showed an easy way to do it in this thread  nothing but crickets.
> 
> ... every seed on the apple tree is genetically different, even in the same apple....


Well, with the hobbyists with full time job and other duties (like myself) it is hard to be on time by the hour (regarding the 48-hour method).
However, it is very forgiving to take your queen-less nuc to the friend's apiary and have them set you up with a queen.
While they propagate anyway - there is always extra material that goes to waste.
I have done it and it worked great.
Next season will do again (send my recipient nucs away and may even take in some nucs if things look OK).

Speaking of apples - them are great demo to show the uniqueness of every single speciment! 
I pull few seedlings out of my compost pile; quietly stick them in around the area and see what they do. Keep them in pots too.
If they do OK and show good health, they work out as temporary parking for good scions - at the very least (chance of really good apples is low to worry about). 
I graft good material onto them and use as holding slots for good varieties.


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## msl

> Well, with the hobbyists with full time job and other duties (like myself) it is hard to be on time by the hour (regarding the 48-hour method)


I don't know what gives you that impression, you could likely be off by a day either way and be fine, maby a shorter time out of the hive or a bit more transport loss... they ship them over night
honestly is makes things simpler... as some one who works crazy schedules its much easier to predict were I will be in 48 hours then in 10 days 
Larry Connor gives 48s a 10 hour transport limit
Joe Latshaw says just grafted larva can go 3 hours... witch is honestly longer then most "local" areas need, figger with 24s and 36s some were in between


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> This is just like apples, exacept much faster at turn-over and you can not clone bees at the exact specimen material level (as you can do with the apples). Nothing is ever self-contained and static.


GregV:

Great analogy- I had not thought of it this way before, but that makes complete sense. With clonal stock, you get predictable true-to-type offspring. With the seed of a cross-pollenated fruit, not so much- result could be great, middling or terrible, even seeds from the same piece of fruit.

I sincerely appreciate your input and you certainly have some good word pictures that help to illuminate many of these concepts.


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## GregB

msl said:


> I don't know what gives you that impression, you could likely be off by a day either way and be fine, maby a shorter time out of the hive or a bit more transport loss... they ship them over night
> honestly is makes things simpler... as some one who works crazy schedules its much easier to predict were I will be in 48 hours then in 10 days
> Larry Connor gives 48s a 10 hour transport limit
> Joe Latshaw says just grafted larva can go 3 hours... witch is honestly longer then most "local" areas need, figger with 24s and 36s some were in between


OK, Mike, I do agree - this method is to be considered just as any.
Any method is to be considered so to implement the same main strategy - worthy material exchange, cross-pollination, and expansion are important IF to keep the worthy lines afloat.


----------



## GregB

JWChesnut said:


> ..A little backyard apiary ... is not, categorically, "genetically adapting".....


If you run it using conventional approaches - sure.

The answer is - do NOT follow the conventions.
Screw the conventions if you are to have any degree of success.


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## GregB

Riverderwent said:


> So I tend to think that the drones are sorta clones of the queen ‘cause of the haplo daplo thing. Whereas daddy has some input on the queen’s daughters’ genes. So I know the boy’s family better than the girl’s. Now, you can pick the hives better by sharing queens, but I like all my hives except the dead ones, and, anecdotally, my experience is that dead drones are not competitive when it comes to mating flights.


Well, you have to work the both sides - boys and girls.
Typical approach is to only work the girls.
A mistake, I think.
I do mean to work the both sides best I can.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> showed an easy way to do it in this thread  nothing but crickets.


MSL:

Thank you for your input- I sincerely appreciate you sharing the link. One comment you made that stuck-out to me was that, "Mass distribution and re queening for years with the original genetic source is what it took to drive the AMM genes out of the managed hives."

I saw after the fact that you had the same reaction to GregV's apple analogy- this fundamentally is my rhetorical question:

Assuming local resistance is available in unmanaged sources, how does one maintain that resistance year-over-year in a managed setting, knowing that the subsequent generations produced in one's yard will be a potentially unpredictable result?

Thank you again for all your help and advice, and Merry Christmas to you and your family. 

Russ


----------



## Riverderwent

Litsinger said:


> Assuming local resistance is available in unmanaged sources, how does one maintain that resistance year-over-year in a managed setting, knowing that the subsequent generations produced in one's yard will be a potentially unpredictable result?


If resistance is the neighborhood norm, then letting your bees supersede when they want to and open mate moves you toward resistance, not away from it. Or am I misunderstanding your question?


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## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Accounts like this seek to alternately temper my expectations relative to long-term TF success and question *what are the keys to both establishing and maintaining a TF apiary*?
> 
> For those who are currently managing TF apiaries, what would you say are the irreducible element(s) *which are key to your success*?


Merry Christmas Litsinger!

I´m about to say something from my lofty post. 



pay attention!




Answer to your questions: To get bee material tested for TF qualities and controlled mating of their offspring. And even so the apples come out with such great variation you are lucky if you can come up with some results and pick up the right ones.


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## msl

> how does one maintain that resistance year-over-year in a managed setting, knowing that the subsequent generations produced in one's yard will be a potentially unpredictable result?


mostly they don't, hence the problems
The same way you would maintain/increase any other trait in bees 
Strong negative and positive selection and a large sample size 
breed from the top 2%, re queen the bottom 70% as they are average or below average...
lets take mites out of it, and just call the trait we want winter survival 
Ie if your taking 50% average winter losses you are keeping 1/2 of the average pool and all of the above average and extremely above average stock 
View attachment 45017

that means 68% of what made it threw winter is still average, and realy no better then what was lost. there off spring will be average... that means 50% losses ... so if you came threw the winter with 50 hives and made a walkaway split per hive, so now you have 100
so 68 are crap, splits from hives that were alive, but not necessarily one that came thew winter well 1/2 will be dead next year (they are average)
28 are better they are above average call them 20% better, thats 40% losses 
4 or so came form 2 hives that came out of winter super strong and you only will lose 25%
well thats 34+11+1 you lose 46%.. maby a slight improvement, maby the luck of the draw makes it better or worce 

now rerun the numbers making 82 queens from those 2 great hives instead of just 2... pinching the average ones and replacing them, and making all your increase with the new ones..
so thats 84 hives at a 25% loss and 14 at 40% 
That's 27 hives lost....... 27% losses 
This is how you shift a trait in your stock... spit ball numbers for sure, but it shows why propagating form average to just above average 

Now don't forget you have also altered your drones, not just you queens, instead of 68 hives putting out average drones(crap), they are puting out drones from high preforming stock. Their grand sons will be heading back to your queens from surrounding hives in the area in years to come.. 

No were do I use the word breeding, this is pure stock selection and propagation, even as it is most TFers don't have a large enuff pool to pull this off unless they work together...much lees be at a point they can control or highly influence their drone stock 

Best they can hope for is find the extra good apple, propagate it on the rootstock of the rest , repeat every year or 2. 
The more hives involved, the better the chances of finding something good

now there are places were the background comes in and gives you what you need.. the selection pressure in the wild is strong enuf to provide you with great drone stock, but that is not the norm for most

AN as JL point out cuting threw the clutter is a problem unless you set up objective tests to base your slection on.

Breeding for honey production is a great example... people tried to just breed there top producing hives... but that didn't work out well....many hives just gambled and won.. they hit the season just right that year....
So people took a step back... what creates honey production? hives that have a large population over there brood rearing needs
so they slected for low swarming and high brood rearing, traits that lead to honey producing.


----------



## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> If resistance is the neighborhood norm, then letting your bees supersede when they want to and open mate moves you toward resistance, not away from it. Or am I misunderstanding your question?


David:

Thank you for your reply. This conversation started in response to a TF beekeeper sharing on another forum that they were able to be TF for 8 years before suffering profound losses in years 9 and 10 to the point that their apiary is decimated. This, coupled with the similar experience of a local commercial beekeeper in my area got me wondering whether both beekeepers started with resistant stock only to see this resistance wane in succeeding generations.

This in-turn made me question whether the way in which we propagate has an impact on the long-term resistant profile of the local stock in ones yard?

Knowing you have had extensive multi-year experience with local stock, I am curious if you have you observed differences between hived swarm stock and intentionally-propegated stock in terms of resistance?

Thank you for your advice and input.

Russ


----------



## gww

msl
The thing your post does not cover that would seem to have an input in my thinking is, mites are thirty year in now and not a new thing. They should be having some type of back ground influence almost everywhere. So if things breed to average, the average should have shifted a bit. I believe there are other factors also. If nature is a constant war, then there would be some ebbs and flows involved. This shows in almost everything else whether fruit blooms or mice population fluctuations. There is so much effecting so many other things that it is a hard picture to put together. Our inputs are the only part of the equation that we have some ability to maybe track depending on what else is going on. The other stuff going on may have a bigger impact for good or bad and is probably not constant in that there is not ebbs and flows but is constant in that we have had steady mite pressure of some kind for 30 plus years.

I saw a study the other day that had to do with learning (how I took it) and that pressure could cause an genetic RNA change that could be passed on to off spring in one generation (this is how I took it but I am half illiterate).

I understand the stacking of the deck in breeding for resistance but also wonder if the deck is not stacked just as hard with how things naturally happen in nature. If nature breeds to average, I am not sure that just breeding from survivors and not being that selective might not actually be more selective then flooding the area with your choice of what you think is good. It probably depends on your area but all areas should be affected after thirty years of mite pressure then it was thirty years ago. I can see factors causing bad years of hive loss just like it does in any agro operation and whether you treat or not. 

Our inputs might gain us advantage that might win for a while in one area and lose in others or we might do just as well in letting nature take its course with its ebbs and flows. I personally think it is hard to make a mistake if you just pick from your best from your view and let the chips fall where they may. Doing this, if bees breed to average, you may go up and down a little but there will be enough back ground noise that you won't get too far off track if you don't flood the area too fast and all at once. It might be a little slower but you may not be so likely to miss something important along the way. 

It is to big with too much unknown influence to be too sure of anything.
Not saying I know anything, just my thinking on it.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> And even so the apples come out with such great variation you are lucky if you can come up with some results and pick up the right ones.


Juhani:

Thank you for your reply- I sincerely appreciate it. So although you say that one is lucky to come up with the right genetics, it seems like John Milton said, "Luck is the residue of design."

You seem to have built an apiary design which has helped create sustainable resistance- so you must be doing something right.

Thank you again for sharing. You admonition to be vigilant is good advice.

Here's to a healthy and prosperous New Year to you and your family.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> ... now there are places were the background comes in and gives you what you need.. the selection pressure in the wild is strong enuf to provide you with great drone stock, but that is not the norm for most


MSL:

Great post. I had to read through it three times carefully to fully-grasp the foundational concept you were laying-out.

So it sounds as if the more basic question is whether one has a predominance of adapted genetic material in their area. If so, the means of propagating one's yard may be less critical.

Conversely, if one lives in an area which is not dominated by adapted material, your chance of success in a TF regime will be suspect at best, and likely highly-influenced by one's propagation method.

Leaves me with a lot to think about, and further reinforces my initial goal of "proof of concept".

Thank you again for the input, and I sincerely hope that you and your family have a healthy and prosperous 2019.

Russ


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## JWChesnut

Evolution is lazy. The process uses "pre-adapted" traits when faced with an altered condition. For bees facing enhanced mortality, this means reproduction is favored. The result: increased swarm frequency. This "feral adaptation" is observed and predicted: Little hives that swarm constantly. Little hives have a consequence: robbing tendency to secure winter food is enhanced. Robbing tendency has a consequence: Bees that are mean and defensive, and quick to offensively attack other colonies.

Feral bees are mean as junkyard dogs, make no surplus honey, swarm at the drop of a hat, and are hated by a beekeepers trying to secure a human surplus.

This is why feral colonies are not a favored strategy for folks keeping bees as domestic stock.

The "armchair" solutions by newbees thinking they will outsmart Varroa have been around for 30 years. They invariably leave off the consequences.


----------



## GregB

gww said:


> if bees breed to average, you may go up and down a little but there will be enough back ground noise that you won't get too far off track if you don't flood the area too fast and all at once. It might be a little slower but you may not be so likely to miss something important along the way.
> 
> Cheers
> gww


I like your thinking, gww.
LJ stated it more then once too and I agree - this tendency to go for a quick selection of some specialists (those 2% as indicated by MSL) is not a good idea.
It will only quickly return superficial results that maybe producing desired results on-the-spot, but not really non-term sustainable.
Yes - you could quickly claim positive result and even write a paper about it.
Is your result sustainable in 5-10-15 year run? 
Not so sure.

Most any narrow specialist (say, a pest-resistant specialist) is not sustainable and is fragile due to loss of many other important contributing factors needed for just general well-being (at the expense of superb specialty performance).
Average performer is sufficient at that I feel.
I will take an average performer - no sweat.
I will take 50% survival over 80-90% survival - no sweat. 
50% survival is fine and likely to be still be around in 10 years.
90% survival is less likely to still be there in 10 years. 
Possible? Sure.
Will I bank on it? No.

So, I will take a rough and gritty green beret soldier over a specialist marathon runner.
Will a marathon runner beat the solder at a marathon run?
If both are running in short and sneakers - no doubt!
But the generalist-solder can make it to the finish still, while also carrying his rifle, his ammo, his backpack.
And the generalist will still make it in *acceptably fast time-frame too * while still outrunning 50% of the general population.
So, that is my choice - good enough generalist (vs. superb specialist).


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> ... we might do just as well in letting nature take its course with its ebbs and flows.


GWW:

Awesome post. As I have read everyone's feedback, it seems that the first and most-foundational step is to see what sort of stock from the area one has to work with, and to make your propegation decisions based on that reality.

Taking it one step further (and assuming a predominantly adapted genetic profile), I continue to wonder if prime swarms should always be a part of one's apiary design as the primary way one replaces losses rather than relying on splitting from survivors. 

The logic being that a prime swarm presumably is represented by genetics which have overwintered successfully in the face of varroa pressure- the downside being they come with unpredictable traits.

That said, this approach may reflect a fundamental ignorance on my part, so I'll gladly stand corrected.

I sincerely hope that you and your family have a prosperous New Year, both personally and professionally.

Russ


----------



## GregB

JWChesnut said:


> ...Feral bees are mean as junkyard dogs, make no surplus honey, swarm at the drop of a hat, and are hated by a beekeepers trying to secure a human surplus...


squarepeg, 
Are these your feral bees?

PS: yes - I do mean sarcasm.


----------



## gww

russ
I think a lot has to do with what your objectives are and what you want out of your bees.

I do think your area would have a big say in what you start with and you can only find out in one way, trying it.

Most do not keep bees with the intent to just help the bees, they want something back for the work they put in. 

So if you don't want much, waiting on swarms can be enough but if you want a business that maximizes profit, JW's post might have things that counter being able to do it all. If you want to expand and not go backwards, it may take more manipulations and splits.

It all depends on where you think success is and how close you are shown that you are to that success when you do the trying. Then you do whatever adjustment that is needed from that starting point. It will not be measured the same by everyone.

First step in my mind is either finding somebody close to emulate or just try something and adjust as you go.

You do not know till you try and even then things can change in either direction.

Good luck
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> You do not know till you try and even then things can change in either direction.


Thanks, GWW. It sounds like this pretty much sums it up.

I do appreciate your help and input, and have a great day.

Russ


----------



## gww

Russ
Rereading, I think I completely missed the intent of your last post.


> Taking it one step further (and assuming a predominantly adapted genetic profile), I continue to wonder if prime swarms should always be a part of one's apiary design as the primary way one replaces losses rather than relying on splitting from survivors.


In my mind this could be an either way thing. I try and stop swarming. When not successful, I try and catch the swarms whether prime or secondary. I think it would be best to split from a hive that is hitting all your marks and not just rely on one that swarms cause it is healthy enough to swarm.

I don't practice what I preach and actually split from a couple smaller hives last year cause I knew they would not make me honey anyway. I also did not try and get my very best genetics to make the queen from. I was using more the scatter gun approach of just having enough hives around that they would not all die at the same time if things started to go bad. My biggest goal is to have bees and not buy any ever. It is sorta the scatter gun approach with an ideal in the back of my mind that when I have a few years on my hives and start seeing trends between hives I could try harder to influence what I end up with and would have the bees to do that with.

I do not say this is smart for others to follow, just how I am handling it.

I think your goals have a lot to do with what you do. My first goal was to never buy bees, second goal was to try and learn my flows so that I had a base of what the bees did on their own and might be considered normal. Eventually I will get to the improvement stage using what I saw as normal to judge against any small thing I change, so I can see what impact I do and how it makes a difference. I plan on changing stuff a very little at a time so that I don't get confused on which change actually did what. I figure it is going to take years compared to just emulating what someone does that I know does it better then me. To me the learning and thinking I at least really know the parts I get to is part of my bee keeping and hobby with the key word being hobby.

Cheers
gww
Ps an example of a change I might try this year would be to put a few hives in a different location and see if my low honey production was based on my bees or more the location of my bees. If location is the only thing I change, it should tell me something. If I don't get to it this year, there is always next year. If I were to add early feed or treat or something else at the same time, I may not know what caused any change.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> In my mind this could be an either way thing. I try and stop swarming. When not successful, I try and catch the swarms whether prime or secondary. I think it would be best to split from a hive that is hitting all your marks and not just rely on one that swarms cause it is healthy enough to swarm.


GWW:

Great feedback. To clarify, I wasn't advocating for taking no steps to mitigate one's hived colonies from swarming nor suggesting that splits are detrimental, but wondering if hiving outside swarms was a good primary goal for replacing overwintering losses instead of only relying on splitting the survivors.

This question was posed in response to the anecdotal feedback that some TF beekeepers have good success for many years, only to suffer increasing losses year-over-year while still splitting the survivors.

It is a bit of a conceptual question, but as an example- if the hobby beekeeper has 10 hives and loses 4 over the winter, they might replace their losses by splitting their 4 best hives, attempting to catch 4 outside swarms, or some combination thereof.

Just wondering outloud if a periodic introduction of outside adapted genetics might be helpful in combating the apparent diminishing resistance seen in these more established apiaries. 

Obviously introduces a wildcard in terms of traits but seems to offer some hedge against performance creep.


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## gww

russ
I have had swarm traps out before I even got bees. I have 16 traps out and over a four year period have caught about 5 swarms in traps. It is easy to say and I am always happy to get one but don't get that many and can not count on getting any in any particular year.

I don't turn them down and it is how I got all but one of my bees not counting splits and my hives swarming.

I hear the big numbers others get but here, I would not count swarm traps as a guarantee.
I do not worry about what I bring into my apiary. Even catching swarms, it could be some other bee keepers bees from a managed box. I am now too lazy to do cut outs which might be a surer way to tell what you are getting. I just take them and if they live, which they have, I count myself lucky.
Cheers
gww


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GWW:....... they might replace their losses ...... attempting to catch 4 outside swarms, or some combination thereof...


I would not count any randomly caught swarms as "loss replacement" in TF project context.
Keep your apples away from your oranges.

I would keep those swarms in different department from your TF efforts for a number of reasons (let us call it just that - "swarm" department).
The "swarm" department is to be used for 1) support resources (mainly honey and comb generation) as well as 2) keeping the captured swarms in quarantine for as long as needed to show their worth (or letting them to die out).
For now none of my own randomly caught swarms demonstrated their worth.
They all died out (part of living in an "almond" bee slum maybe).
At the very beginning I had depend on the captured swarms entirely (have to have a slot to drop the outside queen into).
Not anymore; I do not not depend on the swarms anymore.

This year I even keep all the captured swarms on physically separate bee yards away from my TF experimentation.
Just so it happened, but now I like the setup and will continue the practice - got two quarantine bee yards for the random swarm keeping. 

IMO, the "TF" department losses can only be recovered by the splits managed within the "TF" department stock.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I just take them and if they live, which they have, I count myself lucky.


Great points, GWW. As I mentioned, this was more of a conceptual question related to what should the TF beekeeper's response be to decreasing resistance. I was simply questioning if a TF apiary should ever "grow out" of being in swarm trapping mode.

I'm like you- I don't know enough to make any declarative statements. My immediate goal is to catch as many swarms I can without prejudice and then let them sink or swim, making any further decisions based on the initial results.

Thank you again for your help and advice. 

Russ


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I would not count any randomly caught swarms as "loss replacement" in TF project context.
> 
> IMO, the "TF" department losses can only be recovered by the splits managed within the "TF" department stock.


GregV:

Thank you for your excellent reply. I cannot refute any of your logic.

Just playing devil's advocate, this question was posed in the context of increasing losses in a TF apiary after several years of success. In my mind, this suggests that they started with at least a modicum of tolerance and this trait was either watered-down or did not properly adapt to a new threat in the apiary.

This is what made me wonder if regular introductions of locally adapted unmanaged stock might be a prudent function of a TF apiary approach.

As always, I appreciate and welcome your input.

Russ


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## gww

Russ
I get the concept. I wonder though if it is not kinda normal to have cycles good and bad. I do not see many hive beetles but see a few. I looked at a twenty year guys hive that lives close to me. In feb, one of his hives was just loaded. Something was probably wrong with that hive as he had a few more hives not like that. I do wonder though if just having bees in one place long term does not also help the hive beetle by providing a steady environment. 

I have heard that people that have gotten bees have had their forage area improve over the years just by having bees on it.

If nature is a war, I can see little tilts happening. A virus could mutate to a little stronger and then later be set back by being strong enough to kill its host. This would not mean that the bees were worse but that the virus was. I read a guy that treats that lost 80 percent one year. The year before was fine and the next year after is fine. It seems to happen with animals like deer where something bad comes around for a bit and then recedes. Sometimes the virus recedes on its own or sometimes it dies with the host.

We know stuff like this hits managed animals and usually there is some kind of response to address it from medicine to destruction. It happens in the wild and has to be over come in other ways. Sometimes, like the american chestnut, it goes really bad. Other times, it is just a phase that passes.

Managed or otherwise, you can face disaster in many ways. The adjustment to disaster can take many forms also and few can claim pure rightness. There is still discussion overseas on whether it was a good or bad thing to destroy so many cows when mad cow disease showed up. I am not sure if the jury is still not out on it.

So in the end, you pick your poison and live with the outcome and make whatever adjustments you have to as you learn more.

Every year will not be the same in my opinion and what happens elsewhere proves the possibilities but also leaves other possibilities happening elsewhere at the same time. 

What happens to you is what you have to adjust to. There are too many stories out there to not put some belief in the fact that it does happen but just like the guy who can not keep bees alive even one year if he does not treat yet others like square make 8 years.

Mites used to not be on bees and tracheal mites used to cause a bunch of damage but don't so much now. Every thing can be a little fluid.
Agriculture is sorta like that over all.
Just my opinion though. I read a lot but "know" very little.
Cheers
gww


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## squarepeg

gww said:


> Agriculture is sorta like that over all.


exactly. the other thing gww suggested and what makes perfect sense is that if you can find someone near you successfully managing bees off treatments then get some bees and advice from them.

if there is one generalization to be made with respect to beekeeping it is that one should be cautious about making generalizations, even jwchesnut.

fusion power has made what i feel is a rather astute observation in that his colonies follow the 1/3 1/3 1/3 rule; meaning that a third of his colonies perform exceptionally well, another third about average, and the remaining third not so spectacular.

i observe the same here, and i've often wondered how a review of my stock by someone getting a nuc or two from me would vary depending on which third those nucs fell into.

it's not uncommon to see queen daughters from exceptional colonies do poorly and vice versa.

there are just too many variables.

russ, you strike me as an engineer-type person. when building a bridge for example one does the math, takes measures to be certain the construction is executed properly, and goes forward with virtually 100% expectation that the bridge will function as designed.

with bees that's just not possible. there are too many variables beyond one's control. 

with genetics we are at the mercy of the local metapopulation. with weather we at the mercy of random fluctuations. with environmental toxins we at the mercy of whatever happens to out there. even the mating process is subject to birds and other predators looking for an easy meal.

this is why i suggested you get your hive count up as high as your budget and time allow. in this way you can do your best to 'beat the odds' by having enough in the upper 2/3rds to get you a decent return on investment.

it's also why i encouraged you to boldly experiment and try things to see what happens for you with your bees in your location.


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## msl

> So it sounds as if the more basic question is whether one has a predominance of adapted genetic material in their area. If so, the means of propagating one's yard may be less critical.
> 
> Conversely, if one lives in an area which is not dominated by adapted material, your chance of success in a TF regime will be suspect at best, and likely highly-influenced by one's propagation method.


yes and no.... 
but need to tie in GWW here 


> I understand the stacking of the deck in breeding for resistance but also wonder if the deck is not stacked just as hard with how things naturally happen in nature. If nature breeds to average,


We do know is in a wild stable population of bees... 50-66% losses being the norm..mother nature is a mean SOB she culls hard to maintain the advrage 

In nature 77% of the swarms don't make spring (Seeley 2017) . if beekeepers took that kind of losses swam chasing would be far less talked about.. But swarms do well for most beekepers
So there for the act of putting bees in a box can careing for them props up weak genetics.
Rather then being culled and only the top 23% of swarms being allowed to propagate, this weak genetics stock is sending out poor drones and splits/swarms as well, diluting the good gean pool. 
keep that in your head, to matain the stock 77% of the off spring is culled, what is left is good stock, and will often go on for a few years, But not good enough to throw offspring with a very high survival rate..... nature is lazy, it does just enuf to get by because every trait has a cost. 

the nature example shows you what propagating from "what lived" does
so the way to have less losses then the natural advrage comes in 2 forms
Use your skills as a beekeeper to tend to your bees (prop up)
Propagate from higher performing stock will have offspring with a higher rate of survival, and cull (requeen) lesser stocks.

now I am not saying there aren't places where the wild drone stock, being so highly selected and plentfull, won't provide you with good success if your a good beekeeper. But that's not the case for most, most need/want to shift thier stock...


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## gww

msl


> Propagate from higher performing stock will have offspring with a higher rate of survival, and cull (requeen) lesser stocks.


I don't do it but do agree wholeheartedly with this quote.

On the rest, even though the numbers of swarms that die might be 70 percent, that does not mean it was weak bees dying. The swarm heads out into a stacked deck of the unknown. The nice comfortable hive that is already in a perfect environment may actually be the weaker of the two. Nature may be lazy by just making the bees able to over produce their environment so that it is easy to recover if there is something worse then normal happen.

It is probably a little of both views on the above (mine and yours). Our problem is not really knowing what is strong and what is really weak. So we just have to look at the things we gauge and hope we are correct.
Cheers
gww

Ps I don't mind having a few non-performing hives about even knowing bees breed to average. I do want to make new hives from my best even knowing the others may drag me down a bit in the big picture. They may have some strength that they also add to the group and so until I decide what is most important, I sorta let them run their course. I may some day want to improve my honey or my bee making and then can decide more but for now, life alone is a plus enough for me.


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## msl

> even though the numbers of swarms that die might be 70 percent, that does not mean it was weak bees dying


it means they were not strong enough to survive, they were negatively selected by nature. 

Perhaps in a different spot or a different year they might have done better. But this IS how adaption/selection works, the strong survive to pass on their genetics, the weak don't.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Managed or otherwise, you can face disaster in many ways. The adjustment to disaster can take many forms also and few can claim pure rightness.


GWW:

I really appreciate your thoughtful reply, and having grown up on a ranch, your tie-in to other aspects of agriculture and animal husbandry make perfect intuitive sense to me. It is with this perspective that I've learned that diversity is one tool to minimize complete losses, and it seems that this approach may be prudent in beekeeping as well.

Frankly, the discussion about systematic replacement of losses is academic to me at this point- I simply thought that the discussion about how to avoid (or at least mitigate) catastrophic loss relative to this question of an apparent loss of resistance was interesting and served as an opportunity to learn how others might deal with it as an important bit of knowledge for possible future use.

I really do appreciate your helpful attitude and willingness to share your expertise. I am grateful.

Russ


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> with bees that's just not possible. there are too many variables beyond one's control.
> 
> it's also why i encouraged you to boldly experiment and try things to see what happens for you with your bees in your location.


Squarepeg:

Thank you for your reply- you are always the voice of reason. I am guilty as charged of over-analyzing things, so I do appreciate your reminder to focus on the fundamentals.

My goal (based on your sound advice) is to grow the apiary as quickly as my time and woodenware will allow and then let the chips fall where they may...

The plan itself is profoundly simple- now I am struggling over execution.

Thanks again for all the help and advice. I really do appreciate it. 

Russ


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## gww

russ
I am only in my third winter and so not an expert compared to any that have participated on this thread. I did grow up on a 80 acre farm from about 11 years old and we had the horse, milk cow, seven other cows, bull, bucket calves and some sows to raise feeder pigs from. Hobby farm to hobby bees.

I also play a little devils advocate on subjects to see if others can keep me thinking. I do tell the truth of my thinking now but am willing to listen (and discuss/argue) to others in the hopes of being smarter tomorrow then I am today. Still, I am only in the middle of my third winter. Put that in my resume when you think of any advice I may be giving.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> In nature 77% of the swarms don't make spring (Seeley 2017) . if beekeepers took that kind of losses swam chasing would be far less talked about.. But swarms do well for most beekepers. So there for the act of putting bees in a box can careing for them props up weak genetics.


MSL:

Thank you again for your helpful and thought-provoking response. It was again quite heavy, so I had to mull over it a bit.

So at the risk of greatly oversimplifying things or otherwise putting words in your mouth, is it a fact that the single action of hiving a swarm into a managed setting greatly increases their odds of survival?

I can certainly understand how any intervention (i.e. feeding, giving brood, etc.) changes the survival dynamic, but do non-supported swarms in a Langstroth hive have significantly greater odds of survival versus their bee tree cohorts?

Again, if I've missed the foundational crux of your message, please do not hesitate to set me straight.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Put that in my resume when you think of any advice I may be giving.


Humility may be one of the greatest assets on anyone's resume, and it seems to be ever in short-supply. I really do appreciate the helpful and learning-oriented nature of this community, and I look forward to being able to contribute in a more meaningful way in the future.

Thanks again for all your help, and have a great evening. 

Russ


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## msl

> is it a fact that the single action of hiving a swarm into a managed setting greatly increases their odds of survival?


Well we know the loss rate of NY swarms from Seeley, 77% 
My personal experience has seen a much lower loss rate, and I think most peoples experience has been similar
According to the BIP (BYBK, 5 year aravrage, total loss) when starting new colonlys swarms have the 2nd lowest loss rate, only beat by making your own splits.


> do non-supported swarms in a Langstroth hive have significantly greater odds of survival versus their bee tree cohorts?


I cant see why they would, its a box with the beekeeper in mind. but have no data. My money would be on management being the difference, as it usually is with most things bee


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## Riverderwent

Litsinger said:


> Knowing you have had extensive multi-year experience with local stock, I am curious if you have you observed differences between hived swarm stock and intentionally-propegated stock in terms of resistance?
> 
> Thank you for your advice and input.
> 
> Russ


Yes. A remarkable thing, particularly in light of what we think we know about honey bee mating, is that, where I am, there appears to be not one honey bee gene pool, but two or maybe three overlapping puddles occupying the same geography. It’s not a melting pot, but rather, separate serving dishes.

Open bred splits here trend toward feral genetics and survive well for me without treatment. That is, of course, if her highness dodges the dragonflies and makes it safely back from her maiden adventures. My guess is that feral hives here put more of their procreation bets on drones instead of swarms. Maybe it’s less risky. And they can make as many drones as they want. There are a lot less nooks in a managed hive to hide a drone cell from “the suits.” 

Our swarms, on the other hand, have more of a tendency to be high bred and sharp lined, yeller Italians. But not always. They’re productive and pretty but can die if you tap on the box and say, “Varroa here; anybody home?” Again, not always. But the odds are better here with an open bred split than with swarms. Now, my favorite is still a gnarly old cutout, but that’s a lot of work.

They tell me Italians bees tend to rob. And die. From mites. These days, not robbing may be a survival technique of true survivor bees. The near feral, sport utility bees that live in my boxes keep their mandibles in their own pockets. And apparently don’t cotton to robbers. I don’t own a robbing screen. My entrances are ⅜” tall and only eight frames wide. I don’t see robbing. And if you ever saw me sloppin’ around pulling supers you’d learn to respect the native integrity of these little mutts.


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## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> *As I have read everyone's feedback, it seems that the first and most-foundational step* is to see what sort of stock from the area one has to work with, and to make your propegation decisions based on that reality.


?? 
After all these advise ?

Happy New Year Litsinger!



Juhani Lunden said:


> The most important thing is to get bees (queens) from an already long term TF apiary.
> It will save you about 10 years of struggling.





GregV said:


> I am going to say a heresy now - there are pretty much *no *local stocks in the North America.
> 
> Unfortunately, the current status of cross-county bee moving and selling is really screwing up chances for the US local bees to develop.





msl said:


> rember local adaption means the stock does better in its native environment then any were elce... but that dosn't mean stock form some were elce could do better then the adapted stock....





gww said:


> The swarms I have caught may well be from package bees. I don't know of any commercials around me. From the bee club meetings (very small club and I seldom attend) most around here get packages and nucs when getting their first bees. The nucs and such may be from keepers in this state or surrounding state but not with in 50 miles of me. From those meetings, the new guys lose lots of their first hives. I do have a neighbor (couple of miles) that lost his first two or three hives. I know another guy in a ten mile that lost his first four. I here at the club of several losing hives. They guy I got mine from had like five and lost two (he is a non treater) but the three left made 400 lbs of honey.
> 
> So I believe the majority of bee keepers around me are getting packages but also that I live in the country and so two mile from me will not have many other beekeepers.
> 
> The genetics of my area has to be impacted by commercial bees cause that is what every one gets but is spread out and does not have commercial operators or migratory bee keepers that I know about.





squarepeg said:


> even worse, after a generation or two the bees will have pretty much reverted back to whatever it is that you have around up there.





Litsinger said:


> This morning I was reading a post on a Treatment-Free group I belong to, and a 10+ year TF beekeeper was asking for suggestions as to why they had been able to successfully manage their hives (approximately 16) treatment free for 8 years with good overwintering success until the last two years, in which the mites have prevailed (identified high levels of DWV) and most of their hives have now succumbed.





GregV said:


> I think it is a very good idea to periodically bring in desired queens from outside.
> It maybe it is a mandatory component if the population is dominated by "almond" bees.





JWChesnut said:


> T
> So the "catch local swarms" guru is rebuilding losses in his apiary by installing packages. You have been snookered.





msl said:


> now I am not saying there aren't places where the wild drone stock, being so highly selected and plentfull, won't provide you with good success if your a good beekeeper. But that's not the case for most, most need/want to shift thier stock...


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> My money would be on management being the difference, as it usually is with most things bee


MSL:

Thank you for your reply and for clarifying. I can certainly appreciate that management has an outsized impact on survival. By extension, the best way to evaluate a hived swarm might be by benign neglect?

The other takeaway from this discussion is I need not be afraid of making splits from proven hived stock.

Thank you again for your help and input. I sincerely appreciate it.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> where I am, there appears to be not one honey bee gene pool, but two or maybe three overlapping puddles occupying the same geography. It’s not a melting pot, but rather, separate serving dishes.
> 
> Open bred splits here trend toward feral genetics and survive well for me without treatment.
> 
> ... the odds are better here with an open bred split than with swarms. Now, my favorite is still a gnarly old cutout, but that’s a lot of work.


David:

Thank you for the excellent reply- there are loads of practical advice in there.

So if I understand you correctly, your experience appears to mirror what Dr. Seeley found in the Arnot Forest regarding unmanaged genetics surviving without significant influence from local managed stock.

I also read-into your reply that you might advise increasing your colony numbers in a TF apiary in the following order of priority:

1. Multiyear survivor cut-outs/trap-outs.

2. Splitting hived survivors.

3. Catching swarms.

Again, I really appreciate your help and advice, and I've learned a ton by reading your chronicles.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> After all these advise ?


Juhani:

Thank you for your reply. I stand guilty as charged of cherry-picking the feedback I've received and my own limited experience in deciding to first evaluate my local stock for suitability rather than initially bringing in outside genetics.

In doing so, I am freely acknowledging that the result might be profound failure.

If my initial efforts crash-and-burn, my first step will be to contact you and GregV, confess the error of my ways and beg you both to give me advice as to what I need to do next.

In all seriousness, I really do value your help and input, and respect what you have accomplished. You have significant experience and success in the TF paradigm and I want to learn everything I can from you.

Thank you again for all your help and the gentle reminder that I need not get ahead of myself. 

Have a great day. 

Russ


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## Riverderwent

Litsinger said:


> So if I understand you correctly, your experience appears to mirror what Dr. Seeley found in the Arnot Forest regarding unmanaged genetics surviving without significant influence from local managed stock.


Yes. I’m sure he feels validated.



> I also read-into your reply that you might advise increasing your colony numbers in a TF apiary in the following order of priority:
> 
> 1. Multiyear survivor cut-outs/trap-outs.
> 
> 2. Splitting hived survivors.
> 
> 3. Catching swarms.


Yes, but. Some cutouts that I do won’t get rehived successfully and will be lost shortly after rehiving. Occasionally, the queen in a split won’t make it back. And some swarms won’t be feral/survivors. The odds are best with a split, but I like bringing new survivor genes into the local drone congregation area with cutouts. And the swarms tend to be good producers if they make it. Here, it’s like gumbo. A little of this and a little of that.


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## CLSranch

I have a thought on the feral colonies and their swarms. If 1 good feral colony has a good start then cast a swarm, next both do well and cast another swarm making the original colony and the swarm smaller and less able to cluster to stay warm over the winter. If a beek gets the 1st swarm cast and simply gives them another box to reduce the chance swarming they should grow well into the end of the flow then be of size to handle the winter.

That would change 1 swarm into making it, vs 2 dying. Nothing to do with their disease resistance, ability to winter, or any weak trait.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ... to contact ... GregV, confess the error of my ways and beg you both to give me advice as to what I need to do next.
> Russ


Don't worry about it and just do what you do.
And do NOT apologize.
Go and get some bees however you do it.
Once you have some bees (any bees), then magically you have lots of options opened to you.
No bees - no options.
It is cool - these are your bees and you are free to butcher them as you wish.
Seriously, fell free to butcher the bees.
All the cries over every single dead hive are just nonsense, IMO, as if they lost their every favorite puppy.
These are insects, not a puppy.

I have not bought a single package/nuc for as long as I live in US (long time now).
Like ever.
Why? 
Because I am a cheapskate and a swarm trapper and free bees are all around for taking. 
Really helps me.
Really hurts the local "almond" bee sellers when I brag about it. 
Well, too bad. 
Hehehe.

PS: I have always been supportive of the local bee sellers; still am - there are very few as it is.


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## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> Here, it’s like gumbo. A little of this and a little of that.


David:

Thank you for your helpful reply. You have a good sense of humor and a good writing style- you should seriously write a book!

My plan is to go with 'd' All the Above and hope that the resultant gumbo is half as good as yours.

Thank you again for your help.

Russ


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## Litsinger

CLSranch said:


> If a beek gets the 1st swarm cast and simply gives them another box to reduce the chance swarming they should grow well into the end of the flow then be of size to handle the winter.


CLSranch:

I am really glad you chimed-in. Please always feel welcome to share your thoughts.

While I will defer widely to the more-experienced beekeepers on this forum, I expect that implicit to most beekeeper's efforts is the eventual harvest of a little surplus honey.

With that goal in mind, the objective is to minimize swarming as much as practical with their established colonies to maximize honey production.

Additionally, if I've learned one thing about bees is that they don't always follow the 'rules' so sometimes despite your best efforts (insert ubiquitous Walt Wright reference here) a swarm might be cast at an inopportune time, especially if one is not able to be as diligent as they would like with their management efforts due to time-constraints.

That said, I'm with you- I would rather hive an early season prime swarm that then has the opportunity to get successfully set-up for winter rather than a late season swarm which needs significant intervention to have any hope of making it.

So, here is how I understand that the successful beekeepers accomplish this:

1. If you catch an early-season prime swarm, keep well-ahead of them in adding volume to the hive to accommodate their desire to expand, but not too much volume or you will have other problems on your hands (like small hive beetles- ask me how I know 🙂.

2. If you have an overwintered colony, do whatever manipulations are seasonally-appropriate to minimize their ability to complete swarm preparations (i.e. Checkerboarding).

3. If all else fails and they are prepared to swarm, execute a false swarm by making a split or a few nucs out of the swarm cells. 

Otherwise, there are some who keep bees in a treatment-free fashion who are not overly focused on surplus honey production so they don't discourage early-season reproductive swarms as a means to introduce a brood break and send new genetic material into the surrounding area.

So, in conclusion I think your idea is sound- add the volume to stay ahead of the colony, making their decision not to swarm easy, particularly avoiding those fall swarms.

Please always feel welcome to share.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Don't worry about it and just do what you do.
> And do NOT apologize.


Thanks, GregV. I should clarify I wouldn't be apologizing to the bees but to you and Juhani for not following your plan from the start 😉.

I really do appreciate all your help.

Have a great evening.

Russ


----------



## gww

russ
I don't know who is right but I took CLSranchers post as a comment on natural selection and whether 77 percent of swarms dying in the wild meant that they were weaker.
Cheers
gww


----------



## msl

Litsinger said:


> I can certainly appreciate that management has an outsized impact on survival. By extension, the best way to evaluate a hived swarm might be by benign neglect?
> .


That is the bad logic trap many fall in to, that I have been trying to get you to avoid...
your self conformation filter is on high

lets try a different tract
Take a look at the numbers I have provided you the last 2 days, and predict what would happen. For the sake of argument lets say the bees do just as well as in a tree

what would the expected surival rate of the swarm be, and more inportaintaily, what would the expected survival rate of the swarms off spring be should the swarm over winter.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> russ
> I don't know who is right but I took CLSranchers post as a comment on natural selection and whether 77 percent of swarms dying in the wild meant that they were weaker.
> Cheers
> gww


GWW:

Rereading CLSranchers post in light of your comment, you are probably right. My sincerest apologies for misinterpreting the comment.

So if I understand correctly, CLSrancher's comment suggests that by adding space to an early season hived swarm minimizes their their need to subsequently swarm again later in the season, yielding one stronger colony in a larger volume rather than two weak colonies in smaller volumes.

Again, my apologies- thank you for clarifying this.

Russ


----------



## gww

russ
CLSrancher may correct me but I took it to refer to mls saying that 77 percent of wild swarms die but a beekeeper keeps those alive causing a weaker breeding pool. I took the opposite position that a swarm may not be weaker and may be dying due to having to face the elements. It may die due to what it runs into and not because it was a weaker bee.
I may not be able to read english though.
Cheers
gww
Ps However, the end result is what you said in your last post.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> That is the bad logic trap many fall in to, that I have been trying to get you to avoid...
> your self conformation filter is on high


MSL:

I sincerely appreciate your honesty and I no doubt have blind spots in my thinking. At your advice, I went back and carefully reread your posts from the last two days. Please correct me if I am wrong, but here is how I interpret your suggested approach:

1. Graft from the top 2% of your stock and requeen the bottom 70% of your stock. 

2. Repeat this process every year or two.

Assuming this is correct, may I ask you to define:

1. What metric/matrices do you employ to define what your top 2% hives are?

2. How large of a sample size (i.e. number of colonies) would one need to have enough discritization to confidently identify your top performers against those who would represent the bottom 70%?

3. How does one establish a baseline? (I think this is the question I have been transfixed on). Assuming one catches swarms as their initial method of stocking their apiary, I am assuming that the first year or two would be spent simply observing the stock to hopefully identify the traits and determining what to breed from?

Thanks again for all your help. I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> CLSrancher may correct me but I took it to refer to mls saying that 77 percent of wild swarms die but a beekeeper keeps those alive causing a weaker breeding pool.


GWW:

You may very well be right- let's hope that CLSRancher will set us straight.

Have a great evening. 

Russ


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## msl

Answer the 2 questions at the end of post 209


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> Answer the 2 questions at the end of post 209


MSL:

I'll gladly give it a whirl- here goes:

Q. what would the expected survival rate of the swarm be?

A. If we assume Dr. Seeley's figures are both accurate and apply equally in all areas, we would expect approximately 20% of the swarms one hives would survive (assuming no augmenting management by the beekeeper).

Q. and more importantly, what would the expected survival rate of the swarms off spring be should the swarm over winter?

A. If we assume FusionPower's observation is generally accurate, 1/3 of the open-mated offspring will have the goods to be successful.

I am not sure I've passed the quiz, so hopefully this is the practice round...


----------



## CLSranch

I see I created quite the misunderstanding.

I was thinking 1 (just my opinion) that the overwintered feral colonies are probably NOT weaker and in a treatment free hive environment they are dealing with very similar pressures.
Just simple little changes just as adding space to make them not swarm can not bee done in a tree.
Therefore statistics show 2 feral colonies dying I say the same swarm NOT because they are weaker or the beek treated, feed etc... would survive. 

2 ferals are great meteorologist and can store lots of honey before a bad winter, BUT also will over divide/swarm in a good summer fall. 


So I was suggesting they are stronger and under any slight change their would not be a 77% death rate.


I started looking into bee's after having a colony in a tree in the back yard of a house I moved into that stayed for years (without me or anyone else ever getting stung) with ant problems, no feed from me and just full feral. Until the swarm traps didn't work I was going with feral only bee's. I will still use the swarm traps to acquire more colonies.

P.S. they are not in the tree anymore.


----------



## CLSranch

Also I'm sick and very tire right now.
I hope I cleared up my previous thoughts not made it more misunderstanding.:s


----------



## gww

CLSrancher
Hope you feel better soon.
Cheers
gww


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## CLSranch

Thank you gww. I was getting better then I worked outside in 30F with 20mph wind for 10hrs today. It was almost 60f yesterday at home and here where I'm working. 
Early bedtime tonight.


----------



## msl

good on #1
What you missing on #2 is FP manages his bees, it this thought experiment we are talking about puting feral bees in a box and leaving to there own devices, there for we expect the off spring to have the same survival rate and the stock its coming form. So his 30% isn't far off seeleys 23%... but theirs a lot of space between just beeing alive and being successful.

so based on some data you have found, you have formed hypothesis. The next ting I do is search the comparabullls.
well Ross Conrad and Seeley just finished a study,


> Control (C) Group: Of the 15 colonies initially established May 2016, 14 colonies (93.3%) were alive and healthy heading into the winter of 2016-2017, 5 colonies were alive in April of 2017 (33.3%)


Of the managed bees they didn't treat they lost 66% the 1st winter... Great says the TF guru, you need to split them like mad, Survivor stock and all
but wait


> all 5 died over the winter of 2017-2018 and none survived into the spring of 2018. (0.0%)


https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/fne16-840/
nope they wern't resistant after all, and there offspring would be no better. You might gain a year, maby 2 by splitting heavy to get your numbers up...and distributing your mite load in the processes, giving you the illusion your making progress, and then likey a major wipe out... and no real gains. 






then we go to the Gotland Experiment
Not just the decline of the started hives, but look at the swarm survival rates... 2001, 17 swarms from 2 year "Survivor stock" , and they all died..
But those weren't ferals some may say 
lucky for us Seeley (2017) has done that experment... swarms of his famous Ferals were placed in a lang and left to there own devices








_Results from a 6-year program of inspecting 22 hives occupied by simulated wild colonies. Inspections made in early May, late July, and late September. Colored bars indicate type of colony, as in Fig. 2. Colored circles show colors of paint marks on queens. A question mark indicates a time when queen was not found, probably because a virgin queen. Numbers indicate how many Varroa mites were caught on sticky board in 48 h. _
Blue is instaled that year, green alive, red dead

Now take a hard look... some thing is amiss... Seems the shear act of puting the hives in a lang more then dubbled the survival rate ! Seems counter intuitive with all the anti lang internet scuttle butt..
But when you read the methods, we see the swarms were instaled in single deep hives with 8 drawn frames. That's a strong jump start.

I encourage you to read the full study as there are many good bits there, but sense you asked about selection I want to point you to this gem 








_Figure 4.
Top: distribution of 177 mite-drop counts made during the thrice annual inspections of 35 simulated wild colonies. Bottom: colony mortality in relation to the mite-drop count of the previous inspection.
Figure 4 shows the distribution of these counts. Most (141 out of 177 = 80%) were low (0–29 mites/48 h), but some were high. Colonies with mite-drop counts below 30 mites/48 h had nearly zero mortality, but colonies with mite-drop counts above 30 mites/48 h suffered higher mortality, reaching 100% when count was 90+ mites/48 h._

EDIT... I should add 
_"scientists have not been able to tell anyone how to select a breeder queen, or even how to breed for honey production, so don't imagine you can"_ Steve Taber Breeding Super Bees
I can't tell you how to select *your* stock, just the mechanisms at work when it comes to shifting a trait in your population. 

My point is just why you shouldn't just split your "survivor" hives in the spring, not enuff negtive slection, and way to little positive slection


----------



## Litsinger

CLSranch said:


> I see I created quite the misunderstanding.


CLSranch:

Thank you for the update. I sincerely appreciate you clarifying. Once GWW offered his hypothesis of your comment, it made a lot of sense to me.

It makes sense to me that hived swarms in an appropriately managed apiary would have quite an advantage toward survival, particularly in regards to the necessary volume to build-up significant winter bees and stores to overwinter successfully.

I really do appreciate you sharing your thoughts, and I do hope you get to feeling better soon.

Russ


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> My point is just why you shouldn't just split your "survivor" hives in the spring, not enuff negtive slection, and way to little positive slection


MSL:

Thank you for the detailed and helpful reply. Succinctly, I concur with you regarding being circumspect about splitting survivor stock. While I have no practical experience in this regard, your excellent information corroborates my intuitive fear, namely- even if a colony overwinters successfully, this in-and-of-itself does not substantiate their long-term varroa resistance. While I am uncertain how many years are required before one could confidently say they had "survivor" stock, this evaluation helps distill my focus on hived swarms.

Here is my thought, crude as it is:

Overwintered colonies are represented by genetics which may not be fully-appreciated for several years.

Captured swarms on the other hand are represented by unknown genetics, which are also unknown but are likely different from the overwintered colonies (particularly if one traps outside of their home apiary).

So, my thought is that your best-bet to find resistant genetics in your area is to capture as many swarms as you can and then submit them to the 'acid test' by providing them little to no management support for several years.

While there are no-doubt many holes in my logic, the idea is that after 4 - 5 years one might have some reason to hope and a bit of confidence that they had genetics worthy of propagation.

Additionally, I read Seeley's feral report with great interest. I like you keyed-into the fact that in general the colonies with the lowest mite counts fared the best. This seems to be at least a significant part of the resistance picture:



Litsinger said:


> Following-up on relative mite drop numbers, I recently read in Dr. Seeley's 2017 research publication, "Life-history traits of wild honey bee colonies living in forests around Ithaca, NY, USA" the following: "Colonies with mite-drop counts below 30 mites/48 h had nearly zero mortality, but colonies above 30 mites/48 h suffered higher mortality, reaching 100% when count was 90+ mites/48 h." Has anyone conducted periodic 48 h mite counts in a treatment-free paradigm that were significantly above these thresholds in colonies that continued to thrive and overwinter successfully or does this research suggest that there are relative mite drop thresholds at various seasonal development periods that might be predictive of future colony demise? Figure 3 in the publication shows the 6-year results of tri-annual (Pre-Swarm Spring, Post-Primary Swarm Summer and Post-Secondary Swarm Fall) 48 hour mite drop measurements of 23 colony sites and typically show the prototypical relatively low mite figures in Spring, rising through the year and reaching critical mass in the Fall on the hives that ultimately did not overwinter. By my count, there were only two colonies in the study that suffered Winter demise with Fall mite counts below 30, and eight colonies with Fall mite counts above 35 which overwintered successfully (the highest being 79). There are obviously many other factors to consider in this analysis, but does this research square with what everyone is observing in their apiaries?


Thank you again for all your help and advice- I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

As mentioned in a previous post, I appreciate the IPM boards if for no other reason than to be able to pull the trays out and get a glimpse into the inner-workings of a colony.

This afternoon I pulled the trays on both of the colonies that are overwintering at present and noticed the following:

Hive #3- Three dozen dead bees on the screen and approximately 200 mites in the tray.

Hive #4- No dead bees on the screen and approximately 315 mites in the tray (along with a fair number of SHB).

These trays were installed twenty days ago. 

While I have no history to compare to, it is interesting to see how these two hives compare side-by-side. I will continue to monitor these values to establish a baseline.


----------



## squarepeg

any thoughts as to the origins of your caught swarms russ?


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## msl

> So, my thought is that your best-bet to find resistant genetics in your area is to capture as many swarms as you can and then submit them to the 'acid test' by providing them little to no management support for several years.


:kn: 
I have shone you what will likey happen in such a program, yet you come back with a standard internet TF answer that has failed the vast majority who have tried it .


> Overwintered colonies are represented by genetics which may not be fully-appreciated for several years.


no...some times it just takes a the mites/virus more then then a year to kill a hive.
and don't forget the hive changes genetics yearly or so.... be a bummer to lose a great queen to a swarm while you asid test them..

If only there was a way to empirically test hive performance............:waiting:

that being said, you have 2 hives, if they both make it you will need to be making splits off each to get your numbers up


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> any thoughts as to the origins of your caught swarms russ?


Squarepeg:

It is hard to say- there is only one beekeeper that I am aware of within a 2 mile radius of our home. That said, our place backs-up to Camp Creek, which is a wild, woodsy tributary for the Clark's River. So my hope is that they are feral-ish.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> I have shone you what will likey happen in such a program, yet you come back with a standard internet TF answer that has failed the vast majority who have tried it .


MSL:

My sincerest apologies- I am not trying to be difficult and I'll admit that I am slow on the uptake sometimes.

Maybe the missing ingredient is where does one start? I think I have a handle on your recommendation to graft from your top 2% colonies, but where do these top 2% come from?

Assuming one starts with hived swarms, how does one go about evaluating them for long-term viability without first observing them for a couple of seasons to determine their worth?

In a previous post I understood that you consider grafting from a colony that has overwintered twice. What does one do until they have colonies in-place that meet this threshold?

Thanks again for your help and for being patient with me.

Russ


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## squarepeg

understood russ. 

i'm not familiar with how to interpret mite drop numbers over time, but it sounds like the bees may be doing a decent job of removing mites.

do you happen to have access to a microscope to inspect the dead mites for mauling?


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> i'm not familiar with how to interpret mite drop numbers over time, but it sounds like the bees may be doing a decent job of removing mites.
> 
> do you happen to have access to a microscope to inspect the dead mites for mauling?


Thanks, Squarepeg. I too am unaware of what these mite drop numbers mean long-term, though it is interesting to compare them across colonies at the same point in the season.

I hadn't considered looking at the mites under a microscope- I will make a point to do this!

Great advice as always- thank you for your help.

Russ


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## squarepeg

specifically you are looking for damage to their appendages or 'ankle biting', also referred to as 'mite mauling'. 

i'm guessing a google search will turn up a description and some images of that.


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> specifically you are looking for damage to their appendages or 'ankle biting', also referred to as 'mite mauling'.
> 
> i'm guessing a google search will turn up a description and some images of that.


Thank you, Squarepeg! I've read about this, but ironically have never even considered looking for it within my own yard.

Should I find anything interesting, I'll post it here.

Russ


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## msl

> Assuming one starts with hived swarms, how does one go about evaluating them for long-term viability without first observing them for a couple of seasons to determine their worth?





msl said:


> If only there was a way to empirically test hive performance............:waiting:





Litsinger said:


> "Colonies with mite-drop counts below 30 mites/48 h had nearly zero mortality, but colonies above 30 mites/48 h suffered higher mortality, reaching 100% when count was 90+ mites/48 h.


 Give these a read 
http://www.natuerliche-bienenhaltung.ch/pdf/Kefuss.pdf
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00218839.2016.1160709



Litsinger said:


> I've read about this, but ironically have never even considered looking for it within my own yard.


or, you could go buy some..... the chances of a guy with just a few hives finding the golden goose is very low, compare that to the head start of buying the end result of 22 years of selection for resistant bees, that have spent the last 9 years or so off treatments.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> specifically you are looking for damage to their appendages or 'ankle biting', also referred to as 'mite mauling'.
> 
> i'm guessing a google search will turn up a description and some images of that.


Well, here you go- I took a random sample of five mites from each hive and snapped photos at 20X multiplication. I am not sure I can interpret anything from the photos, but I could not interpret much from the professional images on Google either... Images are organized as follows (Hive #3 normal | Hive #3 blacklight | Hive #4 normal | Hive #4 blacklight:


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## squarepeg

i've never looked at any before russ, but if i had to guess i would say most of the mites look like some of their legs have been chewed off.


----------



## squarepeg

here ya go:

https://extension.entm.purdue.edu/beehive/pdf/2016_BC_Article.pdf


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Juhani Lunden said:


> The most important thing is to get bees (queens) from an already long term TF apiary.
> It will save you about 10 years of struggling.





msl said:


> or, you could go buy some..... the chances of a guy with just a few hives finding the golden goose is very low, compare that to the head start of buying the end result of 22 years of selection for resistant bees, that have spent the last 9 years or so off treatments.





msl said:


> I have shone you what will likey happen in such a program, yet you come back with a standard internet TF answer that has failed the vast majority who have tried it .


11 pages now, waste of time


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> Give these a read ... or, you could go buy some..... the chances of a guy with just a few hives finding the golden goose is very low, compare that to the head start of buying the end result of 22 years of selection for resistant bees, that have spent the last 9 years or so off treatments.


MSL:

Thank you much for your feedback and the Kefuss PPT and Report. I sincerely appreciate it, and I believe I am finally beginning to see the light. How about this for a middle ground?

1. Capture as much regional swarm stock as possible until all available woodenware is occupied.

2. Conduct 48-hour mite drops at least 4 times yearly on all hived stock.

3. Ascertain if any hived swarm stock exhibits the ability to maintain mite drops under 30 at each of these markers for at least two years.

4. If so, graft heavily from these colonies to stock apiary. Assuming there are multiple hives which exhibit this trait, maintain a few lines based on other desirable traits.

5. If not, invest in resistant breeder queens and start back at Step #2.

In this scenario, I can at least evaluate the local stock- and finding it lacking I will only have lost two years.

Thanks again for your help and feedback. I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


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## Litsinger

Thank you for the article, SP. I really enjoyed the read.

Have a great evening.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> 11 pages now, waste of time


Juhani:

Thank you for your feedback. I really do appreciate your help and advice, and I hope you know that I value your input and your opinion.

As I have stated before, I feel it is incumbent that I evaluate the local stock, but I am fully-prepared for it not to work out and I am sincerely interested in a path forward should it not work out. 

Along those lines, the input that you, MSL and GregV have provided has been most helpful and I am listening.

Thank you again for your help, and have a great day.

Russ


----------



## gww

russ
I totally agree with at least trying what you can get a hold of before jumping to the conclusion that the grass is always greener in somebody else's yard.

It might be greener somewhere else and you might be set back a year or two by trying but on the other hand, you won't know till you try.

I guess it depends upon your goals. Mls approaches it like a guy who wants to breed a super bee to sell others and get the ability to be commercial with them. Some that I see just want bees and don't want to treat and want enough that they don't have to keep buying bees.

Randy Oliver used a thousand hives and ended up with two hives that hit the mark he was measuring for. He is breeding for big picture. 

I, on the other hand, just want bees and to not buy bees and to get something from the bees. I do not want to make queens for others because my bees do good with out treatments. I might give a hive to somebody that came and got it if they wanted to do that but I don't want to start a business like that even if there was money in it. I want to decide how big I get and when and how much work I decide to do. That makes mine a loner endeavor rather then a community endeavor. The bees I have now will decide if that is going to work out. 

Mls is correct that it does not work like that for some but the people I have seen doing it and still having bees have been more like me and it just worked so far. I have heard and believe the horror stories of those it did not work that way for them. I think the ones that it did work that way for, just tried it and they got lucky. Still, you don't know if you are one of the lucky ones unless you give it a whirl.

So if it was just to have a bee operation, try it. If it is for the science of the thing and science that was intended to spread to others through business or grants, then you may need to dot every i and cross every T. 

You may have better then you can buy in your back yard already and you may not.

If they are good, you can do as you say and do the testing to find out weaknesses or prove out why, if you are so inclined.
If they are bad, you still may learn quite a bit just seeing the badness to compare to any change you decide you need.

If somebody close is having success, it is really good to find out why and copy the parts you like and have the energy for. However, if you know the odds and take your chances, you will still learn something and it might work. If you want to be boss of the community, it will be much more work.

This does not say that many points that the posters here who all have more experience then me do not have good and helpful points they are making. I respect and learn very much from them but in the end find that I am the one having to do the work and have only the skills I have for that work. I, like you, add things more slowly as I go cause I am (not like you probably) a slow guy.

I try and learn everything out there including treating but only implement things a little at a time so that I can measure what I am causing to the bees. Too many things at one time just confuses what might be causing what.

In my humble opinion.
Cheers
gww

Ps Square has tried it and it is working and he is trying to get others interested into studying why it is working. Seeley found bees that were living and then studied the why. The russian bees were there and then studied to see the how.


----------



## msl

Litsinger said:


> As I have stated before, I feel it is incumbent that I evaluate the local stock










_"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"_- Charles Darwin 
beekeepers peak at about 3 years, kinda of like teenages at that point they know almost everything. Not a flaw, just part of our nature Its called theDunning–Kruger effect

_"People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and makeunfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it"

"Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them
recognize the limitations of their abilities."_
Kruger, Dunning 1999 Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

That is the problem with the internet, sorting youthful exuberance from seasoned advice from strait up con men from what is almost cult like behavior invoking blind devotion.



> I totally agree with at least trying what you can get a hold of before jumping to the conclusion that the grass is always greener in somebody else's yard.


I feel this message is one of the down falls of TF... the whole concept of a new beekeeper rolling up your sleeves and do it your self cause you can do better then people who have been breeding for resistance for decades. 
If just hiving feral swarms was the answer, seeley would be a rich man 
my belief is this lack of support (read $$$) has handicapped TF breeding as there seems to be little market for it...
If people asked for resistant stock we would have them... 
If people demanded mite biter queen stock in there packages they would have it, with in a year... it would only take one year... you bet if the producers had a whole bunch of left over packages, or had to sell them at a large discount while MBBs were selling at a premium, you would have the queens your asking for next year. 



> Mls approaches it like a guy who wants to breed a super bee to sell others and get the ability to be commercial with them


probably because those guys use methods that have a documented track record of success 
I am talking basics here, Basic stock selection and propagation no were even near breeding witch is well over my head.


----------



## gww

Mls
I hear you but like all things, It depends on what you are looking for. I don't want to buy queens and so demanding stuff from queen producers would not have much impact from me.

Randy gives a clue in one of his articles on his site scientific beekeeping.


> *Practical application: eventually, the mites will develop resistance to every miticide, and DWV will evolve to become more virulent*.The solution is for us to stop fighting the evolutionary process, and instead work with nature, rather than against it. We need to strike a deal with varroa and DWV [8]. We beekeepers can then stop doing the fighting, turning that job over to our bees. We will *only* breed from colonies that exhibit traits that restrict mite reproduction (yet allow the mite and virus to survive at benign levels and transmit vertically from parent colony to daughter)*.*
> *Small-scale beekeepers can do this by simply making increase only from colonies healthy enough to swarm in their second year*. As Fries and Camazine acknowledge, it would be impractical to suggest that large-scale beekeepers do so. In their words:.


He also pointed out in a different article, that some of the smaller treatment free guys that are having success should have their bees looked at cause there might be gold there. I did not find the article to get the exact quote but took it to be small keepers like me type.

He also writes very much on managed bees going feral and changing quickly and living at least enough to survive long term with out interference. Some of the mechanisms used may not be helpful to a beekeeper though.

He also writes that feral pools stay kind of separate though there is probably some mixing. You have read those same studies I have.

You have to recognize that people like squarepeg exists or say they are dreaming what is happening.

I won't say that is what will happen but do believe in the possibility and that there is only one way to find out.

Randy also mentions that we may be picking the wrong traits in our breeding causing even weaker bees, things like color and that we interrupt the natural breeding cycle. On your side of this he knows commercials would go broke doing that and so reality is that stop gap is how we are going to handle mites.

I am sure even the successful treatment free beekeepers recognize some of the things you point out that could make for improvement to what they are doing. However, not improving is not going to make them unhappy if they feel they are being successful now. 

I know lots of things that could help my bees. I could have moved them to my dads soy beans during my drought but was happy enough to not want to go to the work for more then they had already gave me.

mls quote


> my belief is this lack of support (read $$$) has handicapped TF breeding as there seems to be little market for it...


I agree there is a lack of support (read $$$) for the breeding market from guys that are getting by with out buying bees. Those that like what they are getting now are not unhappy enough to pressure either.

If my hives keep living like they have (not saying they will) I will be wanting to sell some, not buy some. Some day I am going to quit building more equipment and I don't want another real job, I did my thirty years already.

Depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
It also depends on if you are talking for the bees or for what you get from the bees. Randy's position that I have read is that the bees would have worked it out by now if the people doing what they do would not go bankrupt while they worked it out. This is never going to go away cause the people doing it like what they are getting compared to the alternative in most cases. This counts for me and counts for the commercials.

Cheers
gww

Ps, It was the bees doing the breeding for decades, some with people calling some of the shots. The thirty percent reduction in mite birth was noticed in bees that were not managed. Who knows what russ will start with with out trying it to see? That is not being smarter then any breeder, it is just recognizing that some bees have been studied that do this on there own. Then people checked them to see what they were doing.


----------



## AHudd

msl said:


> I feel this message is one of the down falls of TF... the whole concept of a new beekeeper rolling up your sleeves and do it your self cause you can do better then people who have been breeding for resistance for decades.


I think, for a new beek, rolling up their sleeves and doing it themselves is a crucial step in their ability to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. Spending a lot of time and money on failure is a very good lesson. As for the ones who think they can do it better right out of the box than the experts, I agree.

Alex


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## msl

> He also pointed out in a different article, that some of the smaller treatment free guys that are having success should have their bees looked at cause there might be gold there.


yes, yes there could be.
most people who set out to be gold miners go broke... 
Many of us have had a need of a gold ring in our adult lives...how many went and dug for gold and diamonds? 

How many people have pulled off a Clampetts and got lucky digging a random hole in there yard and got rich? A few for sure, but they are the rare exception, not the rule

anyway your filter is on high and your cherry picking things while you miss Randy's full message, 



> Practical application: if you are a recreational beekeeper, and stock your hives with local swarms or cutouts, there is a possibility that you might get lucky and chance upon some bees with a degree of mite resistance. But it would have been natural selection of the wild-type breeding population that favored those genetics, not your beekeeping. To the contrary, you can set that evolutionary progress back when you artificially increase the density of the host (bee) population by adding to the number of colonies per square mile. If your colonies then collapse from the varroa/DWV Monster, you’d be contributing to The Problem in the local wild-type bee population.





> the beekeepers who are seriously part of The Problem are those, whether large-scale or small, whose poor management unintentionally allows collapsing hives to disperse the most virulent combinations of varroa and DWV to their neighbor’s apiaries in late summer — this is irresponsible and indefensible. But the distressing thing is that there is another group of beekeepers who, while thinking that they are doing good, are actually just as much a part of The Problem.





> Ways to improve: start with resistant stock *(support your local breeders)*, monitor varroa, treat or euthanize mite-infested colonies before they collapse and spread mites and DWV strains to surrounding colonies





> 1) SHIFTING BEE GENETICS TO MITE RESISTANCE
> 
> It’s time for some straight talk about shifting the genetics of the honey bee population, as this is where many recreational beekeepers delude themselves. It does no good whatsoever to simply allow non-resistant package bee colonies to die from varroa/DWV (Fig. 6). Neither does it have any appreciable impact upon the honey bee breeding population *even if you are lucky enough* to identify the rare colony that exhibits mite resistance, unless you then manage to rear hundreds or thousands of daughters from that queen.
> 
> Practical application: I hate to pop the that balloon, but no matter how well-intentioned you are, the small-scale beekeeper has virtually zero chance of changing the genetics of any breeding population unless he/she collaborates with a large queen producer.
> 
> Such collaboration could consist of letting a queen producer know that you’ve identified a colony that has kept varroa under control for at least a full season. But for most beekeepers, you can exert the most influence by voting with your dollars.
> 
> Practical application: with regard to shifting the genetics, this can only happen by changing the market demand for queen bees. So long as beekeepers are willing to pay queen producers for whatever kind of non-mite-resistant queens are available, there is no reason to expect the producers to make the effort to realistically select for mite resistance. Support any breeder who is engaged in a serious program to select, propagate, and sell tested stock that exhibits resistance to varroa. Keep in mind that it is always the consumer that drives any market — when queen buyers finally start to demand mite-resistant stock before they part with their dollars, the queen producers will respond in a heartbeat.





> I encourage all beekeepers to be part of The Solution — first, by monitoring varroa and preventing the collapse of their hives due to DWV, and second by putting the pressure on queen producers to start offering bee bloodlines confirmed by testing to exhibit resistance to varroa. Every beekeeper should be on the lookout for the rare colony that can handle mites on its own, and should they identify one, make sure that someone produces hundreds of daughters from that queen.


Randy Oliver- The Varroa Problem: Part 17c Being Part of the Solution.


----------



## Riverderwent

Litsinger said:


> Thank you again for your help.


I should have added that, although it's fun to hive a primary swarm the size of a watermelon, I slightly prefer secondary swarms.


----------



## gww

Msl
Russ may not have to shift the genetics. Mite have been around for thirty years and his area may have shifted on its own. Don't know till you try. You will began to know as you try. If it works, then it works. From there, pick your best to make more. 
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

MSL, GWW and Alex:

First let me say that I really appreciate each of you and the contributions that you all have made to my education. As MSL quoted, I can certainly identify with the following statement in just about every corner of my life- personally and professionally:



msl said:


> "Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities."[/I]


I too (as Alex pointed out below) have paid more than my fair share of “stupid tax” on occasion, so I am increasingly suspicious of my own opinions or apparent aptitudes as I grow older:



AHudd said:


> I think, for a new beek, rolling up their sleeves and doing it themselves is a crucial step in their ability to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. Spending a lot of time and money on failure is a very good lesson.


As a result of half a lifetime of successes and failures, I have learned to listen and learn from anyone I can, even if they are coming at a particular problem from a different perspective than me.

I have also learned that it is good to have a contingency plan when dealing with a complicated issue in the event that one’s well-researched and well-intended plan crumbles in your hands. 

To that end, I really value everyone’s input- and even if I initially approach the problem from a different direction than one might recommend, it is not because I do not appreciate the alternate suggestions. It simply means they are going into my hip pocket as “Plan B” should my best intentions not work out. This for example is one reason why I am currently reading diligently through the thread that MSL started entitled, _“A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF”_.

As GWW pointed out regarding an evaluation of local swarm stock:



gww said:


> If they are good, you can do as you say and do the testing to find out weaknesses or prove out why, if you are so inclined. If they are bad, you still may learn quite a bit just seeing the badness to compare to any change you decide you need.


At this point I know very little, and I gladly acknowledge my ignorance. Here is what I do know:

1.	I have two local hived swarms that are surviving thus far and have exhibited low mite drops (i.e. under the 30 mites / 48 hour threshold) since installed in May.

2.	I live in a similar Ecoregion to that which Squarepeg does (edited- see Post #250).

This obviously is a flimsy basis for confidence, and it is why I have routinely mentioned that I consider this experiment a “proof of concept”. I am prepared for the experiment to fail.

That said, there is one foundational bit of information I have taken from MSL’s patient endurance of my slow path to understanding, as encapsulated below:



msl said:


> "Practical application: if you are a recreational beekeeper, and stock your hives with local swarms or cutouts, there is a possibility that you might get lucky and chance upon some bees with a degree of mite resistance. But it would have been natural selection of the wild-type breeding population that favored those genetics, not your beekeeping. To the contrary, you can set that evolutionary progress back when you artificially increase the density of the host (bee) population by adding to the number of colonies per square mile. If your colonies then collapse from the varroa/DWV Monster, you’d be contributing to The Problem in the local wild-type bee population. The beekeepers who are seriously part of The Problem are those, whether large-scale or small, whose poor management unintentionally allows collapsing hives to disperse the most virulent combinations of varroa and DWV to their neighbor’s apiaries in late summer — this is irresponsible and indefensible. But the distressing thing is that there is another group of beekeepers who, while thinking that they are doing good, are actually just as much a part of The Problem. Ways to improve: start with resistant stock (support your local breeders), monitor varroa, treat or euthanize mite-infested colonies before they collapse and spread mites and DWV strains to surrounding colonies." taken from: _Randy Oliver- The Varroa Problem: Part 17c Being Part of the Solution._


What I take away from this (even as I push forward with a plan to hive more swarms is):

1.	Be circumspect about making splits from stock strictly based on overwintering success.

2.	Monitor mite levels in all hived colonies and proactively protect or destroy those which appear headed for collapse.

3.	Build apiary through grafting and splits of only the fittest of the multi-year survivor hives which also consistently exhibit low relative mite levels.

Again, I am very appreciative and grateful for all the help and input and I do sincerely hope that we can continue to have an engaging and constructive dialog regarding this issue even as we all seek for the best solution to the varroa problem in our own situation and circumstances.

With the utmost of respect-

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> I should have added that, although it's fun to hive a primary swarm the size of a watermelon, I slightly prefer secondary swarms.


David:

Thank you for your reply- that is really interesting. If you don't mind, may I ask you to outline your logic/experience with preferring the secondary swarms? Is it strictly a function of having a younger queen?

Thank you for all your help and advise- I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Msl
> Russ may not have to shift the genetics. Mite have been around for thirty years and his area may have shifted on its own. Don't know till you try. You will began to know as you try. If it works, then it works. From there, pick your best to make more.
> Cheers
> gww


GWW:

Thank you for your reply- you said it much better and more succinctly than I could have. 

I might have resistant genetics in the area and I might not. I am prepared for either outcome and am listening to everyone regarding a suitable fall-back plan.

Thanks again for all your help and input.

Russ


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## squarepeg

russ, it appears we are in similar but not identical ecoregions.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Terrestrial_ecoregions_USA_CAN_MEX.svg

i'm in the northeast corner of alabama, in the sliver of gray ecoregion #17, which is described as "appalachian mixed mesophytic forests".

best i can tell, boaz is in the light green ecoregion #18, which is described as "central u.s. hardwood forests".

riverderwent on the other hand, is in brown ecoregion #48, which is described as "piney woods forests".

i think the important thing is that the environmental factors are sufficient to allow unmanaged (feral-ish, wild-type, ect.) colonies to make it through winter and cast reproductive swarms the following spring.

if you can establish there are colonies like that in the area then your chances for success are much improved.

collecting such colonies and/or trapping swarms issued from them would be somewhat labor intensive, but worth considering if there is not already proven stock in your area available for purchase.


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> russ, it appears we are in similar but not identical ecoregions.


Well, there goes half of my TF confidence...

In all seriousness, I do appreciate all your help and advice.

Russ


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## AHudd

I didn't mean to imply you are doomed to failure. I was thinking more about the lessons I learned purchasing TF bees and the lessons I am still learning working with wood. 

Alex


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## Litsinger

AHudd said:


> I didn't mean to imply you are doomed to failure. I was thinking more about the lessons I learned purchasing TF bees and the lessons I am still learning working with wood.
> 
> Alex


Thank you, Alex. I really do appreciate your help.

Part of my 'stupid tax' was buying small-cell package bees without really appreciating the mechanisms underlying TF resistance.

I am afraid I'm not quite done paying for my education either.  

Thanks again for your help. Please do feel welcome to chime in anytime!

Russ


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## gww

Russ
I have a thought in my head that could be construed as a kind of advice from a novice. It would also go against strengthening your genetic pool. I preface it by saying I am a cheapskate that does not like to buy things.

Here goes,
In post number 187 of this thread, squarepeg gave some advice.


> this is why i suggested you get your hive count up as high as your budget and time allow. in this way you can do your best to 'beat the odds' by having enough in the upper 2/3rds to get you a decent return on investment


I count this as sorta playing the numbers, the more you have the better chance all will not die at once.

You mentioned to be circumspect on splitting only healthy hives. My view is that in the beginning, if you don't want to buy a bunch of bees, getting the hive numbers up with what you have is the only real choice. This may mean in the beginning, splitting everything you have that is strong enough to make splits with and still build up for winter. To me, this is to give you the bees to be able to decide later which ones end up being best.

I did not have a choice in this cause my first year had a very warm feb and the bees decided for me and tripled on their own. There was no worrying about is this the best bee to make increase from. I have made a few splits since then and not from my best cause I did not know yet what my best might be and so made splits from those which might not make excess honey for me. I added a few more trapped bees too.

I feel better that I won't lose all ten hives then I did when I had three. I also have got to watch them an extra year or two to look for trends. I may be to the point where I have something to pick from and also have a chance (no guarantee) to weather it going bad.

My view is you have to start somewhere and in the beginning it may not pay to be super picky even though in the end, super picky is probably a good goal.

Since I am into the ideal of not spending much money on my hobby, I felt this gave me the best odds of accomplishing that and still have bees in the end to play with.

It is just a thought pattern and maybe a wrong one but I thought I would throw it out there.
Good luck
gww
Ps
I also think that splitting all in the beginning has less impact on the breeding pool due to the low numbers of hives during beginning build up. It is the background population that you are putting your faith in and if they are not good,everything becomes harder for small scale.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> My view is you have to start somewhere and in the beginning it may not pay to be super picky even though in the end, super picky is probably a good goal.


GWW:

Thank you for the good, solid, practical advice. Ultimately, I may do exactly as you and Squarepeg suggest. Here are my thoughts as of now:

1. Cross my fingers and hope the two colonies I have overwinter successfully- obviously, if they die all bets are off.

2. I have ten free bottom boards and plenty of eight-frame medium boxes, so get them all set-up as swarm traps, distributed at regional locations (i.e. within 10 - 35 miles of my home).

3. I have four dedicated swarm traps, so get them set-up here at home (same location I caught two swarms last Spring), also for potentially catching my own swarms should my overwintered colony manipulations not go as planned.

4. I have two complete 5-frame nuc set-ups, so consider using them relatively early in the season.

5. Depending upon how the traps do, and how either/both of the overwintered colonies do, contemplate making a few splits to carry into next year.

Ultimately, my goal would be to have six full-sized colonies (and maybe two 5-over-5 nucs) going into winter 2019.

Along the way, I really like the idea of conducting a minimum of four (4) seasonal mite drops (i.e. Vernal Equinox, Summer Solstice, Autumnal Equinox and Winter Solstice), using this data as one proxy for evaluating long-term colony resistance.

This all may go the way of the proverbial "hell in a handbasket", but I hope it at least sets a goal to pursue to benchmark against. What do you think about this framework?

I really do appreciate your help and input, and I have learned a lot from your comments here and on other posts here on Beesource.

Thank you again, and have a great evening.

Russ


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## gww

Russ
My opinion on the traps is that they need to be bigger then eight frame mediums. I used to add a skirt to my ten frame mediums. I have a couple double mediums up. I trap about the same range as you and use my relatives. They call me if they see bees around my traps. Trapping can get expensive if you have to do it all.

I don't count mites but do not discourage it. I don't cause I don't plan on doing anything even if I find some. Later, if you are breeding for hives that keep low mites, you probably have no choice. I am not a purist and if I ever do have too many problems, I will probably treat but will have problems I can see and can not overcome first. I do look and see which hives look the best. I have broke a few drone larva to look and look at my comb pretty hard for mite frass and other problems. If I ever have a dead out, I will autopsy and try to learn from it.

I have not picked a number of hives I want and have just sorta worked off of what the bees do and maybe a split here and there as a waste management cause it seems wasteful not to do something with them. I also had a little fear and just felt comfortable with a few more. I do know they can die and just have not.

Personally, I have not tried to drain every penny possible out of my bees but also try not and put any money in and so pretty much take it slow and steady. Your end goal of what you want out of the bees will have the biggest impact. I just wanted to learn the possibilities for free while I decided after learning a little which way I might jump. I still don't know for myself yet. So I don't take it too seriously and more just want a hobby that is more productive then it is a money pit.

Six is a good number but you will find you have no choice and either have to let the bees fly to the trees or get more hives or sell some bees.

Myself, I just keep building hives but that will end when I get too much honey crystallizing in my basement cause I did not sell it or give enough of it away. Bees have a way of making you move in some direction. Not like chickens where if you don't have a rooster you can stay static.

I think you are going to have fun actually doing and putting some of your home work into practice. I read a lot but still feel lost when working the bees but do know more then I did a couple years ago.

Even if your hives die, you will have a head start with the next swarm you catch due to the comb that is already drawn out. Make the best of whatever happens and adjust if you are forced to.
Keep us informed cause I intend to learn a little from you like I have from the other posters of this thread.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> I have learned a lot from your comments here and on other posts here on Beesource.


Just as future motivation for all of us commenting:

Can you name one thing you decided to do differently after advise from Beesource.


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## Riverderwent

Litsinger said:


> Thank you for your reply- that is really interesting. If you don't mind, may I ask you to outline your logic/experience with preferring the secondary swarms? Is it strictly a function of having a younger queen?


Nope. If the prime queen was mated locally (that is, she is at least one generation away from a commercial breeder), then her offspring (the queens in secondary swarms) will have one more generation of genes from local drones than she does. Here, a lot of those local drones will be from feral or untreated colonies. 

I don’t mind older queens at all if they are truly feral or untreated. Having a four year old, well mated, untreated queen means she has survived four years despite Varroa. I don’t replace queens unless the hive is aggressive. 

Concerning the eco regions, my area is classified as Piney Woods #48, but my bees are in an area better described as hardwood riverine lowlands. The area to the northwest and east and northeast of Boaz, the area along Mayfield Creek, and of course, the Land Between the Lakes further to the east, looks like it could be a good breeding ground for feral bees. I would talk to some local pest control folks and ask them whether they get calls for bee removals and where those calls come from. They can also let you know about feral colonies that need to be removed.


----------



## Litsinger

GWW:

Thank you again for your help and advice- I really appreciate it. In response:



gww said:


> I have a couple double mediums up.


My current swarm traps are double mediums, and they seemed to work well this past season- this is what gave me the idea to simply use regular production woodenware as the trap. At least in theory it will afford me more time to pick-up trapped swarms and I will not have to re-hive them when I get them home. 



gww said:


> I don't count mites but do not discourage it. I don't cause I don't plan on doing anything even if I find some.


Having personally experienced mite collapse this year and now having some inkling of what to be looking for, I would prefer to avoid this in the future. Based on feedback received here on this forum, my long-range thought now is to monitor mite drop levels at a regular, periodic intervals in each hive, each year, and use these data to be proactive in dealing with an impending mite collapse and at least use these values as one evaluation point in the future when considering what hives to propagate from. 



gww said:


> Personally, I have not tried to drain every penny possible out of my bees but also try not and put any money in and so pretty much take it slow and steady. Your end goal of what you want out of the bees will have the biggest impact.


This is a great point, and it seems you have a good handle on this in your own operation. At the end of the day, beekeeping is a hobby to me personally so I am afforded the luxury of not having to support my family by this boondoggle. So, I prefer the slow and steady approach, allowing me the opportunity to learn and react to the myriad mistakes I no-doubt still have to make in learning the craft. 



gww said:


> Six is a good number but you will find you have no choice and either have to let the bees fly to the trees or get more hives or sell some bees.


I actually have equipment enough for twelve hives, and I will not turn-away any homeless bees as long as I have equipment to support them. Beyond that, I can't see far enough ahead to predict whether I can successfully maintain any more than that. I'd like to think I could, but I learn more every day about what I don't know!



gww said:


> Even if your hives die, you will have a head start with the next swarm you catch due to the comb that is already drawn out. Make the best of whatever happens and adjust if you are forced to.


This seems to be a fundamental axiom in beekeeping (and animal husbandry in general) isn't it? Losses and set-backs are part of the process, but life prevails.

I really do appreciate your helpful input, and I am really encouraged that you have been able to successfully build your apiary with many of the fundamentals I am pursuing. I sincerely hope that 2019 is a year of overflowing prosperity for you and your family.

Russ


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## gww

Russ


> I sincerely hope that 2019 is a year of overflowing prosperity for you and your family.


Back at you.:thumbsup:
gww


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## msl

> Along the way, I really like the idea of conducting a minimum of four (4) seasonal mite drops (i.e. Vernal Equinox, Summer Solstice, Autumnal Equinox and Winter Solstice)


What evidence have you found to suggest that timing? . 
You have Seeleys dates as a baseline and throw them right out the window. Filter on high again I guess.



> Russ may not have to shift the genetics. Mite have been around for thirty years and his area may have shifted on its own


sure, I have repeatedly aloknlaged this chance, but even if he finds something in his traping radius, The DCA his queens end up at could still water it down 
However his state TX lost 26.2% and TF 48.9%. 
Compare that to SP and FP state were TF loses were 29.3%, Rivers were its 20.1% your, state were they are 32% 
(All numbers BIP, BYBK, last 5 years, total losses)
right now he is at 66% losses ? 

TF is a bit like gambling… You can go with luck, or you can count cards and read tells. I suggest the latter, then getting lucky is just a bonus


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Can you name one thing you decided to do differently after advise from Beesource.


Juhani:

Thank you for your post, and Happy New Year to you and your family!

In reply, there are actually four foundational things I have decided to do differently based on advice I have received on this forum:

1. Selection- Based on feedback from you, MSL and GregV in particular, I have decided to be much more cautious in making splits from current and future hived swarms until such time as they have established their ability to serve as the foundation for a sustainable TF apiary (or alternately prove utterly unsuitable). At present, the general evaluation framework would be as follows (subject to update based on conditions on the ground and further feedback from you all):

A. Monitor mite levels, conducting 48 hour mite drop evaluations at consistent intervals throughout the year to monitor trends both within and between colonies. Colonies with consistently low mite drops would be given priority relative to potential future propagation.

B. In conjunction with (A) above, propagation would not be augmented within any colony until they have successfully overwintered at least twice.

Corresponding to this, colonies that appear to be headed for imminent mite collapse will be proactively dealt with rather than being allowed to succumb naturally. 

Analogous to this, should a multi-season evaluation prove untenable based on the framework above, I plan to pursue the introduction of resistant breeder queens to the apiary and establish a new paradigm for TF operations.

2. Narrow Frames- Based on wise advice from Crofter, I plan on being more cautious in introducing narrow frames into the apiary.

3. Bisecting the Broodnest- Based on feedback from both Couesbro and Crofter, I am going to avoid the Rose Hive method of introducing new boxes between two boxes of brood during Spring build-up.

4. Checkerboarding Manipulation- Based on experienced observations by Squarepeg, I plan on moving the cluster down near the bottom of the stack when executing Checkerboarding manipulations, regardless of where they are found in the stack.

I do hope to make good on the investments of time and experience that many have shared here. I really do appreciate your feedback, and I sincerely hope that 2019 is a year of overwhelming prosperity and good health for you and your family.

Thank you again, and Happy New Year!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> Concerning the eco regions, my area is classified as Piney Woods #48, but my bees are in an area better described as hardwood riverine lowlands. The area to the northwest and east and northeast of Boaz, the area along Mayfield Creek, and of course, the Land Between the Lakes further to the east, looks like it could be a good breeding ground for feral bees. I would talk to some local pest control folks and ask them whether they get calls for bee removals and where those calls come from. They can also let you know about feral colonies that need to be removed.


David:

Thank you very much for your response. I am sincerely appreciative. Your feedback about secondary swarms being further influenced by local drones is an interesting and insightful thought. As a result of this preference, do you then as a matter of course set out your swarm traps later in the season for just such a purpose?

I live approximately 5 miles North and East of Boaz proper. My immediate location backs up to Camp Creek and is very near the Clark's River Wildlife Refuge.

Thanks again for all your help and input, and here's hoping that you and your family have a most prosperous and healthy 2019.

Happy New Year!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> What evidence have you found to suggest that timing?.


MSL:

Thank you again for being willing to push-back on my thoughts- I really do appreciate having constructive criticism of my proposed approach. Your point is valid- there is no specific rationale with the four dates selected other than they generally corresponded to seasonal change and would be relatively easy to remember. That said, I take no exception to modifying that parameter to correspond with Dr. Seeley's testing protocols, specifically in evaluating three times per year: Pre-Swarm Spring, Post-Primary Swarm Summer and Post-Secondary Swarm Fall.



msl said:


> However his state TX lost 26.2% and TF 48.9%...right now he is at 66% losses?


To clarify, I am located in Western Kentucky and at least per the BIP it appears that the latest preliminary loss figures stand at 35.7%.

https://beeinformed.org/2018/06/21/...losses-by-state-and-the-district-of-columbia/

You are correct that my losses currently stand at 66% (i.e. I had six colonies in October and I am down to two as of right now). To distill these figures down:

1. The two full-sized colony losses are represented by April package starts of regressed bees on 4.9 mm foundation. Both failed due to varroa collapse (In November and December respectively). As I have noted, this experience was both disheartening and enlightening and has encouraged me not to allow a colony to collapse in this manner again if I can help it.

2. The two single five-frame nuc losses are represented by July starts of queenless nucs. As previously noted, I believe both the method (i.e. limited resources) and timing (dearth) were both mistakes and I attribute these losses to beekeeper error as neither showed any signs of disease. 

3. The two full-sized colonies which remain alive to-date are June caught swarms of unknown origin. As opposed to the purchased packages, they both have exhibited consistently low mite drops in the oil trays maintained under the hives the entirety of the season.

Based on this vary limited experience, I felt that evaluating local swarm stock was a worthwhile experiment- especially now that I have a better handle on a back-up should it not work out thanks to feedback from folks like you, GregV and Juhani.

I really do sincerely appreciate your help and input, and I will gladly eat crow if this hare-brained scheme does not work out.

Thanks again for taking the time to share your insightful and helpful information.

I sincerely hope that you and your family have a most prosperous and healthy 2019.

Happy New Year!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> While I have no history to compare to, it is interesting to see how these two hives compare side-by-side. I will continue to monitor these values to establish a baseline.


Because today represented 48 hours since I renewed the trays in both hives, I decided it would be interesting to conduct an ad-hoc mite drop count on both hives. Here are the results:

Hive #3- 4 mites.

Hive #4- 15 mites. Of this total, 4 were empty shells.

Not sure what (if anything) can be ascertained from these data, but I will continue to monitor periodically to see if any patterns emerge.

Today's high of 67 degrees F was accompanied by tornadic weather and monsoon-like rains. In the late afternoon when the wind and rain subsided, Hive #3 came alive with significant activity out of the upper entrance. This is the most activity I have seen from this hive to-date over the winter.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> While I have no history to compare to, it is interesting to see how these two hives compare side-by-side. I will continue to monitor these values to establish a baseline.


Given that today represented 48 hours since I renewed the trays, I thought it would be interesting to conduct an ad hoc mite count as follows:

Hive #3- 4 mites.

Hive #4- 15 mites- 4 of which were empty shells.

I am not certain what if anything can be inferred from these data, I hope to continue to monitor this to hopefully establish trends.















Today's high of 67 degrees F was accompanied by tornadic weather and monsoon-like rains. When the wind calmed and the rain subsided in the late afternoon there was a flurry of activity out of the top entrance of Hive #3. This is the most I have seen out of this hive to-date this Winter.


----------



## msl

This is were sticky board meets Ouija board... time of year, brood rearing, etc all plays a part a 
for the UK they say 
_ Multiply the daily mite fall figure by one of the following.
Winter i.e. November to February x400
Summer i.e. May to August x30
March, April, September and October x100 (These periods are approximate only)"_
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/downloadDocument.cfm?id=199

but you have to adjust for your current brood rearing state, and check for grooming behavior
by your last counts


> Hive #3- Three dozen dead bees on the screen and approximately 200 mites in the tray.
> 
> Hive #4- No dead bees on the screen and approximately 315 mites in the tray (along with a fair number of SHB).


hive 4 would be in real trouble, like shood be dead, if you were in my climate with brood less hives or at lest would crash when brood rearing starts and virus goes critical as the 20 day sticky run says 6300 mites.... 
Maby in your climate you have stated brooding earlyer and its saying 1575... but that's likly close to 8-10% given bee pop this time of year...

Is this the case? 
Don't know, its a sticky board, that's why I don't like them

note Seeley Sept 90 in 48 is the same as a Dec 22.5 in 48... and your 20 day advrage on hive #4 was 31.5 per 48hour... time will tell


----------



## squarepeg

i am curious to know if the dead mites are dying of natural causes vs. being eliminated by ankle biting bees.

russ, does your microscope have enough resolution to allow for comparison to the photos in the purdue article?


----------



## Riverderwent

Litsinger said:


> As a result of this preference, do you then as a matter of course set out your swarm traps later in the season for just such a purpose?


Nope. I try to set them out a couple of weeks before the first swarms and leave them out all summer. Most swarms are done in two months here. A few straggle in late. Happy New Year!


----------



## Juhani Lunden

msl said:


> for the UK they say
> _ Multiply the daily mite fall figure by one of the following.
> Winter i.e. November to February x400
> Summer i.e. May to August x30
> l_


_

In Finland 135 for summer
500-1000 for broodless period_


----------



## JWChesnut

First-year summer swarms have a "halcyon" period, as the swarm has shed mites and had a "broodless" episode in the middle of the summer. The drone and brood density is low in late summer establishment, leading to slower reproduction.

Folks that have bought into the entirely unproven belief in "feral" resistant bees attribute the survival of their summer swarms to magical genetic resistance.

This is confirmation bias at its worse.

A colony overwintering with mites will develop a killing mite load in the spring flow. The spring colony, at its most productive will outbreed the mites and appear to thrive. That same colony, protected from swarming, and thus restarting, will develop parasitic mite syndrome when the drone brooding ends, and the mites resident in the drones migrate to Autumn brood.

Note that the 2nd year survival of the summer swarms generates genuine evolutionary advantage to a bee that maintains small colonies and devotes resources to swarming rather than honey storage. Unsurprisingly, published papers on the Avignon bees note that this is a trajectory in the untreated lineage. Seeley observations are similar: undomesticated bees are small colonies with a tendency to swarm. 

The tragedy is this first-year beekeeper convinced of his own "proof" of feral superiority becomes entirely "resistant" to objective science and continues to spout nonsense until about year six, when faced with continuing Autumn losses, he final realizes the whole house of cards is a magical dead end.


----------



## squarepeg

JWChesnut said:


> The tragedy is this first-year beekeeper convinced of his own "proof" of feral superiority becomes entirely "resistant" to objective science and continues to spout nonsense until about year six, when faced with continuing Autumn losses, he final realizes the whole house of cards is a magical dead end.


yes, we have had reports here on the forum of such scenarios playing out, followed with strong belief perseverance, then later followed by disillusionment and reversal of belief.

but just as tragic and no less biased is the failure to acknowledge the existence of both managed and unmanaged cohorts of ehb demonstrating resistance and successfully co-existing with varroa mites.

i submit that those positing at either extreme of this issue stand equally far away from 'being part of the solution' that randy oliver is calling for.

confirmation bias should be avoided to be sure, but so should defeatism.


----------



## squarepeg

JWChesnut said:


> ...undomesticated bees are small colonies with a tendency to swarm.


of course they are and that should come as no surprise, it's just perfect for the survival of the species, why would we expect anything different?

nor should it come as a surprise that domestication for our exploitation tips the scale.

which begs the question, can we really have our cake and eat it too?

for the handful of us reporting success off treatments here the answer has been 'yes' so far.

(apologies for the side tracking russ, and happy new year to you and yours!)


----------



## GregB

JWChesnut said:


> ....evolutionary advantage to a bee that maintains small colonies and devotes resources to swarming ....


Hence I have been maintaining the idea of "small cluster" beekeeping is to be looked at.
Of course, this is heresy for some.


----------



## msl

woops I missed this


> I am located in Western Kentucky and at least per the BIP it appears that the latest preliminary loss figures stand at 35.7%.


once again, filter on high..

As stated I am running the 5 year on BYBK because as you say "_ mistakes and I attribute these losses to beekeeper error"_ is why they take larger losses...
the 5 year is 37.2% total winter loss... But, KY has a large number of TF BYBK reporting in, like 55% and and about 45% of the hives are manged TF

The high TF losses (48.9%) and #s of keepers are increasing the total loses. Those who treat are loosening much less (26.2%)


----------



## crofter

squarepeg said:


> yes, we have had reports here on the forum of such scenarios playing out, followed with strong belief perseverance, then later followed by disillusionment and reversal of belief.
> 
> but just as tragic and no less biased is the failure to acknowledge the existence of both managed and unmanaged cohorts of ehb demonstrating resistance and successfully co-existing with varroa mites.
> 
> i submit that those positing at either extreme of this issue stand equally far away from 'being part of the solution' that randy oliver is calling for.
> 
> confirmation bias should be avoided to be sure, but so should defeatism.


 
Hmmm!

I dont believe that defeatism is the antonym of confirmation bias! Confirmation bias can exist quite happily in either the optimistic or the pessimistic person. 

If a premise is indeed correct, that does not define it as being pessimistic: However if it is obviously logic challenged from many angles and only emotionally supported it deserves the title.

Good science and research should be as free as possible of confirmation bias in either direction! Both pessimism and optimism pull on its strings!


----------



## squarepeg

i acknowledge your point and accept your admonition frank. i could have done a better job with that last sentence.

yes, i was trying to say that i see confirmation bias existing at both ends of the spectrum; 

the pitfalls of which are wishful thinking at the one extreme and defeatism at the other.

fortunately the discussions we are having these days reflect (with the rare exception) a more moderate tone.

i believe russ is going forward with eyes wide open, i appreciate him taking the time to share his experience with us, and it will be interesting to see how it shakes out in the end.


----------



## Litsinger

MSL and Squarepeg:

Thank you both for your help and feedback. I sincerely appreciate it. In response:



msl said:


> but you have to adjust for your current brood rearing state, and check for grooming behavior


I surmise based on incoming pollen (Hive #4) or lack thereof (Hive #3) and the fact that Hive #3 moved to the top of the stack when added stores were supplied on December 15th while Hive #4 stayed-put (thanks to Squarepeg for the diagnosis) that Hive #4 might be working on a little patch of brood. This is further supported by a recently hatched dead bee on the landing board of Hive #4 this afternoon.



squarepeg said:


> russ, does your microscope have enough resolution to allow for comparison to the photos in the purdue article?


I was able to capture some photos in natural daylight this afternoon which might afford better resolution (see attached). These are at approximately 20X.


----------



## msl

Indeed SP, I look forward to this spring were we see the results and can put his late season mite drop in survival perspective.


----------



## Litsinger

JWChesnut said:


> The tragedy is this first-year beekeeper convinced of his own "proof" of feral superiority becomes entirely "resistant" to objective science and continues to spout nonsense until about year six, when faced with continuing Autumn losses, he final realizes the whole house of cards is a magical dead end.


JW:

As always- I appreciate your candor. I freely admit as often as occasion allows that this experiment might very well crash and burn, and I am prepared for this reality.

I also presume to know nothing, which is why I appreciate the experienced feedback I receive here on Beesource. To be fair, I am listening carefully to those who are having success in TF but are doing so via a different path I am currently walking down to understand the underlying foundations of their success and thus emulate should my current path prove to be a dead-end.

If nothing else, this thread might serve as a 'stone of witness' for future aspiring TF beekeepers to learn what not to do. 

Seriously, I do appreciate you being honest- please feel welcome to push back anytime.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> (apologies for the side tracking russ, and happy new year to you and yours!)


Squarepeg:

No need to apologize- this thread is better for the exchange of ideas that is happening, so I am glad you (and the others) are contributing.

I sincerely hope that you and your family have a healthy and prosperous 2019.

Russ


----------



## squarepeg

Litsinger said:


> I was able to capture some photos in natural daylight this afternoon which might afford better resolution (see attached). These are at approximately 20X.


almost but not quite enough detail russ. 

i found this link to the same paper published in the march 2016 bee culture with better enlargements:

https://www.beeculture.com/breeding-mite-biting-bees-to-control-varroa/


here's what they were looking for:

" ..the number of mites missing legs or leg parts or showing mutilation of the idiosoma was counted. Pale immature mites were not examined because these could have fallen as bees emerge from brood cells and may be more susceptible to damage unrelated to grooming behavior. Sometimes empty shells – the idiosoma with virtually no contents were observed. These were not counted because we do not know their cause."

the uppermost left and right photos i believe are showing undamaged mites.

the photo in the center i believe is showing mutilation of the idiosoma.

most of the arrows point to chewed off legs

when i get the chance to start doing a more careful analysis of what mechanism(s) my bees are utilizing to co-exist with mites this is one of the metrics i'll be paying attention to.


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> once again, filter on high..


Fair statement, MSL.

You are right that I cannot arbitrarily assign "beekeeper error" to a hive failure.

I have nothing to hide, so going forward I will post losses in as timely and detailed fashion as possible so we can all collectively evaluate the success or failure of this experiment.

Thank you as always for keeping me honest.

Russ


----------



## crofter

Litsinger said:


> JW:
> 
> As always- I appreciate your candor. I freely admit as often as occasion allows that this experiment might very well crash and burn, and I am prepared for this reality.
> 
> I also presume to know nothing, which is why I appreciate the experienced feedback I receive here on Beesource. To be fair, I am listening carefully to those who are having success in TF but are doing so via a different path I am currently walking down to understand the underlying foundations of their success and thus emulate should my current path prove to be a dead-end.
> 
> If nothing else, this thread might serve as a 'stone of witness' for future aspiring TF beekeepers to learn what not to do.
> 
> Seriously, I do appreciate you being honest- please feel welcome to push back anytime.
> 
> Russ


Hi Russ;

I am watching this thread with interest; indeed I think it serves a good purpose as it is bringing out good information and calling attention to some that is questionable. Msl is doing a good job at holding your feet to the fire a bit, and cautioning about letting exhuberance compromise objectivity. 

Confirmation bias is weirdly powerful effect, in that it is so good at hiding itself from the bearer! It is a master of distortion and contortion. 

I am not surprised at the Randy Oliver quote "The easiest person in the world to fool is oneself"


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> almost but not quite enough detail russ.


Here's the best I can do now sitting at the comfort of my kitchen table with a supplemental flashlight. I will post three enlarged images for Hive #3 and follow this with a post containing three enlarged images for Hive #4.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> ... follow this with a post containing three enlarged images for Hive #4.


----------



## squarepeg

i think we are going to be limited by the small file size required to post images on the forum russ.

i can't get close with enough detail, but so far i'm not seeing anything i can solidly say is mauling.

you might be able to get a better look shooting a larger file size and zooming in on your computer.


----------



## Litsinger

crofter said:


> Confirmation bias is weirdly powerful effect, in that it is so good at hiding itself from the bearer! It is a master of distortion and contortion.


Frank:

Thank you for the encouragement and the admonition to be objective. I've lived long enough to recognize that I have plenty of blind spots in my vision, and that is why I really mean it when I say that I appreciate all of you pushing-back against anything I post- I feel I am the better for it, and I do sincerely hope that this tread will serve some greater purpose than myself.

I am also grateful for the input that you have personally provided along the way- thank you for sharing your expertise.

I sincerely hope that you and your family have a safe and prosperous New Year.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> you might be able to get a better look shooting a larger file size and zooming in on your computer.


Thanks, Squarepeg. I tried every method available to me to no avail, so I'll research if there are other options to capture high-resolution 15x zoomed images and subsequently share them on the forum.

Thanks again for your help, and have a great evening.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> Nope. I try to set them out a couple of weeks before the first swarms and leave them out all summer.


David:

I apologize for my delay in reply, and I appreciate you clarifying. So, it sounds like you don't turn any prime swarms away, but simply prefer secondary swarms based on the genetic lineage?

Thanks again for your help. I sincerely hope your 2019 is off to a roaring start!

Russ


----------



## AHudd

You may be aware this site has a "Post Your Swarm Dates" forum. It is categorized by state.

Alex


----------



## Litsinger

Given that it had been 48 hours since I last renewed the trays and I found a new magnifier app for my phone, I decided to give it a whirl.

Hives #3 and #4 (hereinafter referred to as 1803 and 1804 following the smart convention that Clong, Squarepeg and others use) had the following counts:

Hive #1803 - 0

Hive #1804 - 9

I have attached the five best 15X images I was able to capture.

Hive #1803 is clustered dead-center of the top-most (i.e. 5th) box.

Hive #1804 is ironically clustered dead-center of the bottom-most box. They were not excited to have me pull their tray...

Also, I saw that the daffodils are peeking up here at the home place. This prompted me to look closely and I noticed that the maple and elm buds are starting to swell a bit.

The daffodils bloomed February 20th here last year, so if this recent run of mild weather holds we might see the early stuff blooming a full month before it did last year... in fairness last year was unusually cold here.


----------



## Litsinger

AHudd said:


> You may be aware this site has a "Post Your Swarm Dates" forum.


Alex:

Actually, I was not aware of this- thank you for the heads-up! I'll definitely remember should I observe/catch any.

Does Arkansas have anything like this?

http://www.ksbabeekeeping.org/survey-results-on-first-swarms-of-2017/

http://www.ksbabeekeeping.org/results-of-first-swarms-in-2018-survey/


----------



## squarepeg

those are the best images so far russ.

the first and fourth images are close to being able to see the detail in the appendages, but still not quite enough to compare them to the pictures in the linked article.

the second and fifth images appear to be of the top side so the legs can't be seen.

also very interesting that the counts are decreasing. perhaps this is an indication that your bees are grooming the mites off and if your colonies are broodless right now there shouldn't be any replacements for awhile.

again, i've no experience with sticky board counts or evaluating dead mites for mauling. maybe someone with knowledge in these areas will chime in.

many thanks for sharing your observations here and hosting this excellent thread.


----------



## AHudd

Litsinger said:


> Alex:
> 
> Actually, I was not aware of this- thank you for the heads-up! I'll definitely remember should I observe/catch any.
> 
> Does Arkansas have anything like this?
> 
> http://www.ksbabeekeeping.org/survey-results-on-first-swarms-of-2017/
> 
> http://www.ksbabeekeeping.org/results-of-first-swarms-in-2018-survey/


If we do I am not aware of one. As far as I know Arkansas doesn't report to the USDA Agricultural Marketing Service (AMS) Honey report. I have to admit, I've never looked very hard.

Alex


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> again, i've no experience with sticky board counts or evaluating dead mites for mauling. maybe someone with knowledge in these areas will chime in.


Squarepeg:

Thank you for your encouragement. Believe it or not, all five photos posted this afternoon were from the bottom side of the mite. I certainly have no experience in evaluating mites, but I assume by recording these data at regular periodic intervals over time one could develop both baseline and trend markers to evaluate by.

I wish I could come up with higher resolution photos, but it appears that this afternoon's effort is the best I can do without purchasing a microscope... another item for the 'wish list'.

Thanks again for all your help and advice. Have a great day.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

AHudd said:


> If we do I am not aware of one.


I didn't find one either- noticed that you all have a statewide swarm retrieval web link however:

http://arbeekeepers.org/swarms.html


----------



## Riverderwent

Litsinger said:


> Believe it or not, all five photos posted this afternoon were from the bottom side of the mite.


I’m afraid your mites fell for the old free pedicure trick. It’s a classic.


----------



## squarepeg

if all the images are of the underside then david may be correct, within the limits of resolution it does appear that legs are missing.

either way, if those swarms did happen to issue from unmanaged colonies and go on to come out of winter in good shape you may have something worth working with there.

it would be interesting to see how 2 or 3 nucs from down here would fare at your location russ.


----------



## gww

russ
I don't know if this helps in any way. I like keeping track of the missouri thread like this and go back sometimes to see the difference in my first pollen between the years and such.

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?320917-Kentucky&highlight=kentucky

Cheers
gww


----------



## lharder

I had quite a bit of mite mauling on my bees when they were tested in 2016. It wasn't just my Saskatraz queens but also present in the Hawaiian grand daughters. I suspect its more prevalent than we think. Its nice to know that ongoing munching is happening. 

I would like to know more about grooming behaviours. I've observed bees grooming each other sometimes quite aggressively, and lines of bees grooming outside on a fence board for example. There are a range of possible mechanisms that would enhance basic grooming and remove mites from a colony.


----------



## msl

mauling or leg biting? what % ?


----------



## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> I’m afraid your mites fell for the old free pedicure trick. It’s a classic.





squarepeg said:


> if all the images are of the underside then david may be correct, within the limits of resolution it does appear that legs are missing.





msl said:


> mauling or leg biting? what % ?


David, Squarepeg and MSL:

While I certainly hope there is some grooming happening, I am going to reserve judgment until I can come up with a way to capture higher resolution photos to share with the group and let you all weigh-in too. Beyond that, grooming is only a benefit if it accompanies survival .

I in no way want to be a wet blanket, but I also don't want to jump to any premature conclusions.

Thank you all very much for your help and input. There is a 40 to 1000X digital microscope on Amazon for $20.99 with free shipping so I figured it was too good to pass up. Should be here next week and we can then all have a look at some hopefully high resolution mite photos.

Thank you again for your help and advice- I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

lharder said:


> There are a range of possible mechanisms that would enhance basic grooming and remove mites from a colony.


lharder:

Thank you for your input. I am grateful that you chimed-in, and I have really enjoyed reading your chronicles to-date.

Would you say that hygienic behavior is the most important aspect of your treatment-free success?

Thanks again for sharing- please feel welcome to share here anytime.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> it would be interesting to see how 2 or 3 nucs from down here would fare at your location russ.


Squarepeg:

I would be most glad to try your genetics up here. While our forage picture may be different than yours, I imagine our climate is not too drastically different than yours. We are considered Climate Zone 7a here. Are you 7b?

Thank you for all the help and advice- I really appreciate it!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I don't know if this helps in any way.


GWW:

The link you sent helps greatly! I subscribed to the tread and will plan on contributing as I see blooming here. 

Thank you again for sharing the link with me. I really appreciate it!

Russ


----------



## squarepeg

Litsinger said:


> I would be most glad to try your genetics up here. Are you 7b?


the first nucs made up this spring should be in mediums, and probably have fresh laying queens about mid-april or so weather permitting.

yes, zone 7b here.

awesome find on the microscope! i'll likely get one too if you have success with yours.

msl - i was considering mauling and leg biting to be one in the same, but i don't mind being corrected if there is some distinction between the two.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> the first nucs made up this spring should be in mediums, and probably have fresh laying queens about mid-april or so weather permitting.


That sounds great, Squarepeg. I am suprised they are in mediums (which is good for me ).

Do all nuc packages come with complementary nuc building lessons ?

I'll look forward to trialing your bees up here.

Thank you for all your help- and I'll let you know how the microscope works out...


----------



## msl

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?342357-mite-maulers

At least as its marketed
Leg biting is behavior, they bite off the legs as they are not strong enuf to crush the bodys. 
"mauling" requires both behavior and stronger mandibles 

however I am not seeing much work done on mauling

AUMEIER 2001 suggests it takes a bit to crush the body
_"No physical damage of these removed mites was visible, even if some bees had vigorously shaken and chewed the mites."_


----------



## squarepeg

Litsinger said:


> Do all nuc packages come with complementary nuc building lessons ?


of course. but only after one passes the very thorough application process to ensure the nucs are going to a good home, (which you have done).


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> ...but only after one passes the very thorough application process to ensure the nucs are going to a good home...


Squarepeg: I sincerely appreciate your confidence. I'm afraid if you asked the nucs I made this year, they would disagree with your assessment, however. 

That said, I did repent of making July nucs and made a mental note to never do that again (at least not the queen-less variety).

There is a lot to this beekeeping stuff...

Thanks again for all your help. I do appreciate it!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?342357-mite-maulers


MSL:

That's some cool stuff- thank you for sharing this link.

Russ


----------



## squarepeg

thanks msl, i had forgotten about that thread.

i believe mutilated legs are going to be the easier thing to look for.


----------



## Litsinger

The following article hyperlink from the January 2019 journal Apidologie was posted on another forum I follow and the study included several interesting observations, at least from my perspective. A few of the more notable from my reading included:

_"The results support the claim that smaller cell size can have an impact on V. destructor reproductive success, but this seems not to work in tandem with mite-surviving mechanisms favored by natural selection."_

_"These varying results provide evidence that there are parameters that have yet to be considered regarding V. destructor mite population dynamics in relation to the size of the brood cells."_

_"It should then be said that the cell size on which the bees were reared as well as the origin of the comb used should be taken into consideration when analyzing highly variable parameters such as overall colony mite infestation rate and V. destructor foundress fecundity."_

_"... natural selection has favored larger cell sizes in the temperate regions."_

_"Small cell size, though potentially useful in aiding the management of parasites, may not be the key factor in achieving treatment-free, mite-surviving bees in temperate climates."_

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s13592-018-0610-2.pdf


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> .....I did repent of making July nucs and made a mental note to never do that again (at least not the queen-less variety)....Russ


What about "never say never"?


I did exactly that - the July nucs and it worked out really well to propagate the two hopefully TF lines that I have.
A classic fly-back splitting did well for me (discount for accidentally squished mother queen in one of the hives).
I did loose one July nuc as I posted yesterday in my thread.
Still have remaining six July splits wintering normally so far.

NOTE: 
the "July" timing should be adjusted for your conditions; 
my "July" timing means exactly that - 4th of July holidays as per original OTS instructions, just because I closely match OTS author's zone.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> _"... natural selection has favored larger cell sizes in the temperate regions."_


I already provided documentation (I have it handy) that shows how the natural cell size of some native AMM populations in Russian regions is large (claimed to be *wild*, but for sure feral or a mix of both).
It is - *5.4-5.5mm* for new, foundation-less combs in log hives.
This is normal for them.
This being said, attempts to standardize bees of unknown/undefined origin (typical for N. America) either UP or DOWN will only cause unnecessary stress on them.
Let them build what the heck they want and focus on other issues.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> What about "never say never"?


GregV:

Great point- I suppose I was speaking with a bit of hyperbole when I made that statement, but in general for my specific locale early July is right in the heart of a significant time of dearth so I discovered that queenless colonies are almost immediately mercilessly harassed by robbers. Robbing screens largely knocked this issue down, but it presented an ever present danger. This, coupled with the ant pressure which was increased by supplemental feeding and the always looming threat of wax moths and small hive beetles made me think (in general):

1. Earlier nuc starts would be better- maybe a month sooner here.

2. Supplying nucs with more provisions (i.e. more bees, more stores and maybe even well-supported queen cells) would be much better all things equal.

These precepts were further distilled by some sage feedback by MSL here on this thread outlining research which suggests that better-provisioned colonies will raise better queens. 

If/when I am able to secure genetics that seem worthy of intentional propagation, I look forward to becoming well-acquainted with the art and science of successful nuc building.

Thanks again for your feedback- I enjoy reading your exploits on your thread.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Let them build what the heck they want and focus on other issues.


GregV:

Thank you for the input- I'm with you on this. While I have very little experience to compare it to, it seems logical to me to let them construct their nest in the manner that suits them, so long as it does not unduly impact one's ability to conduct manipulations as might be required.

Thank you as always for your insights- have a great day!

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> .....in general for my specific locale early July is right in the heart of a significant time of dearth...
> 
> Russ


So, Russ, you should figure out your own specific timing context, obviously.
Need to look at July conditions for southern MI/WI and see what the context is (including everything - flows, etc).
Then map it onto your locale.
It maybe for your particular place this really means.... start of June? mid-August? Don't know.
Even though the original OTS method insists on doing the "July" nuc after the summer solstice due to the bee biology, I am not too sure that is set in stone.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So, Russ, you should figure out your own specific timing context, obviously.


Thank you, GregV. You are exactly right. There is much I have to yet learn, though I am certainly becoming much more aware of seasonal cues.

While I am certain that the cost of my apicultural education will continue to be steep, I hope to at least not make the same mistake twice.

Thanks again for your help and encouragement. I sincerely appreciate it.

Russ


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## r2t2

I'm late getting to this thread - still exploring the site in general. 

Thanks for all the info that is being dumped here. Lots to think about.


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## Litsinger

r2t2 said:


> I'm late getting to this thread - still exploring the site in general.


R2T2:

Thank you for the feedback. I sincerely appreciate it!

I am glad you've joined in the conversation, and please feel welcome to chime in at anytime.

It seems that beekeeping is one of those arts that it is impossible to plumb the depths of what there is to learn.

Thanks again for commenting, and feel free to comment when you have something to share.

Have a great day.

Russ


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## lharder

msl said:


> mauling or leg biting? what % ?


The results I got back were classified as no, low, medium high damage

the results were 0 to 38 percent damaged, but the zeros were correlated with low mite drops to begin with. 22 to 38 percent with high mite drops.


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## lharder

Litsinger said:


> lharder:
> 
> Thank you for your input. I am grateful that you chimed-in, and I have really enjoyed reading your chronicles to-date.
> 
> Would you say that hygienic behavior is the most important aspect of your treatment-free success?
> 
> Thanks again for sharing- please feel welcome to share here anytime.
> 
> Russ


I wouldn't consider my results a success. Lots of room for improvement and lots to learn. I would say I have both vsh behaviour and mite biting in my population. I couldn't say which is more important, but I am happy to have both. Perhaps hygienic is more important in the brood rearing season, and biting during brood breaks and the winter to reduce the mite load going into spring. For hives that have very low mite counts it may be difficult to determine exactly what is the cause because of low sample size. The bees pre-empt the mites before they get going. The only mites you see are lucky random escapees.


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## Litsinger

lharder said:


> Lots of room for improvement and lots to learn.


lharder:

Thank you for your helpful reply- I have certainly learned much from reading your posts, so thank you for taking the time to share your insights.

I suppose if you have observed both VSH and mite-biting in your colonies, this portends encouraging signs for the future of beekeeping.

Thank you again, and best of success to you in 2019.

Russ


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## Litsinger

On Monday (1.7), I conducted mite counts on both hives while the weather was mild. This represented approximately 96 hours since the last count conducted on January 3rd. The results are as follows:

Hive 1803 - 11

Hive 1804 - 18

Today (1.9), I received my digital microscope and I have attached below five random mite images from Hive 1803:

































I will follow with five images from Hive 1804.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I will follow with five images from Hive 1804.


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## Litsinger

In the random observation category, Monday's high of approximately 68 degrees F had the hives frenetic with activity.

I noticed Hive 1804 working feverishly on the propolis surrounding their upper entrance, assuming they were further reducing the opening size.

Imagine my surprise when looking at the hive today I discovered they were busy removing rather than adding to it! 

This mind you is the hive that is clustered at the very top of the stack such that I can literally look through the upper entrance and see the top of the cluster.

Seems counter-intuitive...


----------



## trishbookworm

For me, the hard part about operating treatment free was not knowing where the slippery slope is between running OK, and a hive that will die soon if there isn't a treatment soon. I could measure the little buggers, and was so smug in May and even June and July when my counts were 2 or so... but then in August I was floored at the rapid rise in mite count. 19 mites out of 300 bees - from a hive that was split and had a low mite count after that in June!!!!

One thing I noticed later, about the time between June and August - when you would like some cues that things will be OK, or that things are going wrong, and get limited help from an alcohol wash - well, I noticed something weird about how many bees were covered the brood. 

You see, I had in all 6 hives like 10+ bars of brood (they are the size of Lang frames but were top bars). That's a healthy hive! Right? The pattern wasn't too spotty, either. But... the number of bars covered with bees ended right about one bar past those 10 frames of brood. So I had about 15 bars covered with bees (they had honey etc bars too, especially towards the front.

Well, it turns out that if you have 10 frames of brood, then in 2 weeks you should dang well have 20 frames covered with bees. That's because there are on the order of 4500 bees in a deep frame of brood, and when bees are sitting on a frame, it only holds 2000 or so bees. So every frame of brood represents about double the frames covered with bees.

I wasn't seeing that many bars covered with bees. At the time, I didn't know to expect that. Now, I look back and think that was a sign that the mites were getting the upper hand. I am guessing that the bee lifeline was being nibbled short by the mites, so they didn't live as long once they started foraging. It's a slippery slope because once the bees forage fewer days, then their sisters have to step up earlier to forage, and you can't continue that for long, or you will eventually lose your population of bees.

So, a large mismatch in midsummer between expected frames covered with bees - assuming that 2 frames covered should follow from 1 frame of brood for you hives too - could be a warning sign that things are tipping pretty far towards the mite. It may not be a sign that the hive will be overwhelmed by winter- but it was for my northern hives. I lost 50% (3/6) despite treating in Sept, Oct, Nov with OAV. 

And a hive with only 15 frames covered with bees will not produce much honey past their needs - those who are measuring honey production are indirectly tracking their population of bees, because only a surplus of bees can bring in a surplus of honey. At least, that's true in my area! I don't consider a 20 lb crop to be much to brag about.


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## GregB

trishbookworm said:


> ...I lost 50% (3/6) despite treating in Sept, Oct, Nov with OAV....


Good riddance as for me.
I do not need bees still dying after three OAV treatments.
On the positive balance, you hopefully have better material left for a rebuild.



trishbookworm said:


> ..hive with only 15 frames covered with bees will not produce much honey past their needs...


Hives with much fewer bees can produce fine crop.
The real issue is - those bees need to be well attuned locally so to expand/contract according to the local flows.
The largest workforce needs to drop off as soon as the main flow is done for your region (so that the harvested honey does not get eaten right away).
At least, this is how bees ought to operate in temperate zones - explode in time/shrink down in time.

I have one such hive - huge colony that kept propagating well into October (of course, they ate along their honey just as they were collecting it and just kept getting bigger; wintering on dry sugar now).
There were more than enough bees to harvest tons of honey. Wall to wall, so to speak.
Nada... Empty hive - they burned it all.
This one.


----------



## msl

> Hives with much fewer bees can produce fine crop.


that is just a silly statement 
crops are made by a population excess above what is needed for brood rearing.. that amount of bees needed is limited by the queens laying rate. Larger hives not only have a higher percentage of forgers, they have more of them and collect more nectar and a higher % of them die off when the hive shrinks down to winter size...


I find it odd that you would feed such a hive, Sounds like almond bees, propping up such poor genetics doesn't sound like your "good riddance" management 

Trish I see 20# as a fine harvest for a KTBH.... however my states yeild per hive advrage is about 1/2 you state...


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## Litsinger

trishbookworm said:


> For me, the hard part about operating treatment free was not knowing where the slippery slope is between running OK, and a hive that will die soon if there isn't a treatment soon.
> 
> Now, I look back and think that was a sign that the mites were getting the upper hand. I am guessing that the bee lifeline was being nibbled short by the mites, so they didn't live as long once they started foraging. It's a slippery slope because once the bees forage fewer days, then their sisters have to step up earlier to forage, and you can't continue that for long, or you will eventually lose your population of bees.


Trish:

Thank you for your helpful input- your reply is very insightful and I can easily follow the logic of your observations. While I don't yet have enough experience/history to refer back to, it is observations like yours that I am hoping to develop as baselines for comparison between years and between colonies as I hope to evaluate the prospect of a sustainable treatment-free apiary.

Do you find this visual cue still actionable when deciding when to treat your colonies or do you now make treatment decisions based strictly on mite counts, which I assume are now conducted at more frequent intervals in July and August?

I really do appreciate you sharing your knowledge, and please feel welcome to share here anytime.

Have a great evening.

Russ


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## GregB

msl said:


> that is just a silly statement ....
> Sounds like almond bees, propping up such poor genetics doesn't sound like your "good riddance" management
> .


Well, you don't know what you got until a bit later, don't you.
Welcome to swarm trapping.
Have to give them a chance to express themselves.

Good riddance it is - let me remind again - I do not *chemically *treat. 
If they still on-line in spring, well, they are a resource to be used.
If they die, there will be nothing there but dry sugar leftovers.

The same way I keep a float two-frame nuc by a heater still (but no chemicals) - if they still on-line, they are also a resource to be used.
If they are useless to me, they will be brooding up, nursing more mites, and will probably croak by spring - we'll see.

So, again, I had better crops from much smaller colonies than this useless monster (to be split in spring, if still on-line).
But need to configure the equipment some as I understand now better how that model works.


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## msl

GregV said:


> I had better crops from much smaller colonies than this useless monster (to be split in spring, if still on-line).
> .





GregV said:


> As of the moment, I hardly harvested any honey (only few pounds for the kids).
> The year has been bad.
> However, just a couple of strong dead-outs (sounds weird, ah?) should easily provide more than enough honey and uncontaminated perga for our annual consumption and give-away in lieu of rent payments.


are you using "crops" in the standard use of word as in excess over the hives survival being harvested , or are you talking honey from dead outs


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## squarepeg

russ, it looks like the inexpensive microscope is going to work.

it is clear that there is damage to the legs in your hive 2-4 image.

again, the small file size on the forum attachment prohibits enlarging for better detail. 

i'm pretty sure if you capture the images with good lighting and focus, using the largest file size the microscope software allows, and then blow them up on your computer screen, you should be able to discern if and to what degree there is leg damage.

what to do with that information is another matter. like you stated, having another metric might prove helpful going forward as you progress with your endeavors. i suggest reviewing the purdue publications and adopting a similar approach to quantifying the observations.

on another note, and with the recent attention being placed on to what degree drifting may play a role with the dispersion of mites within an apiary, i would consider scattering your hives about on the property, as well as coming up with some type of robber screen to place about the time you are entering your mid-season dearth period.


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## GregB

msl said:


> are you using "crops" in the standard use of word as in excess over the hives survival being harvested , or are you talking honey from dead outs


Both.
Will just post into my thread (polluting Russ's thread as-is already  ).


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## msl

:thumbsup:


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> i'm pretty sure if you capture the images with good lighting and focus, using the largest file size the microscope software allows, and then blow them up on your computer screen, you should be able to discern if and to what degree there is leg damage.


Squarepeg:

Thank you for your feedback- I really appreciate it! After I captured the latest photos, I discovered that this endoscope has a fine-tuning wheel on the USB cable, so I am hoping for better resolution photos next go-round.



squarepeg said:


> what to do with that information is another matter.


This is the $64,000 question isn't it? I concluded there is not much use in getting too worked-up over mite biting (or lack thereof) until such time as there are genetics in our apiary that appear to be persistent survivors. It is a fun and interesting academic exercise however, and I do hope that collecting these data may someday provide some clues about long-term colony success (or failure). 



squarepeg said:


> on another note, and with the recent attention being placed on to what degree drifting may play a role with the dispersion of mites within an apiary, i would consider scattering your hives about on the property, as well as coming up with some type of robber screen to place about the time you are entering your mid-season dearth period.


I've thought long and hard about both of these principles after reading your approach to a suffering hive in your apiary last year- and thought that the addition of a robbing screen was a genius stroke. Now, after reading lharder's recent commentary, it seems all the more prudent to be especially intentional in apiary layout and very proactive in the addition of robbing screens at the first signs of trouble- particularly in a dearth, and maybe also after any Fall flow but before the end of flying weather.

As always- I really appreciate your help and expert input. Have a great weekend.

Russ


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## squarepeg

Litsinger said:


> in the addition of robbing screens at the first signs of trouble- particularly in a dearth, and maybe also after any Fall flow but before the end of flying weather.


since you are in the early stages of building up your stock russ, it would be better not to wait until the first signs of trouble.

instead, be watching for the tapering off and end to the main nectar flow, (early july or so here), and consider placing screens on all hives.

i would also consider leaving them in place until the bees start their late winter brooding. make them easily removable so you can clear the entrances of dead bees from time to time.


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## mischief

I have a robber screen on my hive that has stayed there year round.
The bees have no trouble removing their dead with these on, they have more trouble with me opening the hatch to look through the window during the day, which seems to confuse those wanting to remove debris.


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## squarepeg

i attached my (mann lake produced) robber screens with one nail on each side only partially driven so that i can easily pry it off with the hive tool and then simply push it back on securely enough to stay put.

one hive with few dead at a time is removing them through the screen with no problem. the other hive experiencing more dead gets behind during long cold and/or wet spells.

i'll choose a non-flying day to help them out by removing the screen and raking out the dead.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I really do appreciate you sharing your knowledge, and please feel welcome to share here anytime.


Trish was gracious enough to send me a series of detailed and thoughtful observations via PM, and with her permission, I wanted to distill down three (3) observations I took away from our discussion that seem particularly applicable to a TF paradigm, knowing that these may all be quite obvious to all those who have been dealing with the scourge of varroa for a while:

1.	A sufficiently low early Spring varroa population is one key to long-term TF success- recognizing that this variable in-and-of-itself does not necessarily portend success.

2.	The predominant failure mode of a colony overrun with varroa is winter loss due to an insufficient winter bee population, compounded by “self-sacrificing” bees leaving the hive laden with phoretic mites.

3.	Natural mite drop values may not provide (particularly at higher relative mite loads) a complete picture of the overall varroa population dynamic but are likely still useful to monitor trends within and between hives. Trish referred me to the following article from Randy Oliver:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/tag/mite-drop/#natural-mite-drop-vs-alcohol-wash

Three take-aways from this article include:

A.	_"Practical application: I’ve lost faith in the natural mite drop as a means of monitoring mite levels. It is handy when used to determine whether a miticide gives a quick knock down, but not so much to indicate the biologically relevant level of mite infestation. If one does use stickyboards as their only monitoring method, might I suggest that you take counts over a period of time."_

B.	_"... at higher infestation rates, the consistency of the natural mite drop appears to fall apart (perhaps because of the number of variables involved)."_

C.	_"... natural mite drop substantially underestimated a serious infestation rate in the hive (more than 5 mites/100 bees)."_

Trish also explained how she utilizes Randy Oliver’s mite model to evaluate future mite population prospects against various control strategies.

All this got me thinking about the local climate/mite load nexus and how this dynamic might play-out in various regional contexts. This idea may have already been well explored, but:

1.	Would it be safe to assume that a colony located in a colder climate would start the year with a lower relative mite load than the same colony located in a warmer climate (all other things equal) due to the longer brood break?

2.	Would it be safe to assume that a colony located in a warmer climate would successfully overwinter with a lower winter bee population than the same colony located in a colder climate (all other things equal) due to more moderate ambient temperatures?

Just an interesting concept to consider relative to its implications for how adaptation might afford regional differences in genetic propensity based on the opportunities and challenges that the local climate affords.

In summary:

1.	Lower mite load > Higher mite load
2.	Larger winter bee population > Smaller winter bee population
3.	More frequent mite counts > Less frequent mite counts

Many thanks again to Trish for taking the time to share her input- and I give her free license to correct/add to anything stated above.


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> … consider placing screens on all hives.





mischief said:


> I have a robber screen on my hive that has stayed there year round.


Squarepeg and Mischief:

Thank you both very much for your input concerning robbing screens. I am giving serious consideration to the idea of proactively deploying them, but will you humor me by allowing me to outline the “cons” of such an approach and then invite you (and anyone else for that matter) to shoot my argument down?

My objections would be three (3):

1.	Efficiency- They seek to impede the steady flow of traffic into and out of the hive, and thus reduce the overall foraging efficiency of the hive where they are used. If Mr. Walt Wright were to comment, he might suggest that a robbing screen is, _“Another 5 Percenter”_... only this time to the negative. Corresponding to this, they exacerbate the potential for the entrance to become occluded in the Winter, endangering the hive.

2.	Cost- While I was likely taken for a ride, I bought five (5) robbing screens this Summer and each 8-frame model set-me back $17.25.

3.	Treatment-Free Implications- While nebulous, there is the idea that the indiscriminate use of robbing screens may serve over time to bend the process of natural selection away from colonies which exhibit heightened guard behavior.

All that said, I found Ms. Rusty Burlew’s treatment of robbing screens detailed and helpful:

https://honeybeesuite.com/the-undervalued-robbing-screen/

Some of her thoughts concerning both the timing and value of deploying robbing screens are as follows:

_“I install my screens just before honey harvest because harvesting can sometimes begin a robbing spree. Then I leave the screens on until the fall when cold weather keeps the bees inside.

However, with nucs, splits, and captured swarms, I use a robbing screen from day one. These colonies are often small enough to get attacked by robbers during early spring or when there is a temporary lull in the nectar flow. I used to worry about those small colonies, but now I just add the screens pro-actively.”_

_“One of the overlooked advantages of a robbing screen is that it keeps out drifting bees as well. This can have a significant impact on varroa control. We know that drifting bees are one of the primary means of varroa dissemination. Drones especially are not very particular about where they bed down for the night, and they can easily travel from one hive to another. And because they’re drones, they’re usually allowed in.

If your colony is already overrun with mites, this might not make much difference. Perhaps you lose a few mites when drones leave, and you gain a few mites when drones arrive. However, if your mites are under control, drifting bees can make a huge difference.

In fact, if you have no mites to start with, one foundress mite can multiply into a sizeable infestation in one season. But if three foundress mites move in, they can produce three times as many mites in the same length of time. Multiple and repeated introductions can overwhelm even mite-resistant bees.

To me, it seems that robbing screens should be part of an IPM program to keep varroa under control. It is an additional technique we can use that is inexpensive, easy to implement, and chemical free. When paired with other IPM techniques, robbing screens can be a useful mite control tool.”_


----------



## mischief

I decided to put the robber screens on even before I got my hive, simply because we have a high paper wasp population.
Mine has one side that both top and bottom are wide open, the other side has a wide top and a very narrow top- about an inch wide.
Up until recently, I had the wide open side up against the hive but used a bit of broken pallet to block this down to a bee space at each end during the summer dearth.
This spring, when I saw how mismanaged the hive was, I turned it around so that the very small entrance/exit was at the top. It stayed that way til I could clearly see that it was causing a traffic jam. 
Up until then, what i noticed was that the bees had organised themselves so that they walked up the robber screen to fly out and landed at mainly one end, walked along the top next to the wall and down the hive wall to go in, so there was a very orderly entranceway.

This year, when i saw the traffic jam, I decided to see how they would cope with the wasps on their own and removed the screen.
So far, they have dealt with them very well or though I have to admit that I still have my wasp-smacking paddle that i use when I am sitting next to the hive and some stoopid wasp sits right down in front of me.

For now, my once very small colony is a reasonably good size and doesnt seem to need the screen at the moment. So far, we dont seem to have a dearth at this time of year like we did last year, but I still monitor the entranceway just in case it does need to go back on.


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## Litsinger

mischief said:


> For now, my once very small colony is a reasonably good size and doesnt seem to need the screen at the moment. So far, we dont seem to have a dearth at this time of year like we did last year, but I still monitor the entranceway just in case it does need to go back on.


Mischief:

Thank you for your response. I sincerely appreciate it! I suppose you are right in the thick of your Summer season now, and it sounds like everything is going well? I do appreciate your reply, and have a great day.

Russ


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## Litsinger

I was recently made aware of an article which was published in the September 2018 journal _PLOS One _ which was attempting to evaluate the effects of pollen nutrition on egg laying:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0203444&type=printable

Here are a handful of the more notable observations from the article (at least for me):

_"We therefore hypothesized that HPG_ [hypopharyngeal glands] _development and egg laying... can be manipulated through worker pollen feeding, and that feeding caged bees bee bread will result in higher egg laying and HPG development relative to commercially sourced pollen."_

_"The results... indicate that provisioning QMCs_ [Queen Monitoring Cages] _with bee bread can positively influence queen egg laying... frozen bee bread resulted in nearly 3 times more eggs than 45% pollen paste."_

_"Bee bread was also shown to positively affect the size of worker bee hypopharyngeal glands (HPGs), suggesting a mechanism for the effect of worker nutrition on queen egg laying."_

_"... the results... strongly suggest that worker HPG development influences queen egg laying productivity."_

_"These results suggest that the egg laying of the honey bee queen is dependent on worker nutrition, providing another example by which the colony functions as a superorganism."_

_"QMCs provisioned with frozen bee bread had higher average HPG gland sizes. This may be because freezing plant material degrades the cell wall components, potentially making pollen easier to digest."_


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## trishbookworm

Oh dear, I don't really know how this "quote" thing works: so I'm using actual quotes. 

"Trish was gracious enough to send me a series of detailed and thoughtful observations via PM, and with her permission, I wanted to distill down three (3) observations I took away from our discussion that seem particularly applicable to a TF paradigm, knowing that these may all be quite obvious to all those who have been dealing with the scourge of varroa for a while:

1.	A sufficiently low early Spring varroa population is one key to long-term TF success- recognizing that this variable in-and-of-itself does not necessarily portend success.

2.	The predominant failure mode of a colony overrun with varroa is winter loss due to an insufficient winter bee population, compounded by “self-sacrificing” bees leaving the hive laden with phoretic mites.

3.	Natural mite drop values may not provide (particularly at higher relative mite loads) a complete picture of the overall varroa population dynamic but are likely still useful to monitor trends within and between hives. "

Nice summary! I really appreciate the questing and let's-try-this spirit that is flying through this thread. I love to surf thru the TF discussions, because they are thinking outside the box - maybe people with bees that are TF, or anyways mite resistant, actually have less virulent mites! or less virulent viruses. Those are possibilities that come up here.

I have not seen success here in NE OH with TF beekeeping. I have seen successful beekeeping, where there is 10% or so losses over winter, and the bees can make a honey crop the following year. That's my definition of success. And those 3 points relate to my definition for success. 

The dynamics of hive growth and mite growth seem to be pretty different for those who have a shorter break from incoming pollen - and the tenets for successful beekeeping will be different. 

I do question those who are not treating for mites as to whether their populations are getting large enough - as in, beyond 2 deeps covered in bees - and then resulting in a honey crop of note (50 lbs is avg here in OH). If a beek is not seeing those populations, well, sometimes it's a relief. They won't overwhelm the hive body and try to swarm, less intimidating - as long as at least 1 in 2 hives survive for the backyard beekeeper, right? So, there are different ways of looking at successful beekeeping. 

I'm just aware that here we have to be checking for a massive mite incursion after each fly day in the late fall, because when my hives go robbing, it can kill them. When my hives go robbing, I won't breed from the robbers, but that's not much help for THIS winter.  I sure hope there is a heritable component of that behavior... I think it is pretty important for having "mite resistant" bees. And they may well be robbing a nearby feral colony - or a neighboring beekeeper. It doesn't matter. It's on me to have due diligence to manage my bees to my own ends. 

OK, just wanted to clarify that there are clearly pathways to successful TF beekeeping with higher mite counts than NE OH can handle - or than my bees in their current form can handle. People in the TF forum have documented their varroa counts being over 3% in the fall and having adequate hive survival come spring. It just doesn't happen in my apiary - 50% survival is not adequate for me, at any rate.


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## squarepeg

squarepeg said:


> i would consider scattering your hives about on the property, as well as coming up with some type of robber screen to place _about the time_ you are entering your mid-season dearth period.





Litsinger said:


> Efficiency- They seek to impede the steady flow of traffic into and out of the hive, and thus reduce the overall foraging efficiency of the hive where they are used. If Mr. Walt Wright were to comment, he might suggest that a robbing screen is, _“Another 5 Percenter”_... only this time to the negative.


i don't know if you flows are very similar to mine russ, but if so and by the time you are entering the mid season dearth period most of your harvestable honey will have already been put up.

robbing is pretty rare when there is a good nectar flow, but during times of dearth there is not much else for the foragers to do and there tends to be an uptick of at least attempted robbing then.

rusty's approach to placing them before harvesting honey is a good idea, especially when harvesting after the flow winds down. oftentimes there is burr comb drawn between supers and filled with honey. this gets broken open when harvesting and the smell of exposed honey is a strong attraction to robbers.

i mentioned in another post how i nailed the robber screens on but only drove the nails in part of the way. mounted like this the screens are quickly removed with a hive tool and any dead bees accumulating at the entrance can be raked out with a twig or piece of stiff weed eater line. likewise the screens can be pushed back on place by hand and are 'stuck' good enough to stay put.

weekly has been often enough to do this, and only one of the two hives i have screened has even needed my help removing dead bees.

i wouldn't worry too much about bending the selection process at this point in the journey. it's more important to build up the hive count and have some wintering successes.


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## clong

trishbookworm said:


> I'm just aware that here we have to be checking for a massive mite incursion after each fly day in the late fall, because when my hives go robbing, it can kill them. When my hives go robbing, I won't breed from the robbers, but that's not much help for THIS winter.  I sure hope there is a heritable component of that behavior... I think it is pretty important for having "mite resistant" bees. And they may well be robbing a nearby feral colony - or a neighboring beekeeper. It doesn't matter. It's on me to have due diligence to manage my bees to my own ends.


This raises an interesting question: How do I identify a hive that is robbing out another? Especially if it is robbing outside my own beeyard?


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## squarepeg

clong said:


> This raises an interesting question: How do I identify a hive that is robbing out another? Especially if it is robbing outside my own beeyard?


in that late fall or at anytime there is little to no nectar flow, you can recognize that one of your hives is going out on a robbing spree if there is a whole lot of coming and going from a particular hive or two when there is not much activity with other hives in the yard, especially if all the coming and going is to and from one particular direction.

the robbers come back with their abdomens plumped up, and sometimes will be carrying a small piece of wax in their mandibles.


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## clong

squarepeg said:


> the robbers come back with their abdomens plumped up, and sometimes will be carrying a small piece of wax in their mandibles.


This is very helpful. Thanks.

I've tried to see the "plump" bellies when a flow is on, but I just can't quite spot them. I have noticed that overloaded bees often fail to stick their landings, and fall down below the hive.


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## GregB

clong said:


> This raises an interesting question: How do I identify a hive that is robbing out another? Especially if it is robbing outside my own beeyard?


I had a case when a hive was very, very busy late into evenings - very unusual - I thought then - wow, some flow is really on.
I also saw the direction of there flights - was very well defined direction - direction of my other yard.
Well, subsequently, I found one of my own hives on the neighboring yard failed due to mites and "absconded", and it was robbed out clean.

Unfortunately, that incident took place in late August/early September - high activity season.
Looking back now, I think that robbing activity contributed to my very high loss rate that winter (last winter, that is).

Lesson learned - as soon as one notices a crashing hive - * screen it immediately * (SP already spoke about this method many times).
Also, the robbing bees will fly really early/really late/with well defined direction - pretty obvious when you see it (especially, if there is a general dearth in your area).

Fortunately, this season all of my losses occurred post season - no robbing.


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## squarepeg

GregV said:


> ...the robbing bees will fly really early/really late/with well defined direction...


yes, this too.


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## Litsinger

trishbookworm said:


> I really appreciate the questing and let's-try-this spirit that is flying through this thread. I love to surf thru the TF discussions, because they are thinking outside the box - maybe people with bees that are TF, or anyways mite resistant, actually have less virulent mites! or less virulent viruses. Those are possibilities that come up here.


Trish: Thank you for your reply- I think the bulk of the value in this thread is as a direct result of the gracious and helpful input from experienced practitioners like yourself who are providing such excellent and experience-based advice and feedback. Thank you.

While I haven't extensive experience to base this on, my opinion based on what I have read in TF circles is that "all of the above" may be in play depending upon both where one lives and what the managed bee population density looks like in your area - it may even vary from year-to-year and yard-to-yard. My take-away from this is that one cannot project success (nor failure for that matter) based on someone else's results nor expect what might be working for you by extension is going to work for others. At least it introduces an exciting element of the unknown as one experiments in a TF setting. 



trishbookworm said:


> I have seen successful beekeeping, where there is 10% or so losses over winter, and the bees can make a honey crop the following year. That's my definition of success. And those 3 points relate to my definition for success.





trishbookworm said:


> They won't overwhelm the hive body and try to swarm, less intimidating - as long as at least 1 in 2 hives survive for the backyard beekeeper, right? So, there are different ways of looking at successful beekeeping.


I appreciate these sentiments because they remind me that each of us gets to define success in our beekeeping endeavors, and frees us up to let other people define what works for them too. That said, I do believe in the "Golden Rule" and think it is important to be a good neighbor, both to our fellow beekeepers and the public-at-large. This is what has caused me to seriously consider (with a lot of help from this forum) how to mitigate the potential for failing TF hives to potentially do harm to my neighboring beeks. 



trishbookworm said:


> The dynamics of hive growth and mite growth seem to be pretty different for those who have a shorter break from incoming pollen - and the tenets for successful beekeeping will be different.





trishbookworm said:


> People in the TF forum have documented their varroa counts being over 3% in the fall and having adequate hive survival come spring.


I am just now beginning to consider the implications of this- based on your thoughts on the matter. It seems plain to me that we will have a shorter pollen (and brood) break here than you will (for example) - and it seems logical to assume that this longer break / lower mite interaction might have some bearing on the relative importance of various TF tenants (both genetic and manipulative) based on your locale.



trishbookworm said:


> I'm just aware that here we have to be checking for a massive mite incursion after each fly day in the late fall, because when my hives go robbing, it can kill them. When my hives go robbing, I won't breed from the robbers, but that's not much help for THIS winter.  I sure hope there is a heritable component of that behavior... I think it is pretty important for having "mite resistant" bees. And they may well be robbing a nearby feral colony - or a neighboring beekeeper. It doesn't matter. It's on me to have due diligence to manage my bees to my own ends.


This thought regarding robbing being a possible “tipping point” for large-scale varroa collapse seems to continue to rise to the surface, and it seems to be another beekeeper management technique which at worst would fall into the “can’t hurt” category? I really am interested as well to know if robbing propensity is a heritable trait -it seems anecdotally many successful TF beekeepers report relatively low robbing intensity.


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> i don't know if you flows are very similar to mine russ, but if so and by the time you are entering the mid season dearth period most of your harvestable honey will have already been put up.
> 
> i mentioned in another post how i nailed the robber screens on but only drove the nails in part of the way. mounted like this the screens are quickly removed with a hive tool and any dead bees accumulating at the entrance can be raked out with a twig or piece of stiff weed eater line. likewise the screens can be pushed back on place by hand and are 'stuck' good enough to stay put.
> 
> i wouldn't worry too much about bending the selection process at this point in the journey. it's more important to build up the hive count and have some wintering successes.


Squarepeg:

I sincerely appreciate your reply, and I wanted to let you know that I wasn't ignoring your previous advice on the subject. As you might have surmised by post, I was playing "Devil's Advocate" for a bit to help facilitate the discussion and hopefully gain in understanding. That said, I really am grateful for your feedback.

You are correct (as usual) that our flow is similar to yours, though we did have a fairly nice Fall flow this year.

I actually deployed robbing screens this year on my two ill-fated nucs who faced intense robbing pressure. They seemed to perform adequately well during the Summer and Fall and the only real problems emerged when I decided they were no longer needed and took them off- bad idea. It did however teach me that you can employ "Stockholm Syndrome" on captive robbers- they will join their would-be victims after 72 hours...

The screens I purchased are held on with two screws, and given that I typically carry a multi-tool on my person, it was no trouble through the late Fall / early Winter to remove them periodically and clean-out the dead blocking the entrance. I surmise had these nucs had entrances larger than two bee widths, this problem would have been less of an issue.

To your point, I see little concern with deploying robbing screens on all production hives in the dearth and then again after the Fall flow. If nothing else, it seems it would remove a variable (i.e. incoming robbing mite transfer) as a potential failure mode in a TF management setting.

Thanks again for all your help, and for humoring my questions.

Russ


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> I've tried to see the "plump" bellies when a flow is on, but I just can't quite spot them. I have noticed that overloaded bees often fail to stick their landings, and fall down below the hive.


I am with clong on this one- I do hope to improve my observational skills in the future.

Thank you for the advice.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Lesson learned - as soon as one notices a crashing hive - * screen it immediately * (SP already spoke about this method many times). Also, the robbing bees will fly really early/really late/with well defined direction - pretty obvious when you see it (especially, if there is a general dearth in your area).


Good stuff, GregV. I appreciate this feedback. Now I'm off to watch that Russian speaking video...


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## mischief

I would suggest screwing the robber screens in place rather than nailing them.
Just needs a cordless drill and produces very little noise or vibrations.
My robber screen sits on a landing board that also has sides. On each of these sides are clips to hold the screen in place.


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## Litsinger

mischief said:


> My robber screen sits on a landing board that also has sides. On each of these sides are clips to hold the screen in place.


This sounds like a good set-up to allow for easy installation and removal- something to consider. How is the season shaping-up for you thus far?


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## squarepeg

Fusion_power said:


> SP, from your request, I found a highly mite resistant queen in 2004 that wintered exceptionally well. This was in a swarm caught just north of Rainsville, AL. Traits were strongly suggestive of A.M.m. background genetics. I purchased queens from Purvis which produced drones and raised queens from my mite resistant queen. Then in 2006 and 2008, I deliberately pushed my hives to swarm releasing about 40 or 50 swarms into the area. From that point forward, I've had feral bees in the area as a buffer so that queens get mated with mite resistant drones most of the time. Why not in 2007? We had a freeze April 7th 2007 that killed most of the spring bloom resulting in zero swarming.


russ, i had asked fusion_power to post about this with you in mind. depending on what you determine the local strain of bee you have there is like, and depending on how willing you are to sacrifice some honey production in the first seasons, and depending on how much confidence you have in your survivors and/or survivor stock you may import, this is something worth considering as a means to promoting survivor genetics in and around your location.


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> depending on what you determine the local strain of bee you have there is like, and depending on how willing you are to sacrifice some honey production in the first seasons, and depending on how much confidence you have in your survivors and/or survivor stock you may import, this is something worth considering as a means to promoting survivor genetics in and around your location.


Squarepeg:

Thank you very much for your generosity in this regard- I sincerely appreciate it. For what it is worth, I think this is a great idea in concept. Depending upon how the swarm traps do this year, I may be facing a shortage of boxes ready to deploy (I have 95 currently but only 20 painted at present)- which would allow me to afford losing a few swarms to the trees.

That said, if I've learned one thing about beekeeping, it is to not count your chickens until they've hatched. So- let's see if my current hives overwinter, I catch any swarms and I can manage to keep what I've caught alive .

Thanks again for all your help and advice- I feel quite confident that you have saved me from myriad mistakes!


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## Litsinger

Someone posted an article from Kirk Webster on another TF forum I frequent entitled, _"What's Missing From The Current Discussion And Work Related To Bees That's Preventing Us From Making Good Progress?"_ (http://kirkwebster.com/index.php/wh...thats-preventing-us-from-making-good-progress)

The crux of his treatise was broken-down into four (4) main points- which I've attempted to summarize as follows. While his writings are always a bit esoteric, it seems hard to argue with his results.

_1. The Element of Wildness---we need to learn how to utilize the things we don't know, can't know, about Nature, as well as the things we do know (or think we know).

... what we really need now is to bring wildness back to the farms, suburbs, and cities where we spend most of our time, and to cultivate more Wildness in all of these places.
We need to breed bees along these lines in order to create diverse regional populations that are stable, resilient, and easy to care for...

2. Farmers---People who make a nice life for themselves by working and living closely every day with their own crops and livestock, are almost extinct in N. America---but they are the only ones who can solve our current problems, and the only way to produce good food and keep society stable in an energy-poor future.

The most important thing we['ve] lost... [is] the slowly accumulated experience, wisdom, and reverence of people who worked with living things day after day over many generations. There is no other way to obtain this kind of knowledge---which of necessity includes all the unknown mysteries of Nature, as well as what can be scientifically demonstrated---except by having teachers who lived in this tradition, and by paying attention as you live the same way yourself.

3. Using "Horizontal" breeding methods instead of "Vertical" methods---for bees, crops, and other livestock.

One of the most important tools used by successful farmers since before the dawn of history was the use of "Horizontal" methods of plant breeding and selection, as opposed to the "Vertical" methods used by most modern plant breeders.

Crop varieties that are developed by "Horizontal" methods---for reasons that are not entirely clear---have resistance to pests and diseases that are based on several factors working together, and have much greater stability, resilience and productivity over the long run, than varieties developed by "Vertical" methods.

My own methods of propagating, selecting and breeding bees, worked out through many years of trial and error, are really just an attempt to establish and utilize Horizontal breeding with honeybees---to create a productive system that preserves and enhances the elements of Wildness. My results are not perfect, but they have enabled me to continue making a living from bees without much stress, and have a positive outlook for the future. I have no doubt that many other beekeepers could easily achieve these same results, and then surpass them.

4. The Element of Mind---we're stuck in a mindset that's harmful and destructive to everything we touch---especially ourselves. Yet, this mindset represents only a fraction of what we're capable of.

When the Mind can make this transition, and function from a place of compassion, humility, and generosity; a whole new type of farming (and beekeeping) is born. Farmers can use Horizontal breeding methods to reestablish the intimate relationship between crops, livestock and people; within which the element of Wildness can be preserved and allowed to protect us all. In time the process becomes increasingly "self-organized", as more things are accomplished with biological energy and Nature's self-knowledge..._


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## mischief

Litsinger said:


> Mischief:
> 
> Thank you for your response. I sincerely appreciate it! I suppose you are right in the thick of your Summer season now, and it sounds like everything is going well? I do appreciate your reply, and have a great day.
> 
> Russ


Yep, I am really pleased with how they have bounced back from the brink and just hope I get better at looking after them.
They have gone from 3 seams of bees with 2x2inches of sad looking capped brood to wall to wall brood on a number of frames and now have 29 frames, some (about 5) of which I just put in so they didnt swarm.
I did another OAV with 1 mite drop and will do another in a couple of days.


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## Litsinger

mischief said:


> ...to wall to wall brood on a number of frames and now have 29 frames, some (about 5) of which I just put in so they didnt swarm.


Mischief:

Glad to hear your hive has progressed well and that this Summer has been a good one. We're in for our first really cold weather of the season this weekend, so I am becoming more and more anxious for a little warm weather!


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> Russ I suggest you spend some time reading... Seeley Morse 1986 Bait hives for honey bees  https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/handle/1813/2653/Bait Hives for Honey Bees.pdf


In GregV’s Primitive beekeeping thread, MSL posted two articles he suggested I read (thank you, MSL) relative to a discussion of bait hives, and I’ve elected to post my observations from the articles here so as not to take GregV’s thread off-topic. Here is the summary of Dr. Seeley’s recommendations from 1989:

Recommendations for Bait Hive Design

_1.	Height: about 15 feet above the ground.
2.	Shade and Visibility: well-shaded, but highly visible.
3.	Distance from Parent Nest: not important.
4.	Total Entrance Area: about 1½ to 2 square inches; a circular opening about 1¼ inch in diameter is suggested.
5.	Entrance Shape: not important.
6.	Entrance Position: near the floor of the hive.
7.	Entrance Direction: facing south preferred, but other directions are acceptable.
8.	Cavity Volume: about 40 liters.
9.	Cavity Shape: not important.
10.	Dryness and Airtightness: dry and snug, especially at the top.
11.	Type of Wood: various types acceptable; many types of trees have been occupied. Bees may avoid new lumber.
12.	Odor: the odor of beeswax is attractive… chemical lures that smell like lemon grass and apparently mimic the scouts’ communication scents apparently work well and can be used in bait hives of any shape. _

I was curious how these recommendations compared with his recommendations contained in Table 3.1 of “Honeybee Democracy”, and they appear to remain similar.


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## gww

Russ
I am not going to put the traps higher then I can reach with both feet on the ground. Been there and done that and it may be better but not better enough when compared to what is better for me. The other thing for me is ease of removal and replacing of the trap. You answered your point in the two things of seeleys that you referred seem to say pretty close to the same thing. In my mind, one was saying how he conducted his test and two was saying what he used to set up his swarm test. This may be over simplification by me.
Cheers
gww


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## squarepeg

the trees i select to mount my swarm traps to are the ones i can back my pick up truck to. then, working out of the back of my truck the traps end up being about 7 - 8 feet off the ground. i have found it to be a good compromise between 'ideal' and 'workable'.


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## JWPalmer

My first swam landed in a double flower pot trap 3' off the ground hanging in the shade of a large grapevine. Another swarm hit a box I made following Dr. Leo Sharashkin's plans. It was about 7' off the ground and wedged in the fork of a small tree. A trap of the same design in my bee yard got another one, but because it was 12' off the ground strapped to a large pine tree, I did not get it down in time to notice that the virgin queen failed to return. I could have requeened it had I been paying better attention and had a peek inside. Hard to do when high up in a tree.


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## Litsinger

It is cold, wet and dreary here so I took the opportunity to quickly gather a few mites from both hives to experiment a bit more with the cheap endoscope I bought.

Comparing them to the photos included in the following article that Squarepeg posted (https://www.beeculture.com/breeding-mite-biting-bees-to-control-varroa/) and learning more than I ever wanted to know about mite anatomy (http://idtools.org/id/mites/beemites/glossary.php) and acknowledging the images are still not as detailed as I would like, it seems plain that there are a some mites which appear to have:

1. Missing appendages (tarsus).
2. Missing or damaged mouthparts (chelicerae).
3. Missing or damaged claws (ambulacrum).

As lharder mentioned in a previous post, I wonder if this behavior is more common than we anticipate, but we may not be looking for it?

I will post representative photos in two posts to follow.


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## Litsinger

Here are representative mite photos from Hive 1803. Based on these and previous photos taken, it seems that this colony has more pronounced evidence of mite damage versus Hive 1804.


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## Litsinger

Here are representative mite photos from Hive 1804. One neat aspect of this evaluation is that Mite #1 is still alive at present and I can observe the appendages moving to get a better sense of damage- it appears this mite has at least two pretarsus segments missing.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I am not going to put the traps higher then I can reach with both feet on the ground.





squarepeg said:


> ... working out of the back of my truck the traps end up being about 7 - 8 feet off the ground. i have found it to be a good compromise between 'ideal' and 'workable'.





JWPalmer said:


> Hard to do when high up in a tree.


GWW, Squarepeg and JWPalmer:

Thank you all for the sage advice- I sincerely appreciate your input. Last year, I set-out two swarm traps (made out of two 10-frame mediums- 59 liters), and they both ended up with the entrance between 7 and 8 feet off the ground- and both were successful- so coupling that with your experience it sounds like a height in this range is a good practical working elevation.

The context for the post was comparing the 'ideal’ swarm volume outlined in Eastern European experience of approximately 60 liters with Dr. Seeley’s recommendation of approximately 40 liters. Either way, it appears that a volume between that of a single 10-frame deep (43 liters) or two 8-frame mediums (49 liters) is a good minimum swarm trap volume to work around with volumes up to (and maybe more than) 60 liters being suitable as well.

Thank you all again for the input- I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


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## clong

Litsinger said:


> Here is the summary of Dr. Seeley’s recommendations from 1989:
> 
> Recommendations for Bait Hive Design
> 
> _1.	Height: about 15 feet above the ground.
> 2.	Shade and Visibility: well-shaded, but highly visible.
> ...
> 12.	Odor: the odor of beeswax is attractive… chemical lures that smell like lemon grass and apparently mimic the scouts’ communication scents apparently work well and can be used in bait hives of any shape. _
> View attachment 45585


Russ,

I would add the following:

Height: This is overrated, in my opinion. In any case, like others have pointed out, safety is far more important. Limit the height to what you can reach from a truck bed, or a 6 foot ladder.
Odor: Smear a new trap with propolis on the inside walls, if available.
Location: Place the swarm trap near water when possible. Streams, ponds, and puddles all count. Maybe even bird baths.

The trap below has caught 5 swarms in the last two years:









It seems like a less-than-ideal location, but the swarms move in anyway.


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## gww

russ
If my memory is correct, seeley only gave the bees a choice of 10 liter, 40 liter and 100 liter. The bees faced with that choice picked 40 liter overwhelmingly.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> Odor: Smear a new trap with propolis on the inside walls, if available.
> 
> Location: Place the swarm trap near water when possible. Streams, ponds, and puddles all count. Maybe even bird baths.
> 
> It seems like a less-than-ideal location, but the swarms move in anyway.


Clong:

Great feedback- I sincerely appreciate your input. The bit about water is a good one. 

It sounds like you've got a great swarm trapping spot- and it looks like it is close to a driveway, so I imagine that makes it particularly convenient to monitor and subsequently transport.

Thank you again for the advice- I do appreciate it!

Russ


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> If my memory is correct, seeley only gave the bees a choice of 10 liter, 40 liter and 100 liter. The bees faced with that choice picked 40 liter overwhelmingly.


GWW:

Good memory- you are exactly correct (Referring to his 1976 - 1977 swarm catching project project):

Page 54- _“...to test for a preference in cavity size, I set up trios of cubical nest boxes that were identical except that one box had the typical cavity volume of 40 liters while the other two boxes had volumes at the two tails of the distribution of nest cavity volumes: 10 and 100 liters.”_

There were also a few other interesting volume observations made in the book:

Page 34- _“Regarding storage space, given that it takes 250 square centimeters of honeycomb to store one kilogram of honey (i.e., 18 square inches of comb per pound of honey), and given that every 250 square centimeters of honeycomb require about 0.9 liters of nest cavity space (to accommodate the honey-filled comb and the adjacent passageways for the bees), we can calculate that the storage of 20 kilograms (44 pounds) of honey requires a nesting cavity of at least some 18 liters (4 gallons). Thus we can see that when a colony chooses its future homesite, it will need to reject tree cavities smaller than these volumes.”_

Page 51- _“The average nest cavity was only about 20 centimeters (8 inches) in diameter and 150 centimeters (60 inches) tall; hence, it had a volume of only about 45 liters (41 quarts).”_

Page 102- _“Each one had a cavity volume of 40 liters, but this could be reduced to 20, 15, or 10 liters by placing an inner wall in the appropriate location…”_

So I suppose the only volumes that Dr. Seeley has not published findings on are those above 40 liters but below 100 liters.

Thanks again for your input- and your memory is razor sharp! I wish mine were that keen...

Russ


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## Litsinger

I took the opportunity to read the other article that MSL suggested:

_THE NEST OF THE HONEY BEE (APIS MELLIFERA L.) _ - December 1976
By T. D. SEELEY and R. A. MORSE 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269996264_The_nest_of_the_honey_bee_Apis_mellifera_L

There were three (3) predominant themes that I found interesting:

1.	Hive Volume

_Most are 30 to 60 liters in volume and at the base of trees. Nest entrances tend to be small, 10 to 40 cm 2, and at the nest bottom.

Figure 2 shows the distribution of nest volumes. The distribution approximates a normal distribution about the median volume of 45 liters._









2.	Hive Organization

_The general organization of the nest seemed to reflect the pattern of comb attachment to the cavity walls. In these approximately cylindrical nests, honey was stored in the upper and peripheral nest regions. The brood nest was below the honey and toward the center of the nest. Pollen was between brood and honey (fig. 3).

We found drone comb on the edges of brood nests, sometimes as a peripheral band on an inner comb (fig. 3), other times as an entire outer comb.

Nests contained up to eight combs. Combs were generally planar and in parallel alignment, but deviations from planarity were observed._









3.	Hive Entrances

_The mean distance between an entrance's outer opening and the nest cavity was 15.3 cm. 

Nest entrances tended to be near the nest bottom.

Figure 6 shows that most entrances were at or near ground level. This distribution also represents the distribution of nest heights since nest cavities were generally immediately adjacent to nest entrances. The predominance of ground level nests probably reflects a predominance of tree cavities at the bases of trees. Alternatively, bees may select ground level cavities for their presumed greater shelter and sturdiness relative to cavities higher in trees._


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## GregB

Regarding "The Nest of the Honey bee".

Here is an example of the data based on predominantly secondary growth forest (smaller trees - smaller cavities, etc).
My sources are based on the older growth forest because of the mountains region with poor access for logging.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Regarding "The Nest of the Honey bee".
> 
> Here is an example of the data based on predominantly secondary growth forest (smaller trees - smaller cavities, etc).
> My sources are based on the older growth forest because of the mountains region with poor access for logging.


Good point, GregV. I appreciate the feedback. Sounds like a test of 45, 60 and 80 liter swarm traps is in order- any takers? 

Thanks for bringing-out this distinction.

Russ


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## Litsinger

We had our first significant snowfall of the year on Friday night (1.18) which held the bottom entrances closed until this afternoon.

I noticed a fair bit of dead bees snowbound in hive 1804, so I decided to experiment with Juhani's and Squarepeg's trick of checking for phoretic mites on the dead bees.

I brought in all the dead bees (a small handful) and immersed them in an alcohol solution, swirling around to help dislodge any mites. I then let the bees soak for about 30 minutes.

Coming back, I pulled each bee out individually with tweezers (there were 44 in total). There were no mites in the alcohol.

Hive 1803 only had two dead bees at the entrance so I did not evaluate them.


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## Litsinger

A recent video making the rounds on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/gardeningaustralia/videos/294040341296625/) intrigued me and got me thinking afresh about genetic diversity within our existing honeybee stock in the Eastern United States.

The video is a trailer for an Australian documentary due to air this week entitled, _“The Great Australian Bee Challenge”_ where University of Sydney entomologist Dr. Tanya Latty (http://www.tanyalatty.com/) and urban beekeeping advocate Mr. Doug Purdie (https://theurbanbeehive.com.au/) _“… challenge four families to successfully keep a honeybee hive, bringing these everyday Australians up close to the very latest science about bee brains, communication and behaviour.”_

In the video they mention that their drone trapping research suggests there are approximately 110 colonies living within a 3 kilometer radius of the University of Sydney, which seems like quite a significant and diverse gene pool to draw from.

Recognizing that Australia has not yet had to deal with the varroa mite, it is interesting to consider what sort of unique genetic profiles one would find in various parts of the US if one conducted a similar experiment.

On the heels of this video, I read recent research published in the December 2018 _Journal of Economic Entomology_ entitled, _“Colony Size, Rather Than Geographic Origin of Stocks, Predicts Overwintering Success in Honey Bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae) in the Northeastern United States”_:

https://academic.oup.com/jee/advance-article/doi/10.1093/jee/toy377/5251959

While not the primary focus of the study, the authors made several observations concerning the relative genetic diversity of the four regional commercial stocks (2 Northeast and 2 Southeast) utilized in the study:

_“G-statistics… a pairwise comparison of the four stocks revealed that although there was no differentiation among stocks within the same region, there was genetic differentiation between stocks from different regions…”

“AMOVA… We found no differentiation between stocks within each region. The difference between Northern and Southern regions was significant but small, accounting for 1.73% of the overall genetic variation…”

“DAPC… we were able to assign individuals to their stocks of origin with 70% success rate and to their region of origin with 82% success rate, further supporting the genetic differentiation between regional groups found in AMOVA.”

“Genetic differentiation at the regional level but not between individual stocks from the same region is intriguing as it may suggest that, despite different breeding populations and practices, stocks in particular regions are genoptypically similar, which would be consistent with local adaptation to broader environmental conditions. Genetic differentiation between regional groups of managed honey bees in neutral markers such as microsatellites indicates that although there is gene flow between regions—likely a result of migratory beekeeping and commercial bee breeding operations—the population of U.S. honey bees is not a panmictic population, at least as reflected by the four stocks that we evaluated. Therefore, a genome-wide investigation of honey bees from multiple relatively isolated sites and breeding operations in United States has the potential to yield local adaptations in parts of the genome under selection…”_

Comparing these results from commercial bee stock relative to Dr. Seeley’s work with feral stock in the Arnot Forest (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-015-0355-0) seems to suggest that the United States may still have multiple streams of genetic diversity that maintain some level of genotypic independence despite commercial breeding, migratory beekeeping practices and varroa mite influence?


----------



## squarepeg

that's very interesting, thanks for sharing it russ.


----------



## mischief

I think so too, even if I dont feel I have anything constructive to add at the moment.
Just enjoying the learning curve.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> that's very interesting, thanks for sharing it russ.





mischief said:


> I think so too, even if I dont feel I have anything constructive to add at the moment.
> Just enjoying the learning curve.


Squarepeg and Mischief:

Thank you for your feedback. I've learned a lot from both of you and I have enjoyed the engaging discussions.

As always, please feel welcome to chime-in here anytime.

Russ


----------



## lharder

Litsinger said:


> A recent video making the rounds on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/gardeningaustralia/videos/294040341296625/) intrigued me and got me thinking afresh about genetic diversity within our existing honeybee stock in the Eastern United States.
> 
> The video is a trailer for an Australian documentary due to air this week entitled, _“The Great Australian Bee Challenge”_ where University of Sydney entomologist Dr. Tanya Latty (http://www.tanyalatty.com/) and urban beekeeping advocate Mr. Doug Purdie (https://theurbanbeehive.com.au/) _“… challenge four families to successfully keep a honeybee hive, bringing these everyday Australians up close to the very latest science about bee brains, communication and behaviour.”_
> 
> In the video they mention that their drone trapping research suggests there are approximately 110 colonies living within a 3 kilometer radius of the University of Sydney, which seems like quite a significant and diverse gene pool to draw from.
> 
> Recognizing that Australia has not yet had to deal with the varroa mite, it is interesting to consider what sort of unique genetic profiles one would find in various parts of the US if one conducted a similar experiment.
> 
> On the heels of this video, I read recent research published in the December 2018 _Journal of Economic Entomology_ entitled, _“Colony Size, Rather Than Geographic Origin of Stocks, Predicts Overwintering Success in Honey Bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae) in the Northeastern United States”_:
> 
> https://academic.oup.com/jee/advance-article/doi/10.1093/jee/toy377/5251959
> 
> While not the primary focus of the study, the authors made several observations concerning the relative genetic diversity of the four regional commercial stocks (2 Northeast and 2 Southeast) utilized in the study:
> 
> _“G-statistics… a pairwise comparison of the four stocks revealed that although there was no differentiation among stocks within the same region, there was genetic differentiation between stocks from different regions…”
> 
> “AMOVA… We found no differentiation between stocks within each region. The difference between Northern and Southern regions was significant but small, accounting for 1.73% of the overall genetic variation…”
> 
> “DAPC… we were able to assign individuals to their stocks of origin with 70% success rate and to their region of origin with 82% success rate, further supporting the genetic differentiation between regional groups found in AMOVA.”
> 
> “Genetic differentiation at the regional level but not between individual stocks from the same region is intriguing as it may suggest that, despite different breeding populations and practices, stocks in particular regions are genoptypically similar, which would be consistent with local adaptation to broader environmental conditions. Genetic differentiation between regional groups of managed honey bees in neutral markers such as microsatellites indicates that although there is gene flow between regions—likely a result of migratory beekeeping and commercial bee breeding operations—the population of U.S. honey bees is not a panmictic population, at least as reflected by the four stocks that we evaluated. Therefore, a genome-wide investigation of honey bees from multiple relatively isolated sites and breeding operations in United States has the potential to yield local adaptations in parts of the genome under selection…”_
> 
> Comparing these results from commercial bee stock relative to Dr. Seeley’s work with feral stock in the Arnot Forest (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-015-0355-0) seems to suggest that the United States may still have multiple streams of genetic diversity that maintain some level of genotypic independence despite commercial breeding, migratory beekeeping practices and varroa mite influence?


The question is how much variation between populations would exist if there was no artificial migration and queen shipping. Beekeepers are completely fickle and bring in new genetics at a drop of a hat. And of course always looking for someone else to come up with a super bee for them without understanding system parameters then complaining when they don't work out. Gene flow is a huge influence on development of new species and subspecies. As of now I see lots of variation within my bees for various traits. How much variation would there be if we stopped manipulating so much, stopped randomly bringing in new genetics, then found the bees well suited for our local environments and raised queens from them. I suspect less


----------



## Litsinger

lharder said:


> How much variation would there be if we stopped manipulating so much, stopped randomly bringing in new genetics, then found the bees well suited for our local environments and raised queens from them. I suspect less


lharder:

Good question- and an interesting concept to chew on. While it is speculation on my part, I wonder if we might see distinct landraces of bees develop in various areas of the country which would likely have less phenotypic variation but still maintain quite a lot of genetic diversity.

According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landrace), _"General features that characterize a landrace may include:

It is morphologically distinctive and identifiable (i.e., has particular and recognizable characteristics or properties), yet remains "dynamic".

It is genetically adapted to, and has a reputation for being able to withstand, the conditions of the local environment, including climate, disease and pests, even cultural practices.

It is not the product of formal (governmental, organizational, or private) breeding programs, and may lack systematic selection, development and improvement by breeders.

It is maintained and fostered less deliberately than a standardized breed, with its genetic isolation principally a matter of geography acting upon whatever animals that happened to be brought by humans to a given area.

It has a historical origin in a specific geographic area, will usually have its own local name(s), and will often be classified according to intended purpose.

Where yield… can be measured, a landrace will show high stability of yield, even under adverse conditions, but a moderate yield level, even under carefully managed conditions.

At the level of genetic testing, its heredity will show a degree of integrity, but still some genetic heterogeneity (i.e. genetic diversity)."_

I add the disclaimer that this is speculative on my part, but is informed by Mr. Randy Oliver's thoughts on the subject:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...fference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/

Thank you again for the feedback and the thought-provoking questioning.

Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

This afternoon I ran-across a webpage at The Natural Beekeeping Trust titled, _"The Science Behind Apicentric Practice"_.

It appears to be a through and relatively-current compendium of research articles associated with "natural" beekeeping, many of which are directly applicable and/or routinely referenced in treatment-free circles. I thought I would post it here for anyone interested, and I see this as a good source of winter reading material:

https://www.naturalbeekeepingtrust.org/the-science-p2


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> This afternoon I ran-across a webpage at The Natural Beekeeping Trust titled, _"The Science Behind Apicentric Practice"_.
> 
> It appears to be a through and relatively-current compendium of research articles associated with "natural" beekeeping, many of which are directly applicable and/or routinely referenced in treatment-free circles. I thought I would post it here for anyone interested, and I see this as a good source of winter reading material:
> 
> https://www.naturalbeekeepingtrust.org/the-science-p2


Here is another good read.
I monitor the entries about the "Hive building" articles.
(check out the tree-hive; I borrowed the idea for one of my hives - too bad, that hive died out and I kinda have second thoughts about too much metal wires in the nest - too much energy loss maybe due to conductivity in my hive - may take the screens out).

https://chelifer.de/category/bolg-en/


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Here is another good read. https://chelifer.de/category/bolg-en/


GregV:

This is a great resource- I sincerely appreciate you sharing this. I too am fascinated by the hive insulation versus ventilation paradigm, and this link directly addresses these two hive management tenants in numerous places:

https://chelifer.de/water-vapor-diffusion/
https://chelifer.de/thermal-insulation/
https://chelifer.de/ventilation/
https://chelifer.de/diffusion-lid/

While it seems there is much yet to be learned on the subject, it might be safe to say that beekeepers in temperate climates should adopt one of two strategies:

1. Utilize standard single-wall woodenware and assure adequate top ventilation for a particular climate to minimize precipitated moisture accumulation within the cavity- with the understanding that this approach will increase winter energy consumption and might increase winter losses (particularly with small clusters).

2. Utilize purpose-built hive envelopes which are appropriately insulated for a particular climate, are un-ventilated and thus preclude precipitated moisture accumulation within the cavity- with the understanding that this approach might increase moisture accumulation within the hive should any part of the thermal envelope fail and thus allow internal moisture to cool below the corresponding dewpoint.

Good stuff as always- thanks again for sharing.

Russ


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 2. Utilize purpose-built hive envelopes which are appropriately insulated for a particular climate, are un-ventilated and thus preclude precipitated moisture accumulation within the cavity- with the understanding that this approach might increase moisture accumulation within the hive should any part of the thermal envelope fail and thus allow internal moisture to cool below the corresponding dewpoint.
> Russ


Russ,

Just recently, I met a beekeeper from WI, or MN (I can't remember; I must be getting old.) He said he was having success with 2" insulation on the top, and 3 sides of his hive, with the final wall bare wood. He did this intentionally to ensure condensation occurred on that wall alone. If you choose to go ventless (at the top, of course) the only thing one has to make sure of to prevent water dripping on the bees, is that the R-value on the top of the hive exceeds that on the sides.

I wonder if having some condensation on the walls of a hive might be a good thing, especially as the brooding season begins.


----------



## GregB

clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> I wonder if having *some condensation on the walls of a hive might be a good thing,* especially as the brooding season begins.


In Russia/Ukraine they address exactly this starting in early spring (March) - they start using heavy plastic film on top and cut all the ventilation - thus forcing significant condensation by design.
Condensation benefits outweigh the harm starting early spring - bees need not fly out during bad weather for water - it is warm enough not to worry of the condensation anymore.
Also, the tight film top seals in the warmth. 
This is said to help with early spring brooding.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> This is a great resource- ......
> 
> Russ


I knew you'd like it (if new to you).
I periodically check it.
Get the Downloads too - nice research PDFs if don't already have.


----------



## crofter

Interesting links on hive insulation and moisture control. We had -32 C. ~ -25 F. here the last few nights. A bit further north as cold as - 47 C. or -52 F. Insulation seems like a good idea to me.


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> I wonder if having some condensation on the walls of a hive might be a good thing, especially as the brooding season begins.





GregV said:


> Condensation benefits outweigh the harm starting early spring...


clong and GregV:

Great distinction- I concede I was being a bit reductionist by suggesting all or none. I appreciate you both challenging this a bit.

I recall reading how Mr. Walt Wright utilized seeing bees at the watering trough as one of the many observational tools to know when his colonies were brooding in earnest, and it seems that provided one can constrain the condensation to the sides (or a side) and ultimately draining out of the hive this may be the best possible outcome for early spring build-up.

Thanks again for the feedback- I am looking forward to what sort of observations you both make in regards to improving the cavity envelope and managing the ventilation.


----------



## Litsinger

crofter said:


> Interesting links on hive insulation and moisture control. We had -32 C. ~ -25 F. here the last few nights. A bit further north as cold as - 47 C. or -52 F. Insulation seems like a good idea to me.


crofter:

Glad you commented, and good reminder that beekeeping is local. We are preparing for our first (and likely only) bout with single-digit Fahrenheit temperatures here mid-week and are generally in pandemonium . We here in the Mid-South are not prepared to cope with (and can't hardly fathom) the temperatures you all are experiencing. 

I'm always glad for your input-

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Get the Downloads too - nice research PDFs if don't already have.


Didn't even look at the Downloads page- you're right- there are some interesting research papers there:

https://chelifer.de/download/

Thanks again for the link- several more papers to add to the reading pile!


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> Give this a watch when you have some time...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yxrawVF0Oc


I thought of this video that MSL shared with me when I read an article this evening entitled, _"Honey bees consider larval nutritional status rather than genetic relatedness when selecting larvae for emergency queen rearing"_ published in _Scientific Reports_ (May 16, 2018):

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25976-7

The key finding was that:

_"... honey bees perceive the nutritional state of larvae and use that information when selecting larvae for rearing queens in the natural emergency queen replacement process."

"Thus, within colonies, the primary factors leading to selection of a larva for a replacement queen appear to be those related to larval fitness, rather than relatedness or origin."

"It is reasonable, therefore, to presume that honey bees possess the ability to assess larval fitness and select the best larvae from which to raise queens. Well-fed larvae are likely of better health and quality, and consequently may develop into healthier, higher-quality queens."_

Other interesting observations included:

_"... any examination of emergency queen larval selection, natural queen rearing and artificially grafted queen rearing methods may yield significantly different results. We tested this hypothesis by manipulating the nutritional status of totipotent larvae and rearing them in both a natural queen rearing environment and an artificial queen rearing environment (grafting)."

"When experimental colonies were allowed to select deprived or non-deprived larvae for queen rearing under the natural emergency queen rearing method, a significantly higher number of queens were reared from the non-deprived treatment group than from the deprived treatment group..."

"There was no significant difference between the number of queens reared to pupation from deprived and non-deprived larvae, when larvae were grafted into queen cups..."

"For both related and unrelated larvae, more queens were reared to pupation from the non-deprived treatment group... than from the deprived treatment group..."

"... our results support the notion that artificially grafting larvae into queen cells does not appear to be a test for selection, but rather a test for queen rearing maintenance of preselected larvae. The factors that bees use to select larvae for queen rearing and those used to maintain queen larvae may be very different."

"Our initial observations suggest that even in a normally functioning colony with adequate resources, some larvae are seemingly stochastically ignored for sufficient time to result in some amount of 'hunger.'"

"We speculate that deprived larvae were sending nutritional stress signals in the form of pheromones to workers and workers used those signals while making choices regarding queen rearing."_


----------



## Hunajavelho

GregV said:


> In Russia/Ukraine they address exactly this starting in early spring (March) - they start using heavy plastic film on top and cut all the ventilation - thus forcing significant condensation by design.
> Condensation benefits outweigh the harm starting early spring - bees need not fly out during bad weather for water - it is warm enough not to worry of the condensation anymore.
> Also, the tight film top seals in the warmth.
> This is said to help with early spring brooding.


Why not keep the plastic on top all winter? In Finland most beekeepers winter hives with good airtight top insulation and bottom ventilation.


----------



## Litsinger

Hunajavelho said:


> Why not keep the plastic on top all winter? In Finland most beekeepers winter hives with good airtight top insulation and bottom ventilation.


Hunajavelho:

Thank you for your question- I'll look forward to GregV's feedback regarding how Eastern European beekeepers are approaching this too.

For context, this discussion was based on a recent conversation over at clong's forum about the idea of increasing the insulation value of the overall hive volume and minimizing ventilation out the top of the hive:



Litsinger said:


> The requirement to retain elevated temperatures, and hence reduced RH where the desiccation is taking place, shows an all year round advantage for nests with low thermal conductance.[/I]


While I can only speak concerning the relatively warm and humid Southeast United States, the prevalent opinion in our region is that the respiration and metabolism of a winter cluster liberates water in a vapor state. When this vapor comes into contact with a cool and relatively un-insulated surface (typically a solid inner cover) which is below the dewpoint of the atmosphere, condensation is formed on the lid and subsequently 'rains' down on top of the cluster, greatly increasing winter losses. A oft quoted cliche in beekeeping circles here is that, "Cold doesn't kill bees- moisture does".

So the normative approach to dealing with moisture accumulation in our region is to top-ventilate hives in the winter to allow an opportunity for the moisture to escape- along with a fair bit of heat.

Folks like clong are seeking to address this moisture build-up by increasing the resistance value of the envelope (and particularly the roof) to minimize the amount of ventilation (and corresponding heat loss) and control where the condensation interface occurs.

I am really interested to hear about how you all approach this in Finland. Is the decision to have an airtight and well-insulated roof and copious bottom ventilation based on the principals of moisture management as well?

Thank you for your participation- I welcome you to comment anytime.

Russ


----------



## Hunajavelho

Litsinger said:


> I am really interested to hear about how you all approach this in Finland. Is the decision to have an airtight and well-insulated roof and copious bottom ventilation based on the principals of moisture management as well?


Yes, it is based on that. As the roof has more insulation than the hive walls the warm air will condensate on the walls and drip down either through screen bottom or the lowest entrance (if not screen bottomboard is used). This works well with both thin wooden walls or insulated walls as long as the roof is better insulated.

The hives are completely dry in winter, then in late february early march when brood rearing is started a little condensation will appear underneath the plastic film - this the bees will use as water.
Cleansing flights late march, early april. First pollen comes in early or mid april.
Brood rearing stops late september.


----------



## Litsinger

Hunajavelho said:


> Yes, it is based on that. As the roof has more insulation than the hive walls the warm air will condensate on the walls and drip down either through screen bottom or the lowest entrance (if not screen bottomboard is used). This works well with both thin wooden walls or insulated walls as long as the roof is better insulated.


Hunajavelho:

Thank you for your response. That is great feedback. You mentioned a lowest entrance- do Finnish beekeepers typically run more than one entrance? If so, do they maintain an upper entrance in the winter or close it off to help retain heat?

Thanks again for the input. I sincerely appreciate it.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Hunajavelho said:


> Why not keep the plastic on top all winter? In Finland most beekeepers winter hives with good airtight top insulation and bottom ventilation.


Not all keepers practice excessive ventilation via bottom (say, you have old Dadant with solid bottom - solid plastic on the top is NOT for you - unless, you properly do ventilated side-air pockets). Because many keepers did not understand the proper usage of the plastic on top that requires ventilated bottoms - many bees died of the condensation - bad publicity resulted.

I myself use filtering type insulation on the top (burlap/blankets) and unsure if I want plastic for few reasons (forgoing few obvious benefits - like "see-through").

I want well propolised burlaps made by the bees for many uses for their own and mine too (for me, i need those burlaps in swarm traps, for example).
For this, I will be using burlap covering the frames, not plastic.
Well propolised burlap is working just as well as plastic (while being totally natural, it is nearly as hermetic as plastic) AND it promotes more propolise usage in the bee nest which promotes better nest micro-climate. More propolise - better bees. 

In this regard, plastic is not good - it replaces propolised fiber as hermetic material and bees have less motivation to propolise the nest (they do not do unnecessary work) - less propolis/more plastic - not exactly good and not natural. I have not seen this idea investigated yet - this is a totally empirical statement from me.

So yes, plastic is a great practical solution to be used (excellent see-through, hermetic solution).

It is only a matter how principled the keeper is but also no-one really investigated side-affects of plastic usage in the bee hive nests - that is another case of unknown and is largely ignored.

As for me, I hate the plastic smell of my home when we come after being away on vacation for 1-2 weeks - there is lots of chemical evaporation built-up if you keep your house non-ventilated just few days - that shows the toxicity of our "really practical" modern homes. There must not be chemical smell in the dwelling (of bees or of humans).

So that's plastics.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Hunajavelho:
> 
> Thank you for your response. That is great feedback. You mentioned a lowest entrance- do Finnish beekeepers typically run more than one entrance? If so, do they maintain an upper entrance in the winter or close it off to help retain heat?
> 
> Thanks again for the input. I sincerely appreciate it.
> 
> Russ



Traditionally, the Old World beekeepers in wooden ware hives run bottom entrances (I never researched why). 
This is as if no other way was possible or desired. I wonder if anyone ever challenged that.
But also - the Old World has no skunks.

I observe mid-body/higher-body entrances are now being used more now days (especially with the multi-body hives AND the Internet-based info exchange).

Our Finnish friend will correct me as needed.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> ...So that's plastics.


And what do you know - a fresh video update on wintering.
Just click through with every hive check and watch. 
A great variety of configurations - plastic, burlap (well propolised like I said), wooden planks, what have you.
Variety of hives too - large horizontals, Dadants (12-frame and 16-frame), 8-frame vertical mobile hives (I really want to test build one), 12-frame Ukrainian framers (I got plans for these), what have you.
A good review of what is possible and what works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eix12VV5b0E


----------



## Hunajavelho

Litsinger said:


> Hunajavelho:
> 
> Thank you for your response. That is great feedback. You mentioned a lowest entrance- do Finnish beekeepers typically run more than one entrance? If so, do they maintain an upper entrance in the winter or close it off to help retain heat?
> 
> Thanks again for the input. I sincerely appreciate it.
> 
> Russ


No upper entrance. Only bottom entrance, but what I meant was some use in winter a double entrance;
the regular front entrance and in winter also back entrance - you get air circulation at the bottomboard. This is used if no screen or mesh is used.
So the condensation water drips to the lowest entrance. Or if only front entrance is used then water drips to the lowest entrance corner, however the hive is leaning.

Hope I'm making some sense


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> A good review of what is possible and what works.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eix12VV5b0E


GregV:

Wow! You are not kidding- there is quite a variety of top set-ups in that apiary. I noted the following:

Blankets
Quilt batting
Tongue-and-groove wood planks- what are the numbers for?
Foil-backed batt and board insulation
Burlap
Plastic and foil sheeting

Two other things I noticed:

1. Many of the hives appeared to have either fully or partially open screened bottom boards.
2. Many (maybe most) of the hives had no entrance reducers installed.

Thanks again for sharing- appears there are many ways one can overwinter successfully.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Hunajavelho said:


> No upper entrance. Only bottom entrance, but what I meant was some use in winter a double entrance;
> the regular front entrance and in winter also back entrance - you get air circulation at the bottomboard. This is used if no screen or mesh is used.
> So the condensation water drips to the lowest entrance. Or if only front entrance is used then water drips to the lowest entrance corner, however the hive is leaning.
> 
> Hope I'm making some sense


Hunajavelho:

Thank you for your reply- you made perfect sense- I believe you are describing something like a notched inner cover with the notch facing down and oriented on the opposite end of the hive from the regular bottom entrance? If so, that is also a common method in our region of introducing top ventilation.

Thanks again for your help and input.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

A recent post by Mr. Solomon Parker captured what I thought was the prevailing ethos of many in the treatment-free arena and I thought it worthy to share (below).

There are two points he makes that I thought were of particular note:

1. The acknowledgement and acceptance of the premise that most (or all) the bees one catches in swarm traps will originate from treated hives.

2. An observation of a 30% two-year survival average.

I think the point he is trying to make is that if one can stare both of those factors square in the face and still be content keeping bees in a treatment-free context in spite of these realities, it might be worth exploring.

_“THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A TREATMENT FREE BEE.

There are only treatment-free beekeepers. If you treat, your bees are treated. If you don't treat, your bees are treatment-free. It's that simple. No consideration of losses, survival rates, etc. No other factors matter.

Some, most, if not ALL the bees you catch WILL be from treated hives.

THAT'S FINE!

They're still bees, they're not poisoned, there is nothing wrong with them. They just might die later due to their poor genetics. But they also might survive and do well.
EVERYTHING IS GOING TO DIE EVENTUALLY. This is a fact that everyone needs to be in contact with but precious few are.

Free bees are still going to be bees, they're still going to build comb, make honey, and give you all the experiences of being a beekeeper. And if you're lucky, they'll also educate you on disease modes and give you a first hand account of how things die.

This is FINE!
And it's fine, because they're FREE.

If they die (and they will eventually) you can get more for FREE. And along the way, you WILL find some that survive long term. I find about 60% survive the first winter, and 30% survive the second winter. That's without splitting and with basic management. Add a little splitting to your repertoire and you won't soon run out of bees.

There is no offense intended here, I simply speak objectively, but I am blunt. DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE SOURCE OF THE BEES. It doesn't matter. You can still be a successful beekeeper even if every bee you own dies every winter, just ask those who kill all their colonies every fall.

If you approach everything like you're trying to make the best purchase, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A BAD TIME.

Embrace the FREE BEES and everything that entails.”
_


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Tongue-and-groove wood planks- what are the numbers for?
> Russ


Those are just tight fitting planks, Russ.
Typically will not be tongue-and-groove.
If there was t-and-g, I did not catch that.
Very typical way used in Ukrainian horizontals - good in that it allows the bees to cross over the frames when cold (and still breath through).
Some people only use the planks in winter; in summer the planks are in the storage - burlap replaces the planks..

Numbers - no idea; maybe the order of the planks was important for better fitting.



> 1. Many of the hives appeared to have either fully or partially open screened bottom boards.
> 2. Many (maybe most) of the hives had no entrance reducers installed.


1. Those wintering under hermetic film - have screen bottom boards (bottom ventilation).
2. Ventilation thing. 
I really liked this apiary; very tidy; the owner is clearly into experimentation; he was commenting on a queen in each hive (great variety of queen sources, including his own).


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Hunajavelho:
> 
> Thank you for your reply- you made perfect sense- I believe you are describing something like a notched inner cover with the notch facing down and oriented on the opposite end of the hive from the regular bottom entrance? If so, that is also a common method in our region of introducing top ventilation.
> 
> Thanks again for your help and input.
> 
> Russ
> 
> View attachment 45817


No.

Something like this:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/nenikoj/hunaja/kalusto.html


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> 1. Those wintering under hermetic film - have screen bottom boards (bottom ventilation).


Thank you GregV:

This whole idea of highly insulated roof assemblies and no top ventilation (but bottom ventilation) is an interesting concept- makes perfect sense if one can successfully manage the condensation.

Thanks again for your help and feedback. I do appreciate it!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> No.
> 
> Something like this:
> http://www.saunalahti.fi/nenikoj/hunaja/kalusto.html


Juhani:

Thank you for your feedback. I sincerely appreciate it.

I think I came across the actual brand of polystyrene equipment that Ms. Jokinen is using here:

https://www.mesi.fi/en/products/polystyrene-hives/

Is this also the equipment you prefer to work with?

From their website: https://www.mesi.fi/en/products/polystyrene-hives/roof-and-bottoms/

_“Multifunctional hive roof for dynamic and changing climate keeping the beehive warm especially when wintering and offering ventilation possibility when turned upside down.

Honey Paw beehive roof is 45 mm thick in the middle and that the beehive stays warm no matter what. Roof has overhanging outside edges to provide protection against weather. If the hive temperature should rise to high, the roof can be turned upside down forming an exit tunnel for warm air inside of the beehive.”_

Based on these websites, I gather that there are two typical overwintering set-ups in Finland?

1.	Utilize plastic sheeting on the very top box of the stack and employ an insulated lid with no top ventilation but provide ventilation at the very bottom.

2.	Utilize an insulated lid with some top ventilation and a solid bottom board.

Thanks again for your help and input. I hope all is well with you and your family.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

This week's "Polar Vortex" that has gripped most of the Midwest has a lot of beekeepers in our region talking about the effect of low ambient temperatures on winter clusters. 

I recently read a 1971 publication by the United States Department of Agriculture entitled _The Thermology of Wintering Honey Bee Colonies_ (http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/171857/2/tb1429.pdf). 

The experimental design employed equal overwintering colony populations over a five year period of evaluation (December 1 - March 31) with three different set-ups and two entrance set-ups (upper and lower):

(1)	Check Colony- Unprotected hive.
(2)	Packed Colony- Insulation and building paper.
(3)	Taped Colony- Held at 40°F via resistance tape heater.

There were quite a lot of very interesting experiments and resultant observations contained in the document, but a few that stood out to me:

Background / Conclusions

_“… found that 3 days were required for the clustered bees to return to normal after being disturbed.”

“The cluster was always south and generally slightly west of the hive center.”

“The tape colonies had the loosest insulating shell at all times. There was little difference in compactness of cluster in the tape and packed colonies. The brood of the check colonies was more centered in the hive than the brood of the other treatments.”

“The evidence is strong that colonies can withstand cold and even subzero temperatures for weeks. However, bees can maintain cluster temperatures easier if the colony is insulated. Brood can be reared under low external temperatures provided sufficient pollen and honey are available to the cluster. Fluctuation in the cluster is due in part to temperature change, which may be in the daily mean or in the differential of day to night.”

“Brood rearing will occur under subzero conditions in insulated colonies with plenty of pollen and honey stores in the cluster.”_

Check Colonies

_"Temperature affected the cluster in the check colonies more than in the other treatments. Below 25° F the sun did not cause the cluster to move toward the hive front. Evidently at and below this temperature the heat loss from the wooden hive body was greater than the heat absorbed from the sun."

"On January 4 between 0700 and midnight when the outside temperature was between 2° and 9° F, the cluster moved sideways and down into the center body. Then it returned to its original location. Apparently it moved to obtain honey. This demonstrates how a strong colony can move its stores under low temperature conditions. Weaker colonies might starve with honey in the frame next to the cluster, because the bees are unable to generate enough heat to let the cluster spread over additional comb."

"The 5-year tests of the check colonies showed that stronger colonies changed cluster location and size more than did weaker colonies. Weak clusters could not generate sufficient heat to move even during mild winter temperatures in Wisconsin."_

Packed Colonies 

_"The mean temperature outside the cluster in packed colonies was 7° F higher than in the check colonies. The cluster in the packed colonies changed shape and size as the outside temperature and solar radiation changed."_

Tape Colonies 

_"The lowest temperature recorded in the tape-heated hives with a 40° thermostat setting was 29° F. This occurred when the outside temperature was below 0°."_

Effects of Entrance Location on Cluster

_"The bottom entrances were closed and the top entrances remained open on all colonies for a few days and then the openings were reversed. The bottom entrance had no effect on the reaction of the cluster because of temperature. Nor did the bottom entrance affect the temperature in the bottom body of the check or packed colonies. The tape colonies had a 2° F rise in the bottom body when the bottom entrance was closed. When the top entrance was closed, the cluster moved closer to it and did not draw back at night as it did when it was opened. Except for temperature changes caused by the cluster movement, the temperature distribution in the hives was not altered by changing the entrances. Although the effects of the outside temperature on the cluster were reduced when the top entrance was closed, the bees were prevented from leaving the hive on warm days. Periodical bee flights in winter seem to make for a healthier colony. Without an upper entrance the bees were confined to the hive most of the winter and thus their chance for winter survival possibly was decreased. The lower body of the unheated check and packed hives never warmed up enough to permit the bees to fly from the bottom entrance."_

Population Change Versus Time

_"The volume of brood in the check colonies was lower than in the other colonies until April, then during April it increased rapidly. By the end of April the brood volume in the check colonies was as large as it was in the other treatments."

"The difference in brood rearing between the packed and tape colonies was small. The packing aided in early brood buildup, but adding heat to packed hives (tape colonies) did not increase the buildup over the packed colonies. When the weather warmed in late March. the brood in the check colonies increased much more than in the other treatments."

"More brood was reared in the packed and tape colonies before April 1. Heat alone did not stimulate brood rearing. Generally at Madison after the start of warm weather and food storage, the population in the check colonies can catch up with the other colonies by the time of the main honey flow."

"Insulated colonies start brood rearing a few days earlier than unprotected colonies, but the latter tend to catch up shortly after warmer weather arrives." _


----------



## KevinWI

Dang...I started reading this thread just for the original posters updates...but it really got convoluted with all the replies to everyone and I'm guessing updates got included in some of those replies...so somewhere along the line, I got lost as to how the colonies made it...mainly I was attempting to skip all the conversation because this thread is just too long.....

Is there a summary post anywhere?


----------



## Litsinger

KevinWI said:


> Is there a summary post anywhere?


KevinWI:

Thank you for your comment- I apologize that the thread is so long. Good idea on a summary, so here goes:

1. Returned to beekeeping this year after a long absence.

2. Bought (2) 3# packages of small-cell bees and installed this April: Built-up like mad only to crash-and-burn in November and December respectively due to varroa.

3. Caught (2) swarms this May: As of today, still surviving.

4. Made (2) nucs from Item 2 colonies: both failed during low temperatures earlier this winter- small clusters.

5. Made myriad mistakes along the way, but hopefully learned from them.

6. Planning on setting-out more swarm traps this Spring to test resistance proof-of-concept: prepared to fail, but hoping to succeed.

Otherwise, there are a lot of conversations about genetics, hardware, internal varroa mitigation concepts and general treatment-free approaches/fallacies.

I'm glad you gave the thread a read, and please feel welcome to share your thoughts/feedback anytime.

Russ


----------



## trishbookworm

Did you catch that this study used 20x20" mediums? 3 mediums? 

"All hives used for this study were three hive
bodies high. The bodies were 20 inches square
and 60/8 inches deep. There was a I-inch entrance hole in the center body and a 3- by
%-inch entrance at the bottom board. The
hives all faced south, and the combs were
numbered from west to east. "

talk about an alternative hive construction!


----------



## Litsinger

trishbookworm said:


> talk about an alternative hive construction!


Trish:

Great catch! I picked up on the all-medium part but failed to note the 20" width. What does that work out to, maybe 14 frames?

I also wonder how these results would compare to a similar study post-varroa. I imagine the cluster dynamics would be similar but we might be dealing with smaller winter populations in general?

Thanks for keeping me on my toes- I always appreciate your feedback.

Russ


----------



## KevinWI

Litsinger said:


> KevinWI:
> 
> Thank you for your comment- I apologize that the thread is so long. Good idea on a summary, so here goes:
> 
> 
> I'm glad you gave the thread a read, and please feel welcome to share your thoughts/feedback anytime.
> 
> Russ


Thanks for the recap! 

BTW...20" wide would give you about 12 frames if I did the math right.


----------



## GregB

KevinWI said:


> Thanks for the recap!
> 
> BTW...20" wide would give you about 12 frames if I did the math right.


Pretty sure 12-frame square Lang system was rather standard back then.
In fact, in 1970s they would be using a most common setup so to produce applicable results.

Last year I scored such 12-frame square setup full of frames by the road side.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> KevinWI said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the recap!
> 
> BTW...20" wide would give you about 12 frames if I did the math right.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure 12-frame square Lang system was rather standard back then.
> In fact, in 1970s they would be using a most common setup so to produce applicable results.
> 
> Last year I scored such 12-frame square setup full of frames by the road side.
Click to expand...

KevinWI and GregV:

Thanks for the help with this. I had to sit down and work out the math to satisfy my curiosity, so I agree it looks like you can comfortably fit 12 standard frames in a 20" OD width.

FWIW, it looks like you can fit 14 narrow frames in that same footprint, so that is a lot of horizontal comb.

I do appreciate the input, and GregV it sounds like you made a good find!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

KevinWI said:


> BTW...20" wide would give you about 12 frames if I did the math right.


I remembered the following thread where Fusion_power was experimenting with 12 and 14 frames in 20 X 20 deep boxes (starting about post #66):

https://www.beesource.com/forums/#/topics/249192?


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Is this also the equipment you prefer to work with?


Yes and no.
Small nucleus colonies are polystyrene, but the big ones have 18 mm plywood boxes.

Airtight, well insulating top and ventilation at the bottom with both.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Airtight, well insulating top and ventilation at the bottom with both.


Juhani:

Thank you for your response. I really appreciate it! I have been reading your blog and perusing your buckfast page, and I think there is a photo of your normal lid set-up on this page?

http://www.buckfast.fi/queens/inseminated-queens/

I also found your videos on YouTube- very impressive. I look forward to watching them all in time. I noticed you have two that specifically address overwintering, and in the second, there is an extended discussion in the comments about this very subject- thank you again for all your help and advice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzCGfnDpnOs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBtYuGAd6P4


----------



## Litsinger

Today's high of 63 degrees F had both hives out and active, orienting and doing housekeeping, some grooming and bringing a little bit of red pollen in.

I also visited the hive behind my office yesterday afternoon and they are still plugging-away, so I am increasingly optimistic I might be able to trap-out a nucleus colony from them this Spring.

We came through three days of significantly lower than normal weather this week as a result of the "polar vortex" with highs in the mid 20's and lows in the low teens.

Looking at nature's cues and the extended forecast, it still looks like we are going to get an early start to things this year as compared to last.


----------



## Litsinger

Here's an article from my day job that is an entertaining read and gives some good analogies of the genetic "budget" that Randy Oliver speaks of, namely:

_"In business or sports, success is all about being “better” than the competition. And so it is in nature, with each honey bee colony vigorously competing against the competition (other colonies) for resources, including nest cavities. And by supplying ideal nest cavities, early beekeepers gave “kept bees” a leg up on the competition. But there is no such thing as a free lunch—in nature, any advantage typically comes at a cost. Evolution is generally a zero sum game; by becoming better at any one thing (emphasizing one trait), a species must give something up in return (losing the ability to do something else as well)."_

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...mitotypes-genotypes-and-tradeoffs-in-fitness/

View attachment A Lesson on Rat's Tails and Unintended Consequences.pdf


----------



## Litsinger

This afternoon I watched the following video over my lunch break with the innocuous title of, _Basic honey bee genetics_. The presenter, Mr. John Chambers makes in my view the very compelling case for locally-adapted stock. His general approach to bee propagation is self-described as an _“… augmented ‘bees know best’ policy”_:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q-s8RDd6qg

The video was VERY helpful to me to understand the basics of bee reproduction and the resultant genetic realities. A few of the notable points he made from my perspective include:

Regarding Trait Selection

_“Quantitative traits rely upon multiple gene expression and cannot be viewed in Mendelian terms.” _

In other words, he makes the case that our efforts to breed for a particular expressed trait will always be manifested along a normal distribution curve whereby the resultant colonies will generally express the desired trait commensurate to the following probabilities (as an example):

1.	2 out of 3 will be ‘average’.
2.	2 out of 15 will be ‘good’ and ‘bad’ respectively.
3.	1 out of 50 will be ‘excellent’ or ‘really poor’ respectively.
4.	1 out of 250 will be ‘outstanding’ or ‘awful’ respectively.

Commensurate to this, he makes the point that, _“If a colony has one mother but many fathers then no colony-level trait of any kind can be considered in Mendelian terms.”_

Regarding Local Adaptation

_“No other terrestrial animal goes to such lengths to mix up its DNA and share it amongst the entire local population.”_

_“The genetic diversity strategy of the honey bee service it very well and is the antithesis of the genetic uniformity strategy of the bee breeder.”_

_“Within any population, beneficial alleles have a high prevalence, maladaptive alleles have a low prevalence and neutral alleles lie between the two extremes. However, ‘maladaptive’, ‘neutral’ and ‘beneficial’ are relative terms.”_

_“Honey bees have a dormant genetic legacy they can draw upon when needed.”_

_“Honey bees adapt to their local environments and this has a genetic basis to it.”_

_“The best genetic material for your honey bees is already in your immediate vicinity. The honey bees best suited to your apiary might do very poorly just 400 miles away, or even less.”_

_“Imported stock is not genetically adapted and can bring in a lot of genetic material that is poorly suited to your area.”_

_“Selection pressure is unavoidable, but you can help shape it for the good rather than the bad.”_

Regarding Drones

_“There is nowhere for expressed fatal genes to hide and they cannot be perpetuated into another generation.” _

_“Being haploid, drone honey bees can filter out many (but not all) fatal alleles.”_

_“CSD [complementary sex determiner] alleles place inbred honey bees at a distinct survival disadvantage.”_


----------



## mischief

I was shocked when I first learnt about the Bees 'birds and the bees'- literally turned my world upside down. 
Absolutely fascinating.
I love that my bees came from my home town, moved an hours drive south for a few years and came back when i got them and am hoping that that genetic diversity, along with being sort of local will compensate for our lack of real feral population.

Not too sure what they meant by fatal genes though- sounds rather ominous.


----------



## lharder

Litsinger said:


> This afternoon I watched the following video over my lunch break with the innocuous title of, _Basic honey bee genetics_. The presenter, Mr. John Chambers makes in my view the very compelling case for locally-adapted stock. His general approach to bee propagation is self-described as an _“… augmented ‘bees know best’ policy”_:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q-s8RDd6qg
> 
> The video was VERY helpful to me to understand the basics of bee reproduction and the resultant genetic realities. A few of the notable points he made from my perspective include:
> 
> Regarding Trait Selection
> 
> _“Quantitative traits rely upon multiple gene expression and cannot be viewed in Mendelian terms.” _
> 
> In other words, he makes the case that our efforts to breed for a particular expressed trait will always be manifested along a normal distribution curve whereby the resultant colonies will generally express the desired trait commensurate to the following probabilities (as an example):
> 
> 1.	2 out of 3 will be ‘average’.
> 2.	2 out of 15 will be ‘good’ and ‘bad’ respectively.
> 3.	1 out of 50 will be ‘excellent’ or ‘really poor’ respectively.
> 4.	1 out of 250 will be ‘outstanding’ or ‘awful’ respectively.
> 
> Commensurate to this, he makes the point that, _“If a colony has one mother but many fathers then no colony-level trait of any kind can be considered in Mendelian terms.”_
> 
> Regarding Local Adaptation
> 
> _“No other terrestrial animal goes to such lengths to mix up its DNA and share it amongst the entire local population.”_
> 
> _“The genetic diversity strategy of the honey bee service it very well and is the antithesis of the genetic uniformity strategy of the bee breeder.”_
> 
> _“Within any population, beneficial alleles have a high prevalence, maladaptive alleles have a low prevalence and neutral alleles lie between the two extremes. However, ‘maladaptive’, ‘neutral’ and ‘beneficial’ are relative terms.”_
> 
> _“Honey bees have a dormant genetic legacy they can draw upon when needed.”_
> 
> _“Honey bees adapt to their local environments and this has a genetic basis to it.”_
> 
> _“The best genetic material for your honey bees is already in your immediate vicinity. The honey bees best suited to your apiary might do very poorly just 400 miles away, or even less.”_
> 
> _“Imported stock is not genetically adapted and can bring in a lot of genetic material that is poorly suited to your area.”_
> 
> _“Selection pressure is unavoidable, but you can help shape it for the good rather than the bad.”_
> 
> Regarding Drones
> 
> _“There is nowhere for expressed fatal genes to hide and they cannot be perpetuated into another generation.” _
> 
> _“Being haploid, drone honey bees can filter out many (but not all) fatal alleles.”_
> 
> _“CSD [complementary sex determiner] alleles place inbred honey bees at a distinct survival disadvantage.”_


That is an excellent information to inform thinking. Looking at local variation within my population, I do wonder if its too much and that we have genetic chaos in my location with imported genetics. Getting a baseline read on it is difficult.


----------



## GregB

lharder said:


> .... Getting a baseline read on it is difficult.





> 1. 2 out of 3 will be ‘average’.


Meaning - if about 1/3 dies off, you are pretty sure those dead were "outside of the average" for the given conditions at the given time (outside of 68%/one STD of the typical mean distribution).
With the understanding that the so-called "average" point is always floating year to year.

Works for me for as long as I manage to keep the about 60-70% of the stock afloat consistently.
Otherwise this becomes too much "science-y" and too involved for an average busy peasant. 

Trying to nail any kind of baselines may not be even worth it. 
They are too fluid.


----------



## Litsinger

mischief said:


> Not too sure what they meant by fatal genes though- sounds rather ominous.


Mischief:

Great to hear from you- glad you are able to work with your local bees. I believe Mr. Chamber's point regarding fatal genes is based on the fact that drones are produced from unfertilized eggs (i.e. haploid chromosomes). Given they are not the result of a mix of genes between the queen and a drone, there is no place for most 'fatal' genetic mutations to hide- the drone will simply not be viable. His point is that this is a good thing and helps to underscore the incredible creative genius on display in bee reproduction- there is a built-in resiliency by allowing this faulty genetic combination to hit a dead-end with a dead drone.

These creatures are so fascinating and reveal ever more nuanced, dynamic and complex interactions as one scratches the surface!

Thanks again for your input- good luck in winding-down a successful summer.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

lharder said:


> That is an excellent information to inform thinking. Looking at local variation within my population, I do wonder if its too much and that we have genetic chaos in my location with imported genetics. Getting a baseline read on it is difficult.


lharder:

Glad you enjoyed it. It certainly illuminated a few things for me. He spends quite a bit of airtime discussing the effects of imported genetics, utilizing the term "Outbreeding Depression."

Succinctly, his point is that while imported genetics can impact your locally-adapted stock, the foundational mechanics of bee reproduction are designed for resiliency and seek to attenuate out the negative aspects of this importation. While I can do it no justice, the point is thus:

A virgin queen in an open-mated setting will likely mate with 15 - 45 drones from the DCA within the flight radius of one's apiary. These drones will by necessity represent the fittest (and luckiest) genetics in your area. Further, the fact that the queen mates with this many drones means that the resultant bees in one's colony are not a homogeneous genetic paring, but are effectively 15 - 45 such parings, all of which bring various inherent strengths and weaknesses into the colony. 

So on the off-chance that queen mates with 2 "almond drones", there are still 13+ other drone genetic contributions within the colony, which presumably are more suitably adapted to ones specific region.

The other enlightening thing to me related to this concept is that this multiple open-mated genetic result is that there will be a more diverse representation of various traits which support colony success. As an example, it is highly likely that not all workers in a colony will exhibit hygienic behavior, but those that are deficient in this trait may exhibit better than average abilities in other hive tasks (i.e. foraging).

The whole concept of polyandry and it's imprint upon hive dynamics seems to me to serve as the foundation for local adaptation- but I have much to learn in this area.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Trying to nail any kind of baselines may not be even worth it.
> They are too fluid.


GregV:

Good point- It seems that the chief benefit of establishing baselines (i.e. mite levels) would be to seek patterns relative to whether locally-derived stock is maintaining a consistent, rising or declining resistance to endemic pests and whether:

1. One does in-fact have resistant stock.

2. Such stock is locally-adapted.

3. Such resistance can be maintained, even in-spite of imported genetics.

I know you have put much thought into this concept, so do forgive my "off-the-cuff" thoughts relative to the assertions in the _"Basic honey bee genetics"_ video.

Thanks again for your feedback. Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Just read an interesting article posted at _The Atlantic_ which outlines an ambitious experiment carried out with mice that demonstrated that rapid adaptation to environmental pressure is possible (at least in mice):

https://www.theatlantic.com/science...entedly-thorough-evolution-experiment/581521/

Succinctly, Mr. Rowan Barrett of McGill University (https://barrettlab.ca/) studied whether the color of the surrounding topology would induce an isolated population of mice to select for a fur color which better corresponded to their surroundings.

In short, the answer was a resounding 'yes'. Within 3 months, the majority of the mice which had not succumbed to predation were those who had a fur color which matched their home site and their progeny subsequently expressed genetic markers which brought out this beneficial trait.

_"They found that these variations in fur color depend heavily on mutations in one particular gene. They uncovered exactly how one of these mutations changes the color of a mouse’s hair.

In other words, they showed that one mutation became more common over time because it creates a physical trait that makes its owners better suited to their environment. It’s the essence of evolution, measured comprehensively.

“It demonstrates how quickly natural selection can occur when there is variation present in a population, and how genetic changes can be tracked in real time in natural systems,” says Erica Bree Rosenblum from University of California, Berkeley."_


----------



## squarepeg

Litsinger said:


> This afternoon I watched the following video over my lunch break with the innocuous title of, _Basic honey bee genetics_. The presenter, Mr. John Chambers makes in my view the very compelling case for locally-adapted stock. His general approach to bee propagation is self-described as an _“… augmented ‘bees know best’ policy”_:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q-s8RDd6qg



i watched the chambers video this afternoon. darn good stuff.

i attempted to locate his 'next presentation': 'four incompatible approaches to bee improvement', but i didn't have any luck.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> i watched the chambers video this afternoon. darn good stuff.
> 
> i attempted to locate his 'next presentation': 'four incompatible approaches to bee improvement', but i didn't have any luck.


I too am waiting with baited breath for the follow-up. I contacted the Warkwickshire Beekeepers Association to see if they could put me in touch with Dr. Chambers- we'll see if anything materializes.


----------



## squarepeg

excellent. good job russ.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> excellent. good job russ.


Thank you, SP.

I have learned much from you, and you have always been very generous with your time and experience- thank you for setting a good example for us.


----------



## lharder

I tried to find more about Chambers with no results whatsoever.


----------



## Litsinger

lharder said:


> I tried to find more about Chambers with no results whatsoever.


LHarder:

It appears that Dr. John Chambers is a hobby/sideliner beekeeper like many of us, with a greater than average propensity for research. He is a frequent contributor to the Warwickshire Beekeeper Magazine (https://warwickshirebeekeepers.org.uk/warwickshire-beekeeper-magazine/) and is an active presenter with the Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders Association (https://bibba.com/). From his biography:

_In his tenth season of beekeeping, John maintains about 20 colonies. Starting with locally-caught swarms, he was struck by their diverse behaviours. A busy town-living professional with children, he loves how his bees immediately draw him into the vibrant ecological network on his doorstep. He attempts to interpret rather than inspect, believing observant beekeepers can predict what they will find next time with reasonable accuracy. He does not feed his colonies during nectar dearth and is frugal with syrup after the honey harvest. Likewise, believing angry, weak or underproductive colonies to be so for reasons that have no place in his apiary, he does not spare the queens or unite such colonies. He rears more queens than required and chooses which of these to keep. By these means, he believes that he is developing a frugal, gentle, hardy and productive survivor stock that overwinters well._

I have attached three (3) articles he has published in the last few years which were especially worthwhile, namely:

1. _Honey Bee Mating_
2. _Comb_
3. _Propolis_

There were two observations he made that stuck out to me in particular:

_“In the early weeks and months post-mating, the sperm from each drone remains relatively bundled and poorly mixed within the spermatheca and different patrilines are variably and disproportionately represented within the worker bee population in a constantly changing pattern. However, by about a year, the sperm has become better mixed and the representation of each patriline becomes more consistent within the worker bee colony.”_

_“… it would not be unreasonable to assume that 5 - 6 year old brood comb becomes incompatible with good colony health, an idea that is supported by considerable scientific evidence.”_

View attachment Honey Bee Mating.pdf


View attachment Comb.pdf


View attachment Propolis.pdf


----------



## mischief

Very interesting and much food for thought.
Thank you!


----------



## lharder

Thanks Russ


----------



## Litsinger

mischief said:


> Very interesting and much food for thought.
> Thank you!





lharder said:


> Thanks Russ


Mischief and LHarder:

I am glad these articles were helpful, and I really sincerely appreciate your input and feedback here and on other TF threads here on Beesource.

Have a great day- Spring (or should I say Fall) is just around the corner!


----------



## Litsinger

Today's high of 53 degrees F and sunny had the bees out for the first time in about a week. It has been mild here but very wet. 

A little gray and light yellow pollen was incoming (assume Winged and American Elm respectively) though they have not yet bloomed immediately around the apiary- it appears imminent.


----------



## Litsinger

I listened to a great podcast this afternoon on the way home with Kim Flottum of Bee Culture with Dr. Tom Seeley. While the whole interview is good, starting at about the 22 minute mark the discussion turns to the subject of Tom's next book, "The Lives of Bees: The Untold Story of the Honey Bee in the Wild".

Dr. Seeley outlines many of the principles he has set forth in 'Darwinian Beekeeping' as well as other thoughts based on Dr. Spivak's work on propolis (https://www.beelab.umn.edu/https:/www.beelab.umn.edu/honey-bees/spivak-honey-bee-lab) and Mr. Mitchell's work on highly insulated hive assemblies (https://engineering.leeds.ac.uk/pgr/457/Derek_Mitchell).

It is well worth the 45 minute investment:

http://beekeepingtodaypodcast.com/dr-tom-d-seeley-honey-bees-in-the-wild-019


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I too am waiting with baited breath for the follow-up. I contacted the Warkwickshire Beekeepers Association to see if they could put me in touch with Dr. Chambers- we'll see if anything materializes.


Dr. Chambers contacted me this morning and advised me that he expects to have the 'Four Incompatible Approaches to Bee Improvement' video up this summer. In the mean time, he said there will be a video concerning the 'Use of Honey in the Management of Various Skin Wounds' in the next few weeks.


----------



## squarepeg

:thumbsup:


----------



## Litsinger

An article published this week in the journal _Genome Biology and Evolution_ explored the genetic disposition of hygienic behavior:

https://academic.oup.com/gbe/advance-article/doi/10.1093/gbe/evz018/5318327

The study was led by Dr. Brock Harpur, now at Purdue University.

A few of the highlights:

_“Living at high densities with close relatives increases the risk of epizootic outbreaks, yet these are the exact conditions in which social insects successfully live… Their success is due in part to their ability to mitigate epizootic risk through two forms of immunity. 

1.	The first is the innate immune system comprised of sets of genes that are conserved and well-characterized across social and solitary taxa. 

2.	The second form of immunity is social immunity, an evolutionarily derived system of prophylactic or curative, occasionally altruistic, responses that limit the spread of pathogens.”

“Social immunity is argued to be effective at reducing the risk of infection to such an extent that it relaxes constraint on the innate immune system. If the genes underpinning social immunity contribute to fitness in social lineages, we would expect those genes to be acted on by natural selection.”

“Our analysis supports the hypothesis that social immunity is important for colony fitness in honey bees and that this fitness benefit is likely to have occurred throughout the history of the genus Apis and not strictly a result of management though beekeeping as our estimates of selection were derived from African honey bee genome; a population of honey bees that is not typically used in commercial beekeeping.”

“Genomic contrasts allowed us to identify a minimum of 73 genes associated with hygienic behaviour.”

“After classifying these 73 candidate genes associated with hygienic behavior based on their phylogenetic origins, we found that 85-98.7% of them are shared among Hymenopterans and Insects, respectively. The origin of novel social traits has been extensively discussed and suggest either that novel genes are key to novel (i.e. evolutionary recent) social traits or novel social traits can arise by re-using and remodelling genes and gene networks regulating analogous traits found in solitary ancestors. Our study supports the latter model for social immunity, given that most of our top candidate genes are taxonomically ancient.”

“The strong conservation of candidate genes support an Evo-Devo hypothesis for the origin of social immunity, and our study suggests a ‘hygienic behaviour tool-kit’.”

“We found that genes associated with hygienic behaviour have evidence of positive selection within honey bees (Apis), supporting the hypothesis that social immunity contributes to fitness.”_


----------



## gww

Russ
You must have a lot of time to study or you are terribly efficient at it. I like how you post the things you find and highlight what you get out of it. It makes it so I don't have to work so hard at it.
Cheers
gww


----------



## mischief

Man!! what a mouthful, dont you feel your eyeballs working hard, trying to wrap themselves around that lot! Sometimes, I wish scientists would talk basic English.
This something I am going to have to chew over for a few days, but did make me wonder how much of our 'keeping' bees interrupts their natural inclinations making them work through and/or around us to keep things going. The point of natural selection being one that I see being the most interfered with.
I too, appreciate your finding these morsels for us to mull over.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I like how you post the things you find and highlight what you get out of it.





mischief said:


> I too, appreciate your finding these morsels for us to mull over.


GWW and Mischief:

Thank you both for your feedback. I am glad I am able to share something of value here.

This study was interesting to me because of two things:

1. The idea of "social immunity", where the various activities (i.e hygienic behavior) of individual bees have a positive impact on the collective disease-resistance of the hive. When you consider this in light of the other observed activities of a colony (i.e. housekeeping, foraging, clustering, etc.) it seems more intuitive.

2. The concept of various long-dormant traits being "unlocked"in response to the disease pressure, i.e. the , _"Evo-Devo hypothesis for the origin of social immunity, and ... a ‘hygienic behaviour tool-kit’.”_

It is encouraging to me as it suggests that genetic adaptation in honey bees will ultimately provide sustainable resistance in the midst of varroa.

Thank you both again for responding- have a great week.

Russ


----------



## gww

Russ


> It is encouraging to me as it suggests that genetic adaptation in honey bees will ultimately provide sustainable resistance in the midst of varroa.


Or it at least suggest that all is not the same in the hives. You can have sick and strong bees in the same hive cause all are not the same. So a sick hive may still survive to have more babies.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Or it at least suggest that all is not the same in the hives. You can have sick and strong bees in the same hive cause all are not the same. So a sick hive may still survive to have more babies.


Good point, GWW. The genetic implications of polyandry seem to be another aspect of the genius of bee reproduction.


----------



## Litsinger

I finally had the opportunity to read Dr. Ramsey's recent research on fat body feeding by varroa (https://www.pnas.org/content/116/5/1792) and must say it is rather compelling.

In a nutshell, his team asserts that varroa feed primarily on the bee's equivalent of our liver and not on their equivalent of our blood as had been previously hypothesized. Through the use of electron microscopy and bio-staining (among other things), the research strongly suggests that this is in-fact the case and has implications for:

1. Immune Function
2. Pesticide Detoxification
3. Overwintering Success

Along with some pretty remarkable images captured with the electron microscope, here are several observations I found interesting:

_“For five decades, we have believed that these mites consume hemolymph like a tick consumes blood, and that Varroa cause harm primarily by vectoring viruses. Our work shows that they cause damage more directly. Varroa externally digest and consume fat body tissue rather than blood. These findings explain the failure of some previous attempts at developing effectively targeted treatment strategies for Varroa control. Furthermore, it provides some explanation for the diverse array of debilitating pathologies associated with Varroa that were unexplained by hemolymph removal alone.”

“We hypothesized that the mites would not randomly disperse on adult bees, but rather, would be found preferentially at sites on the bee that maximized their ability to access their target food source.”

“We examined worker bees in the brood nests of four different colonies, of which 104 had at least one mite present. We observed distinct location biases in these mites (Fig. 1). The majority (n = 99, 95.2%) were found ventrally on the metasoma wedged underneath the overlapping terga or sterna (abdominal plates) of the bee (Figs. 1 and 2 A and B).”















“Images captured via low-temperature scanning electron microscopy revealed a wound in the intersegmental membrane (Fig. 2 C and D) caused by the gnathosoma of the mite (Fig. 2 E and F).”

“Via transmission electron microscopy, we observed externally digested fat body tissue in the wounds of parasitized bees. Mites in their reproductive phase were then fed a diet composed of one or both tissues. Mites fed hemolymph showed fitness metrics no different from the starved control. Mites fed fat body survived longer and produced more eggs than those fed hemolymph, suggesting that fat body is integral to their diet when feeding on brood as well. Collectively, these findings strongly suggest that Varroa are exploiting the fat body as their primary source of sustenance: a tissue integral to proper immune function, pesticide detoxification, overwinter survival, and several other essential processes in healthy bees.”

“Varroa obtain a substantial fitness benefit from feeding on nurse bees but very little, if any, from newly emerged bees or foragers. The size and content of fat body tissue is not consistent over a bee’s life. Both newly emerged bees and foragers have depleted fat body tissue (from the demands of metamorphosis in the former and changes associated with task shifting from feeding larvae in the latter), likely contributing to both life stages functioning as nutrient-poor host resources. Nurse bees have substantially larger and, ostensibly, more nutritionally dense fat body than other stages of the worker bee caste.”

“The essential role of the fat body in hormone regulation, immune response, and especially pesticide detoxification makes an understanding of the relationship between this parasite and this tissue particularly relevant to ongoing discussions on the causes of honey bee health decline.”

“… the digestive system and mouthparts of this mite are structured in ways we would expect from an organism that feeds on semisolid tissue via extraoral digestion rather than hemolymph. “

“Evidence of extraoral digestion in this study provides further weight to the finding that a significant volume of apparent salivary content is left behind after Varroa feed. How long this material remains bioactive is not yet known, but likely extends the impact of feeding beyond the volume of tissue directly consumed by the mite. In addition, when parasitizing brood, Varroa feeding events are frequent and result in the removal of about 0.86 µL of tissue after 1.5 h. Similar behavior during the average of 7 d that Varroa spend parasitizing adult bees would likely lead to substantial damage to fat body tissue after only a few days. These implications are relevant to natural and induced broodless periods that force the entire population of mites onto adult bees, where their feeding damages essential tissue and transmits viruses.”

“Recent work has shown that honey bees fed upon by Varroa suffer damage from pesticides even at concentrations that previously would have been inert, suggesting that their feeding on this tissue may disrupt the process of pesticide detoxification.”

“Healthy fat body tissue is also critical to overwintering success; thus, these findings underscore an imperative for beekeepers to reduce Varroa populations in colonies before the emergence of so-called ‘winter bees’. Simple reduction of mite loads late in the season to decrease the overwinter parasite load may not be enough, as it still allows for the mites to damage tissue critical to the process of overwintering as the bees prepare for this period.”_


----------



## Litsinger

Took the opportunity to read Dr. Seeley's _'How Honey Bee Colonies Survive in the Wild: Testing the Importance of Small Nests and Frequent Swarming'_ research published in 2016 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0150362).

As the title foreshadows, the research suggests that the smaller brood numbers and more frequent brood breaks (due to swarming) as a result of smaller colony volumes (42 liters) positively affect overall varroa mitigation and lead to decreased hive mortality. 

This concept appears to be one of the cornerstones of his so-coined, _'Darwinian Beekeeping'_ model.

A few of the noteworthy observations:

_“The ectoparasitic mite, Varroa destructor, and the viruses that it transmits, kill the colonies of European honey bees (Apis mellifera) kept by beekeepers unless the bees are treated with miticides. Nevertheless, there exist populations of wild colonies of European honey bees that are persisting without being treated with miticides. We hypothesized that the persistence of these wild colonies is due in part to their habits of nesting in small cavities and swarming frequently. We tested this hypothesis by establishing two groups of colonies living either in small hives (42 L) without swarm-control treatments or in large hives (up to 168 L) with swarm-control treatments. We followed the colonies for two years and compared the two groups with respect to swarming frequency, Varroa infestation rate, disease incidence, and colony survival. Colonies in small hives swarmed more often, had lower Varroa infestation rates, had less disease, and had higher survival compared to colonies in large hives. These results indicate that the smaller nest cavities and more frequent swarming of wild colonies contribute to their persistence without mite treatments.”

“… investigators have reported populations of European honey bee colonies living in the wild that have persisted without mite-control treatments, despite being infested with Varroa (Brazil, Russia, Sweden, France, and United States). In all of these populations, selective pressures by the mites and viruses have probably produced genetic changes in the bees that give them intrinsic resistance to these parasites and pathogens.”

“However, there may also be environmental factors that are making it possible for wild colonies to survive mite infestations without mite treatments, when managed colonies cannot. We hypothesized that the relatively small nest cavities of wild colonies might partially explain their greater ability to survive Varroa infestations without treatments.”

“The results of this study support the hypothesis that the persistence of wild colonies is aided by their habits of nesting in small cavities and swarming frequently. By the end of the second summer of the study, the colonies living in small hives had a mean Varroa infestation rate of adult bees that was only about one third of that found in the colonies living in large hives. Moreover, while none of the small-hive colonies showed signs of disease, seven of the 12 large-hive colonies showed symptoms of high infection with the deformed wing virus (DWV), which is closely associated with a high infestation of Varroa. Furthermore, all seven of the colonies with symptoms of high infections of DWV died by April 2014. It seems clear that the colonies living in the large hives were more susceptible to Varroa than the colonies living in the small hives; the higher Varroa infestation rates impaired their health and survival, so that in the end only 2 out of 12 large-hive colonies were still alive. In contrast, the small-hive colonies had relatively low Varroa infestation rates, did not show symptoms of high DWV infections, and had better survival with 8 out of 12 colonies still alive at the end of the study.”_


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I finally had the opportunity to read Dr. Ramsey's recent research on fat body feeding by varroa (https://www.pnas.org/content/116/5/1792) and must say it is rather compelling.


Here's a good article from 'Entomology Today' that summarizes the process and findings in plain English:

https://entomologytoday.org/2019/02/21/inside-look-how-varroa-mite-diet-discovered/


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Here's a good article from 'Entomology Today' that summarizes the process and findings in plain English:
> 
> https://entomologytoday.org/2019/02/21/inside-look-how-varroa-mite-diet-discovered/


A great find; thanks.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> A great find; thanks.


Thanks, GregV. I appreciate your feedback.

Have a great weekend.

Russ


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## Litsinger

A neat research paper published late last year in the _Journal of Economic Entomology_ evaluates propolis disposition in hives with various interior treatment methods:

_‘Textured Hive Interiors Increase Honey Bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Propolis–Hoarding Behavior’_:

https://academic.oup.com/jee/advance-article/doi/10.1093/jee/toy363/5199372

Specifically, the research evaluated three (3) methods and one (1) control:

1) Plastic propolis trap.
2) five parallel horizontal saw kerfs, 7 cm apart, cut 0.3 cm deep into the surface. 
3) roughening the interior surface with a mechanized wire brush.
4) unmodified planed (smooth) interior surface (nontexturized control).

Their results suggested that, _“…none of the texturing methods was statistically distinguishable from another.”_

That said, there were some interesting tidbits outlined in the paper, namely:
_
“… resin-foraging specialists are more sensitive than pollen foragers to tactile information in the nest interior, and they respond to these stimuli by collecting more resin.”

“Although direct health benefits were not measured, this work shows that it is comparatively simple to increase propolis deposition above background levels by increasing textural stimuli in hive interiors.”

“… new knowledge on the contributions of propolis to worker bee immune response and colony social immunity makes clear that propolis deposition in the nest is adaptive and contributes positively to honey bee health at many levels of social organization.”

“A leading hypothesis emerging… is that the collection of plant resins evolved as a colony-level adaptation for relieving workers of the need for sustaining an energetically costly immune response, especially when the colony is not being challenged by pathogens.”_


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## Litsinger

Today's high of 62 and sunny (albeit windy) had both hives foraging in earnest after over a week of significant rainfall.

Most of the pollen was gray in color (presumably American Elm) but there was a smattering of yellow and even a bit of light green in there (maybe a hazel or hornbeam?).

The Red Maples have just started blooming (older trees on higher ground) and the Winged Elm should bloom in the next day or two.

Also saw the first Dandelion of the season this afternoon.

Finally, I took my first sting of the year, so it felt good to be back in the game .


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## lharder

And I am still stuck in the 0 to -15 C range. During a mild spring we sometimes have some pollen by the end of February. This arctic air mass has been hanging around for 3 weeks now even if it has moderated a bit. Its been mild before this and I think a few plants were fooled with bud development, and may suffer as a result. Once things get going things are going to move quickly.


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## Litsinger

lharder said:


> Its been mild before this and I think a few plants were fooled with bud development, and may suffer as a result. Once things get going things are going to move quickly.


LHarder:

Glad to hear from you. Our Februarys around here are notorious for bringing in a sustained warm-up which causes early blooming, only to plummet back down and nip the early growth. It is a factor that has limited short-season fruit tree production in our state.

I imagine this dynamic pentalizes colonies around here that gamble early too.

I do hope temperatures moderate for you, and best of success in the coming season.


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## crofter

Litsinger said:


> LHarder:
> 
> Glad to hear from you. Our Februarys around here are notorious for bringing in a sustained warm-up which causes early blooming, only to plummet back down and nip the early growth. It is a factor that has limited short-season fruit tree production in our state.
> 
> I imagine this dynamic pentalizes colonies around here that gamble early too.
> 
> I do hope temperatures moderate for you, and best of success in the coming season.


Yes but we have to preserve those optimist bees! Those will be the ones that excel in the early spring years. In nature, if they fail, their location, comb and any remaining stores will be the making of a successfull swarm by a more conservative colony. Resiliency at the species level is King.

Did I mention that I am skeptical of efforts to produce the "Super Bee"!  As long as you don't purposefully (or accidentally) bottleneck the bees genetic potential I think their inherent programming will do an adequate job of thwarting your efforts! 

Russ, as gww mentioned you certainly have a system for dredging up a mountain of information. Sometimes I wonder though if ever more information only complicates decision making.

The way this winter appears to be headed in Canada should see it stay cold a bit longer and when spring comes it will be here to stay. The years with several false springs are really cruel to the bees. My son lost quite a few colonies one year that got locked on brood and starved, inches from lots of stores. Amazing how quickly they can perish.


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## Litsinger

crofter said:


> Yes but we have to preserve those optimist bees! Those will be the ones that excel in the early spring years. In nature, if they fail, their location, comb and any remaining stores will be the making of a successfull swarm by a more conservative colony. Resiliency at the species level is King.
> 
> Did I mention that I am skeptical of efforts to produce the "Super Bee"!  As long as you don't purposefully (or accidentally) bottleneck the bees genetic potential I think their inherent programming will do an adequate job of thwarting your efforts!


Frank:

As always, I sincerely appreciate your sage and thoughtful advice.

My current line of thinking as it relates to apicultural husbandry is one of 'benign neglect'. In other words, the only disqualifying factor in my current TF experiment is death.

While I haven't near the perspective that you (and others) on this forum have, it seems prudent to me that having diversity in the yard is at least part of the formula for long-term sustainability, so I am not prepared (at least initially) to select for anything but survival.

I have even seen this dynamic play out in my little two-horse bee yard this winter:

Hive #1803 has clustered at the very top of the stack and has been largely stagnant during warm days this winter until the last few days where there has been a veritable explosion of pollen gathering.

Hive #1804 on the other hand has clustered at the very bottom of the stack and has been steadily gathering pollen every day there has been flying weather all winter and are currently bringing in only modest amounts of pollen.



crofter said:


> Russ, as gww mentioned you certainly have a system for dredging up a mountain of information. Sometimes I wonder though if ever more information only complicates decision making.


I can appreciate your admonition here- I am analytical through-and-through, so research is enjoyable to me. That said, I don't want to burden our forum with information that is not helpful to the group at-large.



crofter said:


> Amazing how quickly they can perish.


This I certainly understand- to-date I am more successful at killing bees than keeping bees.

Thanks again for the advice and input- I really do appreciate it.

Russ


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ... the only disqualifying factor in my current TF experiment is death.
> 
> ... I am not prepared (at least initially) to select for anything but survival.
> 
> Russ


+100.

As long as the material is alive - you can work with it (no matter how sub-optimal the material may be).
No matter how crappy the bees are otherwise, they still have value for as long as they stay afloat in mite-infested environment.

The only thing I am asking of my bees - resist those mites with your own tools whatever those tools may be. 
I don't pretend to understand what those tools are.
The housing and emergency feeding is on me.


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## lharder

crofter said:


> Yes but we have to preserve those optimist bees! Those will be the ones that excel in the early spring years. In nature, if they fail, their location, comb and any remaining stores will be the making of a successfull swarm by a more conservative colony. Resiliency at the species level is King.
> 
> Did I mention that I am skeptical of efforts to produce the "Super Bee"!  As long as you don't purposefully (or accidentally) bottleneck the bees genetic potential I think their inherent programming will do an adequate job of thwarting your efforts!
> 
> Russ, as gww mentioned you certainly have a system for dredging up a mountain of information. Sometimes I wonder though if ever more information only complicates decision making.
> 
> The way this winter appears to be headed in Canada should see it stay cold a bit longer and when spring comes it will be here to stay. The years with several false springs are really cruel to the bees. My son lost quite a few colonies one year that got locked on brood and starved, inches from lots of stores. Amazing how quickly they can perish.


I don't believe in super bees either, but local adaptation is just basic ecological theory. I check for stores and give the gamblers more resources if I get to them in time. Overall last year it was the middling colonies that seemed to produce the most honey. A couple of those were the true monsters of the bee yard. There is some theory that indicates variation in things that don't much, or perhaps as a result of tracking variable things like the weather. But in vital stuff, genetics is more conservative and probably less variable. We will see going forward what happens to variability in things like mite resistance as I am developing a data set. There will always be pressure on that right hand side of the curve. Mite resistance optimization will determine the ultimate shape of the curve if regimes of selection and limited gene flow are followed. 

My stock is a bit of a hodge podge at the moment no doubt because of too much gene flow. I don't want to eliminate outside gene flow, just throttle it down a bit. My bees will grab useful traits, reduce inbreeding as some cost in terms of mite resistance, but long term useful.


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## crofter

If you were indeed able to selectively achieve bees that would peak perform at the center of your climate average and taper off as the extremes approached, I think you would be hurting your game unless you had very stable and predictable weather.

I agree wholeheartedly with making genetic changes if the background of your stock was similar to a bee type adapted to almonds and you were deploying them in the interior of BC. Would it not be easier to acquire, say, Carni habit bees rather than trying to elicit that behavior from amongst a stock of bees that have mostly long forgotten those habits.

If the quest is mite survivability then that could be a different issue. One thing for certain though is that trying to simultaneously select for multiple traits vastly complicates any selection process. It does not take away the satisfaction of trying it though! I have been there with cattle and chickens. Some people have spent a fortune searching for compatible traits for their own mates!


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## gww

If I were the type trying to change what was around me (which I have not worried about yet), I think Randy olivers suggestion of just breeding from second year hives that are strong enough to want to swarm would be a good starting point. No way by doing that can a person get confused with all the other things you could also use. If you are in it for the long term, the other stuff can be worked on after everything decides to keep living and propagating with out help. I love reading all this stuff for hints when it does not work but am a big believer in changing things slowly and one thing at a time so you can compare what the change did for you. 
Cheers
gww

ps Of course my other instinct is to just make lots with what you have and play the numbers that something will still be around no matter how many die.


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## crofter

George Imrie spoke against Carni bees and their swarming traits! I just learned I have to take action before they do! I keep them smaller and they give me a decent crop and are dead solid at wintering on minimal stores. They really are bees you can work without protection except a bit touchy when newly queenless. I would be soft in the head to think I should try to fix that.

If you like to google, look up Tibor Szabo list of published studies on honey bees. Much of it is now history.

The pollination model of beekeeping throws an awesome challenge into dealing with transmittable bee pests and disease. I have serious doubts about whether the bees are capable of adapting to such a compromising situation. A bit like throwing a chameleon down on a MacDonald tartan and expecting him to change colours to match them. Many people really, really want it to be so, but Mother nature does not exactly have them on speed dial!


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The only thing I am asking of my bees - resist those mites with your own tools whatever those tools may be.
> I don't pretend to understand what those tools are.
> The housing and emergency feeding is on me.





lharder said:


> I don't believe in super bees either, but local adaptation is just basic ecological theory.





crofter said:


> One thing for certain though is that trying to simultaneously select for multiple traits vastly complicates any selection process.





gww said:


> I think Randy olivers suggestion of just breeding from second year hives that are strong enough to want to swarm would be a good starting point.


Gents:

I really appreciate this discussion- From my admittedly limited vantage point, I think there are a lot of good precepts contained in your collective commentary.
For me personally, I (like GregV) think survival is the preeminent trait one has to start with. This is an obvious comment, but in a TF construct it is the first (and no-doubt highest) hurdle one must overcome before attempting to jump over any others.

I too am convinced (like LHarder) that local adaptation is possible and may be more prevalent than we might expect (by research if not by experience), but also may vary wildly in expression and efficacy depending upon myriad factors (isolation being one) that are largely outside of the beekeeper’s control.

Even my very rudimentary understanding of bee breeding has persuaded me (like Crofter) that selecting for even a single trait is difficult and fraught with variability in an open-breeding context so I have resigned myself to leaving this worthy and yeoman-like work to the experts.

Finally, I think that GWW’s suggestion to propagate from 2nd year survivors is a great next step, particularly when augmented with MSL’s wise suggestion to use long-term mite count data as a proxy for suitability. In other words, if one has the choice to propagate two otherwise equal ‘survivor’ colonies, the one with the lower historical mite count has been statistically shown by the current body of research to exhibit better long-term survival ( i.e. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-017-0519-1).

Again, I really do appreciate the great, experienced feedback you gents have shared.

Thank you for your help. I do appreciate it.

Russ


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## Litsinger

crofter said:


> Some people have spent a fortune searching for compatible traits for their own mates!





crofter said:


> A bit like throwing a chameleon down on a MacDonald tartan and expecting him to change colours to match them. Many people really, really want it to be so, but Mother nature does not exactly have them on speed dial!


Frank:

I simply wanted to comment that your analogies make me smile- you have quite a humorous way of painting word pictures in true Yogi Berra fashion that have a way of effectively getting your point across.


----------



## lharder

crofter said:


> If you were indeed able to selectively achieve bees that would peak perform at the center of your climate average and taper off as the extremes approached, I think you would be hurting your game unless you had very stable and predictable weather.
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly with making genetic changes if the background of your stock was similar to a bee type adapted to almonds and you were deploying them in the interior of BC. Would it not be easier to acquire, say, Carni habit bees rather than trying to elicit that behavior from amongst a stock of bees that have mostly long forgotten those habits.
> 
> If the quest is mite survivability then that could be a different issue. One thing for certain though is that trying to simultaneously select for multiple traits vastly complicates any selection process. It does not take away the satisfaction of trying it though! I have been there with cattle and chickens. Some people have spent a fortune searching for compatible traits for their own mates!



I think that is why global parameters like production, winter survival, low mite counts (this one not quite as global) are used for selection. Theorists way back describe biological success as a n dimensional volume. A multivariate problem that is difficult trait by trait, but genetic systems are well adapted to solve these problems. Variables like mite biting, vsh is tracked not to specifically select for them, but to see how global selection affects their relative frequency in the population. Using bees as a model, with introduced pests as relatively new challenge, there is perhaps opportunity to dig into how nature problem solves and compare it to our own trait based selection methods.


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## crofter

Nature comes up with solutions by looking backwards; the clarity of hindsight. I think too often, man tries to project the process into the future by making stipulations about the conditions for the bees to experience. Then he complicates things by his subjective interpretation of results. Do we risk long term survival of their species by some unintended consequences we cause to their adaptive processes? 

I dont know; I think that man is on the verge of getting his hands on technology with potentials that he doesn't have the wisdom to deal with the potential consequences of. Sometimes our interpretation of what is declared as "common sense" has gotten us into some nasty situations environmentally and philosophically. Seemed like a good idea at the time!


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## Litsinger

lharder said:


> A multivariate problem that is difficult trait by trait, but genetic systems are well adapted to solve these problems.





crofter said:


> ... we risk long term survival of their species by some unintended consequences we cause to their adaptive processes?


LHarder and Crofer:

While I know very little about bee reproduction on the cellular level, what little I have been able to take in seems to suggest that of all creatures, honeybees might rank right up there in terms of inherent resilience against genetic collapse. That said, now that we are tinkering with gene editing, this may represent a seismic paradigm shift in the underlying selection mechanisms that even the relative wealth of the bee’s genetic code cannot overcome. A sobering reality when one considers it.


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## Litsinger

Put out two swarm traps this afternoon to get ahead of the game and to see if people really do catch swarms in March in Kentucky:

https://www.beesource.com/forums/#/topics/351987?page=1

I also installed a trap-out rig on the hive at my office based on the good advice of Cleo. Hogan- we'll see what happens:


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## JWPalmer

Russ, you and I both. I set and baited two traps here in Richmond today also. I have been saying that in some parts, swarm season is going to be early. I am getting ready too although I am olny setting six this year.


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## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> I have been saying that in some parts, swarm season is going to be early.


JW:

Good to hear from you and I am glad you are getting ahead of the curve too. If you don't mind me asking, what clue or clues are you seeing that suggest that swarm season will be early in your area?

I would have said the same for here in January, but we had a cold, wet February and have a week of well-below-average temperatures on the horizon which has caused many of the early blooming plants to pause. In fact, we are now behind last year locally, and this was after a brutally cold January 2018... but that is here.

Thanks again for your input, and good luck with your swarm trapping!

Russ


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## Litsinger

Installed two swarm traps (double 10-frame mediums) this evening at the home place with inventions of installing one in the morning at a friend's place. The idea of installing swarm traps while wearing a winter coat, gloves and a sock cap seemed a bit ambitious... ; Better early than late, right?

Update: Installed swarm trap #5 this morning (3.5) in a well-placed tree stand. That leaves nine remaining to be deployed.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Better early than late, right?


Kind of.
Be mindful to evict any wasps and ants that will try take it over.
If wasps/ants/whoever take over your traps before any bees show up - the bees are less likely to move in.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Be mindful to evict any wasps and ants that will try take it over.
> If wasps/ants/whoever take over your traps before any bees show up - the bees are less likely to move in.


Good advice, GregV. I had to evict several red wasps, yellow jackets and spiders that had taken up temporary residence in one of the traps that had been left up through the fall- glad I saw no evidence of any wax moth cocoons. I'll keep an eye out for the wrong kind of settlers moving in.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Just read an interesting article posted at _The Atlantic_ which outlines an ambitious experiment carried out with mice that demonstrated that rapid adaptation to environmental pressure is possible (at least in mice):
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/science...entedly-thorough-evolution-experiment/581521/
> 
> “It demonstrates how quickly natural selection can occur when there is variation present in a population, and how genetic changes can be tracked in real time in natural systems,” says Erica Bree Rosenblum from University of California, Berkeley."[/I]


Another recent research article published this week seems to lend credence to the idea that phenotypical adaptation can occur rapidly in response to selection pressure at least in some species (this time lice):

https://phys.org/news/2019-03-biologists-experimentally-trigger.html

The punchline is as follows:

_"To test whether preening selects for different colors of the lice, they infested 96 lice-free rock pigeons with unpainted lice: 32 white, 32 black and 32 grey pigeons received 25 lice each. Within each color, half of the birds preened normally while half wore the bits that impaired preening. The lice stayed on these birds over the entire course of the experiment—four years, resulting in about 60 generations of offspring. Every six months the biologists sampled the lice and took photographs to analyze the luminosity (the relative lightness or darkness) of the parasites, then put them back on the birds.

The luminosity of lice on white and black pigeons changed significantly relative to the color of lice on the control grey pigeons—the lice on white pigeons got dramatically lighter, while the lice on black birds got darker. By the end of the experiment, the lightest lice on white pigeons were as light as the lightest species of lice in the entire genus."_


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## Litsinger

Installed two more swarm traps this evening, leaving me with seven that I need to get out. One is a double 10 frame medium set-up that I made by ripping two ratty deeps and loading with a total of twenty-two narrow frames. Unintentionally, I am going to observe how an entrance through the bottom plate works as I observed to my dismay once loaded that a hole in the side of a brood box with 11 frames allows very little room for entry- nothing a little black duct tape can't fix...


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## Litsinger

Installed the last of four swarm traps at the home place tonight. This leaves three to be installed offsite and I expect to get these all out next week.

Regarding the two colonies I have at present, both are hanging-tough:

#1803 is still at the very top of the stack and is growing and restless- they are taking advantage of every hour of flying weather to bring pollen in.

#1804 is still at the very bottom of the stack and seems to be in no hurry- they have been bringing in modest amounts of pollen all winter when the weather allows.

My plan at present will be to checkerboard both hives mid next week when the anticipated high is above 70.

In addition, I plan to experiment with nadiring a box of foundationless frames to the very bottom of both hives during the checkerboard manipulation to attempt a systematic comb renewal approach- we'll see what happens.


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## Litsinger

On the landing board this morning...


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## Litsinger

Here is an interesting pair of videos from last year's National Honey Show featuring the venerable Roger Patterson, current curator of the http://dave-cushman.net/ site and a very experienced beekeeper in his own right and Dr. Clarence Collison, Emeritus Head of the Department of Entomology and Plant Pathology at Mississippi State University.

While there is quite a lot they come at from different perspectives, they seem to agree that miticides are a significant contributor to early queen failure, both in terms of the queens themselves and their drone progeny.

Both talks are worthwhile, and the Q+A at the end is insightful too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wrW_04iJ_c&t=1591s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ9OxDsTu6M


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## lharder

I watched those talks. Trends of overall weakening of stock associated with treatment regimes. More and more people recommending local queens.


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## Litsinger

lharder said:


> I watched those talks. Trends of overall weakening of stock associated with treatment regimes. More and more people recommending local queens.


LHarder:

Good synopsis- it is interesting to see local genetics becoming more of a mainstream recommendation- hopefully this will become more normative in the coming years.


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## Litsinger

The 'bee tree' colony here at my office was out in force today- looks like I am going to have to do a more substantial tape job as they are largely avoiding my box and accompanying entrance - lots of incoming pollen.


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## Litsinger

Both for the benefit of those who have come to this thread late and also to hold myself accountable, I wanted to take a moment to briefly outline the fundamental assumptions undergirding the accompanying plans/goals I have made for this upcoming season.

I returned to beekeeping last year after a long absence, purchasing two packages and catching two swarms, with a philosophical preference to practice ‘treatment-free’ apiculture, but having no practical experience in this particular management approach.

All four colonies built-up successfully through the Spring/Summer, but by early December both package starts had succumbed to varroosis- a very sobering process to watch unfold.

As of today (May 11th) both hived swarms remain active and queenright.

My very-limited first year experience has led me to formulate several hypotheses as a ‘proof of concept’ that I hope to explore/advance/reject in the coming year as follows:

#1 Locally-Adapted Stock- Based on the current survival of the hived swarms relative to the package starts, I am operating on a working assumption that locally-adapted stock is sufficiently developed in my particular area to both maximize their survival relative to our local climate and forage profile and to also sustainably resist varroa pressure. Based on this assumption, I have a goal to set-out fifteen (15) swarm/colony trapping set-ups predominantly in more remote areas in my area which are presumed to be relatively less influenced by managed apiaries.

#2 Prime Swarms- Related to #1, I am working under the assumption that prime swarms are the best that nature has to offer, namely a colony split from an overwintered queen operating in the face of varroa pressure (maybe). Based on this assumption, I am working to get my swarm trapping set-ups out as early as possible (by Mid-March) to presumably have the best chances of catching as many prime swarms as I can throughout the Spring.

#3 Circumspect Propagation- Assuming that a caught swarm is an unknown commodity relative to both treatment-free survival and beneficial management traits, I am proceeding with a plan to not make nucs nor splits from hived swarms until such time they have overwintered successfully at least once. Beyond overwintering successfully, I intend to conduct regular, periodic mite drop counts to assess the relative mite management success of each hive against both other hives in the apiary and other industry-standard evaluations. All things equal, hives with a lower relative mite count would be favored for propagation.

#4 Foundationless- Assuming that ‘small-cell’ foundation has an indeterminate impact on mite resistance and that feral colonies successfully survive in the absence of foundation, I am proceeding with a plan to move toward a foundationless approach. It is also assumed that drones have a net positive impact on overall colony health, so no efforts will be initially undertaken to intentionally minimize the amount of drones a colony will be allowed to raise at any given period in the season.

#5 Benevolent Neglect- Somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I am working under the hypothesis that genetic diversity confers unique strengths and weaknesses to colonies based on both the queen and the drones she has mated with- at least from the beekeeper’s perspective. As such, the only initial constraint which will be placed on hived swarms will be survival in the absence of treatments. If/when a stable apiary population can be maintained, I will plan on setting subservient apiary improvement goals such as improved production and temperament, decreased swarm proclivity, etc.

#6 Miscellaneous- I do hope to explore:

A.	Nectar Management- a.k.a. ‘Checkerboarding’
B.	Systematic Comb Renewal
C.	Narrow Frames

Primary Goal for 2019 Season- End the year with at least six colonies which are adequately provisioned and in relatively good shape to overwinter.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> *I returned to beekeeping last year after a long absence,* .................. *with a philosophical preference to practice ‘treatment-free’ apiculture, but having no practical experience in this particular management approach.*


This is pretty much me, Russ!
Well, returned 3 seasons ago after loooooong time off (into my 4th summer now).
Chased down all my bees for free though. 
Otherwise, exactly the same.

For 2019 - I need to make some honey this summer, on top of the bee making too.
The kids have been all over me (having bees but no honey is rather strange).

All good points.

Regarding #2 - I still believe late swarms are of value (not just the prime swarms). 
My very first bees upon the re-entry were very late August swarms (throw-away swarms, basically).
I successfully overwintered one of the two, on straight sugar diet.
Only due to lack of experience with chem-free management I lost them the next season.
They could have been with me still, if not for being my very first Ginnie pigs.

Regarding #5 - not totally hands-off approach. 
I still believe into artificial swarming of the bees as a way to emulate the natural swarming.
Bees need annual swarming cycle for general health regardless of the mite presence (coincidentally, this helps with mite management too just as a general management tool).
There are ways to implement the "swarms" in controlled fashion.
So - not totally hands-off approach. 
I'd rather keep my swarms to myself also, if I can only help it.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> My swarm hiving strategy for this year follows. Goal is to successfully hive at least four swarms.
> Last year, I put the two bait hives out in late April and caught a swarm in each by early May. In retrospect, these should have been out much sooner, at least based on feedback from the Kentucky State Beekeeping Association. Per the past two statewide surveys (linked below), beekeepers in Kentucky have reported hiving swarms starting in early March. As such, I intend to have all traps out by mid-February.


Litsinger, If you were 2 for 2 last year then IMO buying bees is not necessary. In My experience the spot where you catch a swarm has some underlying mystic reasons. Including flyways, lay lines, space, habitat and several more reasons. I have caught 80% of my swarms on 20% of the places. Said another way If you have a spot you catch at , it may produce every year and even more than one a year. keep track of the successes and reuse those spots each year, if a spot fails for 2 years move it even 100 feet may do the trick. It is possible you get a swarm in the same genetic line each year as the same tree casts a swarm. Keep track of the really good survivors and maybe put your hatching Q cells there to get Drones from that spot. I would even in the best case scenario, if you had a good survivors, leave a small Apiary there for mating Queens, as the local DCA may be optimized for that line. Also if you notice in time,, remove the caught swarm asap and place another bait hive on the same spot you may get a multi cast smaller swarm 4-10 days later, same genetic line. If one of the farms you mentioned do very good put a few more bait hives there. Consider the following, an early caught swarm that you do not like for any reason, Meanest, you know it's from a migratory hive,etc. you can take that "nest" kill the queen and merge it with a late swarm from your favorite area that is late, maybe can't make the winter late. Get good at catching swarms and tracking which areas or farms seem to be the survivor stock. If possible track survive ability on the different farms, You may find one of the farms is a great place for the bees to survive for some now unknown reason. example a tree species that provides the better or best propolis for keeping the hive healthier. Or one farm is near spraying or polluted water supply. I have found some places where no matter what I do the bees just do not seem to prosper. I.E do not overlook all facets of apiary location, Local DCA that is good today, is better than trying to create One. With several farm choices you may also be able to leverage this to your advantage. A great swarm catcher may be easier than becoming a great Artificial Inseminator. Thank you for sharing your experiences, we all can learn from each others mistakes or insight.
GG


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Regarding #2 - I still believe late swarms are of value (not just the prime swarms).
> 
> Regarding #5 - I still believe into artificial swarming of the bees as a way to emulate the natural swarming.


GregV:

Great reply. I'll be the first to admit that I haven't enough experience to ascertain just exactly how swarming in general fits into a TF management approach, but I see there are several schools of thought on this, and I see the logic in each.

My general approach thus far in returning to beekeeping is looking to mimic nature as much as is practical, with obvious concessions (i.e. movable comb, larger cavity volumes, etc. to suit my needs).

Considering what bees do when left to their own devices certainly lends credence to the benefit of frequent swarming, within limits.

All that said, my current general thoughts on swarms/queen replacement in the apiary are thus (and are certainly subject to change):

1. Prime swarms in general are the best swarms to hive because they tend to be the earliest, the largest and come with a mated, overwintered queen. That is not to say I would not gladly take a subsequent swarm, just that the odds favor the prime swarm in terms of survival.

2. Extremely early swarms (especially from my yard) are generally a bad thing because of the risk of not getting the emerging queen mated and the loss of potential surplus production- thus 'checkerboarding' seems to present a viable option to forestall (and possibly prevent) swarming in colonies intended for production- maybe the considerations are different for a colony which is intended to be a featured genetic contributor?

3. Along with swarming itself, I am keenly interested in the factors that lead to timely and successful queen supercedure (which also typically introduces a brood break too). It seems that there is a corollary between swarm timing and supercedure timing, that when these processes occur when they should both in terms of colony status and at seasonally-appropriate times they augment colony survival.

4. Beyond the above, I do not intend to initially take other intensive measures to reduce swarm pressure besides hopefully providing sufficient volume at the appropriate juncture. I figure if I lose a few swarms to the trees, it both helps augment good genetics in my DCA's and is my way to give back to nature what is already hers.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Thank you for sharing your experiences, we all can learn from each others mistakes or insight.
> GG


...and thank you Gray Goose for your excellent, thoughtful and information-dense reply. It is obvious from your feedback that you have a lot of first-hand experience working with swarms and have thought through many of the genetic implications of trap and mating yard placement. In fact, I had to go back and read through your reply carefully three times to feel confident I had gathered everything from it.

I like you really appreciate the community participation and sharing here on this forum- everyone is very generous with their time and expertise, and let me welcome you to offer your commentary on this thread anytime.

Unintentionally, you have already caught me missing one of my goals for this year, namely to have all my swarm traps out by mid-February. Here it is almost mid-March and I still have two more to go. I console myself by saying that February was unseasonably cold and wet here...

Finally, my record keeping has much room for improvement. I've attached a photo of my current accounting of swarm trap deployment- at least I have tried to keep track of the tree species they are attached to.

Thank you again for your helpful input. It is sincerely appreciated. 

Russ


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## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> In Russia/Ukraine they address exactly this starting in early spring (March) - they start using heavy plastic film on top and cut all the ventilation - thus forcing significant condensation by design.
> Condensation benefits outweigh the harm starting early spring - bees need not fly out during bad weather for water - it is warm enough not to worry of the condensation anymore.
> Also, the tight film top seals in the warmth.
> This is said to help with early spring brooding.


As I recall bees need to mix water with honey to make "feed" for them selves and the new Brood. They really are "nectar" eaters, I would think at times of warmth they can collect the droplets of water inside the hive to use for thinning the honey to make food. respiration then places the moisture back onto the hive walls to be recycled sort of. Too much ventilation could retard early brood rearing. I do place 2 to 3 times the insulation on the top of the hive, compared to the sides. Water dripping on the bees is very bad. leaving 1 wall exposed to "attract" the condensation in an interesting concept. I noticed this year that water has run down the walls of the hive freezing and blocking the bottom entrance, so this week I am head to the bee shed with a torch and a hive tool. heat the tool and use it the melt the ice at the bottom entrance, or maybe remove the top entrance blocker. Not sure yet the best approach.

RE: Trap size, I would think as you go north the trap size "could" be expanded. the calculation for comb space to hold enough honey to over winter , depends on the "local winter" Seeley did his experiment in his locale so keep in mind that fact in his observations. A couple times I have prepped supers and stacked them in front of the garage for a few days to a week before finding the time to place them on hives. the 2 biggest swarms I ever caught were in these 6 foot high stacks of supers, by accident. Reading this thread has got me wondering. In Northern Michigan 2 feet of snow still on the ground. Thanks for the interesting thread.
GG


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> ...and thank you Gray Goose for your excellent, thoughtful and information-dense reply. It is obvious from your feedback that you have a lot of first-hand experience working with swarms and have thought through many of the genetic implications of trap and mating yard placement. In fact, I had to go back and read through your reply carefully three times to feel confident I had gathered everything from it.
> 
> I like you really appreciate the community participation and sharing here on this forum- everyone is very generous with their time and expertise, and let me welcome you to offer your commentary on this thread anytime.
> 
> Unintentionally, you have already caught me missing one of my goals for this year, namely to have all my swarm traps out by mid-February. Here it is almost mid-March and I still have two more to go. I console myself by saying that February was unseasonably cold and wet here...
> 
> Finally, my record keeping has much room for improvement. I've attached a photo of my current accounting of swarm trap deployment- at least I have tried to keep track of the tree species they are attached to.
> 
> Thank you again for your helpful input. It is sincerely appreciated.
> 
> Russ


Russ you are on the correct track, add a column for surviving the first winter. Good luck with the catch this spring. I hope to get about 10 traps out once the snow melts.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> The 'bee tree' colony here at my office was out in force today- looks like I am going to have to do a more substantial tape job as they are largely avoiding my box and accompanying entrance - lots of incoming pollen.
> 
> View attachment 46543
> View attachment 46545
> View attachment 46547
> View attachment 46549


Why are you blocking the tree? I would think placing a trap somewhere nearby would be a good Idea. I do not understand trying to trap the bees into a Hive. How will you convince the queen to come out?
GG


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## clong

Litsinger said:


> The 'bee tree' colony here at my office was out in force today- looks like I am going to have to do a more substantial tape job as they are largely avoiding my box and accompanying entrance - lots of incoming pollen.
> 
> View attachment 46549


Russ,

This is exciting. I can't wait to see how this turns out.

Are you still planning on getting the queen to lay up some eggs, and then use the removed eggs to make queens?


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## Gray Goose

"In addition, I plan to experiment with nadiring a box of foundationless frames to the very bottom of both hives during the checkerboard manipulation to attempt a systematic comb renewal approach- we'll see what happens."
"My plan at present will be to checkerboard both hives mid next week when the anticipated high is above 70."

Checker Boarding As I understand it is for honey frames not brood frames. I am a supporter of brood nest integrity. I would never in the spring place empty's between brood frames. First cool night could chill brood. If you think they need room as all frames are covered with bees then Nadir or super is fine, during the 70 degree day. Think about the trees the bees evolved in, not much checker boarding, or box swapping going on in bee trees. Now with 2 deeps of bees and it is late June here in Michigan yes an empty frame or 2 is not an issue. You got them thru the winter, Proceed with caution.

I do tend to nadir as bees in trees attach at the top and build down until the cavity is full, then swarm as needed. This also leaves pollen/bee bread under the honey in the "top" of the hive where the bees end up in the spring. Consider as a starting point, pull frames from from the side of the brood nest, until the first brood frame, leave any with brood and place the foundation-less on the side in spot 1 or 1 and 2. wait 2 weeks do the other side. This would delay swarming and get comb drawn, and "slightly" open the brood nest. Let them decide to expand the brood nest. the thought of Checker boarding the brood nest, in March is giving Goose Bumps 

GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Russ you are on the correct track, add a column for surviving the first winter. Good luck with the catch this spring. I hope to get about 10 traps out once the snow melts.


Best of luck to you this spring as well, Gray Goose. It will be here before we know it.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Why are you blocking the tree? I would think placing a trap somewhere nearby would be a good Idea. I do not understand trying to trap the bees into a Hive. How will you convince the queen to come out?
> GG





clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> This is exciting. I can't wait to see how this turns out.
> 
> Are you still planning on getting the queen to lay up some eggs, and then use the removed eggs to make queens?


Gray Goose:

My apologies for the confusion- the photos I have posted have been less than clear thus far. I've attached a few more taken in better light that might help... 

I am attempting to utilize an approach something akin to Mr. Cleo Hogan's 'Bee Trap' (outlined in the attached PDF). I have utilized an old trampoline mat to surround the bee tree and then inserted an 1-1/2" tub drain pipe into the mat placed in the same location as their original entrance opening. I then made a shim/upper entrance which receives the tub drain and attached the shim to the top of a standard double medium hive set-up. The idea is that during Spring expansion, the colony will move into the hive set-up as an 'annex' to their current abode. Once this is accomplished, pollen and nectar will be stored and brood will be reared in the 'annex'. When fully-supplied, the idea is that I can inspect the hive set-up, assure that I have eggs of a suitable age inside, and I can take the entire hive away and leave the resultant bees to either raise an emergency queen or I can provide one. 

In theory, the 'tree bees' will not be unduly harmed and I will be able to take advantage of the colony's genetics.

CLong:

My thanks to you for reminding me of this idea- as of now the thought (should it work) would be to bring the hive set-up home and let them raise a 'pauper queen' as a means to introduce some of their genetic profile into my apiary.

The biggest mistake I have made thus far is that I installed the new entrance and the hive set-up all in one step. I see now the wisdom in setting the new opening, letting them get used to this, and then introducing the hive set-up. At present, they are treating it as a trap-out and are looking for alternate exits. If I cannot successfully make the trampoline mat bee-tight in the next few days, I will plan on pulling the hive body loose for later installation.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> You got them thru the winter, Proceed with caution.
> 
> Let them decide to expand the brood nest. the thought of Checker boarding the brood nest, in March is giving Goose Bumps
> 
> GG


Gray Goose:

Great advice, and I wholly support your admonition. 

When I use the term 'checkerboarding' I am using it in the strictest sense as I understood Mr. Walt Wright would have used it, namely the alternation of empty drawn comb between capped overhead honey to promote upward expansion of the brood nest. As such, I am not contemplating any disturbance of the brood nest proper during this manipulation. 

That said, the one exception I might make to this general statement is possibly moving the brood nest of Hive #1803 down in the stack to allow the checkerboarding of honey above. At present, they are located at the very top of the stack and I expect I will find they have also moved down into the 4th box (second from the top box) in their five tall, all 8-frame medium setup. Given the population growth I can see simply by looking in the upper entrance, the fact that I have found fully-developed drones showing up on the landing board and their frenetic pollen gathering of late, I would not be at all surprised to find swarm cells in this hive tomorrow.

So to clarify, my current colonies are configured as follows (both in 5 tall all 8-frame mediums):

#1803- Colony at the very top (5th box) and very active. Proposed manipulation- Add full box of foundationless frames to the bottom of the stack. Move brood nest (1 or 2 boxes) intact to directly above the new empty box on the bottom. Checkerboard the remaining three boxes of capped honey above the broodnest.

#1804- Colony at the very bottom (1st box) and pretty quiet- pollen coming in, but probably at 1/3rd the intensity of #1803. Proposed manipulation- Add full box of foundationless frames to the bottom of the stack. Reinstall brood nest (1 box) intact to directly above the new empty box on the bottom. Checkerboard three boxes of capped honey above the broodnest and reinstall one complete box of capped honey to the top of the stack. Possibly infuse this hive with a couple of shakes of nurse bees from Hive #1803.

If anyone sees anything in my proposed approach that portends potential problems, please feel welcome to caution me- you will not hurt my feelings.

Thanks again for your great input, Gray Goose. I've appreciated your advice and questions.

Russ


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## Gray Goose

Russ thank for the clarity, sorry I am so thick headed.

Your plan sounds fine. I may look the 1803 over for Queen cells first, if you find ANY, then find the queen and do some splits, as it is very early. Good easy way is before you loosen any frames, set the box on edge (end of frame side down and up) and look at the bottom of all the frames. If they are going to swarm it should be obvious, also if any Q cells are stuck between frames you can be forewarned to cut 1 side with the sharp knife, you will have.  Fillet knife works good thin and sharp. also if you know the Q cells are on frame 4 and 6 you can handle accordingly.
Additionally any empty boxes ie no bees, from the bottoms of each stack, I would take away to make room for the box of foundation less, keep the height under control, and provide combs for Decoys or caught swarms later. I am Jealous, be 3 or 4 weeks before I can do any spring exams.

Here is one of mine from last spring, several cells. Every frame had Q cells except frame 1 and 10, some Q cells are covered with bees a gentle puff will revel the edge of the frame a bit more. Sometimes they are poking out at funny angles and you need to remove the frames in a slow thoughtful manner. No use busting the first Q cells, from your survivor , not knowing where they are..

GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Your plan sounds fine. I may look the 1803 over for Queen cells first, if you find ANY, then find the queen and do some splits, as it is very early.
> 
> No use busting the first Q cells, from your survivor , not knowing where they are..
> 
> GG


Gray Goose:

Excellent advice- honestly, while I said I wouldn't be surprised to find QC's, I wasn't prepared to go looking for them so I would have no doubt cracked any spanning frames. I'll plan on adding a paring knife to my job box and have an empty nuc set-up nearby just in case.

Thanks again for the input- I really do appreciate it!

p.s. What are you referring to when you mention a 'decoy'?

Russ


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## Litsinger

Today's unseasonably warm weather high of almost 75 degrees and prediction for another warm day tomorrow impelled me to take the plunge and 'checkerboard' both overwintered hives. 

I will follow with a report concerning each, but I thought I would start with a description of the checkerboarding process for those not familiar- in truth I was not personally familiar with it myself on a practical level until today.

In short, the idea is to 'perforate' the overhead honey stores to prevent the colony from successfully backfilling the same until after 'reproductive cut-off' has been past- the date when a hive theoretically will no longer cast a reproductive swarm.

Setting out to follow Squarepeg's model, I prepared three boxes full of drawn empty comb, organizing them by putting the best and most-complete frames in the first box, the middle-of-the-road frames in the second box, and the worst in the third box. My logic for doing so is that I wanted to easily be able to install the best frames closest to the brood nest and put the worst at the top of the stack where they might stand a better chance of receiving early season improvement.

I then took these boxes to the apiary and proceeded to pull off the honey storage boxes (in my case three 8 frame mediums).

I then put the lid back on the now 'super-less' brood chambers and began taking every other frame out of the honey supers, replacing them with an empty drawn frame from the corresponding box (i.e. 1, 2 or 3).

In my case, I left the Southmost frame intact (#1) and moved Northward, leaving #2, #4, #6 and #8 empty. 

I then continued this process for all three supers and then reinstalled them in their same pre-checkerboarded position.

While manipulating, I replaced the bottom board and installed a new empty foundationless frame box to the bottom of the stack.


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## Litsinger

Hive #1803 has remained clustered at the top (5th box) of an all 8-frame medium stack all winter. Based on recent pollen gathering activity and the burgeoning bee population that could be seen through the upper entrance, I have been eager to get them checkerboarded in particular.

Based on good advice from Gray Goose, I took the opportunity to look under the 5th box before I lifted it off the stack to check for queen cells- thankfully there were none.

The 5th box had six seams of bees and the 4th box had four seams of bees, offset a couple frames from center to the South.

Due to the fact that we were experiencing 35 MPH wind gusts at the time of the manipulation, I elected not to pull out frames within the broodnest to inspect.

After installing the new bottom board and empty box of foundationless frames on the bottom, I moved the pre-manipulation 4th and 5th boxes down to positions 2 and 3, maintaining their previous functional relationship.

I then checkerboarded pre-manipulation boxes 1, 2 and 3 and installed them above the top of the broodnest (now in box 3).

Their old bottom board was fairly clean, with a couple dozen dead bees mixed in with an approximately equal quantity of devitalized larvae.


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## Litsinger

Hive #1804 has remained clustered near the bottom of a five-high all 8-frame medium stack all winter. Based on their recent pollen gathering activity (or lack thereof), I have been eager to check their status in particular.

Digging down the stack, I found they had moved up into the top of the 2nd box and had consumed approximately half of their stores in the 1st box, all in the front (East) side of the hive almost all the way across the width of the box- the back (West) side of the box (direction of prevailing storms) remained virtually untouched.

There were four little seams of bees that spanned approximately a third of the length of the box, offset a couple frames from center to the South. Seeing this, I decided it was worth the risk to dig into the broodnest for an inspection.

They were working on four 3-4" diameter patches of brood, with a good mix of fresh eggs, developing pupae and capped cells. I saw several newly-emerged nurse bees at work and made a point to locate the queen.

Once found, I relocated the brood box directly above the newly installed bottom board and empty box of foundationless frames.

I then checkerboarded pre-manipulation boxes 3, 4, and 5 and installed them above the top of the broodnest (still in box 2).

Finally, I moved pre-manipulation box 1 to the very top of the stack (box 6).

This hive showed evidence of some mite (frass) and wax moth (comb) damage, but nothing to the degree (relative to mites) observed in the early winter collapses. This is the colony that exhibited evidence of mites very soon after hiving last Spring.

Their bottom board was clean as a whistle.


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## squarepeg

good reporting there russ, thanks for taking the time to update.

i agree with the manipulations you performed and i would have done similar if presented with the same situation.

hive #1804 is what i refer to as a 'microcluster'. i am amazed at colonies that are able to get that small and yet continue to stay viable. given enough time i believe they would bounce back and make it to wintering strength, although not likely to swarm or produce surplus honey.

i would consider giving #1804 a frame's shake of nurse bees about once a week from #1803, (making sure you know where #1803's queen is). this will help #1804 gain a little traction and relieve a little swarm pressure off #1803.

the way i do that is butt an unused bottom board up against the bottom board of the receiving hive and shake the nurse bees onto it. the older bees will return to the donor hive while the younger bees will slowly make their way in.

you can continue until you are satisfied with the relative strengths of the two colonies.


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> hive #1804 is what i refer to as a 'microcluster'. i am amazed at colonies that are able to get that small and yet continue to stay viable. given enough time i believe they would bounce back and make it to wintering strength, although not likely to swarm or produce surplus honey.
> 
> i would consider giving #1804 a frame's shake of nurse bees about once a week from #1803, (making sure you know where #1803's queen is). this will help #1804 gain a little traction and relieve a little swarm pressure off #1803.


Squarepeg:

Thank you for your reply and the great advice. I am going to deliberate on what I want to do with #1804 insofar as I might want to experiment with how they will do on their own without outside help numbers-wise, though it is plain to me that your experienced observation is absolutely correct.

This is one of those situations where my desire to promote genetic diversity and colony self-sufficiency runs contrary to my goal of producing surplus honey- and I am still trying to figure out where my acceptable investment versus return point lands. For now, I am content with live bees, with our without excess honey.

This colony also served as a practical reminder to me that TF beekeeping has to be easier in our relatively mild climate relative to those significantly North of us. If one assumes that the cluster size is smaller at least in part due to varroa pressure, it seems logical that while a small cluster like this can make it through our mild winters, it would not be successful in 2-3 Climate Zones to the North.

Thank you again for the great advice- I may elect to follow the approach you suggest, or I might just observe what happens throughout the season to see if they can in-fact get successfully closed-out this season.

Again, thank you for all the help and input you've provided along the way- I am grateful.

Russ


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## clong

squarepeg said:


> the way i do that is butt an unused bottom board up against the bottom board of the receiving hive and shake the nurse bees onto it. the older bees will return to the donor hive while the younger bees will slowly make their way in.


This is a great tip - thanks!


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## squarepeg

understood russ, and i can see the merits proceeding either way..

if i were faced with similar, i would choose to boost the microcluster with the hope i could get it to splitting strength. my goal would be to get my hive count up to about 10 (my opinion of the minimum number needed to have decent depth) ready for winter by the end of the season.

i think you and i may be a little late (about a month) to reap the full fruits of the checkerboarding manipulation. a couple of my colonies at first inspection were found to have already moved the broodnest down to the deep and have established a solid honey dome overhead. whether or not we will see upward expansion of the broodnest into the checkerboarded supers will depend on how strong the nectar flows become going forward.


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## gww

russ
I had a hive last year that was small and building slow. I gave it a frame of brood from one of my other hives and before the flow was over, it had almost caught up with all the bigger hives. It did not seem to set the hive I took the frame from back too far. 

The only hive I have ever had die was one of those small hives that never got bigger all summer. Now I pretty much let each hive do what it is going to do with moving around resources between them. The hive that died had other problems like continual robbing pressure (I think). It could never turn the corner to get to critical mass. Since my view has been let each stand on their own and I have gotten good results and learned how small will still make it through winter, it was eye opening to me what a frame of bees added would do.

There does seem to be that point where getting over, the too small, allows the bees to show their true potential. These are my only experiences so far but were eye opening. Just thought I would throw that out there.

Cheers
gww

Ps The hive I let die was in a warre and so not easy to add a frame of bees to. I could have shaken a frame of nurse bees into it but could not inspect well enough to know if it for sure had a queen and so just let it go to see what I could learn from it. I never combine the small ones in fall if I think a bigger one will make it through winter with out it. I have been surprised at how small a hive can make it but in the spring from here on out, I think giving a boost early is going to be a gain and can be a tool to weaken a big hive and stave off swarm impulse till you are ready to do what you want with the hive. So it can be a win win type of situation.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Hive #1804 has remained clustered near the bottom of a five-high all 8-frame medium stack all winter. Based on their recent pollen gathering activity (or lack thereof), I have been eager to check their status in particular.
> 
> Digging down the stack, I found they had moved up into the top of the 2nd box and had consumed approximately half of their stores in the 1st box, all in the front (East) side of the hive almost all the way across the width of the box- the back (West) side of the box (direction of prevailing storms) remained virtually untouched.
> 
> There were four little seams of bees that spanned approximately a third of the length of the box, offset a couple frames from center to the South. Seeing this, I decided it was worth the risk to dig into the broodnest for an inspection.
> 
> They were working on four 3-4" diameter patches of brood, with a good mix of fresh eggs, developing pupae and capped cells. I saw several newly-emerged nurse bees at work and made a point to locate the queen.
> 
> Once found, I relocated the brood box directly above the newly installed bottom board and empty box of foundationless frames.
> 
> I then checkerboarded pre-manipulation boxes 3, 4, and 5 and installed them above the top of the broodnest (still in box 2).
> 
> Finally, I moved pre-manipulation box 1 to the very top of the stack (box 6).
> 
> This hive showed evidence of some mite (frass) and wax moth (comb) damage, but nothing to the degree (relative to mites) observed in the early winter collapses. This is the colony that exhibited evidence of mites very soon after hiving last Spring.
> 
> Their bottom board was clean as a whistle.
> 
> View attachment 46645
> View attachment 46647
> View attachment 46651
> View attachment 46649


Russ great detail thanks for the reporting. I am hesitant to offer my 2cents but have decided to anyway, you seem open to comment . What I see here with 1804 is a death spiral.
Dude that cluster does not even reach the bottom of a medium frame. IMO something is not quite right. Robbing, Mite vectored Virus, not sure. I would tend to agree with Squarepeg that a little dose of bees every week is a good prescription. If I had that in a spring inspection, I would have put them in a 5 frame medium NUC box, maybe 5 over 5 and added some stores, with a 1 inch opening. that cluster cannot defend or patrol 6 boxes of combs/frames. Any other strong colony finds them, they will steel them blind. What you did with boxes 1, 3 ,4,and 5 was your "initial plan" and an admirable one I will add with well defined goals. But what you find when you lift the lid, trumps well made plans, every time. Bee inspection days have a reactionary component in them as well. Like if 1803 had Q cells you would do things different. If you do not have a 5 frame NUC , I recommend busting that hive down to 1- 8 frame box, the current cluster in the exact same order flanked with the best frames of stores that are left. reduce the entrance to 1 inch or so. When you hit 5 full frames of bees consider adding 1 more box of comb, IMO on the bottom. then you can go back to you above plan when the hive hits 10-12 frame of bees. I see this as survival mode time, not 6 boxes checker board time. Its your hive do as you feel. The math of the current situation is all the brood they have will be hatched in 3 weeks, with die off, the cluster may add 50% 3 more weeks Another 50%, as is, left alone you will be lucky to have 4 full frames of bees in 6 weeks. 1 frame of bees shook in the manner Squarepeg suggests is 15-20 % add in 1 day. I would want to get to 4 boxes of bees before winter the faster the better. Perhaps my impatience is shinning thru. 
Thanks again for the wonderful inspection results, and taking time to post. 
GG


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## clong

Gray Goose said:


> What I see here with 1804 is a death spiral.
> Dude that cluster does not even reach the bottom of a medium frame. IMO something is not quite right. Robbing, Mite vectored Virus, not sure. I would tend to agree with Squarepeg that a little dose of bees every week is a good prescription. If I had that in a spring inspection, I would have put them in a 5 frame medium NUC box, maybe 5 over 5 and added some stores, with a 1 inch opening. that cluster cannot defend or patrol 6 boxes of combs/frames. Any other strong colony finds them, they will steel them blind. What you did with boxes 1, 3 ,4,and 5 was your "initial plan" and an admirable one I will add with well defined goals. But what you find when you lift the lid, trumps well made plans, every time. Bee inspection days have a reactionary component in them as well.


I want to add my "dittoes" to this advice. The way up is down. Shrink the hive and then build back up.

I had a similar dink hive, and stuck to my checkerboarding plans. I only added one extra box - but it was too much space. I gambled on the warming weather and insulated boxes to preserve a small cluster. They succumbed.

This thread along with a few others has been the best bee instruction I've ever had. Thank you for putting all the time into posting. The photos are especially helpful.

May your swarm boxes be filled and your supers overflowing.


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> if i were faced with similar, i would choose to boost the microcluster with the hope i could get it to splitting strength. my goal would be to get my hive count up to about 10 (my opinion of the minimum number needed to have decent depth) ready for winter by the end of the season.





gww said:


> The only hive I have ever had die was one of those small hives that never got bigger all summer. Now I pretty much let each hive do what it is going to do with moving around resources between them. The hive that died had other problems like continual robbing pressure (I think). It could never turn the corner to get to critical mass. Since my view has been let each stand on their own and I have gotten good results and learned how small will still make it through winter, it was eye opening to me what a frame of bees added would do.





Gray Goose said:


> But what you find when you lift the lid, trumps well made plans, every time. Bee inspection days have a reactionary component in them as well.





clong said:


> I want to add my "dittoes" to this advice. The way up is down. Shrink the hive and then build back up.


Gentlemen:

I sincerely appreciate your helpful feedback and thoughtful advice- I am listening.

I’ll start by saying that Gray Goose’s reminder of reactionary manipulations is very astute- and it is one area (among many) that I am weak in. I imagine this is something you only get good at through practice. 

One cliché that has stuck with me is that it is better to do nothing if you are not sure, so maybe I should have just closed this one back up after the initial observation and asked for help _then_ instead of _now_.

That said, I can easily condense them down, add shaken bees and/or brood frames... or all of the above.

Given my stated goals (faulty as they may be), what would you recommend I do? 

Specifically, my immediate goal for 2019 is to end the year with at least six colonies (or more) in good shape to overwinter.

I have fifteen swarm traps set-out in hopes of boosting colony numbers primarily though the hiving of early prime swarms.

My long-range goal is to establish a sustainable treatment-free apiary with as much local genetic diversity as possible, requiring as little external management support (i.e. supplemental feeding and external parasite and pest management intervention) as possible.

With those stated goals, I would be inclined at this point to do the following with #1804:

Condense them down into an appropriately provisioned 5 X 5 nuc or double 8 frame medium set-up and simply monitor their progress, assisting only when it becomes apparent that they will not make it on their own to close out the year.

This may be short-sided on my part, but I thought I would at least outline my thought process to invite you to poke holes in it.

As far as forage and weather are concerned- the maples are in full bloom here right now and the other fruit trees are not far behind. The forecast lows are near freezing for the next week and are generally on the upswing.

Thanks again for the help and input. I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> May your swarm boxes be filled and your supers overflowing.


Now this may be the best beekeeper benediction I have ever heard! I do sincerely hope that your year exceeds your best expectations too.


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## squarepeg

i wouldn't have a problem with just condensing down to two or three 8 frame mediums for now assuming you go ahead with shaking in some nurse bees, (and perhaps remove the foundationless bottom super until you see new wax making), but then i have been allowing my colonies to reside in greater volume per colony size than what most folks recommend.


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## gww

I put every thing I own, no matter the size, in ten frame mediums. Lots of times I do this with small swarms and no comb. Then they do what they do. Sometimes I give them the low side of a gal of sugar water (mixed thick) when I first hive them. However, if I have a small hive that came through winter, I am going to give them a few bees and like I said, this helps me slow down swarming on a stronger hive. 

So, I liked squarepegs first advice which was (how I took it) to give a few bees and the hive may get strong enough to split. To me (and I am not smart) it seems you are probably not going to get honey from them but might still get some bees and get closer to the six hives you want to go into winter with. If you have drawn comb that allows the queen to lay based on bee density, You will be way ahead of me and your bees can make lots of new bees really quickly.

I do not always do as I say cause lots of times I think about it and then one day wake up and just do something right or wrong. If I was a planner though, I think the above is fair and kinda fits your stated needs.
Good luck and keep us informed regardless.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> i wouldn't have a problem with just condensing down to two or three 8 frame mediums for now assuming you go ahead with shaking in some nurse bees, (and perhaps remove the foundationless bottom super until you see new wax making), but then i have been allowing my colonies to reside in greater volume per colony size than what most folks recommend.





gww said:


> So, I liked squarepegs first advice which was (how I took it) to give a few bees and the hive may get strong enough to split. To me (and I am not smart) it seems you are probably not going to get honey from them but might still get some bees and get closer to the six hives you want to go into winter with. If you have drawn comb that allows the queen to lay based on bee density, You will be way ahead of me and your bees can make lots of new bees really quickly.


Squarepeg and GWW:

Thank you both for your replies. I sincerely appreciate your advice. Given that we are headed toward a few days of no flying weather and it will be a little while before I can devote the time to manipulate, I might start by installing a robbing screen. They might still succumb to freezing temperatures over the next week, but at least I can eliminate any 'stealth' robbing pressure.

Thank you both again for your input. I am grateful.

Russ


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## Litsinger

... meanwhile at the 'bee tree':

I removed the hive set-up once I realized they were hesitant to relocate their entrance but left the connecting tube in place (Photo 1).

They then began exiting the hive through the tube but still persisted on coming back to the center of the hole in the tree.

This got me thinking, 'I wonder if the trapoline mat is acting kind of like a robbing screen'?

So, I pulled the connecting tube out, and the foragers seemed much more content to return to this opening (Photo 2).

Lessons learned thus far:

1. One might need to utilize something solid (i.e. plastic sheeting) as the tree wrap (instead of something woven) to mitigate the smell of the hive emanating from anywhere besides where you want the bees to enter.

2. It is with good reason that Mr. Hogan recommends installing the new opening and letting them get used to it first before installing the hive set-up. In fact, it might do well to:

Step 1- Wrap the hive and let the bees get used to the new opening.

Step 2- Then, install the connector tube and let them get used to it. 

Step 3- Finally, install the hive set-up.

For now, I am going to let them utilize the trampoline mat opening. Assuming they begin using this exclusively, I will plan on taping on a piece of plastic sheeting over the tree opening, leaving the new entrance clear and then incorporate the connecting tube, followed by the hive set-up in turn.


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## Gray Goose

Hi Russ for the little cluster in 1803 here is what I based my comments on. to go from big to small, less space to guard and keep warm and invader free is less for the bees to do. making sure they have a frame of honey and pollen if possible. Less bees needed to forage. remove the Foundation less frames less comb to build. I want every bee possible to raise brood, raise brood and raise brood. Once you get to 4 or 5 frames of bees then that is a NUC basically. Hopefully you are out of the woods then. I like the shake in front of the hive way to add nurse bees that was mentioned because any frame of brood with a 6 inch circle of brood or bigger the bees cannot cover, and it would need to be in the same area of the frame as the existing cluster. the shake would add bees to grow the entire cluster not just 1 frame of it, and you would not need to open it and maybe get robbing started.

good luck hope they recover
GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ... here is what I based my comments on.


Gray Goose:

Again, thank you for the sound advice and for taking the time to walk me through your logic- makes perfect sense to me.

As I mentioned in my reply to SP and GWW, I'll get a robbing screen installed and then look for a good day to condense them down.

Thanks again for your help and have a great evening. 

Russ


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## mischief

Hi big L,
My poor hive had only 2 inches of sad looking brood on each side of one seam in spring. I felt I had to treat to keep them alive and now they have bounced back to what they were this time last year. I guess most people would have just tossed them, but I felt they deserved to get a chance. One day, I hope to be completely TF, but for now, I just want live bees and hope I can get things right for them to be able to be that way.

I am grateful that you post so open and honestly about what is going on and that others give you advice that I can take on board too.


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## Litsinger

mischief said:


> I am grateful that you post so open and honestly about what is going on and that others give you advice that I can take on board too.


Mischief:

Thank you for posting your experience with your previously small cluster- that is helpful and encouraging, and I am always glad when you comment.

I am glad you appreciate the honesty. When I started this thread, I did so with the hope that others could learn from both my successes and failures, and I figure that I have nothing to lose but ignorance- especially when there are so many experienced and successful beekeepers on this forum who are so generous with their time and knowledge!

I like the nickname by the way- I'm tempted to change my handle to 'Big L" 

It sounds like your season is wrapping-up successfully? Did you learn anything new this year?


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## Litsinger

I took the opportunity to conduct 48 hour mite drop counts on both hives given I had installed new bottom boards on Wednesday:

#1803- 23

#1804- 0

I haven't been able to derive any meaningful evaluations from these counts yet, but I hope that by accumulating these data throughout the season and year-over-year one might be able to see trends emerge that can help inform management decisions.


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## Litsinger

About 60 degrees F, sunny and little wind here this afternoon and no activity to speak of at #1804... so I decided to take decisive action. I quickly pulled four supers and found the nest spanning 4 frames dead-center of the 2nd box and a few bees pulling down stores from the East side of the box above. I removed all the empty drawn comb in box 3, replaced it with capped stores, put it back on top of box 2 and buttoned it back up, leaving off the upper entrance as well. I elected to leave the empty on the bottom of the stack as I figure it does no harm until pest pressure resumes in earnest. Fingers crossed- we'll see what happens. I will say they showed quite a lot of pluck while I was trying to quietly get them condensed down.


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## Litsinger

...So I received an interesting proposition this evening that I would welcome your collective opinions on. Specifically a TF colleague in my immediate vicinity needs to get out of beekeeping and has offered me his overwintered TF hives. He is standardized on Warre equipment and foundationless frames.

We've not talked terms yet, but I am wondering:

Should I be cautious about bringing these colonies into my apiary?

What would be a fair value of an overwintered colony and corresponding woodenware in good condition, recognizing they are on a different platform than I have standardized around?

Thank you all for your input and advice. I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


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## gww

Russ
I am not afraid to bring whatever I get into my apiary. The only hive I had die was in a warre and I may have saved it but it was too much work mixing and matching other equipment to make it work and I had other bees that were easier to mess with. I may put more bees in the warre some day but will probably not try and manage them and it will be a more "let them go as long as they do taking what they give" type of thing. 

I am such a cheap guy that the bees would not have much value to me if I had bees already. If my goal was to only have six hives and I was starting with two live hives and thought I might catch a swarm or two, I would have a hard time giving much money for more unless I was willing to have ten or twelve hives.

So it would have to be a pretty good deal in my mind if it had any value at all.

I love the ideal of warre bee keeping but if I were to do it, I would want several hives and would just take from them but not really try and make queens and splits and such. Many warres are set up with movable frames and not just top bars like mine were. They can be managed just like a lang and a lang can be managed just like a warre. I went all medium lang so I did not have to mess with anything being different. Don't get me wrong, it is not that hard to get by mixing stuff up and can all be done but is a little harder and for me being the lazy type, why bother. This may not be good advice to you cause you may have different views.

My view is that there are people who buy bees and people who sell bees. Once I have actual bees in my possession, I never again want to be a person who buys bees. This would be especially true if my goal was only six hives and I had caught two swarms the year before.

I am not saying there is not a price I might give but it would not be the true value that somebody with out bees might give. On the other had, I guess it depends on just how tired of bees the other guy was. I have given stuff away cause I was too lazy to sell it.

Good luck and I can't wait to hear about it regardless of how you decide to jump. I will not be judgmental of your decision cause you may have different objectives and a different value system of what is fair. Wishing you the best.

Cheers
gww


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## JWPalmer

Russ, there is always risk when you bring someone else's bees unto your apiary. First, I would check with your state's bee laws. He may not be legally able to sell you his bees without an inspection first. That would at least rule out some of the more common diseases. As far as pricing, the value of the Warre hives is meaningless to you if you do not intend to use them. So really, you are left with the value of the bees to you. Assuming that the hives are strong, I would guess around $250 per hive would be a fair market value for someone looking to buy bees. ML is selling packages in $165 range now, and we get around $225 for a strong overwintered nuc in my area.

Edit.
Glen is right though, if you already have bees, the value of those hives *to you *quickly goes to zero.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> ...So I received an interesting proposition this evening that I would welcome your collective opinions on. Specifically a TF colleague in my immediate vicinity needs to get out of beekeeping and has offered me his overwintered TF hives. He is standardized on Warre equipment and foundationless frames.
> 
> We've not talked terms yet, but I am wondering:
> 
> Should I be cautious about bringing these colonies into my apiary?
> 
> What would be a fair value of an overwintered colony and corresponding woodenware in good condition, recognizing they are on a different platform than I have standardized around?
> 
> Thank you all for your input and advice. I sincerely appreciate it!
> 
> Russ


each person has different circumstances. main 2 for you would be.
do you have funds to burn on "bee stuff"
do you have an interest in the Warre hives?

My take is if you have $$ to play with AND have an interest in Warre,,, these are built, painted (assumption) and have overwintered bees. This is a couple year head start . You could likely take shook swarms from them this year for increase if that is in your goal plan. Could even shake a swarm from each, then resell them if the Warre turns you off. Could even start a second yard if the mixing is a concern. I would also try to worm out of him why he is selling out, "these bees are to Mean" may also be a decision helper. TF bees do not just fall into your lap every day. Do let us know how it works out.
GG
I would think an unbiased inspection and maybe a Alcohol wash on 1/2 the hives would be advised to make sure you are getting what you think he is offering.

As far as fair value, I somewhat agree that the bees are not the value holder if you can catch swarms. I would offer no more than what the wooden ware would bring empty off bees. If they die or you change your mind you can clean up and sell the boxes and be somewhat break even.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> If my goal was to only have six hives and I was starting with two live hives and thought I might catch a swarm or two, I would have a hard time giving much money for more unless I was willing to have ten or twelve hives.
> 
> My view is that there are people who buy bees and people who sell bees. Once I have actual bees in my possession, I never again want to be a person who buys bees. This would be especially true if my goal was only six hives and I had caught two swarms the year before.


GWW:

Great advice as always- I appreciate you helping me to consider this possibility in light of my stated objectives. I also see the wisdom in not buying bees if I can help it. The fact that they are on a Warre platform underscores the reality that the woodenware itself would be much more valuable to someone who is standardized on this management set-up.



JWPalmer said:


> Russ, there is always risk when you bring someone else's bees unto your apiary. First, I would check with your state's bee laws. He may not be legally able to sell you his bees without an inspection first. That would at least rule out some of the more common diseases. As far as pricing, the value of the Warre hives is meaningless to you if you do not intend to use them.
> 
> Edit.
> Glen is right though, if you already have bees, the value of those hives *to you *quickly goes to zero.


JW:

I appreciate your helpful input too- thankfully Kentucky has very little regulation in the way of intrastate colony moving/transactions, but your point about disease is sound. I also value your point about the relative value of these colonies/woodenware to me. On the one hand, I want to follow the golden rule in dealing with my neighbor, and on the other hand I need to consider what the value of this proposition is in light of my objectives.

I am grateful to you both for your helpful input. Have a great day.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I would think an unbiased inspection and maybe a Alcohol wash on 1/2 the hives would be advised to make sure you are getting what you think he is offering.
> 
> As far as fair value, I somewhat agree that the bees are not the value holder if you can catch swarms. I would offer no more than what the wooden ware would bring empty off bees. If they die or you change your mind you can clean up and sell the boxes and be somewhat break even.


Gray Goose:

Great advice- I really appreciate your thoughts. Having no first-hand experience with Warre set-ups, I don't have an informed opinion of them good or bad. Two things you mentioned build on what GWW and JW mentioned that seem to flesh-out a reasonable approach in my mind:

1. The colonies themselves are certainly valuable (assuming they are healthy) but have no monetary value. They are equivalent to a hived swarm (at least from a market prospective) and in this approach I can honor GWW's sound advice not to buy bees.

2. The woodenware itself would be worth whatever I could resell it for empty of bees to someone interested in Warre beekeeping. I would likely want to discount it a bit in my situation as it would be less valuable to me given that it is non-standard to my situation and would be bought with the assumption of resale.

As to why he is selling out, I did not pry but understand it is unrelated to the colonies themselves.

I do appreciate the input, and I'll keep you all posted as to what materializes.

Have a great day.

Russ


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## gww

Russ


> 1. The colonies themselves are certainly valuable (assuming they are healthy) but have no monetary value. They are equivalent to a hived swarm (at least from a market prospective) and in this approach I can honor GWW's sound advice not to buy bees.


The hives may be a bit better then a swarm if they are healthy and full. Like gray goose said, you might be able to shake a swarm off of them. Plus, they are a bird in hand and not in the bush. Still, for your goals of six hives, this may have little meaning. If you wanted to just do a turn around sell like you mentioned and wanted to do the work, there would be opportunity here. I am not sure that at my skill level, I would want to take the splitting and then selling on, but I believe it is do-able.

I only mention this (which you already acknowledged) in the case you just wanted to do it for the experience it might bring with a possibility of not having a lot invested depending on price given. You might even make a little. Everything depends on your goals.

On a good warm spring, I had two hive force me into six hives due to swarm impulse but the next year, I got two hives to stay as two hives. Part of it was the year and part was my management. Only wanting six hive and starting with two and swarm possibilities, does not put you too far off of your goals if you do nothing. If you get bored cause you can't get in you hives but every so often, playing with these other hives and maybe coming out even or better may fit your needs. If you are like me and can not sell (I hate trying to sell stuff) and really only want 6 hives, stay away or you will be like me and just gather stuff that you never do anything with. Someday, I will have to have stuff die or sell it cause I keep getting more when not trying that hard. Just stuff to think about. Each person is built different.
Good luck
gww


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I took the opportunity to conduct 48 hour mite drop counts on both hives given I had installed new bottom boards on Wednesday:
> 
> #1803- 23
> 
> #1804- 0


Just for giggles (and because it is such a nice day here), I took the opportunity to quickly count mites again, 48 hours from the last count, as follows:

#1803- 2 (of which 1 was devitalized)

#1804- 0

Just speculation, but wondering if the previous results on #1803 reflect the impact of the manipulation itself on the count?

While I've not witnessed it myself, I've read that some phoretic mites will 'release' when a hive is disturbed?

Regardless, it was interesting to me that the results were so different on the hive over two successive 48-hour periods.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> About 60 degrees F, sunny and little wind here this afternoon and no activity to speak of at #1804... so I decided to take decisive action.


Just wanted to thank you all again for the helpful advice with #1804. What a difference a day makes... as I watched a respectable amount of incoming pollen coming in today I could almost hear the bees saying, 'Thank You' for getting them down to a manageable hive volume.

While I may be misinterpreting the results, today is very similar to yesterday in terms of weather and yet much more entrance activity is observed. It makes me wonder if would-be foragers were prevented from leaving the nest for sake of maintaining core nest temperature due to the expansive volume?


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Someday, I will have to have stuff die or sell it cause I keep getting more when not trying that hard. Just stuff to think about. Each person is built different.


GWW:

Thank you for the admonition- I appreciate hearing about your experiences and hope I am able to do half as well as you have done thus far- looks like you are 10 for 10 this winter?

My colleagues' beeyard is about 5 miles away as the crow flies. When I got there today, he had six top-bar Warre set-ups and had three colonies bringing in pollen and three dead-out. 

The three overwintered colonies are in three tall stacks.

The three dead-out colonies were in two tall stacks.

He also had another complete Warre set-up which was not in use.

The three surviving colonies in this yard are all from swarms caught in our area this past Spring.

He also has an overwintered colony in an offsite yard that is housed in standard 10-frame Langstroth equipment.

Over the course of our conversation I learned that his family is planning to move to the West coast and he made me an offer I could not refuse, so I am now the proud owner of seven Warre hives, a 10-frame Langstroth hive and four overwintered swarms.

In contemplating what to do with the Warre equipment, I had three thoughts:

1. The empty hives will make fine bait hives, so I quickly set them up. A few I put immediately adjacent to Langstroth bait hives to do a side-by-side comparison.

2. The overall width (and height for that matter) of the Warre hive body matches up favorably with an 8-frame Langstroth but it is quite a bit shorter. As such, with some adaption the hive bodies could be set-up to move colonies out of the Warre hives and over into an 8-frame Langstroth.

3. It might be prudent to simply allow these Warre hives serve as 'genetic resources' rather than trying to explicitly utilize them for production.

The other two quick observations I made when looking at the dead-outs were:

1. I was impressed how well the top box of comb in each colony was constructed/drawn-out.

2. Without any foundation or supplemental feeding, all three dead-outs appeared to draw-out one full box and about a third of a second box.


----------



## gww

russ
I had typed a bunch of stuff that I lost cause I looked at your pictures before posting. I don't feel like typing it again and it was mostly, congratulations on your purchase and I can not wait to hear about your experiences. You have six hive now. If it was me, I would put every drop of the drawn comb from the dead outs on top or bottom of the over wintered hives and let them make some honey. I would do it right this second. I might adjust if I caught another swarm or wanted to make splits but with drawn comb, the bees could really take advantage of small short flows if having a place to store them. I would make anything new build its own cause they are going to not make honey anyway. 
Just some thoughts but can't wait to hear more as you go along.
Cheers
gww

Ps My early swarms in ten frame foundationless mediums usually draw out about a box and a third. I usually give those hives 2 to 3 gal of thick sugar water fast in late sept or early oct and they usually live through winter even being that small. So far.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> If it was me, I would put every drop of the drawn comb from the dead outs on top or bottom of the over wintered hives and let them make some honey. I would do it right this second. I might adjust if I caught another swarm or wanted to make splits but with drawn comb, the bees could really take advantage of small short flows if having a place to store them. I would make anything new build its own cause they are going to not make honey anyway.


GWW: Thank you for your wise advice- your approach makes perfect sense to me, and I will plan on executing this plan ASAP.



gww said:


> Ps My early swarms in ten frame foundationless mediums usually draw out about a box and a third. I usually give those hives 2 to 3 gal of thick sugar water fast in late sept or early oct and they usually live through winter even being that small. So far.


This is a great practical observation- I know it may be strictly coincidental, but it did seem curious that the three tall stacks made it where the two tall stacks did not. My colleague did not supplementally feed, so the swarms had to sink-or-swim on their own. I personally feel that feeding new starts is acceptable, but this particular example seems to show that strong swarms can make it on their own in certain circumstances.

Thanks again for all your help, advice and encouragement.

Have a great week.

Russ


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> GWW: Thank you for your wise advice- your approach makes perfect sense to me, and I will plan on executing this plan ASAP.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a great practical observation- I know it may be strictly coincidental, but it did seem curious that the three tall stacks made it where the two tall stacks did not. My colleague did not supplementally feed, so the swarms had to sink-or-swim on their own. I personally feel that feeding new starts is acceptable, but this particular example seems to show that strong swarms can make it on their own in certain circumstances.
> 
> Thanks again for all your help, advice and encouragement.
> 
> Have a great week.
> 
> Russ


Hey Russ
congrats you made your goal of 6 for the year. You noted " it did seem curious that the three tall stacks made it where the two tall stacks did not." I would have the same observation. So think about "where" you want to place these hives and move them, they just add weight as the year moves on.
I do not know what the warre are but it locks like box level , rather than frame level activities.I would concur with gww add an empty to each of the 3 tall to make them 4 tall and let them rip. That leaves you 1 box to "study" maybe make a few more if they are something you like. Place 2 or 3 of your Bait hive 100 yards from the final resting place for the Warres. with any luck you may be able to catch a swarm or 2. 
Add the Lang into your Lang yard and do splits from the "best" wintering hive, re queen the "worst" wintering hive and enjoy your newly created work for yourself. but it is fun work. Ironically you have 3 of each so someone wanted you to have a "compare" year. Keep us informed of your progress. Who knows maybe your friend moves back in a few years and you can give his bees back with a good learning on your part. I have 10, 8, and 5 frame hives so having different is not really a issue unless you only have 1 of each.
GG


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> Just wanted to thank you all again for the helpful advice with #1804. What a difference a day makes... as I watched a respectable amount of incoming pollen coming in today I could almost hear the bees saying, 'Thank You' for getting them down to a manageable hive volume.
> 
> While I may be misinterpreting the results, today is very similar to yesterday in terms of weather and yet much more entrance activity is observed. It makes me wonder if would-be foragers were prevented from leaving the nest for sake of maintaining core nest temperature due to the expansive volume?


Russ,

I think your interpretation is correct. Like you, I've noticed that forager traffic isn't just related to outside temperature. It is also tied to the inside temperature. A colony that is able to keep its hive warm sends out far more foragers than a similar colony in a larger or less-insulated volume. My polystyrene hives always have foragers leaving earlier in the morning than the wooden hives.


----------



## Gray Goose

clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> I think your interpretation is correct. Like you, I've noticed that forager traffic isn't just related to outside temperature. It is also tied to the inside temperature. A colony that is able to keep its hive warm sends out far more foragers than a similar colony in a larger or less-insulated volume. My polystyrene hives always have foragers leaving earlier in the morning than the wooden hives.


Good observation Russ. A lot of beekeeping is Math. Think about: go stand in a Warehouse, be a long time before you need to take your coat off, Now stand in 5 foot by 5 foot closet, in a couple hours you are taking your coat off. Mathematically the heat dissipation of the smaller area allows the heat to build up "more" The bees will not leave cluster until the heat and insulation they create are not needed. Not needed for heat, I will go forage.. As well if the room is a bit warmer the cluster can expand a bit more and cover a bit more comb and comb covered is used to rear brood, IE expand faster.
Did you shake a frame of nurse bees into them yet? More bees bigger cluster more brood


----------



## mischief

Litsinger said:


> Mischief:
> 
> Thank you for posting your experience with your previously small cluster- that is helpful and encouraging, and I am always glad when you comment.
> 
> I am glad you appreciate the honesty. When I started this thread, I did so with the hope that others could learn from both my successes and failures, and I figure that I have nothing to lose but ignorance- especially when there are so many experienced and successful beekeepers on this forum who are so generous with their time and knowledge!
> 
> I like the nickname by the way- I'm tempted to change my handle to 'Big L"
> 
> It sounds like your season is wrapping-up successfully? Did you learn anything new this year?


I had to stop and think about that question. Initially, I didnt feel like I Had learnt anything worth mentioning.


I learnt that bees build up on plastic frames really fast when you finger paint slumgum thickly over them.
At first I had tried to rub it on cold, but it just wasnt working, so I popped it in a sealed container and left it in the sun on the bonnet of my car. 
It heated up beautifully and was almost painfully hot but by scooping out small amounts and working it over the frame, I got them covered in almost no time at all.
These went into the hive the next morning and when I checked 2 weeks later, they had been built out wall to wall. Compared to these, the ones I had done earlier by just rubbing cold melted down honey wax, the frames had bare patches on them.
So from now on, the thicker the better.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Hey Russ
> congrats you made your goal of 6 for the year. You noted " it did seem curious that the three tall stacks made it where the two tall stacks did not." I would have the same observation. So think about "where" you want to place these hives and move them, they just add weight as the year moves on.
> I do not know what the warre are but it locks like box level , rather than frame level activities.I would concur with gww add an empty to each of the 3 tall to make them 4 tall and let them rip. That leaves you 1 box to "study" maybe make a few more if they are something you like. Place 2 or 3 of your Bait hive 100 yards from the final resting place for the Warres. with any luck you may be able to catch a swarm or 2.
> Add the Lang into your Lang yard and do splits from the "best" wintering hive, re queen the "worst" wintering hive and enjoy your newly created work for yourself. but it is fun work. Ironically you have 3 of each so someone wanted you to have a "compare" year. Keep us informed of your progress. Who knows maybe your friend moves back in a few years and you can give his bees back with a good learning on your part. I have 10, 8, and 5 frame hives so having different is not really a issue unless you only have 1 of each.
> GG


Gray Goose:

Thank you for your kind wishes and good advice- I think your point about them being more of a 'management by box' approach seems prudent, particularly as there is brace comb in the top bar set-ups from the dead-outs that would make a mess if you tried to pull individual frames out.

I really like the idea of adding a fourth box of drawn comb to the three deep colonies as soon as possible. I plan on moving the Warre colonies tomorrow evening, and might be able to add the boxes this weekend.

I currently have five of the double-deep Warre set-ups out for swarm traps here at the home yard, and my colleague indicated that he has two more to give me when I visit with him tomorrow, making an even ten Warre set-ups- seven empty and three with live colonies.

I told my friend that I would take his bees and his stuff only on the condition that he would allow me to 'deal him back in' if he moves back. He seemed to appreciate that.

I will be interested to see how things compare, and I will certainly post anything that I see that appears relevant.

Thanks again for all the help and good advice.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> I think your interpretation is correct. Like you, I've noticed that forager traffic isn't just related to outside temperature. It is also tied to the inside temperature. A colony that is able to keep its hive warm sends out far more foragers than a similar colony in a larger or less-insulated volume. My polystyrene hives always have foragers leaving earlier in the morning than the wooden hives.





Gray Goose said:


> Good observation Russ. A lot of beekeeping is Math. Think about: go stand in a Warehouse, be a long time before you need to take your coat off, Now stand in 5 foot by 5 foot closet, in a couple hours you are taking your coat off. Mathematically the heat dissipation of the smaller area allows the heat to build up "more" The bees will not leave cluster until the heat and insulation they create are not needed. Not needed for heat, I will go forage.. As well if the room is a bit warmer the cluster can expand a bit more and cover a bit more comb and comb covered is used to rear brood, IE expand faster.
> Did you shake a frame of nurse bees into them yet? More bees bigger cluster more brood


CLong and Gray Goose:

Excellent observations- I do appreciate the 'warehouse' analogy. That makes it easy even for me to understand . It is as good as CLong’s previous analogy that has also stuck with me, _“The way up is down.”_

I have not yet shaken any nurse bees in- I suppose I am stubbornly wanting to see what they are made of this year on their own... but that may be a very naive and foolish decision on my part. I suppose I could probably be talked out of it.

Thank you both for your help and feedback. I am grateful.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

mischief said:


> I had to stop and think about that question. Initially, I didnt feel like I Had learnt anything worth mentioning.
> 
> 
> I learnt that bees build up on plastic frames really fast when you finger paint slumgum thickly over them.
> At first I had tried to rub it on cold, but it just wasnt working, so I popped it in a sealed container and left it in the sun on the bonnet of my car.
> It heated up beautifully and was almost painfully hot but by scooping out small amounts and working it over the frame, I got them covered in almost no time at all.
> These went into the hive the next morning and when I checked 2 weeks later, they had been built out wall to wall. Compared to these, the ones I had done earlier by just rubbing cold melted down honey wax, the frames had bare patches on them.
> So from now on, the thicker the better.


Mischief:

Great observation! I sincerely appreciate you sharing. Seems to add to ODFrank's assertion that bees prefer working with older comb- the more cocoons the better.

I had to look up what a car's 'bonnet' is. Here in the states we call it the 'hood'.

I do hope your season is wrapping-up successfully for you and that it has been a good year.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Here is a great pair of videos presented at last year's 'National Honey Show' by Mr. Michael L. Smith- Postdoctoral Researcher at Cornell University:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQLGlKu0EEI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90dS90NEV0Q

In the first (_How Does a Bee Detect Her Colony Size_), Michael describes his research in determining how a colony assesses its size in terms of population to subsequently make colony-level decisions by. Two items stood-out to me:

1. The colony explicitly utilizes density to determine population (while it is heretofore unknown exactly how). The practical implication of this (at least as I see it) is that colony cavity volume will have an impact on the resultant density and thus the decisions the colony makes.

2. Drone comb represents the first reproductive investment that a founder colony makes.

In the second (_Honey Bee Sociometry: Tracking Honey Bee Growth From Birth Until Death_), there were a lot of interesting observations made (particularly starting at approximately the 20:00 minute mark):

1. Pollen was always stored on the bottom of the active brood nest, regardless of the time of year.

2. Founder colonies always built drone comb in the first year (+/- 39 days / +/- 5,000 workers) but did not utilize it.

3. It was normative for established colonies to maintain 17 - 23% drone comb.

4. It was normative for colonies left to their own devices to issue both a swarm and an afterswarm. 

5. Drone population peak corresponded with afterswarm issuance.

6. It was normative for approximately 5% of drones to leave with the swarm. Those drones which remained in the mother colony following the swarm issue were unceremoniously dispatched with +/- 5 days after swarm issue.

The attached PDF outlines the actual published findings associated with this study:
View attachment Honeybee sociometry.pdf


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> 4. It was normative for colonies left to their own devices to issue both a swarm and an afterswarm.


You know, I keep reading these studies and keep scratching my head.
Reason - the research people do not even mention the origins of their research subjects and yet they make some conclusions regarding swarming (as an example).

They say:


> We set up four large observation hives, installed in each one
> a swarm of bees, and then observed the colonies as they
> grew, developed, and died.
> 
> Preparing and installing swarms and feeding colonies
> 
> On 2 July and 8 July 2012, we prepared artificial swarms
> to install in the observation hives (see Seeley and Tautz
> 2001 for methods). These swarms contained
> 11550 ± 889 bees, the size of natural swarms in Ithaca
> (Fell et al. 1977). We measured swarm size by weight
> (7700 bees in 1 kg: Mitchell 1970; Otis 1982).* Each
> swarm contained a first-year, naturally mated queen
> reared at the lab.*


Some unknown "first-year, naturally mated queen reared at the lab".
I did give it an honest try to search the PDF for the bee race clues.

Why is this important?
Because different localized races of the honey bee have *very different propensities to swarm *(IF we are discussing the swarming context - as only one example).
Of course, the crosses will produce wide ranges of phenotypes based on the inputs.

For example:
Gray Caucasians (Apis mellifera caucasica) - have very low swarming traits.
Yellow Caucasians (Apis mellifera remipes) - have very high swarming traits.
Crosses of these two will produce some unknown swarming traits - could be entire range, case by case. 
Very high variability expected.

So - until one has well-verified source of the localized bee with *well known, stable traits*, one can not really produce useful conclusions. 
If substantiated conclusions have been made - they only apply to the tested subject (for sure, not applicable to some generic honey bee).


Here is a good source describing localized bee races (needs translation):
https://beegarden.com.ua/beeraces/

Just compare and see how different races in very many ways.
If each one of these races subjected to the identical testing above, chances are - outcomes will be significantly different.


PS: oh I see - they say:


> *While we expected variation among them, we
> did not expect colonies to shift between strength and
> weakness as quickly as they did.* For example, the North
> Colony never recovered after high worker mortality in the
> first winter, and the Office Colony swarmed itself to death.
> Colony strength is surprisingly ephemeral.


So again, what did these people test anyway?
Do they even know?
All I can say - some unknown hybrids with high variability of whatever.


----------



## gww

Greg
You put a lot of credence in race of the bee. I wouldn't know. What I do know is all my hives don't act exactly the same and the thing that makes them act closest to the same is weather. In the right weather, I have really swarmy bees and in the wrong weather, they are different. 
Hive to hive, they are a variance of each other, not exactly the same and not that much different.
Cheers
gww


----------



## GregB

gww said:


> Greg
> You put a lot of credence in race of the bee. ..........
> Cheers
> gww


Yes, I do.
In the original source of the honey bees (the Old World), there are several very distinct source locations with very distinct bee races of very distinct phenotypes.
Some phenotypes are human created - the Buckfast (intentionaly) and the Russians (unintentionaly).
These are all very different bees.
If you study bees - you should study a race of bees and document which race of bees you study.
Or clarify that you understand this fact and do not care because it does not matter (and why so).
If you study hybrids, then know the sources of your hybrids.

For example, let us study coloring of tigers using some zoo specimens.
This statement is meaning-less until you qualify - which exact tiger sub-population do you study (you see - these are many and all are very different - Northern tigers are light and Southern tigers are dark, in general)?
So, you should know the actual zoo tiger sourcing (Siberian vs. Indian vs. Sumatran) and do not them cook up some strange conclusions.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So again, what did these people test anyway?
> Do they even know?
> All I can say - some unknown hybrids with high variability of whatever.


GregV:

Good points- no argument from me in general. I will offer that through the course of both videos, Mr. Smith notes several times that these results are based solely on the two year study of four observation hives and disclaims his results accordingly. 

Additionally (with point #4 aside), it is not hard for me to imagine that the remaining observations might be relatively applicable to colonies in general (especially the hive development fundamentals), regardless of genetic make-up.

Finally, I received the PDF report by contacting Mr. Smith directly- he seems to genuinely have a love for bees and beekeeping in general and would likely be glad to answer a question about what the genetic background of their test bees were. I have contacted him and will update the group as to what he says.


----------



## Litsinger

It has been a busy few days in the bee yard, and for the first time since October I feel like I am not behind… not exactly caught-up but at least not feeling like I am foregoing opportunities by having equipment laying around in the garage.

Last evening I moved the three overwintered Warre colonies (hereafter referred to as #1901, #1902 and #1903) and they seemed to handle the transport o.k. 

#1902 seems to have swarming on their mind as they appear restless and have foragers checking-out a few adjacent bait hives.

I also installed four more swarm traps and righted two traps that were knocked asunder by the EF2 tornado that came through the area last week. 

This puts my total swarm trap total at 22, though several are installed in close proximity to each other to conduct a very unscientific study of swarm trap size/configuration preference. Additionally, 15 of the 22 traps are installed along the 6 acres worth of woodlot edges on our farm so we will likely get a good sense of how many swarms are available in the flight zone about our place. I have also used every ratchet strap I own, so that means I am officially done hanging traps...









In the immediate term I hope to nadir the Warre hives (hey- they're Warre hives right?) with drawn comb from the dead-outs as suggested by GWW and Gray Goose and turn my attention to planting some trees that have been patiently awaiting attention while I have been trying desperately to get in front of the bees.

p.s. I recorded 48-hour mite drops today as it is the Vernal Equinox. My plan is to check them at least for times yearly and the change of season serves as a good reminder:

#1803- 2
#1804- 0


----------



## gww

russ
A picture of the warres I built.









I baited some of my traps also. I leave them out all year. I must be lazy this year cause all I did was put some lemon grass oil on a q-tip and flick it inside the traps. I used to take them all down, remove the tops and dump the mice or take out any wasp nest. I am sure some of them had mice in them and I too had two that had blown down in the last big winds we had. One is still down cause I did not take enough tools and it started to sprinkle.

This is another thing I am going to slow down on till I start selling some bees or they start dying. It is hard to give up on completely cause it is so neat to get a swarm. It is hard work and takes gas money though.
Good luck on your new (and old) hives and your trapping. I have a feeling that you are going to run out of equipment even with the extra will have more then six hives before winter.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> This is another thing I am going to slow down on till I start selling some bees or they start dying. It is hard to give up on completely cause it is so neat to get a swarm. It is hard work and takes gas money though.


GWW:

Thank you for your reply- your garage looks a whole lot like mine, though I am jealous of that wood burner you have .

Your Warre hive set-up looks great- have you ever tried the whole 'warm way' versus 'cold way' stuff?

One of the things I like about you is that you are very modest- it seems to me that your TF success ranks right up there with the very best and yet you always present your results in such a self-deprecating manner. In that spirit, I suggest you come up with some kind of wiz-bang logo and slogan for your bee yard and start selling $500 queens and $1,000 nucs.

This way, you can still have all the fun of trapping swarms and make some extra walking-around money at the same time! :lookout: 

In all seriousness, I really appreciate all the help and good advice you have afforded me, and hope this year is successful beyond your wildest expectations.


----------



## gww

russ
I am not a salesman. I do ok with collecting though. I just posted this cause you mentioned the wood burner. It is a point of pride to me. Back in the late 70s, they closed the plant that my dad worked in for a couple of years. He made these stoves during that time to make money. He probably made 35 of them and sold them. As you can see, he did a good job as this one is still the bomb.

I only had bees in the warre one time.








This was me dumping a swarm in it that came from one of my hives. This is the only hive in the last three years that I was able to kill though various and repeated mistakes. Now it just sits out there empty for the mice to make homes out of and maybe on some rare day, a swarm to move into.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> He made these stoves during that time to make money. He probably made 35 of them and sold them. As you can see, he did a good job as this one is still the bomb.


GWW:

This is a neat story, and just goes to show that we can leave a legacy through the work of our hands when we pursue excellence. I imagine that the stove brings back good memories too.

Somehow I figure it won't be long before I hear about a swarm moving into your empty real estate.

Thank you again for all your help. Have a great day.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

This morning, I received feedback from Mr. Michael Smith regarding the question on the genetic profile of the colonies utilized in his experiments. He also was kind enough to offer commentary on the six take-aways that I had from the video, and I have posted his results unedited below:

_With regard to the bee race, I used naturally mated queens from the Ithaca, NY area, so they're a "grab bag" of locally adapted genes. Most certainly there are things that would change given different bee strains, but also in different environments. The reason I use naturally mated queens is that I want to know how colonies in the area are growing/developing. Might throw a wrench in my gears if I ordered a pre-mated queen from California. _

1. Pollen was always stored on the bottom of the active brood nest, regardless of the time of year.

- _Was this from the paper? Because I think in the video, yes, you'll see pollen surrounding the brood nest, but I don't think I had that specifically mentioned in the paper. _

2. Founder colonies always built drone comb in the first year (+/- 39 days / +/- 5,000 workers) but did not utilize it.

_- Yup! I did a follow-up study as well (unpublished results, for now), and some colonies are capable of using that drone comb for rearing drones in the first year. But I think that just highlights the need to start the colony early in the season. _

3. It was normative for established colonies to maintain 17 - 23% drone comb.

-_ Certainly. And we beekeepers tend to allow them far less. _

4. It was normative for colonies left to their own devices to issue both a swarm and an afterswarm. 

_- Yes, and sometimes even multiple afterswarms. _

5. Drone population peak corresponded with afterswarm issuance.

_- You've got a good eye! In Fig2, yes, it does look like that. I'd probably take this with some salt, as I was only taking monthly population counts, or whenever a colony swarmed/afterswarmed. Other work has shown that drone population peaks before primary swarm departure, which makes sense, given that you need fully mature drones to mate with virgin queens. _

6. It was normative for approximately 5% of drones to leave with the swarm. Those drones which remained in the mother colony following the swarm issue were unceremoniously dispatched with +/- 5 days after swarm issue. 

_- Yes, very few drones depart with the swarm. The ones remaining in the mother colony might get dispatched with, only if food reserves are low. In other colonies, I didn't see the same culling occur, so I think this is more dependent on the colony resources. I mean, why kill off your drones if you've already reared them? They're there to mate with queens from other colonies anyways, so might as well keep them around, unless food reserves are low. _


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> 2. Founder colonies always built drone comb in the first year (+/- 39 days / +/- 5,000 workers) but did not utilize it.
> 
> _- Yup! I did a follow-up study as well (unpublished results, for now), and some colonies are capable of using that drone comb for rearing drones in the first year. But I think that just highlights the need to start the colony early in the season. _
> 
> 3. It was normative for established colonies to maintain 17 - 23% drone comb.
> 
> -_ Certainly. And we beekeepers tend to allow them far less. _
> [/I]


Russ,

More great insights. I can hardly take it in.

One thing that I've always wondered about is the teaching that drones' only purpose is for mating. No doubt, that is a big part of their role. But colonies invest a lot of resources (when available) in making drones. They have been created with the urge to propagate a certain percentage of drones. Many beekeepers try to thwart this, in the name of better production. Is this a good idea? I wonder.

It would be great to hear what Mr. Smith's theories are on why bees insist on using up so many resources on rearing drones and building drone comb that might not even get used.

Thanks again for posting all of your findings.


----------



## lharder

The use drone comb for honey after they finish raising them. Drones may also be useful in clustering during cold evenings. Could they help keep brood warm during the night allowing for a larger brood nest?


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> It would be great to hear what Mr. Smith's theories are on why bees insist on using up so many resources on rearing drones and building drone comb that might not even get used.





lharder said:


> The use drone comb for honey after they finish raising them. Drones may also be useful in clustering during cold evenings. Could they help keep brood warm during the night allowing for a larger brood nest?


CLong and LHarder:

Good questions/comments. While I haven't the experience to lean on that you both do, I've read a lot on drone purpose and it seems that hive temperature regulation is likely at least one side benefit. I have also observed how the drone comb is prime real estate for honey backfilling.

Mr. Smith's research focus is on drones specifically, so I posed the question to him and will post here any findings he is willing to share.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> ... meanwhile at the 'bee tree':


With today's high of almost 65 degrees F, sunny and little wind, I decided that it was 'sink-or-swim' day for the 'office hive' annex project.

To recap, there is a 'bee tree' here at my office that I have inventions of taking a start from based on the suggestion by CLong, employing the method described by Cleo Hogan.

Thus far, I have found that utilizing something that is vapor permeable (in my case a trampoline mat) for the tree wrap is maybe not the best idea as the foragers insist on coming back to the original hive entrance location, even after exiting the new entrance.

As a result, I pulled the hive body away from the tree and allowed the colony to get used to using the hole I had provided in the trampoline mat for the purposes of an entrance.

Today, I taped a black plastic garbage bag over the hole in the tree, reinstalled the hive body and connector tube and left them to figure it out.

What has ensued thus far has been organized chaos- the attached photos do it no justice, but in general:

1. The foragers are exiting the hive body upper entrance, orienting, flying off and then returning with various results:

A. Some go straight back to the tree, looking hopelessly for the old entrance.
B. Some go back to the upper entrance, enter the hive and then come back out, flying to the tree and alighting near the old entrance.
C. The MENSA candidates come back to the upper entrance and apparently find their way back into the nest.

2. There is significant hive activity at both the upper and lower entrances of the hive body such that I get the sense the colony has become aware of this new volume which is attached to their home (thus my referring to it as the 'annex').

Just by judging their behavior thus far in this process, there are two observations I would take away from this:

1. Even after foragers have properly oriented their home base, they seem to still use scent cues to get them back to the entrance itself.

2. Related to (1), it seems that a significant percentage of foragers retain an affinity for the previous point of entry even after orienting to a new one. Makes one wonder if this is a function of their relative time/trips foraging or some other factor?

I will keep an eye on this such that I don't unwittingly doom this colony through repeated disruption.


----------



## Litsinger

Lots of scout activity at the home yard this afternoon. Currently, the old boxes are attracting much more interest.


----------



## gww

Russ
I always look in the trees close to my hives anytime I see bees looking at my swarm traps. I have found most of the swarms from my hives cause I have a trap in my yard that I look at the entrance each morning. If I see a bee there, I look near the hives. I do have a cedar that is close to my hives that all the swarms seem to like.










I only mention this in-case you did not think of it though you may have cause you seem to be ahead of the game.
Good luck
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I always look in the trees close to my hives anytime I see bees looking at my swarm traps.


GWW:

This is great advice, and I had not thought of this- I will make a point of looking up in the trees while checking the traps- thanks for the tip, and have a great weekend!

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Currently, the old boxes are attracting much more interest.


The primed traps will be most likely take hits first.
Having a chance, prime as many traps as possible over the next summer using nucs and splits.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Having a chance, prime as many traps as possible over the next summer using nucs and splits.


GregV:

This is great idea- I did wipe them down on the inside with a propolis tincture I made up, but the bees can apparently spot a counterfeit!


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> This is great idea- I did wipe them down on the inside with a propolis tincture I made up, but the bees can apparently spot a counterfeit!


Yea, there is a difference.
Tincture only gives a smell (which is already great!) - but you can not rob it.
The real propolise is collectable though, the collectors come to harvest it consistently, and chances are strong they eventually bring over the swarm.
I got a feeling, they like fresher propolise from the last season better vs. some old, hard stuff.
Fresh prop is soft and easier to scrape and is being actively sought after.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The real propolise is collectable though, the collectors come to harvest it consistently, and chances are strong they eventually bring over the swarm.


GregV:

Good observation. It seems there is much that used hives have to offer both foragers and prospective swarms.

Thanks again for the input.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Finally had the opportunity to go through the inherited Warre colonies this afternoon. All three of them had two mainly full boxes of drawn comb (some far less than parallel) and the bottom box was either empty (#1901) or had a frame or two partially drawn (#1902 + #1903). As a result, I removed the empty boxes and installed the drawn boxes on the bottom.

No swarm cells in these hives, but lots of scout activity at the traps.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Litsinger said:


> As a result, I removed the empty boxes and installed the drawn boxes on the bottom.


Why?


----------



## Litsinger

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Why?


Bernhard:

First, thank you for commenting here on my humble thread. I have been reading through your posts over on the Warre forum and respect the knowledge and experience you have in working with this system in particular.

My logic (acknowledging it may be flawed) was that I assumed that the drawn comb would be of benefit to these colonies in the Spring build-up period and would afford them an easier time of accumulating a surplus before the end of the season as compared to an empty volume.

That said, I have downloaded the research papers you recently posted on the 'Darwinian Beekeeping' thread relative to the thermo-regulation benefit of an empty volume below and I look forward to learning more on this subject.

Having no real experience in working within the Warre system, I am genuinely curious what your recommended set-up would be in early Spring for overwintered colonies? I assume it would differ depending upon whether the cluster is small, medium or large?

Thanks again for chiming in, and I invite your advice- I have much to learn.

Russ


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Bernhard:
> 
> First, thank you for commenting here on my humble thread. I have been reading through your posts over on the Warre forum and respect the knowledge and experience you have in working with this system in particular.
> 
> My logic (acknowledging it may be flawed) was that I assumed that the drawn comb would be of benefit to these colonies in the Spring build-up period and would afford them an easier time of accumulating a surplus before the end of the season as compared to an empty volume.
> 
> That said, I have downloaded the research papers you recently posted on the 'Darwinian Beekeeping' thread relative to the thermo-regulation benefit of an empty volume below and I look forward to learning more on this subject.
> 
> Having no real experience in working within the Warre system, I am genuinely curious what your recommended set-up would be in early Spring for overwintered colonies? I assume it would differ depending upon whether the cluster is small, medium or large?
> 
> Thanks again for chiming in, and I invite your advice- I have much to learn.
> 
> Russ


Hi Russ, setting the "system " aside , the only 2 spring suggestions I would have are:

Wait untill a warmish day to do the spring inspection for me in Mich. that is 60F or warmer not much wind.
a)verify queen is present, normally seeing brood is enough.
b)do not do any very early brood nest changes.
c) verify they have stores to get them to Maple flow or what ever your first local flow is.
If needed add comb first as in early spring they are less likely to draw comb from foundation or foundationless, And for me getting comb on the bees is less I need to store and watch.
a) if they are tight I nadir as it has less effect on cooling the brood nest. Really big and packed (20 or more frames of bees) super as well.
b) my system is Lang, so almost always I can pull out the bottom box and inspect cull, harvest some comb for swarms or splits or package.
c) sweep out the bottom, check for mouse damage, dampness mold etc. general check up. If the bottom is funky I put in a different one. Pull, the funky one scrape, place in the sun for a week or 2 , repaint if you are inclined. put it back in 3 weeks on the next visit. Sun is good, 

Again locality I still have snow, a foot or so , some are grafting, and splitting already.

Have fun Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Russ, setting the "system " aside , the only 2 spring suggestions I would have are...


Good advice, Gray Goose. I sincerely appreciate your input.

Yesterday's high was around 70 degrees F, but a bit breezy. Our maples are just about played-out and we are now on the cusp of redbud bloom. My main reason for wanting to get into the Warre hives was to verify brood and assess the need to add a box of drawn comb as you and GWW wisely suggested for surplus nectar collection. With none of them reaching your suggested 20 frame threshold, I am feeling a little better about my manipulations, which were effectively the same for each hive- install a new bottom board, set atop this a box of empty drawn comb (from the dead-outs) and then set the top two boxes from each hive back in their original positions. As such, the effective result of my effort involved swapping out an empty box on the bottom of the stack for one either fully or partially filled with drawn comb. 

We still have the threat of nighttime lows near freezing for the next week-and-a-half, though our 30% probability is historically around April 10th.

Thanks again for your helpful input, and good luck with your Spring apiary efforts.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

It appears that the girls at the 'bee tree' have finally acquiesced to my repeated (and iterative) efforts to move their entrance to the hive set-up.

I will continue to monitor them periodically to make sure the 'annex' does not impose undue burden on them.


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> It would be great to hear what Mr. Smith's theories are on why bees insist on using up so many resources on rearing drones and building drone comb that might not even get used.


I heard back from Dr. Smith this morning (I noticed he completed his PhD) and he offered the following:

_"For your colleague's question while we beekeepers might look at drones and drone comb as a waste, the bees certainly don't think so! As you probably know, honey bee colonies are hermaphrodites (they can produce both male and female reproductives). A colony's investment strategy, on average, comes out to a 50/50 investment in male and female reproductives. While the numerical sex ratio might be highly skewed (a colony might make 5000 drones, but only produce 1 swarm), the underlying resources invested in those two forms of reproduction are about the same. 

Plus, if one colony only produced as many drones as were "needed" to mate with virgin queens (let's say... 20 drones?), then a nearby colony that over-invests would greatly benefit. It's sort of like buying lottery tickets, with the winning numbers called by the virgin queen (whomever she mates with, that colony has purchased a winning ticket). 

As for benefits within the colony, I know that drones will vibrate when they're cold, so there's probably some benefit to nest homeostasis, but work-wise... hmm... not that I know of. Of course, it's something that hasn't been thoroughly investigated, so who knows!"_


----------



## lharder

It depends a bit on whether there is some local resistance built up in spite of treatment. I am now beyond that 20 hive threshold, but the 20 or so hives I have that have survived for 2 plus winters, are mostly the result of undominated drone space and my longest surviving queen is local stock. Nature is continually removing lesser stock tf of not. When treating the pressures of natural selection are much less and together with importation of bees continually thwarts this process. But some progress is made none the less. And people are continually trying mite biters, or VSH stock or whatever, so those traits are probably hanging around at low frequency in local populations. So there is some building blocks to begin with. I am now at a place where my genetics will make a difference, so I hope for some more consistent results going forward. 

My bees are going to get a visit from the bee inspector this spring, and in conversation I will challenge her a bit about why she isn't talking about selecting for low mite numbers in her talks. Everyone could and should be doing this tf or not.


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> I heard back from Dr. Smith this morning (I noticed he completed his PhD) and he offered the following:
> 
> _"For your colleague's question while we beekeepers might look at drones and drone comb as a waste, the bees certainly don't think so! As you probably know, honey bee colonies are hermaphrodites (they can produce both male and female reproductives). A colony's investment strategy, on average, comes out to a 50/50 investment in male and female reproductives. While the numerical sex ratio might be highly skewed (a colony might make 5000 drones, but only produce 1 swarm), the underlying resources invested in those two forms of reproduction are about the same.
> 
> Plus, if one colony only produced as many drones as were "needed" to mate with virgin queens (let's say... 20 drones?), then a nearby colony that over-invests would greatly benefit. It's sort of like buying lottery tickets, with the winning numbers called by the virgin queen (whomever she mates with, that colony has purchased a winning ticket).
> 
> As for benefits within the colony, I know that drones will vibrate when they're cold, so there's probably some benefit to nest homeostasis, but work-wise... hmm... not that I know of. Of course, it's something that hasn't been thoroughly investigated, so who knows!"_


Russ,

Thanks for the posing the question and posting the answer. I don't know that drones' other contributions involve "work" per se. Perhaps one of their roles is to act as a pest/disease sink. I don't know. I just know they were created with a purpose, and we are still learning more about bees all the time.


----------



## Litsinger

lharder said:


> I am now at a place where my genetics will make a difference, so I hope for some more consistent results going forward.


LHarder:

Thank you for your reply. I always appreciate your contributions, and I know you have approached your TF beekeeping in a very systematic and scientific manner (which I instinctively gravitate toward). I continue to look with great interest at your progress, and I think your proactive efforts to remain engaged with the scientific community at-large are important and worthwhile. Keep up the good work- I am interested in learning from your continued efforts!


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> I just know they were created with a purpose, and we are still learning more about bees all the time.


CLong:

From my very humble perspective, I think your philosophical mindset toward drones is very sound. If we take as a given that the colony is not interested in wasted effort/resources it makes intuitive sense to me that we should allow them to have all the drones they want even if we can't necessarily define all of the 'why's'. 

That said, I acknowledge and appreciate the distinction between observing bees as a scientific pursuit and employing them in the practical vocation of commercial beekeeping. As I don't derive my livelihood from beekeeping, I have the luxury of allowing them to maintain +/- 20% drone comb even if the practical effect might mean higher background levels of varroa. 

Said more simply, I don't make any judgment calls that others 'should' maintain more drones, just that I am willing to maintain them in my hobby efforts because of my opinion that the potential benefits (i.e. genetic dispersion) outweigh the potential risks (i.e. varroa magnets).


----------



## Litsinger

This afternoon, I noticed no activity at Hive #1901 and a fair number of bees alive but grounded in front of the hive. In response, I pulled the lid and discovered they were queenless and out of food. 

There were a few spotty patches of capped drone brood in two frames, suggesting they have been queenless awhile.

Given the small number of bees, I elected to let nature take its course and buttoned the hive back up. The comb itself looks good, with no mold or musty odors so hopefully it will make an inviting swarm trap candidate.


----------



## Litsinger

My firsthand experience with trying to extend the cavity of the 'bee tree' has instilled in me a newfound respect for those folks who are consistently good at completing trap-outs- it has proven to be more difficult than I anticipated.

For one thing, the returning foragers show a strong affinity for returning to the tree itself rather than the opening in the hive set-up that they both exited and oriented away from. I have observed a fair number of pollen-laden foragers either: search until they find a breach in my sealing job; or die trying.

Others seem to make it back to the hive set-up entrance only to become disoriented once inside and never make it back into the tree itself but perish immediately inside the hive set-up.

It has been unseasonably cold here the last several days but is anticipated to be mild and dry here the next few days so I utilized the calm that the cool weather has provided to pull the inner/outer cover of the hive set-up in hopes I can get the colony to more reliably utilize the extension tube for their entrance.

Should this prove effective, I will plan on leaving it this way for a few days before installing the covers.

In retrospect, it might have been better to simply take my chances with catching a swarm from this hive but at least I am gaining some helpful first-hand experience about the process... the hard way as usual.


----------



## JWPalmer

Russ, I tried a similar trapout from a tree last year and it was a total fail. Just put a trapout cone on the tree and bait the hive. The bees should move on in once they figure out they can't get back into the tree. Patbeek has some great vids of his trapouts here on BS.


----------



## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> Russ, I tried a similar trapout from a tree last year and it was a total fail. Just put a trapout cone on the tree and bait the hive. The bees should move on in once they figure out they can't get back into the tree. Patbeek has some great vids of his trapouts here on BS.


JW:

Thank you for your reply. I sincerely appreciate it. While I am not opposed to a trap-out in general, I assume this is something that one should wait on until nighttime lows are consistently above maybe 50 degrees F?

Patbeek is one of the people I had in mind when I said that I have a new appreciation for what they are able to accomplish- he makes it look relatively easy!

Thanks again for your input. I really do appreciate it, and good luck with your efforts this Spring.


----------



## GregB

dup


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> .... I assume this is something that one should wait on until nighttime lows are consistently above maybe 50 degrees F?
> 
> Patbeek is one of the people I had in mind when.


Keep in mind the *subtropical/tropical* climate where Patbeek operates.


----------



## mischief

I just have to ask, against my better judgement....Why not just leave them alone and set out bait traps for when they swarm?


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Keep in mind the *subtropical/tropical* climate where Patbeek operates.


Good point, GregV.


----------



## Litsinger

mischief said:


> Why not just leave them alone and set out bait traps for when they swarm?


Good question, Mischief- and you are always welcome to question what I am doing as it helps me avoid the echo chamber .

In retrospect, I would probably have done exactly as you suggest- set up a couple swarm traps in the general vicinity and take my chances in catching a swarm.

My rationale for trying the 'annex' process is that in theory it allows you to take a 'start" from the tree colony without unduly impacting them- something akin to removing a couple of frames of brood from a colony with removable frames during Spring Build-Up. When it works, it allows you to take advantage of at least half the colonies' genetics and not harm them in the process.

I naively assumed they would readily acquiesce to my efforts to modify their entrance and offer them more room for expansion.

At this point, they seem to be fairly contented to utilize the entrance extender tube with the inner/outer cover off the hive set-up so hopefully we are making progress.

Should this work, the idea would be to put the lid back on, allow the colony to utilize the hive set-up during population growth this Spring and then sometime during our primary local flow (i.e. May), remove the hive set-up with stores, nurse bees and brood and bring it home for the now queenless colony to raise an emergency queen. 

That said, my scant experience in beekeeping thus far has suggested that things in practice rarely go exactly as they are described in the books- so we'll see!

Thanks again for your input. Have a great day.

Russ


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> My rationale for trying the 'annex' process is that in theory it allows you to take a 'start" from the tree colony without unduly impacting them- something akin to removing a couple of frames of brood from a colony with removable frames during Spring Build-Up. When it works, it allows you to take advantage of at least half the colonies' genetics and not harm them in the process.
> 
> I naively assumed they would readily acquiesce to my efforts to modify their entrance and offer them more room for expansion.


Joel Salatin said, "Anything that's worth doing is worth doing poorly first." A variation of a similar quote by G.K. Chesterton. I applaud your effort, and hope you can find a way to make it work. The trick is to keep on until you progress from mystery to mastery.

I have a swarm trap near my apiary which has caught a few times. In my several attempts at moving bees, (Move 2 miles, shut them in for 3+ days, block entrance with all kinds of flotsam and jetsam) nothing has worked flawlessly. There are always a couple score to a couple thousand bees that refuse to go along with the program, and return faithfully to the trap site. In my experience, bees dead-set in their ways cannot be untrained; they can only fade away.

Perhaps Mr. Hogan will have some hints on how to make this thing work.


----------



## GregB

clong said:


> In my experience, bees dead-set in their ways cannot be untrained; they can only fade away..


US Military call this "collateral damage".
I think we are to get used to some collateral damage and move on.
These are only bugs after all (in fact, rather very common, not very valuable bugs, compared to some others).


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> Joel Salatin said, "Anything that's worth doing is worth doing poorly first." A variation of a similar quote by G.K. Chesterton. I applaud your effort, and hope you can find a way to make it work. The trick is to keep on until you progress from mystery to mastery.
> 
> Perhaps Mr. Hogan will have some hints on how to make this thing work.


CLong:

GREAT reply. I knew there was something I liked about you- the Chesterton reference is a classic: _“If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly.”_

Mr. Cleo Hogan has had great success with the approach, and as I have freely admitted, I have departed from his instructions and learned the hard way why he deliberately outlines a multi-step approach, namely:

1. Secure the hive entrance and insert a short connector tube.

2. Allow the bees to utilize this new entrance for a period of time until it becomes second nature.

3. Attach the 'hive annex' and let them become familiar with the new entrance. At this point, Mr. Hogan would suggest adding a frame of open brood to the box to entice the bees to take up residence in the hive set-up.

I intend to press-on with the approach. My musing regarding not doing it in retrospect is not due to the difficulties per se but due to the amount of time that I now have invested in this effort. It has proven to be a LOT of work to get the tree secured...

Thanks again for the encouragement and heartening reminder.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> These are only bugs after all (in fact, rather very common, not very valuable bugs, compared to some others).


Good point, GregV- but they are oh so fascinating. I am certain that I am one who would be content with keeping bees just for the experience of watching colony dynamics throughout the year... that said, I am certainly hoping for a bit more than just a better grasp of social insect behavior .


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> ...
> Thanks again for the encouragement and heartening reminder.
> 
> Russ


Russ,

No problem. We all need encouragement sometimes.

I'm really just jealous of your bee tree.


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> I'm really just jealous of your bee tree.


CLong: I tell you what- if this boondoggle works, I'll let you take all the credit. If it fails, I'll take all the blame...


----------



## mischief

clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> No problem. We all need encouragement sometimes.
> 
> I'm really just jealous of your bee tree.


Same here


----------



## Litsinger

mischief said:


> Same here


Well, maybe it's a good excuse to take a holiday in the U.S. and come to the Bluegrass State!


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Good point, GregV- but they are oh so fascinating. I am certain that I am one who would be content with keeping bees just for the experience of watching colony dynamics throughout the year... that said, I am certainly hoping for a bit more than just a better grasp of social insect behavior .


Well, as you know, I am a documented bug-killer.
So far I have had hard time to explaining to people around me what is it exactly I am doing (and why no honey). 
Most all heard something about bees that are dying and need saving (and some even trying to save bees by buying packages from California - the least valuable bees to speak of).
Hahaha.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Well, as you know, I am a documented bug-killer.


Well, as a sage beekeeper in my area oft tells new beekeepers, "Now, you are gonna kill some bees..." At least your demises have been in search of better-adapted genetics and appropriate management techniques suited to your area. In my short experience I have recognized that while big-picture colony dynamics are similar no matter where you are located, successful genetic background and management approaches are certainly different depending upon your locale.

Keep up the good work- I've learned a lot reading your posts.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

This afternoon, while working in the yard I heard a palpable roar from Hive #1803. When I looked, there was quite a mass of bees clustering around the upper entrance and I assumed they were preparing to swarm. I went over to watch it unfold only to discover it was simply orientation flights- I have never seen this many bees orienting at once, particularly at this point in the season. The attached photo was taken after things had quieted down considerably. I suppose I'll take a peek inside tomorrow just to see if there are any swarm preps underway, but I suspect not. Just based on visual observation thus far, it seems that Checkerboarding has allowed this colony to build-up a considerable population prior to our main flow starting.


----------



## tpope

Good looking hive from the outside Litsinger. Big orientation flights means lots of brood raising...


----------



## Litsinger

tpope said:


> Good looking hive from the outside Litsinger. Big orientation flights means lots of brood raising...


Thank you, TPope.

I was busy on the business end of a wood chipper today, so I didn't get a chance to get in this hive as I had wanted. Hopefully I can mid this coming week to see how they are progressing.


----------



## Litsinger

(Fingers crossed) it looks like the 'bee tree' colony may have finally accepted my entrance extension. I am cautiously suggesting this based on a few observations:

1. Incoming foragers consistently making direct flight to the tube.

2. Only a few bees searching for an alternate means of entry, even during peak traffic flow.

3. Guard bees now monitoring the entrance (and observers too).

4. Bees traveling throughout the hive set-up and cleaning out stray nectar.

If this pattern continues to hold, I will plan on installing the inner and outer cover on Thursday morning before the next predicted arrival of significant precipitation.


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> (Fingers crossed) it looks like the 'bee tree' colony may have finally accepted my entrance extension. I am cautiously suggesting this based on a few observations:
> 
> ...
> 
> If this pattern continues to hold, I will plan on installing the inner and outer cover on Thursday morning before the next predicted arrival of significant precipitation.


Russ,

Great job! This is going to be fun to watch. Now we just need a webcam with a live feed! 

Just kidding, of course.


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> Great job! This is going to be fun to watch.


Thanks for the encouragement, CLong. I appreciate your advice and nudge to give this a go.


----------



## Litsinger

First mature drones observed returning to hives en masse today.


----------



## tpope

Good time for a queen to hatch...


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## Litsinger

tpope said:


> Good time for a queen to hatch...


Good point, TPope.


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## Litsinger

Things seem a bit unsettled at the 'bee tree' since the inner/outer covers went on this morning:


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## Litsinger

It is likely old-hat to many of you, but I received an e-mail update from _Scientific Beekeeping_ with a link to some of Mr. Randy Oliver's more recent articles. Two in particular caught my eye entitled, _Guessing our Future with Varroa_. In this two-part article published in the December and January editions of American Bee Journal, he made several insightful observations and a few provocative predictions that caught my attention:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/guessing-our-future-with-varroa-2/

_Direction of evolutionary pressure: switching to integrated pest management of varroa, using “natural” treatments, will certainly buy us time, but there is no question that the ultimate solution to The Varroa Problem will be a wholesale shift to running bee stocks that are innately resistant to the mite.

… we can expect this parasite to continue to evolve its behavioral and physiological responses to cues from worker brood of Apis mellifera, adapt to the higher temperature and shorter postcapping period of that worker brood, as well as to develop further resistance to miticides. We can likely expect varroa to become even more “virulent” than it is now.

The take-home message is that this [DWV] would not be favored by natural selection unless humans kept artificially replacing the fallen host colonies.

We are currently on track to witness varroa continuing to coevolve with DWV to become an ever more effective colony-killing parasitoid.

The thing to keep in mind that the virus has the capacity to evolve far more rapidly than either the mite or the bee, due to its very high mutation rate and quick generation time (hours rather than weeks or years).

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/guessing-the-future-of-varroa-part-2/

… a number of breeders who have allowed Bond Selection to take place now observe substantial resistance in their stocks—so long as their bees are kept relatively isolated and away from apiaries of commercial stock. If not kept isolated, the immigration of mites from surrounding apiaries and swarms of the non-resistant bees may overwhelm what would otherwise be an adequate degree of resistance.

It’s quite clear, that left to its own means, Apis mellifera is able to force varroa into the position of being a relatively benign parasite. It is only our current beekeeping practices that are causing this natural evolutionary transition to take so long.

Only when they [commercial breeders] start breeding only from colonies that have survived for a year without treatment, will we then stop rewarding the most rapacious forms of the varroa/DWV Monster, and start favoring a more prudent parasite.

Apis cerana’s Rules for Coexistence with Varroa

Don’t waste your time trying to reproduce in our worker brood—our larvae will “just say no,” and we adults will try to kill you as we remove our self-sacrificed sisters.
But we’ll offer you a carrot, along with a stick. We’ll allow you to reproduce in our drone brood, under the condition that we’ll maintain a sniffing hole in the capping, and monitor for any signs of stress to that pupa. Hurt it, or transmit harmful viruses, and we will seal you and your bloodline into a waxen grave.
And we’ll further restrict your reproduction by rearing drones only from time to time.

At all times we are going to make your life miserable. We will self-groom and allo-groom (groom our nestmates) with fervor. That means that every time you are forced to shift to a younger worker in order to avoid being carried out by an aging ride that might not return, you’ll have to run the gamut again.

If you play by our rules by being a “prudent” minor parasite, we’ll allow you to vertically transmit to the next generation when we swarm.

By forcing the mites to reproduce only upon the haploid drones (which possess only one allele for each gene), and since only strong drones can catch up with a virgin queen, this confers rather intense selective pressure upon A. cerana genetics, since those colonies that produce a lot of healthy drones have the best chance at getting the genetics of their queen (as opposed to those of the drones that she mated with) into the next generation._


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## lharder

Oliver is a bit schizophrenic when it comes to this topic. 2 years ago in BC, he had a nuance free little rant against treatment free, this after stating that the problem of varroa would have gone away quickly if treatment wasn't available. The rant tends to be remembered by conventional beekeepers, not the long explanation that more selection needs to be done. We had some more rants at this year's semi annual along with no mention of selection. It doesn't help.


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## Litsinger

lharder said:


> The rant tends to be remembered by conventional beekeepers, not the long explanation that more selection needs to be done.


Good point, LHarder. A great reminder that this issue (and many others) are often not easily explained by sound bytes, but involve a certain amount of research and willingness to delve into background information.

Keep up the good work with a scientifically-motivated process of selection in your apiary.


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## Litsinger

Well, it seems like the 'bee tree' colony has reluctantly accepted the hive set-up entrance, with maybe 90% of the returning foragers now coming back to the upper entrance. A handful had managed to find another ***** in the tree wrap, so I closed it up today. 

They still appear confused by the hive set-up itself as I observe pollen-laden foragers entering the upper entrance to only come back out the lower entrance with pollen still in-tow.

So, it remains to be seen if they will now actually begin using the hive set-up as an extension of their nest. I'll keep everyone apprised of further developments.


----------



## Litsinger

On this glorious Resurrection Sunday, with sunny skies, no wind and a high of 80 degrees F, I thought it was a good day to finally get back into the hives.

I started with the two Warre hives and found they were both laid-up three boxes deep and had multiple swarm cells started in the top box of both hives. In fact, #1902 was in the process of tearing down some cells though I am unaware if they have actually swarmed.

For the time being, I am treating these hives as genetic resources rather than as production hives, so I am not taking any active steps to mitigate swarming.

Both of these hives have mature drones in residence, though I have not yet observed significant drone flights at the home yard. I observed some new white wax in both of these colonies.

These hives are both also dealing with ant incursions along with hive beetle activity on the bottom boards- no SHB were observed on the combs themselves.

I followed-up with #1804 and found them to be queenright but still pitifully small in numbers. Ironically, it appears they are beginning to put up surplus nectar and seem to have an abundance of pollen.

I finished up (or so I thought) with #1803 and I found them to be laid-up three boxes deep and working on what appears to be a single supercedure cell. There was quite a bit of new wax and brace comb being worked on.

This colony continues to utilize the upper entrance as their primary entrance, despite the fact that the bulk of their brood is closer to the lower entrance.

I moved two brood frames down into the bottom box in hopes of coaxing them down into the previously empty box. I replaced both brood frames with empty foundationless frames.

As I reassembled the hive, I carefully checked to make sure that there was no brood in the 5th box and I shook three frames of bees on to a Cortex board in front of #1804 to give them a nurse bee infusion following the good advice of Squarepeg.

Neither of these hives show any evidence of SHB as yet- curious when compared to the Warre hives, but these hives have screened bottom boards versus the solid bottom boards in the Warre hives.

About an hour later, I went outside to make sure everything was calmed-down and I found a small knot of bees on some pigweed with the queen from #1803 in the middle!

Needless to say, I carefully picked her up and moved her back to the hive entrance and watched her march back into her home. This is now the second time this has happened to me- I need to be much more careful looking for the queen.

The fact that the queen was up in the 5th box baffles me as there was no brood on any of the three frames that I shook down, nor did it appear there was any brood in the box itself- I suppose they had escorted her up there in anticipation of laying up brood in the 5th box?

The more I interact with bees, the more I appreciate just how little I really know about them.

Still no swarms here- in fact, after a 10 day cold, rainy spell here, there is not even any scout activity.


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## Jadeguppy

Sounds good. I am always concerned I will miss place a queen. I've started to do shakes into a box with a queen excluder to help locate her if I do oops. Congrats on retrieving her.


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## gww

Russ
The ants in my area don't bother me and even if all over the hives, don't seem to bother the bees.

I always see some small hive beetle but they also always seem to be being cornered and cause not issue.

I don't have upper entrances on purpose but do have some hive flaws that allow the bees to go higher and they do even if it backs them up a little and the lower is open. The bottom always has a small amount of entrances also.

No scouts for me yet.
Good report, thanks.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

Jadeguppy said:


> I've started to do shakes into a box with a queen excluder to help locate her if I do oops.


GREAT idea, Jade. Thank you for sharing this trick. I appreciate your posting here.

Thanks again for the advice, and have a great week.

Russ


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> The ants in my area don't bother me and even if all over the hives, don't seem to bother the bees.
> 
> I always see some small hive beetle but they also always seem to be being cornered and cause not issue.


GWW:

Thank you for the encouragement. The ants harassed my nucs last summer something fierce, but I was also employing hive-top feeders. I also had some significant SHB numbers in a few of the hives last year when I was leaving the screened bottoms open. It is one of the reasons I decided to experiment with keeping them closed-off year round.

I always appreciate your advice and experienced feedback. 

I hope your beekeeping is off to a great start, and have a great week.

Russ


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## Litsinger

The added nurse bees to #1804 induced some housecleaning. Based on what they were hauling out (see attached) and the shotty brood pattern it looks to my uneducated eye that Gray Goose is correct in assuming they are dealing with a virus problem. I'll conduct a 48 hour mite drop this evening based on renewing their tray on Sunday and update accordingly.


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## Litsinger

48 Hour Mite Drop Counts:

#1803- 7

#1804- 5


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## Jadeguppy

Jadeguppy said:


> Sounds good. I am always concerned I will miss place a queen. I've started to do shakes into a box with a queen excluder to help locate her if I do oops. Congrats on retrieving her.


Glad to help.


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## Litsinger

Caught the first swarm of the season (+/- 300 GDD base 50 degrees F) at the home yard today before lunch- about 4 pounds judging by the space they are occupying. This is about 9 days earlier than the first swam hived last year.

They moved into a three deep Warre set-up located where Hive #1901 previously was- immediately adjacent to #1902 and #1903 about 18 inches off the ground and facing straight East.

There are mature drones with the swarm and they are real going Jessies- pollen is already incoming.

Given I was not here, I do not know where they came from. I would have assumed they came from #1902, but this swarm promptly greeted me with a kiss to the eyebrow while I was observing them whereas #1902 and #1903 are a gentle as kittens.


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## tpope

Cool catch.


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## Litsinger

tpope said:


> Cool catch.


Thank you, TPope. I sincerely appreciate it- just trying to keep up with you!

How's the queen rearing effort going? Hadn't seen an update from you recently.


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## tpope

Litsinger said:


> Thank you, TPope. I sincerely appreciate it- just trying to keep up with you!
> 
> How's the queen rearing effort going? Hadn't seen an update from you recently.


It's not a race of me against you... I am just trying to improve my efforts. I had queens everywhere until I put the word out that I wanted to sell some. Now I have room to place more cells. Hard work and attention to detail... then the bees do something you've never seen.


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## Litsinger

tpope said:


> It's not a race of me against you...
> 
> Hard work and attention to detail... then the bees do something you've never seen.


TPope: I was just kidding about keeping up with you- just acknowledging that I respect your efforts and the investment you have made to become a good beekeeper- a good goal for me is to continue to learn and in time to become as experienced and successful as you are.

I saw your post from this evening and it looks like things are really going well in the queen rearing department- congratulations.


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## clong

Litsinger said:


> Caught the first swarm of the season (+/- 300 GDD base 50 degrees F) at the home yard today before lunch- about 4 pounds judging by the space they are occupying.
> 
> Given I was not here, I do not know where they came from. I would have assumed they came from #1902, but this swarm promptly greeted me with a kiss to the eyebrow while I was observing them whereas #1902 and #1903 are a gentle as kittens.


Russ,

Congratulations! I'm curious to know where it came from. Let us know when you figure it out.


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> Congratulations! I'm curious to know where it came from. Let us know when you figure it out.


Thank you, CLong. I sincerely appreciate it. To be honest, I am not sure at this point how I would determine their origin.

They are mean as snakes, so just judging by temperament they are similar to #1803- could have been some swarm cells tucked-away somewhere I didn't see this past weekend when I inspected last.


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> To be honest, I am not sure at this point how I would determine their origin.
> 
> They are mean as snakes...


Russ,

I was thinking you might find a marked queen, or one of your current hives with a greatly reduced population.

Hopefully, their temperament will change in time?

FWIW, the meanest hive I ever had was a 10-frame nuc installed in mid-April. It produced a 22 lb surplus of honey the same spring, and was still producing white wax in September.


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> I was thinking you might find a marked queen, or one of your current hives with a greatly reduced population.
> 
> Hopefully, their temperament will change in time?
> 
> FWIW, the meanest hive I ever had was a 10-frame nuc installed in mid-April. It produced a 22 lb surplus of honey the same spring, and was still producing white wax in September.


CLong: Thank you for the advice- I sincerely appreciate it. I can definately look for a marked queen and will also make a point to compare colony volume on the hives to see if this yields any clues.

I am encouraged to hear that your mean hive was a big producer. As I continually try to remind myself, my primary goal at this point is hive survival- and that is the only trait I am 'selecting' for at present.

#1803 for example is rather defensive and excited on the combs but can easily be worked with a judicious amount of smoke. If this swarm exhibits similar temperament, I am certainly content with that.

Thank you again for your help and advice. Have a great day!

Russ


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## Litsinger

Duplicate post.


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## GregB

A hive being defensive is just a reminder to try low-level management/leave them alone style.
Appropriate equipment helps - a large horizontal hive would be good (a small horizontal hive is still a high-level management system).

If they die with this approach - a good riddance and a very easy resolution.
If they stay on - well, getting your honey once a year in late fall and not working them otherwise also a very good deal (for the time spent).

As for me, the only thing to do - put them into a *large *Layens/Dadant hive full of frames and walk away.
Seems to me, most of "mean bee" talks originate from high maintenance hive systems where you need to continuously pester them per the system requirements (Lang system being an example).
Almost no bee is really mean if you stay outside of their privacy zone.


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## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> A hive being defensive is just a reminder to try low-level management/leave them alone style.
> Appropriate equipment helps - a large horizontal hive would be good (a small horizontal hive is still a high-level management system).
> 
> If they die with this approach - a good riddance and a very easy resolution.
> If they stay on - well, getting your honey once a year in late fall and not working them otherwise also a very good deal (for the time spent).
> 
> As for me, the only thing to do - put them into a *large *Layens/Dadant hive full of frames and walk away.
> Seems to me, most of "mean bee" talks originate from high maintenance hive systems where you need to continuously pester them per the system requirements (Lang system being an example).
> Almost no bee is really mean if you stay outside of their privacy zone.


I have also seen skunks or ants bothering the hives and keeping them on a somewhat alarmed state. I have a yard I am going to this weekend with a possum issue were the .22 will be the solution. check for signs of other critters bothering them. Bears would be somewhat obvious, smaller critters, may not be. 
GG


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## GregB

Sure, two summers ago now I had a skunk problem to a point that the colony took a significant population hit.
It was strange when I found the queen on the most remote frame from the entrance as if she was really afraid of something.

The nails in front of the hive seem to work:








But anyway, this year I will probably advertise myself locally as a "mean queen" taker.
I will take any mean queen and I will find a place for her, so panicky people do not pinch her.

With the latest influx of the "Russians" I don't know what will be going on this year. 
Could be fun.
Here is the latest subject of the local spam - "Nucs and Russian packages".
I don't think the local peeps understand what it is they are getting - better for me thou.
Speaking of which, I need to build 1-2 new Layens just to have extra space for the "meanies" - got tons of trash lumber.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> A hive being defensive is just a reminder to try low-level management/leave them alone style.
> 
> If they die with this approach - a good riddance and a very easy resolution. Almost no bee is really mean if you stay outside of their privacy zone.





Gray Goose said:


> I have also seen skunks or ants bothering the hives and keeping them on a somewhat alarmed state.


GregV and Gray Goose:

Thank you for the excellent and helpful feedback. Philosophically I am right where you are GregV- I want to leave them alone as much as practical without abdicating my responsibility as a beekeeper. My thought currently is that the colonies who are content to reside in the Warre hives will be treated as genetic resources rather than production hives, which frees me (and them) up even further to leave them alone. 

That said, if this swarm remains hived and in a similar disposition to #1803, I will need to move it to a quieter location to minimize trouble with the kids- last Fall during the dearth I was stung by a returning forager going back to #1803 and I was 45 feet from the hive. While this is not a trait I am particularly fond of, I keep them away from the beaten path and all is well.

If there is a mammalian pest bothering them, I would likely see some evidence (i.e headless and/or macerated bees on the bottom board or ground) right?

Thanks again for the input. I do appreciate it!

Russ


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## gww

russ


> Thank you for the excellent and helpful feedback. Philosophically I am right where you are GregV- I want to leave them alone as much as practical without abdicating my responsibility as a beekeeper. My thought currently is that the colonies who are content to reside in the Warre hives will be treated as genetic resources rather than production hives, which frees me (and them) up even further to leave them alone


You can leave them alone and let what happens happen. Two (or more) routes to do this are, leave them small and force them to swarm or add boxes as they fill them out and reduce the boxes to winter size come fall. If they are healthy, they will be production hives in making bees or honey or both. 

This is basically how I run my langs. I do not make splits unless I am bored but more just respond to the bees. I do however, not try and lose them to the trees. I run them to slow down swarming by keeping space on them and when they swarm, I spit to stop more swarming or at least try and pay attention to catch the swarms before they move on. Usually a little of both. I know another bee keeper who come spring reduces space in the hopes the bees make queen cells and then he makes splits.

I pretty much just keep lots of space on mine till fall when I steal from them and add space come spring.

I would think this would be a perfect way to run warre hives.

If the bees are not healthy, it will not matter long. If the bees are healthy, they will be production hives of some kind and if you have them, might as well take advantage of that. If they die and it is not due to starvation, good riddance but you can still have the honey.

I think I have did as much damage getting in my hives as I have ever helped but see no way around it if you want to learn a little. This hopefully gets a person to a place where he really can only do what is necessary once he learns what that is.

Cheers
gww


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV and Gray Goose:
> 
> ...... I will need to move it to a quieter location to minimize trouble with the kids
> 
> ......I would likely see some evidence (i.e headless and/or macerated bees on the bottom board or ground) right?
> 
> Russ


Russ, 
Yes - absolutely move the "meanies" far and away; while potentially a valuable resource, you certainly do not want to expose yourself to liabilities.
This is one reason I maintain several remote out-yards - to have options to keep defensive bees.

Pests - skunks will usually spit out used-up bees as lumps; there are even pictures - google those up.
For me - I did not find any spit out bees.
But, I found plenty of intrusion evidence - the front of the affected hive was very obviously scratched by a mammal, beyond doubts.
Also, it turned out, there was well used animal trail crossing the bee location - could be a skunk trail.

So yes, bees were irritated by nightly attacks.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> This is basically how I run my langs. I do not make splits unless I am bored but more just respond to the bees. I do however, not try and lose them to the trees. I run them to slow down swarming by keeping space on them and when they swarm, I spit to stop more swarming or at least try and pay attention to catch the swarms before they move on. Usually a little of both.
> 
> I pretty much just keep lots of space on mine till fall when I steal from them and add space come spring.
> 
> I would think this would be a perfect way to run warre hives.


GWW:

As always, your advice is down-to-earth and right on the money (at least from my perspective). Based on your advice earlier in the year, I nadired a box of drawn comb to the overwintered three-tall Warre colonies, removing an empty box from the bottom and replacing it with drawn comb from a dead-out. Last week, both of these colonies (#1902 and #1903) were jammed with bees (and swarm cells), so I went ahead and added another drawn box to the bottom of each, making them four-tall of drawn comb, and trying to keep swarm traps close and frequently checking the trees for evidence of swarms.

If they continue to do well this year, I might be able to remove a box of capped honey from each this Fall when I condense things down.



gww said:


> I think I have did as much damage getting in my hives as I have ever helped but see no way around it if you want to learn a little. This hopefully gets a person to a place where he really can only do what is necessary once he learns what that is.


While I don't know too much yet, I definitely can appreciate how my digging through the hives can (and does- like shaking a queen out on the ground) cause more harm than good. Ultimately, this is where I am trying to gain experience to understand how to provide just enough appropriate management (i.e. a nudge in the right direction) to make a positive contribution to promote colony survival and health. I have a long way to go in this regard.

Thank you again for all your help- I've learned a lot from you.

Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## Gray Goose

If there is a mammalian pest bothering them, I would likely see some evidence (i.e headless and/or macerated bees on the bottom board or ground) right?
For skunks they eventually have a visible path, either up to the hive and back or up to the hive and continue. when the grass gets 3-4 inches high you can see the trail. 1 skunk is only going to eat 40-60 bees a night, but when 8 babies and 3 adults visit they can really knock down the population. I do not see parts, they eat the whole bee, by my hives. A woodland shrew will leave parts. Ants you see going up and down the sides or under the lids. Sitting with in view but well hidden should have you see the skunk at dusk. Sitting close with a .22 on full moon can also work, I have heard... but no you do not always see parts if something is eating the bees.
GG


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Russ,
> Yes - absolutely move the "meanies" far and away; while potentially a valuable resource, you certainly do not want to expose yourself to liabilities.
> This is one reason I maintain several remote out-yards - to have options to keep defensive bees.
> 
> Pests - skunks will usually spit out used-up bees as lumps; there are even pictures - google those up.
> For me - I did not find any spit out bees.
> But, I found plenty of intrusion evidence - the front of the affected hive was very obviously scratched by a mammal, beyond doubts.
> Also, it turned out, there was well used animal trail crossing the bee location - could be a skunk trail.
> 
> So yes, bees were irritated by nightly attacks.


GregV:

Thank you for this good and practical first-hand feedback. To-date, I have not seen any evidence of 'bee chaw' on the ground nor scratched entrances, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Thankfully, I live in a location which affords me the opportunity to move hives way outside of heavily trafficked areas and still be on my property such that I get to have my proverbial cake and eat it too.

Thank you again for your help. Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> For skunks they eventually have a visible path, either up to the hive and back or up to the hive and continue. when the grass gets 3-4 inches high you can see the trail. 1 skunk is only going to eat 40-60 bees a night, but when 8 babies and 3 adults visit they can really knock down the population. I do not see parts, they eat the whole bee, by my hives. A woodland shrew will leave parts. Ants you see going up and down the sides or under the lids. Sitting with in view but well hidden should have you see the skunk at dusk. Sitting close with a .22 on full moon can also work, I have heard... but no you do not always see parts if something is eating the bees.
> GG


Gray Goose: Thank you for this input. I do know that the two adjacent colonies to the hived swarm (hereinafter #1904) are dealing with ants, though it does not appear the ants are making any inroads within the hive itself- but seem quite content under the lid and on top of the inner cover.

I have not yet seen the first sign of skunks, but do frequently see raccoons. As I understand it, they typically don't bother bee colonies, right?

Thank you again for your advice and input. It is really appreciated. Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## BigBlackBirds

Gray Goose said:


> If there is a mammalian pest bothering them, I would likely see some evidence (i.e headless and/or macerated bees on the bottom board or ground) right?
> For skunks they eventually have a visible path, either up to the hive and back or up to the hive and continue. when the grass gets 3-4 inches high you can see the trail. 1 skunk is only going to eat 40-60 bees a night, but when 8 babies and 3 adults visit they can really knock down the population. I do not see parts, they eat the whole bee, by my hives. A woodland shrew will leave parts. Ants you see going up and down the sides or under the lids. Sitting with in view but well hidden should have you see the skunk at dusk. Sitting close with a .22 on full moon can also work, I have heard... but no you do not always see parts if something is eating the bees.
> GG


conibears were designed perfectly for skunk trails


----------



## Gray Goose

conibears were designed perfectly for skunk trails

+1


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## gww

russ


> #1902 and #1903) were jammed with bees (and swarm cells), so I went ahead and added another drawn box to the bottom of each, making them four-tall of drawn comb, and trying to keep swarm traps close and frequently checking the trees for evidence of swarms.


I mean this with good nature. Too bad you did not add all the drawn comb if you had it before they made queen cells. Bees job is to propagate and I read jim lyons say this in riverderwents thread.


> I've seen enough inexplicable things in beekeeping to believe there is a swarming trigger beyond the obvious seasonal impulses. Certainly a heavy spring flow and restricted room are paramount but I also believe there is something else at play that no one has really been able to pin down. There are certain years (or more accurately springs) when it just seems that, regardless of what your management techniques, its just going to happen.


And I believe jim.
Cheers
gww
ps Though my intentions are good, be careful what you learn from me cause I am still dumb as a rock. I got in four hives today just to remind myself of this fact.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Though my intentions are good, be careful what you learn from me cause I am still dumb as a rock. I got in four hives today just to remind myself of this fact.


GWW: This describes me to a tee- I seem to always be 'a day late and a dollar short' when it comes to hive manipulations, and that is generously assuming I do the right thing when I'm in there, just at the wrong time. There is a whole lot to know to be a proficient beekeeper. All I can say at this point is that I am glad I don't make my living doing this stuff or I would starve to death! So... they can swarm, hopefully I'll catch most of them and I'll learn something in the process.

Have a great weekend.

Russ


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## Juhani Lunden

Aggressiveness can also be a reaction to higher than normal mite levels. I thought for many years that I had been breeding for more aggressive bees, just to find out that I had not been able to breed for low enough mite levels.

When the levels get lower, calmness is back. Sometimes this is true, not always.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Aggressiveness can also be a reaction to higher than normal mite levels. I thought for many years that I had been breeding for more aggressive bees, just to find out that I had not been able to breed for low enough mite levels.
> 
> When the levels get lower, calmness is back. Sometimes this is true, not always.


Juhani: 

Thank you for your feedback. While I had never considered it in these terms, it makes sense to me that a colony under stress from either predation or parasites/viruses would be more aggressive than when thriving.

I sincerely appreciate all your input and experienced advice. Have a great day.

Russ


----------



## lharder

I have one site where the bees are under a bit of pressure from ants. I have them on semi ant proof stands, but when vegetation grows, the ants harass the bees until I come by to disrupt their schemes yet again. But those bees seem to be a bit more on edge.


----------



## Litsinger

lharder said:


> I have one site where the bees are under a bit of pressure from ants. I have them on semi ant proof stands, but when vegetation grows, the ants harass the bees until I come by to disrupt their schemes yet again. But those bees seem to be a bit more on edge.


LHarder:

Thank you for the good feedback- what have you found is the best means to knock the ant pressure back?


----------



## lharder

Just weeding around the pallets and maybe reapplying some grease on the ant proof stands. Some ants get by but not in numbers to pose a threat.


----------



## Litsinger

lharder said:


> Just weeding around the pallets and maybe reapplying some grease on the ant proof stands. Some ants get by but not in numbers to pose a threat.


Thank you for the feedback, LHarder. The ant pressure seems to have slacked-off with the three hives beside the equipment shed, so I will simply continue to monitor and evaluate options should it look to be getting out-of-hand.

Thank you again for your help and advice. Have a great day!

Russ


----------



## GregB

I am not even sold on the idea of ants bothering bees.

As for me - this is largely about human distaste for ants in human housing and artificially transferred into the bees, as if the human idea of "cleanliness" somehow should apply to everything in this world (a non-sense).

Bee really don't care IMO as long as the ants keep low profile and stay in the nooks and cracks - normally how ants do it anyway.

In fact, as a part of "log-trap-hive" project I wanna do, contemplate an idea of building a couple of "eco-bottoms" filled with wood shavings and such - ants are welcome.

Already have a colony running in a hive with bug-friendly walls for this year for observation.
Walls built like so (1/2" metal screen holds in place about 1" of wood shavings and bark pieces; plenty of nooks for ants, pseudo-scorpions, spiders, any flora and fauna to settle in where bees can not reach them - again, ants are welcome to chase away any bee pests):


----------



## gww

greg
I did have a swarm move into a trap that had about a trillion ants in it already.

I had used a feed bag as an inter cover. 

I had a swarm move into a trap that had the ruminates of a mouse nest still in the bottom of it.

I leave my traps out all year and just bait in spring.

When top feeding and/or having leaky feeders, I have had lines of ants going up the hive.

This is just in my area, I have seen documentarys on ants in africa that were plumb scary and so I don't know about other areas and the ants they might have to deal with.
Cheers
gww


----------



## GregB

gww said:


> greg
> I did have a swarm move into a trap that had about a trillion ants in it already.
> I had used a feed bag as an inter cover. ........
> 
> gww


Sure.
Bees and most ants are not direct competitors.
Some ant species are likely beneficial to the bees - again, no one cared to study and publish the findings of symbiotic bee/ant cohabitation - (unless I am missing such study) - should be done in wild, un-managed settings properly.

Often those little black ants will make nest between my burlap-made covers.
Well, I shake them out because it is kind of hard to keep them as-is since I need move the burlap and look at the bees.
Too bad, I break their cozy nesting.

Otherwise, they'd be fine there in the hive and maybe harassing the wax moth for my benefit would be the rent-payment.
This is one reason I want to try the "eco-walls" and "eco-bottoms" - the actual benefit of the ants present on the edges maybe higher than the "perceived" threat of them stealing ALL the honey (I can only guess what is actual evil act the ants are to do to the bees - in the cold region, anyway).

As I already posted - high flora/fauna species counts the primitive hives and bee-trees are high and very normal. 
What flora/fauna is present in near-sterile conventional hives is rather abnormally low.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Sure.
> Bees and most ants are not direct competitors.
> Some ant species are likely beneficial to the bees - again, no one cared to study and publish the findings of symbiotic bee/ant cohabitation - (unless I am missing such study) - should be done in wild, un-managed settings properly.
> 
> Often those little black ants will make nest between my burlap-made covers.
> Well, I shake them out because it is kind of hard to keep them as-is since I need move the burlap and look at the bees.
> Too bad, I break their cozy nesting.
> 
> Otherwise, they'd be fine there in the hive and maybe harassing the wax moth for my benefit would be the rent-payment.
> This is one reason I want to try the "eco-walls" and "eco-bottoms" - the actual benefit of the ants present on the edges maybe higher than the "perceived" threat of them stealing ALL the honey (I can only guess what is actual evil act the ants are to do to the bees - in the cold region, anyway).
> 
> As I already posted - high flora/fauna species counts the primitive hives and bee-trees are high and very normal.
> What flora/fauna is present in near-sterile conventional hives is rather abnormally low.


Some ants may be Ok to have around, but the little black ants will take a hive over if you let them. They move into a bottom corner where they can be in between something. soon they take a frame over, then another. Once they move eggs into the hive and have a frame of honey its over for the bees. the ants can re-produce faster. what starts to happen is an Ant latches onto a bee, and the bee takes off in pain, ant hanging on. the bees flys till it drops. down 1 bee and 1 ant, next. and the bees get pissy, everything in moderation.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Some ants may be Ok to have around, but the little black ants will take a hive over if you let them. They move into a bottom corner where they can be in between something. soon they take a frame over, then another. Once they move eggs into the hive and have a frame of honey its over for the bees. the ants can re-produce faster. what starts to happen is an Ant latches onto a bee, and the bee takes off in pain, ant hanging on. the bees flys till it drops. down 1 bee and 1 ant, next. and the bees get pissy, everything in moderation.


If you think about it - any bee tree should be crawling full of ants - just too good of a real-estate place not to use.
And yet bees are living in the same tree for decades in a single setting, if let them.
So again, deficiencies of conventional hives are the true problem maybe.

I suppose I will find out either way.
Not too afraid to see for myself.
It is just bugs.


----------



## JWPalmer

The swarm box I brought home yesterday was full of ants, both the little ones and the larger "tree ants". Bees in one side of the box, ants in the other. After an hour's car ride I popped the lid to see what I had. Bees were very docile but the little ants had eggs all over the top bars. Very few ants in the honeycomb. I was pondering this on the car ride to work today.


----------



## GregB

While at it, googled up the latest on the "eco-bottoms" (been a while since I looked at Phil Chandler's eco-floor video).
Found this US guy who sells "eco-bottoms": https://beetreehives.com/collections/all
It is cool and all, but I rather build the same for free (ants and spiders and bees require no high-grade cedar lumber; dry-rotten wood harvested from standing dead trees is actually better, haha! ).

Sorry for off-top, Litsinger!


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Sorry for off-top, Litsinger!


GregV:

No need to apologize- I just came in from planting trees, and enjoyed reading about everyone's experiences with ants in their hives.

You may be right about the benefit of ants in the appropriate location within a hive and of an appropriate population being a net benefit to the colony as a whole- this makes intuitive sense to me as a symbiotic relationship. I will be interested to hear what conclusions you derive from your 'eco floor' experiment.

I notice that the Warre hives with solid bottom boards are much 'dirtier' than the screened bottoms I have under the Langstroth hives and the bees don't seem to mind it.

It makes sense to me (as with most things in life) as Gray Goose opined,


Gray Goose said:


> ...everything in moderation.


When you consider that everything in nature has a job to do, and that too many of something (i.e wax moths) represents an imbalance that is likely representative of a deeper issue (i.e. failed hive), one might consider that too many ants within a hive might be indicative of a colony-level issue. While I have little to go on, I noticed when the two overwintered Warre hives really built-up in strength, the ant issue subsided- just a single anecdote, so I am not ready to formulate a hypothesis just yet :no:.

Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion- I enjoyed the read, and learned a lot!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Hived two swarms this morning (+/- 410 GDD base 50 degrees F) at the home place; one smallish and one largish of indeterminate origin.

The small swarm occupied a two-tall Warre set-up placed in the equipment shed line-up adjacent to last week's hived swarm (facing East).

The large swarm occupied a three-tall Warre set-up placed under an elevated fuel tank beside the equipment shed (facing South).

Neither was bringing in pollen as yet, so they may be secondary swarms.

So thus far, it is Warre 3, Langstroth 0. 

While it is likely coincidental, it is interesting that all three swarms thus far have occupied empty volumes near the equipment shed, and near other colonies.

Haven't checked any of the off-site traps in the last week or so.

Otherwise, white clover is now blooming profusely here but the bees are not yet working it. No tulip poplar nor locust yet, but our main flow is just around the corner.


----------



## gww

Russ
You are becoming very bee rich.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Russ
> You are becoming very bee rich.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> gww


Thank you for your help and encouragement, GWW. Any scout activity at your traps yet?


----------



## gww

Russ
Not yet but I am starting to worry about my hives maybe all wanting to swarm. I have no ideal cause I have not got in them in a week. I am a fair weather bee keeper and it has been cloudy and rainy and that is still what is in the forecast. I got a sting standing in front of the hives and I have nice bees. They may be starving or be feeling super cramped. When the sun comes out in three days, it may be interesting regardless of which way it goes.

I was feeling really confident, with having good rainfall, that if it did not dry up, it was going to be a great year. I have read though that wet years are not the best for honey and so too much can be bad too.

Stupid bees.








They would rather line up with legs loaded with pollen and get backed up at a flaw in my hive construction then to just use the open bottom entrance.

Here is the only picture I took when in them last time (just too hard to take pictures and inspect).








Lot of bees on that crappy picture heh.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Here is the only picture I took when in them last time (just too hard to take pictures and inspect).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lot of bees on that crappy picture heh.
> Cheers
> gww


GWW:

You are too modest- it seems to me that you are quite successful at this TF beekeeping bit, as evidenced in part by the photo- that is a lot of bees!

Hopefully you are able to forestall any swarming, but even if you don't I assume you catch most of your own swarms?

With my limited experience with the 'bee tree' and #1803 (with an upper entrance), it seems that bees have a strong affinity for a particular entrance they've oriented around, even if it is not the most efficient one for them to use.

Looking forward to hearing how your season unfolds.

Russ


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## gww

russ


> but even if you don't I assume you catch most of your own swarms?


For now, all my hives are at my property. I check daily and believe I have not missed any from my hives yet. I have been lucky in that they land low on a cedar that is close to the hives. They could land high cause it is a big cedar.



> With my limited experience with the 'bee tree' and #1803 (with an upper entrance), it seems that bees have a strong affinity for a particular entrance they've oriented around, even if it is not the most efficient one for them to use.


One time I did a fly back split and put the split part on the very end of the line of hives. It was funny to watch the bees fly to the wrong hive, get to the entrance and then fly to the correct hive. That went on for a couple of days.

I think I changed out the box on top of the pictured hive due to it being warped. The hole may have been bigger. I have lots of flaws in my boxes and it can come out different every time I inspect just due to placing the box back on the hive a little different. It looks bad and they are backed up but a lot of bees can travel through a pretty small hole. They are pretty efficient in that.

It is not modesty to recognize that much of success is more reliant on luck then smarts. Even through out life, things could go one way or the other even when you are acting dumb. I am smart enough to know that my place in life is based as much on luck as it is smarts. Trying is a good thing though.
You are doing well yourself. I hope your luck holds up and believe your smarts are improving as well just from the honest effort that you are applying. I am learning with and through you also.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> It is not modesty to recognize that much of success is more reliant on luck then smarts. Even through out life, things could go one way or the other even when you are acting dumb. I am smart enough to know that my place in life is based as much on luck as it is smarts. Trying is a good thing though.
> 
> You are doing well yourself. I hope your luck holds up and believe your smarts are improving as well just from the honest effort that you are applying. I am learning with and through you also.


GWW:

Thank you for the great reply. I really am grateful for all the advice you have shared, and I have learned much from you. While I have no doubt that 'luck' or providence is a key factor, I am reminded of what Winston Churchill once observed, _"Success is not final, failure is not fatal -- it is the courage to continue that counts."_

From this I recognize that much of our success in any endeavor we undertake is simply having the strength of character and the moral fortitude to keep diligently about our work. The idiom attributed to Seneca comes to mind, _"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity."_

So in that regard, beekeeping is no different than any other pursuit, whereby we must press-on in the face of set-backs and to not make too much of our successes, knowing how fragile they really are.

Thank you again for your encouragement and generosity. I really do appreciate it.

Russ


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## gww

russ
You last post mirrors my belief system. The only thing I add is also to try and do no harm to others. Your education and/or thoroughness seems to be well above mine but I can appreciate great quotes. I get pleasure from reading them, being able to know the attributing source and wish I could retain them clearly in my memory.
I really enjoyed your last post. 
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

Yesterday, I met one of my two neighbors that I am aware of who keeps bees as the result of a swarm call.

To digress a moment, I ran into a friend of mine at a community event last weekend who was sharing that the hives at the place he is renting had swarmed four times already, and that they were out of equipment to hive any more.

As we discussed further, I understood that he was renting my beekeeping neighbor's place (which is about 2 miles from me as the crow flies), and I told him to feel welcome to call should there be any more swarms. 

Just about the time I got back from a long business trip last evening, he called to say there was another swarm at his house and I was welcome to come get it.

When I arrived, I met the landowners and we discussed how the season had gone for them thus far. Through the course of our conversation I learned that they maintained four hives last year and that all of them overwintered successfully in single 10-frame deep brood boxes with no supplemental feed. This is a common set-up among commercial beekeepers in my area, but they will typically put a Mountain Camp feeding on top.

As of yesterday, they had hived seven swarms, lost two to the trees and were out of equipment to hive any more. Thus, they were happy to let me take the latest swarm of their hands, which was about a 2.5 - 3# size and was assumed to be a secondary swarm.

They have been keeping bees approximately 10 years, and said this was the 'swarmiest' year they had observed. They started out with two packages from Kelley Beekeeping and have never treated for mites. They also took my number and said they'd call again if there were any more cast.

I hived the swarm itself in a double 5-frame nuc set-up I've had in my car in the event of a call and it was admittedly an awkward effort.

Given this was the first swarm I have shook out of a tree since I was a kid, I was out of practice. I also didn't think to take my gloves nor smoker so I took about 20 stings to the tops of my hands as a result- paid a bit more stupid tax (as evidenced by the attached photo). My left hand took the bulk of the hits, and my arm swelled-up past my elbow.

Finally, it absolutely rained and hailed in torrents shortly after hiving the swarm so it made me wonder what happens to an open-air swarm in this situation?


----------



## Litsinger

Meanwhile, at the 'bee tree' it looks like I am ready to proceed with the next phase of the operation and I could use some advice.

Specifically, the bees are now using the upper hive set-up entrance as their primary ingress/egress path and there is a fairly stable-sized clump of bees that seem to now occupy the hive set-up overnight (see attached).

If I understand Mr. Hogan's instructions properly, I now need to add an open brood frame to the box to induce nurse bees to begin populating the box and escorting the queen into the hive set-up.

Given that I do not have any hives in the immediate vicinity, I am wondering how long will a brood frame remain viable assuming a temperature range of 60 - 80 degrees F?

My plan would be to shake down a brood frame at the homeplace this weekend (10 miles from the office) and subsequently insert this frame into the hive set-up.

Beyond this, the tree colony had managed to chew a hole through the plastic surrounding the tree opening so I had to close it off. Additionally, I installed a sheet of Correx to the top of the ventilated inner cover as I noticed a a fair amount of bees (mostly drones) were getting in above the inner cover and remaining stuck.

View attachment 48059
View attachment 48061
View attachment 48063
View attachment 48065


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> You last post mirrors my belief system. The only thing I add is also to try and do no harm to others.


Thanks GWW- I too appreciate this philosophy and would add that if we would all consistently apply the 'Golden Rule' (Matthew 7:12), this world would be a much better place. That said, there are a lot of really good people out there (many of them here on Beesource) who are walking this out.

As for the quotes, don't give me too much credit- I remember the gist of the quotes but have to look up the source on Google just like everybody else- just like to give credit where it is due.

Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## gww

Russ
First let me say that I do not know how long the brood will last at those temps. Two things that I might use to come up with a common sense guess are:
1. The shipping 48 hour queen cells thread seems to indicate that the temp does not have to be controlled well.

2. The videos I have seen of some grafting operations seem to take longer then a twenty minute drive.

Maybe wrap in a warm towel and I would think you could move into the hours range. 
This is an absolute guess and not based on experience. 

Are you trying to completely remove the bees from the tree or just getting a hive from it?

I am curious that if you get the queen, what stops the bees covering brood inside the tree from making another one?

I see you will not be removing your wedding ring for awhile. I am surprised you were able to type all of that stuff.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

GWW:

Thank you for your advice on the brood frame. I really appreciate it. Your thoughts seem reasonable to me.



gww said:


> Are you trying to completely remove the bees from the tree or just getting a hive from it?
> 
> I am curious that if you get the queen, what stops the bees covering brood inside the tree from making another one?


The intent at the 'bee tree' is not to trap them out, but simply to get them to extend and provision their colony into the hive set-up such that I can do something akin to a 'walk-away' split. Specifically the idea would be that once the hive set-up has stores, pollen and brood in it, I would inspect to assure there are open eggs less than 3 days old in there and then I would take the whole shooting match away, leaving the 'bee tree' intact and allowing the now queen-less half to raise a 'pauper' queen once they were successfully installed at the home yard. The verdict is still out as to whether or not I can make it work, but so far, so good. Per Cleo's advice, the next step is to put a frame of open brood in the hive set-up to get them to occupy the hive in earnest and treat it as an extension of their nest. We'll see...



gww said:


> I see you will not be removing your wedding ring for awhile.


Ironically, my hand looks MUCH better today than it did last night- I was worried for awhile that I might have to cut my wedding ring off. Thankfully it has not come to that- but another valuable lesson learned the hard way... as usual.


----------



## gww

russ
I read of one keeper (I could not find it back) that took about three such splits a year off of a tree. You will never have to buy bees again with all you have going on. That is a good thing.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Gray Goose

The intent at the 'bee tree' is not to trap them out, but simply to get them to extend and provision their colony into the hive set-up such that I can do something akin to a 'walk-away' split. Specifically the idea would be that once the hive set-up has stores, pollen and brood in it, I would inspect to assure there are open eggs less than 3 days old in there and then I would take the whole shooting match away, leaving the 'bee tree' intact and allowing the now queen-less half to raise a 'pauper' queen once they were successfully installed at the home yard. The verdict is still out as to whether or not I can make it work, but so far, so good. Per Cleo's advice, the next step is to put a frame of open brood in the hive set-up to get them to occupy the hive in earnest and treat it as an extension of their nest. We'll see...

Russ if the queen moves out per your desired outcome, AND stays for 5-7 days and you take her away. you may leave the tree hopelessly queen less, unless one of the following happen.
1) she runs back to the inside nest every day or 2 to leave a few eggs.
2) the lack of queen pheromone in the tree, causes the tree bees to start an emergency queen cell before the last of the larvae get past 3 days old.

just looking down the trail, is it your intent to take a hive even if the tree colony does not make it?
Ever though of grafting from the eggs in the hive to get daughters?
GG


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> it absolutely rained and hailed in torrents shortly after hiving the swarm so it made me wonder what happens to an open-air swarm in this situation?


They just hang on tight and water runs off of them.
Here is a swarm collected off the branch after a night in cold torrent - they lived on happily after.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> russ
> I read of one keeper (I could not find it back) that took about three such splits a year off of a tree. You will never have to buy bees again with all you have going on. That is a good thing.


Thanks, GWW. If (and it's a big if) this works, I thought I might leave the connecting tube in-place to subsequently repeat the procedure in future years.



Gray Goose said:


> just looking down the trail, is it your intent to take a hive even if the tree colony does not make it?


Gray Goose:

Good point- while I have not discussed it here on the forum, Cleo's instructions also advise you to carefully check all the frames in the hive set-up to assure the queen is back in the tree before removing the hive set-up. He discusses that should you find the queen, you carefully pick her up and return her to the hive. 

To quote: _"If you are wanting to take starts, and not eliminate the feral colony, before moving your bees, make sure the queen is not in the trap. If she is in the trap, catch her and place her in the big tunnel and let her go back to the feral colony. If you move her, and you place a new queen with your trapped colony, they will likely kill your new queen and you will be out the cost of the new queen. Also, if you take the queen with the trap, the feral colony will be queen less and will likely die,(unless they are able to make themselves a new queen)."_

So the plan prior to moving the hive set-up would be to:

1. Confirm there are fresh-laid eggs.

2. Confirm there is no queen.

3. Then, move the hive set-up and hope they raise an emergency queen.

All this said, I have never done this before, so I welcome advice.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> They just hang on tight and water runs off of them.
> Here is a swarm collected off the branch after a night in cold torrent - they lived on happily after.
> View attachment 48069


Thanks, GregV. That is a neat picture, and it is interesting to know they can survive a big rainstorm.

Thanks again for your feedback. I do appreciate it!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Today presented sunny skies, low humidity and a high of 78 degrees, so it was a great afternoon to work in the bee yard.

#1803 had approximately three times as much brood than they had last time, but that is not saying too much as that equates into approximately two full frames. I gave them three more frames worth of bees from #1804, closed them up and wished them well.

#1804 is still booming. There are so much forager traffic that they are collecting at the upper entrance waiting their turn in and clumps of bees periodically fall to the ground under the weight of the bee mass. There is brood up to the 5th box, though there is very little brood in the bottom box, being now replaced by nectar and pollen. I found three queen cells in the 5th box- an empty cell, an uncapped cell with jelly and a capped cell.

I took an open brood frame from #1804 to the office and installed it in the 'bee tree' hive set-up. The colony has been storing a bit of nectar and pollen in the outside frames and seemed to be diligently uncapping and removing the cured honey on the remaining frames in the core. Hopefully the open brood will compel the colony to start treating the hive set-up as an extension of their nest.


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> Today presented sunny skies, low humidity and a high of 78 degrees, so it was a great afternoon to work in the bee yard.
> 
> #1803 had approximately three times as much brood than they had last time, but that is not saying too much as that equates into approximately two full frames. I gave them three more frames worth of bees from #1804, closed them up and wished them well.
> 
> #1804 is still booming. There are so much forager traffic that they are collecting at the upper entrance waiting their turn in and clumps of bees periodically fall to the ground under the weight of the bee mass. There is brood up to the 5th box, though there is very little brood in the bottom box, being now replaced by nectar and pollen. I found three queen cells in the 5th box- an empty cell, an uncapped cell with jelly and a capped cell.
> 
> I took an open brood frame from #1804 to the office and installed it in the 'bee tree' hive set-up. The colony has been storing a bit of nectar and pollen in the outside frames and seemed to be diligently uncapping and removing the cured honey on the remaining frames in the core. Hopefully the open brood will compel the colony to start treating the hive set-up as an extension of their nest.
> 
> View attachment 48131
> View attachment 48133
> View attachment 48135
> View attachment 48137
> View attachment 48139


Russ,

I've been slow getting to all these different threads. It is good to hear of a booming hive. A 300% increase in brood! Who wouldn't be excited by that?  
1804 is 8-frame, right? How high will you let it go?

It sounds like you are making progress on the bee tree. Good work. Did you mark the open brood portions of the comb, in case the tree queen decided to come mark her territory?


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> A 300% increase in brood! Who wouldn't be excited by that?


CLong- thank you for your feedback. I like your glass half-full optimism, as I realize I am just looking at the situation all wrong .



clong said:


> 1804 is 8-frame, right? How high will you let it go?


I'll confess I am muddling my way through, and not sure what to do next with this hive (if anything). At this juncture it appears there are almost no capped nectar cells and surprisingly very little new wax going down. Further, they are very disinterested in drawing out new comb in the bottom box (my nadiring experiment) even after repeated efforts to move brood comb down there. So, I suppose I could 'super optimistically' at this point and just see what happens? We have had a protracted mild, wet spring and SHB pressure has been low thus far.



clong said:


> It sounds like you are making progress on the bee tree. Good work. Did you mark the open brood portions of the comb, in case the tree queen decided to come mark her territory?


Now that is a good idea, one I did not have the foresight to consider. I think I've read about you doing so with push pins. I'll need to burn that in my memory for future reference.

Thanks again for all the advice and encouragement- any more swarms for you thus far?


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> CLong- thank you for your feedback. I like your glass half-full optimism, as I realize I am just looking at the situation all wrong .
> 
> I'll confess I am muddling my way through, and not sure what to do next with this hive (if anything). At this juncture it appears there are almost no capped nectar cells and surprisingly very little new wax going down. Further, they are very disinterested in drawing out new comb in the bottom box (my nadiring experiment) even after repeated efforts to move brood comb down there. So, I suppose I could 'super optimistically' at this point and just see what happens? We have had a protracted mild, wet spring and SHB pressure has been low thus far.
> 
> Now that is a good idea, one I did not have the foresight to consider. I think I've read about you doing so with push pins. I'll need to burn that in my memory for future reference.
> 
> Thanks again for all the advice and encouragement- any more swarms for you thus far?



I didn't come up with push pins. Now, THAT is a good idea. I envisioned using a sharpie on the frame.

No more swarms. I've seen heavy scouting twice at my home trap, and twice at another location I see every week day. It is disappointing, but 3 swarms with 7 traps is ok with me. It is the possibility of good genetics that I'm really interested in.

By the way, I too, have seen the reluctance to draw comb. I put a couple of empty combs amongst the foundationless frames in my supers. Now they are getting in gear.
If there is any brood comb in the top box, I would put two more boxes on top. If you can include some empty comb all the better. Find a couple of underutilized frames from below.
They need a lot of space to store nectar, so they can dry it down. I think they sometimes they need something to lure them up in the stack. I'm sure others can offer better advice on how to encourage the bees to store nectar.


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> No more swarms. I've seen heavy scouting twice at my home trap, and twice at another location I see every week day. It is disappointing, but 3 swarms with 7 traps is ok with me. It is the possibility of good genetics that I'm really interested in.


Well, now it is my turn to look on the bright side- I was only aware you had caught one swarm, so that is 3X more! Hopefully you will yet catch some late bloomers or secondary swarms in your traps.



clong said:


> If there is any brood comb in the top box, I would put two more boxes on top. If you can include some empty comb all the better. Find a couple of underutilized frames from below.


This I can definitely do- the advantage of recently returning to beekeeping is I have plenty of woodenware- now drawn comb is another matter...


----------



## Litsinger

Got home just in time this evening to watch swarm #4 move in at the homeplace... or so I thought. 






As I watched, I realized they were stuck in neutral and were still considering other options. Here 2.5 hours later, there is still intense politicking going on, but it looks like they will stay.






The swarms continue to show utter contempt for the only lightly used Langstroth boxes- they are getting very little scout interest.

I noticed that the scouts show strong preferential interest in upper entrances, so I decided to conduct a little experiment (see attached photo).

Finally, I added two supers to #1803 at CLong's suggestion, alternating foundation and drawn comb in checkerboard fashion, making the stack 8 tall- with the understanding that they have shown little interest in the bottom box thus far.

*Update* As of this morning, most of the bees have moved into the swarm trap- it will be interesting to see if they decide to stay.


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> Got home just in time this evening to watch swarm #4 move in at the homeplace... or so I thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I watched, I realized they were stuck in neutral and were still considering other options. Here 2.5 hours later, there is still intense politicking going on, but it looks like they will stay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, I added two supers to #1803 at CLong's suggestion, alternating foundation and drawn comb in checkerboard fashion, making the stack 8 tall- with the understanding that they have shown little interest in the bottom box thus far.
> 
> *Update* As of this morning, most of the bees have moved into the swarm trap- it will be interesting to see if they decide to stay.


That video of the contrarian bee was priceless. Was she doing a "good nectar source" dance, or a "I found a three-comb home with 1 1/2 bird baths" dance?

If you check the lower new box in a week, and find them storing nectar in the comb, that is half the battle. That is when mine started drawing out the other frames.


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> That video of the contrarian bee was priceless. Was he doing a "good nectar source" dance, or a "I found a three-comb home with 1 1/2 bird baths" dance?


Now that's funny! I assumed it was a scout offering a 'can't miss' alternative, but maybe it was foraging information? There are always new surprises in this beekeeping stuff, which is part of what makes it such a fun and rewarding (and maddening) hobby.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I noticed that the scouts show *strong preferential interest in upper entrances*, so I decided to conduct a little experiment (see attached photo).
> .


Interesting.
So you observe what I observe too - the upper entrances do deserve a second review.
I admit I underappreciated them in the past until I started questioning the statements and studying them for myself.
The bees are liking the upper entrances very much this time of the year.
In July/August the preferences may change. Maybe.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The bees are liking the upper entrances very much this time of the year.
> In July/August the preferences may change. Maybe.


Good point, GregV. Just reminds me there are many variables going into cavity selection, and it may very well be impacted by time of year, temperature, elevation and who knows what else.

For what it is worth, the experiment cavity (new boxes with upper entrance) is getting more than average attention from scouts- we'll see what happens.


----------



## Litsinger

The bungling beekeeper strikes again. I am glad I did not get too invested in 100# of surplus honey this year...

I was working in the yard this afternoon when I observed the tell-tale signs of a swarm emerging from #1803- the hive I just added two supers to:






They clustered on a branch approximately 25' in the air directly above the colony- looked to be 4-5# size.

Given I was invested in planting and they were high up, I decided to see what they would do. 

They remained clustered right at two hours and subjected three of my bait hives to intense scouting.

Then suddenly, they alighted and headed in the direction of one of the traps... only to keep going higher and leave the farm.

I take consolation in the fact that I have more colonies now than I had this time last year and that I have now hopefully made an investment in my genetic firewall. 

So much to learn...


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Then suddenly, they alighted and headed in the direction of one of the traps... only to keep going higher and leave the farm.
> 
> So much to learn...


Darn bugs.
So you see, capturing your own swarm very much counts.


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> The bungling beekeeper strikes again. I am glad I did not get too invested in 100# of surplus honey this year...
> 
> I was working in the yard this afternoon when I observed the tell-tale signs of a swarm emerging from #1803- the hive I just added two supers to:


Russ,

Oh! It hurts! Just goes to show why you should never listen to me... inch:

Will you try make any nucs from the queen cells?


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Darn bugs.
> So you see, capturing your own swarm very much counts.


Well said!


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> Oh! It hurts! Just goes to show why you should never listen to me... inch:
> 
> Will you try make any nucs from the queen cells?


Not your fault! My only regret in retrospect is not getting the ladder out and shaking the swarm down. Suppose I was a bit too confident in my swarm trapping skills .

The queen cell question is one of many I still need to learn as a beekeeper. Specifically:

When I was in this hive on Sunday (5.5), I completely pulled the hive apart, looking for swarm cells. While I did not pull every frame out of every box, I did check the undersides of each box, finding a total of three queen cells in the 5th box- an empty cell, an open cell with jelly and a capped queen cell. 

While I am no expert at all, I assumed the single capped cell (based on fact it was by itself and its location on the face of the comb) was a supercedure cell and that the other two cells were made for back-ups. Each of the three cells were on a different frame and were on the center three frames within the box.

So... I am not even sure there are loads of swarm cells in the colony unless they are either:

1. Hidden on the faces of combs down lower in the stack?

2. Have been made and populated since Sunday?

The more I observe working with bees, the less I am convinced I know about them- I have a LONG way to go before I would ever consider myself proficient.


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> Not your fault! My only regret in retrospect is not getting the ladder out and shaking the swarm down. Suppose I was a bit too confident in my swarm trapping skills .
> 
> The queen cell question is one of many I still need to learn as a beekeeper. Specifically:
> 
> When I was in this hive on Sunday (5.5), I completely pulled the hive apart, looking for swarm cells. While I did not pull every frame out of every box, I did check the undersides of each box, finding a total of three queen cells in the 5th box- an empty cell, an open cell with jelly and a capped queen cell.
> 
> While I am no expert at all, I assumed the single capped cell (based on fact it was by itself and its location on the face of the comb) was a supercedure cell and that the other two cells were made for back-ups. Each of the three cells were on a different frame and were on the center three frames within the box.
> 
> So... I am not even sure there are loads of swarm cells in the colony unless they are either:
> 
> 1. Hidden on the faces of combs down lower in the stack?
> 
> 2. Have been made and populated since Sunday?
> 
> The more I observe working with bees, the less I am convinced I know about them- I have a LONG way to go before I would ever consider myself proficient.


Yeah,

I don't get bees either. However, I'm guessing you will find several more swarm cells in the hive if you remove every frame. You may have to blow lightly on the frames a bit, to get some of the clinging bees out of the way.

I was kidding about about the two boxes being responsible. The timing was just too perfect.

I admire you for waiting to see what the swarm would do. Now you will know that a swarm in the hand is worth two in the 25' bush.
I would have taken that earlier swarm sitting on the outside of the trap, scraped them in, and put a padlock on the front. But I never would have gotten to observe the dancing bee.


----------



## gww

Russ
The hives don't always swarm just once. I would be watching it hard in about 8 days. Cut your 25 foot tree down to about 6 foot. Seriously, my bees seem to like the very same tree when they swarm. You might try wrapping a piece of cloth or burlap around a low branch on that tree and put a couple drops of lemon grass oil on it. I have not tried this but if it worked, it would be nice to have a swarm land at around 4 feet or so.

I am not giving advice, just sharing ideals.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> I admire you for waiting to see what the swarm would do. Now you will know that a swarm in the hand is worth two in the 25' bush.


No admiration deserved- I was busy and I find the older I get, the less excited I become about climbing ladders to any real height- I am a lot more brittle than I was 20 years ago... I do like the the proverb, however... it is a good lesson I am going to keep in mind!


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> You might try wrapping a piece of cloth or burlap around a low branch on that tree and put a couple drops of lemon grass oil on it. I have not tried this but if it worked, it would be nice to have a swarm land at around 4 feet or so.


GWW:

Great advice- I am going to plan on doing this tomorrow afternoon. Kind of like a Russian Scion, right?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GWW:
> 
> Great advice- I am going to plan on doing this tomorrow afternoon. Kind of like a Russian Scion, right?


That Russian Scion gizmo never hurts to have hanging about.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> That Russian Scion gizmo never hurts to have hanging about.


Seems like another good tool to have in the bag... I appreciated reading your posts/information about them.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Seems like another good tool to have in the bag... I appreciated reading your posts/information about them.


So, Russ, in my case - I simply staple the well propolised rags directly to the traps (started the practice last year based on the youtube video).
Will continue this going forward.
This basically combines the "Russian Scion" and the swarm trap in one unit.

This being said, hanging a piece of propolised cloth is often much easier to do and often the only choice on hand.
When in a pinch (say, a swarm is pouring out of your hive in front of you) - you can grab a towel and apply few drops of that propolise tincture directly to it and hang the towel out for the swarm to perch onto (hopefully).
Just another idea.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So, Russ, in my case - I simply staple the well propolised rags directly to the traps (started the practice last year based on the youtube video).
> Will continue this going forward.
> This basically combines the "Russian Scion" and the swarm trap in one unit.
> 
> This being said, hanging a piece of propolised cloth is often much easier to do and often the only choice on hand.
> When in a pinch (say, a swarm is pouring out of your hive in front of you) - you can grab a towel and apply few drops of that propolise tincture directly to it and hang the towel out for the swarm to perch onto (hopefully).
> Just another idea.


This is good insight, GregV. Thank you for the advice. My current thought is to build two scions with a pitched roof and a jag of burlap which has been spiked with propolis and LGO and get them hung-out directly above my two hive batteries.

In the future, I can definitely see how having an integrated scion and the trap would be the best of all worlds.

Always something new to be thinking about/considering... thank you again for the advice.

Russ


----------



## JRG13

Location of the cell means nothing, there's no such thing as swarm or supercedure cells, there are only queen cells and your bees are doing one or the other.


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## Litsinger

JRG13 said:


> Location of the cell means nothing, there's no such thing as swarm or supercedure cells, there are only queen cells and your bees are doing one or the other.


Good point, JRG13. My commentary on the subject was simply to highlight the fact that I for one have a lot to learn to attempt to ascertain what they are doing.

Thanks for chiming-in on this thread. Please feel welcome to share anytime.

Russ


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## JRG13

It's a common point of argument for me.... I see it referenced all the time, even people saying, they had both swarm and supercedure cells, I didn't know what to do... Obviously they were swarming but they couldn't get over the fact that they read 'swarm' cells are always at the bottom of the frame and 'supercedure' cells are always on the face of the comb. An interesting side note, if you read up on queen tarsal pheremone, which subdues the building of queencells, in a crowded hive it becomes less abundant on the bottom of frames or comb... but when you think about it, bees don't think in terms like we do, they purposely build out planned queencells for two reasons, to either swarm, or supercede the queen, and they use whatever queencups are available.


----------



## Gray Goose

JRG13 said:


> Location of the cell means nothing, there's no such thing as swarm or supercedure cells, there are only queen cells and your bees are doing one or the other.


JRG, I would tend to disagree. If they want to swarm they make swarm cells, if they wish to Supercede they make supercedure cells. Can they build both,, sometimes. In general the queen lays in Swarm cells and they are on an edge some where, there happens to be a lot of edge on the bottom of the frame. Edge because the hive is full of bees. Supercedure happens when a queen is "perceived" to be failing, they are more likely to be centered on the comb as the bee population is less likely to be wall to wall, in a failing queen scenario. Some where else I read and agree, the terms always and never are inaccurate descriptions when talking about bees. So If a hive was 2 lang boxes in size, and Queen cells were on the bottom center of the top frames, is that bottom or center? If you look at the whole nest it is center so it is not necessary on the frame in your hand but center or bottom of the entire brood nest. for example if on the bottom of the bottom box and greater than 10 you likely have swarm cells. If 2 or 3 and not busting with bees you likely have a supercedure, however there never is an always. The attached is the bottom of the bottom box and is busting with bees and has more than 10, and they were going to swarm, probably  I split it 4 ways so i do not really know for sure.


----------



## Litsinger

JRG13 said:


> ... but when you think about it, bees don't think in terms like we do...





Gray Goose said:


> ... the terms always and never are inaccurate descriptions when talking about bees.


JRG and Gray Goose:

Thank you both for your detailed and helpful responses. While I don't yet know enough to wade into the queen cell discussion, I've seen enough over the last year-and-a-half to appreciate that colony-level decisions are sometimes mysterious and often do not look 'textbook'. It has sought to remind me repeatedly that there are quite a lot of facets one must evaluate what is before you by in order to accurately predict what is likely to happen next.

Thank you both again for your input- I really do appreciate it.

Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Last night I hived a cast swarm (assumed from #1903) that was hanging fairly low in an oak tree when I got home from work.

When I saw it I thought to myself, _'This is great- they are tightly clustered, the branch is small and I can easily get to it from a step ladder.'_

So I confidently got out my ladder, pruners and bee gear and set to work (stop me if you've heard this one before)...

I'm not sure what happened next, but I suddenly had an empty branch in my hand, a pile of bees on the ground, more than a few in the air and a good many busy stinging me on the ankles.

Amazingly, they quickly reorganized and the bulk of the bees re-clustered on an adjacent branch. After successfully removing this branch with cluster intact, I was able to move the cluster immediately above the pile of bees on the ground and get the vast majority of them to join their clustered sisters.

The remainder clustered on the step ladder so I ended up shaking-in the cluster, a couple handfuls of stragglers who re-clustered in the tree and a couple shakes off of the ladder. As of this morning, they seem quiet and well-ordered so I am optimistic that the queen is still in good shape.

p.s. My experimental Langstroth bait hive with upper entrance was the only hive set-up I had handy, so I will have to set another up to continue the trial.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Last night I hived a cast swarm (assumed from #1903) that was hanging fairly low in an oak tree when I got home from work.
> 
> When I saw it I thought to myself, _'This is great- they are tightly clustered, the branch is small and I can easily get to it from a step ladder.'_
> 
> So I confidently got out my ladder, pruners and bee gear and set to work (stop me if you've heard this one before)...
> 
> I'm not sure what happened next, but I suddenly had an empty branch in my hand, a pile of bees on the ground, more than a few in the air and a good many busy stinging me on the ankles.
> 
> Amazingly, they quickly reorganized and the bulk of the bees re-clustered on an adjacent branch. After successfully removing this branch with cluster intact, I was able to move the cluster immediately above the pile of bees on the ground and get the vast majority of them to join their clustered sisters.
> 
> The remainder clustered on the step ladder so I ended up shaking-in the cluster, a couple handfuls of stragglers who re-clustered in the tree and a couple shakes off of the ladder. As of this morning, they seem quiet and well-ordered so I am optimistic that the queen is still in good shape.
> 
> p.s. My experimental Langstroth bait hive with upper entrance was the only hive set-up I had handy, so I will have to set another up to continue the trial.
> 
> View attachment 48269
> View attachment 48271
> View attachment 48273
> View attachment 48275
> View attachment 48277


Cool deal Russ, You got them so congrats. BTW nice pics
Next time lay a sheet on the ground, Place the hive under the cluster, tap the branch with a rake or hoe handle and use what you just seen happen to your advantage. The cluster IMO seems to fall easily, so fall them into, onto a hive.
bottom line you got the swarm and a little venom for your arthritic knee as well. 
And if you know where they came from you may be able to get a queen cell for 1803 or what ever the weak one was this spring where you had to boost them. so if any Queen need replacement this is a good time to use that resource as well. Likely you have some unhatched queen cells in the hive the swarm came from. or split ....
still in the 50s-60s here willows just opened so i am a few weeks behind you.
GG


----------



## gww

russ
We are going to have to change your name from Russ to bee whisperer.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Next time lay a sheet on the ground, Place the hive under the cluster, tap the branch with a rake or hoe handle and use what you just seen happen to your advantage. The cluster IMO seems to fall easily, so fall them into, onto a hive.
> bottom line you got the swarm and a little venom for your arthritic knee as well.
> And if you know where they came from you may be able to get a queen cell for 1803 or what ever the weak one was this spring where you had to boost them. so if any Queen need replacement this is a good time to use that resource as well. Likely you have some unhatched queen cells in the hive the swarm came from. or split ....
> still in the 50s-60s here willows just opened so i am a few weeks behind you.
> GG


Gray Goose:

Great advice- I am going to make a mental note of the procedure you described and look to employ it should I find myself in this situation again. I really don't mind getting stung too much, but the ones on my face have garnered me more than my fair share of curious looks...

Regarding other swarm cells that are no doubt in #1903- I have a quandary in that these hives are true Warre set-ups with just top bars (i.e. no frames). So to make an easy split, I would have to come up with more un-utilized Warre equipment, which I do not have at the moment. 

All along, I have assumed I would utilize the Warre colonies as 'genetic resources' and simply transfer cast swarms from them into Langstroth equipment- I am quickly learning that this is easier said than done and is far less than a sure thing... any suggestions how to simultaneously forestall swarming and move resources from a Warre into a Langstroth?

Also, I had not even considered re-queening #1804 (this winter's micro-cluster). In light of what appears to my untrained eye to be a viral issue, is re-queening the best thing for this colony? I ask this question without a hint of sarcasm- I really don't know what would be the best approach to try to getting them straightened-out short of continuing to add nurse bees.

Thank you again for all your help and advice- I do appreciate it.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Next time lay a sheet on the ground, .......GG


+1
Best to have white (or very light) sheet.
Good chance to spot and snatch a queen then (especially if marked).


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> russ
> We are going to have to change your name from Russ to bee whisperer.
> Cheers
> gww


GWW:

Thank you for the encouragement- what success I've had thus far is largely as a result of all the generosity and good advice I've received here.

I also am reminded of what King Ahab told Ben-Hadad, _"The one putting on his armor should not boast like one taking it off.” _

In other words, I am withholding judgement regarding success or failure until a few more winters have passed...

That said, it is fun to have an increasing number of boxes with bees in them.

Again, thank you for all your help and advice- it has been of great practical benefit to my fledgling beekeeping efforts.

Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Good chance to spot and snatch a queen then (especially if marked).


Great point, GregV. That was my main concern- an orphaned queen (especially in light of my propensity to lose queens). I have used a white sheet to transfer bees before but had not considered using one when hiving clustered swarms. I can visualize how the white sheet would make locating her much easier.


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## JRG13

Litsinger,

Search blue green horizons and look up the queen throne. Easiest way to catch swarms.


----------



## Litsinger

JRG13 said:


> Litsinger,
> 
> Search blue green horizons and look up the queen throne. Easiest way to catch swarms.


JRG:

Thank you for making me aware of this- I found the following website:

http://www.thequeensthrone.org/

I think it is quite generous of them to share this idea for free to allow others to build their own.

Also, the following video was informative- I suppose in the right circumstances, one might not even have to shake the bees down but they would move in on their own:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2drua6n7ITM&t=117s

On a related topic, I decided to build two Russian Scions yesterday afternoon. I took a jag of burlap I had and soaked it in a propolis tincture. I then took four 1 X 6's and built a peaked roof. After installing bailing wire to the roof for attaching the scion to the tree, I attached the burlap to the roof, applied some 'bee butter' to the underside of the roof and sprayed the burlap with a LGO spritz.

I then attached the scions in the general vicinity of my two hive batteries- not sure they are in the right location nor height but I thought it was worth a try.


----------



## gww

Russ


> I then attached the scions in the general vicinity of my two hive batteries- not sure they are in the right location nor height but I thought it was worth a try.


I agree that it is worth the try and good luck.
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I agree that it is worth the try and good luck.
> gww


GWW:

I have you to thank for the idea- I appreciate all your helpful advice along the way- it has been of great practical benefit.


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## Litsinger

I thought this was a neat video worth sharing with a lot of good close-up images of a forager's pollen gathering efforts:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2792551914118970


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## Litsinger

Things seem to be settling-in at the 'bee tree'. 

+/- 90% of the returning bees are going straight to the upper entrance, though there are still a few stubborn bees who are desperately looking for another way in. They have exposed a few ****** in my tree wrap, but it hasn't been anything that a little painter's tape couldn't fix. 

While I have not pulled the frames yet since introducing a frame of open brood (it has been cold and wet here), I did peek inside this morning and there is a good bee population filling the frames in the upper box and quite a lot of bees festooning from the screened inner cover.

Assuming upon inspection that I find brood present at an appropriate age, I will plan on relocating the hive set-up to the farm (taking care to make sure the current queen is not in there) and allow the now queenless bees to raise one from resident eggs.


----------



## Litsinger

I recently read a 2016 article from _Science_ magazine which challenged the strict definition of species / sub-species based on scientific observation. In short, the article sought to demonstrate that hybridization among related species is more common than historically assumed, and can be more easily demonstrated via the genome mapping tools now available to the scientific community at-large. A few of the thoughts from the article seemed particularly germane to the study of Apis Mellifera:

_Most of those who studied animals had ... bought into the argument by the famous mid-20th century evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr that the formation of a new species requires reproductive isolation. Mayr and his contemporaries thought that the offspring of any hybrids would be less fit or even infertile, and would not persist.

By the early 1990s, however, these ideas “weren’t reflective of all the information out there,” recalls [Dr. Michael] Arnold [University of Georgia], who has championed the importance of hybridization in animals in four scientific books. Support for his view had already begun rolling in from some of evolution’s most iconic creatures, the Galápagos finches that Darwin observed as he developed his ground-breaking ideas.

Princeton University evolutionary biologists Peter and Rosemary Grant were making annual visits to a small Galápagos island called Daphne Major and observing the Darwin’s finches (Geospiza) there. They recorded matings, how many young survived, and what the birds ate. Early on, they noticed that 1% to 3% of the pairs consisted of a male of one species and a female of another.

Such hybridization surprised them, Rosemary Grant recalls. “Our mind frame was that it wasn’t happening.” The hybrid offspring varied quite a bit, in traits including beak size and shape. That variation came in handy when drought or floods destroyed the bird’s usual food plants, leaving behind seeds ill suited to the parents’ original beak size. Far from being less fit, the hybrids with their intermediate-sized beaks thrived. There were even hints that hybridization was leading to new species of finches. In 1992, the Grants surveyed the avian literature and found that Darwin’s finches were far from unique. Almost 10% of all bird species failed to respect species boundaries, they reported.

The mixing was so great that, genetically speaking, two different finch species on any particular island were more similar to each other than to the same species on a different island.

Given the ability of hybridization and introgression to speed adaptive changes, says [Dr. Stuart] Baird [Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic], “closing that door [with reproductive isolation] is not necessarily going to be a good thing for your long-term survival.”_


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## Jadeguppy

interesting, ty for sharing


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## Litsinger

Jadeguppy said:


> interesting, ty for sharing


Glad to do it- thank you for your feedback.

Have a great weekend. 

Russ


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## Litsinger

Dug through the 'bee tree' hive this afternoon and concluded I was too late adding the brood frame. The box is full of bees but no genetics as almost all the cells are full of nectar, with more comb being drawn off the screened inner cover.

There were a few open queen cells that I can only conclude might represent the lack of queen pheromone in this 'annex'. None of them had any larvae in them.

At this point I assume they are in full-on gathering mode so I am now deliberating what to do with the hive set-up- I don't want to encourage them to overwinter in this hive, but I also do not want to take away their stores if they have decided to give preferential storage to the hive set-up due to its relative ease of storage versus traveling back to the tree cavity.

Anyone have any bright ideas? I am at a loss at the moment.


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## gww

Russ
They can probably live with out the honey in my opinion. If there were enough bees in the box when you remove it to make a viable hive start, you could move it three miles, add a queen and some space on top and they would probably clean a place in the honey for the queen to lay and use the honey to build more comb for storage above. This is my guess. Or, move a few frames and add more open brood and maybe they will build a viable queen cell that you could move with the bees. It will be younger bees doing the wax drawing and probably a good start to a hive.

I am only giving my ideals as I have never done anything like what you are doing. Just saying what I think might work.
If I am wrong in my thinking, I hope more experience bee keepers on this site feel free to correct me.
Good luck
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Russ
> They can probably live with out the honey in my opinion. If there were enough bees in the box when you remove it to make a viable hive start, you could move it three miles, add a queen and some space on top and they would probably clean a place in the honey for the queen to lay and use the honey to build more comb for storage above. This is my guess. Or, move a few frames and add more open brood and maybe they will build a viable queen cell that you could move with the bees. It will be younger bees doing the wax drawing and probably a good start to a hive.
> 
> I am only giving my ideals as I have never done anything like what you are doing. Just saying what I think might work.
> If I am wrong in my thinking, I hope more experience bee keepers on this site feel free to correct me.
> Good luck
> gww


GWW:

Your ideas are good in my opinion and will likely be what I will end up doing. I was hoping to tap into their genetics by getting the resident queen to come into the annex and lay in there- seems like she has plenty of room back in the tree cavity, and thus has no need for the hive volume for brood building.

Ultimately, I suppose it is not the end of the world if I am able to get 4-5# of bees and plenty of nectar and pollen to have a well-provisioned nuc started from one of my resident hives. 

This is likely what I will do in the next several days.

Thank you as always for your helpful advice. I really appreciate it!

Russ


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## Litsinger

It has been a busy 24-hours at the home yard.

It started with moving the swarm that was hived on May 6th (two-deep Warre) to a permanent location in the dark last night.

Then, this afternoon I conducted hive inspections/manipulations on most of the hives as follows:

#1803 (overwintered Langstroth)- 8-tall 8-frame medium. Heavy forage traffic/pollen. No inspection. 

#1804 (overwintered Langstroth)- 3-tall 8-frame medium. This is the hive which was represented by a micro-cluster this Spring and has received approximately 5 frames worth of nurse bees from #1803. This hive has shown significant brood improvement but still has a long way to go. Saw some eggs laid on the sides of cells and a few double eggs but also a good number of picture-perfect eggs laid in the bottom of the cells. Also found a single queen cell with no contents. Based on all this, I am a bit surprised that this colony has not yet attempted supercedure. 

#1902 (overwintered Warre)- 4-tall 8-frame Warre. Heavy forage traffic/pollen. No inspection.

#1903 (overwintered Warre)- 4-tall 8-frame Warre. Heavy forage traffic/pollen. No inspection.

#1904 (hived swarm April 24th)- 3-tall 8-frame Warre found queenless with a drone layer. Shook several handfuls of bees on the ground in front of #1905 and they appeared to be readily accepted. Saw the first phoretic mite of the season in this group of bees.

#1905 (hived swarm May 1st)- 2-tall 8-frame Warre with approximately 8 drawn foundationless frames. Saw queen and added a box.

#1906 (hived swarm May 1st)- 3-tall 8-frame Warre with approximately 10 drawn foundationless frames. All looked in order and plenty of room.

#1907 (hived swarm May 2nd)- 2-tall 5-frame medium Langstroth nuc with approximately 6 drawn foundationless frames. Moved to a 3-tall 8-frame medium Langstroth.

#1908 (hived swarm May 6th)- 2-tall 8-frame Warre bursting at the seams. Took the trap out of the tree and relocated it, adding a box. A good number of foragers (60+) found returning to the old location.

#1909 (hived warm May 9th)- 2-tall 8-frame medium Langstroth with approximately 8 drawn foundationless frames and drawing on the inner cover. Moved to a a three-tall 8-frame medium Langstroth production hive set-up.

Once completed with this, I looked up to find an approximately 1.5# swarm in the same oak tree (and same branch) that #1909 had clustered on. I hived them in a single 8-frame medium Langstroth, hereinafter referred to #1910, and presumed to emerge from #1903 (but this is speculation).


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## squarepeg

11 colonies. way to go russ! you've got some depth now, as well as a reason why you won't have very many idle moments at certain times of the year.


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## gww

russ
you could always make a couple queen cells for replacement of you questionable queen. They might make you a cell if you put a little open brood up with the honey and over a queen excluder.

On the tree, I have heard that the queen will come out to check on open brood when first placed in a set up like yours. You might have to check with in a couple of hours to catch her but then you have to rely on the hive to make a new one for themselves. This is just something I have read and you might persnal message cleo as I am sure he would know. If she came up, you might even cage her on some empty brood comb and get her to lay for a day or two and put her back and then use that to make a queen. I don't care about genetics enough myself to go to that much work. I more play the number of hives in the hope they don't all die at once. These are the type of things I might try based solely upon things I have read and not actually tried.
Nice report.
gww
Ps I guess your russian scion didn't work this time.


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> 11 colonies. way to go russ! you've got some depth now, as well as a reason why you won't have very many idle moments at certain times of the year.


Thank you, Squarepeg. I owe most of where I am at to good folks like yourself who have been so generous in sharing advice and experienced wisdom.

As you might imagine, I wasn't lacking for things to do prior, so the bees are having to get by largely on their own.

Thanks again for the encouragement.

Russ


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> russ
> you could always make a couple queen cells for replacement of you questionable queen. They might make you a cell if you put a little open brood up with the honey and over a queen excluder.
> 
> On the tree, I have heard that the queen will come out to check on open brood when first placed in a set up like yours. You might have to check with in a couple of hours to catch her but then you have to rely on the hive to make a new one for themselves. This is just something I have read and you might persnal message cleo as I am sure he would know. If she came up, you might even cage her on some empty brood comb and get her to lay for a day or two and put her back and then use that to make a queen. I don't care about genetics enough myself to go to that much work. I more play the number of hives in the hope they don't all die at once. These are the type of things I might try based solely upon things I have read and not actually tried.
> Nice report.
> gww
> Ps I guess your russian scion didn't work this time.


Great advice, GWW. I am learning on the bee tree that I might be trying to catch 'lightning in a bottle' by catching them when they have open eggs in the hive set-up. Good idea to follow-up with Cleo- I am going to do that!

On #1804- I don't even own a queen excluder, but your thoughts make perfect sense to me. Just curious why they have not set-out to replace her on their own.

The scion did not work this time, but it just goes to show that queen pheromone is highly alluring and resilient. I've left the ladder set-up for now just in case...

Thanks again for all your help. I really appreciate it!

Russ


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## clong

Litsinger said:


> It has been a busy 24-hours at the home yard.
> 
> #1804 (overwintered Langstroth)- 3-tall 8-frame medium. This is the hive which was represented by a micro-cluster this Spring and has received approximately 5 frames worth of nurse bees from #1803. This hive has shown significant brood improvement but still has a long way to go. Saw some eggs laid on the sides of cells and a few double eggs but also a good number of picture-perfect eggs laid in the bottom of the cells. Also found a single queen cell with no contents. Based on all this, I am a bit surprised that this colony has not yet attempted supercedure.
> 
> ...
> 
> View attachment 48627


Good report and pictures. I like the one showing the off-center eggs. It is too bad that bee tree hasn't gone exactly according to plan, but you've learned a lot, I'll bet.  Do you plan to try luring the queen out again this year? I hope you'll share what Mr. Hogan says.


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> It is too bad that bee tree hasn't gone exactly according to plan, but you've learned a lot, I'll bet.  Do you plan to try luring the queen out again this year? I hope you'll share what Mr. Hogan says.


Thank you, CLong. You are exactly right- the effort has been well worth it for the experience alone. I have swapped a few e-mails with Mr. Hogan, and he has very graciously walked me through the next steps. Because I can't say it any better than he does, I will summarize my question and excerpt his feedback.

Concerning whether it was too late to continue trying to gather genetics from the 'bee tree':

_It isn’t too late to continue trapping in KY. I normally like to stop about the 20th of June. So you have basically a month._

Concerning the fact that the bees began backfilling the hatched brood cells with nectar:

_Once open brood is introduced, you should check at the end of day 1 and day 2. If you have 3 or more pounds of bees, remove the frames with the bees on them and start the trapping again. Just move these bees and add a queen if you want another colony, or just wait until you are done trapping and recombine the bees together into 1 new hive. If you do not get her on removal # 1, the object will be to weaken the original colony until it cannot sustain itself._

_If you don’t mind, I really believe your mistake is in not checking the trap early, ( 1 to 2 days after introducing open brood). I would then check to see if the queen is in the trap, If so, take her and the frames of bees. With only 1 or 2 days from introducing brood, the probability is very high that there are viable eggs in the original brood nest for them to raise a new queen. If she is not there, remove the bees and frames and reset the trap with open brood. By taking brood you will have weakened the colony, but, this time of year, that is no problem. Again check in 1 to 2 days to see if she is in the trap. If not, remove those bees and start trapping again. As you weaken the hive, she will come out._

Concerning what to do with the queenless bees I remove in the event the queen is not in the initial trappings:

_When I was trapping to get a queen... the 3 pound + of bees that I moved, I did one of the following. Put a new queen with it and you have a new colony. Take a frame of uncapped brood from one of your other hives, give it to these bees, let them make their own queen. Then you can continue to combine bees from your trapping to this hive. As soon as this queen emerges, you can use her brood to make more colonies._

Based on his excellent and helpful feedback, the 'plan' would be as follows:

1. Add a new frame of open brood to the hive set-up.

2. Within 48 hours, carefully inspect the hive set-up for evidence that the queen is present.

3a. If so, remove the hive set-up in total, assuming there are viable eggs remaining in the tree cavity for the colony to re-queen themselves and that the hive set-up is queenright and ready to continue Summer build-up.

3b. If not, remove the hive set-up frames and bees, transferring them to a new hive body and assuming they are queenless. Take prompt action to provide them with the resources to develop an emergency queen.

4. If no queen is present (3b), repeat steps (1) through (3) until the queen is secured or you are tired of fooling with it... whichever comes first.

I am going to think through the mechanics of this, and I will provide an update once I have anything tangible to report.


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## Litsinger

This afternoon represented 48 hours since I transferred Hive #1907 (May 2nd swarm from neighbor) and Hive #1909 (May 9th swarm presumed from #1903) to new Langstroth set-ups. As such, I did a mite drop count and was surprised by the results (both bad and good):

Hive #1907- There were 300+ mites in the tray, which surprised me as they are building-up nicely, had a good brood pattern with no evidence of perforated cappings and no visible crawlers and/or shriveled wings. I am going to watch them very closely for implosion and will put a robbing screen on them at the first signs of trouble.

Hive #1909- There were no mites in the tray, which surprised me given that I had inspected every frame and have been under the impression that brood nest disruption tends to impel phoretic mites to release.

I still have no real firm grasp on what these data mean, but my assumption is that colonies which consistently exhibit a lower relative mite drop regardless of the period of observation will demonstrate a statistically-relevant increase in survivability versus colonies with a higher relative mite drop.


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## Litsinger

So I received a little 'bee education' this afternoon the hard way... as usual.

In preparing to revisit the 'bee tree' trap-out, I went in search of a frame of open brood and decided the most logical place to pull it was from the strongest overwintered colony, which is #1803.

In doing so, I failed to appreciate the fact that they swarmed exactly two weeks ago. As you might imagine, I found the hive completely devoid of any open brood- not one egg, not one larvae, but only the last rounds of capped brood.

The capped brood was all located in the third and fourth box. 

Since I had them apart I decided to take it down to the bottom board to further my education. I made four main observations, beyond what should have been obvious, namely no open brood:

1. There are no other capped queen cells, so presumably they were content with a single primary swarm.

2. They have almost completely ignored the empty box I put on the bottom, only storing a little nectar and pollen in the brood comb I moved down earlier in hopes of convincing them to move down.

3. Speaking of drawing comb, this colony has conspicuously drawn very little comb out beyond finishing out and capping honey storage. Suppose I needed to be more diligent about keeping empty frames available directly above the working level of brood nest.

4. The 4th, 5th and 6th boxes were approximately 50, 70 and 90% capped surplus, so I moved boxes 7 and 8 down to directly above box 4.

P.S. I sure hope I didn't roll the new queen in all the mayhem...


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## squarepeg

Litsinger said:


> 3. Speaking of drawing comb, this colony has conspicuously drawn very little comb out beyond finishing out and capping honey storage. Suppose I needed to be more diligent about keeping empty frames available directly above the working level of brood nest.


this is consistent what walt describes in his manuscript and what i have observed for the most part, i.e. that a colony generally won't turn its attention to drawing new comb until either after it swarms or decides not to swarm.

the exception to this appears to be if foundationless frames are placed within or just to the side of the broodnest, like with matt davey's osbn method.

even with plenty of drawn comb in the upper supers, i have seen similar to your hive 1803 in that those upper supers will get ignored once solid honey is established in a super or two over the broodnest leading to backfilling of the broodnest and swarming.

this has led me to get increasingly aggressive with opening up the brood nest, pyramiding brood up to the next box, and shaking the queen down to an empty deep once the brood nest is occupying the center 5 frames in 3 or 4 supers above that empty deep.

this has worked really well at preventing swarming and getting a nice honey crop. over time i got increasingly more aggressive with these manipulations wondering if at some point i might see ill effects from disturbing the brood nest so much.

i'm wondering now if some of the reason for my efb outbreak is related in part to stressing the colonies beyond their limit by doing this.


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> i'm wondering now if some of the reason for my efb outbreak is related in part to stressing the colonies beyond their limit by doing this.


Squarepeg:

Thank you for your reply- I sincerely appreciate you bringing context to what I found. It is one thing to read things and another to see it for yourself.

Your thoughts on the EFB outbreak are sobering and I can certainly appreciate how pushing colonies to their limits could activate an opportunistic disease. 

Has this experience led you to reconsider how you will approach your management going forward?


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## gww

Square
I am surprised you don't end up with a bunch of queen cells after you add the excluder.
Cheers
gww


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## GregB

squarepeg said:


> .........this has led me to get increasingly aggressive with opening up the brood nest, pyramiding brood up to the next box,
> .......................... stressing the colonies beyond their limit by doing this.


Technically they want the brood-nest to be tight (for sure so in the spring time in the northern areas).
Looking at the current year's spring up here - over-extending the brood-nest would be a bad thing.
In subtropical places you may get away with it (still, not necessarily a good thing and probably finally back-fired).


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## lharder

When my inspector came through, she thought putting gaps in the broodnest was contributing to chalkbrood. Though honestly the worst of the chalk brood I got rid of a long time ago and is less than the last time she came around. I agree with her that too much too soon is not good. Plus mid spring or so the bees don't seem all that interested in making comb even if there is a dandylion flow. Almost no sense to make gaps too soon. Again learning to follow the bees lead and making mistakes


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## squarepeg

walt was very adamant about not disturbing the broodnest in any way whatsoever. he did not however have issue with matt davey's osbn method.

after dozens of hive years manipulating the brood nests in my yards without problems i don't think i'll totally abandon doing any at all. i will back off a notch or two on how aggressively i do so however.


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## Litsinger

After my brood search debacle associated with Hive #1803 on Wednesday, I decided that a proverbial 'bird in the hand' was worth more than 'two in the bush'.

As such, I pulled all nine frames from the top box of the 'bee tree' hive set-up, putting them in a new box and shaking-down all the festooning bees busy drawing out comb on the screened inner cover. 

The result was about 4.5 - 5# of bees and almost nine full frames of nectar with a little pollen.

I reloaded the 'bee tree' box with new frames and brought the bees home.

Once relocated, I took a frame of open brood from Hive #1909 and gave it to the 'bee tree' bees in hopes they will raise an emergency queen, and also gave them another box to keep them occupied in the interim.

As of today, they are busy milling about the robbing screen and orienting, while buzzing with the distinctive whine of a queenless colony.

As an aside, I am always amazed at how other colonies can so quickly identify that a hive is queenless and start looking for opportunity to begin robbing the queenless colony out.

The plan for the 'bee tree' will be to monitor the hive set-up until there are 3-4# of bees in the box and to then add another frame of open brood to attempt to coax the queen down.


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## Litsinger

I am ready to declare that 'swarm season' is over here in Western Kentucky.

All told, I at various points and times had 22 traps out at 7 locations and only caught 4 swarms that moved in voluntarily, for an abysmal 18% success rate. 

In considering the successes and failures of the trapping efforts, I made a few observations:

1. All hived swarms were caught here at the home yard. I was a perfect zero for six at the remote sites.

2. All hived swarms were caught in the inherited Warre hive set-ups. The scouts generally showed utter contempt for the Langstroth swarm traps.

3. I noted that the scouts showed a distinct preference for upper entrances. When watching scouts visit the traps, they overwhelmingly made entry to traps with multiple entrances via the topmost opening. Further, I have one trap out that only has an opening via the bottom board, and it received the least amount of sustained interest of all traps which were routinely observed.

4. Interestingly, the traps that received the most interest were those which were located in the closest proximity to active colonies.

So why did the Langstroth traps not work? While I cannot be certain, a few hypotheses come to mind:

1. The boxes were 'barely-used" and so therefore did not have a heavy lived-in smell.

2. I utilized a combination slatted rack / bottom board, which I am convinced (in conjunction with Items 3 and 4) caused scouts to preemptively reject these traps.

3. These set-ups only had bottom entrances, and scouts were often seen circling around the top of the box looking for a means to gain entry, only to move on before finding/utilizing the bottom entrance.

4. I utilized screened inner covers. My initial logic was that this step would save me having to get in such a hurry to take the traps down, but I expect this simply provided another reason for a scout to reject these volumes from consideration.

At this point, I have left two Warre traps and three Langstroth traps (old boxes with solid inner covers) deployed in the outside chance of late swarm interest.

For next year, my revised Langstroth trapping approach based on what I observed this year would be:

1. Provide upper entrances.

2. Utilize only solid inner covers.

3. Reconfigure traps with more heavily lived-in hive bodies.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> 1. Provide upper entrances.
> 
> 2. Utilize only solid inner covers.
> 
> 3. Reconfigure traps with more heavily lived-in hive bodies.



#1 - I feel what really important is - the *absolute height* of the entrance over the ground level (not that it is upper vs. lower)
Case I will point to - my back porch - I use lower entrance boxes where the entrances are located about 6-7 feet about the ground.
The upper entrance is desirable IF you have ground level traps.
There is the most ergonomic bee flight height range where the flight is the least energy demanding (not too high, not too low).
Let say the lower cut for that range is about ~3 feet off the ground - best to have the entrance above that lower cut (whatever that entrance happens to be - less important).
Last year swarm flew into the entrance only 1-2 feet off the ground for me, but it was a dead-out hive with a lot to offer. You could smell it a mile away.

#2 - I don't have solid inner covers and never will. 
Does not matter to have it solid (unless an integral part of well performing trap).
What does matter - the trap itself should not be overly ventilated.
Make the traps dark and stuffy inside - that what really matters.
Heavily propolised cloth used as an inner cover is really great (and adjustable to a trap of any size and/or shape, be it round even).

#3 - Agreed.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I am ready to declare that 'swarm season' is over here in Western Kentucky.
> 
> All told, I at various points and times had 22 traps out at 7 locations and only caught 4 swarms that moved in voluntarily, for an abysmal 18% success rate....


Well, you were looking for good fishing spots.
Found one so far - only confirming that existing active locations are really good attractants.
Keep fishing with upgraded equipment and you will see.
Too big of a trap - not good either (I think you had those too in your back yard).
Much better traps started dragging the swarms down for me at exact same locations.


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## gww

I mostly agree with greg on the trapping stuff. Some areas have more bees then others to catch. I have 16 traps and average two a year. Only have one so far this year. Some of my traps just have a lid.
Cheers
gww
Ps
Don't be afraid of places that get more people traffic then some wild place. I have been surprised at some of the traps my bees have chosen even when there were places I thought were better. Like by my saw mill even when I was mostly using it every day or at my brothers club house this Sunday that had 40 people milling around. Last year I got one in a trap by his drive way. I have traps in high-lines that the bees could have picked and have before but I have more that have picked the used locations.


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## Litsinger

GregV and GWW:

Thank you both for your feedback, and I was glad to hear that you both hived a swarm this past week. May this portend a good swarm year for you both.

Regarding upper entrances- while it may in-fact relate to absolute height, I noticed this year that it mattered not what height the trap was at (and I had them anywhere from 18" to 8') that the scouts always start at the top looking for a way in. It may not ultimately be the deciding factor, but I do expect it will yield more trap access.

Regarding inner covers- your collective points are well-said. I should have been more precise in stating that it seems beneficial to have the top adequately sealed against light and excess ventilation regardless of what method is employed.

Regarding trap size- it is a small data set, but this year scouts showed a strong affinity for the three-deep Warre set-up, which would equate to approximately a Langstroth deep and a shallow.

Regarding trap location- I had hoped to test this idea by installing traps in both heavily-wooded areas, along wood lot edges and in suburban settings, but the remote traps all struck out. Of the 4 hived swarms, 3 moved into traps installed in the immediate vicinity of active colonies.


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## gww

Russ
The bees may also prefer 15 feet up, but I tried that one year and made a promise to myself, never again. You have did well this year compared to any year I have ever had and so what ever works is what is best. 
Hope things keep going well for you now that you have jumped in with both feet. I am sure it will cause you are doing the other part of the equation, the work and self education. You keep me thinking on bees also and that is probably a good thing for me.
Cheers
gww


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## Gray Goose

squarepeg said:


> walt was very adamant about not disturbing the broodnest in any way whatsoever. he did not however have issue with matt davey's osbn method.
> 
> after dozens of hive years manipulating the brood nests in my yards without problems i don't think i'll totally abandon doing any at all. i will back off a notch or two on how aggressively i do so however.


Just curious SP what are you trying to accomplish with the brood nest manipulations? other than splits I generally leave the brood nest integrity as is. I am wanting to try some OSBN this year.
GG


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## squarepeg

Gray Goose said:


> Just curious SP what are you trying to accomplish with the brood nest manipulations?


swarm prevention which translates into honey production.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV and GWW:
> 
> ....... the scouts always start at the top looking for a way in. It may not ultimately be the deciding factor, but I do expect it will yield more trap access.
> 
> .........Regarding trap size- it is a small data set, but this year scouts showed a strong affinity for the three-deep Warre set-up, which would equate to approximately a Langstroth deep and a shallow.
> 
> ........Regarding trap location .....the remote traps all struck out. ........


Top entrance placement - I think this really has to do with the outgoing smell since the bees don't really posses sharp vision anyway (it is all by smell for them).
The smell plumes are mostly exiting the enclosure via the upper holes and cracks (and the upper entrance, if present).
So the bees are going for the most smelly points first; if the bottom entrance is smelly enough - they will find it too if persistent enough.
In any case, the upper entrance benefits are clear (in both absolute height context and smell output context and whatever else - bees just like them and might as well listen to the bees).

Trap size - yes, just the reconfirmation of 50-60L sizing being the sweet spot.

Remote traps striking out - this is why I stopped the remote trapping - takes a lot of time and very little return (zero for me as well).
Instead, I went for establishing multiple remote yards for two main reasons - 1)the main, widely distributed bee colonies and 2)the secondary, well, trapping on the site.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Hope things keep going well for you now that you have jumped in with both feet.


GWW:

Thank you for your sage advice- sometimes it is hard to convey intent in the written word. That said, my comments on my swarm catching efforts this year were not meant to be construed in a negative sense, but rather just trying to look at the results as objectively as I can to evaluate opportunities for improvement next year. For what it is worth, I am well-pleased with how things have developed this year, though I temper this by knowing the effort to sustainable sideliner beekeeping is a marathon not a sprint... and that is before you throw TF in the mix.

Thank you for all your help and encouragement. I owe much of where I am at thus far to kind folks like you, and hope that this admonition in Proverbs 11 applies in full to you, _"The generous man will be prosperous, And he who waters will himself be watered._


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Top entrance placement - I think this really has to do with the outgoing smell since the bees don't really posses sharp vision anyway (it is all by smell for them).
> The smell plumes are mostly exiting the enclosure via the upper holes and cracks (and the upper entrance, if present).
> So the bees are going for the most smelly points first; if the bottom entrance is smelly enough - they will find it too if persistent enough.
> In any case, the upper entrance benefits are clear (in both absolute height context and smell output context and whatever else - bees just like them and might as well listen to the bees).


That is well-said, GregV. I hadn't really appreciated where the smells would emanate from, but most of the swarm-trapping guides tell you to put the LGO in the top of the cavity, which would then by extension make this smell most pronounced at the top.



GregV said:


> Trap size - yes, just the reconfirmation of 50-60L sizing being the sweet spot.


Most all of my traps fit this criteria- the exception being a few two-deep Warres. I caught one swarm in such a set-up, but it was the swarm that thought long-and-hard before fully committing. In fairness, I think the swarm was almost too large to comfortably occupy this volume, which led them to immediately start bearding once they moved in.



GregV said:


> Remote traps striking out - this is why I stopped the remote trapping - takes a lot of time and very little return (zero for me as well).
> Instead, I went for establishing multiple remote yards for two main reasons - 1)the main, widely distributed bee colonies and 2)the secondary, well, trapping on the site.


These are good points. With remote yards, you already have a reason to be there, you have colonies that might swarm already there, and apparently swarms are attracted to other colonies? This anecdote surprised me as I worked under the assumption that a cast swarm was looking to gain some distance between it and the mother hive and maintain some cosmically-derived colony density determined by a complex interaction between myriad factors. I did not anticipate that they will (and maybe prefer?) to move in right next door to an active colony.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ..... and apparently swarms are attracted to other colonies? This anecdote surprised me as I worked under the assumption that a cast swarm was looking to gain some distance between it and the mother hive and maintain some cosmically-derived colony density determined by a complex interaction between myriad factors. I did not anticipate that they will (and maybe prefer?) to move in right next door to an active colony.


May not be necessarily attracted to other colonies.
Much more certain - bees are attracted by the smell of a used hive (dead or alive) for many good reasons:
- a dead-out cavity full of existing combs and stores - ready to move-in;
- a dead-out as easy source of propolis;
- easy robbing opportunity; etc.

Inevitably, if any bees are around - they will check out a bee hive smell to see what is that about and take action (or inaction) accordingly.

Last year 3 of the 4 swarms trapped (75%) - moved the "next door" per my account (the remaining case - moved into a free-standing dead-out hive).
The previous year, 2 of the 3 swarms trapped (66%) - moved the "next door" per my account (the remaining case - moved into a free-standing, well used trap).

However, I lost a swarm last year (while on vacation away) - they ignored the trap standing "next door" and flew away. 
Well, the trap was under active scouting most of the summer - the scouts do chase the rivals away - could be a factor there.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> May not be necessarily attracted to other colonies.
> Much more certain - bees are attracted by the smell of a used hive (dead or alive) for many good reasons:
> - a dead-out cavity full of existing combs and stores - ready to move-in;
> - a dead-out as easy source of propolis;
> - easy robbing opportunity; etc.


Great points, GregV. I suppose the weighting for a pre-owned and properly provisioned cavity is relatively higher than the weighting for proximity to the mother colony, which makes sense to me.


----------



## Litsinger

Things in the beeyard are quiet in Western Kentucky. 

The main Spring Flow is over after a brutally hot week leading into Memorial Day. And though there is some white clover with secondary blooms after some rain and cooler temperatures, foraging activity is significantly reduced. In all, it appears that the main flow was above-average for our area.

I continue to monitor the 'bee tree' after removing approximately 5# of bees 12 days ago. Mr. Cleo Hogan had advised that you could 'trap-out' bees from an exceptionally strong colony 2-3 times up until approximately the Summer Solstice, but judging from the amount of bees that have repopulated the hive set-up and the amount of foraging activity, I may call my trapping efforts done for the season. I do not want to put the colony in undue risk of failure. 

The relocated bees were supplied with a frame of brood and equipped with a robbing screen. It appears they are in fairly good order now while working on getting queenright, with a pretty respectable amount of pollen coming in.

While it is still early, I have been pleasantly surprised at how diminished the SHB pressure has been this year versus last year. AHudd had surmised it may have something to do with saturated soil from the significant rainfall this Spring (which makes sense), but whatever it is, it has been a nice change of pace from last year.

I've read a couple interesting research articles about swarming preps and seasonal changes to colony disease resistance profiles that I will post when I have time.


----------



## Litsinger

When considering the recent discussions here on Beesource relative to European Foulbrood and researching the topic in general, I came across a very interesting study from the June 29, 2015 edition of the journal _PLoS ONE_ entitled, _‘Overwintering Is Associated with Reduced Expression of Immune Genes and Higher Susceptibility to Virus Infection in Honey Bees’_.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0129956

The main thrust of the research was three-fold: 

_“The first aim of this study was to determine whether there are differences in the immune system between summer and winter bees. We hypothesize that higher incidence of colony losses during winter are associated with decreased immune function.”

“Our second objective was to test whether potential seasonal changes in immune gene expression are associated with different susceptibility to pathogens.”

“Finally, our third objective was to investigate whether worker seasonal variation in immune gene expression and DWV load are associated with different physiological activity.”_

The results were interesting in that they suggested (as might be intuitive) that while bees’ overall viral immune response is down-regulated in winter bees, their bacterial response might be heightened, further underscoring how one might observe that:

1.	Winter dead-outs due to disease might be expected to be more virally-derived and;

2.	Spring failures might be expected to be more bacterially-derived.

Some of the interesting commentary included:

_“Our data show that high DWV loads in winter bees correlate with reduced expression of genes involved in the cellular immune response and physiological activity and high expression of humoral immune genes involved in antibacterial defense compared with summer bees. This expression pattern could reflect evolutionary adaptations to resist bacterial pathogens and economize energy during the winter under a pathogen landscape with reduced risk of pathogenic viral infections. The outbreak of Varroa destructor infestation could have overcome these adaptations by promoting the transmission of viruses. Our results suggest that reduced cellular immune function during the winter may have increased honey bee’s susceptibility to DWV.”

“Our findings are consistent with the hypothesis that down regulation of the energetically costly immune system and physiological activity under adverse winter conditions may be a strategy to save energy and increase overwintering survival even at the expense to increased risk of virus infection.”

“The prevalence of DWV was very high in the tested population, with 95.5% and 100% of workers infected in summer and winter bees, respectively. Winter bees had a significantly higher number of DWV copies per bee than summer bees. The newly emerged winter bees had an average DWV load more than 300-fold higher than summer bees of the same age.”

“Altogether, these results show that while most of the immune system is down regulated, genes coding antibacterial effectors are actively expressed in winter bees. This expression pattern suggests that bacterial infection may be an underlying factor promoting DWV replication. Indeed, bacterial challenge induces DWV replication and reduces bee survival. It has been proposed that bacterial infection can be a consequence of the wounds produced by V. destructor feeding. Additionally, winter bees, which rarely leave the hive for defecation, present ideal conditions for incubation and growth of gut pathogens. Our results, together with previous studies showing increased expression of genes coding antimicrobial peptides in winter bees, suggest that winter bees experience bacterial infections. However, it remains to be verified if this is the case and whether bacterial infection promotes DWV replication during the winter.”_


----------



## Litsinger

This is an interesting article about the 'treat/no-treat' divide among Silicon Valley beekeepers. It seems to present a balanced perspective of both sides of the debate:

https://thesixfifty.com/ticking-mit...etween-the-peninsulas-beekeepers-2bb81903bbdd

A few interesting pull-quotes:

_The worldwide mite epidemic is one of the first things new beekeepers learn about when they start tending bees on the Peninsula. The next thing they learn is that they have to pick a side.

… the science behind the lethal mite epidemic has them locked in a conflict that pits evolution against chemistry, with little room for middle ground.

“Not meaning to denigrate anyone,” Muir [Tori Muir, former president of the Beekeepers’ Guild of San Mateo County] says of the treatment-free crowd, “I typically see the most strongly held opinions in either the people who’ve barely begun beekeeping and have done a lot of reading, or we have some [longtime beekeepers] who’ve been doing it for 35 years, and they’re pretty set in their ways.”

There’s no shortage of creative (if not complex) alternatives to treatment, so in the quest for a solution to the varroa epidemic, Irvine [Fellow Guild member Nickie Irvine] would like to see more tolerance of beekeepers like her who explore alternative methods of varroa abatement. “This kind of general anger toward people who don’t treat . . . We need to let more people experiment to see what works and what doesn’t,” she says. But while she’s tolerant of the short-term attempts of treaters to mitigate losses, she ultimately views genetics as the only solution: “I don’t see how we’re going to get any selection for a better population [of bees] unless we effectively treat very little.”
_


----------



## Litsinger

Took the opportunity today to take a look under the hood of two recently hived colonies I had not yet assessed, namely #1910 and #1911.

#1910 is the result of a small (1.5#) secondary swarm that was hived 27 days ago. It is slow going for them, but I observed the equivalent of two full frames of brood spread out over four frames. It seems plain that they will need a little boost if they are to have any hope of closing-out in time for winter.

#1911 is the result of 5# of bees from the 'bee tree' that were supplied with a frame of open brood from #1909. Imagine my surprise when I saw loads of capped brood inside this hive today, 23 days after relocating them. Maybe I am not good at 'bee math', but if we assume that the best-case scenario for a laying queen from open brood is 19 days, is is safe to assume that the earliest you would expect to find capped brood would be on day 28? Regardless, they are off and running now, so I was pleased to see this.

Otherwise, we are in the lazy days of summer dearth here and the bees are generally not foraging with much intensity. The lone exception is #1804, which appears to have responded favorably to the early season help and is now picking up steam... and apparently playing catch-up.

Small hive beetles remain conspicuously absent. Other than a few dead specimens here-and-there in the trays, I am seeing very few- which does not disappoint me at all.


----------



## Litsinger

Recently ran across two helpful foraging resources I wanted to share for those (like me) who might not be familiar with them.

The first is a regional _'Honey Bee Forage Map'_ based on the Ayers and Harman research. I am located in Region 11 and the tabular data appears to be fairly accurate for our locale:

https://honeybeenet.gsfc.nasa.gov/Honeybees/Forage.htm

The second is a _'Phenological Forecast Map'_ which is supported by localized data collection. For example, there are five (5) data stations in a 20 mile radius about my farm:

https://www.usanpn.org/data/visualizations

Where I can see these resources coming in handy is to compare year-over-year bloom dates and GDD's against one's own observations to help forecast seasonally-dependent operations/manipulations.


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> Recently ran across two helpful foraging resources I wanted to share for those (like me) who might not be familiar with them.
> 
> The first is a regional _'Honey Bee Forage Map'_ based on the Ayers and Harman research. I am located in Region 11 and the tabular data appears to be fairly accurate for our locale:
> 
> https://honeybeenet.gsfc.nasa.gov/Honeybees/Forage.htm


Russ,

Very nice links. You can couple the one above with this chart:

https://www.eversweetapiaries.com/product/spring-pollen-poster/


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> Very nice links. You can couple the one above with this chart:
> 
> https://www.eversweetapiaries.com/product/spring-pollen-poster/


Clong:

Thank you for the reply- these look like some great posters. Are they worth dropping $50 on?


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> Clong:
> 
> Thank you for the reply- these look like some great posters. Are they worth dropping $50 on?


Russ,

My wife bought me one for Father's Day. It is a good-looking poster. Now that harvest is over, I'm going to enjoy watching the bees and trying to determine what they are packing. I'm not sure I would pay $50 for 3, but perhaps $19 for one. I think I have the summer chart.

You could put it on your Amazon wish list if you are so inclined.


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> You could put it on your Amazon wish list if you are so inclined.


Now that is a great idea- they do look very slick online, and might even be construed as 'beekeeper art'.

Thanks again for the feedback- I always enjoy the good-natured humor you inject in your posts.


----------



## Litsinger

At halftime 2019 in the apiary, I thought it would be a good idea to evaluate where I’m at relative to my year-end goals and use this opportunity to recalibrate based on what I’ve learned / experienced thus far.

At the outset, I started with two (2) overwintered colonies and hoped to head into winter with six (6) well-provisioned colonies showing better than average odds of surviving. On that front I feel somewhat bullish about my prospects as I currently have six (6) colonies hived in eight-frame medium Langstroth ‘production’ hives and five (5) colonies hived in eight-frame Warre ‘genetic resource’ hives.

Secondly, I established eight (8) big-picture goals as follows:



Litsinger said:


> 1. At the risk of unfounded optimism, experiment with checkerboarding at least one overwintered hive.


I did execute the Checkerboarding effort on Hive #1803, but it was too late in the season to forestall swarming. That said, the colony did move reliably up through the checkerboarded frames so I see the promise of this manipulation when executed at the proper time seasonally. I hope to try again next year.



Litsinger said:


> 2. Attempt to hive as much local swarm stock as I can secure via swarm traps, alighted swarms and possibly siphoning-off genetic material from established feral colonies.


Thus far, my hive increases have been by way of:

Securing overwintered TF colonies from a colleague- Two (2)
Hiving/trapping swarms- Six (6): of which five (5) were hived here on our farm.
‘Bee Tree’ trap-out- One (1).



Litsinger said:


> 3. Experiment with the most appropriate means to increase the brood density in 8-frame medium boxes- likely through employing narrow frames.


Based on the wise advice of Crofter, I cautiously dipped my toes into narrow frames rather than diving in head-first. Thus far, I have been well-pleased with the results overall. It does make it a bit trickier to remove the first frame from a box when conducting inspections, but the bees seem to work with the frames just fine, even when it comes to building drone comb. While I expect that early Spring build-up will be the real test, based on what I have observed thus far I am in favor of deploying them more widely in the apiary.



Litsinger said:


> 4. Related to (1) and (3)- consider the dynamics of what makes colonies decide where to begin overwintering in the stack and evaluate the premise that anchoring in the bottom is most-suitable to long-term survivability and productivity in my climate.


My ‘guess’ based on what I observed last year is that colonies in our region would prefer to overwinter at the top of the stack if their hive is appropriately provisioned and their winter bee population will allow. While this is strictly a hypothesis on my part, my overwintering goals for this year would be to provision all production hives with upper entrances at the very top of the stack and also insulate under the lid (following CLong’s lead) to provide colonies with the incentive to move to the top and afford them the most frequent opportunities for cleansing flights and earlier/stronger Spring build-up.



Litsinger said:


> 5. Begin moving toward a foundationless paradigm as quickly as practical.


At this juncture, I could not be more pleased with foundationless. Not only have I had no wonky comb thus far, but the comb itself appears to be relatively strong- I have had to fight the urge to inspect frames by turning them at 90 degrees to the face. I suppose the true test will be to see how well I can extract them when the time comes. Based on what I’ve seen thus far, I hope to continue moving in the direction of foundationless throughout.



Litsinger said:


> 6. Related to (5)- evaluate the prospects of implementing a systematic renewal of comb in the stack by possibly moving brood comb up and eventually out.


This has proven even more difficult than I imagined. At this point I am not even sure that systematic comb renewal can be accomplished in a ‘by the box’ approach. My hope was to develop a system to move boxes ‘up and out’ throughout the years similar to a Warre approach, but I have found that the bees tend to ignore the box on the bottom, thus stopping the experiment before it starts. I have read how Tim Rowe conducts this effort by splitting the broodnest with an empty box, but I have not been brave enough to try this approach yet. Maybe when I’ve got the more basic manipulations down…



Litsinger said:


> 7. Cautiously consider making a few splits and nucs.


Due to the swarm trapping efforts, I have found myself with no need to produce artificial swarms. Further, I still contend that the prime swarm (from TF stock) is the best nature has to offer so I am philosophically bent toward taking a ‘swarm first’ approach to apiary growth. That said, I do hope and expect that splits and nucs are in my future, so I am attempting to keep track of relevant colony matrices (particularly mite loads) in an attempt to develop a baseline set of genetic markers for propagation, generally following:



Litsinger said:


> 1.	Be circumspect about making splits from stock strictly based on overwintering success.
> 
> 2.	Monitor mite levels in all hived colonies and proactively protect or destroy those which appear headed for collapse.
> 
> 3.	Build apiary through grafting and splits of only the fittest of the multi-year survivor hives which also consistently exhibit low relative mite levels.





Litsinger said:


> 8. A little honey wouldn't hurt.


I am still sitting on last year’s honey and am not banking on any surplus this year either until I have been able to go through all the production hives for winter close-out. While I have scant proof, I believe that varroa resistance (and colony health in general) is significantly tied to their diet, so I hope to avoid supplemental sugar feeding unless absolutely necessary.

I will conduct 48-hour mite drop counts on the production hives tomorrow and will also outline a few second-half goals for this year in the coming days.


----------



## Litsinger

48 hour mite drop totals from six (6) Langstroth colonies:

#1803- 6

#1804- 2

#1907- 0

#1909- 0

#1910- 0

#1911- 5


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## gww

Russ
last year, I moved my bottom box up in early march. This year, I moved my bottom boxes up in may in the effort to let the unused bottom boxes become honey supers. Most years after the honey flow, I have been using my fresh drawn supers to give comb to smaller hives or swarms that had not drawn a three medium brood chamber yet. then I would feed a little sugar water in oct to get some stores in the combs (which I am going to try and live with out this year)


I am not giving advice here but just telling my reason for trying this this year.

The boxes I moved up this year are close to my oldest, blackest comb. I will have a hard time destroying it (though I do usually lose a few when extracting). I figured this move would get my blackest comb in a place where it could be discarded if I decided to along the lines of how warre did it. I probably won't destroy it though. It would be easier to extract if I do destroy the comb cause I could just crush and strain rather then spin four at a time. 

To me, this is one of the benefits of using all mediums. You can end up with what you want on top of the hive when you want it if you plan ahead a bit. 

If you decide you did want to do some splits, foundationless is great for being able to transfer swarm cells with out having to move whole frames. You just cut them out with some ears and smash the ears you left into the comb in a different hive.

Mostly, I just typed this to show that your reports are still interesting to me and even if I don't respond on every one, you are not wasting your time in typing them cause somebody does read them.
cheers
gww


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## Gray Goose

#1911 is the result of 5# of bees from the 'bee tree' that were supplied with a frame of open brood from #1909. Imagine my surprise when I saw loads of capped brood inside this hive today, 23 days after relocating them. Maybe I am not good at 'bee math', but if we assume that the best-case scenario for a laying queen from open brood is 19 days, is is safe to assume that the earliest you would expect to find capped brood would be on day 28? Regardless, they are off and running now, so I was pleased to see this.

Hi Russ Math is Math, if you have capped brood, you may have either, Got the queen from the tree not knowing it, the tree had multiple queens, or had a small swarm land in the hive, destroy your queen cells and start laying. Or forgot how to count  i would find the presents of the unexpected capped brood an indicator of some fact that you previously did not notice. Now, a Know Unknown... egg to queen 16days, 3 days to harden, a couple to mate and a couple to start laying then 8 to cap brood. Unless there was a capped queen cell in there when you moved them, you have a data point you still have no answer for. BTW this happens so no worries, just a mystery.
GG


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> At halftime 2019 in the apiary,...


Good read, Lit.

Regarding:


> 6. Related to (5)- evaluate the prospects of implementing a systematic renewal of comb in the stack by possibly moving brood comb up and eventually out.


Then move them DOWN and eventually out.
May not be terribly practical - throwing around the boxes (but still is logical).

You know what I do?
I purposefully C&S honey from the brood-nest just for that - the comb renewal.
You can cutout the comb chunks - right on the spot.
Being foundation-less and treatment-free - stupid easy to do and never a concern of the chems and such (so take advantage):
- carry around a bread knife and a large plastic container
- on the spot, clear the bees away and do few strategic honey comb cut-outs directly into your container (take it home and handle later)
- reinsert the frame right back
- they will normally rebuild the cut-out gaps however they see fit and everyone is happy
- a bonus - custom small batch, fresh honey on the table throughout the season
- a draw-back - best if you have a single tier long hive (getting through the stacks - I would not be doing this probably; becomes a hassle).


----------



## crofter

Litsinger said:


> Thus far, my hive increases have been by way of:
> 
> Securing overwintered TF colonies from a colleague- Two (2)
> Hiving/trapping swarms- Six (6): of which five (5) were hived here on our farm.
> ‘Bee Tree’ trap-out- One (1).
> 
> _> I wish I could depend on finding wild bees! No such thing here<_
> 
> Based on the wise advice of Crofter, I cautiously dipped my toes into narrow frames rather than diving in head-first. Thus far, I have been well-pleased with the results overall. It does make it a bit trickier to remove the first frame from a box when conducting inspections, but the bees seem to work with the frames just fine, even when it comes to building drone comb. While I expect that early Spring build-up will be the real test, based on what I have observed thus far I am in favor of deploying them more widely in the apiary.
> _
> > I am using up some of the narrow frames I built in foundationless fashion so I can get them laid up for queen cell removal. I put them in the middle of the brood frames with no worry about splitting the brood, but would not do that with either wax or plastic foundation. This summer is pretty well a wash for any honey but I need to make bees to get my numbers back up. In this case I welcome lots of drones anyways but with all young or split colonies they do not seem to be so gung ho for drone production.<_
> 
> 
> My ‘guess’ based on what I observed last year is that colonies in our region would prefer to overwinter at the top of the stack if their hive is appropriately provisioned and their winter bee population will allow. While this is strictly a hypothesis on my part, my overwintering goals for this year would be to provision all production hives with upper entrances at the very top of the stack and also insulate under the lid (following CLong’s lead) to provide colonies with the incentive to move to the top and afford them the most frequent opportunities for cleansing flights and earlier/stronger Spring build-up.
> 
> _> Dont't be stingy with the insulation; As for the upper entrance, well --- let's just say that last winters experiment with lower entrance only will not be repeated by me! If you use an 1 1/2" lift between the top box and the insulated top it is easy to incorporate an opening in it. Handy for adding feed or pollen subs if needed.<_
> 
> 
> At this juncture, I could not be more pleased with foundationless. Not only have I had no wonky comb thus far, but the comb itself appears to be relatively strong- I have had to fight the urge to inspect frames by turning them at 90 degrees to the face. I suppose the true test will be to see how well I can extract them when the time comes. Based on what I’ve seen thus far, I hope to continue moving in the direction of foundationless throughout.


I am glad to see you having so much success and fun!


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> last year, I moved my bottom box up in early march. This year, I moved my bottom boxes up in may in the effort to let the unused bottom boxes become honey supers.





GregV said:


> Then move them DOWN and eventually out.
> May not be terribly practical - throwing around the boxes (but still is logical).


GWW and GregV:

Thank you both for the helpful feedback on comb renewal. I had not even considered moving the boxes 'down and out', but this seems like a sure-fire way to be in a position to rotate them out if desired. It seems like this would be a good manipulation to tie-into early season checkerboarding efforts when you assume you might be moving the brood nest down anyway. Beyond that, it sounds like this approach would generally correspond with the second-half of Walt's 'Pollen Box' maneuver. 

At this point, drawn comb comes at a premium around here so I am in no hurry to rid myself of any of it, but I thought it might be prudent to at least have the option to be in a comb renewing state-of-mind every year, particularly when you consider all the disease vectors associated with older comb.

Otherwise, I can see how 'on the spot' comb honey would be a unique and effective way of renewing comb in the right circumstances and maybe even forestalling the backfilling of the broodnest? Beyond that, I live in a region of the country where comb honey in jars still commands quite a premium price.

I really do appreciate your feedback, and hope your season is continuing to show promise.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Russ Math is Math, if you have capped brood, you may have either, Got the queen from the tree not knowing it, the tree had multiple queens, or had a small swarm land in the hive, destroy your queen cells and start laying. Or forgot how to count  i would find the presents of the unexpected capped brood an indicator of some fact that you previously did not notice. Now, a Know Unknown... egg to queen 16days, 3 days to harden, a couple to mate and a couple to start laying then 8 to cap brood. Unless there was a capped queen cell in there when you moved them, you have a data point you still have no answer for. BTW this happens so no worries, just a mystery.
> GG


Gray Goose:

Thank you for your reply- I sincerely appreciate it. If I am one thing, it is persnickety... so while I have a lot to learn, I do keep exacting records.

This was the reason I pointed out the timing- Given that I had equipped the colony with a robbing screen my assumption was that the bees came pre-loaded with a queen that I was unaware of. 

The whole experience got me to thinking about the appropriate inspection intervals when making-up queenless splits. 

Specifically, I worked under the assumption that the frames were queenless, so I gave them a frame of open brood, fortified the entrance and left them alone for 21+ days assuming there was nothing to be gained and everything to be lost by digging into them before a queen could be successfully raised.

While it worked out in this case, the downside to this approach is that I don't really know the background on the resident queen- only that she was not raised from the eggs I gave them.

There is so much to learn to be a competent beekeeper...


----------



## Litsinger

crofter said:


> I am using up some of the narrow frames I built in foundationless fashion so I can get them laid up for queen cell removal. I put them in the middle of the brood frames with no worry about splitting the brood, but would not do that with either wax or plastic foundation. This summer is pretty well a wash for any honey but I need to make bees to get my numbers back up. In this case I welcome lots of drones anyways but with all young or split colonies they do not seem to be so gung ho for drone production.


Frank:

Thank you for your helpful reply and encouragement- your advice along the way has been a big help to me. 

I like your idea of incorporating the foundationless frames into the middle of the broodnest. While my sample size is small thus far, it does seem that this is a good way to minimize getting poorly-drawn results. Beyond that, I like the fact that even if I get a frame of mainly drone comb, I can always move it to the outside, and eventually they get what they want and start drawing out worker cells.



crofter said:


> Dont't be stingy with the insulation; As for the upper entrance, well --- let's just say that last winters experiment with lower entrance only will not be repeated by me! If you use an 1 1/2" lift between the top box and the insulated top it is easy to incorporate an opening in it. Handy for adding feed or pollen subs if needed.


My thought right now (subject to revision) is to:

1. Install an 1-1/2" tall Imrie shim with a single 1-1/16" round opening at the very top of the stack.

2. Install a ventilated inner cover over the Imrie shim, topped by a sheet of Correx and then a sheet of 2" thick polyiso similar to: 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Johns-Manv...olyisocyanurate-Foam-Board-Insulation/3851107

3. Top this with the outer cover and wish them good luck and Godspeed.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> .....
> At the outset, I started with two (2) overwintered colonies and hoped to head into winter with six (6) well-provisioned colonies showing better than average odds of surviving. On that front I feel somewhat bullish about my prospects as I currently have six (6) colonies hived in eight-frame medium Langstroth ‘production’ hives and five (5) colonies hived in eight-frame Warre ‘genetic resource’ hives.
> .


Forgot to comment on this one.
You are just like me - last year.

Had two (2) over-wintered survivors - ended up with a low teen #s of hives at the season end (after all the splitting/trapping moves).
Looking back - I over-extended a bit - but that was a part of experimentation/learning.
This year I am not planning on any nucs created after July 4th week (not by design).
If any late swarms come - will maybe let them stay as-is - just to test the incoming phenotypes.


----------



## crofter

Experimenting with different things creates so much less nail biting stress once you have more hives than you really expected.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Had two (2) over-wintered survivors - ended up with a low teen #s of hives at the season end (after all the splitting/trapping moves).
> Looking back - I over-extended a bit - but that was a part of experimentation/learning.


Good point, GregV. This is exactly what my wife has been cautioning me about. In my defense, I really have not taken any heroic measures to increase the apiary this year, but have simply been the beneficiary of gracious Providence. It certainly has not been because of anything I have contributed.

Like you, I am trying to feel my way through what sort of interventions are prudent in a TF context- two in particular being:

1. A colony hanging on for dear life coming out of Winter- #1804 made it through and is now thriving, but only because of generous contributions of nurse bees from #1803.

2. Supplemental Feeding- Any swarms that might arrive from now until the end of the season will likely not make it on their own (at least here). As such, they would likely require supplemental feed.

At this point, I have decided to err on the side of magnanimity, recognizing I can always decide to be cruel and ruthless if I ever have a preponderance of genetic riches. Right now, as they say- 'beggars can't be choosers'.


----------



## Litsinger

crofter said:


> Experimenting with different things creates so much less nail biting stress once you have more hives than you really expected.


Said much more eloquently than I did!


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## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Forgot to comment on this one.
> You are just like me - last year.
> 
> Had two (2) over-wintered survivors - ended up with a low teen #s of hives at the season end (after all the splitting/trapping moves).
> Looking back - I over-extended a bit - but that was a part of experimentation/learning.
> This year I am not planning on any nucs created after July 4th week (not by design).
> If any late swarms come - will maybe let them stay as-is - just to test the incoming phenotypes.


All, I am of the same mind, I will begin pulling back the 9 to 11 decoy hives after the 4th of july weekend. redeploy the combs to get the NUCs up to 8 or 10 frame gear. I do still have 40 deep frames of good honey. IF I manage to catch a swarm late and want to let it try to winter, I will keep back 8 frames of honey to set on top of the swarm for it to have a fighting chance. as well spread the rest out on hives needing it. At this point I have several small splits to beef up to get thru winter. I do have comb and honey so they only need to add ## of bees.
i started the year with 6 survivors, added 5 swarms, 5 splits and 2 packages, so should go into winter with 22 hives or so.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> Experimenting with different things creates so much less nail biting stress once you have more hives than you really expected.


Of course.
Many people around me sit on 1-2 hives of those "almond" packages or Saska nucs or whatever they spent their hard earned money on.
They panic over.... Every. Little. Thing.
Well, I have been there too. 
It is nerve wracking...

One needs to know better to NOT be sitting on a couple hives. 
At this rate you are better off to have zero hives.

Russ and myself are well aware.
Once you hover about the #10, you feel much more liberated and can now afford to do stupid things in the name of learning and experimentation.


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> ...i started the year with 6 survivors, added 5 swarms, 5 splits and 2 packages, so should go into winter with 22 hives or so.


I started with 4 survivors this year (as reported).
Recently I realized I could have 5 survivors - turned out I botched an opportunity to save a good TF queen - slow thinking on my part. Again.
(will rant on this later with the case laid out and for the others' benefit may be).

Have 8 viable units now (8 laying queens). 
This includes one 2019 swarm so far.

Pretty sure by the end of July will be hovering around #15.
That is a good # for me.
Don't even have equipment yet to winter that many hives - always a last-minute, reactive project in my world.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> i started the year with 6 survivors, added 5 swarms, 5 splits and 2 packages, so should go into winter with 22 hives or so.


Gray Goose:

That is quite an expansion- I am impressed. Is 20 - 25 hives where you want to be year-over-year?


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## crofter

GregV said:


> Of course.
> Many people around me sit on 1-2 hives of those "almond" packages or Saska nucs or whatever they spent their hard earned money on.
> They panic over.... Every. Little. Thing.
> Well, I have been there too.
> It is nerve wracking...
> 
> One needs to know better to NOT be sitting on a couple hives.
> At this rate you are better off to have zero hives.
> 
> Russ and myself are well aware.
> Once you hover about the #10, you feel much more liberated and can now afford to do stupid things in the name of learning and experimentation.


Not by choice, but I went from 13 colonies to having only one queenright healthy one, and one surviving but queenless. Picked up two nucs and got the queenless hive back on track and should have some more queens emerge in a week. With no drawn comb progress is slow. Not really wanting to put bees in my medium drawn supers but it is an option I suppose.

With 13 colonies I was riding high; had my inspection for selling bees. Had had 5 or 6 years with no winter losses. The best laid plans of mice and men, do often go awry


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Russ and myself are well aware.
> Once you hover about the #10, you feel much more liberated and can now afford to do stupid things in the name of learning and experimentation.





GregV said:


> Don't even have equipment yet to winter that many hives - always a last-minute, reactive project in my world.


GregV:

I applaud you for being so willing to experiment- I am more of a 'tweak around the edges' kind of guy, but I appreciate folks like you who are willing to take the big risks either for the prospect of a big reward or just for the experience to see for yourself what happens. The world needs risk takers just like it needs slow, deliberate types like me .

That said, I can completely identify with not having enough equipment around and having to be much more reactive than I would like- being a methodical type, flying by the seat of my pants is way outside my comfort zone!


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Gray Goose:
> 
> That is quite an expansion- I am impressed. Is 20 - 25 hives where you want to be year-over-year?


its quite a story, short version. had 16 last fall, lost all but 6 to the winter and varora. 1 hive down here was full of swarm cells in April.
I did a 6 way split, and still shook 2 swarms off a bush near the hive, so lots of little ones there. I did get 2 packages just to start the road to recovery. then the 2 swarm I hived, had 2 more added, I went out last nite and I think I have one more. so 5 swarms for the year is where I think i'll be. I then split my favorites 2 into 5 for a few more. I have 4 queens ordered, intend to split the 2 packages in 1/2 and requeen each half, for 4 more. The place I get queens from does not sell packages, and the package place does not have queen I like. So if it all works out my goal was 16-18 so I may combine a couple late in the Aug time frame. I am short of lids and bottoms so this winter the projects are already lined up. 20-25 would be next year if I can get 7 or so sets of gear built this winter.
GG


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## GregB

crofter said:


> Not by choice, but I went from 13 colonies to having only one queenright healthy one, and one surviving but queenless. ...


Surely you will rebuild - good timing is now.
As long as you want to rebuild, you can do it.

Really, if my annual fluctuations will be at about 50-60%, that is a good # for me and really should pretty normal.
People are loosing sleep over over-wintering ~90-100%.
I say this is outside of 80/20 rule and is not worth it (especially because people then invest too much time/resource into pulling through the not-worthy bees).

Working towards that goal.
Not yet at the 50-60% survival, hoping for this year.


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## Litsinger

crofter said:


> With 13 colonies I was riding high; had my inspection for selling bees. Had had 5 or 6 years with no winter losses. The best laid plans of mice and men, do often go awry


Frank:

Thank you for the reminder to stay firmly grounded and not invest too heavily in one's current success (or failure for that matter). I am reminded of the quote attributed to George Matthew Adams:

_"So that if you are wise, you will not worry. Your success is not final—nor is your failure.

You may always begin again. There is no finality!"_


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## crofter

GregV said:


> Surely you will rebuild - good timing is now.
> As long as you want to rebuild, you can do it.
> 
> Really, if my annual fluctuations will be at about 50-60%, that is a good # for me and really should pretty normal.
> People are loosing sleep over over-wintering ~90-100%.
> I say this is outside of 80/20 rule and is not worth it (especially because people then invest too much time/resource into pulling through the not-worthy bees).
> 
> Working towards that goal.
> Not yet at the 50-60% survival, hoping for this year.


The law of diminishing returns! 80% of the expense and effort goes into getting the last 20% survival.

Somewhere you need a target that suits your purpose and put your time and money on that level. A lot of things factor into our "purpose"; some of them often hidden even from ourselves. Just think of the folks who take it upon themselves to master riding a unicycle! What is that really about?

I felt pretty comfortable at 6 to 8 colonies. That gave me a bit of insurance and a couple of hives a year to sell or give away. That was making it a paying hobby and as much as I wanted to deal with in the heat.

My son has higher winter losses than what I usually managed but would not be willing to devote the time to achieve it. It is easier for him to run a few more colonies into winter and makes up the losses over the next summer. With something over 40 colonies a person is quite flexible. (barring an epidemic) That fits in better with all the other irons he has in the fire.

If a person depends on bee income to rake up the rent money then he probably needs to keep his pencil sharper.


----------



## gww

frank


> If a person depends on bee income to rake up the rent money then he probably needs to keep his pencil sharper.


You definitely have to have your needs down before you jump one way or the other. I am pure hobby and figure that if I spend no money on bees at all that it can not go bad but might go good once in a while. I would not have the energy or work ethic to take up bee keeping as my lively hood. My hat is off to those that do make that their work and I would never question their methods.

Either way, any problem that pops up is like all problems, it sucks when you have them but you won't care so much about them ten years from now.

I am like you in that my stuff has been good to me so far but I don't know the future.

Good luck
gww


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> its quite a story, short version.


GG:

It sounds to me as if you have certainly made good with the resources you had coming out of winter. I am impressed with your resourcefulness. Here's hoping you have much better overwintering success this year so next year it is an easy lift to get to 25.


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## Litsinger

crofter said:


> Somewhere you need a target that suits your purpose and put your time and money on that level. A lot of things factor into our "purpose"; some of them often hidden even from ourselves.


This is wise advice in my humble opinion. Also reminds me that we each get to define success on our own terms (at least as it concerns our beekeeping efforts) and what practical and or intrinsic benefits we hope to derive from them.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> My hat is off to those that do make that their work and I would never question their methods


I agree with this sentiment, GWW. I am reminded about those who live in glass houses...


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## Litsinger

On a more ominous note, I saw the first crawler of the season emanating from #1804 this afternoon. This is on the heels of watching them forcably evict a couple otherwise healthy-looking bees a couple of days ago. So they are now going to be subjected to increased scrutiny.

This is the hive that struggled mightily out of winter this year and appeared to be struggling with a viral problem early in the year.

Reminded me that a low relative mite load in-and-of-itself is not a panacea. Colony struggle and potential collapse may also relate to the veracity of the virus(es) and/or the colonies' innate ability to cope with them.


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## crofter

Litsinger said:


> On a more ominous note, I saw the first crawler of the season emanating from #1804 this afternoon. This is on the heels of watching them forcably evict a couple otherwise healthy-looking bees a couple of days ago. So they are now going to be subjected to increased scrutiny.
> 
> This is the hive that struggled mightily out of winter this year and appeared to be struggling with a viral problem early in the year.
> 
> Reminded me that *a low relative mite load in-and-of-itself is not a panacea.* Colony struggle and potential collapse may also relate to the veracity of the virus(es) and/or the colonies' innate ability to cope with them.


Certainly not when the underlying problem is EFB! The mechanics of that disease sure knocks the mites off their game! Though I am sure that you have heard enough about that lately to be on top of the first symptoms of that.

I have never had more than a very few crawlers which went away by itself. In my case I would say not mite related because I am very proactive on that front.

I have seen the crawlers, with and without DWV symptoms with my sons bees and that seems in lock step with mite levels getting high. Very anecdotal observations considering locations hundreds of miles apart though. With my relative isolation I have fortunately not had to deal with many of these issues. Till EFB showed up.

Sometimes I think location and pure luck can appear to be good management.


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## clong

crofter said:


> Just think of the folks who take it upon themselves to master riding a unicycle! What is that really about?


I resemble that remark! I learned to ride a unicycle in my young, conquer-the-world days. Let me tell you it took my shins a long time to return to normal.


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## clong

Litsinger said:


> On a more ominous note, I saw the first crawler of the season emanating from #1804 this afternoon.


How do you identify a "crawler"? Do they look like they are hobbled? Are they bees wandering around on the ground?


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## Litsinger

crofter said:


> Though I am sure that you have heard enough about that lately to be on top of the first symptoms of that.


Frank:

Thank you for your reply. Gray Goose had suggested a viral problem with this colony early in the season, and this may be further confirmation of that hypothesis. While I would hope I would recognize a significant EFB outbreak I can be honest and say that I have not been looking for it. So as I understand it, the tell-tale signs would be:

1. Spotty brood pattern.
2. Discolored dead larvae in open cells.
3. Dead larvae not 'ropey' but 'rubbery'.

I'll have to take a deep look into this hive and see if such a pattern emerges.



crofter said:


> Sometimes I think location and pure luck can appear to be good management.


I can certainly identify with this sentiment, and I only hope that with time and experience I can learn more about the underlying mechanics that might contribute to both success and failure in my area with the ultimate goal of having sustainable and fairly predictable results.


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> I resemble that remark! I learned to ride a unicycle in my young, conquer-the-world days. Let me tell you it took my shins a long time to return to normal.


CLong:

You are truly a renaissance man!


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> How do you identify a "crawler"? Do they look like they are hobbled? Are they bees wandering around on the ground?


CLong:

While I may not be the best person to respond to your question, I would define a 'crawler' as any bee that is incapable of flight that walks out of the hive and proceeds to walk around on the ground beside the hive. They may or may not show any visible outward deformities. 

In my case, the bee I found had the classic symptoms of Deformed Wing Virus such that she had two shriveled 'nubs' in the place where her wing pairs should have been.

Ms. Rusty Burlew has a good write-up on this over at _Honey Bee Suite_:

https://honeybeesuite.com/bees-crawling-front-hive/


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## clong

Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> 
> While I may not be the best person to respond to your question, I would define a 'crawler' as any bee that is incapable of flight that walks out of the hive and proceeds to walk around on the ground beside the hive. They may or may not show any visible outward deformities.
> 
> In my case, the bee I found had the classic symptoms of Deformed Wing Virus such that she had two shriveled 'nubs' in the place where her wing pairs should have been.
> 
> Ms. Rusty Burlew has a good write-up on this over at _Honey Bee Suite_:
> 
> https://honeybeesuite.com/bees-crawling-front-hive/


Russ,

Fantastic! Thanks for the link.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> GG:
> 
> It sounds to me as if you have certainly made good with the resources you had coming out of winter. I am impressed with your resourcefulness. Here's hoping you have much better overwintering success this year so next year it is an easy lift to get to 25.


 My year has been "reactive" beekeeping, I go out to apply a super and end up splitting to prevent the swarm. I advise that often the plan you have when you lite the smoker is not the one that actually happens. I have been frustrated with the queens I buy so when I find cells I do splits pick the best 2/3s after mating , combine the others into the weaker hives and continue till the combs are all back with the bees. This spring 8 dead outs times the 3 boxes was 240 combs this spring. I like by Aug to have them all back with the bees. In the shop, the ants, the moths, and mold have their way with them. So when I see the Q cells I say good using 30 more combs today. Just go with the flow so to speak. I have 1 swarm line and One Russian line that seem to make the winter, So far All my splits came from them 2 favorite lines, And I have a different swarm line this year to play with. As all the queens are open mated and I am Humble enough to know I cannot control the DCA, I am mating in 3 different Apairies. My "hope" is one of the lines mate into a local survivor stock in one of the 3 spots and I can increase my over winter odds and Varroa survival. Part of that is math, 5 q cells hatching and mating at each place is a fair test for this winter. I expect 5-10 losses. The bees will guide you if you let go of your preconceptions. Russ you ended up with some extra hives this spring, so you have somewhat been in the same mode. Be ready for the luck that comes your way. My winter goal is to build 7- 10 sets of gear,In My spare time. to be ready for next year. grow by 5 or so hives a year.
GG


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## GregB

crofter said:


> Sometimes I think location and pure luck can appear to be good management.


Like I said - many times simple presence of a strong feral population is the real trick (not the management).

Leo Sharashkin talks a lot of TF-style, hands-off approaches.
Well - he is plugged into a strong feral population - that is the real deal (not the cool set-it-and-forget-it Layen's hives).

Solomon Parker (I head most all his audio publications) talks a LOT of how he did TF beekeeping in Arkansas.
Well - he did not talk much at all how was it really possible - he did not even discuss the feral bees much until recently - was all about "let them die" management.
Sure, you can plug into a strong feral population and then you can do a lot of TF-type demonstrations and they will likely work.

All in all - the local population is the major key to everything.
You can do a lot of twicking, but the population will either sink you or keep you afloat.
If you don't like the population - make an effort to change it.
If there is no feral population (entirely possible), well, create a pseudo-feral population (T. Seeley's Darwinian Beekeeping is a good source of ideas).

This is my personal position now.


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## squarepeg

GregV said:


> Like I said - many times simple presence of a strong feral population is the real trick (not the management).


my position as well.

if there are feral wild-type colonies making it through multiple winters undisturbed and without interventions then that at least bodes for the local environment having what it needs to support it.

then it's just a matter of making sure any beekeeper interventions and/or introductions don't get in the way.


----------



## GregB

squarepeg said:


> my position as well.
> 
> if there are feral wild-type colonies making it through multiple winters undisturbed and without interventions then that at least bodes for the local environment having what it needs to support it.
> 
> then it's just a matter of making sure any beekeeper interventions and/or introductions don't get in the way.


+1.

So last year I released a lot of drones from my TF lines (rather incidentally, not by design).
This year I am actually *by design* plugging drone combs that I have into my main surviving TF resource hives - the more drone the merrier.
This is gonna be a lot drone flying around my area.
Trying to high-jack those darn imported almond bees best I can.

PS: yeah, this is counter-intuitive; 
people kill them drones (controlling the mites, so to speak and all power to them); 
well - I produce the drones and I like how the resource hives look this year - very good drone generators;
haha!


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> Fantastic! Thanks for the link.


Glad to help- noticed any crawlers in your apiary?


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I advise that often the plan you have when you lite the smoker is not the one that actually happens.... Just go with the flow so to speak.


GG: I am laughing out loud as I read your post, only because I can now completely identify with this sentiment. It seems that my poking around in the hives rarely ever goes according to the plan I set-out with. One thing I have learned- it is better to simply button them up and go ask for help if you find something you were totally not expecting than to do something rash that becomes difficult (or impossible) to undo.



Gray Goose said:


> The bees will guide you if you let go of your preconceptions.


I like the way you put this. It seems like beekeeping (like so much in life) is easier to progress through when we establish plans and goals but hold them in an open hand, knowing that the circumstances on the ground and/or fate may alter our course.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> My year has been "reactive" beekeeping, * I go out to apply a super and end up splitting to prevent the swarm.* I advise that often the plan you have when you lite the smoker is not the one that actually happens. .......
> GG


This is exactly what happened to me (as I reported in my thread).
Haha!
Applying some repressions to my lazy workers to get them back to work.


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> Glad to help- noticed any crawlers in your apiary?


Russ,

Many, many times over the years, including recently. Some will take off and fly with coaxing. I've found others that won't. I've found frazzled oldsters, younger bees, and drones. I haven't seen any DWV, but I haven't looked that hard, either. Most days, I can spot 1-5 bees crawling around on the ground between the two hives closest to the fence.

My beeyard is carpeted 4 inches thick with wood chips. I wonder if some of the "crawlers" are bees that are harvesting something from the chips. I've seen a cluster of 5+ bees in one spot a few yards away from the beeyard scrutinizing something amongst the chips. Water or sap, perhaps? I'll have to pay closer attention, and get some pictures. If I can catch them in the act, I'll post on my own thread.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> if there are feral wild-type colonies making it through multiple winters undisturbed and without interventions then that at least bodes for the local environment having what it needs to support it.
> 
> then it's just a matter of making sure any beekeeper interventions and/or introductions don't get in the way.





GregV said:


> This year I am actually *by design* plugging drone combs that I have into my main surviving TF resource hives - the more drone the merrier.


Squarepeg and GregV:

Thank you for the excellent feedback. You both have much more experience than I so I defer widely to you both.

Along these lines, my thoughts recently center on the idea of 'doing no harm' to existing genetic resources assuming they are surviving in a feral state without intervention.

In other words, it we assume that nature seeks a complex and multi-faceted balance that has myriad factors (of which many are out of our direct control), the best we can do is hope to tap-into this dynamic and hopefully not unduly disrupt it while still trying to support our own objectives for tapping-into these resources.

So it leads me to continue exploring more steps I can take personally regarding both apiary design and my associated management that more closely mimic the natural colony dynamic. This idea might assume that Dr. Seeley's 'Darwinian Beekeeping' model has captured all the critical elements, or there may be others, like GregV's 'eco-floor' experiments.

Obviously, all this presupposes that one has a fairly stable symbiotic balance in place, and it seems plain to me that the strategies would likely need to be much different in areas of significant flux, i.e. a 'genetic firewall'.

I do really enjoy reading about the varied dynamics that are at work in the disparate locations where we all live, and feel like I am better for the exchange of information that is happening here.


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> My beeyard is carpeted 4 inches thick with wood chips. I wonder if some of the "crawlers" are bees that are harvesting something from the chips. I've seen a cluster of 5+ bees in one spot a few yards away from the beeyard scrutinizing something amongst the chips. Water or sap, perhaps? I'll have to pay closer attention, and get some pictures. If I can catch them in the act, I'll post on my own thread.


CLong:

Like you, I have hardwood chips spread out on an orchard adjacent to a couple of my hives. I have observed bees routinely visiting the chips and have also assumed they are after water or sap. I've noticed too that when I am cutting up firewood on a day that is warm enough for flying, I will almost always draw a crowd.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> 
> Like you, I have hardwood chips spread out on an orchard adjacent to a couple of my hives. I have observed bees routinely visiting the chips and have also assumed they are after water or sap. I've noticed too that when I am cutting up firewood on a day that is warm enough for flying, I will almost always draw a crowd.


Them bees just like the smell of the wood I recon.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Them bees just like the smell of the wood I recon.


GregV: With talk like that, you'll fit in right nice here in Kentucky.


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> CLong:
> 
> Like you, I have hardwood chips spread out on an orchard adjacent to a couple of my hives.


Russ,

My orchard is covered with wood chips too. Did you get that idea from Paul Gautschi? He did a documentary called "Back to Eden".


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> My orchard is covered with wood chips too. Did you get that idea from Paul Gautschi? He did a documentary called "Back to Eden".


I was actually first exposed to the idea in Michael Phillips book, "The Holistic Orchard". Following that however, I did watch Paul's video and was convinced of the merits of such a system. 

I have been impressed with both how effective it is at weed control and at improving the underlying tilth of the soil. What remains to be seen is whether the increased moisture retention is a good thing or a bad thing here were we reliably get 4" of rain a month as a historical average.


----------



## Litsinger

As previously mentioned, I recently read a research paper entitled, _‘Colony Fissioning in Honey Bees: How is Swarm Departure Triggered and What Determines Who Leaves?’_

https://ecommons.cornell.edu/handle/1813/14898

Prepared by Ms. Juliana Rangel Posada, Ph. D. (currently at Texas A&M University) as a part of her post-doctoral dissertation work with Dr. Thomas Seeley at Cornell University, it explored four (4) main questions (with accompanying results) regarding swarm dynamics:

1.	The role of waggle signals in swarm preparations:

_“We … found that neither the worker-worker shaking nor the waggle-run signals increased before or during the swarm departure. This result indicates that they are not directly involved in stimulating swarm bees to depart. It is probably not surprising that the waggle dance is not used in this context, since it is mainly used as a mechanism to communicate the locations of important resources, i.e. rich food sources and suitable nest sites.”_

2.	Whether scouts explore potential nest sites prior to swarm departure:

_“Using a nest box and colonies in observation hives, we found that a swarm’s nest-site scouts search for potential nest cavities prior to the departure of the swarm from its hive. Furthermore, we found that the predeparture nest-site scouts are the sole producers of the worker piping signal and that they are the first producers of the buzz-run signal.”_

3.	Whether and to what extent pre-swarm nest sites are defended from competing occupants:

_“When only 1-3 scouts from each swarm were at the box, they rarely fought. But when the scouts from one swarm outnumbered those from the other swarm (4-20 vs. 1-3 bees), those in the majority advertised their presence with a buzzing behavior at the entrance opening, and started mobbing and killing those in the minority. When one swarm gained clear control of the nest box (20+ vs. 0-1 bees), some of its scouts guarded the box’s entrance, preventing entry by foreign scouts.”_

4.	Whether patrilinear make-up impacts whether individual bees stay or go with a swarm:

_“Our findings showed that there is no intracolonial nepotism during swarming, despite the theoretical prediction that workers should benefit from preferentially staying in the old nest based on their genetic relatedness to the daughter queen(s). The absence of intracolonial nepotism during colony fissioning could be because the workers cannot discriminate between full-sister and half-sister queens when they are immature, or because the costs of behaving nepotistically outweigh the benefits.”_


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## gww

Nice write up. Now I don't have to read it all for myself.
Cheers
gww


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> 2.	Whether scouts explore potential nest sites prior to swarm departure:
> 
> _“Using a nest box and colonies in observation hives, we found that a swarm’s nest-site scouts search for potential nest cavities prior to the departure of the swarm from its hive. Furthermore, we found that the predeparture nest-site scouts are the sole producers of the worker piping signal and that they are the first producers of the buzz-run signal.”_


Russ,

Not only do bee scout for future homes before leaving the current one, they may even clean them in advance of the swarm departing!

In the latest Beekeeper's Corner podcasts 156 & 157, http://www.bkcorner.org/ Kevin Inglin relates how scout bees started checking out a trap at his house. As I recall this went on for a couple of days. He noticed the bees hauling out tiny filaments. Upon closer inspection, the filaments were found to be wax moth webbing. The traffic stopped for a day or two, and then a swarm moved in! It appears that scout bees were cleaning out the trap to prepare for an upcoming swarm. I don't recall the time elapsed between the first scouts, and the final move-in.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Nice write up. Now I don't have to read it all for myself.
> Cheers
> gww


Thanks, GWW. I'm glad it is a help, and I always appreciate your help and input. Have a great weekend.

Russ


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> Not only do bee scout for future homes before leaving the current one, they may even clean them in advance of the swarm departing!
> 
> In the latest Beekeeper's Corner podcasts 156 & 157, http://www.bkcorner.org/ Kevin Inglin relates how scout bees started checking out a trap at his house. As I recall this went on for a couple of days. He noticed the bees hauling out tiny filaments. Upon closer inspection, the filaments were found to be wax moth webbing. The traffic stopped for a day or two, and then a swarm moved in! It appears that scout bees were cleaning out the trap to prepare for an upcoming swarm. I don't recall the time elapsed between the first scouts, and the final move-in.


Now that is interesting, CLong- thank you for sharing. I am not familar with this podcast, so I will have to check it out!

Thanks again for your feedback, and have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

A few recent random observations:

1.	Slatted racks do appear to reduce bearding- While it is anecdotal, we are now firmly in the heat of summer here and the Langstroth hives with slatted racks appear to exhibit much less bearding. Conversely, the Warre hives appear to exhibit much more bearding (see attached). I have also noted that bees do appear to congregate in the ‘vestibule’ between the bottom of the slatted rack and the bottom board. What remains to be seen is whether slatted racks impart a negative feature in controlling hive beetles. I do not consider this year a test of this theory as the SHB’s have been noticeably absent here.

2.	No fresh eggs does not mean a hive is queenless- I have been concerned of late at the lack of incoming pollen and the slow nature of build-up of #1911. On Wednesday (6.26), I did a deep inspection and was convinced they had recently lost their queen as there were no fresh eggs and only a smattering of capped brood. So I robbed a frame of open brood from #1804 and installed it. As the week progressed, I saw a noticeable uptick in the amount of incoming pollen and was satisfied they were busy rearing a new queen. This afternoon I decided to prove my suspicion and was surprised there were no queen cells and fresh eggs laid. So they were queenright after all.

3.	The ‘bee tree’- I am glad I was not tempted to take more resources from the ‘bee tree’ this spring as it seems they are struggling to rebuild their vigor after the start I took from them. Made a mental note that one’s window for opportunity to take a start and still leave the parent colony in good stead is likely narrow, especially in the situation where you cannot augment the parent colony with supplemental feeding.

4.	#1804- When I stole a frame of brood I looked things over fairly well and I continue to be surprised that this colony has not decided to supercede this queen. Her laying pattern still appears to be a bit spotty and I observed several cells with two eggs laid in them. That said, the population looks good, their mite drop remains low and they are satisfying the only selection criteria that I currently have in my yard so I continue to simply observe.


----------



## gww

russ
Did I miss something or did earlier in this thread a discussion take place where you may have actually got the queen from the tree? I could have reread the thread and don't trust my memory but was too lazy. 
Thanks for the report. I do have slatted racks in all my hives.
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> russ
> Did I miss something or did earlier in this thread a discussion take place where you may have actually got the queen from the tree? I could have reread the thread and don't trust my memory but was too lazy.
> Thanks for the report. I do have slatted racks in all my hives.
> gww


GWW:

Thank you for your reply. You are right that I am of the opinion that I got a queen from the 'bee tree'. Whether it was the only queen or not, I don't know but the relocated colony exhibited capped brood before it was mathematically possible to have reared a queen from an egg.

I read the recent slatted rack discussion and saw you used them- have you noticed increased SHB pressure as a result?

Also, I saw you were extracting today- how did your yield compare with past years?

I always enjoy your input and humility.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> A few recent random observations:
> 
> 1.	Slatted racks do appear to reduce bearding- While it is anecdotal, we are now firmly in the heat of summer here and the Langstroth hives with slatted racks appear to exhibit much less bearding. Conversely, the Warre hives appear to exhibit much more bearding (see attached). I have also noted that bees do appear to congregate in the ‘vestibule’ between the bottom of the slatted rack and the bottom board. What remains to be seen is whether slatted racks impart a negative feature in controlling hive beetles. I do not consider this year a test of this theory as the SHB’s have been noticeably absent here.
> 
> 2.	No fresh eggs does not mean a hive is queenless- I have been concerned of late at the lack of incoming pollen and the slow nature of build-up of #1911. On Wednesday (6.26), I did a deep inspection and was convinced they had recently lost their queen as there were no fresh eggs and only a smattering of capped brood. So I robbed a frame of open brood from #1804 and installed it. As the week progressed, I saw a noticeable uptick in the amount of incoming pollen and was satisfied they were busy rearing a new queen. This afternoon I decided to prove my suspicion and was surprised there were no queen cells and fresh eggs laid. So they were queenright after all.
> 
> 3.	The ‘bee tree’- I am glad I was not tempted to take more resources from the ‘bee tree’ this spring as it seems they are struggling to rebuild their vigor after the start I took from them. Made a mental note that one’s window for opportunity to take a start and still leave the parent colony in good stead is likely narrow, especially in the situation where you cannot augment the parent colony with supplemental feeding.
> 
> 4.	#1804- When I stole a frame of brood I looked things over fairly well and I continue to be surprised that this colony has not decided to supercede this queen. Her laying pattern still appears to be a bit spotty and I observed several cells with two eggs laid in them. That said, the population looks good, their mite drop remains low and they are satisfying the only selection criteria that I currently have in my yard so I continue to simply observe.
> 
> View attachment 49761
> View attachment 49763
> View attachment 49765
> View attachment 49767


Wow Russ the first 2 pics have some serious bearding going on. Is that typical or is it very hot there? let us know if these 2 hives swarm.
Some kinds of bees , Russians in particular, will stop and start laying if there is a local dearth, or they want space to pile in the nectar. And yes it can make you wonder if they are queen less, been there several times.
GG


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## gww

russ
I always have a few shb but the bees seem to keep them cornered.

My honey harvest was less. I got a little over 6 gal this year and got ten gal last year. It might be over or they may put another gal or two in the supers. I did sell some bees which was a first for me. 

Extracting is hard work in my mind. My wife does 2/3rd more work then me and it still takes 8/9 hours and wears me out. I am glad the stuff is in the bucket and not in the hive now.

If those boxes in your pictures are full, look like you could do some of the hard work of extracting also. If you crush and strain on the warres, it has to be easier then spinning frames.

Good luck
gww


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Wow Russ the first 2 pics have some serious bearding going on. Is that typical or is it very hot there? let us know if these 2 hives swarm.
> Some kinds of bees , Russians in particular, will stop and start laying if there is a local dearth, or they want space to pile in the nectar. And yes it can make you wonder if they are queen less, been there several times.
> GG


Gray Goose:

Thank you for your reply. It has been hot here, but not yet nearing our summer peak temperatures. Our weather recently has been patterned by unsettled stormy weather with daytime highs near 90 degrees F and high relative humidity. In other words, hot and muggy with brief interruptions by thunderstorms. 

This excessive bearding seems to be constrained to the Warre hives- ironically the two worst (#1902 and #1908) are in full shade in the afternoon.

I did observe brood breaks in both hived swarms last year during the summer dearth, but not to the extent that there was not an egg to be seen as observed in #1911. I suppose it could be that depending upon when one looks this would be more common than I expect such that maybe the colony has the queen quit laying for a few days, pick up for a few days, etc.?

Thanks again for your feedback, and I sincerely hope that you and your family have a great Independence Day.

Russ


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> russ
> I always have a few shb but the bees seem to keep them cornered.
> 
> My honey harvest was less. I got a little over 6 gal this year and got ten gal last year. It might be over or they may put another gal or two in the supers. I did sell some bees which was a first for me.
> 
> Extracting is hard work in my mind. My wife does 2/3rd more work then me and it still takes 8/9 hours and wears me out. I am glad the stuff is in the bucket and not in the hive now.
> 
> If those boxes in your pictures are full, look like you could do some of the hard work of extracting also. If you crush and strain on the warres, it has to be easier then spinning frames.
> 
> Good luck
> gww


GWW:

Thank you for your reply- I am glad to hear that the slatted racks have not proven to be too problematic for you with SHB's. It seems that absent this issue, there would be very little downside to their use, and quite possibly some gain- at least in terms of brood comb efficiency and bearding-reduction (if this confers a benefit).

It sounds to me like you 'married up' (like I did) and I am glad to hear your apiary is doing so well that you can sell off stock. Every experienced commercial beekeeper I have talked to in my region has advised me that if I want to make beekeeping a business, it is imperative that I get good at raising (and selling) bees along with honey.

So I might be thinking about this all wrong, but my thought right now is to leave these 3 and 4 deep Warre colonies alone and not disturb them (unless there is an obvious problem) nor harvest honey off of them but to utilize them as 'genetic resource' hives that are allowed to swarm naturally and supply genetic material to the neighborhood and to my production hives. Maybe there would be some room for a little surplus honey taking in this plan too...

I notice that the long-range forecast for us (and especially you) is that this summer will remain cooler and wetter than average, so here's hoping you get another few gallons of surplus before it is time to close-out.

Thank you again for your reply, and I sincerely hope you and your family have a great 4th of July celebration.

Russ


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## BigBlackBirds

the brood breaks can be very common but its a function of genetics. its at the core of environmental regulation. some colonies don't respond (to either changes in pollen or nectar availability) at all while others will shut down completely. fortunately there's a bunch of in between options and finding that line between the extremes is always what i'm interested in


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## gww

russ


> I notice that the long-range forecast for us (and especially you) is that this summer will remain cooler and wetter than average, so here's hoping you get another few gallons of surplus before it is time to close-out.


I did marry up. The year has been amazing as far as not getting so hot starting early in june. I am not complaining about that at all. I did notice that there is not so much out there that the bees were uninterested in what I was stealing from them. I got stung probably 5 times trying to clear the frames of bees. 


I do still have some white yard clover (dutch?) blooming in my yard and I don't remember this being the same this late in the hot dry years and so I still have a little hope that the bees can at least take care of themselves and if a bonus of extra happens, great. 

Have a great holiday.
gww


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Gray Goose:
> 
> Thank you for your reply. It has been hot here, but not yet nearing our summer peak temperatures. Our weather recently has been patterned by unsettled stormy weather with daytime highs near 90 degrees F and high relative humidity. In other words, hot and muggy with brief interruptions by thunderstorms.
> 
> This excessive bearding seems to be constrained to the Warre hives- ironically the two worst (#1902 and #1908) are in full shade in the afternoon.
> 
> I did observe brood breaks in both hived swarms last year during the summer dearth, but not to the extent that there was not an egg to be seen as observed in #1911. I suppose it could be that depending upon when one looks this would be more common than I expect such that maybe the colony has the queen quit laying for a few days, pick up for a few days, etc.?
> 
> Thanks again for your feedback, and I sincerely hope that you and your family have a great Independence Day.
> 
> Russ


Russ, you "could" crack the lid and place a 3/8 x 3/8 stick on 2 opposite edges of the top , put the lid back on the hive and the heat will rise up and out, Chimney effect. I sometimes do that to assist with cooling. 16 inch for the end or 20 inch or so for the sides of the Lang hives. Although the Hive heater folks claim the heat messes with Varoa so who knows. On my hives when I see bearding like that ,,"Swarm" is soon to follow. Have your bait hives ready  extra shot of swarm commander. By the looks of it you will need a 2 deep Ware bait hive to hold the swarm, 1/2 will leave so it may be a biggie 

in the 80's hot and humid here.
Have a great Independence day as well.
GG


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## Litsinger

BigBlackBirds said:


> the brood breaks can be very common but its a function of genetics. its at the core of environmental regulation. some colonies don't respond (to either changes in pollen or nectar availability) at all while others will shut down completely. fortunately there's a bunch of in between options and finding that line between the extremes is always what i'm interested in


Great point, BBB. While I can see how either extreme might confer some benefit in some years, it makes sense to me that the colony that tracks closer to the mean in terms of nominal forage availability year-over-year is best positioned for sustainable success.

Thank you for your feedback. I sincerely hope you and your family have a happy and safe Independence Day.

Russ


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I do still have some white yard clover (dutch?) blooming in my yard and I don't remember this being the same this late in the hot dry years and so I still have a little hope that the bees can at least take care of themselves and if a bonus of extra happens, great.
> 
> Have a great holiday.
> gww


Same here, GWW. In fact, I did not see the bees work the early clover very hard this year but they are definitely interested in it now- though they don't seem to be translating this foraging into new comb building here so I imagine they are (in general) working on back-filling the nest.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Russ, you "could" crack the lid and place a 3/8 x 3/8 stick on 2 opposite edges of the top , put the lid back on the hive and the heat will rise up and out, Chimney effect. I sometimes do that to assist with cooling. 16 inch for the end or 20 inch or so for the sides of the Lang hives. Although the Hive heater folks claim the heat messes with Varoa so who knows. On my hives when I see bearding like that ,,"Swarm" is soon to follow. Have your bait hives ready  extra shot of swarm commander. By the looks of it you will need a 2 deep Ware bait hive to hold the swarm, 1/2 will leave so it may be a biggie
> 
> in the 80's hot and humid here.
> Have a great Independence day as well.
> GG


Thanks, GG. I appreciate the advice. I propped the lids on the Langstroth hives last year and they seemed to appreciate it, so it makes sense that I ought to consider this for the Warre hives. Given they have a solid inner cover with no communication hole in them, will propping up the inner cover as well invite unwanted attention from other colonies?

I have considered late swarms from these hives, and did clean-out and re-prime my empty traps- thus far zero scout activity.

Typically, we have such a deep dearth here that summer swarms are rare- that said, the frequent rains and cooler temperatures have lead to a more extended period of early summer foraging that is not typically available here so maybe the bearding is a reflection of this. I imagine this is closer to what is typical for you as I understand you all don't really have a true nectar dearth in the summer?


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Thanks, GG. I appreciate the advice. I propped the lids on the Langstroth hives last year and they seemed to appreciate it, so it makes sense that I ought to consider this for the Warre hives. Given they have a solid inner cover with no communication hole in them, will propping up the inner cover as well invite unwanted attention from other colonies?
> 
> I have considered late swarms from these hives, and did clean-out and re-prime my empty traps- thus far zero scout activity.
> 
> Typically, we have such a deep dearth here that summer swarms are rare- that said, the frequent rains and cooler temperatures have lead to a more extended period of early summer foraging that is not typically available here so maybe the bearding is a reflection of this. I imagine this is closer to what is typical for you as I understand you all don't really have a true nectar dearth in the summer?


Russ, My hives have the hole in the center to allow bees and air to come out. So if you cannot remove the solid cover to use a cover with a hole, minimal heat will emerge, some will. as far as critters , with out bees yes some type of bugs will like the nice warm dry place. again my covers have holes, so the bees use it as an upper entrance and heat can come up. May be worth looking into making a "summer" cover with some holes in it for air flow. let us know how it goes.

good you have the re -prime covered.

here we are on the tail of yellow clover just starting the tall White clover as well all the Hay is about to bloom, so the flow is "starting" there is a small dearth just before the Golden Rod but most of the nice days have nectar to collect somewhere. I did not consider but in a dearth the bees may just "hang out" so that could be it. If they always do this then for you it is normal. For me I would worry a bit if that many bees were on the outside, local is always the difference.
GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> May be worth looking into making a "summer" cover with some holes in it for air flow. let us know how it goes.


This is a good idea, GG. I'll have to put some thought into this, but doesn't seem like it would be too hard to port out some holes in spare inner covers and possibly put screen wire over them. 



Gray Goose said:


> I did not consider but in a dearth the bees may just "hang out" so that could be it. If they always do this then for you it is normal. For me I would worry a bit if that many bees were on the outside, local is always the difference.


I've certainly learned that while bees generally follow a seasonal calendar and you can generally infer based on colony behavior and timing what is going on, that you can't take that to the bank either. Might be worth me tipping back a few of the upper hive bodies to see if any swarm cells can be observed that way I'm not assuming anything.


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## Litsinger

On another forum I follow, someone posted a link to one of Mr. Kirk Webster’s recent essays entitled, _‘The Limitations of Science; the Wisdom of Indigenous People; and the Farmers Who Live in Between’_:

https://kirkwebster.com/the-limitat...s-people-and-the-farmers-who-live-in-between/

As typical for his writing, it is alternatingly critical and accommodating- the points he made (IMHO) most applicable to TF apiary development and evaluation included:

Regarding adopting an ethos of biodiversity-

_These agrarians_ [of antiquity] _had no other way to succeed than by helping their farms encompass more life and diversity year by year; while at the same time remaining comfortable surrounded by countless mysteries they knew they would never solve.

Every real farm is a compact between Nature and the farm family, and no two of them are the same. Each one starts with a unique location, and reflects the farmer’s own creative genius. They have a long history, and they all hope to extend into future generations.

… successful organic farmers as the best source of the advice, knowledge and wisdom we need to solve our problems of health and biology. The people who spend the best part of their lives with, and depend entirely for their livelihood on an intimate association with their crops, livestock, and the larger environment, are our best examples and should be leaders who are given a fair “crack at the whip”._

Regarding defining success in a TF apiary-

Directly quoted from his journal- _“Scientists come here, and take pride in pointing out a case of european foulbrood, or that not all the colonies in my cell-building yard have survived the winter. Based on a few such observations they are happy to conclude that my plan is marginal or failing and is not worthy of others’ attention. But by relying on such specific observations, they have no clue of the comprehensive whole… The apiary experiences a constant ebb and flow of an infinite number of factors. A european foulbrood epidemic may or may not be starting; which may or may not steer my attention and actions in a new or changed direction at some point. A casual visitor might notice a sign of something to come… But they can’t notice the absence of even a single case of american foulbrood over six or seven years, or the presence of only ten or less cases over thirty years–despite being surrounded by apiaries with a history of american foulbrood. Whatever process is at work here has unknowable ramifications in infinite directions…

All I can do is point out that the apiary has supported itself and its employee (myself) for many years; with constantly growing income and leisure; paid for my home, workshop, vehicles; and is now paying for the development of an eighty acre farm…all this from not trying to accumulate or prove anything–just always trying to find the best configuration for the bees to have their own natural health and resilience.”_

In summary-

_*The purpose of this essay is to show where there is still hope*. From my own work and passion for honeybees, I know that while half of the colonies in the U.S. are transported thousands of miles on modern trucks, and then treated with all kinds of special foods and drugs to counteract all the stress we impose on them, there are still places in the world where beekeeping and honey hunting are still carried out exactly as they were depicted on cave walls and Egyptian tombs thousands of years ago. The bees in these primitive beekeeping systems are self-regulating, and do not depend on inputs or manipulation from us. *In between the modern and “primitive” beekeeping are a few people like myself who have tried to combine elements of both systems into something that is productive, resilient, and suited to our time and place*._


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> This is a good idea, GG. I'll have to put some thought into this, but doesn't seem like it would be too hard to port out some holes in spare inner covers and possibly put screen wire over them.
> 
> 
> 
> I've certainly learned that while bees generally follow a seasonal calendar and you can generally infer based on colony behavior and timing what is going on, that you can't take that to the bank either. Might be worth me tipping back a few of the upper hive bodies to see if any swarm cells can be observed that way I'm not assuming anything.

















Russ here is a couple PICs of the inner covers I have made. Basically a 3/4 x3/4 piece of pine, set the saw 1/4 inch into the wood a little off set from center like 2/3 of a saw blade. run it thru spin it around run it again to make a wider slot. Glue in a piece of thin ply and done. The cooler temp dump sugar on, in the spring, ones, have the 2 3/4 inch holes. The one with the middle missing is an enigma. It was an accident but is now the best design I have. I basically ran out of materials and "pieced" the last one together with 2- 8 inch or so strips. I did not think it would work but it works great. I can pop the lid see the bees and how many seems and if they need room with out removing the "cover" as well in the heat with the top lid propped up good air flow happens. The screw up one has become the pattern. 
GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> The screw up one has become the pattern.


GG:

Great feedback and very helpful photos. So what you are saying is that you had a 'happy accident'?

Based on the photo, I assume you are not installing screening over the open section in your summer covers?

This 'open' approach is one of the reasons (as you noted) I have really liked utilizing screened inner covers on the Langstroth hives- it affords you the opportunity to take a quick peek inside from the top without causing undue disruption.

Thanks again for the helpful input. I appreciate it.

Here's hoping you and your family have an enjoyable and safe Independence Day.

Russ


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## gww

russ
To the kirk webster post:
This is one of the reasons that I always think that worrying about controlling others around you can be a waste of time. Getting big droves of people to come together to legislate rules? I do believe that any action can affect others but the hard part is always, how do you prove who's way is the right way? How do you prove out you are helping and not just tamping down on some one? With the word success being a subjective term, then defining success depends on what it means to the person doing the work. You can not do anything with out possibly affecting others as well. Perhaps lines have to be drawn but then again, who gets to draw those lines?

I have always believed that dealing with anything living is going to have ebs and flows that come and go and will require adjustments in real time and then time to see effects of adjustment. 

Then there are fair share arguments. What is my fair share of 8,000 acres? Is first come first served a fair rule? Is the will to be the one to put the effort in the deciding factor? Should it be based on who is most efficient in the use of the resource earns the right to use it the most?

Then there is foot print in the big picture and a discussion can be had on each operators foot prints and the effect on those around them and it is an a discussion that no operator can work with out being found in some kind of fault in the effect they may have on others. The backyard mite bomb argument compared to commercial number of bee problems as an example.

I pretty much have my own golden rule of sorts in all this that I think sorta aligns with kirks writings. I am very resistant to authority being exercised over me. I like people that have my best interest at heart but retain final say based on work to result obtained. I would rather help others if I can and they want the help. I should watch my own stuff knowing that the outside of my stuff will ebb and flow and pretty much align out where it does on its own eventually.
My portion of goobly gok dished out for today.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> My portion of goobly gok dished out for today.


GWW:

I enjoyed reading your 'gobbledygook' and philosophically-align with much of what you said.

Ultimately, I try to follow the 'Golden Rule' as it relates to my interaction others and to pragmatically seek the most 'natural' way to maintain my farm/apiary under the idea that I am more a land and resource steward than an owner.

I always appreciate your posts, and I sincerely hope you and your family have an enjoyable and safe Independence Day.

Russ


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## Litsinger

As a follow-up to the bearding evaluation of earlier in the week, today's high of 91 degrees F had all five (5) Warre colonies bearding at some level (photos attached in order of increasing bearding taken at approximately 7:15 p.m. local time) while none of the six (6) Langstroth colonies with slatted racks were. Not sure it matters one way or the other, but it is interesting to observe the difference.


----------



## Litsinger

Over the past couple of weeks, I have been considering again the concept of systematic comb renewal in a ‘by the box’ paradigm.

As mentioned here previously, I endeavored (with little success) this year to apply the concept of ‘nadiring’ to a few hives to see if one might consistently move boxes ‘up-and-out’ on a defined rotation.

In actuality, the tested colonies showed little interest in drawing out comb below the brood nest but seemed quite content to draw out comb above it- at least in Langstroth hive set-ups in my locale.

In considering this dilemma out loud here on this forum, both GWW and GregV admonished me that I might want to consider moving boxes ‘down-and-out’ instead, so I’ve been rolling this idea around in my head.

While the attached photo is strictly a thought experiment, I wonder if anyone sees any fatal flaws in this idea, at least from a conceptual standpoint?
Some assumptions are in order:

1.	I assumed the use of all eight-frame medium Langstroth boxes without queen excluders, allowing one to interchange brood rearing and honey storage functions based on a box’s position within the stack.

2.	I assumed that the typical colony could produce the equivalent of one eight-frame medium box of wax and one eight-frame medium box of surplus honey stored in previously drawn comb in a typical year. For reference the average honey yield in Kentucky stands at 40-50# per colony, so my assumption is already rather aggressive.

3.	I assumed that a founder colony would be supplied ‘seed’ surplus in the first year to both help promote overwintering success and set one up for year two manipulations.

4.	(Big Assumption)- I assumed that the colony will typically cluster in the top box.

Those assumptions aside, the typical moves would look like this:

Year One- Colony is left to progress normally, expecting to draw out 2-1/2 to 3 boxes of comb. Following the fall flow, an additional box of stores is applied on top (or the colony is fed generously through the year to yield the same result) to get to the equivalent of four eight frame medium boxes. One could probably get by with three boxes here in my climate, but it would leave you little margin for error/spring manipulations.

Year Two-The top two boxes are moved down the stack early in the season (in conjunction with Checkerboarding - not required), upon which the previous bottom two boxes are moved to above the previous top two boxes. As the season progresses, a box or boxes is/are added in directly above the working level of the brood nest while working the oldest box(es) up-and-out through the honey supers.

Years Three thru Six- The process described in Year Two is repeated, working the oldest box(es) up-and-out.

Assuming a colony is continuously occupied, one could conceivably rotate out all comb in a whole-box approach every five years.

I concede that there are myriad issues/contingencies which would likely emerge preventing one from applying this in ‘textbook’ fashion year-over-year, but I thought it might be a good starting basis to reconsider the idea of systematic comb renewal. 

Anyone care to poke holes in this concept? I invite constructive criticism.


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## Gray Goose

"Assuming a colony is continuously occupied, one could conceivably rotate out all comb in a whole-box approach every five years."

Ok Maybe I missed it , But WHY are you moving out 1/5 of the comb each year?

Did you test 6 year old comb to find excess. ? pesticides?

I am just curious?

GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Maybe I missed it , But WHY are you moving out 1/5 of the comb each year?


Fair question, GG. 

To clarify, I have not had any specific pathogen or pesticide concern that has prompted me to consider comb renewal. 

I became intrigued by the idea when reading the thoughts of Abbe Warre and others who suggest that newer comb may help promote colony health.

This idea has taken on increased focus as I have watched SP's struggles unfold, and on a very practical level it seems I never have enough drawn comb around- so it seems prudent to have a strategy that at least has one in an intentional comb building mode every year.

The only contemporary I have found who seems to be employing such a method and is speaking about it is Mr. Tim Rowe:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhAXj-vNqBVlxEZIAjNqj2mYGgIeNEzTu


----------



## squarepeg

i believe fusion_power mentioned in a previous post that brother adam was also a proponent of rotating old comb out.


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## GregB

I think the whole idea of "moving the old comb" out was predisposed on the desire to have a bigger bee - the same old "bigger bee is a better bee" idea.
Obviously, the cells reduce in size gradually.
My old-school Dad always taught me how the black combs meant smaller bees - and that must be bad.
In this respect I ignore the advice of the oldies (no matter how respected, be it Brother Adams and all).

Bees are perfectly capable of destroying overly old and unfit combs and will do so.
So why should we worry about yet another non-issue?
Is the old, black comb really bad? 

I don't think so (unless systematically polluted by in-hive treatments).
Any pollution incoming from the outside is in minute amounts and everywhere as it is - like in your own fridge (unless the bees systematically harvest the polluted nectar/pollen - commercial almond orchards come to mind).

With that, I personally ignore this "comb rotation requirement" thing and only destroy old combs by C&S honey harvest if they are of poor and unfit quality for various reasons.
If destroying old combs, might as well fill the combs with the honey, before destroying them.

Perga harvest also requires comb destruction - so I will do that. 
Some of the combs are so plugged-up with old perga, they are essentially useless and a liability and are good to destroy (while harvesting).

The harvest creates enough of comb rotation opportunities as-is.
Otherwise, traps are always in need of old, black combs too (of the worst quality too - does not matter how bad these are - they smell the same).
I could always use more of that stuff.

Specifically destroying old combs under no-chem management just because the oldies thought "black combs are bad" - is a resource waste in my operation.


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## gww

I probably will not be getting rid of old comb unless doing so makes something easier for me to get honey out. I did make some decisions on how to get the comb where I wanted it so that it would be the natural comb in the location that if I decided I wanted to, it would be the easiest comb to destroy first. 

I have no real plans now of getting rid of comb. I am more just looking and listening on the subject.
Cheers
gww


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Fair question, GG.
> 
> To clarify, I have not had any specific pathogen or pesticide concern that has prompted me to consider comb renewal.
> 
> I became intrigued by the idea when reading the thoughts of Abbe Warre and others who suggest that newer comb may help promote colony health.
> 
> This idea has taken on increased focus as I have watched SP's struggles unfold, and on a very practical level it seems I never have enough drawn comb around- so it seems prudent to have a strategy that at least has one in an intentional comb building mode every year.
> 
> The only contemporary I have found who seems to be employing such a method and is speaking about it is Mr. Tim Rowe:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhAXj-vNqBVlxEZIAjNqj2mYGgIeNEzTu


Russ,

Ok Just needed to confirm. bottom line "let me know if your bees are heather over time" Are you doing a couple "control" hives of no rotation? that way in 10 years after lots of hours and resources, you can determine if it was worth it. As well, less frames and less time for the 1/2 apiary test than the full Monty. And you have some bees to "recover" from

2 Things for me and my opinion
the last 10 or so combs I "culled" were either dark or lots of drone. By Dark I mean Black and heavy.
1) As a resource, I resisted to toss or destroy them, So they went into Decoy hives, All now have bees on due to those were the ones the bees swarmed into.
2) Sorry to use and old saying, but 1000 years ago, I presume the rotation did not happen to the bees, and the 100,000 before that either. So IMO this is a misunderstood realm.

I am actually looking at a test the other way. Michael Bush states in one of his links, or Utubes, that there are 800 different "things" living in a bee hive.
When bees swarm one thing they cannot bring with them is the 650 or so critters living in Harmony with them. They can bring a few on feet and in guts but for the most part they leave the Micro BIOM behind them. So the swarms I catch on old comb, seem to do good, and I have had better luck with NUCs as apposed to Packages. When I put packages on Foundation they struggle. Sealy states in one of his speeches that swarms only have 50% chance of making the winter. When I put packages on comb with some honey and some pollen, the Packages do much better. I have extrapolated a bit and filled in some blanks but here is my belief.

The Biom is a big part of bees health , just like the flora in Our Guts is a big part of our health. In A perfect world, the comb contains many/most of the critters to get the bees ramped up to the happy place where they are in Harmony with the other critters and themselves.

As the bees never evolved with a comb swapper in the tree tops, I am of the opinion that the only places where this would even have chance of being a good idea is in areas where the "locals" weather,, it's the golf courses or County, or City, or farmers, Spray lots of "funny Bossiness" into the environment. Then there could be a build up.

I actually think the old comb has value to jump start packages or swarms with some Micro BIOM stuff.

What I would call a place needing comb swapped out to "help the Bees" Is a BAD Apiary site.

thanks for the opportunity to take the other side of the coin. May and should and could do not move me off the dime like it used to.
GG


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Russ,
> ..... it's the golf courses or County, or City, or farmers, Spray lots of "funny Bossiness" into the environment. Then there could be a build up...
> GG


Agree with GG, hands down.

One thing about the most polluted locations - bees largely avoid them anyway.
There is nothing for the bees in a commercial corn field or a pretty green golf club or a picture perfect front lawn.
Those gulf clubs are terrible (I used to work in one very long ago) - lucky for the bees, most all useful "weeds" are killed off around there.

Bees will go into the most scrappy looking weeds (fortunately, not poisoned), preserved prairies, and the trees for the foraging - the pollutants are not present there (not significantly so anyway, to loose my sleep over).

One concern would be - when you pollinate commercial orchards - but this is not a concern for most folks in this particular sub-forum.
Another concern could be - sweet clover pastures by the polluted road-sides; we have lots of those (but not very close to my bees, so I don't worry too much).


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## Litsinger

Gents:

I sincerely appreciate all your helpful feedback, and for me this is not a 'right or wrong way' issue but rather something I am considering as a means to have a plan in-place to systematically renew comb in the event it becomes plain that this is a prudent course of action in my specific setting.

More specifically:



squarepeg said:


> i believe fusion_power mentioned in a previous post that brother adam was also a proponent of rotating old comb out.


I can understand and appreciate that our beekeeping forefathers were not perfect and subject to the same biases that we are. That said, their philosophies and methods have the advantage of undergoing scrutiny for several generations to remain as trusted (though not perfect) references. So while I continue to read and study the important efforts of luminaries on our own time, I for my part think it prudent to continue to tip the scales a bit in favor of the 'old-timers' in terms of bee management, with all due disclaimers and caveats duly noted.



GregV said:


> So why should we worry about yet another non-issue?
> Is the old, black comb really bad?
> 
> Specifically destroying old combs under no-chem management just because the oldies thought "black combs are bad" - is a resource waste in my operation.


Greg V:

I respect this position, and ultimately may acquiesce to this camp philosophically based on what I observe here. I am not coming at this from the position that old comb is bad necessarily, but rather from a two-fold consideration:

1. I want to be intentional about making new comb annually, for the myriad issues that might arise. This could include pathogen and/or pesticide build-up, but might be a simple desire to give nucs or hived swarms a better start (as GG wisely observed) or to simply have plenty of drawn comb resources on-hand for the eventualities of comb loss due to wax moths, extractor blow-outs, etc.

2. It seems (anecdotal as it may be) that swarms in particular may not avoid comb which is pathogen contaminated when looking for a new home. A video posted by ODFrank is seared in my mind of a swarm that took up residence in a stack of EFB-infected comb he had: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvR0ybmcs1A&t=3s

So, ultimately I am not coming at this from a negative perspective of old comb, but rather seeing it as a potential opportunity for new comb and an investment in an ounce of prevention at the cost of a fair amount of surplus honey production.



gww said:


> I did make some decisions on how to get the comb where I wanted it so that it would be the natural comb in the location that if I decided I wanted to, it would be the easiest comb to destroy first.


GWW:

This is where I am at- whether I ever intentionally destroy old comb over time remains to be seen, but I at least want to have a plan in place that affords the opportunity to do so should the need arise or it serves to further my beekeeping goals (i.e. I decide I want to be a chandler too ).



Gray Goose said:


> bottom line "let me know if your bees are heather over time...''


GG:

Great response, and I am definitely aligned with your thoughts that the microbe environment within a hive is generally a part (little understood that it is) of overall colony health, so I concede that comb renewal may seek to counteract some of this benefit. That said, it seems reasonable to me that if I am only ever renewing some reasonable percentage (i.e. 1/6th) of the comb year over year, I might be able to have my proverbial cake and eat it too?

I also think your advice to beta test comb renewal before applying it yard-wide is a wise idea- as you astutely point out, the goal would be healthier bees over time, or at least as healthy bees with the side benefit of extra comb for purposes dictated by the beekeeper.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Another concern could be - sweet clover pastures by the polluted road-sides; we have lots of those (but not very close to my bees, so I don't worry too much).


GregV:

Great points, and no arguments here. While it is a small data point, I do know that bees will work clover that has been sprayed with Glyphosate, as I have observed this in my own yard (long story).

So (as previously noted) while my focus on comb renewal is not chemical build-up in the wax per se, I see that this could be a side benefit to periodic comb renewal.

I do appreciate your input (as always). I like that you are able to see outside the box (which is not something that I feel particularly gifted at). So, many of your thoughts and projects help me to consider what I am doing with fresh perspective.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> .....
> 1. I want to be intentional about making new comb annually,....


A very valid point.

I so far found that the main ways to generate new combs for me is:

1) the fly-back splits with most all existing combs taken away 
-- the existing combs just drift into the nucs (which initially lack the labor force to build much)
-- case by case, of course, but the bees generally get into the comb-building mode
-- this season I have done two of these (as a part of mid-summer expansion project)
-- one fly-back resource exceeded my expectations so far - great builders; 
-- the other fly-back resource is performing below my expectations - these prefer to "fatten-up" the existing guide-combs and leave the checker-boarded blanks - blanks.

2) swarms
- the big prime-swarm I mostly placed in to the drawn combs this season, however; somewhat wasted the comb-building potential;
- instead, hoping for some honey crop, gave them as much comb as I thought was reasonable so to be ready for the basswood flow - the result is to be seen yet)


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## Gray Goose

Great response, and I am definitely aligned with your thoughts that the microbe environment within a hive is generally a part (little understood that it is) of overall colony health, so I concede that comb renewal may seek to counteract some of this benefit. That said, it seems reasonable to me that if I am only ever renewing some reasonable percentage (i.e. 1/6th) of the comb year over year, I might be able to have my proverbial cake and eat it too?

I would agree 1/6th of the comb removed is not going to impact much. A Split is 50% and I still think each 1/2 would have a good dose of Microbes


I do appreciate your input (as always). I like that you are able to see outside the box (which is not something that I feel particularly gifted at). So, many of your thoughts and projects help me to consider what I am doing with fresh perspective.

What Box, there is a box, I never Noticed. 
Kidding aside, I tend to spend most of my thought time on the reason to do or not do. the doing is rather just turn the crank. I never have had a moment where I synapsed the thought " these bees are dying due to this old comb" I have more than once thought " good thing I had this old comb , what a head start these bees will have. If the goal resolves to "I would like to have a comb bank" then I 100% agree. I "HAD" over 100 combs this spring. 60 with honey and/or pollen, I have used them up and feathered in 20 frames of foundation, 1 or 2 in every deep. I have had 11 Decoys out, made up 10 NUCs, caught 5 swarms, this season, mainly on the resources in the "Comb Bank" I wanted to make sure you were not pitching them in the dumpster on some article you read. Combs have value, few understand All the value, IMO
GG


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## gww

I would add one caveat to the comb thing. I think it is almost a universal position that if pollen is seen capped over in comb that that comb is contaminated and should be discarded or at least the pollen area cut out. Of course many times I inspect but don't really see and could easily miss things like the above even if I should be noticing them.

There are times when common sense says something is out of ordinary enough that the question of action is not as hard of a choice compared to the rest of the decisions we might need to think harder on.
Cheers
gww

Ps Any comb I might destroy in the close future will probably be due to poor (sloppiness) storage or pest helping me with the decision.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> A very valid point.
> 
> I so far found that the main ways to generate new combs for me is:
> 
> 1) ...fly-back splits...
> 
> 2) swarms


Great point, GregV. One aspect I have considered (but not deeply) is that swarms (artificial or natural) are ideal comb building machines because of their natural instinct to do so. We am somewhat trying to swim upstream, so to speak when we ask established colonies to draw out copious amounts of new comb.

As such, your point is well-taken that one should not neglect (and maybe lean more heavily on) splits and swarms for excess comb generation.

Thank you for the input!


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I tend to spend most of my thought time on the reason to do or not do. the doing is rather just turn the crank. I never have had a moment where I synapsed the thought " these bees are dying due to this old comb" I have more than once thought " good thing I had this old comb , what a head start these bees will have.


GG:

This is one of the things I appreciate about your replies- it is obvious that you have thought deeply about many of these issues and thus your feedback is well-reasoned. Makes me wish that you had your own thread here on the 'Treatment Free' forum where you posted your thoughts and goings-on (hint, hint).

One thing I failed to mention in my previous reply to your point about the biological symbiosis in a natural setting is the intimation by Dr. Seeley in his 'Darwinian Beekeeping' model that one of the keys to feral colony success is the periodic evacuation of cavities via swarming and subsequent demise of the mother colony for the ants, wax moths etc to 'clean up' the cavity for subsequent occupants. Per the _'Bees in Trees'_ article from Bee Culture (https://www.beeculture.com/bees-in-trees/):

_"Bees in tree hollows do not normally construct their parallel combs to the bottom of the cavity so a debris area forms at the base of the hollow. It remains moist and comprised of organic nutrients, saw dust and living organisms. Within this micro-ecosystem, there are beneficial predators and microorganisms (viruses, bacteria, wax moths, etc) that may help the bees remain healthy. Since many of the cavities bees selected were small the bees often swarmed, which is their way of reproducing and also for “solving” issues like American foulbrood and bee mites."_ 

Thanks again for your input. It is most appreciated!


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I would add one caveat to the comb thing. I think it is almost a universal position that if pollen is seen capped over in comb that that comb is contaminated and should be discarded or at least the pollen area cut out. Of course many times I inspect but don't really see and could easily miss things like the above even if I should be noticing them.
> 
> There are times when common sense says something is out of ordinary enough that the question of action is not as hard of a choice compared to the rest of the decisions we might need to think harder on.
> Cheers
> gww
> 
> Ps Any comb I might destroy in the close future will probably be due to poor (sloppiness) storage or pest helping me with the decision.


GWW:

Thank you for this feedback. I for one did not know about the capped pollen, so you've already educated one more rube.

It is exactly this sloppiness- both my own actions (broken comb) and inactions (wax moth damage) that has reminded me that I will need spare comb as a matter of course if I am going to be successful in beekeeping.

I really do appreciate your input and good advice. While I am asking, I should ask you to host your own thread here on our forum. I think you have a lot of good things to say.


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## Gray Goose

gww said:


> I would add one caveat to the comb thing. I think it is almost a universal position that if pollen is seen capped over in comb that that comb is contaminated and should be discarded or at least the pollen area cut out. Of course many times I inspect but don't really see and could easily miss things like the above even if I should be noticing them.
> 
> There are times when common sense says something is out of ordinary enough that the question of action is not as hard of a choice compared to the rest of the decisions we might need to think harder on.
> Cheers
> gww
> 
> Ps Any comb I might destroy in the close future will probably be due to poor (sloppiness) storage or pest helping me with the decision.


Capped over gww, do you have a picture of this, I do not think I have seen pollen capped over.

Yes I lost 20 good combs on a decoy, it was 2 boxes in the "area" I had felt contained potential for big feral type swarms, well the bear knocked if down and ate most of the comb as it had trace amounts of pollen and honey. Down 20 in 1 day.
GG


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Great point, GregV. One aspect I have considered (but not deeply) is that swarms (artificial or natural) are ideal comb building machines because of their natural instinct to do so. We am somewhat trying to swim upstream, so to speak when we ask established colonies to draw out copious amounts of new comb.
> 
> As such, your point is well-taken that one should not neglect (and maybe lean more heavily on) splits and swarms for excess comb generation.
> 
> Thank you for the input!


For getting a lot of comb, My "method" is to wait thru winter.  with 30 combs typical on each hive 30,60,90,120 they add up fast. 8 dead outs this spring. IMO one should do some early testing for life, I pulled in 90 combs at jan 1 time frame, and the rest are in the shop before the last snow is gone. I actually gave 90 back (3 mediums) when popping the lid 3 hives were right to the top and out of stores, in March, so added the top box from a dead out on the spot.
Waiting, I loose them to mice , mold, and other natural deconstructive means. Also I extract,, so the mediums I draw in Supers, easy to get 1 medium super drawn and extracted per hive per year. I either do 2 deeps and a Medium or 1 deep and 2 mediums for the over winter stack. 1/2 mediums and 1/2 shallows for supers.
GG


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## GregB

gww said:


> I would add one caveat to the comb thing. I think it is almost a universal position that if pollen is seen capped over in comb that that comb is contaminated and should be discarded or at least the pollen area cut out. ......



It is interesting - I hardly ever seen the entombed pollen. 
Yes - I have seen it somewhere for sure.
No - this is not a common thing for me at all.

Combs mostly plugged up by usable pollen, on the other hand, is a routine.
Unsure why people make lots of fuss of the entombed pollen. 
I think it maybe a indication of a real pollution problem.
IF that, I am doing quite well.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> For getting a lot of comb, My "method" is to wait thru winter.  ......
> GG


Well, I have been doing this method quite well so far.
Generates lots of comb - best if after the first good freeze.

Harvesting my honey/pollen too using this same method - works pretty well - especially well IF they drop off by T-Giving or X-Mas.


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## GregB

You know, guys, however moldy, covered in spider nets, mined through by the moths - IF the old comb *holds its structure*, a fresh swarm will take it all and renovate even it is only if partially usable - not a problem at all.
Still a benefit.

Vividly remember how a swarm moved into a half-rotten, with pilled-off paint, leaky roof, 14-frame Dadant (full of the nasty, nasty mess after Dad lost all his bees one winter; he did not care to clean the dead hives out at that point).
Now and then some robbers and scouts would check the hive.
Well, one day we noticed them robbers bringing in pollen. 
Bees did not care a bit - a swarm took it over and cleaned the darn thing inside and out.

Anyway, this is how Dad started his second run at the beekeeping.

Recently I scored 8 boxes full of comb - lots of fermented/crystallized honey, moldy/fermented pollen, little dead brood (mites).
From a person who could not keep their bees alive through the winter.
Supposedly only OA/FA/hop-guard was used.
I know some people will scream... haha. 
Oh well.
I just gradually feed all this mess into a low-value, strong colony - have them clean all the mess - they do great at it.
So far that is the most use I got from these lazy bees anyway - cleaning the messy combs.


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## gww

Gray goose
I have not seen entombed pollen. I have never seen a dead mouse in a hive that the bees have tried to propolize over (or seen a mouse in a hive). I have read threads on here where bee keepers that handle a lot of bees like Michael palmer and jim loyn discuss finding entombed pollen and coming to the conclusion that the bees cover it for a reason Ie: poison pollen, pesticide etc. I think it is common sense that the bees move bad things from their hives and things too heavy to move they cover with propolize. Those guys have had their bees in places that are a lot more dangerous then me like orchards for pollination. So, basically, What they said in their discussions made perfect sense to me and I took it as being true and something to watch for.

Russ
This is as close to a thread of my own as I have the energy to make. It should show the reason that I try and be careful in giving any advice. I am much better in needing advice then giving it.
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...-far-somebody-save-the-day&highlight=bonehead
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> For getting a lot of comb, My "method" is to wait thru winter.  with 30 combs typical on each hive 30,60,90,120 they add up fast. 8 dead outs this spring. IMO one should do some early testing for life, I pulled in 90 combs at jan 1 time frame, and the rest are in the shop before the last snow is gone. I actually gave 90 back (3 mediums) when popping the lid 3 hives were right to the top and out of stores, in March, so added the top box from a dead out on the spot.
> Waiting, I loose them to mice , mold, and other natural deconstructive means. Also I extract,, so the mediums I draw in Supers, easy to get 1 medium super drawn and extracted per hive per year. I either do 2 deeps and a Medium or 1 deep and 2 mediums for the over winter stack. 1/2 mediums and 1/2 shallows for supers.
> GG


GG:

Good point- the 'dead-outs' do certainly give back comb for subsequent reuse, and I do appreciate your description of your overwintering set-up. In considering the idea of systematic comb renewal, my thoughts have centered on the idea of erring to the side of leaving too much stores (i.e. 4 eight-frame mediums) to proactively ward against starvation and also be positioned to Checkerboard early in the season (i.e. mid February) as a function of the box reversals.

Last winter, the surviving colonies were set-up five high and the thriving colony that overwintered at the top of the stack consumed approximately a box and half. Conversely, the micro-cluster that made it through by the skin of their teeth consumed just north of half a box.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> You know, guys, however moldy, covered in spider nets, mined through by the moths - IF the old comb *holds its structure*, a fresh swarm will take it all and renovate even it is only if partially usable - not a problem at all.


Also a good point, GregV. I have utilized this approach to good effect this year in getting some pretty badly wax moth-damaged comb from unoccupied swarm traps renovated. It really is amazing to see how they can take what is only a shadow of it's original form and make it as good as ever.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> This is as close to a thread of my own as I have the energy to make. It should show the reason that I try and be careful in giving any advice. I am much better in needing advice then giving it.
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...-far-somebody-save-the-day&highlight=bonehead
> Cheers
> gww


GWW:

As always, you are far too modest. You have offered a lot of really good advice to me, for which I am most appreciative.

I'm glad you clued me in to your thread. I am going to read through it as I have time.

Thanks again for all your help. Have a great day.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Dr. John Chambers contacted me this afternoon requesting our help in preparing his _'Four Incompatible Approaches to Bee Improvement' _presentation.

Specifically, he is looking for an article from the February 1976 edition of the _American Bee Journal_ referenced as follows:

Witherell, P.C. (1976) _A story of success -the Starline and Midnite hybrid bee breeding programs_. American Bee Journal, 116(2): pages 63-64 and page 82.

Anyone have access to this article?

Also, I tipped over a hive today while mowing with my tractor- that was an experience...


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ..... that was an experience...


Ouch!


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Ouch!


Thankfully I was only stung once as I quickly assessed the situation before donning the suit and getting them back upright.

Fingers crossed that I didn't do them any irreparable harm... I suppose time will tell. 

I sure hate it when I make stupid (and totally avoidable) mistakes. To err is human...


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## gww

russ
I have the fear of mess up every time I mow past my hives. I want to get close but not too close. That is why my hives always look a mess.
Good luck
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> russ
> I have the fear of mess up every time I mow past my hives. I want to get close but not too close. That is why my hives always look a mess.
> Good luck
> gww


Thanks, GWW. I share your sentiment, and ironically I was getting close to the hive while mowing for their 'benefit'.

Specifically, I am preparing to do a native wildflower planting this weekend and wanted to mow the Sericea down before it had the chance to flower/seed.

I am working my way through your thread and I am impressed at what a quick study you are. Sounds like you've learned a lot over a relatively short period of time.


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## gww

The lespedeza will probably be my next bloom. I have never seen the bees on the big stuff in the field but know they work the mowed short stuff that grows in my yard.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> The lespedeza will probably be my next bloom. I have never seen the bees on the big stuff in the field but know they work the mowed short stuff that grows in my yard.
> Cheers
> gww


Thanks, GWW. To clarify, I am not talking about native Lespedeza (i.e. pink/purple flower) but the evasive Asian variety with very small white flowers. While I have seen the bees work Sericea, almost every wildlife or forestry expert I have out to the farm says I will do well to keep it knocked down.

The Missouri Department of Conservation has a good write-up on it that I keep for reference:

https://mdc.mo.gov/sites/default/files/downloads/SericeaLespedeza.pdf

They say these seeds can lay dormant for 60 years!


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## gww

Russ
I would plant something else but seed is very high and for plantings to do good you need to add supplements to the dirt. I planted ladino clover about 20 years ago and spread lime and such but it only lasted one year good. I would like better ground but live with what is there. I think your planting is exciting myself and wish you the best of luck in it.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> ...but seed is very high ...


You are not kidding. Some of the native stuff has got to be worth more than it's weight in gold. My only consolation is given that it is native and the soil has been prepared following the recommendations of the experts that I should not have to do too much to maintain it in future years provided it is periodically mowed/disked. We'll see...


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I am preparing to do a native wildflower planting this weekend.


If you want a good honey bee pasture, will have to mix-in some imports though.
A lot of imports, in fact.

Here is just one great example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echium_vulgare
I meant to get some seeds of viper's bugloss this spring; then forgot and time passed.

Then of course - Phacelia - a must-have in a honey bee pasture.
Many other examples.
Canada Thistle being another great example - hehe...

So you have to make some decisions of what you really want.

OK, I just posted a good PDF from my sources - Siberian nectar producing plants.
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...nectar-producing-plants&p=1740871#post1740871


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> If you want a good honey bee pasture, will have to mix-in some imports though.
> A lot of imports, in fact.


GregV:

The Siberian nectar producing plants PDF is really neat... too bad I can't read Russian- but the pictures and Latin names do help. I saw some familiar local faces on the list- looks like geraniums, buckwheat, peonies, impatiens, stonecrop, clovers, mustard, etc...

The weekend planting is not directed toward European Honeybees per se, but is more generally focused on improving native habitat. In specific, I have spent the past year burning-down approximately five acres of fescue fields and will be replanting it generally as follows:

Two Acres (Field 1)- Conservation Cover
One Acre (Field 2)- Pollinator Habitat
Two Acres- Legumes (predominantly Ladino Clover) 

Getting these fields cleared of the evasive regrowth is what precipitated me tipping over the hive.

We'll see how this develops...


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> The Siberian nectar producing plants PDF is really neat... too bad I can't read Russian- but the pictures and Latin names do help. I saw some familiar local faces on the list- looks like geraniums, buckwheat, peonies, impatiens, stonecrop, clovers, mustard, etc...
> 
> The weekend planting is not directed toward European Honeybees per se, but is more generally focused on improving native habitat. In specific, I have spent the past year burning-down approximately five acres of fescue fields and will be replanting it generally as follows:
> 
> Two Acres (Field 1)- Conservation Cover
> One Acre (Field 2)- Pollinator Habitat
> Two Acres- Legumes (predominantly Ladino Clover)
> 
> Getting these fields cleared of the evasive regrowth is what precipitated me tipping over the hive.
> 
> We'll see how this develops...
> 
> View attachment 49983
> View attachment 49985
> View attachment 49987
> View attachment 49989
> View attachment 49991


Russ, My Plantings are Whitetail Clover, (Whitetail Institute product)  as you may surmise the priority is to deer hunt over them. If you mow 1/2 or a 1/3 on a 10 day/2 week rotation some bloom will be present for more days, almost always, than to jest leave it go. for bees white or yellow sweet clover , or better a mix, would produce a lot of nectar. It gets 2-4 feet tall, also can be mowed to get a second bloom. I have heard that Sumac has a good nectar flow so it you have some on the edges maybe promote them a bit by removing the junk trees around them.
GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ... for bees white or yellow sweet clover , or better a mix, would produce a lot of nectar. It gets 2-4 feet tall, also can be mowed to get a second bloom. I have heard that Sumac has a good nectar flow so it you have some on the edges maybe promote them a bit by removing the junk trees around them.
> GG


GG:

Thank you for your helpful reply. I don't know anything, but the experts around me say the most reliable and perennially sustainable clover is Ladino. We can (and do) grow other white varieties and red and yellow clovers but they tend to peter-out after a couple of years.

For us, clover is typically a big early season forage opportunity that fades once the heat and dry weather of summer sets-in. This year has been unique in that we continue to get timely rains and breaks in the temperature (thus far) which have allowed the clover blooms to persist longer than I can remember it in recent memory.

On our place we do have some smooth sumac, but I rarely see bees working the blooms- must be something else blooming at the same time around here that they like better.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> .... focused on improving native habitat......


Sure.

This one I would include the sweet cloves - (Field 2)- Pollinator Habitat.
Not native, but most bugs and bees will appreciate.

(Field 1)- Conservation Cover - probably must be 100% native and done; conservation it is.

Your calls and priorities, obviously.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> This one I would include the sweet cloves - (Field 2)- Pollinator Habitat.
> Not native, but most bugs and bees will appreciate..


You hit the nail on the head, Greg. The basic idea (as I am told by the experts) is to let the native grass and forbs get established. Once this is accomplished, I understand that I am to mow sections of it every other year or so, disk it once mowed to break up the thatch (and promote upland bird travel), and reseed the now opened areas (particularly the borders) with clover (and possibly partridge pea) for food plots and nectar supply.

While it remains to be seen how well it will do, the basic idea makes sense to me of trying to mimic the natural dynamic for my area while also introducing some additional legumes for a wildlife protein source (and equally important- nectar!).


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> You hit the nail on the head, Greg. The basic idea (as I am told by the experts) is to let the native grass and forbs get established. Once this is accomplished, I understand that I am to mow sections of it every other year or so, disk it once mowed to break up the thatch (and promote upland bird travel), and reseed the now opened areas (particularly the borders) with clover (and possibly partridge pea) for food plots and nectar supply.
> 
> While it remains to be seen how well it will do, the basic idea makes sense to me of trying to mimic the natural dynamic for my area while also introducing some additional legumes for a wildlife protein source (and equally important- nectar!).


Good deal.
I almost bought a 4 acre plot of land 30 miles away - for any similar projects.
Well, did not...
Instead, I have to exist as an under-ground guerilla bee-runner (tossing seed balls around in public spaces and such). 
Oh well. Life is still good.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> You hit the nail on the head, Greg. The basic idea (as I am told by the experts) is to let the native grass and forbs get established. Once this is accomplished, I understand that I am to mow sections of it every other year or so, disk it once mowed to break up the thatch (and promote upland bird travel), and reseed the now opened areas (particularly the borders) with clover (and possibly partridge pea) for food plots and nectar supply.
> 
> While it remains to be seen how well it will do, the basic idea makes sense to me of trying to mimic the natural dynamic for my area while also introducing some additional legumes for a wildlife protein source (and equally important- nectar!).


When you do the every other year discing/mow or thatch activity, try splitting the field into 4ths or 6ths width wise, 20-30 feet would work as well. Do those in the alternating years see if you like that result. most of the birds will go in 8-15 feet, so the middle is not much used, the strips offer more edges and the bees do not care. Be careful, Mowing can help some things and hurt others. I would mow late , like last of Aug. I also till strips and burn in between every 3-5 years, so lots of management to grass land if you dig in a bit. look into a Pheasants Forever chapter, sometimes you can get reduced priced seed. I would also soil test some stuff needs higher PH , or potassium. Have fun


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Instead, I have to exist as an under-ground guerrilla bee-runner (tossing seed balls around in public spaces and such).
> Oh well. Life is still good.


I am laughing out loud at this! This is a great word picture and just goes to show that bees (and beekeepers) are highly-adaptable and can be successful in many different settings. Hopefully there will be a point in the future that affords you the opportunity for acreage, but it the meantime I am glad to hear you are succeeding where you are 'planted'.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ...lots of management to grass land if you dig in a bit.


GG:

Thank you for the great advice! It sounds like you really know your stuff when it comes to wildlife stand management. If you don't mind, I might beg your advice when I get to the point that I need to plan the first succession of management- right now, I just need to get it planted as I am already a month late and the State Biologist is not a little annoyed with me .


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## Litsinger

So today against my better judgment I signed-up to do a trap-out of a swarm that took up residence in a red cedar this Spring.

A friend of mine made me aware that the owner wanted the bees gone due to being nervous about them bothering their renters, so it is either trap them out now or exterminate them.

Thankfully the opening is low to the ground, right next to the road and appears (upon initial observation) to be fairly easily secured.

Based on some of the lessons I learned with the 'bee tree' at my office (and good advice received here and from Cleo Hogan), my revised trap-out plan is as follows:

1. Install the female transition to the tree and attempt to secure all other openings in/out of the cavity. 

2. Wait 48 hours, allowing them to reorient to the new entrance configuration.

3. Install the trap-out box, including two empty drawn frames, two nectar frames and one open brood frame, connecting and sealing it to the female transition.

4. Wait 24 hours, and then inspect to see if the queen has moved into the trap-out box. If not move to step (5), if so move to step (6).

5. Wait 24 more hours and reinspect to see if the queen has moved into the trap-out box.

6. After 48 hours (with or without the queen), install a one-way bee funnel in the transition between the tree and the trap-out box.

7. Inspect weekly to ascertain when the queen has moved into the trap-out box. Once found, move to step (8).

8. Once queen is found, wait at least one week following and remove trap-out box.

9. Button-up tree opening.

I have attached photos of the tree in question and a PDF copy of Cleo's trapping recommendations for reference.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Witherell, P.C. (1976) _A story of success -the Starline and Midnite hybrid bee breeding programs_. American Bee Journal, 116(2): pages 63-64 and page 82.


When looking for this article, I noticed that Mr. Randy Oliver referenced it in one of his papers. So I contacted him, and I was pleasantly surprised when he responded with a copy of the article in question (as attached).

After reading the article, I was really surprised when reading the _'Acknowledgments'_ who suggested that the paper be written.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> So today against my better judgment I signed-up to do a trap-out of a swarm that took up residence in a red cedar this Spring.
> 
> A friend of mine made me aware that the owner wanted the bees gone due to being nervous about them bothering their renters, so it is either trap them out now or exterminate them.
> 
> Thankfully the opening is low to the ground, right next to the road and appears (upon initial observation) to be fairly easily secured.
> 
> Based on some of the lessons I learned with the 'bee tree' at my office (and good advice received here and from Cleo Hogan), my revised trap-out plan is as follows:
> 
> 1. Install the female transition to the tree and attempt to secure all other openings in/out of the cavity.
> 
> 2. Wait 48 hours, allowing them to reorient to the new entrance configuration.
> 
> 3. Install the trap-out box, including two empty drawn frames, two nectar frames and one open brood frame, connecting and sealing it to the female transition.
> 
> 4. Wait 24 hours, and then inspect to see if the queen has moved into the trap-out box. If not move to step (5), if so move to step (6).
> 
> 5. Wait 24 more hours and reinspect to see if the queen has moved into the trap-out box.
> 
> 6. After 48 hours (with or without the queen), install a one-way bee funnel in the transition between the tree and the trap-out box.
> 
> 7. Inspect weekly to ascertain when the queen has moved into the trap-out box. Once found, move to step (8).
> 
> 8. Once queen is found, wait at least one week following and remove trap-out box.
> 
> 9. Button-up tree opening.
> 
> I have attached photos of the tree in question and a PDF copy of Cleo's trapping recommendations for reference.
> 
> View attachment 50023
> View attachment 50025
> View attachment 50027
> View attachment 50029


hmmm soon you will need to do w write up seems you have this down.
Looks good keep some updates flowing


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ...seems you have this down.


Thanks for the encouragement, Gray Goose. I am afraid I do not have this (or any other beekeeping-related activity) down, but I did learn a lot working with the initial trap-out... and I am sure I will learn quite a bit this time too through trial-and-error.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Thanks for the encouragement, Gray Goose. I am afraid I do not have this (or any other beekeeping-related activity) down, but I did learn a lot working with the initial trap-out... and I am sure I will learn quite a bit this time too through trial-and-error.


Well Russ you have 1 more than 85% of the people on the forum, and about to have 2 
it is a lot of trial and error so that is the Path, you generally only learn on the error part.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ...you generally only learn on the error part.


How true- those painful lessons are hard to forget.

Thanks again for all your help. The help and advice you have offered me along the way has been invaluable.

Russ


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> ... you may have actually got the queen from the tree?


Well I am as sorry as I can be, but I am afraid that GWW's suspicion that I left the 'bee tree' hopelessly queenless is right.

It has been hard for me to judge because we have been in a dearth and the colonies at home have slowed brooding way down, but we have had some recent rain and the first of the summer pollen sources (i.e. Jewelweed and Sneezeweed) are coming in so the colonies have shown a big uptick in pollen gathering. 

The bee tree... not so much.

Given that it has been almost a full eight-weeks since I took their queen (May 23rd) is there any sense in investing an open frame of brood on them or should I unfortunately write them off?


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Well I am as sorry as I can be, but I am afraid that GWW's suspicion that I left the 'bee tree' hopelessly queenless is right.
> 
> It has been hard for me to judge because we have been in a dearth and the colonies at home have slowed brooding way down, but we have had some recent rain and the first of the summer pollen sources (i.e. Jewelweed and Sneezeweed) are coming in so the colonies have shown a big uptick in pollen gathering.
> 
> The bee tree... not so much.
> 
> Given that it has been almost a full eight-weeks since I took their queen (May 23rd) is there any sense in investing an open frame of brood on them or should I unfortunately write them off?


If you want to make a queen from an open frame of brood why not just put it in a NUC then it is not in the tree?  so you take the queen out of the tree and then now want to put one back, 
to keep the genes you would need to add a frame from the bee tree queen, BTW else you are putting a re queen/re-gene on the bee tree colones.
At this time of the year I would let it slide and consider it you are now managing the bee tree queen and hive. Have comfort that they can have more room , and have you to Guide them thru the winter.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ...to keep the genes you would need to add a frame from the bee tree queen, BTW else you are putting a re queen/re-gene on the bee tree colones.


GG: Thank you for your reply. You read my mind- *if* it had a reasonable chance of success, the plan would be to take a frame from the 'bee tree' queen and give it back to them. I would be all for trying it, but given two months have elapsed and we are getting late in the year I hate to invest in a wasted effort all the way around. 

I suppose my fond visions of annual starts from the 'bee tree' are falling down around my ears...


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## gww

russ
You might be surprised come spring with the tree. If they had a chance at all, they would have still made a queen. They would have gathered stores during that process. If she made it back, they may be inactive due to room. They may be inactive cause they are making another cell and getting ready to swarm.

I would not spend more time at this time of the year cause I am lazy and also hopeful. Either way, it will be interesting to watch it to the end. Not sure you could have did anything different anyway.
It is much too hot here to be doing much bee work.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> You might be surprised come spring with the tree. If they had a chance at all, they would have still made a queen.


GWW:

I like your positive attitude and I sincerely hope you are right. That said, I think it will be a pleasant surprise if they are around come Spring...

Stay cool over there- I am sure it is just about as oppressive as it is around here about now.


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## Litsinger

In what I would categorize as a research-based opinion piece, Dr. Tjeerd Blacquière, Senior Scientist with Wageningen University & Research (Netherlands) makes the case for the further use of Natural Selection techniques (i.e. ‘Darwinian Beekeeping’) in managed apiaries in a paper entitled, _‘A Plea for Use of Honey Bees’ Natural Resilience in Beekeeping’_:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0005772X.2018.1430999

In the article he attempts to make two main points (which are oft debated in beekeeping circles):

1.	Honeybees possess latent genetic resources which can be actively expressed in response to selection pressure when allowed to ‘let nature take its course’.

2.	Some common apicultural management techniques run afoul of these internal resilience processes.

These points might be summarized as follows:

_‘Our European honey bees naturally possess numerous traits including behaviors that make them less vulnerable to diseases and other threats in their environment. It is very important for these properties to be retained in their full genetic width, in order to sustain the colonies’ capacities to continuously adapt to new conditions. It is also important that we, as beekeepers, utilize as much as possible these adaptive abilities of the bees. This means that it may occasionally be better to follow the bees’ nature rather than to force the bees to meet our requirements.’_

A few of the long-form concepts introduced in the article include:

_‘Honey Bees are Endemic - Our honey bee occurs naturally as a wild species in Africa, the Middle East and Europe. Within this wide range, many described subspecies are present and well adapted to local circumstances. Additionally, there is variation within the different subspecies and the bees turn out to be strongly adapted to local conditions on a finer scale. Such local adaptation of “ecotypes” may be adaptation to the weather, to conditions and seasonality of forage, but also to local variation in diseases.’_

_‘The Honey Bee is a Wild Species - Where there are no active breeding and selection effort, the bees could be considered a wild species. Where more intensive selection and breeding occurs, we don’t have the level of domestication of farm animals, but we have semi-domestication, where some attributes of domestication coexist with some attributes of being a wild species. It appears that, as soon as a selective breeding for desired properties such as gentleness, low swarming tendency etc. is stopped, these traits are quickly lost. This suggests that several man selected traits are not directly beneficial to the colony fitness, as they would remain frequent in the gene pool otherwise.’_

_‘How Does Resilience Work in Nature? - As conspicuous as it seems, many widely accepted and used beekeeping methods counteract honey bees’ own resilience strategies.

In regular beekeeping many management measures as well as the choice of selected queens increase horizontal transmission paths and offend the development of a balanced mild host parasite relationship.’_

_‘Reproduction of Colonies: Vertical or Horizontal Transmission of Parasites? - Parasites depend on their hosts’ survival or on successful transmission to other susceptible hosts. Therefore, when a parasite depends solely on vertical transmission, a mild virulence is crucial.

The relationship between host and parasite might differ between the mother and the daughter colony, for good or bad.

… at each introduction of a foreign queen, the host-parasite interactions are reset. This disturbance would be minimized by introducing queens originating from the same apiary.

The research shows that beekeepers can greatly stimulate varroa infestation by: (1) preventing swarming (which leads to continuous breeding), (2) putting colonies close together in a row, and (3) keeping colonies already having a high infestation in the same apiary with low infestation colonies (so the infested colonies can collapse and be robbed by neighboring colonies, which will take over the mites). Although these results might not seem spectacularly surprising, the difference in the dynamics of colonies in a row versus scattered colonies is relevant.’_


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> In what I would categorize as a research-based opinion piece, Dr. Tjeerd Blacquière, Senior Scientist with Wageningen University & Research (Netherlands) makes the case for the further use of Natural Selection techniques (i.e. ‘Darwinian Beekeeping’) in managed apiaries in a paper entitled, _‘A Plea for Use of Honey Bees’ Natural Resilience in Beekeeping’_:
> ..............[/I]


Exactly what I have been saying in that "Saskatraz" queen topic nearby:


> i.e. beekeeping without queen breeding and without cultivation of breeds.


This is all about maintainable locally adapted stock, not some unsustainable gimmicks called - "bee breeds" for sale.
Historically "bee breeds" were exactly that - locally adapted populations, for as long as they stayed in the same place where they evolved.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> This is all about maintainable locally adapted stock, not some unsustainable gimmicks called - "bee breeds" for sale.
> Historically "bee breeds" were exactly that - locally adapted populations, for as long as they stayed in the same place where they evolved.


GregV:

Good feedback. This idea of 'landraces' makes intuitive sense to me. The thing that has intrigued me of late is if we assume one were able to develop a stable 'landrace' of EHB's in his/her region, how does the concept of 'hybrid vigor' fit into all this? Is a phenotypically-similar local bee population also simultaneously genetically diverse? You are no doubt more studied in this arena than me.

Using the Russian semi-managed stock as an example, would this population (if given time and isolation) regress to only those expressed genetic traits necessary to optimize survival in their specific ecological niche with outcomes that might run contrary to the beekeeper's goals?

In other words, in a natural-selection genetic model in a managed setting, would it ever be appropriate once reliable survival has been established to introduce outside genetics to impart vigor and/or beneficial traits (from the beekeeper's perspective)?

It's an interesting concept to think about, even though I recognize that one most assume stable survival and genetic isolation as givens, which few can reliably establish.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Good feedback. .........
> 
> It's an interesting concept to think about, even though I recognize that one most assume stable survival and genetic isolation as givens, which few can reliably establish.


I don't know/understand much either, Russ.

To clarify - the locally adapted bees are not exactly static in space and time either - the *gradual *changes are always taking places to reflect gradual local change (see climate changes) and gradual migration to newly available habitat and/or from no more suitable habitat. These are the properties of long-lived and successful species.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> These are the properties of long-lived and successful species.


GregV:

Thank you for your reply. Your point is astute from my perspective, and it makes sense to me that the process of natural selection will always be exerting pressure on a species to adapt to a similarly changing ecosystem around them.

Another article prepared by Dr. Blacquière and Dr. Peter Neumann, University of Bern entitled, ‘The Darwin cure for apiculture? Natural selection and managed honeybee health’ (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/eva.12448) describes the process as follows:

_‘As natural selection is the key mechanism of evolution, it will enable any given stock of managed honeybees, irrespective of habitat (agro‐ecosystems, nature reserves, etc.) and/or genetic background (endemic, imported, “pure” breeding lines, hybrids [e.g., Buckfast], etc.) to adapt to each and every stressor as long as the ability to cope with the stressor has a genetic basis so that the respective heritable traits can change in this population over time.’_

My general question is whether sustainable survival and beneficial colony attributes from the beekeeper’s perspective are by nature mutually exclusive?

This question is obviously an oversimplification, but the overarching question is whether natural selection inevitably moves EHB’s away from low swarming, excess honey production, docility, etc.?

The article flatly answers the question thus:

_‘Commercial breeders select against swarming, defensive behavior, and propolis usage, thereby probably compromising colony defense and social immunity. Indeed, in Africa, where the majority of honeybee colonies are not kept by man and where beekeepers are mostly side users not interfering with natural swarming, queen rearing etc., the virtually nonbred local subspecies have less desirable beekeeping traits, but a superior health compared to European ones.’_

If we take this as a given (and I am not necessarily saying we should), it brings me back to the question of whether it would ever be a good idea to introduce outside genetics into a stable genetic pool in an attempt to produce a suitable trade-off between survivability and beneficial managed colony traits?

Again, this is more of a thought experiment but an interesting concept to consider nonetheless.

The article goes on to make several other salient points (in my humble view), and one concept in particular stuck out to me, namely the key measures of colony health:

_‘As the fitness of a honeybee colony clearly is the number of surviving swarms as well as the number of successfully mating drones (all other traits are only tokens of fitness), the selection by beekeepers for low swarming tendency of colonies and removal of drone brood, mainly to combat mites V. destructor, remain probably the key factors in limiting natural selection.’_

Fundamentally, I take this to mean that from the colony’s perspective their primary motivation is perpetuation of the species and thus reproduction (not just survival) is the benchmark for success at the colony level.

The article goes on to describe how many beekeeping practices seek to mitigate natural selection to the extent that:

_‘It is evident that the beekeeper is the most crucial (multi)factor driving managed honeybee health. Indeed, beekeepers play the key role in spread as well as diagnosis and control of new and established diseases.

In particular, the role of common beekeeping practices in limiting natural selection as a potential major factor governing managed honeybee health has been completely ignored so far.’_

The article outlines several management factors which seek to mitigate natural selection (as graphically depicted in the attached), including:

Treating against ectoparasitic mites.
Maintaining high colony density.
Housing in large hives compared to natural nests.
Breaking the propolis envelope.
Placing stationary apiaries in areas with bad forage or by choosing the forage for the bees in migratory beekeeping.
Replacing honey stores with sugar water.
Removing drone brood.
Systematic queen renewal.

They conclude with several principal conclusions, two (2) of which stood out to me:

1. Local mating and sourcing of queens- _‘Therefore, “think globally, but breed locally” appears an adequate suggestion for honeybee breeders to take advantage of natural selection and to foster local adaptations.’_

2. The important niche of the hobby beekeeper- _‘Here lies a great opportunity for beekeeping in several countries, where economic constraints are no longer leading as beekeeping has become a hobby sector, with dispersed and small apiaries being the rule.’_


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> So today against my better judgment I signed-up to do a trap-out of a swarm that took up residence in a red cedar this Spring.


In preparation for this trap-out, I followed-up with Mr. Cleo Hogan who confirmed that he normally uses July 1st as a hard cut-off for trap-outs. In this situation, it is trap them out our let them get exterminated, so I am going to start on this effort tomorrow and hope for the best.

For the education I broke-down and bought a _'Swarm Harvester'_- Kelly Beekeeping's production representation of Mr. Hogan's design. 

In short, it is comprised of a bottom board, a modified eight-frame Langstroth deep box with corresponding male and female transition and an outer cover.

The female transition is 6" long and is a rectangular tube with a 3-3/4" X 5-1/4" cross sectional ID. This is the transition piece that attaches to the tree and the attachment cleats are 7-3/8" OD.

The male transition is 12" long and is a rectangular tube with a 1-1/2" X 3" cross sectional ID. This is the transition piece that mates to the female transition and attaches to the modified Langstroth box. Approximately 6" of the male transition is within the box and 5-1/4" is outside the box. The end of the male transition inside the box is open and the bottom has a conical bee escape affixed. The idea here is that once the trap-out assembly is in-place, you allow the colony to move freely between their home and the box until the queen has moved into the box- at which time you close the end such that home bees can travel through the bee escape into the box but not return to their home.

With the male transition, the box will comfortably house six (6) frames.

This effort had me scrounging around for drawn comb so I started raiding the remaining swarm traps scattered around the farm. I was disappointed to find that wax worms had absolutely eviscerated two of the three remaining Langstroth bait boxes I had out and it had been only about three weeks since I had last been in them. I made a mental note to pull most of them next year by the end of June. I suppose the only silver lining I could see is I found a unique way to 'rough-up' my boxes to promote the development of a propolis envelope .


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## Litsinger

I installed the female transition to the tree in preparation for the trap-out.

The next step will be to return in two days to install the trap-out hive, along with a frame of open brood, three frames of drawn comb and two frames of feed/pollen.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> I installed the female transition to the tree in preparation for the trap-out.
> 
> The next step will be to return in two days to install the trap-out hive, along with a frame of open brood, three frames of drawn comb and two frames of feed/pollen.
> 
> View attachment 50259
> View attachment 50261
> View attachment 50263
> View attachment 50265
> View attachment 50267


for the timing of July 1st one of the factors is to have enough stores for winter. So start thinking of a hive/hives you can steal 3 or 4 frames of honey from.
I have a couple of smaller NUCs with the same issue. IF you have a Lang that has had bees most of the year, Frame 1 or 10 is likely full of honey.
With a strong hive, you could pull those 2 frames this week, store them and add 2 frames of foundation or frames from your recovered traps, relieving some congestion and giving some comb for the queen to lay in.. Then next week you may be able to take a couple more from another hive. Set the trap out 6 frames in the center with 2 frames of honey on each side. This will Mitigate the couple weeks late you are trapping out. You just need to think of what they need for winter and how you can get them to the goal with less time. Filling 4 frames with honey is a 3-4 week project for the trap out hive. By adding it you are buying them time.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> for the timing of July 1st one of the factors is to have enough stores for winter. So start thinking of a hive/hives you can steal 3 or 4 frames of honey from.
> I have a couple of smaller NUCs with the same issue. IF you have a Lang that has had bees most of the year, Frame 1 or 10 is likely full of honey.
> With a strong hive, you could pull those 2 frames this week, store them and add 2 frames of foundation or frames from your recovered traps, relieving some congestion and giving some comb for the queen to lay in.. Then next week you may be able to take a couple more from another hive. Set the trap out 6 frames in the center with 2 frames of honey on each side. This will Mitigate the couple weeks late you are trapping out. You just need to think of what they need for winter and how you can get them to the goal with less time. Filling 4 frames with honey is a 3-4 week project for the trap out hive. By adding it you are buying them time.


Good post, GG.
We are approaching the last week of July.
I need to evaluate my July start-ups with this goal (winter stores) in mind now - as soon as I find the queen mating status of each.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Good post, GG.
> We are approaching the last week of July.


GG:

I concur- that was a great post and I sincerely appreciate your feedback. Your suggestion to put the honey frames on the outside of the brood frames is a good one, as I was going to put the open brood frame on the outside closest to the transition as Mr. Hogan suggests. While having the open brood nearest to the transition might induce the queen to come investigate more quickly, it would also come at the cost of me having to reorganize the core of the nest later, so I am going to go with your idea given the bad seasonal timing.

As for honey frames, I have the 'luxury' of having retained my surplus from last year in addition to frames recovered from my winter dead-outs.

This does serve as good segue into another question I have that relates to GregV's note about preparing for overwintering, namely:

These spare honey frames I have are a mix of solid capped honey and some with varying percentages of open cells. As you might imagine, sitting for a year has given the open cells ample opportunity to ferment. I have read varying opinions on this, but my thought was to shake out all the open feed I can and then feed these frames back into my existing colonies, replacing pristine capped frames at a ratio not to exceed 10% of their current stores. Does this seem like a reasonable proposition?

Then, with these 'new' capped frames I have harvested I will have plenty of stores to hand-out to the struggling colonies (i.e. the trap-out and the late swarms) as I begin winter preparations.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ..... As you might imagine, sitting for a year has given the open cells ample opportunity to ferment. ........


I would not worry too much.
Dilution is a key to most all pollution.
Spray the potentially fermented and partially crystallized honey with water liberally (really, don't be shy; let the water drip) and let the bees process.
They will be fine as long as you do this during warm, flying weather (not late in season, obviously).
Stronger hives will be best at reprocessing the old honey (but even the nucs will be fine - just be gradual and ration).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Spray the potentially fermented and partially crystallized honey with water liberally (really, don't be shy; let the water drip) and let the bees process.


Great idea, GregV. I hadn't considered washing them out- I can definitely do this before feeding them in. Thank you for your input- I appreciate it!

Russ


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Great idea, GregV. I hadn't considered washing them out- I can definitely do this before feeding them in. Thank you for your input- I appreciate it!
> 
> Russ


Not washing them out, but rather diluting any alcohol that may be in there to harmless levels.
Bees routinely scavenge rotting fruit - alcohol is nothing new to them.
Also giving enough water supply immediately next to the sugar grains, if any - this way they liquefy those too.
Any old honey not used - a waste of time and energy bees invested into making it.
Reprocessing old honey is way, way more productive then harvesting new nectar.

I do this right in place so that if anything drips off - goes directly onto the hive I target to supplement.
Bees will happily cleanup.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Not washing them out, but rather diluting any alcohol that may be in there to harmless levels.


Thanks for clarifying, GregV. So let me make sure I am understanding correctly- you are not necessarily trying to get rid of the fermented/crystallized nectar but rather wetting it to help aid in reprocessing?

Thanks for breaking it down for me- I am pretty slow on the uptake sometimes.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Great idea, GregV. I hadn't considered washing them out- I can definitely do this before feeding them in. Thank you for your input- I appreciate it!
> 
> Russ


Get a 5 gallon bucket, of warm water, and a old towel. Dunk several times, shake the water out. If your family is "patient" with you the sink works as well. Dry the frame and cappings with the towel. Some of the crystallized will dissolve and some of the fermented will come out. Adding in 1 frame to a hive is not an issue, 2 even to a stronger one. I use pool water 80 degrees with a little bleach. Seems to work fine.
Stand them on the top bar, for an hour to drain, then place the frames in a hive body with some space, 7 or 8 to a 10 frame. Can give them to the bees the next day. I also trim and scrape the frame at this time.
GG


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## Gray Goose

Russ

I concur- that was a great post and I sincerely appreciate your feedback. Your suggestion to put the honey frames on the outside of the brood frames is a good one, as I was going to put the open brood frame on the outside closest to the transition as Mr. Hogan suggests. While having the open brood nearest to the transition might induce the queen to come investigate more quickly, it would also come at the cost of me having to reorganize the core of the nest later, so I am going to go with your idea given the bad seasonal timing.

The 6 frames in the trap "IS" the core, you add the 4 frames of honey around it after you take it home. Then maybe Nadir an extracted medium under it a few weeks later. Similar to placing 4 frame of honey around a NUC when late transferring it to a regular type hive.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thanks for clarifying, GregV. So let me make sure I am understanding correctly- you are not necessarily trying to get rid of the fermented/crystallized nectar but rather wetting it to help aid in reprocessing?
> 
> Thanks for breaking it down for me- I am pretty slow on the uptake sometimes.


No, NO!

Old honey is a valuable resource NOT to be wasted. 
I never waste it and don't waste the time wasting the old honey.


Gimmy ALL of your old honey - my nucs will gobble it up.
Thick honey, bubbly looking honey, honey in moldy frames - it is all good during the *warm season*.
Wet it really well and feed all in.

I don't get people get all jumpy around old honey - use it, not wash it away.
It takes x10 energy, time, bees to get the same amount of new honey made.
Nucs don't have the workforce to use the flow going right now - well, I am almost out of old honey and that is a bummer.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> No, NO!
> 
> Old honey is a valuable resource NOT to be wasted.
> I never waste it and don't waste the time wasting the old honey.
> 
> 
> Gimmy ALL of your old honey - my nucs will gobble it up.
> Thick honey, bubbly looking honey, honey in moldy frames - it is all good during the *warm season*.
> Wet it really well and feed all in.
> 
> I don't get people get all jumpy around old honey - use it, not wash it away.
> It takes x10 energy, time, bees to get the same amount of new honey made.
> Nucs don't have the workforce to use the flow going right now - well, I am almost out of old honey and that is a bummer.


GregV I am down to my last 50 frames of honey, and parceling it out now with "expectations" good queens from good stock get the first of it.
Unknown swarm queens get , some hopefully  I gave 8 frames to a really nice looking swarm from a place "with no bees" last night. Moving 2 5x5 NUCs into 10 frame gear, tomorrow they get 4 each. once I start it goes quick. I like the bees to have it in Aug, they have some time to clean it up and fill it in. YA combs and Honey the tools of the trade. I need 8 for a finally recovered hive, went queen less, gave a cell, started to lay went queen less again just confirmed queen rite and looking like a nice pattern but only 5 seams of bees and no stores, likely need 8 frames for them. 1/2 gone and just warming up. Have all but 3 of my decoys back in and used the combs up. By The 10th of Aug I'll have all the decoys in, all the comb out in hives and all the honey out. Be in winter size/configuration, then the golden rod will pack them in for winter. 27 laying queens, from 7 this spring. First year playing with NUCs I loved it. little toy hives are big fun, quick and easy to check. Was a learning curve, they rob out easy and swarm easy, so they are different for me I am somewhat hands off manager.
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> GregV I am down to my last 50 frames of honey, and parceling it out now with "expectations" good queens from good stock get the first of it.
> Unknown swarm queens get , some hopefully  I gave 8 frames to a really nice looking swarm from a place "with no bees" last night. Moving 2 5x5 NUCs into 10 frame gear, tomorrow they get 4 each. once I start it goes quick. I like the bees to have it in Aug, they have some time to clean it up and fill it in. YA combs and Honey the tools of the trade. I need 8 for a finally recovered hive, went queen less, gave a cell, started to lay went queen less again just confirmed queen rite and looking like a nice pattern but only 5 seams of bees and no stores, likely need 8 frames for them. 1/2 gone and just warming up. Have all but 3 of my decoys back in and used the combs up. By The 10th of Aug I'll have all the decoys in, all the comb out in hives and all the honey out. Be in winter size/configuration, then the golden rod will pack them in for winter. 27 laying queens, from 7 this spring. First year playing with NUCs I loved it. little toy hives are big fun, quick and easy to check. Was a learning curve, they rob out easy and swarm easy, so they are different for me I am somewhat hands off manager.
> GG


Well, last check - I got TWO frames of old honey left.
All gone.
Did not have much old honey since most all my dead-outs decided to go dead in March (after eating most of the honey, idiots).
(lucky - gotten some old honey from someplace else).
Down to sugar feeding now to those who need the boost.

.... "place with no bees" ... will see what you got there.

Nucs - my 6-7 large-frame multi-use hives can hold them pretty well for a bit - but in about a month I will need to re-hive ALL of these puppies into some bigger hives for the winter setup (those hives I don't have yet). I feel bullish - got 14 start-ups going - gee, some of these have to make it through. But yes - time to think of the winter setup - unused old honey is great to have just about now


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Get a 5 gallon bucket, of warm water, and a old towel. Dunk several times, shake the water out.





GregV said:


> Old honey is a valuable resource NOT to be wasted.


Thank you, guys. Color me convinced. I am going to endeavor to take care of this while doing a deep-dive inspection of the Langs. I really do appreciate your expert input.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> The 6 frames in the trap "IS" the core, you add the 4 frames of honey around it after you take it home. Then maybe Nadir an extracted medium under it a few weeks later. Similar to placing 4 frame of honey around a NUC when late transferring it to a regular type hive.


Thanks GG. I apologize for the confusion. The way I was thinking through this is I can fit a total of six frames in the trap-out box. Assuming I currently have three empty drawn combs and I am adding a frame of open brood, I am left with two positions to fill immediately, which I figure I should fill with a frame of honey on either side of the four frame brood comb core.

Then, when I bring them home to hive them, I can add additional frames of nectar to the outside of their six frame base and not have to manipulate the structure of the four center frames in the process.

Otherwise, if I followed Mr. Hogan's directions to a 'T', the frame of empty brood would initially be in position '1' and would have to be re-organized once I get them home (assuming the trap-out works).

I might be overthinking this- it would not be the first time I have done so.

Thanks again for your advice and input. I do appreciate it.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Be in winter size/configuration, then the golden rod will pack them in for winter.





GregV said:


> But yes - time to think of the winter setup - unused old honey is great to have just about now


You all read my mind- I am currently thinking about winter preps and remaining resource management assuming no appreciable flow between now and winter close-out. 

So acknowledging that we all live in different climates, what are the general things you are looking for or planning to adjust as you get positioned for the fall flow (or lack thereof)?

You all are in better shape than me- while I have quite a bit of capped honey held over, I do not have any empty drawn comb at this point, and only three partially drawn frames of foundation...


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> You all read my mind- I am currently thinking about winter preps and remaining resource management assuming no appreciable flow between now and winter close-out.
> 
> So acknowledging that we all live in different climates, what are the general things you are looking for or planning to adjust as you get positioned for the fall flow (or lack thereof)?
> 
> You all are in better shape than me- while I have quite a bit of capped honey held over, I do not have any empty drawn comb at this point, and only three partially drawn frames of foundation...


Well, as for me I am out of combs almost too - a half-bin of cut-outs saved for the traps - will use those into my foundation-less blanks (even drone combs are fine for stores).
I got lots of 5.4mm foundation and may use some for starting strips - but no more. 
Natural it is for me and don't care for foundation much.
I found that strong nucs will build pretty well when well fed, and so I will depend on that.

Almost all my nucs are on 3 frames now - that will have to change quickly now - they will have to build up fast.
So - this weekend I will go and check my eight (8) main TF-line July start-ups (I expect to find laying queens everywhere).
Immediately, I will give each a blank frame to build and drop in a coffee bag with tainted sugar syrup (so that they always have a "flow" and build up no matter the weather and natural flow).
The goal - each of the starts should have 6-8 large frames well covered with the bees and those frames should be about 60-80% capped with the stores (some or most of that will be sugar syrup - case by case; last year I never fed few large startups - was no need - this year I split more aggressively and we'll see). 
I have about 2 months for each start-up to reach that goal.
Some of the startups will explode and will store the actual honey.
Some may not so well - need to see, not to overdo the sugar - for now I need sugar just to promote building and brooding (not to go into the storage).
In about a month, we'll see if any startups will need actual winter feeding - not there yet.

So, this is as far as I go with chemical treatments - sugar.

I will save my last old honey frames as the last-ditch resource now. Very little I have left.

The coffee bag feeding - I just stuff the coffee bags with grass for bees to climb on - this year I will stuff them with Artemisia since I found lots of it (good for bee guts).
The coffee bags are strong, slide easily into a narrow spaces (good for nucs) and this is a good way to reuse them (otherwise - trash).
Each bag takes in a quart - need to double-check each bag - I had a case when a beg leaked - but normally they are air/liquid proof and really are strong and hold up well.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Natural it is for me and don't care for foundation much.


GregV:

Great post- I enjoyed reading about/considering your coffee bag feeder idea- seems like a good way to go about it, though I suppose the only limitation is having the available width to support it- which you obviously have with the dead-air space you provide in your hives.

I am also a fan of foundationless and have not used any foundation this year. That said, I have three frames of partially-drawn small-cell foundation laying around that have managed not to get destroyed by wax worms yet, so I figure I ought to use them rather than lose them.

Other than stores, I appreciated your describing how many frames of bees you are looking for in your starts by the time you get ready to close-out. One thing I learned the hard way last year is that I might have been better served to combine a couple weak nucs rather than letting them both freeze, so I am mindful of this as I evaluate the late hived swarms.

Thanks again for the input- good stuff.

Russ


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Great post- I enjoyed reading about/considering your coffee bag feeder idea- seems like a good way to go about it, though I suppose the only limitation is having the available width to support it- which you obviously have with the dead-air space you provide in your hives.
> 
> I am also a fan of foundationless and have not used any foundation this year. That said, I have three frames of partially-drawn small-cell foundation laying around that have managed not to get destroyed by wax worms yet, so I figure I ought to use them rather than lose them.
> 
> Other than stores, I appreciated your describing how many frames of bees you are looking for in your starts by the time you get ready to close-out. One thing I learned the hard way last year is that I might have been better served to combine a couple weak nucs rather than letting them both freeze, so I am mindful of this as I evaluate the late hived swarms.
> 
> Thanks again for the input- good stuff.
> 
> Russ


Coffee bags stand well, when pretty full of liquid.
You can also stand several of them side-by-side - to support each other.
You can also tape them together side-by-side - if the space is too wide.

But yes - easiest to have them in tight enough spaces to not allow for accidental fall over. 
Which works well for me - I normally always run dead-air spaces on one or both sides (for small clusters).
The bags easy to slide down/pull out and will fit most any space.
Must have enough scaffolding stuffed in so to prevent excessive bee drowning - same as with most frame feeders.
So, check it out.
I collected hundreds of the coffee bags over the years, looking for a good re-use. Here is one.

Comb resources - will see I guess; this is the highest # of nucs I will try to winter; so everything is in short supply.
Now, I have many frames currently in the supers and I don't see lots of honey coming in - well, I might retrofit some of those into the nucs (but, those are foundation-based; not ideal; will still try to have the nucs building natural cell).

Last year I too unsuccessfully tried to winter 3 super small nucs as I reported (mated in early September) - this year I will not do it again - too busy as-is.
July startups are a good and worthy project and actually kept me afloat into this season - I will focus on these instead.


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## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Well, last check - I got TWO frames of old honey left.
> All gone.
> Did not have much old honey since most all my dead-outs decided to go dead in March (after eating most of the honey, idiots).
> (lucky - gotten some old honey from someplace else).
> Down to sugar feeding now to those who need the boost.
> 
> .... "place with no bees" ... will see what you got there.
> 
> Nucs - my 6-7 large-frame multi-use hives can hold them pretty well for a bit - but in about a month I will need to re-hive ALL of these puppies into some bigger hives for the winter setup (those hives I don't have yet). I feel bullish - got 14 start-ups going - gee, some of these have to make it through. But yes - time to think of the winter setup - unused old honey is great to have just about now


the place with no bees, is "close" to a big swamp where Ferals are rumored to lurk. the last 3 places I put decoys the bears found and destroyed. So a few miles out is one of my Aunts property, who claims there are no bees around there. so that is where I caught the last swarm, small but with an old laying queen so could have been a small cavity. I am interested to see how they winter. 
Mine were the opposite they were dead shortly after Christmas, was a mite bomb somewhere they looked good when I took honey then 10 weeks later dead. Had most of a deep and a medium of honey on each of 6, 1/2 on new drawn comb, I almost extracted it but, changed my mind last min and went for increase.

good luck on the prep of the hives you need to build. Make a jig or 2. too bad you did not need some next year, I may have some logs sawed this fall.
be more than I need. the white pine I am thinkin 5/4 x 7 for mediums, the red pine I will sheet the bee shed. Several trees almost 2 feet on the stump.

Any of your hives have enough new honey to steal a frame for another hive? I have 5 or 6 with 2 medium supers, I can always use my new honey for winter feed, just reduce what I need to extract. all a trade-off, just depends on what I want.


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> .......
> Any of your hives have enough new honey to steal a frame for another hive? I have 5 or 6 with 2 medium supers, I can always use my new honey for winter feed, just reduce what I need to extract. all a trade-off, just depends on what I want.



I am sure I can steal few frames.
One thing is - we too (the people) want that same honey.
So, I will rely on sugar for the nucs.

But also, I don't completely trust the local late honey - losing one best hive to the explosive diarrhea in March could actually amount to crappy honey in the mix (late honey dew honey could do this). I will happily take the late honey myself if I only can.

So, sugar winter feeding is, in fact, safer than using suspect honey in *winter*.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> I am sure I can steal few frames.
> One thing is - we too (the people) want that same honey.
> So, I will rely on sugar for the nucs.
> 
> But also, I don't completely trust the local late honey - losing one best hive to the explosive diarrhea in March could actually amount to crappy honey in the mix (late honey dew honey could do this). I will happily take the late honey myself if I only can.
> 
> So, sugar winter feeding is, in fact, safer than using suspect honey in *winter*.


understood, one "feature" of the Langs is that I can easily get honey for my self. I do like the long frame hive and have plans for a couple. I may lean toward having drone producing colonys in them. I can "simulate" a long frame by not removing the bur comb between bottoms and tops of frames, post Aug 1. The gap is the only difference, + the wood. there is the time in the winter when they hit the 2 inch or so gap of wood and bur comb, not sure if that is impact full or a speed bump for the bees. Some texts from the old world state 1 mm a day upward travel on the combs, ( northern Russia) so in the cold 1 mm a day could be a week or more.

I place a foundation less frame in slot 1 or 10 and I can pull it when full and add an empty comb into the brood next. One thing about the langs is the flexibility. You may want to try a couple. You can do a shook swarm into the long frame equipment, for increase. I do agree at least you should have honey for your efforts. Interesting discussion with all the different Equipment. Seems the features of each Equipment method differs a bit.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> July startups are a good and worthy project and actually kept me afloat into this season - I will focus on these instead.


Thanks, GregV. This is a point I am trying to keep in mind- the 80/20 rule. Invest the resources in a manner that produce the most reliable prospects for success. That said, it is hard (for me at least) to not get somewhat emotionally attached to certain projects (i.e. a late July trap-out) and lose site of the fundamentals .


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> *understood, one "feature" of the Langs is that I can easily get honey for my self. *I do like the long frame hive and have plans for a couple. I may lean toward having drone producing colonys in them. I can "simulate" a long frame by not removing the bur comb between bottoms and tops of frames, post Aug 1. The gap is the only difference, + the wood. there is the time in the winter when they hit the 2 inch or so gap of wood and bur comb, not sure if that is impact full or a speed bump for the bees. Some texts from the old world state 1 mm a day upward travel on the combs, ( northern Russia) so in the cold 1 mm a day could be a week or more.
> 
> I place a foundation less frame in slot 1 or 10 and I can pull it when full and add an empty comb into the brood next. One thing about the langs is the flexibility. You may want to try a couple. You can do a shook swarm into the long frame equipment, for increase. I do agree at least you should have honey for your efforts. Interesting discussion with all the different Equipment. Seems the features of each Equipment method differs a bit.



Yes, I can see that.
This is why I experiment with hybrid Lang/Layens setup - got three (3) such hives in production this season.
Unsure yet what to make of it. 
No honey that I could find per the last weekend checks - to my surprise - I was preparing for supers full of honey - OK, waiting more.

For sure - they are all into the growth and consumtion mode still (not honey packing mode).

I really like my long hives as for the accessibility (with my Lang/Layens hybrids I don't even bother trying to look into the lower chamber now - huge hassle with so many bees all over).
Long hives - this is a trivial problem - can get anywhere anytime with good bee control.
So far, my long hives (after near complete resource robbing via the fly-back splitting) still seem to have just as many bees AND building the new combs AND packing the honey too.

I am torn - still love usability of my long hives despite the bulk and mass they have - some lighter material design is needed.
One downside of my long hives - the early and late honeys tend to be mixed on the same frames - that is bug/feature of a long hive.
Trying supers with my long hives *again *this year - they just don't like bringing the honey UP at all.
The bees are only using the supers as a hang-out place and all the action occurs in the main body still.
Donno... 
Every year hope for something to go my way.
Fingers crossed.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thanks, GregV. This is a point I am trying to keep in mind- the 80/20 rule. Invest the resources in a manner that produce the most reliable prospects for success. That said, it is hard (for me at least) to not get somewhat emotionally attached to certain projects (i.e. a late July trap-out) and lose site of the fundamentals .


Right.
I observe how people winter all those tiny nucs - and can NOT achieve the same myself.
But you know, I will just focus on July start-up model and will get that working.
Really all I need being a small-scale beek - consistently working July start-ups - expansion & queen-rearing - all-in-one.
People can run/winter all the minis they want - I am just going to look the other way.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> ......... Interesting discussion with all the different Equipment. Seems the features of each Equipment method differs a bit.


Over the weekend I just "wasted" 10 pre-assembled Dadant frames I had by converting them into Layens frames (well, did not really save much time after ALL the tinkering I did - the idea was - quick and dirty conversion and no tinkering).

Well, I got a box full of Dadant frames I scored last fall (un-assembled yet).
Really itching to just put a couple of my start-ups onto the proper Dadant frames - all I need to do - turn those Layens frames 90 degrees and screw in longer top bars.
(do it LIVE of course - bees and all - not too hard on small hives yet - hence the itch).
It would be good experiment to send a couple of start-ups into the winter on Dadant setup (maybe I will like it and maybe bees will do fine - but it will go counter to the narrow/tall frame idea I am trying to maintain).

OR maybe I should finally build one Warre-style hive and winter a start-up in it - using same compatible frames to mine.

Donno - takes time - meanwhile, my berry patch MUST be harvested AND July apple crop must be harvest AND more harvest is piling up now and the kids need attention.


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## Gray Goose

gregV

for this "I am torn - still love usability of my long hives despite the bulk and mass they have - some lighter material design is needed."

1) consider Cedar, I have some cedar supers they seem to work fine. only thing to keep in mind is the wood is softer when cleaning.

2) Have you thought of making A detachable type set up ? where you have ends with room for 2 frames with latches to clip them on.
then make 6 or 8 frame center sections where you can take an end off add 6 frame extension , make it a 2 to 8 frame expansion, somewhat in place. then the 2 frame ends can be united for a 4 frame starter. the center 6-8 frame add ons can be stacked into a 12 frame add on if needed. 

I know the long hives are already a lot of work this would add many cuts and some planning. I see the 1 turn crate type clips fasteners and think about how to use them.

Or maybe a threaded rod of 5 feet where there is a hole or 2 in the walls and they are all tightened together with a wrench and use large washers.

My 2 48 inch long hives would nice to split in half for increase in summer, then expand as necessary. So basically the vertical expandibility of the Langs adapted to Horizontal expandibility for the long hive. would take some drawing it out but that makes a good winter project 

I am also looking at the "wall" with the hives built in, i think for 8 or 10 of them this would be less work overall, building, inspecting, harvesting etc.
Could then have the back side room heated to 35 degrees for the extreme cold. Also somewhat the same idea of the long hive with an open-able end in the room. With the opening to the outside the brood nest would be in the far end with honey to the room side. Side walls with 1/2 x1 inch frame rests.
Slide in a NUC, add frames for honey and close it up. My initial idea is either 3 deep or 5 medium for height, maybe 12-14 frames for width.

too many ideas to little time. 
GG


----------



## GregB

GG,

#1 - the materials must be free for me - I hate buying materials when so much FREE wood/plywood/foam is laying around (BUT - hard to find lots of free cedar - I only fetch a board or two time to time); 
I have made one hive from plywood/foam sandwiches - was poor material choice - just as heavy and the sheathing plywood turned out terrible when used outdoors - need to have lighter plywood and yet weather-resistant.

#2 - the hive body must be a rigid uni-body for the strength - these horizontally-detachable body-parts have been tried in the past - not good and complicated (as opposed to vertical stacks of multi-bodies).
Of course new materials/hardware/technology might resolve the issues - I am not saying this is impossible.

Ideally - a very strong AND very light 16(20)-frame long uni-body hive - ALL I ever want. 
Say some incredibly strong foam hive that you can drop fully loaded and it holds - that would be ideal.

Many ideas - yes.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> People can run/winter all the minis they want - I am just going to look the other way.


Understood- I am still intrigued by the idea and would love to give it a fair-minded trial following the current best-practices out there but simply haven't the time nor equipment to do so... but sounds like based on your following posts you have the same problem!


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I am going to endeavor to take care of this while doing a deep-dive inspection of the Langs.


As usual, I was running short on time yesterday, so I had to make some concessions.

First, I pulled out all the stored nectar and was pleasantly surprised that it was not nearly as funky as I feared. As GG suggested, I got a 5 gallon bucket of water, quickly dunked the frames and scraped most of the propolis off into a small container for future use.

I then divided the frames into two (2) piles with the following counts:

80%+ Capped - 16

<80% Capped - 6

I took two (2) of the frames to donate to the trap-out project and took the remainder plus three (3) frames of foundation and one (1) foundationless frame and made up three (3) complete eight frame boxes.

I then set the storage tote out to get cleaned-up and inspected all the Langstroth colonies- report to follow.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> As usual, I was running short on time yesterday, so I had to make some concessions.


It was already getting late in the day and I needed to finalize the trap-out, so I elected rather than doing a full inspection of the Langs, I would simply take a box-by-box peak at them to see how they were getting along- so I tore them all down but did not pull many frames.

#1803 - Eight boxes tall and full of brood. This is the colony that swarmed on May 8th. I did dig through this one pretty significantly as I needed an open brood frame for the trap-out. While I cannot confirm it, I would guess this colony currently has two queens laying based on both the amount and location of brood. Basically the bottom three boxes are mainly brood, the next two are mainly nectar, the next two are mainly brood and the top box is nectar. I took a mixed frame of open and capped brood and pollen from box 6. In the top half, I also found five (5) queen cells- singles spread across four frames with one having jelly in it. Also surprisingly I found that they had mostly drawn out six (6) frames of the empty box of frames that I had nadired this spring. This colony last year and pre-swarm was very defensive and active on the combs. They were very easy to work yesterday, so I was able to experience the difference a new queen can make in regards to temperament.

#1804 - Four boxes tall. All eight frames in the bottom box were drawn out, third box was heavy with nectar and forth box was empty.

#1907 - Four boxes tall but only the equivalent of eight drawn frames in the two center boxes. Virtually no surplus nectar judging by weight, making me assume they have devoted most all of their surplus gathering to comb building. I added a box of last year's surplus to them. This is a small (~2.5#) secondary swarm I hived from a neighbor on May 2nd. They obviously have way too much room but I have seen virtually no sign of wax moths nor small hive beetles so I left the stack intact for now.

#1909 - Four boxes tall with twelve drawn frames in the top two boxes. Both top boxes had a little heft to them. This is a good sized (5#) swarm I hived on May 9th. They have also drawn out a good bit of comb in the shim space associated with their upper entrance.

#1910 - Three boxes tall with fifteen drawn frames- of which eight are donated to them. They are actively using nine of them. Similarly little surplus nectar. Added a box of stores. This is a very small (1.5#) swarm I hived on May 19th.

#1911 - Three boxes tall with seventeen drawn frames and a fair bit of nectar stored. They didn't need it, but I put the last box of last year's stores on them for safe-keeping. This is the 'bee tree' trap-out from my office that I brought home on May 23rd.

I did not inspect the five (5) Warre colonies. While I may regret it later, I am taking a 'hands-off' approach with them- only inspecting if there is something obviously wrong that I expect I might be able to address by my intervention.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> The next step will be to return in two days to install the trap-out hive, along with a frame of open brood, three frames of drawn comb and two frames of feed/pollen.


Following the less-than-through inspections, I headed over to the trap-out site to put the Hogan Swarm Harvester in place. I installed the trap-out hive and attached male transition to the previously installed female transition and sealed everything up. The hive itself was loaded with two frames of nectar/pollen, three frames of empty drawn comb and one frame of capped/open brood. I finished-up about 8:00 p.m. local time.

As of noon today, there were about 1.5 - 2.0 pounds of bees in the trap, busy cleaning out the empty cells and removing the nectar. No queen yet and I am afraid there might be quite a lot of chilled brood on my donor frame as I saw bees hauling out some larvae. Our low last night was all the way down to the low 60's.

My next move will be to check the trap again tomorrow night and see if the queen might perhaps be in there.


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## Litsinger

Here is a good article published today in Science Magazine giving a broad overview of the various approaches being tried worldwide to advance possible genetic breakthroughs in the struggle against varroa:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07/breeders-toughen-bees-resist-deadly-mites


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## squarepeg

the swiss researcher quoted in that article is the one reaching out for tf samples from here in the u.s. i mentioned on my thread.


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> the swiss researcher quoted in that article is the one reaching out for tf samples from here in the u.s. i mentioned on my thread.


Thanks, SP. I am eager to hear how this study materializes with the North Alabama genetic stock you all have been working with.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> It was already getting late in the day and I needed to finalize the trap-out, so I elected rather than doing a full inspection of the Langs, I would simply take a box-by-box peak at them to see how they were getting along- so I tore them all down but did not pull many frames.
> 
> #1803 - Eight boxes tall and full of brood. This is the colony that swarmed on May 8th. I did dig through this one pretty significantly as I needed an open brood frame for the trap-out. While I cannot confirm it, I would guess this colony currently has two queens laying based on both the amount and location of brood. Basically the bottom three boxes are mainly brood, the next two are mainly nectar, the next two are mainly brood and the top box is nectar. I took a mixed frame of open and capped brood and pollen from box 6. In the top half, I also found five (5) queen cells- singles spread across four frames with one having jelly in it. Also surprisingly I found that they had mostly drawn out six (6) frames of the empty box of frames that I had nadired this spring. This colony last year and pre-swarm was very defensive and active on the combs. They were very easy to work yesterday, so I was able to experience the difference a new queen can make in regards to temperament.
> 
> #1804 - Four boxes tall. All eight frames in the bottom box were drawn out, third box was heavy with nectar and forth box was empty.
> 
> #1907 - Four boxes tall but only the equivalent of eight drawn frames in the two center boxes. Virtually no surplus nectar judging by weight, making me assume they have devoted most all of their surplus gathering to comb building. I added a box of last year's surplus to them. This is a small (~2.5#) secondary swarm I hived from a neighbor on May 2nd. They obviously have way too much room but I have seen virtually no sign of wax moths nor small hive beetles so I left the stack intact for now.
> 
> #1909 - Four boxes tall with twelve drawn frames in the top two boxes. Both top boxes had a little heft to them. This is a good sized (5#) swarm I hived on May 9th. They have also drawn out a good bit of comb in the shim space associated with their upper entrance.
> 
> #1910 - Three boxes tall with fifteen drawn frames- of which eight are donated to them. They are actively using nine of them. Similarly little surplus nectar. Added a box of stores. This is a very small (1.5#) swarm I hived on May 19th.
> 
> #1911 - Three boxes tall with seventeen drawn frames and a fair bit of nectar stored. They didn't need it, but I put the last box of last year's stores on them for safe-keeping. This is the 'bee tree' trap-out from my office that I brought home on May 23rd.
> 
> I did not inspect the five (5) Warre colonies. While I may regret it later, I am taking a 'hands-off' approach with them- only inspecting if there is something obviously wrong that I expect I might be able to address by my intervention.
> 
> View attachment 50339


Hi Russ
the lite on stores hives would have me concerned. All my over wintered hives have 3 supers of capped honey and 1 or 2 more being worked. this years splits have 30-50 pounds. For Ky the stores would need to be less but you will still need some stores. Keep an eye on the weight, give them a lift each 2 weeks, to see how they progress.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Russ
> the lite on stores hives would have me concerned. All my over wintered hives have 3 supers of capped honey and 1 or 2 more being worked. this years splits have 30-50 pounds. For Ky the stores would need to be less but you will still need some stores. Keep an eye on the weight, give them a lift each 2 weeks, to see how they progress.


GG:

Thank you very much for the helpful input. I am still definitely flying by the seat of my pants. I can (and likely will) start supplementally feeding if it becomes apparent that this will be required, but I also want to minimize my investment as much as practical to help winnow the proverbial wheat from the chaff.

It seems to me that beyond the obvious practical challenges of trying to be treatment-free (i.e. simply keeping colonies alive and not unleashing 'mite bombs'), there are myriad other questions you end up asking, all of which seem to center around how much and what kind of intervention is appropriate.

Said more simply, what practically can be seen as good husbandry in giving a boost to an otherwise viable colony and what is giving a crutch to genetics that one would be better served to eliminate from the mix?

At this point (and I reserve the right to revisit this), I have been working under the assumption that any first-year colony is eligible for supplemental feed and nurse bees up to the point of reproductive cut-off (i.e. 12 months following hiving).

Beyond this, colonies would only get emergency intervention (i.e. re-queening) and would otherwise be left to their own devices.

I own up to the fact that this may be short-sided thinking, but it is the best I can come up with at present based on what I have read and observed. We'll see what emerges...

Thanks again for your input. I really appreciate it.

Russ


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> GG:
> 
> Thank you very much for the helpful input. I am still definitely flying by the seat of my pants. I can (and likely will) start supplementally feeding if it becomes apparent that this will be required, but I also want to minimize my investment as much as practical to help winnow the proverbial wheat from the chaff.
> 
> It seems to me that beyond the obvious practical challenges of trying to be treatment-free (i.e. simply keeping colonies alive and not unleashing 'mite bombs'), there are myriad other questions you end up asking, all of which seem to center around how much and what kind of intervention is appropriate.
> 
> Said more simply, what practically can be seen as good husbandry in giving a boost to an otherwise viable colony and what is giving a crutch to genetics that one would be better served to eliminate from the mix?
> 
> At this point (and I reserve the right to revisit this), I have been working under the assumption that any first-year colony is eligible for supplemental feed and nurse bees up to the point of reproductive cut-off (i.e. 12 months following hiving).
> 
> Beyond this, colonies would only get emergency intervention (i.e. re-queening) and would otherwise be left to their own devices.
> 
> I own up to the fact that this may be short-sided thinking, but it is the best I can come up with at present based on what I have read and observed. We'll see what emerges...
> 
> Thanks again for your input. I really appreciate it.
> 
> Russ


 I try not to limit my self with rules. First year would include splits so I would tend to agree. My bees are 6 weeks from hitting the cooler weather. I like 2/3 of winter stores in place by now. IF you will need to feed , anyway, I would do it earlier, get them to a few frames of stores. Some bees will slow the queens laying, during dearth, the smallish ones you want full out growth if you can get it. Sugar is cheap , just remember to not take your honey from the ones you feed . You could consider a "1 frame wide" insulate board like 1.25 inch foam, place one on each side of the smaller hives , leave the height and take away width, conceptually convert the box to 8 frame for 5 months.. Be nice to hear how they made the winter. Maybe give the heft test and mark them heavy, good, and lite. then when a few croke you will have the weight down as to what is not enough for winter .. I heft mine and it needs to be a handful. 70-90 pounds, less than that is not good and needs remedial action or accept they may not make it. the first year starve out is not a survivability trait if you made the split late or 2 small, so you get it I am sure.
GG


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> ........ the first year starve out is not a survivability trait if you made the split late or 2 small, so you get it I am sure.
> GG


Pretty much any spawning done outside of the natural prime swarm time frame is NOT good for natural survivability chances (that old proverb about the May swarm as being most worthy has it right).
By this logic, the artificial July splits (kind of equivalent of late swarms) have small room for error to make it through the winter - unless we prop them up.

So, indeed, letting the mid-season/late-season splits to survive with no help is not really testing them for the ability to survive locally. 
We are already setting them up for a high probabilty of failure due to the timing - need to compensate appropriately.


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## gww

Russ
I do winter feed a little different. I let them do what they may till oct if I think they will have at least one medium drawn by then. I have wintered hives as small as one medium. I never weigh the hives and play it on just a guess. I read a MO pamphlet that said 40 to 80 lbs of stores to winter a hive.

https://extension2.missouri.edu/g7601

I then put my tilt to what I had read.

So first year right around oct 1st. I put 3 gal of thick syrup on all my hives as fast as I could. Basically I tried to set three gal on a hive at once. I counted that as 30 lbs of stores and figured if they could not get the rest, heck with them. I did put a sugar block on top.

My first year coming out of winter turned out to being a warm feb and so the bees were swarming before it even got warm.

Last year I put only two gal on and no sugar block on about half. The ideal was to make them not have too much excess that they could build up on in the hopes to slow swarm instinct down a bit.

The ideal in my mind of the last minute drop of sugar water fast is that it will not be used to make brood with but will be winter stores.

Most want their hives to get big fast and gather lots of honey but my goal was just to keep the bees in the hives at the cost of honey production cause I had no comb to give them to keep them from swarming.

I know what I am telling you is not the smart or professional way to do things. Using a scale and being sure of what you have would be much better. I only write this to keep you thinking of what you want to accomplish while you are doing your planning of your actions.

My goals were to slow the bees down, do it in a lazy fashion, and give them just enough for insurance but making them do some of the work to and hoping that it worked with out too much math. I wanted them to survive but not prosper so much that I lost control of swarming like the first year.
I don't even know if this post is sensible or could be bad and hurt if taken too seriously. I am just throwing out how my thinking was attached to my actions. I hope somebody calls me out if I am putting something bad out.
Cheers
gww

PS This year if I don't lose my guts, I am going to try no feed and let what happens happen. I believe that very few of my hives will have 70/80 pounds of stores in them this year or any year including the ones I fed.


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## Litsinger

Guys:

I really appreciate the winter stores feedback. I will respond with more detail later when I am at a workstation.

In the interim, I have a quandary at the trap-out that I would appreciate your input on.

Specifically, the trap-out is progressing nicely with maybe 2.5# of bees in the box. They have systematically cleaned all the frames and moved all the capped nectar to the tree cavity.

No queen siting yet, but they have drawn-out a beautiful single queen cell on the open brood frame I gave them.

So at this point they have full access to their home, no resident stores in the trap-out and a supercedure cell.

Should I:

Put the one-way bee escape on and begin feeding the queenless half, knowing they are going to daily gain more workers?

Leave the communication open and see if the resident queen will come down to destroy the queen cell or the new queen will emerge and another prospect unfold?

Something else?

One way or another I have to get the resident queen, so I will have to install the bee escape at some juncture. No rush yet, however.

FWIW- there was no queen cell 48 hours ago so I expect that I have at least 8 days to decide. At this point I may just wait a week and see whether the cell is still viable or has been ripped-open on the side before determining my course of action.


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## Litsinger

Regarding a proposed overwintering set-up:

I really appreciate the input you all have provided. I have intended to post my late-season goals before now but I have been continuing to think through what I hope to accomplish in light I what I've learned and read this year.

What I do know:

1. Commercial beekeepers in my area typically overwinter in a 10-frame deep with a Mountain Camp feeding on top.

2. #1803 consumed approximately 1-1/2 boxes of stores last Winter (8 frame medium size) and entered Spring strong.

3. #1804 consumed approximately 1/2 a box of stores and entered Spring hanging on for dear life.

4. Last winter was marginally colder than what is typical for us.

Conceptualizing this limited dataset, my current thoughts are as follows:

1. All hives get an upper entrance and added insulation between the inner and outer covers.

2. All hives get the equivalent of at least two full boxes of overhead stores.

3. All hives get an empty box added to the very bottom of the stack.

The result of these manipulations would mean that all hives would be either 4 or 5 boxes tall and would at least present the opportunity for early-season manipulations (i.e. checkerboarding and/or moving the cluster down) if I elect to do so.

Otherwise, I really like GG's idea of using insulation as follower boards of a sort to reduce the volume and increase the cavity insulation for small clusters. I am going to think long and hard about using this approach.

I'll save my thoughts about the empty bottom box for a later post, after I have the chance to observe #1803's and #1804's final progress on their bottom boxes for a reference point.

As an aside, the 'bad guys' showed up at the 'bee tree' late last week looking for a way in to rob it out- very distinctly marked. Looks like a skunk has been looking for a way in too.


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## Litsinger

GregV recently referenced an excellent set of presentations from the 2017 National Honey Show in a discussion about propolis. The two part series is entitled, _“Honey Bees in the Wild”_ and features a message by Mr. Roger Patterson (http://www.dave-cushman.net/) and a message by Dr. Thomas Seeley.

_Honey Bees in the Wild - PART 1 - What can we learn from them?_ by Roger Patterson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txGzuVJhJ_Y

_Honey Bees in the Wild - PART 2 - What do we know about how they live?_ by Tom Seeley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7CB8E7jKBc

While Dr. Seeley’s presentation was excellent (as always), I learned more from Mr. Patterson’s presentation for no other reason than he approached his talk based on observations from working with unmanaged hives in various settings for over 50 years.

In general, he noted that unmanaged hives (at least in the Southern part of England) tend to be:

1.	Less prolific in their expansion and production.
2.	Less likely to issue cast swarms.
3.	More frugal with stores.
4.	Darker in color.

At the 23 minute mark he describes the activities an unmanaged hive will typically take in their founding year.

At the 38 minute mark he outlines what he thinks we can learn from unmanaged colonies.

At the 1:07 mark he talks about the properties of unmanaged colonies he has dealt with.

At the 1:10 mark he makes a few final thoughts (suggestions) based on what we might learn unmanaged colonies.

He also mentions that the vast majority of unmanaged colonies he has interacted with over the years have had a comb spacing between 36 – 38 mm.

In Dr. Seeley’s talk he outlines the research that has informed much of what he now espouses in his ‘Darwinian Beekeeping’ model. 

At the 56 minute mark he outlines his suggestions for TF beekeeping.

He makes two extemporaneous comments outside his formal presentation that I had never heard him mention before:

1.	He commented that if we would stop treating for varroa in the US he thinks we would come out of it with stable genetics in 2 – 3 years, suggesting that something like 10% of the managed stock would initially survive.

2.	He mentioned that he thinks that annual swarming is an indispensable component of survival for the non-managed colonies that they continue to monitor. He states that ‘genetics is not enough’ and that if they don’t swarm they will succumb.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ....... excellent set of presentations from the 2017 National Honey Show ...... The two part series is entitled, _“Honey Bees in the Wild”_ and features a message by Mr. Roger Patterson (http://www.dave-cushman.net/) and a message by Dr. Thomas Seeley.
> .........


Great vids (both parts)!
Highly recommend.
I am still here past mid-night just now finished watching the Part I (I watched them backwards).
I have my disagreements (very few), but still both speakers are well worth watching.


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## clong

Litsinger said:


> 1.	He commented that if we would stop treating for varroa in the US he thinks we would come out of it with stable genetics in 2 – 3 years, suggesting that something like 10% of the managed stock would initially survive.


Russ,

The survival numbers in my apiary are 2/5, 2/4 and 4/6 the last three winters. The hives that succumbed were presumably due to varroa; two of the die-offs for sure. If I see the survival percentage increase this winter, I'll really have to wonder if the bees in my area have already weeded out some of the weak genetics. Time will tell. What is interesting, is of all of the queenright swarms I've caught near my property all had marked queens. The swarms are not feral.

I am starting to be become skeptical of the suggestion that varroa is a practical death sentence. There are too many accounts of treatment-free bees surviving just fine. Perhaps in some areas the bees have already turned the corner.


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## GregB

clong said:


> Russ, ....
> I am starting to be become skeptical of the suggestion that varroa is a practical death sentence...


Varroa is just an easy target to dump ALL the possible blame onto.
That is what people normally do - looking for quick blame targets and find quick and easy "resolutions" to those "easy targets" as if they are fixing something - NOT.
Meanwhile, simply waiting the apparent problem out - is all what is needed (few short years).
This entire Varroa story should be winding down my now, all on its own.
Well, "gimmy my pill now" mentality makes everything harder in long run.

Do any of you, guys, routinely work out? 
How many miles per week do you walk? Just walk?
Let me tell you, it is hard open-ended work and I often hate doing it, and yet I recommend it.
No quick pill exists to keep you healthy and in shape, only non-ending hard work.
There is no quick pill.
No pain, no gain.

Few weeks ago I was talking to guys at our community garden work-day.
My age came up. 
Well, people would give me 40-something (even 30-something).
How about 50-something?

Well, heredity has something to do with it too (I hope I am a treatment-free bee by birth).


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## gww

Russ
I see that patterson in his video is not a big proponent of the ideal of the fast feeding that I do in fall. His view is that it is stored so fast that the bees can not disperse pollen with it making it not as healthy. I would still do it my way due to being lazy and this is a way to getting stuff done fast.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> I am starting to be become skeptical of the suggestion that varroa is a practical death sentence. There are too many accounts of treatment-free bees surviving just fine. Perhaps in some areas the bees have already turned the corner.


CLong:

I am really glad to hear that your survival rates are showing improvement year-over-year. I simply do not have enough practical experience post-varroa to yield any conclusions in my specific locale.

While it seems plain to me that EHB's have a great many genetic resources in their proverbial toolbox, it also seems plain to me that there are a good many factors (treating being one of many) that bend the adaptation trajectory. For my part, I only hope my success rivals yours- I would be thrilled with having things on a steady upward slope like you do.

Keep up the good work- I really enjoy reading about your efforts.

Russ


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Well, heredity has something to do with it too (I hope I am a treatment-free bee by birth).


Good points, GregV. Like everything else in life, beekeeping seems to involve a lot of hard work and continued effort to be successful.

I laughed-out-loud at the above comment. FWIW I hope I have 'treatment-free' genes too!


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> His view is that it is stored so fast that the bees can not disperse pollen with it making it not as healthy.


GWW:

Glad you watched the video. Hopefully you felt like it was a good investment. What I enjoyed about the talk is he came at it from more of an observational science perspective. In other words, what can we learn by observing what unmanaged colonies do when left to their own devices?

Once we observe their 'natural' behavior, we can use this information to at least inform our management choices. So this is just a hypothetical (but using your example), maybe the 'healthier' way to feed is to introduce it a little more slowly and a little earlier in the fall when they are still actively hauling pollen in?

I'm not saying you should do this, just I think this is the point he was trying to get across- how might unmanaged bees teach us how to be better stewards of our managed resources, keeping everything (i.e. time, surplus, efficiency) in balance?


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> FWIW- there was no queen cell 48 hours ago so I expect that I have at least 8 days to decide. At this point I may just wait a week and see whether the cell is still viable or has been ripped-open on the side before determining my course of action.


Went by the trap-out at lunch today. The queen cell is still intact, and they have now capped another queen cell at the bottom of the donor frame.

I also heard the distinct sound of 'piping' on the frame. For a moment I was just sure that I had finally coaxed the resident queen out, but after studying the frame intently for a few minutes, I am convinced she was not there. So I am left to conclude that the initial queen cell is now piping, which is curious because:

I donated the frame to the trap-out on July 24th- 8 days ago. Even if we assume that they started with a 4 day old larvae that would mean (as I reckon it at least) that the best-case scenario for emergence would be two days from now. 

So my plan (as of now- feel welcome to offer suggestions) will be to close-off the one-way bee escape tomorrow afternoon assuming that the resident queen has not yet found this piping queen.

In this scenario I figure I can then continue to accumulate bees inside the trap-out until such time that the resident queen comes out or fails due to lack of resources.


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## gww

russ


> Once we observe their 'natural' behavior, we can use this information to at least inform our management choices. So this is just a hypothetical (but using your example), maybe the 'healthier' way to feed is to introduce it a little more slowly and a little earlier in the fall when they are still actively hauling pollen in?
> 
> I'm not saying you should do this, just I think this is the point he was trying to get across- how might unmanaged bees teach us how to be better stewards of our managed resources, keeping everything (i.e. time, surplus, efficiency) in balance?


I got his point. My point was that in managing bees that for some like me "good enough is good enough even if not best".

From and observational point of view, I would still think slow feeding would add up to more brood and bigger clusters going into winter and though healthy, they might also be more likely to be bigger resource users.

I am thinking there are lots of compromising situations in bee keeping and that knowing cause and effect will still help with things you are going to manage and not leave to their own devices. So good to know the reason it might be better for the bees so that you can judge that against what might be best for a selfish bee keeper taking all into account. 

I really only mentioned it so you would know that I recognized that it did make a counter argument to my management style that I put out for the world to see.

So in other words, I do what I do but don't tell you that I am right in what I do, just that I do it and it has worked good enough for me so far. 

I like thinking about the "what if questions" that go with statements and positions that are put forward.

I would mention more on your trap out but am too stupid to do more then watch what you do and think about it after the fact. Learn through you cause it is above my head.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> My point was that in managing bees that for some like me "good enough is good enough even if not best".
> 
> ... watch what you do and think about it after the fact.


GWW:

Thank you for your feedback. I do appreciate it, and I think we are maybe saying the same thing in a different way. I would not advise you to change a thing about what you are doing as it seems you are having about as much success as anyone in this whole TF experiment.

That is why I think it is so important that we observe what others are doing- whether we ever do those things ourselves or not, we can learn certain principles from their efforts that might come in handy in our own management efforts down the road when we want to improve something or run into a new problem.

Thank you for all your help and input- I am grateful whenever you offer advice and suggestions. Let's see what tomorrow brings with the trap-out!


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Let's see what tomorrow brings with the trap-out!


Still no resident queen and still flying by the seat of my pants. The trap-out box has significantly more bees (~4# worth) and still two (2) capped queen cells.

I made the decision to put some #9 hardware cloth over the transition opening so it is now one-way out of the tree and into the box just like a typical trap-out. I had initially planned on closing this opening up completely (conical bee escape notwithstanding), but I thought the prospect of them being able to communicate through the screen might work to my advantage- but maybe not.

I also put some feed on them to hopefully tide them over (and hopefully get a little comb drawn out) while we wait for the resident queen to come out.

In the meantime I may end up with a queen emerging in the trap-out in the next few days, so we will see how that might change the dynamic.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> GregV recently referenced an excellent set of presentations from the 2017 National Honey Show in a discussion about propolis. The two part series is entitled, _“Honey Bees in the Wild”_ and features a message by Mr. Roger Patterson (http://www.dave-cushman.net/) and a message by Dr. Thomas Seeley.


Recently someone posted a video on the Kentucky Beekeepers Association Facebook page regarding book scorpions. A little digging brought me to Dr. Torben Schiffer (https://beenature-project.com/de_DE), who is a frequent participant in the 'Natural Beekeeping Trust'.

At their 2018 _'Learning from the Bees'_ conference he gave a short presentation of this same idea of observing bees' natural behavior to help inform our management. I think some of the charm is the brevity, but he also makes some interesting and thought-provoking anecdotes:

https://www.naturalbeekeepingtrust....vod-video-id=214d6aaa3c05447ea312bd70b7b4c643


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> In the meantime I may end up with a queen emerging in the trap-out in the next few days, so we will see how that might change the dynamic.


The trap-out continues to progress with approximately 5# of bees in the trap-out set-up as of yesterday. I did not take every frame out, but there is now an emerged queen in the trap-out along with significant festooning in place. The one-way bee escape seems to be working nicely and it now seems to be a matter of how long will it take to draw-down the resources within the tree cavity. The trap-out had drawn down a gallon of 1:1 sugar syrup over the weekend so I re-filled the feeder.

At this point I will likely go to twice-weekly visits to monitor traffic in the tunnel between the tree cavity and the trap-out to ascertain when would be an appropriate time to move the colony.

I am somewhat disappointed that I was unable to secure the resident queen, but it was somewhat expected given the time of year.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Still no resident queen and still flying by the seat of my pants. The trap-out box has significantly more bees (~4# worth) and still two (2) capped queen cells.
> 
> I made the decision to put some #9 hardware cloth over the transition opening so it is now one-way out of the tree and into the box just like a typical trap-out. I had initially planned on closing this opening up completely (conical bee escape notwithstanding), but I thought the prospect of them being able to communicate through the screen might work to my advantage- but maybe not.
> 
> I also put some feed on them to hopefully tide them over (and hopefully get a little comb drawn out) while we wait for the resident queen to come out.
> 
> In the meantime I may end up with a queen emerging in the trap-out in the next few days, so we will see how that might change the dynamic.
> 
> View attachment 50509
> View attachment 50511
> View attachment 50513
> View attachment 50515


hmmm a bee trapper and photographer, Russ you are just 1 trap out from having your own trap-out thread. looks like fun. Thanks for the photos, seems with the guidance here, I too could do this at home.

Any way to get a little hole drilled into the top of the nest in the tree and dribble in some of that "bee gone" fume board stuff? Maybe chase the queen and the last few out? With out water and nectar they may be in rough shape any way.
GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Any way to get a little hole drilled into the top of the nest in the tree and dribble in some of that "bee gone" fume board stuff? Maybe chase the queen and the last few out? With out water and nectar they may be in rough shape any way.
> GG


Gray Goose: Thank you for your feedback. I sincerely appreciate your advice and encouragement. 

The owner of the tree was rather insistent that I not damage the tree in any way while executing the trap-out, thus the use of painter's tape in sealing up the cavity opening. Had this not been a consideration, I might have used this as an opportunity to experiment with a forced abscond, given the seasonal timing.

Part of my rationale for using the screen-wire rather than a solid cover over the transition is that it (at least in theory) affords the trap-out bees the opportunity to feed other bees (i.e. the queen) until such time as I arrive and can escort her into her new home. With a queen in the trap-out now, this becomes less plausible.

At this point, my plan will be to look for signs of eggs in the trap-out and signs of little to no traffic in the transition as the cues to relocate the colony.

In the meantime, I will periodically (likely weekly) give the trap-out supplemental feed to keep them in a comb-building state of mind. Time will tell if this is a good idea or not...

Thank you again for your feedback. I sincerely hope your season is closing-out successfully.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> At this point I will likely go to twice-weekly visits to monitor traffic in the tunnel between the tree cavity and the trap-out to ascertain when would be an appropriate time to move the colony.


Went by the trap-out this afternoon. They are busy drawing out quite a jag of comb and of course they started at the top, filling in the frameless void created by the male transition piece and attaching it to the bottom of the hive top feeder.

Given that it is late in the season, I elected to leave it in place- expecting that if I tear it down they will just build it right back and knowing that I can let them overwinter in the trap-out box just as well as a non-modified box.

Still no queen, but there were noticeably fewer bees in the 'tunnel' and a few dozen foragers were frantically searching for a way back into the tree. I expect things are getting fairly desperate in the tree by now.

At this juncture, I will likely visit weekly for the next few weeks (feeding while there) until I see eggs/fresh brood in the trap-out and limited transition traffic to determine the best time to bring them home.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> As an aside, the 'bad guys' showed up at the 'bee tree' late last week looking for a way in to rob it out- very distinctly marked. Looks like a skunk has been looking for a way in too.


Meanwhile things are very quiet at the former home of Hive #1911 (the 'bee tree' at my office). I had observed about two week's worth of heavy attempted robbing activity but can only assume that the foragers have given up on robbing the tree out.

As such, I decided to experiment with whether the distinctive fermenting honey scent of this cavity will be an effective swarm lure this spring. To that end, I have left the trap-out set-up in place along with the drawn comb on the screened inner cover while making the transition to the tree 'bee-proof' by covering it with screen wire.

My thought (flawed as it might be) is this might allow the tree cavity scent to migrate into the trap-out box and attract the notice of house hunters in the spring.

Time will tell.


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## Litsinger

Here in Western Kentucky we have a nice little flow of sorts going with the late-planted beans (due to significant Spring rain which kept farmers out of their fields and necessitated their planting beans instead of corn) and Sneezeweed blooming profusely.

Sneezeweed (at least in my specific locale) is a huge pollen source for the bees as they haul it in by the truckload and it lasts for a few weeks.

I suspect that #1906 has gone queenless, so I will continue to monitor them and shake them out if/when it becomes prudent.

While the caught swarms I have show a wide range of sizes and markings, today was the first time I had noticed drones that are obviously anatomically smaller. There were several returning to #1902.


----------



## Litsinger

I continue to think through the implications of a 'management by box' approach to my Langstroth hives, incorporating the idea of systematic comb renewal.

My initial thought had been to incorporate nadiring and move boxes 'up and out'.

Early in the season, I had given up on the prospect of #1803 and #1804 drawing out the empty boxes I had installed directly above the bottom board and I began thinking through other strategies.

Much to my surprise, my last check inside these hives found them both busy at work in drawing this box out, starting only after swarm season had passed.

So, I am cautiously optimistic that nadiring may still be a viable option, at least in some circumstances.

My thought now would be:

1. Plan on completing most (or all) surplus honey harvesting in the Fall as a function of winter preps.

2. While harvesting from the top, install a new empty box to the very bottom of the stack, understanding that while this box will not get drawn out for another 6 - 9 months, it might convey some benefit of winter draft-stopping and potentially forestalling some early swarming as a result of crowding (if this is in-fact a cause).

3. Then the normative plan would be to nadir a box (or two) each fall and utilize the removed top box (or boxes) for swarm traps and for supering the hives during heavy flow opportunities (i.e. tulip poplar).

So it becomes something akin to managing Langstroth boxes in a Warre style. The process is generally outlined here:

https://www.thewarrestore.com/supering-a-warre-hive


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I suspect that #1906 has gone queenless, so I will continue to monitor them and shake them out if/when it becomes prudent.


The more I observe bees, the more I realize just how little I understand them.

I have been convinced that #1906 is queenless simply by observing their entrance activity (or lack thereof) as compared to the other colonies in the home yard.

Given that they are in a Warre hive without frames I have been hesitant to dive into them with the brutally hot weather we have been having for fear that I would make a bad situation worse.

I finally decided to cautiously take a look last night after it had cooled off and it was just light enough to see by. As I feared, there was brace comb between the boxes and the combs themselves were like silly putty.

I carefully separated the top box (which was empty) from the box immediately below and found that this colony had drawn out one full box of comb (in the second from top box) and almost two frames in the next box down. Given how much the combs were moving while intact in the box I decided not to press my luck in pulling out any of the drawn frames.

What I could see by inspecting the comb from the top and bottom was there was very little capped anything (brood or nectar) and that the box itself was light. I also observed that there was a pretty healthy population of bees, which was much different from the two queenless colonies I found earlier in the year.

So I concluded that they were starving and I decided it would do little harm to try feeding them to see what happened. I had discovered that the internal width of a Warre is close to the internal width of an 8-frame Langstroth so I was able to adapt a hive-top Langstroth feeder to the hive with little effort.

What a difference this made- while they are only modestly taking in the sugar syrup, this hive is now busily foraging and there is a fair bit of pollen coming in.

So while I am still not ready to declare them queenright, this experience did seem to suggest one of two possibilities (at least that I can see):

1. This colony was truly starving and it hadn't the internal resources to allow foragers to leave in force in an attempt to recover.

2. This colony is genetically-disposed to evoke a hard brood and foraging break during dearth periods and thus was currently constituted of a population which was unable to take advantage of the (odd-timed) soybean flow that the other colonies are currently working.

Like I said, I don't really know- I literally learn/observe something new almost every day.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> At this juncture, I will likely visit weekly for the next few weeks (feeding while there) until I see eggs/fresh brood in the trap-out and limited transition traffic to determine the best time to bring them home.


Went by the trap-out today and I am ready to declare it a success. There are fresh eggs and zero bees in the transition. The tree cavity itself is also dead quiet.

The comb they have drawn from the bottom of the hive-top feeder is impressive- they have almost completely filled the empty volume which is created by the portion of the male transition which projects into the inside of the hive body such that when I pull off the feeder I have four sections of comb of various lengths attached to the bottom of the feeder which run parallel with the frames and are beginning to fill with nectar, pollen and eggs. I would have taken a photo but I feared turning the feeder on its end and possibly destroying all their hard work- so you'll just have to take my word for it.

Lots of pollen coming in and it appears they have established regular order within the trap-out, so my plan will be to bring them home next weekend after dusk.


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## gww

Got to love it when a plan comes together.
gww


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## JWPalmer

Good job Russ.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Got to love it when a plan comes together.
> gww





JWPalmer said:


> Good job Russ.


GWW and JW:

Thank you both for the kind words. The reality is that I have much yet to learn and owe any and all of the current success to good folks like you two who have been kind enough to invest in my progress. I appreciate you both.

One thing I can say with two trap-outs under my belt is that neither one went even remotely the way I planned so it has taught me that you have to be both persistent and willing to adapt to whatever contingencies come your way.

Also, there is no doubt I have spent more in time, fuel and duct tape than either colony would be worth monetarily, so it is something I would recommend only if someone can derive intrinsic satisfaction in the process itself.

Thank you both again for your generosity. Have a great weekend.

Russ


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## clong

Litsinger said:


> Went by the trap-out today and I am ready to declare it a success. There are fresh eggs and zero bees in the transition. The tree cavity itself is also dead quiet.
> 
> The comb they have drawn from the bottom of the hive-top feeder is impressive- they have almost completely filled the empty volume which is created by the portion of the male transition which projects into the inside of the hive body such that when I pull off the feeder I have four sections of comb of various lengths attached to the bottom of the feeder which run parallel with the frames and are beginning to fill with nectar, pollen and eggs. I would have taken a photo but I feared turning the feeder on its end and possibly destroying all their hard work- so you'll just have to take my word for it.
> 
> Lots of pollen coming in and it appears they have established regular order within the trap-out, so my plan will be to bring them home next weekend after dusk.
> 
> View attachment 50745


Russ,

As has already been said, great job! It will be fun to see how this hive performs going forward.

This might be a little late, but have you seen this article?

https://www.honeybeesuite.com/the-price-trap-out-no-bee-left-behind/


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> .... so my plan will be to bring them home next weekend after dusk.
> View attachment 50745


Congratulations!
Good to have a trap-out expert in residence.
Never know when need a consult.


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## Litsinger

clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> As has already been said, great job! It will be fun to see how this hive performs going forward.
> 
> This might be a little late, but have you seen this article?
> 
> https://www.honeybeesuite.com/the-price-trap-out-no-bee-left-behind/


CLong:

Thank you for your reply. I sincerely appreciate it! I also appreciate you posting the article, as I had not seen this one.

As one of the comments below the article stated, I fail to see any distinction between the 'Price trap-out' procedure and Mr. Hogan's but it is a great write-up as to the general Hogan trap-out process.

One thing that Rusty alludes to in the article but doesn't elaborate upon is the idea of one-way versus two-way flow between the cavity and the trap-out. 

I have concluded (with but little experience) that it is important to allow the transition to remain two-way traffic for a few days after installation of the brood box.

Not only is there a significant flow of bees from the tree to the box, but Mr. Hogan states it is unlikely that the queen will be able to travel through the one-way bee cone- so if she does come down early in the process, having an open transition makes successfully transitioning her to your trap-out box more likely.

Also, just like most things in beekeeping I expect that timing is everything. This Summer trap-out has developed much differently than the Spring trap-out. I would expect the best time for this type of effort is after the chance of significant chilled brood has passed (i.e. putting open brood in your trap-out) but before/during prime swarm season when the colony is in population build-up mode.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Congratulations!
> Good to have a trap-out expert in residence.
> Never know when need a consult.


Thank you, GregV. No expert here, but it has been fun and interesting to watch these develop... and I am always glad to offer what little advice that I might have.

FWIW I decided to hold on moving them this weekend given how hot it is forecasted to be. I'll plan on feeding them 2X a week and move them after daytime highs settle down into the 80's here in the next few weeks.


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## Litsinger

On another topic, there has been a discussion recently on _Bee-L_ regarding 'Darwinian Beekeeping'. Part of this meandering discussion has focused on the impact of drift on disease proliferation:

https://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=BEE-L;d4d851d.1908&S=

Recently, the discussion questioned whether pesticides might be contributing to an impaired navigation function for foragers and thus increasing drift. A recent reply by Mr. Randy Oliver really caught my attention and made me again wonder if robbing screens should be standard equipment for our colonies- particularly in a TF context? 

Randy's reply:

_"No pesticides in my area. We marked 6,000 bees in some hives collapsing from varroa/DWV and recovered the marked bees from other hives at distances up to over a mile. I will be publishing the results soon.

We found very large drift to a group of hives 500 ft away, substantial drift to an apiary 1/2 mile distant, and some drift to 1 mile. Of interest was that there was just as much drift of bees from a healthy control hive without varroa.

I'm as curious as you as to why they drift to distant hives. I strongly suspect that olfaction is involved. I have no idea whether they simply get lost, and drift to the odor of hives upwind, or whether during foraging flights they investigate other hives and don't get stopped by guards."_


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> The more I observe bees, the more I realize just how little I understand them.
> 
> I have been convinced that #1906 is queenless simply by observing their entrance activity (or lack thereof) as compared to the other colonies in the home yard.
> 
> ...
> 
> Like I said, I don't really know- I literally learn/observe something new almost every day.


WOW did I mess up today (thus proving my own point).

It has finally cooled-off a bit here in Western Kentucky so I decided to dive-into #1906 to see what was going on. In retrospect I should have just left them alone...

I have been feeding them pretty steadily over the past few weeks and the first thing I observed was that the top box remained empty- I figured this was an ominous sign.

I then took off the second box, which was now heavy with nectar but I could not see any capped cells looking from above or below.

Finally, I looked in the bottom box and saw they were busy drawing out drone-sized cells in there- "Aha" I say- "they are queenless".

So, I set about to shake them out, moving the boxes into a somewhat remote location and commencing to tearing them down. As predicted, the full top-bar frames in the brood nest are braced together and 1-2 and 7-8 respectively are one continuous nectar comb.

On a whim, I decide to pull the brood nest apart and I am horrified to find a small patch of brood and the queen on one of the center three frames...

So I quickly salvaged what I could into a single box and put them back in their original location, leaving the remaining carnage for the bees to clean up.

I am frustrated with myself and with the limitations of top bar comb for efficient inspections.

I suppose I will leave them in this single box until dark to see if they can restore some semblance of order before I decide what to do next.


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## GregB

> I am frustrated with....... the limitations of top bar comb for efficient inspections.


Look here how the modern "tree-hollow" hives work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tuss2KxkzU

If anything, this is what I will do (a variant of the same).
Working with a pure Warre is truly a pain (unless you truly run it as a log hive - set it and forget it and run as a pseudo-feral unit - then working by a box is sufficient if you even manage that far).


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Working with a pure Warre is truly a pain (unless you truly run it as a log hive - set it and forget it and run as a pseudo-feral unit - then working by a box is sufficient if you even manage that far).


Good point, GregV. I am guilty of breaking my own rule of maintaining these Warre hives as 'genetic resources'. In this case, I thought I could "help" and look where that got me. I should have just left them well-enough alone as I had planned all along.

I did manage to get 80% of the frames wired back to the top bars with sandwich bag twist ties and I gave them all the top bar comb I could scrounge up before I buttoned them up.

As of this afternoon they still look a little disoriented but there is pollen incoming and they are much more defensive than usual so I am hopeful I didn't roll the queen when hurriedly putting humpty dumpty back together. We'll see if they are able to successfully recover from my ineptitude.

BTW- Thank you for sharing the video- what size are the frames are they using? Those boxes look even smaller than a standard Warre box?

Thanks again for your feedback.

Russ


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ....what size are the frames are they using? Those boxes look even smaller than a standard Warre box?
> 
> Thanks again for your feedback.
> 
> Russ
> 
> View attachment 50897
> View attachment 50899


They are using these specifications (pg. 37 - frame specs)
View attachment УДАВ(1).pdf


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> They are using these specifications (pg. 37 - frame specs)
> View attachment 50901


Thanks GregV. So 'Google Translate' may have let me down, but I get the sense that this is called an 'Alpine' hive and it is styled after a Delon hive?

If my math is correct, the frames themselves are about half the area of a modified Warre frame and the internal volume of each box is about 20% smaller?


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thanks GregV. So 'Google Translate' may have let me down, but I get the sense that this is called an 'Alpine' hive and it is styled after a Delon hive?
> 
> If my math is correct, the frames themselves are about half the area of a modified Warre frame and the internal volume of each box is about 20% smaller?


Some call this "Alpine" hive, indeed.
But the original UDAV-hive inventor (the author of the PDF book) is not living in the mountains, but in rather mainstream, North-East Russia region.
So the Delon's climate-stable hive is properly called the Alpine and depends on a taller frame (with the box being the same 300mm x 300mm, but also taller to match the frame).

The hive specifications presented here should be called exactly that - UDAV (not Alpine).

The UDAV author deliberately made his frame more shallow (and, consequently, the box) and insists on this size for his region.
This is to allow for "by-the-box" management style and also to make the box-increment as small as practically possible - a box is compatible to two standard Dadant frames by the comb area.
Adding a box is equivalent to adding two Dadant frames - gradual enough (especially critical during the early spring colony expansion).

....(AND also to be exactly 1/4 of the standard Dadant frame - a practical choice for efficient Dadant foundation usage - once sheet of Dadant foundation cuts into 4 small frames).

For more Southern destinations, the frame can be made somewhat larger the author concedes - taller be exact. 
But only by 1-2 inches, he stipulates - so to remain truly "by-the-box" managed hive - which I appreciate more now (due to current working with my hybrid hives where 10-frame Lang medium full of honey is, eh...., way to heavy for my liking; .....half-full Lang box I can manage, but then what is the point of such box?)

As for me, I concluded, I want to modify existing Lang med frames to - 12 1/2" x 6 1/4" (make the top bar shorter).
This will be my standard small frame to be used in honey supers and/or "tree-hollow" hives.
My standard large frame is - 12 1/2" x 17 3/4 " (defined by two medium Lang frames tied together).

12 1/2" ~ 300 mm - essential standard frame width of all tree-hollow hives and heritage long hives (Delon, UDAV, and similar vertical variants; Ukrainian, Levicki, and similar long variants).
Conveniently, two connected standard Lang medium frames fit perfectly into this exact paradigm - 300mm x 300mm square.
Then the small frame should work into the same dimension, just serve somewhat different use-cases.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> As for me, I concluded, I want to modify existing Lang med frames to - 12 1/2" x 6 1/4" (make the top bar shorter).
> This will be my standard small frame to be used in honey supers and/or "tree-hollow" hives.
> My standard large frame is - 12 1/2" x 17 3/4 " (defined by two medium Lang frames tied together).
> 
> ...
> 
> Conveniently, two connected standard Lang medium frames fit perfectly into this exact paradigm - 300mm x 300mm square.
> Then the small frame should work into the same dimension, just serve somewhat different use-cases.


This makes good sense to me, GregV- at least for the approach you are taking. It seems to offer you a lot of possibilities for adaptation as you work with different hive bodies.

For my part, I am going to stick with the 8-frame medium Langs as my go-to equipment, but it has been helpful and educational to have bees housed in Warre boxes, as I think they seem to give you a more direct sense of the bees internal operations, at least with initial comb building.

I do look forward to continuing to read about your efforts in exploring these compact (and not so compact) vertical hive configurations.


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## Litsinger

Ran by the trap-out this afternoon to give them a final check-out before planning to move them this weekend.

I saw a bee struggling to carry out a dead drone from the robbing screen installed over the lower entrance and decided to remove it to see what was going on.

I found this...















These are the biggest hive beetles I have ever encountered. I cleaned this mess up and left the robbing screen off to hopefully assist them in their clean-up efforts.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Ran by the trap-out this afternoon to give them a final check-out before planning to move them this weekend.
> 
> I saw a bee struggling to carry out a dead drone from the robbing screen installed over the lower entrance and decided to remove it to see what was going on.
> 
> I found this...
> 
> View attachment 50999
> View attachment 51001
> 
> 
> These are the biggest hive beetles I have ever encountered. I cleaned this mess up and left the robbing screen off to hopefully assist them in their clean-up efforts.


may have been in the tree and finally came out looking for food. I guess the trap out would work on other insects in the tree.
Maybe note how long the beetles took to come out. Then you can pull the bees just before the other inhabitants decide to come out as well.
or let it happen, they were together in the tree I presume.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Maybe note how long the beetles took to come out. Then you can pull the bees just before the other inhabitants decide to come out as well.


That's a great idea, GG. I did not observe this mess during my visit this past Friday, so I can note this as a data point for future trap-out efforts.

As always, I appreciate your input- it is a big help.

Russ


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## Litsinger

I know this is old-hat to all you pros, but for all the 'new-bees' like me I wanted to share something that has served me well thus far in the foundationless context- namely hive leveling.

As I prepare to bring home the late-season trap-out I find myself without a place to put them so I spent the afternoon preparing a new location. 

After selecting a place to spot a hive (thus far facing East-Southeast with morning sun and afternoon shade has been best), I begin by clearing-away the organic material in a rectangular area roughly twice the size of the hive stand footprint.

I then use a spade to cut out any roots or other fibrous materials at or near the surface.

Following, I tamp the location to compact the soil.

I then apply approximately a wheelbarrow load of mixed limestone aggregate (around here we call it #67's) in approximately 1" lifts, tamping as I go until the aggregate pad itself is dead-level side-to-side and slightly forward-leaning front-to-back. 

While I can appreciate that not everyone has easy access to limestone, I like using the mixed aggregate with fines in it because it sets-up something akin to concrete and it helps stifle weed growth, at least in the immediate footprint of the hive.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I know this is old-hat to all you pros....


I think I am a pro because I am way beyond what you are doing, Russ.
My way - toss an old tire; drop a couple of 2x4 scraps on top if it - done.
Site ready for a hive.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I think I am a pro because I am way beyond what you are doing, Russ.
> My way - toss an old tire; drop a couple of 2x4 scraps on top if it - done.
> Site ready for a hive.


You are the man, GregV. I hope to be like you when I climb the steep mountain of bee knowledge .

In all seriousness I do recognize and appreciate there are many perfectly good ways to set-up hives (old tires and scrap lumber included)- just wanted to underscore the importance of hive leveling during set-up for those new folks like me who are experimenting with foundationless.

I have already learned the hard way how difficult it is (relatively speaking) to correct a hive after bees are in it versus before they are on location...


----------



## JWPalmer

Greg, that is funny because I have a swarm trap (10 frame hive) in the woods at a customer's house, sitting on an old tire. And I thought I was the only real cheapskate out there.


----------



## AR1

JWPalmer said:


> Greg, that is funny because I have a swarm trap (10 frame hive) in the woods at a customer's house, sitting on an old tire. And I thought I was the only real cheapskate out there.


Far from the only one...
Never really bothered leveling a hive. But I use foundation.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> You are the man, GregV. .......just wanted to underscore the *importance of hive leveling* during set-up for those new folks like me who are experimenting with foundationless.
> 
> I have already learned the hard way how difficult it is (relatively speaking) to correct a hive after bees are in it versus before they are on location...


I donno.
I just eyeball it and swing it, will say "abracadabra", and call it done. 
It works.
There is a little aluminum level (picked up by the road somewhere) burred somewhere deep in my beekeeping backpack - I don't know where it is in there - I have not used it once.

Have to say, of course, now days I got plenty of existing comb so to direct the bees to a right thing.

This is one thing holding me back from going vertical hard - that leveling issue if you go narrow/vertical stack.


----------



## GregB

JWPalmer said:


> Greg, that is funny because I have a swarm trap (10 frame hive) in the woods at a customer's house, sitting on an old tire. And I thought I was the only real cheapskate out there.


Heck, I am pro dumpster diver.
If I see a tire laying by the road, I will not sleep well until I go and get it.
Big truck tires are the best; if it has the rim inside still - even better.
And I already know a yard and site the next tire will go to (gradually lifting all my rotting pallets onto the tires).


----------



## gww

russ
I start with level side to side and the hive leaning forward. I do use a level most times. I doubt I stay level due to legs sinking in the ground and my leveling being done with shims that I can knock out when moving things around. I still get cross comb or wondering comb once in a while. It usually works out with out too much fuss. I like your ideal of starting as close to good as possible.
cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> And I thought I was the only real cheapskate out there.





AR1 said:


> Far from the only one...





GregV said:


> Heck, I am pro dumpster diver.


I enjoyed these replies and it is good to know that frugality seems to be a part of the psyche of beekeeping. For my part, I have still not figured out how to monetize any aspect of this hobby, so I am always looking for an opportunity to minimize my investment (at least in $$). Might have to start keeping an eye out for old tires and rims.

Thank you all for the feedback.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I doubt I stay level due to legs sinking in the ground and my leveling being done with shims that I can knock out when moving things around.


GWW: 

Thank you for your reply- I completely identify with this, and still resort to putting hives any old place and putting whatever is handy under them for shims. Inevitably, I trip over the projecting part of the shim and occasionally completely dislodge it- usually causing me to mutter some ugly words.

Beyond this, if I've used wood it starts to rot which causes that corner to sink.

So I still resort to this approach when I have to, but when I have the luxury of time I like to prepare a firm and level foundation in advance to help stave-off problems in the future. I am often painfully reminded of the old proverb about a stitch in time... when fixing a mess I should have taken care of on the front-side.

Glad to see your post- I hope everything is going great in your yard about now.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ....... I have still not figured out how to monetize any aspect of this hobby, so I am always looking for an opportunity to minimize my investment (at least in $$).........Russ


Me too!
Me too!
I keep telling wife how one day I will start selling few bees to recoup the expenditures.

In fact, someone already asked about my TF bees for sale (seriously too) - not selling (yet) - I am in it for a long game.
The product is not ready until the general bee population around becomes more sustainable - that is the real game to be played - then you can sell into the general public AND bees will stay afloat.

But for now I am looking into recouping the invested time (LOTs of it) and few $$ spent for the tools - just in food payback.
I pretty much insist the kids eat my honey with my own home-baked bread - they don't mind ('cause the stuff is gooooood).
More importantly, eco-clean bee bread and drone extract are impossible to find - so I have those, home-made - these last items was all along my original premise to get back into this hassle with the bees (knowing full well it would be a mess - it is).

That being said, minimizing the $$ amounts spent is pretty much mandatory BUT surprisingly easy to achieve too.
This season - this is just gas burned for transportation - my expense.
Not too much of it either.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> I enjoyed these replies and it is good to know that frugality seems to be a part of the psyche of beekeeping. For my part, I have still not figured out how to monetize any aspect of this hobby, so I am always looking for an opportunity to minimize my investment (at least in $$). Might have to start keeping an eye out for old tires and rims.
> 
> Thank you all for the feedback.
> 
> Russ


old tire and 2 pieces of wood the same thickness or different if not level make a good bee hive stand, up to a point with weight. Rims work for NUC stands.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> old tire and 2 pieces of wood the same thickness or different if not level make a good bee hive stand, up to a point with weight. Rims work for NUC stands.


I keep up to 5 Lang medium boxes equivalent just like that - on a single tire.
That is probably the safe max - a top-heavy with honey hive this year is a little tipsy (but I know - there are no cows or bears present - so not too worried).
But pretty much I will not even build hives above the 5 med boxes anyway, they way I do it.

16-frame long hives are very stable on a single tire (of appropriate size tire).

Of course, 2-3 tires in a row and board spanned across make much more robust base.
I need more tires!

Which reminds me - someone dumped few tires by a pond near by and I need to check it out. 
Some people!
I could use more tires, but why dump!


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> old tire and 2 pieces of wood the same thickness or different if not level make a good bee hive stand, up to a point with weight. Rims work for NUC stands.





GregV said:


> I keep up to 5 Lang medium boxes equivalent just like that - on a single tire.
> 
> I need more tires!


So which work better, bias or radial? :lookout: 

In all seriousness, I respect your ingenuity and resourcefulness- I would not have even considered tires had you all not offered it up as an option.


----------



## JWPalmer

Regarding the frugality of beekeepees, gww I think, started a thread a while back encouraging folks to brag about whatever they had scrounged. It was an entertaing thread and some of the stuff acquired on the cheap (free) was pretty amazing.


----------



## gww

Jw
I did not start the thread but I did thoroughly enjoy it.
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...e-today-Braggin-encouraged&highlight=scrounge
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> Regarding the frugality of beekeepees, gww I think, started a thread a while back encouraging folks to brag about whatever they had scrounged. It was an entertaing thread and some of the stuff acquired on the cheap (free) was pretty amazing.





gww said:


> Jw
> I did not start the thread but I did thoroughly enjoy it.
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...e-today-Braggin-encouraged&highlight=scrounge
> Cheers
> gww


Gents:

Thank you for making me aware of the post- it was a good read, and I won't lie that I was a little jealous about some of the posts... but I got over it.

You all have a great Labor Day weekend.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Ran by the trap-out this afternoon to give them a final check-out before planning to move them this weekend.


With the very capable help of my lovely wife, I was able to get the trap-out successfully relocated last night to the home yard. They were christened #1912.

It was interesting to study the tree cavity devoid of bees and recognize that it might have only been the equivalent of 10 - 15 liters in volume.

I also discovered that leaving Freeman beetle trays installed but without liquid in them is like installing a pollen trap. What's worse, the bees can't get down there to it, so it became a great habitat for small hive beetle larvae. This methinks was the source of the mess I found earlier in the week- it is a minor miracle that they have not been slimed-out.

I installed them on a new bottom board and put oil in the tray this time. I noted quite a slug of beetles had already been caught this morning.

So this brings the home yard up to twelve (12) colonies (Seven (7) Langstroth / Five (5) Warre):

Two (2) overwintered colonies

Two (2) inherited colonies

Two (2) trap-out colonies

Three (3) baited swarm colonies

Three (3) hived swarm colonies

I have also lost two (2) colonies (one (1) inherited colony and one (1) baited colony that were both found queenless) thus far. 



























At this point, I suppose I begin looking ahead to wintering preps given that September is famously called the _'Honey Bee's New Year'_ by the late great Dr. Roger Morse.


----------



## Litsinger

Pulled the oil tray from the recently-relocated #1912 and conducted a 48 hour mite drop count totaling 13.

As mentioned before, I haven't yet enough background information to make meaningful forecasts from these data, but the thought is to record them at least quarterly and attempt to correlate these counts to survival/performance outcomes in the future.


----------



## squarepeg

excellent job on keeping us updated russ.

many thanks for your contributions to the forum.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> many thanks for your contributions to the forum.


Thank you, SP. The feeling is mutual. I sincerely appreciate how generous you are with your time and expertise here on Beesource.


----------



## Litsinger

I recently completed reading the voluminous _‘Pink Pages’_ contributions by the late Mr. George Imirie, from whom we get the eponymous ‘Imirie Shim’. These articles are available at http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/ courtesy of yeoman’s work by Mr. Pete Chrisbacher.

While it should be noted at the outset that the last ‘Pink Page’ was written in 2005, most of George’s writings reflected his extensive interest and experience in colony dynamics, and seem to be just as insightful today.

If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:

1.	One should requeen every colony, every year in the late Summer.

2.	Reversal of the broodnest several times early in the season is imperative to mitigate reproductive swarming.

3.	One should super their colonies early in the season, all at once.

4.	Related to (1 - 3)- Early supplemental feeding of 1:1 sugar water and pollen substitute is helpful to have the necessary forager strength to take fullest advantage of the Spring flow.

5.	Upper entrances are beneficial for overwintering survival due to their ability to mitigate condensation build-up.

6.	Frames of drawn comb are the beekeeper’s most valuable possession.

7.	Successful beekeeping requires different management than what was employed prior to the tracheal and varroa mite.

8.	Be a beeKEEPER rather than a beeHAVER.

9.	Avoid anthropomorphic thinking when considering colony dynamics.

10.	Miscellaneous musings.

Over the next several weeks, I will plan on outlining his thoughts on these principles in further detail and consider what their implications might be in a TF setting.

In closing, I admire George’s contributions to our knowledge of successful beekeeping, especially when one discovers how tirelessly he continued to advocate for bees and educate their havers despite significant and progressive health struggles which left him unable to walk, unable to speak (for quite some time) and blind in one eye. In his own words:

_I am NOT a pioneer like Langstroth, an author like Roger Morse, a teacher like Dewey Caron or Mark Winston, a bee researcher like Laidlaw or Page, a queen breeder like Reg Wilbanks, or a bee race DEVELOPER like Sue Cobey and her NEW WORLD CARNIOLANS. Rather, I am just a simple OLD atomic scientist who wants to know MORE about apis mellifera, because they fascinate me; and GIVE my findings to you.

Being blind in one eye and hence unskilled in sports and unpleasant in appearance, I was highly encouraged from grade school on to aspire to be a straight A student and spend every waking hour to gain additional education, which I did, and that effort resulted in my work on the Manhattan Project of producing the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs, and my fortune of being mentored by perhaps America's greatest bee expert, Dr. James I. Hambleton, Chief Apiculturist of the U.S. from 1922-1966, who "put me under his wing" in May of 1933. During those days of the Great Depression from 1929-1938, I learned to be educated, responsible, attentive, inquiring, always seeking, accepting scientists reports and rejecting layman's "old wive's tales", and generally "being DIFFERENT than most other people".

Never a "joiner" of associations or clubs due to my blind eye, I FOUNDED the present MCBA, with no officers, no directors, no bylaws or constitution, no parties, no door prizes, BUT an instructional, learning meeting 11 months out of each year, no December meeting.

Now, 20 years later [in 2004], MCBA has the largest membership of any of the other 12 Maryland Bee Associations, and the ONLY bee association in the ENTIRE United States with more than TWO Master Beekeepers, and MCBA has TEN Master Beekeepers! ****, I AM SO PROUD! All 10 of these people can speak, talk, or demonstrate about bees EQUALLY with today's best bee scientists!

Although not retired as I have been for many years, these 10 have the same up-to-date, scientific knowledge about bees that l have, and they have a VOICE that is not disabled, and they can walk and demonstrate without assistance. I am sure you will be in GOOD hands when I leave you.

I am so reminded of what my great hero, General George Patton, said about war: "God, I love it" Likewise, I can say that about my 72 years of beeKEEPING, NEVER beeHAVING: "God, I love it."_


----------



## AR1

Regarding point #2 above, I plan on aggressively splitting next Spring to avoid swarming. It is seeming to work well this year to keep mites down, at least so far. Zero mites in the wash. We will see if any hives survive winter. I have 5 now, one with no queen but verified today it has a queen cell, so even though late may be Okay, or can be combined. This winder will be a big 'build nucs' season with hopes for next Spring.

I'm still new at this, every year is an experiment, and next year will be playing with maximum expansion via splitting.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> I recently completed reading the voluminous _‘Pink Pages’_ contributions by the late Mr. George Imirie, from whom we get the eponymous ‘Imirie Shim’. These articles are available at http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/ courtesy of yeoman’s work by Mr. Pete Chrisbacher.
> 
> While it should be noted at the outset that the last ‘Pink Page’ was written in 2005, most of George’s writings reflected his extensive interest and experience in colony dynamics, and seem to be just as insightful today.
> 
> If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:
> 
> 1.	One should requeen every colony, every year in the late Summer.
> 
> 2.	Reversal of the broodnest several times early in the season is imperative to mitigate reproductive swarming.
> 
> 3.	One should super their colonies early in the season, all at once.
> 
> 4.	Related to (1 - 3)- Early supplemental feeding of 1:1 sugar water and pollen substitute is helpful to have the necessary forager strength to take fullest advantage of the Spring flow.
> 
> 5.	Upper entrances are beneficial for overwintering survival due to their ability to mitigate condensation build-up.
> 
> 6.	Frames of drawn comb are the beekeeper’s most valuable possession.
> 
> 7.	Successful beekeeping requires different management than what was employed prior to the tracheal and varroa mite.
> 
> 8.	Be a beeKEEPER rather than a beeHAVER.
> 
> 9.	Avoid anthropomorphic thinking when considering colony dynamics.
> 
> 10.	Miscellaneous musings.
> 
> Over the next several weeks, I will plan on outlining his thoughts on these principles in further detail and consider what their implications might be in a TF setting
> 
> I am so reminded of what my great hero, General George Patton, said about war: "God, I love it" Likewise, I can say that about my 72 years of beeKEEPING, NEVER beeHAVING: "God, I love it."[/I]



Thanks Russ for the overview. items 1 thru 5 have been in debate for many years. I do whole heartily agree with #6. I swapped brood boxes, then I did not then I did, and currently do not. As far as the requeen every year, IMO that has more to do with the Queens you use than the needed activity for beekeepers. I like to see if a queen "can" make 2 winters. IMO that is a good genetic line. For me to get into a line of bees needing requeening every year would not really be a place I want to end up. I like a some what hands off approach. I try to understand what the bees would have done 1000 years ago , and resist MBA type mandates that trend whole cloth the other way. This year for example, I sold my home packed up, fixed the old place, sold , unpacked, fixed some new home issues. Basically did not have time to be "tinkering" with my bees. I'll have a bit more honey than last year and I have several more hives. If I need to reverse and requeen and, and it would have been a disaster. As I can do hands off, and needed to , IMO it worked out well. For max production Yes I would requeen, if tracking in my Geo the box swap showed less swarming I would maybe do it . For me it did not seem to help, took time, at times resulted in Chilled brood, at time added pollen to the other Box, loosing some cells for brood rearing. 
Always looking at the "Way" others do the keeping, I pick out what seems to at a gut feel level make sense and try it. Keeping local trends in mind as well, the type of bee I have.
GG


----------



## gww

I did notice that MR Imirie had no issue killing bees that he decided he had no more use for as well as spending to save if it made sense. He knew bees but based decisions on the money of it. 

The above is actually based on whether I can really read or not and may not truly reflect what he was trying to say. This is my take.
Cheers
gww


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I recently completed reading the voluminous _‘Pink Pages’_ contributions by the late Mr. George Imirie, from whom we get the eponymous ‘Imirie Shim’. These articles are available at http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/ courtesy of yeoman’s work by Mr. Pete Chrisbacher.
> 
> While it should be noted at the outset that the last ‘Pink Page’ was written in 2005, most of George’s writings reflected his extensive interest and experience in colony dynamics, and seem to be just as insightful today.
> 
> If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:
> 
> 1.	One should requeen every colony, every year in the late Summer........


I don't know.
Immediately, I don't like the #1 and will not follow it (and few other points).
Unreasonable BeeHAVER that I am and will be.
Oh well.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> GWW:
> 
> Thank you for your reply- I completely identify with this, and still resort to putting hives any old place and putting whatever is handy under them for shims. Inevitably, I trip over the projecting part of the shim and occasionally completely dislodge it- usually causing me to mutter some ugly words.
> 
> Beyond this, if I've used wood it starts to rot which causes that corner to sink.
> 
> So I still resort to this approach when I have to, but when I have the luxury of time I like to prepare a firm and level foundation in advance to help stave-off problems in the future. I am often painfully reminded of the old proverb about a stitch in time... when fixing a mess I should have taken care of on the front-side.
> 
> Glad to see your post- I hope everything is going great in your yard about now.
> 
> Russ


keep your eyes out for some concrete blocks. the 4 x 8 x 16 are the "premium" ones, use the large flat surface for the first ground level layer. sinking is all about pounds per square foot, think High heel shoes VRS snow shoes in the soft snow. the 1.5 x 16 x 16 also work well but are hard to find for free.
I also use the standard 8 x 8 x 16, which are heaver to play with but eaiser to find. If you are "wood based" fasten a treated 2 x 6 flat way to the 2 legs on one end, like a 3 foot piece. Its all about the surface area, strive to increase it to reduce the sinking stand leg scenario. With free stuff  even better
GG


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I'm still new at this, every year is an experiment, and next year will be playing with maximum expansion via splitting.





Gray Goose said:


> Always looking at the "Way" others do the keeping, I pick out what seems to at a gut feel level make sense and try it. Keeping local trends in mind as well, the type of bee I have.





gww said:


> He knew bees but based decisions on the money of it.





GregV said:


> Immediately, I don't like the #1 and will not follow it (and few other points).


Thank you all for your replies. Your feedback helps underscore maybe a bigger point when it comes to evaluating and possibly implementing management practices that have worked for others, namely that of assumptions and objectives.

When considering Mr. Imirie's recommendations, it is helpful in my mind to understand the underlying dynamics which drives them so one can accurately assimilate any of it which might be beneficial to one's particular situation and goals. There is a lot that could be said about this, but in short there are two (2) that I see immediately that are directly germane to his recommendations in a TF context:

1. Assumptions- Mr. Imirie assumes that the reader is maintaining his colonies employing the current best-practices concerning pathogens. So while he was not in favor of prophylactic Terramycin treatments, he did advocate for the timely and appropriate chemical management of Nosema and both tracheal and varroa mites using the latest and best industry-standard treatment protocols. That said, he did often write wistfully about the day when 'hygenic bees' would be the standard.

2. Objectives- Mr. Imirie offers his recommendations on the primary basis of maximizing marketable honey production in a consistent and repeatable fashion. As such, he is attempting to provide the necessary background knowledge to the serious hobby beekeeper to help them adopt some of the research-based management efforts employed by commercial beekeepers.

So while I will save my thoughts on each of his recommendations for a later date when I have more time to compose a thoughtful critique, I am attempting to consider how each might be:

1. Potentially helpful in a TF context and/or particular management approach.

2. Potentially harmful in a TF context and/or particular management approach.

3. Fixed regardless of the management style or objectives (i.e. a structural component of colony dynamics).


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> keep your eyes out for some concrete blocks.
> 
> With free stuff  even better


Gray Goose:

Thank you much for your feedback. I really appreciate it! I may end up breaking-down and going with the CMU block route, but I have enjoyed the luxury of the purpose-built hive stands thus far.

That said, as I consider maintaining these 'set it and forget it' Warre hives, I hate 'wasting' a good Langstroth hive stand on an essentially non-managed colony.

I do always appreciate your helpful input, and I hope your beekeeping year has been successful all the way around thus far.

Russ


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Gray Goose:
> 
> Thank you much for your feedback. I really appreciate it! I may end up breaking-down and going with the CMU block route, but I have enjoyed the luxury of the purpose-built hive stands thus far.
> 
> That said, as I consider maintaining these 'set it and forget it' Warre hives, I hate 'wasting' a good Langstroth hive stand on an essentially non-managed colony.
> 
> I do always appreciate your helpful input, and I hope your beekeeping year has been successful all the way around thus far.
> 
> Russ


I think it has been a good year. I was distracted by changing homes, bought , sold, moved. I still managed to get 10 new hives up at my new house and split one Apairy from 6 to 9 and the other Apairy from 2 to 5. And It looks like 20 or so supers are getting pulled this weekend. For the stand sinking issue. Scrape out a bit of dirt and place the block like 3 inches into the dirt, by making the holes a different depth you level the "base" which is 4 8 x 16 inch spots, then set the stand you have on the pads. or you can fill different depths but the goal is to have the pads level. For your set it and forget it, hives is there a way to harvest honey or are you only getting swarms at this point? For me only swarms is a little lean on output, as some will dead out in the winter so after you gain those back you have true gain.
GG


----------



## Gray Goose

1. Assumptions- Mr. Imirie assumes that the reader is maintaining his colonies employing the current best-practices concerning pathogens. So while he was not in favor of prophylactic Terramycin treatments, he did advocate for the timely and appropriate chemical management of Nosema and both tracheal and varroa mites using the latest and best industry-standard treatment protocols. That said, he did often write wistfully about the day when 'hygenic bees' would be the standard.

Hi Russ,
to the assumptions you can add Hive type. you really do not reverse the boxes on a Layens hive and how exactually would you requeen your Warre Hives? Seems he is "commercial and Lang" which has many attached assumptions. As well some consider an annual re queen to be a "treatment"
It reads to me with out much more than your assessment he is maximizing production ie commercial, and into reversing, so vertical and likely Lang.
there are piles of "recommendations" for Lang in the annals of time, starting with many of the names you mentioned. As Well toss in the time vector, as he states he was worried about triacial mites for a bit and now we do not. It is likely in 10 years we have other bigger concerns. enjoy reading your growth process. and thanks for writing out the thought stream. I wish I had more time to dig in like you are.
GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I think it has been a good year.
> 
> For your set it and forget it, hives is there a way to harvest honey or are you only getting swarms at this point? For me only swarms is a little lean on output, as some will dead out in the winter so after you gain those back you have true gain.


Gray Goose:

Thank you for your feedback- it sounds like you have had a lot on your plate this year! It also sounds like your beekeeping effort has been successful as well.

Regarding the Warre hives- I could certainly plan on harvesting surplus honey from these colonies. Part of my logic (flawed as it might be) is to invite swarms from these colonies and generally let them operate in a semi-hermetic state so as to not bend the survival dynamics one way or the other too much. This protocol is easier to follow with the top bar arrangement as I despise the mess that inevitably ensues when I pull the boxes apart.

As I've alluded to before- I really don't know what I am doing, but I am trying to learn and adapt as I go.

Thank you again for all your input and advice. I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ...to the assumptions you can add Hive type.
> 
> ...
> 
> As Well toss in the time vector...


Great points, GG. You are exactly right that these recommendations would assume the use of Langstroth hives, and there have been both advances (i.e. tracheal mites) and new challenges (i.e. SHB) which do make some of his recommendations less applicable when applied literally. That said, the principles are still generally applicable when one considers their approach to pathogens in general. This seems like a good jumping off spot to address Recommendation #1...


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:
> 
> 1.	One should requeen every colony, every year in the late Summer.


When evaluating this concept, one must recognize that George believed strongly in two axioms which served as foundation for this recommendation:

1. Beekeepers should utilize the latest research-based approaches to pathogen defense. So while he was not 'anti treatment-free', he was allowing the emerging science of his time to drive his decision-making.

2. Bee breeding should be left to the experts. This recommendation presupposes that the new queens are coming from closed mating operations that are consistently true-to-type.

For George, he standardized around re-queening with Ms. Sue Cobey's New World Carniolans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYmLoZdkYe0
http://www.honeybeeinsemination.com/home.html

If one takes these points as a given, then the re-queening effort is less driven by the genetics directly and is more focused on fecundity and reduced swarming to maximize honey production. As George writes, 

_WHAT IS THE LIFESPAN OF A QUEEN? THE USEFUL SPAN? There has been reports of queens living as much as 5 years, and many cases of queens lasting 3 years. If one is not upset by swarming, keeping a queen for 2 years is not unusual. However, if you are desirous of high honey production, your colony has to have a high population and not given to swarming, and both of these requirements need the services of a very young queen, only a few months old._

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/2000_Aug_-_What_Do_You_Know_About_Queens.html

For those interested in unlocking genetic defenses for extant and emerging pathogens, it becomes plain that a queen (and her sons for that matter) are potentially more valuable than what can be 'read' in the broodnest. 

So while George cannot refute me here on Beesource, I think his advice today on this issue would stand, with the caveat that beekeepers would be wise to consider employing 'hygenic' bees the moment they have demonstrated consistent viability.

In truth, what commercial bee operator would not jump at the opportunity to re-queen their production colonies once (or even twice) each year with productive queens that demonstrate an innate and indomitable resistance to the current disease vectors which exert significant negative impact on their operation?

So while we wait for the 'holy grail' of resistant bee stock, it appears we have four basic approaches:

1. Pursue conventional approaches to pathogen management.

2. Purchase and integrate close-mated queen stock which demonstrates a modicum of resistance.

3. Implement our own close-mated approach via I.I. or drone saturation.

4. Pursue some iteration of the Bond Method.


----------



## AR1

Re George. Depends on what you want. The big guys want excellent pollinators, gentle, high honey production. Low cost and high output.

I don't care particularly about any of those, except a bit about gentleness. I am okay with modest honey production, slightly spicy attitudes and have no way to measure pollination. My main concern is that my few backyard hives survive this winter. Preferably without treatment but I'm not dogmatic about it. 

Modest inputs for modest gains are good enough for me. I find the posts about mobile beekeeping interesting and informative. Those guys know more than I ever will, but we are not in the same zone. I garden. Farming interests me and I like reading about it, but I'll never buy a tractor.


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## Gray Goose

Hi Russ 
As the discussion about Hive stands is still tingling in the back of my mind. your Warre Hives need a hive stand on "Wheels"  this year as a part of my increase plan I placed new queens with like 3 frames of bees on an existing 2 deep stand and moved the original have away a bit. a fly back split basically. the original hive loose some bees but recovers quickly (2-3 weeks). So maybe a winter project is a "Mobil Warre Stand" you can then do the fly back split on newly raised queen and use the Warre for increase, with out cracking the lid. the most basic would be a lil red wagon


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> Re George. Depends on what you want. The big guys want excellent pollinators, gentle, high honey production. Low cost and high output.
> 
> I don't care particularly about any of those, except a bit about gentleness. I am okay with modest honey production, slightly spicy attitudes and have no way to measure pollination. My main concern is that my few backyard hives survive this winter. Preferably without treatment but I'm not dogmatic about it.
> 
> Modest inputs for modest gains are good enough for me. I find the posts about mobile beekeeping interesting and informative. Those guys know more than I ever will, but we are not in the same zone. I garden. Farming interests me and I like reading about it, but I'll never buy a tractor.


+1

One latest trend that I like.... people are less and less "ashamed" of being bee-havers, of being called a bee-haver.
Good.

I cultivate the same personal niche and will keep doing it AND tell others about it - the low-impact/low-maintenance operator.
Absolutely no reason to NOT be a low-input/low-output type of an operator.
More is NOT better.
Bigger is NOT better.

A couple of years ago I came out on the local chatter as not being ashamed of my bee-haver status.
There was too much of that going on - "I am a beekeeper, but you are a lowly bee-haver; you don't even know how to treat correctly".... sort of commentary.
Enough is enough.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Modest inputs for modest gains are good enough for me. I find the posts about mobile beekeeping interesting and informative. Those guys know more than I ever will, but we are not in the same zone.





GregV said:


> I cultivate the same personal niche and will keep doing it AND tell others about it - the low-impact/low-maintenance operator.
> Absolutely no reason to NOT be a low-input/low-output type of an operator..


AR1 and GregV:

Thank you both for your input. FWIW, I share your philosophical approach and self-identify as a beeHAVER (if the shoe fits, wear it ). Part of the fun and challenge to beekeeping in my opinion (or beeHAVING as the case may be) is considering deeply the thoughts and approaches of the luminaries in our field as they relate to one's specific goals and situation.

So while I have no intention of executing annual re-queening in my little one-horse apiary for the foreseeable future, it has been helpful to me to consider why a commercial operator would employ this method, and how the fundamentals of queen age might manifest themselves in my yard.

Specifically, if I make the conscious decision not to re-queen as a normative management decision, I might expect to see reduced fecundity and higher swarming incidence with the older queens. Knowing and anticipating these truisms might help me be more proactive in my management decisions.

For now, the immediate goal for me is to simply keep colonies alive... all other higher-order management goals are subservient to this at present.

Thank you both again for the input, and have a great weekend!

Russ


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> So maybe a winter project is a "Mobil Warre Stand" you can then do the fly back split on newly raised queen and use the Warre for increase, with out cracking the lid. the most basic would be a lil red wagon


Gray Goose:

In my very humble opinion, this is a BRILLIANT idea. My imagination is already percolating with the prospects of such an approach. I'm thinking of a used big-wheeled appliance truck complete with ratchet straps that allows you to move the whole set-up any given evening with almost no set-up nor tear-down.

Thanks for the great idea- I appreciate guys like you and GregV (among others) who have a gift for thinking outside the box.

Have a great weekend!

Russ


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Gray Goose:
> 
> In my very humble opinion, this is a BRILLIANT idea. My imagination is already percolating with the prospects of such an approach. I'm thinking of a used big-wheeled appliance truck complete with ratchet straps that allows you to move the whole set-up any given evening with almost no set-up nor tear-down.
> 
> Thanks for the great idea- I appreciate guys like you and GregV (among others) who have a gift for thinking outside the box.
> 
> Have a great weekend!
> 
> Russ


Leave the Box Russ, jump out and don't go back. :no:

It is more of a mind that wanders, Gift,, hmmm never looked at it that way.
My dad said I was a dreamer, in his 1960s view of things.

Yes a fly back split per Warre per year is finding a way to use the resource you have. Now to get the buggers thru the winter.
GG


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## AHudd

A cutting torch hand truck comes to mind. They sometimes have large wheels.

Alex


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> It is more of a mind that wanders, Gift,, hmmm never looked at it that way.


GG:

I am determined that some folks (like yourself) are visionaries and some folks (like myself) are tinkers.

Thankfully it takes both to make the world go round and I appreciate people who are able to conceptualize new and novel ideas.

Thanks again for the good input- I really do appreciate it!

Russ


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## Litsinger

AHudd said:


> A cutting torch hand truck comes to mind. They sometimes have large wheels.
> 
> Alex


Alex:

Now this is an even better idea than mine! I appreciate your response. A quick search turned-up a welding cart at Harbor Freight which is 20" wide:

https://www.harborfreight.com/welding-cart-65939.html

With but little modification, something like this could be used for a Warre, 8-Frame or 10-Frame Langstroth footprint.

Good idea!


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## Gray Goose

or chair dolly https://www.schooloutfitters.com/catalog/product_info?pfam_id=PFAM5419&products_id=PRO14244 
or garden wagon https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200640326_200640326
modified hose reel https://www.northerntool.com/shop/t...IgKzzZKR7jwEa4jdDZ7hxBXrLqOT_UTQaAlVBEALw_wcB 

Jack stand dollys http://hi5homes.com/picture/

All used of course, Somebody could make such a thing for stands and Likely sell a few.

I use the garden wagon, sides come off with pins easy. best is a cheap used one with a missing side. Have a "list" and check garage sales.
GG


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## mischief

I'd just like to say that i have enjoyed watching your thread and have learnt alot over the last few months, so thank you.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> use the garden wagon, sides come off with pins easy. best is a cheap used one with a missing side. Have a "list" and check garage sales.
> GG


GG:

These are some great options as well. Your idea of having a list of options to keep an eye out for is smart. Now that you've made me aware of this idea, I am going to have my eyes peeled for prospects locally.

Thanks again for all the help and good input. I am grateful.

Russ


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## Litsinger

mischief said:


> I'd just like to say that i have enjoyed watching your thread and have learnt alot over the last few months, so thank you.


Mischief:

Great to hear from you! I imagine you are gearing-up for Spring just around the corner. How have your bees fared this winter?

I am glad you have learned a lot here- I know I certainly have. I can say without a hint of false humility that to the extent this thread is helpful it is as a result of all the fine folks here on Beesource (like yourself) who have taken the time to share their experiences.

So please feel welcome and invited to comment should you read something and have a question or feel like you have something that contributes to the discussion.

Here's wishing you and your bees the best of success in the coming season (at least in the Southern Hemisphere). Around here, I've got about 30 - 45 days to get everyone buttoned-up for overwintering.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:
> 
> 2.	Reversal of the broodnest several times early in the season is imperative to mitigate reproductive swarming.


Rather than trying to explain this myself, I will quote George directly:

_Since creation, the rule of "food over brood" simply means that genetically bees like to move UP as they eat the honey stored above them and when they run out of space ABOVE for the queen to lay eggs, they swarm, even though the lower frames may be empty. Hence, the beekeeper REVERSES the two brood chambers so that the bottom chamber which is almost empty of brood is now the top chamber and the queen can just go right up and lay eggs.

It is Nature's Way or Bee Behavior that bees like to move UPWARDS, and more or less have to be FORCED DOWNWARDS. Hence, when the space in the upper frames is filled up with brood or honey, even though there is plenty of empty space in lower frames, the bees and particularly the queen resist moving their brood rearing to the lower frames. Hence, the worker bees either stop the queen from egg laying, or even prepare to swarm. Therefore, it becomes the BEEKEEPER'S task to reposition the frames so that there is always empty laying space ABOVE where the queen is laying. However, the position of the frames that contain brood is VITALLY IMPORTANT before you start Repositioning those frames._

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/2001_Jan_-_Special_Paper_for_Tennessee_Beekeepers.html

While it is my opinion that one could argue as to whether early-season brood nest reversals are a prudent management practice or not, I think we might all agree that backfilling of the broodnest with nectar prior to what Mr. Walt Wright coined the ‘Reproductive Cut-Off’ is at least one of the main contributing factors to a colony executing swarm preps.

As a practical matter, George mentioned he might reverse the broodnest up to five times in the months of February, March and April (in Central Maryland) to prevent broodnest backfilling.

The rationale for George to reverse the broodnest had the express purpose of forestalling reproductive swarming which had the effect of maximizing the colony size and thus maximizing the colony’s nectar-gathering capability.

While I will save a discussion about reproductive swarming in a TF context for a follow-up post, it seems plain that while reproductive swarming in general has many tangible and intrinsic benefits, it also seeks to minimize surplus honey production- which was primarily why George was seeking to mitigate it.


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## Litsinger

So today I was reading the September _'BeeLines'_ publication (the official periodical of the Kentucky State Beekeeper's Association) when I read an innocuous headline of _'Queen bee researchers to hear from doctoral student Jody Gerdts'_. Reading on, I found out that Ms. Gerdts was speaking yesterday (9.8) at a meeting of the Kentucky Queen Bee Breeders Association (https://kybees.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Sept-19-BeeLines.pdf).

What caught my eye however was a short snippet which said, _"Updates on *Kentucky feral stock* and Purdue queen lines will also be discussed."_

I immediately reached out to Ms. Dorothey Morgan, President of the Kentucky Queen Bee Breeders Association (http://kyqueenbreeders.com/) who responded promptly saying,

_"Nothing has been published [regarding the feral project] yet. We are working with Western Ohio, Ohio Central State and PA. We are finding extreme chewing behavior in feral stock both in KY and Ohio, we are also grafting queens from KY and OH and inseminating them with opposite state's semen. You can follow us on Chasing Feral honey bees, Sustainable Genetics Technology Network and Lavender Lane Honey Bee Farm all on Facebook."_

I don't know how this ambitious project has escaped my notice, but it appears that they are getting some mainstream attention and developing a repeatable track-record for success.

I am really excited to see this effort develop further, right here in my neck of the woods.


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## GregB

Thanks, Russ.
Just another evidence - those who looking for a resistant stock, there are clearly many options.


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## Gray Goose

Hi Russ,
Thanks for the info.
Your statement:
I don't know how this ambitious project has escaped my notice, but it appears that they are getting some mainstream attention and developing a repeatable track-record for success.
I do not play in the facebook sand box so can you describe the repeatable track record.
Is the county they are pulling bees from close to you? maybe your queens are getting into the drone space, that would be exciting.
GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I do not play in the facebook sand box so can you describe the repeatable track record.
> Is the county they are pulling bees from close to you? maybe your queens are getting into the drone space, that would be exciting.
> GG


Gray Goose:

Thank you for your feedback. Good questions. I think there are three (3) posts made in the last year that give one the best sense of their progress to-date (as posted below). I am working with Ms. Morgan to schedule a member of her team to come down and evaluate our stock via their current protocols, but the first cut is to evaluate mite drops and ascertain whether greater than 50% of the drops show evidence of chewing. Her operation is approximately 250 miles East of me. I will keep you all apprised of further developments on this front.

August 8th

_This photo was taken in Southeast Indiana from the Screen of the DM3 Microscope. Photo shows three Varroa, two are chewed, one is not. Feral Honey Bees in Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio are Chewing Varroa. Beekeepers can find Varroa Chewing Behavior using a SCREEN BOTTOM BOARD AND A MICROSCOPE._

March 13th

_Over wintered Feral Colonies in Western Ohio. Varroa Mite Chewing ~50% last year. Age of colonies are 4 years old. Adapted to the local area. Gentle and productive. Ten and eight frame equipment 3 deep super configurations. Will be producing queens for Insemination and also harvesting semen from drones. Fingers crossed! Will be Collaborating with other states within the Heartland Honey Bee Breeders Cooperative HHBBC. We are still Collaborating with Purdue University plus other Universities. Within the Feral Colony Network in Western Ohio Of Over 300 Feral Colonies, our winter Loss is ~5%. We are creating other Feral Colony Swarm Trapper Networks within the Member HHBBC States_

January 2nd

_LANDSCAPES FOR SWARM TRAPS: PHOTO: Map of Ohio River and it’s Major Tributaries. Experience shows Feral Honey Bees live within 50 miles of a River, with Woodlots ages of 75 to 100 years and Excellent Natural Nutrition For Pollinators. Also no MANAGED BEES within 10 miles of the area you are locating Swarm Traps. _


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Gray Goose:
> 
> Thank you for your feedback. Good questions. I think there are three (3) posts made in the last year that give one the best sense of their progress to-date (as posted below). I am working with Ms. Morgan to schedule a member of her team to come down and evaluate our stock via their current protocols, but the first cut is to evaluate mite drops and ascertain whether greater than 50% of the drops show evidence of chewing. Her operation is approximately 250 miles East of me. I will keep you all apprised of further developments on this front.
> 
> August 8th
> 
> _This photo was taken in Southeast Indiana from the Screen of the DM3 Microscope. Photo shows three Varroa, two are chewed, one is not. Feral Honey Bees in Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio are Chewing Varroa. Beekeepers can find Varroa Chewing Behavior using a SCREEN BOTTOM BOARD AND A MICROSCOPE._
> 
> March 13th
> 
> _Over wintered Feral Colonies in Western Ohio. Varroa Mite Chewing ~50% last year. Age of colonies are 4 years old. Adapted to the local area. Gentle and productive. Ten and eight frame equipment 3 deep super configurations. Will be producing queens for Insemination and also harvesting semen from drones. Fingers crossed! Will be Collaborating with other states within the Heartland Honey Bee Breeders Cooperative HHBBC. We are still Collaborating with Purdue University plus other Universities. Within the Feral Colony Network in Western Ohio Of Over 300 Feral Colonies, our winter Loss is ~5%. We are creating other Feral Colony Swarm Trapper Networks within the Member HHBBC States_
> 
> January 2nd
> 
> _LANDSCAPES FOR SWARM TRAPS: PHOTO: Map of Ohio River and it’s Major Tributaries. Experience shows Feral Honey Bees live within 50 miles of a River, with Woodlots ages of 75 to 100 years and Excellent Natural Nutrition For Pollinators. Also no MANAGED BEES within 10 miles of the area you are locating Swarm Traps. _
> 
> View attachment 51231
> View attachment 51233
> View attachment 51235
> View attachment 51237
> View attachment 51239


that blue area in the pic is a nice size area. As the bees develop I would think it expands. they die out the chewing ones move in. turf expands. Thnks
GG


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> ... I will save a discussion about reproductive swarming in a TF context for a follow-up post...


I thought I would take a swing at this topic- knowing I might strike out. So feel welcome to offer your critiques- you won’t hurt my feelings.

At a very practical level, I recognize that my limited experience at swarm mitigation has not been very effective. Of the two overwintered colonies I had from last year, one swarmed despite my late attempt at ‘Checkerboarding’ and the other was not strong enough coming out of winter to pose a serious swarm threat.

That said, why might someone not want their colony to cast an early-season reproductive swarm? I can think of three reasons:

1. Maximizing Honey Production- As previously mentioned, this was the prime motivation for why Mr. Imirie would both re-queen every year and undertake an ambitious effort of reversing brood boxes.

2.	Preservation of Genetics- Once the resident queen ‘flies the coop’, the mother colony is lead (and ultimately staffed) by a new genetic profile which may or may not exhibit all the desirable traits of the previous occupants.

3.	Queenlessness- In the unfortunate event that the new resident queen fails to make it back from her nuptial flight(s) or is insufficiently mated, the colony is often left without the internal resources to restore a queenright condition and is thus doomed without beekeeper intervention.

From my humble point of view, these are all perfectly good reasons to put in the necessary management effort to circumvent swarming. So why would anyone seek to encourage (or at least not unduly stifle) reproductive swarming? I can also think of three reasons, of which the latter two may only apply in certain TF management regimes:

1.	Colony Increase- By either catching swarms or utilizing any number of methods of artificial swarming, one can pursue appreciable gains in their total number of colonies.

2. Drone Saturation- By allowing swarms to return to unmanaged environments in the flight-path of one’s apiary, one can theoretically build a genetic buffer around their apiary that provides some inertia against the influence of transient genetic profiles entering the airspace.

3.	Varroa Management- The brood break afforded a colony following the issuance of a reproductive swarm allows the colony to ‘reset’ their varroa footprint- at least as it relates to the broodnest. Dr. Thomas Seeley has noted in his research that swarming is a very important element to the ongoing success of the unmanaged colonies in the Arnot Forest. In the following video he gives a brief introduction to this concept:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgdKrQ16rX8

So is there a ‘right’ answer regarding swarming in a TF context? 

Based on what I have read and studied this far, I think that long-term success without treatment for varroa is much more complicated than simply whether one allows their colonies to swarm or not- and certainly depends upon the locale, the overall surrounding genetic profile and the specific internal mitigation strategies being employed by each individual colony- it might even differ in both mechanics and relative efficacy within the same colony year-over-year.

So I am still wrestling with this concept. I have the ‘luxury’ of keeping bees as a hobby, so I may try both methods in the same yard to see what develops. It might look something like this:

Hive A (Swarm Mitigated)- Manage hive(s) in generous volumes with more than adequate stores over winter. Early in the season (Maybe 1st week of February for me)- execute ‘Checkerboarding’ in the remaining stores and move the brood nest down to the bottom of the stack (if necessary) to give them more empty overhead comb than they can backfill before ‘Reproductive Cutoff’ and thus forestall reproductive swarming.

Hive B (Swarm Encouraged)- Manage hive(s) in adequate volumes to aim for them to be fairly light on stores coming out of winter. Take no action to reverse boxes nor perforate the remaining overhead stores, thus allowing them to have an easy lift at backfilling the nest and issuing a swarm.

Ultimately, the main difficulty I see in this type of experiment is attempting to set a ‘control’ regarding relative varroa load in the comparison hives prior to conducting such an experiment. A late winter evaluation of cluster size and mite drop might be the most rational proxy for a citizen science experiment such as this.


----------



## gww

I do not know how these managements fit your pigeon holes as posted. Here goes anyway.
1. The guy I got my bees from runs two deep going into winter. The very first warm day Feb/March He takes all extra space away (usually one deep) and crowds the bees. Best I can tell this accomplishes two things. One, the crowded bees build up better and two if not gotten to in a timely fashion would start swarm prep. I believe he liked the swarm cells for expansion rather then making queens but would have high density bees as a start of getting ready for the flow. I am not sure but think he might have tried for both lots of times. Some times I think he threw some saved pollen in to help.

Me on the other hand, have did all kinds of maneuvers to slow my bees down. My first move is that I always have too much space on my hives and try to also keep the brood nest open and sometimes rotate in a way that some brood even gets pulled out. I try and not have the hives as heavy as I can get them in fall so that they come through to spring with no room. I don't want them to starve but try and slow the bee keeping down so that if we have a warm early spring that lets the bees take advantage of the early tree nectar that my hives don't swarm before it is getting to 70 degrees pretty regular. First year the hives had lots of sugar water and little comb and it was swarm city before it was warm enough to even inspect. 

The other guys gets much more honey per hive then I do. I got the only bees I ever bought from an april hive that was in swarm mode from him.

He has kept bees for twenty years. He does not treat but does have some hives die every so often. He uses foundation. The only time I ever take a box off is in oct. I put empty boxes on as soon as they get close to getting the one under it filled with comb even if they are not drawing wax. 

His goal is lots of bees early and my goal is to slow things down till it is nice enough to be a fair weather bee keeper.

I do what I do for me and not for the bees. The bees seem to play along knock on wood till they don't. I am a little worried of the hives getting too big of a mite load due to long term with out swarm/split of some kind providing a brood break and believe I will know more next spring as that will be the third winter for some that have not been split. I may have had a few superceedures this year though.

I do not know if it is mites and slow build up or bee keeper management and slow build up that reduces my honey take. It is just what I do.

As far as how to help the genetics of a population. We are both managing different and not treating and so it could be luck of the area. I couldn't tell you which management would be best for genetic make up but can say if the make up is good then it might not matter which management. Of course all my bees could die this year and it was a fluke it has been so good for the last four summers.

I do not know how the other guy has done over the past twenty years. The last two or three he is getting by but now only has three hives and I think they all lived two years in a row and gave good honey. 400lbs the year before last and 160 lbs this year. The average for missouri is 50 lbs. He lives 1.3 miles away from me as the crow flies.
Cheers
gww


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## AR1

...3. Varroa Management- The brood break afforded a colony following the issuance of a reproductive swarm allows the colony to ‘reset’ their varroa footprint- at least as it relates to the broodnest. Dr. Thomas Seeley has noted in his research that swarming is a very important element to the ongoing success of the unmanaged colonies in the Arnot Forest. In the following video he gives a brief introduction to this concept:...

I started the year with no bees (last year was sad) and received a swarm in late May. They built up and I split them into 5 colonies in July. 4 are appearing to do well with good queens, one is in the process of making a new queen right now, with 4 queen cells capped.

Of note, no signs of Varroa. I have alcohol washed twice and not one mite. I have used a magnifying glass on the crap on the bottom board and not found one mite. Splitting/swarming works to control Varroa. Not much honey though.

Plan for next year is to do a big splitting of all surviving colonies during the Spring and then again in July if they are doing well.


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## gww

ar1
Seems late for a queen now. Not much time to make winter bees. You got to do what you got to do though. I would like to hear how that one goes. I also made one queen in july (which I thought was kinda late) but I sold the mother queen and some bees. You are aggressive. I hope it goes really good for you.
Cheers
gww


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> .... Splitting/swarming works to control Varroa. Not much honey though.....


UNLESS you use some of the splits as resource hives for the other splits and run them as resource hives/honey hives groups.

You end up with 1)weak splits being robbed of the bees and 2)strong splits being propped for the production.
In the end even the weak splits are strong enough for the self-sufficiency.
And you have additional queens/units.

The 50/50 splits are the most useless utilization of resources and time.

This is how I prefer the splits to the swarms - you can play the game on your own terms.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I do not know how these managements fit your pigeon holes as posted. Here goes anyway.


GREAT response, GWW. Thank you for taking the time to type all that out.

I've read your post carefully three times now, and I think you make a lot of very salient points. And if I might summarize them a bit:

1. Ultimately we manage our bees the way we want to, trying to find the way that best fits our goals and our objectives.

2. The local genetic profile has HUGE implications upon our ability to keep bees successfully in a TF context- regardless of our management approach.

3. Our management MIGHT be able to confer some advantage (or disadvantage) to a colony's internal management efforts.

Thank you again for the excellent and detailed reply. I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Plan for next year is to do a big splitting of all surviving colonies during the Spring and then again in July if they are doing well.


AR1:

Thank you for the update. It sounds like you have done very well in growing your apiary.

I do hope you will continue to update us on your progress- is your plan to continue aggressively splitting your survivor stock or will you at some point aim for building some colony mass for surplus honey storage?

Keep up the good work!

Russ


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I thought I would take a swing at this topic- ..........
> 
> Ultimately, the main difficulty I see in this type of experiment is attempting to set a ‘control’ regarding relative varroa load in the comparison hives prior to conducting such an experiment. A late winter evaluation of cluster size and mite drop might be the most rational proxy for a citizen science experiment such as this.


Need to think about this one...
When have time.


As for me, I envision going forward as a regular splitting operation (early - for swarm control and expansion; late - for mite control, quality queen raising, and expansion).

Mind you, I would never split 50/50, for example.
The splits should be asymmetric (and similar to the natural swarms in that - the swarming never results in 50/50 division of the resources - the splitting should resemble the swarming in resource distribution - the natural way and pretty normal to bees).

In addition, ad-hoc shook swarms are a good tool to resolve immediate issues (and pretty darn good imitation of the natural swarms in the end).
I have done it twice this season and happy with the results so far.

In combination with some preferred stock for pest resistance and local adaptations - I see this general (and actually old school) approach as working for everyone, everywhere.
In the end, it is just a regular programming - planned distribution of the risk and loss replacement based upon natural bee behaviors.


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## gww

Russ


> 2. The local genetic profile has HUGE implications upon our ability to keep bees successfully in a TF context- regardless of our management approach.


I only have the experience that I have. I have nothing to compare it to. I have only a few times ever seen some one else's hives except for you tube. My experience makes my mind question all the others experiences of dead bees in one year that others report. My belief in people, counters my mind on this and I do believe those other people and know that some of those people are around me and have lost all their hives.

I don't know if my hives look good when I look inside them? I can sometimes see differences in individual hives under my care but am not always sure of the cause.

I think your number 2 marked statement is my meaning as well as the other condensations of my post also reflect my thoughts. Being totally honest, I would have to say I really don't know much and am trying to learn and at least doing a little observation and coming up with what I come up with till I learn more.

Take every thing I say as from an knowledge infant and with a grain of salt. Don't get me wrong, it is my best at this time that I have to offer.

I do believe that people go to the effort to keep bees for a purpose of their own and work towards that purpose rather then work for the bees. 

Reading others experimentation and trying stuff your self to compare the results is the only way I know to go about bee keeping. That is what I think I am doing. 

I do really like you giving your over view of the things you read. It takes the question away of what you understood and gives avenue for clarification or discussion and is a great way to communicate in my mind.

Thanks
gww


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## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Need to think about this one...
> When have time.
> 
> 
> As for me, I envision going forward as a regular splitting operation (early - for swarm control and expansion; late - for mite control, quality queen raising, and expansion).
> 
> Mind you, I would never split 50/50, for example.
> The splits should be asymmetric (and similar to the natural swarms in that - the swarming never results in 50/50 division of the resources - the splitting should resemble the swarming in resource distribution - the natural way and pretty normal to bees).
> 
> In addition, ad-hoc shook swarms are a good tool to resolve immediate issues (and pretty darn good imitation of the natural swarms in the end).
> I have done it twice this season and happy with the results so far.
> 
> In combination with some preferred stock for pest resistance and local adaptations - I see this general (and actually old school) approach as working for everyone, everywhere.
> In the end, it is just a regular programming - planned distribution of the risk and loss replacement based upon natural bee behaviors.


So Big Question here "What is the Control" As the queen can have 12-20 baby daddy's and the mother can as well, it is unlikely even in Sibbling Queens to have "sameness" unless you Inseminate from same line drones, which would result in a poorly mated queen. Realize there are likely several paternal lines for each hive, and the control is out the window. That is why these study's that start with 100 packages......are not all that repeatable.
GG


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> So Big Question here "What is the Control" As the queen can have 12-20 baby daddy's and the mother can as well, it is unlikely even in Sibbling Queens to have "sameness" unless you Inseminate from same line drones, which would result in a poorly mated queen. Realize there are likely several paternal lines for each hive, and the control is out the window. That is why these study's that start with 100 packages......are not all that repeatable.
> GG


Does not matter to me, GG.
I play the dice game.
Somehow it works.

Overall, the more we look at it, the more we understand how little we understand.
With that, why bother?

Lots of smart people say lots of smart words and yet they don't know much.

Let it all work out mostly on its own.
You propagate them and it works.
Good stock (when proven) does help to move along.

Interestingly, by now most people around me would have lost their bees without treating them (if they started at the same time I did).
Pretty darn sure I will still have enough of my bees the next spring.
But they will be rushing to buy more Southern, commercial packages again. 
Some people never learn, I guess.


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## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Does not matter to me, GG.
> I play the dice game.
> Somehow it works.
> 
> Overall, the more we look at it, the more we understand how little we understand.
> With that, why bother?
> 
> Lots of smart people say lots of smart words and yet they don't know much.
> 
> Let it all work out mostly on its own.
> You propagate them and it works.
> Good stock (when proven) does help to move along.
> 
> Interestingly, by now most people around me would have lost their bees without treating them (if they started at the same time I did).
> Pretty darn sure I will still have enough of my bees the next spring.
> But they will be rushing to buy more Southern, commercial packages again.
> Some people never learn, I guess.


Greg, Repeat ability is a frontier I fear I cannot Scale. In any given year, I do not necessary know which way the virgin fly's and to What DCA she ends up in. Even if I had great results one year, "What if " the the primary drone area is logged, burns, has several dead outs due to severe winter, the Keeper moves , etc. So one needs to follow some "Basic principles" Grow Queens during the best times, use good stock , try to add drones, etc. But end of the day each of the eggs from the mother breeder Queen can be 1 of 12 or so paternal lines. Each drone can only breed one time, how many of which source and the weather is different day to day. I open Mate, so I may be out on a limb, But My opinion is I cannot ever get 2 queens to be exactually the same . Now If I did 50 from the same mother queen then yes several could be the same line, only if they fly the same path for mating and pick up the same ratio of drones from the same lines would it even be close. mathematically it is virtually impossible to open mate 2 identical queens. So a control and a test group would all essentially be different individuals. So one would need to state " setting the paternal linage of the Queen aside, O and setting aside the Drones she mated with" , Assuming the queens are the same we did such and such test. So how often do we read or hear, "if the hive has problems replace the queen" So in my mind I cannot see how these study's hold water. Until you can clone the queen and clone the drones and artificially mate them you have not a comparative test group. And As I do not wish to clone or artificially inseminate Bees, I am to remain a Skeptic of every study where the claim is to have a "control group" As the hive reflects the Queen and each one is unique, Its somewhat in the weeds at that point. So I may have to agree with you "some will some won't so what next" Split from the survivors, and spend time in areas that I can effect and that will matter.


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Greg, ...... Split from the survivors, and spend time in areas that I can effect and that will matter.


For the most of us - this is how things are.
Not much else you can do.

Well, sharing/purchasing/importing promising stock into your location is one good thing to do.
IF I did not bring in four (4) feral queens as quickly as I just could into my program - unsure where I would have been now - probably still chasing the swarms and trying to establish.
So, in the absence of proven local stock, the necessity of importing and urgent propagating some outsider stock - priority #1.

This season I feel less vulnerable. 
Lackluster swarm catch this year is not really a big deal for me thanks to sufficient overwintered resources.

I think the TF members here should consider starting some material exchange of worthy quality.
For sure, I have to thank one of the TF members on this forum for my bees.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I only have the experience that I have. I have nothing to compare it to.
> ...
> Being totally honest, I would have to say I really don't know much and am trying to learn and at least doing a little observation and coming up with what I come up with till I learn more.
> ...
> Reading others experimentation and trying stuff your self to compare the results is the only way I know to go about bee keeping. That is what I think I am doing.


Great points, GWW. I think most of us can completely relate to your sentiments, and I think being able to share these experiences and communicate with others who are working toward the same overarching goal is important. I am grateful for this forum (and by extension those who contribute) in that regard.

Also, I would not sell yourself too short- while you might be the fortunate beneficiary of an excellent local genetic profile, you are also making good on it. If nothing else, your management approach in my mind serves as a reasonable starting point for folks in your region who wish to embark on an experiment in TF beekeeping.

Thank you again for all your helpful contributions. I've learned a lot from you.

Have a great weekend.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> So Big Question here "What is the Control" ...Realize there are likely several paternal lines for each hive, and the control is out the window.





Gray Goose said:


> So one needs to follow some "Basic principles" Grow Queens during the best times, use good stock, try to add drones, etc. ...
> spend time in areas that I can effect and that will matter.


Gray Goose:

Thank you for your astute replies- you are of course right, and as I thought through the implications of open polyandrous mating it became plain to me that even if you could define and establish parity in external outcomes (i.e. winter cluster size and relative mite load), it says little to nothing about the internal mechanics of what produced a given outcome. What is the famous statistical axiom, _correlation is not causation_? 

So I'm back to the drawing board. I'll start with the most basic principal- keep a few colonies alive this winter .

Thanks again for your input- I really appreciate it.

Have a great weekend.

Russ


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I think the TF members here should consider starting some material exchange of worthy quality.


Makes good sense to me, GregV. Maybe even looking into the 48 hour queen cells like MSL has advocated for?

It seems most of what I have read has suggested a 10 hour transport time as a reasonable upper limit.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ....... I'll start with the most basic principal- keep a few colonies alive this winter . Russ


I'd give it one more winter to my best TF stock (will make it three winters straight) and then..... 
Maybe we should indeed start talking material exchange with the interested folks involved.

Added: 
I know all my bees have mites; 
incidentally, while pulling some honey off the best resource hive this season I found a young bee with a mite on it - just like that, by an accident;
I also found a couple of DWV bees in my second best resource hive;
the Zombee hive probably has tons of mites - there were few DWV bees in it as early as June; but only 2-3 cases that I found up to now, not tens and tens;
ok, the Zombees are walking dead anyway - I already written them off (a nice surprise is always a welcome);

so we'll see - if going by the "T" theory - most all of my bees will just crash and burn soon here (unless urgently and immediatelly treated);
okay, letting them "crash and burn".


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## AR1

gww said:


> ar1
> Seems late for a queen now. Not much time to make winter bees. You got to do what you got to do though. I would like to hear how that one goes. I also made one queen in july (which I thought was kinda late) but I sold the mother queen and some bees. You are aggressive. I hope it goes really good for you.
> Cheers
> gww


It is late, but still lots of drones in the surrounding hives so they have some chance. If they requeen I'll feed the heck out of them. If not, they will get combined.


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## AR1

Litsinger said:


> AR1:
> 
> Thank you for the update. It sounds like you have done very well in growing your apiary.
> 
> I do hope you will continue to update us on your progress- is your plan to continue aggressively splitting your survivor stock or will you at some point aim for building some colony mass for surplus honey storage?
> 
> Keep up the good work!
> 
> Russ


Next year will be mostly splitting. If that looks successful I will probably isolate a hive or two and try to get honey off them and skip the July split for those hives. So far these are not survivors and as far as I know nothing special as mite fighters. Just a random swarm that probably came from my neighbor's hive. 

Although I did enjoy watching them chase, bite and ball the hive beetles. I even saw one grab a beetle and fly away with it.


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> It is late, but still lots of drones in the surrounding hives so they have some chance. If they requeen I'll feed the heck out of them. If not, they will get combined.


Drones are still a plenty.
Me too - trying to mate an accidental late queen.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Although I did enjoy watching them chase, bite and ball the hive beetles. I even saw one grab a beetle and fly away with it.


AR1:

It sounds like you have a good game plan in mind- hopefully a few of your new colonies will show some resistance.

I also enjoy watching them forcibly evicting SHBs, and it gives me sick satisfaction to hear them go 'crunch' underneath my hive tool...


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## Litsinger

Last year, I noticed that it was a full 45+ days after I saw the first evidence of goldenrod bloom (August 4th) until I saw bees working it on my place (September 16th).

So this year I decided to take a closer look at what varieties of goldenrod bloom here locally, and what the bees will work.

Using this excellent Field Museum guide (https://fieldguides.fieldmuseum.org/guides/guide/389), I discovered that we have at least six (6) goldenrod varieties which are common around here:

Early Goldenrod
Canada Goldenrod
Riddell's Goldenrod
Common Grass-Leaved Goldenrod
Stiff Goldenrod
Late Goldenrod

As for this year, I observed the first goldenrod blooming on July 28th and did not see any bees working it until September 8th (Stiff Goldenrod).

We now have a decent goldenrod flow going, and they are now working the Late Goldenrod heavily.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ...
> 
> Using this excellent Field Museum guide (https://fieldguides.fieldmuseum.org/guides/guide/389), I discovered that we have at least six (6) goldenrod varieties which are common around here:


Thanks for sharing!
I was looking for a good photo identification guide.
Indeed, Stiff Goldenrod is the one variety bees are working the hardest.
I need to harvest the seeds and spread the Stiff Goldenrod around more.
The other varieties I have not seen the bees working, even though there are lots of them all over here.


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## AR1

GregV said:


> Drones are still a plenty.
> Me too - trying to mate an accidental late queen.


Dane County is about 90 miles due north of me, so the growing season ends about 2 weeks earlier. They have to mature, fly, mate and start brood. We shall see, just hoping for a late first frost but not expecting it this year.


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## gww

ar1
I have no experience but have read that you need around three good brood cycles after the queen having been mated to get a good winter cluster. It just does not seem like there is time between now and frost for a queen that is not hatched yet. That is one reason I would be interested in how your hive looks next spring and if it makes it. I don't say it won't do well, just that it may be a good single experiment that the results of, would be interesting to know for my own management future. You are in a round about way, a slightly cooler neighbor of mine.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Thanks for sharing!
> I was looking for a good photo identification guide.


Glad to share, GregV. I am pleased to hear that it is helpful.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:
> 
> 3.	One should super their colonies early in the season, all at once.


Mr. Imirie begins his appeal with variations on this theme:

_"Maybe you are content with a colony production of only 40-50 pounds of honey made in April and May; but … my 10 year average yield got to be 132 pounds honey /colony in Maryland which has an average yield of only 29 pounds/colony."_

Knowing that most of us are interested in more surplus honey, he now begins to tell us how we too can have more surplus production (modifying the dates accordingly based on locale):

_"Put on your first super on April 1st, with NO queen excluder under it, and 14 days later, April 15th, make sure the queen is NOT in that first super, put a Queen Excluder under it, and add FOUR more supers of frames of DRAWN COMB on top of that first super ALL AT ONCE! Now your bees are ready to make you 3-4 full supers of capped honey for you to extract on July 4th."_

How does this work, you ask?

_"In Central Maryland (Baltimore-Washington, DC area), dandelions appear in late March or early April and this "sets the stage" for the up-coming nectar crop of black locust, tulip poplar, and of course, myriads of "wildflowers". Unfortunately, in comparison to other states, this April, May, and maybe early June is OUR ONLY SURPLUS HONEY CROP. 

THIS FACT is why you need 5 supers when you only get 2-3 full supers of honey! Without STORAGE SPACE for that THIN, WATERY nectar while the bees are trying very hard to EVAPORATE all that nectar water and ripen it into honey, they will SWARM due to LACK of space to store that nectar!

Use DRAWN COMB and not foundation and have spare supplies ready to use if needed. WHAT happens when a STEADY nectar flow begins, which is normally black locust about April 15th to May 1st in Montgomery County? Almost over-night, the worker bees "shift gears" and change their program from swarming to nectar collecting. Now the foraging bees are finding nectar, bringing it home to the colony, and the nurse bees receive it, begin the ripening process of converting nectar into honey, storing it in cells, and capping that cell when the ripening process is complete. All honeybee minds are now on honey, and swarming is almost forgotten, PROVIDED THAT YOU HAVE PROVIDED ENOUGH SUPER SPACE IN ADVANCE to store all than thin nectar which is about 80% water until the bees get time to evaporate the water percentage down to about 16% now known as HONEY.

Basically, 25 pounds of nectar makes only about 6 pounds of honey, and that ripening process may take only a few days, but if the humidity is high (always high in our area), ripening might take 10-20 days. in each of my apiaries, I have always had a SCALE hive that can be weighed EVERY night to see how much weight increase there is for each day. On a good nectar flow, a strong colony can bring in 25 pounds of nectar in ONE day or 50 pounds in 2 days.

Ten 6 5/8" medium frames will be totally filled to hold that much nectar; and after ripening yield only about 12 pounds of honey and that process might take several days."_

So George concludes by saying,

_"Hence, don't be CHEAP, buy 5 medium supers, frames, and foundation for every colony!"_

While obviously there are quite a few vagaries and local accommodations to be made, and this advice maybe doesn't take the SHB pressures of today fully into account, it is interesting to me how the flow dynamics he describes could certainly be said of Western Kentucky (give a week or so) and it is reminiscent of Mr. Walt Wright's advice to, _"...super optimistically"_.


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## AR1

gww said:


> ar1
> I have no experience but have read that you need around three good brood cycles after the queen having been mated to get a good winter cluster. It just does not seem like there is time between now and frost for a queen that is not hatched yet. That is one reason I would be interested in how your hive looks next spring and if it makes it. I don't say it won't do well, just that it may be a good single experiment that the results of, would be interesting to know for my own management future. You are in a round about way, a slightly cooler neighbor of mine.
> Cheers
> gww


Slightly cooler here. We hit -20F a few times last winter and January had many days below zero to -10F. May get a frost or two in September but not always. GregV's Dane County Wi is distinctly colder even though only 90 miles farther North.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:
> 
> 4.	Related to (1 - 3)- Early supplemental feeding of 1:1 sugar water and pollen substitute is helpful to have the necessary forager strength to take fullest advantage of the Spring flow.


While one might certainly argue the merits of supplemental feeding as a routine matter of course, it is hard to find fault in Mr. Imirie's logic at least as regards maximizing honey production from an available early spring flow. In short, George's rationale for early feeding (and brood nest reversals as previously outlined) is to maximize the forager population coincident with nectar availability- recognizing that foragers today are eggs laid approximately 40 days ago. As George relates:

_"A foraging age bee is a bee older than 19 days old! The gestation period of a worker bee is 21 days, and it spends the first 18 days of its life doing hive duties, mainly being a nurse bee of the brood larvae; and does not go out foraging for nectar or pollen until it is 19 days old. 21 days gestation period plus 19 days of hive duty equal FORTY DAYS between the time its egg was laid and foraging. Therefore, if you want a foraging age bee ready for foraging at the start of a major nectar flow on April 15th, the queen had to lay "it's" egg 40 days prior to April 15th, meaning before MARCH 6th! March 6th! March 6th!

That FORTY DAYS is as important as your social security number if you are to be a good beekeeper! Hence, if a major nectar flow from black locust, tulip poplar, or blackberry starts on May 1st, the worker bee egg that is going to make a forager age bee by May 1st has to be laid before MARCH 21st, which is 40 days before May 1st."_


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## gww

russ
Things might be handled different when you have lots of drawn comb that was protected over winter and able to be put on the hive first of april or before.

If you don't have the above, you might need to build lots of extra equipment.

Keep writing, I have read a bunch but like you pointing out the parts you think are being high lighted by goerge.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> russ
> Things might be handled different when you have lots of drawn comb that was protected over winter and able to be put on the hive first of april or before.
> 
> If you don't have the above, you might need to build lots of extra equipment.


GWW:

Thank you for your feedback- I concur that it would be a lot of work and a lot to manage to work towards a strategy to maximize honey production- that said, most things that are worth doing are hard work...

I appreciate you reading and providing feedback along the way.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> While one might certainly argue the merits of supplemental feeding as a routine matter of course...


From a treatment-free perspective, it seems that minimizing supplemental feeding is a prudent approach in general, and in specific to varroa population management.

In particular, the use of heavy feeding early in the season would seek to both extend and intensify the seasonal brooding dynamics. In so doing, varroa would also be afforded more opportunities to successfully reproduce which would have the affect of bending the varroa population growth curve upward earlier in the season corresponding to the early brooding.

In similar turn, feeding during a dearth might impel a colony to continue to raise significant brood when they might otherwise take a brood break and thus attenuate the varroa growth curve.

Depending upon the mode or modes of varroa mitigation being expressed in a particular colony, these extended brooding periods might represent the difference between success and failure for the colony’s internal management efforts.

So while I am not adverse to supplemental feeding as might be required, it seems pragmatic to me to allow colonies to build-up more in sync with natural availability in the area- with the understanding that this will by definition dampen the amount of surplus nectar that can be gathered early in the season.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> From a treatment-free perspective, it seems that minimizing supplemental feeding is a prudent approach in general, and in specific to varroa population management.
> .............
> So while I am not adverse to supplemental feeding as might be required, it seems pragmatic to me to allow colonies to build-up more in sync with natural availability in the area- with the understanding that this will by definition dampen the amount of surplus nectar that can be gathered early in the season.


Important consideration in the chem-free (CF) management is mid-summer splits (nucs).
In my climate, for the nucs to successfully prepare for the winter - feeding is necessary and rather a rule (not exception).

Conveniently for my setting, the late summer/early fall feeding of the under-resourced nucs is NOT really going against the natural cycle - it is actually fitting nicely into the late summer/early fall flow here. 

The actual limiting factor is the *labor availability* for the nucs to leverage the existing fall flow.

The actually un-natural part in mid-summer nuc management is their not very natural timing and starting out without a mated queen - a disadvantage when compared to the late swarms. Without artificial support the nucs will perish in high proportions (especially if the initial queen mating fails and re-queening is attempted again taking even longer time).
To compensate for the poor timing one needs to feed.

Outside of this initial artificial feeding support, they are on their own to manage the pests, decease, and the climate.
This is how my program goes.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The actually un-natural part in mid-summer nuc management is their not very natural timing and starting out without a mated queen - a disadvantage when compared to the late swarms. Without artificial support the nucs will perish in high proportions (especially if the initial queen mating fails and re-queening is attempted again taking even longer time). To compensate for the poor timing one needs to feed.


Good point, GregV. I should have clarified that my thoughts regarding supplemental feeding were in response to Mr. Imirie's recommendation to feed early and often for the expressed purpose of explosive early Spring brood-up. That said, it seems that supplemental feeding to give a colony a boost when needed is a good idea, particularly when they are working to get established (i.e. swarm, nuc, etc.).

Thanks for the commentary- good feedback.


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## Litsinger

I took a few hours yesterday to get the Langstroth colonies ready for the 48-hour mite drop count corresponding with Autumnal Equinox.

As a function of this I renewed the Freeman trays and I always find it instructive to evaluate both the quantity and contents of the material on the trays and to look up into the colony from below to see where within the stack the brood nest is located.

With but one exception, most of the colonies are still fairly high in the stack but are beginning to backfill from the top down.

When renewing the oil in the trays, I try to strain out as much of the old oil I can as I have found the fruity-smelling, pollen-laden oil is very attractive to small hive beetles and makes for a good addition to clean up hives with a bit a beetle problem.


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## Litsinger

Completed the 48 hour mite drops (approx. 52 hours) on the seven (7) Langstroth colonies as follows. These counts include devitalized mites.

Looking at the mites themselves in the oil bath I observed that some sink while some float. Has me wondering if this yields any clues?

Also, I only observed one (1) hive beetle. I have been amazed at how conspicuously absent they have been here this year.

Finally, I think I finally observed congregation in the 'vestibule' created when using slatted racks on #1910 (Photo #5). 

#1803- 14
#1804- 30 (Photo #1)
#1907- 18
#1909- 6 (Photo #4)
#1910- 10
#1911- 5 (Photo #3)
#1912- 32 (Photo #2)


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## Litsinger

In a really interesting essay entitled, "Evolution Unleashed", Dr. Kevin Laland attempts to make the case for "...extended evolutionary synthesis (EES). A central issue is whether what happens to organisms during their lifetime – their development – can play important and previously unanticipated roles in evolution. The orthodox view has been that developmental processes are largely irrelevant to evolution, but the EES views them as pivotal."

https://aeon.co/essays/science-in-flux-is-a-revolution-brewing-in-evolutionary-theory

While the entire article is well worth the read in my humble opinion, some of the more noteworthy analogies he offers are as follows:

"...but there is no getting away from the fact that the inheritance of acquired characteristics really does happen."

"Imagine a dog-walker (the genes) struggling to retain control of a brawny mastiff (human culture). The pair’s trajectory (the pathway of evolution) reflects the outcome of the struggle. Now imagine the same dog-walker struggling with multiple dogs, on leashes of varied lengths, with each dog tugging in different directions. All these tugs represent the influence of developmental factors, including epigenetics, antibodies and hormones passed on by parents, as well as the ecological legacies and culture they bequeath."

"These extra-genetic kinds of inheritance give organisms the flexibility to make rapid adjustments to environmental challenges, dragging genetic change in their wake – much like a rowdy pack of dogs."

"The way that genes are expressed to produce an organism’s phenotype – the actual characteristics it ends up with – is affected by chemicals that attach to them. Everything from diet to air pollution to parental behaviour can influence the addition or removal of these chemical marks, which switches genes on or off. Usually these so-called ‘epigenetic’ attachments are removed during the production of sperm and eggs cells, but it turns out that some escape the resetting process and are passed on to the next generation, along with the genes. This is known as ‘epigenetic inheritance’, and more and more studies are confirming that it really happens."

"If evolution is not to be explained solely in terms of changes in gene frequencies; if previously rejected mechanisms such as the inheritance of acquired characteristics turn out to be important after all; and if organisms are acknowledged to bias evolution through development, learning and other forms of plasticity – does all this mean a radically different and profoundly richer account of evolution is emerging? No one knows: but from the perspective of our adapting dog-walker, evolution is looking less like a gentle genetic stroll, and more like a frantic struggle by genes to keep up with strident developmental processes."


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:
> 
> 5.	Upper entrances are beneficial for overwintering survival due to their ability to mitigate condensation build-up.


Mr. Imirie gently alluded to his opinion that:

_“EVERY COLONY OF BEES SHOULD HAVE AN UPPER ENTRANCE IN PLACE ALL 365 DAYS OF THE YEAR!”_

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/Upper_Entrances.html
http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/1997_Oct_-_Importance_of_an_upper_entrance.html

He outlined his rationale as follows: 

_“Your major concerns are WIND and DAMPNESS. Your hives should not be subject to the prevailing northwest winds that also bring rain and snow. If they are not already shielded by some natural barrier, make a temporary artificial one with snow fence or something to break down the wind force. Surely, you have entered a long closed up house like a beach house and it felt damp, cold, and dreary; and you remedied that by throwing open the doors and windows and let it "air out". Provide the SAME THING for your bees which are cluster confined in the winter, by providing an UPPER ENTRANCE with a slot in the front edge of the inner cover. Warm air rises and the bee's breath is both warm and damp with moisture, just like yours, so an upper entrance allows hive ventilation letting this damp air escape the colony to outside; and the bees keep warm by clustering rather than having their whole hive interior warm. I do not believe in constricting the bottom board entrance with an entrance reducer or turning the bottom board over, because I think good ventilation is far more important that reducing entrance space. After all, feral bees living in a hollow tree don't change their entrance space when winter arises.”

“Winter losses are primarily due to lack of AVAILABLE food, disease, mites (particularly the tracheal mite), death of an old queen, a hive weak in population going into the winter, lack of ventilation and DAMPNESS. Every colony should have an upper entrance at the inner cover level to release the damp exhaled breath of the clustered bees. Don't think of keeping warmth in a bee hive like keeping warmth in your house. Recently, we have learned that a SCREENED bottom board provides more ventilation and hence better winter protection for bees than the standard wooden bottom board.”_

Interestingly enough, he did not recommend the use of an Imirie Shim as an upper entrance:

_"The ONLY purpose for the shim is to relieve brood chamber congestion by providing ingress and egress to the SUPER AREA and the shim should only be on a colony when supers are in place! It should NOT BE USED in the BROOD AREA! It should NOT BE USED as an upper entrance in the fall or winter."_

As I studied this further, I learned that a true Imirie Shim is a standard inner cover with the interior sheathing removed and a side opening installed of approximately 5/16" high x 1-1/2" long.

While he never addresses it directly in the _‘Pink Pages’_, my assumption is that the distinction between upper entrance and Imirie Shim is both the function (i.e. winter cluster moisture dissipation versus summer super access) and the presumption that a winter entrance installed at the very top of the stack would include a piece of sheathing.


----------



## Michael Bush

>A central issue is whether what happens to organisms during their lifetime – their development – can play important and previously unanticipated roles in evolution.

That sounds very Lamarckian to me.


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## Litsinger

Michael Bush said:


> >A central issue is whether what happens to organisms during their lifetime – their development – can play important and previously unanticipated roles in evolution.
> 
> That sounds very Lamarckian to me.


Good observation, Michael. In the article the author briefly touches on this by noting:

_"This sort of behaviour is clearly manifest in scientific debates over evolution. Take the idea that new features acquired by an organism during its life can be passed on to the next generation. This hypothesis was brought to prominence in the early 1800s by the French biologist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck, who used it to explain how species evolved. However, it has long been regarded as discredited by experiment – to the point that the term ‘Lamarckian’ has a derogatory connotation in evolutionary circles, and any researchers expressing sympathy for the idea effectively brand themselves ‘eccentric’. The received wisdom is that parental experiences can’t affect the characters of their offspring."_

He then goes on to briefly explain his position by outlining:

_"Let’s return to the almond-fearing mice_ [referenced in the introductory comments of the article]. _The inheritance of an epigenetic mark transmitted in the sperm is what led the mice’s offspring to acquire an inherited fear. In 2011, another extraordinary study reported that worms responded to exposure to a nasty virus by producing virus-silencing factors – chemicals that shut down the virus – but, remarkably, subsequent generations epigenetically inherited these chemicals via regulatory molecules (known as ‘small RNAs’). There are now hundreds of such studies, many published in the most prominent and prestigious journals. Biologists dispute whether epigenetic inheritance is truly Lamarckian or only superficially resembles it, but there is no getting away from the fact that the inheritance of acquired characteristics really does happen."_


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Good observation, Michael. In the article the author briefly touches on this by noting:
> 
> _"This sort of behaviour is clearly manifest in scientific debates over evolution. Take the idea that new features acquired by an organism during its life can be passed on to the next generation. This hypothesis was brought to prominence in the early 1800s by the French biologist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck, who used it to explain how species evolved. However, it has long been regarded as discredited by experiment – to the point that the term ‘Lamarckian’ has a derogatory connotation in evolutionary circles, and any researchers expressing sympathy for the idea effectively brand themselves ‘eccentric’. The received wisdom is that parental experiences can’t affect the characters of their offspring."_
> 
> He then goes on to briefly explain his position by outlining:
> 
> _"Let’s return to the almond-fearing mice_ [referenced in the introductory comments of the article]. _The inheritance of an epigenetic mark transmitted in the sperm is what led the mice’s offspring to acquire an inherited fear. In 2011, another extraordinary study reported that worms responded to exposure to a nasty virus by producing virus-silencing factors – chemicals that shut down the virus – but, remarkably, subsequent generations epigenetically inherited these chemicals via regulatory molecules (known as ‘small RNAs’). There are now hundreds of such studies, many published in the most prominent and prestigious journals. Biologists dispute whether epigenetic inheritance is truly Lamarckian or only superficially resembles it, but there is no getting away from the fact that the inheritance of acquired characteristics really does happen."_


Looks like Martha better watch out where she does her learning at. 
GG


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## AR1

gww said:


> ar1
> Seems late for a queen now. Not much time to make winter bees. You got to do what you got to do though. I would like to hear how that one goes. I also made one queen in july (which I thought was kinda late) but I sold the mother queen and some bees. You are aggressive. I hope it goes really good for you.
> Cheers
> gww


I confirmed a queen yesterday for the hive that had queen cells on Sept. 11. A little surprised since the weather has been endless rain this last month, but she must have snuck in a flight sometime. Lots of cells with single eggs, so far no larvae or capped brood. They will just have time to do a round or two before winter. It's a 5-frame nuc completely packed with bees. I had to add frames of eggs twice to get a queen cell. I am actually afraid they may try a late swarm so am keeping a trap up.
I doubt they will have many mites with so many and long brood breaks.
Some robbing attempts and fighting after inspection. Yellow jackets trying too. The entrance is very small and narrow so I doubt they had much luck.
My dad (89 year-old farmer) tells me first frost here is normally late September, but I have seen bees still adding to honey stores in early November if it's a warmer Fall.


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## gww

ar1
Thanks for the update. Good luck.
gww


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:
> 
> 6.	Frames of drawn comb are the beekeeper’s most valuable possession.


http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/2003_May_-_The_Dos_and_Donts_of_Harvesting_Honey.html
http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/2004_Feb_-_Are_Your_Bees_Alive.html

It is hard in my mind to argue against this point unless one might contend that suitable genetics (particularly in a TF paradigm) are more important.

So why is drawn comb so valuable?

_“You will hear so many beekeepers say "to diminish swarming, give the bees MORE room", but they don't mention WHAT KIND OF ROOM or WHERE THAT ROOM IS SUPPOSED TO BE. What a bunch of poor informational baloney! First of all, queens can't lay eggs and bees cannot deposit nectar on FOUNDATION - both functions require DRAWN COMB, a beekeeper's MOST VALUABLE POSESSION.”_

Secondly, as many of us know it is relatively difficult and resource intensive to get good drawn comb prepared. As I think most of us can relate to:

_“When trying to get bees to build foundation into drawn comb, there MUST POSITIVELY be a strong nectar flow in progress, and there MUST be all 10 frames (never 9) of foundation in a super tightly packed together endbar-to-endbar with any empty space left near the side walls of the super. You can only draw ONE super of foundation at a time, NEVER 2 or 3 or 4. You install just ONE super of 10 tightly packed frames of foundation, when the 6 center frames are close to fully drawn and partially filled with nectar, move them towards the outer walls of the super and put the undrawn foundation frames in the center. When the center frames are about 60%-70% drawn and contain nectar, now is the time to add the 2nd super of 10 frames of foundation and do to this 2nd super exactly what you did with the 1st super, and the same for the 3rd or 4th super. Maybe now, you understand why I refer to frames of drawn comb as "a beekeeper's MOST VALUABLE POSSESSION", because it is an exhausting process to get properly drawn comb from foundation! So don't let the wax moths destroy it after it is extracted, by protecting it.”_

And finally, maybe more than one of us (myself included) have learned the hard way just how easy it is to have wax moths run amok though stored comb, often rendering it unfit for reuse.

_“How many dozen times have I told you that "Drawn comb is the beekeepers most valuable possession"? EVERY ONE of you has had trouble making bees drawn foundation and has made mistake after mistake trying until you finally broke down and went back to the basics that I have repeated ad nauseum. So, saying THAT and reminding you that I am correct and your lack of attention to detail has caused you to LOSE YOUR DRAWN COMB TO WAX MOTHS! It is so simple to do, so GET OFF YOUR FAT BUTT, and do it. Don't go off halfcocked again and be persuaded to get the WRONG stuff because it was cheaper, some friend said it was better, or old Joe, that mountain man who has kept bees in gums for 100 years told you that he just stores his comb out in cold shed with his moonshine whiskey and creosote fence post preservative. If you lose your comb this winter, don't look for me 'cause I'm tired of repeating instructions over and over and over again and again.”_

What Mr. Imirie is referring to are his frequent admonishments to protect your drawn comb using PDB-based moth balls.


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## JWPalmer

Bear in mind that the para-dichlorobenzene product is often refered to as moth ice crystals. I have never seen it in ball form, only the napthalene product which would be really bad for the bees. Make sure you know what you are buying!


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## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> Bear in mind that the para-dichlorobenzene product is often refered to as moth ice crystals. I have never seen it in ball form, only the napthalene product which would be really bad for the bees. Make sure you know what you are buying!


GOOD catch, JW. This was an editorial slip-up on my part, so I am grateful you caught this!

Here is George's actual recommendations for storing supers:

_"The chemical you want (NO SUBSTITUTES) is PDB which stands for para-dichloro-benzene. It is a white crystalline material that sublimes (turns from solid to gas bypassing the liquid stage) at high room temperature. It has two common uses that you see quite often: it is the better type of moth balls to keep the moths out of Grandad's bedroom winter rug and it keeps moths out of Grandmothers winter lamb wool coat while hanging in the summer hot attic. It is also used as a 99% concentrate formed brick as a deodorant in men' urinals in restrooms You can buy PDB from the bee supply houses for about $2.50/pound + shipping; or any hardware store should have it if they sell rugs or urinals, and even the Giant and Safeway grocery stores sell it. BUT READ THE FINE PRINT TO MAKE SURE THE PRODUCT IS PDB (paradichlorobenzene) AND NOT SOME PETROLEUM PRODUCT. It is much easier to use the small crystals than pieces of a big solid block, so I prefer the crystals for rugs or clothes rather than the urinal block which I have to break up with a hammer. Now there is NO TRICK to its use - just exactly follow my directions. Fit a super with frames into an upside down hive top, add a second super of frames, put 2-3 teaspoons of PDB crystals on a 8x11 piece of paper and set that paper on top of the frames of super #2, on supers 3 and 4 put another piece of paper with 2-3 teaspoons of PDB crystals on top of frames in super #4, repeat for supers 5&6. Put a Hive top or board on the topmost super and seal it on with masking tape. Now take masking tape and seal the crack all way around between supers. When the crystals of PDB turn into gas, it is HEAVIER than AIR, so it goes down towards the floor; but it performs all of this in a sealed unit with masking tape. Since wax moths are a warm weather critter, they are not active in cold weather. Hence, make this stack of sealed supers with PDB in your barn, your garden shed, your carport, your outdoor porch, or your cool basement - but the colder the better. I do this on August 15th (when I install Menthol on the bees), and I repeat it about October 1st when I put my winter Apistan strips on my bees for 8 weeks. I sometimes have to repeat it again about the time I start feeding 1:1 sugar syrup which is about February 15th. When I install supers for next years crop on April 15 of every year, I break open these sealed up supers 3-4 days in advance of 4/15 and let them air out in the sun and breezes. YOU HAVE PRESERVED YOUR PRICELESS POSSESSION, DRAWN COMB; AND YOU CAN ALMOST FORGET ALL THAT FOUNDATION TROUBLE!"_

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/2003_May_-_The_Dos_and_Donts_of_Harvesting_Honey.html


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> ... but the first cut is to evaluate mite drops and ascertain whether greater than 50% of the drops show evidence of chewing.


I've been communicating a bit with Ms. Dorothey Morgan with the Kentucky Queen Bee Breeders Association regarding mite biting evaluations. Today she sent me the actual procedure that they employ, which I confirmed is substantially similar to what Dr. Brock Harpur is using at Purdue. I thought it might be helpful to others who might be interested in evaluating mites in their colonies. She also sent me a recommendation for the microscope they are using, and I will share that in a follow-up post:

_"When using a hive with a screened bottom board.**

1. Lightly oil the board with Pam spray, now almost wipe it all off. (too much oil will cover the legs and you will not be able to see if they are chewed.

2. Mite boards are put in for 48 hours, longer if no mites are dropped.

3. Board is removed. 

4. The board can't be stacked directly on top of one another or wrapped. You can stack if a spacer is used, this will keep the mites from being damaged.

5. Mites are removed by a fine tip paint brush (NO OTHER METHOD IS ACCEPTABLE), no knife, tweezers, etc. 

6. Place mites on their back on a glass slide if using a regular scope or on a dark card stock if a digital scope.

7. Mites are viewed under the scope.

8. As they are viewed, divide then into 3 groups:

A. First group, the light colored [i.e. devitalized] mites are discarded.

B. Second group are the chewed ones. 

C. Third are the not chewed ones.

7. Chewing can be a leg, the tip of the leg, body parts. etc. any missing part is considered chewed.

7. Percentage is made between the chewed and not chewed.

8. This should be repeated in 2 to 3 weeks.

The fall is the best time, since mite loads are at their highest. This should be repeated a few times during the year.

**If the hive has a solid bottom board, you can make or purchase a board and screen from Mann Lake." _


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> She also sent me a recommendation for the microscope they are using, and I will share that in a follow-up post.


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D9FK8LW/


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## squarepeg

good job russ. some very obvious mauling going on there.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D9FK8LW/
> 
> View attachment 51573
> View attachment 51575
> View attachment 51577


Russ, 
Are these your own pictures?
Doing of your own bees?
Just making sure I see what I think I see.

PS: this is a very cool scope; affordable too, if important to have.


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> good job russ. some very obvious mauling going on there.





GregV said:


> Russ,
> Are these your own pictures?
> Doing of your own bees?
> Just making sure I see what I think I see.
> 
> PS: this is a very cool scope; affordable too, if important to have.


My apologies- these photos are from Ms. Morgan based on her evaluations of Kentucky and Ohio feral stock. I've added this scope to my Christmas wish list.

One other thing she pointed out that was counter-intuitive to me- it is better to use a dark background to view the mites on. Last winter I used a white background thinking this would provide greater contrast- so this is good to know for this winter.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> My apologies- these photos are from Ms, Morgan based on her evaluations of Kentucky and Ohio feral stock. I've added this scope to my Christmas wish list.
> 
> One other thing she pointed out that was counter-intuitive to me- it is better to use a dark background to view the mites on. Last winter I used a white background thinking this would provide greater contrast- so this is good to know for this winter.


LOL!
OK, I hope you see the same with your bees.

Well, according to some people - this is not happening and nothing but a religion dope.
Maybe you will see nothing then.
Some kind of massive Photoshop scam is going on, possibly.


PS: tempted to get the scope, but.... 
need to wrap up the financing of the $70 as if something terribly important and useful (to my wife)... 
she is still waiting when my bee sales will recoup the purchase of the portable Bosch table saw, few years passed by...
One day!


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> ...still waiting when my bee sales will recoup the purchase of the portable Bosch table saw, few years passed by...
> One day!


Oh how I understand this sentiment!

I feel so badly about the photos I decided Christmas comes early this year and I ordered the scope- it should be here next week and we'll see what develops. Stay tuned...


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Oh how I understand this sentiment!
> 
> I feel so badly about the photos I decided Christmas comes early this year and I ordered the scope- it should be here next week and we'll see what develops. Stay tuned...


ok so if I put a hard carrying case on my wish list, you can pack it up and send it around for some photo generation opportunities.:applause:


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ok so if I put a hard carrying case on my wish list, you can pack it up and send it around for some photo generation opportunities.:applause:


Gray Goose:

I think this is a great idea, and I am more than willing to share... We can start the Beesource Co-Op. That said, with what shipping costs these days, it wouldn't take too many trips to equal the cost of the microscope!


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## Litsinger

Based in part on the success of folks like Squarepeg, CLong and others I decided to experiment with adding some insulation above the inner cover this winter.

As luck would have it, a friend of mine had two 4' x 8' sheets of 1" thick Styrofoam he didn't need so I spent most of the afternoon yesterday cutting them out.

My idea as of now (and still subject to change) is to retain the existing screened inner covers I have on the Langstroth colonies, insert a piece of Correx above this and then insert the insulation board above that. For my particular covers, this equates into sheets slightly shy of 12-1/4" wide x 18-3/8" long such that they fit very snugly.

While I was at it, I went ahead and cut out sheets of insulation for the Warre boxes and the three (3) ten-frame Langstroth set-ups I have for future use.

The attached photos show the general idea: upper entrance, screened inner cover, Correx sheet and 1" foam. I am hopeful that the maintenance of the upper entrance will mitigate the potential for condensation build-up on the now more highly insulated lid.


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## gww

russ
My first year I did two inch above the inter cover. I then got lazy and just started incorporating the foam into my telescoping lids and leaving them on all the time.

It is a mixed bag cause I had to paint the foam so the sun did not disintegrate the foam and I don't paint anything. They still get beat up a bit being on the outside but seem like they are going to last a while and once there, it is one more thing I no longer have to think about doing.

Except when I put a sugar block on the hive, I do not have an upper entrance. I am not for or against them, I just do what I do.

I do like foam better then quilt boxes and have more confidence in them (feeling not science).

I did have one hive that had an inch of water on top of the plywood telescoping cover that would run off every time I inspected and the bees lived through that. So I do believe that the walls being colder then the top does help decide where the condensation in a hive will be if the top is insulated.

Good luck with the find of the insulation. That would have fit great in the "what have you scrounged today" thread.

You can give us a report come spring.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I then got lazy and just started incorporating the foam into my telescoping lids and leaving them on all the time.
> 
> It is a mixed bag cause I had to paint the foam so the sun did not disintegrate the foam and I don't paint anything. They still get beat up a bit being on the outside but seem like they are going to last a while and once there, it is one more thing I no longer have to think about doing.


GWW:

Thank you for your feedback. I really appreciate it. When you review the recent Derek Mitchell research, it seems that leaving the insulation in full time might be the best overall for the colony- though it does seem that having the screened inner covers gets the nectar in the supers capped quicker.

Just curious- why don't you put the insulation on the inside of your inner cover?


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## gww

russ


> Just curious- why don't you put the insulation on the inside of your inner cover?


I can't really say. My first year a mouse made a nest on top of one of the foams and right under the telescoping lid. I had read a couple of things that the bees might chew on the foam before using it but noticed no real problems. What ever the reason I did it, it probably made sense to me at the time. I don't have screened inter covers either. So no top entrance or screens anywhere. 

I remember some big discussions on ventilation on here and moderator Rader Sidetrack used to argue that bees could control the air movement best if they had only one hole in the hive to move the air through. I guess it made an impact on my thinking. I ran with it, my only mitigating action was to add a slatted rack on bottom to help ventilate (till I run out of them and get tired of building). It was my attempt to get as close to bee perfect as I could come up to in the beginning with my low knowledge. When it worked, I then just wanted it to be automated so it was a one time thing, ergo the insulation on top of the hive.

This was mostly my thinking on my actions as they happened and I just never changed it when my bees were not dying. I never tried anything else and so only know how this works. 

I take that back, I did try for a small amount of time with no slatted rack and with one and the bearding was affected.









I have not had issues with honey getting capped. I have had issues with brood in the supers.
Cheers
gww

Ps I also read that bees won't chew the foam if you wrap it in saran wrap. I did read that some foams may have poison in them.

PS PS I also don't buy anything and so some of my tops only have one inch. I do salvage stuff that my relatives throw away which is the only reason my hives have any insulation. I like it though.


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## gww

russ


> Just curious- why don't you put the insulation on the inside of your inner cover?


One other problem I could see with the insulation on the inside is that it could interfere with decisions like feeding sugar water if needed. My inter covers do have the hole in the center that I can set a quart jar on.

I like the ideal of only touching the insulation one time and one time only.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I like the ideal of only touching the insulation one time and one time only.


GWW:

Thank you for your feedback. I do appreciate your input. You make some good arguments against having the insulation on the inside, and I recognize from your responses that one's hive set-up and management approach might have a lot to do with the most appropriate location for the insulation. Specifically:

1. If one does not use inner covers or has inner covers with a hole in the middle for a jar feeder or bee escape, putting the insulation on the inside might require provisions to keep the bees from chewing on the insulation.

2. If one plans on removing and reinstalling the insulation annually as a part of their management, provisions to make this effort more efficient are likely in order.

3. Alternately, if one plans to leave it in place year-round, it likely makes the most sense to attempt to incorporate it above the inner or outer cover (or maybe even within) like you have done.

I realize that you've already thought through all this, but for us newbees I thought it might be helpful to regurgitate what I think you are saying in your responses.

As always, I do appreciate your input.

Russ

p.s. Are those long Langstroth hives in the last photo you posted? I may have missed it, but I don't recall you talking about those.


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## gww

russ


> p.s. Are those long Langstroth hives in the last photo you posted? I may have missed it, but I don't recall you talking about those.


When I first started, my goal was to get into bees for free. I used all the stuff I ever had that was left over from previous project or remodel jobs. Those long langs took less resources to build and I could use thick or thin lumber. In the end, the closest I came to putting bees in them was to put a little lemon grass oil in them and cross my fingers. They have turned out to be great homes for those big red wasp. They are however a godsend to have around my hives as they make great tables and I throw frames on top of them when I need to use an empty so I can feed. I use them when I am fixing wonky comb. I store supers on top of them so I don't always have to run back to the house when adding space.

Cheers
gww
Ps These are all old pictures from things I have posted on here. I took some pictures yesterday to show one of my feeding processes but my phone will no longer transfer to my computer with a usb cord. I never was good at taking many pictures but guess my new picture posting days are over untill this phone craps out and I am forced to get a different one that works.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I took some pictures yesterday to show one of my feeding processes but my phone will no longer transfer to my computer with a usb cord. I never was good at taking many pictures but guess my new picture posting days are over untill this phone craps out and I am forced to get a different one that works.


GWW:

Thank you for the reply- maybe you'll get some bees to move into those long Langs this Spring. I would be interested to hear how that works out for you, but it seems that is how Dr. Leo Sharashkin keeps his, and he is somewhat in your neck of the woods, right?

Regarding your phone- can you e-mail the pictures to yourself?


----------



## Litsinger

I finally made my way through the recently published_ ‘Virus Dynamics in Naturally Varroa Resistant Honeybee Populations’_ research prepared as a doctoral thesis by Mr. Srinivas Thaduri at the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences. It is a heavy read, and for someone like me who does not have a background in biology I am certain I am unable to fully-appreciate all of it.

As described at the outset of the paper:

_ “The aim of this thesis was to investigate the role of the viral and bacterial microbiome in the enhanced survival of the mite-resistant (MR) honeybees on Gotland, to compare the role of virus tolerance and resistance in other naturally selected mite-resistant honeybee populations, similar to the Gotland population, and to unravel individual level virus-host interactions in honeybees.”_

I didn’t know what a ‘microbiome’ was, so I had to look it up. Per Wikipedia:

Microbiota are, _"...ecological communities of commensal, symbiotic and pathogenic microorganisms found in and on all multicellular organisms studied to date from plants to animals. Microbiota includes bacteria, archaea, protists, fungi and viruses.”_

In layman’s terms, I understand this to mean that the chief aim of the study was to evaluate the bacteria and viruses inhabiting the now-famous Gotland bee population against a non-mite resistant control population to see if there were any discernible differences. 

From the report, they concluded:

_“…the results of this thesis present strong evidence that naturally adapted mite-resistant honeybees have also adapted, through a natural selection process, tolerance and resistance to virus infections at both the colony and individual level. The bacterial microbiome did not appear to play a role in the enhanced survival of Swedish mite-resistant honeybees but more studies are required to investigate potential bacteriavirus interactions on honeybee health.”_

In other words, there were no statistically-relevant differences in the microbiome of the Gotland bees versus the control and that the results suggest that increased survival is at least partially as a result of increased tolerance to the pathogenic bacteria and viruses rather than a different composition of pathogens in the Gotland population versus the control.

A few pull-quotes that I found interesting:

_“In social insects like honeybees, it is also important to distinguish between tolerance and resistance at the individual level and at the colony level. A colony containing resistant bees is likely to be resistant at the colony level. The best example is mite-resistant colonies from Gotland and Avignon, which illustrates how varroa resistance (i.e. inhibiting mite’s reproduction) at the individual level lead to the resistance at the colony level. By contrast, colonies composed of tolerant individuals [are] at least also tolerant at the colony level, but may also be resistant at the colony level.”_

_“… we found Lake Sinai virus and Apis rhabdovirus-1, including previously known honey bee viruses, in Swedish honey bees. Further molecular studies showed that Gotland MR bees have developed a colony-level resistance to these viruses, and tolerance to Deformed Wing Virus (DWV), the virus most commonly associated with mite infestation. Secondly, differences in the bacterial microbiome between MR and mite-susceptible (MS) bees were studied using the 16S rDNA, but the results indicated little differences between MR and MS bees throughout the season. Finally, individual level susceptibility of MR and MS honey bees to oral virus infection was tested for DWV virus and Acute bee paralysis virus (ABPV). The results demonstrate that DWV and ABPV infection dynamics were nearly identical in MR and MS bees, but that bees from the MR honeybee populations had significantly lower mortality rates than bees from the MS population.”_

_ “The most interesting observation in this study was a clear difference between the MR and the MS bees in the survival rates of the virus-inoculated adult bees. In both DWV and ABPV inoculated bees there was a significantly higher survival rate for MR bees than for MS bees, both at 48 hpi and 72 hpi. Despite having near identical DWV and ABPV viral levels across the infection time courses, MS adults had significantly higher mortality than MR adults. This suggests that host tolerance, instead of resistance, is an important component of the naturally adapted survival mechanisms of this population.”_

_“Gotland mite-resistant bees appear to have developed a colony-level resistance to ARV-1, LSV, SBV, and BQCV and tolerance to DWV.”_

_“A non-metric multidimensional scaling (NMDS) analysis showed no great difference in bacterial community composition between the MR and MS colonies at each sampling occasion.”_

_“Varroa infestation had a significant effect on virus susceptibility; higher colony-level varroa infestation was associated with greater susceptibility of adult bees to both DWV and ABPV infection.”_
_
“Overall, this thesis reveals that Gotland mite-resistant honeybees at the colony level have adapted virus tolerance and survive better with high levels of DWV. Further, mite-resistant honeybees at the individual level are also tolerant to orally inoculated DWV and ABPV.”_


----------



## gww

Russ
I don't have a data plan on my phone. I had to look the doctor up. He is a busy boy but doesn't feed and so I am one behind him.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Russ
> I don't have a data plan on my phone. I had to look the doctor up. He is a busy boy but doesn't feed and so I am one behind him.
> Cheers
> gww


Is your phone equipped with Wi-Fi? If so, this would be an option even if you don't have a data plan.

I only mentioned Dr. Sharashkin because on his website he has plans for how to build Long Langstroth hives that look an awful lot like the ones you built- I thought maybe you used this:

https://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/long-langstroth-plans.shtml


----------



## gww

russ
Truth be known, I got the ideal from michael bushe's web site. It mentioned about 30 frames or so. I only wanted to build medium frames and so made these medium size and around 34 frames or so. I used the free langstroth plans off of this site to come up with the inside dimensions.
I was building traps and lang hives and such till I ran out of material.

I didn't know what I was doing and had to put a rail around the top after built, to give the bees bee space on top. Pictures got the membership of this forum to suggest this. 

I was over confident and did not buy bees cause I thought I would catch some in the twelve traps I had put out. I didn't catch anything and was a year behind (not that I have any schedule or ambition). The next year I found some one local to sell me a hive and ended up catching three swarms before I received the bought hive. I combined two of the swarms cause they were small and ended up going into winter with three hives which is the picture that I posted earlier about the bearding and slatted rack.
Cheers
gww

PS As for the study in the post that I missed. I always find it interesting that the study does find a difference but never are able to attribute the difference to specific things that are happening. That is why I always sorta talk back to the guys that are smarter then me on genetics and how something is impossible and will never happen. I don't know how it is happening but there is too much info for someone to say that it does not happen and happen really fast and not over thousands of years. I do think at times that some of it can be learned as well as genetic. We have learned to wash our hands as an example and somebody learned that willow was like aspirin.


----------



## Michael Bush

>...and somebody learned that willow was like aspirin.

Actually that's backward. All people through all of time have used willow bark for pain, fever and swelling best we can tell. Felix Hoffmann at Bayer discovered that they could synthesize something similar quite easily and called it Aspirin. So somebody (Bayer) learned that Aspirin was like willow bark... or that acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) had the same basic effects as salicylic acid (the active ingredient in willow bark). Bayer liked the "in" suffix on their inventions. When Bayer figured out how to make morphine twice as effective (and addictive) they named it Heroin. Salicylates are an interesting family. Methyl salicylate is wintergreen. Magnesium salicylate is Doan’s pills. Bismuth salicylate is Pepto-bismol. Choline salicylate is the pain killer Dentogel.


----------



## gww

Michael
The guy who claimed credit, Arthur Eichengrun, for stabilizing aspirin when working for bayer ended up in a concentration camp with out any of the money.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Michael Bush

>The guy who claimed credit, Arthur Eichengrun, for stabilizing aspirin when working for bayer ended up in a concentration camp with out any of the money.

I had not heard that, but it's quite possible. Bayer was definitely in with the ruling party and would probably discredit a Jew in favor of a German...


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I always find it interesting that the study does find a difference but never are able to attribute the difference to specific things that are happening.


GWW:

Great reply- you seem to always be able to make lemonade out of lemons and I imagine that is at least part of the secret to your TF success .

I agree with you that the data seem to suggest that any sustained resistance at the colony level is very likely due to the cumulative result of several different internal (and maybe external factors - i.e. isolation) rather than just one thing.

This also reminds me to temper any expectations when one finds evidence of a particular identified resistance mechanism (i.e. mite biting) understanding that this in-and-of-itself many not necessarily portend success long-term.

Keep up the good work- I always appreciate your input.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Michael Bush said:


> Felix Hoffmann at Bayer discovered that they could synthesize something similar quite easily and called it Aspirin. So somebody (Bayer) learned that Aspirin was like willow bark... or that acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) had the same basic effects as salicylic acid (the active ingredient in willow bark).





gww said:


> The guy who claimed credit, Arthur Eichengrun, for stabilizing aspirin when working for bayer ended up in a concentration camp with out any of the money.


Gentlemen:

This is an interesting history- here is a brief biography of Arthur Eichengrun which touches on this question:

https://www.encyclopedia.com/scienc...pictures-and-press-releases/eichengrun-arthur

That said, I think GWW's point was touching on two themes (and please correct me if I have misinterpreted): 

1. The idea of whether bees can 'learn' and if they can 'learn' can they pass this knowledge on to subsequent generations?

2. Related to (1)- More generally: are relatively rapid adaptations (phenotypical and/or behavioral) possible within bees in response to changing pathogen profiles?

I have quickly learned that I do not have enough background nor aptitude to really speak with any declarative statements regarding these issues of genetics, evolution, adaptation and the like but I do find the research and discussions on these themes fascinating.


----------



## gww

Russ


> I have quickly learned that I do not have enough background nor aptitude to really speak with any declarative statements regarding these issues of genetics, evolution, adaptation and the like but I do find the research and discussions on these themes fascinating.


This is the reason I go more on feeling then knowledge. The knowledge is almost always above my head even when broken down into layman's terms.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> This is the reason I go more on feeling then knowledge. The knowledge is almost always above my head even when broken down into layman's terms.


Intuition and common sense certainly go a long way in many areas of life, and I think you have a good thing going in your bee yard.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I ordered the scope- it should be here next week and we'll see what develops. Stay tuned...


This afternoon I received the digital microscope and couldn't wait to try it out.

So I pulled the tray from #1803 and carefully collected all the mites in the tray (56) and organized them into three groups:

Floating on the oil- 32

Devitalized (also floating)- 3

Sunk in the oil- 21

I then put each of these groups under the microscope and based on observation divided them into three sub-categories- missing all or most of at least one appendage [A], no apparent damage * and inconclusive [C] (based on debris attached to the mites). I was curious to see if anything could be discerned by whether the mites were found sunk or floating.

The results were as follows:

Float- 32 total mites: 23A (72%), 7B (22%), 2C (6%)

Sink- 21 total mites: 11A (52%), 6B (29%), 4C (19%)

Subtotals: 34A (64%), 13B (25%), 6C (11%)

I plan on following-up with Ms. Morgan to get some tips on further refinement of the scope to better evaluate the mouthparts and carapace for evidence of biting.































*


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> The results were as follows:
> 
> Float- 32 total mites: 23A (72%), 7B (22%), 2C (6%)
> 
> Sink- 21 total mites: 11A (52%), 6B (29%), 4C (19%)
> 
> Subtotals: 34A (64%), 13B (25%), 6C (11%)


Looks like you have a prelim #s of ~2/3 of the mite fall-off showing damage.
Any non-bee damage possibility? 
Like ants?

If true, your bees are aware of the pest and are doing something in that department - good.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Any non-bee damage possibility?


GregV:

Thank you for the feedback. To be honest, I have never even considered looking at any of the other victim's in the oil bath.

Next time I get the scope out, I will make a point to look at a hive beetle or two and a few of the larger ants / spiders.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Thank you for the feedback. To be honest, I have never even considered looking at any of the other victim's in the oil bath.
> 
> Next time I get the scope out, I will make a point to look at a hive beetle or two and a few of the larger ants / spiders.


Yes, do consider other predators.
The spiders would not bite the limbs off - they suck the victims out (after injecting them with their "stuff").
But the ants will bite and even more so than the bees; what the ants do.
Ants scavenging the hive bottoms are to consider as a factor.
Could also be predatory beetles (also biters) and the like.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Yes, do consider other predators.
> The spiders would not bite the limbs off - they suck the victims out (after injecting them with their "stuff").
> But the ants will bite and even more so than the bees; what the ants do.
> Ants scavenging the hive bottoms are to consider as a factor.
> Could also be predatory beetles (also biters) and the like.


Thanks for clarifying, GregV. I may have totally misinterpreted your initial feedback. I was looking at it from the perspective of the bees biting these other pests, but if I understand you correctly, you're curious if the ants and beetles are also at work on the mites?


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:
> 
> 7.	Successful beekeeping requires different management than what was employed prior to the tracheal and varroa mite.


While I cannot hope to address this principle as comprehensively as Mr. Imirie did, I would offer that his thoughts on this subject might generally fall into two main subcategories:

#1- Successful beekeeping (as defined by George) would follow the first six (6) precepts previously outlined and also the timely and appropriate application of the best industry-leading pest treatment protocols. Per George:

_“WHAT ARE THE ABSOLUTE NECESSITIES TO MAKE A GOOD HONEY CROP?

1.	Healthy bees with little or no mites, Nosema free, and a YOUNG vigorous queen
2.	A surplus amount of DRAWN COMB in the supers just before the nectar flow
3.	A very large number of foraging age bees available at nectar flow time
4.	Elimination of those conditions that cause swarming”_

#2- Successful beekeeping would involve a continuous effort of self-improvement as regards education and technique. To whit:

_“2/3 of all the Maryland beekeepers of 1980 are GONE, not because of death, but because they resisted LEARNING.”

“Throw away any of those bee books that you have that were written prior to 1990, no matter how famous the author was, because you can no longer keep bees "like Daddy Kept bees", and you must use the new found management techniques that have been scientifically PROVEN during these past 18 years in order to be successful today.”

“The advent of mites in 1984 and 1987 dramatically strengthened bee RESEARCH nationwide, and today's INFORMED beekeeper who practices scientific beekeeping in addition to the ART of beekeeping is able to produce over 100 pounds of honey per colony here in Maryland; and double that in places like Florida, California, Minnesota, the Dakota's, etc.”_

Here are two (2) of George’s ‘Pink Pages’ which in my opinion give a good overview of these pillars:

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/2001_Jan_-_Special_Paper_for_Tennessee_Beekeepers.html
http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/2001_Aug_-_Beekeeper_Burnout.html


----------



## Michael Bush

>Throw away any of those bee books that you have that were written prior to 1990, no matter how famous the author was, because you can no longer keep bees "like Daddy Kept bees", and you must use the new found management techniques that have been scientifically PROVEN during these past 18 years in order to be successful today.”

Bees haven't changed... some of my bee books are 200 years old... a few, though reprints, are even older...


----------



## AR1

The title of this thread is Treatment-free Bungling. Well, learned another lesson this week. Do not feed sugar cakes this early in the Fall. I put them on and immediately the scavengers came flying. The bees started dragging sugar granules out the front door and attracted hordes of robber bees, flies and yellow jackets. I eventually got smart and blocked the front door. Then it rained and that stopped the worst of it. I have squashed a few dozen yellow jackets.

Opened up the hives today and of the original 4 pounds apiece one hive has eaten, stored or disposed of maybe 3 pounds. The other maybe two. I have 4 hives here at home and all four will be needing a lot of sugar. Very wet and cool and not much foraging going on this last whole month.


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## Litsinger

Michael Bush said:


> Bees haven't changed... some of my bee books are 200 years old... a few, though reprints, are even older...


Michael:

I sincerely appreciate your feedback. As a self-confessed bibliophile I share your love and admiration for the accumulated wisdom of our beekeeping forefathers. While George is not here to refute me, I expect his frequent reference to 'throwing away' books from before 1990 was somewhat tongue-in-cheek in his attempt to drive the point home that we should continue to learn as emerging threats and new research bring new challenges and opportunities to keeping bees successfully. I say this in part based on the fact that he often wrote with respectful veneration for Reverend Langstroth and François Huber in particular.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thanks for clarifying, GregV. I may have totally misinterpreted your initial feedback. I was looking at it from the perspective of the bees biting these other pests, but if I understand you correctly, you're curious if the ants and beetles are also at work on the mites?


Sure they will if they can get to them.
So - the fallen mites become subject to additional damage inflicted by the predators, those living on the floor and the crevices.
I even have an experimental hive with the bug-habitat built-in.
Gee, I all forgot about it - deployed into production in May.
I want to have the bees winter in it and see what happens.

My hives are full of life; even saw an pseudo-scorpion another day; tried to picture him, but he did not wait around for me.
The pseudo-scorpions too can inflict some physical damage to the mites by their pincers.
These are all potential inputs into the "damaged mite" numbers (especially, IF the hives are not routinely flooded by toxic/caustic materials killing all around).
The ankle-biter bee developers should know about these details.
Do bring this up with them - they should at least acknowledge the fact of some # skew due to the other "mite biters" (be surprising if this not considered).
I am just a couch-expert with few ideas; but they should have the formulas.


----------



## Gray Goose

Michael Bush said:


> >Throw away any of those bee books that you have that were written prior to 1990, no matter how famous the author was, because you can no longer keep bees "like Daddy Kept bees", and you must use the new found management techniques that have been scientifically PROVEN during these past 18 years in order to be successful today.”
> 
> Bees haven't changed... some of my bee books are 200 years old... a few, though reprints, are even older...


+100 Most of my "good" books are from keepers in the late 1800s and early 1900s, I only have 1 bee book post 1950. If anyone plans to "throw" their old book away, PM Me I can pay shipping to get them sent to me. I concur bees have not changed much in 100 years, understand the bees first.
GG


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> The title of this thread is Treatment-free Bungling. Well, learned another lesson this week. Do not feed sugar cakes this early in the Fall.


AR1:

I am really glad you posted this- and let me just say I made the very same mistake last year with two late season nucs I attempted (and failed spectacularly at) to make up.

So the admonition to myself in this (and numerous other failures thus far) is as Zig Ziglar famously opined, _"If you learn from defeat, you haven't really lost."_

Please always feel welcome to share what you are learning in your apiary!


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So - the fallen mites become subject to additional damage inflicted by the predators, those living on the floor and the crevices.


Great observation, GregV- and thank you for clarifying.

Your point is well-taken and I can definitely as Ms. Morgan and Dr. Harpur if they are taking account for non-bee damage in their counts.

Do post what you observe in your 'eco-floor' when you have the time.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> .....Well, learned another lesson this week. Do not feed sugar cakes this early in the Fall.


Wait until cold.
For as long as liquid feed is taken, it is less work for the bees.
It takes extra effort and time to liquefy the hard feed.
When it is cold - no choice left as the liquid is not longer usable (well, maybe directly over the cluster is still usable for longer).


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> +100 Most of my "good" books are from keepers in the late 1800s and early 1900s, I only have 1 bee book post 1950. If anyone plans to "throw" their old book away, PM Me I can pay shipping to get them sent to me. I concur bees have not changed much in 100 years, understand the bees first.
> GG


Good points, GG.

As a follow-on to my response to Michael I would only add that I think George would agree that bees have not changed much- his point is that our understanding of them has grown (largely in response to the newer threats) and it behooves us to avail ourselves of emerging science.

He particularly focuses on the role of pheromones in the hive- something we certainly know more about now than we did at the turn of the last century.

All that said, your points are well-said in my opinion and I share your sentiments about the older books- they are like fine wine.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Great observation, GregV- and thank you for clarifying.
> 
> Your point is well-taken and I can definitely as Ms. Morgan and Dr. Harpur if they are taking account for non-bee damage in their counts.
> 
> Do post what you observe in your 'eco-floor' when you have the time.


Yes; you remember exactly - that "eco-floor" talk.
I actually deployed the "eco-walls" (an attempt to both insulate and create habitat).















I have not looked inside since about June?
Long time; no clue of the happenings since then.
The "neglect-management" approach.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> +100 Most of my "good" books are from keepers in the late 1800s and early 1900s, I only have 1 bee book post 1950. If anyone plans to "throw" their old book away, PM Me I can pay shipping to get them sent to me. I concur bees have not changed much in 100 years, understand the bees first.
> GG


Interestingly, I have a comment very much related.

So I am reading my recently purchased book by T. Seeley.
This - "The Lives of Bees: The Untold Story of the Honey Bee in the Wild"

I keep documenting his flops while I do it.
There are flops.

Page 216??... (from my memory; easy to double-check; I have it marked)

He writes he realized no-one before has done a study of natural bee dwelling as applied to the hives. 
And so he goes on and becomes a pioneer in that department and feels very good about it.

I scream - what?
Without even much thinking - Vitvitski (about 150 years prior):
https://warre.biobees.com/vitvitsky.htm
There are many others if I quickly dig.
Many, many names.

Surely, here is a longer list of name:
https://warre.biobees.com/precursors.htm

Another favorite I mean to study about - Kullanda.
Of all hives, he promoted round, straw hives - hard to be more natural than that.
He actually used them himself.
https://warre.biobees.com/kullanda.htm


> Regarding the dimensions of the hive: Kullanda insisted that the hive must not be wider than 267 mm, otherwise 'swarms will leave later, and there will be less honey'. He advised using only round (cylindrical) hives, because bees winter better in them rather than in square hives.


So much for our modern writers who have not done the homework. 
I am really torn about Seeley that way (with all due respect).
Not a pioneer by any means.
But he did bring up the well forgotten subject back to life - this matters.


----------



## gww

ar1


> The title of this thread is Treatment-free Bungling. Well, learned another lesson this week. Do not feed sugar cakes this early in the Fall. I put them on and immediately the scavengers came flying. The bees started dragging sugar granules out the front door and attracted hordes of robber bees, flies and yellow jackets. I eventually got smart and blocked the front door. Then it rained and that stopped the worst of it. I have squashed a few dozen yellow jackets.
> 
> Opened up the hives today and of the original 4 pounds apiece one hive has eaten, stored or disposed of maybe 3 pounds. The other maybe two. I have 4 hives here at home and all four will be needing a lot of sugar. Very wet and cool and not much foraging going on this last whole month.


I do have a question for you? What did you put in the sugar blocks besides water and sugar?

I put had put sugar blocks on every year before now on oct first. I even put a little vinegar in some of them (not much though). The bees did carry some of the sugar out and I have posted pictures of it in years past. I have never seen interest from other bees or bugs on what was piled up in front of the hives. I also do not think they ever got rid of big amounts and am thinking they more took out the lose stuff. My blocks were big though. I never really seen bees really go to hard work on the blocks till they started raising brood in spring when they could really start going through it. I was putting 12 to 15 lbs blocks on at the beginning of oct with the knowledge that I would lose a little but confident that once done, I was good for the year. I would take the sugar blocks off around april and there was usually some left and it seemed that the bees ate the sugar block before finishing the stores that were in comb.

I wonder if you were adding some smell that created an interest from other pest and bees that were out side the hive?

Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Yes; you remember exactly - that "eco-floor" talk.


No rush, but I'd be interested to hear about what you find in that 'eco-floor'.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> But he did bring up the well forgotten subject back to life - this matters.


Good point, GregV. Sometimes it is about rediscovering things that our ancestors already knew / observed isn't it?


----------



## AR1

gww said:


> ar1
> 
> 
> I do have a question for you? What did you put in the sugar blocks besides water and sugar?
> 
> I wonder if you were adding some smell that created an interest from other pest and bees that were out side the hive?
> 
> Cheers
> gww


Sugar and a splash of vinegar. That's all.
All the bugs here this year are extra-hungry since they are not able to forage much. I put the sugar on so early because the hives are packed with bees who have nothing to do all day but eat. I can imagine them starving out before winter even starts. 

I added sugar to the other two hives today, but made sure to tighten the entrances first. It still seems to be attracting yellow jackets, within a few minutes of the sugar going on. Next time no vinegar?


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Interestingly, I have a comment very much related.
> 
> So I am reading my recently purchased book by T. Seeley.
> This - "The Lives of Bees: The Untold Story of the Honey Bee in the Wild"
> 
> I keep documenting his flops while I do it.
> There are flops.
> 
> Page 216??... (from my memory; easy to double-check; I have it marked)
> .


Page 112.



> ....I knew that beekeepers had worked for centuries to design the perfect hive, and I figured they might have looked to the natural living quarters of honey bee colonies for guidance, but evidently *they had not.* At the same time, *finding this gap in our knowledge delighted me*, for I realized then that my curiosity about the bees' natural homes had *draw me to a region of uncharted territory* in the biology of Apis millifera.










...I scream - what?...


----------



## gww

Ar1
I would maybe try no vinegar. I did have a few spoon fulls in most of mine but was scared of too much smell myself. 
I have mentioned the only experience I have so far and so can only say good luck and that I still hope to hear how it goes for you. 
Cheers
gww


----------



## JWPalmer

GregV said:


> Page 112.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 51707
> 
> ...I scream - what?...


Maybe TS is unfamiliar with the Warre` hive?


----------



## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> Maybe TS is unfamiliar with the Warre` hive?


Good observation- reminds me that there are many techniques and management approaches we can learn from and look to implement as they apply in our own situation.

Speaking of Warre, I had the opportunity to do my winter preps with the seven (7) Langstroth colonies in my yard. My experiment in nadiring was largely unfruitful.

With the exception of #1804, the remaining colonies largely ignored the empty box at the bottom of the stack. The key difference between #1804 and all the others is that I 'pyramided-down' some brood comb early in the season and this seems to have impelled them to move downward. Additionally, this is the only overwintered colony I have that did not swarm, so this might have been a factor as well. A brief summary of my findings:

#1803- Equivalent of two boxes of stores (3 boxes total). I left two empty boxes of fully-drawn comb on the bottom of the stack and removed three boxes of empty drawn comb. I was disappointed with this result as this colony had an enormous population and significantly more stores earlier in the season and seems to have kept rearing brood to no positive effect.

#1804- Equivalent of two and one-half boxes of stores (3 boxes total). I was pleased at their current population overwintering preparations and they seem to have made good strides this season in light of the tiny overwintered cluster they started as at the beginning of the season.

#1907- Equivalent of two boxes of stores (3 boxes total). I was pleased with the progress of this colony as this is a #3 secondary swarm I received from my neighbor on May 2nd and I have given them no help in terms of comb nor supplemental feed. *Edit* This colony received a box of mixed open and closed feed frames earlier in the year that I had stored from last year.

#1909- Equivalent of one and one-half boxes of stores (3 boxes total). This is a 4# swarm that was hived on May 9th. They also received no help to-date, but I have added a feeder to help augment their stores.

#1910- Equivalent of two boxes of stores (3 boxes total). I am also well-pleased with the progress of this colony as they began as a 1.5# secondary swarm hived on May 19th. They however received a full-box of drawn comb due to their small size and late emergence. *Edit* This colony also received a box of mixed open and closed feed frames earlier in the year that I had stored from last year.

#1911- Equivalent of one and one-half boxes of stores (3 boxes total). This is the office 'bee tree' colony which was brought home on May 23rd. They have received no comb nor supplemental feeding but I added a feeder to them as well to top them off. *Edit* This colony received a box of mixed open and closed feed frames earlier in the year that I had stored from last year.

#1912- Left alone. This is the second trap out (brought home August 30th) which consists of two medium boxes (positions 1 and 2) and one deep box (position 3) which was employed in the trap-out procedure and thus only has four (4) frames in an eight frame volume. The remaining space is filled with an impressive amount of comb drawn from the top of the hive-top feeder and I decided prior to bringing them home to leave this comb it well enough alone given the time of year.


----------



## GregB

JWPalmer said:


> Maybe TS is unfamiliar with the Warre` hive?


TS is supposed to be an expert in all things "natural" internationally.
Surely he is aware of the Warre-related subjects.
Maybe he was not some time ago.
But the book is applicable *now* and just came into the print recently.
So then just say so - "oops, did not know at the time; was no Google around; my bad".... 

Here is enough evidence for me (page 228 from the same book as posted on Amazon; did not look more, no need).








Discussion on the experiments described (and the conclusions) is a entire different subject.
No mood for it now.

Anyway, just an opinion of a amateur "couch-reviewer".


----------



## JWPalmer

Greg, my response was a little tongue in cheek. I did not truly doubt that he was familiar with the the Warre'. But, was suprised by the passage you quoted since that is exactly what Warre' was attempting to do.


----------



## Gray Goose

Hi Russ
about the comment "Speaking of Warre, I had the opportunity to do my winter preps with the seven (7) Langstroth colonies in my yard. My experiment in nadiring was largely unfruitful."
What was your goal and what was the fruit you expected? I nadir often and it seems to do what I need. I mostly want the pollen under the honey in the top for spring. "Supering leaves it in the bottom. did you nadir with comb or foundation or foundation-less?
GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> What was your goal and what was the fruit you expected? I nadir often and it seems to do what I need. I mostly want the pollen under the honey in the top for spring. "Supering leaves it in the bottom. did you nadir with comb or foundation or foundation-less?


GG:

Good question. My hope had been to find a surefire way to get new drawn comb built without having to resort to extensive manipulations and create a logical means of systematic comb renewal. As such, I endeavored to adapt Abby Warre's method of adding an empty box to the very bottom of the stack in hopes the colonies would draw fresh comb in there.

While I am not yet ready to declare this effort a failure, my first attempt at nadiring in this fashion resulted in a one (1) out of seven (7) success rate, with the one (1) being augmented by pyramiding-down drawn comb from the brood nest fairly early in the season.

As a trial, I may experiment with Tim Rowe's 'Rose Hive' method next year to see if any more consistent results can be obtained:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMcBiCcuC8w&list=PLhAXj-vNqBVlxEZIAjNqj2mYGgIeNEzTu


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> GG:
> 
> Good question. My hope had been to find a surefire way to get new drawn comb built without having to resort to extensive manipulations and create a logical means of systematic comb renewal. As such, I endeavored to adapt Abby Warre's method of adding an empty box to the very bottom of the stack in hopes the colonies would draw fresh comb in there.
> 
> While I am not yet ready to declare this effort a failure, my first attempt at nadiring in this fashion resulted in a one (1) out of seven (7) success rate, with the one (1) being augmented by pyramiding-down drawn comb from the brood nest fairly early in the season.
> 
> As a trial, I may experiment with Tim Rowe's 'Rose Hive' method next year to see if any more consistent results can be obtained:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMcBiCcuC8w&list=PLhAXj-vNqBVlxEZIAjNqj2mYGgIeNEzTu


ok i use Nadir different. I normally add comb and do it when I'd rather have a deeper nest and open space below. Or would rather not have empty space above. For comb drawing, I have the best luck with 1 or 2 frames, put right into the brood nest. More than that and I would fear chilling the brood.
GG


----------



## gww

russ
My guess on the comb drawing. I think this is more a time of the year type thing. If the box is put on early and if the hive needs the space because they have filled what they have, they will swarm or start to use the space. If the space is baited with a comb, they might take to it better but I understand your goal of trying to just add the space and that being it.

On some of the hives, you added some drawn comb from a dead out. Those hives probably never had the need to draw comb.

My personal opinion would be to add the space next spring as early as possible and try it again. My bees did not draw near the comb that they did most years but they also started with more comb then I have had before. A few built past what they had and drew more and a few built up slower. In my case, it could have been that they had too much for the bee density (I had added comb of my extracted supers to my smaller hives in the fall) and they only built up to the comb. They may have also been distressed and not as healthy due to not treating them. Either way, I did not get as much comb drawn as when the hives were young.

I think if you try it again, the bees will either swarm or move down. If the ideal is to run the hives like warre and remove one third or so of the comb every year, I am thinking that lots of the bees will play along though maybe not all of them. If you go to the extra step and get a comb or two down there, I think your odds would go up but it might be worth it to not do that. It might work just good enough. I would like my space to be on, right before the first dandelion bloom.

You know that I don't know but I have read abbys book and do know what my year here was like as far as comb production was.

This is my best attempt with this discussion for what it is worth.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> For comb drawing, I have the best luck with 1 or 2 frames, put right into the brood nest. More than that and I would fear chilling the brood.





gww said:


> You know that I don't know but I have read abbys book and do know what my year here was like as far as comb production was.


GG and GWW:

Thank you both for the helpful feedback. I appreciate you both.

As I was thinking about my response, I was reminded of Will Durant's quote that, _"Education is a progressive discovery of our ignorance"_. I find that I am often confronted with that reality in many aspects of my life, but certainly in beekeeping.

It seems there are many variables associated with comb building including but not limited to; the time of year, the available volume, the need (or lack thereof), whether the colony is overwintered or is a swarm / split, how healthy they are and annual forage and seasonal fluctuations to name a few.

For my part, I added empty volume to the bottom of several colonies at various points throughout the season (as early as February and as late as June) and only saw comb built in the bottom box on the colony that was: overwintered, manipulated early in the season, did not swarm, was pyramided-down and likely needed the space.

That said, I still wish to experiment with systematic comb renewal recognizing more personally now that it may never be as 'push-button simple' as I would like.

I recognize also that this type of goal needs to be aligned with one's overall management goals rather than simply as a 'pet project' on the side.

So what little I have learned over the past two seasons leads me to a few preferences / conclusions thus far related to drawn comb:

1. I don't particularly like working with the big, unwieldy colonies- particularly in the 8-frame medium set-up where they get tall and hard to manipulate. Making a conscious decision to limit hive volume likely plays-into future approaches to get new comb drawn-out.

2. I do not have near enough drawn comb- while it is hard enough to get drawn comb prepared, it is even more difficult when you are philosophically-opposed to supplemental feeding as a matter or course. So I likely need to either; temper my expectations for drawn comb and learn to be more patient or; purpose-feed a number of colonies for the expressed purpose of getting more comb drawn-out.

3. Recognize that failed swarms and dead-outs are a part of one's drawn comb inventory.

4. Take care of your drawn comb- I lost about a box-and-a-half of drawn comb in swarm traps that I left out too long this year. I need not repeat this same mistake twice.


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## Gray Goose

Russ, as for comb, it is getting, keeping, storing, protecting, recycling, using, all of it. Because it is your "inventory" Some has stores some don't etc.
I you use medium frames draw some as suppers, Extract. 4 or 5 a year is 40-50 frames. Realize if you grow comb count each year, you will either need to have increase, cull, or increase storage of the comb. How are you going to spend it?


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> How are you going to spend it?


Good points, GG. I appreciate your input. For now, I am way short so I have no trouble spending everything I can get my hands on, and that is before I let some get destroyed due to mismanagement!


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I still wish to experiment with systematic comb renewal recognizing more personally now that it may never be as 'push-button simple' as I would like.
> 
> ............
> 
> So what little I have learned over the past two seasons leads me to a few preferences / conclusions thus far related to drawn comb:
> 
> 1. I don't particularly like working with the big, unwieldy colonies- particularly in the 8-frame medium set-up where they get tall and hard to manipulate. Making a conscious decision to limit hive volume likely plays-into future approaches to get new comb drawn-out.
> 
> 2. I do not have near enough drawn comb- while it is hard enough to get drawn comb prepared, it is even more difficult when you are philosophically-opposed to supplemental feeding as a matter or course. So I likely need to either; temper my expectations for drawn comb and learn to be more patient or; purpose-feed a number of colonies for the expressed purpose of getting more comb drawn-out.
> 
> 3. Recognize that failed swarms and dead-outs are a part of one's drawn comb inventory.
> 
> 4. Take care of your drawn comb- I lost about a box-and-a-half of drawn comb in swarm traps that I left out too long this year. I need not repeat this same mistake twice.


Speaking of comb renewal, I do this (certainly, within the context of my own) by:
- targeted C&S directly from the brood nest from the dead-outs - conveniently, those piece-meal C&S frames will go back into the rotation next season for rebuilding
- the bees certainly rebuild combs in smaller increments much more readily (vs. the large increments); especially this is visibly in the natural comb/no-foundation mode - because you see very obvious gaps and holes (vs. less obvious not built foundation)
- the piece-meal C&S approach creates smaller-increment gaps in the brood combs after honey/perga harvest which then the bees quickly repair/rebuild/renew during the next build season.
- the above result in brood comb rotation/renewal.

I am not going to concern myself with the comb rotation being a theoretical infection transmission vector.
This in fact applies to everyone storing/reusing the combs anyway. 
Entire comb re-usability idea is a ticking time-bomb in theory (or maybe not?)
Fine, let us just ignore this time-bomb for the now.

See on this frame - you should see where I cut the combs chunks out and those gaps were rebuilt:








By this same logic, the compact format hives (CFHs) operate - the small increments.
I keep track of one such project/vlog for my own needs.
The vlogger/operator is very straightforward in that the decided to do away with comb storage and management altogether as not necessary.
Outside of very small emergency comb stash, he mostly just batch melts his entire comb inventory at the season end and markets the wax. 
Conveniently, large portion of his wooden ware just gets heat treated as a part of wax melting - a good thing for a commercial operator.
He states the bees build so well and quickly in his operation format, he is just not going worry anymore about the notorious "comb availability issue" (let the Dadant operators worry about it - his words).
For him the issue does not exist.
His frames - 12x4 inch. 
Talking about this format (which I like very so much):
https://www.google.com/search?q=Уда...KHfINCR8Q9QEwAnoECAEQDA#imgrc=biPhREqKNzvz1M:


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## GregB

JWPalmer said:


> Greg, my response was a little tongue in cheek. I did not truly doubt that he was familiar with the the Warre'. But, was suprised by the passage you quoted since that is exactly what Warre' was attempting to do.


Ok; now understood.


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## BigBlackBirds

1) New comb = powerhouse colonies and strong flows understanding that the price paid was a decreased crop. Put one box of foundation on everything you own OR dedicate a handful of hives to drawing comb and put many boxes on those few colonies. Sometimes I do both. 

2) Rotate small amounts of foundation into brood nest . But I find this primarily works for me very early in the year when certain requirements are meet. 

What I find doesnt work much for me---sticking foundation below brood nest or trying to get them to touch boxes of foundation early in the year even when pushed to point of crowding.


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## Litsinger

BigBlackBirds said:


> What I find doesnt work much for me---sticking foundation below brood nest or trying to get them to touch boxes of foundation early in the year even when pushed to point of crowding.


BigBlackBirds:

Thank you for your input and detailed description of what has worked for you. I sincerely appreciate it!

I remember Squarepeg mentioning that colonies are reticent to draw-out new comb prior to reproductive cut-off and it sounds like your experience has been similar.

I want to think through this issue more deeply, but I am interested in generally finding a means to get most colonies to draw out some new comb in most years understanding that I will pay a surplus honey penalty. 

Thank you again for your input and helpful reply- it is insightful.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> the bees certainly rebuild combs in smaller increments much more readily (vs. the large increments); especially this is visibly in the natural comb/no-foundation mode - because you see very obvious gaps and holes (vs. less obvious not built foundation)
> 
> ...
> 
> Entire comb re-usability idea is a ticking time-bomb in theory (or maybe not?)
> 
> ...
> 
> Conveniently, large portion of his wooden ware just gets heat treated as a part of wax melting - a good thing for a commercial operator.


GregV:

Great feedback. I always appreciate how you are able to come at things from a different perspective. You have mentioned partial comb removals before and this idea makes a lot of sense to me, especially in a foundationless perspective. While I may never utilize this as a routine approach, I can see a lot of situations where this might be a great option.

As regards the disease vector issue, I certainly appreciate how there are a lot of folks who have kept the same drawn comb for a lot of years (even multiple generations) with little issues. I temper this with the knowledge that there is little harm in having new comb, particularly if you are willing to take the surplus penalty.

Similarly, if one can build their management plan around periodic comb renewal I can see how having less-than-typical stored comb supers could be a workable solution.

All-in-all, I want to learn how to reliably increase my drawn comb inventory, but it is good to understand and appreciate how there are folks who are successful when even planning on a more 'crush-and-strain' model.

Thanks again for your response. I sincerely appreciate it!


----------



## BigBlackBirds

Litsinger said:


> BigBlackBirds:
> 
> Thank you for your input and detailed description of what has worked for you. I sincerely appreciate it!
> 
> I remember Squarepeg mentioning that colonies are reticent to draw-out new comb prior to reproductive cut-off and it sounds like your experience has been similar.
> 
> I want to think through this issue more deeply, but I am interested in generally finding a means to get most colonies to draw out some new comb in most years understanding that I will pay a surplus honey penalty.
> 
> Thank you again for your input and helpful reply- it is insightful.


Hey Litsinger--
There has to be something going on early in the year that limits the comb drawing desire (at least for me). I tried it again this past spring out of necessity. Took bees into 40 acre apple orchard around May 10th, blossoms hadnt opened yet, weather was cold and stayed that way for about 6-7 more days, when sun/heat finally arrived the apples popped along with danelions in full force. Super populated hives---primarily double deeps with a few set up deep/medium configuration--just overflowing with bees but not drawing cells yet. I didn't want to super the colonies up yet as have no real need for spring orchard honey and it just causes hassles when bees have to be trucked back out. And I didnt want to split them up too much as the orchard needed a good field force for pollination. So dropped boxes of foundation on around 16 and they never touched it but they did crowd and decide to start swarm prep and was forced to split them up. On 20 others I didn't have foundation ready so was forced to put on drawn honey supers to keep the brood nest from clogging. Those supers were filled and capped when pulled out and headed for summer honey yard around last day of May. Seems odd but happens to me over and over to varying degrees.

Now wait another 30 days and we start to see the first of the real summer honey flows around me. There can be some minors flows prior but the general flow where we produce honey runs from around first of July until 3rd week of August. Add those same boxes of foundation to hives across that flow and they are drawn and filled. My good drone source colonies (which serve for both mating yards and honey production) each can do 3 deep boxes of foundation year after year if I want. i dont extract deeps but use it for feeding newly mated singles as we head towards fall/winter and it then has replenished what comb departs me as nucs are sold in spring. I didn’t draw a huge number of deeps this year but I did put on over 100 mediums of foundation during this time period and I when I sorted after extracting over 90% of the frames were nicely drawn. 

on years when we have strong goldenrod flow its possible to get a deep drawn on a powerful colony but my experience has been that its more likely that you'll get partially drawn frames. i had 15-20 undrawn deeps left over as we entered late august this year that i threw on; this is just after the main summer crop has been pulled, weather still really warm, and basically way too many bees to fit back into a double deep. putting empty boxes on primarily gives them some breathing room. this year we had a good fall flow but most of those deeps were only partially (30-70%) drawn. i just leave them on hive over the winter and grab them next year. it does seem to cause the bees to jump on the boxes quicker the following year but not my first choice for comb drawing.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:
> 
> 8.	Be a beeKEEPER rather than a beeHAVER.


Given that I cannot make this point any better than Mr. Imirie, I will let him speak for himself:

_“Successful beekeeping is BOTH an art an a science. A beeHAVER starts a package in April and hopes for their success, plants his garden, fills his swimming pool, adds one super to his bees and hopes for their success, observes his bees from the back of his lawn mower before he leaves for vacation at the beach and hopes for their success, harvests his tomatoes, squash, cantaloupes in the cool of an August evening and hopes for the success of his bees, waits for a cool September weekend to collect his honey and finds that his bees only made about 10 pounds of honey, and BLAMES the queen producer who sold him the package of bees. In contrast, a beeKEEPER reads the writings of bee researchers and bee scientists and follows their new findings of management techniques, cares for the health of his bees by administering medical treatments that the scientists suggest and DO IT WHEN THE SCIENTIST SAYS TO DO IT, does not relegate his bee work to weekends but performs the needed work on what ever day is best for the bees, and attends bee meetings at many different sites to LEARN, LEARN, LEARN! What do you get for all this? Your reward is the self PRIDE of being successful, and enjoying the JOYS OF BEEKEEPING!”_

_“… the science of GOOD beekeeping is NOT designed to CHANGE natural bee BEHAVIOR, but rather for the beeHAVER to LEARN enough about proper hive management and management care and technique that he becomes a beeKEEPER whose bees can do all those desirable things rather than die, swarm, or make very little honey MY POINT IS RATHER SIMPLE - YOU HAVE TO LEARN MANAGEMENT CARE, HIVE TECHNIQUES, DISEASE TREATMENTS, BEE BEHAVIOR, HONEY PRODUCTION MANAGEMENT, and maybe most important, SELECTION OF A GOOD QUEEN.”_

_“So, just as one "climbs a mountain just to get to the top", let us all try to Upgrade our thinking from beeHAVER to beeKEEPER!”_

_“ASSUMING things is a mark of a beeHAVER, not a beeKEEPER.”_

_“NOW, you know why I created the terms beeHAVER and beeKEEPER. Any jerk can HAVE bees, but it takes just a little bit of WORK and some UNDERSTANDING to be a beeKEEPER, and that work must be done on BEE-TIME, not on the TIME most convenient for you.”_

_“Are you satisfied with just being a beeHAVER and having to buy new EXPENSIVE bees every year or so? With your intelligence, you could be a real fine beeKEEPER if you just paid as much attention to your bees as you do to_ [fill in the blank]_. Don't you want to find the excitement and JOYS OF BEEKEEPING that I have had for 70+ years?”_

Here are two ‘Pink Pages’ he wrote specifically on this subject:

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/1999_Jun_-_Upgrade_from_a_beeHAVER_to_a_beeKEEPER.html
http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/2000_Jul_-_Managing_Your_Bees_For_the_Next_9_Months.html


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## GregB

> A beeHAVER starts a package in April and hopes for their success, plants his garden, fills his swimming pool, adds one super to his bees and hopes for their success, observes his bees from the back of his lawn mower before he leaves for vacation at the beach and hopes for their success, harvests his tomatoes, squash, cantaloupes in the cool of an August evening and hopes for the success of his bees, waits for a cool September weekend to collect his honey and finds that his bees only made about 10 pounds of honey, and BLAMES the queen producer who sold him the package of bees. In contrast, a beeKEEPER reads the writings of bee researchers and bee scientists and follows their new findings of management techniques, cares for the health of his bees by administering medical treatments that the scientists suggest and DO IT WHEN THE SCIENTIST SAYS TO DO IT, does not relegate his bee work to weekends but performs the needed work on what ever day is best for the bees, and attends bee meetings at many different sites to LEARN, LEARN, LEARN! What do you get for all this? Your reward is the self PRIDE of being successful, and enjoying the JOYS OF BEEKEEPING!”


This simplification is so limited and narrow I am not even sure where to start hacking at it.....
And so I wont.


Not too much a fan of Mr. Imirie's sayings (nuclear physicist or not).
Especially, granted he categorized himself into the higher cast of the beeKEEPERs, I presume.
Sorry.


PS: unsure how he would ever categorize the bee tree runners (if he even knew of their existence).


----------



## Litsinger

BigBlackBirds said:


> Seems odd but happens to me over and over to varying degrees.
> 
> ...
> 
> Now wait another 30 days and we start to see the first of the real summer honey flows around me. There can be some minors flows prior but the general flow where we produce honey runs from around first of July until 3rd week of August. Add those same boxes of foundation to hives across that flow and they are drawn and filled. My good drone source colonies (which serve for both mating yards and honey production) each can do 3 deep boxes of foundation year after year if I want.
> 
> ...
> 
> this year we had a good fall flow but most of those deeps were only partially (30-70%) drawn. i just leave them on hive over the winter and grab them next year. it does seem to cause the bees to jump on the boxes quicker the following year but not my first choice for comb drawing.


BigBlackBirds:

Thank you again for the excellent write-up. I took the opportunity to read your reply, marinate in it for awhile and then come back and re-read it. So if I were to summarize what you wrote (and please feel welcome to correct):

1. In your experience, it is difficult to get early season comb drawn out, even with strong colonies and early nectar sources available.

2. You've had good success getting surplus comb drawn out by your healthy hives in your main flow period.

3. You've observed comb building during some fall flows but it has typically been only partially drawn. 

Accepting that we have very different flow profiles, where are you locating the empty boxes of foundation on your colonies during your summer flow that gets them drawn-out successfully? Directly above the brood nest?

I did observe some comb building in a few colonies during our fall flow this year, and like you have observed it was only partially done.

Thank you again for your help and input. I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> This simplification is so limited and narrow I am not even sure where to start hacking at it.....
> And so I wont.


GregV:

I appreciate your feedback, and I do think I know where you are coming from. 

For me, I tend to hold to the idiom of 'chewing on the meat and spitting out the bones'- so while I may never adopt some of Mr. Imirie's central tenants I think there is still much to be learned from his extensive knowledge of bee behavior and manipulation techniques in a tightly-managed setting.

More to the point of being a 'beeHAVER', I am certain I fit the definition though I take solace in the knowledge that George's most fundamental admonition toward upgrading to a 'beeKEEPER' was continuous learning and improving one's skills.

In this, I think we all might agree- regardless of where our education ultimately leads us.


----------



## BigBlackBirds

Litsinger said:


> BigBlackBirds:
> 
> Thank you again for the excellent write-up. I took the opportunity to read your reply, marinate in it for awhile and then come back and re-read it. So if I were to summarize what you wrote (and please feel welcome to correct):
> 
> 1. In your experience, it is difficult to get early season comb drawn out, even with strong colonies and early nectar sources available.
> 
> 2. You've had good success getting surplus comb drawn out by your healthy hives in your main flow period.
> 
> 3. You've observed comb building during some fall flows but it has typically been only partially drawn.
> 
> Accepting that we have very different flow profiles, where are you locating the empty boxes of foundation on your colonies during your summer flow that gets them drawn-out successfully? Directly above the brood nest?
> 
> I did observe some comb building in a few colonies during our fall flow this year, and like you have observed it was only partially done.
> 
> Thank you again for your help and input. I sincerely appreciate it!
> 
> Russ


I have the best luck with boxes directly above a brood nest both with and without an excluder. I generally have no problems using excluders on drawn comb for honey production but my observation with foundation is that the flow needs to be pretty strong if opt to use the excluder so often I dont put that on. Plus I don't use deeps for honey extraction so if they add pollen or lay in them I really don't care. If I have a fairly new started queen that is really going strong and has filled two boxes with brood (for me that means a May or early June mated queen that is still in full expansion mode by early July) my general thought is that you can get a deep box of foundation drawn faster without the excluder. Seems that they will go up and make some comb to give her more space in the third box--find most queens only use a small part of that box anyway and eventually she gets pushed back into the two main boxes by time i want that box for something else. However, deeps are heavy so I dont like manipulating them alot. If I'm adding a 2nd deep to be drawn I'll often pop the newly drawn box off and "bottom super" the hive with the next box of foundation and then throw the drawn box back on top of everything. But once two are drawn, anything else is thrown on the top as I don't care to handle them anymore than needed. I've also had pretty decent luck adding a box of foundation to a new queen that is still in a single. They will be pressed for space and draw her comb but my bees tend to struggle more drawing like that as a single only has so many resources to use compared to how many bees you have in a bigger unit.

If I want to draw spring comb before main flow, I tend to add foundation into the nest. For me that has been the best option to draw early in the year. However, its not my preferred route because I find it to be 1) rather limited process of getting 1-2-3 frames compared to a full box, 2) requires more manipulation and time to get good frames drawn. 

Here is how it does work for me. Timing wise this is when we are going into the transition from spring to summer. Basically in late April here as I'm prepping overwintered bees for sale. I'll use about 6 frames of brood completely covered with bees in a single deep box with foundation on the very outsides of the nest and honey frames being out farther against the walls. Normally i will have also dumped more bees into the box that were left over from nucs that are being sold (as you can only get so many bees into a 5 frame cardboard nuc box). So we are talking about a pretty jammed single. As those bees go into the full spring craziness of expansion (and that is what overwintered queens are known for) they'll readily draw the outside foundation as they have no place else to move and without a box on top to move up horizontal is the only option remaining. The downside is that you generally have to go back and turn the frames as they tend to work both frames at one time but only one side at a time so you have to swap it around for them if you want to speed up the process (the part where it takes time and is still slow drawing even with lots of bees). In some instances I will add a 3rd piece of foundation right between the brood frames. Often this works but I'm not a great fan of breaking up the nest AND i find that often i forget about that frame and assume it is nicely drawn but later find out that it was still only partially drawn (which annoys me alot!). And it works for me before they have become so congested that they want to swarm. I find the window of opportunity is pretty narrow.

Hope that gives you some more ideas


----------



## Litsinger

BigBlackBirds said:


> I have the best luck with boxes directly above a brood nest both with and without an excluder.
> 
> ...
> 
> If I'm adding a 2nd deep to be drawn I'll often pop the newly drawn box off and "bottom super" the hive with the next box of foundation and then throw the drawn box back on top of everything. But once two are drawn, anything else is thrown on the top as I don't care to handle them anymore than needed.
> 
> ...
> 
> If I want to draw spring comb before main flow, I tend to add foundation into the nest. For me that has been the best option to draw early in the year. However, its not my preferred route because I find it to be 1) rather limited process of getting 1-2-3 frames compared to a full box, 2) requires more manipulation and time to get good frames drawn.
> 
> ...
> 
> I find the window of opportunity is pretty narrow.


Thank you, BigBlackBirds. Your response is great and does give me some more ideas to consider. Succinctly, my thought all along has been in trying to devise a fairly straightforward and fairly predictable method to get whole boxes of comb drawn and systematically rotated out, something akin to Abbe Warre's nadiring method. As such, I started by nadiring (or under-supering) and empty box to the very bottom of the stack early in the season (among other times) and hoped that the colonies would draw this space out (with little success).

If I understood your response correctly, it sounds that if you want to get worker-cell comb drawn out for use in the brood nest you start by:

Box #1- a box of foundation installed directly above the active level of the broodnest.

Box #2- a box of foundation installed on the bottom board with the original brood box directly above this, and Box #1 directly above this.

Box #3 (and subsequent)- a box of foundation installed at the top of the stack.

If I have interpreted this manipulation sequence correctly, the part I am intrigued by is Box #2- why do you under-super it below the brood nest? Is it a function of seasonal progression? Have you found this is more effective than simply continuing to install the new box directly above the active nest line?

I am resigned to the fact that it may not be as simple as simply adding an empty box in the right location at the right time, but I (probably like most) am looking to minimize the amount of broodnest manipulations I need to make during the flow for all the obvious reasons.

Thank you again for your helpful information- I appreciate you taking the time to explain your process.

Russ


----------



## BigBlackBirds

Litsinger said:


> Thank you, BigBlackBirds. Your response is great and does give me some more ideas to consider. Succinctly, my thought all along has been in trying to devise a fairly straightforward and fairly predictable method to get whole boxes of comb drawn and systematically rotated out, something akin to Abbe Warre's nadiring method. As such, I started by nadiring (or under-supering) and empty box to the very bottom of the stack early in the season (among other times) and hoped that the colonies would draw this space out (with little success).
> 
> If I understood your response correctly, it sounds that if you want to get worker-cell comb drawn out for use in the brood nest you start by:
> 
> Box #1- a box of foundation installed directly above the active level of the broodnest.
> 
> Box #2- a box of foundation installed on the bottom board with the original brood box directly above this, and Box #1 directly above this.
> 
> Box #3 (and subsequent)- a box of foundation installed at the top of the stack.
> 
> If I have interpreted this manipulation sequence correctly, the part I am intrigued by is Box #2- why do you under-super it below the brood nest? Is it a function of seasonal progression? Have you found this is more effective than simply continuing to install the new box directly above the active nest line?
> 
> I am resigned to the fact that it may not be as simple as simply adding an empty box in the right location at the right time, but I (probably like most) am looking to minimize the amount of broodnest manipulations I need to make during the flow for all the obvious reasons.
> 
> Thank you again for your helpful information- I appreciate you taking the time to explain your process.
> 
> Russ


 Hi Russ
Sorry, i wasn't real clear on how place box #2 of foundation normally. 

Once we get into the season and things are rolling along, I seldom go into the actual brood nest area of a production or drone source hive unless something is wrong. My brood nest area is typically bottom two boxes (unless I'm running a single deep with an excluder which isn't uncommon either) and I just let them be. It's enough work to pull honey off a yard one time late in the summer to extract it; I don't have much desire to pull boxes off prior to extraction just to take a peek at things and then have to replace all those boxes. Even if the colonies don't have deeps on to draw comb they probably have 5-7 medium honey supers instead. I just keeps bees as a hobby these days and have fairly limited time available to work them so I need to be as efficient as possible. That first box of foundation simply goes onto the two brood box stack so now the hive is likely three deeps high. When it is drawn or nearly so, I just pop it off for a second and add the next box of foundation in the exact place where the first box of foundation was placed directly above the two brood boxes and then I stack the drawn/partially drawn box on top of it. So now we have a four stack high colony---two brood boxes on bottom, box of new foundation directly above the nest and then the newly drawn box on the very top. Given that I'm inclined to just throw a third box of foundation on top the entire pile, there should be no problem just plopping the 2nd box of foundation right on top of the first one that was drawn. I just make the swap out of habit.


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## Litsinger

BigBlackBirds said:


> So now we have a four stack high colony---two brood boxes on bottom, box of new foundation directly above the nest and then the newly drawn box on the very top. Given that I'm inclined to just throw a third box of foundation on top the entire pile, there should be no problem just plopping the 2nd box of foundation right on top of the first one that was drawn. I just make the swap out of habit.


BigBlackBirds:

Thank you for the reply- your response clarified things nicely. I really do appreciate you taking the time to explain your approach in such detail.

I will also apologize for my delay in reply as I have been away on vacation.

Thanks again for the great information. Have a great week.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:
> 
> 9.	Avoid anthropomorphic thinking when considering colony dynamics.


Mr. Imirie writes often of the concept of Anthropomorphic thinking- which is defined by Merriam-Webster’s as, _"ascribing human characteristics to nonhuman things."_

George’s basic premise is encapsulated in this axiom, _“… we must realize that our only course of becoming a good beekeeper is to LEARN TO THINK LIKE A BEE, or study what researchers call ‘BEE BEHAVIOR’.”_

In very basic terms, he is reminding us that bees are ultimately motivated by a very different set of innate behaviors which are ultimately derived from both their biology and the external stimuli rather than by the myriad factors which guide human reasoning and decision-making. His point is that if we will become students of 'bee behavior', we can better harness these inherent responses to our benefit. Conversely, if we approach beekeeping expecting colonies to think and reason like humans, we will be surprised (and no doubt disappointed) with the result. 

He expounds extensively on this concept in the following three (3) ‘Pink Pages’:

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/1999_Dec_-_More_Honey_and_More_Gentle_Bees.html
http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/Anthropomorphic.html
http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/1999_Jul_-_Can_You_Think_Like_a_Bee.html

Here is a brief synopsis of his thesis:

_“Honey bees don't think like humans, nor do they understand ANGER, KINDNESS, GIFTS, STEALING, CHEATING, INDIVIDUALITY, LOAFING, RETIREMENT or DEATH. Hence, one of the major mistakes made by bee novices is being anthropomorphic, i.e., ascribing human characteristics to nonhuman things. Bees think like bees, not like humans! You have to learn to think like a bee, because a bee can never learn to think like a human. Honey bees do have brains, but their knowledge was "put there when they were CREATED", and they have minimal learning ability in their short six weeks of life. From the very instant that they emerge from their wax cell, they know WHAT to do, WHEN to do it, and HOW to do it! They do NOT have to be taught, shown, or supervised! In contrast, I hope that I can tell you WHAT you can do and not do, WHEN to do it and not to, and HOW to do it as well as HOW NOT to do it.”_


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## trishbookworm

I think of the bees' thinking as more like rule-followers; and it's my job to figure out the rules. As well as the exceptions. 

So robbing isn't "naughty" or anything value-laden, just a behavior triggered by 1) unguarded sugar source and 2) many foragers out of work due to a dearth. 

Put on top of that, some colonies have a high inclination to "look for trouble" and others "mind their own business" longer.  Or it could be phrased that some colonies have a higher level of sending out foragers despite little being brought in, and so are the first to exploit a situation that leads to robbing behavior. There is likely a heritable component to this trait.

It's hard not to feel sympathy for those hard-working foragers, since empathy is a human emotion that we can extend to non-humans, like bees and cars and robots. But I do recognize that they don't feel existential angst about their lot in life.


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## Litsinger

trishbookworm said:


> I think of the bees' thinking as more like rule-followers; and it's my job to figure out the rules. As well as the exceptions.


Trish:

Thank you for your reply. I was glad to see your post. You explained what I was attempting to in a more succinct and much clearer way than I did- so for that I thank you!

In my personal experience it is equal parts maddening and fun to run up on something totally unexpected and attempt to ascertain what the bees were 'thinking'.

9 times out of 10, it becomes painfully obvious to me that beekeeper error is to blame- the other 1 out of 10 I chalk up to 'bees being bees'... but truth be known it's probably my fault too and I am just not smart enough to diagnose the problem I created .

Thank you again for your reply- I really appreciate it!

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> If I were asked to summarize his recommendations as succinctly as possible, I would outline them thus:
> 
> 10.	Miscellaneous musings.


While there were many insightful things I gleaned from the 'Pink Pages', there were four (4) miscellaneous recommendations that George made that I find particularly worthy of implementing, namely:

1. Minimizing colony inspections during the flow- _"Almost 70, years ago, I have never forgotten some wisdom Dr. James I. Hambleton gave me: He said, "Get all your hive work done by the time the nectar flow starts, then leave the bees alone, let them work and don't disturb them with inspections." When you light your smoker, gently smoke the bees, remove and inspect some frames, you have totally disrupted that colony for the rest of the day and they cease foraging for nectar while they try and clear the hive of smoke, empty their stomachs of honey that they have sucked up in preperation of flying to a new home, repairing the broken comb that you caused by moving frames, and resealing things with propolis to keep the weather outside where it belongs. If you inspect your colony one day each week during a nectar flow, you might lose 1/7th of your honey yield because you stopped their normal work schedule for a whole day out of seven."_

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/2000_Apr_-_Supering.html

2. Taking a look in January- _"... have you INSPECTED your bees in January? Don't give me that crap that it is too cold! Over and over, we hear the stories, I KNOW that my bees are alive, because I saw them flying in and out of the hive. Too often, your colony is dead, and what you saw was ROBBER bees. You CANNOT tell the colony condition without going INSIDE and inspecting! THAT IS A MUST! Just wait for a day that has a temperature over 55°-60° and open the hive for a quick inspection - SO SIMPLE!"_

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsult..._FEBRUARY_and_COLD_-_Are_your_bees_ALIVE.html

3. Employ a hive scale- _"... find and buy a hardware store platform scale if you want to know WHEN a nectar flow starts, when it peaks, and when it ends ..."_

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/2004_July_-_Where_Is_The_Honey.html

4. Smoking the hive and waiting a bit before tearing-in- _"... approach the colony that you want to inspect, and blow several whiffs of smoke directly into every entrance that the bees may have into the hive. NOW, YOU DO SOMETHING EXTREMELY DIFFICULT FOR MOST BEEKEEPERS - YOU GO AWAY, HAVE A COKE, WATCH THE BIRDS, OR LOOK FOR 4 LEAF CLOVERS FOR AT LEAST 60 SECONDS, BUT 2 MINUTES IS BETTER. When you return to the hive, you carefully blow a tiny whiff of smoke in the entrance, remove the inner cover, allow a whiff of smoke to drift across the bees on top of the frames and began frame removal for inspection. TOO MUCH SMOKE FORCES BEES TO FLY INTO THE AIR, AND THEY ARE MAD, SO THEY MIGHT STING YOU. Use just a little smoke often to keep them quiet and placid; and use nice, COOL, white, smoke, not hot, blue smoke with flames that BURN the bees and MAKE THEM STING."_

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/2004_-_Short_Course.html


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## AR1

55-60 degrees? In January? Where did this guy live? Lucky here to get a single day above freezing around here. Maybe in March, or a rare late February.


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> 55-60 degrees? In January? Where did this guy live? Lucky here to get a single day above freezing around here. Maybe in March, or a rare late February.


Indeed, AR.
What?


> Don't give me that crap that it is too cold!


55-60 is full-blown workday for everyone - bees and people.
Nothing to talk about (let alone write about).


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## JWPalmer

George Imerie lived in Maryland, about 150 miles north of me. The weather he described is accurate. For the past 25 years living in Richmond, I know that there will be several very warm days in January. Some years I have seen it as high as 70°F. Briefly. February, not so much. That is typically our coldest month. Many years our Spring starts in early March. Bear in mind that George was writing specifically to MD beekeepers.


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## AR1

JWPalmer said:


> George Imerie lived in Maryland, about 150 miles north of me. The weather he described is accurate. For the past 25 years living in Richmond, I know that there will be several very warm days in January. Some years I have seen it as high as 70°F. Briefly. February, not so much. That is typically our coldest month. Many years our Spring starts in early March. Bear in mind that George was writing specifically to MD beekeepers.


One might almost suspect that rules for beekeeping are local. I'll take a quick peek on a calm January day. No more.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> One might almost suspect that rules for beekeeping are local. I'll take a quick peek on a calm January day. No more.


AR1:

I think you hit the nail on the head. As JW mentioned, Mr. Imirie was located in the shadow of the DC metropolitan area, which is in the same USDA Climate Zone that I am located in here in Western Kentucky. As such, anyone outside of the Mid-South / Mid-Atlantic would be wise to adapt his timing suggestions based on their specific locale.

In more general terms, I believe what Mr. Imirie is suggesting is that it is prudent to take a quick peek inside a colony early in the brooding process but before foraging begins in earnest to see if they are: 

1. Alive.

2. Have sufficient stores.

3. Appear to be brooding properly.

He touches on this idea here:

http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/1999_Dec_-_More_Honey_and_More_Gentle_Bees.html

_"Unfortunately, most beeHAVERS as well as some beekeepers misunderstand the life of a bee in the winter or think anthropomorphically. Except in our Southern warmer states, brood rearing ceases for about 30-45 days some time between the end of November and Mid January in Central Maryland. When outside temperatures become about 55-60 degrees, bees start to form a cluster around the brood nest and this cluster becomes tighter and hence smaller in size as the temperature goes down. Bees do NOT heat the space inside a hive body or the area surrounding the cluster! Temperature inside a broodless cluster remain between 68 and 86 degrees even when the temperature go[es] as low as -25 (25 below zero). In late fall, the cluster is first formed in the front lower part of the hive and the upper part of the cluster is in contact with stored honey. As honey is consumed as the winter progresses, the cluster moves upward and towards the rear of the hive, distancing itself from the front entrance. Honey is converted into heat by the metabolic processes of the bees inside the cluster and this heat is conserved by the insulating qualities of the CLUSTER as well as the enclosed comb! Obviously, those bees most interior within the cluster rotate with the outermost bees so that all the clustered bees get some honey to eat and distribute the heat they produce to the others. Because the bees are dependent on the warmth of the cluster to remain mobile, they dare not leave the safety of the cluster for even an inch to secure more honey. Therefore, bees have difficulty moving HORIZONTALLY (sideways) to encompass a side frame. This creates a "chimney" effect of honey use in the colony; i.e., consuming honey VERTICALLY rather than horizontally. Bees don't defecate in the hive, so when the temperature raises to about 45 degrees or above and if the sun is shining, the bees will take a very short "cleansing flight", but return quickly before they become chilled and can't fly. Bees can begin foraging for pollen, nectar, or water when ever the temperature becomes 50-55 degrees. When brood rearing is in progress, in spite of the outside temperature, the brood must be kept at 91-96 degrees; and feeding this new brood rapidly depletes the store of honey in the colony. This is the reason that more colonies die of starvation in March in the Maryland area than any other month of the year."_


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## Litsinger

It is finally reliably cooler here now with lows in the 40's and highs in the 60's. There are a few hours of foraging ongoing with a little bit of orange pollen still coming in.

I pulled-off the hive-top feeders and took a quick peek inside all dozen hives- so far, so good.

It has been interesting to watch the Warre colonies decide how to winterize the entrance openings in each box. 

Specifically, the boxes I inherited have a 7/8" diameter hole in the middle of one of the narrow sides of each box. 

The Warre colonies are either in three or four boxes and thus have three or four openings.

Regardless of the current colony population, all five Warre colonies have begun propolizing some of the openings, and are consistently occluding the lower openings more than the upper openings.

They are not however completely closing off any of the openings.

Most of my free time is now devoted to cleaning-up my orchard disaster from this year.

If you would have asked me at the beginning of the year if I would have more success with bees or fruit trees, I certainly would not have said bees...


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## Litsinger

Dr. John Chambers sent me a PDF advance copy (attached) of his presentation tomorrow at the 'National Honey Show' entitled, _"Basic Honey Bee Genetics for Beekeepers"_.

This talk is a slightly different version of his talk which is posted on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9-FoSRrs4o

When the talk itself is posted, I will make a point to link it here.

For those of us who have been patiently awaiting his _"Four Incompatible Approaches to Bee Improvement"_ talk, he mentioned he is scheduled to give it at this February's 'Bee Improvers and Bee Breeders Association Conference'.

View attachment Basic Honey Bee Genetics for Beekeepers.pdf


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Dr. John Chambers sent me a PDF advance copy .........


Many Thanks!
A very good read.

*Summary: main learning points*
1. The main European honey bee subspecies were separated for millions of years by climatic and geographic barriers.
2. They followed independent evolutionary journeys and developed different genetic legacies.
3. They adapted in isolation from each other to particular environmental conditions.
4. Importation of honey bee stock disrupts genetically-determined environmental adaptation.
5. Modern bee keeping practice has all but destroyed natural selection pressure.
6. The combination of locally-adapted genetic diversity and natural selection pressure is absolutely crucial to global honey bee health.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Many Thanks!


Glad to do it, GregV. And thank you for posting the main summary points- this is helpful.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Glad to do it, GregV. And thank you for posting the main summary points- this is helpful.


Russ, this particular document really rings with me:



> We feed and treat our stock at various points in the annual cycle. *It is hard for unfit colonies to die if they are managed well.* Any meaningful notion of annual “survival of the fittest” has been obliterated.


I mean to slowly re-re-read it to absorb the details better.
Really like explanation of the HB genetics on the "popular science" level.

Have to say - I do feed. Darn!
But this is to compensate for the unnaturally late timing of some of the splits.
There are plenty of factors (local climate and the pests) to correct my doings - and they work fine.
So not too worried.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Have to say - I do feed. Darn!
> But this is to compensate for the unnaturally late timing of some of the splits.
> There are plenty of factors (local climate and the pests) to correct my doings - and they work fine.


GregV:

I too really appreciate Dr. Chamber's explanation of things at a level that is meaningful to me. What I take away from his and others' teaching on the subject of colony-level resistance is that there appear to be myriad factors involved and that our management (both individually and population-wide) can (and likely does) influence the expression of these factors.

The other thing I took note of was the apparent resiliency of the AMM subspecies in the face of such heavy importation of non-local stock. Dr. Chambers referenced that there are enough new genetics imported to the island to completely turn-over the managed bee population every 14 years and yet they find colonies with predominant AMM genetic markers still. Seems to lend some anecdotal support to the idea of relatively stable feral sub-populations within the genetic milieu we all find ourselves swimming in.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> ......... and yet they find colonies with predominant AMM genetic markers still. Seems to lend some anecdotal support to the idea of relatively stable feral sub-populations within the genetic milieu we all find ourselves swimming in.


The external environmental pressure does help to quickly weed out the non-sense traits (for the local context) and does not let those imported traits to gain solid foot-hold.
Most of the imported traits drop off rather quickly (as they should).

In this context, the last winter here (the brutal one) was a very good trait filtering event, I hope.


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## Litsinger

I have had an article entitled, _'Drone Saturation for Small Scale Operations'_ waiting patiently for a rainy day to be read. Written by Dr. Larry Connor and published in 'Bee Culture' in 2006, it presents some intriguing ideas for how a sideline beekeeper might assert control over the genetic make-up of a yard while operating with as little as 40 colonies.

The central idea is built around the idea of 'Drone Holder Colonies' which are, _"...made up of four frames of drone brood from target drone producing colonies, three or four frames of worker brood, adhering bees (no laying queen), and frames of pollen and honey." _

Along with this, a caged virgin queen is also maintained in each hive. 

In this approach, a frame of drone brood is removed from one's 40 production colonies every two weeks and is installed in the 'DHC's' which seeks to provide you with approximately 80,000 drones- or 80 drones per 1,000 queens. These 80,000 drones are maintained between 1/4 and 1/2 mile from the cell-building colonies to assure good DCA coverage.

While it is unlikely I will pursue systematic queen rearing in the foreseeable future, it is helpful to consider the dynamics represented in this approach and how they relate to fostering successful and diverse queen matings in one's own yard.

Additionally, Dr. Connor outlines a relatively straightforward and intuitive method for evaluating the available genetic resources over a two-year period.


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## Litsinger

Mr. Erik Österlund recently commented on recently published research surrounding the Gotland bees that caught my attention. The research is entitled, _‘Population genetics of ectoparasitic mites suggest arms race with honeybee hosts’_ and it was published this August in the journal ‘Scientific Reports’:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-47801-5.pdf

From the abstract:

_“The results show significant changes in the genetic structure of the mite populations during the time frame of this study. These changes were more pronounced in the V. destructor population infesting the mite-resistant honeybee colonies than in the mite-susceptible colonies. These results suggest that V. destructor populations are reciprocating, in a coevolutionary arms race, to the selection pressure induced by their honeybee host.”_

Three (3) main points stood out to me:

Varroa is limited in its ability to adapt due to genetic bottlenecking-

_“Host-parasite coevolutionary theory predicts that adapted host resistance traits, in response to parasitic pressure, are expected to induce a reciprocated selection pressure on the parasite, strong enough to drive counter adaptations towards a fitness optima. This ultimately results in an arms race with a series of adaptations and counter-adaptations between the host and the parasite. In most scenarios, the parasite, usually with a shorter generation time than its host, would have an advantage in this arms race. However, in this particular system, V. destructor is at a disadvantage due to an important factor: the invasive mite population in Europe has a low level of genetic diversity. This is in part due to a founder effect abolishing most genetic diversity during only a few invasion occasions from its original host, but also due to the reproductive biology of the mite with frequent incestuous mating.”_

Yet there are changes in the varroa population on Gotland (and likely everywhere else)-

"Hence, these independent but complementary analyses clearly indicate that V. destructor populations have changed within the eight years separating the collection of the current and historical samples. These changes led to a higher level of differentiation and an increased diversity of mite genotypes in the resistant colonies compared to the susceptible ones. These variations of population structure and diversity may reflect host-parasite interactions between A. mellifera and V. destructor, but could also be caused by an influx of foreign mite genotypes in the current samples, the development of resistance to acaricide treatments and/or genetic drift."

But these changes are not impacting the survivability of the isolated bee population on Gotland-

_“In 2006, Fries and Bommarco performed a cross-infection experiment with the Gotland resistant honeybee population to test for varying host responses to mites, sourced from either the resistant or susceptible populations. In their study, only 3 years before the historical samples of this study were taken, they found that mite source had no effect on the colonies and that Gotland colonies had significantly reduced mite infestation rates. Since their study was published, there has been a consensus in the scientific community to regard the mite as a “fixed factor” in the studies of underlying mechanisms to explain the long-term survival of naturally adapted honeybee populations, supported by the limited genetic diversity in the mite population. The historic mite samples of this study confirm the results of Fries and Bommarco’s in 2006 that the mite source did not influence the bees, since the mites in 2009, only 3 years later, did not significantly differ genetically between groups. However, by looking over a decade after Fries and Bommarco’s study it is evident that a change has occurred in the genetic structure of the mite populations between surviving and treated colonies. Performing a similar cross-infection experiment testing the current mite genotype in the Gotland resistant and susceptible colonies will show whether the genotypic differences observed in the current samples of this investigation are associated with phenotypic differences and will help understanding how the diversity of V. destructor populations observed at the genetic level may impact the survivability of their hosts. If the genetic changes on the neutral markers of this study are confirmed by phenotypic changes, the recently updated version of the genome of the mite could be used to unravel the genetic bases of the parasite adaptations. Inhibiting mite reproductive success is a well defined genetically inheritable trait of the Gotland mite-resistant honeybee population, even if the mechanisms explaining how the bees are capable of this are still not completely clear.”_


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## Litsinger

In preparation for the record-breaking cold weather predicted for my area this coming week, it has been interesting to see how the colonies in the Warre hives cluster as compared to those in the Langstroth set-ups.

Specifically, the Warre colonies are packing the entrance of the opening adjacent to the main cluster mass in similar fashion to how I have observed tree colonies do around here.

While I do not know whether this is a function of the aspect ratio of the volume of a Warre box versus a Langstroth box or is more driven by the effect of the larger horizontal insulating mass, it is interesting to observe the difference.

More generally, most of the colonies are starting out either in the top or second to the top box with but few exceptions.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Regardless of the current colony population, all five Warre colonies have begun propolizing some of the openings, and are consistently occluding the lower openings more than the upper openings.


An photographic example of what I am talking about- from the bottom up.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> An photographic example of what I am talking about- from the bottom up.
> 
> View attachment 52277
> View attachment 52279
> View attachment 52281
> View attachment 52283


They are adjusting the air flow, perhaps to match the cluster size or other perceived needs. Be interesting to see if they block more as time goes on and if they remove it in the spring.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> They are adjusting the air flow, perhaps to match the cluster size or other perceived needs. Be interesting to see if they block more as time goes on and if they remove it in the spring.


Thanks for the feedback, Gray Goose. This particular colony successfully overwintered last year and did in fact chew out one of the propolis plugs. I may or may not have 'helped out' on one of the others... how are your colonies holding up thus far?


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Thanks for the feedback, Gray Goose. This particular colony successfully overwintered last year and did in fact chew out one of the propolis plugs. I may or may not have 'helped out' on one of the others... how are your colonies holding up thus far?


I have 5 more to put Quit boxes on, and sugar blocks. they are the little ones I started this year maybe 12 -14 frames of bees in a 10 over 10 config.
we Have snow here and was 25F last nite so the first 40ish day i'll finish. Also somewhat caught with my pants down. have about 25 going into winter so either I'll need splits or supers in the spring. hope to get 15 or so thru. Early start to winter so if we have an early spring no worries. This is the most small hives I have ever tried to winter so I am keenly interested to see how they do. I did get a NUC thru last year so in that Experience I am trying to do more of them.
GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> IThis is the most small hives I have ever tried to winter so I am keenly interested to see how they do. I did get a NUC thru last year so in that Experience I am trying to do more of them.
> GG


I will be interested to hear how this effort turns out for you. Good luck with your final winter preps.

Have a great weekend.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Last night's low of 16 degrees F broke our previous low for this date of 24 degrees F. It afforded the opportunity to check cluster sizes and so far, so good but it is obviously still very early.

I am generally more concerned with the Warre colonies than the Langstroth colonies and I am most concerned with #1905 in particular.

This colony is a swarm caught on May 1st and while looking through the entrance openings I realized I have not been a good husbandman to them as they are housed in a stack of four boxes and they only have comb in the 1st and 3rd boxes and the cluster only occupies the 3rd box.

So while I will make a point to consolidate them during a return to more seasonable temperatures next week, they are a small cluster which has not made appreciable gains this year and are short on stores.

Do I:

1. Combine them with another colony?

2. Put some supplemental dry feed on them?

3. Button them up and let them manage the best they can?

It is situations like this that remind me that no matter how much you read about beekeeping, there a some things you just can't make effective decisions about until you have experimented and learned (by success or failure) what will or won't work in your specific situation and climate.


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## gww

russ
If the other bees will live with out the small hive, why not just try to winter them and see what happens? Might learn from it and would be no worse off if they die and the others live with out them. I would do the sugar block cause I like the ideal of it for emergency though my one small hive that died was too small for even that to help in the end. My opinion on mine is that small amounts of bees did not breathe enough water to keep the hard sugar usable cause they did not work it like my slightly bigger hives did. Just a guess though. Could just as easily be that the cluster was too small to make heat in the center of the mass for them to rotate in and out of. I watched a documentary of penguins once on how they gather together and are continually rotating from the edge to the center. Seems like bees might do a little of that to me though I don't know for sure.
Good luck
gww


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## Fusion_power

Bees rotate from the center of the cluster to the outer edges, then back to the center again. But there are exceptions. Some bees stay on the edge of the cluster for long periods of time only moving when they need to eat.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Do I:
> 
> 1. Combine them with another colony?
> 
> 2. Put some supplemental dry feed on them?
> 
> 3. Button them up and let them manage the best they can?


I am biased towards trying to winter them as-is even if small (so to try saving a potentially valuable queen - which you never know - a crappy general production queen could make a valuable TF queen). Year after year I am trying to improve on small cluster wintering. Equipment configuration is important with small cluster; a case in point - scary small cluster winter fine in poly hives - this is because the equipment does matter. Your Warre equipment maybe actually OK for this.

Now - the combines done during the cold season are possible where both queens survive (in different configurations).

I would 
1)insulate as best as possible (don't worry of humidity if cluster is small); 
2)make sure to put dry feed above - it is energy saving feed in winter - do the MC-style as it creates solid "ceiling" and cover the MC heap with plastic (so to trap some moisture into sugar - again, with the small cluster you need some moisture trapped, not ventilated away)


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## Litsinger

GWW, Fusion_Power and GregV:

You guys are great- thank you for your collective input.

My thought now will be to cut the stack down to three boxes, removing the empty volume from the top, making the active cluster topmost, and then swap the first and second boxes so there are two boxes of contiguous comb with an empty on the very bottom.

Then, install an eke above the cluster to apply a Mountain Camp feeding on top.

Currently, I have an inner cover installed and a 1" thick bit of insulation above that and below the outer cover- thinking through GregV's idea of putting a sheet of plastic above the eke and below the inner cover and assuming that since these Warre boxes have holes in each one, this might be something well worth experimenting with.

Thank you all again for your advice- now to scrounge up some 2X stock to make a Warre feeding rim...


----------



## Riverderwent

Litsinger said:


> I am generally more concerned with the Warre colonies than the Langstroth colonies and I am most concerned with #1905 in particular.
> 
> This colony is a swarm caught on May 1st and while looking through the entrance openings I realized I have not been a good husbandman to them as they are housed in a stack of four boxes and they only have comb in the 1st and 3rd boxes and the cluster only occupies the 3rd box.
> 
> So while I will make a point to consolidate them during a return to more seasonable temperatures next week, they are a small cluster which has not made appreciable gains this year and are short on stores.
> 
> Do I:
> 
> 1. Combine them with another colony?
> 
> 2. Put some supplemental dry feed on them?
> 
> 3. Button them up and let them manage the best they can?


I don’t have experience with Warre hives. I’d be cautious about interfering with their arrangement of the contents of the hive. It’s a bit of a risk depending on the cluster size and amount of stores, but if they haven’t done well enough since May 1st to survive winter, I’m not sure they add much to the gene pool. If they do survive without interference and flourish in the spring, you will know that you’ve got some frugal and robust bees. Risk and return.


----------



## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> ... but if they haven’t done well enough since May 1st to survive winter, I’m not sure they add much to the gene pool. If they do survive without interference and flourish in the spring, you will know that you’ve got some frugal and robust bees. Risk and return.


Great point, David. This is where experience comes into play and I find myself a bit strapped for it at the moment. Particularly in a TF context, how much intervention is too much? And is it situationally dependent?

Up to this point I have not defined any absolutes regarding my beekeeping efforts other than not chemically treating nor manipulating the colonies for the expressed purpose of managing mite levels.

If you don't mind sharing, what are your general precepts for evaluating incoming genetics to determine whether they have what it takes? And do these precepts make allowances for bad years, ill-timed swarms, etc.?

Again, I sincerely appreciate your perspective- helps me to remember that the primary goal is not to save every colony at all costs.


----------



## Riverderwent

Litsinger said:


> If you don't mind sharing, what are your general precepts for evaluating incoming genetics to determine whether they have what it takes? And do these precepts make allowances for bad years, ill-timed swarms, etc.?


I do make allowances for bad years, mostly by trying to leave more honey than they should need. But our summer dearth is as bad or worse than our typical winter, at least for my frugal bees, because they have not had time to downsize their population. My thought is that if they have an extra fifteen pounds, that will not significantly reduce what they will gather, so you will continue to have that extra fifteen pounds. Particularly since you can add an empty box during a flow. Like if you have a forty gallon gas tank and always fill up your gas tank when you have half a tank left, you won’t use any more gas than if you had a twenty gallon tank and filled up when it’s near empty. It only “costs” you more the first time you filled it up. And you’re less likely to ever run out of gas. Does that make sense?

I definitely make allowances for ill timed swarms by adding extra honey from a healthy hive. But I really am leery of ill timed swarms anyway, and generally don’t try to capture swarms or do cutouts in late summer or fall. That is based on my previous experiences. It would only come up for me if a late swarm wanders into a swarm trap.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GWW, Fusion_Power and GregV:
> ....thinking through GregV's idea of putting a sheet of plastic above the eke ......


You can always fold 1-2 corners of the plastic - thus creating an opening for the excessive moisture to escape (IF your config allows and IF you have the issue).
But in general - moisture is the issue with large clusters.

I use food-grade, freezer ZIP lock bags (1 gallon) - sliced open into a flat sheet.
A good way to up-cycle the old bags (say, it got torn/punctured) - the "food-grade" property sounds re-assuring - freezer-grade plastic is a strong material.
Does not need to be a complete seal either, just enough to trap some moisture into the sugar pile.

FYI - last year I did loose a small cluster to moisture (to the point of that MC mound was NOT hard but rather a pile of loose and moist sugar - a bad symptom - the MC mound must harden and stay that way - by design). The real issue was - bulk water was entering the hive somehow - the major contributor there and my lack of care.


----------



## Riverderwent

Litsinger said:


> If you don't mind sharing, what are your general precepts for evaluating incoming genetics to determine whether they have what it takes?


1. Put 'em in a hive. 2. Don't feed or treat. 3. Wait three years. 4. Look inside inside the box.


----------



## Gray Goose

Riverderwent said:


> 1. Put 'em in a hive. 2. Don't feed or treat. 3. Wait three years. 4. Look inside inside the box.


+1 simplicity is at times the best approach.  had to chuckle.


----------



## GregB

Riverderwent said:


> 1. Put 'em in a hive. 2. Don't feed or treat. 3. Wait three years. 4. Look inside inside the box.


Darn thing - I still need to feed!
I will forgive myself though - no ferals around me to help out.


----------



## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> 1. Put 'em in a hive. 2. Don't feed or treat. 3. Wait three years. 4. Look inside inside the box.


David:

Now this is a strategy that even I can understand!




Riverderwent said:


> I do make allowances for bad years, mostly by trying to leave more honey than they should need. But our summer dearth is as bad or worse than our typical winter, at least for my frugal bees, because they have not had time to downsize their population. My thought is that if they have an extra fifteen pounds, that will not significantly reduce what they will gather, so you will continue to have that extra fifteen pounds. Particularly since you can add an empty box during a flow. Like if you have a forty gallon gas tank and always fill up your gas tank when you have half a tank left, you won’t use any more gas than if you had a twenty gallon tank and filled up when it’s near empty. It only “costs” you more the first time you filled it up. And you’re less likely to ever run out of gas. Does that make sense?
> 
> I definitely make allowances for ill timed swarms by adding extra honey from a healthy hive. But I really am leery of ill timed swarms anyway, and generally don’t try to capture swarms or do cutouts in late summer or fall. That is based on my previous experiences. It would only come up for me if a late swarm wanders into a swarm trap.


In all seriousness, I do appreciate your helpful input and your feedback makes good intuitive sense to me. I still have a long way to go in learning what allowances (if any) should be made in the various situations that come up.

To this point, I have likely erred to the side of being overly gracious to first-year swarms under the assumption that it is difficult to get established.

That said, your admonition not to coddle them is sound, particularly when one is trying to promote resilient genetics.

So much to learn... thanks again for the advice.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> You can always fold 1-2 corners of the plastic - thus creating an opening for the excessive moisture to escape (IF your config allows and IF you have the issue).
> But in general - moisture is the issue with large clusters.


Thank you for the helpful feedback, GregV. I am going to ruminate on this idea some more, but it seems like a good idea to try. 

If nothing else, I want to learn how to have a more experimenting spirit like you do- so this seems like a low risk opportunity to attempt something different.

Thanks again-

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thank you for the helpful feedback, GregV. I am going to ruminate on this idea some more, but it seems like a good idea to try.
> 
> If nothing else, I want to learn how to have a more experimenting spirit like you do- so this seems like a low risk opportunity to attempt something different.
> 
> Thanks again-
> 
> Russ


Just make as many bees as possible next year.
Then experiment away.
You will kill only so many...


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> You will kill only so many...


Certainly true... but at heart I am still a 'tinker around the edges' kind of guy so I want to:

1. Be convinced there is a logical scientific basis for trying something.

2. Have a control group to compare the results to.

That said, I've learned that sometimes it is detrimental (or at least sub-optimal) to be too cautious as well.

So like most things in life, I am discovering that with beekeeping there are many situations where there is just no substitute to experience (good or ill).

Thanks again for the input.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Certainly true... but at heart I am still a 'tinker around the edges' kind of guy so I want to:
> 
> 1. Be convinced *there is a logical scientific basis for trying something.*
> 
> 2. Have a control group to compare the results to.
> 
> That said, I've learned that sometimes it is detrimental (or at least sub-optimal) to be too cautious as well.
> 
> So like most things in life, I am discovering that with beekeeping there are many situations where there is just no substitute to experience (good or ill).
> 
> Thanks again for the input.
> 
> Russ


Good luck, Russ, looking for some solid "logical scientific basis"; moreover to actually depend on it.


Time and again, I am finding how our brilliant researchers lack knowledge of some encyclopedia-level facts and common sense observations (and yet make rocket-science level conclusions).
As for me - I am back to re-reading the kids' books.

Basically, you can do your own science on the empirical level (the same as the notoriously criticized "black box" - that's the empirical level).
Why not.

Back home, I was already mocked a bit by the local experts for finding a sample of non-floral honey in my own backyard - because it is NOT possible in my area per the "science" (I was told).
You know - I used my kids' chemical lab kit to get that AND Everclear bottle from Walmart in place of lab-grade alcohol.
And so let the "scientists" do the "science" I was told.

Btw, some of the same local beekeeping experts also sheepishly refuse to publicly tell their bee survival #s for the winter 2019.
Why not?
My #s are always public; I don't care.

Whatever.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> My #s are always public; I don't care.


I'm with you on this GregV. Win-Lose-or-Draw, I think we all benefit by sharing what works, what doesn't, and trends we see in our apiaries as a means to disseminate information that might be helpful in unlocking whether (and if so, when) TF regimes show particular promise in various settings.

The beauty of the scientific method in my opinion is that one has to make a hypothesis, test it, assess repeat-ability and then subject their parameters, methods and results to public scrutiny (at least in an academic setting). So I say test-away. Should you (or anyone else for that matter) develop outcomes which depart from a study in question, it just serves as a reminder that we are often unable to identify all the variables that make for a cohesive whole.

Based on what I've read (a lot) and experienced for myself (a little) it seems that success in a TF context in particular is a multi-faceted thing that no-doubt involves a few variables that are at least under the beekeeper's indirect control and maybe a whole lot that are not.

This is the part that makes the TF experiment fun to me- trying to figure out if it can be done and if so, what does it look like (at least in my yard)?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I'm with you on this GregV. Win-Lose-or-Draw, I think we all benefit by sharing what works, what doesn't, and trends we see in our apiaries as a means to disseminate information that might be helpful in unlocking whether (and if so, when) TF regimes show particular promise in various settings.
> 
> The beauty of the scientific method in my opinion...........?


I guess my issue is this - where do you draw a line between the empirical science (the black box) and the "scientific?" (looking for the proper word here) science (the white box).

I don't believe many understand or care of the difference; or even simply looking down at the empirical science as if something left behind in 19th century and not worthy.

All the while the onions peels keep coming off and the "ultimate and final, and statistically proved knowledge" of today turns out just another empirical conclusion or observation (without really understanding the internals or outright wrong).

I suppose as long as we don't publish papers and claim some discoveries to our names, what do we care?
Hey, did you get that microscope? 
I forgot.


----------



## gww

Russ
I say that testing with things like your small hive really don't need any scientific value put to them. It was just a thing that was left like it was left at the time it was left and with nothing to really lose no matter the outcome. It might work or not this time and be different next but really causes no change in your situation either way it goes.

If the other hives are similar, they the chance of having similar outcomes come spring. If one of the others dies but some live, it will be for a different reason then you added or did not add bees to them.

If the small hive does live, it would show nothing except that it is possible. If it dies, it was probably meant to be. 

I really don't see a change in your status come spring and you really were left with what you were left with and will probably be left with again in years to come. Next time you might combine and then split in spring. Abby warre in his book said that if you measured winter clusters, you would find very little difference in cluster size and so if you combine, the hive might naturally slim down anyway. I don't know if abby is right on this but figure in my mind that you really don't need to learn from being left like you were. Hope is eternal and a spring surprise would be nice though.

The one thing that might be learned though is why the hive ended up the size it did. On my small hive that never built up, I am almost sure that the other hives were robbing it the whole time they were trying to grow. Why they were weak enough that that could happen, I have not figured out though. There is always next year to learn more though.
I am just gabbing though. 
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I suppose as long as we don't publish papers and claim some discoveries to our names, what do we care?
> Hey, did you get that microscope?
> I forgot.


Good post, GregV. This is strictly my opinion, but I think both approaches have their place and that most of us fall on the continuum between pure experimental science and applied science- and both can (and do) yield valuable observations.

Again, just my opinion but it seems to me what makes bee research so hard is not only the fact that one is studying the dynamics of a superorganism, but also it is difficult (if not impossible) to have one foot planted in academia and another in the practical management of honeybees for profit. 

I expect this is why folks like Randy Oliver are so highly respected- he seems to be able to remain on the cutting-edge of both pursuits.

That said, I expect that if you come up with bomb-proof genetics that laugh at varroa, you can work with flip-flops on and a beer in one hand, never swarm and produce 100+ pounds of surplus honey every year, you won't need to write any research papers to be noticed and relevant. 

Tongue-in-cheek, of course but noting there is more than one approach to being relevant in the beekeeping discussion but it will always go back to being able to perform.

So, for now I will keep being a 'black box' beekeeper but will also try to take advantage of any tools (i.e. a microscope) which might yield some clues as to what is going on inside the box.

On that topic, I did get the microscope and messed with it a bit. My next mite tray renewal I scheduled for around Christmastime, so I will make a point of taking some pictures and hanging them up here then.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Russ
> I say that testing with things like your small hive really don't need any scientific value put to them.
> 
> ...
> 
> I am just gabbing though.


GWW:

Great observations- I can't argue with anything you said. I am impressed with how well you are able to recall all these things you have read. I expect it is at least in part this excellent accumulation and retreaval of information that makes you such a successful beekeeper.

Regarding scientific value- I agree with you, and maybe what I should have said is that I always want to be purposeful in the decisions I make so that I am best-prepared to learn from them.

As an example- if we take it as a given that a small cluster should not (in general) experience a condensate problem while overwintering in my climate, I add the plastic assuming that it might- make no difference, slightly increase the moisture accumulation or significantly increase moisture retention to the point that the hive fails on this point. No matter what happens, I am trying to think in my mind how would I observe what is going on so I can determine whether adding the plastic is worth evaluating further in the future. 

Just as an example...

Now I am blabbing, but I suppose we beekeepers can afford to wax esoteric when we can't be in the hives. 

Besides, I am getting tired of cutting and splitting firewood!

Thanks again for your input. It is most appreciated.

Russ

p.s. You are exactly right that I should get to the bottom of why this particular colony didn't thrive this season. My excuse is that they are in one of the Warre hives with top bars only and I for one have yet to figure out how to do a through inspection of one without butchering it in the process. So I have contented myself by leaving them 'semi-hermetic'. Not at all sure this is going to be a workable solution in the long-run.


----------



## gww

russ


> p.s. You are exactly right that I should get to the bottom of why this particular colony didn't thrive this season. My excuse is that they are in one of the Warre hives with top bars only and I for one have yet to figure out how to do a through inspection of one without butchering it in the process. So I have contented myself by leaving them 'semi-hermetic'. Not at all sure this is going to be a workable solution in the long-run.


This is exactly the reason that I let my small warre die and did not intercede in any way. I was never sure till the end that the bees even had a queen due to not being able to look well enough. So I did not add nurse bees to try and help them and mostly just watched their progress by tipping and seeing how they progressed in comb building. I was surprised they made it as far as they did cause I was sure they were dead long before they died. I will say that now that I have just enough hives that I think I might survive most things and still end up with bees, I will probably let what happens happen if I ever put more bees in the warre again.

I am still interested in using the warre if it is the easiest way to hive a swarm or something (say just sitting there and me being to lazy to carry a lang down).
I really do not see anything wrong with putting some bees in the warre and then letting them do their own thing till they die with me just stealing the honey. I don't think that I would be interested in truly managing them or supporting them while I have bees in the langs cause the langs are just easier to "keep" bees in. I could have tried harder to save the warre but had langs and so why? Still, If I have enough bees, I do not feel bad of letting a warre do what it does.
Cheers
gww


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Good post, GregV. This is strictly my opinion, ......
> On that topic, I did get the microscope and messed with it a bit. My next mite tray renewal I scheduled for around Christmastime, so I will make a point of taking some pictures and hanging them up here then.


All good!
As long as we keep the sense of humor and don't pretend to have discovered a flaw in E=Mc^2, what do we care?

Let me repeat myself - have been slowly working through the recently purchased book of TS (The Life of the Honeybee....).
What can I say - I am torn.
TS: You publish books and you pretend to be an international expert and I like some of your ideas/works - and yet - I immediately find funny and strange claims/factoids/ambiguities in your books that I will strongly question, directly from my lowly couch. Now that is annoying.... I am talking of a well known researcher here.

Russ, can not wait for those microscope images.


----------



## GregB

gww said:


> russ
> ....
> I really do not see anything wrong with putting some bees in the warre and then letting them do their own thing till they die with me just stealing the honey. .....
> Cheers
> gww


Now, this is my favorite way!
Near zero inputs - lots of output!


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I really do not see anything wrong with putting some bees in the warre and then letting them do their own thing till they die with me just stealing the honey. I don't think that I would be interested in truly managing them or supporting them while I have bees in the langs cause the langs are just easier to "keep" bees in. I could have tried harder to save the warre but had langs and so why? Still, If I have enough bees, I do not feel bad of letting a warre do what it does.


Thanks, GWW. I think your sentiments largely reflect my own- the only caveat being that if I determine they are a lost cause without intervention, I want to reserve the right to experiment on them .

You always have a good perspective on things and I appreciate your input.

Have a great weekend- hope you are able to spend plenty of time in the tree-stand.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> As long as we keep the sense of humor and don't pretend to have discovered a flaw in E=Mc^2, what do we care?


I could not agree more- as is being discussed in another good thread here on Beesource, I imagine many of us ultimately keep bees for the intrinsic joy and satisfaction that comes in interacting with these fascinating insects- so whether I succeed wildly or fail miserably I am ultimately doing this primarily for the enjoyment and challenge. 

With nothing to hide, nothing to prove and nothing to sell I feel free to pursue this hobby with no real agenda other than trying to figure out if I can keep bees without treatments.

I expect that the more experience one has, the more opinionated one might become. Ultimately I am personally trying to maintain an open-mind about things and consider carefully information that is presented- even if on the surface it seems to conflict with my own way of thinking, and especially if it comes from folks who are well-respected in the industry. If nothing else, my thinking deeply about a contrary opinion might help clarify my own.

I'm rambling again- I suppose I would tend to give wide deference to Dr. Seeley (and others like him) given how closely he has studied honeybees and how much he has given to the craft while still recognizing that he (just like the rest of us) does not know everything (but he sure does know a lot more than I do ).


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ....
> 
> I'm rambling again- I suppose I would tend to give wide deference to Dr. Seeley (and others like him) given how closely he has studied honeybees and how much he has given to the craft while still recognizing that he (just like the rest of us) does not know everything (but he sure does know a lot more than I do ).


Granted all that (heck, I still am reading his book; will finish it too - it is a good and useful read, for sure)...

.... I still find him not appropriate (or is it evidence of ignorance? or poor proof reading?) to publicly state in the book as if he was the first to look into the natural bee dwellings. 
(I posted the hard evidence too).
I have more of these... 
(inconsistent and undocumented statements of swarm trap shape preferences, to begin with... one of my pet subjects)
(buried in the book and briefly mentioned in passing how his previous specifications of the bee tree dwellings are NOT accurate - people refer to those/quote them all over - well, then just say so publicly during your next Youtube presentation and put it away and done)
But enough for now.


----------



## gww

russ


> I want to reserve the right to experiment on them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I do my best to never be critical of any person who is the one doing the actual work. I try and help if I can and always hope that I am not hurting but try and curtail my trying to control anyone. I may not be good at it but that is the goal. I enjoy the chance to banter.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I do my best to never be critical of any person who is the one doing the actual work. I try and help if I can and always hope that I am not hurting but try and curtail my trying to control anyone. I may not be good at it but that is the goal. I enjoy the chance to banter.


This is a great sentiment and philosophy, GWW. I for one appreciate your input and always enjoy the banter.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I am generally more concerned with the Warre colonies than the Langstroth colonies and I am most concerned with #1905 in particular.
> 
> This colony is a swarm caught on May 1st and while looking through the entrance openings I realized I have not been a good husbandman to them as they are housed in a stack of four boxes and they only have comb in the 1st and 3rd boxes and the cluster only occupies the 3rd box.


With the return of more seasonable temperatures this coming week, I am thinking through my options with #1905. 

While my mindset may change as the years progress, my general philosophy has thus far been to do everything I can to position founder colonies to succeed (i.e. donor comb and/or honey) and should they successfully overwinter, consider them on their own.

So while I can't say for certain that #1905 will fail without my help, I would hate in retrospect to think I could have tilted the scales a bit in their favor.

It looks like Wednesday's high here is anticipated in the mid 60's with a low near 50 degrees F, so as of now I intend to:

1. Remove the empty box on the top of the stack.
2. Move the drawn (but empty) comb on the bottom of the stack to immediately below the active cluster.
3. Move the empty 2nd box to the bottom of the stack.
4. On top of all this, install a newly-constructed Warre feeding shim (2X4 stock cut to 15-1/2" X 12/1/2").
5. Put a mountain camp feeding in the shim.
6. Do what I can to seal-up the cracks.

I also hope to experiment with using a guitar string to carefully cut loose any comb anchored to the box below. I have seen videos of some Warre beekeepers use this to good effect.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> With the return of more seasonable temperatures this coming week, I am thinking through my options with #1905.


With a high near 62 degrees F today with very little wind and bright sunshine, I decided to take a look into #1905 and it is safe to say I was not prepared for what I found.

Specifically, when I removed the inner cover I found that this colony had comb in the top box but that the middle frames had fallen to the bottom of the box- presumably during the heat of summer. This might help partially explain their smaller cluster size and lack of stores.

To add insult to injury, there were about the equivalent of three frames left intact- some containing stores. Some of the loose cluster was in among these combs.

Not knowing what to do, I simply set the top box back on, installed the MC feeding and tried to button-up any cracks best I could. I am not sure if this dry feed will serve them any advantage if there is no comb immediately below it for them to cluster within.

While I won't argue that top-bar hives might be more bee-friendly, they certainly are not more beekeeper friendly, at least in my experience.

p.s. I tried the guitar string trick and it did not work for me- only left me with a laceration.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> While I won't argue that top-bar hives might be more bee-friendly, they certainly are not more beekeeper friendly, at least in my experience.
> 
> p.s. I tried the guitar string trick and it did not work for me- only left me with a laceration.
> 
> View attachment 52497
> View attachment 52499
> View attachment 52501



Them wires can cut you.

Cool Warre rig, Russ.
I really want to build a couple of "shallow Warre's" next season and try something completely new for me - the ergo-vertical hives.
Then maybe we could compare the notes.

As far as the the top bar hives - at least switch to the open-frames (not much more extra work) - immediately adds strength to the comb.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Then maybe we could compare the notes.


Thanks for the reply, GregV. I would certainly look forward to comparing notes, though I confess I might not be able to add much to the conversation.



GregV said:


> As far as the the top bar hives - at least switch to the open-frames (not much more extra work) - immediately adds strength to the comb.


This is a good suggestion- given that I have taken a decidedly 'hands-off' approach with these Warres I am somewhat surprised that this happened. If this becomes a routine occurrence it seems that it would be prudent for me to develop a means to help-out. 

It certainly raises the specter of bar selection as a design feature in top bar applications. These inherited top bars themselves are completely flat on the bottom- and this may represent a point of failure versus a round or wedge profile.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thanks for the reply, GregV. I would certainly look forward to comparing notes, though I confess I might not be able to add much to the conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good suggestion- given that I have taken a decidedly 'hands-off' approach with these Warres I am somewhat surprised that this happened. If this becomes a routine occurrence it seems that it would be prudent for me to develop a means to help-out.
> 
> It certainly raises the specter of bar selection as a design feature in top bar applications. These inherited top bars themselves are completely flat on the bottom- and this may represent a point of failure versus a round or wedge profile.


I don't know, Russ, why there is a perception of top bars being "bee friendly".
They are not anymore bee friendly than full frames. 
Either will direct the bees to build strictly parallel combs (not what bees do in nature normally and consistently).

Natural comb, however, IS bee friendly.
I would subscribe to this idea 100%.

Certainly, a structure with square angles is just asking for a marginally more complicated frame - because you can do it very cheaply and quickly (vs. the notorious top-bar only).
While the additional supports afforded by just marginally more complicated frames are really a great bang for the buck.
So the Warre variants are just asking for open frames (IF not the full frames, optionally).

With with that, I never understood the unnecessary complexity of so-called "simple" KTBH (the "K" version).

KTBH is not simple (the particulars of the trove with the irregular angles and depth; the loaded bar handling particulars; the fragility of the comb only attached to a bar IF any significant size/load present).
It is also complicating the equipment/comb sizing and configuration (again, due to a single point of comb attachment limiting the entire hive possibilities).
It is also complicating the compatibility with the other equipment around you.

What IS simple - right-angle/single-tier based equipment with open frames (sized up to be compatible to the other equipment designs).
You now can do a long hive; you can do a tall hive; you can do a square hive; you can even do a multi-body hive - a modified Warre.
You can exchange bees/equipment with the Lang systems - easily.
A cardboard computer box filled with scraps will do. 
Now, this is simple, dirt cheap, AND yet flexible.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> With a high near 62 degrees F today with very little wind and bright sunshine, I decided to take a look into #1905 and it is safe to say I was not prepared for what I found.
> 
> Specifically, when I removed the inner cover I found that this colony had comb in the top box but that the middle frames had fallen to the bottom of the box- presumably during the heat of summer. This might help partially explain their smaller cluster size and lack of stores.
> 
> To add insult to injury, there were about the equivalent of three frames left intact- some containing stores. Some of the loose cluster was in among these combs.
> 
> Not knowing what to do, I simply set the top box back on, installed the MC feeding and tried to button-up any cracks best I could. I am not sure if this dry feed will serve them any advantage if there is no comb immediately below it for them to cluster within.
> 
> While I won't argue that top-bar hives might be more bee-friendly, they certainly are not more beekeeper friendly, at least in my experience.
> 
> p.s. I tried the guitar string trick and it did not work for me- only left me with a laceration.
> 
> View attachment 52497
> View attachment 52499
> View attachment 52501


Russ,

IMO either shade in summer or more air flow is needed. if the combs melted loose then it is too hot in the hive. Maybe lighter color paint. I have most of mine on the east side of a tree so afternoon sun is blocked.
perhaps a "super" with several holes for late june , july , and Aug, then pull it for honey in Sept.
GG


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> What IS simple - right-angle/single-tier based equipment with open frames (sized up to be compatible to the other equipment designs).


Great point, GregV. I have always thought your idea of adapting Langstroth frames to fit in all your various hive styles is a genius stroke.

I believe the thought-process behind these particular Warre hives (based on my conversations with their builder) was simplicity in construction and a minimalist approach to the overall number of parts needing to be constructed and employed in a complete set-up. 

From that perspective, I see a lot of wisdom in the design, and having them around has caused me to recognize (with the help of some of your posts) that you can pretty well keep bees in just about any available volume that can be kept relatively dry inside and is defensible if you are prepared for the eventual challenges that might come in needing to inspect them and possibly harvest comb and/or honey from them.

So accepting these limitations, I am prepared to allow these Warres to serve as 'resource hives' provided that this bit of comb failure doesn't become routine. 

If it does, I am definitely pursuing your suggestion to utilize some sort of modified Warre frame. Here is the 'Warre Store's' solution for reference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLw4PLCGnRw


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Russ,
> 
> IMO either shade in summer or more air flow is needed. if the combs melted loose then it is too hot in the hive. Maybe lighter color paint. I have most of mine on the east side of a tree so afternoon sun is blocked.
> perhaps a "super" with several holes for late june , july , and Aug, then pull it for honey in Sept.
> GG


Gray Goose:

Thank you for the feedback- you make a great point. While this hive is not in direct sun (it is located at the end of a roofed equipment shed), it certainly could be getting too hot in there. Your suggestion to apply a ventilation 'super' in the summer sounds like a brilliant idea to me.

Last year, I was very diligent about providing top ventilation during the summer months, and this year I didn't incorporate it at all. I definitely noted that the colonies had a tougher time getting nectar cured and capped.

Anecdotally, you might recall that these hives experienced significant bearding during the summer months so that in my mind adds even more credence to your theory.

Thank you again for the helpful feedback. How are your colonies faring so far?


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I am not sure if this dry feed will serve them any advantage if there is no comb immediately below it for them to cluster within.


All's quiet here on the home front and still 12/12 knowing it is still very early. We've only had one stretch of really cold weather thus far.

While I wish I could capture a picture of it, I observed Hive #1905 gaining access to the Mountain Camp feeding by way of festooning. Specifically, by looking in the entrance of the very top box I can see two chains of bees leading from one of the loose clusters of bees on the South side of the top box to the back of the feeding rim. It also looks like this hive is sending out foragers in marginal weather (high of 45 degrees F today) to gather water (I assume).

I just finished reading Brother Adam's_ 'Breeding the Honeybee'_ and it was definitely as advertised. It is easy to conclude why his observations carry so much weight in the apicultural world. I hope to boil-down some of his more seminal observations and how I see they might relate to a TF paradigm in the coming weeks.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I just finished reading Brother Adam's_ 'Breeding the Honeybee'_ and it was definitely as advertised. It is easy to conclude why his observations carry so much weight in the apicultural world. I hope to boil-down some of his more seminal observations and how I see they might relate to a TF paradigm in the coming weeks.


My recent read through Brother Adam’s _Breeding the Honeybee_ was enjoyable through-and-through, not only for the thought-provoking precepts it contained but also for the biographical sketch of a man who devoted his life to better understanding the innate subtleties and genetic secrets of the honeybee. 

It so thoroughly whetted my appetite that I immediately had to read his book _In Search of the Best Strains of Bees_ – and I am glad I did. This book provides the necessary context and historical understanding of the geographical dynamics which have shaped the known races of honeybee.

This deep understanding in-turn shaped Brother Adam’s approach to both bee improvement and advocacy for protection of isolated races of honeybee- to which we are all indebted.

Indeed, it is no exaggeration nor boasting when he notes (p. 53), _“I am unaware of anyone possessing a similar range of experience in the sphere of cross breeding and the formation of new genetic combinations nor anybody with a similar comprehensive knowledge of the various geographical races of the honeybee and their respective characteristics, gained at first-hand. This fund of information has moreover been acquired over a period of close on seventy years by means of an extensive and intensive system of beekeeping, founded on the broadest possible basis.”_

His writing is elegant, precise and succinct with an impressive vocabulary made even more remarkable when one recognizes that he personally translated our English versions from his native tongue.

For those who are unfamiliar with his life and his work, the following link gives a good basic overview:

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Brother-Adam

If one had to summarize Brother Adam’s bee improvement efforts in a single sentence, they might turn to the book _More than Honey: The Survival of Bees and The Future of Our World_ which remarks (p. 71), _“Brother Adam’s credo, proclaimed in countless lectures and publications is as follows: Create as broad a genetic basis as possible and maintain it!” _

While I cannot hope to do his work any justice, there are seven (7) main pillars I have been contemplating in the context of the current efforts to breed for varroa resistance, as follows:

1.	Nature’s Aim in Breeding
2.	Local Adaptation
3.	Vitality
4.	Inbreeding
5.	Man’s Aim in Breeding
6.	Selection Principles
7.	Breeding as a Means of Combating Disease

I will endeavor to offer what little I can to each of these precepts over the coming weeks, but ultimately I hope to simply allow Brother Adam’s words to speak for themselves and present them in a manner concise enough to allow for rapid consumption. 

I welcome all to participate in the discussion.


----------



## Litsinger

#1905 continues to be more active than the other colonies during marginal weather and has been observed hauling out the sugar supplied for emergency feed. They have now made it through the 'sugar dome' and there are a few bees working on it from the top.

Makes me wonder if I have done more harm than good in this specific instance...


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> If one had to summarize Brother Adam’s bee improvement efforts in a single sentence, they might turn to the book _More than Honey: The Survival of Bees and The Future of Our World_ which remarks (p. 71), _“Brother Adam’s credo, proclaimed in countless lectures and publications is as follows: Create as broad a genetic basis as possible and maintain it!” _


Before undertaking a discussion of the main tenants of Brother Adam's observations, I considered it prudent to speak briefly of his approach to bee improvement- which while rooted in genetic theory were firmly grounded in actual observable results.

In a 1991 article in 'American Bee Journal' entitled _An Inescapable Challenge_, Brother Adam considers how the beekeeping community-at-large should approach and evaluate efforts to combat the ascendant varroa menace, writing it part that, _“Results obtained in the laboratory, secured in the absence of the specific colony influences, are unfortunately all too often given a universally applicable significance. The actual results secured are in no case questioned; their general validity merely assumed. Obviously, the actual reactions within a normal free-flying colony must determine the issue in every case. When in doubt, A. I. Root used to say: “Let the bees tell you.” I have here in mind the massive loss of colonies, occurring at the present in North America. These could have been largely avoided if the wide long-term results, based on practical experience, had been heeded in time.” _

Here he is observing the past North American response to tracheal mite with the as-yet undetermined response to the varroa mite and suggesting that our collective history dealing with the one might yield clues for how we might approach the other.

In his book 'In Search of the Best Strains of Bees' he remarks that he admires leaders in the field of apiculture who are, _"... men endowed with a through grasp of the fundamentals of beekeeping – men of wide vision and judgment, who are able to cut a clear path through the tangle of purely theoretical considerations and prejudices, and who will not allow themselves to be led into barren deserts of a pseudo-scientific bee culture.”_ [p. 43]

Said more directly, he notes in the same text that, _“Theoretical advantages and drawbacks, when put to the ‘acid test’ of severe practical beekeeping, prove all too often fictitious.”_ [p. 31]

Ultimately, I take all this to mean that while we should certainly be students of genetic theory and stay up-to-date on the latest academic research, our ultimate focus should be on the actual results in our specific situation- and that these results (for good or ill) should form the primary basis for our subsequent efforts.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> #1905 continues to be more active than the other colonies during marginal weather and has been observed hauling out the sugar supplied for emergency feed. They have now made it through the 'sugar dome' and there are a few bees working on it from the top.
> 
> Makes me wonder if I have done more harm than good in this specific instance...
> 
> View attachment 52783
> View attachment 52785
> View attachment 52787


Hunker down and don't worry too much.
For sure, they will not drag the entire dome away.


----------



## gww

Russ
I concur with greg. I think it is more possible you will be happy with your sugar block.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Hunker down and don't worry too much.
> For sure, they will not drag the entire dome away.





gww said:


> Russ
> I concur with greg. I think it is more possible you will be happy with your sugar block.


GregV and GWW:

Thank you both for your input. I sincerely appreciate it!

Have a great week.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 1.	Nature’s Aim in Breeding


Brother Adam gives significant weight to the fundamental mechanics of the honeybee's natural mating framework because he recognizes that systematic progress in bee improvement can only be made when we closely adhere to these immutable principles. He writes,

_“The first point we must deal with is Nature’s own breeding method. This is essential because this shows us the right lines we must always keep to in all our procedures. To ignore them inevitably leads sooner or later to failure.” _[p. 80]

So what does Brother Adam see as Nature's chief aim in breeding?

In his book 'In Search of the Best Strains of Bees' he makes the point that, _“… Nature with the means at her disposal has in no way produced a ‘best bee’ or an ‘ideal bee’, still less a race of bees which answers all the desire and needs of the modern beekeeper. The results of evaluating the different races makes one thing clear: every race has its advantages and its drawbacks, its good and its bad characteristics linked together and emphasized in a host of different ways, which have been determined arbitrarily by environment and chance.”_ [p. 206]

So it is plain that Brother Adam does not assume that Nature will produce the perfect bee (even in it's stable, regionally-adapted setting), so what is Nature's goal?

He unambiguously states that, _“Nature’s aim in breeding is limited exclusively to the preservation and dissemination of a species and her sole means of doing this is a ruthless selection. Whatever could not adapt itself to a given environment was without exception left to its doom. The one aim was the survival of the most adaptable and the fittest."_ [p. 6]

He goes on to note,_ “In no instance does Nature breed for the highest performance per colony, but only the preservation of the species and its adaptation to existing circumstances.”_ [p. 80]

So we see here that survival is the primary aim of Nature's breeding program and that selection through either death or adaptation is the tool utilized to affect this end.


----------



## Litsinger

This might be common knowledge to many of you in the TF realm, but I recently came across this compendium of resources from the Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association that is a repository of many of the research papers associated with this US-based effort- I've learned a lot from reading through some of these papers thus far:

http://www.russianbreeder.org/mechanisms-of-resistance.html


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> _“The first point we must deal with is Nature’s own breeding method. This is essential because this shows us the right lines we must always keep to in all our procedures. To ignore them inevitably leads sooner or later to failure.” _[p. 80]


Building on this theme, I wanted to tie together a few loose ends related to Brother Adam's observations surrounding Nature's breeding method.

At the outset, it appears that one central component of sustained natural reproduction that Brother Adam saw as preeminent is the role of polyandry:

_“Multiple mating of queens is without a doubt one of the most important measures devised by Nature to preserve the vitality of the honeybee. At the same time it acts as a counter to the many undesirable consequences of parthenogenesis.”_ [p. 21]

For those like me who do not know what parthenogenesis is, it is defined by the Encyclopaedia Britannica as, _"... a reproductive strategy that involves development of a ... gamete (sex cell) without fertilization."_

In this instance, Brother Adam is referring to the fact that drones are produced from unfertilized eggs which in-turn means that all their sperm are identical and represent a genetic reflection of their mother. Thus, Brother Adam sees this as one of the most significant contributors to inbreeding depression in closed honeybee populations. 

To wit, frequent incursions of unique genetic resources are required to maintain heterozygosity (and thus vigor) in honeybees.

Attendant to this, Brother Adam observes, _“Uniformity, whether of external features or of physiological traits, plays no part in Nature’s design at any time.” _[p.80]

In fact, it might almost be said that honeybees go to great lengths to maintain genetic diversity when afforded the opportunity to do so.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> This might be common knowledge to many of you in the TF realm, but I recently came across this compendium of resources from the Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association that is a repository of many of the research papers associated with this US-based effort- I've learned a lot from reading through some of these papers thus far:
> 
> http://www.russianbreeder.org/mechanisms-of-resistance.html


Interesting read Russ, Thanks for posting.
GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Interesting read Russ, Thanks for posting.
> GG


Glad to do it, Gray Goose. Thank you for all your help and input along the way. I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Brother Adam observes, _“Uniformity, whether of external features or of physiological traits, plays no part in Nature’s design at any time.” _[p.80]


One final thought from Brother Adam regarding Nature's aim for breeding surrounds this idea of uniformity and its implications for the managed apiary. 

In his book 'In Search of the Best Strains of Bees' he bluntly remarks that, _“Mongrels are of no value whatever for breeding.”_ [p. 20]

This he notes even as he also suggests that, _“... bees which have been preserved by Nature for millions of years can survive in modern conditions and be an economic proposition without the beekeeper having to resort to breeding. There will be no notably high averages of honey per colony gained with a minimal expenditure of labour, but such beekeeping can be profitable.” _[p. 7]

So how do we reconcile these statements? I *think* the secret is in ones' beekeeping goals- namely ones' breeding approach (or lack thereof) should align with the fundamentals of bee reproduction and attendant results.

More specifically, Brother Adam defined his breeding goal as, _"...the development of a strain that will produce the maximum returns with a minimum of labour."_ [_Best Strains_ p. 43]

And the only way he saw he could predictably accomplish this goal was, _"...by cross-breeding, by combining in one strain, as far as possible, the desirable characteristics of the various geographical races. Nature can never bring about such a combination; it can only be effected by the direct intervention of man."_ [_Best Strains_ p. 43] 

Thus I would understand Brother Adam's thoroughly-considered opinion to be as follows:

1. Nature breeds exclusively for survival expressed in colonies with a wide (and ever changing) set of internal and external traits. These traits will seek to impart vigor but may or may not align with the management goals of the beekeeper.

2. Mongrels (containing a wide and unknown genetic make-up) will produce unpredictable results when breeding with other genetic strains which may or may not support the beekeeper's objectives.

3. Isolated racial strains of honeybees provide the most-suitable breeding resources due in large part to their relative homozygosity. When crossed with other isolated strains in a consistent manner (i.e. Italian queen with Carniolan drone and vice versa), a relatively predictable outcome will ensue. 

Thus, in keeping with his stated objective, Brother Adam would meticulously conduct close-mated cross-breeding experiments between isolated strains and study the results for a period of years to ascertain whether the combination would seek to augment his breeding goals. In fact, one can review all his breeding notes for the years 1915 - 1922 (less the war years) here:

http://www.pedigreeapis.org/elver/ori/origin-en.html

So I am left to conclude that those of us who live in areas with a wide and ever-changing genetic background really only have two options:

1. Utilize a strict and consistent system of closed-mating (either by breeding isolation or by frequent mated queen introductions) to maintain a predictable set of traits.

2. Assume the benefits, liabilities and unpredictability of the local genetic population.

This is obviously an oversimplification but does possibly help explain why specific traits (i.e. disease resistance) might be difficult to sustain in open-mated populations or why feral survival might be expressed in such wide and disparate modes in different areas, different years and different colonies.


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## msl

> So I am left to conclude that those of us who live in areas with a wide and ever-changing genetic background really only have two options:
> 
> 1. Utilize a strict and consistent system of closed-mating (either by breeding isolation or by frequent mated queen introductions) to maintain a predictable set of traits.
> 
> 2. Assume the benefits, liabilities and unpredictability of the local genetic population.


:applause::applause::applause:
well put 
However I think there is a 3rd option, Jon Kefuss' work suggests that you could pull it off by grafting and using cells/virgins as, and that means as long as you have a large eunff sample size to select a breeder from (maybe by working in a group) you could graft and requeen and get some trait contoral. 

From a Dee Lusby Artical 


> The strongest tool that a beekeeper has for controlling colony genetics is the grafting needle. Colony characteristics that are favorable to a particular beekeeping operation or are adapted for a specific geographic area can be increased by grafting queens from colonies that possess the desired traits. By grafting their own queens, beekeepers can create lines of bees tailored for the conditions of their apiary sites and beekeeping practices.


https://beesource.com/point-of-view...ng-for-queens-with-shorter-development-times/

but for "some" reason beekeepers don't seem to like to work in groups, this leaves the little guy with no choice but to requeen regularly with purched genetics or to accept the random winds of change


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> However I think there is a 3rd option...


MSL:

Thank you for your input. I sincerely appreciate your reply, and you are likely on to something.

While researching Brother Adam, I ran-across the following genome sequencing research from last year that which noted, _"A phylogenetic analysis, suggested that the matriline ‘Buckfast bee’ has remained most closely related to the A. mellifera ligustica race from which it originated in 1917, despite being cross-bred with many other A. mellifera races over the past 100 years."_

Meaning (as Brother Adam knew) the matriline exerts a significantly greater influence on the resultant genetic cross such that even after over 100 years, _"The genetic distance between the ‘Buckfast bee’ and A. m. ligustica mitochondrial genome was 0.00036, which corresponds well to the genetic distance generally observed within A. mellifera subspecies."_

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23802359.2018.1450660









p.s. Dr. John Kefuss is next on my reading list...


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> MSL:
> 
> Thank you for your input. I sincerely appreciate your reply, and you are likely on to something.
> 
> While researching Brother Adam, I ran-across the following genome sequencing research from last year that which noted, _"A phylogenetic analysis, suggested that the matriline ‘Buckfast bee’ has remained most closely related to the A. mellifera ligustica race from which it originated in 1917, despite being cross-bred with many other A. mellifera races over the past 100 years."_
> 
> Meaning (as Brother Adam knew) the matriline exerts a significantly greater influence on the resultant genetic cross such that even after over 100 years, _"The genetic distance between the ‘Buckfast bee’ and A. m. ligustica mitochondrial genome was 0.00036, which corresponds well to the genetic distance generally observed within A. mellifera subspecies."_
> 
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23802359.2018.1450660
> 
> View attachment 52861
> 
> 
> p.s. Dr. John Kefuss is next on my reading list...


The closeness of Buckfast mitochondrial genome to Italian bees only confirms that 100 years of buckfast pedigree book keeping has been done properly. It has nothing to do with whole genome and qualities of worker bees what so ever. Their genes come mostly from other than Italian sources.


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## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> The closeness of Buckfast mitochondrial genome to Italian bees only confirms that 100 years of buckfast pedigree book keeping has been done properly. It has nothing to do with whole genome and qualities of worker bees what so ever. Their genes come mostly from other than Italian sources.


Juhani:

Thank you for your input. You know much more about this topic than I so I will defer widely to you on this topic.

For those like me who need a simple explanation of mitochondrial DNA and its utility in bee genome sequencing, the attached page was helpful personally:

http://www.killowen.com/genetics12.html


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## msl

I suggest that the A. mellifera ligustica natural tracheal mite resistance skewed the matriline, and as with mitochondrial DNA as it doesn't matter if you have a "yellow" mother mated for 200 generations with "dark" drones and your "dark" yourself.. the mitochondrial DNA comes back as "yellow" 

in modern context lets look at Kirk Webster's- Apimondia 2019 presentation 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFD2jD0B67k 
He suggests trachea mites selected for booming spring hives and made his genetics "stronger" 
I suggest, just like Brother Adam, TM selected his stock for the natural (ligustica) Resistance and associated traits of early build up and large population that comes with it .


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## Juhani Lunden

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23802359.2018.1450660?scroll=top&needAccess=true

Quote from this study:
"Due to the large amount of cross-breeding with many different races, the ancestral lineage of the Buckfast bee remains unclear. "

This is something which can be checked from Brother Adams pedigrees, but I have always thought that he did all of his crossings into his main stock in the way that grafts were made form the original stock and the new combination ( after 10 years of crossing and culling) was introduced from drone side.

Study result confirms this.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> ... in modern context lets look at Kirk Webster's- Apimondia 2019 presentation
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFD2jD0B67k


MSL:

That is a great gem of a video- thank you for sharing this. It was a real paradigm shift for me to consider seeing pests as a positive selection mechanism.

It seems his talk might be summed up by his observations of the work of Sir Albert Howard:

"By the end of his time in India, Howard was convinced that insect pests and diseases should never be viewed as enemies or just something to be wantonly destroyed. Instead, they should always be viewed as friends and allies, welcome in small numbers, and only exploding in population when a certain balance of Nature has been violated."

https://kirkwebster.com/some-problems-of-health-and-disease-in-beekeeping-and-agriculture/

Thanks again for sharing the video.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Study result confirms this.


Thank you, Juhani. Your response helped me to better understand your previous post.

If I am following you correctly, you are saying that the study simply helps to confirm that Brother Adam made subsequent cross-breeding introductions to the Buckfast on the drone side as a rule.

By doing so, the mitochondrial genome was retained but the overall new genetic signature now incorporated the new genetics.

Thanks again for your input.

Russ


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## msl

> It was a real paradigm shift for me to consider seeing pests as a positive selection mechanism.


To be clear it was my point to counter kirks position that his bee got stronger from TM selecting for strength and early spring buildup

I see it as simply his genetics shifting to Itailan do to there natural Resistance, and bringing the outher traites that have made them "the bee" to have for centyrys along for the ride. 
At 12min in he points out that varroa slects for a very different kind of hive, small cluster, slow to build up etc 
There are lessons here. 
He bought improved genetics and then weened his operation off treatments over several years, one section at a time as he grafted and did controlled mating to adjest the lines to fit his area and needs. 

His queen rearing operation went TF right of the bat with nonslect stock... all the spliting and brood breaks make this a common occurance.. and while they were TF queens, they would not hold up in a full sized production hive


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> At 12min in he points out that varroa slects for a very different kind of hive, small cluster, slow to build up etc
> There are lessons here.


Good point, MSL. I did pick-up on his commentary regarding the difference in colony dynamics from the tracheal mite to the varroa mite but failed to recognize the obvious correlation is not necessarily causation aspect of these selection pressures.

While my understanding is admittedly limited, it does seem plain that there are various mechanisms at work in the honeybees' defense response to varroa which might ultimately manifest themselves as a different 'best' based on a specific locale and virus profile.

Thanks again for the feedback. I sincerely appreciate it.

Russ


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## GregB

msl said:


> ....
> His queen rearing operation went TF right of the bat with nonslect stock... all the spliting and brood breaks make this a common occurance.. and while they were TF queens, they would not hold up in a full sized production hive


Me too - noticed how it is much easier to be TF in the queen rearing/bee producing business.

Not so easy in the honey producing business.
But - the size of the so called "full sized production hive" is not an axiom either.
As I demonstrated very recently - what the people already are doing in Euro - the full size production hive can be 1/2 or 1/3 of what is commonly understood in the US now.
Just because Dadant said so one hundred years ago - it ain't necessarily so.
As for me, it is not so at all.
Time to swing the pendulum back (the side effect being - the CF methods can be leveraged onto the honey business side too).



JWChesnut;


> Yes, you can outrun TF mortality if you make many young hives..


https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...t-posts-Dec-2019-update&p=1770479#post1770479


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 2.	Local Adaptation


Building upon the discussion of Nature's aim for breeding, Brother Adam addresses the concept of local adaptation from both a theoretical and practical perspective. He observes-

From a theoretical standpoint:

_“It is widely assumed that a bee which has for a long time existed in certain surroundings and completely adapted itself to the prevailing conditions must of necessity be the most suitable bee for that region from the point of view of successful beekeeping. It is true that such a completely adapted bee can manage to survive in the worst of seasons. But Nature never breeds for performance but only to preserve a particular type.” _[p. 12]

_“… Nature never breeds for the perfection of the factors we desire for our commercial needs. Nature’s aim is almost exclusively for the preservation and multiplication of a type. True to this goal of hers, she breeds within certain limits, to bring about the best possible adaptation to prevailing conditions.” _[_Best Strains_ p. 11/12]

_“From its first existence the honeybee has been forced to adjust itself to its immediate environment of perish. The indigenous bee of any particular region reflects in its characteristics the qualities needed for survival in that region.”_ [_Best Strains_, p. 135]

Here he is underscoring the point that Nature is selecting for local survival utilizing the genetic resources at its disposal and that while this local adaptation will ultimately converge to the optimum result available based on the resources at its disposal, this result is likely far from the optimum result that could be attained if more genetic resources were available.

From a practical standpoint:

_“The notion that a bee native to a particular habitat must of necessity be the best for that region is based on fallacy.”_ [p. 93]

_“It was argued with some justice that, in the course of thousands of years, natural selection would with unfailing certainty evolve and mould a bee best adapted to the peculiar requirements of our island climate. But I know from the hard lessons of first-hand experience how utterly fallacious this argument proved.”_ [_Best Strains_, p. 135]

Here Brother Adam is reflecting on his own experience not only with the collapse of the native British Black Bee in response to tracheal mites but also to the incredible success he had with selected cross-breeding using bees from tropical and subtropical environments in regards to subsequent overwintering success (as one of many examples).

Yet I think that Brother Adam had a keen sense of the interplay between genetics and the environment itself in creating the observable traits of honeybees when he noted that, _“Although the essential characteristics of any race do not change as regards their genetic makeup by being placed in a different environment, yet a change of environment does transiently affect the development and moulding of the characteristics of a race.”_ [p. 94]


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> .......
> Here Brother Adam is reflecting on his own experience not only with the collapse of the native British Black Bee in response to tracheal mites but also to the incredible success he had with selected cross-breeding using bees from tropical and subtropical environments in regards to subsequent overwintering success (as one of many examples).
> .....


Well, the local adaptions have to do with the locally persistent factors (those that persisted for long enough).

But local adaptions are irrelevant (initially) with regard to the newly imported factor (a mite).
Once the newly imported factor becomes one of the "locally persistent factors" - the local bee will become adapted to it.

So, unsure what was expected of the native British Black bee - when exposed to a brand new pest.
It is only normal for a die-off to occur.
Then it is normal for a rebound to occur (in time) for as long as the species is resilient enough - which it is (the darn bees are very resilient and adaptable, on the species level).

I don't get the Brother Adams' logic.

PS: well, I can only understand his logic with this qualifier - "the change must occur quickly enough FOR ME, for my time frame" - that I can understand from the personal point (you want to see your work results) - not necessarily the best results, but rather quick results.


----------



## msl

> “The notion that a bee native to a particular habitat must of necessity be the best for that region is based on fallacy.” [p. 93]


While that is is true of a natural population, In managed bees local stock is usually better.. (If such stock exzests, its questionable if it does in many parts of the US do to constant import of packages/nus to replace losses do to little propagation of the stock that lives) 
To that end The Pan-European Genotype-Environment-Interactions Experiment https://coloss.org/accomplishments/the-gei-experiment/
@greg, take note that the local adaption was not irrelevant to mite in this case 



> Here he is underscoring the point that Nature is selecting for local survival utilizing the genetic resources at its disposal and that while this local adaptation will ultimately converge to the optimum result available based on the resources at its disposal, this result is likely far from the optimum result that could be attained if more genetic resources were available.


"Developed by the hand of man" *snip* "you have to be ruthless" Brother Adam on selection, The monk and the honey bee https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Zx1CdWctt_3Bfdf6rPQg20MeW8SRN-R

You have hit on the truth of bee genetics
Nature is not going to reliably select for us and in many cases the local bees in our area may not have the genetic tool kit for best results.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> PS: well, I can only understand his logic with this qualifier - "the change must occur quickly enough FOR ME, for my time frame" - that I can understand from the personal point (you want to see your work results) - not necessarily the best results, but rather quick results.


GregV:

From my very humble perspective I think you hit the nail on the head. Brother Adam says as much near the end of the 5th video that MSL posted above when speaking about a particular genetic strain and attendant trait they hoped to exploit for the purposes of improving the overwintering ability of the Buckfast.

Ultimately it comes down to what our objectives are (including timing) which should guide our decisions.

For Brother Adam it was, 'more honey, less work' over a human lifetime.


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> Nature is not going to reliably select for us and in many cases the local bees in our area may not have the genetic tool kit for best results.


Great post, MSL. I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to watch the 'Monk and the Honeybee' videos- very enjoyable and insightful. 

The thing that intrigues me about local genetics is that while they may not be adequate to suit our purposes, the opposite might also be true and one can't really know with certainty either way until it is put to the 'acid test'.

The other thing that I appreciate is that the US is in many ways uniquely suited to see some of the various colony-level responses to varroa express themselves given the vast breadth of genetic material here, our wide geographic and climate differences and the freedom to experiment. I for one am excited for what the future might hold for resistant stocks.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 3.	Vitality


Brother Adam flatly observes that, _“Lack of vitality lies at the root of nearly all our problems of beekeeping.”_ [p. 44]

From this thesis he frequently speaks of the concept of vitality without ever explicitly defining the term (that I can find). He does however allude to what he has in view when he notes, _“We speak about longevity by it would be more accurate to call what we are concerned with, vitality.”_ [p. 59]

That said, he describes this concept not only with words like _Longevity_ but also with the terms _Endurance_, _Stamina_ and _Hardiness_ such that one might assume he is using the word 'vitality' generally as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as:

1. _The state of being strong and active; energy._
2. _The power giving continuance of life, present in all living things._

Brother Adam makes three (3) main points concerning vitality, namely:

1. Unmanaged (i.e. feral) stock tends to exhibit the most vitality- 

_ “It is always the creature of the wild, be it animal of plant, which is the strongest of its kind, and from the point of view of practical economics not necessarily the most productive.”_ [p. 45]

Here we again see him returning to this idea that Nature breeds for survival (describing it as being, _“… gifted with the primitive exuberance of energy and vitality.” _[p. 191]) and thus tends to award genetic combinations which exhibit high vitality- but not necessarily high surplus honey stores nor other traits we might find beneficial for our own purposes.

2. Homozygosity tends toward reduced vitality-

_“… a high degree of racial purity nearly always entails a fundamental loss of vitality.”_ [p. 31]

Here Brother Adam is describing the concept of 'inbreeding depression' as contrasted by heterosis or 'hybrid vigor':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding_depression
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

3. Loss of vitality represents the limiting factor regarding the use of inbreeding for the purpose of fixing specific traits-

_“The loss of vitality, resulting from close inbreeding, determines the bounds to pure breeding and in the long run we cannot ignore Nature’s clear guidelines with impunity.” _[p. 81]

Related to Item (2), Brother Adam is building the case that successful long-term honeybee breeding must include provisions for the careful but regular introduction of new genetic material. For Brother Adam, this meant a relentless pursuit of new isolated genetic strains and a continual evaluation of new genetic crosses for potential introduction into the genetic pedigree of the Buckfast bee.


----------



## gww

From memory that might be wrong, I thought he also looked hard at which bees flew in the coldest weather. Course, I don't really trust my memory.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> From memory that might be wrong, I thought he also looked hard at which bees flew in the coldest weather. Course, I don't really trust my memory.
> Cheers
> gww


I think you are right, GWW, but I think he had a rather nuanced approach to this. I've attached the evaluation rubric that Brother Adam used when comparing stock versus the reference Buckfast.

In the matrix, one of the secondary evaluation parameters is 'Hardiness', which he defines as, _"resistance to weather"_.

He goes on to say that, _"...any bee that quickly gets chilled when collecting water or pollen on sunny but cool spring days cannot be described as hardy."_

And tempers this statement by observing, _"Any activity in inclement weather brings about a loss of energy in bees to no good purpose whatever..."_

So I would understand this to mean that it is all related to the foragers ability to make appropriate decisions which take fullest advantage of beneficial foraging opportunities.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Brother Adam flatly observes that, _“Lack of vitality lies at the root of nearly all our problems of beekeeping.”_ [p. 44]
> 
> From this thesis he frequently speaks of the concept of vitality without ever explicitly defining the term (that I can find). He does however allude to what he has in view when he notes, _“We speak about longevity by it would be more accurate to call what we are concerned with, vitality.”_ [p. 59]
> 
> That said, he describes this concept not only with words like _Longevity_ but also with the terms _Endurance_, _Stamina_ and _Hardiness_ such that one might assume he is using the word 'vitality' generally as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as:
> 
> 1. _The state of being strong and active; energy._
> 2. _The power giving continuance of life, present in all living things._
> 
> Brother Adam makes three (3) main points concerning vitality, namely:
> 
> 1. Unmanaged (i.e. feral) stock tends to exhibit the most vitality-
> 
> _ “It is always the creature of the wild, be it animal of plant, which is the strongest of its kind, and from the point of view of practical economics not necessarily the most productive.”_ [p. 45]
> 
> Here we again see him returning to this idea that Nature breeds for survival (describing it as being, _“… gifted with the primitive exuberance of energy and vitality.” _[p. 191]) and thus tends to award genetic combinations which exhibit high vitality- but not necessarily high surplus honey stores nor other traits we might find beneficial for our own purposes.
> 
> 2. Homozygosity tends toward reduced vitality-
> 
> _“… a high degree of racial purity nearly always entails a fundamental loss of vitality.”_ [p. 31]
> 
> Here Brother Adam is describing the concept of 'inbreeding depression' as contrasted by heterosis or 'hybrid vigor':
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding_depression
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis
> 
> 3. Loss of vitality represents the limiting factor regarding the use of inbreeding for the purpose of fixing specific traits-
> 
> _“The loss of vitality, resulting from close inbreeding, determines the bounds to pure breeding and in the long run we cannot ignore Nature’s clear guidelines with impunity.” _[p. 81]
> 
> Related to Item (2), Brother Adam is building the case that successful long-term honeybee breeding must include provisions for the careful but regular introduction of new genetic material. For Brother Adam, this meant a relentless pursuit of new isolated genetic strains and a continual evaluation of new genetic crosses for potential introduction into the genetic pedigree of the Buckfast bee.


Russ I am not trying to rain on your parade but in the case of Honey bees, you have several issues that make most of this discussion Academic for almost every one here.
first if the queen has 12-30 baby daddies then the actual egg /larvae selected for the Queen rearing could be 1 of 5-15 different crosses, assuming at least some of the baby daddies were "brothers" I. E. from the same Queen (Grandma) on the drone side. 
Also the raised Queen would also "open" mate and have several or many Lines in her offspring. 

I do not control which Drones are in the air in a several mile circle of my, soon to be mated queens, So it somewhat happens,, and we then evaluate.
IF I select the egg/larvae and do insemination. Then IMO you have the non fittest mating with the non fittest, easily leading to the "vigor" we are describing here.
Most of the Queens in the US are open mated, most of those that are not,, are in breeding programs or experimental.

Seeley successfully mated Queen several miles from the drone source.

So back to the issue at hand. If there are several lines in a hive in the winter and 1 or 2 lines need to, or want to fly, does that mean the other lines present,, likely more/a higher percentage are unfit? With open mating one may have line that winters well and lines that groom and lines that cell build well, Some of those could be "winter flyers" In the grand scheme of things one would need to separately evaluate each line on its own merits. Then pull Larvae from the "good" lines for queen rearing. Most of the genitic testing I am aware of, is "destructive" Squish and then stuff the mush into a gas chromatography unit. evaluating the live mated queen as, first, a member of what line? , then producing members of which of several lines? based on the mating, is not in the scope of most of We Beeks, to do ,,and for some of us wrapping our minds around all the permutations and the meaning of each would take way to many cycles. I also think it could be dangerous to blame what 1 or 2 lines do in the winter on the whole Hive, so labeling the hive bad genes because 1 line fly's in the winter. if 12 of the 13 lines do not fly maybe it is an ok queen after all. Or maybe they were the water carriers and it is on the beekeeper they are flying, hive is too dry /ventilated. 
Don't get me wrong it is interesting to ponder and even debate. The big "however" is what can an average member of Beesource do about it? there are only a few people I can think of that have control of their drone space, either by the hive count and area covered or by the remoteness of their operation. At some level even they need to bring in stock once and a while to prevent inbreeding. So the long term outcome of firm control is poor or watered down stock. Nature had originally had it fittest mating with the fittest and local, I.E. how far will a queen fly to mate? I think Seeley had poor success out past 18-20 miles, fairly good 12 or less. Since all of the US bees were "shipped in" the US has a fairly wide pool of Genetics. Hopefully this helps us in the end.
Merry Christmas
GG


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Related to Item (2), Brother Adam is building the case that successful long-term honeybee breeding must include provisions for the careful but *regular* introduction of new genetic material. For Brother Adam, this meant a relentless pursuit of new isolated genetic strains and a continual evaluation of new genetic crosses for potential introduction into the genetic pedigree of the Buckfast bee.


I´m very pleased that you present the work of Brother Adam in such detail. I think there must be living a small teacher inside you, just like me.  

When reading your text I stopped in the word REGULAR. 

It is important to understand, that today Buckfast, the main stock, is like any other race in the sense of purity and homogeneity. This is easily manifested by taking grafts of the best European Buckfast strains and comparing the results with grafts of any "pure" Italian bees. I would bet my money on that the offspring of a pure Buckfast breeder is more even in performance (and color to that matter) than the offspring of that selected Italian breeder. 

The REGULAR introduction of new genetic material is not made in order to maintain Buckfast strain. That is unnecessary, because the strain is stable, and outperforming any other bee strain. And I´m now not talking about what you might have free mated in USA, but the bees of the best breeders in Europe, decades of insemination only. 

The introduction of new genetic material is done only if some new valuable trait is discovered somewhere. This is today a very rare incident, and hasn´t been done for ages. There was some work with Iranian bees in the 1990´s but not sure if that lead to anywhere. 

Crossings are made, if something new valuable quality is found, but the result of these crossings live separate life from the main stock. In Brother Adams time the process lasted for a decade, crossing back and forth, evaluating and even culling by colour at one point. And when he was satisfied then dawned the great day when this new work was incorporated into the main stock by using it as a drone line at Dartmore. Sometimes years of work was done for nothing, as in the case of Finnish black bees. He discarded all Buckfast x Finnish Black bee crossings. None of them filled his requirements. He judged that the propensity to swarm and bad temper in these crossings was a too big risk for his main Buckfast stock.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Russ I am not trying to rain on your parade but in the case of Honey bees, you have several issues that make most of this discussion Academic for almost every one here.


Gray Goose:

Thank you for your detailed and well-thought-out approach. For what it is worth, I share your sentiment that most of this is strictly academic for most of us mere mortals, but it is cold outside and there is not much to do in the beeyard so I thought it might make for some good winter fodder.

I think you and I might be driving at the same thing as I posted the following at the outset of this effort:



Litsinger said:


> So I am left to conclude that those of us who live in areas with a wide and ever-changing genetic background really only have two options:
> 
> 1. Utilize a strict and consistent system of closed-mating (either by breeding isolation or by frequent mated queen introductions) to maintain a predictable set of traits.
> 
> 2. Assume the benefits, liabilities and unpredictability of the local genetic population.
> 
> This is obviously an oversimplification but does possibly help explain why specific traits (i.e. disease resistance) might be difficult to sustain in open-mated populations or why feral survival might be expressed in such wide and disparate modes in different areas, different years and different colonies.


For me personally, this means first evaluating the local genetics to see if they collectively have what it takes (i.e. unfettered open mating) and no specific selection criteria (i.e. survival is the only selection mechanism). Should this prove untenable, it is insightful to me to consider the relatively rigid genetic control one must apply in order to sustain specific traits (particularly the recessive ones) in perpetuity.

That said, I might be missing the forest for the trees, so please feel welcome to challenge my thinking on this.

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> The REGULAR introduction of new genetic material is not made in order to maintain Buckfast strain. That is unnecessary, because the strain is stable, and outperforming any other bee strain. And I´m now not talking about what you might have free mated in USA, but the bees of the best breeders in Europe, decades of insemination only.
> 
> ...
> 
> Crossings are made, if something new valuable quality is found, but the result of these crossings live separate life from the main stock. In Brother Adams time the process lasted for a decade, crossing back and forth, evaluating and even culling by colour at one point. And when he was satisfied then dawned the great day when this new work was incorporated into the main stock by using it as a drone line at Dartmore. Sometimes years of work was done for nothing, as in the case of Finnish black bees. He discarded all Buckfast x Finnish Black bee crossings. None of them filled his requirements. He judged that the propensity to swarm and bad temper in these crossings was a too big risk for his main Buckfast stock.


Juhani:

First off- thank you for your kind words. I am honored that someone with your level of experience and expertise would take the time to read these posts. I imagine you have forgotten more about Brother Adam's work than I have learned thus far.

Secondly- thank you for being willing to challenge my understandings of his philosophies and methods. It is helpful to read and consider your feedback and understand the subject more deeply.

Finally- possibly the word 'regular' might be more appropriate if I better defined what I meant by new genetic material. Please feel welcome to steer me in the right direction if I veer off target.

If we assume that an average hobby beekeeper purchased 3 - 5 mated Buckfast queens and then subsequently began instrumentally inseminating grafted queens from his base Buckfast lines with drones from the other Buckfast colonies in his/her yard, it would certainly maintain genetic integrity but would quickly lead to inbreeding depression correct?

Brother Adam seems to be making this case when he writes that, _“Experience has shown that without this care (avoiding inbreeding) even the most productive strains of bees can be ruined in a few generations.”_

So in this case, the best approach would be a 'regular' introduction of new Buckfast material from outside sources to maintain the vigor in the apiary as a whole?

I imagine that at some point one could develop enough lines with enough diversity that the frequency of needing 'new' Buckfast material would be reduced but that on a practical level with strictly closed-mating it is necessary to bring outside stock in periodically to maintain vigor?

Or asked another way- was Brother Adam able to develop enough inherent genetic diversity in his lines such that he could have maintained the vigor of his lines in perpetuity without any further outside genetic resources being added?

What I envision him doing is continually bringing in new representations of the isolated genetic strains and recreating the proven crosses as new Buckfast lines to introduce into the system as a tool to combat inbreeding... but I might be completely off-base.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Juhani:
> 
> First off- thank you for your kind words. I am honored that someone with your level of experience and expertise would take the time to read these posts. I imagine you have forgotten more about Brother Adam's work than I have learned thus far.
> 
> Secondly- thank you for being willing to challenge my understandings of his philosophies and methods. It is helpful to read and consider your feedback and understand the subject more deeply.
> 
> Finally- possibly the word 'regular' might be more appropriate if I better defined what I meant by new genetic material. Please feel welcome to steer me in the right direction if I veer off target.
> 
> If we assume that an average hobby beekeeper purchased 3 - 5 mated Buckfast queens and then subsequently began instrumentally inseminating grafted queens from his base Buckfast lines with drones from the other Buckfast colonies in his/her yard, it would certainly maintain genetic integrity but would quickly lead to inbreeding depression correct?
> 
> Brother Adam seems to be making this case when he writes that, _“Experience has shown that without this care (avoiding inbreeding) even the most productive strains of bees can be ruined in a few generations.”_
> 
> So in this case, the best approach would be a 'regular' introduction of new Buckfast material from outside sources to maintain the vigor in the apiary as a whole?
> 
> I imagine that at some point one could develop enough lines with enough diversity that the frequency of needing 'new' Buckfast material would be reduced but that on a practical level with strictly closed-mating it is necessary to bring outside stock in periodically to maintain vigor?
> 
> Or asked another way- was Brother Adam able to develop enough inherent genetic diversity in his lines such that he could have maintained the vigor of his lines in perpetuity without any further outside genetic resources being added?
> 
> What I envision him doing is continually bringing in new representations of the isolated genetic strains and recreating the proven crosses as new Buckfast lines to introduce into the system as a tool to combat inbreeding... but I might be completely off-base.


Inbreeding is inevitable in closed population breeding (I remember reading some calculations about how big a population and how many breeder queens one must have to maintain sex alleles for 20 years, couple hundred breeders ?)

The point of my previous post was just to remind readers of one most common misunderstanding about Buckfast:

As silly as it sounds, the most common fake news about Buckfast bees is that they are hybrids which have to be created again and again with continuous crossings. And sometimes this "news" tells further that this work has to be done in Buckfast monestry. 

Makes me nuts.

Buckfast does not differ in this respective from any other race, they all end up in inbreeding. 

Brother Adam lived in an era, when new isolated populations were to be found in remote places around Europe, Middle East and Africa. That time is gone forever. The main goal of Brother Adams various trips and new crossings was not avoiding inbreeding, but to develop Buckfast further. It helped to avoid inbreeding, too. But the goal of his search for new unknown, isolated bee races and varieties was to get new strains in his stock to make a perfect honeybee. 

Diversity must be maintained, but today it cannot be based on totally new material. In this respective Buckfast breeding today is in the same position as all other races. 

Of cource there might be some isolated bees to be found somewhere, but Buckfast breeding in not dependent on these findings, nor is avoiding inbreeding. But one must be careful. Especially in Europe there is a situation where just a handfull of major breeders dominate. Their work is so highly evaluated, that almost all other smaller breeders want to use their material. This leads to a situation when inbreeding effects, or "softness" as some phrase it, lurks around the corner.


----------



## Hunajavelho

Actually the new Buckfast material that Br.Adam has had very little to do with is starting to dominate.
If we look at the main island mating station Baltrum used by Buckfast breeders in central Europe, we see that the drone lines are actually fairly young.

Here is the link of Baltrum drone lines, going back to 2001.
http://perso.unamur.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/shr_TR_bal.html

The material used at Baltrum is mostly a result of the breeding work of Thomas Rueppel and Horst Preissl & Johannes Neuburger. The stock is mostly from south african origin, once in ten years or so an old Buckfast line is used. Baltrum is mainly used to boost old stable lines, to get more vitality back in the old lines and to improve in other ways. Rueppel has written about this, of how to keep vitality in an old line. He is a disciple of Br. Adam.

If one looks trough the German Buckfast breeders and the pedigree of the queens most of the queens are at some point mated at Baltrum. 

Different mating stations are used for more conservative matings.


Then there are those working with almost solely old Buckfast like Paul Jungels and Klaus (and father Franz) Fehrenbach.


----------



## Gray Goose

Hunajavelho said:


> Actually the new Buckfast material that Br.Adam has had very little to do with is starting to dominate.
> If we look at the main island mating station Baltrum used by Buckfast breeders in central Europe, we see that the drone lines are actually fairly young.
> 
> Here is the link of Baltrum drone lines, going back to 2001.
> http://perso.unamur.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/shr_TR_bal.html
> 
> The material used at Baltrum is mostly a result of the breeding work of Thomas Rueppel and Horst Preissl & Johannes Neuburger. The stock is mostly from south african origin, once in ten years or so an old Buckfast line is used. Baltrum is mainly used to boost old stable lines, to get more vitality back in the old lines and to improve in other ways. Rueppel has written about this, of how to keep vitality in an old line. He is a disciple of Br. Adam.
> 
> If one looks trough the German Buckfast breeders and the pedigree of the queens most of the queens are at some point mated at Baltrum.
> 
> Different mating stations are used for more conservative matings.
> 
> 
> Then there are those working with almost solely old Buckfast like Paul Jungels and Klaus (and father Franz) Fehrenbach.


I was going to disagree but you somewhat counteradicted your self .

You state "Actually the new Buckfast material that Br.Adam has had very little to do with is starting to dominate."

Then
"Rueppel has written about this, of how to keep vitality in an old line. He is a disciple of Br. Adam."

I f Rueppell is a disciple of brother Adam, then I would think Br Adam has everything to do with it.

So IMO the breed "Buckfast" is not the "Man" Br Adam" it is the Ideas and understanding and processes of Br Adam, and continues to this day .
The tool he picked "Baltrum" is Neither "Buckfast" or "Non Buckfast" How the Baltrum was applied and to what Line is the "buckfast" of it.

GG


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## Juhani Lunden

"B153(TR) is a queen of Thomas Rueppel (DE) mated in 2017, descendant G13 of Takab93aR. She is a Buckfast who comes from a line of pure meda (Iran)-combination well established."

This breeder has mother *originating from a Meda combination.* We earlier discussed about the study of the mitochondria dna origin of buckfast. My rule of incorporating all new stuff from fathers side does not hold here. Maybe in that study it was just a lucky coincident that buckfast mitochondria dna was close to Italian. 

He has quite interesting origins. This is the first breeder in his listing.

The origins of this breeder:
B: buckfast
I:	meda (Iranian)
*MG:	Margret's hive No 5
NO:	N°62*

Maybe Hunajavelho knows better what they are. I have no idea :s


----------



## Juhani Lunden

I looked at couple pedigrees of Paul Jungels breeders. At least the first ones seemed to be made in that old way: new stuff in from fathers side, mother line is old stuff.

" B154(PJ) is a queen of Paul Jungels (LU) mated in 2017, descendant G20 of AthosSt80R. She is a “Old Buckfast” who comes from a long strain of pure Athos Stavronikita-combination. "



P.S. Some JL genes there too


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## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> P.S. Some JL genes there too ...


I imagine this has to be gratifying. Certainly speaks well of your reputation as a breeder.


----------



## msl

> As silly as it sounds, the most common fake news about Buckfast bees is that they are hybrids which have to be created again and again with continuous crossings


maybe I am missing something, but the buck fast program seemed to be to me..that they were Out crossing for hybread vigor while trying to keep core traits. 

am I reading the pedagree right, that B154(PJ) was II with drones form here sisters , then one of her daughters 158 was II with drones form her sisters as well?


----------



## Gray Goose

msl said:


> maybe I am missing something, but the buck fast program seemed to be to me..that they were Out crossing for hybread vigor while trying to keep core traits.
> 
> am I reading the pedagree right, that B154(PJ) was II with drones form here sisters , then one of her daughters 158 was II with drones form her sisters as well?


I think Mate with "INS" insemination from drones OF X sister colonies. Not her sister colonies. So the the drones are cousins. but not cousins of the Queen.
GG


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## Litsinger

As previously noted, I have been taking 48 hour mite drops at each change of season to see if any meaningful trends might emerge within or between colonies and/or years.

Today I completed the Winter counts and I incorporated them into a spreadsheet with the previous totals for future use and evaluation.

Based on the limited sample size, I will wait a couple of weeks before collecting mites for view with the microscope.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Buckfast does not differ in this respective from any other race, they all end up in inbreeding.
> 
> ...
> 
> This leads to a situation when inbreeding effects, or "softness" as some phrase it, lurks around the corner.





Hunajavelho said:


> The material used at Baltrum is mostly a result of the breeding work of Thomas Rueppel and Horst Preissl & Johannes Neuburger. The stock is mostly from south african origin, once in ten years or so an old Buckfast line is used. Baltrum is mainly used to boost old stable lines, to get more vitality back in the old lines and to improve in other ways. Rueppel has written about this, of how to keep vitality in an old line. He is a disciple of Br. Adam.


Juhani and Hunajavelho:

Thank you both for the insightful replies concerning the continued propagation of the Buckfast line. It is truly a fascinating and remarkable achievement, and I expect that most Buckfast breeders are rather sober-minded as they consider being the stewards of Brother Adam's legacy.

This topic of inbreeding depression is where we are headed next, and do either of you know of any specific protocols that Brother Adam and/or his proteges have developed to avoid it? 

I also noted that Mr. Thomas Rueppel appears to have utilized some of Erik Österlund's stock as well?

http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_TR_2006.html

Thank you both for your helpful input.

Russ


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> I also noted that Mr. Thomas Rueppel appears to have utilized some of Erik Österlund's stock as well?
> 
> http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_TR_2006.html



Can you point out more precisely which breeder queen?


----------



## Hunajavelho

Gray Goose said:


> I was going to disagree but you somewhat counteradicted your self .
> 
> You state "Actually the new Buckfast material that Br.Adam has had very little to do with is starting to dominate."
> 
> Then
> "Rueppel has written about this, of how to keep vitality in an old line. He is a disciple of Br. Adam."
> 
> I f Rueppell is a disciple of brother Adam, then I would think Br Adam has everything to do with it.
> 
> So IMO the breed "Buckfast" is not the "Man" Br Adam" it is the Ideas and understanding and processes of Br Adam, and continues to this day .
> The tool he picked "Baltrum" is Neither "Buckfast" or "Non Buckfast" How the Baltrum was applied and to what Line is the "buckfast" of it.
> 
> GG


Yes Br. Adam has everything to do with it but has not been involved in the breeding with these new lines, no or very little has genetics of old buckfast lines been added to these new lines.

EDIT
PS. If you google Thomas Rueppel you will find a picture with him and Br. Adam, some 30 years ago...


----------



## Hunajavelho

Juhani Lunden said:


> View attachment 52913
> 
> 
> He has quite interesting origins. This is the first breeder in his listing.
> 
> The origins of this breeder:
> B: buckfast
> I:	meda (Iranian)
> *MG:	Margret's hive No 5
> NO:	N°62*
> 
> Maybe Hunajavelho knows better what they are. I have no idea :s


Both the original Margret queen and the N°62 original queen (mountain in near Cape town) are of south african unknown origin, but they assume it is mostly a.m.capensis, but surely there might be a.m.scutellata genes as well and god knows what else. Paul Jungels also uses the N°62 line and it has been somewhat good with fighting varroa. The Margret line is so wanted because it recovers very well after the autumn treatment and they have had good results when VSH has been tested and stands true to every other buckfast criteria, according to the germans.

Rueppel's queens are tested in big commersial apiaries by beekeepers like Ivan Curic, who runs the apiaries organically and has about 2000 hives. The drone mother is usually selected out of 100 sister queens.


----------



## Gray Goose

Hunajavelho said:


> Both the original Margret queen and the N°62 original queen (mountain in near Cape town) are of south african unknown origin, but they assume it is mostly a.m.capensis, but surely there might be a.m.scutellata genes as well and god knows what else. Paul Jungels also uses the N°62 line and it has been somewhat good with fighting varroa. The Margret line is so wanted because it recovers very well after the autumn treatment and they have had good results when VSH has been tested and stands true to every other buckfast criteria, according to the germans.
> 
> Rueppel's queens are tested in big commersial apiaries by beekeepers like Ivan Curic, who runs the apiaries organically and has about 2000 hives. The drone mother is usually selected out of 100 sister queens.


Nice history. Neat stuff, I hope they continue to "add vigor" in the way Br Adam has enlightened them to do. Hopefully they hand off the line to more "disciples" the ability to "Test" in 2000 hive Operations can offer good insight and allow a bring back in the unlikely event of a fire or something on the island. Anyone on this forum have/try the Buckfast in the northern areas of the US, or Canada? Can you offer how they work for your operation?
I did at one time look into Queens from Ontario, the paper work and delays at the boarder were a bit of a turn off. Doable but with some delays and some extra effort. The effort is not a big deal, but I am not into keeping queens in a cages any longer than necessary. 
GG


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Hunajavelho said:


> but they assume it is mostly a.m.capensis, but surely there might be a.m.scutellata genes as well and god knows what else. Paul Jungels also uses the N°62 line and it has been somewhat good with fighting varroa. The Margret line is so wanted because it recovers very well after the autumn treatment


Has the capensis ability to thelytoky ever been discussed when using these lines? I have understood that it is somewhat of a nuisance, the possibility to take over other hives. 

recovery after treatment?? what do you mean by that?


----------



## Hunajavelho

Juhani Lunden said:


> Has the capensis ability to thelytoky ever been discussed when using these lines? I have understood that it is somewhat of a nuisance, the possibility to take over other hives.
> 
> recovery after treatment?? what do you mean by that?


I have not found any information regarding it,
I guess it is not a problem or is it eliminated by selection in the first crosses... I do not know...

By recovery, I mean that, they write that the colonies are strong after they have been treated and remain strong through the following year and tthat the colonies seem to suffer very little from varroa related viruses. 

An interesting detail about the Takab93 Iranian line (a.m.meda) is according to Rueppel was very hard to get strong hives into winter as they in the pure form and the first crosses would stop brood rearing as early as end of july in Germany. This is a trait that they have wanted to improve in the buckfast bees and been able to keep in this line, now they stop brood rearing in september wich helps them to do the varroa treatment early. The trait is also very heritable so that is why the Iranian line is used as drone lines on many mating stations at the moment. Both Jungels and Rueppel struggled with temper and nervousness in the beginning.


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## Juhani Lunden

msl said:


> maybe I am missing something, but the buck fast program seemed to be to me..that they were Out crossing for hybread vigor while trying to keep core traits.
> 
> am I reading the pedagree right, that B154(PJ) was II with drones form here sisters , then one of her daughters 158 was II with drones form her sisters as well?


Crossing new material is just for advanced breeders. Normal beekeepers use buckfast bees as any other race. Crossings are done to get some new trait into buckfast race, the new F1 needs to be stabilized for a decade or so. Crossing new material causes huge variation and huge troubles and extra work to the breeder, swarming, angryness etc. It is most certainly not made to get hybrid vigor. 

B154 is the breeder of that year
B158 is her mother
B120 is the mother of the queens of the drone hives ( in this case 8 hives, headed by sister queens, insemination done year 2017) 

B120 has been used for breeding and maybe some 30 daughters was raised. From these 30 hives 8 outstanding hives were selected to serve as dronehives.


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## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Can you point out more precisely which breeder queen?


Juhani:

I have not been avoiding your question, but I am afraid I am a bit out of my depth in evaluating pedigrees.

It appears that the last year that Thomas Rueppel utilized Eglon stock was 2006:

http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_TR_2006.html

If I read this properly, it appears there is Eglon stock in the pedigree of B106(TR):

http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/reines/B106(TR).05.html


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## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Crossing new material is just for advanced breeders. Normal beekeepers use buckfast bees as any other race. Crossings are done to get some new trait into buckfast race, the new F1 needs to be stabilized for a decade or so. Crossing new material causes huge variation and huge troubles and extra work to the breeder, swarming, angryness etc. It is most certainly not made to get hybrid vigor.


Juhani:

Thank you for your reply. While researching Mr. Erik Österlund's involvement with the Buckfast breeding program, I came across this presentation he gave to the 1999 Apimondia. In it he said, _"When we stop using new races in a Buckfast type of breeding it is even still more important then before to avoid close inbreeding. Close inbreeding is our biggest enemy destroying what we have achieved. With inbreeding you loose a lot of the genetic varieties, and further progress becomes less possible and less probable. But in rare instances, especially when you just have crossed two very different strains or races, it can be a tool to help you get more predictable results in the following generations."_

It is an excellent read, and addresses many of the concepts we have been discussing, particularly the role of 'Mother' and 'Father' colonies in a close-mated paradigm:

http://www.pedigreeapis.org/biblio/artcl/EO99princBAen.html


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## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Juhani:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears that the last year that Thomas Rueppel utilized Eglon stock was 2006:
> 
> 
> If I read this properly, it appears there is Eglon stock in the pedigree of B106(TR)




He is using monticola Elgon, but monticola is not only Erik Österlund. There are other breeders using it too. 

I am curious to find the exact breeder originating from Erik Österlund. Is Elgon in the pedigree referring to the place Mount Elgon, or to the Trademark of Erik Österlund and his friends?? 

The list of breeders (beekeepers) in down of the page on the left side of each breeder queen. 
E106 list is E: 
Eugen Neuhauser (A)
PN: Horst Preissl & Johannes Neuburger (A)
TR: Thomas Rueppel (D)


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> I am curious to find the exact breeder originating from Erik Österlund.


Juhani:

I cannot be sure, but I think we are getting closer. The lineage of B106(TR) has OL(PN) which is described as a first generation descendant of 'Old Lady'- described as an, _"import Afrique du Sud Old Lady TR personal comm - pure original Old Lady..."_

https://www.index-mellifera.org/queen/AT-PN-OL-0001-1994/

It may be coincidental, but Erik Österlund and his team nicknamed their Landrover 'Old Lady' when looking for Monticola:

http://www.pedigreeapis.org/biblio/artcl/EOABJ91en.html


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## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Juhani:
> 
> I cannot be sure, but I think we are getting closer. The lineage of B106(TR) has OL(PN)


The initials, here TR= Thomas Rueppel and PN= Preissel and Neuburger, on the breeder queens "name" is a sign that they have raised and evaluated that particular queen. The owner of that hive. (I don´t know of any breeder who uses employes to make queen evaluations.)


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## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> The initials, here TR= Thomas Rueppel and PN= Preissel and Neuburger, on the breeder queens "name" is a sign that they have raised and evaluated that particular queen. The owner of that hive. (I don´t know of any breeder who uses employes to make queen evaluations.)


Thank you, Juhani. You are no doubt correct.

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 4.	Inbreeding


Brother Adam describes inbreeding as, _“…the Achilles heel of the honeybee.”_ [p. 53]

Thus he observes that, _“… where the honeybee is concerned Nature uses every possible means of preventing inbreeding.”_ [p. 22]

He notes, _“The term ‘Inbreeding’ refers to matings of close relatives within the limits of the breeding line, or in a wider sense within a strain or ecotype.”_ [p. 54]

So why does Nature use such extraordinary measures to avoid inbreeding?

Brother Adam explains, _“Inbreeding leads to an intensification of small mutations and unavoidably to loss of vigor.”_ [p. 44] 

He goes on to note, _“As practical experience shows over and over again the most serious result of inbreeding is the progressive loss of stamina.”_ [p. 22]

He further warns, _“Inbreeding… can have a disastrous effect on longevity.”_ [p. 59]

Yet despite these admonitions, inbreeding is routinely (and often successfully) employed in animal husbandry (and more recently in European Honeybees) for the primary purpose of fixing specific traits. 

If for example one considers selection for inherent varroa resistance mechanisms, Mr. Tom Glenn explains it thus, _"Given enough time and in the absence of chemical treatment, European bees would probably become adapted to Varroa by natural selection, as the Asian honeybee has. The goal of the bee breeder is to accelerate this process through artificial selection. This is done by identifying the bees with the desired characteristics and controlling their mating to accumulate these traits in a 'closed population'. Closed population breeding programs have long been used with great success in the breeding of dogs, cattle, and other livestock. It has only been relatively recently that the mating biology, genetics, and techniques in artificial (instrumental) insemination of bees have been worked out so as to make possible, sustainable closed population breeding programs."_

He further notes, _"Genetic consistency and genetic diversity are opposite ends of a spectrum. One necessarily gives up diversity in trade for "fixing" any trait in an individual, a colony, or a population."_

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/breeding.html

However, Brother Adam urges extreme caution with this approach. He notes, _“… where it is deemed necessary to apply intensive inbreeding with the corresponding control of mating, high loss of brood and all the other drawbacks are unavoidable … a confirmation that we can use inbreeding only exceptionally.”_ [p. 48]

Said more directly, in his book 'In Search of the Best Strains of Bees' he warns, _“A progressive loss of vigour, as uniformity increases, precludes any far-reaching or revolutionary improvement in the bee by this mode of approach.”_ [p. 18]

Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year!


----------



## Michael Bush

"We're trying to ensure the failure of modern beekeeping by focusing too much on single traits; by ignoring the elements of Wildness; and by constantly treating the bees. The biggest mistake of all is to continue viewing mites and other "pests" as enemies that must be destroyed, instead of allies and teachers that are trying to show us a path to a better future. The more virulent a parasite is, the more powerful a tool it can be for improving stocks and practice in the future. All the boring and soul-destroying work of counting mites on sticky boards, killing brood with liquid nitrogen, watching bees groom each other, and measuring brood hormone levels---all done in thousands of replications---will someday be seen as a colossal waste of time when we finally learn to let the Varroa mites do these things for us. My own methods of propagating, selecting and breeding bees, worked out through many years of trial and error, are really just an attempt to establish and utilize Horizontal breeding with honeybees---to create a productive system that preserves and enhances the elements of Wildness. My results are not perfect, but they have enabled me to continue making a living from bees without much stress, and have a positive outlook for the future. I have no doubt that many other beekeepers could easily achieve these same results, and then surpass them."--Kirk Webster, What's missing from the current discussion and work related to bees that's preventing us from making good progress.

http://kirkwebster.com/index.php/wh...thats-preventing-us-from-making-good-progress

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeswholebee.htm


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## JWChesnut

User deleted


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## gww

I always liked kirk's wheat example of breeding. You basically let all the wheat out there do its thing all the time and then picked the best seed to plant. I realize the argument of nature breeding to average and allowing bad traits, allows bad traits to put downward pressure on the good traits. However, what a good trait or a bad trait means in one situation could mean something different in a different situation. Seems to me that a middle of the road goal that keeps good and bad around might actually be the safer route in the big picture as nature is not static and who knows what will be needed and when. 

The safest route in my mind (being uneducated) seems to be to bring everything that I get access to into my apiary and then to get what use I can from the bees that survive being in my apiary (with little help from me except maybe to recognize bad drought or such and sugar feeding) and making small effort to increase from the ones I like best. 

Even with small numbers of hives, if they live, this seems safest in my mind. This keeps me from getting to thinking that I am smart enough to muddle through what are important traits and what are not. Let the bees prove what is important to them and then pick the ones that give me closer to what is also important to me from that pool.

I hunted rabbits with my beagle and thought that was a good way with dogs (that need humans to survive) to have been bred but think with bees that can be tame or wild, that more of a wind pollination with lots of traits works better for low input bee keeping bees.
I like keeping up with the other avenues then my current thoughts so I can compare my thoughts and re-evaluate till I myself am no longer around for it to matter to me.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

Michael Bush said:


> The more virulent a parasite is, the more powerful a tool it can be for improving stocks and practice in the future.


Michael:

Merry Christmas- thank you for your detailed and helpful post. I particularly appreciated the assessment parameters you outline in your 'Whole Bee' write-up. I certainly can appreciate that, _"The genetic combinations that lead to success are almost infinitely complex. The combinational analysis of what makes a gentle, productive, healthy bee is beyond our comprehension. But observing success is not beyond our comprehension."_

As you note, _"Look at the big picture of health and good instincts. Not single traits."_ This seems in my very humble view to be a great guiding precept for our selection efforts.

Regarding mite virulence as a selection tool, MSL recently posted a talk that Mr. Kirk Webster gave at this year's Apimondia in which he articulates the same premise:



msl said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFD2jD0B67k


What is difficult for me to reconcile is that well-respected folks like Dr. Samuel Ramsey conclude (per a recent post by LAlldredge) that increased virulence is at least due in part to the fact that there are beekeepers who are not treating and are allowing their colonies to succumb: 



LAlldredge said:


> https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podca...-bees-beekeeping/id1436653043?i=1000440071666


Possibly these two perspectives are simply two sides of the same coin, but it is difficult for me to understand how increased virulence is ultimately a sign of progress.

That said, I have no experience in the realm of bee improvement nor the benefit of years of observing the increasing virulence of varroa mites since their arrival in the US.

Thank you again for your helpful post- I sincerely appreciate you contributing.

Russ


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> The safest route in my mind (being uneducated) seems to be to bring everything that I get access to into my apiary and then to get what use I can from the bees that survive being in my apiary (with little help from me except maybe to recognize bad drought or such and sugar feeding) and making small effort to increase from the ones I like best.
> 
> ...
> 
> I like keeping up with the other avenues then my current thoughts so I can compare my thoughts and re-evaluate till I myself am no longer around for it to matter to me.


GWW:

Merry Christmas! Thank you for the great post.

In many ways I have patterned my current approach on yours based on the success you have had.

While I am ever-prepared for collapse, these precepts seem to have served me well thus far.

Also, I too really enjoy and appreciate reading about different approaches to beekeeping and hope to always have the opportunity to find common ground and maintain a spirit of goodwill and an open mind when listening and talking about something we all enjoy and derive satisfaction from.

I sincerely hope that this year to come is full of good health and abundance for you and your family.

Russ


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## msl

> All the boring and soul-destroying work of counting mites on sticky boards, killing brood with liquid nitrogen, watching bees groom each other, and measuring brood hormone levels---all done in thousands of replications---will someday be seen as a colossal waste of time


too funny, given his search for natural local resistant stock failed him, and his success only changed when he bought bees that had been selected by such measures(USDA Russian).. as he detailed in his 2019 Apimondia speech 
Notably Sam Comfort's speech in Apimondia 2019 says he owns his success (at start, KTBHs in a norther clime)to the same stock (he got to hand pick breeders from Webster). 



> What's missing from the current discussion and work related to bees that's preventing us from making good progress.


Treating for resistance 
selection pressure, grafting, mite counts, knocking down mite bombs and lowering over mite all pressure so that resistant lines and more importantly there drones can prosper.
An unnatural level of drone production means an unnatural level of mite production witch means to do the most good we may need to do a little evil to saturate and propagate, IPM
Economically viable beekeeping 
that means honey and pollination, yes you can make bees, and make queens TF
but can that stock turn a profit to your customers if run as TF ?
that's the rub, reputability of results



> I always liked kirk's wheat example of breeding. You basically let all the wheat out there do its thing all the time and then picked the best seed to plant.


Its not a bad example at all, more or less how swarm beekeeping worked as the small hives gave them a chance to hit reproduction age in summer instead of waiting till spring 
in the wheat example the human only alows "the best" that lived to its reproductive cycle to reproduce. and the poor and advrage are culled 
Every "superior" wheat plant produces 50 seeds to be used next year. So your propagating for the top 2% of your stock ! 
but bees(in big hives) hit thier reproductive cycle in the spring, so to follow the wheat example you need to pick the best of what lived till spring (to reproduction age) and cull the rest.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Brother Adam describes inbreeding as, _“…the Achilles heel of the honeybee.”_ [p. 53]
> 
> Thus he observes that, _“… where the honeybee is concerned Nature uses every possible means of preventing inbreeding.”_ [p. 22]
> 
> He notes, _“The term ‘Inbreeding’ refers to matings of close relatives within the limits of the breeding line, or in a wider sense within a strain or ecotype.”_ [p. 54]
> 
> Brother Adam explains, _“Inbreeding leads to an intensification of small mutations and unavoidably to loss of vigor.”_ [p. 44]
> 
> He goes on to note, _“As practical experience shows over and over again the most serious result of inbreeding is the progressive loss of stamina.”_ [p. 22]
> 
> He further warns, _“Inbreeding… can have a disastrous effect on longevity.”_ [p. 59]
> 
> However, Brother Adam urges extreme caution with this approach. He notes, _“… where it is deemed necessary to apply intensive inbreeding with the corresponding control of mating, high loss of brood and all the other drawbacks are unavoidable … a confirmation that we can use inbreeding only exceptionally.”_ [p. 48]
> 
> Said more directly, in his book 'In Search of the Best Strains of Bees' he warns, _“A progressive loss of vigour, as uniformity increases, precludes any far-reaching or revolutionary improvement in the bee by this mode of approach.”_ [p. 18]
> 
> Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year!



Brother Adam used inbreeding as a tool to fix traits. 


When we look at the many words Brother Adam used to write about the dangers of inbreeding it is good to remember, that in the beginning, buckfast bees were not welcomed by leading scientists and beekeeping associations in his homeland Germany. They supported carnica as the only race in Germany. 

There has been furious fights between pure breeding carnica group and buckfast beekeepers in Germany. 

Carnica is a, successfull, school example of pure breeding. Race breeding was (is?) a red flag to the carnica group. Germany is a tightly populated country, there is no room for angry bees. In the beginning lots of misunderstandings about the buckfast breeding system and its possible effects on pure carnica.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Juhani Lunden said:


> ...that in the beginning, buckfast bees were not welcomed by leading scientists and beekeeping associations in his homeland Germany. They supported carnica as the only race in Germany.
> 
> There has been furious fights between pure breeding carnica group and buckfast beekeepers in Germany.
> 
> Carnica is a, successfull, school example of pure breeding. Race breeding was (is?) a red flag to the carnica group. Germany is a tightly populated country, there is no room for angry bees. In the beginning lots of misunderstandings about the buckfast breeding system and its possible effects on pure carnica.


Still the same situation. "Scientists" (they call themselves this way...) and some popular beekeeping gods of Germany still propagate the Carnica bee. Even worse in Austria: in some states of Austria they banned all other bees than Carnica. All beekeepers, including multiple thousand hive operations are forced to requeen their hives with Carnica queens. By police force.

While the Buckfast bee gains more and more popularity, because it is the better bee. Just is and this speaks for itself. Everyone with own eyes sees that, so with the oldtimer carnica people dying out, there hopefully will be some progress.

The only problem now for the Buckfast is the hunt for the varroa resistant bee and VSH selection. It creates a real narrow bottle neck, only queens from a few breeder (one...) are used in all major Buckfast mating stations. I think, that'll backfire in the near future.

I still enjoy my Elgon (Erik Österlund)+buckfast wild mixture and for me I see some nice varroa hardiness (not resistance).


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## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Brother Adam used inbreeding as a tool to fix traits.
> 
> ...
> 
> Carnica is a, successfull, school example of pure breeding.





BernhardHeuvel said:


> The only problem now for the Buckfast is the hunt for the varroa resistant bee and VSH selection. It creates a real narrow bottle neck, only queens from a few breeder (one...) are used in all major Buckfast mating stations. I think, that'll backfire in the near future.


Juhani and Bernhard:

Thank you both for your input- good information. Upon reading your responses, I looked for specific published information about the current state-of-affairs in Germany regarding Carnica and Buckfast. The only current information I could find was at the following hyperlink:

http://www.apisjovita.de/index.php/en/breeding-and-tips/breeding.html

That said, I did also read a couple other references which were helpful and relevant to the current discussion. In ‘The Monk and the Honey Bees’ (Mr. Paul Jungels memorial to Brother Adam), he states (quoting Brother Adam) that, _Later cross-breeding with the Athos (Macedonian bee) at the end of the 1980’s and a further Anatolian Cross-breed at the start of the 1990’s was “not so much in order to acquire new characteristics as to achieve a further intensification of qualities already attained.”_

http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/obitu/PJbiogr96en.html

Also, pages 407 and 408 of the book 'Bee Genetics and Breeding' (Edited by Thomas E. Rinderer), there is a good discussion of the use of both Line Breeding and Hybrid Breeding in the Carnica and the Buckfast:

https://books.google.com/books?id=MyTgBAAAQBAJ&pg


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Also, pages 407 and 408 of the book 'Bee Genetics and Breeding' (Edited by Thomas E. Rinderer), there is a good discussion of the use of both Line Breeding and Hybrid Breeding in the Carnica and the Buckfast:
> 
> https://books.google.com/books?id=MyTgBAAAQBAJ&pg



:doh:

This thread is getting expensive.

I do have Adams book "In the search of the best bee.." but it is a translation, in Swedish, the only one I could find way back before Amazon. 

Had to order the original to check the quotes...


Now, I do have one book of Laidlaws, but none from Rinderer...


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Now, I do have one book of Laidlaws, but none from Rinderer...


Juhani:

The good news is you can read most of the Rinderer text online at the link above. In particular, the quoted sections are available in the preview.

I sincerely hope that you and your family have a Healthy and Prosperous New Year!

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 5.	Man’s Aim in Breeding


As regards bee breeding, Brother Adam was greatly influenced by the work of German zoologist Ludwig Armbruster. In fact, he dedicates his ‘Breeding the Honeybee’ to his memory:

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Armbruster

In specific, Brother Adam owed much of his breeding approach to Armbruster’s 1919 text ‘Bienenzüchtungskunde’ which is loosely translated as ‘The Science of Bee Breeding, an Art’.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bienenzüchtungskunde

One of many tenants that Brother Adam adopted from the text is that one must establish specific, measurable goals for one’s breeding effort to help evaluate whether progress is being made. He reminds us that, _“A comprehensive knowledge and assessment of the characteristics, which we can influence by breeding, forms the necessary foundation for a successful breeding programme.”_

He further adopted (and quoted) Armbruster when he observed that there are, _“… three aims in beekeeping: a sportive one, a scientific one, [and] an economic one.” _[p. 55]

Here we see that our goals and objectives are largely influenced by the aims of our beekeeping efforts, namely: enjoyment, research or business.

For Brother Adam, he was unambiguous in his breeding goal:



Litsinger said:


> ... _"...the development of a strain that will produce the maximum returns with a minimum of labour."_ [_Best Strains_ p. 43]


He goes on to say that, _“He maintains (referring to Armbruster), and so do I, that this objective can only be obtained by cross-breeding, by combining in one strain, as far as possible, the desirable characteristics of the various geographical races. Nature can never bring about such a combination; it can only be effected by the direct intervention of man.”_

I sincerely wish you all a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous 2020- the start to another new decade.


----------



## Litsinger

With a high near 55 degrees F and sunny skies, the first day of the new year presented an excellent opportunity to collect mites for review.

I renewed the trays on December 18th so it has been a fortnight since installation.

Below I have listed the total number of mites collected per hive and the percentage of mites with obvious missing appendages beside.

The evaluations were completed in accord with the procedure recommended by Dr. Brock Harpur at Purdue University and as generally outlined in the following article:

https://www.beeculture.com/breeding-mite-biting-bees-to-control-varroa/

Helpful to my review were the attached photo and annotated anatomical outline respectively of the ventral side of a mite.

Also helpful was the following link, describing the various acarine anatomical terms:

https://idtools.org/id/mites/invasi...entification/key/0_Glossary/Mite_Glossary.htm

I will follow with representative photos and descriptions of typical observations.

#1803 - 9 (78%)
#1804- 7 (57%)
#1907- 5 (40%)
#1909- 6 (100%)
#1910- 2 (100%)
#1911- 3 (100%)
#1912- 5 (40%)


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I will follow with representative photos and descriptions of typical observations.


With the helpful assistance of Ms. Dorothey Morgan with the Kentucky Queen Bee Breeders Association, I was able to secure much better photo resolution which proved most helpful in evaluation. 

One interesting item of note is that as compared to summer and fall evaluations the damage seems to be predominantly observable on the mouthparts (gnathosoma) as opposed to the legs (tarsus). Example photos include:

1. Photo #1- Live (and visibly undamaged) mite.

2. Photo #2- Heavily damaged mite.

3. Photo #3- Mite with severed mouthparts.

4. Photo #4- Mite with severed legs.


----------



## tpope

Oh boy! Looks like you got bees that are maiming mites...


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## msl

given 40% is a "breeder" for Purdue MBB, I think something is up, maby time of year?


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## Litsinger

tpope said:


> Oh boy! Looks like you got bees that are maiming mites...


Thanks, TPope. We'll all get to watch together to see what unfolds.



msl said:


> given 40% is a "breeder" for Purdue MBB, I think something is up, maby time of year?


Certainly could be, MSL. Ms. Dorothey Morgan and their team are using a 50% cut-line for their breeding efforts. The Bee Culture article above talks about the difficulty of selecting the correct seasonal timing for evaluating the mite drops for the purposes of identifying breeding stock. 

For my part, I am going to simply continue recording as much data as practical and hopefully develop a data set that provides some sort of correlation.


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## Riverderwent

Litsinger said:


> One interesting item of note is that as compared to summer and fall evaluations the damage seems to be predominantly observable on the mouthparts (gnathosoma) as opposed to the legs (tarsus).


Good photos. Great bees.


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## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> Good photos. Great bees.


Thank you for your encouragement, David. I sincerely appreciate it.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 6.	Selection Principles


As one might imagine, Brother Adam has much to say concerning the fundamentals which under gird selection in honeybees. One of the most basic and important considerations is the fact that, _“ … a colony of bees is an agglomeration of groups, each with its own definite set of hereditary dispositions, and it is these taken together which bestow on each community of bees its actual peculiar set of characteristics.”_ [p. 11]

Meaning a single colony is represented by many different family groups (each with their own inherent strengths and weaknesses) which comprise the performance of the colony as a whole.

Here Brother Adam reminds us that an undue focus on external characteristics (such as color or banding) will at best be of but limited value for evaluation purposes and at worst might stifle our goals of bee improvement. He notes, _“Uniformity of external characteristics in bee breeding is no guarantee of purity of inheritance.”_ [p. 27]

I should note that this does not mean that Brother Adam was unconcerned with external characteristics (he in fact used them as one of his assessments of isolated stocks) but that external characteristics in and of themselves do not conflate any particular prediction as to the ultimate performance or heredity of a colony.

Building on this idea, Brother Adam speaks often that colony performance is the synthesis of the interplay of myriad factors rather than the direct result of single performance metrics. He observes, _“… performance does not depend upon one factor but always on the harmonious interplay of a series of factors. The more perfect this harmony, the greater is the potential for performance.”_ [p. 65]

In fact, without this successful synergy, individual traits we might be interested in (inherent varroa resistance for example) may not be able to express themselves fully. He declares, _“One good trait demands a whole chain of other good traits. Indeed without the interaction of this chain one single characteristic cannot develop to the full.” _[p. 57]

From this perspective, Brother Adam builds the framework for the possibilities available through careful cross-breeding.


----------



## Gray Goose

Riverderwent said:


> Good photos. Great bees.


the mouth part mauling "could" be the bees ripping the mite off another bee, it resisted they bite the part connected. As I recall the mite attached itself for feeding on Hemalympth, so presumably the mouth is attached. If removal is wanted the disconnect would need to happen. So "let go or I bite your mouth parts off"

Or the bees have figured out that with out a mouth part the Mite cannot attach.
I would believe the first, mouth parts damaged during removal.

Interesting observations..


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## BernhardHeuvel

Nice work and summary at the end of that work. Well worth reading it carefully.

Citation:
The seven-year continuous record from one of these reserves, Cape Point, demonstrates that this Cape honeybee (Apis mellifera capensis) population has developed almost total tolerance to the varroa mite (Varroa destructor), to the extent that there are practically no mites remaining in these colonies (Table 5.1; Figure 5.1). Furthermore, this varroa tolerance developed within 4-5 years of the first arrival of the mite, and without any significant colony losses. Indeed, varroa populations in the Cape Point honeybee population never rose to dangerous levels, peaking at 6.5% after three years. This is the first case of fully-documented mite tolerance anywhere in the world, where a population has been continuously monitored from the first arrival of the mite until full tolerance has developed, and the first accurate confirmation that (at least) some African honeybees are tolerant to the varroa mite. 
[...]
As for the underlying causes of the observed varroa tolerance in Cape honeybees, a number of factors were investigated. Some of these factors *clearly were not involved in varroa tolerance* in Cape honeybees, these being aggression directed at the mites or grooming by the bees to mechanically remove mites, the relative attractiveness of A.m.capensis brood, and the possibility of pseudoscorpions acting as biocontrol agents of the varroa mite. A mere 0.2% (4 out of 2148; Table 5.6) of mites on the hive inserts were found to have bite marks, indicating the almost total lack of direct aggression towards varroa mites by Cape honeybees. 

from:
https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/27094/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1

ANALYSIS OF VARROA DESTRUCTOR INFESTATION OF SOUTHERN AFRICAN HONEYBEE POPULATIONS
MIKE ALLSOPP


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## BernhardHeuvel

Another one bites the...mite.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ey-bee-colonies-as-criteria-for-selection.pdf

*Classification and quantification of damaged Varroa jacobsoni found in the debris of honey bee colonies as criteria for selection?*
American Bee Journal · October 2000


*BREEDING MITE-BITING BEES TO CONTROL VARROA*
https://www.beeculture.com/breeding-mite-biting-bees-to-control-varroa/


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> the mouth part mauling "could" be the bees ripping the mite off another bee, it resisted they bite the part connected. As I recall the mite attached itself for feeding on Hemalympth, so presumably the mouth is attached. If removal is wanted the disconnect would need to happen. So "let go or I bite your mouth parts off"
> 
> Or the bees have figured out that with out a mouth part the Mite cannot attach.
> I would believe the first, mouth parts damaged during removal.
> 
> Interesting observations..


Gray Goose:

You might be on to something here. Thank you for the input.

Now that I am able to get better resolution out of the microscope, let's see what Spring brings and we can compare.

Thanks again for all your help!

Russ


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## Litsinger

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Nice work and summary at the end of that work. Well worth reading it carefully.





BernhardHeuvel said:


> Another one bites the...mite.


Bernhard:

Thank you for the helpful research papers. I thoroughly enjoyed reading them both. It seems that the _'Analysis of Varroa Destructor Infestation of Southern African Honeybee Populations'_ helps unlock at least a part of the findings contained within the _'Classification and Quantification of Damaged Varroa Jacobsoni Found in the Debris of Honey Bee Colonies as Criteria for Selection?'_

Specifically, the 'Classification' paper summarizes, _"We classified the fallen mites (collected in 24 hour intervals) found in 10 Africanized honey bee colonies according to the type of damage found, to determine if any particular kind of damage would be indicative of efficient resistance of the honey bee colonies. Among the 1201 adult female mites collected, 36.9% were found damaged, which is similar to the percentage damaged mites reported for European bees, despite the fact that Africanized bees tolerate varroa better than Europeans."_

Meaning (as I understand it) that they could not draw any correlation between relative mite tolerance in Africanized bees and mite damage.

In the 'Analysis' paper they conclude:

_"It should be noted that no single resistance mechanism is considered to be responsible for the varroa tolerance of honeybee populations in Russia, Arizona and Kentucky (Erickson et al 1998; De Guzman et al 2002). Rather, an amalgam of many different traits both behavioural and physiological is considered to be responsible for the tolerance. In the mite tolerance in African bees, this smorgasbord of tolerance-inducing characteristics appears not to be the case. The direct aggression of African honeybees to varroa mites, the presence of a natural biocontrol agent, and the attractivity of brood to mites could all be excluded as possible causes of tolerance, leaving only hygienic behaviour and the short post-capping period of Cape honeybees as the cause of mite tolerance. These are, however, considered sufficient to explain the in-hive development of mite tolerance in African bees." _

They also note that, _"The rapid development of mite tolerance in the Cape bee is thought to be due to the well developed removal of varroa-infested brood and the short post-capping period of worker brood. Together these resulted in a very rapid increase in infertile mites in the colony, the collapse of the mite population, and varroa tolerance. Tolerance does not develop as rapidly in Savanna honeybees as the post-capping period in these bees is similar to that of European bees and does not result in as many infertile mites."_

So I understand that the study's author concludes that there is either single or dual-action resistance at work in the Savanna and Cape honeybee respectively and multi-mode action at work in other surveyed results in resistant EHB populations.

Practically speaking, I am making no active selection decisions with the in-situ colonies but rather recording any data (such as mite biting) I can to ascertain what (if anything) can be utilized for predictive analysis in the future.

If I had to venture a guess, I would expect that any honeybees which demonstrate a modicum of resistance in the US do so as the result of a successful conjunction of multiple factors. I find helpful a paper that Fusion_Power referenced some months ago which briefly outlines the various resistance mechanisms which have been identified:

https://aristabeeresearch.org/varroa-resistance/

Beyond this, there were a couple additional 'nuggets' in the 'Analysis' paper that I found interesting:

_"The speed with which mite tolerance will develop will depend on population postcapping time and population hygienic behaviour, but there appears no reason why it would not develop in any honeybee population, given enough time."_

_"Bailey (1999) and Allsopp (1999) have argued that selective breeding for “quality” by and for beekeepers has decreased the resistance in honeybee populations to a wide range of pathogens. Highly intensive selection has decreased genetic variability and selected against critical 'bee tolerance' factors such as swarming and defensiveness (Bailey 1999). A more sensible approach would be to: (a) Manage naturally occurring regional strains of honeybee, rather than importing strains from elsewhere. This is particularly important in Europe and Africa where Apis mellifera is indigenous and less so where it is an exotic species. (b) Practise “primitive” beekeeping as is the case in Africa by allowing natural selection processes to determine which are the most significant characteristics for selection and not the beekeepers or bee scientists, at least to some extent. It is also best to use an un-manipulated wild population, and for this population to be as large as possible."_

Thanks again for the information. I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Concerning the nuggets. Yes, given enough time, resistance will develop. Even with human interference in the process.

a) From practical experience like that from Brother Adam, you will have to import some new strains when breeding for resistance. Especially if the local bee doesn't have any resistance at all in their genetics. That was the case with the tracheal mites that wiped out the British black bee in great numbers. And now doesn't bother bees in Europe much anymore. Thanks to the importing of new strains that had the defensive mechanisms in their genes. 

Of course, given enough time, the non-native strains will immigrate on their own...one day...

b) I have been keeping bees in primitive hives all my beekeeping career long. Was a playful GregV myself. Simply doesn't do it. Of course I learned a thing or two. Especially that propolis envelope makes a great difference in hardiness. But other than that a hollow tree won't be a solution to anything. Part of the problem is the high bee hive density here. In Africa you have the distance between the nest sites, which you don't have here.

Given enough time all hives will be wiped out eventually. Thus the density would be greatly reduced. 

But that would come with some downsides for nature. We already have a rapid decline in insects. In Germany a loss of 75 % of the overall insect mass during the last decade has been scientifically described and confirmed. A huge loss in insect eating bird species, too. The rate of loss of species is as fast as was the distinction of the dinosaurs. No exaggeration but actually true.

Since the other insects die out from other causes than varroa, I guess, there has to be other factors that leads to problems for insects in general. As beekeepers we choose to watch for bite marks on dead varroa. While crouching under the hives we miss what is going on around us. 

Just my two nuggets.


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## Litsinger

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Just my two nuggets.


Bernhard:

Thank you for your reply. I sincerely appreciate your perspective. I share your concern for our natural environment and seek to be a good steward with the resources I have been entrusted with, at least to the extent that I have the power to affect change.

Regarding the best path forward for developing an inherent resistance to varroa I currently subscribe to an 'all the above' approach. I am excited to read about how individuals from all over the world are approaching the problem from many different angles and I am hopeful that we will one day have one or many avenues available to disseminate resistance broadly.

It is certainly possible (at least as I see it) that there are at least three paths forward:

1. Natural Selection- As generally described in the 'Analysis' excerpt above.

2. Controlled Mating- Also discussed in the 'Analysis' paper: _"Other researchers (e.g. Danka et al 1997; Rinderer et al 2001) have argued that there would be no natural resistance to varroa, and that all unmanaged colonies would be eliminated with only especially bred commercial stock being able to survive. Chemical or biotechnical treatment of colonies (Van Dung et al 1997; Goodwin & Van Eaton 2001), and the breeding of selected stock to develop resistance (Rinderer et al 2001), are held as the only way to maintain colonies faced with the varroa mite. There have also been suggestions that this resistance needs to be maintained through controlled mating and/or gene based selection made possible by the Honeybee Genome project (Evans 2005), much as happens in many varieties of livestock and plant crops."_

3. No Inherent Mechanisms- In the course of time we may discover there is no reliable, broadly-reproducible method of propagating resistance mechanisms on a regional and/or global scale, at least in a time frame that is relevant to beekeepers at-large.

Thank you again for your input. I do look forward to hearing more about the experiences in your apiary.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> From this perspective, Brother Adam builds the framework for the possibilities available through careful cross-breeding.


As previously noted, Brother Adam felt that purposeful cross-breeding was the only reliable method to develop a honeybee best-suited to one's purposes.



Litsinger said:


> _"...by cross-breeding, by combining in one strain, as far as possible, the desirable characteristics of the various geographical races. Nature can never bring about such a combination; it can only be effected by the direct intervention of man."_ [_'In Search of the Best Strains of Bees' _ p. 43]


In fact he observes that, _“… Nature never breeds for the perfection of the factors we desire for our commercial needs."_ [p. 11 + 12] 

He confidently noted,_ “The synthetization of new combinations by way of cross-breeding is, indeed, the only breeding worthy of the name. It alone enables us to actualize all the different potentialities involved. For it alone has the power of bringing together all the various races and strains with their desirable economic qualities, of combining these into new types of bee, while at the same time eliminating the deleterious traits, and thus producing a bee which will completely answer all the needs of modern beekeeping.”_ [_'Best Strains' _p. 206]

Brother Adam also succinctly accentuates this concept by remarking, _“…cross-breeding brings out qualities unsuspected in pure-bred stock.”_ [_'Best Strains'_ p. 174]


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Brother Adam used inbreeding, cross-breeding and combination breeding as tools. He more or less copied nature's way to "breed" by doing so.










There was a main line, the pure breed line. (inbreeding) 

There were also side lines. 

In a first step, a foreign bee was crossed with an existing buckfast. (cross breeding)

He then selected from the first crossing and crossed them with an existing buckfast line for a second time. (combination breeding)

From the second crossing, he introduced the best outcomes with the main line. (sort of line breeding)


So he didn't cross everything and using only hybridization. The opposite. Note that his way to breed needs a decade to do. 

But let's let him speak for himself:


Extract from a presentation he held in Germany: 1953, Hannover

*pure breed*
Pure breeding leads to the maintenance of a constant inheritance and performance. Pure breeding is the indispensable means. the only means that leads to permanence and success in breeding. The combination and mutation breeder must resort to pure breeding. to maintain what has been achieved.

A well-managed pure breeding can without a doubt achieve great things. However, there are certain limits to pure breeding. Singling out, growing out and fixing the desired properties is a tedious, tedious job. The intensification of this or that property can only be achieved step by step and can only be fixed by persistent, purposeful perseverance. An increase in performance is limited and exhausted as soon as the desired properties are almost pure, homozygous. Moreover, once purebredness is achieved through inbreeding, there is a risk of deterioration in vitality and performance. The possibility of "breeding" should not be neglected. Although pure breeding is the inevitable path to any lasting progress in honeybee improvement, but it must be done on the broadest basis, failure is to be avoided.

To avoid the dangers of inbreeding, the Americans recently developed their quadruple hybrid method. Actually, these are not bastards in the strict sense of the word. but only crosses between pure lines of one and the same breed (Italians). It is a kind of pure breeding. but managed on a very broad basis. I would consider it line breeding, except that in this case the line crossings are not used for further breeding. The main advantage of this breeding method is the avoidance of inbreeding damage and the succession of breeding products with "Hybrid Vigor" - the special vitality and energy with which F1 bastards are often gifted or a ennobling of bees. It completely misses the essential goal of all breeding, namely the permanent preservation of what has been achieved.

*mutation breeding*
Every living being has new hereditary changes, called mutations. Such genetic changes quickly disappear in nature, since they rarely mean an advantage for their bearers.

In the case of the honey bee, one can hardly speak of mutation breeding, because the mutations that have been observed so far almost exclusively cause pathological symptoms. such as red or white eyes, missing over-hair or lack of coloration of the hair - lack of development of the eggs or egg numbness - inadequate processing of the nectar, caused by either an organic or physiological error. The only genetic change found so far that can be considered an advantage from a certain point of view would be the inherited inability of a mated queen to lay unfertilized eggs - a queen that cannot produce drones after mating. It is a mutation that occurs very rarely. An organic defect, which is inherited from the queen. The possibility would probably be given to breed this mutation purely by means of after drones or sons of an unmarried queen. However, this is a laborious process. However, this mutation is of great scientific importance. This case proves the possibility of mutation breeding of economic value.

*combination breeding*
Pure breeding can only breed traits that are already present in the genome of a breed or a strain. What is not there cannot be grown out. Consequently, the existing genetic makeup of a breed determines the limits of any breeding effort. We know, however, that each breed of honeybee has different desirable economic properties.

In order to combine the various desirable economic properties of the individual bee breed, we have to move to combination breeding.
Combination breeding in bees is largely an unexplored area. The theoretical possibilities and problems have already been largely considered in the literature. Large-scale practical experiments in this area of ​​beekeeping are hardly known. Perhaps my longstanding attempts in this regard are the only ones that can have practical results.

The technical difficulties of combination breeding are certainly not small. In my opinion, however, the theoretical ones are overestimated. In the case of multiple bastardization, there is no doubt that the ideal case will hardly ever be grasped in the split - at least not directly, at most by detours. But that does not change the fact that economically extremely valuable new combinations can still be achieved, as well as new types of bees


I attach an automatically translation of the transcript of his lecture. For your interest.

View attachment beebreeding-BrotherAdam-engl.pdf


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## Litsinger

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Brother Adam used inbreeding, cross-breeding and combination breeding as tools. He more or less copied nature's way to "breed" by doing so.


Bernhard:

Great reply. I sincerely appreciate the detailed reply and extended commentary from Brother Adam concerning the various breeding approaches utilized to maintain the Buckfast. Your feedback is a good segue to a couple additional bee breeding precepts that Brother Adam noted in his texts that I found insightful, starting with his admonition that, _“Admittedly, we must revert to pure breeding to stabilize and fix the set of new characteristics and give them permanence, for without this factor all our endeavours would be of little avail.”_ [p. 116]



BernhardHeuvel said:


> Pure breeding can only breed traits that are already present in the genome of a breed or a strain. What is not there cannot be grown out. Consequently, the existing genetic makeup of a breed determines the limits of any breeding effort. We know, however, that each breed of honeybee has different desirable economic properties.


Brother Adam provided a comparison to pure breeding versus cross-breeding by remarking, _“… cross-breeding when properly conducted offers the possibility of synthesizing at will the genes which are at hand and also of producing new combinations which better meet our needs today.”_ [p. 27]

Brother Adam further generalized this concept by noting that, _“It has been clearly demonstrated that there is hardly a characteristic of the honeybee which is not due to a combination of genes.”_ [p. 41]

I was helpful to me to recognize that while cross-breeding might unlock surprising results, those combinations are still constrained by the gene combinations made available by such a mating. Meaning practically that while there are no doubt expansive possibilities available with appropriate cross-breeding, it will still be limited by what is available in the genes.



BernhardHeuvel said:


> I attach an automatically translation of the transcript of his lecture. For your interest.
> 
> View attachment 53127


I look forward to reading this transcript in its entirety soon. Thank you for sending along the English translation.

Thank you again for your feedback, and have a great day.

Russ


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## bloink

Brother Adams strains were mainly bred from 3-4 queens. 
The anatolian (Sinop). cecropia (Athos), sahariensis and the "old Buckfast" which was a randomly mated cross of the old english bee and the ligustica.

Other Strains have been checked and bred in the abbey to isolate their characteristics before crossing with his main strain. But he mostly used other strains as drone colonies for mating or insemination.
He checked many strains of the Carniolian, the black bee etc. and discarded most of the crosses because his main strain did not benefit. 
A good example is the Carniolian bee. He checked so many different strains of carniolian bees but he discarded every cross with the buckfast strain because of their high tendency to swarm.

Another example ist the Egyptian Bee which was crossed with the anatolian. The anatolian produces far too much propolis, whereas the egyptian bee does not produce any propolis. And with this cross he combined the thriftiness of the anatolian and the use of propolis from the egyptian bee which he stabilized in the following years.

Chris


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## BernhardHeuvel

bloink said:


> the "old Buckfast" which was a randomly mated cross of the old english bee and the ligustica.


Wasn't it the french dark bee crossed with the Cyprian bee?


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## Hunajavelho

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Wasn't it the french dark bee crossed with the Cyprian bee?


if we are talking about the old Buckfast strain before any further cross- or combination breeding, then it is as follows.

In his book 'Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey', on page 14, there says; The Buckfast strain has been evolved from a cross between the leather-coloured Italian bee and the old native English variety.

But there is
in the year 1920 there is a mentioning of one hundred daughters raised from breeder B-1 (Ligurian origin) and a similar number of daughters from a Cyprian queen.
But there is not in his books or pedigrees any further mentioning about the Cyprian bee until as late as the 1951...

And wasn't the French mellifera introduced later in 1930 and the following years?

The origin of the Buckfast bee;
http://www.pedigreeapis.org/elver/ori/origin-en.html


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## bloink

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Wasn't it the french dark bee crossed with the Cyprian bee?


From the origin of the Buckfast bee:

The required queens were raised from stock that survived the epidemic. Among the queens raised in 1919 was one that embodied all the desirable qualities of the Ligurian and former Native in an ideal combination. Indeed this particular queen was duly registered as Breeder No. B-1 and the progenitor of the present-day strain.

So the first Buckfast Breeder B-1 was an ideal combination of the Ligurian and former native english bee. 
His mating station was established on June 1st 1925. All the queens prior to 1925 were mated at random.



Hunajavelho said:


> And wasn't the French mellifera introduced later in 1930 and the following years?
> 
> The origin of the Buckfast bee;
> http://www.pedigreeapis.org/elver/ori/origin-en.html


You're right, I forgot about the French Mellifera.


----------



## Litsinger

bloink, Bernhard and Hunajavelho:

I sincerely appreciate each of your recent posts concerning the Buckfast breeding program. I have certainly learned much in the course of reading about Brother Adam's goals and approach to bee improvement, and it has helped me better grasp some of the more fundamental elements of bee breeding.

Another thread of thought he had along these lines that resonates with me is the idea that, _“True results of lasting value are not acquired over night, They come in stages almost unperceived over a period of years, as is the case with all permanent successes.”_ [p. 90]

When one considers the time and effort he invested in improving the Buckfast, it is easy to understand why he was so circumspect in adding new cross-breeding material to the mating lines. 

He also tempers the idea of a perfect breeding process when he notes, _“There are no findings of universal validity; one can but proceed along general guidelines.” _[p. 114 + 115] 

Remarking also that, _“… we can hardly ever obtain the ideal combinations. But as experience proves we can get approximations to the ideal which give us worthwhile results. These approximations lead step by step to others, so that gradually we do approach the ideal for which we are aiming.”_ [p. 35]

Comments like these remind me that there will always be failures, disappointments and unexpected outcomes in our apiaries but that hopefully the overall trajectory of our efforts is pointing toward increased success, at least as defined by our personal goals.

Thank you all again for your contributions. I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


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## Litsinger

Dr. John Chamber's presentation at the 2019 National Honey Show entitled, _'Basic Honey Bee Genetics for Beekeepers'_ is finally up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-pAQt6pFhM

I've also attached the text of the presentation for reference.


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## msl

LOL
I was totally going to send you the link about 2 days ago and forgot after watching it! 

I though it odd that he was pushing for "native" black bee given brother Adams claim that they went extinct.:lookout:
guess there were some left


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## BernhardHeuvel

wishful thinking.


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## Hunajavelho

After the ice age the A.m.m is only "native" to northern Europe because all other bees where impeded to enter norther Europe by mountain ranges and treeless steppes, until man came to the rescue.
Br. Adam also writes about this in his book "Breeding the honeybee", in the same book he also answers most of the arguments that Dr. Chamber states.

The Italian bee is the dominant bee in Finland, where we have 6 months of no foraging. I think there is no need of any other proof of how adaptive the honeybee is and nature is a great help when breeding for wintering ability.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Hunajavelho said:


> I think there is no need of any other proof of how adaptive the honeybee is and nature is a great help when breeding for wintering ability.


+1 :thumbsup:

Nature is not a museum where a given state is frozen forever. Nature is about adaption, and adaption is necessary for life to function. 

If we didn't need to adapt all the time, there would be no death necessary. Living things die, because they need to adapt their life form (form follows function). They pass their information through genetics and epigenetic to the descendants. New forms come up and life goes on. Life saved.

By trying to keep a specific life form as is forever, people actually hinder life and promote death. Individual saved, life ruined.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> I though it odd that he was pushing for "native" black bee given brother Adams claim that they went extinct.:lookout:
> guess there were some left





Hunajavelho said:


> The Italian bee is the dominant bee in Finland, where we have 6 months of no foraging. I think there is no need of any other proof of how adaptive the honeybee is and nature is a great help when breeding for wintering ability.





BernhardHeuvel said:


> Living things die, because they need to adapt their life form (form follows function). They pass their information through genetics and epigenetic to the descendants. New forms come up and life goes on. Life saved.


Gentlemen:

Thank you for your feedback. While I certainly cannot speak for Dr. Chambers, my understanding based on evaluation of his published work is that he is far from an AMM apologist nor is he offering any opinions concerning local adaptation from a specific bias toward the 'native' British Bee.

In fact, I believe that he would heartily agree with the assertion that Nature goes to extraordinary lengths to promote survival in the local context and does so with no respect to pedigree.

It is with this framework in mind that he outlines the 2015 genetic findings of 23 colonies in Cornwall (47:00 - 52:00) in which he discusses AMM. In short:

1. The genetic analysis indicated that 14 of the 23 colonies had over 90% of their nuclear DNA represented by mellifera.

2. However, 14 of the 23 colonies also had mitochondrial DNA indicating that their lineage had origins in carnica.

His point in presenting this information is to suggest that a local bee population will relentlessly pursue the survival advantage of local adaptation (irrespective of the pedigree) when given the opportunity to do so. 

I would suggest that he encapsulates this ethos in a response he has offered to a similar critique:

_"I can honestly assure you that I am not a propagandist for BIBBA (Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders Association). Regrettably, my passing references to anthropogenic bee improvement techniques of any kind (regardless of who employs them and to what end) were unflattering in the main for the simple reason that they represent the genetic antithesis of almost everything that the natural honey bee mating process tries to achieve. Many ideas in the presentation will have been very difficult indeed for some BIBBA members to hear and this was actually the subsection of the audience that I was most worried about offending because I have considerable empathy towards them. I suspect that many BIBBA members would dearly love the importation and long-distance transportation of honey bees to stop because of the genetic damage it causes to locally-adapted stock and the disease that it can spread, and I would dearly love the same thing. However, there might not be much common ground between us beyond that point with regard to the best way to facilitate stock improvement or what that improved stock might look like. As I said in my first slide: there are as many opinions about how to keep bees as there are bee keepers."_


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## little_john

Hunajavelho said:


> After the ice age the A.m.m is only "native" to northern Europe because *all other bees where impeded to enter norther Europe by mountain ranges and treeless steppes, until man came to the rescue.*


I think that mnust be the most preposterous idea I've ever heard expressed: that bees which have been geologically isolated for perhaps millions of years - enough time certainly to have evolved characteristics quite dissimilar from each other and proven appropriate for those areas - a timescale which demonstrates an ongoing survival during such a timescale, thus suggesting a continued viability _ad infinitum_ - should be considered to have been *rescued* by humans within just the last few hundred years.
LJ


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## Gray Goose

little_john said:


> I think that mnust be the most preposterous idea I've ever heard expressed: that bees which have been geologically isolated for perhaps millions of years - enough time certainly to have evolved characteristics quite dissimilar from each other and proven appropriate for those areas - a timescale which demonstrates an ongoing survival during such a timescale, thus suggesting a continued viability _ad infinitum_ - should be considered to have been *rescued* by humans within just the last few hundred years.
> LJ


I think the rescue was to carry them over the mountains and thru the woods, rescue from being trapped by the Ice. " Rescue from Impeded to enter" I guess open to interpretation.
GG


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## little_john

Gray Goose said:


> I think the rescue was to carry them over the mountains and thru the woods, rescue from being trapped by the Ice. " Rescue from Impeded to enter" I guess open to interpretation.
> GG


An interesting perspective, but I can't quite see that - because if these 'other impeded bees' were indeed 'rescued' as is being suggested, then AMM would not have become the only subspecies native to Northern Europe.

As I see it: isolation - providing the population is large enough to moderate the degree of in-breeding which will inevitably occur - will proceed to provide the stability which is a necessary pre-requirement for evolutionary change. 
LJ


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## BernhardHeuvel

Maybe I don't read it right, but for change inbreeding is a killer. Not being able to react and adapt, kills. 
For something to change, you have to bring in new genes. That is why there always is contact to the outside the "isolation" in the real world, so from time to time there is new blood in the gene pool. Making advance possible. 

Nature's way to breed is inbreeding, line breeding and cross-breeding in subsequent phases.


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## Hunajavelho

little_john said:


> An interesting perspective, but I can't quite see that - because if these 'other impeded bees' were indeed 'rescued' as is being suggested, then AMM would not have become the only subspecies native to Northern Europe.
> 
> As I see it: isolation - providing the population is large enough to moderate the degree of in-breeding which will inevitably occur - will proceed to provide the stability which is a necessary pre-requirement for evolutionary change.
> LJ


I did not mean that any bees needed any rescue...
little john, what I meant was that for example the Italian bee and the Carniolan bee was not able to enter northern Europe before man brought it there. 
A.m.m. (or the bee that would become the a.m.m.) was able to make it on it's own through gaps on both sides of the Pyrenees to northern Europe from the Iberian peninsuela.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Hunajavelho said:


> A.m.m. (or the bee that would become the a.m.m.) was able to make it on it's own through gaps on both sides of the Pyrenees to northern Europe from the Iberian peninsuela.


Or was brought there by early man. 

I seriously think, that bees and mankind have a very long connection. I mean, before beer there were bees. Before beer was found they only had mead. Sure they would carry bees with them to a new place to settle. I would.


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## little_john

Hunajavelho said:


> little john, what I meant was that for example the Italian bee and the Carniolan bee was not able to enter northern Europe before man brought it there.


Sure - but the word 'rescue' implied (to me) that you were suggesting that those bees were somehow in trouble and that we humans were doing them a big favour by extending their breeding area - whereas history shows us that those bees which became isolated due to geological or geographical barriers did ok with the area and population they had. So ok in fact that they evolved characteristics which we humans later considered to be superior (for our purposes) than what we had with AMM - that being the motivation for importing those bees to replace AMM.

The reality is that we have never done the honeybee any favours: throughout history humans have *always* exploited the honeybee for their own ends. Until sugar-cane plantations and sugar-beet farming usurped honey as the principle source of dietary 'sweetness', the honeybee was a vitally important creature - it still is, but now more so for it's role as a pollinator than for it's honey producing abilities. And yet so many beekeepers are still employing an out-dated paradigm - in breeding bees with the aim of producing the maximum honey harvest - when this is no longer strictly necessary for human survival.

We could very easily ease-up on maximising honey yields and focus instead upon survivability - which is where, arguably, the ambitions of BIBBA make a whole lot of sense (to me). I don't happen to share their ambitions - as the genie has been let out of the bottle for far too long - but I fully understand the thinking behind their views.
LJ


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## Litsinger

Yesterday's high of approximately 63 degrees F presented a great opportunity to observe the bees.

All the colonies were bringing in a bit of dirty yellow pollen, and #1905 was particularly busy.

I happened to catch #1910 in a decent orientation exercise around 4:00 p.m. local time- this colony has been the least active all winter thus far.

It is way too early, but I went ahead and set-out and primed four swarm traps just because the weather was so pleasant.

We have only our second round of nighttime lows in the teens thus far this winter in the forecast so this will likely be the next big test.


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## gww

Russ
I chatted with some guys who say they have bees working maples and there are some dandelions. 

My only real swarmy year was one that got warm early and so I had swarms about two weeks from dandelion start. That was april 13 here that one year. I usually like to bait up my traps first of march if we get warm enough cause then I know it is done. 

This may be a weird year and maybe you are not as early as you think but either way, you are ready. 

Cool on the hive you had to give a boost (or was that hive 1909), goes to show how all hives don't do the same or stay static and each year can be different. Last year my oldest unsplit hive gave me the most per hive honey compared to the rest and it did not do that in the years before.

I hope your swarm catching stresses your ability to keep enough equipment on hand. Than you will be walking in tall cotton.
Good luck
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Cool on the hive you had to give a boost (or was that hive 1909), goes to show how all hives don't do the same or stay static and each year can be different.


Thank you, GWW. You always have an encouraging word, and I appreciate that about you.

This past Spring I had to give #1804 a boost (based on good advice from you all) and they seem to be doing just fine this winter, thus far.

I did put some sugar atop #1905 late in the Fall for fear that they would run out of food- this is the colony that continues to out-forage all others, making me wonder if they are trying to brood their way out of trouble... and likely starve out in the process. We'll see.



gww said:


> I hope your swarm catching stresses your ability to keep enough equipment on hand.


I appreciate your well-wishes and I heartily extend the same to you. How is everything going in your yard this Winter?


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Yesterday's high of approximately 63 degrees F presented a great opportunity to observe the bees.
> 
> All the colonies were bringing in a bit of dirty yellow pollen, and #1905 was particularly busy.
> 
> I happened to catch #1910 in a decent orientation exercise around 4:00 p.m. local time- this colony has been the least active all winter thus far.
> 
> It is way too early, but I went ahead and set-out and primed four swarm traps just because the weather was so pleasant.
> 
> We have only our second round of nighttime lows in the teens thus far this winter in the forecast so this will likely be the next big test.
> 
> View attachment 53209
> View attachment 53211
> View attachment 53213
> View attachment 53215
> View attachment 53217


Hey, cool.
I see your Warre hive is alive and well.
Did the dry sugar help? Is it being used?


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## gww

russ


> How is everything going in your yard this Winter?


Like you, I have some that do not hang out at the entrance like others do. So far, If I put my ear to them and flick the hive with my finger, I get a small hum from all of them.
I guess my memory is going and thank you for the refresh info on your helped hives.
Time will tell come spring. 
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Did the dry sugar help? Is it being used?


Thanks for the feedback, GregV. Hive #1905 is indeed alive thus far. I am not certain whether they are actually using the sugar yet, but they do take great pains to haul it out every time we have a little flying weather.

As you noted in another post, the MC feeding is helpful for no other reason than a diagnostic tool to quickly evaluate and ascertain if they seem to be in need.

I appreciate all your help and advice.

Russ


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Like you, I have some that do not hang out at the entrance like others do. So far, If I put my ear to them and flick the hive with my finger, I get a small hum from all of them.


GWW:

Why am I not surprised that you are batting 1.000 again this Winter... well done.

Have you noticed your colonies acting different this Winter versus previous winters due to not providing supplemental Fall feed this year?


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## gww

Russ
This year has been different in that we have had more days, so far, that the bees can actually leave the hive. I have not had the bees searching me personally seeing if I might be good to eat but have had the bees hit the chicken feed much earlier then I ever remember.

I do not see big traffic at the hives even when they are out except I did once catch a few in orientation or potty flights. My smallest hive box wise (two box instead of three) has bees filling the hole at the reduced entrance where my bigger hives seem to have only a few bees crawling around the entrance or none but some slow coming and going. It makes me wonder on the ones with no bees hanging down at the entrance but the hum when tapped makes me feel a bit better.

If they do not run out of food, I would think that maybe the hives would fare a little better with honey then fast fed sugar due to probably spreading a little pollen in with the honey compared to the sugar water and fast filling that happens with fast feeding. I have seen their pollen bags full and I assume that it is chicken food they are carrying.

I am not overly confident that they will all live and so worry about the ones with the least amount of bees hanging out at the entrance but also take consolation in the fact that all the big hives have fewer bees at entrance compared to the small one. So some of the difference could just be how fast the volume heats up during sun light with big taking longer. I really need to spend the six bucks it would take to buy a cheap stethoscope but then think that I can not change things at this point and so why do it. I have a vague feeling that I may have thought the hives were louder in previous time and don't know what to take from that. It could be that they were louder when eating more meaning that maybe whether was better this year but I don't know that.

Since I know so little what really means what, I just cross my fingers. So far so good. It is fun to think about and I try and gather what I see and try and remember hoping to learn from it but do not feel confident in the observations or memorys and especially my attributing cause and effect.

We are heading towards our coldest temps of the year this weekend.

I told a guy about two hundred miles away from me that he could have the queen and a split off of my oldest never split hive this spring if he wants to drive here and do the work. He says he does and so I hope they are still alive come then.

He is into grafting and expanding like crazy and is a treater. He has much more ambition then I do. If it happens, maybe I will learn something while he is here.
Cheers
gww


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Thanks for the feedback, GregV. Hive #1905 is indeed alive thus far. I am not certain whether they are actually using the sugar yet, but they do take great pains to haul it out every time we have a little flying weather.
> 
> As you noted in another post, the MC feeding is helpful for no other reason than a diagnostic tool to quickly evaluate and ascertain if they seem to be in need.
> 
> I appreciate all your help and advice.
> 
> Russ


Russ, Try Spray the MC pile with a little water to make it less granular and more of a block. if the grains are stuck together they will not haul out as much. I pour a pile of sugar into a cake pan add some water mix with a fork, let dry overnight and lay the block on the excluder or top bars. Seems to last better and still adsorb moisture and not get hauled out. Hauled out may mean Ant problems in the spring. Hopefully the rain will dilute it enough to avoid the issue.
GG


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## squarepeg

Gray Goose said:


> Russ, Try Spray the MC pile with a little water to make it less granular and more of a block.


when providing sugar as emergency feed i'll mix in just enough water to turn it into a thick paste. this prevents the hauling out of crystals and probably makes it easier for the bees to consume.


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## GregB

I start the MC pile with damp paper towel as the MC base - so that immediately cakes in sugar from the bottom up.
Moisten the dry sugar as you apply it.
I use water sprayer and do it well directly in place.
All in all, properly done MC sugar should become solid crusty mass and unmovable by the bees (discount for few crystals).


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## squarepeg

yes, should have added sugar paste is placed on newspaper and in that consistency can be pressed into patty form...


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Since I know so little what really means what, I just cross my fingers. So far so good. It is fun to think about and I try and gather what I see and try and remember hoping to learn from it but do not feel confident in the observations or memorys and especially my attributing cause and effect


GWW:

Good update- I apologize for my delay in reply as I have had the proverbial 'ox in the ditch' at work which has consumed a lot of bandwidth recently.

As I have often said, I do appreciate your self-deprecating nature but I think that your results suggest that you are at the very least doing no harm with the good stock that Providence has saw fit to send your way. In fact, I think most of us on this forum could content ourselves with your four year survival rate. Keep up the good work!

I suppose if you make it through this winter with flying colors, you might be inclined to experiment next year with no supplemental Fall feeding assuming they have adequate but not over-abundant stores?

I do appreciate all your help and advice along the way- you are quite a wealth of knowledge and good ideas.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Russ, Try Spray the MC pile with a little water to make it less granular and more of a block.





squarepeg said:


> when providing sugar as emergency feed i'll mix in just enough water to turn it into a thick paste. this prevents the hauling out of crystals and probably makes it easier for the bees to consume.





GregV said:


> I start the MC pile with damp paper towel as the MC base - so that immediately cakes in sugar from the bottom up.


Gentlemen:

Thank you for your helpful input concerning Mountain Camp feeding. I sincerely apologize for my delay in reply.

When I applied the feed late in the Fall, I utilized some of the tissue paper supplied between sheets of wax foundation for the base. On top of this I applied approximately 1" lifts of sugar which I then lightly spritzed with water before adding another layer until I had a solid sugar mass approximately 4 inches tall.

I checked on the feed yesterday during mild weather and I found they have hauled-out or consumed approximately 1/3 of the sugar and it is indeed a solid mass at this point.

I really do appreciate your collective input and I must confess that I am intrigued by Squarepeg's paste approach and look forward to giving that a try in the future.

Thank you all again for the help and advice. I am grateful.

Russ


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## gww

Russ


> I suppose if you make it through this winter with flying colors, you might be inclined to experiment next year with no supplemental Fall feeding assuming they have adequate but not over-abundant stores?


I did not supplement this year but this years flows also seemed different. We had good rain all year and I was surprised when I looked in the few I had looked at and they had honey full in the top box. Some had to fill that box in only a few weeks due to how late I took the last honey. Every year is different here and that is why I am having a hard time getting a handle on my average flows.

My goal is to keep bees with out feeding but I also understand the old adage that if you want to make god laugh, tell him your plans.
You seem to be doing great yourself and I am hoping it continues for you.
Cheers
gww
Ps Of course killing the one hive that may have had a little honey left in it might have helped some of the hive gathering Their winter stores so fast.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> My goal is to keep bees with out feeding but I also understand the old adage that if you want to make god laugh, tell him your plans.


GWW:

Thank you for the encouragement. I certainly understand and appreciate this axiom, and I do realize that each year brings a unique set of opportunities and challenges.

That said (and if I understand correctly), I think this is why Riverderwent always leaves a 'base load' of honey stores that allows one to adjust their yearly surplus gathering to correspond to the seasonal variation without having to provide supplemental feed as a rule.

I recognize that this means less honey for the beekeeper on average but maybe helps promote overall colony health? I know there are differing opinions on this, but it seems logical to me that if one has the luxury of not relying upon beekeeping for their livelihood there is little downside risk in such an approach.


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## Litsinger

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I attach an automatically translation of the transcript of his lecture. For your interest.
> 
> View attachment 53127


I'd like to let the attached lecture (graciously supplied in English by Bernhard) which Brother Adam gave to the Conference of German Queen Breeders in Hannover March 29th, 1953 serve as a good wrap-up of the conversation surrounding Selection Principles as espoused by Brother Adam.

In his book 'Breeding the Honeybee' Brother Adam outlined four Primary Qualities for performance (p. 56 + 57). In the attached lecture he briefly outlines these matrices:

1. Fecundity- _"A corresponding fertility is the essential precondition for our breeding goal. Without adequate ... strength, maximum yield is an impossibility. Great fertility alone is not the decisive factor, but it is nevertheless the essential basis of every top performance."_

2. Industry or Foraging Zeal- _"Among the indispensable properties, tireless diligence and a drive to collect are primarily considered. Diligence is the lever that converts all economic properties into real values."_

3. Resistance to Disease- _"One of the main tasks of breeding is the development of bee strains, to the greatest extent are disease-proof, which means that they resist the diseases and therefore save any treatment with medication. All Treatment with medicinal products has the disadvantage that their effects - if the disease is actually eliminated - is of temporary duration."_

4. Disinclination to Swarm- _"Swarming is actually the biggest obstacle to profitable beekeeping.... A breed ... may have all the other desirable traits, but_ [if] _it _[has]_... an overwhelming swarm instinct, such a breed is really worthless in a modern company. ...Swarm addiction wastes all good qualities."_

With these (and other) traits in view, Brother Adam makes arguably the most important and practically difficult observation surrounding his life's work, namely:

_"The main goal of all breeding is to achieve permanence."_

He continues by noting, _"... we aim in all our breeding efforts - as well as in beekeeping in general elimination of every possibility of chance, misfortune, etc., as far as this is practicable."_

While I think there are few beekeepers who would take issue with these precepts, it is thought-provoking to consider how one goes about developing and maintaining such goals in a sustainable way in one's local context and individual management goals.

He summarizes this concept (and the paradox therein) by opining:

_"Around 1918 a small brochure appeared in England with the title "Let the Bees Tell You" ... an inconspicuous but extremely practical treatise on beekeeping. The author pointed to the necessity not to prescribe anything to the bees - the bees should give us the decision in every question and give an answer.

In relation to my topic I would like to add: "Let the offspring examination and offspring comparisons decide". It is undoubtedly the safest way and the secret of any notable breeding success. Without constant testing and without repeated repetitions on the broadest basis, breeding the honeybee is with its many idiosyncrasies, a pretty hopeless game of chance."_


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## gww

russ


> That said (and if I understand correctly), I think this is why Riverderwent always leaves a 'base load' of honey stores that allows one to adjust their yearly surplus gathering to correspond to the seasonal variation without having to provide supplemental feed as a rule.


I am not speaking for riverderwent but think that he does not go though his hives to see what they have or weigh them. I believe he works by the box and just takes it for granted that if the fourth box is full of honey, he takes it, and takes for granted that everything below must be good.
If I am wrong on this I hope to be corrected.

I believe he is foundationless in his brood nest and uses foundation in his supers. I do not think he does any swarm control but more has just had bees that mostly are not swarming on him. He also uses queen excluders.

So it comes down to management differences and confidence in what the out come of those are.

The differences that cause confusion in my case (due to being too lazy to take the complete hive apart and count frames or weigh) in knowing what is in my hives based on my management are:

1. I am completely foundationless (with no extra comb for supers) and my swarm prevention consist of pulling brood frames up from lower boxes to start new boxes. 

2. When it comes time to pull honey, I have had brood in my supers at harvest time. This could mean that that is all that is in the hive and the two bottom could be empty or full and I don't want to look.

3. I have seen cases where the bees have moved the brood up due to my actions and still had honey below such brood. (I could come up with many reasons this might happen with one reason being the strength of the flow but also other reasons).

4. So if I have to move some frames around to get brood out of what I harvest but don't dig though the whole hive, the rest of the hive could be in a condition that I don't know even though I did know what honey I took. I would not know what I left.

5. My half baked answer to this due to me being too lazy to weigh or count honey and bee frames is to look at only the top box at around the first of oct and decide from what I see in that top box on what I might have to do to only take so much of a chance that they may have enough.

I know ways to be more sure that they have enough but am working on a low work imput way of just getting close. So far I have not made a fatal mistake but know the potential due to how I am doing it. My goal of course it to come up with systematic ways to keep bees with as little thinking as possible but only time will tell if I get it right and enough time has not passed yet for me to be sure.

I only write this to keep me and you thinking and not that I am right in any way cause I am sure I am not.
Cheers
gww

Ps So I guess the point I make is that when I pull brood to bait boxes, if a hive is not doing that well, the brood nest could just move up and that could be all there is in the hive cause they never got strong enough to start backfilling and force the brood nest to move back down and so taking it on faith with out looking could cause mistakes. I look much harder in the beginning of the season then I do around harvest time and so don't guage what I am taking and leaving but am managing by the box and judging prewinter by only the status of the top box as late as I can and still have time for adjustment. IE: 1st of oct.


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## AR1

I've been at this 4 years and every year is different. The first year the bees were storing honey right into early November and still had plenty left the next Spring.

Last year they made almost no honey all year (endless rain), barely enough to survive even with some feeding. Last Fall was the first time I needed to feed, and this winter I have sugar cakes on my hives or without a doubt they would have all starved by now.

The bees are right next to my house, 5 feet away from the back door and visible from where I sit now. Practically pets! Not going to let them starve, especially when part of the reason they are so low on food is that I split them twice last summer so they spent all year trying to catch up on population. Between me and the weather they had a tough year. A few pounds of sugar? I owe them that much.


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## gww

ar1
My first two years, I put sugar on whether they needed it or not. I was given several hundred pounds of sugar. However, I keep bees for what they can give me and not what I can give them. I would rather leave them some honey then to go buy sugar to feed them. My problem is being new enough that how they need is still hard for me to judge due to experience level. I am too cheep to have bees just so I can buy them things and too lazy to want to take a lot from them and then have to replace. In between all that is common sense and being able to notice when aberrations happen that are out of the ordinary. I would not want to lose bees due to weird things that they have to deal with but during normal times, I keep them for what I can get from them.

With free sugar, I did not care.
Me buying, I care.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I only write this to keep me and you thinking and not that I am right in any way cause I am sure I am not.
> 
> ...
> 
> I look much harder in the beginning of the season then I do around harvest time and so don't guage what I am taking and leaving but am managing by the box and judging prewinter by only the status of the top box as late as I can and still have time for adjustment. IE: 1st of oct.


GWW:

I enjoy the opportunity to consider these ideas and you seem to be making good decisions in your apiary.

I have always been drawn to the idea of 'management by box' and it seems like if one could hold off on harvesting any surplus until cooler weather sets-in you could strike a middle ground between the need for frame-by-frame manipulations and the need to supplementally feed (at least in unlimited broodnest applications). I recognize in saying this there will be colonies that might consume all their Spring stores during the Summer dearth, so this might not be the best approach in every circumstance.

The advantage is that come October 1st, one could give every box the heft test and harvest any excess off the top with little concern for brood and still have time enough to provide some heavy syrup if needed. I know there are downsides to this approach but it might fit for some situations.

I appreciate the banter. Best of success to you in the second half of Winter.

Russ


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Between me and the weather they had a tough year. A few pounds of sugar? I owe them that much.


AR1:

Good post. For what it is worth, I can identify with your perspective and wasn't suggesting not feeding colonies that need it. The discussion has centered around whether to supplementally feed overwintered colonies in the Fall as a rule and considering the implications of when and how much surplus to harvest if one wishes to minimize the need for supplemental feeding.

I sincerely hope your colonies are faring well this Winter, and good luck the rest of the way.

Russ


----------



## gww

russ


> The advantage is that come October 1st, one could give every box the heft test and harvest any excess off the top with little concern for brood and still have time enough to provide some heavy syrup if needed. I know there are downsides to this approach but it might fit for some situations.


Call me a baby but I find harvest stressful. This year I took my last honey from hives that still had 4 boxes on in early sept. I usually get some bees killed during harvest due to stirring them up pretty good. I usually put the wets back on for a few days and then pull them for storage unless I have a smaller split or something which still needs some comb for winter. After this I am usually shy of getting very deep into hives cause the bees are more wound up due to recent action and the fact that it would be a bad time to lose a queen with no time to recover. 

So around oct I will look in the top box of the few hives that I thought had the least honey when I pulled the supers. If they have mostly filled that box, I figure good and cross my fingers and hope for spring cause I am done for the year.

I am hoping that that is good enough.

River is a true by the box bee keeper and I may be too if I ever get enough supers drawn where all I need to do is add a box in spring. 

My first few years I did lift every box and try and judge weight but I am always trying to cut down steps with out going over the line.

I do change things up based on how I am feeling at the time but this is my goal of doing things till some feeling makes me think I need something more or less. 
One year I harvested on june 18 and believe every thing (flow wise) stopped from that point on. What is funny is it took me till sept last year to get the same amount of honey but apparently the flow lasted till first frost. 

So the over all plan is there but not perfect yet. River's is near perfect cause he is doing it purely by the box. IE: Nothing in the fourth box, he just takes off an empty super. He leaves the bottom brood nest alone.

In abby warre's book, if my memory is correct, he would take the top boxes down till he hit his target volume or till he hit brood. So, also by the box beekeeping.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> So around oct I will look in the top box of the few hives that I thought had the least honey when I pulled the supers. If they have mostly filled that box, I figure good and cross my fingers and hope for spring cause I am done for the year.
> 
> ...
> 
> I am hoping that that is good enough.
> 
> ...
> 
> So the over all plan is there but not perfect yet. River's is near perfect cause he is doing it purely by the box. IE: Nothing in the fourth box, he just takes off an empty super. He leaves the bottom brood nest alone.


Thanks, GWW. Your goal makes sense to me, and I assume you are making progress every year in getting more comb drawn out (and not destroyed by wax moths)? :lookout:

Seriously, whatever you are doing is working, so it's hard to argue against your approach.

I still have very little practical experience at this, but in the past two years I have observed colonies which are less than consistent in filling/curing boxes from the top down such that I have had to do some late season frame/box manipulations to get stores where they need to be.

I have also observed with very little exception (10 of 12 this year) and regardless of the overwintering volume (3,4 or 5 8-frame mediums) that most of the colonies I have start overwintering in the top box and basically stay there all Winter, moving down only as the season progresses and stores at the top are consumed.

If only the bees would read all the good information out there about 'management by the box' and follow-it I would be in great shape!


----------



## gww

russ


> I still have very little practical experience at this, but in the past two years I have observed colonies which are less than consistent in filling/curing boxes from the top down such that I have had to do some late season frame/box manipulations to get stores where they need to be.


Not to belabor the point (or beat a dead horse) but this is why it makes very much sense for my kind of bee keeping to eventually end up with what river does (with out the queen excluder, or with). Just always take it for granted that a hive with three mediums is good enough and take anything from the fourth box on. Let the bees manage the bottom three and yours is what is above. I am pretty sure that river is confident that if there is honey above his queen excluder, the bottom is already good. Believe it or not, I am more like you in worrying about what the bees are doing below.

I am just thinking to myself how nice it would be not to worry or think about it and just have confidence that the bees know what they are doing. Only doing it will eventually tell if the bees are consistent in having the brood nest good enough for winter and the excess above. 

So in the beginning, I have gotten in the hives quite often cause I had no basis to judge what was going on and no experience to compare what is normal and what is not. My goal in that was to get enough knowledge that I might get good enough at what was normal to be able to tell at a glance rather then having to dig and keep trying to learn and judge. I believe the goal is to get to where river is and have enough knowledge to tell the abnormal stuff that has to be addressed in special situations. In the beginning a lot of looking is required if we want to end up in the end of knowing with out having to look so hard. If that makes sense. I try and take others ways of doing things and pick the parts that make sense to me and then trying to see if it works in real life.

I don't know why I got hooked on this particular thought pattern but will quit pushing a point that you already know the ends and outs of with out my repeating it over and over. You don't have to answer every post cause I am not trying to work your typing fingers to death. I sometimes use your thread to type up my thinking for myself as typing sometimes keeps my mind on a subject to fix my own thinking more then communicate out info.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> You don't have to answer every post cause I am not trying to work your typing fingers to death. I sometimes use your thread to type up my thinking for myself as typing sometimes keeps my mind on a subject to fix my own thinking more then communicate out info.


GWW:

For what it is worth, I enjoy reading your thoughts and think you have a lot of valid things to say- so please always feel welcome to communicate your input on this thread. I have learned a great deal from the discussions here on Beesource, and I appreciate everyone who is willing to take the time to share their expertise with us rank amateurs...


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## Litsinger

Took time today to scrape and recover propolis from hive bodies and frames. I mixed it with pure grain alcohol to make a tincture. I found that the grain alcohol works much better than the isopropyl alchohol I used last year. 

I intend to utilize this solution to prime swarm traps and re-dose the two Russian Scions I made last year generally following the information contained in the following great post by DocBB:

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?303234-The-Russian-Scion

Here is a good video by Mr. Michael Bush explaining the general principle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18Bf6JKm_1Y


----------



## Riverderwent

gww said:


> Not to belabor the point (or beat a dead horse) but this is why it makes very much sense for my kind of bee keeping to eventually end up with what river does (with out the queen excluder, or with). Just always take it for granted that a hive with three mediums is good enough and take anything from the fourth box on. Let the bees manage the bottom three and yours is what is above. I am pretty sure that river is confident that if there is honey above his queen excluder, the bottom is already good.


Shear genius. Except every year about this time I convince myself that all my colonies must be dead because I don’t treat, and so many folks say that you have to use miticides or your bees will die. You guys make me nervous acting like I know what I’m doing.


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## gww

river...


> Except every year about this time I convince myself that all my colonies must be dead because I don’t treat, and so many folks say that you have to use miticides or your bees will die.


Me too.:thumbsup:
Cheers
gww


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## Juhani Lunden

Riverderwent said:


> Except every year about this time I convince myself that all my colonies must be dead because I don’t treat, and so many folks say that you have to use miticides or your bees will die.


Not me. I grew past that some years ago, but I know exactly what you mean.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Took time today to scrape and recover propolis from hive bodies and frames. I mixed it with pure grain alcohol to make a tincture. I found that the grain alcohol works much better than the isopropyl alchohol I used last year.
> 
> I intend to utilize this solution to prime swarm traps and re-dose the two Russian Scions I made last year generally following the information contained in the following great post by DocBB:
> 
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?303234-The-Russian-Scion
> 
> Here is a good video by Mr. Michael Bush explaining the general principle:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18Bf6JKm_1Y
> 
> View attachment 53303
> View attachment 53305
> View attachment 53307


Hi Russ,
do you have a ratio of Alcohol to propolis? With Grain Alcohol one could use it as a hive coating or use for health reasons


----------



## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> ou guys make me nervous acting like I know what I’m doing.


David: 

Whatever you are doing is working and seems to be sustainable, so that makes you an expert in my book. We appreciate your contributions on Beesource.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Russ,
> do you have a ratio of Alcohol to propolis? With Grain Alcohol one could use it as a hive coating or use for health reasons


Good question, Gray Goose. While I didn't measure it out precisely I would estimate that I ended up with a little more than a cup of propolis (in chips and chunks) and utilized a little less than a half a cup of grain alcohol. The resultant mixture when settled ended up having all the propolis in suspension with only very little alcohol on top with a viscosity similar to 5W motor oil. 

Before application, I might cut it further to aid in the application process (still thinking through that but considering using a spray bottle).

As you suggest, I think I might use it to prime the insides of all the new boxes I will use this season as well as dosing the scions in hopes they serve as a appealing bivouac location for a couple swarms instead of high up a tree. We'll see... 

As to it's medicinal qualities, I've never consumed it but if one can judge the benefit by the smell it has to be great for you .


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Good question, Gray Goose. While I didn't measure it out precisely I would estimate that I ended up with a little more than a cup of propolis (in chips and chunks) and utilized a little less than a half a cup of grain alcohol. The resultant mixture when settled ended up having all the propolis in suspension with only very little alcohol on top with a viscosity similar to 5W motor oil.
> 
> Before application, I might cut it further to aid in the application process (still thinking through that but considering using a spray bottle).
> 
> As you suggest, I think I might use it to prime the insides of all the new boxes I will use this season as well as dosing the scions in hopes they serve as a appealing bivouac location for a couple swarms instead of high up a tree. We'll see...
> 
> As to it's medicinal qualities, I've never consumed it but if one can judge the benefit by the smell it has to be great for you .


As to consuming it, maybe a bit with some Jagermeister?? more I was thinking of topical, like a disinfectant similar to the mecuricome used when younger. on a skin rash or a sliver, or something.

Ok thanks I'll start with 40 - 60 40% Grain Alcohol and 60% propolis chips, by weight and give a report back. I was looking for the consistency of thin paint. Your volume "estimate" sounded like 1/3 - 2/3 but there must be air space in the chip pile and I can always thin easier than thicken.
GG


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## Gray Goose

Ok Russ,
First pass on the manufacturing of the interior hive coating.







Basic list of stuff, Propolis, Grain Alcohol, scale , light measuring device (solo cup) final mix jar.

Here is the first batch.
I "started" at 40-60 ended up needing more liquid than one would initially think.
So there is 12 grams Propolis and 12 grams Grain Alcohol. which is close to 1/2 a Salsa jar








At first it did not seem to mix, but as I had the Propolis at 25 degrees in the shop and the Grain Alcohol was in the car, I found a slight warming speeds up dissolving. first process learning. 

If I can find time I'll coad some wood tonight.
GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Ok Russ,
> First pass on the manufacturing of the interior hive coating.
> 
> ...
> 
> If I can find time I'll coad some wood tonight.
> GG


Looks good, GG. I'll look forward to reading about how your application goes. How are you planning on putting it on? 

You going to imbibe in some while you apply it to the boxes to help keep you warm out in the garage?


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 7.	Breeding as a Means of Combating Disease


In wrapping-up my thoughts concerning _'Breeding the Honeybee'_, I wanted to post three principles that Brother Adam outlined on the theme of breeding as a means of combating disease. The first is thus:

Bees are equipped with innate mechanisms for disease resistance. He notes that, _“All living creatures are provided with the capacity of protecting themselves against disease.”_ [p.66]

In saying this, I accept the premise that the varroa mite is a new and novel pest to the European Honeybee and that it takes time (and maybe lots of it) for a stable host-parasite relationship to develop. The takeaway though is that EHB's are responding to this pest with whatever internal resources they have at their disposal.

Brother Adam continues, _“It is well known that in the battle against disease it is the wild forms of plants which play a decisive role.”_ [p. 115]

Here he is attempting to explain the balance we walk in our selection efforts- artificial selection seeks primarily consistency in traits, but may do so at the exclusion of other traits. On the other hand, natural selection seeks primarily survival, and definitely does so at the expense of consistency.

He finishes this thought by observing, _“It is obvious that we cannot breed resistant strains in areas where there is no disease nor where there is no positive comparisons with other colonies.”_ [p. 75]

Meaning a genetic population cannot develop (select for) disease resistance in the absence of disease. This is obviously a loaded statement and accepts that allowing a disease to progress unchecked may mean complete annihilation of a genetic population which cannot successfully select for resistance. 

I will deal next with Brother Adam's thoughts on whether the honeybee could be successfully bred for varroa resistance.


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## Gray Goose

Application Notes:
Had a new stack of stuff, consisting of a double NUC base to run a resource hive Palmer style, With lid, bottom, 2- 5 frame deeps and 2 -5 frame mediums,
And 2 innercovers.









I ended up just using a small brush.









Started with the base, the rough sawn oak did suck up the sauce, I will admit.









Did the lid 









Had enough to do the 2 deep and 2 medium NUC bodies as well, a bit lighter coat as I was getting down to the crumbs.







and 2 NUC lids.

The brush took a turn south, I am hoping to "clean" it with the Grain Alcohol from batch #2 I think the evaporation of the GA left the propolis on the bristles. Also had some "chunks" in the bottom of the jar, chewing them thoroughly proved my initial suspicitation, there was some Wax in the propolis hopper.

Also there was sufficient drippage, to warrant the painting of the outside first, as paint will likely not stick to a propolized surface. This I did not think of but was pleasantly surprised to have randomly done the correct order, Paint, then propolis tincture the interior.

So again this was appx 12 grams of GA and 12 Grams of Propolis, it could be thicker, but coverage would be less.
IMO this 50-50 weight ratio will sufficiently coat wood.

I would recommend it for a Swarm Trap, has a nice oder, may wish to coat it a week prior to the hanging of the trap to have the most olfactory impact.

Batch 01 complete.
I thought I had lots of propolis but could easily use 50-80 Grams a year on coating new stuff. I Will need to clean the supers remaining to gain another 100 grams.

GG

P.S. did not have a chance to Imbibe however the Idea was in the right place. One may need to pour the mix thru a coffee filter, for chunk free imbibing, unless thick with floaters is not something that would prevent you from trying it. A good mustache may just do the trick as well.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> P.S. did not have a chance to Imbibe however the Idea was in the right place. One may need to pour the mix thru a coffee filter, for chunk free imbibing, unless thick with floaters is not something that would prevent you from trying it. A good mustache may just do the trick as well.


Gray Goose:

Good update. I apologize for the delay in reply as I have been away from the computer. I laughed out loud as I read the above, and I do appreciate your report on your first pass at applying a propolis coating to new equipment. At least based on the visual result, I imagine this will make for better acceptance by the bees.

As I have thought through the method of application further, I am going to attempt to strain the tincture first and then add additional grain alcohol to it to make it the consistency of hairspray and then use a spritzer bottle to apply it to the interior of hive surfaces, etc.

Also, good advice about making sure to get the exterior painting completed first before treating the interior...


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Gray Goose:
> 
> Good update. I apologize for the delay in reply as I have been away from the computer. I laughed out loud as I read the above, and I do appreciate your report on your first pass at applying a propolis coating to new equipment. At least based on the visual result, I imagine this will make for better acceptance by the bees.
> 
> As I have thought through the method of application further, I am going to attempt to strain the tincture first and then add additional grain alcohol to it to make it the consistency of hairspray and then use a spritzer bottle to apply it to the interior of hive surfaces, etc.
> 
> Also, good advice about making sure to get the exterior painting completed first before treating the interior...


Spraying a filtered tincture should work fine. Diluting should also offer a greater coverage area. I now have a second batch dissolving and plan to coat some decoy hive interiors. I have found 2 dead outs here in my yard and 6 up north in the northern yard, So old comb and empty boxes will not be an issue this spring. So far for the winter started with 22 down 8 to 14 remaining. most of them appear to be mite dead outs. getting old to have every year be a recovery year. I may need to go to the dark side, not sure. 
GG


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## clong

Gray Goose said:


> So far for the winter started with 22 down 8 to 14 remaining. most of them appear to be mite dead outs. getting old to have every year be a recovery year. I may need to go to the dark side, not sure.
> GG


GG,

I hope you will keep on going. I'm at about 2/3 survival rate in my own yard the last couple of years. That is about the same rate as yours.

The bright spot is finding one line of bees that keeps on going. I have one line of bees that is now 6/7 over the last two winters. A mentee beekeeper is now 2/2 last year, and 3/3 this year with that line of bees.

Find the good ones and breed from them.

What survival rate would you consider acceptable?


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## Gray Goose

clong said:


> GG,
> 
> I hope you will keep on going. I'm at about 2/3 survival rate in my own yard the last couple of years. That is about the same rate as yours.
> 
> The bright spot is finding one line of bees that keeps on going. I have one line of bees that is now 6/7 over the last two winters. A mentee beekeeper is now 2/2 last year, and 3/3 this year with that line of bees.
> 
> Find the good ones and breed from them.
> 
> What survival rate would you consider acceptable?


Acceptable I would think is 50% or greater. I think I am able to split each survivor to make it back hive count wise. However the split does affect the Honey production so At some point, I am just spinning the wheels, create , loose, create, loose. The winter is not done yet  so this is just a first look, 2 yards I have not been to at all. I really hope the better bee will emerge but, some need to survive or this cannot even be done. I did note the 3 surviving out of 9 up north all had a brood break, As they were splits I had created. Maybe adding in a brood break to more hives would help, at some point the extra time it takes starts to be an issue as well. 2/3 surviving, I could do that, would put 1/3 into production ,and 1/3 into splitting. we will see, I have 3 somewhat promising lines. A feral swarm from last summer, looking really good, the 3 survivors are all the same line up north,, and the parent and 4 of 6 F1 daughters are also still going down here. So those lines, will be the targets of my attention this spring. Also am thinking of a late split Mel D type where I pull the honey early then split prior to winter, in Aug. Every loss so far is 1.5 year or older queens, so get more young queens and do more brood breaks. 5 of the 6 dead outs up north were 3 deeps, so the big ones do not seem to have an advantage, may as well make 2 medium size, out of those and see if that helps... Do have some ideas but cleaning out the nice producing hives is getting to be a bummer.
GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I may need to go to the dark side, not sure.


Gray Goose:

First off, I am sorry to hear that your overwintering efforts have been disappointing thus far. 

I do hope you are able to find a strategy that allows you to keep bees without treatments and still have an acceptable return on your investment.

That said, I would certainly understand if you ultimately determined that some sort of chemical intervention might be required in your situation. In such a case, I would expect that your TF efforts will provide you some unique perspective as to how to approach the treatment regime.

If nothing else, you could adopt the Randy Oliver model of carefully monitoring mite levels, treating only when necessary and breeding from the colonies which exhibit the most resistance promise year-over-year.



Gray Goose said:


> Every loss so far is 1.5 year or older queens, so get more young queens and do more brood breaks.


Alternatively, I recently watched a fascinating video from the National Honey Show (that I hope to summarize soon) which addressed studies of the efficacy of shook swarming, trapping and queen caging as alternative varroa management strategies. In short, when done correctly it suggested one might achieve results which are materially similar to standard chemical interventions.


----------



## Litsinger

Several new videos have been posted from the recently concluded 'National Honey Show' which are directly applicable to the general approach and ethos of local adaptation and its' implications for colony success.

On this theme, Mr. Jo Widdicombe, current President of the _Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders Association_ (BIBBA) presents a talk entitled, 'The Principles of Bee Improvement':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p0zjZDgCJY

It should be noted at the outset that Mr. Widdicombe comes from the perspective of an unabashed proponent of improvement and preservation of the remaining native British bee genetics, but his talk is more generally describing both the benefits and mechanics of local adaptation, couched in his own experience with AMM. His overarching message is thus:

Natural selection is one part of the story (survival), but artificial selection is the other part of the story (beneficial traits). Our efforts need to strike a balance between diversity and homogeneity to produce a population of bees which are both hearty and productive. He defines this paradigm thus, _"A community of bees should be sufficiently out-bred to be vigorous and disease-free, but sufficiently in-bred to remain true to type." _

He also makes the point (that MSL has already made many times) that breeder queens are key to our improvement efforts- not only as the base for your future queens but also for the drone mothers they become.


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## AR1

Gray Goose said:


> Acceptable I would think is 50% or greater. I think I am able to split each survivor to make it back hive count wise. However the split does affect the Honey production so At some point, I am just spinning the wheels, create , loose, create, loose.
> GG


Just my opinion, and a not very experienced one, but I wonder if that's just where we are and will stay? Treatment free is going to face higher losses than an experienced treating beekeeper will. The big guys can't risk the losses financially and simply have to treat. The one-two-hive guys have to treat or buy a new hive most every year. No choice either way and that ain't going to change.

Looking for space in between for the guy with 5-50 hives. Can we find a workable, reliable system that consistently allows us to enjoy our hobby and make enough honey to keep our spouses happy ? Without buying replacement bees every year or two?

Last year I started (restarted!) with one swarm in May and split to 5 hives by September. 4 remain alive, one starved out. Plan for this year is to split the surviving colonies and get 15-20. Winter with a bunch of these in nucs or smallish colonies and repeat, aiming for 20 going into winter, consistently. 

I can stand 50% losses as a hobbyist. Hopefully that is a bad year, and have significantly better results most years. So, splitting hard, making plenty of replacements, multiple brood breaks in at least some colonies that I hope to winter, and a few colonies allowed to grow and make honey.

To that end I am spending the winter making 5-frame deep nucs. I have 15. Along with my deep and medium boxes I can get to my 20, all going well. 

I am not anticipating any giant gains from genetics to change this calculation. Big guys will treat, little guys will get washed out, and hobbyists will be stuck in the middle having to come up with a program, treatment or not, that keeps the enjoyment in the hobby.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Gray Goose:
> 
> First off, I am sorry to hear that your overwintering efforts have been disappointing thus far.
> 
> I do hope you are able to find a strategy that allows you to keep bees without treatments and still have an acceptable return on your investment.
> 
> That said, I would certainly understand if you ultimately determined that some sort of chemical intervention might be required in your situation. In such a case, I would expect that your TF efforts will provide you some unique perspective as to how to approach the treatment regime.
> 
> If nothing else, you could adopt the Randy Oliver model of carefully monitoring mite levels, treating only when necessary and breeding from the colonies which exhibit the most resistance promise year-over-year.
> 
> 
> 
> Alternatively, I recently watched a fascinating video from the National Honey Show (that I hope to summarize soon) which addressed studies of the efficacy of shook swarming, trapping and queen caging as alternative varroa management strategies. In short, when done correctly it suggested one might achieve results which are materially similar to standard chemical interventions.


Hi Russ.
So for this comment "I do hope you are able to find a strategy that allows you to keep bees without treatments and still have an acceptable return on your investment." My "beeding" Apiary of 9 is down to 3 , and we have a month to go yet prior to any nice weather. So I am thinking I will have 2 hives remain.
I have to face that these are likely the "lucky" 2 as these last 3 had the brood break while the others did not. I see other TF keepers are "grafting" from 2 year old survivor queens. So the reality I face is I have Zero 2 year old queens in the breeding yard , A mile or 2 from this yard a new "bee club" has formed. I may go there to see where they are getting bees from but the influx of new bees apparently changed my land scape. I have some bees left but all are 8 month old queens from summer splits. As far as return on Investment This "hobby" has been a loss for several years running, IE there is no return. So I am up against buying bees which I really do not like or killing mites. The infamous rock and a hard place. 
So I understand the brood break, shook swarm, queen trapping, drone brood removal, and several other operations, but at some level this IS "treatment" And if I go there then to me OAV in the fall to get from 30-50% survival to 75% in not conceptually different. Fortunately I now have several places where I have bees so I plan to do different things at different yards, At least I can eliminate the buying of bees every year. Coming up with TF stock, we will need to wait and see. The far yards will be TF due to the travel time so I will have a proving ground. But to play at all one does need live bees. I appreciate your input and do enjoy reading your posts
GG


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## crofter

GG; I haven't followed every twist and turn here, so I might be asking what is already answered. Do you feel you are getting a high influx of other keepers mites in your locations? If so that is starting you off with a disadvantage that may be hard to overcome. I think isolation is at least partially an enabling factor in most truly treatment free experiences.

Just being in a far tougher wintering geography tilts the playing field for you too. Big difference in having ability to survive two months winter with the mites compared to needing a four or five month survivor bee. I think it is not the cold _per se_ but the length of mite exposure time without replacement brood. More damage to the fat body reserves that the nurse bees need to produce the first rounds of do or die brood for the new season.

Optimism for the development of local adaptation has to be within the realm of the possible.


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## Gray Goose

crofter said:


> GG; I haven't followed every twist and turn here, so I might be asking what is already answered. Do you feel you are getting a high influx of other keepers mites in your locations? If so that is starting you off with a disadvantage that may be hard to overcome. I think isolation is at least partially an enabling factor in most truly treatment free experiences.
> 
> Just being in a far tougher wintering geography tilts the playing field for you too. Big difference in having ability to survive two months winter with the mites compared to needing a four or five month survivor bee. I think it is not the cold _per se_ but the length of mite exposure time without replacement brood. More damage to the fat body reserves that the nurse bees need to produce the first rounds of do or die brood for the new season.
> 
> Optimism for the development of local adaptation has to be within the realm of the possible.


You got it correct. "within the realm of the possible" Seems a lot of new keepers in the area. It Was Isolated so I had some initial good results. The dead outs I have processed so far are Mite filled. So with the long winter , it is a somewhat double whammy. really depends on what is left in the spring. If the last 3 perish, I may just leave that place set, till mid summer , no use bringing in more bees if the yard already has mites in a couple stragglers.
GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I appreciate your input...


Gray Goose:

The feeling is mutual, and I have learned much from your helpful input along the way. Thank you.

I do appreciate the genetic situation you are in and I am certain I would (and maybe will?) consider implementing many of the strategies you are discussing if I were (or find myself) in your shoes.

I suppose the only other option you could consider would be the importation of close-mated queens and a strategy of regular queen renewals until the prospect of a resistant genetic base manifests itself?

Regardless, I do hope you will continue to have the luxury of experimenting with various treatment and/or chemical-free approaches to see if there is a sustainable approach that will work both in your area and in support of your management goals.

Also, I depend upon you to keep me from running off the rails down here, so I do hope you will continue to post your experienced insights when I am planning on doing something ill-advised!


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I will deal next with Brother Adam's thoughts on whether the honeybee could be successfully bred for varroa resistance.


In a 1991 _American Bee Journal_ article entitled 'An Inescapable Challenge', Brother Adam looked into the future of bee breeding and concluded, _"On the basis of the findings and experience gained in breeding the honey bee since 1916; also the knowledge acquired to the genetic possibilities at hand, I feel confident that in the course of time a honey bee fully and effectively resistant to the Varroa mite can be developed."_

He based this assertion on at least two tenants:

1. Biological lifeforms in general demonstrate internal genetic mechanisms and adaptive responses to external pressure which promote survival.

Brother Adam notes, _“It is now generally recognized that breeding plays a determining role in the fight against disease in both the animal and plant world.” _[p. 66]

2. His own experiences with the tracheal mite gave first-hand experience with the genetic possibilities for disease resistance.

_“I have no hesitation in setting out my experiences about the possibility of breeding as a means of combating disease.”_ [p. 68]

Succinctly, Brother Adam saw careful selective breeding as the key to unlocking latent genetic responses to the varroa mite. He hypophorically observes:

_“Is it possible to combat diseases of the honeybee by means of selective breeding? I am able to give an unqualified affirmative.”_ [p. 76]


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## BigBlackBirds

GG
Concentrate on what you already know.

1) Brood Breaks. in general have some benefit. in good years seems that large % of folks with bees can get by just performing a break. Downside is that the mite cycle does usually catch up and eventually takes out a good % of bees if this is the only strategy in use.

i'd say experiment with 2 breaks and see how it goes. i have done so a little and didnt see initial benefit. BUT wouldnt write it off until i had done it over many seasons with a substantial colony count. 

one natural downside of 2 breaks is that one can end up occurring in fall. i do have lots of experience with august/september mated queens and none of that is good. but if thats the only way you can keep them alive you may still want to do it


2) young queens generally win the mite war relative to older queens. i only look to keep a percentage after the 2nd winter as drone mothers or breeders. it probably would make sense to keep larger % of older ones for a gene selection pool but when the options are limited by equipment resources i've found it more useful to keep the young ones as you know they will survive at high rate given they were made into nuc and got that brood break.

3) its only getting tougher and tougher to find isolation. the colony count has become pretty high in the state. even if you can straddle the areas where the big outfits are, there is someone with a backyard package behind every tree. if you dont have the colony count to get some control on your environment, you probably gotta concentrate on constant addition of known quantities like your russians.


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## Litsinger

I recently had the opportunity to watch the excellent four-part video series currently being discussed over on MSL’s _‘A Shift in Message?’ _thread.

Mr. Ralph Büchler, Director of the bee research department at the Bee Institute in Kirchhain, Germany presents a broad-reaching and biologically-driven treatise on selection for varroa resistance.

While I can’t hope to do the videos any justice in a single post, here are a few of the most thought-provoking concepts presented in each video:

Varroa Resistance Characters and Selection Protocols (Part 1 of 4)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwuR3uMkMF0&t=2231s

1. Bee breeding approach and management concept have to go hand-in-hand.

2. Resistance is not a single character response. It is much more complex (attached image).

3. The most important factors are likely behavioral (i.e. hygienic responses).

4. The single-most important factor may be SMR (suppressed mite reproduction). Mite reproductive success is on average 80-90% in standard stock and 50-60% in resistant stock.

Environmental Adaptation of Honey Bees (Part 2 of 4)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DVm_L7Fkqc

1. Local adaptation is crucial (2x better survival than imported stock).

2. Colony health and vitality should be top selection criteria.

3. The beekeeper is the single-most important environmental factor. 

Sustainable Varroa Management (Part 3 of 4)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuJlgzcQWAg&t=7s

1. A 10% brood infestation is the threshold where it becomes critical to most colonies.

2. Appropriately-timed artificial brood breaks showed statistically-equal varroa control efficacy as compared to standard chemical paradigms. Side-by-side mite development graphs are presented starting at the 53:00 mark.

3. Colonies with inherent resistance in non-treated settings have an outsized impact on the regional gene pool due to their ability to successfully raise healthy drones.

Understanding Bee Colony Biology (Part 4 of 4)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mC9R1e-tn4

1. A healthy colony left to its own devices might produce 2 queens in a year versus 20,000 drones- natural selection is impelled by drones.

2. Disease is the main driver of selection.

3. Colony health is not defined by the absence of disease but rather by a stable balance.

4. Our management efforts should seek to support disease antagonists (i.e. bacteria and other parasites) which co-exist symbiotically with honeybees.


----------



## Gray Goose

BigBlackBirds said:


> GG
> Concentrate on what you already know.
> 
> 1) Brood Breaks. in general have some benefit. in good years seems that large % of folks with bees can get by just performing a break. Downside is that the mite cycle does usually catch up and eventually takes out a good % of bees if this is the only strategy in use.
> 
> i'd say experiment with 2 breaks and see how it goes. i have done so a little and didnt see initial benefit. BUT wouldnt write it off until i had done it over many seasons with a substantial colony count.
> 
> one natural downside of 2 breaks is that one can end up occurring in fall. i do have lots of experience with august/september mated queens and none of that is good. but if thats the only way you can keep them alive you may still want to do it
> 
> 
> 2) young queens generally win the mite war relative to older queens. i only look to keep a percentage after the 2nd winter as drone mothers or breeders. it probably would make sense to keep larger % of older ones for a gene selection pool but when the options are limited by equipment resources i've found it more useful to keep the young ones as you know they will survive at high rate given they were made into nuc and got that brood break.
> 
> 3) its only getting tougher and tougher to find isolation. the colony count has become pretty high in the state. even if you can straddle the areas where the big outfits are, there is someone with a backyard package behind every tree. if you dont have the colony count to get some control on your environment, you probably gotta concentrate on constant addition of known quantities like your russians.


BBB you are on target on every point.
1)All of what is left for me this year, had a major brood break, most were splits waiting on a Queen to hatch and mate.
2)This year unlike last year, every once wintered queen is gone, only the new ones are left, Last 2 or 3 winters I have had similar survival rates for 1.5 year old and .5 year old queens. I have used the 2 year surviving queen to split from as I had hoped they were "better" I was looking at long life as a good trait
3)Isolation ,,That is the truth, more back yard keepers popping up every year.

I watched the presentation of Ralph Büchler at the England meeting and , seems some things to try around the brood breaks. (3 of 4)
So In your opinion what is the issues with the late Queen mating, prevalence of package Drones or the lack of flow , heat ?
In michigan what is the last week you use for "mating" before the quality starts to dip?
Thanks for the comments
GG


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## Gray Goose

Thanks Russ for the cliff notes, hopefully enough of a tease to prompt folks to watch
I would recommend folks just watch them with an open mind, some bee characteristics , built up for centuries are discussed and the way to "work in Harmony" with the natural cycle, Might be,, not allowing the swarming,, is "Treatment" 
Do take the time to watch.

GG


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## BigBlackBirds

i think its not having enough appropriate age drones. maybe result of the dearth periods in summer when they curtail drone production? but just speculation on my part.

to me the dip seems to start in august but by time hit late august i really dont want to be in position of needing to keep anything mated then. however, if it was what needed to do to winter, could make it work.


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## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Also, pages 407 and 408 of the book 'Bee Genetics and Breeding' (Edited by Thomas E. Rinderer), there is a good discussion of the use of both Line Breeding and Hybrid Breeding in the Carnica and the Buckfast:


He quotes Rothenbuhler on page 408:
"Any stock improvement program that is expected to give practical results for beekeeping industries must have three components:
- field tests under natural conditions
- geneticists making genetic decisions
- commercial production of the improved stock."


VSH breeders must evaluate their work "under natural conditions", that is: without treatments. 





P.S.
I got my book from Amazon some time ago and was just wondering because it is a library book. Is it common practice to make some kind of markings when a book is removed from library use? In Finland they always get stamped "removed from library use". In this copy there is nothing? Or am I holding stolen property? 
The W.R. Banks Library Prairie View A&M University Libraries, Prairie View Texas TI446


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## msl

Yes, but the TF "field test" is very, very common among TF beekeepers....:lpf:
the other 2 points on the list are what is holding things back. 


> genetics making genetic decisions


 the quote should read "geneticists making genetic decisions" geneticists as in people, "The hand of Man" as Brother Adam put it


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## Gray Goose

Juhani Lunden said:


> He quotes Rothenbuhler on page 408:
> "Any stock improvement program that is expected to give practical results for beekeeping industries must have three components:
> - field tests under natural conditions
> - genetics making genetic decisions
> - commercial production of the improved stock."
> 
> 
> VSH breeders must evaluate their work "under natural conditions", that is: without treatments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.
> I got my book from Amazon some time ago and was just wondering because it is a library book. Is it common practice to make some kind of markings when a book is removed from library use? In Finland they always get stamped "removed from library use". In this copy there is nothing? Or am I holding stolen property?
> The W.R. Banks Library Prairie View A&M University Libraries, Prairie View Texas TI446


Juhani, You could call the library and ask, if stolen send it back, read it first IMO.  Many data and books are online now, in general Libraries are winding down. At times Estates offer the book collections from folks who passed away to libraries. In a time segment say 1 year, all books not checked out from the donation are auctioned off. Libraries have space constraints. Some one buys a pallet of books and doles them out on Amazon for a few buck each. I would think it is a common practice to mark the book but who knows , good help is hard to find......
GG


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## BigBlackBirds

I am curious what has been happening with breeder material in recent times on vsh bees. i know the history of how they got to current point but i'm guessing a certain percentage are following along field tests line but part are likely also being selected under laboratory conditions.


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## Juhani Lunden

msl said:


> the quote should read "geneticists


Yes, you are right, my typo.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I would think it is a common practice to mark the book but who knows , good help is hard to find......
> GG


Often the used books we buy at our local 'Friends of the Library' booksale are stamped 'Discard' on the edge, but almost as often they are not.


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## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> VSH breeders must evaluate their work "under natural conditions", that is: without treatments.


Juhani:

Thank you for your helpful feedback. I sincerely appreciate it. I expect that your breeding operation materially addresses these three fundamentals.

This also serves as a good segue into wrapping-up a final thought from Brother Adam concerning breeding for resistance.



Litsinger said:


> _“Is it possible to combat diseases of the honeybee by means of selective breeding? I am able to give an unqualified affirmative.”_ [p. 76]


I would understand Brother Adam to believe that careful cross-breeding of honeybee subspecies would be the key to ultimately unlocking a genetic answer to the varroa (and any other nascent) threat.

He notes, _“… the decisive role in this fight_ [against disease] _is in every case provided by select racial crosses.” _[p. 67] 

But what does this look like? Here is where it gets difficult.

From 'An Inescapable Challenge':

_"This form of breeding_ [racial cross-breeding] _has since the beginning of time — in regard to all sections of animate creation — been Nature's way of developing more vigorous genetically endowed races and strains, to supplant those that failed to match a particular exigency, according to her maxim of “the survival of the fittest”, within the limits of the genetic potentialities at her disposal. Her endeavors were of necessity restricted to her more immediate facilities, whereas the modem bee-breeder has a worldwide choice at his command. It was likewise Nature's sole facility of combating every kind of disease. The honey bee proved in no case an exception.

However, cross-breeding as here envisioned, as the exclusive means of securing a fully efficient genetically based resistance to Varroa jacobsoni calls for a whole series of exceptional measures, without which any attempt at a task of this kind can be regarded as futile from the very outset. Indeed, I believe very few beekeeping establishments have at their disposal the essential facilities for a task of this magnitude. This is not based on an assumption, but on a lifetime of practical experience.

On the other hand, as we have found, a properly conducted scheme of crossbreeding can reveal genetic possibilities of which we had no inkling before at any time. 

A practical instance will make this clear. From a cross between a queen of our strain mated to French black drones we secured in the F-3 a new color break we had never seen before. Moreover, though the French black strain was extremely aggressive, we nevertheless secured a new combination which proved by far the most good-tempered bees known to us. Also, this combination proved to be practically immune to the tracheal mite, notwithstanding the fact that the French breeder was extremely susceptible to this disease. In fact, of 12 colonies headed by French sister queens, only two survived. The 10 that died perished in the middle of the summer. 

However, to secure these results we had to raise no less than 1,200 queen cells of which only 200 queens, on emerging, were retained. These were mated to handpicked drones. Following a full year's test in a normal honey-producing colony, two breeders were chosen of the original 1,200 virgin queens. 

Apart from the case cited, we also found that crossbreeding, based on Mendelian findings, presents as yet a virtually unexplored section of modern beekeeping. The reasons are obvious._

If understood correctly, I take this to mean that Brother Adam expected that a genetic answer to the varroa mite could be created but that such a result would require extensive and sophisticated selective breeding on a magnitude sufficient to develop a critical mass of resistant genetic profiles that could be sustained.

For my part, I continue to be hopeful (yet realistic) about the prospect that Nature herself is a sufficiently broad and sophisticated mechanism of unlocking these traits. Time will tell.


----------



## msl

BigBlackBirds said:


> I am curious what has been happening with breeder material in recent times on vsh bees.


Lately the focus is on field tests, let the mites build up, those that have low mite counts have strong VSH trait's 

"The average mite resistance of randomly selected colonies with outcrossed queens would be expected to lie midway between the VSH and Control parents, as has been seen in prior studies (Harbo and Harris 2001; Danka et al. 2011). However, mite resistance in Pol-line bees was much closer to that of the VSH parent. The good response to V. destructor in the Pol-line population presumably arose because some queens mated with drones from relatively mite-resistant colonies in the local area, and our selection of the best performing colonies identified some of those that derived from these favorable matings. The selection we used (i.e., finding colonies with low end-of-season mite infestations) proved to be useful in lieu of the technically difficult measurements (i.e., measuring rates of hygienic removal of mite-infested brood or percentages of reproducing mites) needed to directly select for high expression of VSH. The technical methods are not well suited for use by commercial bee breeders. Our production of Pol-line honey bee stock using industry-appropriate methods may encourage adoption and further selection of mite-resistant bees with desirable beekeeping characteristics. We note however that the year-to-year and beekeeper-to-beekeeper variation in infestations underscores a need for vigilance when managing V. destructor even in bees with good mite resistance. Furthermore, we would expect rapid diminishment of resistance if Pol-line queens supersede and mate with less resistant bees in production settings.." 

Danka (2015) , Selection of VSH-derived Pol-line honey bees and evaluation of their Varroa -resistance characteristics https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFil...1-600/548-Danka--Selection of VSH-derived.pdf


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> However, mite resistance in Pol-line bees was much closer to that of the VSH parent.


MSL:

Great information. I was unaware of the 'Pol-line' moniker, so I looked it up and it looks like (based on the cited paper) that, _"The selected population was
given the name 'Pol-line Hygienic Italian honey bees' when breeding material was first distributed in 2011 by Glenn Apiaries (Fallbrook, California)."_

Understanding that the Glenns retired some time ago, I wondered what the current status of this project was. 

From the Harbo Bee Company website, I came across this, which seems to corroborate what I think the research is suggesting:

_"A valuable feature of VSH is that bees will express a high level of mite resistance when a colony contains as little as 50% of the alleles for VSH. A simple way to produce such a colony is to raise daughter queens from a VSH breeder and allow the daughters to naturally mate. This is good news for queen producers. They can rear VSH queens, mate them to any drones, and those queens will produce colonies that require no chemical control for varroa. Another benefit is that beekeepers can have mite resistant colonies without destroying their existing bee populations --populations which may be well adapted to certain locales or have desirable beekeeping qualities."_

Also, Mr. Harbo has included the following on his website which seems to go right along with what you have been talking about doing:

_"We will also begin the process of setting up a cooperative VSH breeding program, the objectives are (1) to get more queen producers involved with selection and (2) establish a robust and sustainable bee population that is constantly being selected to have the desired beekeeping qualities, foremost of which is varroa resistance. We haven’t worked out the details but it may look something like this: send breeding stock to one member and receive stock from another, each year sending and receiving stock from different members. Exchanging stock in the form of virgin queens is probably the simplest, but we are open to suggestions on all aspects of this."_

Finally, I noted that VP Queen Bees now offers a VSH Pol-line 2.2 strain- wonder what the back story is on this one?

https://vpqueenbees.com/vp-breeding-program/breeding-strains


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## BigBlackBirds

_"We will also begin the process of setting up a cooperative VSH breeding program, the objectives are (1) to get more queen producers involved with selection and (2) establish a robust and sustainable bee population that is constantly being selected to have the desired beekeeping qualities, foremost of which is varroa resistance. We haven’t worked out the details but it may look something like this: send breeding stock to one member and receive stock from another, each year sending and receiving stock from different members. Exchanging stock in the form of virgin queens is probably the simplest, but we are open to suggestions on all aspects of this."_


with hindsight being 20/20, i would have never supported giving the vsh parent stock to the USDA in the first place


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## msl

I don't under stand your point?


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## Litsinger

We have definitely turned the corner here in Western Kentucky. While we still have some cold weather in the forecast, all the colonies have kicked into high gear in their pollen gathering efforts.

The three strongest colonies in terms of population and foraging strength are:

#1803- a 2018 hived swarm (swarmed in 2019): https://youtu.be/WO3aoKHb6R0

#1903- a 2019 overwintered colony inherited from a neighbor (swarmed in 2019): https://youtu.be/JiivwCMPMJo

#1912- a late 2019 trap-out (heavily fed): https://youtu.be/qgJ-JLL7W-I

The weakest colony is #1911 (the 2019 'office' trap-out) with about three frames of bees.

#1905 has made good progress in hauling-out the Mountain Camp feeding.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Spraying a filtered tincture should work fine. Diluting should also offer a greater coverage area.


Gray Goose:

Alright, I finally got around to applying the propolis tincture. My experiment with the spray bottle was a big fail as I got about three squirts out before the tube got occluded- so I had to go back to the manual method of applying with a paper towel.

In an effort to conserve resources, I decided to apply the tincture only to the interiors of brand new hive bodies and wiped it on only until achieving a light patina- but they sure smell good...


----------



## Litsinger

Yesterday's high near 70 degrees F afforded a great opportunity to take a quick peek inside the colonies to see how they were doing.

Knock on wood, still 12 for 12, but also still plenty of opportunity for a late Winter failure here.

Currently, all colonies are foraging as heavily as their internal resources (and weather) will allow, though the dandelion and hen bit are only blooming sporadically thus far.

A few interesting observations:

1. Foraging intensity doesn't necessarily correlate with cluster size- #1803 is arguably the most productive forager currently, but is definitely not the largest cluster. That prize goes to #1909, who is already drawing out fresh wax on the screened inner cover and storing fresh nectar. Interestingly, they showed a proclivity to draw on the inner cover last year too, even with ample empty volume below.

2. The 'office' hive (#1911) is definitely the smallest cluster- While certainly not as small as the 'micro cluster' I found with #1804 last Winter, they appear to have come through in much more ragged shape than I anticipated. At this juncture I don't anticipate offering them any help, but will simply observe to see what they can do on their own.

3. #1905 appears to now appreciate the 'Mountain Camp' feeding- I noticed last week that they seemed to be taking advantage of the feed so I added a bit more directly above the cluster (centered to the far right of the box) and it appears they have consumed most all of it. I intend to continue to feed them until nectar becomes consistently available. They are otherwise foraging fairly intensely and I am guardedly optimistic about this colony despite the poor job I did in helping them close-out last season. 

Otherwise, I have been spending my spare hours putting together a few more hive stands and getting swarm traps ready. 

When I have some more time, I'll follow with my 2020 apiary goals.


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## gww

Hey russ
My success does not seem so impressive to you now that you are surpassing it does it.

On 1909 and the empty space below. Is there any comb there. If not, the bees may not recognize it as space. I am a big fan of moving a comb to empty boxes. One with brood is best in my mind.

Either way, looking good.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> On 1909 and the empty space below. Is there any comb there. If not, the bees may not recognize it as space. I am a big fan of moving a comb to empty boxes. One with brood is best in my mind.


Good point, GWW. While I am loathe to ever interfere with the integrity of the nest, I may very well need to do so with #1909.

I do appreciate your kind wishes- as you correctly pointed out on your thread, time is the great equalizer... so I will forego making any definitive judgments about overall success or failure of the TF experiment until I have at least as many years at it as you do.


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## Litsinger

First drones on the wing today in Western Kentucky- #1905 and #1909.


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## Litsinger

I recently received a quarterly newsletter from Dr. Leo Sharashkin, who curates the Horizontal Hive website.

He currently maintains approximately 40 colonies in Horizontal Layens hives in a treatment-free model and reported 100% winter survival this past year.

Having heard a bit about him and knowing that he is located at approximately the same latitude that I am, I was curious as to what his background was.

In short, he was awarded a SARE grant in 2015 to evaluate the viability of local feral swarms in the Missouri Ozarks as an extension of a home apiary project he started in 2013:

https://projects.sare.org/sare_project/fnc15-1013/

As a function of this grant, two (2) SARE videos were produced:

Local Honey Bee Strains and Feral Swarms

Propagating Wild Bees

Succinctly, his message can be summarized by a quote by Georges de Layens who wrote: _“Pick the hive model that is best suited to your locale, populate it with local bees, and the results will speak for themselves.” _

Dr. Sharashkin notes in the 'Local Strains' video that 80% of his hived swarms from 2013 were still alive at the time of the presentation (2017) and that he has an average 90% survival rate year-over-year.

I am interested in anecdotes like this because there seem to be decidedly mixed results in many TF experiments when judged over a longer time horizon.


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## GregB

> I am interested in anecdotes like this because there seem to be decidedly mixed results in many TF experiments when judged over a longer time horizon.


For sure my documented personal experience demonstrates so far, I have it dramatically different here from the Ozarks - in my Northern suburbia, full of "bee-loving" people.
The annual dump of the imported bees has just began (fortunately, some "Russians" are for sale again this year).


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> For sure my documented personal experience demonstrates so far, I have it dramatically different here from the Ozarks ...


GregV:

Good to hear from you. I for one am glad you are continuing to experiment with TF. It seems plain to me that isolation plays a big (and maybe fundamental) role in inherent resistance, closed-mating approaches aside.

Thinking of your situation and Russian bees, have you ever considered 'importing' in a few mated queens to see how they might hold up?

It looks like there are a couple of breeders regional to you, and I heard good things about Manley's bees in particular:

http://www.russianbreeder.org/manley-bigalk.html (Cresco, IA)

http://www.russianbreeder.org/doug--shawn-way.html (South Bend, IN)


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## JWChesnut

Litsinger said:


> I recently received a quarterly newsletter from Dr. Leo Sharashkin, who curates the Horizontal Hive website.
> 
> He currently maintains approximately 40 colonies in Horizontal Layens hives in a treatment-free model and reported 100% winter survival this past year.


My opinion is not a single one of this motley band of "for-profit" gurus who are making their living promoting their miracle methods should be believed without verifiable independent confirmation. There is simply way too much documented fraud in the folks selling "happy stories" to the guillible newbees that want to believe their stories.


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## Litsinger

JWChesnut said:


> ... without verifiable independent confirmation.


JW:

Thank you for your post. I always appreciate your perspective.

For what it is worth, I too tend to approach anything from a sales angle with a skeptical eye. 

Hopefully there will be more academic research in the area of US local adaptation forthcoming. 

In the meantime I suppose it remains 'buyer beware'.


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## AR1

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Thinking of your situation and Russian bees, have you ever considered 'importing' in a few mated queens to see how they might hold up?
> 
> It looks like there are a couple of breeders regional to you, and I heard good things about Manley's bees in particular:


I would love to try Russian queens, but am fundamentally opposed to paying money for anything. 
If Russians are markedly 'better' then the genetics will spread like crazy, like how Africanized bees spread down south. Then we will all have Russian bees without even knowing it.
So far, my 4 hives are alive and flying around on warm days. No treatments but were split twice last summer.


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> I would love to try Russian queens, but *am fundamentally opposed to paying money for anythin*g.
> If Russians are markedly 'better' then the genetics will spread like crazy, like how Africanized bees spread down south. Then we will all have Russian bees without even knowing it.
> So far, my 4 hives are alive and flying around on warm days. No treatments but were split twice last summer.


Same here.
Not buying - the fundamentals of my approach.
Buying only serves one urge - quick satisfaction (same as drugs; which then is asking for a repeat).
They will come to me.


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## JWPalmer

Russ, I suppose when it comes to bees, 'caveat emptor" is a phrase we all should keep in mind. From the newest miracle bee to the type of hive we use, the best thing these "innovations" do is separate the gullible from their money. Reminds be of the micacle weight loss pills. Buy these pills from me and watch the fat melt away with no exercise. Yeah, right. Beekeeping takes work, just like weight loss. Maybe I should write a book, "How to Work Hard and Keep Your Bees Alive". I doubt that it would sell well.


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## AR1

JWPalmer said:


> Reminds be of the micacle weight loss pills. Buy these pills from me and watch the fat melt away with no exercise.


Took care of a lady (I'm a nurse) with a bad heart. Doctors couldn't figure out why a 30-something woman had a heart that bad. One of the nurses went back through her old charts and discovered that she had been taking diet pills for 10 YEARS! Amphetamines. Pro tip: Don't take diet pills, meth or cocaine if you want to keep your heart.


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## Juhani Lunden

AR1 said:


> Took care of a lady (I'm a nurse) with a bad heart. Doctors couldn't figure out why a 30-something woman had a heart that bad. One of the nurses went back through her old charts and discovered that she had been taking diet pills for 10 YEARS! Amphetamines. Pro tip: Don't take diet pills, meth or cocaine if you want to keep your heart.


:thumbsup:

Is she better now?


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I would love to try Russian queens, but am fundamentally opposed to paying money for anything.





GregV said:


> Not buying - the fundamentals of my approach.


Thank you for your feedback, AR1 and GregV.

You'll get no argument from me on this point- I am a real miser myself.

Good luck to you both in the coming season.

Russ


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## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> Maybe I should write a book, "How to Work Hard and Keep Your Bees Alive". I doubt that it would sell well.


Good analogy, JW. I appreciate your feedback. Maybe the sequel could be titled, "Beekeeping: Perfect for those who Love Work and Hate Money".

Best of success with your beekeeping efforts this season- and good luck with the walk-away splits. Here's hoping all the queens are in the boxes you wanted them in.

Russ


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## msl

> Not buying - the fundamentals of my approach.





> I would love to try Russian queens, but am fundamentally opposed to paying money for anything.


I totally get that,been there
but I would suggest "buying better bees " was beekeeping 101 3k years ago, and little has changed now
Tel Rehov, shows us this from 3k years ago , the "Italian bee" revolution shows it in our past, and Webster/Comfort shows us this in the present in the TF context


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## GregB

msl said:


> .....I would suggest "buying better bees " ......


The issue is I am yet to see a "better bee" for my exact location.
Massive dump of "Russian bee" derivatives could be a good approach to create our local "better bee".

But most beeks have been spoiled with the Italian/Carni mildness and keep importing these (with predictable annual die off).
Heavy annual dilution here by the pollination by-product seem to be trumping most all TF efforts.


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## AR1

Juhani Lunden said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Is she better now?


No way to know. Once out patients leave hospital we don't see them again until they get sick again. At her age, if she avoided smoking, alcohol and drugs she would have a good chance of recovering much of her heart function.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> When I have some more time, I'll follow with my 2020 apiary goals.


Here on the first full day of Spring, the forage landscape is beginning to really expand here in Western Kentucky.

Thankfully it appears that all twelve colonies from last year are going to pull through so I continue to plan and work towards my goals for 2020, which are generally as follows:

1. Continue to have fun- In this my third season of beekeeping as an adult, I still find it intellectually-satisfying and rewarding. I hope beekeeping never becomes a chore.

2. Expand the apiary count to 20- I have 12 swarm traps out and continue to approach my efforts from the mindset that I am in expansion mode.

3. Continue experimenting with systematic comb renewal- I may be tilting at proverbial windmills, but I am going to give the 'Rose Hive Method' a go this year and see what happens.

4. Make up two nucs for overwintering- I am still real fuzzy about the how and the when best suited for my locale. Might try using swarm cells if I find any this Spring and then work to stave off swarming- giving them plenty of time to get well-established for Winter.

5. Harvest a little honey- I have been sharing all the excess with new swarms the past two years and expect to do so again this year... but I am beginning to be embarrassed to tell people that I haven't bottled any honey yet... need to siphon off enough to maintain my dignity.


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## gww

Don.t worry about you dignity, unlike most, you are a doer and not just a talker. That is enough to be proud of and the rest will come.
Good luck
Cheers
gww

Ps 20 hives is a far cry from 6. A rose hive seems to be a square lang managed like a warre.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> A rose hive seems to be a square lang managed like a warre.


GWW:

Thank you for your encouragement- I sincerely appreciate it- you've been a big help to me.

Regarding the Rose Hive Method, you are correct that it is one-sized hive body managed in in many respects like a Warre. 

The aspect of Rose Hive management that I am going to try is the idea of bisecting the brood nest by introducing an empty box between two active brood boxes for the purposes of getting the colony to draw-out whole boxes of fresh wax at a time- we'll see how this works with all 8-frame medium Langs.

Thanks again for your kind feedback and good luck to you this season.


----------



## Litsinger

Yesterday I completed the 48-hour hive drop counts for all the colonies with SBB's with a little help from two of my daughters- one served as stenographer and the other as a second set of eyes as she can see much better than me. 

I told them I would pay them a dollar each to help out, and they quickly responded saying I needed to pay both of them a dollar for every mite we found. We settled on a dollar a mite, splitting the proceeds 50/50.

While I think it is far too early to draw any kind of conclusions from these data, it is interesting to observe that there seems to be no discernible pattern this year versus last year.

What may develop is an understanding that taking mite drops at the same date each season may not be as informative as possibly taking them at the same status of colony development (i.e. at the equivalent of 6 frames of brood).

That said, the colonies are ahead of where they were this time last year, so I would have expected the mite drops to be higher due to increased brood-rearing.

In summation- I don't know what I am doing, and don't know what to make of what I am recording :scratch:.


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## jonsl

Litsinger said:


> GWW:
> 
> Thank you for your encouragement- I sincerely appreciate it- you've been a big help to me.
> 
> Regarding the Rose Hive Method, you are correct that it is one-sized hive body managed in in many respects like a Warre.
> 
> The aspect of Rose Hive management that I am going to try is the idea of bisecting the brood nest by introducing an empty box between two active brood boxes for the purposes of getting the colony to draw-out whole boxes of fresh wax at a time- we'll see how this works with all 8-frame medium Langs.
> 
> Thanks again for your kind feedback and good luck to you this season.


Be careful with this. I tried an empty between brood boxes and it didn't produce comb just queen cells. Because the empty box acts as a barrier to the queen and there is reduced queen pheromone in the other box which triggers supercedure cells.


----------



## crofter

jonsl said:


> Be careful with this. I tried an empty between brood boxes and it didn't produce comb just queen cells. Because the empty box acts as a barrier to the queen and there is reduced queen pheromone in the other box which triggers supercedure cells.


With heavy Carni influence bees and some periods of cold and wet weather I think supercedure cells would be almost guaranteed with that degree of separation especially with deeps. I think the Rose hive uses shallower depth though. Weather/flow conditions might be a factor. Maybe Russ has similar enough to make it fly! As long as you were on top of it supercedure cells could be a plus. Sounds like a fun thing to try.


----------



## Litsinger

jonsl said:


> Be careful with this. I tried an empty between brood boxes and it didn't produce comb just queen cells. Because the empty box acts as a barrier to the queen and there is reduced queen pheromone in the other box which triggers supercedure cells.





crofter said:


> With heavy Carni influence bees and some periods of cold and wet weather I think supercedure cells would be almost guaranteed with that degree of separation especially with deeps. I think the Rose hive uses shallower depth though. Weather/flow conditions might be a factor. Maybe Russ has similar enough to make it fly! As long as you were on top of it supercedure cells could be a plus. Sounds like a fun thing to try.


Gents:

Thank you for the experienced admonition here- I will take it as good advice to proceed with caution regarding this approach.

If I did the conversions correctly, it appears that a Rose Hive is approximately 18-1/8" X 18-1/8" X 7-1/2" D for an internal volume of over 1,800 cubic inches.

Comparing the depth (i.e. 7-1/2" versus 6-5/8") and the overall volume (i.e. 1,800 versus 1,500 cubic inches) seems to suggest that an 8-frame medium Langstroth might be a decent comparable to the Rose Hive, at least from the perspective of the overall void created when introducing an empty.

I'll plan on dipping my toes in cautiously and see what happens...

Thank you both again for the input- I really appreciate it.

Russ

p.s. Here is a good PowerPoint presentation of Tim Rowe's manipulation process for those who haven't seen it before:

http://www.rosebeehives.com/uploads/2/3/9/3/2393505/slide_show.pdf


----------



## crofter

You should be able to proof the concept close enough with the medium lang. box and frame without getting into a specialized equip. format. I have handled the Eyre (DE) equipment which has similar frame ears and they are easy on the fingers, BUT they create great havens for SHB.


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## AR1

jonsl said:


> Be careful with this. I tried an empty between brood boxes and it didn't produce comb just queen cells. Because the empty box acts as a barrier to the queen and there is reduced queen pheromone in the other box which triggers supercedure cells.


I may just try this to see what I get. Intending to make some queen cells anyway, and this sounds easy. Just put a box in between two boxes with eggs...


----------



## Litsinger

crofter said:


> I have handled the Eyre (DE) equipment which has similar frame ears and they are easy on the fingers, BUT they create great havens for SHB.


Frank:

Thank you for your feedback- and I apologize for the delay in reply as I have been away from the computer. I was unfamiliar with an Eyre hive, so I had to research it- looks like a modified Langstroth hive?

https://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-265212.html

https://mudsongs.org/de-hive/

I was surprised to read that you have trouble with SHB in your more northerly locale.

Thanks again for your help and input. I sincerely appreciate it!

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

This past Friday was unseasonably warm and everything has started blooming all at once so I decided to do the first inspection/manipulation of the season on the seven (7) Langstroth colonies as follows:

#1803: +/- 20 frames of bees / capped drones / no swarm cells. Added empty box between two active brood boxes.

#1804: +/- 16 frames of bees / capped drones / no swarm cells. Added empty box between two active brood boxes.

#1907: +/- 12 frames of bees / a few SHB's in-residence. Added box of drawn comb.

#1909: +/- 16 frames of bees / no swarm cells. Added empty box between two active brood boxes.

#1910: +/- 20 frames of bees / dry swarm cups. Added empty box between two active brood boxes.

#1911: +/- 12 frames of bees / a few SHB's in-residence. Added box of drawn comb.

#1912: +/- 24 frames of bees / dry swarm cups. Added empty box between two active brood boxes.

It looks like we have a nightime low predicted in the upper 30's F on Tuesday night (yikes!) so I may come to seriously regret this early season experiment.

Fresh wax showing up in #1904 now in the place where their comb had failed sometime late last season.

Finally, I was able to utilize Oldtimer's wedge trick to good effect, separating some free-hanging comb in #1912 without any appreciable damage.


----------



## Litsinger

Also, while manipulating the hives I collected mites for evaluation. Friday afternoon was approximately 6 days from the date that the trays were renewed.

#1803 - 17 total / 10 damaged
#1804- 9 total / 6 damaged
#1907- 7 total / 3 damaged
#1909- 4 total / 2 damaged
#1910- 0 total
#1911- 2 total / 1 damaged
#1912- 3 total / 2 damaged

When observing the mites, there are some interesting things that I see:

There are some that are obviously heavily-damaged, even their carapaces.

There are some that are atypical.

It seems that most have at least some damage of their mouthparts. For example, three representative mites from #1907, show:

Partially damaged mouthparts (#1907-01).

Heavily damaged mouthparts and legs (#1907-02).

Harder to interpret mites that look otherwise intact but seem to have damaged mouthparts (#1907-03). For the purposes of evaluation, I count mites in this condition as undamaged.


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## squarepeg

very interesting russ. 

great job with the updates, many thanks!


----------



## hockeyfan_019

Litsinger said:


> Also, while manipulating the hives I collected mites for evaluation. Friday afternoon was approximately 6 days from the date that the trays were renewed.
> 
> #1803 - 17 total / 10 damaged
> #1804- 9 total / 6 damaged
> #1907- 7 total / 3 damaged
> #1909- 4 total / 2 damaged
> #1910- 0 total
> #1911- 2 total / 1 damaged
> #1912- 3 total / 2 damaged
> 
> When observing the mites, there are some interesting things that I see:
> 
> There are some that are obviously heavily-damaged, even their carapaces.
> 
> There are some that are atypical.
> 
> It seems that most have at least some damage of their mouthparts. For example, three representative mites from #1907, show:
> 
> Partially damaged mouthparts (#1907-01).
> 
> Heavily damaged mouthparts and legs (#1907-02).
> 
> Harder to interpret mites that look otherwise intact but seem to have damaged mouthparts (#1907-03). For the purposes of evaluation, I count mites in this condition as undamaged.
> 
> View attachment 54165
> View attachment 54167
> View attachment 54169
> View attachment 54171
> View attachment 54175


Those pictures are awesome, but are you sure the mouth parts and legs are actually damaged? Could it be that they are just "curled" over so they look like the ends are missing? Are all the little orb shapes mite eggs? What do you use to take the pictures? Thanks for the info!


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> ... many thanks!


Many thanks to you, Squarepeg. You've been a tremendous help to me along the way and I appreciate how generous you are with your time and expertise with us novices here on Beesource.

I sincerely hope everything is off to a good start in your rebuilding efforts?

Thanks again-

Russ


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## Litsinger

hockeyfan_019 said:


> Those pictures are awesome, but are you sure the mouth parts and legs are actually damaged? Could it be that they are just "curled" over so they look like the ends are missing? Are all the little orb shapes mite eggs? What do you use to take the pictures? Thanks for the info!


Hockeyfan_019:

First off, thanks for your questions- I appreciate you chiming-in on this thread.

Secondly, please discount any feedback I give you as I am still very much a greenhorn at all this.

With a welcome and a disclaimer, here is my best shot at your questions:

1. Regarding mite damage- I have been trying to adhere to the assessment protocols developed by the Purdue Bee Lab using a document originally forwarded to me by Squarepeg: https://www.beeculture.com/breeding-mite-biting-bees-to-control-varroa/

The legs are fairly easy to ascertain damage due to the fact that they are typically (at least what I've observed) either totally or significantly gone. The mouthparts on the other hand are quite a bit more difficult, which has led me to follow an 'if in doubt consider it undamaged' approach.

2. Regarding the orb shapes- I 'think' these white spherical dots we're seeing are bits of wax from uncapping of stores. I am amazed how quickly the dropped mites get debris covered after only a few days after dropping. Early in the season when the rate of drops are low, it is a double-edged sword- you want to have enough mites to have enough to evaluate, but each day you wait, the worse condition the dropped mites become.

3.Regarding the photos- I use the Jiusion 4.3inch Screen Full Color LCD Digital USB Microscope as recommended to me by Ms. Dorothey Morgan with the Kentucky Queen Bee Breeders Association.

Thank you again for your questions- please feel welcome to jump-in anytime!

Russ


----------



## hockeyfan_019

Litsinger said:


> Hockeyfan_019:
> 
> First off, thanks for your questions- I appreciate you chiming-in on this thread.
> 
> Secondly, please discount any feedback I give you as I am still very much a greenhorn at all this.
> 
> With a welcome and a disclaimer, here is my best shot at your questions:
> 
> 1. Regarding mite damage- I have been trying to adhere to the assessment protocols developed by the Purdue Bee Lab using a document originally forwarded to me by Squarepeg: https://www.beeculture.com/breeding-mite-biting-bees-to-control-varroa/
> 
> The legs are fairly easy to ascertain damage due to the fact that they are typically (at least what I've observed) either totally or significantly gone. The mouthparts on the other hand are quite a bit more difficult, which has led me to follow an 'if in doubt consider it undamaged' approach.
> 
> 2. Regarding the orb shapes- I 'think' these white spherical dots we're seeing are bits of wax from uncapping of stores. I am amazed how quickly the dropped mites get debris covered after only a few days after dropping. Early in the season when the rate of drops are low, it is a double-edged sword- you want to have enough mites to have enough to evaluate, but each day you wait, the worse condition the dropped mites become.
> 
> 3.Regarding the photos- I use the Jiusion 4.3inch Screen Full Color LCD Digital USB Microscope as recommended to me by Ms. Dorothey Morgan with the Kentucky Queen Bee Breeders Association.
> 
> Thank you again for your questions- please feel welcome to jump-in anytime!
> 
> Russ


Thanks again Russ, I appreciate all the detailed work and explanation. Glad to see we have so many folks trying to understand these pests better, so we can develop a more effective means of control or eradication!


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## Litsinger

hockeyfan_019 said:


> Glad to see we have so many folks trying to understand these pests better, so we can develop a more effective means of control or eradication!


hockeyfan_019:

Thank you for your kind feedback. I share your warm sentiments for all those out there who are coming at this varroa problem from many different angles. I am cautiously optimistic that I might live to see the day when chemical intervention is no longer required to pursue successful beekeeping, even in commercial settings.


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## Litsinger

Found a yard drone today who appears to have gotten lucky (or unlucky depending on one's perspective). Hearing scattered reports from around the Commonwealth of swarms- it appears that reproductive season has started in earnest in the Bluegrass.


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## Riverderwent

Russ, thank you for going to the effort of collecting and photographing the mite specimens. The pictures and you comments are informative and promising.


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## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> Russ, thank you for going to the effort of collecting and photographing the mite specimens. The pictures and you comments are informative and promising.


And thank you, David for all the helpful advice you have offered me and others here on Beesource. I appreciate it.

If I were a betting man, I'd wager you've got some mite biting going on in your local population.


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## Riverderwent

Litsinger said:


> If I were a betting man, I'd wager you've got some mite biting going on in your local population.


That would be a very safe bet.


----------



## Litsinger

Interesting study from late last year examining the link between recapping behavior and varroa resistance:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-019-00721-9

A few of the interesting pull quotes:

Purpose

_The aim of this study was to investigate mite-naïve populations from Scotland, Isle of Man and Australia, and well-established mite-resistant populations from Brazil (AHB) and South Africa (A. m. scutellata and A. m. capensis), to identify whether re-capping is a reliable proxy for mite-resistance, and whether it is associated with reduced mite reproduction._

Results

_Based on 497 infested cells, we confirmed that the average number of mated female offspring produced per mother foundress during a single reproductive cycle … was between 0.8 and 0.9 in the three mite-resistant populations, with only 54–55% of the invading mothers reproducing, and producing between 1 and 3 mated female offspring each. Across the ten Varroa-naïve colonies from three different populations, only 0.5% (median) of the worker sealed brood cells were re-capped. In contrast, the median re-capping rates in the Varroa-resistant AHB, A. m. scutellata and A. m. capensis were 35%, 20% and 27%, respectively, although the average infestation rate was < 10% in every mite-resistant population._

Conclusions

_We propose that cell opening is a fundamental trait in mite-resistant populations and that re-capping is an accurate proxy for this behavior.

The key behavior in all these mite-resistant populations appears to be the bees’ ability to detect mite-infested cells, as indicated by consistently higher re-capping rates of infested cells relative to non-infested cells, particularly since infestation rates are typically below 10%._

_It appears that resistance towards Varroa mites in both A. cerana and A. mellifera is following a similar path, that of targeting mites invading worker cells and not drone cells, which will eventually lead to the combined effect of lower mite reproductive success in worker brood and density-dependent control in drone brood._

The study also has an interesting 'Process of Detection' infographic attached:









Has anyone observed significant recapping behavior in any of their colonies?


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## Litsinger

From Randy Oliver on Bee-L:

_"The good news is that it appears that our selective breeding for mite resistance may be gaining traction.

We began in 2017 with one resistant mother to breed from (along with a few other hives with low mite counts).

In 2018, some 20 colonies made the grade (holding at less than a 1% mite infestation rate at 5 alcohol wash samplings over the course of an entire year; I allow a spike to 3% at the November wash as they cease broodrearing, but they must bring it back down to 1% or less by March).

In 2019, 30 made the grade.

This spring, 56 have made the grade so far (after excluding any resistant colonies that were not up to par for other reasons), with 25 more to alcohol wash as they return from almond pollination. Seven of the above have now thrived without any mite treatment for two full years.

Every year, we requeen all our colonies solely with daughters of resistant mothers. Progress is expectly slow, but it's pretty exciting to see beautiful, strong colonies with mite counts of zero after an entire year without treatment.

This season I'll be breeding off of a greater number of queens to avoid excessive bottlenecking of genetic diversity.

I'm eager to see whether our percentages of resistant colonies continue to increase."_

It is heartening to read about this progress in a commercial setting and under the rigorous needs of almond pollination.


----------



## msl

Riverderwent said:


> That would be a very safe bet.


I am not so sure, I think something elce maybe at work here


Litsinger said:


> Regarding mite damage- I have been trying to adhere to the assessment protocols developed by the Purdue Bee Labs




The problem is you may not be, IIRR your using SBB, the Purdue stander is sticky boards, and I think its for good reason

The has been a huge amount of interest in MBB lately with a lot of hobbies joining in and coming up with numbers that dwarf the Purdue bees… ie russ’ 57% average VS the Purdue 45%

so that begs the question why are the bees of average beekeepers scoring so high against bees that have been selected for years, with II etc by the pros? The 1st thought is often its” proof of natural selection”, but we see very low mite biting numbers in the studies of feral bees, only around 10%. 

much ado is made over how fragile the legs of the mite are, pick them up with a paintbrush, etc…
my feeling is the impact with the SBB on the way through is inflating the damage % of the enthusiastic amateurs who are unaware of the possible effect of the protocol change. 

It would be interesting to see if your numbers change with sticky boards, your bees are alive, they are doing something, I wonder if I am right about the SBB


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> It would be interesting to see if your numbers change with sticky boards, your bees are alive, they are doing something, I wonder if I am right about the SBB


MSL:

Thank you for your feedback. As always, you make some good points and I will not argue the point that my sampling methods could certainly use some further refinement.

I will clarify that the sampling I am doing is generally in accord with how I understand the Purdue evaluations are done. Specifically (from the article):
_
"To measure the proportion of chewed mites, plastic sampling sheets were sprayed with vegetable oil and slid underneath colonies that had screened bottom boards (Country Rubes, Grass Valley, CA) and left for two or three days. Using enough vegetable oil makes it fatal for the mites, and also for any ants that might try to feed on them. Mites were carefully removed from the sample board using a small paintbrush and placed belly up (ventral side) in rows on microscope slides. If fewer than 10 mites were present the data was recorded but not used for selection decisions. The number of mites on sticky boards was recorded, slides were examined with a microscope (15X), and the number of mites missing legs or leg parts or showing mutilation of the idiosoma was counted."_

Also, I corresponded with Dr. Brock Harpur and he confirmed that the procedure forwarded to me by Ms. Dorothey Morgan (included below) is appropriate.

Regardless, I concede that there is much we don't know about what mite biting in-and-of-itself tells us about progress toward sustainable varroa resistance. 

For now, I am attempting to record as much data I can in as consistent manner I can in hopes that some trends and/or patterns might develop which have strong correlation to long-term survival.

I appreciate your input, and please always feel welcome to offer your perspective.

Mite Collection and Evaluation Protocol- courtesy of Ms. Dorothey Morgan

_When using a hive with a screened bottom board.**

1. Lightly oil the board with Pam spray, now almost wipe it all off. (too much oil will cover the legs and you will not be able to see if they are chewed.

2. Mite boards are put in for 48 hours, longer if no mites are dropped.

3. Board is removed, 

4. The board can't be stacked directly on top of one another or wrapped. You can stack if a spacer is used, this will keep the mites from being damaged.

5. Mites are removed by a fine tip paint brush (NO OTHER METHOD IS ACCEPTABLE), no knife, tweeter etc. 

6. Place mites on their back on a glass slide if using a regular scope or on a dark card stock if a digital scope.

7. Mites are viewed under the scope.

8. As they are viewed, divide then into 3 groups

A. First group, the light colored mites are discarded

B. Second group are the chewed ones. 

C. Third are the not chewed ones.

7. Chewing can be a leg, the tip of the leg, body parts. etc. any missing part is considered chewed.

7. Percentage is made between the chewed and not chewed.

8. This should be repeated in 2 to 3 weeks.

The fall is the best time, since mite loads are at their highest. This should be repeated a few times during the year.

**If the hive has a solid bottom board, you can make or purchase a board and screen from Mann Lake

https://www.mannlakeltd.com/sticky-board-with-screen_


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## msl

> As always, you make some good points


and as always you take things in a constructive manner they are meant 

somehow it got removed when I was editing.. I meant to open with 
in case you missed it https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-019-00710-y
of course in rereading it they do specify SBB :lpf: woops lol

and that dear posters is how you debate with data and studies without it getting personal!


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> in case you missed it https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-019-00710-y


MSL:

Thank you for your reply. I sincerely appreciate it. Great article- I had not yet seen this one.

It seems that the bottom-line from the most recent research is that they are advocating to continue evaluating phenotypical results for the hobby beekeeper and to continue looking for the genetic markers to make such phenotypes more predictable in commercial applications:

_'Grooming behavior, however, is difficult to measure because there are no practical assays to test colonies and thus, honey bee stocks selected for this trait are not generally available to queen producers.'

'If the heritability for this trait is high (due to additive genetic effects), then it should be possible to select for increased grooming behavior in bee colonies. However, measuring grooming behavior in the field is labor-intensive and experience in visualizing mites’ mutilation is required. Hence, the use of other markers (i.e., genes associated to the behavior) for selection could be of aid to assist breeding programs at a large scale.'_

A couple other study comments that I found interesting include:

_'Previous experiences have shown us that when keeping resistant and susceptible stock in the same apiary, mites from collapsing colonies will infest the survivors and cause them to eventually collapse as well (unpublished data).'

'V. destructor population growth could be a more informative variable on V. destructor resistance than the number of fallen mites.'_

Thank you again for your input. I sincerely appreciate it.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> It looks like we have a nightime low predicted in the upper 30's F on Tuesday night (yikes!) so I may come to seriously regret this early season experiment.


Today was an almost picture-perfect Spring day in the Commonwealth- with sunny skies, a high near 70 degrees F and almost no wind- a perfect opportunity to spend some time in the hives.

I must say that my experiment of bisecting the broodnest with an empty box has worked better than expected thus far, and seems to be a method to get whole boxes of comb drawn out, at least in certain circumstances. On March 27th I added an empty box between two active brood boxes to the following colonies with current progress noted: 

#1803: +/- 3 Frames 
#1804: +/- 1 Frame
#1909: +/- 4 Frames
#1910: +/- 8 Frames (added new empty box)
#1912: +/- 7 Frames (outer South facing frame drawn out a bit wonky)

Also, three random observations from this season thus far seem worth sharing:

1. George Imirie's advice to smoke a colony several minutes before cracking into them is sheer genius from my humble point-of-view. This year, even my touchier colonies have been much easier to manipulate following this approach. I have found an added benefit of screened bottom boards is that you can puff some smoke in from below, let it travel up the hive naturally with the help of buoyancy and then go take care of another task while the smoke works its magic.

2. I am uncertain whether it is my locale, the use of 8-frame mediums, the use of upper entrances, the background genetics of my colonies or some combination thereof, but all colonies appear perfectly content to move up to the top of the stack at the first cold temperatures in the late fall and stay at the very top of the stack during spring build-up. As such, I think it will be standard procedure for my operation in the future to move the broodnest down fairly early in the season to 'help' the colony get set-up in a way that assists the beekeeper with his purposes.

3. Speaking of upper entrances, the one thing I don't like about them is that any beekeeper intervention starting at the top of the stack immediately interrupts hive operations in a significant way. It is also a bit of a trick not to crush numerous foragers when replacing the upper entrance while buttoning things back up. At least with bottom entrances, the entrance normally stays in-place throughout the duration of hive inspections / manipulations.

Finally, following my days' manipulation efforts, Hive #1908 decided to cast a swarm. This is the hive that had 'Bees with Shrunken Heads' last week, so I don't know if that phenomena is in anyway connected with swarm preps.

Because it was my first trip up the ladder to hive a bivouac'ed swarm cluster for the season, I was a bit rusty- and all manner of mishap and hilarity ensued, but they are now safely hived in an empty Langstroth. Hopefully this is the start of several of the 'genetic resource' colonies offering up swarms that end up in production hives.

Here's hoping everyone's year is off to a great start.

Russ


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## gww

Russ
Your bees look healthy and they must feel so also to be swarming. Oh how I recognize the hilarity that can happen when hiving swarms. Kinda keeps it fun after you are done with the job.
Thanks for the report and your thought till now.
Cheers
gww


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## JWPalmer

Hmm, a ladder, a box that is hard to hold, a tree branch that must be shook, and thousands of stinging insects. What could possibly go wrong?


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> 3. Speaking of upper entrances, the one thing I don't like about them is that any beekeeper intervention starting at the top of the stack immediately interrupts hive operations in a significant way. It is also a bit of a trick not to crush numerous foragers when replacing the upper entrance while buttoning things back up. At least with bottom entrances, the entrance normally stays in-place throughout the duration of hive inspections / manipulations.
> 
> Russ


Hey Russ, regarding the entrances...

I now have concluded (after my 3-year observations) - the top entrance(s) can be blocked off for the summer (or most of the summer).

While for me the upper entrances are absolutely critical during the cold season, for the summer they are not critical at all.
My extreme top entrances (while bees did like them) actually created less than desired dynamics pulling up the brood-nest too high - so high as to actually abandon the bottom sections of the hives. 

The fall clusters formed way too high to my liking with not much honey domes above them. 
"Fortunately" those clusters died anyway and I did not have to deal with the wintering issues where bees had no honey above them.

Forcing the bees using the bottom entrance over the warm season should pull the entire brood-nest downwards and the stores upwards (the desired configuration).
Conveniently, with the bottom entrance during the inspections, you don't need to deal with a cloud of confused bees (AAA!!! Where did our entrance go!!!!????).
I had all those exact problems with my horizontal/vertical hybrid hives last season where I was testing how the presence of a variety of entrances was working (among other things).

Going forward now, I know how I will run my lower/upper entrances:
- bottom predominantly during the summer/fall
- combo of bottom/upper during the winter/spring

Only took some time to figure this out for my own (since no good answers are available - the usual case).


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Oh how I recognize the hilarity that can happen when hiving swarms. Kinda keeps it fun after you are done with the job.





JWPalmer said:


> Hmm, a ladder, a box that is hard to hold, a tree branch that must be shook, and thousands of stinging insects. What could possibly go wrong?


Hey- were you all watching me up there on that ladder? 

I know you both speak from experience and can likely relate to this specific situation- the cluster is just beyond the reach of the standard 8-foot step ladder so I have to run and get the 12-foot ladder, only to find that once on top of the ladder with box in tow that I can't quite reach the branch the cluster is on to give it a good shake- so... (if you're me) you grab the branch below to pull the branch in question down for a good, swift shake, only for the lower branch to break off while pulling on it, sending clustered bees both upward and downward in a jumbled cloud of confusion- not to mention receiving numerous stings to the hands and arms in the process.

Now, with 1/2 of the bees in the box, I am coming down the ladder only to fall off the ladder at the 3rd step, catapulting the swarm box onto the ground where a passel of bees end up in a wad on the ground.

After a few choice words and some time to collect myself I set-about to clean up my mess and in 30 minutes have 80% of the bees in the box. Miraculously, through all this the queen remains in the box making retrieval of the rest of the colony much easier.

Makes me appreciate it all the much more when they move into your swarm trap under their own volition.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Only took some time to figure this out for my own (since no good answers are available - the usual case).


GregV:

Thank you for your feedback- you may very well be on to something here. It seems plain to me that colonies that I have become acquainted with prefer to set-up the core of their nest near the entrance, so it makes sense that if a colony is using the upper entrance as their main path of egress / ingress that the nest dynamics might be inverted.

I am going to have to give this idea a bit more thought, but I can see how blocking-off the upper entrance during warm-weather operations would certainly help out with hive inspections.

That said, I suppose I am still faced with the conundrum of colonies who by virtue of (maybe the upper entrance) have set-up the core of their late winter broodnest at the very top of the stack needing to be 'reversed' of a sort to get the nest lower down.

I am going to puzzle on this concept some more- thanks for the food for thought.

Russ


----------



## Riverderwent

You only gotta catch one bee. Don't wait for the perfect weather forecast to plant or harvest. And get a bucket on a pole.


----------



## clong

Litsinger said:


> Today was an almost picture-perfect Spring day in the Commonwealth- with sunny skies, a high near 70 degrees F and almost no wind- a perfect opportunity to spend some time in the hives.
> 
> I must say that my experiment of bisecting the broodnest with an empty box has worked better than expected thus far, and seems to be a method to get whole boxes of comb drawn out, at least in certain circumstances. On March 27th I added an empty box between two active brood boxes to the following colonies with current progress noted:
> 
> #1803: +/- 3 Frames
> #1804: +/- 1 Frame
> #1909: +/- 4 Frames
> #1910: +/- 8 Frames (added new empty box)
> #1912: +/- 7 Frames (outer South facing frame drawn out a bit wonky)


Russ,

This is a great tip. In general, what did you observe in the inserted boxes? Did the colony extend the broodnest to connect what was below with what was above? Did they abandon the top or the bottom part of the broodnest?


----------



## gww

Russ


> That said, I suppose I am still faced with the conundrum of colonies who by virtue of (maybe the upper entrance) have set-up the core of their late winter broodnest at the very top of the stack needing to be 'reversed' of a sort to get the nest lower down.


Are you seeing them store honey below that brood nest at the top? Maybe enough time has not passed yet for them to be storing large amounts of honey, which would drive the brood nest down. I know squarepeg was managing early season by getting the brood nest to go as high as he could get it during spring build up so that when they started storing and back filling, the bees had enough room and did not get to swarm mode. 

I know he now moves the queen only down below a queen excluder at a certain date but am not sure if that is more recent tactic due to some problem or just extra insurance to keep the queen moving up rather then down with down maybe having a chance of increasing swarm tendencies. 

All that aside, I do read that bees like their brood being towards the entrance and member DanialD posted that the bees ate a lot of stored honey late year due to upper entrances. He posted a thread about this.

I have never had upper entrances and don't think abbe warre did on his hives and so my thinking that the bees will force the queen down as they need room may be all wet. The easiest thing might be to block the top entrance and let the bees back fill down and always make sure they have room at the bottom. This would keep you from getting all that foot traffic on your newly capped honey in the top box so you could have the prettiest pictures when you harvest.

You know I have no experience with top entrances or screened bottoms and so these are just thoughts thrown out there.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> You only gotta catch one bee. Don't wait for the perfect weather forecast to plant or harvest. And get a bucket on a pole.


Thanks, David- good reminder. My e-mail signature (Ecc. 11:4) says, _'He who watches the wind will not sow and he who looks at the clouds will not reap.'_ Just a reminder to me that one is assured failure if they never try.

I do need to get a bucket on a pole however... I told my wife recently, _"I don't know how folks in their 80's keep bees- it is hard work."_


----------



## Litsinger

clong said:


> Russ,
> 
> This is a great tip. In general, what did you observe in the inserted boxes? Did the colony extend the broodnest to connect what was below with what was above? Did they abandon the top or the bottom part of the broodnest?


clong:

Good question- the colonies are in general expanding the broodnest but I am also seeing the characteristic backfilling of the top of the nest in them. As regards the bottom, I am not sure just yet but will be interested to see what the bottom of the nest looks like now that I have moved it to directly above the bottom board (i.e. position #1).

In a way, I wonder if this approach is really just another spin on what Walt Wright understood- if you can successfully convince them to continue to expand the nest and successfully prevent them from backfilling the same, you can forestall swarming, increase colony population and possibly reap the benefits of larger nectar yields.

In truth, I've got a few colonies piddling around, several that are doing reasonably average and three that seem to be well-above average (#1803, #1910 and #1912)- it is these three that I am most interested in seeing how much comb they can draw out before the Summer Solstice.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Are you seeing them store honey below that brood nest at the top?
> 
> ...
> 
> All that aside, I do read that bees like their brood being towards the entrance and member DanialD posted that the bees ate a lot of stored honey late year due to upper entrances. He posted a thread about this.


GWW:

As always, I appreciate your helpful feedback. In my specific situation, I don't see them storing nectar below the broodnest as a rule, though I did have a situation last year where there was brood on either side of stores on top and bottom which left a colony with virtually empty boxes on both ends with the middle filled with stores in the Fall. I had to consolidate them before buttoning-them up for the Winter.

More than anything I wonder (as squarepeg has previously pointed out) that going into Winter the colonies prefer the relative warmth of the top of the stack and so move up there and then set-up shop up top because that is where they are when it is time to start Spring preps.

Beyond this, I think this idea of colony preference for setting up their nest oriented to the entrance (or entrances in my case) may at least explain some of the interesting configurations I have found at times.

I did look for DanielD's post but could not run across it- do you happen to recall what it was titled?

For now, I have moved all the main brood nests down to the bottom but continue to consider the implications of closing the upper entrances during the Summer. I do wonder if the colonies will move down given that the nest will already be set-up at the top... so much to learn, know and apply!

Thanks again for your help, and have a great week.

Russ


----------



## gww

Russ
My opinion, I think them having a brood nest set up at top does not stop the bottom that used to be brood nest from being brood nest again as honey comes in and they need to move down. What a sentence huh?

I will see if I can find danials thread on top entrances. No guarantee.

I think this is the right thread that I mentioned.
https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?338855-Top-entrances-cost-too-much/page3
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Russ
> My opinion, I think them having a brood nest set up at top does not stop the bottom that used to be brood nest from being brood nest again as honey comes in and they need to move down. What a sentence huh?
> 
> I will see if I can find danials thread on top entrances. No guarantee.
> 
> I think this is the right thread that I mentioned.
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?338855-Top-entrances-cost-too-much/page3
> Cheers
> gww


You're a good man, GWW. You are probably right about the colony being able to move the nest downward. In practice I simply haven't seen it materialize here yet.

I appreciate you sniffing out DanielD's thread- very helpful. I suspect that colony #1803 did exactly what Daniel describes last year in burning through significant stores and building a huge work force during a dearth, all in the name of getting their nest nearest the entrance.

Thank you again for finding the post- I simply did not go back quite far enough.

Rus


----------



## Litsinger

Riverderwent said:


> And get a bucket on a pole.


It's been a busy week in the beeyard and I am now standing +6 in the colony count. I have only had one swarm take up residence in a swarm trap- all others have had to be retrieved from the trees. So far, all the swarms have come from the Warre 'resource hives' so that aspect of my goal for these hives has worked out well this year.

That said, I thought I would share a humorous (and likely familiar) story of the 'one that got away'. On Tuesday (4.21) morning around 9:00 a.m., I received a call from someone regarding a swarm in their redbud tree. While heading out, I happened to notice that #1908 was in the process of issuing out a good-sized secondary swarm and that it settled at the very top (+45 feet) of an adjacent cedar tree. 

A quick assessment of the situation yielded more questions than answers so I decided to try my luck with the other swarm (which turned out to be a bust) and come back to this swarm later.

Upon returning around 11, I noticed that they were still bivouac'ed, so I decided to try my hand at climbing the tree. With a sincere prayer and a check on the status of my life insurance, I climbed up the tree only to find that the cluster was just out of reach.

So, I tried cutting the limb off and lowering it to the ground- FAIL.

I tried shaking the cluster off the limb so they would cluster lower- FAIL.

I tried hitting them with a baseball from the ground- FAIL.

I tried setting-up a makeshift swarm trap- FAIL.

I even tried making my own bucket on a pole- EPIC FAIL (with photos to prove it).

The only thing I didn't try was shooting them down, but given how dislodging them by shaking worked out, I decided it wasn't worth the effort.

Surprisingly, after all this they hung-around for 72 hours before finally departing for points-unknown. I figured they deserved to be set free.

Now for the rest of the story... this afternoon #1908 issued yet another secondary swarm which went high into the same cedar tree... but not quite so high so I was able to successfully retrieve them.

From all the 'swarm mania' this past week I had three thoughts:

1. I need to get a good bucket on a pole.

2. It seems that secondary swarms settle higher than primary swarms- maybe a function of a previously laying versus virgin queen?

3. I witnessed two 'practice swarms' and both times the bees participating in the practice were very aggressive- so I suppose swarms are only docile when they are actually swarms.

Enough rambling for now...


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> 2. It seems that secondary swarms settle higher than primary swarms- maybe a function of a previously laying versus virgin queen?


From my childhood experience (swarm watcher/catcher times) and the folklore - secondary swarms will fly higher/farther away (making them PITA to collect).
Must be the teenager queens.

Speaking of this problem swarm high up, I'd try to lift a very well propolised rag next to the swarm or a very well used, dark frame in the same way.
If raised on a long pole and somehow(!) lodged right next to the swarm for a time (even overnight), these could be attractive enough for the swarm to crawl over onto those.
Then you lower your pole with the swarm hanging on the other end of it.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> From my childhood experience (swarm watcher/catcher times) and the folklore - secondary swarms will fly higher/farther away (making them PITA to collect).
> Must be the teenager queens.
> 
> Speaking of this problem swarm high up, I'd try to lift a very well propolised rag next to the swarm or a very well used, dark frame in the same way.
> If raised on a long pole and somehow(!) lodged right next to the swarm for a time (even overnight), these could be attractive enough for the swarm to crawl over onto those.
> Then you lower your pole with the swarm hanging on the other end of it.


GregV:

This is great feedback, and I appreciate your input. I am sorry for my delay in response.

Your primary/secondary swarm anecdote makes sense to me- though I had a prime swarm settle rather high this week that suggests that (like most things bee) there are no hard-and-fast rules to this stuff.

I made a few improvements to my swarm-catching pole (mainly more duct tape) and was able to successfully dislodge two swarm clusters over the past two days. I was able to snag the queen on one as I saw her while dumping them into a box, but I never saw the other so we'll see in a couple of weeks whether it is viable. I haven't numbered it yet if that tells you anything...

The one downside I have discovered to putting a frame in the bucket is that this extra weight cantilevered over a long distance creates quite a moment-arm that makes the whole contraption quite unruly to drive. Also, it is very important to affix the frame to the bucket somehow. I imagine you can figure out why .

Today, I experimented with taping a piece of junk foundation in the bucket and that was much easier to handle. The right answer might be a good old piece of drawn brood comb, sans frame.

Your thought of figuring out a way to leave the bucket in-place overnight makes a lot of sense as my experience with trying to dislodge a cluster from so far down is that you end up leaving a lot of bees behind and end up using a sawing or scraping motion to get them dislodged- which creates lots of opportunities for either killing/maiming the queen or leaving her behind. If one could get them to move down on their own this would be a much better solution.

Thank you again for your response- I do appreciate it.

Russ


----------



## GregB

All in all, Russ, I am envious!
Man, your swarming program out of your Warre's is working (however laborious it maybe).
I could use a couple of such swarms myself about now.
Staying tuned.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> All in all, Russ, I am envious!.


Thank you for your kind words, GregV.

I say this without a hint of false humility- don't envy me yet...

All I've done thus far is put a lot of bees in boxes which are indeterminate in their value.

For example, I have noticed that the Warre 'resource colonies' responsible for most of the swarm activity are quite content living in a three-deep (Warre) configuration, as all but one have left the bottom box completely empty. Thus, they may be profligate in their swarming tendencies and not much good for anything other than making bees and casting swarms. 

When I have a bit more time, I'd like to boil down some of my observations concerning this season's swarm goings-on and try to make sense of what it may mean for both the opportunities and challenges which may lie ahead.

I do have to remind myself to not jump to too many conclusions, nor to make any rapid changes to my main goals until I have enough data to make actionable and empirically-driven decisions by. For now, my one hard-and-fast rule remains- 'if they live, they get to keep a seat at the table'.

I really do hope that this year is one in which you are able to really turn the corner with your project and see some positive developments that you are able to build from.

Thanks again for your help and advice along the way.

Have a great day.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Here in the Bluegrass, we are in the throes of record-setting low temperatures to start the month of May. In fact, more Central and Eastern portions of the state are facing the prospect of another hard freeze tonight. It has been an interesting Spring here, with the flora responding to a mild Winter by generally blooming 2 - 3 weeks earlier than last year only to be met with a much cooler-than-average Spring.

As regards the bees, the first swarm I recorded from last year was on April 24th and the last one was on May 19th.

This year, the first swarm I recorded was on April 4th- and but for a recent week-long stretch of cold, wet and windy weather I would almost say that swarm season is about over around here. We'll see what the next week or so holds.

To-date, I have observed seventeen (17) swarms in my yard- I have hived fifteen (15) of them and thirteen (13) of those appear to have established successfully. I have also hived a swarm from a neighbor's yard making the colony count +14 versus the start of the year.

I have read several anecdotes from across the state suggesting it has been a big swarm year- regular swarm trappers are turning away swarm calls because they have run out of equipment- I imagine this might be largely due to the uncommonly mild Winter we had.

At this juncture I am working to:

1. Prepare additional equipment to hopefully position swarm stock for overwintering.

2. Manage surplus collection from production colonies.


----------



## Litsinger

Interesting presentation tonight from Dr. Delaplane as a part of the 'Stay at Home Beekeeping Series' entitled, _Bee and Parasite Biogeography_:

https://www.facebook.com/LawrenceCountyextension/videos/1163065480693685

In his lecture, Dr. Delaplane reinforces his working thesis of 'evolutionary distance'- the idea that resistance factors for specific parasites develop more readily in populations which are more recently separated from each other in their respective processes of adaptation. As an example, Dr. Delaplane suggests that the North American Apis mellifera population is better equipped to adapt to the recent introduction of Small Hive Beetles as opposed to a similarly recent introduction of Varroa Mites due to the fact that Western honeybees have already adapted successfully in their ancestral past to the hive beetle as opposed to no known historical exposure to the Varroa Mite until the 20th century. 

He also briefly outlined their current research in the field of genetic diversity as component of varroa resistance. Starting at about the 53 minute mark he shares an excerpt of scatter plot data showing the correlation between number of matings for a queen and the resultant resistance figures. In short, he concludes that (in general) mite loads go down as the number of matings goes up.

Finally, he touches on an interesting hypothesis that the Apis genus originated in Europe rather than in Africa.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> *To-date, I have observed seventeen (17) swarms in my yard.*..


Russ, 
How many source colonies generated these swarms (if you know)?
Did the swarms come out of the Warre hives predominantly?


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Russ,
> How many source colonies generated these swarms (if you know)?
> Did the swarms come out of the Warre hives predominantly?


Good questions, GregV. I have attached my accounting of the swarms to the best of my abilities.

In short, I have observed twenty (20) swarms to-date and have successfully hived fifteen (15) of them.

Of the list of swarms that I am reasonably confident about, it appears that approximately ten (10) swarms have emerged from Warre colonies, six (6) from Langstroth colonies, three (3) of unknown origins and one (1) from outside of my yard.

View attachment 2020 Swarm Record.pdf


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Good questions, GregV. I have attached my accounting of the swarms to the best of my abilities.
> 
> In short, I have observed twenty (20) swarms to-date and have successfully hived fifteen (15) of them.
> 
> Of the list of swarms that I am reasonably confident about, it appears that approximately ten (10) swarms have emerged from Warre colonies, six (6) from Langstroth colonies, three (3) of unknown origins and one (1) from outside of my yard.
> 
> View attachment 55687


10 swarms from 4 Warre - about 2.5 swarms per a Warre hive.
6 swarms from 5 Langs - about 1.2 swarms per a Lang hive.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> 10 swarms from 4 Warre - about 2.5 swarms per a Warre hive.
> 6 swarms from 5 Langs - about 1.2 swarms per a Lang hive.


GregV:

I had not thought of it in those terms, but that does help compare the two set-ups and management approaches.

It is even more telling to consider that I came through Winter with seven (7) Langstroth colonies and five (5) Warre colonies.

As near as I can tell, only three (3) of the Langstroth colonies have swarmed.

When the Warre colonies have swarmed it seems that the median number of swarms per colony is three (3).

I am cautiously optimistic that the approach to bisecting the broodnest has helped with swarm mitigation.

My 'pride-and-joy' this year is colony #1910. They are the last swarm hived last year (May 19th) and were only about a 1.5# cluster.

Thus far they have drawn-out two complete boxes of comb and show no signs of slowing down so I added another empty.

Also I hived a +/- 3# swarm from #1906 yesterday which means I officially have no more equipment left- I had already cobbled together two hive set-ups with parts from the equipment 'bone-yard' so I am hoping that swarm season is over around here- never thought I would type that...


----------



## gww

Russ
How many splits are you planning to make this year. Ha ha.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> 10 swarms from 4 Warre - about 2.5 swarms per a Warre hive.
> 6 swarms from 5 Langs - about 1.2 swarms per a Lang hive.


hmmm, IF that was all of them  we have the observed data points and the non observed data points. Not trying to under mine but could have missed several.

Awesome job Russ +15 for the year. so this winter may have some wood working...for you.. 9 hives this year may have 18 next...
Glad my prediction of bee source with the Warre was close...helps me to hone the instinct. I would consider selling 4 or 5 over wintered NUCs,, seems you will likely refill them hives, with new swarms. Keep the best 3 or 4 each year, set the queen and the 5 best frames in a box, sell, add the rest of the bees to another hive stack.
5 NUCs at 150, would be some lunch money any way.

I did 3 splits last week monday and 2 on friday where we found Q cells, no swarms yet but + 5 with splits for me.
Have 5 traps out, when this crappy weather breaks ,I would think swarming should begin in earnest.

GG


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> I had not thought of it in those terms, but that does help compare the two set-ups and management approaches.
> 
> It is even more telling to consider that I came through Winter with seven (7) Langstroth colonies and five (5) Warre colonies.
> 
> As near as I can tell, only three (3) of the Langstroth colonies have swarmed.
> 
> When the Warre colonies have swarmed it seems that the median number of swarms per colony is three (3).
> 
> I am cautiously optimistic that the approach to bisecting the broodnest has helped with swarm mitigation.
> 
> My 'pride-and-joy' this year is colony #1910. They are the last swarm hived last year (May 19th) and were only about a 1.5# cluster.
> 
> Thus far they have drawn-out two complete boxes of comb and show no signs of slowing down so I added another empty.
> 
> Also I hived a +/- 3# swarm from #1906 yesterday which means I officially have no more equipment left- I had already cobbled together two hive set-ups with parts from the equipment 'bone-yard' so I am hoping that swarm season is over around here- never thought I would type that...
> 
> View attachment 55743
> View attachment 55745
> View attachment 55747
> View attachment 55749
> View attachment 55751


That is the best feeling Russ, out of equipment and even cobbled a couple together.

Now next is the honey project....

GG


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> How many splits are you planning to make this year. Ha ha.


Don't tempt me... how many are you going to come down and take off my hands?


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> hmmm, IF that was all of them  ....... GG


Right.
The implicit intent was for Russ to correct the numbers.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> hmmm, IF that was all of them  we have the observed data points and the non observed data points. Not trying to under mine but could have missed several.


GG:

Thank you for your kind feedback. I really appreciate it. You are absolutely right that I have likely missed a few, but working from home has literally given me the opportunity to look out my window (or maybe more accurately listen) and see and hear the swarms as they are issued, which has been quite an educational experience.



Gray Goose said:


> Awesome job Russ +15 for the year. so this winter may have some wood working...for you..


It has left me thinking more seriously about where to go from here- making some assumptions about Winter viability.



Gray Goose said:


> Glad my prediction of bee source with the Warre was close...helps me to hone the instinct. I would consider selling 4 or 5 over wintered NUCs,, seems you will likely refill them hives, with new swarms. Keep the best 3 or 4 each year, set the queen and the 5 best frames in a box, sell, add the rest of the bees to another hive stack.
> 5 NUCs at 150, would be some lunch money any way.


You have been a great help and have given me excellent advice along the way- I think your idea of looking to sell a few nucs makes a lot of sense. With your gift of prognostication, maybe you should play the lottery .



Gray Goose said:


> I did 3 splits last week monday and 2 on friday where we found Q cells, no swarms yet but + 5 with splits for me.
> Have 5 traps out, when this crappy weather breaks ,I would think swarming should begin in earnest.


Best of luck to you in your propagation efforts- I suppose you ended up with enough Winter survival to stay the course in the TF regime? Do you anticipate bringing any outside genetics in?

Thanks again for all your help and advice- it has proved invaluable, and I appreciate your taking the time to share your expertise.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> That is the best feeling Russ, out of equipment and even cobbled a couple together.


There's always room for one more, right? 

Yesterday, I came across this small swarm right at ground level so I decided it was too easy to pass-up, as I've never had one cluster this low.

So I quickly grabbed the last hive body that I have painted, a piece of plywood, an inner cover and a sheet of aluminum.

The queen proved to be very flighty and disinterested in settling in the box, so I quickly improvised a queen cage. It was only after moving them to their new location that I found another queen that had already moved down, so this small swarm had at least two queens.



Gray Goose said:


> Now next is the honey project....


You are exactly correct- that had been a part of the goals for this year but the swarming caused me to neglect the production colonies and miss out on the opportunity to learn more about how to manage established colonies correctly. Hopefully there is still a little time left yet in the year to focus some attention on surplus production.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Right.
> The implicit intent was for Russ to correct the numbers.


GregV:

You know that I am pretty dense, so I am afraid I am not good at picking-up hints. Do I have an adding error in my spreadsheet?

Thanks for helping a poor soul out.

Russ


----------



## gww

russ


> The queen proved to be very flighty and disinterested in settling in the box,


I don't have as much experience as you now on hiving swarms. I do carry lemon grass oil in my pocket at all times during the summer and on new stuff that has never had bees in it, I put one or two drops on the floor of the box.

I used a brood comb once but decided that was too much work.

I don't know if the lemon grass oil will help but my few swarms have accepted the boxes the minute I dump the first bit of bees I can get into a bucket put in the box. Mostly after that the rest fly down on their own. I sometime shake twice cause I get impatient to get all the bees in the box but not always.
Take it for what it is worth.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I do carry lemon grass oil in my pocket at all times during the summer and on new stuff that has never had bees in it, I put one or two drops on the floor of the box.


GWW:

That is a great idea, and I sincerely appreciate it. This instance has only happened twice this Spring, and in both cases it has been with secondary swarms. I also observed that when I caged this queen the workers were not all that interested in her, so it makes me wonder if these cast swarms more often than not have multiple queens in them and that there is more going on when hiving them than meets the eye as a result... just speculation on my part.

I do appreciate your suggestions and advice, and I am glad to read that you are coming into some swarms yourself. 

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> You know that I am pretty dense, so I am afraid I am not good at picking-up hints. Do I have an adding error in my spreadsheet?
> 
> Thanks for helping a poor soul out.
> 
> Russ


So Russ,
I should have asked for the corrections - well, I did not.
All is good.


The GG's point is that ALL hives need to be included into the proper swarm/hives ratio - including the hives that threw zero swarms.
My proposed ratios are likely incorrect (which I knew about) - because I don't know the actual true # of the hives that you have.
Your document did not include the hives which produced zero swarms.

All in all - the smaller hives (Warres) produced significantly more swarms - that is the essence of it and good enough for me.
But also this demonstrates how the smaller hives have more favorable conditions in spring for the rapid colony development and reproductive processes.


----------



## Gray Goose

Also my point is that if you were on a client site for the day or just out some where, a swarm could have issued and landed just out of sight, so the numbers are "known" swarms, maybe there were more.

as for:
Best of luck to you in your propagation efforts- I suppose you ended up with enough Winter survival to stay the course in the TF regime? Do you anticipate bringing any outside genetics in?

Yes I did get 2 packages from Kelley of the pure Russians, they will be hatching their own brood near today, One looks very good and one average. I intend to take a couple splits in july and try to winter Palmer style 5X5 side by side of their F1's.

And I did order 2 "northern" queens from Better bee NY as One of my mentees up north had bad luck with a package, queen did not start laying, bees did not replace, finally ordered a queen, 1 lb of the 3 lbs left from the 5 week old package. this hive then went to 2 deeps , harvested 3 medium supers, and was booming this spring. May have been a 1 off but time will tell.
I almost every year get 4-6 queens to keep up the "robustness" per your description, of the queens I mate in my yards. Not sure if it helps but mixing a couple new queens in each year IMO is helpful.
Have 8 NUCs out with cells today, so making steady gains. Hope to get a super from these in late July. all were 5 frames of bees with brood. 
Today is the first Nice day and 80s expected by next week so summer is here and swarms will soon be on the front burner.
Not sure yet if I requeen them, depends on the size. 5+ pounds of bees with old queen will be presumed "over wintered" and I am thinking of a mixed yard where all the know unknowns go. All the queens I hatch are F1 russians , so the other 2 yards are the F1's

But who knows it depends on how many I get to. Do not want all the eggs in one yard, in case of Bear , or EFB, or theft. 

Thank you for the kind words

GG


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The GG's point is that ALL hives need to be included into the proper swarm/hives ratio - including the hives that threw zero swarms.
> 
> ...
> 
> All in all - the smaller hives (Warres) produced significantly more swarms - that is the essence of it and good enough for me.
> But also this demonstrates how the smaller hives have more favorable conditions in spring for the rapid colony development and reproductive processes.


GregV:

Thank you for the clarification and this makes perfect sense. I appreciate the suggestions.

So to summarize:

1. I started the season with seven (7) Langstroth colonies and have assumed seven (7) swarms issued from these colonies. There are only two (2) overwintered Langstroth colonies that I am certain have not swarmed.

2. I started the season with five (5) Warre colonies and have assumed twelve (12) swarms issued from these colonies. I suspect (but cannot confirm) that only one of these colonies has not swarmed.

I have observed a total of twenty-three (23) swarms and have successfully hived twenty (20) of them. Two (2) hived swarms subsequently failed- one (1) queenless and one (1) absconded, leaving me with a total of + eighteen (18) colonies to-date.

I have attached an updated swarm record for reference.

I agree with your assertion that the smaller (and more heavily insulated) cavities lend themselves to earlier development and successful swarm preparation- might prove to be a double-edged sword in future years, depending upon apiary objectives.

View attachment 2020 Swarm Record- Updated May 21st.pdf


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Also my point is that if you were on a client site for the day or just out some where, a swarm could have issued and landed just out of sight, so the numbers are "known" swarms, maybe there were more.


GG:

Thank you for your reply- and no argument from me on this point. I consider it providential that I have been working from home through the entirety of swarm season during a year in which I earnestly hoped for an increase in apiary numbers and I remain clueless about swarm management. 

Said another way, what could have been a disaster of losing many swarms to the trees due to my ineptitude has proven to be a blessing in disguise (despite the inconvenience of having to get creative to haul some of them back down).



Gray Goose said:


> Yes I did get 2 packages from Kelley of the pure Russians, they will be hatching their own brood near today, One looks very good and one average. I intend to take a couple splits in july and try to winter Palmer style 5X5 side by side of their F1's.
> 
> And I did order 2 "northern" queens from Better bee NY as One of my mentees up north had bad luck with a package, queen did not start laying, bees did not replace, finally ordered a queen, 1 lb of the 3 lbs left from the 5 week old package. this hive then went to 2 deeps , harvested 3 medium supers, and was booming this spring. May have been a 1 off but time will tell.


This is one thing that still impresses and amazes me- the fact that with genetic recombination you always have the chance of something very unexpected showing up- so you can't always tell just by looking at a queen, her pedigree or the swarm / package she comes with to determine proof-positive what you're going to get.



Gray Goose said:


> I almost every year get 4-6 queens to keep up the "robustness" per your description, of the queens I mate in my yards. Not sure if it helps but mixing a couple new queens in each year IMO is helpful.


Have you ever compared the benefit conferred by the imported vigor to any liabilities that come along with not being locally adapted? That said, I recall you saying there is not much in the way of feral stock in your neighborhood, right?



Gray Goose said:


> But who knows it depends on how many I get to. Do not want all the eggs in one yard, in case of Bear , or EFB, or theft.


This makes good sense, and I am somewhat concerned at present about having all my stock in a single yard now. One thing that has always haunted me about TF is not the prospect of failure, but the numerous anecdotes from people I know personally and read about who are initially successful only to have spectacular failure after a few or several years. In the back of my mind I wonder if at least part of this possibly relates to colony density and associated disease transmission.


----------



## GregB

Well, clearly the TF ways are working for you, Russ.
All in all - lots of bees and plenty of reproductive drive, a good sign.
You are having it good.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> You are having it good.


Thank you, GregV. I am mindful of this and am trying not to take any of it for granted.

I sincerely hope you will find yourself in a good spot with your efforts in the near future.

I do appreciate reading about your efforts and I am grateful for your input along the way- you've been a big help to me.

Russ


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> GG:
> 
> Thank you for your reply- and no argument from me on this point. I consider it providential that I have been working from home through the entirety of swarm season during a year in which I earnestly hoped for an increase in apiary numbers and I remain clueless about swarm management.
> 
> Said another way, what could have been a disaster of losing many swarms to the trees due to my ineptitude has proven to be a blessing in disguise (despite the inconvenience of having to get creative to haul some of them back down).
> 
> 
> 
> This is one thing that still impresses and amazes me- the fact that with genetic recombination you always have the chance of something very unexpected showing up- so you can't always tell just by looking at a queen, her pedigree or the swarm / package she comes with to determine proof-positive what you're going to get.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever compared the benefit conferred by the imported vigor to any liabilities that come along with not being locally adapted? That said, I recall you saying there is not much in the way of feral stock in your neighborhood, right?
> 
> 
> 
> This makes good sense, and I am somewhat concerned at present about having all my stock in a single yard now. One thing that has always haunted me about TF is not the prospect of failure, but the numerous anecdotes from people I know personally and read about who are initially successful only to have spectacular failure after a few or several years. In the back of my mind I wonder if at least part of this possibly relates to colony density and associated disease transmission.


Hi Russ,
couple points, comments.

Smaller cavities would "requeen" them selves and have brood breaks more frequently,, both good things. I would think the second/third etc swarms from the Warre are new local mated queens, those I would watch for winter survival , and the primary Swarms with over wintered Queen , give a little drone comb to. Let the survivors make drones and the new queen go into a test mode. Gentleness, productivity , survivability, etc., In Langs those could be watched better, when swarm cells seen , split and do fly back splits to a Warre location, IE magnify the few you like with more increase. the mean ones or unproductive, use for split boosters once queens are mated.

Compared benefit from imported vigor,,, I always take the Eggs/Q cells from the best winter survivors, not the imports. The imports get supers and are somewhat production and drone source. I can sell enough Honey to get my funds back from the bought imports. And I get to see production and gentleness, and then if they make the winter, I can decide if they are worth adding to the "reproductive" gene pool. With only 10-20 hives I could get inbreeding so the imports are a precaution for that.

I did catch 2 swarm last year, One is a dink, queen failure and not superseding, and one last night I found Queen less. I "may" have squished her , if so my bad, but they could have tried to make E cells and did not. So last years swarm catches are now genitically off the books. I have a hive with swarm cells , so the 3 way 5 frame splits, will be 4 way 8 frame splits and I will just use the bees up in splits, tonight i think if the weather permits.

yes the bears, in my far past. 90s I have been wiped out by bears 3 times. then I had only 6-8 hives and they were not in the back yard , but out to a distant property.
I have heard in the state of theft, so IMO having more than 1 yard helps me to be resilient. Could be over kill, but these are all in very different DCAs as well so I am looking at if a yard tends to go down hill in time or improve, as well.

Seems your yard is good as you can see to capture swarms. I am glad you had the time to capture this year, as many as you did. I tend to split "pre swarm" somewhat using the swarm cells, but not risking the fly away. If your bees are survivors the DCA is also good. Not every place has this feature. I am impressed with how fast you are progressing. I do look forward to your posts.

thanks
GG


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ........ I am somewhat concerned at present about having all my stock in a single yard now. One thing that has always haunted me about TF is not the prospect of failure, but the numerous anecdotes from people I know personally and read about who are initially successful only to have spectacular failure after a few or several years. In the back of my mind I wonder if at least part of this possibly relates to colony density and associated disease transmission.


Long term - I would definitely add at least 1-2 redundant locations.
No need to replicate my insanity (7 spots), but 2-3-4 spots is probably reasonable and doable for most.


----------



## Litsinger

GG and GregV:

Thank you both for your replies- I sincerely appreciate them and apologize for my response as I have been away from the computer.

All-in-all the advice to introduce resiliance (both from a genetic and logistics) standpoint makes a lot of sense. I am going to spend some time thinking about some goals along those lines.

Speaking of goals, I find myself struggling with where to go next. 

Specifically, the apiary has grown much quicker than I anticipated and I find myself needing to both:

1. Get much better at being a beekeeper- there are still a lot of basic things (like swarm control) that I need to learn.

2. Learn how to make beekeeping a legitimate business enterprise- making nucs and producing / selling a honey crop are still beyond my level of expertise.

Ultimately I expect I need to invest more in our local beekeeping association and take advantage of some hands-on mentorship opportunities. 

Thank you both again for the input. Hopefully you both start having significant swarm action soon- we are done here.


----------



## Litsinger

Interesting study published late last year evaluating the relative virulance of mites from different management settings:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-019-00716-6

I found the nuanced discussion about parasite-host mismatch and the distinction between resistance and tolerance helpful in considering some of the underlying mechanisms which confer a survival advantage to local stock.

From the conclusion:

'We provide evidence consistent with the idea that selection pressures on mites in these managed conditions favor increased reproductive rates. This could act to increase the transmission rate in these managed environments. However, we did not find negative strength and survival outcomes that we expected with these higher mite burdens. Mites from feral backgrounds may have caused negative health outcomes due to a mismatch in coevolved bee and mite strains.'


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GG and GregV:..........
> 
> Ultimately I expect I need to invest more in our local beekeeping association and take advantage of some hands-on mentorship opportunities.


Btw, consider active participation in your local beek group as a way to market your bees (eventually).
One local guy here (a participant in that "bee study" I posted) is an active participant and often helps out the new beeks with their struggles (e.g. catching a swarm and such).
Usually, he has no problems selling off his extra bees via just the beek group.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Btw, consider active participation in your local beek group as a way to market your bees (eventually).


That's a great point, GregV. Thank you for the suggestion. 

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Things are pretty quiet in the beeyard around here- foraging has slowed considerably and we seem to be past the main swarm window (referred to as 'Reproductive Cut-Off' by Mr. Walt Wright).

As it stands now, it looks like I'm at about 28 queenright colonies. Since my last update I have had two negative developments:

#1908 (overwintered Warre) appears based on external observations to have failed to requeen successfully following multiple swarms (at least three). I continue to monitor them and will plan on shaking them out if it becomes certain they are queenless. I am a little more circumspect in doing so following my failed diagnosis of a queenless Warre last year.

#2020 (from #1907)- I hived a big (5+ # swarm) from this colony on May 22nd in a cobbled-together hive body consisting of two (2) eight-frame medium hive bodies and only a bottom entrance drilled into a piece of plywood. After 48 hours they decided they did not like the accommodations and they flew the coop.

I was there to watch the event unfold and I again tried my hand at tanging (third try this year) and I again noticed no discernible change in their behavior as they considered where to bivouac. I am not saying it does not work in some situations, but it certainly has not worked for me...


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## JWPalmer

Hmm, tanging. Russ, wanna join me on a snipe hunt?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipe_hunt


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## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> Hmm, tanging. Russ, wanna join me on a snipe hunt?
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipe_hunt


Funny, JW. I'd go, but I am too busy looking for bigfoot...

I figured there was little risk in trying and no one out here to make fun of me, so I decided to try.

Glad to read that all is going well in your yard and that nuc sales are good.


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## JWPalmer

Litsinger said:


> Funny, JW. I'd go, but I am too busy looking for bigfoot.


If you saw me working outside without a shirt on, you would swear you found him.


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## gww

russ


> I was there to watch the event unfold and I again tried my hand at tanging (third try this year) and I again noticed no discernible change in their behavior as they considered where to bivouac. I am not saying it does not work in some situations, but it certainly has not worked for me...


Some of the old time book writers said if you could find a way to sprinkle or throw water on them they would go back or land. 

One other thing to watch (from reading only) is small nuc size boxes and full sun. If they get too hot before building out, they leave and nucs should be in shade.
Take it for what it is worth.
Cheers
gww


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I'm at about 28 queenright colonies...


Just... wow.
Good deal. 
And most all probably will survive (unlike mine).


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## AR1

GregV said:


> Just... wow.
> Good deal.
> And most all probably will survive (unlike mine).


He's been doing it a bit longer than us. We'll figure it out eventually.


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> He's been doing it a bit longer than us. We'll figure it out eventually.


Well, I was born into a bee yard and remember being around bees since I remember myself.
I should know better.
And yet feels like I don't know much of anything anymore.


But in all fairness, beekeeping here and now is not my Dad's beekeeping (very straight forward, back in some village).
That's for sure.


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## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> If you saw me working outside without a shirt on, you would swear you found him.


I must have been mistaken, I thought you were the Elvis lookalike:


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> One other thing to watch (from reading only) is small nuc size boxes and full sun. If they get too hot before building out, they leave and nucs should be in shade.


Good points, GWW. I was in desperate straits equipment-wise when they swarmed so they ended up in boxes hastily placed in full sun and without any drawn comb, so your observation is likely a prime contributor to their looking for better habitation.

That said, I don't mind losing a few to the woods, working under the assumption that I am giving back to the population which has given so generously to me.

Thank you for your feedback.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> He's been doing it a bit longer than us. We'll figure it out eventually.


AR1:

In truth, while I kept bees as a youth, I was not making the management decisions, only helping out. To be certain, I still know very little about how to successfully manage bees and am acutely aware of how much more I need to learn before I would ever consider myself a proficient beekeeper. 



GregV said:


> But in all fairness, beekeeping here and now is not my Dad's beekeeping (very straight forward, back in some village).
> That's for sure.


And to GregV's point, he likely has much more first-hand beekeeping experience, and beekeeping is different now than it was prior to varroa. 

I truly think that I am simply the lucky beneficiary of a bee population which is currently exhibiting better-than-average mechanisms to cope with varroa and/or a varroa population that is less virulent than average.

Succinctly, I assign zero contribution to my management being a positive contributor to any success I have enjoyed thus far and chalk it all up to a favorable environment.

Ultimately, only time will tell whether this is a sustainable trend and whether any future efforts I make to manage the size and swarming frequency of my colonies under management will erode the stable paradigm which appears to exist at present.


----------



## Litsinger

Interesting study posted on Bee-L this morning that studies the potential role and mechanics of allogrooming in Apis mellifera:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-65780-w

From my take, there appear to be three (3) central observations and one (1) conclusion (at least as it relates to varroa):

Observation 1- Allogroomers have a higher immune capacity

_'We found that allogroomers have higher immune capacity compared to control bees, while they do not differ in chemosensory proteomic profiles. Behaviourally, they do not show differences in the tasks performed (other than allogrooming), while they clearly differ in connectivity within the colonial social network, having a higher centrality than control bees. This demonstrates the presence of an immune-specific physiological and social behavioural specialization in individuals involved in a social immunity related task, thus linking individual to social immunity, and it shows how phenotypes may be specialized in the task performed while maintaining an overall plasticity.'_

Observation 2- Allogrooming is age-dependent

_'Our observations clearly showed that allogrooming is age-dependent, with a peak of expression between 6 and 11 days of worker age, and its expression is not randomly distributed on the comb surface but rather clustered in a restricted area opposed to the hive entrance and to the dance area. Moreover, our results suggest that allogrooming is a weak specialization. The behavioural repertoire of allogroomers and age-matched non-groomers is quite similar: apart from the defining activity of allogrooming, allogroomers perform the same set of tasks expected on the basis of their age polyethism, and with similar frequency, compared to same age range non-grooming bees.'_

Observation 3- Allogroomers have a distinct social position

_'Allogroomers are more connected, i.e. have higher network centrality, compared to same age range non-grooming workers, which translates into contacting a higher number of colony mates.'_

Conclusion- Allogrooming is helpful but not sufficient (in the sampled bees) to successfully confer resistance to varroa

_'Since the expression rate of the behaviour appears to be limited also at the colony level in terms of individuals performing the behaviour with respect the total number of individuals, we can suppose that allogrooming is expressed in A. mellifera but not to an extent that could effectively contrast the parasite pressure of Varroa destructor.'_

Finally, while they are clear (to their credit) to point out the limitations of their observational methods and conclusions it is interesting to consider how this behavioral trait is impacted on the colony level strictly by the constraints placed on the colony itself. Specifically, these observations were made with single-frame observation hives and I think all of us who have worked with bees for any length of time can appreciate both the level and degree of specialization that is inherently limited by the size and needs of an individual colony. In this case, one might expect to see allogrooming expressed in larger measure in a healthy and well-equipped colony that is free to devote more resources to this specific effort.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ..........In this case, one might expect to see allogrooming expressed in larger measure in a healthy and well-equipped colony that is free to devote more resources to this specific effort.


Which, btw, may have some synergy with the hive designs where the bees have to expand less time/energy into maintaining the basic, macro-level vital conditions (i.e. temp and humidity). Looking at your Warre hives.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Looking at your Warre hives.


Good point, GregV. There is a lot to like about the Warre hives and I can see the appeal to them from numerous angles, overall colony health being one of them.

That said, the lack of frames (at least in my case) makes for difficult and risk-filled manipulations. Frames would be a must for me if I were to think about utilizing Warres in a production application.

I will be watching your efforts along these lines with great interest.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

A couple interesting things I stumbled across this week:

1. PSU Pollinator Webinar Series- Dr. Margarita Lopez-Uribe and her team have put together a neat collection of webinars over the next two months focusing on pollinators. While not constrained to Western Honey Bees, I am looking forward to the presentations. The first one this week dealt with environmental challenges from a pollinator's perspective and it was really interesting: https://lopezuribelab.com/2020/05/23/pollinator-webinar-series-summer-2020/

2. Map My DCA- Ms. Julia Mahood has begun what looks like an ambitious project to locate and study drone congregation areas across the globe using UAV's. A hobby beekeeper from right here in the Bluegrass actually captured some video footage of a DCA that she found:

http://mapmydca.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enG0jzgv0Jo


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Good point, GregV. There is a lot to like about the Warre hives and I can see the appeal to them from numerous angles, overall colony health being one of them.
> 
> That said, the lack of frames (at least in my case) makes for difficult and risk-filled manipulations. Frames would be a must for me if I were to think about utilizing Warres in a production application.
> 
> I will be watching your efforts along these lines with great interest.
> 
> Russ


Of course my "Warre" style hives will be framed - that is 100%.
Here is my proto-type (watch at 3:00 how a little child can pick up a box of this particular hive).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ2Q8Iqi2Jk


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Of course my "Warre" style hives will be framed - that is 100%.
> Here is my proto-type (watch at 3:00 how a little child can pick up a box of this particular hive).
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ2Q8Iqi2Jk


That is interesting, GregV. I noticed that all of his colonies were configured 'warm way'. Are these boxes square such that you can run them 'cold way' too?

I noticed he was also running 9-frames. Is this box ID a bit larger than a Warre or is he running 1-1/4" frames?

Seems like a good approach- one of the real appeals to me of Warre beekeeping is the simplicity of the set-up, at least from a woodenware standpoint.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> That is interesting, GregV. I noticed that all of his colonies were configured 'warm way'. Are these boxes square such that you can run them 'cold way' too?
> 
> I noticed he was also running 9-frames. Is this box ID a bit larger than a Warre or is he running 1-1/4" frames?
> 
> Seems like a good approach- one of the real appeals to me of Warre beekeeping is the simplicity of the set-up, at least from a woodenware standpoint.


He cut his boxes only the "warm way" because how he likes them.
I think the dimension would allow to also do the "cold way" if he bothered to cut them so.
The box is a tad larger than the Warre-proper (9-frame vs. 8 frame). 
He is running 35 mm(1-3/8") frames - which makes his boxes nominally 13-1/2" x 13-1/2"

My boxes internally will be same - nominally 13-1/2" x 13-1/2" - so to fit my current frames for the compatibility.
This amounts to 9-frame square hive - just a tad too big as 8-frame maybe be more optimal, but I need to be compatible to my long-hives for resources transfers. 
One can always insert a dummy frame to reduce the active cross-section for cold season if so desired.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> One can always insert a dummy frame to reduce the active cross-section for cold season if so desired.


Seriously considering doing this if there are empty frames on the outsides, as there often are. I think one could just slip sheets of cardboard into the gaps to close off some extra space.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Seriously considering doing this if there are empty frames on the outsides, as there often are. I think one could just slip sheets of cardboard into the gaps to close off some extra space.


I have done this too; it is all working fine.
The main thing I want to try out - small cross-section boxes and truly working by a box (while still being fully-framed).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> My boxes internally will be same - nominally 13-1/2" x 13-1/2" - so to fit my current frames for the compatibility.





GregV said:


> The main thing I want to try out - small cross-section boxes and truly working by a box (while still being fully-framed).


GregV:

I am looking forward to reading about your progress as this project unfolds. I can see a lot of potential advantages to this approach, and other than the fact that you end up with a taller, narrower aspect ratio and more boxes to have to dig through for manipulations, the simplicity and flexibility of the 'one size fits all' box has a lot of appeal to me.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> I have done this too; it is all working fine.
> The main thing I want to try out - small cross-section boxes and truly working by a box (while still being fully-framed).


The 8 frame Lang, deep is Kinda like this with smaller cross section, I get less winter die outs with the smaller cross section.
The 5 frame is to fickle, leave it for 3 weeks and it swarms, to much mnagement time.

let us know how it works.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Neat presentation referred to recently on 'Bee-L', hosted by Dr. David Tarpy at NC State University.

At about the 15 minute mark, his guest speaker Dr. Debbie Delaney from the University of Delaware, who gives about a 30 minute talk on genetic diversity and ecotype development within honeybees- interesting stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI9uuSUtpZI

~ 28 minutes- She discusses general morphological and behavioral differences between subspecies.

~ 35 minutes- She discusses honeybees in the Americas.

~ 38 minutes- She discusses their 'Feral Bee Project' which compared the morphology of extant feral stock across North Carolina with the known morphology of the mellifera/caucasica group and the carnica/ligustica group respectively and concluded 'we have mutts'. 

While it wasn't substantiated with hard evidence, she surmised that maybe 1/6th of the feral stock they ran across was of a base older than recent swarm escapes, particularly in more isolated parts of the state.


----------



## Litsinger

Interesting study published in the journal 'Nature' yesterday dealing with in-hive vibrational dynamics preceding swarming.

While the fundamentals of monitoring and evaluating algorithms is above my depth, there were two practical findings they substantiated that are interesting to me on a very practical level, namely:

_‘… our ethological approach provides strong evidence in support of the theory of the queen piping being a colony-level communication to aid the worker population in the co-ordination of the release of queens by conveying information about how many queens are free and encapsulated to avoid competition between them (as described in Winston). In the undisturbed colonies, if it were not for the worker bees actively keeping the encapsulated gynes captive, then two or more queens would be observed tooting contemporaneously (this is never heard in the raw accelerometer recording). The timings of our logged toots and quacks are very much in line with the work of Grooters, further substantiating their conclusions that queen tooting was an important mechanism for the prevention of rival queen emergence. Our results also further substantiate the well-accepted idea that only mobile queens produce tooting signals, since the issue of secondary swarms consistently resulted in the abrupt cessation of tooting, even if only for a few hours.’_

_‘We have demonstrated that such natural behaviour can be lost through invasive inspections, resulting in the early release of a virgin queen, so that more than one mobile queen is present within the hive. This is not a natural situation for the colony, which otherwise delivers an orderly release of gynes in relation to swarming events. This also supports the suggestion that tooting acts to aid in the prevention of the simultaneous emergence of rival queens, as during physical inspections by beekeepers, tooting would be interrupted on each frame as it is removed for inspection, allowing the opportunity for the encapsulated gyne to make the final cuts to the cell cap and emerge from its cell. It may also be suggested that the swarming event itself may stimulate the emergence of encapsulated gynes.’_


----------



## Gray Goose

the tooting makes sense "ready or not here I come" Take some bees and leave or meet me at high noon, on the comb of choice.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> the tooting makes sense "ready or not here I come" Take some bees and leave or meet me at high noon, on the comb of choice.


Thanks for the feedback, GG. I apologize for my delay in reply as I have not had the opportunity to sit-down and catch up on the forum lately. The fascinating part to me was the bit about the active role that the workers play in keeping the mature queens captive in their cells until they are ready to release them as a function of natural primary and secondary swarm issuance.

How's everything going with your bee operations these days?

Have a great day.

Russ


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## Litsinger

I am going to try to tie a few loose ends together as succinctly as I can:

1. Final Swarm Record- I observed 24 swarms this year and successfully hived 17 of them. Had 12 overwintered colonies and one of these (a Warre) I suspect is now queenless, so I am sitting at 28 queenright colonies at-present.

2. Summer Mite Counts- I've attached the 48 hour drops for the 14 colonies which have screened bottom boards. A few observations:

Mite counts are generally higher this year than last year, and appear to be trending upward for colonies which have overwintered.

Swarming in-and-of-itself does not appear to 'reset' the mite drops (i.e. #1804).

As might be expected, the colony with the largest bee population (#1910) also has the highest mite drop. This colony has not swarmed and has drawn-out three full boxes of comb this season.

If using mite drop counts as the sole variable to determine propagation fitness, the only colony that might show promise is #1909- but even they likely have not been around long enough to assess fitness.

From the outset I have recognized the limitations of 48-hour drop counts (due in no small part because it gives you no clear idea of infestation rate), but have been using it as a 'minimum cut-line' to evaluate stock suitability and possibly predict future outcomes based on Dr. Seeley's work - specifically: 

_'Colonies with mite-drop counts below 30 mites/48 h had nearly zero mortality, but colonies with mite-drop counts above 30 mites/48 h suffered higher mortality, reaching 100% when count was 90+ mites/48 h.'_

While I have seen very few crawlers to-date and no shriveled wings, the attached results suggest I might be in for a very rough Fall (no pun intended). I have robbing screens at the ready to deploy at the first sign of trouble with any of the colonies.

View attachment 2020 Swarm Record (06.25.20).pdf
View attachment 48-Hour Mite Drops (06.24.20).pdf


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## Litsinger

If you haven't watched it yet, the recent webinar hosted by New York Bee Wellness with Mr. Randy Oliver has a brief and interesting presentation of Randy's resistant breeding program progress (1:24 - 1:28): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXjDSD92ILs

In short:

They set a <3% infestation rate after one full year of no treatments as the threshold for propagation. In 2018, less than 2% of their breeding stock met this criteria and as of this Spring 7% did.

He explains how it is possible that a colony might be resistant on the whole as the result of even a single patriline, and the queen of that resistant colony may have no genes which are conferring resistance. 

Randy outlined why this underscores the need to conduct progeny testing of all breeder queens to truly validate the value of a particular queen. Specifically, he gives the example of a queen who mates with 20 drones:

If the colony-level resistance is as a result of a dominant trait from a single patriline, the queen's daughters have only a 1/20th chance of expressing similar resistance.

If the colony-level resistance is as a result of a dominant trait in the queen's make-up, the queen's daughters half a 50/50 chance of expressing similar resistance.


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## gww

russ
Nice report with interesting observations and info. I have never had a hive strong enough to draw three boxes worth of comb in one season. This year is my best with two swarms drawing two medium boxes so far. My previous experience on all hives with two boxes or less of existing comb is between 13 to 17 new frames drawn. Thought that might interest you.
Cheers
gww


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Thanks for the feedback, GG. I apologize for my delay in reply as I have not had the opportunity to sit-down and catch up on the forum lately. The fascinating part to me was the bit about the active role that the workers play in keeping the mature queens captive in their cells until they are ready to release them as a function of natural primary and secondary swarm issuance.
> 
> How's everything going with your bee operations these days?
> 
> Have a great day.
> 
> Russ


well often the bees pick the egg to be the queen, so keeping them from destroying each other is likely their responsibility.
AS if I look at the "WHY" the queen is in her cell and would not have a very accurate assessment of "are we superseding or are we swarming or what is the gig for me"

the bees are out in the hive they know ,,hey as soon as this storm is over we are out for the swarm, then she can hatch and take over. So the planning seems with the bees, the fighting seems with the queen, Of course this is opinion 

as far as the season, with the swarm I caught over fathers day weekend, I now have 22 laying queens in hives and 2 NUCs hatching queens and working to pick up a couple more queens, in a few days from a local source. I think i end up with 26-28 for fall.
I am resetting the trap I brought back 2 days ago but I think the week of july 13 I start collecting them and putting the frames on the growing NUCS, and start to ready them for winter config. Flow is just getting started here with the yellow clover blooming and the White just starting. Somewhat depends on rain now. 
So wrap up splits and swarming, winter prep the new ones, extract, some what in that order over the next 6-8 weeks.

GG


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## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> From the outset I have recognized the limitations of 48-hour drop counts (due in no small part because it gives you no clear idea of infestation rate), but have been using it as a 'minimum cut-line' to evaluate stock suitability and possibly predict future outcomes based on Dr. Seeley's work - specifically:
> 
> 'Colonies with mite-drop counts below 30 mites/48 h had nearly zero mortality, but colonies with mite-drop counts above 30 mites/48 h suffered higher mortality, reaching 100% when count was 90+ mites/48 h.'


Just for clarification this is a full sized sticky board underneath an untreated hive? If so I have high hopes of remaining TF. Worst of two hives is typically 1 to 3 mites in 24 hours. Occasional zeros or 4s, one single spike of about 12. This was about a month after raising a bunch of drones so may have been end of life for the older mites. Or may have coincided with them beginning to kick the drones out. One of the few 4s was the next day after an inspection. Figure me moving frames and disturbing the bees caused the drop.

Also have a nuc that I am unable to monitor. It kicked out all of its drones (my fault it even had them!) a week or two before the larger hive. It is starting to grow fast since moving it from a plastic Pro Nuc to a divided 10 frame a few weeks ago.

Have not done a sugar shake / alcohol wash yet but plan to do all three hives around the first of August. Then it will be decision time...


----------



## msl

> He explains how it is possible that a colony might be resistant on the whole as the result of even a single patriline, and the queen of that resistant colony may have no genes which are conferring resistance. Randy outlined why this underscores the need to conduct progeny testing of all breeder queens to truly validate the value of a particular queen. Specifically, he gives the example of a queen who mates with 20 drones:


that is one of the reasons SDI is a powerful tool for isolation of traits and producing breeders



> If the colony-level resistance is as a result of a dominant trait in the queen's make-up, the queen's daughters half a 50/50 chance of expressing similar resistance.


and there is a 50/50 each of her drones will 

the good thing about some traits such VSH is they are addtive, so they don't get masked by a domaint one are are expressed if present 
Grabbing a snip from Glen apiarys page 


> Additive genes are polygenic that lack dominance. Simply put, the more of these genes are present, the more the trait is expressed.
> This slide shows that the 50% level is reached in one generation. A cross of about 50% VSH seems to be a good productive and mite resistant bee. Note again that pure VSH drones are produced from any pure VSH queen, no matter who she mated with. As more drones start to carry the trait, more of the trait will be expressed.


This shows the power of a good breeder queen, not just the performance of her daughters out crossed work force, but all of her daughters drones that are unaffected by the out cross as they have no father
you cant link there photos but compare the effect of an additive trait (VSH) 
http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetic_aspects_queen_production_3.html
with a recessive one (Cordovan) and a dominant one (Tracheal mite resistance)
http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetics.html


We see the additive effect in the USDA pol-line program


> The significant responses to V. destructor by Pol-line bees are noteworthy because of the repeated outcrossing (up to four generations in a queen line) and the relatively low percentage of original VSH parentage (x¯¯¯=46%; range = 33–54 %) in the pedigrees of the 15 Pol-line colonies that we bioassayed. This suggests that the VSH trait, once infused into a population, subsequently can be maintained for at least several generations by relatively simple selection.


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-015-0413-7


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> hought that might interest you.


GWW:

Thank you for your feedback. I do sincerely appreciate it. This year is the first year I have had overwintered colonies that from my perspective were able to grow to full-strength without swarming- and I was curious if this might evoke subsequent failure due to mite load as a result of no brood break. 

While time will tell, it is interesting (and sobering) to see how high the mite drop in #1910 has risen to- up to this point this colony has had respectably low mite drop numbers.

I am interested to let this play-out and learn if smaller colony sizes and annual swarming is in-fact a prerequisite to successful TF beekeeping in my locale. 

Additionally, I wonder whether the increased mite numbers are simply a result of latent mite load that builds in each subsequent season that a colony successfully overwinters.

A lot to consider and observe- thanks again for your input.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I think i end up with 26-28 for fall.



GG:

Thank you for your reply- it appears that the research supports your suggestion that the bees responsible for tending to the ripe queen cells appear to make the decision as to when to let the gynes out- in response to the presence or absence of queen piping. Amazing to me how interconnected all the roles are in a super-organism.

It sounds as if you have made very admirable progress in your increase efforts, and just in time to capitalize on the flow in your area- good for you.

Anything of particular note or any promising results on the genetic front in your yard?

Thanks again for all your help and feedback- I do appreciate it!

Russ


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## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> Just for clarification this is a full sized sticky board underneath an untreated hive?
> 
> ...
> 
> Have not done a sugar shake / alcohol wash yet but plan to do all three hives around the first of August. Then it will be decision time...


William:

Good to hear from you- and glad to hear that all is progressing well in your yard. 

You are correct that the mite drop totals I have been reporting are the total number of mites counted on a full-sized evaluation board after 48 hours.

For reference, I have been conducting these counts four times annually, coinciding with the change in season. This differs from Dr. Seeley's work as he conducted the counts three times annually- Pre-Swarm Season (early May), Post-Primary Swarm Season (late July) and Post-Secondary Swarm Season (late September) in upstate New York.

It is also worth noting that as a function of this project he held colony cavity volume constant as the focus of the experiment was to simulate feral colony dynamics and observe the resultant outcomes.

All that said, I would be cautiously optimistic that you can remain TF based on your reported mite drop values and the fact that your colonies have come from stock that has been propagated TF.

All-in-all, I think mite drop evaluations are a good introductory assessment of the total mite load in a colony. For me I started doing this as a 'go-no go' evaluation of whether I might expect a colony to survive the Winter and to gain some sense of mite load dynamics in a TF context. That said, I have observed that it does however suffer from two significant limitations:

1. As previously noted, it gives you no indication of the actual infestation rate within the colony. It tells you how many mites fell to the bottom over a given period of observation, but gives you no idea of how this relates to the percentage of mites to bees in the colony.

2. It suffers from a lack of repeatability- at least in contexts where the colony itself is taking active measures to remove phoretic mites (i.e. 'mite biting'). I'll follow-up with a post tomorrow outlining the results of a little experiment I have been conducting the last couple days that I think might help underscore this point.

In summary, I think the mite drop counts are a useful tool, and certainly give you some idea of the number of mites in a given hive. But at the end of the day, the mite wash test remains the only sure-fire way that I know of to get a fairly accurate picture of the infestation rate- so I think you're wise to plan on executing one this Fall to make decisions by.

Glad you chimed-in. Please always feel welcome to share your input.

Russ


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> that is one of the reasons SDI is a powerful tool for isolation of traits and producing breeders
> 
> ...
> 
> and there is a 50/50 each of her drones will
> 
> ...
> 
> This shows the power of a good breeder queen, not just the performance of her daughters out crossed work force, but all of her daughters drones that are unaffected by the out cross as they have no father
> 
> ...
> 
> We see the additive effect in the USDA pol-line program


MSL:

Great feedback. I finally had the opportunity to sit down and read through the information you posted. Reminded me that I still know and understand very little about honeybee genetics.

I first had to look up what 'SDI' is- for those like me, it is 'Single-Drone Insemination' and it is outlined in the following paper as:

_'...Single Drone Insemination (SDI) is the key to quickly increase the VSH trait (or any other trait for that matter) in a population of bees. As the queens are inseminated with only one drone - instead of normally around ten – one is ensured that all worker bees have the same mother and the same father. This will strongly reduce the variability of the genetic background of the worker bees as only from the queen’s side genes can come from two sets of chromosomes (female bees are diploid). From the drone’s side (which is haploid), only the same set of genes can be inherited by the worker bee. This will then result in the worker bees from a single colony (who are sisters) being on average 75% genetically identical, as all the workers will inherit the same genes from their father and only the genes inherited from their mother will differ and that difference will be 50% on average. This will create a very uniform colony with worker bees expressing a very similar behavior.'_ 

https://aristabeeresearch.org/wp-co...le-Drone-project-2014-Results-11-feb-2015.pdf

While I can understand (if not fully-appreciate) what a powerful tool this is in working to fix traits, the thing I can't ever shake is this idea of sub-family specialization, and it's role in supporting the collective success of the super-organism.

I have not researched this, but has there ever been a program to evaluate multiple insemination of resistant queen stock with drones who come from colonies that express differing resistance mechanisms?

I do appreciate your feedback, and I learned a lot- thank you for the education.

Russ


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## AR1

Litsinger said:


> GWW:
> 
> I am interested to let this play-out and learn if smaller colony sizes and annual swarming is in-fact a prerequisite to successful TF beekeeping in my locale.
> 
> Additionally, I wonder whether the increased mite numbers are simply a result of latent mite load that builds in each subsequent season that a colony successfully overwinters.
> 
> Russ


Hi Russ. This is my strong suspicion. My current operating theory is that without regular swarms or induced brood breaks (assuming decently resistant bees), a given colony has one to two years max. I have no honest idea if this is true at my own place with my current bees. So far all looks well. Drone larvae I squashed today was all varroa-free, in a hive that was a split this spring and then swarmed in May. 

My hope for next year is to have a few colonies I will isolate at the farm and just leave alone, and observe what happens to them, while continuing to manipulate the back-yard hives with brood breaks and drone larvae culling, and smaller hives.


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## AR1

Litsinger said:


> William:
> 
> 
> All-in-all, I think mite drop evaluations are a good introductory assessment of the total mite load in a colony. For me I started doing this as a 'go-no go' evaluation of whether I might expect a colony to survive the Winter and to gain some sense of mite load dynamics in a TF context. That said, I have observed that it does however suffer from two significant limitations:
> 
> 1. As previously noted, it gives you no indication of the actual infestation rate within the colony. It tells you how many mites fell to the bottom over a given period of observation, but gives you no idea of how this relates to the percentage of mites to bees in the colony.
> 
> 2. It suffers from a lack of repeatability- at least in contexts where the colony itself is taking active measures to remove phoretic mites (i.e. 'mite biting'). I'll follow-up with a post tomorrow outlining the results of a little experiment I have been conducting the last couple days that I think might help underscore this point.
> 
> In summary, I think the mite drop counts are a useful tool, and certainly give you some idea of the number of mites in a given hive. But at the end of the day, the mite wash test remains the only sure-fire way that I know of to get a fairly accurate picture of the infestation rate- so I think you're wise to plan on executing one this Fall to make decisions by.
> 
> Glad you chimed-in. Please always feel welcome to share your input.
> 
> Russ


I don't 100% agree with the above. Point one, that board counting doesn't give you an indication of the actual infection rate in the colony. It tells you how many mites actually fell. It does not tell you anything about capped cell mites, and gives you no hint about bee behaviors like grooming. It is a snapshot only, but a useful one if done consistently.

I guess my main problem is the statement that mite washes are more accurate. That only tells you how many mites are present outside cells, physically attached to bees. A nice number but it gives you little idea of the colony-level mite numbers. To do that you need an idea of how much capped drone brood there is, and how badly infected it is. Ratio of drone brood to worker brood is critical info. If you check mite numbers and the number is very low, but there is a huge amount of capped drone brood present, the mite number is worse than useless, it's a lie. It tells you nothing about where in the mite cycle you are. Your hive can be severely infected but have low phoretic mites today. Next week when all those drones hatch your number would be crazily different.

I guess my point is that no one number tells you much. Fall counts, alcohol counts, counts of mites in drone brood, all different numbers and all relevant. From a 'scientific' point of view, what matters is choosing a method and sticking to it consistently. Regularly doing fall counts or alcohol counts on a hive in a consistent manner, will show you the pattern of mite infestation as it rises and (hopefully) falls over the season. Once you have this information you can then observe the actual hive as a unit to get an idea if they are handling the mite load well or not. 

Point 2. I am interested to hear of your experiment!


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## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> William:
> 
> All that said, I would be cautiously optimistic that you can remain TF based on your reported mite drop values and the fact that your colonies have come from stock that has been propagated TF


That is reassuring. Both you and AR1 correct about no one number telling all. Just that a sticky board count is by far the easiest to do frequently. Alcohol wash requires suiting up, disturbing all the bees and killing 300. Want to do the drone brood count but my bees are not cooperating. Bought 6 of the Acorn green plastic frames (before I even had bees) one drawn, several partially drawn and nothing but syrup / nectar. Reluctant to yank out a mixed brood frame and start poking it with a fork. 

Was premature about the one hive kicking out all of its drones. Longer days and a shift in my work schedule was keeping me from seeing them. Nuc did kick most of its drones out. Witnessed this a few weeks ago, two workers tag teaming them out. Also was finding a few totally wingless drones crawling on the ground directly in front of the nuc. Scared me at first that it was severe DWV but read that they do sometimes rip wings off. 

Reminds me of something I have been meaning to share for months. A member of my local club witnessed an unusual drone eviction last fall. The workers were passing the drones off to baldfaced hornets! Very odd intra species cooperation as she said the hornets were totally ignoring workers as they waited.


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## AR1

William Bagwell said:


> That is reassuring. Both you and AR1 correct about no one number telling all. Just that a sticky board count is by far the easiest to do frequently. Alcohol wash requires suiting up, disturbing all the bees and killing 300. Want to do the drone brood count but my bees are not cooperating. Bought 6 of the Acorn green plastic frames (before I even had bees) one drawn, several partially drawn and nothing but syrup / nectar. Reluctant to yank out a mixed brood frame and start poking it with a fork.
> 
> Reminds me of something I have been meaning to share for months. A member of my local club witnessed an unusual drone eviction last fall. The workers were passing the drones off to baldfaced hornets! Very odd intra species cooperation as she said the hornets were totally ignoring workers as they waited.


4 years experience and one total collapse with 100% loss, so I know at least one way to kill bees. Not proven that I know how to keep them alive yet! 

I don't use drone frames. I just put a medium frame in the brood chamber beside the deep frames. The bees will usually draw drone comb under the lower edge in a nice even strip that is very easy to scrape off. They also put queen cells there so it's convenient to find them. I write 'SF' on the top bar so I can identify them without hunting around.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I don't 100% agree with the above. Point one, that board counting doesn't give you an indication of the actual infection rate in the colony. It tells you how many mites actually fell. It does not tell you anything about capped cell mites, and gives you no hint about bee behaviors like grooming. It is a snapshot only, but a useful one if done consistently.


AR1:

Thank you for your reply. I think we might be saying the same thing in a different way. As a wise friend of mine here on Beesource once pointed out, mite drops suffer chiefly from lacking a denominator. I know how many mites dropped over a given period of time (and this is a useful metric), but based on this single variable I am unable to define an infestation rate because I am not simultaneously estimating how many bees are in the hive or how this drop relates to the internal dynamics of the hive (at least in isolation).

I still think it is a very useful exercise- my only point is that by itself it may not tell the whole story... as I hope to outline in the next post.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I am interested to hear of your experiment!


I have always been concerned that my initial success without treating might be unsustainable based on both anecdotes and research I have read- and the most recent recorded mite drops might be a foreshadowing of an inevitable collapse in the making.

To summarize, this season I started with four (4) colonies which have overwintered twice and eight (8) colonies which have overwintered once. After numerous swarms, the current apiary count stands at twenty-eight (28). Of these 28, fourteen (14) are installed on screened bottom boards.

Up to this point, I have never observed 48-hour mite drop totals much over thirty (30) at any point in the season. 

The most recent drops however were much higher overall, suggesting that mite populations in general are higher than they have been previously, possibly portending significant challenges this Fall.

When exploring potential mechanisms which have lead to low mite population growth through the season, 'mite biting' has been evaluated.

In connection with the recent mite drop results, mite biting was also evaluated as follows:

#1803- 80%
#1804- 40%
#1907- 70%
#1909- 60%
#1910- 80%
#1911- 90%
#1912- 90%
#2002- 40%
#2003- 40%
#2004- 70%
#2005 (N)- N/A
#2008- 20%
#2013- 60%
#2014 (N)- 50%

The primary observation from these data:

Mite biting percentage does not necessarily equate linearly to mite reproductive success- specifically:

1. There are colonies which (as one might expect) have a lower mite biting percentage and a higher mite drop (i.e. #1804).

2. There are colonies which have a lower mite biting percentage but also have a low mite drop (i.e. #1909).

3. There are colonies which have a higher mite biting percentage but also have a high mite drop (i.e. #1910).

So what is one to make of these data in conjunction? At this point I do not know.

This exercise got me wondering as to whether mite drop totals are a consistent and repeatable measure for evaluation purposes, so I decided to record mite drops every twenty-four (24) hours for three (3) days and compare them to the previous recorded value for the three (3) hives with the highest mite counts (#1804, #1910 and #2002 respectively) as follows:

Hive # / Initial Reading / June 27th / June 28th / June 29th / Initial Reading 24 Hour Average / Follow-Up 24 Hour Average

#1804 / 75 / 15 / 22 / 17 / 38 / 18

#1910 / 115 / 46 / 51 / 64 / 58 / 54

#2002 / 70 / 43 / 45 / 47 / 35 / 45

A larger dataset is no doubt in order, but it is interesting to see the difference both in the daily totals, the two-day totals and the average difference between any 48 hour period of evaluation.

It is worth noting however that in 2 of the 3 hives the net effect is the same- 48 hour mite drop totals above 30.


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## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> Reminds me of something I have been meaning to share for months. A member of my local club witnessed an unusual drone eviction last fall. The workers were passing the drones off to baldfaced hornets! Very odd intra species cooperation as she said the hornets were totally ignoring workers as they waited.


William:

Thank you for your post- this is an interesting observation indeed- were they able to get any footage of this?


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## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> William:
> 
> Thank you for your post- this is an interesting observation indeed- were they able to get any footage of this?


Not aware of any. Looking forward to real meetings to resume, on-line is just not the same


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## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> ... on-line is just not the same


William:

I certainly identify with this sentiment- while technology is great and I am grateful for immediate access to information it is impossible to replace face-to-face interactions and the opportunity to learn by being mentored.


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## Litsinger

I FINALLY had the opportunity to read the widely-circulated 'Varroa destructor: A Complex Parasite, Crippling Honey Bees Worldwide' paper prepared by Dr. Kirsten Traynor et al.

As noted in the 'Highlights', the paper was prepared as an academic survey of, _'... recent developments in the biology, pathology, and management of varroa, and integrate older knowledge that is less well known.'_

From my very humble perspective it is a great high-level review of the current body of knowledge relative to the complex interaction between varroa and honeybees.

A few of the observations which were noteworthy to me:

Virus Vectoring

_'In theory … all of these_ [bee infecting] _viruses can be transmitted by varroa. However, in practice only Deformed wing virus (DWV) and Acute bee paralysis virus (ABPV) have a clear varroa–vector relationship. Both DWV and ABPV have several major co-circulating variants that differ in virulence characteristics. Sacbrood virus (SBV) does not seem to be transmitted directly by varroa but is a co-factor in natural varroa resistance/survival and virus adaptation, DWV-induced bee mortality, general virus–host interactions and immunity, intervirus competition, and varroa behavior.' _

Virus Virulence / Host Interactions 

_'If virulence is not punished, it will proliferate.'_

_'SBV induces pollen aversion in bees and has therefore a strong effect on nursing, division of labor, foraging, and bee nutritional status, which themselves play major roles in varroa-virus virulence.'

'The cost of DWV-B’s higher individual-level virulence, relative to DWV-A, in both varroa and honey bees, is greater neurological impairment of its bee or mite host, which can be either beneficial or detrimental at the social level, depending on colony developmental stage, the dominant local DWV strain, and especially the contrasting effects of virulence on social hygienic behavior.'

'The colony-level symptoms of DWV in autumn are therefore important features of varroa survival and transmission between colonies. The colony-level symptoms and mortality associated with varroa-vectored ABPV infections occur earlier in the summer, prior to the robbing season, hence missing the opportunity to transfer varroa into colonies capable of overwintering.'

'Viral infection can also impair honey bees’ social immunity defenses. For example, DWV-infected honey bees are less able to differentiate between varroa-infested and noninfested pupae. Moreover, ABPV-infected pupae are efficiently removed by varroa-sensitive hygienic (VSH) behavior, while DWV-infected pupae are not, which favors varroa-mediated transmission of DWV over ABPV. Similarly, hygienic bees preferentially identify and remove pupae infected with the more virulent DWV-B variant, thus helping the less virulent DWV-A variant to persist in the population.'_

Hygienic Behavior is a Brood-Driven Mechanism

_'New research shows that brood-related traits in A. mellifera could contribute to hygienic behavior, VSH, and the suppression of mite reproduction. Brood frames transplanted from nonhygienic to hygienic hives and vice versa produced hygienic scores correlated with the donor colony, rather than the recipient colony._

Genotypic Plasticity complicates Marker-Based Selection 

_'… varroa resistance mechanisms may also be presenting a degree of genotypic plasticity, that is, different biochemical pathways (with presumably different underlying genetic control) ultimately result in similar phenotypes. However, these are mostly behavioral traits, and are thus also subject to colony-level dynamics and their internal and environmental drivers, which could be further sources of poor congruency.'

'If… genotypic plasticity… is occurring, that would mean that different honey bee populations may have different genetic or expression markers, which would complicate the utility of this approach.'_

Finally, there is a great supplementary video associated with the survey which gives a basic outline of the mite population cycle superimposed over the honeybee population cycle:

https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j....7935577d-96e4-40e4-a18d-3ea752843e1a/mmc2.mp4


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## AR1

Great article. Thanks. I thought section this interesting:

Viruses, Varroa Thresholds, and Virulence Management
If virulence is not punished, it will proliferate. Keeping weak colonies alive during winter, through intensive varroa management or by combining with strong colonies, encourages the transmission and survival of virulent varroa and virus traits, much like reinvasion [40
]. One of the most important, and least adopted, practices in virulence management is culling, which is largely absent in beekeeping other than for American foulbrood (AFB). Since the only host for varroa is the honey bee, which is overwhelmingly controlled by beekeepers, culling would be particularly effective for removing inadequate honey bee genetics and virulent varroa-virus traits...


GregV has had some thoughts on this issue and the problems with combining weak and strong hives.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> If virulence is not punished, it will proliferate.


AR1:

Glad you enjoyed the research paper, and I do apologize for the delay in reply. It has been difficult of late to carve-out time to participate in the forum.

I too found the discussion on virulence and the beekeeper's role in it interesting. While a detailed grasp of the distinction between DWV-A and B (and now C?) is beyond my reach at present, it does seem to be reminiscent of the idea of benign bacterial colonization insofar that if one assumes that the DWV virus is going to be around regardless, it would be better to have bees that tolerate the prevalent local strain better and/or eliminate hosts for the more virulent variants.

https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/11/5/426/htm


----------



## Litsinger

Everything remains relatively quiet here in the bee yard. The partridge pea has begun to bloom in earnest and has the bees very active in the early morning while the nectar holds out. 

Hive #1905 is definitely queenless and has dwindled significantly. I will plan on letting them hold the fort down as long as they can and bust them apart hopefully when I can find a cooler day with less risk of making an absolute mess of the tear-down. This hive cast at least three swarms that I am aware of this Spring and I assume they were unsuccessful in re-queening after the final cast swarm.

In other negative news, Hive #2019 absconded. It is unclear to me what led to their failure, but they left behind only five (5) frames of comb partially drawn out so it is plain they had trouble right out of the gate. They were a small secondary swarm cast near the end of the swarm season.

Otherwise, there is been virtually no sign of DWV nor crawlers to-date which surprises me based on the mite drop numbers I recorded last month. We'll see what the next month or two brings.

The colonies without slatted racks (especially the Warre hives) are now bearding quite a bit, though not as extensively as last year. The attached photo is Hive #2001. Unless I have a change of heart, I plan on leaving them just as-is to see if they are successfully able to overwinter in a double-Warre set-up. If I've done the math correctly, two Warre boxes should be similar in volume to that of a single 10-frame Langstroth Deep- and I know several commercial beekeepers in my area that overwinter successfully in a single (often with a little sugar on top for insurance).


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> GregV has had some thoughts on this issue and the problems with combining weak and strong hives.


Technically, not about "combining weak and strong hives".

But rather about combining ONLY those units that have low mite infestations and will mutually benefit from stronger populations.
Mite infestation measurements are needed before combining decisions are made.
Combining with a high mite count unit will result in certain loss of two units, making things worse (not better).

High mite counts in my contest will mean one thing - terminating such units and harvesting them out (just like skep culling historically).


----------



## BigBlackBirds

GregV said:


> Technically, not about "combining weak and strong hives".
> 
> But rather about combining ONLY those units that have low mite infestations and will mutually benefit from stronger populations.
> Mite infestation measurements are needed before combining decisions are made.
> Combining with a high mite count unit will result in certain loss of two units, making things worse (not better).
> 
> High mite counts in my contest will mean one thing - terminating such units and harvesting them out (just like skep culling historically).


I tend to have similar feeling on combinations. Merging colonies was always the norm when i was growing up and I never really even thought much about combinations. But once we started raising our own queens I pretty much gave up the practice as it makes it really hard to compare colonies and make a final decision on stock selection. These days in the spring i might combine colonies or transfer frames around more readily but the mite counts are so low then it doesnt matter. Once we reach this stage of the year, I'm only willing to combine in very specific cases and for sure I'm going to have a good handle on the mite counts. ive had enough experience with taking pure mite resistant queen and sticking her with a pile of mite infested bees. there is just so little time for her to make enough brood to even have a fighting chance. end up just causing myself a mess.


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## Litsinger

BigBlackBirds said:


> ive had enough experience with taking pure mite resistant queen and sticking her with a pile of mite infested bees. there is just so little time for her to make enough brood to even have a fighting chance. end up just causing myself a mess.


BigBlackBirds:

I appreciate you sharing this feedback. It makes intuitive sense to me, but your personal experience with it makes me want to be all the more circumspect when considering the prospect of combining colonies- thanks for providing your experience. I sincerely appreciate it.

Russ


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## Litsinger

It's another sweltering day here in the Commonwealth- this July we have had 22 days to-date with daytime highs above 90 degrees F and also a consecutive run of 19 days of 90 plus temperatures.

Thankfully, we have had no drought conditions this year, and we are running approximately 5 inches above our average precipitation to-date.

I currently have twenty-seven colonies, which is down from a brief high of thirty colonies housed in boxes at the end of swarm season.

I came out of the winter with 12 colonies and the only overwintered colony that has failed to-date is #1908- I inadvertently misidentified this colony in my post from July 21st as #1905: 



Litsinger said:


> Hive #1905 is definitely queenless and has dwindled significantly. I will plan on letting them hold the fort down as long as they can and bust them apart hopefully when I can find a cooler day with less risk of making an absolute mess of the tear-down. This hive cast at least three swarms that I am aware of this Spring and I assume they were unsuccessful in re-queening after the final cast swarm.


This colony cast a primary swarm on April 16th that now resides in Hive #2002.

I always find it interesting how much difference slatted racks make in the bearding department. Today I took the attached photo of two hives (#2004 and #2007) respectively which were hived within three days of each other and are hived in identical equipment but for #2004 having a slatted rack.

I picked-up two nice eight-frame Brushy Mountain hive set-ups this week, complete with full boxes of drawn comb that is largely in good shape.

I've also spent quite a lot of time recently comparing the overall outside dimensions of eight-frame equipment among the various manufacturers to determine a good fit for new equipment that will integrate with my existing equipment which was purchased from a now defunct manufacturer.

Ultimately I made purchases from both Betterbee and Dadant as their eight-frame specifications correlate to the 13 3/4" X 19 7/8" footprint of my existing equipment.

Finally, I am starting to see the first signs of Early Goldenrod bloom, making it about a week earlier than last year.


----------



## squarepeg

nice post, way to go russ.


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## gww

russ
First year, I had similar experience with slatted racks and decided I liked them.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> nice post, way to go russ.


Thank you, SP. How are things faring in your apiary?


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> russ
> First year, I had similar experience with slatted racks and decided I liked them.
> Cheers
> gww


Thanks, GWW. I recall reading that you employ them as a rule. I have been pleasantly surprised that they do not appear to significantly contribute to SHB build-up. Now as to whether there is a significant benefit to reducing boarding, I suppose this is anyone's guess...

Did your brood troubles end up playing out or is it still ongoing?


----------



## gww

I still have two questionable hives and I have not really tore into any of them hard to look at more then honey and drawn comb on the swarms. 

I have no ambition to look further right at the moment and it is hot out here too. I got more that may go and have the old hive with a queen cell and so some risk there too. I will know more in the sept/oct area when I start seeing pollen come into the hives. None coming in now that I can see. When there is, they should be raising brood and I will look again.

I will put an update to my post someday if I do get off my butt.
You sound like things are going ok except for equipment cost to house all those bees.
Cheers
gww

Ps Not really from looking to know for sure but I do have small worrys of the ones doing better, running out of room but yet seems very late to add any room to them and so I don't know what to do but just watch.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I will put an update to my post someday if I do get off my butt.
> You sound like things are going ok except for equipment cost to house all those bees.


GWW:

I will look forward to your update when you can- I can certainly identify with how difficult it is to get motivated in heat like this. I also contemplated adding some room to a few new swarm starts this year but decided against it this late in the season due to a lack of drawn comb. If I were in your shoes and had comb available, I might give it a go- especially if SHB's are not too bad.

Regarding equipment- I thankfully was awarded an apicultural grant from the Kentucky Department of Agriculture so that helps soften the blow. I still have to prep and paint the equipment however .


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## gww

Russ


> Regarding equipment- I thankfully was awarded an apicultural grant from the Kentucky Department of Agriculture so that helps soften the blow. I still have to prep and paint the equipment however
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Good for you.
Cheers
gww


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ....I thankfully was awarded an *apicultural grant* from the Kentucky Department of Agriculture so that helps soften the blow. I still have to prep and paint the equipment however .


Do tell!
What is the scoop?


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Do tell!
> What is the scoop?


Thanks, GregV. Long story short, Kentucky has a state Agricultural Development Board that dispenses Tobacco Settlement money to Kentucky farmers to help them diversify away from an obviously changing market dynamic surrounding tobacco. 

As a function of this I was able to participate in two programs in the past twelve months:

1. The Small Scale Farm Grant- Administered by Kentucky State University, is is a direct grant that is tied to an approved project. What makes it unique is that you receive the money up-front and then you keep them posted on how you spent it. I utilized this grant to purchase a significant amount of woodenware that kept me going this Spring.

2. The County Agricultural Investment Program- Administrated by our county Conservation Office, it is a 50/50 match reimbursement for qualified expenses in approved program areas. I utilized this grant to further fill out our orchard and buy more woodenware in anticipation for next year.

Best of luck to you with the rest of your Summer beekeeping efforts.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Thanks Russ.
Too bad I don't qualify.
LOL


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Thanks Russ.
> Too bad I don't qualify.
> LOL


Maybe I can claim my garden of tobacco is competing with Kentucky growers and get them to pay me to stop growing it?

I am currently stymied by lack of equipment right now. I have boxes but don't have frames. Frameless hives are essentially illegal in Illinois. The law says you have to be set up to allow inspectors easy access to comb. 

This winter I'll have to see if I can talk the good wife into letting me buy a box of unassembled frames. Much cheaper, but the cheapest box I saw was about $100. She doesn't like to spend money on hobbies. I need to get an inspection so I can sell a couple of nucs.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I also contemplated adding some room to a few new swarm starts this year but decided against it this late in the season due to a lack of drawn comb. If I were in your shoes and had comb available, I might give it a go- especially if SHB's are not too bad.


Yesterday's high of 77 degrees F prompted me to take my own advice and tear-down Hive #1908 and distribute the resources among new swarm starts.

When I cracked this Warre open I found approximately 3 dozen bees and no signs of any attempts to raise drones- other than a little bit of wax moth evidence it appeared that the cupboards were bare.

The colony itself was comprised of two full boxes of nice brood comb on approximately 1-1/2 centers, or eight combs occupying ten top bars (photos attached). There was also one frame in the third box which appeared to have been recently drawn out askew which will have to be carefully removed and hopefully reattached square to a top bar.

I took the two boxes of drawn comb and nadired one each to colonies 2009 and 2012 respectively- both were previously two boxes tall and had a good heft to them when I picked them up. Thus far, it appears that for my locale the three-tall Warre set-up is the 'sweet spot' for employing these volumes as 'genetic resources'.

Otherwise, the bees continue to work the Partridge Pea hard in the early morning hours and are bringing in only meager amounts of pollen. The goldenrod (both Canada and Riddell's) have begin blooming in earnest here on the farm, and the boneset looks to start blooming in the next week or so.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Too bad I don't qualify.





AR1 said:


> Maybe I can claim my garden of tobacco is competing with Kentucky growers and get them to pay me to stop growing it?


GregV and AR1:

I did a quick bit of research, and while it does not look like either Illinois or Wisconsin have a program similar to Kentucky's, it does appear that you both might have access to some grant opportunities that are unique to the Midwest.

In particular, it appears that free grant writing assistance is available to residents of both Illinois and Wisconsin via a SARE grant:

https://michaelfields.org/grant-advising-resources/

Additionally, it appears you both have access to habitat grant funding if this is something that interests you:

https://beeandbutterflyfund.org/habitat-programs/seed-a-legacy-program/illinois-application
https://beeandbutterflyfund.org/habitat-programs/seed-a-legacy-program/wisconsin-application

https://www2.illinois.gov/dnr/grants/Pages/Habitat-Funding-Opportunity.aspx
https://www.wisfarmer.com/story/new...ney-bee-pollinator-habitat-funding/100847098/

I hope all is well in your respective bee-yards. Have a great week.

Russ


----------



## Gray Goose

nice to hear your are tinkering with your bees Russ.
Good move IMO on nadiring the 2 swarms with comb.
will keep the comb from getting spoiled and give them some later season room.

the early, not sure which goldenrod is blooming here as well.

GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Good move IMO on nadiring the 2 swarms with comb.
> will keep the comb from getting spoiled and give them some later season room.


GG:

Thank you for the encouragement-I've been reading your various posts throughout Beesource but have kind of lost track- after all the dust settled, where are you currently at in terms of colony numbers? Have you built-up enough of a bench to feel good about your ongoing TF prospects going into winter?


----------



## Gray Goose

I am at 24 hives to date. Most of the swarm traps are pulled. this week I will get the last 3 in and nadir the comb, presumed empty, to growing smaller colonies, similar to what you did.
And the trap boards go on this weekend... so starts the saga on extraction 2020

I did get the pine logs cut and have a full plate of build projects for this winter.

no rest for the wicked, I guess.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I am at 24 hives to date. Most of the swarm traps are pulled. this week I will get the last 3 in and nadir the comb, presumed empty, to growing smaller colonies, similar to what you did.
> And the trap boards go on this weekend... so starts the saga on extraction 2020
> 
> I did get the pine logs cut and have a full plate of build projects for this winter.
> 
> no rest for the wicked, I guess.
> 
> GG


Gray Goose:

Thank you for your update, and I do apologize for the delay in reply- I have been away from the computer.

It sounds like you have made a good return on your surviving colonies from last year so hopefully you will have an abundance of resources to continue to build from next year.

Speaking of building stuff, I envy your ability to harvest timber from your own land and process it to the finished woodenware product. While I can understand and appreciate the amount of work that it takes to make your own equipment, I imagine it is gratifying to work with this woodenware, knowing your own hands made it.

Glad to hear that all is well in your yard- here's hoping those nadired boxes get filled and capped so you have options this Fall.

Russ


----------



## Gray Goose

Hi Russ,

Thanks for the encouragement. Well buying a bunch of wide boards was a Bit pricey. 

We clear cut a 15 acre part in the hunting property and these few Pines stood well above the open area, the harvester and the timber advisor stated these tall pines would either blow over or be lightning targets. More or less needed to decide on the spot while the skidders were in the bush.

Hopefully a lifetime supply for me.






















Yes the 1 up north survivor,, I did walk away 2 times and is now 3, caught 3 swarms, took up 2 splits, so the shed is back up to 8 production colonies.

I am hoping this winter I have better survival.
It is a good feeling to have all the wooden ware and built frames back with bees, And I added 100 deep frames and 50 or so medium this year.

Have a productive Fall.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Hopefully a lifetime supply for me.


GG:

That is a lot of board-feet of timber! Hopefully some of your younger kinfolk take a real shine to beekeeping and thank you posthumously as they take advantage of your investment of time, energy and skill in preparing all that woodenware (after you get to use it for a long, long time of course). 

I am glad to hear that you have all your equipment full and that you caught a few swarms- based on where you had your traps out, do you expect they come from unmanaged colonies?

I also (based loosely on your previous advice) nadired eight colonies this past weekend with the drawn comb I recently came into if for no other reason than to avoid having to store and protect it- I am beginning to think this is in general a great idea provided that the colony in question is able to adequately patrol the volume.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> From my very humble perspective it is a great high-level review of the current body of knowledge relative to the complex interaction between varroa and honeybees.


Recently, while exploring the distinction between SMR (Suppressed Mite Reproduction) and MNR (Mite Non Reproduction) I came across the following paper published this Spring In the _International Journal for Parasitology_ which is another through survey of resistance mechanisms in honeybees:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002075192030093X?

As noted, _…we conducted a literature survey of all studies documenting phenotypic features (i.e., traits) of A. mellifera populations either selectively bred or naturally selected for resistance and tolerance towards varroa. We evaluated 153 studies in total, published between 1984 and 2019. For each study we reviewed, we asked the following questions: (i) Were the bees selectively bred or naturally selected? (ii) What are the investigated traits and are they similar across studies and populations? (iii) Are there common molecular pathways involved in different studies and populations? Our aim was to systematically evaluate the most promising traits of varroa-surviving bees to help direct future research efforts and selective breeding programs._

There were several interesting items of note to me:

SMR versus MNR 

_We propose here to rename the phenotypic feature of high mite non-reproduction as MNR because it may be derived from both VSH activity and an effect of bee brood. We recommend reserving the term SMR for non-reproduction of mites that is induced solely by the brood._

In other words, I understand this to mean that the authors propose reserving the term SMR to refer only to those traits exhibited by brood which stifle mite reproduction. All other contributions by adult bees and/or the mites themselves would fall under the new catch-all definition of ‘MNR’.

Low Mite Population Growth

_Low MPG has been confirmed in 25 out of these 31 studies [of surviving populations], comprising 95% of the studied populations (19 out of 20). This confirms that in most surviving populations, the ability of colonies to maintain mite numbers below a damaging level is a central feature. Varroa resistance mechanisms, rather than tolerance mechanisms, are thus more likely to explain honey bee survival with Varroa infestations.

The factor most strongly associated with low MPG was a high frequency of non-reproducing varroa foundresses._

Diverse and Complementary Resistance Mechanisms

_Interestingly, beyond MNR and VSH, recapping is also frequently verified to have an important role; it has been identified in seven different studies documenting eight different populations

These comparative phenotypic analyses highlight the diversity of traits that appear to play roles in different surviving populations; no universal mechanism for survival emerged from this literature survey. In most cases, survival of both naturally and artificially selected populations is due to the expression of several traits that appear to collectively confer resilience to varroa infestation. This seems true for the naturally selected populations as well as for the populations specifically bred for one or several traits.

The most striking result from this literature survey is the lack of overlap in the findings across studies. This has several potential explanations: (i) the different traits do not involve the same genetic pathways, (ii) the subspecies or populations of A. mellifera are different across studies and express the same trait through different molecular pathways, (iii) the protocols used to phenotype the bees are different and (iv) the technologies used are different.

However, it is possible that such a ‘one size fits all’ marker does not exist, if different populations of honey bees are undergoing divergent evolution of varroa resistance traits – an idea that is consistent with the generally poor overlap between ‘omics studies discussed above.

Interestingly, studies investigating A. mellifera resistance traits in surviving populations often report multiple traits of significant value, and high variation across colonies (Locke, 2016). This suggests that it is the accumulation of multiple resistance traits that enables colonies to survive, and not one major trait._

Limitations of Survival-Based Selection

_Even though the ability of honey bee colonies to survive varroa without mite control stands as the ultimate goal of varroa resistance and tolerance selection, using “survival” as the only phenotype may be dangerous since it may be dependent on many other factors besides varroa. Our literature review revealed that low MPG is a common downstream result in surviving populations. This highlights three important aspects for methodological development: (i) low MPG can result from many different traits operating alone or in combination; (ii) it can also be influenced by many environmental and beekeeping factors; and (iii) standing as a central feature of varroa-resistant populations, evaluating MPG may be the most robust phenotyping method to assess mite resistance._


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> GG:
> 
> That is a lot of board-feet of timber! Hopefully some of your younger kinfolk take a real shine to beekeeping and thank you posthumously as they take advantage of your investment of time, energy and skill in preparing all that woodenware (after you get to use it for a long, long time of course).
> 
> I am glad to hear that you have all your equipment full and that you caught a few swarms- based on where you had your traps out, do you expect they come from unmanaged colonies?
> 
> I also (based loosely on your previous advice) nadired eight colonies this past weekend with the drawn comb I recently came into if for no other reason than to avoid having to store and protect it- I am beginning to think this is in general a great idea provided that the colony in question is able to adequately patrol the volume.


All caught swarms came from someones "hives" One guy I know has bad health issues and told my dad he did not have time for the bees this year. his queens over wintered so I have 2 of the prime swarms and we will see how it goes. the 3rd is in an area with lots of backyard hives as well.

I like the nadir this time of year as it gives cluster space and more comb depth for winter. Do let me know how these winter. after I extract I have about 5 to do my self, they are full of bees and heavy , Like 1 deep of honey. fingers crossed for next spring.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I like the nadir this time of year as it gives cluster space and more comb depth for winter.


GG:

Thank you for your reply- I apologize for my delay in responding.

The other thing I like about nadiring is that provided wax moths and small hive beetles can be kept in check, there seems to be little harm in having the excess volume below the cluster in the event they are unable to fill and process this comb prior to closing-out the season. I ended-up with several empties on the bottom of colonies this past Winter and it was an easy resource for supering once the Spring flow started.

I am also reminded just how valuable drawn comb is- several of the colonies with nadired comb are currently working like mad to fill them with nectar. Had I put an empty box on the bottom of a colony this time of year they would simply ignore it.

It is a dearth of drawn comb that helps me understand what King Richard III meant when he opined, _"A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse."_


----------



## Litsinger

Around here, the partridge pea is really enticing to the bees just now. 

I planted about 4 acres of it last year as a part of a conservation planting, and currently the air is electric with foraging bees during the early morning hours until the sun gets hot.

It is interesting to watch 2 and 3 and sometimes 4 bees vie for access to a single flower.


----------



## Litsinger

This weekend, I finally got around to constructing Version 2.0 of my _'High Swarm Getter Downer'_, loosely based on Mr. Daniel Schoenthal's 'Queen's Throne':

http://thequeensthrone.org/

Ultimately, I ended up using a Pro-Nuc for the catch receptacle and the guts from a 4" paint brush for the attachment means.

The only real issue I can foresee is that when the telescoping pole is fully-extended to 24 feet long, I expect the narrowest diameter pole could fail when stressed by the weight of a cluster and the resultant moment-arm if/when it gets to swaying in the breeze. As such, I plan to only extend the last pole out for more 'pedestrian' retrievals.

At this point, if I had it to do over again I might try to scrounge-up a professional-grade poly-carbonate extension pole in lieu of the hollow aluminum pole I am currently employing.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Around here, the *partridge pea* is really enticing to the bees just now.
> .....


I may be seeing some of this around - did not know what it was.
But only a little.

I spied a not managed, trashy water way in a new construction area close by - need to go there few times this fall and spread some seeds of insect value (clovers and such). Should make for a good pasture.
During the droughts (like we have now here), any moist lowland becomes of value.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> ... need to go there few times this fall and spread some seeds of insect value (clovers and such).


GregV:

Thank you for your reply. I apologize for my delay as I haven't had nary a moment to visit the forum recently. I think the idea of helping to 'nudge' along more pollinator habitat is a great idea, particularly when it is flora that is native or adaptive to our respective locations. 

For my part, I need to go check the Common Milkweed pods at my neighbor's farm soon as I have inventions of dispersing this seed in my pollinator habitat on my place. It looks to be about ready.


----------



## Litsinger

The Fall Flow is officially on here in Western Kentucky. While the Late Goldenrod has not really come into it's own just yet, the Boneset is blooming profusely and the bees are working it heavily throughout the day. 

Most colonies also appear to be moving along with some brood rearing as well and are bringing in a steady supply of Ragweed pollen.

I feel for those here on the forum who have had a dry year. For us, it has been a very favorable Summer after a good and protracted Spring with timely rains all along the way- as such, most farmers in our region are expecting bumper crops. 

At present, we are sitting at about eight inches above-normal rainfall year-to-date and I have thankfully been able to avoid any supplemental feeding to-date.

Most of my beekeeping efforts of late have been devoted to getting more woodenware appropriately prepared and painted in time for Winter preps as I have eight hived swarms that currently occupy boxes of various improvised means such as inner covers for bottom boards and plywood cut-offs for lids.

Planned next steps beyond properly outfitting the swarms will include a 48 hour mite drop assessment near the Autumn Solstice and a harvest and distribution of resources by early October- The long-range forecast suggests a colder and wetter October than average for us.


----------



## AR1

Been very similar here, plenty of rain, nicely timed. The last few weeks have been very dry, but we just got a decent shower. 

I laughed at your 'improvised' materials like plywood for tops. That's almost my standard. I ran out of tops, bottoms and deeps. Way behind on materials. Hope to have more time this fall and winter to catch up.


----------



## gww

Russ
It sounds like you described my area fall flow position and bloom stage.
Look busy don't they?








I did mow in front of the hives finally after this pic. but have not weed eatered it yet.
Thanks for the report.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Gray Goose

Russ


"Most of my beekeeping efforts of late have been devoted to getting more woodenware appropriately prepared and painted in time for Winter preps as I have eight hived swarms that currently occupy boxes of various improvised means such as inner covers for bottom boards and plywood cut-offs for lids."

this is the norm for fall, every thing some what in use and few non standard one to boot.
No Worries you will have some stuff in the spring to use.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I need to go check the Common Milkweed pods at my neighbor's farm soon as I have inventions of dispersing this seed in my pollinator habitat on my place. It looks to be about ready.


This week, I was able to harvest a respectable number of Common milkweed pods along with some Wild bergamot, Illinois bundleflower and Joe-Pye weed seed for frost seeding this Winter. 

Our local Private Lands Biologist with the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife came by and declared last year's conservation cover planting a success. He was not so complementary of the pollinator habitat planting however, saying it will be best to execute a controlled burn on it this Winter to minimize cool-season growth and encourage establishment of the warm season grasses. The bees are really digging the Boneset (technically Thoroughwort) right now, however...


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I laughed at your 'improvised' materials like plywood for tops. That's almost my standard.


AR1:

No disrespect intended at all regarding the use of alternative means to put hives together. If you know any engineers, you know that we thrive on order and consistency- so the new bottom boards and lids are more for me than they are for the bees...


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Look busy don't they?


Looking good, GWW. Glad to see that things are shaping-up for you to have a decent fall flow.

Did any of your hives with brood issues pull through? Have you noticed any similar issues emerging in your hived swarms?

How's your guitar playing coming along?


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> No Worries you will have some stuff in the spring to use.


Thank you for the reply, GG. Should I take your message as prophetic?


----------



## gww

Russ


> Did any of your hives with brood issues pull through? Have you noticed any similar issues emerging in your hived swarms?
> 
> How's your guitar playing coming along?


I still have one that is bringing in pollen with less traffic and need to look inside.
I added a bad super of comb to the other small swarm and it did have some deformed bees on the inter cover but I did not look at the brood. I did take 7 more gal of honey and so only got 9 this year but did leave 5 gal on two of the bigger swarms as my hedge hives encase the rest of the hive don't gather well during fall flow. So I can't make a mistake on those two unless they run out of room and swarm in fall. I will look at the others oct first and hoping not to feed again. I will look sometime soon at the one problem hive I have left with my fingers crossed.


Guitar? I am still working every day and have made some improvement. My memory hurts me even on songs I know the chords on due to just losing track as I play. It is harder then I thought it would be but I keep pegging along. I am very inconsistent. Some times I think I am good and most times I think I am bad. One month in playing every day. No playing scales for me yet, just practice on songs.
I am sure I could learn a lot from you.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I will look at the others oct first and hoping not to feed again. I will look sometime soon at the one problem hive I have left with my fingers crossed.


GWW:

I do apologize for my delay in reply- I have been away from the computer of late. It sounds like win, lose or draw going forward you will still be near parity going into Winter relative to last year? I'd say all-in-all that's not too bad. 

I always like to keep tabs on your management decisions and timing as I know once I read you are doing something (i.e. Fall feeding) I need to be thinking about it to- so I do appreciate you posting your updates.



gww said:


> Some times I think I am good and most times I think I am bad. One month in playing every day. No playing scales for me yet, just practice on songs.


In this way I see so many parallels between guitar playing and beekeeping. After almost 30 years at it, there are still many days that I am tempted to throw my flattop against the wall in disgust- and then I will learn a new skill or overcome a long-held hurdle and it makes all the investment worth it.

I expect it won't be any time at all, and you will be playing every bit as well as Roy Clark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxDQQDF6j0Y


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## Litsinger

I finally had the opportunity to read the_ ‘Heritability estimates of the novel trait ‘suppressed in ovo virus infection’ in honey bees (Apis mellifera)’_ report recently published in _Scientific Reports_:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-71388-x

It is a bit of a dense read but they concluded, _… we discovered a new trait that renders honey bee eggs free of virus infection. We used the term ‘suppressed in ovo virus infection’ and demonstrated that the trait is heritable through the genotype of the queen, and not that of the worker, and can be expressed against several viruses simultaneously or against each of the viruses individually. The estimated heritability seems to be moderate with a value of about 0.25. The trait has a beneficial effect on the virus load of the colony as a whole with fewer and less severe DWV infections and its implementation into breeding programs is recommended._

This obviously would suggest a genetic basis for increased varroa tolerance in selected populations.

When one digs in deeper however, two other interesting observations were note-worthy to me:

1.	The trait does not make colonies immune to the viruses, but appears to assist in keeping them at survivable levels-

We hypothesized that the virus status of the egg is a reflection of the health status—and by extension of the immune potential—of the queen, though we never verified this. As this study was interwoven in a running breeding program, in which breeders tested the offspring of their most precious queens, this was impossible to do. However, we did verify what the SOV trait means in terms of virus infections in the different developmental stages and castes of the colony. And the outcome was very promising: it seems that the honey bee egg holds the key of resilience to virus infection. The SOV trait provides no sterile immunity against viruses as they are still present, but some yet unknown mechanism seems to avoid that later exposures to—for instance—DWV will end with harmful infection levels.

2.	The presence of the SOV trait may represent increased tolerance for one virus (i.e. DWV) in exchange for a reduced tolerance of another (i.e. ABPV)-
The occurrence of DWV and SBV in eggs was considerably lower in the DV-Q subgroup as compared to the DV + Q (descendants of virus-positive queens) and UQ subgroups. That was not the case for ABPV and BQCV (Fig. 1). And we found the most ABPV, DWV and SBV, in the DV-Q, UQ and DV + Q subgroups, respectively.


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## gww

Russ
I will never play as good as roy clark. In the bible it indicates that I only have about 120 years to do things and over half is over and my actions worked on bringing the other half down to a reasonable number. In conclusion, not enough time left threw in with not enough starting ability.

Every once in a while, I do wake up and find something easier then it was when I went to bed and I am amazed at how that can happen.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> In conclusion, not enough time left threw in with not enough starting ability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every once in a while, I do wake up and find something easier then it was when I went to bed and I am amazed at how that can happen.
> Cheers
> gww


This I understand, GWW. It is good for us to number our days and recognize all the good we enjoy comes from the LORD.

As it says in Psalm 90:10- As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years,
Or if due to strength, eighty years,
Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow;
For soon it is gone and we fly away.


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## Litsinger

Today I completed the Fall 48-hour mite drop and mite damage assessments for the seventeen colonies currently housed on screened bottom boards as attached.

A few observations:

1. Using the wise breeding stock evaluation criteria suggested by MSL, if I were to consider propagating any lines based strictly on low mite population growth over time it appears that #1803, #1907 and #1911 are the most promising.

2. There does not appear to be a linear correlation between time and number of mite drops. This time I carefully recorded mite drops on all colonies at both 24 and 48 hours and while the results are all over the place, two things emerged: 

A. One cannot assume that the 48 hour drop will be double the 24 hour drop.

B. Colonies with low/high 24 hour drops will have low/high 48 hour drops.

3. From outward observations, the only two colonies currently exhibiting any visible signs of mite trouble are #1804 (crawlers) and #2007 (damaged drone larvae on the bottom board). Amazingly, #1910 still shows no outward signs of mite stress and these evaluations underscore for me the complex interaction between tolerance and resistance.

4. While I completed mite damage assessments with the microscope, I am a little more circumspect about either how to interpret these data or how to use it in any potential propagation decisions. Specifically, there are two things that give me pause:

A. Significant mite damage does not necessarily equate to low mite population growth. Arguably #1910 exhibits both the highest percentage of mite damage and the most significant damage on the mites themselves but they continue to have high mite drops two evaluations in a row.

B. There appears to be little consensus on what ultimately constitutes a damaged mite. In our specific case I observe many mites which appear to have either damaged or a completely removed gnathosoma (mouthparts): https://idtools.org/id/mites/beemites/factsheet.php?name=15249

When asking around, I get conflicting information as to how to count this in the absence of other obvious mite damage. For what it is worth, I have confirmed with Dr. Brock Harpur that they basically ignore the mouthparts for the purposes of their evaluations but that others seem to put more weight into evaluating different mite damage mechanisms: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179329

For now, I will continue to keep noting what I see and attempt to be proactive in the event of any collapsing colonies. 

Otherwise, I currently have ten other colonies with solid bottom boards and so they remain a proverbial 'pig in a poke' for now.

View attachment 48-Hour Mite Drops.pdf


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## AR1

Nice to see someone with a engineering bent being numerical. I am too scatterbrained to be this methodical. 

Was this mite drop count with the bees as is, or was it following a treatment of some sort?


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## William Bagwell

Thanks for this. Have been counting mites on sticky boards for months but only seriously recording counts for about three weeks. Daily whenever possibly for the one with high counts (28 average) and less often for the others (1 - 6 average)

Have observed sudden spikes that last several days so would not be comfortable relying on less frequent checks this time of year. Will try to post some data in my thread soon.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Was this mite drop count with the bees as is, or was it following a treatment of some sort?


Thanks, AR1. The current three year experiment is without any treatments of any kind, either mechanical or chemical. I am not dogmatic about this, just decided to start with simple first and see what develops.


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## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> Will try to post some data in my thread soon.


Thanks, William. I will look forward to comparing notes with you.

Hope your season close-out efforts are going well. You all had a good Fall flow down there?


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## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> Hope your season close-out efforts are going well. You all had a good Fall flow down there?


Would not call it good. AFAIK this area of Georgia never has a strong fall flow. Got rain recently so there is at least some flow and the bees seem happy. Was in two hives this weekend and noted lots of stores, both green syrup and honey.


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## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Thanks, AR1. The current three year experiment is without any treatments of any kind, either mechanical or chemical. I am not dogmatic about this, just decided to start with simple first and see what develops.


That's what I thought, just wanted to verify.
4 of my hives now have shop towels with oxalic. That's a first for me but I have tried Apivar a few times. Currently 4 hives with towels and 4 without.

Next week I will do some deep diving to see what there is to see.


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## msl

As usual, good stuff!



> 2. There does not appear to be a linear correlation between time and number of mite drops


one of the reasons it has fallen by the wayside as a method, daily count can swing up or down by a factor of 2 














http://scientificbeekeeping.com/tag/alcohol-wash/


> Amazingly, #1910 still shows no outward signs of mite stress and these evaluations underscore for me the complex interaction between tolerance and resistance.





> Arguably #1910 exhibits both the highest percentage of mite damage and the most significant damage on the mites themselves but they continue to have high mite drops two evaluations in a row.


perhaps
2nd issue with NMF is you have to compare apples to apples... same pop size, same amount of brood, etc. it doesn't give you a % witch makes hive to hive comparison 
3rd issue is it measures mites on the floor, not mites on the bees. #1910 as an example. They are biters, the grooming may be knocking off a high number of undamaged mites giving you more on the sticky board and less on the bees compared to the other hives, so there mite load could be lower as the mites may be ending up on the board 

Your doing a lot of work to record you data. I would offer the suggestion to collect better data, a shake or wash.. wash prefered, but I get why some don't like it. 
it would be particularly interesting to know the wash numbers of #1910 as that would tell you weather or not they indeed have tolerance (living with a high mite load) or resistance (keeping the mite load down). That knowledge will help you with breeding choices


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## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> Got rain recently so there is at least some flow and the bees seem happy. Was in two hives this weekend and noted lots of stores, both green syrup and honey.


Glad to hear it, William. Best of success to you in getting your hives set-up for Winter.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Currently 4 hives with towels and 4 without.


Understood. Hopefully you are able to derive a reliable method in the future to determine which colonies need a little help and which don't so you can see how your lines do in the absence of treatment. Best of luck to you in getting things closed-out.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> Your doing a lot of work to record you data. I would offer the suggestion to collect better data, a shake or wash.. wash prefered, but I get why some don't like it.
> it would be particularly interesting to know the wash numbers of #1910 as that would tell you weather or not they indeed have tolerance (living with a high mite load) or resistance (keeping the mite load down). That knowledge will help you with breeding choices


MSL:

Thank you for your detailed and helpful feedback. I sincerely appreciate it. I enjoyed the Randy Oliver article, and I was particularly interested to note how his 24-hour mite drop results compared to the alcohol wash- makes intuitive sense to me.

I think you are absolutely right that a wash would be a much better tool for evaluation. I suppose I always figured it would be a more time-intensive method than the mite drop counts, but I am certain that I spend more than the 4 minutes per hive collecting data that Randy suggests he can do a mite wash in.

There is no doubt that the NMF (Natural Mite Fall Method- I had to look that one up) suffers from the huge limitation of not telling you anything about the hive population and thus does not directly tell you anything about the infestation rate.

That said, I do hold out hope that over time it may represent an analog that serves as a first-pass evaluation tool that likely should be augmented with a corresponding wash on promising colonies- because as you rightly point out I am only left to hope and speculate about #1910 with no other baseline information to compare against.

Thanks again for the input- I appreciate it.

Rus


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## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> In this way I see so many parallels between guitar playing and beekeeping. After almost 30 years at it, there are still many days that I am tempted to throw my flattop against the wall in disgust- and then I will learn a new skill or overcome a long-held hurdle and it makes all the investment worth it.
> 
> I expect it won't be any time at all, and you will be playing every bit as well as Roy Clark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxDQQDF6j0Y


I have almost 40 in guitar and I've yet to run into anyone who doesn't want to burn their stuff occasionally. From the start I've been amazed that something you practice and absolutely cannot get will often be possible a week later, when the only thing you've done is sleep. 

Here's a preview clip we do before the streaming service at church a while back. https://www.instagram.com/p/BqN0kG7Fwfh/ (shameless plug)

I had a friend who was ripped like an Olympian. He said his childhood friends would ask what the best exercise routine was for this or that. He always answered something you really enjoy doing 3 times a week, doesn't matter what. That will yield results. If you don't like it, you won't do it. With guitar, 5 minutes a few set days a week will do more good than 8 hours straight once a month. Grandpa (who taught choirs to read shape notes decades ago) said, "Your talent is your want to." Roy Clark is a loftier goal than I ever set, but you can be good, and 60 years will not stop you. Record yourself and record again in 4-5 months. You and everyone else will be amazed with your progress! 

As for bees, I enjoy them, but still kill them frequently. I hope you are right Litsinger, and some discipline starts translating.


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## gww

Joe
I have recorded myself on the computer and all I can say is halting and choppy.

Just a suggestion. You might consider putting you location where people can see it, not that I am good enough at geography that it always helps me. With bee discussions and weather, it is pretty helpful to know the where. I looked at your short video and your fingers seem fast and true to me.
Cheers
gww


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## joebeewhisperer

Thanks GWW, I was just throwing in my 2 cents on keeping the location in the new site format on here a few days ago. Didn't realize I had left it out. I'm an hour North of Chattanooga TN, 2nd range of what we call mountains. Elevation 1800-1900', so temps are about 5 degrees cooler than the city or surrounding valleys all year. 

Keep at the guitar. If you don't give up, it will.


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Grandpa (who taught choirs to read shape notes decades ago) said, "Your talent is your want to."


Joe:

Great post- your grandpa sounds like he was quite a wise soul, and I find shape note music very beguiling. One of my favorites:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5Pa3jFTQLM



joebeewhisperer said:


> As for bees, I enjoy them, but still kill them frequently. I hope you are right Litsinger, and some discipline starts translating.


This is where I see such a parallel between beekeeping and playing a musical instrument- while I am progressively becoming better at the guitar each passing year (albeit agonizingly slowly), I am making some progress... and I still play bad notes and still kill bees in the process.

Also- I do both primarily for my enjoyment and the satisfaction I gain from participating in the fellowship of those who share in the craft. 

So when it is all said and done, the final measure of success for me is, 'am I having fun, and is what I am doing contributing in a meaningful way to those around me?'

Glad you chimed-in. Please feel welcome to comment anytime.

Russ


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## gww

Russ


> , and is what I am doing contributing in a meaningful way to those around me?'


I so agree and this is why I quit playing when people get around me. It has to be some sorta meaningful contribution to not put them through my practices.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I so agree and this is why I quit playing when people get around me.


GWW:

At various points in my life (and even now) I have alternately been both the best and the worst musician playing in a group of folks. In these settings I have observed two things:

1. I can normally learn something from everyone, no matter their skill level. We all have inherent skills and approaches to playing and even the novice can often teach something to an expert.

2. If you know your place, you can easily fit in and contribute. It may only be playing a few rhythm chords or singing some harmony in the choruses but the result is still better than you not jumping in.

Finally, I bet your grandkids think you are a musical genius- and if nothing else, your time sharing with them the joy of music will be something that sticks with them the rest of their lives.

Best of success to you in your continued musical development.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Late this week I completed the last in-hive inspection of all colonies for the season- and the overarching result of the evaluations is that I can now confidently declare that I am no beekeeper.

In summary, all the overwintered colonies have sufficient but not excess stores. The new swarm starts are largely short on stores and I will have to do some soul-searching to decide whether to provide any supplemental feeding as the only nectar source left around here is the frost aster.

The lowlights

1.	While away on vacation last week we experienced two nights with lows near 40 degrees F. This was enough to finish-off colonies 2014 and 2016, which were found empty and picked-clean when I returned home.

2.	I elected not to feed any colonies this year and I may come to thoroughly regret this decision early in the new year. All the swarm starts drew out at least one full 8-frame Illinois box and some drew out near two boxes- but none have more than one box of surplus nectar currently at their disposal.

3.	I harvested zero surplus nectar off any of the overwintered colonies. This is the second year in which I have observed significant nectar in the colonies following the Spring flow only to find them exhausted at the end of the season (fool me once…). I am considering two changes for next year:

a.	Close-off all upper entrances early in the season once foraging begins in earnest.
b.	Pull surplus nectar at the end of June like everyone else around me does.

4.	I inadvertently dumped the queen from 1910 on the ground while consolidating the colony and did not know it until 24 hours later when I found her on the ground surrounded by a retinue. I picked her up and put her back in the colony- we’ll see…

5.	Several colonies had ant colonies established in the top insulation. A reminder that I need to remove the insulation in the Spring and not reinstall it until cool weather commences.

The highlights

1.	While the seven overwintered Langstroth colonies afforded me no surplus nectar, they did produce approximately 60 drawn foundationless frames- which I found clean and largely empty. I have removed these for use in the Spring.

2.	I installed a Broodminder ‘Citizen Science Kit’ on Colony 2011. My intention is to use one ten-frame Langstroth colony as a ‘benchmark’ in succeeding years to give me some real-time representative indications of hive dynamics and flows.

3.	Otherwise the bee populations look good in all the colonies and there were no obvious signs of disease or wax moth / SHB predation (save 2014 and 2016 of course).

Curiosities

1.	While I did not pull out every frame in every box, I did not find any brood (open or sealed). I do not have enough experience to interpret whether this is typical for this time of year but I would have expected to have found at least some capped brood at this point.

2.	I have observed quite a few drones still on the wing and dutifully returning to several hives, even those which are currently light on stores.

3.	The only overwintered colony that had any surplus nectar was 1911 (subsequently shared with 2005)- and this is the only colony that had their late season broodnest in the bottom of the stack. All other Langstroth colonies have the loose cluster in the top two boxes nearest the upper entrance and all stores and bee bread are located in these two boxes. Any other boxes with drawn comb below were empty without fail.

Winter Goals

This has been a year of challenging many of my preconceptions and assumptions about how to successfully manage honeybees in a treatment-free regime in my location. More than anything it has reinforced how little I really know about the dynamics of a typical colony and the mechanisms that confer success year-over-year.

Further I have again been disappointedly reminded how the management decisions we make (or lack thereof) throughout the year impact both the immediate results (i.e. surplus gathering) and the prospects going forward (i.e. viable overwintered colonies). 

Not only do I need to make better and timelier management decisions, I no doubt need to spend more time in the colonies which is likely an impossibility with my other ‘non-bee’ responsibilities.

Thus, before this week’s review I was working under the assumption of gathering significant surplus this Fall, shooting for 70% survival this Winter and preparing to have the capacity to be at approximately 40 colonies at the close of next year.

Now I am thinking I need to go back to ‘Beekeeping 101’ and learn how to successfully manage what I have before I even consider adding any more on top.

Likely the only decision left for me this year is whether to feed the colonies that are currently light- I am presently inclined to let them fend for themselves and see what’s left come Spring.


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## joebeewhisperer

Russ, at least you set out with goals, that is admirable. 

I have nothing to add on getting hives through the winter. I just moved a couple of 3-4 frame nucs into Lyson 6-frames today. Hoping I can feed and the extra R-value might get them to either finish drawing some frames (by enabling higher in-hive temps for another week or two) or at least pack the 5 frames I left them. 

I too was gone for a week and came back to some surprises. One Italian queen has been moved around as an egg laying machine/brood donor and she apparently went on strike for almost 3 weeks. There were about 50-60 eggs, no larvae and 20-30 capped brood. So far she seems to know what she's doing so maybe it's a natural brood break instinct or reaction to cool nights. 

Seeing your footer made me go back to Eccl 11 and read. Invest in a lot of things, keep planting regardless of how it looks (wind, clouds) and you may receive a return. Enjoy yourself, but be conscious of how you live. I think you are doing that. 

That's for the continuing saga. Hopefully we will learn how to keep bees.


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## gww

Russ


> Now I am thinking I need to go back to ‘Beekeeping 101’ and learn how to successfully manage what I have before I even consider adding any more on top.
> 
> Likely the only decision left for me this year is whether to feed the colonies that are currently light- I am presently inclined to let them fend for themselves and see what’s left come Spring.


Books help but I still lose a lot in the translation. 

Feeding, your decision as long as you know the risk and are willing to accept it. Everything is a learning experience in mind with mostly the goal of getting better from any tuition I have payed. I am too much of a hermit to ever become a teacher if I ever do get smart but at least I might enjoy some learning before I go. You actually communicate great and your future is bright no matter what you end up doing and learning from it. Wrong or not, I sorta push to the point of cruelty with my bees so I can really have an ideal of what is bottom so I might know what to work up from some day if I ever decide to. Others have already did that and wrote about it and so there are options to not repeat mistakes as often but either way is not wrong in my mind. As an experiment, you might feed one or two of your worst ones just to compare to the others. Just a suggestion.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Seeing your footer made me go back to Eccl 11 and read. Invest in a lot of things, keep planting regardless of how it looks (wind, clouds) and you may receive a return. Enjoy yourself, but be conscious of how you live. I think you are doing that.


Joe:

Thank you for your feedback- I sincerely appreciate it. I am curious to hear about your experiences with the Lyson hive bodies. I am intrigued by them, but have hesitated trying one due to how the ants and other critters around here seem to inevitably tunnel my top insulation until it becomes swiss cheese. Otherwise, I am convinced that the additional R-value certainly does no harm and may in-fact better mimic the inside of a tree cavity. I do hope you will keep us posted how they work out for you.

Overwintering is still quite a mystery to me as well, particularly considering what the internal mechanics are that guide an individual colony to rear winter bees of a particular population in the absence of disease relative to their available stores.

One thing I do know, I have had colonies survive on well less than half an 8-frame Illinois super of stores while the colony next door burned through a box-and-a-half.

I've always appreciated the book of Ecclesiastes for two reasons:

1. It reminds me of how fleeting our natural lives here on earth really are.

2. It frames our work in proper perspective in light of how short our span of life is.

I look forward to learning how to be more proficient in beekeeping right alongside you!

Thanks again for your contributions- have a great day.

Russ


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> As an experiment, you might feed one or two of your worst ones just to compare to the others. Just a suggestion.


GWW:

As always, I appreciate your perspective- you often help me frame things in the proper context.

After considering the situation I am in (and in the spirit of experimentation), I decided to feed only those founder colonies that I was convinced have no chance of survival without my intervention. In my specific situation, I elected to assist the following colonies: 2002, 2005 (nuc), 2010, 2011, 2016 and 2017.

My logic (flawed as it might be) was as follows:

1. Under no circumstances will I supplementally-feed an overwintered colony, particularly when I have not collected any rent from them.

2. Excluding beekeeper error, no Warre 'resource hive' gets any assistance.

With these ground-rules in place, I was left with eleven (11) new Langstroth colony starts from this year, and I elected to feed six (6) of them.

Without fail I discovered that the colonies I had noted as 'Light' during my inspections had some drawn comb in the upper entrance rim but it was either mostly or totally empty.

By contrast, the colonies I had noted as 'Marginal' during my inspections had a significant amount of open and closed nectar in the comb in the upper entrance rim. A good example of this is colony 2013 (photo attached).

Additionally, with the exception of 2002, all the hives that received supplemental feeding are later swarms. I struggled with whether to feed 2002 given that their early swarm date (April 16th) suggests this colony might not have what it takes- but the swarm queen overwintered in colony 1908- so who knows?

Also, I decided to experiment with feeding a 'sugar mush' generally along the lines of the recipe Mr. Bill Gibson with the Perry County Indiana Beekeeper's Association shared in the latest Purdue 'Winter Cluster' presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl9T1gVgwAs&list=PLgavttJPLt2ThxTgeG0Z0du32KQRHto2-&index=4

I mixed 50# of sugar with 10 cups of warm water in a 5-gallon bucket and distributed 3-4 scoops of the 'mush' to each colony atop a piece of tissue paper that is provided between sheets of wax foundation. An example of this is included from the photo of colony 2005 (attached).

I'll continue to monitor these colonies every week or so, and see how they progress in packing this slurry away.

Thanks again for all your help and input- I always appreciate it.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I'll continue to monitor these colonies every week or so, and see how they progress in packing this slurry away.


In hindsight it was way too early to put a non-liquid feed on the light colonies as it set them to diligently hauling it out and also set off some robbing pressure that resulted in me having to close-off the upper entrance to the one nuc (#2005) in my yard. So for now, I will hold-off on any additional feeding until we experience reliably colder weather.

At this point, all 25 colonies have set-up shop at the top of the stack, which is nice from the standpoint of being able to tell at a glance that they are still alive but not so nice for Spring manipulations.

The award for largest cluster goes to #1903 and arguably the runt award goes to #2012.

The early cool and wet weather this Fall has set the clover to growing and it looks like we are still a month away from a killing frost if the extended forecast holds. White Snakeroot and Frost Asters persist but the Goldenrod is played-out.

Even more importantly, the Woolly Bear around here predicts a mild winter, so this settles the Farmer's Almanac's prediction of Winter weather for the Ohio Valley being, _'... much warmer than what’s typical, despite some cold periods in early and mid-December, from late December into early January, and in late January.'_


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> In hindsight it was way too early to put a non-liquid feed on the light colonies .....


Just so it happened, I scored 100 pounds of fondant for free (well, for the cost of an hour of apple tree pruning consultation).
Fondant maybe usable as we speak.
I have no experience with fondant yet.


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## msl

> In hindsight it was way too early to put a non-liquid feed on the light colonies


That was my sense of it, but your source seemed solid enuff I decided not to challenge it as I don't do a lot of it 

for me anyway, liquid feed for as late in the year as you can, I want feed in the combs we it belongs.

MT camp /sugar blocks/fondant put on later as an insurance policy on lighter hives


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Just so it happened, I scored 100 pounds of fondant for free (well, for the cost of an hour of apple tree pruning consultation).


Sounds like a good trade to me... I'll have to figure out what I can swap with you to consult me on my orchard- the last two years have been an exercise in finding creative ways to fail.

Speaking of failure...



msl said:


> That was my sense of it, but your source seemed solid enuff I decided not to challenge it as I don't do a lot of it
> 
> for me anyway, liquid feed for as late in the year as you can, I want feed in the combs we it belongs.
> 
> MT camp /sugar blocks/fondant put on later as an insurance policy on lighter hives


Thanks for your feedback, MSL. To be fair, I took quite a bit of liberty with his approach and I am in a little warmer climate than he, so less than stellar results might have been expected. I do however take solace in the sentiment that Thomas Edison once famously deadpanned, _ ‘Results! Why, man, I have gotten a lot of results! I know several thousand things that won’t work.’_


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> GWW:
> 
> As always, I appreciate your perspective- you often help me frame things in the proper context.
> 
> After considering the situation I am in (and in the spirit of experimentation), I decided to feed only those founder colonies that I was convinced have no chance of survival without my intervention. In my specific situation, I elected to assist the following colonies: 2002, 2005 (nuc), 2010, 2011, 2016 and 2017.
> 
> My logic (flawed as it might be) was as follows:
> 
> 1. Under no circumstances will I supplementally-feed an overwintered colony, particularly when I have not collected any rent from them.
> 
> 2. Excluding beekeeper error, no Warre 'resource hive' gets any assistance.
> 
> With these ground-rules in place, I was left with eleven (11) new Langstroth colony starts from this year, and I elected to feed six (6) of them.
> 
> Without fail I discovered that the colonies I had noted as 'Light' during my inspections had some drawn comb in the upper entrance rim but it was either mostly or totally empty.
> 
> By contrast, the colonies I had noted as 'Marginal' during my inspections had a significant amount of open and closed nectar in the comb in the upper entrance rim. A good example of this is colony 2013 (photo attached).
> 
> Additionally, with the exception of 2002, all the hives that received supplemental feeding are later swarms. I struggled with whether to feed 2002 given that their early swarm date (April 16th) suggests this colony might not have what it takes- but the swarm queen overwintered in colony 1908- so who knows?
> 
> Also, I decided to experiment with feeding a 'sugar mush' generally along the lines of the recipe Mr. Bill Gibson with the Perry County Indiana Beekeeper's Association shared in the latest Purdue 'Winter Cluster' presentation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mixed 50# of sugar with 10 cups of warm water in a 5-gallon bucket and distributed 3-4 scoops of the 'mush' to each colony atop a piece of tissue paper that is provided between sheets of wax foundation. An example of this is included from the photo of colony 2005 (attached).
> 
> I'll continue to monitor these colonies every week or so, and see how they progress in packing this slurry away.
> 
> Thanks again for all your help and input- I always appreciate it.
> 
> Russ
> 
> View attachment 58749
> View attachment 58751


Hi Russ,

odd you have no honey to take, AND have light stores.
2 thoughts come to mind
1) race of bee, do they turn all stores into bees?
2) location, location, location, of the Apiary?

I have bees now in 6 different places, 2 are only 5 miles apart.
EVERY place behaves somewhat different, I would encourage you to "shop around" for a better place.
think about the dearth's in your locale, and where is something blooming at that time else where?
Reason being, apart from the drive (one site I have is a 4 hour drive) it takes as much time to do beekeeping when you have no crop as it does to get a crop, sometime with feeding, more time.

another idea is that "bees" could be your crop, IE sell NUCs

IMO unless you have a big farm planting stuff is not the best choice to increase flow.

good luck wintering, i had 2 , I fed of 24 this fall, I liked the genetics. 

will watch your thread for updates. Also I plan to do some "Buckeye" hive builds this winter, so I may offer some pics of that process.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> odd you have no honey to take, AND have light stores.
> 2 thoughts come to mind
> 1) race of bee, do they turn all stores into bees?
> 2) location, location, location, of the Apiary?


GG:

Thank you for your response. I always appreciate your insights. I make no excuses and offer no concrete explanations for the storage woes. One thing I do know, the colonies (in general) had more surplus availability at the end of the Spring nectar flow than they did at the end of the Fall flow. So I do expect that excess brood rearing was at least a contributing factor, and this likely motivated at least in-part by their preferential use of upper entrances. Without exception, all colonies primarily used the upper entrance, and most only used the upper entrance. Thus as a minimum I plan on eliminating this variable from the equation next year to assess how this might impact the colony's approach to developing their nest structure.

Also, if I can keep the wax moths from destroying them I will actually have surplus drawn comb available prior to the flow this year for the first time so I am hopeful this might tip the scales in my favor a bit more, allowing me to pull off some honey before July and maybe forestall the temptation of colonies to burn through it.

Beyond this, I think you may very well be exactly right in questioning the foraging availability- particularly now with more colonies in the mix (GWW also wondered about this). So, multiple yards likely should be in the mix going forward, for more than one reason.



Gray Goose said:


> will watch your thread for updates. Also I plan to do some "Buckeye" hive builds this winter, so I may offer some pics of that process.


I do hope you will post pictures of your Winter projects. I was unaware of a 'Buckeye' hive- based on the following I get the sense it is essentially a double-walled Langstroth?



The Buckeye hive : why it is much the best hive for many beekeepers to use, and how to manipulate the bees in it.



Speaking of Winter, how are your colonies looking heading in?

I am always glad to see your posts, and I do sincerely hope all is well with you and your family.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

While watching a recent presentation by Dr. Tom Seeley, he made reference to a recent study he had published which outlined his findings from three years of treatment-free beekeeping.

This obviously piqued my interest, particularly when he shared the results of a year-long comparison of mite levels and winter survival of three different bee stocks, namely ‘wild’ swarms from the Arnot Forest, ‘Russian’ queens from Kirk Webster and ‘Italian VSH’ queens from Olivarez.

After some searching, I found that this research was published in the August 2020 edition of the _American Bee Journal_ in an article entitled ‘Progress Report on Three Years of Treatment-Free Beekeeping’ (attached).

While there are several interesting observations contained in the article, it can all be summed up by Dr. Seeley when he notes, _“I have found that in these untreated colonies, the mite level in a colony in September is a very good predictor of whether this colony will be dead (or alive) the following April.”_

A few highlights:

Using wild-caught swarms, Dr. Seeley has averaged 28% Winter losses over the three-year period of evaluation.
He suggests that a sugar-shake count of over 15 mites / 300 bees in September is the metric he plans on using to determine when to euthanize a colony.
His side-by-side comparison of three bee stocks over the last year is very interesting and is outlined in the table below. A few other details:


The ‘wild’ group had two (2) queenless colonies in October. He chalked this up to likely being the result of old queens.
The one (1) ‘wild’ colony that did not survive is the colony with a count of 22.
The only Olivarez colony that survived is the colony with a count of 4.


----------



## msl

nice find, I had seen one of his talks about it, but hadn't see the article
should be interesting to see how greg turns up this spring now that he has some numbers to compare to seeleys finding


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> He suggests that a sugar-shake count of over 15 mites / 300 bees in September is the metric he plans on using to determine when to euthanize a colony.


And I'll be darned.
This is *exactly *what I decided for myself to do - a single measure in later September/early October (since this is just about the mite peak time).


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> nice find, I had seen one of his talks about it, but hadn't see the article
> should be interesting to see how greg turns up this spring now that he has some numbers to compare to seeleys finding


I sure am glad I did this, indeed.
At least it will be something to talk about.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> And I'll be darned.
> This is *exactly *what I decided for myself to do - a single measure in later September/early October (since this is just about the mite peak time).


GregV:

I think you are on to something here. In the spirit of 'black box' beekeeping, this single measure might be the most relevant to measuring the relative success of a given colony. It will be interesting indeed (as MSL suggested) to see how your data comports with Dr. Seeley's.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> While watching a recent presentation by Dr. Tom Seeley, he made reference to a recent study he had published which outlined his findings from three years of treatment-free beekeeping.


Dr. Seeley made a few other random comments as a function of the presentation that were especially helpful to me for consideration in a TF context:

1. The Primacy of SMR- Dr. Seeley contends that the contemporary body of research suggests that Suppressed Mite Reproduction (SMR) is likely the most important variable in conferring resistance. He expounds on this idea by reminding that SMR is not a trait but a characteristic- it is a 'blanket label' that doesn't specify a mechanism. 

2. Uncapping / Recapping Vital- Dr. Seeley suggests that one of the key mechanisms supporting SMR is likely uncapping / recapping. He suggests that it is easy to test for this in colonies by applying duct tape to capped brood and then subsequently pulling it off to reveal the underside of the cappings. Any capping with a dark imprint in the center represents a cell which has been reopened and a simple percentage can be recorded to compare between colonies. 

3. Selection by Controlling Drones- While intuitive once one is introduced to the concept, Dr. Seeley suggests that one easy way a beekeeper can assert some control over genetics in their area is to supply drone comb to those colonies which demonstrate high SMR (i.e. low mite population growth).

4. His Approach to 'Darwinian' Beekeeping- Dr. Seeley made mention that the ethos for his natural beekeeping pillars is found in Mr. Wendell Berry's quote, _"We cannot know what we are doing [to the natural world] until we know what nature would be doing if we were doing nothing." _He explained that he wasn't advocating for 'hands-off' beekeeping, but rather allowing bees to inform us of their preferences and their survival mechanisms such that we can incorporate these ideas where practical into our managed beekeeping efforts.


----------



## msl

I hadn't heard of the duct tape trick, what presentation? 

r


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> I hadn't heard of the duct tape trick, what presentation?


MSL:

My apologies for the delay in reply. I was not sure that I was at liberty to share the video, so I contacted Dr. Seeley for clarification and he replied as follows:

'I do not know if there is a standard protocol for this assay, except that researchers like to sample ca. 100 capped cells from the frames of capped brood in a colony. This can be done by pressing a patch or two of duct tape down onto a frame of capped brood in a colony, then pulling it up and studying the undersides of the cells’ cappings. By sampling 100+ cell cappings, one can get a good estimate of the % of cells that have been capped and recapped. 

A cell capping that has been capped and recapped is recognized as follows: _"The recapping behaviour can be easily detected as a hole in the spun cocoon of the pupated larva ranging in size from one mm to the entire area of the cap. The hole is subsequently covered over with wax by the adult bees. This hole can be seen as a dark, matte spot on the underside of the cell cap distinct from the glossy coating of the cocoon.” _

This is a quote from the paper that I have attached. Fig. 1 in this paper contains excellent photos that show more clearly than the above words about how to recognized cells of mite infested brood that have been uncapped and recapped.'

I have attached the paper he refers to along with a complementing paper which provides some additional context about the mechanism.


----------



## zabadoh

One thing that strikes me about the Seeley paper is the Olivarez Italian VSH queens.

Olivarez operates out of California, so their bees are not locally adapted to conditions in Ithaca, NY.

Without a treated control group, the poor results of 84% overwinter loss, might reflect the effect of poorly adapted bees as much as the high mite count.


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## Litsinger

zabadoh said:


> Without a treated control group, the poor results of 84% overwinter loss, might reflect the effect of poorly adapted bees as much as the high mite count.


Good point, zabadoh. It certainly was a very small sample size to boot.

While I hesitate to speak for Dr. Seeley, the stated purpose for including the Olivarez stock in the evaluation was to see whether proven VSH stock was successfully able to control mite population growth relative to other stocks with purported resistance but unknown mechanism(s). He might have avoided the local adaptation concern by sourcing a Northern VSH line.

What does seem plain (at least to me) is that low mite counts in the Fall is one of the single greatest predictors of overwintering success, even in the TF management efforts which have been measured.

Thank you for your comment- please do feel welcome to provide your input anytime.


----------



## Cloverdale

Litsinger said:


> MSL:
> 
> My apologies for the delay in reply. I was not sure that I was at liberty to share the video, so I contacted Dr. Seeley for clarification and he replied as follows:
> 
> 'I do not know if there is a standard protocol for this assay, except that researchers like to sample ca. 100 capped cells from the frames of capped brood in a colony. This can be done by pressing a patch or two of duct tape down onto a frame of capped brood in a colony, then pulling it up and studying the undersides of the cells’ cappings. By sampling 100+ cell cappings, one can get a good estimate of the % of cells that have been capped and recapped.
> 
> A cell capping that has been capped and recapped is recognized as follows: _"The recapping behaviour can be easily detected as a hole in the spun cocoon of the pupated larva ranging in size from one mm to the entire area of the cap. The hole is subsequently covered over with wax by the adult bees. This hole can be seen as a dark, matte spot on the underside of the cell cap distinct from the glossy coating of the cocoon.” _
> 
> This is a quote from the paper that I have attached. Fig. 1 in this paper contains excellent photos that show more clearly than the above words about how to recognized cells of mite infested brood that have been uncapped and recapped.'
> 
> I have attached the paper he refers to along with a complementing paper which provides some additional context about the mechanism.


Thank you for the info Litsinger; I can’t seem to get any info from the Screening for Low VarrOA paper, there is no text in it. Deb


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## Litsinger

Cloverdale said:


> Thank you for the info Litsinger; I can’t seem to get any info from the Screening for Low VarrOA paper, there is no text in it. Deb


My pleasure, Cloverdale. See if the hyperlinks do better for you than the PDF's:



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325176336_Rapid_parallel_evolution_overcomes_global_honey_bee_parasite





https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341701918_Screening_for_low_Varroa_mite_reproduction_SMR_and_recapping_in_European_honey_bees


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Good point, zabadoh. It certainly was a very small sample size to boot.
> 
> While I hesitate to speak for Dr. Seeley, the stated purpose for including the Olivarez stock in the evaluation was to see whether proven VSH stock was successfully able to control mite population growth relative to other stocks with purported resistance but unknown mechanism(s). He might have avoided the local adaptation concern by sourcing a Northern VSH line.
> 
> What does seem plain (at least to me) is that low mite counts in the Fall is one of the single greatest predictors of overwintering success, even in the TF management efforts which have been measured.
> 
> Thank you for your comment- please do feel welcome to provide your input anytime.


Interesting study, comments:

nice to see the Russians live up to the "talk" makes the Hassel of them somewhat worth it.
Small sample size...
Zabadoh, what about the "ability to adapt" maybe taking a couple generations..
Also which group was in their own area, meaning, there may be local adaptions for the local Mite virus, and the ones brought in could take some generations to perform at their best. So for example if the Russians were "from there" and the others brought in there may be a first year local bias.

And 1 year is not much of a study, we all have had good years and bad years, so a multi year study, or take the Russians to the Olivarez place as well,, as bring them out, to see if there is a locality to it.

I do like his studies seems for a researcher he has a lot of loose ends, on purpose? or maybe poor funding or maybe another reason. Just seems to do it right/better would not be all that difficult. he either does not have bees or is sloppy.

GG


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## zabadoh

In that paper, Seeley does say that the Olivarez does treat their bees, so that’s another distinction from the other two groups that overwintered well:

1. Wild caught, possibly untreated, caught in bait hives in woodlands in the “hills south of Ithaca”
2. Kirk Webster untreated Russians from Vermont

Also I noticed that the one Olivarez hive that did survive had replaced its original queen before October, so either a daughter of the original queen 1. had mite resistant genetics by pure luck, 2. had mated with the local drones who had resistant genetics, or 3. the entire hive was taken over by a local swarm with resistance, or 4. they just got lucky with a brood break or some other factor that knocked down the mite count. Some of those points are also acknowledged by Dr. Seeley at the end of the paper.

In any case, Litsinger is right that local VSH queens would have made a better control group, and that breeding for a low mite count and local adaptations as opposed to one particular anti mite behavior seems to yield better survival rates.


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## GregB

zabadoh said:


> Litsinger is right that* local VSH queens would have made a better control group*,


Unsure.
One can argue that some "main-stream commercial bee widely sold to the general populace" actually is the control bee you want. Whatever average commercial bee packages are dumped nation-wide year after year to the countless hobbyists - that what Olivarez represents well.

In case of Seeley his own feral bees ARE the local VSH bees.

Bringing some outside reportedly "resistant" bees is pointless in my view - since the other mega-factors will likely affect the outcomes before this even comes down to the mite-resistance.
Perfect example would be - why not just bring some AHBs from TX or CA - perfect VSH bees from the outside to be used as a control group.
What is the problem there?
Obviously - the mega-factors (poor wintering, to be clear) will wipe out the AHBs in New York State BEFORE we even get to count the spring mites. While Olivarez bees are a less radical example, they are still subject to the immediate mega-factors first and foremost.

Maybe I am an idiot with some kitchen-science experience and miss some obvious things...
... or maybe Seeley does (again) some sloppy "science" here.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I do like his studies seems for a researcher he has a lot of loose ends, on purpose? or maybe poor funding or maybe another reason. Just seems to do it right/better would not be all that difficult. he either does not have bees or is sloppy.


GG:

Just to be fair, the write-up in question is described by Dr. Seeley as a 'garden experiment' conducted in his home apiary- so I don't think he designed the experiment with the scientific rigor of a full-blown research project. That said, your point is well-taken that we shouldn't derive more from the results than what was intended. In a way, his write-up might be compared to the anecdotes we are all trying to chronicle here on Beesource (albeit from someone with an illustrious research background and much wider audience).


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> In case of Seeley his own feral bees ARE the local VSH bees.


GregV:

Good feedback. Not to get too far in the weeds here, but I think you are hitting-upon the very thing that Dr. Seeley is trying to wrap his arms around- namely the distinction between VSH and SMR.

In short, these terms are frequently conflated- likely because they were somewhat treated as synonymous in the early days of the USDA Russian program:



Varroa Sensitive Hygiene (VSH) Discription : USDA ARS



Since that time, VSH has been further defined as a specific mechanism that has a defined testing protocol:



Selecting for Varroa Sensitive Hygiene – Bee Health



In contrast, the idea of SMR has taken on a more general definition which does not assign a root mechanism:

_"In the 1990s, Harbo and Harris identified high levels of non-reproduction as an inherited character of worker bees which they named “Suppression of mite reproduction - SMR”. Later on, specific experiments suggested that the low proportion of fertile mites, at least in the US stock, mostly was due to preferential removal of reproducing mites by worker bees, so the trait was renamed “Varroa sensitive hygiene - VSH”. However, SMR in a colony can potentially result from mechanisms other than VSH behavior (there is evidence that brood may be able to prevent mite reproduction). One of the potential mechanisms is uncapping and recapping of (infested) brood cells. At the right time of brood development, opening of infested cell for some time can have a negative impact on success of mite reproduction (Kirrane et al., 2011)."_



https://www.beebreeding.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/RNSBB_SMR-recapping_protocol_2017_09_11.pdf



Thus, I think Dr. Seeley was attempting to discern how mite population growth (MPG) and survival compared between colonies with high expressions of SMR (i.e. local feral stock and Webster stock) and colonies with high expressions of VSH (i.e. Olivarez stock) .

Based on his recent published literature and presentations, it appears that Dr. Seeley agrees with others who have concluded that high VSH (as defined by the testing protocol) in-and-of-itself is not a reliable predictor of low mite population growth. I contend that this was Dr. Seeley's test objective in the experiment in question.


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## GregB

Yes, I suppose, I should go back to my own "black box" positions since long ago - SMR it is.

SMR is the real deal - the sledge hammer (however imprecise, inefficient, not elegant - but still gets the nail hammered in).
VSH is ... just a minute detail under a microscope - all the while the big picture is NOT even understood yet. Why even bother?

This reminds of the different prospective of low-level trench commanders and high-level army generals.
The low-level commanders will often question the "stupid" orders - because ALL they are aware is the microscopic details in front of them and don't know any better.

Properly, just various bees with reported SMR indications need to be compared and done with (disregarding the reported minutia, be it VSH, leg-biting, whatever).


----------



## msl

> the stated purpose for including the Olivarez stock in the evaluation was to see whether proven VSH stock was successfully able to control mite population growth relative to other stocks with purported resistance but unknown mechanism(s).





> I think Dr. Seeley was attempting to discern how mite population growth (MPG) and survival compared between colonies with high expressions of SMR (i.e. local feral stock and Webster stock) and colonies with high expressions of VSH (i.e. Olivarez stock) .


Ya... feels like he bought standard CA commercial bees, sure they may have a bit of selection for resistance, but most commercial stocks do here is the write up
" We choose our breeder queens based on the hive's performance in honey production, gentleness, brood-rearing viability, and overall ability to overwinter healthy and heavy. In addition, OHB has worked with the "Tech Transfer Team," developed by world-renowned entomologist Marla Spivak, since before its official launch in an effort to identify and maintain desirable traits in our current stock. We've infused the "Minnesota Hygienic" and the "VSH" traits into our Italian stock, in an effort to enhance disease and mite resistance or tolerance. "
big fat pollination hives... mite candy

Nowhere have I seen OHB as a "proven" VSH stock suitable for TF or ANY information of the % of VSH expressed in their production queens..... mean while in seeleys home state Sam comfort is quite successful using VP Queens VSH carnys (and other lines) as the foundation for his stock.... we know TF with VSH works in seeleys area... so his choice of OHB can only be construed as intended to fail, they did just what one would expect a commercial Italian line to do in upstate NY..
Granted OHB has been his standard source for commercial italian queen used for a base line in his work....as to why they went form standard commercial queens to VSH queens in his writing is a bit.......telling

The stated goal was "I decided to attempt treatment-free beekeeping of colonies managed for honey production. To do so, I stopped giving miticide treatments to the colonies that I keep in one of my apiaries and I started keeping detailed records on the fates of these colonies. Now, three years later, I am making an initial report on my progress toward having colonies that grow large, make honey, and survive "
and he goes in to great details on the survival...but honey production, the linch pin in TF, is never mentioned...

and what happened to "darwin " beekeeping in small hives and splitting what lives.. the whole reason behind it was when put in double deeps the AF ferals died of mites so there surival had to come form some thing elce ...
ie Seeley (2007)


> The Arnot Forest bees are not inhibiting V. destructor population growth
> There are no signs that colonies of Arnot Forest bees, relative to those of New World Carniolan bees, are better at limiting the pop-ulation growth of V. destructor mites.


now maybe the shift form mite drop to sugar shake could very well be changing the results..

Its interesting that he has gone from the AF bees need small hives to survive to them doing just fine in the pictured triple deep broods...



> I don't think he designed the experiment with the scientific rigor of a full-blown research project


yep... he is just selling to his base, mostly lazy bush type beekeepers. outside of the peer reviewed study papers, His writings go out of the way to make things sound simple and easy... no sweat beekeeping.



> SMR is the real deal - the sledge hammer (however imprecise, inefficient, not elegant - but still gets the nail hammered in).
> VSH is ... just a minute detail under a microscope - all the while the big picture is NOT even understood yet. Why even bother?
> 
> Properly, just various bees with reported SMR indications need to be compared and done with


.

SMR is scientist for we don't know what is happening.
why bother?
VSH is quantifiable, we know how it works, we know why it works, we know its inheartibul, we know how to test for it, we know it survives outcrossing better then most traits do to be additive.
We also see that many VSH breeders end up being TF and having to farm mites as they are breeding Kefuss back holes. 

The main thing is it allows you to select at a higher resolution then a mite wash... doesn't matter for back yard programs, but for real breeding it likly means the traits survive one more out cross


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## GregB

msl said:


> SMR is scientist for we don't know what is happening.
> why bother?


Well, in the end a typical answer still is - we don't know why OR how OR if some indication is even true outside of some anecdotal observations OR the indication is long-term repeatable and persistent OR the indication is transferable geographically.

As long as this "something" is happening and I get to benefit, I am happy.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> yep... he is just selling to his base, mostly lazy bush type beekeepers. outside of the peer reviewed study papers, His writings go out of the way to make things sound simple and easy... no sweat beekeeping.


MSL:

Hey, I resemble this remark. 

As usual, you bring up some good points. That said, I humbly disagree with your assessment of Dr. Seeley's intentions. While I think we are free to poke holes in his experimental design or conclusions (indeed this is one of the hallmarks of scientific inquiry), I think it is presumptuous to suggest that he is purposefully 'rabble rousing' in the absence of substantive evidence to corroborate the claim.

True, he has written a few books- but the article in question was written as a chronicle of his own 3-year experiment in TF beekeeping with a bottom-line conclusion that:

_"In summary, what I have seen so far in my apiary in Ellis Hollow — where I have ceased treating the colonies with miticides, and where each summer I have rebuilt my colony numbers using swarms caught in bait hives — is that 24-31% of the colonies have died over winter. I have also seen that the colonies that have died over winter are the ones with high mite counts in September. This 24-31% level of winter colony mortality is much higher than what I experienced in the 1970s and 1980s (two decades without Varroa), and it is certainly not ideal. Nevertheless, I will persist with this experiment. I am motivated to do so because I enjoy not dosing the Ellis Hollow colonies with miticides, and because I enjoy catching swarms that, as we shall see next, often produce colonies that are able to control the Varroa mites. So I remain optimistic that eventually most of the colonies in my Ellis Hollow apiary will possess a satisfactory ability to control Varroa."_

This sounds an awful lot where a lot of us are and ultimately would like to be- and it's hard to imagine what mercenary advantage he might have in observing:

_"We cannot draw sweeping conclusions from this study, for it involved only 20 colonies and it unfolded over just one year. Nevertheless, I think it is useful to summarize its key findings, for they are least suggestive of where a beekeeper who wishes to pursue treatment-free beekeeping should get his or her queens."_

i.e. Either catch local feral swarms and raise your own queens or buy from a proven local breeder... sounds like good advice to me.

Again, no disrespect meant- just doing my part to stoke the embers of spirited debate!


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## Beth

Litsinger said:


> Squarepeg suggested that I chronicle my efforts in treatment-free beekeeping- and after considering it, I thought it might be helpful in the future.


I am following. I want two Layen hives for this reason.


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## msl

> I think it is presumptuous to suggest that he is purposefully 'rabble rousing' in the absence of substantive evidence to corroborate the claim.


not what I am saying, we all fall prey to our comforntain bias...
but running a "TF honey" program and not talking honey is a bit off.
Imagine If he had focused purely on honey yields and said nothing about survival or mite counts... Same red flag


> Hey, I resemble this remark.


As did I at one point !! I think greg too.. as I said we all fall prey to our comforntain bias, and many of us have to adapt when thing don't work out as advertised.

The main issue here is this is an entertainment piece, not a peer review paper.. dealing with seeley the writer not seeley the researcher... nothing wrong, you scale you work to your target market

just pointing out that despite his 2019 apimondia keynote on darwining beekeeping he has done a 180 on the need for small colony size as the reason for the AF bees to survive witch is odd as most of the experiments using AF bees in full sized hives led to their death. but in this TF experiment has also abandoned most of the darwinian principles he has laid down.. But that seems to have been a lot of talk on his part and not something he fully tryiled

Well maybe the magazine wanted just wanted something new


we know form Peck that the AF bees do indeed have resistance traits including an average 35% of the mites on a sticky board have been bitten https://www.apimondia.com/en/compon...XzKUYq2w4usQutEpqC7wNGg68lwBSOo2jGtPPPL6-Tiyw,
but only one of the 8 hives in that study lived when placed in full sized equipment

you can see the rest of Peck's stuff here https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstr...llgrad_0058F_11100.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y it had been on lock down till apimondia
One interesting thing in it is in 1975 the AF bees had an average cell size of 5.19mm, 2016 it was 5.22mm, fairly firmly putting to bed the 4.9=natural argument of some gurus




> Again, no disrespect meant- just doing my part to stoke the embers of spirited debate!


Witch is why we get along so well!!!


----------



## GregB

Beth said:


> I want two Layen hives for this reason.


Beth, so you know - the Layens hives will not mean you automaticaly can keep your bees treatment-free in them.
Layens <> treatment-free.


----------



## gww

msl
I am pretty sure seeley mentioned that he got 1000 lbs of honey off of the hives.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Beth

GregV said:


> Beth, so you know - the Layens hives will not mean you automaticaly can keep your bees treatment-free in them.
> Layens <> treatment-free.


Oh, I know. I don't plan to do Layens hives for a good while any way - but if I do eventually get a couple, I would like to see if I can work them as naturally as possible. (And that may not be possible as I'm in the South and varroa is pretty aggressive down here from what I understand.) I just like the hive. 😁 But I may learn something between now and then that completely changes my mind. I like the Cathedral Hives, too. . .but I honestly don't think I'll ever get one. 

For right now, I'll be just tickled pink if I can keep the nucs I buy in the Spring alive for a solid year.


----------



## msl

> I am pretty sure seeley mentioned that he got 1000 lbs of honey off of the hives.


"In most years, the colonies in this apiary will produce — despite the removals of bees and brood for various projects — about 1000 pounds of honey"
but he is talking site history at that point and then next paragraph goes into the sites treatments... just pointing out no pounds per overwintered hive data, historically or TF.

SO.. data... 2018
If you think that the 11 overwintered TF hives + 6 caught swarms made 1,000 pounds of honey, massively in excess of the the areas averages.. well don't know what to say...I did just get back from AZ and have some oceanfront property I can sell you cheap
NY usda averages
2016 was 64 a hive
2017 was 52
2018 was 64

I just don't see feral stock run treatment free massively outperforming treated stocks selected for honey production.. does not compute, much less one being used as brood factories
thats 90 pounds a hive... TF

swingin back around...


> This sounds an awful lot where a lot of us are and ultimately would like to be


for sure!!! I would like to put out a few swarm traps, and just not have to care any more. Sounds ideal!

The problem is importing bees to cover your losses isn't sustainable.. and swarms are a finite resource
What happens when 3-4 beekeepers in seeleys area try to follow suit... much less 10-15
not enuff to go around....
the scary prospect of a natural resource being depleted and then lost by over harvest.

Swarms here are a fight.. to the point the state swarm hotline is a mess... admins of it changing boundaries to benefit them and their club and or skiming right off the top dispatching them selfs and there friends to collect instead of passing it on to the dispatcher for the club in the area the swarm was found.. 
ya swam gerrymandering who would have thought.....


----------



## Cloverdale

“swam gerrymandering who would have thought.....” no surprise there!


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> ya swam gerrymandering who would have thought.....


LOL.

I have been quiet about my trapping proceedings (locally!) - no need to brag.


----------



## gww

Greg
I understand you pointing out him talking about site history and not individual hive. Though that is how I look at my site, by the whole site.

I don't know more than seeley mentioned for himself.
I would say using state average can be miss leading though. Mo averages is 50 lbs per hive but I know member danial D got over two hundred pounds off of a mostly untreated hive with several others making over 100 while my area is giving about ten pounds per hive. Same state but different collection. The very best and the very worst are put together to make a state average based on those who give some kind of report to the state.

If I were not so lazy, I believe I could prove this out by putting a few hives on my dads 12 miles away but much different forage. I won't prove it and could even be wrong but for some reason think there would be a big difference just looking at the differences in the two areas.

I am not saying you are wrong on how you read seeley though it would beg to question why he would mention the thousand lbs historical at all and then not mention a change. Maybe some one should ask if that is what it takes to get anything from what he has reported.

Myself, I found the import of what he said leaving all else out, 30 percent loss yearly over three years. Regardless of study metrics and scientific method used, no treatment and 70 percent life is the interesting part.

Method would not change a simple fact of life as opposed to death from hives managed for honey and not managed for bees. Life is the one fact that is not antidotal, there is either life or death to chose from. From there you could breed from you best producers and make improvement from live bees. Long as the life part is there there is hope.
Cheers
gww
Ps The looking at honey production for whole site. I had my oldest hive give 50 lbs and some of my hives give none for an average of ten lbs for per hive. This is pretty consistent over several years though the one giving the most is not always the same hives every year.


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## msl

Litsinger said:


> ‘Italian VSH’ queens from Olivarez


Hey Russ
Just to be sure (as the printed article doesn't say who) Seeley states they were from Olivarez in the presentation you watched?


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> The main issue here is this is an entertainment piece, not a peer review paper.. dealing with seeley the writer not seeley the researcher... nothing wrong, you scale you work to your target market


MSL:

First off, I’ll apologize for my delay in reply- I’ve been away from the computer of late.

Secondly, I will endeavor to succinctly respond to your three posts all at once- let’s see how this goes.

For my part, I’d rather prefer to think of Dr. Seeley’s paper as an accurate accounting of his efforts in his own home yard- more of a ‘citizen science’ project not unlike what we are all doing in our own beekeeping efforts. I notice he is now a Professor Emeritus, so maybe he feels more free to write as Tom Seeley the beekeeper rather than Dr. Thomas Seeley the Research Entomologist.



msl said:


> just pointing out that despite his 2019 apimondia keynote on darwining beekeeping he has done a 180 on the need for small colony size as the reason for the AF bees to survive witch is odd as most of the experiments using AF bees in full sized hives led to their death. but in this TF experiment has also abandoned most of the darwinian principles he has laid down.. But that seems to have been a lot of talk on his part and not something he fully tryiled


While I will readily admit that I am neither an expert nor a practitioner of ‘Darwinian Beekeeping’ per se, in a follow-up reply to me, Dr. Seeley appears to still advocate for a two-prong TF approach, specifically:

_“Regarding the mechs of Varroa resistance found in wild/feral colonies, I find it helpful to think of them as being of two sorts: good genes (for uncapping and recapping Varroa infested cells, good mite biting behavior, etc) and good lifestyle (small broodnests, frequent swarming, etc.).”_



msl said:


> you can see the rest of Peck's stuff


Thank you for posting Dr. Peck’s research and Apimondia presentation. I was unaware of this information, and I appreciated the opportunity to review it. It seems the main take-aways from his dissertation work is:

Arnot Forest bees survive with Varroa by expressing multiple resistance phenotypes at intermediate-high levels.

Bee breeding efforts should be cautious about seeking a single “silver bullet” resistance trait.



msl said:


> The problem is importing bees to cover your losses isn't sustainable.. and swarms are a finite resource
> What happens when 3-4 beekeepers in seeleys area try to follow suit... much less 10-15
> not enuff to go around....
> the scary prospect of a natural resource being depleted and then lost by over harvest.


To be certain, I have honestly never considered what the implications would be if a significant number of beekeepers suddenly adopted Dr. Seeley’s recommendations whole-cloth. It is an interesting thought experiment, and I can see how this would be very disruptive, at least in the short run.

While I don’t presume to know the right answer, I know Dr. Seeley has stated unequivocally and in numerous mediums that he expects there are feral stocks with some level of selection for resistance in all 50 states. Not sure he is able to back that up with hard data as much as anecdotes and interactions with other researchers across the nation.



msl said:


> Hey Russ
> Just to be sure (as the printed article doesn't say who) Seeley states they were from Olivarez in the presentation you watched?


That’s correct- this is why I posted a screen-grab from the presentation.



Litsinger said:


>


----------



## Litsinger

Beth said:


> I am following. I want two Layen hives for this reason.


Beth:

Welcome to the humble chronicle of my TF trial-and-error here on Beesource.

For what it is worth, I applaud your efforts to pursue a treatment-free approach in your specific situation.

If I could offer but three bits of advice to you as you begin this journey it would be this:

1. Read and watch everything you can get your hands on about TF beekeeping. The varroa problem is multi-faceted and there are many talented people all over the world who are experimenting with potential solutions to the problem. Knowing that you are getting your bees in the Spring and that you are a research-type like me, you've hopefully got both the time and the inclination to dig-in.

2. Have a plan as to how you intend to approach your TF experiment, knowing you are free to free to modify it as you go. While there are many different 'flavors' of TF beekeeping, one thing seems plain- you can't expect to put random bees in a box of your choice and expect success. Ask me how I know... 😉

3. Failure should be expected, and it is a part of beekeeping (TF or Conventional). While you might be one of the fortunate few who never experiences a set-back in your apiary, you'll probably be like the rest of us and will end-up with a few or several disappointing outcomes. Some might be self-inflicted, but just like any living thing, colonies sometimes fail due to no fault of your own. So don't let failure discourage you, but let it inform you as to what changes you might want to make going forward.

I am glad you stopped-in here. Please feel welcome to provide your thoughts anytime.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Cloverdale said:


> “swam gerrymandering who would have thought.....” no surprise there!





GregV said:


> I have been quiet about my trapping proceedings (locally!) - no need to brag.


Now this is a funny thought- undercover swarm trapping. So rather than a robber bee one might be accused of being a 'bee robber'.









Hive heists: why the next threat to bees is organized crime


Pollination has become big business, and thieves are now targeting hives with growing sophistication in the US




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Method would not change a simple fact of life as opposed to death from hives managed for honey and not managed for bees. Life is the one fact that is not antidotal, there is either life or death to chose from. From there you could breed from you best producers and make improvement from live bees. Long as the life part is there there is hope.


GWW:

This is a good point, and I do appreciate you reminding me of this cold reality. Ultimately, we need bees that survive before we can even begin to select for certain traits (such as honey production).

Seems obvious as I type it, but I for one can be guilty of missing the forest for the trees sometimes.

I sincerely hope all is well with you, your family and your bees- haven't seen a post on your thread in awhile...

Russ


----------



## gww

Russ


> I sincerely hope all is well with you, your family and your bees- haven't seen a post on your thread in awhile...


Still kind of on an internet hiatus due to still spending all my time trying to learn guitar. Which is harder than a guy might think.

Keep up the good work, I learn quite a bit from your thread.
Cheers
gww


----------



## msl

thanks for the info russ.. I was wanting to be sure I am not putting words in peoples mouth..



Litsinger said:


> the stated purpose for including the Olivarez stock in the evaluation was to see whether proven VSH stock was successfully able to control mite population growth relative to other stocks with purported resistance but unknown mechanism(s). He might have avoided the local adaptation concern by sourcing a Northern VSH line.





Litsinger said:


> Thus, I think Dr. Seeley was attempting to discern how mite population growth (MPG) and survival compared between colonies with high expressions of SMR (i.e. local feral stock and Webster stock) and colonies with high expressions of VSH (i.e. Olivarez stock) .


That really does sound what seeley is trying to infer, but its not said out right in the articul..
but my gut said


msl said:


> Ya... feels like he bought standard CA commercial bees, sure they may have a bit of selection for resistance, but most commercial stocks do


So I reached out to a VSH breeders group to see if anyone new what the average VSH expression was on OHB italians
the conscience was that while there is some VSH pedigree, the expression is slight to not existence (compared to non select baseline) and they were quickly culled from their programs

We see the OHBs are neither a "proven" nore do they have a "high expression " of the VSH trait and performed as one would expect, right in line with MPG of most commercial stocks and they died..
It feels like Seeley loaded the deck so the results favored "natural selection" and down play human breeding.... all of a sudden he has started calling them "VSH Italian" when earlier trials he called the same bees Italians.
He took 83% loses with this stock in How Honey Bee Colonies Survive in the Wild: Testing the Importance of Small Nests and Frequent Swarming

We have talked about this recent study Evaluation of Suppressed Mite Reproduction (SMR) Reveals Potential for Varroa Resistance in European Honey Bees (Apis mellifera L.) an I think its important to note that the out crossed VSH (local mother/ USDA VSH semen, witch would approximate a F-1 VSH production queen) had less mite reproduction then the bonded/survivor Gotland and Avignon bees, or about the same depending on which data set.

The Gotland and Avignon bees have some real draw backs... Low honey production, Hot tempermit, swarmy etc ... that have stopped them from becoming source material
form the linked study


> As discussed above, however, so far attempts to bring such honey bees bred from “natural selection” into beekeeping on a wider scale have failed.


Seeley doesn't report ANY negatives on the AF bees, ever... and I find that odd. That's the behavior of salesmen, not scientist 

Maby in year 2 we get some data on how they compare with Kirks bees that (presumably) have been selected with honey production as one of the metricks. 

All that said... the survival numbers and mite to hive death thresholds apear to be good data.... not much new there but coming from a palatable to TF keepers source and context will hope fully get more aspiring TF keeper to do shakes, take records, and head off mite bombs


----------



## Gray Goose

Agree the whole thing seems a bit odd, a Scientist doing a non scientific experiment. Some data presented, but not all data presented.
Seems another shoe will drop, maybe he is being hired by some company and this is the 1/2 step in that direction.

May be outing the Oliverarez queens, several years ago I did try 6 of the Saz Queens with 6 for 6 loss over wintering.

I would expect more to trickle out.

GG


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Now this is a funny thought- undercover swarm trapping. So rather than a robber bee one might be accused of being a 'bee robber'.


I may sound a cynic, but whatever it takes to slow (ideally - to stop) the massive migratory beekeeping - works for me.
In fact, Green Peace should get involved maybe with the migratory beekeepers.
They chase the whalers, might as well chase the bee trucks.
LOL

Absent the migratory bees, the California almond growers very well may convert some of their almond deserts back into native pollinator sanctuaries (which they don't give a hoot at the moment evidently - trying to squeeze the max profit from every single patch of land).


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> undercover swarm trapping.


Makes sense to just keep a low profile - if everyone turns into a swarm trappers, there will be no swarm losers to supply the trappers!


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Still kind of on an internet hiatus due to still spending all my time trying to learn guitar. Which is harder than a guy might think.


I have found that beekeeping is a lot like guitar playing insofar that proficiency is always just out of reach... not to say that we rank amateurs can't have fun enjoying the craft regardless.

Keep up the effort- I imagine you are already seeing a lot of progress relative to where you were just a couple of months ago.


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> Seeley doesn't report ANY negatives on the AF bees, ever... and I find that odd. That's the behavior of salesmen, not scientist
> 
> Maby in year 2 we get some data on how they compare with Kirks bees that (presumably) have been selected with honey production as one of the metricks.
> 
> All that said... the survival numbers and mite to hive death thresholds apear to be good data.... not much new there but coming from a palatable to TF keepers source and context will hope fully get more aspiring TF keeper to do shakes, take records, and head off mite bombs


Good post, MSL. I think you make some very valid points, especially in making sure that we continue to let facts and data drive our decision-making. As you often talk about, I am certain that Dr. Seeley (like all of us) can be subject to confirmation bias- in this case possibly assigning too much weight to the OHB VSH trait or in failing to assign any negative attributes to the Arnot bees. As I expect we all appreciate, this is why I think subjecting our results (and opinions based on those results) to the harsh light of constructive criticism is helpful and important- not only does it keep us grounded as to the conclusions we should draw, but it allows the community-at-large to 'compare notes' and find out what might be working or worth experimenting with.

I like you do earnestly hope that Dr. Seeley continues to post updates to this project and we get to see how the Webster bees compare to the Arnot bees. As a suggestion (and this is no joke), I expect we might be able to contact Dr. Seeley and ask him to consider publishing any other relevant variables (i.e. honey production) between the stocks to aid the effort of scientific discovery and the beekeeping industry at-large.

I am still not ready to take a cynical approach towards Dr. Seeley's current endeavors, but I do appreciate the opportunity to discuss his results under the microscope of rational critique. 

As always, thank you for being willing to challenge any notions or opinions I might put forth- I think it is helpful and helps us all see the big picture.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Agree the whole thing seems a bit odd, a Scientist doing a non scientific experiment. Some data presented, but not all data presented.
> Seems another shoe will drop, maybe he is being hired by some company and this is the 1/2 step in that direction.


GG:

Now this is a sobering thought- I do hope for all of our sakes that this does not prove to be the case.

How is your overwintering effort going thus far? Were you satisfied with what you saw before you closed up shop for the Winter?


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Makes sense to just keep a low profile - if everyone turns into a swarm trappers, there will be no swarm losers to supply the trappers!


GregV:

Now this is funny... Thankfully in my area it appears there are more swarms than trappers at present- but that could always change.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> GG:
> 
> 
> 
> How is your overwintering effort going thus far? Were you satisfied with what you saw before you closed up shop for the Winter?


behind as usual,  have 7 mouse guards and wraps to do this week, at one yard, then, then 9 more wraps next week , at a second. then ready for snow I guess. Added in 2 queens each, from 2 different sources for a winter experiment. Have 10 of my own F1 survivor daughters open mated in 3 different Apiaries, so hoping something survives to play with in the spring. Hauled in 1 of 3 loads of pine to use this winter, on build of 20 supers, and 4-6 prototype, double wall hives and my first "wall " hive to try out for next year. All this bee work is starting to cut into my drinking and gambleing time...

Somewhat decent crop 25 or so cases of quarts or pints.
looking forward to next year, could get busy .
If the insulated hive thingy works out I want to convert to it, so 20 or so to make next winter.
overall happy with the bees going into winter. Every deep comb and all but 6 medium comb are deployed, 2 temp lids and one borrowed bottom board so I am fairy maxed for the gear I have.

Your grant deal sounds sweet, if there were one here it would be nice.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Added in 2 queens each, from 2 different sources for a winter experiment.


You've definitely piqued my interest- if you don't mind me asking, did you bring in some more Primorsky stock?[/QUOTE]



Gray Goose said:


> All this bee work is starting to cut into my drinking and gambleing time...


This is funny- so I suppose the bees can be credited for keeping you out of trouble?



Gray Goose said:


> overall happy with the bees going into winter. Every deep comb and all but 6 medium comb are deployed, 2 temp lids and one borrowed bottom board so I am fairy maxed for the gear I have.


I am truly glad to hear this- so overall it sounds like you feel better about your TF prospects now than you did this time last year?


----------



## msl

> I am still not ready to take a cynical approach towards Dr. Seeley's current endeavors, but I do appreciate the opportunity to discuss his results under the microscope of rational critique


I don't think I am being cynical ( Maybe confirmation bias 🤣)
If I was being cynical I would say he couldn't get it published in a peer reviewed journal so he sold it to BC... 🗯


I think Seeley is just writing to the target market... Feral=good, Treatments=bad, Catch swarms=good, California package queens(big ag)=bad ... that kind of thing sells well with them...
Bee Culture is basically a magazine of hobby and backyard beekeepers who have an environmental perspective, they are 55 years old, they read the mother earth news in 1975, the kids are gone, they sold the SUV, and now they want to extend saving the world and in this particular case its honey bees

Those aren't my words, thats Jerry Hayes, Editor Bee Culture Magazine 





Honestly I wouldn't have blinked at anything if he had called the bees what I feel they were... standard commercial italian bees...


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> Those aren't my words, thats Jerry Hayes, Editor Bee Culture Magazine


MSL:

Funny you bring up Jerry Hayes and _Bee Culture_ (I enjoyed the podcast BTW)…

In the October issue, there is an article entitled, _‘Varroa Resistance – Is it Really Possible’_?

https://www.beeculture.com/varroa-resistance/

The author (Mr. Terry Combs) briefly relates his experience over the past 24 years of a treatment-free beekeeping- and affirms a long-term association with Mr. Jerry Hayes based on mutual respect despite a sincere difference of opinions about the _‘…feasibility of breeding honey bees for resistance to Varroa.’_

After researching Mr. Combs, I found that he published a significant three-part series on treatment-free beekeeping last year in the _American Bee Journal_ that is in my opinion well-worth reading and considering. I will plan on posting each of the articles in subsequent posts with accompanying thoughts.

From the article in question we learn that Mr. Combs is of the opinion that there is now enough data available to make an unequivocal assessment about the viability of breeding for resistance. He quotes O.W. Park (c. 1935) who declared (regarding AFB) that, _“…claims regarding resistance have recurred so persistently that they can no longer be ignored. Either there is truth in these claims or there is not. The matter is too vitally important to the beekeeping industry to permit a continuation of the present status of uncertainty.”_

Mr. Combs suggests that the data is clear (based on both his own experience and the current research) that resistance breeding is both viable and resilient.

He remarks, _‘2020 marks 24 years of maternal line survivorship without chemicals or foreign replacement queens. I cannot agree with those saying this can’t be done.’_

He goes on to say, _‘Yearly colony losses have gone from 83% in 1996 to less than 5% in the past few years, with 3 of the last 5 years having no losses. Bees showing DWV damage have also become a thing of the past in my apiary since spiking about 15 years ago.’_

I’ll hold on commenting regarding his process and selection approach for a subsequent article, but it can generally be captured in his sentiment that, _‘To date there is no one universal resistance mechanism used by bees which resist/tolerate/survive with Varroa. Thus the reason that bees bred for only one enhanced trait/behavior/mechanism have not completely solved the Varroa problem. The utilization of different mechanisms in different locations is part of the reason why queens/bees reared in foreign locales do not solve the Varroa problem in a different environment even if showing resistance in their original locale.’_


----------



## msl

I got a PM from Russ that the article was in ABJ not BC!!!
My bad !! when I make a mistake, let me know!!!!

form the combs article


> s. A recent research paper from Seeley et al. lends support to my thoughts:“if a closed population of honey bee colonies is allowed to live naturally, it will develop a balanced relationship with its agents of disease.”


Sadly that's wishful thinking.. it could happen.. but plenty of species have not developed a balanced relationship and have gone extinct when challenged by a human introduced pest.

I am only aware of 2 cases were this has been fully tested with honey bees (closed population) in both cases resticance was not the out come

The Island of Fernando de Noronha off the coast off Brazil ( 10 square miles) were the managed Italian population survives do to the lack of a virulent DWV strain .The hives die form varroa virus if moved off the island and not treated... so no balance/genetic resistance has been achieved and
And _Santa Cruz Island_ off the coast of CA (96 square miles) were they caught 85 bees, put a single mite on each and released them... in a few short years the islands feral population of bees was gone, no balance was achieved



Litsinger said:


> From the article in question we learn that Mr. Combs is of the opinion that there is now enough data available to make an unequivocal assessment about the viability of breeding for resistance. He quotes O.W. Park (c. 1935) who declared (regarding AFB) that, _“…claims regarding resistance have recurred so persistently that they can no longer be ignored. Either there is truth in these claims or there is not. The matter is too vitally important to the beekeeping industry to permit a continuation of the present status of uncertainty.”_


Yet were are those AFB resistant bees now? Why didn't they go mainstream, why did it take a breeding program to create an maintain them.. nature had thousands of years, why did it fail ?



> This ability to rapidly co-evolve with Varroa I have seen since dispensing with chemicals and allowing my bees to create their own maternal line. Yearly colony losses have gone from 83% in 1996 to less than 5% in the past few years, with 3 of the last 5 years having no losses.[11]


Any idea what 11 is?
When some one starts posting loses less then the pre mite era.. my ears pick up

I do like terry's stuff


> hives simply left to their fate and allowed to collapse, sending out varroa bombs, SHB bombs, herds of wax moths and disease-ridden bees into the area? If so, you are very much mistaken.
> 
> And to anyone who calls them self a treatment-free beekeeper and engages in this hands-off approach, don’t think I’m going to justify your neglect and the possibility of you spreading your problems to those around you. You could not be further from the truth, for I don’t even consider you a beekeeper.











Treatment Free Beekeeping: A Practical Hands-On Approach - American Bee Journal


I am a 100% chemically-free beekeeper when it comes to varroa control in my apiaries. Does that conjure up images and thoughts of a totally disconnected bee-haver doing no management other than taking what honey my bees are fortunate enough to make? Apiaries with hives simply left to their fate...




americanbeejournal.com





Any way the selection success for TM resistance does not seem to have been repeated with VM.


----------



## AR1

msl said:


> I think Seeley is just writing to the target market... Feral=good, Treatments=bad, Catch swarms=good, California package queens(big ag)=bad ... that kind of thing sells well with them...
> Bee Culture is basically a magazine of hobby and backyard beekeepers who have an environmental perspective, they are 55 years old, they read the mother earth news in 1975, the kids are gone, they sold the SUV, and now they want to extend saving the world and in this particular case its honey bees


Describes me quite well. Sold the minivan last year, kids are away at college and pretty much independent, bees are fun but no crisis for me if hives die. I'm a bit older and only occasionally read Mother Earth News. It was too expensive. Aimed, if I recall correctly, at wealthy socialists.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> only occasionally read Mother Earth News. *It was too expensive.*


Hehe...
I get my annual Mother Earth News subscription *for free.*
A local library gives them to me every December when they get rid of the older magazines (which is totally fine for the Mother Earth - this content does not get too old).
It is a win-win arrangement.
All you do is ask.


I have to say, many (most?) materials in the magazine are rotating around not really sustainable ideas (or the real costs and the real efforts and all the particulars are not accounted for).
Also many (most?) contributors in the magazine don't really have the very good idea of the topics they claim to have the expertise in.
Not to mention - I suspect the magazine is really staying afloat due to financing by industry (it is really a product selling booklet targeting a specific crowd).
Hate saying it, but still saying it.

Still like the magazine thou - for some of the ideas to try, some of the experiences told, and nice pictures too.


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> Sadly that's wishful thinking.. it could happen.. but plenty of species have not developed a balanced relationship and have gone extinct when challenged by a human introduced pest.
> ...
> Any idea what 11 is?
> When some one starts posting loses less then the pre mite era.. my ears pick up


MSL:

I don’t dispute any of your feedback- based on both research and anecdotes I’ve read, I think there is a great deal we still not know about the nature of varroa-resistance and I for my part am not ready to suggest it is settled science at this juncture.

While I can’t be certain, I wonder if the reference numbers are included in the print edition of _Bee Culture_ and have been left out of the online version. That said, he does directly address his apiary losses in the _American Bee Journal_ series, so this serves as a good segue.

In the first installment of a three-part series entitled _‘Treatment-Free Beekeeping: A Practical Hands-On Approach’_, Mr. Combs largely lays the groundwork to describe the history and lessons-learned that serve as the foundation for his resistance-breeding approach. In this article we learn that:

As of 2018 he has been in beekeeping for over 50 years- he makes this point to underscore that he was significantly engaged in beekeeping in the pre-varroa era.

1996 served as the turning-point for him- he notes, _‘After cleaning out my dead-outs… and being left with no living hives, I ordered two packages, hived three swarms and one cut-out. I decided not to treat for mites and see what happened.’_

He suffered 83% losses the first year (i.e. lost 5 of 6 hives). The only survivor was a package of Caucasian bees from Homan Apiaries in Shannon, MS. It is from this single package he has been able to maintain a matriarchal line from to this day.

His losses the first five years (1996 - 2001) averaged 42%.

His losses the last five years (2013 - 2017) averaged 3%.

He notes that most bee literature does not provide a ‘blueprint’ for how to proceed with bee improvement- so he turned to his efforts in breeding delta-tailed guppy for some guidance- while noting that breeding guppies is very different than breeding bees.

While he goes into much further detail in the subsequent articles, his overarching principles for his TF efforts have centered around: _‘setting goals, recordkeeping, evaluation, selection and culling… ’._


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## gww

Science?
Though there are stuff that may be introduced that could kill the bees, The current facts seem to show that varroa is not the thing. I read the study that showed the unmanaged bees are as dense and have the same or improved life span 10 years after varroa as they were 10 years before varroa. No, I don't know how to find the study with out spending a day or two cause I am no where near as organized as msl.😊

Granted, we may not like to try and manage those bees due to the methods they use to manage varroa on their own. But it seems pretty clear that varroa is not going to exterminate bees as a whole.
Cheers
gww


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## msl

If we didn't test hives we would have a lot less varroa found?



> Granted, we may not like to try and manage those bees due to the methods they use to manage varroa on their own. But it seems pretty clear that varroa is not going to exterminate bees as a whole.


agreed.. beekeepers are in danger, not honeybees as a species... there wild range may shift, but they will still be out there


> No, I don't know how to find the study without spending a day or two cause I am no where near as organized as msl


sounds like Seeley EtAl (2017) Life-history traits of wild honey bee colonies living in forests around Ithaca, NY, USA

not organized, its just all in my head

Thanks for the PDF russ.. good stuff..


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## gww

msl
Good, almost, political satire there on the testing. Yes, I don't test but just love those that do and post their findings. My point was on the extinction but I do find interest in all of it. 

You impress me with the memory cause when I read, I get just a gist of what is being talked about if it is written for a 5 year old and then the rest is gone.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> ... The current facts seem to show that varroa is not the thing.


GWW:

As always, I appreciate your feedback. My point about settled-science is simply that I don't think we can yet assume that varroa resistance would develop universally across a given region assuming we could suddenly make it a closed population- only because we don't collectively know enough to make that assertion definitively.

I agree with you that there have been many examples of relatively closed populations which appear to have developed a stable host-parasite relationship (i.e. Arnot Forest). The question de jour is whether this same relationship would develop everywhere if we allowed Natural Selection to take its course.

For my part, I sincerely hope that the bee populations which are currently allowed to be subjected to Natural Selection are well on their way to a balanced relationship- and I really hope that the bees in my yard represent some progress in this regard ...

Thank you again for your input- have a great week.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> While he goes into much further detail in the subsequent articles, his overarching principles for his TF efforts have centered around: _‘setting goals, recordkeeping, evaluation, selection and culling… ’._


In the second installment of a three-part series entitled _‘Treatment-Free Beekeeping: A Practical Hands-On Approach’_, Mr. Combs describes in detail the mechanisms he has utilized to develop a stable TF stock.

He begins with an observation that I expect is intuitive to most of us who are interested in pursuing resistance breeding- _'I soon learned that making increase from those colonies that had the least percentage of infection was the best way to go.'
_
While I will let anyone who is interested read the details in the article (attached), he offers several general evaluation parameters which are worth mentioning:

_‘In my apiary, I select for low varroa mite levels, winter survival, colony maternal longevity, health, and adaptation to local resources and climate. I eliminate any queens from my breeding program when mites rise above 3 to 4/100 bees.’

‘Therefore, my goals now center on fixing what needs to be fixed, before returning to goals like peak honey production and less defensiveness.’

‘For Varroa, there are two times that I consider most critical in Varroa monitoring; the early spring build-up period, and the fall build-up of the bees that will rear the winter bees.’_

In part III he addresses his specific evaluation matrix and process- I will post it in a subsequent article.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I eliminate any queens from my breeding program when mites rise above 3 to 4/100 bees.’


So far in my program, this will meant I need to eliminate just about ~100% of my bees.
This season only the purchased "breeder" barely makes the cut (but the daughters are already a suspect).
I can spend $$$ to get some magic queen, but will it make a long-term difference in my area?
Not optimistic.

I still don't see how people manage to consistently maintain 3 to 4/100 counts in heavily bee-populated areas.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So far in my program, this will meant I need to eliminate just about ~100% of my bees.
> ...
> 
> I still don't see how people manage to consistently maintain 3 to 4/100 counts in heavily bee-populated areas.


GregV:

Good point- I had exactly the same thought given I am in the same situation regarding mite levels. In following-up with Mr. Combs directly, I learned that the key is:



Litsinger said:


> ... _making increase from those colonies that had the least percentage of infection was the best way to go.'_


Specifically, Terry responded as follows, _'Don't get too caught up in the details-they are a necessity for producing show quality fish, but not for producing Varroa resistant bees. This includes strictly adhering to the 3-4% infestation. Colonies in the wild have to develop resistance/tolerance with varying levels of Varroa and according to researchers are doing so. Several years ago Marla Spivak observed colonies surviving an 8-12% infestation rate. If colonies go beyond 12% requeening with a queen from a better colony should bring levels down. And I never make a decision on just 1 sampling- Varroa infestation rates fluctuate. Freedom from viral symptoms is another good selection criteria. My longest-surviving hive had an infestation of >17% one year, yet showed no viral signs, so I did nothing and now it is the hive with the lowest mite loads for the past 4 years. Some measure of trust must be given to the bees and natural selection to work this out on their own.'_


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## GregB

> ... _making increase from those colonies that had the least percentage of infection was the best way to go.'_




Sure.
It is just common sense.

Now that I have the rough mite estimates, it is already relieving to see how some of the low mite units I have are also the weakest units at the moment (see my update - colonies #2 and #3).
And so these colonies don't look to be ones worth saving - based on the superficial looks.
And yet... 
Indeed, knowing the mite situation is needed for correct decision making.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> In part III he addresses his specific evaluation matrix and process- I will post it in a subsequent article.


In the third and final installment of his _‘Treatment-Free Beekeeping: A Practical Hands-On Approach’_ article, Mr. Terry Combs lays out the actual mechanisms of his evaluation and selection processes.

It begins for him by trying to maintain a long-range perspective regarding the overarching goals that one has for their stock. Terry encourages his reader to, ‘_Look at the big picture during the evaluation / selection process; don’t focus entirely on any one characteristic / trait / behavior. You may find some interesting and thoughtful decisions have to be made.’_

As an example, we previously discussed how the _‘interesting and thoughtful decisions’_ that one might have to make is whether to let a colony with a relatively high mite load hang around in the absence of significant disease symptoms.

That in view, Mr. Combs espouses keeping diligent and consistent records of the colonies to make relatively objective decisions regarding propagation. He explains, _‘We can do more than just select our “best colonies” based solely on what we see and remember. By keeping accurate records, making controlled measurements, using standardized testing, and making educated decisions in the selection process, we can develop a localized, reliable, predictable, pest and disease resistance and productive line of bees.’ _

For Mr. Combs, this evaluation process is materially contained in the _‘Colony Traits Evaluation/Ranking’_ rubric outlined in Part III (attached), which is informed by his standardized _‘Inspection Records’_ outlined in Part I (attached).

In this article he also outlines his two-step Colony Evaluation process, which can generally be summarized as follows:

Step 1- Evaluation in the nucleus: This step is largely focused on evaluating the queen, looking at, _‘brood pattern, build-up and egg-laying rate.’_

Step 2- Evaluation in the full-sized hive: This step is evaluating colony-level issues such as,_ ‘wintering, spring build-up, production, and disease and pest problems.’_

There are many other interesting observations in this series relative to local-adaptation, community breeding efforts, the use of swarm cells, culling, and the use of ‘Drone Mother Colonies’ (DMC’s) that I haven’t time to comment on but are concepts well-worth considering.


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## Litsinger

Here at the mid-point in November all 25 colonies are still in the game.

After our killing frost on the first day of the month we have had a stretch of moderate temperatures which has some of the flora confused. Today I found both forsythia and ladino clover blooming.

I took advantage of the mild weather yesterday to provide sugar slurry to the hives I elected to feed. The only colony I found without sugar on top was #2011.

Today, I found that #2017 had ingeniously worked with the sugar to partially close-off their upper entrance- the photo does it no justice, but they left a single bee-sized opening on the top and bottom of the sugar mass. It is always interesting to watch individual colonies continuously work on the size of the upper entrance through the Winter by manipulating the propolis plug.

I also relocated #2001 from it's previous location in a Pin Oak to a hive stand- I closed them up near dusk and left them confined for 72 hours- only had a few foragers return to the original location once released. They occupy only one (1) Warre box, but it is heavy with nectar.

I also gathered up some Eastern Redbud and Winged Sumac seed today for the purposes of seeding the understory of my field edges- hoping to continue being proactive in removing some invasive understory material (i.e. Autumn Olive) and replacing it with native alternatives.

Unless I see something between now and then which deserves immediate attention, I will likely not mess with them again until sometime near Christmas to check the food situation on the hives that are light.


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## joebeewhisperer

Was just looking at a video I took of a Russian a few days ago. This gal was at least 1 full day late emerging, and was late in the year (late Sept mating). At about 25 secs she goes under an abdomen of a worker who clearly has a mite. I rarely see a mite, except when I take a pic (eyes are not that sharp). 


__
http://instagr.am/p/CHlxitJF8ug/

Here's the thing. This queen has completely shut down, has about 200-300 capped and another ~100 eggs/larvae. Having seen a mite my impulse is like removing a tick from a dog (anyone's dog). However, there is almost nowhere for a mite to hide in this colony, and I really would like to see how this goes over a winter. Full disclosure: I used apivar on all the 10-frame hives (haven't checked counts), but all my nucs are Russians except 1 Italian (only nuc I treated). I realize no one else can make those decisions for you, just welcoming input. Reconciling that some level of mites is a reality, treatment or no, I guess is my issue.


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Reconciling that some level of mites is a reality, treatment or no, I guess is my issue.


Joe:

Thank you for your message. I watched your video- that's a good looking queen!

I concur that there is definitely a mite on the worker as you describe. While I can't be certain, I expect that this mite might truly be phoretic in the sense that it may only be hitching a ride and not actively feeding on that particular bee. I caught a similar photo a couple months ago (see attached). 9 times out of 10, I find the mites feeding on the underside of the bee, between their abdominal segments similar to the photos that Randy Oliver includes in this article:









The Varroa Problem: Part 16a Bee Drift and Mite Dispersal - Scientific Beekeeping


Contents Bee Drift and Mite Dispersal 1 Dispersal of varroa. 2 Phoresy, grooming, and host preference by the mites. 3 The shifting of varroa’s preferred transport. 6 Our unnaturally close placement of hives in apiaries. 7 Measured rates of hive-to-hive worker and drone drift. 7 The Diffusion of...




scientificbeekeeping.com





I think that varroa is a fact of life no matter the treatment regime (or lack thereof). Even if it were possible to eliminate every mite at a particular point in time, there is always robbing and drift to contend with.

So at least in my mind, the question is not whether a colony has mites- but do they have the resources (internal, external or a combination of the two) to allow them to successfully keep the mite load at an acceptable threshold.

Which introduces the question, what is 'acceptable'? And this is the question that we all have to answer for ourselves based on the myriad factors which create the dynamic at work in our individual yards.

I think (at least for us in the relatively mild Southeast), Treatment-Free ultimately all comes down to whether a particular colony has a successful combination of enough internal mechanisms to rear enough healthy winter brood to successfully develop a modest winter cluster. If they can accomplish that and then shut down brood rearing for a couple months, they have a fighting chance to engage in the arms race with varroa again the following Spring.

So, if I knew that brood rearing were shut-down, the colony has 3-4 frames of healthy looking winter bees and plenty of stores I'd be inclined to button them up and let them have a go at overwintering.

I'll be interested to read about what you decide to do, and how it works out for you.

Have a great week.

Russ


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## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> So, if I knew that brood rearing were shut-down, the colony has 3-4 frames of healthy looking winter bees and plenty of stores I'd be inclined to button them up and let them have a go at overwintering.
> 
> I'll be interested to read about what you decide to do, and how it works out for you.
> 
> Have a great week.
> 
> Russ


Thanks Russ, you are super helpful! 

I haven't decided yet, but I'm leaning on let it go. This queen really didn't have time to fire up a great deal of brood. She was left in a nuc I raised a 4-5 queens from so they had decent numbers going in. I moved all the nucs (7-8) into Lyson 6-frame poly hives. In short, they have plenty of stores and a warm place to sleep, not a ton of bees, but Russians keep it tight (so I'm told). 

I realize that the mite issue is more about how we keep bees than whether they would survive in the wild (drift, constant brood, etc.). Just on the fence with treating. There is a feral colony (I call them German) in a tree near my house that's been there for at least 4 years. Do they have mites? Probably. Will they perish if I don't go fog them. Doubt it. We shall see. 

Thanks again, 
Joe


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## GregB

joebeewhisperer said:


> Just on the fence with treating.


What is your end-goal?
Once defined, that usually helps to figure out your moves.


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> I realize that the mite issue is more about how we keep bees than whether they would survive in the wild (drift, constant brood, etc.).


Joe:

Thank you for your reply. I apologize for my delay in responding as I have been proverbially 'snowed-under' of late.

I think you are right that the management decisions we make as beekeepers certainly impact the varroa dynamic... but I am convinced that feral bees with the perfect non-managed environment but bad genetics are just as likely to succumb to the mite menace.

That said, my limited perspective based on my own experience, discussions I have had with other regional TF beekeepers and research I have read suggests to me that part of the secret of successful TF colonies (such as the Primorsky bees) is that their ability to raise an appropriate amount of brood (at appropriate times) sufficient to survive but definitely not in the running to win bragging rights for the most bees boiling out of the box when you crack the lid. 

Here is a good write-up on the Primorsky stock- might give you a good frame of reference with your Russian bees: Primorsky Russian Bees

Do keep me posted what you decide to do. I can certainly understand and appreciate you considering carefully whether to experiment with TF. There are a lot of variables to consider, especially if one decides to run a side-by-side comparison. So I respect you taking the time to determine the most prudent course of action in your specific situation.


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## joebeewhisperer

GregV said:


> What is your end-goal?
> Once defined, that usually helps to figure out your moves.


Thanks Greg, 

That is great advice for anything. But it particularly fits here as I haven't defined definite goals. In general, having a few queens to sell or give away locally and a few nucs to do the same, these are as close to goals as I have set. I was able to do both this year. Assuming 1/2 my bees make it through winter, this should be totally repeatable. Thinking in those terms I could afford to see what happens to a few colonies which have not been treated. Thanks, I'll think in these terms. 


Litsinger said:


> Joe:
> .....
> Here is a good write-up on the Primorsky stock- might give you a good frame of reference with your Russian bees: Primorsky Russian Bees
> 
> Do keep me posted what you decide to do. I can certainly understand and appreciate you considering carefully whether to experiment with TF. There are a lot of variables to consider, especially if one decides to run a side-by-side comparison. So I respect you taking the time to determine the most prudent course of action in your specific situation.


Thanks Russ, 

I appreciate the info. Heading out in a few minutes to play a service in Murfreesboro tonight but will check it out tomorrow. Whatever I do, I will likely do this weekend as we have some warm temps expected. 

I have a local beek friend about 30 miles away that has over 100 colonies. I think most of his are foundationless frames. He gives some essential oils and whatnot, but does no chem treatments. A couple weeks ago he mentioned a vendor trying to sell him some natural (or more natural) cell sized plastic foundation sheets. I'm told him if he put in an order I'd take 100 just to try them out. You have probably covered this thoroughly but do you think the cell size is a big factor here? If so, do you have to regress sizes over a generation or two? I read that somewhere. 

Thanks,
Joe


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## GregB

joebeewhisperer said:


> Assuming 1/2 my bees make it through winter, this should be totally repeatable. Thinking in those terms I could afford to see what happens to a few colonies which have not been treated. Thanks, I'll think in these terms.


OK.
Do keep in mind that even 50% wintering can be a tall order.
I had 100% loss last winter (as I reported in my thread).
This winter - will see.
T-Giving holiday when I usually go around and make the first round of Dead/Alive calls.

I wish I had 50% wintering consistently year after year.
This is one reason I counted my mites the first time this season to understand the situation better.


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## AR1

GregV said:


> OK.
> Do keep in mind that even 50% wintering can be a tall order.
> I had 100% loss last winter (as I reported in my thread).
> This winter - will see.
> T-Giving holiday when I usually go around and make the first round of Dead/Alive calls.
> 
> I wish I had 50% wintering consistently year after year.
> This is one reason I counted my mites the first time this season to understand the situation better.


I also have had 100% loss, and it looks like something TF beekeepers just have to put up occasionally with until some magic bee pans out. It may be Russians or African crosses or whatever. Right now we are not there. 

I am already at 40% loss this year, having had to combine a few weak colonies and had a couple of dead outs from mites and yellow jackets. I have 4 hives that I think have a decent chance of making it through winter, down from 10 active hives in August. This year was very hands-off, since I had so little time to work with them. I was barely able to keep up with catching the swarms, sacrificing much-needed sleep. I ended up with lots of swarms and mostly small colonies unable to defend themselves from the yellow jackets.


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> You have probably covered this thoroughly but do you think the cell size is a big factor here? If so, do you have to regress sizes over a generation or two? I read that somewhere.


Joe:

For what it is worth, I think you are wise to consider as many of these variables as you can before diving in headfirst.

Based on what I have read, I am of the opinion that the jury is still out as to whether cell size (in-and-of-itself) confers any statistically-relevant benefit to mitigating varroa population growth.

What I know personally is that I purchased two (2) 'small cell' packages the first year I got back into beekeeping, dutifully installed them on 4.9 mm foundation and they drew it out beautifully. They progressed well through the season and then both systematically collapsed due to Parasitic Mite Syndrome.

That first year, I also hived two (2) swarms which were also installed on 4.9 mm foundation and they also drew it out successfully and presented the added benefit of overwintering successfully.

Currently, I mainly run foundationless but I do still have a box of 4.9 mm foundation that I utilize one sheet at a time in trying to convince colonies to draw straight comb in otherwise empty boxes- and have noticed that all the colonies I have done this with are perfectly content to draw it out at the 4.9 mm size.

So while your experience may vary, I would summarize my experience as follows:

4.9 mm cell size certainly can't hurt anything, provided the colonies will successfully draw it out.

If you buy some, you might try throwing one or two sheets in each colony as a trial to see how they do with it before integrating it on a larger scale.


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> ... but will check it out tomorrow.


And here is one other write-up from the Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association that has some great information with accompanying research:









Mechanisms Of Resistance


A complimentary combination of various resistance mechanisms and behavioral strategies give Russian honey bees their strong resistance to varroa mites and their great resilience and wintering...



www.russianbreeder.org


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## GregB

joebeewhisperer said:


> You have probably covered this thoroughly but do you think the cell size is a big factor here? If so, do you have to regress sizes over a generation or two? I read that somewhere.


I can safely claim I have been on natural cell for the last 5 year now and the bees had plenty of chances to regress as much as they wanted. I never used foundation and have no plans for it.
Normally bees that I observe do not regress lower than 5.0-5.2 spread (with few rear exceptions).
Nevertheless, ability to build natural cells (larger or smaller) did not prevent my bees from being killed by the mites.
I'd call it a myth - the "small cell" cure.

Conveniently, up here in high mid-west we are not able to keep the AHBs (naturally smaller bees that build smaller natural cells - where the "small cell" myth originated from) .
This demonstrates very well that the small cell is NOT it (it is the genetics, not the cell).


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## joebeewhisperer

Thanks to both of you. Russ, I've read the Primorsky article and I'm reading the mechanisms article now. Seems like the bottom of that page has a lot of other good resources. 

Greg, I too have lost a ton of bees going from 0% to 100% to 75% so I might not have a single living specimen by Feb. The main reason I expanded this year was wanting to start a year with 4-5 living colonies. I've gone into winter with this many several times. I now have 14, so we will see. Either way, I enjoy bees more than any single thing I do, and if I end up buying bees in the spring, I'll buy bees. 

As much as I want to "help" this little colony with the dark queen, I'll never know if these bees can survive varroa without letting them try. They have almost no brood at all, so if hygiene is the answer, they'd better get to chewin'. Perhaps someone will breed the bees that will not tolerate this pestilence in their home. It can't happen soon enough for me. Thanks again, js


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> As much as I want to "help" this little colony with the dark queen, I'll never know if these bees can survive varroa without letting them try.


Joe:

For my part I think this sounds like a worthwhile experiment- do you have any inclination as to the mite load with this colony?

It sounds like you are making good progress with the development of your yard- best of success to you in overwintering this year.

Russ


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## joebeewhisperer

Hi Russ,

This colony is tiny. If they were crowded up, they would easily fit on 2 frames (front and back) and maybe less than that. I really have no idea on any of my nucs (or any hives) on mite load. The 6 nucs I have with Russian queens had not been treated in any way all year. I have one with an Italian queen and I gave that one an apivar strip 6 weeks ago mostly just because they are Italian.

I thought a lot about what you and Greg had said recently. The reason I put ~$1000 in supplies and equipment this year was fundamentally so I could go into winter with enough colonies to bring 4-5 out of winter. Given this, I mixed up an OA dribble and did the whole yard yesterday (7 hives, 7 nucs). Given the small size of several of the colonies I couldn't see adding pressure I could possibly alleviate going in. 

I also bought an ebook of the new book from Coy and Kinderer about the whole process of importing Primorsky bees back in the 90s. It went into a lot of specifics about the Russian's disposition to mites and various mechanisms, along with stats on the experiments and objectives they had early-on. 

Perhaps I'll have the nerve next year to set aside a completely treatment-free yard. As it is, I had to wait too long in the season to make much of a splash 2 of the last 4 years. February will indeed tell the tale. 

Thanks,
Joe


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> ... I couldn't see adding pressure I could possibly alleviate going in.


Joe:

I do understand and respect your position. We are all investing a lot of time, energy and resources into our apiaries with the goal of being successful. While I recognize that we all establish our own goals, I imagine that having enough relatively healthy bees to replenish losses and make increase from each Spring is universal.

While I have no practical experience in this regard, your suggestion of a dedicated TF yard makes a whole lot of sense to me based on everything I have read. Assuming you utilize a similar treatment regime next year, maybe you could consider doing through mite counts throughout the season and use this as an initial evaluation tool to determine which colonies might make good candidates to move to the TF yard.

Do keep us posted on your progress and evaluation measures- many of us are trying to muddle our way through this TF experiment and the more data points (and even anecdotes) we have, the better.

Best of success in your overwintering efforts- looks like we here in the Mid-South are finally going to get a little winter weather here in the coming weeks.

I do sincerely hope that you and your family have a most joyous and blessed Thanksgiving.

Russ


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## joebeewhisperer

Russ,

First of all, may you and yours have a most blessed Thanksgiving as well. This goes to everyone.  We are most fortunate and I once heard it's hard to feel gratitude and feel anything else.

I think a worthwhile goal might be to set a minimum of 5 in one place, from the best stock and let them deal with mites and other things in their own way. I'll consider this. I'm also thinking more data, more better. So some mite counts wouldn't hurt. 

On the subject of more data, I recently read on one of the forums where someone had purchased some inexpensive bluetooth temp and humidity sensors. I asked for the source and after a while they sent the link. They are made by Govee and sold on Amazon. I paid 13.99 each for 2 of them. They are now around $12ea. I put them in yesterday, one in my Italian 6-frame poly nuc, and one in a Russian 10-frame wooden double deep with 18 frames. 

Right now it's 36 (F) outside and 56 inside both hives (center top). They have a phone app and I can check from my kitchen window. It sends a signal every 2-3 minutes. So far both hives are within 1 degree of each other, and roughly 20 above the outside temp. I'm thinking of using a lot more of them. May be common, but I didn't know you could do it affordably.

Thoughts? 

Thanks Russ,
Joe


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Thoughts?


By day I am an engineer, so I firmly believe there is no such thing as too much data- provided of course it does not lead to the dreaded 'analysis paralysis'.

On October 9th of this year, I installed temperature and humidity sensors along with a scale on a single hive in the yard (#2011). My thoughts were to hopefully use one 10-frame Langstroth in the apiary as a 'reference' colony to get a sense of timing relative to brood rearing, flows, etc. At the price you are talking about, I would see little harm and a lot of upside to being able to take a peek inside a particular hive without lifting the lid- particularly at this time of year.

For what it is worth, here are two charts of the last seven days worth of data from #2011- looks like this colony is tracking fairly well with your colonies. Is the cluster in the double deep currently in the bottom box?


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## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> provided of course it does not lead to the dreaded 'analysis paralysis'.


That's good. I've never heard this one but I know exactly what you are talking about.  I looked at the WiFi unit made by the same folks for $32. Then I thought I would end up looking at it at work, the gas station, etc. Better stick with BlueTooth limited to when I'm home.

Looks like your bees are indeed similar. As far as mine being in the bottom box, I hope so because they started lagging by about 6-7 degrees over the last 2 days. Relatively sure they are down below. Outside temp was 37 when this snapshot was taken. js


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Better stick with BlueTooth limited to when I'm home.


At least you know your weakness- I can completely identify with the temptation to be checking-in often.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Here is another detailed survey of the contemporary research into the mechanisms of resistance courtesy of Mr. Les Crowder.

_Natural selection, selective breeding, and the evolution of resistance of honeybees (Apis mellifera) against Varroa_

Two interesting tidbits stood out to me:

1. Regarding Resistance- _'We call a bee colony resistant when it is able to limit the population size of Varroa, to a density that does not cause mortality.'_

While I suppose it would be easy to poke holes in this definition, it does underscore the point that resistance (at least at present) is not precisely defined in terms of MPG or some other similar metric but represents checking mite population growth 'enough' for a population to survive in a self-sustaining fashion.

2. Regarding Cell Size- '_A possible explanation for the variable outcome of studies on small cell size is an interaction between cell size and VSH behaviour. Smaller cells may enhance brood signalling, i.e. in smaller cells suppression of Varroa reproduction by the worker larva, or recognition of cells with reproducing Varroa could be easier. Hence, the variable outcome of studies on small cell size could be caused by variation in VSH behaviour of the bees used in the different studies.'_

Thus suggesting that relative success or failure with changes in cell size may reflect the multi-factorial nature of SMR.


----------



## Gypsi

I have enjoyed this thread a lot. I am not Treatment Free, but I am treatment light. I have never used apivar. or thymol or a host of other things. I have been using OAV since about 2014 a couple of times a year. And I've had hives robbed out, plenty, there was a wild colony in my neighbor's house between floors, when I removed it there were about 6 feet of hive horizontally on one wall and 4 ft length by about 18 inches width, by about 9 inches tall, on the other wall at that corner. so it was big and it killed many of my cutout hives, but not all. I removed it in 2019, and life has been much better since, both for hive robbery (although I still have a stacked nuc box suffering from a couple of attempts during our August dearth), and from mites.

When I removed the wild hive I brought it here, half a block away, stuck it in a stacked nuc and requeened with a Beeweaver queen. That was May of 2019, and my mite count has dropped dramatically since, on all hives. I've treated with Oxalic Acid Vapor a couple of times, once in late winter 2020, fall 2019, and this September I think. I run screened bottom boards with a solid cover board underneath, nice gap for paper or sticky board, and I use some aquatic filter floss to slow the winter wind but allow some air exchange in winter. 

I highly recommend hygenic queens, although my largest hive came in as a large swarm in 2018, and they also are doing quite well. I've been keeping bees here since 2011, and I suspect my drones dominate the air space a bit because there are few other beekeepers within 5 miles, possibly none.


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## Litsinger

Gypsi said:


> That was May of 2019, and my mite count has dropped dramatically since, on all hives.





Gypsi said:


> I highly recommend hygenic queens, although my largest hive came in as a large swarm in 2018, and they also are doing quite well. I've been keeping bees here since 2011, and I suspect my drones dominate the air space a bit because there are few other beekeepers within 5 miles, possibly none.


Gypsi:

First off, thank you for your kind words- and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.

I enjoyed and appreciated reading about your beekeeping efforts to-date, and it sounds like you have figured out a system that is working in your situation. 

Your write-up reminded me that our efforts at selection for resistance are dictated in large part upon the bee population around us, and the more control we can exert over it (be it hiving feral swarms or dominating the DCA's) the closer we come to being successful at maintaining a modicum of resistance traits.

Have you been evaluating mite population growth in any of your colonies over the years to see if any are making progress at keeping mite counts under catastrophic thresholds?

It would be interesting indeed to see how your apiary might respond to the approach outlined in the A shift in message? thread that MSL started. The crux being:



msl said:


> ... be TF when you can, and only use pesticides when pest monitoring hits a threshold that indicates it is needed to head off loss.


Now that you have a good handle on controlling robbing, you could monitor mite levels in each colony and only treat (and possibly re-queen) the individual colonies that cannot pass muster. Just something to think about if you haven't already.

Again, thank you for your encouraging feedback- best of success to you in your overwintering efforts.

Russ


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## Gypsi

Litsinger said:


> Gypsi:
> 
> First off, thank you for your kind words- and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.
> 
> I enjoyed and appreciated reading about your beekeeping efforts to-date, and it sounds like you have figured out a system that is working in your situation.
> 
> Your write-up reminded me that our efforts at selection for resistance are dictated in large part upon the bee population around us, and the more control we can exert over it (be it hiving feral swarms or dominating the DCA's) the closer we come to being successful at maintaining a modicum of resistance traits.
> 
> Have you been evaluating mite population growth in any of your colonies over the years to see if any are making progress at keeping mite counts under catastrophic thresholds?
> 
> It would be interesting indeed to see how your apiary might respond to the approach outlined in the A shift in message? thread that MSL started. The crux being:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that you have a good handle on controlling robbing, you could monitor mite levels in each colony and only treat (and possibly re-queen) the individual colonies that cannot pass muster. Just something to think about if you haven't already.
> 
> Again, thank you for your encouraging feedback- best of success to you in your overwintering efforts.
> 
> Russ



Russ,

I think I have won the mite war for this year. I did treat in late winter/ early spring with Oxalic Acid Vapor. Once. And once in September. And I checked the sticky boards (really just heavy water color paper), and I had chewed wax, and a very little wax moth poop, but I didn't have any mites. I am very pleased. I haven't lost a hive in winter since about 2014 either. or in fall. I haven't lost one except to robbing, and I do mean vicious robbing, in several years. I am fortunate. There are no other beekeepers nearby, not enough forage to make it profitable. And with grassy prairies instead of wildflowers, few wild bees except around my gardens. My ordered queens are from mite resistant hygenic stock and that one survivor hive that came in is nice and gluey, lots of propolis, they do have larger clusters than my Beeweaver girls, but seem to be resistant or hygenic. I'm not changing anything for now, except monitoring for mites via my sticky board. I had a lot of brood in the survivor hive when I changed the bottom board last week, when that brood hatches will be when I will again look for mites below the hive, on that water color paper...

Alice


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## Litsinger

Gypsi said:


> I'm not changing anything for now, except monitoring for mites via my sticky board.


Alice:

Nice post- your results are enviable. As a friend of mine often reminds me, "If it ain't fixed, don't broke it."

Were you surprised to find brood in the survivor colony this time of year in your locale? At least in my specific situation (Climate Zone 7a) it seemed like the girls shut-down earlier that I had noticed in the previous couple of years.


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## Gypsi

I knew they would have brood Russ, she's a very strong queen and we have had flow, been thru ragweed, goldenrod and aster recently, they are still bringing something in. I actually swiped a couple of frames to build up my stacked nuc that this hive has pulled a robbery on once or twice. The nuc is the only hive I will have to feed this winter probably, going to put some 2:1 on and see if they will take it for the next day or 2 to get them a little better set. Our first freeze is probably Monday night, I'm in Texas


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## Litsinger

Gypsi said:


> Our first freeze is probably Monday night, I'm in Texas


Thank you for your feedback, Alice- very helpful.

We have had two nights thus far just below freezing and a very mild November in general but are expecting a low near 25 degrees F on Monday night.

Looks like cooler weather is finally settling-in for us in Western Kentucky.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> It begins for him by trying to maintain a long-range perspective regarding the overarching goals that one has for their stock. Terry encourages his reader to, ‘_Look at the big picture during the evaluation / selection process; don’t focus entirely on any one characteristic / trait / behavior. You may find some interesting and thoughtful decisions have to be made.’_


I wanted to make one final post relative to Mr. Terry Comb's feedback relative to his TF selection efforts. In following-up with him, I asked him to the effect, _'If you were starting-over today knowing what you know now, how would you go about it'_?

His responses (paraphrased) indicated he would focus on five (5) main selection criteria, organized in order of importance:

1) Survivability
2) Local adaptability and population build-up and fall-off in concert with the seasons
3) Lack of diseases and pests within the colonies 
4) Mite loads
5) Honey production 

Thus the overarching framework would look something like this:

1. Begin by organizing/evaluating stock according to Items 1 - 3.

2. Assuming a collection of colonies reflect materially similar results to Items 1-3, then relative mite load becomes the next differentiator, with preference given to lower MPG over time- using a mite wash (rather than a mite drop).

3. Once a relatively stable local base of genetics has been built that can successfully address items 1-4, then selection for other beekeeper-desired traits (i.e. honey production) can begin to be selected for.


----------



## Litsinger

An interesting article was recently posted on Bee-L (with kind assist by MSL) that conducts a literature review of the current state of global resistance breeding and offers several broad-brush recommendations for multi-factorial selection design based on the current body of knowledge surrounding survival.

_Advances and perspectives in selecting resistance traits against the parasitic mite Varroa destructor in honey bees_

A few of the interesting observations:

Selection programs have focused on resistance rather than tolerance-
_Indeed, survival is often attributed to resistance traits, which, by definition, reduce the parasitic load of the host. Tolerance mechanisms, which allow the host to sustain high parasitic loads, are also likely to favor colony survival and to be naturally selected, but currently their impact remains largely hypothetical. To our knowledge, no selection program includes tolerance traits; thus, such mechanisms are not considered in this review._

Lack of sustained progress on a global nor national scale relative to resistance might be due at least in part to the lack of collective understanding regarding the underlying resistance mechanisms -
_In Europe, numerous resistance selection programs aiming at increasing the frequency of resistance traits in populations started in the 1980s, but it has not yet been possible to improve survival of untreated colonies on a broad scale. In North America, lower colony losses of selected lineages (‘Russian’, Varroa sensitive hygiene) were recorded. However, high colony losses attributed to V. destructor are still reported in the United States, which suggests that the current selection strategies have not resulted in a large-scale, sustainable host–parasite equilibrium. Whereas in both regions, knowledge of resistance mechanisms may be increasing, a detailed overview of the achievements of past and current selection programs on which to base further progress towards increasing the ability of colonies to survive infestations by V. destructor is lacking.

As long as the impact of local environment on the ability of the selected traits to limit infestation remains unknown, progress towards surviving stock will likely be limited. Finally, practical limitations make selection processes tedious and limit their efficient implementation in the field. The available literature shows that proposals made 30 years ago still have to be achieved. 

The lack of progress towards the selection of honey bee lineages surviving infestations by V. destructor is probably not due to the generation time of the honey bee, which is short compared to other livestock such as cattle, but is likely due to caveats in selection strategies and knowledge gaps in our understanding of resistance mechanisms.

The choice of traits currently used in selection for resistance derives from observations of naturally-resistant colonies. However, the traits or combination of traits that provide protection to infested colonies have not been empirically determined. Thus, the role of currently used traits towards improving survival remains hypothetical._

A review of the relative efficacy of single-factor phenotypes on survival-
_Our approach consisted of considering whether trait attributes and selection design conformed to the theoretical framework known to lead to genetic progress towards a selection objective (Fig. 1). The factors known to affect selection progress that we considered are: (1) the choice of relevant selection traits, which should provide accurate colony phenotypes, should be heritable and should be linked to the selection objective (i.e., colony survival); (2) the environmental effect that can hinder the expression of heritable traits; and, (3) beyond the theoretical considerations, the practical limitations of selection strategies during field implementation._










A consideration of the interdependent nature of colony and parasite dynamics on trait expression-
_… fluctuations in brood production may explain, at least partly, why within-colony distribution of V. destructor is spatially heterogeneous, which affects the expression of VSH: a stronger VSH response is obtained if many infested cells are clustered in a small brood area. Also affected by brood dynamics is the proportion of damaged mites, which is used as a proxy for the grooming ability of a colony. More damage was recorded when the brood was emerging, possibly due to mites being more vulnerable to grooming when they are changing their host from emerging workers to nurses compared to when they are adhering to adult workers.

Such fluctuating interdependence might result in the selection of a trait not responsible or only partially responsible for increased resistance or survival.

The literature focusing on resistance traits indicates that several agents can affect their expression. These agents are the parasite itself, other pests and the host via its biological attributes or via the interaction between resistance traits. As a result, only part of the phenotype measured reflects the ability of a colony to defend itself against the parasite._

The relative importance of environmental factors and local adaptation-
_The overall variability in the strength of the link between traits and survival recorded in the literature suggests that a major challenge for selection programs lies in defining the most relevant trait to select for in a given population. When this link appears weak, survival of selected populations may be attributable to environmental factors rather than to the increase in frequency of a heritable trait.

Although their designs do not allow conclusions to be drawn on the occurrence of genotype-by-environment, several other studies suggest their involvement and convincingly show high environmental effects on survival… The likely frequent occurrence of genotype-by-environment interactions indicates that adaptation to local conditions plays a major role in colony survival and restrains the possibility to export resistant colonies to regions with different environments. Because of the lack of initial local adaptation, importing resistant colonies from other regions or environments bears low chances of success, and selecting local stock is recommended._

The prospect of epigenetics and social learning-
_It is worth noting that heritability might be confounded by epigenetic processes. A genetically inherited trait is indistinguishable from a trait acquired via social learning, when workers have the ability to transmit acquired knowledge across generations: thus, behaviours may be expressed by related workers without a genetic causality.

Such a phenomenon could lead to the loss of resistance if queens from selected lines are introduced into foreign colonies._


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## Litsinger

After our first sustained foray into a stretch of cold weather the last two weeks, the last two days have been quite enjoyable- sunny, low wind speed and highs in the upper 60's F.

This has had all the colonies out conducting cleansing flights, general housekeeping and about half are coming back with modest amounts of bright yellow-orange pollen.

The only colony conspicuous by their inactivity is #2012. There are still clustered bees in the hive but I am putting them on the watch list for early failure.

Based strictly on the temperature data coming from #2011 it does not appear that any significant brood rearing has begun.


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## Litsinger

Another well-documented literature review of resistant European Honey Bee stocks on a global scale has been published in the December edition of the journal _Insects_:

_Geographical Distribution and Selection of European Honey Bees Resistant to Varroa destructor_

From the abstract:

_‘We describe numerous resistant populations surviving without acaricide treatments, most of which developed under natural infestation pressure. Their common characteristics: reduced brood development; limited mite population growth; and low mite reproduction, may cause conflict with the interests of commercial beekeeping. Since environmental factors affect varroa mite resistance, particular honey bee strains must be evaluated under different local conditions and colony management.’_

Some of the highlights:

Apis mellifera in Japan- _‘Colonies of A. mellifera were introduced to Japan in 1876 and no doubt to other parts of the Far East in the same period, and kept alongside A. cerana. It seems curious, therefore, that reports of the devastating damage caused by the mite did not occur until many years later when the mite was found in Europe in the early 1970s. How could it have existed in A. mellifera colonies in the Far East for sixty years without reports of widespread damage when in Europe colony death commonly occurs less than three years after infestation?’_

Grooming behavior key- _‘… several peer-reviewed studies have shown that the most important and the only statistically significant factor associated to low Varroa population growth and mite removal is grooming behavior …’_

Primorski Bees- _‘Despite twenty years of work … the precise mechanisms for the varroa survival of the honey bee colonies remain somewhat unclear, as does the degree to which these bees will survive without varroa treatment. However, it is clear that a number of factors are involved, in particular a reduced number of viable female offspring, an increased hygienic response, the removal of infested brood preventing successful mite reproduction, and the removal of phoretic mites through grooming.’_

US feral stock- _‘It has been demonstrated in the USA that feral colonies have lower varroa population growth compared to managed colonies.’_

Blacquière Bees (i.e. ‘Darwinian Black Box’)- _‘The main traits of selection utilized in their approach were the ability of the colonies to grow rapidly (colony growth rate has been determined as a significant predictor of colony success), to survive winter despite the presence of varroa, and then to again develop well in spring. Thus, only those colonies were kept and allowed to produce the following generation that survived the winter, increased in size and produced drones in spring.’_

Shifts in behavior to cope with novel parasites- _‘It is suggested that VSH, this cost-effective social immunity mechanism, could have evolved rapidly and independently in varroa-surviving or resistant A. mellifera populations without sacrificing nestmates, which would provide evidence that honey bees can overcome exotic parasites with simple qualitative and quantitative adaptive shifts in behavior.’_


----------



## Litsinger

In the January 2021 edition of the _American Bee Journal_ there is an update regarding the Fall 2020 CLOSS eConference.

This included a summary of the 'Survivors Task Force' which summarized their current objectives, _'... to find survivors and understand the reason for this.'_

A key component of these twin objectives is inviting participation in their '_Honey Bee Watch_' survey to help identify the location and nature of colonies surviving without treatments:






Page Not Available | Mailchimp







www.honeybeewatch.com





Thus if you are aware of surviving colonies and are inclined to participate, they welcome your input. 

It is available for participation to anyone worldwide and takes 5 - 10 minutes to complete.


----------



## Litsinger

The first dead-out of the season this week afforded me the opportunity to observe what a colony would do as regards to setting up their broodnest when left largely to their own devices.

The colony in question (#2017) was a May 15th swarm that issued from one of two colonies that were originally hived in 2018.

They were installed in two (2) 8-frame Langstroth Illinois depth boxes with nine (9) 1-1/4” width frames per box, with 4.9 mm foundation installed in frames 4 and 6. The remaining frames were only suppled with wooden starter strips.

Throughout the season the colony drew out all nine (9) frames in the top box as well as some comb in the upper rim.

I evaluated the frames for the following:

Cell Size- Measuring approximately in the middle of both the inside and outside of all frames the worker cells averaged 5.1 mm, with the smallest being 4.9 mm (drawn foundation) and the largest being 5.2 mm. This average value compares favorably with previous measurements of comb from a few top-bar Warre colonies in the yard. There was only one small (1-1/2” X 2”) patch of drone comb located on the outside of Frame #8. The drone cell size measured approximately 5.6 mm.

Housel Positioning- Of the seven (7) frames that the colony had complete choice, only three (3) adhered to the anticipated orientation of the ‘Y’s’. To be fair, I did not count the center frame one way or another as I am uncertain which way the cells on the center frame ‘should’ be imprinted with an odd number of frames.

Evidence of Disease- The queen was found by herself headfirst in a cell near the top of Frame #6. The reminder of the colony (softball-sized) was found clustered within the sugar installed above the top bar. Frame #3 was the only frame found with un-emerged brood and it exhibited evidence of perforated cappings- thus I would conclude that varroosis is the cause of demise.

Otherwise, the frames are drawn out beautifully and should serve well for installation in another colony.


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## gww

Bummer on the hive loss but thanks to the autopsy. I hope all is well.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I hope all is well.


GWW:

Good to hear from you- we are well by God's grace, and I sincerely appreciate you asking.

Haven't seen you on in awhile- I do hope all is well with you, your family, your bees and your guitar picking?

I sincerely hope that you and your crew have a most joyous and blessed Christmas.

Russ


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## gww

Russ
No picking, just poor strumming. All is well. Thank you,
gww


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## Litsinger

Today's high of 57 degrees F presented a good opportunity to complete a brief assessment of all colonies. After a quick peek from both above (via screened inner cover) and below (via screened bottom board), the only colony that was provided additional supplemental sugar was #2011.

It was also time to conduct the Winter 48-hour mite drop assessments (as attached).

Finally, I evaluated the mite drops for damage. This was the first time I have done so following a conversation with Mr. Krispn Given with Purdue University relative to evaluation of mite mouth parts (gnathsoma). In short, I wanted to clarify with him whether the Purdue protocol included evaluations for damage to the gnathsoma (which he confirmed) relative to the 'New Damage Categories' paper published in 2017.

While I will spare you the gory details, I now feel more confident in evaluating the mouthparts for damage- in fact, it is now the first place I focus on for assessments. The following video gives a good sense of a live (and undamaged) mite anatomy from the ventral side:


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## Litsinger

Our nighttime low of approximately 16 degrees F on Christmas Eve produced the second dead-out of the season (#2012). This colony was a swarm hived on May 1st that never really took off and has been on the watch list all season.

They drew-out almost a full Warre box, albeit on a 45 degree angle from the entrance and the spacing of the interior combs is approximately 1-1/2" center-to-center, which seems to be consistent with the value noted in colonies around here which choose to improvise on the top bars (currently at 1-1/4" center-to-center).

In the spirit of experimentation, I decided to try Squarepeg's trick of doing a mite wash on the dead cluster. There were exactly 241 bees in the cluster and an alcohol wash with through shaking produced 21 mites.

I sincerely hope you all have a healthy and prosperous New Year, filled with an abundance of God's simple gifts.


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## Tigger19687

How did that box get so wonky? Did you not check it?
Sorry if you stated that earlier as I did not read all 86 pages


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## gww

Russ
Nice report.
Cheers
gww


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> In the spirit of experimentation, I decided to try Squarepeg's trick of doing a mite wash on the dead cluster. There were exactly 241 bees in the cluster and an alcohol wash with through shaking produced 21 mites.


Why did this not occur to me?
Darn.
I should also wash the dead outs (nothing to loose there).
Especially, since I had mite count # this year, it would be interesting to see the postmortem counts.


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## Litsinger

Tigger19687 said:


> How did that box get so wonky?


Tigger:

Good question. This swarm was hived in a Warre box with only top bars- no foundation nor comb guides were supplied.

While I can only speculate, I suspect the comb orientation reflects the comb configuration of the colony from which this swarm emanated.

In the following research, Dr. De Jong outlines unpublished research by Martin, Lindauer and Von Frisch which suggests that colonies will, _'...build the parallel combs in the same plane as the combs of the parent colony.'



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/226233303_Orientation_of_comb_building_by_honeybees


_
I was given several Warre hive set-ups from a friend when he got out of beekeeping and after working with them concluded that they are too unruly for my tastes and are thus now treated as genetic resources in the yard- meaning, they are largely left to their own devices and I only intervene in the case of maintenance or clean-up.

Thank you again for your question- feel welcome to chime in anytime.

Happy New Year-

Russ


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Why did this not occur to me?


GregV:

Good to hear from you- to be fair, I was only aware of this trick from reading about Squarepeg doing it... so all the credit goes to him.

I hope your remaining colonies are holding-up well thus far, and Happy New Year to you and your family.

Russ


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## Cloverdale

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Good to hear from you- to be fair, I was only aware of this trick from reading about Squarepeg doing it... so all the credit goes to him.
> 
> I hope your remaining colonies are holding-up well thus far, and Happy New Year to you and your family.
> 
> Russ


Have a prosperous honey bee year Russ, God bless. Deb


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## Litsinger

Cloverdale said:


> Have a prosperous honey bee year Russ, God bless.


Thank you, Deb. And same to you. May God bless you and your family in this coming year. Despite the shared challenges of 2020, we still have much to be thankful for... though I will be glad to have this year in the rearview mirror.


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## JWPalmer

Happy New Year Russ, I am surprised you didn't blame the diagonal comb on Lay lines, magnetic fields, effect of gamma rays on man in the moon marigolds, or some other hard to prove concept. Same orientation as the original hive certainly sounds more plausible. Thanks for the link to the article. I'll give it a read tomorrow.


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## Cloverdale

JWPalmer said:


> Happy New Year Russ, I am surprised you didn't blame the diagonal comb on Lay lines, magnetic fields, effect of gamma rays on man in the moon marigolds, or some other hard to prove concept. Same orientation as the original hive certainly sounds more plausible. Thanks for the link to the article. I'll give it a read tomorrow.


I have to chuckle at your response JW; I respect all beekeepers and their own personal discoveries, especially those that have so much more experience than I, which is most. Please read this: Bees and Energy (Ley?) Lines ( this is Dave Cushmans site) Now Dave Cushmans site is updated by the renowned Roger Patterson of the UK, who did various lectures on beekeeping at the National Honeyshow in the UK, which were very informative. Read what he had to say.


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## JWPalmer

Deb, I am too ignorant to know if Ley lines or magnetic fields play a role or not. Sea turtles navigate thousands of miles based on the earth's magneteic fields, so I do not discount these theories to the tin foil hat arena. I do like theories where the results can be reproduced repeatedly. Be curious to know if the oldest of the comb was also on the side of the box that got the most sunlight. (Warmth)


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## msl

Since there is no way for science to detect or verify the presence of ley lines, its a hard prospect to test.


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## Litsinger

Cloverdale said:


> Read what he had to say.


Deb:

Thank you for the article. Like you, I respect Roger and found his write-up compelling.

Ultimately, my personal sentiments are generally captured by Roger's comment that, _'As an engineer I have always thought the work on bee navigation and communication done by Karl von Frisch didn't explain fully what was happening and there may be more to it that hasn't been discovered.'_

My training compels me to follow the science where it will go. My life experience reminds me there are many, many things that science has not (or ultimately cannot) fully-explain.

Thanks again for the post. I enjoyed the read.

Russ


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## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> Be curious to know if the oldest of the comb was also on the side of the box that got the most sunlight. (Warmth)


Happy New Year, JW.

The hive body in question was facing almost directly due East relative to the entrance and it would appear that the initial comb was drawn almost smack-dab in the center of the volume (see attached photo).

That said, I have seen colonies around here cheat to the South side of the box during initial comb building activities. I wonder given that this swarm was hived on May 1st that it was already reliably warm enough for them to switch their goals to maximizing the comb surface area in the cavity?

Always something to learn about these amazing creatures...


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## Cloverdale

JWPalmer said:


> Deb, I am too ignorant to know if Ley lines or magnetic fields play a role or not. Sea turtles navigate thousands of miles based on the earth's magneteic fields, so I do not discount these theories to the tin foil hat arena. I do like theories where the results can be reproduced repeatedly. Be curious to know if the oldest of the comb was also on the side of the box that got the most sunlight. (Warmth)


Ah who knows really about this type of thing? I thought it was intriguing that Dave Cushman wrote about them, but even more puzzling is that when I reread the category Ley Lines it seems the original writings have been changed somewhat by Roger Patterson; it seems he wants to continue the LeyLine/swarm theory. I chuckled because I was crucified on BeeL a few years ago posting this info, everything from crystals to tin foil hats, and Roger Patterson actually posted in Dave Cushmans defense of his findings. I’d like to know his findings.


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## msl

Cloverdale said:


> everything from crystals to tin foil hats


for good reason.. how do you find a lay line?the answer is by dousing, witch like many things in this field fails to prove itself any more effective then random chance under sinstific scrunty. A favorite randy oliver quote of mine "the easiest person to fool is your self" 

but how can you be sure the effect isn't a Hartmann line?or a Curry line, or a Benker line or Peyre line?
the last 3 are said to be about 2x as wide (40cm) and may have stronger effect on a bee hive.


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## Cloverdale

Litsinger said:


> Deb:
> 
> Thank you for the article. Like you, I respect Roger and found his write-up compelling.
> 
> Ultimately, my personal sentiments are generally captured by Roger's comment that, _'As an engineer I have always thought the work on bee navigation and communication done by Karl von Frisch didn't explain fully what was happening and there may be more to it that hasn't been discovered.'_
> 
> My training compels me to follow the science where it will go. My life experience reminds me there are many, many things that science has not (or ultimately cannot) fully-explain.
> 
> Thanks again for the post. I enjoyed the read.
> 
> Russ


Thank you Russ; like you and JW have pointed out there is much beyond my comprehension, and when people like Roger Patterson take time to do “citizen science” projects I like to hear about their findings. Remember Sam Ramsey, now Dr. Sam, though not a citizen scientist, what his findings did to the bee scientists/community. A humble man.


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## Cloverdale

msl said:


> for good reason.. how do you find a lay line?the answer is by dousing, witch like many things in this field fails to prove itself any more effective then random chance under sinstific scrunty. A favorite randy oliver quote of mine "the easiest person to fool is your self"
> 
> but how can you be sure the effect isn't a Hartmann line?or a Curry line, or a Benker line or Peyre line?
> the last 3 are said to be about 2x as wide (40cm) and may have stronger effect on a bee hive.


How true MSL, who knows? I knew someone that doused for water in the ground, I cannot understand how that works, let alone magnetc “lines”.... I have great respect for Dave Cushman, George Imrie, Roger Patterson, Mike Palmer, and many many others, on this site too. My take on this is people, everyone, is a little quirky. Deb


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## Litsinger

Cloverdale said:


> My take on this is people, everyone, is a little quirky.


Deb:

I smiled when I read this...

While we might not have clear consensus on energy lines, it is my opinion that this comment is beyond dispute .

Thank you for the thought-provoking discussion.

Russ


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Our nighttime low of approximately 16 degrees F on Christmas Eve produced the second dead-out of the season (#2012). This colony was a swarm hived on May 1st that never really took off and has been on the watch list all season.
> 
> They drew-out almost a full Warre box, albeit on a 45 degree angle from the entrance and the spacing of the interior combs is approximately 1-1/2" center-to-center, which seems to be consistent with the value noted in colonies around here which choose to improvise on the top bars (currently at 1-1/4" center-to-center).
> 
> In the spirit of experimentation, I decided to try Squarepeg's trick of doing a mite wash on the dead cluster. There were exactly 241 bees in the cluster and an alcohol wash with through shaking produced 21 mites.
> 
> I sincerely hope you all have a healthy and prosperous New Year, filled with an abundance of God's simple gifts.
> 
> View attachment 61604
> View attachment 61605
> View attachment 61606
> View attachment 61607
> View attachment 61608


Russ,
good notes
21 on 241 almost 10% defiantly an impact.

The wonky box has a neat look could be used as a super for cut and strain.

For an interesting experiment, next box you place in that spot put the top bars parallel to the comb built this time. seeing is believing.

have a great year

GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ... seeing is believing.


Thank you for your feedback, GG. You've got me intrigued now- what should I expect to see that will have me believing?

I sincerely hope you have a great bee year too. How's the bee barn coming along?


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Thank you for your feedback, GG. You've got me intrigued now- what should I expect to see that will have me believing?
> 
> I sincerely hope you have a great bee year too. How's the bee barn coming along?


IMO in the same stand the bees will build the comb in the same orientation, so if you twist the stand to match the old comb way and it works, you will be a believer, if you move the stand in the method discussed , and again they cross comb a different way, then I am all wet.

GG


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## squarepeg

i have forgotten which thread the topic of smr was being discussed in, and i'm not sure if this paper has been mentioned yet, but i just received notice of it today.









Evaluation of Suppressed Mite Reproduction (SMR) Reveals Potential for Varroa Resistance in European Honey Bees (Apis mellifera L.)


In the fight against the Varroa destructor mite, selective breeding of honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) populations that are resistant to the parasitic mite stands as a sustainable solution. Selection initiatives indicate that using the suppressed mite reproduction (SMR) trait as a selection...




www.mdpi.com


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> IMO in the same stand the bees will build the comb in the same orientation


GG:

Thank you for your response, and I apologize for my delay in reply as I have been 'snowed under' with work of late.

I might just give this experiment a go this Spring. Would you suggest I put the box with drawn comb back in this location and add an empty box below or start off with no drawn comb and see if the comb is drawn parallel to the top bars when the entrance is oriented approximately aligned with the box that was drawn out this year?

I see some challenges to the experimental design no matter which way I go so I am inviting your input.

Hope all your cold-blooded ladies are overwintering successfully thus far.

Russ


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> In the spirit of experimentation, I decided to try Squarepeg's trick of doing a mite wash on the dead cluster. There were exactly 241 bees in the cluster and an alcohol wash with through shaking produced 21 mites.


So I got more dead-outs (details later).

Got me thinking....
Why exactly use alcohol to wash out *dead mites off of dead bees*?
Wouldn't just simple water do the same trick?

I understand alcohol is needed to kill the mites so they fall off the bees.
But why kill the dead mites?


PS: isopropyl alcohol is cheap enough to worry about it; 
but one still needs to drive to get it when no more left at home


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## JWPalmer

GregV said:


> But why kill the dead mites?


Same reason we have hot water heaters and beat a dead horse.


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## crofter

Solvent, wetting agent and breaks surface tension.


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## JWPalmer

crofter said:


> Solvent, wetting agent and breaks surface tension.


Frank, I find that alcohol takes away a lot more than just surface tension. It makes things downright relaxed.


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## Litsinger

GregV:

Good question. I will only add that Mr. Randy Oliver recently had a great series in the American Bee Journal on this very topic.

Here is the final installment (well worth the read IMHO) in which he summarizes:

_"Isopropyl alcohol at 70% concentration has long been considered to be the “gold standard” for mite washes. But the 91% concentration is clearly more effective.

To my surprise, one dishwashing liquid, Dawn Ultra, not only performed equally as well as 91% isopropyl alcohol, but requires less agitation, is cheaper, and is non-flammable. We’ve now performed well over a thousand mite washes with Dawn, and are very pleased with it. I’m not stuck on Dawn — I suspect that any foaming detergent containing enough sodium lauryl and laureth sulfate would work well.
_
*Practical application: For best results, allow the bees to sit in the detergent solution for a minute or two before agitation — most of the mites will have by then dropped to the bottom of their own accord. Then agitate by swirling, not shaking."*


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## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> Frank, I find that alcohol takes away a lot more than just surface tension. It makes things downright relaxed.


Now that is funny, JW. I am laughing out loud!


----------



## joebeewhisperer

JWPalmer said:


> Frank, I find that alcohol takes away a lot more than just surface tension. It makes things downright relaxed.





Litsinger said:


> Now that is funny, JW. I am laughing out loud!


Ya'll ain't right. 

You did get me thinking. Perhaps you could do a weak ethyl alcohol dribble between the frames and the mites would fall off and the bees have a party. Fogging with cannabis might work too, but neither the mites nor the bees are likely to get much done after that, at least for several days. That's the way it appeared to work on a few folks in our neighborhood, results may vary.


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> That's the way it appeared to work on a few folks in our neighborhood, results may vary.


To be sure, it would bring new meaning to the word 'smoker' and I know of more than a few folks who would suddenly be rather interested in taking up the hobby...


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## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> To be sure, it would bring new meaning to the word 'smoker' and I know of more than a few folks who would suddenly be rather interested in taking up the hobby...


Bahaha!!!  Thanks Russ, I've felt rough for days, and that one got a laugh out of me.


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> I've felt rough for days, and that one got a laugh out of me.


I for one am thankful for the gift of laughter... even laughing at myself most of the time.

As Proverbs 17:22 reminds us, 'A joyful heart is good medicine, But a broken spirit dries up the bones.'

I sincerely hope you find joy in the midst of everyday life this week.

Russ


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> GG:
> 
> Thank you for your response, and I apologize for my delay in reply as I have been 'snowed under' with work of late.
> 
> I might just give this experiment a go this Spring. Would you suggest I put the box with drawn comb back in this location and add an empty box below or start off with no drawn comb and see if the comb is drawn parallel to the top bars when the entrance is oriented approximately aligned with the box that was drawn out this year?
> 
> I see some challenges to the experimental design no matter which way I go so I am inviting your input.
> 
> Hope all your cold-blooded ladies are overwintering successfully thus far.
> 
> Russ


no if you start with it started I would think they continue.

My suggestion was for that stand location,, set the next swarm there with the bars oriented to the way the comb was drawn by the previous hive, with a rotate to match. then if it is on the bars there may be a reason, if not then we may be back to the way of the old hive.

I try to turn the hive to match what the bees are doing rather than cut and move comb fighting them, more due to the time it take to futz with it than any other reason.

GG


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Solvent, wetting agent and breaks surface tension.


Alcohol is a very effective solvent and desiccant and, thus, an effective insecticide/miticide.
But why kill the dead mites?
LOL.

Anyway, I will test and see for myself if hot water is just as efficient on dead bee and dead mite mix to separate them.


----------



## crofter

JWPalmer said:


> Frank, I find that alcohol takes away a lot more than just surface tension. It makes things downright relaxed.


Yep! Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker! Moderation is the key.


----------



## msl

Litsinger said:


> Practical application: For best results, allow the bees to sit in the detergent solution for a minute or two before agitation — most of the mites will have by then dropped to the bottom of their own accord.


worth noting that the mites are dropping do the bees struggling from a slow death compared to a quick kill with alcohol


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ... set the next swarm there with the bars oriented to the way the comb was drawn by the previous hive, with a rotate to match.


GG:

Thank you for your response. I sincerely appreciate it. If the fates allow, I will definitely take you up on this experiment and note the results here.

As always, I appreciate your input. You have a lot of good ideas and the ability to think outside the box.

Russ


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> ... worth noting that the mites are dropping do the bees struggling from a slow death compared to a quick kill with alcohol


MSL:

I respect your position on this. Like you, I endeavor to not inflict undue harm or suffering on any living creature and can understand why some would avoid using soap from this standpoint.

That said, I recognize that the collected bees are in-fact insects and as good as dead either way so I personally assign no moral imperative to the method.

In this particular case, we are talking about dead-outs and I offered the dish detergent commentary from the perspective of GregV looking for other methods that might be easier to execute in a remote yard (i.e. it might be easier and safer to pack around a bottle of Dawn rather than a bottle of 180 proof).

I do appreciate your willingness to push-back on my commentary- helps keep things between the ditches!

Russ


----------



## msl

Litsinger said:


> That said, I recognize that the collected bees are in-fact insects and as good as dead either way so I personally assign no moral imperative to the method


Right, you dealing with "cells" of a superorganism that have a limited life span of a few week and can't reproduce, not much different then a blood sample.. I am completely fine with it as if you need a sample, you need a sample...

My concern was the extra twitching could be traumatic for some, turning them away from washes and maybe samping for good, as often happens looks like I didn't finish writing my thought


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> I for one am thankful for the gift of laughter... even laughing at myself most of the time.
> 
> As Proverbs 17:22 reminds us, 'A joyful heart is good medicine, But a broken spirit dries up the bones.'
> 
> I sincerely hope you find joy in the midst of everyday life this week.
> 
> Russ


Thanks Russ, and may you find laughter as well friend. It has indeed been a gift from God around here at times. 

So laugh with me, or laugh at me because I've done some really ridiculous stuff. Either way I hope folks laugh. Everyone feels better when they laugh.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> So laugh with me, or laugh at me because I've done some really ridiculous stuff.


I'm right there with you, Joe. I find I am a lot less stressed when I stop taking myself so seriously. So feel welcome to laugh at my mistakes...


----------



## Litsinger

This winter, my personal beekeeping education goals have centered upon the resistance breeding work of the estimable Dr. John Kefuss- who pioneered the now ubiquitous ‘Bond’ test for resistance breeding.

While my feedback might be nothing new to those who have been long-familiar with Dr. Kefuss’ work, I thought it might be helpful to others like me who are lately come to the ‘Treatment-Free’ scene to share some brief observations concerning his research and methods- and I’ll endeavor to dole them out in fairly succinct and focused categories to hopefully elicit input and feedback from others here on the forum who wish to contribute.

To begin, I think three (3) brief observations about his background and work might be in order (and might serve as good reminders to all of us):

He stands on the shoulders of giants- As Sir Isaac Newton understood, our understanding of scientific principles (and our progress thereby) are materially-predicated on the discoveries of those who have come before us. To be certain, Dr. Kefuss’ work and methods were both informed and inspired by the seminal work of Dr. Walter C. Rothenbuhler who in-turn was mentored and influenced by Dr. O.W. Park- two great bee researchers who did much to advance our understanding of bee biology and our ability to breed for resistance.
Despite his achievements he remains inquisitive and eager to learn from others- I am struck by how often he invites the greater beekeeping community at-large to explore new avenues of resistance breeding and expresses and expectation he will glean something from them. A couple representative quotes:
Speaking to Solomon Parker _- “I hope your new generation of beekeepers will introduce me to a whole new group of ideas.”_
Interview from the 2018 Austrian Treatment Free Beekeeping Conference- _“Don’t try to close your mind- maybe somebody has an idea that is quite good. It’s not because you think something is good that it is necessarily good. And I know that I’ve often changed my mind on ideas on different things because I tested out ideas and I saw that it didn’t work.”_
He has a keen sense of the imperative to leave a positive legacy- He often speaks of the obligation or responsibility that we collectively share to both preserve (and hopefully improve) the beekeeping prospects for succeeding generations. He is quoted in a great piece from the January 2010 American Bee Journal entitled ‘Keeping Bees That Keep Themselves’ as saying his work bears,_“… a certain moral responsibility to future beekeepers to show that it is not only possible but cheaper to keep bees without chemicals.”_
Otherwise, a great blog posting by our own Juhani Lunden gives a more contemporary glimpse into the life and current work of this great bee scientist (though he will not use this title himself- as described in the article above).

In future posts, I hope to touch on the following topics from the perspective of Dr. Kefuss’ work:

Hygienic Behavior
The Resistance / Tolerance Paradigm
The Multi-Factorial Nature of Resistance
The Mite’s Role in Selection and Maintenance of Host / Parasite Equilibrium
The ‘Bond’ Methods
Selection Principles and Recommendations
Addressing Common Objections Regarding Resistance Breeding


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> In future posts, I hope to touch on the following topics from the perspective of Dr. Kefuss’ work:
> 
> Hygienic Behavior


It is always interesting to me to consider how one’s background impacts their approach to a particular problem. In the case of Dr. Kefuss, determining where to begin a selection program for varroa resistance led him to begin where Dr. Rothenbuhler left off- evaluating both the heritability and suitability of hygienic behavior as a tool to combat mite population growth.

As Spivak and Gilliam observe in part-one of their two-part 1998 _Bee World_ article on Hygienic Behavior, ‘_The first detailed observations of hygienic behaviour of honey bees, Apis mellifera, were recorded in the 1930s during efforts to determine whether resistance to the bacterial disease American foulbrood (AFB) existed in bee colonies. This search was initiated because AFB is the most serious of the brood diseases of honey bees. Considerable research was conducted in the 1960s and 1970s on the role of hygienic behaviour as a mechanism of resistance to AFB. However, with the advent of sulfa drugs and antibiotics that are effective against AFB, research efforts in this area were not sustained.

Beginning in 1964, Rothenbuhler and his students published the now famous six-part series of articles on the behavioural genetics of hygienic behaviour in honey bees.’_

As noted in _Insect Molecular Genetics_, ‘_Rothenbuhler’s research on hygienic behavior became a classic in textbooks on behavioral genetics because it was one of the first examples that demonstrated that behavior is inherited.’_

While it seems that each passing year presents yet another study which expands on the seemingly ever more complex genetic interactions which confer any number of resistance mechanisms upon a colony,

_His elegant experiment remains the textbook example of a behavioural genetic study. Although this model has been challenged, it is still generally agreed that a small number of unlinked genes produce a large effect on hygienic behaviour, that hygienic alleles are recessive and are inherited in a Mendelian manner._

The paper itself, _Behavior Genetics of Nest Cleaning in Honey Bees. IV. Responses of F1 and Backcross Generations to Disease-Killed Brood_ was published in 1964 and has to-date been referenced almost 500 times in other academic literature.

Indeed, it is in this paper that the term ‘hygienic behavior’ is identified as being first utilized in a 1956 Rothenbuhler and Thompson publication entitled, _Resistance to American Foulbrood in Honey Bees. I. Differential Survival of Larvae of Different Genetic Lines_

And in a sign of prescience, _Dr. Rothenbuhler and V. Thompson subsequently showed that although resistance was behavioral in adult worker bees, it was also physiological or inherent in larvae._

This is referring to the 1956 paper above_, _which served as a foundation for a 2003 study entitled, _A substance in honey bee larvae inhibits the growth of Paenibacillus larvae larvae_.

Next we’ll consider how Dr. Kefuss incorporated these principles into his initial selection work- and where hygenic behavior evaluations fit into subsequent iterations of his Bond selection program.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

I spent some time reading about Dr. Kefuss’ methods a few nights ago when you posted this. The whole thing is fascinating.

And yes, our background definitely influences how we approach solving problems. My g-grandfather was walking in the woods with Dad in the 1940s. He pointed to a sandstone cliff face. He said, “Son, you can take a claw hammer and reduce that to dust. If you don’t give up, it will”.

On treatment-free, I think it is how we keep bees that necessitates treatments as much as anything else (I realize this is not my revelation). Perhaps millions of surviving feral hives suggests the bees themselves are adaptable (some more than others). I hope I have the nerve this year to make an out-yard treatment free. I have thought about ways to signal closing an entrance to avoid robbing if a hive is weakened/dying and full of mites, to avoid massive pressure on the robbers. Closing an entrance remotely is doable, but that in itself is another “treatment”.

The mite will not be the end of the honey bee, nor will the next thing. Press on Russ!


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> “Son, you can take a claw hammer and reduce that to dust. If you don’t give up, it will”.


Joe:

Great post- your grandfather's word picture is quite descriptive and conjures in my mind both persistence but also a dogged stubbornness that borders on obstinacy- as my dad would say, _"Its the principle of the thing"_.



joebeewhisperer said:


> Closing an entrance remotely is doable, but that in itself is another “treatment”.


While I think we all have to define for ourselves what our goals and management approaches will be, I have come to appreciate much of the ethos of the TF 'pillars' outlined here on Beesource (Unique Forum Rules).

From this we read that, _Treatments do not include items considered to be manipulations or equipment… _For me, this comports well with Dr. Seeley's studies of feral colonies and the assertion that at least part of their success might be predicated upon chosen nest site- including a single small entrance.

Beyond this, I think Squarepeg's post really captures the spirit of a collaborative approach to this collective problem that I appreciate and identify with:

_"Any post advocating the use of treatments, according to the forum definition of treatment will be considered off topic and shall be moved to another forum or deleted by a moderator, *unless it is employed as part of a plan in becoming treatment free.*"

(emphasis mine)

this allows for the contingency that there may be those who might consider treatments as a stop gap measure to save a colony which has not been able to 'do it on it's own', and prevent the loss of time, money, and a live colony of bees.

tf 'mindset' has been brought up in another thread. to some, this mindset is seen to include being prepared to allow colonies to perish as part of the tf process. i see nothing wrong with this, and i have always felt that all beekeepers should be able to make their own management decisions as they so feel moved to do so, (within the constraints of applicable laws and in a way that doesn't threaten nearby colonies kept by others and/or feral colonies).

what often appears to be the case is that beginning beekeepers have made the decision to go tf without understanding that this may involve losing colonies in what can potentially become a disappointing and expensive process.

it makes perfect sense to me for someone to do whatever is necessary to save a colony in the short term and while attempting to come up with measures that will lead to their bees being able to be kept off treatments, but to the hard core this 'mindset' flys against theirs and they dismiss it.

bottom line: don't be constrained by this or that definition and make your choices based on what it is you feel is appropriate for you, your circumstances, and your goals._


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Next we’ll consider how Dr. Kefuss incorporated these principles into his initial selection work- and where hygenic behavior evaluations fit into subsequent iterations of his Bond selection program.


Dr. Kefuss’ first published research that does not deal with photoperiod is a paper entitled, ‘Honey bee hygienic behavior: France, Tunisia and Chile’ which was published in the journal _Apidologie_ in January 1995.

In it he defines his threshold for bees being defined as ‘hygienic’ and also outlines the scope of his research recording:

_Colonies were considered hygienic when all brood had been removed at 48 h. Most colonies headed by queens from commercial queen breeders had very low hygienic behavior (16%). Unselected populations from Chile were intermediate in response (29%). Those from Tunisia (n = 249) and (n = 36) had very high hygienic behavior at 24 (66%) and 48 h (99%) Nonhygienic A m intermissa colonies were an exception._

We are made aware of the context of this study in his 2019 Apimondia presentation ‘Selecting for Varroa Black Holes’. In this presentation he describes how that in 1994 his Chilean commercial operation had an EFB problem. In response, he elected to pursue a selection program for hygienic behavior in an attempt to improve stock resistance to the disease.

Per Slides 21 and 22 of the presentation we learn that he began his work by choosing the best 115 colonies out of a cohort of 483 colonies (~24%) to test. While it is not explicit on the slides, the 115 colonies were chosen on the basis of productivity as determined by pollen production.

These 115 colonies were then tested for hygienic behavior and the 14 best colonies (~3% of the cohort) were selected for the breeding program based on 100% removal of freeze-killed brood at 24 hours.

By propagating from these queens and continuing the selection process based on hygienic behavior, Dr. Kefuss asserts that the EFB problem was eliminated in approximately two (2) years’ time.

When Dr. Kefuss elected to forego chemical mite treatments in 1999, it is not hard to imagine that his relative success at breeding against EFB might have at least partially inspired his willingness to attempt breeding against varroa- and no doubt informed his method.

While I will leave a more detailed treatment of his varroa resistance selection for a later installment, a few interesting tidbits relative to hygienic behavior emerge.

Specifically, in his seminal ‘Selection for resistance to Varroa destructor under commercial beekeeping conditions’ paper published in June 2016 in the _Journal of Apicultural Research_ he outlines three (3) test criteria as guiding the selection process:

Hygienic behavior
Capped brood mite count
Phoretic mite count
And it is here where I think we see one of the most common misconceptions about the now ubiquitous ‘Bond Test’- and that is the concept that the only selection variable he employed was survival.

To be certain, survival was the ‘acid test’ that all colonies were subjected to, but as he notes:

_As colonies died out, they were replaced by new colonies with daughter queens made from the best survivors by either splitting survivor hives or requeening non-selected mite infested bees from other beekeepers with open-mated daughters from selected survivor queens._

This idea of replacing the losses with the ‘best’ survivors seems often obscured by the ‘Live and Let Die’ mantra. In truth, he conducted a very through selection process which selected first for survival, then for hygienic behavior and then for mite counts.

And certainly, this hygienic selection effort was already well underway before Dr. Kefuss began ‘Bond Testing’. This really comes to light when we read in the discussion of long-term evaluations over the period of 1999 to 2008 that:

_No correlations were found between hygienic behavior and mite infestations either on bees or in the brood._

Dr. Kefuss offers a hypothesis on this observation as follows:

_Hygienic tests were performed to see if this trait would be inﬂuenced during the survival test. That we globally (excepting for comparisons with 2008) did not ﬁnd signiﬁcant changes in hygienic behavior between years is not surprising. Population 1 colonies had high hygienic behavior in 1999 at the start of the test. This might partially explain the high colony survival after 2002 when almost one-third of the colonies survived. After 2002, no more selection for hygienic behavior was made until 2008 when a signiﬁcant reduction in hygienic behavior at 48 h was observed. This indicates that when colonies within a breeding population have been selected for high general hygienic behavior that is controlled by recessive genes (Rothenbuhler, 1964) and selection is stopped, the attained level of hygienic behavior can remain stable over a long period of time. This might explain the results of Locke and Fries (2011) and our ﬁeld test where no correlations between general hygienic behavior and mite infestations were found. Groups containing colonies with both high and low general hygienic behaviors such as those in Danka et al. (2013) would have to be tested to see if they differ in mite infestations._

He summarizes these observations in a Lecture at the 2018 Austrian Treatment Free Beekeeping Conference noting,

_“In 1999 our colonies were more hygienic than in 2008- hygienic behavior plays a role but is not the only thing involved in varroa resistance.”_

I’ll next consider Dr. Kefuss’ contribution to our understanding of both the role and distinctions of ‘Resistance’ versus ‘Tolerance’.


----------



## gww

I always enjoy these post.
Cheers
gww


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Dr. Kefuss’
> 
> Specifically, in his seminal ‘Selection for resistance to Varroa destructor under commercial beekeeping conditions’ paper


I find this paragraph interesting:

...this ﬁeld test, we used only the survival test to select
for mite resistance. Exposures to mite-vectored viruses
are reduced as non-productive and diseased hives are
quickly eliminated from the breeding population...
(Kefuss, Taber, Vanpoucke, & Rey, 2003; Kefuss, Va

This may be a key issue. Mites weaken the hive and spread virus. Virus kills the hive. He doesn't say it clearly, but it sounds like they were purposefully eliminating virus-infected hives. So they may have been selecting for virus resistance alongside mite resistance.

A bit later in the paper he says:

...20–25 colonies were maintained in 20 + api-
aries of the two test populations depending upon the
year. Both groups were in contact with non-selected
hives of other commercial beekeepers with apiaries of
similar or larger sizes sometimes located less than 1 km
away from the test groups...

This makes me wonder how he maintained the genetics he was selecting for, with non-selected drones so close.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> So they may have been selecting for virus resistance alongside mite resistance.


Good questions, AR1. I'll give them my best shot and also invite others to comment as well.

As noted in the 2016 paper:

_Given the problems of virus transmission by mites we suggest that beekeepers should ﬁrst select their colonies for mite resistance to reduce colony mite populations. Then, select for tolerance to the damage caused by the mites and the diseases they vector._

While I will hold on making extended comments regarding the resistance / tolerance paradigm for another post, I expect that Dr. Kefuss would assert that the selection program he executed was explicitly selecting for resistance as represented by a reduction in mite population growth. The relative absence of disease was a secondary benefit brought about by less mite density in the respective colony to vector disease.

That said, he often laments not also explicitly selecting for tolerance in his program and makes passing references something akin to, 'If I had it to do over again, I would run two selection programs: one for low mite population growth and one for survival in the face of high mite loads'. He touches on this idea starting at approximately the 23:25 mark of the interview from the 2018 Austrian Treatment Free Beekeeping Conference.



AR1 said:


> This makes me wonder how he maintained the genetics he was selecting for, with non-selected drones so close.


Dr. Kefuss often speaks about the complementing goals of both maintaining genetic diversity and also exerting influence over the population. His approach might be described by three pillars:

1. A constant winnowing- Year-over-year he propagated from the most resistant queens based on his objective parameters of productivity, hygiene and mite population growth.

2. A distribution of genetics- Consistently spreading the most resistant stock out to all the yards and to neighboring beekeepers.

3. Dominating the DCA's- In the Solomon Parker interview he mentions installing a drone comb in every brood box.

He discusses these concepts starting at approximately the 21:45 mark of the 2019 Apimondia presentation. One interesting aspect of this Q+A is that he mentions he calculated it would take a minimum of 100 colonies to run a genetic program.

Finally, he also touches on these concepts (in concert with a discussion about I/I versus natural mating) starting at approximately 1:20 mark from a video of additional interview questions at the 2018 Austrian Treatment Free Beekeeping Conference.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> I always enjoy these post.
> Cheers
> gww


Thank you for your feedback, GWW. I've missed reading your updates- how are your colonies holding up this winter?


----------



## gww

Russ


> Thank you for your feedback, GWW. I've missed reading your updates- how are your colonies holding up this winter?


I have no ideal. It is too cold to fly mostly and also really muddy. Last time I looked on an about 50 degree day (couple of weeks?), Some hives had a small amount of bees hanging at the entrance (those are probably best) and a few that did not still had a buzz when I put my ear against the hive and tapped. They did not sound really strong in my mind. I have a feeling I am going to have one more problem year and the question is how much problem. It would have been less if I had raised the weight of the hives in oct, I am curious though. Still alive is fine for now.

As a side note, so far, the weather seems to have stayed warmer over all, day and night temps. I do not know what is coming but we have has zero day time temps that were very much below freezing all day and no sub- zero nights. Seems weird this late and still time for change.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Gray Goose

A most interesting comment IMO
"_No correlations were found between hygienic behavior and mite infestations either on bees or in the brood._ "

So bees removing frozen brood in a 48H time frame did not corelate to "mite resistance"

How then can we ascertain for certainty that the "removal" of the mite infested, and die off was not the factor in the breeding program, As in the "bond" practice.

GG


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Good questions, AR1. I'll give them my best shot and also invite others to comment as well.
> 
> As noted in the 2016 paper:
> 
> _Given the problems of virus transmission by mites we suggest that beekeepers should ﬁrst select their colonies for mite resistance to reduce colony mite populations. Then, select for tolerance to the damage caused by the mites and the diseases they vector._
> 
> While I will hold on making extended comments regarding the resistance / tolerance paradigm for another post, I expect that Dr. Kefuss would assert that the selection program he executed was explicitly selecting for resistance as represented by a reduction in mite population growth. The relative absence of disease was a secondary benefit brought about by less mite density in the respective colony to vector disease.
> 
> That said, he often laments not also explicitly selecting for tolerance in his program and makes passing references something akin to, 'If I had it to do over again, I would run two selection programs: one for low mite population growth and one for survival in the face of high mite loads'. He touches on this idea starting at approximately the 23:25 mark of the interview from the 2018 Austrian Treatment Free Beekeeping Conference.


I suspect inadvertent selection for viral resistance.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Still alive is fine for now.


Alive is a good thing- and that keeps them in the running to make it to spring, right?



gww said:


> As a side note, so far, the weather seems to have stayed warmer over all, day and night temps. I do not know what is coming but we have has zero day time temps that were very much below freezing all day and no sub- zero nights. Seems weird this late and still time for change.


Same here- it has been a rather mild and fairly stable winter here. The lowest nighttime temperature thus far has been 18 degrees F and the trends seem to now be heading the other direction.

Always glad to hear from you- how's your guitar playing coming along?


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> How then can we ascertain for certainty that the "removal" of the mite infested, and die off was not the factor in the breeding program, As in the "bond" practice.


Good question, GG. Dr. Kefuss himself surmises that the fact that the colonies were already 'hygienic' at the start of the 'Bond Test' obscured any meaningful analysis of this behavioral element on survival. As noted above:

_Hygienic tests were performed to see if this trait would be inﬂuenced during the survival test. That we globally (excepting for comparisons with 2008) did not ﬁnd signiﬁcant changes in hygienic behavior between years is not surprising. Population 1 colonies had high hygienic behavior in 1999 at the start of the test. This might partially explain the high colony survival after 2002 when almost one-third of the colonies survived. After 2002, no more selection for hygienic behavior was made until 2008 when a signiﬁcant reduction in hygienic behavior at 48 h was observed. This indicates that when colonies within a breeding population have been selected for high general hygienic behavior that is controlled by recessive genes (Rothenbuhler, 1964) and selection is stopped, the attained level of hygienic behavior can remain stable over a long period of time. This might explain the results of Locke and Fries (2011) and our ﬁeld test where no correlations between general hygienic behavior and mite infestations were found. Groups containing colonies with both high and low general hygienic behaviors such as those in Danka et al. (2013) would have to be tested to see if they differ in mite infestations._

This position is not without basis when one considers that the base of Dr. Kefuss' stock are Tunisian Intermissa bees that he imported in 1993 which already had been documented as showing significant hygienic and chewing behavior along with survival in the absence of treatments.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I suspect inadvertent selection for viral resistance.


You might very well be right, AR1. I'll take a deeper dive at the whole resistance / tolerance thing in a subsequent post but I think it safe to say that Dr. Keffus' position is that bees can be 'resistant' to varroa by minimizing their population growth but only 'tolerant' to the diseases they vector- meaning they will still have DWV virus (for example) resident in the colony but members will not express the symptoms of the virus or will express them at lower levels as compared to less tolerant colonies.


----------



## AR1

Selection pressure is unrelenting. Even treated hives often fail from mite/viral pressure. Going back to Keffus's removal of hives showing high viral susceptibility, I think that was key. By preventing drift from highly virally infected hives he improved the survivability of all other hives in the apiary. He wasn't doing 'bond' in the sense of just letting them die; he was selectively killing off the poorest hives and preventing them from infecting the better hives.

That may be why we see 'resistant' bees doing well in one keeper's apiary, and failing when under another's care. If keeper 'A' removes the worst and keeper 'B' either protects, supports and treats the worst or just lets them go on to become mite bombs, keeper 'B' will eventually have huge losses.

Randy Oliver is an example. He monitors his hives and any that are not up to snuff get treated and a new queen. A less motivated keeper wouldn't have the same results, even starting with Randy's bees.


----------



## msl

AR1 said:


> I suspect inadvertent selection for viral resistance.


perhaps, but the viruses weren't so bad then..... and the lowering of mite counts was well documented... less mites, less virus 




AR1 said:


> He wasn't doing 'bond' in the sense of just letting them die; he was selectively killing off the poorest hives and preventing them from infecting the better hives.


Not the impression I got, do you have a source/link for that?


----------



## joebeewhisperer

My apologies if this has been covered ad nauseam, but the mites appear to only (at least all most exclusively) prey on drone brood of Apis Cerana (Asian). This seems to have been one of the reasons the bee is so tolerant to mites. If a large percentage of drones are viralized, then it would seem that only those viruses affecting their reproductivity or something transmissible to the queen would affect the hive greatly. Those with deformed wings would be weeded out automatically as they wouldn't make the mating flight. 

At some point I read that the drone diet, or a process that made the food distinct was what the mites were attracted to. I realize I'm over-simplifying a complex subject, but the thought arose that manipulating this chemical combo or at least understanding it might go a long way toward keeping them out of our worker brood.


----------



## gww

Ar1


> He wasn't doing 'bond' in the sense of just letting them die; he was selectively killing off the poorest hives and preventing them from infecting the better hives.


You sure about this? Are you sure he was not just making queens and adding drone brood frames from his best?

Russ
Guitar? Still the only work I do and so I guess full time study for a slow learner.
Cheers
gww

I cannot remember if it was Dr. Keffus' or another bee keeper that worked with him that kept bad hives around to provide extra pressure.


----------



## AR1

msl said:


> Not the impression I got, do you have a source/link for that?


No, not positive about that. I quoted from his paper:

...Exposures to mite-vectored viruses
are reduced as non-productive and diseased hives are
quickly eliminated from the breeding population...
(Kefuss, Taber, Vanpoucke, & Rey, 2003; Kefuss, Va 

His use of the passive voice makes it difficult to know if he did it actively or if he simply let them die. When he said 'non-productive' hives are removed from the breeding population, that suggests he removed them, since non-productive hives will still contribute drones even if he isn't using those queens. I may simply be reading too much into an unclear paragraph.


----------



## msl

opening line of the paper


> A survival field test was initiated in 1999 to observe the effects of no treatment against Varroa destructor on European honey bee colony survival.


they died, or were requeened

as Russ notes.. there sadly is a bit of tomfoolery with jon's writing... yep, this wasn't "normal" production bees like every one else had... this was something crafted by a master casting his net far and wide across oceans to reel in genetics, much in the same way brother adam did
and it didn't last....


> In 1998 he stopped all treatments and was prepared for 90% losses. He only got 60%. After that it is all history written by many others. Together with Ritter they launched Bond and Soft Bond beekeeping systems.
> Today the situation has changed. John said he tries to keep about 50 hives. They are all treatment free, but his son has used Apivar for the last two years. The losses were too much for him. Cyril had to buy a lot of non-selected nucs after many of his hives were killed by pesticides.











2018 – naturebees


8 posts published by villitjavapaat in the year 2018




naturebees.wordpress.com




ahhh "pesticides" the big killer of TF bees ... Michael bush and Solomon Parker both hit hard in last year or so.. locally I saw a TF operation take 90% loses.. over 100 hives do to a "pesticide" kill in march... you know, march in CO....when there is snow on the ground... not sure what bug or plant was being spraying for by spraying the snow.....(side bar, when I was TF... I took my losses in march when they failed to make the turn )

Cyril Kefuss took over the bulk of the stock in 2010 for honey production(see McNeil (2010) ABJ) ... right when the data set for the 2016 paper stops ....
2012 he takes 70% loses and we see the state of the Kefuss TF commercial operation




click CC, then settings, Auto translate, english
if you check in on his FB page he was down to 103 hives by 2016 (when the paper was published) and 2017 was worce Cyril Kefuss

We often seen TF fails when moved, in this case it faild with a change in management. and that is far from unprecedented.... We often loss of very good lines happens often with the loss of their keeper.. what is sad is this paper was published AFTER the crash, and makes no mention of it. No one mentions (or knows) that the "In 2013, 519 non-treated colonies from both groups were being used for commercial beekeeping" are down to 50 its. interesting that john gives the date of 2013 when we know there was a very large crash in 2012 that wasn't recovered from till treatments were started

John is a master, no doubt
If he can't pass on TF to his son using the same stock and in the same location what chance do the rest of us have?
Side note, my Sam Comfort TF queen (VP VSH based) hive is dead... despite treatments!! that yard saw 75% loses do to the yard next to it not treating... %100 survival so far in the 4 out yards the mite bombs cause VSH stocks to remove too many winter bees...
If I can't buy TF stock, treat it...and keep it alive ... where are we?

We are in a pandemic, and ts getting worse, what worked 20 years ago dosent now


----------



## gww

Seeley has posted that problem hives need to be euthanized.
Randy oliver did make the comment that (paraphrased by me) you could dump mites in a keffus hive and the mites would just disappear into a black hole.

So something there but apparently a pretty hard horse to ride.
Cheers
gww


----------



## crofter

gww, is that a recent comment by Randy? It seems common that instances of high mite tolerance are dependent on a delicate balance of conditions, many of which may be unknown and not very transportable. Kefus certainly put a lot of time and effort into it.


----------



## gww

Frank
Just something rattling around in my memory. I am not sure of the time line but would probably say with in the last two years in a comment on the bee L site.
Cheers
gww


----------



## AR1

Wonder what's up with Randy Oliver recently. He appears to have a pretty good breeding program going. I would love to see what happens in years 2-3 in a yard of his bees that was simply left to hard bond. I'd predict high losses but lower than non-selected bees, but who knows? If he has done that I don't recall reading about it.

With all his experimenting with oxalic acid, clearly he doesn't think breeding alone has solved the problem yet. Has he provided bees to anyone else to work with?


----------



## crofter

AR1 said:


> Wonder what's up with Randy Oliver recently. He appears to have a pretty good breeding program going. I would love to see what happens in years 2-3 in a yard of his bees that was simply left to hard bond. I'd predict high losses but lower than non-selected bees, but who knows? If he has done that I don't recall reading about it.
> 
> With all his experimenting with oxalic acid, clearly he doesn't think breeding alone has solved the problem yet. Has he provided bees to anyone else to work with?


 He does not do hard bond though does he? I am sure I have heard him expound on doing frequent mite washes and pulling colonies out of the experiment which are showing high numbers and treating them.


----------



## squarepeg

tpope sent me this:






randy updates on his breeding program and other topics as well.


----------



## AR1

squarepeg said:


> tpope sent me this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> randy updates on his breeding program and other topics as well.


Added some clarity. So he has gone from 2% of colonies with zero or almost zero mite counts in June to about 10%. Some colonies can maintain that even in yards with mite bombs. Sadly, he says that the f1 daughters mostly do not show equivalent resistance.

He did answer one question I had. He sells a lot of nucs, so any beneficial genetics are getting out into the broader population.


----------



## William Bagwell

About an hour into it so far. Thanks squarepeg and tpope!


----------



## Litsinger

*John Kefuss*

Transferability of the ‘Bond’ Method



AR1 said:


> Selection pressure is unrelenting.


AR1: From my very humble perspective, I would suggest that this ethos is at the heart of Dr. Kefuss’ work. If I were asked to describe the ‘Bond’ Method in three words or less, I would respond with, ‘Unrelenting Guided Selection’.



msl said:


> If he can't pass on TF to his son using the same stock and in the same location what chance do the rest of us have?


MSL: I do appreciate your response, and I hope to give further treatment to the current state of Dr. Kefuss’ commercial operation in a further post.

If Dr. Kefuss could be accused of anything, I would suggest it would be presuming too much about the background and approach of his audience, with possibly a bit of good-natured goading mixed in.

In short, when he talks about the ‘Bond’ Method being less work in the long run, he is coming from the perspective of a commercial beekeeper who requeens their entire operation every year and is already conducting routine mite-washes as a function of their routine business practice. From this perspective, the ability to forego the added time and expense to provide chemical treatment is indeed easier and more economical.

However, it seems this message is often obfuscated with the idea that the ‘Bond’ Method represents nothing more than hiving random genetics and conducting walk-away splits from anything that survives.

I appreciate the sentiments of Peter Brezny, who asked Dr. Kefuss, _“What is the message you want to get out to the greater beekeeping community”_? He quotes Dr. Kefuss replying, _“There is a genetic solution to the varroa mite problem- don’t give up.”_



crofter said:


> It seems common that instances of high mite tolerance are dependent on a delicate balance of conditions, many of which may be unknown and not very transportable. Kefus certainly put a lot of time and effort into it.


Frank: In personal communication with Dr. Kefuss, I have found that he is very non-pretentious and honest about his claims. When I asked him about critiques that the ‘Bond’ Method may not be translatable to other locales or management approaches and that it might not be sustainable over the long-haul, he responded to the effect that, ‘you’ll never know until you try.’ And while I have but limited experience in the treatment-free realm, I do not read of many examples of beekeepers who have executed a program as detailed, rigorous, or disciplined as that which Dr. Kefuss describes. Thus, I am left to conclude that at least a fair percentage of his success was as a direct result of the judicious management and intelligent selection he undertook.



AR1 said:


> Randy Oliver is an example. He monitors his hives and any that are not up to snuff get treated and a new queen. A less motivated keeper wouldn't have the same results, even starting with Randy's bees.


AR1: Good point. One thing I was struck by as I read about Dr. Kefuss’ work is that he has an indomitable work ethic and the rare gift of also being an excellent queen producer by any objective measure. Even in retirement he is producing 2,000 queens for sale each year. So the secret to the ‘Bond’ Method appears to be something akin to Thomas Edison’s maxim that, _‘Genius is one per cent inspiration, ninety-nine per cent perspiration.’_

Maintaining Mite Pressure



gww said:


> I cannot remember if it was Dr. Keffus' or another bee keeper that worked with him that kept bad hives around to provide extra pressure.


GWW: You are exactly right. At about the 23-minute mark of the 2018 Austrian Treatment Free Beekeeping interview, he discusses this idea in detail, along with the humorous anecdote of running advertisements in the French bee journals to buy mites.

While I will plan on discussing it in more detail in a subsequent post, it is safe to say that Dr. Kefuss holds as a primary axiom of resistance selection the principle he attributes to his mentor Dr. Rothenbuhler- _‘If you are selecting for disease resistance, you must have the disease.’_


----------



## Litsinger

*Randy Oliver*

Resistance Breeding Approach



AR1 said:


> With all his experimenting with oxalic acid, clearly he doesn't think breeding alone has solved the problem yet.





crofter said:


> He does not do hard bond though does he? I am sure I have heard him expound on doing frequent mite washes and pulling colonies out of the experiment which are showing high numbers and treating them.


Randy Oliver evokes Dr. Kefuss’ work as the foundation for his resistance breeding approach which might be described as a reductionist version of Dr. Kefuss’ ‘Soft Bond’ Method in his article, _The Varroa Problem Part 6a: Bee Breeding For Dummies_.

From the paper: _‘Kefuss has a practical recommendation—the “Soft Bond” test. This involves positive (as opposed to only negative) selection. In the Soft Bond you positively select for indicators of mite resistance (and only from your more desirable colonies). Only the few that meet both goals are then not treated to control mites. Depending upon how your measure for resistance, the Soft Bond can also incorporate tedious testing (such as for VSH), but you don’t need to sacrifice any colonies.

Practical application: you don’t need to understand how the bees do it, only that they do it (you can later leave it to the scientists to figure it out). What I suggest is not to tell the bees how to do the job, but rather to simply give them the job description, and fire all those that aren’t up to snuff.'_

Quoting from _Selection for resistance to Varroa destructor under commercial beekeeping conditions_:

_‘There is a criticism of selecting “blindly” for resistance, i.e., by using an approach that simply targets low mite infestations. This has already, however, been documented to be a viable breeding approach that has led to honey bees that now are used by both small-scale and commercial beekeepers with no or minimal acaricide input…we suggest that beekeepers should ﬁrst select their colonies for mite resistance to reduce colony mite populations. Then, select for tolerance to the damage caused by the mites and the diseases they vector.’_

Latest Update



William Bagwell said:


> Thanks squarepeg and tpope!





squarepeg said:


> tpope sent me this:


Agreed- thank you both for sharing the video!



AR1 said:


> Added some clarity. So he has gone from 2% of colonies with zero or almost zero mite counts in June to about 10%. Some colonies can maintain that even in yards with mite bombs. Sadly, he says that the f1 daughters mostly do not show equivalent resistance.


Ultimately, it would appear that the most significant departure of Mr. Oliver’s breeding program versus that of Dr. Kefuss’ ‘Soft Bond’ Method is no explicit measure for hygienic behavior. I did note that Randy briefly mentioned anecdotally that honey bee populations are generally more hygienic now but it does not sound like he is measuring for this trait in his selection efforts.



joebeewhisperer said:


> At some point I read that the drone diet, or a process that made the food distinct was what the mites were attracted to. I realize I'm over-simplifying a complex subject, but the thought arose that manipulating this chemical combo or at least understanding it might go a long way toward keeping them out of our worker brood.


Joe: Interesting you mention this. At about the 48-minute mark of the above video, Randy describes research of Norwegian bee larvae downregulating proteins necessary for varroa oviposition. I was unable to find the paper he was referring to, but it sounds like this larval contribution is increasingly becoming an area for study in the general area of SMR.

Mite Black Holes



gww said:


> Randy oliver did make the comment that (paraphrased by me) you could dump mites in a keffus hive and the mites would just disappear into a black hole.





crofter said:


> …is that a recent comment by Randy?





gww said:


> Just something rattling around in my memory. I am not sure of the time line but would probably say with in the last two years in a comment on the bee L site.


GWW: You have a memory like an elephant! I am impressed:

LISTSERV - BEE-L Archives - COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM


----------



## gww

Russ


> GWW: You have a memory like an elephant! I am impressed:


Now that is funny!
Cheers
gww


----------



## joebeewhisperer

If this has been posted before please excuse the redundancy. I found this YouTube which is a copy of a podcast on the "mite black holes".


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> GWW: You have a memory like an elephant! I am impressed:
> 
> LISTSERV - BEE-L Archives - COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM


Don't shoot him and leave him wounded!


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Don't shoot him and leave him wounded!


That's hilarious!


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> … I will hold on making extended comments regarding the resistance / tolerance paradigm for another post…


While he cannot get all the credit, I think it is safe to say that Dr. Kefuss has done as much as anyone to help bring clarity and consistency to the two main described categories of genetic selection against the varroa mite- namely the terms ‘Resistance’ and ‘Tolerance’.

As Dr. Kefuss explains in his 2019 Apimondia presentation _Selecting for Varroa Black Holes_, it is now generally understood and accepted in most genetic research efforts that:

Resistance defines the,_ Ability of a host to limit parasite burden. _(In other words, it is a representation of a colony’s ability to check mite population growth).

Tolerance on the other hand defines the,_ Ability of a host to limit the damage caused by a given parasite burden. _(This it is represented by the relative lack of disease prevalence in the colony irrespective of mite population).

What is really interesting is to see the development of this terminology from the beginning of Dr. Kefuss’ work until now.

In a similar presentation that Dr. Kefuss gave at the 2009 Apimondia entitled, _Practical Varroa Resistance Selection for Beekeepers_ he spoke in terms of ‘Receptivity’ versus ‘Sensibility’:

Receptivity the,_- Ability to permit the presence of a parasite and its normal life cycle development. Resistant bees are not receptive to varroa._

Sensibility the, _- Ability to exhibit the symptoms of a parasitic infestation. A tolerant animal is parasitized but not hindered._

And these ideas came from his work with the Intermissa bees published in 2004:

_The term “resistance” usually means that an organism cannot be infested at all. Resistance is the capacity not to permit the normal development of a parasite. It is the lower level of receptivity. Receptivity is the possibility of an animal to permit the presence of a parasite and the normal development of its life cycle. An animal resistant to a parasite “refuses” the parasite (zero receptivity). A honey bee resistant to varroa does not permit varroa to parasitize it. Tolerance is the capacity not to develop clinical symptoms when a parasite develops on or in an animal. It is the lower level of sensibility. Sensibility is the ability of an animal to exhibit the symptoms of a parasitic infestation. A tolerant animal is parasitized but not hindered by the parasite (zero sensibility). Thus, a honey bee that is varroa tolerant has parasites, but is not bothered by them. Susceptible animals have both receptivity and high sensibility to parasites._

It appears that our now collective understanding of these twin concepts of ‘Resistance’ and ‘Tolerance’ have their genesis in a 2009 paper entitled, _Decomposing health: tolerance and resistance to parasites in animals _which Dr. Kefuss and Dr. Spivak reference in their 2013 article, _Comments on: “Varroa destructor: research avenues towards sustainable control”_:

_Resistance is usually defined as the ability of an organism to limit parasite burden, while tolerance is the ability of an organism to limit the harm caused by a given burden (see Råberg et al., 2009). Resistance thus is the preferred term to describe honey bees that keep V. destructor infestation at relatively low levels._

Why does any of this matter? As Dr, Kefuss notes in his, _Selection for resistance to Varroa destructor under commercial beekeeping conditions_,

_Precise deﬁnitions make it easier to focus on a problem. At the present time, semantic confusion exists among bee scientists whenever the terms resistance and tolerance are utilized. According to Schneider and Ayres (2008), resistance and tolerance are two separate major pathways for survival to infestations. Raberg, Graham, and Read (2009) deﬁne resistance as “the ability of a host to limit parasite burden” and tolerance as the ability of a host “to limit the damage caused by a given parasite burden”. They state that the advantage of their deﬁnitions is that resistance and tolerance can be considered both independently and in parallel. Accepting their deﬁnitions for resistance and tolerance, mite populations should decrease as bees become more resistant and would be expected to remain at the same level or even increase if tolerant. Hence, according to these deﬁnitions what many bee researchers are describing as tolerance should actually be considered as resistance.

Tolerance mechanisms that prevent or repair damage may offer individuals wider generic (group) protection when they are exposed to a variety of diseases and may be good candidates for genetic improvement in the immune system._

And this is likely a good segue into a brief treatment of Dr. Kefuss’ considerations of the:



Litsinger said:


> The Multi-Factorial Nature of Resistance


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> At the present time, semantic confusion exists among bee scientists whenever the terms resistance and tolerance are utilized


Kinda like pain tolerance and pain threshold, two very different things but commonly used interchangeably. We have a lot of words, but I’m amazed sometimes at how poorly I communicate, ... not to mention the rest of you jokers.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> ... not to mention the rest of you jokers.


Hey! I resemble that remark...  In all seriousness I appreciate your feedback, and good analogy.

I suppose we are finally in for an extended cold snap (at least cold as we define it here in the Mid-South). 🥶


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> I suppose we are finally in for an extended cold snap (at least cold as we define it here in the Mid-South)


Yes, I've totally turned wimp in my old age. I see these guys/gals talking about crazy low temps for months, ..... not for me, bees or no bees. I saw 7-9F for lows next weekend here and that's now been raised to 20-21F. Grateful. My wife and I are off with covid and while it has not been pleasant, it should be 53F on Wed. In other words, a BEE DAY!!!! Take care Russ,
j


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> My wife and I are off with covid and while it has not been pleasant, it should be 53F on Wed. In other words, a BEE DAY!!!! Take care Russ,


Joe:

I am sincerely sorry to hear you and your wife are dealing with COVID- it sounds like you all have managed alright, though?

The forecast here is still showing low teens for next weekend, so I hope some of your warm vibes come up this way. As of now, tomorrow is forecast as the warmest day of the week for us but not warm enough for flight.

I've decided that overwintering in this region is a lot like running wind sprints- colonies exerting significant effort in short bursts followed by longer periods of lower intensity where they can catch their breath for the next run.

I'll be in prayer that you and your bride get over your illness quickly.


----------



## gww

russ quote


> I'll be in prayer that you and your bride get over your illness quickly.


Me too.
Cheers
gww


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Thanks Ya’ll,

We no longer have fever so it’s downhill. My wife had bronchitis just before covid so she’s had a tougher time with coughing. We will be fine by week’s end.

I had a couple of family members hospitalized for conditions worse than an “average” case of covid last week. Not being able to see them is the worst part of this. But the nurses and med pros keep everyone updated. They have shifted into a new way of doing things and haven’t lost a beat on care, so major kudos to first line folks.

Thanks for prayers and concern. God has always taken care of us.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> The forecast here is still showing low teens for next weekend, so I hope some of your warm vibes come up this way. As of now, tomorrow is forecast as the warmest day of the week for us but not warm enough for flight












Still think it will be tomorrow. Three inches of snow yesterday and 25F currently (7:30am). It might make 50F tomorrow. I hope your situation warms up as well.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Thanks for prayers and concern. God has always taken care of us.


Joe:

Thank you for the update, and I am glad to hear that you all are on the mend. Your response reminds me of a song!

Having now had some friends and acquaintances hospitalized for COVID, I am reminded afresh that it is a blessing to have good health.

I like the look of your Lyson poly hives- have you run into any problems with ants?


----------



## AR1

joebeewhisperer said:


> Thanks Ya’ll,
> 
> We no longer have fever so it’s downhill. My wife had bronchitis just before covid so she’s had a tougher time with coughing. We will be fine by week’s end.
> 
> I had a couple of family members hospitalized for conditions worse than an “average” case of covid last week. Not being able to see them is the worst part of this. But the nurses and med pros keep everyone updated. They have shifted into a new way of doing things and haven’t lost a beat on care, so major kudos to first line folks.
> 
> Thanks for prayers and concern. God has always taken care of us.


Take care. I've been dealing with covid patients since March. The thing to watch out for is the sudden turn for the worse. If you suddenly find it hard to get your breath, so that even walking to the bathroom is difficult, it's time to call the EMS, maybe a bit before that point! Sounds like you have gotten past that stage, so hopes for the best.
Most covid care in the hospital is supportive. Extra O2. We also give blood thinners, vitamins C and D, and zinc. In other words, stuff you can buy yourself, or get your doc to prescribe. Aspirin is a good blood thinner. Ask your doc about taking it.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> I like the look of your Lyson poly hives- have you run into any problems with ants?


No ant issues but I’ll keep an eye out. A few of the EZ Nucs I took these out of would develop ant colonies under them, kinda mooching sugar from the top feeders. Having them sitting on a timber creates a crack to hide. 


AR1 said:


> Extra O2. We also give blood thinners, vitamins C and D, and zinc. In other words, stuff you can buy yourself,


Thanks. I’ll pay more attention to O2. We bought a decent spO2 fingertip sensor. If I’m on my feet it’s running 95, bit less if lying around.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Take care. I've been dealing with covid patients since March.


AR1:

I appreciate your helpful advice and your efforts serving on the front-lines of this pandemic. Thank you.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> No ant issues but I’ll keep an eye out.


Do keep us posted if you don't mind- at least around here, the ants love tunneling through the Styrofoam insulation I have employed above the inner cover and observing this has caused me to dismiss the prospects of the polystyrene hives around here- maybe prematurely.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> I have employed above the inner cover and observing this has caused me to dismiss the prospects of the polystyrene hives around here- maybe prematurely


I’ll do that. These are considerably harder than blue board or styrofoam cooler material. It’s really an odd consistency. Don’t know that I’ve owned anything exactly like it. Probably just as susceptible to a determined ant, but we will see.


----------



## AR1

joebeewhisperer said:


> Thanks. I’ll pay more attention to O2. We bought a decent spO2 fingertip sensor. If I’m on my feet it’s running 95, bit less if lying around.


Standard in the hospital is you get O2 if you are holding under 91%. If you start seeing O2 creeping down, it's time to come in and get checked out.


----------



## AR1

joebeewhisperer said:


> View attachment 62029
> 
> 
> Still think it will be tomorrow. Three inches of snow yesterday and 25F currently (7:30am). It might make 50F tomorrow. I hope your situation warms up as well.


My wife keeps talking up moving somewhere warmer. She is quite sensitive to weather (complains if it is hot or cold) where I don't much mind either way. I would like to live somewhere with a longer growing season though. I think if we moved south the heat would bother her, so except for Hawaii I don't see much hope!


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> ...so except for Hawaii I don't see much hope!


You can always move to Western Kentucky- 9 month growing season, typically less than two weeks of daytime highs below freezing, a month of highs in the 90s and an average of 4 inches of rain a month- you can grow about anything you want from short season crops to tropicals if you're willing to start them early or bring them in for a couple months.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Yep. What Russ said. He gave a near perfect description of where we live. We are 4-5F cooler year-round than the surrounding valleys (elevation 2K’), but still very similar to what he describes a couple hundred miles north. Cost of living and property here are both still very reasonable. Pack up and come on down. Probably see a “zero spell” about every 10-12 years. It was -18F for 3 days here,.... in 1983!


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## AR1

Sounds perfect for me. I have been advocating for Kentucky or Tenn. The wife is less convinced.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I have been advocating for Kentucky or Tenn.


They're relatively the same- we both say 'ya'll' but here in Kentucky we 'take' folks places- in Tennesee they 'carry' them.

And they have professional sports- while we have the Kentucky Wildcats which is as much a way of life as it is a college basketball team.


----------



## AR1

Rats escaping the sinking SS Illinois. It's sad what has happened to my state. And I fear that my fellow Illinoisans are doing to our neighbors what California is famous for doing to its neighbors, exporting the rot.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> It's sad what has happened to my state.


I hear this same sentiment from a lot of the 'down state' folks I work with in Southern Illinois. To be certain, it is Chicago versus almost everywhere else in the state.


----------



## Litsinger

An interesting and important study is out in the January _Nature Chemical Biology_ journal.

Entitled, '_Chemical detection triggers honey bee defense against a destructive parasitic threat'_ the study:

_'… provide a comprehensive description of all steps of a mechanism of parasite detection that triggers a behavioral defense known to confer social immunity and associated resistance in the host.'_

Using brain scan recordings of individual worker bees belonging to both VSH (varroa sensitive hygiene) and NVS (non-varroa sensitive) cohorts:

_'The present study achieves three important goals: (1) six naturally occurring chemical cues that trigger VSH behavior are identified, (2) we demonstrate that synthetic combinations of the compounds identified can be used to evaluate the level of VSH behavior in field colonies and (3) insight is provided into why some, but not all, worker bees perform VSH behavior.'_

The study concluded that the six (6) chemical compounds were unique to cells where successful reproduction occurred, meaning VSH bees were able to identify by chemical signature which cells contained viable mite offspring:

_'Six Varroa-parasitization-specific (VPS) compounds are identified that (1) trigger Varroa-sensitive hygiene (VSH, bees’ key defense against Varroa sp.), (2) enable the selective recognition of a parasitized brood and (3) induce responses that mimic intrinsic VSH activity in bee colonies. We also show that individuals engaged in VSH exhibit a unique ability to discriminate VPS compounds from healthy brood signals.'_

And furthermore:

_'… a strong link _[was]_ … made between the quantity of the six VPS compounds and the number of mites present in each brood cell.'_

Finally, they observed that both VSH and NVS bees can successfully detect the VPS compounds but only VSH bees can differentiate them in order to initiate the process of uncapping the cell:

_'Recordings of the summed activity of antennal olfactory sensilla (electroantennograms (EAGs)) were used to determine whether or not bees could detect the VPS compounds. … responses to VPS compounds in VSH and NVS bees are similar, suggesting that both VSH bees and NVS bees are able to perceive the VPS compounds.

These results indicate that VSH bees can differentiate VPS odors from healthy brood odors, whereas NVS bees cannot; NVS bees behaved in this learning assay as though the two odorant cues they were detecting (CS+ and CS−) were identical.'_

As an aside, they parenthetically speculate:

_'Early detection of an infested brood that cannot be linked to the presence of mite offspring may be due to viral infection of the brood, an indirect effect of mite infestation.'_


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Sounds perfect for me. I have been advocating for Kentucky or Tenn. The wife is less convinced.


Chiggers.
I hate chiggers.
I will take winter over the chiggers every time.
Took us a month to recover from the chiggers after our vacation in the Great Smokies area.
I still have red spots on my feet, years later.
Heck, I will take a mosquito every time.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Chiggers.


You're right, GregV. I am afraid I can't gloss that one over...


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> You're right, GregV. I am afraid I can't gloss that one over...


I could not believe I could walk barefoot on lawn and NOT worry of the chiggers after we moved up North.
This was impossible in KS/MO.
Fishing was impossible too.
I must have been missing some secret about the Sourthen living all those years.
Oh well, too late now.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Oh well, too late now.


Never too late to come back down to God's Country .

In all seriousness, I haven't found a region of our great Republic that doesn't have some really great features along with more than a few downsides- so kind of like beekeeping, what is best depends quite a bit upon what one's goals and interests are.

Thus, for me- I'll trade chiggers for brutal cold...


----------



## joebeewhisperer

At 55, I’ve had 6-8 bouts with chiggers or seed ticks,.... lifetime. Unpleasant yes, but not enough to force into a glacier.


----------



## Litsinger

A quick apiary update- Currently standing at 23 colonies out of 27 that came into Fall. There were two early dead-outs at the first onset of cold weather and then two more in late December when we had our first nighttime lows below 20 degrees F.

You all in colder climes will laugh, but we just came through a record-breaking streak of 9 days where the daytime high did not rise above 30 and nighttime lows were in the single-digits- so it was a good test for overwintering in our area.

A few of the colonies made quite a mess of the exterior of their hive once afforded the opportunity for a cleansing flight and it reminded me afresh that it has to be a lot easier to overwinter bees down here than in points farther North where one has to contend with extended confinement.

The most curious outcome from the cold stretch was Colony #1910- following their initial cleansing efforts, there were several clumps of bees from the colony that clustered on an adjacent post- I could only surmise that in their haste to evacuate they failed to orient to the entrance and then could not quite find their way home. After about 48 hours of clustering the bees either flew off or begged their way into a colony.

Another random bit of speculation- while I haven't any real hard data to back it up, I do have a hunch that at least part of the relative success of winter survival the last few years relates to the longevity of the bees themselves. Last year I noted what appeared to be overwintered 'Summer' bees doing early season foraging. And this year when looking at the representative dead bees being hauled out by individual colonies one can observe a distinct anatomical difference between the dead comprising what looks to be about 3 'Summer' bees for every 1 'Winter' bee. If I ever get my act together I will make a point to mark a good number of bees before 'Winter' bee rearing gets going in earnest and see if this hypothesis has any merit.

Hopefully the maples and elms will start blooming soon- definitely within the next two weeks.


----------



## gww

Sounds pretty good to me. Keep the reports coming and good luck.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Gray Goose

Russ
right
"You all in colder climes will laugh, but we just came through a record-breaking streak of 9 days where the daytime high did not rise above 30 and nighttime lows were in the single-digits- so it was a good test for overwintering in our area. "

so here the week was daytime in the 4 to 10 range and night time -18 to -5 
was a cold snap no doubt, IMO bees can do a week then they gota move up 3or 4 cells to new food. 2-5 days tolerable 7 to 15 days you will be loosing some bees.

keep up the good reports.

So on the "summer bees" was it the tan lines that gave it away? or the ear muffs on the winter bees? just curious.

GG


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Currently standing at 23 colonies out of 27 that came into Fall.


And here you go, why not be TF.
It seems to be working for you.
With the bolded footnote - *in your particular location.*

I will be lucky to have 3/15 this year.

I think I will broadcast my #s over my local forum - the 5-year TF "study".
This is to discourage any new beeks in the vicinity to be going "TF" with their brand new almond bee packages and all natural top bar hives and shiny new tools.
They do more damage then they do good.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> So on the "summer bees" was it the tan lines that gave it away? or the ear muffs on the winter bees? just curious.


 That's funny, GG. I hope all is well in your operation and I'll look forward to reading the next installment of the 'bee wall'.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> ...in your particular location.


 As they say, beekeeping (like politics) is all local. I do sincerely hope you come through winter with some solid stock to build from.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> The Multi-Factorial Nature of Resistance


In his 2016 _‘Selection for resistance to Varroa destructor under commercial beekeeping conditions’_ paper, Dr. Kefuss makes reference to a 2010 Rinderer, Harris, Hunt, and de Guzman paper to underscore that at the first junction, resistance mechanisms are classiﬁed as either behavioral or physiological:

‘_Behavioral mechanisms included hygienic behavior, grooming behavior, and removal of mites from the hive. Physiological mechanisms involved phoresy and brood characteristics such as attractiveness to mites.’_

He then notes that while many such mechanisms have been studied, there may be many others that are unknown or poorly understood at this juncture. He writes:

_‘We are in agreement with Locke and Fries (2011) and Locke, Le Conte, Crauser, and Fries (2012) who concluded that factors such as reduced mite reproduction opportunities (delayed mite egg laying) and suppression of mite reproduction success (high mite infertility) probably play a major role in limiting mite populations. This does not however exclude other unknown factors that might be less, equally, or even more important for colony survival.’_

It is certainly clear that as additional research has been conducted in the succeeding years, we have collectively learned more about the various mechanisms being employed by honey bees on a global scale in response to varroa. Mondet et al’s 2020 _‘Honey bee survival mechanisms against the parasite Varroa destructor: a systematic review of phenotypic and genomic research efforts’ _gives a good summary of the current body of knowledge on the subject, succinctly captured in the attached _‘Honey Bee Survival Mechanisms’ _figure.

Dr. Kefuss also observed that initial evaluations of a particular survival metric may be misleading- and that only by observing the results in context with other factors can one make a qualitive assessment of the data. He records:

_‘It is clear that mechanisms of resistance and tolerance (whatever they are) may require years to be expressed before they can be utilized for selection. Chemical mite control masks and destroys natural selection for these mechanisms. Short-term experiments lasting only a few months can lead to erroneous conclusions. This is well illustrated in the 1993–2004 A.m. intermissa survival experiment where clear differences were observed only after 12 months of testing.’_

He is referring to initial mite load data recorded from the intermissa colonies which would have suggested in isolation that the colonies were headed for eminent collapse- but after further observation it was concluded that these colonies were in-fact ‘_Varroa Black Holes’_™.

Finally, Dr. Kefuss recognized that in light of the fact that the survival mechanisms were poorly-understood, it is good in principle to allow surviving colonies contribute to the gene pool of the population. In the 2010 _‘Keeping Bees That Keep Themselves’ _he is quoted observing:

_‘What is important is that all races can be selected for better tolerance to Varroa. What we are trying to do is develop bees with as many different types of alleles as possible because there are many types of resistance.’_

And to his credit, it seems that this concept serves as the cornerstone of Mr. Randy Oliver’s resistance breeding program. As he records in his article _‘The Varroa Problem Part 6a: Bee Breeding For Dummies’_:

_‘Practical application: you don’t need to understand how the bees do it, only that they do it (you can later leave it to the scientists to figure it out). What I suggest is not to tell the bees how to do the job, but rather to simply give them the job description, and fire all those that aren’t up to snuff.’_


----------



## gww

Russ
I still wonder at msl's declaration That kefuss replaced all his queens in all his hives using his best. I am not declaring this declaration as not true cause I don't know. I do not get this from Dr kefuss's professed thinking pattern. I get more that any increase made was with the best but every hive that was still alive was not re-queened. Also that he put drone comb in these worse hives just as he did with his best to promote all having a chance of staying around. I might just be stupid headed but still had these thoughts after msl post but also recognize that I have not been as deep in study of other treatment free keepers as msl and work more from bits and pieces that form in my mind and could be very wrong.
Just a thought.
Cheers
gww


----------



## msl

gww said:


> still wonder at msl's declaration That kefuss replaced all his queens in all his hives using his best.


depends on the year, the program, and the continent 😉


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2016.1160709


Paragraph 4 under "genetic material"


> Genetic material was exchanged back and forth between these two independent test populations on an irregular basis by requeening with queen cells and virgin queens from the best 1–5 colonies in each group throughout the field test.


You have to remember he was a queen breeder and a honey producer, regular requeening has been standard management for well over 100 year


also


https://www.apimondia.com/en/component/easyfolderlistingpro/?view=download&format=raw&data=eNpFUMtOwzAQ_BXL54bELZR2c0sRquBIxbUyySax6tiW1ymtEP-O8xJcJ-_O7syOR4IQ8EOwBV5bXaHnOYHYAa9sSWlpTeORKF1nYj9OBPCe0E-7NELAs2XU9EjhX-cZ-Pk8YkO3m6hGdji0GfDh2U6oqniuIJtIHrWToR1Vs1wn4OmGJaxQVtvmnh68JUoOfQjKNOzj3jlLqu-W-YodUerQrtgJy9bM2AteUVvXoQlR6uRRhqFOXj1cIisQL4guys02a6Vxsfm4AV7ErWq4VlvPPqX3VrJCy_LCjlYjRcW3B_aOdU9jXCKRgbcwV66q5yjw5lQMc_mniAHIEGTZDk54_gVcIqL7yPB4Vfg9RRjjMTKoa_Ty-wdFFYqf



see page 50..



> 1. Re-queen a maximum number of hives with daughters from your best queens
> 2. Utilize as many different breeder queens as possible to minimize inbreeding
> 3. Put their daughters in all bee yards to produce selected drones for future matings
> 4. Exchange genetic material with other beekeepers in case you loose a breeder line.


----------



## gww

mls
I see both things he wrote. One is philosophical and one is mechanical. I see the mechanical but am left with utilize as many different breeder queens and Re-queen a maximum number of hives with daughters from your best queens, both which give an outline but not actual act. Then I think of the philosophical and think what would the above actually mean to the guy who thinks that way. Then add in use as many breeders as possible. Then exchange genetic material. The question come up that is this correlation working or taking things from only things under you control. Seem if taking only from your own control, you would not be widening the gene pool but actually reducing it after just a very few generations if using a small portion for the whole yard every time.

I do see that action of picking 14 best from over 500 hives.

I also the the inferred want to observe from many cause you may not know exactly what you are looking for. Though he is plain that life and production are high on the list.

However. I do take your word for it even though I play mental gymnastics with myself.
Cheer.
gww


----------



## gww

mls
I did find kefuss explanation of his apiaries interesting. 20 in each out yard in breeding distance to treating beekeepers. I also found his using of queen cells to be interesting and so only guaranteeing the mother side of the mix. However he did have bigger numbers than twenty to pick favorites from. I do remember his promoting the other bees around being good to keep mite pressure on his bees.
Cheers
gww


----------



## msl

gww said:


> However. I do take your word for it even though I play mental gymnastics with myself.


please don'
That's why I attached the reference material so you can come to your own opinion.
Ie how did he turn the EFB problem in Chile around in 2 years? (page 21) he requeend the hives with bad characteristics form daughters of hives with good characteristics and as hes says its doesn't matter if its mites or hygenic behavior

here is the lecture that goes with the power point, he mentions the process in passing at about 4:35 



he talks about requeening in france with the best as well at 24:24


----------



## gww

I did also find it interesting that he wanted three different group daughters in each apiary so to be able to compare results between them.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I see both things he wrote. One is philosophical and one is mechanical.


GWW:

Good insights- I appreciate your input, and I do apologize for my delay in reply. As MSL explained, I understand Dr. Kefuss to mean that he re-queened his production stock each year as a matter of due course from his breeder stock- but I imagine there were exceptions to this rule depending upon the circumstances.

Beyond this, I think the bit about allowing each production colony to send out drones is also a key component of his success. So even if the queens ultimately get replaced by beekeeper intervention, they are able to contribute to next years' gene pool before they exit stage left.

I also know that there are philosophical ideas that Dr. Kefuss has concerning resistance breeding that he has never implemented- an example being breeding for tolerance.

My suggestion is that once we wrap-up this discussion, we might collectively consider further questions or clarifications we want to understand. No guarantees, but Dr. Kefuss has thus far been very helpful and generous in his responses and we might be able to solicit feedback directly from the 'horse's mouth'.


----------



## Litsinger

Things are starting to turn the corner in earnest here in Western Kentucky. Most of the maples and elms are now in full-bloom and the healthy colonies are busy hauling in quite a bit of dirty yellow pollen. Ironically, not too much henbit nor purple dead nettle available yet.

It is interesting to observe the temperature, humidity and weight data trends from the reference colony (#1911). In general, you can see a widening delta between the ambient temperature and the internal temperature as brood rearing ramps up.

Two colonies are hanging on by the skin of their proverbial teeth (namely 1804 and 2010). The forecast indicates nighttime lows in the 50's next week so I'll make a point to dig into both and see if anything can (or should) be done for them.

Otherwise I have been burning it at both ends to get everything ready for the upcoming season. According to reliable reports, things are a few days early this year.

I was able to get through all the drawn comb from last year and was pleasantly surprised to find that I could straighten-out most of the wonky comb by employing a hair dryer to soften the comb while applying a little steady pressure- while time consuming it was satisfying to salvage most of what I figured was a lost cause.

Next steps include setting-out a few more swarm traps and getting all the new hive bodies loaded in anticipation of setting them out near the time the redbud blooms- seemed to serve as a good phenological cue last year.


----------



## gww

Russ


> but I imagine there were exceptions to this rule depending upon the circumstances.


Keep in mind. I am not promoting my or any avenue. I know who I am talking to with you and mls and so I am discussing. 

My uninformed opinion would be the doc was not resistant to adding a new genetic to his mix if it showed promise. And I still fall back on the putting drone brood frames in all hives and not just breeders. Also with the separated small scale apiaries and the mentioned fact of wanting each to have queens from at least three different groups in the each apiary to compare with each other implies not just one group being replaced by queens made from five best mothers. I can be a little dense when parsing though stuff that might be simple.

My denseness should not be construed as doubting what you guys know in any way. I usually can make that plain if contesting is my plan. I think you both try harder then me and I respect the output from you all.
Either way, it is interesting.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Keep in mind. I am not promoting my or any avenue.


GWW:

From my very humble vantage point you ask a good question- and the fact that I am not certain of the answer means that it would be worthwhile to follow-up with Dr. Kefuss to be certain of his normal process for re-queening and also understand any exceptions and/or importations of new genetic material.

I do know that he is a big proponent of open mating as a rule- largely to encourage genetic diversity by way of the drone contributions of neighboring colonies. This (along with routinely spreading breeder stock out among remote apiaries as you pointed out) might be a big part of minimizing inbreeding while simultaneously applying heavy genetic control through systematic re-queening from breeder stock.

I agree with you that this stuff is interesting- while I will likely never execute a breeding program nearly as stringent nor disciplined as Dr. Kefuss, it is instructive to me to understand the 'why' such that I can look for the same clues and trends in my own yard, and be better equipped to react appropriately to the observations.

Keep asking the questions- I know it is helpful to me personally to discuss these topics, as it aids in understanding and I learn a lot from you!


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Two colonies are hanging on by the skin of their proverbial teeth (namely 1804 and 2010). The forecast indicates nighttime lows in the 50's next week so I'll make a point to dig into both and see if anything can (or should) be done for them.


While I haven't yet had the opportunity to get into #2010, I did tear-down #1804- but only after literally being in front of the hive to watch an abscond in process. The resident queen and the remaining handful of bees came out of the upper entrance and clustered on the lip of the outer cover. Tearing the boxes down revealed a smattering of capped and open cells with eggs and larvae in all stages. This hive swarmed last season and was hived as #2017- which also died-out earlier in the winter.

I also had an unpleasant surprise in finding #1909 dwindled down to a couple handfuls of bees and a live queen abandoned in the box below the loose cluster. They were shaken-out. There were maybe 100 capped cells with some bees emerging and no evidence of fresh eggs nor larvae. This hive also swarmed last season and was hived as #2011 (the reference colony erroneously referred to as #1911 in post 1,822 above). They were the strongest colony coming out of winter last year and are arguably the strongest coming out of winter again this year. 

Assuming that I need to shake-out #2010, that leaves winter losses at 7 to-date.

The only other colony I am perplexed by at the moment is #1910. They have lots of foraging traffic but the pollen gathering lags the other colonies so I suspect they might have queen troubles. This is the colony whose queen spent the night out of doors due to beekeeper error this past fall, so they will be a priority for a through inspection when the current cold spell moves out.



Litsinger said:


> I was able to get through all the drawn comb from last year and was pleasantly surprised to find that I could straighten-out most of the wonky comb by employing a hair dryer to soften the comb while applying a little steady pressure- while time consuming it was satisfying to salvage most of what I figured was a lost cause.


I went through the comb from #1909 and fixed a few- an example 'before' and 'after' attached.



Litsinger said:


> Next steps include setting-out a few more swarm traps and getting all the new hive bodies loaded in anticipation of setting them out near the time the redbud blooms- seemed to serve as a good phenological cue last year.


I've set out all the swarm traps that I have spaces for and all the hive bodies loaded and ready to deploy in the next couple of weeks.

Now on to planting the remainder of the bareroot orchard stock and get four more hive stands built...


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Assuming that I need to shake-out #2010, that leaves winter losses at 7 to-date.
> 
> The only other colony I am perplexed by at the moment is #1910. They have lots of foraging traffic but the pollen gathering lags the other colonies so I suspect they might have queen troubles. This is the colony whose queen spent the night out of doors due to beekeeper error this past fall, so they will be a priority for a through inspection when the current cold spell moves out.


I did in-fact have to shake #2010 out as they had dwindled down to a handful of bees and were making little progress.

I also found #1910 queenless, so I combined them with an overwintered queenright nuc (#2005) and this combined colony now seems to be in a better position to succeed.

While I won't bet on there being no other early season trouble, all the remaining nineteen (19) colonies seem to be off to the races and the weather and forage are now favorable.

Thus I am ready to count winter losses at 8 out of 27 or effectively 30%, broken-down as follows:

Two early failures (October) - #2014 and #2018
Two mid failures (December)- #2017 and #2012
Four late failures (March)- #1804, #1909, #2010 and #1910

This equates into a 25% failure for founder colonies and a 33% failure for new swarm starts.

While the sample size is still small, it appears the most reliable predictor of overwintering is the 48-hour mite drop total recorded at the Summer Solstice. Anything over 70 looks like better than even-money odds for winter failure.

The most curious overwintered colony at this point is #2007- their mite drop numbers to-date are consistently higher than the apiary average and their housekeeping is similarly worse than average... and yet they continue to have a robust population. Might be a ticking mite bomb.

Looking at the question of sustainability (at least to-date) I started the 2020 season with twelve (12) overwintered colonies. Over the season I brought in one (1) outside swarm (#2016) and have a net increase of six (6) colonies from the 2020 overwintered stock, or a net 50% year-over-year increase.

Based on last year's swarm activity and applying last year's historical factors, my goal at this point will be to go into fall with approximately forty (40) colonies with an expectation of having approximately thirty (30) colonies coming through to 2022. We'll see what happens.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thus I am ready to count winter losses at 8 out of 27 or effectively 30%, broken-down as follows:


Good deal.
An acceptable and manageable case so far.
I never had it this good; not once.


----------



## gww

Russ
And to think the first year you were wanting only six colonies if my memory is correct. You are going in the wrong direction. 😊 
Good luck and nice concise report.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> ... you were wanting only six colonies...


I think Roger Patterson would call it _'Bee Fever'_...


----------



## Litsinger

I would be embarrassed to admit how excited I was to see the first (and only) drone on the wing yesterday, orienting at Hive #1905. This is almost three weeks later than the first drones were observed last year.

I would not however be embarrassed to admit how excited I was to see myriad Trilliums preparing to bloom. Some three years ago, I saw a single trillium in bloom along the wood's edge behind Hive #1804. I have not observed any the past two years and then this year there is a flourishing of clonal growth. Based on the ephemeral nature of one of the greatest treats one gets to see in the Eastern woods, I warned my kids with grave and solemn oaths not to disturb them or else...

It appears this may be a colony of Trillium cuneatum or Little Sweet Betsy


----------



## William Bagwell

Saw a few walking drones last weekend, quite a few flying drones today. Two biggest hives both still have a _bunch_ of capped drone brood. Hope to have better success with splits / re-queening this year than last. 

Wife loves the Trillium! We have a few in our woods, lots of Lady Slippers which are neat looking. Used to have some False Aloe (aka Rattlesnake Master) have not seen any in a few years. Wife could fill pages with 'plant talk' if I could get her to do forums


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> I would be embarrassed to admit how excited I was to see the first (and only) drone on the wing yesterday, orienting at Hive #1905. This is almost three weeks later than the first drones were observed last year.
> 
> I would not however be embarrassed to admit how excited I was to see myriad Trilliums preparing to bloom. Some three years ago, I saw a single trillium in bloom along the wood's edge behind Hive #1804. I have not observed any the past two years and then this year there is a flourishing of clonal growth. Based on the ephemeral nature of one of the greatest treats one gets to see in the Eastern woods, I warned my kids with grave and solemn oaths not to disturb them or else...
> 
> It appears this may be a colony of Trillium cuneatum or Little Sweet Betsy


Very common flower around here. Sadly, I cannot remember the name we called it, but it wasn't trillium. Even when we were kids we were very careful not to step on them, even making our paths through the woods specifically to avoid them. I don't know why, but all the boys seemed to believe it was wrong to step on them. 

Not up yet here, but I took a trip today 2 hours south, to Urbana Il, and they were sprouting everywhere, but not blooming yet.


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> Wife loves the Trillium! We have a few in our woods, lots of Lady Slippers which are neat looking. Used to have some False Aloe (aka Rattlesnake Master) have not seen any in a few years. Wife could fill pages with 'plant talk' if I could get her to do forums


William:

If you're anything like me, you probably married way up... smart man.

I have never seen Rattlesnake Master in our region, but I do see a few Lady Slippers from time-to-time. Other more sensitive woodland flora we do see around here are Green Dragon, Jack-in-the-pulpit, Black Cohosh and Wild Ginger among others.



AR1 said:


> Very common flower around here. Sadly, I cannot remember the name we called it, but it wasn't trillium.


AR1:

As I understand it, trilliums in general historically used to be called 'Birthroot'. People around here also commonly call them 'Toadshades'. Maybe one of these is the name you are looking for?

Otherwise, Wikipedia offers, whip-poor-will flower and bloody butcher as other possibilities.


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## AR1

Litsinger said:


> AR1:
> 
> As I understand it, trilliums in general historically used to be called 'Birthroot'. People around here also commonly call them 'Toadshades'. Maybe one of these is the name you are looking for?
> 
> Otherwise, Wikipedia offers, whip-poor-will flower and bloody butcher as other possibilities.


Nope, none of those. The only thing that comes to mind is mayflower, but that's something else.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> The only thing that comes to mind is mayflower, but that's something else.


The two 'May' flowers that enjoy a relatively wide distribution around here are:

Mayapples - Podophyllum - Wikipedia

and

Maypops- Passiflora incarnata - Wikipedia

The first is definitely a woodland species that one might find in similar environments to trilliums. The other however tends to occupy hedges and fencerows in full sun.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> ...it appears this may be a colony of Trillium cuneatum...


Things are really ramping-up here in the hot corner of the Bluegrass.

First, I will begin with a clarification- after consulting with our regional horticulturalist, he clarified that the trillium colony we have here at the homeplace is Trillium recurvatum or Prairie Trillium.

Last night, I finished getting the last of the swarm traps out and it was none too soon as scouts have just started investigating in earnest this afternoon. There have been a few scattered reports of swarms across the Commonwealth but nothing widespread yet.

I am always looking for a reliable bloom cue for when swarming should start, and going back through my records I find that the first swarm of the season the past three seasons has been caught +/- 4 days of the first white clover blooms. I noticed the first clover blooming yesterday (4.5), so we'll see if this 'tell' lives up to past correlation. It would make sense however given that I have always read that an ideally-timed prime swarm would issue just prior to the main flow.

Of the nineteen (19) overwintered colonies, twelve (12) are in 8-frame Langstroth hives and I intend to manage them as production colonies. Based on last year's observations, this means primarily:

1. Adding space when needed between brood boxes per the Tim Rowe Method (i.e. bisecting the broodnest with a full box)- particularly before the Summer Solstice.
2. Plugging the upper entrances in an effort to inspire them to move their broodnest down and backfill as they go.

Inspecting the twelve today, a few observations:

1. All colonies started broodrearing in the top box.
2. Half the colonies (6) have between 7-9 frames of bees and an extensive amount of capped brood.
3. Three (3) colonies are strong and have started queen cups: #1907 (20 frames), #1912 (14 frames), and 2003 (16 frames). These colonies got reversals or added boxes.
4. Three (3) colonies are off to a slow start with between 4-6 frames: #1805, #2002 and #2005. All had brood in all stages however.

Given the amount of capped brood I saw, I expect that over the next two weeks things will really progress in terms of colony expansion.


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## gww

Looking good
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> The Mite’s Role in Selection and Maintenance of Host / Parasite Equilibrium


There have been a few recent studies which have examined the genetic make-up of varroa mites in two resistant populations (Gotland and Toulouse) in an attempt to understand whether:

The genetic signature of the mite populations in resistant colonies differ from susceptible colonies and;

The relative diversity of the mite population impacts their virulence.

In the study _Population genetics of ectoparasitic mites suggest arms race with honeybee hosts_ (2019 Beaurepaire et al):

_The mites from the mite-resistant population on Gotland were compared with a geographically neighboring mite population from managed mite-susceptible honeybees that have not experienced natural selection pressures. The changes in the genetic diversity and genetic structure was compared over time using microsatellites to compare historic mite samples collected in 2009 with current mite samples collected from the same populations in 2017 and 2018.

… these … analyses clearly indicate that V. destructor populations have changed within the eight years separating the collection of the current and historical samples. These changes led to a higher level of differentiation and an increased diversity of mite genotypes in the resistant colonies compared to the susceptible ones.

This observation suggests that a strong selection against the most common mite genotypes is occurring in the resistant colonies. To conclude, the above-mentioned evidences strongly suggest that the main factor responsible for the temporal changes in the genetic structure of V. destructor measured here are caused by the strong selection pressures induced through the co-evolution of the mite with its host, rapidly leading to observable genetic changes in the parasite population, potentially aiding their survival in adapted mite-resistant A. mellifera colonies.

In conclusion, the observed changes over time in the genetic structure of V. destructor suggest adaptations of the parasite, in a host-parasite coevolutionary arms race, most likely in response to selection pressures applied by the adapted resistant traits of the host. The magnitude of these changes between the historic and current samples of this study demonstrate a relatively fast response._

Building on this work, research entitled, _Selection for outbreeding in Varroa parasitising resistant honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies _was published last year by Conlon et al which:

_… investigated the potential for the evolution of counter resistance traits and selection for outbreeding in Varroa infesting resistant honey bee colonies near Toulouse, France.

Having identified colonies which exhibited unusually high rates of nonreproducing Varroa, we investigated the reproductive success of Varroa between singly and multiply infested cells. We then used genetic analyses to test if reproductive success was linked to genetic polymorphism in founding females. Selection for increased recombination, via outbreeding, could increase evolutionary rates in this Varroa population and indicate it is engaged in a co-evolutionary arms race with its host.

We screened four honey bee colonies, three (Mother; Daughter 1; and Daughter 2) resistant and one (Daughter 3) susceptible. The mother colony was produced in 2015 while the 3 daughters came from 2016. None of the resistant colonies varied significantly from a 50:50 distribution of resistant:susceptible pupae.

…only the nonresistant colony exhibited significant variation from a 50:50 ratio of Resistant:Susceptible pupae, with no intermediate levels of resistance, supported the previous identification of a single resistance-linked locus in this population and suggests Mendelian inheritance of the resistance trait.

Our results show that, when Varroa resistance is allowed to develop by natural selection, it is possible for a host–parasite relationship to evolve. The increased reproductive success we identify when Varroa co-infests the drone pupae of resistant honey bee colonies means that, in contrast to acaricide-treated colonies, there may be selection for outbred offspring. This, combined with a small proportion of Varroa reproducing in each generation, could reduce the selective pressure for the evolution of more virulent counter resistance traits and result in a more stable host–parasite relationship._

While there is obviously still much to learn about the complex interaction between varroa and its’ adopted host, a few interesting observations can be made from the above research:

It would appear (at least in the two populations above) that greater mite genetic diversity within a given bee population comports with lower virulence.

Beaurepaire’s work suggests that a different mite genetic background is found in the resistant population on Gotland versus the susceptible population.

Conlon’s work suggests that mite outbreeding increases reproductive success, but that other factors in the Kefuss’ population work in conjunction to support a stable mite-host relationship.


----------



## Litsinger

I recently listened to the summary results lectures from the EurBeST Study and it yielded some interesting results and observations of the status of resistance breeding in Europe. The project was birthed out of a 2017 European Commission mandate to outline the existence and development of resistance stock throughout the EU.

Styled as the largest honey bee research effort conducted to-date, the project encompassed over 100 beekeepers, 5 countries, 7 subspecies and 23 different resistance breeding lines which were propagated to create almost 800 colonies tested side-by-side against over 3,500 colonies in identical local management conditions. It also built-upon the foundational observations documented in the COLOSS GEI Experiment and the SmartBees initiative.

Ultimately, the results and attending recommendations are succinctly summarized in three lectures:

In Part 1, Cecilia Costa summarizes Colony development results of the EurBeST colonies versus beekeepers’ standard stock observing that:

Resistant colonies were equal or better than standard stock for the parameters of strength, gentleness and swarming proclivity.
Resistant colonies were less productive than standard stock in terms of honey yield and it was speculated that this was at least in part due to strong genotype-environment interactions.
In Part 2, Marin Kovacic summarizes Varroa Resistance results of the EurBeST colonies versus beekeepers’ standard stock observing that:

Resistant colonies had lower infestation than standard stock.
In many cases, expression of resistance traits was more influenced by environment than genetic background (particularly SMR).
Hygienic behavior exhibited the highest inverse correlation with infestation.
In Part 3, Ralph Büchler presents a case study on the economics of queen production and an overall project summary observing/recommending:

Well-selected stock is a major factor of economic success in commercial beekeeping.
Regional breeding structures need to be developed.
Selection for resistance works, but it is costly.
The market for resistant queens has to be improved.
Funding for honey bee breeding programs is needed.


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## Gray Goose

more funding, who would have figured that one would pop up.
thanks for the update Russ I'll watch the 3 parts when Time permits.

GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I'll watch the 3 parts when Time permits.


GG:

The 3-part presentations are part of a total of fifteen pre-recorded presentations located here:



https://www.eurbest.eu/Conference/Entry/Conf-home-page/Conf-ppts/



You will need credentials to sign-in:

Username: visitor
Password: eurobest

Also, Dr. Büchler will be hosting a live Q+A regarding the study results at 9:00 a.m. CDT this Wednesday (4.14):





__





Join our Cloud HD Video Meeting


Zoom is the leader in modern enterprise video communications, with an easy, reliable cloud platform for video and audio conferencing, chat, and webinars across mobile, desktop, and room systems. Zoom Rooms is the original software-based conference room solution used around the world in board...




zoom.us





passcode: EurBeST


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Also, Dr. Büchler will be hosting a live Q+A regarding the study results at 9:00 a.m. CDT this Wednesday (4.14)


Interesting summary presentation of the EurBeST study this morning. At the end of the formal presentation, Dr. Büchler summarized their results and recommendations as follows:

1. Local lines were less infested than non-local lines. Meaning practically that imported resistant bees did less well than local resistant bees. He gave an anecdote of how one of the French 'hybrid' lines had the best overall varroa resistance in France and the worst overall resistance in Germany.

2. The observed advantages of local bee populations underscores the importance of robust regional breeding programs.

3. The high cost of selection deserves public funding. While philosophically I may not support the ends justifying the means, his advocacy on this point is based on two components:

Resistant genetics are costly to produce.
The queen market at present (at least in Europe) likely does not adequately support the overall cost of successful resistance breeding and propagation.

Also interesting was a discussion about how large of a population is required to sustain a breeding program. As you might have guessed, the answer was 'it depends'- but further discussion noted that 50+ colonies would likely be the bare minimum and 80+ would be a more ideal minimum, with the caveat that these recommendations are based more on anecdotes rather than controlled scientific inquiry.

Beyond this, there were ironically several questions geared toward what classifies as a locally-adapted population in areas where the honey bee is non-native. Lots of discussion around this topic but it ultimately came down to evaluating what survives in your locale and then expecting that local-adaptation might be substantially achieved in the 3rd or 4th generation.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> The ‘Bond’ Methods


In the course of his treatment-free breeding work, Dr. Kefuss has developed three (3) ‘Bond’ methods as briefly described in his 2019 _Varroa Black Holes_ presentation at Apimondia:

Bond Test (BT) -1998 Bremen ‘Live and Let Die’. Advantage: Less work in the long-term. Disadvantage: High losses on a regular basis until resistance or tolerance appears. Took on average 11 hours to select for each breeder queen. High losses at the beginning but less work.
Bond Accelerated Test (BAT) - 2003 Ljubljana ‘Survive or Die Now’: Advantage: Know in about 6 months whether the colony will survive or not. Eliminates 90% of not-resistant colonies within 6 months. Disadvantage: Too fast to select for long-term resistance mechanisms.
Soft Bond Test (SB) - 2009 Montpellier Disadvantage: Do more expensive and time-consuming testing on a diminishing number of hives (i.e. low losses- more work). Advantages:
Natural mating.
No special equipment needed.
Hygienic behavior increases resistance to brood diseases.
Limited losses.
Save time and money spent on treatments.
Comforting because of few risks.

When asked via personal correspondence which method he would pursue if he had it to do all over again, he replied- _‘If I was starting over from scratch I would again start out with the Bond test just to quickly get an idea of the general resistance situation of my hives and reproduce from the best. This gives you the least amount of work but you will probably have higher colony losses at the beginning. If you wish to cut your colony losses then you might wish to use the Soft Bond Test once you have located your better colonies for production and resistance.’_

In follow-up posts, I’ll outline each of these approaches in more detail and consider their implications in a TF breeding program.

p.s. In subsequent posts I will be referring more frequently to personal correspondence with Dr. Kefuss who has graciously given me permission to quote him.


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## lharder

I have some questions for Dr. Kefuss if you wouldn't mind passing them along. Mostly about about his beekeeping methods.

1. Does he use queen excluders?
2. Does he use foundation?
3. Does he manage drone production in his colonies?
4. When does he take brood samples for mites?
5. Does he ever take drone brood samples?

I think management style has some influence on success. Would like to get an idea of his management style for context.


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## Litsinger

lharder said:


> I have some questions for Dr. Kefuss if you wouldn't mind passing them along.


Leroy:

Thank you for your post. I passed your questions along to Dr. Kefuss. No promises he will respond, but he has been good about getting back with me thus far. Might take a little time, however. Have a great week.

Russ


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## Litsinger

Things are off to a slow and steady start to the season in Western Kentucky. A few quick highlights:

1. First swarm of the season came inbound to a trap this morning from outside the apiary- of course they picked one of the Warre set-ups. I posted a bit about this and the first ill-fated swarm in my yard last week (assumed from #1912) over in the Kentucky thread.

2. I've witnessed two practice swarms in the last two days- the net effect of which is as observed in Photos 1 and 2 attached.

3. The 'Reference Colony' (#2011) is showing the first significant gains in weight (Photo 3) starting this past Sunday (4.25) and the blackberries are all but ready to bloom.

4. Went through all twelve (12) production colonies yesterday. The best is #1911 with approximately 23 frames of bees, and the worst is #2005 with approximately 6 frames of bees. This is the overwintered nuc that I combined with a queenless colony. I can't be sure, but some of the foragers seem to exhibit what might be CBPV based strictly on visual observation. Most of the colonies (save #2005) are heavy with nectar in the top box.

I continue to manage the production colonies in general conformity to Tim Rowe's Rose Hive Method (see attached) and have been introducing boxes of foundationless frames interspersed with drawn comb between brood boxes when each box has at least 6 frames of bees in an effort to effect systematic comb renewal. As I considered how I would know at a glance when a box was added to the stack, I decided to experiment using adhesive dots in general accord with to the queen marking paradigm. As it happens, they don't make white nor gray adhesive dots, so this year gets to be orange (Photo 4). I decided to try this after I found that painter's tape holds up remarkably well for identifying hive numbers, etc.

Several of the Warre 'genetic resources' look very ready to swarm and I found more than a few capped swarm cells (Photo 5 for example) during my inspections yesterday- so it is game on down here...


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## GregB

I have seen this "Rose" hive demo before.
Also want a single size frame/box, albeit a smaller one, sort of a modified Warre.
Good to read your Warre observations, Russ.

I am itching to start my CVH this season - need some swarms caught and some frames cut!


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## gww

russ
Since you are in expansion mode, you should cut out a swarm cell or two and stick it with a small amount of bees and get an extra queen or two bred. Not being bossy and not saying you have not thought of this but just in case and if it is interesting. 
Have fun and good luck and nice report.
Cheers
gww


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## AR1

Ha. Your 'worst' hive would be my best (and only). Between last fall and winter, it's been a weird year so far.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I am itching to start my CVH this season - need some swarms caught and some frames cut!


GregV:

I do apologize for my delay in reply- I have had a hard time carving out enough time to spend in front of the computer. It has been busy around here.

I am really interested to read about your CVH experimentations. I am curious whether the hive design has an impact upon colony build-up and overwintering success in your environment.

I am convinced based on my observations that the colonies around here prefer the Warre set-up to the Langstroth set-up- I don't know if this is due to the volume/aspect ratio, the frameless aspect, the hive body wall thickness or a combination thereof, but they consistently attract more swarm scout interest and tend to overwinter better.

I'll look forward to your updates with your CVH compared to your other hive set-ups. 

Russ


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Since you are in expansion mode, you should cut out a swarm cell or two and stick it with a small amount of bees and get an extra queen or two bred.


GWW:

You are right of course- but I do have a method (albeit possibly ill-advised) to my madness.

In short, I have to-date been considering myself more of a curator of the local genetic resource rather than being engaged in any serious efforts in selection.

My thoughts along this line have been two-fold:

1. I want to better understand the mechanism(s) that might be at work in allowing colonies to survive in a TF context and thus hopefully have a more data-driven set of criteria for evaluating which stocks might be best-suited to propagate from.

2. I want to have as broad a local genetic base as possible in the increasingly more-likely scenario that there are multiple resistance/tolerance mechanisms at work.

Thus while I acknowledge that I am engaged in selection by virtue of every management decision I make, I am trying to have as small a footprint as possible for the time being to allow me to evaluate and study the relatively natural dynamics of the colonies and then compare these dynamics year-over-year as I make incremental changes.

A couple anecdotes:

1. My mite counts were higher on average last year than they were in the preceding two years. Is this a function of natural mite build-up in more established colonies, a reflection of my (relatively meager) efforts to control swarming, a cyclical situation, a reflection of a higher colony density or some combination thereof? By only hiving naturally-generated reproductive swarms I feel that I am typically propagating the colonies best-positioned to reproduce by fission in the face of the current local conditions (including mite load).

2. When left to their own devices, how do colonies determine when to swarm, what constituent of bees to take with them, and which one of the remaining cells will head-up the resident colony? I know what the books say, but my own observations over the last few years suggest that the answers are general principles rather than immutable laws. To be certain, much of this can only be personally observed when colonies are allowed to swarm. Does any of this impact the resistance profile of the daughter colony?

As an example, colony #2011 (the 'Reference Colony') issued a prime swarm yesterday and I got to watch the whole process from beginning to end. The swarm emerged at approximately 10:00 a.m. and bivouacked at about 35 feet in the air. Given the cluster was higher up than I wanted to dare retrieval on, I decided to watch how the process would play-out. After scouting several of the bait hives in my yard, they chose to move into one at about 3:30 p.m. and I got to watch them decamp and fly into the box.






Then, this morning (to my surprise) I found a virgin queen deposited at the front door of the colony- presumably dispatched when it became evident that they didn't need her. So obviously (at least in this case) the prime swarm did not issue when the first swarm cell was capped- instead waiting to take along at least one virgin queen for insurance?

So, ultimately I am trying to evaluate how a colony decides upon the queen that will provide the genetic basis for their future- and does any of this impact their resistance/tolerance/survival? Is there at times possibly something that is lost when the beekeeper decides which queens get to contribute to the gene pool?


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Between last fall and winter, it's been a weird year so far.


AR1:

To be fair, one of the advantages of having more colonies is you have the opportunity to observe a much wider range of progress, development and outcomes year-over-year that make the prospect of selection and propagation both tempting and overwhelming. It is why I enjoy having the opportunity to bring local swarm stock into the apiary- at least in my experience they bring quite a variety of characteristics and colony dynamics which are helpful if for no other reason than for comparison.


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## gww

Russ
Your swarm theory of the two queens has to mean you are sure of it being a primary swarm and not a secondary one that left with several virgins.

I took the same position on the let all live and only go by life and not best when I did make splits. I know it does not cover your studying of the swarming it's self and effect though might be pretty close since most of the splits I made were due to swarm prep and me being just selfish enough not to want to lose the bees though it looks like you got that covered and good for you.

The are still doing good to want to swarm for sure.
Nice post.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Your swarm theory of the two queens has to mean you are sure of it being a primary swarm and not a secondary one that left with several virgins.


That's the beauty of having a hive monitoring gizmo that records hive weight, temperature and relative humidity every hour 😎.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> AR1:
> 
> To be fair, one of the advantages of having more colonies is you have the opportunity to observe a much wider range of progress, development and outcomes year-over-year that make the prospect of selection and propagation both tempting and overwhelming. It is why I enjoy having the opportunity to bring local swarm stock into the apiary- at least in my experience they bring quite a variety of characteristics and colony dynamics which are helpful if for no other reason than for comparison.


Sounds like fun! I have never had more than 2 stocks at one time, and that only for one season a few years ago when I caught a swarm. I suppose they were Italian, big, fuzzy yellow bees that got the most horrible varroa/DWV I have seen. They died in late fall the same year they swarmed. Completely vulnerable. 

Since then I have been working with a swarm caught at my home. Always hoping for more swarms but they are rare here. I don't believe there is any true feral stock in this area. Not enough contiguous woodlands. I have had the thought of allowing swarms to escape at my dad's farm. Quite a lot of woods around there and human population is low for miles around.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Always hoping for more swarms but they are rare here.


I can appreciate this- have you put yourself on local swarm lists?

I have been surprised learning that when people around here observe a swarm they:

1. Call the local University of Kentucky Extension office.
2. Call the county sheriff.
3. Call the volunteer fire department.
4. Post it on their FB page.
5. Call someone they know who hives swarms.

I received several referrals last year from folks I know who heard about swarms from others in their circle. So if you put the word out that you're interested in swarms, you might be surprised what kind of response you might get- folks always seem eager to have someone available to respond to these calls. Just food for thought.


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## AR1

I have been called to kill wasps, but no swarms except one from a beekeeper who heard that his hive swarmed and was too far away to get there in time. I was too late as well.

It seems odd to me that people can't distinguish bees and wasps. I've known the difference since I was a little kid.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I've known the difference since I was a little kid.


AR1:

I wonder if part of this is a reflection of the environment one grows up in. It hasn't been that long ago that most folks were raised on or around a farm and had a more intuitive sense of the natural and domesticated world around them- dealing with wasps and hornets in barns and bees in tree hollows (at least before varroa). Now, many are not afforded these same opportunities if they live and remain in an urban environment. Just a guess...

p.s. Who can forget the ground-nesting yellowjackets if you've ever had the pleasure of mowing over the top of one of their nests unawares .


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## Litsinger

So today was yet another reminder that I don't really know anything about bees.

On Tuesday, hive #1912 issued a swarm. As of now, it remains clustered over 60' up near the top of a big red oak.

This morning, hive #2001 issued a swarm. As I watched them gather in the air, I was struck by how low the mass of flying bees hovered- the truth be known, I was looking forward to an easy swarm retrieval. I also noted that a significant amount of bees remained bearded on the outside of the hive as the swarm alighted.

The cluster landed on the hive stand of hive #1912 which sits approximately 30' to the South of #2001. I would judge it to be approximately a 2 pound swarm.

As I watched the cluster, I noticed that a significant number of the swarming bees were bum-rushing the entrance of #1912 and before I knew it, the dark mated queen from #2001 rushed into #1912. A usurpation swarm. The whole event from start-to-finish took less than 10 minutes.

This is only the second time I have observed this behavior, and I've never heard of this type of swarm occurring this early in the season.

After scratching my head, I came inside for lunch- while eating I hear the unmistakable sound of a swarm emerging- from #1912.

They clustered on a branch that was low enough to get to, so I commence to gathering them up with a receptacle (o.k. it is a potted plant liner) attached to the end of a telescoping pole.

While knocking the bees into the bucket, a mass of bees from #2001 alights and begins landing in the bucket and joining with the cluster on the limb.

Before it is all said-and-done, I have to make four trips to the limb to get most of the bees down and I would anticipate it as 6 pounds or more of bees.

I manage to see one queen (of possibly several) in the swarm as I am dumping out one of the loads of bees, and it is not the dark queen I saw enter the hive from #2001 but it is a light colored virgin.

So- what to make of this? Was the usurpation successful but the colony decided to subsequently swarm on a resident virgin in #1912 rather than dispatch with her?

And why did the cast swarm from #2001 decide to merge with the swarm from #1912?

It has been a weird bee year around here- very mild and wet, so I can only assume some of this kind of behavior is due to not being able to swarm soon after first swarm cell is ready. I've also already observed four practice swarms this season, and one colony has issued two.


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## GregB

I think by and large these behaviors come out of un-naturally close colony placements in human-managed settings.

By "un-naturally close" I mean over the evolutionary time frame it was not common for the multiple colonies to exist few steps away from each other. And so such placements, probably, cause situations for which the bees have not been pre-programmed.

And so here we are scratching our heads and looking for some logic (which is not even there) - all the while the bees themselves have not a clue what they are doing.
They are swamped by clouds of swarming pheromones and various mixed signals that cause them behave like they are drunk. 
"Swarm-drunk" maybe a close enough description.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> AR1:
> 
> p.s. Who can forget the ground-nesting yellowjackets if you've ever had the pleasure of mowing over the top of one of their nests unawares .


My brother, 50 years later still talks about the bumble I swatted off his back. A gang of kids were playing in the creek and he was sitting on an old stump. We heard the buzz and all took off running. He was fattest and slowest, and the only one to get stung. He was sitting right above the entrance.


----------



## gww

Russ
When you come to a conclusion, tell me.  
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> "Swarm-drunk" maybe a close enough description.


GregV:

You might very well be right- that said, the usurpation swarm in particular seemed rather organized even if it wasn't logical- and as Dr. Wyatt Mangum has diligently observed relative to usurpation, _"__From my study of honey bees, the way I think about my bees has changed too.__" _

Thus, at the end of the day, I can only respond to GWW:



gww said:


> When you come to a conclusion, tell me.


By saying that the more I observe bees (and particularly swarm behavior), the more appreciative I become of the seemingly more nuanced behaviors they exhibit in response to a whole litany of environmental factors (including pheromones), and the less convinced I am that I thoroughly understand any of it.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> My brother, 50 years later still talks about the bumble I swatted off his back.


How could I forget about bumble bees! To be certain, their sting hurts a whole lot worse than any bee sting I've ever had...


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> How could I forget about bumble bees! To be certain, their sting hurts a whole lot worse than any bee sting I've ever had...


Fully agree with that. And very thankful the one that got me last year got me instead of my wife!


----------



## Litsinger

Good presentation from Mr. Terry Combs courtesy of the Michigan Treatment Free Beekeepers group.

I think the ethos of the talk can be described by a quote that Terry attributed to Dr. Tom Seeley- _“We need to put beekeeping back into the hands of bees”._

A few highlights:

The Importance of Local Adaptation- At approximately the 00:16:45 mark, Terry presents his thoughts on the impact of local adaptation and the need for bees to retain a connection with their local environment, which includes experiencing the local pest and disease pressure. He remarks, _“Bees need the fight”._

His ‘Simple Recipe’ for Resistance Breeding- At approximately the 00:37:30 mark he outlines his recommended six (6) pillars for resistance breeding:

#1 Leverage your maternal survival line(s) and propagate from the best of the best.
#2 Stop using chemicals.
#3 Don’t feed.
#4 Establish a permanent location with good forage and minimized exposure to agricultural chemicals.
#5 Maintain smaller colonies. Here he subscribes to Dr. Seeley’s principles and there was a fair amount of pushback on this precept in the Q+A. Interesting and thought-provoking dialog.
#6 Maintain Drone Mother colonies.
Key Selection Characteristics- At approximately the 01:13:50 mark, Terry shared the top characteristics (in order of priority) he is looking for both going into the fall and into the spring:

Fall- Low mite loads, absence of disease, colony longevity and ability to self-provision.
Spring- Seasonally-appropriate build-up, low mite loads, swarm impulse.
The Exclusive Use of Swarm Cells- At various points throughout the presentation, Terry makes mention that over his 50 years of beekeeping, he has employed myriad methods of queen production and has concluded that swarm and supersedure cells are the best and most-appropriate method of propagation. He summarizes by saying, _“Take what they offer, and put them to use.” _


----------



## GregB

Thanks for the updates, Russ.
Good read as usual.

One thing always befuddles me (and irritates too) - why these TF writers always omit the obvious need to select *a proper location* where their "simple recipe #1....#6" can be actually implemented for real. As IF it does not matter.
There has to be clear documentation about how to evaluate the location for being suitable for the TF methodology. As IF it does not matter.

The "simple recipe", IMO, has an immediate omission - start with at least X colonies (which will vary based on the location specifics too).
Unless it just got lost in translation, but should be the #0.

Like I have been saying - come to my place and demonstrate to me how it works.
Do it X years in a row.
Consistently and reliably and repeatably.
I will sit back with a beer, watching and smiling.

I want real case studies, including the details on the surrounding context.
Both successful and not successful.

PS: I looked it up - I guess chem-free is working if you keep 3 dozen beehives in *Keyesport, Illinois *(population 400-500)*; *
............Terry teaches how to build and maintain strong, healthy, survivable colonies without the use of medicines and chemicals...............
so this is a very important pre-context that must be specified along with the *"simple recipe #1....#6"*








Keyesport, Illinois - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I want real case studies, including the details on the surrounding context.


GregV:

No argument from me. I suppose I personally try to identify folks who have demonstrated success in a TF context, study what they do and then try to consider carefully how their approach fits into my personal management goals and also assess how translatable it is from their specific situation to mine.

To Mr. Combs' defense, he spends quite a bit of time in his presentation discussing that the first and most important goal in TF beekeeping is to define your goals and your management approach and (as he discusses in his ABJ articles) develop objective tools to measure your progress against your goals and afford you the opportunity to make objective data-driven adjustments as necessary.

About halfway in, he addresses the question of how to be TF in an unfavorable setting (asked by the moderator who is located in metro Detroit) and he doesn't flinch from answering unambiguously.

Further, he offers his personal e-mail address and invites all comers to contact him with any questions or grievances- so I'd say he is giving you leave to take it up with him. 😉


----------



## GregB

I would not even say I have a grievance.

Rather, I want to redefine this entire theme as in:

understand and define your particular circumstance - #1
once that is done, seek out what methodologies fit you - #2

If very lucky, you can indeed check your bees twice a year, get your honey, and call it done for the year.
If very unlucky, you basically "treat, treat, treat" IF indeed and demonstrably this is what you must do.
Most everyone are between these extremes and need to understand where they land and go from there.

In your pretty lucky situation, the TF success is about 75-85%(?) probability it seems (be great if this rate sustains for 5 years).
For me the TF success is 13% as measured (with significant probability of 0%).
So now we are just getting done with the #1.

I know people hate when their bees are dying, but frankly I don't know a better way to measure the TF success rate in each particular locality. But it requires a consistent method and reporting (regardless of success or failure). In practice as we know the success is over-reported and failure is under-reported (just like in fishing, nothing new).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I would not even say I have a grievance.


I understand, GregV. I was speaking somewhat tongue-in-cheek when I used the term 'grievance'.

As usual, you make valid points and I do appreciate the fact that you have been transparent about your results and methodologies. Your reporting approach is what has informed my efforts to be as detailed as I can about my own successes and failures- because I agree with you that we need to get this information out there to help inform (and hopefully improve) our own TF experimentations.

On a serious note, I expect that Mr. Combs would welcome your inquiry and would be glad to offer his input as to what he might do in your situation. If nothing else, it is little more than a little investment of time in composing the e-mail, and then you would be free to implement or ignore his advice as you see fit. He has certainly been very generous to me with his time and feedback.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Thanks for the updates, Russ.
> Good read as usual.
> 
> One thing always befuddles me (and irritates too) - why these TF writers always omit the obvious need to select *a proper location* where their "simple recipe #1....#6" can be actually implemented for real. As IF it does not matter.


I suppose it is just that most of us have no way to control this aspect. One or a few small yards not that far apart, we deal with our local environment and are happy if it works. It would be nice if people mentioned their local environment in these terms.


----------



## AR1

Incidentally, cruising my neighborhood, I see NO beehives in the back yards of those homes that had them the last few years. Is the home beekeeping bubble deflating a bit?


----------



## lharder

I thought it was a good presentation. Selection and management is one leg of sustainability. One other is to stop introducing new challenges (new disease variants, diluting local genetics) to local populations caused by bee movement. This needs to be talked about over and over again as we are forcing bees to adapt to a chaotic environment, not possible. We do need leadership to actively protect local populations of bees and keep them separate from those with big migratory operations, and business people who import bees without regard to local genetics.


----------



## AR1

lharder said:


> I thought it was a good presentation. Selection and management is one leg of sustainability. One other is to stop introducing new challenges (new disease variants, diluting local genetics) to local populations caused by bee movement. This needs to be talked about over and over again as we are forcing bees to adapt to a chaotic environment, not possible. We do need leadership to actively protect local populations of bees and keep them separate from those with big migratory operations, and business people who import bees without regard to local genetics.


I agree, but don't see much chance for change. It would take legal changes in states to limit bee movement, basically outlawing mobile beekeeping across state lines. Both growers and pro beekeepers are not going to go for that. 

One possible avenue would be for California beekeepers to push for state legislation that limits movement to only west coast hives. That would be a huge boon to Cali beekeepers by limiting competition from other states, so they would have an economic interest in pushing for it. But the growers would obviously push back as it would raise their pollination prices.


----------



## lharder

I think one would need to have migratory zones and local bee zones. Can't turn off the tap but we can be much smarter about it. The way we do it now is like having large open air migratory pig or chicken farms. How long before disease overwhelms that system?


----------



## Litsinger

lharder said:


> ... local bee zones.


lharder:

While we might not be able to affect the movement of bees on a large-scale, I can see how having a robust number of overwintered nucs available to local consumers would have the added benefit of minimizing the number of imported colonies while still satisfying the consumer's desire for bees early in the season.

A good conversation on this concept has been discussed on another thread, starting at about post #105.


----------



## Litsinger

It has been a good spring here in Western Kentucky- we are just now experiencing reliably hot weather (i.e. low 90's for highs this week) and the bees have had a lot of excellent forage opportunities. The tulip poplar is done, the blackberries are all but done and the clover continues to produce thanks to milder temperatures and plenty of rain. #2011 has put on 5 pounds in the last 3 days, and you can tell from the graph when I inspected on Friday.

I am one shy of my goal of 40 colonies and I expect we are now near the end of swarm season- which is about the same time as last year though it started three weeks later this year. The swarms in general have been fewer, bigger, more diverse in terms of queen make-up, and harder to get at than last year. I expect some of this has to do with colder, wetter weather this spring compared to last spring.

I got to see a queen return from her mating flight- that was pretty neat.

The class of the yard is #1911 which I recently added two hive bodies to. The five that were there were heavy and jammed with bees.

The only colony in the yard that I could anticipate still swarming is #1906- they swarmed hard last year but have not to my knowledge issued a swarm yet this year.


----------



## gww

That did look like an easy swarm. Those are the most fun when you find them and the hard ones are the most fun when you are done. I am glad someone likes to take pictures.
Cheers
gww


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I am one shy of my goal of 40 colonies


Wow!
Just like that.


----------



## AR1

Dang. Looks nice.


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## Litsinger

Great video recently posted containing interviews of some of our local beekeepers from Kent William's annual 'Bee School'. Gives you a good sense of the people and personalities of my beekeeping neighbors:


----------



## Litsinger

Swarm season (and our main flow for that matter) are effectively wrapped-up here in Western Kentucky.

Swarming started 3 weeks later and ended within a week of last year.

I came out of the winter with 19 colonies and hived 21 swarms, getting right at the 40 colony goal I had set for the year.

This likely rounds-out the home apiary, which is generally set-up as a collection of hive stands that support 3 colonies- two production colonies and a resource colony sandwiched in between- generally as per the attached photo which shows (from left-to-right) an 8-frame production colony, a 10-frame resource colony (i.e. the 'Reference' colony) and a new 8-frame swarm start which will hopefully be utilized for production in the future.

The tale-of-the-tape is as follows:

27 8-frame Langstroth
8 Warre
3 10-frame Langstroth
2 5-frame Langstroth Nucs

Next steps in the yard will include taking 48-hour mite drops near the Summer Solstice.


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## AR1

Lovely! I anticipate hearing your results. 

Interesting that your flow ends so early. This area generally has some flow on into early July, and even through July if the rains hold up well.


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## AR1

So, apparently you are not doing much splitting? I suppose if I were getting that # of swarms I wouldn't split much either.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Interesting that your flow ends so early.


Thanks for your feedback, AR1. While I have only had a few years to study it myself, many beekeepers in my area talk about how our main flow is effectively over when the blackberries are played-out. This year has been a bit unique in that it has remained relatively cool and we have had timely rains which has helped the white clover hold out longer.

This is not to say we don't have any more surplus gathering ahead, but the bulk around here comes from early season foraging.



AR1 said:


> So, apparently you are not doing much splitting?


To be honest I am still flying by the seat of my pants. As I've alluded to before, I have taken a bit of a laissez-faire approach to building up the numbers with a vague notion that this might allow the colony population to better reflect those genetics that seem to fare best under relatively low-management dynamics.

Assuming there is still a significant enough population to work with next spring, the plan (and personal challenge) will be to begin exerting a bit more beekeeper-directed management based on the beekeeper's priorities. Up until now there has been only one selection criteria - survival.


----------



## gww

Russ 
You may know more for next year by oct as you are measuring weight. I for one will be interested in what is shown. Good luck.
Cheers
gww


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> Up until now there has been only one selection criteria - survival.


That's a pretty significant factor. I've found if they don't live, it's all academic. Sounds like you're doing great Russ! Glad to hear it.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> I've found if they don't live, it's all academic.


Truth, Joe. Thank you for your reply.

One of the reasons I have been circumspect about propagation (and culling for that matter) is an acknowledgment that if what I am currently observing is transient, there may be latent resistance mechanisms in some of the more poorly performing, touchy or swarmy colonies that I might be glad will be around to rebuild from should everything come crashing down around my ears.


----------



## AR1

Survival is just about my only goal, with docility a distant second and honey third. Even a rather poorly producing colony will make enough honey for me, but a dead colony won't.


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## Litsinger

Bearding.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Bearding.


Are you going to do anything about it?


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## AR1

Dang! Any bees left INSIDE that hive?


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> Truth, Joe. Thank you for your reply.
> 
> One of the reasons I have been circumspect about propagation (and culling for that matter) is an acknowledgment that if what I am currently observing is transient, there may be latent resistance mechanisms in some of the more poorly performing, touchy or swarmy colonies that I might be glad will be around to rebuild from should everything come crashing down around my ears.


I think it's wise to look at it this way. For commercial guys running thousands of hives they must have methods in place to keep the machine rolling. Doesn't make them wrong any more than the treatment of the chickens in the sandwiches I buy differs from that of the 50 chickens my son has running around our yard. For the rest of us, having to maintain 30 instead of 15 hives to get the same amount of honey because the resistant bees didn't produce as much, .... not such a big deal. 

I did 2 OA dribbles last fall, so I'm not completely treatment-free. I will likely do the same if mites are detected this fall. But like most everyone else, I would love to leave that out. I have enough now that I could probably set up 10 at a different location just to see. If they perish, they perish. Really depends on whether I want to take the time to do adequate record-keeping (not my strong suit so far). For the guys who have the nerve to do this, keep it up!  


AR1 said:


> Survival is just about my only goal, with docility a distant second and honey third. Even a rather poorly producing colony will make enough honey for me, but a dead colony won't.


Agreed on all points.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Are you going to do anything about it?





AR1 said:


> Dang! Any bees left INSIDE that hive?


While it appears that the colonies perform well in the thick-walled Warre hives, they do exhibit greater than average bearding this time of year, especially the colonies that haven't swarmed. I suppose I could prop the lid open, but I have been treating these hives as 'semi-hermetic'.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> For the rest of us, having to maintain 30 instead of 15 hives to get the same amount of honey because the resistant bees didn't produce as much, .... not such a big deal.


Thank you for your reply, Joe. I think your observations are astute. For me, I am frequently contemplating how my management aligns with my goals and vice versa.


----------



## Litsinger

lharder said:


> I have some questions for Dr. Kefuss if you wouldn't mind passing them along. Mostly about about his beekeeping methods.
> 
> 1. Does he use queen excluders?
> 2. Does he use foundation?
> 3. Does he manage drone production in his colonies?
> 4. When does he take brood samples for mites?
> 5. Does he ever take drone brood samples?
> 
> I think management style has some influence on success. Would like to get an idea of his management style for context.


Leroy:

I finally heard back from Dr. Kefuss regarding your questions above. In response he wrote:

_1. I usually don’t use queen excluders
2. I use regular foundation, sometimes only half a sheet where the bees can build a few drone cells.
3. I try to make certain that all colonies have drone comb
4. Normally I don’t take drone brood samples, sometimes I will open the cells to see if they have mites.
5. Normally I don’t take brood samples for mites anymore unless it is for scientific research. If you are just starting to test you might wish to take drone and worker brood samples to eliminate queens from colonies with higher mite counts. That way you will progress faster and loose less colonies. Once you have a certain amount of resistance it can be a lot of work to find a few mites._

Based on his response concerning testing, I asked a follow-up question: 

Regarding mite assays- When you were running your production colonies, did you have a standard mite sampling protocol concerning how often and when during the season that you would test? 

He responded, _I would do the testing for mites whenever it fit in with my work program. Attached is an excel program I use to record the mites found in 100 cells capped brood with purple eyes. Just type in your value and it will add things automatically._

If interested, PM me your e-mail address and I can send you the Excel file. Attached is a PDF of the field data entry sheet.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I get more that any increase made was with the best but every hive that was still alive was not re-queened.


GWW:

Dr. Kefuss got back to me on this question, and I must say I was surprised. 

I asked him:

Did you requeen every production colony every year from breeder stock as a rule, or were there situations where you would let queens head-up a production colony for another season or two? If you would on occasion let a production queen go, was there a particular reason or evaluation criteria you would use to decide to let her go another season or two? 

He replied:

_If the colonies look nice I don’t requeen them. That way I can see how they react to mites in the long term. When a colony starts to decline I will requeen her with daughters from breeder queens._

Just to make sure, I followed up by asking:

Regarding queen replacement- I suppose I have always assumed that you replaced every production colony queen every year as a rule. If I understood your response correctly, you replaced your production queens strictly based on performance and not based on queen age? 

To which he confirmed:

_I don’t replace based on queen age, but on performance._


----------



## gww

Russ
I say this with the best of intentions. You are like a dog with a bone, and let very little slip by once you decide it is a question. You impress me with the effort to get details you want. I do believe you have a talent for assessing and communicating to others in understandable ways. I still expect to learn much from you. 
Cheers
gww


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> While it appears that the colonies perform well in the thick-walled Warre hives, they do exhibit greater than average bearding this time of year, especially the colonies that haven't swarmed. I suppose I could prop the lid open, but I have been treating these hives as 'semi-hermetic'.


Don't you want to add another box maybe?
It just looks a bit smallish to me - only three boxes.
But maybe this is totally fine as well, based on our overall success.

We have been discussing some bearding here (but by your demo, this is nothing):








Layens, Lazutin and Double Deep Lang... oh my


I add the super tomorrow. Thinking the same - you need to add supers.




www.beesource.com


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> You are like a dog with a bone, and let very little slip by once you decide it is a question.


GWW:

Thank you for that kind feedback. I sincerely appreciate it.

I've learned an awful lot from you, and I am impressed with your ability to read something and accurately retain the fundamentals many moons down the road.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Don't you want to add another box maybe?
> It just looks a bit smallish to me - only three boxes.


Thanks for the feedback, GregV. I read through the bearding posts over on the Top Bar forum you shared. That is quite a bit of bearding too.

While it is a good problem to have, I don't have any more Warre woodenware available. And as it relates to utilizing these colonies as genetic resources, the three box set-up seems to be about right in my locale for balancing colony size for overwintering. I also have a couple that are two boxes tall (which seems too small) and a few that are four boxes tall (which seems a bit large). Last year I had this same issue with a four tall set-up in full shade that didn't swarm in the spring.

I do like the outer cover vent hole idea that you suggested. If it seems apparent that they are struggling as we get into the really hot temperatures I will definitely consider making this adjustment.

Thanks again for the input. Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## AR1

What kind of temps are you talking? It's been 90s here this week, report this morning said 97 high today. Warm enough that I slept with the fan on. July temps, and not every July.


----------



## Litsinger

Last 7 days:

6.05 - 87
6.06 - 80
6.07 - 80
6.08 - 80
6.09 - 84
6.10 - 85
6.11 - 91

Looking ahead:

6.12 - 91
6.13 - 89
6.14 - 91
6.15 - 87
6.16 - 84
6.17 - 86
6.18 - 90


----------



## AR1

Nice. Sounds like my kinda place. I imagine it does get a bit warmer on occasion though...

No bearding that I have been on hand to notice.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> While it appears that the colonies perform well in the thick-walled Warre hives, they do exhibit greater than average bearding this time of year, especially the colonies that haven't swarmed. I suppose I could prop the lid open, but I have been treating these hives as 'semi-hermetic'.


so maybe swap this hive with one you have parts for and add a super or 2, especially if you have a good queen with a low population.
this WILL swarm in time.

good luck

GG

p.s. my 2x4 wall insulated hives do not beard at all, the insulation can also keep the heat out.
your presumption is less related to wall thickness, than color or location.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I imagine it does get a bit warmer on occasion though...


It is true, AR1. We've had one of the milder springs in recent memory. The past several years have been marked by 90 degree highs in early May so it has been a welcome change.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> your presumption is less related to wall thickness, than color or location.


True enough, GG. Based on the fact that I had a similar condition last year in full shade, I presume it has everything to do with the amount of ventilation the colonies in the Warre boxes are able to motivate through the cavity.


----------



## Litsinger

Good article in the July ABJ entitled_ 'The Legacy of Mite-Biting Bees' _offers some interesting insights into the latest approaches being employed and evaluated by the Purdue team. A few interesting nuggets:

1. They are exploring more behavioral-challenge assessments rather than strictly relying on mite damage assays. The article suggests more focus is being paid to specific behaviors associated with genetic markers to help guide selection decisions rather than strictly breeding for maximized mite damage numbers.

2. They are preparing to conduct more collaborative research with the University of Guelph, who has been maintaining both a low MPG line and a high MPG line for the purpose of better assessing genetic links. This is interesting to me as it harkens back to Rothenbuhler's AFB breeding efforts and relates to Dr. Kefuss' 'if I had it to do over' suggestion to breed for twin survival strategies in separate lines: One with low MPG for resistance and one with high MPG for tolerance.

3. Krispn Given suggests that a minimum of 100 colonies would be required to successfully maintain a mite-biting breeding program.


----------



## msl

ABJ's standards have fallen....I have a bit of a pet peve when editors don't check the sited sources to see if they say what the writer says they do



> This lineage of bees is lovingly known as the Purdue “mite-biters” or “ankle-biters” for their tendency to amputate the mites’ legs during vigorous combat (though technically, mites have no ankles — only tibiae and tarsi). “My goal is to improve overall colony health by selecting out behavioral resistance mechanisms,” says Given. “We can achieve this by flooding our mating yards with our mite-biter drones. We select the top ‘percent chew’ colonies and cross them best to best — high mite biter crossed with high mite biter — to achieve our goal.” When distributed to commercial beekeepers for stock evaluation, twice as many mite-biter colonies survived the winter compared to unselected stock, which translated to almost four times greater honey production.4





> 4 De la Mora A, Emsen B, Morfin N, Borges D, Eccles L, Kelly PG, Goodwin PH, and Guzman-Novoa E. (2020). Selective breeding for low and high Varroa destructor growth in honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies: Initial results of two generations. Insects. 11(12): 864





https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4450/11/12/864/pdf


has nothing to do with mite-biters and is a Guelph study on there high/low mite lines
they found


> winter mortality rates were 26% and 14% for the HVG and LVG bee types, respectively


so the HVG took 2x the losses but they were not "unselected stock" and only had 16% better survival, a far cry from the 200% claim

Any way this Gluelph study should be of particular interest (far more then the 25 year old MB II program) as they open mated and got results in 2 generations, 2.5% mite loads in sept is very, very impressive
they took 300 colonys, picked the 3 best (lowest mite growth) as breeders (I don't care about the HVG) 
they made 150 queens for gen 1, and used 3 of them for gen 2 breeders. gen 2 has 1/2 the sept mites of gen 1... gen 3 should be inestering to see if there are dimishing returns 

strong selection pressure, a wide net, and making enough queens so that you can find the nuggets to improve the next gen 

the down side is of corce this is a research population focused on a single trait with no thought to economics ... poloation strength, honey yields, EFB/chalk brood reissuance and temperament etc didn't figure in the the breeding discsitions

but this reinforces the lestions form Kefuss, the USDA Russian and poline programs, and others. 
you CAN quickly make progress breeding by mite counts, and it has worked time and time again.


----------



## AR1

msl said:


> Any way this Gluelph study should be of particular interest (far more then the 25 year old MB II program) as they open mated and got results in 2 generations, 2.5% mite loads in sept is very, very impressive
> they took 300 colonys, picked the 3 best (lowest mite growth) as breeders (I don't care about the HVG)
> they made 150 queens for gen 1, and used 3 of them for gen 2 breeders. gen 2 has 1/2 the sept mites of gen 1... gen 3 should be inestering to see if there are dimishing returns


My worry would be a narrow genetic base with that tight selection. Better would be several different labs working on different lines of bees and then evaluating crosses.


----------



## msl

in the above situation I would be much more worried about loss of economic traits ..
North American "nature" would be just fine if honey bees went extinct tomorrow, what really matters is if they are useful to humans

but as they are open mateing... how much bottlenecking is there really?
in the end it matter not as its an experimental pop for research to find gentnicly markers for traits

no one would bat an eye if this was an II pop, such things are done all the time... ie ASU high/low pollen/nectar stocks (to the point the high pollen stocks need supmental feeding to survive and the inverce in low pollen stocks needing pollen supplements were lost after a years break in the II program, the success with open mating makes this interesting.

but the kicker is this


> The queens produced were allowed to open mate at a common mating yard isolated at least 5 km from other apiaries.


no mention of the drone stock used, but both high and low mite queens were mated there, sujesting a strong queen line efect


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> ABJ's standards have fallen....I have a bit of a pet peve when editors don't check the sited sources to see if they say what the writer says they do


MSL:

Thank you for your post. After following-through with the references, I concur with you that there appears to be no reasonable way to make the particular narrative in question correlate to the research.

I can only wonder if the author has conflated several of the research papers and/or included unpublished information in describing the results. For example, I note that the 2012 Guzman-Novoa et al paper refers to Guelph low and high MPG stock that was evaluated for mite biting behavior:

_... the genotypes selected for high and low varroa mite population growth, came from a breeding program currently being conducted at the University of Guelph._

And the 2020 Morfin et al paper contains a winter survival component which compares mite-biting stock to non-selected stock:

_Lastly, the proportion of colonies that survived the winter (excluding the colonies that died in September) was 0.72 for the Indiana mite-biter colonies (N= 18), which was three times higher
than that of the Italian bee colonies (0.27) (N=15)._

That said, I can find in none of the papers (including the 2020 De la Mora et al study) that evaluates productivity, so I cannot give the author the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Thanks again for the feedback. Have a great day.

Russ


----------



## msl

Litsinger said:


> And the 2020 Morfin et al paper contains a winter survival component which compares mite-biting stock to non-selected stock:


yes, but


> An apiary with 36 colonies was established in
> West Lafayette, IN, USA. Half of the colonies
> were headed by sister queens from the stock se-
> lected for increased mutilation of V. d e s t r u c t o r
> mites, or Indiana mite-biter, and half were headed
> by sister queens from unselected Italian bees.





> All the colonies received the same management throughout the course of the experiment and were not treated for V. d e s t r u ct o r control.


A single treatment free yard is a far cry from the claimed


> distributed to commercial beekeepers for stock evaluation


 and the insulation that the bees were cared for in standard comrical practices and had signicacnt higher survival and honey production then commercial bees 

either way the writer cerntianl didn't cross there T and dot there I and the editor failed to back check


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> A single treatment free yard is a far cry from the claimed and the insulation that the bees were cared for in standard comrical practices and had signicacnt higher survival and honey production then commercial bees...
> 
> ... either way the writer cerntianl didn't cross there T and dot there I and the editor failed to back check


No argument here- I do appreciate the input.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Next steps in the yard will include taking 48-hour mite drops near the Summer Solstice.


After further contemplation, I decided to revise my mite drop standard to 72 hours in an effort to attenuate the impact of daily variation. As such, the attached totals in yellow represent 72 hour drops whereas the remaining data represent historical 48 hour drops.

A few observations:

1. Mite drops are generally lower this year than last. Makes me wonder if there is some cyclical variation to mite build-up that corresponds to weather, foraging, etc.

2. Colony #1911 mite drop total of 125 is an outlier, and is reminiscent of the profile of colony #1910 last season. Similar to #1910 last year, colony #1911 has not swarmed, has built-up an epic bee population and has a commensurate spike in mite drop figures from March.

3. Based strictly on the mite drop figures, swarming certainly provides a good mite reset for both the resident and swarm colony.

The total process to conduct mite drop assays for 24 colonies took 5 hours from start-to-finish. 3 hours to clean and prep the trays and two hours to count and record the drops themselves.

In other news, SHB's have been little threat this year thus far. I am seeing scattered adult beetles and saw a total of 5 larvae in all the trays this week, so I am pleased to not have this additional worry to deal with at the moment.

I have a queenless swarm that I will shake out soon, and then I will finally be ready to turn my attention away from beekeeping for a month or two and toward the orchard, which is looking a bit worse for wear in my absence.


----------



## gww

Russ
Even with a late spring freeze, my trees have lots of fruit. Except apple though one tree has a few finally. Birds should be happy as there seem to be extra worms in them this year and I don't try and stop it. Getting lots of self pruning from the trees. One plum is ripening early it seems and I think it is due to pest. 
I take care of my trees like I do my bees. I still find on the few times I mow my grass that I can get a few for myself as a snack. I still find it exciting to get the little I do from them. Got some of them that have died and need replaced. My guess on the last pear tree is fire blight which seems to effect some of the pears every year.
Good report.
gww


----------



## AR1

gww said:


> Russ
> Even with a late spring freeze, my trees have lots of fruit. Except apple though one tree has a few finally. Birds should be happy as there seem to be extra worms in them this year and I don't try and stop it. Getting lots of self pruning from the trees. One plum is ripening early it seems and I think it is due to pest.
> I take care of my trees like I do my bees. I still find on the few times I mow my grass that I can get a few for myself as a snack. I still find it exciting to get the little I do from them. Got some of them that have died and need replaced. My guess on the last pear tree is fire blight which seems to effect some of the pears every year.
> Good report.
> gww


Even with the drought it looks like it's going to be a great year for fruit. Wild raspberries are ripe now and excellent. Mulberries are the most I have ever seen. Counted 70+ peaches on one tree and two new trees have one or two each. Grapes are loaded. Apples are the only thing that looks poor. The grapes are a commercial variety, everything else is wild or grown from seeds. Plum flowered but no fruit.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I take care of my trees like I do my bees.


Me too, GWW. I am afraid that I let them suffer from what Anne Black at Hidden Springs Nursery calls 'benign neglect'.



AR1 said:


> Counted 70+ peaches on one tree and two new trees have one or two each.


AR1- you are doing much better than me. I have exactly three (3) peaches developing at present.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Me too, GWW. I am afraid that I let them suffer from what Anne Black at Hidden Springs Nursery calls 'benign neglect'.
> 
> 
> 
> AR1- you are doing much better than me. I have exactly three (3) peaches developing at present.


Good and bad years. This year looks to be a good one.


----------



## AR1

One year, and one year only, that tree had so many peaches the branches were breaking. I had to prop them up with forked sticks. My neighbor took a bushel and made peach wine. Since then it has been a few at a time, this year is the most since that great year, about ten years ago.


----------



## gww

Except for apple, my trees are loaded. I usually have most luck with the stone fruits giving every year though it is very sporadic which years animals beat me to the bounty. In town my apples were more only a bounty year every 5 to 7 years. Out here in the woods, I have never had a bounty year of apple yet.

My grandma used to can plums but I have a different type then the red sour ones she used to use. I have really found no real use for them but a snack. I usually only get a pie or two out of the peaches before I get tired of the process and it takes a lot of my peaches to have enough for a pie.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Since then it has been a few at a time, this year is the most since that great year, about ten years ago.





gww said:


> Out here in the woods, I have never had a bounty year of apple yet.


This year, I am simply grateful that most of the trees that I planted last fall and this spring have survived, owing mostly I expect to the mild and protracted spring we enjoyed this year. Also, while working in the orchard I've found a single Asian pear along with a mulberry, so my yield has almost doubled since my last report 😎.

I expect my approach to the orchard has become one of hopeful pessimism. As the Roman poet Horace famously opined, _'A heart well prepared for adversity in bad times hopes, and in good times fears for a change in fortune.'_


----------



## Litsinger

I recently had the pleasure of finally reading Fedor Lazutin's_ 'Keeping Bees with a Smile'_.

While it does offer quite a lot in terms of his specific management techniques relative to 'natural beekeeping', the most endearing aspect of the book in my humble view are the philosophical pillars which undergirded his approach. A few thoughts that stuck-out to me:

_The behavior of any living creature, even the very smallest, is so complex and multifaced that no science can hope to explain it fully. After the most complicated studies, the only thing scientific learning has learned (forgive the tautology) is to describe the processes taking place in living tissues – but the question of what stands behind these processes remains unanswered. The only possible answer requires us to presume that everything that lives is intelligent._ (pp. 10 + 11)

_What do you think – why were human beings endowed with intelligence? To complicate our lives, or to simplify them? To create new problems by violating nature’s laws, or, by going with the natural flow of things, to achieve our goals simply and easily?_ (p. 123)

_The longer I work with bees, the more I am convinced that the most important aspect of the natural approach is knowing the laws that govern the life of a bee colony, as well as a thorough understanding of what the beekeeper does, and the effect his actions have on the bees. And the more understanding we gain, the less need there is for the actions themselves. That is, one might say that the number of actions is inversely proportional to the depth of our understanding._ (pp. 132 + 133)

Beyond this, it seems safe to say that his foundational principles to 'natural beekeeping' might be summarized as follows:

Keys to successful beekeeping (listed in order of priority):

Nectar resources
Locally-adapted genetics
Hive design and corresponding management
Natural beekeeping approach:

Minimal interference.
No feeding.
Treatment-free.
Propagate by swarming only.
Harvest surplus once per year- in the fall.


----------



## Litsinger

As it gets hotter and drier around here, the drones are having a little tougher go of it.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Keys to successful beekeeping (listed in order of priority):
> 
> Nectar resources
> Locally-adapted genetics
> Hive design and corresponding management
> Natural beekeeping approach:
> 
> Minimal interference.
> No feeding.
> Treatment-free.
> Propagate by swarming only.
> Harvest surplus once per year- in the fall.


I have read his book in the original format, as well as his many other on-line writings.

Lazutin had good-enough isolation to be able to practice his ideas.
Not to mention the idea of routine seasonal migration (the US-style) is unknown to him.
He is aware and does discuss the long distance/cross-region bee sales as not acceptable.

His own situational context formed many of his viewpoints - not entirely accurate outside of his own context. Not to mention some of his viewpoints are completely debunked (even I have such examples I can easily produce).

His book is a fun read, but hardly applicable as a general way forward for everyone.
Here is just one example where the out of context reading of this book does more harm than good (a quote from my emails; a case more common than not, as readers have difficulty with the situational context meaning)



> Yes, a hand's on mentor program would be nice. I've been reading a lot of books on bees lately, but I'm especially concerned about being able to over-winter bees successfully. I've paid for bees from Datant & Sons for 3 years now, and if I can't successfully over-winter my 2 hives this year, I'm probably going to give up. * I will admit that I haven't kept a close watch on my bees, I prefer to leave them alone most of the summer, per Fedor Lazutin's book, Keeping Bees with a Smile. (A vision and practice of natural apiculture).*
> I did wrap my hives with black roofing paper to keep them warm, before the cold weather hit us last year


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> His own situational context formed many of his viewpoints - not entirely accurate outside of his own context.


Good point, GregV. I think this is a truism that we all do well to remind ourselves of often.

One thing I appreciate about the Second Edition is that Dr. Sharashin offers frequent editorial comments regarding modifications to the approach relative to his experience in the Missouri Ozarks- his warning about expanding the hive volume too rapidly in the face of SHB pressure is one example.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> his warning about expanding the hive volume too rapidly in the face of SHB pressure is one example.


Indeed.
The SHB is another unknown for the Russian beekeepers and, thus, not a concern.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The SHB is another unknown for the Russian beekeepers and, thus, not a concern.


Similarly, we don't have to deal with 6 months of winter here in the Midsouth so prolonged flightless periods are unknown to us.


----------



## Litsinger

Things are quiet around here in the apiary. There is significant foraging and an abundance of pollen coming in- particularly in the morning but there is no more surplus nectar showing up in the supers. Most stationary beekeepers around here use the 4th of July as the unofficial date when they pull and extract their summer surplus.

It is interesting to look at the weight data from #2011 to see this year's flow characteristics. Starting in early April you see very little surplus stored back until the middle of April. Then at the end of April you can see where the colony issued a swarm and then another mid-May before making steady increase until the end of the Month which is where they remain.

Also saw something new today. I have a hive body that had previously been worked on by a wood bee. This hole has been in the hive body for two years and previously went about half-way through the width of the wall. This afternoon, I see bees emerging from this hole. Upon further inspection I discovered that the bees have completed the tunneling operation and have begun using it as a side entrance of sorts. So I plugged it with the best I could find at-hand- as my wife's uncle says, _"Poor folks have poor ways"_.

Happy Independence Day to one and all.


----------



## Litsinger

Great interview on the ‘Two Bees in a Podcast’ between Dr. Jamie Ellis and Ms. Amy Vu with the University of Florida Research and Extension Lab and Dr. Ralph Büchler, Director of Bee Research at the Kirchhain Bee Institute.

The first 12 1/2 minutes outline a biographical sketch of how Dr. Büchler found his way into bee research and some of his goals, aspirations and approaches to his efforts based on his life experiences.

Following, there is a very detailed outline of research in Suppressed Mite Reproduction (SMR), and at the 25 minute mark, Amy asks, _How do you select for SMR in your bee population?_

At the 30 minute mark, Dr. Ellis asks, _Where do you see all this heading?_

At the 32:35 minute mark, Dr. Ellis follows-up, _Do you feel that our defeat of varroa is eminent?_


----------



## Litsinger

Recently on Bee-L, there has been an interesting discussion about the potential role of colony learning in the development of resistance. In that discussion, someone suggested that Dr. Stephen Martin at the University of Salford was endeavoring to study this hypothesis.

While I haven't yet been able to run this research to ground yet, I did ironically stumble upon an update from Project Apis m relative to the Hilo breeding program while looking for research into colony learning (I assume due to the behavioral aspect):






While the whole video (largely narrated by Dr. Bob Danka) is good, the last bit starting at about the 6:00 mark is interesting and I think helpful for those trying to bridge the divide between success in a TF context in a stationary / hobbyist setting versus a migratory / commercial setting.

I also found it interesting to hear that the Baton Rouge lab remains the germplasm for the USDA's resistance breeding efforts despite the scale breeding efforts taking place in Hawaii.


----------



## gww

I must have not been paying attention or have a bad memory. Seems I missed a post or two of yours. Did you harvest any honey? 

As a side note: I leave most of the holes the bees make though the ones near the back of the hives get in the way of my inspections at times. When you move a box, it messes with the bees for a little bit and is interesting to watch. 

I would be interested in how much honey the bees use during the dirth since you are weighing. 

I always put forth the bees could learn with no proof and so it will be interesting to see what somebody studying finds. Be neat if they could ad to the study environmental factors the bees might learn by being in one environment with no movement. Like seeing if bees learn their own medicine if given the chance. Just rambling on.
Hope you are well, back to the guitar now.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Did you harvest any honey?


GWW:

My apologies for the delay in reply. It has been a bit wild and woolly at work of late.

I have not yet harvested any honey, partly as I am again experimenting with taking it off later in the season and partly because I do not yet have my new extractor due in large part to there being no equipment deliveries to apicultural shows in my area this year. Makes for a convenient excuse to procrastinate...



gww said:


> I would be interested in how much honey the bees use during the dirth since you are weighing.


That is an interesting study- I've attached a graph of the last 90 days of weight readings for #2011. On it you will see:

On April 29th, the colony weight was approximately 88#.

Immediately following the issuance of a prime swarm on April 30th, the weight dropped to approximately 78#.

Following a secondary swarm on May 13th, the weight dropped from approximately 80# to 76#.

Since that time, you can see a slow but steady growth of the colony weight which continues up to yesterday when the weight was approximately 95#.

It is interesting to me to see daily variations of up to 4#, and I have noted that this figure is impacted by temperature/humidity and presumably the collection and subsequent drying of nectar.

Currently it is stifling around here and to the best of my knowledge the two biggest foraging resources at the moment are sneezeweed and partridge pea.


----------



## gww

I do not have near the partridge pea though it is in bloom now. I still have never seen a bee on it. I have lots of dead nettle which I also don't currently see bees on. Still have small amounts of white clover in my yard that I do see a bee on once and a while. It is forecast for 98 degrees for the next two days..

Some bees are working hard.









And some not so hard.








Thanks for your answer.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Some bees are working hard.
> ...
> And some not so hard.


GWW:

Thank you for posting the photos- it looks like we are both experiencing high heat and humidity during these Dog Days of Summer.

Glad to read (if I understand correctly) that your bees with spotty brood performed well- was it simply a matter of the cells being laid up with eggs of different ages?

Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## gww

Russ
The spotty brood did not make excess honey but still have lots of bees. Go figure. I have no ideal but believe if they can not make excess honey that something may be wrong and will probably not get better. Hive looked too dry for the amount of bees and so probably all used on raising brood. They are still alive though and who knows for sure how it will go.

Got to thinking about the bees dyeing with honey in the hive under them last year and do wonder if I did not move comb around enough that lower was where the combs made for honey were in the hive and so not so good for brood. I have put them on other hives for supers and so will never check now. 

I will be interested in what will be in the supers come 1st of sept when I remove them for good. Hope not to find too much brood up in them though I bet I do. On the ones that do have brood, I will probably mess up their brood nest right before their last chance to forage. 

Either way, come sept, I am taking every thing above three boxes regardless of if full empty or having brood though I will move the brood down. Some will not have brood cause they did not before I took it last time but the ones that did have brood will probably still have it. Any thing in them that does not seem capped or dry enough I will let the bees rob out. Not that fair to the bees that actually made it but the easiest way for me to get a little of what might be there. Will know more in sept.

I am going to work more toward getting more like riverderwent and not ever move anything in the bottom three boxes and just add and then take from above that. That was not as possible when I had no drawn comb if I wanted to control swarming. If I got a big honey dome, it may not be possible now unless I don't worry if they swarm. 
Sorry if I have abused your thread.
Hope all is good for you.
Cheers
gww


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> Makes for a convenient excuse to procrastinate...


I'm with you Russ. Planning to pull this week if at all possible, ... unless I can convince me to wait a week. Stopped buying frames so I would have to extract and not just keep throwing more boxes on. They haven't really done a ton, weather turned and they lost a bit of weight. 

Also digging varroa out of drone brood in both my feral-ish colonies(2) and my Russians. I have a cabinet full of Api-everything and trying to keep my nerve, especially on a few experiments. Last year I dribbled around Thanksgiving and mid-Dec. I think they would survive until then as it's a ton more prevalent in drone brood, but I think they'd be healthier if I gave the mites a beat-down.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I do not have near the partridge pea though it is in bloom now. I still have never seen a bee on it.


GWW:

Thank you for your recent post. I do apologize for my delay in reply. I thought of your comment above this week when I had two private lands biologists from the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources out- they were assessing the overall success of the conservation cover and pollinator plantings we put out a few years ago.

Along the way in a wide-ranging discussion about bees (both are beekeepers), politics and life was a discussion about how hard it is for them to confidently recommend pollinator forage resources to plant due to the fact that something that might perform splendidly on one site in terms of nectar availability will not provide the same benefit on another site even one county over. They suspect it has everything to do with the soil and microclimate at one's particular location.



gww said:


> I am going to work more toward getting more like riverderwent and not ever move anything in the bottom three boxes and just add and then take from above that.


Thanks for the update on your progress and your plans. I've learned a lot from both you and Riverderwent and I think there is a lot to be said for mimicking his approach. The only thing I have tried to add to this approach is an effort to effect comb renewal- as it seems to me (at least anecdotally) that bees are generally healthier on newer comb.

Keep plugging away- it's hard to believe that we might have to start thinking about getting the fireplace ready to go in two months time.

Otherwise, the early goldenrod has just started blooming around here- but I don't ever see honey bees on it.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> ... unless I can convince me to wait a week.


Joe:

Enjoyed your post- and glad to read that I'm not the only one on here debating myself...



joebeewhisperer said:


> trying to keep my nerve, especially on a few experiments.


Given how good you have gotten at queen rearing and propagating bees, it seems to me (strictly from the outside looking in) that you are in a good position to try a few experiments- though I won't fault you if you elect to take the prudent route.

If you're livelihood isn't dependent on it and you haven't grown emotionally attached to your TF bees, I say give it a go.

That said- I try not to offer unsolicited advice but kind of felt that you were leaving the door open a crack for someone to tell you to go for it .

I hope your season is wrapping-up strong. The year around here has been unique for us in that we have not had a hard dearth so the bees are in good shape heading into Fall forage.


----------



## gww

Russ


> Otherwise, the early goldenrod has just started blooming around here- but I don't ever see honey bees on it.


I have never seen them work early but have seen them just killing the big late stuff. I always feel guilty when I bush hog big fields of it before deer season.
Cheers
gww


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> Given how good you have gotten at queen rearing and propagating bees, it seems to me (strictly from the outside looking in) that you are in a good position to try a few experiments- though I won't fault you if you elect to take the prudent route.
> 
> If you're livelihood isn't dependent on it and you haven't grown emotionally attached to your TF bees, I say give it a go.


I guess I should really go through and do some alcohol washes and start keeping some decent records. I bought the cup thingy last Jan, but so far digging varroa out of brood (or looking at blown-up pics for phoretic) has been the extent of testing. 

On queens, I finally got ahead of the demand and I'm deciding what to do with some beauties. Caught a few dark and tiger-striped from the mating nucs Fri as they were around 3 weeks and about to blow up the minis. So yes Russ, looking at it from that angle I have both extra equipment, and extra queens and a desire to know whether a race of bees can be bred to chew off mites, and keep down the viruses, .... for real, not marketing. 

My brother's bees are rocking along without treatment, fair growth, etc. They usually swarm twice and go down to small numbers, take 2 months to recover, but they do recover. I have his swarm (virgin queen) from April 25 and she is blowing up a double deep. Pulled a split from her 3 weeks ago and dropped a new queen of mine in just to see if she could turn around the mite issue. 

Apologies if that was all in my previous post. As far as $, my living is made elsewhere, although it has been satisfying being able to pay for bee stuff with bee stuff. God has blessed everything I've put my hand to, and I'm grateful. Life didn't always look this way, as pride came before several near-destructions. Again, grateful. 

I will need about 8-10 large colonies next spring to support a starter and 2-3 good finishers with a couple for a ton of drones and some room for error. Plan to expand to 100 mating nucs. I guess I could treat my "keepers" and let the rest go, but I wouldn't have time for analysis until Dec. I have around 30 now (1/3 10-frame multiple boxes, 1/3 Lyson double 6-frame polys, 1/3 EZ Nucs). Planning to purchase 10 more Lysons to move the EZ Nucs into. Always graft from untreated survivors.?.? Don't care at all about honey (other than giving away). Yeah Bro, I guess I am in a good place to experiment, just no plan, obviously. Thank you my friend.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> I have both extra equipment, and extra queens and a desire to know whether a race of bees can be bred to chew off mites, and keep down the viruses, .... for real, not marketing.





joebeewhisperer said:


> ... I guess I am in a good place to experiment, just no plan, obviously.


Joe:

Great post. I do apologize for my delay in reply. Things are blowing-up at work, and like you I try to approach these seasons from an attitude of gratitude... though oftentimes it is hard for me to consistently have a grateful mindset in the midst of the busyness.

While I don't know all the details of your operation, it seems reasonable to me that if you have extra resources on-hand and some inkling of where you might meet with some success in TF experimentation, that seems like a good place to start to me. At least in my mind, it wouldn't be necessary to have an airtight plan, as you are afforded the freedom to modify the plan as you go based on what you learn along the way, especially if you have a relatively large base of resources to draw from.



joebeewhisperer said:


> Always graft from untreated survivors.?.?


Now that's an interesting and loaded question (at least to my mind). In my decidedly narrow perspective formed from a collection of my own experience and what I have read, it seems to me that Apis mellifera thrives when afforded the opportunity to maintain genetic diversity. As such, it seems that the idea of grafting off untreated survivors is a reasonable approach provided that the genetic depth of the survivors is deep enough and is subsequently maintained through successive generations.

It was eye-opening to me to consider Dr. Kefuss' feedback that if he had it to do over again, he would have simultaneously selected for both resistance and tolerance- meaning have defined breeding objectives (i.e. untreated survival) but then keep the selection funnel sufficiently wide to not lose both the vitality that comes from genetic diversity and the other (possibly not so obvious) survival mechanisms which might be developing in parallel with your selection criterion.

Keep up the good work, and I will wait with baited breath to read what you decide to do.

Best of success to you as you work to close out the season.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> While I haven't yet been able to run this research to ground yet...


As I've read-into Dr. Martin's recent scholarship I found the research I expect is being referenced when talking about the prospect of honey bee learning relative to varroa-resistance.

In the March 2021 edition of _Journal of Apicultural Research_, Dr. Martin and research assistant Ms. Isobel Grindrod published a paper entitled, _‘Spatial distribution of recapping behaviour indicates clustering around Varroa infested cells’._

The key nugget I expect relative to individual learning (with emphasis mine) is:

_‘Exposure to Varroa may allow individual bees to learn to recognize the cues involved in infestation (Gronenberg et al., 2014). This could explain why Varroa naïve colonies and colonies with very low infestation levels had low levels of recapping until after substantial exposure to Varroa. Repeated exposure may increase the numbers of sensitive bees, enhance their sensitivity or lower the bees’ threshold of response to cells that carry cue traces (Masterman et al., 2001; Mondet et al., 2015). 

Indeed, the positive correlation between the recapping of infested cells and non-infested cells suggests that individuals in colonies that are more able to detect Varroa are also more likely to investigate non-infested cells. Experience dependent behavior like this has been observed in another eusocial insect species, the clonal ant Platythyrea punctata (Westhus et al.,2014). 

It may thus be worth exploring whether the environment can influence the behavior – for example, whether bees can become sensitized to (or learn) certain cue odors over time, priming them for recapping and brood removal.’_

Interesting hypothesis and an area that it looks like there is a lot of room for more research on the subject.

Dr. Martin also has a new paper that just dropped today. He sent me a copy and a corresponding YouTube video that I will share once I've had the chance to read and digest it.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> ...is a reasonable approach provided that the genetic depth of the survivors is deep enough and is subsequently maintained through successive generations.


And there in lies the rub, back to careful record keeping and analysis of data. I've had to examine my overall motives many times in this journey, and several times they've changed. Last year was super enjoyable and I nursed some small colonies into and through winter. This year I committed to learning queen rearing and along with some nuc and hive sales I'm probably in the black even rolling up startup costs to this year, depreciation, cost of goods sold, etc. I won't slow down to do that until closer to tax time. If you'd have told me last year that was possible I would have giggled a bit. The costs have been a one-way street until now. However, it went from enjoyable hobby to probably averaging 25hrs/week outside doing something bee related. I left my tech job today at noon to come home and work for $4/hr because this stuff has to be done on a schedule. lol - a bit off-topic but I tend to make 100 decisions then say, "How did I get here". Trying to move in meaningful directions with purpose and decide those purposes in advance. 


Litsinger said:


> ...survival mechanisms which might be developing in parallel with your selection criterion.
> 
> Keep up the good work, and I will wait with baited breath to read what you decide to do.


Again, without proper analysis I think I'd flail around and possibly breed out the traits we all look for, and wonder what happened. But running a small experiment where all that's lost are a few hives and maybe higher general viral loads, .... the hives I can afford, particularly if the losses are few. 

This afternoon I fed 30ish new queens (along with a few mated) in the incubator, then put about 20 more cells out of 2 hives into the incubator. Went through 6 large hives pulling a few honey frames to extract soon. Two were triple deeps and one had brood in the top so I grabbed off a quick split to place a newly mated queen in along with about a pound of nurse bees from another colony. Dropped a great-looking queen into my starter (after pulling last grafts) as I'm retiring that one. Then I bush-hogged a few lines in our field to make it easier to hunt down yellow jacket nests. Pulled one mini out of rotation as they absconded in the last few days. May have been robbed as I moved a feeding station close to them to get it away from my son's chickens. My belabored point is this is now a job and I'm both rethinking cutting down my numbers and at the same time thinking I could almost make this a paying gig. Somebody throw a glass of water in my face, .... this is too much work.  -- And now to your point, I planned to treat tonight if I was going to anytime soon. Can't even get through half the yard, so they'll have to make do for now. Take care Russ


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Again, without proper analysis I think I'd flail around and possibly breed out the traits we all look for, and wonder what happened. But running a small experiment where all that's lost are a few hives and maybe higher general viral loads, .... the hives I can afford, particularly if the losses are few.


Joe:

My apologies on the delay in reply. Sounds to me that you are asking the right questions.

Looking at it another way, if you have a few or several different lines you are working with, you could plan on doing a TF experiment with one or two colonies from each line and treat them like a 'black box'- if they survive (by whatever combination of mechanisms) they move on for further evaluation and possible propagation in the future. 

This beekeeping stuff is beguiling isn't it? In my mind it is kind of like cutting and splitting my own firewood- when people ask if it pencils out, I say no- but the physical and mental health benefits are significant and hard to quantify.

God bless you and your family, my friend.

Russ


----------



## gww

Russ


> This beekeeping stuff is beguiling isn't it? In my mind it is kind of like cutting and splitting my own firewood- when people ask if it pencils out, I say no- but the physical and mental health benefits are significant and hard to quantify.


Perfect in my mind. 
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Perfect in my mind.


Well, great minds think alike, don't they?


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> This beekeeping stuff is beguiling isn't it? In my mind it is kind of like cutting and splitting my own firewood- when people ask if it pencils out, I say no- but the physical and mental health benefits are significant and hard to quantify.


That last part should be on a t-shirt, ... for real. 

As for the beguiling part, sometimes I'm enamored with bees, sometimes I'm sick of them. This usually passes if I spend a few days away from them. Sometimes I truly grow tired of being schooled by something so small.

I visited Bob Binnie's store on Saturday and we talked a few minutes. I tried to respect his time and cut it short. At one point I said, "I totally don't know what I'm doing." to which he replied, "None of us do." - this brought me great comfort.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> "None of us do."


Thanks for the reply, Joe. Cool story.

Reminds me of the Socratic Paradox (from Plato quoting Socrates):

_"I am wiser than this man, for neither of us appears to know anything great and good; but he fancies he knows something, although he knows nothing; whereas I, as I do not know anything, so I do not fancy I do. In this trifling particular, then, I appear to be wiser than he, because I do not fancy I know what I do not know."_

The problem with this kind of thinking is that it might (at least in Socrates' case) lead to persecution:



https://philosophybreak.com/articles/socrates-and-the-socratic-paradox-i-know-that-i-know-nothing/



All that said, I am reminded of another ancient text:

Proverbs 9:1-11: Wisdom has built her house, She has hewn out her seven pillars; She has prepared her food, she has mixed her wine; She has also set her table; She has sent out her maidens, she calls From the tops of the heights of the city: _"Whoever is naive, let him turn in here!" _To him who lacks understanding she says, _"Come, eat of my food And drink of the wine I have mixed. "Forsake your folly and live, And proceed in the way of understanding."_ He who corrects a scoffer gets dishonor for himself, And he who reproves a wicked man gets insults for himself. Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you, Reprove a wise man and he will love you. Give instruction to a wise man and he will be still wiser, Teach a righteous man and he will increase his learning. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. For by me your days will be multiplied, And years of life will be added to you.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Dr. Martin also has a new paper that just dropped today. He sent me a copy and a corresponding YouTube video that I will share once I've had the chance to read and digest it.


In their recently published, _Parallel evolution of Varroa resistance in honey bees: a common mechanism across continents?_ paper, Ms. Isobel Grindrod and Dr. Stephen Martin utilize data analysis of 60 research papers published over the past 40 years exploring EHB survival in the face of varroa pressure across the globe in an attempt to find a unifying link in all resistant populations.

For the purposes of the paper, they defined ‘resistant’ as, … _the ability of a population to survive long term without any treatment for Varroa within a given environment. Thus, we do not view resistance as a fixed trait but the product of adaptive traits and adaptation to the local environment. _

Based on the write-up, it appears that the 2018 research by Oddie et all entitled, _Rapid parallel evolution overcomes global honey bee parasite_ serves as the cornerstone for the current study.

They concluded that resistant populations tend to have three traits in common, high rates of:

Removal of Mite-Infested Brood
Recapping
Mite Infertility
_Independently, each Varroa-resistant honeybee population previously studied across seven countries has developed the same traits to control the mite. These are: (i) brood removal, in which Varroa-infested pupae are removed; (ii) recapping, where holes are created allowing direct access to the pupa and then resealed; and (iii) mite infertility, where female mites are unable to produce viable (mated) female offspring._

_Data from mite-infestation experiments from 403 colonies (86 data points) across 10 studies conducted in seven countries demonstrate that resistant colonies are significantly (U = 341.5, p < 0.0001) better at removing mite-infested brood than susceptible colonies (38% versus 22%) (figure 1b)._
_We collected data from 163 colonies from five studies that took place across seven countries (figure 1c). This showed that in resistant colonies significantly more infested cells are recapped than in susceptible colonies (55% versus 33%) (U = 1280, p < 0.00001)._
_Data from 786 colonies (99 data points) across 40 studies in 14 countries showed that resistant populations had significantly (U = 28, p < 0.0001) greater proportions of infertile mites than susceptible colonies (45% versus 17%) (figure 1e)._
They further suggest that this resistance is supported by a suite of traits rather than a singular expression:

_The framework suggests that resistance is a sequence of events that generate the key traits (increased recapping, brood removal and mite infertility) rather than a single trait.
Similarly, other traits such as brood suppression of mite reproduction, or DWV tolerance may complement those within the framework. There is also likely to be a mite element to resistance which could be illuminated by further studies into the coevolution of A. mellifera and Varroa. _

And finally, they offer this tidbit which is interesting and thought provoking:

_As resistance is a population level trait rather than a single colony trait, a resistant colony becomes vulnerable if moved out of its population and could collapse if a sudden influx of mites occurs due to excessive (40–60%) brood removal. This may explain why resistant colonies moved out of their population typically do not survive. _

*



*


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> In their recently published, _Parallel evolution of Varroa resistance in honey bees: a common mechanism across continents?_ paper, Ms. Isobel Grindrod and Dr. Stephen Martin utilize data analysis of 60 research papers published over the past 40 years exploring EHB survival in the face of varroa pressure across the globe in an attempt to find a unifying link in all resistant populations.
> 
> For the purposes of the paper, they defined ‘resistant’ as, … _the ability of a population to survive long term without any treatment for Varroa within a given environment. Thus, we do not view resistance as a fixed trait but the product of adaptive traits and adaptation to the local environment. _
> 
> Based on the write-up, it appears that the 2018 research by Oddie et all entitled, _Rapid parallel evolution overcomes global honey bee parasite_ serves as the cornerstone for the current study.
> 
> They concluded that resistant populations tend to have three traits in common, high rates of:
> 
> Removal of Mite-Infested Brood
> Recapping
> Mite Infertility
> _Independently, each Varroa-resistant honeybee population previously studied across seven countries has developed the same traits to control the mite. These are: (i) brood removal, in which Varroa-infested pupae are removed; (ii) recapping, where holes are created allowing direct access to the pupa and then resealed; and (iii) mite infertility, where female mites are unable to produce viable (mated) female offspring._
> 
> _Data from mite-infestation experiments from 403 colonies (86 data points) across 10 studies conducted in seven countries demonstrate that resistant colonies are significantly (U = 341.5, p < 0.0001) better at removing mite-infested brood than susceptible colonies (38% versus 22%) (figure 1b)._
> _We collected data from 163 colonies from five studies that took place across seven countries (figure 1c). This showed that in resistant colonies significantly more infested cells are recapped than in susceptible colonies (55% versus 33%) (U = 1280, p < 0.00001)._
> _Data from 786 colonies (99 data points) across 40 studies in 14 countries showed that resistant populations had significantly (U = 28, p < 0.0001) greater proportions of infertile mites than susceptible colonies (45% versus 17%) (figure 1e)._
> They further suggest that this resistance is supported by a suite of traits rather than a singular expression:
> 
> _The framework suggests that resistance is a sequence of events that generate the key traits (increased recapping, brood removal and mite infertility) rather than a single trait.
> Similarly, other traits such as brood suppression of mite reproduction, or DWV tolerance may complement those within the framework. There is also likely to be a mite element to resistance which could be illuminated by further studies into the coevolution of A. mellifera and Varroa. _
> 
> And finally, they offer this tidbit which is interesting and thought provoking:
> 
> _As resistance is a population level trait rather than a single colony trait, a resistant colony becomes vulnerable if moved out of its population and could collapse if a sudden influx of mites occurs due to excessive (40–60%) brood removal. This may explain why resistant colonies moved out of their population typically do not survive. _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *


Whenever I see a video like this I think of the poor graduate students who has to do all the fiddly, boring work, and I hope they at least get their names listed as co-authors on the final papers.

My daughter is currently working on a project for a professor. He has essentially bribed her into doing the boring parts by promising to include her as a co-author.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> He has essentially bribed her into doing the boring parts by promising to include her as a co-author.


Glad to read that she will be included in the authorship. This will hopefully set her up for future publishing if she so desires. As I understand it, getting published in academia is fairly difficult unless you have either; a supportive institution and/or project lead or; the willingness to self-fund the publication.


----------



## Litsinger

Great video up yesterday from the University of Guelph outlining Part 1 of a 3-part series exploring their efforts to breed for low varroa growth (LVG):






Dr. Ernesto Guzman summarizes the project goals as follows:

1. Develop a honey bee population that demonstrates resistance via LVG.
2. Test the population in the field and transfer the selection protocol to beekeepers.
3. Pinpoint the genes that contribute to resistance.

Video 2 will be Dr. Berna Emsen, Ataturk University, Turkey outlining the project results (summarized here).

Video 3 will be Les Eccles, Ontario Beekeepers’ Association Technology Transfer Program outlining the planned implementation.


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## gww

Russ
I love their video selection and must say that they must really have nice bees or the main communicator is really tough. Mostly, I like him cause he is smart enough to sit on something while working bees. My motto has always been, why stand when you can sit and why sit when you can recline.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> My motto has always been, why stand when you can sit and why sit when you can recline.


GWW:

I concur that Paul Kelly is a good communicator and excellent beekeeper- and the production aspect of their videos makes them enjoyable to watch.

As I've said before, I appreciate your self-deprecating sense of humor. Beekeepers can be accused of many things, but rarely is lazy on that list...

Have a great week.

Russ


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## Litsinger

I always enjoy getting to see the wide variety of pollinators that become conspicuous during the fall blooms.

It has been a charmed year here in Western Kentucky- no real hard dearth and starting to see the first signs of fall surplus gathering now. The early goldenrods, boneset, Joe Pye Weed, ironweed and mistflower are blooming now and the crownbeard, thoroughwort and later goldenrods are around the corner.

Have a great week.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I always enjoy getting to see the wide variety of pollinators that become conspicuous during the fall blooms.


I too have to say that a brief early August dearth (if there was one) is, pretty much, no more.
The late summer bloom is massive as usually around her; there should be enough moisture as well to support it.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> ... there should be enough moisture as well to support it.


Thanks, GregV. At least locally, it seems that the combination of a protracted spring and timely rains throughout the summer has provided a boon to nectar availability. It's been fun to watch the season unfold... 

But I am also mindful of the poor folks just to the south of me in West Tennessee. While we received 2 inches of rain the other night which was a welcome gift, some folks received over 15 inches from the same storm front with tragic consequences.

Best of success to you here in the home stretch. How has the propagation of your survivor-stock queen gone?


----------



## gww

Russ
Be interesting to see what your weighed hive says in two weeks.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Video 2 will be Dr. Berna Emsen, Ataturk University, Turkey outlining the project results (summarized here).


Video 2 is out today. Dr. Emsen outlines the approach and results of the first two years of the study and outlines the plans for the third year (rinse-and-repeat).

One interesting tidbit is that Paul Kelly indicates that the genetics which demonstrated increased resistance also tended to be more defensive- and that they intend to explore this aspect further.

p.s. Check out the conversation piece hive in the background- I count 17 hive bodies.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Best of success to you here in the home stretch. How has the propagation of your survivor-stock queen gone?


As usually with me, I rebounded from a near complete loss.
I always do.
Like per-annually.
LOL

Pretty soon I should report the status, I suppose - to keep my readers interested.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Be interesting to see what your weighed hive says in two weeks.


I agree. The only limiting factor at this point is that this colony is two 10-frame medium boxes. There is likely only so much more that they can store away, and I haven't any other 10-frame equipment at my disposal...


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Pretty soon I should report the status, I suppose - to keep my readers interested.


Count me in as one of those!


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Video 3 will be Les Eccles, Ontario Beekeepers’ Association Technology Transfer Program outlining the planned implementation.


The third video in the LVG Breeding Program is now up. A few observations I found interesting:

1. Throughout the video Les stresses the importance of working together with other beekeepers in the local area to collaboratively breed for resistance. He remarks offhand that one needs at least 100 colonies to have enough genetic material to execute a meaningful breeding program.

2. At about the 3:40 mark, he and Paul discuss the distinction of their breeding protocol versus that of survival testing.

3. Les outlines the importance of consistency in management as a key component to any breeding program- while it is not explicitly addressed, I could imagine this might be one of the more significant hurdles of an association-scale breeding program.

4. At about the 8:50 mark, Les describes some breeding principles for multi-factorial trait selection. He introduces the idea of 'pre-selection'.


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## Litsinger

Summer continues to race to a close down here in the 'hot corner' of Kentucky.

Currently the main blooms on the farm are mistflower, thoroughwort, swamp marigold and purple false foxglove.

The snakeroot has just started blooming, the late goldenrod won't be long now, and the frost asters are still a ways out.

Drones have been more conspicuous of late, and I found a single Nodding Ladies' Tresses orchid in the woods the other day.

There has been such a wealth and variety of pollinators to observe this season- it has been a real treat. I expect if someone could train bumble bees to live in a large colony like honey bees, there would be no end to the surplus nectar one could gather.


----------



## Litsinger

Fascinating research from earlier this year (this is the theme issue of a 16-part series published in the journal _Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B_):

How does epigenetics influence the course of evolution?

They first define epigenetics as _... the study of changes in gene activity that can be transmitted through cell divisions but cannot be explained by changes in the DNA sequence._

The implications of this idea is that there are adaptive changes and behaviors that might develop in a given population that are not necessarily governed strictly by genetics (at least as we classically understand them).

While much of it is over my head, one of the main takeaways for me relates to the development of phenotypic plasticity in the face of a novel threat (i.e. varroa):

_First, there must be a significant environmental change that causes a significant plastic response in the average phenotype of a population. The changed phenotype is called a ‘phenotypic accommodation' and is independent of any genetic change. If the phenotypic accommodation becomes widespread and is maintained over generations because of a permanent change in the environment, then ‘genetic accommodation' can ensue, which may involve changed allele frequencies and/or adjustments to gene regulatory networks._

Thus the idea is that at least in some circumstances, there might be a phenotypic change that occurs in a given population in response to a new challenge that will subsequently be reflected in the genetic signature rather than the other way round.


----------



## Litsinger

When researching Dr. Kefuss last year I came across this two-part ABJ paper from last year by M.E.A. McNeil entitled _'Questing for the Wonder Bee'_. In my humble opinion it is a good treatment of the progress of modern bee breeding, starting with luminaries like Brother Adam, Harry Laidlaw, Jr. and O.W. Park and ending with an extended discussion of the Hilo breeding program. Well worth the read when you have time.

p.s. Our own Juhani Lunden makes a cameo in part I.


----------



## AR1

I missed seeing Julani, didn't spend any time looking at the people pics. 

Good reads though. They say the USDA has bees that don't need any treatments, I believe they said no treatments for 12 years.

'...We keep colonies [at the
USDA lab] without any chemicals
and do pretty well...'


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I believe they said no treatments for 12 years.


AR1: I took note of that too- amazingly it is over 25 years with no treatments.

Here's the photo and caption of Juhani receiving his hard-earned cent for the mite he found during his visit to Dr. Kefuss.


----------



## crofter

I seem to remember that Juhani once spoke something to the affect of it taking about taking 10 years to achieve a level of resistance but suspected it might take as long again to get his honey production back! 
Presently with the main commercial driving force being either high rate of reproduction and or high honey production, as long as mites can be handled with the existing treatments there is not the will to give up much in order to gain mite resistance.


----------



## Litsinger

crofter said:


> Presently with the main commercial driving force being either high rate of reproduction and or high honey production, as long as mites can be handled with the existing treatments there is not the will to give up much in order to gain mite resistance.


Frank:

Thank you for your feedback. Good points. Part II of the article spills a good bit of ink on this reality- two of the more salient thoughts IMHO include:

_Pause here to consider. For queen producers, it’s a seller’s market, so the motivation for the painstaking and expensive task of breeding new stock is not financial. The isolation required to restrict drones leaves out many. Although beekeepers know that mite-resistant bees would be valuable and eschew using chemicals, their livelihoods can make them risk averse: In short, they know amitraz works. They think, Danka said, “until I’m certain that some goofball breeding program in Louisiana is producing bees that work, I’m skeptical. Fair enough. And I’m not sure we’re going to change that paradigm very easily while amitraz still works. Why would you spend a lot of money, effort, tears and sweat to do this breeding when the demand is just not there?”

Now that the VSH queens have become a source of income, he (David Thomas- Hawaii Island Honey Company) wants to expand their distribution. His partners take a different view. “Bob and I are very cautious,” said Downey. “We don’t want a false start. We don’t want to release material that is not up to our standards, because VSH has been set back so many times already.” Danka said, “The bees are more variable than I would like.” The goal is to get beyond treating, but Thomas still needs to treat his hives. Another variable is honey production. In some trials, the Hilo bees produced 15 to 20 percent less honey. “There are a lot of people that believe there is a necessary trade-off with mite resistance,” said Downey. “I don’t necessarily believe that. The ones that are as productive are not uncommon. It’s just that right now we have a pretty noisy field of the selected bees. Which makes sense because it’s a very young selection. What we are comparing to has been selected for hundreds of years.”_


----------



## Litsinger

Another video up from the UoG concerning the ORHBS Program and the LVG Breeding Program:






At about the 9:00 mark Mr. Les Eccles discusses some specifics of how the breeding program has been implemented among the some 25 participating breeders and outlines the importance of working together on a regional scale to improve stock. He also briefly discusses the formalized breeding goals, which are identified in the attached screenshot and further detailed at the link below:






Ontario Resistant Honey Bee Selection Program | Ontario Beekeepers’ Association


Information on the current Honey Bee Breeders that participated in the Ontario Mite & Disease Resistant Honey Bee Breeding Program.




www.ontariobee.com


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Frank:
> 
> Thank you for your feedback. Good points. Part II of the article spills a good bit of ink on this reality- two of the more salient thoughts IMHO include:
> 
> _Pause here to consider. For queen producers, it’s a seller’s market, so the motivation for the painstaking and expensive task of breeding new stock is not financial. The isolation required to restrict drones leaves out many. Although beekeepers know that mite-resistant bees would be valuable and eschew using chemicals, their livelihoods can make them risk averse: In short, they know amitraz works. They think, Danka said, “until I’m certain that some goofball breeding program in Louisiana is producing bees that work, I’m skeptical. Fair enough. And I’m not sure we’re going to change that paradigm very easily while amitraz still works. Why would you spend a lot of money, effort, tears and sweat to do this breeding when the demand is just not there?”
> 
> Now that the VSH queens have become a source of income, he (David Thomas- Hawaii Island Honey Company) wants to expand their distribution. His partners take a different view. “Bob and I are very cautious,” said Downey. “We don’t want a false start. We don’t want to release material that is not up to our standards, because VSH has been set back so many times already.” Danka said, “The bees are more variable than I would like.” The goal is to get beyond treating, but Thomas still needs to treat his hives. Another variable is honey production. In some trials, the Hilo bees produced 15 to 20 percent less honey. “There are a lot of people that believe there is a necessary trade-off with mite resistance,” said Downey. “I don’t necessarily believe that. The ones that are as productive are not uncommon. It’s just that right now we have a pretty noisy field of the selected bees. Which makes sense because it’s a very young selection. What we are comparing to has been selected for hundreds of years.”_


On the website they claim their bees will make you money, via greater queen and colony survival in spite of lower honey production.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> On the website they claim their bees will make you money, via greater queen and colony survival in spite of lower honey production.


I will argue this claim is not to be taken at a face value.
They should really be honest about it - tossing such claims about.

For example, I am working with a line of VSH the second season now.
One may notice that the VSH queen will be poor queens in general productivity sense.
They will survive and that's where it will stand - at very low to zero to negative honey production (my lone VSH survivor has negative honey productivity - that simple).

Case by case, of course.
I have open-mated VSH daughters this season that are already very different within the batch.
But the varroa-resistance comes at cost - especially so in a highly varroa-infested location.

PS: MSL has been saying the same all along; I am just practically observing and confirming the same too.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Case by case, of course.


I think this is a key takeaway for any resistance-breeding effort. One has to understand and then subsequently work in concert with both their local genetic environment and the reproductive biology of the honey bee itself- recognizing that what works (or doesn't) in one setting or management style may not comport similar results in another context defined by myriad variables.

From the article:

_By the time Harbo retired in 2005, though, the promise of the program had started to unravel. It had been thought the hard-won trait would be maintained by the beekeepers buying the stock from Glenn. “It seemed like a good idea at the time,” said Danka. Not only was the required scientific rigor too much, subsequent generations of the bees were open mated. “People were saying, ‘Oh, I got some of these bees with VSH, and they’re not so resistant.’” Bees in general and particularly honey bees have exceedingly high recombination rates, which is to say that their genes are recombined with every mating. An individual queen, then, is like a frame in a genetic movie. “Let’s face it,” Danka said, “Looking at it in hindsight, these guys are not going to sit with the microscope evaluating a couple thousand cells of brood to tell whether or not mites are reproducing. It was just fantasy to think that.”_


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> I will argue this claim is not to be taken at a face value.


Well, they are trying to sell queens. 
HILO BEES - Hilo Bees


----------



## Litsinger

Still sitting at 39 colonies and an approaching cold front has us preparing for our first taste of fall weather- just in time.

The bees are currently busy doing a lot of foraging but it is not translating into too much excess in the hives (at least as reflected in the 'Reference Hive'). The goldenrod and snakeroot are in full bloom and the frost asters are just now getting going.

I found the first woolly bear of the season, and he agrees with the Farmer's Almanac- cold winter.

Completed the 72-hour mite drop counts for the 24 hives that have screened bottom boards (attached). A few observations (o.k. speculations) based on the data to-date:

Swarms have a demonstrative effect on the mite count of both the founder and swarm colony (surprising, I know ). Two of the hives with higher mite counts (#1803 and #1911) I am almost certain did not swarm this season. Swarming (as proffered by Dr. Seeley) may be an indispensable component of my TF beekeeping, and may suggest at least one possibility for why there seems to be so many anecdotes of folks with initial TF success who run into trouble- the better beekeeper you are, the worse you are at TF (said firmly tongue-in-cheek ).

#1911 has been the 'class of the apiary' this season and is still loaded with bees. It is reminiscent of #1910 which was a colossal unit last year that had high mite loads all summer and then failed late in the winter. I will continue to evaluate what sort of trends emerge, but the data may suggest that more modest hive volumes, allowing swarming and commensurately modest surplus gathering may be the balance that must be struck to continue to be reasonably successful in a TF context (in my setting).

Hives that do a reasonable job at managing mites likely 'self-propagate' when left to their own devices. Colonies #1907 and #1912 have demonstrated consistently low mite drops and have also consistently issued swarms despite my diligent (though not heroic) efforts. Both colonies issued at least two swarms this season that I have hived.

There does seem to be some interesting 'familial resemblances' emerging- I have color-coded colonies that I know are from the same line. The key difference being the 1911 > 2003 > 2103 line which seems to suggest a progressive worsening of the parent stock with each generation.

All that said, I have not seen one bee with outward signs of DWV nor any crawlers- while subjective it is telling to me that the past two seasons have progressed with no obvious manifestations of DWV- this might also be a clue to survival to-date.

Saw what I believe is a 'book scorpion' in the tray of #1912. I have followed Torben Schiffer's research on this subject with great interest, but never really expected to find them in any of my colonies.

Finally, observed a big green caterpillar hanging from a handhold on colony #2016 early last week. I was pleasantly surprised to watch it develop into a chrysalis- now to wait and see what kind of butterfly emerges!


----------



## gww

Good report and glad you put your thoughts in it.
Cheers
gww


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Still sitting at 39 colonies and an approaching cold front has us preparing for our first taste of fall weather- just in time.
> 
> The bees are currently busy doing a lot of foraging but it is not translating into too much excess in the hives (at least as reflected in the 'Reference Hive'). The goldenrod and snakeroot are in full bloom and the frost asters are just now getting going.
> 
> I found the first woolly bear of the season, and he agrees with the Farmer's Almanac- cold winter.
> 
> Completed the 72-hour mite drop counts for the 24 hives that have screened bottom boards (attached). A few observations (o.k. speculations) based on the data to-date:
> 
> Swarms have a demonstrative effect on the mite count of both the founder and swarm colony (surprising, I know ). Two of the hives with higher mite counts (#1803 and #1911) I am almost certain did not swarm this season. Swarming (as proffered by Dr. Seeley) may be an indispensable component of my TF beekeeping, and may suggest at least one possibility for why there seems to be so many anecdotes of folks with initial TF success who run into trouble- the better beekeeper you are, the worse you are at TF (said firmly tongue-in-cheek ).
> 
> #1911 has been the 'class of the apiary' this season and is still loaded with bees. It is reminiscent of #1910 which was a colossal unit last year that had high mite loads all summer and then failed late in the winter. I will continue to evaluate what sort of trends emerge, but the data may suggest that more modest hive volumes, allowing swarming and commensurately modest surplus gathering may be the balance that must be struck to continue to be reasonably successful in a TF context (in my setting).
> 
> Hives that do a reasonable job at managing mites likely 'self-propagate' when left to their own devices. Colonies #1907 and #1912 have demonstrated consistently low mite drops and have also consistently issued swarms despite my diligent (though not heroic) efforts. Both colonies issued at least two swarms this season that I have hived.
> 
> There does seem to be some interesting 'familial resemblances' emerging- I have color-coded colonies that I know are from the same line. The key difference being the 1911 > 2003 > 2103 line which seems to suggest a progressive worsening of the parent stock with each generation.
> 
> All that said, I have not seen one bee with outward signs of DWV nor any crawlers- while subjective it is telling to me that the past two seasons have progressed with no obvious manifestations of DWV- this might also be a clue to survival to-date.
> 
> Saw what I believe is a 'book scorpion' in the tray of #1912. I have followed Torben Schiffer's research on this subject with great interest, but never really expected to find them in any of my colonies.
> 
> Finally, observed a big green caterpillar hanging from a handhold on colony #2016 early last week. I was pleasantly surprised to watch it develop into a chrysalis- now to wait and see what kind of butterfly emerges!


good over view Russ,

we have a lot of similarities,
I am at 40 hives now.
I set a trap 100 yards out back behind my home hives (15) and caught 3 swarms, I may be less heroic next year and let it happen, these 3 made D+D+M and gave a super of honey. Shifting toward 8F as they are easier to handle.
I also have one line did great in 18 ok in 19 barley made the winter in 20 now I see it has DWV, considering shaking it in a tub of soap water, as I will terminate the line any way.
Been making the Palmer side by side NUCs have 4 of them (8 NUCs) going into winter this year, 2 are weak if I get 6 I am a happy camper. if I get the 6 next year, I'll try 12 NUCs and sell them in the spring. I am finding the honey work less and less appealing each season.

did have the same observation the mite free strong hives all seemed to want to swarm, I did catch 1/2 of them with capped cells and made 18 swarm control splits. The offspring is getting quite varied.  one of my dark Russian lines had 2 daughters this year that were blond, so someone in the hood has some lighter (yellow) bees.

Be interesting to see what winter does, I am hoping for 25% or less dead outs, best 10 will get splits made and the middle 20 go into production. with 20 production , I will have some supers to build, so the winter schedule is already building.

hope your hives winter well

GG


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## crofter

GG; are you by any chance weighing your side by side double 4 frame setups?


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## Gray Goose

crofter said:


> GG; are you by any chance weighing your side by side double 4 frame setups?


Am not weighting.
they are D+D+M, I like the medium full and the top Deep 1/2
so I guess by size 1/2 honey.

if you weight them they have more wood so I would think a bit more than the comparable 10F would be a good starting point.

GG


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> The key difference being the 1911 > 2003 > 2103 line which seems to suggest a progressive worsening of the parent stock with each generation.


Dilution - due to the significant outside inputs.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Be interesting to see what winter does, I am hoping for 25% or less dead outs, best 10 will get splits made and the middle 20 go into production.


Good update, GG. I appreciate you sharing your observations. Based on your feedback did you ultimately decide to eschew treatments again this year?

Also, I'll look forward to the next installment of the 'Bee Wall'. How's that project coming along?


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Dilution - due to the significant outside inputs.


Quite possible, GregV. While it is a decidedly small sample size, it is interesting to observe how the other lines have tacked fairly closely with each other in terms of mite drops- thus making the 1911 > 2003 > 2103 line an exception.

To be certain, I feel that I am only just now far enough down the road in this experiment to begin easing out on a limb to try to predict where things might go, or what management decisions might confer particular outcomes. Still a lot of moving parts.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Quite possible, GregV. While it is a decidedly small sample size, it is interesting to observe how the other lines have tacked fairly closely with each other in terms of mite drops- thus making the 1911 > 2003 > 2103 line an exception.
> 
> To be certain, I feel that I am only just now far enough down the road in this experiment to begin easing out on a limb to try to predict where things might go, or what management decisions might confer particular outcomes. Still a lot of moving parts.


OK, yes - remains to be seen.
Russ, I forget - are you in a feral bee country?
I have an impression that you are.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> ... are you in a feral bee country?


Like most, I'd like to think I am...


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Like most, I'd like to think I am...


Maybe you are.
Every year you get to the spring side with very little losses is a good indicator.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Good update, GG. I appreciate you sharing your observations. Based on your feedback did you ultimately decide to eschew treatments again this year?
> 
> Also, I'll look forward to the next installment of the 'Bee Wall'. How's that project coming along?


lost a month due to COVID related family matters. The bee wall is still in process, but will not have bees this year. I am still hoping to get the wall prepped this fall before the snow keeps me out of the property.
I did get 6 splits into the double wall hives which for all practical purposes are the same wall thickness as the cupboard type, access and mounting is the main difference.

I did treat with OAV, I noticed the NUCs I picked up had some DWV. also the one swarm was suspect, not wanting to affect the whole Apairy, I did a 4 round base of OAV, hoping the ones that perish are really the least VHS and the strong ones are the more resistant, so like "really soft bond". I do see 1 shrinking already, been thinking of shaking it in a tub of soap water, but it will be done in by turkey day IMO.

wrapping up honey , then the winter preps, then wait till spring.

GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> wrapping up honey , then the winter preps, then wait till spring.


Glad to hear that the 'Bee Wall' progresses, and I will be interested to see it come to life.

Sounds like you've got some stock that is at least putting up a good fight against varroa, so that might represent a good foundation for your future bee empire.

If recent trends hold, we've got about 6 weeks to go down here before the first killing frost. 

Need to find some time between now and then to get back into the colonies one more time.

I am looking forward to firing the woodstove back up, and getting to some of the projects that have to wait for cooler weather.


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## Litsinger

This afternoon, I received an e-mail from Betterbee advertising Lyson's sponsorship of the BEECOME 2021 virtual conference on November 20th - 21st: The European Beekeeping Congress BEECOME 2021 ONLINE

I am particularly interested in the following lectures:

_Results of the European-wide Genotype-Environment interaction Experiment_- Dr. Fani Hatjina

_Is it possible to breed bees with varroa resistance traits?_- Dr. Małgorzata Bieńkowska

_The case of organic beekeeping in Poland and its future prospects_- Dr. Dariusz Gerula


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## sparkyApis

Russ, wonder if you have seen this one on the use of fungal extracts on bee viruses? I have not spent a lot of time on it but first impressions are that it is in the interesting but possibly dodgy group.
Extracts of Polypore Mushroom Mycelia Reduce Viruses in Honey Bees - Scientific Reports
Sel.


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## Litsinger

sparkyApis said:


> Russ, wonder if you have seen this one on the use of fungal extracts on bee viruses?


Sel:

My sincerest apologies on the delay in reply. Work has been crazy of late, so it has been difficult to find the time to sit down and read this paper (which I had not yet seen- thank you for sharing).

It did not surprise me at all to see that Mr. Paul Stamets was involved in this research- he is something of a legend in the world of mycology, along with Tradd Cotter. I first became aware of the burgeoning field of using fungi to counteract disease when starting my fruit orchard, where the idea of inoculating bareroot tree roots with mycorrhizae is fairly mainstream at this point.

From there, I have been amazed at the seemingly endless discoveries of using fungi to assist with things as diverse as cleaning up oil spills, as antidepressants, as antagonists for various diseases including cancer and myriad other purposes.

So it really didn't surprise me to read that mycorrhizae was found to be effective at reducing viral load in honey bees. The part of the research that I found most fascinating (and curious) was the following:

_Honey bees have been observed foraging directly on mycelium growing in outdoor beds, leading to speculation that they may be procuring a nutritional or medicinal gain. This behaviour may represent a novel facet of social immunity, given that a growing body of evidence indicates that honey bees self-medicate using plant-derived substances._

While the three references to Dr. Spivak's research on propolis were familiar to me, this paper was not:

*The immunological dependence of plant-feeding animals on their host’s medical properties may explain part of honey bee colony losses*

And while it appears to be unfortunately locked behind a paywall, this is from the abstract:

_Here, the question of honey bee self-medication using organic materials, namely propolis, nectar, honey, honeydew, pollen, wood, and algae for self-medication is addressed. Self-medication in honey bees is a largely unexplored area and thus a comprehensive overview of the field is provided. Prior studies suggest that recent honey bee colony declines are driven by decreased forage plant availability. The problem is expanded and it is suggested, that if honey bees developed a dependence on medical properties of some disappearing plants or materials, this could explain a part of the colony losses observed around the world. To date, convincing evidence points towards self-medication with honey and propolis. Bees also contact plant secondary metabolites, fatty acids, essential oils, and microorganisms that are active against the causative agents of American foulbrood, European foulbrood, nosemosis, chalkbrood, stonebrood, and varroasis. In the future, selected taxa of plants with medicinal properties may be planted to boost honey bee health without chemotherapy. Future directions of research are discussed._

Kind of reminded me of the old adage, _'You are what you eat.'_

Thanks again for sharing- I enjoyed the read, and I wonder if your swarm traps are seeing any action yet?


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## sparkyApis

Litsinger said:


> My sincerest apologies on the delay in reply.


Thank you for your courtesy but really, not required. I'm certainly not checking the forums every few minutes to see if there is something to attend to. To my mind, being able to drop something here for when someone has the time to get around to it is a real advantage.

That paper on bee self medication is intrigueing (sp?) I suppose it is to be expected that an organism which gathers resources from such a wide area would evolve to make use of more than just its main food source but the idea had not occurred to me. Should have I guess. Given the wide adaptability of bees I would think that it may not be something too obscure or rare. That may not make it (or them) easy to find but may make it easier to reproduce.

Still a bee wanter. We are having a bout of lovely weather though so I remain hopeful.


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## Litsinger

sparkyApis said:


> To my mind, being able to drop something here for when someone has the time to get around to it is a real advantage.


Sel:

I am with you on this. I enjoy the longer-form format of a forum that at least gives one the opportunity to take the time to compose their thoughts and discuss / articulate ideas that might be almost impossible to roll around in most of the other social media platforms.

While I am most definitely no expert in the field of mycology (or even honey bees for that matter), it does seem like we have only just now begun to plumb the depth of scientific pursuit in the realm of honey bee self-medication. It does however seem to lend some credence to the almost universal understanding that one of the most critical components for sustainable success in beekeeping is access to an abundance of diverse and high-quality forage.


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## Litsinger

This week I participated in a peer inspection of my apiary for the purposes of obtaining the 'Certified Naturally Grown' status:









Apiary Certification


Certification for farmers, not corporate conglomerates




www.cngfarming.org





The impetus of this idea came from an article by M.E.A. McNeil in last month's ABJ, and was solidified later after discussion with a Certified Organic Transition Trainer friend of mine who confirmed that it is virtually impossible to secure USDA Organic Certification (or equivalent) for most apicultural operations in the US due mainly to the issues outlined in the attached article.

At its core, the apiary program through 'Certified Naturally Grown' differs from the USDA Organic program in three (3) main areas:

1. The beekeeper is responsible only for the inputs they can control.
2. There is an allowance for the use of organic chemicals for mite control.
3. The program is built on peer review (versus professional inspectors).

While I was somewhat skeptical of how the peer review/inspection might go off in practice, I was pleasantly surprised at how well the process went, when one worked to address in good-faith all the questions outlined in the inspection form: 



https://certified.naturallygrown.org/documents/Inspection_Forms_Apiary_Observer.pdf



The other aspect I really liked is their strong (but optional) focus on involving others (non beekeepers) in the process as community stakeholders- creating an opportunity for beekeeping advocacy and education.

As it were, a local beekeeping colleague of mine who also happens to be TF completed the inspection and a neighbor of mine who has expressed interest in beekeeping came along and got to hear us talk shop as we completed the inspection. All-in-all it was an enjoyable experience.

We collectively did a deep-dive into two hives, focusing on looking at one of the best and one of the worst. 

In Hive #2005 we were able to observe the last rounds of capped brood and backfilling of the broodnest with nectar coming in from the Fall flow, bee bread on the periphery of the nest and got to show 'her majesty' to my neighbor, who had never seen a queen before.

In Hive #2112 we got to see a colony stuck in neutral. I had suspected they were queenless based on a lack of foraging but we were surprised to see they were still queenright and had maybe two dozen capped cells and a frame of uncapped nectar. There were a few open cells with melted larvae so we suspect they might have been dealing with a little EFB. Further, the queen was really runty (photos attached), so it is possible she was not well-mated. Regardless, we shook them out.

Otherwise, it has been a good bee year. #2112 marks only the second swarm start I have had to shake-out this Summer/Fall and all the overwintered colonies that swarmed successfully re-queened. While I reserve the right to shake-out or combine others in the next few weeks, I feel that the remainder (38 colonies) have better than even-money odds of being left to try to overwinter.


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## joebeewhisperer

Russ,

I don't remember if I updated you on my treatment options/decisions. I remember you humbly saying you would be waiting with bated breath. After I looked up the difference between "baited" and "bated" (restrained), and realized how ignorant I am on a great-many things. 

I put Apivar strip in around half of my current colonies. All but 2 of the 10-frame hives have had strips in them for a month now. I really intended to get around to more and had another 50 pack of strips, but at this point I'll probably stick. I'm transferring 5-frame EZ Nucs into 6-frame polys for winter. I'm trying to keep the numbers down to ~20 total going into winter. So if I don't change my mind I'll be taking 10ish into winter without treatment. Two are established 10-frames (one dd, one dmm) that haven't had anything since last Dec dribble, and the rest are mostly double deep 6-frame with one colony on top and another on bottom separated by something functioning as a double screen. 

I have one nuc that are from my brother's feral bees (more Italian-looking than Amm or other). I did a split from his that had plentiful varroa in the drone brood. I didn't do a count, but digging through some drone brood they were easy to find. I dropped in a Russian queen in July and she has them packed out. My thinking was whether a Russian queen can turn around an infested colony, so I intended to let this one play out from day one. She will likely stop laying very soon. So that one I'm very interested in. 

I haven't fully committed but I'm thinking the ones that are now untreated I can afford to lose. One of my main concerns with totally unchecked mites is that I haven't seen a single case of deformed wing in over a year. So it could be that they can stand some pestilence as long as the viruses are not prevalent. Just thinking thoughts here. My first goal is producing bees that consistently survive. The closer those bees are to TF the better I'll like it, but it's not my primary goal. Sustainable old-school set-and-forget bees would be lovely, even if the honey harvest was 30% or what it would be with treatments.


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## GregB

joebeewhisperer said:


> My thinking was whether a Russian queen can turn around an infested colony, so I intended to let this one play out from day one. She will likely stop laying very soon. So that one I'm very interested in.


JBW.
I doubt it.
I have killed several queens thinking "they will turn things around". 
Nope; did not work.

This is how I am now testing the "clean starts".
A good queen needs a clean start - then she should be able to maintain it for some time.


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## joebeewhisperer

GregV said:


> JBW.
> I doubt it.
> I have killed several queens thinking "they will turn things around".
> Nope; did not work.
> 
> This is how I am now testing the "clean starts".
> A good queen needs a clean start - then she should be able to maintain it for some time.


Word. In this case I transferred enough capped brood and stores (and a blank frame if memory serves) into an EZ Nuc in mid July. I only checked drone brood and found 3 mites in probably 25-30 cells. I was really just getting that brood out of the way as I didn’t want those drones in the air.

I made no provision for mites except the queen and this realizing that her offspring would have to be preyed upon during their upbringing. As far as from the surface, the box is packed and nothing looks or smells wonky. I’m moving them to a 6-frame poly soon. The Russian queen will completely shut down soon. I guess then it comes down to grooming as to how many mites stay for how long.

Even with the stock I used mites haven’t completely prevailed in 2 years, though they are swarmy and not super productive. Side note: they are big on propolis. My brother’s hive is like liquid nail.


----------



## GregB

joebeewhisperer said:


> As far as from the surface, the box is packed and nothing looks or smells wonky.


This is normal at this time for most colonies - don't forget, you still have a large proportion of population that are NOT the winter bees (but just the last cohort of the summer bees soon to die).

Then these "most" colonies simply collapse over the winter, in my experience.

In fact, last year I did the counts and it was a very good demo how the healthy looking and strong colonies quickly fade over the wintering period.
For a fact, mite count > 3/100 is very likely a dead colony.

The only survivor out my collection last winter was a *dinky *VSH colony with count <= 3/100.
The superficial looks don't matter much.
The true health of the colony does matter.
Ideal colony, of course, is both strong and healthy, where strong <> healthy.

To be clear, your location seems to support some mite-resistance and you may have different results. In my location the mite-resistance is not sustainable without external help and inputs.


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## joebeewhisperer

GregV said:


> To be clear, your location seems to support some mite-resistance and you may have different results. In my location the mite-resistance is not sustainable without external help and inputs.


Yes, I don’t really know if I have much of a spot relative to what everyone else is faced with, as far as varroa travel goes. If I were to eradicate every mite, it might take a great deal of time to have them back in numbers. 

Also, I’m definitely interested in your findings. About a year ago you said something about the issues open-feeding can bring. At the time I had been convinced the park ranger (.25mi away) had bees by the general direction of one of the courses occasionally traveled. I did a hard target search of the grounds and no hives. This also caused me to use more of a gorge approach when feeding outside, to minimize raising yellow jackets and also not create an unsustainable food source for other species.

I realize from just being a fly on the wall that a colony can look great and still be in peril. And this particular infestation is much higher than 3% in the drone brood, in fact several times that.

One thing in the back of my head is whether some bees are causing the mites to stay mostly confined to drone brood through chemical processes that either repel them from worker cell or make drones irresistible. I seem to remember Apis cerana having a different kind of mite, do I don’t know if their drone-only mites are comparable. But I also read (though some might be marketing hype), that some Russian lines keep mite levels from reaching lethal thresholds strictly by as yet unknown chemical processes, hygiene, both or other.

Either way, this one colony (and possibly several more) is going into winter doing battle on their own. If she produces late summer then winter bees, and they come out thriving despite having to endure mites long enough to completely change genetics, then I have a breeder in the spring. If they perish, I will know I was asking too much.


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> I haven't fully committed but I'm thinking the ones that are now untreated I can afford to lose.


Joe:

Thank you for the update. Your plan seems reasonable to me, especially when it seems plain to me that you have a good knack for making increase and you have the luxury to experiment with colonies that you can afford to lose. If nothing else, it makes your Spring increase efforts more managable assuming higher winter attrition.

I too have noticed a conspicuous absence of any DWV the last two years. While I don't have enough data to draw any straight lines, it does seem that the general trend of things is that these feral-type bees are comprised of a mixed lot of phenotypes which likely both reduce mite reproduction in varying ways and have increased virus tolerance.

I will be eager to read how your experiment turns out, and will wait with 'bated breath' for your next update.


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## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> Joe:
> 
> Thank you for the update. Your plan seems reasonable to me, especially when it seems plain to me that you have a good knack for making increase and you have the luxury to experiment with colonies that you can afford to lose. If nothing else, it makes your Spring increase efforts more managable assuming higher winter attrition.
> 
> I too have noticed a conspicuous absence of any DWV the last two years. While I don't have enough data to draw any straight lines, it does seem that the general trend of things is that these feral-type bees are comprised of a mixed lot of phenotypes which likely both reduce mite reproduction in varying ways and have increased virus tolerance.
> 
> I will be eager to read how your experiment turns out, and will wait with 'bated breath' for your next update.


Thanks Russ,
On increase, I'm going into winter trying to figure out how to stuff every queen in a home (while still limiting numbers). So yes, as long as I'm healthy, I don't see a future where I couldn't at least hobble along and fill the boxes back up. Most of the moth and beetle activity around here seems to be during warm-ish weather. If I keep a check on them and don't let a dead-out stay in place for long then at least I'll have the equipment. I sincerely hope the absence of DWV in certain lines is permanent and repeatable. I hate seeing the little boogers come out deformed. Makes you mad at mites and yourself. 

Admittedly, this afternoon I was thinking of weaving this into my own marketing. Just graft from strong, local-survivor, untreated, best colonies. As much as I'd like to be noble, I can't help the way my mind figures out a revenue stream, it's inherited. That said, if I happen up on crazy good, miraculous stock, I will not keep them hidden. 

Take care my friend, 
js


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Admittedly, this afternoon I was thinking of weaving this into my own marketing. Just graft from strong, local-survivor, untreated, best colonies. As much as I'd like to be noble, I can't help the way my mind figures out a revenue stream, it's inherited. That said, if I happen up on crazy good, miraculous stock, I will not keep them hidden.


Right- the flip side is that they survive spectacularly and the time you would have normally spent applying OA is now reinvested in the business to make more increase- either way you end up with more bees .

I am obviously bee-ing a bit facetious here- but in all seriousness things could go better than you anticipate and you want to be prepared for that too.


----------



## Litsinger

The late, great J.W. Palmer once posted an article entitled, 'The Bee Hunter' by George Harold Edgell, commenting that it was a worthy read.

After printing it out and letting it sit forlorn on my nightstand for over a year I finally had the time to sit down and read it, and I am glad I did. It can be consumed in under an hour.

It is decidedly well-written and is full of pithy anecdotes of his personal experiences in 'bee lining'. Here are two noteworthy excerpts. 

Near the beginning he is describing his mentor:

_'George Smith, as I shall call him, was a character, to the youngster as fabulous as Paul Bunyan. He took his whiskey neat. He smoked and chewed at the same time and could spit without removing the pipe from his mouth. His profanity could take the bluing off a gun barrel. Withal, he was one of the kindest and most generous of men and a mighty bee hunter before the Lord, or the devil if one prefers.'_

At the end he concludes:

_'Time was when I could scramble up and down Croydon Mountain like a squirrel and could push the pace. That I can no longer do, but I can move more slowly, consider more carefully, draw on the craft and knowledge of long experience and find as many trees as when I was young and impetuous. The sport is one of infinite variety, of suspense, disappointment, perseverance, and triumph.'_

As I am reading, I am simultaneously struck with how the author is both a man of the woods and a man of letters- a true renaissance man. To be certain, I was not altogether surprised to find that Dr. George Harold Edgell was a distinguished professor of medieval architecture at Harvard and later Director of the Boston Museum of Fine Arts.

While I am sure there are still men like Dr. Edgell around, they don't seem to be available in near sufficient quantities these days.


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## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> I am obviously bee-ing a bit facetious here- but in all seriousness things could go better than you anticipate and you want to be prepared for that too.


There are two certainties while my heart is beating. One day it will stop, and I will never know if bees (my own) can whip mites without letting them do battle.

Ok, there may be more. But I hold those truths to be self evident. 😃


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> But I hold those truths to be self evident. 😃


I am smiling as I read your response for the third time... lot's of truth in there, but unfortunately it seems that most self-evident truth is up for debate these days...


----------



## joebeewhisperer

GregV said:


> JBW.
> I doubt it.
> I have killed several queens thinking "they will turn things around".
> Nope; did not work.
> 
> This is how I am now testing the "clean starts".
> A good queen needs a clean start - then she should be able to maintain it for some time.


You may be right, and I realize I was asking the max of a queen to have offspring that had to fight from the beginning, and then turn around an infested colony. I opened the nuc today and they had maybe one side of a deep frame in capped brood (it it were all on the same frame), with almost no unsealed brood. The foragers were out, so mostly nurse bees and well populated.

I didn't do a mite wash but decided to take multiple pics of both sides of each frame, then zoom the pics later and look over every bee. Did this pretty thoroughly later in the day. I may have seen one mite on a thousand bees, and that was a side shot and hard to tell. I realize many would have been under the abdomen, but I was expecting to see at least a few on thoraxes with the images blown up to the size of dogs. But again, there's still capped brood and I'm interested in mites after everything has emerged. i.e. what they do with phoretic mites

They were back-filling the brood nest despite one outermost frame not having anything on the side facing the wall. Also, I have pics of the intro and the amount of propolis in there now is unreal by comparison. Don't know that any other nuc I've had has stuck things together with such an abundance in 3 months.

It is also possible that the 20-25 drone cells I picked apart originally had the only 3 mites in all 5 frames of the split (link below). Statistically unlikely, but not too much of a stretch. So I'll look in again in 10-11 days.


__
http://instagr.am/p/CRNE2Botl9n/

Again, not claiming any conclusions. They may be dead by Thanksgiving, but so far they look good.


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## Litsinger

Nice update, Joe. That's a good looking queen you've got there.

Your 90%/10% split seems to be in the range of how I might describe the situation I am seeing thus far too- though I might go 80%/20%.

Keep up the good work- I'll look forward to reading your updates.


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## Gray Goose

Hi Joe, in regards to :
I have one nuc that are from my brother's feral bees (more Italian-looking than Amm or other). I did a split from his that had plentiful varroa in the drone brood. I didn't do a count, but digging through some drone brood they were easy to find. I dropped in a Russian queen in July and she has them packed out. My thinking was whether a Russian queen can turn around an infested colony, so I intended to let this one play out from day one. She will likely stop laying very soon. So that one I'm very interested in.

I am with Greg on this one.
1) they have lots of mites so we requeen
2) these "new bees" take 21 days to emerge and maybe 7 more to be "mite prowling"
3) that 4 weeks is dead hive walking 2 more breeding cycles for mite or more.
4) great idea but the handicap is too great to over come.

if a requeen is deemed necessary due to mites, I am of the opinion a clean start IE treat when requeening, can offer a better outcome. Trust me if you cleaned took the old queen out and then put her back, IE a fake requeen in 6 weeks the mites would be right back.

I would be curious if the requeened hive makes the winter.

GG


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## Litsinger

Good talk here from Sam Comfort at last year's Texas Beekeeper's Association meeting courtesy of MSL. Three things stuck-out to me:

1. At about the 3:30 mark, Sam outlined what he sees as the three most important aspects in TF beekeeping: #1 Environment, #2 Methodology and #3 Genetics.

2. At about the 37:40 mark, he discusses his thoughts on epigenetics and outlines how he always rears queens in a cell builder from the same family line.

3. At about the 45:30 mark, he discusses some concepts concerning local/regional breeding co-ops.


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## Litsinger

Things are moving rapidly into Fall here in Western Kentucky- the most noticeable (and welcome) changes being the lower relative humidity and nighttime lows in the 50's.

I took the last couple of days to go through all the colonies one last time in preparation for winter. I provided a little surplus assistance in the form of open feed frames to three (3) new swarm starts, but otherwise managed to avoid providing any outside inputs this year and pulled off a fair amount of surplus beside. I still do not have near enough drawn comb, but finally have enough to have a few options throughout the season.

Otherwise, I put top insulation on the Langstroth colonies and left the upper entrances plugged for now. I might wait until Thanksgiving to open them up- if I open them at all.

Based on the results of my observations, I am planning to allow 38 colonies the opportunity to attempt overwintering, which is a net of ten (10) more than I took into winter last year, which is represented by:

Twenty-five (25) 8-frame Langstroth colonies intended to be managed for production.

Three (3) 10-frame Langstroth colonies utilized as resource colonies.

Two (2) 5-frame Langstroth nucleus colonies utilized as resource colonies.

Eight (8) Warre colonies utilized as genetic resources.

Assuming I don't experience significant failure this winter, the goals for next year will include:

1. Fully-stock the apiary- I have a total of forty-one (41) slots that can be filled at the home yard.

2. Learn to become proficient at making-up swarm management nucs- I am inclined to start-out utilizing the modified Doolittle Method as described by Dr. Larry Connor, and if all goes well plan on gifting/selling some nucs this next year.

3. Get more comb drawn out and start managing the 25 production colonies for production in earnest- Up to this point I have been content to do what I can to forestall swarming, but having the luxury of ample slots in the yard to park my mistakes. I now need to become more focused at managing to reduce reproductive swarms, anticipating that this may have deleterious impacts on mite population growth (at least based on early returns).

All-in-all, it has been another good year in Western Kentucky, and I look forward to what 2022 holds.


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## sparkyApis

Sounds like a good years work, glad to hear your progress. I hope the winter treats you kindly.
Sel.


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## Litsinger

Thanks for the kind words, Sel. Are you in the bee business yet?


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## sparkyApis

Hopefully a report coming tomorrow. At this stage I can say I've handled bees and lived to tell the tale.


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## Litsinger

sparkyApis said:


> At this stage I can say I've handled bees and lived to tell the tale


That's a big first step. I'll look forward to reading your update.


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## Litsinger

__





Building a Better Bee


Located in an urban environment on a 300-acre tree-lined campus, Rice University seizes its advantageous position to pursue pathbreaking research and create innovative collaboration opportunities that contribute to the betterment of our world.




magazine.rice.edu


----------



## Litsinger

Interesting study published this summer in the journal _Nature_ by Locke et al sought to _… assess and compare the possible contribution of adapted virus tolerance and/or resistance to the enhanced survival of four well-documented mite-resistant honeybee populations from Norway, Sweden, The Netherlands and France, in relation to unselected mite-susceptible honeybees._

The research and results are summarized as follows (emphasis mine):

_Caged adult bees and laboratory reared larvae, from colonies of these four populations, were inoculated with DWV and ABPV in a series of feeding infection experiments, while control groups received virus-free food. Virus infections were monitored using RT-qPCR assays in individuals sampled over a time course. In both adults and larvae the DWV and ABPV infection dynamics were nearly identical in all groups, but all mite-resistant honeybee populations had significantly higher survival rates compared to the mite-susceptible honeybees. These results suggest that adapted virus tolerance is an important component of survival mechanisms._

A few other interesting nuggets:

Even while expressing demonstrable virus tolerance, all populations seek to attenuate mite population growth- _These populations have all been exposed to the selection pressure of long-term uncontrolled mite infestation and in response have adapted a repertoire of mite-resistant traits that limit the mite population growth rate._

Virus load in the presence of mite pressure has a profound (but maybe poorly understood) impact on survival- _The interesting result is that the same bees, with the same infestation rates, reacted so very differently depending on whether they were inoculated with DWV, with ABPV or not inoculated at all. Obviously, non-inoculated bees survive much better than DWV-inoculated or ABPV-inoculated bees, with or without varroa, but the absence of this interactive effect between varroa and oral DWV inoculation may be one more factor explaining why DWV consistently emerges as the primary varroa-associated virus in apiculture._

The importance (and caution) of properly considering population and environmental impacts- _Apiary effects are a well-known source of error in honeybee research, particularly for colony-level experiments. Here we show that such landscape-level differences can also affect individual level laboratory results, serving both as a caution for those contemplating laboratory studies without due regard for the origin of the bees and as a promise for investigating in greater molecular detail the mechanisms linking the influence of the environment on honeybee molecular health._


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## Litsinger

I had the distinct privilege to attend the 'Advanced Natural Beekeeping' course led by Kirk Webster and hosted by Dr. Leo today in West Plains, MO. There were over 200 attendees from 30 states and it was well-worth the investment.

While I'll plan on offering some extended insights I gleaned from Kirk in subsequent posts, I'd submit that the thesis of his teaching is that:

'Success is only achieved by utilizing both appropriate selection and appropriate management.'

And for Kirk, _"...the cornerstone_ (of appropriate selection and management) _is overwintered nucleus colonies."_ They feature heavily into every aspect of his operation.

In Kirk's operation, breeding is guided by evaluation of a potential breeder queen through parts of three seasons:

1. As an overwintered nucleus colony.
2. As a production colony.
3. As an overwintered production colony.

On a personal level, I found him to be very personable and gracious in his replies to questions that ranged from the pedestrian to the esoteric, and honest about his continued new struggles since 2017.


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## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Interesting study published this summer in the journal _Nature_ by Locke et al sought to _… assess and compare the possible contribution of adapted virus tolerance and/or resistance to the enhanced survival of four well-documented mite-resistant honeybee populations from Norway, Sweden, The Netherlands and France, in relation to unselected mite-susceptible honeybees._


I wonder if a lot of the failures of 'resistant' bees not being very resistant when moved to a different locale might not be due to new and different viral strains present. They may be adapted to a specific suite of pathogens but not to others.


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> I wonder if a lot of the failures of 'resistant' bees not being very resistant when moved to a different locale might not be due to new and different viral strains present. They may be adapted to a specific suite of pathogens but not to others.


Moreover, when a melting pot of various bees (just over-wintered and freshly imported) is re-initiated every year, and year after year - speaking of most any adaptation is a moot point.


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## crofter

In any case some form of isolation seems to be (or have been) a common factor in successful TF examples. A geographic location with long, varied, and bounteous forage would be a big plus in reducing stressors too.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I wonder if a lot of the failures of 'resistant' bees not being very resistant when moved to a different locale might not be due to new and different viral strains present. They may be adapted to a specific suite of pathogens but not to others.


AR1:

Thanks for the reply. From my very humble vantage point, I think you might be right. More and more scholarship keeps coming out that suggests that at least some (and maybe most?) resistance expression is a population-level trait that is attuned to the unique stressors in the population, and thus not reliably translatable.

For his part, Kirk mentioned today that it is still an open question in his mind as to whether his bees developed resistance or the mites became less virulent. I suspect (based on the research out there) it might be a little of both.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> ... some extended insights I gleaned from Kirk ...


Kirk’s first talk was entitled ‘The Natural Form of a Northern Apiary’- and it was an extended presentation of his May 2006 ABJ article of the same name:

_https://kirkwebster.com/the-natural-form-of-a-northern-apiary/_

In it he is touching on what might be described as the ‘twin pillars’ of his program- selection for general suitability to the specific environmental and disease profiles endemic to his area, and suitable management which takes fullest advantage of the local environment, the honey bees’ biology and the beekeeper’s goals.

As Kirk describes, _‘… the key is in looking for and focusing on that "natural form"- making optimum use of our pollen and nectar resources, and all four of our seasons; especially the winter. The constant testing, selection and propagation of stock in the home environment is the other indispensable element.’_

He reflectively expands on this concept and succinctly describes the daunting challenge facing resistance breeding that I think most of us can appreciate (emphasis mine) by observing:

_‘Looking back, I can see now that searching for the right "form" or structure for the apiary is what enabled me to survive and expand during the worst of tracheal mite damage. Most of the recordkeeping I did turned out to be counter-productive. But I'll be the first to admit that I was lucky to find a system that worked so well. With varroa mites we are up against a more serious problem, and I can't make much comment here because I don't have enough experience yet. Focusing on a few traits like mite chewing and hygienic behavior may be helpful in developing varroa resistant bees, but populations of such bees, which are genuinely useful, will only result from a large gene pool continuously tested and weeded out in the total environment, generation after generation. This is what I am hoping to do in my apiary in the future; but only time will tell.’_

And as to the practical execution of his program he stressed often that, _“Overwintered nucleus colonies are the secret to Northern beekeeping.”_

As Kirk describes in the article, _‘The single most important point is to stop focusing on freshly mated, untested queens and package bees available in April; and organize your management around queens mated in summer and maintained through the winter in nucleus colonies. This is the key to everything.’_

He continues, _‘By the time fresh pollen and nectar are available from the soft maples in mid-April, they have been subjected to most of the stresses they can encounter here (with the notable exception of tracheal mites) and are showing clear differences in their response to these, and to the first nectar flow. It's a simple matter to inspect and rank them at this point. The weakest 25% have either failed during the winter, or are retained to provide brood for the next crop of nucs. The rest have already proven themselves to be well adapted and vigorous in this environment, and can be used in the home apiary to replace winter loss, to expand, or as a source of queens and brood for 2-queen colonies. They make a superior product when offered for sale.’_

His second talk was entitled, ‘A Year in the Beeyard: How it Works’ and I will share some feedback concerning this presentation in a subsequent post.


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## gww

Ben
I have been waiting for you but for some reason the site did not give me the little highlight that lets me know when you have posted.
Glad I knew to watch for it and check a little deeper.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> Glad I knew to watch for it and check a little deeper.


Good to hear from you, GWW. Thanks for the feedback. How is the flattop playing going?

Russ


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## gww

I have finally slowed down a bit and for the last two weeks, been playing at least a bit every day but not really learning anything new. I am sure deer season is going to put another dent in my routine. This is the reason that I worked so many hours a day cause I knew there would come a time where I would slow down and I tried to get as much in while in my gung ho mode. What I did do was start making a little soap as the new thing.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

Interesting study posted today by BeeWeaver explores the genetic basis for varroa tolerance in their stock.

Entitled ‘_Multi-tiered analyses of honey bees that resist or succumb to parasitic mites and viruses’_, the research is published in the October 2021 edition of the Journal _BMC Genomics_.

From BeeWeaver Honey Farm FB Post:

_Quick Summary: Paper in BMC Genomics just published showing that BeeWeaver bees have orders of magnitude lower levels of honey bee viruses than do other populations, and those virus loads do not increase in the presence of Varroa mites. Another important finding is that even after direct injection of deformed wing virus (DWV), many BeeWeaver colonies do not develop high loads of DWV, as most other bees do._

In a nutshell, the research focuses on the results of three (3) specific experiments on a cohort of fifteen (15) colonies from both ‘Resistant’ (R) and ‘Susceptible’ (S) backgrounds. For the purposes of the study, the ‘R’ population was described as, _‘… colonies had survived for more than 2 years without any chemical treatments or other interventions for mite control, and were headed by queens that were drawn from a population that had been managed without mite control interventions for more than 10 years at the time of the sampling.’_

In truth, the ‘R’ population should likely more accurately be described as a ‘Tolerant’ population as, _‘Both R and S bees showed roughly comparable levels of mite infestation, as revealed by observation of worker pupae for Varroa infestation as samples were collected for RNA extraction.’_

And while there are several finer points made in the body of the research, they all point to the same hypothesis- ‘R’ colonies have a markedly different gene response to viral load than do ‘S’ colonies (emphasis below mine):

_‘The salient gene expression patterns that we observed in field and laboratory, under a variety of experimental conditions, demonstrate important differences between the two phenotypes in their response to Varroa destructor parasitism and Deformed wing virus infection. Equally important, our results allow differentiation of honey bee gene expression signals associated with viral infection in the presence and absence of mite parasites. These results have bearing on programs to understand host-parasite coevolution in a social insect and might be applied toward more sustainable strategies for reducing the impacts of parasitic mites on bees. They add support to predictions that bees surviving despite being subjected to unmanaged levels of Varroa mites do so because of their abilities to resist associated viruses.’_

So the big take-away for me is that the BeeWeaver population (at least as represented by this research) utilizes viral tolerance as one of its key survival mechanisms as opposed to reduced mite population growth.


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> What I did do was start making a little soap as the new thing.


GWW:

Now that sounds interesting- you rendering your own lard and making your own lye?

I'll look forward to reading all about it in your next post 😉.

Take care of yourself- and have a great week.

Russ


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## gww

I am not making my own lye as wood ash is more for liquid or paste soap. I have used some koh that my brother in law had from his diesel making days and so I did make some liquid hand soap but mostly bar soap with different bought lye.








I did render some fats including chicken fat from stuff cut off bought meats we eat and my brother in law gave me a coffee can of bacon grease and soon it is deer season and I may have something new to try also. Have also bought some oils.

My sister just ask for some tonight and so I guess the word is getting out that it does not completely suck for washing with. I have given about 12 bars away and have about 30 plus more made and so am sure those won't last very long. Everybody will be saving me bacon grease now. I have found that I can make a bar for seventy eight cents with all bought stuff and with free grease it is still around fifty cents and so I can not beat store prices. I could make a bar with free oil and no additive for hard water for about 20 cents but it would only really fit camping and such due to soap scum over time is my guess. It is what I am using in my bath, pure lard bar. Only made one batch though and then got ambitious for even better. I don't hate it though.

If I started adding fragrance and color, the price would jump way up to make it. Some people make a real art form of it but that will be a skill that is unattainable to me.

If I ever start working in the garage again and fire up the wood burner, I may try some pot ash lye.

Over all, it has been interesting and if not productive, at least not prohibitive and I can pretend it is productive and it has been fun to learn and easy to do.

Nice bee report and so keep them coming.
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

gww said:


> ... and I can pretend it is productive and it has been fun to learn and easy to do.


And hopefully a rewarding opportunity to be a craftsman.

Earlier this year, my family and I took a trip to the 'Discovery Park of America' located in Union City, TN.

As a part of this impressive venue they have a feature called 'The Settlement'- a historically-accurate rendering (no pun intended) of early 19th Century life in West Tennessee.

While there, a retired Chemistry teacher from Obion County Schools was demonstrating soap making- including the preparation of lye from wood ash.

I was both humbled by the level of skill required to successfully distill lye and thankful that store-bought soap is available.

All that said, the older I get the more I appreciate the intrinsic benefits of many pursuits that may not be reflected in strictly economic terms.

Truth be told, I'd be money well ahead having never gotten back into beekeeping and just continued to buy honey at the grocery store- but where's the fun in that?

Take care of yourself-

Russ


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## gww

Russ


> Truth be told, I'd be money well ahead having never gotten back into beekeeping and just continued to buy honey at the grocery store- but where's the fun in that?


This may actually change in the future as you get your feet under you. I have to look at things in a comparison fashion. Bees have been so much better to me then chickens. When it comes to making a living, your actual job is probably best but when dealing with free time, I have found bee keeping to be a value added past time. So it is only 5oo bucks a year. I am receiving instead of spending. Every little bit helps. Your equipment should last for some time yet. My math might also be fuzzy though .
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

Small-cell mites?

An interesting older study from a decade ago was recently posted on Bee-L that explored whether mite size had any bearing on acaricide effectiveness:

_Body size variability of Varroa destructor and its role in acaricide tolerance_

While it is a tough read, there were three (3) principal things that stood out to me:


Mite phenotypes were defined in the same manner as we typically define bees- the opposite side of the same host-parasite coin:
_'When it comes to miticide treatments, a parasite population can contain three different types of individuals: susceptible, tolerant and resistant. Susceptible parasites are those that, under an “ordinary” miticide treatment, are eliminated from the population. Those that survive can be divided into the two remaining groups. Tolerance has been defined as the absence of innate susceptibility to a given drug by a tolerant individual, even if it has never been exposed to its active principle before, thereby leaving the drug with little or no lethal effect on it. The tolerant status of an individual is then governed by the phenotypic expression of its genotype. Resistant individuals are those able to withstand drug concentrations considered lethal for other individuals from the same population. As opposed to the tolerance phenomenon, the resistance phenomenon has a genetic basis and hence it is inheritable.'_


Morphological distinctions were observed in different acaricide regimes:
_'… it was reported in Argentina different morphotypes of V. destructor infesting honey bee populations. These authors suggested that the different morphotypes found in their research were the result of selective pressures produced by different intensities of acaricide use, which could be characteristic of each geographic location of the country.'_


The study authors suggest that acaricide choice and method of delivery might select for particular morphologies:
_‘In view of the foregoing, smaller mites could be more likely to survive to possible contact acaricide treatments, given their smaller body surface exposed to the drug. Nevertheless, their chances of survival would be similar to those of larger mites when the acaricide applied acts by evaporation.’_


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## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> While it is a tough read, there were three (3) principal things that stood out to me:


Thank you! Got bleary eyed trying to read it this morning.


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## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> Thank you! Got bleary eyed trying to read it this morning.


Good bedtime reading material.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> His second talk was entitled, ‘A Year in the Beeyard: How it Works’ and I will share some feedback concerning this presentation in a subsequent post.


This talk expanded and gave color to an 11-part series of articles that Kirk wrote in 2007, in which he walks the reader through a year of his apiary activities by season and describes the rationale behind each step.

And while I can do it no justice in a single post, the key take away is that his real purpose for the series _‘… is to just give you a starting point and encourage you to experiment and come up with a system that fits in really well with your own location and personal circumstances.’_

During the talk he said, _“You can’t succeed by copying me- adapt _[these principles]_ to your local circumstances.”_

And I think this context is important when evaluating anyone’s approach or methods- what is the context and the ‘why’ behind what they are doing. And for Kirk, _“Almost every operation _[is]_ oriented toward selection.”_

A good example is Kirk’s four-way mating nucs. During the talk he often mentioned that this configuration and size was determined strictly out of a need to be more efficient at raising and assessing queens. As he writes:

_‘If you want to catch more than 300 queens in one season, I think it’s worthwhile to make up special frames and boxes for the mating nucs. Whether you’re producing queens just for your own use or for sale, catching and caging them is always the bottleneck, and everything possible should be done to facilitate this process. The smaller the nuc is, the faster you can find the queen. But when the nucs get too small, they need more attention to keep them from starving or absconding. The optimum size for combining fast queen catching and trouble-free maintenance is probably a 6 5/8 box holding two nucs, each consisting of four half-length frames and a small feeder. However, at my latitude, these would have to be recombined into larger colonies for the winter. I consider it an enormous advantage to have as many of the new queens as possible wintering in separate nucs, and surrounded by their own workers. So my compromise is to use standard have bodies divided into four separate compartments.’_

The other key point of his talk was his method of selection, which as previously alluded to is a three-year process. Queens are started and overwintered in the four-way mating nucs. Following successful overwintering, the most robust nucs are moved into full-sized production colonies, which are then overwintered. And it is only from the best overwintered production colonies that Kirk breeds from.

And his process for ranking is quite simple. Three weeks after maple pollen begins coming in, he assesses the cluster size of prospective breeding stock and ranks them on a 1-4 scale and breeds from those with the largest clusters. When I asked him whether this was the only criteria, he did mention that remaining honey stores factored in a bit too- meaning the ideal colony in his book is a frugal one that builds up significantly at the first signs of reliable pollen.

There are many other things he related concerning a year-in-the-life of his operation but for the sake of space I’ll close touching on what might be the most endearing aspect of his approach to me- namely the goal of bringing a stewardship mindset and a ‘can do’ attitude to our beekeeping. He closes his series with this:

_‘At this point we’ve reached now, really healthy apiaries cannot be bought or sold, borrowed, stolen, or connived by any means. They can’t even be owned by anyone—they have to be recreated constantly, one apiary at a time, by steady, careful, creative work. I know now that each generation of bees doesn’t have to be weaker than the one before. I’ve seen the process run in the other direction, and I understand how it works. Even after all the work I’ve done focused on stability and resilience, I’m perfectly aware that any number of things could destroy an apiary, a livelihood or a life. But, whatever happens, no one can tell me anymore about the inevitable demise of honeybees and beekeeping. With a change of attitude, the answers are close by and there’s plenty of inspiration and guidance. The work might be hard, but only because we’re not used to it. If we care about future generations, and the other beings who share the Earth with us, we have to stop expecting other people to solve our problems; to learn from others instead of taking from them, and do our share of the work. This work is more satisfying and meaningful than just about anything else you can do at this point. The old beekeeping is dying, and a new one is struggling to be born. Are you going to the funeral, or assisting with the birth? They are both occurring at the same time, so you have to choose.’_

P.S. Dr. Leo also gave a talk entitled 'Natural Beekeeping' and I will share a few thoughts in a subsequent post. He made some interesting comments that reflect what appears might emerge as a more nuanced approach from him in the future.


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## Litsinger

As part of Mr. Randy Oliver's most recent NY Bee Wellness talk, he addressed two questions relative to his TF breeding efforts:

@1:07:30 he addresses the challenges they continue to face getting daughters to express resistance (10% success) but seems to sound hopeful that maybe they are about to turn the corner relative to maternal genetics- such that they might in future not be so strictly tied to fortuitous matings.

@1:12:30 he addresses potential mechanisms of control and suggests that uncapping/recapping may be involved- which comports well with recent scholarship.


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## AR1

I very rarely have the patience to watch videos, but that one flew by. I didn't even feel the urge to increase the playback speed! Very interesting. 

Unfortunate that the breeding efforts appear not very successful to date. But I wonder if success isn't in the eye of the beholder? I would like to see a trial comparing his 'poor' (outside the top 10%) queens against un-selected/commercial queens. Has there been NO progress across the population, or has there just been not enough progress to satisfy Randy Oliver?

I see a huge difference in hive mite resistance, just in my very limited and small experience. One queen received as a swarm died, massively infested with mites that same fall, and her daughter, made from a split the same summer, also died the same fall. Incredible brood-layers, but perfectly non-resistant. A neighbor hive from a different source survived even though only 10 feet away from the collapsing hive. If I were to guess, I'd guess that RO's 'poor' hives were more similar to my 'resistant' hive. Be interesting to know.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Has there been NO progress across the population, or has there just been not enough progress to satisfy Randy Oliver?


That is THE question isn't it? It seems based on past reports that Randy suggests there has been some progress, but that both the pace and heritability is not enough to satisfy his needs from a commercial perspective, which are significantly more rigorous than us mere mortals would likely be satisfied with...


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## crofter

I think in some conditions the survival may be linked to the inherent tendency to rob other colonies. Could this be another facet to what constitutes varroa survivability?


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## Litsinger

crofter said:


> Could this be another facet to what constitutes varroa survivability?


Good point, Frank. I think it certainly could be.

I know for Randy's effort the primary variable is low mite population growth, which one might expect incorporates both a lower robbing tendency and more discernment about who is let in the front door.


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> I see a huge difference in hive mite resistance, just in my very limited and small experience. One queen received as a swarm died, massively infested with mites that same fall, and her daughter, made from a split the same summer, also died the same fall. Incredible brood-layers, but perfectly non-resistant. A neighbor hive from a different source survived even though only 10 feet away from the collapsing hive. If I were to guess, I'd guess that RO's 'poor' hives were more similar to my 'resistant' hive. Be interesting to know.


Let me propose this...
What about you actually observing high expression of robbing vs. low expression of robbing. 
Very aggressive robbers are full of mites.
Non-robbers - no mites.


I keep looking at my own bees, even in the backyard.
How is it their mite situations are so different even though the starting setups were very similar.
And yet common commercial bees have less mites than open-mated VSH daughter bees.

One explanation can be - robbing propensity (not the "mite resistance" however that is defined).
Pretty hard to have even less "mite resistance" than common commercial bees.
And yet this VSH daughter seems to have more mites. LOL
Well, maybe they like to rob other bees too much (which pretty much negates most of the "mite resistance" and even worse).

More correctly to say is that the robbing propensity is one component of the big picture (and a very important component).


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## AR1

GregV said:


> Let me propose this...
> What about you actually observing high expression of robbing vs. low expression of robbing.
> Very aggressive robbers are full of mites.
> 
> More correctly to say is that the robbing propensity is one component of the big picture (and a very important component).


I believe you are correct. 

I have only seen robbing once. A weak hive that had lost its queen and was slow to replace her. Took two rounds of adding brood.

My high-mite hive did not rob out the nearby hive. They may have robbed other hives, no way to know, but no hives nearby that I am aware of. Both hives of that line died very quickly though separated by 5 miles, lots of mites and DWV. Environments very different. In this case robbing or no robbing, those bees were doomed. Had I been more experienced I would have noticed the problem sooner and done some treatments, possibly saving them (just as well dead). As it was, they were far gone by the time I got Apivar strips in, too late. A valuable learning experience.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> More correctly to say is that the robbing propensity is one component of the big picture (and a very important component).


And I think we could safely add drifting propensity/acceptance to the list too:









Mite Drift Quantification - Scientific Beekeeping


Mite Drift Quantification: A Citizen Science Project Randy Oliver ScientificBeekeeping.com First Published in ABJ, April 2019 There’s been a lot of discussion on “mite bombs” and the drifting of bees and mites from hive to hive. But there’s been surprisingly little research to measure exactly...




scientificbeekeeping.com





*'Practical application: some hives in the same yard pick up far more mites than others. Why this is I don’t know, but it has huge implications for mite management, and possible directions for selective breeding programs.'*


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> And I think we could safely add drifting propensity/acceptance to the list too:


Very tricky to detect, identify the offending hive, then select against. It all comes down to level of infestation. Select against that and you automatically select against all the top offending causes. A nice project for an entomology grad student, not very practical for the rest of us.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> It all comes down to level of infestation. Select against that and you automatically select against all the top offending causes.


I think you're right, AR1. Selecting for low MPG seems to be the most promising trait when you consider all the current scholarship. Or as Dr. Kefuss would call them, 'Mite Black Holes' - mites go in, but they don't come out...


----------



## Litsinger

Cool documentary which came out last month from the Natural Beekeeping Association of Russia - '_The Point of Return_'.

Deals with the environmental and societal/political issues surrounding the preservation of the natural environment in Russia from the context of the honey bee, with an extended discussion/interviews on 'natural treatment-free' approaches with practicing beekeepers. 

From about 27:00 - 35:00 there is a detailed evaluation of the mechanisms of natural selection in the context of the varroa mite - well worth an hour investment.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Cool documentary which came out last month from the Natural Beekeeping Association of Russia - '_The Point of Return_'.
> 
> Deals with the environmental and societal/political issues surrounding the preservation of the natural environment in Russia from the context of the honey bee, with an extended discussion/interviews on 'natural treatment-free' approaches with practicing beekeepers.
> 
> From about 27:00 - 35:00 there is a detailed evaluation of the mechanisms of natural selection in the context of the varroa mite - well worth an hour investment.


At 20:00..... they talk of the morphometric wing analysis using the Ukrainian tool which I used last winter.


----------



## Litsinger

_Breeding a Mite Resistant Honey Bee_ - Stevens Bee Company


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Dr. Leo also gave a talk entitled 'Natural Beekeeping' and I will share a few thoughts in a subsequent post. He made some interesting comments that reflect what appears might emerge as a more nuanced approach from him in the future.


Following Kirk’s presentations, Dr. Leo presented a talk entitled, ‘Natural Beekeeping’. 

I was surprised when he started by asking- _“How many reproductive swarms survive in the wild?”_

He was obviously referring to Dr. Seeley’s work which suggests that only 25% of founder colonies survive the first winter- summarizing by saying, _“Natural outcomes are not what we always prefer.” _

Dr. Leo then explained how in recent seasons, he had suffered catastrophic loss from:

Small hive beetle- from 40 hives to 10 hives.
European Foul Brood- from 40 hives to 2 hives.

Dr. Leo explained that the current basis of his apiary was the result of propagating from the two colonies noted above that had survived the EFB outbreak- quite a different picture than what I had taken from other presentations.

Dr. Leo then went on to explain how a trip to Kirk’s apiary two years ago had really opened his eyes to the possibilities of artificial selection and he decided to set-out to, _“Integrate Kirk’s methods into a natural paradigm.”_ A big part of this change in thought was the recognition that, _“Kirk’s bees outperform Arnot feral bees.”_

As a result, Dr. Leo has begun to place a much more significant emphasis upon propagating the best performing stock- I unfortunately did not have the foresight to ask him whether he was still pursuing feral swarms…

As a result of his run-in with SHB, I also note he has incorporated means of controlling volume and actively trapping SHB:





__





Natural Beekeeping | Free Plans | Double-Deep Long Hive







horizontalhive.com









__





Layens Half-Frame & Supers | Free Plans | Horizontal Hives







horizontalhive.com





_'Two big advantages of horizontal hives: 1) only one frame size and 2) instant access to all frames. However, in some situations it may be useful to expand your horizontal hive vertically by adding a box (called super) filled with half-frames. These shallower frames come handy in queen rearing (see Raising Honeybee Queens) or when the honeyflow is so abundant that the bees start running out of room (Layens himself was supering his hives in good years – see Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives). And even if the top bars of your frames touch, there’s a simple trick to help bees access the upper box.'_





__





Screen Bottom | Layens Beehive | Free Plans







horizontalhive.com





_'After five years of using screen bottom boards in my apiary, I am seeing that these colonies do not perform or survive any better than those in my solid-bottom hives. Which tells me that a strong colony from local survivor stock can handle its pest issues on its own. Bee trees don’t have screen bottoms. So the equipment I build has solid bottoms by default.'_


----------



## Litsinger

We're a month in since the first hard frost around here and all the colonies are still kicking. After a few nighttime lows in the 20s we've enjoyed unseasonably mild weather like much of the US. I was curious if the milder temperatures translated into more consumption, so I pulled the weight data from the 'Reference' hive for the past 30 days, and the colony has lost a little more than 3 pounds. As a point of reference, this colony consumed approximately 7 pounds last winter before incoming nectar picked-up in earnest.

Next task in the beeyard will be to conduct 72 hour mite drop counts on the Solstice.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> I had the distinct privilege to attend the 'Advanced Natural Beekeeping' course led by Kirk Webster and hosted by Dr. Leo today in West Plains, MO. There were over 200 attendees from 30 states and it was well-worth the investment.
> 
> While I'll plan on offering some extended insights I gleaned from Kirk in subsequent posts, I'd submit that the thesis of his teaching is that:
> 
> 'Success is only achieved by utilizing both appropriate selection and appropriate management.'
> 
> And for Kirk, _"...the cornerstone_ (of appropriate selection and management) _is overwintered nucleus colonies."_ They feature heavily into every aspect of his operation.
> 
> In Kirk's operation, breeding is guided by evaluation of a potential breeder queen through parts of three seasons:
> 
> 1. As an overwintered nucleus colony.
> 2. As a production colony.
> 3. As an overwintered production colony.
> 
> On a personal level, I found him to be very personable and gracious in his replies to questions that ranged from the pedestrian to the esoteric, and honest about his continued new struggles since 2017.


thanks for the offer of info.
looks like it was a fun time as well informative.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> thanks for the offer of info.


My pleasure, GG. I sincerely hope all is well with you and your family.

Russ


----------



## Gray Goose

So 

DR Leo hit the same wall we all do.
It works untill it fails. We think we are doing good untill some thing comes along and reminds us that we had too many hives in one place. I have had the same many to few or none 3 or 4 times. Mites Bears, starvation, mice. we all get bit and become better, or quit I guess.
take a hit adapt, move forward.

Yes we are well, and looking forward to the Holidays.

Have a great day Russ

GG


----------



## gww

Russ
Did a comment on BeeL make you look? I am glad you looked. Just means my hives might be even more at risk then normal since my last extraction in sept. Not that I looked though. Thanks for taking the time to look and post.
Cheers
gww


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> We're a month in since the first hard frost around here and all the colonies are still kicking. After a few nighttime lows in the 20s we've enjoyed unseasonably mild weather like much of the US. I was curious if the milder temperatures translated into more consumption,


Very similar to here! Today it is rainy and cool, 30s. This feels like a very warm winter, at least compared to the last few, but in fact it isn't unusual in this area to have little snow until Christmas. I recall as a child wading through knee-deep snow on Halloween, and also green lawns at Christmas.

A couple years ago, for a statistics class I was taking, I took temperature data from a weather station in southern Illinois, Belleville air base, starting in 1936 to the present, and tried to see if there was any sign of a warming trend. I found none for the whole time series, but huge yearly variation. I think Belleville is about your latitude.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> DR Leo hit the same wall we all do.


To be expected, eventually.

But by now he has been lecturing people for years of something not really feasible across ALL and EVERY situations.
There is a lot of harm in that - the indiscriminate propaganda of the ideas and practices not really universally applicable - to the audience which is largely unable to critically asses the context served.

A matter of fact, I started this whole bee thing after reading through the materials disseminated by Dr. Sharaskin.
Pretty much most of the things advocated for turned out to be very different and plain wrong in my setting.

Not that I regret.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> DR Leo hit the same wall we all do.





GregV said:


> But by now he has been lecturing people for years of something not really feasible across ALL and EVERY situations.


Thanks, fellows. I think the criticism of Dr. Leo's past approaches are fair. To his credit, I believe he is starting to advocate Kirk's approach (in response to his own struggles), who stresses:



Litsinger said:


> _“You can’t succeed by copying me- adapt _[these principles]_ to your local circumstances.”_


We all have unique circumstances that may confer benefit in some aspects and disadvantage in others- the challenge is to find what will work in our specific situation and seek to incrementally improve.

Merry Christmas to you and your families.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Did a comment on BeeL make you look?


Guilty as charged, GWW. It seems we're off to a warmer start than the past few seasons...

On another note- I thought of you a few weeks ago when we were watching Andy Griffith. Barney commented that a lady in town was, "uglier than homemade soap"... notwithstanding that your soap looks great!



AR1 said:


> ... huge yearly variation.


While I am a 25 year transplant to Kentucky, this has been my experience around here. That said, we often have a rather cold November followed by a warmish December, much like we are experiencing right now.

Merry Christmas to you and your families.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I think the criticism of Dr. Leo's past approaches are fair.


Yes.

But also, and more importantly now, we should be over and done with some general sledge-hammer, global fixes by now (small cell, natural hives, feral bees, let-them-die, etc, etc) - that much is obvious.

What should be asked and answered before anything else - what is possible in my and your very own backyards.
Once you know what is possible, then go and do it.
Heck, if you can truly afford hands off, lazy beekeeping - it makes every sense to do it.

Well, one way to find what is possible - just go for it and let it be hands off and see what happens.
Just the expectations need to be realistic and the approaches need to be systematic and some incremental learning needs to happen.

I don't really know how else to measure what is possible without a run at few complete TF/hands off iterations so to lay down a baseline.
Once the baseline is laid down and understood, we can start the dance toward the more desirable situation.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Well, one way to find what is possible - just go for it and let it be hands off and see what happens.
> Just the expectations need to be realistic and the approaches need to be systematic and some incremental learning needs to happen.


Sounds like a reasonable approach to me- good stuff, GregV.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> To be expected, eventually.
> 
> But by now he has been lecturing people for years of something not really feasible across ALL and EVERY situations.
> There is a lot of harm in that - the indiscriminate propaganda of the ideas and practices not really universally applicable - to the audience which is largely unable to critically asses the context served.
> 
> A matter of fact, I started this whole bee thing after reading through the materials disseminated by Dr. Sharaskin.
> Pretty much most of the things advocated for turned out to be very different and plain wrong in my setting.
> 
> Not that I regret.


We all get a "lesson from the bees" some just take longer.
the beauty, is Ignorance CAN be fixed.
Mine has been fixed a few times.

GG


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> AR1:
> 
> Thanks for the reply. From my very humble vantage point, I think you might be right. More and more scholarship keeps coming out that suggests that at least some (and maybe most?) resistance expression is a population-level trait that is attuned to the unique stressors in the population, and thus not reliably translatable.
> 
> For his part, Kirk mentioned today that it is still an open question in his mind as to whether his bees developed resistance or the mites became less virulent. I suspect (based on the research out there) it might be a little of both.


Hey Russ,

I’ve wondered about isolation as a means of skewing any true test result as well. This of course begs the question of what constitutes a “normal” environment for the hive(s). Beek A might do really well with these bees under these floral and temp conditions. Beek B takes the same stock to almonds (or just somewhere with different conditions) and fails. 

I had heard you mention Kirk Webster before, but somehow I was late to the party on his stuff. Watched a 14min video earlier where he summarized 30 years in beekeeping. If you’ve reference this before I apologize. I’ve copied it at the time he mentioned the stock component that helped him turn it around, at least in his environment.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> I’ve wondered about isolation as a means of skewing any true test result as well.


Joe:

Good to hear from you and sorry for my delay in reply- I've been traveling the hills and hollers of Eastern Kentucky for work- beautiful country.

I think the positive spin on this phenomena might be the idea of local adaptation- it's not that my local bees do poorly when taken to almonds, but that they are shaped by the very unique environment that Mother Nature presents in Western Kentucky and the bungled management I inflict on them.

Similarly, when several bigger operators around here buy bees back from almonds and begin busting them apart to sell for nucs in Western Kentucky they tend not to do so well, at least in a TF regime.

I appreciate you posting the Kirk Webster video- that is essentially a condensed version of his talk:



Litsinger said:


> ... ‘The Natural Form of a Northern Apiary’- and it was an extended presentation of his May 2006 ABJ article of the same name:
> 
> _https://kirkwebster.com/the-natural-form-of-a-northern-apiary/_


Take care- and Merry Christmas to you and your family!


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> Joe:
> 
> Good to hear from you and sorry for my delay in reply- I've been traveling the hills and hollers of Eastern Kentucky for work- beautiful country.
> 
> I think the positive spin on this phenomena might be the idea of local adaptation- it's not that my local bees do poorly when taken to almonds, but that they are shaped by the very unique environment that Mother Nature presents in Western Kentucky and the bungled management I inflict on them.
> 
> Similarly, when several bigger operators around here buy bees back from almonds and begin busting them apart to sell for nucs in Western Kentucky they tend not to do so well, at least in a TF regime.
> 
> I appreciate you posting the Kirk Webster video- that is essentially a condensed version of his talk:
> 
> 
> 
> Take care- and Merry Christmas to you and your family!


Well said my friend. No worries on reply times. Glad you’ve experienced some more time in the mountains. When I was young I couldn’t wait to get away from these hills. Now I can’t wait to get back. 😃

Mr Webster says the introduction of the Russian bees provided the genetic stock for his 2-pronged approach.

While I’m not advocating the “silver bullet” methodology, I think it’s important to note that genetics will play a role. He also shows some pics of what to expect cluster-wise from these bees over his previous stock (significantly smaller in winter, and slower buildup).

As we’ve discussed before, there are such a large number of variables. My Russians will stop laying if signaled of an impending dearth. However, if I feed all summer (which I do in some form or other) then that dearth never comes and their broodless grooming period is not there. So we’re back to understanding the role of management.

So far my yard is about 50:50 on treatments:TF (by number of colonies, not by frames/resources) although this was really done more because time got away from me. It’s still tempting to run out there with a contraption and zap them. But at this point they’re utterly broodless and populations are 1/4 their “normal” size. This is solid across both treated and TF.

Perhaps they’ll have the mites chewed up by Feb

Merry Christmas to you and yours too ! 😃


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> As we’ve discussed before, there are such a large number of variables.


Good stuff, Joe. While my opinion doesn't count for much, I think you're right. Not only the variables inherent to our local climate and foraging profile, but the myriad genetic variables- and this is before we ever introduce any management variables into the equation. As Kirk often points out, his nucs rarely have trouble with mites- even the ones that are more middling on the resistance-front.



joebeewhisperer said:


> Perhaps they’ll have the mites chewed up by Feb


Now it's time for you to get a digital microscope and start looking for mite biting behavior! Christmas gift to yourself, perhaps?


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Wouldn’t mind having a good digital. Had a Q-See Play around here years ago and even for very little money it was pretty amazing what they picked up.

I’m doing my dead-level best to avoid mite obsession. That said, it would be cool to see bees a little closer. They probably think I’m invasive enough as it is. 😜🐝


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> I’m doing my dead-level best to avoid mite obsession.


I do think I understand- that said, it does appear (at least in the citizen-science efforts) from the Ohio Valley that there is a high correlation between mite biting and feral survival. So while I accept there are likely many factors playing into the overall equation, it appears that mite biting is common to many of the populations.

If you haven't took a spin around Dorothey Morgan's and Dwight Well's Chasing Feral Honey Bees page, it's well worth investing a couple hours on a rainy afternoon, IMHO.


----------



## Litsinger

Good video from Cory Stevens outlining his approach to VSH breeding and technique for assessing VSH in his stock:

Selecting for Varroa Sensitive Hygiene (VSH) in Honey Bees

He also spends a good bit of time addressing the concern about poor brood patterns and proliferation of disease.

In other news, the devastating tornado that ripped through Western Kentucky over the weekend directly hit the community of Mayfield, which is 15 miles to our south and a locale where my family and I spend a lot of time and have a lot of friends- the damage is truly breathtaking:

Mayfield Tornado- Drone Footage

and a community about 60 miles to the east:

Dawson Springs Tornado- Drone Footage


----------



## gww

I remember when it hit joplin Mo. Bad news and I hope from here on out it can be as good as possible for those effected.
Cheers
gww


----------



## clyderoad

I'm relieved you and yours are ok.
God bless the folks who are suffering right now.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> In other news, the devastating tornado that ripped through Western Kentucky over the weekend directly hit the community of Mayfield, which is 15 miles to our south and a locale where my family and I spend a lot of time and have a lot of friends- the damage is truly breathtaking:


This truly looks like some WWII-level damage.
Glad you are OK.

Years ago, back in Kansas, we were in direct path of a mile-wide tornado coming for out town.
It was in live broadcast on TV, early evening - so that was the "good" news.
Was some scary time as you did not know where to go because the funnel could turn in any direction at any time and it was frigging wide.
At the time we were renting an apartment on a second floor - no much for the basement to go to.
It was really no where to go but to the first floor neighbors, if that was any help.

That was not a good feeling and I still remember.

By some crazy luck the funnel went up and hopped over the town.
This one:




__





County’s largest tornado in decades injured 17 people, damaged more than 60 homes, officials say


The mile-wide tornado that skirted Lawrence Tuesday night — Douglas County’s largest twister in decades — injured 17 people and left more than 60 damaged homes in its wake, authorities said Wednesday. After touching down south of Lawrence about 6:15 p.m., the destructive tornado stayed on the...




www2.ljworld.com


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Bad news and I hope from here on out it can be as good as possible for those effected.





clyderoad said:


> God bless the folks who are suffering right now.





GregV said:


> By some crazy luck the funnel went up and hopped over the town.


Thank you, gents. It truly was Providential that there was not more loss of life- tragic as each death is.

It has also been very heartening to see the response from the community- an immediate mobilization of fund and clothing drives, numerous temporary housing options and hot meals made available to those effected and the responders who are assisting with the recovery and clean-up efforts. It restores ones' confidence in humanity.


----------



## AR1

Hope your friends and family came through Okay as well.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Hope your friends and family came through Okay as well.


Thank you, AR1. We all came through relatively unscathed by God's grace. I appreciate you asking.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

So Etienne and I were referenced in Randy Oliver's latest article in the January 2022 ABJ- neat conclusions regarding preferred nest relative humidity.


----------



## Litsinger

So one of the main reasons I got back into beekeeping was for the benefit of a planned multi-species, successively-ripening fruit orchard akin to the Backyard Orchard Culture philosophy espoused by Dave Wilson Nursery. In my combined arrogance and naivete I never could have anticipated that getting the orchard established would prove orders of magnitude harder than establishing the apiary.

After numerous self-inflicted, wildlife induced and/or weather-related calamities we're mercifully down to six replants in the 150 cultivar planting and finally harvested a very meager amount of fruit this year.

The high-density, open center training approach has proven to be a LOT of work- I have spent more hours than I care to admit to all summer and fall training trees and I am still barely able to keep up with it, especially the higher-vigor stone fruits (particularly Japanese Plums and Sweet Cherries).

The other challenge is that it seems the orchard and the beeyard both beg for a lot of attention at the same time... I am impressed with you all who manage to do both well.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> The high-density, *open center training approach* has proven to be a LOT of work


Ah that "open center training".
Me glad that I only had one of my trees "open-centered". 
This what can the "open-center" result in (picture).
Modified central leader is a better approach, me now thinks.


----------



## gww

Russ


> I am impressed with you all who manage to do both well.


What is your opinion of us that just have trees and bees and don't manage to do both well?😀
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> This what can the "open-center" result in (picture).


I've had some of that too... I am impressed with you getting out there and getting all your fruit bagged- do you generally complete dormant oil spraying to guard against worms at bloom time?


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> What is your opinion of us that just have trees and bees and don't manage to do both well?😀


I consider you in welcome in the same leaky boat I'm in- bailing water as fast as we can...


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> do you generally complete dormant oil spraying to guard against worms at bloom time?


We do no sprays. Zero. Treatment-free!
Well, unless you count the bags a treatment.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Well, unless you count the bags a treatment.


Maybe IPM


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Maybe IPM


Maybe IPM. 
So not a true TF program, indeed - what is new?
Well, the apples get the bags but the peaches get absolutely nothing and still do great! 
Unfortunatelly, the plums I may need to do something about the fungus due to great losses (some copper application maybe needed).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So not a true TF program, indeed - what is new?


I'm just having a little fun with the discussion, and I think you are really on to something here. If you marketed 'Treatment Free Fruit' it would probably be a good conversation starter.


----------



## AR1

I whack off limbs that stick out too low over the yard/garden. Otherwise no trimming. No meds. 

Familiar with this guy?
Amazon.com: David The Good: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Familiar with this guy?


Thanks for the reference, AR1- I've never heard of him, but it looks like he is quite a prolific and well-regarded author in the permaculture space. I'll have to check him out.

I'm always impressed with the variety and productivity of your garden efforts- sounds like you've got a good thing going.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Thanks for the reference, AR1- I've never heard of him, but it looks like he is quite a prolific and well-regarded author in the permaculture space. I'll have to check him out.
> 
> I'm always impressed with the variety and productivity of your garden efforts- sounds like you've got a good thing going.


He is quite accessible, has a website and he replies to comments. The website is worth browsing, and his videos are often amusing.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> In their recently published, _Parallel evolution of Varroa resistance in honey bees: a common mechanism across continents?_ paper, Ms. Isobel Grindrod and Dr. Stephen Martin utilize data analysis of 60 research papers published over the past 40 years exploring EHB survival in the face of varroa pressure across the globe in an attempt to find a unifying link in all resistant populations.


Here's a companion article to this study published in this month's BBKA which outlines,_ '... resistant populations from all different regions appear to have the same three key traits in common.' _I.E.:



Litsinger said:


> ... high rates of:
> 
> Removal of Mite-Infested Brood
> Recapping
> Mite Infertility


----------



## Litsinger

Merry Christmas one and all. As fate would have it, yesterday was the occasion for my quarterly 72-hour mite drop assessment for the 24 colonies currently equipped with screened bottom boards (attached) and also broke the mark for the warmest Christmas on record- 73 degrees for the high.

The data continue to suggest that the overall mite load in the yard is higher than it was last year- it will be interesting to see if this observation continues when assessing in the Spring.

I harvested all the mites for an assessment of mite damage when time will allow.

Several of the colonies were bringing in modest amounts of pollen and both purple deadnettle and dandelion are in scattered bloom.

Currently, all 38 colonies are still kicking and based on the debris profile in the trays more than a few of them have commenced to brood rearing- we have really had no cold weather to speak of yet here in the warm corner of Kentucky and both flora and fauna are active. Might foreshadow difficulty ahead...

I sincerely wish you all a healthy, prosperous and joy-filled 2022.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Merry Christmas one and all. As fate would have it, yesterday was the occasion for my quarterly 72-hour mite drop assessment for the 24 colonies currently equipped with screened bottom boards (attached) and also broke the mark for the warmest Christmas on record- 73 degrees for the high.
> 
> The data continue to suggest that the overall mite load in the yard is higher than it was last year- it will be interesting to see if this observation continues when assessing in the Spring.
> 
> I harvested all the mites for an assessment of mite damage when time will allow.
> 
> Several of the colonies were bringing in modest amounts of pollen and both purple deadnettle and dandelion are in scattered bloom.
> 
> Currently, all 38 colonies are still kicking and based on the debris profile in the trays more than a few of them have commenced to brood rearing- we have really had no cold weather to speak of yet here in the warm corner of Kentucky and both flora and fauna are active. Might foreshadow difficulty ahead...
> 
> I sincerely wish you all a healthy, prosperous and joy-filled 2022.


Ya lets hope they do not brood up for the perceived spring then we get a cold snap.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Ya lets hope they do not brood up for the perceived spring then we get a cold snap.


True dat...


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Several of the colonies were bringing in modest amounts of pollen and both purple deadnettle and dandelion are in scattered bloom.


You live in the tropics, Russ.
That "purple deadnettle" we call Cripping Charlie and I don't expect it to bloom until May now (and the same for the dandelion).


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> You live in the tropics, Russ.
> That "purple deadnettle" we call Cripping Charlie and I don't expect it to bloom until May now (and the same for the dandelion).


My wife refers to this area as 'tundra country'. Might see dandelions in March if it's a warm spring.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> That "purple deadnettle" we call Cripping Charlie and I don't expect it to bloom until May now (and the same for the dandelion).





AR1 said:


> Might see dandelions in March if it's a warm spring.


To be honest, these bloom cue are WAY too early for us too. In the past three years, here have been the dates I have observed:

Purple Deadnettle- 2.6 / 2.6 / 3.9
Dandelion- 2.24 / 3.6 / 3.2

This is Kentucky weather for you- today's high is predicted to be 62 degrees and tomorrow night's low is predicted to be 18 degrees.

Also, I discovered what I am calling 'Purple Deadnettle' is actually 'Henbit', which is closely related. It appears that 'Creeping Charlie' is a distant cousin:

Purple Deadnettle- Purple Deadnettle | Purdue University Turfgrass Science at Purdue University

Henbit- Henbit | Purdue University Turfgrass Science at Purdue University

Creeping Charlie- Ground Ivy | Purdue University Turfgrass Science at Purdue University


----------



## Litsinger

First deadout of the year (#2016). 90% of the dead bees were on the bottom board, including the queen. As a feared, they had already commenced brood rearing.

Did a mite wash of 206 bees, came up with 10 mites (4.85%).

Despite the warm start to Winter, there was still plenty of capped reserves (12+ frames).


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> To be honest, these bloom cue are WAY too early for us too. In the past three years, here have been the dates I have observed:
> 
> Purple Deadnettle- 2.6 / 2.6 / 3.9
> Dandelion- 2.24 / 3.6 / 3.2
> 
> This is Kentucky weather for you- today's high is predicted to be 62 degrees and tomorrow night's low is predicted to be 18 degrees.
> 
> Also, I discovered what I am calling 'Purple Deadnettle' is actually 'Henbit', which is closely related. It appears that 'Creeping Charlie' is a distant cousin:
> 
> Purple Deadnettle- Purple Deadnettle | Purdue University Turfgrass Science at Purdue University
> 
> Henbit- Henbit | Purdue University Turfgrass Science at Purdue University
> 
> Creeping Charlie- Ground Ivy | Purdue University Turfgrass Science at Purdue University


Not a botonist, but I think we have all three. Lots of creeping charlie in my lawn, for sure. I like it, but have never seen bees on it.


----------



## Litsinger

Easy read in the latest Bee Culture by Dr. Jay Evans, exploring some of the recent scholarship surrounding viral tolerance.


----------



## James Lee

Litsinger said:


> Good presentation from Mr. Terry Combs courtesy of the Michigan Treatment Free Beekeepers group.
> 
> I think the ethos of the talk can be described by a quote that Terry attributed to Dr. Tom Seeley- _“We need to put beekeeping back into the hands of bees”._
> 
> A few highlights:
> 
> The Importance of Local Adaptation- At approximately the 00:16:45 mark, Terry presents his thoughts on the impact of local adaptation and the need for bees to retain a connection with their local environment, which includes experiencing the local pest and disease pressure. He remarks, _“Bees need the fight”._
> 
> His ‘Simple Recipe’ for Resistance Breeding- At approximately the 00:37:30 mark he outlines his recommended six (6) pillars for resistance breeding:
> 
> #1 Leverage your maternal survival line(s) and propagate from the best of the best.
> #2 Stop using chemicals.
> #3 Don’t feed.
> #4 Establish a permanent location with good forage and minimized exposure to agricultural chemicals.
> #5 Maintain smaller colonies. Here he subscribes to Dr. Seeley’s principles and there was a fair amount of pushback on this precept in the Q+A. Interesting and thought-provoking dialog.
> #6 Maintain Drone Mother colonies.
> Key Selection Characteristics- At approximately the 01:13:50 mark, Terry shared the top characteristics (in order of priority) he is looking for both going into the fall and into the spring:
> 
> Fall- Low mite loads, absence of disease, colony longevity and ability to self-provision.
> Spring- Seasonally-appropriate build-up, low mite loads, swarm impulse.
> The Exclusive Use of Swarm Cells- At various points throughout the presentation, Terry makes mention that over his 50 years of beekeeping, he has employed myriad methods of queen production and has concluded that swarm and supersedure cells are the best and most-appropriate method of propagation. He summarizes by saying, _“Take what they offer, and put them to use.” _


Hey Russ - thanks for summarizing this! I am glad you put this up for us - I had no idea you offered such a comprehensive review


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> First deadout of the year (#2016). 90% of the dead bees were on the bottom board, including the queen. As a feared, they had already commenced brood rearing.
> 
> Did a mite wash of 206 bees, came up with 10 mites (4.85%).
> 
> Despite the warm start to Winter, there was still plenty of capped reserves (12+ frames).


Russ
bummer on the loss.
there is a few dead outs. so just soak it up and move forward.
sometimes when the number of bees dwindle they brood for more knowing they have too few.
then need more heat and stores, part of the spiral

Was this hive a small one or a large one? the comb you show looks fairly dry .
hopefully you do not have many more.

I processed my first one already as well.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

thegospelisgood said:


> Hey Russ - thanks for summarizing this!


My pleasure. Thanks for the good content. When will you have the good Dr. Kefuss on?


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Was this hive a small one or a large one?


Thanks, GG. This colony went on the 'watch list' at the Fall mite drop assessment. Per the same evaluation, I am keeping a close eye on #2003, #1911 and #1803. 

This deadout continues a theme from last year- colonies with relatively high mite loads but little outward sign of disease fade-out as overwintering progresses, suggesting poor success at Winter bee rearing (shocking I know 😉).


----------



## James Lee

Litsinger said:


> My pleasure. Thanks for the good content. When will you have the good Dr. Kefuss on?


Dr. Kefuss was ready to go in June! We added to our number and things have been tough coordinating "bee" things. I would like to coordinate with him to present at our Winter conference this year - but again - coordinating with him in France is tricky!


----------



## Litsinger

James Lee said:


> I would like to coordinate with him to present at our Winter conference this year...


Please keep us posted- that is a discussion I would definitely like to listen-in on.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Did a mite wash of 206 bees, came up with 10 mites (4.85%).


Hey Russ,
What did you do technically to wash the dead?
Water?
Alcohol?

I should do the same on any dead outs.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> What did you do technically to wash the dead?


I normally use alcohol, but tried the Dawn detergent this time based on Randy's advice.

It worked o.k. but requires more agitation and then you have the suds to contend with. However, it is certainly a much less expensive approach.

To be fair, I got the idea from @squarepeg so he deserves the credit for (yet another) good idea.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> I normally use alcohol, but tried the Dawn detergent this time based on Randy's advice.
> 
> It worked o.k. but requires more agitation and then you have the suds to contend with. However, it is certainly a much less expensive approach.
> 
> To be fair, I got the idea from @squarepeg so he deserves the credit for (yet another) good idea.


I sort of wondered if there was a point to washing dead bees. Figured most of the mites would have dropped off.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I sort of wondered if there was a point to washing dead bees. Figured most of the mites would have dropped off.


Definately more 'armchair scientist' and might not withstand the rigors of peer review, but is at least a data point of colonies at a similar status (in this case early season deadout).


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> I sort of wondered if there was a point to washing dead bees.


If the reading is low - result is inconclusive (because it is either the mites dropped off OR there are only few mites OR both).
If the reading is high - the result is meaningful and useful (regardless if the mites dropped off or not, there there STILL plenty).
So, wash and see.

Not that I have anything to wash yet; a good thing.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> If the reading is low - result is inconclusive (because it is either the mites dropped off OR there are only few mites OR both).
> If the reading is high - the result is meaningful and useful (regardless if the mites dropped off or not, there there STILL plenty).
> So, wash and see.
> 
> Not that I have anything to wash yet; a good thing.


That makes sense. 

I have investigated the dead bees and the bottom board crud with a magnifying glass a few times.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> If the reading is high - the result is meaningful and useful


One thing to realize, however - in a smallish dead cluster there could be elevated concentration of mites (just because ALL remaining mites gathered in there). There could be say 100% infestation level!

Well - need to do some estimation based on the # of mites washed / total # of bees in the dead colony (approximate).

Really, the entire dead colony being at your disposal - the entire thing can be washed and done with.
That would be the best way and it is actually is doable.

Remember, we only wash a sample of live colonies because there is NO other way (the bees die and there is NO practical way to wash the entire colony regardless). But one can totally wash the entire dead bee pile and count most of the mites and count most all bees just by using a measuring cup.


----------



## Gray Goose

if you have a winter dead out , one additional thing that can be done is, on a clean table tap the frame a couple time cells up and down, on each side. this will dislodge any dead mite just in an empty cell. After the bee dies the mite is on it looks for a newbee  if it fails it ends up "somewhere" a few may be on the BB but I have tapped as many as 10 from each brood frame this shows mite that have not found a live bee. you get better results as it gets colder. if warm enough the bee flies out as it is dyeing to help the hive, mite still attached. so No Fly temps will allow you to see more of these mite dead still in the hive. I have read after a week the mite by itself dies from cold and no food. so after washing the remaining bees tap all the frames and see if you have 10 more or 100 more, again not prefect but a point of reference.

GG


----------



## James Lee

Gray Goose said:


> if you have a winter dead out , one additional thing that can be done is, on a clean table tap the frame a couple time cells up and down, on each side. this will dislodge any dead mite just in an empty cell. After the bee dies the mite is on it looks for a newbee  if it fails it ends up "somewhere" a few may be on the BB but I have tapped as many as 10 from each brood frame this shows mite that have not found a live bee. you get better results as it gets colder. if warm enough the bee flies out as it is dyeing to help the hive, mite still attached. so No Fly temps will allow you to see more of these mite dead still in the hive. I have read after a week the mite by itself dies from cold and no food. so after washing the remaining bees tap all the frames and see if you have 10 more or 100 more, again not prefect but a point of reference.
> 
> GG


I was wondering how long those little red commie buggers lasted post colony death.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ... so after washing the remaining bees tap all the frames and see if you have 10 more or 100 more, again not prefect but a point of reference.


Good idea, GG. Thanks for the input. Makes sense to me.


----------



## Litsinger

James Lee said:


> I was wondering how long those little red commie buggers lasted post colony death.


I'll venture they're like ****roaches- they'll be around after all the bees are spent, likely moved on to yet another new host.


----------



## GregB

So basically in a case of dead-out - the entire thing needs to be scooped up (including the floor) and shaken through (including frames) and everything washed in a bucket and sifted through a kitchen colander.

Get the best possible total mite #.
Get the best possible total bee estimate (# of cups x 600).
(Mite # / Bee #) = Infestation estimate.

Thinking here - washing the remnants of the last standing cluster might give a false elevated reading.
Thus, even a high count being valid (as I offered above) maybe too much off the target in other direction.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I'll venture they're like ****roaches- they'll be around after all the bees are spent, likely moved on to yet another new host.


I offer both mites and bees will be around a million years from now.
If a parasite is any good, it will adjust to keep its host alive and well.


----------



## crofter

GregB said:


> I offer both mites and bees will be around a million years from now.
> If a parasite is any good, it will adjust to keep its host alive and well.


I suppose that is possible but a more common model is the widely undulating balance similar to the snowshoe hare and foxes or with the arctic lemmings and foxes. It is when man gets involved and puts his demands upon what pure raw nature would otherwise take care of. He doesn't want to become part of a food chain that remains in a balance that includes things like brain worm or trichinelli!


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> I suppose that is possible but a more common model is the widely undulating balance similar to the snowshoe hare and foxes or with the arctic lemmings and foxes.


Where both the predator and the prey are generally "alive and well" in long term.
So it fits the premise still.

To be sure, none of these is of some "intelligent design".
Rather just randomized numbers and probabilities tossed about over time.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> To be sure, none of these is of some "intelligent design".


Well since this is my thread, I think I get to push back on this in a good-natured way without the risk of ending up in the 'tailgater' thread. 

While I'll grant you that we can't be sure of "intelligent design" we can't be sure of strictly random chance being the source of this amazing living planet we live on either.

What we can be sure of is that all lifeforms are currently adapting in response to the pressure that their environment is placing on them, and that we humans wield better than average influence in this arena, particularly in this industrialized age we are living in.


----------



## James Lee

Litsinger said:


> Well since this is my thread, I think I get to push back on this in a good-natured way without the risk of ending up in the 'tailgater' thread.
> 
> While I'll grant you that we can't be sure of "intelligent design" we can't be sure of strictly random chance being the source of this amazing living planet we live on either.
> 
> What we can be sure of is that all lifeforms are currently adapting in response to the pressure that their environment is placing on them, and that we humans wield better than average influence in this arena, particularly in this industrialized age we are living in.


I like your selective response as opposed to just being random.


----------



## Litsinger

James Lee said:


> I like your selective response as opposed to just being random.


Touché. Well-played, my friend.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Well since this is my thread, I think I get to push back on this in a good-natured way without the risk of ending up in the 'tailgater' thread.
> 
> While I'll grant you that we can't be sure of "intelligent design" we can't be sure of strictly random chance being the source of this amazing living planet we live on either.
> 
> What we can be sure of is that all lifeforms are currently adapting in response to the pressure that their environment is placing on them, and that we humans wield better than average influence in this arena, particularly in this industrialized age we are living in.


Afternoon @Litsinger
I'll also give a wee push on the last paragraph you stated.

with foxes and hares, one side gets low and it affects the other "in nature" IE when the foxes eat all the hares they having less food start a population decline to the point only a few are left, then the rabbits recover, etc... on and on.
this is intelligent design, self leveling of prey and predator.

So with bees there is a chance the mite would have reduced the bees enough by now, that the mite would have less food and be in a natural decline. BUT man has split and propagated/packaged the bees way beyond what Intelligent Design would have done.
So as the "mite food" is replenished by man, the Mites keep on growing. there is no balance, both are ramping up, one supported by Man (bees)and the other supported by mans support of the other. (Mites)

Unless the "better than average influence" you mentioned was "Bad" And I miss interpreted what you said.

In such man disturbed lifeform area, as beekeeping, the intelligent design is out the window. One could argue that cloning Gazelles and releasing many, many, of them would not reduce the lions but increase them. The intelligent design is trying to control the increasing Gazelles.

you have went from 0 to 40ish hives in the last 10 years, How many mites are you feeding, it was zero at some point .

Mite food for thought.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Unless the "better than average influence" you mentioned was "Bad" And I miss interpreted what you said.


Good post, GG. To be honest, I was a bit purposely obtuse in my response, recognizing that man can likely exert either good or bad influence upon the biosphere but honestly tends toward the bad due to our inherently selfish nature.

In my worldview, God created the universe and all the life therein declaring it all 'good'.

He then gave man a stewardship mandate and gave all life plants for food:

Genesis 1:28-29 - God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.

But as a result of sin this whole balance has been altered- so while I contend we see specters of this perfection in our current environment and the fingerprints of an intelligent designer all around, I suggest that we also unfortunately see the consequences of rational humanity, marred by an innate selfishness that permeates and impacts just about every aspect of life.

As to your point about the balance between mites and bees- I wholeheartedly agree with you. My selfish desire to keep 40 colonies in one location where I can see them out my bedroom window while simultaneously managing them for my own purposes puts a definite finger on the scales of the balance that nature is trying to develop. Shame on me.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Good post, GG. To be honest, I was a bit purposely obtuse in my response, recognizing that man can likely exert either good or bad influence upon the biosphere but honestly tends toward the bad due to our inherently selfish nature.
> 
> In my worldview, God created the universe and all the life therein declaring it all 'good'.
> 
> He then gave man a stewardship mandate and gave all life plants for food:
> 
> Genesis 1:28-29 - God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.
> 
> But as a result of sin this whole balance has been altered- so while I contend we see specters of this perfection in our current environment and the fingerprints of an intelligent designer all around, I suggest that we also unfortunately see the consequences of rational humanity, marred by an innate selfishness that permeates and impacts just about every aspect of life.
> 
> As to your point about the balance between mites and bees- I wholeheartedly agree with you. My selfish desire to keep 40 colonies in one location where I can see them out my bedroom window while simultaneously managing them for my own purposes puts a definite finger on the scales of the balance that nature is trying to develop. Shame on me.


I was not thinkin to "shame on you"
I also went from 20 to 40 to overcome losses so I am feeding 2 times the mites I once did.
Just wanted to point out the we cannot be fiddling with populations, and talking nature and balance as if we do not matter. 300 years ago there was Zero Mite food in the USA and Canada
totally agree with your post.
So lets then be good stewards.
I was just tweaking you a bit too keep you focused.

Have a great day.

GG

Have a great day.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I was just tweaking you a bit too keep you focused.


Please always feel welcome to keep me on my toes- I welcome it. 

The new paradigm relative to varroa mites reminds me of chestnut blight- the disease is so pervasive and effective that we were collectively left to wonder whether the American Chestnut could ever survive after being rendered effectively extinct. 

Thankfully, there were a small percentage of the trees which survived and display immunity to the disease (one such tree is in a neighboring county to me) and using germ from these trees and a little help from their Asian counterparts, it looks like my grandchildren might be able to once again see these majestic trees. 

And hopefully it is so with honey bees- while acknowledging the fact that they are not native to our shores, one can hope we are alive to see the day when bees and mites find an equitable balance... And I can shamefully harvest a good bit of surplus from the convenience of my home yard. 

Thanks again for the feedback. I hope you have a great day too.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I harvested all the mites for an assessment of mite damage when time will allow.


Had the opportunity to evaluate the mites this afternoon. I like conducting mite damage assays in the Winter for three reasons:

1. The cold weather mitigates the risk of mite damage being misappropriated to scavenging pests.
2. There is less mite drop and thus a more manageable number of mites to assay.
3. The phoretic nature of the mites and lack of hive activities (I think) allows the colonies to amplify 'mite biting' efforts.

Having conducted these assays for a few years now, I have begun focusing on the mouthparts and find that all colonies express fairly significant 'mite biting' behavior.

I have not employed this as a discrete evaluation tool, but rather as more of a screening tool to compare various stocks of unknown origin.


----------



## James Lee

Can't help but to think of Schwarzenegger looking at these nasty things..."You're one ugly...."


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Colony #1911 mite drop total of 125 is an outlier, and is reminiscent of the profile of colony #1910 last season. Similar to #1910 last year, colony #1911 has not swarmed, has built-up an epic bee population and has a commensurate spike in mite drop figures from March.





Litsinger said:


> #1911 has been the 'class of the apiary' this season and is still loaded with bees. It is reminiscent of #1910 which was a colossal unit last year that had high mite loads all summer and then failed late in the winter. I will continue to evaluate what sort of trends emerge, but the data may suggest that more modest hive volumes, allowing swarming and commensurately modest surplus gathering may be the balance that must be struck to continue to be reasonably successful in a TF context (in my setting).





Litsinger said:


> Per the same evaluation, I am keeping a close eye on #2003, #1911 and #1803.


So as of today, the attached photo identifies what remains of #1911. Dead ladies walking.

Two outlines of trends appear to be emerging based on the mite drop data collected to-date:

1. The mite drop counts at the Summer Solstice are proving to be one of the more reliable predictors of viability. Similar to Dr. Seeley's observations, a 24 hour drop much North of 30 likely portends trouble in my yard.

2. It may be difficult to simultaneously manage this current genetic stock both for TF viability and for high production. In the last two years, the equation for the best-performing colony in the yard has been:

No Swarming + High Productivity = Bad Outcome.


----------



## AR1

I wonder if spotting that big, productive hive and figuring out some specific management wouldn't get it over the hump. I seem to recall you saying you don't have much of a fall bloom. If so, I wonder if pulling the queen into a nuc in August or September and forcing her to start over without brood wouldn't be the trick. Then either recombine after enough time has passed, or even allow the main colony to go it's own way, making a new queen or staying queenless as luck happens. No loss if they are just going to die anyway.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> ... figuring out some specific management wouldn't get it over the hump.


Good idea, AR1. I like your thought.

More generally, the idea of recognizing trouble coming at the end of Spring based on the mite drop should prompt me to take proactive steps to manage these colonies differently if I conclude that they are genetic dead-ends. They can still be utilized as good production colonies, and like you suggest pulling the queen and giving them an early Summer brood break will do nothing but help the situation. Like you correctly noted, most years our flow is effectively over by the end of June anyway.

In very broad strokes, it seems there are two predominant genetic profiles that are appearing in the yard:

Type 1- Similar to #1911. More broody and seem to respond better to the addition of space to forestall swarming. Good at drawing-out comb. Also tend to start winter lower in the stack. Could simply reflect more of a commercial influence.

Type 2- Seem to slow down brood rearing when resources are not coming in. Once overwintered seem to be bent on casting a couple swarms. Rear winter bees early. Spend all winter at the top of the stack. Maybe more of a feral influence.

I'll plan on making more generalizations along these lines in future posts, but kind of makes me wonder if Dr. Seeley and Kirk Webster are not on to something- namely we might be better served guiding our selection efforts and management approaches toward a post-varroa bee that might look a lot different than the archetypical pre-varroa bee.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Type 1- Similar to #1911. More broody and seem to respond better to the addition of space to forestall swarming. Good at drawing-out comb. Also tend to start winter lower in the stack. Could simply reflect more of a commercial influence.
> 
> Type 2- Seem to slow down brood rearing when resources are not coming in. Once overwintered seem to be bent on casting a couple swarms. Rear winter bees early. Spend all winter at the top of the stack. Maybe more of a feral influence.


Me thinks, the Type 1 vs. Type 2 is a basic reflection of more locally acclimated bees vs. more seemingly imported bees.

Interestingly the Type 2 will vary location by location as well - due to the local/regional differences.
For me the Type 2 will be more like "northern-trending" bees that winter more efficiently vs. the "southern-trending" bees (those that flew about yesterday, January 12th, afternoon).

What is also interesting, however, that from the bee production side I can not easily dump the Type 1 either.
Honey still matters.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Type 1- Similar to #1911. More broody and seem to respond better to the addition of space to forestall swarming. Good at drawing-out comb. Also tend to start winter lower in the stack. Could simply reflect more of a commercial influence.
> 
> Type 2- Seem to slow down brood rearing when resources are not coming in. Once overwintered seem to be bent on casting a couple swarms. Rear winter bees early. Spend all winter at the top of the stack. Maybe more of a feral influence.
> 
> I'll plan on making more generalizations along these lines in future posts, but kind of makes me wonder if Dr. Seeley and Kirk Webster are not on to something- namely we might be better served guiding our selection efforts and management approaches toward a post-varroa bee that might look a lot different than the archetypical pre-varroa bee.


To make it clear, I am not advocating 'just let them die'. Quite the opposite. If you catch them early, remove the queen, all the current brood is over and done hatching out in a month. Mite reproduction at that point is done. No mite bombs (as long as they don't go laying worker). Queenless hives can make a lot of honey, maybe even in your weak fall flow environment...if they are not feeding brood? And the original queen is hopefully repopulating with lower mite levels and will be ready for a second round of honey production the following year.

However, if the original hive successfully requeens, there is limited advantage. My belief is that mites are well-adapted to the normal hive life cycle, and a month or two of brood break due to the requeening process merely slows them down for that short period. At that point some other 'treatment' is needed, whether removing the first-capped brood, drone brood removal, OA of the broodless hive. Something. 

Re your last comment, I wonder if we are just breeding for a bee that isn't good for anything but backyard hobby beekeepers. Nothing wrong with that, especially, but large honey crops are a nice thing too.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> I wonder if we are just breeding for a bee that isn't good for anything but backyard hobby beekeepers.


I doubt it very much that anyone is intentionally and specifically breeding bee for the backyard hobby beekeepers.
Backyarders are just getting what is given to them - as long as the bee is mild enough for the backyards, the rest does not matter much (nor the backyard'ers know any better).


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> Please always feel welcome to keep me on my toes- I welcome it.
> 
> The new paradigm relative to varroa mites reminds me of chestnut blight- the disease is so pervasive and effective that we were collectively left to wonder whether the American Chestnut could ever survive after being rendered effectively extinct.
> 
> Thankfully, there were a small percentage of the trees which survived and display immunity to the disease (one such tree is in a neighboring county to me) and using germ from these trees and a little help from their Asian counterparts, it looks like my grandchildren might be able to once again see these majestic trees.
> 
> And hopefully it is so with honey bees- while acknowledging the fact that they are not native to our shores, one can hope we are alive to see the day when bees and mites find an equitable balance... And I can shamefully harvest a good bit of surplus from the convenience of my home yard.
> 
> Thanks again for the feedback. I hope you have a great day too.
> 
> Russ


The American Chestnut is a good analogy. They were completely gone here by the mid 1920's. Dad would show me downed logs that (in the 1980's) that were still 2-3' in height. He said when he was a kid they were many that were 4-6' feet in diameter lying on the forest floor. When I spent a lot of time outside, I would occasionally see a 6-8' tree, coming back from roots where the trunks died 70-80 years ago. In 2010, a family friend was hunting nearby and happened on a clump of 8-10 coming from the same root. They were 3-4" in diameter and probably 15' high. We were both pretty stoked. The pines had been cut in the area and the undergrowth was dense. I haven't been back but a botany professor told me that if they were not scarring (sores down the side) that there was no hope.

I've thought of them several times and even ventured in once to find them a few years after he lead me to them. Half hour of fighting briars and I gave up. Still wonder how long they made it. Now and then and old root stock grows one long enough to fruit, but I only know of one such tree within 20-30 miles of home.

Thousands of folks are now doing the east-meets-west transition with bees. I do believe there is a bee that will put the mites to flight and/or deal with the viruses. Maintaining those traits in a meaningful way long enough to produce a bonafide breed that can be kept without treatments (even within isolation), I'm not sure about given the staggering number of variables. However, one thing at a time.

Going through yesterday, I lost a small nuc that I abused as a starter last March. It was unremarkable all year so I expected it. There were 3 strips of Apivar in a 6-frame nuc for the full course. I lost another large (double-deep) hive that I had not gotten around to treating though I intended to do so. It had >80lbs of stores, and a field mouse had taken up residence under a medium frame in the outside slot. A pretty close inspection did not reveal mite poop, and there were 8-10 dead bees in a fully drawn 20 frame hive. Could have absconded, mouse couldn't eaten dead bees, not sure. Either way, most of the others looked good. Some have barely began to brood, and I'd say most have a few hundred eggs (though I only pulled 2-3 frames).

My feral nuc with known mites (though not an accurate count) and an introduced Russian queen were among the 2 most active. My last winter check I didn't see the queen (and no brood) so I grabbed a tiny colony next door from an EZ Nuc (with active queen) and stuck them in the same box. Really not sure which queen is brooding up the box but they will have to be placed in a hive body in 2-3 weeks.

It's entirely possibly they are brooding up to leave intentionally, but they look healthy as any and growing. This is one I'll actually need to do due diligence and count mites, as the only thing done to this was the introduction of new genetics (though my second queen intro somewhat skewed my test result). There was a good crop of winter bees before this, I was just hunting homes (aside from EZ Nucs) and this made since.

Take care Russ


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> To make it clear, I am not advocating 'just let them die'. Quite the opposite. If you catch them early, remove the queen, all the current brood is over and done hatching out in a month. Mite reproduction at that point is done. No mite bombs (as long as they don't go laying worker). Queenless hives can make a lot of honey, maybe even in your weak fall flow environment...if they are not feeding brood? And the original queen is hopefully repopulating with lower mite levels and will be ready for a second round of honey production the following year.


Thanks, AR1. I think we are on the same page. I was simply elaborating that if the mite counts suggest the line is a dead-end, then one might as well make the most productive use of the colony by dequeening it and then possibly re-queening it after an appropriate period of time to take fullest advantage of the brood break from both a production and mite reduction strategy. Which is what I think you are saying, right?

In other words, rather than reactively letting them peter-out on their own, be proactive and use the situation to the fullest advantage- namely: increased honey production, a mite reset and the opportunity to re-queen them with more suitable genetics.

Again, good thought.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Honey still matters.


Doesn't it though. And while we all likely have a slightly different value proposition for our beekeeping, part of the equation no doubt involves some of the sweet stuff!


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> My feral nuc with known mites (though not an accurate count) and an introduced Russian queen were among the 2 most active. My last winter check I didn't see the queen (and no brood) so I grabbed a tiny colony next door from an EZ Nuc (with active queen) and stuck them in the same box. Really not sure which queen is brooding up the box but they will have to be placed in a hive body in 2-3 weeks.


Nice post, Joe. We still have some of the chestnut stump growth around here too, but they don't ever amount to much- which always surprises me to consider how this inoculum persists with so little host around. Must be analogous to AFB it that regard. One of the things I find humbling about the American Chestnut is the fact that it has been effectively gone so long, that there is no one alive who knows what sort of forest succession that it belongs to- so there is research underway to figure out what sort of forest management that will need to be done to even allow the chestnut to re-establish itself as King of the Eastern Forest should the new genetics become reliably viable.

It sounds like your colonies are about like mine in the anticipating Spring department. Yesterday got into the mid 50's around here and while the bees were not returning with much, the orientation flights and exuberance that the colonies seemed to be expressing was very reminiscent to those first heavy days of maple forage when the bees just seem to decide it's time to turn the corner. If only I could tell them that they ought to curb their enthusiasm and wait another month and they would comply...

The problem is, it appears that the trees are thinking the same thing- if I wasn't afraid of bitter cold over the next month, I'd be tempted to do my winter pruning already. The buds are definitely swelling. 

I might be more excited than you are to hear how your non-treated colonies fare. Do keep us posted if you don't mind.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Nothing wrong with that, especially, but large honey crops are a nice thing too.


AR1:

I think your point is sound and I think Greg is spot-on when he says:



GregB said:


> I doubt it very much that anyone is intentionally and specifically breeding bee for the backyard hobby beekeepers.


While I want to marinate in it a bit longer, I'm sort of wondering based on what I read and what I observe if the requirements of the average backyard beekeeper might not be best-served by an all-around generalist bee that is sort of at the 'golden mean' of where the local landrace bee wants to be- accepting that this might mean that they are swarmer than commercial stock and produce less surplus than commercial stock but are generally healthy, adapted to the local climate and forage conditions and don't require relentless artificial selection to maintain. This whole premise obviously pre-supposes the availability of a local landrace and limited genetic importation- in other words, a pipe dream.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Good idea, AR1. I like your thought.
> 
> More generally, the idea of recognizing trouble coming at the end of Spring based on the mite drop should prompt me to take proactive steps to manage these colonies differently if I conclude that they are genetic dead-ends. They can still be utilized as good production colonies, and like you suggest pulling the queen and giving them an early Summer brood break will do nothing but help the situation. Like you correctly noted, most years our flow is effectively over by the end of June anyway.
> 
> In very broad strokes, it seems there are two predominant genetic profiles that are appearing in the yard:
> 
> Type 1- Similar to #1911. More broody and seem to respond better to the addition of space to forestall swarming. Good at drawing-out comb. Also tend to start winter lower in the stack. Could simply reflect more of a commercial influence.
> 
> Type 2- Seem to slow down brood rearing when resources are not coming in. Once overwintered seem to be bent on casting a couple swarms. Rear winter bees early. Spend all winter at the top of the stack. Maybe more of a feral influence.
> 
> I'll plan on making more generalizations along these lines in future posts, but kind of makes me wonder if Dr. Seeley and Kirk Webster are not on to something- namely we might be better served guiding our selection efforts and management approaches toward a post-varroa bee that might look a lot different than the archetypical pre-varroa bee.


Just curious on your problem hive in Sept.
Why not just requeen it?

GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Just curious on your problem hive in Sept.
> Why not just requeen it?


Thanks, GG. I anticipated this question.

I suppose I continue to operate under the working assumption that maybe some of these colonies are going to express some varroa tolerance- and it does seem there has been some of this popping-up. For example I have not seen any external evidence of DWV in my colonies the last two years. 

But the more I read (and observe in my own conditions) the less convinced I am that tolerance is anything you can reliably hang your hat on.

Because in fairness, this prototype colony is not outwardly in trouble in September- there are little to no outward symptoms and the mite drops are always lower in September than they are in June.

But what I am picking-up on (at least with a limited dataset) is that the damage is already done by the September mite drop assessment.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Thanks, GG. I anticipated this question.
> 
> I suppose I continue to operate under the working assumption that maybe some of these colonies are going to express some varroa tolerance- and it does seem there has been some of this popping-up. For example I have not seen any external evidence of DWV in my colonies the last two years.
> 
> But the more I read (and observe in my own conditions) the less convinced I am that tolerance is anything you can reliably hang your hat on.
> 
> Because in fairness, this prototype colony is not outwardly in trouble in September- there are little to no outward symptoms and the mite drops are always lower in September than they are in June.
> 
> But what I am picking-up on (at least with a limited dataset) is that the damage is already done by the September mite drop assessment.


its done when the last bee dies.
What if you had a VSH queen in a NUC ready to go?

GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ... its done when the last bee dies.
> What if you had a VSH queen in a NUC ready to go?


Not a bad idea either- I have been trying to have one resource colony around for every two production colonies with the idea that they replace winter dead-outs. 

But you might be on to something- go ahead and take the loss in September and at least get some benefit out of the old bees still left in the production colony- with the caveat that winter brood rearing in the nuc probably needs to be wrapped-up or you're running into the problem of a dirty start at the worst possible time.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Not a bad idea either- I have been trying to have one resource colony around for every two production colonies with the idea that they replace winter dead-outs.
> 
> But you might be on to something- go ahead and take the loss in September and at least get some benefit out of the old bees still left in the production colony- with the caveat that winter brood rearing in the nuc probably needs to be wrapped-up or you're running into the problem of a dirty start at the worst possible time.


Just offering that there may be other paths to where you want to go
Once the hive is determined to have a dud colony in it, that hive and line is now "fodder" for the Apairy
the suggestion is think,, "Is there any Way you could shift these frames of bees today to better my Apairy?"
Lets say I had a 20 Frame Production hive found to be a dud, Barley started the first super and lots of mites, basically a dead hive walking. your path may vary but I might.
Take the loss, note the loss in the notes as mited out. OA the hive either Drip or vape, If you are strict TF shake the bees in soap water at night , freeze the frames add them a couple at a time to lighter hives. Make as close to mite less as you can. Study your smallest hives,, find 2 smallish NUCs that are light in stores, late swarm, late split or cutout. Maybe only 5 full frames. Newspaper combine it 2 trips 1/2 each time. to get from a 5F to 2 8F adding 11 frames to each. 11th frame is what ever I have, foundation to empty. Set up 2 *8X8 or 2 7X7 (with dummy frame)if the dud hive was weak . Arrange with stores to the top as a normal hive would. Now one was at dead hive walking, and 2 5 frame NUC with queens I want to test. changed to 2 better wintering hives. done with out comb storage issues.
here in Mich, the 5 framer are a bit light and I only get 50-50 to winter, with a lot of care and feeding.
the dead was gone any way, BUT 2 8x8 or 7x7 will have a way better chance at the "stress" commonly known as winter with more bees more stores and more comb height. SO the moment you decide this Queen &^%$#*, what ever your reason , Hot, swarmy, poor queen pattern over run with mite, 
Look to redeploy the assets. Cleanse, do not contaminate other hives, the issue,, if you can , add to the ones needing it, move forward. relative of fall combine , which is 2 little become 1 big, with better chance. , Also called equalizing, lots of writing on it. Kinda like horse racing, if a horse breaks a leg warming up, you take those bets and put them on the next best horse. Every thing in your apiary is a chess piece, Don't leave the rook in the corner till your queen is in check. 

GG


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> But you might be on to something- go ahead and take the loss in September and at least get some benefit out of the old bees still left in the production colony


I think the question to ask is where is the _value_? In your environment there is little value in a hive of bees past the flow in June. No summer or fall flows, so that hive is just sitting there consuming resources, producing mites. So the value is not in that massive hive full of bees/mites. It is concentrated in the queen who produced that massive hive in time for the spring flow.

A couple of possibilities: 
1 Do as I suggested above and separate the queen into a nuc, leaving the big hive full of bees to wither away. No direct loss since there isn't a flow anyway.
2 Split the heck out of that big hive into nucs and requeen the bunch of them. Anything that survives the winter is a plus, and if they die you have not lost anything since they were expected to die anyway. Might be a good time to buy a few queens, or to force your favorite queen to make a bunch of queen cells.


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## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> The problem is, it appears that the trees are thinking the same thing- if I wasn't afraid of bitter cold over the next month, I'd be tempted to do my winter pruning already. The buds are definitely swelling.
> 
> I might be more excited than you are to hear how your non-treated colonies fare. Do keep us posted if you don't mind.


I haven't noticed the budding much but other bees in the valleys nearby were bring in fresh pollen the first week of Jan. Like those guys I was uneasy after the temps turned cold and it appeared winter had set in for real. No idea where this will settle out. As for my bees I put on some pollen sub, and even some sugar (though only 2-3 were mildly necessary). I found what I expected, metered responses.

I'm a smidge excited. Here are a few videos of my experiment of queen-only intervention. Feral split frames were from early swarm at my brother's. Apologies in advance for the long post, after I started running down the feral lineage I realized I had shots of most of the process. 

April 19, 2019 - hived swarm for my brother from trees behind his house, looked Italian but very defensive (every encounter)


__
http://instagr.am/p/Bw3A-tBl_SC/

April 25, 2021 - picked up swarm from my brother's hive, moved out of nuc into double deep in 6-8 weeks (also had them babysit some frames of stores, so not all growth was strictly theirs)


__
http://instagr.am/p/COG94qDF4nO/

July 11, 2021 - pulled split from this feral double deep (with mites) added Russian queen (raised here)


__
http://instagr.am/p/CRNE2Botl9n/

Dec 3, 2021 - intro of second queen (with 1 frame of bees) from small nuc beside this nuc


__
http://instagr.am/p/CXCpnsDtwnW/

Jan 12, 2022 - colony as it stands, probably 1/2 frame combined larvae, maybe 200 capped worker cells


__
http://instagr.am/p/CYrGYzZKpnc/


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## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> Nice post, Joe. We still have some of the chestnut stump growth around here too, but they don't ever amount to much- which always surprises me to consider how this inoculum persists with so little host around. Must be analogous to AFB it that regard.


The chestnut blight lives in other species such as oaks, just does not kill anything else (that I am aware of) except American chestnut and the closely related chinquapin. Some estimate that stump sprouts could continue for hundreds of years. And clear cuts can allow sprouts to get large enough to bear nuts before the blight eventually gets them. Wife and I had a fun day about 15 years ago helping gather pollen from trees near the top of Brasstown Bald mountain in north Georgia.


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## joebeewhisperer

William Bagwell said:


> The chestnut blight lives in other species such as oaks, just does not kill anything else (that I am aware of) except American chestnut and the closely related chinquapin. Some estimate that stump sprouts could continue for hundreds of years. And clear cuts can allow sprouts to get large enough to bear nuts before the blight eventually gets them. Wife and I had a fun day about 15 years ago helping gather pollen from trees near the top of Brasstown Bald mountain in north Georgia.


Didn’t know how that worked. Thanks 😊 

That sounds like a great day.


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## msl

chestnut blight is a great example of what happens when something hops hosts and ecosystems .


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Every thing in your apiary is a chess piece, Don't leave the rook in the corner till your queen is in check.





AR1 said:


> I think the question to ask is where is the _value_?


Guys:

Great discussion. I really appreciate the advice and thought-provoking observations. The other thing I took away from your feedback is that the value of the intervention is very much seasonally-dependent. To borrow GG's analogy, the rook is of much more value to me as a weapon of offense (or threat thereof) early in the game rather than a defensive piece late in the game given it's inherent weakness (i.e. moving orthogonally). So appropriate deployment of resources at the right point in the game (or season in this case) is maybe at least as important as the move itself.

So back to the specific analogy of the broody colony that performs admirably early in the season but is identified as ill-equipped to keep the mite population in-check: it seems plain that the best course of action is to pull the queen immediately once the problem is identified.

Then, depending on one's goals and approach (i.e. honey production, apiary growth, chemical / mechanical interventions, etc.) and thoughts on whether these genetics need to hang around would largely dictate what happens next. 

Anything I am missing here? Thanks again for the input.

Russ


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Here are a few videos of my experiment of queen-only intervention.


Great post, Joe. I enjoyed watching the videos. Does most of your Russian stock tend toward the orange side in regards to coloring? Just curious based on the color of the queen and workers.

I see you are making fullest use of your poly nucs- based on what you are seeing, do you expect that they will be your 'go to' approach in the future?


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## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> And clear cuts can allow sprouts to get large enough to bear nuts before the blight eventually gets them.


William:

Thank you for the primer on the blight. Like Joe I was not aware that other trees were hosts. Good information to know. Interesting also to read that when other blight hosts are cleared-out, the trees can make more headway before dying-back. Thanks again.

How is everything faring in your apiary?



msl said:


> chestnut blight is a great example of what happens when something hops hosts and ecosystems.


True enough, MSL. I am often reminded (even in my own woodlot) that every decision I make has some impact. Whether selectively cutting to favor certain tree species, eradicating invasives or even driving my tractor in to haul out firewood, I am leaving my mark upon the environment. It is a good reminder to me to try to minimize my destructive impact and to hopefully make mindful decisions which in some small way help nature restore balance in areas where we have unfortunately contributed to upsetting it. 

Haven't heard much about your recent efforts- how are your community bee breeding efforts coming along?


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## msl

msl said:


> I reached out to over 3k beekeepers in the CSBA, invited them to take part in a simple state wide selection program, they just needed to take monthly mite washes. Guess how many followed threw....
> Not a ONE of them!!


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> I reached out to over 3k beekeepers in the CSBA, invited them to take part in a simple state wide selection program, they just needed to take monthly mite washes. Guess how many followed threw....
> Not a ONE of them!!


Whew... I missed this comment. That type of feedback doesn't project optimism that community selection programs are going to take off, does it?

Does this change how you are going to approach your selection efforts?


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> doesn't project optimism that community selection programs are going to take off


This is akin to "community gardens", etc.
I bailed a couple of years ago - hardly anyone wants to do the "community work" but most everyone wants the "free benefits".
Nothing new though.
Should know better.


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## msl

Yep... I knew better going in, but I was going to take my shot



> Everyone wants to save the world, but no one wants to help mom do the dishes." —P.J. O'Rourke





Litsinger said:


> Does this change how you are going to approach your selection efforts


yep... done

I will just go back to doing my own thing


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## crofter

msl said:


> Yep... I knew better going in, but I was going to take my shot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yep... done
> 
> I will just go back to doing my own thing


One of humans major problems: We strongly discount the value of future events in relation to the present. Hardwired in? Instincts valuable eons ago detrimental now and going forward.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> Yep... I knew better going in, but I was going to take my shot


As Teddy Roosevelt astutely observed in his 1899 'Strenuous Life' speech:

_'Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.'_

I applaud you taking the risk and investing the effort, even knowing it carried a high risk of failure. In my humble opinion, your own efforts will be better for it.

He finishes the speech by admonishing us to:

_'... therefore boldly face the life of strife, resolute to do our duty well and manfully; resolute to uphold righteousness by deed and by word; resolute to be both honest and brave, to serve high ideals, yet to use practical methods.' _

And it seems to me this is the message you've been consistently proclaiming. Best of success to you in your breeding effforts- I will look forward to reading about them here on Beesource.


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## crofter

Words to help you fight a bit longer;
Wounds that dont kill you outright, 
Make you stronger!


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## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> Great post, Joe. I enjoyed watching the videos. Does most of your Russian stock tend toward the orange side in regards to coloring? Just curious based on the color of the queen and workers.
> 
> I see you are making fullest use of your poly nucs- based on what you are seeing, do you expect that they will be your 'go to' approach in the future?


Appreciate all the time and effort you pour into keeping this thread lively. 

And yes, if I'm not breeding for color about half are orange with brown/black tips to the abdomen. Around 10-15% are almost jet black. The rest are tiger striped or veering toward one of the other two types. Just for giggles I grafted from black queens 2-3x. The first experiment was exactly like the others. The next 2 grafts made 40-50% black. Didn't keep up with enough details. Could have just been a coincidence, as we are talking about 25ish coming out of each graft. There is nothing of the yellow color of Italians, not one bit. It's a recognizably different orange. Workers are all over the map. Drones lean toward darker hues. 

I'm not sure I'll ever buy another wooden box. I may get a few unassembled for making a few sectional mating nucs. Part of the attraction towards poly is just heat. While checking on my double-decker colonies a few days ago, the ones on top outperformed the bottom as far as jumping into brooding a bit quicker. No surprise there, and even the bottom is pretty toasty compared to wood. If I was pulling lots of honey I would go with wood in the summer just because they are more forgiving swarm-wise (and their other good traits). But managing these 6 over 6 frames buys you a bit of time too, to make decisions on splits and such. I have a few extra deep boxes for spring/summer wiggle room, but I'm digging the polys currently.


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Appreciate all the time and effort you pour into keeping this thread lively.


Thanks for that, Joe. Truth be told, I'm only trying to hold down the fort until @squarepeg gets rested-up and resumes his rightful post as resident subject-matter expert.😎


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> How is everything faring in your apiary?


Not as good as last winter. One confirmed dead out a couple of months ago, three more recently I'm sure are gone. Crazy busy year, 10 hour days at work since spring and did not spend nearly as much time with bees as I did in 2020. Really need to update my thread! But it's so much easier to bang out a few sentences in someone else's


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## Gray Goose

joebeewhisperer said:


> And yes, if I'm not breeding for color about half are orange with brown/black tips to the abdomen. Around 10-15% are almost jet black. The rest are tiger striped or veering toward one of the other two types. Just for giggles I grafted from black queens 2-3x. The first experiment was exactly like the others. The next 2 grafts made 40-50% black. Didn't keep up with enough details. Could have just been a coincidence, as we are talking about 25ish coming out of each graft. There is nothing of the yellow color of Italians, not one bit. It's a recognizably different orange. Workers are all over the map. Drones lean toward darker hues.


I'm fond of the black tipped ones and the dark ish ones.
But your right they are all over on color.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> And yes, if I'm not breeding for color about half are orange with brown/black tips to the abdomen. Around 10-15% are almost jet black. The rest are tiger striped or veering toward one of the other two types.


This is interesting to me. If I remember correctly, you have brought in a couple of rounds of RHBBA stock right? Do you see the darker bees making more of an appearance the more generations removed you get from the imported stock?



joebeewhisperer said:


> I'm not sure I'll ever buy another wooden box.


 Well that is strong praise indeed- have you experienced ant problems in the summer? I know the poly boxes are made of tougher stuff than styrofoam insulation, but the carpenter ants have a field day with the top insulation around here if I leave it on too long.


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> Really need to update my thread!


I'll look forward to the update when you can spare the time- interested to read what you observed this year and what your goals are for this coming year. 

2021 certainly was a crazy 12 months.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Interesting summary presentation of the EurBeST study this morning. At the end of the formal presentation, Dr. Büchler summarized their results and recommendations as follows:


Summary published in the February 2022 ABJ (attached). The punchline:


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> This is interesting to me. If I remember correctly, you have brought in a couple of rounds of RHBBA stock right? Do you see the darker bees making more of an appearance the more generations removed you get from the imported stock?
> 
> Well that is strong praise indeed- have you experienced ant problems in the summer? I know the poly boxes are made of tougher stuff than styrofoam insulation, but the carpenter ants have a field day with the top insulation around here if I leave it on too long.


I'm still operating on my first round of RHBA imports with the second round paid for and shipment expected mid-May. I haven't really drawn any conclusions on successive generations being darker. I can say that based on the queens I raised, that you are much more likely to raise a dark queen from a dark queen, like several times more likely. But again, sample sizes would have to be at least a few hundred for me to rule out coincidence. 

I did see something interesting over last winter. I had a very dark queen in Nov that got much lighter, and one 5-6 nucs away (~5-6yd/m) which darkened up considerably over the winter months. 

I had a few thousand ants this week between a blue board and inner cover on a 10-frame wooden box, but haven't really noticed anything in the polys any worse than wood. Ants are usually hold up under the boxes, but I have many of them on some old 6x6" posts. Putting them on more lightweight angle iron or similar would at least for the ants that are mooching to go underground. When I say ants, I mean tiny, tiny ants.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> I did see something interesting over last winter. I had a very dark queen in Nov that got much lighter, and one 5-6 nucs away (~5-6yd/m) which darkened up considerably over the winter months.


That is interesting- I've never noticed this with queens per se, but I do note that the bees in my apiary tend to be darker through the winter months- makes me wonder if it is a function of the physiological differences between summer and winter bees?



joebeewhisperer said:


> When I say ants, I mean tiny, tiny ants.


We've got those dudes too- everywhere. Including above the inner covers, similar to the situation you described. But they don't ever seem to cause any trouble, only a nuisance. The carpenter ants however tunnel into the Styrofoam top insulation and make an all-out mess. I've always been a bit hesitant to try the poly equipment, primarily on this score. But the more I read about your experience with them, the more tempted I am to give a few a go.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> That is interesting- I've never noticed this with queens per se, but I do note that the bees in my apiary tend to be darker through the winter months- makes me wonder if it is a function of the physiological differences between summer and winter bees?
> 
> 
> 
> We've got those dudes too- everywhere. Including above the inner covers, similar to the situation you described. But they don't ever seem to cause any trouble, only a nuisance. The carpenter ants however tunnel into the Styrofoam top insulation and make an all-out mess. I've always been a bit hesitant to try the poly equipment, primarily on this score. But the more I read about your experience with them, the more tempted I am to give a few a go.


These are definitely harder, but not so hard a tunneling, determined ant couldn’t wreck them. Takes about $45 for the initial nuc, $20/ea for additional box, and $17 for a customer feeder which sits in the lid to find out. They come unassembled, but the shipping is still more than I like.

I put more of last year’s sensors in 2 hours ago, ahead of this storm/cold snap. It’s 40F and falling and the polys are a toasty 60F on top of the frames. Have a tiny one that only boosts about 10F, but compared to wood, they’re not even trying.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> I put more of last year’s sensors in 2 hours ago, ahead of this storm/cold snap. It’s 40F and falling and the polys are a toasty 60F on top of the frames. Have a tiny one that only boosts about 10F, but compared to wood, they’re not even trying.


It seems like this is where the polys really shine. May make a big impact with your Russians, particularly those that seem hardwired for small winter clusters.

Your post reminded me to download the temperature data on the reference colony. It is always interesting to me to see the delta begin to widen as the colony commences brood rearing. Thankfully it looks like this colony hasn't gotten too carried away yet...


----------



## Litsinger

So after a long and strange pandemic-inspired odyssey that took over a year, I finally got my honey house equipment and bulk woodenware order yesterday.

My general impression of the Lyson equipment is that it is very well-constructed and well-fitted but not heavily built. For example, the extractor is certainly more sophisticated than, but is no comparison to, the old Dadant extractors- at least in terms of material gauges used. 

I'd better get busy assembling woodenware- despite the cold spell we're currently experiencing, there are signs of Spring literally starting to pop-up- the jonaquils are already about 2" high.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I finally got my honey house equipment and bulk woodenware order yesterday.


So..... Russ is gone commercial now? 

Seriously, though, how long have you been at this particular run with zero chems, Russ?
Heck, it seems there were no particular problems expanding the yard.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> So..... Russ is gone commercial now?


Gone crazy is more like it... 

I got back into beekeeping the Spring of 2018 after an almost quarter century absence, and I'm not even close to declaring what I am doing is sustainable. Here are the few things I know:

1. I have been able to increase colony counts every year and this has all been done with swarm stock- a limited amount from outside the apiary and the bulk from within. No splits nor artificial queen rearing. This is not sustainable and is an area I need to get a better handle on.

2. This past year marks the first time I took off any surplus to speak of. While swarming and lack of drawn comb factor in, I think it safe to say the stock I am working with is not going to set any records for surplus production, at least not without the application of some selection pressure in this regard.

3. Mite drop levels recorded during the routine seasonal checkpoints appear to be on the rise. This might reflect seasonal variability, or might reflect a change in paradigm relative to higher hive density.

4. Colonies that are managed for production exhibit higher mite loads than those which are allowed to progress along a more 'natural' reproductive life cycle. There will likely need to be a balance struck between Items 2 - 4 that allows for stasis assuming there are no other relevant factors at work that I am not even yet aware of (disease pressure, viral dynamics, etc.).

So I am working with a 40 colony 'pig in a poke'. But I am grateful to still be experimenting with a non-chemical project at present.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> So after a long and strange pandemic-inspired odyssey that took over a year, I finally got my honey house equipment and bulk woodenware order yesterday.
> 
> My general impression of the Lyson equipment is that it is very well-constructed and well-fitted but not heavily built. For example, the extractor is certainly more sophisticated than, but is no comparison to, the old Dadant extractors- at least in terms of material gauges used.
> 
> I'd better get busy assembling woodenware- despite the cold spell we're currently experiencing, there are signs of Spring literally starting to pop-up- the jonaquils are already about 2" high.


winter work
hopefully the shop is heated.
looks like fun

GG


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I got back into beekeeping the Spring of 2018


So, this makes it *four (4)* seasons.
Spring of 2022 should be the season #5 (am pretty darn sure you will be OK).
Off the chems.
Anyone listening?
Certainly, this so-called "luck" is very much possible.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> 1. I have been able to increase colony counts every year and this has all been done with swarm stock- a limited amount from outside the apiary and the bulk from within. No splits nor artificial queen rearing. This is not sustainable and is an area I need to get a better handle on.


you may be surprised, If 20 hives gets you 5 swarms, the 40 will have 10 etc. Slow growth is better more digestible.

Have you ever done a full inspection where you find capped queen cells? these can be used for increase.

I would keep on doing what is working.
A different yard for hive density is a definite thing to consider.
It needs only to be 2 to 4 milers away.

GG


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> So, this makes it *four (4)* seasons.
> Spring of 2022 should be the season #5 (am pretty darn sure you will be OK).
> Off the chems.
> Anyone listening?
> Certainly, this so-called "luck" is very much possible.


lets hope the cadence lasts,, be better to evaluate at the 10 year mark.

GG


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> 4. Colonies that are managed for production exhibit higher mite loads than those which are allowed to progress along a more 'natural' reproductive life cycle. There will likely need to be a balance struck between Items 2 - 4 that allows for stasis assuming there are no other relevant factors at work that I am not even yet aware of (disease pressure, viral dynamics, etc.).


Based on my run, I very much see the same:

less desirable agriculturally (but hardy) colonies
less hardy (but more desirable agriculturally) colonies

Depending how the season 2022 develops (fingers crossed) we'll see how to keep and manage both.
I can see how I want ALL of them at once as a collection.
I have been a collector all my life anyway - started with coins (which I successfully squandered away, including a rear 1700-something coin, a bunch of 1800-something coins, etc). 
Looking back hurts.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> lets hope the cadence lasts,, be better to evaluate at the 10 year mark.
> 
> GG


But five (5) years is nothing to sniff at.
People drop out after 1-2 years and make global proclamations based on that routinely. 
The proclamations either way, to be sure - something IS or is NOT blah, blah....

Five year continuous run is getting out of that random zone.

To be sure it is not spring yet, but for Russ it is only a month away.
No way the next 1-2 months ~40 colonies are going to crash and burn.
Don't think so.
The time to crash and burn for 2021 is pretty much behind.

As far as the 10 year run - well, nothing prevents someone from bringing a Californian almond operation and setting it up next to Russ and severely impacting the local population.
That would probably mark the end of the story.
Can happen this summer, can happen in 2030, can never happen.
There is nothing you can do about random, life changing events in the future.


----------



## Litsinger

@Gray Goose and @GregB:

Thank you both for the feedback and encouragement over the past several years. I've learned a lot from you both, and I think I owe much of my present success to both Providence and the advice I've gotten from you guys and a lot of good folks here on Beesource. In answer to a few of your comments / questions:



Gray Goose said:


> hopefully the shop is heated.


It is not, but I've found it makes you work a little faster .


Gray Goose said:


> Have you ever done a full inspection where you find capped queen cells? these can be used for increase.


I do routinely find queen cells but up to this point I have simply noted them and allowed the colonies to swarm as they see fit. One of the goals this year is to experiment with Doolittle Nucs to try to both take advantage of the bee's reproductive impulse and exert more control over the timing (and stay off the ladder as much as possible).


GregB said:


> I can see how I want ALL of them at once as a collection.


This is my biggest quandary- I accept that I am unlikely to ever be able to out select Nature- but there are clearly some genetics that are maladapted. It seems reasonable that once these maladapted characteristics are understood and identified, it is prudent to proactively take steps to get them out of the apiary- but what if they have some mechanism(s) (i.e. tolerance) that the better-adapted stock could benefit from?



GregB said:


> There is nothing you can do about random, life changing events in the future.


This is so true. As a wise man once said, _"... don’t worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today’s trouble is enough for today."_

Or as my signature line declares, _'He who observes the wind will not sow, and he who regards the clouds will not reap.' _


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> This is my biggest quandary- I accept that I am unlikely to ever be able to out select Nature- but there are clearly some genetics that are maladapted. It seems reasonable that once these maladapted characteristics are understood and identified, it is prudent to proactively take steps to get them out of the apiary- *but what if they have some mechanism(s) (i.e. tolerance) that the better-adapted stock could benefit from?*


Exactly my thoughts too. LOL
This way I tend to keep around the most use-less (in a common agricultural sense) colonies.
Of course, this directly applies to my current VSH mother queen - a POS, useless queen if thought conventionally.


----------



## crofter

Time to go for it Russ;

Who studies and studies, and does not what he knows, is like one who plows and plows and never sows!


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> This way I tend to keep around the most use-less (in a common agricultural sense) colonies.


I suppose survival could be argued as a useful characteristic .


----------



## Litsinger

crofter said:


> Who studies and studies, and does not what he knows, is like one who plows and plows and never sows!


Right on target as usual, Frank. Thanks for the helpful nudge.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I suppose survival could be argued as a useful characteristic .


Though once an effective, long treatment plan is found, the survival part becomes less important and even "wasteful" - a popular opinion.
But I am still a collector of various use-less junk (including "use-less" bees).
How I am. 

Besides, never know!
Fashion changes on a spot.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> But I am still a collector of various use-less junk (including bees).


Thanks, Greg. I think I share your philosophy, and I was just having a little fun regarding the survival quip. Once we can finally get over the hurdle of keeping bees alive, then we can begin to peek over the horizon and ask ourselves, _"How do I make what I have better?"_

Which presents us with the quandary of,_ "What makes for a better bee in my location and my long-term management goals?" _

A harder question to answer in my mind than might appear on the surface.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Which presents us with the quandary of,_ "What makes for a better bee in my location and my long-term management goals?" _


I was indeed re-thinking lately - _What is my long-term management goals?_

So recently I adjusted my goal to remove "breeding" and to add "financial and logistical sustainability". I have been drifting towards this end, rather publicly.
A post topic for my own "blog" I guess.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> I was indeed re-thinking lately - _What is my long-term management goals?_
> 
> So recently I adjusted my goal to remove "breeding" and to add "financial and logistical sustainability". I have been drifting towards this end, rather publicly.
> A post topic for my own "blog" I guess.


having bees every spring AND being able to affect Increase at least to the point of loss, better to the point of slight gain IE 5-10 % is a great starting point. then if the whole thing is not an expense but a cash flow, even 500$ a year is better than many are doing.

tinkering for free is way more fun that tinkering at 2k-4k expense a year.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> So recently I adjusted my goal to remove "breeding" and to add "financial and logistical sustainability".


And FWIW, I think this is a reasonable and realistic goal- as your poll is touching on, we all keep bees for different reasons and measure success in many different ways.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> tinkering for free is way more fun that tinkering at 2k-4k expense a year.


Ain't that the truth!


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> having bees every spring AND being able to affect Increase at least to the point of loss, better to the point of slight gain IE 5-10 % is a great starting point. then if the whole thing is not an expense but a cash flow, even 500$ a year is better than many are doing.
> 
> tinkering for free is way more fun that tinkering at 2k-4k expense a year.
> 
> GG


I have been tinkering marginally for free for years as you know.
2-4K/year expense would be insane for me.
I guess some people are willing and able to do it - it is their deal and it is OK.

Still - doing a lot of driving between my seven yards - fuel and vehicular amortization is one very real expense to be covered.

But what got really old for me - I have all kinds of projects to work on (e.g. that vertical compact hive) - well, I never have enough bees at the summer start, thanks to "No Treatments" (bad fit for my specific location).

And thus instead of working on A, B and C - I per-annually have been working on "rebuilding the apiary" project.
OK, I can do it again, but do I care to do to it the N-th time????
Getting old.
Hopefully, 2022 will be different.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> In follow-up posts, I’ll outline each of these approaches in more detail and consider their implications in a TF breeding program.


Now that we are back in the thick of the Winter, I thought I'd work to wrap-up this survey of Dr. Kefuss' work- this is in-part inspired by an interview he recently gave:









Twitch


Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.




www.twitch.tv





The video itself offered a few little nuggets I had never heard him talk about before:

@ 9:00 he discusses his interactions with Dr. Ruttner relative to the Intermissa bees and the German Carniolan stock.

@17:00 he outlines a generalized three-year selection program.

@23:00 he describes selection criteria in a commercial-setting.

@38:00 he discusses his AFB work with Dr. Rothenbuhler. 

@ 50:00 he outlines his current operation- including some evaluation of daughters from his queens in China.

The interview starts in Italian- but then transitions to English.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Bond Test (BT) -1998 Bremen ‘Live and Let Die’. Advantage: Less work in the long-term. Disadvantage: High losses on a regular basis until resistance or tolerance appears. Took on average 11 hours to select for each breeder queen. High losses at the beginning but less work.


The ubiquitous ‘Bond Test’ seems to be equally venerated and maligned by many, often without a through understanding of the nuances of selection at the core of the effort.

Often subjected to reductionism and conflated with survival breeding, I contend the ‘Bond Test’ as developed by Dr. Kefuss is both little understood and little tried.

Contributing to the confusion might be the fact that the ‘Bond Test’ does share in some aspects of ‘Black Box’ propagation as Dr. Kefuss describes in his 2019 Apimondia presentation:

_‘All bond tests are ‘blind’ tests: 

1. Disadvantage- you may not know why your colonies survive.
2. Advantage- Unknown resistance mechanisms can express themselves.’_

The difference is that the ‘Bond Test’ does not stop at simply propagating from what survives, but is a focused breeding effort centered on three pillars:

Production- evaluated by pollen collection.
Disease Resistance- evaluated by freeze-killed hygienic behavior.
Mite Population Growth Mitigation- evaluated by counting the contents of 100 capped worker cells at purple-eyed stage (see attached PDF example of his spreadsheet- available upon request).
The fundamentals of the selection paradigm are best understood when Dr. Kefuss describes his first effort in developing his ‘Soft Bond’ protocol.

He started with a population of 420 colonies and began evaluation by first identifying the 100 best production colonies via pollen assay. From this group he identified the top 40 colonies relative to hygienic behavior. And from these 40 he chose the 20 which exhibited the least varroa infestation. He then re-queened the entire population from these 20 colonies which furnish the drones for next year, when the process is continued.

In other words, at it's core the 'Bond Test' is a systematic effort of routinely re-queening the population from the top 5% of the stock based on a systematic evaluation of production, disease resistance and low MPG.

That said, the ‘Bond Test’ is often described an untenable approach (even by Dr. Kefuss) for a couple reasons:

1. Significant losses at the outset- As Dr. Kefuss describes in the ‘World Varroa Challenge’:

_‘The “Bond” or “live and let die test” gave us clear results in our selection against mites, but due to fear most beekeepers (and scientists) refuse to use it. In that sense it is not a good test. For them it is like learning how to swim by jumping into boiling oil.’_

2. It may take a significant amount of time to achieve acceptable results- In ‘Keeping Bees That Keep Themselves’, Dr. Kefuss observes:

_‘The Bond test is slow but you probably end up selecting for more different types of resistance.’_

So where does the ‘Bond Test’ fit into the resistance breeding scene?

In Bomb vs Bond, Dr. Marla Spivak notes, _‘… the “Hard Bond” method can work for beekeepers in relatively isolated areas that start with a large number of colonies, are willing to take severe losses for a period of time, and know how to raise queens from surviving stock.’_

Next we will explore his 'Bond Accelerated Test' as a means to quickly screen for resistance.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> In Bomb vs Bond, Dr. Marla Spivak notes, _‘… the “Hard Bond” method can work *for beekeepers in relatively isolated areas that start with a large number of colonies,* are willing to take severe losses for a period of time, and know how to raise queens from surviving stock.’_


The essential "Bond" part which has been omitted by most previous "let them die" promoters:

large number of colonies available (hundreds at the least).
relative isolation afforded.
Basically, don't try this at home at your own_ little suburban_ backyard.


----------



## msl

GregB said:


> which has been omitted by most previous "let them die" promoters:


the weavers bonded out 1k hives and still didn't have enuff left to form a breeding population

the promoters also almost across the board omit selecting breeder queens by mite counts and hygienic behavior, mass grafting of those queens, and yearly requeeening the non breeder hives. the whole beekeeping and work thing that made the bond process work..


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> the whole beekeeping and work thing...


It does seem that these two are inexorably linked doesn't it... Good feedback.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Next we will explore his 'Bond Accelerated Test' as a means to quickly screen for resistance.


As many of us disappointingly know, screening for resistance by withholding treatments can be a long, difficult and painful process. Even at the individual colony level, colonies with some resistance and/or tolerance mechanisms can hang around for a year or two before fading out.

It was in response to this dynamic that Dr. Kefuss developed the 'Bond Accelerated Test'. Where the Bond Test is, 'Live and Let Die', the Bond Accelerated Test (BAT) is, 'Survive or Die Now'.

Dr. Kefuss would use the BAT to quickly screen colonies for resistance by inserting a frame with greater than 40 infested cells per 100 capped cells into the colony under test. In this way, he discovered that resistance (or lack thereof) would be known relatively quickly- typically within 6 months.

It is here that we see the mind and training of a scientist who happens to be a commercial operator come through. Dr. Kefuss laments that he can no longer employ the BAT because he has selected high mite population growth out of his lines and thus:

1. Has no ready source of high mite load frames.
2. Has lost out on the opportunity to explore tolerance factors and/or conduct crossing experiments to help identify the specific mechanism(s) at work conferring resistance.

He talks about these specific considerations starting at about 39:30 to about 41:30 in the Treatment-Free Beekeeping podcast and suggests that he should have kept some of these high mite growth lines around.

When I asked him by personal correspondence to expound upon this, he noted:

_'The advantage of having high mite population growth (MPG) hives is that they do help maintain mite levels for continued selection pressure. The main thing is not to let their genetics interfere with your resistance selection program. They would be a good way to select for tolerance if they don’t die out. So you could be selecting for both resistance and tolerance at the same time instead of just resistance.'_

Beyond the carnage that the BAT would no doubt unleash in many operations, Dr. Kefuss also offers that the BAT suffers from one key flaw: The results are too fast to select for long-term resistance mechanisms.

I think it is to this point that many beekeepers can instinctively identify with, and it is to this open question of softening the edges (both in terms of losses and time) that Dr. Kefuss began promoting the 'Soft Bond Test'- which we will explore next.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Still no progress after years?


----------



## Litsinger

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Still no progress after years?


Bernhard:

I sincerely hope all is well with you and your family. Good to see you on the boards again.

I endeavor to post my unvarnished results (both good and bad) for folks to make their own conclusions.

Please always feel welcome to offer your suggestions and constructive criticism- I've always valued your opinion.

Have a great week.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Winter in Western Kentucky is a lot like running wind-sprints- short bursts of significant cold followed by extended relatively mild weather, with rapid weather changes in between.

This week we look forward to midweek daytime highs above 60 only to stare down the prospect of single digit lows by the end of the week.

While we are in the midst of a mild streak I thought it prudent to conduct a quick assessment of the colonies.

To-date, there are 36 colonies still kicking, down from a season high of 40. The losses are represented by one cast swarm that had a queen failure, one struggling colony that was shook out in the Fall, and two Winter dead-outs thus far.

The colonies are housed as follows:

23 - 8 frame Langstroth
8 - Warre
3 - 10 frame Langstroth
2 - 5 frame Langstroth

There were two colonies (2110 and 2111) which were equipped with makeshift bottom boards (photos attached), and I took the opportunity to utilize the screened bottom boards from the dead-outs to get them properly equipped.

Interior temperatures are starting to creep up relative to the ambient temperature in the reference colony (2011) and there is evidence in many of the colonies that brood rearing has commenced in earnest.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I endeavor to post my unvarnished results (both good and bad) for folks to make their own conclusions.



Which makes following this particular (per-annual now) report worthwhile.
Everyone only gains from similar reporting - with the consistent updates and the numeric facts attached (all of these within a very specific and known location context).
Reports like this one are in short-supply and therefore are of value, however trivial this reporting may sound to some.


----------



## Litsinger

Cool update from across the pond by the Westerham Beekeepers regarding their community-scale resistance breeding efforts:

Identifying Varroa Resistant Bees

_'The project, which was planned in 2017 after meeting Dr. Ralph Buchler at Gormanston that year, started for the 2018 season with a group of like-minded beekeepers.'_

Based on the results presented, it looks to be approximately 8 hobby/sideline-scale beekeepers managing approximately 40 breeder colonies.

The protocol developed has four phases:

Phase 1- Beekeeping Without Chemical Miticides
Phase 2- Identify Bees That Can Cope With Varroa
Phase 3- Breed From Bees That Can Cope With Varroa
Phase 4- Sustainable Treatment-Free Beekeeping Without Beekeeper Intervention

Their general selection guidelines are as follows:

_'... identifying traits of varroa resistance from bees that have already demonstrated uncapping and low mite loads. We also like to see good bee health, evidenced by strong foraging and brood development in the spring, plus gentle temperament.' _

Their results thus far:

_'We were very pleased with the outcome. A loss rate of under half of those in the South East, most of which are treated bees. Importantly, we now had a strong genetic base from which to expand our own stocks and throughout the region. _

_These were all our own local queens_
_Colonies / apiaries had raised their own queens for a minimum of 3 years_
_There were no (or low) genetic disturbances from queens imported into the area_
_Colonies were spread out over c.50sq miles (see map below)_
_Only 3 out of 8 apiaries shared any local “mating areas”, so most apiaries were unconnected_
_Temperament was good_
_Honey yields were consistent with previous years (allowing for weather)'_


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Westerham Beekeepers regarding their community-scale resistance breeding efforts:


People can actually do things in a communal way.
But here in the US - oh man...


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> People can actually do things in a communal way.
> But here in the US - oh man...


In my humble opinion I think it could be done here but would require a special group of individuals willing to invest the time and resources to make it happen.

Hey, if the Brits can do it and our neighbors to the North can do it, surely we can!


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> In my humble opinion I think it could be done here but would require a special group of individuals willing to invest the time and resources to make it happen.
> 
> Hey, if the Brits can do it and our neighbors to the North can do it, surely we can!


You may as well be correct, Russ.
Just the approach should scientific and systemic and analytical - not "let them die" backyard level type (without responsible reporting back).


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Just the approach should scientific and systemic and analytical - not "let them die" backyard level type (without responsible reporting back).


Greg- I agree with you. Your feedback is timely as it relates to a couple of loose threads I can tie together.

I recently received a French language publication from Dr. Kefuss (attached) which spelled-out in further detail some additional aspects of his work with the Intermissa / Carnica lines which ultimately formed the basis for his TF program. In it I found that this line actually has a breeder number (Kvar93) and that it has found it's way into the Buckfast breeding program (here's an example):






JBB-17 - Honeybee Pedigree of Jürgen Brauße (DE) - 2017


JBB-17 - Honeybee Pedigree of Jürgen Brauße (DE) - 2017




perso.unamur.be





It should also be noted that this line did not perform well in the selection efforts of this particular breeder:





__





Imkerei Brauße in Blankensee TF » Werdegang der Pool Völker






www.apis-brausse.de





This in-turn led me to the work of another famous Buckfast breeder- Paul Jungels.

On his site he has a presentation entitled, 'Varroa Resistance Is Not a Pipedream' and he makes this observation:

_'Resistance can actually be achieved within a few generations. If we are not there today, it is not least due to the fact that there has been no cooperation between experienced breeding practitioners and science in Europe.'_

So it would appear that the issue of consensus-building and meaningful collaboration is more of a human problem than a cultural one.

A few other interesting observations from Jungels presentation:

_Where can you find VSH?

Hereditary dispositions for VSH can be found in many origins of our Buckfast and Carnica bees, also in land[race] bees, also in your bees! 

They inherit additively, i.e. the more dispositions there are in the colony, the more pronounced the VSH behavior becomes.

Unfortunately, they are scattered, often only in individual bees of a colony.

An unmistakable sign is from closed brood in spring to increasingly mosaic-like brood in the year at the end of July (brood gaps in the capped brood as it matures), after treatment +/- closed brood again.

After several generations of controlled mating AND by selecting for the characteristic we are approaching this ideal: phenotype = genotype, i.e. colony and all offspring have the characteristic._


----------



## Litsinger

Cool presentation from this year's National Honey Show posted today from Torben Schiffer of pseudoscorpion fame.

The central premise of his talk is the famous axiom by Kentucky's own Wendell Berry, _We cannot know what we are doing until we know what nature would be doing if we were doing nothing._

Building on this theme, Torben spent time studying feral colonies in natural settings with an endoscope in an attempt to learn more about their behaviors.

Two significant precepts came out of this presentation that I found very interesting:

The first is the idea of 'storage security' and his assertion that certain colony behaviors such as grooming, washboarding and propolis collection/application are only engaged in earnest when the colony has established an adequate surplus in the proper location. Thus he concludes that our management practices to maximize surplus gathering seek to work against the expression of behaviors that might help support mite and disease management.

The second idea is that the net effect of our selection efforts on a landscape scale are having a deleterious effect on the fitness of the beekeeping population as a whole, relative to their ability to survive unmanaged. 

Well worth watching in my opinion.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Cool presentation from this year's National Honey Show posted today from Torben Schiffer of pseudoscorpion fame.
> 
> The central premise of his talk is the famous axiom by Kentucky's own Wendell Berry, _We cannot know what we are doing until we know what nature would be doing if we were doing nothing._
> 
> Building on this theme, Torben spent time studying feral colonies in natural settings with an endoscope in an attempt to learn more about their behaviors.
> 
> Two significant precepts came out of this presentation that I found very interesting:
> 
> The first is the idea of 'storage security' and his assertion that certain colony behaviors such as grooming, washboarding and propolis collection/application are only engaged in earnest when the colony has established an adequate surplus in the proper location. Thus he concludes that our management practices to maximize surplus gathering seek to work against the expression of behaviors that might help support mite and disease management.
> 
> The second idea is that the net effect of our selection efforts on a landscape scale are having a deleterious effect on the fitness of the beekeeping population as a whole, relative to their ability to survive unmanaged.
> 
> Well worth watching in my opinion.


At about 10 minutes in he talks of his 'lazy' bees, that in fact were excessively grooming. They did not build up or store much honey, but were resistant to varroa mites. Spending all their extra energy grooming.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Cool presentation from this year's National Honey Show posted today from Torben Schiffer of pseudoscorpion fame.
> 
> The central premise of his talk is the famous axiom by Kentucky's own Wendell Berry, _We cannot know what we are doing until we know what nature would be doing if we were doing nothing._
> 
> Building on this theme, Torben spent time studying feral colonies in natural settings with an endoscope in an attempt to learn more about their behaviors.
> 
> Two significant precepts came out of this presentation that I found very interesting:
> 
> The first is the idea of 'storage security' and his assertion that certain colony behaviors such as grooming, washboarding and propolis collection/application are only engaged in earnest when the colony has established an adequate surplus in the proper location. Thus he concludes that our management practices to maximize surplus gathering seek to work against the expression of behaviors that might help support mite and disease management.
> 
> The second idea is that the net effect of our selection efforts on a landscape scale are having a deleterious effect on the fitness of the beekeeping population as a whole, relative to their ability to survive unmanaged.
> 
> Well worth watching in my opinion.


good listen
notes:
I have a "washboarding hive that had no stores
concept of "storage security".
selection for "frames" with bees, never though of that angle.
8F is 20% lees door then 10F 80 vrs 64 SQ cm
deselected for the "look"
the "natural pool " is in hive boxes.
off the ground, so my shed is ok after all.
wow burned his hives seems to support "rewilding"


liked the talk, 
comb start from the top, so a Nadir late summer is better than a super.
helped explain some of my observations.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> At about 10 minutes in he talks of his 'lazy' bees, that in fact were excessively grooming. They did not build up or store much honey, but were resistant to varroa mites. Spending all their extra energy grooming.





Gray Goose said:


> I have a "washboarding hive that had no stores
> concept of "storage security".


You all caught me being imprecise, and I appreciate you pointing it out- I should have clarified that the appropriate hierarchy of tasks would be expected to be exhibited by colonies that are selected for survival in their particular setting. From his presentation I took him to mean that colonies which do not adequately provision before beginning grooming, washboarding, propolis application, etc. are not exhibiting proper survival characteristics for their environment.

Bigger picture- his comment that, _'There is no such thing as lazy bees, it's always based on what kind of behavior they are showing in what phase of their lives. Sometimes it is an unwanted behavior for the beekeeper but is a vital behavior for themselves.'_



Gray Goose said:


> ... helped explain some of my observations.


Helped inform some of my observations too.

Specifically, maybe a big part of the concept of Dr. Seeley's 'Darwinian Beekeeping' is not just a function of smaller hive volumes and the attendant smaller populations per se, but also reflects the results of storage security. If I am managing a colony for maximum honey production by exploiting the colony's need for storage security, I might also be forestalling their resource allocation toward activities that help promote health and disease resistance.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> You all caught me being imprecise, and I appreciate you pointing it out- I should have clarified that the appropriate hierarchy of tasks would be expected to be exhibited by colonies that are selected for survival in their particular setting. From his presentation I took him to mean that colonies which do not adequately provision before beginning grooming, washboarding, propolis application, etc. are not exhibiting proper survival characteristics for their environment.
> 
> Bigger picture- his comment that, _'There is no such thing as lazy bees, it's always based on what kind of behavior they are showing in what phase of their lives. Sometimes it is an unwanted behavior for the beekeeper but is a vital behavior for themselves.'_
> 
> 
> 
> Helped inform some of my observations too.
> 
> Specifically, maybe a big part of the concept of Dr. Seeley's 'Darwinian Beekeeping' is not just a function of smaller hive volumes and the attendant smaller populations per se, but also reflects the results of storage security. If I am managing a colony for maximum honey production by exploiting the colony's need for storage security, I might also be forestalling their resource allocation toward activities that help promote health and disease resistance.


so he has found 200 wild hives in Germany.
I would be interested in a real study of the Applications.
Humans have been adding bees there for 200 years.
And I bet there are a good number of hollow trees, Old barns etc.
wonder if he would bee interested to come study the Appla bee species.
once the bees have 3 or 400 trees and a base I would think they slowly expand into "free space" and the whole thing resembles the German area he is studying.

why would they act different?

GG


----------



## crofter

Bees with a high propensity to uncap varro infested brood can show stalled growth. Take the mite count down by suitable means and the shotgun pattern goes away and colony recovers and grows well. Nothing wrong with the bees genetics but they will only do well above a certain threshold level of mites. Those will not be the bees that do well in small colonies. Had this experience with one of my first year nucleus colonies.

Adaptive habits successful in some scenarios would be fatal in others. This is one of the things that makes the "perfect bee" nothing but a mirage!


----------



## Litsinger

crofter said:


> Adaptive habits successful in some scenarios would be fatal in others. This is one of the things that makes the "perfect bee" nothing but a mirage!


As Cory Steven's often remarks (quoting Thomas Sowell): 'There are no solutions, only trade-offs.'


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I would think they slowly expand into "free space" and the whole thing resembles the German area he is studying.


And given that the US does not have any state-mandated pedigree standards and the Appalachians still contain vast swaths of old-growth forest, I'd say conditions are generally better here for landscape-level landrace development than they are in most parts of Germany.


----------



## Gray Goose

Hi Russ.

ok finally got the handles on and the paint.
gray and while Kills 2 ,,added 4 tbs of orange to a 1/2 can of white to get the light orange.

I like to have them all different, hopefully less drift.

















i also am painting scrap (2x2) for entrance reducer, sometimes use 2 on one side.
any thing to offer better orientation. BBs have a coat of propolis tincture, as do the lids.
dark end of the BB board was the end of the log, so some are painted some are not.
bottom shallow box is the slatted rack. BTW these are 8F
16 deep frames and 8 shallow frames is my current winter config, 24 inch deep frame if it was one

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ok finally got the handles on and the paint.


They look awesome, GG. If I hadn't been beaten into a quivering pile of goo in engineering school, I would definitely utilize the alternating colors as a drift-mitigation strategy. As it is, I start having involuntary tremors when I see anything outside of uniformity spec - at least in my own operation. 

Remind me again- how tall are your slatted rack/debris trays? And how do you access them- a door in the back?


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> They look awesome, GG. If I hadn't been beaten into a quivering pile of goo in engineering school, I would definitely utilize the alternating colors as a drift-mitigation strategy. As it is, I start having involuntary tremors when I see anything outside of uniformity spec - at least in my own operation.
> 
> Remind me again- how tall are your slatted rack/debris trays? And how do you access them- a door in the back?


4.75 inch as I recall
no access.
if debris builds up i'll need to sweep it out.
my other solid BBs are clean, So I anticipate a spring sweep only.

if that does not work then a drawer BB will ne be constructed.
Not sure if it is needed at this point.
not sure I have any 2 hives the same  I guess I am non uniform. 

wanted to lift the cluster away from the entrance a bit, have extra cluster space and air, so it is just a box with 6 slats, same height as the box, frame 1 and 8 will be open under. so like wood frame extensions.
A super of comb would do the same thing.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> wanted to lift the cluster away from the entrance a bit, have extra cluster space and air, so it is just a box with 6 slats, same height as the box, frame 1 and 8 will be open under. so like wood frame extensions.


Makes good sense to me, GG. The biggest difference I have observed slatted rack versus none has been the reduction in bearding- with an impressive number of bees loosely clustered below the rack instead of presumably outside.

While you all may not have SHB like we do down here, I know I sometimes get in trouble with my trays when I am not checking them frequently and pollen, cappings, etc. accumulate- they turn into a larval spawning ground . That said, it sounds like your bees will have access all the way to the bottom of the debris tray, right? So may be a non-issue for you.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Makes good sense to me, GG. The biggest difference I have observed slatted rack versus none has been the reduction in bearding- with an impressive number of bees loosely clustered below the rack instead of presumably outside.
> 
> While you all may not have SHB like we do down here, I know I sometimes get in trouble with my trays when I am not checking them frequently and pollen, cappings, etc. accumulate- they turn into a larval spawning ground . That said, it sounds like your bees will have access all the way to the bottom of the debris tray, right? So may be a non-issue for you.


the "slatted rack" sets on the SBB
I'll check it mid season, but I do not expect any more debris that a regular BB

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> the "slatted rack" sets on the SBB


And just to be abundantly clear, in this case 'SBB' stands for solid bottom board and not screened bottom board, right?


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> And just to be abundantly clear, in this case 'SBB' stands for solid bottom board and not screened bottom board, right?


yes


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> And just to be abundantly clear, in this case 'SBB' stands for solid bottom board and not screened bottom board, right?


I propose SrBB and SoBB as clarification for this issue. Promise not to sob if SOB's reject my idea


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> I propose SrBB and SoBB as clarification for this issue. Promise not to sob if SOB's reject my idea


William:

This is the funniest thing I've read on Beesource in awhile- well played, my friend!


----------



## Litsinger

Things are starting to percolate here near the confluence of the Ohio, Tennessee and Clarks Rivers. Today has been a beautiful day of sunny skies and a high in the low 60's. Lot's of housekeeping and orienting going on with all the colonies, a fair amount of dirty yellow pollen inbound and I wouldn't swear there's not a little nectar coming in too.

1903 is off to another early start and has tended to be one of the first out of the gate the last three years:






It's days like this that make me start hyperventilating as I stare at the formidable stack of unassembled hive bodies and frames still stacked-up in my garage. Better get busy!


----------



## crofter

Litsinger said:


> Things are starting to percolate here near the confluence of the Ohio, Tennessee and Clarks Rivers. Today has been a beautiful day of sunny skies and a high in the low 60's. Lot's of housekeeping and orienting going on with all the colonies, a fair amount of dirty yellow pollen inbound and I wouldn't swear there's not a little nectar coming in too.
> 
> 1903 is off to another early start and has tended to be one of the first out of the gate the last three years:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's days like this that make me start hyperventilating as I stare at the formidable stack of unassembled hive bodies and frames still stacked-up in my garage. Better get busy!


Russ, put on an instructional workshop (for a fee of course) and get people to come and assemble them. Tom Sawyer style. Maybe Gray Goose could come down and whip the crew for you.


----------



## Gray Goose

crofter said:


> Russ, put on an instructional workshop (for a fee of course) and get people to come and assemble them. Tom Sawyer style. Maybe Gray Goose could come down and whip the crew for you.


Awesome idea
hive building workshop
on the cheap only 25$ per day.



GG


----------



## Litsinger

crofter said:


> Russ, put on an instructional workshop (for a fee of course) and get people to come and assemble them. Tom Sawyer style. Maybe Gray Goose could come down and whip the crew for you.


Frank: I've always known that you are the brains of the operation around here, and this post just proves it- practically perfect in every way!


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> 1903 is off to another early start and has tended to be one of the first out of the gate the last three years:


Kentuckian tropics.
February 9th, 2022.


It was good eight weeks before the sleepy bees crawled out from under snow in some Wisconsin backyard. Yawning and stretching and dropping those nasty smelling spots all over.
How the season 2022 story began...


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Kentuckian tropics.
> February 9th, 2022.


It's the tale of two cities- tonight will be in the 20's and this weekend the highs are back to the 30's with lows in the teens.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> It's the tale of two cities- tonight will be in the 20's and this weekend the highs are back to the 30's with lows in the teens.


But the toilet flushing business was taken care of.
Always good.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> But the toilet flushing business was taken care of.
> Always good.


Definately true- I notice they also use this time to move stores around. I used to freak out when they immediately clustered at the top of the stack until I figured out that they use the milder days to regroup. So now I just try not to reorganize the stores too late in the year and leave it alone, often with more stores in the second rather than the top box.


----------



## Litsinger

I've had these photos on my desktop for some time, waiting for a reason to post them.

Since I'm in spring cleaning mode and it's still cold outside I thought today was as good a day as any.

I see this kind of chewing behavior in several of the colonies in my apiary but these two (#1912 and #2005) exhibited the most last season.

Anyone else see this kind of stuff in their bees? Here I tend to see it at the entrances and the square outside corner of the frame rests.


----------



## Gray Goose

yes i have seen it on the inside bottom edge of the hive next to the entrance.

maybe a spare time activity

GG


----------



## gww

Almost looks like mouse work but yes the bees will make/widen holes. I notice most of their work on corners, weak spots where boxes meet or making knot holes bigger. Hope you are well.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Hope you are well.


We are well by God's grace, GWW. How are you all faring across the river?

Haven't seen an update from you in awhile- everything coming along in the beeyard?


----------



## crofter

gww said:


> Almost looks like mouse work but yes the bees will make/widen holes. I notice most of their work on corners, weak spots where boxes meet or making knot holes bigger. Hope you are well.
> Cheers
> gww


Glen; Maybe Russ's genetics are shifting toward carpenter bees! They should be fierce mitebiters but dont even think about putting them in poly hives.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I see this kind of *chewing behavior* in several of the colonies in my apiary but these two (#1912 and #2005) exhibited the most last season.


Actually, a good friend by BS name *Nordak *did mention more than once how his bees bit him.
Nordak was (still is?) a TF beekeeper from AR.
Been a while since he checked in here.
I am unsure what happened to him?

Anyway, his bees have been some biters - they would bite right into the hand.
Nordak actually complained of his bees as they would deliver some painful bites as he described.
So, those biting/chewing bees could very well have a desired TF trait.
I had some TF queens from him and wasted them as the queens could not withstand the mite pressure and the line dilution around here for very long.

@Litsinger, I would actually keep track of those chewing bees in relation to any other desired traits (e.g. mite counts).


----------



## gww

The trees are not budding yet and the last of our snow is hanging around in shady places. I have had pollen in previous years at this time. So winter came slow and is leaving slow as far as maples are concerned. I have not looked to even see if any bees are alive. I need to at least look tomorrow at my chicken feed, it should be warm enough for flight but supposed to snow 1 to 3 Thursday.
Nothing to report good or bad as I just don't know. I have a bit of a bad feeling as I took a lot of their stores and it stayed mighty warm after we had had a frost and I am sure that caused more consumption.
Cheers
gww
ps It is just so muddy out.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

William Bagwell said:


> I propose SrBB and SoBB as clarification for this issue. Promise not to sob if SOB's reject my idea


I've been thinking something like this for ages. I've seen people on about screened or solid and whoever was using board used SBB. I have officially adopted SrBB and SoBB to distinguish the 2 styles. 

Reminds me a bit of my last name though. It is Swiss-German and pronounced with a long "o". I have explained this hundreds of times to teachers, bosses and whom it may concern. Now I'll be explaining SrBB and SoBB after using them, but totally worth it. 

In our neck of the woods you can tell the city-slicker, revenuers, or other non-natives by the way they pronounce surnames.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Anyway, his bees have been some biters - they would bite right into the hand.


Greg:

Good feedback. I remember Nordak being around when I first started frequenting Beesource, but was not aware of him complaining of his bees biting him. I have not experienced that, but several colonies exhibit what I would describe as significant chewing behavior- just curious if you all had run across this with your colonies. Now that you mention it, I could make a point of trying to keep track of how (or if) chewing relates to mite growth. Thanks for adding another thing for me to have to record 😉.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I have not looked to even see if any bees are alive.


If your forecast is anything like ours, sounds like tomorrow and Wednesday will offer opportunities for flight- hopefully you'll get a chance to check your girls and report on what you find.

It's muddy here too- this winter has been interesting in that it has been hard to find time when the ground is either dry enough of frozen enough to work in the woodlot. I've had to work feverishly in short windows to try to get firewood cut/split/stacked on the few days we've had reliably cold weather.

Take care of yourself- and when you've got the 'Sultans of Swing' lead down cold, I want to hear it:


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> In our neck of the woods you can tell the city-slicker, revenuers, or other non-natives by the way they pronounce surnames.


You know it's not taxable if it's being used strictly for medicinal purposes...


----------



## gww

Russ


> Take care of yourself- and when you've got the 'Sultans of Swing' lead down cold, I want to hear it:


I worked on dust in the wind for months and could never get my fingers to make it sound proper and so now any fingering I have come close to learning, I am going back and trying to learn it anew with alternate picking with a pick being my thumb.

Sticking with my own lazy style, I also shun all songs that need a capo or just play them wrong cause I got tire of having one more tool to mess with.

Not that it is helping my skill any but I took a spurt of hard learning/playing lately and my shoulder is waking me up every night.

I am working on learning to count properly as my work on learning the minor scale is not bearing any kind of fruit no matter how I try.

I just keep plugging away all my days with self entertainment with the guitar and since I have no feed back, am probably gaining all kinds of bad habits. I will be purely you tube video trained and still find it hard as heck to emulate in a way that sounds good. 

The hardness of it does give me a real appreciation for those who really have mastered it well enough to get through anything mistake free. Those who do the electric guitar and have to not only learn to play but have to learn all the nobs and sound items might make a guy like "me's" brain explode.

I still cannot play blue eyes crying in the rain or make the lead sound very well, with out mistakes even though I play it every day for months. I will also sing the second to last line with the wrong words every single time even though I know the proper words. This just amazes me.
Bet you were not expecting a book when you posted.
Cheers
gww


----------



## joebeewhisperer

gww said:


> worked on dust in the wind for months and could never get my fingers to make it sound proper and so now any fingering I have come close to learning, I am going back and trying to learn it anew with alternate picking with a pick being my thumb.


The guy from Kansas was studying Merle Travis’ style picking when he wrote Dust in the Wind (or so the story goes). I had the chords in a book back around 1980, but played the picking pattern wrong for 30 years. One night I was looking through some stuff and saw a guitar mag a friend had left here several years before with tab for the song. I decided if I was ever going to learn it correctly, it was time. It broke my brain for about 20-30 minutes, but then it happened.

Merle played primarily with his thumb and index finger. Honestly, the Kansas song is much easier to play that way than a pick and two fingers, or a thumb and two fingers.

After a church service 3-4 years ago a kid who had played drums during the service grabbed my guitar and started picking that song incorrectly. I told him the story of finally learning it correctly, played it for 10 seconds and handed him the guitar. He stalled 2-3x and within 30 seconds was playing it as good as I could. Argh. 😜

If you’ll shoot me a DM with contact info I can record it with my phone and maybe slow it down if that would help. Doesn’t always work for me. I learned the intro to Roundabout by Yes from a session player in a basement in Nashville in 1984-85. To this day I can’t play it slowly. It’s burned in my brain at the right tempo, but thinking about what I’m doing throws me off.


----------



## gww

Joe
I will have to try and get rid of one finger and see how it goes. I will pm you my email but don't feel obligated to go out of your way cause I got lots of stuff to work on and will probably never run out.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I worked on dust in the wind for months and could never get my fingers to make it sound proper and so now any fingering I have come close to learning, I am going back and trying to learn it anew with alternate picking with a pick being my thumb.


My memory of this song is forever scarred by Tim Hawkin's parody of this song- you're welcome :


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> The guy from Kansas was studying Merle Travis’ style picking when he wrote Dust in the Wind (or so the story goes).


Another Kentucky boy making his mark on the music scene:









Fingerstyle guitar - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Greg:
> 
> Good feedback. I remember Nordak being around when I first started frequenting Beesource, but was not aware of him complaining of his bees biting him. I have not experienced that, but several colonies exhibit what I would describe as significant chewing behavior- just curious if you all had run across this with your colonies. Now that you mention it, I could make a point of trying to keep track of how (or if) chewing relates to mite growth. Thanks for adding another thing for me to have to record 😉.


I have known Nordak pretty closely and we spoke quiet a bit directly at one time.
He helped me with the queens.
I suppose I need to reach out to him and ask how are things going.

Yes, indeed, it was surprising to me how he described his bees biting and pulling on the hair on his arms - sounded unpleasant as he described it.
Nordak (at the time) was living right in the middle of this "Appalachia phenomenon".
He never treated and never needed to treat I believe.
So this is a real testimony of such biting behavior and hence I document it here.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> I have known Nordak pretty closely and we spoke quiet a bit directly at one time.
> He helped me with the queens.
> I suppose I need to reach out to him and ask how are things going.
> 
> Yes, indeed, it was surprising to me how he described his bees biting and pulling on the hair on his arms - sounded unpleasant as he described it.
> Nordak (at the time) was living right in the middle of this "Appalachia phenomenon".
> He never treated and never needed to treat I believe.
> So this is a real testimony of such biting behavior and hence I document it here.


So this is a real testimony of such biting behavior and hence I document it here.

observed, peer reviewed, well documented.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> So this is a real testimony of such biting behavior and hence I document it here.
> 
> observed, peer reviewed, well documented.
> 
> GG


Look - obviously I meant I want to put* this in writing.*
You put something in writing (not matter what it is) - it is a *document*.
(E. g. a written document can be used used against you in court - no matter what stupidity it says - it is a document).

A testimony (especially a written one) is a document.
I don't care if the latest trend is - blah, blah.... it must be "observed, peer reviewed,"..........
The documents have different functions and meanings - just reminding of that. 
They are still documents.

Russ, might as well ask about when talking to that mite-biter team the next time.

The point, GG, is that those researcher of the mite-biters may need to pay attention to such things.
BUT if no one ever mentions this - they may never notice or think about it.
They miss important details right and left and don't even think of it.

In fact, I never heard of bees biting until talking to Nordak.
I 100% believe him.
Simply forgot until now.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> Look - obviously I meant I want to put* this in writing.*
> You put something in writing (not matter what it is) - it is a *document*.
> (E. g. a written document can be used used against you in court - no matter what stupidity it says - it is a document).
> 
> A testimony (especially a written one) is a document.
> I don't care if the latest trend is - blah, blah.... it must be "observed, peer reviewed,"..........
> The documents have different functions and meanings - just reminding of that.
> They are still documents.
> 
> Russ, might as well ask about when talking to that mite-biter team the next time.
> 
> The point, GG, is that those researcher of the mite-biters may need to pay attention to such things.
> BUT if no one ever mentions this - they may never notice or think about it.
> They miss important details right and left and don't even think of it.
> 
> In fact, I never heard of bees biting until talking to Nordak.
> I 100% believe him.
> Simply forgot until now.


right
I agree as I offered.

GG


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> My memory of this song is forever scarred by Tim Hawkin's parody of this song- you're welcome :


You have desecrated my teen years. 

That guitar was just enough different from the original pop song to be really jarring.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> In fact, I never heard of bees biting until talking to Nordak.
> I 100% believe him.
> Simply forgot until now.


Oh yes, bees bite. Pretty annoying. Not as bad as stinging.


----------



## William Bagwell

joebeewhisperer said:


> Now I'll be explaining SrBB and SoBB after using them, but totally worth it.


If anyone asks why it is Sr instead of Sc just tell them an idiot came up with it  Actually an r makes sense as it is more visually distinct from an o than a c. But only thought of that hours after the Homer Simpson "Doh!" moment.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> That guitar was just enough different from the original pop song to be really jarring.


My profound apologies- It is hard to unsee or unhear something. 

How about a little 'Cannonball Rag' to redeem the conversation?


----------



## Tumbleweed

Litsinger said:


> Dr. John Chambers sent me a PDF advance copy (attached) of his presentation tomorrow at the 'National Honey Show' entitled, _"Basic Honey Bee Genetics for Beekeepers"_.
> 
> This talk is a slightly different version of his talk which is posted on YouTube:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the talk itself is posted, I will make a point to link it here.
> 
> For those of us who have been patiently awaiting his _"Four Incompatible Approaches to Bee Improvement"_ talk, he mentioned he is scheduled to give it at this February's 'Bee Improvers and Bee Breeders Association Conference'.
> 
> View attachment 52029


Thanks for the article, one take away towards the end of the article.

“Honey bees have some dormant genetic legacy that they can draw upon when needed”


----------



## Litsinger

Tumbleweed said:


> “Honey bees have some dormant genetic legacy that they can draw upon when needed”


Tumbleweed: Glad you 'blew' into the thread- appreciate your input. I do think that Brother Adam's cross-breeding experiments provided some glimpse into the latent potential that might exist in the genome. I had hoped Dr. Chambers would have posted his follow-up '4 Incompatible Approaches' presentation by now, but alas...


----------



## Litsinger

Well the girls decided today that it is time to begin collecting pollen in earnest- lots of pale yellow, light green, red and white pollen inbound. Time to work later in the evening on woodenware...


----------



## Litsinger

Today's high of 60 had 36 of 36 bringing in pollen- it looks like the girls are ready to turn the corner.

The 'Reference' colony (#2011) has employed approximately 10# from November 1st to today and does not appear to be fully engaged in brood rearing yet.


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## Litsinger

I learned a valuable lesson yesterday that reminded me I am still figuring out this beekeeping thing. Our high got up to near 65 degrees and the colonies were bringing in significant pollen- all except three that is. 

2110, 2113 and 2120 were all new swarm starts from this season- you all know where this story is going...

I hinged them up and found they were running out of food- so I quickly gathered up some boxes of open nectar that I had from last season and threw them underneath the active clusters.

The thing that was so remarkable to me is that within 30 minutes, two of the colonies set about to pollen gathering in earnest. An important lesson for the future.

I would have taken photos of all three colonies, but my intervention was spontaneous and I didn't have any gear nor hive tool- and 2120 was far less than thrilled that I came for a visit. It was good to get the first few stings of the season out of the way, but I was not interested in taking a few more for the team.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> I learned a valuable lesson yesterday that reminded me I am still figuring out this beekeeping thing. Our high got up to near 65 degrees and the colonies were bringing in significant pollen- all except three that is.
> 
> 2110, 2113 and 2120 were all new swarm starts from this season- you all know where this story is going...
> 
> I hinged them up and found they were running out of food- so I quickly gathered up some boxes of open nectar that I had from last season and threw them underneath the active clusters.
> 
> The thing that was so remarkable to me is that within 30 minutes, two of the colonies set about to pollen gathering in earnest. An important lesson for the future.
> 
> I would have taken photos of all three colonies, but my intervention was spontaneous and I didn't have any gear nor hive tool- and 2120 was far less than thrilled that I came for a visit. It was good to get the first few stings of the season out of the way, but I was not interested in taking a few more for the team.


hopefully you did a lift test before adding feed.
then you have your arm calibrated for "ran out"

rain today so in 10 days or so I should be in boxes, getting antsy.

GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> hopefully you did a lift test before adding feed.
> then you have your arm calibrated for "ran out"


I sure did- that's how I figured out that it was time to take decisive action.

We're in the same boat down here- rainy and cold for the next 7 - 10 days. 

Looks like the final exam for 2021/2022 winter down here.


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## Litsinger

@joebeewhisperer shared this study with me a few weeks ago and I finally had the opportunity to read through it:

Reproduction of Varroa destructor does not elicit varroa sensitive hygiene (VSH) or recapping behaviour in honey bee colonies (Apis mellifera)

The central theme of the study was the observation that reproductive status of mite infested cells was not a key metric for VSH nor uncapping behavior. As they noted:

_… in our experiments, the presence of the mite within the brood cell was crucial for the recorded high brood removal rate, whereas the removal rate is independent from the presence of offspring. However, the occurrence of multiple foundress females within one brood cell seems to enhance the VSH behaviour (Kim et al. 2018), indicating that the adult mite represents the source for the removal stimulus.

The number of cells targeted by recapping behaviour did also not differ between reproductive vs. non-reproductive cells._

The other aspect of the study that is interesting is a further development of three distinct descriptions of mite non-reproduction and their possible interaction (as originally offered by Mondet et al attached):

_Recently, the term mite non-reproduction (MNR) was suggested to clarify a so far imprecise definition by distinguish_[ing]_ between a trait exclusively originating from features of the brood (SMR) and the overall occurrence of non-reproductive mites (MNR; Eynard et al. 2020; Mondet et al. 2020a, b) Therefore, MNR can be a result of traits like VSH, while SMR is a trait solely originating from inhibiting or stimulating brood signals. This means MNR is an umbrella term to describe the occurrence of non-reproductive mites when the trigger or origin is not clear.

Therefore, “non-reproduction” of varroa mites could be both, the effect of SMR and the effect of VSH. However, it was shown that VSH cannot explain all cases of SMR (Ibrahim and Spivak 2006). SMR is likely triggered by properties of the larvae and/or pupae (Garrido and Rosenkranz 2003), while VSH is a behavioural trait of the adult bee. Because SMR can be an indirect result of VSH behaviour, the terminology of SMR and VSH has become indistinct (Harris et al. 2012), especially in applied selection programs._


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## joebeewhisperer

I knew you were the man for the task in dissecting and digesting what all this means.


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## AR1

Litsinger said:


> @joebeewhisperer shared this study with me a few weeks ago and I finally had the opportunity to read through it:
> 
> Reproduction of Varroa destructor does not elicit varroa sensitive hygiene (VSH) or recapping behaviour in honey bee colonies (Apis mellifera)


Nice study. I generally expect to find glaring deficiencies, such as no proper control group, or changes in technique over the course of the study, but this one appears solid.

Quote:.._.However, the fivefold higher removal rate of varroa infested cells confirms that not an unspecific high hygienic sensitivity of these preselected colonies but rather a varroa-specific hygienic behaviour was responsible for the recorded differences..._

This is a good point. Some have mentioned that VHS stocks remove too much brood, and so 'waste' a lot of energy removing brood that doesn't need to be removed. At least with the bees in this study, that appears not to be a major problem.


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## Andy Berg

Litsinger said:


> he colonies were bringing in significant pollen- all except three that is.


So would you say that colonies that are bringing in pollen have sufficient sugar feed?


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## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> I knew you were the man for the task in dissecting and digesting what all this means.


Just trying to be like you when I grow up, Joe... Thanks for sharing the article with me.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Some have mentioned that VHS stocks remove too much brood, and so 'waste' a lot of energy removing brood that doesn't need to be removed. At least with the bees in this study, that appears not to be a major problem.


Good point, AR1. It will be interesting to see what future scholarship observes, but it seems that the 'specialist' roles of diverse subfamilies seems to be at least one aspect of how colonies create a 'balanced' response to various colony needs and pest and disease issues. 

It seems somewhat analogous in my mind to the ratio of bees in an individual colony that forage for pollen versus nectar - in a well-adapted colony they forage for appropriate amounts of both at the right times seasonally but as we know from Dr. Page's studies colonies can be selected to hoard pollen to their detriment. I wonder if we will learn that resistance responses are similar.


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## Litsinger

Andy Berg said:


> So would you say that colonies that are bringing in pollen have sufficient sugar feed?


Andy:

Thank you for your feedback. Good question.

For my part, I am not sure I am ready to go that far out on a limb- but what I have learned is when I see that 'One of These Things is Not Like the Other' it is a good idea to take a look and see what is going on.

In this specific case I was observing that all but three colonies in my yard were behaving similarly in regards to pollen collection so it suggested it would be prudent for me to investigate.

The other thing I was mindful of is that all three of these colonies were relatively late new swarm starts who went into Winter without an overabundance of surplus.

If you haven't already reviewed it, the book _'At the Hive Entrance' _(attached) is a good reference to consider what seasonal activity observed from the exterior might tell us about what is going on inside the colony or what environmental cues the colony might be responding to.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> It seems somewhat analogous in my mind to the ratio of bees in an individual colony that forage for pollen versus nectar - in a well-adapted colony they forage for appropriate amounts of both at the right times seasonally but as we know from Dr. Page's studies colonies can be selected to hoard pollen to their detriment. I wonder if we will learn that resistance responses are similar.


In considering this idea, I came across the following Beekeeping Today podcast with Dr. Page. From about the 32 to the 35 minute mark he outlines the concept of 'social traits'.

From his work with selecting for low and high pollen foraging behaviors, he learned that his selection on one trait had a profound impact of the entire social structure of the colony. 

Succinctly he observes, _"I select one thing, and I change everything- all the way down to the genes."_

In reference to his high pollen lines he noted, _"I reverse engineer the entire social structure of the nest. I selected on the economy _(i.e. high pollen foraging)_ and I reverse engineered the social structure... the physiology... and the _[collective response to]_ cues."_

Considering this in the context of survival and resistance characteristics, it seems to further lend credence to the general philosophy of a resistance breeding approach that plots a course toward the 'Golden Mean'.


----------



## Andy Berg

Litsinger said:


> In this specific case I was observing that all but three colonies in my yard were behaving similarly in regards to pollen collection so it suggested it would be prudent for me to investigate.
> 
> If you haven't already reviewed it, the book _'At the Hive Entrance' _(attached) is a good reference to consider what seasonal activity observed from the exterior might tell us about what is going on inside the colony or what environmental cues the colony might be responding to.


Thanks, Russ.
As I (I hope) come through my first winter with bees, I'm trying to get a handle on when I can stop worrying that they are going to starve. 

Then I can move on to worrying about something else.


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## Litsinger

Andy Berg said:


> Then I can move on to worrying about something else.


As a fellow member of the 'perpetual worriers' club, I think I know where you're coming from.

While lack of pollen may not necessarily be indicative of a problem, I would suggest that robust pollen foraging- whereby you have many bees returning with big globs of pollen is certainly an encouraging sign that the bees sense they have enough internal and external resources to gear-up brood rearing.

That said, we are entering the seasonal period were I expect (based on your location) you might just plan on finding a day within the next week where your daytime high will be above 40, not stormy and won't have a nighttime low below say 20 and simply do a quick heft test of the box(es) containing the cluster to see how they are doing on stores. 

If it still feels heavy, button them right back up and stop worrying.

If it feels light or you are not sure, have a feed shim ready and put a quick 'Mountain Camp' feeding on top for insurance- unless you have some surplus nectar frames stored back?


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## AR1

Andy Berg said:


> Thanks, Russ.
> As I (I hope) come through my first winter with bees, I'm trying to get a handle on when I can stop worrying that they are going to starve.
> 
> Then I can move on to worrying about something else.


Assuming decent stores in fall, or addition of sugar by the beekeeper...highest risk of starvation is in two waves. First wave is when temps are very cold and bees can't move around inside the hive, they starve even if honey is an inch away on the far side of a frame. Lost one like that this year. Sometimes bees try to raise a little winter brood and die of starvation in cold snaps because they can't move away from brood. Had 2 hives do that last winter, at least I think that's what happened.
Second risk is late in winter/early spring. Stores are used up but nothing is coming in. In my area this is now through the end of March. I like to pop the lids on warmer days and check how they are using sugar blocks.


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## Litsinger

Cory Stevens recently posted an interview with Dr. Kefuss that I think is the best video to-date that captures his personality and humility:






It reminds me of a Sunday afternoon chat with grandpa- full of wisdom, anecdotes and recollections of interactions with many of the giants in the apiculture community.

The biggest takeaway from this talk that I haven't heard him speak about before is his insistence that epigenetics plays a big factor in the development of resistance in bee populations- he is a big believer in local adaptation.

@AR1 you'll definitely have to speed this one up- it is over 4 hours long.


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## AR1

Epigenetics...is is Lamarck, Lysenko, or just magic. It's like string theory in physics. It explains everything, nothing, and the math is way beyond me, so I can't even really think about it, let alone discuss it.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Epigenetics...is is Lamarck, Lysenko, or just magic.


The best definition I have found relative to the current understanding of epigenetics is as follows:



Litsinger said:


> Thus the idea is that at least in some circumstances, there might be a phenotypic change that occurs in a given population in response to a new challenge that will subsequently be reflected in the genetic signature rather than the other way round.


FWIW- There are others (like Sam Comfort) who also sense the impact of epigenetics in their breeding efforts:



Litsinger said:


> At about the 37:40 mark, he discusses his thoughts on epigenetics and outlines how he always rears queens in a cell builder from the same family line.


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## Litsinger

Here's a cool talk from Randy Oliver discussing the Scientific Method relative to our beekeeping experiments/observations.

Very good and practical overview of things to think about concerning experimental design, execution and common pitfalls to avoid:


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> It explains everything, nothing, and the math is way beyond me, so I can't even really think about it, let alone discuss it.


This one made my head hurt, but does give a good contemporary overview of the current BOK relative to epigenetic effects in insects. A few clarifying bits that were helpful to me:

1. Epigenetics in general

_Epigenetics is specifically concerned with heritable changes to gene regulation that occur in response to intercellular and extracellular environmental cues. Broadly defined, epigenetic information can take many forms, since factors at many levels can stably affect gene regulation._

2. More specifically (emphasis mine)

_Intragenerational__ epigenetic inheritance is concerned with the process of development and addresses questions of how an egg with a single set of genetic instructions is able to develop into a multicellular organism made up of distinct tissues (*138*). 

In contrast, intergenerational epigenetic inheritance (*54*) is concerned with how a focal individual transmits epigenetic information to offspring. This distinction is important, and intergenerational epigenetics, though thought to be rare, is of interest because it directly affects the process of evolution. 

Nevertheless, this review focuses primarily on intragenerational epigenetic inheritance because the majority of research on molecular epigenetics in insects has been conducted at this scale._

A major area of interest in terms of intergenerational DNA methylation is its potential role in genomic imprinting, the process by which variation in gene expression is shaped by an allele's parent of origin (*39*). A role for DNA methylation in imprinting has been observed in plants and mammals (*70*, *78*). Moreover, imprinting is predicted to arise in response to evolutionary conflicts between relatives, which are pronounced in eusocial insects (*110*). In line with these predictions, recent evidence for parent of origin effects on transcription has emerged in the social bee _Apis mellifera_ (*42*).

Some thoughts along this line:



Litsinger said:


> epigenetic effects in honey bees


3. Postembryonic effects

_... these results point to DNA methylation differences arising during postembryonic development. Overall, more research needs to be undertaken to determine whether such differences in DNA methylation between phenotypes are common in insects and whether they have meaningful functional consequences._


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## Litsinger

Things have turned the corner here in Western Kentucky- the red and silver maples are in full bloom, the dandelions and groundsel are starting to make their entry and the bees are busy hauling pollen and nectar in between rain showers. While we've still got a little cold weather in front of us, the season has begun.

There are only two colonies that I am worried about at this point (a 5X5 nuc and a late 8-frame swarm), but I still expect they will pull through. 

Thus, my full-year survival for 21/22 is 36 out of 40.

Comparing this with the previous years, I am sitting at a four year average of 20% loss year-over-year. At least in my apiary, I count all losses throughout the year in these totals- including summer queen failures and any late season combines.

Here are the four year totals:

18/19 – 2/6
19/20 – 12/12
20/21 – 19/27
21/22 – 36/40

69/85 = +/- 20% annual loss.

Next moves will be to get swarm traps out and get more hive bodies ready- in the past few years I have been using the redbud bloom as my cue to install supers.

Best of success to one and all in the upcoming bee season.

Russ


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> 69/85 = +/- 20% annual loss.


Darn!
See, this is *exactly *what I was hoping for myself. 
Great it is working out for you, Russ. 
At this survival rating, one can actually do the set-it-and-forget model.
Heck, I'd be happy with steady 50% percent loss, if I can afford to be lazy.
80% survival with no chems is to kill for. 

PS: we all appreciate you are keeping good accounting - this is again, *exactly*, what people should be reporting -* the numbers. *(not some folk tales).


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Things have turned the corner here in Western Kentucky- the red and silver maples are in full bloom, the dandelions and groundsel are starting to make their entry and the bees are busy hauling pollen and nectar in between rain showers. While we've still got a little cold weather in front of us, the season has begun.
> 
> There are only two colonies that I am worried about at this point (a 5X5 nuc and a late 8-frame swarm), but I still expect they will pull through.
> 
> Thus, my full-year survival for 21/22 is 36 out of 40.
> 
> Comparing this with the previous years, I am sitting at a four year average of 20% loss year-over-year. At least in my apiary, I count all losses throughout the year in these totals- including summer queen failures and any late season combines.
> 
> Here are the four year totals:
> 
> 18/19 – 2/6
> 19/20 – 12/12
> 20/21 – 19/27
> 21/22 – 36/40
> 
> 69/85 = +/- 20% annual loss.
> 
> Next moves will be to get swarm traps out and get more hive bodies ready- in the past few years I have been using the redbud bloom as my cue to install supers.
> 
> Best of success to one and all in the upcoming bee season.
> 
> Russ


Russ
are you going to start to use the "ranking" used by Cory to see which ones are 4s and then requeen the rest?
or just use the bond you are now?

GG


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## Tigger19687

Russ,
In regards to the 3 hives you opened.... Could it be that they were waiting a little bit due to being small ? Maybe waiting till temps leveled out a little? Once you opened them up it was like someone turned on the light?

Did you do a full inspection before adding in the nectar. How did the hive as a whole look ?

Just curious as we know no every have is exactly the same and wondered what set these apart other then late swarm.... Maybe genetics? 

Again, thank you for all your posts as we all learn from them !


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## Litsinger

GregB said:


> At this survival rating, one can actually do the set-it-and-forget model.


@GregB - Thank you for your feedback and encouragement. It is folks like you who are keeping a diligent accounting of their efforts that helps keep me accountable in my own efforts.

While I am pretty sure I know where you are coming from, I think we can all appreciate that even when things are going well in the apiary, it is far from 'set-it-and-forget-it'....

But I have enjoyed a charmed result thus far with relatively little intervention- so I accept your premise.



Gray Goose said:


> are you going to start to use the "ranking" used by Cory to see which ones are 4s and then requeen the rest?
> or just use the bond you are now?


This is a hard question to answer. In short, I am not yet comfortable settling on a single metric to drive selection decisions. 

While I appreciate and admire what Cory has accomplished with his breeding program (and will gladly introduce some of his genetics into my yard), I've read enough studies and anecdotes to suggest that selection on a single trait can often lead to unintended (and deleterious) consequences.

My thoughts at present tend to align with the general approach that Roger Patterson suggests- namely evaluate your entire stock on a suite of traits that you feel are important and work to cull the bottom 50%. In my mind, this seems to strike a good balance between incremental stock improvement while also allowing a variety of resistance mechanisms the opportunity to continue to develop.

We'll see where it all goes- the wheels could fall off the bus tomorrow so I try not to project too far into the future. 

As a wise man once said, _"Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself"_.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> My thoughts at present tend to align with the general approach that Roger Patterson suggests- namely evaluate your entire stock on a suite of traits that you feel are important and work to cull the bottom 50%.


Every time I mentioned that %50 loss/survival would satisfy me just fine (as a crude way of achieving what Roger Patterson suggests also) - I recall @msl would come and argue that this will not work. 
In his view one needs to cull 80-90% to achieve significant enough selection (and there are links to papers).

Intuitively I still tend to favor %50 percent approach.
In fact, I favor running simultaneously 2-3-4 distinct lines of bees because each has something to offer (and yes - something to be annoyed with, which is normal).
With this approach it is just impossible to cull 80-90% of one's queens.


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## Litsinger

Tigger19687 said:


> In regards to the 3 hives you opened.... Could it be that they were waiting a little bit due to being small ? Maybe waiting till temps leveled out a little? Once you opened them up it was like someone turned on the light?
> 
> Did you do a full inspection before adding in the nectar. How did the hive as a whole look ?
> 
> Just curious as we know no every have is exactly the same and wondered what set these apart other then late swarm.... Maybe genetics?


@Tigger19687:

First off- thank you for your insightful questions.

Secondly, I am no expert so take my answers for what they are... as D.T. Niles famously opined, _...one beggar telling another beggar where he found bread._

I think it entirely possible that these colonies were waiting to gather due to their cluster sizes- I think we have all observed the changing dynamics in colonies based on their size. Specific to late winter activity there appears to be inverse proportionality between cluster size and their ability to both cover brood and forage.

Also, I have observed that colonies will often have orientation flights following an inspection- so you could be on to something regarding my disturbance having a stimulating effect on the colony.

I did not conduct full inspections of these colonies before adding resources. This was due to a few factors:


I tend not to conduct full inspections unless what I am seeing between the frames suggests I need to take a deep dive. In this case, the colonies looked fine, albeit small clusters.
I try to avoid full inspections if at all possible until there are drones in abundance- I have ample evidence to suggest that I am perfectly capable of rolling a queen or dropping her on the ground.
In this specific case, I didn't have my veil, smoker or even a hive tool... So it was kind of like being a Civil War surgeon- speed was worth more than skill.

That said, I always take a flashlight into the bee yard and shine it up between the frames to see what's going on- so in this scenario, I was doing a quick tip-up of the box with the active cluster, looking between the frames to see what's going on, and then giving the box a heft test.

As to the question of why they were in the shape they are in- it is a good question and one I am not sure I'll have a satisfactory response for.

What I can say is that swarms in general have to do everything right to successfully overwinter. In my case, I as a rule supply new swarm starts with a single frame of drawn comb and no other supplemental resources. So, colonies that swarm late are already at a disadvantage in regards to building the nest, rearing brood and having the time to get sufficient stores put back to make it through.

All that said, I did check all three of these colonies before I buttoned them up for the winter and felt they had sufficient stores to make it through- so their higher consumption could reflect higher viral load and/or genetic disposition to consume more stores. I'll keep an eye on them this year and we will see what develops.

Again- good questions. Glad the thread is of some help to you, and I'll look forward to reading about your experiences.

Russ


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## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Every time I mentioned that %50 loss/survival would satisfy me just fine (as a crude way of achieving what Roger Patterson suggests also) - I recall @msl would come and argue that this will not work.


While I am definitely no expert in this area, I think the 'right' answer may depend quite significantly upon both population-level dynamics and individual goals.

Specifically, if the population does not have the trait I need (i.e. resistance), then I have to work hard to attempt to fix that trait in the population. No matter whether the trait(s) that confer resistance prove to be dominant, recessive, additive or some combination I think the general approach is the same- the less a trait is showing up in a population, the more aggressive one must bottleneck the selection in order to amplify the trait.

I know this is a drastic oversimplification but I think it underscores the fact that our individual propagation and selection efforts should be guided by the facts on the ground and our individual goals.

To whit- if (and this is a big if) the local population in my area as an example proves to have some resistance profile that is fairly established in the collective gene pool and I am satisfied with the general phenotype that presents itself (i.e. temper, production, etc.) then I expect I could ultimately be afforded the luxury of having a more generalized (and forgiving) selection cutoff.

If however I only have a few examples of the phenotype in my population that express the traits that I am interested in, then it is likely prudent for me to aggressively promote these genetics in preference to others.

Just my two cents.


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## AR1

Litsinger said:


> While I am definitely no expert in this area, I think the 'right' answer may depend quite significantly upon both population-level dynamics and individual goals.


Agree. If the local 'superpopulation' doesn't align with your goals, with the way bees outcross, progress is nearly impossible. Every year you will have to select against the inflow. A very slow process. If your local feral population is somewhat resistant then you have a chance


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> What I can say is that swarms in general have to do everything right to successfully overwinter. In my case, I as a rule supply new swarm starts with a single frame of drawn comb and no other supplemental resources. So, colonies that swarm late are already at a disadvantage in regards to building the nest, rearing brood and having the time to get sufficient stores put back to make it through.


seems a little chincy. I often give a super of stores, and swap the new swarm into a location with "too many" bees, IE likely to late swarm. As well late swarms get the comb from the incoming traps. trap tear down is july 15th starts.



Litsinger said:


> If however I only have a *few examples* of the phenotype in my population that express the traits that I am interested in, then it is likely prudent for me to aggressively promote these genetics in preference to others.


so try not to think "selection" instead think de selection. If a hive is weak 2 or 3 seasons in a row it is re queen time.
If overly aggressive, scores a 1 or 2 on the assy etc. using the 10% you are thinking are the best.

I only have a few as well, but all my replacements come from the best hives.
the 3 or 4 worse ones are fodder for making splits.
I am no where near 1/2 either, more like best 4 used to replace the worse 5.
I need to nudge it a little, else I am an observer...

GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> seems a little chincy.


No argument from me GG- and you make some good suggestions. For me it is trying to strike a balance of seeing if they've got the goods to make it on their own and not supporting unsuitable genetics relative to swarm date, build-up, etc. That said, I am not so cruel to leave them with no hope of survival- I do check them periodically throughout the season to see how they are progressing and do help them along where I can if they seem to be making good progress or beekeeper error (a common problem around here) sets them back. 

Also, I do try to check their stores early enough in the Fall to add suitable resources if they are short. I have two colonies that began as small swarms this season who got a little late season boost and seem to be doing just fine right now.

So in other words I know I am talking out of both sides of my mouth. 



Gray Goose said:


> I need to nudge it a little, else I am an observer...


FWIW I think you are on target here- my biggest challenge is determining what is True North so I know what direction to nudge the needle. As Michael Bush observes, I'd rather do nothing if I don't know what I am doing than do something that is wrong, because at least from the perspective of sustainability the bees know a lot more than I do and have a pretty good sense of where they would like to go. 

The challenge is learning how to not work against Mother Nature and to work within natural selection's priorities while simultaneously teasing out some of my own.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> The challenge is learning how to not work against Mother Nature and to work within natural selection's priorities while simultaneously teasing out some of my own.


I give dominion over.......

maybe split off a yard and play there, leave 2/3 alone and relatively unmolested for your "base"
here by me they are all mutts, so nothing local to screw up, your not the same, So I get it.

At this point my best overwintered hives are used for Queens.

some sort of criteria will be needed. maybe work on that.... try ranking the hives, if you never do any thing no matter, at least you are then ready.

GG


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## AR1

Litsinger said:


> FWIW I think you are on target here- my biggest challenge is determining what is True North so I know what direction to nudge the needle.


Or, yah know, just get out the willow branch and align with the Ley lines...


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Or, yah know, just get out the willow branch and align with the Ley lines...


Now that's using your bean... I can't believe I didn't think of that! 🤣


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> some sort of criteria will be needed. maybe work on that.... try ranking the hives, if you never do any thing no matter, at least you are then ready.


GG:

Thanks again for your feedback. I've been giving this one some thought and I think your idea is sound. This past weekend, @James Lee hosted and MC'd a great virtual conference which included several top-notch presenters.

One of them was Terry Combs, and he described his own selection process which mirrors what I think you are suggesting.

Namely, he scores all his colonies throughout the year based on a scale he developed. Then over the winter he evaluates these scores and uses these scores to rank his colonies.

The best colonies he prioritizes for queen production and the next tier he prioritizes for drone production.

Then, because he only uses swarm cells I think he 'takes what he gets' from the top-ranking colonies as a means to promote continued high-diversity while also fostering a general overall improvement of the stock.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Namely, he scores all his colonies throughout the year based on a scale he developed. Then over the winter he evaluates these scores and uses these scores to rank his colonies.


FWIW there is a detailed treatment of his selection criteria in the following post. If you follow the bread crumbs back you can read four separate articles relating to Terry's efforts:



Litsinger said:


> In the third and final installment of his _‘Treatment-Free Beekeeping: A Practical Hands-On Approach’_ article, Mr. Terry Combs lays out the actual mechanisms of his evaluation and selection processes.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Anyone else see this kind of stuff in their bees? Here I tend to see it at the entrances and the square outside corner of the frame rests.


Getting ready for the season by cleaning/sorting the stacks and documented more chewing activity:


----------



## Litsinger

Awesome interview posted a few weeks ago by Frederick Dunn interviewing Jeff Horchoff (link below).

IMHO the whole thing is well worth the listen, but the last 9 minutes (starting at about 1:26) is pure gold.

The main thrust of the video is exploring general themes concerning colony development that Jeff has observed through the course of 300+ cutouts, including:

1. Entrance size and location.
2. Brood nest and stores configuration.
3. Comb thickness.
4. Propolis envelope.

He also mentions that he has never treated, currently manages between 125 - 140 colonies and has average losses in the 25 - 30% range.


----------



## Litsinger

One more for today- while I have generally had good luck employing foundationless, I do end up with more than a couple of these each year.

I ultimately had to turn this box upside down and remove 5 frames as a unit and still suffered some breakage. That said, I am typically able to salvage most of them by using a hair drier and a little patience.


----------



## crofter

What is is your take on the chewing? mouse or bee! I dont see tooth marks. They seemed to be interested in the opening.


----------



## Litsinger

crofter said:


> What is is your take on the chewing? mouse or bee!


Definitely bee- this box and upper entrance originally were configured as a unit (with entrance shim atop the box) and the colony removed the sharp edge that existed between the two surfaces- it seems they want the entrance(s) to be free of tight corners.


----------



## crofter

Litsinger said:


> Definitely bee- this box and upper entrance originally were configured as a unit (with entrance shim atop the box) and the colony removed the sharp edge that existed between the two surfaces- it seems they want the entrance(s) to be free of tight corners.


 Do they pull hair and bite mites? Wonder if it is different traits. Have not experienced chewing or hair pulling with mine.


----------



## Litsinger

crofter said:


> Do they pull hair and bite mites?


They do bite mites but I have never experienced the hair pulling:



Litsinger said:


> ... find that all colonies express fairly significant 'mite biting' behavior.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> One more for today- while I have generally had good luck employing foundationless, I do end up with more than a couple of these each year.
> 
> I ultimately had to turn this box upside down and remove 5 frames as a unit and still suffered some breakage. That said, I am typically able to salvage most of them by using a hair drier and a little patience.


A couple built ones in the mix helps.
the whole thing new seems to have risk.
I like 2 in a box with 7 combs, they seem fine then.
can add 25% a year that way.

BTW nice save.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> A couple built ones in the mix helps.
> the whole thing new seems to have risk.


Good point- I am still comb poor. So I start with a comb or two in the box but then end up rolling the dice as the season goes on... you win some, you lose some.


----------



## Litsinger

After two overnight lows in the upper teens, the long-range forecast does not predict any more nights below freezing here. A survey of the orchard showed moderate freeze damage to Peach blooms and minimal damage to Japanese Plums and a few ambitious Quince but everything else seems to be o.k. If the forecast holds we might have a decent bloom set this year.

One can get a sense of the ramping up of brood rearing over the last month by observing the widening differential between interior and exterior temperature. Hard to believe but we are three weeks from the first natural swarms around here.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ... so he has found 200 wild hives in Germany.


This study posted in last month's Natural Bee Husbandry Magazine estimates the figure of wild hives in Germany at 4,400 to 5,600 based on the results of two beech forest evaluations.

Just for fun- if Germany is approximately 138,000 square miles and the Ohio River Basin is 204,000 square miles- we could speculate that the Basin could have upwards of 8,000 feral colonies in it.

Knowing that the Basin has less than a 1/3rd of the population of Germany and is almost twice as forested by percentage of landmass (i.e. 33% versus 63%) it would not be a stretch to think that the Basin might have 20,000 feral colonies in it.


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## GregB

They reconfirmed the idea of:
...... honey bee swarms will always make the most economical decision and move little when suitable nest sites are close by (Seeley, 2010)


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> There are only two colonies that I am worried about at this point (a 5X5 nuc and a late 8-frame swarm), but I still expect they will pull through.
> 
> Thus, my full-year survival for 21/22 is 36 out of 40.


So I need to revise my survival number down one for the season- observed something new for me...

I've been keeping an eye on the above two colonies (and in particular the 8-frame) as their pollen gathering has lagged far behind all the other colonies.

Yesterday presented a good day to do a deep dive, so I pulled #2113 down frame-by-frame expecting to find it queenless. Imagine my surprise when I found the queen on a frame with beebread, open nectar and polished cells - but not an egg to be found anywhere.

Given that they still had a good population of bees I combined them with the nuc to give them a boost. This set of a robbing event that I had to work around, but that's another matter... Beekeeper carelessness to be specific .

I guess she just ran out of steam- the colony looked heathy with no obvious signs of disease or pest pressure.


----------



## Litsinger

On a walk with the family through the woods back to the creek today we saw signs of Spring renewal on the forest floor. The spring cress and spicebush are in full bloom, the bluebells are right around the corner and the black cohosh is off to a good start.

After conducting 5 years of timber stand improvement, it is good to see some more understory species like paw paw, sumac and elderberry begin to establish, but the preponderance of japanese stiltgrass is disconcerting- there is always some new threat or pest on the radar.


----------



## Litsinger

Interesting scholarly review by Reams and Rangel in the January 2022 _Journal of Insect Science_.

Entitled ‘_Understanding the Enemy: A Review of the Genetics, Behavior and Chemical Ecology of Varroa destructor, the Parasitic Mite of Apis mellifera’,_ it gives a good overview of the current body of knowledge concerning the varroa mite’s genetic basis and lifecycle.

A few things from the paper that were new to me:

_… the infestation thresholds vary depending on environmental factors (e.g., average precipitation, geographic region, and food availability), genetics (e.g., differences between Africanized and European lineages or the presence of hygienic behavior), as well as their interaction (Dainet et al. 2012, Wegener et al. 2016, Dechatre et al. 2021). For example, the growth of Varroa mite populations fluctuates with the weather, with years in which the amount of rainfall is below the annual average showing lower mite growth rates than wetter years (Harris et al. 2003). 

The development of mite offspring takes approximately 5.5 d within worker cells and 7.5 d within drone cells (Ifantidis 1983, Martin 1994).

… mites show a preference for attaching on the left side of the bee’s abdomen for reasons still undetermined (Delfinado-Baker et al. 1992, Fernández et al. 1993). 

… the bees’ own behavior may contribute to the mite’s success during the dispersal phase. For example, Rivera-Marchand et al. (2012) found that commercial honey bees of Italian maternal descent habituated faster to mite attempts at ‘catching a ride’ on adult bees than mites in colonies of Africanized maternal descent. 

Comb that is older is also more attractive to mites, possibly because the cells are smaller from use and thus the distance from a larva to the top of a cell is shorter sooner (Piccirillo and Jong 2004). 

Worker cell acceptance is the threshold at which Varroa will begin invading worker cells (Fuchs 1992). This threshold is measured as the total number of mites within the hive, which is around 300. After this threshold is reached, worker cell acceptance begins to increase (Fuchs 1992). This is because after the threshold is reached, there are so many mites within the colony that it becomes more optimal for a mite to invade a worker cell as the sole foundress than to invade a drone cell that already contains mites._


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> So I need to revise my survival number down one for the season...


Make that two. I should learn to wait until April to begin looking ahead. #2111 looks to have starved-in-place with stores in the box below. Had small patches of brood on 5-frames but looked generally weak. They were a smaller swarm that struggled to take off through the season and was one of the few that was given supplemental stores before buttoning things up for the Winter.

Now the only worrisome colony in the yard that remains is #2118.

Completed the Spring 72 hour mite drop evaluations- a couple interesting observations:

1. At the Fall mite drop evaluation I put 3 colonies on the 'watch list' as a result of a combination of their drops and their constitution: #2011 (dead-out), #2016 (dead-out) and #2003 (survives). So while the Fall count does bear some correlation to future outcomes, it is definitely the Summer count that draws the straightest line between Winter success and failure.

2. I think it is safe to say that any ongoing success on the colony level around here is largely as a result of keeping mite population growth in check- those colonies that exhibit excessive mite counts at the Summer Solstice invariably fail, though I have not seen any outward evidence of DWV in the past three years.

It is also interesting to see the temperature and humidity read-outs for the 'Reference Colony' over the past 30 days (see attached).

All the swarm traps are out so the next step around here will be to put supers on- I have been using the Redbud bloom as a manipulation cue the last few years to good effect- they are all but ready to open up.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> though I have not seen any outward evidence of DWV in the past three years.


For all my failings and terrible losses to the TF project (and 60 (+/-) colonies lost over this time) - I only know of *two *explicitly clear cases of significant DWV in my project. These were classic late-summer bombs with lots of shrunk wing bees.

So I conclude the DWV is really overrated - the told and retold story that keeps going on - I wonder if this needs a revision.
Meanwhile, what consistently was hurting me - the internally damaged and short-lived winter bees.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> So I conclude the DWV is really overrated - the told and retold story that keeps going on - I wonder if this needs a revision.


You might be right, Greg. But one thing is certain (at least in my setting) if you have a mite load above 'X' at the end of our main flow, the damage is already done, even if the colony outwardly appears populous and thriving right through the time of winter bee rearing. 

The true story is only seen later when the colony dwindles away through the Winter- so makes me think that viral load is the likely root cause... but I very well could be wrong.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> So I conclude the DWV is really overrated - the told and retold story that keeps going on - I wonder if this needs a revision.


disagree.
I see it almost every year.
Maybe your mites are yet to carry this virus.
when you start seeing it, your numbers will be affected.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> disagree.
> I see it almost every year.
> Maybe your mites are yet to carry this virus.
> when you start seeing it, your numbers will be affected.
> 
> GG


Like I said over the five years of me trying the TF - I had *two *obvious cases of DWV (lots of affected bees).
This is for *60 *(+/-) colonies lost. That is a lot of bees.
Otherwise, the bees kept dying just the same - but looking healthy and pretty from the outside.

Yes - I get it there are different viruses and different mutations and different manifestations.
But until I see crawling bees all over, why and how should I blame the losses on the DWV?

The only obvious case of the losses - untreated mite infestation - that one is the obvious case.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> Like I said over the five years of me trying the TF - I had *two *obvious cases of DWV (lots of affected bees).
> This is for *60 *(+/-) colonies lost. That is a lot of bees.
> Otherwise, the bees kept dying just the same - but looking healthy and pretty from the outside.
> 
> Yes - I get it there are different viruses and different mutations and different manifestations.
> But until I see crawling bees all over, why and how should I blame the losses on the DWV?
> 
> The only obvious case of the losses - untreated mite infestation - that one is the obvious case.


not doing a spring treatment,, I see 1 in 10 to 1 in 12 with crawlers.
DWV is like 2 of 20 of the Virus, mites carry, so your mites carry less of DWV and DWV-b is all.
your data points suggest the other virus are enough to affect the bees anyway.

not about blaming DWV

GG


----------



## AR1

Gray Goose said:


> not doing a spring treatment,, I see 1 in 10 to 1 in 12 with crawlers.
> DWV is like 2 of 20 of the Virus, mites carry, so your mites carry less of DWV and DWV-b is all.
> your data points suggest the other virus are enough to affect the bees anyway.
> 
> not about blaming DWV
> 
> GG


I rarely see shriveled wings on bees in the hive, but it is pretty common on mite-infested drone brood. I cut out a chunk of drone brood and dig out the larvae to check for mites. Many of the drones are in bad shape, and it appears worse the more mites are found in one cell. 

I don't know if mites directly cause damage to drone larvae wings; I assume they do. Regardless, whether mites/virus or just mites, something is damaging the drones. I think at this point I have to assume the virus is present and causing an effect.

This does not cause crawlers, or not in large numbers anyway.


----------



## Litsinger

The whole mite-delivered virus complex is such an interesting and frusterating thing. One of the things I thought key about the Genersch et al study was the fact that they found that viruses were ubiquitous in the bee gut and presented no outward disease symptoms- but when synthesized in the mite, DWV-B (in particular) becomes highly pathogenic:









American Foulbrood and Deformed Wing Virus Research


Fascinating discussion between Dr. Kirsten Traynor and Dr. Elke Genersch discussing research into the genetic basis and vector profiles for both AFB and DWV that lead to clinical infection. While I can do the talk no justice, a few highlights: Analyses suggest that there is only one species of...




www.beesource.com





While I really pine for bees that are tolerant to mite-vectored viruses, it seems that the vast majority of successful TF populations (at least those studied) have been largely viable due to keeping mite levels relatively low- and by extension keeping viruses in check.

So much we have yet to learn about this ever-evolving EHB - Varroa Mite interaction.


----------



## Litsinger

Interesting study from last month entitled ‘Honey bees and climate explain viral prevalence in wild bee communities on a continental scale’ _… performed a pan-European assessment of the virosphere of 12 bee communities, each consisting of three bee groups: bumble bees, solitary bee species and sympatric managed honey bees, on a continental scale and across different climatic zones._

Two main takeaways were offered:

Viral loads (specifically SBPV, AKI and DWV) across the studied pollinators were highly correlated regardless of geographic location:

_The viral prevalence of multi-host viruses in the bee community is, amongst others, determined by the presence and density of different host species. As bee hosts are all somehow connected through their shared floral resources and viral transmission can be multidirectional for multi-host viruses in the bee community, we cannot demonstrate the directionality of viral transmission in our study. Nevertheless, we find a strong link between the viral prevalence in wild bees and that of sympatric honey bees. _

Climatic conditions *do not* significantly impact viral loads in managed honey bees, but *do* have a material impact on wild pollinators:

_In spite of the high variation in viral prevalence in managed honey bees across Europe, we found no relation between viral prevalence in managed honey bees and the investigated environmental conditions, temperature and precipitation. In contrast to most wild bee species, honey bees are highly social insects, who actively control the climate within the hive, and can maintain large food reserves to overcome poor foraging conditions; these traits may make their viral dynamics independent from environmental conditions.

Contrary to honey bees, we found that viral prevalence in wild bees was related to environmental conditions, whereby intermediate temperatures and intermediate precipitation of the warmest and driest quarters led to the highest viral prevalence in wild bees.

The impact of climatic conditions, in particular those related to heat and drought stress (precipitation in the driest and in the warmest quarter, temperature in the driest quarter), was consistent across all three viruses. For these environmental conditions, viral prevalence in wild bees was highest in the most moderate (intermediate) conditions and lowest at the extreme ends. _


----------



## Litsinger

Cool update in the latest Kentucky 'BeeLines' publication from Ms. Dorothey Morgan outlining her mite chewing assay protocols:

_Bees that chew mites is another tool in your mite prevention and treatment kit. We are finding these bees in the foot hills and mountains of Kentucky. It is a trait that feral bees developed over the years to survive. Feral stock has to be tough bees to survive on their own these days. 

This is the time of the year for checking your bees for chewing behavior. Some bees can chew and others can’t. It all depends on the length of their mandibles. The shorter the mandible the more grip they have to grab and bite. I find my chewing stock to be excellent honey producers, maybe because of the shorter mandible.

The first thing to take notice of is if the bees are damaging your hive or the things you put in your hive.

Equipment needed to check to see if you have chewing stock:

*Non-sticky mite drop boards* - Use of the true sticky boards will not work, the mite is not able to be removed without major damage to it. Place board under hive that has a screened bottom board. If you have solid bottom boards you can staple on pet screen, which can be found at most hardware stores. Slide the screened mite board into the entrance and place something on top of the board at the entrance to keep it in place.

*Vegetable spray *- Spray the mite board very lightly with the vegetable spray and then almost wipe it off. Mites are very tiny and too much oil will make it impossible to see their legs. Boards should be left in place for at least 48 hours. If you don’t have any mites dropped on the board double that time.

*Light source* - A good led flashlight will make it much easier to see the mites.

*000 paint brush* - This is the right size to easily pick up the mites. Do not use any hard object, using a knife, tooth pick etc. will damage the mite, distorting your inspection.

*Flat black painted metal plate *- Place the mites on this. The flat black will not cause a reflection which would make it difficult to read the mites.

*Digital microscope* - The __DM4__ is a perfect scope to use. It has a rechargeable battery, it’s own light source and a digital screen. Chewing percentage will be affected by bee activity. If there is a strong nectar flow taking place, the chewed percentage will be lower. You should check your hives at least three times a year. Collect the mites one by one with your 000 brush, placing them on their back onto the black metal plate. I like to pencil in an X on the plate. I place the mites on the lines on the plate, this makes it much easier to count and is faster. If any part of the mite is chewed, whether one leg or the entire body, that counts as one chewed. If it is not chewed or damage it is not counted as chewed. Any percentage over 45 percent is good. The higher percentage rate the better._


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> The first thing to take notice of is if the bees are damaging your hive or the things you put in your hive.


Would chewing a crack into an entrance qualify? Sadly not one of the four hives that made it through winter...


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> Would chewing a crack into an entrance qualify?


I think so, William. I've got a colony in the yard working on an 'upper entrance' that they started over the winter.

Like you, I have concluded that this behavior in-and-of-itself does not make the colonies bullet-proof. But it likely does help keep mite numbers in check.


----------



## msl

remembering your Appalachia bees, and our constant theme of location I fould this interesting









Semi-natural habitats promote winter survival of wild-living honeybees in an agricultural landscape


The diversity of endemic honeybee subspecies and ecotypes is at risk in Europe because modern apiculture promotes only a small number of honeybee stra…




www.sciencedirect.com





behind a pay wall, but a review of is says


> They started their studies in Galicia in October 2019 at the suggestion of their Spanish colleague Alejandro Machado. The latter had observed swarms of honeybees occupying the inside of hollow electricity poles and apparently thriving there. In order to find out whether the region would support an entire population of wild bee colonies, the researchers searched a 136 square kilometre area for hollow power poles.
> 
> "We discovered 214 poles," says Rutschmann. For each one, the researchers checked if a honeybee colony lived inside. "In the first year of our investigation, we found 29 colonies." On a second visit in March 2020, they found that 17 of these colonies had survived the winter -- "even though they had neither been fed nor treated against parasites."





> "After two years of study and a total of 52 observed bee colonies, we see that around 40 percent of the colonies survive the winter," reports Alejandro Machado, who himself lives in the region. This is the first data ever reported on the survival rates of wild honeybee colonies in Europe.
> 
> An analysis of the landscape around the power poles showed that the survival of the Galician honeybees strongly depends on how natural the surroundings are. In power poles surrounded by shrubland, heathland or forests many more colonies survive the winter than in power poles located in intensively cultivated fields.
> 
> For colonies surrounded by more than 50 per cent semi-natural habitats, at least every second colony survived the winter. In contrast, in landscapes with less than 25 per cent semi-natural habitat and therefore little supply of food, the probability of survival was close to zero.











How wild honeybees survive the cold winter


In northern Spain, wild honeybees use hollow electricity poles as nesting cavities. Natural areas in the surroundings promote the colonies' chances to survive the winter.



www.sciencedaily.com


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> remembering your Appalachia bees, and our constant theme of location I fould this interesting


MSL:

Thanks for the lead on the study. I contacted Dr. Rutschmann and he sent me a copy of the study (attached).

Two pull quotes and the attached image pretty well tell the tale IMHO.

Thanks again for making me aware of the study!

_… “semi-natural areas” (consisting of broadleaved, coniferous, and mixed forests, and shrubland)… The relatively broad category “semi-natural areas” was created because different forests, heaths and other shrubland types were generally spatially intertwined in the mountainous areas and their occurrence was highly inter-correlated.

… the non-random occupation of power poles observed in autumn suggests that semi-natural zones act as a source habitat of honeybee swarms. … since the distribution of wild-living colonies was even more biased towards semi-natural areas after the winter (and thus before the swarming season), the landscape-dependent occupation of power poles might be readily explained by the landscape-dependent survival of wild-living colonies alone._


----------



## Litsinger

Swarm season is just around the corner here in Western Kentucky. The bees have been intensely foraging over the past several days and I am seeing drones on the wing in the strongest colonies.

Dandelion and Redbud are blooming profusely and the Trillium has just started blooming.

Looking at cues from the last three years:


YearRedbudDronesSwarms2019April 4April 8April 242020March 27March 7April 42021March 29March 27April 202022April 2April 2?

We might look for swarms the third week of April- but the 'Reference Colony' has already had a 'Temperature Event'.

The colonies generally look strong and healthy- I am very tempted to dig into them but I find myself very busy at work and we are still having lows in the 30s.


----------



## Litsinger

One more for today- from a recent Randy Oliver presentation- something to think about:


----------



## adamf

Litsinger said:


> Finally, I noted that VP Queen Bees now offers a VSH Pol-line 2.2 strain- wonder what the back story is on this one?
> 
> Breeding Strains


Ahhh, the back story... It's raining here and I was a good boy and got all my chores done; I have the few minutes to post on this topic.
The USDA Baton Rouge Bee Lab had VSH through Harbo's and later Harbo, Harris and Villa's work. However, they needed to get this valuable heritable suit of traits into bees that were agriculturally viable: bees that performed and were commercially worthy. The Pol-line project was conceived as a "next step" to accomplish this goal. Here's a quote from Bob Danka (USDA Research Head, retired), originally on vshbreeders.org (now offline) in 2013, describing the Pol-line project:


*"Thanks for your interest in this effort. I am not sure how much detail you want but here is the basic story, which has three chapters."*​​*"The bees were derived initially as an offshoot of the research described in an article that I will ask Adam to post. We tested outcrosses of VSH bees in a large, commercial, migratory beekeeping operation that does much crop pollination. We put 60-86 colonies in the field for two consecutive years, and were able to select the best colonies that survived after the bees had been through the coast-to-coast pollination circuit. The initial Pol-line population came from 18 total colonies harvested in 2009 and 2010. These bees were selected because they survived one year with original queens, they had low Varroa infestations, and they had large populations of adult bees."*​​*"We subsequently ran another round of parallel tests in an operation that wintered in the Central Valley of California, pollinated almonds, and later made honey in Montana. We were able to pull in six outcrossed VSH colonies from one (2010) of the two years of the test. All these bees (24 colonies) from the first three years of tests were mixed as they were propagated annually beginning in 2010."*​​*"In 2011 we began to test the Pol-line population, as outcrosses, against VSH outcrosses on a much larger scale in three large commercial operations. We ran a test that began with 560 colonies last spring (2012), and now are propagating 27 colonies selected from the outcrosses of Pol-line and VSH. These will be combined with what remains of the earlier breeding group. We currently also are establishing another group of colonies for testing and selection so we can further widen the genetic base, in case the Pol-line population continues to perform well and further propagation and distribution is desired."*​​*"In sum, we have selected colonies from the best survivors of colonies that were used for intense migratory beekeeping (almonds, apples, lowbush blueberries and cranberries) and later also for honey production (Montana, North Dakota and South Dakota). It is a work in progress as we continue testing the potential of the bees while also harvesting new selected bees. We welcome objective feedback about what you are seeing." *​ 

Glenn Apiaries began receiving some of the project's first results as breeding stock to disseminate and I would assume they named the queens "Pol-line Hygienic Italian". In late 2015, the USDA Bee Lab decided to initiate a breeding project that used VSH and Pol-line materiel employing a specific mating/crossing design. We (VP Queen Bees) now had the MTA (Material Transfer Agreement) with the lab and we believed the Pol-line section methodology that was originally used was robust and sustainable. In early 2016 we met at the Baton Rouge with Bob Danka and many of the other scientists involved with the Pol-line project. Two of the three original Pol-line commercial cooperators, Evergreen Honey and Lambs Honey Farm attended, as well as Coy Bee Company from the Russian Breeders Association. We discussed and outlined our plans to continue utilizing the "Pol-line" project's design, selecting for mite resistance within large populations of commercial bees. We left the meeting with the lab's support and a loose plan. Over the following couple of years VP Queen Bees, Evergreen Honey/The B Farm and Lambs Honey Farm worked out our selection and testing methodology and renamed our initial results as "VSH Pol-line 2.2" as our project differed slightly from the USDA's and we did not want to take credit for their excellent effort with the Pol-line.

The beauty of any "Pol-line" type selective breeding program is that it may be utilized within any significant population of honey bees, selecting for varroa mite resistance and any other desirable traits.
Now in the sixth year of the breeding program, VSH Pol-line 2.2 breeding stock is available from us. We continue making crosses with suitable candidates of this high performing varroa resistant stock and performing evaluations on them for yield, temperament, build-up and longevity. Our partners who produce production queens: The B Farm and Lambs Honey Farm have been performing similar testing and evaluations. The results are exciting and we're encouraged to continue with this breeding program. Honey bee breeders spend long hours each season performing tests and recording results: the resulting stock, showing varroa mite resistance and performing well in intense commercial applications, as well as side-line operations, continues to develop and is inspiring to work with.

Research has just been published demonstrating how the Pol-line breeding/selection model can produce honey bee populations that are hardy, mite resistant and potentially sustainable. Here's a condensed version of the research, from a reliable source.

Give a shout if you have any questions, comments, complaints, rants, praise etc. etc. etc.

Adam


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Swarm season is just around the corner here in Western Kentucky.


First swarm of the season here at the home yard- about a week earlier than last year.

Been a lot of local anecdotes of people looking for help getting rid of swarms- looks to be shaping up to be a 'swarmy' year around here.

How's everybody else faring?


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## plantman

That's a nice swarm..
What kind of tree is it on?


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## plantman

Or vine?


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## Litsinger

adamf said:


> The beauty of any "Pol-line" type selective breeding program is that it may be utilized within any significant population of honey bees, selecting for varroa mite resistance and any other desirable traits.


Adam:

Thank you for your very detailed and helpful post. I do apologize for my delay in reply- I wanted to reread your feedback to make sure I took in everything you shared and also had time to compose a meaningful response.

As I read your feedback concerning the original Pol-line selection effort, I can't help but be reminded of the recent ARS data published- I am sure you have seen it (but if not):









ARS-Developed Varroa-Resistant Honey Bees Better Winter...


ARS-Developed Varroa-Resistant Honey Bees Better Winter Survivors (govdelivery.com) The actual pub: A derived honey bee stock confers resistance to Varroa destructor and associated viral transmission | Scientific Reports (nature.com)




www.beesource.com





I certainly would not expect you to reveal your 'secret sauce' but is there a generalized rubric you can offer that outlines the general selection criteria and weighting you all utilize in ranking potential breeders? As someone who has not yet seriously engaged in artificial selection, I worry about placing too much emphasis on a particular trait and unwittingly mitigating an issue only to create another.

Along these lines, is the Harbo VSH assay the only metric you all utilize to measure resistance or are you also looking at mite population growth, mauling, uncapping/recapping or any other resistance evaluations?

You may not know, but does the Hilo project that Danka and company are currently working on utilize selection elements informed by the Pol-line results?

Your collaborative breeding and selection program seems akin to the approach that the University of Guelph recently took in developing their Low Varroa Growth platform- do you ever bring genetics back in from your commercial clients for assessment as contributors to your breeding program similar to the ORHBS program?

Finally, I do hear consistently good feedback about your queens. I commend you and your team for the patient, diligent and no-doubt at times arduous efforts you all undertake to develop resistant breeding stock that is commercially viable.

Us mere mortals who are nothing more than glorified swarm beekeepers have a lot to learn from you guys.

Thanks again for the feedback- please always feel welcome to pop-in here and comment when you are rained-out. Since you can't work in the bee yard anyway, might as well talk bees.  

Happy Easter to you and your family.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

plantman said:


> Or vine?


Thanks, @plantman.

We call them 'grape vines' around here but more accurately they are wild muscadines:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_rotundifolia



Around here the prevailing wild type produces a berry about the size of a marble and they are quite good if you can get to them after they are ripe but before the birds - which is hard to do.

How's your season starting out?


----------



## adamf

Litsinger said:


> Adam:
> 
> Thank you for your very detailed and helpful post. I do apologize for my delay in reply- I wanted to reread your feedback to make sure I took in everything you shared and also had time to compose a meaningful response.
> 
> As I read your feedback concerning the original Pol-line selection effort, I can't help but be reminded of the recent ARS data published- I am sure you have seen it (but if not):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ARS-Developed Varroa-Resistant Honey Bees Better Winter...
> 
> 
> ARS-Developed Varroa-Resistant Honey Bees Better Winter Survivors (govdelivery.com) The actual pub: A derived honey bee stock confers resistance to Varroa destructor and associated viral transmission | Scientific Reports (nature.com)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.beesource.com


The research paper in *Nature* is what I cited in my post as well. I didn't see there was another thread devoted to it. The research is rigorous and as it's published in *Nature*, the reviewing/vetting process is thorough.
All of us who work on the Pol-line 2.2 project wish the primary author had acknowledged that our efforts _are _commercial and have been going on for some time; sometimes these small details get lost though. The take-away is that there's proof that selection for mite resistance can occur successfully in conjunction with other positive traits. Others have said that this has already been shown. This paper was to focus on virus, and low and behold, it shows that colonies with the lowest mite populations fared better, regardless of viral load. That's a pretty significant piece of knowledge!



Litsinger said:


> I certainly would not expect you to reveal your 'secret sauce' but is there a generalized rubric you can offer that outlines the general selection criteria and weighting you all utilize in ranking potential breeders? As someone who has not yet seriously engaged in artificial selection, I worry about placing too much emphasis on a particular trait and unwittingly mitigating an issue only to create another.
> 
> Along these lines, is the Harbo VSH assay the only metric you all utilize to measure resistance or are you also looking at mite population growth, mauling, uncapping/recapping or any other resistance evaluations?
> 
> You may not know, but does the Hilo project that Danka and company are currently working on utilize selection elements informed by the Pol-line results?
> 
> Your collaborative breeding and selection program seems akin to the approach that the University of Guelph recently took in developing their Low Varroa Growth platform- do you ever bring genetics back in from your commercial clients for assessment as contributors to your breeding program similar to the ORHBS program?


Breeding is based on selection. A breeder has a goal and selects breeding units from populations to reach that goal. There's no real "secret sauce" or "mumbo-jumbo" to selection. We take what fits our goals and reject everything else. Running everything in our population _un-treated_ is key to our selection. Being able to test selections from a large population (~ 40K colonies ) is also necessary for the results of the sections to be valid. We know that if a queen has performed well over two years, has remained untreated for one of the two and combines (crosses) well with our drones, she's a breeding candidate. If we tested a queen from a population of 100 colonies, the certainty of our selection would be much less.

We do not use Harbo's assay. Harbo's assay is a version of the the USDA Baton Rouge Lab's set of assays available for everyone to use. One of them, "non-reproductive test", is the most efficient method for determining if a colony is expressing VSH behavior. Harbo's variation on "scoring" VSH levels makes some genetic assumptions that have not necessarily been shown to be accurate. The way VSH is inherited still isn't completely understood. Until it is, we will be conservative about our selections, and not base crosses on ratios or "levels" of VSH expression.

We use the alcohol wash assay to measure phoretic mites at given times throughout the season. It's not ideal, but colonies that have shown good VSH expression using the "non-reproductive test" have also shown low levels of phoretic mites with the alcohol wash test. In an untreated population, this "one-two punch" of low mite counts (through alcohol wash test results) _without_ _any mite treatments, _has been effective for us. The big picture to understanding mite resistance is that _colonies that reduce the mite population_, are resistant. Certainly, if we had the time and the help, we'd perform a non-reproductive test on all our candidates. One curious reality in working with this assay is: what do you do when you are not able to find reproductive mites or non reproductive mites in cells? That happens and obviously it's progress, but it shows that the assay has a specific merit. I've not seen consistent "0" mite counts using the alcohol wash assay.

The Hilo project was initiated using Pol-line and VSH material from the lab with a type of mating/crossing technique that differed from the original Pol-line program. We continued the Pol-line model while Hilo utilized this other breeding technique.They received good funding and were able to do quite a lot of work. Their results to date are published and they are continuing their work.

I don't have all the details of what the University of Guelph is doing, but they're a competent group-- most likely a similar model to ours as the "KISS" principle works really well. We also test guest candidates if they have potential. If something comes into our population and makes it through the year and Winter untreated, we'll give it a good look. Sadly, we've not had anything outside of the USDA's breeding or our own be able to do this.



Litsinger said:


> Finally, I do hear consistently good feedback about your queens. I commend you and your team for the patient, diligent and no-doubt at times arduous efforts you all undertake to develop resistant breeding stock that is commercially viable.


Thank you. All of our group believes in what we do and we work hard at it. There are many points of failure in a bee breeding program spanning half the USA and multiple climatic zones, with multiple personnel , but we're happy how things have progressed and are continuing our work.

I'd encourage more folks to work together on making a collective selection program, for their areas. The more colonies you have to work with, the more effective the selection will be.


Adam


----------



## Litsinger

adamf said:


> This paper was to focus on virus, and low and behold, it shows that colonies with the lowest mite populations fared better, regardless of viral load. That's a pretty significant piece of knowledge!


@adamf:

Thank you for your detailed feedback. This was my take-away from the paper as well. It has me wondering if populations that lack overt DWV infection in the face of high mite loads due so at least in part due to the absence of mite-vectored DWV-B. 



adamf said:


> We use the alcohol wash assay to measure phoretic mites at given times throughout the season. It's not ideal, but colonies that have shown good VSH expression using the "non-reproductive test" have also shown low levels of phoretic mites with the alcohol wash test. In an untreated population, this "one-two punch" of low mite counts (through alcohol wash test results) _without_ _any mite treatments, _has been effective for us. The big picture to understanding mite resistance is that _colonies that reduce the mite population_, are resistant. Certainly, if we had the time and the help, we'd perform a non-reproductive test on all our candidates. One curious reality in working with this assay is: what do you do when you are not able to find reproductive mites or non reproductive mites in cells? That happens and obviously it's progress, but it shows that the assay has a specific merit. I've not seen consistent "0" mite counts using the alcohol wash assay.


I may be misinterpreting your feedback, but I understand you to say that you are not conducting any specific VSH assays but are rather using mite population growth (as identified by mite washes) as your sole metric for resistance? If so, your program is indeed similar to the resistance breeding program that Randy Oliver is conducting and akin to the the University of Guelph LVG Program which uses mite fall in lieu of mite wash as the metric.



adamf said:


> Sadly, we've not had anything outside of the USDA's breeding or our own be able to do this.


Again, I may be misappropriating your feedback (and I do apologize if so), but I take your comments to mean that there have not been any examples as-yet of ongoing resistance in subsequent generations of your breeder stock once faced with the challenges of open mating? I am surprised that no one has tried to sustain their progeny via II and working with multiple queen lines?

I do appreciate your feedback and your efforts- the more I study this stuff, the more I:

1. Realize how challenging and costly resistance breeding is.

2. Appreciate those who are taking it on as a serious pursuit.


----------



## adamf

@Litsinger:



Litsinger said:


> I may be misinterpreting your feedback, but I understand you to say that you are not conducting any specific VSH assays but are rather using mite population growth (as identified by mite washes) as your sole metric for resistance? If so, your program is indeed similar to the resistance breeding program that Randy Oliver is conducting and akin to the the University of Guelph LVG Program which uses mite fall in lieu of mite wash as the metric.


I was not clear. Pardons. Breeders are chosen in the two operations we work with yearly, based on selection that includes several alcohol wash tests.They then come to our operation where we perform alcohol wash tests and non-reproductive tests at times. The salient point is that this population is based on a breeding program that was the original Pol-line program. The USDA worked with our two collaborators and VSH expressing stock was mated to the population, as Bob Danka outlined in his quote in my first post. We have been working with the USDA and have received VSH expressing stock from them for many years (I received queens from Harbo back in 1998 or 1999). By using AI, we control our matings completely and can curate our desired expressions more easily. Randy Oliver's program and the UG LVG program differ from ours in this way. Sometimes I'll perform non-reproductive tests on a candidate. Sometimes only an alcohol wash. It depends on how much I feel I need to know about the VSH expression for that candidate. Without any treatment, observation of mite population growth inhibition is easily seen in breeding colonies.

If your whole operation is untreated and has been so for many years, a thriving, high-yielding colony clearly demonstrates _the ability to limit mite population growth. _On the flip-side, if a well-vetted colony from a famous queen breeder dies in one season in your population, it was susceptible and other colonies like it are not good candidates. Breeding is based on selection. If a breeder can use an umbrella selection test, they save time and resources. The "Bond" method works pretty darn well when you have a population with mite resistance as potential expressions. Does this make sense?



Litsinger said:


> Again, I may be misappropriating your feedback (and I do apologize if so), but I take your comments to mean that there have not been any examples as-yet of ongoing resistance in subsequent generations of your breeder stock once faced with the challenges of open mating? I am surprised that no one has tried to sustain their progeny via II and working with multiple queen lines?


Again, I was unclear. We test queens outside of our breeding program at times. These have always failed. The queens in our program and their progeny, if managed and bred with good selection, continue to perform well; not many people do this though. Our customers report that the frequency of their mite treatments has lessened over time, using our stock.



Litsinger said:


> I do appreciate your feedback and your efforts- the more I study this stuff, the more I:
> 
> 1. Realize how challenging and costly resistance breeding is.
> 
> 2. Appreciate those who are taking it on as a serious pursuit.


They say that's why breeders have grey hair. Or in my case, very litte gray hair... 

Adam


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney

Litsinger said:


> First swarm of the season here at the home yard- about a week earlier than last year.


Swarm in the home yard . There is work to do


----------



## Litsinger

adamf said:


> If a breeder can use an umbrella selection test, they save time and resources. The "Bond" method works pretty darn well when you have a population with mite resistance as potential expressions. Does this make sense?


Adam:

Thanks again for the helpful feedback. Your approach makes perfect sense to me, and it seems in my very humble view that what really matters at the end of the day is keeping mite population growth under control- via whatever mechanism(s) the population has at their disposal.

The Nature study was very heartening, and I do sincerely appreciate you taking the time to respond to the inquiries of a curious hobby beekeeper.

Please feel welcome to pop-in and comment anytime- I will be looking forward to continued updates regarding your breeding operation and a shared hope that one day resistance will be ubiquitous in our commercial stocks.

Thank you again for your feedback- and have a great week.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> Swarm in the home yard . There is work to do


Guilty as charged! To be fair, it has still been cold around here in the evenings- and I am not altogether sure this swarm even came from my colonies.

That said, tonight looks like the last night for a fire in the extended forecast so maybe I can now dive into the colonies with impunity starting this weekend.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> That said, tonight looks like the last night for a fire in the extended forecast so maybe I can now dive into the colonies with impunity starting this weekend.


I stopped bringing in new firewood and told my wife to burn the last of it tonight,,,but it snowed an inch last night and the extended forecast continues to show lots of numbers in the 30s at night. So I may have to bring in another load. Wife likes her fire.


----------



## BEE J

AR1 said:


> I stopped bringing in new firewood and told my wife to burn the last of it tonight,,,but it snowed an inch last night and the extended forecast continues to show lots of numbers in the 30s at night. So I may have to bring in another load. Wife likes her fire.


We're even running are's here down south!


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> That said, tonight looks like the last night for a fire in the extended forecast so maybe I can now dive into the colonies with impunity starting this weekend.


I think were almost done with the cold! Almost time to plant the watermelons. Last year one grew over 40lbs., and I wonder if we'll beat it this year.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Wife likes her fire.


You know what they say, _"If momma ain't happy..." _



BEE J said:


> We're even running are's here down south!


I was talking with Cory Stevens yesterday and he mentioned that this is the latest he can remember ever starting the queen rearing season.



BEE J said:


> Almost time to plant the watermelons.


Now we're talking- whereabouts are you located, @BEE J?


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> I was talking with Cory Stevens yesterday and he mentioned that this is the latest he can remember ever starting the queen rearing season.


It feels late so far zero inspections other than lifting the lids.
maybe I am impatient, but it feels like a week or so later than normal.

GG


----------



## AR1

Gray Goose said:


> It feels late so far zero inspections other than lifting the lids.
> maybe I am impatient, but it feels like a week or so later than normal.
> 
> GG


Flowering is a couple weeks later than average here, but we did have a spring a few years ago that was a week later. My timeline is only 5 years long, so not very reliable info, but given what I have, this is only a little later than 'average' for my area. Good news is it is supposed to hit 80 degrees on Saturday!


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> I was talking with Cory Stevens yesterday and he mentioned that this is the latest he can remember ever starting the queen rearing season.


No kidding... this morning we were hit with a frost, it's a good thing we covered the garden.! P.S. Queen rearing sounds pretty cool to me, but I know next to nothing about it 😊.


----------



## BEE J

Gray Goose said:


> It feels late so far zero inspections other than lifting the lids.
> maybe I am impatient, but it feels like a week or so later than normal.
> 
> GG


I don't know if you've ever heard of "dark winter". A guy from NASA wrote a book on it. I belive it's how there is a period of cooler temperatures worldwide which occurs normally every x number of years. I haven't read the book much so don't quote me, though. It is another piece of evidence against the whole "global warming" idea going around in the scientific community.
Your temps probably don't have much to do with any of that though😁, it's just what makes every year special!


----------



## BEE J

AR1 said:


> Good news is it is supposed to hit 80 degrees on Saturday!


Way to go!🥳🥤🥤🥤


----------



## drummerboy

BEE J said:


> I don't know if you've ever heard of "dark winter". A guy from NASA wrote a book on it. I belive it's how there is a period of cooler temperatures worldwide which occurs normally every x number of years. I haven't read the book much so don't quote me, though. It is another piece of evidence against the whole "global warming" idea going around in the scientific community.
> Your temps probably don't have much to do with any of that though😁, it's just what makes every year special!


Hmm, yes. I've got a copy around here someplace. It refers to the 'cyclical wobble' that our planet experiences every 13,000 years, which we are now entering. Historically, there's not a lot going on during the period before, don't ya wonder why? 

Too bad you didn't bother to read it. wasupwidat?

It also reminds me of another NOVEL; "The Place Called Attar" by JD Belanger, a blend of science fact and fiction that results with a global ice age. One year in the not too distant future it starts snowing....and doesn't stop for 10,000 plus years. Pretty compelling stuff for the 'true believers' among us. 

"Happy Trails" Pardners' Good luck with your bees!


----------



## BEE J

drummerboy said:


> Too bad you didn't bother to read it. wasupwidat?


😁🤷‍♂️


drummerboy said:


> Hmm, yes. I've got a copy around here someplace. It refers to the 'cyclical wobble' that our planet experiences every 13,000 years, which we are now entering. Historically, there's not a lot going on during the period before, don't ya wonder why?


This is good evidence which shows that *climates have always been changing* and this whole "global warming" propaganda is merely political. While I think this guy's dates are a bit off, he may be on to something. 

Proposed Bible-Science Perspective on Global Warming | Answers Research Journal There's a MASSIVE amount of information in this article (I just skimmed through it) but if anyone is interested it's a great resource!!!!!


----------



## crofter

BEE J said:


> 😁🤷‍♂️
> 
> This is good evidence which shows that *climates have always been changing* and this whole "global warming" propaganda is merely political. While I think this guy's dates are a bit off, he may be on to something.
> 
> Proposed Bible-Science Perspective on Global Warming | Answers Research Journal There's a MASSIVE amount of information in this article (I just skimmed through it) but if anyone is interested it's a great resource!!!!!


The above post is directing to religion based argument. Take that to the Tailgater Forum; Religion and politics discussions on a bee centric forum causes problems.


----------



## drummerboy

Science; the only religion worthy of trust.


----------



## BEE J

Warmed up here! A honey bee scout buzzed around a shelter I was working on. Please little guy tell your freinds about my swarm traps! 
So far nothing in the traps. Considering alternatives.


----------



## BEE J

crofter said:


> The above post is directing to religion based argument. Take that to the Tailgater Forum; Religion and politics discussions on a bee centric forum causes problems.


Me and drummer were just chatting a bit. But, I do relize this is a bee forum.


----------



## crofter

BEE J said:


> Me and drummer were just chatting a bit. But, I do relize this is a bee forum.


Yes, I realize that. Past experience tells me that discussions on such unresolvable issues only leads to deeper entrenchment of positions, not solutions. Takes away from beekeeping solutions we are here after.


----------



## BEE J

crofter said:


> Yes, I realize that. Past experience tells me that discussions on such unresolvable issues only leads to deeper entrenchment of positions, not solutions. Takes away from beekeeping solutions we are here after.


I understand. This forum is for beekeeping. I hope it's okay if we can at least mention other things that are sort-of related. Like Greg using the example of Ukrainians eating sugar to relate to his point. We should try to stick to beekeeping, but I hope it's alright to at least mention the positions we take in are personal lives *which can affect how we look and take to beekeeping.     *

Keep Buzzing, BEEJ


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> This forum is for beekeeping.


Bee J - there are "Coffee Clutch" and "Tailgater" subforums - climate change and other near-political subjects are actually discussed there.


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Bee J - there are "Coffee Clutch" and "Tailgater" subforums - climate change and other near-political subjects are actually discussed there.


Thanks for telling me, Greg! I hope your season is getting off to a great start!

Thanks, BEEJ


----------



## BEE J

Are those sub forums off this forum? Did Barry start them too?


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> Are those sub forums off this forum? Did Barry start them too?


Just scroll down the list of sub-forums.
At the very bottom you should see this:


https://www.beesource.com/forums/coffee-klatch.276/



For the Tailgate access you should ask admin help.


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> Thanks for telling me, Greg! I hope your season is getting off to a great start!
> 
> Thanks, BEEJ


We are having a very hard, late spring.
Doing fine though.









GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.


Anyway, relevant to this conversation, eating drones was pretty common. Just pluck them off the landing boards or frames and munch. LOL Wow. Do they spit any hard skins and the wings out? :) I am not that advanced in drone eating, not even close. But for sure, the pressed "drone milk" mixes...




www.beesource.com


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> We should try to stick to beekeeping, but I hope it's alright to at least mention the positions we take in are personal lives *which can affect how we look and take to beekeeping.    *


@BEE J while I don't make the rules around here, I think the ethos of what you are saying here resonates with me- as long as we are communicating in a respectful manner that allows for the free exchange of ideas and the focus ultimately comes back to the art and science of beekeeping, I hope we have a little room to meander from time to time.

To be certain, our local climate has direct applicability to our beekeeping- and there is no doubt in my mind that our worldview informs everything- including our beekeeping.

Glad you've been chiming-in and best of success to you this season- looking forward to reading about how things go for you.


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> Considering alternatives.


Have you put your name on every 'swarm call' list in the region?

Extension Office, Police/Fire Departments, Facebook, Pest Control Companies?


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Just scroll down the list of sub-forums.
> At the very bottom you should see this:
> 
> 
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/coffee-klatch.276/
> 
> 
> 
> For the Tailgate access you should ask admin help.


I didn't now that was there! Thanks so much, Greg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   A place to post some not-so-related thoughts!


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> We are having a very hard, late spring.
> Doing fine though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.
> 
> 
> Anyway, relevant to this conversation, eating drones was pretty common. Just pluck them off the landing boards or frames and munch. LOL Wow. Do they spit any hard skins and the wings out? :) I am not that advanced in drone eating, not even close. But for sure, the pressed "drone milk" mixes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.beesource.com


Sorry to here, but glad the bees are okay. No losses, great!!!! I understand you feeding them up north there! It's just finally warming up from that little cold front that came to us down south. Just a day or two ago we had a frost down here that hit us. I noticed the chestnut leaves shriveled up, but I think more are going to sprout, so it should be fine! It's the annuals you got 'a watch.


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> @BEE J while I don't make the rules around here, I think the ethos of what you are saying here resonates with me- as long as we are communicating in a respectful manner that allows for the free exchange of ideas and the focus ultimately comes back to the art and science of beekeeping, I hope we have a little room to meander from time to time.
> 
> To be certain, our local climate has direct applicability to our beekeeping- and there is no doubt in my mind that our worldview informs everything- including our beekeeping.
> 
> Glad you've been chiming-in and best of success to you this season- looking forward to reading about how things go for you.


Thanks! I agree about sharing some of our beliefs as long as were respectful and don't wander to far off the goal of this forum. I guess you could take the conversation father on the sub forums! It sounds like we may be kindred spirits, I am a believer of how our worldview totally effects everything in our lives. I am looking forward to learning from you, and thanks Litsinger, you've been really encouraging.

Sincerely, BEEJ


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> Have you put your name on every 'swarm call' list in the region?
> 
> Extension Office, Police/Fire Departments, Facebook, Pest Control Companies?


No Sir, I haven't. I really didn't feel that comfortable about doing that yet, but in the future I definitely would consider it!!! I don't really have access to my own vehicle, so I wouldn't want to put that on somebody else. I know a lot of beekeepers are doing it though, so I might be missing out... have you ever tried it?  I know it could save you like $200.

Keep Buzzing, BEEJ


----------



## AR1

BEE J said:


> Warmed up here! A honey bee scout buzzed around a shelter I was working on. Please little guy tell your freinds about my swarm traps!
> So far nothing in the traps. Considering alternatives.


Bee J, put your location in your profile, at least the state. No idea if you can be expecting swarms yet. Where I am, not for another month at least. Down south, they are well into swarm season.


----------



## BEE J

AR1 said:


> Bee J, put your location in your profile, at least the state. No idea if you can be expecting swarms yet. Where I am, not for another month at least. Down south, they are well into swarm season.


You can't see my location on my profile? When I hover over my avatar it shows: Virginia, USA. I might have locked it or something? Anyway, I'm in a small town in southern VA about an hour from the border of North Carolina. It's zone 7a here. I'm in Halifax county near the bottom of it. I hope that helps!


----------



## jtgoral

BEE J said:


> You can't see my location on my profile? When I hover over my avatar it shows: Virginia, USA. I might have locked it or something? Anyway, I'm in a small town in southern VA about an hour from the border of North Carolina. It's zone 7a here. I'm in Halifax county near the bottom of it. I hope that helps!


I do not see your location when I hover. Is it public?


----------



## BEE J

H


jtgoral said:


> I do not see your location when I hover. Is it public?


Hold on a sec...


----------



## BEE J

It says it's private. I think that means only the folks I follow get to see it? So you can't see my location when you hover right?


----------



## jtgoral

BEE J said:


> It says it's private. I think that means only the folks I follow get to see it? So you can't see my location when you hover right?


no location. Can you see mine?


----------



## Gray Goose

I see 
*BEE J*
Registered · From Virginia, USA

and
*jtgoral*
Registered · From Downers Grove, IL, USA


GG


----------



## BEE J

jtgoral said:


> no location. Can you see mine?


Yes I can see yours.


----------



## BEE J

Gray Goose said:


> I see
> *BEE J*
> Registered · From Virginia, USA
> 
> and
> *jtgoral*
> Registered · From Downers Grove, IL, USA
> 
> 
> GG


Gray Goose, I think you can see because I'm following you. Let me try following *@jtgoral* and see if that's why.


----------



## BEE J

Can you see my location now? Is the rest of my profile visible? Can you see my interests, for instance?


----------



## jtgoral

BEE J said:


> Can you see my location now? Is the rest of my profile visible? Can you see my interests, for instance?


Yes, I see where are you located.
It helps when one gives information which can be location specific, like what is blooming, I saw first drones,....


----------



## BEE J

jtgoral said:


> Yes, I see where are you located.
> It helps when one gives information which can be location specific, like what is blooming, I saw first drones,....


My suspicion was correct. When your location is private only the people you follow can see it. I just put you, jtgoral, on my list of people I'm following so you can see it. I'm in Halifax, VA. Do you know any info regarding this area?


----------



## jtgoral

BEE J said:


> My suspicion was correct. When your location is private only the people you follow can see it. I just put you, jtgoral, on my list of people I'm following so you can see it. I'm in Halifax, VA. Do you know any info regarding this area?


Not much. I drove once through the area going to Avon on Hatteras for windsurfing. Many years ago


----------



## BEE J

jtgoral said:


> Not much. I drove once through the area going to Avon on Hatteras for windsurfing. Many years ago


Do you think that in my climate I am missing out on the first swarms (I'm in zone 7a). It's cool you've driven through here. P.S. Is Avon on Hatteras near the outer banks? They got good wind out there?


----------



## jtgoral

BEE J said:


> Do you think that in my climate I am missing out on the first swarms (I'm in zone 7a). It's cool you've driven through here. P.S. Is Avon on Hatteras near the outer banks? They got good wind out there?


Yes, that Avon was a windsurfing East Coast destination.
I know nothing about catching swarms, sorry...


----------



## BEE J

jtgoral said:


> Yes, that Avon was a windsurfing East Coast destination.


Cool! I don't remember ever hearing about it.


jtgoral said:


> I know nothing about catching swarms, sorry...


That's fine! Hey, I don't know anything about windsurfing! Thanks for your help, mate!!!

Keep Buzzing, BEEJ


----------



## William Bagwell

BEE J said:


> My suspicion was correct. When your location is private only the people you follow can see it.


It also does not show a flag so we can not even see which country you are in.


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> I know a lot of beekeepers are doing it though, so I might be missing out... have you ever tried it?





BEE J said:


> Do you think that in my climate I am missing out on the first swarms (I'm in zone 7a).


@BEE J:

I do get several calls from local contacts about swarms every year- some turn out to be a bust, but many result in nice colonies- especially when you are alerted by folks who are savvy about bees and want to see them homed successfully.

I am also in Climate Zone 7a, but quite a bit West of you. I started hearing about several swarms last week and have hived three this week- so we are definately entering peak swarm season for us- mid April to mid May.

So if you're on FB, post a message telling your friends you're looking for swarms and then hurry and get your gear ready!


----------



## BEE J

William Bagwell said:


> It also does not show a flag so we can not even see which country you are in.


Maybe I'm not even from earth.  Just kidding. Probably the north pole.
Anyway, I am an American. I live in a small town in southern VA.


----------



## drummerboy

Adding your location to your profile will assist and 'limit' those who respond to you. The methods we use in Northern Wisconsin are quite a bit different than Virginia.


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> @BEE J:
> 
> I do get several calls from local contacts about swarms every year- some turn out to be a bust, but many result in nice colonies- especially when you are alerted by folks who are savvy about bees and want to see them homed successfully.
> 
> I am also in Climate Zone 7a, but quite a bit West of you. I started hearing about several swarms last week and have hived three this week- so we are definately entering peak swarm season for us- mid April to mid May.
> 
> So if you're on FB, post a message telling your friends you're looking for swarms and then hurry and get your gear ready!


I think we are in the same climate. I'm in Halifax, VA. I think pretty much on the same latitude. I'm not sure if I'm ready to try and collect swarms on the area, this year. Since were entering the peak swarm season maybe I should give my traps a few more weeks. But what if I miss my chance to get a nuc or package? I don't want to miss out on a whole year.
Thanks for telling me about asking around for swarms! It sounds like a very promising way to get free bees!


----------



## BEE J

drummerboy said:


> Adding your location to your profile will assist and 'limit' those who respond to you. The methods we use in Northern Wisconsin are quite a bit different than Virginia.


I just need to check something first... then I can think about getting my location public. I guess it would help everybody give me informed answers. So you can't see my location now?


----------



## William Bagwell

BEE J said:


> So you can't see my location now?


Flag is now visible, location not.


----------



## BEE J

William Bagwell said:


> Flag is now visible, location not.


What? I don't get what's happening with it. I want my location to be visible when I post but my profile private for those I follow. Can you see any info when you go to my profile? Can you see my interests?


----------



## BEE J

I did some adjusting. Can you see my location when you hover above my avatar? Can you see personal info on my profile?


----------



## William Bagwell

Negitive, "Oops! We ran into some problems.
This member limits who may view their full profile"

Me following you does not change anything.


----------



## BEE J

William Bagwell said:


> Negitive, "Oops! We ran into some problems.
> This member limits who may view their full profile"
> 
> Me following you does not change anything.


I think I have to follow you, for you to see. Can you see my location when you hover over my avetar?


----------



## William Bagwell

BEE J said:


> I think I have to follow you, for you to see. Can you see my location when you hover over my avetar?


Yes.


----------



## drummerboy

Nope, can't see it, and I for one tend not to intrude or offer advise on discussions if a location isn't given. One can get in trouble real quick if the wrong advise is offered, and knowing someones general location will limit such episodes.

Giving your location isn't a big deal, no one will see 'where' (like an address) you live unless you give the nod with a pm. 

BTW; I think this site has pretty good security, so imho I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## jtgoral

BEE J said:


> I think I have to follow you, for you to see. Can you see my location when you hover over my avetar?


This is what I have in my Profile:

Account Settings->Privacy->View your location details on your profile->*All Visitors*


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> Since were entering the peak swarm season maybe I should give my traps a few more weeks. But what if I miss my chance to get a nuc or package? I don't want to miss out on a whole year.


@BEE J: 

That is a dilemma- do you know any beekeepers in your local area?

If so you could have them make you up a nuc or two while you leave your traps out for another 3 weeks or so.

Just a thought...


----------



## BEE J

William Bagwell said:


> Yes.


Finally! I put you in my following, so I think that's why.


----------



## BEE J

drummerboy said:


> Nope, can't see it, and I for one tend not to intrude or offer advise on discussions if a location isn't given. One can get in trouble real quick if the wrong advise is offered, and knowing someones general location will limit such episodes.
> 
> Giving your location isn't a big deal, no one will see 'where' (like an address) you live unless you give the nod with a pm.
> 
> BTW; I think this site has pretty good security, so imho I wouldn't worry about it.


I think your right. Are you sure you can't see my location when you hover over my avatar next to my post? What does it mean to "give the nod with pm". I think they have pretty good security too.


----------



## BEE J

jtgoral said:


> This is what I have in my Profile:
> 
> Account Settings->Privacy->View your location details on your profile->*All Visitors*


But you should see it if your members, right?


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> @BEE J:
> 
> That is a dilemma- do you know any beekeepers in your local area?
> 
> If so you could have them make you up a nuc or two while you leave your traps out for another 3 weeks or so.
> 
> Just a thought...


I haven't gotten linked in yet, but I know I should. It would be great to get local bees, but if that doesn't happen do you think one of mann lake's packages would work?


----------



## jtgoral

BEE J said:


> But you should see it if your members, right?


My wife can see it on her laptop and she is not a member. She went to beesource.com for the first time.


----------



## drummerboy

BEE J said:


> I think your right. Are you sure you can't see my location when you hover over my avatar next to my post? What does it mean to "give the nod with pm". I think they have pretty good security too.


"give the nod with a pm" If you wanted to reach out to another member (off the general forum) you could send a pm (personal msg) right from your profile page and share whatever info about yourself and/or each other.

I still cannot see your location, but its ok, I should remember that you're in Virginia. 

Got any beekeeping questions/concerns? Summers coming and this place can get lean once it breaks....raining today, its the only reason I'm here.


----------



## BEE J

jtgoral said:


> My wife can see it on her laptop and she is not a member.


Good! So she can see my location. But, when she goes to my profile can she find my other personal info?



jtgoral said:


> She went to beesource.com for the first time.


🥳 🥳 🥳


----------



## jtgoral

BEE J said:


> Good! So she can see my location. But, when she goes to my profile can she find my other personal info?
> 
> 
> 🥳 🥳 🥳


No. I do not see it either. No location. She can see locations I can see. Have you set up yours security settings like mine?


----------



## BEE J

drummerboy said:


> "give the nod with a pm" If you wanted to reach out to another member (off the general forum) you could send a pm (personal msg) right from your profile page and share whatever info about yourself and/or each other.







drummerboy said:


> I still cannot see your location, but its ok, I should remember that you're in Virginia.


What? I thought everyone could see it now? I might need some professional help here. Maybe we should call in some experienced folks. I'm in Halifax county, VA: zone 7a.



drummerboy said:


> Got any beekeeping questions/concerns? Summers coming and this place can get lean once it breaks....raining today, its the only reason I'm here.


I set up a few swarm traps, but no success. Now I am considering a package or nuc, as I don't want to miss out on what would have been my first season ever. I'm not sure what I should do. Mann Lake sells some good-looking packages, but there are also probably several local people I could get Nucs from. How would you recommend a new beekeeper get his first bees?


----------



## BEE J

jtgoral said:


> No. I do not see it either. No location. She can see locations I can see. Have you set up yours security settings like mine?


Can you please confirm? You mean you do not see my personal info on my profile, but you can see my location when you hover over my avatar (to the left).


----------



## jtgoral

BEE J said:


> Can you please confirm? You mean you do not see my personal info on my profile, but you can see my location when you hover over my avatar (to the left).












Unlike mine:


----------



## BEE J

jtgoral said:


> View attachment 68775


OH NO! I am going to look into my settings again later.


----------



## BEE J

When I view my avatar it does show a location, but it doesn't for you. I'm going to try and look into it later.


----------



## BEE J

Alright. You should see it now. I changed some things in my settings.


----------



## jtgoral

BEE J said:


> Alright. You should see it now. I changed some things in my settings.


It works for me with your new settings


----------



## BEE J

jtgoral said:


> It works for me with your new settings


YES! But if you go into my profile is it still private now? Like can you see in the *about *section:

*Interests
Permaculture: Natural Beekeeping*

If not, that means it worked!!!


----------



## jtgoral

BEE J said:


> YES! But if you go into my profile is it still private now? Like can you see in the *about *section:
> 
> *Interests
> Permaculture: Natural Beekeeping*
> 
> If not, that means it worked!!!


----------



## BEE J

jtgoral said:


> View attachment 68780


YES!!! Thanks for helping me, man!


----------



## BEE J

I think thing are all set right now, but I just needed some volunteers to help me check one last time. I posted a thread on it. Sorry to put you to all this trouble jtgoral.


----------



## drummerboy

There you are!!

"I can see clearly now, the rain is gone" - Jimmy Cliff

There are pros and cons to any method of obtaining bees. imho; Packages are perhaps the easiest, but 'feeding' is crucial and often leads to failure if not taken care of, Swarms next imo. NUC's often come with someones else's problems and are the easiest to capitalize on by the seller. 

So-called 'local' or 'over-wintered' NUC's are often just the opposite. I keep hearing more and more about NUC's being advertised as 'over-wintered' when the fact is they are made up on the spot as the 'orders' come in. When purchasing NUC'S it really pays to 'know' the beekeeper who put them together, as they are the only ones who can relay the actual history, such as 'treatments' received or not, mite levels, queen age, etc....

Go ahead, ask me how I know this is true....and that its becoming an increasing problem.


----------



## BEE J

drummerboy said:


> There you are!!
> 
> "I can see clearly now, the rain is gone" - Jimmy Cliff
> 
> There are pros and cons to any method of obtaining bees. imho; Packages are perhaps the easiest, but 'feeding' is crucial and often leads to failure if not taken care of, Swarms next imo. NUC's often come with someones else's problems and are the easiest to capitalize on by the seller.
> 
> So-called 'local' or 'over-wintered' NUC's are often just the opposite. I keep hearing more and more about NUC's being advertised as 'over-wintered' when the fact is they are made up on the spot as the 'orders' come in. When purchasing NUC'S it really pays to 'know' the beekeeper who put them together, as they are the only ones who can relay the actual history, such as 'treatments' received or not, mite levels, queen age, etc....
> 
> Go ahead, ask me how I know this is true....and that its becoming an increasing problem.


Thanks drummer! I didn't realize that kind of cheating was going on in selling nucs. Just yesterday 10+ scout bees showed up at 3 different swarm traps!!!! I was so excited!!!! I'm hoping that one of them will get chosen by a hive. This afternoon all the surge in activity has stopped, though. There was still activity this morning on at least some of them. I wonder if it's the weather. It's 80-90 degrees and breezy. I more start showing up again tommorow! If a swarm does show up it will save me $200. Thanks for the advice!


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> But what if I miss my chance to get a nuc or package? I don't want to miss out on a whole year.


@BEE J:

If you know a local beek, you can get him to start some nucs for you- then if your traps are successful the worst thing you have to worry about is getting more gear. If the traps don't pan out, you can fall back to the nucs. Just a suggestion...

I do know that Mann Lake is offering the Russian Honey Bee Breeders stock- if they still have some available, this might be an intriguing option to try, particularly if you are inclined to try your hand at treatment-free.


----------



## Litsinger

It's blustery and warm down here in the hot corner of Kentucky- and the colonies are exploding.

My day job is also off-the-chain, so I have precious little time to spend in the bee yard.

I've hived four swarms thus far, and there is currently a swarm from 2011 bivouacked about 40 feet up. Per the Broodminder, you can see when they left- and the scale suggests it is about 7# worth.

#2001 swarmed yesterday and I had the good fortune to do my best @beemandan imitation.

While preparing to hive the swarm, I met a slithering friend both coming and going. We both agreed it was best to keep our distance.

Also saw that the Green Dragon is really taking off.


----------



## AR1

What kind of snake?


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> What kind of snake?







__





Copperhead (Agkistrodon contortrix) | Kentucky Snake Identification







kysnakes.ca.uky.edu


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Copperhead (Agkistrodon contortrix) | Kentucky Snake Identification
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kysnakes.ca.uky.edu


I saw the wedge head so assumed some sort of viper. None of that around here.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> None of that around here.


I've read that copperheads and their cousins the water moccasin were displaced by the last glacial event and have never returned Northward.


----------



## AR1

Miniature rattlers north of us, so no idea why none here.


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> @BEE J:
> 
> If you know a local beek, you can get him to start some nucs for you- then if your traps are successful the worst thing you have to worry about is getting more gear. If the traps don't pan out, you can fall back to the nucs. Just a suggestion...
> 
> I do know that Mann Lake is offering the Russian Honey Bee Breeders stock- if they still have some available, this might be an intriguing option to try, particularly if you are inclined to try your hand at treatment-free.


Thanks for the advice!


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> It's blustery and warm down here in the hot corner of Kentucky- and the colonies are exploding.
> 
> My day job is also off-the-chain, so I have precious little time to spend in the bee yard.
> 
> I've hived four swarms thus far, and there is currently a swarm from 2011 bivouacked about 40 feet up. Per the Broodminder, you can see when they left- and the scale suggests it is about 7# worth.
> 
> #2001 swarmed yesterday and I had the good fortune to do my best @beemandan imitation.
> 
> While preparing to hive the swarm, I met a slithering friend both coming and going. We both agreed it was best to keep our distance.
> 
> Also saw that the Green Dragon is really taking off.


Great stuff! How hard do you think it really is to catch a swarm? I like the beemandan imitation!


----------



## BEE J

We got copperheads, water moccasins, and I've even heard rumors of rattle snakes. My friend was bitten by a moccasin on the heal. If your bitten by one the best thing to do is crush and apply some plantain leaves to the bite, while also eating some. 

Narrow leaf plantain: Narrow-leaf Plantain - Plantago lanceolata | North Carolina Extension Gardener Plant Toolbox
Broad leaf plantain: Broadleaf Plantain | Purdue University Turfgrass Science at Purdue University

The plantain works to draw out the toxin from the body. It's a safe herb that has been used for, who knows how long, to treat insect bites, stings, etc. .


----------



## Tigger19687

Wow ths thread has really gotten off topic. BeeJ, maybe you can make your own thread to ask questions as this thread is about treatment free


----------



## BEE J

Tigger19687 said:


> Wow ths thread has really gotten off topic. BeeJ, maybe you can make your own thread to ask questions as this thread is about treatment free


That's what seems to happen. 😁 I start a thread and it just goes off on a rabbit trail. Ooops, forgot about the title of the thread.


----------



## drummerboy

"C, mon my friends, it has 122 pages after all.....


----------



## BEE J

drummerboy said:


> "C, mon my friends, it has 122 pages after all.....


Let's go to 1000! Just kidding. Let's just turn it into a book😄!


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> How hard do you think it really is to catch a swarm?


I like your energy and inquisitive nature- and as you've likely already observed I do go 'off-road' on my own thread from time-to-time (talking about snakes as prima facie evidence).

That said, I do try to keep this thread focus loosely tied to both my own experiences with attempting to keep bees treatment-free and of recent scholarship of interest in the realm of treatment-free.

My own experience here on Beesource has found that the forum generally works best when the dialogue remains pointed in the approximate direction of the subject at-hand.

Thus, your questions about swarm trapping are good, but probably better directed to the Swarms, Trap-outs, and Cut-outs Sub-forum.

And questions about account settings, etc. probably should go in the Forum Feedback & Site News Sub-forum.

You are always welcome to post on this thread- just offering the encouragement that you will likely get better results by asking your questions in the appropriate section of the forum.

Keep adding to your knowledge base- it will make you better equipped to succeed no matter what focus areas you ultimately settle-on in beekeeping.

Also, I encourage you to employ the 'Search' function at the top of any page you visit on Beesource- you will find that the forum is a veritable treasure-trove of good information, and many of the questions you are asking have already been answered many times over by folks a lot smarter and more experienced than I am.

Welcome to the forum- I will look forward to reading about how your beekeeping progresses.

Yours sincerely,

Russ


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> I like your energy and inquisitive nature- and as you've likely already observed I do go 'off-road' on my own thread from time-to-time (talking about snakes as prima facie evidence).


That makes me feel better. Thank you! 


Litsinger said:


> That said, I do try to keep this thread focus loosely tied to both my own experiences with attempting to keep bees treatment-free and of recent scholarship of interest in the realm of treatment-free.


I'm interested in TF too!


Litsinger said:


> My own experience here on Beesource has found that the forum generally works best when the dialogue remains pointed in the approximate direction of the subject at-hand.


Sorry for taking your thread far off subject.



Litsinger said:


> Thus, your questions about swarm trapping are good, but probably better directed to the Swarms, Trap-outs, and Cut-outs Sub-forum.
> 
> And questions about account settings, etc. probably should go in the Forum Feedback & Site News Sub-forum.
> 
> You are always welcome to post on this thread- just offering the encouragement that you will likely get better results by asking your questions in the appropriate section of the forum.


I understand. I'm still learning the proper manners and guidelines on this forum. Thanks for telling me.


Litsinger said:


> Keep adding to your knowledge base- it will make you better equipped to succeed no matter what focus areas you ultimately settle-on in beekeeping.
> 
> Also, I encourage you to employ the 'Search' function at the top of any page you visit on Beesource- you will find that the forum is a veritable treasure-trove of good information, and many of the questions you are asking have already been answered many times over by folks a lot smarter and more experienced than I am.
> 
> Welcome to the forum- I will look forward to reading about how your beekeeping progresses.
> 
> Yours sincerely,
> 
> Russ


Thanks for your post! You've kindly given me some good pointers. I would like to hear how your season is going too! 

Thanks Litsinger, BEEJ


----------



## AR1

BEE J said:


> I'm interested in TF too!


Me too, and I did it for few years, with so-so results. Currently working on oxalic acid treatments and no conclusions. It's hard to know if the bees dies because of mites, some other reason, or I am just a cruddy beekeeper. Some of all of it.

If your location is fairly isolated from other beekeepers, I'd say give it a try. Otherwise it may not be a viable option.


----------



## BEE J

AR1 said:


> Me too, and I did it for few years, with so-so results. Currently working on oxalic acid treatments and no conclusions. It's hard to know if the bees dies because of mites, some other reason, or I am just a cruddy beekeeper. Some of all of it.
> 
> If your location is fairly isolated from other beekeepers, I'd say give it a try. Otherwise it may not be a viable option.


I have beekeepers within probably 3-5 miles or less. But I'm going to give it a shot! Any advice would be much appreciated!


----------



## drummerboy

Lots of TF advise on this site....check out the archives. It contains the good, the bad and the ugly....


----------



## BEE J

drummerboy said:


> It contains the good, the bad and the ugly....


Good to have a wide range of opinions and experiences, sometimes.


----------



## drummerboy

The more I learn, the less I know....


----------



## BEE J

drummerboy said:


> The more I learn, the less I know....


Who was it who said something like that?

*“The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.”*

― Albert Einstein


----------



## BEE J

That's an interesting one.


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> Who was it who said something like that?





Litsinger said:


> ... the Socratic Paradox...


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> ... there is currently a swarm from 2011 bivouacked about 40 feet up.


Today they decided to take up residence in one of my swarm traps and I had the rare fortune of being around for the move-in:









Inbound Swarm (04.27.22)







youtube.com





This, along with another hived swarm today gets me back to parity with my high-water hive count last year.

We're still having periodic lows in the 30's but this weekend appears to afford both the weather and the time to finally get supers on- I am WAY behind....


----------



## BEE J

Congratulations! You got to see it to! Wow that swarm trap is pretty low to the ground. Do you have other successes hanging from that height?


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Today they decided to take up residence in one of my swarm traps and I had the rare fortune of being around for the move-in:


always fun to watch

good you are back to parity, may take me longer 

GG


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> Do you have other successes hanging from that height?


@BEE J:

Good question- while I don't know all the calculus that goes into bees deciding where to call home, I _think_ the most critical components based on my own experiences are:

1. Trap in the shade- I have never had success with traps located in full sun (all other things being relatively equal). This may only apply in more Southern latitudes.

2. Brood comb- Almost a necessity. While I did catch two swarms my first year back in beekeeping without it, there is no doubt that old brood comb is about the best thing going for attracting swarms.

3. Used equipment- While maybe not quite as important as (2), I think the combination of shade, old brood comb and that 'lived-in smell' seems to be the winning combination.

4. Opening size and orientation- I do think the colonies seem to prefer cavities with relatively smaller openings that face East or Southeast.

5. Attractants- I think QMP and Lemongrass oil (in small amounts) help, but I would put them more in the 'helpful' category.

6. Entrance height- While I think it is way down the list, I believe that if given the option between two relatively equal set-ups, the swarms will generally select the trap that has the higher relative entrance height. This is not to say that it has to be significantly elevated, but anecdotally my swarm traps which are 3 - 5 feet or more off the ground are always occupied before similar traps at hive stand height are.

Based on what you wrote on another thread, it sounds like you had a swarm in the neighborhood. I would not yet give them up for lost just yet as my experience has suggested that some swarms move several times, sometimes for no apparent reason before settling on their new home. I have even seen swarms that move from one location to another location which is closer to their ultimate home site, which makes me wonder if sometimes they don't triangulate on locations at times by moving closer to prospective targets for a detailed look.

Hopefully you are able to catch a swarm this season. One thing is certain- once you catch one, you'll be hooked. I could easily stop swarm chasing by now, but it is just too much fun!


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I _think_ the most critical components based on my own experiences are:


I swear, Russ, I thought you wrote someplace that your Warre stacks are the first ones to be taken by the swarms.
Could not find it again.
Can you confirm the same?
Thanks!


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> Good question- while I don't know all the calculus that goes into bees deciding where to call home, I _think_ the most critical components based on my own experiences are:
> 
> 1. Trap in the shade- I have never had success with traps located in full sun (all other things being relatively equal). This may only apply in more Southern latitudes.
> 
> 2. Brood comb- Almost a necessity. While I did catch two swarms my first year back in beekeeping without it, there is no doubt that old brood comb is about the best thing going for attracting swarms.
> 
> 3. Used equipment- While maybe not quite as important as (2), I think the combination of shade, old brood comb and that 'lived-in smell' seems to be the winning combination.
> 
> 4. Opening size and orientation- I do think the colonies seem to prefer cavities with relatively smaller openings that face East or Southeast.
> 
> 5. Attractants- I think QMP and Lemongrass oil (in small amounts) help, but I would put them more in the 'helpful' category.
> 
> 6. Entrance height- While I think it is way down the list, I believe that if given the option between two relatively equal set-ups, the swarms will generally select the trap that has the higher relative entrance height. This is not to say that it has to be significantly elevated, but anecdotally my swarm traps which are 3 - 5 feet or more off the ground are always occupied before similar traps at hive stand height are.


I wanted to start by telling you that this reply was very helpful and meaningful to me. Thanks for taking the time to walk me through things like these!  

I think I'm pretty much good enough on 1., 
No on 2 (But there was a small bit of old wax at the top of some frames),
Yes for 3 (these are old used boxes that were wax moth infested)
Yes and no for 4, I did sort of orient two of them south Ish and one south-east: on some I'm not sure I limited the entrance enough.
Yes for 5. I used lemongrass 
Yes for 6. The lowest one is at least 4-5 feet off the ground.



Litsinger said:


> Based on what you wrote on another friend


Did you mean thread? Or what I wrote to another friend? Thanks!


Litsinger said:


> it sounds like you had a swarm in the neighborhood.


YES, YES! We did. I was so disappointed though when it didn't stop here.


Litsinger said:


> I would not yet give them up for lost just yet as my experience has suggested that some swarms move several times, sometimes for no apparent reason before settling on their new home. I have even seen swarms that move from one location to another location which is closer to their ultimate home site, which makes me wonder if sometimes they don't triangulate on locations at times by moving closer to prospective targets for a detailed look.


Thanks for the encouragement!  Guess what? Last evening, when I checked my traps one of the had surged with activity! There were 10-15+ bees excitedly checking the place out! Your theory about the bees moving several times before settling, may be right! There could also be another swarm pending somewhere though. It's giving me a lot of hope though! It would mean a lot to me to catch a swarm. Not only would I save $200, but it seems like a cool story to tell your grandkids one day about how Papa started his first bees. 😁I've also never had my own bees and I am itching to just get started with those beautiful creatures.


Litsinger said:


> Hopefully you are able to catch a swarm this season. One thing is certain- once you catch one, you'll be hooked. I could easily stop swarm chasing by now, but it is just too much fun!


Everybody says that, I heard one guy put 40 traps up!😁
Thanks, my good neighbor for all your informative posts! I hope your swarms are doing great!!!

Best Regards, BEEJ🐝🐝🐝


----------



## AR1

BEE J said:


> Everybody says that, I heard one guy put 40 traps up!😁
> 
> 
> Best Regards, BEEJ🐝🐝🐝


If you are just a bit technological, some people put cameras watching their traps and can check in on them any time. Watching a swarm build and move in is pretty cool. I had a trap on my front porch catch a swarm a few years ago, I got to see most of the action first hand.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> I swear, Russ, I thought you wrote someplace that your Warre stacks are the first ones to be taken by the swarms.
> Could not find it again.
> Can you confirm the same?
> Thanks!


Found it.


> When I put out swarm traps, *the homemade Warre boxes built out of 2X stock and stacked two tall are always the first to be occupied.*











Deep to Medium Brood Frames


Deferring perspectives are like that. Best advise I've ever taken; "Stop expecting you from other people" Good Luck with your bees!




www.beesource.com


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> Did you mean thread? Or what I wrote to another friend? Thanks!





GregB said:


> Found it.


Guys:

My apologies on the delay- it has been CRAZY at work and in the bee yard, and I have had precious little time to check-in here. What have I missed?

@BEE J - you're right, I had a typo in there- how's your swarm trapping going?

@GregB - you are also right- the Warre set-ups have always gotten the first action. Ironically I didn't get to test that theory again this year as the Warre colonies had 100% survival. While I am kind of whetted to 8-frame Langstroth equipment now, if I were starting over with what I know now I might be inclined to standardize around a Warre-styled box with frames.


----------



## Litsinger

It's been a busy couple of weeks in the bee yard. The flow has started around here, with clover and blackberry just getting started in earnest. The girls are working both sporadically here at home and there is frenetic activity at all colonies.

I finally had the chance to get into all the Langstroth colonies and in general, everything looks great- the top box on almost every colony is now heavy with nectar and the bees are moving down. I am late, however in adding space and am paying for it with bees in the trees.

To-date I have observed twenty (20) swarms in the home yard. Thankfully, I have been able to successfully hive sixteen (16) of them, though one (1) subsequently absconded because I rolled the dice and tried to install a biggish swarm in a smallish box. Lesson learned.

Some of the retrievals have been a little unconventional- one in particular was a cast swarm where the virgin queen would not stay in the receptacle no matter how I tried- she kept coming back to the branch. So I cut off the branch and took it with me - problem solved.

Also, I learned a little trick (which might be old news to you all). Often when scooping-up swarms above my head it is difficult to get all the bees in the first shot- I usually end up making two or three trips to the bivouac site to remove bees by a combination of persistence and brute force. I learned that if you have the queen in your receptacle, if you'll give the cluster a bit of time they will come to realize that the queen is no longer in the cluster and they will begin searching for her. So now I just get the bulk of the swarm in the bucket, secure the bucket in the vicinity of the swarm and then wait patiently until all the bees dutifully migrate down to the bucket- much better.

I currently have hived in the yard eleven (11) 8-frame colonies, three (3) nucleus colonies, and one (1) swarm trap styled after a Comfort Hive for a neighbor of mine. This puts my unofficial hive count at forty-seven (47) at present.

Had an odd finding in a struggling colony (#2118). I found capped brood and evidence of queen cells that had been chewed-down from the side, which I would normally attribute to a resident queen. But, there was not an egg to be found. So I chalked them up as queenless and dumped a big swarm down over the top of them - problem solved.

Next steps planned will be to check the strong colonies that were laying down new wax in the next two weeks to see if they need more room. Based on my experience from last year I've made some management tweaks that I will outline in a subsequent post.

Best of success to everyone as the season heats up.

Russ


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Had an odd finding in a struggling colony (#2118). I found capped brood and evidence of queen cells that had been chewed-down from the side, which I would normally attribute to a resident queen. But, there was not an egg to be found. So I chalked them up as queenless and dumped a big swarm down over the top of them - problem solved.


LOL you are starting to think "fix" in any and all fashions.
true keeper thinking.

GG


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> and dumped a big swarm down over the top of them - problem solved.


Here you go.
No futzing about - who has the time! LOL


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Russ, I figured I'd throw this here as it may be more relevant than any post I have going. 

So I dissected this drone brood yesterday (pic below), which was roughly 350 drones. Found 2 mites and a piece of mite poop. 

This was the colony I split from my brother's bees (known verified mites) last July. I placed a Russian queen in them and took no other measures. In Oct, I was consolidating and didn't see the queen so I dropped a single frame of bees with another Russian queen (both raised here) and decided they could work it out. 

This colony overwintered in a 6 over 6-deep-frame Lyson poly nuc. I took my first round of grafts from her as they were among the 3 top colonies early-on. At some point I added another 6 frame box on top and split them yesterday as well as taking ~1.5lbs of nurses for a cube mating nuc. They would have swarmed in another 1-2 weeks had I not weakened their numbers.

So I realize that early May is probably not the time you would see a ton of mites, but after an 20-30 minutes of digging out drone pupae (a few were emerging) and going over them carefully, all I could think was I'm knowingly destroying genetic material from bees I know to keep mite counts low. Admittedly, there is value in knowing what you have and she can make a ton of drones if enticed to do so, so not a lot truly lost. Also planned to use her for grafts and don't necessarily want a ton of the brothers out in the mating area. 

Just wondering at what point to check again, and what point you can pull 2 mites from 350 capped drone cells and call it a success? The frames of brood that started this endeavor came from a TF colony that I confirmed the existence of mites in 10 months ago.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> LOL you are starting to think "fix" in any and all fashions.
> true keeper thinking.





GregB said:


> Here you go.
> No futzing about - who has the time! LOL


Thanks for the feedback, guys. In truth it is true beeHAVER thinking when you do what you can with what little time you have. That said, I do take solace in Edmund Burke's admonition that, _'Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little.'_


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Just wondering at what point to check again, and what point you can pull 2 mites from 350 capped drone cells and call it a success? The frames of brood that started this endeavor came from a TF colony that I confirmed the existence of mites in 10 months ago.


Cool post, Joe. Sounds like a worthwhile experiment to me. While I can only speak about my own experiences with any authority, it seems around here that I can pretty well tell the 'tale of the tape' by the Summer Solstice. At least here, a colony with mite drops much north of 30 in a 24 hour period at the start of summer is better than even odds to fail in the winter. 

I don't know what the direct correlation of mite drop to drone infested cells would be, but knowing that mites preferentially invade drone brood, I would say a low assay in your drone cells would suggest low infestation overall.

It would be interesting to see how the same assay might turn out a month-and-a-half from now...

Do keep us posted! And best of success to you in your propagation efforts.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> It would be interesting to see how the same assay might turn out a month-and-a-half from now...


I’ll likely keep an eye on these, although I think we’ve concluded that a low-mite hive in isolation does not mean a low-mite hive in other settings. But it’s better than nothing.


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> how's your swarm trapping going?


One of them has a lot of bees at it! I that either a swarm is in there or they are coming soon, because when I checked it this morning there were at least 25-50+ bees (I couldn't get a good look inside)!!! 😮 😮 😮 🥳🥳🥳

How do you tell if there's a swarm in your trap? 

If there already in there then, moving them to their permanent home will be more of a challenge. I will have to use the "branch trick" at the entrance of the hive and collect the bees that go back to the old location.

I also have a question about crimp wired foundation. When I installed it in my frames it didn't sit perfectly flat, instead it bowed. 
Will the bees be okay with this?

I'm glad to hear things are cranking at your apiary!!! Wish you a good week!

Thanks, BEEJ


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> How do you tell if there's a swarm in your trap?


@BEE J: Sounds exciting! The most straightforward way I know to tell that a swarm has taken up residence is to look for foragers returning with full pollen baskets- if it is a secondary swarm and/or the box had little to no drawn comb it can sometimes take a week or more to see significant inbound pollen, at least in my experience.



BEE J said:


> Will the bees be okay with this?


So long as it is not so bowed that it ends up violating 'bee space' related to the adjacent frame, the bees will make it work. I suppose the loaded question is why did it end up bowed when you installed it? I assume the foundation was prewired and had hooks at one end? It should create a fairly straight plane. The only time I have had trouble is if I don't adequately clean out the kerf when removing the cleat. Something to think about for the future.


----------



## Gray Goose

joebeewhisperer said:


> Russ, I figured I'd throw this here as it may be more relevant than any post I have going.
> 
> So I dissected this drone brood yesterday (pic below), which was roughly 350 drones. Found 2 mites and a piece of mite poop.
> 
> This was the colony I split from my brother's bees (known verified mites) last July. I placed a Russian queen in them and took no other measures. In Oct, I was consolidating and didn't see the queen so I dropped a single frame of bees with another Russian queen (both raised here) and decided they could work it out.
> 
> This colony overwintered in a 6 over 6-deep-frame Lyson poly nuc. I took my first round of grafts from her as they were among the 3 top colonies early-on. At some point I added another 6 frame box on top and split them yesterday as well as taking ~1.5lbs of nurses for a cube mating nuc. They would have swarmed in another 1-2 weeks had I not weakened their numbers.
> 
> So I realize that early May is probably not the time you would see a ton of mites, but after an 20-30 minutes of digging out drone pupae (a few were emerging) and going over them carefully, all I could think was I'm knowingly destroying genetic material from bees I know to keep mite counts low. Admittedly, there is value in knowing what you have and she can make a ton of drones if enticed to do so, so not a lot truly lost. Also planned to use her for grafts and don't necessarily want a ton of the brothers out in the mating area.
> 
> Just wondering at what point to check again, and what point you can pull 2 mites from 350 capped drone cells and call it a success? The frames of brood that started this endeavor came from a TF colony that I confirmed the existence of mites in 10 months ago.
> 
> View attachment 69031
> 
> View attachment 69032


Joe
a very valid and good test. one should know if this is to be a grafting mother what the drone / mite counts actually are.
I would put in another Medium frame and do a check in 6 weeks, and try to do the same 350, and compare, same,, 4 times as many etc.

they must be doing something to keep the mites in check.

GG


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> @BEE J: Sounds exciting!


YES!!!😀😀😀😀I think it's also because this is my first hive. I can't wait to start my beekeeping journey! And it looks like I won't have to. This morning I went out very early to the swarm trap (around 5:30-6:00m.) and observed it. The two medium Langs were humming I looked in the entrance with my light and saw at least two dozen bees, but there were probably a lot more above the entrance. When I started messing with them like this some started flying out of the hive. 

Wouldn't a lot of bees spending the night in the trap alone indicate a swarm?




Litsinger said:


> So long as it is not so bowed that it ends up violating 'bee space' related to the adjacent frame, the bees will make it work.


I checked it again and it wasn't as bad as I thought. It's more of a gentle wave. lt definitely doesn't bow outside the width of the frame. I just wanted to make sure the bees would accept a little wavy foundation, because if not I need to quickly redo it. 



Litsinger said:


> I suppose the loaded question is why did it end up bowed when you installed it?


I think it was because I wired my deep frames with all 4 wires, and then weaved the foundation through these 4 wires.



Litsinger said:


> I assume the foundation was prewired and had hooks at one end?


Yes sir, I got: Wired Foundation with Hooks for Deep Wedge Top/Groove Bottom Frames from Mann Lake. 



Litsinger said:


> Something to think about for the future.


Definitely, my hope is to learn from my mistakes and correct them next season!


----------



## Tigger19687

@BEE J 
I suggest you start your own thread about your hive/trap/bee life.
This thread is getting off the topic of Litsingers chronicle, which is why I subscribed to this thread.
I'm not saying there is bad info here but it's getting a bit monotonous.

Thank you Litsinger for your thread, it has enlightened many.


----------



## BEE J

Tigger19687 said:


> @BEE J
> I suggest you start your own thread about your hive/trap/bee life.
> This thread is getting off the topic of Litsingers chronicle, which is why I subscribed to this thread.
> I'm not saying there is bad info here but it's getting a bit monotonous.


Sorry about that. I was thinking about starting a thread for my journey in beekeeping.


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> Wouldn't a lot of bees spending the night in the trap alone indicate a swarm?


@BEE J:

While bees spending the night at a trap is a good sign, I don't believe it is proof-positive of a swarm in residence. Attached is a good series of articles from the April/May ABJ by Dr. Dewey M. Caron describing swarming behavior and also a fairly detailed treatment of various swarm management techniques - well worth the read IMHO.


----------



## Litsinger

Tigger19687 said:


> I suggest you start your own thread about your hive/trap/bee life.


I second this sentiment- I always enjoy reading the chronicles others have here on Beesource. Go for it!



Tigger19687 said:


> Thank you Litsinger for your thread, it has enlightened many.


Thanks for the encouragement- glad it is of some help! Feel welcome to offer feedback anytime.

On the home front, we are having one of the best locust blooms in years, with the clover and blackberry also simultaneously blooming. If the tulip poplar gets going good this year too, we might be in for a banner flow.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> On the home front, we are having one of the best locust blooms in years, with the clover and blackberry also blooming


We are a month or more behind.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> We are a month or more behind.


Maybe something to look forward to!


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> @BEE J:
> 
> While bees spending the night at a trap is a good sign, I don't believe it is proof-positive of a swarm in residence. Attached is a good series of articles from the April/May ABJ by Dr. Dewey M. Caron describing swarming behavior and also a fairly detailed treatment of various swarm management techniques - well worth the read IMHO.


Thanks for the info! I also just wanted to let you know that there was a swarm in the trap!!!! 🥳🥳🥳 We installed them yesterday at night.


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> Thanks for the info! I also just wanted to let you know that there was a swarm in the trap!!!! 🥳🥳🥳 We installed them yesterday at night.


Way to go, @BEE J! You're in the bee business now...

I will only caution- 'Bee Fever' is a disease for which there is no cure...

Here's hoping you land another swarm or two before the season wraps-up.

Happy for you-

Russ


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> Way to go, @BEE J! You're in the bee business now...
> 
> I will only caution- 'Bee Fever' is a disease for which there is no cure...
> 
> Here's hoping you land another swarm or two before the season wraps-up.
> 
> Happy for you-
> 
> Russ


Thanks! Everybody I see says it is addicting. 

If you don't mind me asking this on your thread how did you pin your "Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?".
I want to find to start a personal experience thread. 

How many swarms have you caught this year? Were they all yours?

Have a great season!!!

BEEJ


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> If you don't mind me asking this on your thread how did you pin your "Treatment-Free Bungling 2018 - ?".
> I want to find to start a personal experience thread.
> 
> How many swarms have you caught this year? Were they all yours?


@BEE J:

Thank you for your message- I believe the decision for a thread to become 'pinned' is a decision by the thread moderator. Once you start your thread, the moderators might elect to pin it.

To-date I have successfully hived twenty swarms. A good many of them have come from my own colonies, but a few have moved in from the neighborhood.

It has been a great start to bee season here in Western Kentucky, and I sincerely hope the same for you.

Have a great week.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Based on my experience from last year I've made some management tweaks that I will outline in a subsequent post.


It has been a bang-up start to the season down here- the weather has remained mild and the blooms have been better than we've had in recent years.

As of today, the hive count stands at fifty-two (52), with an even twenty (20) swarms hived to-date. There are not many prime swarms left, but a good many cast swarms emerging, and the swarms have generally been bigger than average. It seems that conditions are especially good this year for the bees, and they are responding.

After some reflection this past winter relative to the results of the first four seasons of beekeeping in a TF context and a recognition of my limited time available to devote to colony management, I've elected to make some minor changes to the apiary approach and ultimate business focus.

To briefly summarize, I am in the fifth year of a TF experiment in Western Kentucky. My locale is in Climate Zone 7a and it is relatively sparsely populated.

At this point, I am the largest beekeeper in the flight range of my apiary by a wide margin- as such, it is safe to say that the drones from my apiary serve as a 'genetic firewall' of sorts relative to the minimal imports my neighbors might be bringing in year-over-year.

I have generally standardized around 8-frame Langstroth equipment with unlimited broodnest, but I do have a few 10-frame Langstroth colonies along with over a half-dozen Warre colonies that I inherited from a friend.

My 4-year survival average is approximately 80% and I have little reason to expect that will change this season.

Beyond the relative success I have had in a TF context, the other overarching observation I have made is that this local population is mite-resistant but not mite-proof. Their ability to control mite population growth is a multi-factorial equation which is a combination of their internal mechanisms and my management approach.

In specific, I have observed that when I successfully forestall swarming and also manage the colonies for maximum productivity (i.e. large population), they inevitably suffer from unacceptably high mite population growth.

So while it is not revelatory, I have refined my general approach as follows in response to what I have learned to-date:

1. Focus on maintaining more colonies producing less surplus- this season I am targeting having between 40 - 80# of surplus from each overwintered hive and not necessarily managing the colonies for maximum production- particularly those which are willing to grow to epic proportions.

2. Not be so concerned about swarming- while I continue to do what I can to forestall swarming, I am beginning to see this process more as an ally and less an enemy, particularly in my relatively rural environment and my ability to ultimately rehome most of these swarms. Beyond this, I see my yard as effectively an extension of the local population, so if I lose a half-dozen swarms back to nature each year, this seems like a reasonable price to pay for such a good resource.

3. Redouble my efforts at systematic comb renewal- More specifically, I am evaluating better means to make nadiring work in my operation to allow me to continually move boxes up and out over time. After less than stellar results in past years, I find myself having better success with a combination of: no upper entrances, 'lived-in' boxes, and some drawn comb in the bottom box as a means to coax the colonies to occupy the bottom box.

In a follow-up post all outline some thoughts I have about how to utilize the above approach in a manner that offers market opportunities.

Finally, I had the opportunity to try-out my new wax melter- pretty fun...


----------



## AR1

Sounds very nice. I am somewhat envious!
Regarding wild swarms, do you know the locations of bee trees?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> My* 4-year survival average is approximately 80%* and I have little reason to expect that will change this season.


Russ,
Good deal.
Thanks for consistent per-annual reporting. 
I think I will start referring people to your BS blog as a credible reference/TF case study - it has been long enough.
G.


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> My 4-year survival average is approximately 80% and I have little reason to expect that will change this season.


Math check: Do you average the averages? ie, 100% + 33.3% /2 = 66.6% or add all the yearly totals and average that?


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> ... add all the yearly totals and average that?


This.


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> @BEE J:
> 
> Thank you for your message- I believe the decision for a thread to become 'pinned' is a decision by the thread moderator. Once you start your thread, the moderators might elect to pin it.
> 
> To-date I have successfully hived twenty swarms. A good many of them have come from my own colonies, but a few have moved in from the neighborhood.
> 
> It has been a great start to bee season here in Western Kentucky, and I sincerely hope the same for you.
> 
> Have a great week.
> 
> Russ


Thank you for helping me.  I understand now. I started a thread: "BEEJ's Beekeeping Journey" to record and discuss my experiences.
WOW! 20 swarms. How do you do it? I am so happy for you and glad your season is a good one! Another member several hours north of me said it was a good year, so I hope between you to the west of me and him to the north my area will be doing good this year. I know that the climate can vary a lot over a short distance, though.

I am doing treatment- free beekeeping for now, so with your great studies, Greg's, mine, etc. it will interesting to see the finds in these different areas.

I'm really glad that your season is going great and hope that the rest is the same!

Keep Buzzing, BEEJ


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> This.


Ah, so (7 + 4) / (7 + 12) = .578 or 57.8% overall. Not as good as 66.6% :-(

Since this is the TF forum,
(6 + 4) / (6 + 11) = .588 or 58.8% Odd it went up a point... Thermal treated hives are 100%.

Need to update my thread!


----------



## Litsinger

Gents:

Thank you for your replies- I do appreciate it!

I also apologize for my delay in reply- both my day job and work in the bee yard has left me with little time to spare.



AR1 said:


> Regarding wild swarms, do you know the locations of bee trees?


@AR1: I am not aware of any bee trees in my immediate vicinity, but my next door neighbor has bees living in the wall cavity above his bathroom window. That said, I am not convinced that feral bees are typically very conspicuous. I am reminded of this:


Litsinger said:


> I saw this trap-out in progress today and thought of your recent post about the bees in your barn. This colony is set-up in a tree less than 100 feet from the park bench where I spend most of my lunch breaks and I was never aware of their presence.





GregB said:


> Thanks for consistent per-annual reporting.


It is my pleasure, @GregB. Likewise, I appreciate your posts as well- I've learned a lot from them.



BEE J said:


> WOW! 20 swarms. How do you do it?


@BEE J: to be fair, most of these swarms are mine- and if you have a colony that overwinters well, it is difficult to keep them from swarming! In recent years, it has not been uncommon for me to have more swarms than overwintered colonies I have in the yard- so once you get the ball rolling, you might find yourself like me with almost more bees than you know what to do with!



William Bagwell said:


> Need to update my thread!


@William Bagwell: I hope you will- I look forward to read what's been going on in your operation. I like utilizing the cumulative overwintering average, as it allows me to take account of varying hive numbers year-over-year. If I simply average the percentages, I'll end up weighting the years with more colonies more heavily than the years with less. So long as I can keep up with the total, I intend to maintain a 'rolling average'.


----------



## William Bagwell

William Bagwell said:


> Since this is the TF forum,
> (6 + 4) / (6 + 11) = .588 or 58.8% Odd it went up a point... Thermal treated hives are 100%.


Math error. Should be,
(6 + 3) / (6 + 11) = .529 or 52.9% So it went down as expected when excluding treated hives.


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> So it went down as expected when excluding treated hives.


William:

Thanks for the update, and no shame in those percentages. I know many TF keepers have much steeper losses in the early years- hopefully you are able to build something with the stocks that are overwintering successfully. Have you had any multi-year survivors yet?


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> William:
> 
> Thanks for the update, and no shame in those percentages. I know many TF keepers have much steeper losses in the early years- hopefully you are able to build something with the stocks that are overwintering successfully. Have you had any multi-year survivors yet?


At least one, but when a hive swarms which side do you count? Dunwoody bees #1 on that list are still alive, no treatment 2020, single thermal 2021, likely swarmed both years. #5 (now in a lang) still TF and possibly has not swarmed. In front of the house rather than down in the bee yard so is watched pretty close. Other two survivors were 2021 caught swarms. Do not know the source hive of either, so this means I have lost my _known _Tpope genetics. 

#3 on kevinhnc's list, (the purchased queen) was told verbally is was VSH. And probably was based on 2020 mite counts which were the lowest of all I could monitor easily. Split three ways early last year, none were productive, and lost all three over winter.


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> ... but when a hive swarms which side do you count?


William: That is a great question- following luminaries before me, I understand that the resident colony remains the same relative to reporting (i.e. year-over-year survival) with the understanding that the genetics at home change a bit when it's out with the old and in with the new.



William Bagwell said:


> Split three ways early last year, none were productive, and lost all three over winter.


While I don't know much, I think there is a lot we don't know about VSH response at the colony level- not the least of which is that this activity is the combined result of different patrilines and may only be fully expressed when other colony needs (i.e. overhead storage) have already been addressed. So the more experience I gain, the more I identify with Kirk Webster's thought that successful TF beekeeping is a combination of genetics and management (to say nothing about forage quality).


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> So the more experience I gain, the more I identify with Kirk Webster's thought that successful* TF beekeeping is a combination of genetics and management (to say nothing about forage quality).*


And maybe the locational context that affords the desired genetics?


I can certainly import 5-10 queens from you.
Will they hold?
Doubt it (not without a good doze of OA).


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Will they hold?


They might, but their daughters likely not. Even then, who knows how they'd do with different mite influx dynamics- without even considering the local adaptation considerations.


----------



## Litsinger

Swarm season is wrapping-up here in Western Kentucky. No swarms today and only a handful this week. This is par for the course- here are last swarm dates for the past four (4) years:

2018- 05.09
2019- 05.19
2020- 05.20
2021- 05.26

I've had the good fortune to successfully hive twenty-five (25) swarms and the unofficial hive count stands at fifty-nine (59). The swarms have generally been bigger than average.

Yesterday, I also had the rare privilege to have a good helper with me in the beeyard. My second daughter joined me and had the chance to hive a swarm with very little help from dad. She showed a lot of poise, even after getting stung once.

I took the opportunity to inspect a recent swarm install (#2206) due to low foraging activity. As suspected, they proved to be queenless. I hope to rectify this situation this week when @Gray Goose and I go to Bloomfield, MO to pick-up some queen stock from Cory Stevens for trial. I am always impressed at how well swarms draw out comb- this colony has almost eight (8) full frames drawn out and they are just about textbook perfect.

Temperatures are routinely getting into the 90s now and bearding has begun in earnest. The picture below is from colony #1803- the oldest colony in the yard. They have built-up well, and do not appear to be in a mood to swarm this year.

Clover is being worked diligently and tulip poplar has just begun- it has been a great flow so far.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> In a follow-up post all outline some thoughts I have about how to utilize the above approach in a manner that offers market opportunities.


As alluded to, I've been considering the most viable business model for the busy hobbyist beekeeper in my specific context with the resources I have available. Assuming the wheels don't fall off this winter, I am wondering if selling full-sized overwintered colonies as the primary business focus might not be the best bet. Based on the current lay of the land, I expect I might be in a position to sell approximately twenty (20) colonies this coming spring. The model might be:

1. Stock comes from a TF apiary with a five (5) year survival average of 80%.
2. Stock is installed on a minimum of twelve (12) drawn combs.
3. Stock has overwintered a minimum of one (1) year in a mid-South climate.

While I might be disappointed, I expect I might be able to easily sell approximately twenty (20) colonies in this fashion each year at a sales price of approximately $300.

What do you all think? Is this a foolhardy idea?

I'm certainly not giving up on honey production- just recognizing that I have to process a whole lot of honey to equal the value of twenty overwintered TF colonies.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> While I might be disappointed, I expect I might be able to easily sell approximately twenty (20) colonies in this fashion each year at a sales price of approximately $300.


An attractive product at a very reasonable price. My concern would be delivery. Lots of details to work out, but not crazy. I do wonder if more, smaller hives wouldn't sell better and bring more income.


----------



## Tigger19687

What is the price of packages there ? 
If you are selling a full 12 deep frames/box/bottom board/ cover then I think you are selling cheap.
Up here I am seeing packages for $200 and nucs too.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> As alluded to, I've been considering the most viable business model for the busy hobbyist beekeeper in my specific context with the resources I have available. Assuming the wheels don't fall off this winter, I am wondering if selling full-sized overwintered colonies as the primary business focus might not be the best bet. Based on the current lay of the land, I expect I might be in a position to sell approximately twenty (20) colonies this coming spring. The model might be:
> 
> 1. Stock comes from a TF apiary with a five (5) year survival average of 80%.
> 2. Stock is installed on a minimum of twelve (12) drawn combs.
> 3. Stock has overwintered a minimum of one (1) year in a mid-South climate.
> 
> While I might be disappointed, I expect I might be able to easily sell approximately twenty (20) colonies in this fashion each year at a sales price of approximately $300.
> 
> What do you all think? Is this a foolhardy idea?
> 
> I'm certainly not giving up on honey production- just recognizing that I have to process a whole lot of honey to equal the value of twenty overwintered TF colonies.


plan sounds good .
what is the current cost of the hive, bottom, boxes, frames, lid, paint, nails etc.
how much time do you have into each "overwintered" hive?

maybe the 300 is half used or more buy the hive costs, then your business is bees + hive building, for folks.
with NUCs at 150 or more which is 5 frames as the box is disposable or returned, IMO your price is a bit lean.

consider 2 cost,, one where they bring a hive (new) and one where you supply the hive, at 2 or more, different price points.
then the 8F or 10F or something else works.

sounds like fun

GG

if inflation keeps up it may be 200 for the hive and construction in a year or 2.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> My concern would be delivery.





Tigger19687 said:


> If you are selling a full 12 deep frames/box/bottom board/ cover then I think you are selling cheap.





Gray Goose said:


> with NUCs at 150 or more which is 5 frames as the box is disposable or returned, IMO your price is a bit lean.


Good feedback, gents. I do appreciate it.

My thought was that this would be a pick-up only proposition, and pricing does not include any woodenware less the frames occupied by bees.

So the general thought would be that the buyer would bring their woodenware of choice, we would work together inspecting/installing the frames in their equipment, and then we would suitably button them up for transport to their yard.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> This is par for the course- here are last swarm dates for the past four (4) years:
> 
> 2018- 05.09
> 2019- 05.19
> 2020- 05.20
> 2021- 05.26


Wow.
Just shows how I am running 2 months behind you in the swarming cycle.
2018 - 08.19
2019 - 06.30
2020 - 07.25
2021 - 07.10

PS: granted I am holding the traps out through the entire summer - trapping style difference is there too; some later swarms reporting is due to that - but still a trend.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> While I might be disappointed, I expect I might be able to easily sell approximately twenty (20) colonies in this fashion each year at a sales price of approximately $300.
> 
> What do you all think? Is this a foolhardy idea?
> 
> I'm certainly not giving up on honey production- just recognizing that I have to process a whole lot of honey to equal the value of twenty overwintered TF colonies.


As I already indicated, the bees sales seem much more attractive to me.
The "boutique bee" at that - not your generic cheap package bees.
This MAY be a challenge to overcome, however.

I already lost a customer here to that he did NOT want to wait until June for my bees.
2-3 days ago I reminded him to bring his Layens nucs over to be populated (as we agreed).
Turns out he "forgot" of the plans.
Instead, he just jumped onto some packages before they are "sold out".
So - this is a challenge - to have people be choosing one's bees over readily available cheap genetic packages/nuckages.

*Had I had overwintered, ready-to-go nucs* - the talk could have been different.
But I don't.

For your marketing reference, @Litsinger - here is the sales list of my local TF producer for the spring 2022.

*Lloyd St. Bees*




> lloydstbees.com





> or email [email protected]
> 
> - *Overwintered 10 Frame Single Deep - $350*
> 
> o Includes a bottom board, 10 frame hive body, 1 gallon in hive pro feeder, inner/outer cover, 8 deep frames (4-6 will contain brood), marked 2021 Lloyd St. Bees queen
> 
> o Estimated pick up will be 5/14/2022 or 5/21/2022
> 
> o Preorders begin 2/1/2022 with more available after 3/5/2022.
> 
> - *Spring Nuc - $200*
> 
> o Three deep frames of brood and bees at various stages (eggs, larvae and capped)
> 
> o One frame of feed (honey, syrup, pollen)
> 
> o One miscellaneous frame (sugar frame, drawn frame, brood, feed frame or foundation)
> 
> o Marked 2022 Lloyd St. Bees queen
> 
> o Estimated pick up will be between 6/4 - 6/18/2022
> 
> o Preorders begin 2/1/2022 with more available after 3/5/2022.


----------



## BEE J

I am a huge fan of the plan. I have seen others sell double deep, established colonies for $300, but they were in the deep south, and I didn't see a survival average. I think it would be better to get a bit more money than $6000, for the year. $10,000 would be excellent for a part-time hobby, assuming it is only a part- time hobby. But then there's also the social part which can be very beneficial. I am not familiar with what colonies are going for in your area, but I would be willing to pay $350 if I wanted one (based on what your offering). 

Overall, I am a big fan of the plan, but I am also curious of your personal experience in honey production for customers.

You have my best wishes, BEEJ 🐝 🐝 🐝


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> Swarm season is wrapping-up here in Western Kentucky. No swarms today and only a handful this week. This is par for the course- here are last swarm dates for the past four (4) years:
> 
> 2018- 05.09
> 2019- 05.19
> 2020- 05.20
> 2021- 05.26
> 
> I've had the good fortune to successfully hive twenty-five (25) swarms and the unofficial hive count stands at fifty-nine (59). The swarms have generally been bigger than average.


Congratulations on the good year!!! I am to the east of you, in western Virginia, so I imagine that I only have a few extra weeks of swarm season than where you are at. 


Litsinger said:


> Yesterday, I also had the rare privilege to have a good helper with me in the beeyard. My second daughter joined me and had the chance to hive a swarm with very little help from dad. She showed a lot of poise, even after getting stung once.


That must have been a special time for Ya'll. I am a strong supporter in involving the next generation in agricultural practices (apiculture included)! How old is your daughter?

It's interesting to see the different reactions to insects (in general) among people. One of the reason's I was encouraged to start keeping bees was because I was the kid who would be okay with handling a bug.😄


Litsinger said:


> Clover is being worked diligently and tulip poplar has just begun- it has been a great flow so far.


We got those hear in VA too. Do you have a ton of wild blackberry's blooming over there in Kentucky? I'm guessing that's one of the biggest sources of nectar around here, for now.

I hope you have a great summer!

Keep Buzzing, BEEJ🐝🐝🐝


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> For your marketing reference, @Litsinger - here is the sales list of my local TF producer for the spring 2022.


@GregB: Good feedback- thank you for sending this along. He has a nice website. I noticed it does not appear that the website makes any reference to TF. Is this intentional?


BEE J said:


> Overall, I am a big fan of the plan, but I am also curious of your personal experience in honey production for customers.





BEE J said:


> I am a strong supporter in involving the next generation in agricultural practices (apiculture included)! How old is your daughter?





BEE J said:


> Do you have a ton of wild blackberry's blooming over there in Kentucky?


@BEE J: Thank you for the encouragement and feedback. I recently saw the following post on our Kentucky Beekeepers FB page- gives me some point of reference relative to non-TF stock. Last year was the first time I produced significant surplus but this is largely do to beekeeper incompetence and lack of drawn comb. The trick with TF beekeeping (at least as I see it) is trying to learn to thread the needle to allow the colonies to grow big enough to produce meaningful surplus without growing so big that the mite populations get out of hand- I am still learning on that score.









My daughter who helped me this past weekend is 11- she enjoyed the experience and is good with animals.

The blackberries are blooming here still too- ironically, with everything else blooming I have not seen the honey bees working them too hard. If only we could spread our flow out like the guys up North we could make rivers of surplus honey...


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> @GregB: Good feedback- thank you for sending this along. He has a nice website. I noticed it does not appear that the website makes any reference to TF. Is this intentional?


Trevor has been treating (OA vapor) while trying to patiently select, stabilize, test the lines (with my minor inputs!) and build up his stock.

Last winter was a TF attempt.
He still treats or cull the colonies - selectively.

Here is his 2022 report (posted on our local forum):



> Out of the total population of colonies that went into winter, *70% went into the winter without receiving any treatments during the season. Of the total population of colonies going into winter, 85% survived. To break it down further, 91% of the treated colonies survived winter and 81% of the untreated colonies survived winter.* As far as queen genetics, *I only graft from my colonies that have not been treated, survived at least one winter and have high marks using Dr. Harbo's VSH assay. *The top scoring colonies will provide the material to graft queens and collect drones that will be crossed in the lab using artificial insemination. Those artificially inseminated queen colonies are assayed and get put into the population to hopefully become breeder queens the following year.


----------



## BEE J

Litsinger said:


> I recently saw the following post on our Kentucky Beekeepers FB page- gives me some point of reference relative to non-TF stock.


Based on that post I would say your price is more reasonable than mine. I guess you can test the market by starting lower, and come up if you should. 



Litsinger said:


> The trick with TF beekeeping (at least as I see it) is trying to learn to thread the needle to allow the colonies to grow big enough to produce meaningful surplus without growing so big that the mite populations get out of hand- I am still learning on that score.


Interesting observations! I can't say much as this is my first year of TF... and beekeeping itself.



Litsinger said:


> My daughter who helped me this past weekend is 11- she enjoyed the experience and is good with animals.
> 
> The blackberries are blooming here still too- ironically, with everything else blooming I have not seen the honey bees working them too hard. If only we could spread our flow out like the guys up North we could make rivers of surplus honey...


Fantastic! I'm impressed with her capabilities at that age. I hope she follows in the footsteps of her great Dad. 


I think that there's something else blooming around here too, because they were fewer bees than I expected. Or there are just so many blooms they can't keep up with them.
I guess we'll just keep learning about are flows, trying to improve the bee's circumstances, if we can. Have you ever tried planting something (like sowing a field with a cover crop, etc.) to help fill in the dearth periods. I am just curious.

I know it takes a lot of time to keep up a thread so I don't want to take to much of your time.
Have a great flow!

Keep Buzzing, BEEJ🐝🐝🐝


----------



## AR1

BEE J said:


> I think that there's something else blooming around here too, because they were fewer bees than I expected. Or there are just so many blooms they can't keep up with them.
> I guess we'll just keep learning about are flows, trying to improve the bee's circumstances, if we can.


Bee J, I suggest you check out the 'Post Your Bloom Dates' forum for Virginia. You can see which flowers are blooming and most people actually post the county and zip codes so you can see what is close to you. It's also a great way to identify quickly which members are near you.
Post Your Swarm Dates forum is fun too.
Another useful site is pollen.com, which lists the three top pollen-producing plants each day by zip code.


----------



## BEE J

AR1 said:


> Bee J, I suggest you check out the 'Post Your Bloom Dates' forum for Virginia. You can see which flowers are blooming and most people actually post the county and zip codes so you can see what is close to you. It's also a great way to identify quickly which members are near you.
> Post Your Swarm Dates forum is fun too.
> Another useful site is pollen.com, which lists the three top pollen-producing plants each day by zip code.


Thank you for the great resources!


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Here is his 2022 report (posted on our local forum):
> 
> _As far as queen genetics, *I only graft from my colonies that have not been treated, survived at least one winter and have high marks using Dr. Harbo's VSH assay. *The top scoring colonies will provide the material to graft queens and collect drones that will be crossed in the lab using artificial insemination. Those artificially inseminated queen colonies are assayed and get put into the population to hopefully become breeder queens the following year._


Greg:

Thank you for your feedback. Good information. It sounds like he is following a good model. When @Gray Goose and I had the opportunity to talk with Mr. Cory Stevens at his place earlier this week, this is generally the approach he is taking- there's a good blip about it in the June ABJ (attached).


----------



## Litsinger

BEE J said:


> I guess we'll just keep learning about are flows, trying to improve the bee's circumstances, if we can. Have you ever tried planting something (like sowing a field with a cover crop, etc.) to help fill in the dearth periods. I am just curious.


@BEE J: From my very humble vantage point, I think you are over the target. For my part, I try to write down what dates I see certain trees/flowers blooming each year and a qualitative assessment of how actively they are being foraged upon as a means to evaluate both seasonal timing and flow intensity. Another thing that has helped is installing a 'Broodminder' on one of the colonies. While it is not perfect, it does give you some sense of daily nectar gathering and also helps you assess what blooms are actually contributing to surplus collection- this is an idea I picked up from @grozzie2.

I do have a couple acres of pollinator habitat planted on my place- but it is more for my personal enjoyment and opportunity to see hummingbirds, butterflies, etc. It is not large enough to make a dent in the bees' needs.

Keep learning from the bees- they have a lot to teach you.


----------



## Litsinger

Maybe old news to you all, but I was excited about this...

After making up a couple of nucs I found one that was a bit light on bees for my liking so I got to wondering, 'what's the laziest way I can add some live bodies'?

It was then I was reminded of a talk that Randy Oliver gave about collecting bees for a mite wash, suggesting that you shake frames of bees into an open container and everybody who stays put is a nurse bee (or the queen ).

So- now that our bees are bearding heavily around here I simply went around to a couple colonies with lots of bearding bees and brushed the bearded clusters with a gloved hand into a planting pot.

I then let all the bees that wanted to fly off go and subsequently took all the bees that stayed put and dumped them into the nuc.

They immediately started nasonoving like they would with a queenright swarm and moved right down. No fighting.

It doesn't get much easier than this...


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> 'what's the laziest way I can add some live bodies'?
> ..................
> It doesn't get much easier than this...


Why, I have been doing this routinely - stealing the bees around for my projects using these simple tools.
Shake and scoop.


BTW: when I do this, I OA dribble the transferred bees to prevent cross-infestation; back then @msl told me this is "hard on the bees" - well, it works and the bees are fine - just now remembered and reporting it here now that I have done it.


----------



## Litsinger

Things are pretty quiet down here in the hot corner of Kentucky. Swarm season is over and any new wax that is being drawn-out in the overwintered colonies is drone sized, suggesting the girls have now turned their attention to bulking-up their stores.

Like everyone else, we came through a week-and-a-half period of cool and rainy weather and on the other side of it the only significant bloom around here is clover.

Digging through a few colonies yesterday, they have definitely started to slow down brood rearing and are moving down the stack, backfilling as they go.

It has been almost two weeks since I installed three (3) virgin queens from Cory Stevens, and the project has not gone well.

One (1) nuc got robbed-out and ended up queenless- my fault.

One (1) nuc is queenright and the colony appears to be making preps for laying. 

The queenless swarm is queenright but she is a dud- one leg is immobile and the colony has begun chewing on her wings. I gave them an open frame of brood and wished them the best.

I've got all my equipment in use, so it's time to turn my attention to the orchard.

Next step in the beeyard will be to do the Summer Solstice mite drop evaluations.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Epigenetics is specifically concerned with heritable changes to gene regulation that occur in response to intercellular and extracellular environmental cues. Broadly defined, epigenetic information can take many forms, since factors at many levels can stably affect gene regulation.


Best presentation I've seen on the subject of epigenetics in honey bees recently posted on the National Honey Show's YouTube channel by Dr. Paul Hurd, Queen Mary University of London:






A few key take-aways:

1. DNA provides information about what is possible- but DNA is a script, not a transcript.

2. Epigenetics provides interpretation of the script (often in response to environment).

3. A single honey bee genome produces three different organisms (phenotypes) and at each stage of development, these organisms are different.

4. These organisms are epigenetically unique, but genetically similar.









Epigenetic patterns determine if honeybee larvae become queens or workers


Scientists have unraveled how changes in nutrition in the early development of honeybees can result in vastly different adult characteristics.



www.sciencedaily.com









__





Genome Res | Mobile






m.genome.cshlp.org


----------



## Litsinger

Decided this afternoon to look at the colony count from a different perspective- I was curious, of the fifty (50) full-sized colonies in the yard, what is their age?

2018 - 1
2019 - 6
2020 - 10
2021 - 16
2022 - 17

It will be interesting to see what effect colony age has on overall survival going forward.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> what is their age?


How do you determine the colony age?
I don't quiet get this.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> How do you determine the colony age?
> I don't quiet get this.


Was wondering that myself. Marked queens? My hives are 'immortal' as long as they don't die! One queen replaces the prior. Same hive, or a new one?
Or, continuous occupation of a hive without replacement?


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> ... continuous occupation of a hive without replacement?


This.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> This.


But since the queens change over, what is the significance?

For example:
2022 - 17 
17 years of continuous occupation of the boxes.
How many queens went through?
How many brood breaks take place?


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> But since the queens change over, what is the significance?


Cumulative mite load.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Cumulative mite load.


Wow.
2022 - 17 years - no treatment.
You had bees for so long?
I thought you restarted no too long ago. No?


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> 2022 - 17 years - no treatment.


Sorry for the confusion, Greg.

2022 is the year- 17 is the count of colonies established in the year in question.

The oldest colony in the yard was established in 2018.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> Wow.
> 2022 - 17 years - no treatment.
> You had bees for so long?
> I thought you restarted no too long ago. No?


I think you are flipping the columns. 2022=17 brand new colonies with less than one year occupation. While the 2018 hive is 4 years continuously, only one hive is 4 years old.


----------



## Tigger19687

Litsinger said:


> Decided this afternoon to look at the colony count from a different perspective- I was curious, of the fifty (50) full-sized colonies in the yard, what is their age?
> 
> 2018 - 1
> 2019 - 6
> 2020 - 10
> 2021 - 16
> 2022 - 17
> 
> It will be interesting to see what effect colony age has on overall survival going forward.


I think , correct me,. That the year listed is the year it was Made, the number after is the count of hives. So 2022 were just made.
This was the way I looked at it.


----------



## Litsinger

Tigger19687 said:


> I think , correct me,. That the year listed is the year it was Made, the number after is the count of hives. So 2022 were just made.
> This was the way I looked at it.


You are right on target, @Tigger19687.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Sorry for the confusion, Greg.
> 
> 2022 is the year- 17 is the count of colonies established in the year in question.
> 
> The oldest colony in the yard was established in 2018.


OK.

2018 - 1 started
2019 - 6 started
2020 - 10 started
2021 - 16 started
2022 - 17 started

Can you do:
2018 - X started - 1 still surviving in 2022...


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> OK.
> 
> 2018 - 1 started
> 2019 - 6 started
> 2020 - 10 started
> 2021 - 16 started
> 2022 - 17 started
> 
> Can you do:
> 2018 - X started - 1 still surviving in 2022...


It would be interesting to see how many others were in that year.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Can you do:
> 2018 - X started - 1 still surviving in 2022...


To clarify- the numbers listed are the numbers of colonies that currently survive that were started in the year in question. So for example, I could expand on 2018 to note:

Started two (2) packages - failed in the same year.
Made two (2) nucs - failed in the same year.
Caught two (2) swarms - #1803 and #1804. #1804 failed last year. 

Thus, the only colony that remains which was started in 2018 is colony #1803.

The only thing I would need to add per your request would be how many colonies were established per year to track cumulative multi-year survival.

I can do that, but I'll have to find some time to sit-down and work through this.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> The only thing I would need to add per your request would be *how many colonies were established per year to track cumulative multi-year survival.*


Yep; that is of interest and value - in the context of TF survivability in your local context (the same is approaching zero in my local context).
Yep; it takes time to recreate the time line unless you keep very current records (which is work).
Thanks Russ!


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> 2018 - 1
> 2019 - 6
> 2020 - 10
> 2021 - 16
> 2022 - 17


So I went back and checked the colony starts by year. First # is existing colony alive / Second # is colony starts:

2018 - 1 / 6
2019 - 6 / 12
2020 - 10 / 18
2021 - 16 / 21
2022 - 17 / 18

Not sure it means anything, but this represents a cumulative survival of 67% - 50 colonies currently alive from a total of 75 starts


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Not sure it means anything, but this represents a cumulative survival of 67% - 50 colonies currently alive from a total of 75 starts


Why, it is interesting.
For example - I see ~50% chance of continuous colony survival 3-4 years off the chems.
...................
2019 - 6 / 12
2020 - 10 / 18
......................

For me it is 0% chance of continuous colony survival 3-4 years off the chems.

I am interested in doing this side-by-side case study so to point out sensitivity to a local context for people to see how important that is.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Decided this afternoon to look at the colony count from a different perspective- I was curious, of the fifty (50) full-sized colonies in the yard, what is their age?
> 
> 2018 - 1
> 2019 - 6
> 2020 - 10
> 2021 - 16
> 2022 - 17
> 
> It will be interesting to see what effect colony age has on overall survival going forward.


mine is:
2020 - 5
2021 - 14
2022 - 27
And is queen age.
it is an interesting way to look at the Apiaries

GG


----------



## Litsinger

It has finally gotten reliably hot down here in the Western frontier of our fair Commonwealth and the colonies have begun bearding and wash-boarding in earnest.

It has been an interesting bloom year, with all the Spring blooms coming at once and all the summer blooms being late. Clovers are going strong but are on the tail end, and the Black-Eyed Susan, Coreopsis, St. John's Wort, Bee Balm and Illinois Bundleflower are just now getting going.

The flow is over and most of the drones were shown the exits in bulk over the last couple of weeks.

I was recently asked by our State Apiarist to participate in the USDA APHIS Survey of Honey Pests and Diseases.

She provided the following video link which outlines the protocol and assays- they employ the cumulative results of eight (8) colonies to represent the entire apiary:






Next task in the yard remains the 72-hour mite drop assay at the Summer Solstice- this one has proven to be the most predictive of overwintering prospects.


----------



## Gray Goose

wow the drones here do not get tossed till late Aug or Sept.
so your hive then cannot supercede as the drones are gone?

GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> so your hive then cannot supercede as the drones are gone?


They're not all gone, but the numbers are drastically reduced.

I am always amazed each year to dig through the colonies in late August and early September and find almost no brood- I think most queen swaps have already occurred.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> *wow the drones here do not get tossed till late Aug or Sept.*
> so your hive then cannot supercede as the drones are gone?
> 
> GG


Same.
One of my current queens is mid-September mated.


----------



## squarepeg

Litsinger said:


> They're not all gone, but the numbers are drastically reduced.


same here russ. i haven't seen a flying drone in days and also have witnessed the removal of drone larvae. the flow is certainly tapering here and we are on the verge of entering our summer dearth. i had hoped to do some queen rearing and make up nucs for overwintering, but now i am somewhat skeptical about proceeding with that.


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> i had hoped to do some queen rearing and make up nucs for overwintering, but now i am somewhat skeptical about proceeding with that.


@squarepeg:

I am thrilled to see you posting again- it makes it seem as if all is right with the Beesource world .

I was surprised to see that Cory Stevens last run of queens was last week (see attached)- when we toured his place, it looked like his blooms were about at the same place as ours.









I'll look forward to reading all about what has transpired in your apiary over the last year when you have the bandwidth and the gumption.

Take care of yourself-

Russ


----------



## AR1

Do you see honey bees on bee balm much? I don't. Lots of bumbles and various other bees and wasps, from tiny to huge, as well as moths, butterflies and hummingbirds. But only the occasional honey bee.


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> But only the occasional honey bee.


Same here. I wonder if it being a New World species the nectar is too deep for EHB's to reach. The bumblebees love it though, so I enjoy watching them.


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## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> This study posted in last month's Natural Bee Husbandry Magazine estimates the figure of wild hives in Germany at 4,400 to 5,600 based on the results of two beech forest evaluations.


Cool follow-up article in the May NBH Magazine evaluated a 3 year study of feral colonies living in 3 Western European locales with the following objectives (which mirror many of the thoughts that have been tossed-around here in Beesource over the last 5 years):


















While there are many interesting observations in the study, the group that stood out to me:


















Their conclusions mirror what has been discussed extensively here on the forum (and they address the TF bees in the UK as recently discussed as a bonus):


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> Cool post, Joe. Sounds like a worthwhile experiment to me. While I can only speak about my own experiences with any authority, it seems around here that I can pretty well tell the 'tale of the tape' by the Summer Solstice. At least here, a colony with mite drops much north of 30 in a 24 hour period at the start of summer is better than even odds to fail in the winter.
> 
> I don't know what the direct correlation of mite drop to drone infested cells would be, but knowing that mites preferentially invade drone brood, I would say a low assay in your drone cells would suggest low infestation overall.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how the same assay might turn out a month-and-a-half from now...
> 
> Do keep us posted! And best of success to you in your propagation efforts.


Actually broke a piece of sealed drone brood from the same frame, froze it, but did only minor breakage and mite-searching a couple weeks ago. Perhaps I'll have time for a diligent count soon. 


Gray Goose said:


> Joe
> a very valid and good test. one should know if this is to be a grafting mother what the drone / mite counts actually are.
> I would put in another Medium frame and do a check in 6 weeks, and try to do the same 350, and compare, same,, 4 times as many etc.
> 
> they must be doing something to keep the mites in check.
> 
> GG


Hopefully I will take time to do a good count soon. Did a half-hearted test on the same slab, but someone was pulling up to buy bees, and I had too much bee work ahead of me that day to take the 30-45min to get a good count. 

I'm sure they have another one drawn, laid and probably capped. 

At this point, from a biz perspective, I don't know if pursuing TF in any respect will make a difference here. I like having bees that aren't succumbing to mites regularly (though there are cons), but I haven't had a single person that was particularly adamant on TF. Some folks say they had trouble with Italians because of lax treatment schedules and they want to try different bees, but that's about it. 

Of course there are probably FB groups and such, but I haven't done FB in over a decade and really don't see going back to it. 

Assuming the TF hives I have go into fall with very low counts, I'll probably risk it one more winter. I will say the main experiment (from which I took the drone brood) has bees that are generally more jumpy than most of my other bees. But bear in mind that our treated hives have had very little treatment as well, guess I have my own lax thing going.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Actually broke a piece of sealed drone brood from the same frame, froze it, but did only minor breakage and mite-searching a couple weeks ago.


Joe:

Good to see your post. I sincerely hope all is well with you and your family.

Have you had a chance to peruse this older thread that @shinbone started? Good stuff in there that seems to offer some valid matrices for you to baseline against:









Mite count in drone brood as a diagnostic?


Rather than doing an alcohol wash or sugar roll of adult bees from the brood nest, etc., what about counting mites in drone brood to determine mite infestation levels? I'd rather pull 10 or 20 drone larva/pupa than assembly the equipment for an alcohol wash or sugar roll. Capped drone brood...




www.beesource.com







joebeewhisperer said:


> Assuming the TF hives I have go into fall with very low counts, I'll probably risk it one more winter. I will say the main experiment (from which I took the drone brood) has bees that are generally more jumpy than most of my other bees. But bear in mind that our treated hives have had very little treatment as well, guess I have my own lax thing going.


If nothing else, you can consider your approach 'Soft Bond'. You are allowing some resistance mechanisms to express themselves but not walking the tightrope without a net under you. Now couple this with your drone counts above and you're well on your way to a high-powered selection program.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Next task in the yard remains the 72-hour mite drop assay at the Summer Solstice...


Completed the 72-hour mite drop assay for all colonies with screened bottom boards (attached). A few take-aways and speculations:

1. I suspect that the mite load in the apiary overall is higher than it has been in past years. I question whether this is a function of accumulating mite load from an increased percentage of multi-year overwintered colonies and/or a higher colony density.

2. I again this year have several colonies that have breakthrough mite loads at the solstice after multiple years with manageable loads. These colonies also happen to be some of the most populous / productive. I am still trying to find the balance between productivity and sustainability. While I should proactively re-queen all colonies with a 72-hour drop north of 90, I continue to be on the look-out for tolerance mechanisms- if past years be any guide, these colonies will not collapse so much as dwindle out.

3. On a positive note, it appears there are several colonies that continue to hold mite levels down over several seasons.

Based strictly on these data, which colonies would you pick as potential breeding stock?


----------



## AR1

I worry about the TF common event of several years of good results then the sudden holocaust. 

Do you have a place you can isolate several of your colonies, as an insurance policy? Or even, remove queen from worst, treat, then requeen?


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Do you have a place you can isolate several of your colonies, as an insurance policy? Or even, remove queen from worst, treat, then requeen?


Not bad thoughts, AR1. I appreciate the feedback.

I continue to have Dr. Kefuss' admonition about selecting for tolerance rolling around in my mind. This- coupled with recent performance makes me less concerned about a catastrophic unfolding but I accept the possibility of this occurring.

That said, many folks have suggested that I should not have all my genetic eggs in one basket and it's hard to argue with this logic.

I'll have to start getting serious about finding an outyard or two.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> I'll have to start getting serious about finding an outyard or two.


Or even just stick a few Apivar strips into a few hives. Anathema, I know, I know, but. Such a shame to lose several years of progress.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Completed the 72-hour mite drop assay for all colonies with screened bottom boards (attached). A few take-aways and speculations:
> 
> 1. I suspect that the mite load in the apiary overall is higher than it has been in past years. I question whether this is a function of accumulating mite load from an increased percentage of multi-year overwintered colonies and/or a higher colony density.
> 
> 2. I again this year have several colonies that have breakthrough mite loads at the solstice after multiple years with manageable loads. These colonies also happen to be some of the most populous / productive. I am still trying to find the balance between productivity and sustainability. While I should proactively re-queen all colonies with a 72-hour drop north of 90, I continue to be on the look-out for tolerance mechanisms- if past years be any guide, these colonies will not collapse so much as dwindle out.
> 
> 3. On a positive note, it appears there are several colonies that continue to hold mite levels down over several seasons.
> 
> Based strictly on these data, which colonies would you pick as potential breeding stock?


1907,2008
is the * mean none or not checked?

what if the ones holding it down are "swarmy" and cast 2 or 3 would that still make them breeder potential?

GG


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Such a shame to lose several years of progress.


AR1:

Your point is well-received and appreciated. The other way to look at this is that it appears +/- 30 of the 35 colonies that I have the ability to assay are in good shape and look to be in a good position to overwinter successfully barring beekeeper error. The other 15 colonies remain a pig in a poke, but assuming their percentages are similar I would still be looking at +/- 80% survival.

Not trying to be overly optimistic nor Pollyannaish - just trying to trust the data.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> AR1:
> 
> Your point is well-received and appreciated. The other way to look at this is that it appears +/- 30 of the 35 colonies that I have the ability to assay are in good shape and look to be in a good position to overwinter successfully barring beekeeper error. The other 15 colonies remain a pig in a poke, but assuming their percentages are similar I would still be looking at +/- 80% survival.
> 
> Not trying to be overly optimistic nor Pollyannaish - just trying to trust the data.


Russ you could treat the high count ones, so they do not mite bomb your other hives and put the "replace queen brick" on the lid.

GG


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> is the * mean none or not checked?


Thanks, GG. I meant to note this and forgot. The asterisk (*) represents three colonies on one stand that I inadvertently failed to prepare the trays - walked right past them. 

I plan to get them ready this afternoon and get their results this weekend.



Gray Goose said:


> what if the ones holding it down are "swarmy" and cast 2 or 3 would that still make them breeder potential?


You've hit on my conundrum - based on the data identified to-date, what makes for good propagation material? Does continued low mite counts year-over-year supersede all other variables even if these colonies are relatively unproductive or swarmy, or are more productive colonies that end up miting-out after 3 or 4 years better to try to improve upon? 

Difficult to know what the 'right' answer is.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Russ you could treat the high count ones, so they do not mite bomb your other hives and put the "replace queen brick" on the lid.


I certainly could- again harkening back to Dr. Kefuss's advice: he recommended (and I paraphrase):

1. You want to keep mite pressure relatively high so that selection continues to do its' work.

2. You want to see colonies that become 'mite black holes' (his term, not mine) where mites go in, but don't come out.

This is obviously a big fork in the road - and I can completely understand and appreciate those that go down the 'Soft Bond' path. 

As Randy Oliver opines, _'All the advantages and none of the carnage'._


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> but assuming their percentages are similar I would still be looking at +/- 80% survival.


OR - since some of your colonies are most certainly will croak (with those super-high mite recordings!) - consider treating/saving them *for now* (just as resources and to be terminated later - but serving your needs).
Basically, treating means termination of the colony (whenever and how you actually terminate it - your choice).

You can say - well, some of these STILL may survive - true.
But the chances are low looking at those outstanding and *unprecedented *numbers, while cross-colony infestation likely-hood is high enough.

Those bees can die on their own - naturally.
OR - you can do for them - treat, then split up/shake up/re-queen/recreate new units around the new queens using the *still alive bees* (essentially terminating the failing colonies and creating different colonies out of them).


----------



## Litsinger

One more quick hit today- I saw a post on the 'Chasing Feral Honey Bees' FB Page relating to genomic testing that Dr. Brock Harpur had done on Kentucky survivor stock genetics.

I took the opportunity to follow-up with him and he was kind enough to reply as follows:

_'... the KY queens_ [that he evaluated]_ were among the most unique I have seen based on genome sequence data. They have little evidence of introgression from scutellata and look to have been isolated for some time. They look to be truly feral à la Arnot Forest bees. I can't comment on their usefulness in beekeeping--but Larry and the KY beekeepers have lots of success with them.'_

The photo below is Dr. Harpur receiving some of this queen stock for testing in his own yard.

I'll look forward to seeing how this turns out.


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## Litsinger

GregB said:


> But the chances are low looking at those outstanding and *unprecedented *numbers, while cross-colony infestation likely-hood is high enough.


Thanks, Greg. I would only clarify that the numbers are not unprecedented- I have had very similar outlier numbers the last two years on big boomer colonies. You just don't see it reflected on the mite drop table because they roll-off the list when they mite-out.

I'm inclined for now to let it ride, but reserve the right to take other measures (and to take responsibility for whatever happens).


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> One more quick hit today- I saw a post on the 'Chasing Feral Honey Bees' FB Page relating to genomic testing that Dr. Brock Harpur had done on Kentucky survivor stock genetics.
> 
> I took the opportunity to follow-up with him and he was kind enough to reply as follows:
> 
> _*'... the KY queens (that he evaluated) were among the most unique I have seen based on genome sequence data. They have little evidence of introgression from scutellata and look to have been isolated for some time. They look to be truly feral à la Arnot Forest bees. I can't comment on their usefulness in beekeeping--but Larry and the KY beekeepers have lots of success with them.'*_
> 
> The photo below is Dr. Harpur receiving some of this queen stock for testing in his own yard.
> 
> I'll look forward to seeing how this turns out.


Yep, this IS the Appalachian bee phenomenon.
Exactly that.
The same story of the Primoskiy bee from the Russian Far East is happening - just right here in the Appalachia.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thanks, Greg. I would only clarify that the numbers are not unprecedented- I have had very similar outlier numbers the last two years on big boomer colonies. You just don't see it reflected on the mite drop table b*ecause they roll-off the list when they mite-out.*
> 
> I'm inclined for now to let it ride, but reserve the right to take other measures (and responsibility for whatever happens)/


Oh.
Got ya.
Well - keep them ON the table - you totally should (just marked with the death date and corresponding mite recordings - that killed them).
Otherwise, you report incomplete data.
See that? 
We want to see all the dead bodies with tags on their toes.

(Hopefully, those records are recoverable).


----------



## msl

GregB said:


> Yep, this IS the Appalachian bee phenomenon.
> Exactly that.
> The same story of the Primoskiy bee from the Russian Far East is happening - just right here in the Appalachia.


arguably the same in Louisiana








(PDF) Changes in Honey Bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Colony Swarming and Survival Pre- and Postarrival of Varroa destructor (Mesostigmata: Varroidae) in Louisiana


PDF | The impact of Varroa destructor Anderson & Trueman (Mesostigmata: Varroidae) on colonies of Apis mellifera L. (Hymenoptera: Apidae) in southern... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net


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## AR1

Litsinger said:


> AR1:
> The other 15 colonies remain a pig in a poke, but assuming their percentages are similar I would still be looking at +/- 80% survival.
> 
> Not trying to be overly optimistic nor Pollyannaish - just trying to trust the data.


Take those 15 'losers', isolate THEM and let them go Bond!


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> Take those 15 'losers', isolate THEM and let them go Bond!


Which most likely means - they "mite-out".
One of those cases, where I'd prefer they croak quickly then and don't eat all the honey (so I can have it).
As long as there are enough bees left to carry on - it is OK too.


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## Litsinger

GregB said:


> We want to see all the dead bodies with tags on their toes.


Thanks, Greg. I can promise there is no intent to obfuscate- two reasons for removing the dead-outs from the reporting (and I still have the dead-out data that I can share if interested):

1. The table gets unruly when you try to show all the colonies (living and dead) over a five year (and presumably longer) duration.

2. The chart is intended to be predictive- based on the mite drop figures, who is in trouble and who has some promise for future propagation.

That said, It is safe to say that most of my losses year-in-and-year-out are due to mites, with a small percentage of queen issues thrown in.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Take those 15 'losers', isolate THEM and let them go Bond!


Not a bad idea- this exercise has caused me to consider carefully what might be considered a 'reasonable' mite load that resistant colonies could be expected to successfully rebuff.

With over 50 colonies in one yard, I think I am already playing with fire (irrespective of mites).

I'm going to see if Dr. Kefuss can offer any additional thoughts on this matter. I will update the thread with any feedback I receive.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thanks, Greg. I can promise there is no intent to obfuscate-


I have no doubt.
This is rather about the data completeness.
Interesting and instructive too.
But yes - I can see how it can get unwieldy.
Thanks for what you do anyway!
As it is - we have been building up a good knowledge base already.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Interesting and instructive too.


I will make a point to include all the winners and losers in the Fall mite drop assay so we can maybe unpack what I've been seeing around here. The quick:

Colonies with mite drops that are +30 / day at the summer solstice are in trouble. There have been a few exceptions but not many. 

These colonies have not tended to 'collapse' as I have seen with other stocks but rather 'dwindle out' as the summer bees die off and there is not a sufficient critical mass of winter bees to get them over the hump- often dying-out in late winter (i.e. March).


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## Gray Goose

the Mite black hole Kefuss refers to needs some clarification.
if the 300+ and 400+ dropped mites are mauled, and killed by bees then that can be the mystery black hole.
If they died of old age and are just there,, then, this is more volcano than black hole.

We may need to better understand the "mite Black hole" Kefuss describes, perhaps ask if you reach out.
In My mind 300+ in 72 hours is dead hive walking, and those last bees may join other hives or get robbed and literally 100's of mites could move to other hives by the fall.

good data keeping, I'll need something as I have to compare these new queens to the original ones.
enjoy the thread.

GG


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> These colonies have not tended to 'collapse' as I have seen with other stocks but rather 'dwindle out' as the summer bees die off and there is not a sufficient critical mass of winter bees to get them over the hump- often dying-out in late winter (i.e. March).


I have only seen one hive 'collapse' and that was a nasty experience. That was my second year, a swarm that came and died that same fall. I know now what _really_ susceptible hives look like! I have had quite a number of dwindler hives that died in the winter, and have to assume mites played a major role. 

My current crop of 'mean' bees are quite tolerable when considered in that context. They are alive. Now to make some splits and try to identify some less aggressive bees from that stock. The daughter already looks better, sitting in back my home minding their own business.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ... the Mite black hole Kefuss refers to needs some clarification.


Thanks, GG. I appreciate the encouragement. I have contacted Dr. Kefuss and will update the thread with his feedback.

The trends are fairly clear, but then you have a colony like 2003 which had a 72 hour mite drop of 201 last September, overwintered successfully and now has a reading of 22 at the solstice. 

For that matter, one of the colonies on the watch-list (1803) had a 72 hour mite drop of 107 at the same period last year- and seems to have their back against the wall again this year.

It is stuff like this that keeps me guessing and wondering what (if anything) I should be selecting for other than survival.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Thanks, GG. I appreciate the encouragement. I have contacted Dr. Kefuss and will update the thread with his feedback.
> 
> The trends are fairly clear, but then you have a colony like 2003 which had a 72 hour mite drop of 201 last September, overwintered successfully and now has a reading of 22 at the solstice.
> 
> For that matter, one of the colonies on the watch-list (1803) had a 72 hour mite drop of 107 at the same period last year- and seems to have their back against the wall again this year.
> 
> It is stuff like this that keeps me guessing and wondering what (if anything) I should be selecting for other than survival.


true
is the drop from the bees removing.
do we propagate the ones who go to 100+ and survive?
do we want the ones than stay below 20 year over year?
there is one that for 3 years is less each time , is that a good one?

you have the tea leaves but the decoder ring..... to read them may be more important.
Also the one that came back from 201 which swarm came from that hive?
there are links between that hive and a current swarm, are they of value?

seems with bees every answered question creates a couple more.


GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> is the drop from the bees removing.


That is a good question- everything I have read suggests that mite biting is a good trait and one that helps, but that in-and-of-itself it is not enough. You might be right that these high drop totals might be these colonies attempting to bring their mite load down.



Gray Goose said:


> ... to read them may be more important.


This is very true. If I take everything I have learned to-date, I might be inclined to propagate from #2013 and #2120 due to their mite assays to-date, growth and temperament and productivity. But it looks like year 3 may be the real acid test. 



Gray Goose said:


> Also the one that came back from 201 which swarm came from that hive?


Near as I can tell, this colony never swarmed this year. They came through the winter but were relatively weak starting out. They have built-up beautifully however and now by all appearances seem to be in good shape heading into summer.



Gray Goose said:


> seems with bees every answered question creates a couple more.


Truer words have never been spoken- at least near as I can tell...


----------



## Litsinger

Caught a forager on the front porch alerting her sisters to a collection opportunity. Looks like it's due East, but maybe a long flight.









Waggle Dance


Forager alerting others to nectar opportunity.




youtube.com


----------



## squarepeg

my small sample size, lack of metrics (including no mite counts), and short course of only 12 years has my approach to selection as such:

queen mothers are selected based on # of successful overwintered seasons firstly, and then beyond that the criterian are a mixed bag of: response to swarm prevention techniques, obvious brood modulation evidenced by colony operations preceeding the local nectar flow by about one brood cycle, honey production, temperment, tendency to heavily propilize, and then just a subjective account on how much I like the colony.

obviously several of the above are interdependent on each other, but i think you get the idea.


----------



## GregB

My perfect bee would be Carnica with all its attributes - mite resistance added.
Got one such queen on my porch now.
I hope to have her daughters mated to my VSH drones (fingers crossed!).
Though the results will be unpredictable - most likely.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> queen mothers are selected based on # of successful overwintered seasons firstly...


As always, SP. Great feedback. I am glad to see you back on the boards.

To-date, what is the longest surviving colony you have had sans-treatments?

Or asking another way, how many times does a queen (or her succeeding progeny) have to overwinter before you consider them breeding material?


----------



## squarepeg

good question russ. keeping in mind that if i create an artificial swarm type split both the donor hive and the split keep adding years to their overwintering count. i think i was up to 7 or 8 years on my longest before i stopped keeping detailed notes in 2019.

the supplier (who has since retired from beekeeping due to health reasons) from whom i purchased my first nucs from had 2 colonies that he used primarily for honey production, i.e. did not split and rarely even took grafts from, had 20+ years on both colonies without having to requeen. these colonies were harvested out of the woods by the cutting down of bee trees back when mites first started decimating the imported stock in our area.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> 3. On a positive note, it appears there are several colonies that continue to hold mite levels down over several seasons.
> 
> Based strictly on these data, which colonies would you pick as potential breeding stock?


Too many variables for me to pick another man's breeding stock, or even offer suggestions. My immediate reaction is "Pick 2008! The one with NO mites!", but without knowing more details this could be the wrong choice. 

I've also come to realize, more this year than any, how difficult it is to maintain momentum with any surety that the genetics you want (and possess) are getting passed on. I put 90% of my early eggs in one basket by coaxing my best queen into laying up drone frames, then moving some of this larvae to other colonies to share the burden of raising them. Didn't graft any queens from her, nor will I, particularly now that her boys are everywhere. 

On a side note: I had a split from my brother's bees which I ended up handing back to him with a daughter of his queen. It's a long story, but basically I ended up making some queens with a packed-out queenless 10-frame hive of his bees (which are likely closer to mine with each swarm season). Each of 2 small grafts had BQCV that killed one cell. At first I wasn't sure, but after the results repeated a second time I am. So nosema may or may not be present, and mites may or may not be an issue. 

I put a queen of Russian descent in the box yesterday, and since I had no need to keep this one TF, and it was broodless, I vaped it like a nuclear bomb. I put down some wax paper under a screened bottom to see what falls out. I'm rarely thinking about mites (which is lovely), but in this case I want to know.

Take care my friend.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> "Pick 2008! The one with NO mites!", but without knowing more details this could be the wrong choice.


Joe:

It is always good to hear from you. Glad things are going well in your apiary- how many queens did you end up making this season?

It was probably a dirty trick on my part, but when I noted zero mites on #2008, I also noted a good bit of SHB larvae in the tray. I made a note to inspect them at my earliest opportunity and finally did so yesterday, finding them broodless and queenless. They still had a good population of bees, so they got combined with #2212.

It is things like this that remind me that resistance selection (or even evaluation) requires careful consideration of so many variables, and even these change year-over-year such that it makes for less than confident determinations of stock to emphasize traits. For example, up to this year I might have given preference to both #1804 and #1912 as breeder candidates- but both have less than stellar mite drops this year and I wonder if they are getting ready to drop offline.

As of now I might feature #2013 and #2120 based on a combination of survival, mite numbers and general attributes but this could all change next year.



joebeewhisperer said:


> I'm rarely thinking about mites (which is lovely), but in this case I want to know.


It is heartening to read that you continue to meet with success relative to impaired mite population growth. I do look forward to reading about your future TF experimentations.

Have a great week, my friend.

Russ


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> It is heartening to read that you continue to meet with success relative to impaired mite population growth. I do look forward to reading about your future TF experimentations.
> 
> Have a great week, my friend.
> 
> Russ


Hey Russ,

It is indeed a difficult proposition to pick one line over another if you have more than one contender and only so many boxes, and years of life. 

I made only the one executive decision early-on and that was taking my far-and-away best hive and making 8-10K drones from this queen right-away, then more later. She is therefore not the mother of any queens this year, but now resides in a box that is over my head (waiting for sourwood), has produced 2 nucs which I sold, and probably 65lb of honey of the recent extraction. She was also the source of probably 4-5lb of nurses over the spring which were used in mating nucs and to boost smaller colonies. 

Gives me a glimpse of why people keep large-clustered Italians through winter and take on the burden of diligent mite treatments and associated challenges. A healthy, average, Italian colony in the same setup over-winter (mmd 10-frame) would have probably done just as well. However, I would have killed it in Dec by failing to stay on top of mites. 

So I'll breeze on through with tiny clusters, late-buildup, and probably smaller yields all-around. But I surely like these bees. 

In answer to your question on number of queens, couldn't say for sure but I have about 30 mating nucs loaded and have probably produced 40-50 so far (this includes a few virgins sold out of the incubator. I haven't had as much call for them this year, but the last few days several people are calling for 1-2, then when they confirm they can get them they up the order to several more. My goal is to completely shut it down by Aug 1 so I have time to do something besides bees this year. So less than 100 for the season. The nation's queen breeders are safe, I am definitely not going to be a threat.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> So I'll breeze on through with tiny clusters, late-buildup, and probably smaller yields all-around. But I surely like these bees.


Joe:

I always appreciate your thoughtful and well-written commentary. This sentiment is something that rolls-around in my mind all the time too and makes me wonder whether it is even practical to suggest that a TF pre-varroa phenotype is possible on a landscape scale?

I know that the Hilo and Pol-Line selection efforts are aiming toward commercial production (with good reason)- but I often wonder if the bees are trying to tell us that the selection that varroa is trying to facilitate is instead pointing toward colonies that are patterned more along the lines of what you are seeing.

Practically speaking, should we be thinking about reorienting our collective apicultural industry toward smaller, less productive colonies but just more of them?



joebeewhisperer said:


> The nation's queen breeders are safe, I am definitely not going to be a threat.


Looking at it another way- 100 queens and 10K drones quickly becomes a big genetic contribution you are making. Sounds like you've got queen rearing down pat. Good for you.

Please always feel welcome to chime in- I enjoy reading about what is going on in your operation South and East of me.


----------



## Litsinger

It is hot and dry down here in the hot corner of the Bluegrass State. Found another colony (#2115) queenless today. That makes 3 for the year and this is more summer queen failures than I have ever dealt with before. That said, there are also a lot more colonies around these days, so that may be all there is to it.

The kids found a good sized European Hornet- we rarely ever see them flying around nor evidence of their nests, but do see overwintered queens from time-to-time early in the season.

Colonies in general seem to be holding their own. None are putting on any weight, but I did find a fair bit of open nectar during inspections today and the 'Reference' Hive weight has held steady for the past month.

All my drawn comb is installed on colonies and I've taken care of all the obvious issues I am aware of, so now I think I can finally take a break from the bees for awhile and get to work in the orchard- it is looking pretty overgrown at present.

Happy Independence Day to one and all.

Russ


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> Thought of your post this afternoon as I saw this update from Randy Oliver- best of success to you as you deal with this.


Moving this here since it has little to do with that situation. Plus the audience in this sub-fourm is much more pleasant  

Noticed these two items when Randy posted to BEE-L,
"For better detection screening, the DPI just received a large shipment of stickyboards from the U.S. (which I've made clear are more efficacious at detection than are alcohol washes)."

"Alcohol washes or sugar shakes of 300 bees can easily miss a low-level infestation. An "accelerated" stickyboard count, using formic acid, rapid-release amitraz, or even whole-colony sugar dusting, will have fewer false negatives."

Apples and oranges but bear with me... Personally do not like alcohol washes for several reasons, time, having to go into the hive, plus family members who are deeply offended by killing living creatures. What I did in 2020 was to monitor sticky boards (almost) daily the entire month of August and treated the (single) hive with the highest count. Worked and over wintered 7 out of 7. Did not do this 2021 and it bit me in the same place Forrest Gump got bit The single hive treated (thermal) was picked at random since I was anticipating VSH daughter queens from two sources and wanted a clean hive to split. Neither source came through, nor did a bunch of my hives...

Not working the over time I was last year so plan to make this year more like 2020 and less like 2021. Refinements to this plan are welcome!


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> What I did in 2020 was to monitor sticky boards (almost) daily the entire month of August and treated the (single) hive with the highest count.


@William Bagwell:

I am not sure that my system is an improvement over what you've described, but I have been recording mite drop counts 4 times a year at the start of each season (i.e. Spring/Summer/Fall/Winter) to hopefully work toward establishing a baseline to correlate to Winter survival.

The single best corollary I've found to-date is that colonies with a mite drop of much North of 30 per 24 hour period at the Summer Solstice are usually in trouble. I've also gone to doing 72 hour mite drops and calculating an average 3-day mite fall due to daily variation:









Mite Management Update 2013 - Scientific Beekeeping


Monitoring Mites by Sampling Frame-to-Frame Consistency of Samples Mite Recovery of the Alcohol Wash Sticky Boards Natural Mite Drop vs. Alcohol Wash Discussion Experimenting with MAQS Strips References and Footnotes Mite Management Update 2013 Randy Oliver ScientificBeekeeping.com First...




scientificbeekeeping.com





If you wanted to, you could pick a regular sampling interval and think about intervening into colonies that reach 'X' threshold mite drop at 'Y' day(s) while letting all those under the threshold keep doing what they're doing.

Just a thought...


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> (i.e. Spring/Summer/Fall/Winter)


Agree something regular / systematic for the rest of the year will be better than random spot checks. Not so sure about winter, can not do a thermal below 70 degrees F ambient. Do I really want to know? Guess there is sugar dusting, assuming it is just as safe then as any other time? Might even catch a brood break and it not be a total waste of time.


----------



## ursa_minor

William Bagwell said:


> Guess there is sugar dusting, assuming it is just as safe then as any other time? Might even catch a brood break and it not be a total waste of time.


I did sugar dusting the first year, you do get a mite drop. I found that I had to do it repeatedly and when I got into the latter part of the summer when I opened the hive the sugar would attract robbers as much of it falls to the floor of the hive.


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> Do I really want to know?


@William Bagwell while I think you might be asking the question tongue-in-cheek, you do raise in my mind an interesting argument. I often see a question phrased something akin to this on a lot of TF boards: 'If my bees survive, why should I care how they survive?'

And while I don't take umbrage with folks approaching the varroa problem this way, it has always left me unsatisfied to simply encourage people to hope for the best and prepare for the worst each season, especially when they are working with package bee stocks. 

So even in a TF setting, I think a semi-systematic mite population metric or two is an important evaluation tool for two reasons:

1. While viral tolerance is definitely a thing, the vast majority of stocks which have shown better than average survival in the absence of treatments due so predominantly by resisting mite population growth (i.e. resistance). Thus, if someone gets to the point where they are ready to engage in systematic selection efforts, low MPG needs to be high on the criteria list IMHO.

2. It does provide a means to predict future outcomes. While not cast in stone, I can judge by the Summer mite drops which colonies will likely thrive coming out of winter and which ones will fail - this is helpful if for no other reason than for resource allocation and apiary planning.

And on a personal level, I am always interested in the 'why'.

If my colonies are surviving in spite of mites, I want to know why. 

Conversely, if they are failing despite low mite counts, I want to know why.

And the first step to learning the answer to the 'why' question is to have some idea of comparative mite loads both between colonies and between years.

So I wonder if the specific mechanism of mite assay (alcohol wash, mite drop, sugar dusting, drone brood, etc.) is less important than conducting the assay of choice in a systematic way such that over time, trends emerge that can help objectively guide our propagation efforts.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> @William Bagwell
> So I wonder if the specific mechanism of mite assay (alcohol wash, mite drop, sugar dusting, drone brood, etc.) is less important than conducting the assay of choice in a systematic way such that over time, trends emerge that can help objectively guide our propagation efforts.


This.


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> @William Bagwell while I think you might be asking the question tongue-in-cheek, you do raise in my mind an interesting argument. I often see a question phrased something akin to this on a lot of TF boards: 'If my bees survive, why should I care how they survive?'


Not quite as tongue-in-cheek as it appeared since miticides are not an option I will consider. Should have added "at that time of year". But yes, knowing the exact mechanism(s) of resistance should be on every ones list. (Ain't made it to the top of mine yet ) Adding diversity and possibly trying to combine multiple traits are worthy goals.



Litsinger said:


> So I wonder if the specific mechanism of mite assay (alcohol wash, mite drop, sugar dusting, drone brood, etc.) is less important than conducting the assay of choice in a systematic way such that over time, trends emerge that can help objectively guide our propagation efforts.


Of the four listed here, only one can be done without opening the hive. See where I'm trying to go? Unfortunately screened bottom boards have a very serious flaw, (no, none of _those_ flaws...) and are incompatible with thermal treatments. Plastic ones such as the Ultimate IPM Bottom Board totally, wooden ones can be modified. Then unmodified to... Working on a multifunctional hive base (and beetle trap!) that can easily be switched from monitoring to treatment mode and back again. Will also address several of those other problems with ScBB. Watch for a thread or two about them soon.


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> Of the four listed here, only one can be done without opening the hive. See where I'm trying to go?


This, along with the ability to support SHB control of necessary is what lead me to employ ScBB. In your specific situation, I wonder if you could make a plywood dummy board that takes the place of your beetle tray for thermal treatment?


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Litsinger said:
> ......conducting the assay of choice in a systematic way such that over time............
> 
> This.


Yep.

Conducting things in 1)a systematic way and 2)over long enough time - this matters.

People jump all over the place, try this and that, and have no patience - produces meaningless outcomes of little reusable utility.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

GregB said:


> Yep.
> 
> Conducting things in 1)a systematic way and 2)over long enough time - this matters.
> 
> People jump all over the place, try this and that, and have no patience - produces meaningless outcomes of little reusable utility.


That sums up a lot of stuff I've done, ... and not just in bees. lol

Slightly random side note: My chief TF hive (6 over 6 over 6 Lyson) has swarmed, leaving a respectable population behind. I was looking for some grafting stock today and thought, "Well, I haven't opened this one in probably a month."

I pulled at least 1 (but I'm thinking 2) splits from it probably in May, also loaded a few minis with nurses from it early-on as it was among the 3 top producers as far as buildup in April.

They may be hanging around in a few traps I have within 50-60 yd/m from the yard, but I really don't care if they've gone out further. At this point I'm winding down and getting the yard back in order for fall/winter.

Hope everyone is having a great season.


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> This, along with the ability to support SHB control of necessary is what lead me to employ ScBB. In your specific situation, I wonder if you could make a plywood dummy board that takes the place of your beetle tray for thermal treatment?


None of my in use ScBB have trays, ones I am building will. MMK recommends reflectix tight against the screen, so either an open bottom stand for access or pick up the hive or disassemble / reassemble hive. None are good long term options.

Did not get back to that project this weekend  Was close to being finished until I realized my free screen was two different sizes and stupid me grabbed the wrong one. Not just one, four prototypes!


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> None of my in use ScBB have trays, ones I am building will.


I think they are a good all around tool, if for no other reason affording one the opportunity to evaluate the contents in the tray for evidence of larvae, mites, jagged cappings, etc,

I hope your prototype efforts work out well and you have a good tool that covers a lot of bases for you.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> We may need to better understand the "mite Black hole" Kefuss describes, perhaps ask if you reach out.


So I heard back from Dr. Kefuss on this question- his advice makes a lot of sense:

_'You must be careful using only varroa fall. I don’t use varroa fall anymore. It is more efficient to count the varroa on the bees and in the brood. If you look at figures 3 and 4 in the attached ABJ paper you can see high mite drops but fewer mites in the brood and on the bees. A high mite drop might mean that the colony is killing mites not only from it’s bees but also from mites drifting in from other hives. So if you eliminate colonies with high mite drops you might be eliminating your best resistant queens. When selecting it is important to have varroa pressure even its it means that you are going to loose a few hives. If you count mite drop, mites on bees and mites in the brood you will have a much better idea of what is going on and be able to do some real selection. Colonies with high mite counts in the brood and on the bees should be requeened.'_

In the paper he references (attached) he describes the three-fold method of determining mite infestation:









And outlines how mite drop (in-and-of-itself) does not necessarily comport with a high mite load:










Finally, I thought this was interesting- just a good reminder that it is likely prudent to give resistance and/or tolerance mechanisms time to both express themselves in the population and also give the beekeeper time to get a better understanding of what is actually going on:


----------



## Gray Goose

several years,,,,, But I'm impatient....

good follow up.

GG


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> So I heard back from Dr. Kefuss on this question- his advice makes a lot of sense:
> 
> _'You must be careful using only varroa fall. I don’t use varroa fall anymore. It is more efficient to count the varroa on the bees and in the brood. If you look at figures 3 and 4 in the attached ABJ paper you can see high mite drops but fewer mites in the brood and on the bees. A high mite drop might mean that the colony is killing mites not only from it’s bees but also from mites drifting in from other hives. So if you eliminate colonies with high mite drops you might be eliminating your best resistant queens._


Might also be eliminating propensity to rob, since I think that is likely the worst form of drift.

But yes, all of this is food for thought. Wonder if a simple test could confirm, monitor ten hives for two weeks then install robber screens on all the weak ones. Monitor two more weeks and compare the trend lines.


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> Wonder if a simple test could confirm, monitor ten hives for two weeks then install robber screens on all the weak ones. Monitor two more weeks and compare the trend lines.


That does sound like a good test protocol- and something that might have practical benefit to boot for those of us who live in areas with a significant summer dearth. Affords plenty of opportunity to run multiple two-week iterations- particularly in the excessively dry summer we are experiencing here in Western Kentucky...


----------



## Litsinger

Bottled a little honey this evening and it caused me to reflect on what I've learned about our local honey market now that I'm able to produce a reliable surplus. I've been batch bottling it in 3 sizes, 0.5#, 1# and 2# containers. I figured that the 8 and 16 oz containers would be the most popular, but the 32 oz containers have proven far more popular.

The other thing I've observed is that I think that ironically people think the packaging is too slick- I think people would be more excited with a mason jar with the word 'Honey' written in permanent marker on it- exuding a vibe of homemade.

Given that I typically extract in the Fall after the first cold weather sets in, this is last year's honey- I'm pleased there has been no signs of granulation yet at 9 months out.

As a full season honey, this batch is dark with a complicated flavor with a rather citrus finish to it. Older folks in particular have enjoyed the heavy taste.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I think people would be more excited with a mason jar with the word 'Honey' written in permanent marker on it- exuding a vibe of homemade.


I would have agreed with those people.
Looks too commercial, Russ.

If it was standing on a shelf in a store - I would have walked by without giving a look.
How am I to know what it is?
Looks commercial to me.

Something simple and less than perfect is my preference. 
Sort of like so, in a salsa jar.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Looks too commercial, Russ.


Ya, I thought about going for the whole apothecary look, but as they say, 'You live and learn.'

Next time its Ball jars, duct tape and Sharpie markers.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Ya, I thought about going for the whole apothecary look, but as they say, 'You live and learn.'
> 
> Next time its Ball jars, duct tape and Sharpie markers.


Do you have a third-grader in the house? Have him/her make some crude clay pots.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Do you have a third-grader in the house? Have him/her make some crude clay pots.


Now that's a thought, AR1. 3 of our children are the in the 3rd grade and younger crowd so we could triple our throughput.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Ya, I thought about going for the whole apothecary look, but as they say, 'You live and learn.'
> 
> Next time its Ball jars, duct tape and Sharpie markers.


I like that look Russ
which marker works that good on Glass?

BTW I use Ps & Qs been working for me.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> which marker works that good on Glass?


That's where the duct tape comes in...


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Here is another detailed survey of the contemporary research into the mechanisms of resistance courtesy of Mr. Les Crowder.
> 
> _Natural selection, selective breeding, and the evolution of resistance of honeybees (Apis mellifera) against Varroa_


Here is a 'Hive Jive' interview with Les, outlining his thoughts on this paper. In summary- Genetic diversity is the key to developing a resistant population.









136 - NBC pt 9 - Natural Selection with Les Crowder


For our 9th installment of the Natural Beekeeping Corner, Nathalie is again joined by Les Crowder as the pair discuss ideas based on an article from 2020 titled “Natural Selection, Selective Breeding, and Evolution of Resistance of Honey Bees – Apis Mellif...




thehivejive.podbean.com


----------



## Litsinger

First of the early goldenrod blooming here- right on time:

2021 - 08.01

2020 - 08.02

2019 - 07.28

2018 - 08.04


----------



## drummerboy

We generally begin removing supers when the goldenrod begins blooming....hopefully (for us) that bloom is still a couple weeks away, because it spells the end of our season up here. 

That said; August is primarily our Winter prep month...all month long.


----------



## Litsinger

drummerboy said:


> ... hopefully (for us) that bloom is still a couple weeks away, because it spells the end of our season up here.


The early goldenrod around here tells us that we are a month away from whatever Fall flow we might have. It has been especially dry here this summer so I'm not particularly optimistic.

Our growing season tends to end suddenly and unpredictibly- sometimes in late October and sometimes not until mid December.


----------



## Litsinger

Caught some bees in the act of enlarging their entrance this morning.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Caught some bees in the act of enlarging their entrance this morning.


What size hive is that?


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> What size hive is that?


8-Frame Lang


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> 8-Frame Lang


I use narrow, small entrances like that a lot.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I use narrow, small entrances like that a lot.


I found that leaving a small entrance year round cuts down on the SHB pressure- but this colony as least seems to think they might like a bit more room.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> I found that leaving a small entrance year round cuts down on the SHB pressure- but this colony as least seems to think they might like a bit more room.


SHB, yellow jackets, bumble bees, robbers. Whatever. I suppose a mouse could squeeze in there, but probably not if the guards are alert. I have seen so many large entrances completely propolized shut down to one-bee, that I stopped believing the bees need big entrances.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I have seen so many large entrances completely propolized shut down to one-bee, that I stopped believing the bees need big entrances.


When given the opportunity they certainly can shape their own entrance reducers.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> First of the early goldenrod blooming here- right on time:
> 
> 2021 - 08.01
> 
> 2020 - 08.02
> 
> 2019 - 07.28
> 
> 2018 - 08.04


hmmm
extraction week is near.
I'll start pulling supers in 2 weeks.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I was recently asked by our State Apiarist to participate in the USDA APHIS Survey of Honey Pests and Diseases.


Dr. Potter came by today and we completed this assay- it involved pulling a frame or two per colony with open brood and collecting two cups of nurse bees- one cup goes into a live bee shipping container to be overnighted to Beltsville and one cup goes in an alcohol wash.

We quickly evaluated approximately 24 colonies and she gave the yard a clean bill of health.

Saw lots of capped brood and they are busy backfilling the nest as they emerge- they've got Winter on their mind.


----------



## squarepeg

very cool russ!! many thanks for sharing.


----------



## Litsinger

Found this gal busy enjoying a little bee snack- seems like kind of a bad way to go out...


----------



## Litsinger

Been a different kind of bee year- after an especially cool and wet Spring, we've had an especially hot and dry Summer.

There have been more queen issues than in past years- four colonies have come up queenless over the summer.

And then this- an August cast swarm from one of the Warre colonies. I suspect this is due in part to an especially strong soybean flow, coming on late due to planting late- lots of new wax being laid down.

Several of the Warres look kind of big and swarmy, so this may not be the last...


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Been a different kind of bee year- after an especially cool and wet Spring, we've had an especially hot and dry Summer.
> 
> There have been more queen issues than in past years- four colonies have come up queenless over the summer.
> 
> And then this- an August cast swarm from one of the Warre colonies. I suspect this is due in part to an especially strong soybean flow, coming on late due to planting late- lots of new wax being laid down.
> 
> Several of the Warres look kind of big and swarmy, so this may not be the last...


late swarms
natures fix for queen less hives
watch this one to see if it makes it to spring, has been requeened now.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> natures fix for queen less hives


You read my mind- they got dumped into a queenless colony and seem to be doing o.k. Had two virgin queens in there and they were both balled when I dumped them in. Be interesting to see who emerges - both had black tips like the queens you got from Cory.


----------



## squarepeg

queen failure is my single most challenging management issue russ. because of it i am going to have modify my minimalist management approach.

i've lost three colonies this season because of it. the first colony issued a huge (larger than a 10 frame lang) swarm, failed to requeen itself, and failed to to make a new queen with eggs i gave it. the second was from an outyard that had been looking and sounding good from the outside based on weekly drive bys. i was attempting to requeen the third, but made the ppb mistake of leaving too much room to patrol, (never been a problem until this time, and i have always been amazed at how small of a colony could patrol so much space).

was not able to spread the resources around the apiary as i have always done in the past when losing a colony.

so i just finished cleaning up three hives worth of resources. what a royal mess. at least i ended up with 8 - 9 gallons of honey fit for mead, (this will be my first attempt at that).

the remedy for me going forward is nuc production and more frequent in hive verification of queen status. this won't be easy because of the summer brood break and terrible working conditions, but....

my goal is to keep a dozen or resource nucs going throughout the year. queen banks more than anything, but just what the doctor ordered if i find a hive queenless and broodless going forward. these will also remedy any winter losses, and any surplus nucs at that time of the year will be sold for profit.


----------



## squarepeg

i think part of my issue is that in addition to the summer brood break my colonies cease drone production pretty early in the season. also, dr. geoff williams at our own auburn university has studied the effects of neonics on drone viability and found a link there. i may give him a holler and talk drones.


----------



## squarepeg

oh, i meant to mention that the last two queenless colony losses described above still yielded two supers each of quality table honey for the season, which retailed at a little over $1200. the first one was too small after the big swarm it issued and it was too early in the flow to get harvestable honey.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> my goal is to keep a dozen or resource nucs going throughout the year.


Thanks for your insight, SP. I think you are on to something with the resource colonies. I bought a dozen Pro Nucs for this purpose, but got worried about how to overwinter them- not really thinking about how handy they would be throughout the season- lesson learned for next year.



squarepeg said:


> i think part of my issue is that in addition to the summer brood break my colonies cease drone production pretty early in the season.


Same issue here- they stop brood rearing rather early too. I'll often be nosing around in early September and find no brood in many colonies.



squarepeg said:


> still yielded two supers each of quality table honey for the season


Sounds like a good haul- making lemonade out of lemons.


----------



## squarepeg

Litsinger said:


> Thanks for your insight, SP. I think you are on to something with the resource colonies. I bought a dozen Pro Nucs for this purpose, but got worried about how to overwinter them- not really thinking about how handy they would be throughout the season- lesson learned for next year.


good plan. i think you can overwinter in lang five frames, a medium over a deep. especially if you use migratory tops and push them together, perhaps tacking on some foam board on the outside walls of the end hives.



Litsinger said:


> Same issue here- they stop brood rearing rather early too. I'll often be nosing around in early September and find no brood in many colonies.


interesting. you many have similar genetics to us. fusion_power believes based on color and traits these bees derive from a.m.m., or what the old timers around here call 'german black bees'. do yours tend to look a little bit dark in color?



Litsinger said:


> Sounds like a good haul- making lemonade out of lemons.


indeed. plus i didn't have to burn any frames like i did with efb. i am washing the comb really good with the garden hose and brass nossle however, followed by a good drying inside using a floor fan. will likely use bt aizawai to protect them in the garage until splitting time next spring.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> i think you can overwinter in lang five frames, a medium over a deep.


I know 5x5 mediums winter well here- you have a good idea of possibly looking to consolidate 6-frame medium Pro Nucs on a pallet a la Kirk Webster.



squarepeg said:


> do yours tend to look a little bit dark in color?


The bees in my yard range from small and dark to big and tiger striped. The best ones tend to have Carni-like traits. And this- I've heard from more than one RHB guy that a red abdomen with a black tip on the end is a common Primorski trait, so I imagine there is a fair amount of Russian influence in there.


squarepeg said:


> plus i didn't have to burn any frames like i did with efb.


I truly am glad to read that you seem to be past that scourage- it was painful to read and I can imagine it was difficult to persevere and come out better on the other side- but it seems you've done it. Good on you!


----------



## squarepeg

many thanks russ.

i promised myself to move forward from the efb experience with an open mind and a surrendered heart, not committing to continuing on with bees unless my ongoing experience and inner feeling about the whole thing led me to do so. i will continue approach my beekeeping this way going forward.

at this stage i feel the stock i have is a valuable resource and my intention is to be a good steward with it, i.e. propagate as much as possible and try to get these genetics out into the surrounding area, thereby influencing the footprint to the degree that circumstances allow.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> at this stage i feel the stock i have is a valuable resource and my intention is to be a good steward with it, i.e. propagate as much as possible and try to get these genetics out into the surrounding area, thereby influencing the footprint to the degree that circumstances allow.


This makes a lot of sense to me, and may be one of the better things folks at the sideliner level can do to impact the genetic profile on a landscape scale.


----------



## Litsinger

Cool beard- sort of a Vandyke style:


----------



## squarepeg

i see several different color phenotypes there russ, but the predominant darker ones resemble the predominant ones in my hives. nice photo!

is that an upper entrance you have plugged up at this time?


----------



## Gray Goose

squarepeg said:


> my goal is to keep a dozen or resource nucs going throughout the year. queen banks more than anything, but just what the doctor ordered if i find a hive queenless and broodless going forward. these will also remedy any winter losses, and any surplus nucs at that time of the year will be sold for profit.


this is a good plan.
I made 10 just to have a few queens, ended up using 3 of them on queen less hives sold 4, and still have a couple I plan to try to over winter.

you and Russ have that drone thing where now there is none.

So in the vane of make hay when the sun shines, why not make 6 or 8 NUCS when the drones are present then in the fall, any left can be combined or try to winter as overwintered NUCs. I find they are great at comb building.

of course with Murphys law you make and then need none so that could also happen.

GG


----------



## squarepeg

not a bad suggestion gg. sometimes we get drones in the fall and sometimes we don't. the fall flow generally doesn't hold a candle to our main spring flow. best to make hay here when the colonies are doing it naturally on their own, i.e. swarm season.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> i see several different color phenotypes there russ, but the predominant darker ones resemble the predominant ones in my hives.


There are several colonies in our yard that run consistently dark colored, but I'd say the attached photo gives an idea of what the 'typical' bee patrilines in the yard look like:



squarepeg said:


> is that an upper entrance you have plugged up at this time?


It is- I used to run them on all my hives until I began observing weird behavior during this time of year (namely aggressive consumption of stores). @gww made me aware of the following thread, and problem solved:









Top entrances cost too much


I have all top entrances but one hive. Some have an additional bottom entrance, but they mostly use the top. Last year I had an issue that I thought was the fault of the queen genetics somehow, but it's back this year through 3 different lines of bees. The honey flow was good and long, and my...




www.beesource.com





At least around here, they had desire to have their brood nest near the upper entrance and would tunnel through the food, brooding up to be set-up in the top box for winter.

Following, I would open the entrances for winter operation until last year, where I experimented with leaving them in with no apparent negative effects:









Condensing Hive? (NO upper entrance)


I've been listening to Zooms by Bill Hesbach and what he says about ventilation and insulation make sense to me. So much that I will try it with some of my hives this winter. For those not familiar with the Condensing Hive logic it is essentially this: ventilation negates insulation. Bees do...




www.beesource.com


----------



## squarepeg

there's know way of knowing unless you tried it, but you could retain the ventilation advantage by stapling a screen over that top opening, and since the foragers won't be depositing pollen up there it's not likely they will brood in the top.

honey production could potentially be increased by virtue of better ventillation aids in the more efficient drying of nectar for the colony, in terms of less time and effort spent converting nectar to honey.

these are the reasons i run screened openings front and back top on my hives. also, screened openings don't allow shb and wax moths access to the cavity.

again, your bees may use propolis to 'adjust' how much of the screened opening allows air through, closing it at times, and opening it at other times.

programming note: i'll be away from the forum for a few days taking care of family business. best regards everyone.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> ... you could retain the ventilation advantage by stapling a screen over that top opening, and since the foragers won't be depositing pollen up there it's not likely they will brood in the top.


Good point, SP. Currently all my production colonies have screened bottom boards and screened inner covers. I have found in my location that opening the inner covers up during the main nectar flow does assist in getting things capped.

The Warre colonies I have serve as a good case study in the bees' use of propolis in managing their entrances. They typically do not adjust them during the Summer months but starting in the Fall they will partially occlude some of the openings and then seem to spend the entire Winter opening and closing these openings seemingly ad nauseum, presumably in an effort to get the ventilation right.

Thanks again for the feedback. Hope all goes well with your family business.

Russ


----------



## gww

No impute but just decided to respond so that when I come to the home page it will be highlighted for me if someone else has posted here. That has apparently not happened a few time lately.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> ... just decided to respond ...


Glad you popped-in @gww. You all getting plenty of rain over your way in the lead-up to the Fall flow?


----------



## gww

Just average and getting to be a little low right where I am as far as rain. Enough that my grass is growing and needs cut and it has not been that long. I will know more at the beginning of sept.
Hope you and yours are well.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Just average and getting to be a little low right where I am as far as rain.


Same here- we are all well by God's grace. I sincerely hope the same for you and your crew too.


----------



## Litsinger

Still hot and relatively dry here in Western Kentucky.

I am working with Kentucky State University to finalize a date to begin a year-long _'Assessment of Honeybee Stressors and Apiary Management Practices in Kentucky'_ (see attached).

At it's core it involves sampling five (5) colonies in the yard for (4) times over the next twelve months: this Fall, this coming Spring, this coming Summer and next Fall.

The predominant goal of the study is to assess disease and pesticide prevalence in colonies across the entire breadth of the Commonwealth.

Next steps in the apiary beyond conducting this initial Fall assay will be to assess 72 hour mite drops at the Autumnal Equinox.


----------



## gww

Can't wait to see the end report.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Can't wait to see the end report.


Thanks, Glen.

How's everything coming along in your yard?


----------



## gww

Everything was still alive last time I looked at the entrances. Tis all I know at this point.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

This is one of my favorite times of year as there is a veritable host of pollinators visiting the Fall flowers to see and enjoy. Plenty of butterflies including the last round of monarchs preparing to pupate before heading South for the winter.

Around here, the Joe Pye Weed is already done, the Partridge Pea is still hanging on, the Thouroughwort, Boneset, Swamp Marigold and Blue Mistflower are going strong - and the Snakeroot and Goldenrod are just getting ready to go.

It has been particularly hot and dry around here this Summer- so it might be a rather light Fall flow.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> This is one of my favorite times of year


+1
I really enjoy the late summer bloom as well.

Just last night took a walk with my spouse along a newly created walk trail.

We collected a good bag of Sweet Clover seeds along - then tossed them farther down the trail, so to establish more bee forage.

Overall I am very pleased to see the new suburban development around me - called "smart development". Residential/commercial construction mixed with the ponds and green areas create excellent insect forage. To be honest, I much prefer these setup over the corn/soy fields. Smartly designed suburbia is actually great insect habitat.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Smartly designed suburbia is actually great insect habitat.


I think you're right, Greg. Certainly better than the concrete jungle at least.


----------



## jtgoral

Litsinger said:


> I think you're right, Greg. Certainly better than the concrete jungle at least.


Hmmm....
I read somewhere that they get 200lb of honey from each hive located on Chicago City Hall's roof in the downtown. I saw tons of bees in Grand Park there.


----------



## Litsinger

jtgoral said:


> I read somewhere that they get 200lb of honey from each hive located on Chicago City Hall's roof in the downtown.


Touché - good reminder.


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> Hmmm....
> I read somewhere that they get 200lb of honey from each hive located on Chicago City Hall's roof in the downtown. I saw tons of bees in Grand Park there.


Urban locations can also be good - case by case.
I am slightly concerned of the honey pollution.
But on the other hand even rural locations can be just as polluted (never know).

But in downtown Madison, for example, the late summer forage is non-existent. 

Only spring/early summer forage is available - ornamental trees/locust/basswood. Starting July the downtown beeks have to feed onward - just one practical urban example; this is for real. 
They have no natural parks nearby but mostly concrete and low value plantings indeed.

This urban situation is virtually five miles from me.
At my place I have not seen any dearth yet this year (none is ahead either that I can see).


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Urban locations can also be good - case by case.
> I am slightly concerned of the honey pollution.
> But on the other hand even rural locations can be just as polluted (never know).
> 
> But in downtown Madison, for example, the late summer forage is non-existent.
> 
> Only spring/early summer forage is available - ornamental trees/locust/basswood. Starting July the downtown beeks have to feed onward - just one practical urban example; this is for real.
> They have no natural parks nearby but mostly concrete and low value plantings indeed.
> 
> This urban situation is virtually five miles from me.
> At my place I have not seen any dearth yet this year (none is ahead either that I can see).


Completely independently, but @A Novice corroborated my urban beekeeping observation down to the letter:



> The biggest problem I have is that there is very little nectar available between 15 July and 1 October. This is typical of urban beekeeping. In the spring, there is a lot of nectar from maple trees, flowering crabapples, dandelion, siberian squill, and mostly other tree type sources. After this comes the black locust and finally the basswood.
> 
> However, after basswood, there is very little forage, as the areas that don't have trees are mostly lawns, and lawns don't provide much in the way of blooming plants. As a result, I need to feed my bees.


Urban beekeeping - hives distance between 2 neighbor beekeepers | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


----------



## gww

Russ
I am going to have to look through your pictures some time and then look out side. Had company and tractor problems and so it will have to be later but do hope I don't forget.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Had company and tractor problems...


Hopefully the company were not the cause of your tractor problems...


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Hopefully the company were not the cause of your tractor problems...


Or vice versa!


----------



## Litsinger

Fall flow just getting started around here. The Thoroughwort is still loaded up with all manner of pollinators, the Canada Goldenrod is getting going and the Frost Asters are just starting to bloom. Good foraging activity throughout the day- hopeful it will last awhile and yield more than just a butterscotch smell around the apiary.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Thus he concludes that our management practices to maximize surplus gathering seek to work against the expression of behaviors that might help support mite and disease management.


I was reminded of this talk today when I read the following article espousing 'Darwinian Beekeeping':



A once-obscure type of beekeeping could help save colonies



Dr. Seeley is quoted as saying, _“If you let an animal live naturally, it is able to use its full toolbox and set of skills to survive and reproduce,” says Seeley, who has been studying honeybees in the wild in the Arnot Forest outside of Ithaca, N.Y. “But when you take any kind of animal and you force it to live in a different way, those tools aren’t allowed to function very well.”_

But obviously this approach (i.e. Darwinian Beekeeping) is somewhat at odds with the priorities of commercial beekeeping. To his credit, Dr. Seeley addresses this as well:

_“Rejoice when they swarm, and don’t think of it as a setback,” Seeley says. “In most beekeeping, historically, that would be a failure. You are losing your workforce and honey crop. Be satisfied with a small crop of honey.” _


----------



## Litsinger

The weather is making a steady turn toward Autumn here in the Jackson Purchase.

I finally completed the 72 hour autumnal mite drops (attached). A few random observations:

1. #1907 and #2013 look to be the most promising propagation candidates based on a combination of mite load and production. Found some bald brood in #2013 (photo attached).

2. #2219 (a Cory Stevens queen) has registered zeros the first two quarters- pretty impressive start.

3. Brood rearing is generally progressing later into the season than in recent years- and it appears to be reflected in the higher mite drops for this time of year. Found quite a bit of brood still hatching out, and even found one colony (#2003) that had brood in both the top and second box, backfilling as they go. Been a pretty good Fall flow.

The part I hate the most about conducting mite drops is dutifully washing all the trays, so I decided to try an experiment of installing a sheet of corrugated plastic atop the flutes of the tray- makes it much more efficient (see attached photos).

I put winter rims on the first group of colonies, which provide a means to integrate both top insulation and an inspection port to give the colonies a listen during the Winter (see attached photos). I used to leave the upper entrances open, but they prove to be too costly in my situation.

I pulled approximately 500# of honey off of 15 colonies, so the yard is finally starting to hit its stride. I am still very drawn comb poor, but now have at least a few options when the season starts.

At the expert recommendation of @joebeewhisperer, I ordered 14 Lyson Poly Nucs to overwinter resource colonies in next year- I am at capacity here at the home yard, so it's either set-up remote yard(s) or start selling some stock.


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> I put winter rims on the first group of colonies, which provide a means to integrate both top insulation and an inspection port to give the colonies a listen during the Winter (see attached photos). I used to leave the upper entrances open, but they prove to be too costly in my situation.


Intrigued with these. (if you posted about them before I was asleep...) Looking for some way to use these little flanged caps and something similar to your rims might be it. If I flip one of my feeder shims over it would be almost the same, except luan with a hole instead of screen. Then insulation above.








Fill ports from busted dunage bags. Black plastic which should hold up for years in the sun, tethered cap, and an inner rubber 'door' that the bees will probably chew. Inner hole is 1", outer hole that will need to be plugged years down the road when the caps get lost is 1 1/4"


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> Inner hole is 1"...


William: This is the same size of the holes in my rim, and the bees surprisingly do not chew on the relatively lightweight thermoplastic.

The caps you have look like a great option. The ability to easily 'listen in' on the bees is a helpful feature.


----------



## gww

russ
Did you remove any honey from your warre leave alone hives?
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Did you remove any honey from your warre leave alone hives?


Too much work- how is your season closing out?


----------



## gww

Russ
Think they are all alive and no more honey and I am not sure of hive weights during fall flow and will probably not look. It is getting dry and the grasses are turning brown. I do see some frost astors. I was wrong on the lespedeza as it did bloom and I did for the very first time see a bee on one of the field blooms. I had seem them work the short stuff in my mowed yard but never on the big stuff in the field. I don't know if seeing this was a good sign or bad and desperation. I am thinking things will be ok but spring will tell and I am not going to look cause I am not going to feed whatever I might have found and so am willing to wait to know. The bees look fairly busy but are still also hitting the water hole and so who knows.

You still seem to be pretty heavily involved and pretty involved in the community part of bee keeping and I enjoy your updates and hope all is good in every other way for you and your family as well.
Cheers
gww

ps I did ruin most of my drawn frames due to laziness and only have about 4 supers and am going to leave them on my trailer on their sides and see if exposure is safer then trying to protect them.


----------



## AR1

gww said:


> ps I did ruin most of my drawn frames due to laziness and only have about 4 supers and am going to leave them on my trailer on their sides and see if exposure is safer then trying to protect them.


Separating them so they are not stuck together helps. Moths like the tight spaces.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I do see some frost astors.


GWW:

Great to hear from you. I am glad all is well with you and your family, and we we are doing well by God's grace. Like you, the bees are busy working the frost asters pretty hard now- the air is thick with their aroma in the immediate vicinity of bigger patches of them. It has been one of the better Fall flows in recent memory around here, which ironically may be because it has been so dry- lots of flight hours.

I've read about a lot of folks storing their drawn comb outside- knowing how brittle it gets in the cold, I am a bit reticent to give it a try, but I'll look forward to hearing how it works for you. I do miss you posting on your thread from time-to-time.

Take care of yourself- how's the guitar picking going?


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> GWW:
> I do miss you posting on your thread from time-to-time.
> 
> Take care of yourself- how's the guitar picking going?


Should be cutting some tobacco about now...


----------



## jtgoral

Litsinger said:


> GWW:
> ...
> I've read about a lot of folks storing their drawn comb outside- knowing how brittle it gets in the cold, I am a bit reticent to give it a try,...


So do not shake it, do not press it when it is brittle and you will be OK with the comb. IMO it is an imaginary problem, is it?


----------



## Litsinger

jtgoral said:


> IMO it is an imaginary problem, is it?


You might be right!


----------



## gww

Ar1
Picking and hanging as the leaves on the bottom get a little yellow on them. I might be rushing then as some are drying a little green but not all. It is hanging in a pole barn and goes from perfect in the mornings to crumbly in the afternoon Been trying to save some seed pods though a lot are still bloom and it looks like something gets in the seeds and eats them cause there is always a little hole in the pods. I have found that I don't have to worry about tomato worms on my tomatoes cause they are all on the tobacco. Must have crushed a hundred of them. Thank you russ for indulging us being off topic on your thread. I am not a good picker yet but just keep working at it. I know a lot in my head but I have not been able to get it shared with my hands very well.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I know a lot in my head but I have not been able to get it shared with my hands very well.


Well if it makes you feel any better, you're in good company...


----------



## AR1

gww said:


> Ar1
> Picking and hanging as the leaves on the bottom get a little yellow on them. I might be rushing then as some are drying a little green but not all. It is hanging in a pole barn and goes from perfect in the mornings to crumbly in the afternoon Been trying to save some seed pods though a lot are still bloom and it looks like something gets in the seeds and eats them cause there is always a little hole in the pods. I have found that I don't have to worry about tomato worms on my tomatoes cause they are all on the tobacco. Must have crushed a hundred of them. Thank you russ for indulging us being off topic on your thread. I am not a good picker yet but just keep working at it. I know a lot in my head but I have not been able to get it shared with my hands very well.
> Cheers
> gww


Can be picked as soon as they start to turn. I even pick a lot of green ones since we get early frosts here and frost ruins the leaves. The ones that turn brown on the plant taste best, to me anyway. If it gets crumbly spray with a mist of water a few minutes before you want to handle it, firms right up and can be rolled into a cigar right there.

Lots of the seed pods will get a worm in them, but you should get plenty. 2 or three pods will keep you in seeds for years.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> At the expert recommendation of @joebeewhisperer, I ordered 14 Lyson Poly Nucs to overwinter resource colonies in next year- I am at capacity here at the home yard, so it's either set-up remote yard(s) or start selling some stock.


You're too kind Russ, or very funny.  

I was debating on buying several more Lysons to house colonies now residing in EZ Nucs. As I considered spending more money, to end up with more boxes, I tried to remember back in the spring when decided it was too much work as-is. It occurred to that I know several people hoping to expand that are 25 years younger than me, and thus have energy to build boxes, insulate, sing songs to/about, or whatever TLC is needed to house several more nucs through winter. I texted a few of them and have sales booked (at ridiculous discounts) for most of my extras, at least those which are built out. 

I will probably order 2-3 Lysons in the next week or so to house queen hotel leftovers and whatnot. Also seems like I sorta failed if I don't expand by a smidge, regardless of how many went down the driveway. My net box count is exactly where it was last fall, only two of the 10-frame wooden langs have been replaced by two 10-frame polys. 

I couldn't imagine having 60-80, let alone 200-300 until recently when I spent a couple days with a friend of mine that keeps 2 rows probably 50-60yd/m long. I realized why people keep them in this fashion pretty quickly. I had loaned him the vape rig I got from @johno and he had drilled holes in his boxes the previous day. I was filling cups and he was vaping. He had sold a ton of nucs so it was probably 70-80 hives, mostly 8-frame. Both rows took ~1.5 hours, in no rush. We immediately ordered a rig from @johno for him. There's something to be said for well-laid-out yards. 

That said, I'm looking forward to getting back to knowing a few of my queens and having favorites and such. 

You mentioned bald brood and I saw your pic. I ran into it 2-3 weeks ago with an unmarked (and therefore homemade) queen in a large hive here. I had seen some uncapping before, but this was pretty severe. I took out a few frames with the queen and placed in a nuc. I then immediately dropped in a couple of brood frames from a queen hotel in with a fresh queen laying on them. Came inside to look up causes and found surprisingly little info on it (compared to other woes). Wax moths under the brood was a prevalent one. I went back <2 weeks later and this brood had either emerged, or was dragged out (no obvious corpses). She had laid it back up and the larvae and eggs looked normal. Going to check again in a few days, but didn't see any classic signs of moth larvae. 

Glad you are at a point where you may be forced to sell some stock. That's a classy problem in the TF world. Haven't been in my TF in 8-10 weeks, but traffic is still heavy. We shall see.


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Wax moths under the brood was a prevalent one. I went back <2 weeks later and this brood had either emerged, or was dragged out (no obvious corpses). She had laid it back up and the larvae and eggs looked normal. Going to check again in a few days, but didn't see any classic signs of moth larvae.


@joebeewhisperer:

Great to hear from you as always- glad to hear that your TF colonies are still plugging-away.

I too have heard folks describe bald brood as a symptom of wax moth infestation. While this certainly may be the case in some situations, I do know for certain that it manifests itself even in strong colonies early in the year.

At least in my specific situation, it seems to come along with uncapping/recapping behavior. I still haven't figured-out when they decide to recap and when they decide to leave it open- maybe it is laziness and then again maybe it is because the pupae is at a developmental age that it is viable without it. Still a lot to learn on this score.

I was smiling as I read your comment about expansion- as @gww often reminds me, my initial goal was 6 colonies- and every year I say, 'I don't have the time for any more colonies'... and yet I seem to find both the time and space to stick a few more.

Now that you've got the queen rearing thing down cold, when are you going to start propagating TF stock?

Take care of yourself- and have a great week.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

Bottled some honey this weekend and it sure is good- very bright with a complex flavor and distinctly citrus finish. The batch had an 18.0% moisture content, and like last year it is not overly viscous.

Interesting to see how similar the color and texture profile are compared to last year's honey (new on left old on right)- but I do think this year's vintage is better than last year's.


----------



## Litsinger

With a killing frost in the forecast this week, I am glad to be mainly on the other side of winter preps and frankly looking forward to activities over the next few months that don't involve stinging insects- namely fence work and cutting and splitting firewood for next year.

On the whole it has been another good bee year- I am taking 46 colonies into winter, and of these there are only three that are really suspect at the start- so I am optimistic.

This marks the 3rd year in the apiary with an almost complete absence of any outward signs of DWV- and the small hive beetles have been reduced to a minor inconvenience. I am certainly glad for these developments.

I am also more than a little sobered by the stack of woodenware waiting patiently to be assembled and painted- and I now have enough wax rendered that I need to think about projects involving it.

Provided the wheels don't fall off, next year likely involves further focus on surplus production and the production of nucs to overwinter and employ for resources in the Spring and/or sell early in the year.

Best of success to everyone as you get your colonies set-up for their long winter's nap.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Best of success to everyone as you get your colonies set-up for their long winter's nap.


Wow.
You seem invested now. 😬


----------



## nailbender0259

I think it is time to start to contemplate employees. Looks like another Bob or Kamon in the making.
Good luck with your adventure.


----------



## gww

I looked at your pictures and had flash backs to when I used to work. It was disturbing. Good luck. I am glad things seem to be going well and you are getting to see for your self and compare your experiences to all your reading and study. I do find that a fun process. 
Cheers
gww


----------



## Cloverdale

Litsinger said:


> With a killing frost in the forecast this week, I am glad to be mainly on the other side of winter preps and frankly looking forward to activities over the next few months that don't involve stinging insects- namely fence work and cutting and splitting firewood for next year.
> 
> On the whole it has been another good bee year- I am taking 46 colonies into winter, and of these there are only three that are really suspect at the start- so I am optimistic.
> 
> This marks the 3rd year in the apiary with an almost complete absence of any outward signs of DWV- and the small hive beetles have been reduced to a minor inconvenience. I am certainly glad for these developments.
> 
> I am also more than a little sobered by the stack of woodenware waiting patiently to be assembled and painted- and I now have enough wax rendered that I need to think about projects involving it.
> 
> Provided the wheels don't fall off, next year likely involves further focus on surplus production and the production of nucs to overwinter and employ for resources in the Spring and/or sell early in the year.
> 
> Best of success to everyone as you get your colonies set-up for their long winter's nap.
> View attachment 71511
> View attachment 71512
> View attachment 71513


I feel faint just looking at all that work….


----------



## William Bagwell

Cloverdale said:


> I feel faint just looking at all that work….


I ain't scared of hard work, can lay down right beside it and take a nap 

Well normally, think I would stay awake wondering just what sort of bee keeping equipment came from Grainger? Yes, likely just a recycled box...


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> You seem invested now.


I am well on my way to bring committed.


----------



## Litsinger

nailbender0259 said:


> Good luck with your adventure.


Ray:

Thank you very much for your kind words- both Kamon and Bob are rock stars who are receiving well-deserved recognition- I just like talking bees.

How is your season winding-down? Are you contemplating making any adjustments to help you continue on the path of treatment-free?


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> It was disturbing.


This is hilarious. The reality is I have you to thank for all this- you're the one who egged me on! 

How are things closing out in your little corner of the Show-Me State?


----------



## Litsinger

Cloverdale said:


> I feel faint just looking at all that work…


Deb:

I am glad to see you posting here and on Bee-L again- sorry to hear about your hive woes...

What are your bee plans for next year?


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> ... just what sort of bee keeping equipment came from Grainger?


Quite observant! That box is full of 5D nails for assembling boxes- it is indeed reused box.

How is your season wrapping-up?


----------



## gww

Russ


Litsinger said:


> How are things closing out in your little corner of the Show-Me State?


It's a secret, I will reveal the answer sometime in march.
Cheers
gww

Ps, The above answer seemed more intelligent sounding then I don't know. 6 now and time will tell.


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> It's a secret, I will reveal the answer sometime in march.


There's still time to get the hive tool out... But I also have several (7 Warres to be exact) that are also waiting for an April reveal.


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> How is your season wrapping-up?


Currently at nine hives, (four split to eight, plus two swarms [in spite of the splits!] plus one package, minus two summer losses) eight are strong. Most have had a thermal treatment at some point this year, so still chemical free but no where close to TF this year. Hope to have more than four next spring! Getting close to retirement and want to have every box full next fall for the following spring...


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> ... still chemical free but no where close to TF this year.


Cool. Are you still recording mite fall figures? Seeing any patterns emerge?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I also have several (*7 Warres to be exact) that are also waiting for an April reveal.*


Will be waiting!


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Will be waiting!


They are consistently among the best survival amongst all the colonies in the yard.


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> Cool. Are you still recording mite fall figures? Seeing any patterns emerge?


Yes, just not for an entire month as I did in 2020. Highly variable, 24 hour counts ranged from zero to 63!

Plan to start in July instead of August next year so I can get the ones that need a treatment done in time. Real life gets in the way too often and thermal requires high ambient temps.


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> Real life gets in the way too often...


Man, how I can identify with this...


----------



## drummerboy

"Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans" - John Lennon

35F today, but finally got some sunshine and lighter winds. Took advantage and added insulation above all hives....only 1 of 6 took any notice with bees flying out.

Lifting the lids; There was noticeable heat rising, along with that wonderful scent of an active colony of honeybees in all of them . 

The pacing schedule really sets in now as I won't do any other checking until February.


----------



## Litsinger

drummerboy said:


> "Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans" - John Lennon


There's a lot of truth in that statement!


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Dr. Potter came by today and we completed this assay- it involved pulling a frame or two per colony with open brood and collecting two cups of nurse bees- one cup goes into a live bee shipping container to be overnighted to Beltsville and one cup goes in an alcohol wash.


Today, I received the first of two reports from the USDA sampling done this Summer. To rehash, it involved collecting samples of live bees and the contents of recently opened brood cells from eight colonies to test for various pests and pathogens.

The first report details varroa level and Nosema spore count (attached).

The results are interesting because it not only gives you the results from your apiary but then also shows your results in the context of the national average.

The second report, due in a couple of months will deal with viral and bacterial evaluations.


----------



## squarepeg

that's outstanding russ. 1.7mites/100 bees is really good off treatments. do recall if the 8 colonies sampled were taking somewhat of a brood break august 1?


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> ... taking somewhat of a brood break august 1?


Definitely- very little capped brood. While somewhat subjective without measurements, I expect our summer dearth (and thereby cessation of brood rearing) was longer than typical this year due to lower than average precipitation through the latter part of the Summer.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> *Definitely- very little capped brood. *While somewhat subjective without measurements, *I expect our summer dearth (and thereby cessation of brood rearing)* was longer than typical this year due to lower than average precipitation through the latter part of the Summer.


This pattern, in general - maybe what is helping locally in KY - the mid-summer natural brood-break (for the bees that actually do it).

While having colder/longer winter here - we do NOT have a mid-summer break. Lots of my bees are still having capped brood (as of last weekend).
This is not really great and not really a good seasonal trait here - to still be brooding.
This amounts to a very long, non-stop brood-rearing season - March through October here. Naturally, this is a good mite-breading situation that we have up here.


----------



## jtgoral

GregB said:


> ...
> While having colder/longer winter here - we do NOT have a mid-summer break. Lots of my bees are still having capped brood (as of last weekend).
> This is not really great and not really a good seasonal trait here - to still be brooding.
> This amounts to a very long, non-stop brood-rearing season - March through October here. Naturally, this is a good mite-breading situation that we have up here.


This is IMO great. You will have more winter bees and your colonies will survive winter if there are no mites....


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Naturally, this is a good mite-breading situation that we have up here.


Thanks, Greg. You are not doubt right that the brood break does help a great deal.

I wonder if Mother Nature were allowed to have her way in your region if a specific ecotype might emerge that throttled brood rearing to an extent that allowed it to optimize foraging force while still working to keep varroa growth in check.

Seems there is still a lot to learn about the biology, behavior and individual / social disease-mitigating strategies of these amazing insects!


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> This is IMO great. You will have more winter bees and your colonies will survive winter *if there are no mites....*


IF there are no mites.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thanks, Greg. You are not doubt right that the brood break does help a great deal.
> *
> I wonder if Mother Nature were allowed to have her way in your region if a specific ecotype might emerge that throttled brood rearing to an extent that allowed it to optimize foraging force while still working to keep varroa growth in check.*
> 
> Seems there is still a lot to learn about the biology, behavior and individual / social disease-mitigating strategies of these amazing insects!


I know Roland here (just a couple counties over) has hard time believing me - that my bees brood into October. His shut down in early September the latest I heard. 

Well, this is what I have with my bees.
I need a complete audit over the coming weekend, luck willing.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Well, this is what I have with my bees.


Do you see any differences in brooding between the survivor stock progeny versus the local swarm stock?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Do you see any differences in brooding between the survivor stock progeny versus the local swarm stock?


I don't really have any local stock, Russ.
The local stock here is undefined - my usual rant.

What I do have going into the winter 22/23:
#1 - lineage of my original VSH mother (including the oldie herself)
#2 - lineage of a random Carni-like queen (including herself)
#3 - brand new VSH queen - 1-st winter testing

Of course, I have a variety of mating setups and outcomes - from the #1 and #2 both.
Even the F1's are noticeably different within the cohort.
And the F2s are even more variable.

When I get to do the complete audit across all of the 28 units, it will be interesting (including the equipment permutations).


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> #3 - brand new VSH queen - 1-st winter testing


IMO 1 queen is not a test
4 may be a test 6 even better.
too much variance in queens today, that one buys.

1 is a dart , maybe will not stick and be on the floor.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> IMO 1 queen is not a test
> 4 may be a test 6 even better.
> too much variance in queens today, that one buys.
> 
> 1 is a dart , maybe will not stick and be on the floor.
> 
> GG


Even one is testing.
Remember - she is one of several queens - side-by-side.
She in a race - racing along with the #1/#2 lineages.
We'll see how she will do.

For now, it will be - is she about the same as the others OR is she standing out of the bunch in some way (bad or good).

One mistake I did - should have made few daughters of her (VSH lineage #2) - slow thinking on my part (blew it until it was too late). Fingers crossed - she makes it OK to spring.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> Even one is testing.
> Remember - she is one of several queens - side-by-side.
> She in a race - racing along with the #1/#2 lineages.
> We'll see how she will do.
> 
> For now, it will be - is she about the same as the others OR is she standing out of the bunch in some way (bad or good).
> 
> One mistake I did - should have made few daughters of her (VSH lineage #2) - slow thinking on my part (blew it until it was too late). Fingers crossed - she makes it OK to spring.


I have ordered 4 sisters in the past and they were like different races. Wildly different.
I usually order 4 if I order, pick the best 2 to get daughters from. I tend to see a big differance in poorest to best in the same order, Not sure if shipping, open mating or what the deal is.

good luck with her.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> I don't really have any local stock, Russ.


My apologies, Greg. I was imprecise in my word usage.

I was simply curious if you had noticed any different brood patterns between the survivor stock progeny and the random stock you have hived locally.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> *I have ordered 4 sisters in the past and they were like different races. Wildly different.*
> I usually order 4 if I order, pick the best 2 to get daughters from. I tend to see a big differance in poorest to best in the same order, Not sure if shipping, open mating or what the deal is.
> 
> good luck with her.
> 
> GG


Sure.
This new one I got - she was a gift from a TF breeder, a friend.

He knows I am dirt cheap. LOL
After I said I was going to be taking his old queen into the 3rd winter - he just gave me this one to try and see - a new lineage for him.

But also, I consistently report back to him about his lineage that I have.
I am straight forward - I say what it is - he appreciates that.

Most people take the queens, and you never hear back from them - not bad, not good, nothing. Not exactly a desired outcome for a queen breeder.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> My apologies, Greg. I was imprecise in my word usage.
> 
> I was simply curious if you had noticed any different brood patterns* between the survivor stock progeny and the random stock *you have hived locally.


That what I will see and will document.
I got the originator and three (3) F1's of the random stock.
Sold some random F1's too - given an opportunity.

These random F1 (in the ideal outcome) - should combine the general Carni-like traits and some mite-resistance thru the mating (mated close to my VSH yard). Will see.

At least one of the random F1 daughters looks black as her mother, produces dark bees AND behaves like the VSH lineage - rather alert and somewhat feisty (I hope she mated the VSH drones).

In my general incline to collect things (junk hoarder) - I too like to keep all the various queens to myself - just for the hack of it. LOL
Hate selling them off.
Hard for me to sell the collectible items.


----------



## squarepeg

Litsinger said:


> Definitely- very little capped brood...


smart bees. if brood breaking that makes your low mite count average even more meaningful, in that most of the mites would be phoretic. are you still analyzing biting behavior with your microscope?


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Hard for me to sell the collectible items.


I get that- I kind of grow fond of colonies that offer little else but entertainment or curiosity. Not sure I have what it takes to be a bee breeder.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> are you still analyzing biting behavior with your microscope?


Yup. I've standardized around once annually at the Winter Solstice:



Litsinger said:


> Had the opportunity to evaluate the mites this afternoon. I like conducting mite damage assays in the Winter for three reasons:


----------



## drummerboy

This most recent discussion examples the #1 reason we feed heavily immediately after removing honey supers in mid/late-August. I know, I know, some folks believe feeding is treating. We don't believe that  .

We typically over-winter in 2 mediums, sometimes, but rarely 3. Fall feeding heavily; Our goal is to have every frame left inside for the winter mostly filled with food, the bees will take care of the brood. This is the time of year that 'backfilling' is OK imho.

Feeding heavily immediately after removing supers 'quickly' decreases the amount of brood space available, and results in shrinking the broodnest. As brood (winter bees) hatches out those empty cells are quickly filled with syrup, along with any remaining natural nectar, around here that's primarily goldenrod, which is left entirely for the bees, along with open fed 2/1 syrup, which can last several weeks. We typically start feeding sometime in August and often aren't done until mid-October when all hives are heavy. Then we insulate above and keep our fingers crossed, cuz there's little else we can do for our bees until around February.

The only downside we've endured is the rare late swarm, which can happen if not keeping a close eye on each colonies progress.

On the occasion that I run into a beekeeper or someone interested in the ART, I've been referring them to this particular BS thread for at least a couple years now, so THANKS to ALL for keeping it going!


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Litsinger said:


> With a killing frost in the forecast this week, I am glad to be mainly on the other side of winter preps and frankly looking forward to activities over the next few months that don't involve stinging insects- namely fence work and cutting and splitting firewood for next year.
> 
> On the whole it has been another good bee year- I am taking 46 colonies into winter, and of these there are only three that are really suspect at the start- so I am optimistic.
> 
> This marks the 3rd year in the apiary with an almost complete absence of any outward signs of DWV- and the small hive beetles have been reduced to a minor inconvenience. I am certainly glad for these developments.
> 
> I am also more than a little sobered by the stack of woodenware waiting patiently to be assembled and painted- and I now have enough wax rendered that I need to think about projects involving it.
> 
> Provided the wheels don't fall off, next year likely involves further focus on surplus production and the production of nucs to overwinter and employ for resources in the Spring and/or sell early in the year.
> 
> Best of success to everyone as you get your colonies set-up for their long winter's nap.
> View attachment 71511
> View attachment 71512
> View attachment 71513


I see a stack of Lysons. Me likes. Hope you didn’t get burned alive on shipping. 👍😃


----------



## Litsinger

joebeewhisperer said:


> Hope you didn’t get burned alive on shipping.


I have found that Betterbee will work with you on the pricing if you call them before ordering online. They shipped this order in 10 boxes via FedEX and the shipping cost was less than half of what was generated online.

Good to see you posting on the boards- I was surprised to read that you all had already had some heavy freezing events already.


----------



## jtgoral

Litsinger said:


> I have found that Betterbee will work with you on the pricing if you call them before ordering online. They shipped this order in 10 boxes via FedEX and the shipping cost was less than half of what was generated online.
> 
> Good to see you posting on the boards- I was surprised to read that you all had already had some heavy freezing events already.


I like BlueSky. They always ship the same day you order and prices for Paradise poly hives are good.


----------



## Litsinger

jtgoral said:


> ...Paradise poly hives are good.


I see good reviews on these units- have you used both these and Lyson?


----------



## jtgoral

Litsinger said:


> I see good reviews on these units- have you used both these and Lyson?


I have now BeeMAX and Finish Paradise and prefer the Finish one. In the Paradise the bee space is at the bottom of the box and top is flush with the frame bar. In BeeMAX half of the bee space is at the top and half at the box bottom.

Mechanically the Paradise hive is better designed and easier to separate boxes without pushing poly with the hive tool.

I have no experience with Łysoń, but it is quite popular in my old country, Poland, where the company is located.

I now use a poly deep + poly super to overwinter and old wooden stuff for honey supers and resource colonies.


----------



## Litsinger

Decided to try my hand at a few candles. After reading up on it a bit, I decided to experiment with wick sizes- #3 thru #6. After 2 hours it looks like the bigger wicks are a better option.


----------



## squarepeg

nice!


----------



## drummerboy

Yep, the larger the candle the larger the wick. On our 3-4" wide ones we use up to 3 wicks.

"Tis the season"


----------



## jtgoral

drummerboy said:


> Yep, the larger the candle the larger the wick. On our 3-4" wide ones we use up to 3 wicks.
> 
> "Tis the season"


When you say larger you mean larger diameter?


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I am working with Kentucky State University to finalize a date to begin a year-long _'Assessment of Honeybee Stressors and Apiary Management Practices in Kentucky'_


Looking for a little advice from the hive mind.

Preparing for the first of four (4) assays tomorrow morning and looking to select 5 colonies that are most representative of the resistance profiles developing in the yard. I made a list of all the colonies that were listed as 'large' clusters at the October inspection and then identified the June and September 72 hour mite drops to the right. If you were to pick 5 colonies to be in the year-long study based on these matrices, which ones would you pick?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> If you were to pick* 5 colonies* to be in the year-long study based on these matrices, which ones would you pick?


I would look for desirable trends - where reduction of the cluster size and amount of brood (due to the season) proportionally followed by the mite # *reduction*.

Expressed by ratios

(# Sept)/(# June) < 1.
This gives exactly 5 colonies.

Not (sufficiently) resistant colonies should have.
(# Sept)/(# June) > 1.


----------



## William Bagwell

Eliminate the three that went up would be my first thought. Though #2007 is certainly odd and not representative. Did it possibly re-queen?


----------



## nailbender0259

2007 2013 2207 2213 2104
A little information would be useful, ( were they in honey production, Started this year as nuc, how much honey if any, population during the honey flow ) I know that's more than a little.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> I would look for desirable trends


Good idea, @GregB. Normally, I expect to see the 72 hour mite count to be lower in September than in June. So the normative case would be as you suggest.



William Bagwell said:


> #2007 is certainly odd and not representative.


@William Bagwell - this colony is always an enigma - their mite drops are all over the place and their housekeeping often leaves something to be desired relative to some of the more fastidious colonies - but they have also been one of the strongest coming out of winter the last three years (they are actually a swarm from an 18 series colony). So in my mind, they might be an example of tolerance factors at work.



nailbender0259 said:


> A little information would be useful


@nailbender0259 - good point.

The first two digits represent the year of colony start.

Otherwise, here is some end-of-year surplus data for each:

2013 - 4F Surplus

2104 - 6F Surplus

2120 - 14F Surplus

2003 - 6F Surplus

2103 - 1F Surplus

2007 - 11F Surplus

2207 - First Year

2213 - First Year


----------



## ursa_minor

Litsinger said:


> @William Bagwell - this colony is always an enigma - their mite drops are all over the place and their housekeeping often leaves something to be desired relative to some of the more fastidious colonies - but they have also been one of the strongest coming out of winter the last three years (they are actually a swarm from an 18 series colony). So in my mind, they might be an example of tolerance factors at work.


I am no expert, or even close, but I like #2007 if only for their ability to bring down a count of 223 to 31. Housekeeping sometimes gets left behind when more pressing matters arise .


----------



## Litsinger

ursa_minor said:


> Housekeeping sometimes gets left behind when more pressing matters arise .


You know, my wife and six kiddos say the same thing!


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> Preparing for the first of four (4) assays tomorrow morning and looking to select 5 colonies that are most representative of the resistance profiles developing in the yard.


Completed the assay this morning. We collected approximately 300 bees from each colony, and a comb, honey and pollen sample from each colony as well. The bees were flash frozen in liquid nitrogen and then packed on dry ice.

In discussing the research goals for the project, I learned that there are over 70 apiaries participating from all across the Commonwealth and the predominant goals are two-fold:

1. To assess the nature and degree of bee stressors across the state- i.e. herbicide / pesticide exposure, diseases, nutritional deficiencies, etc.

2. To better understand the genetic background of colonies across the Bluegrass, and how genetic profiles impact observed traits.

The assessment got of to a rough start when we found the queen in the first colony we opened and she promptly took off, landed on my sleeve and then flew for points unknown. I am not certain if she returned, but the colony did appear fairly calm 30 minutes after the inspection so I am hopeful she made it back home .

Ultimately decided to sample 2013, 2104, 2120, 2003 and 2007.

p.s. Saw the first Woolly Bear of the season today- mainly orange.


----------



## Gray Goose

2013
2207
2213

had a larger number first then a smaller one, so the "guess" is the bees reduced it.
would IMO bear checking

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> would IMO bear checking


Indeed. Three things that I know are at work:

1. Uncapping / Recapping

2. Extended brood suppression during dearth 

3. Mite Biting 

There might also be an aspect of tolerance at work as well in colonies such as 2003 and 2007, which tend to have higher drops at the Summer Solstice which would suggest trouble but have managed to thrive each succeeding Spring.


----------



## squarepeg

Litsinger said:


> There might also be an aspect of tolerance at work as well in colonies such as 2003 and 2007, which tend to have higher drops at the Summer Solstice which would suggest trouble but have managed to thrive each succeeding Spring.


on the one hand, high drops are cause for concern because they suggest high infestation...

on the other hand a lot of dead mites in the tray may be an indication that the bees are exhibiting success at eliminating them.

a low tray count could indicate low infestion as well as reduced ability to eliminate.

given the three observed resistant traits listed above, one would expect higher drops around the time the colonies are transitioning into their summer dearth brood break, as more mites become phoretic thereby exposing them to allogrooming and biting.

have you had a chance to correlate your drop counts with the usda assays?


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> ere might also be an aspect of tolerance at work as well in colonies such as 2003 and 2007, which tend to have higher drops at the Summer Solstice which would suggest trouble but have managed to thrive each succeeding Spring.


The final assay is, did they live.


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> have you had a chance to correlate your drop counts with the usda assays?





AR1 said:


> The final assay is, did they live.


Thanks, guys.

The previous USDA study performed this summer was conducted in aggregate, intending to track apiary trends across the Commonwealth and is done once annually as a snapshot. So while there is no doubt worthwhile data which come from it, the study neither tracks trends over time nor breaks down the results by colony.

The most recent study however tracks 5 colonies individually over a complete season to assess the impact of stressors upon the colony.

Ultimately, this is what led us to choose the colonies we did for sampling- all were overwintered colonies, but had different seasonal mite drop profiles.

These samples go to three separate labs for analysis and it was suggested I might have to wait awhile to get any results - but it will be interesting to see what emerges.


----------



## squarepeg

Litsinger said:


> These samples go to three separate labs for analysis and it was suggested I might have to wait awhile to get any results - but it will be interesting to see what emerges.


understood russ, and thanks for explaining it (again).

yes, it will be interesting and hopefully provide some context as to what your seasonal drops are telling you.


----------



## Litsinger

It is finally reliability cool here in the upper south, and we're finally enjoying the heat and glow of the woodstove.

I've turned my attention to preparing woodenware for next season and planting seed - this week I broadcast a mixture of shade-tolerant understory trees including sumac, dogwood, redbud, devil's walking-stick and winterberry along edges of the woodlot. I have found there are two ways to combat invasives- cutting them down and crowding them out.

I am always amused to see how differently the bees cluster in the Warre cavities versus the Lanstroths- except in the very coldest of weather, there are always bees packed in at the entrance of the Warre colonies and it reminds me of how I find colonies in trees overwintering in these parts.

So far, the 'Reference Colony' (2011) has utilized virtually no stores - and it is also interesting to see how despite the fact that the temperature above the cluster largely tracks the ambient environment, the interior relative humidity remains within a fairly tight range.

Next steps include continued assemblage of the Poly boxes from Lyson (very nice) and winter mite drop and mite biting assays near Christmas.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> The first is the idea of 'storage security' and his assertion that certain colony behaviors such as grooming, washboarding and propolis collection/application are only engaged in earnest when the colony has established an adequate surplus in the proper location. Thus he concludes that our management practices to maximize surplus gathering seek to work against the expression of behaviors that might help support mite and disease management.


Interesting interview with Jonathan Powell with the National Beekeeping Trust that builds on this important theme. A couple highlights (with bonus comment about stores below the broodnest a.k.a. the Baskir method):

_Taking the honey from them forces them into an insecure state - then they drop hygienic behaviour. We have been putting the bees into an emergency situation. We hadn’t realised this until now because we hadn’t really studied what bees do without humans. When the bees have enough honey, they turn their attention to the maintenance of the hive and reproduction. It’s important to really study the natural biology of the honey bee at a much deeper level. How would bees choose to live if we weren’t intervening all the time? And what compromises are we making to their health when we do intervene? 

Bees will find a natural balance with their environment, the comb, the brood area and heat distribution. When we start meddling with these, we start affecting the health of the bees. There are just so many beautiful delicate balances. One of the reasons free-living bees typically don’t suffer from Varroa is that simple mechanism of when they have enough honey, their brood space is contracted, and the mites simply do not have that explosive population where they can grow in the cells. So it’s not only the genetics, it’s also the physical characteristics of the hive [that influence bee health]. It’s impossible to separate the physical characteristics of the hive from the biology of the honey bee - they’re really one and the same. _


----------



## Litsinger

A recent discussion about the uncapping/recapping mechanism lead to an e-mail exchange regarding what sort of uncapping/recapping rate we should be looking for based on his observations.

He responded as follows:

_'At this time the best answer is recapping of above 20% for non-infested brood and 40% of infested brood (see Fig 1) in the attached paper.'_


----------



## Litsinger

Latest update from Randy Oliver regarding his resistance breeding program- experimenting with epigenetic factors:

_'As far as my breeding program, last July I had ~30 breeder colonies left in the home yard. I decided to use them, rather than cell builders of different colonies, to rear their own queen cells (in case there were epigenetic or microbiome factors involved. Then I mated those virgins out there in the yard, with the 30 mother colonies supplying nearly all the drones -- so a fair amount of inbreeding, but with 30 mother colonies -- all exhibiting strong mite resistance.

We wound up with ~60 queenright colonies.

Due to the late start, the colonies weren't able to grow much (all still in singles) prior to winter setting in, so we moved them this week to a lower wintering yard. I went through all 60 of them today to arrange frames, check for stores, and give them some protein and fondant for stimulation. 

My hope is that by late March, when we start grafting, that some may exhibit breeder qualities. They will by then have gone for 8 months without treatment, so I will be able to determine which ones demonstrate resistance.'_


----------



## Litsinger

Been waiting on this one for awhile- here is an update from Robyn Underwood on the yet-unpublished results of a blind-study of bee stocks of various geographic origins in Pennsylvania apiaries:






Project started in Summer of 2020 with stocks from 5 different regions: California Producer, Georgia Producer, Indiana Locally-Adapted, Pennsylvania Locally-Adapted and Certified Russian from Indiana - no Indiana Mite Biter stock was included.

All colonies were re-queened in June 2020 and were regularly assessed through April 2022. Here are some of the more salient results in graphical format:


----------



## Snarge

Litsinger said:


> Been waiting on this one for awhile- here is an update from Robyn Underwood on the yet-unpublished results of a blind-study of bee stocks of various geographic origins in Pennsylvania apiaries:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Project started in Summer of 2020 with stocks from 5 different regions: California Producer, Georgia Producer, Indiana Locally-Adapted, Pennsylvania Locally-Adapted and Certified Russian from Indiana - no Indiana Mite Biter stock was included.
> 
> All colonies were re-queened in June 2020 and were regularly assessed through April 2022. Here are some of the more salient results in graphical format:
> 
> View attachment 72059
> 
> 
> View attachment 72060
> 
> 
> View attachment 72061
> 
> 
> View attachment 72062
> 
> 
> View attachment 72063
> 
> 
> View attachment 72064


Thank you to Robyn Marie Underwood!

My takes:

1- the study is ALMOST significant (her words verbatim). 

2- there is a huge lack of research students because they are busy in classes

3- lanternfly honey is smoky-tasting with an aftertaste and comes from poop (her words). Sounds yummy…

But all very interesting. I’m looking forward to the microbiome study next year on the biome in bee bread.


----------



## Gray Goose

interesting study.
looks like the Russians did well.

wonder if the same study done in Ca would yield different results.
also would be nice to see year 2 and 3 to see if adaption happens or dead out.

GG


----------



## AR1

Gray Goose said:


> interesting study.
> looks like the Russians did well.
> 
> wonder if the same study done in Ca would yield different results.
> also would be nice to see year 2 and 3 to see if adaption happens or dead out.
> 
> GG


The viral load results were interesting. Be good to see it all when all the results are finally tabulated. As she said several times, these are preliminary, without numbers from all the hives.


----------



## Litsinger

Snarge said:


> ... the study is ALMOST significant ...





AR1 said:


> As she said several times, these are preliminary, without numbers from all the hives.


I understand that the only data that is not statistically relevant yet are the colony-level viral and gene expression results. All the other data (including the individual bee viral expression results) are complete.

It will be interesting to see how the reciprocal results out of Indiana will compare.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> It will be interesting to see how the reciprocal results out of Indiana will compare


From Dr. Harpur:

_'In brief: local seems to do better for honey production and survival. 

Study should be out next year, I hope.'_


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> From Dr. Harpur:
> 
> _'In brief: local seems to do better for honey production and survival.
> 
> Study should be out next year, I hope.'_


So what this I think means, in Ca the Ca bees could perhaps beat the Best bee in this study, but as 3 of 4 were moved ,
what we think we proved is there is a home court advantage.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> what we think we proved is there is a home court advantage.


I think so.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> I think so.


so then the next question in my mind.
how long untill the bees brought in Are Local?
since bees came to the US on boats a couple hundred years ago, seem 100 generation or less.

how long have bees been in KY Russ do you know?

GG


----------



## jtgoral

Gray Goose said:


> so then the next question in my mind.
> how long untill the bees brought in Are Local?
> since bees came to the US on boats a couple hundred years ago, seem 100 generation or less.
> 
> how long have bees been in KY Russ do you know?
> 
> GG


Genetic past, present, and future of the honey bee (Apis mellifera) in the United States of America - Apidologie map has it


----------



## Gray Goose

jtgoral said:


> Genetic past, present, and future of the honey bee (Apis mellifera) in the United States of America - Apidologie map has it


the link for me went not to the data but to a search site

GG


----------



## jtgoral

Gray Goose said:


> the link for me went not to the data but to a search site
> 
> GG


Please try Google search "honey bees history map in USA", it should show up.


----------



## Gray Goose

JT
not really the answer I was looking for.
1700's sure but some change accured for a time with different strains.
then at some point the wild bees had enough critical mass that swarms from keepers had very little impact.
then from that time to the time where we have the resistant strains, like the ones in the Applicias.

thanks anyway

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> how long have bees been in KY Russ do you know?


Based on historical records, I'd suggest that honeybees we're probably endemic to Western Kentucky by the Revolutionary Era, likely descendants of the black bee brought with settlers to Jamestown. For that matter, it looks like your neck of the woods had bees by then too:









Genetic past, present, and future of the honey bee (Apis mellifera) in the United States of America - Apidologie


Humans have domesticated hundreds of animal and plant species for thousands of years. Artwork, archeological finds, recorded accounts, and other primary sources can provide glimpses into the historic management practices used over the course of a given species’ domestication history. Pairing...




link.springer.com


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ... at some point the wild bees had enough critical mass that swarms from keepers had very little impact.
> then from that time to the time where we have the resistant strains, like the ones in the Applicias.


Maybe this is what you are looking for (from the paper above)?

_The available records from 1622 to 1859 mention only two other recorded importations of honey bees to the United States of America until 1859: Mobile, AL (1773) (Oertel 1976b) and Pensacola, FL (1763) (Crane 1999; Pellett 1938). Two additional importations—to Plymouth, MA in the 1630s and Long Island, NY in the 1670s—are implied by historical records; both locations recorded honey bees sooner than would be expected had they moved by natural swarming (Fig. 1). Records suggest that A. m. mellifera was the only subspecies present in North America until the 1850s (Table S1)._

So I think it is safe to say that when European settlers arrived on flatboats during the late 18th century they would have encountered feral AMM.


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> I am taking 46 colonies into winter, and of these there are only three that are really suspect at the start- so I am optimistic.


After two prolonged cold snaps down here, everybody is still in the game, but I've got my eye on two colonies.

The 'Reference Colony' has consumed about 2# of stores so far.


----------



## AR1

What does 'cold snap' mean in your context?


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> What does 'cold snap' mean in your context?


A week or more with contiguous nighttime lows in the teens or below.


----------



## Litsinger

If you haven't seen it already, Dr. David Tarpy's recent reboot of his 'Queen Issues' talk at WAS is really good:






In particular:

1. At 25:00 he revisits the question of queen versus colony issues / traits - the classic 'queen swapping' experiment.

2. At 30:00 he presents interesting findings of 'drone layers' supplied to their lab by participating beekeepers.

3. At 39:00 he outlines the stages of collective decision making surrounding supersedure.

4. At 55:00 he discusses queen quality in the context of 'natural' versus 'artificial'.


----------



## Litsinger

Took the opportunity to put some candles together last night - I have a new found respect for folks that make handmade candles - it is a lot of work!

I thankfully had some great helpers, and our system worked pretty well once we got into production.

We experimented with 9 different essential oils- peppermint, lemon, lavender, frankincense, eucalyptus, rosemary, cinnamon, cedarwood and tea tree based on some research that suggested that these scents (among others) play nice with beeswax.

Going to have to figure out how to reduce the cost of inputs- have about $7 - $8 tied up in each one and that's assuming that the wax and my time are 'free'.

Still a fun experiment - my hat's off to those who regularly make candles - quite a skill and art to it.


----------



## nailbender0259

Those look like good Christmas gifts.

It's good to see you are spending time with the important people in your life.


----------



## AR1

My wife would kill me if I got that much wax on the stovetop!


----------



## Tigger19687

Litsinger said:


> Took the opportunity to put some candles together last night - I have a new found respect for folks that make handmade candles - it is a lot of work!
> 
> I thankfully had some great helpers, and our system worked pretty well once we got into production.
> 
> We experimented with 9 different essential oils- peppermint, lemon, lavender, frankincense, eucalyptus, rosemary, cinnamon, cedarwood and tea tree based on some research that suggested that these scents (among others) play nice with beeswax.
> 
> Going to have to figure out how to reduce the cost of inputs- have about $7 - $8 tied up in each one and that's assuming that the wax and my time are 'free'.
> 
> Still a fun experiment - my hat's off to those who regularly make candles - quite a skill and art to it.


Candles are not as easy as people think. It's all about the Wick, wick size, burn rate, container (which also has to be correct for the wick), hot throw, cold throw melt burn off. When mixing scents (FO or EO) you need to use the correct amount... too much and you ooze... EO has to be a safe amount.
Candle makers don't usually use a scent with Beeswax, it's all about the Beeswax scent that people like the best.

I make soap, have had my biz for years, but I never do candles because it isn't easy. Anyone that says it is isn't doing it right - not including beeswax candles with no additives.

I hope you tested out the candles.

Not saying you did anything wrong or bashing you at all, just clarifying to others that it isn't easy


----------



## Litsinger

nailbender0259 said:


> It's good to see you are spending time with the important people in your life.


Thanks, Ray. When all the dust settles, that's what really matters, isn't it. Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> My wife would kill me if I got that much wax on the stovetop!


I get to use it only with grave and solemn oaths that I will clean it to better than I found it... and often find myself with more work than I bargained for...


----------



## Litsinger

Tigger19687 said:


> I hope you tested out the candles.


Thanks, Tigger. We did fortunately have the foresight to do a 10 hour burn test on four different wick sizes. Pretty interesting to see the different burn and melt characteristics from different wicks.

I'm with you- I thought honey extraction was tough until I tried my hand at candles!


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I thought honey extraction was tough until I tried my hand at candles!


While I hate the conventional extraction, I just as well hated candle-making, when I tried it
Also, it felt bad burning my super-duper chem-free clean wax.

Maybe some medicinal salves based on wax/propolis are easier to do?

Also - home-made deodorant! 
There are some recipes online for those - look pretty easy.

But then who needs deodorant when working from home?
I sure don't. LOL


----------



## Litsinger

In the latest Kentucky _BeeLines_ publication, Dr. Brock Harpur put out a call for genetic samples from across the US to complete a genetic profile of the nation's stock- I am thrilled to see him taking this on. I'd encourage anyone who's interested to contact him- the details are below:

... Harpur and Andrew Patterson of the University of Georgia have funds to sequence 100-200 colonies from each state. The goal is to quantify genetic diversity of bees across the country, search for unique genotypes, and find out where unwanted genotypes may have spread or have the potential to spread. 

“We're hoping to get samples of honey bee workers from colonies representative of local stocks in your area,” Harpur said. He said they seek feral colonies, colonies from long-established bee yards or breeding operations, or colonies from local breeders. They have plenty of samples from major breeding operations around the country, so they don't need samples from new packages sourced from outside your state. 

Harpur encourages applicants to ask if they think their samples might work. If your samples match those criteria, Harpur and Patterson ask for a tube of bees in alcohol sent to the lab at Purdue in Indiana. The bees should be collected from inside the colony. 

“For any interested, please email me and I can send an example and some advice on collection in a follow-up email,” Harpur said. His direct email is [email protected] and he can also be reached at [email protected].

Submitters should pay shipping and fill out some information about your samples (latitude/longitude, source of colonies, etc.) in the sampling sheet. “You'll receive a report on your samples at the end of the experiment. If you are uncertain if you match those criteria (or if you do not), let me know what you've got and maybe we can work them in,” he said.


----------



## Litsinger

Here is a great talk that just dropped from Grace McCormack from this year's National Honey Show:






Grace first entered the apicultural spotlight in 2015 with research confirming that a significant majority of the genetics in Ireland are AMM.

Following this study, her team has spent the last seven years identifying and tracking feral colonies across Ireland.

Currently, they are tracking +/- 500 colonies. Of the 76 colonies first identified in 2016, 14 are still alive.

They have also evaluated these colonies for factors which confer survival- identifying that these colonies in general exhibit very little uncapping, but demonstrate significant grooming with many colonies exhibiting 60%+ mite damage.

She classifies these populations as 'tolerant' rather than 'resistant'.

Based on the research, Grace offers two themes that were especially insightful to me:

1. A Vision for Resilient Populations: 28:00 - 33:00

2. Adaptation at the Population Level: 46:15 - 50:30

She is unequivocal in her belief that local bees are best- stating near the end that, _'Brother Adam was unfortunately wrong in a lot of what he said...' _With the implication being that exotic bees and subspecies hybridization having an ultimately deleterious impact on bee populations.

Merry Christmas to one and all. I sincerely hope that your year to come is full to overflowing with God's richest blessings and that 2023 is a banner year in your bee operations.


----------



## jtgoral

Litsinger said:


> ...
> 
> Currently, they are tracking +/- 500 colonies. Of the 76 colonies first identified in 2106, 14 are still alive.
> 
> ....


2106?. Are you sure?  It looks like an increase to me.


----------



## Litsinger

jtgoral said:


> Are you sure?


Thanks for the assist, JT.

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Russ


----------



## jtgoral

Litsinger said:


> Thanks for the assist, JT.
> 
> Merry Christmas to you and your family.
> 
> Russ


Same to you 😇


----------



## AR1

Very interesting talk. Obviously a gathering of 'true believers', but that's Okay.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Obviously a gathering of 'true believers'


It is Christmastime after all .

In seriousness, what is/are your chief concern(s) with the presentation? I'd be interested to know.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> It is Christmastime after all .
> 
> In seriousness, what is/are your chief concern(s) with the presentation? I'd be interested to know.


It's the same thought that bolsters racism. Barely a hint that there might be some benefit of a wider gene pool.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Barely a hint that there might be some benefit of a wider gene pool.


Not too sure about that- she talks at length about hybrid vigor.

I think the bigger picture is an appeal for local adaptation- to allow a population to develop traits that confer an advantage in the unique environment they occupy.

Brother Adam brilliantly demonstrated for us the potential of controlled crosses of the subspecies - what this approach does not account for is the results of uncontrolled hybrid pairings in subsequent generations.

If, as their results show there is a local ecotype that would develop when given the opportunity and that this ecotype would present increased resilience in it's local area, this seems like a laudable goal.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Not too sure about that- she talks at length about hybrid vigor.


I felt she rather poo-pooed the idea, bringing up hybrid depression every time hybrid vigor was mentioned.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> ... bringing up hybrid depression every time hybrid vigor was mentioned.


The only thing we can count on when there is uncontrolled hybridization is more phenotypic variability in the offspring than in the parents.

This variability might be good (hybrid vigor) and it might be bad (outbreeding depression).

When considering the importation of outside stock from very different bioregions (i.e. Ligustica versus Mellifera) and different management paradigms (TF Feral versus TX Managed), it seems plausible that the net result of widespread genetic importation is a net negative contribution to the genetic landscape, at least from the perspective of local adaptation.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> it seems plausible that the net result of widespread genetic importation is a net negative contribution to the genetic landscape, at least from the perspective of local adaptation.


I had better stop commenting on this topic before I become extremely rude. Sorry to have brought it up.


----------



## Litsinger

From a record low last week to a record high today, it's been a wild start to winter here in the hot corner of Kentucky. 

The colony count in the New Year stands at 44, down two:

#2005 - Starved-Out. Left them with ~12 frames on October 1st but they were bone dry when I opened them up, and no evidence of overt robbing.

As a point of comparison, #2011 has used approximately 4.5# of stores to-date (see attached).

#2117- Queen Failure. I actually watched her crawl out of the hive and fall to the ground. They still had a good cluster, so I shook them out in front of several other colonies.

I also completed the Winter 72 hour mite drop counts (attached) and executed the annual mite biting assay. Some comparison images attached.

Otherwise, we've had some great weather these past few days, and the girls have been busy housecleaning and orienting. Even a bit of evidence of some brood rearing.

Assembled one more hive stand which should put me in a position to comfortably house 60 colonies at the home yard.

How's everyone else's overwintering coming along?


----------



## William Bagwell

Litsinger said:


> How's everyone else's overwintering coming along?


All eight still alive! Two seemed less active that the other six Saturday, intended to take a peek inside those two today. Cloudy, off and on rain so burned brush piles instead. 

And yes, was back up to 11 briefly. In some ways summer losses hurt worse than winter.


----------



## Litsinger

William Bagwell said:


> All eight still alive!


Good for you!



William Bagwell said:


> In some ways summer losses hurt worse than winter.


I'm with you on this- I'm kind of mentally prepared for disappointment in the winter.


----------



## NUBE

Litsinger said:


> How's everyone else's overwintering coming along?


4 into winter, 4 still going fairly strong after that arctic blast. We opened up all 4 hives last Friday. Our favorite is crazy strong and has a frame or two of brood going. Still plenty of resources, but I think we’ll have to keep a close eye on them as the end of February approaches to make sure they don’t starve out right at the winter finish line.

Our only hive in a single deep is looking quite strong. They have a small amount of brood going too and should be fine on resources through the winter. We may throw another box on top of them immediately come March so they don’t get any ideas about swarming before we can graft and split out all the colonies.

Our original package hive is doing well. They’re in a double deep and have good resources remaining. They also have a bit of brood and we saw a worker bee emerging.

Our most tempestuous, and possibly most populous hive going into winter, is a touch concerning. We didn’t see any brood in this one (though there were 3 or 4 frames in the bottom box that we didn’t pull). There are a handful of drones still in this one, and we saw a couple of worker bees with deformed wings. There’s also a ton of dead bees out front of this hive, but they’re still reasonably strong; a good 6/7 frames of bees. We didn’t see the Queen or eggs, though it wasn’t so warm that I felt comfortable leaving frames out of the hive for a long period of time, so we didn’t really check that thoroughly. Hope the queen is okay in this hive. I’m not a huge fan of her offspring, but they’re definitely suitable for making up mating nucs. We’ll also have to make certain the mite situation is rectified prior to spring.

What Kind of equipment are you using for the biter assays Russ? SBB with a slide in tray, or are you just putting in a sticky sheet with screen over it?


----------



## Litsinger

NUBE said:


> What Kind of equipment are you using for the biter assays Russ? SBB with a slide in tray... ?


@NUBE:

Glad you popped-in. Sounds like things are in good shape in your yard. Nice.

For mite drops / assays, I use screened bottom boards with trays. I recently started utilizing a corrugated insert and this makes things much easier. Here is a post with some photos of my set-up:



Litsinger said:


> The part I hate the most about conducting mite drops is dutifully washing all the trays, so I decided to try an experiment of installing a sheet of corrugated plastic atop the flutes of the tray- makes it much more efficient (see attached photos).


Now I simply scrape the bulk of detritus off with a putty knife, wipe the remainder off with a rag and hit them with a light misting of vegetable oil spray. The whole process takes 30 seconds start to finish.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> .............
> How's everyone else's overwintering coming along?


24/28 are still afloat and looking good.
If I have even 20-ish units in April - I will be in pretty frantic mode.
Though I have squirrelled away lots of foam coolers for just the case.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> 24/28 are still afloat and looking good.


Been following your efforts, Greg. The minis seem like an especially beneficial change, and I am moving in the direction of more resource colonies in my own yard in part based on your efforts and reporting. Keep up the good work!


----------



## Litsinger

Great interview with Danny Weaver on the latest Beekeeping Today podcast:






The most intriguing aspect to me is the section from about 19:00 - 22:00 where he discusses research he is conducting with Dr. Jay Evans and team of employing a DWV virus clone with fluorescent reporter gene (i.e. glow-in-the-dark drones) that allows them to evaluate viral replication in candidate stocks. He is hopeful this will take resistance selection from a decade-long process to a 2 - 4 year effort. 

This is the first I have heard of a test for viral resistance- we tend to talk about viral tolerance, so this is a very interesting development to me.

The rest of the interview (especially from 9:00 - 22:00) is good and delves into the history of Weavers, their association with Brother Adam and the Bond effort they painfully experienced.


----------



## AR1

Interesting, his rather blanket statement that his hives don't die of varroa.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Interesting, his rather blanket statement that his hives don't die of varroa.


I'd say there are few folks alive who have lost more colonies to varroa mites than Danny Weaver- so he definitely knows what dying from varroa looks like.


----------



## ursa_minor

Litsinger said:


> How's everyone else's overwintering coming along?


Pretty good, 3 out of 3 still alive. Two with upper vents ( very, very small holes, too small for a bee entrance) and one I am experimenting without an upper vent/entrance, are all still living. Interestingly, not one of the 3 has had the flights of death into the snow. All three have a plastic sheet partially over the frames to increase available moisture for the bees.


----------



## Litsinger

ursa_minor said:


> I am experimenting without an upper vent/entrance...


@ursa_minor:

Glad to read that all is going well for you at the Northern latitudes. I will be curious to read about your thoughts around no upper vent. This is the 2nd winter for me with no upper venting of any kind, and I am cautiously optimistic that this is generally a good approach- at least in my climate.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> @ursa_minor:
> 
> Glad to read that all is going well for you at the Northern latitudes. I will be curious to read about your thoughts around no upper vent. This is the 2nd winter for me with no upper venting of any kind, and I am cautiously optimistic that this is generally a good approach- at least in my climate.


Been doing the 'no upper vent' for several years. Undecided. Some live and some die, and it's hard to know what is cause or effect.


----------



## ursa_minor

Litsinger said:


> I will be curious to read about your thoughts around no upper vent.


I am very new to this beekeeping journey and my results are small and possibly insignificant. But, the first year I had no upper vent all died. But the top of my hives were not where I placed the most insulation the condensation above them was very high, and my mite control was sub par. 

I track the temps when they fly out and the number of winter flights leading to many dead bees outside in the snow. Last year by now the Lang had 5, the Layens deeps had 2 apiece. I also had to remove the shrew screens and scrape off the dead bees clogging it multiple times thru the winter. My goal last year was to have lots of good upper ventilation. 

This year, despite the warm weather I have no bees in the snow. I know this is not a real comparison, but as I move forward I learn. 



AR1 said:


> Been doing the 'no upper vent' for several years. Undecided. Some live and some die, and it's hard to know what is cause or effect.


I totally agree.
I am not so sure it is so much the upper vent, but possibly the moisture available for those bees within the hive itself. The plastic sheets on the frame tops could be helping the situation and possibly the ability to use this moisture to dilute the honey ( much of it canola honey despite my best efforts) is helpful to the bees.


----------



## ursa_minor

I will also add I placed a small cup filled with water and some quilt batting right below the small entrance one sunny wintery day ( Nov. 29/21) and this was their response. Did they use the water just because it was there, or was looking for water why they flew out in the first place. I don't know.


----------



## Gypsi

I'm going thru my hives tomorrow and finding out about how my bees did without an upper vent


----------



## Litsinger

ursa_minor said:


> But the top of my hives were not where I placed the most insulation the condensation above them was very high...


While it may not be universal, it seems based on what I read and observe that the general theme is either:

1. Ventilate to remove moisture or,

2. Insulate to keep the air temperature above the cluster above the dewpoint. 

I'll look forward to see how your results compare.


Gypsi said:


> I'm going thru my hives tomorrow and finding out about how my bees did without an upper vent


@Gypsi:

Good to see you back on the boards. I'll be interested to read about what you find too.


----------



## Gypsi

I did insulate rather heavily above the bees because we had a vicious cold snap come thru for a couple of days. will see tomorrow. Good to be back, I shall vanish again when I go back to work


----------



## drummerboy

We went into winter (zone 3) with 6 colonies, 3 with Italian queens and 3 with Russian queens. All began as splits from our own mutts and re-queened from our own survivors and purchased Russian queens.

Lost one Italian so far, so 5 of 6 are alive and amazingly, still clustered in the bottom boxes (we use all mediums and winter in 2, sometimes 3) with plenty of honey above  . This is our 2nd year using the 'no top' entrance method, plastic sheeting above brood and heavy insulation above, with small vent holes 'above' the insulation. 

Upon short 'peek and feed' inspection a few days ago was surprised to find 'no moisture' anywhere inside the insulation boxes (we use our old Deeps year round as feed boxes or insulation boxes) except for a few drops along edges of the plastic, just like some of the eastern European vids shared by GregB. I consider this discovery a good thing. 

All 5 had between 6 and 8 frames of active bees, still in bottom box. We totally expected to find bees up top and in need of feed, so we're more than surprised and pleased.

In the past when using both top and bottom entrances our insulation above was sometimes frozen stiff with moisture and difficult to remove, not so with no top entrance. 

C'mon April!!! 🐝


----------



## Litsinger

drummerboy said:


> ... small vent holes 'above' the insulation.


Nice update @drummerboy. What are your thoughts about the vents in this location?


----------



## Litsinger

Gypsi said:


> I shall vanish again when I go back to work ...


Well do please pop in once in awhile- that said, I do understand the ever-present effort to maintain work/life balance.


----------



## drummerboy

Litsinger said:


> Nice update @drummerboy. What are your thoughts about the vents in this location?


I 'think' it means that any excessive moisture is able to find a way out, but then - 'thinking' is simply a pastime event for me these days, so TBH - I am not entirely certain.... still pondering  

I'll know more as the season develops as we all will. Presently, I'm in the 'expectant' parent mode as I await Spring. 

As beekeeping goes, Winter is the hardest (most anxious) time of year...for me anyway.


----------



## AR1

drummerboy said:


> ... This is our 2nd year using the 'no top' entrance method, plastic sheeting above brood and heavy insulation above, with small vent holes 'above' the insulation.
> 
> Upon short 'peek and feed' inspection a few days ago was surprised to find 'no moisture' anywhere inside the insulation boxes (we use our old Deeps year round as feed boxes or insulation boxes) except for a few drops along edges of the plastic, just like some of the eastern European vids shared by GregB. I consider this discovery a good thing.
> 
> All 5 had between 6 and 8 frames of active bees, still in bottom box. We totally expected to find bees up top and in need of feed, so we're more than surprised and pleased.
> 
> In the past when using both top and bottom entrances our insulation above was sometimes frozen stiff with moisture and difficult to remove, not so with no top entrance.
> 
> C'mon April!!! 🐝


I have gone back and forth on this method, heavy insulation on top with either a small vent up there, or no vent up top. Undecided. With only a handful of colonies it is hard to see any trends where one looks significantly better/worse than the other. 
I also use a standard deep or medium as the top, filled full with insulation. This area usually becomes very humid but doesn't freeze solid if the bees are in good numbers for the box volume.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> Well do please pop in once in awhile- that said, I do understand the ever-present effort to maintain work/life balance.


Work. Who invented that idea anyway? Cain, that's who. Same guy who invented murder.


----------



## ursa_minor

AR1 said:


> I have gone back and forth on this method, heavy insulation on top with either a small vent up there, or no vent up top.


" 

I have no vent above the insulation, but I do run long Layens deeps with 2.5" followers of rigid styrofoam not fully to the bottom of the hive I do fine that the frost builds up in the extra space and then finds it way to the lid. But it has not frozen any of the insulation.


----------



## Litsinger

drummerboy said:


> 'thinking' is simply a pastime event for me these days...


Better than the alternative, right? 

Thank you for the feedback- I'll be interested to read your thoughts on the matter as you're able to develop more observations and attendant conclusions.


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## Gypsi

I didn't find any humidity in the hive I opened, but I only went to top box, bees are up there unpacking a little honey, seem to be enough bees although they aren't hitting pollen sub which worries me a little. But it is so late there may be pollen. Mite drops look like about 10 a day total. Probably re-treat after work tuesday or on wednesday. I am not treatment free, just oav.


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## Litsinger

Gypsi said:


> Mite drops look like about 10 a day total.


Is this before or after OAV? Is the colony raising any brood yet?


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## Gypsi

After OAV I applied on Tuesday. I don't see pollen going in. Our weather is too temperamental to break all the wax bridges and go into the lower boxes to look. I made sure there were bees


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## Litsinger

Gypsi said:


> After OAV I applied on Tuesday.


I also check Winter mite fall, but it is sans OAV:



Litsinger said:


> I also completed the Winter 72 hour mite drop counts (attached)...


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## drummerboy

AR1 said:


> Work. Who invented that idea anyway? Cain, that's who. Same guy who invented murder.



LOL...I believe it (labor, work, enslavement, indentured servitude, etc) began when some guy (probably a group of guys) proclaimed he/they could 'own the land' simply by proclamation or threat and then proceeded to sell it off over and over and over and over again and again and again etc......AKA; the ROOT of the 'royal scam', where it all began.  

C'mon Spring!

"The land shall not be sold forever; for the land is mine" - Leviticus 25:23


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## Litsinger

If you haven't already, the six part video series that our own @Duck River Honey has with Cory Stevens is well-worth the watch. In particular, video 3 is particularly worthy of the half-hour investment IMHO as Cory not only articulates the rationale for virgin queens, but also lays out a vision for employing VSH stock in one's own operation:


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## Gray Goose

thanks Russ
I watched several.

GG


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