# Sour Dough Bread



## BeeBop

Thanks for sharing that Arnie!
80% hydration is definitely a moist dough. The interior on that loaf is just beautiful. :thumbsup:

Perhaps next weekend I'll whip out my sourdough starter and give that recipe a try.


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## BeeBop

Arnie said:


> This particular recipe, *and a variation I also make*, is a very very wet dough.


OK, inquiring minds want to know... so what's the variation on this that you make?


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## Arnie

Leave out the rye flour, use all white flour. Shape the dough into half baguettes and retard them overnight. Score them and put them straight into the hot oven. Nice! Practically all crispy crackly crust.


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## jim lyon

Thanks for that Arnie, great instructional. I'd love to try it however with that several month prep on the culture it's going to take planning ahead.


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## Dave Burrup

We have a culture that we have kept going continuously for close to 40 years. We do not make bread with it often, but the pancakes and waffles are terrific. We use rye and or whole wheat flout in it too.


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## Arnie

No worries, Jim.
PM me, I'll send you some sourdough culture. You'll be up and running in a week.


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## BeeBop

Thanks Arnie! I'll try your first recipe next week. If it goes well I'll probably add some whole wheat flour as my "variation". I like a good percentage of whole wheat in a lot of my breads and buy bulk wheat berries and mill them myself.


Jim, you know you don't HAVE to start your own. I got my starter from Carl Griffith (well, friends of Carl actually) and it has served me well for almost 5 years now. I use it about twice a month for something.

Send these folks a SASE and they'll set you up. I received mine less than 2 weeks after I mailed the SASE. I slipped a couple of dollars in the envelope also, just because.
http://carlsfriends.net/

Heh, Never mind Jim, I see Arnie offered to send you some while I was typing. :thumbsup:


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## Arnie

You're hard core BeeBop. I had one of those hand grinders years ago, too much work!

You ever make Essene bread? Sprout the wheat and grind it in your mill.....messy!..... then shape it and bake. Add nuts, raisins and such. Super moist and supposed to be nutritious. No flour, no leavening. Just sprouted wheat berries.


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## BeeBop

Aw heck no, I'm not THAT hardcore. 
When I said "mill them myself" I didn't mean with my own muscle power. I just dump 'em in the Nutrimill and let electricity do the job for me. 

Bread from fresh milled whole berries is quite different from store bought whole wheat flour. I really like it. 
And the whole berries keep for years. Store bought whole wheat flour always goes rancid on me in a few months unless I keep it in the freezer so I can't really stock up on large quantities.

Never tried the Essene bread. Google search on the way...


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## Arnie

The little baguettes. I didn't retard these because I was in a hurry. Even so, they have a pretty nice interior. The crust is what makes these. Use lots of steam. You can see my shaping and scoring needs work.


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## BeeBop

OK... this morning I pulled my sourdough starter out of the fridge and fed it. 
This evening I mixed up the first stage of Arnies bread recipe. White bread flour, rye flour, water, and sourdough starter. I don't have any of Bob's Red Mill rye flour so I milled a dose of whole rye berries which is what I use in most of my recipes that call for rye flour. 

It's now doing the overnight rest in my proofing box at 68 degrees F. (proofing box = cheap plastic tote bin with a homemade temperature controlled heater)

I've got all of tomorrows ingredients weighed out, found my long lost pizza stone, and have my spray bottle full of water and ready for spritzen'.
Tomorrow I'll add the rest of the ingredients and get myself psyched up for the "stretch & fold" routine on some very wet dough. Oil those hands and use plenty of flour on the work surface is how I envision that procedure. 
My loaf shaping skills are really horrible so it'll probably end up looking more like a turd then a French loaf but I'll do the best I can. I'll try to take some photos if it's not too embarrassing.

To be continued...


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## Arnie

Hey BeeBop,
A shaping tip:

You'll notice after all the folding this dough gains a little strength. After the fermentation is finished I dump the dough onto a floured surface WITHOUT degassing and gently push and prod it into a rough rectangle. cut it lengthwise with your bench knife, then grab the ends and stretch it into a loaf shape and place it onto your parchment paper or couche all in one motion. With a little practice you get the hang of it. 

If you can, get a cast iron skillet and place that on the bottom shelf of your oven. After you load the bread onto the stone pour a couple cups of boiling water into the heated skillet. Wear your bee gloves!! The steam will get you. You'll be amazed at the crust you get.


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## BeeBop

Thanks Arnie!
Gonna have some breakfast and start on it in about an hour.


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## Dave Burrup

You guys are driving my taste buds and stomach crazy. We are going to have to make some homemade clam chowder and some sour dough bread real soon.


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## Michael Bush

Ideally you find someone with a sourdough starter you know you like (because you've eaten their bread) and go from there, but if you don't have that available, I have had really good luck making sourdough starter from scratch by putting a bit of sugar and flour and water enough to make a runny pancake like batter, and adding juniper berries to this and after it's foaming nicely remove the berries and add more flour. The "bloom" on the juniper berries is a nice wild yeast that works well. What NEVER worked well for me was using bread yeast for starter. It works for the first batch of bread and then it gets bitter on subsequent batches of bread.


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## BeeBop

Well, I think this is a very good recipe. I'll make it again. 

The flavor is very good. The sourdough and rye work together nicely. The crust was crispy and chewy, and the interior was nice and soft but not nearly as open as Arnies.

The sourdough culture performed it's magic well and fluffed up the goods nicely overnight and during the day rests. I was cautious not to de-gas the dough any more than necessary when handling and it was nice and "buoyant" when I went to shape it into loaves. And then I mangled it... :facepalm:

It's a very wet dough and in spite of oiled hands and well floured everything, it wanted to stick to ... everything. I managed to handle it pretty well until it was time to cut it in half for the shaping. In spite of having a well oiled cutter, it stuck to the cutter.
I tried to gently work it free from the cutter with some well oiled fingers and it stuck to the fingers. By the time I got it worked loose from cutter & fingers it had sat on the well floured work surface too long and stuck down. By the time I got it all loose and "shaped" and transferred to a piece of parchment it was pretty de-gassed and rather lumpy and irregular shaped.

When the loaves were doing their final rise they spread horizontally a lot and touched each other and stuck together. I didn't try to separate them until they were baked.

The loaves came out of the oven just ugly as hell, but they taste great. 

I think next time I'll use a banneton to help support the wet dough instead of letting it rise on a flat surface, 
I'll try and use more flour and more oil (if that's possible) on all surfaces to help prevent sticking and try to work faster. The longer it is in contact with anything the more it wants to stick.

Anyway, it tastes great and I'll try it again sometime. Thanks Arnie!


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## Arnie

Michael Bush,
I have also 'stalked the wild yeast', using cedar berries, wild rose hips, wild plums,,,,, they all help jump start the levain. Good stuff!

BeeBop,
That looks great! This particular bread is not for the faint of heart, but with a little practice it becomes much easier to play with; and it is worth a little effort.
It's basically a ciabatta that is transformed by the folding into more of a loaf than a blob. Good job.

Here's another. This is from Dan Leader's book Bread Alone. It's a basic sour dough bread but with the addition of walnuts. Changes the bread completely. It comes out dark, richly flavored and a little more dense. It's a great bread for winter, makes fabulous sandwiches.

Pain au Levain with Walnuts.

Feed the starter about 12 hours before making the levain starter.

For the levain starter:
Mix 12 ounces liquid sour dough starter
6 ounces bread flour.
Let this ferment overnight.

Next day mix:

18 fluid ounces water
27 ounces flour, or a little more if the dough is too slack.
Add the levain, all 18 ounces.

Mix until it is just combined and then let it rest for 30 minutes. This rest is called 'autolyse' and it helps develop the gluten in the dough.

After the 30 minutes add:
1 tablespoon salt 
7 ounces toasted, finely chopped walnuts.

Knead the dough until it starts to pull away from the mixer sides and the dough begins to strengthen. Give it a good mix; you want a strong dough to hold up to the weight of the nuts.

Let the dough rise until it had almost doubled. Fold the dough twice at 30 minute intervals during the ferment.

Shape the dough into rounds or use large loaf pans to proof. Proof until nearly doubled and bake with steam at 460 degrees for 20 minutes and 375 for 10 minutes more.


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## BeeBop

Ahh, now the Pain au Levain w/ walnuts sounds a little closer to the sort of thing I often make.
Dough hydration in the mid 60ish%, an overnight rest with the sourdough starter, water, and about 1/3 to 1/2 the flour. Maybe some kind of nuts and/or seeds. 
I like whole wheat breads so I quite often use 25 - 75% fresh milled whole wheat flour and I usually make "sandwich loaves" in rectangular loaf pans because I'm lazy and loaf pans are easy.


I need to make English Muffins soon if I can find my recipe. I just love fresh sourdough English Muffins and it's been well over a year since I made them.

English Muffins rising on a cookie sheet.










Cooking 'em on Frankengriddle.










Ready for some butter, jam, or honey. Or maybe a ham & cheese sandwich..










I just love sourdough.


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## Arnie

Those are beautiful English muffins. Well done.

You can adjust the hydration of that original sour dough recipe to about 70%. Make it the same way. By pre-fermenting half the flour the flavor and character of the bread is improved a lot. 
You could also add in a cold ferment and retard the shaped loaves. If you do that and are careful not to lose the volume of the long rise the bread will come out nice and light with lots of random sized holes. 
One of the good things about folding the dough is it develops the gliadin (one of the types of gluten) in the dough and makes it more extensible,,,, stretchy..... That helps the surface of the dough stretch during the 'oven spring' time of the bake, and keeps the larger bubbles from collapsing. 

The amazing thing about a good sour dough bread is the amount of flavor you can coax out of three simple ingredients. Flour, water, salt. With a little practice those 3 things become special. A baguette with a crispy crust that shatters when you bite into it and a creamy delicate crumb with the tangy earthiness of the levain............it's astonishing! Sublime. And all that from 3 of the most basic ingredients. True magic.


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## No-sage

I made my first foray into sourdough last month. I began my starter Thanksgiving week and baked my first loafs with it last week. I'm not much of a baker, I'm more of a chef around the house, but I liked getting this project going.


View attachment 22207


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## BeeBop

That's beautiful!

Have you got a recipe for it you can share?


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## No-sage

I do. I used this video for instructions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfWcs2k7oQ4

275g warm water
500g starter
Mix together
Add:
400g bread flour
100g whole wheat flour
Mix and let stand 30 min
Add 20g salt
Knead 10 min, let rest 10 min
Stretch and fold, rest 10 min (x3)
Form ball and let rise 3-4 hours
Remove from bowl, stretch and fold once more
Tension the dough while forming ball
Let rise in bowl seam side up 2-3 hours
Bake in covered Dutch oven at 500 deg for 20 min
Lower temp to 425-450 and bake uncovered for another 30 min

It was easy, and delicious.


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## DPBsbees

BeeBop said:


> That's beautiful!
> 
> Have you got a recipe for it you can share?


Me too. Looks great. A recipe would be nice.


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## Knisely

Bookmarking this one for the future.


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## Arnie

Beautiful, No-sage. Yours is much better looking than the loaf in the video. Nice work!


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## BeeBop

No-sage said:


> I do. I used this video for instructions.
> Bake in covered Dutch oven at 500 deg for 20 min\.



Ahh, a Dutch oven recipe. That's good. 
I need to practice my Dutch oven recipes but using a charcoal or wood fire instead of in the oven.


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## woodsy

I like those sourdough cowboy biscuits dipped in bacon fat and baked. 

Here is one version of them, other versions use more starter.

http://fromthefamilytable.com/2012/03/14/west-texas-cowboy-sourdough-biscuits/

Got my 1st starter almost 7 years ago and have kept it going using it at least every
other week . The strain originated in Alaska but has morphed into a northeast starter.
Hard to eat that store bought bread anymore.
Sourdough bread is the king. 

My version is pretty simple.

For 2 loaves

1/2 cup starter
1/4 cup molasses or HONEY
2 1/2 -3 cups warm water
Add bread flour till it forms a ball; rest 20-30 mins. 
You can add a cup of oatmeal, WW flour or other nuts that you like but the bread flour alone 
gives the best rise
Knead 5-10 mins adding in the 2 tsps of salt at the start. 
Let rise until near doubled then overnight it in the fridge for tangier, more fermented bread taste. 
Following day warm it , punch down, divide into 2 pans until risen to your satisfaction and bake @ 350 for 35 mins.

We also do pizza dough and pancakes with the starter and french toast are the best.


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## jim lyon

Arnie said:


> No worries, Jim.
> PM me, I'll send you some sourdough culture. You'll be up and running in a week.


A big shout out to Arnie, got your starter and got it fed. Thanks! Gonna be sourdough bread here for Christmas. Or maybe Barry's German sweet bread.......or maybe both.


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## Arnie

Jim, I vote 'both'!

As long as we're on the subject of sour dough here's another one from Jeffrey Hamelman's book Bread. Great book!
This bread recipe is more normal than mine. As much as I like wet sticky bread dough and the moist, open-crumbed results, the fact is traditional bread dough is more like this recipe. This still has a crisp crust and light crumb, and fantastic flavor. It just doesn't have quite the large holes inside. And it's much easier to work with. This is great bread.

And BeeBop, use whole wheat instead of the rye and the flavor is more sweet/nutty. You'll like it!

Vermont Sourdough

First day, feed the starter.

In the evening mix together:

4.8 ounces (one cup) bread flour
6 ounces (3/4 cup) water
2 ounces (about 4 tablespoons) liquid starter.

Let that rest over night.

Next morning mix:

1 lb 8 ounces (5 1/2 cups) bread flour
3.2 ounce (7/8 cup) whole rye flour
14.8 ounces (1 7/8 cup) water 
All the starter

Mix this until it is just combined and let it rest for 30 minutes.

After 30 minutes add
1 tablespoon salt.

Knead the dough for 6 minutes or so on medium speed. 
You will see how the dough comes together and starts to become smooth with a light sheen to it.

Let the dough rest for 30 minutes and give it a couple folds.

Fold again after 30 more minutes. 

After the second fold the dough will have gained some strength and be able to hold its shape. If not, fold it one more time after 30 minutes.

Let the dough ferment until it is almost doubled. About 2 1/2 hours. A long cool ferment will enhance the flavor.

Without deflating the dough turn it out onto your work surface and cut it and pre-shape it into an oval for a batard or a round shape.
Let it rest 20 minutes.
After 20 minutes, gently give it a final shape and proof it, covered, until it has risen. A word here about proofing: I have ruined more bread during the proofing stage than any other way. Over proofed bread will be flat and pale. Under proofed will be too dense. It takes a little practice to get the correct proof on a bread. Properly proofed bread will have a taut surface and you can see the air bubbles under the skin. It will feel like it has life underneath when you press your fingertip into it. It'll feel almost spongy. 

Score the loaves and bake at 460 degrees with steam for about 30 to 35 minutes.

The loaves can be retarded after they are shaped for 8 hours or so. This will increase the sour tang.


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## Dave Burrup

arnie do you see much change in flavor and activity in your start as the seasons change? Mine has a tangier more sour taste during the summer, and ferments slower. During the winter it is quite different.


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## Arnie

Dave, I keep mine in the fridge most of the time so it is relatively stable. It's possible that in the summer yours is getting overripe and that is why it tastes more sour and ferments slower. The balance of yeast, lactic and acetic acid bacteria sometimes gets well,,,, unbalanced. You just need to feed it and watch it. If you have a stiff sour dough and it is domed then it is mature. When it collapses it is overripe.
If it's a liquid culture you will see a high water mark that shows it is in need of refreshing. The activity peaks and then recedes.

The sour dough culture is a little bit like the bees , it's alive and you learn to see the signs that it may need a bit of attention to get the best results. Part science, part alchemy.


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## Dave Burrup

It is refrigerated between feedings. This start is at least 40 years old. I have been married 35 years and I had it going years before that.


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## Arnie

Usually the bacteria that gives it the sour taste is more dominant in cooler temps. The yeast slows down in the cold.
It changes with the locale. If I get a culture from some place it will eventually start to taste the same and act the same as my local culture.

Good on ya for keeping it going for 40 years. Mine is 15 and I have nearly killed it a few times.


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## deknow

Sandor Katz (I think in Wild Fermentation) documents that west coast starter brought east quickly turned over into the local strain. As much as I like the concept of old starters, I think what you have is always a reflection of what is local.


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## Dave Burrup

I am with you on it changing with the locale. I have bought San Francisco starts a couple of times. Within a month or two they taste and act just like mine.


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## BeeBop

I got my sourdough starter from Friends of Carl on 4/16/2011 and it changed quite a bit over the first year or so but seems pretty stable since then. I think it's true that they all become "local" eventually.
I do keep mine in the fridge.


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## Arnie

Sour Dough Rye anyone?

Could anybody with the name Arnie NOT have a love of, and recipe for, a 'nice rye bread' as my family would say?

So, the evening before you bake your bread, mix together:

1/2 cup liquid starter,
1/2 cup rye flour, ...I use whole rye flour.
1/4 cup water.
Let that rise overnight.

Next morning:

Add 1 1/2 cup warm water,
3/4 cup rye flour,
2 1/2 to 3 cups bread flour, ( be careful not to mix this too dry. Rye bread dough should feel tacky to the touch.)

Mix until the flour is wet. Let it rest 25 minutes. Then:

Add 2 tablespoons caraway seeds,
1/2 tablespoon salt.
Knead this until it starts to get some strength.

Ferment this a couple hours or so with two folds at about 30 minutes apart.

When this is properly fermented shape it into a round or oblong loaf and let it proof. Keep an eye on this; rye bread sometimes proofs really quickly. I have over-proofed this one a few times when I have gotten distracted.

Slash it and bake it at 460 degrees for 20 minutes and 375 for 10 more.... with steam. 

Optional cornstarch glaze for the shiny crust:
1 1/2 teaspoons cornstarch,
6 tablespoons water.

mix the cornstarch with 2 tablespoons water. Boil the remaining water and whisk in the cornstarch slurry. Let it come to a boil so it is clear.

Brush this onto the bread before and right after baking.


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## BeeBop

I almost tried Arnies sourdough rye recipe this weekend, but I made the mistake of mentioning English muffins to the wife and she wanted those so I made the sourdough muffins. 
Maybe next week for the rye bread.


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## jim lyon

Arnie said:


> Sour Dough Rye anyone?
> 
> Could anybody with the name Arnie NOT have a love of, and recipe for, a 'nice rye bread' as my family would say?
> 
> So, the evening before you bake your bread, mix together:
> 
> 1/2 cup liquid starter,
> 1/2 cup rye flour, ...I use whole rye flour.
> 1/4 cup water.
> Let that rise overnight.
> 
> Next morning:
> 
> Add 1 1/2 cup warm water,
> 3/4 cup rye flour,
> 2 1/2 to 3 cups bread flour, ( be careful not to mix this too dry. Rye bread dough should feel tacky to the touch.)
> 
> Mix until the flour is wet. Let it rest 25 minutes. Then:
> 
> Add 2 tablespoons caraway seeds,
> 1/2 tablespoon salt.
> Knead this until it starts to get some strength.
> 
> Ferment this a couple hours or so with two folds at about 30 minutes apart.
> 
> When this is properly fermented shape it into a round or oblong loaf and let it proof. Keep an eye on this; rye bread sometimes proofs really quickly. I have over-proofed this one a few times when I have gotten distracted.
> 
> Slash it and bake it at 460 degrees for 20 minutes and 375 for 10 more.... with steam.
> 
> Optional cornstarch glaze for the shiny crust:
> 1 1/2 teaspoons cornstarch,
> 6 tablespoons water.
> 
> mix the cornstarch with 2 tablespoons water. Boil the remaining water and whisk in the cornstarch slurry. Let it come to a boil so it is clear.
> 
> Brush this onto the bread before and right after baking.


Got done with a somewhat altered variation of Arnies recipe, with the starter he so generously sent to me. Wanted to use my cloche so I ended up forming 2/3rds of it into a ball and giving a final 2 hour rise in the cloche before baking 25 minutes at 425, removing the lid and brushing on some egg white then another 10 minutes at 375 without the lid. Then doing the french loaf for about 20 minutes in the same 375 degree oven with a pan of water below. 
Turned out pretty good, flavor was excellent but I didnt get quite the airiness in the bread I had hoped for. The french bread had a nice crunchiness in the crust, the round cloche not so much despite wetting the inside pretty thoroughly. Next time I'll put the pan of water in the oven when I remove the lid for the final browning. 
http://s470.photobucket.com/user/jimlyon/media/Bread baking/1450739162_zpsjaevimuu.jpg.html


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## Arnie

Shout out to Jim Lyon. Got a jar of honey in the mail in exchange for the sour dough I sent. Great stuff! Thanks Jim!


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## jim lyon

And it's even better on sourdough bread.


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