# Mdasplitter powerhouse hive for increasing honey production



## VanceLane (Jul 1, 2021)

During my winter reading I got sucked down the mdasplitter rabbit hole… I’m not really interested in creating 16 hives but his powerhouse production hive caught my attention. The theory of combining multiple broodless/queenless hives in time for the flow does make sense, assuming the timing is right, but I can’t find any unbiased first-hand experiences of it actually working as planned anywhere I look online.
Do any of you more experienced keepers have any experience with this technique? Did it work as advertised in increasing honey production?
Thank in advance,
Vance


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Also interested in methods of bumping populations for a short time. I have a 2-3 week crop of blackberry I hope to partially capitalize on. Basic plan now is put an extra 10-frame box of capped brood on 2-3 hives 3-4 weeks in advance and super up as needed. But I'm intrigued by the multi-queen approach. Just hanging out to watch how this plays out.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

I dont have any direct experience with combining lots of queenless hives for more honey. I have seen ones that were queenless going well, then slow down when they had a new queen and were raising brood again. If the hive gets to big you may have problems with the bees running out of space to store the honey or not being able to dry the honey.


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## VanceLane (Jul 1, 2021)

I guess I’m trying to look at this from a scientific-method perspective of controlled variables and replicable results. I know… almost impossible, beekeeping is local. Timing, local flows, equipment, weather, space and keeper talent aside I feel like something is missing. I’m having a hard time finding any sources that can replicate Mel’s 100+lbs of surplus honey, which is unfortunate because I really want this to work, I love raising queens and extra honey would be a huge win-win. I keep falling back to the old saying of “if your options are overwintering, honey production, or more bees, you can pick 2 you can’t have all 3.”
I’m not knocking Mel by any means, hes done a huge service to this community building on old techniques and making all of that available for free to anyone who wants it. I just can’t find any sources that can testify to replicating his surplus numbers. I keep reading de-moralization, maybe his lines of bees are accustomed to being queenless with his heavy splitting management? I don’t know, I still have a lot to learn.


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

Here is what I understand of Mel's Powerhouse method: In early May, Mel makes four splits from an overwintered colony. These splits raise their own queens which start laying up the brood nest after mating and he allows them to do so for about four or five weeks. For the flow Mel chooses one split to remain queenright and makes some or all the remaining splits queenless combining them with the queenright split thus forming a colony with substantial brood and bees and timed for the nectar flow. I wish I had experience with this method to give my opinion but like you I will have to wait to hear from others. I am glad you asked.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

when something isn't common in bee keeping it is usually a combination of

A) doesn't work well
B) takes too much time per hive
C) is more about the art/skill of the keeper then science/just follow step 1,2,3
D) doesn't make an econimal impact
E) local time lines

so lets break down the method as shown


https://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/OTS.pdf



my 1st thought is D, I need a 10f double deep set up, and extra top and bottom , and 5 nucs per honey producing hive
5 nucs cost $315,Unassembled Complete Nuc Kit - Telescoping Cover but with the pair of extra tops and bottoms that you need anyway you can run 2 full sized hives and dubble you honey production with a pair of extra 10F deeps for only $50... when you add in B (cost of labor)are you going to make $265 per honey production per hive ?
2 queen hives used to be more popular when queens were cheap and more reliabul. the only extra equipment cost was queen excluder between the standard dubble deep set up... more honey out of the same amount of equipment...

that said I am a big fan of nucs supered in common

Moving on to A,D,E
"free" queens cost you
from another post, my math isn't prefect, but it gives you the Idea


> Spring Splits
> Its important to understand how they grow so you can fine tune your management A bee population grows linearly as the limiting factor is the queens laying rate (vs mites with grow exponentially)
> Past 4 frame of bees its a net gain of about 550 bees a day or about 2 frames of bee a week.. ( while the queen may be laying 1500 eggs a day, remember the old bees are dying)
> lets say we need 24 frames of bees for production, around 46,000 bees and we are dealing with a double deep 10f system getting close to swarming.. 20 frames of bees
> ...


there is a lot there.. but the main points are
it pays to import queens so you can split early (that why its a standard way of doing things)

supering nucs in common can be very productive, one reason we see it done in areas with a short season such as Can.


Single deep management can produce more honey

Splitting a queen less split as Mel suggests will leave you with some poor quality queens to weed out, they are very aparient in 2 queen systems were they have the same amount of resources..


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

VanceLane said:


> I guess I’m trying to look at this from a scientific-method perspective of *controlled variables* and replicable results. I know… almost impossible, *beekeeping is local*. Timing, local flows, equipment, weather, space and keeper talent aside I feel like something is missing. I’m having a hard time finding any sources that can replicate Mel’s 100+lbs of surplus honey, which is unfortunate because I really want this to work, I love raising queens and extra honey would be a huge win-win. I keep falling back to the old saying of “if your options are overwintering, honey production, or more bees, you can pick 2 you can’t have all 3.”
> I’m not knocking Mel by any means, hes done a huge service to this community building on old techniques and making all of that available for free to anyone who wants it. I just can’t find any sources* that can testify* to replicating his surplus numbers. I keep reading de-moralization, maybe *his lines of bees* are accustomed to being queenless with his heavy splitting management? I don’t know, I still have a lot to learn.


Ok a couple questions
how long have you had bees?
How many years "making your own queens"?

I'll highlight the words you use that offer help.

I have had hive do that easy 5 supers is doable every year for a couple hives.
They need a lot going well, plenty winter stores of honey and pollen, good build up at the right time, somewhat virus free, good to great queen, good to great flow.
Can every Apiary do it no of course not.

I noticed I did better with honey, queens , wintering, flow timing s I got more hive and more years. so for example 5 hives for 10 years is a similar experience to 10 hives for 5 years, each year you can learn from the bees. I do not do OTS as there are many ways to do the same, mentioned above order queens for example.

good luck

GG


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## VanceLane (Jul 1, 2021)

These are about the answers I was expecting. Thank you everyone who has responded thus far!

MSL: thank you for the quote! I saved that one To my notes


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

msl said:


> ...
> 
> Splitting a queen less split as Mel suggests will leave you with some poor quality queens to weed out, they are very aparient in 2 queen systems were they have the same amount of resources..


*Mel never does it*. He only splits* strong hives* which *created capped queen cells*. Ones capped they are done and can go to the split.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

jtgoral said:


> *Mel never does it* He only splits* strong hives* which *created capped queen cells*. Ones capped they are done and can go to the split.


as I said, "Splitting a queen less split" or respliting as some call it...pulling the queen form a hive and then breaking it in to Nucs after cells are drawn is exactly what his program is, and a sure fire way to get some poor queens (and some good ones too)

you have to rember that bees (when left in a full sized hive) have quality control over there queens, but to get there there they need enough cells/virgins to chose from... this is the answer to the question "why do they make so many cells when they only need one queen?"

so breaking it down (see links below for refrance)
lets use 20 emergry queen cells as its in the middle of the research results
we know they chose larve that can be too old to make a great queen in TOFILSKI* (2003) we see


> The queen cells were initiated around brood aged between 3 and 11 days; the average age of brood used to initiate queen cells was 5.9 ± 1.90 days


in Tarpy (2015) we see the bees tearing down about 60% of the cells the made, and those cells if left (protected by cages) produced poorer quality queens


> adult queens emerging from cells accessible to workers were larger in terms of compared to adult queens emerging from cells that were not accessible to workers. These results suggest that colonies regulate queen quality traits by curtailing low-quality queens from fully developing


we see this again in TOFILSKI* (2003)


> The age (at time of dequeening) of brood around which queen cells were built and from which queens emerged was 3.0 ± 1.40


so that while the average age cells were started on was 5.9, the ones that made it to emerge were younger larva..
and once again we see the bees culling cells


> Most of the queen cells (60.3%) were destroyed, 17.6% of them before capping and 42.7% after capping


form there its a "game of thrones" with the workers protecting cells and choosing sides , effecting witch virign wins



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45688664_Emergency_queen_rearing_in_honeybee_colonies_with_brood_of_known_age/link/02e7e527203d398ea4000000/download




https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/web.sas.upenn.edu/dist/1/212/files/2017/04/tarpy_et_al_2016_insectes_sociaux-xguqri.pdf




https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229628364_The_Behavior_of_Honey_Bees_Apis_mellifera_ligustica_during_Queen_Duels




https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00892156/document



so out of 20 cells the bees want to cull 12 of them as they are poor quality form being older larva, and they want to have virgins to fight it out and chose the best to support and win
here is a clip form Gilley, Tarpy (2005)









so you have 20 cells and it works out just fine so you have 5 in each nuc... that's not enough for the bees to chose form so they don't cull, and you only have a limited sample size so there is a good chance for a sub par queen to rule the hive... my experience (as i noted in the old quote) has been about 1 out of 3 is sub par.. I see far less lower performance "duds" in my grafted queens in the dule queen hives

As the old masters say it works, a walk away spilt works when you leave it alone... yes the bees chose larva that's too old, and they make a bunch of poor quality cells, but they sort it out later and it results is a decent queen most of the time.
but if you thow a monkey wrench in the bees processes you can have problems. 

recently some work has been done on small walk always, and they are showing good promise. the bees make more cells per bee as is were and they have enough to chose form Final report for FNE20-964 - SARE Grant Management System


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

right
but I'll offer 2 points.
1) If you pulled the original queen 3 days before she left, And happened to get cells C and K in different splits.
You could have the same as Nature had, 3 way split with old and C and K as queens.

2) off the queens that lost, there could have been 1 or 2 more that were good enough.

I agree the absolute best should happen with "many" cells, But I have seen 3 and 4 swarms issue, some, with to few bees to survive. where the last queen to hatch "inherited" the hive and it went down as well.

So there can be many permutations in the outcome. And if a queen is a dud you combine, the OP mentioned 3 for 1 where of 4 splits 1 queen was kept, the "culling" was perhaps done by the keeper there.

GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

msl said:


> as I said, "Splitting a queen less split" or respliting as some call it...pulling the queen form a hive and then breaking it in to Nucs after cells are drawn is exactly what his program is, and a *sure fire way to get some poor queens (and some good ones too)*
> 
> ...


From my experience: No.
Have you read Mel's book?
BTW: it is splitting a starter/finisher full of capped brood.


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## Island Bees (Dec 22, 2021)

In my experience there are a whole bunch of different strategies for increasing the foraging population in order to increase honey production including boosting, combining, two queens systems, or reducing open brood, but they are all working with the same basic ideas which is the more bees in a hive the more honey is produced per bee and they generally work. However, every strategy has a tradeoff in terms of time and resources. I think the only way any elaborate strategy would make economic sense is if you don't value your time and you have a very short, intense flow.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

VanceLane said:


> I guess I’m trying to look at this from a scientific-method perspective of controlled variables and replicable results. I know… almost impossible, beekeeping is local. Timing, local flows, equipment, weather, space and keeper talent aside I feel like something is missing. I’m having a hard time finding any sources that can replicate Mel’s 100+lbs of surplus honey, which is unfortunate because I really want this to work, I love raising queens and extra honey would be a huge win-win. I keep falling back to the old saying of “if your options are overwintering, honey production, or more bees, you can pick 2 you can’t have all 3.”
> I’m not knocking Mel by any means, hes done a huge service to this community building on old techniques and making all of that available for free to anyone who wants it. I just can’t find any sources that can testify to replicating his surplus numbers. I keep reading de-moralization, maybe his lines of bees are accustomed to being queenless with his heavy splitting management? I don’t know, I still have a lot to learn.


There is a lot of good advice above. 

I have seen 100+ lb/year off some of my hives without doing anything fancy/extra work/ect. The biggest things that seem to help with getting a lot of honey off a single hive is going into winter strong (and coming out strong), a strong queen, and a good flow. If the flow where you are at only lasts 2 weeks you are going to have a hard time doing much/anything to get 100 lbs/hive. When I have had weak hives going into winter (and in the spring) and/or failing queens they may not store enough honey to make it thru winter, much less generating enough extra to harvest. 

If you want to put the work (and $) into it you may be able to get all 3. If you split the hives after the flow tapers off and are willing to feed them you can sometimes get more hives before winter hits, and have more hives come spring. You will have a harder time selling nucs/hives in the fall if that is why you want more bees, but if it is to build your hive count it may be a viable option.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

I have not read Mel's book nor am I familiar with any of his theories. Last year, I did 5 triple deeps generating 1:3 splits with the mother queen staying with 16 frames in double deeps and 2 new "nucs of 7 frames, brood, food and a QC or 2 on May 1st, the beginning of swarm season here. The results were mixed, I lost 2 over the summer due to poorly mated queens-they never really got past the single deep nuc and lost 1 to mites in the fall-it never really took off. 5 of the ten were requeened with VSH stock, they had poorly mated queens but 7 (included re-queened) hive over wintered as of last Thursday's OAV treatment. From my (in-)experience, my local conditions and what I'm gleaming, doing this too early in the season and expecting a viable queen is very hit or miss. 

Despite some of the bravado of my post a week or two ago, I got shut out of adding the third deep this month due to weather conditions and going with the timeline discussed in that posts-I'm still waiting and probably will be in the same timeline, plus or minus of last year. What I experienced, is that early or maybe too early splits with emergency or supersedure QC or risky due to the lack of suitable, developed drones in any real numbers at early local DCA's. As I stated, I ended up buying replacements so was my sucess 70% or 20%? 

The plan this year is expansion but I'm going to follow the advice of a certain Bird a little closer along with some of my own dumb ideas. Once the weather is suitable, will add a third deep to 5 selected hives with a plan to split 5 pf the 30 frames into mother hive of 15 (then into honey production) and the remaining 15 frames into 3 five frame nuc's but will be using mated southern VSH queens rather than rely on QC's. This should result into 15 new colonies that should immediately start building up (subject to queen survival) and possibly get into honey production later this season. The donator hives have strong populations but are not genetically my best (negative honey production, hygienic, swarming etc. qualities). After the early flow, I will then split another 5-hive group in a similar fashion which will be what i consider to be my best hives (positive traits). In all, subject to losses, this should add 25-30 new colonies to my apiaries. I'm open to advice on this, not yet committed.

In a related note because I'm dealing with it, be aware of the equipment (and time) requirements to do this. I'm building plywood nucs from the plans I got from some people of this forum (thank you) and have ben savaging 3/4" plywood on craigslist, Facebook marketplace and some job sites. 15 new plywood nucs is still several hundred dollars using those plans. Then start think about a pallet or so of new deep brood boxes, frames, (I use) excluders, bases and covers. And the if you are expecting a payback (of some kind) you still need a few supers. 

I'll read Mel's book if I can.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

LarryBud said:


> I have not read Mel's book nor am I familiar with any of his theories. Last year, I did 5 triple deeps generating 1:3 splits with the mother queen staying with 16 frames in double deeps and 2 new "nucs of 7 frames, brood, food and a QC or 2 on May 1st, the beginning of swarm season here. The results were mixed, I lost 2 over the summer due to poorly mated queens-they never really got past the single deep nuc and lost 1 to mites in the fall-it never really took off. 5 of the ten were requeened with VSH stock, they had poorly mated queens but 7 (included re-queened) hive over wintered as of last Thursday's OAV treatment. From my (in-)experience, my local conditions and what I'm gleaming, doing this too early in the season and expecting a viable queen is very hit or miss.
> 
> Despite some of the bravado of my post a week or two ago, I got shut out of adding the third deep this month due to weather conditions and going with the timeline discussed in that posts-I'm still waiting and probably will be in the same timeline, plus or minus of last year. What I experienced, is that early or maybe too early splits with emergency or supersedure QC or risky due to the lack of suitable, developed drones in any real numbers at early local DCA's. As I stated, I ended up buying replacements so was my sucess 70% or 20%?
> 
> ...


$75 I spent for Mel's book was worth it in my opinion.
This is free and gives enough or maybe all information one needs: TheBee.Farm


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

jtgoral said:


> BTW: it is splitting a starter/finisher full of capped brood.


I guess he can call it what ever he wants, its a queen less split that is then resplit. 

notching didn't workout well for me, or some others here



squarepeg said:


> i appreciate your comment about not notching. i've had mixed results with cells not drawn where i notched and vice versa.





crofter said:


> I have tried notching comb on a few occasions when doing the Snelgrove separations and did not find that it encouraged the workers to convert those cells to queens





little_john said:


> FWIW - the technique of notching cells is a very old one. Anna Botsford-Comstock wrote about doing this back in 1905, although she recommended culling the larvae in the two cells directly below the target cell, as well as removing the target cell's lower wall. I did once try replicating her technique, but the bees ignored my efforts



In Sam Comforts OB hive trials notching didn't reliability direct the bees to create cells around 1s instar larva, witch is why its wasn't used in the (link post 10) SARE studies

I am glad you feel you got your moneys worth out of the book
I haven't read it, but what I have seen of mels work it looks like the basics in a shiny wrapper and fancy labels like (starter fnisher cellbuilder) to make the user feel they are doing more then just spliting...


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