# Langstroth vs. TBH



## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

I'm brand new to this forum and I certainly don't want to offend but after learning about top bar hives that have clearly been around much longer than Langstroth hives, the only conclusion I can come up with is that beekeepers who own Langstroth hives are either commercial beekeepers or beekeepers who just want a lot of honey.
So, why does anyone aside from the aforementioned types want to have Langstroth hives? 
I've read enough to know that the negatives attributed to top bar hives are based on either, the uninformed or who, out of habit, simply don't want to know what may be an alternative type of bee hive.
I don't really care whether I've created a hornet's nest. I've simply done my homework and I just don't understand why anyone other than a commercial beekeeper would not want to look at a top bar hive. Flame away!
Bruce


----------



## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

Pretending to be an expert on the sense that you can critique everyone else’s preferences; does not make you an expert. This is the line I draw between the successful beekeepers and the ones like you and me that want to be like them.


----------



## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

I'm not sure I understand your comment. As I indicated in my post, I'm not an expert, I'm a beginner. So, your comments don't make a lot of sense. I'm simply stating that after reading, studying, researching as anyone would do if they were getting started in a hobby or vocation, I have found that top bar hives make more sense. If anyone wants to continue using Langstroth hives, be my guest. But I have had some interesting comments from several beekeepers in my area. One, who has had 55 years experience in beekeeping told me he was immediately interested in the top bar hive idea. I think, like lots of things, you just do it out of habit and anything new is a nuisance or you are just too old to learn. The gentleman I talked with was 75years old and excited learning about the top bar hive. He told me he was really at a point where he couldn't lift the supers anymore in his hives. (He has 21 hives). The top bar hive may not produce as much honey but it certainly is easier to maintain the hive and harvest the honey. For many, especially hobbyists, this is ideal. Considering the current problems with bees, I would think we would be open to getting hobbyists and non-commercial people involved in this. The top bar hive makes it a simpler process.
Bruce


----------



## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

Yes you have read a lot, but you should learn and respect all the comments from the amount of experts that are kind enough to give their experience for free in the form of advice on this forum. 
Now, it is time for us to peacefully learn from those kind enough to share their life experience with us wanttobee beekeepers.


----------



## PCM (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

After a few years, and a few Real Bees in your bonnet come back and tell the rest of us old timers all about it.

Have a nice Thanksgiving

PCM


----------



## TomOB (Jun 1, 2003)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

I shall reply for the benefit of real beekeepers, those with long and columnar hives, and as for you with the attitude problem, kindly retreat, soften any shoulder chips, and do reply later with a yearn to learn. 

After operating up to five long langstroths over the past two years (which resembled top bar creations)it came to my attention that maintaining a proper temperature for brood development was next to impossible whether it was early spring, summer, or late autumn. Furthermore, bees are columnar thinkers. They enlarge their nest and food supply in pyramid shape mode which no doubt allows for a better harvest. 

With those two significant observations accepted i decided to follow the conventional Langstroth method and archeitecture. For all my work I wish a better return from my investment involving money and time. The early TB hives were all that beekers had in those early days but like the buggy whip and the model t Ford, the time came to move on and use a better means.

The Top Bar, aka long Langstroth is no no doubt a top notch tool for summer specialty jobs such as brood development. I would not recommend such for year long use for the reasons given. I learned much about bees using the TB/Long Lang.


----------



## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

I respect and honor Old Timer’s comments; I own and keep both; top bars and langs. My understanding and lack of experience tells me to incline into giving respect to those that are what I would like to be or that will take their place as teachers or this hobby and for others; business.


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

Once you are into beekeeping very long, you will want to split hives, or move hives to a new beeyard.

I have found that I can inspect and manipulate a Langstroth hive much faster than I can inspect and manipulate a TBH.

Langstroth hives are much easier to move than a TBH.

Frames of honey are much easier to move when they are in Langstroth boxes. Right now, I put TBH honeycomb frames in a large steel pan when I pull honey. It's messy and I get bees stuck everywhere in the pan and honey. If I do many more TBH's, I figure I will need to build custom boxes for the sole purpose of carrying frames when pulling honey. (Although I might be able to use those boxes as TBH nucs.)

Extracting honey is also MUCH easier with a Langstroth. (If I am REALLY careful, I have been able to extract TBH frames in a 3 frame tangential extractor.)

In short, I am able to manage things and operate more efficiently by using Langstroth hives. (However, it should be noted that I only have one TBH, and I undoubtedly would find ways of managing TBH's more efficiently if I had several.)


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*



Beeheck said:


> I'm brand new to this forum ..... the only conclusion I can come up with is that beekeepers who own Langstroth hives are either commercial beekeepers or beekeepers who just want a lot of honey.
> So, why does anyone aside from the aforementioned types want to have Langstroth hives?


I think that, in your limited experience, you are letting some perceptions, no doubt based on your limited knowledge and experience, cloud your thinking. 

I personally know very experienced (and commercial) beeks that enjoy having top bar hives around, if only for the novelty of it. I am building up to a commercial level over the next few years and built both a top bar hive and a Lang long-hive. That type of hive, should it work out, will be the basis for my commercial endeavor.

There are few commercial beeks using top bar hives, not many but a few and the honey volume is important to them. I know beeks that have top bar hives and with close attention, can yield an equivalent amount of honey as a Lang over a season. You do know, given the amount of reading you claim to have done, that a top bar hive is capable of producing a substantial amount of honey? 

I also know countless backyard beeks that have a single Lang or two from which they take very little honey but a lot of enjoyment. Some run their hives chemical-free and do a lot of manipulations such as Spring splits which limits the honey yield, especially up here in the North. To them, a lot of honey is not important. It is about the bees.

I get the impression from your obvious attitude that you have embarked on your beekeeping path heavily weighed down by an agenda. Lose that and you will have a clearer view of the world and you might even enjoy conversing with others following a different path. You might even learn something. There is much more homework to be done.

It is not the box that you keep your bees in that is important. What is important is not confining your thinking in a little box or standing on the box to deliver sermons. Liberate yourself from the agenda and it will make you a complete beekeeper and a complete person.

Wayne


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

Well let's see.

Langstroth hives offer:

1) mass produced thus relatively lower priced and higher availability parts.

2) standardization from hive to hive, bee yard to bee yard and beekeeper to beekeeper.

3) ease of inspecting and extracting from frames

4) low incidence of breaking and causing damage to comb during transportation.

5) more availability of educational materials and assistance from others already experienced in their use.

I think that covers the basics.

Yes, the Langstroth hive, according to the book written by the man who designed it, is indeed designed to ease the tasks and experience of the beekeeper while potentially increasing the potential of surplus honey. truly ideal for someone who is interested in being primarily a honey producer with their bees.

There are plenty of pros and cons to each hive and methodology that goes with them.

there is no universal law stating that just because group A uses one type of hive that other people MUST use that hive as well. Popularity is not the final determinator of quality or usability.

If you do not like or prefer one type of hive, simply do not use it. Surely no one can force you to keep bees in a way that does not fit your needs/expectations. Trying to badmouth and bring down hives other than ones preferred choice is mostly pointless and serves only to put people on the defensive and cause un-necessary friction.

If you don't like it, don't do it but there's no need to rain on everybody else's parade.

just a thought.


----------



## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

Where is MP he was just discussing this the other day.


----------



## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

I will be keeping both next year. Figured I would give top bar, and warre a try too. I will report next year on how I feel about them


----------



## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

As I expected I got a range of replies. This was exactly what I had hoped for. I've learned more from the initial responses than most of the "book learning" I get. I certainly respect the beekeepers who have gone before me. That's why I mentioned the beekeeper with 55 years experience. I'm not looking for simple answers. I'm looking to find out what really works and why Langstroth hives don't seem to make sense when so much "smoke", medication and intrusion in the hive takes place. Why do bees make smaller cells when left to their own devices instead of placing foundations in a hive which seem to require that bees make unnaturally large cells. Doesn't anyone ask why that is? Why do we need foundations frames in the first place? Bees don't use them in a feral state. What is the purpose of the Langstroth hive in the first place and what is it we hoped to achieve for our environment, garden, crops, etc.. We may be at cross purposes and that's why we get such divergent opinions but frankly, it's the only way we learn.
I could spend months getting on this forum and enjoying the banter but learning so slowly it would be frustrating. I figure I'll shake things up and get a much healthier response by jumping in. Please keep it coming. Tell me why I've made a mistake and maybe why I've misunderstood the Langstroth hive.
Bruce


----------



## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

Read this book "Fifty Years Among the Bees" by CC Miller. You will get a good description of the first fifty years of the Lang. It was a lot of trial and error before it was settled on the lang that we use now.


----------



## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

Wayne,

Thank you. Very lucid. And I should add, I don't have an agenda. I just like to do some stirring of the pot to ferret out the good information from the mundane. I'm more than happy to learn from every discipline and I'm sorry to have given you the impression that I don't think outside the box. If you knew me, you'd have a good laugh over that. I just like getting to some bottom lines. I'm happy to spend the next few years developing the experience that I can get from the forum but I don't want to learn about beekeeping without learning about a top bar hive and I find that there is a dearth of information on top bar hives. Surprising when you think that top bar hives have been around for a couple thousand years longer than a Langstroth hive. So, I'll enjoy getting responses from all of you and more importantly, I'll absorb as much as I can about all types of beekeeping. I bet you I will learn more in the next few weeks with my emails in this forum than doing it the old fashioned way. Thanks for you contribution.
Bruce


----------



## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*



Beeheck said:


> ...after learning about top bar hives that have clearly been around much longer than Langstroth hives...So, why does anyone... want to have Langstroth hives?...


Not intending to flame you, but using the same logic, why would anyone want to have a container ship when slave galleys were here first? Or why would someone want a cell phone as long as they still made smoke to signal with. Or why use moveable print type when you could spend a lifetime shut up in a monastery transcribing a few copies of the same tome by hand.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*



Beeheck said:


> Surprising when you think that top bar hives have been around for a couple thousand years longer than a Langstroth hive.


Who told you that one?


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

to bee honest, I am guilty of doing those kinds of things simply to keep a lost art form alive. they might be old and inconvenient, but those old handscribed books are works of art. the art of making smoke signals as a form of communication isn't something to be snuffed at either.

just because something is old or inconvenient doesn't mean it has no place or is worthless.


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*Flame out.*

Most new inventions or modifications to old, have clear and unexpected improvements over "prior art".
The langstroth hive is a landmark example of this.
Many advantages, and totally new aspects never thought of before.
Certainly the beekeeping world has expressed their appreciation for the Langstroth hives by example of their widespread use.

HAVING SAID THAT........,

I have owned a 1942 Ford 2N tractor for 30 years. I also have a 1954 Ford 8N tractor.
I also have a BRAND NEW FWD turbocharged diesel tractor that is easily superior to my old Fords in every aspect.
Guess what? If the 2N is suitable for the task I always use it.
Why? Because I really enjoy putting around on the old Ford. And that is all the reason necissary.
If top bar hives are suitable for your needs and you enjoy them, that is all the reason you need to do things your way.
Don't feel like you have to justify your operation to anyone, or become a flame-thrower.
Enjoy your bees!


----------



## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

If you don't like it, don't do it but there's no need to rain on everybody else's parade.

This appears to be the normal response. Some kind of defensive mechanism that says if I see some advantages as a hobbyist to another form of beekeeping, I must be a "bad guy". I'm not raining on anyone's parade. I find top bar hives to be ideal for the hobbyist. I don't care if anyone wants to use another form of beekeeping. I keep getting responses that continue to talk about the amount of honey one can produce from a Lang hive. I get it. I'm not interested in the amount of honey and I understand you can manipulate a Lang to simulate a less stressful environment for the bee, but the top bar hive does that already. I'm just saying for a hobbyist interested in increasing the bee population and improving our current environment by getting involved in beekeeping, I prefer the top bar hive for achieving that goal.
Bruce


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

nope, you took it out of context.

the same works for people who flame on tbh's as well.

what is the point of harassing and trying to change others if there is no need?

you have a hive you like, use it, let others have their own. it;s called respect.


----------



## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

I have several types of hive, lang, top bar, and kenyan. You don't have to put foundation in a lang hive, you can let them build there own with starter strips or a starter board, so then its all natural comb, takes care of one prob.

In the long hive you don't have to disturb frames as much as the lang hive to inspect it . but in the fall you are supposed to move all the brood to one end or the other to prevent starving. That is pretty disruptive to a hive.

The number 1 rule of all is bees follow heat up in the winter, this can be overcome somewhat in a long hive but its far from the natural way bees want to build.

There are good points to both, I do alot of queen grafting from the long, easy access to frames.

You don't have to stir people up to get responses on here . 

Good luck with any hive you use.


----------



## longrangedog (Jun 24, 2007)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

It is not the box that you keep your bees in that is important. What is important is not confining your thinking in a little box or standing on the box to deliver sermons. Liberate yourself from the agenda and it will make you a complete beekeeper and a complete person.

Wayne 

The arrogance is absolutely stunning!


----------



## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*

A man after my own heart! Sometimes an old method works better than a new one or the new simply tries to modify the old to create...
more honey...
more bees who create more honey...
But honestly, if you were a hobbyist or a simple beekeeper who doesn't want to be a retail operator and who simply wants to improve the bee population in your area, what do you want to do; lift heavy supers when you're 60 years old using a forklift?
I like the idea of pulling honey comb one at a time as needed. I like the idea I don't have to add boxes and conversely remove boxes at different stages of the process. It's that simple. If you already have a bunch of boxes out in your field, I understand. I don't think I would want to change either. If you're interested in a different approach to beekeeping, then I would encourage you to read all you can on top bar hives. I know they keep a low profile because of the response I'm getting, but it's new or it's not new but a change from the old. It applies modern beekeeping to an older process and it seems to work for the hobbyist and after all, aren't we really looking to help the bees recover to a more healthy environment?
Bruce


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: Ok, Flame Away*



Beeheck said:


> I'm not interested in the amount of honey and I understand you can manipulate a Lang to simulate a less stressful environment for the bee, but the top bar hive does that already.


OK, explain. By manipulation you can "simulate" a less stressful environment. You infer that the TBH is somehow inherently less "stressful". 

So, what stressful conditions exist in a Langstroth that don't exist in a TBH? And how exactly are you manipulating Langs and what is it you are trying to simulate?

I guess since you say you are an inexperienced beekeeper, this all must be something you read on the internet or in a book...I can only imagine. Is there some science that backs up these statements of yours?


----------



## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

We will try this one more time. Follow the forum rules. There needs to be a change in the tone of some postings.


----------



## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

MP, the answer to you question is "no". It reminds me of someone trying to learn to fly from reading a book. "And for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would fly a cargo plane when there are jets out there to fly!!!" :lpf:


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Beeheck said:


> top bar hives that have clearly been around much longer than Langstroth hives,
> Bruce


Can you plaese explain what you mean by this? 

If you know anything about the MODERN Top Bar Hives and Langstorth's History you would know that before Langstrth's design there were TBHs and then Langstroth made design improvements and then, in the 1970s, the Modern TBH came into existence. 

So, whereas, Historically speaking, the idea of using bars across the top of a basket predates Langstroth, clearly, since Langstroth's design inovation of removable frames, the majority of beekeepers around the world have used that design, for various reasons. None of which have caused harm to the honeybees.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

When we hear mention of "two thousand years", this is people who believe in a make believe world populated by people with ancient wisdom superior to ours, that has somehow been lost.

The real history is that top bar hives did not appear until the 17th century. Prior to that bees were kept in any container they could build a hive in. No top bars, just kill the bees when it's time and scrape the honey out.

Then top bar type hives were invented which was a major step forward in it's day. But they were not widely used at the time, and were soon improved to include a frame that went completely around the comb.

The "bee space" that bees will not fill, was then discovered and guys like Langstroth worked on and improved the design until we got what we have now.


----------



## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

Oldtimer came close! If you want to keep bee using methods that are thousands of years old, then go find a hollow tree and put bees in it! Then if you want to harvist some honey, you kill the bees, split open the nest area and take the honey comb (if there is any)


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What was the Author of this Thread trying to do by posting it? Maybe I missed the intent. Wanna give it another try?


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

or, just use whichever hive suits your needs/expectations best and don't worry about what other people use. 

You only have to do what you find best for your situation and your bees


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Beeheck said:


> I'm brand new to this forum and I certainly don't want to offend but after learning about top bar hives that have clearly been around much longer than Langstroth hives, the only conclusion I can come up with is that beekeepers who own Langstroth hives are either commercial beekeepers or beekeepers who just want a lot of honey. So, why does anyone aside from the aforementioned types want to have Langstroth hives?, out of habit, simply don't want to know what may be an alternative type of bee hive.
> I don't really care whether I've created a hornet's nest. I've simply done my homework and I just don't understand why anyone other than a commercial beekeeper would not want to look at a top bar hive. Flame away!
> Bruce


 
You say you've done your homework. Would you please elaborate on your comments..."I don't understand why anyone other than a commercial would want to keep langstroth". Something you read on the internet I suppose?

You say that Lang hives are inherently stressful unless managed properly. How? Why would one box style be more stressful than another? Of course, if the cavity isn't large enough they will swarm...stress? 

You make it seemingly immoral to produce "a lot of honey". How so?

I'm a Langstroth beekeeper. Glad of it. I produce large crops of honey. Thankful for it. I keep good records. My beekeeping depends on it. I raise healthy, productive stocks that are way better than the bees I used to have and can buy now. My bees depend on it. 

I don't have a day job. Couldn't stand it. I make a fairly good living. My family depends on it. I hire people to work here. They depend on it. I sell bees and queens to folks around the country. The quality of their stocks is better for it. I travel across the country to present intellegent, sustainable beekeeping management. Beekeepers, I hope, are better for it. 

All this with Langstroth hives. 

I enjoy harvesting comb honey by the super and not by the comb. I enjoy producing honey by the Ton and getting it out there for folks to enjoy. I enjoy managing 30+ commercial apiaries of kick-a colonies, out there doing their thing in nature.

This all would not be possible with TBHs. Now if you want to keep your bees in TBHs that's great. I'm not criticizing you. That's not my place. I show by example. You are keeping bees for fun. Nothing wrong with that. I wish you all the success. 

One question I have. You're location doesn't give away your latitude. I have yet to see a successful TBH beekeeper in the north. Wintering here is a real problem. The only large TBH operation goes south to Florida for winter. Anyone out there in the north running a sustainable TBH apiary? Anyone?

"So, why does anyone aside from the aforementioned types want to have Langstroth hives?"

Why wouldn't they?


----------



## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

After sleeping on it and reviewing the responses one more time I had no idea how sensitive many of you were to my comments. I took a look at my first post and other than stating my interest in top bar hives and the merits of the construction for a hobbyist of which the following quote from Wikipedia follows...
"Unlike the Langstroth stacked box hive, there is no heavy lifting involved (unless the entire hive is to be relocated). Inspection of the combs can be carried out with far less disturbance to the bees than is the case with Langstroth hives, since only a small amount of the hive is exposed at any one time. Many modern hive designs incorporate a viewing glass window in the side of the hive with a removable wooden cover allowing for complete inspection without disturbance of the hive. This promotes more frequent inspection by the beginner as the bees are less prone to become defensive."

Reduced storage requirements
"Since no seasonal storage of honey collection boxes ("supers") is needed, nor is a centrifugal extractor used, the storage requirements are also greatly reduced. Hobby beekeepers using specifically designed top-bar hives have been able to successfully keep bees without any medications, important since the medications are dangerous to humans and their time of use must be carefully managed to minimize contamination of hive products."

...the personal attacks were surprising. With few exceptions there was a clear attempt to kill the messenger instead of addressing the body of the subject which was the discussion of the top bar hive vs the lang hive.

I found even the historical references to be interesting. Top bar hives have been in existence for thousands of years, maybe not in its modern form but the idea of using bars over a hive has been. The idea that top bar hives are a modern development (the 1970's) I suppose may be true if you want to get technical but the way they work basically hasn't changed.

My comments about flaming away probably instigated this and for that I'm sorry. It must have appeared to some an invitation to launch an attack. Certainly many of you didn't hold back but I was disappointed that with only a few exceptions, there wasn't a lot of substantive discussion about the differences in the hives which was what I was hoping to get. It came down to the relative merits of the Lang over the TBH's and why I should suggest that TBH's are better than a Lang in the first place. The ad hominem attacks about my arrogance, the metaphors of flying old versus new planes, the sheer stupidity of my comments was in truth, a wake up call that causes me to question whether to be on this Board. If I play by the rules, be nice and respect everyone's experience and never question, I can probably stay on the Board. If I veer off the path a little I'll be castigated by those who know more than me. Frankly, that's not much fun for me. I learn by challenging preconceived ideas until I understand them and they make sense to me. Just because it's been done a certain way doesn't necessarily make them better or right. I'm just disappointed so much energy was wasted on telling me what I don't know. I already know that.
Bruce


----------



## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Michael,

I have been in contact with quite a few TBH'ers in the northern part of the U.S. From their comments they don't indicate any problems wintering their bees though they do tell me that there are a lot of comments they do hear about the difficulty of wintering using a TBH. The comments are not coming from actual TBH'ers.
Bruce


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

something else to chew on there Bruce is that you say say you want all kinds of feedback, but you only responded to things you found negative.

I know I gave you a list of five realistic pro's of a langstroth hive and the only thing you took from that post was to try to turn one comment about not criticize other hives into an argument.

For someone claiming to be looking for objective information, you seem particular about responding only to the negative.

people put a lot of thought and effort into the hive system that works best for them and their circumstances. To be called "bad" or some other judgmental term puts them immediately on the defensive. 

I hope you get the information you are looking for to help you find the hive that will work best for you. I know for what I am doing, ktbh's and modified Warre's are my preference.

enjoy the bees.

Big Bear


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>> Wikipedia follows...
"Unlike the Langstroth stacked box hive, there is no heavy lifting involved (unless the entire hive is to be relocated).<<

Fair enough. How heavy is heavy? Mediums of honey weigh 40-55. Same as a bag of dog food.

>> Inspection of the combs can be carried out with far less disturbance to the bees than is the case with Langstroth hives, since only a small amount of the hive is exposed at any one time.<<

What evidence is there that a minor disturbance by removing the top box to look at combs below has any effect on the bees at all. Why are my bees healthy and productive if this so called disturbance actually is.

>>Many modern hive designs incorporate a viewing glass window in the side of the hive with a removable wooden cover allowing for complete inspection without disturbance of the hive. This promotes more frequent inspection by the beginner as the bees are less prone to become defensive."<<

And what exactly can you see by looking through a window? Queenless/queenright? Healthy/diseased? What? 

>>Reduced storage requirements
"Since no seasonal storage of honey collection boxes ("supers") is needed, nor is a centrifugal extractor used, the storage requirements are also greatly reduced.<<

And is the production of surplus honey greatly reduced in turn?


>>Hobby beekeepers using specifically designed top-bar hives have been able to successfully keep bees without any medications, important since the medications are dangerous to humans and their time of use must be carefully managed to minimize contamination of hive products."<<

And Langstroth hive beekeepers haven't done the same? This is exactly my point. The way these things are written, and the way you have posted your questions, it seems that top bar hives are in some way better...or at least Langstroth hives are lacking. 

>>Hobby beekeepers using specifically designed top-bar hives have been able to successfully keep bees without any medications,<<

Specifically designed?? How's that? It's a box. Does it matter to the bees if it's trapezoidal or cubical? Really? Doesn't it matter more what's inside the box?


----------



## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

I remove the combs from my Langstroth hives one frame at a time into an empty box. That way I do not have to lift a full, heavy box. That is probably not practical for a commercial guy but, that is also why they have forklifts and such.
I have not tried a TBH but I am treatment free and plan on going foundationless as I change out my older comb. Right now overwintering is my greatest concern.
Beekeeping is the most interesting animal husbandry project I have taken on. I bet you will enjoy it greatly. One thing is that the girls will do things their way. They don't get to read the books or search the internet and will impose their will to survive no matter what your personal desires are. 
As a hobbiest it is affordable to try different setups and intensive operations/manipulations such as checkerboarding, top entrances and queen excluders. I use the information on the forum as a guideline and then I can work my hives with a little more direction to my intuition. 
Most of all as a hobbiest I just have a good time with it. 
I am looking forward to your posts with your experiences to share.


----------



## 67630 (Jul 17, 2008)

Beeheck,
When you ask for help or an opinion from someone that has many years experience and then tell them they are wrong, what reaction do you expect to get from them. There is alot to be said for "think it dont say it". So if you dont agree with comments the simple thing to do is just try your own ideas and find out what will or will not work for you. That way you can still post on this forum and maybe get someone who does know the answer to whatever problem you are having help you out. Otherwise, problems you will have and answers you wont.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Wikipedia as a source of info on beekeeping? Pretty weak. I can hear my Dad right now, "Consider the source."

Window on the side to view the bees? I don't know anyone at all who has hives like that. None.

Top bars have been used for thousands of years? What source do you have for that claim?

There is probably no one who is using TBHs in the way they were used, using the design from the oldest examples. Is anyone keeping bees in baskets? It would be a pretty unusual example if one could find someone doing so. imo.


----------



## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

I can't seem to get past this. No matter what I say, some of you turn it into a personal referendum on the way I say it. I have had some good responses but the majority of them were personal. I can't overlook that so please don't feel slighted because I didn't respond to your thoughts personally. I am certainly taking it all in but I want to be clear about something. I don't plan on using baskets, nor killing my bees to harvest my honey. Top bar hive information is thoroughly researched and available. I simply condensed from a easily available resource. It is not the only information I have researched about TBH's. The point being made is that the concept and use of a TBH has been used for thousands of years. This is documented. The evolution of this concept is being used today. I don't need a basket with top bars to somehow verify the fact. So, having said that, I want to make this clear, for the reasons I indicated, I personally prefer the TBH. That does not automatically mean that a Lang is somehow inferior. I've never said that and somehow it has been inferred here. 
I'm going to move on and hope you will too.
Bruce


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yup, I guess we've beaten this dead horse long enuf. Though, as someone who thinks he knows something about hives down through the ages and is also willing to learn something I don't know I would still like to see so evidence of bars laid across a cavity for bees to build on from "thousands" of years ago.

A websearch of "ancient hives" shows links hives from 3 thousand years ago which are basically holes in walls. Cylindrical cavities. 

beeheck,
I know what it is like breaking into a relativily new forum w/ unintended confrontational posts. There are lots of people out there who wish I would just shut up and go away. So, don't give up on beesource. When you come across in a manner that you didn't intend, apologize and take another stab at it.

No big deal. I do it all the time. You have to let what seems like a personal attack flow off your back like water off a duck.


----------



## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> There are lots of people out there who wish I would just shut up and go away. So, don't give up on beesource. .


:lpf:Mark if your wasnt here who would we pick on - OH I no "bigbear" :lookout:


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

pickin' i don't mind. it's the kickin' that hurts. i no u only pick on me beecuz u luv me. eye luv u 2. u as in everybody, not honeyman specifically. just thot eye aught 2 make that clear.


----------



## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> Langstroth hives are either commercial beekeepers or beekeepers who just want a lot of honey.
> So, why does anyone aside from the aforementioned types want to have Langstroth hives?


Beeheck,
I get what you are asking so I would respond with there are many ways and methods too keep bees. Everyone settles on what works for them therefore it is the best way. Personal choice.
Do you want to make honey, do pollination, raise queens or just have bees in your back yard? All are approached differently and should be.
Not all Lang beeks are just into making honey. 

As an analogy I can use the horse industry and all the different types and their uses. 
Race horses; Thoroughbred, Quarter horse, Standard bred, Endurance etc...
Show horses; Sport, Jumper, Dressage, Western, Draught etc...
Then there are the back yard horses which can be any of the different breeds.
Even though all are horses they are used for different purposes in very different ways with different equipment. Some are used to make a living some are not. Point being an industry should be open to differences.

If I wanted to make honey I don't think I would stay in my present location where the average honey crop is about 50lbs a hive I would move to southeast Saskatchewan where this year I read they averaged about 400lbs per hive. But then again I like my winters better than theirs. We have choices.

What I would say is pick the system that is going to fit your wants and see where it takes you. I have TBH's and will tell you I really like them!


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> Wikipedia as a source of info on beekeeping? Pretty weak. I can hear my Dad right now, "Consider the source."


you know, wikipedia takes a lot of flack as not being a credible source. but if you do consider the source, many of the folks adding info to the bee sections are indeed bee keepers. Not a bad source all things said and done.

take time to read through the whole beekeeping section there and you might be pleasantly surprised.

you know who we should be picking on? those darn clay pot beekeepers. doggone them, dragging us all back to egyptian times like that. how dare they!!

seriously though, to quote one of my role models, Rodney Dangerfield,

"I get no respect, when I get to the bee yard, the bees don't bother to sting me. They just point and laugh."


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Pretty good. Next time leave off the "instead". I think you will agree it flows better.

Who poked the bear?


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

HM did. it's his new hobby.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Beeheck said:


> The point being made is that the concept and use of a TBH has been used for thousands of years. Bruce


It hasn't. Fixed comb hives were used.

I think the basic problem is you've started out, by bad luck, reading poorly researched, and no doubt opinionated literature, and been convinced by it.

If you believe moveable comb TBH's have been in use thousands of years ago, please reference me some EVIDENCE.

If there is none, I'd question everything else in your book also.

What's happened in this thread, is that most of these guys have been around a while. They have already heard your opinions before, and know where you are coming from. They knew straight away you are repeating opinions from a book / net, and people here are already aware of this type of book and have heard it all before.

It may come as a surprise, but you have not dropped any bombshells of new knowledge and enlightenment on anyone.

You then threw out an invitation to "flame away".


Among your opinions, are also some "facts" commonly quoted in those type of books, such as the moveable comb TBH's were used thousands of years ago thing. If you cannot reliably verify any of these "facts", on which the opinions are based, why buy into the whole thing?


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

just out of curiosity, can you dis prove them?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

bigbearomaha said:


> just out of curiosity, can you dis prove them?


Seems to me Big Bear, you've done a search to find a TBH thousands of years old, and come up with nothing. 

Can I disprove there were no TBH's thousands of years ago? No.

Can I disprove there were no little green men that came and kidnapped people? No.

Can you disprove there isn't a man on the moon made of cheese? No.


The thing is, it isn't my job to disprove it. 

When a book states these "facts", it is THEIR job, to prove it. If there is absolutely no shred of evidence, then this stuff should not be stated as a "fact". If the facts are wrong, the opinions are wrong.


I'll add to that, that there is PLENTY of evidence of the old fixed comb hives from thousands of years ago, numerous examples have been found. TBH's though? None.


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

If your intentions are to have bees for the purpose of helping the bees...carry on nobody here will hold you back. If you have chosen after your research the the TBH is the one and only method for you to attain your goal....carry on, again nobody is here to stop you....The tone with which you approach this crowd will determine how much help you get and whether or not the questions you truly have will be answered. There are as many different personalities on this forum as there are species of bugs in Florida...we are all here to talk bees, seek answers, and help eachother out...in the end we are all here for the bees and I RESPECT the EXPERIENCE of many on this forum even if I dont agree with some of their methods and madness, but they dont have to accept mine either 

My suggestion in regards to the TBH you have chosen to run with is...go with it. I think you have determined through reading that the TBH is the "paradise" of honey bee colony living quarters, and without manipulations, assistance, smoke, meds, etc. you will help save the bees. The truth of the matter is than anyone with bees whether in a lang, tbh, ktbh, warre, etc. will tell you its nowhere near as easy as the materials you have been reading... 
Build your TBH's, gain some experience, keep an open mind, ask good quality non-inflammatory questions, and approach this and other forums with a little humility...in the case of honeybees and their keepers the "textbook and internet" education does not hold water to the hard work and dedication of the EXPERIENCED beekeepers you will find here.

good luck


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

as usual oldtimer, you'd rather be argumentative. I only asked out of curiosity since you seem so bent on trying to deter people from using this type of hive. and you must have me mixed up for someone else with the "thousands of years old" reference. I don't recall making that particular claim. only that top bar beekeeping is a lot older than most are aware of.

you demand evidence of others yet refuse to provide evidence to prove your own points. yeah. whatever. 

I can tell you that according to "The world history of beekeeping and honey hunting"
By Eva Crane Circa 1999

the earliest movable comb top bar hives were discovered by Dr Jacob Spon and George Wheler in about 1678 in visits to Atica, Greece. Upon visiting beekeepers there, they were told of the methods and history of those hives and how they had been used for as long as they could remember. indicating obviously that movable comb top bar hives predated the "discovery" of their use in recorded history for several generation previous.

So let's see, that's at least 332 years of documented history in Greece of these types of hives.with an indication of hundreds of years or longer before that.

I would say based on that, top bar hives have been historically shown as viable hives.

enjoy the bees.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

bigbearomaha said:


> as usual oldtimer, you'd rather be argumentative.


Well thanks for the personal attack.





bigbearomaha said:


> and you must have me mixed up for someone else with the "thousands of years old" reference. I don't recall making that particular claim.


Did i say you said that? You didn't say that, Beeheck did. It's not all about you BB, Chill Out! 






bigbearomaha said:


> I can tell you that according to "The world history of beekeeping and honey hunting"
> By Eva Crane Circa 1999
> the earliest movable comb top bar hives were discovered by Dr Jacob Spon and George Wheler in about 1678 in visits to Atica, Greece.


So, you HAVE been searching.
Anyhow you have discovered exactly what I've been saying the whole time if you actually read the posts. Just to repeat, the first TBH's did not appear until the 17th century. (1678 is towards the end of the 17th century). Hardly thousands of years ago.


----------



## curiousgeorge (Oct 9, 2010)

I'm jumping in late on this forum, and I'm also very new to Beesource here. I'm very interested in the original question. I'm inexperienced myself, having never had my own bees and just worked for a commercial lang operation for a couple seasons. 

These forums have been eye-opening for me in many ways. One I'm finding is that I have the tendency to get really one-sided about what I read. I find myself getting caught up so far that all I'll be able to do IS keep bees in a log!

I am more interested in Warres than TBHs, but have only worked with Langs. I would be curious to hear more about the differences/advantages/disadvantages between the different hive-types, based on real experience. I've just recently been reading how important Nest Heat/Scent is. Exactly HOW important is it? In that, some sources say Langstroths and that frame setup greatly diminishes the nest heat, therefore putting additional stress on the bees. But, like one of you said, I have seen many powerful, bustling hives producing Huge amounts of honey in Langs. So...how much does it matter?

I can get a little "purist" with the natural/non-treating stuff. I'm trying to keep myself balanced with my learning and thinking. What are all your thoughts on where conventional beekeeping has "gone wrong" (including hive types, management, etc.) and where it has "done right", because it seems that's at the heart of the question about TBHs vs. Langs.

If this should be a brand new thread, please let me know!


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The nest / heat thing, what I've noticed is that a weak colony ( fistful of bees), will do poorly in a Langstroth, but can do better in a TBH. I've put tiny swarms into TBH's that just wouldn't have been worth messing with in a Langstroth, but in the TBH they have built up without help and eventually prospered.

But in a Langstroth a strong hive will have no issues with brood scent / temp, or whatever. And since a commercial guy wants honey and therefore a strong hive, that is why a Langstroth is designed that way.


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> Seems to me Big Bear, you've done a search to find a TBH thousands of years old, and come up with nothing.


uh yeah, you did say that to me.

if you think someone saying you are being argumentative is a personal attack buddy, I think someone else needs to chill out her.

of course I search, I try to learn about everything instead of just assuming things.

by the way, I don't see how you figure that tbh's didn't appear until the 17th century. the book said it wasn't documented until then. but that they had been in use for much longer.

so you can't say exactly when they were started. nice try though.

just curious though, why is that important? for someone who makes such a fuss over a hive that is only around 150 years old, one might think some respect is warranted for another that is at least double that if not more.

personally, I don't carewhat hive another beekeeper uses, each hive has it's pro's and con's depending on the circumstances it is used under. 

Lang hives are just as fine a a tbh as a warre as any other that someone feels fits their needs.

I don't understand the need for some folks to constantly try to deter others from using a particular hive or method when it has nothing to do with their own usage. is it a power trip thing, I don't understand it.

seriously, I do wish you and every other beekeeper out there the best in keeping their bees alive and healthy and productive in the ways best for each. I just wish the judgmental competitiveness would disappear. use what you like, don't use those you don't like and keep on truckin.


----------



## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

Why give this nut case anymore credence!!! However; I have gleaned a LOT from all of you more level-headed experienced beeks :thumbsup:


----------



## PCM (Sep 18, 2007)

You all don't think we have been TROLLED do you ??

This original post was placed on at least 3 different Bee Forums in a very short time.

A lot of Discord has came out, that's how trollers get their jollies !!

Do a Google search for inter net trolling.

And it appears he has got a lot of suckers on these 3 boards, shame !!

PCM

:ws


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Since in the last post i've stated my use of TBH's I'd like to put a nail in this kind of comment now.


bigbearomaha said:


> since you seem so bent on trying to deter people from using this type of hive.


I fact Big Bear, I'm involved with a group that use TBH's. Bees are bees, no matter what shape the box, so despite all that evil Langstroth experience I have, I am able to put bees in their Top Bars, fix things when they make mistakes, requeen with better bees if needed, make sure the hives get through the winter, and make sure they get a good honey crop. ( For a Top Bar hive ).

In short, I have more Top Bar experience than most of the people on this forum who spit the dummy about Langstroths.

You will not have to keep attacking me now.


----------



## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

DING DING DING cool it boyzs

I think PCM has said a mouth full!!!!


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

PCM said:


> You all don't think we have been TROLLED do you ??


Well maybe although the guy really does want to know.

He is now the most famous guy on beesource!

Been fun though.


----------



## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

> This original post was placed on at least 3 different Bee Forums in a very short time.


So with what has happened here and on other forums I think we have been "Trolled" and as some one has said he probably has had fun doing it because we now have guys going at each other and if it dosent stop soon IT WILL STOP


----------



## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

whatever oldItimer. 

you're right hm. this is done on my part.


----------



## Humanbeeing (Nov 23, 2010)

Just do whatever you like. I had 3 Warres I built, and three Langs. The Langs are a breeze. I kept breaking comb in the Warre. I built full frames for one Warre. After they were drawn out, I never broke another comb. 
Fully removable comb and proper beespace cannot be improved upon. My Warre hives will make a great fire next camping season. The bees will go into 8 frame Langs, prior to burning them. The biggest mistake I made using Warre hives is that those three hives have to start over, in Langs, next spring. Other than that, it was a good learning experience and I could build my own frames for any Lang, if need be. Good training.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Serious commercial beekeepers won't find tbhs practical. "discussing moderation"? Someone brought up the idea that this Thread is TROLLING and I asked about the consequences. Maybe you should delete the TROLLING post too. Top bar hives are for hobby beekeepers.


----------



## Panhandle Scott (Jul 11, 2009)

After reading all of this my brain now needs a shot from a Epi-pen

While TBH's are kinda neat and great converstion pieces I can't see whether you are into honey production or not how they can be better than a Lang with removable frames and the ability to add or deduct space as needed depending on the seasons.


----------



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...you have done enough "research" to discover that langstroth's original frames had no foundation? that there are many keeping langstroth hives today without using foundation? without using treatments? that there are actual forums and books that cover this?

...you do understand that if you want to "stir the pot" (to make absurd statements about how foolish everyone with actual experience must be in order to get someone to explain things to you) is an insulting way to ask for help?

....you do understand that this isn't "school", and that we aren't your students looking to be "educated" by debating your questions?

...you do understand that none of us want to do your research for you?

...you do understand that reading part of a single beekeeping book and watching some videos is not "extensive research"?

...you do understand that someone who is 75 years old may well have specific needs (lifting wise, height wise) that are different from what is ideal for the general population (ie, a good bicycle for a 75 year old is probably quite different from a good bicycle for anyone from 15-55).

deknow


----------



## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

Wow, quite a dust-up here. And a nod to trolling from yours truly.

Just a general response to the topic, and not to the original poster . . .

I'm often asked about TBH in my beginner classes, and by new beekeepers. My opinion is that I'd be reluctant to recommend it to new beekeepers. I think seeing what's happening in the hive, inspecting comb, spotting eggs, finding queens etc. is that much harder in a TBH. Add to that the dearth of local mentors and you've got a real up-hill climb. After a season or two and you've learned the ropes - go for it.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes the problem with all these new agey beekeeping books is that a lot of newbies, who know no better, are getting lead into the alternative methods, before they try the mainstream ones.

Another thing that gets up my nose about these books is some of them spend a lot of time on rubbishing the langstroth design I don't know why these people are so defensive. I've read a lot of books based on Langstroth hives and never even seen Top Bars mentioned.

Then you get people like this coming through, thinking the design of the Langstroth hive is responsable for every evil on the planet.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Deleted, double post


----------



## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

I'm 100% behind trying alternate methods, but only after you've learned enough to know if it's working or not. In my opinion a standard lang w/ black plastic foundation (for spotting eggs and larvae easily) is the best learning platform out there. Once you've learned what to look for, and what you're looking at the world is your oyster.


----------

