# Unlimited Brood Nest



## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Thank You, MB. That is something that needs to be put in a sticky thread and be required reading for all members, young and old. That is what I have been trying to say, but your literally expertise is much better than mine and I think everyone can understand it the way you wrote it.


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

excellent post


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

With the top deep, do you usually see a honey cap there? how often does a queen fill the other two deeps with brood, capped or eggs? thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Some of the management techniques are to get the queen to lay in the other deeps. Otherwise she may not cross between the boxes. Once you get her used to doing it she does it freely. I've observed she does this more easily in a hive of all mediums because she has to to find room, where with deeps she's less inclined to cross between the boxes. Yes, the top deep often has a honey cap if you run three deeps. But it also often has eggs on the bottom half of the frames, especialy if you "pyramid" up.


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

for me and others, you might need to say what pyrimid up is. natural comb is a upside down pyrimid, so i'm confused there.

talking about getting her to cross, are you wanting her to go up, or is her natural tendency to go down? I have a similar question in 101.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>for me and others, you might need to say what pyrimid up is. natural comb is a upside down pyrimid

I assume you mean the upside down arched shape?

The "pyramid" is the shape of the brood nest after you manipulate. Something like this where E is empty and B is brood H is honey and P is pollen. You start with something like this:

EEEEEEEEEE
HHHHHHHHHH
HPBBBBBBHP

And, in the first step rearrange it something like this:

HHEHEHEHHH
HHEEBBEEHH
HPBBEBBEHP

And then when that has expanded into this:

HHEBBBHEHH
HHBBBBBBHH
HPBBBBBBHP

You add a box and move it up to somethign like this:

EEEBBBHEHH
HHBBEBEBHH
HBEBBBBEBH
PBEBBEBBBP

When that fills in just the brood frames look like a pyramid.

>talking about getting her to cross, are you wanting her to go up, or is her natural tendency to go down?

I want her freely laying in four or even five medium boxes or three deeps. Not up or down. All over.


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## scott_dixon (Apr 29, 2003)

"Everything works if you let it."

I run 3 deeps, no excluder and last year had more honey than I knew what to do with. The bees in these two colonies filled the top two hive bodies with honey. I took the top one off, they got to keep the middle one and they hit thr ground running this year. To some this might not be considered "management", but to me, it's simply living in harmony with the bees. I don't recall seeing an excluder of any type in the last feral hive I saw, short of the thin line of honey the bees themselves will sometimes use to keep her where they want her, but that's natures doing, not mine.


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## jt9610 (Apr 20, 2010)

Hi Michael,

Question about ULBN management and overwintering. In discussion with an experienced beek who uses deeps for brood and mediums for honey. His opinion is the winter cluster won't have enough in a medium and won't cross from one box to the next to get the stores above. Raising bees in cold long winter country, what is your experience? How does the cluster move up when divided into different mediums? 

--Jim


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I've used ULBN since I started eight years ago. In fact, I keep five deeps on every hive that has grown into them year round. I haven't seen any problems with the cluster moving anywhere unless they were brooding. Last year I had one hive build up from a nuc to four deeps. They started somewhere in the middle going into winter, now they are in the top box where there is still capped honey.

I don't know about mediums, but I think Michael will say that it's not a problem since that's what he runs pretty much exclusively.

Toward harvest time in late June, I see the upper two boxes full or nearly full of honey, and some in the third. Last year I had good success with adding an entire deep full of foundation between the bottom two boxes.


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## Growing Boy (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks Micheal.This is the concept i'm baseing my hives on now. Glad I have a name for it.
While it might reduce honey volume it seems, at least in my mind, to lead to stronger, healthier hives. Strong going into winter, strong coming out in the spring. In this climate I was thinking 2 deeps would work but now you've got me thinking again. ****!


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Some of the reading I've done on ULBN. You never rotate the boxes. They let the bees stay in the top in the spring, & work their way down as they fill the top with honey.
Might have been Ross Conrads book.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I don't see ULBN as reducing honey production. With a large unhindered broodnest, you have plenty of bees to work. Plus since I don't really touch any honey in the third deep, I've never had a hive run out of honey. If they're capable of bringing it in (most are if you don't rob them) they should be capable of overwintering without help. If they can't do that, I let them die.

The theory does suggest against rotating the boxes, and it's generally not necessary, but I am a pragmatic.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>I keep five deeps on every hive that has grown into them year round...

Solomon, do you put the top two deeps back on after harvesting, and let them fill them up with the fall flow?


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## Jim Koenig (Dec 18, 2009)

I switched to ULBN 3 summers ago based on MB's advise and some of my own observartions with how the bees struggled to move thru the excluder. I have had a noticable increase in honey production since switching to ULBN.

The first summer (2009) my two hives only expanded into the first medium above the traditional double deep hive bodies, however the last two summers (2010 & 2011) the queen and bees moved the brood nest higher than the first medium and ignored the bottow deep. 
For me this created a shortage of medium honey supers during the heaviest nectar flow. 

Last summer when I noticed this happening I reversed the deep hive bodies and then the queen moved back down to the double deeps and I got my honey supers back.

IMHO the reason it did not happen in '09 was that we had a cool dry summer compared to '10 & '11 when we had record heat and humidity for our region.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

squarepeg said:


> Solomon, do you put the top two deeps back on after harvesting, and let them fill them up with the fall flow?


I put them back but they don't fill. Our fall flow is good for a total of a couple frames in each hive and it usually goes around the brood nest as it contracts. I leave the three bottom boxes alone. Last year, I had one very frugal hive make it through with nearly a whole deep of honey left. Unfortunately it had a lot of problems this whole year and died a few weeks ago.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

wow, sorry to hear about your colony. what protects all that comb in the upper two deeps from moths and shb, is it all the bees in these super strong colonies?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

They're not super strong, mostly average. The bees clean up the comb and maintain it even when they're not using it.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks solomon, that's really interesting. are you going to put an empty box between the bottom two again, and if so do you still pyramid or checkerboard the frames above that?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Usually I do some pyramiding, but a full box of foundation is for really exceptional hives.

I try to add two frames in each brood box every spring.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Question about ULBN management and overwintering. In discussion with an experienced beek who uses deeps for brood and mediums for honey. His opinion is the winter cluster won't have enough in a medium and won't cross from one box to the next to get the stores above. Raising bees in cold long winter country, what is your experience? How does the cluster move up when divided into different mediums? 

Not sure how I missed this one... but in my experience with all mediums they move quite easily between boxes and don't hesitate to cross from one box to the next, where with deeps they often do. But that's more the queen laying brood really. If you have a winter cluster with honey overhead they will easily cross from no food to food.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

micheal, is it important to wait until the bees are obviously making new wax, which i think starts after the prime time for reproductive swarming, to insert a foundationless frame in the broodnest?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It is important that there are enough bees to quickly fill the gap with festooing bees before you put a frame in the gap. If there isn't then push them back together and wait.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks michael. i had to look up 'festooning'. i think what you mean is that the sides of the frames in the gap have more than one layer of bees on them, i.e. there should be layers of bees hanging off of each other in the gap? i'm guessing that means there is a surplus of bees in the hive beyond what is needed to cover the brood, that surplus is available for wax making.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jt9610 said:


> In discussion with an experienced beek who uses deeps for brood and mediums for honey. His opinion is the winter cluster won't have enough in a medium and won't cross from one box to the next to get the stores above. Raising bees in cold long winter country, what is your experience? How does the cluster move up when divided into different mediums?
> 
> --Jim


I've run my bees with an ULBN since I started keeping bees almost 40 years ago...tow deeps and a medium, three deeps, three to five mediums...all sorts of similar configurations. I keep my bees in northern Vermont...cold, long winter country. I can assure you the bees will cross from one box to another to get to the stores above.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>i think what you mean is that the sides of the frames in the gap have more than one layer of bees on them, i.e. there should be layers of bees hanging off of each other in the gap?

You remove a frame and make the gap where you intend to put the frame. The space should fill quickly with festooning bees (bees hanging off one another) which indicates, as you say, a surplus of bees available to keep the brood warm on each side of the gap while drawing wax.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

that makes good sense. i want to try putting foundationless frames in for brood this year, not only to expand the broodnest, but to try and get some queen cells made as well. i am also considering changing some hives over to all mediums. thanks again mb, i enjoyed listening to your podcast, and i'll be ordering the hard back version of your book.


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## daddydon5 (Mar 21, 2011)

I started my hives last May and they seem to be doing quite well so far. I also have used the unlimited brood nest and like the concept very much. From a practical perspective, how does that work with harvesting honey? I have two hives in my back yard and both are made up of four mediums right now. While I noticed more honey stores than brood in the fourth box, what impact does using the unlimited brood nest have on honey storage and extraction. I did not harvest anything this year, which contributes to my curiousity. It's a pretty basic question that I am asking, but one that I am curious about since I am so new at beekeeping. Thanks, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

An ULBN will usually result in stronger colonies meaning they're better able to take advantage of what flows materialize, and you'll have less swarming than trying to restrict a queen to a limited brood nest. Swarm management is a must with these strong colonies but the rewards in surplus honey are great. 

I believe that we rarely see queens reach their full potential because they are restricted. My most powerful colonies often reach 15 frames of brood...try that with a double deep or 3-4 mediums with an excluder on top.


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## mustrum (Dec 11, 2011)

The "pyramid" is the shape of the brood nest after you manipulate. Something like this where E is empty and B is brood H is honey and P is pollen. You start with something like this:
EEEEEEEEEE
HHHHHHHHHH
HPBBBBBBHP
And said:


> Michael, just a couple questions...this seems like something I could do this year to practice swarm prevention, since I have essentially no drawn comb or other resources to use to checkerboard.
> 
> I was thinking I could use this ULBN approach this spring, then after the main flow is over I could make some nucs or splits, let them keep the stores from our 2nd flow in the fall, then sell them, retaining most of the comb they have drawn out giving me better resources for next year...
> 
> Would it be possible to use this approach and combine it with the opening up of the broodnest approach, and rather than use empty frames or empty drawn comb where you have indicated, could I use frames with foundation instead? and if so, could you lay it out for me in a 3 deep style like you have above in the 4 medium style?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you insist on foundation it can work somewhat. Empty frames work much better at heading off swarming as they give unemployed nurse bees a job: drawing comb, and that space of festooning bees is the natural way to do that without a wall between the two combs. They will draw the foundation, but not as quickly...


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