# Layens horizontal hive question



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Like I said and re-said many times - 2-3 inches under frame space is sufficient for your particular design.
If you want to bother with eco-floor (moss, etc) - whatever makes you happy works too.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

I have a thought on Layens design. In general I think it should be deeper, at least enough to accommodate Langstroth frames turned sideways. This allows for 2 medium Langstroth frames to be connected at the bottom bars with a connector on top for ears. The existence of easily and economically available standard equipment such as frames and foundation and so forth should come into the design of "new" designs.

As for eco-floors, keep in mind the reasons for doing so. You are trying to create a secondary environment that you must also maintain. Hoping for pseudoscorpions and other such things among other things. But you are also creating a nice semi soil environment for larva to pupate. If you don't have an environment with things to predate such things, you are basically making it easier for SHB and other critters to thrive.

Bottom space in a hive is not as critical thing, because bee-space doesn't really come into play. Think of a top bar hive. It has inches and inches of bottom space until the bees build comb on the top bars. Same thing with frames. If there is "too much" space below the frame, the bees will treat the underside of the frame the same way they would a top bar.

Here is a sketch of 2 mediums with a connector. But it will be about 19-3/8" tall.


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## Bob trimnal (Feb 28, 2021)

Absinthe said:


> I have a thought on Layens design. In general I think it should be deeper, at least enough to accommodate Langstroth frames turned sideways. This allows for 2 medium Langstroth frames to be connected at the bottom bars with a connector on top for ears. The existence of easily and economically available standard equipment such as frames and foundation and so forth should come into the design of "new" designs.
> 
> As for eco-floors, keep in mind the reasons for doing so. You are trying to create a secondary environment that you must also maintain. Hoping for pseudoscorpions and other such things among other things. But you are also creating a nice semi soil environment for larva to pupate. If you don't have an environment with things to predate such things, you are basically making it easier for SHB and other critters to thrive.
> 
> ...


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## Bob trimnal (Feb 28, 2021)

Thank you very much


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Bob trimnal said:


> My brother and I. Recently built three layens horizontal Hives 28 frames
> in doing are studying some people put forth the idea to extend the depth. Of the hive box 3 1/2 inches To accommodate Peat Moss in the bottom of the hive To make Thr hive more like the inside of a tree hollow and control moisture I live here in upper state South Carolina with lots of humidity
> I recently read a post about someone saying using Pete Moss it’s not a good idea does anybody have any thoughts on that or experience if I’m not to use Pete Moss do I need to raise the bottom
> Floor of the hive or will the extra distance make a difference to the bees?


Hi Bob,
from your post seems the hives are built.
So give them a try the original way you designed them, On BS here it is not likely more than 3-5 % of the people use peat moss in the hive so with out the moss is not a serious set back IMO.

in the tree hollow as you suggested the bees are 15 to 30 feet in the air, will you also lift them up to better simulate the tree hive hollow condition?

GG


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Bob trimnal said:


> My brother and I. Recently built three layens horizontal Hives 28 frames
> in doing are studying some people put forth the idea to extend the depth. Of the hive box 3 1/2 inches To accommodate Peat Moss in the bottom of the hive To make Thr hive more like the inside of a tree hollow and control moisture I live here in upper state South Carolina with lots of humidity
> I recently read a post about someone saying using Pete Moss it’s not a good idea does anybody have any thoughts on that or experience if I’m not to use Pete Moss do I need to raise the bottom
> Floor of the hive or will the extra distance make a difference to the bees?


Personally, I'd forget the peat moss idea and stick to what has been proven to work well over countless numbers of years. I've just posted some links to Layens-style hives over in the Warre/Compact Vertical Hive sub-forum, as the Ukrainian guy who made those videos runs both types of hive. Maybe I should have divided the links between there and here ? Anyway, they're well-worth watching. Some of his Layens-style hives have solid floors, some have 100% mesh open all year long. (but no peat moss  ) Many ways of skinning the proverbial cat.
'best
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Some of his Layens-style hives have solid floors, some have 100% mesh open all year long.


Due to the viewership interest in his channel, he made and is testing 1)solid floors, 2)mesh floors and 3)slotted floors.
This next summer 2021, it will be a year since he made that batch of the hives.
I personally like the "slotted bottoms", made a couple and also testing them.

His slotted bottoms (2:00 and so forth).


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## GWSBees (Feb 10, 2021)

GregB said:


> Like I said and re-said many times - 2-3 inches under frame space is sufficient for your particular design.
> If you want to bother with eco-floor (moss, etc) - whatever makes you happy works too.


Perhaps forgiveness rather than impatience would serve better.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

GWSBees said:


> Perhaps forgiveness rather than impatience would serve better.


You know this thread is almost 2 years old ?
You must be a master at holding your Patience for that long 😂


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## randallroller64 (Oct 16, 2021)

Bob trimnal said:


> My brother and I. Recently built three layens horizontal Hives 28 frames
> in doing are studying some people put forth the idea to extend the depth. Of the hive box 3 1/2 inches To accommodate Peat Moss in the bottom of the hive To make Thr hive more like the inside of a tree hollow and control moisture I live here in upper state South Carolina with lots of humidity
> I recently read a post about someone saying using Pete Moss it’s not a good idea does anybody have any thoughts on that or experience if I’m not to use Pete Moss do I need to raise the bottom
> Floor of the hive or will the extra distance make a difference to the bees?


If I wanted a larger space beneath the frames, I would place a screened platform with #8 hardware cloth, and beneath that put a layer of diatomaceous earth. Any varroa or SHB or pest larvae would be shredded by the crystals and the bees could not get to it.
Moisture in the hive is from the bees own respiration of warm, moist air. It rises upward. If absorbent material and ventilation is above the frames, it will trap and dry the moisture.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

In my experience - a horizontal hive should have the entrance made as a drawer. so you can clean out the bottom and see mite drop.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

randallroller64 said:


> If I wanted a larger space beneath the frames, I would place a screened platform with #8 hardware cloth, and beneath that put a layer of diatomaceous earth. Any varroa or SHB or pest larvae would be shredded by the crystals and the bees could not get to it.
> Moisture in the hive is from the bees own respiration of warm, moist air. It rises upward. If absorbent material and ventilation is above the frames, it will trap and dry the moisture.


Absorbent media will not remove the moisture, it stores it.
I do not wish to store water in my hive. Moisture stored will contribute to humidity levels.
If the lid is insulated the water will condense on the walls where the bees can drink it if needed, and any extra will run out the bottom.
If the lid is not insulated the condensation will occur directly over the bees and drip on them.
If there is upper venting to prevent that, precious heat is lost.


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## randallroller64 (Oct 16, 2021)

JustBees said:


> Absorbent media will not remove the moisture, it stores it.
> I do not wish to store water in my hive. Moisture stored will contribute to humidity levels.
> If the lid is insulated the water will condense on the walls where the bees can drink it if needed, and any extra will run out the bottom.
> If the lid is not insulated the condensation will occur directly over the bees and drip on them.
> If there is upper venting to prevent that, precious heat is lost.


I use moisture boxes with wood shavings above duck canvas. These are vented. There is no moisture accumulation. 
As for heat loss, bees do not heat their hives. They heat their cluster. Often I have felt down inside the wood shavings. It is quite warm. On good days, I can tip the moisture box up to see bees festooning on the cloth and very active on the candy boards below.
One very interesting thing to try is a thermal imaging app on a smart phone. You can see where the live cluster is in your hive.
If I had a flat, uninsulated surface at the top, there would in fact be condensation. There is not. In fact, the bee candy uses some of the moisture to soften and allow the bees to feed readily.
I am sold on using the moisture boxes. I still lose bees like anyone else, but these boxes have made a vast improvement.
I took this idea from beekeepers in Canada. It gets cold up there.Very cold. They would sneer at what we call cold. Yet bees survive. Bees can be cold. They cannot be cold and wet. I choose to keep them dry.


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## randallroller64 (Oct 16, 2021)

JustBees said:


> In my experience - a horizontal hive should have the entrance made as a drawer. so you can clean out the bottom and see mite drop.


Correct. I built my own where the bottom is hinged. The permanent surface is screened. When time to clean I simply unclasp the bottom and let it swing down. Any build up on the screen I use a wire brush. In spring I clean inside and out by shifting the active colony to one side or the other.
An alcohol wash is a much more accurate method for counting mites so I do not mess with sticky boards.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

randallroller64 said:


> As for heat loss, bees do not heat their hives. They heat their cluster. Often I have felt down inside the wood shavings. It is quite warm.


so then the inside is warm, how could that be if bees do not heat the hive.

A cluster that is heated can and does loose some heat.
the cluster is in the box, so the heat escapes into the box.
from there it escapes into the outside. How fast is the crux of the insulation

so there is heat in the box, and sure the bees only heat the cluster, but if well insulated the escaped heat from the cluster heats the box.
AND if outside is 15 F and the inside is 35F  20 degree difference, can happen, IMO the cluster needs less heat to stay where it needs to, when and if the inside hive temp is warmer that the outside air.. This is dependant on the size of the cluster, the size of the Hive and air flow of course.
too small cluster in a large hive will not raise the temp much inside the hive, think 3 people in a warehouse, they do not affect the ware house temp much.
Large cluster in a smallish hive, can have a large effect, think 5 people in a closet, in some time the closet warms.
Large cluster in a smallish hive, with excess ventilation. think 5 people in a closet with out a celling or roof, again not much warmth stays in the closet.

insulation has to do some good or we would not use it in homes, to help with heating and cooling, bees heat and cool, hence the same benefit, or feature, depending on your point of view. 

sitting by the fire
GG

like the 3 little bears, it needs to be "just right" for the cluster size, and outside temperature.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

randallroller64 said:


> bees do not heat their hives. They heat their cluster.


Bees heat their surrounding *un-intentionally.*
Just like I heat my office un-intentionally with my body heat.

This is because both bee cluster and my body output heat via the well described losses (conduction, convection, radiation) - basic physics.

However significant or insignificant we heat our surrounding depends on few factors - the dwelling envelope insulation, volume of the cavity, etc, etc.

So of course, the bees *unintentionally *heat their hives - even though they don't mean it.
They only *mean *to heat their cluster.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> so then the inside is warm, how could that be if bees do not heat the hive.
> 
> A cluster that is heated can and does loose some heat.
> the cluster is in the box, so the heat escapes into the box.
> ...





Gray Goose said:


> so then the inside is warm, how could that be if bees do not heat the hive.
> 
> A cluster that is heated can and does loose some heat.
> the cluster is in the box, so the heat escapes into the box.
> ...


GG I think we are singing out of the same hymn book.
A bit of exaggeration just to draw attention to the facts: If we were to build us a hive of 3/4 steel plate one could casually observe that the bees did not heat it! But I think we could all agree that the box dissipated a lot of heat; where did it come from? Now if you went to another extreme and also put, say, R 40 insulation on the weather side of the box, it would indeed register that it had been heated. Where did that come from.

Granted the bees do not intend or need to heat the box but they do lose considerable heat to it unintentionally.

The upper surfaces of the hive are responsible for something like 3/4 of a colonies heat loss so insulating the sides pays relatively poorer dividends compared to upper surfaces and many locations can ignore the losses there.

Where we may be marginal on population, food stores, or mite control or some other contributing conditions, a bit of side insulation may just save our hides.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> Where we may be marginal on population, food stores, or mite control or some other contributing conditions, a bit of side insulation may just save our hides.


True and agree
another place I see the difference is the "poop outs"
Bees CAN eat carbs and shiver day after day. However if they cannot get out to poop then they have a limit as to how much honey they can eat until the spring "release"

In the insulated hives, I rarely see poop on the combs and hive parts.
when I had the upper entrance to "vent" the moisture, I seen if quite often.

so In a short winter not an issue, long time frames of no flight, the size of the bee gut is the limiting factor on how much heat they can produce until that "time" we all have .... ok be right back...

GG


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## randallroller64 (Oct 16, 2021)

GregB said:


> Bees heat their surrounding *un-intentionally.*
> Just like I heat my office un-intentionally with my body heat.
> 
> This is because both bee cluster and my body output heat via the well described losses (conduction, convection, radiation) - basic physics.
> ...


There really isn't an argument here. Bees cluster for a reason. Incidental heat is just that.
But connecting a few dots with overwintering, TF, etc.
Unless he has changed, and he is free to jump in, Michael Bush is TF, runs 8 frame mediums, and leaves the bottom screen open on his hives through winter. I left one hive open screened last winter, and that colony was more robust in the spring than the others. I wrapped my hives in 1" rigid insulation one winter and lost 50%. There goes the incidental heat theory. My guess is the more insulation the less ventilation, but if I knew everything I would pontificate rather than speculate.
I have tried TF along with folks who have never done anything else. With the right genetics and isolation, the greater likelihood of success. I no longer go treatment free, but use passive treatments and brood breaks. What I do not want to do is generate mite bombs for neighboring beekeepers.
I know the arguments very well. On the one hand, by treating aggressively, we are creating a super race of mites and weakened bees. If we don't treat, be assured that we will not achieve fixed mite resistance. Randy Oliver has done this for a long time and has only attained 7% fixed resistance on carefully controlled bees.
My own opinion for what it is worth is that the varroa problem will only be solved at the microbiological level. Research has been done on RNa interference. That in itself is a huge risk to be taking with so many possible adverse effects.
Anyway, there are many good mentors to follow out there. For newbies- join a group and research. For oldies, be willing to tear the scabs from our thinking on occasion!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

randallroller64 said:


> I left one hive open screened last winter, and that colony was more robust in the spring than the others. I wrapped my hives in 1" rigid insulation one winter and lost 50%. There goes the incidental heat theory.


Incidental heat and wintering success have very flaky connection IF any connection at all (notable exceptions - mini-colonies and extreme north cases).
There is not much consistent theory to talk about in this regard.
If anyone winters on the cold side - this is me, right here.

A single colony on screened bottom doing well (vs. the others) - means nothing.
Do at least 50/50 on good enough colony numbers - do this for 3-5 years - then report back and we listen. 
This is not a supporting argument as is presented now.

I don't see how all your other TF-related talk is even related to the original talk of this thread anymore.
I have done enough of the hard TF in real live on, specifically, the deep horizontal hives (which is what I run).
But this is irrelevant here.


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## randallroller64 (Oct 16, 2021)

GregB said:


> Incidental heat and wintering success have very flaky connection IF any connection at all (notable exceptions - mini-colonies and extreme north cases).
> There is not much consistent theory to talk about in this regard.
> If anyone winters on the cold side - this is me, right here.
> 
> ...


If I reported on everything I have done over the years on hive configurations, TF, etc. there would be no room for others to comment. I am not basing an argument on anything, nor am I challenging anyone else. That seems to be your intention, but I don't bite at everything.
Beekeepers have more opinions than some have brain cells.
As for Layens, this was my first year trying. Failed. Horizontal Langstroth- so far very promising. I have also run a double-deep Russian hive with good success. 
I keep bees for the enjoyment of the hobby. Most are great folks to talk to. Those who talk the most I tend to ignore.
But, all that said, have a wonderful day. After keeping bees for forty years I have heard it all from every personality. 
That is my incidental heat. Bask.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> A cluster that is heated can and does loose some heat.
> the cluster is in the box, so the heat escapes into the box.
> from there it escapes into the outside. How fast is the crux of the insulation


I am interested in how the *speed* of ventilation affects the heat and moisture within the hive. I went into my 3 Layens yesterday to check sugar bricks and moisture levels. I am wintering them on 9,7,7 frames respectively. I only have lower 3/4" round entrances on them all, the two 7 frames also have upper discs set to a few holes, the 9 had no upper ventilation at all.

My thought was initially to go with no upper vents to decrease heat loss but I found that one 7 frame had excessive frost build up on the hive walls outside the follower, as did the 9 frame, no idea what is inside the cluster area as I cannot look. I put in a bee disc in the upper insulation box, above the 2.5" insulation and down pillow, that is set to the pinholes to vent the moisture as it seems excessive. 

Last year I had upper entrances on these hives and I got to thinking that maybe slowing down, rather than stopping the air movement, with pinhole discs rather than a fully open upper entrance, would both decrease honey consumption and allow for excess moisture to escape. My 3/4 inch bottom entrance is covered with a plastic board and piled with snow so I would assume that the air entering is not as cold as the outside air temps. and the vent above all the insulation will allow the moisture to escape while decreasing any chimney effects.

I have no idea what I am doing, I am a duck out of water here as my understanding of thermal dynamics is minimal and reading it makes my eyes sleepy. Although I do muddle thru all the posts refusing to give in LOL. 

I did not feel that the amount of thick frost was a good thing in the long run so now my no upper entrance hives all have minimal venting. Still, not one poop out this year and three live hives.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

@ursa_minor: I have not had a peak into my two layens style colonies to judge the frost. I am pretty heavily insulated. No upper vents at all and a bottom entrance on each that is about an inch high by seven inches long. Wide open aside from the shrew and mouse screen covering the openings. I dont see much functionally different from the Langs that have no upper entrance and they are fine. No hoar frost. The langs though do have the entire 3/4 X 14" entrances wide open except for the critter screens. As long as you have plastic or similar over the frame tops, I dont think you have to worry about it affecting the bees even if it melts some time.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

not trying to confuse you but my thoughts on the "frost" on the divider is :
when it warms can the melt run off with out wetting the bees?
if there is frost then the "moisture" in the hive is freezing, IE in hive less than freezing, does that mean to much ventilation as it is cold in there?
is there frost on the other hives IE are they all frosted or just the ones with the upper vents?

when I vented, I seen slow moisture escape, like the seep on a pile of manure in winter.
when it got real cold the moisture froze like on a mustache and made hoar frost till it closed off the venting.
this was with a 3/8 x 3/4 vent Inner cover area. these bees had poop in the hive so I assumed they had to eat too much to keep warm (I could be a wrong thought)

do you have the plastic and blanket over the 7 frames and dividers? I would think frost behind the divider is somewhat expected, on the bee side of the divider, depends on the outside temps... Around 0F It can be normal.

when I was a kid one time my dad and I opened a 3 deep in winter and there was an inch of ice on the inside of the hive, frame 1 and 10 were completely in ice, they came out strong and by dandelions we did a 1 for 3 split to prevent swarming.
the frost is not a show stopper, Unless it is robbing too much moisture from the bees in the hive.

be alert to a warm up where the water runs on the BB and refreezes , blocks the entrance.

at this point not sure what way to go. If you can pile snow around the hive I would think the inside stabilizes.

sorry I can't offer more insight.
take notes in case it works, or not to consider the adjustments.

GG


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> not trying to confuse you but my thoughts on the "frost" on the divider is :
> when it warms can the melt run off with out wetting the bees?


My divider is 2.5" rigid foam covered in plastic and the frost is on the side of the empty spare cavity as well as the cavity walls. It seems to me that the air is moving out under the divider, as it is at least 4 inches from the bottom of the hive, and into the cavity and then up over the insulation. I am assuming that because the heaviest frost is in that space and not on the lid that this space must be the coldest in the hive. 

No run off worries and no ice clogging entrances, my entrance is up at least 3 inches from the floor. There is no frost on the plastic above the bees. Besides I do have a blanket over that plastic to absorb any moisture.

I assume that letting out this moist air would not really be a game changer other than limiting mould and possibly increasing honey consumption. Maybe my bottom entrances need to be a little larger but, that will be next year, I have no way of doing it now aside from dismantling the insulation and I won't do that.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> My divider is 2.5" rigid foam covered in plastic and the frost is on the side of the empty spare cavity as well as the cavity walls. It seems to me that the air is moving out under the divider, as it is at least 4 inches from the bottom of the hive, and into the cavity and then up over the insulation. I am assuming that because the heaviest frost is in that space and not on the lid that this space must be the coldest in the hive.


frost in the empty space I would not worry about.
Yes you may get a bit of mold in the spring, I do in my insulated hives.
I tried to look at that as hmm penicillin is mold, blue cheese is mold , Maybe they are fine with mold.
I have found that propolis tincture applied to the wood surface can help with mold, if it gets nutty then , Move the bees into a different hive, in the spring, sun dry the hive, light sand and paint the inner walls with Kills II or some type of mildew resistant paint.
if the bees are warm and dry and can regulate the humidity then IMO you are fine.
what moisture is leaking out is frosting up, before it can exit the hive is the deal.
ventilating that space would be like a single wall hive, with the rigid foam maybe ok, but IMO ideally this space is 20ish degrees warmer than outside air temp and breeze/draft free.
Might try a pillow case or grain sack with wool sawdust shavings old towels in the space next year, this space is "insulative" approaching double wall, if filled, with some "insulation" the moisture would likely go out the entrance.

IMO it is an optical issue as long as the bees do not get wet.
And if on a warmer spring day they can water harvest maybe a good thing.
Dry to us humans is too dry for bees IMO

good observations ursa

GG


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregB said:


> Bees heat their surrounding *un-intentionally.*
> Just like I heat my office un-intentionally with my body heat.
> [..]
> So of course, the bees *unintentionally *heat their hives - even though they don't mean it.
> They only *mean *to heat their cluster.


Well expressed, Greg. 

I just want to make a small addition to the above. Sometimes I hear people talking about the bees either being 'clustered' - or *not *'clustered' - as if this is an *either/or *state: one state or the other. Whereas in practice clustering can take intermediate forms.
When bees are clustered tightly, then there will be minimal heat loss from the cluster. There'll always be some loss of course, but this will be minimal - whereas when the bees are loosely clustered, the cluster's insulating shell will be fairly porous, and quite a lot of heat will escape. And of course there are degrees of clustering between these two extremes. Which brings me to insulation.

If a cavity is well-insulated, then at least some of the heat escaping from the cluster will be retained within the hive - at least in the short term. Whether this is desirable or not depends largely on the external environment. In locations which experience a long and harsh Winter, such heat retention is generally considered to be a good thing, whereas in warmer locales this may not always be so.

In my own area, excessive insulation leading to warmer conditions inside the hive could actually be harmful, in that the bees would remain even more active than at present during the 'depth' of what passes for Winter here. Today is mid-January, with a daytime temp of 10 deg C (50 F) and it's raining yet again.
And this is pretty typical. Bees here don't die from the cold, they tend to die from starvation as a direct result of being too active during a period of the year when they really ought to be in a dormant state. So the last thing in the world I personally need is for a cluster to warm-up a highly insulated beehive and keep that cluster loose, or even cause the bees to break cluster completely at a time when foraging is either impossible or would be pointless if it wasn't, and then just eat, eat, eat. Which reminds me that I'd better get some fondant on earlier than usual this year.

"Horses for Courses", guys, ... 
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Today is mid-January, with a daytime temp of 10 deg C (50 F) and it's raining yet again.
> And this is pretty typical. Bees here don't die from the cold, they tend to die from starvation as a direct result of being too active during a period of the year when they really ought to be in a dormant state.


Exactly, LJ.

After the initial brutal start of the 2022/2023 winter (good weeding out of the misfits) - we have been in a non-stop thaw for 2-3 weeks now.
All snow is gone. 
Very large initial accumulation - ALL melted away.

The good part - this is perfect for my mini-colonies (already heavily insulated) - at their mini-sizes they can use any break in temperature they get.
I hope the winter stays this way for them.

The not so good part - regular sized colonies will be super-active if over-insulated.
But as I keep mine lightly insulated (on the cold side) - this ongoing winter also should be on the tolerable side for them - close to the perfect wintering temperatures so far - just bouncing within -5C and +5C.

So, indeed, the larger colonies need to be cooled IF the temps stay too warm as what we observe right now.
Double-walled setups that smooth the temp bounces would be very appropriate just about here and now.

No skiing though.


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## Meady Beekeeper (11 d ago)

GregB said:


> Exactly, LJ.
> 
> After the initial brutal start of the 2022/2023 winter (good weeding out of the misfits) - we have been in a non-stop thaw for 2-3 weeks now.
> All snow is gone.
> ...


What do you prefer to insulate with?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Meady Beekeeper said:


> What do you prefer to insulate with?


Minis - foam (still testing this - my first season).
Regulars - top only - few blankets over the plastic.


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## Meady Beekeeper (11 d ago)

GregB said:


> Minis - foam (still testing this - my first season).
> Regulars - top only - few blankets over the plastic.


So with your minis , that is a double wall with the foam sandwiched in between?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Meady Beekeeper said:


> So with your minis , that is a double wall with the foam sandwiched in between?


Moved my response to here:

(1) GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees. | Page 108 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


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