# Accepting each others beekeeping methods: my first year perspective



## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

As I enter my first late-fall as a hobbyist keeper of bees I decided to look back at what I've observed as I try to learn as much as I can. And what I've seen can be quite ugly. I have seen conventional beekeepers bashing the treatment free communities; accusing them of being animal abusers and unscientific clueless hippies. I have seen the TF beekeepers accusing conventional beekeepers of poisoning bees and honey with mite treatments and encouraging the survival of a weakened gene pool.

I say, enough! I don't think it's a stretch to say that most beekeepers care about the well being of their stock. Whether they are TF or not. It's good to have different views, but some of the name calling and finger pointing that comes out of some of these posts is just unnecessary.

I spent a year doing research before investing in my first hives. I've learned from books, hands on with local beekeepers, and gone through online resources and forums like these. I've met with beekeepers who used treatment and those who don't. I, personally, have made an educated decision to practice TF methods but I still highly respect the methods my peers who do treat. My peers who treat are also respectful of my decision not to and still offer their support where it does not conflict with my own methods. I would like to see more of that in the online community.

As we enter 2017, I can only hope we can stop blaming each other and instead appreciate the different approaches and understand that we all care about and want the best for our bees.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I learned civilized behavior from squarepeg and Michael Bush.

And when it´s too much I shut down the PC.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

Yes, civility is a must in many aspects of life. It's unfortunate that this was my first impression of the beekeeping world. I am in my 30's and a product of the internet world but I yearn for a time when I could learn beekeeping (or other things for that matter) without a barrage of conflicting information. Yes, it's great that we have so much research (and anecdotes) right at our fingertips. But I think this is nearing a tipping point where, like you said SiWolKe, we "shut down the PC".

Again, it's unfortunate because I like the idea of the beesource community as a place of supporting beekeeping methods. Not degrading them.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Well, grantsbees, you must know that 2 years ago I was such a tf enthusiast I was not able to accept other opinions.
My mistake was to use all forums here.

Now I´m moderator of my own forum, where tf and treating beekeepers work together with the aim to go tf.
Some of them will never stop treating their production hives but will try to go tf at a separate bee yard, which to me is a great success.

The world`s trend is to "Trump" our discussions ( sorry you american people, we will be uncivilized next year, too, with the AFD).

If you want to be treated in a more civilized way, look for the right community and be an example yourself.
:gh:


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Still, i´m a hothead, very determined, and have my attitude and opinions.
Nothing to be ashamed about!
Some tf beekeepers are not very happy with me!

Look at the bright side, GB


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

There is a fine line between preaching and bashing. I'm all for a little preaching as long as the message focuses on the positive.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

All messages are not positive and all are not negative. There has to be some balance to what is said. I have not treated for mites in any way since the end of 2004. This is my 12th full year of no treatments.

I had more problems this year with hive beetles than ever before. I found out that there are resistance mechanisms for hive beetles and have a couple of queens with very good resistance to breed from.

I saw more wax moths this year than I have ever seen before. A beekeeper in the area must have let his bees collapse. There were hundreds of thousands of them in this area. My bees were successful at fending them off.

This area experienced a fall drought worse 
than I've ever seen before including 1988 which was the previous worst. My bees responded by cutting cluster size to the smallest I've seen for winter. Most of them have a very tight cluster that is about softball size or a tad larger. This is worrisome, but I am confident the bees know what they are doing and will come out next spring in good shape.

There is a reason the TF forum is heavily moderated and has specific rules to protect those who post.

One beekeeper made a point of posting that he didn't want my treatment free bees within 7 miles of his treated colonies. I replied that he was roughly 700 miles from where I live and that was about far enough to keep his mite bombs away from my treatment free bees with their low to very low mite load. There is a lot of truth to this statement. Treated bees develop high mite loads in the fall and can cause mite loads on treatment free bees to increase rapidly through horizontal transfer. I am fortunate to live in an area where most beekeepers are treatment free.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

Fusion_power said:


> One beekeeper made a point of posting that he didn't want my treatment free bees within 7 miles of his treated colonies. I replied that he was roughly 700 miles from where I live and that was about far enough to keep his mite bombs away from my treatment free bees with their low to very low mite load.


I would say that is on the milder side of what I have seen. Something like that I could almost laugh off. It's when people start saying that what you are doing is bad husbandry, animal abuse, based on no significant evidence and that makes you a terrible beekeeper. Or better yet, don't even consider yourself a beekeeper.

Stuff like that is just counter productive.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

For me, I don't see why people take such a dogmatic approach either way. The main thing I've learned is that you need to see what your area and bees can tolerate and then start making adjustments from there. I guess for me, TF is something you work towards, something you achieve along the way of learning about bees, their diseases, and how to manage them properly. You don't just get some bees, decide you're a TF beekeeper then proceed to ignore or deny the existence of varroa then blame the demise of your hive on wax moth, GMO's, CCD, neonics, but in no way was it related to varroa because you never noticed any mite issues in spring and summer.....

That being said, I think I'll set up a sticky if Barry lets me on my little project of finding some resistance and stabilizing it in a breeding population of bees to produce somewhat stable F1's that are truly mite resistant on a genetic level in an area with very high pressure and density of commercially managed bees.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

Who gives a rip. Be what you want to be. I dont have a problem with TF RESPONSIBLE beekeepers. 
I was however asked to come look at some bees in trouble with a new beekeeper that were started from packages. I did an alcohol wash. Full of mites. I told him I could swing by and hit them with OAV for a quick knockdown and for him to order some Apivar. You would have thought I told him to set fire to the hive. "He was a TF beekeeper". Organic was another word he threw around. 
I tried to help him understand that his methods were not working. That where he bought the packages from were probably bees that had been treated. That he should get with someone that was being treatment free for several years and start with those bees. Even then where he is located he is surrounded by other beekeepers doing who knows what. 
This man was willing to let the hive die rather than put in a chemical. And should we call him a beekeeper? I call him a bee killer. 
I offered to reimburse him for those bees and take them off his hands if he would go find a real TF mentor. Not a chance he was going to let me treat those bees by purchasing them. "if I sold them to you, you would just treat them". 
I am glad for the TF beekeepers out there that are practical. I dont like buying chemical. I would love to not have the expense in chemical and labor. However, I have too much invested to take a chance at this time.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

Hillbillybees, What exactly was he expecting you to do?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

grantsbees said:


> As I enter my first late-fall as a hobbyist keeper of bees I decided to look back at what I've observed as I try to learn as much as I can. And what I've seen can be quite ugly. I have seen conventional beekeepers bashing the treatment free communities; accusing them of being animal abusers and unscientific clueless hippies. I have seen the TF beekeepers accusing conventional beekeepers of poisoning bees and honey with mite treatments and encouraging the survival of a weakened gene pool.
> 
> I say, enough! I don't think it's a stretch to say that most beekeepers care about the well being of their stock. Whether they are TF or not. It's good to have different views, but some of the name calling and finger pointing that comes out of some of these posts is just unnecessary.
> 
> ...


This post to start this thread is nothing more than a stick to stir up a pot of discontent, the very discontent you say you abhor. So why did you post it? Nothing to share as far as your beekeeping management and success (or failure), no questions asked about beekeeping practices, no answers given for those who may be seeking answers. You are one of the very posters that cause the dissent and discontent.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I think some of what you see involves the pitfalls of online communication. There are times when forms of non-verbal communication could completely change the tone of a conversation. There are also people who find themselves suddenly emboldened when the conversation doesn't require sitting in front of a fellow human being and treating them as such.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If it is for the sake of discussion then I don't see anything wrong with this post. Whether or not it is
a tf operation is only our preference. It depends on how much stress a beekeeper can take when
seeing the bees infested with the mites and DWVs on each new hatch cycle. I did a little bee experiment
this season by making a mite bomb on purpose. Now all the big fat winter bees are thriving with minimal
mites 1-2 per inspection. Luckily, the mite bomb hive is still surviving with 1-8 mites per inspection. Still I
will let this experiment continue until the Spring time to see the result. It is a good feeling to see many
big fat healthy winter bees thriving again. The mites will be here to stay for sure. If they don't originate from
my hives then they will pick up from outside somewhere. The only way is to manage them so that you will have
some bees to keep, hopefully. This coming year will be my best year ever yet now that the mites are finally under control.
As long as you still have bees then you are still a beekeeper!


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

RayMarler said:


> This post to start this thread is nothing more than a stick to stir up a pot of discontent, the very discontent you say you abhor. So why did you post it? Nothing to share as far as your beekeeping management and success (or failure), no questions asked about beekeeping practices, no answers given for those who may be seeking answers. You are one of the very posters that cause the dissent and discontent.


oh please!


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

The point I'm trying to make is that it's extremely difficult for new beekeepers to choose treatment free or not when they are performing research on forums where the views are so extreme in both preferences that it puts the newbee in the position of "I'm a terrible beekeeper if I choose x". I would think both schools of thought want to welcome more new beekeepers into the field to learn about these amazing creatures and maybe even go into the honeybee product business.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Part of being a beekeeper is dealing with other beekeepers and "picking their brains". Careful tho because they eventually want to pick yours. 
It's easy to wear your methodology on your shoulder after you've had some success. Have been guilty of that too.
The bees have a way of humbling a beekeeper though.

The main thing is to have fun messin' with bugs imo. If people don't like how you raise your bugs then...

And then there are the honey buyers. It did not take me long to realize that me going to club meetings and spilling my guts on my management practices might somehow affect sales. One day another beekeeper wanted some honey. After that one picked my brain for 90 minutes+ over a $5 honey sale my whole yack yack about bees ended. 

Some people want to believe that honeybees are zero maintenance free-range wild things so I let them.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

grant, i believe ray's point was that arguing about arguing is still arguing, and i tend to agree.

those looking for a tf kumbaya experience may want to consider sol's forum or facebook page where dissenting views are not allowed.

from my perspective the tone and quality of exchange is much improved compared to when i first joined the forum. from what i have heard from some of the longer timers it was even worse before that. shoot, there hasn't been a deleted post in the tf subforum for over 100 days.

seriously, the number of squeaky wheels on either side of the approach has dwindled down to less than a handful. the discussions have become more centered on ground truthing and are less driven by trying to win converts to this way or that.

with respect to a newbee trying to formulate an approach based on the diverse experiences shared here from all sorts of beekeepers scattered across the four corners of the globe, i say heaven help them.

i have consistently put forth that the best thing for a beginner to do is to seek out and ascertain what is going on with the experienced beekeepers in their own neck of the woods, at least to glean a jumping in point from which to deviate from if so inclined.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

Well said squarepeg. I've read your posts and you are always thorough and even toned. I'm definitely not shunning dissenting views. I thought I covered that earlier 

You may be, and I hope you are, right that the tone has become more tolerant. I appreciate everyone's input today. Kumbaya!


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I believe everyone should perform their own experiments. Set up a TF yard and a conventional one, and observe the differences.


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## Aroc (May 18, 2016)

Social media has allowed us to be very uncivil. There are things said on social media that would never be said face to face. 

It's also very easy to be misunderstood on a post. I've had that happen first hand. It's so very important to remember these things.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I believe in the "ignore" option. It can be your friend.


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## Aroc (May 18, 2016)

Duplicate post.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

grantsbees said:


> The point I'm trying to make is that it's extremely difficult for new beekeepers to choose treatment free or not when they are performing research on forums where the views are so extreme in both preferences that it puts the newbee in the position of "I'm a terrible beekeeper if I choose x". I would think both schools of thought want to welcome more new beekeepers into the field to learn about these amazing creatures and maybe even go into the honeybee product business.


It *should* be difficult to make choices! There are many facets to examine and weigh in proper context. Conditions are wildly different, place to place and personal philosophy often puts a major modifying factor upon all these others. 

I have spoken to many people who are "thinking about beekeeping" but appear to have absorbed mostly media hype. I suspect that in a lot of cases beekeeping may not meet their expectations or be a positive experience for bees either.

Squarepeg's post #18 covers a lot of good territory.

Some Greek philosopher supposedly said "We argue, not for triumph one over the other, but that by discussion we may arrive at a more perfect truth".


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> i have consistently put forth that the best thing for a beginner to do is to seek out and ascertain what is going on with the experienced beekeepers in their own neck of the woods, at least to glean a jumping in point from which to deviate from if so inclined.


Many folks including myself are predisposed in one direction or another. Some folks are prone to cull and others to coddle. There is nothing wrong with other folks choosing either approach as far as I'm concerned. There really are ways to improve your breed stock and ways to make honey using either approach. It's a little like organic gardening or rotational grazing for cattle or free range for chickens. What is likely to fail is using half measures with either approach. For me, as a newcomer I would pick an approach consistent with my leanings, study that approach, and figure out how to make it work in my situation. If it couldn't be done, I'd find another adventure. Cheers,


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> i have consistently put forth that the best thing for a beginner to do is to seek out and ascertain what is going on with the experienced beekeepers in their own neck of the woods, at least to glean a jumping in point from which to deviate from if so inclined.


I did that and it was the most terrible experience. Better for me to have dead hives from my newbie´s ignorance than from wrong mentoring, leaving me helpless and without learning the right managements! The only thing i learned in my first year was to treat and exploit!
Two dead hives were the results! At least the losses I have now are my responsibility.

And i knew better, but thought I was not in the position to express my own point of view.

The problem is, as a newbie you don´t question the managements of an experienced beekeeper and they don´t want to put up with a skeptical pupil. I had 3 mentors and three different approaches, none of them I am able to use at my location!
To deviate from this is not easy for most newcomers. Most experienced beekeepers are very autocratic characters and desert you the moment you become inconvenient.



> those looking for a tf kumbaya experience may want to consider sol's forum or facebook page where dissenting views are not allowed.


Really? I have yet to find out if it was a mistake to join. Feel at home for now, but maybe I´m a fanatic myself 

No offense meant, sp.


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## grantsbees (May 9, 2016)

Riverderwent said:


> What is likely to fail is using half measures with either approach.


I agree. Being TF requires discipline and patience. And, like may have said before, is not just about doing 'nothing'


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

grantsbees said:


> You may be, and I hope you are, right that the tone has become more tolerant.


As a relative newcomer you have no idea unless you go back several years and look over those threads. Then they were consistently ugly. I haven't seen an uncivilized thread in a long time...long before you joined.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JRG13 said:


> For me, I don't see why people take such a dogmatic approach either way. The main thing I've learned is that you need to see what your area and bees can tolerate and then start making adjustments from there. I guess for me, TF is something you work towards, something you achieve along the way of learning about bees, their diseases, and how to manage them properly. You don't just get some bees, decide you're a TF beekeeper then proceed to ignore or deny the existence of varroa then blame the demise of your hive on wax moth, GMO's, CCD, neonics, but in no way was it related to varroa because you never noticed any mite issues in spring and summer.....
> .


Yup


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

I am totally treatment free until my bees are needing a little help. Yep I hate treating bees. It costs too much. Yet I find it economical considering the alternative.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> I guess for me, TF is something you work towards, something you achieve along the way of learning about bees, their diseases, and how to manage them properly.


Are there any treatment free beekeepers in your area who have been doing it for awhile? Are you able to get away from almond groves and migrated bees? Do you have sustaining feral populations? Are there government owned forest lands that are isolated from commercial bee operations?



> That being said, I think I'll set up a sticky if Barry lets me on my little project of finding some resistance and stabilizing it in a breeding population of bees to produce somewhat stable F1's that are truly mite resistant on a genetic level in an area with very high pressure and density of commercially managed bees.


If there is a way that you can take advantage of ongoing natural selection from a sustaining feral population, that may help. It may be easier to breed in desirable managed traits to a survivor bee that it is to breed in survivor traits to a managed population. Just my thoughts; I'm not there on the scene. All the best,


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Haven't heard of any TF breeders around here but there are some claiming to be in Southern Cal. I did try a few of their queens this year but they showed signs of mite pressure in fall. I tried 5 Wootens queens as well, they claim to not treat their breeders but the mites here didn't seem to notice... I've noticed some improvement from the various VSH lines I've brought in and have a few promising looking hives this year, a couple were swarms that moved in but one I suspect is a commercial bee and have done great all year, but I'm noticing some mites now and the queen was superceded in September which was a shame but the daughter seems to be doing well but I was hoping to graft off her mother next year to evaluate a fair number of daughters but such is life. 

As far as ferals go, not many around the central valley that I know of. Perhaps in the cities, but I would assume most are derived from commercial swarms or hobbyist. Our commercial bee density is very high, just around work, I know of 4 yards all within a 2 mile radius of here and there aren't a lot of big trees for bees to make homes in since most of the land is ag and farmed heavily. Where my bees are, more in the countryside, it's the same story, 3 yards less than a quarter mile away, all about 140 hives each. The whole area is similar though, can't drive more than a mile or 2 and see a bee yard wherever they can fit them in. You can find isolated spots here and there, especially in the foothills, but the main issue there is they dry up late spring and there's no water around in summer when it's 100+ degrees and fires are fairly common as well.

I've collected 10 swarms since 2012 when I started. 4 were in 2013, one in 2015, and I had 4 move in this year and one small capture. Oddly enough, all the ones I captured in 2012, the original queens made it to 2015 and 2016 but none were very mite tolerant. I still have a daughter or two off all of them. The swarm I captured last year in West Sac showed promise as I left them untreated but I just found them gone today and I know their mite pressure was getting high but I wanted to see if they would make it. I had a swarm move in next door to them this spring, that hive still seems very strong and has been untreated but the mite population is noticeable and they may need a spring treatment to keep them productive but I will probably forego and see how they do. Both of these hives are urban though, and there could be ferals around. I also got a daughter off a pol line mated there but the nuc had a very long brood break but looks like it's a strong 5 over 5 right now and was not treated but that's not saying much since it was a September queen and the nuc had no laying queen for 8 weeks prior but was given brood to raise the last 3-4 weeks before the queen cell was introduced. That is another one of the strategies I've used though, I will get daughters from the same breeder mated at my different locations to see if I can see variable performance and maybe pick up some local resistance if any is around or try to pair up possible matings. For instance, I had a few daughters mate at my house where I keep my VSH Harbo bees, the queen mother was a VP Italian VSH X pure VSH II queen, and those daughters are looking quite nice, except I ended up selling one as a nuc which I regret now as I've heard she was doing better than the rest of their hives as far as mites go. That being said, I don't really know how much the directed open mating works, but there aren't too many bees around my house so I can only hope my drones were the primary contributors to their mating.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> Both of these hives are urban though, and there could be ferals around.


To me, it sounds like you are doing as well as can be expected. I have been singularly unimpressed with bees that have been selectively bred for particular traits that are believed to contribute to survivability (such as VSH) as opposed to bees that have been selected simply because they survive. Many folks have a hard time gritting their teeth and not treating when they see levels of mites that would not be sustainable by run of the mill commercial bees. But those folks may be preventing themselves from identifying and selecting for breeding the most tolerant bees and perhaps the least virulent mites or virus strains. 

In keeping with the theme of this thread, it is easier to bear the slings and arrows of criticism than it is to withstand the urge to treat a known pest to break through a wall of pest tolerance. I do realize that that sounds like nonsense to many beekeepers, particularly those who have lived through, or watched others live through apiary collapses. But I also know that it resonates and is consistent with the experience of some fortunate beekeepers. Again just my thoughts based on what I see through my little knothole in the fence.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

I got into the game treatment free, working with Daniel Weaver, Les Crowder, and a number of very experienced treatment free beekeepers. I've made increase every year, routinely do hive consults and recently administered the in hive practical for the Apprentice Master Beekeepers exam. For the record, we do treat some of our hives, some of the time. 

For anyone with less than 2 years in, I'd have to classify "treatment free" as a philosophy rather than a method - beekeepers with less than 2 years have a false sense of security that they've got it all figured out and it's working just fine. Genetics can pull you until about there and then you'd better be well skilled in accessing queen productivity, disease, have queens readily available AND have adequate numbers from which to take your losses. 

In administering the exam, NONE of the students (1+ yrs experience required) saw any symptoms of disease, yet all the hives had DWV, some PMS and others with varroa levels that could be visually noted. I discussed my observations with the Apiary inspector and researchers and we concluded half of these hives would likely dead out. These in fact were NOT treatment free bees but commercial colonies that had apparently missed their fall treatment - but gentle and they were brought in as "teaching hives."

Our hives (BeeWeaver, Ferals, and locally mated daughters) aren't nearly as gentle and have much less of these issues and when we see it coming they get a new queen or a soft treatment.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

That's a good point on 'VSH' bred bees River. I've found it hit or miss in their daughters and when the II breeder mites out, that says something too. At the same time, I've gotten some Old Sol queens and I bought a few hives in 2013 that had queens from a Russian fellow who was supposedly TF but from what I saw, they're not even tolerant to our pressure here. And if anyone thinks I'm badmouthing anyone by throwing names out, I don't mean it to be the case, all were very decent bees in all other aspects and I will try them again at some point as sometimes it just boils down to a numbers game. Not that this is anything new either, from what I've heard from other people is about the same. They can find some good tolerant or even resistant colonies but when you start making daughters off them it rarely pans out to anything useful, basically each daughter is a coin toss or worse in terms of inheriting the trait if there is one. My approach will aim to flood as many drones as I can and incorporate II to hopefully increase chances of genetic heritability of mite resistance.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

JRG13 said:


> That's a good point on 'VSH' bred bees River. I've found it hit or miss in their daughters and when the II breeder mites out, that says something too. At the same time, I've gotten some Old Sol queens and I bought a few hives in 2013 that had queens from a Russian fellow who was supposedly TF but from what I saw, they're not even tolerant to our pressure here. And if anyone thinks I'm badmouthing anyone by throwing names out, I don't mean it to be the case, all were very decent bees in all other aspects and I will try them again at some point as sometimes it just boils down to a numbers game. Not that this is anything new either, from what I've heard from other people is about the same. They can find some good tolerant or even resistant colonies but when you start making daughters off them it rarely pans out to anything useful, basically each daughter is a coin toss or worse in terms of inheriting the trait if there is one. My approach will aim to flood as many drones as I can and incorporate II to hopefully increase chances of genetic heritability of mite resistance.



This has been my experience too. We bought a bunch of resistant queens for several years. Some were definitely better than others, but all required treating. I am definitely convinced there is more involved in successful TF than just the genetics of the queen.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Dave Burrup said:


> I am definitely convinced there is more involved in successful TF than just the genetics of the queen.


Me too.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> Our commercial bee density is very high, just around work, I know of 4 yards all within a 2 mile radius of here and there aren't a lot of big trees for bees to make homes in since most of the land is ag and farmed heavily. Where my bees are, more in the countryside, it's the same story, 3 yards less than a quarter mile away, all about 140 hives each. The whole area is similar though, can't drive more than a mile or 2 and see a bee yard wherever they can fit them in.


Respect.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Somehow my thinking is that the queen only contributed 50% of her mite
fighting genetics or ability. The drones if they were tf and not from a nearby local
bee association (most likely to be treated bees) will contribute the other 50% of their
mite fighting power. Let's say at 50% resistant when the mite pressure is higher in
Aug. - Sept. they can only fight so much while the majority of the worker bees will be the common
bees. Take the Cordovan genetics for example, the mother queen is full Cordovan and so are her 
daughters because of the recessive genes. Then the local drones are all carnis out there. When the
daughters mated with the carnis drones you will have 50/50 (Cordovan/carnis) of both. If the carnis drones have any
mite fighting chance then you have hit a jackpot. If not then this hive will not have any resistance traits because
neither parent will have it. However, if you incorporated some resistant traits from the Italians drones into this
equation then the outcome might be different perhaps pushing the might fighting ability to 75% which is a lot greater
than the 50% with the local carnis drones. Now the question is which hives will carry this resistant traits so that their
drones can goto the local DCAs. With each subsequent open mating for the next daughters generation, the resistant drones must be there in order to sustain this bee operation going tf. A potential tf Cordovan queen that might carry the resistant genes. Further evaluation will tell in next season.


A potential tf Cordovan queen:


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

It is more complicated than that. Hygienic behavior is present in about 1 percent of the bee population. For a colony to highly express hygienic behavior, 75% of the bees have to carry two recessive genes. Given 1% have it to start with and with random mating only 1 colony in several thousand will fully express hygienic traits. Mite resistance involves several more genes making the odds even higher. At least one trait involved seems to be enhanced sense of smell. This may be tied to anatomical changes in sensors on the bee's antennae. The level of selection pressure has to be very high to concentrate multiple genes.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> I am definitely convinced there is more involved in successful TF than just the genetics of the queen.


Sure is when there are people who keep local mutts without treating their colonies for 4-5 years and who are not isolated from other`s drones.



> At least one trait involved seems to be enhanced sense of smell.


It would be interesting to see how much the ability to smell is influenced by treatments, like thymol for example.
Do you know something about this, dar?


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## Redhawk (Jun 7, 2016)

As a newbee, I had de died before hand that I wanted to start tf because that is my life style in general. As such, I can't really say that the discussions here on the forum are that drastic that I would ask for a more civilized approach. i must admit, I'm not on here every day. Maybe I'm missing something. But I've been busy working with local Beekeepers to strengthen my stewardship to my bees. I worked with a 4th generation keep last weekend. Learned a lot. Worked with a treatment keep the week before. Learned a lot. By working with all good local keeps, I'm learning that that we all are reaching for the same brass ring. On here, I see some that stand firm in their chosen methodology, some much firmer than others. But I haven't seen any real head bashing going on. I think Barry has done a great job with monitoring & have only seen a couple instances where a posted reply had been deleted because of inappropriate content.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> It is more complicated than that. Hygienic behavior is present in about 1 percent of the bee population....



I'm looking at per hive monitoring and selection. Of course, the more hives you have the better for your
selection. Then there are other hygienic behaviors like allogrooming that my bees have here. The mite biting bees are consider as
a form of hygienic though in a different way to get rid of the pests. So it is not limited to the genetic factors but also the behavior factor too. And if some of these behaviors the bees can learn from each others then I wonder at what age or stage in a young bee's life that it will begin to learn? If the allogrooming behavior can be learn by the bees then I wonder if moving the frame of bees into a less hygienic hive will enable everybody to learn as well. Many more future little bee experiment need to be done in order to find out.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

well... I must say, that I'm often seen as controversial in TF-T discussions...
I write what I think (many people see that as virtue, and many as flaw) and if someone calls me "eco-criminal" for not treating bees I call him "shortsighted" for not seeing the bigger picture.
I'm sorry if that offends someone, but if I choose my path (and have problems because of treating neighbour apiaries), and somebody is calling me "names" because he thinks that his point is greater than mine, I have no patience with that. I don't go to treating forums with my reason, I only stick to TF forums or "natural beekeeping" forums. But still treating beekeepers come there and try to prove I know nothing about bees and beekeeping, because I have no or less honey (I practice "expansion model beekeeping" so I have minimum or no honey for now) or my bees die (I have to start my TF apiary with bees they bred for 36 years... so they die). Of course I am the reason they all have to use chemicals - but I don't treat bees for 3 years, and they use more and more chemicals for 36 years now! 

What is proven by scientists and observed by beekeepers is that today bees die without treatments within a year or max two years, when in the 80's (when varroa came to Poland) they died in their 4th year since infestation (rarely earlier). At least that's how it has been in Poland. Bees lived then with 7000 mite load because they were healthy and well balanced (Yes, I know: they mostly died in the next year after that point in infestation), and now they die with 2000 mites in the colony. Beekeepers rarely want to discuss that. They discuss only how much honey they can have per hive, and which bee is more productive. 

I respect if somebody has his/hers reason for treating (no matter what this reason is - if it is reasonable), and I respect his/hers decision for treating. I don't respect ignorance. and I want respect for my decisions as well. I don't criticise treating in treating-forums. I expect the same. And if beekeepers want to criticise TF in TF forums - let it be constructive, or else I see that as "trolling" and "ignorance"...

I know thats not conciliatory position, but that's how I see that problem.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Seems to me there are too many paths to become a tf beekeeper.

- Commercial tf which is commercial old school beekeeping without treating.
- Natural beekeeping which is what we do, BFP, or try to do. 
- Those who do no managements at all 

And there is not much respect and tolerance between those three again.

To work with bees like it was done the last 30 years but without treatments like it it done in the USA or some tf profs all around the world do ( with more or less success) is not possible for me. The bees are not healthy enough this way, the hives not isolated enough, no ferals present.
So it is necessary to do beekeeping in a much more natural way and use every possibility of management in this direction even if it means no harvesting.

It´s not a question of profit in honey production anymore here.
There is no profit if you have to spend so much money on treatments and can't get a good price for the honey.
It´s a question of having bees left to pollinate the crops.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

grantsbees said:


> I decided to look back at what I've observed as I try to learn as much as I can. And what I've seen can be quite ugly.


Not everybody finds the internet so ugly, some ride the storms, and take the good. Check this -

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332363-Thanks-to-Beesource


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I have some problems with false equivalencies myself. The disasters that beekeeping has inflicted on itself (accidental importation and spread of new pests and diseases) are tied to attitudes and business models. Failures have been met with mitigation (treating) instead of a general change of practice/thinking. So we can expect new challenges on an ongoing basis.

So some points based on general scientific understanding need to be made over and over again. Science shouldn't stop at what chemical is the best at killing mites. 

There are some who find TF impossible because of incredible mite and disease pressure. This is an artificial situation created by collective cultural practice of beekeepers in that area. I wouldn't keep bees there. (not speaking of areas where a challenge is new, devastating, without opportunity for adaptation).


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I have some problems with false equivalencies myself. The disasters that beekeeping has inflicted on itself (accidental importation and spread of new pests and diseases) are tied to attitudes and business models. Failures have been met with mitigation (treating) instead of a general change of practice/thinking. So we can expect new challenges on an ongoing basis.

So some points based on general scientific understanding need to be made over and over again. Science shouldn't stop at what chemical is the best at killing mites. 

There are some who find TF impossible because of incredible mite and disease pressure. This is an artificial situation created by collective cultural practice of beekeepers in that area. I wouldn't keep bees there. (not speaking of areas where a challenge is new, devastating, without opportunity for adaptation).


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## costigaj (Oct 28, 2015)

I am completing my first year. I'm thankful for both communities. 

I am thankful to the TF community because they have taken the time to learn about bees and their maladies at a different level than the more conventional community. I've learned quite a bit from them. 

Likewise, I've learned the does and don'ts of dealing with issues of disease or parasites from the conventional community. 

I think both communities are somewhat guilty of overstating their positions without sufficiently explaining the foundations of their philosophies. 

Where I think the TF community can do a better job is explaining how they rely on numerical superiority to make their system work. I think it's hard to embrace TF if you are a backyard keeper with one or two hives. Not having adequate numbers of resources to reinforce or bolster your hives prevents the method from really working. In TF there is an acceptable level of loss expected and to some degree, even desired to move the natural selection process forward. Obviously, The more hives you have to work with, the easier it is to recover and move forward.

Likewise, I cringe when I hear people in the conventional community say they simply treat, under the assumption there is an issue whether you see it or not. I think this does a disservice to the community and the bees themselves. I think history has shown the overuse of anything never works out well. 

I am thankful for people like Randy Oliver and his supporters for the research he has done. I think it's helped both communities. 

I can say that I've learned as much from Michael Bush as I have from Solomon Parker, as I have from Mike Palmer, as I have from the Fat Beeman, et al.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> I think it's hard to embrace TF if you are a backyard keeper with one or two hives. Not having adequate numbers of resources to reinforce or bolster your hives prevents the method from really working.


That´s the reason why I started my first workshop.
Action instead of whining.:gh:
My mother in law´s garage is my working place for now.
















And now there are 3 more beekeepers in my area trying tf and we will have some 30 hives among us so whoever has 100% losses will have new start hives in future.
And we will be more people, regress our bees and multiply our colonies.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

SiWolKe said:


> And now there are 3 more beekeepers in my area trying tf and we will have some 30 hives among us so whoever has 100% losses will have new start hives in future.


:thumbsup:

i believe this is a very good strategy sibylle, especially considering how the regulations and absence of ferals make tf difficult at your location. hopefully you will be able to propagate many new colonies from the best of your survivors. good luck and thanks for keeping us posted.


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

I am gkad to be able tolearn from synthesize information from both camps.

I would be incredible to be treatment free as a newbie. btdt and failed. I treated first time this.past fall. was grateful to have and easy to use nearly fool proof organic option.

I decided for now I am okay with the organic option while I learnore about keeping the colonies alive and managing them. I will later explore ipm and tf options. 

until then I am sure treating in the knick of time saved my apiary.

moving toward sustainability with nucs is my goal this year. perhaps I will add some tf methods to part of.the hives for next year.

I dont see where it has to be an all or nothing take sides issue.

had people not been experimenting with treatments I woukd not have organic treatments available.

had people not been working on tf and ipm I would not know to work toward a sustainable apiary and reduce the disease and parasite pressure in my yard.

it does not have to be all or nothing.


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## becsbeehive (Oct 29, 2016)

An interesting read. Thanks


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## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

Treatment Free - 4 years ago I was absolutely convinced that if I was going to keep bees it would be TF. Little did I know that I needed to learn how keep bees before I worried about trying to be as TF as I'd like to be. I lost 2 of 2 the first year, 6 of 8 the 2nd year, 9 0f 12 the 3rd year. I learned a lot about keeping bees. A year ago I decided to dig into everything I could find to read, spent weeks on the web studying greats of beekeeping, joined three state associations and studied all the monthly magazines, went to several club field days. My long term goals are still the same - to someday have the genetics, knowledge, and equipment to produce the best possible natural product that I can. Every year stepping toward that goal as the current environment evolves. 
I am now doing timely mite counts- treating anything with mite counts over the safe thresholds- with Apiguard or Oxalic acid, doing some of Mel Dissoelkoens broodbreaks and Nuc buiding.
So far this year 22 of 23 doing great.
Where is that line between natural products and treatment free and why is there a line at all? I believe that the honey and wax that I produce this year will be the best possible quality that can be produced profitably in todays environment. 
I'm going to label my honey this year as produced with all natural products. I'll bet it'll be as delicious as any in the country.
Have a safe and tasty honey season!


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