# People, a top bar hive?



## WI-beek

Not sure why all the frustration with the tbh. If someone just wants to have a couple hives to gather a little honey and have some pollenators around the why not have a couple tbh's. It can easily cost $300 or more for a full lang setup. For less than a hundred someone can have two or three tbh's.

I would say though that once someone goes beyond a small hobby they should move to langs if they are not using them.

Thats my opinion anyway.


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## Beethinking

Oh my.

Matt


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## honeyman46408

> What is this, a revolution? A revelation. No, it's a de-evolution.


No it is a way some folks choose to keep bees, I for one don`t have a TBH yet but have thought about it :scratch: I think it would bee another interesting way to enjoy the *HOBBY*


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## beenovice

AllTek Bee Removal LLC said:


> We could harvest honey without destroying a colony. We could inspect for disease without destroying a hive. We could move one frame of resources from one hive to maintain another. We could increase our hive number without relying on swarming.


Actually everything you said can be done with TBH. I think you don't know what TBH is ? Do you ? 
There is no need to kill a colony to harvest, you can inspect it easily, you can move resources from one hive to another, etc.....so I don't know where you are getting with all this ? 
I think you mixed something up and made kind of a fool of yourself really...

As far as equipment readily available. Well building TBH is much cheaper and take less time than building or buying LR. 
I have 5 hives for the price of one. I harvest as much as other beekeepers who use standard beehives.

For stationary beekeeping in my climate TBHs are superior to standard hives in every possible way.


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## Adam Foster Collins

I think AllTek makes a solid point. It would seem that a great advancement in beekeeping technology is being ignored by more and more people in favor of a technology it replaced.

And that's just what is happening.

But there are two real driving reasons for it:

First - Money. That great technology you're talking about has evolved into a fairly expensive set of equipment. Because of the human need for money, there is also a fair amount of vested interest in existing technology, and thus a certain amount of misinformation designed to protect that industry. There's nothing evil about it, it's a natural part of human behavior.

Second - CCD. With the recent crisis surrounding the Honey bee, people are rightly second-guessing just about every thing that has been long been accepted as "the best" way of doing things.

Whenever there is an established industry, full of products that are all purported to be the latest and greatest in science and technology, it becomes more and more difficult to wade through all the 'expertise' and figure out anything for yourself.

I used to keep bees when I was a kid with my Grandfather. I used to read his old books, and I thought I had a decent grip on what keeping bees required. Then I recently decide to get back into it, as I heard of the decline of the bee. 

Then, as I begin to look into the subject, I find that, like so many other things, it's become filled with plastic and styrofoam and substitutes. In light of CCD, I find that I just look at the whole thing as 'suspect' somehow. I'm questioning everything again.

I guess I just feel like the realm of top bar hives - because the industry hasn't really adjusted to selling it to us - has still got some of that old spirit left in it. Something down-to-earth; built-in-the-barn; I don't know - I guess you could say 'natural'.

And with the bees in the mess they're in, it seems like it's a good time to question the last hundred years of beekeeping, and to re-evaluate which steps where "breakthroughs"...

...and which were breakdowns.

Adam


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## bigbearomaha

First of all, not everyone has the same goals or intentions. Not everyone is out to be a record honey producer. For some, honey production is secondary, if not further down the interest chain.

There is no rule or law stating that to be a beekeeper you must do everything the same way as everyone else. 

I haven't figured out yet if you're just here to stir the pot or really have such closed thinking. 

As has been suggested above, some would say there are several benefits top bar hives offer over Langs. Again, depending on their expectations.

Have fun using your langs, Hope you have a good year.

Big Bear


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## Adrian Quiney WI

I now have four Langs, but I would not have started beekeeping if I had not discovered TBH's. The start up cost of Langs would have stopped me.
TBH's can be an end in themselves, an alternative, or an adjunct to conventional beekeeping. 
Even though conventional wisdom says Langstroth hives make more honey this takes time when starting from scratch. This year starting my four langs I did a lot of beekeeping and harvested no honey. Last year I did less work and harvested over twenty pounds of honey from my TBH. Adrian.


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## Michael Bush

The only real down side to a top bar hive is you have to deal with it more frequently in order to manage it efficiently. But a new bee can't keep their hands off of it anyway, and if it's in your backyard, it's not much trouble. I wouldn't recommend them for an outyard, but they provide all the benefits of a movable comb hive with no lifting and, if you are handy and have some materials around, little work and no money.

"The object of a Top Bar Hive (TBH) is to be easy and cheap to construct, easy to work and having natural sized cells. A Kenya style (sloped sides) is so that the combs are more naturally strong and less likely to break and collapse when they are full of honey. This hive worked very well with no comb collapses. The small combs are easy to handle and not nearly as fragile as large free hanging combs. The pictures are, from left to right"

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm

Most of the above are also available in a long hive, including the not lifting, but it's not easy or cheap to construct as it requires more precise work. With foundationless frames in a Langstroth hive you'll get all of the above except the avoidance of lifting.


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## Barry

I consider the original post an example of trolling. _"Do not feed the trolls"
_
I would delete such a post, but there are already 9 replies and it stayed civil.


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## Adam Foster Collins

While it may have the potential to be contentious, I do think that it's a good thing to challenge all trends, as well as accepted norms and wisdoms. The greatest benefit of a forum like this is the sharing of perspectives across geography, preference and philosophy.

As for 'trolling', there's really no need for anyone to get baited into getting upset. It happens too often, and kills the benefit of the discussion.

Adam


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## beenovice

One thing is challenging a trend....

OP is full of "conclusion" that have nothing to do with TBHs really - such as : 

- destroying colony to harvest
- unable to inspect
- unable to "share resources" with other hives

It is pretty obvious that AllTek have absolutely no idea what and/or how TBH looks. I think he has mistaken TBH for fixed comb hive. If not, well, then troll it is indeed.....


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## AllTek

What I see as the overwhelming drive toward the embrace of a TBH is cost. I agree that this is a huge consideration. Getting started in beekeeping is very difficult even for the truly dedicated. You have the cost of the bee suit, smoker, tops, bottoms, boxes and frames. The bees themselves are another expense. The last time I bought a package the price was climbing over $60 a 3lb package. And, of course, there is no guarantee of success. So I see the TBH as a low cost alternative to get initiated into the world of beekeeping. I also see advocates of this system as having the same goals as mine- getting new people interested and involved in keeping bees. 
Along those lines let me tell you how I became involved in beekeeping as a business, a sort of what not to do. When I first started beekeeping for profit I bought out a retiring beekeeper who ran 7 and 5/8 inch boxes exclusively. This was a calculated decision as I had read somewhere that the great Roger Morse, whom I respected and respect deeply, had done some research on optimal hive body space and concluded that the 7 and 5/8 inch 10 frame box was near the perfect dimensions. With this purchase I acquired 100 live hives and enough equipment to expand to 200 hives. In the first few years I did just that making a decision to make bees instead of honey, often sacrificing _any_ honey crop in the name of expansion. I used this size box for both hive bodies and supers as I had concluded that an open brood chamber (no queen excluder) and free reign of the bees allowed great latitude in making splits and moving resources around. Then I hit a wall. The day came when I had split myself out of equipment. Where I lived (upstate NY) no one used this size. I had no readily available boxes or frames to purchase from anyone. So, I bought kiln dried white pine and started to make my own boxes and frames, this proved to be too costly, time consuming and difficult to keep up with. The bees suffered as I could not keep up with their demands for more equipment. Honey crops were lost due to a lack of supers. Ultimately I was forced to make a decision. I decided then to use the readily available 9 and 5/8 "deep" boxes. Again, several more years were spent in converting my system to deep boxes. Four years gone. I used the "standard" system of 9 and 5/8 inch brood chambers and 6 and 5/8 inch honey supers for many years after. However, I never felt during this period that this was the right setup-I had lost my ability to move frames freely throughout the system. Near the end of my beekeeping career I made a decision to go to 9 and 5/8 inch 8 frame hives for all of my hive body and super needs. I never did get the entire system converted to this setup but I still feel today that this is the perfect size box for all the bees and beekeepers needs (oddly similar in void space to the 7 and 5/8" ten frame box I had used). I stand by this statement today. This brings me to my point- if only someone had told me from the beginning what boxes to use I think I could have elevated myself into a much bigger commercial operation in a faster time. This information would have saved me many years in my learning curve. I might have, had things been different, continued to keep bees on a commercial level to this day.
Now, I don't take for granted that not all of us have the goal of becoming commercial beekeepers. But we must, as a community, recognize the dearth that's being created by retiring beekeepers. There is simply no new beekeepers coming in to fill the void. And why would there be? The work is hard, the pay is abysmal, and there is a very real possibility of losing the majority of your hives in any given year. But we, the old guys (by old I mean experienced), the been there done that crowd, can smooth out the bumps a bit. We can lead the way. We can do this with knowledge and _agreement_. We simply cannot allow beekeeping for crop pollination and honey production to decline into history. If we do, then we must ask ourselves- where will the food come from? By making this knowledge available, and leading the way, maybe the hobbyist starting out today will become the commercial operator of tomorrow. And I just don't see how LHB can bridge this gap. 
But we still have to deal with the cost of starting in beekeeping, and I think we can do something about this too. Do you have any equipment laying around that you have not had a chance to repair? Are there any old smokers hanging on the wall of your shop? How about tops and bottoms? Bee veils? Ya, I still have tons of equipment from those years sitting in a box van on my property in NY. I'm going to put my money where my mouth is-if anyone who lives in the Fingerlakes area of NY wants to start in beekeeping give me a P.M. I'll make available to you enough equipment to start one hive if you make a deal with me. Come spring you put an ad in your local paper that you'll catch a bee swarm for free- and do it. During the winter as you get ready for this new most excellent of adventures you have to promise to educate yourself with books and forums like this one. You do that and I'll give you a hand. It won't cost you a dime in money, but it will take some sweat. Maybe, in time, you'll be the next big beekeeper to pollinate the food I eat and produce the honey for my tea.


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## FindlayBee

So what you are saying is that a person that only wants to keep one or two hives has no business even getting into business with bees?

I live inside city limits. I can only have one or two hives on my property. Should I give up now? No, I can contribute up to two colonies of honey bees for the area. Now, if neighbors join in, we get even more colonies. Beekeeping doesn't have to be a massive undertaking.

Until I found the top bar hive, I would never have thought about having a hive as the cost burden of a Langstroth is too high and my wife likes me to keep my hobbies on the less expensive side.

If we all build our TBHs to the same width, all our equipment would interchange. Also, building a top bar hive is easy. I can rip new bars in just a few minutes if I need more bars.

Also, that used bee equipment has to be inspected for disease. At least in Ohio, all used hives, frames, tools, etc., have to be inspected before sale.


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## AllTek

No, you're missing my point. It's the _ability _to expand that's important. Some folks find they have a gift for keeping bees. They have a few hives and the next thing you know it's turned into ten, then twenty and so on. Great. But this becomes very difficult to do without standardized equipment. I do like your point on a standardized TBH. Same idea. A little harder to convert into a commercial operation-harder to load into trucks, harder to stack etc. But the same idea- an ease of expansion. 
As far as disease, I would welcome any inspection process. That wouldn't hinder the process of giving away equipment at all. A new beekeeper should start with disease free equipment anyway. The best part- the state provides this service for free.
Now, you made an interesting point. That you have a few hives, and you hope that maybe your neighbors would get involved and have a few hives of their own. This is the way it once was _before _commercial beekeeping as we know it today. When we were a farming nation almost everyone had a few hives on their farm for the harvesting of it's honey. They kept them in skeps and killed the bees when it was time to harvest. They then would catch swarms in the spring and repeat the process. Then Langstroth had his vision about bee space. We had, for a period, a mingling of the commercial _and_ the residential beekeeper. There were more than enough bees to pollinate everything. But as we became industrialized, the residential beekeeper become more scarce. Until finally the age of the commercial migratory pollination efforts was born.
I just don't see a renaissance of that kind coming anytime soon. We, as a nation, have moved through an industrial into a technological age and become separated from our environment. Unless this changes at it's root the burden of crop pollination will fall on future commercial beekeepers, and that is where I put my hope.


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## Beethinking

I'm not sure why you are so much of your frustration with top bar hives. It sounds more like you're frustrated that no one's taking up where others have left off in beekeeping. You also don't seem to comprehend that there are many who use non-traditional hives not only due to cost, but for a multitude of other reasons including: 

1) The enjoyment of building our own hives
2) The desire to keep bees in what we consider a more natural, foundationless environment
3) The ease of working these style hives over the cumbersome, heavy Langstroth hives
4) Less strain on our backs
5) Fun

I have a Langstroth hive and it does well. However, I don't enjoy working in it, I don't enjoy lifting 40-60 pound boxes, and I don't like to use foundation. Sure, I could always go foundationless in that hive, but I much prefer Warre and Horizontal Top Bar Hives for the reasons above as well as many others. 

Do you feel that I and those like me are a detriment to the beekeeping community? Do you feel that we are hindering the replenishment of the commercial beekeeping population?

Cheers,

Matt


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## WI-beek

Alltek

I appreciate all your insight on the subject of hive body and frame size. I believe I have really learned something from it. Hopefully I make the right decision. Something that seems so simple is really a bit complicated and so difficult to choose from. One frame size is definitely an advantage. If you are going to buy nuc's or sell nuc's having medium boxes is going to be a major problem. I guess I better try me some eights this coming season.

WI-beek


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## Adam Foster Collins

I think that the TBH is helping rather than hindering. Working a TBH isn't going to do anything to hinder a person who gets hooked on beekeeping from moving on to the Lang. 

Most people seem to think that large-scale beekeeping should be done with a Lang - but true or not, the point is that the TBH seems to be encouraging even more people to give beekeeping a shot.

I'd say that's at the root of what AllTek is advocating. And in that sense, the TBH is on your side.

Adam


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## AllTek

Do you feel that I and those like me are a detriment to the beekeeping community? Do you feel that we are hindering the replenishment of the commercial beekeeping population?

Cheers,

Matt 

To answer your two very important questions I reply No and maybe. Allow me to explain. First, the TBH may just be the renaissance that the beekeeping community needs. The faith I do not hold in a resurgence of residential beekeeping may just be the TBH. For that I would say hallelujah. But we would still have a gap.
We live in a world now of huge tract farms. Many of our crops are grown not by members of our community but by members of Agribusiness. How would these crops be pollinated? Many of these farms are far away from communities of any kind. This trend continues to grow as small farms go out of business. That leaves us with the problem of pollinating these crops. I'm afraid that they can only be pollinated by those that have embraced the calling of the commercial beekeeper. These beekeepers need standardized equipment if they are to be efficient and expand. And who knows who these new commercial operators are? 
I think they might be here lurking right here, looking for information. I think they may have an interest and just need a hand. So my answer to your second question is maybe. I feel that responsibility tugging, and I'm just trying to give back to a way of life that's given me so much. As Thurgood Marshall said: 

“None of us got where we are solely by pulling ourselves up
by our bootstraps. We got here because somebody -
a parent, a teacher, an Ivy League crony or a few nuns -
bent down and helped us pick up our boots.”"


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## bigbearomaha

Alltek,

Here is what I see as you failing to understand.

While you may be seeing more posts in forums and some ads online for TBH's the overwhelming majority of beekeepers new and experienced are still using Langs. There is no immediate danger of the Lang going the way of the Cuckoo bird. it is firmly entrenched into the beekeeping landscape.

What iand others have tried to communicate is that there are more reasons for keeping bees than making money in honey production and crop pollination for some folks. For those folks, other hives, like TBH's , may be more appropriate to their needs and goals.

Langs are probably the most efficient method for crop pollenation and honey production. But, for the more educational and social oriented beekeepers, who use their hives to teach students and community members or to study and observe bees, they may find that tbh's are better for those purposes. new markets are opening up where bees can be involved and other hives may be better for those markets. 

Another thing to consider is the point made earlier that langs are designed to make the beekeepers life easier. Some folks are focusing on making the bees lives easier or at least being less intrusive in bees lives and there tbh's do excel over langs. 

it's a big world and there's plenty of room in it for all variety of hives. enjoy the variety, don't stifle it.

Big Bear


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## AllTek

Thanks Big Bear for enlightening me, I just have a few questions.

I remember the feeling well when I had a surplus of honey to extract and how excited I was to give it away (before I went commercial), but you said that: "there are more reasons for keeping bees than making money in honey production and crop pollination for some folks." I'm just wondering what would have enticed a guy like me to go into commercial honey production or pollination if not for that surplus from my hobby hives.

Also, you said: "Langs are probably the most efficient method for crop pollenation and honey production. But, for the more educational and social oriented beekeepers, who use their hives to teach students and community members or to study and observe bees, they may find that tbh's are better for those purposes.", but I remember giving many talks to students and others on bees using nothing more than a glass observation hive with Langstroth style frames in them. The people seemed to be very interested and even excited about the bees and what I had to say. How are your TBH's superior?

Another point you made is, "that langs are designed to make the beekeepers life easier. Some folks are focusing on making the bees lives easier or at least being less intrusive in bees lives and there tbh's do excel over langs." My question is _how_ does it make the bees life easier to house them in a TBH versus a Langstroth when bee space is observed?
Any help you can give me to these questions would be greatly appreciated.


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## bigbearomaha

no problem. 



1) I can't speak for you or what triggers your interests. Who knows what compelled you to go into beekeeping except you? I do know that I have had many enlightening and interesting conversations with people who have gotten into beekeeping for a tremendous number of reasons, each as individual as the people who expressed those interests. what motivated you is different than what motivates others. same goes for all of us. that's why we're called individuals. we all have our own minds.

2) Top bar hives, especially horizontal top bar hives, you are able to pull up only one comb at a time, keeping the erst of the hive essentially closed. this presents a smaller number of bees to the group, which can be much less intimidating than to have the larger volume of bees flying after taking the top off of 8 to 10 frames in a lang. It is reported by many tbh keepers as less intrusive to the bees. In terms of using glass observation hives, those are a different situation and work tremendously well in getting peoples attention. My reference is when having people looking at a hive in the field, so to speak.

3) Again, speaking of horizontal top bar hives, they are less intrusive than a lang. The TBH allows the beekeeper to expose only a single comb at a time versus the 8 to 10 at a time of a lang. Also, by allowing only one comb at a time to be removed, nest scent and nest heat are better helped than by exposing the entire top of the hive box as in a lang. 

This isn't meant to be a "my hive is better than your hive' thing, every hive type has it's pro's and cons. some hives have pro's where other hives in the same area, have it as more of a con. it's not a total competition. just comparison.


There are many beekeepers around the world who prefer the methods and approach of beekeepers like Abbe Warre, who feel that opening hives all the time and disrupting bees 'natural' life processes causes more damage to the bees than is necessary. so said, try to find ways to work with bees and still reap benefits. 

In the case of Abbe Warre, his whole premise was that beekeepers can not disrupt a colony but twice a year and make a living at collecting honey, wax, etc... Thus the 'Peoples Hive' A vertical top bar hive, was created.

There are lot's of ways that beekeeping can be done and still be successful and enjoyable.

Big Bear


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## FindlayBee

I became interested in keeping bees after watching "Silence of the Bees". Wanted nothing to do with honey bees prior.

The documentary is available to watch at pbs.org

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/silence-of-the-bees/full-episode/251/


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## beenovice

I have TBHs, skep and standard, frame hives. I get surplus with all. I get the same amount of honey from TBH as I get from frame hives. I am beekeeping stationary and I see no difference. 

I would not say any hive is superior but for me skeps and TBHs just "feel better". I will still have frame hives of course...anything goes  

I still think that you don't even get it what TBH is ? How is bee space not "observed" in TBH ? It is "removable comb" hive ! 

For me personally TBHs are easier than frame hives.


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## AllTek

Thanks Big Bear,

As to the answer to my first question you are right: it's difficult to find anothers motivation.

But the answer to my next two questions leaves me puzzled.
You're talking about exposing an entire box to the elements when using a Langstroth hive. One of my tricks as a commercial beekeeper, to maintain the "scent" and "heat" of hive, was to use a rug instead of an inner cover that had been cut down the middle. I could then work just one frame at a time as the rug rolled back into place to conserve the bees climate. How is this different from your TBH?

Also, from the perspective of Abbe Warre, I believe he was almost right. The bees, from my observations, made a ton more honey and were more heavily populated when I just left them alone. As any "old hat" beekeeper will tell you, there comes a time when we all make a decision to keep our hands off the hive, and we have all been better off for it. There is certainly something to the phrase "loving it to death", when it comes to bees.


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## bigbearomaha

While I have seen those cloths used, I don't get the impression that it is common or popular amongst a majority of beekeepers. I may be wrong in that, just the impression I get.

Like I said, it's a choice of hive for people who prefer that type of hive. Everyone has their reason. Not as much weight to shuck around, less bees exposed, natural cell sizes, a plethora of others.

My point is that there is no need to unduly criticize other peoples choice of hives. if that hive is no interest to one, then one needn't use that type of hive. We can all get along with our different hives.


BTW, look how much we have in common already, except for the type of hive we use. methodology, interest in bees,likely a lot more.

Big Bear


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## AllTek

Big Bear,

I believe you're right, we do have a lot in common. I look forward to hearing your views on a range of subjects.
I appreciate as well your entrepreneurial spirit. I visited your web page. Excellent stuff. Your love of beekeeping and bees really shines through. 
Good luck in all you do!


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## peacekeeperapiaries

Alltek, in reading your posts I understand your frustration is in regards to the future of commercial beekeeping (pollination, honey production, bee production) not so much a frustration with alternative hives. I also share your concerns as we have raised a generation of kids who do not see reward in hard work and sweat equity. As older beeks retire and fade away who will take their place and maintain this ever important role in agriculture. My hope is some of the people on this forum will see opportunity and seize it. After a long hiatus from bees I am now a few years from retiring from my day job, i researched the state of the bee industry, realized that colonies and commercial beeks are declining, prices went up considerably compared to before and I decided my next career will be in the bee business. I now work 7days a week between my career and the bees, I ENJOY the hard work and am seeing the rewards of my labor. I hope others heed your concerns because without the commercial beeks the agriculture business and our country are in grave trouble my friend. Thanks for you contributions to the industry and this forum.

Steve


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## bigbearomaha

My momma always said, people don't get worked up about something unless it really mean something to them. That's how I took your posts. beekeeping really means something to you. i just didn't want your deep interest to be 'muddied' by something that didn't have to be an issue.

Thank you for your compliments. it's intended to be a local project and get more folks in the area to take an interest in beekeeping in general. from their first, hopefully positive and fun experiences with us, they will begin a similar adventure of their own. in the end, more interested and involved beekeepers is good for the bees.

I hope to see more of your posts here as well. I love learning the little tricks and tidbits that I might no get if I were to just keep my own council.

( besides, my wife is very effective at reminding how much Idon't know and the kids just rub it in. :doh: )

Big Bear


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## odfrank

I am not going to spend time reading this thread because I really feel it is more important that we argue Ford versus Chevy versus Dodge.


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## JonEdangerousli

Lol!!


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## Sam-Smith

Cacklewack said:


> I'm not sure why you are so much of your frustration with top bar hives. It sounds more like you're frustrated that no one's taking up where others have left off in beekeeping. You also don't seem to comprehend that there are many who use non-traditional hives not only due to cost, but for a multitude of other reasons including:
> 
> 1) The enjoyment of building our own hives
> 2) The desire to keep bees in what we consider a more natural, foundationless environment
> 3) The ease of working these style hives over the cumbersome, heavy Langstroth hives
> 4) Less strain on our backs
> 5) Fun
> 
> Matt


I'm with matt, besides the only differences I see between the two techs is foundation and method, there are a lot of people running langs foundation-less, and this was how they were originally designed before foundation.
I have read that the upper limit for a one person operation is something like 100 hives, and of course when you start hiring people the costs start to sky-rocket. 
When I was working for a beek last summer I spent a large part of my time tending to equipment, tending a tbh is slower then a lang but I figure they balance out because of the lack of equipment. I plan to make this a business, I don't see the need for commercial equipment comparability since I'm building all my hives. And I plan to keep the business small since there is a point of diminishing returns, e.g. ether go small or really big.


Sam.


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## throrope

Yee doggies! This is lookin' worse then the Hatfields & McCoys. I haven't seen these fightin' words since I was researching smokers and learned the difference between grilling and BBQ.

Squaring off like this is good and bad for both.

Good we discuss options so those interested can find a way to start that suits their constraints. Good we debate differences so all can learn something they otherwise may not consider. Good we brag so all learn more than one way works.

Bad that this looks like a cat fight. This party is no fun. I heard that we have 30% of the beekeepers that the 1960's had. The last thing we need to do is put someone off. Please leave out the criticism, complaints and condemnations and leave in guidance and encouragement. That's why I came.

I have five langs and am tired of spending $150 every time my hive swarms. Two are in my back yard and three are in the neighbors. At $30 bucks for a top bar, I'm now waiting for the next swarm.

I have my first TBH in an out yard. Its eight land locked acres only accessible by foot. I hope it survives the winter. Harvesting into 5-gallon buckets is possible, but carrying a super 1/4 mile is not. This place will accommodate as many hives as I want, but no langs.

I hear 2% of beekeepers run 90% of hives and with each passing year, fewer sources produce more packages. I perceive our food now depends on stressed bees with declining genetic diversity and more frequent flyer miles than Wall Street’s CEO’s. TBH’s can only help.

A couple years ago my neighbor across the street was cooing over "little bees" she hadn't seen since a girl. Last year my army of bees amazed her neighbor when they over ran his flowering ornamental tree. The guy I succored to let me put three swarms in his yard chewed my ear off over his best crop of cucumbers. I’ll get more trouble if I stop this nonsense than all I endured since I started. Sounds like we need more langs, skeps, warre, tbh and just plain bees.


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## bigbearomaha

Actually, I think we all came to a point of understanding on page 3

besides, I never took his first post as a 'callout' or anything like that. I saw someone who was trying to make sense of something that was outside of his personal experience circle at the time. Otherwise, no problem.

Big Bear


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## Sam-Smith

Yea this thread looked doomed until cooler heads prevailed, for myself I get twitchy whenever some one criticises my tbh, but I think thats just because a lot of tbh people get so much flak at home for their non-standard approach. And I think we are all so passionate about bees that our passion triggers strong responses.
I'm always happy when I see a honey bee fly by, I saw one in town the other day did a double take, I was wondering if it was a wild bee of maby some one had a backyard hive?


Sam.


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## NY_BLUES

i think this discussion has been a great one, and that many people are going to take something from it. The way i see it, not every beekeeper has to be a fan of TBH's, just as not every baseball fan likes the Yankees. I am taking Alltek up on his offer to supply people with enough equipment to start a Lang, and i will keep a thread on its progress here on Beesource.com


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## JonEdangerousli

NY_BLUES said:


> The way i see it, not every beekeeper has to be a fan of TBH's, just as not every baseball fan likes the Yankees.


I was afraid you were going to bring up the DH...:lpf:


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## NY_BLUES

i think that the DH thread would get deleted if we were to start, but is is going t:


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## trapperbob

I have worked commercially in bees when I was younger in California. I now live in Nebraska and keep bees in langs and TBHS they both have there pros and cons. And I could argue that one is better than the other but that is like comparing apples and oranges. As a rule commercially langs are probably better if nothing else because of sheer avalibility of hardware. But some have and do work TBHS commercially and make money doing it. That being said I think that every new beek should first learn in langs and then if he or she wants to branch out great. The TBH equipment can be made cheap enough and be made so it is all interchangeable so that is one theory that is easily argued and won. But as a rule you have to find the time to make it. Lets face it it is much easier to go and buy ready made equipment. But I really think the real problem is the kids of today are not taught a real work ethic any more our schools, goverment and parents have failed to teach our workers of tomorrow the real value of a honest days work. Why go and work in a bee yard or extraction house when you can work in a office behind a computer. America use to be one of the leading countrys for producing just about everything imaginable and had a lot of pride doing so. Now it is all made some where else. We now are a service oriented country and when you go that route you will fail. So langs or TBHS I say who cares teach a kid today.The bible says you reap what you sow. SO sow the seeds today and you will have your futur beeks tomorrow and let them decide what equipment they will use.


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## bigbearomaha

I think if one does not or can not, for whatever reasons, build their own equipment, there are more sources to purchase assembled and kit form TBH's.

Obviously not as many as sell Langs but there are people out there willing to build and sell them. As more people try and decide they like top bar hives, there will be both demand and new suppliers.

Big Bear


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## Omie

I live in a rural area of NY, 50 minutes drive from Albany.
Interestingly, I know of two beekeepers within 90 minutes of me that sell TBHs they make themselves. (they sell their bees as well if you like) One is very cheap and somewhat rustic hive, but works just fine- he has over 300 hives of his own running. The other is rather pricey and 'custom' TBH- oriented towards the well to do organic gardener/dabbler.
I just think it's interesting that there are two choices in my area already for those wanting to buy TBH pre-made. There is also a TBH one year apprentiship course being offered 30 minutes from me. (too rich for my blood though)
If I hadn't have been given an established Lang hive as a gift that got me started in BK, I likely would have started with TBHs. I may get one anyway at some point. I _love_ comb honey, for one thing...and TBHs are visually psychologically less threatening to others in the neighborhood. They look more like planters or cold frames in the back of one's garden. 

I think there is a _big_ market developing out there for home garden backyard hives now. there are big 'urban chicken'/'urban beehive' movements going on. I have many friends who never used to mention anything about gardens, chickens, and bees, all talking about such things for their own little 1/2 acre plots now. The movement is spreading quickly.


We put in a big new veggie garden in our backyard that was formerly just lawn. The garden fence guys told us that their normal fence orders were way down but that their new veggie garden fence jobs had quadrupled this past year, keeping their business afloat pretty well.


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## Adam Foster Collins

I've got to say, as I get ready to get back into bees and I really look hard at it all again...


...The Langstroth is a brilliant design.

It really is. I can see why it became the standard for so many people. It just really works amazingly well. As a designer myself, I know that all designs are in some way, a compromise. The need for compromise is what makes design necessary at all; how do we get the most of what we want with the least of what we don't? In that sense, the Langstroth Hive is amazing.

But as time has gone on, new parameters for what we want has shifted enough to get a lot of people looking again for other methods - and interested in trying new things on their own. Now the tbh is not new, but just new to a lot of people. Urban beekeeping has made it desirable to work with hives that people do not easily recognize as hives. Urban beekeeping also requires a method that doesn't require a ton of storage space. Industry standards have also created added expense over the years (and the same will certainly happen with tbh's as they gain popularity - the simple fact is that North Americans cannot support themselves and their habits without making a fair amount of money - so if one takes the time to build and market a tbh, it has to cost a fair amount of cash.)

I imagine, that the industry will soon expand to sell the Lang, the ktbh, the ttbh, and the Warre all side by side. They have the network of suppliers and the eyes of the consumers. I'm sure they will continue to dominate the market and sell all the 'new', 'organic', and 'natural' products consumers demand.

But for now, it seems like a bit a pioneer period again.

And that period of trial, error, experimentation and potential for growth is dear to the spirit of our culture. 

Adam


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## A. S. Templeton

I keep 3 Warré vTBH hives because I agree with the Abbé about his method's much lower effort and cost, and better match to bees' needs. Warré tried and rejected Langs and similar outsized/framed hives 70 years after Langstroth, so calling modern TBHs and their management regressive or primitive is just ill-informed. Nobody is advocating a return to skeppism.


Varroa dislike breeding in the cozier Warré climate.
The honey boxes are lighter and easier to handle.
The infinitely-nadired Warré stack does not prompt swarming.
I don't need to maximize honey production
I have a use for the pressed wax (don't have to fret about wax moths)
I'm content with my sweet-tempered Carniolans.
What's not to like?:thumbsup:

In this postmodern era, folk seem especially likely to drift away from conformity and orthodoxy, in this case, Langstroth-style boxes and methods. Live and let live; a little diversity should be welcomed, not sneered at as a threat.

//AST


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## diamondjfarms

I see your point to the original post. But let me explain my scenario. I have some acreage that we raise horses and cattle on, and my husband also farms cotton on some leased land. We are starting our family, 2 young boys. I thought having a personal fruit orchard would be great, as my boys would be able eat fresh fruit from the trees, as I did on my grandfather's farm as a child. Luckily, my new orchard had a feral group of bees living in a 5 gallon bucket with a cracked lid. The bees lived in that bucket for at least 3 years, and my fruit blossoms had bees all the time. Last year, no bees in the bucket, and very few on the blossoms. A fire ant colony had built up around the bucket and killed the bees. I decided that I needed some bees. I asked around to see if anyone would like to come put a hive on my property, but it seemed to be too much effort. I was offered to buy a hive and keep bees myself. I have no experience with bees. A Lang hive is costly, heavy, and time consuming. Not to mention harvest is a large lengthy operation. I just want my trees pollinated, and now maybe a bit of honey. The point I'm getting at, if you stayed with me this long, is my boys will grow up around bees, and will surely observe their habits, and have no fear of them. As they get older,they will take part in the small harvests from the TBH. There is a good chance that my boys will grow up to become bee keepers. Being young men, there is always a need for spare money, and I expect they will be able to handle the weight of the Langs. I foresee the Future Beekeepers you are looking for will likely come from the children of the families with a "garden" top-bar hive or two in their backyards.


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## throrope

diamondjfarms

I'm with you.

I have 5 Lang hives from an original poly hive I gave away - all from swarms. I'm on 1/2 acre in a suburb outside of Philly, "American Dream" like neighborhood. Two are in my yard and three in a neighbors. I needed the first hive like a hole in my head, and started with the idea my boys will get something out of it.

We got to four because I can't bear to lose bees to a swarm and get a kick out of the watching onlookers' big eyes. Now the whole neighborhood gets bees on their flowering trees, flower beds and gardens and I expect I'll get more hassle if I stopped. I split last year, went to five and got my buddy back on line after his died that winter.

My sixth hive is a top bar because I got sick of spending $200+ every time they throw a swarm. I put it on an eight acre landlocked wooded parcel I picked up at a tax sale in '87 for next to nothing. No right of way and too many obstacles for 4x4. No good for a lang, but I'm thinking perfect for top bar because I carry the harvest in a 5 gallon bucket. Once in place, lang or not, they're not going anywhere and I doubt anyone will make off with non-standard gear.

With screwed butt joints it's as solid as any of my hives, took no more time to assemble and cost next to nothing in comparison. If I can break away, I'll check on them this weekend. I sure do hope they made it because I'll use it for splits.

At the cost my five hives I can build thirty-five top bar hives. If they only make 1/3 the honey, at that number I'll be a couple hundred pounds ahead. If I lose ten the next winter, through splits I'll have them back before our short honey flow ends.

By the bee, they are not the most efficient pollinators, but when your army outnumbers the competition by 1,000 to 1, you have a "no brainer." Why can't I do the same? Besides, I don't have room for hives here and I can't put Langs where I have the room.

Don't worry AllTek, you'll never see them.


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## Delta Bay

If you think about the time frame that the langstroth hive become the hive that everyone used across North America it took a fairly long time to go coast to coast. There was a lot of resistance to it for one reason or another. But what really turned the Lang hive into the hive of choice was when the foulbrood acted came into play. This is when the hive was force onto the beeks for the good of all.
In my area it was around 1913 when inspectors where hired to go around the province changing beeks over to the Lang. Even though the Lang was used by some most where using a wide variety of hive types. 

Part of their job was too inspect for signs of foulbrood. Amazingly not one case was found in two years throughout BC. It wasn't long after the Lang took over in this area that the foulbroods started showing up.

This really speaks volumes in my opinion that maybe the box hives, log gums, crates, etc with there natural comb really makes a difference in bee health.

I think it's great that we can have TBH's


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## jmgi

>This really speaks volumes in my opinion that maybe the box hives, log gums, crates, etc with there natural comb really makes a difference in bee health.

No question, the Lang hive made commercial beekeeping what it is today, it allowed people to earn an income from bees, unfortunately, IMO, along with all the positive aspects of the modern hive come the negative aspects of replacing what is natural for something more controlled. We probably will never fully understand HOW the honey bee has been weakened by our interference, but there is no question in my mind that we caused it.


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## Wyldbee

Outstanding debate between Big Bear and Alltek! You kept it civil and I learned a lot from both sides of the fence. At first I thought he was just bashing TBH keepers and now I understand he was coming from a deeper concern of commercial beekeepers being essential to our farming and crop needs and passsing the torch down to future generations so that we may continue to enjoy our fruits, veggies and nuts. We can not all be keeping bees just a hobby. It would be short sighted. I am glad that Big Bear could also help Alltek see why TBH are worthwile too and why many are drawn to them. I am going to be starting out with bees in a TBH for my first time and showing my kids as much as they are willing to learn. Our family is looking forward to Easter weekend here in VA (that is when the bees arrive).


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## Wyldbee

I have been looking through the achives way too long! Sorry for the old thread:doh:


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## sjj

jmgi said:


> >
> 
> ... , but there is no question in my mind that we caused it.


I didn't! 
For sure!


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## thomas894

Agreed-Questioning and re-evaluating the last 100 years of beekeeping indeed. Just because humans have used something for a hundred years means little, its been a mere blink of an eye and no-one alive now is an expert.

thomas


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## beenovice

The thing is that hobbyists with couple of hives are providing for majority of pollination. Overall hobbyists are more "essential" to our farming and crop needs


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## thomas894

Is that true?
thomas


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## jmgi

>I didn't! 
For sure! 

I think you know what I'm getting at.


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## buckbee

This thread seems to have tailed off into incomprehensibility...


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## beenovice

thomas894 said:


> Is that true?



Use common sense. Of course it is true.


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## sqkcrk

beenovice said:


> Use common sense. Of course it is true.


So, if all of the commercial pollination providing beekeepers stopped providing bees to orchards, groves and vegetable patches, everything would be alright? Tell that to Valasic Pickles Inc.

Back yard beekeepers may provide the majority of incidental pollination to suburbs and surrounding environs, but I don't know what else you might be writting about.


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## beenovice

sqkcrk said:


> So, if all of the commercial pollination providing beekeepers stopped providing bees to orchards, groves and vegetable patches, everything would be alright? Tell that to Valasic Pickles Inc.
> 
> Back yard beekeepers may provide the majority of incidental pollination to suburbs and surrounding environs, but I don't know what else you might be writting about.


I am pretty sure that hobbyist beekeepers provide majority of pollination not only in suburbs and surrounding environs but on commercial crops also. I am talking about the big picture. Not just almonds and big commercial growers but all things considered. Ecosystem...ding, ding  

If you don't agree with me and if you have any relevant data on this, please do share. I am interested. It may be different where you live....


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## Beethinking

beenovice said:


> I am pretty sure that hobbyist beekeepers provide majority of pollination not only in suburbs and surrounding environs but on commercial crops also. I am talking about the big picture. Not just almonds and big commercial growers but all things considered. Ecosystem...ding, ding
> 
> If you don't agree with me and if you have any relevant data on this, please do share. I am interested. It may be different where you live....


I think this is definitely not the case in the United States where it seems that the majority of our hives are managed by commercial operations. It may very well be the case in Europe, however.

Matt


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## beenovice

I only found this : http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/dept/abf.html

Take into account that commercial beekeepers have greater numbers at one place while hobbyist are here and there providing better coverage....


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## A. S. Templeton

Adam Foster Collins said:


> ...The Langstroth is a brilliant design. ... It really is. I can see why it became the standard for so many people. It just really works amazingly well.


Oh, please. The Lang and its modernist derivatives were aggressively marketed, cheaply manufactured, and standardized such that vendor competition and downward pricing lowered the barriers to entry to almost token levels. Don't confuse brilliant marketing with good design--I'm a designer too, and can see that the Lang's flaws are glaringly manifold.

The Lang is drafty and overlarge, with sizing and framing suited to mass-produced, forced honey production--and to fostering many bee diseases and parasites. Any claim that it's fundamentally well-suited to honey bee biology is delusional. That it's an industrial-scale device with 99% market share (huh...for now) in no way makes it even close to ideal for small-scale or back yard beekeeping.



> ... Industry standards have also created added expense over the years (and the same will certainly happen with tbh's as they gain popularity... North Americans cannot support themselves and their habits without making a fair amount of money...


No way. Warré's core philosophy was to make beekeeping _*once more*_ accessible to everyday folks. Despite a few small-scale and amateur woodworkers now offering Warré products, most are still homemade. And please keep your OT digs at Americans to yourself.



> ...I imagine, that the industry will soon expand to sell the Lang, the ktbh, the ttbh, and the Warre all side by side. They have the network of suppliers and the eyes of the consumers....But for now, it seems like a bit a pioneer period again.


Not there yet, thank goodness. There's loads left to be developed, rationally and by trial and error, and rushing once again into another standardization paradigm would be badly premature. There are today many exciting, ongoing hive developments and beek methods that deviate firmly from Lang-era orthodoxy, so if this is what you mean by pioneer, then yes, it's a good time to be getting into the craft.

//Alex T.


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## embees

I agree with a lot of folks on here that "to each his own" we had a few tbh's and they didnt work out with us very well but we also decided to expand, the trouble we had was that the bees wanted to build comb across the top bars even though we made a groove in each one and put a bead of beeswax down every top bar. we never figured out why they did it this way but it was really fun to explore and check out, we eventually moved them into a langstroth setup and they did just fine. but I say if one wants to try it then go for it, you never know you just might like it!


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## Adam Foster Collins

A. S. Templeton said:


> Oh, please. The Lang and its modernist derivatives were aggressively marketed, cheaply manufactured, and standardized such that vendor competition and downward pricing lowered the barriers to entry to almost token levels. Don't confuse brilliant marketing with good design--I'm a designer too, and can see that the Lang's flaws are glaringly manifold.


Oh please is right. The lang's flaws are only "glaringly manifold" under a wave of rising recent criticism, after 150 years of widespread use. And when one is assessing "good design", one has to keep the intent of the designer and the context they were working in, in mind. The intent was movable frames, mass-production, ease of access and maximum honey. For the time it was produced, and for the purposes it was designed for (purposes it continues to serve quite well), I maintain that the Langsroth hive was very well-designed. Your first paragraph describes an industrial age success to a T. I'm not confusing anything.



> Warré's core philosophy was to make beekeeping _*once more*_ accessible to everyday folks. Despite a few small-scale and amateur woodworkers now offering Warré products, most are still homemade. And please keep your OT digs at Americans to yourself.


If a Warre hive is illegal anywhere you are required to use a movable frame hive, it kind of rains on the "accessible to everyday folks" parade. And I didn't make any "OT digs at Americans", cowboy. I made a general observation of the culture I've been a part of for my whole life. 

You sound like you're raving at me. It's not especially conducive to a good conversation.


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## bigevilgrape

Coudln't you build a warre hive with removable top bars so that it met that standard even tho you choose not to inspect it? Or would the bees attach it to the sides so much that it would defete the point?


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## bigbearomaha

Yes you can. It is referred to in a few sites that offer instructions for building them.

One could drill a hole on each end of the top bar, and place a nail at each end. The hole being slightly larger than the nail will stay put when not being inspected but slide easily over the nail to be lifted and removed when needed.

There are other similar techniques (cut a slot at the ends instead of drill a hole, etc...)

Big Bear


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## buckbee

bigevilgrape said:


> Coudln't you build a warre hive with removable top bars so that it met that standard even tho you choose not to inspect it? Or would the bees attach it to the sides so much that it would defete the point?


In my - admittedly limited - experience of Warré hives, the bees will attach comb down both sides. They are also likely to cross-comb, although I found that round bars seemed largely to prevent that happening.


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## Zonker

As I understand it, the question of horizontal (top bar) v vertical (lang) was decided by Lang's advertising budget size back in the 1800's. The most successful bee keeper back in those days were using horizontal hives, but didn't manufacture or sell their hives. 

Of course the horizontal hives being used back then were much deeper that the tbh we're using today.


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## honeydreams

just my two cents here I look at a tbh as a throw back to the stone age! with that said I feel there is a use for a TBH in modern bee keeping, I use it for a trap and that works well. And I like having one on my back deck, Nice and small. As for the lang. It's over 150 years old and works well it has flaws its not the best for bees its not the best for Beeks. But if one looks at it like from a modern aspect of things. take Microsoft it is not the best operating system at all. but every one uses it because of it being easy even me I use it. Is ther a better computer operating sysytem? Yes but is it compatible with whats out there? does every one understands how to use etc.. same with the lang. 
It's standard easy to use the vast majority use it. right now it seems that TBH are on the rise but its not so Just that the THB is getting awhole lot of publicity and hype. 
so each to their own but as for me and the majority of my bees we will stay with a lang.


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## buckbee

honeydreams said:


> Is ther a better computer operating sysytem? Yes but is it compatible with whats out there? does every one understands how to use etc.. same with the lang.


It's called Linux and it runs most of the servers on the net! And like the TBH, it costs virtually nothing, is easy to learn, and does the job better.


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## bigbearomaha

agree on the Linux. I can also say that Microsoft is on record as owing most of their 'popularity' to illegal and un ethical OEM contracts forcing computer manufacturers of the 80's and 90's to have no 'real' alternativesexept to install it's software on prebuilt computers.

Their seems to be a notion that old things are bad or useless and can only be replaced by new ideas and inventions. This is so unbelievably wrong.

The history of beekeeping by humans is dated back to early Greece and Egypt at the least. The invention of the langstroth is a relative newcomer and it claim to fame is to be a type of hive designed to make the beekeepers life easier, don't worry about what may be best for the bees, as long as it's easy for people.

I don't have a problem with the langstroth hive in itself, my concern is those who starchly defend it as 'the definitive and only' hive of modern times. 

The Langstroth is a good hive for forcing bees to produce more honey and make it easy to collect. That is what the man who invented says he made it for in his book.

is it possible that there are other people working with honey bees that are not interested in high honey production or might actually have different objectives, thereby finding better use from other tools?

I have used and will continue to use langs in my work with bees for those few situations where they are the better option. I find that the horizontal tbh will work better for my objectives in most of my foreseeable work though.

the close minded and shallow thinking that langs are the one and only hive that can and should be used is not helping anything or any one.

furthermore, for those folks who dislike the aggressive attitudes of some proponents of tbh's, you are not alone, no one likes argumentative and close minded people trying to force their ways onto others.

No one wants to hear the 'langs only and others are evil" crowd and no one wants to hear the " langs are evil and those that use them are too"

There are so many better things we can discuss to help keep the honey bees alive and thriving like sharing knowledge on biology and behavior.

now

back to our featured presentation...

Big Bear


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## bigevilgrape

honeydreams said:


> Microsoft it is not the best operating system at all. but every one uses it because of it being easy even me I use it. Is ther a better computer operating sysytem? Yes but is it compatible with whats out there? does every one understands how to use etc..


That is a can of worms you do not want to open. But no I don't use windows, and I have no compatablility issues with the rest of the world.


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## honeydreams

to reply to your post, I was pointing out some one's earler post on the lang being marketed very well. we have Microsoft because of slick advertising and other such things I for one don't care what os system is better cheaper that was not my point if you read the whole postings on this topic. I am just saying LLL did a great job marketing then any one else out there. Bill gates did a better job then anyone else out there on getting his product out there. and yes I know of all the cheatting stealing patten busting that has gone on. so please take the post as a exsample of what Is being said not what you read in to it.


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## bigbearomaha

That's the point. i am saying your example of 'slick' and good marketing is incorrect.

in 'marketing' the langstroth hive, it was marketed on it's merits and what it had to oofer the beekeeper who wanted more and easier.

It was good marketing with few if any competitors.

You are comparing that to a person and company who did not just market, but lied, cheated and stole doing anything he could to eliminate competition which already existed.

I don't think that is a fair comparison at all for the lang.

Gates wasn't good at marketing as much as he was good at getting away with crime.

Big difference.


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## honeydreams

:banana::banana::banana::banana: Big bear take a chill pill.


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## bigbearomaha

I didn't think I was being un-chill.

Big Bear


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## NewBee2007

I think that if anyone wanted to, that in many cases, they could "adapt" their tbh to use lang honey supers if they wanted. I know a lady that has used her lang honey supers on her tbh. And I had purchased an 8 frame deep as that was the only deep they had available for sale and I needed a deep super that day, so I bought it. And when it came time to expand that 8 frame into another level I used and "adapter" to combine the 8 frame deep with 10 frame supers above. The point being that I don't think that non standard need to be mutually exclusive (unless you want them to be). I too am hoping to experiment with a tbh this year since I have also been expirementing with foundationless frames. (And I think I will be cutting out my comb and refastening it. Apparently the hives may have been unlevel as they started to build comb across multiple frames, even though they had a line they could have followed. But I really like the idea that the bees can determine the size of the cells and comb they desire as well as that there is less to buy and less plastic and foreign residues and chemicals in the hive.) 

And I agree that we have to get the next generation outside and involved in more hands on past times. Electronics are nice and have their place, but some of the obesity and hyperactivity issues can probably be resolved by getting youth (and adults) outside more... and why not include learning about beekeeping as one of those activities.


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## Farmsteader

honeydreams said:


> just my two cents here I look at a tbh as a throw back to the stone age! with that said I feel there is a use for a TBH in modern bee keeping, I use it for a trap and that works well. And I like having one on my back deck, Nice and small. As for the lang. It's over 150 years old and works well it has flaws its not the best for bees its not the best for Beeks. But if one looks at it like from a modern aspect of things. take Microsoft it is not the best operating system at all. but every one uses it because of it being easy even me I use it. Is ther a better computer operating sysytem? Yes but is it compatible with whats out there? does every one understands how to use etc.. same with the lang.
> It's standard easy to use the vast majority use it. right now it seems that TBH are on the rise but its not so Just that the THB is getting awhole lot of publicity and hype.
> so each to their own but as for me and the majority of my bees we will stay with a lang.


 Please don't use Computer or Sofware comparisons here , i am an older Beek just getting tuned in on homesteading and less time on 'Puter Stuff, ,, Yes i am here to learn, and this Thread has been a great lesson for me and i am sure other beginners on the differences of the Four main hive types or designs. I do think that the first post is looking for a Builder of his ideal 7by5/8 inch Lang. maybe someone could see this as an opportunity for future business ,or to help him find this size . As a total novice i am so glad you guys are sharing your time with us, and i for one Thank you. This info is valuable and best an eye opener of some Hive realities . Maybe its time for a contest be organized at some Engineering,Design , in conjunction with Agricultural-Apiary Students to come up with new better hives for us and the Bees.
One thing that was not brought up , we can't just blame one design for CCD or downward population growth of Bees Because it has to do with many influences. IE: Neo-nicotine pesticides from Bayer, other from Mansanto, like Round up -( i never liked that Toxic chem, when i was in a small Business, i refused to sell it or even stock it),Weather Cycle changes,(i am not sold on Greenhouse effects at this time), Chems used in Beekeeping as well. 
this was my Beginner 2cents, but i am just looking in from outside at this point. i appreciate the constructive banter or Volley , and will grow with this knowledge.


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## honeydreams

Farmsteader your right on the money. I say each to their own. Enjoy what you want in hive design.


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## A. S. Templeton

honeydreams said:


> Farmsteader your right on the money. I say each to their own. Enjoy what you want in hive design.


That's what this is about. There is no need for fear & loathing from the frames-are-great crowd, or flame throwing from TBH radicals. Surely there's room -- dare one say _necessity _-- for as much diversity as possible in beekeeping, in hives, methods, and philosophies. Stick to the orthodoxy? Fine. Shrug off the dead hand of LLL? Go for it. 

//Alex T.


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## A. S. Templeton

Adam Foster Collins said:


> The lang's flaws are only "glaringly manifold" under a wave of rising recent criticism, after 150 years of widespread use.


Huh, this seems to imply that such criticism, based on the sensibilities of actual living beekeepers today, and backed up by hard scientific data, can be blithely ignored. "It's worked for a century and a half, so it must be perfect for all time." I recall seeing this type of argument on a list of logical fallacies.



> Your first paragraph describes an industrial age success to a T.


Snore...the West has moved beyond The Age of Progress, and the Manifest-Destiny, anthropocentric philosophies of that age have been overthrown. CCD, sick, medicated and dead colonies hardly constitute "success". It's high time the 19th century strictures on beekeeping were cut away to allow bee-rational keeping to progress.



> If a Warre hive is illegal anywhere you are required to use a movable frame hive, it kind of rains on the "accessible to everyday folks" parade.


Ignorant, bogus argument. Warré's Beekeeping for All refers to fabrication of a simple, bee-friendly hive by the non-pro, and to simple colony management that doesn't eat up a beek's time. Warré never addressed arbitrary and ill-informed restrictions on hive construction. And it ain't a parade, but a groundswell that is evidently threatening to some who see only one Truth in beekeeping, or who revere LLL as G*d's divine prophet of the craft.

And a big NB on "North Americans", eh: Canucks and other nanny-staters may be comfortable with intrusive laws steering personal and professional conduct and trade, but we "cowboys" south of the border somehow manage without them, and quietly circumvent or blatantly ignore the ones already in place.

//Alex T.


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