# Going to give grafting a go tomorrow...



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Picture makes it look like deceptively few bees are in there, both of the long walls are covered in bees in a 3-4 deep bee cushion.  Grafting tomorrow morning. I may give them another couple frames of nurse bees before I graft if I think they look light.

Should be fun if nothing else!


----------



## wpoley (Oct 20, 2013)

Film it for us newbees.Please


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Weather is favorable right now, going to go graft now actually. I am a first timer myself. So no good info from me in a video except maybe what not to do.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Well... I don't think the chinese grafting tool is for me... I think I'd be better off with a paper clip. I have no issue with finding the right age larva. And ones that are slightly bigger are easy. But the plunger does not slide down the piece correctly always. And no backbone in the thin "horn" piece. I really needed something stiff. Wish I would have brough a paper clip with me.


----------



## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I used a Chinese grafting tool and it worked great. The horn piece slides down the wall and curves under the larva.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

WBVC said:


> I used a Chinese grafting tool and it worked great. The horn piece slides down the wall and curves under the larva.


Going to regraft tomorrow with my paper clip tools I just made. I got the chinese one under the larva just fine, but when I got the youngest larva pushing them off didn't work well. The horn piece just seemed too flimsy and frustrating... Maybe my ebay chinese grafting tools are just garbage? I doubt they are actually horn, pretty sure they're plastic. 

Gonna give the paper clip a shot and if that doesn't work just put a frame with eggs and let them raise some like that.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Well... Went and checked after 24 hours with new paperclip tools in tow expecting to regraft. 24 hour take looked to be at least 6 and maybe 8. All with 1/8"+ of royal jelly visible from side of the cups when I blew the bees out of the way. I really only want 3-4 queens so this might work out about right. Will they tend to reject larva grafted that were too old?


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

It's hard to define why they reject when they do. About the Chinese tools - you have to get several to be insured of getting a good one. Still they are probably the most popular style - i like the JZBZs tool or the stainless German tool 2nd. Practice makes a big difference.


----------



## Dunkel (Jun 12, 2009)

My wife really liked the jzbz tool over the Chinese tool. I hate them all and grafting as a whole


----------



## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Check out David LaFerney's post on grafting. Good tips.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

David LaFerney said:


> It's hard to define why they reject when they do. About the Chinese tools - you have to get several to be insured of getting a good one. Still they are probably the most popular style - i like the JZBZs tool or the stainless German tool 2nd. Practice makes a big difference.


I have ten of them and only tried a couple. Weather was right and it was supposed to rain today so we kind of did it off the cuff. And only grafting 16 wasn't really much practice.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

philip.devos said:


> Check out David LaFerney's post on grafting. Good tips.


Between his post and Michael Palmer's YouTube videos I have put lots of hours in research.


----------



## capathome (Sep 20, 2011)

I found that a very fine artist paintbrush to be my favorite. Also hated the chinese tool. Maybe didn't get a good one out of the 6 I bought.

capathome


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I tossing around the idea of putting them on top of my big hive with queen excluder. The calendar I am using says to pull cells to nucs on day 11 after grafting. Always thought that was day 10?


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> Between his post and Michael Palmer's YouTube videos I have put lots of hours in research.


Same here.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Just got another set of chinese tools in the mail and the ends feel entirely different and the plunger is tight against the horn piece which actually has some stiffness. Might have to try it again with one of these.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

jwcarlson said:


> I have ten of them and only tried a couple. Weather was right and it was supposed to rain today so we kind of did it off the cuff. And only grafting 16 wasn't really much practice.


Just plan to do it again when these cells are ready to move out. And then again...


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

David LaFerney said:


> Just plan to do it again when these cells are ready to move out. And then again...


Also realizing that my cell builder is not nearly strong enough. I have no clue where all the bees went... must have drifted back over into the mother hive. I was just reading a Randy Oliver write-up where he says to shake the entire colony into your cell builder leaving the queen and whatever frame she is on plus all of the older bees to sort themselves out. I have more bee resources in top bar hives at the moment. I might set up a cell builder using those this weekend and abandon existing cells depending on what they look like once capped (Thursday). Even if I only have a couple decent looking cells (or none, never know), that would be two more potential queens than I currently have and enable me to do a couple of splits without waiting for the bees to raise their own.

I wish I'd have been thinking farther ahead and set up a nuc with capped brood 10 days ago, I could have made an overflowing 5-frame deep without ever having to shake a frame. 
It's all a learning process and it's enjoyable. Gives me more tinkering to do and more things to think about.


----------



## Pinchecharlie (May 14, 2014)

I think it's awsome your going for it! Sounds fun and no more buying queens! Well done ! Keep us posted with your results!


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I think it's awsome your going for it! Sounds fun and no more buying queens! Well done ! Keep us posted with your results!


I will. I think once the weather warms up again I'm going to add a couple frames of capped brood and let them emerge in the cell starter because what I have is not nearly strong enough. I kind of just decided to do it last weekend. Wish I'd have put more thought behind it. But the ball is rolling now.


----------



## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

My first graft a few weeks ago. I was amazed how many cells were built despite the builder being weaker than when I made it up.

This time I did things a bit differently. 

I shut the bees in a ventilated builder.
I tried misting the cells with distiller water prior to grafting.

This is what I found from that.

I found it harder to remove the larvae into misted cell cups.
I found the bees in the started flew out en masse when I opened it to put in the graft frame!

And...I way less acceptance than the first time. Live and learn


----------



## mtndewluvr (Oct 28, 2012)

Set up a well ventilated 5-frame starter/finisher (actually, a swarm moved into it 4 weeks ago, so I moved out the queen and added more nurse bees) 2 days ago and decided to try grafting with larvae from a prolific swarm queen captured earlier this year. I only have the German tool and it worked ok. I peeked at them after day 1 and it appears at least a few will take out of the 18. Received a couple of breeder queens from Lauri Miller yesterday and they are busy getting released into their new home. Hoping they will be ready with some new larvae in 9 more days. If not, I'll do another practice run and keep adding frames of capped brood, protein and sugar water to keep the starter/finisher chugging right along.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Checked today and they have 5 capped. They are so small how small is too small? I am leaning towards giving them a shot "just because". And filling my cell builder with emerging brood for another go here in a few days.

I'm guessing they are maybe a half inch past the end of the cell cup. I could see the butts of the queens :/


----------



## Redneck (Oct 2, 2005)

Two questions that you have ask I do not believe were answered. One about using older larva--- if the larva is older than 24 hours the queen may be of poor quality. The larva should be no larger than an egg. When the egg hatches it lays down on its side in the form of a {c}. Some grafters actually pull an egg out and place it on the frame so it can be compared with the size of larva. Pick the larva up and lay it in the cell on the same side as you picked it up. The larva breathes from its side, so if you lay turn it over it cannot breathe, so it will die. Keep a wet towel over the grafted and un-grafted larva. They will dry out quickly and die. One good thing about the Chinese tool is it picks up some of the royal jelly with the larva.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I do know how old of larva to use and how small they are. My dad cannot even see them if on the grafting tool inches in front of his face. From arms length they just look like wet cell bottoms. I can see them up close, but just got a $8 amazon magnifier/lighted visor which will help for sure. 

Can't wait to get another swing at it. I have a JZBZ tool to try and some Chinese tools that feel loads better than what I had before.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

jwcarlson said:


> Checked today and they have 5 capped. They are so small how small is too small? I am leaning towards giving them a shot "just because". And filling my cell builder with emerging brood for another go here in a few days.
> 
> I'm guessing they are maybe a half inch past the end of the cell cup. I could see the butts of the queens :/


Give them a try - nothing much to lose, and they might surprise you. It takes a REALLY strong cell builder to build big cells in any number. 

Just keep at at - practice will make you improve quickly. 

As soon as you put those cells in mating nucs graft again, when those are ready make a 2nd set of mating nucs for them and graft again. By the time your 3rd set of grafts are ready to place in nucs your first set of queens will be ready to use - thus freeing up their mating nucs. Even if you only run 6-8 nucs total you will get practice at the whole process on a 10 day cycle. That's how you learn. Keep in small an manageable for a while.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

David LaFerney said:


> Give them a try - nothing much to lose, and they might surprise you. It takes a REALLY strong cell builder to build big cells in any number.
> 
> Just keep at at - practice will make you improve quickly.
> 
> As soon as you put those cells in mating nucs graft again, when those are ready make a 2nd set of mating nucs for them and graft again. By the time your 3rd set of grafts are ready to place in nucs your first set of queens will be ready to use - thus freeing up their mating nucs. Even if you only run 6-8 nucs total you will get practice at the whole process on a 10 day cycle. That's how you learn. Keep in small an manageable for a while.


I just need bees now, need queens to make the bees, etc. Might be a year early as far as resources go.

Having fun though!


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

I agree with Dave. When I have had a surplus I have opened cells with a large variation in size to find that the queens inside to be basically identical in size. I think having a surplus of royal jelly is more important than the physical size of the cell. Just because all the royal jelly was eaten doesn't necessarily mean the queen will be a poor performer. There is an ideal that everyone is shooting for, but falling short of the mark isn't necessarily a total failure.


----------



## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

When I first started raising my own queens, I was surprised at how many bees it took to raise them.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I knew once opened on day one after graft that a lot of bees must have drifted back. Ended up with maybe a third of what was in there when I shook them. Going to add emerging brood as much as I can donate this time and get it strong.


----------



## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

When I first started raising queens I also found that returning foraging bees were a concern. They are a bigger concern for your mating nucs. Now I make them up a day ahead and try to always have open brood in the frames that I use to make up the nucs. Then I check before moving cells to see if any need additional bees. Several times I went to check on queen cell hatching to find unhatched cells in nucs with no other bees. One time I moved the unhatched cell to another nuc that had a cell that didn't hatch and the one that had spent a day or so in an empty hive did hatch. I was pretty surprised at that.

Now I use an existing hive for a cell builder. Cloake Board or Michael Palmer's cell builder instructions both work extremely well. Mating nucs still need to be checked.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Well... 
I don't really know exactly what to make of this. I was out in the yard where my cell builder is after work. Emerging day was supposed to be Thursday. I decided since I caught a swarm and made two splits that I didn't need any of these tiny cells so I was going to leave the two best looking and just see what happened. First I notice that they built a palm sized patch of comb off what I thought was the best looking cell. Then in those cells I notice eggs. In bottom of cells, one cell has two eggs. Great, I think... One of the workers decided to start laying. Then I notice the cell they built off of is open on the end... And the cell next to it is opened but also chewed from the side. Hmmm. The cell next to it has the end actively being chewed open. Wild... So I pull the bee coming out of that cell out, it looks lifeless and is a worker as best I can tell. Pinched her head and tossed her. These eggs are intriging me so I pull the next comb and find a couple eggs scattered, but centered in their cells. 

And then I see her.... Walking around like she owns the place looking in cells. She is small, but not unlike the size of supercedure queens freshly laying last year. SoI rearranged the cell builder, pinched her comb with eggs onto a new frame and moved an empty comb into the middle of the hive. We'll see what she can do. Anticipating this will be drone brood?


----------



## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

wpoley said:


> Film it for us newbees.Please


wpoley, I posted a thread with some video I made yesterday. not the best , but I had fun doing it, and It might help


----------



## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> Well...
> I don't really know exactly what to make of this. I was out in the yard where my cell builder is after work. Emerging day was supposed to be Thursday. I decided since I caught a swarm and made two splits that I didn't need any of these tiny cells so I was going to leave the two best looking and just see what happened. First I notice that they built a palm sized patch of comb off what I thought was the best looking cell. Then in those cells I notice eggs. In bottom of cells, one cell has two eggs. Great, I think... One of the workers decided to start laying. Then I notice the cell they built off of is open on the end... And the cell next to it is opened but also chewed from the side. Hmmm. The cell next to it has the end actively being chewed open. Wild... So I pull the bee coming out of that cell out, it looks lifeless and is a worker as best I can tell. Pinched her head and tossed her. These eggs are intriging me so I pull the next comb and find a couple eggs scattered, but centered in their cells.
> 
> And then I see her.... Walking around like she owns the place looking in cells. She is small, but not unlike the size of supercedure queens freshly laying last year. SoI rearranged the cell builder, pinched her comb with eggs onto a new frame and moved an empty comb into the middle of the hive. We'll see what she can do. Anticipating this will be drone brood?



it looks like you grafted too old and the queen came out early and already mated. sometimes it takes them a few days before she starts to lay right, and also depending on weather, maybe she could not get mated yet all the way.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

crocodilu911 said:


> it looks like you grafted too old and the queen came out early and already mated. sometimes it takes them a few days before she starts to lay right, and also depending on weather, maybe she could not get mated yet all the way.


She's laying like the freshly mated ones from last year. A patch of about 30 cells, then a few scattered. Then a week later every cell was full.

I'm know I grafted too old (actually about 50/50, but didn't get a good feeling about any of the right sized larva... the plunger system on the chinese grafting tool seems crude... at least on the one I used), and in fact in frustration grafted the last few too old purposely because they were so easy. If it's worker brood and she can lay up a nuc I'll consider it a success. Otherwise, she goes in the queen juice jar.

I'm going to give grafting another go before too much longer. Just waiting for more bee resources to become available.


----------



## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

you did a great job, she is nice. I did some grafting yesterday and the day before. look at the video's on my post  let me know what you think.
buy some roller cages....you can set them up, after they cap the cells, that way your queens, even if they hatch early, they will hatch in the cage.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

crocodilu911 said:


> you did a great job, she is nice. I did some grafting yesterday and the day before. look at the video's on my post  let me know what you think.
> buy some roller cages....you can set them up, after they cap the cells, that way your queens, even if they hatch early, they will hatch in the cage.


I will take a look at your videos, I really think I will be able to graft much better if I can use a "solid" tool that can pluck the larva up then place it in the cell. I have a couple of the JZBZ's plastics to try, and a few paperclip ones that I hammered out that look promising. The hole time using that silly Chinese tool I would have paid for a toothpick or a paper clip or anything rigid. I swore I added a stainless grafting tool to the same order from Mann Lake, but I must have decided that I could get by for now without trying that one. Also have a lighted magnifying headgear gizmo that should make it easier to see than naked eye with my dad holding a flashlight.

Thanks for the comment, if you saw the setup you wouldn't say it was a "great job". 
The bees somehow overcame my inexperience and possibly fashioned what I gave them into a queen that is at the very least laying eggs. Unknown what kind of eggs. I can say that I grafted a mated queen now, though. 

Regarding early emergence... it is the reason I didn't place these above the mother hive after 24-hours. I was very concerned that a rogue virgin would either spur them to swarm and loose my favorite queen or she'd slip through the queen excluder and kill her. Very glad I didn't do it.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I may have this all wrong. Is this correct? You check the cell builder two days before the cells are supposed to hatch and find not only hatched cells, but an apparently young mated queen laying some eggs?

I've been doing a lot of reading about raising queens lately and have seen references to "rogue" queens getting into a cell builder. Do you think this is what happened?


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Brad Bee said:


> I may have this all wrong. Is this correct? You check the cell builder two days before the cells are supposed to hatch and find not only hatched cells, but an apparently young mated queen laying some eggs?
> 
> I've been doing a lot of reading about raising queens lately and have seen references to "rogue" queens getting into a cell builder. Do you think this is what happened?


Had their not been an intact emerged cell and one torn down I would think possible. I will say she looks nothing like her mother  

Baby:


Momma:


I guess they don't look completely different, but with the number of different colored drones that she makes, it wouldn't surprise me if her daughters were yellow, black, striped, or anything in between.

I knew I grafted some older larva, but this would have had to have been darn near capped and I know I didn't graft any that old. From the looks of it she looks like a queen too. Will be interested to see what she does. These cells were so small, that wouldn't make her emerge faster right? There was no brood in the cell builder and I double checked the frames looking for cells and found none.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Went back today. She is still in the hive, but now zero eggs and no larva... No idea what to make of what has happened. She has until Thursday then she goes in the queen juice and I set up a cell builder Sunday (hopefully). 

Does anyone have any ideas as to why she would lay eggs that then were eaten or culled? No evidence of their having been there.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Ok, I missed about 6-7 cells with larva in them apparently. They were capping them yesterday (drones). I could not locate her in the hive so I shook her out and added the combs back into the mother hive. I think she might have been in there though because the bees clustered up on the bricks their hive had been sitting on. So all is right in the world, she wasn't a mated, laying queen. Just some sort of... I don't know. Half worker half queen. There is a term for that I think that is escaping me at the moment. Maybe they'll take off somewhere and a beekeeper will get a swarm call and then get his heart broken when this softball sized clump of bees doesn't even have a functional queen. :s

Ended up splitting the mother hive into 4 colonies so I will hopefully end up with a couple of her daughters laying here before too much longer.


----------

