# Two untreated hives in my bee yard



## MillerPutnam (Jul 5, 2016)

I have a friend whom I’m mentoring that has decided not to treat his two hives in my apiary. I have about 15 hives my son and I treat with vaporized Oxalic acid. Should I worry about having two untreated hives within my apiary and could the two untreated hives help spread mites into my treated hives ? Really hope I can get some guidance from other beekeepers.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I would worry, yes.

If his hives get loaded up with mites, they will very definately spread into your hives.

It is completely unreasonable for him to carry out his TF experiment, in your apiary. Although his intentions may not be bad, he probably just has not thought it through, or seen it from your viewpoint.

It's difficult when dealing with a friend, to kick him out. However he is being absolutely inconsiderate. You got 2 choices. Allow him to continue his experiment in your apiary, or, ask him to do the experiment somewhere else.

Ask him, would he be happy for you to run a fox farm, in his chicken house, or should the fox farm be run somewhere else.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

As an aside, i have several times been approached by "friends", who have a hive or two they cannot find a home for, ask me if they can put them in one of my bee yards.

Although very uncomfortable with the idea, because they are a "friend" and it's hard to say no, a few times I have agreed. For one reason or another, each time the whole thing has turned to custard, and caused ill will, and it would have been less damaging to have said a straight up no, up front in the first place. Which is now what I do.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Whole heartedly agree with Oldtimer - except that I'd use the term 'Horlicks' instead of 'custard'. 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Horlicks 

LJ


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

MillerPutnam said:


> I have a friend whom I’m mentoring that has decided not to treat his two hives in my apiary. Should I worry about having two untreated hives within my apiary and could the two untreated hives help spread mites into my treated hives ?


Did you not know he wasn't going to treat them before agreeing to house them? Are the bees from a TF line?, if not, why is he not treating them? Mites will spread both ways. It may be a short experiment anyway


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Millar has said he is mentoring the guy. Which would indicate the other guy is a new inexperienced beekeeper. Probably read some of that TF stuff on the internet and is now enthused to try it out.

If allowed will blunder along, unaware of the harm he is doing, because the internet told him it's all good.

Millar is treating his bees which indicates they are not resistant, and it's unlikely the other guys bees are resistant either.

The end result will be the newby's hives will die, and along the process flood Millars hives with mites. Because Millar is using AO vapor, and not something more potent like synthetic strips, Millars hives could be exposed to considerable harm.

If someone wanted to try TF beekeeping in one of my apiaries, the answer would be an in his face NO. I would not even remotely contemplate such a thing.


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## MillerPutnam (Jul 5, 2016)

Thanks. Guys. This is the answer I got from my son in the beginning so, good to hear consistent answers across the board. I did not know he was not going to treat when we started and he’s new... probably didn’t know himself. But I will give him his choices and see what happens. Thank you so much.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If it's hard being forced to say no to a friend, show him this thread to help him see reason.


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

Another option if you’re open to it is offering to treat his hives at the same time you are treating your own for a fee. Or having him rent your equipment so he can treat his own. Sometimes the price of the equipment can get in the way. This might be a good teaching moment.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

MillerPutnam, I assume since you didn’t answer the question if the bees originated from a TF line, they didn’t. So, since you are his mentor, you should mentor him into realizing how bad of an ideal this is?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

To heck with all that, treat his hives and don't tell him. You have to protect your bees. In the time between now and next spring, maybe you can bring him around or help him find another place for his hives to die.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I'd tell him that the apiary is not TF, but you will gladly treat his when you treat yours. Better yet, he can join you and learn how to do it. But not treating, not an option.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

I would put robber screen son his hive ASAP to keep your bees out of his hives when the crash and they start robbing. 

I would also recommend pushing him to treat, but that is harder to do.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

In a video series we have been doing a colony that was left untreated for experimental purposes had 94 mites in an alcohol wash of 300 bees!!! 

If this hive was not monitored and had collapsed it could have spread many thousand mites thru my beeyard. FYI after 5 OAVs it was still washing a 32. After 3 additional rounds AND apivar it washed a zero. The colony has shrunk and still has signs of multiple viruses (suprises surprise)

If I was mentoring him I would show him some tough love and tell him to treat or find a different yard.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Another point to consider is Randy Oliver found that sick or weak bees will migrate to another hive thinking they’re doing their hive a favor.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

MillerPutnam said:


> I did not know he was not going to treat when we started and he’s new...


An alternative method for selecting treatment free bees should be offered to new optimistic beekeepers. The principle of method is not selecting from the best, but deselecting the worst, bees or mites. In that method the bees are under moderate pressure and that is allegedly the best for evolution. The method can be called LTE. 

From Tennessee's Bees LLC's post:


> FYI after 5 OAVs it was still washing a 32. After 3 additional rounds AND apivar it washed a zero. The colony has shrunk and still has signs of multiple viruses (suprises surprise)


That is how deselection works; the bees are weakened and mites are eliminated by extensive treatment.

Eventually treatment / no treatment ratio should be adjusted to target 20% - 30% looses.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

viesest said:


> An alternative method for selecting treatment free bees should be offered to new optimistic beekeepers. The principle of method is not selecting from the best, but deselecting the worst, bees or mites. In that method the bees are under moderate pressure and that is allegedly the best for evolution. The method can be called LTE.
> 
> From Tennessee's Bees LLC's post:
> 
> ...


We just requeened the colony. No need for bees to die for no reason. This was for our youtube channel. The videos main goal was to show that OAV isn't quite as effective as many think it is with brood present in the hive. Also, to show that mites are to be taken seriously. 

The vast majority of new beekeepers can't afford the method of letting hives perish. Nor do they have the skill or wherewithal to raise and select stock. Fundamental beekeeping and mite control is more important. If they want to dabble with TF stuff then that should come after they learn some basics not before.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Well said Tennessee Bees. J


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Those two hives of your friends just treat them with yours and dont tell him.His bees will then hopefully live and make him a crop of honey he will be proud of.You wont get mite bombs from his.Its only takes a few minutes of your time and you are covered.He is covered.Both of you are happy and you keep your friend happy.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> The videos main goal was to show that OAV isn't quite as effective as many think it is with brood present in the hive.


And in addition to that treatment in summer is complicated and/or expensive. So, in 'theory' very efficient winter treatment plus just a bit resistant bees and summer treatment could be skipped, avoided.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Does the other bee keeper have as much right to the physical location as you have? If he does. You can move your bees. If he does not, then you are the boss.
Cheers
gww


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## MillerPutnam (Jul 5, 2016)

Thank you, all, for the sage advice. It’s really wonderful to be able to pop a question out there and get experienced advice from beekeepers all over the country if not the world. Thank you for sharing. My (still) friend will be moving his bees to a piece of property he owns in the mountains a few counties over. I will be helping him with a new Warré Hive he is going to try (with a colony I will sell him).


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Sounds like a winning solution. You get to keep both your bees and your friend.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

MillerPutnam said:


> I will be helping him with a new Warré Hive he is going to try (with a colony I will sell him).


I wonder how that will end up for his TF inspirations


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> The vast majority of new beekeepers can't afford the method of letting hives perish. Nor do they have the skill or wherewithal to raise and select stock. Fundamental beekeeping and mite control is more important. If they want to dabble with TF stuff then that should come after they learn some basics not before.


I have never understood the logic of learning how to keep bees on T, then learning how to keep them off. Why not just start learning the basics with TF stock, if that’s how you want to raise bees:scratch: I am almost certain if I would have started with treated packages or nucs, I would still be treating them.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> I have never understood the logic of learning how to keep bees on T, then learning how to keep them off........


The main issue is - the TF "experts" often will say - "just not treat".
Then the new beeks will do exactly that - not treat (and get terrible results, more often then not).
This is a huge disservice to everyone and my main gripe against the TF gurus.

You don't say - just not treat.
You discuss the situation on hand, and see what is possible, and what is not possible, and what to expect, and how to get from A to B.

For sure if you sell T bees to an experimenting TF beek - at least be honest about it (the bees are likely to drop dead; the money are likely thrown away).
All in all - issues all way around; I don't care T or TF.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> I have never understood the logic of learning how to keep bees on T, then learning how to keep them off. Why not just start learning the basics with TF stock, if that’s how you want to raise bees:scratch: I am almost certain if I would have started with treated packages or nucs, I would still be treating them.


That is what many of the gurus did. They treated and it didn't work so they stopped and made the switch and began on the pathways of enlightenment. Lo and behold they found super bees that not only survived every year but produce jaw dropping honey crops. Puhlease I was a kid when I got into beekeeping. As an adult I don't as easily fall for cons

None of their methods worked for me after years of purchasing from TF nucs and queens (and the same goes for most beekeepers) when I started taking things serious I stopped losing bees. To think mites are not and will never be an issue is folly. Yes I do think the impacts can be lessened but the TF dogma is responsible for much irresponsible beekeeping. Nothing in life worth doing is easy

This post is not me frustrated with you fields of honey it is me venting about the TF message in general


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

LOL. Kirk Webster has said that mites are our friends and we should actually build a shrine to them. 



MillerPutnam said:


> My (still) friend will be moving his bees to a piece of property he owns in the mountains a few counties over. I will be helping him with a new Warré Hive he is going to try (with a colony I will sell him).


Sounds like the best outcome Miller. It is near certain that your friend will lose his hives, but at least his problems will not be your problems.

Long as you don't get too involved in supplying resources to prop him up, which could be a bottomless pit.


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## Barhopper (Mar 5, 2015)

JWPalmer said:


> To heck with all that, treat his hives and don't tell him. You have to protect your bees. In the time between now and next spring, maybe you can bring him around or help him find another place for his hives to die.


This is what I do. I have and have had people keep bees in my yards. One guy wanted to be treatment free but his hives got treated when mine did. I finally told him so he wouldn’t think that his treatment free idea was working. The other one was fine with it. If they’re in your yard the should follow your rules. If they don’t like it they can leave, friend or not.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When treating doesn't work the people who believe in treating blame those who are not treating. Why not count mites and see how the untreated hives are doing? Mine do fine with no treatments at all...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Michael Bush said:


> When treating doesn't work the people who believe in treating blame those who are not treating. Why not count mites and see how the untreated hives are doing? Mine do fine with no treatments at all...


Michael, 
I contend when you say your bees "do fine with no treatments at all", you should qualify and clarify.

Specifically - what is exact status of your bees, what is their history, and legacy and lineage.
What it took your personally to get from the A to the B (effort, time, decisions).
This would be just one example.

You should specify WHAT will it take and what to EXPECT (which is in most instances - high initial mortality - this is what I experience BUT I am ready for it as a part of the deal - the others, however, get cold feet very quickly).

Otherwise, more people will attempt the same silly TF adventure with the worthless purchased package bees - and fail - and we are in the never-ending nonsense.
The simple "do not treat" is a counter-productive talk and a part of the problem.

If you do it on your site, that'd be just fine - so you can just refer to it.
If you already have the list of such specs - great! 
If you offer your own stock for purchase as one prerequisite - that is fine also, because this is a valid prerequisite.

Let us see the specs. 
One page outline be the best. 
A very practical no-nonsense list of items be the best.
Cases/conditions where TF is not possible/too resource expensive would be great to include.

Maybe I am missing out and have not read your site lately (no, I don't check it daily).

Right now - all people hear - "Mine do fine with no treatments at all".
This is not good enough, if not outright bad. 
Sends too many wrong signals. 
Creates too many doomed attempts at TF by unprepared/unqualified people - creates more problems for everyone in the end.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I contend when you say your bees "do fine with no treatments at all", you should qualify and clarify.

I think I have many times.

>Specifically - what is exact status of your bees, what is their history, and legacy and lineage.

>What it took your personally to get from the A to the B (effort, time, decisions).

>You should specify WHAT will it take and what to EXPECT (which is in most instances - high initial mortality - this is what I experience BUT I am ready for it as a part of the deal - the others, however, get cold feet very quickly).

I had catastrophic losses when treating and when not treating when Varroa first arrived. After stopping treatment, regressing to natural size and after going to local survivor stock losses fell to at or below the average losses for Nebraska for that year. Losses go up and down depending on how harsh the winter is.

>Otherwise, more people will attempt the same silly TF adventure with the worthless purchased package bees - and fail - and we are in the never-ending nonsense.
The simple "do not treat" is a counter-productive talk and a part of the problem.

My point isn't that not treating will necessarily succeed, but everyone is assuming failure without measuring to see if they are failing. Just because they are treating or not treating does not insure success or failure. Why not count mites before making assumptions about the outcome?

>If you do it on your site, that'd be just fine - so you can just refer to it.

There is what equates to 640 printed pages on my web site on what I do.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> I had catastrophic losses when treating.


Did you check to see if the treatment worked?

Cos if it worked, the catastrophic losses would not have been caused by mites.

A hive that was treated but the treatment didn't kill the mites, is effectively in the same boat as an untreated hive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Michael Bush said:


> ........
> 
> There is what equates to 640 printed pages on my web site on what I do.


And I also own your paper book in a fancy hard cover which I mostly read (parts that are important to me).

But really, being an expert, you should be able to outline the essence of those 640 pages on a single outline and call it - "The List".
And be done with it all.

(Deleted the rest of this post... on a second thought).


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The outline:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm

More details:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ok; just moved my post to my own thread as it becomes a heavy off-topic.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

JWPalmer said:


> To heck with all that, treat his hives and don't tell him. You have to protect your bees. In the time between now and next spring, maybe you can bring him around or help him find another place for his hives to die.


That’s what I’d do until he decided to either treat or move his bees.


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## jeremys (Jul 14, 2016)

I wouldn't be concerned as I've been treatment free for over 12 years and for the most part my bees can handle it on their own. That said, Since your bees likely have little or no resistance to the mites; since you treat and probably got them from treated stock, it could be a big problem for you; especially if it's the first year for his bees being treatment free. Likely they will both die, probably in the winter, but maybe in the fall. If it's in the fall you'll end up with his mites. Put some distance between the two of you. Just a few hundred yards can make a big difference. If it's your yard, ask him to leave. If it's his you leave, and if it's on someone else's property you need to work out who gets it.


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## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

Have you or your friend checked the 2 hives for their mite counts recently? Bees go into neighboring hives frequently. To my understanding bees carrying pollen and nectar are welcomed sometimes. Drones cross over to other hives too. It's one of the ways mites are spread to neighboring hives.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I can’t help myself, I am chiming in with the somewhat experience with my experiment. I used a top bar hive placed within the apiary but on the far end away from the other hives and did not treat at all. The hive lasted 2 years before it collapsed; the bee’s absconded. There is also an EAS Master Beekeeper who did this experiment also to no avail. He does varroa presentations to various Clubs. Needless to say it is very disappointing. Another beekeeper who started with me, we were in the same Club, started out TF, did the classes out in the desert with Dee Lusby & husband, and Micheal Bush, knowledgeable TF people. I believe her hives, I don’t know how many, eventually collapsed after 3-4 yrs. If I remember correctly someone with hives moved into her area, maybe that’s what happened.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

So I agree folks using same apiary should be on same page. I don't think anyone should treat bees without telling the owner. However, the operator of the apiary calls the shots: if you treat and he does not want to he can move before you start treating or accept hat his bees will get treated the same as yours.
I also agree that there is no point starting with t and then going tf. Start the way you want. BUT source your bees from someone local doing it the way you want or expect a long and painful road. And if you decide to go down that road make sure you are not having fall crashes that spread mites and diseases to your neighbors.
I have experienced
1) I have a treatment free apiary that a friend moved next to and started keeping and treating his bees. I had a fairly stable population of only 8 colonies there. My losses spiked and he had very low survival rates. (I did not help him with treatments so I do not know if they were unsuccessful.) he has now moved on. I have been able to stabilize a bit but not as well as it was. Now another neighbor is keeping bees. He may or may not use oa or formic. He is frustratingly unforthcoming. He seems worried about losing bees but seems to loose them anyway.... 
2) Another tf yard I have with about 40 colonies is not as stable: I have a tf neighbor who looses about 100% of his bees each year. This year he bought 24 overwintered nucs. I assume they are almost dead. In past years he has bought fewer. He does not buy from me and I believe his source is a treated apiary north of us. I assume I am dealing with his mites. It could be frustrating but I generally have fairly decent survival. One year was worse than state average. One year was same. Many years were 10-15% loss (those were the honeymoon years when I did not have such crazy neighbor's....) I have never treated with anything but sugar when they were hungry....
So treating does not mean they are not mismanaged. And tf is not necessarily viable. I guess I's also suggest that it's best to find a local mentor who keeps bees like you do (ie he should treat or get another mentor who knows tf).


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## rinkevichjm (Feb 14, 2018)

Just get an MMK and send him a treatment bill.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>To heck with all that, treat his hives and don't tell him. You have to protect your bees.

So, you'd lie to him and let him think his untreated bees are doing fine as untreated when actually they are being treated. Seems like you're misleading him in more than one way. Wouldn't honesty be better?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

This a perfect case of needing and reading that stupid simple, one-page general "TF to-do list" that even a child can understand.

Before you do anything - you ask, is it possible and a good idea to try the TF in my situation?

Well, silly - NOT in someone else's yard (a yard of treated bees, of all places).

The #1 is the feasibility check.


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## texorgano (Nov 30, 2014)

MillerPutnam said:


> I have a friend whom I’m mentoring that has decided not to treat his two hives in my apiary. I have about 15 hives my son and I treat with vaporized Oxalic acid. Should I worry about having two untreated hives within my apiary and could the two untreated hives help spread mites into my treated hives ? Really hope I can get some guidance from other beekeepers.


The short answer is yes his hives will transmit varroa mites to your hives. I believe in untreated hives but I would not put my untreated hives with another beekeepers hives. Untreated hives lets the bees develop their own defences against pests but in the process some hives are lost. This is the way of natural selection in nature. Commercial beekeepers must treat for financial reasons but they are breeding weak bees.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Michael Bush said:


> So, you'd lie to him and let him think his untreated bees are doing fine as untreated when actually they are being treated. Seems like you're misleading him in more than one way. Wouldn't honesty be better?


Honesty is better and I would tell him after the fact while working towards an understanding of the risks involved. A true friend would not want to put my hives in danger as he works towards regressing his bees and becoming TF. But I would absolutely treat his hives so that mine would not die. The point is moot as the friend has already agreed to move his hives.

FWIW, I switched to foundationless this year with the hope that the bees know better what size cells to build. Mite drops after treating were very low in most of my hives this fall so there seems to be progress, but it will take time.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> but the TF dogma is responsible for much irresponsible beekeeping.


 There is no "dogma" involved. It is a solidly proven concept, but repeatedly misapplied. Mite resistance is very clearly genetic and it is not just based on one trait such as VSH. Where this goes south is when a new beekeeper buys a bunch of treated bees, does not treat. They do fine the first year then collapse the second. This is typical of mite susceptible bees! It is very possible to keep bees using mite resistant genetics. Unfortunately, there are not many commercial sources for queens or packages.

Even with mite resistant bees, the genetics can be overwhelmed if enough mites are brought into a colony such as from a hive collapsing from mite infestation.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Oldtimer said:


> I would worry, yes.
> 
> If his hives get loaded up with mites, they will very definately spread into your hives.
> 
> ...


good advice Old Timer. IMO your "yard" is "I treat with vaporized Oxalic acid." If you want to have your hives in my yard this is the way we do it.......
if he is insistent his hives not be treated, then ask him to kindly remove them from your "treated" yard. Sounds like he has a different mentor "treatment free" he can take them there, as he is not following your advice any way. give him a week and then Vape them. A real friend would understand your position.
GG


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