# Switching to Skeps



## susanknilans (Sep 21, 2016)

I'm on my third skep now. I'm exploring shifting all my six hives over to straw hives within two years. I'm really excited to see how these hives work for backyard bees. Here is a link with photos of the creation of my first, big skep: 

 

I hope I did the link right...


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Is that just for historical purposes?

Skeps are not even _legal_ here. It has to be a hive that can be inspected.


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## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

I have wanted to build a couple skeps and add some swarms to fill them. Like mentioned they are technically illegal to use in most states but that being said... how often has someone came to check your hives with removable frames? (that's what I thought) If you are a back yard beekeeper no one is going to care. Good luck and have fun.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Phoebee said:


> Is that just for historical purposes?
> 
> Skeps are not even _legal_ here. It has to be a hive that can be inspected.


True, skeps are not legal in Washington state. However, the state has no inspectors that I know of and only charges a small registration fee annually. As Yotebuster said, "no one is going to care".


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## Peter McDowell (Jul 24, 2016)

I'm curious as to what you think you or the bees will gain by using skeps?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

dudelt said:


> True, skeps are not legal in Washington state. However, the state has no inspectors that I know of and only charges a small registration fee annually. As Yotebuster said, "no one is going to care".


We usually have to beg to get an inspector to come. Which begs the point, how is the _beekeeper_ supposed to inspect their hive? Or harvest honey? For instance, how are you supposed to know you've got 20 new queen cells in there?

A reminder here, in the "good old days", the accepted method of honey harvest was to set some sulfur burning in the hive, kill all the bees, and destroy the comb. And I can't imagine any responsible beekeeper choosing that method today. In answer to "no one is going to care," I hope the beekeeper cares.

I can see using them as swarm traps, although the resulting comb would be a pain to move to a real hive body. I can see making one or two hives this way to document how beekeeping used to be.


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

Very interesting! Maybe they get better insulation than regular hive boxes? I wonder if I can build a mini skep for bumble bees.


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## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

Phoebee said:


> A reminder here, in the "good old days", the accepted method of honey harvest was to set some sulfur burning in the hive, kill all the bees, and destroy the comb. And I can't imagine any responsible beekeeper choosing that method today. In answer to "no one is going to care," I hope the beekeeper cares.


They didnt use sulfer to kill the bees they used suffer to kill the brood. They shook all the bees out of the skeps to be harvested and added the bees into the steps they were going to overwinter. After the bees are removed they then set the brood over a sulfer fire which killed the brood.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

In the 90's and Oughts, we had an escape from AFB, as Varroa killed the hives faster than the (slow) AFB could establish.
Currently, as more Varroa resistant bees come into common use, we will see a return of AFB. This is already happening in my region. The focus of the infection incidents are lightly experienced hobbyists. 

In my state, I don't see labor intensive (and politically unpopular) inspection regimes re-establishing. This means that AFB incidence will sky-rocket, and the bee industry will move offshore.


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## ch.cool (Aug 22, 2012)

dudelt said:


> True, skeps are not legal in Washington state. However, the state has no inspectors that I know of and only charges a small registration fee annually. As Yotebuster said, "no one is going to care".


Is the inspection and thereof the removable frames not for disease prevention? Do we not care about European and American foulbrood anymore? I’m not long enough into beekeeping to remember the burning hives all over the place, but maybe some old-timers can jump in. If I look at the situation in Northwest Ohio with an inspection program and American foulbrood coming over the Michigan border (no program), then I don’t think the inspector is just a government gimmick.

Christian


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Here's another thought, specifically for the amateur backyard beekeeper.

If your bees are down in a skep, and you can't pull frames to look at them, how the heck are you every going to experience the joy of beekeeping? Watching them busily at work? See the new comb they've drawn? Spot the queen, see new eggs, watch new bees emerge from their cells? Catch them communicating with their various dances?

Skeps limit one to that dreadful condition of bee-having, as opposed to bee-keeping. And what's the point?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Phoebee said:


> how is the _beekeeper_ supposed to inspect their hive? Or harvest honey? For instance, how are you supposed to know you've got 20 new queen cells in there?


 watch the whole series https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2IjNBbLESY
commercial migratory skep beekeeping in the late 70 early 80s, shows inspections, cutting queen cells, mating nucs, etc . 


Phoebee said:


> A reminder here, in the "good old days", the accepted method of honey harvest was to set some sulfur burning in the hive, kill all the bees, and destroy the comb. And I can't imagine any responsible beekeeper choosing that method today. .


There have been plenty in recent times that run langs that way and start fresh each spring with packages
if you watch the videos, you will see them shake out the hives and make fall packages with the bees so only the brood is killed in that example
There is no harm in treating a hive as a head of livestock and sending it to slaughter when it has fattened. Also in that case, harvesting the dinks instead of trying to nurse/feed them through the winter…. No worce then going “bond” on your yard realy. 

The dinks and the gamblers that won are culled from the yard and your increase is made off the overwintered stock, not so bad when you think about it

Let us not forget skeps were often Eked (supered and nadied ), split in to a nuc and overwintered, etc.
The beekeepers of old were not stupid, if they could make enuf increase to cover their losses/harvests they were fine, if not they worked other methods. 




ch.cool said:


> Is the inspection and thereof the removable frames not for disease prevention?


Detection, not prevention, one can argue that movable frames have been the biggest spreader of disease.

bees work from the top down, honey up top, brood at the bottom, flip a skep over and you can see the brood and its condition. Need a better look? Cut out a section of comb.




JWChesnut said:


> This is already happening in my region. The focus of the infection incidents are lightly experienced hobbyists.


Can you explain more?
You seem to be laying it at the feet of backyard beeks, I would counter if sick bees weren’t being moved around it would be much less of an issue. 
Not a shot at the commercial guys, just don’t see a stationary backyard Beek spreading infection all over the state. 
Not a shot at you either as I have read enuf of your posts to know you’re not going to make a statement you’re not prepared to back up, I am truly interested in your reply


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Really cool videos how they use to keep bees in skeps, it truly is an art;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCt6bV7owYs


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## frogpondwarrior (Aug 2, 2016)

Skeps are not legal here as well. However we do have an active inspector because we are right on the border. The province provides free beetle traps and they are around several times a year checking for results. SHB is not here yet but..... Andrew Dewey is just 40 miles south and he has them. He once told me they are not a problem here because of the climate. So as a home bee keeper with a skep I would get my knuckles slapped. Any kind of hive that cannot be opened and inspected is a no go here. I like that he is around. To date my best source of hands on info even if it is sparse.


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## susanknilans (Sep 21, 2016)

Glad to see such a nice discussion going! I'm going to answer in summary, so I don't ramble too much:

1-I'm a "preservation" beekeeper. The kind you (dismissively-ouch) call a "bee haver." However, Thomas Seeley, the bee-god, is speaking the bee-haver language these days: Bees do best with less intervention. I get my bee jollies from watching at the entrance, gathering my swarms, teaching, weaving my hives, and going in to check on the girls when absolutely necessary.

2-Honey? Wax? Propolis? I get all I need from deadouts. Sadly, don't we all?

3-When I want to move my bees out of the hive into a fresh skep (so that combs get refreshed after a few years) I drum them into a new hive. It takes awhile, but they run like water once they get the message.

4-The shape and structure of these hives is limited only by the imagination of the maker. I have seen them woven like suitcases with frames inside, and like log rounds with bars (removable if need be) across the top, so the hive can be made perfectly legal. My current Sun Hive has 9 removable bars. 

5-What I am hoping to gain in this method of beekeeping is BETTER INSULATION and better temperature control within the hive. I've been reading along at forums for a long time now, and I can't count the number of keepers looking for better ways to insulate their bees for the winter. Tarping, wrapping, cozies, straw bales. Now, what all this told me was that our current wooden hives---all of them: Langs, TBs, Warres---are thin little things that do not provide the protection from the temps outside. None of them provide the protection from the outside elements (heat OR cold) that bees need. We are always rigging our hives, playing firehouse management in the winter. 

_An inch of coiled straw is equal to the thermal value of 6 INCHES of wood_. Now, I don't know about you, but I cannot be lifting logs around in my yard. So I weave my straw hives very tight and very thick: 2 inches. So my lightweight hives provide the thermal mass of 12-inches of wood!! Now, THAT grabs my attention!


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

susanknilans said:


> _An inch of coiled straw is equal to the thermal value of 6 INCHES of wood_. Now, I don't know about you, but I cannot be lifting logs around in my yard. So I weave my straw hives very tight and very thick: 2 inches. So my lightweight hives provide the thermal mass of 12-inches of wood!! Now, THAT grabs my attention!


Where did you get that number? I ask because I'm pretty well versed in heat transfer and insulation. An inch of high performance closed cell building foams (EPS or polyisocyanurate) would have the insulation you suggest (about R5 to R6). Dry straw might be somewhat better than a similar thickness of wood, but not 6x. Wet straw would be useless. Tightly compacted straw? As a rule, compacting fiber insulation reduces R value. You would have to strike a balance between making it tight enough to block wind but not crush the straw.

If you care to test this, I could send you a heat flow sensor.

Gladly, we do not get all we need from deadouts. Particularly my more experienced friends who rarely get deadouts. The few I get are usually dinks that died with nearly nothing in the hive.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL) conducted the test in their hot-box test chamber. The wall being tested was built using 19-inch two-string wheat straw bales laid flat and stuccoed on both sides. After a two-month drying-out period, the wall was put in the test chamber. The interior temperature was raised to 70°F, while the exterior temperature remained at 0°F for two weeks, in order to reach steady-state heat flow conditions. After this two-week period, the 19-inch wall had an R-value of 27.5, or 1.45 per inch.


so very close inch for inch with wood, and moisture will drop that number, hence why skeps were usually on a covered stand


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Phoebee said:


> Which begs the point, how is the _beekeeper_ supposed to inspect their hive? Or harvest honey? For instance, how are you supposed to know you've got 20 new queen cells in there?
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> I can see using them as swarm traps, although the resulting comb would be a pain to move to a real hive body. I can see making one or two hives this way to document how beekeeping used to be.


as a swarm trap I kind of like the idea. How do I learn to build one? I've had a couple of swarm traps grow legs, presumably human . It isn't just the cost of the woodware, its the prep time.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

IIRC, somebody on the forum had a decorative skep out, maybe it was on their porch, and a swarm found it. Which is kinda cool. One must admit, while the labor to put one together is probably not all that different from a Langstroth hive, materials have got to be as cheap as it gets.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Phoebee said:


> Here's another thought, specifically for the amateur backyard beekeeper.
> 
> If your bees are down in a skep, and you can't pull frames to look at them, how the heck are you every going to experience the joy of beekeeping? Watching them busily at work? See the new comb they've drawn? Spot the queen, see new eggs, watch new bees emerge from their cells? Catch them communicating with their various dances?
> 
> Skeps limit one to that dreadful condition of bee-having, as opposed to bee-keeping. And what's the point?


Agree!!


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I didn't find that thread but I did find the one mentioning coating the straw with wattles and dung, I think the romance of a skep swarm trap just departed. I park that near someone's house it will find a dumpster quick I am sure


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## susanknilans (Sep 21, 2016)

I was quoted the 6-inch figure by a master weaver. I'll go dig deeper into this... But even if it is the same as wood, I could not manage wooden bee hive boxes that were a full two-inches thick.

And yes, they are cheap to make. I get all my grasses locally. Cut 'em, dry 'em, weave 'em.

Before I put them out, I put a mixture of cow manure, clay, and wood ash to protect them from weather and from UV sun rays. And yes, these need to be kept under cover.

I'm not saying these are for everyone, but for me--with a total of six hives in an urban yard---they are just what I'm looking for. Also, I live in the pacific northwest and because of the drenching and sometimes ceaseless rains, I keep my hives all under cover, so I don't need to create any other place for these hives than I already have.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

susanknilans said:


> I was quoted the 6-inch figure by a master weaver. I'll go dig deeper into this... But even if it is the same as wood, I could not manage wooden bee hive boxes that were a full two-inches thick.


You don't want to manage them anyway so what does it matter?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Skeps, preservation beekeeper, the audacious Tom Seeley.
Oh boy.


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## susanknilans (Sep 21, 2016)

You know, my yard is multi-level, and getting hives into it now requires dollies and steps. Even if I don't go into the hives often, to remove some honey, or even to clean up a deadout, is not something I can do with heavy hives, and multiple boxes.


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## susanknilans (Sep 21, 2016)

Okay, here is a link to a blog in the UK where they studied the insulation value of a variety of hives. Skeps rated just below log hives, which were the best. This piece has some interesting info on hive ventilation.

https://oxnatbees.wordpress.com/2015/01/25/warm-hives/


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## susanknilans (Sep 21, 2016)

You know, that is just plain mean...


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## Peter McDowell (Jul 24, 2016)

2" of straw is equal to 12" of wood? I would like to see where that number comes from. Sounds very high.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

susanknilans said:


> You know, that is just plain mean...


what is mean?


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

And I remain Skeptical

==McBee7==


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## awebber96 (May 28, 2012)

I have watched all the German skep videos online, too. And while they are fascinating, I find it foolish to simply believe that something that is old-timey is therefore better. You'll note from that video that the old German fellow is described as being a sort of Last of the Mohicans, and they note how all his skeps came from his beekeeping neighbors who got out of skeps.

One must also keep in mind that when Langstroth developed the movable frame hive, it BLEW PEOPLES MINDS. It was so clearly superior to everything else beekeepers had at the time that everyone stole his idea. Its regarded as one of the greatest inventions of all time.

In my view, skeps suffer from three drawbacks that should keep even the most experienced beekeeper from considering them as anything more than a antiquated novelty -- and a very illegal novelty in most places, at that. (1) You cant move frames from strong hives to weak hives; which was the main advantage that Langstoth's invention had on everything else. (2) Because you have to crush and strain all your skep liquid honey, you will lose all that wax comb, which is a critical value to beekeepers-especially newer ones. (3) The size is so limited that you will have swarm after swarm after swarm from your skep and there is no way to control it by say, opening the broodnest or cutting out queen cells or adding a super or anything else. The German skep videos show how those guys have to sit outside and watch their 100s of hives for a solid week to catch all the swarms. Are you really doing that for your six skeps? Its our duty as good neighbors to keep our hives from swarming if we can.

Look, if you want to churn your own butter or build a log cabin--go nuts. But lets not confuse antiquated technology with being superior or more efficient. And lets not be flip about breaking the law just because you don't think you'll get caught. If you don't like the laws, change them, but don't risk giving beekeepers a bad rep by flouting the law


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## ulimann (Feb 17, 2015)

Hey Susan sounds like a fun project. Your R values are a little off but regardless your way ahead of the standard lang with 3/4 stock.Plus you get to be creative and think outside the box.Enjoy the process and maybe post some pictures when your done and disregard some of the ankle biters here uli


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

susanknilans said:


> You know, my yard is multi-level, and getting hives into it now requires dollies and steps. Even if I don't go into the hives often, to remove some honey, or even to clean up a deadout, is not something I can do with heavy hives, and multiple boxes.


East Coast beekeepers have taken a liking to 8-frame mediums. They're especially popular among women, precisely because the supers are lighter. 

Anybody needing to move a booming hive full of honey needs some kind of equipment unless they break it down. I can carry a nuc with two medium supers, but that's about my limit.


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## awebber96 (May 28, 2012)

Also, with regard to the OP's concern about weight and physical ability, a full skep weighs quite a bit, and you have to move the whole thing in one go. I can't imagine that 8-frame Langstroth mediums and shallows would be more physically demanding (they even have handles!). And unlike skeps, a beekeeper can move a box a few frames at a time.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

awebber


> And lets not be flip about breaking the law just because you don't think you'll get caught. If you don't like the laws, change them, but don't risk giving beekeepers a bad rep by flouting the law


Although things that become popular and lots of poeple breaking the law is how most laws are in the end supported enough to be changed. In fact through history thats about the only way something that was a law got changed. I am not saying that the removable frame law needs changed or not changed, Though if the advantages that you mention of the lang invention might mean the law is obsoleete anyway, as most bee keepers will move that way anyway and the ones that don't Probly shouldn't be messed with.
Just a differrent veiw of what should or should not be regulated.
JMHO
gww

Ps And I may or may not flout the law, I do have one warre hive built that might have a swarm move into it some day. I will not worry who I give a bad name too if it happens and wont feel bad about breaking the law and don't expect to be messed with just like I don't expect the goverment to make me destroy a hive that might be in a tree on my land.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Instering link, there study shows KTBH are warmer then nationals.... who would have thunk, might be a reason for long langs in cold climates

You all shouldn't be Debby Downer on the OPs livening history project, there were commercial skep apiarys 40 years ago. If it could be done commercially 40 years ago, it can be done at a hobby level today. 
It is unwise to thumb your nose at things that worked for thousands of years till going out of style a generation or 2 ago. If you do that important lessons will be be forgot. 
Watch a MP leture, how many times has overwintering nucs been lost to history and rediscovered? How many set in their way oldschoolers thought MP was cracked in the head and there was no was no way a colony that small could over winter much less prosper come spring.?
I my self would think skeps are too much work, they seem to be very labor intensive.

As for Mr audacious, there are several other study's to back that view. The Post varroa feral is of a very different genetic make up then the pre varroa feral and different from the currant commercial sotck http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...fference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/

As such post varroa ferals are behaving deferentially and seems to be surviving better in a smaller cavity, surviving 26 months un mannaged in a 31L pulp swarm trap vs the 14 months of pre varroa ferals https://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publication/?seqNo115=220169

more or less the ferals went threw the bond, Randy Olver says


> The “be tough or die” approach (Bond Method) of bee breeding certainly works, but is crude, and often selects for bees that have undesirable characteristics—such as small colony size,


A smaller size colony/hive keeps poking its head up as a survival trait in the post mite world 

Not saying Seeley is right, but it deserves a 2nd look and not dismissed out of hand



awebber96 said:


> You cant move frames from strong hives to weak hives; which was the main advantage that Langstoth's invention had on everything else.


true...but you also don't move the diseases around from hive to hive either, you harvest the weak hive and whatever made it weak (genetics or diseases) is removed from your apiary, makes selection of your breeder stock easy 



awebber96 said:


> The size is so limited that you will have swarm after swarm after swarm from your skep and there is no way to control it by say, opening the broodnest or cutting out queen cells


Watch the video again, they do just that  https://youtu.be/GLuZQbj5CPo?t=13m57s


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We have a skep that has been in the family since the late 1800s. It is low and wide, not tall and narrow like all of those pictured of late. 

Yes, I believe there would be an increased chance of transmitting AFB with a skep, especially if the neophyte does not know what it smells like or looks like.

I also bet that a good lawyer today could recover damages for an infected beekee[er from a skep owner found to have AFB. 

Roland Diehnelt
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## ep-bees1984 (Jul 26, 2016)

congratulations susan, your going backwards in time. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO LOGICAL REASON TO KEEP BEES IN A HIVE CONSISTING OF HAY AND COW EXCREMENT!!!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

ep-bees1984 said:


> THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO LOGICAL REASON TO KEEP BEES IN A HIVE THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO LOGICAL REASON TO KEEP BEES IN A HIVE [HIGHLIGHT]CONSISTING OF HAY[/HIGHLIGHT] AND COW EXCREMENT!!!


Don't let the _facts_ get in the way of a good rant! :lpf:

Those skeps are made out of *STRAW*! 


susanknilans said:


> So I weave my[HIGHLIGHT] straw hives [/HIGHLIGHT]very tight and very thick:


And yes, there is a real, verifiable difference between hay and straw.

Straw is just fiber with little nutritional value, essentially the leftovers after the grain crop is harvested; whereas hay _IS the crop_ and relatively high in protein. Read the details here: http://www.usaforage.org/products/straw-vs-hay/

Straw typically has a lower moisture content than hay, and straw is slower to decompose than hay.

.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Don't let the _facts_ get in the way of a good rant! :lpf:
> 
> Those skeps are made out of *STRAW*!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link rader,
I asked a local feed and farm supply store clerk a few years ago. What was the difference between hay and straw and he replied, "1.50". I laughed and wondered who was the idiot, him or me? Lol


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

ep-bees1984 said:


> congratulations susan, your going backwards in time THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO LOGICAL REASON TO KEEP BEES IN A HIVE CONSISTING OF HAY AND COW EXCREMENT!!!


 yes, but let us not forget 99% of backyard beeks keep(or have lol) bees for emotional reasons, not logical ones. It would be cheaper in the long run for most to just buy the honey in bulk. "hobbies" are not about logic!

The rifle has been the "modern" way to hunt for longer than the lang has been out, yet people still go "backwards in time" and hunt with the archaic bow and arrow. 

foaming at the mouth and worshiping the alter of technology and industry is the flipside of foaming at the mouth at the alter of holistic/spiritual natural beekeeping. 
both need to look to the middle ground and get rid of this taliban beek crap.


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## 357 (May 2, 2016)

ch.cool said:


> Is the inspection and thereof the removable frames not for disease prevention? Do we not care about European and American foulbrood anymore? I’m not long enough into beekeeping to remember the burning hives all over the place, but maybe some old-timers can jump in. If I look at the situation in Northwest Ohio with an inspection program and American foulbrood coming over the Michigan border (no program), then I don’t think the inspector is just a government gimmick.
> 
> Christian


This is the first I've heard that Michigan is some massive AFB breeding pool. I'm a n00b, but none of the 80-100 members of my local club has mentioned it as being an issue.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

msl said:


> foaming at the mouth and worshiping the alter of technology and industry is the flipside of foaming at the mouth at the alter of holistic/spiritual natural beekeeping.
> both need to look to the middle ground and get rid of this taliban beek crap.


Foaming at the mouth? Seriously? This is a beekeeping forum dedicated to people sharing knowledge and experience. The OP is sharing skep building and most of the rest of us are saying that experience suggests this is a dubious idea. Overall, I'd say it is a reasonably civil exchange of opinion. As always with beekeeping, if you ask three beekeepers you will get five opinions.

As for spiritual beekeeping, may I point out the Langstroth was a preacher? You can experience the spiritual side of beekeeping without skeps, which I should point out don't exist in nature either. Few of us keep bees in hollows in trees.

I can't say you're making a "straw man" argument. But definitely a "straw skep" argument.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Phoebee said:


> Foaming at the mouth? Seriously?


maybe a bit strong worded.... but when someone starts typing in all caps and absolutes..
There are no absolutes in bees...

if I posted on here 5 years ago and said I wanted to start a commercial queen rearing operation with warre hives, what would have the response been? My guess is a whole bunch of naysayers, because no one had done it. 

likewise I would hazard a guess that no one giving advice has any 1st hand experience with skeps. 
If this forum is truly dedicated to sharing knowledge and experience, why not support the OP and offer advice to give them the best shot (things like you have to flip it over and cut QC to keep it from blinking out)? wouldn't it be great, if this time next year there will be some one here with 1st hand experience to share? 

I have no interest in keeping skeps, but would love to read a 1st hand account of an attempt to do so in the modern era.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

msl said:


> I have no interest in keeping skeps, but would love to read a 1st hand account of an attempt to do so in the modern era.


This is why my first question was if this was being done for some kind of historical purpose. Case in point, at Colonial Williamsburg, here in Virginia, they sell skeps in a souvenir market. They'll tell you right off that they're only for decoration. Meanwhile, there are several Langstroth hives around the town, placed there by the governing historical outfit. The historians are usually sticklers for being period correct, and Langstroth hives are not. I suspect they'd like to have a few operating skeps for historical reasons. I suspect the State Apiarist has had a talk with them about it, and they probably could not find a beekeeper willing to do it. Their official stance is, forgetaboudit. This is one of the places I can see giving it a try on a limited scale.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Some people build bird houses and get no product from the birds. They don't go in and rob the birds of their eggs or inspect said birds. Sometimes it's not about what someone is getting out of the deal. If skeps make you happy, keep on skepping. I don't think you're hurting anyone.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

ep-bees1984 said:


> congratulations susan, your going backwards in time.


If the Flow Hive is what the present time offers, I dig my hands into cow sh*t without hesitation to plaster those beautiful straw bee snuggery. :thumbsup:

PS: Please use only Spring cow dung, that one that comes from fresh green Spring grass. To get satisfying results.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> If the Flow Hive is what the present time offers, I dig my hands into cow sh*t without hesitation to plaster those beautiful straw bee snuggery. :thumbsup:
> 
> PS: Please use only Spring cow dung, that one that comes from fresh green Spring grass. To get satisfying results.


+1


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Billboard said:


> +1


And wear gloves please....


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Someone wrote:

likewise I would hazard a guess that no one giving advice has any 1st hand experience with skeps. 

Guess again. One neat thing is that on a small one, you can walk up and lift up the skep, hold it over your head, and take a peak. Without the snap and jar of cracking a lid, the bees stay very calm.


Crazy Roland


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

While I would not want 6 skeps in my backyard, I'd love to have one just for kicks. Sounds like fun.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Nothing better than first nose experience...


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

There is a beauty in every old craft.


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## ep-bees1984 (Jul 26, 2016)

msl said:


> The rifle has been the "modern" way to hunt for longer than the lang has been out, yet people still go "backwards in time" and hunt with the archaic bow and arrow.
> 
> .


mmmmmm hmmmmmm, and while I drag out 10 deer a year they drag one out every 10 years.


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## ep-bees1984 (Jul 26, 2016)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> If the Flow Hive is what the present time offers, I dig my hands into cow sh*t without hesitation to plaster those beautiful straw bee snuggery. :thumbsup:
> 
> PS: Please use only Spring cow dung, that one that comes from fresh green Spring grass. To get satisfying results.


this I agree with... the flow hive consist of more cow dung than a skep. I think skeps are pretty, I also think they are useless.


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

Hmmm, maybe I will open a bloodletting clinic next to my skeptical apiary.

And perhaps I will flavor rotting meat will fly larva and use that to ferment vegetables and cheese.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>And yes, there is a real, verifiable difference between hay and straw.

I accidently ended up with a bale of straw in the horse paddock once. The horses never touched it... yes, there is a real discernable difference. Mice, rabbets, horses, will all eat hay... they won't eat straw...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Found a picture of a skep with 12x the insulation of 1" wood:








http://previews.123rf.com/images/my...h-dried-grass-straw-as-a-moun-Stock-Photo.jpg


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## johnbeejohn (Jun 30, 2013)

My horses eat straw all the tice and it's not because there starving


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

ep-bees1984 said:


> I drag out 10 deer a year they drag one out every 10 years.


why take a cross country road trip when you can fly right? but for some the efficiency of the outcome in not the point, the journey is.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

ep-bees1984 said:


> mmmmmm hmmmmmm, and while I drag out 10 deer a year they drag one out every 10 years.


If someone is getting one deer every decade they're just a bad hunter. It's got nothing to do with their weapon. And just because someone's killing 'ten a year' doesn't mean they're a great hunter. It's pretty easy to kill a deer with a rifle. Really easy actually.


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## zonedar (May 14, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> If someone is getting one deer every decade they're just a bad hunter.


Or it's because they live under the auspices of the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

zonedar said:


> Or it's because they live under the auspices of the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife.


Well, presumably the post was in a place where someone could kill ten deer a year legally. 

You're right though.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Roland said:


> likewise I would hazard a guess that no one giving advice has any 1st hand experience with skeps.


And I wildly guess all the folks commenting condescending on skeps never really learned to work skeps. For those who can't operate a certain tool, the tool is useless.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

that is what I meant in the statement roland quoted me on


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## awebber96 (May 28, 2012)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> And I wildly guess all the folks commenting condescending on skeps never really learned to work skeps. For those who can't operate a certain tool, the tool is useless.


We don't learn how to use the skeps in the U.S. (for the most part) because they are illegal in most states, including the state of the original poster. Why are they illegal? Because they cannot be fully, readily inspected (either by the government inspector or the beekeeper)...especially for EFB and AFB.

We all rely on each other (our beekeeping neighbors) to keep our hives disease free as much as possible. Those who are flippant about such things likely never saw a pit full of burning hives because FB was spotted in the area (it happened to my grandfather). Google it to remind yourself what could happen to YOUR hives because of your neighbors' ignorant decisions. I don't think its funny or cute to break the law, and I don't think anyone has the right to act illegally in ways that pose real risk to others.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If the mere fact that some bees happen to be in skeps threatens neighboring beekeepers hives with AFB, then why it it that '_wild_' hives (out in the woods, etc) are not an equal AFB threat? Why isn't there a hue and cry to eradicate all wild hives? :scratch:

Let us note that beekeepers seem to routinely violate Federal pesticide laws in concocting and applying ... uhhh ... _unlicensed_ home-brew pesticide concoctions to hives.

Frankly, if those (_uninspectable_) skep hives were instead in (_uninspected_) Lang style hives, is there any difference at all in terms of AFB risk? :s


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

As early as abby warre it was pointed out that foul brood outbreaks increased with the use of framed hives. Positions have been taken that inspecting more regularly cools the brood and makes them more subseptable to disease due to the added stress. All the cautions mentioned in controling the disease mention robbing and moving frames and equiptment between hives. It is mentioned to always check a dead out for afb which can be done with fixed hives. 

It is pointed out that prodution of honey is increased very well with the management practices allowed with movable hives. 

Tom seely studies of wild swarms indicate that varroa is being managed in wild hives and those are not movable frame. 

Mike palmer has a vidio showing nuc inspecting by just looking at the combs from the bottom of the hive and being able to see enough to decide wether a furthur look is needed..

Funds from some states governments have been reduce for state inspectors while the amount of individual people keeping bees has increassed. It doesn't matter if you could inspect due to moveable frames if you are not inclined to and if you had fixed frames and it was your intention to stay on top of things, there is a way.

As far as breaking the law. Even the government is not interested if they are reducing rescources and they might not be totally correct with the law anyway.

Most will want to make 5 times the honey but those that don't and go a differrent rout, that wont make them bad bee keepers or a danger to anyone else in the comparative big picture.

If the bees in the trees are doing better then managed hives, How can we say that frames fix everything. 

I am using langs but am not going to feel bad if I decide to do bees in some other way no matter what the law is. I might also bee the mite bomb in the area untill I lose too many hives and then I might be the guy thats hives are getting mite bombed.

One other thing. If a hive has frames and afb or no frames and afb, it wont matter as bees and all will still be burned.

I do not believe that fixed frames will nessisarily cause more spreding of afb then some one with framed hives that just takes the honey and if a hive doesn't grow just splits it and sells the movable frames to others.

I am new enough to not know what I am talking about but this is what I lean towards right now. I am willing to be taught by those that have more experiance but it will have to be explained what I am missing (which could be plenty).

I believe there are still laws in places that say every house has to have a spitoon. I worry more about what my peers that sit on a jury might think then the actual law I might be breaking.
I would never break a law to hurt some one on purpose. 
Cheers
gww

Ps raider you beat me to it and made your point with a lot fewer words. I am jealous.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

The calls for beekeeper registration and beeyard registration databases will be and should be getting louder and louder.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

people can yell all they want about a hive being inspectable, but without any laws saying you HAVE to inspect, it kinda useless except to prevent the movement of disease from one area to another...IE a bee inspector inspection before movement... neither has any effect on a back yard beek
For the record, skeps ARE fully inspectable, they just don't have frames


> if a skep does need to be checked for foul brood, the combs can be cut out and inspected one by one as the cross sticks or "spleets" are slowly
> removed. A skep comb cutting knife that is usually used for harvesting is the right tool for the job. It consists of a blade that protrudes at a right angle from the end of a long handle. The combs can be carefully put back again if no sign of disease is present. The bees wouldn't thank you for it, and the bee inspector probably wouldn't either, but the job can be done


http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/Chris Park Article 3.pdf




clyderoad said:


> The calls for beekeeper registration and beeyard registration databases will be and should be getting louder and louder.


along with calls for written weekly inspection reports on every commerciale colony :lpf:


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Clyde


> The calls for beekeeper registration and beeyard registration databases will be and should be getting louder and louder.


That might be true but then again when I see all the griping and moaning about the gov tactics to get the surveys they send out to some, filled out, I doubt it will be a majoritie of beekeepers calling for it. It might be more then it was though.
Cheers
gww


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

msl said:


> along with calls for written weekly inspection reports on every commerciale colony :lpf:
> You can yell all you want about a hive being inspectable, but without any laws saying you HAVE to inspect, it kinda useless except to prevent the movement of disease from one area to another...IE a bee inspector inspection before movement... neither has any effect on a back yard beek
> 
> 
> ...


Seems like you are getting a bit ahead of yourself. :lpf:
I never did mention inspections or even removable frames. :lpf:
For the record, I speak of beekeeper and beeyard registrations, did you even read what I wrote?:lpf:


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

gww said:


> Clyde
> 
> 
> That might be true but then again when I see all the griping and moaning about the gov tactics to get the surveys they send out to some, filled out, I doubt it will be a majoritie of beekeepers calling for it. It might be more then it was though.
> ...


The belly aching is due more to how the data is collected, not that the data is collected.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> Seems like you are getting a bit ahead of yourself. I never did mention inspections or even removable frames


so then why would you think it was intended for you? and not the people who posted before you saying you can't inspect a skep and it will be a breeding ground for the 6th plage of beekeeping?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

msl said:


> so then why would you think it was intended for you? and not the people who posted before you saying you can't inspect a skep and it will be a breeding ground for the 6th plage of beekeeping?


Because it's addressed to me, isn't it?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Clyde


> The belly aching is due more to how the data is collected, not that the data is collected.


Ha ha, Yes it is the how part that might scare off the its ok if the data is collected part.

Cheers
gww


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> Because it's addressed to me, isn't it?


sorry no...

I have edited it for to cairfie intent


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

*Incidence of American foulbrood infections in feral honey bee colonies in New Zealand*
R. M. Goodwin , A. Ten Houten & J. H. Perry (1994)
New Zealand Journal of Zoology, 21:3, 285-287, DOI: 10.1080/03014223.1994.9517996
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03014223.1994.9517996

Quote:
_Perhaps feral colonies are at greater risk of contracting American foulbrood disease from managed colonies rather than the other way around.

This survey suggests that honey bees in their natural state may be virtually free of American foulbrood disease._

If you follow Tom Seeley's experiments one might get an idea, why that is.

Of course you can't pull all the combs in a skep for a visual assessment. But is this necessary for testing for foulbrood? When we test for foulbrood here, which we do on a yearly basis here in our German apiaries, we take samples from the honey dome right above the broodnest. That you can do in a skep, too.

If a skep is illegal by law, there is no discussion. It is illegal. Period. 

We are not allowed to hunt with bow&arrow here, it is illegal. It is a pity, but you have to respect the laws. But we are allowed to keep bees in skeps. One can't have it all. :no:


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Bernhard


> If a skep is illegal by law, there is no discussion. It is illegal. Period.





> but you have to respect the laws


I don't know how things work over there or maby even over here but have a bit of a differrent view of what lack of respect of the law might mean.

If no one in america is being cited or arrested or convicted then maby the wording of a law on the books may not have been tested. There are many avenues here to make or change laws. Sometimes laws are made and then tested to the supreem court and then found unconstitutional and recended. It is not a lack of respect if some one test a law and this is expecially true if the law is later found to be lacking and reversed. This is why we live with a goverment that is by the people for the people. It is people participation that forms the laws and tweeks them. It does not add up to a disrespect but more a knowing how the system works and being able to participate. People were selling honey in fassions that were not compleetly lawful. Lots of states have adjusted thier laws on the books to reflect the non harmfull practices of the people in those states rather then enforce something on people that were not hurting anyone.

It was not a disrespect of the law that caused this but more of a law reflecting what was respectful to the people.

So if the goverment is not citing and the courts are not convicting and the words that make up a law are not tested then it is not a law untill enforced and may be changed due to the trying to enforce it.

A good point was made by raider that bee keepers find self help treatments because it is common sence to protect your stuff even if the law take awhile to reflect what is being done. Laws are not supposed to hurt people that are not doing wrong and should be adjusted if they are. 

That position does not add up to disrespect.

Sience sometimes catches up to current laws and they are changed after the sience not before because the wheels of justise moves slowly.

Just a differrent view from someone who thinks he has a say in how he is governed. Not that that say garrentees a win but it does garrentee that it is not nessasarily disrespectful to participate.

Just my thoughts.
Cheers
gww

PS I love the imformation in your post. I also love all the pictures you post on this site.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

It is obvious that the memories of beekeeping before Sulfa was invented have mostly faded away. I have a magazine article from the 20's talking about my Great Grandfather and how when a hive with AFB was found, it was instantly burned, but after a little Zyklon was slid in the front entrance on a hive tool.

I predict, that with the increase in new beekeepers, and the new requirement to get a prescription for Terramycin, that we will have a dramatic increase in AFB in the near future, returning to levels not seen since the demise of the skep.

Crazy Roland


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I do have a serious question. Wouldn't something like this midigate the need for full brood inspection and needing removable frames at least for foulbrood?

https://www.mannlakeltd.com/afb-test-kit-american-foulbrood

If it was found that skeps really made bees somehow more healthy and you had a kit, would that change some ideals towards skeps in situations where honey prodution was not the key goal?
Thanks
gww


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## ep-bees1984 (Jul 26, 2016)

gww said:


> If it was found that skeps really made bees somehow more healthy and you had a kit, would that change some ideals towards skeps in situations where honey prodution was not the key goal?
> Thanks
> gww


 keeping bees in cow dung hives is not going too mysteriously make bees more healthy or cure afb. im sure, however, that you might find a wiki file written by a professional D A that will state otherwise.


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## frogpondwarrior (Aug 2, 2016)

Skeps are not legal here. At my bee course last year they had an unused skep on site for viewing. Here you have to (no cost) register you hive numbers and locations. The inspector can come on you property any time for an inspection. 
During his presentation at the course he stated he would confiscate all skeps. Not worth my time or effort. 
I would be a little worried about advertising them on this site. No doubt some of the inspectors are bee keepers as well and visit this site frequently.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I bought a skep, 
Might shake some bees in because it looks cool


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Ian
I built the warre for the same reason and I might shake some bees in or just bait it and let nature take its course. I like the langs but if you are just playing around and that is your fun, then trying little extra things is kinda neat. I have two long langs that I don't have bees in either but I do put lemon grass oil in them every spring. I will let the langs be my bread and butter and the other stuff be my fun. Sometimes it is fun just to build something differrent then you have been building.

Cheers
gww


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm too lazy to make a skep, where'd you buy it Ian? (do they ship?)


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Uh, it'll be hard to find a real skep. You can't buy them over here in Germany. Those you can buy are usually either only for display at farmer markets (just show) or they are about 60+ years old, only repaired and usually in good shape if they come from good hands (dirty hands that are usually).

Thickness of a skep at the bottom must be 3 inches, height around 16 inches. Top of the skep better be flat, not roundish. 

Wonder where you get all the tools and add-ons for those skeps. For example the extension rings to add up to the height. 




























Or see: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?278986-Making-a-skep&p=914360#post914360 and following posts.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

thanks for the link, lots of good stuff there
Do you have any more info on the Kanitz straw box hives, maybe ruff internal dimensions? and or how it was managed?
Not that I want to play with cow dung and straw, but Seeleys talk of running smaller volume hives has me looking at the proven hives of old, there smaller volumes and how they were managed it would seem the Kanitz style would be ripe for a modern (aka US legal) plywood and topbar variant as an experiment.


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## 357 (May 2, 2016)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> If the mere fact that some bees happen to be in skeps threatens neighboring beekeepers hives with AFB, then why it it that '_wild_' hives (out in the woods, etc) are not an equal AFB threat? Why isn't there a hue and cry to eradicate all wild hives? :scratch:
> 
> Let us note that beekeepers seem to routinely violate Federal pesticide laws in concocting and applying ... uhhh ... _unlicensed_ home-brew pesticide concoctions to hives.
> 
> Frankly, if those (_uninspectable_) skep hives were instead in (_uninspected_) Lang style hives, is there any difference at all in terms of AFB risk? :s


I couldn't agree more. It's really a fear based argument for registration. I live in one of the few states with no registration or real limits on beekeeping. We are not overrun with AFB. I love freedom and it does come with risks.



clyderoad said:


> The calls for beekeeper registration and beeyard registration databases will be and should be getting louder and louder.


I would argue the risks of regulation are greater in that it only takes a minor adjustment to their rules to squash our hobby (or livelihood) into the ground. The government has and will regulate normal people into criminals by the stroke of a pen. A healthy fear of such power goes a long way. By en large, communities like beekeepers, are responsible hobbyists/businessmen who won't cut off their nose to spite their face. What I'm getting at is propagating AFB is bad for the individual and the masses. We don't need regulation to motivate us in preventing AFB propagation. If my state was contemplating reinstating registration/inspection laws I would be vocal with my local representatives to fight it. Freedom is always a better option.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Bernhard I have a cheap straw step
it will work


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

yotebuster1200 said:


> I have wanted to build a couple skeps and add some swarms to fill them. Like mentioned they are technically illegal to use in most states but that being said... how often has someone came to check your hives with removable frames? (that's what I thought) If you are a back yard beekeeper no one is going to care. Good luck and have fun.


 Just like it is technically illegal to not wear a safety belt while driving your car. Or technically illegal to drive over the sped limit. Technically illegal is illegal. And maintaining a hive that you yourself cannot inspect for diseases like American Foulbrood is more than technically illegal, aka illegal, it is irresponsible. It potentially poses a danger to your other hives and the hives of others.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Quite a while ago I visited a retired beekeeper. The good old fella was making splits from his hives. 
Those bottom boxes were practically one unit as the propolis was thick and old, lol. 
Those frames would of taken a lot of effort to break apart to inspect.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

When I was an inspector years ago, I came across an older gentleman that had a nice yard of bees. I think it was 18-20 nice new hives, deep singles. When I opened the boxes I discovered beautiful white wax going every which way in the nice new frames. Technically they "were" movable frame hives as per regulations, but without foundation, not so much...

Skeps can be inspected it just takes a different approach.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Phoebee said:


> This is why my first question was if this was being done for some kind of historical purpose. Case in point, at Colonial Williamsburg, here in Virginia, they sell skeps in a souvenir market. They'll tell you right off that they're only for decoration. Meanwhile, there are several Langstroth hives around the town, placed there by the governing historical outfit. The historians are usually sticklers for being period correct, and Langstroth hives are not. I suspect they'd like to have a few operating skeps for historical reasons. I suspect the State Apiarist has had a talk with them about it, and they probably could not find a beekeeper willing to do it. Their official stance is, forgetaboudit. This is one of the places I can see giving it a try on a limited scale.


 Back in 1980 Lew LeCompte and I set up a display of Colonial Style Beekeeping using a wooden hive based on drawing found in Deiderot's Encyclopedia of 1660, an Illustrated Encyclopedia that both Thomas Jefferson and George Washington had in their Libraries. 

We set the hive, which The Cabinet Shop in the Historical Area had made for use, in a Bee Shed facing the Palace Green. The Bee Shed, a four post, shed roofed structure with a platform for hives to set on had been built back in the early days of Colonial Williamsburg's Restoration. There are two such shed at the Museum. They were built based on an illustration found on a piece of paper money issued by the Continental Congress in 1779 (if I remember the date correctly). The illustration shows two skeps on a platform under the shed roof of a four post shed. I have a piece of that script myself. My father found it for me. He collected coins for a hobby.

The square tall wooden hive from Deiderot's Encyclopedia was a set of supers with an outer wooden box that slipped down around the stack of supers making the whole hive double walled. Conceding to modern day Law we had wooden frames made to fit inside the supers. CW, as the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation is referred to by the employees would not approve of doing anything illegal like not use frames when there was a Law against doing so. Besides, Lew's hives were registered with the State and the State Apiarist knew of our project and advise us on some aspects. 

Beekeepers have been keeping bees in Virginia since 1619. They started off with skeps, of course, and after a time, a couple hundred years probably, moved onto Log Gums and Board Hives (4 boards nailed together to make a taller than wide box with a lid held in place with a slab of rock. There are many ways to find out how bees have been kept without trying to recreate the past. But I do understand the allure. 

"By this ship and the Discovery we bring you ... skeps hives of honeybees, ..." So read the ships manifest for the first recorded delivery of honeybees to North America from England during the early American Colonial Period.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JSL said:


> When I was an inspector years ago, I came across an older gentleman that had a nice yard of bees. I think it was 18-20 nice new hives, deep singles. When I opened the boxes I discovered beautiful white wax going every which way in the nice new frames. Technically they "were" movable frame hives as per regulations, but without foundation, not so much...
> 
> Skeps can be inspected it just takes a different approach.


 If you read State Laws on Bees and Beekeeping I think you will find that the word is "removable", not "movable". A big difference.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

They seem cool to me


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I did read the missouri laws and though removable frames was mentioned they gave explination of what that ment with the end result was being able to see the brood. If your hive was found to be questionable, you are given six months to make better before any action can be taken and there must be probable cause for them to even look the first time. The way it is writen the removable frame explination in the law is that the brood can be looked at. Again, taking the legal or illegal argument out of it, Now that there are test to test the honey which would show infection, is it really irresponcible to have fixed frames or would such a law not have caught up with science yet and maby need rethought. 

As a disclaimer, I don't wear my seat belt and I have had occasion to speed and once forgot to use my blinker. I don't believe I am going to hell for these indiscresions and mostly do right.

There is law and then there is common sense and real life. When I taught my kids to drive I told them on the highway that they needed to drive about 4 or 5 miles faster then the speed limit cause they didn't need some crazy person getting all bent out of shape cause they were going too slow. I say that is closer to real life.

I just don't believe there are not ways to keep such a hive and not be irresponcible to others and heck with the law if it doesn't reconize this though my reading of it seems to leave room for it to maby actually be legal depending on how much trouble you want to go through during an inspection that will never happen.

Has science made the the brood inspection less needed now at least for foulbrood?

Cheers
gww


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## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

I can see the argument some of you are having that keeping bees in skeps is more difficult and more work, and even illegal. But those of you that are condemning because of the spread of disease.... well I am sure you have spread more disease than she will with her 6 skeps.... Let me explains, In my opinion bees kept in a skep (by are responsible beekeeper) are going to be very similar in health (if not a little better) than wild colonies. There are hundreds of thousands of swarms in America from "responsible beekeepers". Many of these swarms find a log, old house or other cavity and set up shop and live undisturbed until the colony eventually dies. These swarms from "responsible beekeepers" have much more chance of spreading disease than 6 bees kept in skeps. 

Let's be honest, if I had bees in a skep and was afraid I had AFB, I dont think it would be terribly hard to cut out a section of brood comb and investigate further. People who kept bees in skeps didn't just leave the bees to their own devices, they were heavily managed. More work, yes but still managed.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

In Germany it is "technically illegal" to not treat against varroa. Is it the same in the US? I mean, you spread all the diseases to your neighbours...isn't that irresponsible? Especially because varroa harbours and distributes other bee diseases? Treatment free is irresponsible...

See. That skep bashing is a fake discussion. With fake arguments.

I can inspect a fixed comb hive faster than you do a frame hive. I even catch queens faster out of a fixed comb hive than you do out of a frame hive. It is all about knowledge and skills. You all call yourself beekeepers but in fact you are frame jugglers. You are inable to handle fixed combs, that is hilarious. Sorry for the rant, but I can't stand that histerious talk anymore. Where are all the beekeepers gone?


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## ep-bees1984 (Jul 26, 2016)

BernhardHeuvel;1506469
I can inspect a fixed comb hive faster than you do a frame hive. I even catch queens faster out of a fixed comb hive than you do out of a frame hive. [/QUOTE said:


> that's because my hives have 15 TIMES as many bees as yours do.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

ep-bees1984 said:


> that's because my hives have 15 TIMES as many bees as yours do.


Hah! Hear, hear.  I doubt it. Doesn't matter anyway. In skeps you use the runny type of bees. Not the brood shielding bees, but those, that run off the combs and out of the hives. You thump and tap the skep and all the bees run out. Queen, too. If you intend to use skeps, choose those kind of bees. Runny bees.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> *In Germany it is "technically illegal" to not treat against varroa. Is it the same in the US?* I mean, you spread all the diseases to your neighbours...isn't that irresponsible? Especially because varroa harbours and distributes other bee diseases? Treatment free is irresponsible...


In some States, yes, I think it it is illegal to not treat for Varroa. Such laws are made for the common good, with the intentions of preventing/limiting/reducing the spread of disease.

Allowing one's livestock to remain in a diseased condition, where the possibility exists that such disease may spread to others and cause them economic or other harm, when such diseases are treatable/preventable, may be considered irresponsible and/or negligent. This is the reason for laws and inspection programs, which set standards that must be maintained for the protection of others and creates a situation where the negligent individual may be pursued and held liable for damages caused by their negligence.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

im pretty sure we could find a way to treat a skep


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> In Germany it is "technically illegal" to not treat against varroa. Is it the same in the US?


There is _no_ nationwide (i.e. Federal) law that requires treatment of US hives for varroa (or for that matter, any _other_ condition as far as I can tell). And I have not identified any individual US state that _requires_ bees to be treated for varroa, either.

(Of course, _many_ states have regulations regarding mandatory AFB action, and _some_ of those states also include language similar to "other communicable diseases" as well. However, varroa is not a "communicable disease".)

I'd love to see someone who thinks that an individual state _requires_ treatment for varroa offer a link to those regulations.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Quote from badbeekeeper


> creates a situation where the negligent individual may be pursued and held liable for damages caused by their negligence.


I have seen this sorta used as a scare tactic twice in this thread and every time it goes through my head that the guy being blamed might be saying the guy blaming me's bees made my bees sick. 

I am not against decent practices but the above seems like an unprovable thing and something that I guess the guy with the most money to pursue it will win or nobody will win cause it can't be proved who had the disease first.

It seems like most real regulations are to really drive everybody but the biggest with the smallest profit margins out of the buisness. Most regulations (even ones trying to solve a real problim) cause the people being regulated to either get big or get out.

Pigg farmers and all the bankruptsies in the 80s should prove this out.

One other point to all those taking the "high ground?" is that lots of times it is got wrong. If I read in the american bee journal that our way of keeping bees and the treatment of them has helped make bees even weaker and things are going to have to make a shift, then maby there are no real wrong players in all these debates except a regulationg that might have got it wrong.

I don't believe that much of the ideals that are put into regulation are really that inforcable but do believe that most people do try to do there best and even for the expirmenters, they usually get it right in some way or get tired of banging their heads against the wall and quit.

I also think that allowing bees to stay in a bad state will be irresponcible for the person doing it but they won't have bees too long to be a big threat to others if they do so. There is no incentive to raise bees and get nothing from them and you don't need a regulation to tell people this, their pocket books will tell them just fine.
Cheers
gww


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> There is _no_ nationwide (i.e. Federal) law that requires treatment of US hives for varroa (or for that matter, any _other_ condition as far as I can tell). And I have not identified any individual US state that _requires_ bees to be treated for varroa, either.
> 
> (Of course, _many_ states have regulations regarding mandatory AFB action, and _some_ of those states also include language similar to "other communicable diseases" as well. However, varroa is not a "communicable disease".)
> 
> I'd love to see someone who thinks that an individual state _requires_ treatment for varroa offer a link to those regulations.


NY could do that. Fine people for not treating their bees for mites. The State Bee Laws give authority to the Commissioner of Agriculture to regulate be diseases and pests. 

http://www.eshpa.org/beekeeping-laws/

*Section 173*. Eradication of bee diseases and certain
insects affecting bees. The commissioner may cause
inspections to be made of apiaries in the state for the
discovery of infectious, contagious or communicable diseases
and for the discovery of insects and parasitic organisms
adversely affecting bees, and for the discovery of species or
subspecies of bees which have been determined by him to
cause injury, directly or indirectly, to this state’s useful bee
population, crops, or other plants. He may also cause
investigations to be made as to the best method for the
eradication of diseases of bees, insects or parasitic organisms
adversely affecting bees, or for the eradication of species or
subspecies of bees which have been determined by him to
cause injury, directly or indirectly, to this state’s useful bee
population, crops, or other plants and he may plan and
execute appropriate methods for such eradication.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

One thing about regulations and the enforcement of them, there is no money in the State Budget for that.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

The OP is in it for the fun, and if keeping bees in a skep is fun for her, more power to her.

There are plenty of bee-havers using Langstroths and other modern equipment, who are sources of diseases, so it is unfair to single out a skep-beekeeper as the problem in that regard.

And I suppose all those saying using skeps is illegal have never driven faster than the speed limit.

JMHO


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

sqkcrk
I did not see anything in there about being able to fine anyone unless it is considered being able to destroy a hive as a fine.

I did see where he could investigate a certain treatment and maby force that treatment on to beekeepers which I assume they have not done except for probly foulbood somewhere else in the law like most states.

I did see that it gave them the right if they decided to, to destroy all russian of italian or other bee species if the decided to. 

They gave the commision a lot of power but I didn't see any fine. I read a differrent state that made it a misdermeanor to violate the keeping bees in a wrong type hive.

I did see that new york compared to missouri did not seem to have to have probable cause for inspetion but more had the right to go see any hive at will based purly on seeing if there was bugs or disease.

From that quoted section, you are doing nothing wrong untill they decide they want it to be wrong.
And so it is not illegal unless they decide they want to adress it.
Cheers
gww


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> There is _no_ nationwide (i.e. Federal) law that requires treatment of US hives for varroa (or for that matter, any _other_ condition as far as I can tell). And *I have not identified any individual US state that requires bees to be treated for varroa*, either.
> 
> (Of course, _many_ states have regulations regarding mandatory AFB action, and _some_ of those states also include language similar to "other communicable diseases" as well. However, varroa is not a "communicable disease".)
> 
> *I'd love to see someone who thinks that an individual state requires treatment for varroa offer a link to those regulations.*


 §2771. Disease and parasites of honeybees

The commissioner shall adopt rules to designate the diseases and *parasites* to be regulated in accordance with the Maine Administrative Procedure Act, Title 5, chapter 375. All honeybees infected with the disease known as American Foulbrood, European Foulbrood or other regulated honeybee diseases and parasites, *together with the equipment contaminated by any such* disease or *parasite, are declared to be a danger to spreading* these diseases and *parasites*. All honeybees and equipment which are suspected by the commissioner to be infected or infested with a regulated disease or parasite shall be quarantined in a location stipulated by the commissioner. The presence of a regulated disease or parasite shall be confirmed using a suitable method and qualified agency authorized by the commissioner. Upon confirmation, *the beekeeper shall be notified by a state bee inspector and allowed 7 days to eliminate* the disease in a manner prescribed by the commissioner. *If no corrective action is taken within 7 days, the infected or infested colonies shall be abated by a bee inspector* in a manner prescribed by rule in accordance with the Maine Administrative Procedure Act, Title 5, chapter 375. [1985, c. 572, (NEW).]

§2772. Possession

*It is unlawful for any person to knowingly own or possess honeybees having any contagious or infectious disease or parasite or bee equipment and appliances contaminated by any such disease or parasite.* It is unlawful to sell, barter or give away bees, equipment or appliances from any apiary without a certificate of inspection from a qualified bee inspector. [1985, c. 572, (NEW).]

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/7/title7ch525sec0.html

As you can see, the law in Maine effectively _requires_ treatment for Varroa, and failure to do so may result in the hive(s) being 'abated' by the inspector.



> *The purpose of this program is to prevent the introduction and/or spread of* regulated *honey bee* diseases, *parasites*, and undesirable genetic material in resident and migratory honey bee colonies, as well as encourage and maintain interstate movement of honey bees for crop pollination and honey production.


http://www.maine.gov/dacf/php/apiary/index.shtml

The law also provides for penalties (fines) for each colony in violation.

I believe that NJ and MA have similar laws, and though I can find no restriction in ME law regarding moveable frames (preventing the use of skeps), I think that MA law does contain such wording.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks for that excellent post/link in #106, Mark! 

A key part of that NY state verbiage is this ...


> ... and he may plan and execute appropriate methods for such eradication.


I'd say that covers just about any remedial action, including issuing fines to the laggards. 


... and now I see that we can add Maine (in addition to New York) as states that, from a legal perspective, _can_ require varroa control.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> (Of course, _many_ states have regulations regarding mandatory AFB action, and _some_ of those states also include language similar to "other communicable diseases" as well. However, varroa is not a "communicable disease".)


 your state uses


> _"Bee disease or pest" means a condition in which a colony is infested/infected with a bacterial,
> fungal, viral, or parasitic condition or an organism that can or will affect the well-being of a colony"_





Rader Sidetrack said:


> I'd love to see someone who thinks that an individual state _requires_ treatment for varroa offer a link to those regulations.


treatment of varroa is required by law in CA



> ARTICLE 14. Apiary Inspection [29200 - 29213]
> ( Article 14 added by Stats. 1987, Ch. 1404, Sec. 2. )
> 29204. Every infested apiary is a public nuisance. The owner or person in charge or possession of any apiary, upon finding an infestation to be present, or upon receiving notice an infestation exists in the apiary, shall *abate the infestation without undue delay, pursuant to the requirements of law*.
> 
> ...


Colorado



> I. Contagious Diseases
> 
> A. The following diseases and* mites*, having been determined by the Bee Advisory Committee as being
> hazardous to the beekeeping industry in this state, are contagious diseases for purposes of
> ...


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

gww said:


> Quote from badbeekeeper...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


GWW- note that I used the word "may" in relation to being pursued and held liable. You are right that asserting that a thing is true, is different from _proving_ that it is so. However, the point is that the existence of such laws *does* present the possibility that one could be so accused and sued for damages, which would require one to spend time/money defending against such a suit. It is also a fact that the rules of evidence in a civil procedure are somewhat less burdensome on the plaintiff than are the rules in a criminal procedure, requiring only a _preponderance_ of evidence rather than evidence 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. As well, the case is subject to the whim of a jury, that may or may not understand the nature of bees, and if the plaintiff tells a better story than the defendant...one might have to pay up...and the judge could award punitive damages in addition to actual damages.

It's not just a 'scare tactic', people in this country sue for all kinds of crazy stuff, and some of them win on cases that you'd think were impossible. It really is necessary to take it into consideration.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> ... and now I see that we can add Maine (in addition to New York) as states that, from a legal perspective, _can_ require varroa control.


LOL, I may not always _follow_ the law, but I usually know when I'm breaking it.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Badbeekeeper
I don't dissagree with you that poeple don't always let the facts get in the way of them wanting to litigate. All you can relie on is the defence. Having a true defence is no garrentee of a win. Still doing everthing right or not would not really stop this and it is almost unprovable who gave who what disease if both have it. In the end, better record keeping might help you in some way but I am not going to spend all my time writing down all the good things I have done for the just in case chance that I might be sued. 

I don't disagree with the content of you last post. It does point out that even doing everything you can that it still only takes one to make war.

Cheers
gww


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

gww said:


> sqkcrk
> I did not see anything in there about being able to fine anyone unless it is considered being able to destroy a hive as a fine.
> 
> I did see where he could investigate a certain treatment and maby force that treatment on to beekeepers which I assume they have not done except for probly foulbood somewhere else in the law like most states.
> ...


 When there was an Inspection force of more than two Apiary Inspectors, of which I was one for 20 seasons, 1986 to 2006, would, upon finding AFB, the only thing NY Apiary Inspection regulated, issue a Quarantine and Abatement Order. If the Beekeeper complied with the Order all would be good. If they did not comply then there was the possibility of a fine at so much per unit per day. As far as I know no fines were ever levied or collected.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

sqkcrk
I knew you were an inspector from previous post on this site. I figured I would get more info from someone in the know if I just kept prodding.
Thanks
gww


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

awebber96 said:


> We don't learn how to use the skeps in the U.S. (for the most part) because they are illegal in most states, including the state of the original poster. Why are they illegal? Because they cannot be fully, readily inspected (either by the government inspector or the beekeeper)...especially for EFB and AFB.
> 
> We all rely on each other (our beekeeping neighbors) to keep our hives disease free as much as possible. Those who are flippant about such things likely never saw a pit full of burning hives because FB was spotted in the area (it happened to my grandfather). Google it to remind yourself what could happen to YOUR hives because of your neighbors' ignorant decisions. I don't think its funny or cute to break the law, and I don't think anyone has the right to act illegally in ways that pose real risk to others.


Best post!


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> I believe that NJ and MA have similar laws, and though I can find no restriction in ME law regarding moveable frames (preventing the use of skeps), I think that MA law does contain such wording.


Mr. Dewey was kind enough to provide me with a quote of the ME law requiring (re)moveable frame hives, but as yet I cannot find the proper Chapter and Section. I see a bunch of [REPEALED] entries, so I guess I'll have to look harder.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

gww said:


> sqkcrk
> I knew you were an inspector from previous post on this site. I figured I would get more info from someone in the know if I just kept prodding.
> Thanks
> gww


Prod away. But be gentle.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

sqkcrk


> Prod away. But be gentle.


:thumbsup:
Cheers
gww


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

A few miles from where I live there is a "Bee Cafe", a place where you can call in and enjoy a coffee plus buy hundreds of products from health to beauty, all based on products from a hive. All this while enjoying a large wall panel observation hive.

Through a viewing window there are several langstroth hives people can watch. But what surprised me was that for quite some time near the entranceway, was a prominantly displayed skep with an active hive in it. Skeps are illegal here and the local beekeepers are pretty militant in seeing these kind of rules are enforced, and they are enforced. But for some reason everyone turned a blind eye to this skep.

I did wonder if it could be inspected by flipping it over and ripping out a couple brood combs to inspect, then let the bees rebuild. Would work, still illegal though.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> "Bee Cafe"


Is it this place? A friend stayed there some months ago.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Not sure on that Bernhard, there are a few of these around I suspect that is a different one. My local one is at a place called Puhoi, here is a pic of it, observation hive on the left.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Uh, nice one. Impressing shop.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

OT - from my limited experience, skeps do not like to be tipped, just like a top bar only frame does not do well in any position other than it's normal position. It is quite easy to just lift the skep over your head with out tipping and cut off a piece of comb. Bernhard may correct me on this, we will see.

Crazy Roland


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Roland
The guy in the vidio (link in reply 36) sure tipped the skep when he was cutting out queen cells.
Cheers
gww


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Don't sell honey - sell stings. 





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opR8g7SnfuE

Next one, who is next?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

GWW, I guess I stand corrected.

Crazy Roland


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Roland
I was not trying to correct anyone, just sharing info that might have been missed. I miss so much that I just love when sombody shares with me. I need it.
Cheers
gww


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Trophallaxis at work. We behave like our honey bees. :thumbsup:


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