# Pollen Sub Improvement



## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

Leave out the egg!
Samonella!


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I have found by adding dehydrated milk to Megs bee the bee like it better.

I also have used rice bran and baker’s yeast in the mix.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

It was implied that I would use safe ingredients.

Dairy? Maybe Casein but its $$


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Brewers yeast, Soy, and Inedible egg work well. Calculate the fat content of your sub... 

I have tried dry whole milk but it has only 26% protein and has 28% fat...


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## arrowwood (Apr 11, 2012)

> This study made me think that it's not about developing a Pollen Sub but maybe about developing a product that bees can easily utilize to turn into bee bread. I know it's not a huge distinction but it maybe an important one


sounds to me like a huge distinction - thanks for the perspective and the article:applause:


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

RAK said:


> Brewers yeast, Soy, and Inedible egg work well. Calculate the fat content of your sub...
> 
> I have tried dry whole milk but it has only 26% protein and has 28% fat...


Thanks 
Do you have a recommended target for fat % ? Why?
Does anyone have a good link to a feed calculator that works well?


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

arrowwood said:


> sounds to me like a huge distinction - thanks for the perspective and the article:applause:


It's a worthwhile read. Lots of info almost too much .


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm just waiting on one item and I'll go ahead and mix up a batch.

I can't say I've got my heart set on trying any separate batches.

I did find mention of "back in he day" beekeepers adding Rum and or Tang powdered drink mix.
I guess the modern equivalent would be Patron and Gatorade ?


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

I think Tang was used for the vit. C


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Mbeck said:


> Thanks
> Do you have a recommended target for fat % ? Why?


I mix mine with
6% fat content
20% protein


Good pollen will have average of 20% protein and somewhere with at least 5% fat. You will also want to add some some citric acid crystals. 

Bees don't eat pollen but bee bread. That the whole point of "patties". I have tasted bee bread and my own pollen sub...both taste good.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

RAK said:


> Good pollen will have average of 20% protein


RAK, some good points you made, good pollen will avg 26%. Steady she go's men.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks for the feed back. It's funny I kind of like the taste of sub as well


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I've been feeding and observing.
Consistency is something I still need to get perfect.

The ROI on this project is good. The hives that have had pollen sub have a lot more brood than those that haven't. It's close to three frames more brood on the hives that have been fed 4-5 #.
No issue with SHB but they aren't real bad yet,time will tell.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm still trying to improve my recipe. 
It is getting close to the time of year here where I think pollen sub has the potential to give the greatest ROI. 

Anyone care to answer some ?

In your area what time of the year gives you the greatest efficiency from Pollen Sub?

How do you measure the value?
x pounds of sub consumed = y frames of brood?

How long at what frequency and how many pounds do you feed?


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Mbeck said:


> How do you measure the value?


We put 7-10 lbs late August but this year we started feeding sept. My way of measurement: When the lids go off in Jan the hives are FILLED with bees.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Rak,
Is that 7-10# one shot or 3-5# twice?
I'm guessing that you run double deeps?
How many additional frames of brood will that give you over an equal strength hive that wasn't fed sub? ( maybe you have missed feeding some?)

What do you do with booming hives in Jan?


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

1 round is 7-10lbs of sub. They get one round end of Aug then another sometime in Nov. Early jan I give them about 5 lbs to wake them up. I move my bees down to CA in October. Hives are mostly doubles some are singles. Singles get a second boxes with feeder and are fed syrup way more than doubles. I have never counted brood frames when feeding. I rarely pull frames out this time of year but Hives fed sub are between 14-18 frames of bees in Jan while the ones not fed are around 8-10. Some of darker bees could have 6 frames if not fed sub. We split hives in Jan right before almonds and balance with our late summer nucs.

We have a yard that has not yet received sub. I will count the frames of brood in hives with sub vs without and will let you know within a few days.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

So what is your recipe up to this point

The isolate is it soy isolate?


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

FlowerPlanter said:


> So what is your recipe up to this point
> 
> The isolate is it soy isolate?


I did use soy isolate. It was available locally last year and a bit pricy.
This year I haven't seen it locally. I was going to change the egg product and had a couple ideas for alternatives that would work better. My local source for Brewers Yeast is gone so if I find it locally it might be a different brand and nutritional level? Or shipped it will double the cost.
So I guess my goal of creating a sub that offered the good value while addressing my needs is turning into a wild goose chase. The commercial subs I've tried where not being consumed fast enough and created SHB issues, maybe I didn't use it right. 
Suggestions?


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Mann lake sells 50 bags of brewer’s yeast, cheaper than pollen sub.

I priced soy isolate found it is very expensive. Thought about adding it to a commercial sub.

What commercial subs have you tried, which ones were not being consumed fast enough

Suggestions? 
More water or oil so that it does not dry out. 
A few drops of wintergreen EO might keep the beetles out, I hear they don’t like it. It might keep the bees off it too. Might also try Thyme EO bees will eat that but I don’t know about the beetles. 

You may have read these already, there is some good info on subs.

https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-054

http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/CAPArticle10.html


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

If you cant find a local source for brewers yeast then Mann lake isnt too bad because they have free shipping. I think if you get a tote its like 83 cents/lb. I do know that there is a company that makes brewers yeast in N Carolina and brewtech is in Texas.

I get my yeast from Aventine in Decatur IL and Toasted Soy flour from HoneySoy in MN.
Soy isolate 63% protein(soycomil R) could be purchased from ADM. I think it was 1.20 this year.They have other soy isolates that are even higher in protein.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Those are interesting links.

I'm not going to name products I tried. I may no have used them correctly and don't have the experience or number of hives to give a fair assessment.

It was suggested to me that the addition of soy flour attracted and promoted beetle grow more than the other ingredients and that a brewers yeast base with whole dried egg was the route to take when SHB where a concern. Faster consumption is a goal so high % of sugars etc made sense. I started with a basic recipe along these lines and say huge improvements over tinkering with commercial sub. It was cheaper and worked better. I may be on the wrong path or not using or assessing products ingredients correctly.

I maybe as close to a good value product as reasonably possible with my knowledge,experience and resources as I'm going to get. I'd just buy it I there was a product I could use effectively,wasn't hard to get and offered a good value.

Maybe I should just call around and see if I can get a couple bags of this milled extra fine.

http://www.empyreal75.com/nutri_profile.php

It's almost perfect!
A little tweaking and a bunch of sugar Done!
Does anyone know what I should add to balance this out for bees??
Anyone?:scratch:


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Rak,
Thanks for the info. 
Tote? I mix it 1/2 50# bag at a time in a wheelbarrow with a hoe.
I only use 75# of yeast last spring. Hopefully I can feed most stronger singles close to 3# at a time without issue. It's not pretty if they don't clean it up and the SHB get in it.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

I have no experiences with beetles but I bet its not easy to feed sub. I checked on the doubles and there is 6-9 frames of capped brood on the few pallets I went through so an av of 7 frames of capped brood is fair... Hives w/o pollen sub got some sub today. Most of those are 3-4 frames of capped brood. Some are barley brooding.

The hive in the pic is nothing to brag about but there is definitely a brood increase.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

RAK said:


> I have no experiences with beetles but I bet its not easy to feed sub. I checked on the doubles and there is 6-9 frames of capped brood on the few pallets I went through so an av of 7 frames of capped brood is fair... Hives w/o pollen sub got some sub today. Most of those are 3-4 frames of capped brood. Some are barley brooding.
> 
> The hive in the pic is nothing to brag about but there is definitely a brood increase.
> 
> ...


Thanks for Sharing. Hive and equipment looks nice. We couldn't be further apart and I don't normally keep singles but that "nothing to brag about" hive would be just about right to me going into our "winter".
I maybe overly concerned about SHB. I know many people with more experience that don't seem to worry about them. It's no fun if the SHB get a jump on you. It wouldn't be so tough if I didn't always keep Nucs, pull queens to sell, feed sub etc.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Kitten Kibbles are about 32% protein, 9% fat and can be had for about 0.40/lb in bulk. Has anyone tried powdered kitten kibbles at the backyard/hobby level? 

High protein/low cost winner seems to be feather meal, has anyone tried a formulation to 30% protein based on feather meal -- one could cut the feathers with one of the many livestock meals (distiller's lees) in the 20% protein range.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I have the worst luck; finally taught my horse to eat sawdust and he died. 

Old joke but you may be getting close. Bees use fermented pollen, i'm not sure it is the same method of consumption with sub; no fermentation time. My homemade is very course compared to ultra bee. 
Do not know how other commercial subs compare. A bee needs it very finely ground and/or fermented feed.


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## Glen H (Aug 17, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> Kitten Kibbles are about 32% protein, 9% fat and can be had for about 0.40/lb in bulk. Has anyone tried powdered kitten kibbles at the backyard/hobby level?
> 
> High protein/low cost winner seems to be feather meal, has anyone tried a formulation to 30% protein based on feather meal -- one could cut the feathers with one of the many livestock meals (distiller's lees) in the 20% protein range.


Doesn't cat food have meat protein in it?? I'm not going to try it!!! Also I have the feeling Cat food is high on Ash. 

Glen


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

No meat protein, you've never watched a bee eat a larvae then? You do know they are cannibals, don't you?

Yup, I know some of this has an ick factor (and there might be issues with constituents), but pollen is relatively indigestible. It has a really hard coat, it after all is recoverable from lake beds after thousands of years. 

Amino acids are amino acids. Not much different from one source to another, but limiting factor can be an incomplete suite (why soy works better than Corn gluten).


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

JWChesnut said:


> Kitten Kibbles are about 32% protein, 9% fat and can be had for about 0.40/lb in bulk. Has anyone tried powdered kitten kibbles at the backyard/hobby level?
> 
> High protein/low cost winner seems to be feather meal, has anyone tried a formulation to 30% protein based on feather meal -- one could cut the feathers with one of the many livestock meals (distiller's lees) in the 20% protein range.



The protein in those is too low for sub making. 40-50% of sub needs to be sucrose so if you have a 30% protein and you add sugar you drop down to 15% protein. Then when you add the syrup you drop down to 8-9% protein.


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## Glen H (Aug 17, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> No meat protein, you've never watched a bee eat a larvae then? You do know they are cannibals, don't you?


Nope never seen it myself yet. And nope didn't know Honey bees were meat eating Cannibals either. I knew Wasps and Hornets eat meat, but didn't know Honey Bees eat meat.

I'll have to go look that one up!

Glen


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Interesting study 

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/pdf-files/Haydak 2.pdf
Tested different food ingredients

look at table 2, if I read it right 
The pollen sub with soy flour, 20% skim milk powder , oil and 10% egg yolk was superior to even bee bread in bee mortality and brood count.

Table 3 looks like yeast and skim milk along with soy flour and dry skim milk out performed bee bread in brood while rearing a queen but bee bread slightly better mortality.

Based on this study I would look at soy flour, yeast, dry skim milk and dry egg yolks for ingredients in pollen subs.

I would also look at soy isolate for both protein and amino acids


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