# Acebirds one hive



## Acebird

Today was the day for harvesting. Started out at 50 degrees, sunshine and no wind.

Surprise, surprise, hive is infested with hive beetles. First box had 200 or more beetles and thousands of bees chasing them. Box was crammed full of capped honey. Bees were as gentle as one would hope for. Second box was crammed full of honey except for some nectar in the outside frames. I shook the nectar into the next box on the hive as I was going along. Third box was crammed full of honey and a tiny bit of nectar in the outside frames, Hive beetles decreased as I picked boxes off the hive. Fourth box was crammed full of honey and I left it.

It took me two hours to sweep all the bees and hive beetles off the frames before putting them in empty boxes on the tailgate of the truck. They are now in the freezer.

So it appears that my problem of wax moths in August where I lost three hives was not wax moth at all. It was hive beetles. I am now praying for a heavy frost. I am prepared to lose this hive over the winter because I can't imagine it will handle the hive beetle infection. If I wanted to write this hive off now I think I could get two more boxes of honey from it. I have never had so much honey from one hive.

I finished up at 12:30 and it was 55 degrees. The hive was wide open for two solid hours and the bees could have cared less. It was like a summer day for them.


----------



## RayMarler

Your story makes me so thankful that I do not have hive beetles here. Varroa mites are bad enough without having to deal with those beetles as well. Sounds like you had a great harvest, congratulations! 

Are you going to shake out the bees and take the rest of the honey? Or are you doing to try to deal with the SHB? Or are you going to just let the hive be and see what happens?


----------



## David LaFerney

That's a lot of beetles, but if the hive doesn't have some other problem (especially queenlessness) I wouldn't write it off at all. They usually are not the only thing involved when a hive goes down.


----------



## odfrank

One hive infested with SHB, practicing non intervention beekeeping, and 9590 posts....makes you wonder.....


----------



## sqkcrk

So, Brian, no open comb, no eggs, larvae, pupae, or capped brood?


----------



## clyderoad

Sounds like your quite the beekeeper.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> So, Brian, no open comb, no eggs, larvae, pupae, or capped brood?


After two hours they had enough of me. I broke the fourth box loose to give it a heft and I could see there was more honey below. remember I was bare handed and already took a stink. Very slight though. I wasn't sure I was stung until I saw the stinger sack. It was so mild.



> Or are you going to just let the hive be and see what happens?


You can probably guess my answer Ray, but yes.



> Your story makes me so thankful that I do not have hive beetles here.


Well normally hive beetles are not a problem in Upstate NY which is why I thought the original problem was wax moth.

Oh and lets give credit where credit is due. Two of these boxes are foundation where the frames only had 3/4 sheets. The bees filled in the other quarter on each end of the foundation. some of the most perfect frames of honey I have gotten. Thank you very much for the idea Lauri. I will make it my standard practice. These were not brood combs these were strictly honey combs.


----------



## stan.vick

Brian, I certainly wouldn't write the hive off, I think it has a good chance of making it through the winter, because you have just decreased the amount of area the bees have to control.


----------



## beepro

Any idea what type of queen from that hive? Is it a carni, russian, italian or ?


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> After two hours they had enough of me. I broke the fourth box loose to give it a heft and I could see there was more honey below. remember I was bare handed and already took a stink. Very slight though. I wasn't sure I was stung until I saw the stinger sack. It was so mild.


No smoker?


----------



## Acebird

Yes, that thought had crossed my mind but I have never seen so many beetles. I think it is uncommon up here.
What I have learned... next time I will not be so lazy. I have the freezer space. I will freeze a box no matter what the infestation is before I put it on a good hive. I never got into open comb so I don't know if varoa is an issue. The bees looked very healthy. This hive has a solid bottom board on it so I can't get a mite fall from it. One concern I have is none of the boxes left on the hive have a hole in it so the only vent I have is the small notch in the inner cover.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> No smoker?


Of course a smoker. I even refilled it with sawdust because it was running out. But here is my question. At 50 degrees the smoke goes straight up. The only effective way of smoking is through the lower entrance. How do you effectively smoke the top of the hive when it is cool outside? If I pumped the smoker too aggressively it just pissed off the bees. It did not make them go down and leave the dripping honey on top of the frames. The only way I got them off the top of the frames was to shave the burr comb full of honey off the top and scrap it off on a 2x4 near by. I had dripping honey all over the place.


----------



## Michael Palmer

Acebird said:


> But here is my question. At 50 degrees the smoke goes straight up. The only effective way of smoking is through the lower entrance. How do you effectively smoke the top of the hive when it is cool outside?


Pump the inner cover up and down.


----------



## sqkcrk

Sawdust? Or shavings? How do you light sawdust? And keep it smoldering? And how do you keep it from pouring out the hole?


----------



## laketrout

( This hive has a solid bottom board on it can't get a mite fall from it. )


Ace why not a typical sticky board with a screen on top, on solid bottom board .Buy them from any of the bee supply stores or make them .


----------



## RudyT

I highly recommend a bottom oil trap, such as the freeman beetle trap. The bees chase the SHB -- the ones that fall into the oil trap don't get back up. Even now, it might make a big difference.


----------



## sqkcrk

I highly recommend that Brian take as much honey as he can from this hive and extract it. There is no way what he has already described will survive the Winter. Considering everything we know about everything at Acebird Apiary.


----------



## max2

"It took me two hours to sweep all the bees and hive beetles off the frames before putting them in empty boxes on the tailgate of the truck. They are now in the freezer.""

Why the bees in the freezer, Brian?

We have SHB. I use Beetle Blaster traps which I change every 3 weeks and we can stay on top. 

You may find that you need to extract honey a few times during the season.

get a second hive - not all hives are equally affected by SHB

Enjoy the honey and don't give up.


----------



## Charlie B

Brian,

For as much advice as you throw out I have to say I'm a little disappointed in your failure to recognize the beginning stages of a SHB infestation. We don't have SHB here in SF but I know enough about it to be alert to the warning signs.


----------



## Oldtimer

I suspect that next spring you will be calling on the services of a beekeeper who does intervene, to get you stocked with some bees again.


----------



## dsegrest

Experience is a mean teacher, but it would be a shame to waste all you've learned. Think of this as a chance to start over and do everything right.(sure) Maybe, do more stuff right. You have some extremely productive bees and plenty of woodenware. 

Start with some diatomaceous earth under the hive(s) and invest $34 or a few hours in a Freeman bottom board. Clean and sanitize all of the old woodenware and give the hive a complete new home. Don't blame the mess on the queen. Blame it on the bee-keeper. You can do something about that.


----------



## My-smokepole

As soon as I see them the traps go in. A club member made up a interesting trap. Basically a fram with a saw cut on most of the top with Plastic sides. He would pull it and freeze them.


----------



## Michael Palmer

Acebird said:


> Yes, that thought had crossed my mind but I have never seen so many beetles. I think it is uncommon up here.


So, where are they coming from? Have you got a large migratory apiary near you, or package/nuc bees near you that are coming from southern locations? If so, you need to be more observant and keep on top of things next year.


----------



## dsegrest

I have 4 hives and I saw my 1st hive beetle of the season last week. It was in a hive that I bought (everything new). It has a standard screened bottom board. All of my other hives have the freeman style bottom boards. The mulch under the hives has diatomaceous earth left over from last year. 

Today I will renew the DE. Wednesday is the next warm day and that is when that hive goes onto a Freeman style bottom board. 

By the way don't put those boards on and forget to change the oil. It gets really grody and turns almost solid. Not sure but it could exacerbate the problem.


----------



## Acebird

Michael Palmer said:


> Pump the inner cover up and down.


That is why I like beesource ... great idea Mike. Thanks


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Sawdust? Or shavings? How do you light sawdust? And keep it smoldering? And how do you keep it from pouring out the hole?


Carefully Mark, sawdust can be explosive. You light a roll of cardboard and after it is going good you dump a hand full of sawdust on top and shake it down. When it smolders it glues together and doesn't fall through the holes in the bottom.

Laketrout, normally I use SBB but I ran out when I did splits in the spring.

Charlie, have I given advice on SHB, my bad?

OT is there something wrong with starting over?

Do you think that 5 medium boxes of honey would pay for a nuc?


----------



## Michael Palmer

Acebird said:


> Do you think that 5 medium boxes of honey would pay for a nuc?


5 mediums puffed out full would be near 200 lb. More than enough to buy 2 nucs.


----------



## sqkcrk

dsegrest said:


> Experience is a mean teacher, but it would be a shame to waste all you've learned.


What has been learned? Let's not assume things not in evidence. Sorry, Brian. You know how things look to me.


----------



## justusflynns

Acebird said:


> Charlie, have I given advice on SHB, my bad?


In Brian's defense, he has stuck mainly with storm prep.
(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)


----------



## Acebird

Michael Palmer said:


> So, where are they coming from?


They were in the first nuc I bought 3 years ago but there were never more than 5 or so beetles in the hive. Thinking SHB is not a problem in NYS and never witnessing the problem in three years I never paid attention to seeing one or two near the top cover.

There are commercial keepers in the area but I am not going to blame them. It is strictly my fault. I believe the beetles were in the boxes of honey I had in the house over the winter and when I used these frames for splits the population exploded. I caught it early and pulled the boxes off but it was late enough that they got into the other boxes. All the while I was thinking the worms were wax moth and I was advised that a strong hive could clean up wax moth damage. What perplexes me is these two hives (result of a split) kept on trucking, building in population and bringing in honey. The queenless side obviously was slower than the queen right side.

What I have learned for the future is no honey frame will go into a split without going through a freeze cycle. I think things would have been totally different if I had done that.

I am not going to buy a whole bunch of different equipment to combat SHB. No one that I know does that up hear.


----------



## Acebird

Michael Palmer said:


> 5 mediums puffed out full would be near 200 lb. More than enough to buy 2 nucs.


I feel the same. Certainly not something I am going to cry about.


----------



## jim lyon

You sure they are shb? I am not reading anything about comb and honey covered with slime.


----------



## Acebird

justusflynns said:


> In Brian's defense, he has stuck mainly with storm prep.
> (Sorry. Couldn't resist.)


Yup, I have never had one blow over.


----------



## sqkcrk

SHB in NY, and perhaps also in most Northern States, is an indicator of other problems, if they get to the point where they are a problem in a bee hive. They are a symptom, not the cause.

Your hive is practically in downtown Utica, ins't it? There are no commercial/migratory beekeepers close enough to you to get SHB from them.


----------



## sqkcrk

jim lyon said:


> You sure they are shb? I am not reading anything about comb and honey covered with slime.


First step in the diagnosis of a problem is properly determining the circumstances and conditions. Photos of the beetles would help.


----------



## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> You sure they are shb? I am not reading anything about comb and honey covered with slime.


Well thinking back those first frames were full honey frames that the worms had decapped and the honey, maybe slime, was dripping down. I did taste it and it tasted like honey though.

Jim can you answer this question? Isn't it too cool now for the hive beetle to raise young? I believe the hive beetle survives the winter by hiding in the cluster. The bees break cluster in the fall off and on and then the chase begins. Should I expect the bottom boxes to be slimmed? There was no slime what so ever in the top four supers. There is three more boxes below that.


----------



## Acebird

Mark, they look like this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=hiv...2FResearch%2Fdocs.htm%3Fdocid%3D18993;923;599


----------



## sqkcrk

Yup, small hive beetles.

Now, are there really enough of them to have caused damage to your bees and the hive they occupy? What is the condition of your colony? Queen right? Raising healthy looking brood? Has a strong enough adult bee population to Winter? Has enough honey on which to Winter?


----------



## jim lyon

Those are the mamas all right, it's not at all unusual to see them but it's the larvae that does the damage. A strong hive can clean out the eggs but not the larvae once they get a foothold. 
Those masses of small larvae destroying and sliming everything in their path is the real threat. Yes, cool weather is your friend and your steps to freeze your honey boxes before storing them in a warm area is a very good one. A few adults may well winter through (if your hive does) but they aren't necessarily a problem.


----------



## sqkcrk

The point I am trying to get across is that the situation as it is now is the result, not the cause. It is the result of not fully understanding and addressing circumstances and conditions earlier in the season. It would not surprise me at all to find out that Brian's colony is actually queenless, right now. And has been so for more than a month. I'm not saying that it is. Just that it could be. And may well be.

The presence of many SHBs indicates to me deeper problems than just SHBs.


----------



## clyderoad

sqkcrk said:


> The point I am trying to get across is that the situation as it is now is the result, not the cause. It is the result of not fully understanding and addressing circumstances and conditions earlier in the season. It would not surprise me at all to find out that Brian's colony is actually queenless, right now. And has been so for more than a month. I'm not saying that it is. Just that it could be. And may well be.
> 
> The presence of many SHBs indicates to me deeper problems than just SHBs.


Well said Mark.

"It is the result of not fully understanding and addressing circumstances and conditions earlier in the season."

More time listening instead of talking would help solve this problem.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Yup, small hive beetles.
> 
> Now, are there really enough of them to have caused damage to your bees and the hive they occupy?


What is the magic number?



> What is the condition of your colony? Queen right? Raising healthy looking brood? Has a strong enough adult bee population to Winter? Has enough honey on which to Winter?


Queen right and healthy looking brood I am not sure of. I never am and never will be until after the fact. Do you think a queenless hive split in the spring could fill 5 boxes of honey? Would they be as gentle as a lamb?

I am pretty sure they have enough bees and I am confident that the colony has enough honey


----------



## beemandan

Acebird said:


> Well thinking back those first frames were full honey frames that the worms had decapped and the honey, maybe slime, was dripping down.


 If shb larvae have invaded your honey supers, the war...without serious intervention....has already been lost.
You should go ahead and order replacement bees for next spring.


----------



## mathesonequip

sqkcrk said:


> I highly recommend that Brian take as much honey as he can from this hive and extract it. There is no way what he has already described will survive the Winter. Considering everything we know about everything at Acebird Apiary.


let's not stir up a hornets nest.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Queen right and healthy looking brood I am not sure of. I never am and never will be until after the fact. Do you think a queenless hive split in the spring could fill 5 boxes of honey? Would they be as gentle as a lamb?
> 
> I am pretty sure they have enough bees and I am confident that the colony has enough honey


Then you need to determine whether they are queen right and have healthy looking brood before you can determine much more. If your colony was queen right in the Spring, and I believe it was or it would not be in its current condition, it may well have become queenless later on. Six to eight weeks ago perhaps. It may have cast a late Summer swarm and failed to requeen itself.

A queenless hive can easily fill 5 medium depth supers on the goldenrod flow in or near Utica, NY. And be gentle too.

Enough honey for what? Enough bees for what? Winter survival? I don't see how you can be pretty sure of anything w/out KNOWING whether you have a functioning queen.

Never the less or maybe better said, Regardless, it's too late for you to treat this colony for varroa mites, so I think you should salvage what you can. In other words, harvest all of the honey now. Or you could wait until the Spring to harvest. It matters not a whit.


----------



## crewdog61

Just to toss my 2 cents in the ring, very early spring this year 2014, I put close to 70 pounds of rock salt all around my hives. This did two things I did not have to cut grass at all around the hives and had very little if any small SHB out of 8 hives 2 hives had a total of 8 SHB put 2 traps pre deep in all my hives nothing all summer long, just those 8 beetles in traps of those 2 hives. I could be missing something but never saw any during hive inspections or running across the enter cover. Will do this again this next spring.


----------



## Oldtimer

Acebird said:


> OT is there something wrong with starting over?


Yes, there are times when it is and I see it from time to time.

It's when a beekeeper promotes a certain (usually unconventional) management technique, and writes copious posts telling others how easy / successful / good for the bees etc his method is and why it is better than the conventional method.

Then the crap hits the fan and he has to turn to those conventional beekeepers he's been criticising to get some actual live bees.

But the worst part of this is when despite needing his beekeeping to be propped up by those he criticises, once they supply him the bees he goes right back to his failed method and does it all over, having learned nothing from the experience.

While a person can argue they own the bees & therefore can do with them whatever they want, failure must be a frustrating experience and it's sad seeing people setting themselves up for it on principle.

All that is not just aimed at you A, lots of people do it. I used to argue and try to force them to change but have now realised that's all wrong doesn't work they dig their toes in. I help the willing, that's it.


----------



## sqkcrk

:thumbsup:


----------



## jim lyon

D


crewdog61 said:


> Just to toss my 2 cents in the ring, very early spring this year 2014, I put close to 70 pounds of rock salt all around my hives. This did two things I did not have to cut grass at all around the hives and had very little if any small SHB out of 8 hives 2 hives had a total of 8 SHB put 2 traps pre deep in all my hives nothing all summer long, just those 8 beetles in traps of those 2 hives. I could be missing something but never saw any during hive inspections or running across the enter cover. Will do this again this next spring.


SHB will fly for miles and are highly prolific. For whatever reason they are much more of a problem in warm coastal climates. Your best defense is keeping hives out of deep shade and not giving them much empty space to occupy. Traps are certainly good if you have experienced problems in the past. Treatment of the ground immediately surrounding hives isn't going to hurt but I'm not at all convinced it will help.


----------



## waynesgarden

I blame the bees.

Non-intervention beekeeping means never having to say you screwed up.

Wayne


----------



## Lauri

Glad you liked the frames Brian. They work good for me too. Cool, huh.


----------



## FlowerPlanter

>SHB in NY, and perhaps also in most Northern States, is an indicator of other problems, if they get to the point where they are a problem in a bee hive. They are a symptom, not the cause.

>What is the condition of your colony? Queen right? Raising healthy looking brood? Has a strong enough adult bee population to Winter? 

>Queen right and healthy looking brood I am not sure of. 

I would find out what the brood pattern looks like just to rule out disease?

If not you might end up with the same thing next year.


----------



## Specialkayme

odfrank said:


> One hive infested with SHB, practicing non intervention beekeeping, and 9590 posts....makes you wonder.....


In a little over three years none the less. Averaging 7.39 posts per day. Assuming he opens his one hive once a month (which may be a vast overestimate), he's giving 221.7 times more advice to others than he is looking at his own hive.



Acebird said:


> After two hours they had enough of me.


What were you doing for TWO HOURS? Most can check an entire apiary in half that time. Either you don't know what you're doing when you open the hive, you aren't practicing "non-intervention" beekeeping (by intervening for over two hours), or both.



Acebird said:


> So it appears that my problem of wax moths in August where I lost three hives was not wax moth at all. It was hive beetles.


I have never seen a hive collapse from wax moths. Wax moths move in after the hive has collapsed (or, the eggs hatch after collapse). I've never known a strong colony, with a properly sized brood chamber, to collapse from SHB either. If SHB is what gets them, it's either their cavity was too large and they couldn't patrol the whole thing (and some SHB hatched, then grew to the point that the bees couldn't take care of it, and they abscond), or the colony is too weak to properly defend the cavity (or both).

But when you open a hive after it collapses, you should be able to CLEARLY see the difference between just a wax moth infestation and just a SHB infestation. One leaves webbing everywhere, the other slimes the frames.


----------



## wcnewby

I read about hive beetles. I read about as many bee problems as I could discover. What they do is lay eggs in cracks where the bees can't get them. They have a long depositor. If you can cut down on the cracks they lay in you might be able to cut down on them. I used this closed cell foam type tape weather stripping between the boxes. I'm not sure that we get hive beetles in Wisconsin, but weather stripping has kept the bees from gluing my boxes together. They can't get propolis between them.


----------



## Michael Palmer

Acebird said:


> It is strictly my fault. I believe the beetles were in the boxes of honey I had in the house over the winter and when I used these frames for splits the population exploded.


I bet you won't keep full honey supers in the house again.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> So it appears that my problem of wax moths in August where I lost three hives was not wax moth at all.


Wax moths are an indicator of other problems too, just like SHB.


----------



## Acebird

Lauri said:


> Glad you liked the frames Brian. They work good for me too. Cool, huh.


You could have just beat up on me like everyone else but no you say something positive. You are like my wife and that is why I like you.
Yes, very cool. Thanks.


----------



## Acebird

Michael Palmer said:


> I bet you won't keep full honey supers in the house again.


I won't swear to that but If I do the frames will be frozen before they go into a hive. What bothers me is they looked like clean frames of honey. It must be the eggs lay dormant and get triggered by temperature or something else to hatch.


----------



## Acebird

Specialkayme said:


> One leaves webbing everywhere, the other slimes the frames.


You know everything so I will ask you. THE INSTANT THE EGGS HATCH? Where were you when I asked the question what they were way back then. Your mouth runs pretty good now but I never heard from you then.


----------



## sqkcrk

Had he been there then and answered what would you have done about it? If past behavior is any predictor ... .


----------



## hilreal

If you think you might lose it try this experiment. Take the cover and inner cover off and replace it with clear plexiglass. I read this a couple of times on this forum and tried it in a 2 deep nuc in the same situation as your hive. Every time I opened the cover I could squish 6-10 beetles. After a couple of weeks with the clear cover I could not find one anywhere. Not a very large experiment but seemed to work. Theory I guess is that the beetles do not like the light and are driven below where the bees can take care of eliminating them. (Idea came from someone in Ga. invested with SHB).


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Wax moths are an indicator of other problems too, just like SHB.


Is that what Confucius says. It says nothing. You suggested I put the box on the hive for the bees to clean up. You do remember that don't you? You have some idea that it is the non intervention that killed my hives. I don't see it that way. I see it as it was the intrevention that killed my hives, especially this one.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Had he been there then and answered what would you have done about it?


I would have done what I always do. I would listen to what he has to say and make a decision that suits me. The beauty of a forum is there is more than one opinion. Beekeepers love that don't they? If I had known that the worms were hive beetles my course of action would have been different.


----------



## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> D
> Treatment of the ground immediately surrounding hives isn't going to hurt but I'm not at all convinced it will help.


Funny you should mention that. This year because of the number of hives from the splits I did in spring I put the hives on pallets. Well the pallets prevented the chickens from scratching right up next to the hive like they were doing before. I don't think that helped the situation. I also don't think it helped that the chicken yard grew in so much this year that everything was shaded much more than before.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Is that what Confucius says. It says nothing. You suggested I put the box on the hive for the bees to clean up. You do remember that don't you? You have some idea that it is the non intervention that killed my hives. I don't see it that way. I see it as it was the intrevention that killed my hives, especially this one.


Those that understand what I meant by what I wrote would disagree w/ you.

No, I don't remember. I thought you said that this colony is alive. Is this hive dead? The one you have left?

If intervention killed your hive, then it was not intervention that killed your hive, it was what you did or didn't do during your "intervention". What ever that might have or might not have been.


----------



## clyderoad

Yup it's specialkayme's and sqkcrk's fault. 
And the dreaded intervention.

His teachability is obviously hopeless.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> I thought you said that this colony is alive. Is this hive dead? The one you have left?


Your best guess is it is dead my best guess is it is alive. We are both guessing.


----------



## sqkcrk

All I (we) have to go on is what you tell us. You have the power and ability to find out if this colony is alive/reproductive. Only you. I'm simply reacting to what you describe. So, if my diagnosis, from afar, is wrong, whose fault is that?

W/ *all* we know, in all likelihood, this colony is a goner. It will not survive the Winter. So, cut your losses. That's my advise. Which is worth exactly what you paid for it. I am not your wife, nor am I Lauri, so don't bemoan my not sugar coating.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> No, I don't remember.


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?300563-When-does-the-webbing-come

Post #4


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Well the pallets prevented the chickens from scratching right up next to the hive like they were doing before. I don't think that helped the situation. I also don't think it helped that the chicken yard grew in so much this year that everything was shaded much more than before.


You are reaching for reasons. That's how it looks to me. For what it's worth.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?300563-When-does-the-webbing-come
> 
> Post #4


I didn't say I didn't believe you. I said I didn't remember. I don't remember everything I write.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> You have the power and ability to find out if this colony is alive/reproductive. Only you.


I suspect this would mean another hard core intervention where I would run the risk of killing the queen if there is one. What would I be looking for brood? And if there is none it would not just mean that the queen shut down for the winter. How many post are there at this time of year where people are finding no brood? Is this a sure sign that the colony is done for?

And my final question is what difference does it make as far as cutting my loses, a box of honey?


----------



## sqkcrk

Are you really sure you want my advice? Maybe someone else's would be better. Lauri? What do you think Brian should do?

I sense an attitude that I don't understand/get. You call what I, and others, do regularly a "hard core intervention", "where I would run the risk of killing the queen". Seems like fear and uncertainty. Am I right about that?


----------



## FlowerPlanter

>What would I be looking for brood?

*YES* - this should be the goal every time one looks into a hive (assuming one know what healthy brood looks like)

>How many post are there at this time of year where people are finding no brood?
They all seem to have problems:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?303937-Dark-comb-and-no-eggs

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...o-combine-a-wea-hive-and-a-newly-caught-swarm

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304193-no-brood&p=1171812#post1171812


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> what difference does it make as far as cutting my loses, a box of honey?


No difference at all. Other than another chance lost in which you could learn something about your bees, another opportunity to get into your hive and see what you can. Plus, it is not unlikely that a dead and unattended hive in the Spring could be robbed by neighborhood bees, thereby loosing honey you could have harvested.

From here, there is nothing wrong w/ doing nothing. Matters not to me. Has no negative impact on anyone else.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> You are reaching for reasons.


After a catastrophe I would think it normal to go back and try to figure out what is different in my apiary that could have cause it. I am writing my thoughts on the forum so people can confirm or deny the possibilities. Other things that I have done is laid these infected frames on open pallets (next to the hives) for the chickens and the bees to clean up. And they did a good job. What I didn't think of though is that the chickens could not get between the pallet slats. So I am giving up on placing hives on pallets and going back to SBB with inspection pans.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> it is not unlikely that a dead and unattended hive in the Spring could be robbed by neighborhood bees, thereby loosing honey you could have harvested.


Spring is a long way away and there will be concrete evidence before spring if the colony is dead. I can harvest the honey in the middle of the winter.



> another opportunity to get into your hive and see what you can.


What am I going to see? What am I looking for? What can I do if I find it that will make a real difference vs. killing a potential queen and brood if it is there?


----------



## sqkcrk

The problem is not in the ground under your hives. I can see how making it possible for your chickens to scratch around under and around your hives may have a positive impact on SHB larvae, but the problems are in your hive. Not so much the ground or the shade, but inside your hive.

There is nothing wrong w/ managing your whole apiary, the yard wherein your bee hive is set, but if you take care of everything you can inside of your hive your bees will be fine.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> What am I going to see? What am I looking for? What can I do if I find it that will make a real difference vs. killing a potential queen and brood if it is there?


Would you please get over your fear of killing a queen, please? It isn't like every time a hive is opened a queen dies. The way you express yourself is so conflated. "After a catastrophe"?


----------



## dsegrest

sqkcrk said:


> What has been learned? Let's not assume things not in evidence. Sorry, Brian. You know how things look to me.


If he only learned the "wisdom" in this thread, he did well


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Seems like fear and uncertainty. Am I right about that?


Always fear and uncertainty about killing the queen. There is one real drawback of non-intervention. That is the boxes and frames do not come apart easily and most likely the bottom of one frame is glued to the top of the others below. It is not a bee space problem it will happen if the boxes are not broken apart on a regular basis and more so in the brood area. I do not use a QE so the brood is raised from the top of the hive in the spring and gradually moves down. They glue it all together as they move down. I have seen this three years in a row. I don't expect it to stop.


----------



## dsegrest

Acebird said:


> I am not going to buy a whole bunch of different equipment to combat SHB. No one that I know does that up hear.


A Freeman style bottom board is not "a whole bunch of different equipment". The Cadillac version costs $34. What does a hive cost? Buy 1 and reverse engineer it. I am mechanically challenged, but I make my own now. Scrap lumber, titebond 2, 1/8" hardware cloth and 6 deckmate screws. That shouldn't break you up.


----------



## sqkcrk

This is the same thing that happens in my hives and other's hives too. It isn't a non-intervention thing. Were you under the impression that boxes and frames were loose in other people's hives? They aren't. Bees glue things together. W/ propolis if the space is narrow and w/ comb if it is wider. It has nothing to do w/ not working hives. Plus, some bees are propolis producers.


----------



## rweaver7777

dsegrest said:


> I am not going to buy a whole bunch of different equipment to combat SHB. No one that I know does that up hear.


If you're a hobby beekeeper, why wouldn't you be a responsible one and give your bees the best possible chance at survival? dsegrest is right, eheartwood.com has some dandy SBB with oil traps underneath. Since putting SBB and traps on my four hives 99% of the time the only beetles I see are in the oil. I saw exactly ONE beetle running around my inner cover this year. And we're in the middle of SHB heaven here.

Be a man and own up to spending the time to be caring for live animals. I've done my stint as a bee-haver and it is the height of irresponsibility to not inspect my hives and help them combat the issues they have in my area. I even went the 2nd mile and have entrance traps for beetles - probably went overboard as I don't see many in those. Point is, that I take my responsibility seriously as a BEEKEEPER and am learning all the time what I can do to help them survive. If I don't do that I am a failure.


----------



## mathesonequip

mr. acebird..it is not wise to argue with those that are willing to help you. if you disagree or do not like the answers be polite and listen, you do not have to follow their advise. use the answers as a place to start doing some research. the fact that you have a problem you can not deal with indicates you quite need likely to change what you are doing.... best wishes.


----------



## Richard Cryberg

The problem with non intervention is two fold it seems to me. First you have no clue what is happening in the most important part of the hive, the brood chamber. Second you provide an excellent source for infection of all your hives plus neighborhood hives. In the case of SHB neighborhood is up to five miles away. With varroa at least a couple of miles away. Allowing a hive to be infected and infect other hives is simply irresponsible. Likely the biggest single problem in bee keeping is back yard bee keepers who do not follow decent, humane cultural practices and spread disease by their actions.

I notice all my hives are glued together with propolis and ladder comb and I inspect regularly. Inspect one today and it will be glued together within at most two days. I do not think I have ever spent 30 minutes inspecting one hive (two or three supers and two or three full depth brood chambers) and generally less time than that. The only exception might be those rare times I am looking for the queen because I want to pinch her and replace her with a queen cell or mated queen. Even in those cases it is often a lot faster to simply move the existing hive and put a new one in place with a frame of brood and let the old bees move themselves back home. In the hundreds of times I have torn hives apart only once do I think I killed the queen by accident.

The current situation Acebird is talking about is pretty typical of nonintervention. The hive does ok for a year or two or occasionally even three than dies over the winter. Wonderful way to kill bees. Even if the varroa or beetles do not kill the hive the viruses will. I would not give a 5% chance this hive will be alive come spring after a NY winter. The only way to refine that estimate would be to do an inspection and get a virus count and nosema count run by a lab. Why bother? The odds are so poor it is not worth the money to get the counts even if there is some brood.


----------



## Specialkayme

Acebird said:


> You know everything so I will ask you. THE INSTANT THE EGGS HATCH?


The instant the eggs hatch what? Webbing occurs? Slime occurs? Certainly not. But the instant the eggs hatch the hive doesn't collapse. It's when massive quantities of eggs hatch, and you have larvae of various stages, which causes either webbing or slime to appear, that you get a hive that absconds. So if you are losing hives (like you did last year), and the hive is already lost, you can easily diagnose if it's wax moths or SHB based on what's left after. You don't need to guess. Just look.



Acebird said:


> Where were you when I asked the question what they were way back then. Your mouth runs pretty good now but I never heard from you then.


Did you ask me? I don't have any record of you emailing me, calling me, pm'ing me, calling me out in a thread. No. You just asked the forum as a whole. I wasn't on the computer that day. I was tending to my bees. I open my hives more often than I post replies. That's how you get to learn more about what you are talking about, rather than talk more than you know about.


----------



## Lauri

I have a friend at the local cedar mill who was telling me just yesterday about a hive in his barn wall that has been there for 25 years. Only absent a few times in that time period. He has enjoyed this part of nature immensely.. without intervening.
But he has local stock that is hardy, comb that has never been exposed to commercial crops, stock that is not antibiotic dependant,etc. We luckily don't have small hive beatle here.
Of course he gets no harvest from this colony. (Except pollination benefits)
Those circumstances are pretty hard to come by.
_*
Non intervention 'observational' hive ownership*_ is possible & can be somewhat successful if you have the right circumstances. But I wouldn't call it 'beekeeping'. It's more like putting out a bird house and letting nature move in & out at some point. 

If some chose to do this responsibly, I don't see the harm. Bring in bees from out of state, possibly with pests and disease and poorly acclimated genetics is done thousands of times every year by beekeepers all over the USA.

Whether left to their own devices intentionally or through ignorance, methods can be criticized, but it is widely done by more than just Acebird.
I think most folks that read this thread now realize if you leave things to chance, you shouldn't be surprised at negative results. 

(Kind of like keeping a queen from an unknown source and warmer climate than yours) 
You risk your entire colony on the unknown, hoping for the best. Surprised when the worst occurs. 
Now who hasn't done that?

Difference is, there are some of us that like control over results that learn quickly to change our behavior & put the odds in our favor. But others tend repeat leaving things to chance and hope _eventually_ they will get one to stick. I guess beekeeping methods somewhat depend on your personality traits.


Non intervention methods can be done, but Ace, you are really missing out on some neat experiences if you don't get into the hive regularly. I think you need an observation hive next year.


----------



## crofter

Actually I think this thread could be quite valuable. It certainly would give pause to anyone new that is contemplating non intervention bee having. The repeating pattern of calamities just doesnt seem to jive with all the advice given to others though; that, I can't get my head around.

I am always concerned about killing a queen this late in the season and I tend to stay out of the hive unless there is something I really need to see. The weight scale tells me most of what I need to know now.


----------



## Acebird

crofter said:


> I am always concerned about killing a queen this late in the season and I tend to stay out of the hive unless there is something I really need to see. The weight scale tells me most of what I need to know now.


Amazing Frank, the weight scale and the activity at the entrance gave me the idea that this hive was very healthy until I pulled some supers. Now you are saying you wouldn't go in this late in the season so isn't that a mixed message?

I keep hearing how little time it takes to go into a hive yet I have never been able to do it in these record times except when I got my first nuc that was 5 frames in a 10 deep box. Now that my usually hive is 5 to 7 boxes and 60 to 80 thousand bees it doesn't go so fast. I suppose I could get an observation hive and see what you want me to see but I don't see how that will help when the hive is 7 boxes high again.


----------



## snl

When I was very, very young, I enjoyed "professional" wrestling. They always had the old ladies sitting ringside ready to pounce on the unsuspecting wrestler with their pocketbook. We all knew they were paid to do so, but it was entertaining. I think of Ace as our "little old lady," but no so entertaining...........


----------



## Lauri

This thread, already has had 2342 views You have to admit, Beesource wouldn't be the same without Brian


----------



## dsegrest

I am sorry about your bees Brian; but this has been one of the best threads for quite awhile.


----------



## Oldtimer

Lauri said:


> Non intervention 'observational' hive ownership[/B][/I] is possible & can be somewhat successful if you have the right circumstances....
> 
> If some chose to do this responsibly, I don't see the harm.


Therein the problem in this case. Acebird has done just enough intervention to kill the hive / hives.

He put equipment on the hive that could have been infested with hive beetles / wax moths, didn't take the time to check for that first. Next he did not check the hive to find the problem early enough to deal with it. Finally, decided to harvest honey and despite having the hive open for 2 hours did not get inside it enough to see if there was any brood or if the brood nest is OK and if it needs anything. In each of those cases the error was that MORE intervention was needed, and if it had been done would have made it possible to save the hive.

I followed Aces beekeeping journey starting with his posts from before he had bees. reading it, it is clear he finds opening the hive difficult and intimidating and has therefore opted for "non intervention". But clearly it is not working for him.

Although you have had this advice before Ace I will repeat it even though you have found reasons not to do it. The VERY BEST thing you could do for yourself is work with an experienced beekeeper for a day. I would LOVE to take you out making nucs with me, obviously distance rules that out. But such an experience would open a whole new world for you and give great confidence to do what you should be doing with your bees.


----------



## GLOCK

All ways a fight it seems when ACE is involved .:kn:
I say if your a non-intervention beekeeper you'll get what you deserve.
I know what going on in all my hives . Just saying .


----------



## jdb5949

Acebird said:


> Now that my usually hive is 5 to 7 boxes and 60 to 80 thousand bees it doesn't go so fast. I suppose I could get an observation hive and see what you want me to see but I don't see how that will help when the hive is 7 boxes high again.


For the newby beeks out there; you can quickly inspect the brood chamber for brood in a large hive by inspecting only the brood chamber. Open the box where you expect to find brood.

You avoid killing the queen by taking out the outside comb first. This gives you space to move the others apart before lifting up. This avoids rolling bees and risking queens.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> I keep hearing how little time it takes to go into a hive yet I have never been able to do it in these record times except when I got my first nuc that was 5 frames in a 10 deep box. Now that my usually hive is 5 to 7 boxes and 60 to 80 thousand bees it doesn't go so fast. I suppose I could get an observation hive and see what you want me to see but I don't see how that will help when the hive is 7 boxes high again.


It's a matter of knowing what needs looking at and what doesn't. You don't have to look at both sides of each and every one of your 70 combs to determine whether you have a queen or not and whether she is laying well or not. You should be able to pop the top and inner cover, take off three boxes of honey, and get right down to where the brood nest is. You don't have to take every comb out of the box that you suspect might house the brood, only one or two to allow the easy manipulation of the combs closer to the middle which is probably where the brood combs are.

Do you take one frame at a time from each box because of your back? Is that part of the problem? That taking a full box of honey or honey and brood off of a hive at a time is hard on your back? You had a back injury a number of years ago which limits your abilities, didn't you? Doesn't it?

I had a visitor a cpl days ago. He has 5 hives and doesn't see how I can manage 500 mostly by myself, since it takes him hours and hours to go through his 5 hives. I didn't get out of him what he does that takes that long. He was too busy asking me questions. But I suspect he is looking at too much, things that I don't pay a lot of attention to when I work bees. The difference between a newbee and and olddrone.


----------



## sqkcrk

Lauri said:


> This thread, already has had 2342 views You have to admit, Beesource wouldn't be the same without Brian


Trudat, Lauri. I always keep in mind that I have more of an opportunity to learn something from my mistakes than I do from my successes. Brian needs to take advantage of his opportunities. imo


----------



## Specialkayme

Acebird said:


> I keep hearing how little time it takes to go into a hive yet I have never been able to do it in these record times except when I got my first nuc that was 5 frames in a 10 deep box.


The more you get in the hive, the better you are at being able to realize what you need to look for and what you don't. You don't need to find the queen every time you open the hive. You can check the outter two frames to see what they have (food usually), then spot check a few frames moving inward until you get to where the queen has been laying most reciently. First few times, it takes a while to get there quickly. After a while, you can get there in 30 seconds. When you are in the heart of the broodnest, check for eggs, check for diseases (brood pattern, EFB, AFB, chalkbrood, sacbrood). Spend a little time checking their food reserves (but you usually get a good feel lifting the supers off). Then close it up. All the while checking for things that are out of the ordinary (DWV infected bees, high amount of SHB, undrawn foundation, excessive brood comb, overly defensive bees, you get the idea). 

Usually, you can do this in 1 or 2 min. Longer usually starts to disrupt the bees, and isn't really a good idea (in my opinion), if it can be avoided. Sometimes it has to be longer (shook swarms, making nucs, marking queens, destroying queen cells, varroa tests). But that should be once or twice a season (hopefully), and even then only 15 or 20 min per hive.

If you are sitting there being overly cautious in an attempt to avoid being stung, you'll get stung more often. If you are attempting to smash every SHB you can find, you'll never get them all (and probably make a small dent in the overall issue). If you are worried about crushing the queen, you don't have enough experience. I haven't killed a queen in over 5 years simply by opening the hive. Twice in the past 8 years I've had a queen go air borne on me. Once she returned. Once she accidentally met the heel side of my boot, up close and personally. But if they went airborne, they probably were close to swarming anyway. One queen loss in 5 years, while managing between 10 and 60 hives (depending on the year) each year, while doing about a dozen inspections per hive per year, adds up to a 0.05% chance of killing the queen. I'll take those odds and open up the hive, even in October. 

First few years may be worse. Maybe a 1% chance. Still not bad odds. Especially when you consider the experience you're gaining. 

I'd highly recommend that you go through a few hives with someone who is very experienced. You'll pick up a few things. Everyone does.


----------



## Acebird

Oldtimer said:


> Therein the problem in this case. Acebird has done just enough intervention to kill the hive / hives.
> 
> He put equipment on the hive that could have been infested with hive beetles / wax moths, didn't take the time to check for that first.


No it is worse than that I new the equipment was infested with one or the other before I put it on the hive and maybe misunderstood the advice I got that the bees of a strong hive would clean it up. I can assure you that will never happen again.

Yes, I did the intervention that killed my hives. Live and learn.

OT the plan was to harvest honey. It took me two hours to get the bees off the frames of three boxes and sweep as many beetles off as I could. And then put those frames one by one into empty boxes so I could take them away without hundreds of bees in them. After see the beetles I knew I had to get them in the freezer. That meant more lifting and the back had already had it. I lifted one more box to make sure the bees had honey and looked into the next box from the top. It had honey too. There are two more boxes below that.



> I would LOVE to take you out making nucs with me,


That is a great offer but you would have to do all the lifting and there is no way I can pick up a deep if it is loaded with honey. Is that something another beekeeper is going to want to do for my benefit? I wouldn't even ask for such a thing.



> it is clear he finds opening the hive difficult and intimidating and has therefore opted for "non intervention".


In the beginning I agree, today I don't. The sting I took Sunday can't even be found today and the arthritis in my hand that got stung is far better then the one that didn't. I am not about to go for sting therapy but I don't have the fear I use to have when I first started.


----------



## odfrank

Specialkayme said:


> That's how you get to learn more about what you are talking about, rather than talk more than you know about.


This is the most brilliant quote about Acebird I have read.


----------



## Barry Digman

Oldtimer said:


> I followed Aces beekeeping journey starting with his posts from before he had bees. reading it, it is clear he finds opening the hive difficult and intimidating and has therefore opted for "non intervention". But clearly it is not working for him.


I can identify with being hesitant about opening a hive. It took me several seasons before I was truly comfortable opening them up and manipulating stuff. For those who are a little shy, my suggestion is to just keep at it a little at a time. It just takes some folks longer to reach a point where the worry about getting stung, killing a queen, breaking something, etc. passes and they're able to focus on the task at hand. 

Take your time. (Just not two hours on one hive...  )


----------



## crofter

Acebird said:


> Amazing Frank, the weight scale and the activity at the entrance gave me the idea that this hive was very healthy until I pulled some supers. Now you are saying you wouldn't go in this late in the season so isn't that a mixed message?
> 
> I keep hearing how little time it takes to go into a hive yet I have never been able to do it in these record times except when I got my first nuc that was 5 frames in a 10 deep box. Now that my usually hive is 5 to 7 boxes and 60 to 80 thousand bees it doesn't go so fast. I suppose I could get an observation hive and see what you want me to see but I don't see how that will help when the hive is 7 boxes high again.


What I said was "I am always concerned about killing a queen this late in the season and I tend to stay out of the hive unless there is something I really need to see. The weight scale tells me most of what I need to know now." If the hive is light the queen will likely still be in top box. I separate the frames a bit and carefully pull a central one up enough to verify healthy brood. The queen is there so all they need is feeding. If you have been doing ongoing mite counts or drone examination you should know the mite condition. Earlier in the season when they are still raising a lot of drone in odd places, I like to tilt a box back to see what kind of a mess is on the bottoms of frames before I start yanking them out. You can rake it off and it is a perfect source of a mite count or there might be queen cells you want to save as you pull frames out. If you check a few key items every week you dont get caught by near as many surprises. Discover them too late and even heroic efforts wont save them then. 

I just cannot see how looking the other way can possibly be a better way of keeping bees alive than monitoring their conditiion. If you feel you do not want to sacrifice the time it takes to do them justice then you might consider another line of endeavor. If it is not fun anymore the way you have been trying maybe you should embrace a new approach.


----------



## beepro

Acebird said:


> Yes, I did the intervention that killed my hives. Live and learn.
> 
> That is a great offer but you would have to do all the lifting and there is no way I can pick up a deep if it is loaded with honey. Is that something another beekeeper is going to want to do for my benefit? I wouldn't even ask for such a thing.
> 
> In the beginning I agree, today I don't. The sting I took Sunday can't even be found today and the arthritis in my hand that got stung is far better then the one that didn't. I am not about to go for sting therapy but I don't have the fear I use to have when I first started.



I think Ace had learned a lot from our help over the years here. He got over his fear of handling the hives when he wanted some honey. This shows that he is an improved person and can be improve more as his beekeeping skills progressed. Who can say they have never made a mistake in beekeeping, huh. I still kill my queens but had made enough nucs to replace them just in case. This will eliminate the fear of rolling any queen on a hive inspection. One hive will not do because I don't want to continue buying expensive mutt queens anymore. Because of him we have our entertainment here otherwise our beekeeping life would be so boring. Don't you thing so? Like the bees, diversity in the hive keep things interesting and moving, right. Ace, good or bad I learn from you too. Like the beekeeper in AZ who cannot lift her heavy honey boxes, she use extra hives to put her honey frames in there. No need to lift that heavy honey box, alright. Been thinking about that 2x5 frame medium nucs for honey supers.


----------



## sqkcrk

Brian, I think you need a Hive Lifter. It might help you work your hive and take strain off of your back.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

Acebird said:


> I keep hearing how little time it takes to go into a hive yet I have never been able to do it in these record times except when I got my first nuc that was 5 frames in a 10 deep box. Now that my usually hive is 5 to 7 boxes and 60 to 80 thousand bees it doesn't go so fast.


This has been a great instructional thread.

My advice Brian, for what it's worth, is to zero in on the above. You apparently are willing and able to "go into" a nuc and do not consider that intervention. Adopt the same approach with your mature colonies. Take the advice given by others and work on very non-intrusive and quick methods of getting into the brood nest to observe what is going on. That will open up a whole new world for you. If you have a colony as strong as the one described above there is so much more long term potential if you know what is going on in the hive and stay ahead of the game.


----------



## dsegrest

The Mecklenburg County Bee Assn. (like most bee clubs) has a bee-school every year. We were assigned mentors to help us get started. You don't really learn that much sitting in a chair. My mentor is still helping me and her mentor helps us both. I am a mentor now and I still run to other people in the club. One guy is a part-time professional with probably over 1000 hives. He is always ready to offer hands on help. 

Join your bee club!!!


----------



## cg3

Can you imagine what those meetings would be like?


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> I am now praying for a heavy frost.


A heavy frost will not help. 

The shb's survived the deep cold of last winter...


----------



## Acebird

crofter said:


> I just cannot see how looking the other way can possibly be a better way of keeping bees alive than monitoring their conditiion.


Frank, I hope I never said this. If Rader can find a post that even suggest this I will apologize to the forum.




> If you feel you do not want to sacrifice the time it takes to do them justice then you might consider another line of endeavor.


I do not have the time when conditions are favorable but I am not giving up no matter what happens to this hive.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> I just cannot see how looking the other way can possibly be a better way of keeping bees alive than monitoring their conditiion.



Acebird said:


> Frank, I hope I never said this. If Rader can find a post that even suggest this I will apologize to the forum.




How about this?


Acebird said:


> I am contented to be a lucky beehaver.


:gh:


... I really don't understand why Ace draws me into threads that I have not posted in previously ... :scratch:


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Brian, I think you need a Hive Lifter.


I think I do too and I am seriously thinking of building one. There is one problem though, the terrain is not conducive to getting anything into the hive unless it is in front of the entrance. The hive lifter should also help me from sweating like a stuck pig which blinds me from the sweat and steamed up glasses. Then I could harvest in the summer and not let the hive get so tall. All things to think about.


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> ... I really don't understand why Ace draws me into threads that I have not posted in previously ... :scratch:


Obviously it was a mistake asking for you help. This was the whole quote that clearly says not knowing is not better.



> *I wouldn't expect anyone to follow my lead on managing hives. *I am experimenting and have nothing to lose. I cannot find a queen and cannot see eggs. I am contented to be a lucky beehaver.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Obviously it was a mistake asking for you help. This was the whole quote that clearly says not knowing is not better.


Perhaps you will like the following one better ... 



As a response to a question of what "non-intervention" meant, Ace posted ...


Acebird said:


> For everyone else it means I avoid upsetting the interior of the hive if at all possible except in the spring time when some form of manipulation is necessary to avoid swarms.


----------



## snl

Acebird said:


> The hive lifter should also help me from sweating like a stuck pig which blinds me from the sweat and steamed up glasses.


Try a headband...........they work!


----------



## BeeCurious

I've never heard the phrase "sweating like a stuck pig"...


----------



## Lauri

I have a good hive lifter. He takes an extraordinary amount of feed though to keep him willing.










Hey, if you can mix protein patties you can make man sized cookies. I use the hand mixer though, not the 1/2" drill and paint paddle.

Now to get a glass of milk!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9uzDHh2N4E


----------



## mathesonequip

snl said:


> Try a headband...........they work!


let us not go there with mr. acebird again... please.


----------



## sqkcrk

BeeCurious said:


> I've never heard the phrase "sweating like a stuck pig"...


A mixed up metaphor? Squealing like a stuck pig and sweating like a pig morphed into sweating like a stuck pig.


----------



## FlowerPlanter

Lauri said:


> I have a good hive lifter. He takes an extraordinary amount of feed though to keep him willing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, if you can mix protein patties you can make man sized cookies. I use the hand mixer though, not the 1/2" drill and paint paddle.
> 
> Now to get a glass of milk!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9uzDHh2N4E


You need something lifted, I can be there in 30 hours keep them cookies warm.

I will bring my own milk:lpf:


----------



## sqkcrk

Lauri said:


> I have a good hive lifter. He takes an extraordinary amount of feed though to keep him willing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, if you can mix protein patties you can make man sized cookies. I use the hand mixer though, not the 1/2" drill and paint paddle.
> 
> Now to get a glass of milk!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9uzDHh2N4E


Once your hive lifter lifts a hive do you level it by sticking those cookies under each corner?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Perhaps Ace needs more _incentive _to do hive inspections. 

How about this .... Ace posts photos of a "real" hive inspection and in return _Lauri _sends him a couple of those _great _looking cookies! 

k:


----------



## Acebird

Lauri said:


> I have a good hive lifter. He takes an extraordinary amount of feed though to keep him willing.


All I would have to do is buy a box of chocolate but she is allergic to bee stings.


----------



## Acebird

I went in the hive again and took a quick look. I did not pull any frames but there did not appear to be any brood looking through the bottom of the frames. There is probably only a box and a half of honey on this hive by the weight of the boxes. The sky was overcast with rain in the forecast and it was over 60 degrees. With this many bees I can't imagine this hive is queenless but what do I know. I saw only one beetle on the inner cover and no evidence of slime. I am hoping the bees corralled them in the top boxes that I took away. I am not going in again. I see no point. I was surprised that these boxes were not interconnected like the supers of honey were.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/2014 Fall Hive/DSCF7203_zps686ba37d.jpg
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/2014 Fall Hive/DSCF7204_zps927a98e4.jpg
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/2014 Fall Hive/DSCF7205_zps82520a96.jpg
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/2014 Fall Hive/DSCF7206_zps04d01b13.jpg

Oh and one sting to the hand but this was the other one so my arthritis should be good next week.


----------



## mathesonequip

ok... you need to get used to pulling the frames to inspect. a top bee researcher showed me a couple of little things to make it a bit easier to get stuck frames loose. first use your hive tool to loosen both ends of the second frame in, work down with the flat end between adjacent end bars. then work it back and forth a little with the right angle end. then pry up back and forth with the tool to the inside of the end bar [easier on the frame], pry against the outer frame . you will have a lower angle on the tool [compared to prying on the box] so more force is up rather than sidewards [also easier on the box], if you start with the outer frame as most do it is a bit harder. no big thing but it makes it easier. set this frame or the outer one aside till you are done. also before lifting a frame be sure to loosen the box you are on from the box bellow. checking the frames every 3 weeks or so is minimal intervention. you do not need to check too many to see what is happening. you photos look like stuff is not stuck together too bad. not much point at looking at honey suppers, check the edges of the brood area, the queen will move to the next frame a lot of the time as you go so a low chance of hurting her.


----------



## mathesonequip

while typing the last post a temporary cover blew of my end hive. I put a tello-cover on, came in and it blew off. went back out and scrounged a cement block. I am about 100 miles north west of acebird. the wind blows hard here I am north of the famous snow belt but I get the same crazy wind.


----------



## Specialkayme

Acebird said:


> I did not pull any frames but there did not appear to be any brood looking through the bottom of the frames.
> 
> . . .
> 
> With this many bees I can't imagine this hive is queenless but what do I know.
> 
> . . .
> 
> I am not going in again. I see no point.


So you have no idea if they have brood, you have no idea if they are queenless, and you can't be sure about disease or pests . . . but you see no point in opening the hive again?

The point of opening the hive is to determine these things. Not to look at the top bars, say "Who know's what's in there . . . " and close it back up. You've disturbed the bees, without gaining any valuable information other than knowing some are still alive. 

Either open it up, check frames, get a good feel on how the colony is, or don't open it at all (and live with the consequences of not being able to help them in the event they fail).


----------



## Acebird

I had no time. It is down pouring right now and the wind just blew over one of my wife's potted trees.
I normally go between the two last frames and pry them apart. The last frame has the greatest space to move. The only issue I have is if there is so many bees between the frames I feel as though I will squish them. Any hive I have is weighted down with a brick or a broken slab of concrete. Of course if they predict a hurricane it will have a 5 gallon pail.:thumbsup:


----------



## crofter

I have to agree with post #127; that is awefully sparse looking population and the frames are scary clean. There certainly would be next to zero queen risk in pulling apart those frames. They sure dont look like what I am sending mine into winter with. Hive weight?


----------



## Acebird

Specialkayme said:


> Either open it up, check frames, get a good feel on how the colony is, or don't open it at all (and live with the consequences of not being able to help them in the event they fail).


The last two days this hive was very active at the entrance. I wanted to know if the hive was being robbed. I now know it is not. I am also 99% confident that the hive is not slimmed up with hive beetles. Totally different look then what I saw a few days ago. If I saw brood I still would not know if there was a queen. I did not see queen cells or queen cups on the bottom of the frames so the likely hood is this hive didn't swarm this season. I am happy I went into the hive, you don't have to be.

What help would you give a single queenless hive in Upstate NY on 10-8?


----------



## Acebird

crofter said:


> that is awefully sparse looking population and the frames are scary clean.


It is tough to take a photo the instant you pull a box off by yourself but what do you think the clean frames mean?


----------



## Specialkayme

Acebird said:


> What help would you give a single queenless hive in Upstate NY on 10-8?


So why check at all?

Say you open it up, find out they are queenless, but can't do anything to help them. "Oh well, that's life . . . " Say you open it up, find frames slimed by beetles . . . but you "had no time" to check the frames, so looks like you close it up and hope for the best. 

Your "inspection" did no benefit, other than make you feel better.


----------



## crofter

If no queen you might be able to get another. If not and decide it is a gonner then it is easier to clean up and stack now than as soggy stinking dead out in the spring. It appears that hive may never have been fully populated with enough bees. Too much space to defend. If a hive is well populated you dont have to be quick with the camera to take their picture after you pull hive bodies apart. 

You are the one with the problem but you seem to denigrate the advice of the successful and go to great lengths to defend your position. That is usually not the most successful way to pick up pointers.


----------



## Lauri

If you _look _and you are indeed queenless, I will send you a queen. I have several in the mating nucs getting ready to overwinter. I have a few late mated ones that have not started to brood down yet..daughters of Velberts Pol-Line/Russian/VSH hybrids crossed with my VSH Carnie hybrids. Super mutts  Mated late August/Early Sept.

It might be tricky getting them to accept her this late-days are getting short. But you never know, it might work. 

PM me if you need her Brian.


----------



## sqkcrk

Lauri said:


> If you _look _and you are indeed queenless, I will send you a queen. I have several in the mating nucs getting ready to overwinter. I have a few late mated ones that have not started to brood down yet..daughters of Velberts Pol-Line/russian/VSH hybrids crossed with my VSH Carnie hybrids. Super muts  Mated late August/Early Sept.
> PM me if you need her Brian.


Hey, Lauri, I have a queenless colony. Send me your queen. I'll send you one back after Lynn Barton grows some daughters off of her next Spring. Shoot, I'll send you two and give Brian one.


----------



## mathesonequip

acebird..if you look down the hole after you pull a couple of frames you will not see squished bees. try it.


----------



## Acebird

Specialkayme said:


> So why check at all?


Because if I saw it was a hopeless case being robbed or slimmed up I would have planned on removing the honey and calling it quits instead of letting it go through winter.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Because if I saw it was a hopeless case being robbed or slimmed up I would have planned on removing the honey and calling it quits instead of letting it go through winter.


:thumbsup:


----------



## GLOCK

Ok ACE not being mean but for what purpose do you have bee's for?
I was just wondering


----------



## mathesonequip

:applause:


sqkcrk said:


> Hey, Lauri, I have a queenless colony. Send me your queen. I'll send you one back after Lynn Barton grows some daughters off of her next Spring. Shoot, I'll send you two and give Brian one.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Because if I saw it was a hopeless case being robbed or slimmed up I would have planned on removing the honey and [HIGHLIGHT]calling it quits[/HIGHLIGHT] instead of letting it go through winter.


Uh-Oh!  "_*Quits*_"!! Say its not so ... :lpf:



Acebird said:


> People get discouraged and quit because they are quitters they lack determination and I am not just talking about beekeeping.



:gh:



... remember, Ace, _*you *_drew me into this thread ...


----------



## Acebird

GLOCK said:


> Ok ACE not being mean but for what purpose do you have bee's for?
> I was just wondering


You may not believe it but it has made a tremendous difference to the pollination of the gardens and fruit trees. My wife puts two spoons full of honey in the bread she makes twice a week. This year we bought a jar of honey because we used last years harvest for splits. We don't eat store bought bread. If there is an abundance of honey like this year there will be mead in the future. We very rarely miss wine thirty every day.

I don't have and never will have a desire to make income from bees.


----------



## Specialkayme

Acebird said:


> Because if I saw it was a hopeless case being robbed or slimmed up I would have planned on removing the honey and calling it quits instead of letting it go through winter.


I wouldn't feel comfortable saying they aren't being robbed and you don't have SHB or a brood disease without pulling a frame or two. But to each their own.


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> What help would you give a single queenless hive in Upstate NY on 10-8?


I would condense the bees into a box or two and combine them with a queenright colony that could use the bees. I did my combining about six weeks ago.

If the bees are demoralized (lethargic and not chasing the hive beetles) I would possibly treat them to a bucket of soapy water as opposed to introducing a lot of shb's into another colony...


----------



## Lauri

Too bad it IS so late. An installed capped queen cell, close to emerging can be an extremely easy fix and produce _Miracles_ in a demoralized, laying worker or otherwise worthless hive.

In fact one of the reasons I went ahead and placed more late queen cells than I planned, was to recify a few laying worker nucs. Once the queen started laying and the comb was laid up well and repared, I farmed out some of the queens and had _usable_ frames to distribute, instead of nasty drone filled mess. Even as late as September, it worked like a charm and several of those nucs are overwintering, surprisingly. There's nothing like a newly mated queen that's emerged in it's colony to get it to grab a gear & get it back on track.


----------



## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> I would condense the bees into a box or two and combine them with a queenright colony that could use the bees. I did my combining about six weeks ago.
> 
> If the bees are demoralized (lethargic and not chasing the hive beetles) I would possibly treat them to a bucket of soapy water as opposed to introducing a lot of shb's into another colony...


Great Idea beecurious, bring your hive over.


----------



## Acebird

Lauri said:


> There's nothing like a newly mated queen that's emerged in it's colony to get it to grab a gear & get it back on track.


I don't know how it goes in Washington, but in New England it matters not what happened in last season, it matters what happens in the new season. Around here the season starts in February or March. From there the hive will be a race to keep up or one you piddle over all year long. In October you decide whether you want to keep it or just through money at it. I don't think the money makes the difference.


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> I don't know how it goes in Washington, but in New England it matters not what happened in last season, it matters what happens in the new season.


Is New York now part of New England? 

I don't know how it goes in Utica, but what I did in 2013 certainly mattered in 2014. It's absurd to suggest otherwise.


----------



## beepro

Ace, maybe to start one hive and 2 queens system next year. You still have 1 hive but 2 queens to fuse your
honey production. Now you have to worry about swarming and over population in your hive.
Yes, those after the solstice newly mated queen sure outlay the older Spring queens. They don't care just lay
when there is an empty cell they can find to increase the population before going into the winter. They know that
the Fall is here already.


----------



## Specialkayme

beepro said:


> Ace, maybe to start one hive and 2 queens system next year.


Horrible idea. Ace has a hard time doing basic inspections, identifying pests, and keeping the hive alive. He should focus on increasing those first. Walk before running.


----------



## DanielD

Ace, I get a kick out of how you put up with these guys.


----------



## sqkcrk

What about the rest of us who invest so much in Acebird? Pearls before swine comes to mind. Sorry, Brian. Just the way my brain works.


----------



## Acebird

DanielD said:


> Ace, I get a kick out of how you put up with these guys.


Well Daniel, even the ones that despise me and don't like what I do or how I do it help me. It can be something not related to the thread. Something as simple as pumping the inner cover up and down. After all the worst anyone can do to me is verbal abuse. I have a pretty good deaf ear for that. I think most mean well they just get frustrated with me.


----------



## wildbranch2007

BeeCurious said:


> Is New York now part of New England?


I think it's only fair that the Acebird affect be shared by a larger geographical area.


----------



## mathesonequip

Acebird said:


> I think most mean well they just get frustrated with me.


amen


----------



## sqkcrk

"The Acebird Effect"? I hope I don't get labeled w/ anything like that. What's the definition?


----------



## Lauri

sqkcrk said:


> What's the definition?


It's like the Joe Biden effect. Both horrifying and entertaining.

''Just discharge a shotgun round into the air..."

I wonder what kind of beekeeper Ol' Joe would make?


----------



## sqkcrk

I'd love to see that.


----------



## Lauri

I can see it now
Joe Biden's Beekeeping tips: 'Shootin' from the hip'

Which by the way, its a lot better than Dick Cheney's instructional video :lookout:


----------



## DanielD

sqkcrk said:


> What about the rest of us who invest so much in Acebird? Pearls before swine comes to mind. Sorry, Brian. Just the way my brain works.


Sure. I appreciate your investment in him, but it's a bit like helping an old lady across the street using a baseball bat.


----------



## DanielD

Acebird said:


> Well Daniel, even the ones that despise me and don't like what I do or how I do it help me. It can be something not related to the thread. Something as simple as pumping the inner cover up and down. After all the worst anyone can do to me is verbal abuse. I have a pretty good deaf ear for that. I think most mean well they just get frustrated with me.


I am sure you are helped here like all of us. 

I noticed your deaf ear. That's part of what I get a kick out of. You seem to get plenty of practice.


----------



## DanielD

Lauri said:


> Both horrifying and entertaining.


Sorry Ace, Joe has you beat by a long way.


----------



## Lburou

My-smokepole said:


> As soon as I see them the traps go in. A club member made up a interesting trap. Basically a fram with a saw cut on most of the top with Plastic sides. He would pull it and freeze them.


I'd like to see a picture of that please


----------



## beepro

Specialkayme said:


> Horrible idea. Ace has a hard time doing basic inspections, identifying pests, and keeping the hive alive. He should focus on increasing those first. Walk before running.


Yeah, I just thought with more bees he doesn't has to inspect or keep up with the hive population because there will be more bees. Since he doesn't like
to put them in the nucs then let them swarm. At least he will have more bees coming with the 2 queens laying at the same time too.


----------



## sqkcrk

DanielD said:


> Sure. I appreciate your investment in him, but it's a bit like helping an old lady across the street using a baseball bat.


What are we supposed to do if she doesn't want to go across the street?


----------



## Acebird

beepro said:


> At least he will have more bees coming with the 2 queens laying at the same time too.


More bees and too many hives was part of my problem this year. I had two friends that wanted bees so I split more than I should have. One wanted the bees but didn't want to take care of them. That turned out to be a disaster because if I didn't have time for that hive in my apiary I surely didn't have time for it a distance away. I ended up bringing that equipment back in bad shape. It was infected with something and I didn't know what. Now I think it was hive beetles. I think this hive compounded with other mistakes I made took out three other hives I had in my apiary. The one I have now was the strongest one and maybe it survived. We will see. The other friend suffered last year not getting bees because of a shipping disaster. He got a package from the company that was involved in the shipping disaster so he didn't need the hive I split for him. That is how I ended up with more hives then I wanted. And now I have maybe one left. Feast or famine... When you are dealing with a small number of hives the risk of loosing them all is much greater. That is just the way it is.


----------



## DanielD

sqkcrk said:


> What are we supposed to do if she doesn't want to go across the street?


Hmm........ That creates a few questions. Does the lady really need to cross the street? Is it the right street? Will she just go back where she was if you help her across? Can she handle being on the other side of the street? Will she beat you with her purse if you help? Apply them to Ace as you see fit. 

I guess if you are sure she really needed to be on the other side of the street, you need to pick her up and carry her. How much distance between Utica and Brasher Falls?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> I had two friends that wanted bees so I split more than I should have. One wanted the bees but didn't want to take care of them. That turned out to be a disaster because if I didn't have time for that hive in my apiary I surely didn't have time for it a distance away.


So your friend got one of your splits, and then adopted your "_non-intervention beekeeping_" technique and it turned out to be a disaster. 

:kn: :scratch: :kn: 

In your own words!


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> So your friend got one of your splits, and then adopted your "_non-intervention beekeeping_" technique and it turned out to be a disaster.
> 
> :kn: :scratch: :kn:
> 
> In your own words!


Your words are never my words.

There are many cases where a beekeeper puts hives on someone else's property. I had convinced myself it might work because it was close to my primary work. My primary work is why I didn't have the time. It got crazy this summer.


----------



## sqkcrk

DanielD said:


> Hmm........ That creates a few questions. Does the lady really need to cross the street? Is it the right street? Will she just go back where she was if you help her across? Can she handle being on the other side of the street? Will she beat you with her purse if you help? Apply them to Ace as you see fit.
> 
> I guess if you are sure she really needed to be on the other side of the street, you need to pick her up and carry her. How much distance between Utica and Brasher Falls?


I was being sarcastic, Daniel. Maybe you were too.

150 miles. There are other beekeepers much closer. Some who would gladly come to Brian's aid should he need and want it.


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> I had two friends that wanted bees so I split more than I should have.


Are you referring to the glory days of "Crazy Splits"? 




> One wanted the bees but didn't want to take care of them.


Really? Were the rigors of Non-intervention beekeeping too much to manage?


----------



## D Coates

This post is for those attempting to lend assistance. This is the definition of an exercise in futility. 

He's beached himself on the holier than thou reef of "Practicing non-intervention beekeeping" In seas of life some people are the hulks stuck fast on the reefs. These moldering hulks are there to warn you of where obstacles to be avoided are, nothing more. Sometimes though there's a self important little captain still occupying said hulk. Ironically, as you sail by he'll give you "advice" on how to correctly captain your ship, with no regard of his own visibly obvious ignorance. If he asks for advice, he doesn't really want it and won't learn from it. Say nothing but wave politely as you sail on by. 

I'm waving and sailing on by....


----------



## squarepeg

i've stayed out of this one on purpose, but there is a consideration here that may be in play.

ace, you have mentioned not being able to see eggs or find the queen, and you have mentioned having problems with your eyesight and wearing glasses.

please forgive me if i'm being too nosey, and you don't have to answer, but is your vision subnormal for some reason?

seeing an egg requires pretty much close to 20/20 vision even in perfect lighting. being able to see eggs and other details during inspections is huge. it's not always necessary to find the queen if you can see eggs, and a marked queen is infinitely easier to see than an unmarked one.

i don't see why someone with less than 20/20 could not enjoy beekeeping, but this would be an instance where belonging to a club and swapping favors with other beeks who would be willing to help with inspections could be of benefit.


----------



## jwcarlson

I'm still a bit confused as to why it is so difficult to pry a frame out of a box when you're going through the time and effort to take pictures, upload them to your computer, then upload them to the website. How about instead of taking five pictures of the tops of frames you take one picture of a brood frame and use the time you saved by NOT taking four more pictures, uploading them, etc? Serious question. Even if you can't see the eggs or young larva yourself, the camera you are using seems to be pretty good quality... you could take some close ups and look at them on your computer or post here for some others to help "look".

This is only my first year, and I've got an almost two year old, a pregnant wife, a job frequently requiring 20-30 hour work days, and I tore out 1200 sq feet feed of carpet and put down new flooring this summer too... There's a million excuses to "slack off"... there always are. I just can't wrap my head around looking at top bars when it's so simple to pop a frame or two out... especially when you're already in that deep.

I understand the intimidation or trepidation with opening up a hive. Myself I haven't really experienced it, but my brother still is not particularly comfortable when the hive is opened up. And it sounds like you don't have too much trouble with your reaction to stings.


----------



## DanielD

sqkcrk said:


> I was being sarcastic, Daniel. Maybe you were too.


----------



## sqkcrk

D Coates said:


> This post is for those attempting to lend assistance. This is the definition of an exercise in futility.
> 
> He's beached himself on the holier than thou reef of "Practicing non-intervention beekeeping" In seas of life some people are the hulks stuck fast on the reefs. These moldering hulks are there to warn you of where obstacles to be avoided are, nothing more. Sometimes though there's a self important little captain still occupying said hulk. Ironically, as you sail by he'll give you "advice" on how to correctly captain your ship, with no regard of his own visibly obvious ignorance. If he asks for advice, he doesn't really want it and won't learn from it. Say nothing but wave politely as you sail on by.
> 
> I'm waving and sailing on by....


:thumbsup:


----------



## Acebird

squarepeg said:


> seeing an egg requires pretty much close to 20/20 vision even in perfect lighting.


 One eye is 20/30 and the other is 20/40 my prescription is not as powerful as it should be because I want glass lenses for longevity. If I get poly carbonate they will be scratched in two weeks. I can't find anyone that will make my prescription in glass. The lenses are varialense so there is only about 1/8 of the lens in focus and if it gets covered in a bead of sweat I can barely see enough to walk. In the heat of summer it is impossible for me to work a hive. My glasses will steam up.



> you could take some close ups and look at them on your computer or post here for some others to help "look".


Yes, that is possible which means every intervention would mean another intervention. It is also not that easy unless you have someone else with clean hands taking the photos. I am not going to risk my wife getting stung while I smash bees. I can imagine doing a split in the spring time. Pull the hive all apart, number the frames, take photos, upload them to beesource. Then all the opinions on which frames I should use for the split, go back in and do the split. Report back to beesource every week with photos to get more opinions on their progress. Does anyone think that would be fun?

I made it three years without any serious problems. In the future I will have to see if I can stretch it to four or five if I don't make any serious mistakes like I did this year. I keep saying this to myself, hopefully I won't be as busy next year as I was this year. And maybe I can get into the hives more often and do it your way.


----------



## sqkcrk

Longevity? Did you mean distance? I'm sure you want glasses that last a long time too, but I don't think that was what you meant. Or was it?


----------



## dsegrest

Sorry, I have missed this wonderful thread for a couple of days. I don't have time to go through the last 4 pages. Is Acebird's hive still alive. This is better than "All My Children".


----------



## Specialkayme

jwcarlson said:


> . . . a job frequently requiring 20-30 hour work days . . .


I hate it when a job requires me to break the laws of physics . . . 

Kidding. Obviously. Couldn't help myself.


----------



## Danpa14

Acebird said:


> One eye is 20/30 and the other is 20/40 my prescription is not as powerful as it should be because I want glass lenses for longevity. If I get poly carbonate they will be scratched in two weeks. I can't find anyone that will make my prescription in glass. The lenses are varialense so there is only about 1/8 of the lens in focus and if it gets covered in a bead of sweat I can barely see enough to walk. In the heat of summer it is impossible for me to work a hive. My glasses will steam up.
> 
> As a 30 year owner of an optometry practice I would suggest standard plastic unless you have over a plus or minus 3.00 diopter Rx power. Thinner materials are worth paying for over 3.00. All lens I sell are replaced for scratches for 2 years. The best warranty is unlimited replacement for 2 years, so absolutely no reason to put up with scratch's or heavy glass. Most practices have a 2 year warranty, if not go elsewhere. Premium progressives have a much wider viewing zone. They are worth paying for. Hope this helps.


----------



## clyderoad

there is five pounds of excuses in a three pound bag for the failure of this hive.
Nothing will change until this beekeeper owns up to his naive views of beekeeping.

DCoates is correct- this is "an exercise in futility".
I'll wave and sail on by now too.


----------



## beepro

Ace, I like your non-intervention method of beekeeping. Three years is a lot of waiting for some honey, finally. Whatever you do make sure they have a good laying queen. Having some extra nucs on the side will keep the production hive going. Next time make sure you give your freinds a small 5 frame nuc hive. And don't take it back without knowing what disease it has. I'm sure you are learning just like us.
If you time it well then you will have many small nucs but only a few production hives for some honey. Use the nucs to fuel your production hives. And sell off your nucs to your friends or on CL will do. There is no need to worry about having too many bees there. Also consider catching a swarm or 2 to give this dwindling hive a boost too.
Eye glasses, if you want the long term durability then consider the plastic lens with scratch resistance. I have 2 pairs just in case. But the optometrist said he will replace them for free should they ever got scratched. So I believe they work for me better than the glass lens.
As for going into the hives, the more you do it the faster you will overcome your fear of a hive inspection. Make sure to make it curious enough so that you want to know what's going on inside the hive. If not just leave them alone to build up. 
I know you love your wife and not want her to get hurt. The reality is when she inspect the hive they will try to sting her. Unless she is allergic, wearing a full suit to protect her will do.
Build some interest in her to do beekeeping. Then you don't have to worry about your foggy eyeglasses during the summer inspection and her getting sting by the bees. She will be happy to do beekeeping with you without minding the occasional bee sting or 2. Also, consider raising the gentle honey bees for an easy hive inspection. I'm sure you will find some
gentle bees to keep.


----------



## Acebird

Danpa14 said:


> The best warranty is unlimited replacement for 2 years, so absolutely no reason to put up with scratch's or heavy glass. Most practices have a 2 year warranty, if not go elsewhere.


Both my wife and I have bad vision from a young age. So we have heard the warranty quoted many times. Plastic with all the fancy coatings will not last a month because of what we do. Glass last two to four years if I am careful to always wear face shield. No company is going to give you new lenses every month and I don't have the time to deal with the exchange. Neither of us can be without lenses so you have to buy another set of frames to do the exchange. With 50 years of experience wearing corrective lenses I have tried everything and glass wins hands down. Any quality optic device will have a glass lens not a plastic one.

Beepro, my wife is a much prettier Dee Lusby. Absolutely fearless, is allergic, will not get an epee pen and will not go to the hospital if she gets stung until she drops and then I would be able to drag her there. I do not want to lose her. Trust me my bees are gentle or they would be toast in a heart beat. I wouldn't even consider requeening a hot hive.


----------



## Acebird

clyderoad said:


> Nothing will change until this beekeeper owns up to his naive views of beekeeping.


Right you are clyde. See you both next year, now go play with your own bees.


----------



## cg3

Acebird said:


> my bees are _gentile_ or they would be toast in a heart beat. I wouldn't even consider requeening a hot hive.


Not even if they were Jewish?


----------



## Acebird

cg3 said:


> Not even if they were Jewish?


:scratch:There must be some humor in this remark but it is over my head.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Its a pun on your SPELLING, Ace. :lpf:

Look at the word cg3 _italicized_.


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> my wife is a much prettier Dee Lusby.





Beauty is in the eye of the bee holder.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Both my wife and I have bad vision from a young age. So we have heard the warranty quoted many times. Plastic with all the fancy coatings will not last a month because of what we do. Glass last two to four years if I am careful to always wear face shield. No company is going to give you new lenses every month and I don't have the time to deal with the exchange. Neither of us can be without lenses so you have to buy another set of frames to do the exchange. With 50 years of experience wearing corrective lenses I have tried everything and glass wins hands down. Any quality optic device will have a glass lens not a plastic one.
> 
> Beepro, my wife is a much prettier Dee Lusby. Absolutely fearless, is allergic, will not get an epee pen and will not go to the hospital if she gets stung until she drops and then I would be able to drag her there. I do not want to lose her. Trust me my bees are gentile or they would be toast in a heart beat. I wouldn't even consider requeening a hot hive.


And you want to keep only one hive, right? If I remember correctly what you have written in the past. And you have had as many as three too, right? You live in an urban environment where hives regularly casting off swarms would mean trouble for you. Something people here may not know or understand. Brian lives in Utica, not in the suburbs or in the country. Not exactly downtown, but close enough.

So there are a number of factors which go into Brian's situation, besides his limited physical capabilities due to his bad back and his poor eyesight. I get frustrated w/ Brian from time to time, but I commend his persistence. He seems to want to have bees in his chicken run/back yard. So we keep on keeping on w/ this never ending story of one man and his one beehive. 

Adds a certain spice to life, don't ya think? Or is that something else? :gh:


----------



## cg3

sqkcrk said:


> So we keep on keeping on w/ this never ending story of one man and his one beehive.


And thousand excuses...


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> And you have had as many as three too, right?


Three going through winter gives me a better chance that one will be alive come spring.


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> Three going through winter gives me a better chance that one will be alive come spring.


With fewer resources required, it's easier to have several nucs prepared for winter than full sized hives. 

I have been overwintering double 5-frame mediums for several years now...


----------



## Colino

Wow! Afraid to inspect his hive, hasn't had a honey crop in 3 years? I raised a good honey crop from 2 packages my first year because I listened to the guys who are experienced beekeepers. Obviously this is someone who's interested in increasing his post count, so I will ignore his posts in the future.
Colino


----------



## sqkcrk

BeeCurious said:


> With fewer resources required, it's easier to have several nucs prepared for winter than full sized hives.
> 
> I have been overwintering double 5-frame mediums for several years now...


This is not really something I would expect Brian to try. Would you?


----------



## BeeCurious

sqkcrk said:


> This is not really something I would expect Brian to try. Would you?


Why not? 

Inspections would be much easier. 

The boxes are much lighter. 

The bee populations less intimidating. 

Having nuc equipment increases the possibilities (and fun) in my opinion.


----------



## sqkcrk

Well, knowing Brian, primarily through how he presents himself in beesource, I just don't see him doing what you suggest. Your suggestions are good ones, but this is Brian.


----------



## Richard Cryberg

I have corrected vision in one eye of 20/40. I have absolutely no problem seeing eggs with that eye. I would estimate you should be perfectly capable of seeing eggs corrected to 20/80 or worse. I suggest anyone who can not see eggs should never be allowed to drive a car after dusk or before full morning light as they are a hazard to their fellow man on the road.

I took off three supers of honey yesterday by brushing the bees off the frames simply to see how long it takes. I was done in less than 30 minutes.


----------



## sqkcrk

And?


----------



## Lauri

Black foundation helps when comb is fresh










Black foundation:









Foundationless:









Yes:









Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo inch:


----------



## Acebird

Richard Cryberg said:


> I suggest anyone who can not see eggs should never be allowed to drive a car after dusk or before full morning light as they are a hazard to their fellow man on the road.


Are there a lot of eggs on the road in Ohio that you have to drive around? I will avoid Ohio just to keep your mind at ease.


----------



## Acebird

Lauri said:


> Black foundation helps when comb is fresh


It also helps when your photo is magnified 2 or 3 to 1 like you show.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> I just don't see him doing what you suggest.


Your right Mark.


----------



## Acebird

Colino said:


> so I will ignore his posts in the future.
> Colino


Perfect. Come back when you get your facts straight or not.


----------



## BeeCurious

sqkcrk said:


> Well, knowing Brian, primarily through how he presents himself in beesource, I just don't see him doing what you suggest. Your suggestions are good ones, but this is Brian.


"but this is Brian"

What does that mean?


----------



## Mike Gillmore

sqkcrk said:


> You live in an urban environment where hives regularly casting off swarms would mean trouble for you. Brian lives in Utica, not in the suburbs or in the country. Not exactly downtown, but close enough.
> ... He seems to want to have bees in his chicken run/back yard.


So ... he's in an urban environment where swarms are a concern. But he has free range chickens running around in his yard ????
Never been to Utica, but somehow this doesn't make sense.


----------



## sqkcrk

Maybe Brian could make it clear for us. Repost his pictures and such.


----------



## sqkcrk

Richard Cryberg said:


> I suggest anyone who can not see eggs should never be allowed to drive a car after dusk or before full morning light as they are a hazard to their fellow man on the road.


You sure seem to have some pretty high standards for other people. I hope you maintain them for yourself.

I had cataract surgery and my distance vision is excellent, w/out glasses. I wore corrective glasses since the 7th grade when I could no longer read the black board from the front row. Almost 50 years later I can read road signs w/out glasses just fine.

When it comes to seeing eggs that's a different matter. Even w/ reading glasses it is difficult. Maybe you'd like to come help me?


----------



## sqkcrk

BeeCurious said:


> "but this is Brian"
> 
> What does that mean?


It means, as he confirmed above, "He ain't likely to do it." Brian is who he is and he has shown he is not likely to do something like what you suggested he do. It isn't a criticism, just a fact. I don't see how that can be hard for anyone who has read his Posts to understand or accept.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> It means, as he confirmed above, "He ain't likely to do it." Brian is who he is and he has shown he is not likely to do something like what you suggested he do. It isn't a criticism, just a fact. I don't see how that can be hard for anyone who has read his Posts to understand or accept.


Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am what I am.


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am what I am.


Yes, the third highest poster with little mastery of the Art of Beekeeping.


----------



## Acebird

Mike Gillmore said:


> So ... he's in an urban environment where swarms are a concern. But he has free range chickens running around in his yard ????
> Never been to Utica, but somehow this doesn't make sense.


You are absolutely right. It doesn't make sense. It is probably the only commercial establishment that has the best looking gardens in NYS and probably other neighboring states. We are the only legitimate City resident to have chickens (by permit). We are the largest and oldest self storage business in Upstate NY and we blow the doors off of Uhaul a national chain right across the street. They ask my wife for her advice. 'They try to hire her. She sends them reputable employees that are educated. They can't figure out how she does it. You are absolutely right it doesn't make sense. 

Do a survey and see how many commercial establishments around the world have what we have. Our day is full.

I spent the day preparing the back forty for garlic planting. My wife spent the day at the Antique Center in Little falls. I'm tired, she is tired, good night.


----------



## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> with little mastery of the Art of Beekeeping.


There in lies the problem. If it were a science it would be water off a ducks back but what you said, an art. I couldn't paint a picture if my life depended on it. A room, that is a different story it has boundaries no one can argue.


----------



## linn

Maybe you can make the hive a little warmer and not worry about ventilation. Take a deep super and staple bee proof hardware cloth on the bottom. Drill a 7/8th vent hole on the front by the handle hole. Staple hardware cloth on both sides of the vent hole. Fill the deep super with straw. Place this super insulated deep on top of the top super. This is what I am doing with two hives in trouble.


----------



## tanksbees

Non intervention is fine, that's what happens in nature every day.

But in order to be a non intervention beekeeper, you have to accept that you might not always have bees. At some point the hive will die, and you will have to wait for a swarm. You may never get a swarm. You might get some honey on occasion. Or maybe never. You may never have bees again.

Acebird, what's happening is totally normal. A predator invaded your hive. So stay the course. No point in intervening if it goes against your philosophies. If you lose the bees just wait for a swarm to move back in.


----------



## wcubed

"eggs on the road" Score one for Ace. And I'm not a fan.
Walt


----------



## Barry Digman

Acebird said:


> I spent the day preparing the back forty for garlic planting.


Do you have the land to the southwest, all the way across the creek to the freeway? Does the traffic impact your bees?


----------



## DanielD

wcubed said:


> "eggs on the road" Score one for Ace. And I'm not a fan.
> Walt


That was pretty good.


----------



## NewbeeInNH

11 pages on this subject? Wow.

Sorry to hear the SHB is an issue in upstate NY. I've felt pretty immune here in southern NH, but guess I should count my lucky stars on that one.


----------



## cg3

Barry Digman said:


> Does the traffic impact your bees?


I might worry about the fumes on that garden.


----------



## Barry Digman

wcubed said:


> "eggs on the road" Score one for Ace. And I'm not a fan.
> Walt


Perhaps we now know more about why the chicken...


----------



## BeeCurious

cg3 said:


> I might worry about the fumes on that garden.


Yes, and the lead from years back....


----------



## woodyard

I have one suggestion for Mr Ace that he might consider that would save his back and thus maybe help to increase his number of inspections. You might consider using a modified top bar hive that use the frames that you have. It is basically a horizontal hive body as long as you want, to use your frames of drawn comb. You could use sectional top covers and follower boards that confine the bees to the space that they need at that time. You would never have to lift more than a section of cover and one frame at a time to inspect or pull honey. I know an older gentleman in my area that has gone to this. 
Keep up the entertainment gentlemen!


----------



## mathesonequip

woodyard ..good idea but we are kind of far north to make top bar hives a prudent choice. this might appeal to mr. acebird though.


----------



## woodyard

I wondered about that for the winter up there. It might appeal to him though, something to experiment with.


----------



## Acebird

Barry Digman said:


> Do you have the land to the southwest, all the way across the creek to the freeway? Does the traffic impact your bees?


No Barry our land stops at the creek on the southwest and the the RR tracks on the northwest if you are using google maps. The state owns the other side of the creek. The cell tower is about in the middle. We can feel the traffic in the house when the 18 wheeler's hit the bridge span. I suspect the bees feel it and glue everything in all the more but that is a guess on my part. I don't see any other affect on the bees. When I watch them go they are 20 ft in the air before leaving the property. I see the bees fly mostly east, south and west but they have to get 60 ft in the air to fly north. They could be doing that but I can't see them. Another thing I don't see is dead bees around the bill board because of the powerful lights. The hive faces the bill board and the back scatter of the lights light up the whole back yard.


----------



## NewbeeInNH

If urban beekeepers can thrive, I don't think you'd have a problem.


----------



## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> Yes, and the lead from years back....


I am beyound child bearing years so lead in my pencil doesn't hurt.


----------



## sqkcrk

Yeah, I am sure that's what beecurious was concerned about, the lead in your pencil. It was the lead in your honey. I don't know if anyone ever checks for that when folks check for what's in honey. Do they?


----------



## BeeCurious

Lead in one's brain and other organs is what I had in mind...


----------



## crofter

Lead in your pencil and no one to write to can be bad too!


----------



## waynesgarden

crofter said:


> Lead in your pencil and no one to write to can be bad too!


As is having 10,000 pencils and nothing to say.

Wayne


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> It was the lead in your honey.


Lead in my honey. Is that why it is so heavy? Didn't know it could get in honey. How does that happen?


----------



## Acebird

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/food/inspection/honey/preventlead.htm

The Canadians think it might come from old extractors and tools.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Lead in my honey. Is that why it is so heavy? Didn't know it could get in honey. How does that happen?


I don't know that it does. Don't start talking about this w/ your friends and coworkers, please.


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/food/inspection/honey/preventlead.htm
> 
> The Canadians think it might come from old extractors and tools.


There are other studies...


----------



## NewbeeInNH

I never even thought about lead. In honey? Bleh! But I've known people who have lead in their soil. How many people have their soil tested for lead? Maybe what you don't know doesn't drive you crazy. We're all a little brain damaged now.


----------



## sqkcrk

Oh, no, what have we started now?


----------



## Barry Digman

Let's put the lead thing to rest asap. I'll start:



> In general, plants do not absorb or accumulate lead. However, in soils testing high in lead, it is possible for some lead to be taken up. Studies have shown that lead does not readily accumulate in the fruiting parts of vegetable and fruit crops (e.g., corn, beans, squash, tomatoes, strawberries, apples). Higher concentrations are more likely to be found in leafy vegetables (e.g., lettuce) and on the surface of root crops (e.g., carrots).
> 
> Since plants do not take up large quantities of soil lead, the lead levels in soil considered safe for plants will be much higher than soil lead levels where eating of soil is a concern (pica). Generally, it has been considered safe to use garden produce grown in soils with total lead levels less than 300 ppm. The risk of lead poisoning through the food chain increases as the soil lead level rises above this concentration. Even at soil levels above 300 ppm, most of the risk is from lead contaminated soil or dust deposits on the plants rather than from uptake of lead by the plant.
> http://www.extension.umn.edu/garden/yard-garden/soils/lead-in-home-garden/


----------



## cg3

Look! A squirrel!


----------



## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> It is probably the only commercial establishment that has the best looking gardens in NYS and probably other neighboring states. We are the only legitimate City resident to have chickens (by permit). We are the largest and oldest self storage business in Upstate NY and we blow the doors off of Uhaul a national chain right across the street. They ask my wife for her advice. 'They try to hire her. She sends them reputable employees that are educated. They can't figure out how she does it. You are absolutely right it doesn't make sense


Seriously the best looking garden in NYS and probably other neighboring states? 

We are the *only* legitimate City resident to have chickens (by permit)?

We are the largest and oldest self storage business in Upstate NY?

That is a lot of tall claims and I find it all a little hard to believe. Care to to elaborate a little more on these items, or you a pathological fibber as well?


----------



## sqkcrk

Elaborate, Nabber? You mean you want him to tell you more about how big and wonderful and better their self storage business is? Or maybe the name of this business?

It must be All-Safe Storage, Old Campion Rd, New Hartford. It's the only one across the road from U-Haul.


----------



## BeeCurious

sqkcrk said:


> . It was the lead in your honey.



No, I was thinking about the lead in the vegetables... 

You were the first to mention lead in honey.


----------



## cg3

I knew someone who forever contaminated their soil by putting sewage sludge containing lead on it.


----------



## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> Elaborate, Nabber? You mean you want him to tell you more about how big and wonderful and better their self storage business is? Or maybe the name of this business?
> 
> It must be All-Safe Storage, Old Campion Rd, New Hartford. It's the only one across the road from U-Haul.


Oldest storage in upstate NY, heh? What a joke. How can anyone trust anything that Ace posts? He probably lost his first 3 years ago and has been embellishing ever since. 

_
Founded in *1984 *by lifelong Mohawk Valley resident Tom Sears, All-Safe Storage offers portable storage, as well as traditional self-storage units.....

_I am sure that they have grown bigger than U-Haul since 1984?


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> I am beyound child bearing years so lead in my pencil doesn't hurt.


From the Mayo Clinic :

Lead poisoning symptoms in adults

Although children are primarily at risk, lead poisoning is also dangerous for adults. Signs and symptoms in adults may include:

High blood pressure
Abdominal pain
Constipation
Joint pains
Muscle pain
Declines in mental functioning
Pain, numbness or tingling of the extremities
Headache
Memory loss
Mood disorders
Reduced sperm count, abnormal sperm
Miscarriage or premature birth in pregnant women

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/lead-poisoning/basics/symptoms/con-20035487


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> It must be All-Safe Storage, Old Campion Rd, New Hartford. 


Mark, I think you are misleading Nabber.  :no: 
I'm pretty sure this is the self-storage business that Ace and his wife manage:

http://accessstorageutica.com/


----------



## philip.devos

Except for the time the hive was slimed by SHB larva (2012 I think), I have never had the kind of infestation you describe.

However, I have from time to time pulled out frames that had several dozen SHB's and few bees, replacing the frames with plastic foundation or foundationless.

Immediately after the slime incident I put 2 or more beetle blaster traps in the hives. I now do not use any SHB traps, but just make sure that I have lots of bees wherever there is either stores or brood. It seems like as long as there are plenty of bees the SHB's cannot do any damage.


----------



## sqkcrk

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > It must be All-Safe Storage, Old Campion Rd, New Hartford.
> 
> 
> Mark, I think you are misleading Nabber.  :no:
> I'm pretty sure this is the self-storage business that Ace and his wife manage:
> 
> http://accessstorageutica.com/


Brian Cardinal's wife's name is Lesa Blanchard? Is Access Self Storage across the highway from U-Haul? I clearly remember Brian saying his place of employment is across from U-Haul. Am I wrong about that? Or is something else going on?

W/ the information provided by Brian himself, I am not the one misleading anyone.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Mark, you can check the address in this post #101. It matches the address of the storage facility I linked.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?261719-Crystallization/page6


----------



## sqkcrk

I'm sure you are correct, but didn't Brian say he was across from U-Haul? I have seen those storage units many times over looking them from the highway.


----------



## sqkcrk

"we blow the doors off of Uhaul a national chain right across the street. "

Now I see that when web searching "Utica Self Storage Unit" U-Haul and Access Storage are so close together that on the map they are on top of each other. So I guess Brian was right in his description of the two facilities. Whether all the other stuff he said is true and accurate or not is up to someone else to determine.


----------



## wildbranch2007

BeeCurious said:


> Lead poisoning symptoms in adults
> 
> 
> High blood pressure
> Abdominal pain
> Constipation
> Joint pains
> Muscle pain
> Declines in mental functioning
> Pain, numbness or tingling of the extremities
> Headache
> Memory loss
> Mood disorders
> Reduced sperm count, abnormal sperm


gee I have all those symptoms but no problem with lead, they are worse when pulling honey in the fall, I think the young people call it old age.:thumbsup:


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> I have seen those storage units many times over looking them from the highway.


You can't see All Safe Storage from the highway. You are looking at Access Self Storage. Uhaul is on one side of Lomond Pl and we are on the other. Orange vs. Blue. Uhaul is primarily truck and trailer rentals with some storage. We are just storage with approximately 600 units and we were first in the self storage business. If you have the need come see the difference. I know which one you will choose.


----------



## NewbeeInNH

You don't need a self-storage unit until you need one. There is definitely a market there.


----------



## cg3

I see beehives, cell tower, and a garden along the road at Access. Is that a dam in the creek?


----------



## Acebird

There are two between the highway and the RR tracks. There is also a sluiceway deep in the woods behind the cell tower. The property was a paper mill at one time.


----------



## Nabber86

cg3 said:


> I see beehives, cell tower, and a garden along the road at Access. Is that a dam in the creek?



Yes the largest and oldest garden in upstate NY.


----------



## tanksbees

Nabber86 said:


> Yes the largest and oldest garden in upstate NY.


I'm sure there is more to the story.

In case anyone is wondering where the oldest garden in upstate NY is:
https://goo.gl/maps/pj8KP
http://binged.it/1ETvzQB


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> There are two between the highway and the RR tracks. There is also a sluiceway deep in the woods behind the cell tower. The property was a paper mill at one time.


There are a number of dams on that "creek" that once were used to run Mills. I have swum in those waters near the Paris Hill Road exit. Brrr, even on a hot day. But nice.


----------



## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> There are a number of dams on that "creek" that once were used to run Mills. I have swum in those waters near the Paris Hill Road exit. Brrr, even on a hot day. But nice.


I would hate to see how contaminated that creek is, not to mention the soil is Ace's "organic" garden.


----------



## Acebird

No more than any other creek running through NYS. People fish it for trout.


----------



## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> No more than any other creek running through NYS. People fish it for trout.


Corn-eyed brown trout contaminated with mercury. 

It's amazing to me how you are so worried about pesticides in GMO crops when you basically live in a toxic waste dump. You got bigger problems to worry about.


----------



## Acebird

Nabber86 said:


> Corn-eyed brown trout contaminated with mercury.
> 
> It's amazing to me how you are so worried about pesticides in GMO crops when you basically live in a toxic waste dump. You got bigger problems to worry about.


Part of the reason why industry left Upstate is because of the people demanding protection from pollution. Much of that went south. The good thing is if the pollution is stopped the environment tends to clean itself. The one thing that NY still faces is acid rain which is carried in by the Westerlies. This would be no different than radioactive fallout hitting CA originating from China.

I am worried about pesticides and GMO because that increases the toxic waste dump. The more populated an area is the more pollution there will be. We all can't click our heals and live in Kansas.


----------



## garusher

Yip, 2 years ago i went home. To the country i thought would remain natural and green. first time in 10 years.

Seems the almighty power of the dollar has far reaches and everyone is chasing it; with no regard to the consequences. a shame i might add. actually i was embarrassed, i told my wife how green the country used to be.

the Contamination is everywhere, where i live now, farmers drive me nuts, just bury the trash or dump it in a slew, no body will see it, it will be okay.

When are we going to learn. 20 years? 50 years and we will all be having mutant babies.

G.


----------



## tanksbees

garusher said:


> When are we going to learn. 20 years? 50 years and we will all be having mutant babies.


If they have 6 fingers on each hand it will make it easier to play guitar. And if they have 3 arms then easier to do hive inspections.

We already have mutants among us:
http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity...florida-woman-claims-shocking-surgery-2014229


----------



## sqkcrk

Nabber86 said:


> I would hate to see how contaminated that creek is, not to mention the soil is Ace's "organic" garden.


Okay. It seems to me you and some of the other Tailgater folks have a real need to find the dark side of issues. Whataya want to do, live forever?


----------



## garusher

actually sqkcrk, i may have jumped on the tailgate of something; i did not read all the comments.

BUT; It amazes me; the reverse of your comment is the very first step everyone needs to learn. and turn around one person at a time the mess we have create by being reluctant to deal with.

saying. between the lines.

I don't care, it's already a mess, so what. i don't want to live forever

how about the well being of future generations of your family?

G.


----------



## sqkcrk

Assumptions on the part of some here appears to be that Sauquoit Creek is polluted. The DEC would be complicit in the harming of peoples health if it were so, since the NYS DEC annually stocks Sauquoit Creek w/trout. 

" Sauquoit Creek is a popular trout stream in Oneida County. It has 5.6 miles of Public Fishing Rights 
and is stocked with around 6,000 yearling brown 
trout. It also receives 330 two year old fish. The 
headwaters are predominantly hold wild brown 
and brook trout."

I hope your streams are as clean as ours.


----------



## sqkcrk

garusher said:


> actually sqkcrk, i may have jumped on the tailgate of something; i did not read all the comments.
> 
> BUT; It amazes me; the reverse of your comment is the very first step everyone needs to learn. and turn around one person at a time the mess we have create by being reluctant to deal with.
> 
> saying. between the lines.
> 
> I don't care, it's already a mess, so what. i don't want to live forever
> 
> how about the well being of future generations of your family?
> 
> G.


I am only responsible for what I write, not what you read. If you want toread between the lines, that is up to you. You may well be reading something I not only did not write but did not mean. Which says more about you than me, I think.

I grew up w/in a bike rides distance of one of the most polluted rivers in our Nation, at the time, the Potomac River and its tributaries like Piscataway Creek. Yet there were plenty of creeks which I drank from regularly when out exploring the farms and woods behind my house. Which was w/in sight of the Washington Monument on a clear day standing on the roof of the house I grew up in.

People were commonly warned not to eat fish caught out of the Anacostia and Potomac Rivers and their tributaries. Since then, those rivers and streams have been cleaned up so much so that fishing bans are no longer imposed, afaik.

Let's be aware, and knowledgeable, but not afraid.


----------



## cg3

The Cayuhoga no longer catched fire. Thanks, EPA.


----------



## sqkcrk

Does it still flow backwards?


----------



## cg3

Just downhill.


----------



## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> Assumptions on the part of some here appears to be that Sauquoit Creek is polluted. The DEC would be complicit in the harming of peoples health if it were so, since the NYS DEC annually stocks Sauquoit Creek w/trout.
> 
> " Sauquoit Creek is a popular trout stream in Oneida County. It has 5.6 miles of Public Fishing Rights
> and is stocked with around 6,000 yearling brown
> trout. It also receives 330 two year old fish. The
> headwaters are predominantly hold wild brown
> and brook trout."
> 
> I hope your streams are as clean as ours.


The ol' switcharoo. We have now gone full circle from neonics are contaminating everything on earth to nature can clean itself up on its own and NY is not contaminated. 

Here is a list of fish advisories for the Adirondack region: http://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/outdoors/fish/health_advisories/regional/adirondack.htm


There is a highly contaminated site located about 3 miles upstream on Sauquoit Creek from Ace's place (3456 Onieda Street). Mainly PCB; similar to most of upstate NY. It will cost about 5 million to cleanup, according to State estimates (it will be 10 to 15 million before they are done). One thing to keep in mind is that an easy way to "re-store" the is to introduce trout. Trout are not affected by PCBs and it is cheaper and easier to do than cleaning up the site, and it makes for good press. I cant wait to see what happens to the trout population when they dredge the creek bed to remove contaminated sediment. Turbid, oxygen depleted water is not good for trout. 

More info on the Sauquoit: http://www.uticaod.com/article/20100206/News/302069961


----------



## sqkcrk

Nabber86 said:


> The ol' switcharoo. We have now gone full circle from neonics are contaminating everything on earth to nature can clean itself up on its own and NY is not contaminated.


I never said that. Stop trying to put words into my mouth.

Oh, alright good Nabber, I promise to never ever swim in Sauquoit Creek ever again and I also promise never to ever sire any more children again too. Okay? Is that better?

Oh, I forgot, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!

Okay?


----------



## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> I never said that. Stop trying to put words into my mouth.
> 
> Oh, alright good Nabber, I promise to never ever swim in Sauquoit Creek ever again and I also promise never to ever sire any more children again too. Okay? Is that better?
> 
> Oh, I forgot, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!
> 
> Okay?


This is weird. I am usually the one down playing the effects of environmental contamination.


----------



## sqkcrk

"I am usually the weird one down playing the effects of environmental contamination." Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3


----------



## crofter

I get a kick out of people that obsess about some possible danger that is statistically of minute consequence and in the meantime smoke, eat barbecued food, drink, be way overweight etc. and think nothing of that. Seems like picking a villain that they can be indignant about (and which they can do nothing about but talk) I have heard it referred to as drinking from the trough of indignation. Feel good stuff!


----------



## Nabber86

crofter said:


> I get a kick out of people that obsess about some possible danger that is statistically of minute consequence and in the meantime smoke, eat barbecued food, drink, be way overweight etc. and think nothing of that. Seems like picking a villain that they can be indignant about (and which they can do nothing about but talk) I have heard it referred to as drinking from the trough of indignation. Feel good stuff!


I think that is the point that I have been trying to make. To clarify: 

I get a kick out of people that obsess about some possible danger from *neonics* that is statistically of minute consequence and in the meantime *live in a toxic waste dump* and think nothing of that. 

Got to head to the Royals game now!


----------



## waynesgarden

crofter said:


> I get a kick out of people that obsess about some possible danger that is statistically of minute consequence and in the meantime smoke, eat barbecued food, drink, be way overweight etc. and think nothing of that.


I must have a different set of friends than you. My environmentally-minded friends are more sensible than that. They are not all as perfect in their habits as you expect them to be but they are aware.

Just curious, what environmental danger do you consider to be "statistically of minute consequence?"

Wayne


----------



## DanielD

Well, this thread used to be a good read.


----------



## tanksbees

waynesgarden said:


> I must have a different set of friends than you. My environmentally-minded friends are more sensible than that. They are not all as perfect in their habits as you expect them to be but they are aware.
> 
> Just curious, what environmental danger do you consider to be "statistically of minute consequence?"
> 
> Wayne


Pretty much all environmental dangers are statistically of minute consequence.

As long as people live long enough to breed, life will continue normally on earth, and if environmental dangers skew towards wiping out mostly older people, that will create more resources for young people. So it's a good thing for the planet.

Case closed.

In the end our sun will go supernova and none of this will matter anymore.


----------



## rwurster

tanksbees said:


> In the end our sun will go supernova and none of this will matter anymore.


Pretty sure the sun will swell and scorch the earth, possibly engulf it, but I get the gist :gh:


----------



## Nabber86

tanksbees said:


> In the end our sun will go supernova and none of this will matter anymore.



Good news. Our sun sun can't go supernova. It will die a slow death and by collapsing down into a white dwarf and slowly cool to the background temperature of the Universe.

Yet another trivial thing that we don't need to worry about.


----------



## sqkcrk

tanksbees said:


> In the end our sun will go supernova and none of this will matter anymore.


Before that happens we, our species, will be extinct, so no one will be here to witness it happening.

Environmental dangers don't have to skew towards wiping out older people, life does that on its own, don't you think?


----------



## sqkcrk

DanielD said:


> Well, this thread used to be a good read.


Haven't we pretty much exhausted anything pertinent regarding Acebird's one hive? If not, what more is there to say?


----------



## wildbranch2007

sqkcrk said:


> Haven't we pretty much exhausted anything pertinent regarding Acebird's one hive? If not, what more is there to say?


I don't know, but if you people keep it up the thread is headed for a tailgaters death.


----------



## sqkcrk

Worse things could happen. It could cause a supernova or a solar collapse.


----------



## dsegrest

tanksbees said:


> Pretty much all environmental dangers are statistically of minute consequence.
> 
> As long as people live long enough to breed, life will continue normally on earth, and if environmental dangers skew towards wiping out mostly older people, that will create more resources for young people. So it's a good thing for the planet.
> 
> As an older person, I resent that attitude.


----------



## Acebird

wildbranch2007 said:


> but if you people keep it up the thread is headed for a tailgaters death.


You don't think that is the intent?

The last few days have been as much as 20 degrees higher then the norm for my region with more warm weather on the way. That is not what I had hoped for. A good heavy frost would kill some of the beetles.


----------



## dsegrest

So would some diatomaceous earth and some Freeman bottom boards.


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> A good heavy frost would kill some of the beetles.



Where did you get that impression?

Frost will not have an effect on the hive beetles in your hive...


----------



## dsegrest

For God's sake Brian. Be a beekeeper. Haven't you learned that when we keep things in captivity we have to serve them. The real slave is the master.


----------



## mathesonequip

could everybody hold off an hour or so? I need to go to the store for more popcorn.


----------



## BeeCurious

mathesonequip said:


> could everybody hold off an hour or so? I need to go to the store for more popcorn.


Pick up some "Beetle Blasters" for Acebird while you're out.


----------



## wildbranch2007

mathesonequip said:


> could everybody hold off an hour or so? I need to go to the store for more popcorn.


I have to admit, this thread has gone on far longer than I would have expected, but I think Brian is getting better at bobbing and weaving, so I'll keep watching. waiting for the thread count to hit 10,000


----------



## BeeCurious

wildbranch2007 said:


> I have to admit, this thread has gone on far longer than I would have expected, but I think Brian is getting better at bobbing and weaving, so I'll keep watching. waiting for the thread count to hit 10,000


I'm trying to get Acebird's post count over 10,000

It shouldn't take long...


----------



## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> Where did you get that impression?
> 
> Frost will not have an effect on the hive beetles in your hive...


In past years I would see a beetle fall in the pan using SBB when the weather got cold. They can only survive if they can get in the warmth of the cluster.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> A good heavy frost would kill some of the beetles.


Not everyone seems to think that ...  



> Research conducted by the NSW Department of Environment and Primary Industries (Levot et al, 2005) found that all SHB life-cycle stages were susceptible to cold temperature. The minimum exposure times needed to disinfest boxes of empty stored comb were 6 hours in a freezer (temperature of minus 13ºC to minus 22ºC) or 12 days in a refrigerated cold room (temperature of 1ºC to 9ºC).
> 
> http://www.depi.vic.gov.au/agricult...ases/bees/small-hive-beetle-a-beekeeping-pest


I recognize that _SOME _have trouble with *math*, so I have taken the liberty of doing the heavy lifting and revised the above to use Fahrenheit instead:



> Research conducted by the NSW Department of Environment and Primary Industries (Levot et al, 2005) found that all SHB life-cycle stages were susceptible to cold temperature. The *minimum *exposure times needed to disinfest boxes of empty stored comb were 6 hours in a freezer (temperature of *minus *8.6ºF to *minus *7.6ºF) or *12 days* in a refrigerated cold room (temperature of 33.8ºF to 48.2ºF).
> 
> http://www.depi.vic.gov.au/agricult...ases/bees/small-hive-beetle-a-beekeeping-pest


:gh:

... just how long does a "_heavy frost_" last in Utica ... :s


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> In past years I would see a beetle fall in the pan using SBB when the weather got cold. They can only survive if they can get in the warmth of the cluster.


Oh! Don't worry, they are in the cluster!

They survived last winter, didn't they?




I suspect the SHB's also die from old age....


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> ... just how long does a "_heavy frost_" last in Utica ... :s


Usually from Nov. to March.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Usually from Nov. to March.


Well, its two weeks til November even _starts_, so those beetles may be hanging around for some time yet.


----------



## mathesonequip

ok I confess.. I could not stand missing out on any of this so I am a few feet away cooking some 2:1.


----------



## sqkcrk

BeeCurious said:


> Where did you get that impression?
> 
> Frost will not have an effect on the hive beetles in your hive...


:thumbsup:


----------



## D Coates

I can't help but giggle. More and more rope is given by others, the faster it's taken up by the same individual and tied into perfect hangman's nooses of glittering ignorance that then hang from his neck. Almost 10,000 posts, yet he's apparently still learned nothing.


----------



## DanielD

Hey thanks Ace. I knew you could get the guys going again. I almost asked you to do something to save the tread. It was spiraling down to evolutionary thought hopelessness.


----------



## mathesonequip

DanielD said:


> Hey thanks Ace. I knew you could get the guys going again. I almost asked you to do something to save the tread. It was spiraling down to evolutionary thought hopelessness.


 I am strugleing not to be sarcastic


----------



## sqkcrk

D Coates said:


> Almost 10,000 posts, yet he's apparently still learned nothing.


It's a talent.


----------



## Acebird

DanielD said:


> I knew you could get the guys going again.


How hard is that? A puppy on a string...


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> How hard is that? A puppy on a string...


"A puppy on a string "? 

Is that what you meant?


----------



## waynesgarden

BeeCurious said:


> "A puppy on a string "?
> 
> Is that what you meant?



From the song "Norma Jean Riley" by Diamond Rio:
__________________________________________
Wish I had a dog
Seen her in the park with a puppy on a string
Looking so cute maybe sooner or later we'd meet
Norma Jean Riley's gonna talk to me
__________________________________________

Not sure who was looking so cute, the puppy or Norma Jean or how Ace fits in the scene.

Wayne


----------



## BeeCurious

wildbranch2007 said:


> I think Brian is getting better at bobbing and weaving


The bobbing, and the weaving, might be symptoms and not maneuvers....


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

I think this is another case where Ace is trying to prove that *SPELLING DOESN'T MATTER*! :lpf:



Acebird said:


> A puppy on a string...


Perhaps what he really meant was this ....








_Photo Credit_



Ace sees himself at the _Puppetmaster _.... 

k:


----------



## Acebird

Comon guys keep it up. Just nine more views and the views count will equal my post count. There has to be a prize for that.


----------



## cg3

Yeah. But they hide the prize in your bottom hive box.


----------



## mathesonequip

cg3 said:


> Yeah. But they hide the prize in your bottom hive box.


perfect


----------



## funwithbees

I think y'all need a few more hives of bees to work. Way too much time on your hands!:lookout:
nick


----------



## tanksbees

Anyone done any cooking with hive beetles? I've heard the larvae give pasta some extra spice.


----------



## Acebird

Holy cow the views count got over my post count and I didn't even notice. Tanksbees what is the recipe? Do you mash them?


----------



## tanksbees

Acebird said:


> Holy cow the views count got over my post count and I didn't even notice. Tanksbees what is the recipe? Do you mash them?


Deep fried, sprinkled over spaghetti noodles, with some crushed garlic, chives, and EVOO.

Or eat them straight, healthy, organic, low carb, gluten free.


----------



## BeeCurious

Okay guys, let's get back on topic! 

Acebird, 

You might be interested in this thread


----------



## dsegrest

tanksbees said:


> Deep fried, sprinkled over spaghetti noodles, with some crushed garlic, chives, and EVOO.
> 
> Or eat them straight, healthy, organic, low carb, gluten free.


I bet they are sweet. Maybe some ginger and cinnamon would be good.


----------



## cg3

Acebird said:


> Holy cow the views count got over my post count


Better go check for your prize!


----------



## dsegrest

cg3 said:


> Better go check for your prize!


This is my favorite thread. He deserves the prize, but it will probably be a dead queen.


----------



## mathesonequip

dsegrest said:


> This is my favorite thread. He deserves the prize, but it will probably be a dead queen.


probably not a dead queen, they have value for making a good swarm lure.


----------



## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> Okay guys, let's get back on topic!
> 
> Acebird,
> 
> You might be interested in this thread


You should ask Mark about that.


----------



## tommyt

17 pages and still growing
On Ace's one hive 

Let's all give thanks he doesn't have a Dozen


----------



## BeeCurious

BeeCurious said:


> Okay guys, let's get back on topic!
> 
> Acebird,
> 
> You might be interested in this thread





Acebird said:


> You should ask Mark about that.


OK, I'll ask Mark if you might be interested in the "Single Hive Honey" thread. 

I suspect that you are....


----------



## Acebird

tommyt said:


> 17 pages and still growing
> On Ace's one hive
> 
> Let's all give thanks he doesn't have a Dozen


I was wondering when you would show up. It took 326 previous post but you still showed up. Admit it ... resistance is futile.


----------



## TalonRedding

This "one hive" is becoming so famous that if Ace sold queens from it he would make a fortune! Heck, he might have the equal of a 100,000 colony operation on his hands, except......it's actually one colony! Slicker than snot that Ace fella is.......:applause:  
I wouldn't be surprised to see ads for One Hive queens and bees here on Beesource in the near future.


----------



## Acebird

TalonRedding said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see ads for One Hive queens and bees here on Beesource in the near future.


Could happen. You can kick people when they are down but you got a problem if they get up. My daddy told me never kick a person that is down.


----------



## BeeCurious

Instead of "bumping" the conversation on another thread I thought it was best to bring the discussion to this one, where Acebird had posted the photo... 





Acebird said:


> Does someone want to discuss how bad my frames are propolised?


Since you put out an invitation... 



BeeCurious said:


> Yes.
> 
> Your recent photo shows frames that look pristine to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this an example of your propolis-glued frames?


There doesn't seem to be any conversation-worthy propolis in my opinion.


----------



## sqkcrk

I see some burr comb on the left side of the open super. Where's the propolis? Between the frames? There's plenty of room in those 8 frame boxes to be able to break frames apart and remove combs w/out any problems, from what I can see. What's the problem?


----------



## odfrank

Or this:


----------



## odfrank

Or this:


----------



## linn

Acebird is right about the moisture collecting on the inside end walls of the hive bodies. The end frames are always a mess come Spring. I have not been able to solve the ventilation problem. I have tried non-porous (homosote, fiberboard) and I have tried porous (straw). Now, I am back to using porous (straw) deep quilt boxes with one ventilation 7/8th inches on the upper front top of the deep quilt box. Maybe cross ventilation is the answer. I just turn on the AC and the heat in the winter to keep the car windows from fogging up. Moisture is a problem-both in cars and hives. I am still working on it.


----------



## BeeCurious

linn said:


> Maybe cross ventilation is the answer.


I wouldn't think so. 

I would think that top entrances and/or notch-down inner covers would be helpful. 



odfrank said:


> Or this:


That's what I'm talking about! 



sqkcrk said:


> I see some burr comb on the left side of the open super. Where's the propolis? Between the frames? There's plenty of room in those 8 frame boxes to be able to break frames apart and remove combs w/out any problems, from what I can see. What's the problem?


The only problem I see is that there's too few bees for all those boxes. A double 5-frame medium could be enough room for those bees, and they could more easily control the SHB.


----------



## sqkcrk

linn said:


> I just turn on the AC and the heat in the winter to keep the car windows from fogging up. Moisture is a problem-both in cars and hives. I am still working on it.


Turn off the AC and crack a window. I suspect the AC is causing more condensation than anything.


----------



## sqkcrk

BeeCurious said:


> A double 5-frame medium could be enough room for those bees, and they could more easily control the SHB.


He may have SHB, but they are not a problem yet, just because they exist.


----------



## BeeCurious

I believe Acebird had a good number of shb... Hundreds isn't a problem? 

In any case, there doesn't appear to be a lot of bees for the volume of boxes.


----------



## sqkcrk

We only have Brian's description to go on. If he wrote "hundreds", were there actually hundreds or was that an exaggeration? He didn't describe any larvae, the stage at which SHB does damage. Presence of adult SHB does not cause damage. So, no hundreds isn't a problem. Not one that need addressing in Utica,NY approaching Winter and a colony w/ a low probability of surviving the Winter. If the colony dies so will the SHBs.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

From post #36 of this thread ....


Acebird said:


> Well thinking back those first frames were full honey frames that the worms had decapped and the honey, maybe slime, was dripping down. I did taste it and it tasted like honey though.


----------



## sqkcrk

Graham. Mr. Memory.  Yeah then, that's a problem.


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> From post #36 of this thread ....


Taking quotes out of context is what causes confusion. The frames that were slimmed are from a different hive from a different location that died or absconded. There was no larvae, or slim in the hive that is photographed.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Taking quotes out of context is what causes confusion.


As always, the little blue double arrow in the quote box, when clicked, will instantly take you to the original source of the quote. I'm a little surprised that you don't already know that by now. 

What causes the _MOST _confusion in your posts, IMHO, is when _you _post conflicting information/opinion in the same post or thread! :lpf:


----------



## the kid

After two hours they had enough of me. I broke the fourth box loose to give it a heft and I could see there was more honey below. remember I was bare handed and already took a stink. Very slight though. I wasn't sure I was stung until I saw the stinger sack. It was so mild.


must have been a young bee ,, it didn't have a full stinger yet ... they have to build up there sting venom


----------



## Acebird

the kid said:


> must have been a young bee ,, it didn't have a full stinger yet ... they have to build up there sting venom


Wouldn't it be unusual for a young bee to be a guard bee?


----------



## BeeCurious

I hope your colony is enjoying the Holiday Season!


----------



## dsegrest

Thanks and merry Christmas to whoever re-animated this thread. 

I think the guard-bees are fairly young, but I don't think they could get the job without a stinger.


----------

