# Hybrid Vigor vs. Natural Vigor



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

In another thread the comment was made that if you start inbreeding then hybrid vigor will decrease. Folks keep talking about the need for diverse stocks, which will just create hybrids.

Is hybrid vigor a good thing with bees? The only instance I can think of where hybrid vigor would be of any benefit to a beekeeper involves annual requeening of every hive.

I'm familiar with hybrid vigor in plants. Two strains are crossed, and the resulting offspring has some benefit that is better than either parent possessed. However, if you replant a seed from the plant with hybrid vigor, the new plant will not grow true to parent. Quite often, the plant is far inferior to the two original grandparent strains.

Are bees this way? Are we breeding hybrid vigor into our bees, and have really good queens for one generation, and as soon as they supercede, we end up with duds? To prevent this, we are stuck in a constant cycle of trying to bring new genetic strains in, so that every generation exhibits some hybrid vigor.

There are also hardy varieties of plants that have natural vigor. These plants grow true to seed, and every generation retains the traits of the parent stock. These are often called heirloom varieties, as you can replant generation after generation of seeds.

How do we develop good hardy strains of bees with natural vigor, instead of trying to continuously find bees that exhibit hybrid vigor in each generation?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's a philosophical question I guess. My grandpa used to say the only thing horses were good for was breeding mules. But someone still has to breed horses... The hybrid is not a stable "race" while the race has more stable traits and is more sustainable. In my experience, with bees, hybrid vigor usually means they are vicious.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Countryboy said:


> In another thread the comment was made that if you start inbreeding then hybrid vigor will decrease. Folks keep talking about the need for diverse stocks, which will just create hybrids.
> 
> Is hybrid vigor a good thing with bees?
> 
> ...


As far as hybrids go, it's a matter of opinion. Some breeders want pure strains. I prefer my mutts.

But breeding bees is different than breeding plants and horses, etc. Queens mate with many drones, not one. So, the diversity you speak of is important in both pure strains and hybrid strains. The diversity comes into play via the many drones of different stocks...either pure strains or mutts.

Have you read or heard Dave Tarpy's work...NC State. He uses chalkbrood as an example. If a queen mates with one drone, and that drone carries genes for chalkbrood resistance, then that resistance is transferred to the offspring. If he doesn't carry the resistant gene, then no resistance. So, he calls it the 50/50 rule. Mating with one drone, or multiple drones of the same genetics equates to a 50/50 chance of inheriting chalkbrood resistance.

Now, if the queen mates with many drones of different genetics, and some of those drones carry the genes for chalkbrood resistance, the colony is more likely to be resistant to chalk. It doesn't take every bee (line) in the colony to be resistant for the trait to be expressed.

So to me, it's more about the diversity of the drones than it is about hybrid/pure races. Does that make sense?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

If you research Buckfast Abby, they have a breeding program that starts with diversity. After many years when a hybrid is set, they are numbered, that genetic group is distinctly maintained. Those queens are bred with drones from the same group in different hives. Genetic depression is maintained by having multiple sources of the same numbered stock. 
They do have the advantages of isolation to prevent unexpected crosses, and the operation has spread to several countries improving diversity and heterosis.
"Today the Buckfast bee from Buckfast Abbey contains heritage from mainly A.m. ligurica (ligustica) (North Italian), A.m. mellifera (English), A.m. mellifera (French), A.m. anatolica (Turkeish) and A.m. cecropia (Greek). The Buckfast bee of today may also contain heritage from A.m. sahariensis and A.m. monticola." 
The process is continuing today and there are new groups that appear better than the original. Since the threats are changing, the genetic resistance must change. The USDA stopped imports back in 1922 so there is not much diversity and a lot more inbreeding after 88 years. They do recognize the problem and allow in frozen sperm that does not show any titers of diseases (that we really want to breed for resistance).


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

_"*Genetic depression* is maintained by having multiple sources of the same numbered stock." _

First time I have seen the term,.genetic depression, unless it is about mental problems. Found one reference about isolated populations of panthers in Florida. > http://www.defenders.org/programs_a...d_and_recovery/threats/genetic_depression.php

Wiki has something regarding inbreeding depression. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding_depression


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

i've always thought of hybrid vigor as nothing more than a "lack of inbred characteristics".

there are queens you can purchase that are true hybrids....distinct inbred lines are crossed. these lines are _really_ inbred....they can't support themselves, they can't produce enough brood to grow...frames of brood and honey have to be constantly fed into these colonies. compared to the inbred colonies, the first generation hybrid shows "hybrid vigor".

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Mating with one drone, or multiple drones of the same genetics equates to a 50/50 chance of inheriting chalkbrood resistance.


but:


> Now, if the queen mates with many drones of different genetics, and some of those drones carry the genes for chalkbrood resistance, the colony is more likely to be resistant to chalk.


ok....by what you describe, we can assume chalk resistance to be dominant...only has to be inhereted from one parent. (i'm sure chalk resistance is more complicated and variable than this, but let's just keep it simple).

so: Queen A does not carry chalk resistance, and she mates with 20 drones, all from different colonies/genetics. 10 of the drones carry chalk resistance, 10 don't. 50% of the workers in this hive carry chalk resistance, as do 50% of the queens. 0% of the drones have chalk resistance (CR).

Queen B is the daughter of queen A and one of the drones that carries CR. 50% of her female offspring carry CR, 50% of her drones carry CR. Let's assume that 50% CR results in observable, desireable resistance to chalkbrood (i don't know if that's a reasonable assumption...but for the sake of discussion)

Now, a queen mating with a single drone from Queen B's colony has a 50% chance of inheriting CR...but mating with 2 drones from that colony could lead to 25% chance of all female offspring to carry CR, 25% chance that none of the female offspring would carry CR, and a 50% that half the female offspring would carry CR.....so, again assuming that 50% and 100% CR is significant, there is a 75% chance that the resulting colony will be chalkbrood resistant _if_ the queen mates with 2 drones from the same hive (vs 50% is she mates with one drone).

does this make sense? am i missing something?

deknow


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Used to raise sheep for many years. Used cross-breeding all the time. There is definitely hybrid vigor in animals. Well documented and sound animal husbandry. Go out west and see all those white face, black steers. True hybrids from Herefords and Black Angus. I would think it would also translate to bees.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Hybrid vigor is done by taking two pure lines, each with disirable characteristics that are lacking in the other, and breeding them together. As the results the dominant qualities from each line will come through making a good overall hybrid. Breeding the hybrids back to the original parental line or to its siblings is unlikely to give the same results.

Does that mean that pure line are not good. Well, let's think of leghorn chicken. That bird was developed by many generation of inbreeding. I doubt anyone will say that they are inferior because they are inbred. In fact they are so inbred, that all of the lethal genes have been taken out of them. They can inbreed for many generation with very little depression. 

Depression comes from focusing on desirable traits, while ignoring selection for lack of undesirable. So if in bees you are selecting for a quick spring buildup, you might ignore the resistance to varoa trait. In the end you end up with a queen that lays non-stop, but all of her progeny is deformed. You need to select for everything you desire and lack of everyting you do not desire. Only then the inbreeding depression will not occur to you. 

Unfortunately it means that from a desirable queen you need to raise hundreds of daughters and select maybe 5-10 for the next generation. On top of that you need to fight multiple mating from unknown drones and the fact that drones from different hives can enter your hive unnoticed. How you can guarantee that your drones are pure? I guess selecting by queen performance and hope for the best as far as the drones is probably the only way to go.


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

The biology is very impressive with a bee. Which would be the best source of information on how the queen bee process the genetic materials? 

It kind of confuses me to a point. The sperm within the queen mixes thus producing a brood of resistant bees? I wonder how it is processed and can use one of my hives in which the color traits of the queen brood are different colors within the same hive. Some are very yellow/orange while other are black. These are Carnie/Russian Hybrids hives.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I believe that one egg and one sperm= one bee (worker). But say that 50% of the drones that the queen mated with carried resistant genes than a certain percentage of the workers would express those genes. Every worker in the hive does not have to be resistant to have a hive that is. The coloration is an example of that. Different father means different genetics in the hive every worker is not equal, some will have different colors, hygienic behaviors and resistant traits. 

That is my take on it anyway.
Dan


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Ok, so the sperm mixes, but it does not blend. So the sperm from drone 1, drone 2, and drone 3 will produce offspring which are a combination of drone1and queen, or drone2 and queen and drone3 and queen, not drone1,2,3 and queen. Therefore all the worker bees are at most full siters, at at least half sisters (With a common mother and different fathers). THerefore your assumtpion that they would be resistant just because there are different drones is not based on mechanics of genetics.

The reasons you have different collors is as follows. If one drone was orange but the other one was black, the workers that were fertilized by orange drone's sperm will come out orange and the other ones black. I realize that you are not familiar with genetic, so I will not add the fact that the queen herself can be heterzygous for color variation, but I think you get the jist of it. There is no blending of sperm, each sperm cell keeps the characteristics of the drone that produced it. I doubt the queen can control which sperm fertilizes her egg, though she can control whether or not the egg is fertilized.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

deknow said:


> ok....by what you describe, we can assume chalk resistance to be dominant...only has to be inhereted from one parent. (i'm sure chalk resistance is more complicated and variable than this, but let's just keep it simple).


I was only using this as an example, trying to keep it simple as you say. Don't assume anything. I can't remember if he said it was a dominant trait or not. If so, then it wouldn't matter who the queen mated with. At any rate, the idea is that the colony has a better chance having some degree of resistance to chalk depending on which drones the queen mated with. If she mates with only one drone the chance is 50/50. The more drones she mates with from different stocks the greater the chance the colony will show some degree of resistance, since every bee in the colony doesn't have to posses those genetics.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

AramF said:


> The reasons you have different collors is as follows. If one drone was orange but the other one was black, the workers that were fertilized by orange drone's sperm will come out orange and the other ones black. I realize that you are not familiar with genetic, so I will not add the fact that the queen herself can be heterzygous for color variation, but I think you get the jist of it. There is no blending of sperm, each sperm cell keeps the characteristics of the drone that produced it. I doubt the queen can control which sperm fertilizes her egg, though she can control whether or not the egg is fertilized.


That's right. But there are both black and orange bees in the hive. And suppose it only takes some black bees to either resist...maybe the wrong word...better to say clean up the chalk. As long as there are the black cleaner up bees, no matter the %...see?


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_In my experience, with bees, hybrid vigor usually means they are vicious._

The F1 generation should exhibit the hybrid vigor, but I have heard several reports of the F1 generation being very gentle, with subsequent generations turning vicious. (aka not growing true to parent) Russians and Buckfast bees have reputations for turning vicious after supercedure. Supposedly, the original German Black bee, when it crossed with the Italian, created a bee that was absolutely miserable. (The original German Black bee was supposedly gentle, but did not get the mean reputation until after crossing with the Italian.)

I am not familiar with hybrid vigor being limited to just one trait, so I have no idea why people are using single traits as examples.

I'm not interested in breeding for specific traits in a bee. I want my end result to be good quality hives. Take Mike Palmer's breeding approach - instead of trying to isolate individual characteristics, simply breed from the strongest hives you have coming out of winter. I want to breed queens with a package of overall good traits.

If I have a queen from a good hive, and I raise daughters from her all mated in the same mating yard, those daughters 'should' be similarly mated as they should have similar exposure to drones from the same hives. However, individual performance from each daughter will vary. Some will be good like the parent, and some will be duds.

To my way of thinking, that sounds just like how an F2 (or F3 or F4 or F5) generation works.

To my way of thinking, shouldn't we cull the undesirable F2 stock, and breed from the members of the F2 generation that displayed the overall characteristics we like? This is what most folks try to do - breed from the best stock.

If we keep breeding the few stock in each generation (F2, F4, F5 etc) that exhibit the overall characteristics we like, eventually the rate of occurrence will increase. We will be refining and breeding for natural vigor - a vigor that is apparent in every generation.

However, if we keep bringing in new stock, which will work to breed out natural vigor by creating hybrids....right?

Yes, we want to have a large gene pool _at the very beginning_ so that we have the best chance of finding the genetic combination we like. Once we identify good stock, shouldn't we stop bringing in new genetic material and concentrate on refining what we have?

Maybe I'm naive, but I consider the talk of inbreeding to be less of a problem than folks make it out to be. Normally you need several generations of one family line breeding back to back before you start seeing problems, and a little mixed blood (supplied by feral drones) cleans up the problems. Once you have a good base stock, you should be able to bring in small amounts of better/good genetics to improve your stock and prevent serious genetic bottlenecks.

To limit inbreeding, you have to marry someone more distant than a 3rd cousin. (Yes, I have seen closed marriage societies that originated from a select few families - and yes, even if they marry past the 3rd cousin the genetic pool is so limited that they have higher rates of dwarfism and retardation, but the vast majority of Amish are still pretty good stock.)


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

>>>If I have a queen from a good hive, and I raise daughters from her all mated in the same mating yard, those daughters 'should' be similarly mated as they should have similar exposure to drones from the same hives. However, individual performance from each daughter will vary. Some will be good like the parent, and some will be duds.<<<

Well, I think breeding many and selecting the ones that behave the way you want is a good idea. The only issue is that this was the management style of the people who ended up with africanized hybrids from drones that wondered into the "same mating yard." But you can always hope for the best.

Commenting on the bees turning nasty after two generations. I bet that gentle behaviour is what Darwin would have called a "monstrocity" caused by human selection in bees. Once we start hybridizing, the bees begin to revert back to their natural state as more variety of genes become available. If you let all of the fancy white, brown and blue breeds of pigeons breed at their leisure, pretty soon you end up with a grey street pigeon. If you let Rhode Island Red **** cover a Leghorn hen, then 90% of daughters want to incubate eggs, while none of the parents ever go broody. 

Gene interactions are extremely interesting, but given bees non-selective breeding behavior with many drones, even if you get some amazing queen, 2 to 3 generations down the road, you are probably going to end up with a fairly average daughters. So breeding many and selecting a few that work for every generation is probably a more successfull strategy then genetic selection.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> At any rate, the idea is that the colony has a better chance having some degree of resistance to chalk depending on which drones the queen mated with. If she mates with only one drone the chance is 50/50. The more drones she mates with from different stocks the greater the chance the colony will show some degree of resistance, since every bee in the colony doesn't have to posses those genetics.


i understand the example (and understand that it is simplified for discussion sake).

but

unless you are working with "pure strains" (in which desired traits are fixed from both the mother and father side), it doesn't make sense (to me, this morning).

every bee in the hive does not have to carry the desired trait (CR), and every drone from the hive does not necessarily carry CR (let's assume 50% of drones from a single colony carry CR). 

a single queen mating with 2 drones from such a colony has more than a 50% chance of inheriting CR..the same chance she has if she mates with 2 drones from separate colonies (if each colony produces 50% drones with CR and 50% without). increasing the number of drone source colonies doesn't change the chances of inheriting a specific trait (or gene) _unless_ some of the drone source colonies have a higher incidence of these traits than others.

the logic you are presenting works for organisms that have single matings...but bees are so much more complex, and most of us aren't dealing with pure (II) strains (thank god...it just isn't how "bees work").

deknow


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Dean, I don't know what else to say about it. I find the study to be understandable. So, read it yourself....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691209/pdf/12596763.pdf


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I have read some very confused information written by some who doesn't understand the mating process and the laying procedure of the Queen. Then there are some that seem to understand and have not commented back. Some have stated situations that could only be done with genetic manipulation, and could never be accomplished with just breeding.
I completely understand the hybrid vigor concept in animals as I bred seedstock cattle for many years. As has been stated previously it does work but only for the current generation and is not passed on into the next. let me throw a little tid bit for humor in here that is really true. In the cattle business, and I assume most other animals. It is if it works it is line breeding, and if if comes out bad it is inbreeding. With the best of my limited knowledge I believe that when you have differing genetics that can mate and produce offspring, then the offspring will be sterile and unable to reproduce. My example being The mule which is 1/2 horse and 1/2 ass or donkey. I would imagine if the honeybee crossed with a bumblebee then the same could happen. The horse and donkey are both equine but genetically far apart. This is in my opinion what the term hybrid is best understood as. But hybrid can be applied to any crossing of genetics, and their offspring.
With bees the queen is mated to many drones. So if the mating is not COMPLETELY controlled you can't predict with any certainty what the offsprings charateristics will be. The only way to be 100% sure is with II or AI in my world, and only then after the drones have been dna tested. Can anyone tell me how to COMPLETELY control the drone fathers and their mating with a queen? 
When you speak of hybrid Russians, for example, you are merely talking about a pure Russian queen that is open mated, thereby creating a hybrid offspring of 1/2 Russian and 1/2 whatever sperm she uses on that particular egg. BUT, if the sperm she uses should be from a pure Russian drone is that offspring a hybrid? In my opinion no.
The mutts that we speak of are generations of crossing genetics, and that is only good if the mutts we are keeping have developed good traits thru generations of naturally crossbreeding, and sometimes I'm sure, line breeding. 
So this is one reason that I decided to go to the pure Russian genetics that I now have their traits are/should be more across the board predictable. As are the strains that people like Russell Apiaries, and BWeaver, just to name a couple for examples, have produced by either genetic manipulation or years of breeding for the best. 
I hope that I have thourghly confused some of you'll as I think I am confused myself.:lookout:
I hope Mr. Robert Russell will chime in here,hopefully he has since I started my post.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_every bee in the hive does not have to carry the desired trait (CR), and every drone from the hive does not necessarily carry CR (let's assume 50% of drones from a single colony carry CR).

a single queen mating with 2 drones from such a colony has more than a 50% chance of inheriting CR._

But in order for the queen to pass on the chalk resistance to the next generation, a new queen must be raised from an egg fertilized with sperm from a CR drone. If you don't do that, you just have to hope and pray your virgins queens keep finding some CR drones to mate with.

_It is if it works it is line breeding, and if if comes out bad it is inbreeding._

I understand the concept of line breeding. What I don't understand is why people keep wanting to continuously add new genetics to water down the line, thinking they will get a stronger line overall.

How hard is it to inbreed bees if someone wanted to? Does it actually happen very often, or is talk of inbreeding bees just more fear mongering with little actual basis?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> I find the study to be understandable. So, read it yourself....


ok, i see. he is comparing queens mated with one drone to queens mated with 2 drones of different colonies...he did not compare either of these to a queen mated with 2 drones from the _same_ colony.

i think you misstated dave's study...you said:


> Mating with one drone, or multiple drones of the same genetics equates to a 50/50 chance of inheriting chalkbrood resistance.


...the study you pointed to doesn't give any mention of "multiple drones of the same genetics".

i think that if there were 2 different drone sources, each with 50% of the drones carrying CR, that it wouldn't matter if a queen mated with one drone from each colony, or with 2 drones from the same hive.

...also, wrt Dave's paper....


> I chose 24 colonies
> as the male (drone) sources, all of which were unrelated
> to the maternal source and to each other. I obtained sexually
> mature drones by capturing them at their hive entrances as they
> returned from unsuccessful mating flights.


??? how did he know a drone was on a mating flight?
??? how did he know the drone was returning to the hive in which he was born?
??? given the above, how did he know they were unrelated to each other?

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Countryboy said:


> How hard is it to inbreed bees if someone wanted to? Does it actually happen very often, or is talk of inbreeding bees just more fear mongering with little actual basis?


it's not hard...but (as i've said in other threads), the first symptoms of inbreeding aren't subtle (spotty brood pattern due to haploid drones being removed), and even if the beekeeper misdiagnosed the cause of the spotty brood, requeening is likely at least part of what the beekeeper would do (and unless one is requeening with inbred stock, inbreeding problem solved).

deknow


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## little55 (Aug 6, 2008)

Are Minnesota Hygienic hybrid vigor or natural? The genetics are well documented.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

MH stock was developed from the old Starline bee.The Starline was a cross between several lines. First two inbred lines were crossed producing daughter queens. Two separate inbred lines were crossed to produce daughters. The two daughter groups were crossed to form the Starline bee. Hybrids I would say.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> MH stock was developed from the old Starline bee.The Starline was a cross between several lines. First two inbred lines were crossed producing daughter queens. Two separate inbred lines were crossed to produce daughters. The two daughter groups were crossed to form the Starline bee. Hybrids I would say.


Or maybe just genetically mutts with predictability.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

One sperm + One egg Does = one bee... And I think it would create a little clarity to further explain that there are two forms of hybrids in the bee industry...

1. Hybrid Queens - Offspring of queens that were mated with separate breeds.

2. Hybrid Colonies - (diversity through breeds, not merely family lines or "blood"). A colony made up of several different strains of bees... due to the queen being mated with drones of several different breeds.

There are also two different forms of hybrid production (other than II) in this discussion that I think may be confusing some...

1. Breed hybrids (mixed breeds)- Ie.. russian/italian, carniolan/amm, and so on... and keep in mind that the mix does not stop at two breeds... it can continue as far as your means can..

2. Developemental hybrids (mixed lineages of the same breed)- Ie.. Carniolans from NZ/Slovenia/Ukraine bred openly and the selectively bred again and again to develop stock with the most desirable traits.. 


A good example of this would be the VSH model that was earlier mentioned by MP (I think)... 

The result of an Italian queen from a lineage that has never been exposed to VD, mated with 16 drones of like colonies and one drone from a colony that had been exposed to VD for 16 years and was showing good VSH behavior, would be a 50/50 chance that the eggs that the queen uses his sperm to fertilized would produce VSH bees... The bees that are created by his sperm would account for somewhere around 3.352% of the colony at any given time... Thus if half of his offspring carried his VSH trait, the VSH bees within the colony would make up around 1.676% of its total numbers... 

The more VSH drones you add, the more rapidly the % rises... If the queen herself were created with even 1 VSH drone, then the % would be much higher as well...

This example is dealing with one base breed however, there are literally thousands of conclusions that can be created, but only a few hundred have a notable difference... 

Hybrids are extremely useful in many applications, yet there is a great need for base genetics as well... 

We maintain base stock of many lines... We also create hybrids via II and open mating practices... 

The thing to remember is that each blend will change with each generation... allowing natural requeening will create new mixes every time when using hybrids... and eventually, the majority will rule and the yard will once again become the base strain... Most people look at this in reverse, thinking that the more they continue to mix freely, the deeper the mix will become... but in actuality all mixes are breeding back to the prime breed in the area.. thus the mix has to be maintained in order to continue the traits that were bred for in the beginning...

The genetic depth of any stock is simply in the numbers... Queens of different lineages are everywhere. Inbreeding stock will give you only so long before you realise that you need new queens AND drones... here we use the term mostly to refer to breeding within the same species, not lineage... Sure all bees originated from one mating pair at some point in time, but over 100 million years is a bit excessive to worry about... 

We order queens and/or sperm from different parts of the world to maintain genetic diversity WITHIN each breed... THEN we mix the breeds... Its also important to note that each breed has been selectively bred and tested for all aspects of desirable traits, BEFORE any particular hives are chosen to use in the creation of our hybrids...

Yes, creating and maintaining any true hybrid line takes a very very large number of hives... but requeening is always an option that works well for smaller operations... And although I strongly suggest that everyone with 50+ hives should at least TRY queen rearing, if for nothing more than their own knowledge, I will say that you should be careful when grafting from hybrid hives... The next generation may be the exact oposite of what you want, and I have heard many horror stories about people requeening ALL of their hives after grafting from a Hybrid colony... 

To anyone wishing to get a better understanding of this, I suggest you get one AMM queen, and one Cordovan. Place both hives in isolated areas and keep them from swarming... Set up a few nucs and graft from each hive, then plant the cells in the opposite yards to mate with the opposite color... If you have II you could use all yellow drones but one... or the other way around... and II is much more acurate and much faster, but you will get the idea quite well in the open yard as well. Color is a great indicator that you can easily see what amount each drone (and each father of the queen) can effect the hive as a whole.

Hope this helps.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks for this post. I'm having trouble understanding how breeding works.



rrussell6870 said:


> and one drone from a colony that had been exposed to VD for 16 years and was showing good VSH behavior, would be a 50/50 chance that the eggs that the queen uses his sperm to fertilized would produce VSH bees... The bees that are created by his sperm would account for somewhere around 3.352% of the colony at any given time...
> 
> Why is there a 50/50 chance of an egg fertilized by sperm from a VSH drone being VSH? It looks to me like it would be 100%.
> 
> ...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

heaflaw said:


> Why is there a 50/50 chance of an egg fertilized by sperm from a VSH drone being VSH? It looks to me like it would be 100%.
> 
> Also, I didn't follow the math for 3.352%. 100/17=5.88


VSH is a trait, not ALL traits are going to show in every offspring... 

Two people with blue eyes have a child with brown eyes... the grandfather's brown eyes came through for one reason or another... 

Honey bee genetics are quite complex in that there are about 17 fathers in every queen... and 17 fathers for each queen before that... Drones eggs are not fertilized by a fathers sperm, thus they are mirrors of the queens genetics only... This means that for him to carry a VSH trait, the queen that created him has to carry that trait, and this cycle must go back all the way to the point that the trait was created due to the stress from VD... 

So VSH traits from a drone that came from a hive that is showing VSH behavior does not HAVE to reflect in his offspring... and in fact is not very likely as the queens genetics passed through the egg are only around 43% of the total genetics that will make up the offspring... Its a good average to say around 50% because of that factor... Queen=43% Drone=57%

I think that may answer the second part of your question as well...

You have to take the queens 43% in account as well... Her traits will show in almost half of the cases... 

The calculation I used is simply only counting the genetics of the drones... the 57%

57/17= 3.352 then take in account the 50/50 variable 
3.352/2= 1.676

Sorry, I could have been more clear that I was calculating drone influence... 

You had one more question, but I didnt get a chance to copy it in the top...

"... and eventually, the majority will rule and the yard will once again become the base strain... Most people look at this in reverse, thinking that the more they continue to mix freely, the deeper the mix will become... but in actuality all mixes are breeding back to the prime breed in the area.. thus the mix has to be maintained in order to continue the traits that were bred for in the beginning..."

"Could you explain this more why this is true?"

Look at the genetic make up of a bee as a set of numbers... (just lost the 72% of the population that hates math! lol)

If each breed within that queens genetic history was represented by a number (amount actually present in her genome), one breed would have a higher number... Even if she is base Italian and all 17 drones were russian, the russian genetics would be higher in her offspring (and thus in the next queen).. The same is true for every drone in the yard, so as each hive requeens itself and each virgin mates with drones from the area, that number changes each time (for the queen, AS WELL AS the drones that she produces)... which ever breed ends up with the highest number each time will continue to gain a higher number each time until the other breeds have completely been bred out... 

Hope I didnt give you a head ache...:scratch::s lol. If I didn't explain it well enough, I would be happy to try again tomorrow. It has gotten late here, so I am not so great at clarity at the moment.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

I have practiced genetics in chickens, turkeys and pigeons. Genetics are a lot of fun. There are very simple rules of inheritance, but there are lots of little things like dominance, condominance, incomplete dominance and recessiveness that sort of tinker with the results of your crosses.

From reading some of the questions being asked and the answers it is becoming very clear that the people asking questions will not always understand the answers untill they learn the basics.

For example, humans have basically 3 eye colors (with many modifiers), but basically 3 colors. Brown, Green and Blue. If a person inherits one copy of brown genes from dad and blue genes from mom, then he will show brown color 100% of the time. So he has 50% of genes, but does not show one brown and one blue eye, because brown is dominant over blue. It is dominant over green too, but not completely, so you'll sort of get some brownish mixture. Now, if the person gets one blue from mom and one blue from dad, the chidren will only have blue eyes. Because blue is a recessive. In order for a recessive gene to come trhough, then both parents have to carry recessive gene. And yes, in humans in appears that every once in a while, two blue eyed parents will have brown colored kid. First reason is obvious (fidelity to the partner). But second reason is that there are color intensifiers in human genes, so what appears to be brown is actually an extremely intensive blue color, not brown.

I do not think that things like dominance, and genotypes and phenotypes are explained very well in this thread, therefore I suggest that people who are not familiar with genetics read up on it on wikipedia or like sites. It will make all of the answers here so much more clear, you won't regret it. I just looked in wikipedia under genetic and PUnnet square and there is quite a bit of good information available.

Just to clarify something for my self, what are considered dominant and recessive genes in bees. Is there a website that lists them?


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## bot (Mar 18, 2009)

AramF said:


> Just to clarify something for my self, what are considered dominant and recessive genes in bees. Is there a website that lists them?


Here's a little info at Glenn Apiaries:
http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetic_aspects_queen_production_1.html

-John McNeil


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

rrussell6870, 

Could you please explain the statement below? I am not familiar with these percentages.

Thanks,
Joe

"You have to take the queens 43% in account as well... Her traits will show in almost half of the cases... 

The calculation I used is simply only counting the genetics of the drones... the 57%"


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Sure Joe,

These are simply base percentages that we use for quick calculations. Using SNPS from the genome of a queen and comparing with SNPS from the genome of her offspring we noted that around 43% of the SNPS were directly passed from the queen... leaving about 57% from the drone.


Hope this helps!

PS... I have been meaning to ask you... Do you offer your Instruments in large orders? We were considering purchasing about 35 of them for a class. 
PM me if you will..

Thanks!


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

AramF said:


> And yes, in humans in appears that every once in a while, two blue eyed parents will have brown colored kid. First reason is obvious (fidelity to the partner). But second reason is that there are color intensifiers in human genes, so what appears to be brown is actually an extremely intensive blue color, not brown.


Wonder how many husbands are looking at their wife and kids a little bit sideways tonight? lol. There is a bit more to it, but you get the idea... in bees (as with humans), you can take it a few steps further by including the grandparents, great grands and so on... 

This would be SO much easier to explain if I had an online chalkboard. 

Again, a great way to get a hands-on understanding of the effects of breeding hybrids would be to take a Cordovan queen and a AMM queen, separate them into isolated areas and then graft from each and breed the virgins in the opposite areas, so that the Cordovan Queens will be mated by AMM (Black) drones and the AMM queens will be mated with Cordovan drones... The effects are easy to see, and as you continue to graft and breed future gens, you can easily see a deeper range of effects.

I would also suggest at least attempting II.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Thanks, but I am still uncertain of the percentages. The good old standard is 50/50 with some suggestion of maternal and paternal influence. It is my understanding that SNPs provide markers, but are not indicative of complete gene activity. 

Greg Hunt, from Purdue, recently presented some exciting genetic based work to demonstrate there is evidence to suggest imprinting, in his case a greater influence from the paternal side, for defensive behavior. I am working from memory as his work is not published yet, but I believe it was only 1 or 2 percent greater influence from the male contribution for the defensive behavior.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Its possible, again this is from one queen and one offspring... certainly greater percentage from the male though. This could be different in with each specie, as well as each subject.. 

These numbers have been used in quick calculations, and seem fairly accurate thus far... a little more, little less is always possible... after all, nature has more control than we do.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Honey bee genetics are quite complex in that there are about 17 fathers in every queen... and 17 fathers for each queen before that..._

Could you explain that? Do sperm cells from 17 different drones all unite with one single egg to create a queen? That sounds a little far fetched to me.

It is my understanding that one sperm from one drone unites with one egg to create a queen. Regardless of how many drones the queen mother mated with, only one sperm from one drone fertilizes the egg. The genetics from all other drones the queen mother mated with are not passed on to the daughter queen. The hive may possess other genetic traits through workers, which inherited the traits from drone fathers, until those workers die of old age and the new daughter queen's offspring replace them. (However, those traits may still appear if the daughter queen mated with drones that had that trait, even if the new queen does not possess the trait in her genetics, making it more difficult to tell if the trait is in the hive through drone fathers of workers or if the queen carries the trait.)

_Greg Hunt, from Purdue, recently presented some exciting genetic based work to demonstrate there is evidence to suggest imprinting, in his case a greater influence from the paternal side, for defensive behavior. I am working from memory as his work is not published yet, but I believe it was only 1 or 2 percent greater influence from the male contribution for the defensive behavior. _

From what I understand:
Africanized queen mated with Africanized drone - mega defensive/vicious
Africanized queen mated with European drone - hot, but not quite as vicious
European queen mated with Africanized drone - mildest of AHB genetic lines, but still pretty dang mean

If drone genetics carry more weight concerning defensive behavior, I would expect a European queen mated to an AHB drone to be more defensive than an Africanized queen mated to a European drone - but that's the opposite of what I understand.

Or does the hybridization of crossing the AHB and Euro lines affect this beyond the paternal influence?


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## mackelby (Dec 5, 2010)

Lets not forget the occasional mutation


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> _Honey bee genetics are quite complex in that there are about 17 fathers in every queen... and 17 fathers for each queen before that..._
> 
> Could you explain that? Do sperm cells from 17 different drones all unite with one single egg to create a queen? That sounds a little far fetched to me.


Countryboy,

We were discussing "Honey Bee" genetics, not the genetics of one queen - then her daughter... The great complexity comes from looking at the colony as a whole unit made up of genetics of different mixtures... The amount of each mixture into the colony as a whole can greatly determine the actions and or main notable "characteristics" of the Colony, as opposed to one bee...

During the time that a hive is made up of "lets just say" 17 different types of bees... from 17 different fathers, and most were a hybrid of different nature, yet all were of different strains....then the hive requeens and again "lets just say" the virgin mates with 17 different drones each from different strains... for some period of time, there will be 34 different hyrid strains within the one colony... this is a form of the complexity that we were discussing... how would a single trait be calculated within this colony?.... it wouldn't, at least not be me. lol. I will just say that nature wins... everytime... lol. 

Both of my parents had blue eyes, both of my wifes have blue eyes, my grandfather on my fathers side had brown eyes, as did my wifes grandmother... I have Blue eyes... my wife has brown... what color eyes do our children have??? My oldest has brown, and both others have blue... nature makes its way... in school the prof hated situations like this... he would just throw up his hands and say "NEW MODEL"... refusing to admit that genetic science has no "true rules", but in reality this world breaks our rules everyday... ANYTHING is possible, the key is not to find the definates, it's to find the probabilities...

On your second question about the AHB drone/Italian Queen... Again, I will note that our conclusion was from one queen and one offspring... Although the calculation proves quite effective in determining outcomes of hybrid colonies. It is still possible that different breeds or even different subjects could change the conclusion. I have not had misfortune of working with any AHB colonies here, so I couldnt tell you whether queen or drone passes along more.

Hope this helps!


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

To those of you who know 20 times more about bee genetics than us hobbyists will ever know:

If we have 10 (or 20 or 30) successful hives, should we be bringing in outside genetics after x number of years?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I feel that it is important, but I am a breeder, so my operation requires it... with careful placement and good record keeping as well as good management practices, you could get away without it... but its best to start out with stock from different lineages and keep a good accounting of what is what so that you don't run into trouble. A few well placed mated queens from a different stock can keep things mixed up if you are grafting your own queens for splits.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

heaflow, if you have 10 successfull hives and they are all basically unrelated to each other, I would not bring in any new blood as long as your new daughter queens are peforming as well or better to their mothers. In about 5 to 10 generations you will probably have hives that all behave very similarly to each other because they will all be closely related bees from the original exceptional parental lines (assuming you are far enough removed from other beeks)


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

rrussell6870 said:


> Both of my parents had blue eyes, both of my wifes have blue eyes, my grandfather on my fathers side had brown eyes, as did my wifes grandmother... I have Blue eyes... my wife has brown... what color eyes do our children have??? My oldest has brown, and both others have blue... nature makes its way... in school the prof hated situations like this... he would just throw up his hands and say "NEW MODEL"... refusing to admit that genetic science has no "true rules", but in reality this world breaks our rules everyday... ANYTHING is possible, the key is not to find the definates, it's to find the probabilities...
> 
> This is exactly the statement that I have been waiting for. I fully realize that I can only most of the time understand what you are saying. But from being old and having bred/linebred cattle for a number of years, I fully understand that about the time you think you've got everything under control mother nature will throw you a curve. It is exacerbated by the fact that a colony of bees can have many differient genetics intertwined and fully ready to pass on the same to your neighbors bees thru the drones from each queen in your apiary. Even with the most dominant of genes you can sometimes get a mutation, I assume because of a reccessive gene that won't go away.
> With pure Russian bees, I still have varying genetics from every queen, if my understanding is correct. For every % of impurity, which is common, I have a chance, or probability of having, some mutts. Am I thinking right?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

You are exactly right. Primorsky are a blend of several breeds themselves... through so many generations that "blend" begins to stick, however, each lineage will variate somewhat, and each generation will produce a slightly different colony.

As a rancher, you can probably compare it to Quarter Horses... Several blended breeds... Adding more Thoroughbred doesnt neccessarily mean it will no longer be a Quarter Horse, but it will MOST LIKELY (theres that "probability over definates" again) be larger, have a little more endurance, and certainly be a little more hard headed...lol... But even though you know what you are mixing, doesnt mean that nature agrees with you... it is still possible that you could get a 14hh, short winded, dead head that is quick out of the gate, but wont stay in front from the first foal, and get what you wanted out of the next...

Does that make better sense?
"bet we just confused a few others though":scratch: lol.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Yeah, I am just trying to put it in layman terms (me) so that most of us get the idea. 

Thanks a million for being here!!!


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

So, instead of starting a new thread, there have been several on this same general topic, what strategies can a small queen breeder use to maintain, or improve, colony vigor?

For example, should I get a "breeder" queen from different strains every other year? How often should I get a queen(s) to raise drones from?

If I only have half the hives in a five mile radius of my mating yard how much can I impact the mating of my virgin queens? Can I do anything to try and maintain my "type"?

Tom


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

My idea of keeping diversity with predictability in your hives is to requeen yearly. I would suggest that if you are getting your queens from a single source that you keep track of what genetics that you have from your breeder so you can select differient genetics, assuming that they have several lines to choose from. I just don't know how often you should rotate the genetics back to where you started. I would think a 5 year cycle should keep inbreeding at bay. Maybe Mr. Russell will bail me out.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_We were discussing "Honey Bee" genetics, not the genetics of one queen - then her daughter... The great complexity comes from looking at the colony as a whole unit made up of genetics of different mixtures... The amount of each mixture into the colony as a whole can greatly determine the actions and or main notable "characteristics" of the Colony, as opposed to one bee..._

You're correct. We were talking about genetics, which involves trait heritability. What you are talking about is NOT genetics, as traits from certain drones are NOT passed on to subsequent generations. Certain traits a hive possesses right now because of outside paternal influences is analogous to a child dying their hair a different color, and us calling it a genetic condition. Present traits in a hive that are not heritable to subsequent generations are not genetic traits in my mind. They are behavioral traits.

Yes, drones may influence a hive's behavior in this present generation, but it is comparable to the influence of a step-parent in our lives. They may influence the behavior of step-children in this generation, but genetic influences are not passed on because we are genetically unrelated to them. While workers are genetically related to the drone fathers, the workers are incapable of reproduction, which means there is no heritability of drone traits in workers. The only way you get genetic heritability of drone traits is through the single drone father of the laying queen.

_If I only have half the hives in a five mile radius of my mating yard how much can I impact the mating of my virgin queens? Can I do anything to try and maintain my "type"?_

You can put more drone comb in the core of the broodnest, encouraging your bees to raise more drone brood. You may not be able to saturate the area with your drones, but you can increase the percentage of drones in the area to be drones from your own hives. For example, you may have half the hives, but 3/4 of the drones in the area are from your hives.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> _What you are talking about is NOT genetics, as traits from certain drones are NOT passed on to subsequent generations. Certain traits a hive possesses right now because of outside paternal influences is analogous to a child dying their hair a different color, and us calling it a genetic condition. Present traits in a hive that are not heritable to subsequent generations are not genetic traits in my mind. They are behavioral traits._


_

This is were the social order of honey bees makes the difference... Behavior is 99.99% of honey bee genetics... Outside of that you are left with color, size, and markings... thats about it...

Behavior is what we breed for... that is what makes the difference in the function, longevity, resistance, strength, and ability to serve our needs.

Not arguing with you, just trying to help... Honey bees are unlike almost every other creature that breeding practices are studied on, in the fact that it is not one creature that is being bred for... it is a society of creatures made up of several groups of selected purpose and each group can have too few or too many members.

For example... Lets say you have a VSH queen with a very high level of VSH behavioral traits bred into her lineage... Then you mate her with all VSH drones each with very high levels of VSH behavior within their lineage... The result on one hand would be a well bred VSH queen... But the result of the colony would be that productivity has taken a back seat to housekeeping... they would uncap far too much brood, and would build up extra slowly, and would no doubt be the worst honey producers in your yard... most likely this colony would not survive very long... BUT while they were around, they created drones... These drones will have surely met with a vigin queen or two in the area... so now that Colony has passed on the original queens genetic make up to a new generation of bees... Does that make better sense? 

"Yes, drones may influence a hive's behavior in this present generation, but it is comparable to the influence of a step-parent in our lives. They may influence the behavior of step-children in this generation, but genetic influences are not passed on because we are genetically unrelated to them. While workers are genetically related to the drone fathers, the workers are incapable of reproduction, which means there is no heritability of drone traits in workers. The only way you get genetic heritability of drone traits is through the single drone father of the laying queen."

The drones produced by each queen are copys "so to speak" of that queen... they do not possess any genetics from any drones that she has mated with... but they do possess the genetics of the drone that her mother mated with, and the one before that, and so... Each time the colony requeens itself, a fertilized egg is used to create the new queen... thus the new queen (and her drones) will be directly influenced by the drone whos sperm was used to fertilize the egg... the new offspring will be the product of both the drone and queen that produced the egg (and the ones that came before them), as well as the drone with whom she mates, and whos sperm is used to fertilize that offsprings egg...

To study one particular offspring would not give you enough insight to tell anything about the likely outcome of the mix... you would need to study the behavior of the colony as a whole to tell if you have created a successful stock... too much of anything is a bad thing, and over breeding in honey bees can ruin your stock... thats why it is important study the colony as one unit, instead of each bee within.

Hope this helps... again, not trying to argue, we usually see eye to eye... just wanted to point out the differences in Honey Bee breeding and that of other creatures... Hope you do not take offense to it..._


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Behavior is what we breed for... that is what makes the difference in the function, longevity, resistance, strength, and ability to serve our needs._

Are you breeding for heritable behavior, or incidental behavior (from drones of worker fathers, but not queen father) that is not a heritable behavior, and must be re-introduced at every new queen generation?

_Hope you do not take offense to it..._

No offense taken. You have a lot more experience with bee breeding than I do. I'm just trying to learn, but some stuff you're saying goes against my understanding of genetics and biology. It seems like you are not differentiating between behaviors that are genetically passed on to subsequent generations, and behaviors that are just present in this specific generation in a hive. It seems like you are talking about breeding behaviors into each specific generation, rather than developing lines which pass on behaviors genetically so that you do not have to keep trying to introduce the behavior at each generational mating. 

Your example of the VSH queen mating with VSH drones makes sense to me because you are talking about a trait the queen possesses, which is further amplified by VSH drones. But this example is NOT what you have been talking about. An example comparable to what you have been talking about would be a queen that was not VSH mated to VSH drones in order to have a VSH hive. What I am saying is that this works good in THIS present generation. As soon as the queen supercedes, you will either end up with a new queen that had a VSH father, or you will end up with a queen that does not have a VSH father. If you end up with a new queen that did not have a VSH father, the only way the hive will continue to be VSH is if the new queen mates with VSH drones.

Don't get me wrong. It would be a pain to isolate (but still possible) whether or not the queen carried the VSH trait, or if the hive showed the VSH trait due to workers whose fathers were drones. To isolate it, you would have to take the queen daughters and mate them with known non-VSH drones, and then see if the developed hives showed the VSH behavior or not. If the hives do show VSH, you know it is bred into the queen mother, and if it does not show up, we know the VSH behavior was a result of the workers whose drone fathers were VSH and not due to the queen.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I think I see where the confusion is coming from... I believe that we are on the same page, just looking at different levels of scope. 

My views of studying the colony, and breeding for a healthy mix of stock within that colony are ultimately in order to pass genetics from a large number of fertilized eggs from within that colony on to other colonies within a separate area, and drones from the original queen are not as important as those from subsequent queens from within that colony, because the later generations from this productive colony will in turn possess small amounts of the multiple traits that make up the colony... 

In a commercial breeding operation, this is the goal... select from the best overall colonies and spread those genetics as best as possible.

When you graft 88 cells from this productive hive, you are not taking a single mix of the queen and one drone... you are taking a mix of the queen and all of her mates several times over... thus these queens can either be mated in areas heavy with drones of equally impressive stock or be mated to certain stock in order to better the weakest points of the grafted colony through II. 

The key element is to produce as many generations as possible to blend as many of the desired stocks as you can into one solid hereditary line...

In my operation drones stock is controlled, as is my queen stock... I can trace the lineages of my II breeders back multiple generations with exact accuracy, and isolated mating yards are not too far behind... thus when I speak of a colony having hereditary genetics... this is what I am referring to.

Hope this helps.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> For example... Lets say you have a VSH queen with a very high level of VSH behavioral traits bred into her lineage... Then you mate her with all VSH drones each with very high levels of VSH behavior within their lineage... The result on one hand would be a well bred VSH queen... But the result of the colony would be that productivity has taken a back seat to housekeeping... they would uncap far too much brood, and would build up extra slowly, and would no doubt be the worst honey producers in your yard... most likely this colony would not survive very long... BUT while they were around, they created drones... These drones will have surely met with a vigin queen or two in the area... so now that Colony has passed on the original queens genetic make up to a new generation of bees... Does that make better sense?


Now this really helps! I have had a hard time of looking at the colony as a whole. My training in horticulture and experience breeding dogs has caused me to look at desirable individuals, breed the best to the best so to speak. In the case of breeding production queens you want the best of several types/traits to get the most desirable balance.

This was a very helpful post for me!

Tom


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_In a commercial breeding operation, this is the goal... select from the best overall colonies and spread those genetics as best as possible._

So in a smaller operation where you don't have as much influence and control, how would you improve quality?

The way I see it, if you can raise quality queens, the drones you produce will be good also. I think I should worry about queen quality (much easier for me to control) with drone quality being secondary and incidental. With multiple drones having influence on a hive, I can obtain benefits from the drones, even if their specific trait in not being inherited. I feel that if I can develop good individual queens, mated to who knows what, I have a better chance of developing a better hive. My good queen brings 50% of genetic traits (or 43% as you suggest) but it only takes one good drone out of 20 to bring beneficial traits. (Which makes me ask, what is the difference in hive quality if your queen mates with one good drone and the rest normal drones, versus 17 good drones? Say one drone is VSH, versus all drones being VSH - do the extra VSH drones amplify VSH effect, possibly to the detriment of the hive?)

It almost sounds like you are encouraging developing drones, and I will result in better hives. (less emphasis on individual queen quality.) Is this correct?

_*The key element is to produce *as many generations as possible to blend as many of the desired stocks as you can into *one solid hereditary line...*_

We're definitely on the same page on this.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

In a small operation you need to start out with the highest quality queens that you van and raise drones from the very best of those hives... in a large commercial operation there is the advantage of having thousands of hives to pick from and multiple lines of stock to blend for selective traits...

Yes... you should focus on raising the very best drones that you possibly can... it takes many good drones to mate quality queens... quality queens can be grafted from just one hive for a small operation... but they still have to be mated with unrelated, quality drones before they can produce a viable colony of their own... 

Each drone that mates with a queen will represent a percentage of the hive... if your queen only mates with one good drone and 16 poor drones... your hive will be poor... no matter what quality the queen was.

As a queen breeder the product that you sell is not merely a mated queen, it is a well bred queen that will produce a productive, disease resistant, gentle colony.... this can not happen unless the queen has mated with top quality drones... only.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Let's break it down using the vsh model... but let's add early build-up (ebu), calm nature (cn), further foraging distance (ffd), cooler temperature foraging (ctf), low propolis use (Lou), and cordovan color (cc)...

If your queen was grafted from stock that possesses all of these traits, and she is mated with feral drones that do not possess any of these traits, your hive will be made up of very poorly bred stock... as each bee within will be a little more than half feral and only have tiny portions of the traits that you desired. 

The only thing beneficial about this colony would be its drones... it would be useless to graft from it and they would not be productive for any thing else... the only thing you could do is put drone comb in it and prop it up when it falls behind, and pray that she doesn't swarm, because the new queen would be less than half of what the first was.

But if you can find colonies with queens that possess one or more of these traits, and use them to each produce the drones in your mating yard, then graft from a decent hive that carries a good size, color, heavy laying line of traits, then you have a well rounded production.

See where the importance of stronger selection of the drones comes in?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

rrussell6870 said:


> Let's break it down using the vsh model... but let's add early build-up (ebu), calm nature (cn), further foraging distance (ffd), cooler temperature foraging (ctf), low propolis use (Lou), and cordovan color (cc)...


No (thp)? that would be top honey producer? Oh yeah...you did say you don't produce honey. d


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

rrussell6870 said:


> If your queen was grafted from stock that possesses all of these traits, and she is mated with feral drones that do not possess any of these traits, your hive will be made up of very poorly bred stock... as each bee within will be a little more than half feral and only have tiny portions of the traits that you desired.
> 
> The only thing beneficial about this colony would be its drones...


Of course there are two very different views about this. As with dog breeding, there has been a very real tendency to "select" so much that we end up with a freak. Traits that you think are important (low propolis use, early build up, cordovan color, etc.) hold very little value to some (me). I can see where to a queen breeder it would be considered "very poorly bred stock" as you are trying to maintain stock that would otherwise go a different direction naturally. The Lusby's have intentionally injected "feral" stock into their operation, as have others. I myself do not want to be dependent on a breeder for the health and success of my bees. I'll work with the local feral stock.

Just another pov.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> No (thp)? that would be top honey producer? Oh yeah...you did say you don't produce honey. d


 The sad truth is that I actually make most of these post from my cell phone while "Doing" something else.... The ones in this thread were while my wife loaded the shopping cart that I was pushing. lol. 

I am trying to cut down the length of my posts but it isnt easy... So if you see the truck with the BEEMAN tag parked on the side of the road while the driver types on his phone....just give me a friendly honk and say "Wrap It Up"! :applause::lpf:


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Barry said:


> Of course there are two very different views about this. As with dog breeding, there has been a very real tendency to "select" so much that we end up with a freak. Traits that you think are important (low propolis use, early build up, cordovan color, etc.) hold very little value to some (me). I can see where to a queen breeder it would be considered "very poorly bred stock" as you are trying to maintain stock that would otherwise go a different direction naturally. The Lusby's have intentionally injected "feral" stock into their operation, as have others. I myself do not want to be dependent on a breeder for the health and success of my bees. I'll work with the local feral stock.
> 
> Just another pov.


Barry, I agree with their reasons for using feral stock... we do the same... we have kept an isolated location of "Mississippi Natives" since the late 50s... We know now that these are simply mixed up Italians, but they survived for a reason... Adapability... This is why we raise them and cross them into our Italian stock... They have never been treated, and even though half of them were wiped out in 98 from VD, the other half quickly began to show VSH behavior...

You bring up a great point though, that I think I should make a note of for those who are wanting to start breeding... (someone just honked..lol)...

Breeding is only a means of blending the desired traits that you have found... Selection is far more important... once you get the hang of breeding, you will be able to start mixing your best stock to continue those traits within your operation... BE CAREFUL to keep the lineages mixed, but continue to Selectively breed each season... This is how your queen stock gets ALL of the Desired traits within their lineage... Study, Study, Study your colonies... this is the only way that you will know which hives can provide which traits...

That said for queens... the opposite holds true for drones... In breeding, traits are highlighted by drones with more of one trait than that of a drone with a mixture of traits... By selecting colonies for each particular trait that you wish to focus on, you can produce drones that each carry higher amounts of genes that promote each trait...:scratch:

Ok, say you want to breed for Top Honey Production (thp) , you of course all ready have been breeding your queen stock for a heavy blend of ALL desired traits... So now you need to focus on the Drones...

Locate your (thp) colonies and place them in your mating yard (before the season) with drone combs in them... These drones should NOT be the only ones around... Diversity is more important...Dont over do it... It takes time to do it right, but it is well worth it in the end...

Let me go back to "Selection" and "Queens" real quick (wife has just filled the SECOND shopping cart with toys...And she is going to grab a 3rd!!! )

Using the same (thp) model... You want to start producing queens that create (thp) colonies... you study all of your colonies, and select 5-10 of the very best honey producers that you have... Can you graft from half of those hives and put drone comb in the other half and start producing (thp) queens... sort of... The queens that are in these colonies may not actually possess much of the (thp) traits that you see coming out in the colony... these traits could be mainly from the drones that she originally mated with...Causing the traits to show in their offspring (or a percentage of it)... This can be confusing at times... if the queen has a low amount of the traits, her drones will as well... even though the "Colony" as a whole is (thp) heavy, this is why you need to use several colonies and select from what you make off of them, then repeat again, and again.

Here is how you make this work... Graft large numbers of cells from each, place drone comb in the rest, let the new queens mate and watch what happens... after studying the new colonies, you will need to pick the best (thp) hives once again... then repeat the process again and again... I would also suggest using different drone colonies each time... this will assist you in keeping things mixed up... You graft from the next generation of queens that shows the most (thp)... and mate those new queens to the best (thp) drones from your yards... 

Just a reminder... DONT select for just one trait!!! I am just using this as an example... You need to select the best of the best... if you have an area that you wish to build in, you still select the best over all, but you choose the highest scoring in that area out of the best over all... (third cart is full and headed to check out... PRAY FOR ME!!!)


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> If your queen was grafted from stock that possesses all of these traits, and she is mated with feral drones that do not possess any of these traits, your hive will be made up of very poorly bred stock... as each bee within will be a little more than half feral and only have tiny portions of the traits that you desired.


I'd like an explanation of the math here. Why is a bee "a little more than half feral"? Does that mean the drone contributes "a little more than half" the genetic material? How do you figure that???


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Hybridisation between two closely related species is actually a common occurrence in nature. Many hybrid zones are known where the ranges of two species meet, and hybrids are continually produced in great numbers. These hybrid zones are useful as biological model systems for studying the mechanisms of speciation (Hybrid speciation).


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Check further back in the thread... it is explained.


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## Redneck (Oct 2, 2005)

Mr. Russel, Explain to me why it is so necessary to have a great number of drones flying when only a few will be mating with the virgin. I have never heard anyone explain this. Thanks for your reply. I realize the quality of queens do not seem to be as good as a few years back, but I have never tried any of yours.


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

if a queen can mate with up to 20 drones each( not sure of the exact number) if you are mating 5 queens you need 100 drones and the numbers go up as you have more queens to mate. each drone only mates one time then dies.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

That's right slick... there are several reasons to flood the area with good drones... 
1. To provide enough drones to successfully mate all of the queens that you wish to mate..
2. To provide enough "selected" drones to better your odds against your queens mating with local or "non-selected" drones from other hives.
3. Drones are slow flying, loud, and big... they make an easy meal for predators... so you will lose quite a few before they ever meet a queen.
4. The more available drones that are in the area, the more quickly and heavily the queens can mate... queens are also slow flying, large, and loud... the longer that they are out of the hive attempting to mate, the more likely they will end up a meal.
5. To provide as much chance of diversity as you can... the more hives that are producing drones, the more lineages that your queens can blend with.

Hope this helps!


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