# Is there a preference for one age over the other?



## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

I hear the general rule of thumb for grafting is an egg or larvae that is 3 days or younger. 

Is it either or? Or sometimes do you prefer a 3 day old larvae to an egg, for other than the obvious that you are saving a few days by choosing the larvae?


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

*age*

from the time the egg is laid it will hatch at the end of the 3rd day 72 hours now it is a larva you need to graft before it is 24 hours old for a better queen all else being good like fed with plenty of royal jelly from young nurse bees.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I've never grafted before
can you graft an egg?
isn't it attached to the bottom of the cell?
is this not a problem?
I've heard about "spooning" the larvae up with some royal jelly, does pulling the egg loose from the cell cause a problem?

Dave


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

*eggs*

Have not try to graft eggs and yes they are attached to the bottom just a little they would not stay in your cell cup if you were to just transfer the egg, you might try the cell punch method, or get you one of the no graft units and transfer them just prior to hatching into a cell builder that has been queen less and broodless for 12 hours with feed ,pollen and plenty of young nurse bees. OR TRY THIS http://www.box.net/shared/2skvd8cg04 TAKES EXCELL


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*1st lessons in queen rearing.*

You want to graft a larvae that is under 24 hours old. Most of us prefer grafting a larvae that is under 12 hours for a high quality queen.
You can graft the older larvae. But, you will be rearing a mesomorph which is not a queen or a worker bee!
The weight of the emerging queen with all things equal is highest with young larvae. And the good part is that the queen will have more egg tubules for egg laying in both ovaries! Yes, they have been counted.
The smallest larvae are the best.

Regards,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

Does someone have pics or a link to larvae that are the appropriate age?


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

BEES4U said:


> You want to graft a larvae that is under 24 hours old. Most of us prefer grafting a larvae that is under 12 hours for a high quality queen.
> You can graft the older larvae. But, you will be rearing a mesomorph which is not a queen or a worker bee!
> The weight of the emerging queen with all things equal is highest with young larvae. And the good part is that the queen will have more egg tubules for egg laying in both ovaries! Yes, they have been counted.
> The smallest larvae are the best.
> ...


I believe mesomorph just refers to a large body, how does this make her less of a queen?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you confine a queen on an empty comb for 24 hours, release her the next day and 3 days later you look you'll see four day olds that have now hatched into larvae. These are the right age. A push in cage of #5 hardware cloth works well for this.

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/QueenConfinement5.jpg


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

ford guy writes:
I believe mesomorph just refers to a large body, how does this make her less of a queen?

bees4u answers:
the good part is that the queen will have more egg tubules for egg laying in both ovaries! Yes, they have been counted.

tecumseh fills in the blank spot:
the futher the clock runs in a young (potential queen) larvae life. from just emerged from the egg stage to 72 hours, the fewer the tubules in the new queens body. the number of tubules is a direct measure of the queens maximum /day egg laying potential.

guessing here... but it sound like you need some program so that the larvae (whether you are grafting or doing some kind of punch system) is of about a KNOWN age.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*ford guy writes:*

ford guy writes:
I believe mesomorph just refers to a large body, how does this make her less of a queen?

Mesomorph means exactly what I posted!
Ernie


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Time for some recreational reading.*

I would suggest that some of the people posting in queen rearing need to purchase a few good books on queen rearing and do some home work.
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would suggest that some of the people posting in queen rearing need to purchase a few good books on queen rearing and do some home work.

Or read them for free:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesoldbooks.htm


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

*Queen Rearing*

Thanks Mike - You sure have done a good job. I am looking forward to hearing you at HAS.

Rob Mountain


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

BEES4U said:


> I would suggest that some of the people posting in queen rearing need to purchase a few good books on queen rearing and do some home work.
> Ernie
> Lucas Apiaries


So I should go do some homework? Well, that's pretty offensive Mr. Lucas. Just so you know, I have requested a video and literature from Mrs. Spivak and will review those materials when they arrive...but when reading a book, the author is not available for questions - folks on this site are usually VERY willing to help someone like me and have no problem answering even the silliest of questions. But If you take exception to questions posted here that you already know the answer to, then why click the link? If instead of learning here you direct us to "go read a book" and "do somehomwork" then what would the website be for? Just folks with your current level of knowledge? All the new guys go away, read some books, then come back so we arent' filling your screen with silly questions?

While most folks will bend over backwards to help, I can't quite figure out this caste system with a few here, almost like we've adopted the society of the bee. So then would the website consist of people asking questions that YOU would ask? Look, did you consider that you might have more time than I do - I have 4 kids, maintain a professional license while being on active duty at Ft. Jackson and commute 120 miles a day to work. So I don't read books for now. One day, when the kids are grown...and i"m retired...(semi oretired probably) I'll take you up on your suggestion.

This website and the only other one I go to are the only source of information for me, and I and only steal away to check this website every now and then. Now Mrs. Lucas, if you have 4 kids, and have the work schedule that I do, commute 2.5 hours a day, and STILL are able to "go read a book" then I will stand down.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

ford guy writes:
So I should go do some homework? 

tecumseh replies:
well ford guy he could have been referring to anyone here... and I for one have never figured out this VIRTUAL he said-she said.. or who someone was referring to as 'some'.

this does kinda' go to show you how have conversation can become difficult when one person is operating off of one dictionary and the other person is using a completely different dictionary. perhaps it is a east coast/west cast thingee?

for myself... ask all the 'stupid' question that might come to mind. I should qualify this by saying.... the only stupid question is one that you should have asked and did not.

and lastly... thanks for your service (and if my answering your 'stupid' questions makes your service a bit smoother... I don't think that is such a high price to pay).


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

Thanks, Tecumseh - I might be too quick on the trigger...haha...I just noticed he did put a smiley face in his post, so your right, it's hard to read minds just based on posts...

I really wish I had time to do some reading ...and I know I need to. Just frustrated that I can't. So you guys are stuck with my dumb questions!! haha.


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

*Supporting Documents OR a Source*

Hey FordGuy, "listen up and take notes, I'm only going to say this once!" 

Just kidding there.

No I have to say that I'm really confused here. I looked it up in a dictionary here, and I also looked it up in dictionary.com - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Mesomorph 

I'm a little confused by the lack of any definitions that show the word's relevance or application in the entomological realm. What'd help me out is if Ernie can either give us a quote from or a link to one of his supporting documents. That'll probably clear the fog for me.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

I don't intend to step further into this "mud" but I think what Ernie was encouraging you to do was to possibly read every post that might deal with queen rearing. Get references on all the queen rearing books. The size and age that you are grafting are some of the miniscue items you will have to learn about. It is a complete system from the age of the larva, and all that goes next. Cell builders, swarm boxes, finishers, drones, mating nucs, incubators, cages, etc., etc.. You will not be able to ask enough questions. Get some books, maybe get the kids to read them on tape and listen on your commutes. As someone said, the grafting is the easiest. Do more searches on the interntet, there are all kinds of systems out there. Look at the German video's, I think they are probably the best out there. Decide on your own system. Practice, fail, learn, practice, learn and then succeed. Until you put your grafts into your cell builders you will have no clue what makes a cell builder want to build cells. Or how many bee's is a lot of nurse bee's. There are many way's to raise queen's and I would imagine that every one is slightly different from the other. Try all of them and then see what makes the most sense for you and you get the best results. Don't be afraid to fail on any of your attempts. That's what gives you the experience for the next round.


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## panubee (Nov 16, 2007)

*Need to read a few books!!!*

I think I'm the guy Ernie was referring to in his post. 

I use this website, Organic Beekeepers List, Michael's website, and several books as references. (Thanks Bjorn for the swarm book tip.) I don't think I know anywhere near enough. 

So keep telling me what I need to read, review, whatever--so I can continue to learn to be a better beekeeper.

Ford guy. From my family--Thanks for your service. We'll be down in your area next weekend. My son graduates from boot camp on Friday.


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

*Couldn't find it with my limited resources...*



Brandy said:


> ...I think what Ernie was encouraging you to do was to possibly read every post that might deal with queen rearing. Get references on all the queen rearing books...


Thanks, but that's probably outside of what I'll have time for this year. As I said, I was really only trying to find out in what context the term "Mesomorph" can be applied in entomology. The references that I found didn't really spell out what could or couldn't be a good queen. In fact I haven't yet run across an application in which the term could be used in the insect world except in Ernie's other post. I even searched beesrouce for the term, and the only other occurrance I found of it was in this other post from Ernie: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=286200&postcount=12

I did look in the glossaries and indices of what few bee books I do have and didn't find any reference to the use of this term. ("Honey Bee Biology and Beekeeping" by Dewey Caron, "Book of Bees" by Sue Hubbell, "Eyewitness Account of Early Beekeeping" by A.I. Root, "Beekeeping for Dummies" by Howland Blackiston, and "ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture" A.I. Root 1919 edition.) None of these showed use of "Mesomorph" relating to the context of insects. His other link spelled out some references but none were in-line, so I didn't know which lines in his thread came from which sources. 

I simply wanted to give Ernie a chance to shine by having him show what he meant in relating this term in this context. We're all smart enough here to realize that he's not referring to musculature as is noted in the references that I found for the term.


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

Brandy said:


> I don't intend to step further into this "mud" but I think what Ernie was encouraging you to do was to possibly read every post that might deal with queen rearing. Get references on all the queen rearing books. The size and age that you are grafting are some of the miniscue items you will have to learn about. It is a complete system from the age of the larva, and all that goes next. Cell builders, swarm boxes, finishers, drones, mating nucs, incubators, cages, etc., etc.. You will not be able to ask enough questions. Get some books, maybe get the kids to read them on tape and listen on your commutes. As someone said, the grafting is the easiest. Do more searches on the interntet, there are all kinds of systems out there. Look at the German video's, I think they are probably the best out there. Decide on your own system. Practice, fail, learn, practice, learn and then succeed. Until you put your grafts into your cell builders you will have no clue what makes a cell builder want to build cells. Or how many bee's is a lot of nurse bee's. There are many way's to raise queen's and I would imagine that every one is slightly different from the other. Try all of them and then see what makes the most sense for you and you get the best results. Don't be afraid to fail on any of your attempts. That's what gives you the experience for the next round.


wow, excellent ideas! I didn't know any queen rearing books might be available on tape, but if so that would be a dream. I watched the german videos when I had high speed (we had to drop back to dial up when the 4th was born! haha.) brandy thanks for the encouragement!


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

panubee said:


> I think I'm the guy Ernie was referring to in his post.
> 
> I use this website, Organic Beekeepers List, Michael's website, and several books as references. (Thanks Bjorn for the swarm book tip.) I don't think I know anywhere near enough.
> 
> ...


Congratulations! Hope you guys enjoyed the ceremony, I know the weather was bad!!!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Age of larvae for queens should be between just hatched and hatched 36 hours ago. Preferably not more than 12 hours ago. The bees won't, in my experience, make an egg into a queen. But they will make a larvae into a queen if it's young enough.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

michael bush writes:
The bees won't, in my experience, make an egg into a queen.

tecumseh replies:
well sure they will and they have been doing this for seveal million years. 

actually if the bees have nothing appropriate to work with they will draw out almost anything in a futile attmept to produce a queen.

I have never really attempted it myself but some queen rearing processes (I am referencing and trying to imitate one now) suggest that eggs can be used in producing queen cells.... but like I said, I have only read about these processes and have never really attempted this myself (well at least not yet).

and now back to FordGuys concern:
one advantage of using one of those automatic grafting needles is that the 'retractable' tongue is of such a width that it will limit your picking up and grafting larvae that are too large.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I often transfer eggs with the Jenter when I'm out of larvae. I've never seen them make one into a queen yet.


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> I often transfer eggs with the Jenter when I'm out of larvae. I've never seen them make one into a queen yet.


results: I transferred 12 eggs - none of them were made into a queen. (using the cell punch method.)


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> I often transfer eggs with the Jenter when I'm out of larvae. I've never seen them make one into a queen yet.


but what if the egg hatches, will the bees ignor it? none of my eggs hatched.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I use the Mann Lake (nicot) method. I've tried young larvae, and with extra spaces on my larvae transfer frame that hold the cell cups with the larvae in them, I also included a few eggs.

About half to three-fourths of the larvae are made into queen cells, and the cell cups with the eggs are left empty. I don't know what happens to the unhatched eggs. Rumor is they are cannibalized.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>none of my eggs hatched.

That's been my experience as well. They don't hatch or they get cleaned out.


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## Lucus76 (Mar 18, 2008)

BEES4U said:


> ford guy writes:
> I believe mesomorph just refers to a large body, how does this make her less of a queen?
> 
> Mesomorph means exactly what I posted!
> Ernie


Mesomorph by definition does refer to a large body, in the context of honeybees, the term has been adopted to refer to a worker with a large body.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

*Too old of larvae*

The result of grafting too old of a larvae results in an intercaste...part worker part queen. The younger the grafted larvae the better for full ovary development. As soon as the larvae begins to age and receive worker bee diet the potential for it as a quality queen diminishes.


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## IloveBees (Oct 8, 2007)

Actually this discussion brought an idea to me 

And I wonder if it will work or not

The idea is to cut the cell base ( with the egg on it ) in the age off one day egg,

Because the egg will be perpendicular and the cutting will be easier then you can stick it to a queen plastic plug in a queen rearing hive


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

With the Jenter it's easy enough or with the Hopkins method it's easy enough to do this with eggs. But the bees just remove them, in my experience.


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## IloveBees (Oct 8, 2007)

MR. Michael Bush

what are the factors controling the failure or succeed of jenter method?

in other words why the bees will remove the egg or rear it as aqueen ?

and what is the Hopkins method ?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>what are the factors controling the failure or succeed of jenter method?

Most of them are the same as any other method. The starter has to be overflowing with bees. The finisher has to be motivated to finish, meaning either queenless or the queen far enough away from the cells that they don't tear them down. The larvae have to be the right age (which is easy with a confinement cage like the Jenter has).

>in other words why the bees will remove the egg or rear it as aqueen ?

I have never gotten them to rear an egg as a queen. They always removed it. Alley and Hopkins seemed to think if you got it right as the eggs were hatching they would raise them as queens, but my timing, while quite accurate because of the confinement cage, never seemed to work.

>and what is the Hopkins method ?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshopkinsmethod.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm#hopkinsmethod


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## IloveBees (Oct 8, 2007)

sorry

what is the #5 hardware cloth ?

and where can i get it ?

thanks in advance.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>what is the #5 hardware cloth ?

Screen with five wires to the inch.

>and where can i get it ?

http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=522
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/products.asp?pcode=563


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