# Stung by Virgin Queen



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Bob Anderson said:


> I have read many a thread here suggesting that queens don't sting. Of course there are a few contrary threads that say they do but the vast majority say they have never been stung even after handling hundreds of queens, etc. I hereby state that a virgin queen can nail you good. I was trying out Mike Palmer's method of queen marking where you place the queen on your middle finger and grab her by the thorax with your index finger and thumb. I did it successfully several times but a big gorgeous yellow virgin took exception to this approach and nailed that middle finger perch. She achieved her goal, the surprise and pain got her free of my grasp and off she flew. I bade her farewell and good luck. So is it mated queens won't sting but watch those virgins or did I get the one in a thousand queen that stings?


A friend of mine has experienced a queen sting when handling many virgin queens doing inseminations.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It is not impossible but extremely rare. The virgin queens sting is designed to sting other virgins and contains venom. After mating it becomes an ovipositor. I have handled thousands of mated queens and cannot remember being stung. Never been stung by a virgin either but I don't actually handle many virgins. But have the odd time noticed a virgin thrust a stinger my way when being handled, if my finger was in the wrong place I would have been stung.

But I don't think it's a queens instinct to sting other than another queen, defence is left to the other bees far as the queen is concerned. The behaviour I've noticed in virgins is there is a time when they are pumped and aggressively looking for other virgins and I have even seen such virgins take a wrestling position with a worker. It could be that handling such a virgin simulates a fight situation and causes a sting response.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> It is not impossible but extremely rare. The virgin queens sting is designed to sting other virgins and contains venom. After mating it becomes an ovipositor. I have handled thousands of mated queens and cannot remember being stung. Never been stung by a virgin either but I don't actually handle many virgins. But have the odd time noticed a virgin thrust a stinger my way when being handled, if my finger was in the wrong place I would have been stung.
> 
> But I don't think it's a queens instinct to sting other than another queen, defence is left to the other bees far as the queen is concerned. The behaviour I've noticed in virgins is there is a time when they are pumped and aggressively looking for other virgins and I have even seen such virgins take a wrestling position with a worker. It could be that handling such a virgin simulates a fight situation and causes a sting response.


I was removing attendants from queen cages and marking 40 queens at my kitchen table. After about 20 were marked, one of them stung me exactly as the OP described. I assume it was due to the pheromones from the previous queens on my fingers. It has never happened again, and I have marked well over 1000 queens. I do however, wash my hands in the water pail or rub them on my jeans more often when handling queen after queen.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> It is not impossible but extremely rare. The virgin queens sting is designed to sting other virgins and contains venom. After mating it becomes an ovipositor.


We've been requeening colonies for the last couple weeks. Usually we destroy the old queens. Yesterday, I tried something silly. I put 3 mated queens into one cage, with attendants. No fighting. In fact, this morning, the three queens are totally ignoring each other.


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

Michael Palmer said:


> I put 3 mated queens into one cage, with attendants. No fighting. In fact, this morning, the three queens are totally ignoring each other.



Maybe they are supporting each other after getting booted from their respective hives. Idea for a new reality show......... "The Real Queen Bees Of St. Albans"


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> ...I put 3 mated queens into one cage, with attendants. No fighting. In fact, this morning, the three queens are totally ignoring each other.


Interesting, I would have bet a lot that this could not happen. Did the workers separate/protect the queens? If you have more news about this experiment, please pass it on. 

I've been stung by virgin and mated queens...I concluded there was something about my dexterity, or lack thereof, that caused it. It usually happens when I'm pushing the queen to move in a certain direction, usually putting them in a queen cage, or if they act like they want to fly. I don't have feeling in my fingers like I used to, a distinct disadvantage.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

The question for me is, why mark virgin queens? Maybe for II, but for open mating it would seem to be a Bad Idea.

That said, we'll probably mark two new laying queens this weekend.


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## Bob Anderson (Jun 13, 2014)

Phoebee said:


> The question for me is, why mark virgin queens?


I'm still new at this queen thing. I have been grafting 12 cells every five days for the last 2 months or so. I remove cells at day 5 from the cell builder and put them in an incubator. I normally use the cells on day 10 but occasionally I don't need them right then so I let the queens emerge into cages. Sometimes I can then use those virgins within 24 hrs. I have marked some and they have successfully mated. So, I practiced marking a few the other day and got stung... I have trouble catching mated queens. My hand starts shaking too much. And then, when I catch them, I have trouble with them squirming around so much that I have trouble marking them. So I practiced on the virgins a bit. Drones are easy. I actually find it easier catching workers as attendants because they don't run and if you miss you just go for a different one. If you don't get the queen on the first attempt, the race is on...

Putting bees in cages is interesting too. Everyone says just stick their heads in the cage and they go right in. Not my bees. My bees are like cats. Ever tried putting a cat into a cat carrier? They spread-eagle across the cage entrance and fight back with their spiky or stingy bits.


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## Wosiewose (Oct 31, 2015)

Bob Anderson said:


> Putting bees in cages is interesting too. Everyone says just stick their heads in the cage and they go right in. Not my bees. My bees are like cats. Ever tried putting a cat into a cat carrier? They spread-eagle across the cage entrance and fight back with their spiky or stingy bits.


LOL, ain't that the truth! I had to buy a special top-loading cat carrier because I couldn't get one of the kitties into the "regular" one to save my life, and the vet requires a carrier! Is there such a thing as a top-loading queen cage? 

Wosiewose


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Wosiewose said:


> LOL, ain't that the truth! I had to buy a special top-loading cat carrier because I couldn't get one of the kitties into the "regular" one to save my life, and the vet requires a carrier! Is there such a thing as a top-loading queen cage?
> 
> Wosiewose


Our cat travels with us to the cabin (and apiary) almost weekly. She usually enters the top-loaded carrier with little fuss. For years, we had to catch her and use some degree of force to get her in, explaining, "Resistance is futile."

Between cabin visits, she often enters the carrier voluntarily now, as a refuge.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Two days later and all' swell. The three queens and 7 attendants are getting along just fine. 

Now, what do you think would happen if they were virgins? Come see at EAS. We're taking a bunch of virgins, and will set up a death match. Taking bets. ☺


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Two days later and all' swell. The three queens and 7 attendants are getting along just fine.


I think this begs the question of what would happen if you put them all under a push-in cage and introduced them to a colony.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> I think this begs the question of what would happen if you put them all under a push-in cage and introduced them to a colony.


I spoke (via an interpreter) to a man from Kazakhstan as he visited my few hives, and he reports that one of those queens will come through and head the colony. They do it every fall when they stack three hives to combine them underground for the winter (they split those mega hives in spring). Of interest to me is the 'why' of MP's queen truce inside that queen cage...? Obviously, there is something we don't 'get' about queen interaction. Maybe someone 'gets' it...I hope they share. 

BTW, thanks for the update Michael P. -are the queens piping?


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

Michael Palmer said:


> We're taking a bunch of virgins, and will set up a death match. Taking bets. ☺


Wish I could make it. I luvs me some GLOW (Gorgeous Ladies Of Wrestling)


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I have seen several people write that when they combine, the bees most times will pick the best queen to end up with come spring. Maby it is not the toughest queen but more who the bees dicide to take care of?
Cheers
gww


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

But combining down three colonies into one colony is still three factions. Introducing THREE queens accepting and behaving as accepting of each other into a colony with no queen is an entirely different problem (in my opinion).

If you placed them under a push-in cage, maybe the emerging nurse bees would make their pick. But I suspect they wouldn't. 

I might give that very thing a shot at some point this fall.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

All 3 queens still alive.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> All 3 queens still alive.


When is the death match?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Tomorrow. Had a trial run with a few virgins this evening.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Tomorrow. Had a trial run with a few virgins this evening.


I wish I could have attended.


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