# Top Bar Design Questions (The Bars Not The Hive)



## PHudson (Sep 27, 2014)

I made some 1 3/8 for the brood chamber and the other half I made mine 1 1/2. You could always use spacers with the 1 3/8 bar but I decided not to and this spring we will see what happens.
As far as the starter, I made some triangles of sorts and attached them to the bottom of the top bars. Then I dipped each one in some melted bees wax. You can see some pictures here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ps-Honey-Bees/335444223246743?ref=hl

Hope this helps.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

mine are purchased from Beeline Woodenware. Simple enough design that you could do yourself. One thing the picture doesn't show is that they are stapled/nailed in. I have not had any issue with comb detachment.


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## Silverbackotter (Feb 23, 2013)

I go with a mix of 35 and 38mm. They never seem to choose the right ones though. Ripping commercial 2"(1 1/2" planned ) works nice for one consistent size. 

For comb guides I root through my scrap and put my table saw on 45deg and start cutting strips and then tack them on the bars.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would use either a strip of wood or a bevel. You can buy Chamfer molding and use that, or cut your own on a table saw, or just cut a kerf and glue craft sticks (popscicle sticks/tongue depressors) in the groove.


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## erikebrown (Oct 27, 2014)

Just to complete the list, the recommendations I've seen fall into four categories

1. Just put a groove in the bar and fill it with wax to encourage the bees to start there.

2. Nail a triangle or other small strip of wood on the bottom of the bar.

3. Groove the bar and attach a thin piece of wood in it so it hangs down as a starter for the bees.

4. Wyatt Mangum recommends using cut foundation strips and attaching them with beeswax to a groove in the bar.

For the first three, most authors say you will get cross combing so you have to stay on top of this. For #4, Dr. Mangum says the bees will usually build straight comb from the strips, which is why he recommends this.

Good luck!

Erik


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1. Just put a groove in the bar and fill it with wax to encourage the bees to start there.

Barely better than nothing. In fact, for the effort involved, "nothing" is more worth the effort... I should point out, that if you have two drawn combs to feed the ones with no guide into, nothing actually works pretty well... not so much if you don't...

>2. Nail a triangle or other small strip of wood on the bottom of the bar.

Works very well.

>3. Groove the bar and attach a thin piece of wood in it so it hangs down as a starter for the bees.

Works very well.

>4. Wyatt Mangum recommends using cut foundation strips and attaching them with beeswax to a groove in the bar.

Works very well, but is more trouble and it's not permanent. I prefer permanent solutions...


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I always make two bar widths - 1.25" for brood and 1.5" for honey. I nail or staple strips of wood on the bottoms of the bars - I have used scraps - the tongues off tongue and groove lumber worked well. Then I just rub the edges down with hard beeswax - just a hint for the bees to find. It's way easier; it sticks. Melted wax doesn't hold well.

Adam


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## Silverbackotter (Feb 23, 2013)

erikebrown said:


> Just to complete the list, the recommendations I've seen fall into four categories
> 
> 1. Just put a groove in the bar and fill it with wax to encourage the bees to start there.
> 
> ...


This is a pain in the rump, I have done it and agree Mr. Bush it doesn't work that well.


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## onesojourner (Jan 9, 2014)




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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

onesojourner said:


>


I make mine similar to this. I prefer to mill the wedge into the bar instead of attaching them later. If I was making 1500 at a time I would probably put in a groove and then attach a starter strip made from wood, but I can knock out 150 pretty fast.

The only problems I have had is that I do get some that warp pretty bad. I put them in swarm traps.


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## reminniear (Apr 7, 2014)

I currently use option #4 Dr. Wyatt Mangum's method, but am planning on trying option #3 Groove the bar and attach a thin piece of wood. 

I'm very interested in hearing opinions of the 2 options (3 & 4) from people that have tried both. 

Coming from 2 years experience with 4 hives, I have never had anything but exceptionally straight comb using option #4. I have never had to straighten comb or manage it in any way (besides cutting where it was attached to the box). Even when leaving a hive unchecked for 2 months.

But like Michael Bush mentions, I'd like a more permanent solution.

So, if you've tried both methods I'd love to hear your thoughts.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

1.25" and 1.5" have worked pretty good for us. And the one piece wedge bars are great, but not enough better than the kerf + glue + tongue depressor method for me to spend the time doing the wedges again.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I'm pretty much the opposite as JW. I like the wedges better, but the ones with the kerf and the tongue depressors work as well.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

shannonswyatt said:


> I'm pretty much the opposite as JW. I like the wedges better, but the ones with the kerf and the tongue depressors work as well.


Strictly from a time investment standpoint, the one piece bars are just not worth the time for me. I can rip a 1x6, kerf, then cut to length in maybe half the time. And cheaper because I'm not buying 2x lumber.

The wedge bars certainly work the best, though.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I use 2x for the bars. Often I use scraps, but if I have to purchase a board you can get a lot of bars from a 2x8.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

Neil, will you be using a follower board? My method is to limit the bees starting out to 7 or 8 bars with a follower board. Those are the only bars that need guides. Once the bees have drawn comb, new bars are placed between them. You don't need guides on every top bar you make (unless you don't use a follower board, then you definitely will need guides on all bars). I use chamfer molding myself like Onesojourner. I used the waxed string method with my first hive and ended up with bad cross combing that took over four years to finally cut out (the queen preferred it for brood even when I moved it to the very rear of the hive). I've also made the mistake of spending lots of time cutting and shaping bars that didn't need guides since they ended up being placed between drawn combs. Now I just get 1"x2" finished boards (3/4" x 1 1/2") and cut them to fit my hives' width. I only bother with wedge guides when I start a new hive.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Yes, I've got follower boards made already.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I found that making topbars on my tablesaw, imitating the wedge on a Kelley foundationless frames, was very easy. I used 3/4" stock, cutting the wedge on long stock and then cutting the bars to length. The wedge cuts were made with a standard blade, the frame rest with a dado. For the wedge, I clamped correctly space guides on the table to hold the stock steady. First the angle cuts, and then the vertical cuts to remove the outside extra piece of the angle. I removed the frame rest extra before removing the spare angles cuts so that the angle extra material was there to hold the stock level on the table for the dado cut.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

I prefer my top bars milled from a single piece of lumber on the theory that it can't ever fall apart. ;-) Yes, it's more work, but it can all be done on the tablesaw and the final appearance is quite pleasing, I like a deep bevel. Also I had a bunch of 2 x 2 sitting around. Of course it's unlikely that a beveled piece will come off it you've attached it thru the top with a couple good screws.















NOTE: I've found it MUCH easier to get all the bars and bees settled back in with the spacer strips. Originally I ripped all the bars down to 1.25", using .25" spacers in store space. For the next hive I think I'll cut some at 1" width so I can use spacers in the brood area also.

For some reason the bees don't want to get out of the way when trying to get bars scootched up together with no spacers, if you have .25 spacers it's real easy to seat it on one end and gently work it down the length and the bees are very cooperative about getting out of the way. So much less stressfull on everyone than worrying about squishing bees trying to jockey sticky propolised bars together.

Steps:

Rip long 2x2 (actually 1.5x1.5) - cut .25 off of one side.

Rip bevels on long 2x2 - whatever angle pleases you - my bars were 1.5 deep, so I left .5 for the bar and beveled 1". I did find it helpful on the 2nd side to use some triangular pieces of scrap to stabilize the piece against the fence, this allows you to put a bit of pressure on the piece to ride along the fence without pushing the beveled end in. There's probably a better way. ;-)

Cut to length.

Make horizontal end cuts on bars for frame rests.

Make vertical cuts on bars to remove frame rest material. They could be straight, but I beveled mine to the same angle as the hive sides, same amount of work.

Be sure to show us some pics when you've done it!


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

odfrank said:


> I found that making topbars on my tablesaw, imitating the wedge on a Kelley foundationless frames, was very easy. I used 3/4" stock, cutting the wedge on long stock and then cutting the bars to length. The wedge cuts were made with a standard blade, the frame rest with a dado. For the wedge, I clamped correctly space guides on the table to hold the stock steady. First the angle cuts, and then the vertical cuts to remove the outside extra piece of the angle. I removed the frame rest extra before removing the spare angles cuts so that the angle extra material was there to hold the stock level on the table for the dado cut.


Nice! What kind of wood is that Frank?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Probably a mix of pine and redwood.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

I've not had a bar with added chamfer molding fall apart. I glue them first and then add a few nails. I suspect the glue alone might not hold up in the hive humidity, although if the bees completely cover the molding with wax, I don't think the humidity will have much effect. 
I saw this somewhere (Facebook probably) where someone used a 1/8" steel rod to close up his top bars. I picked up a 1/8" wooden dowel (cheaper) and it worked great. Now I push the bars so they have about 1/4" gap, set the dowel in, which pushes down any bees emerging between the bars, and push the bars up tight, and then slide the dowel out. It's so easy and eliminates squished bees.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Apismellifera said:


> I prefer my top bars milled from a single piece of lumber on the theory that it can't ever fall apart. ;-) Yes, it's more work, but it can all be done on the tablesaw and the final appearance is quite pleasing, I like a deep bevel. Also I had a bunch of 2 x 2 sitting around. Of course it's unlikely that a beveled piece will come off it you've attached it thru the top with a couple good screws.
> 
> View attachment 15246
> View attachment 15247
> ...


Your bars look like mine. I don't make the wedge quite as deep anymore, but the better the guide, the better the result.

The way that I get the girls down between is I first move the bar about a bees width between the next bar. On one side I will work it is about 1/4 inch, just big enough for the bees to get in. Then I use a J-hook hive tool to push the bees down and then I move the bar into the hive tool, and do the same on the other side. I used to have a coat hanger that I straightened out to do it in one pass, but I misplaced it and found that I could to it with the hive tool almost as easily. I may end up straightening several coat hangers and leaving them with each hive so I don't loose them, but the hive tool method works almost as well for me.

I've only used spacers on one hive that no matter what I did they would angle their comb on the bar. I made wedged spacers and got them to center it on the bar.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

odfrank said:


> Probably a mix of pine and redwood.


Must be Redwood. It looks like a hardwood or maybe Cedar in the photo.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

I make mine at 1 3/8. We started with 1 1/4 in the brood nest and 1 1/2 for honey but we and a lot of the people I help don't keep up and everything ends up off center. 1 3/8 on all the bars and a handful of shims works fine. I don't routinely shim out honey bars - just the first 1 or 2 I didn't catch. After that, I can introduce bars in between them and the brood nest and they will draw 1 3/8 perfectly - it doesn't matter if there's a guide or not.

I have been doing my triangular guides separate from my bars. The bars are 3/4" stock and the guide is a scrap of 3/4 by 3/4 ripped at a 45. Setup the table saw with some feather boards and that skinny stock cuts up fast and relatively safe. I use a primitive nailing jig to set the depth for the frame rest on 15 bars at a time. I "eyeball" the centerline and guides go on wih a bead of Titebond III (in a parallel universe, they might fall off...)


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I've used 1 1/4, 1 3/8 and 1 1/2. The only ones I don't recommend are the 1 1/2. The idea is to use them in the stores, but the bees don't listen to me. I made the 1 3/8 specifically for swarm traps but I have used them in some of the regular hives as well. There is probably a 1/16 of "swell" in the bars when it gets humid and hot.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If I was willing to spend the time, I'd probably make them all 1 1/4" and then make a bunch of spacers... but since a one by two is already 1 1/2" and that's what I end up with for honey storage, I just make them half and half. But making them all 1 1/4" and spacer to fix it when they start to make them fatter would work really well.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

For me making bars is like reloading shotgun shells. You get in a zone and it actually is stress relieving for me. Something that I don't have to think about, just focus. And don't cut off your fingers...


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## Michigander (Jul 31, 2014)

Has anyone experimented with plastic foundation guides? I have been going over a few ideas in my head and am hoping to rip down some extra rite cell foundation I have and attach them as guides. I was considering ripping a top board in half and then screwing them together with some plastic foundation sandwiched between them. Thoughts?


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> If I was willing to spend the time, I'd probably make them all 1 1/4" and then make a bunch of spacers... but since a one by two is already 1 1/2" and that's what I end up with for honey storage, I just make them half and half. But making them all 1 1/4" and spacer to fix it when they start to make them fatter would work really well.


You can rip 4 spacers off of each piece of scrap from ripping to 1.25".

I'm glad to see other folks have strategies to deal with getting the bars back together, I was wondering if I was the only one who had bees that didn't want to give up that last .25. Now that I see how easy the spacers make that I won't be going back.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I would do plastic before wax. At least if you drop the bar it won't break off. But anything will work. Using a foundation guide doesn't ensure they don't mess it up more than a wooden guide.


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

I use 1 3/8 throughout brood and honey and it serves me very well. I have not used plastic as a guide but wax foundation heat welded in just like Wyatt Mangum uses give me straight interchangeable comb every time.

EC


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## djjmc (Feb 6, 2015)

I have stock 1×2" from home depot. Comes in 8 foot lengths. Which is actually .75" X 1.5". Pine or red cedar.
I use throughout and have found the the bees make a band of honey the full width of the bar and then have the brood comb thinner below the band of honey.
I had to use shims for the 1 1/4" that I initially started with in the brood area.
I find that the pine also shrinks a little when it is not completely dry, from homedepot.


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## BackwoodsBeeman (Mar 22, 2014)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I always make two bar widths - 1.25" for brood and 1.5" for honey. I nail or staple strips of wood on the bottoms of the bars - I have used scraps - the tongues off tongue and groove lumber worked well. Then I just rub the edges down with hard beeswax - just a hint for the bees to find. It's way easier; it sticks. Melted wax doesn't hold well.
> 
> Adam


Adam, What length are your top bars?


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