# Best Time of Day to Start Cutout?



## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

I've been avoiding doing cutouts all along, but I got a call the other day and this one looks pretty simple. There an overhanging porch roof that looks to have a void two feet tall at the back sloping to a point at the gutter line. Bees are clustering at a hole near the back. I can see with a flashlight that they're crawling into the void somewhere and not into the wall of the house that it's attached (at least I hope not). The plan is to put up a small scaffold, remove the end of the void (chisel away the stucco) and hopefully access everything.

Question. What's the best time to start? I was going to get going about 9 or 10 a.m., hoping to be done by 11 or 12. Then leave a nuc box to collect the foragers. Sound about right?


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I did one Tues. in the same location. I cut a hole in the ceiling of the porch between two joists for about two feet. I then vacuumed bees and cut comb. Wired brood comb in 3 frames, installed in hive, dumped bees on top of frames and closed box. Started at 10.00 am with myself and one other beek. Finished at 2:30 PM. Left hive on porch to collect foragers and clean remains of honey. Will pick up hive tonight.


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## Waysouth (Dec 27, 2004)

John
This post reminds me of a removal I did yesterday. The woman said the bees had just arrived (and the small ball DID look like a new swarm) Long story short - the bees were bearded out in the hot weather - I weighed 8 pounds of bees when I finished  - Start as early as possible - you and the bees both will appreciate finishing before the heat of the day


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

I agree with Iddee - the last one I did (ok, I've only done three this year) I waited until 10:00 to give the foragers time to get going. Resulted in fewer bees on the comb during the cut-out. The one before that I got the bright idea to start early in the morning. Wish I'd have waited a little while - there were quite a few more bees, quite a bit more defensive.


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

Thanks for the advice, all. I'm going to stop by there tomorrow and take a couple pics. Don't ask why I didn't do that in the first place... I'll post tomorrow if I have time.

I'm thinking that these bees may have been there for awhile. At least all summer. This is a house that my dentist's assistant just bought and she doesn't know how long the bees have been there. They just signed the papers on Monday!

At any rate, I'm pretty excited about this cutout. The only thing I don't have is a bee vac, but I really don't think I'll need it.

Thanks!


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

I try to start my cut outs in late afternoon finishing before dark that way I get most of the bees


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I do them whenever the time is convient for me.......yes, it's all about me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If I get a choice I like to start early so I have plenty of time before dark. If it's simple I might prefer to start later as I like to wait until dark to take the bees home.


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> If I get a choice I like to start early so I have plenty of time before dark. If it's simple I might prefer to start later as I like to wait until dark to take the bees home.


Fortunately, this isn't far from home. So I can leave the hive and come back after dark. Should be able to post pics later today.


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## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

No matter how long you expect it to take, it will take longer. Bring along the things you know you will need, the things you think you might need, and the things you figure you don't need. can probably leave the kitchen sink home. Good luck and enjoy


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## Sarge (Jun 26, 2006)

Put me in the group that wants as many bees out of the nest as possible. And I like to leave the hive in place at least until sundown to round them all up.
As to the best time, there isn't one. You just make do.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I always start around 5PM and am done about dark thirty. I do two or three every week all summer long. Figure about three hours unless it's a big un or you have to set a scaffold then add a little time to it.

If you haven't done them before, start earlier. But if you can time it right and finish just after dark, you won't have to go back and you will finish with a clean job the first time.

The one I did tonight took four hours with having to set a double tier scaffold, I had a helper. Started at 5:30, done at 9:30. $450.00 50 lbs of honey, one nuc full of brood and bees, and a vac with 8 pounds of bees.


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

Bill, sending you a PM...


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

*Here's some pics of the crime scene...*

Left side of the porch overhang, in the corner...










If I pull off the two brown facing boards, I should be able to remove the whole side of the overhang and get to everything in there.










Hopefully, that's where they're at. Kind of hard to tell from this pic, but I could see them going along the wall into the overhang.










Wish me luck! I'll be picking up a bee vac from a friend tomorrow just in case.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I would use a stethoscope or heat sensor to locate them before tearing into the building. I am betting they are above the ceiling of the room just inside the door, rather than in the porch.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

You have three areas that they could be in.

The floor joices.
The wall of the building above the brick.
The end wall of the porch.

My bet is that they are in the joices. That is the area between the first floor and the second. I would take my thermometer and take a reading from the inside first floor ceiling. It is usually more economical to make repairs to sheetrock than the siding. As a general rule you will not find them between the brick and the sheeting, there is not enough room for them. A typical wall will have the brick on the outside, a 1 1/2 inch gap, sheeting then the wall studs with insulation then sheetrock on the inside.

If you do not find an area of about four degrees variance in the ceiling, then go upstairs and take readings to the wall just above where they are entering the building.

If you do not find any hot spots then try the porch wall. If you do not find any hot spots there then take a 5/8 paddle bit and make a hole in the porch wall. If you see honey or wax on the bit or see bees coming out of the hole you have found them. If not then you need to try the same thing in the ceiling, then the upstairs wall. It is much easier to repair a small hole than a big chopped up opening. And much less embarrassing when they are not inside that big hole in the wall.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>If I pull off the two brown facing boards, I should be able to remove the whole side of the overhang and get to everything in there.

I wouldn't bother pulling the brown board off, it's not hollow inside there. There should be 2x's supporting the porch in there. If they are going to be in that wall it will be above that, behind the stucco. I would look on the inside of that wall for light plywood paneling that could be easily removed. If you don't have a laser thermometer then drill a hole first to verify that there are bees in there before pulling the wall apart.


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

I agree with what others have written above. I think the bees are in the floor joists between the first and second floor.

It is probably a nice size pocket in there. 5 1/2 inches tall by 24 inches wide by as deep as they want to make it.

If I were in your shoes I'd either shy away from this job, or if determined to undertake it make sure you got some good natured people in the house, because you are going to tear it up pretty bad.

I also agree with starting on the inside. It is much easier to repair sheet rock that to repair that stucco.
_
_


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Here is what you most likely going to find.

http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/Temp/?action=view&current=bees034.jpg


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

iddee, were you able to remove all that comb? How'd you remove the stuff that extended futher into the wall?

Went to look over a potential cut out. Lady had the largest yellow jacket colony I've seen in a house - they were bearding outside the entrance. Those I don't remove.


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

*Now I'm getting worried...*

I think I'll go over there tomorrow with my bell-hanger bit on the cordless and see if I can find them. I've got a stethescope, but I'm not sure I'd be able to hear them thru the wall or ceiliing. Would I?

You know, if I knew a firefighter with one of those thermal imaging scopes, I could pin point them exactly...


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Yes, I got it all. Here is a closer view. You can see the back of the opening on the left side. It wasn't far to reach in.

http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/Temp/?action=view&current=bees033.jpg


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

iddee said:


> Here is what you most likely going to find.
> 
> [/url]


I've taken a lot of hives out of buildings, but I've never taken out any fish!


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>You know, if I knew a firefighter with one of those thermal imaging scopes, I could pin point them exactly...
__________________

Hey, any reason to buy a new tool is a good one.

Go to Sears and for about $30. you can get a laser thermometer that can detect the surface temperatures from 6 inches to eight foot away.


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

BULLSEYE BILL said:


> Go to Sears and for about $30. you can get a laser thermometer that can detect the surface temperatures from 6 inches to eight foot away.


Really... Hey, Sears is on the way home. I'm outta here.


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## Budster (Mar 24, 2006)

If I took a guess, I'd bet they are in the rafters/joists of the "overhang" or the porch roof...

PS - I have a laser thermometer, tried using it before, but I dont think you could really detect much differences with sheetrock, stucko, etc...

I did just go out and try an experiment...

Side of hive box where no bees are - 84 degrees. (Average)

Measurment taken within the beard. (I have a big one right now). 82 degrees (Average)


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>PS - I have a laser thermometer, tried using it before, but I don't think you could really detect much differences with sheetrock, stucko, etc...

The nest site inside of a structure will usually be about four degrees warmer than the surrounding area. It is the surest way of detecting them without making a hole.


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

Well, I picked one up from Sears, but it was substantially more than $30. Still, gotta love new tools... 

I'll stop by the house tomorrow after work and see what kind of readings I can get.


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

*Thanks Bullseye Bill and Iddee*

And others, of course, but iddee's pics really got me thinking...

Headed over there at lunch with my brand new infrared thermometer. Went right inside the house to the ceiling just about where the outside entrance would be. Average ceiling temp was around 77 degrees until I scanned over one area that jumped to 85. Did a little tapping on the ceiling and localized two floor joists. Then used the thermometer to determine how far into their living room the brood nest went between those joists. About two feet! That leads me to believe that the actual comb would probably go another foot past that, assuming that honey comb would not project the same amout of heat as brood comb, and there would HAVE to be honey with that much brood.

Well, unfortunately, the homeowner was not happy. They pulled the plug on tomorrow's extraction until they could decide what to do. I couldn't guarantee that there wouldn't be bees flying in their living room during the process, so they might end up exterminating. Bummer.

QUESTION: if the bees have to be killed at the owner's insistence, is there a way to do it without contaminating the honey? I thought that maybe CO2 would work if pumped in thru a hole.


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

Now that you know where the bees are lets talk about ways to get them out.

1. Remind the homeowner that killing the bees just prolongs the mess. All that brood and honey has to decompose and it will stink at a minimum. If SHB get into it the whole mess will get wet and soggy and come crashing down into the hallway anyway. If that happens it will STINK and be full of SHB maggots. So killing is not really an option.

2. Consider doing a limited trapout for 3-5 days or so to rid the hive of all the foragers. This will make the remaining bees rather docile once you do open the ceiling.

If it were me, I'd remove the front door and tack up a 2x4 all the way around the inside of the front hall of the house and staple up some plastic. This way when you open up the ceiling all the bees will be confined to the hallway or fly out the open doorway.

Then open the ceiling and cut them out. Vacuum, tie up some of the brood, whatever sequence you want just get 'er done.

Have all the bees and the mess outside the front door at least a half hour before sundown. Once the sun goes down, vacuum up all the stragglers and late arrivals home and rehang the door.

If you start about 3 or 4 you can be out of there by 8:30 or 9. If you have a helper it could go faster. Assuming sunset is about 8:00 with it being quite dark at 8:30, if you had a helper and the right tools - you could start as late as 5 and be done by 9.


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

Don't forget some "great stuff" style foam to close off the original entrance once you get in there.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

OK. Picture time again. Look at the ones labeled Sedgefield.
It was the same situation. Same entrance, same location over living room. Only difference, mine was built in the 17 hundreds and the ornate wood work in the living room could never be matched. Trap out was the only answer. 7 weeks and three 10 frame boxes and a nuc full of bees.

http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/TRAP OUTS/

Troy is right about the mess. Remind them that without the bees, there could be up to 200 lbs. of dripping honey and melted wax for the mice, roaches, ants and other pests to be feeding on, not counting the gooey mess destroying the sheetrock wall and ceiling. Killing is NOT a great idea.


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

I agree. Killing should not be an option. It's not a really old house. There's no historical value. The ceiling is drywall. The husband is a drywaller by trade. So, unfortunately, you see where this is going. He's telling me he'll probably plug the outside entrance, drill a hole in the ceiling, then squirt in an over the counter pesticide. After a day, he'll just cut out the drywall, scoop out the dead bees and comb, and patch it up.

Pretty disappointing scenario for me.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

*You can't save them all*

And I walk form a good number of jobs where I wish I could have saved the bees. Sometimes they don't want to pay my price, sometimes they don't want to deal with the repairs, and sometimes they are just cheap or can't afford it.

I think that is the value in having a good publication to give clients and let them study without the underlying notion that you are just trying to sell them a service. I give everyone I contact a condensed version of this publication

--> http://www.sembabees.org/toplevelpages/bees_in_wall.html

They have modified the publication since I made my flyer, but you can make your own or use it as it is.

This one is good too.

--> http://entweb.clemson.edu/cuentres/eiis/pdfs/ap3.pdf

Since the homeowner is going to have to deal with the bees one way or the other and have to patch the ceiling, he might come to his senses and have you remove them especially if he thinks he might get stung up.

If I were going to remove them I would;

Take the furniture out of the way
Put a good heavy tarp on the floor
Cover it with heavy plastic
Make a wall of plastic around the working area including the walls
Leave the door open as the bees will go to the light, if they can go outside they will return to the opening
Set a small scaffold or make a platform to stand on
Suit up 
Cut away the sheet-rock
Vac the bees off the honeycomb only, not the brood comb
Chisel out the empty comb and honeycomb, vac combs in hand and set in bucket, use separate bucket for honeycombs and brood combs
Cut out a brood comb with bees attached and band into frame, set in nuc box
Repeat until you see clumping bees, then scoop clumps of bees with small container and dump onto brood frames in nuc box
Once all brood frames are filled and clumped bees are scooped onto the box, vac residual bees and scrape off all remaining wax from structure
Cleanup area and remove equipment. Remove the vac last so you can vac late returning bees.

It is at this point I will either use a soapy water spray and or set a bug bomb to get the bees that have retreated to areas that you can not reach.

Yeah, doing indoor jobs is a real mess, but if you can cover everything with plastic and leave the ceiling light off it makes it easier. Let them go to the window or go out the door. It seems like the first thing they want to do is crap on anything they are crawling on, so use lots of plastic.

When you are chiseling the comb off the ceiling there is no way to keep it from raining honey, try to keep the scrap buckets under the work area. You will see the bees going to the area where you cut the comb off and lapping up the honey, don't be in a hurry to vac those bees. Let them help you clean up the honey, there is plenty of time to vac them after they clean it up.

Also have the nuc box close so when the queen is finally put into the box they can find her and start clinging onto the box or going in it.

In that second publication I think I saw a recommended list of tools, check it out.

Well even if you don't get to take them out I hope I have given you something that you can use.


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## John Gesner (Dec 17, 2005)

BULLSEYE BILL said:


> Well even if you don't get to take them out I hope I have given you something that you can use.


Yes sir, you have. Thanks, Bill. If there's anything I've taken away from beekeeping in these 6 years, it's "live and learn".

I really had my hopes up for this. Had my list. Thought thru the process. It's a big let down, to be sure. But thanks to all here, I'll be all the more ready the next time.


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

I've had this same kind of thing occur a couple times. I've even had them call me back after they've sprayed them a couple times and then ask me to come and and help them out.

This guy is going to spray something in there and it won't hardly make any difference. Non of the spray liquids penetrate far enough. You have to use a dust and usually a power blower. With spray he might get a 10% kill rate. If he does it every day for a month, he'll weaken them enough they may eventually die out on their own, but the mess will be awful. I feel for the guy. A month from now he'll be sorry he didn't pay you $500 to solve this problem for him.

I think from now on I will tell people that if they spray them, they are on their own. I don't want any poisoned bees.

Thankfully I've formed a working relationship with a professional pest control guy. IF I find things like this that are either too hard, or the customer doesn't want to wait the time a trap out takes, then I refer them to him. He does the same for me. If he finds hives that can be rescued, he refers them to me and quite a few people want to save the bees if they can. Often times I try to match the price he quoted them to kill them so the customer can feel like it was the same price, and they "saved the bees". That way even though their house is messed up and they've parted with some money, they feel like they did their good deed for the week.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

If you have a spare kitchen sink, it might come in handy too. Only thing for sure is that when you get there there will be at least one thing you didn't bring that you could use. Thats why beeks learn to improvise.


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