# Organic newby



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Wouldn't a Shaman already know the answers to all questions?


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Hello, I for one have a lot of interest regarding how to transition from traditional beekeeping to treatment free. Even more so how to take queens purchased from a supplier that treats to being treatment free and thrive. Welcome to the forum.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Welcome Chuck! A Langstroth with the end bars and bottom bars off is a Tasmanian top bar hive. You will have to cut comb loose the first few times you inspect, maybe always.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They won't attach things any more than a sloped side. But there are issues. If you use them horizontally ten frames isn't wide enough. If you stack them up vertically, they may attach them on the bottom to the next box. My experience with deeps is that they are pretty fragile when the combs are brand new and the weather is hot. I've seen a complete collapse (every single comb went down like a row of dominoes) with a 33 frame hive of that arrangement (long deep Langstroth dimensions).


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## Beeshaman (Aug 18, 2011)

Maybe I have found the true shaman. Can you enlighten me or direct me to someone who might know. Can Langstroth hives be used or modified for top bar management. I want to manage my bees in the organic direction if possible. After 15 years of traditional management, I am looking for a better way. I am tired of using chemicals. I just don't want to make mistakes that others have made. 

v/s

Chuck


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## Beeshaman (Aug 18, 2011)

Thank you. I have done a little queen raising myself. Maybe if we can find enough viable drones, we will make some progress. I have a feeling this will be a long but very interesting journey.

v/s

Chuck


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## Beeshaman (Aug 18, 2011)

Splendid. I look forward to the challenge.

v/s

Chuck


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## Beeshaman (Aug 18, 2011)

I suspected there might be issues. Your experience is very much appreciated.

v/s 

Chuck


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can Langstroth hives be used or modified for top bar management. I want to manage my bees in the organic direction if possible.

I have not attempted it but I see no reason it would not work as well as (and have the same issues as) a Warre' as far as attachments between boxes, which I would consider the issue that concerns me. But there is no need to do that. If you have Langstroths and frames, just cut the old comb out, leave a row of cells around the edge and let them build natural comb. Frames are nice to have and apparently you already have them.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## Beeshaman (Aug 18, 2011)

Thank you Michael. I can do that.

Other than less materials, do you know of any advantage of Top Bar management over the Langstroth for an environmentally conscious beekeeper?

v/r

Chuck


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi,
Why not just go foundation-less with the langstroth equipment. If you're intent is for the bees to build their own comb, you'll accomplish the same thing.



Beeshaman said:


> Maybe I have found the true shaman. Can you enlighten me or direct me to someone who might know. Can Langstroth hives be used or modified for top bar management. I want to manage my bees in the organic direction if possible. After 15 years of traditional management, I am looking for a better way. I am tired of using chemicals. I just don't want to make mistakes that others have made.
> 
> v/s
> 
> Chuck


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## Beeshaman (Aug 18, 2011)

Dan,

Makes sense. At least the comb won't fall off into a pile. Other than being a low cost approach, I am not so sure Top Bars have any advantages and probably more disadvantages. I doubt if the bees care anyway. In any case, I will be interested how it works out. I will try both. Thanks!

v/r

Chuck


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Other than less materials, do you know of any advantage of Top Bar management over the Langstroth for an environmentally conscious beekeeper?

Compared to using foundation, yes, compared to using foundationless in a Langstroth, no. If you let them build their own comb it will be natural sized cells and clean wax.


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## Beeshaman (Aug 18, 2011)

Thank you Michael. My conclusion from TBH vs Langstroth hives would be that people (at least hobby beekeepers) with Langstroth equipment should go foundationless. Those that do not have the resources should still go with the materials they have available (i.e. TBH). As I think Gunther Hauk said (and I paraphrase) "It is better to have 60,000 beekeepers with 1 hive than 1 beekeeper with 60,000 hives". What do you think commercial beekeepers could do along these lines?

v/r

Chuck

v/s

Chuck


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> My experience with deeps is that they are pretty fragile when the combs are brand new and the weather is hot.


Sorry Michael I had to laugh. We have had 100F+ since June and the following is our forcast for the next 10 days [through September 1st].

*Palestine, TX (75801) WeatherSave This Location 
Updated: Aug 23, 2011, 7:45am 
UPDATE DATA 
Isolated T-Storms Isolated T-Storms Partly Cloudy Mostly Sunny Sunny Sunny Mostly Sunny Partly Cloudy Sunny Sunny 
103°F 
High
104° 105° 106° 106° 106° 107° 103° 102° 103° 
79° 
Low
78° 79° 77° 76° 78° 78° 78° 76° 77°* 

But you are certainly right about collapse of the wax on deep frames. Also, as a side note this is one of the reasons that I am amused when others post not to put your bees in the shade. I try to have all my colonies where they receive early morning sunshine but are in the shade from 3PM [about the hottest time of day] on.

Kindest Regards
Danny


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

DRUR said:


> Also, as a side note this is one of the reasons that I am amused when others post not to put your bees in the shade.


This is one of the reasons I require a members location at registration. "Don't put bees in the shade" is understandable coming from someone that lives in Maine, but not so from someone in Texas.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Welcome to the site!

Is your desire to do a modified top bar hive connected with your desire to do organic? They can be done separately. It might be easier to chose one and go with it. Once you have it down (for a year or two) then try the other one. Just a suggestion.


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