# What are your thoughts on using medium supers exclusively?



## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

If you are getting older and lifting is becoming a burden then mediums is probably a good idea, right now I have all deep brood boxes and I like them because of the larger comb area for brooding, however where the honey supers are concerned I run mediums and shallows.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I run all eight frame mediums. I spent 26 years running all deeps and shallows, a year or two running all mediums and the last decade running all eight frame mediums. I won't go back without a huge incentive... and I don't see that happening.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

2 deeps = 3 mediums. 2 deeps cost about 70 cents on the dollar compared to 3 mediums for the same box width with the frames. 8 frame boxes cost about the same as 10 frame per box. so 10 frame deeps have much lower cost than 8 frame mediums, a bit over 1/2 the price... your choice.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

All mediums allows you to move frames where ever you need to. If the brood chamber gets honey bound, just move them up. Too much drone comb, move them up and they become honey storage. Mediums are the only thing I've ever run except for a few nucs that I kept until I could transition them to mediums.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

I'm 73 and cheap so I use 10 frame deeps, the brood boxes I can move alright, the honey supers not so good, so I just sit an empty beside the hive, move five frames into it and I can move both boxes without a problem. It takes only a couple of extra minutes at the most and solves the problem without hurting my pocket, also I think the brood do better in the large boxes. JMO


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

stan.vick said:


> I'm 73 and cheap so I use 10 frame deeps, the brood boxes I can move alright, the honey supers not so good, so I just sit an empty beside the hive, move five frames into it and I can move both boxes without a problem. It takes only a couple of extra minutes at the most and solves the problem without hurting my pocket, also I think the brood do better in the large boxes. JMO


a man after my own heart. I am 63 and work for a living, the full deep boxes are nice, I am thank-full for all the good work by the bees.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

We use deeps for brood boxes, and mediums for the honey supers. Yes, it's true, there is a slightly higher cost up front to buy boxes and frames for mediums because you need a few more to reach the same amount of comb. It's a one time expense, and trivially insignificant compared to the cost of back problems later in life.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

stan.vick said:


> I'm 73 and cheap so I use 10 frame deeps, the brood boxes I can move alright, the honey supers not so good, so I just sit an empty beside the hive, move five frames into it and I can move both boxes without a problem. It takes only a couple of extra minutes at the most and solves the problem without hurting my pocket, also I think the brood do better in the large boxes. JMO


I run double deep brood boxes and medium supers. I still move 1 frame at a time from the supers. I can lift them... I can lift the deeps... I am 68 years old and in order to continue being able to lift them, I don't except when there is no other alternative.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I like the "idea" of all mediums, but the bees seem like deeps and for me it's much easier to look thru 2 deeps rather than 3 mediums. I rarely have to pick up a full, heavy deep as they have bees and brood in them vs the heavier honey. I compromise, deeps for brood, mediums for supers.........


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I started with 8 frame deep brood boxes with medium supers, started making my own boxes and find that scrounging timber to make mediums is much easier and cheaper than timber for deeps. Then also when finding problems and having to move frames with all mediums is a definite plus. I think it is sometimes easier to find the queen in a crowded medium as against a crowded deep. But still ends up being the beeks choice.
Johno


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I started with 8 frame deep brood boxes with medium supers, started making my own boxes and find that scrounging timber to make mediums is much easier and cheaper than timber for deeps. Then also when finding problems and having to move frames with all mediums is a definite plus. I think it is sometimes easier to find the queen in a crowded medium as against a crowded deep. But still ends up being the beeks choice.
Johno


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

D-man said:


> I have heard some good arguments regarding going to exclusively medium supers. Essentially all equipment is interchangeable.


There are many pro and cons using mediums or deeps and the arguments supporting either choice seem endless. Any combination will work, but you need to make a choice based on "your" needs or limitations. 

Switching to all mediums was the best move I made for "my" purposes. I started out with double deep brood boxes and medium supers. My biggest headache was trying to control swarming in the spring with that set up. 

If the broodnest became backfilled I needed to remove deep frames and replace them with empty comb deep frames and open up the broodnest to help prevent swarming. There was nowhere to move the backfilled deep frames to. I had a limited number of colonies and was not interested in expansion ... so what do I do with the deep frames backfilled with nectar? Where do I get empty comb deep frames from? I never seemed to have enough. Swarm control became a real struggle.

With an all medium set up the problem is solved. Simply move the backfilled medium frames up into the supers and replace with empty mediums in the broodnest. 

Everyone has their own preferred set up that works best for them. I personally love having all mediums. It's a little more work during inspections, and there is some additional up front cost, but the benefit of improved swarm management and ease of interchangeable frames is well worth the extra effort and expense. It immediately eliminated a good portion of my swarming problems and simplified my management routine with just one size frame for everything. If I was running a large operation I might see things differently, but with 10-15 colonies it is the most practical set up for me.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

When I started I scrounged equipment from the old timers that had not kept bees in a while. As people found I was a Beek they gave me all their old gear. As I started building my gear from rough lumber I built the largest standard box I could get from the lumber. 
Bottom line: It seems like the frame I need is always in the shop or I drag around multiple boxes of all frame sizes for each inspection. I never know what I have enough of or what I need. I am constantly inventorying equipment trying to figure out if I will have enough or trying to determine if what is on sale is worth stocking up on. Only disadvantage I can think of is selling bees or getting nucs seems to be an ‘all deep frame’ operation.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I have always ran 10 frame mediums for the simple fact of standardization. That's all I can add because I have no personal experience with anything else.


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## jrhoto (Mar 2, 2009)

If you can go with all medium honey supers do it. It will save you a lot of time and effort in the long run. One size box one size frame. I used to sell lots of shallow supers and now I sell more medium than shallow. Some people use only mediums for honey supers and also for brood.
John
poor valley bee farm


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

You can run all mediums and still segregate brood combs from "honey only combs" if you wish. It only takes a couple of seconds to spray a color code on the top bars. That way you could choose to run foundationless for instance in the brood area and wax foundation for honey supers. Your frames and boxes could all be the same. If you want to freely interchange just forget the spray can!

I am reconsidering my options; still on 10 frame deep broods and medium supers but in 4 years things have gone from OK to just about Unh Oh! 8 frame mediums are starting to beckon to me!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I think you'll find that reading many of the posts here and elsewhere on BS is that (except for the commercial guys) as you age in both actual years and beekeeping years) you wish you had all mediums..... Maybe that should tell you something.......


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I am just a newbie. When starting, I read through the various threads and choose to run all mediums for frame interchangeability. I am still happy with that decision. This is especially useful during swarm-prevention season, as Mike Gillmore notes above. It also has its advantages in not needing to stock multiple sizes of equipment, especially frames.

At the time I also made the decision to run 8-frame boxes rather than 10-frame boxes. The jury is still out on that one. I sometimes wish for 10-frame boxes so my hives don't get so tall. I do have a couple of 10-frame hives, and it is nice that they stay shorter. But, the 8-framers are certainly lighter than the 10-framers. I am in my mid-50's, and maybe the 8-frame decision will come into its own as I age.


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## hjon71 (Feb 25, 2013)

I decided on all mediums for all the reasons mentioned already. AFAIK the bees don't care, at least they haven't said so yet ;-)


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I suspect my neighbor will be switching to all mediums soon -- she simply cannot lift a ten frame deep, and while I'm certainly happy to help, I cannot be available all the time.

Initial cost is higher for all mediums and it will take longer to extract since you must do more frames, but if it's nearly impossible for you to manage deeps full of honey and you have more than one or two hives or limited time, you are better off with mediums than deeps and certainly better off than with a mixture of sizes. 

It does not matter much to the bees. Might work better for them to have deeps or Dadant deeps, but if you cannot manage them, they will be worse off from neglect.

Peter


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## sweetas (Apr 16, 2012)

I run nearly all what is called a WSP in Australia. it is 73% of a "full depth' and 8 frame boxes. I run two brood boxes. A 8 frame WSP box full of honey weighs about 25 KG, a 10 frame FD 45 k.

It is much simpler running the same frames top and bottom. Unless you have a very good reason to go FD , run with the smaller ones. YOur bee keeping will be much more enjoyable.

Have fun

Geoff


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

I plan on just sticking in 1 inch closed cell foam on each side of my deeps when I cant lift them anymore, that will make them 8 frame deeps with the same lids and inner covers. I almost went with med boxes but like to sell a few nucs each year and the norm up here is deep frames


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

psfred said:


> and it will take longer to extract since you must do more frames,


That depends on what kind of extractor you have. We have a 9/18 unit, so, we can do 9 deeps in a load, or 18 mediums. Twice as many frames per load, gives a slight advantage to mediums for time to extract in our case.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

BGhoney said:


> I plan on just sticking in 1 inch closed cell foam on each side of my deeps when I cant lift them anymore, that will make them 8 frame deeps with the same lids and inner covers. I almost went with med boxes but like to sell a few nucs each year and the norm up here is deep frames


 I like that solution, all kinds of possibilities, put in a couple more and have nice six or seven frame stackable "nucs" for overwintering in the colder regions, pull them out for great honey flows, almost no added weight. Great interchangeability.


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## mc1960 (Jul 28, 2014)

That what I thought as well. 



grozzie2 said:


> That depends on what kind of extractor you have. We have a 9/18 unit, so, we can do 9 deeps in a load, or 18 mediums. Twice as many frames per load, gives a slight advantage to mediums for time to extract in our case.


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## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

I use deeps for brood and mediums for honey supers. Brood boxes are no where near as heavy as honey supers so the deeps are no issue that way. Easier to use deeps for brood due to commonality and mediums for honey aren't too heavy. All mediums are too much equipment and too much money.


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

I use 8 frame mediums. For weight and standardization. 50 years ago I used 10 frame deeps. Busted my back in 84 and got rid of all that equipment and helped pay the medical bills. 1 back injury or fall from lugging the 10frame deeps around and all that $$ someone saves, flys out the window. I'm totally 8 frame mediums and will stay that way.
Bees could care less.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Queens sometimes lay more brood in 2 deeps than in 3 mediums in cold, Northern climates, otherwise, all mediums makes a lot of sense. 

I run all 10-frame Langstroth 6 5/8" mediums (phasing out the last of my deeps, actually) with 3 vertical slots running down the insides of the short ends of the box. I can use these boxes with hive partitions to use as 3 x 3-frame mating boxes (special, narrow inner covers and screened bottom boards), as 2 x 5-frame nucleus colonies, as 2 x 4-frame nucleus with 2 frame feeders and a partition, as 7-frame + queen includer partition for breeder queen isolation, as a 10-frame deep, or with a frame feeder or any number of "hive dummies" to use for 6, 7, 8, or 9-frame hive bodies, and for honey supers. That's a lot of uses from all my boxes, any one of them, except for the few remaining deeps that will soon get sawed into mediums. 

10-frame mediums max out at 51 lbs. when full of honey, lighter than that most of the year. The deeps weigh 90 pounds, and my knees complain louder than my back. My hands have been injured, and I can barely handle the 50-pounders. I'll probably go to 2" thick material for the 16 1/4" ends so the "smile" handles are deeper, and add cleats as well - dropping a box of bees is a big no-no. Ask any bee.

Also, build a beekeeper's sawhorse, also known as a "super horse". It's like 2 sawhorses that look like Siamese twins, wide enough (20") to put 2 or 3 of your boxes on while you're working them. Guys make them with a coat hangar rod for a handle in the middle for easy transportation. This devise really saves your back. Lighter boxes, a super horse, and a nucleus seat toolbox really help keep your back and knees working longer and feeling better.

Don't let anyone call them "Woman Boxes" or "Wuss Boxes". Just answer, "Who's gonna be the Wuss when your back's no good anymore and mines still slinging beehives?"


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

ONE SIZE FITS ALL :thumbsup:


K.I.S.S.

I don't care for the last "s" but it's part of the phrase


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## HeritageHoney (Feb 28, 2013)

D-Man
In your case, you probably don't want to lift a full deep if you just at lunch at Pearly's or over in Dawson at Mrs. Paul's. Those are just two places to name a few. Man I miss the food down there.


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## MrFITpanther70 (Jun 3, 2014)

Just replying the the original idea of strictly super use, I like the thought of wintering in 3 fat supers; ripping the top super off on your next crop. I have picked up a super hive and i'm pretty sure the **** thing weighed just as much as a fat deep. You could possibly save money with all mediums but in my operation Im trying to primarily stay with all deeps. I've seen success with this method.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

kilocharlie said:


> Queens sometimes lay more brood in 2 deeps than in 3 mediums in cold, Northern climates, otherwise, all mediums makes a lot of sense. 10-frame mediums max out at 51 lbs. when full of honey, lighter than that most of the year. The deeps weigh 90 pounds]
> 
> must be some kind of magic new math. it takes about 1 1/2 medium frames to equal a deep frame ..so 1 1/2 times the light 51 lb. medium box [ 1 1/2 times 51= 76 lbs.] this really is less than the heavy 90 lb. deep box! new math for me?? or is deep frame honey a lot heavier?.. later edit. I am surprised no one pointed out that 1 1/2 times 51= 76 1/2... but they were light 51 lb. mediums I suppose.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I started out deep and med super moved to med then moved back to deeps and med. I have one jumbo box that I like to.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

Why do people think they have to pick up a full deep or med box? I have a bad back, bad legs, a shoulder that don't work sometimes. I work with langs, deep and med,long boxes and kenyas. I don't left the hold box at a time, put some of the frames in a spare box, keep it simple. JMO


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## bugmeister (Feb 26, 2013)

KiloCharlie- can you send an image or plan for the super saw horse? Coat hanger references has me confused? B thanks


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

The super horse has a rectangle made of 1" x 6" lumber. The length is 52" (a little bit more than 3 box widths) and the width is 19-7/8" (one box length).

Cut 2 pieces 1" x 6" x 52", but cut both ends into a trapezoid with 12 degree angles (er, 90 degrees minus 12 degrees = 78 degrees, actually). The bottom is still 52 inches, the tops are a little bit shorter. This is so the legs will have caster angle and the horse will be stable an unlikely to fall over. If you have a table saw, rip these 12 degrees along the top sides only, one right and one left. Or, you could use a hand plane after the rectangle is assembled.

Cut 4 pieces 1" x 6" x 17-7/8" if using nominal size lumber, (finished lumber is 3/4" x 5-1/2" x 18-3/8"). Again, cut them with a 12 degree angle so the bottom is to length and the tops are a little bit shorter. 2 of these pieces will be ends (and also get a 12 degree rip), 2 will be "ribs" to which the handle is attached (don't rip angles along the tops of these).

Cut 4 pieces of 2" x 4" x 38" lumber. These are the legs, they are cut longer than the comfortable height. They will get trimmed to your comfortable height later, a double-mitre cut.

Cut 4 pieces of 1" x 4" x 24". These will be diagonal braces. Find 2 scrap pieces of 3/8" to 5/8" ply large enough to cover the ends (you can do this after it is assembled, then directly trace the shapes on to the plywood before cutting).

First assemble the rectangle with the 52" long sides butted outside the ends. I recommend an outdoor grade wood screw, #12 x 2-1/2", but use whatever is reasonable if you have a spare bolt bucket.

Second attach the legs so that the tops stick out above the rectangle. Lay your hand cross-cut saw sideways flat on the rectangle and trim off the tops flush with the rectangle. Presto! Perfect double-mitre cut first try!

Third set the horse upright on a smooth, level floor. Attach a flat carpenter's pencil to a wood block. Sliding the wood block along the floor, trace around the legs parallel to the floor (the more height of the block, the shorter the legs will be). Flip the horse over and cut the legs even with the lines. You should now have a perfect double mitre that stands perfectly flat on the floor, but it rarely happens perfect. Use a wood rasp on the long leg(s) until it sits to your satisfaction.

Fourth line up the two ribs, clamp them together, and drill them dead center for the 1-1/2 inch diameter x 12 inch long coat hanger rod handle. You may wish to drill them a little bit undersize and file the holes to fit tight. If you cut two blocks 2" x 4" x 10" to sandwich between the ribs flush with the angled edges, you can screw these together to make a handle group sub-assembly. Locate this handle sub-assembly at the center of gravity of the horse and attach it with the angled ends of the ribs and the spacer blocks mounting inside the rectangle about midway between the ends.

I'll try to get a photo. Good luck.


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## bugmeister (Feb 26, 2013)

kilocharlie- thanks for the very detailed description. ill give it a shot! B


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Bees of SC said:


> Why do people think they have to pick up a full deep or med box?


Fussing thru a frame at a time, works ok if you have only a couple colonies to deal with. But if you show up at the bee yard, with a couple dozen colonies to pull honey from, one no longer thinks in terms of 'frames'. The escape boards go in today, and the boxes come off tomorrow. Opening them all up and dealing with a frame at a time, just wastes a ton of time, and creates a huge problem with bees buzzing all over trying to get at those frames you are fussing with.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

grozzies2, I understand what you are saying, however, a lot of people on here are newbees and don't have a couple dozen colonies. They are new and are looking at each frame. I only have 52 hives. I don,t look at all frames any more but I don't have time to look at 3 times the frames...JMO


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

I was going to do all mediums but my local nuc suppliers only have deeps. Since I'm just getting started I'm running a deep brood chamber in the spring on at least four hives I'm getting nucs to fill. After that, I don't know. Maybe all mediums.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

You can always cut deeps into all mediums later after you shoulders go to pieces. I set the table saw ripping fence parallel to the blade at 6-5/8", set the top side of the box against the fence and cut, flip the box 90 degrees, cut, flip 90 degrees, cut, etc. until it's a medium. You could cut frames down after they come out of the solar wax melter, and notch it for a new bottom bar, or you could just order new medium frames. 

Some folks have even cut 10-frame boxes down into 8-frame equipment. It's not impossible, just a bit of work. If you really prefer a 40 pound limit, 8-frame mediums are the way to go. They *DO* involve somewhat more intensive management. You have to split or super them earlier in the season on a good nectar & pollen flow.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

My recommendation on cutting down boxes is to cut the opposite sides of the box. Stop put in a shim, tape it up with masking tape. Run the other two sides. The cut off piece will stay neatly attached to the box. It makes a nice, clean cut for feeding shims or if you are building boxes and put plywood in the bottom of the box it makes a perfect fitting inner cover. 
If you do not tape it sometimes the last bit of the cut will fall over and tear out the wood.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Carbide saw blades make a really ugly sound when cutting deck screws and nails. They eat some but they don't really like 'em!:no:

minz; good tip on taping to prevent the last bit splitting!


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## D-man (Dec 3, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies. I believe I have decided to do all med 10 frame.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

If you put 3 slots down the insides, you get use as 3 x 3-frame mating nuc's, 2 x 5-frame increaser nuc's, 7 + 3-frame breeder queen isolation hive using excluder partition, and as a regular old 10-frame medium. I think you'll love that setup, I've had no regrets other than not having started out with them that way.

Good luck!


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