# Newbee questions - So. Cal.



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

The cover shouldn't make a difference.
There are people in snow country that leave the screened bottom boards open all winter. I never close mine.
Best solution I have found for ants would be to put the legs in tuna cans with a little used motor oil in the cans. I've tried a few different methods & this has been the most reliable for me so far.


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

KQ6AR said:


> The cover shouldn't make a difference.
> There are people in snow country that leave the screened bottom boards open all winter. I never close mine.
> Best solution I have found for ants would be to put the legs in tuna cans with a little used motor oil in the cans. I've tried a few different methods & this has been the most reliable for me so far.


Thanks. The motor oil was the first thing I tried but I couldn't handle seeing so many bees dying in it. Have you ever tried cinnamon around the legs? That was suggested to me.


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## doug reed (Feb 1, 2014)

Hi
I'm south of you in North San Diego Co. I've used telescoping lids with inner covers on all our hives. They are easier to maintain and if it ever rains here again, waterproof. The inner cover also lets you have a kind of preview through the center, or to put a couple puffs of smoke before lifting the cover.
As for screened bottomboards. That question always gets alot of pro and con opinions. I built a couple this year and will make up my own mind. The advantages in our area seem compelling.
As for ants. They are a constant bother. Last year I built some long pipe stands on two legs out of 1 1/2 inch galvanized pipe and before I set them in cement I slid on two rubber pipe reducers of different sizes so that one could cover the other without touching and filled the lower one with mineral oil. They come with screw clamps to hold them in place. The upper reducer keeps the bees and rain out. They work great if you keep the weeds and sticks from becoming a ladder to the main part of the stand. Like the previous post I got tired of drowned bees etc.


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

Thanks, Doug. I'm not particularly handy but it gives me something to think about. Maybe I can figure something out along those lines.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I find Screen boards make ant problems worse. With solids, the bees propolize every crack, and ants are required to attempt a front entrance. With screens, the colony has no physical defense to ant invasion.

Which raises the question, "why use a Screen board at all ?" Los Angeles should not have small hive beetles. What cools a hive is evaporation of water, with the "swamp cooler" air being drawn through the brood frames. A bottom screen short-circuits the air flow, and frantically fanning bees at the entrance are just drawing dry air from below the hive. If hives have water or drying nectar, and a flow path for air to flow over the water, the bees can cool the core in any but the most extreme heat *and* humidity.

Screen Bottoms make hive monitoring easy -- you can detect all sorts of hive conditions by looking at the frass and drop. Where today's eggs are being laid (some always drop on to the board). Where pupa are hatching (look for antenna casts). What types are pollen are being stored and where. And, how many mites are in the hive.

I don't feel that Screen Bottoms materially affect the population explosion of mites in August and September.

The small Argentine sugar ants that bother southern California hives are a difficult issue. You can move the hives -- not every location has these ants. They are worse when hives are being fed, but once induced by feeding, they remain "on target". A sheet of coroplex or ply under the hive with tanglefoot on bottom rim makes a relatively bee-safe barrier.

The oil (cooking oil works too) barriers require constant maintenance, or high cost construction. 

Let us know if you have sufficient summer surplus to build foundationless comb. In my region of San Luis Obispo county (with few suburban landscape sources), comb building surplus nectar is a short and abrupt spring season. Summer comb only comes from feed or the erratic years when Toyon blooms. Much of the theory of foundationless comes from areas with continuing summer nectar flows. An urban Los Angeles location may resemble this so let us know.


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

JWChesnut said:


> I find Screen boards make ant problems worse. With solids, the bees propolize every crack, and ants are required to attempt a front entrance. With screens, the colony has no physical defense to ant invasion.
> 
> Which raises the question, "why use a Screen board at all ?" Los Angeles should not have small hive beetles. What cools a hive is evaporation of water, with the "swamp cooler" air being drawn through the brood frames. A bottom screen short-circuits the air flow, and frantically fanning bees at the entrance are just drawing dry air from below the hive. If hives have water or drying nectar, and a flow path for air to flow over the water, the bees can cool the core in any but the most extreme heat *and* humidity.
> 
> ...


JW, thanks for your response. I installed the screened bottom board because in my beekeeping class I observed the beekeeper testing for varroa mites (one of his hives had them) and did some research on the internet, learning about the different ways to try to control them naturally, including regressing the bees, which I'm trying to do now, and screened bottom boards. I am in the process of trying to swap out large cell tall box frames for small cell medium frames, and I overbought foundationless frames (ordered 50 rather than 5). The last time I replaced large cell frames, I alternated between foundationless and small cell foundation guides that cover about a third of the frame, so that's what's in there now. I'm going to do an inspection this weekend and hope it's not disastrous.

Right now I decided to use cinnamon around the feet and so far no ants, but if I notice ants poking around I think I will try the tanglefoot. Thanks for the tip. 

In terms of feeding, my yard backs against chaparral hillsides and the "flow" seems to be on - still lots of mustard, deerweed and sage -- and last time I checked, they were making stores. I did get a feeder to give the bees as soon as it dries up. I'm also planting natives in my yard and some of them are in bloom - also my street has lots of gardens, so I think they're ok for now. But thank you so much for your thoughtful post!!!


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Stoney, I've used cinnamon successfully to deal with ants also. 
Regarding treatment free, a lot of us find our greatest success by using bees that have never been treated, rather than trying to wean our bees off treatments for mites. There seems to be a very expensive "learning curve" to change the bees habits (genetics?) so they can be treatment free. There should be breeders out west who produce truly treatment free bees. You might want to give serious consideration to requeening with one of their queens. Six weeks later your hive is treatment free! :thumbsup: I've used such bees for 9 years, absolutely no mite treatments, colonies survive, and I get good honey crops. Something to think about.
Kindest regards,
Steven


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

StevenG said:


> Stoney, I've used cinnamon successfully to deal with ants also.
> Regarding treatment free, a lot of us find our greatest success by using bees that have never been treated, rather than trying to wean our bees off treatments for mites. There seems to be a very expensive "learning curve" to change the bees habits (genetics?) so they can be treatment free. There should be breeders out west who produce truly treatment free bees. You might want to give serious consideration to requeening with one of their queens. Six weeks later your hive is treatment free! :thumbsup: I've used such bees for 9 years, absolutely no mite treatments, colonies survive, and I get good honey crops. Something to think about.
> Kindest regards,
> Steven


Steven, thanks for letting me know. My bees are so sweet I don't think I could bear to requeen them. So far I've been checking the sticky board and haven't seen any mites yet so fingers crossed (I have found moths in there and have shaken them out a distance away). I'm fairly certain though that the bees didn't come from a treatment-free breeder. I'm still very green when it comes to beekeeping, but I'll do some research and find a treatment free breeder just in case something happens to her. 

And good to know that cinnamon has worked for you! Do you recommend sprinkling it around the base or making a bell shape around the hive and surrounding area?

Also, just in the past few days I've noticed some small flies or gnats buzzing around the entrance and the bees seem to be piling up on both sides of the entrance, almost blocking it, maybe to keep them out? Does anyone know if this is normal?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I've started with cinnamon sprinkled on the inner cover. If that isn't enough, the second time I treat the inner cover and also sprinkle a band of cinnamon around the colony. That seems to have worked. I'm working on two hives in two different locations with some big black ants. 

No experience with small flies or gnats.
Regards,
Steven


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

My point of view on screened bottom boards is different. I must have 50 of them, & use them. 
If only 3% of mites fall of the bees I'm happy with any natural help I can get.
Since my hive stands have ant protection the SBB don't make any difference in ant intrusions.


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

Thanks, Steven and KQ6AR.

Now I'm starting to worry that my bees are being robbed. They've been crowding around the top and bottom of the entrance for about a week. I have noticed a lot of young bees possibly taking orientation flights, but today I did see what might be wrestling on the landing area. I'll try to take a picture or a video and post it.

I've been reading threads here about robbing and I'm still not completely sure that's what's happening, but do think I should put a robbing screen on it just to be safe?


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Mann Lake $16.95 Click Link or make your own simple interim one- Click Link


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Gnats and Flies ?? The only time I see bot flies in my hive is when a mouse nest has died. The tiny Fungus gnats and fruit flies are attracted to rotting syrup. Is the hive actually viable? Is the reported activity simply robbing out after the hive has died?

I would be surprised if the hive is not being robbed. We are in a historic drought.

If the hive is queenright but weak, the robbing needs to be ended immediately. A robbing frenzy may kill the queen in a day. You can move the hive and the robbers will need to relocate the dessert dish . In the meantime, you can close the hive for a day with screen. Then reopen it with a robber screen in place. The theory of robbing screens is the robbers are drawn to the scent, and the house bees locate the serpentine entrance free of attractant scent. Window screen, a stapler, and a bit of cardboard can fabricate a workable model. The key features: lots of "scent area" to keep the robbers interested and focused, and an entrance behind a solid cover (so the scent is deflected). The entrance can be remarkably small, the returning foragers will queue up nicely on the passage.


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

Thanks both of you. 

I put on a makeshift screen this morning (like the interim one dynemd posted) and ordered the below screen from Brushy Mountain. But is the Mann Lake one better?









JW, when you say close the hive, you mean actually trap the bees inside for a whole day with a screen? Or with escape areas for them? I'll open it up when I get home to see if I can locate the queen. I do know they're still a viable hive, hopefully the damage hasn't been too bad yet.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Stone
The idea is to exclude the robbers, and break their imprinting on the resource. 
Moving the hive works by making the resource hard to find, and requires the robbers to reorient.
Closing the hive up also gives the colony time to repair the damage and reorganize. If the honey is recapped, the odor and scent is less.

The closed hive needs water and a beach towel draped in a bucket to wick water, and placed where the bee inside can lick it works. I expect you can make this work with your screened bottom.

I have this issue with recently queened nucs -- they are like sitting ducks to the bad bees. These are frequently being fed syrup and sub, and that draws the robbers like crazy.


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

I did get the bees initially as a package - five frames of brood, honey and bees. Right now I'm in the process of trying to get rid of the old frames and replace with new ones. 

For the water, would I just string the wet towel into the entrance? 

When I got home today I realized my makeshift screen was a failure. I took it off but here are some pictures. I didn't see any wrestling, but I did see larger bees flying in and out that might be drones from my own hive or intruders. Can you guys please take a look and tell me what you see?

With the screen:








Without the screen:








Drones?








Adding a video.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Not robbing.
You see bees fanning (to cool hive). 
You see bees washboarding (no idea what drive washboarding, but perhaps the cedar stimulates it).

The larger bees are drones, and drones drift from hive to hive. Sometimes the prescence of queen cells draw them in, but an active hive is going to be visited.


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

That's a relief. I think I'll still put the screen cover on when it gets here just to keep them protected until they're stronger -- do you think that's a good idea? 

I posted this question to you in the other forum but is it normal for some of them to sleep outside? The is the first time I've seen it happen. It could be that a bunch of bees hatched so maybe they're crowded? I just ordered two mediums but they haven't gotten here yet.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

If you've got a group of bees outside all night you're hive could be too crowded. Take a look inside to see how much free room they have and add a super as needed.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Hi Stoney
I am in Santa Monica - you are welcome to visit and see my bees. My bees are treated with love. No other treatment permitted  I use screened bottoms and telescopic covers, but the truth is - if bees are healthy, they are doing great with and without fancy gadgets. I agree with somebody posted above that it is difficult (if possible) to make TF bees from treated stock. PM me if you want to come over. Sergey


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

With robbing you would have seen a lot of fighting, & dead bees.
As others said they just look a little hot, SSB might help


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

Thanks everyone. I opened the hive and found they'd built lots of crazy burr comb. I cut it out and put in a couple of fresh frames and will add new mediums tomorrow. It was pretty traumatic for the bees, but hopefully will help them in the long run.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

From the video looks like they're doing fine, a nice normal hive. You mentioned installing a screen over the entrance, if you've not yet done it, I would not. Absolutely no indication of robbing in that video. 
Good luck with them!


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

Thanks, Steven. I have a screen coming but I won't put it on unless I see signs of robbing. I think I figured out what was wrong - there was some empty space and they'd spun crazy looping comb in it, right near the entrance.

cerezha, I looked at the pictures in your other thread and your bees look great!


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

Stoney said:


> Right now I decided to use cinnamon around the feet and so far no ants, but if I notice ants poking around I think I will try the tanglefoot. Thanks for the tip.


I had hordes of ants running into my hive during the first week after my cutout until I finally put tanglefoot on the legs of the hive stand. Now I have zero ants. So I'll give a thumbs up on the tanglefoot. I bought mine at Armstrong.


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

Thanks, Waterbug. And the Tanglefoot won't hurt the bees?


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

^^

Not that I've seen. Tanglefoot doesn't smell like food, so the bees aren't attracted to it. It's also several feet from the entrance to the hive, so there's no reason for the bees to be anywhere near it.

I do get a few drowned bees in the birdbath I provided them for water; I need to put a couple of rocks in there for them to stand on.

I think you and I were both at Bill's Bee Yard last weekend, and you were very worried about squishing bees when going into your hive. I think that's something we beginners just need to get comfortable with as we gain experience--there's a unavoidable casualty rate with just about every aspect of hive management. We can learn to minimize it, but agonizing over the death of a bee or two is just going to drive you crazy.

I (and many others) think of the hive as the organism (or super-organism) and of individual bees as something akin to skin cells. I take care to kill as few as possible, but I acknowledge that I will kill some finite amount just because I can't avoid it, or because it's for the betterment of the hive (e.g. mite sampling).

Are you a physician? Or am I confusing you with someone else? You could think of opening the hive as drawing a blood sample. The damage is minimal, and you don't want to do it every day, but it's a good thing to do on a regular basis to keep the macro organism healthy.


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> ^^
> 
> Not that I've seen. Tanglefoot doesn't smell like food, so the bees aren't attracted to it. It's also several feet from the entrance to the hive, so there's no reason for the bees to be anywhere near it.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that was me.  Not a physician, though. The bee squashing still happens every time I open the hive but I'm getting a little better at minimizing it, and thanks for the advice about how to look at it.  OK, for the ants, I guess I'll wait till they become a problem and then try the tanglefoot. Thanks!

OK, more questions for the beekeepers.

This week, the issue is moths (I assume wax moths) getting into the SBB. I take it out every day and usually see a moth or two. A couple of times I have seen a larva. I've just been dumping/scraping them out of there, but should I be worried?

There's also a little bee that has come to the hive for the last four or five days. He's always trying to get in and my bees are always chasing him off. I'm not sure what kind of bee he is or what he's after. Anyone know?















Second, since I added two medium supers the bees have more room but some spent the night on the porch again, so I searched around this forum and figured they must need some ventilation (the days are 80-90+ here). I put popsicle sticks under the top board and just want to make sure this is right.









Last, I'm transitioning from large cell tall frames to small cell medium frames, so I've been pulling out tall LC frames, but I still have four left inside. They all have brood on them. I moved them up into the two new medium supers and put a queen excluder between the two sets of boxes. I searched for the queen to try to make sure she didn't end up in the top, but I couldn't find her, so I will keep an eye on the new frames in the top boxes to see if they end up with any brood in them and then try to find her again. I also put some honey frames in the top boxes but mostly new frames.









Does this seem reasonable or could I inadvertently be hurting the hive or provoking them to abscond or anything? Any help or advice would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi Stoney, Wax moths aren't a problem unless you're hive is very weak.
I use sticks under my telescoping covers also. 12 month a year for me, ventilation is even important in the winter for letting warm moist air out.
Supers of undrawn foundation should be added one at a time, if drawn adding 2 at once is ok.
The larger cell frames can even be used as outside frames for honey storage, you don't have to change them all at once. After moving to small cell, the larger ones can still be used in the honey supers. I think they extract easier. With high temps & low humidity honey tends to be very thick.

Sounds like you're doing fine.


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

Thanks, Dan. Everything seems to have settled down for the moment so I think it's crisis averted.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Stoney said:


> Should I get a telescoping cover for winter?


A telescoping cover won't fit over that type of cover, so you'd need an inner cover too. Since you're in a very mild climate, I'd say, no, you don't. A telescoping cover is an excellent solution for situations where there is a large amount of precipitation or snow sitting on top of the hive and melting, keeping the lid wet. In my humble opinion, you're fine.




Stoney said:


> Will a screened bottom board be too cold for them in winter?


I do not recommend screened bottom boards at all. And again with your mild climate, they should be fine. SBBs however produce far too much ventilation, don't work as a mite control method, and even if they did, should not be necessary for bees to survive. They should be able to do it on their own.




Stoney said:


> Is there a good way to keep ants off the hive?


You could let the bees deal with the problem on their own, or you could provide some sort of physical barrier, like placing the legs of your stand in buckets of water. I have always just let the bees deal with it.


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

My bees swarmed, most likely because of my many idiotic mistakes. I now have only about enough bees to fill two medium frames, plus the queen (I've spotted her twice). I've been feeding them honeycomb from a local beekeeper for the past two weeks and when I looked yesterday, they looked like they had honey and were building up their pollen. 

There are besieged by potential robbers but I reduced the entrance to just a little over bee-sized (I'm using a screen as an entrance reducer) and they seem to be defending the hive pretty well. I think there's still a flow here and I'm going to continue to feed them.

My question is: can they survive with so few bees? If try to get some capped brood from a local beekeeper, will they be able to hatch? Is there some other way I can help them? Any advice would be appreciated!


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

In South Calif, tiny clusters can survive. They need a compact home,such as a mating nuc, and unlimited syrup and sub. More likely is that they will succumb in the first wet days of December. Heroic efforts are most often wasted.

November and December are the very hardest months in So Cal, and nothing about this story gives me any confidence that the bees will make a miraculous recovery.

Unless the nurse bees can cover the brood, they will simply cannibalize it for protein. Adding excess brood capped or not is ineffective in small clusters.

You haven't explained how you hive went to a small (<3000) bee population. Did they swarm multiple times (swarm out), or are you mistaking the typical "varroa" crash for post- swarming condition.


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

JWChesnut said:


> In South Calif, tiny clusters can survive. They need a compact home,such as a mating nuc, and unlimited syrup and sub. More likely is that they will succumb in the first wet days of December. Heroic efforts are most often wasted.
> 
> November and December are the very hardest months in So Cal, and nothing about this story gives me any confidence that the bees will make a miraculous recovery.
> 
> ...


Thanks for responding, JWChestnut. I have them in 2 medium boxes now - I guess I should reduce it to one? 

They definitely swarmed. I made the hive way too big, among other bungles. I didn't check them for a couple of weeks while I was out of town, so probably multiple swarms. There have never been a lot of dead bees on the ground or in the hive.

We're in the middle of a drought right now, so rain might not be coming for a while and it's still pretty warm. If rain comes and they're still alive, can I keep giving them honey to get them through the rainy days? 

Also, can I give them pollen from the health food store? Or should I buy those pollen patties? Can I put a blanket over the hive to help them keep warm? Will anything help?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Pollen in commercial sub has been irradiated to prevent the transmission of disease. Health store pollen (which is going to be xx times more costly) is not. 

Definitely size the hive box to the population. A small population needs a small box.

In So Cal, the bees are not going to freeze out, instead you get the diseases that seem to accompany moist, chilled brood such as chalk brood. Nosema builds up -- but not in the dysentary symptom of winter hives, but in bees that stay on the landing board or wander onto the ground (like crawlers that don't crawl away). California deaths from fast acting fall Nosema may exceed mite mortality, and it hits the weak hives first.

Many of the diseases that accompany a "PMS" sickness do not result in noticeable dead bees, you get crawlers and the yellow jackets remove them as they succumb. Only in the final terminal stages do dead bees occur in the hive.


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## Stoney (May 26, 2014)

JWChesnut said:


> Pollen in commercial sub has been irradiated to prevent the transmission of disease. Health store pollen (which is going to be xx times more costly) is not.
> 
> Definitely size the hive box to the population. A small population needs a small box.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info, JWChestnut. I'm going to read up on those illnesses to see what I can do to prevent them, and take your advice. Fingers crossed. I really don't want to lose this little colony. They've shown a lot of heart so far and I don't want to let them down. Thanks so much!


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

So how's your hive doing? I nearly killed mine , and I'm desperately trying to revive it, now.


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