# Should I collect pollen now to feed thru Winter?



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beesintrees said:


> My question is: should I try trapping pollen from them now to save it for the bees to feed them the pollen during the Winter?


Bees make better beekeepers than beekeepers make bees. Don't try to do anything about their pollen stores, they are doing it themselves. They have been doing what they do for millions of years.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

I don't and never saw a need. Maybe I just don't know but I don't think the girls need much pollen in winter as they arn't rearing much brood. My hives have pretty good pollen stores right now. If there is open comb they will pack it in and make bee bread.


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Don't try to do anything about their pollen stores, they are doing it themselves. They have been doing what they do for millions of years.


OK thanks,

bnt


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

burns375 said:


> I don't and never saw a need. Maybe I just don't know but I don't think the girls need much pollen in winter as they arn't rearing much brood. My hives have pretty good pollen stores right now. If there is open comb they will pack it in and make bee bread.


Thanks,

For a newbie to think outside the box, inside the box, about the box and about what's going on all around the box all at the same time gets a little confusing. That's good information about the feeding of brood. I forgot that part of the equation.


I'm happy your hives are doing well with pollen stores etc. The thing is because I have so little experience I don't know how much stores my hive needs. I've read that some hives will need 100 lbs of honey for Winter. And part of my concern is because the hive is only about a month old and the swarm was caused by a disaster for the bees. Their hive was displaced due to clearing land for a tree farm.

My research tells me that for my bees Winter starts in November. That's two months away. But its been very dry and doesn't look to rain much before the Winter rains start.

What do I look for to have good clues about whether each hive will survive the oncoming Winter. Do I count how many of my frames are covered with bees and do some sort of calculation for the amount of honey and pollen they should have based on that?


Thanks,
bnt


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Cool great thinking there. 

Ask local beekeepers. I do not know the wintering requirements or season in your area. You want atleast a minimum amount of capped stores going into winter. 

How much pollen and honey stores do they have?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Think about it, why trap pollen from them now to feed back in a couple months, they're already putting it in the hive.... If you had drawn comb for the supers that would be better. Either way, feed them more, get whatever comb/syrup stored and you can equalize the stores later by moving frames of syrup/honey around. I don't know when your first freeze sets in, but you can encourage some extra brooding with some pollen sub to boost populations to get more comb drawn in the next couple months.


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> Think about it, why trap pollen from them now to feed back in a couple months, they're already putting it in the hive.... If you had drawn comb for the supers that would be better. Either way, feed them more, get whatever comb/syrup stored and you can equalize the stores later by moving frames of syrup/honey around. I don't know when your first freeze sets in, but you can encourage some extra brooding with some pollen sub to boost populations to get more comb drawn in the next couple months.



Actually, thinking about it is the reason I asked the question. I think I should have thought longer before posting. First thing is - as previously stated - this is my first Summer to have bees. I'm a rank beginner. Maybe it would have been better to have started with drawn comb or foundation, but I didn't do that and what I have now is as I described originally. I can't go back in time, but maybe I can do different next year. So what I'm trying to do now is to deal with what I have now. 

I only have what the bees have made so far as described previously. I used foundationless frames, so that's what I have now to deal with. I have no pollen from any other sources. I'll research pollen sub. Thanks for that suggestion.

So, as you suggested about manipulating honey/syrup stores, I'm wondering how I should manipulate their practices of bringing in pollen or if that's possible, like its possible with their other stores.

I guess I didn't ask the question the right way. I don't know whether bees have a preset amount of pollen which they will absolutely load into frames no matter how long it takes them to do it or whether they will bring pollen into the hive for only a certain amount of time each day. Maybe by around Noon they do have their quota. 

That's part of how I should have asked the question because I just don't know. The more I think about it I suspect they coordinate as the need arises rather than banking stores like people do. People trap pollen for their pocketbooks, so what the heck could it hurt to trap it for the bees use later?

I'm feeding 1:1 for the last two weeks. It helped the older hive build up 4 frames of comb in their super. I think that was the right move at this time. I have been thinking I'll stop feeding if goldenrod ever starts blooming. Its very dry for the last month. 

Maybe my feeding has them confused. They're not looking to me like they're going to be ready for Winter. The younger hive has only 8 frames filled. Those frames are a combination of brood, honey and pollen. I don't now, but to me that doesn't sound like a hive that's well prepared when its only about 6 weeks until Winter. Freeze date is probably middle of November. 

But, bees can be manipulated in some ways, so I was wondering if manipulation of their pollen gathering was a possibility. 

Just a short while ago I searched "Almanac" and the prediction for this coming Winter is that it will be a hard one. I rarely ever want to do just enough to get by. I prefer to be well prepared. 

OK, so I didn't start with foundation nor drawn comb. So, the bees might be in trouble. Maybe they'd have been better left in the metal tank, where their hive was, which was about to be mangled by the land clearing machine. Somehow I don't think so. So, I intervened hoping I could give them a better shot at surviving. So, I'm just trrying to find out early enough if I can do something to better prepare the bees between now and Winter. I stated my parallel North & South (33rd parallel) as well as my Winter observations from past years in my first post. 

What I was thinking - and what I am thinking - is how to be sure that I give them the best chance so they'll have enough pollen. I read regularly that bees don't always have enough stores (because of people robbing them mainly) and that they have to be fed during Winter. I've read that they sometimes need more honey and that sometimes they need more pollen than they brought in. (Pollen robbed by people?) Who knows? Don;t get me wrong I'm not anti-commercial by any means. I'm just trying to make the point that maybe bees are capable of bringing in more pollen than is "absolutely" necessary for their survival.

I also read that bees sometimes get confused about conditions outside the hive. Sometimes the bees think there's a honey flow on because they're being fed while there's a dearth and when its late in the nectar season. When that happens they make more brood than they should. Also, the do need a certain number of brood to generate the necessary heat for survival. I don't know what that number is. (Number of frames, that is.)

I'm trying to find out if - maybe trapping the pollen away from them now "MIGHT" make them bring in that "pre-programmed" amount of pollen even if they have to bring pollen into the hive for a longer amount of time during the day. 

If they are only going to bring pollen for a certain amount of time each day and stop bringing it in- then trapping pollen from them now is most definitely a waste of effort, materials, my time and their time *plus* it might somehow cause other problems I haven't yet heard of or read about.

I have just been noticing that they quit bringing in pollen near a certain time of day and didn't know if they just reached their pre-programmed quota or if they would bring it on for longer if I trap it so that there's not enough of it in the cells and they'll just do more work to get it on the cells.

Maybe I should go ahead and make a pollen trap while there's time to manipulate their pollen harvesting habit if that's possible. That might be better than doing nothing. Then, if it was a waste of materials and time at least I'll have the trapped pollen to give them later. In fact, that's what I'm going to do. That is unless someone tells me in no uncertain terms that its a very BIG mistake.

I guess this thread was an opportunity for me to think out loud. I have no local bee guru to talk things over with.

Thanks to everyone for the input,
bnt


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

burns375 said:


> Cool great thinking there.
> 
> Ask local beekeepers. I do not know the wintering requirements or season in your area. You want atleast a minimum amount of capped stores going into winter.
> 
> How much pollen and honey stores do they have?



Hi burns375,

The only active local beek I know of is so busy juggling about 4 professions that he meets his tail lights when he goes in a different direction. I can't catch up with him.

Last autumn I joined a bee club that's about an hour drive one way. Last few times I emailed for guidance the club was non-responsive. I fired them. I must be a real iron head. lol

I've decided to research and build a pollen trap. If the collection turns out to be a wash, then I'll still have their pollen. If they bring in pollen for longer periods of time during the day it will be a gain for us all.

The older hive has 8 frames of brood mixed with stores and before I started feeding they were hung up on having 4 frames of honey in the super. After I started feeding 1:1 they added another 4 frames of sugar honey. The younger hive has only 8 frames of brood, mixed just about like the other hive.

Thanks for the input and suggestions,
bnt


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

This may be a dumb question, but I was wondering if anyone had tried to collect pollen themselves to feed to the bees? The people with thousands of hives are probably laughing, but It seems like it might be worthwhile for a couple hives. I was thinking maybe cattails. You could cut the heads off and shake them in a bucket. They make a lot of pollen. Maybe some kinds of weeds. Corn?


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

Since you have two hives, you could experiment with one and see if you can tell if they keep bringing in more. I just started this year, so don't know more than you, but I do believe in experimenting.


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## Glen H (Aug 17, 2013)

Kenww said:


> This may be a dumb question, but I was wondering if anyone had tried to collect pollen themselves to feed to the bees? The people with thousands of hives are probably laughing, but It seems like it might be worthwhile for a couple hives. I was thinking maybe cattails. You could cut the heads off and shake them in a bucket. They make a lot of pollen. Maybe some kinds of weeds. Corn?


I've read about people collecting pollen from cattails by sharking it into a bag. But they were getting it for their own use in baking!?!? Not sure if anyone feeds it to bees?
Apparently it is easy to collect.
Here is a video of collection. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0XBlPROtz8


Glen


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## Glen H (Aug 17, 2013)

Double post


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

BNT, no way you need 100 lbs in your neck of the woods... es winter starts in NOV, but spring starts in Jan. and with your warm climate you can actually feed thru the winter. 

AS for feeding back pollen... you guys ever hear of pollen patties? (yes i know most have little or no pollen anymore) as for types. I don't think cattail and I know corn are of little nutrional value... but hey have some fun!


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

Kenww said:


> This may be a dumb question, but I was wondering if anyone had tried to collect pollen themselves to feed to the bees? The people with thousands of hives are probably laughing, but It seems like it might be worthwhile for a couple hives. I was thinking maybe cattails. You could cut the heads off and shake them in a bucket. They make a lot of pollen. Maybe some kinds of weeds. Corn?


Kenww;998948,

Let the commercial guys laugh. They probably need a few chuckles because of dealing with so much CCD and their other major bee troubles.

I might never have thought about trying that manual pollen gathering. But in my neck of the woods there's certain times of the year when pine pollen could be gathered in bucket loads by just wiping it off enough vehicles. (Maybe that's a little exaggeration.) 

Some people wake up in the mornings believing they have a yellow car after they bought a black one and kids get a big kick from writing messages in the pollen with their fingers. (That's NO exaggeration.) Same thing for Cedar trees. There's times I've seen Cedar pollen so thick that I thought the tree was on fire and I was just seeing the smoke while the wind was blowing. I have no clue as to its use for bees or of its quality for their purpose. If those pollens are worthwhile for bees they could sure get a bumber crop of it during those times.


And on your other reply, I have two hives side by side. You're right experimentation will answer some of my questions. My only problem with the pollen traps is that my SHB traps would be interrupted for whatever amount of time the pollen traps were in place. But I could alternate days with each kind of trap to keep the SHB from gaining a new foothold.

Thanks for the input,
bnt


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

Glen H said:


> I've read about people collecting pollen from cattails by sharking it into a bag. But they were getting it for their own use in baking!?!? Not sure if anyone feeds it to bees?
> Apparently it is easy to collect.
> Here is a video of collection.
> 
> ...


Hi Glen,

Thanks for the link. That was educational and entertaining. Following the other links at the edge of the youtube page shows some other ways to use cattails for people food. Also, the long leaves could be used rot basket making or making cordage for woods crafts. Anyway, one might want to try the cattail pollen as a closed experiment to prevent any possible harm to the bees. My guess is that cattail pollen would be just as useful to the bees as most other pollens, but I don't know that. 

Thanks again,
bnt


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

gmcharlie said:


> BNT, no way you need 100 lbs in your neck of the woods... es winter starts in NOV, but spring starts in Jan. and with your warm climate you can actually feed thru the winter.
> 
> AS for feeding back pollen... you guys ever hear of pollen patties? (yes i know most have little or no pollen anymore) as for types. I don't think cattail and I know corn are of little nutrional value... but hey have some fun!


Hi gmCharlie,

Thanks for the post. I didn't think my area would require 100#, but there's a lot I don't know. Thanks for confirming that for me. Thanks for reminding me that my Winter won't be intolerably long, and that mostly they're pretty mild. Most of my Winters are pretty mild, but ya never know down here. I've seen the wind chill at minus 18F (a freak weather week) and just one short week later you could be comfortable wearing just a T-shirt. Then, the next week it was freezing again.

So, since my Spring starts in January maybe I should have put out my lure boxes 3 or 4 months earlier. Just kidding. ((-:

Yup I herd 'bout them thar pollen patties - but ain't the main ingredient - uh -"pollen" lol. 
I looked up recipes for both P patties and P substitutes and found out that pollen "substitute" requires no pollen, so that's what I might need if I can't get enough actual pollen some other way. 

Say, while we're on the subject of the recipe for pollen substitute, one of the ingredients for the recipe I found is soy flour. A few days ago I looked up a recipe for a CD style SHB trap bait and one ingredient was soy flour. I couldn't find soy, so I went back to reading and learned that the soy was meant for the folks wanting to go all natural and that regular wheat flour was OK in that recipe. [As a side note] I also read that soy flour has some detractors for human consumption. Not sure what that means for bees, but I also saw on the recipe that regular flour is also OK for pollen substitute if I need it. Actually neither flour is grand for human use according to some sources. But, too much water and you're a goner, too. 

Of course, what you're telling me sir is, "Relax, Son, it ain't as dark as you first thought it might get."

Thanks for the input Charlie. I can relax a little now and put off making the P substitute until its needed. 

bnt


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

You've gotten some good advice thus far - let me add my two cents...

It is way too late in the season to be collecting pollen *within the hive* for use as supplemental feed. You could I suppose collect pollen directly from plants like Golden Rod and Aster but that would be time consuming.

The pollen requirements of the hive are to feed newly hatching bees this time of year, over the winter, and in the spring before fresh pollen is available.

I gave each of my colonies 1lb of pollen sub in the last few weeks. Most scoffed it down, a few didn't touch it. FWIW there is bountiful natural pollen available right now. My feeding the sub was in reaction to observing hives close to starvation several weeks ago. Very populous hives had plenty of honey and pollen. Hives (mostly first year) that didn't have very strong populations were very light. So everyone got pollen this year and my wallet is a bit lighter. The cost of feeding all the hives pollen now is a lot less than replacing one colony in the spring from a commercially purchased nuc or package.

I noticed that a few of my over wintered hives this spring did not have adequate pollen reserves for spring buildup. Hence my being cautious now. I may very well feed more pollen in late February. That will depend upon what I see in my inspections - though February is very early in my area to be pulling frames - so some of what I do will be by best guess.

It is traditional to let the bees worry about pollen. That thought is changing, especially among commercial beekeepers getting hives ready for Almonds. Nutrition stress is thought to be _*one*_ of the causes of CCD.


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

Hi Andrew,

Thank you for the thoughtful post.

First, overall your reply assures me that my concern is valid. I just should have started earlier collecting pollen, especially with my concern for the younger hive. But since that hive is only a month old and was a complete surprise to my tiny bee yard it would have required the insight of a prophet to have forseen that I would need extra stores to aid "that" hive. My initial thought about collecting pollen was to not do it at all, because I thought it would just add stress to a hive. My more recent thought was to try to use trapped pollen to spur the hive into collecting more pollen than is natural for them at this time for the sake of helping them later in the Winter. Oh well, so much for that thought now. lol Maybe it will be useful next season if practiced on a stronger hive.

So on to the remainder of your thoughts. One helpful key phrase is your experience with seeing starvation several weeks ago (during potentially the best of times for bees) and how you aided the hives. That shows that every bee yard experiences different conditions and that a beek must act on the conditions he sees in his yard. Some yards might have plenty of rain while another has heavy drought. Further, even in your own bee yard you have hives with different needs.

While my idea of manipulating the bees pollen collecting habits might seem quirky or maybe even eccentric to some people its not really so far out of line with other "traditional" forms of hive manipulation. Its just thinking, wondering, asking and willingness to try trapping pollen for the sake of the hive rather than for the sake of the beek's pocketbook. As I said above, I just should have started acting on the idea sooner, since now is too late. Thanks for the heads up on that point. I didn't know then, but now I do and can store that in my aging memory bank for use next season.

My motivation for luring bees was to try to give them (and people) a better chance for survival in light of CCD. My intervention so far has accomplished that goal, at least in a small way. I lured a hive from a tree from which in the previous 2 seasons 2 hives failed within a month for whatever the reason. The hive which would probably have taken to that tree this year is now in a box and has survived much longer in the box than the previous 2 hives did in that same tree. Maybe that tree is a swarm magnet. The other hive I have - the one month old hive I have the deepest concern for at this time - was rescued from iminemt and total destruction a month ago. I just want to give it the best chance that I, with my cavernous lack of bee savy, can give it. Because of the mentors on this forum I can do better for the bees than I could have done alone. If my efforts fail with both these hives then it will be a learning experience I can build on for eforts next season.

I might blunder and fail, but I'm trying.

I do very much appreciate all the posts from everyone. I need the forum because other help is not readily available. 

bnt


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

beesintrees said:


> Actually, thinking about it is the reason I asked the question.
> bnt


I think that we beeks think too much, I think.


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## Glen H (Aug 17, 2013)

I know I over think too much about my bees, worrying, wondering, like as if they don't know what they are doing. LOL 

I don't think you need to worry too much about the pollen collection, let them collect and store it themselves. 

Glen


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

philip.devos said:


> I think that we beeks think too much, I think.


phhhhttttt,,,
lol
you just might have something there


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Bees,

What you see with pollen is the pollen source shutting down in the mid-day heat. It's not that the bees just stop collecting pollen, but rather the source drying up and the bees having nothing else to bring in. Like Andrew says, if you want to trap, you do it earlier in the year when it's abundant.


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> Bees,
> 
> What you see with pollen is the pollen source shutting down in the mid-day heat. It's not that the bees just stop collecting pollen, but rather the source drying up and the bees having nothing else to bring in. Like Andrew says, if you want to trap, you do it earlier in the year when it's abundant.


JRG13,

I had wondered if the heat had dried up the pollen or if the quality was failing because of the heat, because every early morning they were right back to bringing it in again and each hive was setting its own different time to quit. The thing that had me head scratching was that both hives sit on the same stand and one hive (the older one) stopped a couple hours earlier than the other. 

I've read that its good for a newbie to begin with from 2 to 4 hives so he can compare the behavior of one hive against the other. That would have thrown my thinker into a tizzy too, because my older hive took over a week to bring in the first grains of pollen after it moved into the box, while the second hive started bringing in pollen at just about the 48 hour mark. The first hive into the lure was really slow about increasing the number of bees bringing it in, but the younger hive kept the pedal to the metal from the second day. 

Somehow I had the thought that the younger hive was one of those die hard survivor hives that would be good for making splits & raising queens. While the older hive has struck me as being a little more laid back about building. But the older hive is a little more than a touch hotter during inspections.

OK pihlip.devos there I go thinking too much again. lol

And Glen H,

I'm taking it that "let the bees do their own thing" is the general consus, so that's what I'll do for now. One thing about the answers I'm getting is that when I get the "whys about the answers" it sure gives me a better understanding than a one sentence answer that only says, 'Don't do that." 

Like some have said I'll just be ready next year with pollen traps and either de-humidify it or freeze it in case its needed the following Winter. Hummnn, that's taking a lot of things for granted.

bnt


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> ou do it earlier in the year when it's abundant.


Pollen is very abundant right now in my parts. Golden rod, golden honey and white snakeroot. Picture below is snakeroot taken at 4pm in 90F heat 2 weeks ago. Although it just rained the 2 days before. 

I believe most plants produce the majority of nectar and pollen overnight, amount goverened by maturity, temps, nutrients, health, humidity and rainfall. Like JRG13 said it usually dries up by midday or is collected by natural pollinators, insects etc.


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

burns375 said:


> Pollen is very abundant right now in my parts. Golden rod, golden honey and white snakeroot. Picture below is snakeroot taken at 4pm in 90F heat 2 weeks ago. Although it just rained the 2 days before.
> 
> I believe most plants produce the majority of nectar and pollen overnight, amount goverened by maturity, temps, nutrients, health, humidity and rainfall. Like JRG13 said it usually dries up by midday or is collected by natural pollinators, insects etc.


burns375,

Thanks for the very nice picture. My camcorder is about 2Mpx and photos pixellate at that size. 

I went out and walked a few miles trying to find the source of my swarms for the last 3 years and saw one only very tiny flower which wouldn't support the weight of one bee. Golden rod stalks are up, but haven't bloomed yet. Until my neighbor bush hogged his meadow there was a field of goatweeds. lol 

It hasn't rained here in about a month, but when it did the bees were as busy as - well - a bee hive - should be. I hear thunder in the distance , but the breeze blows the clouds away. 

I have confidence we'll get some rain, but those golden rods better have deep roots if they are going to bloom anytime soon.

Oh, the swarm source hunt - I found over a dozen trees with holes, but none showed me any bees. Seeing will be better after the leaves fall off. I'm taking a container of syrup thinking I might try bee lining. I won't try a bee gum removal I just want to know where the hive is. In two hours yesterday I only attracted ants.

bnt


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