# Probiotics in prepared patties...WORD from the sacred Mountain



## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Not to open up a new can of worms...although it might happen...again.

On a question addressed to the top echelon, known as BEE-L, this fresh out of print:

*Question: "How long will that added bacteria remain viable after the probiotic is mixed into the supplement patties? "now with probiotics" seems to be the latest sales pitch..."


Answer: "Recent research by Dr Kirk Anderson strongly suggests that there would be little benefit of adding probiotics to patties, other than possibly* L.kunkeii, *and that only if the formula was high in fructose."
-- 
Randy Oliver
Grass Valley, CA
www.ScientificBeekeeping.com*


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

The good news is, some folks at the USDA, just got some funded secured to look a bit deeper in this very topic.

Dr. Kirk Anderson is the lead researcher on this project. 
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/projects/projects.htm?ACCN_NO=426268

Title of the project : "*Understanding Honey Bee Microbiota to Improve Bee Nutrition and Colony Health*"

Notice the first word in the title: Understanding. Yeah, that is where it all starts. Or it should.

And as a teaser for those subscribed to the short version of things : 

"*Increasing evidence points to a core honey bee gut microbiota, however the distribution and function of peripheral bacterial and fungal communities in honeybees and their food stores are relatively unknown. Our work will focus on beebread to define the contribution of unknown and seemingly benign microbes to colony health and nutrition.*

Translation: We know some bugs are at work...they are there,....inside and outside of the bee, ...they are really small and tinny...more evidence points to that...but right now, we don't know a whole lot. But we are willing to look deeper. And we will. Y'all stay tuned, cuz more stuff is about to come out, and we will share it with you all. All of it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It is a whole lot simpler if you don't destroy the probiotics that are already there. We live in a society that wants to sterilize every bug that will harm us but we don't have the knowledge or the technique to destroy what is bad so we kill everything in the hopes of killing what is bad. Now that we have done that then we have to put back the bugs that were good for us. But it will be century's before we find out what they are.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

For those of you that have not hit the ignore button...we will slowly move forward and maybe try to piece together some of the stuff that already exists out there. Also, we'll try to look at some other smart folks working on these concepts. 

Because really, the results of Dr. Anderson and his team, won't be published for awhile. This is tedious work. That is why these fine scientists, evidently paid by our tax dollars, have tentatively set the end date for this fine project as February 06, 2019.

But don't worry, bees are very patient creatures, and always have been. Remember, they, the bees I mean...already know all this stuff and they are really good at it. We are the slow ones in this journey.

They've been trying mighty hard to teach us, but sometimes we are a bit slow and have other priorities in mind. Fear not fellow beekeepers...we'll take it slow...and we'll be like the mighty turtle. Tough on the outside, soft on the inside, and willing to stick our neck on the line.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

AM, Had a talk with Kirk while back & he was going to send me some samples to add to my sub and see if there was any noticeable changes. Never did get a sample.  I'll wait for 2019.  We press on our own.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

apis maximus said:


> that there would be little benefit of adding probiotics to patties


if the bacteria aint alive by the time the bees eat it... whats the point?


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Ace,

I feel your anger...and I understand your point(s). But lets slow down a bit, try to clear our heads and hearts...and last but not least, lets learn to use the proper terms and words when trying to make sense of a very complicated( to us) world.

Like I just said...the bees already know all this stuff. There is nothing new to them. 
You are right, their micro-biota, or bacterial populations together with the fungal populations, have been there for a very, very, very long time. So, right out of the gate, lets stop using the term PROBIOTICS. Patience...and we'll get to that also.

When we the people, became interested in these things, we started digging, and we stated to get curious. And as we poked around, we found some things and some bugs that were NEW to us. Not to the bees. So, we used a fancy term, called NOVEL.

Now, novel is simply a word, borrowed from Latin and it simply means NEW...as in new and not resembling something formerly known or used. So, these bugs, were always there, we, the humans just did not know about them. 

Until now...that is. Y'all stay tuned


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Never did get a sample.  I'll wait for 2019.  We press on our own.


Yeah, Keith, I would not hang my hat on that sample coming...but you're right, we press on our own. That's the best kind of pressing. I was reading awhile back, on the BEE-L, of course, that the research put into the MegaBee was somehow related/supported via the USDA/ARS....
Now, I don't want to say something that is wrong or not true. But, when I come over that info that is still on BEE-L somewhere, I'll talk about it. Some very intriguing points were brought up in that particular conversation.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Ian said:


> if the bacteria aint alive by the time the bees eat it... whats the point?


Ian,

I know you are very ready and eager to go whip up some patties. I know, its cold up there where you are...but your bees inside that mighty fine barn of yours are taking a break. Seeing Keith's bees, chomping at his sub, pumping out brood and boiling at the seams, over there in California I am sure gets you very anxious and in a mood to just get something rolling. 

Now back on track.

You say..."*if the bacteria aint alive by the time the bees eat it*"...I say, whoa...lets slow down a bit.How do you know it ain't alive?
But the more important question, what bacteria are we talking about? Fungal populations also? Enzymes added for extra measure like David's bees does?
Strong Microbials DFM stuff? I am not going there...we'll lose focus. But in a roundabout way, we'll address that too. Eventually.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Now then...
The good folks at USDA/ARS getting busy with their research, on our money...also mention the following as part of their objectives:

"*Our work will focus on beebread to define the contribution of unknown and seemingly benign microbes to colony health and nutrition. Beebread provides the bulk of proteins, vitamins and lipids that bees consume. We will determine the microbial succession in beebread to understand the distribution of these beebread-associated microbial communities and whether these communities contribute to the nutritive value of pollen, its digestion and storage.*.."

By now, many I am sure have read all this and already might have an opinion. I'm a bit more slow.

Question: Why would you want to look at beebread if already, many "subject matter experts", said in no hidden terms, that really, there is nothing to see there ? That is, from the angle of a microbe population. 

Bees eat pollen, pollen is pollen, here is the chemical analysis...Bees bring the pollen in the hive, they eat it directly or they store it. So, of course if they store it, it might go bad. Yeah, so some bugs and fungi, might be there and they just help storing the thing...that's kind of the consensus.

Notice in the stated objective paragraph...a simple, yet very clear statement : "*Beebread provides the bulk of proteins, vitamins and lipids that bees consume"*

No ambiguity, no "qualifier" terms used in the statement. What I mean by qualifier...when scientists write stuff up, they like to cover their arse...and they don't like to use simple direct terms. They'll say things like, *it appears*...*speculatively*... *it might indicate.*..*some have suggested*...*there is no statistical significance*...and a lot more.

It does not say pollen, does it? I mean, yes, we all know, no pollen...no beebread. 

But why beebread? 

Well, they tell us, "*We will determine the microbial succession in beebread to understand the distribution of these beebread-associated microbial communities ..*."

Say what? 
Translation: We already know that microbes are there...we are not speculating on this one...not one but more than one communities...they are busy at work...and there is a succession at work.

We'll continue later with that "succession" biznis...this one got to be a bit tooooo long. We haven't even scratched the surface yet.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Hmm, Mann lake claims probiotics in their bulk patty. They must be ahead of everyone on this one. :lpf:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

squarepeg said:


> so have we concluded that the technology may not be quite ready for prime time?


this was a comment a made in the super dfm thread. where did earl run off to anyway?

apis, thanks for distilling the current state of affairs when it comes where science is with regard to understanding microbial communities in the bee diet. randy's response to ian's question pretty much sums it up for me, i.e. we really don't know enough about those communities to be thinking about adding them to feed and the practical outcomes of trying that haven't really been researched properly.

that these microbial communities are important are a given. that supplemental feeds should 'promote' them as keith describes makes sense. playing around this very complex and not well understood aspect of bee biology is, well, playing around.

looking forward to more of your posts on the subject apis, many thanks.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> if the bacteria aint alive by the time the bees eat it... whats the point?


They don't have to eat the bacteria. There is bound to be some in the bee even if you are treating. So just supply nutrients to the bacteria to help it grow.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I find Yogurt is the best, specifically the greek Yogurts, I have bacteria's all over the place, I just let the bees decide which are the best. So far in my testing they see to prefer the raspberry the best. Even in the bee world, its all a marketing game.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

apis maximus said:


> I was reading awhile back, on the BEE-L, of course, that the research put into the MegaBee was somehow related/supported via the USDA/ARS....
> Now, I don't want to say something that is wrong or not true. But, when I come over that info that is still on BEE-L somewhere, I'll talk about it.


this the info you were looking for? it's the only reference on bee-l to megabee and usda.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...1=bee-l&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4

This question was sent to me privately, but I think I'll answer it on List.

None of my comments should have put you off to MegaBee. I can only go by
data, published or unpublished. The USDA has data that suggest that MegaBee
is the best supplement out there. Now what we need is replication in other
trials to see if it is consistent--as you know, we've been burned by data
from other trials.

In a relatively small trial that I ran last summer (12 colonies in each
treatment) MegaBee performed well, as did the homebrew. The trial was too
small to be definitive.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

..but wasn't the whole point of megabee that it was water soluable? The technical issues weren't centered around the nutrition, but in getting protein that can be fed in syrup.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

OK, fellow time travelers, wide eyed wanderers and restless warriors...apis is back...temporarily that is...and while enjoying a late day coffee, we'll proceed with the topic at hand. Thank you all for reading and contributing. Much appreciated. 

Before we proceed further, I have a confession to make. You all be patient with me and my statements I am about to make. It will help us set some things straight, so that our understanding can proceed. 

It is very hard to distill and refine complex issues...I did not say complicated, but complex. Not trying to get philosophical on you, but it is important. We use words to describe a lot of things...that is how we communicate, at least when we do it in writing. So, having a very good understanding of the words we use makes it essential to understand what we are talking about.

We are talking about very complex issues in this topic. Microbiology, Physiology, Chemistry, Biochemistry, Biophysics...and the list can go on. Don't get scared now and start hitting the snooze button just yet. But if you do, that is fine by me.

All these fancy names and descriptions is for us humans to sort things out and try to make sense of things. They seem heavy, long, confusing and sometimes very hard to pronounce...let alone spell and use in day to day conversations. 
I know, some folks go to school to get educated and spend a long time from their short lives, trying hard to master and be very good at all this complex stuff. They get highly specialized. They get degrees, fancy letters in front of their names and sometimes even after their names. The more, the better, so they think. And to some extent, when it comes to getting paid, that is a measuring stick, the society at large likes to use. More power to them.

But back on the farm, we'll try to go as slow and as simple as I can...trying to make sense of things together...and with the help of our best teacher, the almighty bee. 

So please, don't take anything personal and don't feel insulted, spoken down to, ridiculed or whatever else might make you feel angry and ready to fight. I have no agenda, nothing to promote, nothing to sell...I do however, have a lot of questions, just like so many of you out there. 
Not a whole lot of answers, and I've been told, that many answers I do have, are stupid. Fine by me. No offense taken.

There are no "stupid" questions...but there are a lot of answers, that are not stupid so to speak, but they just don't fit.

With this out of the way...we'll move on.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

*@wildbranch2007 & deknow*,

Those are some related issues, yes, but not the thread and discussion I had in mind. I will find it, if unless it was removed. Things happen...you know what I mean?
I am half blind trying to recall and maybe paraphrase...it was about USDA/ARS support ( financial and or technical) to gather data, which in the end was not released to the public, it was deemed proprietary and that was it. I'll leave it for now into the realm of things called alleged.

Specifically to *deknow*'s point, "*but wasn't the whole point of megabee that it was water soluable? The technical issues weren't centered around the nutrition, but in getting protein that can be fed in syrup*."

Well, MegaBee and any other powder form of supplement, with the finely ground components in it, is not and cannot be water soluble.Not in totality that is. At best, it will become a suspension. Yes, it can have, and some supplements do have water soluble components in them, but that is where it ends. Once the water soluble components become dissolved in water, the ones that are not soluble in water are just sitting there. Think about it...sugar is water soluble to a large extent..salt(NaCL) is also..some other salts are too. Fat on the other hand is not water soluble. Fats (oils) do not mix into water...they float. 

Different powders, such as corn flour, wheat flour, soybean meal are not water soluble...that is, if you mix them with water, soem ofit will just sit there and float on top of the water, some of it might get in suspension, some of it might get at the bottom of the vessel you try to mix them in. Particle size plays a major role in this...but is not the only issue.

If, while in WATER, you shake them to your heart's content, as vigorously as you can, they get again in suspension ( the small particles stay suspended in that water). After awhile though, slowly they get back to the bottom of the vessel. So, they are not WATER soluble.

If you add them to a very thick sugar water mixture, or heavy corn fructose syrup, these fine particles, once mixed, they just stay in suspension longer...but eventually, given enough time, they will settle again to the bottom. Thant is one application Megabee suggests in offering it to the bees in liquid format. 

I'll stop now with the Megabee.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

apis maximus said:


> But back on the farm, we'll try to go as slow and as simple as I can...


hmmm, and then you talk solubles... I think you just lost your audience...


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

God, I wish I'd taken a photo of the bees all over that slimy elk hide in my water trough, soaking in salt and clorox water. Talk about a bacteria source.
Now if I could bottle it and sell it. 

Lauri's Elixir..I can see it now 




Ian said:


> hmmm, and then you talk solubles... I think you just lost your audience...


All joking aside, I'm listening


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Ian said:


> hmmm, and then you talk solubles... I think you just lost your audience...


Might be Ian...might be. 

I am an audience of 1. Very small indeed.

Anything above that, it's an added, much appreciated and very welcomed bonus . But really, no expectations on my part.

And like I said...we are talking complex issues here. 

Thanks for helping me gauge the level of the complexity of my intended, or unintended audience. 

I'll get back on track shortly, and see if I can simplify things better.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Lauri said:


> God, I wish I'd taken a photo of the bees all over that slimy elk hide in my water trough, soaking in salt and clorox water. Talk about a bacteria source.
> Now if I could bottle it and sell it.
> 
> Lauri's Elixir..I can see it now


Yes, Lauri. I remember that one. As your sales go through the roof, just remember my suggestion I made to you awhile back....the Elk might go extinct...but hey. Just put me down for a couple of queens, health certificate or not...as a token of Karma.

See, now I got t:...on my own topic. Make that 3 queens now.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Just growing pains.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

apis maximus said:


> It does not say pollen, does it? I mean, yes, we all know, no pollen...no beebread.
> 
> But why beebread?
> 
> ...


OK, beloved audience...what's left of it anyways,

We're back talking about pollen, pollen gathering, microbes and their communities and some changes that all these players go through.

That is, from the moment the forager bee, gets ready to bring home the pollen, the gathering process of the pollen grains, the preliminary processing of these pollen grains, and the packing of pollen grains into the pollen baskets (corbiculae). 
We are back to Latin again with this word. It simply means a small basket in Latin. 
I know, I know...I've been told many times...that Latin stuff is for the birds man...we speak English around here. Dully noted.

Once "processed" and "packed", these pollen grains, become pollen loads, or granule, or pellets, we all see attached to the hind legs of the forager bringing it back home. This is what bees "lose" if they have to go through a pollen trap. 
If they don't lose it, then into the comb it goes.

I am not gonna go through the actual process that the bee, gets all "powdered" up and covered with pollen grains. Its a fascinating thing, no doubt.

But notice, the word pollen *grains*. Most of us, know of pollen mainly because it stains our clothes but even more so, because some of us get miserable allergic reactions from it. 

These are very, very tiny small particles, appearing to our naked eye as very, very fine dust. These small particles, called pollen grains, are nothing but containers carrying the sperm cells of flowering plants and conifers. 

They have different shapes and sizes depending of the plant they come from, and those tiny grains are the ones, folks look under the microscope trying to identify the flowers that bees have visited.

These very small, very fine pollen grains the bee processes, packs and presses into her baskets. 

This is the point, where our story with the microbes, starts to come into the picture.

I'll be back.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Back at it again...

Pollen at the flower...pollen gets on the bee and/or the bee gets into the pollen ....bee "works" pollen into the baskets...goes home and unloads the pollen pellets into the comb...other bees start packing the pollen pellets into the cells...while adding "stuff" to it...bee bread starts showing into the picture right about now.

So where are the microbes? Where is the microbial succession thingie? Where are the bugs?

Well, a fine lady by the name of Martha Gilliam at the USDA Research Center in Arizona, started to look at at these things way back in the 1970's. Good ole *deknow* and his better half, have put a lot of effort, into archiving the work and publications of Mrs. Martha, at their web site. 

Those fine students out there, chugging along this trip, would find a world of good information going and digging some of this stuff up at *deknow's* site. I am sure he'll be more than happy to direct those serious students into more fine, yet very important points Mrs. Martha brings to light in her great work.

But relevant to this discussion, suffice it to say that Martha Gilliam, in one of her papers titled, "*MICROBIOLOGY OF POLLEN AND BEE BREAD :THE GENUS BACILLUS*", says:

"*Forty-one bacteria belonging to the genus Bacillus were isolated from almond, Prunus dulcis (= P.amygdalus = P. communis), pollen from the flower; from pollen pellets from traps placed on hives of honey bees, Apis mellifera, in the almond orchard; and from pollen stored in the comb cells of the hive (bee bread) for one, three, and six weeks. Thirty-three of the 41 isolates were B. subtilis, the only species associated with all pollen and bee bread samples. Bacillus megaterium, B. licheniformis, B. pumilus, and
B. circulans were also isolated. Since the greatest number of Bacillus isolates and species were found in pollen from the trap, the foraging bees may have added the organisms to the pollen*."

There is that Latin bizniz again...darn it...I know:scratch:...It appears, really smart folk, for some reason, always like to use foreign( to us) languages. Don't they? Why Latin though? Wait, don't waste energy researching that question quite yet.

So, for now, I am gonna let you process this information a bit...chew on it, think around it a bit, ask some questions, put some thought in it...go ahead cuss at me, and then get back into the understanding part.

When I get back...we'll translate all this mess...and move forward some more.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

No. The pollen starts to ferment as the bees are packing it (with saliva/nectar/honey) into the corbicular baskets.

Beekeepers tend to think of the dusty looking freshly packed pollen in cells as "pollen" and not beebread....but fermentation (including the important formation of 24 methaline cholestorol) occurs before the pollen sees the inside of a hive. This is contrary to the 3 part series on the subject in ABJ a few years back...but they missed one of the Gilliam papers.

Probably the best summary of what was known prior to the new work (non culture based) is Ramona's 2008 talk on the subject at the Nebraska state beekeepers conference.

http://beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/audiovideo/98-2008-microbe-talk


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

:thumbsup::thumbsup:...well finally, I got you to say something. Thank you!




deknow said:


> No. The pollen starts to ferment as the bees are packing it (with saliva/nectar/honey) into the corbicular baskets.
> 
> Beekeepers tend to think of the dusty looking freshly packed pollen in cells as "pollen" and not beebread....but fermentation


*deknow*, is spot on. Them darn pollen grains, so small, so dry so well designed to catch a ride on a wind whirl...they can't just stick together without some help. Have you ever tried to take very, very fine flour and pact it tight all by itself? It just won't stay together...it falls apart.

The smart bee had it all along figured out...yes indeed. The bees front legs brush her proboscis( yea Latin...deal with this one), picking up *pollen made sticky with regurgitated honey*, and also clean pollen from the head and the front of the thorax. 

This indeed, this is the moment when the love affair with the bugs ( bacteria possible some yeasts) STARTS!!!! 
It is not fully fermented but sure gets a good start...the enzymes get busy...breaking down some stuff. 


The forager bee still at the flower, then takes to the air and hovers ( really, really cool), transferring pollen from the front legs, and the posterior thoracic segments to the middle legs...Now from the middle legs, the now sticky pollen, still has a way to go until it gets into the baskets. But I'll let you find out how that goes.

Just like a snake that bites into a rabbit...that venom full of enzymes, starts "melting" down the flesh...pre- digestion so to speak.

Now wait a second...bacteria...yeasts...enzymes...all working together...there is another darn Latin word, borrowed from Greek... for that. It is....SYMBIOSIS...it simply means living together. Now...its still, not that simple and this is wher folks start to get into arguing, debating, copy&paste until the cows come home, the whole nine yards.

But, we'll keep our cool and slowly proceed like the good old turtle.

Now, *deknow*...you have the floor, while I regain my composure. Thanks.


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

apis maximus said:


> OK, fellow time travelers, wide eyed wanderers and restless warriors...
> .


Lol. 
Shouldn't that be "fellow time wasters,"


Interesting thread, thanks 

Seems pollen collected in traps is already loaded with probiotics and phagostimulants (could they be one and the same?), maybe why all the best recipes include pollen.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

This thread gets me thinking about how I can perhaps adjust my protein patty recipe to include some 'fermented' benefits. 
Here's a quick link for getting started on fermented foods.

http://www.culturesforhealth.com/co...-culture-ferment-vegetables-fruits-condiments

After reading that, it's not surprising my bees were all over that elk hide soup with salt and Clorox. After consuming or exposing themselves to that bacteria brew, the resulting fermentation of collected pollen _could_ have been enhanced somewhat. Ya, I'm reaching here, but it 's possible. Perhaps free choice 'bacteria inoculation' for bees would be a good supplement? (Still reaching)

I'm not sure about other farm animals, but foals will commonly eat the manure of their mothers, to inoculate their gut (I am told) with the necessary balance of bacteria for good digestion. Although it is not pretty to see, it something they do instinctivly for their good health. 
Whether is bees or animals, You can't overlook their behavior, whether you like it or not.

(If you look, look at his green lips)
http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1010157_zps9jdckzpd.jpg


Thanks Apis & Deknow your writings also help me to describe the smell of a healthy spring brood nest when you pop the top off a growing colony. 
That warm, sweet, earthy, pungent smell can now add 'slightly sweetly fermented' to the description. 
It's not just the brood in the hive, but the fermenting bee bread. 
That smell is so hard to describe. But is a _wonderful_ thing, especially if you are coming out of a long winter.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, good morning esteemed audience.

I hope you had a good night sleep, and your many controversial thoughts had a chance to settle down a bit. 

Hope that by now, those that are still on this bus, had chance to formulate some more questions and maybe, stir up some new thoughts of your own regarding the subject matter at hand.

Oh yes, I notice that couple of you have done just that. Yes indeed...that is what I am talking about. I am going to do my best to respond back, to each one that brings a valuable point/question/thought that I think brings value to this conversation. If I don't right away, it does not mean I am ignoring your input. 
No, not at all. And if you go and see my other posts on this forum, I never engage anyone, without first trying to understand what they are saying in the context of that particular discussion. That also means, I read the whole thread, sometimes a few times, just to make sure I am not gonna place both of my feet into my mouth. 
I know, some of you, will laugh that one off...but each to his own.

It is not hard at all, to see and begin to get an understanding what a fellow forum member is really up to. 
Just by simply seeing what they say, how they say it, when they say it, and how they respond back when directly engaged. If, to that layer, you add the fact that some folks "define" themselves by a simple tag line, signature, at the bottom of their messages, a context emerges and it gives you, the outside observer, a glimpse into that person's way of seeing the world. 
If those folks also run a blog, a facebook page, etc., then that gets even better. 

So, keep that in mind, but don't make a big deal of it just yet.

OK, that's enough for a small coffee break.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

apis maximus said:


> It is not hard at all, to see and begin to get an understanding what a fellow forum member is really up to.
> Just by simply seeing what they say, how they say it, when they say it, and how they respond back when directly engaged. .


Well said.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Here we go. Back again.



mbc said:


> Lol.
> Shouldn't that be "fellow time wasters,"
> 
> Seems pollen collected in traps is already loaded with *probiotics* and *phagostimulants* (could they be one and the same?), maybe why all the best recipes include pollen.


My pleasure.
Time wasters, is one way to look at it...because as we putts along, time passes by anyways. And also, to paraphrase some other intriguing minds, on a long enough time line, the survival rate of anyone, drops to zero. And that, right there should give us something to think about.

Two terms you bring up: *probiotics* and *phagostimulants*. They are used A LOT!!!! Everywhere the topic of NUTRITION comes into play, these two terms are heavily used. Sadly, more often than not, these terms are, poorly understood, or, not understood at all. I am not mincing words here...I see this fact taking place in circles that folks carry some very impressive CVs around...and have some impressive letters in front of their names. This, *understanding* business, or lack thereof, paints with a very, very wide brush.

Does not matter who's NUTRITION we are talking about. Animals, plants, microbes and last but not least humans. 
Every living critter eats. Every living critter, takes something in, uses it, then, puts something out. Sounds pretty simplistic, and in real world it is. You can have something very simple, yet the foundation of that simplicity is very, very, very COMPLEX. 

As an example of this, take the simple, very famous E=mc^2 thing. Heck. People put it on T-shirts, or bumper stickers. It is very simple, but talking about COMPLEXITY? 

Go grab a paper and a pencil, and get busy on the mathematics alone, and start from the beginning. 
Use all the Google searching, iApps of your choosing, all the easy peasy Internet searching, and see how "simple" this thing is. Not.

Hold on, don't go yet...we have more important things to talk about.

Yes I am being facetious, but on purpose mind you.

Small break.:ws:


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Back into the world of COMPLEXITY...
*
Microbes*...*SYMBIOSIS*...every living critter eats...microbes that participate in the process...they eat too...they put stuff out as they eat...they put stuff out when they've done eating...their stuff influence other microbes in very specific ways...microbes die and microbes are "born" all the time... as they die and as they are 'born" other very complex things happen...snapshots and linear thinking don't do any justice to this "show'... and the story gets very, very overwhelming, very fast. 

But don't get scared, we'll work our way into it.

Sounds like a WAR doesn't it? Like a CONFLICT.:lookout::s:lookout:....

And like in any WAR we automatically look for the BAD guys and the GOOD guys. Every WAR has those. That is how we DEFINE, and ultimately FRAME a WAR or a CONFLICT. GOOD vs. BAD. But, with this way of looking at it...we develop a mind set...that simply will not work if we truly want to *understand*, the story...behind the story.

*@Lauri*, yes, very good, very informative site. Got me a lot of their *cultures* for getting some "*fermentation*" going on. Yes, lots of bugs, microbes that is, involved, doing different things at different times, in different conditions. 

The concept of fermentation is another fascinating topic. We the people did not invent it...it was always there. Just like the fire so to speak.

But folks all throughout the world, going way, way back were using the process of fermentation to their advantage and benefits. 
Fermented foods came "online", way, way before we, the modern, cool hip folk have invented the Cheetos, Nachos, Refrigerators... and other "impressive" stuff we nowadays call, "good, wholesome, affordable food".

Does not really matter what food stuff we are talking about, the process of fermentation, can and does play a role in *changing *the initial food/forage/*substrate* that was intentionally, or unintentionally exposed to the process of fermentation.

Now, as you can see, more NEW words come into this story...and we'll slow down to get to *understand* what they really mean. 
But for now, we'll take another break


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

lauri, do you really think your bees are getting bugs from your salt and Clorox soup. Clorox is generally used to kill bugs, maybe the bees are just after the salt.
Johno


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

To contribute to my previous post about the smell of a healthy brood nest, (which ties into the OP & whole ecological world within the hive) I will forward on some thoughts and information emailed this morning to me from a wise friend:

'Humans have a miserable sense of smell compared to many other animals. Mammals all have over 1000 genes devoted to sense of smell. Think about that number. It is huge. We only have a bit over 20,000 genes total! So, over 5% of mammals genes are devoted to smell. No other sense has more than a small fraction of that number. Most of these genes in humans are turned off so do not function. Most work in dogs. Still, our sense of smell is remarkable.

The reason smells are so hard to describe is English does not have enough words for smells. We likely have, more or less, 300 or 500 different distinct types of individual smells we can detect. Compare that with taste where we only have sweet, salty, sour, unami and calcium. And, the last is subconscious. Plus, with smells it is very rare for only one smell receptor to respond. The result is trained humans that are younger can detect the difference between literally millions of smell combinations. There are too many to have individual words. So, we rely on terrible approximations. Things like fishy, fruity, earthy, etc. Some things even smell good to some and horrid to others. 
When bees work golden rod the odor in part is due to pyridine. You will find two kinds of bee keepers. Those that hate that smell and liken it to dirty socks
and those that think it smells like butterscotch candy.
But, it likely is due to other nitrogen containing molecules and some simply have different genetics for smell receptors than I have and thus smell something entirely different."

Just some thoughts for you  Now it's time for my coffee


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Chlorine is put in swimming pools and your drinking water and it doesn't kill you. It reacts with organic material and then it isn't chlorine anymore. When you think you smell chlorine in the pool you are not smelling chlorine.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

johno said:


> lauri, do you really think your bees are getting bugs from your salt and Clorox soup. Clorox is generally used to kill bugs, maybe the bees are just after the salt.
> Johno


Well, being no chemist, I did checked before mixing two chemicals together to make sure I wouldn't kill myself with fumes. 
Clorox eventuality degrades into simple salt _from what I remember_and it was safe to mix. Although it was not my intent at that time to _feed _it to my bees. Their interest in it at the time was somewhat perplexing.

My mix was also quite weak. A 100 gallon trough, 5# of salt and a slosh of clorox, probably about about a cup. I added the Clorox to try to keep bacteria levels in check. I didn't want the hide to rot, I just wanted the hair to slip so could stretch it out & dry it for rawhide. 

Clorox in a higher, fresher concentration could kill all gut bacteria I am sure. After several days of exposure, I expect the clorox had degraded for the most part. It wasn't until it reached that point the bees became overly interested in it.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

OK, moving forward...again.

But now, we'll take a couple steps back to address some very valid points a few of you just placed on our drawing board since we took the last break.

*@Lauri*...yes indeed, on topic and in the context of the whole *ecosystem* of the hive. All these microbes, yeasts, and maybe other forms, as their eating/partying/interacting/eating some folks/being eaten by others/dead or alive...as they carry on with their daily and nightly routines, a lot of compounds (*stuff* for now) get to show up on the scene. A LOT of this stuff is very complicated to describe in terms used in CHEMISTRY...but AROMAS, FLAVORS, SMELLS, VOLATILE COMPOUNDS, etc...and then, get those to interact and off to the outer space we go. 
Think about it...some folks in the HONEY biznis, will go to some poetry to describe the flavors of what some folks call bee vomit...you wanna get even fancier, listen to the WINE folks describing their "juice" of choice...

SMELL...oh yeah...I mean even the most impaired human, that had his breathing, tasting supporting systems, completely wiped out, and non-functional, will have some sort of an idea what SMELL means and what it does. Dogs...and other critters, just plain WOW.

A very, very complex set of mechanisms at work, and just as your astute contributor points out a very fascinating topic...the SIMPLICITY and SCARCITY of the English language, simply does not do justice. Agreed. Then add TASTE?

On the Clorox/Chlorine...we'll need to clarify something here... shortly.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

I have a question.
What kind of fermentation is occurring at this point? Is it soley lactic acid fermentation or are there others occurring as well? How does the differences in fatty and amino acids in different pollens affect fermentation? At what point in the fermentation process do bees consume bee bread?:scratch:
Maybe I'm getting ahead or chasing a rabbit with these questions.:kn:


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

On the Clorox/Chlorine...we'll need to clarify something here...

Chlorine is a GAS. Because of that, you have to "hold" it somehow...Yes, its heavier than air...but it is a GAS. So, to store it, you either compress it, or "tie" it to some other chemicals. 
If you "tie" it to Sodium( Na)it stays in LIQUID form, and its called bleach...Clorox is the brand name. Tied Chlorine GAS in it, is at about 6%. Common house hold bleach.

If you "tie" the Chlorine GAS to Calcium (Ca), you can "tie" more of it, and get it to be more concentrated, and keep it in SOLID form. This is mostly used in the pool applications *Ace* just mentioned. It goes up to 70%. Water wells, water plants...etc., where higher concentrations are needed.

Does have A LOT of useful applications...but stuff can also be, and is DEADLY. Yes, The DOSE makes the POISSON, but these are the facts about Chlorine.

Some folks, not long ago, during WWI, yeah, war again...were dumping pressurized Chlorine GAS on the BAD guys...a small paragraph:

"*In the First World War chlorine was pressurized in canisters, which were launched at the enemy. This chemical weapon's effect was so horrible, the United Nations banned chemical weapons for military use. The reason for this was because the gas would literally make people drown in the air, as the gas would fill the lungs with liquid. Also, the weapon was somewhat unreliable, as wind could push the gas back into the users of the weapon*."

Sorry for the "detour" but, the concepts of DISINFECTANTS, BIOCIDES, GERMICIDES, ANTi-MICROBIAL AGENTS...will come into discussion a bit later as we get deeper into the rabbit hole, trying to learn more about the MICROBES.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Bleach is sodium hypochlorite, degrades to sodium cloride once oxidized. I find it interesting the discussion turned to fermentation so quickly, I think that's taking it a bit far for most probiotics. Some are just able to break down certain things more efficiently then we can releasing nutrients better or actually making macro/micro nutrients for us where normal digestion could not from certain food compounds. Some of it is as simple as our amylases not being able to break certain carbon bond configurations in carbohydrate chains where as other organisms can, releasing the more simple sugars we can utilize.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Just a short update on how things are proceeding up on The Mountain...on the fast track as they say :

"
>*Can we expect this same conditioning in bees with introduced probiotic
> bacteria and prebiotic agents even though these are not typically found in
> the bee stomach and gut?*

*Good question Ian. I've only seen the results of one controlled trial to
date, using a dog probiotic. There was no benefit. Dr Kirk Anderson (and
likely me) plan to run trials.*
-- 
Randy Oliver
Grass Valley, CA
www.ScientificBeekeeping.com "

This is good stuff folks. It is good news. As in getting curious, and trying stuff out. 
Randy getting into setting up a trials with Dog probiotics... Dr. Anderson, the team leader for the research we mentioned as a starting point in this conversation, will also do trials. Learning is good.
So, maybe, waiting until 2019, for the full, detailed findings, won't be so bad.

But down here, we, the more slow but yet determined, persistent and unrepentant turtles, will keep our learning slow and steady.

We'll be back after a short break


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

JRG13 said:


> I find it interesting the discussion turned to fermentation so quickly, I think that's taking it a bit far for most probiotics. .


Welcome to the party *JRG13*.

Could you please elaborate a bit on what *you* call *probiotics*? 
Just so I know we are all speaking about the same thing. If we do not do that, and start calling stuff in different ways, having different meanings for different folks...we'll end up confusing each other. 

Thank you.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Let's curtail the quoting of discussions taking place elsewhere. Provide a link to it if you want members to read it.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Got it.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

apis maximus said:


> If you "tie" the Chlorine GAS to Calcium (Ca), you can "tie" more of it, and get it to be more concentrated, and keep it in SOLID form. This is mostly used in the pool applications *Ace* just mentioned.


SO in my mind, this immediately leads me to consider bees that are attracted to swimming pools may be looking for not only salt but _calcium _as well.

I started adding electrolytes to both my syrup and protein mix after observing the bees HIGHLY attracted to my drainage pots filled with compost and young fruit trees. I assumed they were looking for minerals, vitamins, etc.

Adding the electrolytes and vitamin mixture in small doses to start and eventually worked up to a dose as I notice the activity at the pots subsided for the most part.
Those observations were done and amounts adjusted over a period of over 2 years.

I selected my electrolyte brand of choice because it was multi species, the list of ingredients seemed more in balance for what I was looking for and it was a more acidic formula. Take a peek at the other ingredients.. Notice the last couple items: Fermentation products
Perhaps that's why my bees gobble up this recipe. 

(I posted large photos so you can read them. I will change it if it is necessary Barry)

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1240021_zpsfidcbmvw.jpg

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1240022_zpsmpen26qu.jpg

A full package will make 200 gallons of livestock water. So you can see why I started out slow, didn't want to overdose.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

apis maximus said:


> Translation: We know some bugs are at work...they are there,....inside and outside of the bee, ...they are really small and tinny...more evidence points to that...but right now, we don't know a whole lot. But we are willing to look deeper. And we will. Y'all stay tuned, cuz more stuff is about to come out...


You could replace "bee" with "human" and this would still be accurate.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Back in the saddle again.

OK, I see more interesting stuff brought up. Cool.

*@David*, yes indeed. Or anything else out there, dead and/or alive. Can't really separate them. I mean you can, and we do, but only so we can get to understand them better. To study stuff...to catalog...to define... to study some more...to eventually try to manipulate. With whatever end in mind.

*@Lauri*, yes, I am familiar with the product.
It has, just like the name of the products says...Vitamins, Electrolytes and...the word "Plus". This product you are describing is presented as *Water Soluble Powder*. The "Plus" part, as you probably figured it out by now is for the last two ingredients in your picture, on the side of the packet. 
Namely, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus *fermentation product*, and Dried Streptococcus Facium *fermentation product*.

I highlighted and bolded some words, because now...I am gonna let you do some homework. That is, in the link bellow, I have provided the actual Product Label ( legally required of the Manufacturer to provide). 
Look at it and see if you spot a difference in the names and description of those two last ingredients when compared to what you see on the package itself. The package you posted in your picture.

Once you do, get back to the class and bring up your thoughts.

http://agrilabs.com/documents/PLVitamins and Electrolytes Plus.pdf

Second question...Notice on the front of the package, the words: *Water Soluble Powder*. OK, look at the column with the vitamins on the Product Label in the link above. Starts with Vitamin A at the top, and go all the way down to the Menadione.
A total of 12 vitamins. 
But, when one talks about vitamins, they are divided in 2 groups. Water Soluble Vitamins ( vit C, Vit B as examples) and Fat Soluble Vitamins( vit A, Vit E as example). 

This brand you are using, has them both. Water and fat do not mix. How is it possible to have a water soluble powder that when you mix it with water, you do not see fat drops ( vit A, or E) floating at the top?

As you think about this, we'll move further and talk about these two specific "bugs" or microbes listed in this particular product of yours.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

apis maximus said:


> How is it possible to have a water soluble powder that when you mix it with water, you do not see fat drops ( vit A, or E) floating at the top?


Emulsifier...


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

@TalonRedding,

*Emulsifier*...yes, that would be necessary to mix water with fats. HoneyBee Healthy and or similar stuff would be an example of some fats( Essential Oils) mixed in water with other stuff that does dissolve in water. In such a way, that it simply stays together and it does not separate. The end result would be an *EMULSION*. This emulsion now, you can add to more water and the fats(oils) will not come to the surface.
There are many kinds of emulsifiers out there. We'll touch on some as we move on.

We touched a few posts back on the concept of SUSPENSION...now we got EMULSION. Two different things. But both very important.

But, in this particular product, that Lauri brought to our attention, that is not the case. Look on the ingredient list and if you see an ingredient that might be the *emulsifier *agent, please point it out.
It is a different approach at work. Not gonna a just give it away just like that just yet...

As a teaser, think about your blood flowing through your blood vessels. Your blood, and mine and everyone else's, is essentially an aqueous solution, but it must transport a variety of non water soluble components as in what we would call blood lipids, or blood FATS(fatty acids,triglycerides, cholesterol, for example). 

One more thing on this solution(s) biznis...Lets use sugar water *solution* as an example...A sugar *solution* is simply a homogenous mixture, in which sugar is dissolved in water. The sugar, dissolves in water, because sugar is *soluble* in water. Not to complicate too much...but at this point, this solution is called an aqueous solution. 

The terms used in PHYSICS and CHEMISTRY are SOLUTE ( in this case that is the sugar) and SOLVENT ( in this case that is the water).

Lots of words, lots of new words I know...but a lot of folks out there are having a very hard time understanding them and ultimately using them in a conversation.

More to come.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

For those that got turned off by the CHEMISTRY and the PHYSICS aspect of my diatribe, do not despair, we'll get over this bump in the road soon. But, I think for those that latter will consider making their own concoctions, some basic understanding is required when mixing stuff. 
You can't just whip up some ingredients, based on a nutritional formula, no matter how well balanced out for nutrients that formula will be. 
Yes, you might pay a "real" nutritionist to run your numbers, and then get busy mixing stuff up. It might work sometimes or most of the times, or not at all.
It does not work like that...there is a lot of factors at play when one puts together a product intended to deliver specific ingredients to a specific target.
When you also add the concept of microbes being incorporated...then, the whole thing gets even more complicated.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

apis maximus said:


> please point it out
> 
> More to come.


I'm gonna gamble and make an educated guess. I vaguely remember emulsification from school. I don't use that education much these days. It's making me jog my memory which is why I'll attempt to answer. 
Salts are important in the body for nutrient absorption. Thus the sodium chloride (NaCl) and potassium chloride (KCl) would be the acting emulsifiers in Lauri's mixture. That's my guess.
I remember the first emulsification experiment we did in chem class at college. We were using lecithin, and it just so happened that we used egg yolks for the experiment. Lecithin occurs naturally in egg yolk. It also happens that egg yolk is a key ingredient for several pollen sub recipes that I run across now and then. Not only does the egg provide protein, it is also acting as a natural emulsifier in those mixtures. How bout that!


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Lauri said:


> SO in my mind, this immediately leads me to consider bees that are attracted to swimming pools may be looking for not only salt but _calcium _as well.
> 
> I started adding electrolytes to both my syrup and protein mix after observing the bees HIGHLY attracted to my drainage pots filled with compost and young fruit trees. I assumed they were looking for minerals, vitamins, etc.
> 
> ...


Those are very interesting observations Lauri.

Not sure what to say on the minerals thing. The bees clearly need them. Pollen, should be the source that would provide those...says the "consensus". Well, it might be...but who's looking at the mineral content of the pollen currently available on the plants we see today? Could we be looking at soil nutrient deficiencies? Pollen is the "spermies" of the plants...Mineral deficient pollen? 

We know of deficiencies...mineral and vitamin deficiencies in both, male and female human populations when it comes to reproductive health. Zinc and Selenium are two particular minerals that affect a lot of feed back loops when it comes to human reproduction. Same in farm animals...I don't know...I wish I knew:scratch:

I mean plants get most of their "goodies" out of the soils. Yeah, people can get the K-N-P combos of their choice...but is that all it is to soil fertility? You mention compost...you mentioned in another post worm castings/juice...Soil microbial diversity is a whole other world of complexities, that as much as some like to ignore, it is there nonetheless. 
I think its critical...but what the heck do I know?



Lauri said:


> Notice the last couple items: Fermentation products
> Perhaps that's why my bees gobble up this recipe.


Perhaps...very possible...yet, I would not jump in it with both feet just yet, until you get to see what those FERMENTATION PRODUCTS really are. But we'll get to it. Eventually.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

TalonRedding said:


> I remember the first emulsification experiment we did in chem class at college. We were using lecithin, and it just so happened that we used egg yolks for the experiment. Lecithin occurs naturally in egg yolk. It also happens that egg yolk is a key ingredient for several pollen sub recipes that I run across now and then. Not only does the egg provide protein, it is also acting as a natural emulsifier in those mixtures. How bout that!


Good effort Talon....That is, on the second part of your statement, which I just quoted. All true in that context. Yes.

Not so on the first part. "*Thus the sodium chloride (NaCl) and potassium chloride (KCl) would be the acting emulsifiers*".

Remember, all this composition is a *water soluble powder*. Yes? 
OK, the product is called...Vitamins, *Electrolytes* and...the word "Plus". 

The NaCl and KCl once placed in water become part of the Electrolytes part. This product is designed for *periods of stress or reduced feed intake.* That would be for the animals you see on the package. Cattle, Swine, Sheep, Horses, Ruminants, Poultry, and Turkeys.

The ultimate, most devastating stress in farm animals is...DEHYDRATION. That is where it begins...the manufacturer, slipped the "reduced feed intake" in there...but that is just the effect one sees after dehydration kicks in. 
Dehydrated animals... don't feel like eating...and those not eating, stop drinking. Once this cycle gets out of hand, becomes very hard to correct.
Same in humans...
So, the Na, K, and Cl...are really critical in everything really...we won't get into the pathology of things when these three players are out of whack.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

oops... Talon,

I forgot the fat vitamins mixing in water...

In human and animal blood, fats travel inside of complexes called LIPOPROTEINS. Fancy word, but all it says is fat (LIPO) and proteins together. Think of a round sphere, a ball if you will, with the water loving(hydrophylic) part sticking on the surface of the ball...and the water repelling part inside the ball. These particular characteristics make them soluble in the water-based blood pool. On a blood test they will show up under the HDL and LDL. 

Doctors call them the good and the bad cholesterol. Really a misnomer...The cholesterol molecule ( fat ) is only one...no good, no bad. HDL and LDL are just the balls/vessels if you will that carry the cholesterol around. Cholesterol cannot travel by itself in the blood.

Really its not a new concept, also soap makers use it...well the modern ones that is. Also, some medical applications employ it. 
*Microsphere technology* some call it... to facilitate absorption of fat-soluble vitamins A, D, E, K and other nutrients even when normal absorptive processes are disrupted. 
In soap making...the concept of *micelles*...these are very small, electrically charged particles that repel each other like opposing magnets when activated in water. They have the water hating/repelling part of the fat, sticking inside...the water loving end on the outside.

So, long story short, some proprietary form of microsphere encapsulation technology and or the micelles are used in Lauri's product. They, are not mentioning that on the label.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

4:45 in the morning here. I need my coffee before_ I_ start replying 

But here is where I'll be going with it. 
Partly because of my limited knowledge of chemistry and my interest in nutrition, I am going to try to occasionally tie some of your information into preparing supplemental feed sources, since as bee keepers, that's one of our biggest ways to influence the colonies health and growth.

Photo from yesterday. A_ fortified_ sugar block.
Why do they like it so much, even though they may have _Plenty_ of natural feed stores and what kind of observations have I noted? This thread may be as good as any to tell.










When I give a colony one of these fortified blocks over winter, I see increased energy from the colony, usually the very next day if it's warm enough for them to be outside the hive. Not increased _activity_,increased _energy_. A slight but importaint difference. I do not want increased activity overwinter. Does that make sense?

I'd compare it to how I feel in the morning before I have my coffee and after I have a cup or two. That increased energy is something that also carries over to their increased enthusiasm. It can make the difference between a sluggish colony in late winter/early spring that just doesn't seem to have the will or drive to build up and a colony ready and willing to get started with the new season. These are observations made over a three year period. 

The ingredients are 25# sugar, 1 quart cider vinegar, electrolytes & vitamins +, citric acid, a few drops of essential oil of choice (for enhanced palatability, not a treatment dose)Topped off after they are formed with a generous sift of dry protein mix.

I don't ever use antibiotics, so I don't feed probio's. But if I did treat, I'd be all over the probiotics info. You can get a large jar at most any feed store if you want to use a dry formulation. But personally, I have no experience using them.

These blocks will also keep your Carniolan strains from brooding down too much between your Maple flow and main flows, so you populations are strong when you want them, but without the threat of stimulating swarming like feeding syrup may induce.

I've been very satisfied with this recipe, but is there a possibility of improving it in some way?

I'm all ears.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, good morning to all.

Being Sunday and all that...*I* will be listening. So, Lauri, you have the floor. Looking forward to see where this day's wandering will take us. I have a good feeling about the things we'll get to *un*cover. Because remember...they are already there, happening all the time right under our own eyes..and noses...we just don't see them...YET.
We are only trying to remove the cover. That is what *uncover* means.

Thank you.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I don't get a day off from work unfortunatly. My posts will be randomly added since is is forecast to be nice warm weather today. If it was raining, I would be more inclined to be inside.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

apis maximus said:


> Because remember...they are already there, happening all the time right under our own eyes..and noses...we just don't see them...YET.


What, we talking about mites now?


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

No, not mites. Not now, not here on this thread.

Facts, processes that take place in the hive. 

The facts, the processes in which the microbes, the bees, the nutrients...all "play" together. Sorry if I confused you. Not my intention. 

But, if you ever perceive something along those lines, please let me know, call me out on it so to speak.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Acebird said:


> It is a whole lot simpler if you don't destroy the probiotics that are already there. We live in a society that wants to sterilize every bug that will harm us but we don't have the knowledge or the technique to destroy what is bad so we kill everything in the hopes of killing what is bad. Now that we have done that then we have to put back the bugs that were good for us. But it will be century's before we find out what they are.


I'm in strong agreement with you Ace. I avoid taking antibiotics for myself, particularly for flu, colds or sinus infections, particularly as you stated that they "destroy the probiotics that are already there". So why should I think it OK to administer antibiotics to my bees? 

I am very interested in the results of others besides Dr. Anderson's work, but am in no hurry to administer pro- or anti- biotics to my bees.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

I agree that the term "PROBIOTICS" in this discussion perhaps muddles things.

Have the beneficial living organisms in the bee's gut been identified. Perhaps studies should focus on what "chemicals" are beneficial to those gut organisms, particularly those that are predators of the virus that weaken or kill bees.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

So, in a nutshell, bee nutrition is extremely complicated.
We know that different pollen has different nutritional values. All the way from protein to vitamins. However, just because nutrition is present does not mean that the nutrition is available or synthesized by the bees. They need a catalyst so to speak. This is where the "little bugs" that we don't see come in as well as other agents such as amino acids, sterols, emulsifiers, sugars, electrolytes, and cholesterol that all work together in a long, head-spinning set of chemical equations. There is not only one process, there are many taking place at different times of the year. For example, I know that bees are needing lots of protein during colony buildup in the spring to produce brood. But this is not the case in winter when brooding ceases and the fatty acid vitellogenin concentration is needed in higher levels for young bees that need to live longer during the winter (fat winter bees). There is a huge difference between winter bees, spring bees, and summer bees. This is where the nutritional standpoint becomes complicated to me. How to recognize the changes and what to do in response to those changes. That is the "meat and potatoes" that I'm after. How can I maximize protein ingestion and synthesis in the spring and how can I maximize the ingestion and synthesis of vitellogenin in the late summer and fall?


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

philip.devos said:


> I agree that the term "PROBIOTICS" in this discussion perhaps muddles things.


Hi Philip, welcome to the CONVERSATION.
Yes it does muddle the things. How about, if on top of that, we add the term PREBIOTICS? Then what? 

Would you care to share what *you* think of, when you see these two terms being used? What do they mean to *you*? I posed the same question to another forum fellow, a few posts above...we have not heard back from him/her. 

Some of you, might think that all this terminology we use in this topic is for the birds...or just for the tenured PhD's out there up in the ivory towers, writing "peer reviewed" articles. 
Not so, and I am sorry to keep pestering you, esteemed audience, with the concept of understanding what the heck we are talking about.



philip.devos said:


> Have the beneficial living organisms in the bee's gut been identified. Perhaps studies should focus on what "chemicals" are beneficial to those gut organisms, particularly those that are predators of the virus that weaken or kill bees.


Am I, correctly assuming, you intended that first part of the above statement to be a question? If yes, then I would say yes...to some extent. I am not hedging my answer. IDENTIFICATION of microbes is not that simple. Quite a few "living organisms" as you refer to them, inside the bee gut...have been identified. But which part of the bee "gut" are we talking about?
IDENTIFYING, is one thing...getting to *understand* what they, the microbes actually do, how they interact, what all that means...long way to go.

There is a good reason why the USDA/ARS study is expected to take so long. Go back to the link I posted with plan of this study. look at their objectives....and sub objectives. Long, very long list. But every one of those objectives are critical to gaining something useful.
Otherwise, we are not getting anywhere.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

apis maximus said:


> No, not mites. Not now, not here on this thread. Sorry if I confused you. .


I was just kidding


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Thank you Talon!
Great summary. Yes indeed...that is the State of The Union when it comes to the bee world. 
And, pertaining to those last questions in your statement...we will get to those also. 
You are right, it is, ultimately, the "meat and potatoes"...but even a simple, meal like that...can be and it is often messed up by the other so insignificant, minute details and ingredients.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

OK, some Sunday evening thoughts on this complex topic.

Just so we warm up for the next week explorations

I hope that by now, besides getting all confused, upset and frustrated with my rantings, you did get a chance to maybe get an idea how complex this whole world of the BEE, really is. 

Considering she never goes to school, this mighty little critter we call The Bee is an expert in a lot of complicated (to us) stuff.

I hope that most of you interested in this topic, are by now familiar with the good work *deknow* and his lady, *ramona* have put into gathering information, talking to people, doing presentations and what not, to really spread the word on all these fascinating interactions between the bees and their bacterial and yeasts populations. 

If you have not listened to Ramona's speech *deknow* linked in post #26 on this very thread, I would encourage you to do so.

Also, maybe by now, you also had some curiosity to dig some more into the works of Dr. Gilliam, that again *deknow* and his lady have archived at their site.

If you did not...that's OK...you still have time....they are not going anywhere.

If we could paint with a wide brush, I think we could safely call this whole thing, Microbial Ecology of the Hive and the Landscape and Environment surrounding it.

Thank you all, for all your questions and more than anything your own personal thoughts and experiences that you so kindly shared.

We'll get back next week sometimes.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Back at it, sooner than I was planning

OK, I am gonna re-summarize, again, where we started, where we are and where we are going on *this* bus.

And as always, first, some logistics and administrative issues. We are in the moving slow department. Every now and then we'll take a detour, certainly unplanned. These detours, might appear as a desperate attempt to get lost. Not so.
We'll make frequent stops and we'll look at things from different angles. We are not fighting, we are not proving or disproving anything.
We are trying to LEARN something. Yes, a very tedious process.

However, we will encourage contradictory opinions...we prefer that they come formulated as your own thinking...we are not gonna go and see who can find more links that prove this, or that. This is not WIN or LOSE.

Turtles are moving slowly, yet very deliberately...however, the wide eyed, over caffeinated hares, that like to run very, very fast, are also welcome. At the back of the class we have some VIRTUAL carrots... But, NO STICKS. 
No tricks on this bus. So, the hyperactive hares are welcome anytime. I am not asking them to be patient. 
They can't. So, to relieve them of tension and anxiety, I suggest they also go up on The Mountain where the fast track is.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

> If we could paint with a wide brush, I think we could safely call this whole thing, Microbial Ecology of the Hive and the Landscape and Environment surrounding it.


The above statement will be the BROAD frame of approaching things. Where is the title of this thread then? Are we going t: ??? Again???

No, it fits right there in the "*Environment surrounding it*". 
Remember, we the people, we the bee keepers, are part of that Environment thingie. 
The Bee did not call upon us to jump into it, but WE DID IT anyways. For our own benefit. 

Since no one that I directly asked in this thread, made an attempt to DEFINE the *words* PROBIOTICS, PREBIOTICS, we'll tackle these first.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Now then...

As some folks like to instantly say, as a matter of routine...First Things First....Back to *words*...and their *meaning*. Cuz, without that first step, we'll put *this* bus in the ditch. We do not want to do that. 
_*Other*_ buses that started right, are sitting in the ditch already...oh, they are 4x4, some could say...but that 4x4 thing, is really overrated. Folks that go 4 wheeling in the mud, know what I am talking about. Once you get stuck...engaging all the wheels and stepping on it...will only get you in, much, much deeper.
*
PRO* *BIOTICS*...It simply means *FOR* (as in supportive of, in support of, favoring, helping)...*LIFE*. That is what the word simply means. We the people, came up with that definition. Initially, and correctly so, a very wide number of "things/stuff" got included under the umbrella of this PROBIOTIC term. For example...air, water, food could placed under the PROBIOTIC definition.

But *PRO*, implies that an *OPPOSING FORCE* exists...I mean you can be *PRO* WAR but you can also be *PRO* PEACE. And sure enough, we the people, came up with another word that signifies *OPPOSITION*. You guessed it right, the word for that OPPOSITION is *ANTI*. When we the people, even on this forum, OPPOSE each other, we simply "fight"...to win or lose an argument. 
In the REAL world, you can have 2, 3,....or more "things/entities" being *OPPOSITE* of each other, but NOT FIGhTInG...

In BIOLOGY and MICROBIOLOGY another *word* used for this, and you will see it often,...is *COMMENSALISM*.....*COM*-*MENSALISM*...simply meaning Common (as in, all in the same place, in common) *TABLE*. 

As in, we all sit at the same table, in common, eating...talking...sharing. Simply being there, doing what we do. NOT OPPOSING ANYTHING. We are, and can be, on each side of the table....OPPOSITE of each other...simple because we are facing each other.
IN COMMON....TOGETHER. That is what the *word* means. We the people came up with it. 
Nature already had IT going already, we saw it, in action, so we came up with this *word* to describe what *we* see.

Ever see birds inside crocodile mouths eating and picking stuff? Lions, hyenas , birds all together sharing a carcass or a fresh kill? Without, killing and fighting each other? Not yet, anyways. That moment, of sharing a meal...at the same table...is what "COMMENSALISM" is. 

Microbes...yeasts...fungi...all those "unseen" little things, also do that. All the time. NO BAD...NO GOOD.

Let those thoughts and words sink in for a moment.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/projects/projects.htm?ACCN_NO=426268
"Determine whether supplemental feed affects the active honey bee gut microbial community. Bees will be fed commonly used brewer's yeast/soy/sucrose-based nutritional supplements containing thymol alone, citric acid alone, thymol and citric acid, honey bee healthy, no additives, and fresh beebread/honey"

opcorn:


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

*FlowerPlanter*,

Thanks for joining the "asylum" bus.... *We* are not in the ditch...yet.
Yes, the link you posted it's been included at the beginning of this curriculum. It was no pre-requisite or anything like that. But, as you point out in the quote above, that is indeed a very important objective/sub objective of the study. 

But, saying "bees will be fed", that is in the future. A bit later. Then, the determining part will come. 
It is the study that Dr.Anderson and his team at USDA/ARS are gonna work on. On US taxpayer coin.

We thought that since the results won't be available until 2019, we might as well get prepared and learn something.

Any thoughts of *your own* about this whole thing we are talking about? I know you can do better than this because I 've been following your writings....beer and popcorn is fine no doubt...but c'mon.

Would you mind addressing the other *word*/concept of *PRE*BIOTICS? 
We just finished with the *PRO* part. You can use the approach we used for the PRO, as a template, or use something different.
What say you?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Sorry about my absence. 

Temps 20 degrees warmer than normal. We have been warm all winter. (Pacific Northwest)
Bees are rearing brood a month early and need protein already, even the overwintered smaller mating nucs. 

Beesource takes a back seat to the real thing.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

awesome lauri. are they bringing in pollen from the field yet or being stimulated by your recipe?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> awesome lauri. are they bringing in pollen from the field yet or being stimulated by your recipe?


Well, this is a highly unusual season for our area.
I've been feeding dry Beepro on and off since late December, out of necessity rather than choice. I've never seen this behavior before and am just adapting my schedule to accommodate early brood rearing. 
I put on my wet pattys finally, since inspections confirm brood rearing has begun. Not wanting to stimulate quite yet, but don't want dry larva ether. The is no natural pollen quite yet, but it shouldn't be far off. 

Everything is growing, not just the bees.



















I'm not worried about a late freeze, my hives are still pushed together with insulation and will be until May. I'm in my mid fifties and have lived here all my life. I've never seen a winter like this one. We've been more like California than Wa.

Something else I am finding. Photo from Saturday. I have several coming out of their third winter. About 50 that have overwintered twice. Colonies look amazing.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood lauri, thanks for the reply. nice photos!


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Apparently I have very timid classmates. 
Given that "pre" means BEFORE and "bio" means LIFE, I'd say that this has something to do with the "conditioning" of a process or substances necessary for sustenance. 
Tell us more Uncle Apis, tell us more! We want to hear the rest of the story!


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Okie Dokie...well, good morning again to all of you dear fellow bee keepers. 

Some of you might be outside, bonding with your lovely, ever so intriguing bees. Some of you, probably inside, but thinking about the good ole' times of spring and summer when you also were doing the same kind of bonding. Not now, though. 
Trying to do "bonding" with your bees in freezing, nasty weather...is not a good thing. 
But, on the bright side of things, you can sure bond with other stuff, such as, things or even living creatures of your choice, all inside where is nice and warm
I know, y'all know this already, and I only used it as a *PRE*amble, to say that, yes, looking after your bees first, should take *pre*cedent over anything else. Including taking a trip on *this *bus. 

With this little administrative "heads up" out of the way, we will now, *pro*ceed on the biznis of LEARNING some more.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Since Keith is only in the early planning stages of his Texas plant. I done bought me a few ton of them thar probiotics plus patties. What can I say. Put em on one day, pulled brood out of them the next. Probiotics rock!


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Talon, you my friend, are on it like white on rice...as the saying goes in some parts of this fine world we live in.

Now, them fine, "real" scientists out there, observing stuff, experimenting and such, taking notes while doing it, have also observed some other, interesting things that take place in that world of the microbes. 

But when they came to the actual definition of the term *PRE*BIOTICS, they just got a bit in a rush (so not turtle like) and kind of left that term up for interpretation. Because, just as Talon points out...the definition of this PREBIOTICS *word*, simply means -before life-. A head scratcher indeed.:scratch:

So, back into the *MICRO*BIOLOGY labs, where *very*, *very small* living things are studied and *IDENTIFIED*, the folks in *very clean* white coats...sometimes in full protective, *disinfected*, *sterilized* gear, while also using *STERILE* "toys" and tools, have notice some very *specific* things. Tedious, very important work mind you...not just some hocus pocus, lets mix stuff up thingie, and see what come out. Not at all.

These extra things they noticed, they realized that they are a PRE-REQUISITE for all these bugs to get to do some very specific things.
That *pre* requisite word, simply means...something, is REQUIRED before something else can take place or proceed. IDENTIFYING all these extra "things", also take time, skill, and all that good stuff. 

But now, these extra "things" are not MICROBES...but they are there, and especially in a lab, *they need to be there* in order for the MICROBES to *UN*COVER their secrets.

You cannot IDENTIFY squat, if stuff is secret, or hidden...Yes, some things are hidden, in plain site, right there, all the time and folks looking at them, would not see a thing. Nature, has no secrets...we the people do....

Y'all ponder and cogitate some more on these thoughts...and new *words*, of course
Because , remember, words are IMPORTANT.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

"Uncle" apis...had some thoughts going through his noggin.....:ws:......again????

Well, I was thinking about a small break in this day of heavy lifting and learning stuff. A very, fancy, "scary" *word* for this mad action I am prepared to take, is....*intermezzo*. For those that do not know what it means, it's OK, look it up. 
Ask *Rader Sidetrack*...I'm sure he'll help you search for it. He is really good at searching:thumbsup:.

So, I was gonna let you in on a secret. Just kidding. 
But no, really, it is something that I am willing to bet a good 2015 mated queen, that what I am about to say, you did not know about it.
And if you do...you did not find out about it in your SCHOOL. No matter what SCHOOL you went to.
In one of the earlier posts, on this thread I did make a reference to LATIN...

Honor system...no cheating please.

I keep bringing these *words* on board. Most, if not all, Latin words, or based or derived from Latin. Old Greek too. 
Now, these two languages, LATIN and Old GREEK are called DEAD LANGUAGES. 
ENGLISH language is called a LIVING language...as opposed to a DEAD language.

What do *you* think this means? 
Think for a second...all the critters on this planet, everything that so far, has been cataloged, *IDENTIFIED*, from bugs to plants...from animals...birds...you name it, has a LATIN name (examples: _*Apis mellifera*_...or, say the *FUNGUS* causing the condition known as chalk-brood, *Ascosphaera apis*). A Latin name that is recognizable anywhere on this planet, regardless of what language is spoken. 

As we shall see later...words do matter. They mean something. There is a lot of specific information in that one Latin name assigned to anything on this planet. 

That's it for today...let those thoughts and words catch some roots in your minds.

Stay warm out there, and be safe.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i think i would rather you just get to the point.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> i think i would rather you just get to the point.


But that would end the pomposity.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

My Goodness! :shhhh: I was wondering who would be the first to suggest that the emperor has no clothes ...


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

"Pompous Maximus"


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Lol


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

After all,
_Apis_ meaning *bee*
_Maximus_ meaning *large, tallest, most powerful* 
That's latin by the way

Shinbone is more than likely correct.

We should just finish the explanation for him. That's what's happening anyways...


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Who is the man behind the maximus curtain anyway?


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

I apologize if I have upset you folks. Not my intention at all. No hidden messages at all. At all.

I meant no personal attacks...no insults...no ridicule towards anyone. I mean that. 

If any one of you are taking this thread as my intent to mock anything, I am really sorry. Not my intention at all.

Why the anger? Why attack the messenger? Why would it make any difference who's behind the curtain? But to address the concern abut my curtain's name...if I would have chosen the Apis maximus...instead of apis maximus, then yes, Talon would be absolutely correct. I am not being evasive at all. I do not mince words.

Shouldn't we talk about the message and the content contained in the message?

You are all welcome to voice your opinions, and I will do so in kind. I will not engage in any sort of fight.

Thanks


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

I don't think anyone's angry...just frustrated. You are being nebulous in your posts by not narrowing where you want to go with the thread. Some sarcasm I can appreciate.  Instead of *asking* about topics to a group of folks that may not know the answers, which I assume is the reason you would started the thread in the first place, why not *state* what you know in an organized fashion and we all discuss them with one another. Talking about the topic is what everyone has been wanting to do since post 1. You had our interests peaked around 80 posts ago, and now folks are getting bored. 
Like I said, no anger, at least on my part. It's a very interesting topic in my opinion and I'm glad the questions you are asking are being asked. More actual discussion would be beneficial.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

I will attempt to make a small summary for what we have talked so far. Please ignore the breaks and the unaccounted for interruptions.

Probiotics-Prebiotics-Microrganisms( Bacteria, Yeasts and Fungi)-The Bee-The Hive-The Environment.

We are on this axis. We are discussing the potential application of a Man Made diet for the bees. 
Exactly what the study Dr. Anderson has set in motion and is looking at. In very minute details. It will take a long time. 2019.

We have defined most of the terms.

Deknow's first, and only intervention on this thread, made clear that, from the moment the bee starts packaging the pollen grains, at the flower, a whole chain of events is started. 
By the time the pollen grains are moistened by the bee with nectar and honey stomach contents, then packed by the bee into the pollen baskets, a whole cascade of microbial reactions and relationships are started and set in motion.

A microbial/possible fungal population, and products of their interactions is already present and in existence at the flower. Same thing inside and outside the body of the bee. Same thing at the hive level...inside the hive, and the existing reserves. 
A continuous relationship of commensalism is in play. At every level. By very specific microbes.

Folks tweaking different feed substrates, that could supplement or totally replace the diet of the bees, are looking at specific players that could be more or less employed or harnessed into making a predictable, repeatable and ultimately "beneficial" result. 

By whatever measuring stick the consensus will be.

The implied BENEFIT, was arbitrarily assigned to a group of microorganisms that as time passes, technology gets better and the understanding of the players on the AXIS are better understood, the hope is that something of benefit...mainly for the beekeeper will come out.

Trials are in motion. Folks on this very forum are trying different formulas with various results. Some more convincing than others. 
Randy Oliver, will be doing some trials with specific PROBIOTICS, used in dogs. 
Folks are looking for answers, more than ever.

We, simply are trying to learn about the issues involved.

Thanks and good night.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good post am, many thanks for doing the homework i don't have time to do myself. i'm looking forward to more meat and potatoes as the information becomes available.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

>> some more convincing than others.

Now we're talking. :thumbsup:

Do you have any factual evidence or speculation why this may be the case? I understand that this is a very broad question, but ya gotta start somewhere. We know that we need the 10 amino acids, fatty acids, cholesterol, vitamins, minerals, electrolytes (specific ingredients at that). We know that the proper nutrients need to be available to the bees at certain times of the year, in a form that makes them available to the bees with the aid of many different substances and life forms, and in an efficient manner. 
What is your take on all this? You obviously have one, otherwise you wouldn't have started the discussion. As they say, "show me the money". 
Obviously, we won't know much until the study is completed, and even then we may end up with more questions than answers.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> i think i would rather you just get to the point.


I wasn't going to say it when he came out with the words matter... Thanks SP.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

TalonRedding said:


> >> some more convincing than others.
> Do you have any factual evidence or speculation why this may be the case? I understand that this is a very broad question, but ya gotta start somewhere.


Talon,

Factual evidence on why different sub/sup/formulations work for some of the folks trying them on their own? No I don't. 
Speculation...maybe more of an educated guess. Randy's trials, on specifically designed formulas, either by him or folks like Hackenberg are out there for all to see and try. 

Keith is the only one I am aware of, that has a formula he makes and sells, but for good reasons I am sure, he's not gonna disclose his formula. 
Apparently, a lot of folks that either know Keith or are satisfied customers oh his, are saying so clearly. Keith has skin in the game, knows his stuff and that's all I am gonna say about that. 
Now, right on this thread, Mr. Jim Lyon #79, alluding to Keith's efforts said:



jim lyon said:


> Since Keith is only in the early planning stages of his Texas plant. I done bought me a few ton of them thar probiotics plus patties. What can I say. Put em on one day, pulled brood out of them the next. Probiotics rock!


I do not know any of you folks...I can only go by your words. But when someone says, "*Put em on one day, pulled brood out of them the next. Probiotics rock! *", what can you say? I have no axe to grind, nothing to debunk or attack. 
The only reason I started this thread, as a parallel of course, because of a few *potentially* good similar threads, I felt were getting stuck. I understand...frustration might be an understatement, and so, the only way one can try to keep some sort of control of a thread, is to start one.

Lauri, is the one that started a fantastic thread on her own version of protein supplementation, that has stirred up a lot of good questions and answers...but, like anything good, we lose focus and start fighting. She came out, right from the gate, posted all her ingredients, and showed how things work in her operation. Nothing hidden...wide open.

I have tried some formulations/ingredients which I mentioned in various threads...but I can only say what I have seen in my hives. Of course, no empiricism involved, just anecdotal. I do not plan to start a sub selling biz.

I have a lot of questions...I already said that. I am hoping, together, we'll get to find some educated answers that would maybe clarify some very complex stuff.
When Ian came right out of the gate and said I just lost my audience, I said thank you, I am an audience of one and anything above that would be a welcomed bonus. That has not changed. 
Because really, me, trying to clarify some things in my head, in order to have a conversation with others, benefits me, more than you guys. There is a TON of stuff *I was not aware of*, before starting this thread.

We'll see.


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Thanks for the synopsis.
With regard to pre or pro biotics, could it be that the nature of pollen casings need different action on them to make the nutrients fully available to the bee than proteins supplied from other sources? Obviously the bee will have evolved with the necessary equipment to deal with naturally foraged pollen, not necessarily so with the suppliments.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Apparently, a lot of folks that either know Keith or are satisfied customers oh his, are saying so clearly. Keith has skin in the game, knows his stuff and that's all I am gonna say about that. 
Now, right on this thread, Mr. Jim Lyon #79, alluding to Keith's efforts said:



My post, of course, was tongue in cheek. Frankly I don't know the answer to any of these questions. We run a lot of bees and have been putting on quite a bit of "sub" lately. Our bees do look pretty good and the bees do love the ML patties. Keith suggested I run a side by side a few years ago using a number of the leading products and give the results here on Beesource. I declined because I felt it would take more time and expertise to run a proper study than what I was willing and able to give. I have a lot of respect for Keith and his product but I'm never organized enough to book far enough ahead and to arrange an LTL delivery almost 2,000 miles away so I take what is readily available. Didn't even know they contained probiotics until we unloaded them. So what you get from me is my seat of the pants analysis. You know the kind of field report that goes like this...."my bees used to look really bad but then I put on product X and now they look really good". None of these products are miracle cures, they are supplements and none of them are going to "make a silk purse out of a sows ear". I do think, however, that they have become a necessity for those whose bees aren't in good forage areas and supplementation may well make the difference between having bees that make grade this time of year or having an outfit full of "dinks". 
So carry on folks, I am reading with interest the discussion from all those with more smarts but fewer bees than I have. I might just learn something. 
Just for the record, I wasn't offended by this thread but I was a bit puzzled trying to discern just what the heck you were talking about.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

>>There is a ton of stuff I was not aware of, before starting this thread.

Please, do tell!


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

If the bees inoculate the pollen with microbes while storing the pollen in their baskets which sets the ball rolling, it would appear to me that feeding a pollen substitute in a powder form would be of greater value than a sugar rich patty. The pollen powder is then surely with "probiotics" of the type found in bees, any other type added to patties is an unknown as we are not sure that they are required by the bees gut. I have wondered if patties placed in the hive are totally consumed by the bees or if the sugar is just sucked out and the rest discarded. The bees still see some benefit of supplemental feeding by the sugar consumption, who can tell?
Johno


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I think Keith is right on the money in regards to his micro flora builder agents in his supplement. It sounds like he has something going that works. When customers sell a product, you know something is good about that product and that business. Good sales involve customers not just buying a product but also buying into a program. From here it looks like a good deal.


Now in regards to the added probiotics bacteria to the supplement I continue to have questions about. Some are adding specific types of bacteria to the patties. I'm hearing the bacteria is not viable in the patty after a few days...
So then it's suggested that perhaps the bacteria is added maybe to condition the patty itself. Makes sense but does it? Or was it intended to condition the bees stomach gut? And if so... It's not getting there right?

Nobody really seams to know and no data has been available by anyone to show efficacy. Beekeepers are still using it, how do they know it's working? Good beekeepers know how to read performance in their hives and when something works they stick to it. So then that should be easy enough to run trials on right? especially in house trials

as pointed out to me in another discussion; 
#1, do the added probiotics have anything to contribute to a honeybee, and if so what?
#2, are they getting to where they can do some benefit ALIVE
#3 what is the effect of all the supporting prebiotic agents included 
#4 are all the positive results seen from including these supplements a factor of the probiotics or the supporting prebiotic agents, or both. And how exactly. 

Sounds like a study worth the ear of the beekeeping industry


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> So carry on folks, I am reading with interest the discussion from all those with more smarts but fewer bees than I have. I might just learn something.


I am sure I don't have more smarts but I have fewer bees...

Let's play the word game. Supplements are supplements. We take supplements because we lack something in our diet. In most cases it is not because it isn't available it is just that we would rather eat a factory pizza then fresh kale. Fact of life. Our body will only use what it needs and waste the rest. You have to be careful not to rely on just supplements because that will surely result is something else you need. The more you need the supplement the more the body will absorb it assuming there isn't another important ingredient or chemical lack there of or vice verse.

I think bees are exactly the same. If you see remarkable results from a supplement it is likely your bees needed it. The cause could be where your apiary is located or what you are doing to your bees. If your colonies were in an area of good and plenty it is unlikely your bees would ever need a supplement. It is very likely that migratory beekeepers would benefit from supplements because they are forcing their bees on mono-culture. The problem might be what supplement when. Very unlikely that what is needed would not change through out the season.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Acebird said:


> I am sure I don't have more smarts but I have fewer bees...
> 
> Let's play the word game. Supplements are supplements. We take supplements because we lack something in our diet. In most cases it is not because it isn't available it is just that we would rather eat a factory pizza then fresh kale. Fact of life. Our body will only use what it needs and waste the rest. You have to be careful not to rely on just supplements because that will surely result is something else you need. The more you need the supplement the more the body will absorb it assuming there isn't another important ingredient or chemical lack there of or vice verse.
> 
> I think bees are exactly the same. If you see remarkable results from a supplement it is likely your bees needed it. The cause could be where your apiary is located or what you are doing to your bees. If your colonies were in an area of good and plenty it is unlikely your bees would ever need a supplement. It is very likely that migratory beekeepers would benefit from supplements because they are forcing their bees on mono-culture. The problem might be what supplement when. Very unlikely that what is needed would not change through out the season.


perfect answer to this thread.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sorry dup.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I am just a newbie and don't know much about anything, but . . .

If the gut-microflora is transferred to the pollen via the bee's mouth as she is packing the pollen into her pollen basket (something which took me 80 posts to learn), why isn't the same process true when she is collecting pollen sub and/or syrup? I.e., bees are constantly cleaning their mouth parts with their forelegs, consequently, anything handled by the bees' forelegs will pickup gut microflora. In other words, it seems the bees' food is going to get inoculated by the bees' gut microflora regardless of whether it is transported by bees from a flower or from a patty on top of the hive? As such, why put probiotics into pollen sub when real pollen doesn't start with any of these gut-microflora probiotics? Seems like marketing smoke and mirrors, to me.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Let's play the word game. Supplements are supplements.


Yeah lets do. You are correct. Supplements are supplements. But, in this thread we are pushing the limit to also the word SUBSTITUTES. As in, a complete substitution of a specific diet. Yes, we can say: I am *sub*stituting, but only a bit or sometimes. That means, you are *sup*plementing. Not substituting. But now, if a SUBSTITUTE would be, could be available, do you guys think it would be an item of interest? 
Clearly not to the small sideliners or small hobbyists...that still have access to some normal, not man made forage?
But to the industrial way of keeping bees? 
All these 3 last questions...rhetorical in my view. 

These two terms get throw around everywhere...forums...bee keepers association meetings....bee conferences. And then...we fight. Not because we are bad people....but because we get in a rush and do not understand the words we use.

But, right on target with saying: 
"*The cause could be where your apiary is located or what you are doing to your bees. If your colonies were in an area of good and plenty it is unlikely your bees would ever need a supplement. It is very likely that migratory beekeepers would benefit from supplements because they are forcing their bees on mono-culture. The problem might be what supplement when. Very unlikely that what is needed would not change through out the season*."


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I sure dont know much about probiotics but had an experience several weeks ago that draws attention the weird things involved with them. I had an abscessed tooth and a root canal done on it. The dental surgeon put me on a course of antibiotics and I noticed very soon that my intestinal gaseous discharges no longer smelled bad! Like Forrest Gump was wont to say "that is all I know about that".

I am hanging in and not jumping to conclusions about this thread. I know the frustration of trying to find a solution to a problem when the people involved do not have an absolutely agreed upon common terminology, terms of reference and definition of what is being studied. Getting these things out of the way initially may head off a lot of subsequent posturing and ploys. 

Just watching.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

While we all know the commercials have the bees, I do not know who is claiming to be smart. Just google probiotic and see what Wikipedia for info, it will tell you what it is and also tell you that proof of any advantage to humans is not proved. Thus I remain a little skeptical unless there is scientific proof of the benefits of probiotics to bees. Also remember that diversity of diet is important, too little of something is not good too much can also be harmful a little arsenic has medicinal value too much and we know where that takes us. As far as the smarts go, I do not claim to have the answers just the questions.
Johno


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes indeed. Skepticism is crucial. Good point to start. With anything. 

But, to end the waiting suspense on, or for the "scientific proof"...There will be no proof of anything. Just degrees of different things that got *un*covered. Some things we had no clue existed...some things we were *absolutely sure* did not, cannot exist...then, we had to *re*evaluate. And then, we find something that literally spits in our collective Knowledge pot, and we end up calling these new findings NOVEL. That word, simply means NEW. 

New for whom? Oh, I guess for all of us. Not really new, but yes, new to us.

And all this time, digging and designing extremely sophisticated empirical experiments...all along saying, well, all that anecdotal stuff, is good and all that, is just not "scientific" enough.

So, in the meantime as we wait, we'll still try to make more sense...despite the very scenic detours we take...so often. 

But yes, very good points.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

The PROBIOTICS market is somewhere north of 16 Billion U$D. And growing...The bulk of it, is targeted for sale to we, the people. Feed for the animals, pets included...around 10% of that. But...the "good news" is, it is growing...exponentially. 
So, some very, very astute folks, are making some nice coin on this. 

Yes, the early bird gets the worm...and the last mouse gets the cheese. All that said, there is still so much abbundancy for everybody joining this trend, from worms to cheeses...that really, this is a very big pie, so, no reason getting into the "doom and gloom" scarcity approach. Well, not yet. 

There is a LOT of folks out there that need feeding...that is the contextual narrative. And pets too...Not my narrative. OK?

Data gathering in this day and age...is not even close to what it was...shoo, 10 years ago. It is not a better, improved script. No, not at all...it is a whole NEW script. NOVEL. GAME CHANGER. 
Except...that, this data gathering and processing power was not there before...this is not an *un*covering...not a *dis*covery either. 

Now, without trying to get pompous on y'all...The January 2015, cover of the Foreign Affairs has this on it: *HERE COMES THE DISRUPTERS!* Exactly in this format. 

Very smart folks, looking at markets and learning about stuff...are calling this, sometimes..."an unfair advantage"

Last, but not least, I will leave you with someone else's thought:

"*I have a theory about people who succeed: they cheat. And I’m in favor of it.
I saw you recoil from that word a little, so I’ll say it more delicately: they’re quick to embrace an unfair advantage.
Exceptional marketing gives a business an unfair advantage. Businesspeople who embrace this advantage are usually the ones who succeed.
Here’s why I call it “an unfair advantage”: marketing doesn’t improve the product or the service you provide but it can make a customer choose you anyway, even when your competitor is offering a better value.*" Roy H. Williams, The Wizard of Ads®

So, lets all be nice and fair. OK? Lets learn something. OK?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> I sure dont know much about probiotics but had an experience several weeks ago that draws attention the weird things involved with them. I had an abscessed tooth and a root canal done on it. The dental surgeon put me on a course of antibiotics and I noticed very soon that my intestinal gaseous discharges no longer smelled bad! Like Forrest Gump was wont to say "that is all I know about that".


Absolute perfect example of side effects. The doctor, rightfully so, gave you a dose of antibiotics because of the infection that could have been life threatening. That dose killed all the good bacterial in your digestive system and it took you about 2 weeks after to recover from it. During that time you were also at risk because you were malnourished no matter what you ate. Great that you survived.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Absolute perfect example of side effects. The doctor, rightfully so, gave you a dose of antibiotics because of the infection that could have been life threatening. *That dose killed all the good bacterial in your digestive system *and it took you about 2 weeks after to recover from it. During that time you were also at risk because you were malnourished no matter what you ate. Great that you survived.


Ace,

Not to pick on you. At all. 

But, please, revise the underlined statement in your quote above. I apologize for the the emphasis...but it is key to what we are talking about. On this thread at least.

In the context described by *crofter*...he had a tooth problem: "*I had an abscessed tooth and a root canal done on it. The dental surgeon put me on a course of antibiotics..."*

Yes, you are correct...side effect indeed. At his gut level...
But who is the group of .... "*all the good bacterial in your digestive system*" ???

Remember a few posts back, we talked about *commensalism*? Everyone at the table...eating, sharing, producing stuff without good or bad? Opposite of each other...yet not opposing anything?

If we do not understand this point, we'll run in circles.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

mbc said:


> With regard to pre or pro biotics, could it be that the nature of pollen casings need different action on them to make the nutrients fully available to the bee than proteins supplied from other sources? Obviously the bee will have evolved with the necessary equipment to deal with naturally foraged pollen, not necessarily so with the suppliments.


Thank you *mbc*... I appreciate your patience.
This thought of yours, will become a key anchor on what, hopefully, we'll get to talk more of.

I hear you. And heard you all along...even before Mr. Barry has edited your post. 

We are just guests on a platform he so graciously provides. I mean that. And I thank him for that. In the open.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

johno said:


> If the bees inoculate the pollen with microbes while storing the pollen in their baskets which sets the ball rolling, it would appear to me that feeding a pollen substitute in a powder form would be of greater value than a sugar rich patty.


Now we are getting some really interesting questions. Thanks.
It would appear...yes....but to *mbc*'s point, we are talking about pollen *grains*, gathered by the bee from the plants. Think of what pollen grains are...and why they need "cracking". With that in mind, we are making the stretch that a *powder substitute*( correctly called and used by you in your statement), of our own making will have to get something similar done by the bee. Yes?



johno said:


> The pollen powder is then surely with "probiotics" of the type found in bees, any other type added to patties is an unknown as we are not sure that they are required by the bees gut.


Our "fake" pollen powder?...yes? If yes, then how would bee specific *enzymes*, and *microbes* help that out on a "foreign" substrate?



johno said:


> I have wondered if patties placed in the hive are totally consumed by the bees or if the sugar is just sucked out and the rest discarded. The bees still see some benefit of supplemental feeding by the sugar consumption, who can tell?
> Johno


Hard to tell indeed...for all of us. I don't think all of it gets discarded...I see the hive grabbing a gear and making more brood...if carbohydrates are also present... if open brood is present...and not enough foragers are present...or no real pollen is available.
Its a long, wide spectrum...but I think this is where the magic happens.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

apis maximus said:


> Hard to tell indeed...for all of us. I don't think all of it gets discarded...I see the hive grabbing a gear and making more brood...if carbohydrates are also present... if open brood is present...and not enough foragers are present...or no real pollen is available.
> Its a long, wide spectrum...but I think this is where the magic happens.


I see too strong a response to patties not to believe they are consuming it. Also, I see nothing being carried out of the hives when I feed it. They either ignore it or use it, mostly depending on what's available in the area. Hives in one area will eat it like gangbusters, same time in another area they ignore it.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>Our "fake" pollen powder?...yes? If yes, then how would bee specific enzymes, and microbes help that out on a "foreign" substrate?

Even with the "fake" pollen powder" the probiotics grow in the patty turning it to bee bread, changing sugars to yeasts, aminos, lipids... Extending the shelf life of the proteins. Making more nutrition and digestible.
In this study livestock probiotics added to home made pollen sub is better than controls:
http://www.jas.org.pl/Improvement-o...mentation-of-probiotic-preparations,0,76.html

>I have wondered if patties placed in the hive are totally consumed by the bees or if the sugar is just sucked out and the rest discarded."
In Randy Oliver’s pollen sub study he showed that some pollen subs were not full consumed while most others were. The results show bees that consuming the patties increasing in size over the syrup controls.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/a-comparative-test-of-the-pollen-sub/


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

FlowerPlanter said:


> the probiotics grow in the patty turning it to bee bread, changing sugars to yeasts, aminos, lipids... Extending the shelf life of the proteins. Making more nutrition and digestible.
> In this study livestock probiotics added to home made pollen sub is better than controls:
> http://www.jas.org.pl/Improvement-o...mentation-of-probiotic-preparations,0,76.html


" 2 probiotic preparations were applied, that were added to the substitute in *three doses immediately before administration to bees*"

Does it mention why it was added immediately before administration?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

apis maximus said:


> I hear you. And heard you all along...even before Mr. Barry has edited your post.


I couldn't stand the smell.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Wow....lots been goin on since this morning. 
Great conversation and I've mulled over lot of it, particularly the "why add probiotics to supplement when the micro flora are already in the bees gut?". Then...it hit me. This example may get me laughed off the board, but i think the workings of it are in line with what we are talking about. So here goes. 
My wife keeps a sourdough starter in our fridge and bakes bread with it on a regular basis. She keeps it in the fridge so that the yeasts don't overreact and starve themselves (ever wonder why the directions on some subs say to keep below x temperature?). She feeds, yes literally feeds, her starter some form of sugar usually sucrose or honey because if she didn't, the starter would literally die. The starter is a living thing...literally. If yeasts/probiotics are in pollen supplement, then it to is a living thing and needs to remain fed and somewhat inactive until it's placed on the hive. The difference between bread and supplement is that bread is placed in an oven where the yeasts are then killed (the yeasts are only making the bread rise). The supplement however is not placed in an oven where the yeasts are killed, rather it is given to the bees with the yeasts remaining alive.This is the take home point; the yeasts in the substitute do not die, rather they *culture* the bacteria already present in the bees' gut. My wife adds dry yeasts to her dough along with the starter so that it speeds the levening process, otherwise she would have to wait the whole day for the bread to rise if she only used the starter (Ian, this might answer your question about adding a dose of probiotics just before applying the sub to the bees). 
Think of the culturing of the bee gut when probiotics are added to the diet. Now think of those little tiny fibrous extensions on plant roots called micorrhizae (I know bees aren't plants, but bear with me). The micorrhizae are essentially very small extensions that grow from the roots, and sometimes there are tens of thousands of them. Their purpose is to bring additional nutrient absorption to the "table" for the plant. This makes for a much more efficient system for nutrient absorption. *The culturing of the bee gut has the same effect on nutrient absorption for the bee as the micorrhizae filaments of a plant's root system does to the plant.* 
Like I said, this might be a horrible example and its a stab in the dark, but I don't see why it couldn't apply to the bees' diet as well as ours. The yeast in the bread does us humans no good because they are killed in the oven, but not so with the bees. The yeasts go on to actually benefit the bees' system. 
Let the criticism begin...


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Talon, as I understand it, the food your wife gives the sourdough starter is a prebiotic and the dry yeast she adds is the probiotics. 
I'm guessing with bee dietary supplements we get more bang for our buck with "pre" and our efforts would be best directed at fine tuning how best to encourage the beneficial micro flora already in the colony.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

A small point perhaps, Talon, but I suspect that what is actually being fed to that sourdough starter is likely _flour _and water, not sugar. 



> When wheat flour comes into contact with water, naturally occurring amylase enzymes break down the starch into maltose; [HIGHLIGHT]the enzyme maltase converts the maltose sugar into glucose, which yeast can metabolize.[/HIGHLIGHT]
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sourdough


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Barry said:


> I couldn't stand the smell.


Apologies, it stank ( as in, it was a poor attempt at humour).
But why do farts smell?








So that the deaf can appreciate them too! (I'll get my coat,,,,)


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> A small point perhaps, Talon, but I suspect that what is actually being fed to that sourdough starter is likely _flour _and water, not sugar.


It's actually both that she feeds it. Some folks add potato flakes instead of flour.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Even with the "fake" pollen powder" the probiotics grow in the patty turning it to bee bread, changing sugars to yeasts, aminos, lipids... Extending the shelf life of the proteins. Making more nutrition and digestible.
> 
> ...from/by.....*johno*"I have wondered if patties placed in the hive are totally consumed by the bees or if the sugar is just sucked out and the rest discarded."
> In Randy Oliver’s pollen sub study he showed that some pollen subs were not full consumed while most others were. The results show bees that consuming the patties increasing in size over the syrup controls.


Lets regroup a bit...again. We are getting on a slippery slope.

Pollen from the plants, having the pollen... 
Pollen, is the *male seed* of a flower blossom, collected by honey bees and combined with the bees’ *enzymes*, coming from the bee, by regurgitation, and more than likely other *microorganisms*.( some bee *specific*...some *non-bee specific*...some plant specific, but in the neighborhood...*commensals*) 

All that, takes place as the bee, all fluffed up and full of pollen grains all over her little "hairy" body, starts combing and brushing herself, and in the process, she moves all these tiny, tiny pollen grains(AKA Pollen *spores*), in a deliberate way, also adding nectar to these very dry, stubborn to stick to each other, small pollen grains, which eventually, end up moistened, all neatly pressed into the pollen baskets. 

Them pollen pellets, on the bees pollen baskets, are a mixture of sticky pollen granules, that can contain up to five million pollen *spores* each. Now wait a minute...every body is making *spores* now? Bacteria are making *spores*...Fungi are making *spores*, flowers are sending their male seeds out in *spores*...what's up with that? are all these spores important? We'll get to that too.

By now, a whole cascade of chemical and physical reactions are on the roll. Some *succesive*, biological waves are started.Right at the flower...with the bee or by the bee...
This is the "*succession*", Dr. Anderson talks about, in the objectives he has in mind for that USDA/ARS project although, by the time he'll look at the bee bread, the succession has already started)

"_We will determine *the microbial succession* in beebread to understand the distribution of these beebread-associated microbial communities and whether these communities contribute to the nutritive value of pollen, its digestion and storage, and the potential for disease transmission and amplification_."


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

mbc said:


> Talon, as I understand it, the food your wife gives the sourdough starter is a prebiotic and the dry yeast she adds is the probiotics.
> I'm guessing with bee dietary supplements we get more bang for our buck with "pre" and our efforts would be best directed at fine tuning how best to encourage the beneficial micro flora already in the colony.


Mbc, that may very well be.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

apis maximus said:


> If we do not understand this point, we'll run in circles.


You are running in circles. If you do not understand what I wrote then do some research on you own. Your babbling of words that matter have confused not only me but others.
Yes, I understand it is your thread. Meaningless as it may be.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

mbc said:


> But why do farts smell?


About 1% sulfur. It could come from the water you drink.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

crofter said:


> I sure dont know much about probiotics but had an experience several weeks ago that draws attention the weird things involved with them. I had an abscessed tooth and a root canal done on it. The dental surgeon put me on a course of antibiotics and I noticed very soon that my intestinal gaseous discharges no longer smelled bad! Like Forrest Gump was wont to say "that is all I know about that".
> 
> I am hanging in and not jumping to conclusions about this thread. I know the frustration of trying to find a solution to a problem when the people involved do not have an absolutely agreed upon common terminology, terms of reference and definition of what is being studied. Getting these things out of the way initially may head off a lot of subsequent posturing and ploys.
> 
> Just watching.


Many years ago I was put on antibiotics. After a couple of days, I felt an inside heaviness in my gut, I believe due to the wipeout of the good organisms that help with digestion, and the predation of the "bad" organisms, etc. My gut (pun intended) feeling is that our bees might have the same negative reaction as I did to the administration of antibiotics.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> A small point perhaps, Talon, but I suspect that what is actually being fed to that sourdough starter is likely _flour _and water, not sugar.


Graham, thanks for the intervention.

Everything you quote, is right. Indeed, starch is a carbohydrate. It is nothing but a long chain, consisting of a large number of *Glucose* molecules joined by (glycosidic) bonds. From the GLUCOSE units, bonded together, in a chain, in the starch...depending which enzyme breaks those bonds...different other "sugars" are the end result. 

Starch is processed to produce many of *the sugars* in processed foods. So, when generally speaking of SUGARS, notice that it is a generic term, used as a category only.

*GLUCOSE *is a *mono*saharide( meaning one molecule-one sugar molecule) .
*MALTOSE* is a *di*sacharide ( meaning two molecules- of two sugars bonded together- in the maltose case, two *GLUCOSE *molecules bonded together.)

Specific *enzymes*, will cut these bonds in very specific places...resulting in very different products. Yes, generically these end products can be called SUGARS (carbohydrates really)...but say Maltose, Lactose, Galactose, Fructose...get the idea...they are all sugars, chemically speaking, yet each one, when "eaten" will start a very *specific*, very *distinct* metabolic process.

An example, that speaks to this. *Fructose*, is a sugar. *Glucose* is a sugar. Each one is a *mono*sacharide. When ingested by a human, *Glucose* can be used by any cell, anywhere in the body. Yes, the liver and the muscle will store Glucose as Glycogen (long chains of Glucose molecules, bonded). Fructose, on the other hand, has to go first to the LIVER, where other things happen to it. Fructose as a sugar, cannot be metabolized in the human body, except in the LIVER, and in males, in very small amounts at the level of the epididymis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epididymis

Bread making, and the dough forming process is a wonderful parallel, one can get into and see very similar *words* and processes taking place. Notice the description of the players...*yeasts*, *bacteria* and some of their products...*enzymes*. Also, notice some are *naturally occurring*...some are *cultivated*.

Sourdough ( sour because of the Lactic acid present) has specific enzymes, breaking the starch. 

*Amylase*(_enzyme_) breaks starch into MALTOSE...

*Maltase*(_enzyme_) converts the maltose sugar, into glucose. Different enzymes---->different end products.

Very relevant and critical to what we are talking about. A quote from Graham's link:

"Sourdough is a bread product made by a *long fermentation* of dough using *naturally occurring lactobacilli and yeasts*. In comparison with breads made with *cultivated yeast*, it usually has a mildly sour taste because of the *lactic acid* produced by the *lacto*bacilli.....
Flour *naturally* contains a variety of *yeasts and bacterial spores*. With sufficient time, temperature, and refreshments with new or fresh dough, the mixture develops a *balanced, symbiotic or stable culture*"

Very important stuff. Lots of critical parallels...but we need to get to some *intersecting* points. They might, or might not end up being relevant. For The MIGHTY BEE that is.

Maybe by now you start seeing how all these *words*...begin to paint a picture.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Phillip; Some species have a very dependent digestive system. Thinking cows and horses as I have some experience there. They can get into digestive distress quickly if something knocks out their digestive balance. Thinking bloat and founder and digging holes! 

Lots of experiments ongoing to manipulate the last percentage point of meat and milk gain per unit of feed on hogs and poultry etc.: Some tricky spinoffs from that like new disease suited to the altered manure. Somebody is seeing an advantage. Waiting to see what similar ramifications occur when the technology is applied to bees. Have lots of time.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

So, starch is long chains of GLUCOSE molecules bonded together. Have you ever tasted Starch? 
It is by no means sweet. Yet, it is a bunch of Glucose molecules. Glucose(aka dextrose) is sweet. Not as sweet as Fructose...but sweet. Starch, not. And it is only so, because some very specific *enzymes*...are breaking some very, very *specific* bonds. Very minute, boring detail...perhaps. But very critical.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

TalonRedding said:


> The starter is a living thing...literally. If yeasts/probiotics are in pollen supplement, then it to is a living thing and needs to remain fed and somewhat inactive until it's placed on the hive. The difference between bread and supplement is that bread is placed in an oven where the yeasts are then killed (the yeasts are only making the bread rise). The supplement however is not placed in an oven where the yeasts are killed, rather it is given to the bees with the yeasts remaining alive.


Spot on.



TalonRedding said:


> This is the take home point; the yeasts in the substitute do not die, rather they *culture* the bacteria already present *in the bees' gut*.


Now here is a very, very delicate bridge...some of us, are trying to cross. First part of the statement. Yes indeed. Second one in red...NOT SO. NOT YET...not we what we know as of now.

For the record...with what I understand so far...I am on the same boat with *deknow* on this one.
If you all remember the Super DFM thread...*deknow's* post #171...He said, and for good reason indeed.



deknow said:


> I think here is where the shark jump occurs (good luck Fonzi).
> The "digestive bugs" are highly specialized, and are not simply replaced (or are replaceable) with standard strains that are used for human food production in feed. The routes of inoculation of newly emerged bees (which emerge sterile) is the result of some very specific behaviors and doesn't simply happen or change because you've spiked the food.


Meaning, at this point the credibility of the whole thing is lost...*deknow* likes metaphors...a lot. At that time, I just was not sure who played the role of Fonzi in that thread. Could have been all of us at that point...and if that is the case, I think, we sure deserved it.


Yes Ian, to some extent what Talon says below...it is true. Also, you might get to see later on, why the microbes you were thinking about adding, do not die...


TalonRedding said:


> (Ian, this might answer your question about adding a dose of probiotics just before applying the sub to the bees).


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Two very critical and important things that *deknow* is trying, very hard, to bring to the discussion. And yet, we still fail to grasp the context and the concepts presented. 

These two concepts are, and I'll just quote Dean:

*1. The "digestive bugs" are highly specialized, and are not simply replaced (or are replaceable) with standard strains that are used for human food production in feed. The routes of inoculation of newly emerged bees (which emerge sterile) is the result of some very specific behaviors and doesn't simply happen or change because you've spiked the food....Because they are (different). The gut bacterial culture is somewhat of a closed system....some of the bacteria in the Illium can hardly be distinguished from those of the bees gut and are not culturable."*

*2. More to the point, I don't get the impression that these inoculants contain the strains that are specific and novel to the bee.*


*I* am still learning and *I* have way more questions than answers. And the more *I* dig for answers, the deeper the rabbit hole goes...muddy waters is an understatement. But, _*I*_ will keep at it...

*But still, a lot of this stuff is very well explained by folks that have done a lot of work in this area.* Very, very hard...tedious work.

As I gather some more steam...this is what I'll be focusing on. That does not mean you guys cannot jump in at any time...its an open forum after all. Just keep in mind...do not try to pick a fight with me...*I *am not interested in fighting.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Good morning again dear fellow bee lovers!

_This_...apis maximus , had a very good night yet full of thought provoking dreams...funny how that happens...sometimes.
As I was remembering, way back in 2011...yeah, seems like yesterday...when I first came to this virtual platform, and deciding how and what to call my virtual persona, I finally picked what you currently see as my "curtain" or "cover". At that time...my Latin was very, very rusty...full of dust. Gone, but not completely forgotten. So, in my rush ( so not turtle like) I picked what today still stands. As my screen name. 

The intent was to emphasize the BEE world...in a very passionate way. Because it is. So, that *word*, bee/apis, needed a qualifier. In my mind at that time, _going to the max on it_, immediately drew upon the qualifier, maximus. That was the intent. Still is.
Bad on my part for not doing my homework when using foreign terms.

However, by not using Caps on either of the two words, I thought, at that time, that it will not seem pretentious, pompous, grand, imposing, know it all or anything like that. Simply because, two terms/words, used in Latin...in the way I chose to do it, mean nothing. Simply because they are not used correctly. 
Although today, looking back, I see clearly how that move was not the best choice. Perceptions, generated by poor, unclear context lead to trouble. For that mishap, oversight on my part really...I apologize.

Just wanted to get that off my chest. Thanks.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

It's ok apis. :gh: 
Sometimes I wish i had used different screen name than my real name.:doh:
Now, if I ever run for president, some beekeeper that I rubbed the wrong way will be able to pull my comments from beesource 20 years from now and show the country that I'm heartless, crude, and ignorant and that I am not fit to be president (I'm actually being facetious....I do not plan on getting into politics). :lookout::digging::doh:


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

philip.devos said:


> Many years ago I was put on antibiotics. After a couple of days, I felt an inside heaviness in my gut, I believe due to the wipeout of the good organisms that help with digestion, and the predation of the "bad" organisms, etc. My gut (pun intended) feeling is that our bees might have the same negative reaction as I did to the administration of antibiotics.


Yes I am sure the bee gets a negative reaction from antibiotics along with fungicides, pesticides other ag chemicals that they may get into. Giving them bee probiotics like Symbeeotic may help with that. 



mbc said:


> I'm guessing with bee dietary supplements we get more bang for our buck with "pre" and our efforts would be best directed at fine tuning how best to encourage the beneficial micro flora already in the colony.


What is out there for a prebiotics for bees vitamins and minerals? Pollen sub? The biggest gain might be not to kill probiotics with EOs, antibiotics, pesticides…

>More to the point, I don't get the impression that these inoculants contain the strains that are specific and novel to the bee.
Like yogurt their benefits but will fade after consumption stops. I believe it is the same with the bees as long as they are consuming livestock probiotic there will be benefits. Livestock probiotic won't live a long time in the bee's environment over time they will get filter out.

If one were too take bee probiotics from let’s say isolated feral survivors and culture it, it may be a very good way to give back to the bee what might be lost or damaged from the manmade environment. Might also be a good additive for pollen to make bee bread.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Yes I am sure the bee gets a negative reaction from antibiotics along with fungicides, pesticides other ag chemicals that they may get into. Giving them bee probiotics like Symbeeotic may help with that.


Yes, we are moving again. Hold on to that Symbeeotic thingie...a good point to move towards and learn some more things. Also, to your point, now, we are adding another *specific*, potential set of INSULTS in that long AXIX we talked about=>Environment



FlowerPlanter said:


> If one were too take bee probiotics from let’s say isolated feral survivors and culture it, it may be a very good way to give back to the bee what might be lost or damaged from the manmade environment. Might also be a good additive for pollen to make bee bread.


Another great point to add to some more refining of this conversation. Not *probiotics* per se, but specific bee bugs, from specific bee colonies, found in distinct, environmental areas ( degrees of exposure, not +/-). But then the next question...if you do find them, and you can isolate and identify them...are they "culturable"...and if so( I think they are), then, are they gonna stay ALIVE, and ready to go to work? To what extent? Easily reproducible results? On what measuring stick?


Thanks.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>are they gonna stay ALIVE, and ready to go to work? 
Yes I read somewhere that they can remain in honey for years. 

>Easily reproducible results?
You can make a science out of it in a lab like Symbeeotics did. Or you can just simply culture the LABs in fructose. The microbes do best in fructose such as HFC where they will out compete other less desirable bacteria’s and yeasts. It’s easy to do, add a little honey a little water in some HFC. In Gilliam’s studies she describes the LAB smell like nutty and yeasty.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Here is a link to a similar topic that was discussed before on this very platform we know as Bee Source:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...a+gut+microbes

I only bring it up again, because some interesting points were made and some very good questions were raised. Sure, in the end the waters get muddy, information overload can and does kick in and the attention span withers away.
But still, I think, that in the overall scheme of things, some people do become more aware of things that probably before, never even crossed their minds.

I will stop now and just close with a quote from Michael Bush that he kindly shared on that thread:

"It seems to me that the first step is to not kill off the beneficial bacteria and fungi. The next is to maintain the normal pH of the hive to favor those bacteria and fungi. I'm not convinced that I know enough to innoculate them with microbes and know that I have improved anything. If you feed honey (correct pH etc.) and you don't use essential oils (anti microbial) or organic acids (dramatic shift in pH which kills most all microbes) or antibiotics (Fumidil will kill the fungi and Tylosin and TM will kill the bacteria) then you will get the things that should be living in a bee hive and in the bee gut and in the bee bread. The best way to innoculate a hive that is not doing well is to put a frame of bee bread and a frame of bees from a hive that is doing well. This should innoculate the hive that is not with the correct microbes."


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Good morning again, and good thoughts towards all of you fellow BEE Brothers in Arms

Arms of hunger for knowledge that is...not for fighting amongst ourselves...*commensals*.

I only ended yesterday's trip with Mr. Bush's point, because it is another frame of reference, _*I*_ think is relevant to the discussion at hand. NOT for suggesting a way to do anything...NOT for recommending a certain recipe..NOT to set a foundation on which those who look for a list of good/bad ingredients, can whip up something and get to the bees ASAP to get them to gain another edge.



apis maximus said:


> *But still, a lot of this stuff is very well explained by folks that have done a lot of work in this area.* Very, very hard...tedious work.
> 
> As I gather some more steam...this is what I'll be focusing on. That does not mean you guys cannot jump in at any time...its an open forum after all. Just keep in mind...do not try to pick a fight with me...*I *am not interested in fighting.


So now that I did gather some more steam.... we'll regroup a bit and get back on the scenic route. And for those that drop in for the first time, *I *welcome you. If you engage in the CONVERSATION right away, _*I*_ appreciate it. I do however suggest, that you do read through the whole thread...from the get go, I have mentioned and explained the rules of engagement. But rest assured, _these _rules were not meant to insult anyone nor to restrict anything... 

This last statement should not be interpreted at all as my intent to have other rules on Mr. Barry's forum. His rules are THE RULES.Very clear in my head. Thanks for correcting me on that.

As we take a a coffee break...a dedication to all of you out there...doing the same> Peace
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSDfKkUqRyY


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## Waggle (Mar 7, 2013)

This could be a great thread but it is far tooooooooo verbose with chit-chat, coffee breaks, and verbal filler to keep my interest. I had hoped to learn something, but my feeble mind wanders off far to easily and my time is better spent elsewhere. Peace.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Waggle said:


> This could be a great thread but it is far tooooooooo verbose with chit-chat, coffee breaks, and verbal filler to keep my interest. I had hoped to learn something, but my feeble mind wanders off far to easily and my time is better spent elsewhere. Peace.


Yes sir. Fully understood. Don't sell yourself short with that feeble mind thing. It's not feeble. At all. Peace, right back at you.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

apis maximus said:


> I do however suggest, that you do read through the whole thread...from the get go, I have mentioned and explained the rules of engagement. But rest assured, _these _rules were not meant to insult anyone nor to restrict anything.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but these are the actual rules: 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?226194-Forum-Rules


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Mr. Digman,

Fully understood sir. Yes indeed, it is your house, it is your rules. 
I apologize if my written message you refer to, could or would be interpreted to imply anything else.
I will go back and correct it to reflect that.
Thank you.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

apis maximus said:


> *But still, a lot of this stuff is very well explained by folks that have done a lot of work in this area.* Very, very hard...tedious work.


I would like to bring to your attention four(4) extra set of papers, research if you will, from some very hard working folks, that are considered what folks in their smart circles would call, "Subject Matter Experts". 
Because they are. Masters of their domain so to speak.

These 4 papers are adding to the existing body of knowledge, that Dr. Martha Gilliam has so kindly started. There are many others for sure, but just for the sake of brevity and clarity, trying to mention all of them, would do no justice. 

Plus, many of you by now, have mentioned to me, as a feed back loop of course... that I am beating around the bush too much. 
I hear you and I agree with your assessment. 
I wish I could just post a catchy small video to wrap it all up, and make it easy. That is another project in my mind only...but the more I think about it, the less excited I get about that whole idea.

So these 3 papers are as follows:

1.Symbionts as Major Modulators of Insect Health: Lactic Acid Bacteria and Honeybees 
Alejandra Vasquez, Eva Forsgren, Ingemar Fries, Robert J. Paxton, Emilie Flaberg,Laszlo Szekely, Tobias C. Olofsson.

2. Microbial Ecology of the Hive and Pollination Landscape:Bacterial Associates from Floral Nectar, the AlimentaryTract and Stored Food of Honey Bees (Apis mellifera)
Kirk E. Anderson, Timothy H. Sheehan., Brendon M. Mott, Patrick Maes, Lucy Snyder,Melissa R. Schwan, Alexander Walton, Beryl M. Jones, Vanessa Corby-Harris

3. Long-Term Exposure to Antibiotics Has Caused Accumulation of Resistance Determinants in the Gut Microbiota of Honeybees
Baoyu Tian, Nibal H. Fadhil, J. Elijah Powell, Waldan K. Kwong, and Nancy A. Moran

4. Functional and evolutionary insights into the simple yet specific gut microbiota of the honey bee from metagenomic analysis
Philipp Engel and Nancy A. Moran

All 4 are out there in the open, on the Internet,...open source...out there for anyone of us interested in knowing more. I would recommend to all of you, that still follow my rantings, to take time and read these papers. That is, if you are interested in the topic at hand.

I will not do copy paste just to do copy paste from this fine body of work. I will, to the best of my ability, try to put a coherent, personal interpretation of what I consider the meaning of all this is. In my view and my thinking.
Keep in mind that these authors are very, very smart folks...they run circles around me. I mean that.* I* am one...they, the authors of these 4 papers are more than 20...so yes, I am outnumbered. Big time. 

So please, be patient and understanding with me. Thank you.

I'll be back.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

apis maximus said:


> I apologize if my written message you refer to, could or would be interpreted to imply anything else.


What I'd like for you to do is to refrain from using *bold*, CAPS, . . . . , and lets drop all the cutesy language that feels like I'm back in school. :thumbsup:


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Yes, let me agree strongly with that. It's a thread, not a lecture. It's a community, not a class. The rules existed and were understood well before the first post in the thread and, if not understood, should have been. 

I'm looking forward to sharing more information here.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Now, while some folks take time to look at the above mentioned papers, I would dabble into some potential, right away kind of things that some of you might want to consider before, or as you get ready to spike up the punch bowl and get to your bees trying to push them to perform better.

It appears that by now, a lot of you out there have embraced and adopted the term PROBIOTICS and its implied meaning of GOOD BUGS. Fine, nothing wrong with that. Many of you are already doing it...with results all over the place...from impressive to ...not so much.

I will not try to convince you one way or another. No preaching from me.

As the very first post in this thread(#1) mentions:

"Recent research by Dr Kirk Anderson strongly suggests that there would be little benefit of adding probiotics to patties, other than possibly* L.kunkeii, *and that only if the formula was high in fructose."

Also, Mr. Randy Oliver has decided to start some trials, with or for Dr. Anderson, looking at using Dog PROBIOTICS in trying to see if any benefit can be obtained. I quote the specific Q&A just to make sure I do not mix stuff up:

Q: "Can we expect this same conditioning in bees with introduced probiotic bacteria and prebiotic agents even though these are not Typically found in the bee stomach and gut?

Randy: I've only seen the results of one controlled trial to date, using a dog probiotic. There was no benefit. Dr Kirk Anderson (and likely me) plan to run trials."

So, in this context, if I was to set up something like this...not that I intend to do that...the following posts will dabble into the expectations of that endeavor.
Back shortly. Thanks.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes Mr. Ravenseye. I apologize for my shortcomings. 
You are absolutely right. 
I should have done better in getting the rules right. I will from now on. Promise.
Thanks and I look forward to maybe hearing some questions from you on maybe some particulars, you would like me to talk about. 
On this topic I meant.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Thank you for your agreement apis. No questions. I'll just listen and watch thank you.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

For those using and adding Probiotics...( and here, I will not get into any particular brand and their marketing story). There are many, many brands out there. Most for human use. Some for livestock and pets.

Most, or the majority of these products, have certain, specific strains of different bacteria in a mixture with some inert and or some other active ingredients. All these products, on their label, have these bacteria called out by their name. Also, other ingredients are listed by their chemical name or some generic name.

All the bacteria in these above mentioned Probiotics, are not bee specific by any stretch of imagination. Matter of fact, some are found all over the place. A very heavy used term for that, is: ubiquitous. 

So one can safely say something to the extent : 

" Despite their apparent simplicity, bacteria can form complex associations with other organisms. These symbiotic associations can be divided into parasitism, mutualism and commensalism. Due to their small size, commensal bacteria are *ubiquitous* and grow on animals and plants exactly as they will grow on any other surface. However, their growth can be increased by warmth and sweat, and large populations of these organisms in humans are the cause of body odor." from Wikipedia.

The recent work recommended for your consideration in the 4 papers I mentioned above, deals with specific bee gut microbes.
From Dr. Anderson's paper (2013):

"There are two present paradigms for the interpretation of core gut bacteria in honey bees, one focused on the crop (fore-gut,
honey stomach or social stomach), and the other emphasizing the gut exclusive of the crop. The presently accepted core gut microbiota of the honey bee is composed of 7–12 regularly occurring phylotypes that constitute 99% of the sequences found in the gut of a bee with deep sequencing. Some of these symbionts may be found in the midgut, but most seem to occur primarily in the rectum and/or ileum as a biofilm."

Next I'll look at the human/livestock/pets products and what they can...or what some people think they can or cannot do when offering them to the bees. Either in supplements or substitutes.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Next I'll look at the human/livestock/pets products and what they can...or what some people think they can or cannot do when offering them to the bees. Either in supplements or substitutes. 

And to do this, I will use for framing my thoughts on this subtopic, Ian's questions. 
He posted them in post #100 on this very thread.



Ian said:


> Nobody really seams to know and no data has been available by anyone to show efficacy. Beekeepers are still using it, how do they know it's working? Good beekeepers know how to read performance in their hives and when something works they stick to it. So then that should be easy enough to run trials on right? especially in house trials
> 
> as pointed out to me in another discussion;
> #1, do the added probiotics have anything to contribute to a honeybee, and if so what?
> ...


So with this frame in mind, I will stop and yield the floor...for the night that is

Not to make a big deal out of it, but like I was told, this is not schooling. I agree. Never said it was schooling. Although it might appear to be. In my mind, although dragged to plenty dang schools...schooling, always was schooling. Learning on the other hand, a whole different ball of wax. Learning is an individual thing.

It is indeed a community, and as Virtual as it can be, cold with no direct human interaction, I know that behind each screen name, real or hidden, there is a human being, a beating heart, and a wonderful human being, yearning to make something. To leave something behind. To put your neck out for something.

So please, my appeal to all of you, any of you is to say something. At least sometime. Just like some of you have already did. Even if it is something to the extent of, " hey man, you're boring" or anything for that matter. Even that is useful for guiding posts. Ultimately, I do not have any expectation. life is too short for that kind of things.
I know folks read the postings. It is a community indeed. Looking at the forum stats, it appears that at any given time, there are at least 3 times more guests on the forum than actual active members.

Good luck and good night to all of you. Peace.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

That was my point, Get to your point already...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I have an idea.. Instead of taking my post and micro analyzing the meaning of each word I wrote... How about get straight to the point...


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

> get straight to the point.

I think that's where our issue with this thread is Ian. I suspect that a.maximus really does not know what his end point is because it has yet to be determined by research that is estimated to be completed a few years from now. Also, I am under the impression that this thread is more of a "real time" feed of information as he comes across it, processes it in his mind, and then presents it to us in a new and "filler-filled" post. :kn:

The reason I say this is because I've been there before. lol...as you all know


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

TalonRedding said:


> The reason I say this is because I've been there before. lol...as you all know


Thank you Talon. Exactly what I was looking for to help me refocus some more. Not done just yet. The refocusing I mean. _I_ have been there before. And despite the signals that were there all along, I did not see anything. But what I did see, has, at that time, "helped" me getting on a certain mindset. From that mindset, I was seeing and addressing things. Same road, every day, yet some days, you come across something previously unnoticed, and the whole mindset changes. Sometimes in an instant.

We safely say, I've changed my mind. And move forward. No harm done. Hopefully.

Back into the frame where we left the Probiotics.



Ian said:


> That was my point, Get to your point already...


Thank you Ian. I will. Shortly. It would have been more helpful, for me, if you would have not changed your mind in your last post, leaving only another idea, for me. I mean, deleting the part suggesting me to use my enthusiasm to get some work done. But since it got stuck in my mind, I'll work with what I've got.



Ian said:


> I have an idea.. Instead of taking my post and micro analyzing the meaning of each word I wrote... How about get straight to the point...


Since we have already had some Probiotic product we looked at on the DFM thread, also some dog Probiotics mentioned, human and livestock products also alluded to, we'll work with those. Oh yes, also Lauri brought to the table, in her post #46 on this thread, another product used in livestock which also has in its composition two specific microbes. I have addressed that product in post #48.
You can go either to Lauri's picture of the label in #46, or to the actual legal label of the product to which I provided the link in #48.

Not to be unjust, I'll also address the Prebiotics part, because some of these products come together. Probiotics with the Prebiotics added. The only thing to remember is that the Prebiotic part, could be simply enzyme(s), of different origins, strength, etc. But also, in the Prebiotic part, some manufacturers include specific food substrates. Things like yeasts. Things like "sugars". Either simple sugars like Glucose or complex sugars like Starch. Also, in some of these products, inert ingredients are added too. They just come along for the ride so to speak.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

So these combinations of your choice, are in play. A very wide spectrum of products. Now, I do not intend to promote or advocate any of them. They are simply out there for anyone to see, try or use however they see fit.

I will refrain as much as possible for directing traffic to these specific sites of different manufacturers making these Probiotic/Prebiotic products. And if and when I do, is simply to point you to the actual Microbes, their names (Identification) and the other things mentioned under the Prebiotic umbrella.

Since the DFM product received quite a good beating already and folks interested in this similar topic are somewhat familiar with the questions raised on it, I'll start with it first. Anyone can go to their site and see the label on the DFM bee targeted product, that lists all the Microbes, by name. Quite a few of them.

Just for contrast, one of the largest livestock and pet feed manufacturer in the world, Purina, also has joined the Probiotic market for pets. Namely, dogs and cats. Here is a link to their two products. One for the dogs, one for the cats.
https://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/probiotics/

You can find your way to either the cat or the dog product. Both products, have in it, as the Probiotic part, only one Bacteria. The same bacteria for the dog and for the cat. Namelly, _Enterococcus faecium_.

To simply illustrate the rest of the players in this product, Call them Prebiotics if you will, from Purina's site:

https://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/pet-food-nutrition/canine/products/fortiflora/
https://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/pet-food-nutrition/feline/products/fortiflora/

"Ingredients:
Animal digest, *Enterococcus faecium*, brewers dried yeast, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin E supplement, beta-Carotene, zinc proteinate, taurine, salt, manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite. D-4583"

Notice the Microbe, the bacteria in there. Bolded. So, only one type of bacteria. One name. Same bacteria for the dog, same for the cat. Lots of other ingredients to complete the package.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

So your point is?


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Barry said:


> So your point is?


Buy Purina for your dogs and cats, of course...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>deleted<

Yes I did. Hint hint


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I've been regularly participating in multiple forums for over 15 years. This is the oddest thread I have ever seen.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

...you know how those reality shows regurgitate the same information over and over and present it as something as new, so stay tuned!.... 

You brought up my comments from an earlier post, get to the point of doing so...


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Barry said:


> So your point is?


My point sir, is only related to the trial Mr. Randy Oliver will set or participate with Dr. Anderson in, using Dog probiotics. In bees.
That would take place while the USDA/ARS trial is on the roll.
So, only in that context. Since there are more than one probiotics, I just wanted to point to the Microbes in them and why they might or might not work. 
Do you think I am going out too far, in that context? As in Probiotics in prepared patties? 
Thank you for your patience.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

TalonRedding said:


> Buy Purina for your dogs and cats, of course...


Talon,
Absolutely not. For the record, I am not suggesting, recommending or advocating any product out there. Either in the links or the players I mentioned, or any other for that matter. I made that clear in the first line of #156.
At all. No dog, in any fight for me. I simply try to first clarify some things in my understanding, that yes, changes with new things, or new to me, that come along.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

I think this "sacred mountain" is getting taller and taller due to rhetorical uplift. The taller it gets, the more difficult the climb. We may never reach the peak!  Sorry Ian.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

I was gonna bring another example, only for reference, only to point out the relative high number of "Probiotic" types of bacteria out there, other ingredients that come with them, and how all those could or not, maybe benefit some of us looking from different angles.

But, since it gets boring I will get to the more pragmatic side of things.

Whichever product you choose if you decide to go this route, trial or jump in both feet. Here is what I would do, and more than likely do myself. Not to sell, not to buy.
1. Are the microbes in there? If yes, then, are they alive? or dead?
Well, there are a lot of Microbiology labs out there, that for a living, that is what they do. They look at that mixture/sample, and give you the answers. But you have to ask specific questions based on how much info you want or think you might need.
The more you want to know, the more questions you want them to provide answers for, the more work they gonna have to put in. And they will. They are good at it. It is only a matter of paying the service. Not gonna post links, so I do not send mix messages that I root for any of them out there.
They, the lab of your choice, will set up cultures to look for the answer. Dead or alive? once they see something growing, they will call and say, yes, something is in there, as in microbes. They are alive. 
Would you like to know, which type of these microbes are lighting up the culture plates? If yes, then they go and identify some more. Yes, the bugs are on the label, but are those bugs really in there ? I want to know.

Notice in the 1 strain only, Purina product, the name of the microbe is already listed, it is only one, so that would be much easier to identify than say a product with 10 different strains. 
The amount or minimum(Min) number of the microbe is reported on the label as Colony Forming Units.(CFU) That number on the Purina label is a minimum of 1 x10^8 CFU. Lots of microbes. 

Each one of those colonies, start from only one microbe. That one microbe is the unit.One. As each one divides, or reproduces itself, they grow exponentially if the culture conditions are set right. All Microbiology.
So that would be my first step. If this one does not take place...it's a gamble right from the gate. 
Ian, this would be my answer to one of your very valid questions. That would also be my step in answering that.Makes sense?


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

One more thing with the Probiotics. 
In the pet/livestock/animals world, there is no Placebo effect. 
That is found only in humans. That is one reason why the human trials are a bit tough to interpret. And yes, as so many have already pointed out, and correctly so, humans, dogs, and cats, or cows, no matter how pretty and how productive they are, they are not bees. We all agree on that. Yes or no? Rhetorical on my part, but a very valid point.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

To the questions on the presence, and actions of the Prebiotics. (certain food for microbes, certain yeasts, certain enzymes, all the stuff that will get the Probiotic culture going somewhere). Yes, a succession of sorts.

In post #120, Rader Sidetrack, right on point, provided an anchor in the world of microbes, their food, their partners and their interactions in the craft called bread making. Rader started that fine point, on another great observation that Talon brought to the table in #118. Namely, starters used in setting things in motion when making bread dough. 
Talon correctly observes the potential effect of placing the starter/dough/culture either in the oven, or in the fridge. Culture conditions and what they can, or cannot do. Yes, very important. 
I did not come up with that. So, for that, FWIW, thank you.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

apis maximus said:


> as so many have already pointed out, and correctly so, humans, dogs, and cats, or cows, no matter how pretty and how productive they are, they are not bees. We all agree on that. Yes or no?


Yes, so get back to the bees.


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

shinbone said:


> I've been regularly participating in multiple forums for over 15 years. This is the oddest thread I have ever seen.


I've just been reading one on another forum where they're discussing Ms Paltrow advocating steaming ones feminine bits to give "an energetic release that balances female hormone levels".
This thread is quite normal in comparison.
I'm not sure we'll ever get to the point, as its a bit like chasing the end of a rainbow, but personally I'm happy with the way the journeys going, it's quite diverting and I'm learning new things, mostly about bees and symbiots etc.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes Mr. Barry. Back to the bees.

Going back to Dr. Martha Gilliam's work, she notices the following on these microbes, grouped under the Umbrella of the genus _Bacillus_: "The second effort was concerned with Bacillus organisms associated with pollen and bee bread. Members of the genus Bacillus are rod-shaped bacteria that are capable of forming endospores aerobically. These organisms are commonly associated with worker honey bees". 

The reason for bringing this up, is for the presence and the capability of these microbes, very many in the genus _Bacillus_ that are capable of forming those endospores. In an oxygen, air surrounding environment. As opposed to say other bacteria from other tribes so to speak, that do the same thing in an environment, without oxygen or air. Anaerobically.

An endospore is a dormant, tough, and non-reproductive structure produced by certain bacteria. In the genus Bacillus ( many of them used in Probiotics) these microbes do that thing. 
It is a survival mechanism. A safe capsule, set for taking their genetic material to safer, better times and shores so to speak. Tough nut to crack that is. but will easy open up in the right conditions. Temperature, air, humidity.
"Endospores enable bacteria to lie dormant for extended periods, even centuries. Revival of spores millions of years old has been claimed." wikipedia

So these tough little bugs, given the right conditions can do a few different things. One, is multiply and expand the numbers. One culture type. Another is to simply go to sleep inside a safe capsule and wait. Endospore. Spore inside.
When the environment becomes more favorable, the endospore can reactivate itself to the vegetative state. Meaning, going from sleeping(dormant) to waking up, and getting to vegetate. And the vegetating thingie in this context, does not mean sitting on the couch and watchin' TV. It simply means, wake up and get busy. Go and reproduce.

So this was an attempt to answer why, these Probiotics are not gonna die. But, reactivate from the deep, safe sleep and go to work.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

For all of you that by now are frustrated, angered and upset, I would like to leave you with the following thoughts, before I'll depart. 
Please, accept my sincere apologies for all of that. I really mean that. Every one of you, has made ME better. Thank you.

I know, good riddance:thumbsup:

It is not my thought at all, but it does resonate with me. It is appropriate because it comes from a forum member that I truly respect and admire. It comes from another angle, that also stirs up a lot of hot exchanges on this very forum. Varroa and treatment free. The thought, his thought, applies very well right here. In this context. Thank you squarepeg, and I apologize if using your thoughts, as a sounding board, might come out as inappropriate or misinterpreted as out of context.

I'll let him say it. Peace.



squarepeg said:


> it's a worthy goal to be sure and there are enough successes to show that it is potentially achievable. i think it's wise to go into it with eyes wide open and with the mindset that there is no shame in reverting to............. if all else fails.
> 
> i am a member of our local club but i'm one of the very few who isn't utilizing standard management practices, kind of a squarepeg you might say.


Eyes wide open and a mindset. Yes, thank you all.

It is my last thought on a thread that I will ever initiate on this forum. 
And that is, this culture, our culture, is a mindset. A great mindset that took us places. And that, hopefully will only get better. 
But the mindset of a culture, based on the enthusiasm and feeling of power, so well represented in the by now classic saying: "XXXX the torpedoes, full speed ahead!", might not work all the time. That is my last thought. Promise. apis, out. Peace.

with respect, to all of you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYXE4zy_eRc


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

apis maximus said:


> For all of you that by now are frustrated, angered and upset,...


Perhaps "befuddled". Don't give up. This thread actually has a lot of potential.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i liked post #170, 'meat and potatoes'. :thumbsup:


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> i liked post #170, 'meat and potatoes'. :thumbsup:


Agreed.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

TalonRedding said:


> Buy Purina for your dogs and cats, of course...


:scratch: If they can take the poison.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

How many hives does Mr. Maximus have?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Barry Digman said:


> Perhaps "befuddled". Don't give up. This thread actually has a lot of potential.


could someone please PM me when he reaches a summary


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Maybe one more hive than you Shinbone
Johno


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

I have 400 hives and have learned a lot from those who have less hives than me. Mr. apis maximus was among those who contributed to my learning.

The question, in my view, should not be in the number of hives this has or that has, but the generosity with which each sharing what he knows and what he do not knows.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

That's it?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

johno said:


> Maybe one more hive than you Shinbone
> Johno


At the very least, no doubt. But, maybe AM will answer that question for himself.

I think it is a fair question for someone who claims he will provide the "WORD from the sacred Mountain." Especially, when, instead of any type of "word" we get near 100 posts of hemming and hawing and throat clearing.



.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

apis maximus said:


> are capable of forming those endospores. In an oxygen, air surrounding environment. As opposed to say other bacteria from other tribes so to speak, that do the same thing in an environment, without oxygen or air. Anaerobically.
> 
> An endospore is a dormant, tough, and non-reproductive structure produced by certain bacteria. In the genus Bacillus
> 
> ...


Yes that was very helpful,

Do the bees inoculate the pollen with the Bacillus microbes while process their pollen into bee bread?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Ian said:


> if the bacteria aint alive by the time the bees eat it... whats the point?


Exactly so. 

This is where the product SymBeeOtics comes into play: http://symbeeotic.apicellae.se/






This product was developed by the team that found the five honeybee lactic acid bacteria. Species of LAB that only live in honeybees. They cultivated them and sell them now. 

Make sure you check the literature: http://symbeeotic.apicellae.se/research-3/


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## SideYardBees (Jul 10, 2012)

I just found this thread today and greatly enjoyed reading through it apis. I found it because I was very interested in the topic of probiotics for my use. Much I knew, but much I learned. My conclusion is that this is an exciting topic for our immediate future. I will be watching for new studies and publications. Don't give up on this thread apis!


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## 779Farm (Feb 2, 2015)

I've been feeding my bee probiotics for 3-4 years now. Just an experiment. I have yet to kill my bees from what I deduce is my probiotics poisoning them. (winter ventilation and spring frost are my big killers)

I mix a water kefir that I grow/ferment for personal use, with my sugar when making a sugar syrup. I also mix the water kefir in with my patties for spring build up. I use a ratio of 1 part kefir to three parts water.

Has it REALLY helped? I dunno. It seems like I see less bee poop in the hives after my first spring inspection.

Cheers,


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

*Gut microbial communities of social bees*

Waldan K. Kwong & Nancy A. Moran
Nature Reviews Microbiology (2016) doi:10.1038/nrmicro.2016.43
http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nrmicro.2016.43.html

Also see:
http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nrmicro.2016.43_F1.html
http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nrmicro.2016.43_F2.html
http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nrmicro.2016.43_F3.html


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