# Importance of mite check



## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

Mite management is fundamental to keeping bees alive. Full stop and no compromise. My year starts in August with a full series (7 at least every 3 day OAV and a follow up if needed). I do mite checks 24 hours after an OAV treatment using a mite board and going to mitecalculator.com and converting the number to infestation rate. Sometimes I do a fall OAV to cover robbing season. In spring I use Apivar strips. 

So yes. If you only have the energy to do a few tasks this has to be one of them. Otherwise you will be starting over. 

There are exceptions but they are not the majority and difficult to assess if you are new and unskilled.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Jim Braun said:


> Yesterday I went out to check my colonies and put on sugar blocks for the small ones. I had 2 dead colonies. 1 was an October swarm that starved. No surprise as they only had 6 frames and 2 were honey. The other one was a new queen that I was hoping to use for queens next year. That colony only had 1 deep box on it, they never put up any honey in the super.
> 
> Now back to my title. I only checked the varroa load on my bigger colonies. Since this one was 1 deep I thought it was OK. I won't make that mistake next year. This was definitely a mite problem. The number of bees had gotten pretty low and they eventually surcumbed to the cold that we had here in mid-Missouri a few weeks ago. There was a few patchs of capped brood that they were not able to keep warm as their number of workers had gotten to low. There was a small cluster (30) bees or so, dead. There was a honey band on all of the frames so I know they had food.
> 
> ...


Jim,
that was not the hive to make Queens from..

I both love and hate winter, it takes hives from me, but it highlights the better ones and somewhat unforgivingly also highlights the "non breaders"

GG


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

Mites are one of the biggest challenges to keeping hives alive. All 3 of the normal hives that I lost were due mite problems weakening the hives and them not making it thru the winter. I treat for mites every fall, and try to keep an eye on the numbers during the summer. The saying the bigger they are the harder they fall has held true in my experience that I have a lot more mite problems with the big strong hives.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

I do similar to LAlldredge.
Mid-August I start with weekly OAV treatments. I know every 4 days is recommended, but my work week doesn't allow for that. 
Anyway, after 7 or 8 treatments I check the mite drop. If I see mites I keep treating. 
This year I did 10 OAV.

Then once again around Christmas and New Year. I hit them twice. Just treated them yesterday. 

One year I got delayed and didn't start the treatments until October (if I remember correctly)
That year I had a few losses. 6 out of 23.

Key to it for me : hit them early and often. 

Elmer is right. Those big hives are loaded with mites.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It is much easier if you do not let the numbers ever get high. Not hard to keep them low but hard to bring them down. If you are set up with band heater type vaporizer to treat from the back or top of the hive I think it could be done at night. I have done them when it was raining a bit. Throwin a bit more OA in will compensate for not bothering to close front entrances. If you are using screened bottom boards though that might be a little too open. On Randy O's site he shows numbers that support 2 or 3 days intervals for effectiveness and longer periods between make them exponentially less effective. 

Hopefully it will not be too long till the oxalic acid and glycerin extended release sheets will get approval. Whacking the mites early in the season then put the contact strips in will let you coast thru the summer. Presently too often the wintering bees will be getting raised in the presence of mites and their accompanying virus loads. That is stacking the odds against good winter survival numbers. Too little and too late!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

One issue with the "mite check" is that it often means that the checking is done late in the season and subsequent reactive mitigation looks like these graphs (while often enough is too late anyway).
For the checks to be the most useful, it is best to check early in the season proactively (and react early on) and have the checks reliably sensitive to low mite numbers.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregV said:


> One issue with the "mite check" is that it often means that the checking is done late in the season and subsequent reactive mitigation looks like these graphs (while often enough is too late anyway).
> For the checks to be the most useful, it is best to check early in the season proactively (and react early on) and have the checks reliably sensitive to low mite numbers.
> 
> View attachment 66730


I would like to see another line what would be the effects of treatments every 3 days!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> Presently too often the wintering bees will be getting raised in the presence of mites and their accompanying virus loads. That is stacking the odds against good winter survival numbers. Too little and too late!


Local advice is for us to make sure that the mite loads are being treated by Aug15, that is pretty early. I am interested in just getting my bees to live the winter so I started an Apivar treatment Aug 12, took them out the end of Sept. and then did a OA dribble early Oct. as the fall was long. 
The count 1 week after OA was nil, so I did all I can outside of checking each bee to see if I did my count properly. 

I wish to eventually only use OA dribble or glycerine pads for treatments but until I know for sure that my winter set up will keep healthy bees alive having a hive alive in spring is my first goal. Only then I can be confident in my wintering methods and change the mite approach.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> I would like to see another line what would be the effects of treatments every 3 days!


Questions/Requests to Randy Oliver - those are his graphs.
Am not an expert.

Personally I like this picture by far and striving for this:


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Greg
that single graph is not logical.
It suggest a 90% kill with one treatment. ok good so far.
to keep the mite at the original 10% one would need to have an 8 week brood break, So it could be a late fall treatment , but in summer the remaining mites would ramp up as the 3 week treatment schedule suggests. in winter the remaining mites would go into the first brood in late feb early march.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

That zero brood situation necessary to give a 90% effectiveness of a treatment is pretty much a dream world situation. How many people actually get such a period they could target? Can we live with the damage accumulated while waiting for such a time? I realize that manipulations could deliberateley create a broodless situation but it that appears not simple enough to be widely used by a whole cross section of beekeepers.

Also in some of his other charts it shows how it finally took a two days OAV treatment shedule to bring mite levels down near zero. Probably in a situation of extreme in drift from other colonies but that is often what the reality IS!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> Greg
> that single graph is not logical.


It is an approximation, GG.
Of course the mite numbers go up BUT at a pretty shallow rate from a starting point which is low.

Importantly, if you time that one-time hit well AND you have other favorable conditions - a single hit may just carry you through for the season.
This is exactly what I am testing out this season.

But I decided to reduce the risk further and did a single late-season LAD (Lactic Acid)
Easy, harmless, and makes sense to do anyway - just as you said, to reduce damage to the first spring brood and the current bees too.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> That zero brood situation necessary to give a 90% effectiveness of a treatment is pretty much a dream world situation. How many people actually get such a period they could target?
> 
> I realize that manipulations could deliberateley create a broodless situation but it that appears not simple enough to be widely used by a whole cross section of beekeepers.


If you manage in such a way - why not?
What is so difficult in creating a brood-less window (and a no-brainer - taking advantage of pre-existing brood-less window with swarms/packages).

It is really dumb simple to do.
The real issues are - 1)lots people are afraid of shaking the bees (as if they are going to kill/damage them) and 2)the mentality of making splits WITH the brood included is deeply entrenched (as if no other alternative is possible somehow).
Well, natural swarms are brood-less - always have been. 

I did the brood-less windows this past summer all way around with no special efforts.
No queen caging involved - which I still intend to try out (but it is not required).


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

With education and experience Greg, it certainly is doable. Just think how long you have been messing around with such interventions. My thought is that it would tempt people looking for a quick, once and done (probably without even doing any before or after confirming mite counts) since it is put forth as so effective. It would appeal to people who cannot even find or cage a queen.

That is the scenario that went through my mind. The qualifiers you put into the post to GG are the caveats that I think are what would need attention by people attracted by suggestions of that graph. 

_Importantly, if you time that one-time hit well AND you have other favorable conditions - a single hit may just carry you through for the season._
_This is exactly what I am testing out this season.

But I decided to reduce the risk further and did a single late-season LAD (Lactic Acid)_
_Easy, harmless, and makes sense to do anyway - just as you said, to reduce damage to the first spring brood and the current bees too. _


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I have a feeling that mites have quite a few tricks in their arsenal, the latest discovery is that mites produce a click which is something like a bats radar and this is how the deaf and blind mite can work its way through the hive with its smell disguised as that of a bee. This brings me to treating with brood breaks, it appears to me that all hives with or without brood need to be treated at the same time as I am of the belief that when the brood pheremone decreases it pushes mites into migration mode as they realise that they are in a situation where there is not much breeding future. So while you have some hives broodless and are getting ready to treat those only there is a possibility that the mites from the broodess hives are moving to the hives with brood. Make no mistake these little bugs spread so fast around the world and have proved that they adapt very quickly to survive. I have had a situation where I helped a lady check out her ywo hives a few years ago, I found one hive queenless with no brood at the time while her other hive was thriving, I suspected that there was a virgin in the broodless hive so asked her to keep a check on that hive and the same old story about giving a frame of young brood and eggs if no queen starts laying in a week or so. I also suggested that I give both hives a shot of OAV as it will clean out most of the mites in the broodless hive and knock some down in the other, so I asked her to check the stickies the next morning and expect many mites from the broodless colony and not so many from the thriving colony with brood. I called her the next day and asked how the stickies were and to my surprise she informed me that there were not many mites from the broodless colony but a large drop from the other colony. Makes you think does it not.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

crofter said:


> That zero brood situation necessary to give a 90% effectiveness of a treatment is pretty much a dream world situation. How many people actually get such a period they could target? Can we live with the damage accumulated while waiting for such a time? I realize that manipulations could deliberateley create a broodless situation but it that appears not simple enough to be widely used by a whole cross section of beekeepers.
> 
> Also in some of his other charts it shows how it finally took a two days OAV treatment shedule to bring mite levels down near zero. Probably in a situation of extreme in drift from other colonies but that is often what the reality IS!


maybe a warm day mid January you could get a vaporization with zero brood. Or if installing a package.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Jim Braun said:


> Yesterday I went out to check my colonies and put on sugar blocks for the small ones. I had 2 dead colonies. 1 was an October swarm that starved. No surprise as they only had 6 frames and 2 were honey. The other one was a new queen that I was hoping to use for queens next year. That colony only had 1 deep box on it, they never put up any honey in the super.
> 
> Now back to my title. I only checked the varroa load on my bigger colonies. Since this one was 1 deep I thought it was OK. I won't make that mistake next year. This was definitely a mite problem. The number of bees had gotten pretty low and they eventually surcumbed to the cold that we had here in mid-Missouri a few weeks ago. There was a few patchs of capped brood that they were not able to keep warm as their number of workers had gotten to low. There was a small cluster (30) bees or so, dead. There was a honey band on all of the frames so I know they had food.
> 
> ...


It stinks losing colonies. No matter what you expect.

I like to blame the drones, as someone has to be to blame.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Gray Goose said:


> Greg
> that single graph is not logical.
> It suggest a 90% kill with one treatment. ok good so far.
> to keep the mite at the original 10% one would need to have an 8 week brood break, So it could be a late fall treatment , but in summer the remaining mites would ramp up as the 3 week treatment schedule suggests. in winter the remaining mites would go into the first brood in late feb early march.
> ...


If there is no brood, the mite count should *decrease* about ?5% per day? due to mites dying for some reason.
If there is enough brood so most mites ready to reproduce can find open brood to enter, then mite count should begin to *increase* about ?3% per day? beginning pretty much right away.
I recall those rates from about 5 years ago, and my memory for numbers isn't very good, so anyone who has more accurate numbers correct me please.
However, all of that is ignoring the tendency for mites to find your colony from neighboring colonies.

The graph is an over-simplification to illustrate a point, which is if you can treat when a colony is broodless, and heading into a fairly long broodless period, you don't need to worry about mites for a while, provided conditions are such that drifting mites are not a problem.

Or at least, that is how I understand it.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Certainly, take advantage when a brood break occurs, but like Johno says dont get complacent about how long lasting the results will be if there is a high background mite level in your yard and surrounding area. Deliberate brood breaks can be quite an economic setback to a colony if you are in a short season area. That has been kicked around before. grozzie2 ran out the math on that in one post that sticks in my mind. There are articles on manipulations of all colonies in a yard that separates capped brood and makes mite treatments very effective but it takes a high degree of organization. If it can be done strategically with, say, a very predictable dearth in your area it may not be ANY detriment to your colonies.

Lots of "It all depends" involved.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

I am a lazy and a bad beekeeper.
I never check for mites. I treat with OAV every 4 to 7 days whenever the weather is above 50F and supers are off, because I know I have mites.
I don't bother to seal the hives for OAV, just a block of wood in the lower entrance. Not that much smoke comes out anyway. It takes about 5 minutes per hive.
If I see crawling bees with supers on, I either pull the supers and treat with OAV, or use one of the Formic Acid based treatments.
I suppose sometimes I treat when I don't need to, but I think that is less harmful, difficult, and risky to the bees and queen than doing a mite check. It is also much easier. (remember the lazy part).
I am in a suburban area surrounded by wannabeekeepers, and at least one medium sized commercial beekeeper who tolerates high (60% winter, unknown summer) losses and does minimal or slipshod treatment for mites. So there are lots of mites around, and lots of drones that like my hives for some reason.
I haven't observed that brood breaks really help with mite levels, probably because I have several colonies together, and their drones behave like a certain former US president and feel welcome in any hive that is convenient. I have a theory that they like to hang out in a hive that is raising a virgin queen, though I have no basis whatsoever for that theory, since I am too lazy to do the experiments needed to verify it. Understand I haven't really done mite counts on colonies with brood breaks, (the lazy part) but I have seen PMS in colonies I didn't treat on the assumption a mid-season brood break had taken care of the mite problem. Others have a good deal more experience and a lot more hives than I do, so you might want to listen to them and see what is working in your area before embarking on a plan of treatment.

Hope the rest of your bees winter well.

Jon


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

That graph shows that when we pay attention to our broodless cycles we can decrease the mite population with one good zap of an OA dribble or other treatments and possibly free up time wasted doing multiple treatments 'just in case'.

I had three colonies this season with a mid summer broodless period, one was a swarm with a virgin queen, one was a hive that superseded the queen and one was a hive that I removed the queen for a split ( the resulting hive was the one that superseded). Had I been on the ball and armed with information such as this graph, I would have treated them with my OA dribble to take advantage of the situation at hand. Next year I will be prepared. 

Mites will of course come in from other places but if we can establish, as Randy Oliver did, that when a colony is broodless the mite population can be taken almost to zero with a well times treatment then personal choices can be made as to how much work or production loss a beekeeper is prepared to accept in order to create that broodless time frame.

For me, as a small isolated beekeeper this is quite possible. As for drifting drones or in yard robbing all my hives have robber screens on at the beginning of the season and they don't come off till the end. My concern would be my bees robbing others but since the nearest hive is over 5 miles away and he is a very responsible keeper, the risk is for now small.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> That graph shows that when we pay attention to our broodless cycles we can decrease the mite population with one good zap of an OA dribble or other treatments and possibly free up time wasted doing multiple treatments 'just in case'.
> 
> I had three colonies this season with a mid summer broodless period, one was a swarm with a virgin queen, one was a hive that superseded the queen and one was a hive that I removed the queen for a split ( the resulting hive was the one that superseded). Had I been on the ball and armed with information such as this graph, I would have treated them with my OA dribble to take advantage of the situation at hand. Next year I will be prepared.
> 
> ...


certainly be ready at all times, new swarm, supercedure, split and take full advantage of the "know features of a brood break" Even if you save those 3 they may be 6 next year, the gain or loss is at the margins. All 18 of my splits this spring got a VAP at QC hatching - 2days and then 5 days later then 5 days later which was pre capping the first brood.
they took off nicely, and the little NUCs were easy to treat.
Just one of those things we need to be ready for a brood break now has advantages, so Boy scout motto, be prepared.

GG


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## cwoodar0 (Jun 13, 2021)

We all treat in a slightly different way, and i found a way that has been working well for me. So I treat oav at least once a month, july-march. I do 3 days apart for a bunch of weeks, from the middle of July until sept. Then it's monthly all fall and winter. In March it is nice to do a few 3 days treatments just to give them a big dose before they have 4 months to multiple mite number while supers are on


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> The graph is an over-simplification to illustrate a point, which is if you can treat when a colony is broodless, and heading into a fairly long broodless period, you don't need to worry about mites for a while, provided conditions are such that drifting mites are not a problem.
> 
> Or at least, that is how I understand it.


This is how I understand the said graph and what I implemented this year - draft below.

Last year I did the mite counts across the board in September and documented how without treatments in my particular area the counts were overwhelmingly "high" and "very high" on the "Mite Load" scale.

This (and consistent losses year after year for long enough) tells me that in my location I need not even bother with the mite counts.
It is safe to assume that if left alone the mite load will be at least medium to high (meaning terminal) - with very few exceptions.

Thus, around here one might as well just build the regular treatments into the seasonal managements and plan for them - if you don't engage into some kind of selection activity (where the mite counts are a part of the selection criteria).

Your situation may very and need figuring out on the spot.


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## Wil-7 (Sep 4, 2021)

GregV said:


> This is how I understand the said graph and what I implemented this year - draft below.
> 
> Last year I did the mite counts across the board in September and documented how without treatments in my particular area the counts were overwhelmingly "high" and "very high" on the "Mite Load" scale.
> 
> ...


While at a club meeting, I won a door prize of an alcohol wash jar. Further into the meeting somebody asked about which method is best for mite counts and the president of the club said to just treat for mites instead since they are going to be there anyhow. Being a new beekeeper, and just in the learning stages with one hive, this is all I have had to go on from my local club. I haven't ran across to many that advocate the alcohol wash in the club. I'm sure there are,I just haven't found them yet. I primarily just used my sticky board placed in my screened bottom board to tell me how my formic Pro Acid treatment and my OAV treatment have done in zapping those pesty critters.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Wil-7 said:


> I haven't ran across to many that advocate the alcohol wash in the club. I'm sure there are,I just haven't found them yet. I primarily just used my sticky board placed


Look, for everything there is appropriate context attached.
Nothing is in vacuum.

There are mites - this is a given fact and so such statements are just not useful. What is new?

The real questions are - 1)how many mites and 2)do you care?

For you (a small hobby folk who just needs some bee products, like me) it maybe sufficient to determine:
1) if there are sufficiently many mites present at all times which will terminate your bees if not handled
2) if you care to have the bees surviving per-annually so to NOT keep buying the bees OR keep chasing the free bees to recover your losses

Someone else may have entirely different take on it (e.g. someone in mite-tolerant bee selection program will have a different take) - so don't try to copy them as they have different fish to fry from you. This is important to understand - what is YOUR program and what is THEIR program.

So you may do mite counts for a couple of years OR try treatment-free for a couple of years OR do both.
These should help you determine your own baseline on hand and this is where the mite count is useful.

Once you know your own baseline on hand, no further continuous counting is really necessary - rather just decide on your own management that works for you (in your situation) and stick with it.

Also, understand the difference between the alcohol method vs. the sugar method and where both are appropriate and sufficient.


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## Wil-7 (Sep 4, 2021)

GregV said:


> Look, for everything there is appropriate context attached.
> Nothing is in vacuum.
> 
> There are mites - this is a given fact and so such statements are just not useful. What is new?
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me Greg.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

johno said:


> This brings me to treating with brood breaks, it appears to me that all hives with or without brood need to be treated at the same time as I am of the belief that when the brood pheremone decreases it pushes mites into migration mode as they realise that they are in a situation where there is not much breeding future.



I'm wondering how the mites migrate from one hive to another? Are they totally dependent on their host bee carrying them to the next hive? I can understand this happening when one hive dies out, but beyond that I do not know.


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## bricknerdn (Dec 5, 2020)

LAlldredge said:


> Mite management is fundamental to keeping bees alive. Full stop and no compromise. My year starts in August with a full series (7 at least every 3 day OAV and a follow up if needed). I do mite checks 24 hours after an OAV treatment using a mite board and going to mitecalculator.com and converting the number to infestation rate. Sometimes I do a fall OAV to cover robbing season. In spring I use Apivar strips.
> 
> So yes. If you only have the energy to do a few tasks this has to be one of them. Otherwise you will be starting over.
> 
> There are exceptions but they are not the majority and difficult to assess if you are new and unskilled.


Why don't you do a fall formic acid treat which can be done with or without honey supers on the hive. This gives a 99+ % phoretic and capped mite kill. You will not have to do Apivar (which is becoming questionable as to how effective it is) in the spring. You can then do OAV in July and that should control the mite population until the fall formic application. Better yet, use oxalic acid in an extended release application mid June and mid August for total summer control.


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## bricknerdn (Dec 5, 2020)

GregV said:


> One issue with the "mite check" is that it often means that the checking is done late in the season and subsequent reactive mitigation looks like these graphs (while often enough is too late anyway).
> For the checks to be the most useful, it is best to check early in the season proactively (and react early on) and have the checks reliably sensitive to low mite numbers.
> 
> View attachment 66730





GregV said:


> One issue with the "mite check" is that it often means that the checking is done late in the season and subsequent reactive mitigation looks like these graphs (while often enough is too late anyway).
> For the checks to be the most useful, it is best to check early in the season proactively (and react early on) and have the checks reliably sensitive to low mite numbers.
> 
> View attachment 66730


This data about weekly mite treatments is from 2015 and is obsolete. If you have Randy's latest articles on mite treatment, he has reported the data from OAV mite treatments by other contributors, and it has become apparent that OAV must be applied almost 7 times at 3 day intervals to knock down the phoretic mites on the first day, and to kill all the newly emerging mites from the capped brood.


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

For what it's worth, it's late December, and in the mid-Atlantic area, we have been having temps in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Because of this, the bees aren't clustering tightly. I checked my hives on a nice 65 degee day and saw virtually NO brood. This tells me that NOW is the time to do more OAV treatments. Cold comes back on Monday, so hit them now, if you aren't sure. I had very low mite loads, and hope to make that number ZERO before winter really hits.


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## greenbeehives_5643 (Dec 12, 2021)

I use thermal treatment with The Victor. It loves brood, since they cannot move and the heat penitrates the capping easily. The mites die and fall to the bottomboard during a three hour treatment of the brood super from the nurse bees AND the mites die on the capped and uncapped brood as well. As the brood hatch dead mites continue to fall for 14 days after the treatment. One draw back is the youngest day of eggs seem to dry out from the heat before they can be capped and while their surface area to volume is the greatest. Seems like a small pride to kill 85% of the mites on one day. We have been doing this for 10 years with great success.


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## Wil-7 (Sep 4, 2021)

greenbeehives_5643 said:


> I use thermal treatment with The Victor. It loves brood, since they cannot move and the heat penitrates the capping easily. The mites die and fall to the bottomboard during a three hour treatment of the brood super from the nurse bees AND the mites die on the capped and uncapped brood as well. As the brood hatch dead mites continue to fall for 14 days after the treatment. One draw back is the youngest day of eggs seem to dry out from the heat before they can be capped and while their surface area to volume is the greatest. Seems like a small pride to kill 85% of the mites on one day. We have been doing this for 10 years with great success.


I just watched the video that you have using the Victor and also went to your website to view your other products. I found the video most interesting but with my back issues the Victor offers to much unneeded lifting of the hive bodies.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

greenbeehives_5643 said:


> One draw back is the youngest day of eggs seem to dry out from the heat before they can be capped and while their surface area to volume is the greatest.


Not saying it never happens, but have not seen that complaint about MMK.

Is there an end user forum for Victor? Quite frankly, I trust actual user reports more than vendor claims. Hate Facebook, but tolerate it when necessary.

Are there any plans for a NUC size Victor? MMK has stated there will not be making anymore 5 frame size once they resume production.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bricknerdn said:


> This data about weekly mite treatments is from 2015 and is obsolete. ....... it has become apparent that OAV must be applied almost 7 times at 3 day intervals


The bigger point is still - it takes several frequent and repeated treatments to achieve satisfactory outcome.

In addition, if you are like me (working, weekend beekeeper type and, god forbid, have a family) - you don't really have the time to be working the bees every 3 days on tight schedule. Loose weekly schedule is just what is the most practical way for many people anyway (love it or hate it, but what it is).

Obviously, if you are a retired person, you can work your backyard bees even daily if you wish.
If you are a full-time beekeeper, well, then that is your job to do as well as required.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I've never checked for mites. I simply assume that at least some mites will be present, and treat accordingly: 4x 5-day VOA treatments early to mid August and a single treatment in December. I might do two treatments this year: one tomorrow, and another in a few days time - weather permitting. If I should ever lose a colony to mites, then I will review this strategy - otherwise not.
Fortunately, there doesn't seem to be any obvious way in which tolerance to OA can build-up.
LJ


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## bricknerdn (Dec 5, 2020)

little_john said:


> I've never checked for mites. I simply assume that at least some mites will be present, and treat accordingly: 4x 5-day VOA treatments early to mid August and a single treatment in December. I might do two treatments this year: one tomorrow, and another in a few days time - weather permitting. If I should ever lose a colony to mites, then I will review this strategy - otherwise not.
> Fortunately, there doesn't seem to be any obvious way in which tolerance to OA can build-up.
> LJ


Just curious, but what is your annual colony loss rate? How would you know if you lost a colony due to mites?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bricknerdn said:


> Just curious, but what is your annual colony loss rate? How would you know if you lost a colony due to mites?


Pretty darn sure LJ has had 0 (zero) loss for years.
Correct @little_john ?

This is partially why I also pretty much concluded I am not going to worry of this mite counting (after having done general counts to assess my own baseline).
My local baseline has been established - not effectively treating at my location means one thing very predictably - 80-90% colony loss (count or not, does not matter).


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> Pretty darn sure LJ has had 0 (zero) loss for years.
> Correct @little_john ?


I lose around 5% of colonies during the season (so make-up excess nucs to compensate for that), due to poor or zero mating success, but zero loss during Winter* was* perfectly correct Greg, right up until today. We've had two days of shirt-sleeve weather, and I noticed that one nuc stack wasn't putting any bees into the air - so this afternoon I checked it. Dead-out. Not mites though - a bl##dy mouse - which was still in there. Talk about trashing combs ... First mouse-related dead-out I've ever had. Thought I was exempt. 

So I killed it, but that didn't make me feel any better. Totally demoralising. Holes in combs big enough to put a fist through. Bummer. Still, lesson learned - need to make some add-on mouse-guards, either that or incorporate them into existing designs.
'best
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

bricknerdn said:


> How would you know if you lost a colony due to mites?


The classic sign is little white crystals of 'mite poo' on the underside rim of brood cells. If you see those in a dead-out, then it's almost certain that either the mite-load itself or the viruses mites carry will have been responsible for the colony's demise,
'best
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Bummer. Still, lesson learned - need to make some add-on mouse-guards, either that or incorporate them into existing designs.


Consider those 1/2" holes across the yard.
Not a single loss to mice here, yet.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

bricknerdn said:


> How would you know if you lost a colony due to mites?


300 dead mites on the bottom board in just a week or so.
Part of reading the hive is a thorough autopsy.
Dump out the bottom board onto a piece of newspaper, you can tell a lot of what was going on in the hive by looking at the crusty remains.
Get out a magnifying glass and flashlight and sort the debris, inspect the dead for mites as well.


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## bricknerdn (Dec 5, 2020)

JustBees said:


> 300 dead mites on the bottom board in just a week or so.
> Part of reading the hive is a thorough autopsy.
> Dump out the bottom board onto a piece of newspaper, you can tell a lot of what was going on in the hive by looking at the crusty remains.
> Get out a magnifying glass and flashlight and sort the debris, inspect the dead for mites as well.


I should have asked "How did you know you lost the colony due to mites", instead of "How would you know if you lost a colony due to mites". If you have screened bottom hives, then there won't be any debris on a bottom board. 300 dead mites over a week is not a terrible infestation if the colony has a population of 50 to 60 thousand bees.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

50 or 60k bees is not a withering dying colony.

Yes a larger number of bees would show a higher mite "drop"


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

JustBees said:


> 50 or 60k bees is not a withering dying colony.
> 
> Yes a larger number of bees would show a higher mite "drop"





JustBees said:


> 50 or 60k bees is not a withering dying colony.
> 
> Yes a larger number of bees would show a higher mite "drop"


And yet it is those large colonies that can go from looking healthy to dead in a very short time. Without inspecting, it's difficult to know what is really happening in the brood nest.


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## Thorting (Apr 18, 2020)

GregB said:


> I did the brood-less windows this past summer all way around with no special efforts.
> No queen caging involved - which I still intend to try out (but it is not required).


Like your thinking, but I have some thoughts. Caging the queen will risk your current queen, she will be restricted from laying the amount of eggs she needs to, so her pheromone level will go down. Also her feet pheromone will not get in the hive and the brood pheromone will also go down. I think the brood pheromone is going to be the biggest problem, because the colony will supersede her. If she is superseded you will have a long break in brood.

I like your idea, but would work with the bees instincts. Create a split with the queen and no brood in the original spot. Move the rest of the hive to a different spot either as a walkaway or add a cell. I would OAV all the hives in the apiary when the split takes place and after 21 days or after the new queen gets mated. If you move all the walkaways to another yard you only have one OAV per yard. Finish up with a combine if you don't want any more hives. Now timing of the year when this happens can help or hurt your honey production, so know your flows.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Thorting said:


> Caging the queen will risk your current queen, she will be restricted from laying the amount of eggs she needs to, so her pheromone level will go down. Also her feet pheromone will not get in the hive and the brood pheromone will also go down.


I have no personal experience, but people in the know have been doing the queen caging routinely *for decades *- no issues.



> Create a split with the queen and no brood in the original spot.


Why, yes.
I have done exactly these - the broodless, fly-back splits and some variations of the same.
A no brainer method, while expanding the stock.


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