# Questions re: dwindling hive



## Donna (Jul 23, 2014)

I'm a new beekeeper and after a great start the hive swarmed mid-July. They requeened themselves and were still building up at the beginning of fall, with brood, orientation flights, etc. Recently the hive population is dwindling severely (not sure why as they seemed healthy) and I doubt the remaining bees can make it through our winter with temps in the teens. I've been feeding 3:2 syrup but they haven't taken much the past couple of weeks. However, there still are some bees flying and bringing in pollen, which is confusing to me. Is that because that's what they know to do? Or should I be hopeful because of that? 

I did a brief inspection a couple of days ago and didn't see any brood. There are several full bars of honey that I'm not sure what to do with, as well as plenty of essentially empty comb that I hope to reuse in the spring. Should I leave the honey in the hive through the winter regardless of having bees or not? I don't want to move too quickly as I've had beekeepers tell me they thought their hives were gone and then were surprised come spring, or maybe that's wishful thinking. Does the empty comb need to be put in the freezer since we will have temps below freezing during the winter?

Thanks for any advice......and your patience with a newbee's questions! Any guidance is appreciated.


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

First you need to try to ascertain why they're dwindling. Do you happen to know the race of your honeybees? Russians are known to overwinter with a much smaller cluster. Have you seen SHB, or mite count?


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## BeeGora (Oct 22, 2013)

One of my hives is doing the same thing. They completely ignore the syrup but are bringing in pollen. The dwindling is normal for this time of year. They're downsizing so that there's not so many mouths to feed over the winter. I'm going to take out most of the empty comb and put an unused bar (maybe two) behind the last bar of comb left in the hive and then the divider board behind that. I would leave whatever honey they have in there, wrap them up when winter sets in, and hope for the best. Good luck.


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## Donna (Jul 23, 2014)

Thanks for your replies...

The bees originally were a mix of Italians and Carniolans that I got from a local beekeeper. No SHB and I confess I haven't done a mite count since they were doing so well. I've never seen mites on the bottom of the hive, or on any of the bees (don't laugh too hard) when observing them. I've always been concerned that they didn't have time to build up sufficient numbers after they swarmed/requeened.

Any recommendations for best methods of storing comb? There are lots of bars of nice comb that could be used in the spring by these bees or new ones if it comes to that.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Don't do anything too quickly. From the OP, it sounds like you still have a queen and workers, you just can't see any brood. That is pretty normal this time of year. The cluster can also look really small if the weather is chilly. If you have freezing temps most of the winter, you can wait until late Jan/Feb to move the frames of honey to the freezer. Wax moths aren't a problem over the winter and the SHB's don't really lay eggs in the winter either, although you will see them in the comb.

If it were my hive, and if you get one more warm day, you can open the hive to see if there are still bees in there and then just wait out the winter to see what happens...unless you have a second hive that you can combine the weak hive with now.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Shrinking hive populations at this time of year is normal, to a certain extent. I have many hives that were in one deep and five medium boxes high just a couple months ago that are now occupying just a single deep box. Queens cut way back on brood rearing after the main flow is over. There should still be some capped brood in the hive right now, some eggs and larva should be there also, but in much smaller amounts and may be hard to spot if you don't take out every last frame looking for it. I would say there should be some brood visible in the hive or they may be queenless. Maybe they tried to supercede their queen late in the year, and it failed for some reason. Seeing bees bringing in a little pollen here and there does not mean that a queen is present, that's just what bees do. Of course, if they have a queen there should be lots of pollen coming in, but there also should be some brood present too.


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## Tony Rogers (Oct 18, 2012)

Donna, I made the mistake of assuming my hives didn't have mites three summers back, because I didn't see any. They indeed were full of them and I lost nearly all my hives. The bad part is a commercial beekeeper asked me several times if I had treated for mites and my response was, "I don't see any". You need to do an actual mite test. I'd recommend the powdered sugar test. Here's a link to one demonstration. http://youtu.be/fDAErFAIneY


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## colby (Jan 12, 2013)

mite count asap. Sticky board, sugar roll or alcohol wash. I am a hobby beek. I had two package hives and a third from a swarm last year. I figured I am in the burbs, how could I have mites. well late summer/fall hit and my numbers plummeted. upon further inspection ...... MITES. I am using the oav method of treatment know and am quite happy. I have a package of maqs in the basement but I was afraid to use them in fear of harming the queens. when using the oav the bees don't seem to mind and the mite drops are significant. I will say that I purchased my vaporizer from oxavap and am very happy with its ease of use. best of luck but inaction will mean the end of your hives.


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## Donna (Jul 23, 2014)

Thanks again everyone. I'm almost sure this hive is doomed because of the really small numbers but I will do what I can to figure out if mites are the culprit. It's good to know I'm not the only person who has minimized this possibility and I'll be much more aware in the future. If mites are the problem it apparently caused the demise very quickly. I've been gone for two weeks and when I returned the change in the hive was really concerning. This first year has been quite a learning experience for sure!


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

I guess we're not the only ones worried about diminished colonies and lack of brood. This is the end of our second year as beekeepers. 

We just went through our three hives. We've had very little time to do hive management this year. We started with one colony as we'd combined two week hives at the end of last year. That colony came out strong; we bought a package for the empty hive and it seemed to do well, then was robbed and the queen was gone. We bought two queens and split the overwintered hive and requeened the package. 

Things seemed to be going OK. We have 2:1 syrup in each hive and just went out to check on things. We found that the bee count in one of the hives appears to be pretty low, a bit better in the next, and even better in the third. All still have queens, but very little brood and most of it old. There is a little bit of larvae in each. So yes, we have some concerns at the moment as to whether or not they will have enough brood to get them through the winter. All three seem to be doing OK with pollen and honey. 

So, I guess we'll just wait and see how it goes over the next few weeks. Just about time to put up wind breaks and put insulation in the roofs.

Cheers,
Tom

Cheers,
Tom


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## fruitveggirl (Mar 8, 2013)

Donna said:


> Thanks for your replies...
> 
> I've never seen mites on the bottom of the hive, or on any of the bees (don't laugh too hard) when observing them.
> 
> Any recommendations for best methods of storing comb?


I split my bees in July, and I've never seen mites either. I'm sure they're in there, but I simply haven't seen them. I know what they look like, and I actively looked for them... they're just not there. However, this is what I'd expect since the bees had a brood break.

If you have a deep freeze, you can put your comb in there. I use plastic bins for storing comb in the freezer (so that it doesn't get squashed). However, if you have a lot of comb and a nice cold winter, you could try leaving it in your hive. That's what I'm doing because we get good freezes, so wax moths aren't a concern for me in winter.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

How many frames of bees do you have left, that's the important question.


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## Donna (Jul 23, 2014)

Sadly, almost no bees left. Just a live queen and a few straggling workers trying to take care of her. Really a sickening feeling when I think of how many bees were in there this summer. Thanks for the comb storage advice: I took some beautiful comb with lots of pollen and put it in the freezer, along with some fairly new empty comb on the bars that they had drawn out straight. I harvested the honey and will melt down some of the other comb. I am reluctant to leave it in the hive all winter because earwigs (and yellow jackets) are already moving in. 

Fruitveggirl (I love your blog, by the way!), I thought my hive had a drone break too because of the mid-July swarm. There are some on the bottom of the hive, but not tons like I've seen in pictures, and I definitely see evidence on the older comb. I'll be more proactive in the future. Letting them make their own queen might have been a mistake, too, since they probably never built up adequate population before fall weather set in, and the mites really were able to take hold.

Since I've never done anything but top bar, and few beekeepers in my local club do top bar, it's been hard knowing normal from not normal---two hives will definitely be a bonus next year. This forum is a big help and I need to use it more often!


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Can some of you experts give us noobs a proper idea of what constitutes enough bees to make a viable cluster to overwinter? I get that we should expect a fall brood break, but I'm picturing that they still need some thousands of bees, enough to make a cluster maybe the size of a cantaloupe down in the frames.

We just gave up on a queen that has not produced any brood in a month or so. The only brood left appears to be dead, including some uncapped cells the workers have not bothered to clean out. The queen was alive, but a picture I posted of her here some time ago showed a skinny wretch, with no retinue, which at that (end of August) was making spotty brood. Comments from experts were that they pinch queens that look like that. And her sister, purchased at the same time, failed this same way in June. Both were Carniolans, and may have been shipped when it was too cold this spring.

Inspecting the hive on Friday, I'd say there were about enough bees left to cover my hand. I think maybe 500 to 1000 left. Really pathetic looking. I cannot imagine they could have made a cluster as large as my fist. My unexpert impression is that she failed before making winter bees. 

We made an emergency nuc a couple of months back from some frames of brood from a more robust hive. The nuc successfully raised a queen and had capped brood a week ago. At that time, an inspection of the failing hive had the queen fall out onto the hive stand, where she put on an act of being crippled and near death. At that time we decided she was kaput and we would combine with the nuc. Friday's inspection showed she had been faking injury, but this did her case no good. She's floating in rum now, and the new queen's sisters are gnawing thru the Washington Post classifieds to combine with the survivors of the old colony, and their stores.

Hoping to heck this Hail Mary combination works, and wondering if that paltry bunch of Carniolans was doing a normal winter downsizing.

Additional datum: both of our hives still have a few drones coming and going. I watched one begging and getting food from one of his sisters outside the healthy hive. Kinda like kissing your sister.

Mite counts have been low, usually 2 on the sugar rolls, but the last roll produced 0.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

BeeGora said:


> One of my hives is doing the same thing. They completely ignore the syrup but are bringing in pollen. The dwindling is normal for this time of year. They're downsizing so that there's not so many mouths to feed over the winter. I'm going to take out most of the empty comb and put an unused bar (maybe two) behind the last bar of comb left in the hive and then the divider board behind that. I would leave whatever honey they have in there, wrap them up when winter sets in, and hope for the best. Good luck.


I also have a hive that doesn't seem to like my cooking. They are flying pretty strongly and they are not being mean. I really don't want to open them and break up their work, but I don't want to lose them either.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

dsegrest said:


> I also have a hive that doesn't seem to like my cooking. They are flying pretty strongly and they are not being mean. I really don't want to open them and break up their work, but I don't want to lose them either.


Doesn't sound like they are doing much work to be broken up...?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

fruitveggirl said:


> I split my bees in July, and I've never seen mites either. I'm sure they're in there, but I simply haven't seen them. I know what they look like, and I actively looked for them... they're just not there. However, this is what I'd expect since the bees had a brood break.
> 
> If you have a deep freeze, you can put your comb in there. I use plastic bins for storing comb in the freezer (so that it doesn't get squashed). However, if you have a lot of comb and a nice cold winter, you could try leaving it in your hive. That's what I'm doing because we get good freezes, so wax moths aren't a concern for me in winter.


You're not going to see them unless you're grabbing bees and flipping them over as the mites typically are 1) in sealed brood or 2) sucking on the bottom side of bees.


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