# Top bar spline



## aandrews (Apr 12, 2017)

At Standard Top Bars For The Beekeeper | Bee Culture, the diagram "Top Bar Hive: Top Bar Assy", can anyone explain why red oak is recommended for the spline in a white oak top bar as opposed to making the whole thing out of the same type oak? Too, are the authors correct in saying that the 3/8 in. squared inset spline is superior in shape to the V-shaped (or rounded, for that matter) bottom comb guide?


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## aandrews (Apr 12, 2017)

aandrews said:


> At Standard Top Bars For The Beekeeper | Bee Culture, the diagram "Top Bar Hive: Top Bar Assy", can anyone explain why red oak is recommended for the spline in a white oak top bar as opposed to making the whole thing out of the same type oak? Too, are the authors correct in saying that the 3/8 in. squared inset spline is superior in shape to the V-shaped (or rounded, for that matter) bottom comb guide?


Actually, I misread. It's a red oak spline in white pine. Nevermind the first part. But the shape of the comb guide is still a question.


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

Just one person's experience, but this is the same overall design that I used to build four top bar hives. When I built the top bars, though, I used primarily triangular shaped strips from my local lumber yard. As a favor, a friend also built some top bars with the strip described in the article. I have no issues with cross comb on the bars with the triangular strip while I had all kinds of issues with the red oak spline. The top bars with the strips were also a heck of a lot easier to build, too. Just my experience as obviously the vastly more experienced authors had things work out differently for them.

Kevin


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Kevinf said:


> I have no issues with cross comb on the bars with the triangular strip while I had all kinds of issues with the red oak spline. The top bars with the strips were also a heck of a lot easier to build, too. Just my experience a


that was my experience as well, I also found shorter top bars (as Marty Hardsion suggests) to have less problems and a 3/4" of so triangle was better then the full bar with ones sold by some

I never under stood this article, lets repeat the langstoth mistake of overly wide combs and make the bars hard to make...SMH


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## aandrews (Apr 12, 2017)

Kevinf said:


> Just one person's experience, but this is the same overall design that I used to build four top bar hives. When I built the top bars, though, I used primarily triangular shaped strips from my local lumber yard. As a favor, a friend also built some top bars with the strip described in the article. I have no issues with cross comb on the bars with the triangular strip while I had all kinds of issues with the red oak spline. The top bars with the strips were also a heck of a lot easier to build, too. Just my experience as obviously the vastly more experienced authors had things work out differently for them.
> 
> Kevin


"...I had all kinds of issues with the red oak spline."
Would you mind briefly describing them.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

msl said:


> that was my experience as well, I also found shorter top bars (as Marty Hardsion suggests) to have less problems and a 3/4" of so triangle was better then the full bar with ones sold by some
> 
> I never under stood this article, lets repeat the langstoth mistake of overly wide combs and make the bars hard to make...SMH


*msl* - I admire your politeness ... 

I had difficulty keeping my face straight whilst reading that article - such pretentious nonsense ! 'Copyright' on a 'Standard' Top-Bar indeed - what a load of horse-manure.

*THE WHOLE POINT* of Top-Bar hives is that they are intended to be simple and uncomplicated to make - originally for impoverished Africans with little in the way of materials, tools, and/or skills. And now some tosser wants to dictate to people how they should be made - with precise measurements, and even specifying what species of wood to use. It would be laughable, if not so potentially serious by playing on the insecurity of newcomers.

I would advise the use of cheap & cheerful pine - or whatever comes to hand. Cut your bars to an inch and one-eighth and make a few spacers out of thin plywood so that the spacing can be enlarged as required. When I ran Top-Bar I found a slot cut down the centre of each bar with popsicle sticks glued into it to provided a fine starter-strip. I never had crossed-combs. Someone on here suggested the use of molten wax rather than glue - yes, that would work well too.
I had a few bars with triangular section hardwood (found in the shed, unloved and unwanted) glued underneath them - they worked fine too.

Advice: keep the build simple, use cheap and/or readily available materials - and ignore anyone who tells you it 'must' or 'ought' to be done in a certain way.
'best
LJ


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## aandrews (Apr 12, 2017)

little_john said:


> *msl* - I admire your politeness ...
> 
> I had difficulty keeping my face straight whilst reading that article - such pretentious nonsense ! 'Copyright' on a 'Standard' Top-Bar indeed - what a load of horse-manure.
> 
> ...


Not to derail my question, but, looking for additional information on comb guide shape, I came across this:





A Better Top-Bar Hive Comb Guide / Starter Strip | Manacet


There are all sorts of top-bar hive comb guides and starter strip designs. However, only one allows bees pass over the top of the comb.



manacet.com


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

aandrews - the issues I had with the red oak spline was in their rectangular design. When I used them they would build out the comb wonky and off center (i.e. cross combing). Also, like msl, I used a 3/4" triangular strip whch did not cover the entire width of the top bar which they always build straight comb off of. I can take photos of both if you like.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Kevinf said:


> aandrews - the issues I had with the red oak spline was in their rectangular design. When I used them they would build out the comb wonky and off center (i.e. cross combing). Also, like msl, I used a 3/4" triangular strip whch did not cover the entire width of the top bar which they always build straight comb off of. I can take photos of both if you like.


Yes!
The bees have a method of priming the wood, perhaps with a film of propolis, that makes the comb adhere much better than any wax you pour on. One distinct sharp edge is far superior to a 3/8" wide plateau that has _2 edges_.


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

Kevinf said:


> Also, like msl, I used a 3/4" triangular strip whch did not cover the entire width of the top bar which they always build straight comb off


Thanks for the info and pictures. Any chance of some pictures with comb? I would be interested to see how they organise the attach, particularly if it is symmetrical around the apex of the triangle or if they wander about a bit until the cells get going.
Selwyn.


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)




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## aandrews (Apr 12, 2017)

Kevinf said:


> aandrews - the issues I had with the red oak spline was in their rectangular design. When I used them they would build out the comb wonky and off center (i.e. cross combing). Also, like msl, I used a 3/4" triangular strip whch did not cover the entire width of the top bar which they always build straight comb off of. I can take photos of both if you like.
> View attachment 63027


If it's no inconvenience, I wouldn't mind seeing them. BTW, are your top bars 1.5" wide?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Over-engineering of something that should be built from old, half-rotten fence or from straw. 
People are really looking for things to do.
Save that red oak for furniture or something of similar grade (unless insist on the aesthetics, not much counter with there, except that the bees will propolise everything anyhow).

Let me post again how I do my comb guides - a fine working solution - simple pruning twigs and irregular cut offs from a scrap pile, stapled to a bar.
Not pretty looking, but works great.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

aandrews said:


> Not to derail my question, but, looking for additional information on comb guide shape, I came across this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To this I will counter-offer a better solution, NOT mine but from a now-defunct blog of another interesting THB keeper (I wish the blog was up, I liked it).
Attached is a pic.
This very simple and cheap to implement vertical piece provides:

additional support for both beekeeper and the comb (obvious from the picture)
promotes the thru passages that bees naturally make along the vertical supports - the pass through feature - double problem solver and nothing to buy (also well presented by the same picture).
I also attached my own example that demonstrates that the pass-through feature sold for money is an artificial solution to an artificial problem.
A vertical support just makes it all to go away.
Bees naturally create passages along the vertical surfaces.


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

aandrews said:


> If it's no inconvenience, I wouldn't mind seeing them. BTW, are your top bars 1.5" wide?


Yes, my top bars are 1.5" wide and I posted photos of the two different splines above for comparison.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Ok - you wanted to know about comb attachment ? Here are a few photos which may help answer any questions ...

The first two show how bees begin building comb on a sharp edge:



















That particular top-bar was made from a triangular hardwood section, glued beneath a softwood bar (materials which were available at the time). In the second photograph you can see that the bar had been used previously. During the first time it was used, the bees kept falling off, because the surface was too smooth to get a grip on. A lick of molten wax solved that problem, but using wood with a roughened surface is a much better solution.

This shows how bees attach to a wooden starter-strip - as you can see, they've just started to build comb along the side of the wooden strip:










This is a comb with some mileage behind it (now a darker colour) - the bees have drawn comb all along the sides of the starter-strip - in this case a popsicle-stick. By now the comb is well-secured:










Here the bees have even begun depositing wax on the side of the frame top-bar - this is not unusual. (Btw, these are foundationless frames - a useful compromise between top-bars and frames with foundation).










Finally, a shot of a self-spacing Warre Top-Bar (these are 'pass-through' bars used in a vertical stack, and to my mind is by far the best of all Top-Bar formats) after the comb had been cut-off. You can see how the comb attachment has spread from the initial knife-edge attachment shown in the first two photographs - at which time the comb is very vulnerable to breakage - to become a very stable and rugged structure.










Hope this helps.

I've also uploaded a couple of files to the bottom of: http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beekxx.htm which may be of interest.
These are: *Beehive Designs for the Tropics* - this is a 1984 paper written by Geoff Townsend of the University of Guelph. It was his visiting Kenyan students who were responsible for starting the whole KTBH ball rolling ...
The other file is: *An analysis of the Kenyan Top Bar Hive in Canada* - this is an interesting, if somewhat confrontational critique of the KTBH and it's adoption by those with an eco-beekeeping agenda, contrasted against the somewhat more 'commercial' role of the Langstroth hive, with other useful designs being pretty-much ignored.

'best,
LJ


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## aandrews (Apr 12, 2017)

little_john said:


> Ok - you wanted to know about comb attachment ? Here are a few photos which may help answer any questions ...
> 
> The first two show how bees begin building comb on a sharp edge:
> 
> ...


Thx


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I have not found as good a comb attachment to triangular bars as I do with a wooden spline down the middle (but thicker than a popcycle stick). I get mine from a kit from Beeline Woodenware in MI, but just this year they changed out to a small triangular one. Guess my 350 bars are going to have to last me for a while.


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## aandrews (Apr 12, 2017)

ruthiesbees said:


> I have not found as good a comb attachment to triangular bars as I do with a wooden spline down the middle (but thicker than a popcycle stick). I get mine from a kit from Beeline Woodenware in MI, but just this year they changed out to a small triangular one. Guess my 350 bars are going to have to last me for a while.


And your splines are 3/8" wide and extend 1/4" off the top bar surface?


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

aandrews said:


> And your splines are 3/8" wide and extend 1/4" off the top bar surface?


Mine are.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> To this I will counter-offer a better solution, NOT mine but from a now-defunct blog of another interesting THB keeper (I wish the blog was up, I liked it).
> Attached is a pic.
> This very simple and cheap to implement vertical piece provides:
> 
> ...


Agree here with Greg artificial problem is created and a complicated solution offered.
A hole bored in the comb at say 5/8 near the top would do the same thing.
or use a standard lang type top bar with 3/8 space over it and then the lid.

the top bars being the inner cover is the issue. lots of ways to fix that.
Patenting a device to leave a hole at the top is somewhat over the top, IMO

GG


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

Kevinf, LJ thanks for the photos, just what I wanted to see.


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

aandrews said:


> At Standard Top Bars For The Beekeeper | Bee Culture, the diagram "Top Bar Hive: Top Bar Assy", can anyone explain why red oak is recommended for the spline in a white oak top bar as opposed to making the whole thing out of the same type oak? Too, are the authors correct in saying that the 3/8 in. squared inset spline is superior in shape to the V-shaped (or rounded, for that matter) bottom comb guide?


I can't imagine any problem with making the whole top bar out of the same material. My top bars are made entirely of pine and they seem to work quite well. My top bars also use a deep V-shape (90 degree included angle) for the comb guide. This works much better than any glued in spline in my experience. The V-shape top bar is also easy to make if you have a table saw. That being said there were some things I liked in the article. The 60 degree angle for the hive sides makes a lot of sense. I've tried steeper angles and the result is very fragile comb that is prone to cross-combing and difficult to remove without breaking. The side entrance is also a good recommendation. I don't use a landing board because snow blows over it and blocks the entrance. With the side entrance and no landing board it will never get blocked with snow and the bees seem to like it just fine. I hope that helps and good luck.


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## mcr (May 5, 2018)

I've used paint stir sticks, balsa strips, and plastic foundation from a lang. The only thing I found is that they should only stand out a 1/4 inch from the top bar. Mine would attach wax to the bottom 1/4 inch if it was 1 inch.


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