# How they do kill each other in robbing and fighting ?



## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

I'd guess pesticide die off if they are inside the hive behind a screen.

That was my experience in May up in Oregon with my bee's.
Farmer's sprayed the fields, we have a hobby farm in the middle of corn
and other mono croppers out by Ft Vannoy.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

DavidZ said:


> I'd guess pesticide die off if they are inside the hive behind a screen.
> 
> That was my experience in May up in Oregon with my bee's.
> Farmer's sprayed the fields, we have a hobby farm in the middle of corn
> and other mono croppers out by Ft Vannoy.


Thanks. But why the fighting between bees inside the hive ? There is still fighting going on this morning inside the hive. They all seem real hyper inside.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

perhaps a pesticide is making the foragers 'smell' different and has the colony thinking they are intruders. sorry to hear about your colony daisy.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Thanks for the thoughts SP. I will see if I can stay out of them for couple of days and review. Outside activity is very quite for now. Fighting going on inside still.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

With die-off as heavy as you describe, that would be heavy robbing. With heavy robbing, you should see wax bits all over the bottom board and bees checking out all the seams in the hive between boxes and lid seam trying to find and push their way into any crack. The entrance would look like a crowded busy airport, heavy activity, and the bees would be in a frantic frenzy. 

I don't know why they are fighting inside the hive, you may need to take a closer inspection concerning robbing. If you rule that out, then I'd agree with SP that it sounds like pesticide or some other poison of some sort. 

Two times in the past I've had hives that bees just started pouring out the front entrance and dying on the ground in front, a big pile of them. I don't remember seeing any fighting. I lost half the hive or more, but it happened fast, within 30 minutes or so for the majority of it. The hives setting next to them never had a problem at all and were normal. I lost half the hive or more both times this happened, but the hives did both recover after the incident. I suspected pesticide or some other kind of poisoning at the time.

I'm also wondering if what you are seeing is a take-over by a swarm???

These are the only thoughts I can come up with at the moment.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Thanks Ray. Yep, its puzzling. I dont see any bits or dropping of wax or comb at all. All that keeps piling are dead bees. When I open the inner cover (there is 1/8 mesh covering the box under inner cover, I can see bees inside .. bunch of them are being chased, pulled by legs etc. Bunch are on their back "sizzling" like they are on hot pan. Similar situation looking through robber screen. Bees pulling on legs of other bees who appear to be frantic. For my untrained eye, looks like the bees trying to escape are being pulled legs. 

I have never saw a swarm in 10 years. Only swarm I saw this year was from my own. And with a swarm, I imagine huge swarm outside, instead bees were ZOOMING OUT of the hive when I first witnessed this episode y'day morning.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

RayMarler said:


> I'm also wondering if what you are seeing is a take-over by a swarm???


good thought there ray, and another possible explanation for the observation.

daisy, the technical term for what ray is talking about is 'usurpation'. i've had one attempted usurpation since i started. you may want to read up on it and see how that jives with what you are seeing.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Interesting reading on "usurpation". I guess best I can do is to sit back and check in 4 days on the fate of the resident queen. 

First time uploading to tube, but here it is. You will see typical "fighting" behavior about 30 seconds into the video... top view. Similar fighting can be seen others parts of hive and also behind robber screen. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K-RD5nCvY4&feature=youtu.be


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

Is it possible that the fighting inside the hive is robbers that were already inside the hive when you put the robber screen on? Perhaps your first attempt with the bent wire wasn't effective and there was a bunch already in the hive on the second attempt.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

cervus said:


> Is it possible that the fighting inside the hive is robbers that were already inside the hive when you put the robber screen on? Perhaps your first attempt with the bent wire wasn't effective and there was a bunch already in the hive on the second attempt.


In that case, should I leave the robber screen as is or remove it to let the robbers escape ?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I'm sorry, but I don't see anything abnormal in that video. Maybe it's more revealing by being there. So tell me, just how many bees are dead in front of the hive or on the bottom board? When you said a "pile of dead bees at the entrance", I was assuming a couple thousand or more with my earlier comments. From that video, I don't see anything I'd call robbing or a problem really, Bees do die throughout the season, they only live six weeks or so. Another issue is, have you checked or treated for Varroa mites lately? One of the symptoms of Varroa mites is dead bees or crawling bees on the ground in front of the hive.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

DaisyNJ said:


> In that case, should I leave the robber screen as is or remove it to let the robbers escape ?


If that was indeed the case, and I'm just spit-ballin' based on your video and description, I think the damage is already done. I don't think removing the screen would be prudent if it is/was robbing though. Theoretically, restricting the robbers to inside the hive might prevent them from broadcasting their find and bringing reinforcements. Might have to let the battle come to a conclusion. Hopefully, your queen survives. Not much solace I know. Maybe someone more experienced can recommend a solution.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

RayMarler said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't see anything abnormal in that video. Maybe it's more revealing by being there. So tell me, just how many bees are dead in front of the hive or on the bottom board? When you said a "pile of dead bees at the entrance", I was assuming a couple thousand or more with my earlier comments. From that video, I don't see anything I'd call robbing or a problem really, Bees do die throughout the season, they only live six weeks or so. Another issue is, have you checked or treated for Varroa mites lately? One of the symptoms of Varroa mites is dead bees or crawling bees on the ground in front of the hive.


Sorry for the video. That video is from top of the hive , looking in... at about 10 seconds you will see a bee "sizzling" and two bees going after her biting into wings, pulling legs..thats the typical behavior I am seeing. I cannot video into robber screen as view is restricted, but almost 24 hours after, still same type of fighting going on inside, dead bees and not many bees are coming out of the robber screen entrance / exit. 

On the dead bees, there were atleast two full cups of bees dead in the grass y'day evening. Then I scooped out atleast another cup and half at dawn and inside of robber is screen is filled with dead bees by today morning. So I would say atleast couple of thousand bees dead at this point, if not more. 

This is the MOST dead bees I have ever seen with 5 other hives / nucs in the samd place. This hive was always calm and never the type of pulling and fighting and this "sizzling" noise that I am seeing now.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Worst fears come to life... couldnt bear to see the continued fights and struggle, so went into hive with lot of smoke... 

DEAD BEES covering full bottom...From how I remember this hive from last week, atleast 75% of the bees are gone / dead. 

They were from a split and started to build up nicely, building new comb on fresh foundation. Started to store for winter, no stores were disturbed,
no wax distroyed, capped brood intact. Found the queen.

Pic attached. The tray is 12 inch x 9 inch with dead bees of least 1 inch depth...








https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B80ZjPpUL3dkRXYzaEVqRG5TdzMwRkFOeWszRUQ4NnRJSWhj


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

can you detect any strange odor (raid) coming from those dead bees?


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> can you detect any strange odor (raid) coming from those dead bees?


SP, interesting you mention that. Yes, it smelled odd, but I cannot pin it to specific smell. I thought may be its all dead bees smelling. What is it ?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

it hasn't been long enough for those bees to be rotting, but that smell is similar to a dead mouse.

the odd smell may be an insecticide of some sort. any chance that your bees have been bothering the neighbor's? perhaps visiting a swimming pool or birdbath or something?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

OK, yes, there definitely is a problem, but all I can possibly do is guess. 
It could be usurpation. 
It doesn't sound like robbing, from what you've posted.
It may be poison, but I don't see how that would cause fighting, so this is low probability I'm thinking.

Here's the only thing I can think of to actually do, and it may or may not help.
Move the hive to a new stand with the entrance facing a different direction. Remove the feeders, there is probably stores in there so no feeders really needed during this time of stress, and remove the robbing screen, since there does not appear to be robbing. Leave the entrance full open so they can remove dead and get ventilation. With all the dead bees on bottom with your hot humid weather, it may have caused too much heat and lack of air flow in the hive. I can't think of anything else at the moment, I guess just watch and wait to see what happens.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> it hasn't been long enough for those bees to be rotting, but that smell is similar to a dead mouse.
> 
> the odd smell may be an insecticide of some sort. any chance that your bees have been bothering the neighbor's? perhaps visiting a swimming pool or birdbath or something?


Went back to take a sniff at the pan before I read your message, yes, the smell is similar to something dead.. dead mouse for sure. I thought they were rotting. 

Neighbors has been cool about this so far, there is a 7 ft high solid fence between us, and none of the neighbors have pool or bird bath... and I always have a water barrel with floats 10 ft from these hives. 

There are two more hive / nucs within 10 ft of this hive. Two more nuc/hive are about 30 ft away. Do you think this will impact others too ?

Do you recommend moving the queen or hive or any other course of action to salvage whats left ?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sounds like a mystery that may remain a mystery. and since we don't know for sure what's going on it's hard to know what to do or not to do.

is there any chance the syrup could have gotten contaminated with something? (if those were jar feeders i saw in the video)

i can't think of anything to recommend for now other than watching to see how it plays out. if everything gets back to 'normal' after some time and the queen and the brood are looking good i suppose you could consider donating some bees from your other colonies if they are strong enough to spare them.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

squarepeg said:


> sounds like a mystery that may remain a mystery. and since we don't know for sure what's going on it's hard to know what to do or not to do.
> 
> is there any chance the syrup could have gotten contaminated with something? (if those were jar feeders i saw in the video)


I agree, hard to say to do anything or not since we don't know precisely what's wrong.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Thanks SP, Ray.

Moved the hive about 10 ft out and turned it around. I will watch it from outside for a week and then go in.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

bummer, but I'm staying with pesticide on the bee's, robbing or not, people s..k sorry, but the smell is the tell. 
I hope the rest of your girls are safe. 
Like I always say go to your dept ag let them know you have a die off.
Your bees are considered valuable livestock.

can people access your bees from the road?
someone could have snuck in at night and sprayed them.

I just got 2 trail cams, and I have a usb cam set in the upstairs shop window up as a security eye.
I have problems with shooters pegging my hives, just because of our town catering to tourist.
wild and woolly here on the Rim. Here in AZ people live in fear of the AHB, and any bee suddenly becomes
the enemy out here in AZ.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

@David, These hives are in the backyard in a 100x100 residential lot. No easy way for anyone to access these without going through 6ft high fence. 

Two more 1 deep nucs are within 10 ft in a line with this one. So far, they seem to be holding ok. Another 10 deep and TBH are in the same yard within 30 ft. They seem to be holding ok too, no dead bees so far.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Update: Last night I moved the hive 15ft (limited space in the urban lot) and turned the entrance 180. Feeder removed. 

I see lot of bees again at the entrance and lot of activity at one of other hive diagonal from this new location. And lo and behold, I see bees straight lining from that hive to the impacted hive. Pulled the mesh screen to clean and more dead bees inside. 

Decided to close up the hive completely. Rubbed a bit of Vicks at the entrance and closed it with 1/8 mesh completely. 


To clarify, I have not see any debris of wax or disturbed stores y'day or today. Capped brood all intact.

Looking at how robbing started today, Its possible the hive is seriously impacted by pesticide or virus and robbing started. I think this is it for this hive.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

if it is mites/virus the last thing you want is for bees from the diagonal hive getting into the dying hive. is there any possibility you can move the dying one to another location until you can figure out what's going on with it? if not the safest thing may be to euthanize it. you may want to consider sending samples to the beltsville bee lab, it's a free service:

https://www.ars.usda.gov/northeast-...aboratory/docs/bee-disease-diagnosis-service/


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that some hives make it and some hives don't. I need hives that thrive in my location with my particular management practices. If they don't make it, then it's a hive that I don't want in my yard anyway. I have enough hives that I don't mess with the dinks so much. I feel my efforts are better spent on the hives that do thrive and don't need so much attention from me. Sometimes it's much easier, less time consuming, and less resource depleting to just shake them out and store the equipment or transfer the equipment to other hives in the yard.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> if it is mites/virus the last thing you want is for bees from the diagonal hive getting into the dying hive. is there any possibility you can move the dying one to another location until you can figure out what's going on with it? if not the safest thing may be to euthanize it. you may want to consider sending samples to the beltsville bee lab, it's a free service:
> 
> https://www.ars.usda.gov/northeast-...aboratory/docs/bee-disease-diagnosis-service/


Thanks SP. I will lock this for 72 hours and see what happens. I prepared two bags of dead bee samples in rubbing alcohol and will send them to the testing.


Ray - is it possible that whatever is going will transfer with shaking ?What about queen ? just dispatch ?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

From a different thread on the same subject...with an interest in consolidating.



DaisyNJ said:


> 1. One hive impacted so far


Which largely points away from a pesticide event.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I'm sorry to be reading about the problems you are having with this colony. This is a new one on me. I do have a question, though. The sizzling sound you describe, could that be the bees on their backs with wings beating rapidly causing the sound?

Good luck,
Alex


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

DaisyNJ said:


> I prepared two bags of dead bee samples in rubbing alcohol and will send them to the testing.


good deal. consider sending a brood sample as well if it works out.



DaisyNJ said:


> Is it possible that whatever is going will transfer with shaking?


it would be a concern for me. my plan if i find myself in a similar situation is to place the hive in a freezer and kill off everything in it. is that an option for you?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

beemandan said:


> Which largely points away from a pesticide event.


another good point dan. beltsville doesn't sample for pesticides. is there a free service available that does?


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

AHudd said:


> I'm sorry to be reading about the problems you are having with this colony. This is a new one on me. I do have a question, though. The sizzling sound you describe, could that be the bees on their backs with wings beating rapidly causing the sound?
> 
> Good luck,
> Alex


It does appear that the sizzling sound is with the bees on their backs or disoriented, disabled bees trying to fly. Most of the time, other bees would jump onto chase / pull these sizzling bees. 


beemandan - This being one hive also puzzles me against pesticide possibility. Its entirely possible that one thing led to other and robbing and dead bees were outward indicators. 

SP - I dont have a full size freezer to transfer the hive into. Shake and soap ? Co2 ?

JWC, If the Paralysis Virus, does it persist in the comb ?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

a discussion about small and curved abdomens on dark shiny sickly bees took place on beesource a few years ago. if I recall correctly the consensus was mite vectored chronic bee paralysis. 
one of the contributors to the thread was M Palmer who, I believe, posted a picture of a bee exhibiting the symptoms.
i have tried to find the thread to post as a resource for this thread but have had no luck finding it.

the description here leads me to believe the colony is suffering from the same CBP.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

DaisyNJ said:


> I dont have a full size freezer to transfer the hive into. Shake and soap ? Co2 ?


good options as far as I am aware, i'll defer to those with experience.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> a discussion about small and curved abdomens on dark shiny sickly bees took place on beesource a few years ago. if I recall correctly the consensus was mite vectored chronic bee paralysis.
> one of the contributors was to the thread was M Palmer who, I believe, posted a picture of a bee exhibiting the symptoms.
> i have tried to find the thread to post as a resource for this thread but have had no luck finding it.
> 
> the description here leads me to believe the colony is suffering from the same CBP.


I have seen those very dark, shiny (hairless) bees in the other Nuc at the beginning of the year when that purchased Nuc suffered from heavy varroa / viral loads. 

I could not find any dark or hairless bees in this massive dead pile. None have DWV either. 

To be clear, these bees look nothing like the Nuc that was impacted by heavy DWV. My description of "curled abdomen" may have thrown people off track, but only way I could describe is "its as if they threw their stomach contents and curled up with toungus out".


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

not thrown off track. in fact thrown on track by the abdomen.
the small curled abdomens on live sickly bees is a important indicator.
a different beast than dwv.

do you have any pictures of these bees, individually and preferably living. photos help a great deal.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

DaisyNJ said:


> Ray - is it possible that whatever is going will transfer with shaking ?What about queen ? just dispatch ?


I would not want to keep a queen of a hive that had this problem, but then, I have enough hives that if one dinks out or has bad problems, it's not that big of a loss. The equipment is still usable and I can replace the queen bees from my own stock. Other people in different situations may very well have much different priorities than me, and may want to save the queen. If you yourself do, then you can make up a nuc from your other hives and introduce the queen to it. Keep in mind the time of year we are in and if you want to rob resources from other hives at this time.

I suppose it's possible for other hives to get problems from shaking this one out. If you are concerned about that, it could already have happened from bees drifting from a weak or non functional hive to your others already ( bees have a tendency to drift from poor hives to stronger hives). If you just let this hive sit, then it can put pressure on the others, same as shaking it out. If one or more of your hives are robbing this one out, same thing, mites as well as diseases can get transferred. If you are that concerned about it, you can always execute this hive now. I myself would take it as far away as possible from my other hives and shake them out, or I might just let them sit in the new location you've moved them too and let nature take it's course. This hive does not sound like it's going to make it to me.

I think more like, in terms of cost and production. Cheapest quickest way to fix a problem with the priorities I have. How much time and resources to throw at a problem hive, verses just shaking them out and move on. I've probably got a few more years as a beekeeper, and have lost some of my thrill and fascination so, think more in terms of work expenditure verses rewards. I've lost the issue of trying to figure out so much why something happened so long as I'm confident it was not from something that I did or could have prevented, but instead focus on how to fix a problem situation no matter what it's cause.

I hope you get this hive situation resolved to your satisfaction, if needing to know what/why then send off the samples and keep observing. Otherwise, cut the loss and concentrate on getting/keeping the other hives you have in good shape for over wintering.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Thanks Ray. Well said on priorities. When we lost our first backyard chicken, it had funeral and all . 5 chicken lost to hawks, foxes etc, proper coop / run built and 5 years later, we hardly pay attention other than feeding, quick glance every day and picking up eggs.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Very little chance this is pesticide related. Only one hive impacted and totally wrong symptoms to boot.

Your video is not much help. Moving all over constantly makes it impossible to see what is happening.

What is your mite count? Sounds to me like by far the most likely is one of the varroa spread viruses. If so the hive does not have good odds this late in the year. They seldom (never?) recover from the paralytic viruses if that is what it is. However, from tests Randy Oliver ran he did not see bees dying in the hive or on the ground in front of the hive from Israeli paralytic virus. What he saw looked more like CCD where the bees simply disappeared. Once the hive got weak some robbing got started but it does not sound at all like the robbing is the main problem other than if it is a mite/virus issue robbing will spread it.

You need to run an alcohol wash mite count and if you are over 2% you need to treat for mites. You said you saw a mite on a bee so you are most likely over 2% by a lot. I have never once seen a mite on a bee when the count was at or below 2%. Treating a distressed hive at this time of year is not at all likely to get them thru the winter as it is too late for a weak hive in NJ to make enough brood. MAQS knocks mites faster than anything else but it also puts a lot of stress on the bees and doing that to already distressed bees may make matters worse. The safest fast mite kill would be oxalic vapor repeated four times at weekly intervals if you are willing to treat for mites. Otherwise your only option is wait and see what happens.

If there is any good news it is that viruses do not survive in comb. So, preserve drawn comb over the winter.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Thanks for the insight RC. I do have OAV tool handy but with three days of piling bees, I am not sure anything is left inside. But by trying, I guess I cannot make it any worse.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Daisy, you may want to gather five or six of the sizzling bees in a vial or small jar and leave them for a week or so to make sure that phorid fly (Apocephalus borealis) larvae don't emerge from the dead bees. (I don't know if they have as high an incidence within a single hive as you have described.)


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

DaisyNJ said:


> Thanks Ray. Well said on priorities. When we lost our first backyard chicken, it had funeral and all . 5 chicken lost to hawks, foxes etc, proper coop / run built and 5 years later, we hardly pay attention other than feeding, quick glance every day and picking up eggs.


Yep, one day you'll get to being the same way with beehives.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> another good point dan. beltsville doesn't sample for pesticides. is there a free service available that does?


Just heard back from Bee Lab (via email). Apparently they dont test for viral loads either. Varroa presence and Nosima only. FYI.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Called another beek to help with alcohol wash of a two other TF hives. 

#1 affected TF queen , could not do alcohol was as the hive is closed

#2 TF, a TBH across from the affected hive new location, showed 10 varroa count in the sample - about 3.34%
#3 TF showed 3 varroa count in the sample - 1%

Additional videos / pics to follow.

Pics(dead bees from 09/10/2016)

Pic1: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B80ZjPpUL3dkZXcza19XZHdnLVU

Pic2: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B80ZjPpUL3dkYU92VDZrbmg1bHM

Pic3: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B80ZjPpUL3dkcWllVU51OGtPd2c


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Daisy,
I'm not a treatment free beek, but I do try to stay as natural as I can. That means something different to every beekeeper, but if you are not against essential oils you could blend wintergreen, and tea tree oil with water. Yes you must blend it to make them mesh together. Makes a white milky water, then I would also add apple cider vinegar to it as well. I don't know if you hive is getting robbed from what you have said in this post and the one under TF, but we can all conclude they are sick. I give this solution to week hives or sick hive to give them a pick me up. It may help. 
It could also be said that bees know exactly where specific honey/ nectar comes from, some argue bees know which flower another bee has visited by communication with one another. The reason no cappings may be found is the robbers were not in full force yet and were skipping past the capped honey and directly to the free sugar syrup. Easy access perhaps. You may consider removing the feeders all together.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

In addition to the pics and varroa counts, here are some videos from outside. 

Video1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAhm_AwXDaA

Video2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jest5NrhAl0

Video3 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsIL3vQV_Zg


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

I think it is you healthy bees cleaning house. Those bees appear sick to me not being robbed. Your healthy bees may be wanting rid the hive of the bees that are sick or have the disease/sickness/poison to try and save the hive. Just a guess


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

ethanhogan said:


> I think it is you healthy bees cleaning house. Those bees appear sick to me not being robbed. Your healthy bees may be wanting rid the hive of the bees that are sick or have the disease/sickness/poison to try and save the hive. Just a guess


Its a long story, but the entrance is opened temporarily the purpose of recording. If I leave it out for an hour or so, you will see massive robbing.


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

I still think the robbers may be targeting your feeders and not the capped honey yet. Maybe bees got over loaded with mites and are now to sick to guard off against mites. I have read both of your post start to finish. Long but interesting story


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Another organic treatment I have seen used is a fogger with mineral oil and wintergreen. Supposedly smothers mites if that ends up being part of the equation.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

ethanhogan said:


> I still think the robbers may be targeting your feeders and not the capped honey yet. Maybe bees got over loaded with mites and are now to sick to guard off against mites. I have read both of your post start to finish. Long but interesting story


Thanks. The feeders have been off since Saturday.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

clyderoad said:


> a discussion about small and curved abdomens on dark shiny sickly bees took place on beesource a few years ago. if I recall correctly the consensus was mite vectored chronic bee paralysis.
> one of the contributors to the thread was M Palmer who, I believe, posted a picture of a bee exhibiting the symptoms.
> i have tried to find the thread to post as a resource for this thread but have had no luck finding it.
> 
> the description here leads me to believe the colony is suffering from the same CBP.


rader, can you try to find this thread please?


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Looking through the photos of dead bees, I haven't noticed any bees that have the "shiny black" look that is associated with paralysis virus. From my own experience with it, lots of trembling bees and a good number of shiny black bees. They are hairless to the point of looking alien. Nearly unmistakable.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

squarepeg said:


> and we may never get a final answer unless daisy is willing to spend hundreds of dollars for viral and pesticide analyses (which i probably would not do myself).


hey, what about a 'go fund me' collection for daisy to cover the cost for pesticide and viral analyses? i'm good for $20


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> rader, can you try to find this thread please?


Well, I have looked. 

I found a variety of chronic bee paralysis threads, some have contributions by _Michael Palmer_, but none of those appear to be what _clyderoad _is referring to. 



Note that looking for alternate search keywords/phrases is complicated by having parallel threads started by _DaisyNJ _that are both active, with some posts in one thread referring to posts in the other thread. 

For future reference, here is the parallel thread: 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?330624-Massive-die-off-robbin


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

CBPV:

https://youtu.be/4AI9ScjWPzQ


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Nordak said:


> Looking through the photos of dead bees, I haven't noticed any bees that have the "shiny black" look that is associated with paralysis virus. From my own experience with it, lots of trembling bees and a good number of shiny black bees. They are hairless to the point of looking alien. Nearly unmistakable.


You are correct. In one of these threads, I asserted early that no hairless, shiny or black bees. No DWV or K wing bees leading up to this. Neither was any crawlers or episodes of dead bees (in numbers of concerns) observed in front of hive. No patchy brood, no yellow looking larva, no stringy stuff when I tested few capped larva etc. 

SP - Thanks for the offer, but I dont like to burn other people money. Should you ever decide to sell your queens, I sure would like to purchase .


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

it would be as much for all of our learning benefit as yours daisy, but i appreciate the sentiment. i'm not sure my southern belles would do as well up there, but maybe we can try someday.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, I have looked.


many thanks graham!


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

DaisyNJ said:


> SP - Thanks for the offer, but I dont like to burn other people money. Should you ever decide to sell your queens, I sure would like to purchase .


If you change your mind, I'm in for twenty. Who knows, we may all learn something new, even JWC. 

Alex


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

my take:
the pics and videos do not show bees with CBP as I understand it. these bees do not have small curled abdomens nor are they of the appearance of
bees I have personally seen with what we believed was cbp. no pics i have seen of what has been described as cbp remotely resemble these bees in the pics/vids.
the colony is in full collapse with what appears to be heavy viral loads from mites. those bees falling out of the hive would be what many call crawlers, unable to fly, although they try. 
pesticide kills I have had show withering bees circling on the ground, curled with no attempt to fly and not able to crawl, some fall off the face of the hive bodies. they die in place.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the videos nordak linked look a bit different to me than daisy's. no curled up abdomens, lots of shiny black bees, no bees on their backs. interesting that the first one is from 'nj apiarist'.

the one from matthew weddington has this comment with it:

"This video shows the symptoms of suspected CPBV (Chronic Bee Paralysis Virus) on a hive. Although not tested for the virus, the symptoms are "classic", and the entire hive, which was initially one of the strongest in my apiary, entirely succumbed to the disease in the course of two months."

the 2 month course is in contrast to daisy's sudden die off.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Good eye, SP. I would also state that is is possible for a hive to recover from it, as mine did.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Those videos show a great deal more than we have seen so far. The bees are consistently unable to vibrate their wing muscles at speeds to fly. Wings are often held at the wrong angle and are sometimes unhooked. Affected bees are attempting to leave the hive. They are unable to crawl, often moving only with the front 2 legs and occasional twitches of the others.

This is not symptomatic of CBPV, any of the iridescent viruses I am familiar with, nosema ceranae, or of the zombie flies. The only virus I know of that produces similar symptoms is IAPV and the only other possible concern would be a very heavy dose of neonicotinoid pesticide. I do not think it is pesticide because this is the only affected colony. At this point, I think the only possibility for finding the true cause is to get bees to a lab that can diagnose bee viruses.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Regarding the "go fund me" request, if you'd asked me 8 months ago I'd have contributed $20 in a heart beat. I'm a little strapped right now, but I hope you get it sorted Daisy. Rooting for you.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

DaisyNJ said:


> Its a long story, but the entrance is opened temporarily the purpose of recording. If I leave it out for an hour or so, you will see massive robbing.


Seems like it would be good to clean off the bottom board, let the survivors clean house and let the dying bees leave the hive. That might give them a chance to recover. Could you move the hive to a new location away from the robbers?


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

heaflaw said:


> Seems like it would be good to clean off the bottom board, let the survivors clean house and let the dying bees leave the hive. That might give them a chance to recover. Could you move the hive to a new location away from the robbers?


Yep, cleaned up y'day that resulted in 12x9 cooking pan full of dead bees, took samples per suggestions and buried rest. Relocated the hive within 100x100 yard that resulted in heavy robbing within an hour, so had to close it up again with 1/8 mesh. I am manually cleaning the bottom board every chance I get, more dead bees keep showing up.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

clyderoad said:


> the colony is in full collapse with what appears to be heavy viral loads from mites.


you may well be right clyde. but it's hard to wrap my brain around how it just so happened that the majority of adult workers in the colony somehow all became infected within a day or two of each other. but again, i'm way out of my experience base here. can it happen that way? 

would we expect to see extremely high mite loads in this one hive when the other two sampled were relatively low?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

where are all the bees from that colony? my 10 frame medium nucs made 10 weeks ago have a larger population of bees.
i'd guess that colony has been collapsing for quite some time.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> where are all the bees from that colony? my 10 frame medium nucs made 10 weeks ago have a larger population of bees.
> i'd guess that colony has been collapsing for quite some time.


Dead. 12x9 cooking pan of them (how many would that be ?) + all the dead one pulled by bees on Friday + all the dead ones I scooped out onto grass on Friday evening + many still dying.

Being a newbie I am, I walk the area of hives every day twice. never saw any crawling or dead bees infront of the hive. I usually see bees hauling dead away in all hives, but nothing was out of ordinary in this hive (compared to others). I did full inspection of this hive on September 3rd weekend, was checking on how crazy they were building new comb on couple of frames I put in.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I may have missed something in one of these threads on this problem, but I noticed in another thread you used a vaporizer for a test. Have you used it in a hive, yet?

Alex


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Tracheal mites...maybe? I don't know about the bent abdomens....I've never seen a heavy infestation myself. But certainly the inability to fly and problems with the wing muscles.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

any chance the feed on that hive fermented? Drunk bees will get chewed on and pulled out by their nest mates, and will also sometimes have that curled abdomen? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhUKLsSjUZs


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Harley Craig said:


> any chance the feed on that hive fermented? Drunk bees will get chewed on and pulled out by their nest mates, and will also sometimes have that curled abdomen?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhUKLsSjUZs


I check on the feed and it seems fine, smelled and tasted it.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Searching through the threads, found another similar report by a commercial ? massive death in one hive.. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?245882-Pesticides

Another article on here (BS) that talks about disoriented bees, guard bees not recognizing house bees, regurgitation etc. 

http://beesource.com/point-of-view/joe-traynor/how-to-reduce-bee-poisoning-from-pesticides/

Another post talking about pesticides, and only one hive being impacted.. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-317079.html

Problem is, I see most of these posts are around August / September. What reason for pesticide in that time frame ?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

DaisyNJ said:


> Problem is, I see most of these posts are around August / September. What reason for pesticide in that time frame ?



in my neck of the woods, that is when I get a bunch of " swarm calls" but in reality it's a bunch of established colonies bearding due to the heat. I tell these folks it's too late in the yr for me to do a removal and If they are still there come spring I'll come get them. I never get a call in spring, Me thinks they get sprayed, and if any colony then decided to rob it out..... well you know what will happen next, maybe this was the case with you and that one hive was more prone to robbing and brought back the lions share of contaminated honey?


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

DaisyNJ said:


> Problem is, I see most of these posts are around August / September. What reason for pesticide in that time frame ?


Winter squash, pumpkins, depending on the area. Some of these fruits bloom for one day only which may cause one hive to work them and other hives to not locate them. All things considered in this thread, I do think that it was a chemical poisoning despite only one hive being impacted. You lost your foragers and guard bees giving rise to the robbing. In any event, mite vectored virus infections occur. Chemical poisoning occurs. We buys our tickets, and we takes our chances.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Would dead bees have curled in abdomen and tongues out if this was robbing ?

Sounds like pesticide.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Thanks all for commenting. The slow death continued through today. Entrance closed with mesh to prevent robbing and spread of what-ever-it-is. More dead bees on the bottom, cleaned and buried them. 

On today inspection, only couple of hundred bees huddled together and eating, some heads into the cells. Some were just falling off as I lifted the frames. And could not find queen. This hive is done. I will go in tomorrow, shake them out into a ditch. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-pjk9ZlS50

Big question now is, what to do with the combs. I could use them in other smaller hives, but dont know course of action in either case of pesticide or viral infection. 

Appreciate guidance on left over combs.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

tough call daisy, and again i can't speak from experience, but personally i would be concerned about the food stores being contaminated and would not reuse them unless i could get a definitive answer.

for just a few hundred bees the soapy water trick and burying them would be a safe route to take. the main thing is to prevent them from joining back up with the other colonies.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

or better yet, put the left over bees in alcohol and wash them for mites.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Update: All Nucs in the yard got first dose of OAV. With aggressive splitting, feeding, rearranging and no brood break, I feel its been unfair for them to perform in TF manner. 


As SP said, the actual cause may remain mystery. Still dont know what to do with those 10 combs.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

my 2 cents is that i would consider it more cost effective to discard the comb than to have the stores tested for pesticide residue.

i don't blame you for treating daisy, losing a colony like that can be very disheartening.

are you thinking that had you been treating them this probably would not have happened or are you just taking a more conservative approach as to not risk any more losses?

your alcohol washes were pretty respectable from the other two for this time of year.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

SP, Thanks. Its shame to discard, but better safe than sorry at this point. 

The thought process behind OA was to bring any mite levels down as my management this year has been anything but fair to those TF queens. They have been dropped into small Nucs (result of missed swarm and subsequent aggressive splitting), never got brood break (continuous feeding for comb building and population).

Interestingly, the TBH with the same batch TF queen, the one that robbed the affected one, is also not looking good. Found pile of bees on the ground, less activity at the entrance and there is that smell. 

It may be terrible way to look at it, but another beek, down the road, who started last year lost two full hives even after treating. They lost queens this year, ended up having to treat for EFB. I gave them one of my locally mated queen (swarm prep daughter). 

I am very hopeful of my future attempts to be TF. 

I think I am getting more excitement than I bargained for first year .


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

DaisyNJ said:


> In addition to the pics and varroa counts, here are some videos from outside.
> 
> Video1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAhm_AwXDaA
> 
> ...


I stick to the analysis of my first post(in treatment free forum thread): virus infection.

I have seen similar in my hives: lots of rolling and dying bees in front of the hive in grass. Typically this is going on several days. No other sick hives in the yard. 


Poisoning I have seen are load of dead bees in front of the hive. Poisonings are extremely rare, I have witnessed one in my 40 year beekeeping carrier. Then the situation was that 4 hives in a yard of 6 hives got poisoned, maybe couple apple trees sprayed in a nearby garden. 2 hives had obviously been flying in another direction.

Race differences are clear in virus infections. Other strains are clearly more susceptible than others.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Videos:

OSB used.....well.....hmmm
coating used...

The last one looks like robbing results to me. That`s just what wasps do when being attacked and stung by my bees.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

SiWolKe said:


> Videos:
> 
> OSB used.....well.....hmmm
> coating used...
> ...


A Top Bar Hive, with no OSB, all comb built by bees, facing different direction, about 20 feet from affected hive, also ran into same exact problem. Dead pile of bees, that stench. Everyone in the yard got OAV treatment, second one today (Sunday). 

On a related note, went to dump the dead bees out of the original affected one. To my surprise, the marked queen is still there, with couple of hundred bees. They exhausted all feed and started to pull larva out. After all, she is not dead yet. Even more dilemma now.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

In my yards by these heavy virus infections, with hundreds of rolling suffering bees in the grass in front of the hive entrance, queen is never lost , hive just gets a lot weaker and then continues living. At least until the next winter...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very interesting daisy, thanks for the update.


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