# Need help with heavy mite load



## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Thermal treatment of varroa mites will kill the vast majority of the reproductive varroa mites which reside in the brood and capped brood comb. I am not sure what your daytime temperatures are but it may still be too warm to use Mite Away Quick Strips or Formic Pro which is a chemical treatment that kills reproductive varroa mites. OAV is a very good treatment for phoretic varroa mites. If your daytime temperatures are still too high for chemical treatment, try a Mighty Mite Killer. https://www.beehivethermalindustries.com/shop/

Here is another great place to get more information.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/275791919813444/


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Go the Honeybee Health Coalition’s web site and read they Varroa control manual. Pay particular attention to the available products section as it relates to the temperature ranges necessary for them to be effective. 

I always have concerns about treatments this late in the year for fear of it being too late to control mite /viral complex in winter bees as well as a concern for losing a queen this time of year.

Regardless, I would still try treating as I don’t think there is much to lose.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The OP is using 4 treatments at 4 day intervals which sounds good. My feeling that quitting after the fourth treatment is not a good policy if mite levels are still high. When you have the mites on the run keep hammering them; dont stop and allow them to catch their wind.

Could the difference in apparent effectiveness be caused by drift into the nuc or low level robbing due to lower defenses?


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## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

mhansman said:


> ... I do it every 4 days for 4 times.
> 
> I'm in California - still fairly warm and bees still bringing plenty pollen back to hive.
> 
> Thoughts?


Four times every four days is only thirteen days. Barely enough to expose the mites from worker brood, but too short for drone brood, which mites prefer. 

How big is the new hive? I'm in coastal San Mateo Co, have found that OAV series could only save hives in combination with splits/brood breaks. 

Local beekeepers swear by Apivar and formic acid products. Haven't been able to find forage-free 56 days for Apivar; and have ordered those Canadian FA pads from Mann Lake but they were obviously damaged: cracked and wet inner wrap.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

baybee said:


> Four times every four days is only thirteen days. Barely enough to expose the mites from worker brood, but too short for drone brood, which mites prefer.


In my area the bees stopped raising drones in July, as soon a the annual drought / dearth hits. I would think that in Cali, which gets hit with a drought every year as well, would have very few drone cells this time of year. My best guess is that the 4 treatments should have helped a lot. If not, drift is a major problem.


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

Four treatments four days apart doesn't even cover one brood cycle of a bee and is only 1 1/2 times the life cycle of a mite, two mite life cycles would be a minimum to expect any type of control. I would treat for at least six 4 day treatments and count the mite drop 24 hours after each treatment if you have the time. It's not that you are doing anything wrong you just need to do it longer to nail them.


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## mhansman (Apr 7, 2018)

Really appreciate this forum. 

The answer to how big is the hive - it's two medium boxes at this point. Still plenty of brood in it.

I did purchase some Apivar from Mann Lake today and will plan on trying it when it arrives. I like the idea of 6 cycles of the OAV as well, or testing after.

It'll be good to have a couple weapons in the tool box to get this hive through winter.


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## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

mhansman said:


> ...I did purchase some Apivar from Mann Lake today and will plan on trying it when it arrives.
> ...


I wish I could apply Apivar. Minimum application time for Apivar is 42 days, plus two extra weeks before supers are allowed back on -- this makes it eight weeks, meaning that supposedly any honey collected between today and, at best, Dec 11 will be contaminated with a synthetic acaricide. 

The eucalyptus globulus start blooming around Halloween, two weeks from now, which, depending on the weather, may mean nectar flow. There are lots of flower buds on local eucalipti.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Beeboy01 said:


> Four treatments four days apart doesn't even cover one brood cycle of a bee and is only 1 1/2 times the life cycle of a mite, two mite life cycles would be a minimum to expect any type of control. I would treat for at least six 4 day treatments and count the mite drop 24 hours after each treatment if you have the time. It's not that you are doing anything wrong you just need to do it longer to nail them.


Beeboy, you need to check your math. 4 treatments cover a total of 12 days. you would be treating on days 1,5,9 and 12. Worker bee larvae are only under the cappings for 10 days. Uncapped brood still gets exposed to OAV. Drone brood is a different story but this time of year most area in the US do not have much drone brood so it should not be much of an issue.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

dudelt said:


> Beeboy, you need to check your math. 4 treatments cover a total of 12 days. you would be treating on days 1,5,9 and 12. Worker bee larvae are only under the cappings for 10 days. Uncapped brood still gets exposed to OAV. Drone brood is a different story but this time of year most area in the US do not have much drone brood so it should not be much of an issue.


I have always understood that OAV is only effective on phoretic mites. Thus the 7x3 or 5x4 treatment schedule. I have also noticed a creeping in recommended dosing. First 7x3, then 5x4 now 4x4. Granted, it may be called for in some cases, but now it seems as it is being adopted as normal treatment schedules. J


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

This is the first I am hearing of a 4x4 OAV treatment which obviously does not cover the same number of days as the other two recommended schedules. However, the schedules themselves, while based on math, are still arbitrary. I would treat every 4-5 days until the mite drop from the last treatment was near 0 if my hive was heavily infested. Or, treat once to knock down the phoretic mites and go with the Apivar strips. I don't understand the logic of sacrificing the bees to mites in order to get a fall honey crop. J, if the OAV is not getting the job done, go with something that will, like Apivar. Then resume OAV as a control treatment. Unless you are TF and doing your part to "build a better bee", there is no reason for a hive to die from mites with the tools we have at our disposal.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think I commented that the 4 treatments every 4 days was good. I guess I was thinking of the 4 day interval part but not the lack of sufficient time to cover the whole term of capping, esp with drone brood. I believe I did say to continue treatments till no more mites fall. I am not fixated on exactly 5 days spacing and often vary from four to five days depending on weather and other interference. I really kick myself for losing ground if I have gaps of more than 5 days though.

If you have a lot of surrounding bees that have high mite loads, you have to remember that in drift from them rather nullifies the exposure timing that only applies to the bees continually exposed to your timing controls.

I am pretty fortunate in this regard by being quite isolated from other bees.


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

Dudeit, "you need to check your math. 4 treatments cover a total of 12 days. you would be treating on days 1,5,9 and 12. Worker bee larvae are only under the cappings for 10 days. Uncapped brood still gets exposed to OAV. Drone brood is a different story but this time of year most area in the US do not have much drone brood so it should not be much of an issue."
I was referring to how long the OAV is effective in a hive which from my experience is four days. After treatment #4 at day 12 the OAV will still kill mites for four days which is a 16 day treatment. I ended up using a 4 day, four treatment plan on one hive that had a major infestation but found that the hive needed two more treatments to reduce the 24 hour mite drop to an acceptable level.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Beeboy, Thanks for the clarification. One of the issues with written words is that they can often be misunderstood. I have used the every 4th day treatment a couple of times due to scheduling problems and found it to work well. 

MHansman, one of the issues I see here on the forum is the level of reinfestation talked about in California, especially in the bay area. Retreatment is often needed regardless of the treatment used and staying on top of the problem is really hard. You treat and see thousands of dead mites and 2 weeks later your numbers are still extremely high. I am convinced that the "organic" lifestyle seen in the area encourages irresponsible treatment free beekeeping and the numbers of treatment free beeks in the area are causing issues for others. FYI, not all treatment free beeks are irresponsible. A lot are VERY responsible and really know what they are doing! I am fortunate, I don't have the mite pressures seen in other locations in my area.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Can someone point me to a study that confirms that OAV is effective on mites in uncapped cells? This is the first I have heard this is such an affirmative way. Perhaps it is my misunderstanding of terms. I was taught that OAV is only effective on phoretic mites. My understanding of the term "phoretic" is that the mite is being transported by the host. In my mind this means a hatched adult bee, not an egg or larvae. Have I misunderstood this for my whole 3 years in beekeeping? J


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

I would NOT use the Apivar.

I'm also in Santa Cruz and we're about to hit a big bloom with the Eucalyptus that will bloom in the next couple of weeks. Anything collected from the bees for the next 8 weeks will be contaminated. I think you made the right choice by choosing OAV and I wouldn't give up on it yet.

I once noticed my mite drops were nearly zero after an OAV treatment. I replaced my OA with a higher grade than just "wood bleach" and my mite counts were HUGE! I would first, buy a higher or newer grade of OA. I would also stick to your treatment plan, treating both hives at the same time and at night. This will make sure to treat all the bees in the hive as you're missing all those on the foragers during the day. 4 treatments 4 days apart should definitely knock them way down.

Also make sure you have a mite board or some way of seeing the drop each treatment. I've even seen people slide white political sign board, cut to size, in through a solid bottom board after each treatment to see what falls on it for the next treatment 4 days later.

Remember our climate is different than most. We're about to head into the best time of year for beekeeping while others are putting their hives away for winter.


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

I'm targeting the mother or breeder female mite with the shorter treatments that is only phoretic for a short time as she moves from brood cell to brood cell. Mites either go directly onto the worker bee which is their phoretic phase and stay active for weeks on the bees or move to another brood cell within about 30 hours and repeat the breeding cycle, in other words short term phoretic. By treating every 4 days the OAV crystal levels are increase in the hive and interrupts the breeder mite cycle as well as knocking down the rest of the phoretic mites present on the bees. It's an idea I've been working on and has worked well on a heavily infested hive that I experimented on this year. 
i don't know of any studies that show that OAV is effective on the mites present in uncapped brood cells, from what I understand the breeder female crawls into the uncapped brood cell and hides at the bottom till the cell gets capped then it lays a male egg followed up by females eggs. There not much chance of a breeder mite getting exposed to OAV once it's in the brood cell. Exposing them to OAV when they move from brood cell to brood cell is the obvious solution to stopping the breeders and shorter times between treatments seem to have a lot of potential in doing this. I'll get down off the soap box, just don't like mites or small hive beetles.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

To add to what Beeboy said, mites hide under the jelly after they enter the cell. They have a breathing tube that allows them to do so. I would assume this would take them out of reach of OAV.

Alex


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Beeboy01: yes, what you just said is how I understand the mite cycle and OAV, but earlier you stated that "Uncapped brood still gets exposed to OAV" and I thought you took that into account with your 4x4 schedule which actually covers 13 days. J


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

I believe by saying "uncapped brood still gets exposed to OAV" I was referring to the fact that the breeder female mites are moving into the uncapped brood which I'll admit is a bit misleading and was my bad. My post #14 clarified the math on a 4 x 4 treatment being effective for 16 days instead of 13.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Fivej said:


> Can someone point me to a study that confirms that OAV is effective on mites in uncapped cells? This is the first I have heard this is such an affirmative way. Perhaps it is my misunderstanding of terms. I was taught that OAV is only effective on phoretic mites. My understanding of the term "phoretic" is that the mite is being transported by the host. In my mind this means a hatched adult bee, not an egg or larvae. Have I misunderstood this for my whole 3 years in beekeeping? J


I do not believe there is a study that looks at mites in uncapped cells. However, The term "phoretic" as it relates to varroa has been misapplied and in beekeeping, the general usage to date means any mite that is not under the cappings. The general belief is that OA kills the mites by puncturing the pads in the feet of the mites. I still wait to see proof this is correct but for this reply, I will assume it is true. OA will kill varroa in uncapped cells if and only if it makes it to the pads of the mites in the cells in a manner that will kill it. If not, they will live for another day. But the same is true for mites crawling around on the bees themselves. If the OA does not get on the pads, they too get to live another day. We know it does not make it to every mite's pads because it never kills 100% of the "phoretic" mites in a single treatment.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

So, if we can be reasonably confident that OAV only kills phoretic mites, and phoretic means the mite is taking a ride on a bee, the 4x4 schedule would miss a lot of mites unless I am missing something. The 7x3 and the 5x4 schedule theoretically has the opportunity to kill them all as I see it, but the 4x4 doesn't. J


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Only you can determine if it has the ability to kill them all and it depends on what you believe. The 4x4 treatments cover 13 days total with the first treatment on day 1 and the last treatment on day 13. Thus, any mites that were in worker cells that were capped just before the treatment will get treated 2 days after the bee hatches as an adult bee with the last treatment. If the mite went into a drone cell, the last treatment in a 4x4 schedule will happen 2 day before that bee hatches. If you assume that the OA continues to work for 3 days after the treatment, that mite will also get exposed to the OA. So you are still covered. 

I prefer to look at it this way. You can NEVER kill every mite in the colony. Even if you could, there is drift from other colonies so you will eventually get reinfested. My job is to keep the mites in check, not to kill them all. I refuse to worry about the few that remain after treatment. If I can kill 90% of the mites in the hive, I have great progress in keeping the hive alive and healthy. When you go to war against an invading army, you don't have to kill all of the soldiers, only enough to end the war.


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## OC_Bees (Jul 4, 2014)

You can also drop Formic Pro on that treats through capped brood just pull any feeders off during the 10 days


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Oh well you could use formic anything and still end up queenless if you are not careful besides having to take out a mortgage to pay for commercial treatments. With OAV I am almost treatment free as it costs only about 2 to 3 cents a treatment and also about where it has to be to kill mites Charles Linder did tests on live mites and found putting crystals on their feet killed them and also putting crystals anywhere on their body also kills them. So dont know how it does it as long as it does and carries on doing I am happy cause treating is a breeze.
Johno


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## mhansman (Apr 7, 2018)

This ended up being a very educational post for me, and it was nice to meet another local beekeeper through it.

I ended up doing OAV treatment every 4 days, 6 treatments. Whereas previously I was doing sugar rolls, I decided to do an alcohol wash this time after the treatment was done. My count was 4 per 100 - much, much better. 

One observation with the alcohol wash (learned on youtube) - the original pour off of alcohol only had 1 mite in it. I rinsed the bees with water 3 times and found 7 more mites. I actually (pretty much) counted the bees afterwards - 200 bees - to make sure my math would be right.

I'll let them go from here and count 'em again in about a month to see where they are.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

4x4 treatments leaves potentially a smaller time period of exposure of the mites from the last of the drone brood. I think the nominal 24 day drone emergence figure can vary a day or so either way from 24 days.

After going to the trouble to do a series of treatments it seems to me a lack closure to avoid doing one more. I check the mite drop on a few hives with stickies and if there is still a mite drop, do another. I am not locked into any certain number as being the maximum number for a series.

I guess dudelt and I will just have to agree to disagree!


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## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

mhansman said:


> ...I ended up doing OAV treatment every 4 days, 6 treatments.
> ...


Would be interesting to see what happens in a month. I have found that, with brood present and whatever the schedule, OAV is only helpful in preventing explosive, potentially deadly proliferation of mites by driving counts to some low but stable numbers. I regularly use SBB trays to see the dynamics of mite drops.

I'm just north of you, the bees have been foraging actively for the last month or so. This week I discovered that the SBB trays are covered with small transparent wax flakes, which probably means they are drawing new comb, which also means more brood and more mites.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

mhansman said:


> This ended up being a very educational post for me, and it was nice to meet another local beekeeper through it.
> 
> I ended up doing OAV treatment every 4 days, 6 treatments. Whereas previously I was doing sugar rolls, I decided to do an alcohol wash this time after the treatment was done. My count was 4 per 100 - much, much better.
> 
> ...


Glad you went with the 4x6 OAV treatment instead of the chemicals. I just finished my round of treatment and have been observing the mite drop with my screened bottom boards. I maybe see one mite on the board after a week after treatment. It definitely works! I'm going to try some "maintenance" treatments through the spring to see if I can keep them low instead of letting them build of before knocking them down.

The bloom is also on! Another reason I'm glad you didn't go chemical so you can get some honey this year. My girls are already packing in the nectar and with this string of nice weather, after the storms, they should be filling up he supers rather quickly! Last year, my strongest hive could pack a medium in a week!


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

mhansman, I would be very interested as to what your mite counts are now. You are in a warm enough latitude that your bees are likely still raising brood. This can open the door for foundress or reproductive varroa mites to get a foot hold and can increase their numbers surprisingly fast. Keep a close eye on the mite numbers. Even when treating with the Mighty Mite Killer treatments are usually needed about every 3 to 4 months. I will be treating mine again in late February - early March just as the hives are pushing hard to brood up. I have observed substantial brood production stimulation each time I have conducted thermal varroa mite treatments which really make splits plentiful and easier.


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## mhansman (Apr 7, 2018)

Thanks - I'll let you know. I've had time the past couple days but it's been too cold for me to want to open the hives.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

dudelt said:


> I prefer to look at it this way. You can NEVER kill every mite in the colony. Even if you could, there is drift from other colonies so you will eventually get reinfested. My job is to keep the mites in check, not to kill them all. I refuse to worry about the few that remain after treatment. If I can kill 90% of the mites in the hive, I have great progress in keeping the hive alive and healthy.


I think that's the only sensible way to approach the Varroa problem - hit them as hard as possible but don't even think about trying to kill every last mite - because it's pointless. Although I knew well-enough that re-infestation occurs, I was surprised and shocked to learn recently just how serious the numbers can be, especially if there's a 'mite bomb' within range.

Dosing for Varroa is no different than bailing-out a leaky boat - it's an endless task just as long as those leaks remain unplugged - but an essential job if you're to prevent the boat from sinking.
LJ


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