# Did I kill my Queen? NNOOOOO!



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I think you know the answer to this already.

Most queen marking tubes have soft foam inserts to keep from crushing the queen. Nonetheless, you only need to push the plunger up far enough to immobilize her, not to flatten her. 

FWIW, I have just started this year marking my queens. Always been afraid of fat fingers and poor motor control.


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## JUGGERNAUT (Aug 26, 2019)

Ugh! Judging by your answer shes dead. I even put softer foam on the plunger to prevent this. I may have to start practicing on hand picking drones then move to a queen. Next year. Isn't it a little late in the season for a supercedure? what are the odd this hive will make it through the winter?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

It is late. MB would be better suited to tell you what is possible there in Omaha. I am trying a few late season queens just for practice. I have no intention of making a new split with them, but maybe replace a poor performing queen or two so that brood production is uninterrupted. If you still have drones it could happen, but by the time a new queen is laying, it will be October. I would put the odds at less than 50/50 the hive survives by trying to make a new queen. Order a new one on tuesday after you do an inspection and see queen cells started by monday. Who knows, you may see eggs, but that is really unlikely.


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## JUGGERNAUT (Aug 26, 2019)

Dang it! I pm'd him. Im feelin pretty gun shy about opening em up that early. I really liked this queen and her genetics. Hardly any SHB, Not aggressive, great build up and best honey stores. how do you mark your queens? use a tube and plunger or by hand?


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## JUGGERNAUT (Aug 26, 2019)

Ido have a small nuc that has a queen. i dont think theyll make the winter. You think I could put her in there?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Personally, I use the one handed queen catcher from Mann Lake. I am not good enough to catch them by hand yet. I can mark my newly emerged virgins by hand though as they are easy to handle fresh out of the incubator.

Combining a nuc with a hive when you lose a queen late in the season is one of the primary reasons to have nucs. I would absolutely wait until you see queen cells to verify the queen did not survive. No point in combining until you know for sure. Give them until Monday and if you see qc's, tear them all down and combine the nuc with the hive using a sheet of newspaper between the two. You can make a transition board out of a piece of plywood cut to fit the outside of the hive with a hole in it cut to the inside dimensions of the nuc. You can see these in bee supply catalogs but they are super simple to make.

Let us know how the hive looks on Monday. These things happen. When my State inspector checked my hives earlier this year, we accidentally alcohol washed the queen in one of my hives. Oops.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If they start cells, do as JWP says and tear them down. Be prepared to have to tear them down _twice_ though, since viable full function queens can be made up to 5 days from the last egg laid, and partial _caste_ queen for a bit longer. This is not the usual case but I have been bitten by it and lost a valuable queen.

I am presently waiting out that exact scenario not knowing whether I rushed the process a week ago. I found a few more started cells about the time the introduced queen should have gotten out of the cage. She may have been accepted or they might be queenless.

About that oops! I have a strong suspicion I had that happen too! Cells 3 days after the inspector left!


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## JUGGERNAUT (Aug 26, 2019)

Thanks guys for the info. Puts me a little more at ease about losing my star queen. The nuc has a queen form a lesser hive in comparison to the three. Not as aggressive as my other one but not the hard worker as my dead queen. ugh i didnt think queens were so fragile.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Occasionally when I mark a queen, she faints. Had one this summer. She flew off the comb when I tried to catch her...flew right into my hand. She immediately fainted. Thought she was dead, but as you say...pulsing. I put her in a cage and in the shade under my marking table. Took her a half hour to recover. Added some attendants. An hour later all was well. I used that queen in a new nuc. Queen is doing well. 

Next time you have a fainter, place her in a cage, add a few attendants, and place the cage in the shade. Most of them will recover.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Search the archives for fainting queen.It's pretty common.
I had it happen twice this year after marking.
Check for the queen again or for eggs after 4 days.
I bet she's fine.Queens are tough.


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## Ryan Williamson (Feb 28, 2012)

Yes fainting queens happen to me every year and it is so disconcerting. This year for the first time i did have one not recover from the faint...as in I killed her. I know she was not squished and was only out of the hive in the shade for a few minutes but she up and died after the marking. So strange.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Fainting:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/search.php?searchid=13393701


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I have had two queens balled immediately after painting, but I have not had one faint on me yet. Not looking forward to that anxiety.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

JUGGERNAUT said:


> I didnt squeeze her hard but when I pulled the plunger down she wasn't moving. Her thorax was pulsing *and it looked like eggs were coming out it.*


This is the part that made me think it was not fainting. Never had one faint on me, but I am aware of the phenomenon. This sounds like she was crushed.


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## JUGGERNAUT (Aug 26, 2019)

Wow guys. I am so grateful for all the info. Really putting me at ease... For now untill monday when i go check for eggs. lol. I definitely did not crush her. If i woulda saw yellow then i knew i would have crushed her. like i said she was pulsing and if she would have been crushed her abdomen wall would have been comprimised and unable to pulse. Im pretty good at paying attention to detail. USAF taught me that.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I am certainly keeping my fingers crossed for you and hoping for the best. One of the reasons I was adamant about waiting to combine the nuc with the hive. You will know one way or the other in three days.


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## JUGGERNAUT (Aug 26, 2019)

JWPalmer said:


> I am certainly keeping my fingers crossed for you and hoping for the best. One of the reasons I was adamant about waiting to combine the nuc with the hive. You will know one way or the other in three days.


I agree. I still have time to combine if I need to. Patients is what I need right now. Just as your Sig says JW. Thank you sir.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Pins and needles here. What did you find out?


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## JUGGERNAUT (Aug 26, 2019)

I didnt get time to check today but i did check them yesterday and there were eggs. I didnt see them starting queen cells though. does that mean anything? Does a day early make a difference?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Unfortunately, a day does make a difference. It takes 3.5 days for a freshly laid egg to hatch. So by looking on day 3, there could still be unhatched eggs from a now deceased queen. However, if you saw a whole bunch of eggs, especially if they where standing up, it would be a sign the queen was alive and laying. 

I had hastily made a nuc in a downpour on the19th. I was not sure where the queen was, so checked it on the 21st, two days later. There were still plenty of eggs in the donor frame and no queen cells started, thought for sure the queen was in the nuc by mistake. Four days later I had capped queen cells and all was good.


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## JUGGERNAUT (Aug 26, 2019)

Ok. I had thought it was 3 day not 3.5 so i can see where that would make a difference. I will check them tomorrow after work. Unfortunatly thats 5pm for me but this hive is always really nice so hopefully they don't change into gremlins after 2pm. lol. I will make a post on what I find after that.


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## JUGGERNAUT (Aug 26, 2019)

I HAVE EGGS!


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Woohoo! This is one case where me being wrong is good! Sorry to cause you needless worry.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Great news!


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## Honeybeenut (Apr 16, 2017)

A couple of weeks ago I marked a Queen and when I went to release her I tapped the marking cage about two times and smashed her. I threw a mad fit and came back to the hive and pushed her off the frame into the hive and closed it up. 
Made plans to take a couple Queen cells out of another hive the next day. Did that and waited a week to see if they emerged and there were eggs all over the place. I said now wait a minute how is this possible. After a while it dawned on me that the Queen survived and sure enough there was a Queen with a green mark. Unbelievable. So I marked the lid of that hive Queen Smash to tract her performance till spring/summer 2020. Taught me a lesson never throw a Queen in the grass because you thought you killed it.


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## JUGGERNAUT (Aug 26, 2019)

Yes for sure! this was one of the biggest things I've learned about queens in a long time, and all thanks to the experience of the great people on this forum. Thank you guys!


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

JUGGERNAUT said:


> Ugh! Judging by your answer shes dead. I even put softer foam on the plunger to prevent this. I may have to start practicing on hand picking drones then move to a queen. Next year. Isn't it a little late in the season for a supercedure? what are the odd this hive will make it through the winter?


Yup, when I got my queen marking thingy, I practice every year on drones first. Sorry for your loss, I know how frustrating it can be. I've been lucky so far. I'm usually so nervous when I attempt to catch one of my queens, I keep missing her, so none of my 4 queens are marked, but I always have the tools handy, just in case.


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## JUGGERNAUT (Aug 26, 2019)

Hogback Honey said:


> Yup, when I got my queen marking thingy, I practice every year on drones first. Sorry for your loss, I know how frustrating it can be. I've been lucky so far. I'm usually so nervous when I attempt to catch one of my queens, I keep missing her, so none of my 4 queens are marked, but I always have the tools handy, just in case.


Oh no shes got to be alive, I checked for eggs 4 days later and there were eggs. So she must have fainted. I to will be practicing on drones for the rest of the year and next year.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

Congratulations Juggernaut!!!


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

I just had this happen for the 1st time tonight when marking queens. I watched her working the comb and laying eggs for a while before I snatched her up. She could not have cared less about being watched and in about week since mating already has a good amount laid. She's a winner!

After marking she went dead still and I was quite mad at myself. Then I saw a small but of pulsating in her abdomen. I put her on a frame and the attendants came up then took her down. I left them be and went about inspecting the nearby hives, then went back.

I pulled the frame I saw them take her down on. She was alert and slowly moving. She seemed more upset about being painted than anything. Attendants were cleaning her off as best they could.

I remembered a fainting queen thread so I looked when I got in. Sure enough, same as most describe. *Don't give up on a queen you think you killed when marking.*


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Jugger, Here is a tip from one who has killed a few queens myself.
do not practice on the best queen you have.
Do not respond to impulses on the best queen you have, either.

mark 50 or so drones, THEN mark the 3 or 4 worse queens you have and see 2 weeks later if they are still laying.
THen when you are feeling like you know the drill and the queens seem unaffected, try the better queens.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

good turn out, but hopefully lesson learned.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I mark using this cage with good results; no issues yet; also use it as a short-term queen cage (bees get in and out easily):
https://www.kelleybees.com/queen-marking-disc-push-in-cage.html
It used to be cheaper though, pretty sure.


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## jigsaw (Jun 10, 2019)

GregV said:


> I mark using this cage with good results; no issues yet; also use it as a short-term queen cage (bees get in and out easily):
> https://www.kelleybees.com/queen-marking-disc-push-in-cage.html
> It used to be cheaper though, pretty sure.


I like that design. A bit pricey though. I might try it anyway, why stop spending now..


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