# Young larva too young?



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Eggs are a problem, but I've never seen a well-functioning cell builder trash even the youngest larvae. I suspect that the problem was with the cell builder not the nicot.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

IMO, younger is better. While caste is determined by day 3, quality comes from larvae as close as possible, in age, to the egg. Caste determination isn't controlled by a switch that turns on or off.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

However, when you are learning to graft it is a lot easier, and you will still produce very good queens - if you select larva that are a few hours older. The ones that clearly look like larva - not just eggs with segment lines. Your grafting larva should be well stocked with jelly or you will probably damage them.

There are a lot of parts to the process that you have to learn - don't obsess over young larva to the point that it derails the whole thing. If you want to obsess do it over having a strong cell builder.


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## maynard (Jul 7, 2014)

Is there a paper or study about queen quality and larvae age? I'm certainly not doubting that it's true, but if there's good info around I'd like to see it.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm not talking about larva so big they could be used as fish bait - and I'm not arguing that younger isn't better if all other things are equal. I will say this - in my book if it hasn't been fed it is still an egg and not suitable for grafting. Then again I'm about 1/2 blind.

I can't tell the difference in a queen that is produced from the teenyest tinyest larva, and those from 8 hour old larva that are much easier to work with. I'm not saying that there isn't a difference - only that I can't see it.

There's a big difference between grafts that take and those that don't. You need grafts to take in order to learn the rest of the process - that's all I'm saying.

Do you think that ANY commercial queen producers are schlepping around looking for 90 minute old larva to graft?


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

David, he was using a nicot, so he did not graft. so the harming of the larva is excluded. 

yes, too young can be too young sometimes. also , your started or builder might be at blame. maybe you have no flow, or you did not had enough bees in it. I would wait a bit, until the larva is at least 24-48 h. I usually graft at 48h or older. I do not care for a 100% take on my frame, and I am happy with a 80%. usually I graft more than I need just to have a good margin of error. 

the younger the larva, the harder it is. they are very sensitive to heat changes and sun. so if you pulled larva that is too young and no jelly on it to keep it cool and hydrated, I can guarantee that in a matter of minutes they are almost all dead because of the exposure to sun, heat and air outside the hive. I graft older because they are more resilient and have already been taken in charge by bees, so I would say they are viable larvae.

good luck with your work and I hope this answers some questions. and remember there are as many beekeeping methods as beekeepers out there, listen , sort it out, and implement your own method, that works for you in your operation. what works for me in the south might not work for you in ND.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

In my mind, we as queen producers are always trying to approach the "gold standard" of queen rearing, which of course is the natural swarm response. In the swarm response, workers prepare queen cups, the queen lays in them, and the nurse bees begin their magic (I believe at the time of hatching, but this is just my belief). The closer we can get to the natural swarm response (I believe) the better our product will be. Are there diminishing returns? Probably so. Are the differences between just hatched and 12 hr larvae measurable? I don't know with certainty, perhaps there's been research to provide evidence. Honestly I haven't researched this, so I'm just reporting my belief. 

I think what David is suggesting (and I agree with) is: when learning the craft of grafting, don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough. Work within your abilities, but always strive to improve. 

However, the OP is working with the Nicot system. Although I own a graftless system I don't use it much, not because I think it doesn't work, its just too much hassle to do compared with grafting. However, if there is an advantage to graftless systems it may be exactly related to the thrust of this thread. Graftless systems give you the ability to transfer the smallest larvae with ease without any disturbance to the larvae. Again, is this advantage measurable? I don't know, but it feels right to me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If they have hatched they are old enough for queen rearing. If they are eggs they are too young...


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

Great replies! 

To be clear, I am using the nicot system, and only transferring cups with larva.

I started another starter last Sunday with 7 frames of capped brood above an excluder. I'll be introducing cup o' larva this Sunday.

Thanks all.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

djastram said:


> Great replies!
> 
> To be clear, I am using the nicot system, and only transferring cups with larva.
> 
> ...



Are you doing a Cloake board?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

crocodilu911 said:


> David, he was using a nicot, so he did not graft.


Clearly that flew right by me. Sorry.


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> Are you doing a Cloake board?



No. I remove the box with the queen, rotate it 180 and place it behind the now queen less section for a starter, then reunite the two the next day for a finisher.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

djastram said:


> No. I remove the box with the queen, rotate it 180 and place it behind the now queen less section for a starter, then reunite the two the next day for a finisher.



Following Michael Palmer's approach- good move!


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> Following Michael Palmer's approach- good move!


As closely as I can, except for the Nicot part. Also I cage the cells. Darn full time job gets in the way.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Good luck. Let us know how your next round turns out.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

To make this clear - I do not use a Nicot system. 

However, my best rate of successful queen cells (over most transfer methods) come from larvae at about 80 to 86 hours after breeder queen isolation onto empty comb in the Pritchard cage, which I have called a "Breeder Queen Jail". Translation = larvae that are just beginning to bend, but not yet making a "C", and with some royal jelly.

Hope this helps...


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

I started round 3 today. I found my favorite queen on the 2nd frame in. Her hive is booming, and I was afraid I'd never find her. 3 deeps & 5 mediums. She is a Broke-T 2014 queen.

The Starter has a few days to go and it will be ready.

Dave.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

AstroBee said:


> Following Michael Palmer's approach- good move!


Mike reunites 5 days later when the cells are capped. Maybe he'll comment on the nuances of that vs. next day.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Right, I let the cell builder remain queenless until the cells are sealed 5 days after graft. I want all the nurse bees feeding my cells, not dividing the duties between feeding my cells and feeding the larvae in the queen-right section.


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

Oops. Thanks folks.


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

Well I tried grafting again today. Turned most of them into mush, but I think I got 30 of them transferred ok. If I close one eye, and get real close, I can see the larva.

I didn't have any Mozart, so I listened to Pink Floyd instead. 

Thanks all.
Dave.


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