# 1st package installed, and all dead at day 4? Why?



## Pearl (Apr 25, 2015)

Help needed. Installed my very fist bee package on the 21st. It was nice 67 degree, and I saw bees flying and eating the sugar syrup on the top feeder. The second day was colde at around 54, didn't see bees out - understandable. The 3rd day cold and windy at about 53. Didn't see bees. I lifted the feeder to take a peak ans saw them clustered into a ball around the queen cage, alive. I also took out the screened bottom board and saw there were something looks like bee wax flakes. Not much of sugar syrup has been taken, but things were so far so good I thought.

This morning, I couldn't help myself and went checking the girls again. The bee cluster was still there but they all seem dead - no sign of lives. I used my hand to spread them a little and they are all dead. I opened up the frames that the queen cage was placed, and saw the sugar plug was open, and I also saw some bees were moving. No comb has been draw. And there was a layer of dead bees down on the bottom. I think this package of bees are gone. But why? What have I done wrong?


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

How much of an opening does your hive have? Assuming langstroth equipment, are you using a reducer? Do you have a top opening?


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## Pearl (Apr 25, 2015)

cgybees said:


> How much of an opening does your hive have? Assuming langstroth equipment, are you using a reducer? Do you have a top opening?


Yes, it's a Lang 8 frame deep box with a reducer set to the small opening. No, I don't have a top opening.

Could it because I used the SBB? So the bees can't keep the hive warm?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

bees are not dead until they are "warm and dead". Maybe they are just cold and have gone into statis. Give them a few more days, and try not to open the box too much.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Pearl said:


> Help needed. Installed my very fist bee package on the 21st. It was nice 67 degree, and I saw bees flying and eating the sugar syrup on the top feeder. The second day was colde at around 54, didn't see bees out - understandable. The 3rd day cold and windy at about 53. Didn't see bees. I lifted the feeder to take a peak ans saw them clustered into a ball around the queen cage, alive. I also took out the screened bottom board and saw there were something looks like bee wax flakes. Not much of sugar syrup has been taken, but things were so far so good I thought.
> 
> This morning, I couldn't help myself and went checking the girls again. The bee cluster was still there but they all seem dead - no sign of lives. I used my hand to spread them a little and they are all dead. I opened up the frames that the queen cage was placed, and saw the sugar plug was open, and I also saw some bees were moving. No comb has been draw. And there was a layer of dead bees down on the bottom. I think this package of bees are gone. But why? What have I done wrong?


Did you spray them with sugar syrup or water when you hived them?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Do you have a ScBB and was it open?


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## Pearl (Apr 25, 2015)

sharpdog said:


> Did you spray them with sugar syrup or water when you hived them?


I spray them with 1:1 sugar syrup when I hive them. Them were happy that day as it was nice and warm at 67 at the highest.


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## Pearl (Apr 25, 2015)

snl said:


> Do you have a ScBB and was it open?


Yes, I have a ScBB with a closed drawer.


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## Pearl (Apr 25, 2015)

ruthiesbees said:


> bees are not dead until they are "warm and dead". Maybe they are just cold and have gone into statis. Give them a few more days, and try not to open the box too much.


I hope this is the case. I will not open the box for the next couple of days and hope them come alive when the temp goes up.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Pearl,

I live in northern NY, sometimes in the winter I pick up bees that have been outside in single digit temps. They certainly look dead. But I can rewarm them in my bare, cupped, hand by gently blowing my breath over them. It's surprising how they will re-animate when warmed up. 

Artifically warming your bees is not something I would suggest for a whole package, though. In your situation, I would try not to open the hive again until it is warmer. There's nothing that you can do by opening, anyway, and the bees will lose any warm air trapped inside. Make sure to keep the drawer closed. If the hive is really in a windy place you clould wrap the hive with something like a warm woolen blanket, of course keeping the entrances clear. 

Enjambres


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

I have heard a few places that particularly in cooler climates spraying a package with syrup can cause bees to have issues.. either unable to fly or if it chills rapidly can cause cold/wet bees to chill and die. (No experience just repeating what others have said).


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Pearl said:


> I spray them with 1:1 sugar syrup when I hive them. Them were happy that day as it was nice and warm at 67 at the highest.


I suspect that they were still damp when the temp dropped.


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## Pearl (Apr 25, 2015)

enjambres said:


> Pearl,
> 
> I live in northern NY, sometimes in the winter I pick up bees that have been outside in single digit temps. They certainly look dead. But I can rewarm them in my bare, cupped, hand by gently blowing my breath over them. It's surprising how they will re-animate when warmed up.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Enjambres, for your input. 

I wraped the hive now with plastic. I also noticed the "dead" bees that I cleaned out at the entrance this morning were moving under the sun. So you guys are right they are not really dead but appear dead. I will leave them alone and hope for the best.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Pearl, 

Oh, my! I'm sorry, I really meant a just blanket, _not_ a sheet of plastic. Plastic has the not-neglible risk of making things worse, because it might be keeping moisture in the hive when it should be allowed to exit. I doubt you have harmed your bees, just now, by doing this but please consider swapping the plastic out for a warm blanket, quilt, moving blanket, or something similar. 

Although my blanket-wrapped hives are covered with a tarp during the winter (this keeps them from getting wet when the snow melts) I can only do that safely because I have substantial, and somewhat intricate, ventilation channels built in elsewhere in the wrappings. Hives need to exchange air with the outside through many small leaks to keep the inside air healthy, so a tightly secured sheet of plastic may substantially frustrate that. While a loosely laid-on plastic will do nothing to retain warmth. A warm wool blanket, OTOH, will retard but not prevent air exchanges (leaks) and also add some radiational loss-prevention, which will lower the energy costs to the bees in maintaining the needed temps to survive.

Thick, woolly, air-trapping cloth of some kind is what does the best for this purpose. It doesn't have to real wool; similar synthetic materials would be just fine. This is just for the short-term use over the next few days, not a permanent thing.

Enj.


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## Pearl (Apr 25, 2015)

enjambres said:


> Thick, woolly, air-trapping cloth of some kind is what does the best for this purpose. It doesn't have to real wool; similar synthetic materials would be just fine. This is just for the short-term use over the next few days, not a permanent thing.
> 
> Enj.


My bad. I thought plastic is better than blanket to block the wind. Will chage it to blanket the first thing in the morning. Thank you very much for the education.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Your temps were ideal for hiving a package. Did they have access to and did they consume the feed? Sounds to me like they starved.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

How big of a cluster?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

jim lyon said:


> Your temps were ideal for hiving a package. Did they have access to and did they consume the feed? * Sounds to me like they starved*.


And the answer that is most likley to be correct is.............

Ill placement of the feed source. Something that happens to be the largest cause of package bee demise followed by the time worn 2nd best answer of "I killed my queen trying to poke a hole in the sugar.":scratch:


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

A cluster of bees will still move and sting even if it's cold outside. 
I hate to ask this, but were the low temps since they were hived?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Mr.Beeman said:


> A cluster of bees will still move and sting even if it's cold outside.
> I hate to ask this, but were the low temps since they were hived?


The relevant question is *how* much will they move and to *where* they will move ( if at all) when it is cold outside. (below 50 degrees F in my book) The answers to those questions will answer why these bees crapped out..


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Honey-4-All said:


> Ill placement of the feed source. Something that happens to be the largest cause of package bee demise followed by the time worn 2nd best answer of "I killed my queen trying to poke a hole in the sugar.":scratch:


Ok, so we are on the subject, I will 'ask the expert'. What is right, and what is wrong with this installation. Done on Feb 28 this year, outside temp at the time, just under 50F, overnight frost. We dont get to be picky about weather when it's time to install, they arrive when they arrive. It's a 1 kilo NZ package we put in with 4 empty drawn brood frames. 1 liter of warmed syrup in the feeder, and about 1/4 liter of warmed syrup poured into the comb of the frame beside the feeder. A scoop of beepro mix on top of the 4 frames, queen cage hanging in the middle of the 4 frames, the 'fresh new' frames were not in the box when we put the bees in. After taking the can out of the package, a small shake of bees on top of the queen, then dumped the rest into the side of the box with no frames. Then I put the package into that gap near the front, where there were no bees, closed it up and waited an hour. Popped the lid an hour later, pulled out the now empty package, and saw the bees working on both the feeder and the scoop of supplement, put in a couple fresh new frames and took this picture. I kept them screened in for the first day, and till about noon on the second day, then opened them up with a reduced entrance. We waited 4 days (overnight frost every night in that period), then opened to check the queen was out. I did find some eggs, so we closed it up and didn't look for 2 more weeks.



I think the install went well, today the feeder is out, bees are on 7 frames, and will be needing another box next week.

Comments, criticisms invited.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

It's hard to find fault with anything I'm seeing here. The syrup in the comb is a nice touch for sure. My only concern is in an extended cold spell the bees might be reluctant to go down into the feeder. The sure thing would be an inverted feed can sitting directly on the cluster.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

That is pretty much how I did it when used packages except I did not put syrup directly on the frames and used room temperature syrup. Also i dump all the bees in before placing the Queen cage and have no empty space in the box. To date I have had no negative experiences with packages except that they quickly supercede.


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## Pearl (Apr 25, 2015)

When I installed the package, the sugar can was still half full. 

I gave sugar syrup on the top feeder, but I doubt the bees would come up to get the sugar since it was cold these days. I saw the bees in the feeder eating the first day.

The bee cluster on about three frames. They are hanging there lifelessly. 

Today I went check the hive again. There were several dozen bees crawling on the ground and some at the entrance. Could they have Tracheal mite? What should I do now?


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I am wondering if they didn't have enough warm temperature hours to take the syrup needed to survive. When the syrup is too cold they won't take it. They may have been better with some granulated sugar on top of the frames.


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## Pearl (Apr 25, 2015)

Finally found an old post that is exactly what is happening to my package, and I now believe that I got a sick package.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-266534.html


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## Pearl (Apr 25, 2015)

One more question if my package got nosema due to the stress, should the bees start dying the second day after I got them? Will it take some times to show?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

All confined bees have dysentery. Usuallyl when a package dies early on its either starvation or robbing. In cold weather they often can't take syrup, so you will have to warm the syrup once a day in cold weather.


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## Pearl (Apr 25, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> All confined bees have dysentery. Usuallyl when a package dies early on its either starvation or robbing. In cold weather they often can't take syrup, so you will have to warm the syrup once a day in cold weather.


Thank you for your input. I added a candy cake in the hive, and hope the bees would have some of it. Tomorrow will be over 60. I will wait and see if there is any bees in the air.


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## Spark (Feb 24, 2011)

Pearl do you have a mentor you can call? If you belong to one of the clubs there are plenty of people who can help. Last week towards the end of the week we had below freezing temps overnight so spraying sugar water on the bees was bad advise.


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