# On the Spot Queen Rearing



## Scottsman (May 1, 2011)

Anyone using the MDA Splitter method as described at MDASPLITTER.COM ?


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

I've thought about it.  I had a hard time understanding what he was describing until I saw a picture. And then it wasn't what I thought it was.. Oh well.. I need to see more pictures of it I think.. I'm thinking a lot about the method of cutting strips of comb with the right aged larva, squishing 2 leaving 1 down the strip, and suspending that in a cell raising frame. I built a queen castle though, so I'm hoping to raise at least one batch of queens this year.


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## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

This has been brought up before on here the last several years. It seems that alot of people like the idea of it and try it but not many seem to stick with it. I personally have no experience with it.


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## GeeBee (Apr 11, 2011)

I plan to try it this year with two of my hives. I've met Mel before and he seems pretty knowledgable. Several people in the class he taught have reported good results over several seasons, so I'm interested in trying it.


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

Does anyone know where there are more pictures available of the bottom cell wall being removed properly for OTS? The PDF that Mel has, has a couple grainy black and white pictures, but that is the only one I've found. I thought from my first few readings, that you would knock down the bottom of 1 cell, but then in his picture, he is knocking down a solid inch and a half or two inches of cell walls..


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

If you go to Youtube and punch in Mel Disselkoen, it will give you a video to watch where he talks about notching the comb with a hive tool to tear down the bottom of the cell wall. I am very interested in trying this method out myself. John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I think that Mel's method would be less work rather than using the Fatbeeman's method where you cut strips of cells and attach them to the cell bars with wax. The only difference that might make a difference in the queen quality would be that queen cells that hang completely vertical may nourish the queen better and the cells may be larger, otherwise why would so many queen rearing methods be based around the vertical cells instead of being built off the side of the comb like Mel's method. John


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

You simply need to kill the larva around the cell you want to grow. A couple/few cells in each direction is plenty. Use the head of a large finish nail or grind the tip flat on a 12 or 16D common nail. Then just pull down the bottom cell wall with the nail (don't kill the larva!) to trick the bees into thinking they have a queen cell started. You still need to be able to gauge the age of the larva and use the youngest available. When I use this method with a queenless hive I try to give them a nice yellow, fresh comb that's soft and easy for them to build the wax out. I also select 5-6 cells to work on; sometimes they'll draw out all of them but usually you'll end up with maybe 3 out of 6. What works best for me, however, is to graft a larva into a plastic cell cup and push them into an open brood frame pointed down. Again, I do 5-6 cell cups but I have a much better success rate. I only use either method when I'm at an outyard and find a queenless hive with no cells available.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Fishy, do you then go back later, and kill the emergency cells that you have not done the OTS intervention on? Also, how many OTS cells do you leave in one hive/nuc?


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## GeeBee (Apr 11, 2011)

When Mel was teaching his class here, he basically said he takes his hive tool and inserts it straight into the comb at a 90 degree angle, being careful not to touch the larva. Then he presses the wax below the larva flat, basically removing the 'floor' of the cell and simultaneously killing the larva below it. Don't destroy more than one row of cells below the row you want the bees to raise queens in though. In all his publications, he says he goes all the way in to the midrib. As near as I can tell, that means to press in until you've reached the foundation (but not through it). If you're using plastic foundation, it should be easy. He likes to do 5-6 cells in a row, about the width of the hive tool to give the bees plenty of options to choose from. He also said he likes to notch several places on one side of a frame. He'll do this on several frames in his hive, but usually only on one side of the frame. Then he'll use each frame as the basis for a nuc, allowing all the queen cells on that particular frame to ripen and allow the queens to fight it out themselves.

This would be a good way to get the bees to make royal jelly too, if you get several cells on one frame, you can cut out all but one and harvest the jelly if you want, or just let the queens duke it out for supremacy. I also want to try grafting this year, but have no jelly to prime my cups with, so I plan to use OTS to get some to kickstart my grafting.

I did try to do OTS last year, but I did it on eggs instead of larva, and the bees just removed them, so definitely make sure you're picking 36hr old or younger larva, and stay away from the eggs.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

I accidentally killed a queen last year, so when I realized it I quickly did he OTS. Got 3 really good queens that way, and 3 that were average. The method messes us the comb a little, but oh well. Very nice for making nuc splits. Each nuc gets a frame with 2-3 queen cells, a bit of natural selection.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Glad to see this thread. I'm planning to try Mel's method of notching and rearing queen cells over an excluder in a queen-right hive.
I found two hives yesterday that appeared to have swarmed, probably virgin queens with no fresh brood. I used the "when in doubt" method of M Bush and gave them both a frame of eggs/young larva and notched them to ensure they had something to work with if the new queens didn't mate.

Mel has stated that OTS can be used on eggs as well as larva. 
Adrian; He also states to leave two queen cells in each nuc


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I used Mel's method last year, but I'm embarrassed to say when I came back to the hives I had forgotten where I'd notched the cells and it took a lot of poking around to find which cells I wanted to leave. Next time I'm going to mark the frames.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Mel has stated that OTS can be used on eggs as well as larva. 
Adrian; He also states to leave two queen cells in each nuc[/QUOTE]


Someone earlier posted that they didn't have success notching under eggs, but Mel says you can, I was hoping to be able to do it under eggs so I wouldn't have to guess at which larvae are 36 hrs. old or under. John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Adrian, thats why I like to use those little stick on labels, they come in a few different colors and sizes and work great for labeling specific frames for keeping track of things. I carry a sheet of them with me in my bee tool box all the time, also include a pen to write on them if you need to. John


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

John, that is a good idea.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Adrian; I'm not a "Cell Buster!"  If the bees draw out a queen cell it's staying in the hive and the bees can choose whichever one they want. I trust their judgement on this issue; they've been at it a lot longer than I have. As for doing OTS with eggs, I've never been able to get them to raise a queen from eggs. Do they raise a supersedure queen or emergency queen from eggs? No! They pick a right-age larva and build a cell around it. For finding larva the right age, just find a frame that has older larva or capped brood in the center. The larva will be younger and younger as you progress to the outside of the frame. On the perimeter of the brood will be eggs and the larva right next to or mixed in with eggs are the right age. The little larva will be difficult to see but will be laying in a tiny puddle of Royal Jelly. If you see RJ there's a larva in that cell; bees don't feed eggs, empty cells or store RJ in empty cells! Look at this smiley face.  The right size larva will be about the size of the winking eye and will be shaped like the smile, not curled into a full "C" shape yet. So easy a caveman can do it!


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## fieldbee (Feb 7, 2012)

Have used the OTS quite a bit in our operation, for example if we find a Queenless hive and have no available queens, get a frame of brood from another hive with eggs and just hatched lava and notch. A couple of things to note, if no honey flow happening at the time give a litre of sugar syrup, the bees will have something to work with, it does give a better result. 
Have done splits by notching, different to Mels way, usualy at the end of honey production, split a box of brood in half, queen in top half facing back with split board between two boxes, notch the bottom queenless box have had good success with these splits. success rate about the same as spliting this way with a queen cell.
Have done splits by notching when I have been too busy for queen raising. Told a brother Beek (he been a beek 25 yrs) about OTS about a year ago, just found that is all he is using for queens for splitting in his 1600 operation.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Fieldbee; What's a split board?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

fish stix,

The smiley face with the winking eye is the best description of how to find the right age larvae that I have ever seen, I was going to do the OTS by notching underneath eggs, but now I feel confident that I can pick the right larvae like the caveman does. I just need to go and get me a new pair of dollar store reading glasses with a slightly higher magnification than I currently have and I'll be ready to go. John


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

I have had this method at the back of my head for a few years now. I have doubts though about queen quality and wonder why would they be any better than other emergency queens because that's basically what they are and how well are they really feed for the first couple days when they decide or are deciding to make it a queen or not.


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## fieldbee (Feb 7, 2012)

DonShackelford said:


> Fieldbee; What's a split board?


you may call it a division board or here in NZ some call them hive mats, a piece of ply board in a frame with a small entrance cut out.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

jmgi; ditto the glasses! However, I buy the 2X reading glasses at Walgreens Drug Stores; around $8-9. Keep one in the truck, one in my beekeeping box, one in the car, one in the living room and 2 next to the computer 'cuz my wife always runs off with a pair. And I still can't find a pair when I need them. It's not good getting old!


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Fieldbee; Can I ask what the purpose of the split board is? Does it allow bees to travel through to both broods?

WI-beek; notching the brood creates a downward angle for queen cells to be constructed, so it is different than cells built on the side of the comb which appear to go out then down as in an emergency cell.


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

To me this seems like alot of work. Why not just let the bees choose where to make the queen cells? Maybe I'm missing something.


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## Scottsman (May 1, 2011)

spencer said:


> To me this seems like alot of work. Why not just let the bees choose where to make the queen cells? Maybe I'm missing something.


The point is to raise Queens to host NUC's to sell to those who can't keep their bees alive or are just starting out. In today's environment, with the pest, pesticides and unexplained abscounce new bees are always in demand. It's no reflection on bee keepers abilities, it's just fact that the world is losing feral bee colonies and if we don't intervene, and in a natural way, there will be no bees.


No Bees, No Bread, No Bread, You are Dead.


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## Scottsman (May 1, 2011)

One more thought, I used the CVS 2.5 mag. glasses and couldn't find larvae small enough to use for OTS.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

For those who have used OTS queen rearing, are you doing it mostly for making up multiple starts as Mel does, or are you doing it for a single split, like a cut down split or walk away split?

As for finding the right age larvae, although I have not done it yet, I will have to do it any day now, I know that when you see a frame of eggs, there is no royal jelly in with them. But if you scan the area with just eggs, and look at the outer edges of that area, you will see some cells that begin to look like they have a little puddle of whitish liquid, in that puddle lies a larvae which is the right age for notching or tearing down the bottom of the cell wall. Some larvae will be laying in a larger puddle than others, you want to pick the ones with the smallest puddle of jelly you can find next to cells with eggs. I know what to look for, just have'nt actually done the OTS yet. John


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## Scottsman (May 1, 2011)

Right now, I'm confused, again. Ain't that a befuddling predicament. The cells that I thought were three days old were small "C" with a barely wet bottom. You could see the larvae above the RJ. Were they too old ?


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

The larva are just about the same size as the egg they just hatched from. If they're in a very small puddle of RJ they're probably OK. You realize, of course, that it doesn't hurt anything to try these techniques? You can't hurt the hive! If the bees don't draw cells do it again. Try grafting! A queen can lay 1500 eggs a day; do you think it will kill off a hive to practice grafting a dozen, or 2 dozen, or 100 of those larva? Take an empty frame of drawn comb and put it right next to a frame of eggs/open brood in the brood box. Check it every day. The first day that you see larva is the right day to graft or use OTS; the larva are exactly the right age, they have to be, they just hatched within the last 24 hours since you checked them yesterday. When you get done fooling with that frame wash it out with a hose/spray nozzle, shake the water out and put it back in the same position again. Amazingly enough, the same thing will occur again; 3-4 days after you put it in you'll have the right age larva.


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

WI-beek said:


> I have doubts though about queen quality and wonder why would they be any better than other emergency queens because that's basically what they are and how well are they really feed for the first couple days when they decide or are deciding to make it a queen or not.


OK, I'll take a crack at this one. I make no claim to know anything, but I just got done reading Better Queens by Jay Smith, and he talks a lot about the importance of the right amount of feed for good queens. For a standard emergency queen, the bees flood the cell with royal jelly, floating the larva out, then they build the cell hanging down on the face of the comb. In this kind of cell, the larva doesn't really get to eat all the royal jelly that is provided. A lot of it stays up in the comb's cell, while the larva ends up down in the hanging queen cell. So they e-queen lacks great nutrition for a bit, after it has been floated out of the cell. With OTS, the bees build the queen cell such that it incorporates the comb cell bottom and top. This would allow for the larva to be in direct contact with it's fed the entire time, just like a normal queen cup and cell. So the problem with e-queens is they get floated out of their food, and can't get back to it after a bit. OTS queens shouldn't have that problem..

This is just my guess, based on reading I've done..


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Capricorn, that is how I also understand it. Better queens is a great book. 

I have another point. If a person is following following Mel's methods the worry of whether or not the queen has the ability to produce eggs for a long time is irrelevant because she will be removed and never tested for longevity because of the frequency of induced requeening with this method.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Adrian, Mel requeens every July, which is what all the old beekeeping books teach. i don't know of any breeders developing queens that can lay well season after season.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I think most queens will lay well from the beekeepers point of view for about two seasons, but I think the bees like a new one every year. John


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Don, I'm convinced that June/July is the best time for making queens and splits, at least in my area; The temps are going to be consistently 70 degrees or better, there are plenty of drones around, the bees don't have to cluster up, and there is nectar coming in. My maxim is "go with the flow".


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Doolittle wrote that a queen MATED after June 21st will lay like a spring queen well into fall. This seems to be the basis of Mel's nuc management program. 
A question;
Mel uses 2 frames of brood for both spring and summer splits. Just about everyone else I've talked to warns that it takes 3 frames of brood to get ready for winter. Anyone try it both ways to see the difference?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Don, I split one single deep hive 4 ways in Mid-June, into 5 frame nucs, let them build up, and then added a second storey and they overwintered just fine.
My other group of 5 nucs came from splitting 2 hives into 7 (5 frame) nucs, one didn't mate, one contained the original queen. I added a second storey and the 5 also overwintered. 
Michael Palmer's vimeo lecture talks about the appropriateness of bees matching their space and the benefits of a more vertical space. I think that when making 2 frame splits they will do better in a nuc box than a ten framer.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Thanks for the info Adrian. It is reassuring. The last thing I'd want to do is stretch the bees too thin and lose all.

Did you give your starts queens or queen cells? Did you feed them?

Last fall when I was setting up my reentry to beekeeping, I decided to settle on all 8 frame deeps as a compromise between nucs and 10 framers. Being 500 miles south of you, and further from M Palmer, it seemed reasonable to winter in one 8 frame with top feeder. I'm also using true 1 1/4 frames, so there are 9 in the box. I understand this is a little more risk, but here in Indy the bees can usually make it to the next honey frame between cold snaps.
If my loss rate is a little higher this way, it will still be a more economical method for me. Of course if my loss rate is substantial, then I chose the wrong path. I am working on a division board to let me make 2 4 frame starts in one box. Holding breath through this coming winter!


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Don, good luck - it sounds like you have a well thought out plan.
In answer to your question: I have two groups of nucs the first one came from cells on new comb that resulted because I accidentally killed the queen; The second came from swarm cells. Giving cells makes for a longer brood break.
The nucs built up well on the Goldenrod flow, and then I topped them off with 2 gallons of syrup.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I use it constaly.. A few hundred a year. Don't worry about the age of the larve, pick eggs. they will work fine. its not like grafting. I usually pick 3-4 per frame Just in case and check in 10 days


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

Where does Mel get all his queens when he does his first round of splits on the 1st of May?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

He raises them! Go read the info, it is worth it.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Anybody tried queenright? Cell is more like superceder than emergency.

It is not that I do not believe it, mating at lower fifties ( pre or early dandelion) does not sound right. Still may be true.


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## fieldbee (Feb 7, 2012)

Saltybee said:


> Anybody tried queenright? Cell is more like superceder than emergency.
> 
> It is not that I do not believe it, mating at lower fifties ( pre or early dandelion) does not sound right. Still may be true.


Saltybee, do you mean that you notch the frames and still have a queen in the hive. I havent had success doing that. 
Or do you have the notch frames above a queen excluder.


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

I have read it but it confuses me as to where he gets his queen cells from 
http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/Outbreeding Mites and Overwintering Honeybee Nucs (I).pdf 
page 5

Plus he says he sells the nucs for $75 and makes $60 net profit from each. What's the extra $15 for? A Queen?


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## 37 V8 (Nov 11, 2011)

Plus he says he sells the nucs for $75 and makes $60 net profit from each. What's the extra $15 for? A Queen? 

He makes and sells the mda splitter nuc box as well.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Fieldbee,

Curious about both queenright and above excluder. Notching to make queens is not new. Using it to make early queens and control mites is a different blend and thought process.

Spencer, 37 V8,

I agree not all of his explanations are clear. Does not mean the statement is not sound. I have a long list of things to try, most I never will. This is one I will add to the top of the to try list. I will not commit a lot of resources to the first try, but you never know. 


Many methods are tried, some fail, some work for a few, some become the standard.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Here's a pictorial of OTS on Mel's site
http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/2010 Spring Splits Part One.pdf

As you read through his site, you can see how he developed his ideas. He really doesn't explain beekeeping like some of the pro's on this board (which is why I come here!), but rather presents his research on various management concepts. 

His "Babydoll Specialty Honey II" at
http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/Babydoll Specialty Honey.pdf
is a plan I'd like to develop. It uses OTS over an excluder in a queen-right hive. If it works, it seems to be an easy way to make splits without having to find the old queen. That's a real issue for a bifocal wearer like myself.

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone using this method to rear queen cells.


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## Scottsman (May 1, 2011)

I'm not an expert but I haven't had any luck with the broken cell method. I only want to raise queens for my personal use and not to sell at this time. I like my stock and want to see it proliferated through the apiary. I have a hive without a queen that is still making honey and storing pollen but no laying workers. I've been taking an empty brood frame from them and placing it in another hive that I use just for the eggs. On day three I move that frame back to the queen less hive and they raise a few queens. Cut the capped queen cells, after they harden, and graft to an empty frame and place them in a NUC with other's, takes about 10 days. The frame in the queenriight hive having had 10 days will have laid up the empty frame and most of the brood will be capped. This replenishes the Queenless hive with new bees. Start the process over. I would add that as long as there is brood in a queenless hive it seems to retard the workers desire to lay.


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## Scottsman (May 1, 2011)

Fieldbee

I may be breaking away too much of the cell wall. I took it down to the foundation. Not sure how to interpret Mels definition of Mid Rib. Since you use the method successfully can you better describe the notching process ?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Scottsman,

For what it is worth, probably not much, I am thinking the notch is not the problem. The queen will lay with almost no wall at all and the bees will float out a cell if they are of a mind to. As long as you do not kill the larva try several depths on several size larva. You do not need a wide blade, a nail will do one at a time. It may be just a timing thing.


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