# WHY???



## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Probably the reason is mostly historic. 

The reason is likely associated with water content and quality. Honey is heavier than water, so honey with a high water content (prone to spoil) will weigh less in the same volume than honey with a low content of water.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

But isn't a quart still a quart??


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A pint's a pound the world around, unless it's honey.







Then it's a pound and a half.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

I think it's just tradition. In the old days, everything was priced and sold by the pound- coffee, flour, tea, cheese, honey, etc. Or, bring your own container. And weigh it.


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

Do you really want to sell by volume where adulterators could add water to honey? Weight is a much better measure of honey than volume as "purer" honey weighs more.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

Warrior: my honey is out the gate, when and if I sell, so no chance of tampering.
But in filling a jar to the top you leave little room for adding anything else. Unless some is poured off. Then the viscosity of the honey would change showing the tampered product as being more 'fluid'. Doesn't the weight of honey also change as to the type, ie; dark as compaired to light. Isn't the density of the product also different acording to the bottleing (packing) process, Raw compaired to "pasturized"?
Is there some standard??  
.

[ December 13, 2005, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: SilverFox ]


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Selling it by the pound is standard, not law. If you want to sell it by volume, go ahead. I sell bears by weight, mason jars by volume. Both work for me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Unfortunately, I think some states require you to specify the weight. I don't know why. If you say it's a quart of honey and it IS a quart of honey, that seems perfectly honest to me. But you may actually be required to put the weight on it.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Talk to a dairyman, and he'll tell you how many
pounds of milk his cows produce. Ask him to tell
you how many gallons that is, and he'll squint at
you and say "I dunno - you aren't from around
here, are you?"

But go to the store, and you find the milk is sold
at retail by volume (gallons, half-gallons, quarts).

The best conversion I know mixes jars and bags:
"How many lids in a zip-lock sandwich bag?"

Think about it.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

ROFL  Love it. AHHHHHH the 60's & 70's.


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

Didn't that depend on which side of the city you lived?


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

does here...


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## MikeGillmore (Nov 15, 2005)

This topic just came up at out last beekeepers meeting. We had a speaker come in and talk about the use of honey in foods going back to the Renaissance Period. Until more modern times no one ever heated their honey to halt or reverse crystalization. So throughout history most honey was bartered, bought or sold as crystalized solid honey, traded by "weight". This tradition just carried over into our modern era.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<no one ever heated their honey to halt or reverse crystalization>>

My understanding is that in much of the world, they still don't.

<<Talk to a dairyman, and he'll tell you how many
pounds of milk his cows produce. Ask him to tell
you how many gallons that is, and he'll squint at
you and say "I dunno - you aren't from around
here, are you?">>

My dad can answer that without missing a beat Ask him how much they eat, and he can give you "as-fed" and dry matter pounds adjusted for how much he cleaned out of the manger that morning.

<<"How many lids in a zip-lock sandwich bag?">>

I've thought about it, I've Googled it, and I'm stumped. Did I need to be around for the 60s and 70s to get it? Is it innapropriate for polite company?


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

dcross ask:
I've thought about it, I've Googled it, and I'm stumped. Did I need to be around for the 60s and 70s to get it? Is it innapropriate for polite company? 

tecumseh muses:
yes and no or maybe that is no and no... oh nevermind..


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## clintonbemrose (Oct 23, 2001)

It was done that way when I started in 1964.
I suspect it had something to do with the barter system.
Clint


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>Did I need to be around for the 60s and 70s to get it?

The old saying about the 60's goes something like if you remember the 60's you weren't part of the 60's, so even having been around durig that time period, it's still possible not to get it. 

I wonder if Cheech and Chong were beekeepers.....


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

60's and 70's???? How about last night....Oh boy, did I just say that? Note to self, delete this message.....Man, I'm out of doritos.....and those seeds.....just what I need another hole in my shirt.....
Just glad the cops never looked in that beehive I moved last night.....beehives are groovy man...Nobody ever looks in there......yeah, make sure I delete this message.........Oh, man, look at my eyes


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> The best conversion I know mixes jars and bags:
> "How many lids in a zip-lock sandwich bag?"


Don't forget time... 
How many years in the lid in Texas?


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

DCross, they aren't talking about moonshine. It wasn't sold by the lid and wasn't packed in ziplock bags. 

And you couldn't get a nickel bag of mountain dew either.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

You guys must quit working bees at 4:20.....


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

What were we talking about?


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> Dave Verville
> Fremont, NH USA


That's weird. I could have sworn that Dave ain't here.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

[And you couldn't get a nickel bag of mountain dew either.]

Can't get a nickle bag of anything anymore me thinks! (as he sits here chewing some delicious honey made venison jerky from NC)

{Dave ain't here}

I can hear the collective huh from everyone under 40! Proves MB knew what a nickel bag was!

Dave-Where's your web site? Did you move? I just bought Vanns Maxant Chain uncapper (and just about everything else) and wanted to see your Pillow Block in action???!

[ December 14, 2005, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Can't get a nickle bag of anything anymore me thinks!

They just cost a whole lot more now... Or so I've been told.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Nickle bag is a nickle bag. Just a whole lot less in it.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

And I must of been ripped off a few times, er, I mean my buddies....I heard them say dime bag many times but I never heard about a nickel bag. So they say.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

http://www.zigzag.com/


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Why is honey sold by the weight instead of by the volume?

Honey is considered a food, not a liquid. Foods are sold by weight. Liquids and beverages are sold by volume.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

The United States Food and Drug Administration requires that honey labeling bee done by weight. I tried to get the quote from their labeling handbook but it costs $295.00 so if you need it you can purchase it yourself.

Misbranding or mislabeling of any article of food or beverage in U.S. commerce is a "prohibited act," punishable by fine or imprisonment or both, pursuant to the federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act, 21 U.S.C. §331 et. seq. Other penalties or enforcement methods include debarment of responsible persons or companies and injunctions. Mislabeled products are subject to detention, seizure and import refusal. 

I'm with BjornBee. It wasd always a dime bag in L. A.

Hawk


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

well pilgrim you see what happens when ya' close the gator (tailgater) bar and all the old men got no where to acquire a drink?


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>"How many lids in a zip-lock sandwich bag?"

I got to thinking... zip-lock.. zip-lock.. when DID those come along? I don't remember them. So I put that in my google pipe and smoked it and came up with Glad Corporation, 1964. Go figure. Turns out, the original "traditional" baggie was developed by Mobile Oil Company in 1958.

>The United States Food and Drug Administration requires that honey labeling bee done by weight.

So much for my "Cup-o-Honey" marketing scheme..

>see what happens when ya' close the gator

The desire to bloviate will not be denied I guess. If you got cats, you need a cat box or they'll be relieving themselves all over the house. We were prety well paper-trained but now..


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

This is purely speculation, but is honey sold by weight because it looks like more? Which sounds bigger: a 8 (fluid) ounce honeybear or a 12 ounce honeybear? I've seen corn syrup sold (retail) by the fluid ounce so why not honey?


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

Shoulda called this topic "Why and the Past Lives Of Beekeepers"  Or "Lids and Weights"  
Can tell it is the 'down' time of the year. 

[ December 15, 2005, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: SilverFox ]


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

Dave-Where's your web site? Did you move? I just bought Vanns Maxant Chain uncapper (and just about everything else) and wanted to see your Pillow Block in action???!
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http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b221/DaveNH/MVC-003F.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b221/DaveNH/MVC-004F.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b221/DaveNH/MVC-005F.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b221/DaveNH/MVC-007F.jpg


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

> Honey is considered a food, not a liquid. Foods are sold by weight.


And then we have a loaf of bread! 

[ December 15, 2005, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: The Honey House ]


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks Dave!!


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

Okay, honey is considered food; Why then is soup sold by fluid oz?? And sauces??


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

In my refrigerator is a jar of jalapenos, a jar of hot chilli peppers, and a jar of sweet peicles. Each of those have their size listed in fluid ounces (and ml). A jar of mustard and a bottle of ketchup in my refrigerators have their size listed in pounds (and g). The mysteries of the universe?!


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

a jar of sweet peicles??? where did that come from? I only have sweet pickles in my refrigerator.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Dick, harrassing yourself for misspelling is unproductive, argumentative, and unnecessary. Let someone else do it for you!

George-


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

Be nice to Dick, he might have been working on his "lid". 

[ December 15, 2005, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: SilverFox ]


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Hmm,
All of my salad dressings and hot sauces are sold by liquid volume. But all the various soups, stews, pasta sauces and the like are measured in weights. 

This remindes me: not too many years ago, there was a debate on wheither schools should get to count salsa as a "food" rather than as a "condiment." A lot of people didn't like the idea, thinking that it was a move to de-Americanize our culture, particularly in areas of high Hispanic concentrations. Recently, I've become aware how much salsa I eat. Now, I don't eat tomatoes or onions. I'm not a vegitable-eater, really. Salsa does give me an oportunity to consume, how ever slight amounts, some variations in my diet. Seems like we would want kids to do the same. 
Just ponderings

Waya


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## Blue.eyed.Wolf (Oct 3, 2005)

>how many lids in a zip lock sandwich bag.

One four-finger $30. lid per baggie, any more and it would leak out in your sock. By the time zip-lock baggies were in use,'77/78 school year, the industry had switched from the finger method to the ounce method (weight) to match the honey industry, (its main buyer aparently). 

er ..um, I read this in an article ...wrighten by St. Stadanko, of the F.B.I.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<there was a debate on wheither schools should get to count salsa as a "food" rather than as a "condiment." >>

I think they were trying to get it classified as a vegetable in school lunch programs, instead of a condiment like ketchup. Which the Reagan administration tried to get classified as a vegetable also.

<<One four-finger $30. lid per baggie>>

So is "lid" slang for cash or the product? I'm dense about all the formalities of the trade, it's one of the reasons my involvement was brief. That and the time I slipped and fell at work, and it dawned on me that if I filled out an accident report for my sore butt, I would have an appointment with a little cup


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Salsa as a food? That would be in the Red food group. We already gots catsup. Here in Maine we try to eat balanced meals containing foods from all 3 food groups: White, Brown, and Red.

>So is "lid" slang for cash or the product?

An ounce, or 3/4 of an ounce, depending on how reputable the source, and the price varied.. or so I've been told.

[ December 16, 2005, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: George Fergusson ]


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Ahh, around here an ounce is a "z".


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

You guys really miss those bees, don't you.

Hawk


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Well, here we are, rumaging through our friges comparing the measurement of volume for different condiments and trying to solve the mysteries of the universe within the dim curtilage of the refrigerator light. In the days of the nickle bag we would have thought this pretty profound. 

Being older and wiser now I think we better all hope for an early spring!

[ December 18, 2005, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Combining some things like smoking bees, and smoking roaches, come natural to some...so I am told. In the beeyard I have smoked many roaches. Its not like in beekeeping your not occasionally going to get buzzed.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>rumaging through our friges

We did that, looking for munchies.

>Combining some things like smoking bees, and smoking roaches, come natural to some..

So what do we call our oxalic acid evaporators? Crack pipes of course. Shoulda seen that coming. When I was up at the local hardware store buying brass pipe fittings, the kid running the cash register asked "Whatcha building, a bong?" "No" I replied, "I'm a beekeeper. I'm building a crack pipe." "Oh sure..."


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

Hello: Officer Stastanko----


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## GeeBeeNC (Aug 23, 2005)

A lid is a measure of volume using a mason jar ring and lid. It also can be used to measure an ounce in the same way that as MB tells us a pint is a pound. At least that's the way it was around 1970.


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