# Another bee kill from spraying?



## Haraga

Please please please take your own samples and send them to a reputable lab. Don't rely on someone else for this.


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## nlk3233

Good luck finding out if it is indeed the true cause. 
Sorry to hear


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## swamper1

Broodhead, I am in Ft. Pierce and had the same thing happen last year. Lost 60 hives due to Mustang being sprayed. I hope you get better analysis reporting than I did. Not only did it take over 6 months for the state to send me results of the test but when I finally got it the state said they could not find any evidence of insecticide residues. Really strange findings by the state as there were literally piles of dead bees mounded up in front of the hives. That was a financial disaster for me. I can't imagine losing hundreds if not thousands of hives like some of the big guys do. I know several chemical salesmen down here that say that there are chemicals that can be sprayed that do not harm honeybees. It's all about how much money the grove people are willing to spend per acre and apparently honeybees are not in that equation. It sure ain't like it used to be when the grove owners would start calling you up in October to see if you were going to have bees available for their groves. Good luck to you with the state. Dan


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## beemandan

swamper1 said:


> It sure ain't like it used to be when the grove owners would start calling you up in October to see if you were going to have bees available for their groves.


 Why did they want your bees in their groves?
My sympathy to all concerned. Beekeepers losing bees. The disappearance of Florida citrus. It is a lose - lose situation....seems to me.


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## swamper1

Beemandan, years ago before greening and citrus canker, grove owners and beekeepers mutually benefitted from bees in groves during bloom time (usually February, March, and some of April). Orange blossom honey used to be a premium, water white honey produced here. Nowadays we get a mix of orange, Spanish needle, and whatever else is blooming in the groves at that time. I'm convinced the bees are reluctant to work the orange blossoms because of all the chemicals on the trees, not only pesticides, but stuff to keep the trees somewhat healthy if there is such a thing. And you are right. It's really a lose, lose situation anymore. Dan


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## Mbeck

It's no secret that there is a huge effort to solve the Citrus greening problem and save Florida's citrus industry. 

The rumor on the street is that there will be a solution available to growers within a short time (two years or so depending who you talk to). 

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/n...sible-treatment-for-citrus-greening/10017477/

That's great news right? That's what I thought and was my reply when I heard.

Whoa! Not so fast. The following info was offered:

Growers spray with an economic threshold in mind. Younger groves with lighter infestations get regular constant and costly treatments. Older groves where greening is higher and near the end of productive life will not get sprayed as frequently. In older groves where greening is established it's not worth the $ to constantly spray even though some trees may not be infected. As the grove nears it's usefully life spending money on spraying a grove that is going to get turned over and replanted isn't the top priority.

If it is true (or the growers believe it is) that any tree kept health and uninflected for the next two years can be protected from greening with the new product things change . Now there is a greater financial motivation to save each and every tree. It makes sense to spend more on care. Bottom Line, Spray everything hard and often then spray it again.


I have no idea if this thinking or scenario is in anyway the reality or just crazy talk.
i share it hoping someone that understands this can correct or explain the reality so I can make the right decision to go or stay.


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## deknow

It is important to have the ag department take the samples. Chain of custody is important if the results are to have any legal standing.



Haraga said:


> Please please please take your own samples and send them to a reputable lab. Don't rely on someone else for this.


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## Haraga

I agree Deknow and it is equally important to collect and document the evidence also. And if you want to keep it from happening again, simply move the hives out of the danger zone.


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## Ian

what kind of bee populations do growers need to adequately pollinate the orange trees?


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## beemandan

Ian said:


> what kind of bee populations do growers need to adequately pollinate the orange trees?


Orange trees are self pollinating. They do not need bees to set fruit.


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## AmericasBeekeeper

That was stated by the growers at the Citrus-Beekeeper meetings. However a botanist pointed out that the only real study was his own showing that fruit set improved with pollinators. Usually people make conclusions based on common sense. So why does the tree expend resources to create nectar to draw pollinators if it does not need pollinators? Honey bees, and bees are not the only pollinators, yet the chemical mixes in groves are killing all pollinators and the fruit yield is down the last few years. True HLB reduces fruit set. Do you believe the growers will ever allow, or not compromise a study of fruit yield to pollinator density?
There is a parasitic wasp of the Psyllid that has been tested since 2004 and used over a year effectively. You cannot kill insects and have the wasp too though. 
Tamarixia http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/beneficial/wasps/tamarixia_radiata.htm


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## Ian

beemandan said:


> Orange trees are self pollinating. They do not need bees to set fruit.





swamper1 said:


> It sure ain't like it used to be when the grove owners would start calling you up in October to see if you were going to have bees available for their groves. Good luck to you with the state. Dan


So growers are or are not asking for bees to pollinate their oranges?


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## beemandan

Ian said:


> So growers are or are not asking for bees to pollinate their oranges?


They are not.


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## beemandan

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> However a botanist pointed out that the * only real* study was his own


Text highlighted by me. 
This strikes me as a bit of an inflated academic ego.


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## Haraga

Since the field was sprayed in December of 2013 and December of 2014, you will be able to anticipate moving your bees in December of 2015. Am I correct?


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## Ian

beemandan said:


> They are not.


what is swamper1 talking about? 
does bees = seeds? , where as no bees = no seeds?


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## swamper1

Ian, due to the marketing situation with citrus, several varieties have been eliminated from the groves. Temple oranges used to be a good juice and fresh fruit variety but because of too many seeds in them, growers stopped planting them. Some of the tangerines also were eliminated. Although Temples were considered a pollinator for other varieties themselves they were still not re-planted. That was just one variety. There were several others that needed honeybee pollination. Today, Honeybells need bee pollination, as well as Sunburst tangerines and a couple others benefit from the bees. But the bottom line for growers is what sells the best on the market as in everything else. Dan


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## sylus p

Ian said:


> what is swamper1 talking about?
> does bees = seeds? , where as no bees = no seeds?


 
simply put bees working the blossoms resulted in more and better fruit for the growers, and honey in the tanks for the beeks, which was a win-win. the grower got free pollination (aka better crops) because the beeks made a lot of good honey (aka money) and were willing to move into the groves to make it.

that said, orange trees _will _produce fruit without honeybee pollination.

now you have a situation where the growers would rather have _some _saleable fruit (achieved thru heavy spraying) instead of no fruit at all.

so in order to have saleable fruit, they spray their trees almost constantly, which appears to be killing bees.


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## Santa Caras

When I moved to Central Florid 15 yrs ago from Tampa...I was SURROUNDED by orange groves. The scent in spring was like natures potpouuri!! love that smell!!! Now......due to the citrus tree blight they've torn out just about ALL the citrus groves and replanted with strawberry fields that take an ENORMOUS amnt of water to keep alive. One reason why we're hearing about more an more sinkholes..IMHO. strawberries in wntr/sprng and melons in summer. Great fodder for the SHB!!!!


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## sylus p

broodhead said:


> On Friday I inspected the same yard again and hives were completely dead and piles of bees were on the ground at each hive entrance. Some hives had their entire population dead of doing the circle death dance on the ground.


when i was in florida last februaury/march the florida dept of ag commisioner told the beeks they wouldnt have any recourse if their bees were killed by citrus crop protection chemicals. basically they absolved the citrus growers of any liability or responsiblilty for bee kills. 

the trees were in full bloom everywhere, and it did smell wonderful, and everywhere the rigs were spraying. labeling laws be ****ed i guess. 

talk about a failed agricultural policy.


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## swamper1

Sylus P, you are right. It's a waste of ink for the chemical companies to print the labels. The growers are going to spray and to heck with the labels. They say, "the trees are not blooming now, so we are spraying". What they fail to realize is that there is lots of Spanish needle and other plant bloom in the groves that the bees are working but it doesn't matter to them. Like my previous post, "it sure ain't like it used to be". One of these days when people are on a steady diet of rice and noodles, they are going to say, "what happened to our fruits and vegetables"? Dan


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## Haraga

And I'll say it again. If the farmers are spraying and your bees are on THEIR land, simply move your bees out of danger.


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## sylus p

Haraga said:


> And I'll say it again. If the farmers are spraying and your bees are on THEIR land, simply move your bees out of danger.


donkey in nine


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## Haraga

sylus p said:


> donkey in nine


That's a new one to me. Please explain


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## broodhead

Seems that there needs to be some discussion here about the label and what is the law. THE LABEL IS THE LAW !!! 
Last year the University Of Florida put out a document defining bloom as true bloom vs bloom. The initial document pretty much implied that they were the ones that determined when one can spray and when it was allowable to spray. After discussions with the several concerning parties I questioned the documents legality as to defining spray periods as opposed to the label restrictions. The document was changed and two additions were made to the document that include, "THE LABEL IS THE LAW". Even last week during my discussions with the EPA is was also confirmed that in fact that is true. What has been done here is that several people have tried to change or define bloom as true bloom or bloom. 
The University of Florida document pretty much endorsed the spraying of pesticides when the trees had 10% or less bloom and when 80% of the bloom was gone. I have addressed this issue with the EPA, and others and the label is written to protect and promote proper applications of restricted pesticides. During the December of 2013 pesticide kill that I was victim of, test results from both the State of Florida and the chemical companies test results showed that my bees had been exposed to extremely high levels of imidacloprid. Levels as much as 2425 ppb were detected in dead bees. As a result the company applicator was fined 1500 dollars, for spraying out of label. 
I do not recall the commisioner making that statement, the recourse would be in a court of law. What has not worked is the mutual working arrangement between beekeeper and grove owner. Regarding my last bee kill I was not informed that the grove company would be spraying those groves in the immediate area of my bees.
On another note, with the rate of applications that is now being applied, how long will it be before some of this shows up in the food supply???
The True Bloom document can be viewed at the Florida Dept of Agriculture website. 
.


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## D Coates

I fully understand "LABEL IS THE LAW". Does everyone follow the law 100%? Are you always following the speed limit? Are your mattress tags fully attached? Do you always use you blinker? Nope. Do you look both ways before crossing a crosswalk even though the walk light is green and you have the right of way? Yep. As I've told my children if they didn't look. Yea, you're in the right to walk and if you got hit they'd be in trouble. You be injured or dead. In the big picture who cares that he broke the law, you're in pain or at room temperature.

Like looking both ways at a green crosswalk, move the bees if your concerned about them getting poisoned. Try raising heck with someone on what they do on their own land and... you've lost an apiary. You've probably queered that location for any beekeepers after you too.


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## sylus p

looks like haraga and d coates are twins.

donkey in nine twins, courtesy of anna graham.


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## broodhead

How do you lose an apiary when it is not on their property?
What about damage or loss of an apiary due to their out of label spraying?
So I guess what your saying is that if you are damaged on your own or leased property then you have no recourse ?
I think you should think a bit more about your comments, I guess you do not understand the circumstances.


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## sylus p

broodhead said:


> How do you lose an apiary when it is not on their property?
> What about damage or loss of an apiary due to their out of label spraying?
> So I guess what your saying is that if you are damaged on your own or leased property then you have no recourse ?
> I think you should think a bit more about your comments, I guess you do not understand the circumstances.


bingo.

but dont expect a well thought out response from the twins.


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## Haraga

Everyone is jumping up and down over out of label spraying when 9 out of ten times they don't even know what is being sprayed or what the label is. Once again, to be on the safe side, since you can't control where your bees are foraging, move them away from there.


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## Haraga

sylus p said:


> when i was in florida last februaury/march the florida dept of ag commisioner told the beeks they wouldnt have any recourse if their bees were killed by citrus crop protection chemicals. basically they absolved the citrus growers of any liability or responsiblilty for bee kills.
> 
> the trees were in full bloom everywhere, and it did smell wonderful, and everywhere the rigs were spraying. labeling laws be ****ed i guess.
> 
> talk about a failed agricultural policy.


Sounds to me that the Ag commissioner told you how it's going to be. Accept it and get your bees out of there.


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## D Coates

sylus p said:


> bingo.
> 
> but dont expect a well thought out response from the twins.


You don't know me and I don't know Haraga. I don't know if we've ever even posted on the same thread. How is it I have a thought that agrees with another and all of a sudden were twins? Discount other's thinking all you want if that's how you're going to play but it appears I'm not the one without the thought out response. If I agreed with you are we twins? Would I be suddenly capable of a thought out response? 

PLEASE whatever you do, walk your talk, leave your bees where they may be poisoned and don't look both ways when crossing the green light crosswalk. See how that works out for you.


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## D Coates

broodhead said:


> How do you lose an apiary when it is not on their property?
> What about damage or loss of an apiary due to their out of label spraying?
> So I guess what your saying is that if you are damaged on your own or leased property then you have no recourse ?
> I think you should think a bit more about your comments, I guess you do not understand the circumstances.


1.) Raise heck with a land owner and tell them how to manage their land and they'll boot you off as soon as the lease is over. 2.) Prove it, either way you're now going to have an adversarial relationship with the land owner and... (see 1.) 3.) You have recourse, but good luck getting it without burning your bridge. In doing so... (see 1.) 4) Ditto. Have you ever been a lease holder or lessee? I've been both. Don't jack with the property owner. Accusing them of anything is not good for the relationship at all. 

Raise heck with a nearby land owner and accuse him of things and unless you're living with your bees things could happen. Even if you are living with them some syrup with diluted seven dust and, well... unless you can prove where it came from you'll be the owner of empty/failing hives and no recourse.

If you truly believe your bees are in danger MOVE them. It's infinitely easier than the alternatives.

Good luck either way.


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## beemandan

The sad part is, as I said before it is a lose-lose situation. The beekeeper trying to keep his bees and the grower trying to save his crop. As these conflicts in interests continue, and they will, more and more growers will stop allowing beekeepers in their orchards. Even if they've never had a problem with one another in the past. The grower will want the option to do whatever he needs to save his livelihood and rather than risk a brawl, he'll simply decline to allow the bees on his property. After all what's in it for him? Sadly, I believe that the days of orange blossom honey....at least from Florida.... are numbered.


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## sylus p

Haraga and D Coates,

riddle me this

are the residents of Charlestown, West Virginia to blame for the coal mining chemical MCHM that showed up in their water last year? those leaky tanks were on PRIVATE PROPERTY after-all.


and what about the golden rule? and what about morality? <-- do these ideals matter to you at all?

i do get what you're saying and i do look both ways before crossing the street.


but if some crazy idiot drives through a residential neighboorhood doing 60 and hits a kid, do you blame the kid and his parents?!?

God help you if do.


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## Haraga

Sylus why do you play the god card?


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## D Coates

sylus p,

Prove where the MCHM comes from and there may be a case. We're beekeepers though, talking about bee apiaries. You're going to have to prove who used what in what citrus groves and if they did it correctly. If in doubt, or you believe your bees are in danger, it's infinitely easier to move your bees than get someone to snitch on themselves. If you wish to be Sisyphus go for it. Let us know how that works out for you. Those citrus growers make their living off of citrus and citrus is a MUCH more important crop to Florida than beekeeping/honey.

Golden rule? Are you treating Haraga and I the way you would like to be treated? A simple apology will do just fine now if you don't want to look like a hypocrite here. Is this enough of a "well thought out response"?

Morality? Uh..., again we're beekeepers here. If you believe your bees are in danger from what someone else may or may not be doing and the AG commissioner has already warned you that you have no foot to stand on, move your bees. If you choose not to that's your choice but don't try to climb up on the "morality" soapbox afterwards.

Nope, I still blame the driver. I always have. A wise person crossing the road who wishes to live a long happy life should use the matter between their ears to observe and decide if it's safe to cross the road before actually doing it though. The same still applies here if you believe your bees are at risk.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Very nice response, _D Coates_! 


And thank you also for your nuc plans posted to Beesource.


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## D Coates

Those plans were my pleasure.

Be careful agreeing with others. You may get called a twin, arrogantly believed incapable of a well thought out response. In this case possibly a triplet.


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## sylus p

Haraga said:


> Sylus why do you play the god card?


God, capital G.


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## sylus p

D Coates said:


> sylus p,
> 
> 
> Golden rule? Are you treating Haraga and I the way you would like to be treated? A simple apology will do just fine now if you don't want to look like a hypocrite here. Is this enough of a "well thought out response"?


:lpf:


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## sylus p

btw, I dont have any bees in florida rt now. 

i feel bad for all the beeks who do. especially since the citrus growers have been officially licensed to poison the one world we all get to share. 

do you guys have stock down there? i'm gonna guess no.


God bless everyone. God help us all. 

I'm gonna go play with my baby now.


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## beemandan

sylus p said:


> i feel bad for all the beeks who do.


Do you have any sympathy for the citrus growers?


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## sylus p

beemandan said:


> Do you have any sympathy for the citrus growers?


Yes I do.

Do you have sympathy for the migrant workers who pick the fruit?

The growers at least own the land. They could adapt.

They could raise hay, cows, corn, strawberries, pigs, chickens, melons, berries etc. etc. They could live and work as husbandman, and as nurturers of life. As farmers.

Instead, most are embracing the poisons and death. 

I moved my bees away from there, that’s done. The “look both ways” analogy is played out; I already looked both ways, and stayed on my side of the street. 

This is like blaming the one raped and not the rapist. 

If the growers spread the poisons then they spread death. It’s not a neutral act because we live in a shared world. Anymore than raping someone is. 

Do you have a daughter or a wife or a sister or a mom? Would you blame them if they got raped in a parking garage downtown? Would you tell them they just shouldn’t have parked there?


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## SoylentYellow

A few comments:

ZERO beekeepers with hives in this county have used the Fla. Dept. of Ag. mapping service to show the locations of their hives to farmers and other applicators. Communication (friendly) is key here. If they know where the hives are at you stand a better chance of others looking out for them.

http://www.freshfromflorida.com/Div...a-Apiary-Citrus-Industry-Link-Mapping-Service

I see talk of not liking spraying even though citrus is not in bloom because the bees are visiting the weeds. Yet at the same time we don't like farmers using Roundup (Glyphosate) either. Catch 22.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...s-safe-as-we-have-been-told&highlight=roundup

I fail to understand why it is ok to treat bees for ailments/pests but not ok for a citrus farmer to do so.
A citrus guy is going to have a lot harder time moving his crop than the beek. The citrus industry is hurting badly, if they don't treat with the appropriate herbicides, fungicides, and insecticides, those groves go downhill fast. Certainly agree about following the label, most do, and most don't apply if it isn't above thresholds because it's expensive to do so.


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## D Coates

sylus p said:


> The growers at least own the land. They could adapt.
> 
> They could raise hay, cows, corn, strawberries, pigs, chickens, melons, berries etc. etc. They could live and work as husbandman, and as nurturers of life. As farmers.
> 
> Instead, most are embracing the poisons and death.
> 
> I moved my bees away from there, that’s done. The “look both ways” analogy is played out; I already looked both ways, and stayed on my side of the street.
> 
> This is like blaming the one raped and not the rapist.
> 
> If the growers spread the poisons then they spread death. It’s not a neutral act because we live in a shared world. Anymore than raping someone is.


Ahhh,.... there it is. You expect others to adapt to your utopian view. Anyone who doesn't is blindly accused of spreading death and/or raping the world? 

Come on. It's not that bad. Go enjoy your baby. Take a deep breath, enjoy what you have. Wearing yourself down worrying about things you have no control over (this is one of them) detracts from your enjoyment of life and those around you. We're all invariably handed what we think are lemons in our respective lives. You can suck on them and complain with an invariably sour disposition. Or, you can figure ways to make lemonade (or lemon bars, Limoncello, Lemon curd, etc.) and move on and enjoy life. Life is waaaay to short to suck on lemons.


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## beemandan

sylus p said:


> This is like blaming the one raped and not the rapist.


 Seems like an over the top response.
It was a simple question I was asking. I am not taking sides.


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## sylus p

D Coates said:


> Ahhh,.... there it is. You expect others to adapt to your utopian view. Anyone who doesn't is blindly accused of spreading death and/or raping the world?


Not correct.

I was offering positive alternatives for husbandman and farmers. A nice tall glass of lemonade if you will.

In fact a lot of the growers are doing just what I suggested already so yeah. 

Can I offer you a glass of my lemonade? Its really tasty.


We can move our bees, just like we can move out of a bad nieghboorhood. 
But we don't go talking about how great it was back in the ghetto right? 
We agree that the rapist and the thief and mugger are responsible for their actions. 
But somehow the citrus growers aren't responsible for negative consequences of their actions. Thats crazy.

Back to work and back to the babe, per D Coates instructions!!


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## Santa Caras

beemandan said:


> Sadly, I believe that the days of orange blossom honey....at least from Florida.... are numbered.


You are entirley correct. I had stated earlier that when I first moved out here to Central Florida 15 yrs ago, I was surrounded by orange and even some grapefruit groves but now they've all been pulled, burned and plowed under and replaced by strawberries and melons. There are still some around but they're not worked and mostly dead. The pesticide spraying question for citrus trees may becoming moot.


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## D Coates

sylus p said:


> Not correct.
> 
> I was offering positive alternatives for husbandman and farmers.


Fine. Great if it works for them and they can make a living at it. Time will tell if they can. For those who choose a different path consider not talking down to them by calling them names and openly stating they are incapable of a well thought out response. Inflammatory language like spreading death and rape if they disagree with your position doesn't help either. It closes down dialog, weakens your position and makes it look like you've got a big ol' lemon firmly between your teeth.


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## sylus p

D Coates said:


> Fine. Great if it works for them and they can make a living at it. Time will tell if they can.


DC… 

I take that as positive; despite your following it up with a complete misrepresentation of what I’ve said thus far. 

The citrus growers might be insulted though. You insinuated that they’re too dumb to do anything profitable with THEIR land except grow oranges on it. 

By the way that “lemonade” analogy you keep cramming down our throats has nothing to do with the topic. The analogies I put forward all did. 

The lemon thing is you attempting to discredit and insult me, over and over. That’s positive too though because it means you’d rather attack me than the ideas I’m putting forward. 

I’ll be in the Principals office getting yelled at if anybody needs me. 

Much love.


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## D Coates

Enjoy your lemon.

I actually was giving you constructive feedback. No more. Have a good life.


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## sylus p

D Coates said:


> Enjoy your lemon.
> 
> I actually was giving you constructive feedback. No more. Have a good life.


Holy fast response DC!!

They let me out off with a warning so I'll do one more too. 

Who sprays the groves, the beek or the grower? 
Answer: The grower

So when the insecticide kills or weakens someone’s bees it’s the result of the growers initial decision. It’s not mean or wrong to say that, it’s just true. It’s mean to say otherwise actually. 

So tell me again that it’s the beeks fault for not moving, and I’ll tell you again it’s the growers decision to spread that stuff in the first place that is the root cause. 

In other words, the bees wouldn’t suffer from the poison if the poison weren’t used. 

I know, it’s complicated.


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## Rader Sidetrack

sylus p said:


> In other words, the bees wouldn’t suffer from the poison if the poison weren’t used.


And conversely, if *you *hadn't put the bees in harm's way, "the bees wouldn’t suffer from the poison" since they would have been moved elsewhere.



I know, it’s complicated.


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## broodhead

SoylentYellow, there is no mandatory requirement to map your bee yards. If the grove owner knows where your bees are and has known that you have had apiaries in locations then the mapping is not going to keep the grove companies from spraying out of label. Just recently as I detailed in an earlier post, I suspect that I was sprayed from the same grove company that was found to have sprayed out of label last December and killed most of the hives in my adjacent yards. 
The grove company sprayed at night after that and even informed me of their spraying prior to night applications, so things were working out pretty well. As the state has suggested we were working together up until I was asked to sign a held harmless agreement that stated that I could never file a complaint against the grove company again, even if they were negligent. 
I certainly would never sign such an agreement, would you?
After I refused to sign the agreement and collect partial compensation for the damages they inflicted, they quit notifying me of spraying and the grove owner, beekeeper, mutual exist plan that the Dept Of Agriculture adopts simply was abandoned by the grove company. This brings us back to two weeks ago when the same company was spraying insecticides in the middle of the day when the wind was max 20 gust to 26 and my bees were dying as they tried to fly back to the hives. Some made it back and poisoned the rest of the hives. My situation has gone legal, I consider their actions mere harassment and a effort to put me out of beekeeping. 
Regardless, I await the results from two labs, I doubt it was the methane gas from the local landfill that the grove manager asserted during the last Dec poisoning. Follow the label, be responsible and things will probably work out a bit better in the end.


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## crazylocha

Hmm. State law requires that you report bee yards. Got phone call first day of work for commercial beek (boss did), get out, they're spraying A.S.A.P. (state/feds). Every vehicle that could move did. 2 clueless newbys cleaned feed buckets that week. 
Game changer: needs of the entire citrus industry outweighed everything else. $22 billion direct, $30 billion indirect depended on keeping as much citrus alive as possible. Florida is a consumer state except for 2 things, citrus and phosphates.
Now those super brains @UF have figured out to get greening @ the roots, we stand a chance(beeks). Hopefully better behaved spraying.

Same old broken record this year, dang mosquito spraying killing hives( Samsula/Indian River areas).

Crossing fingers, but hoping we don't even bother with Orange this year and let things settle first.


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## FollowtheHoney

I am curious about this notion that one should relocate their hives to protect them from chemical exposure. I have four locations I could rotate my hives, all chemical free if you ignore the fact that bees fly miles away. I don't know how common it is for farmers to notify about spraying but wouldn't they only notify those on their property? I live in Eastern Massachusetts, there is no place I could move my hives where they are not within a couple miles of conventional farming. What do you mean when you say move your bees out of harms way? I have accepted that most farmers use chemicals and I am likely to lose a colony to poisoning because it happens every year in my region. Sweet corn appears to be the likely culprit in many but not all cases. I cannot move my bees out of harms way. I depend on chemical applicators to follow the label, notify when practical and to accept without shifting blame that sometimes their practices are going to kill beneficial insects.


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## SoylentYellow

broodhead said:


> SoylentYellow, there is no mandatory requirement to map your bee yards.


And it's not mandatory for them to notify you when they spray. So who wins then?

What chemical are you talking about? Brand name so I can read the label, I'll bet it does not say they have to spray at night. That would be unusual around here. What exactly do you think they did incorrectly? 

And yes I would sign a hold harmless agreement if they permitted me to place bees on their property.


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## broodhead

Soylent, read labels of Admire Pro, Mustang, Danitol, you can find these online, each has a distinctive warning for spraying when bees are present. Labels also have wind requirements and warnings for application. Why do you thing the Fl Dept of Ag has fined growers who violate the label. They have defined that activity as spraying out of label. No, it is not mandatory to spray at night, it was an agreed practice between the grower and beekeeper also supported by the chemical company as a way to protect all parties involved. Because of the LABEL WARNINGS it seemed a logical way to protect both parties
No, it is not mandatory for the grower to contact you when they spray. It was advised as a friendly agreement by the Dept of Ag so that the two parties could work together to solve some of the problems associated with sprays and bees. 
As to the held harmless agreement, I would probably sign such agreement if the bee were on their property and I was fully aware of the risk for pesticide applications, but the bees were not on their property, they were on property that I lease for bee yards, some were at my own home 1/2 mile away. So, I hope you understand why those type of agreements would not be wise to accept, would you accept your neighbor damaging or destroying your property then allowing yourself to be put into a no recourse agreement, I would think not.


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## D Coates

broodhead said:


> No, it is not mandatory to spray at night, it was an agreed practice between the grower and beekeeper also supported by the chemical company as a way to protect all parties involved.





broodhead said:


> No, it is not mandatory for the grower to contact you when they spray. It was advised as a friendly agreement by the Dept of Ag so that the two parties could work together to solve some of the problems associated with sprays and bees.


These are not legally binding agreements that work when there's open discussions. Obviously neither are mandatory. As soon as anyone get accusatory or legal action is threatened they're going to cease communication. They can spray whenever they deem appropriate within the letter of the law and still leave you with dead bees. You then have to consume time, energy, and resources prove who did what and when, and then possibly collect damages.



broodhead said:


> As to the held harmless agreement, I would probably sign such agreement if the bee were on their property and I was fully aware of the risk for pesticide applications, but the bees were not on their property, they were on property that I lease for bee yards, some were at my own home 1/2 mile away. So, I hope you understand why those type of agreements would not be wise to accept, would you accept your neighbor damaging or destroying your property then allowing yourself to be put into a no recourse agreement, I would think not.


Okay, that's logical. Fight for your rights but understand in the long run these are bad apiary locations. If he's believed to not follow label warnings and has ceased communication (for whatever reason), I don't understand why you leave your bees there. Continue to keep bees there and it will continue to be more of the same. It's like parking a car in the same poorly lit spot where it keeps getting broken into time and time again. Yea, go after whomever has broken into your car, BUT find a better place to park.


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## SoylentYellow

broodhead said:


> Soylent, read labels of Admire Pro, Mustang, Danitol, you can find these online, each has a distinctive warning for spraying when bees are present. Labels also have wind requirements and warnings for application. Why do you thing the Fl Dept of Ag has fined growers who violate the label. They have defined that activity as spraying out of label. No, it is not mandatory to spray at night, it was an agreed practice between the grower and beekeeper also supported by the chemical company as a way to protect all parties involved. Because of the LABEL WARNINGS it seemed a logical way to protect both parties
> No, it is not mandatory for the grower to contact you when they spray. It was advised as a friendly agreement by the Dept of Ag so that the two parties could work together to solve some of the problems associated with sprays and bees.
> As to the held harmless agreement, I would probably sign such agreement if the bee were on their property and I was fully aware of the risk for pesticide applications, but the bees were not on their property, they were on property that I lease for bee yards, some were at my own home 1/2 mile away. So, I hope you understand why those type of agreements would not be wise to accept, would you accept your neighbor damaging or destroying your property then allowing yourself to be put into a no recourse agreement, I would think not.


Thanks Broodhead, off to read some labels. Bees probably visit any grove with weeds and the only way around this is a very aggressive herbicide campaign to nuke everything but the citrus mono crop. I see this as the only way to avoid other plants blooming when citrus is not. Agree?

Of course it will be expensive and likely contribute to erosion.

Okay just read the labels....Mustang and Danitol have the generic bee language about not applying the product to blooming crops or weeds when bees are visiting. Admire Pro being a drench/basal bark treatment and being a systemic has much more specific restrictions, i.e. do not apply between Nov 1 and completion of petal-fall the following year. Seems reasonable.


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## broodhead

Yes, seems reasonable, but Admire Pro can also be applied by ground blast, as it was in 2013 when the same grove company sprayed during bloom. Also was applied in December of 13 with the same ground application equipment and a notice of violation was issued against the applicator. These labels are intended to promote proper and safe application, in my case the problem was not the chemical, but the application. The state did not fine the chemical company, they fined the applicator. They SPRAYED OUT OF LABEL!


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## SoylentYellow

broodhead said:


> Yes, seems reasonable, but Admire Pro can also be applied by ground blast, as it was in 2013 when the same grove company sprayed during bloom. Also was applied in December of 13 with the same ground application equipment and a notice of violation was issued against the applicator. These labels are intended to promote proper and safe application, in my case the problem was not the chemical, but the application. The state did not fine the chemical company, they fined the applicator. They SPRAYED OUT OF LABEL!


So many labels for that one, I had read the supplemental label for Citrus and the Psyllid which was only a drench, but yes I see after reading the general label it has foliar applications for citrus psyllid there, no date restriction listed on that one.


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## sylus p

D Coates said:


> It's like parking a car in the same poorly lit spot where it keeps getting broken into time and time again. Yea, go after whomever has broken into your car, BUT find a better place to park.


DC

and what if you're parking in front of your own house? like broodhead is.

do you put up a camara? find out whose breaking in, and when? 

show and tell everyone in the neighboorhood instead of running away and being victimized?

forgive them? take them to court? wait for them in the back seat with a bat?

i'm interested to know what you think.


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## broodhead

Oh yes, the camera! I have some great pics taken from my game camera that I had hidden near the few hives closest to my house. I even know the unlucky visitor.
I think court is the best option.


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## D Coates

sylus p said:


> i'm interested to know what you think.


No you're not. You're trolling. You needn't try to contact me again. You've joined the very select ranks of people (3 total) who's posts I've blocked as they aren't worth my time reading. Have a good life.


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## sylus p

D Coates said:


> No you're not. You're trolling. You needn't try to contact me again. You've joined the very select ranks of people (3 total) who's posts I've blocked as they aren't worth my time reading. Have a good life.



i *was *interested, i thought we were finally getting somewhere, using your analogy ta-boot

and i dont have anybodys "posts blocked"... let alone 3 peoples... but i take that as positive... i'm happy to be part of that select group.

this tells me that without a leg to stand on, you'd rather lash out at me than have your opinion scrutinized and found out to be lacking....


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