# Foundationless or Small Cell for new hives



## stacie (Feb 8, 2011)

Hey everyone, I spent the weekend putting together my first ever hives, with two packages of bees set to arrive in mid-May. 

I had initially planned to start them foundationless, but I also hope to go treatment-free (I suspect I'd intervene if a colony appeared to be overrun with mites) so I was hoping that some of you more experienced beeks might share your opinion on the relative merits of starting the hive bodies (10-frame deeps) with Mann Lake PF-100 vs. allowing the bees to draw natural cell. 

Also, what are the drawbacks of using plastic? The consensus seems to be that bees don't love plastic comb, so am I at increased risk of having colonies abscond?


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

if you want small cell, the best way to start is with SC bees. then I would use small cell foundation to start packages, at least the first box so they have something to walk around on.. when i use foundationless frames I put them between two frames of drawn comb or foundation so they will draw it out straight.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Agreed on all counts.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

PF-100's are plastic frame and foundation, not plastic comb. HoneySuperCell and Permacomb are plastic combs. Bees are sometimes a little reluctant to accept fresh plastic comb, but I've never had them balk at plastic foundation, at least not when the conditions were good for drawing comb.

BTW, PF-100, PF-105, PF-120, PF-125 are all 4.9mm cell size, the ones ending in "0" are white, those ending in "5" are black, the first two are for deeps, the last two are for mediums.


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## stacie (Feb 8, 2011)

Thanks Joseph, that's good info. I want to do everything I can to help the bees cope with mites, and the brood-cycle impact for varroa seems like it could be a significant assist. I'll go ahead and order the frames.


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## Risky Beesness (Dec 29, 2010)

I have a question related to this. My 1st bees are coming in nucs. If I want to go foundationless, should I place empty frames between the frames from the nucs or keep them together as they are in the nuc?


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

keep your nuc frames together(at least the ones that have brood on them). when you put your nuc into a standard hive, leave the brood together and put them in the center of the hive....then you could go every other frame foundationless on the outside but i usually give them comb or at least all foundation in the first box to give them a little legup then start giving them foundationless every other frame in the next box.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Only if they are really strong would I put ONE frame in the middle of the brood. After all you have only five frames and you are going to break up the brood nest. They have to fill that space with festooning bees to keep the brood warm and to draw the comb. If there are not enough bees for this they will lose brood to chilling.


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