# Pima County Zoning Enforcement hassel



## LaRae (Apr 29, 2005)

Hmmm sounds like you have two options:

1. Play the game-jump thru the hoops to (hopefully) satisfy them.

2. Talk to an attorney before you do anything else.


LaRae


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## LaRae (Apr 29, 2005)

Another thing....I hope you have been keeping a log of names/dates/titles and comments from anyone you have talked to in the city/county offices.


LaRae


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

If no such permit has ever been used for beekeeping, sounds like someone is trying to set up a precident, perhapse in response to deal with Africanized bees??? just a guess. Or just typical burocricy.

what qualifies as a "change in use"? would it be a change from the use the property was under at the time of the zoning? I don't see how they can define beekeeping as any other use than agriculture. Has your property been used as agriculture for a longer time than the 10 years of beekeeping?


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Joe, I'd be inclined to call them on it. From what I read it doesn't sound like you need a permit for a permittted use, so perhaps a visit to the planning board (or whatever they call it), they should be able to sort it out. Code Enforcement officers often get confused, they don't make the laws, they're just supposed to enforce them and very often, they don't really understand all the nuances involved. If the planning board isn't a help, there undoubtedly is an appeals process to the next highest authority.

It wouldn't hurt to talk to an attorney, especially if you can get an hour of their time for a bottle of honey. Try to find a bored one. I'm interested in the outcome of this- I just learned that the City of Lewiston here in Maine (about 30 miles from where I live) has "outlawed" beekeeping within the city limits, presumably due to concerns over AHB. It's a different situation from what you face, but regardless, we should all be concerned about zoning as it relates to beekeeping.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Some gardening has been practiced from time to time.

To my mind, this same kind of general zoning ordinance "zoning use permit" and the thinking used to force me to obtain such a permit, could be applied to anything I do at the property, even gardening.

And even if I obtained such a permit there is no guarantee they would allow me to keep my bees, even then.


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## LaRae (Apr 29, 2005)

If it were me I'd go talk to an atty before I did anything else.

It doesn't make sense that all this stems from one person making an unfounded complaint...there's more to this story they aren't telling you.


LaRae


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I just noticed something in the zoning guidelines: "3. Except for lots with an area greater than one acre, a barrier shall be erected that will prevent bees from flying through it.".

Since my lot is larger than one acre, this barrier thing does not apply. Ah hah. I have one anyway.


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## Big Stinger (Feb 17, 2006)

Call your lawyer and call them on it its your land seams like you could do what you want on it. Maybe someone is affraid your bees are AHB but if the person is not a beekeeper then who knows what there saying to those people in the shinney new cars. With nothing better to do than tell you that you need this permit for your bees. Whats next a permit to breath or what. So keep us posted on this mite come in handy for someone else down the road.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

It really doesn't make sense that permitted uses require permits and unpermitted uses are illegal, but that seems to be where we've ended up. You need a building permit to build a permitted structure for example. It used to be that you only got into trouble if you did something wrong. Now you can get into trouble doing something permitted by law but without having the proper permits.

In other words, it's entirely likely in this instance that you need a permit to engage in a permitted use. You can obtain that permit if you observe and comply with the zoning requirements, but you may still need a permit.

I'd still recommend a visit to the local planning board.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

"The property is zoned [SH], "

What is SH? What does it say about agriculture use, what exceptions are made for non-commercial activities/hobbies that involve agriculture. 

We are obviously as clueless as you are, but it still helps to think things out. Its no wonder we are clueless with all the permitting, allowing, revoking, and zoning that goes on.

Read ALL the zoning rules from start to finish and all the ordinances that remotely may in some backwards way apply, or read them all if its feasable. I read most of ours to prepare for any future problems. 

In the end though, its all interpretation, and who can make the decision in your favor at a level that someone higher up isnt going to take the time to interfear. Poloticin' or the court. Or if some do-godder jerk really gets felling good about themselves, they might make a new law.

"City of Lewiston here in Maine (about 30 miles from where I live) has "outlawed" beekeeping within the city limits, presumably due to concerns over AHB"

In Main??????? Can anyone say winter? 

"it its your land seams like you could do what you want on it"

It may seem that way at times, but its not the case. That doesn't make it right, but the reality is everyone is succiptiable to someone in a higher position of power. You can go higher than some shmuck writting permits. Time to get to know some people.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

We have a plan:

1) Send a formal, written request by certified mail to zoning enforcement requesting they put their demands and reasonings in writing.

2) Send a formal, written request by certified mail requesting the health department provide copies of their investigation reports.

3) In a few days temporarily remove the six colonies to another location during the night. Replace them with empty hives, not even frames. Then if there is another complaint before they are returned I can show the investigators that there are no bees presently on the property.

On an aside: one neighbor suspected of originating a complaint is a friend of my mother (mother actually lives on the property). We plan to have mother ask her for a written statement acknowledging that she knows about the bees and does not have a problem with them. 

[ April 08, 2006, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Clemens ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sounds like a good plan. I love the empty box method.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Well, I just finished relocating the six hives I had been keeping at the property in Marana, Arizona (without a "beekeeping permit"), moved them about 18 miles away. I replaced them with some empty older deeps that are almost completely worn out. They are barely useable, but since I don't use deeps and these weren't worth cutting down to mediums, I keep them only to store unused frames/combs and as swarm traps. I thought I had some that were without frames, but I didn't have six empties, so I used those with frames, some even have a few combs that the wax moths missed. I also have some older worn-out bottom boards and tops that I used to populate my decoy apiary. I posted a sign inside the apiary enclosure: "From: The Clemens' Honeybees
Gone on vacation. Will return soon."

I waited until after dark, used ratcheting straps to lock each hive together. Puffed a little smoke in each to quiet them down. All done while wearing only a pilot's skull cap (to keep them from finding my hair) and a red LED headlamp. Turned out the skull cap wasn't necessary, the girls stayed calm throughout the entire trip, loading and unloading included.

It will be very interesting to see how the officials react if they still get more complaints and come to investigate.

If their response includes the continued insistance that I obtain this "Beekeeping permit", I can honestly tell them, "I don't need one". If they don't ask specifically, why, who am I to tell them.  

The zoning code concerning beekeeping clearly states that it requires them to investigate to determine if I am keeping the bees according to the code guidelines. If I am not, the code then requires them to contact the Health Department for a determination whether the bees are a nuisance or hazard, if they are determined to be so, their fate is then decided by a joint decision of the zoning and health inspectors. None of this has happened yet. The Health Department inspectors have visited twice, in reponse to complaints filed directly with their department. The zoning enforcement office had received its own complaint, yet has not acted on it in accordance with the zoning code concerning beekeeping.


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## briancady413 (Dec 8, 2003)

Joseph, you might document that the hives there are empty, say with photos (that have the date stamped on them) of the empty box's insides.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Hold on here, it sounds to me like the "permit" approach is a very
good idea!!! If one has a specific permit, then the government can
tell the complainer that the use is not only permitted by the
government, but is also overtly "protected" by the permit.

Sure, it is a pain to be forced to pay a fee, but the advantages
are considerable, in that it creates a slam-dunk reason for
ignoring the busy-body who is complaining, and shuts down
any chance they might have to "take the issue up the chain of
command".

Sounds to me like the zoning boys are "on your side".
Don't fight someone who is helping you.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Call your lawyer and call them on it its your land seams like you could do what you want on it.

Sigh. Try not paying your property taxes and see what happens to your land. Stop paying your mortgage and see what happens to it. Stop paying both and watch the bank and the town fight over what to do with "your land". Try doing anything on or with your land that is not permitted by law and you'll find the folks with the statutory authority to enforce that law can, and will, make your life miserable.

There is a recourse. If you don't like the law you can under certain circumstances request a waiver or variance or alternatively, work to change the law or pick up and move somewhere without that law and hope they don't enact a similar or more odious law sometime in the future.

I don't like legislation and regulation any more than the next guy, but I hate to say it, I'm with Jim Fischer on this


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

Unfortunately for me, I'm the type of person who will spend $500 to fight a $25 ticket, fine, unecessary permit, etc.. I would have a lawyer prepare a letter to the health and zoning board declaring that since the zoning regulations do not establish a requirement for a beekeeping permit for your zoned property, the board should immediately either provide you with a copy of the regulations requireing said permit, or cease and desist their harassment of you. 

It sounds to me like the zoning enforcement supervisor is trying to create requirements that are not actually part of the zoning regulations. It may be necessary to appeal to the zoning board itself in order to set this person straight.

The only problem with this approach is that you can suddenly become a leper in your own neighborhood and end up with a hassle any time you decide to do anything at all on your property. Unfortunately this is what it takes sometime to protect your individual property rights.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Well early this afternoon I got most of the letters into the mail. Three that were certified, return receipt requested. Those three were almost $15 just to send them to downtown offices in this same town, whew. Up front this is gonna cost much more than the $25 permit, but I'm hoping to send a message. With how things are going in our beekeeping world, mites, AHB, etc. And beekeepers dropping out due to the degree of difficulty now common in the field of beekeeping. We need bees for our crops, now, even more than ever. Some states have incentive programs to recruit beekeepers, my county/state seems to be developing a disincentive program. Seems misinformed and quite apathetic.


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## clintonbemrose (Oct 23, 2001)

I agree with Jim on this one and I would be ahfrade of having empty hives in the yard because AHB's might like the hives and make them their home and now you have what they are trying to prevent. You are in AHB teritory. This could work against you.
Clint


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

> Hold on here, it sounds to me like the "permit" approach is a very
> good idea!!! If one has a specific permit, then the government can
> tell the complainer that the use is not only permitted by the
> government, but is also overtly "protected" by the permit.
> ...


Jim,
Following is the rest of the story:

At first that is precisely how I felt and what I expected to do.

When the guy at zoning enforcement first contacted me, he acknowledged that he was new to his job and unfamiliar with the code concerning beekeeping. He said how he thought that Pima county had an unusually detailed and convoluted code and enforcement regimen. This confession seemed curious, to say the least. Though upon my first contact with him I too was curious, I had kept myself familiar with the code as it concerned beekeeping, I thought that perhaps they had slipped a change in on me. I was all ready to pay for my "Beekeeping permit" and go on my merry way. But, wait, zoning enforcement could not provide details concerning what I needed to do to obtain this "Beekeeping permit". He gave me the phone number of the permit issuing department so I could find out from "the source" so to speak, what the procedure was to obtain this permit and how much it would cost. Still in the mode where I was telling myself that I had better get this "Beekeeping permit" as soon as I could, I had convinced myself that it could provide me a License to keep bees, an assurance that promised peace, so I promptly contacted the permit issuing department, left a message for them asking about how I could obtain a "Beekeeping permit". I was then out on other business and when I returned they had left a message for me, they simply answered my Beekeeping permit question by referring me to the code article regarding beekeeping. The, "Beekeeping code guidelines" says nothing about any "Beekeeping permit". The article was the same one that I have always been familiar with, no obvious changes. Now I was a little confused, so I again called my contact in zoning enforcement and explained that the permit issuing department had simply referred me to the code article concerning beekeeping and that it contained no reference to a Beekeeping permit. He assured me that if I again contacted the permit issuing department and spoke directly to someone there that they could answer my question and provide me with the Beekeeping permit. Then I called them again, to find out the particulars concerning the Beekeeping permit. This is when I started getting a bad feeling; the person I spoke with in the permit issuing department told me that I must have misunderstood what I had been told by the new guy in zoning enforcement, he explained that he had worked there for more than 25 years and he was familiar with the beekeeping code guidelines and no permit for beekeeping was required, nor did one even exist, while I was on the phone he even checked with his supervisor and together they assured me of the same. Uh Oh, now I was concerned. Zoning enforcement was expecting me to obtain a Beekeeping permit and there wasnt one to get. Good thing I hadnt driven all the way into town for nothing. Bottom line is zoning enforcement were actually requiring me to get a zoning change of use permit, outlined in the general zoning articles. Seemed to me that a, zoning change of use permit could be required for just about anything, even parking my car in a different position. This is when I really started questioning what I was being asked to do, and why. It sure didnt seem like this would provide much of any License to keep bees. So I decided to write them and ask them to put their request in writing, with particulars so I wouldnt have to regret later when they destroyed or forced me to remove my bees anyway. I also wrote to ask the Health Department for written copies of their reports of my bees, they had personally inspected the bees twice, before Id even heard from zoning enforcement, they had provided verbal assurances that my bees were fine and they could see that they posed no nuisance or hazard to the community. I copied the Board of Supervisors, the entity that supervises them all, and included a cover letter asking for clarification and documentation of this issue.

=================
Clint,

I've been here for quite a long while now. So far, the stories one hears about AHB seem quite fanciful, to say the least. If AHB are real, and perhaps they are, they havent been so overtly aggressive, persistent, or invasive of existing colonies as reports of their exploits have been greatly exaggerated. 

I don't quite agree with the "party line" as concerns AHB. I do agree that overly aggressive bees should be quickly requeened or destroyed, if necessary. But I do think testing the DNA of every hive in the USA and then destroying those that flunk would be a mistake. After all, though some "Caucasians" can be criminals, I wouldn't wish to be exterminated because I was "Caucasian". Fascism just isn't my favorite style.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Bottom line is zoning enforcement were actually 
> requiring me to get a zoning change of use 
> permit, outlined in the general zoning articles.

A "change of use" would imply that beekeeping was
somehow an unacceptable use for land zoned the
way your land is zoned. The enforcement guy
should explain to you exactly WHICH zoning
classification is one in which it is permitted
to keep bees, and show you exactly where it says
in plain English that one may not engage in an
"agricultural hobby" such as beekeeping in a
normal "residential" zoning area.

> Seemed to me that a, zoning change of use 
> permit could be required for just about 
> anything, even parking my car in a different 
> position.

Nope, if you look at a typical list of "zoning
use" list, it divides things along fairly
broad lines, like "industrial", "retail",
"residential", and "agricultural". The trick
is that your "use" is equivalent to someone who
gardens, or has pets, perfectly normal "hobby
activities", as it is clear that your home is
there. When one is talking about someone's home,
a WIDE range of not-for-profit activities are
permitted under the banner of "hobby", and there
is no way that the enforcement group can claim
that your current "use" requires any sort of
"change of use".

A "change of use" most often requires notices in
the paper and a public hearing. This sort of
thing happens all the time when one wants to
do something like turn an old home into a
doctor's office, or put a strip club in next to
an elementary school. But again, there is NO WAY
that what you are doing can be called a "change
of use", so demand chapter and verse of the
zoning regs.


Tucson... yeah, sounds like someone has gone
postal about "AHB", what did you expect, given
all the negative press?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Jim,

Our parcel is zoned SH (Suburban Homestead).

A portion of the code concerning beekeeping begins:
"E. Beekeeping is permitted in all zones subject to the requirements of this section:
1. Density. Except in the Institutional Reserve (IR), Rural Homestead (RH) and industrial zones (CPI, CI-1, CI-2, CI-3) wherein one colony is allowed per 2,500 square feet, the following maximum number of colonies per lot area apply:
a. One-quarter acre or less: 2 colonies
b. More than 1/4 acre to less than 1/2 acre: 4 colonies
c. One-half acre to less than 36,000 square feet: 6 colonies
d. 36,000 square feet to one acre: 8 colonies
e. Greater than one acre: 8 colonies plus one colony per additional 2,500 square feet of lot area above one acre."

The subject property is 1.04 acres.

Though I spent all-told more than an hour on the phone with zoning enforcement discussing the particulars, I was never able to pin them down to any sort of explanation as to how this permit requirement applied to my case. Best he could answer was that his supervisor told him to treat my case this way. Not a very satisfying answer.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Sounds like except for a possible valid concern
over the *number* of hives in any one yard,
you are 100% *unconditionally* allowed to keep
your bees under the clear language of the zoning
regulations as they stand.

I'd go to the head of the department, hand him
his own regulations as they apply to beekeeping,
and ask him why his department is waisting their
time _and yours_ over a point that is clearly
addressed in their own regulations.

If he declines to agree to drop the matter on
the spot, I'd go up the chain of command. Mayor,
city manager, town council, whatever.

They wrote the rules, and you are following them.
Don't stand for a run-around. Demand that they
drop the matter at once, or face the wrath of both
their superiors and the press.

And yes, I'd go to the press. They _love_ "city hall
makes life hell for citizen" stories.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

And I would move my hives back in case there is something fishy going on where they want to change the "use" of your property. You've been keeping bees there for 10 years +, so if they are looking to change the zoning as it applies to its use, they have to consider grandfathering in people whom currently use the property in agriculture or any other current "use". The only reason I am allowed to do certain agriculture activities on my property is because of such a grandfather clause that applies to property "use". In my case, as long as the use dosen't change, the new zoning use rules don't apply. If the "use" stops for 6 months or more, the "use" must then comply with the current zoning. My property has had similar agricultue activity for a steady 50+ years. And you better believe I would fight tooth and nail to maintain those rights.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I received copies of the reports from the Health Department, both expound how they were in close proximity to the hives without any hint of aggressive behaviors and the first one quotes the complainer as being "freaked out" simply by the thought of my bees being that close to her. She being, therefore unable to participate in any outdoor activities at her home.

Of course, zoning enforcement drove by on the 17th and issued us, 3 - $750 citations. Two for my brother's hobbies, playing with old cars (keeping a junkyard) and having his workspace outdoors (open storage). Incidentally they wrote my citation for keeping 6 empty swarm-catching boxes *(though they didn't realize it)*. The hearing is on the 11th of May. My brother is going to clean up his junk yard, thank goodness. I'm going to ask them why I was cited for trying to catch and remove feral, potentially AHB's from the area? I will also ask them for an explanation concerning the imaginary requirement for a "Beekeeping permit" should I return any bees to the premises in the future. Either way, that will wait a few months while the wall of 25 foot tall Arundo donax (Giant Spanish reed) grows to obscure most of the entire property from any neighbors view.

[ April 23, 2006, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Clemens ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's wonderful to live in a free country.


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## Irsqu911 (Nov 14, 2005)

Sounds like its time for your elected offical to get involved. 
Personally at this point since it seems like your getting jacked around over minor details, I would go to the next city or county board meeting and during open forum present your case and ask them whats going on. 
Usually have about 5 or 10 minutes per person to present your case...or just blab if your from my town..But if you get a nice statement prepaired. A list of contacts in the government offices you have been working with and a list of your concerns your problems might be solved by the next meeting. 
I have done something simmular as a last ditch effort over a minor problem a few years ago and they solved the problem in 2 days.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Following is some more information about this case: The preliminary hearing is at 9:00 am, today.

These are the statutes referred to in the citation:*
--------------------------
18.95.030 B4
4. The erection, construction, reconstruction or alteration of any structure, or the use of any property or structure, not in conformance with this code constitutes a violation;
*[How am I not in conformance?]*

18.07.030 E
E. Beekeeping is permitted in all zones subject to the requirements of this section:
1. Density. Except in the Institutional Reserve (IR), Rural Homestead (RH) and industrial zones (CPI, CI-1, CI-2, CI-3) wherein one colony is allowed per 2,500 square feet, the following maximum number of colonies per lot area apply:
a. One-quarter acre or less: 2 colonies
b. More than 1/4 acre to less than 1/2 acre: 4 colonies
c. One-half acre to less than 36,000 square feet: 6 colonies
d. 36,000 square feet to one acre: 8 colonies
e. Greater than one acre: 8 colonies plus one colony per additional 2,500 square feet of lot area above one acre. *(I was keeping only 6 colonies)*
2. Bee hives shall be kept a minimum of thirty feet from any exterior lot boundary line.
3. Except for lots with an area greater than one acre *(the property in question is 1.04 acres, making it exempt from this requirement, yet I have established such a barrier of shade-cloth for my own convenience) *, a barrier shall be erected that will prevent bees from flying through it. Such barrier shall:
a. Be at least six feet in height and shall consist of a dense plant or hedge or any opaque constructed material;
b. Extend at least eighteen feet beyond the hive(s) in both directions.
4. Fresh, clean watering facilities for bees shall be provided on said premises.
5. Upon determination by a zoning inspector that a property owner is not in compliance with the zoning standards for beekeeping, the Pima County health department shall be notified. If the same property owner is determined to be keeping a colony or colonies deemed a nuisance or hazard by the health department, the course of action shall be determined by the health inspector in cooperation with the zoning inspector. *(when does zoning perform the requirements of this paragraph?) (The Health Department has made two separate inspections, having received their own complaints. I have copies available. My bees pass with flying colors both times.) * 
6. Exceptions:
a. An exception to the provisions of this subsection shall be permitted for a period not to exceed sixty days for bees actively participating in commercial agricultural activities.
b. Nothing in this subsection shall be deemed or construed to prohibit the keeping of bees located or kept within a government facility, a school, or a university facility for the purpose of study or observation.

-------------------------------

*The statute, repeated above, as specifically pertains to Beekeeping, clearly outlines the requirements of the beekeeper and those of the county officials. The purpose of having a specific statute that applies to Beekeeping is to define the requirements for keeping bees. By complying with this specific statute, how can I then be in violation of another statute? If this were true it would be impossible to know which statutes were controlling in every situation, and furthermore it would result in every Beekeeper in Pima County to be in violation.*

Thanks KONASDAD for your input.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I think that the first (and only) issue for the
hearing is for you to demand that they explain
exactly what section of the zoning laws apply
to this situation, and force them to focus on
the "plain language of the regulations, not
open to creative interpretation".

It short, the regs say what they say, and YOU
are not required to explain how you are in
compliance, THEY are required to point out to
you, in public, which specific and clearly
stated requirement you have violated.

Too late for the "preliminary hearing", but:

If they talk about "intent", shut 'em down
with a repeated demand for a *specific*
requirement that prevents your "use".

If they taking about anything else but the
exact wording of the regs, demand that they
get their lawyer in there to explain to them
what their own regs mean.

Oh yeah, don't forget to invite the local
media, and tell them all about how the existing
regs seem to be something that they make up as
they go along.


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

You know, every now and then you end up with a hot-hive in the yard that wants to sting you when you first arrive. I have found out that after extensively working that hive, (scraping burr comb, re-arranging brood and honey frames, reversing and other manipulations), that hive doesn't seem as inclined to sting when first entering the yard for some period of days after that. I would suspect that they were too busy getting the hive "in order" again.

Just an observation (a bit late in this case tho).

Thanx.

[ May 11, 2006, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: John Seets ]


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Jim,
Turns out this was just the arraignment hearing.
All I got was an actual hearing date of 15 June 2006.
---------------------
John,
The thing is, no one was ever stung. The Health Department quoted the complainant as being aware of the bees presence on my property, that they were in an enclosure, but that the enclosure did not confine them, "just knowing they were there, freaked her out". Their proximity, "kept her from having any outdoor family gatherings". They'd been there for more than 10 years, but I guess either she was recent, or she had just noticed their presence.

Like someone living near an airport, always afraid that the next plane on approach is going to crash into them.

[ May 12, 2006, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Joseph Clemens ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Turns out this was just the arraignment hearing.
> All I got was an actual hearing date of 15 June 2006.

Gee, I thought that they would have been nice
enough to tell you what specific section of
the zoning regulations was being violated, and how.

It is nice that you have until June 15th, but
not knowing what you are "accused" of makes it
tough for you to prepare any sort of "rebuttal"
or "defense", so I'd say the same task faces
you, finding out what *specific* section
of the zoning regs is being broken.

So, go find out, and if the head of the zoning
board can't tell you what you are "charged with",
make that a big part of your statement when the
hearing goes down.

I have a tee-shirt that says "_Skateboarding is
not a crime_", perhaps we all need tee-shirts
that say "_Beekeeping is not a crime_".


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

At this hearing they simply received my pleading (my plee was [responsible], the options were, responsible/not responsible/no contest). I didn't even need to say a single word.

Keep in mind that they seem to be attempting to confuse the issue by also citing us for having about 1/2 dozen inoperable vehicles (my brother's hobby), and also a citation for the clutter that goes with the vehicles. The plan now is to clear the vehicles and clutter in the next several weeks. Have them reinspect to then set aside those citations. I will need to return at least one hive by that time (I plan to use one of the Italian Cordovan's - so gentle you'd have to squeeze them against your skin to even get them to sting) - so they won't set aside the beekeeping citation, then I can take that "Beekeeping without a permit" issue to the actual hearing. I guess I'm going to have to call their bluff.

[ May 12, 2006, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Joseph Clemens ]


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## AJ Christ (Jun 8, 2005)

Consider hiring a lawyer and filing suit against the inspectors for frivilous harassment. Seek damages and legal expenses.

Also consider getting the TV news or the newspaper on your side. They usually like being on the side of the person being persecuted by big government.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Wouldn't you want to plea, "not responsible"?

I'm with Jim. Ask for specifics on what they intend to present for evidence. You have a right to know. It's disclosure.


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## Pugs (Jul 15, 2004)

You never know what you'll be charged with. A friend was booked and charged with having a commerical dog kennel without a license, no rabies vacines for the dogs and unlicensed dogs.

They were arrested in January, the trial was in April, and the judge just found them innocent on May 11th. Seems there are, by Oregon law, three reasons to require a kennel license. They didn't match any of the three reasons. Oregon law has an exception to the rabies vacines, which they met. The county had nothing in its laws on how to get a dog license when you don't have to have a rabies vacine. The county DA still took them to trial.

They are trying to suppress the evidence for three other charges (which don't stand a snow ball's change in a very hot place). Seems animal control came onto the property twice without permission and another time lied to a judge to get a warrant.

What a waste of time and taxpayer money and their money. 

Ugh, I keep hearing stuff like this and it raises my stress levels. 

Good luck with your hearing.

Pugs


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

you pled responsible? seems to me that may have been a mistake. As for fighting or rolling over, sometimes you have to take them to the mat, come what may.


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## jensjona (Jan 26, 2011)

For those of you how are interested, the following link has the lastest info concerning Pima County Zoning. See Ch18.07.30

http://www.pimaxpress.com/CodeEnforce/default.htm

http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=16119&stateId=3&stateName=Arizona

http://library.municode.com/showDocumentFrame.aspx?clientID=16119&docID=1


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Michael Bush said:


> It's wonderful to live in a free country.


 Are we calling $2250.00 in fines, a $25.00 bee keeping permit, court costs, lord knows how many Registered Letters, and Clemens’s time "free". 

:lpf: I know you didn't mean that the way it reads, I do understand sarcasms, I completely agree with your sentiment.

What the heck happened Joseph? Did the National Association of Zoning Board Compliance tell your local chapter they were going to have to pay their own greens fees this year at the winter Zoning Board Compliance convention in Tahiti? Please keep us informed on how this works out and good luck.


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## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

weren't all the posts, up until today, from 2006?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

My next to last magistrate hearing, the magistrate asked for a copy of all the documentation I had accumulated concerning the beekeeping issue. The next week, after the magistrate had examined my documentation - it finally worked out that I was fined $5.00 by the magistrate for failing to obtain the $25.00 beekeeping permit. That was the end of the beekeeping permit hassle. He made a point to explain that the $5.00 permit was the best he could do for me, that he was constrained by his job description. The original inspector (a former law enforcement officer), had resigned long before I arrived at this point. I can only guess that he was not comfortable doing this type of work.

Then in a few more months, they took us to court over issues concerning my brothers collection of old vehicles. They had us walk some paperwork through various offices to get a permit applications approved, we had to pay about $100, for the process.

I can only assume that we have some busy-body neighbors and the county zoning enforcement have nothing better to do.


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## Beetrucker74 (Oct 10, 2010)

But I was under the idea that there was not a permit to get.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

I don't know all the facts but I was of the same opinion. I quess they must have one of thos living breathing zoning code law thingies out there now like some claim our Constitution is.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

The way the magistrate explained it, was that the person in charge of zoning enforcement was responsible for "interpreting" the code. Whatever she said the code meant, that's what it meant. I guess if the code said, "black", she could say it meant, "white". And, it seems, she had apparently decided the code required a permit for beekeeping. Supposedly a few beekeepers had already been entrained to obtain their, "permits". However, I have never met one of these beekeepers (though I know many of my local, fellow beekeepers), and I have been unable to discover if any beekeeper in the county had ever actually obtained, said permit. When I asked for any name of a beekeeper holding such a permit, no names were provided to me.

I hate to say this, but it is true, that neither I, nor my mother, or brother, or all three of us collectively, have any financial means to engage an attorney's assistance.

I'm afraid, my few encounters with "zoning", have left me with the impression that zoning, especially zoning enforcement, seems to be an easy way to disguise oppression and circumvent due process (whatever that may be). Anyone, especially some of us without financial means to defend ourselves are pretty much at the mercy of zoning officials.
********
I have just been considering what I might possibly expect if any Pima county officials read this thread, especially since I use my real name. Honestly, I am not completely comfortable with where this thought takes me.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

The grandfather of the zoning officer who responded to a bee complaint against me, was a beekeeper. The zoning officer then helped me obtain a permit for the maximum amount of bees permissible, and has also referred bee removal jobs to me. Don't try to fight City Hall.


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## blueline (Mar 15, 2010)

I recently went thru something similar, when our Area Planning decided to pass an ordinance on beekeeping without any input from beekeepers, or even looking at ordinances from other areas. We got it stopped in a hurry and probably one of the biggest assets were 3 local attorneys who are also beekeepers. If I were in your shoes I would look for a beekeeping attorney in your area and give them a call.

Blueline


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

a couple of skunks in compainers mailbox would have been a good idea....been know to do such things.


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## gpost (Feb 11, 2010)

Beekeeping is permitted in all zones subject to the requirements of this section:

1.
Density. Except in the Institutional Reserve (IR), Rural Homestead (RH) and industrial zones (CPI, CI-1, CI-2, CI-3) wherein one colony is allowed per 2,500 square feet, the following maximum number of colonies per lot area apply: 

a.
One-quarter acre or less: 2 colonies

b.
More than ¼ acre to less than ½ acre: 4 colonies

c.
One-half acre to less than 36,000 square feet: 6 colonies

d.
36,000 square feet to one acre: 8 colonies

e.
Greater than one acre: 8 colonies plus one colony per additional 2,500 square feet of lot area above one acre.

2.
Bee hives shall be kept a minimum of thirty feet from any exterior lot boundary line.

3.
Except for lots with an area greater than one acre, a barrier shall be erected that will prevent bees from flying through it. Such barrier shall: 

a.
Be at least six feet in height and shall consist of a dense plant or hedge or any opaque constructed material;

b.
Extend at least eighteen feet beyond the hive(s) in both directions.

4.
Fresh, clean watering facilities for bees shall be provided on said premises.

5.
Upon determination by a zoning inspector that a property owner is not in compliance with the zoning standards for beekeeping, the Pima County health department shall be notified. If the same property owner is determined to be keeping a colony or colonies deemed a nuisance or hazard by the health department, the course of action shall be determined by the health inspector in cooperation with the zoning inspector. 

6.
Exceptions:

a.
An exception to the provisions of this subsection shall be permitted for a period not to exceed sixty days for bees actively participating in commercial agricultural activities. 

b.
Nothing in this subsection shall be deemed or construed to prohibit the keeping of bees located or kept within a government facility, a school, or a university facility for the purpose of study or observation.


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## SPRUCE BEE (Mar 14, 2009)

SBM, :thumbsup:

Skunks in the complainer's mailbox. :lpf:Been there, done that!!!! 

SPRUCE BEE


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