# TBH interested, ranting, questions, not sure...



## jimbobee (Mar 22, 2013)

Hi,

I'm new to beekeeping, having not so a good a time of it with two Langs this year. One was doing well, the other not so well. Thinking I need to combine the two, not looking forward to it.

AND thinking about doing a TBH next year at my house (the two langs are 10 min away at my father-in-laws).

Do TBH hives require more time per week than Langstroth hives? Are the bees really easier to work, even the first year? I'm a nurse at a hospital, so I get to the hives when I can, not always when I want to.

I've read some of Michael Bush's stuff and Sam Comfort and I'm going to get Les Crowder's book (again, since the first time it was overdue to the library from being misplaced  )

I originally wanted to go with a TBH this year, but my wife, who was the original family beekeeper 7 years ago, convinced me to go with 2 Langs, and I now kinda dread visiting the hives, cause they're so HEAVY and the bees get SO pissed off most of the time. 

If one of the Lang hives survives the winter, I'm thinking about converting it to a TBH next year and scrapping the Lang altogether - I don't care about LOTS of honey, a couple of jars per season would be great. I just want healthy bees and something I enjoy doing.

Thanks for listening to my rant.

Jim


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## Crsswift70 (Sep 9, 2013)

Another solution might be long lang hives. Very little lifting and it's easy to get to the bees without disturbing too many at once. I thought about doing TBH, but i like the idea of frames/foundation for spinning and making nucs.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

It's my first year with bees, and I went with a top bar hive and have not regretted that decision at all. Bees are very gentle and I look forward to the inspections. Sometimes I have a hard time waiting the full 7 days to see what they are up to. 

Yes, TBH's require more frequent manipulation if you want to catch and correct any cross combing (haven't seen that yet in mine, probably because I'm in there so much). Depending on the size of your hive, they can tend to swarm more often, so I have heard. I keep adding a bar to mine to open up the brood nest.

My only complaint right now, which is minimal, is that after I have looked at each bar, I have to slide them all back just perfectly to close it off, and some girls are always poking their head thru the slots, so it can take me 15 min to get things back just right, if I don't want to squish a couple. I've learned to use a paint stick to nudge them back down while I slide the bars together firmly.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I like the long hive suggestion by _Crsswift70_. Being able to easily move resources back and forth between a Lang and a TBH is a real plus, IMO. I have split TBHs into Langs, and it takes some effort and ingenuity, unless you want to do a cutout.

Ruthie, I use a large feather that I scrounged to guide the bees down when closing the bars together. I glued a small wood handle to the quill of the feather, which also stops it from blowing away. It works well for me, and I keep an eye out for more feathers ...

.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

I wouldn't convert the Lang to TBH, why not take a split off the lang next spring, even though you don't want many hives, having several sure makes it easier when one gets in trouble. I use a feather like Graham does, have not thought about a handle, mine keeps blowing away, thanks for the idea Graham. 
I have both Langs and TBHs, I like the mix, each has it's purposes and weaknesses, together they work well for me.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Thanks for the feather comment. I have read about using a feather in a book somewhere, but haven't been able to get a hold of a turkey feather yet...but hunting season is coming up so maybe soon.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Very much dislike TBH, I would do horizontal lang. I like standard 10-frame langs.


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## ositolud (Feb 24, 2013)

I do not have any experience managing a lang, but I can tell you that I absolutely love my top bar hive. 
They are a little more needy when it comes to spending time working them. At least, that is my experience during this first year. I am thinking that time will drop next year as I will then have established hives with straight comb that keeps the bees building straight. 
I also have the same problem as ruthiesbees when it comes to closing up the hive, especially if it is rather full. I am planning on trying something from Wyatt A. Mangum (well, I am pretty sure I got it from him). I have a small piece of scrap at the front of my hive separating the first top bar from the front wall. I am going to take a very stiff piece of wire, bend the end at a 90 degree angle to make an L, and then sharpen the short end into a blade. My main hive tool now is a bread knife that works great for cutting away side wall connections but can't make it into the small space left by the front piece of scrap wood. the new tool should be able to fit and thus allow me to get right into the brood chamber without messing with the honey stores if I don't want to. 
I am definitely still learning, but I am very happy with my tbh's and would recommend them to anyone who is willing to put in a little extra work.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I started with a KTBH last year and really love that style hive. This past summer I tried a split into a Langstroth nuc but didn't like it. When the new queen failed to come back from mating and it started to look like it was going laying worker, I went ahead and shook the bees out and broke it down. I didn't like it enough that I refused to throw time and resources at it. If I had started with that type of hive I probably wouldn't have stuck with beekeeping. That said, there were some advantages to that hive type and with that in mind I plan on building a hybrid KTBH/Lang/Warre hive this winter.

I don't believe it makes the bees calmer but when working my TBH I was calmer. I believe it takes a bit more manipulation than a Lang, and certainly entails less lifting. I have had a couple comb collapses too. If you did a long Lang you could start with a split from your existing hives which would be nice.


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## fruitveggirl (Mar 8, 2013)

I can't compare because I don't have Langs. Also, this is my first year beekeeping, and I chose a TBH. However, I will try to address the main issues you brought up (from my limited experience.)

*Time:* I find that it takes about 45-60 minutes to do a complete inspection. If I'm inspecting only the honey area, then it takes less time. The frequency of my inspections has been based on what's going on in the hive. During the summer, when a lot was going on, I'd look in every 7-10 days. During dearth and in later Sept, every 10-14 days. However, having the hive in the backyard does make it a lot easier to inspect since I can do it on the spur of the moment. I don't have to plan a trip anywhere.

*Ease of working bees:* I can't really compare since I only know the TBH. Overall, I would say they're pretty easy to work. I used to use only water or sugar syrup to work them, but I had an incident in which I pulled the queen up with a bar, and all the bees followed her out. Even after I put the bar back in, they wouldn't follow her, so now, I always bring a lit smoker. I do agree with the others that putting the bars back can be tedious when the bees just don't want to go down. That is really the longest part of the inspection. I try to put one end of the bar down first right up against the previous bar, then I lower the rest of the bar a little at a time (as opposed to pushing it horizontally against the previous bar). I kind of force them down this way. I like the handled feather idea, though. Definitely going to try that.

Also, my particular experience has been a dream. I bought a TBH nuc, so the bees were already building straight when I got them. I never had cross comb issues this summer or problems with bees absconding or swarming. I did have one comb fall, but even that wasn't too big of a problem.

*Temperament:* I don't think TBHs necessarily make bees less pissy. I think friendly bees are more a combination of weather conditions, how calm and/or sweaty I am while inspecting, and luck of the draw. I have a friend who has had bees in Langs for 3 years and has NEVER been stung though she doesn't wear a jacket or gloves. Personally, I think she's must be putting valium in their sugar syrup. I wouldn't say my bees are pissy, but they are definitely not as laid back. I've been stung at least 10 times, though almost never during an inspection, which is weird. Also, I do find that the bees are generally pretty easy going when I'm inspecting their honey area. If I go into the brood nest, they tend to get a little grumpier, which seems understandable.

*Weight:* I think that this is where the TBH shines. My hive is on legs, so no bending. Each bar weighs about 8lbs max, so no heavy lifting.

Since you already have Langs, I think CrssSwift70's suggestion of a horizontal hive is a really good idea. I'm toying with that idea myself simply because I think I'd like to have the flexibility that standardization provides.

If you would like to see my reasons for choosing a TBH, you could read about them here.

Good luck!


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Keep the Langs and start some TBHs. No reason you can't have both.


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## Life is Good! (Feb 22, 2013)

As a middle-aged female with many, many responsibilities, I chose to build a TBH from the get-go. Frankly, heavy lifting of live (mad) insects was not in my interest - so a Lang and a Warre were out of the running. 

I've checked my TBH once a month since established in April. Installed April 20th, checked 3days later, checked 4 days later, checked at two weeks out, a month out and then once a month since then. Vacations and building a new chicken coop to prevent future problems with flooding in springtime sort of got in the way there also. Each hive takes about 40-60min to go through, depending on what I'm doing. The hardest part is getting the bees to go back into the hive. I take a couple blades of long grass and make an impromptu 'brush' that works pretty well. 

I like being able to go into the hive and not completely rip the roof off - just sliding a few bars this way or that way - that means that the hive isn't that disrupted and there's less chance of bees getting out of sorts. This type of management also means that keeping track of pieces and parts is much, much easier. Worst I've done is put a bar in opposite of what the bees had started. They fixed my 'error' to their design specs and we're no worse for wear!

I'm not in it for the honey. If I were, the Lang is the way to go. But I'm in it for pollination of orchards and gardens, so the honey is a bonus by-product. Much like raising my own hatched out chicks - I needed more hens for more eggs; the ****erals are 'bonus' for our table. Not the reason I'm doing it, but a nice benefit none-the-less.

I put our hives on legs, so limited bending. Down-side is the bees are also already at your waist; so if they're unhappy, they're closer to you too! But I like not having to lift and bend and deal with parts and pieces so much. 

I volunteered at a local apiary a few times to learn some good things. They have Langs. After using their Langs and seeing how 'traditional' beekeepers manage their bees - weekly inspections (which to me appeared to be ripping hives open), doing paper combines, making splits, trying to keep track of which hive has who's queen and where did THAT frame come from (or worse, where did THAT deep come from?!).....I decided a more minimal arrangement was in my interest. 

If the idea of raising queens, doing splits to earn some extra money, providing others with locally raised nucs.....if that's your interest - go with a Lang. 
If you're interested in having a few hives to help pollinate....TBH's are low cost wonderful alternative.

I'm a first year beek with 2 TBH's. I suspect I missed a swarm while on a long vacation. But other than that, the bees are managing nicely and going along beautifully!


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## HopCar (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm still in my first year of bee keeping and I've learned to hate the Langstroth hive. It is designed for commercial bee keeping and not for a guy like me who just wants to keep a hive in his yard to pollinate fruit trees. I just had a long lang made for me by South Florida Bee Supply. They did a really nice job. I'm doing some minor modifications and painting it. I built a stand that will put it at a height that is easy to work. I hope to move my Ladies into it next weekend. Seems like a much more civilized way to keep bees if you're not trying to make a living at it.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Little off thread, but it was mentioned putting a TBH bar back in the wrong way. My solution has been to take a can of spray paint, I stand at the rear of the hive and paint a quick line of paint on the right end of my bars, then no matter which hive I am inspecting I know just which way the bar goes.


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## fruitveggirl (Mar 8, 2013)

stan.vick said:


> Little off thread, but it was mentioned putting a TBH bar back in the wrong way. My solution has been to take a can of spray paint, I stand at the rear of the hive and paint a quick line of paint on the right end of my bars, then no matter which hive I am inspecting I know just which way the bar goes.


My solution is much like Stan.vick's but no paint. I used a sharpie to draw a line from the front of the hive to the back across the top of one end of the bars. So when I put them in, I know the ends of the bars with a line all belong together.


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## TheGeneralsBees (Feb 17, 2013)

> Little off thread, but it was mentioned putting a TBH bar back in the wrong way. My solution has been to take a can of spray paint, I stand at the rear of the hive and paint a quick line of paint on the right end of my bars, then no matter which hive I am inspecting I know just which way the bar goes.


I do the opposite. I regularly turn my bars around if they are a bit lopsided or begin to get crooked. Oftentimes this will create in combs are a bit closer than is optimal and the bees will adjust the comb to reestablish a proper beespace. As a result the bars in my hive can be moved about within the hive and between hives freely as they are all the same approximate shape and size.


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## fruitveggirl (Mar 8, 2013)

TheGeneralsBees said:


> I do the opposite. I regularly turn my bars around if they are a bit lopsided or begin to get crooked. Oftentimes this will create in combs are a bit closer than is optimal and the bees will adjust the comb to reestablish a proper beespace. As a result the bars in my hive can be moved about within the hive and between hives freely as they are all the same approximate shape and size.


Wow! I didn't realize they would do that. That's brilliant! Thanks for sharing that tip, TheGeneralsBees!


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