# Carniolan Bee question



## Jer733 (Oct 5, 2008)

I tried some this year and really liked them. Use all foundationless and they build a lot of comb quickly.

A little swarmy, lost a few that were in single deeps with only 6-7 frames full and they left me.

I live in Southern CA. Arid and semi desert. Had several days over 100F this year and more to come. Not humid here though.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Carniolans will do OK in the south but they are better suited for northern climates. You will probably have a more "productive" colony in your area if you use Italian or Minn Hygenic queens. 

Carniolians seem to shut down raising brood faster in the fall and they go into winter with a much smaller cluster. This works well in the north with long winters as it reduces the amount of honey stores they need to survive until spring. 

Italians seem to keep a larger number of active bees and brood in the colony for a longer period of time. That's good in the south where there is a much longer foraging period, but can be counterproductive up north in regards to winter stores. For example Italians here in Ohio might need an additional 20-30 pounds of capped honey for winter than the Carniolans or they risk starvation in early spring.


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## WayneW (Jul 17, 2008)

Only my second year with bees, but i like the Carni/Russian bees. (not positive of the breed of mine) but they're one of the 2.

I bought a package of bees this year with an Italian queen and boy did they take off!!!!!!! Filled (packed) 3 mediums of foundationless frames in a matter of weeks once the queen was accepted. I'm just hoping they don't eat all their stores before spring, and end up starving. I understand they are pigs, but if they make it, I will be at the farmers mkt selling honey next spring, god willing.

God Bless and Good Luck.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Here is some data on the Carniolans.
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Carniolan_honeybee
Character and behavior

Beneficial 
considered to be gentle and non-aggressive
can be kept in populated areas.
sense of orientation considered better than the Italian honey bee race
less drifting of bees from one hive to a neighboring hive
when compared to the Italian race, they are not as prone to rob honey
able to overwinter in smaller numbers of winter bees; honey stores are conserved.
able to quickly adapt to changes in the environment
better for areas with long winters
rhythm of brood production very steep. Brood rearing is reduced when available forage decreases
small use of propolisPropolis
Propolis is a resinous mixture that honey bees collect from tree buds, sap flows, or other botanical sources. It is used as a sealant for unwanted open spaces in the beehive ....
resistant to brood diseases
for areas with strong spring nectar flowNectar source
A nectar source is a flowering plant that produces nectar as part of its reproductive strategy. These plants create nectar, which attract pollinating insects and sometimes other animals such as birds....
and early pollination
forage earlier in the morning and later in the evening, and on cool, wet days. 


Not beneficial 
more prone to swarming if overcrowded
low ability to produce wax and build comb (not uniformly accepted as fact)
low ability to thrive in hot summer weather
strength of broodnest more dependent on availability of pollen
dark queenQueen bee
The term queen bee is typically used to refer to an adult, mated female that lives in a honey bee colony or hive; she is usually the mother of all the bees in the hive....
is difficult to find 
Regards,
Ernie


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I wouldn't say that Carniolans don't do well in the South. But they are more frugal and responsive to climate changes and that is a definite advantage in the North. Probably is an advantage in the South as well.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Probably is an advantage in the South as well. 
The Carniolans have shut down their egg laying as of mid August, zip code 93010, unless they are on a feeding program.
Ernie


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Reviving this old thread as I'm curious about this race of bees... 

Anybody else had some experience with carniolans in the Mississippi, Georgia, Alabama region???

Ed


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

My first year with them but I am far north of you. We had a very late cold spring and the buildup was slower than italians. They were drawing all new comb and with the lateness of the arrival of warm weather, they maybe produced as much as possible for any race. Now I am noting that the brood nest is already being backfilled while a fair flow continues. They must know what to do better than I. The Italians I had in the past would have still had huge brood nests. I am anxiously waiting to see how they finish off the season and winter. I foolishly split some of them early and they played catch up all summer and will just make winter groceries. The unsplit ones I would guess will have 60-80 pounds surplus coming from 5 frame nucs that I picked up April 15th and who didn't have any working weather to speak of for over a month. Sounds better telling it that way than I thought!


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## Monkadelic (Feb 5, 2010)

Ed, I have two hives with Kentucky bred Carniolan queens that I hived in June. My KY girls pack more pollen than I am used to with my Florida Ferals, and they are gentle as kittens! I truly love working those bees. One was slow to build out, the other built out nicely. The comb in the super is honestly the prettiest, most consistent I have seen.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Vance G, what you're seeing with the brood chamber is what has me interested. The Carniolans simply seem to use common sense in figuring out when to inflate or deflate the size of the colony depending on the available resources. It appears they respond quickly to a changing food supply. Going into winter with a smaller cluster means they won't be consuming a large ration like a hungry bunch of Italians will. 60-80 pounds of surplus from nucs picked up four months ago that had to work in bad weather sounds great!!! I may have try at least one queen to see how it goes down here. They just seem like some fine bees. But, if it's too hot...it's too hot. 

Monkadelic, between you and Vance G, ya'll are gonna push me over the edge!  According to www.weather.com Ft. Myers averages to be 7-degrees F hotter than us (and we average 12-15 degrees F cooler than ya'll in winter). It sounds like they are doing well for you so maybe they can handle the temperature for me.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm trying to sort out things for next year. I'm getting two established Caucasian colonies to star my bee yard with and want to get some different genes in the area. I'm getting my bees from my mentor and he is about 7.2 miles from me. I intend to start a couple of nucs after I get the bees and will be looking for some queens from elsewhere to get some new genes in the mix. I figure if I can add to the local gene pool then it'll help the local population in general...and the Carnies do seem like some nice bees. We'll see, I've got a whole winter to study over this. 

Ed

ETA: One more thing, what size supers are ya'll using?....8 or 10 frame?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The Carniolans have shut down their egg laying as of mid August, zip code 93010, unless they are on a feeding program.

Imagine how many more mouths there would be to feed if they didn't.

If you want "brood rearing fools" Italians are great. And that's exactly what you want to sell packages or send bees to the almonds. But those Carniolan breaks in brood rearing help with Varroa as wells as making less mouths to feed in a dearth and over winter.


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## Monkadelic (Feb 5, 2010)

Ed, I'm on 10 frame equipment. I'm curious to see how they do over the next year, and it sounds like they'd do just as good in your area. The reason I got the queens I did was because I got to see the Apiary they came from and was really impressed with them. I ended up driving home with queens, which was totally unplanned! They are currently my favorite bees to work.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I was looking at the Sunkists (not Cordovan) at Russell's and noted the description states "with swarm levels around 100-120k". Wow! I guess a person could get a colony of these going, buy several Carniolans or Caucasians queens, and start several new colonies from it in one season. Maybe I'll reassess that project in my second year, I think I'll have my hands full the first year. 

This may seem absurd to ask, but...disregarding swarming implications, can a beek have a colony that is too big? If a colony can throw off a swarm of 100k bees, that means basically a 200k hive? I'm under the impression that the bigger the colony grows the more defensive they get. ??? Elapsed time for a full inspection would seem to have to be excessive. And feeding if needed would be a big job. I guess for an experienced beek it would be ok, but for someone like me (no experience) I'd think it might be a touchy situation. 

I like the fact that the Carniolans take a break in brood rearing when resources wain...hitting the mites during that time is the silver-lining to a cloud. I know I'm going to get hit with every pest known to bee down here in the land of kudzu so I'm trying to gear up and prepare for the worst...

The hives that I'm getting are established hives of Caucasians and so far I'm liking what I'm reading about them, also. Though their heavier use of propolis isn't exactly appreciated by lots of beeks, I'm willing to see how it works with the varroa. My bees are coming from my mentor who keeps Caucasians, he uses no chemicals and has not had bad trouble with varroa and SHB.

I'm looking at the Carniolans as they seem like a "smart" bee in regards to survival...more of a survivor-type race than the Italians it seems. Plus, some new genetics in our local bee population I think wouldn't hurt anything, either.

Of course, I'm just a thick-headed newbie rambling on...
Ed


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## Monkadelic (Feb 5, 2010)

Ed, I'm a newbee too... Read and ask, observe, experiment... That's all you can do!

I really wanted to have different types of bees so I could observe the differences, and I have definitely seen them. It also doesn't hurt to add new breeds to the local gene pool here!


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Monkadelic said:


> Ed, I'm on 10 frame equipment. I'm curious to see how they do over the next year, and it sounds like they'd do just as good in your area. The reason I got the queens I did was because I got to see the Apiary they came from and was really impressed with them. I ended up driving home with queens, which was totally unplanned! They are currently my favorite bees to work.


Howdy Monkadelic, I went back and looked as something didn't seem right about the comparisons I saw between your average temperatures and mine. It actually looks like we run about 20-degrees cooler than ya'll October through February, then it starts getting more simliar. Heatwise we run about the same in June, July, and August though our record highs are above yours. So, except for the infrequent record highs we should be as cool or slightly cooler than ya'll. We don't have the gulf breezes this far inland to really help cool us and we get some stagnant humdity that sits down on us from time to time. The Carniolans are on my short list, though, with the few races we have to work with the list can't be too long, anyhow, can it!  From what I've read they are indeed a calm and easy to work with bee.

Ed


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> that's exactly what you want to sell packages or send bees to the almonds.


What about NWC for in the Almonds? I know they winter in smaller clusters than Italians do, but they are suppose to fly in colder weather than Italians will and build up quickly.

C2


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## Monkadelic (Feb 5, 2010)

Ed, I'm sure they'd winter fine, as my stock came from Western Kentucky, and it gets pretty darn cold there. Your area and mine are pretty warm in comparison!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What about NWC for in the Almonds? I know they winter in smaller clusters than Italians do, but they are suppose to fly in colder weather than Italians will and build up quickly.

I don't know what stage of buildup the Caniolans would be in if you were IN California in February, but if you're raising them in Nebraska to take to California they will be far too small in February. They might be building up in February there, but I can't say. Italians in Nebraska in February, on the other hand, would probably be strong enough. You would have to experiment to find the answer to that question.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Monkadelic said:


> Ed, I'm sure they'd winter fine, as my stock came from Western Kentucky, and it gets pretty darn cold there. Your area and mine are pretty warm in comparison!


<chuckle> It ain't the winter I'm worried about...it's the heat. This past winter was a long cold one for us, but I'm sure the Carniolans would have been fine. I was out looking at the general area for my bee yard behind the house. Still not sure how close I want to put it towards the western pines...this will determine when the yard begins to be shaded in the afternoon. I'm probably gonna end up with at least one Carniolan queen before it's over with. 

Ed


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

I know I don't have the heat some of you are experiencing, we've only had a handful of days above 100, we've mainly been high 90s. Strachan Apiaries is where I just got mine, I'm going to call them on Monday, to find out about the Almond buildup, I'll ask about the heat, maybe they'll have a little more knowledge on the heat factor of the NWC. I'll let you know what they say.

C2


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## Monkadelic (Feb 5, 2010)

Thanks Batman, I'd like to hear what you find out


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks Batman for checking into the heat tolerance issue for us.

Now, at the risk of showing my newbeeness....NWC are simply a refined line of Carniolans bred preferred stock for favorable traits, etc., and not a hybrid...correct? I want to be sure that later on when I decide to increase my yard from my own stock that the daughters of the queens have similar traits of their mothers. I understand the local drone population will factor in, but I don't want the daughters to be some kind of frankenbee or some other horror.  I'd actually like to get a gentle breed drone population out there to help in the eventual arrival of AHB. I'll just be a tiny speck on the map but I guess every little bit of good genes helps.

From what I've been able to tell it's not a hybrid, but just to be sure... ???

Thanks,
Ed


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

Ok, I called Strachan, and they said they send lots of queens to Texas, Georgia, Florida, and Kentucky. So they said the heat or humidity back there should not be a problem.
I asked about build up for the Almonds and lots of Commercial operations back East and out here use them, they build up fine. She mentioned that was all they used for their operation obviously. She was actually really nice and as I mentioned I wanted to get into Almond pollination, she was going to forward my information to the person in charge of that to see she could help me with that too. 

Gotta say, nice people there, hope this helps,
C2


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Thank for checking the heat/humidity issue out for us! It looks like they're definitely worth giving them a try.

Glad to hear you've got some connections brewing for the almonds!

Hearing that they're good folks out there is good, too. It's always good to get a positive personal reference.

Thanks again,
Ed


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

The new world carniolan is a hybrid. I found the following information online.

Bee breeder Everett Hastings (Birch Hills, Saskatchewan). In the 1940s Hastings obtained the remnants of a 
Mountain Grey Caucasian stock originally imported from Russia to the US in the early 20th Century. Following 
years of selecting this stock under his harsh winter conditions, he began corporating Carniolan genetics in 1963. 
This hybrid population extremely productive and was selected to be very winter hardy and in prairie environments. 
Although his stock is no longer maintained, it has been incorporated into notable breeding populations worldwide, 
most notably the New World Carniolan population in Ohio.

The New World Carniolan was originally established in 1982 by Susan Cobey and Tim Lawrence in California. 
Carniolan stock from across the U.S. and Canada was collected, back crossed, and evaluated to establish 
the foundation population. 

So there you have a little history on the new world carniolan.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

Monkadelic said:


> Ed, I have two hives with Kentucky bred Carniolan queens that I hived in June. My KY girls pack more pollen than I am used to with my Florida Ferals, and they are gentle as kittens! I truly love working those bees. One was slow to build out, the other built out nicely. The comb in the super is honestly the prettiest, most consistent I have seen.


Fort Myers area is known for hottest, most humid and muggy summer in Florida.

So if Carniolans do OK in Ft Myers they should do as well or better anywhere in the South.

Reading this thread I am being tempted to get Carniolan queen next spring to try them out.


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## Pepper1079 (May 21, 2000)

My carniolans did very well. The only problem that I had was swarming. If they run out of laying room, they are gone. I went to 3 deeps and that solved the problem. That is great for splits. Keep your hive bodies rotated and give them room and they are great. At times, I would hace to pull honey frames to give them room.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Two years ago we purchased 60 Strachen NWC on June 15th. Using their introduction suggestions, all where accepted and laying on the next inspection. On the second inspection, 58/60 where still going strong. The most impressive part was that the queens where very consistent, no slackers, all the same.

Crazy Roland


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Folks, you are barking up the wrong tree. The problem with Carniolans is NOT that they have a problem with heat and humidity, on the contrary, they are some of the best bees around at dealing with the climate.

The problem is much simpler. Carniolans build up very rapidly in the spring resulting in an incredible swarming urge. Here in Alabama, we have 12 weeks average from first pollen until spring flow begins. Carniolans peak in about 10 weeks meaning they are GONNA swarm. You can get them past the swarming season and they will make a very good crop of honey. But then you get to the summer which is typically a dearth. The Carniolans totally suspend brood rearing which on the surface seems to be a good trait. But it also means they are going to be below optimum strength when the fall flow starts in August. In their favor, they build up rapidly once the fall flow starts, but they gather less than half the honey that is possible. For these two reasons, Carniolans are not favored here in the deep south. Please note that crossing Carniolans with just about any other breed accentuates the swarming tendency but it usually reduces the problems with preparing for the fall flow. A huge plus with the Carniolans is that they overwinter very very well here.

The problems with Italians are mostly based on being un-thrifty. They raise inordinate amounts of brood even when not needed and they tend to overwinter with washtub sized winter clusters. This means they need about twice as much honey to make it through winter compared to the Carniolans. Italians go into spring with large colonies to start and they rapidly increase to maximum strength. With 12 weeks to prepare for the spring flow, they will peak 2 or 3 weeks before the flow start which means they go into swarm mode. Once you get past the spring flow, they tend to maintain huge colonies through the dearth in mid-summer. They consume huge amounts of honey but when the fall flow hits, they have a massive population to gather the nectar. It is fairly easy to get 80 pounds of fall honey from a strong Italian colony. But you have to leave it ALL for the bees to overwinter because they will use every single drop to get through to the next spring.

Do you get the picture that neither Italians nor Carniolans are really adapted to Southeast conditions?

Of all the strains and breeds available, the Buckfast comes closest to matching the requirements of our climate. But Buckfast have their own set of problems. That is a discussion for another thread. The Buckfast purchased from Texas do not match the traits of the Buckfast as developed by Brother Adam.

DarJones


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

There is a distinctive difference between the Carniolan bee and the New World Carniolan. I believe that both can be purchased presently. In the 1960's I used the Carniolan race to start my pollination business. I figured then as someone else in this thread wants to also do now, that with their swarming tendency, it would be easy to fill empty hives and rent them. It worked very well. They were persistently in swarming mode. Built up to 350 hives in just a few years. With the New World Carniolan which my hives presently have, it is doubtful that such a fast populating of hive bodies would be possible. Make sure you use NWC if you want Carniolans that are far more manageable swarm wise. Carniolans *not* from Sue Coby's stock, I imagine would be the kind that was around before. Both kinds are available. OMTCW


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

Great post.

Very informative for a beek considering trying some Carnies.


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