# DO I need to treat first year package bees for mites?



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

I would do a sugar shake (powdered sugar in a jar with about a cup [300] of bees) and base my decision on the resulting mite count. I do not treat blindly. There has to be a reason.

JMO

Rusty


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

You might as well if you believe that all hives have mites.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

being new does not prevent them from becoming loaded down with mites or SHB.
as said, do a count, get the numbers and treat if needed.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

I had high mite levels in the Fall last year, my first year of beekeeping. I started from packages. Remember that the bees didn't pop out of nowhere, they likely came with mites on board.


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## SpringGreen (Jun 26, 2014)

I check my new hives every three weeks for mites. Knowledge gives one a chance to decide the next step, but not knowing is like trying to walk a wooded path in the dark...it might be fine, but you might find yourself in trouble pretty fast. 

Your bees could have been clean, but if they did any robbing of someone else's hives, they could have brought home a few mites.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>... if you believe that all hives have mites. 

It is a safe assumption that all hives in North America do have mites. Choosing to treat is another matter and the answer is not that simple. Some of it depend on if you are doing anything else for mites (natural comb, resistant bees etc.)

bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcellsize.htm

what your philosophy of beekeeping is 

bushfarms.com/beesphilosophy.htm

and what your mite load is

honeybeesuite.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/cfans_asset_317466.pdf

and what you want to do if it's high.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Splorndle said:


> I assume the answer is no because they have not had enough time to establish themselves?


You assume incorrectly, you need to TEST!


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

HA....not so...I started my colonies from NUCS. and I saw a few VD, aftr just 2 weeks...not many , and since i had never seen any before, it was eye opening. I do a mite drop every few weeks, but it takes 72 hours. I have had low mite counts but last week I counted the average at 9 for one of the hives and then noticed I had scraped away the middle while pulling it out of the hive.....so my count could be critically highger....I am going to do another tommorow but had to post a questions and saw this post and thought I had to give back and comment.....Monitor & treat as needed especially at this time of the year...


Splorndle said:


> I assume the answer is no because they have not had enough time to establish themselves?


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## dixieswife (Apr 15, 2013)

Borrowing this thread for my question:

We just did a mite count today on our 1st year hive. We cleaned off the bottom board, waited three days and pulled it out. Went over it with a magnifying glass, plucked mites onto a tissue and counted. We had 70 mites. Edit: By contrast, our top bar hive, after 72 hours, had 30 mites drop.

Should we:

1) Medicate, then do another count post-treatment? If medicate, what's the best choice for very hot weather? Our summers have been in the high-90s to 100s lately and don't seem likely to drop much through August. The hives get a lot of sun. The TBH is more shaded than the Lang.
2) Do not medicate, do another count in a few weeks?


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

All my packages started this year have mite counts high enough to treat.

Do not assume packages have low mite counts.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

70?
I am not an expert by any far stretch but the math is I think number of mites/hours sampled times 24=ave mites per day.....70/72*24=23
somewhere I saw 15-30 you want to think about treating. >30 is critical...

someone please verify.

BTW, I had been leaving my IPM board in all the time at first but it seemed way to hot for them and I also got a screened inner cover to elp ventilate.....





dixieswife said:


> Borrowing this thread for my question:
> 
> We just did a mite count today on our 1st year hive. We cleaned off the bottom board, waited three days and pulled it out. Went over it with a magnifying glass, plucked mites onto a tissue and counted. We had 70 mites.
> 
> ...


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The number of mites that signal a need for treatment differs from state to state. Here the recommended treatment numbers are an average of 50 to 150 per 24 hours. Check with your state apiary section to find out the number for your area.

The mite load a colony can carry varies from colony to colony. I have colonies that have an average of 30 to 50 and show no damage, and I have a few colonies that are carrying 120+ and show no damage. If you have only a few colonies and can't afford losses, I would suggest treating. As you gain colonies and experience you can determine what the numbers are for your particular apiary and line of bees.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

It's not necessarily the mites but the virus they vector. I have come to believe that in my area virus issues are significant and I treat each fall no matter the mite count. I treat in the spring depending on counts. I do not trust natural drops and base my treatments on alcohol washes which I believe are much more accurate as long as the bees come from the brood area, preferably open brood.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

The answer is, you should at least learn to test for mites you're first year.
& decide if you're going to treat, & what methods of treatment you're comfortable using on you're food.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

This artilcle is 5 years old: http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/444/444-103/444-103.html


AR Beekeeper said:


> The number of mites that signal a need for treatment differs from state to state. Here the recommended treatment numbers are an average of 50 to 150 per 24 hours. Check with your state apiary section to find out the number for your area.
> 
> The mite load a colony can carry varies from colony to colony. I have colonies that have an average of 30 to 50 and show no damage, and I have a few colonies that are carrying 120+ and show no damage. If you have only a few colonies and can't afford losses, I would suggest treating. As you gain colonies and experience you can determine what the numbers are for your particular apiary and line of bees.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Whatever you see from a mite drop, you can add 3x that amount to your number from those still in the brood!


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

i Did a mite drop and counted 44 mites in 67 hours.....this particular hive to me is distressed and the temps are around 90 so I can't treat.....I think I will loose my hive. activity has changed in the last week....


If I treat and the temp is 90 for another day will this be too hard on them???

i feel time is running out


snl said:


> Whatever you see from a mite drop, you can add 3x that amount to your number from those still in the brood!


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

So use OA vapor or amitraz if you want to save the hive. Treatment needs to be ASAP so the bees can raise healthy winter bees.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

I've used a half dose of Apiguard at higher temps for a quick knockdown. It might buy some time.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

Testing is OK for a few hives but when talking about 50 or 100 I guess nobody does test them all. It's insane.

In my point of view you either just treat according to the rules that are defined by people who took this matter seriously and tested a lot (by this time of the year I find that I have quite different numbers in my hives, some being heavily infested or not infested at all) or you decide to go treatment free and do nothing about it. Just that in this case you need quite a number of hives/nucs. 

I find testing useful after treatments in my case as I don't have SBB's.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

cristianNiculae said:


> Testing is OK for a few hives but when talking about 50 or 100 I guess nobody does test them all. It's insane.
> 
> In my point of view you either just treat according to the rules that are defined by people who took this matter seriously and tested a lot (by this time of the year I find that I have quite different numbers in my hives, some being heavily infested or not infested at all) or you decide to go treatment free and do nothing about it. Just that in this case you need quite a number of hives/nucs.
> 
> I find testing useful after treatments in my case as I don't have SBB's.


Since I started beekeeping this year I believe I have become temporarily insane or OCD this late summer.

The latest page in the saga with the mites or the new idea of mites and possibly my queen is tired and I should replace her is all getting to me a little...lol


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

cristianNiculae said:


> Testing is OK for a few hives but when talking about 50 or 100 I guess nobody does test them all. It's insane.


This is where math and sampling comes in. In other words test a random sample of hives in the yard and make your decision to treat based on that. Some programs - like Certified Naturally Grown - require every colony to be tested before a treatment is used.

There are options for treating in warmer weather.

Mite counts will follow mite population dynamics. If you are seeing brood in your hives then Varroa has the opportunity to reproduce. Keep in mind that the Varroa mite does not have a symbiotic relationship with the Western Honeybee. A high mite infestation rate will kill a colony. See scientificbeekeeping.com (Randy Oliver's site) for good information on mite biology, testing methods and treatment options.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

Andrew Dewey said:


> This is where math and sampling comes in. In other words test a random sample of hives in the yard and make your decision to treat based on that.
> ...


I decided to treat as I found these % (20, 5, 2, 1, 1, 0). I sampled as various as possible - powerful, weak, position in the apiary, hive with old queen, nucs with queens started this year(had a brood break). I guess I could have also postpone the treatments and wait for the brood break with the risk of having some of the colonies in a poor condition. I will probably go for this schema - one block of flash FA treatments at the begining/middle of August and another OA trickle in late Autumn.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

cristianNiculae said:


> I decided to treat as I found these % (20, 5, 2, 1, 1, 0). I sampled as various as possible - powerful, weak, position in the apiary, hive with old queen, nucs with queens started this year(had a brood break). I guess I could have also postpone the treatments and wait for the brood break with the risk of having some of the colonies in a poor condition. I will probably go for this schema - one block of flash FA treatments at the begining/middle of August and another OA trickle in late Autumn.


(as a new bee) I could be seeing a brood break right now with the green hive, as it did come with an older queen from a NUC this June, I have a significant mite population right now. The empiracal data I have says i have mites, i am seeing a diminished activity ( could be from brood break), or tired queen...but not acting is lame so today...I will apply a strip of mite away to both hives.....this coincides with the perfect storm of going out of town in a week.....when we come back either they would have superseded her or I'll re-queen.....what can I do...I wish I could start feeding as soon as the treatment period was over...they recommend a week to to futz with the hives....thanks everyone...


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

44 mites divided by 3 is a 14.66 mites per 24 hour count. I don't worry when #'s are that low.



vdotmatrix said:


> i Did a mite drop and counted 44 mites in 67 hours.....this particular hive to me is distressed and the temps are around 90 so I can't treat.....I think I will loose my hive. activity has changed in the last week....
> 
> 
> If I treat and the temp is 90 for anot
> ...


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

vdotmatrix said:


> If I treat and the temp is 90 for another day will this be too hard on them???


If you are treating with MAQS, I would say 90 is indeed too warm.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

cg3 said:


> If you are treating with MAQS, I would say 90 is indeed too warm.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/2zz2ulwcyyocvlz/DSC02431.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3w6j839qj2o6t41/DSC02430.jpg


I installed one formic acid strip between the brood boxes at 1430. I added some 1/2" square dowels above the screened inner cover and the telecoping cover for MAX ventilation for the next 72 hours. I read that excessive brood death and dentriment occurred from hives that were not ventilated adequately during this period. I am hoping this IS okay to do unless cautioned otherwise. THOUGHTS?????


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't like Maqs for temps that high, it is real hard on queens and brood. Apivar or the new hopgaurd II would of been a safer bet, or even Apigaurd. But, its already done now. Chances are they will probably be ok. Just check back on them in about 2 weeks you still have enough time in the year to fix any queen problems.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

johng said:


> I don't like Maqs for temps that high, it is real hard on queens and brood. Apivar or the new hopgaurd II would of been a safer bet, or even Apigaurd. But, its already done now. Chances are they will probably be ok. Just check back on them in about 2 weeks you still have enough time in the year to fix any queen problems.


 This is from Scientific Beekeeping: 
In general, mite treatments can be placed into one of three different categories:

*Short-acting: *one-shot hits which target only the phoretic (hitchhiking) mites (and miss the mites hiding in the brood). Examples would be oxalic acid, SucrocideTM, “mite wipes,” TakticTM in oil, the new HopguardTM, low-dose essential oils, and powdered sugar dusting. Mite levels often quickly rebound after treatment when more mites emerge from the brood, so it generally takes multiple treatments to actually bring mite levels down.

*Extended Release:* those products whose mode of action spans more than one mite reproductive cycle (~12 days), thus killing phoretic mites as they emerge from the safety of the brood cells. The release of the miticide is extended by formulating it into a plastic strip, or by mixing it into a carrier. ApistanTM, Checkmite+TM, HivastanTM, ApivarTM strips, or Taktic dissolved in shortening fall into this category. Unfortunately, the problem with the synthetic miticides is the issue of comb contamination due to their lipophilic property (they dissolve readily into beeswax) and stability; amitraz being the exception (amitraz and coumaphos may, however leave residues in honey).

*Fumigants:* those which evaporate at broodnest temperatures. These include essential oils, notably thymol, and formic acid. The problem with this mode of action is that it is temperature dependent (not too hot or too cool), are often disruptive to colony behavior, may cause the queen to cease egglaying temporarily, may kill some brood, and in the worst case may cause queen loss. However, these treatments have the great advantage in that they are composed of “natural” components, and evaporate or degrade relatively quickly, leaving few residues in the combs or honey.

*Mite Away Quick Strips™ (MAQS™)*

What the industry is crying for is a “dream” miticide that effectively kills most of the mites in a hive with a single treatment, and that is safe, legal, can be used over a wide range of temperatures, is unlikely to have resistance develop, will not contaminate combs or honey, and that can be used even when honey supers are on. That is quite a wish list! The amazing thing is that a new product soon will be on the market which appears to meet all those criteria!.

The product is called the MiteAway Quick Strip, developed by beekeeper David VanderDussen. My hat is off to David for sheer perseverance! He’s been working to bring beekeeper-friendly, single-application formic products to market for some 15 years, and deserves a big “thanks!” from our industry.

It’s been a long slog to come up with a formic product that is safe and easy to apply, yet would control the release of the volatile vapors. Dr. Medhat Nasr developed the first version of the fiberboard pad in a ziplock bag in 1996, and ARS researchers filed a patent for a silica gel pad in 1997, the same year that David brought the original Mite Away pad to market. But the breakthrough moment came when David hit upon using chemistry to develop a formate ester that would more slowly release the vapors, culminating in the improved Mite Away II pad in 2004.

*A New “Silver Bullet”?
*
The take home from this trial was that MAQS were a very effective “clean up” treatment for colonies with substantial mite infestations prior to winter. I will continue to monitor the hives until they go to almonds.

I gotta say, I’m pretty impressed by MAQS! They performed well in this trial despite there being a wide range of temperature. I did not sample brood to confirm mite kill (it was confirmed in previous trials), but if any mites had survived, they should have been evident at the end of the trial.

It looks like David’s claims are well founded—MAQS could be the Silver Bullet that we’ve been waiting for! We will soon have a treatment that you can pop in, even during a honey flow (treatment doesn’t affect the honey [7]), and then simply walk away (the strips are biodegradable, and the bees will eventually remove them; we found that they can also be easily flipped off the frames with a hive tool). I’ve heard from some Hawaiian beekeepers that the dosage may need to be adjusted in very hot weather, as the full treatment “knocked back” colonies, but that is the normal sort of trial and error process that beekeepers are used to with any new product.

The strips unfortunately don’t come cheap—David suspects that a pair will retail in the $4-$5 range. Those of you who are gasping for breath should keep in mind the great labor savings of such an effective treatment! (I figure that it costs me a buck per hive just in labor every time I apply a treatment). Commercial beekeepers may find MAQS especially handy for August treatment while the last honey supers are on. I suspect that one fall treatment in cold-winter areas would give you varroa control until spring, or a few months protection at other times of the year (and possibly some control of nosema as a side benefit [9]. Beekeepers who eschew synthetic chemicals could rotate MAQS with Apiguard, and perhaps an oxalic dribble, for a total cost of less than $6 per year to keep mites down! For those running mite-resistant stock, one treatment a year might (big caution here) do it.

There you have it. I would greatly appreciate feedback from commercial beekeepers anywhere on what is working, what is not, and tips and tricks for best application of any of the products.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Looks like 90F was about the highest temp seen in this trial. But that was 15 days in, it was about 75F at the start.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/an-early-summer-test-of-mite-away-quick-strips/


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## OLD KENTUCKY (Feb 18, 2021)

I have a question for anyone on here. If OAV treatment doesn't hurt the bees, why not just treat them about every three months, starting with the bloom of the red maple, checking the bottom board for the mite drop, and if it's high, continue to treat about ever 5 days until it comes down. My other question is, which is better to use, Apivar or HopGuard 3, prior to treating with OAV? Thanks, OLD KENTUCKY


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Splorndle said:


> I assume the answer is no because they have not had enough time to establish themselves?


YES treat!


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## rdimanin (Jan 17, 2020)

OLD KENTUCKY said:


> I have a question for anyone on here. If OAV treatment doesn't hurt the bees, why not just treat them about every three months, starting with the bloom of the red maple, checking the bottom board for the mite drop, and if it's high, continue to treat about ever 5 days until it comes down. My other question is, which is better to use, Apivar or HopGuard 3, prior to treating with OAV? Thanks, OLD KENTUCKY


Stay away from Apivar because resistance issues have been springing up all over. I won't use it anymore, lost way too many colonies last winter. Some folks have been doubling the number of Apivar strips to get acceptable mite kill but that contributes to more resistance... i've been using Hopguard for several years & Hopguard 3 is the best so far. Hopguard 2 stunk like hell & no woman would get in the same car with me if I had any of it on my clothes. Hpoguard 3 is easy to use & doesn't injure the brood or anything else that I could see.


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

I would use Formic Acid. I never used dusting sugar so, I wouldn't know. Strips, I used to use them, but found them to be ineffective on the drop sheet on the bottom board. When I use formic acid on the same hive, within days, the hives would be defn cleaned out of mites. My own opinion


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## BenjaminM (Mar 10, 2020)

If you don't do a mite wash, you don't know what your mite count actually is.

If you do do a mite wash, set the hive back on the front end.

Personally I'd give them a couple of days to establish themselves, and then before you have capped brood, I'd treat.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Seven year old post. Resist replying! J


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