# Honest question about ethics



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Sounds not quite kosher to me. I suppose if "they" give you permission and you note it on "your" label, that would be on the up n up. You know, something like:

*THEIR HONEY*
- Bottled and Distributed by Moon n Co. -​


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## JonD (Jul 14, 2012)

That is the definition of buying wholesale. You are far from the only person that buys bulk honey to resell. Many honey marketers do not produce any honey at all. 

The fastest way to lose a customer is to turn them away because you have nothing to sell them.

As long as you are not specifically labeling the honey as coming from your hives, you are not deceiving anybody.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

JonD said:


> As long as you are not specifically labeling the honey as coming from your hives, you are not deceiving anybody.


UNLESS you are letting the buyer believe that is YOUR honey from your LOCAL apiary....just my opinion.

Beekeepers are better than that.........


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The vast majority of food products sold are sold in just such a way. It really makes no difference whether it came from your bees or the guy down the road. What you have to remember, though, is that you are responsible to your customers for the quality of the product that you are putting your label on. If you are confident in the integrity of the product he is selling you then as JonD says it is much better than losing a customer.


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## stripstrike (Aug 29, 2009)

I expanded nearly fivefold this year and can't meet demand. My primary landowner is itching to market "his" honey but understands that I'm buying bulk and selling him that in the meantime. His yards have 24 of my colonies but they were all packages so any major surplus is unlikely this year. My take is as long as you're honest and don't specifically tell someone it's your honey you're okay, it wouldn't hurt if your label reflected the true source IMHO.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> ...It really makes no difference whether it came from your bees or the guy down the road. ... If you are confident in the integrity of the product he is selling you then as JonD says it is much better than losing a customer.


It makes a difference if the person thinks they are "buying local." I sell used furniture, upper scale. We do get in some junk from time to time, and there is always a market for that. But if someone is looking at an item and they think it is really good quality and it ISN'T - I tell them. I want that customer to know I am in business for the long haul, not the immediate sale.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The fact that you are asking the questions you are asking in the way you are asking them hints at an uneasy mind. Which usually means you think you are doing something wrong. So, clearly you are, since you think you are.

Does your label indicate the source of the honey sold under your label? If it doesn't then it isn't misleading. People make assumptions all the time. Answer any questions honestly.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Who says he need be dishonest about where it came from, he has every right to market under his label whatever honey he chooses to market.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I think he's been straight with his customers too, telling them it's not his honey up front. The only possible issue is someone buying the honey to try to treat local allergies or something and Moon telling them it's local honey. If it's blended at a reasonable rate, I wouldn't see a problem with that either, as it has a percentage of local honey in it.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

JRG13;827380 The only possible issue is someone buying the honey to try to treat local allergies or something and Moon telling them it's local honey. If it's blended at a reasonable rate said:


> So a little lie to your customer is ok?


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## JonD (Jul 14, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> I think he's been straight with his customers too, telling them it's not his honey up front. The only possible issue is someone buying the honey to try to treat local allergies or something and Moon telling them it's local honey. If it's blended at a reasonable rate, I wouldn't see a problem with that either, as it has a percentage of local honey in it.


Instead of bending the truth, I think this could be a good marketing opportunity. Keep a portion of your own honey separate, and sell it at an elevated price as 100% local.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

There is no reason he has to do any degree of lying. Just be a salesman and say that "x % is mine and x% is from an excellent source of honey that a friend of mine raises a couple of hours away from here. I think the blend is some of the best I have ever tasted and I think you will agree."


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

You need to decide if you are a beekeeper or a packer. What does your label say? Are you advertising as a beekeeper? Are you testing the honey you buy? Do you know it is not rebarreled rice syrup?

Crazy Roland


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Regardless of any signs, mixtures, labels, inuendos.............it all should boil down to.....

Do unto others as you would have them do to unto you................


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Roland said:


> You need to decide if you are a beekeeper or a packer. What does your label say? Are you advertising as a beekeeper? Are you testing the honey you buy? Do you know it is not rebarreled rice syrup?
> 
> Crazy Roland


I know for a fact all of this honey is produced either on corn fields from the southern end of the state, or Alfalfa and Clover all over the northern end of the state. I know the family and the producer of the honey personally, it's not some guy I happen to come across who offered me a _sweet_ deal on honey. They produce a very high quality product and it fetches a very high price. (Personally I feel my customers are getting an awesome deal) The family itself is a big honey producer, they only sell in bulk. I think a 1 gal pail is about the smallest quantity they sell and they typically only sell it locally to people who know them in the town they're from. Otherwise it's all sold out in drums.

As far as beekeeper or honey packer I don't know. I figure the only way to know is to try my hand at the various aspects of beekeeping and see which ones suit me best. I truly enjoy keeping bees. I increased my hive count by eight fold this year because last year I didn't get to spend enough time beekeeping. Again, this year I'm frustrated that it really only takes me a few hours to go through both apiaries and so next year I'm going to try and grow into a few more locations. We'll see which avenue I eventually end up focusing on and dedicating time to



snl said:


> UNLESS you are letting the buyer believe that is YOUR honey from your LOCAL apiary....just my opinion.
> 
> Beekeepers are better than that.........


No, anyone who purchases my honey I explain to them that it is Raw honey produced in this state but not from my apiary. I'm very clear about this, and I also let them know that if they would be interested in some of my honey produced locally that hopefully this fall I will have a honey harvest.



sqkcrk said:


> The fact that you are asking the questions you are asking in the way you are asking them hints at an uneasy mind. Which usually means you think you are doing something wrong. So, clearly you are, since you think you are.


An uneasy mind, no not at all; however, I do care about my reputation. I agree with Jim Lyon and JonD in the respect that I feel if I purchase from a bulk supplier, package a product and sell it for a profit I am doing what any small business would do. What I'm interested in, and why I'm asking is whether or not this is considered acceptable behavior among the beekeeping community. I would hate to lose face in front of anyone (whether it be on this site or somewhere else down the road) and miss an opportunity simply because I unknowingly violated some sort of unspoken taboo.

Thanks everyone for your replies as well. The consensus seems to be that as long as I'm fair and honest with my customers there is nothing wrong with what I intend to do.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Moon said:


> I know for a fact all of this honey is produced either on corn fields from the southern end of the state.......


Honey from corn?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Fair and honest trumps unspoken taboos every time. :thumbsup:


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

I'm pretty sure, perhaps not? Maybe it's all just alfalfa and sweet clover. Whatever is grown in the southern part of the state on the border of Nebraska

*edit*

_sqkcrk

Well, it would be hard to get nectar from a plant that doesn't make nectar. So, I really doubt that it happens.

If it did, don't you think that Corn Honey would be available everywhere where corn is planted? Iowa, corn country, is the home of Soiux Bee of Soiux City, IA. They are famous for their clover honey. Not corn honey._


That's a quote from another thread, I guess it must all just be alfalfa and clover then.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Something I wrote? Which Thread? Why are you Posting it here? What does ity havce to do w/ the Thread we arew currently in?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Moon said:


> I'm pretty sure, perhaps not?


But you knew it as a "fact" in your last post! I think the only thing you maybe sure on, is that you're going to do whatever suits you.........


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Moon said:


> What I'm interested in, and why I'm asking is whether or not this is considered acceptable behavior among the beekeeping community. I would hate to lose face in front of anyone (whether it be on this site or somewhere else down the road) and miss an opportunity simply because I unknowingly violated some sort of unspoken taboo.


Look, Moon, if you want to know if what you think you might do is ethyical or not, ask an ethicist. As far as I know, none of us are ethicists.

If you want to buy and sell honey, why do you care a whit what other peoploe think, especially people on an internet forum who you don't even really know? Ask your Mother. Ask your spouse. Ask someone near and dear to you.

If youy are going to go into business buying and selling honey do so. The heck w/ what others will think of you.

I sell honey direct store delivery to about 75 different stores throughout northern NY. I do not produce enough honey to supply the demand. I buy honey from people I know who produce the honey I buy from them here in the North Country too. I also buy Orangeblossom Honey, Blueberry Blossom Honey and Buckwheat Honey. I specifically label the varietal honeys w/ a label which says that I purchased it from freinds of mine. Yet some people still ask me where the Orange Trees grow in NY.

I care what my customers think. I produce, package and sell honey to my customers and I also buy honey to sell to my customers. I have no problem doing so. Neither should you.

Neither should you be concerned about what some person on beesource think of you or your practices as a business person. Let them walk a mile in your shoes first.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

One other thing. In your original post you mentioned not being able to keep up w/ the demand. Your price is too low.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

On the legal front, there may be some issues. In Massachusetts at least, you are allowed to bottle your own honey that you harvest from your own hives (up to some maximum amount) without a certifies facility for food wholesale. If you buy honey from others (even locally) you cannot legally bottle it in your kitchen or basic honey house.

This opens a few cans of worms.....if you have liability insurance, will it cover a product you are selling in violation of health laws (I expect not...but that's between you and your insurance company). 

Can you even admit to customers that it is bought in if you don't have a facility and a record of where the honey came from (we have to document all of our honey and ingredient sources, and they have to be registered by the FDA)?

You seem pretty confident about the producer...what if he is doing exactly what you are doing....buying something else in and selling it as their own. Would you feel duped?

I have no problem buying in honey...... but in our case it is all clearly labeled (not just told to the customer verbally) where it came from and who produced it.

If the relationship between you and your customers is based on a lie or misleading premise ("you are buying honey directly from the beekeeper"), how is that relationship going to progress over time?

Nobody likes.to be misled.....and someone who thinks they are buying your honey would be misled.

Deknow


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

It sounds to me that you are informing your customers that in fact it is not your honey at all in any way shape or form.
Private labels are attached to all kinds of producer's products every day without stating the origin. For example, I had a buddy that worked at Thornapple Valley where he ran the labeling machine. The same meat (smoked sausage) that they produce supplies it under the private label of Meijer. All he had to do to switch labels was flip a switch.
That being said, if the customer is aware of the fact you purchased it elswhere and bottled it under your name, I don't see a problem. I don't see where anyone is being mislead.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Very interesting reading and it's interestingto see how individual backgrounds have impact on answers. 

I still think stating it on a label in some way is probably critical. If you buy honey at the Big Box (father in law swears by it!), it says something like - oh! just found an old bottle! - says "US Grade A Pure Honey," but on the back in very tiny print, stamped in barely discernable print, it says "Product of USA/MAL(Asia)/THI(land)/CAN(ada)." I bout died when I first saw that. Have never bought a jar since. Did I feel misled? You betcha! If they weren't concerned about people being concerned about that, seems to me they would have printed that in large bold letters on the front - ya THINK?

Also, what if John buys that jar for himself, forgets about it, later needs a birthday gift for Sally so he gives your honey. She may not care a whiff that it came to you via Kalamazoo, but she might. If it's not stated somewhere on your label some how, the "fallacy" could indeed exponentiate. 

I'm just saying.


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

It is very important to be honest with your labeling. You also need to completely trust those who you are buying your honey in from.

At farmers market I will see a local farm with honey for sale. Talk to the farmer...they have four hives at the farm and a beekeeper that comes around (not on staff). Farmer tells me the beekeeper takes care of everything...farmer never sees what is going on with the hives but somehow beekeeper is able to keep farmer supplied with honey for 6 markets a week all season plus farm stand. Customers assume honey is from those hives at the farm and farmer either doesn't know questions to ask or doesn't want to know the answers or knows but isn't telling.

Many farms buy in and use farm label and will tell if asked but most don't know to ask.

Not all bought in honey is local and some is low quality unloaded by big migratory onto unsuspecting for their own label.

Who is to blame if customer is not getting what they think they are?

Ramona


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## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

A cannery in France can legally label chinese truffles(they are a totally different species) as a product of france if they are put in the can there...I'm just saying. Technically the product is a local jar of honey while the contents of the local jar (the honey)are not local. 
Really though if you are clear on your labels then consider right now just time to build up a customer base. Hopefully you can keep them until your personal honey production steps up. 
If not keep selling it because money is really good to have nowadays and ultimately you are getting honey, not sugar into peoples' belly.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ramona said:


> It is very important to be honest with your labeling. You also need to completely trust those who you are buying your honey in from.
> 
> At farmers market I will see a local farm with honey for sale. Talk to the farmer...they have four hives at the farm and a beekeeper that comes around (not on staff). Farmer tells me the beekeeper takes care of everything...farmer never sees what is going on with the hives but somehow beekeeper is able to keep farmer supplied with honey for 6 markets a week all season plus farm stand. Customers assume honey is from those hives at the farm and farmer either doesn't know questions to ask or doesn't want to know the answers or knows but isn't telling.
> 
> ...


Do people who buy gas at Amoco stations have these assumptions of whether Amoco sucked the oil out of the ground, refined it, and sold it, never buying oil from other producers to mix w/ theirs?

Do folks that buy hamburgers think about whether their all beef patties are made 100% from beef?
Do Catholics wonder if the candles in their Churches are made from 100% Pure Beeswax?

I agree that what is on the label should be what is in the jar, but we can go to far in extremes to satisfy each and every person or we can do what is right businesswise w/out lying to anyone, letting peoiple make their own assumptions based on what they believe and answering all questions honestly.


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## Rosies (Jun 18, 2008)

Quote: (No, anyone who purchases my honey I explain to them that it is Raw honey produced in this state but not from my apiary. I'm very clear about this, and I also let them know that if they would be interested in some of my honey produced locally that hopefully this fall I will have a honey harvest.)

Are you sure this is raw honey. If it's heated and pressure filtered it's no longer raw honey.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ramona said:


> It is very important to be honest with your labeling. You also need to completely trust those who you are buying your honey in from.
> 
> At farmers market I will see a local farm with honey for sale. Talk to the farmer...they have four hives at the farm and a beekeeper that comes around (not on staff). Farmer tells me the beekeeper takes care of everything...farmer never sees what is going on with the hives but somehow beekeeper is able to keep farmer supplied with honey for 6 markets a week all season plus farm stand. Customers assume honey is from those hives at the farm and farmer either doesn't know questions to ask or doesn't want to know the answers or knows but isn't telling.
> 
> ...


Ramona I understand your frustration when you feel competitors are not being ethical. Unfortunately its part of the world we live in. All you can do is build up a good customer base by being honest and ethical and not try to worry about how the competition is running its business. In short perhaps you should worry more about your business and less about theirs. 
As a "big migratory" it sure seems that you are implying that there is a greater likelihood that we are "unloading" honey that is of a lower quality on an unsuspecting buying public. Why would it not be just as likely that a smaller producer might do the same thing? I feel lonely enough as it is on here without having to see this kind of stereotyping.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Jim, you are not alone.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Jim, you are not alone.


Just badly outnumbered and I dont mean in any way to criticize the many good folks that have a few hives in their back yards. I am only stating that they are the predominate posters on here, not a bad thing just the reality. I do, though, feel that some carry a certain stereotype of commercial operations as being inherently bad and that does tend to irritate me. We work hard at being responsible and ethical and I think our bees make as pure a honey as anyone elses.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

snl said:


> But you knew it as a "fact" in your last post! I think the only thing you maybe sure on, is that you're going to do whatever suits you.........


That's quite the inflammatory statement. I assumed it was the case because I assumed all of the fields in the area this family is located in were corn fields (they're not, they're mostly alfalfa). Guess what, I've been keeping bees for an entire year. I have yet had the time to become a Dr. of Botany, nor a master gardener, or even erudite enough to argue the fine points of various plant species. Again I made an incorrect assumption and until you brought up the point that corn doesn't produce nectar I never thought to investigate it further.

All that aside that's not the reason for your attack on doing 'whatever suits me...' as you try to paint me as a reckless money hungry hack that will do whatever he can to make a buck. Honestly your reason for attacking me eludes me simply because I don't care enough to pursue it further.

On the quality of the product I would be selling though. I know enough about an individual to judge the product they would sell based off of the character of the individual. Shady people sell bad products, honest people that do what they can to make things right typically sell a quality product. TYPICALLY NOT GUARANTEED. In any case, I trust the product I would be marketing and I trust the people that are providing it. If I felt it would jeopardize my reputation obviously I wouldn't sell it.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I think, there is a difference between processed product and packaging the product manufactured by somebody else. When product somehow modified, processed, it is normal that manufacturer (who process product last) could label the product as his own. If product was not modified but just packaged for distribution, than, I think, it is necessary to tell in the label, who is the source of the product. In your case, you are acting as a distributor, thus, the origin of the honey needs to be disclosed. Sergey


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## cdb 1212 (Jun 14, 2012)

t: jim lyon and sqkcrk for one i apreacate and admire the advise and insight of comm. beeks as yourself's. i am new to this and aspire to become a comm. beek. Mark i read many of ypur post and think that you are very smart in what you are doing keep up the good work!


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

snl said:


> UNLESS you are letting the buyer believe that is YOUR honey from your LOCAL apiary....just my opinion.
> 
> Beekeepers are better than that.........


The Mann Lake label says something like " How do you know it is pure honey if you don't know the Beekeeper?"

I agree and my customers do too.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Just badly outnumbered and I dont mean in any way to criticize the many good folks that have a few hives in their back yards. I am only stating that they are the predominate posters on here, not a bad thing just the reality. I do, though, feel that some carry a certain stereotype of commercial operations as being inherently bad and that does tend to irritate me. We work hard at being responsible and ethical and I think our bees make as pure a honey as anyone elses.


I agre with you Jim.
A point which is important in my case. I only produce about 4000 pounds of honey a year. I don't ( have to) move my bees. I only sell local - withina short distance drive from where the bees and I live.
Some of my customers believe very strongly ( and have convinced me by now) that by eating a little local honey with local pollen every day they are on top of a number of allergies - mainly hay fever.
I sell them the most recent honey harvested. If I run out of honey - so be it. Some are willing to wait for the next crop. I can't recall loosing a customer. Commercial or hobby has nothing to do with ethics or bad - I totally agree.
I do what I do for a reason. To bring in honey from a distance would quite possibly destroy part of my customer base.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> I think, there is a difference between processed product and packaging the product manufactured by somebody else. When product somehow modified, processed, it is normal that manufacturer (who process product last) could label the product as his own. If product was not modified but just packaged for distribution, than, I think, it is necessary to tell in the label, who is the source of the product. In your case, you are acting as a distributor, thus, the origin of the honey needs to be disclosed. Sergey


Who does that? Skippy peanut butter doesn't list their suppliers. Nor Jif or anyone else. Thyey don't even tell you when trhey are manufactured on the same line w/ different labels put on them.

What if Moon bought unlabeled honey from the producer and put his label on it? I have no problem w/ that either. He is engaged in business and not misleading anyone as long as the Label says Honey on it and that is what is in the jar.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cdb 1212 said:


> t: jim lyon and sqkcrk for one i apreacate and admire the advise and insight of comm. beeks as yourself's. i am new to this and aspire to become a comm. beek. Mark i read many of ypur post and think that you are very smart in what you are doing keep up the good work!


Thank you.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

max2 said:


> The Mann Lake label says something like " How do you know it is pure honey if you don't know the Beekeeper?"
> 
> I agree and my customers do too.


My Momma says she loves me. She could be jiving me too. 

I bottle and distribute close to 30,000 lbs of honey per year. Almost literaly none of my customers know me. A relatively small number do. What does that say about my customers? You wouldn't consider them dupes, would you?

As much as I like Jack, aka Mr. Mann Lake, and I do, there is another saying, "The proof is in the pudding." plus, "Try it you'll like it." or, as is on my delivery van,, "Your Honey's Here".

What would a customer do were they to buy some honey from a beekeeper that they knew and it tasted like Almond Honey? Would they stop buying honey or just never buy it from that producer?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

max2 said:


> Some of my customers believe very strongly ( and have convinced me by now) that by eating a little local honey with local pollen every day they are on top of a number of allergies - mainly hay fever.


Do you believe that this is true? What if it were not true, because I am skeptical, you would be misleading people were you to tell them it is true. It is a belief, not a fact. And, if any health claims appear on a label that is not only unethical it is illegal. Not that I am saying you are doing so.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

You already know the answer. Btu I will offer my thoughts on the issue.

Honey is labeled as many things. Pure, Raw, Local, etc. And each one means a slightly different thing to each person. The answer for you is to sell your honey depending on what you honestly call it. You don't have to be correct to be honest. In fact, posting this very thread shows you have gone above and beyond the norm to be honest with your customer. If you think they are looking for honey that was produced in your back yard. tell them this is not that honey. you will have some later. But for now you have customers and they want honey even honey that was made 2 hours away.

Provide it, you have nothing to worry about in the honesty department.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We are starting to "urinate into the wind". Let's see a label from the OP. Let's see an Internal stable Carbon isotope ratio test from the honey he purchases. We really do not have good facts here. 

Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> Ramona I understand your frustration when you feel competitors are not being ethical. Unfortunately its part of the world we live in. All you can do is build up a good customer base by being honest and ethical and not try to worry about how the competition is running its business. In short perhaps you should worry more about your business and less about theirs.


Well, this is a thread about ethics...specifically in selling bought in honey. I don't see anything wrong in pointing these things out. I will say that in worrying about our business (Ramona is my wife), we had to get into markets (both retail and wholesale)...without a market, there are no sales. Some markets we could not get into because of a honey vendor...in one case that I know about but had nothing to do with, the seller of the "local honey" was found to be buying in honey and kicked out of the market. In another case, we have had a market manager tell us that no beekeeper in Massachusetts feeds or uses treatments (she is not a beekeeper)...after a couple of years at this market (a lucrative one, very diverse population who wants real honey), suddenly there was "no room" at the market for us (there was plenty of room). Enough phone calls from our customers set things straight.

I've been at state meetings where producers who have a local product at a fraction of the price we are charging was literally screaming at us because we import honey from Arizona. The honey is clearly labeled, not sold as local, and 2-3X the price on the shelf...yet we are somehow unfair competition.

I've really enjoyed our conversations here Jim, and I appreciate where you are coming from...but I expect you keep some tabs on what others are getting for pollination and for bulk honey as part of how you price things yourself...knowing what is going on with the competition is part of minding your own business (literally).

In another case, a beekeeper from another country was working at a local specialty food market....in February (before he even had bees), his own branded honey appeared on the shelf. See below for how that worked out...

But don't be mislead....99% of our energy goes towards what we are doing (it has to be...between markets, retail accounts, running an annual conference, serving on the BOD of our county bee club, writing books, running our breeding program, maintaining our bees, maintaining our certified food facility, speaking, etc...there isn't much time left over).



> As a "big migratory" it sure seems that you are implying that there is a greater likelihood that we are "unloading" honey that is of a lower quality on an unsuspecting buying public. Why would it not be just as likely that a smaller producer might do the same thing? I feel lonely enough as it is on here without having to see this kind of stereotyping.


Well, I have posted about this before. When we had an opurtunity to have some sugar adulteration tests done for free, we took advantage of it (using the Polarmetrics device). There is one "big migratory" that sells a lot of bulk honey to beekeepers (to sell as their own)...they also have their own branded honey. Before the test results came back, Ramona wondered how the honey from the same large migratory producer would test based on if it was under their own name or not.
The results? The honey sold to other beekeepers and bottled by them as their own was 15-30% beet sugar (this includes the beekeeper from another country I mentioned above...and one bottle that said it was produced on an organic farm...$11/lb for 30% beet sugar). Their own branded honey tested pure.
Most large migratory beekeepers (I don't know the details of your business Jim) are pollinators...their honey is a byproduct of pollination. They know that in the volumes they deal with, honey will be tested. They know that the honey they sell to the smaller beekeeper to sell as their own will not be tested, and they know that it will not be traced back to them, because the beekeeper who buys it must maintain the "mystique" of selling their own honey from their own bees, and because they can't afford a proper facility to bottle purchased honey according to the state regulations.
It is unlikely that a small producer (who is focused on honey) would be performing economic adulteration (cheaper/easier to buy in honey). It is probably more likely that feed makes it into the honey (the local producer I mentioned above who was angry that we import honey...his tested at about 5% beet or corn sugar...his response was, "that sounds about right"). But a small producer that buys in honey from a larger operation is at risk of holding the hot potato....and we have documented this, it is not just speculation.
I understand your reaction to Ramona's statements, and I understand that they don't necessarily apply to all migratory operations. I would expect a truely ethical operation to use any "honey" that is suspected to be contaminated with feed as feed, and not sell it as honey. I would expect that a large pollination operation would, in some cases, end up with such substandard honey...where does it go?
So, in short, if what we have seen is common eleswhere, yes, you may get the worst of the migratory beekeepers "honey" by going to a farmers market or specialty store and buying "beekeeper honey".

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I think I understand where deknow is coming from, but I would disagree w/ the generalization that migratory beekeepers honey is a by product. It's part of the whole income/profit producing business plan. Not that youi meant anything degrading by the generalization I'm sure.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Moon, have you checked your state regulations on packaging honey. As deknow has pointed out some states have more stringent regulations. If this were any other food item the regulations would be more uniform because they are federal (and certainly much more restrictive). All I would say is I wouldn't worry about ethics for the honey you sell. I would worry about liability. When you put your label on it you own the liability. Much much different than just reselling someone else's product with their label on it. Who you sell to might make a big difference. If you sell to Joe Blow you could be risking everything you own. If you sell to your neighbors, do you trust them?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...and I would disagree with your paraphrasing of what I said. Please note that both Ramona and myself were referring to "big migratory" or "large migratory" every time we used the word "migratory".
Anyone that is building up bees in the winter to bring the to almonds and then does the rounds is focused on pollination. This is where much of the "honey" that ends up in processed foods goes (note that the largest buyer of honey for putting in food products has no interest in testing for sugar adulteration).
Anyone want to share a breakdown of pollination contracts vs honey sales for a large migratory operation? I bet the pollination contracts trump the honey sales a few times over.

deknow


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

I have said this before and I think I will stick by it (it's not local you want it's raw honey) there is no scientific proof that local honey does anything for allergies however it has been proved that allergies are a result of a low immune system and based on what is in raw honey that it will boost the immune system. If someones allergies flair up in the spring and they want local honey what are they getting? chances are they are getting fall honey since the spring honey will not be harvested until June and by then thier spring allergy flair up is gone anyways.
"Buy Local Honey" is a very good marketing tool that many people have caught onto and have convinced themselves that that is what they need. I believe that it is raw honey that they need and as long as it is raw then it does not matter where it comes from.
So as to buying bulk honey and reselling it under your label, as long as your label says "raw honey" and it is "raw honey" then there is nothing ethically or morally wrong.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

rtoney said:


> ...it has been proved that allergies are a result of a low immune system and based on what is in raw honey that it will boost the immune system.


I thought allergies were generally considered to be an overactive immune system, not a "low" one. What is it in raw honey that will "boost" the immune system? What does "boosting the immune system" mean?

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

oh...and what do you think it means when the label says, "Raw"?

deknow


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

*Honey boosts immunity*. Research conducted in several hospitals in Israel found honey effective in decreasing the incidence of acute febrile neutropenia (when high fever reduces white blood cell count) in 64% of patients. Honey also reduced the need for Colony Stimulating Factor (a compound produced in the cells lining the blood vessels that stimulate bone marrow to produce more white blood cells) in 60% of patients with acute febrile neutropenia; increased neutrophil count (another type of white blood cell), decreased thrombocytopenia (low platelet count), and stabilized hemoglobin levels at >11 gm/dl (a bit low but way better than full blown anemic). 
You can check this link if you like and there are many others.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=96
What does an allergy mean?

An allergy refers to an exaggerated reaction by our immune system in response to bodily contact with certain foreign substances. 
The immune system is not overactive it is low and when it comes in contact with the foreign substance it exaggerates it's response instead of dealing with the foreign substance in the same way that it would if it were built up.
And "raw" is none cooked, overheated, or unpasteurized honey.


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## iwlf (Mar 25, 2012)

Moon said:


> ... have been selling honey I purchase from a commercial beek a couple hours away from me.
> 
> Thanks for replies.


Label it as "WYOMING HONEY: Natural Perfect" all true, no deception.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> oh...and what do you think it means when the label says, "Raw"?
> 
> deknow


http://web.archive.org/web/20071203010606/http://www.honey.com/downloads/honeydefs.pdf


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

rtoney said:


> *Honey boosts immunity*. Research conducted in several hospitals in Israel....
> http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=96


Well, if it's on the internet it must be true? This comes directly from a 2008 symposium promoting honey and human health. The author of the paper was not able to make the conference, so it was read by Fessenden (who organized the conference and writes books about the health benefits of honey).
The data that you are citing here is from a paper that was read (not by the author) at a promotion of honey conference...and as far as I can tell, the paper itself was never published. In short, this does not appear to come from any kind of peer reviewed or replicated study of any kind.
"proven" seems too strong a word for this.



> The immune system is not overactive it is low and when it comes in contact with the foreign substance it exaggerates it's response instead of dealing with the foreign substance in the same way that it would if it were built up.


"Low" doesn't describe anything...is it a technical term I'm not familiar with? Doesn't an exaggerated response indicate "overactive"?

deknow


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

I think it's safe to say MOST people don't care where their gas comes from. Not sure that's a fair comparison, Mark. Those who buy honey at Wal-Mart don't care. Those who will go to a farmer's market or honey stand more likely do - care what's in it and where it's from.

As far as what is put on the label or not, there ARE defined guidelines. I think the label needs to make a fair and accurate statement at a basic level. Produced by, bottled by, whatever. Check with your state guidelines. Ours has them. Or maybe it's FDA, I don't remember - which I had that problem to figure out! (no honey, no honey, only spenda lots a money!  ) As long as you do that, and don't misrepresent or omit, I think that's all you can do.

Speaking of FDA.... companies don't have to list that there is likely to be some ****roach leg in your tuna or peanut butter, but in fact it is "okayed" by the FDA. They approve it as "safe." 

http://www.fda.gov/food/guidancecom...on/guidancedocuments/sanitation/ucm056174.htm


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Acebird said:


> http://web.archive.org/web/20071203010606/http://www.honey.com/downloads/honeydefs.pdf



errr...."without adding heat" is meaningless. You "add heat to honey" (in the comb or in the jar) every time the ambient temperature is warmer than the temp of the honey....like as the day warms up.

deknow


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It's not meaningless. "You're" not adding heat to honey when the ambient temperature changes, unless you have greater abilities than I think you do. Honey gets hotter in Arizona than it does in Maine. Does that mean the honey in Arizona is not raw? Perhaps it's of lesser quality because it's been at a higher temp.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

All of these ethics threads revolve around doing something that is advantageous to you and may in some way create a false illusion in the customers mind. This is what our politicians do every day in DC. If you think it OK to slide one by the customer, because after all, it's not an out and out lie. Then do it, but I remember what my old deceased dad would say, "usually the hardest thing to do is the right thing." Personally, I don't think ethics is a semantic game.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

If you want to get into the semantics of the statement, you best actually read the definintion (from 2007...from the NHB)...



> Honey as it exists in the beehive or as obtained by extraction,
> settling or straining without adding heat.


Ok so let's examine the def....


> Honey as it exists in the beehive


...honey as it exists in the beehive is in comb, in the dark, fairly well temperature regulated (at least on the top end), secured in a frame (or not...but it is a whole, uncut comb) and covered with bees.



> or as obtained by extraction,
> settling or straining without adding heat.


...nothing about whether you the beekeeper added the heat, or intentionality. If the honey gets warmer than it is at any given time, heat has been _added_. I've heard (seriously) claim they don't heat....but put the supers in a warm room before extracting (sometimes inside a car on a hot sunny day).

Yes, the honey from Arizona probably gets to 100 or so in the comb, at least.

There is no legally binding definition of raw...people use it however they like.

Most raw foods folks see food heated above 104 as not raw.

There is even more confusion on the raw chocolate world...in order to develop the full flavor, the cacao pod sits in the sun and ferments...this temp gets above the 104. By these standards, the only unfermented cacao would be raw....there is a serious marketing problem with this...it doesn't taste very good. ...so many just call it raw if it hasn't been roasted...but again, there is lots of confusion for the consumer.

deknow


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

deknow:

The below statement is what I was referring to as being "semantics."

"Is it ethical to buy THEIR honey and market it under MY label? What if I were to purchase their honey and blend it with mine so that I am able to supply the demand yet still market it as my honey? I'm torn on this and I don't want to do anything that would later be construed as unethical."


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

Overactive and exaggerated are not the same thing. Exaggerated the way I see it is a response to something such as pollen. High, overactive, low , or underactive is due to the lack of or overabundance of on a contious bases.
Based on the natural properties of raw honey it is healthy and will build the immune system.
And once you buy the honey it is yours maybe just not out of YOUR bee hive.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Yes, I was referring to Barry's post.

And I agree with you. Nothing wrong with selling someone elses honey under your label. If you are giving the customer the impression that you actually produced it when you didn't, that is a totally different matter.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

rtoney said:


> Overactive and exaggerated are not the same thing. Exaggerated the way I see it is a response to something such as pollen. High, overactive, low , or underactive is due to the lack of or overabundance of on a contious bases.


...errrr, ok. so an overactive immune response is not an exaggerated response? It's a normal response? Is it a minimized response? ...seems exaggerated to me.



> Based on the natural properties of raw honey it is healthy and will build the immune system.


..next you will tell us it "helps eliminate toxins" (without telling us what those toxins are). 

What are the natural properties of honey that hel[p build the immune system?

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...it's also worth noting that that same NHB document has the following clasification:



> Commercially Raw Honey: Honey as obtained by minimum processing.
> This product is often labeled as raw honey.


"minimum processing" can mean anything.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> ...and I would disagree with your paraphrasing of what I said. Please note that both Ramona and myself were referring to "big migratory" or "large migratory" every time we used the word "migratory".
> Anyone that is building up bees in the winter to bring the to almonds and then does the rounds is focused on pollination.
> deknow


Alright, I apologize. Who are you talking about? Not their names exactly, but their colony count. Because I know beekeepers w/ 3500 who do what you describe and honey is an important part of their business plan. I know beekeepers w/ 10,000 colonies and honey is an important part of their business plan. I have never directly asked them if they considered their honey production a by product.

Granted that pollination may be the greater percentage of their income.

I don't know everything about any of the beekeeping operations of size that I know of, but what I do know of in depth relating to some of them, they don't send 100% of their colonies to almonds or to blueberries. Pollination is not the only thing they do. Which you might know, but others might not. So I thought I'd mention it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Seymore said:


> As far as what is put on the label or not, there ARE defined guidelines. I think the label needs to make a fair and accurate statement at a basic level.


What is required on the Label is an identification of what is in the jar, HONEY, the name and address of the Company or individual who put that product in the jar, and the amount of product in the container, such as 8oz., 1lb, etc.

Nothing more is required. Anything else is what you wish to communicate.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

deknow, you seem full of vim and vigor today. 
Nutritional Content
Raw unprocessed honey contains B complex vitamins, which include riboflavin, niacin, pantothenic acid, thiamine, pyridoxine, biotin and B12. It also contains vitamins A, C, D, E and K, as well as traces of minerals like iron, calcium, copper, potassium, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium and zinc. It also contains enzymes and amino acids 
Enzymes and Other Health Promoting Substances 
Raw honey contains live enzymes (these help your body break down foods and undigested particles) 
• Proteins
• Carbohydrates
• Organic Acids
• Hormones
• Anti-microbrial factors 
• Anti-biotic factors 

Having these alone allows me to believe in the building of the immune system if nothing else.
I am not going to stand I give my customers the stacks of information on honey and I am sure that all of your information comes from first hand knowledge and nothing from the web.
However I was not born with a bee degree or honey degree so I find information from the web helpful and it is not as hard as some may think to discern good infromation from bad information.
So if you want to struggle over what is good for you or not go for it.
I think RAW HONEY is good or I would not say so
If I buy RAW HONEY and resell it, it is still RAW HONEY
If I buy RAW HONEY and mix it with my RAW HONEY it is still RAW HONEY
If I buy RAW HONEY it is my honey so I sell it as my honey.
I am a beekeeper and I can still be a honey packer and enjoy my bees just as much as anyone else.
I can make money with honey and still enjoy beekeeping.
Hope this is not to hard for anyone to understand.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lazy shooter said:


> deknow:
> 
> The below statement is what I was referring to as being "semantics."
> 
> "Is it ethical to buy THEIR honey and market it under MY label? What if I were to purchase their honey and blend it with mine so that I am able to supply the demand yet still market it as my honey? I'm torn on this and I don't want to do anything that would later be construed as unethical."


I have friends who have been keeping bees and selling honey longer than almost any of us who would ask, "If you buy honey, whose is it?".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> If you are giving the customer the impression that you actually produced it when you didn't, that is a totally different matter.
> 
> deknow


And what if they jump to that impression on their own? What responsibility does the seller have to disillution the customer(s)?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...then you are free to advertise in the back of a comic book next to the X-ray glasses and the workout plan that will prevent sand from ever being kicked in your face...or at the gas station next to the lottery tickets....or the amazing sea monkeys that look like little aquatic people on the package.

If you think your product is good, why wouldn't you want your customers to know about it? 

If you think you would loose sales by being upfront....then you are profiting by not being upfront. That's your business......nut just because people do it, it doesn't make it honest.

Deknow


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

When I buy from another beek, I always search out someone in my general area. I tell my customers if they ask that the honey I am selling comes from NE Indiana / NW Ohio area. I do not specifically tell them it is from my bees.


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

jim lyon said:


> Ramona I understand your frustration when you feel competitors are not being ethical. Unfortunately its part of the world we live in. All you can do is build up a good customer base by being honest and ethical and not try to worry about how the competition is running its business. In short perhaps you should worry more about your business and less about theirs.
> As a "big migratory" it sure seems that you are implying that there is a greater likelihood that we are "unloading" honey that is of a lower quality on an unsuspecting buying public. Why would it not be just as likely that a smaller producer might do the same thing? I feel lonely enough as it is on here without having to see this kind of stereotyping.


Hi Jim,
I was frustrated four years ago when trying to get access to markets but no more...our customer base has consistently grown and now folks seek us out and ask us to participate in more events than we have time for. This is because we HAVE focused on our business.

I do think that the bigger operations tend to have more poor quality honey to offload precisely because they ARE bigger. Also, the poorer honey may not even be the product of that particular big guy. I know that honey can change hands many times and unless you truly know and trust your source, you may have NO idea of what you are actually getting. Not sure that smaller guys have the excess to offload...,although nothing would prevent a smaller guy from buying in and offloading to an unsuspecting whoever. I know that that happens...all the way down to the beekeeper with a couple of hives who wants to have more honey to sell. My point was that unless you absolutely know the source of what you're buying, you do not know, whether you are buying in honey to resell or buying as a customer at a market table or retail store. 

Sorry that you thought I was stereotyping...not my intention. I enjoy many of your posts and don't think of you as any other than a welcome poster on beesource. One of my best friends is a migratory beekeeper  and he and I spend quite a bit of time talking about his operation, practices, etc. and I trust him completely. I know smaller beekeepers that I wouldn't extend that trust to. So it's not about size or mode of operation for me but about character and trust.

Getting back to the OP...for our business, being completely transparent and building trust with our customers has been the most important part of what we do. I speak to thousands of customers a year at our markets and believe me, they want to know the truth about what they are buying, even if they do not yet have the knowledge or vocabulary to know what to ask. 

I agree with one of the earlier posters who suggested clearly stating that the honey is not yours but someone else's and charging a premium for his/her own honey when available. This way you are getting off on the best foot possible, educating your customers as you go and having them know that you are an honest and trustworthy person to be doing business with.

On a parallel theme...one of my farmer's market neighbors (booth next to me) sells for the farmer who she also farms for. I hear the customers ask over and over if the vegetables are hers/the farms. Some of the stuff is bought in from nearby farms and she explains all day long which is which. Next year she is renting land to grow some of her own food to sell...the customers can't wait...they love her, her honesty and manner. 

The customers don't care that legally those vegetables (or honey) grown by the nearby farm technically belong to the selling farmer (beekeeper) because he paid for them...I would challenge anyone to try that conversation with a potential customer and see how it goes. 

Where things are grown/produced and under what conditions matter to many customers and you are ahead of the game if you are willing and able to communicate the truth clearly. It also helps if the honey tastes amazing 

Ramona


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

There is a world of difference between a large honey producer and a guy/gal at the farmer's market advertising themselves as beekeepers and selling honey that is not their own. Most farmer's markets have rules that state where the products being sold must come from (within xx miles, etc). 
Also, the perception of the buyers is that the farmers (and beeks are farmers) adhere to the rules of the market. Selling goods that do not meet that criteria is unethical. Forget semantics, we all know how we would like to be treated; just treat your customers with honesty and integrity. It is not rocket science (for most of us)......


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> And what if they jump to that impression on their own? What responsibility does the seller have to disillution the customer(s)?


I think we all know the answer to that...........


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> errr...."without adding heat" is meaningless. You "add heat to honey" (in the comb or in the jar) every time the ambient temperature is warmer than the temp of the honey....like as the day warms up.
> 
> deknow


I will make an assumption that the intent of the statement was for process heat or elevated storage temperatures. If heat was added in a natural way within the hive it would be acceptable.



> Perhaps it's of lesser quality because it's been at a higher temp.


It can be as if it were stored in the trunk of your car. Again, much more restrictions on all other foods that would cover every scenario. Honey is kind of free wheeling if you will. To someone that cares knowing the source gives an element of trust that isn't there when compared to open sources.
Mass produced honey will have a better consistency just like any fast food. We have a local Greek restaurant that advertises heavily on the consistency of their food. To me that just says he gets his food from Sysco just like all the other fast food providers.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

No need to lie, tell the truth, you are out of your own honey, but you have honey that is just as good of quality and integrity that you purchase from a FRIEND when you are out. Tell them what part of the state its from just like you did here and you wont have a problem. If people find out you market honey as yours thats is not yours, you will ruin your reputation for ever. Be honest, and build honest business relationships for when you can supply the demand on your own and you wont regret it, lie and you will feel guilty when you are selling your own honey.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Who does that? Skippy peanut butter doesn't list their suppliers. Nor Jif or anyone else. Thyey don't even tell you when trhey are manufactured on the same line w/ different labels put on them.


 In accordance to my logic it is right - if they DO manufacture the product (process, modify, improve, treat), they could put any label they wanted, even different labels, it is their choice. When you just package and distribute - in my opinion, it is a different story. Look on Trader Joe's labels: "Sunflower Oil", distributed by Trader Joe's, produced in Ukraine. I think, this is a proper way to label.



sqkcrk said:


> What if Moon bought unlabeled honey from the producer and put his label on it? I have no problem w/ that either. He is engaged in business and not misleading anyone as long as the Label says Honey on it and that is what is in the jar.


 for this reason,people are very cynical regarding labeling. It compromises the whole idea of the fair trade if somebody may misrepresent the product so easily (following your logic). Sergey


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

deknow said:


> ...honey as it exists in the beehive is in comb, in the dark, fairly well temperature regulated (at least on the top end), secured in a frame (or not...but it is a whole, uncut comb) and covered with bees.


Maybe in your hives, but that is not the case in mine. When honey combs get capped (in the supers), the vast majority of my bees leave it and move to either uncapped comb or brood comb. Since capped honey comb is at the top of the hive with far fewer bees, I believe the temperature is far less regulated than in the brood nest. Do you have studies to show this is not the case?



> "or as obtained by extraction, settling or straining without adding heat." ...nothing about whether you the beekeeper added the heat, or intentionality. If the honey gets warmer than it is at any given time, heat has been _added_. I've heard (seriously) claim they don't heat....but put the supers in a warm room before extracting (sometimes inside a car on a hot sunny day).


Dean, did you read it? It says; "without adding heat"! If the beekeeper adds heat, it isn't raw. If you're concerned about ambient heat, then there ought to be a range that is allowed that coincides with the environment the bees are in. 110 or lower. 



> Yes, the honey from Arizona probably gets to 100 or so in the comb, at least.


I'm sure it does. "As a natural product, the composition of honey is highly variable." Yes it is, as is the temperature it is found in nature.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Barry said:


> Maybe in your hives, but that is not the case in mine. ...I believe the temperature is far less regulated than in the brood nest. Do you have studies to show this is not the case?


Well, at some point below the melting point of wax (about 144) it gets soft, and would collapse if it weren't temperature regulated...I said "at least at the top end" because of this specifically...bees can afford to let honey filled comb to freeze, but not to melt. Do you think I need a study to show this? ...or can we agree that the temp is "pretty well regulated (at least on the top end"? I've only ever had one comb collapse (despite a large number of unwired deep foundationless combs full of honey). I don't see where i stated or implied that honey supers are as well regulated as the broodnest (it doesn't have to be).



> Dean, did you read it? It says; "without adding heat"! If the beekeeper adds heat, it isn't raw


.
...so if I take honey from Vermont that is in the barrel at 60 degrees and ADD HEAT in the bottling tank so that it is 80 degrees, it is not raw?
If I take possession of a barrel of honey in the winter time, in order to keep it raw I can't warm it up to room temperature?
If I'm selling honey in a tent at Christmas time, and the tent gets below freezing at night, and is heated during the day, is the honey that I stored there overnight not raw anymore?

Again, this is an old document...last revised in 2003, and accessed via archives. If we are going to discuss a definition of "raw", I think we can find a better one...especially because if you read the "commercially raw honey" def, you see the following:


> Commercially Raw Honey: Honey as obtained by minimum processing.
> This product is often labeled as raw honey.
> 
> Notes: 1) Storage or exposure to either ambient (environmental) or applied
> ...


...so essentially, the document says that calling honey raw is the call of the purchaser, to their own standards. In other words, this document gives no definition of what can be called raw honey...which was my point.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> If you think your product is good, why wouldn't you want your customers to know about it?
> 
> Deknow


I do think my honey is good and my customers do too. My Label tells them that the jar contains Natural North Country HONEY from Squeak Creek Apiaries, w/ my address, phone number and weight of contents. I think that tells them as much as they need to know. If not, they have my phone number so they can call me if there are any questions.

I am not loosing sales. I could sell as much as I could get my hands on.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sergey, "produced in Ukraine" is legally required because it is Imported. It is also a selling point for Trader Joe's. On top of that, most people know that Trader Joe's is not a producer of any of the products which have Trader Joe's Labels on them.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...and you think that doesn't imply (strongly) that the honey was produced by squeak creek apiaries (meaning apiaries owned and operated by you according to your methods/standards)?

If you purchased blueberries with a label that stated, "natural north country blueberries from widget farms", would you expect widget farms to the place where the berries were grown? ...or a packer that buys from X,Y, and Z farms? ...or is it ok to be the packer pretending to be the farm if you have a blueberry bush out front?

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, that's the trouble w/ my company name. It's a little late to do so, but maybe it should be Squeak Creek Honey Company or just plain Squeak Creek LLC. I know what you mean.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Just wanted to post a definition so people could know what they were being accused of because I see the term so often inappropriately applied.

semantics, noun:


A branch of linguistics studying the meaning of words.
The study of the relationship between words and their meanings. 
The individual meanings of words, as opposed to the overall meaning of a passage.

I assume the third is the most pertinent definition. However, I rarely see that great a disconnect between a word's meaning and its context in these discussions.

Arguing over the definition of a word is not semantics. It's arguing over the definition of a word. 

"We're out of milk, I'm afraid." Arguing that 'I'm afraid' means that 'the speaker is fearful' is semantics by the third definition. 'Arguing over semantics' should necessarily mean 'arguing over the individual meanings of words as opposed to the overall meaning of the passage.'


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Yeah, that's the trouble w/ my company name. It's a little late to do so, but maybe it should be Squeak Creek Honey Company or just plain Squeak Creek LLC. I know what you mean.


Errr...isn't this what we've just spent pages arguing over?
The proper way to deal with this is "packed by" rather than language that implies that you produced it.

deknow


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Visit here...National Honey Board. Says what is REQUIRED for labeling. Then adds other things to "consider." 

http://www.honey.com/nhb/industry/labeling-information/

If you follow that, you are doing what is REQUIRED. The rest is up to you!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Yeah, that's the trouble w/ my company name.


It is not to late. It can be changed any time you want to put the effort in. You have said this before.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> Errr...isn't this what we've just spent pages arguing over?
> The proper way to deal with this is "packed by" rather than language that implies that you produced it.
> 
> deknow


Yeah, guess you are right. Now I need twice as many labels and a system to track the buckets I produced and the buckets I bought.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

No you need a label maker that can print what you need on the fly. Bar codes if you like but I suppose you don't do much in the way of inventory control.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bar codes I have. Many stores I deal w/ require them. My labels are professionally produced.


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## Honeypeach (Mar 15, 2012)

Acebird said:


> I wouldn't worry about ethics for the honey you sell. I would worry about liability.


It's statements like this that make me worry a great deal about ethics. Basically - do what you want as long as you don't get caught. Shame on you.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Sergey, "produced in Ukraine" is legally required because it is Imported. It is also a selling point for Trader Joe's. On top of that, most people know that Trader Joe's is not a producer of any of the products which have Trader Joe's Labels on them.


 Yes, I agree, but why not to use the same approach inside the US and tell people the origin of your product? If product is good, it may be a selling point also, right? If I would face this dilemma, my solution, probably, would be that I would have two nearly identical labels (some difference in color), one with statement that I do distribute the product with reference to the origin and another - that this is my own product. My own product, I would sell 10% higher than other. But, I am horrible at business, I am only theorizing. Sergey


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I was just thinking what people from outside of the beekeeping word would think reading some comments in this thread? I personally, would never ever trust any honey even from the farmers market after all these insider's details... Sergey


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sergey,
Were you to buy honey to resell it, I believe you would sell it for the same amount as your own, having invested your hard earned money in it. From my point of view. Maybe otghers do different. 

I currently sell liquid honey in 8oz, honeybears, 1lb, 1lb No Drip, 2lb, 5lb, and 60 lb totes, miniframe combs, 1lb Raw Honey (meaning unstrained and unheated during the bottling process and not being heated during the extracting process), 1lb Creamed (not going to define that here, thank you), and four different 2lb Varietal jars (Orangeblossom, Blueberry Blossom, Buckwheat and Bamboo Honeys). I have Front Labels and Back Labels (which have the bar codes on them.

That's enough to keep track of. I am not going to make seperate labels for every individual I buy honey from. It isn't cost effective. I'm going to have three different Orangeblossom Honey Labels because I have bought OB Honey from three different producers? Nope, not gonna do it. But thanks for the advice.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> ... But thanks for the advice.


 I had no intention to give anybody "advise" on this matter - I have no real expertise in the business of any kind... But this thread was about ethical aspects of selling honey and as a customer, I feel I have my own opinion.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, you do. Thank you for sharing those views. Really.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Honeypeach said:


> Basically - do what you want as long as you don't get caught.


We live in a capitalistic system where profits take the front seat over ethics when regulation does not exist. If you want to live with blinders on be my guest but there is a reason for the phrase "buyer beware".


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Acebird said:


> We live in a capitalistic system where profits take the front seat over ethics when regulation does not exist. If you want to live with blinders on be my guest but there is a reason for the phrase "buyer beware".


You're right, but I thought Beeks were better than that............I guess as in all things, some are......some, regrettably not........


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Which, when read seems like a harsh staement, but I believe Acebird is stating reality as he sees it. If profit were not the paramount goal, how would one remain viable. Subsistance is possible for those not dependent on profitable business practices to sustain life. This doesn't mean that concern for the bees, the environment, and the consuming public shoud not be taken into consideration when making business decisions.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> If profit were not the paramount goal, how would one remain viable. Subsistance is possible for those not dependent on profitable business practices to sustain life.


Back to my example using the business I am in - resale furniture. We are a small company, employ 4. Our sales allow us a "living." Meaning, not a killing. (some would call it subsistence!) And since hub and I work it together, it is a major source of our income. A customer comes in and is eyeing a dining table that seems it will not sell. (Yes, we have those certain pieces - ugh!) If I talk with her and hear her likes and dislikes and her decor and her "personality" and I KNOW this piece would look horrid in her environment, and she just looks at it and says "I want this one." You betcha I will write it up. BUT, if she asks me my opinion, I will tell her . . . And I will tell her honestly. Been there, done that, and winced while doing so! But my reputation is more important to me than a few dollars made on getting rid of a table we wished we had never bought. Thankfully, we hear almost every week how people have "heard" about us and "you have such a good reputation!" Man, that means the world to me. I may have to get another job to make ends meet, but I love that we are known for our honesty and integrity. To me - THAT is profit. Won't pay my bills of course. I have to continually reevaluate inventory, buying practices, what works, what doesn't - just like every business that wants to succeed. I don't want to just make money. I want to be a trustworthy source of product and information. THAT - maybe more slowly - will pay my bills and keep us growing.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

Most are looking at the whole issue in the light of what someone has defined as ethics but who defined them and who is obligated to use them.
In cannibalistic societies there is nothing immoral or grotesque about eating human flesh, they were raised that way and they live that way. In my eyes it is wrong because of the way I have been rasied.
It's the same with ethics and business practices
Some will say "do unto others" and I agree but once again if the society you live and were raised in believes differently what makes me right and them wrong.
We tend to look at most cases from a Christian view point whether you want to admit it or not. When we define ethics it will come from our dictionary and society not from another society and even from what part of the country you were rasied in.
We may think that beekeepers are a special breed or something and because one does it differently then I it's time to come down on them and straighten them out. 
When you say "profit takes the front seat over ethics" whos ehitcs are you speaking of yours or mine and what would make yours right and mine wrong or vise a versa. Then you say well the common practice would take presidence once again whos?
There is alot of others trying to convince others that thier way of thinking is the only way of thinking and its not.
Whoever posted this to begin with just remember when you ask a question you will get many different views and its up to you to decide which one you like or don't like.
I see alot of what many say that I agree with and alot of what the same many say that I don't agree with.


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## Lancejones (May 24, 2012)

Moon, what if you found that the commercial you are buying from was buying from another, and reselling to you? What if was without your knowledge? What if they are buying from someone who is importing? Answer that for yourself, and treat your customers the same.

Getting off topic, but why is capitalism not ethical? Communism and socialism are somehow inherently ethical, where capitalism is not?


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

We have hashed and rehashed, and this will be my final comment. (i very possibly think, maybe) 

Rtone - "In cannibalistic societies there is nothing immoral or grotesque about eating human flesh, they were raised that way and they live that way."

I agree here. However this is a SURVIVAL issue, not a sales issue. Now if that cannibal were to try to sell a "nice, fresh young thang" when in actuality it was a quite old feller who had been soaked in vinegar to get rid of the stench - I can't imagine that would be looked on as acceptable in that society.

True, due to the way I was raised, I can't imagine profit over ethics ever being a mainstream way of teaching.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

If members want to discuss societal issues, take it to Tailgater.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

What level of quality would you no longer sell a product? Dean mentions some sugar adulterations, is it acceptable in those cases to be willingly ignorant? Is it okay to say 'nothing added' when you know full well that you fed the bees a ton of syrup but you technically didn't add anything to the finished honey? 

We know there's a lot of words like 'natural' and 'raw' which fundamentally mean nothing. Is it okay to use a word you know is meaningless to try to evoke some sensibility?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Meaningless words are used all the time to sell or promote a product. You would be hard pressed not to find meaningless words in any advertisement.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Meaningless words are used all the time to sell or promote a product. You would be hard pressed not to find meaningless words in any advertisement.


Don't sound proud of it. There are a lot of handles on this board where, if I ever see them on a product, I will avoid them and advise others to do so. "Ethics" doesn't seem to figure much at all in some of these posts.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Please explain.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Seymore said:


> However this is a SURVIVAL issue, not a sales issue.


You are thinking of Donner Party or Crashed in the Andes perhaps. In cannablistic societies it is a cultural thing where the enemy warrior is eaten to gain his strength.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> What level of quality would you no longer sell a product? Dean mentions some sugar adulterations, is it acceptable in those cases to be willingly ignorant? Is it okay to say 'nothing added' when you know full well that you fed the bees a ton of syrup but you technically didn't add anything to the finished honey?
> 
> We know there's a lot of words like 'natural' and 'raw' which fundamentally mean nothing. Is it okay to use a word you know is meaningless to try to evoke some sensibility?


I do not test the honey I buy. Though, quite often I help take it off of hives and help to extract it. So I am as confident as anyone can be that nothing is done to the honey between comb and bucket. Not that that is why I am involved to the degree I am.

"natural" and "raw" are meaningless terms? I don't think so. Natural Noth Country Honey tells the buyer that what is in the jar is made by bees, naturally, and it comes from a region of NY called The North Country and that the contents are Honey. Raw Honey means unheated and unstrained.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

KelpticFest said:


> Don't sound proud of it. There are a lot of handles on this board where, if I ever see them on a product, I will avoid them and advise others to do so. "Ethics" doesn't seem to figure much at all in some of these posts.


How so? 

Walk the walk, then tell others how they should walk. Feed your family by the sweat of your brow and then tell others who do so likewise how they should do things differently. Statements such as your sound so high and mighty.

Have you ever considered that we are all doing the best we can with what we have and within the circumstances we find ourselves, you included?


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> Please explain.


If you mean me - there have been several dealers whose attitude is basically, I'll sell whatever I want labeled however I want. It would seem simple enough to clearly label honey produced personally by the seller as such, and "bought in" honey very honestly, that is, bought from someone whose practices I know and trust, vs bought from someone and I have no idea where it came from originally. There are some producers whose practices, as stated on this board, make me shudder at the thought that they may be labeling something as local, pure, raw, or whatever, knowing full well they can't truly substantiate these claims. And what's more, being totally unconcerned about it. Maybe they're too big to keep track. Maybe they're too big to fail. I'll stick with my own, thanks, and if I have enough to sell it will be labeled in detail and honestly.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And how do you habdle the fact that people don't read signs? Or even that which is right in front of them. On the back of my label is a poem I wrote about Pollen and Nectar. It's on every jar and container that has a barcode label on it. I recited it one time to a group of nonbeekeeping friends of mine and they asked where it came from and where could they get a copy of it. These are people who I know have my honey in their cupboards or on their counters.

So, you can explain everything you think is pertinent or obligitory and peoiple will still ask you, "Do you heat this RAW honey?", "Where does this Orangeblossom Honey come from?", "Is this local honey?" (it says North Country right there in Black and Yellow right over the word HONEY).

I tell peoiple what I think they need to know and then when they ask it is usually something that is not on the label. I can't anticipate all of the questions and can't afford hangtags for every jar to answer what someone might ask or wonder.

Besides, you are a beekeeper, aren't KelpticFest? You shouldn't have to buy honey.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Feed your family by the sweat of your brow and then tell others who do so likewise how they should do things differently. Statements such as your sound so high and mighty.QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I have. I started school in a one-room schoolhouse on a dirt road, with 13 students in 6 grades. I did what I could with what I had, and it hasn't included selling honey of doubtful origins.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> And how do you habdle the fact that people don't read signs?.......I tell peoiple what I think they need to know and then when they ask it is usually something that is not on the label. I can't anticipate all of the questions and can't afford hangtags for every jar to answer what someone might ask or wonder.
> 
> Besides, you are a beekeeper, aren't KelpticFest? You shouldn't have to buy honey.


I am a small-scale beekeeper, and haven't had to buy honey since I began. However, I do remember looking at labels and believing I could depend on what they said. No more - you've taken care of that.

Politicians also tell people what they think they need to know. Is that the crowd you want to run with?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm sure you have done the best you could at any given time in your life. 

So you believe my honey is of doubtful origins? What clued you into that? Something I readily admitted to when asked or prompted? Were my comments or answers misleading or untruthful?

If I told you my daughter is going to the Olympics, what assumptions would you make? What questions would you ask about that statement? Me saying that she is going to the Olympics is not misleading or untrue. But, what the picture you have in your mind probably isn't reality. Is that my fault or yours?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

KelpticFest said:


> Politicians also tell people what they think they need to know. Is that the crowd you want to run with?


Now that's a pretty low blow, don't you think? 

What is on your label? Do you have one? What is not on my label that my customers need to know? It is not my fault thgat you deluded yourself by making uninformed assumptions from reading a label. Glad to be of help in disspelling your delusions.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> So you believe my honey is of doubtful origins? What clued you into that? Something I readily admitted to when asked or prompted? Were my comments or answers misleading or untruthful?


No, but it sounds like your labels are.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Now that's a pretty low blow, don't you think?
> 
> "...if you walk the walk ...."


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm going to stop arguing w/ you about this after my last comment.

I notice you are not honest enough to sign your name to your Posts.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Wow, this is getting hot.

Moon, I would just make sure I had permission from the company you're buying from to remarket thier honey. I would feel fine about it then and could sell it with a clear conscience. 

I guess there may be a few other factors, but I'd have to think about it.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm going to stop arguing w/ you about this after my last comment.
> 
> I notice you are not honest enough to sign your name to your Posts.


Don't be too mean.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I notice you are not honest enough to sign your name to your Posts.


 Sqkcrk, I was looking for your credentials in your profile and find none. May be I misunderstood something, but you also do not present any real info regarding your identity... The reason I was looking is that I want to see your products in the store(s)... After this discussion - I am concerned... Sergey (my true name)


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> What is not on my label that my customers need to know?


 Sqkcrk, could you post the example of your real label, preferably with poem? Then, we could see if it sufficient or not. Otherwise - it's empty words! In return - I could post my own label if you wish, but it's copyrighted. Sergey


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Rosies said:


> Quote: (No, anyone who purchases my honey I explain to them that it is Raw honey produced in this state but not from my apiary. I'm very clear about this, and I also let them know that if they would be interested in some of my honey produced locally that hopefully this fall I will have a honey harvest.)
> 
> Are you sure this is raw honey. If it's heated and pressure filtered it's no longer raw honey.


Yeah I'm sure it's raw honey because typically when I get it it's completely crystallized into a solid chunk of honey I have to reheat then package into the jars I sell it


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

deknow said:


> You seem pretty confident about the producer...what if he is doing exactly what you are doing....buying something else in and selling it as their own. Would you feel duped?
> Deknow


Please read the previous quotes. I know this guy isn't buying and reselling someone else's honey because he runs several thousand hives. Why buy and resell someone else's honey when you have well over five thousand hives? He's got better things to do with his time managing apiaries all over the state. I've been to their honey processing facility, I've been to their apiaries, I've seen hundred plus barrels sitting in their store house during the fall after they extract. Some of Wyoming's finest corn honey. Just ask snl.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Nothing against you, sqkcrk, but I noticed the same thing as cerezha.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> Sqkcrk, could you post the example of your real label, preferably with poem? Then, we could see if it sufficient or not. Otherwise - it's empty words! In return - I could post my own label if you wish, but it's copyrighted. Sergey


I would love to see your label. So what if it is copyrighted?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> Sqkcrk, I was looking for your credentials in your profile and find none. May be I misunderstood something, but you also do not present any real info regarding your identity... The reason I was looking is that I want to see your products in the store(s)... After this discussion - I am concern... Sergey (my true name)


My name is Mark Berninghausen. My full name doesn't appear at the bottom of Posts because the Tag Line Length doesn't allow it. For many years my full name, along w/ my website address appeared. I no lo0nger have a website.

What do you want to know that isn't in my Profile. I think I am about as forward and honest in my replies as anyone on beesource and at least as open as anyone else, if not more.

You will go a long way before you find my product in stores. There is about 2500 to 3000 miles between NY and CA, isn't there. But, if youy wish to make the trip I will give you a tour of the outlets currently carrying my Honey.

I went and checked my Profile. Plant Hardiness Zone information is a little bit to personal for me to wish to share.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> Sqkcrk, I was looking for your credentials in your profile and find none.


Are you sure you read the About Me portion of the Profile?

Have had bees since 1975.
AAS in Commercial Beekeeping from OSU/ATI 1986.
20 years Apiary Inspection w/ NYS Ag&Mkts.
Owner of Squeak Creek Apiaries since 1988.
Markets 25,000 to 30,000 lbs of Honey annually across The North Country.
Been on beesource 7 years w/ over 16,000 Posts (whatever that's worth I don't know).
Barry trusted me enough to allow the handling of an antique foundation mill from the seller to him w/out security.

What do you want? Proof? Not going to give you my SS Number or my PIN Number.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

A little more family background would be good, father, grandfathers, aunts, uncles siblings.........


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Not going to give you my SS Number or my PIN Number.


Dang, I needed those when going to the bank today!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

cerezha said:


> Sqkcrk, I was looking for your credentials in your profile and find none.


We all know his name. We even used to be friends on Facebook, but he's blocked me. Maybe if you ask, he'll block you. If you didn't find anything, you didn't look hard enough.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Whatever containers are used for honey, I hope they are food grade! They should be. That would include all the extraction equipment, too. Not all plastics are food grade.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm going to stop arguing w/ you about this after my last comment.
> 
> I notice you are not honest enough to sign your name to your Posts.


OOoooooooooooooo. I've been served. "Honesty" has nothing to do with it. There is no business connection between us, and you have no need or right to know my name or location or anything else. I am security conscious - a lot can happen if someone with a wild bee gets it into their head to be nasty, or if someone acquisitive decides to go after valuable property.

How about this. I own a couple hundred pristine acres of Adirondack land. I have five college degrees. I'm a NAUI-certified SCUBA diver. I'm a millionaire. I have a few beehives and chickens. A room under my control is full of gems and precious metals. My daughter is NOT going to the Olympics, either the regular or the Special, neither to participate nor observe. NOW - maybe some of those statements are false. Does it matter which? None of it makes any difference, because these issues don't bear on the purity of any honey I may give away or later sell.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

You guys finished "measuring?" yet?


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## BPApiaries (Jan 30, 2012)

I am of the opinion that ethically allowing a customer to have the wrong idea about your product is just as bad as intentionally misleading them (sort of like a lie of omission). If your customers understand that the honey they are buying is from another beekeeper and not your own then there is no issue. Now if they think they are buying honey from hives behind your house (or wherever you keep your hives) and they are buying honey from a hundred miles away, then I think that would be a pretty big issue. 

Raw honey is a premium product that people buy to support local industry, to fight allergies to local plants, or for any number of other reasons that cause them to be willing to pay about twice as much for a jar of local honey as they would for a bottle of sue bee honey. 

Honestly, I would never market honey that I did not harvest myself under my label but would instead make a new label for it and sell it for less than my own sells for (since I would consider it worth less).


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

snl said:


> You guys finished "measuring?" yet?


:lpf:Thot the same thing 20 posts ago. (wasn't brave enough to post it!  )


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## buzz abbott (Mar 6, 2012)

BPApiaries said:


> Now if they think they are buying honey from hives behind your house (or wherever you keep your hives) and they are buying honey from a hundred miles away, then I think that would be a pretty big issue.


If my apiaries are 100 miles away, is it not still from my hives? Is it local 'cause it's from my hives 100 miles away?:scratch:


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Man, you'd think it's liquid gold at this point. I think as beeks we're looking at it too detailed. It's honey. People will eat it and like it or not like it. In the end, I would suspect most of them do not really care where it came from as long as it tastes good. As far as ethics go even, selling honey is probably at the bottom of the list as far as life changers for the consumer go. And being even more honest, if you truly care and I mean deep down get fired up about whether the honey or not you just ate came from 1 mile or 100 miles away you've got deeper issues to look into. Life too short to worry about that kind of stuff.


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## BPApiaries (Jan 30, 2012)

buzz abbott said:


> If my apiaries are 100 miles away, is it not still from my hives? Is it local 'cause it's from my hives 100 miles away?:scratch:


I said behind your house *OR* wherever you keep your hives . My point was that people shouldn't be under an impression they are getting something other than what they are getting. If it is from hives 100 miles away I would imagine marketing it as local would be a tad dishonest though.


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## DamSutt1986 (May 26, 2012)

The use of the word 'Local' is definitely a totally different argument that should be even more cautiously considered than re-selling honey, in my opinion. 

I wouldn't be surprised if very soon there are solid legal definitions, since buying 'local' is such a hit right now. I've read differing numbers, from 100-200 miles.

In my opinion, your name is on the line. Sell a good product no matter where it comes from and you will probably be successful. Marketing it as local (if it is not) is obviously unethical.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

BPApiaries said:


> I am of the opinion that ethically allowing a customer to have the wrong idea about your product is just as bad as intentionally misleading them (sort of like a lie of omission).


Well said. That's it exactly.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

snl said:


> You guys finished "measuring?" yet?


?? I don't get it. Maybe 'cos I'm not a guy .... :lpf:


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> My name is Mark Berninghausen.


 Hi Mark, very nice to meet you! I am Sergey Ryazantsev, working at University of California, Los Angeles. I have friends in your area, who is interested in honey. I did not figured out yet, how to put signature to the bottom, so I need to sign each message individually. Sergey


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

DamSutt1986 said:


> The use of the word 'Local' is definitely a totally different argument that should be even more cautiously considered than re-selling honey, in my opinion.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if very soon there are solid legal definitions, since buying 'local' is such a hit right now. I've read differing numbers, from 100-200 miles.


Just got back from our farmerrs market - selling honey!

The rule at this market is that " Local" means produced within 70 km - about 40 miles from the market.
Clear rules make life easy.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

KelpticFest said:


> ?? I don't get it. Maybe 'cos I'm not a guy .... :lpf:


What does sexual orientation have to do w/ this discussion?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> Hi Mark, very nice to meet you! I am Sergey Ryazantsev, working at University of California, Los Angeles. I have friends in your area, who is interested in honey. I did not figured out yet, how to put signature to the bottom, so I need to sign each message individually. Sergey


If you and your friends are from where your name suggests, then they are already customers of mine and have never questioned me on anything but price. How much is the honey? That sort of thing.

Are you aware of the PM (Private Message) function. Personal communication works best through PMs. In my opinion.

Nice to meet you too.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

max2 said:


> Just got back from our farmerrs market - selling honey!
> 
> The rule at this market is that " Local" means produced within 70 km - about 40 miles from the market.
> Clear rules make life easy.


When does "I want some honey." or "I need some honey." trump how close to one's home it came from.

Local is often over rated in my opinion. It's a short cut reason to buy something one thinks is uniquely beneficial to oneself because you and the honey live and were produced en loco perentise (I think I am using that term correctly whether spelled correctly or not).

The term "local" is, in some cases a deal breaker. In some cases it can't be local enough. While at a craft fair last year a potential customer asked me where the honey was produced, actually how close to her home town did I have my closest hives, because she wanted local honey to address allergys. She had heard that eating local honey helps w/ that sort of thing.

Turns out that 25 miles from her home wasn't close enough. Also turns out she has no allergys. I resisted asking her why she want something to address a problem she didn't have.

That is one reason I don't use the word local on my label or when telling people about my honey or my bees. The term "North Country" covers a large portion of the State, basically that portion just outside of the Adirondacks and extending to the edge of the State but not to the Southern edge.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> What does sexual orientation have to do w/ this discussion?


:lpf: Spelling help can be gotten at the local grammar school.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I would love to see your label. So what if it is copyrighted?


 This is my very personal label for all my honey. Sorry for delay, my Internet is down... Sergey


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Seriously? None of the legally required text? Do you sell your honey or give it as gifts?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Are you sure you read the About Me portion of the Profile?


 This is what I could see on my computer from your profile, not much...
Of coarse, I easily find (I am good with programming) all your private information on the Internet, but my point was (and is) your incognito at the *beesource* accusing other people in hiding their names... nothing personal.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Seriously? None of the legally required text? Do you sell your honey or give it as gifts?


 I am permitted to have only two beehives, so all my honey is distributed between friends, members of the family and neighbors. I do not sell honey, I just give it away as a gift. I advertize it as "100 and 2 percent" organic. Now, I am waiting for your label with poem (both sides, please).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'll send you my label, but not the poem. I'm not interested in that right now.

I took some photos, but when I saw them in my computer they don't show up well. Maybe tomorrow I can tryh them in natural light.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Local is often over rated in my opinion....


 It depends. My honey is VERY local and people respected this so much! But, I am not commercial person, I really do not care about all your reasons - they are from another planet to me... I agree that in such mass-production as yours, you could not claim that honey is "local" or 'organic"... it is honest decision from your side...


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I'll send you my label, but not the poem. I'm not interested in that right now.


Deal was with poem!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> Sqkcrk, could you post the example of your real label, preferably with poem? Then, we could see if it sufficient or not. Otherwise - it's empty words! In return - I could post my own label if you wish, but it's copyrighted. Sergey


Sergey, if you thought that when I Posted "I would love to see your Label." you thought I meant "Show me yours I will show you mine, including the back label w/ the poem on it.", you were mistaken. I did not say that and did not agree to do anything. You assumed something not in evidence. Which is not my fault.

I have tried to produce a photo of my 5lb jar label and my No Drip label, but the photos don't come out well. I don't know how to produce what I want to.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> Deal was with poem!


I don' know how you got that idea.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

cerezha said:


> It depends. My honey is VERY local and people respected this so much! But, I am not commercial person, I really do not care about all your reasons - they are from another planet to me... I agree that in such mass-production as yours, you could not claim that honey is "local" or 'organic"... it is honest decision from your side...


Perhaps you aren't aware that for anyone to call their honey organic there cannot be chemicals used on any plants that your bees are foraging on. A 3 mile foraging radius would calculate to around 10 square miles that you would have to certify as being chemical free. Were that not the case lots and lots of us could call their honey organic.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Yup, 'organic' is a legal term nowadays.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Moon said:


> Yeah I'm sure it's raw honey because typically when I get it it's completely crystallized into a solid chunk of honey I have to reheat then package into the jars I sell it


Just call it 'CowPoke Honey' and be done Moon....Your locals know that term, even if the readers here don't.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Perhaps you aren't aware that for anyone to call their honey organic there cannot be chemicals used on any plants that your bees are foraging on. A 3 mile foraging radius would calculate to around 10 square miles that you would have to certify as being chemical free. Were that not the case lots and lots of us could call their honey organic.


 Well, my friends are mostly scientists, they do appreciate the game of words... in this context, "organic" is derived from "organic chemistry" and actually means that there is "organic" stuff in the honey (including pesticides, which ARE organic compounds)... and extra 2% added for bees bodies and contamination... it is a joke. I apologize for confusion... In general, using word "organic" for "clean" produce is a big joke! FDA required 10 years for the land not to be exposed to pesticides in order to be qualified as "organic" - it is a joke, since half-life of DTT is 50 years. So, DTT which was spread in 1960 is in the soil now (50% from original amount). I am very cynical regarding FDA. Again, sorry for confusion. Sergey


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## JonD (Jul 14, 2012)

One definition of organic is any compound that contains carbon. All honey contains carbon, even if it is completely made from beet sugar. So if you want to go by scientific definitions, all food is organic.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

JonD said:


> One definition of organic is any compound that contains carbon. All honey contains carbon, even if it is completely made from beet sugar. So if you want to go by scientific definitions, all food is organic.


 Yes, this is why the word is not really appropriate to describe a "clean" healthy product(s). In scientific community, the word "organic" becomes literally bad word since its content so compromised by FDA and and others... I think, "natural" is more suitable to describe something, which is closer to nature, better than supermarket food. Sergey

PS I really do not think that honey harvested in the middle of very heavily populated area (LA) with a lot of cars, airplanes etc would be qualified as "organic" - it is a big joke. But I have to be more careful with my ESL - not everyone is ready for my russian-style jokes.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> This is what I could see on my computer from your profile, not much...
> Of coarse, I easily find (I am good with programming) all your private information on the Internet, but my point was (and is) your incognito at the *beesource* accusing other people in hiding their names... nothing personal.


I know you are new to beesource, so it is perfectly understandable that when looking to learn about me you didn't notice or understand what the "About Me" button was for or would tell you. Click on that and you will see what I Posted "About Me". I hope that is sufficient. Not much more I can do. There isn't enough space available for a full Biography. I think I am as open and honest as most on beesource. I would change my screen name if I could, but it is set.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> It depends. My honey is VERY local and people respected this so much! But, I am not commercial person, I really do not care about all your reasons - they are from another planet to me... I agree that in such mass-production as yours, you could not claim that honey is "local" or 'organic"... it is honest decision from your side...


I don't know what is being said here. I don't claim that my honey is local. My label says it is from the North Country, the region in which I live. If anyone takes that to mean it is Local, is that my doing?

Is there a particular reason you are so hot for my poem? I'm curious about that.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> - not everyone is ready for my russian-style jokes.


So that's where you are originally from? Cool.

So, being a scientist do youy have any idea how much lead is in Urban produced honey?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

View attachment 2769
Here is an example of my Label on a 1lb No Drip container.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

cerezha said:


> In general, using word "organic" for "clean" produce is a big joke!


Aside from confusions of fact and definitions - there doesn't seem to be any discipline regarding those who simply lie and label things organic that may be drowned in chemicals. When did you last hear about any big producer of any food ending up in court for lying?

If I ever become big enough to actually sell honey, I've been thinking of putting on the label something like: "My honey from MY hives. As natural as possible given that I don't live alone on the planet."


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> do youy have any idea how much lead is in Urban produced honey?



*_I_* don't. Do you? Has anyone done a systematic review of contaminants in urban and suburban honey? Would be very interesting.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

kelpticfest said:


> i've been thinking of putting on the label something like: "my honey from my hives. As natural as possible given that i don't live alone on the planet."


love it!


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## Rusty67 (Mar 9, 2010)

Why not just label the source and forget it. "Honey from Washington and Lincoln Counties" or wherever it's from. Just be positive about the source, not negative. Let the buyer decide if the counties listed are local enough for him or her. If the source is clear, the ownership of the hives in irrelevant.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> understand what the "About Me" button was for or would tell you. Click on that and you will see what I Posted "About Me".


 Yes, I press "about you" button - it is visible on the picture, I provided in my previous post. Also, as I stated before, I gather info about you withing 2 minutes from the Internet. It was not a problem. Sergey


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Might want to check into your "system" cause "it ain't blank!"


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> Also, as I stated before, I gather info about you withing 2 minutes from the Internet. It was not a problem. Sergey


So, did my background Check clear?


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## Honeypeach (Mar 15, 2012)

cerezha said:


> Yes, I press "about you" button - it is visible on the picture, I provided in my previous post. Also, as I stated before, I gather info about you withing 2 minutes from the Internet. It was not a problem. Sergey


Gee - what can you find about ME?? PM please - not on the public board!


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> View attachment 2769
> Here is an example of my Label on a 1lb No Drip container.


 Mark,
I do like your label. It is simple and does not claim anything questionable, like "raw", Grade A etc. I do not like plastic container, but it is a personal choice - I do know how much bad stuff is in the plastic. You are using "natural" - smart! Sergey


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't like plastic, but glass is awfully hard to squeeze. lol 

Give the consumer what they want. When I first saw a plastric invert container it was from Spain w/ Spanish honey in it. I said to myself, "If I could get my hands on that container I could sell some honey." and I have, even though I couldn't get the Spanish ontainer. The mold is owned by the company.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> So that's where you are originally from? Cool.


 Oooo
This is not a secret - I mention my Russian origin many time on this forum. You probably "hear" my heavy russian accent even over the internet. After 19 years in US, I am still Russian. All my Russian friends are crazy about bees - literally, every family have some beekeeper in the lineage. My friends consume not only my honey, but also the mead! Sergey



sqkcrk said:


> So, being a scientist do youy have any idea how much lead is in Urban produced honey?


 This is a very important issue. In general, in normal urban environment (mostly cars) I would not worry too much regarding lead. Lead is inorganic material and would not dissolve easily in the wax. So, it is opposite to pesticides, they love to be accumulated in the wax. Since leaded fuel is prohibited to the cars, the level of lead should be very low if there are no other sources of the lead around. In my situation, we have a small municipal airport with bunch of small aircraft, which are using leaded fuel. So, this is entirely different story. Right now, I am looking for the lab, who could do Pb analysis officially. I already submitted the inquiry to Federal Environmental Agency 6 mo ago - no respond yet. 
Speaking about environmental issues, it is not only the city, who is most polluted... In California, it is known that very pollutes area is a Central Valley. The major polluter - tracks, black carbon and fuel byproducts. There is a statistics, that in the central valley, risk of cancer is substantially higher in the areas with heavy truck's traffic. Sergey


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Barry said:


> Might want to check into your "system" cause "it ain't blank!"


Barry, did you see a screenshot I provided, it is just a few posts above? I also could not figure out how to attach my "signature" to the end of the message. Anyway,thank you for letting us to socialize at this forum! This is really valuable Internet resource! Sergey


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> ... glass is awfully hard to squeeze...


 Agree, but I just use a spoon... Sergey


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Can somebody PLEASE pull the plug on this thread???


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Like TV - nobody's *making* you follow it.

I for one like seeing those who enjoy misleading customers beat themselves deeper and deeper into the tar-baby.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

KelpticFest said:


> I for one like seeing those who enjoy misleading customers beat themselves deeper and deeper into the tar-baby.


What happened to you in your life to make you such a bitter, mean spirited and cybical a person as your vendetta against me makes you seem? Have you nothing poisitive and constructive, perhaps instructive, to add to the conversation?

You don't know me. You only know me by what you have read in this Thread. You don't do what I do, keep bees and sell honey for a living. So you have not had to make the decisions I have. Until you have and done it better, made those decisions better, I'd appreciate a little understanding if that isn't too much to ask. Otherwise, if you can't say anything nice, please keep it to yourself.

I don't appreciate your "special Olympics" comment. As far as you don't know my Daughter may well be in the Special Olympics. It appears you look down on those competitors. 

I hope you get up on the right side of the bed someday.

By the way, nice looking jewlery. My Dad was a geologist too, a marine geologist, vulcanologist and wrote papers on tsunamiis, for what that's worth.


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