# Frame feeder VS top feeder



## remist17 (Sep 29, 2014)

I ma getting ready for my first year with bees and need to purchase feeders.I see there top feeders and frame feeders. I am torn on which one to use. I like the top feeders since I do not need to go into the hives but I understand the importance of frame feeders in early spring when the cluster may not move to the top feeders. Could you please point out the pros and cons of these and suggestions on what I should do?

Thanks


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Also, be aware that both top feeders and frame feeders can drown a lot of bees.

I haven't tried all the designs out there, but the only feeder I have found so far that doesn't drown bees is the inverted/jar/bucket/pail design.

Nothing is more frustrating than setting up a feeder to help out your hive, and then discovering that you are killing off a significant percentage of your work force.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

For warm weather feeding a good top feeder works great. Very little disruption to the colony, just pull off the cover and pour in the syrup to refill. I've used the Mann Lake hive top feeders and had very few issues with drowned bees.
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/category/feeders-top-feeders.html

In cooler weather when the bees will not venture up into the top feeders I like to feed right on the top bars inside an empty box. I use 1 gallon quail waterers. But you can go with inverted pails, jars or baggies and they will take the syrup even in cold weather. I never liked the frame feeders. A lot of beekeepers use them so I guess it boils down to personal preference. I've noticed the commercial guys use them for feeding so they obviously work well.


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## dweber85rc (Nov 25, 2013)

I have the Mann lake frame feeders with ladders and have very little drowning. It only happens when I fill it too quick. Get the biggest one they have. Less trips


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## remist17 (Sep 29, 2014)

Mannlake has the deep hive with cap and latter and I just called them and the also sell medium feeders and separate cap and latter that needs to be modified to work. If I use a frame feeder than I am using 9 frames in the box correct? I was told that the inverted bucket or mason jar can leak if you have a temperature change over night. These work with the air pocket. This is why I was looking at frame feeders and the top feeders. I think Brushy mountain has a feeder similar to a chicken waterer. So for a new guy do I go with a deep hive frame feeders to get the bees started this spring and the chicken waterer type for summer and fall?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I use cork "nuggets", floating on the syrup to reduce drownings. I prefer screened-in top feeders.


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

A guy on the forum posted pictures of a feeder he made. I made 3, one for each hive. I set it right on top of the frames, then set a medium super to surround it. Gotta make sure the lid of the feeder is on securely, not one drowned bee, and they hold 1 gallon each. I am a firs year, and tried the frame feeders with cap and ladder, and was overwhelmed by the amount of bees in the thing when I went to refill it, and ended up killing a LOT of bees, the little suckers would just not cooperate and get out of the way. I also *added* regular screen door screening to mine, because the bees went right through the wire cloth, couldn't find a small enough hardware cloth.








I'll see if I can find the guys post.


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?297990-Cheap-top-feeder&highlight=cheap+top+feeder

Found it!


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## captaintat2 (Oct 27, 2012)

Guys, I think that you are making it far too complicated. I am now in the middle of my second rainy season and have just outfitted all of my hives with frame feeders. I made them myself for about a Dollar apiece. I had been using an empty medium super on top and then placing a bag of sugar syrup on top of the frames and closing it up. Very cheap way to go and it does the job just fine as long as you use large enough bags so that it will last for awhile. However, I think that the bees use it up too fast so I put 10 lbs. of hard candy in the frame feeders and sleep good at night knowing that rain or shine they have all the food they need for Winter growth. Each frame feeder replaces 2 regular frames.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

for fall type feeding, the top feeders with screens have a lot of capacity, I like the mann-lake ones the best but others are good. if you happen to see any drowned bees check the top cover, on a few I have sealed around the screen with silicone. for slower feeding I like a mason jar on top with a screen so I can refill without opening the hive or getting bees in my face, " no bee-help". I use with or without a super around the jar depending on the weather. my nuc boxes have screened holes for quart mason jars built-in, the jars are on even if the jars are empty. I have some frame feeders with ladders, I do not use them, too hard to fill and you have to open the hive to check or fill. I can see why large operators doing everything the same in a large number of hives and with a hose might like the lower price of the frame feeders.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

As post #9 partially described, A gallon zip lock bag full of warm syrup placed on the top bars carefully so it is sealed will drown no bees. After I put up to 3 quarts of syrup in the baggie, I stab the TOP SIDE only and the bees will drain the baggie thru a couple inch long slits. The bees can drain them in about 4 days. The syrup is warmed by the cluster and this method can be used in colder weather than any other liquid feeder. Frame feeders need to be placed on the outside wall of the hive body and once that syrup is cold, it takes a lot of warm weather to bring it up to temperature the bees can use the syrup. 

If you are not competent and cannot be trusted to seal a zip lock or only slit the top of the baggie placed on a fairly level hive, do not use them or you can drown the cluster.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

For just a couple of hives why not use an inverted jars or buckets? We have used these down to temps as low as -10 degrees successfully on our bees in Alaska. All feeders need to be "temperature appropriate." Each style has its benefits and drawbacks but as for overall use in the widest variety of situations the top down method above the cluster apparatuses work the best.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

Vance G said:


> As post #9 partially described, A gallon zip lock bag full
> 
> If you are not competent and cannot be trusted to seal a zip lock or only slit the top of the baggie placed on a fairly level hive, do not use them or you can drown the cluster.


I am in the incompetent crowd, I got a big lecture about kitchen mess. this is a popular method well liked in Ontario, not for me but try it.. hint do not use the cheap bags.


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## remist17 (Sep 29, 2014)

I think the frustrating part for me is all the different scenarios and options. I raise cattle and goats and they are so much easier. One size waterer, one size feeder, grain and hay. Bees are so complicated the more I read. I spoke to one guy and he told me the pale feeders leak if the temperature changes more than 5 degrees. I spoke to another guy and he swears by them. I thought the frame feeders were the way to go, but now having second thoughts on that now. 

Is there any truth to the statement, the bee cluster will not be able to get to the liquid on the top of the frames when it gets cooler. I am talking about first putting packages in with no stores. I think this is why it was recommended to get frame feeders so the bees do not have to go far.


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## PaBill (Apr 4, 2014)

My first year this past spring used from feeders exclusively with only foundation, didnt have any problems or the dead bees everyone talks of.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm pretty certain a bee could drown in a drop of water! I use all different kinds feeders. I use frame feeders the most. I use both Mann Lake 1 and 2 gallon with the ladder system and also add cork material inside. I also use Brushy Mountain Bee Farms Frame feeder with floats. I use inverted paint cans and hive top feeders. Top feeders work get when you want to put a lot of syrup on fast in warmer weather. With package bees if there is going to be a real cold spell I have moved the frame feeder in one position so it is not against the cold wall and that seemed to work. I also add some moistened (Not Real Wet) sugar on newspaper and place it on top of the frames. I have also sprayed frames and foundation with syrup. I use the method Vance uses and like it a lot also. Everyone has their way of doing things- now you just have to decide which one will suit your needs best. Good Luck and Enjoy!


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

remist17 said:


> I think Brushy mountain has a feeder similar to a chicken waterer. So for a new guy do I go with a deep hive frame feeders to get the bees started this spring and the chicken waterer type for summer and fall?


Here's what I use for warm or cool weather feeding. If the weather is cold the feeder is placed directly on the top bars above the cluster and they will continue to take the syrup. In warmer weather it can be placed above the inner cover as seen in the pic. With a piece of 3/4" rope in the tray there are no worries about drowning bees.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

great idea using the rope mike!

if you have a tractor supply store nearby here's a cheap one that screws to a jar:

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/harris-farms-screw-on-quail-base-for-quart-jar


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

That would be great for quart jars. I use 1 gallon Chick or Quail Waterers, fewer refills. Got mine at Tractor Supply too.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Mike Gillmore said:


> That would be great for quart jars. I use 1 gallon Chick or Quail Waterers, fewer refills. Got mine at Tractor Supply too.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

If I had to use feeders, I look for ones that are cheap, effective, and result in a good population of bees in the spring.

What I have found works well and meet these requirements are 1 gallon buckets perforated on top and used as feeders in and empty super. 
In the winter, I used the mountain camp message. This requires the purchase of new equipment and as resulted in a good bee population for me even in sub-zero upstate New York winters when I lived there.

To feed using the mountain camp method, place a sheet of newspaper paper toweling or the waxed paper that comes between sheets of foundation on the top bars. Leave enough space at the edges for bees to get up. Pierce the paper in a few places, then pour sugar directly onto the paper. When there is about three quarters of an inch of sugar stop and mist your sugar with water from a misting bottle.

Some will tell you this will not work because bees will not leave the cluster when it is cold. All I know is that even in sub-zero winters I had a good healthy population of bees come springtime when I used this method.

I do not like frame feeders because they sacrifice frame space that can otherwise be used for brood or for honey storage. 

In my experience with top leaders living in western Washington, once the feeders are empty if there is any moisture present mold is encouraged to grow.I therefore do not like them.

So there are my suggestions they are very inexpensive very effective and easy to do.

Oh...one thinrg I did not mention. 
During the winter dry sugar on the top bars absorbs moisture and prevents any moisture from dripping on the beach and chilling the cluster. Any dry sugar left over at the end of winter can be used to make syrup in the spring.


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## remist17 (Sep 29, 2014)

Beregondo said:


> What I have found works well and meet these requirements are 1 gallon buckets perforated on top and used as feeders in and empty super.
> In the winter, I used the mountain camp message. This requires the purchase of new equipment and as resulted in a good bee population for me even in sub-zero upstate New York winters when I lived there.


So are these the pale feeders that you turn upside down and put on top of the frames? I was told that if you get a swing in temperature that these leak? I wanted to go this route but when I was told this rethought.
I live in south central PA, so in April we tend to get the cold nights and warm days. Brushymountain sells a pale feeder item number 664http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Pail-Feeder/productinfo/664/


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I urge you to consider using zip lock bags on the top bars and the use of a 2 1/2" feeder rim to house them. No bees drown if you are competent and seal the baggie properly and the hives are relatively level. The heat of the cluster keeps the bag warm in any temperatures where you should be trying to feed liquid. The bees drain three quarts out of a gallon bag in four or five days thru a couple small slits in the top side of the baggie. Cheap and they don't need stored when not using them. If it is warmer, I prefer top feeders to frame feeders.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Vance G;

What is the trick to refilling or handling the bags after you have the slits cut?


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## pgayle (Jan 27, 2008)

crofter said:


> Vance G;
> 
> What is the trick to refilling or handling the bags after you have the slits cut?


I like the baggies too. I don't like to get into them too much in winter. I put a gallon baggie with 2:1 on the top bars, make a couple of half inch slits about 2/3 of the way up from the bottom. I put sugar bricks around the edges if I have them. On a nice winter day I pull the baggie off and add another sugar brick if they are running low. I don't feed any more syrup till spring. 

to reuse, I put blue painters tape over the slits and put them in a plastic coffee can to refill. after I lay them down on the frames I pull the tape off. My bees are such propolizers that I can't re-seal after 2/3 uses though.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Frame feeders can get cold, and that slows the bees down. Hivetop feeders are pretty much useless when it's cold, and can drip condensation off the bottom, too.

For late winter/early spring feeding, the Mountain Camp system is probably best, especially if the bees are short on stores. The sugar will clump (and it's a good idea to dampen it to make sure) and the bees will cluster directly under it at the top of the hive. The result is warm sugar coated with syrup from the condensation of water from the warm cluster in direct contact with the bees. A chunk of pollen supplement won't hurt at bit, either.

Syrup in a perforated container can be a problem with large temperature swings as it will drip out when the container warms. A gallon bucket will be OK most of the time because it covers a large area and will be heated by the cluster, but even a large bucket when only partially full can leak badly as it warms up on a sunny day. The bees will consume any syrup that drips on them, but if the volume is too large it can chill them, which is bad.

Some of the local commerical beeks around here have rigged up a refillable frame feeder that works well for them, but they don't use them until it warms up. They feed up to weight in the fall, only feed for brood stimulation in the spring, not as a substitute for fall feeding. The feeders stay in the hive all winter though, with an outside spout mechanism so they can be filled without opening the hive.

Peter


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Remist 17, (Post #22).

I have been using the inverted Bushy Mountain pail feeders for 5-6 winters and like them very much. I have never had a significant leakage problem due to either temperature or barometric pressure change. One word of caution though: when you open the lid treat it carefully and use a thick bladed putty knife all the way around, and when you close the lid lubricate the seal with water, and use a plastic or rubber mallet to carefully tap it closed.

I invert the buckets and place them over the hole in the inner cover and resting on three little wooden blocks ( 1" X 3/8"). And surrounded by a spare empty medium super. In the winter my hives are insulated on all four sides and the top with 2" rigid foam so internal temperature swings are minimized. In the colder part of the winter I also provide Lorie's sugar bricks as emergency feed.

Good luck to you this winter. Just be sure that the girls have plenty of food and a;so ventilation. 


Steve


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

In winter and very early spring, I had dry sugar (mountain camp method) on.

If you leave the cans exposed on top of your hivein early spring, sun was all heat it and cause expansion that can force syrup out.

You can prevent this by putting and empty super on top of your top box and under the inner cover to shelter your feed bucket(s).

That prevents the sun from causing leakage in the day time, and heat from the cluster prevents the can from getting as cold at night as it would if exposed.

The downside of being under cover is that once the syrup does get cold (as from an extremely cold night) the sun is not hiiting it to warm it.

It worked well for me in the Elmira, NY area...the temp swings were are a bit more than where you are.

I haven't tried bag feeders as I had cans available and they worked.

As cheap as baggies are, I try them and see how they work for you, and try cans if you don't like using the bags.


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## remist17 (Sep 29, 2014)

I know I am beating a dead horse with asking questions. I do not have alot of money to just waste on failed feeder attempts. I hope you all can understand that. I have been reading and re-reading everyones posts. There is a mixture of frame feeders, top feeders, pale feeders that we all use. This is what I am thinking on doing. Getting deep hive frame feeder so when I put the package in the bees are close to the feeder. When I add the second hive body, remove the frame feeders and go with the internal feeder. Internal feeder from Brushy mountain http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Internal-Feeder/productinfo/216/. I am assuming this sits on top of the inner cover with a supper around it then the top cover? I thought this was a good combination of qual water and pale. I will also look into the dry sugar/patties to also feed during the fall and winter. How does that sound to you all, again Im new and know nothing.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I would skip the frame feeder and the plastic one that you had a link to. Just use mason jars over the inner cover. 

Save your "bee bucks" for something else.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

If money is an issue, then baggie feeders are the best choice. Cheap and effective.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

remist17 said:


> I know I am beating a dead horse with asking questions. I do not have alot of money to just waste on failed feeder attempts. I hope you all can understand that. I have been reading and re-reading everyones posts. There is a mixture of frame feeders, top feeders, pale feeders that we all use. This is what I am thinking on doing. Getting deep hive frame feeder so when I put the package in the bees are close to the feeder. When I add the second hive body, remove the frame feeders and go with the internal feeder. Internal feeder from Brushy mountain http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Internal-Feeder/productinfo/216/.* I am assuming this sits on top of the inner cover with a supper around it then the top cover? * I thought this was a good combination of qual water and pale. I will also look into the dry sugar/patties to also feed during the fall and winter. How does that sound to you all, again Im new and know nothing.



If its cold out the use of an inner cover would most surely impede the bees from recovering the syrup. If its below 50 degrees its best to have the "source" within 3/8 inch + - of the top bars containing the bees.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Remist17,

If you are challenged by limited resources I would suggest you use one or the other of the feeders you propose and sugar bricks as an emergency feeding backup. All of those options will reduce/prevent robbing is the colony is strong.

Steve


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## remist17 (Sep 29, 2014)

thank you again all. I was leaning away from the mason jar feeders in the early spring for fear of leaking in the hive. Am I just being overly worried? I guess I may have read to much and thought to much. Im on a limited budget but also want to give the bees the best chance of surviving. 

So what I have read on this thread. 
- What ever I am feeding keep on top of the frames and not on the inner cover for the first part of the spring when I put the package in.
- Pale feeders can leak if there are large temperature range
- frame feeders may drown bees even with ladders, and can get cold if far from bees
- Baggie feeder is cheap and works. 

SO I guess we just need to make a decision and get some type of feeders. I am going to look into the baggie feeder and maybe frame feeders to start out. Any other helpful advise is welcome. I am really interested to hear from people with similar weather regarding the pale/ mason jar leaking/


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

IMHO, you are over thinking the feeding issue. Each method has its advantages and disadvantages, with a lot of that being personal circumstances and preference. There is no one method is that is clearly superior over everything else for everyone.

You probably already have baggies on hand in the kitchen. Thus there is little upfront cost to give them a try. Use them for awhile and you will start to understand their pluses and minuses, and can then make a decision on whether to try something else and what that "something else" should be.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

shinbone said:


> IMHO, you are over thinking the feeding issue. Each method has its advantages and disadvantages, with a lot of that being personal circumstances and preference. There is no one method is that is clearly superior over everything else for everyone.
> 
> You probably already have baggies on hand in the kitchen. Thus there is little upfront cost to give them a try. Use them for awhile and you will start to understand their pluses and minuses, and can then make a decision on whether to try something else and what that "something else" should be.


Amen!


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## Buckybee (Jan 24, 2011)

I have always fed with super covered mason jars spring and fall and have never had sticky bees or anything close to it. I use them on everything from 5 frame mini nucs on up to 10 frame singles. I have tried and still own about every type feeder made and they all work fine, but the inverted jars have become my feeder of choice over time...quick and easy. Its also a good way to monitor intake.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

remist17 said:


> I ma getting ready for my first year with bees and need to purchase feeders.I see there top feeders and frame feeders. I am torn on which one to use. I like the top feeders since I do not need to go into the hives but I understand the importance of frame feeders in early spring when the cluster may not move to the top feeders. Could you please point out the pros and cons of these and suggestions on what I should do?
> 
> Thanks


I have been using the frame feeders for a while now but I'm looking forward to the day that I can go back to the hive top feeder. 

Frame feeder has some pros to it under certian cercumstances but I'll just state some cons here. They take up a frame space. They will need floats or folded screening to prevent drowning unless you have those new feeder hole ones. If the cluster isn't near it, they'll ignore the feed unless you move the feeder over to it or the cluster to the feeder, either way is a job. you have to open the hive to pour in the feed, even if just shuffling the inner cover over to expose the feeder. they have a tendency to warp given time. the bees will draw comb in it if left in over the production season.

Hive top feeders have cons to them...I think but I'll just mention the pros here. easy access to feed. They will need floats too unless you have the telescoping screen over the feeder entrance. the cluster keeps the feed warm. No mussing around with frames. They hold more syrup. They are to set up and remove.

Anyway, I liked the hive top feeder better for my production hives when I had them.

EDIT: The price factor may figure into but since you're contemplating either of the feeders. The frame feeder may cost a quarter the price of the hive top feeder but both can be made cheaper if you're into wood working. in the making of them, the hive top feeder is more complicated to make but will work out to being a better deal in the end. In custom making the hive top feeder, you can make them a little deeper too, if you wish.


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## remist17 (Sep 29, 2014)

thank you all. I decided to stick with the mason jars and baggies. One last question I promise ! Is it better to buy the jar tops pre-punched or make my own? If I make my own I have the mason jar lids and rings. I heard you can use brad nails and punch 6 holes in them. I would like to hear how others do the holes and if it is worth just buying the prepunched. Brushymountain has a pack of 5 for 2 dollars.
Again thank you all for your comments and patience with me !!!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

remist17 said:


> thank you all. I decided to stick with the mason jars and baggies. One last question I promise ! Is it better to buy the jar tops pre-punched or make my own? If I make my own I have the mason jar lids and rings. I heard you can use brad nails and punch 6 holes in them. I would like to hear how others do the holes and if it is worth just buying the prepunched. Brushymountain has a pack of 5 for 2 dollars.
> Again thank you all for your comments and patience with me !!!



Make your own.... Go small... go many!!!!!!!!!


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Agree with Honey4all. I use a push pin held with needle nose pliers with the lid on an end grain block of wood and punched from the inside outward. The burr helps provide a foothold for the bees.

Steve


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