# Gardener at heart.



## Kameron (Jan 30, 2016)

I am a seasoned gardener and have decided to expand my way of thinking to include honey bees as a part of my gardening adventure. I live in the Oklahoma panhandle, so am a little concerned of the available nectar for the bees. What I'm looking to do is establish a 10 acre bee yard/garden area. What I'm trying to find out is what perennial plants I can plant to have a continuous flow of nectar throughout the entire growing season. The 10 acres would on course have native grasses, sweet clover and the such, but this area of Oklahoma is highly lacking in trees and bushes. Can anyone help to point me in the right direction to find the info I am needing to get the plot going? My bigger plans are to try to get the conservation reserve program involved on a much larger scale and try to get them to thinking more about bee habitat and wild game habitat instead of the bird population. I am due to get my first 3 colonies of bees in the next week or so. This will be my first venture into being a bee keeper. Any info will be greatly helpful!!


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

It's a noble idea to have a bee garden, but bees will easily forage out two miles in all directions to find the best nectar. So even 10 acres of Paradise may not grab much of their attention, nor supply their needs. Their foraging area is more than 2,600 acres.

But that shouldn't discourage you, just help you not expect too many of your bees to eat at home, no matter what you grow. 

There are several books on bee-plants in cultivation, but I think they are more geared to the Eastern flora than the dry lands of OK. Do you have a local bee club? That's where I'd start to work out which plants are useful for your area. Then you can grow those, and rely on the surrounding area to provide the other 85-90% of your bees' forage.

Good luck - there are honeybees everywhere, so don't give up just because your area doesn't have lush forests.

Enj.


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## Kameron (Jan 30, 2016)

I guess I should have been a little more specific on my plans. I'm trying to place my bees as far away from cultivated crops that are routinely sprayed with pesticides or the seed comes preloaded with pesticides. The biggest problem with this area of Oklahoma is that the bees would starve to death if I measly turned them loose in our countryside! Except for the sweet clover, they might be able to hit the occasional cactus bloom. I really want them to thrive not mearely survive. The idea of the "bee garden" is to guarantee that they have a continuous source of the necessities. I really don't want to have to continuously move my bees to keep them thriving because there are limited areas that I can guarantee that they won't be exposed to residual pesticides. I do have to politely disagree with you though. There are not bee everywhere. If there is any out here, they are hiding very well! As for the local bee groups, there are none. I know of 2 other, well versed, beekeepers in a 30 mile radius of me. One of them has more than 30 years of experience and is acting as our mentor! But that is the closest thing to a group that we have. I had to edit this means getting to add...thank you very much for your imput! My thought may just turn out to be a pipe dream in the end, but I'm going to study it as much as I can till I scrap it.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Well, there may not be honey bees, but there are likely to be some kind of bees - unless you live in an unusually barren part of the world. And for those wild pollinators, any flowers you provide will be a blessing.

I wasn't suggesting you move your bees around in those 2,600 plus acres. That's just how big an area a stationary hive will travel over looking for forage. So unless you are a really large landowner, your bees will leave your property and forage over territory that you don't control, every day they fly.

And 10-acres, even if it could be planted wall-to-wall with good nectar and pollen producing plants that flowered every warm day of the year, would not be sufficient to supply even a single hive (particularly without mature, flowering, trees which produce enormous quantities of nectar per square foot of ground space.) 

I am a professional horticulturist so I when I got bees I was astounded to discover how large a range they traveled to collect nectar. I figured that my years of gardening experience would make the food-production/availablity part of beekeeping the easy part. Even my large farm doesn't completely supply my bees, even though I wish it could.

I wouldn't be too terribly concerned about seed-applied pesticides. In my area corn is almost always treated with neo-nics on the seed (and fungicides, as well) and I have no issues with that (my bees are thriving even though my farm is surrounded by corn land.) Spraying which is not generally done to corn (seed-coated w/neonics replaced that) is more of a problem. But farmers are more aware than ever about bee kills, so taking steps to protect them is becoming more common. You may have sprayed cotton fields in your area, which, of course, where I am in northern NY isn't grown. Your county Ag Ext. people would be a good resource there for you. 

I am definitely not trying to discourage you from planting whatever flowers you can, just trying to adjust your expectations that it can provide enough "safe" forage for even a single colony. Your bees will range out far beyond your property, no matter how densely planted that 10-acres is. It is very common for new beekeepers to go to a lot of trouble to make bee plantings only to see their bees largely ignore them to find their needs elsewhere.

If you truly live in an area where there is no other natural nectar and pollen sources, then perhaps honey bees are not a good choice. Try to visit the apiary of the long-time beekeeper and pay close attention to what is growing for a couple of miles around it. (Unless he is a migratory operation, then it doesn't matter, but that fact alone may tell you what is, or isn't, possible near you.)

But there are native pollinators that will benefit hugely from whatever you plant. There's so much angst these days about honey bees, I think that the plight of native pollinators is often overlooked. Nobody lobbies Congress much on their behalf because they don't have a visible economic presence, even though they do a lot of pollination of food crops, and certainly they have a crucial role in maintaining the health of the local flora. Honeybees are non-native to the US.

Good luck to you! I am glad you've set your sights on thriving bees, not just surviving bees. That's my goal, too.

Enj.


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## Kameron (Jan 30, 2016)

That was a well written answer! We do have native pollinators in our area and even an occasional bumble bee. The land is not completely barren but is either large areas of grass, which I hear produces more than sufficient pollen, or is large areas of cultivated corn, cotton or milo fields. All three of the major crops grown out here are heavily sprayed or coated seeds at planting. I heard the research was showing that colony collapse disorder was related to the residual pesticides that are used in the coating of the seeds. We have spent a large chunk of money to get set up to house our bees and don't want to just see them die out because of where weren't thinking through our placement of the bees.
We have visited with the other beekeepers, gone to their yards, have even helped him go through his hives. Here's his situation...he lives in a town of 20,000 people, he keeps 4-6 hives there at his house in town. His job situation has changed here in the last year, so he is planning on building back up to 100+colonies. Most of his colonies will end up being migratory due to the nature of our area. We, on the other hand live in a town of only 700. I do have an area just on the edge of town that i planned on putting the bees. I have made a bee yard there and have worked with the property owner to plant some sweet clover in with his grazing areas. He raises sheep and was willing to allow the sweet clover knowing it would be of benefit to him at the end of the blooming season. We only have enough equipment for 3 colonies right now, but planned on expanding in the event of a swarm or for the fact that at the going rate, 1/3 of the colonies die off every year. I have talked to beekeepers all across oklahoma and everyone saw a massive die off this past winter, so I am concerned!!


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## Zombee (Mar 20, 2016)

I formerly lived on the front range of Colorado. Not much different than Oklahoma's pan handle. Flowering plants are sparse there. Also trees. You are definitely going to have to keep the sugar syrup going to get some comb drawn. But there are many plants out there we don't see they will utilize. 

Sweet clover is a good idea. Just remember it is bi-annual so be sure to spread some seed next year too.

I now live in a very lush area in KY. But until I got my bees started here I rarely saw honey bees. So much so that my plum trees and apple trees don't produce fruit. But I see now the blackberry crop is going to be exponentially larger this year. Hopefully same is true with apples next year. Point is that perhaps your hives will benefit the area. I'd sure like to think so.

I wish you success.


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## Kameron (Jan 30, 2016)

I firmly believe that the bees will be of benefit to my area!! Last year, we had record rainfall in our area, but prior to that, we had gone through a 15 year drought. The sweet clover has exploded this year and we are continuing to get timely rains. I'm hoping that with the bees help, the sweet clover will continue to reseed itself once I get it established. I am considering planting some buckwheat this fall as well. I was about to say something to the extent of "why keep bees if you have to feed them year round", but quickly remembered that we have had to feed our cattle year round for 15 years. Sugar is considerably cheaper than hay and corn!!


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

The beekeeper that keeps his bees near a town of 20,000 people is getting his nectar from the plantings in their yards. Urban bees in big cities with no wild areas do surprisingly well just from small garden patches, but remember that means they visit thousands of homes to do that. In a small town of 700 there will not be the same resources.

Sweet clover is a fine nectar plant, but it isn't a reliable source for the entire foraging year. Bees need successive waves of flowers from earliest spring onward. Buckwheat only fuels them for a week or two. You can do succession planting of something like buckwheat, but each time you'd have to plant an acre or more per hive. And then there are the horticultural issues related to temp, day length and moisture needed to germinate the seed, so even if you had the space, you couldn't just plant buckwheat every 10-14 days and expect an unbroken crop availability.

I wouldn't start with more than two colonies to begin with in order to see how much sugar syrup you have to keep on them to meet their needs. Two, not a single one, because it's better to start with more than one. Keep the third stack in reserve for expansion.

Swarms come from hives that have prospered and grown large. If you have no bees, nor good bee forage, nor other beekeepers you won't have local swarms. And in your area swarms may very well be Africanized Honey Bees (aka "killer bees") which is not something I would recommend for a beginner to mess with, although some people do keep them as honey-producing colonies. They do not sound like much fun to work with.

Finally, despite what you may have read in the popular press the problem of CCD is no longer being reported in the US. Yes, there are still tremendous losses of bees in some areas, but it's not CCD. Mites and the viral diseases they carry are killing large numbers of hives. The long-term drought conditions in the SW (notwithstanding the overabundance of rain this year) are stressing the forage resources. Cold winters in the the two previous to this past one caused heavy losses, too. Seed-applied neonics to corn are not a big problem with proper adjustment to seeders, and carriers. Aerial spraying is still an issue -and will be heightened due to spraying to prevent the Zika virus carrying mosquitoes in areas that have had a lot of rain this year. 

If you are planning on keeping bees to "save" them, I think you may be disappointed. If you hoping to keep bees for fun, and maybe some honey and to improve pollination and yield of your apple, pear, or cherry fruit trees, strawberries, melons, cucumbers and squash plants, you will be pleased with the results. But for many garden plants bees are not necessary as they are self- or wind- pollinated. (As are most grasses, BTW, so no pollen yield for bees from "pure grassland", even if you see clouds of grass pollen blowing around.) In general the more New World-origin the plant, the less likely honey bees are important to it for pollination purposes as honey bees are an imported exotic species that co-evolved with a different set of plants. There are no native honeybees, although there tons of native bee pollinators.

Enj.


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## Zombee (Mar 20, 2016)

Wow enjambres, I normally really enjoy your posts. But it seems as if you are doing everything you can to discourage Kameron from getting bees. 

Kameron, I have had bees on the Great Plains in a city and in a rural area. Both did well. Your going to really enjoy beekeeping. And you will do just fine. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Kameron, Welcome to the World Wide Webs of Beekeeping. 
I used to live in West Texas where the Mesquite provided a heavy flow. How close are they to your area or are they already there?

Alex


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Welcome!


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## Kameron (Jan 30, 2016)

Wow! I guess I hadn't been getting the notices when someone replied to the thread. Thank you all so kindly for your responses! We have gotten our bees. Purchased 3 nucs from a reputable supplier. Had to drive 600 miles round trip to get them, but it was worth the time away. Initially we placed the bees in town, as it was almost midnight when we got home with them. We have since moved them to a patch of yellow sweet clover and they are in their permanent 10 frame deeps. I am very pleased with their temperament, but a little disappointed in the quantity of bees in one of the nucs. 
As for the bees garden idea...it is still in my mind to set aside 10 acres of my family's ground to plant, plants with the bees in mind. If that means that I have to go at it alone, thenot I will. I am not looking to "save the bees" but I'm also not looking to rob them of their food either. I firmly believe in the balance of nature! The way I look at it is this...you can raise animals in the desert, but they don't thrive. You can raise a garden in the desert and it doesn't thrive. But, if you give the cattile and the garden what it needs, it will thrive in the desert. So, same goes for my bees. I plan on putting a little human effort to build an area that my bees can thrive...not just survive.


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

I have planted my yard, since we moved here, long before we got bees, with pollinator, bee, butterfly, beneficial bugs and bird friendly plants. 

If I had 10 acres to plant I would plant them, I have removed a bunch of grass putting in plants, it is fun to watch them fly around the yard. One thing the bee love is the ponds I put in, they are constantly in the bog and small fishless ponds drinking. The water source is around 75 feet from the bee hives. The small ponds are full of plants (safe landing for the bees) slow moving flow. 

Take a look as these two plants, buy the seeds on line.

F Viper's Bugloss, Blue thistle, Blue weed 
[3] Echium vulgare 
Echium vulgare is most widely known, though there are about 60 additional species. 6 8 no feral In California, spring blooming plant with repeat bloom. Fall bloom provides nectar for bees for overwintering. The most unusual feature of Echium vulgare is the protection of the nectar inside the flower from vaporization (when it’s hot) or flushing away (when it rains). It is why almost for 2 months this plant is a stable source of nectar for bees. Additionally this plant produces nectar throughout the day unlike most plants which produce nectar for a short period of time. If the bees have a good access to Echium they can collect between 12-20 lbs of nectar a day. The concentration of sugars in the nectar vary 22.6-48.3% depending on the quality of the soil, and not on the amount of rain. The honey is light amber in color and very fragrant with a pleasant taste, and does not crystallize for 9–15 months.[6] major 300 - 1,000 pounds honey/acre depending on soil. 500-2000 lbs of dark blue pollen.

and this one

, F Phacelia, Tansy Phacelia tanacetifolia Western US - One of the best spring forage sources for honeybees. Blooms 45–60 days and continuously produces nectar throughout the day. Can be seeded several times per year. Prefers three feet of topsoil. 180 - 1,500 pounds honey per acre, depending on soil quality and depth; 300-1000 pounds of pollen.[6]

Both from this list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_American_nectar_sources_for_honey_bees


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## Zombee (Mar 20, 2016)

Kameron, Congratulations on getting your bees. Enjoy!!!

Mssybee, your garden area sounds nice. Thanks for the info on Viper's Bugloss. I can see myself planting a plot of that and beyond perhaps. I found 100 grams of seed on Richter's. And perhaps I can find a bulk seller. It also has medicinal value (as a homesteader I am into that) so it is a win win. 

Rock


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

I picked up seeds from here, they came fast I bought enough to have free shipping.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-grams-2...lue-Flowers-/261854994753?hash=item3cf7c62141


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## Zombee (Mar 20, 2016)

Great price! Thanks


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## Kameron (Jan 30, 2016)

I will research those plants and see how well they will do in my area. This is the type of information I was looking for! Thank you very much for your response! We recently moved into town (3 years ago) and have taken the 3 lots that we have with our house and converted them into a garden, greenhouse and landscaped with perennial vegetables. Let's just say the mowing is not much of a chore anymore! We have all kinds of beneficial flowers and butterfly bushes scattered in our garden, BUT have a 4 year old son that would get into the hives if we placed them in our yard. I would love to have a similar retreat for the bees that is away from civilization. If those plants have medicinal uses, I will be considered them for sure!!


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## Kameron (Jan 30, 2016)

The link you added for the blooming and nectar info was awesome! I made sure and bookmarked it for future reference.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

My recommendation would be to determine when the flow and dearth of nectar is. Although 10 acres may not be huge it would be the ‘golden ticket’ if planted with something that is blooming in mass when nothing else is. In my area the end of summer, there is nothing but tansey, queens anns lace and daisy in the end of summer. There are some plants like lavenders and butterfly bushes and herbs that actually hum with the bee activity because it is all that is available. Look into some herbs, they usually flower well and grow on the concrete. Example: I would never drink a warm cup of smelly water normally but would fight for it in a desert like you described (a little could go a long ways)


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## Kameron (Jan 30, 2016)

We have herbs in our garden that are trying to take over their beds. A good example is our lemon balm! Planted a small start last year and it is now over 3' around and there are tons of new saplings starting all around it. I will definitely take your advice! I know I can take my bees to a circle of cotton when it starts blooming, so may look into what I need blooming and when. I've caught myself getting more in tune with wind, clouds, full sun, what is blooming....it's amazing how one little insect can change your perspective on your surroundings!


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

kill that balm while you have the chance! I have been trying to for years. It got in with my rhubarb and I think it is choking it out. If I poison it around the edges it actually kills the rhubarb. a hard mat of roots I go down and just keep trying to keep it from spreading.


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