# No smoke seems better!



## bmcmahon (Apr 23, 2010)

I have no first hand experience with it, but I have read that bees like humans can be very grumpy at times and they can get very defensive when they have honey stores built up. I'd recommend following the expert advice regarding smoking the bees before entering the hive and ensuring the smoker stays lit and available during hive inspections.


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## MSUbeeman (Aug 14, 2009)

I heard it described best the other day "Smoking bees is the difference between someone knocking before coming into your house or just kicking in the door", now which way would you be more receptive.


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## mothergoosemagic (Feb 26, 2010)

Like a good, compliant new beek, I acquired a smoker last year. I've used it exactly twice, and not at all this year. I have more patience handling the frames than trying to keep the stupid thing lit.

I did my first big inspection on Monday (hint: nice, sunny day) with just a sugar spritzer at hand, and I didn't need to use that either. I *ALWAYS* work my bees from behind, go slowly & smoothly, and try to disrupt their work as little as possible. I had exactly two bees fly up & buzz me, and one returned almost immediately to the hive. The other one left a few minutes later. The rest of the hive never even noticed I was there.

I can see using the smoker if they start getting consistently aggressive, but for right now, I'm leaving it on the shelf.


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## mothergoosemagic (Feb 26, 2010)

MSUbeeman said:


> I heard it described best the other day "Smoking bees is the difference between someone knocking before coming into your house or just kicking in the door", now which way would you be more receptive.


I like to think of myself as a well trained servant who comes quietly into the room, tidies up, and the gentry never even notices my presence.


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## bmcmahon (Apr 23, 2010)

mothergoosemagic said:


> I like to think of myself as a well trained servant who comes quietly into the room, tidies up, and the gentry never even notices my presence.


Lifting the hive top is like opening the drawn curtains in the room. Examining the frames is like dangling the guests out the newly opened window. They certainly notice that you are there. 

The question then is what is their mood as you go about your business? Hopefully they remain quite calm. Should any of the bees release an alarm pheromone there is no smoke to block that communication to the other bees. And with the smoker unlit and back on the shelf there is nothing to be done to change that situation.

I wish you luck but I don't recommend that any newcomers practice what you are preaching.


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## mothergoosemagic (Feb 26, 2010)

Point taken. If the girls seem the least grumpy, I have no objections to using the smoker. I'd just rather not if I don't have to. I've seen how they react with & without smoke, and they just seem less agitated without--for now.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

Calm hives are calm hives...with or without smoke.
Hot hives are hot hives...with or without smoke. 

My calm hives remain calm after opening them. Sure there's always a couple of "hot heads" in the group. But otherwise they're fine without smoke...as long as I am deliberate in my movement. 

I just requeened a hot hive cause I was so sick of the girls following me back to the car. 

So, all this to say that I am going smokeless alot these days...but I keep the smoker in the vehicle just in case!


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## bmcmahon (Apr 23, 2010)

My opinions are mostly formed from what I have read in books. My observations as a beekeeper have only been since installing my first colony on April 17th. 

That being said, I think there is a balance to be struck between the truth you have observed about the bees negative reaction to smoke and the recommendation that the books put forth about never going to a hive without a lit smoker.

I think Kim Flottum, in his book "The Backyard Beekeeper" strikes this balance. In instructing his readers on opening a colony Mr. Flottum says "Before you begin, make doubly certain your smoker is burning well, but give it a reassuring puff every few minutes, just to be sure." Sounds like he's ready to smoke the heck out of them.

He goes on to say "When everything's assembled, you're ready to puff the tiniest puff of smoke into the front door." On removing the inner cover he says "Puff a half puff or so of smoke into the center hole before you remove it." He encourages patience to let the little bit of smoke used do its thing before proceeding.

This sounds to me like good advice. Have your smoker ready and use it sparingly. Can we agree?


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## Sarepta bees (Apr 16, 2010)

I agree most with the statement " cool hives are cool hives & hot hives are hot hives". Every hive has its own temperment as far as I have learned. If I am slow and soft with my movements and the hive is queen right I like no smoke, but a hot hive is going to be hot smoke or not, I've noticed a queenless hive there is not much that is going to slow them down. Thanks for your imput.


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## Walliebee (Nov 17, 2006)

I think it is a generalization (and potentially dangerous) to say smoke, or no smoke. As already stated, a number of factors affect a hives mood. Right now, most hives are rearing lots of brood and are peaking at their Spring nectar flow. Those are busy, happy bees. Going smokeless is not a problem. 
Wait a couple of month when those hives have a huge population, no nectar flow, large stores of honey, and a hot day. There will be questions and discussions here about hot hives and aggressive bees. Being a good beek is learning the cycles of your bees, and what to expect from them. The fact that centuries of beekeepers have used smoke to manage their hives should say a lot.


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## bmcmahon (Apr 23, 2010)

Walliebee said:


> I think it is a generalization (and potentially dangerous) to say smoke, or no smoke.


So you would disagree with all the writers of books I have read (4) and most probably numerous others who make the generalization that you should always have a lit smoker when you visit a hive; that next to a veil, it is the most important tool in your arsenal?

I think this generalization should be made and made emphatically. This is Beekeeping 101. I don't particularly care if a beekeeper uses a smoker or not. But I would think there are many inexperienced beekeepers seeking advice in this forum and on such a basic issue, the advice should be resoundingly clear: don't perform a hive inspection without a lit smoker.


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## Walliebee (Nov 17, 2006)

bmcmahon said:


> So you would disagree with all the writers of books I have read (4) and most probably numerous others who make the generalization that you should always have a lit smoker when you visit a hive; that next to a veil, it is the most important tool in your arsenal?


Maybe I was not clear. I emphatically support the use of smoke every time a hive is opened. 

My point was that the hive changes as the seasons do, and those that think they do not need to smoke now, will change their mind later in the summer. To quote myself,"The fact that centuries of beekeepers have used smoke to manage their hives should say a lot."


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

It can be hard to predict ahead of time just how the bees are going to react to you so it pays to be prepared - always have it at least ready to light should you need it - and even more so - if you find yourself wishing you had your smoker - stop what you are doing and get it! I did an open hive today with 8 college students and the bees were great - I didn't mind when the smoker went out halfway through - not a big deal.

The next yard however was a different story. Eight 1 story deeps containing 4 frame nucs installed last week. I was just going to slide the inner cover back to give myself access to the division board feeder. I hadn't counted on a frame or two being propalized to the inner cover and before I knew it I was covered in angry bees. I kept going - two other hives had fastened frames to the inner cover - and by the time I was done I must have had 60+ stingers decorating my jeans. 

The smoker was in the box in my pickup. I had used the last of my fuel in the previous yard. Never again.

(To make matters worse the farmer who owns this location was cultivating a near by field while laughing and telling me that I sure had pissed those bees off - as if I didn't know. 10 minutes before I opened the first hive he had been telling me how gentle and friendly they were)


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

*"I moved slowly and to my surprise they seemed more at ease with it."*

Many years ago, in the early 1960's or so, it was unheard of to go near a colony of honey bees without protection of some kind. Today, I am also somewhat *surprised *that I can sit right by the entrances and watch their comings and goings without being stung. Is this because of 30-40 years of requeening/selection for more unagressive bees,..I don't know.

All things in moderation,.*+* be prepared,.. is my motto in regards to using the smoker or not.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I always say better safe then sorry!:doh:
I can work some hives shirtless but I don't!:scratch:


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

Why risk the time, effort, the pain and the heat? If you piss the hive off, it might be days before you can return & I just don't have the time. When I set a time to inspect the hives, that's exactly what I want to do & smoke allows me to do that on my time.

I always bring a spray bottle with syrup that seems to help keeping them boiling over.

Because of weather, I had to postpone my package-hiving a couple of days. I knew they needed some water, so I sprayed them about 3X daily. In the package, they were buzzing their heads off, but just one light spritz from the water bottle calmed the whole cluster - it works for me.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

With bees, it all depends. I often do SOME tasks without even bothering to find the smoker but if I intend to spend anything more than just a little time, they get smoked. Especially in the fall. I guess I should say that you don't need a smoker...until you need a smoker!


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Many times, beginner beekeepers have such a difficult time keeping a smoker lit that when it is lit, they have it blazing like a blast furnace. If it isn't belching fire, the smoke is still hot enough to anger the bees.

No smoke might be better than smoke like that.

If you can pick nice weather to work the hive, and in the spring with a nice nectar flow when the hive is building up, you may be able to get away with no smoke.

Later in the summer when you have several times the population, no nectar flow, etc. you may find cool smoke a much more useful tool. However, if you are still using a blast furnace smoker, the bees will still get upset.

I've heard of old timers working their bees with only a lit cigar as their smoker.

Even if you don't use the smoker, it's still good practice to have a lit smoker with you. If you get to where you can light the smoker and keep it going now, once the day comes that you do need the smoke, you're much less likely to be using a blast furnace on them. You will have nice cool smoke to puff on them.


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

"No smoke seems better!"....NO...bees without stingers would be better!


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## beekeeper1756 (Mar 20, 2010)

Interesting thoughts in this thread. I just picked up my four nucs from my mentor. We peeled apart a hive for inspection and the bees immediately went hot and dozens began to bump our veils. He put the hive back together and said "we need some smoke". He showed me how he lights his smoker and back to the hive we went. He showed me how he smoked the hot hive and it calmed them right down. He also took the time to explain the he over smoked this hive and that under normal conditions it just takes a few puffs at the entrance.

He showed me how to work a smoker for hot hives and calm hives. It was a great lesson.:thumbsup:


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

When I get into a hive and the bees are lined up between the frames, and all I see are rows of eyes watching me....to me, this means 'We need a puff of smoke.'

So for the folks who don't use smoke....what do you do when you get rows of eyes watching you? Do you close up the hive and come back another day?


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## wi_farmgirl (Dec 31, 2009)

I have my first hive, and what do I know. I do wear a jacket and hood. But I don't wear gloves and I have yet to smoke them. Here are my famous last words, I have not been stung yet either.  I'm thinking maybe I should lite that smoker, just in case. The girls have been so very calm, that I think I have a false sense of security! 
I do talk to them, while I am with them! Maybe that makes a difference!


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## Foleybees (Apr 4, 2010)

Your day will come! Especially on a cloudy or rainy day. I learned the very hard way.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Wait till fall and see how calm they are not using smoke....


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## DavidBee (Oct 15, 2009)

A timely post. I went to two of my hives yesterday after work with the intention of just checking the feeders, so I didn't have a smoker or veil. One thing led to another and before long I had decided to remove the feeders and add a box to each hive. Then it turned out that both hives had drawn comb in the feeders and were not happy about giving it up. At this point I donned a jacket and veil, but no gloves or smoker. I ended up brushing bees off of comb and, for good measure, I pulled the entrance reducers out and brushed bees off and returned them with the larger opening. This activity interrupted their routine for sure, but I really think I could have done it without a veil. Oh, I'm not getting rid of the smoker, but I now will see if I rerally need it before I employ it.
The keep I got these Russian crosses from said they were gentle, and they sure have been so far.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

"No smoke seems better!"

Sure. But I keep one handy every time I open a hive because sometimes the bees don't listen to me when I gently remind them that "Not stinging seems better."

I learned early on that making such generalizations about working with bees is silly.

Wayne


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## bmcmahon (Apr 23, 2010)

To me it is not about getting stung; we can protect ourselves from a bee's stinger. It is about stinging. 

When a worker bee stings to defend its colony that's one dead bee.

We slide hive bodies and feeders on carefully to avoid killing bees. We carefully remove and replace frames to avoid killing bees.

Using smoke avoids killing bees. It's really pretty simple.

I am trying to become a beekeeper. I am trying to avoid being a bee killer.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

alpha6 said:


> Wait till fall and see how calm they are not using smoke....


I second this statement and add that even during a flow, beautiful day, and everything seems like they should be just fine...they wont be ....and that one day will teach valuable but painful lessons. I also agree that you will kill fewer bees by properly applying smoke. Always keep it lit and get in the habit of properly using it everytime in every hive it will save you painful stings in the future. To each his own but for me we open very few hives without a little smoke, we might quick peek a lid or some other quick non-invasive task, but if were gonna have it open for any amount of time and/or start pulling frames a few puffs can make all the difference.


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

I was told to use smoke by someone who has kept bees longer than I've lived so I think I'll just do what he says  There has to be a reason for it, like all the times I've read "wait til fall" on this board. Now I hear myself telling everyone around me "wait til fall."  My smoker will be right beside me.

I also use the smoke to avoid killing bees. When I did my first inspection I found that smoker very handy for getting bees out of my way when I wanted to put my hand somewhere or put the hive cover back on or the feeder in place. Otherwise I would have squished one of the girls and I want to avoid killing as much as possible.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Read what alpha6 said a couple of times!!!!


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## The Soap Pixie (Mar 15, 2010)

Ravenseye said:


> Read what alpha6 said a couple of times!!!!


So all this security, love and beauty ends in fall. :lookout:


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