# Feeding Honey vs. Sugar Syrup or HFCS



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Lots of stuff. Such as honey being different kinds of sugars. Then there are minerals not found in HFCS and sugar syrup. Someone else will have to give you a more complete answer. Or you could search for the chemical makeup of the three items you are asking about.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Enzymes, trace minerals, different pH, H202, several trace organic acids...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Pesticides will certainly be in the HFCS and maybe the sugar. If your bees are near monoculture it will be in the honey also. If bees are given a choice they will pick plants that are not sprayed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh man. Acebird, do you drink soda pops or juices from the stores? HFCS is in just about everything. Catsup for instance. Your statement is an exaggeration, if not a falsehood. And pesticide laden sugar? I've never seen that on the Ingredients Label on a bag of sugar.

Given the choice bees will pick plants that are not sprayed? I don't know what makes you think so. Bees are opportunists. They will exploit the most abundant and readily available source of what they need. Tainted or otherwise. Just because you like to think it is not so doesn't make it the way you wish it were. Or maybe you are baiting again.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Pesticides will certainly be in the HFCS and maybe the sugar. If your bees are near monoculture it will be in the honey also. If bees are given a choice they will pick plants that are not sprayed.


Pesticides arent commonly used in corn production although occasionally corn borer or cutworms can be a problem. Cutworm problems would involve a spray not long after emergence and well before pollination. Bt corn has been developed to eliminate the use of pesticide treatment for corn borer but that, of course, has raised the whole GMO argument. In any case to make the blanket statement that "pesticides will certainly be in any HFCS........ and in the honey also" is an incredible statement and one that needs to be challenged. It implies that the myriad products on grocery store shelves everywhere is contaminated.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Then what all yawl are saying is that the honey is more healthy for the bees than sugar and corn syrup. Then why not let the bees keep some of the honey they worked hard for for their winter stores, in stead of taking all the honey and feeding them man-made sweets?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Peaches said:


> why not let the bees keep some of the honey they worked hard for for their winter stores, in stead of taking all the honey and feeding them man-made sweets?


I support the idea of leaving enough honey on my hives for the bees overwinter.
Feeding honey has its pluses and minuses....in my opinion. If you're talking about using your own honey to feed them and your hives are healthy, that's one thing. If you buy honey you need to be very careful. Some bee plagues may well arrive with that 'bought' honey. Know your source.
Second, in my opinion, the smell of uncapped honey will trigger a robbing instinct much better than sugar/water. Be prepared!
So, if we're talking about leaving some honey on the hives, I agree.
If you are talking about 'feeding' honey (as the subject line implies), that's another matter entirely.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> It implies that the myriad products on grocery store shelves everywhere is contaminated.


Hey! Now you are seeing the whole picture. And I know you are going to want proof. So find me one source of HFCS that is NOT GMO. Monsanto, a German company has a stronger monopoly on our food source then AT&T had on communications prior to the bust up. It is getting stronger not weaker.



> Then what all yawl are saying is that the honey is more healthy for the bees than sugar and corn syrup.


It should be because that is what the bee’s store for themselves. It is conceivable that the bees collected pollen and honey from a bad source so its contamination level could be higher than sugar. Normally that wouldn’t be the case.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> If you are talking about 'feeding' honey (as the subject line implies), that's another matter entirely.


I have left open frames of crystallized honey in the spring and they acted like they didn't want it.
Would it be better to try and rinse the crystallized honey out of the frames and feed it to them that way?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Oh man. Acebird, do you drink soda pops or juices from the stores? HFCS is in just about everything. Catsup for instance. 

Unless you go to Europe where it is illegal and they will have sucrose instead.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Are you kidding? Death in a can.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Wow I didn't know that. Death in a can.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

> Unless you go to Europe where it is illegal and they will have sucrose instead.


Yeah - sucrose made from _Beet Sugar_.


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## OSafado (Jun 24, 2011)

Acebird said:


> So find me one source of HFCS that is NOT GMO.


What does GMO add to HFCS? I totally get it that you may not want to support Monsanto because of GMO and their business practices. But in the case of HFCS or refined sugar, what is the difference of the origin? Is there ANY chemical in the refined products with a GMO origin that does not exist in the refined product of an "organic" origin? 

Saying that their origin is GMO doesn't automatically make the end product dangerous. pure distilled H2O is H2O regardless of the source.

As for feeding bees honey, I had heard that if the bees don't have enough water, or aren't able to take cleansing flights, feeding honey can cause more problems than sugar water, which more closely mirrors nectar than does the honey.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Peaches,

I can assure you that many beekeepers DO leave the majority of the honey crop on their hives to insure against starvation and to prevent the need for feeding back sugar or corn syrup. Last year we left over 100# on each hive and our bees made it through a very cold winter in great shape.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Peaches said:


> Then why not let the bees keep some of the honey they worked hard for for their winter stores, in stead of taking all the honey and feeding them man-made sweets?


That's what we do. There is only one guy in all of beesourceNation who takes all of the honey away from his bees, but really he takes the bees away from his honey.

Those of us who feed our bees in the Fall do so as a supplemental food source in case the bees need it, so they won't starve. Sugar syrup and HFCS are what we feed for a cpl reasons. One, it is less expensive than honey. Two, it is easier to feed than honey. Three, it has fewer of those things that Michael Bush mentioned, making it more digestible for the bees w/ less a problem of possible dysentery.

You certainly can do as some beekeepers do and take honey in the spring, rather than late summer or fall. Leave all the honey on all winter.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> So find me one source of HFCS that is NOT GMO. Monsanto, a German company


Monsanto being a German Company, is that supposed to mean something inparticular?

GMO means Genetically Modified Organism. GMOs are not plants full of pesticides. Quite the opposite. They were developed so one could reduce pesticide use.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Would it be better to try and rinse the crystallized honey out of the frames and feed it to them that way?


Yes, I think you should do this.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

If the honey is crystallized and the bee don't want it, then I rinse the comb and let the ants have the liquid honey. For me, it is faster and I don't have to put up with the time delay.

Sometimes I will put the comb in a bucket of water and let the honey mix with the water then rinse takes a couple of days, but I don't have to stand over the frame.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

Back to the original point. 

I don't think that there is any argument that nectar and/or honey is a better food source for bees than HFCS or sugar under most conditions. My guess is that this would be more true for brood that's being reared then for adult bees. 

From what I understand adult bees are more or less like cars and they need energy to run. So, it doesn't matter too much what that energy is if it's compatible. Adult bees just run until they wear out, unlike mammals there isn't much repair or replacement going on. If you damage a bee's wing it's done. It's not like a sprained shoulder that will heal. 

Brood, on the other hand is made from pollen and nectar and the developing bee is totally dependent on what is available while it's forming. 

I have spoken to some pretty smart people that think bees winter better on sugar syrup than nectar because there are fewer solids in it reducing the need for cleansing flights. The bees pretty much just respire water and that's it. 

Beyond that there is convenience. Sugar is easy to use. I store mine in a big place called a store. I go there and give them money and they give me as much as I want for a pittance. 

Beyond dumping sugar into a hive there are other uses for it. In a drought or dearth a little bit of sugar water delivered by a mason jar with two or three holes in it will keep a colony's numbers from plummeting so hard and evaporation will help cool it a little. 

2 parts water to one part sugar left in a boardman feeder can show when bees have few or poor choices in the field. When they start taking that you're in a dearth. 

I think the argument between if or if not you should use sugar syrup is false. It's about being smart but it's easier to be absolute.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> GMO means Genetically Modified Organism. GMOs are not plants full of pesticides. Quite the opposite. They were developed so one could reduce pesticide use.


Holy Cow have they got you brain washed. They are genetically modified so they can survive pesticides and herbicides. The chemicals are put directly on the seeds before you plant. Monsanto already knows and doesn't hide the fact that insects develop immunities to pesticides. The program requires a planed pesticide usage to reduce this affect. So it is a plan of using multiple chemicals at the right time. And not following their plan will make the problem worse.

Less chemicals, I don't think so.

The only way to use less chemicals is don't ever use them. It is no different for bees, they are insects too.



> Monsanto being a German Company, is that supposed to mean something inparticular?


It means we have another foreign company that has more power in this country then its citizens.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

How is Monsanto a German company? It's was started in the Saint Louis and is based in the United States. 

How I hate hyperbole, second only to misinformation.

I think this guy wanted to know the practical uses for feed.


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## Thermwood (May 29, 2010)

Maybe he has it confused with Bayer?..............


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Thermwood said:


> Maybe he has it confused with Bayer?..............


 
Monsanto once partnered with Bayer to form a seperate entitiy called Mobay (*MO*nsanto + *BAY*er). Bayer bought the whole operation out decades ago. Way before GMOs came about. 

Either way, Ace is definitely confused, and paranoid


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

Sometimes I would like to see the politics left out of it. I am as far left of center as you can get and not live in Europe, but I had a Slurpy at 7-11 two days ago because they were free and it was hot (free Slurpies on July 11 every year). You know what? I am not dead. A slurpy is pretty much just water, corn syrup and coloring. 

Bees are pretty adaptable and you could feed HFCS or sugar water or honey and if you diluted all to the same specific gravity the effect of feeding or not feeding would be greater than the difference between any of the feeds. 

People seem to behave on the internet in a way they would never behave in person. We would never have a conversation like this in my local bee club, or at EAS or a field day. We'd be nice and say, "in my opinion" or "I think" or "my experience has shown"


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

taxonomy said:


> Sometimes I would like to see the politics left out of it. I am as far left of center as you can get and not live in Europe"


I have never been accused of being "Right of Center", myself. But is almost more than politics. It reminds me of religious fervor... perhaps evangelical. Whatever it is it is tiring and usually winds up sidetracking many threads here and on other boards. That said... I better shut up.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

hpm08161947 said:


> Whatever it is it is tiring and usually winds up sidetracking many threads here and on other boards. That said... I better shut up.


I hear ya and I couldnt have said it better, there are some topics you just have to walk away from it's simply not worth the wear and tear on my keyboard.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

taxonomy said:


> People seem to behave on the internet in a way they would never behave in person. We would never have a conversation like this in my local bee club, or at EAS or a field day. We'd be nice and say, "in my opinion" or "I think" or "my experience has shown"


Very true Adam. This is an attitude that Barry has tried to get us all to adopt, the use of I statements more than you statements. Thank you for reminding us/me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Yeah - sucrose made from Beet Sugar.

It might be or it might be cane sugar.

>I don't think that there is any argument that nectar and/or honey is a better food source for bees than HFCS or sugar under most conditions.

I would say the majority of beekeepers through the centuries have argued that honey is a better food source.

If you've read their work it's obvious that Richard Taylor, G.M. Doolittle, C.C. Miller, Jay Smith and many other queen breeders and beekeepers believed that honey was better than syrup. If you read modern writers you'll find them more split on the subject, but I would say about half or more would also say that honey is better food than syrup.

Here are a couple of quotes:

"Q. When is the best time to feed the bees? 

"A. The best thing is never to feed them, but let them gather their own stores. But if the season is a failure, as it is some years in most places, then you must feed. The best time for that is just as soon as you know they will need feeding for winter; say in August or September. October does very well, however, and even if you haven't fed until December, better feed then than to let the bees starve." 

--C.C. Miller, A Thousand Answers to Beekeeping Questions, 1917 

Many of them assume you know honey is better and just advice what to do if you don't have it:

"If honey is scarce, use granulated sugar and water, say five pints of water to six pounds of sugar, and mix either hot or cold; make a fairly thick syrup. When thoroughly dissolved, flavor with a little pure honey. Do not use glucose or grape sugar under any consideration." --Henry Alley, The Bee-Keeper's Handy Book I

Some come right out and say it:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Honey as Food for Man and Bees

"It has been proved that the worst foods for man are white flour and sugar. Therefore, if sugar is unfit for human food, how much more unfit is it for food for bees? Honey is the food God made for bees as bees produce more than they need it is evidently intended that we should have the surplus. Honey is rich in minerals and valuable enzymes which are totally lacking in sugar.

"I have proved to my satisfaction that the best and most vigorous queens cannot be reared when sugar is fed to the cell-building colony. Only honey should be fed if you wish to rear those prolific long-lived queens. To prevent robbing when feeding honey a feeder should be placed on the back of the cell-building colony the same as that on the breeder hive.

"It is well known that improper diet makes one susceptible to disease. Now is it not reasonable to believe that extensive feeding of sugar to bees makes them more susceptible to American Foul Brood and other bee disease? It is known that American Foul Brood is more prevalent in the north than in the south. Why? Is it not because more sugar is fed to bees in the north while here in the south the bees can gather nectar most of the year which makes feeding sugar syrup unnecessary? "--Jay Smith, Better Queens

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#The Feeder

"Honey is better food for the bees than sugar syrup"--Jay Smith, Better Queens


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## Kazzandra (Jul 7, 2010)

> Only honey should be fed if you wish to rear those prolific long-lived queens. To prevent robbing when feeding honey a feeder should be placed on the back of the cell-building colony the same as that on the breeder hive.


Now that's interesting. I wonder how I might do that... a back feeder with no entrance/exits for the bees.
It seems to me it would make front porch feeders of all sorts a thing of the past, whether feeding honey or not. No bees to pop out and sting you. Maybe a square cut out of screened bottom board and a yellow/black Brushy mountain front porch feeder with a hole cut in top with a cork?


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

taxonomy said:


> I had a Slurpy at 7-11 two days ago because they were free and it was hot (free Slurpies on July 11 every year)


 Me too


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

taxonomy said:


> How is Monsanto a German company? It's was started in the Saint Louis and is based in the United States.


I stand corrected. It is now so mixed up with chemical companies like Bayer that I thought it was German.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Bayer bought the whole operation out decades ago. Way before GMOs came about.
> 
> Either way, Ace is definitely confused, and paranoid


GMO's go back a long time.
When did bees start crashing?
http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/gmos_india/history.html



> Modern genetic engineering
> 1953
> James Watson and Francis Crick publish their discovery of the three-dimensional double helix structure of DNA. This discovery will eventually lead to the ability of scientists to identify and "splice" genes from one kind of organism into the DNA of another.
> 1973
> ...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

taxonomy said:


> but I had a Slurpy at 7-11 two days ago because they were free and it was hot (free Slurpies on July 11 every year). You know what? I am not dead. A slurpy is pretty much just water, corn syrup and coloring.


The slurpy might be free but the pills you have to take in later years are not.

My step daughter works at Stony Brook as a nurse. Because it is now common for a person 50 years and older to be taking a regiment of pills for diabetes, high blood pressure and obesity, you are considered normal. Obesity in pre teens is now an epidemic. How sad.

I find it astonishing that educated, smart people cannot make the connection. They turn a blinds eye to their own health problems. It is no wonder they do the same for their bees.

Enjoy your free slurpy.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

> GMO's go back a long time.
> When did bees start crashing?


I wasnt arguing about whether GMOs are a pontential cause of bee problems, or when the problem may have started. I was simply pointing out that you cant implicate some fictitious German-owned company for what you perceive as a problem with bees. 


Speciifc to my reference to Mobay, they were bought out by Bayer the ealy 70's. Certainly that was long before GMOs were commonly used in agriculture (your own post indicates that the _*first field tests*_ didnt occur until the mid-eighties). The first Roundup ready GMO (soybeans) weren't even commercially available until 1996.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Isn't Bayer a German company?:s


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

> Isn't Bayer a German company?


You said MONSANTO was a German company. (Post #9)

Sombody else said you might be confusing Monsanto with Bayer. (Post #24)

I added that there was a brief connection between Monsanto and Bayer at one point in time (thus maybe part of the confusion?). (Post #25)

You corrected yourself agreeing that Monsanto was not a german company. (Post #33)

Noboday on this thread (INCLUDING ME) said that Bayer was _not_ a German company.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I am a German American. Does that make me a part of the problem or a suspect player?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I am a German American. Does that make me a part of the problem or a suspect player?


As you know.. my wife is a German American too. I am getting quite suspicious of her. She may even Bee a GMO!!


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Aren't we all genetically modified at the point of conception?


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

You know, I thought this was supposed to be a honey and honey bee forum that talks about bee stuff. I can go to any country whether it be friend or foe and talk bees to anyone and not have politics mentioned. Yawl have all gone over board with this finger pointing. What we need is to find solutions to our bee problems, not to criticize each other or their political views.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

hpm08161947 said:


> She may even Bee a GMO!!


Maybe I was wrong. GMO may not stand for Genetically Modified Organism. It may stand for Germanically Modified Organism. What do you think Herr Herb?

So Peaches, what do you think the answer is to your question as posed in the OP? And, I don't think anyone was critiucal of anyones political POV, just their beliefs/opinions. Not facts.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

So Peaches, what do you think the answer is to your question as posed in the OP? [/QUOTE]

I think that the bees made the honey to their specifications, so that would be the best to feed them. It helps with the immune system. Vitamins, minerals, enzymes, etc., is to help with the health of the bees. I cannot see where man-made sweets could ever replace the honey as nature intended.

But the real reason I started this string was to get more ideas as to what all yawl thought. It has given me food for thought. I now have something to research and to think about. Thanks to all yawl that posted. That is real intercommunication.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Peaches I am sorry I made the German comment. I am half German. My father was born in Germany. I certainly have nothing against Germany and it's people.



> I think that the bees made the honey to their specifications, so that would be the best to feed them. It helps with the immune system.


Kind of like mothers milk verses cows milk. But if you ask a farmer who is producing the cows milk he will argue with you. Just follow your common sense. A substitute is a substitute. It will never be the real thing.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

I, too, am part German. I have been told all my life that Germans can do anything they want, if they want to bad enough (Hitler was Austrian). Some of the greatest minds came/comes from German stock. No offense taken. You are well known here in BeeSourceland, and you can help us keep these strings on course.


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## madrona (Jun 5, 2011)

So, sidestepping the fun of the extraneous chatter here and returning to the original question: if you feed honey to the bees, is it important to dilute it? I think someone earlier on this thread mentioned that honey doesn't have the same moisture content as nectar or sugar syrup, and thus could cause the bees a problem if you feed it? (Now that I write that, it doesn't make sense, because ideally honey is what the bees are eating all winter...so maybe I misunderstood.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Peaches said:


> What does honey have that sugar syrup and HFCS does not?


I think this question has been answered. See Michael Bushs' post #3. But then the discussion morph and turned into a debate.

What wasn't established was, Why are you feeding? What is the purpose of artificially providing any feed at all? 

Is the beekeeper trying to supplement winter stores? If so, it may be practical for a small scale beekeeper to move frames of honey from one hive to another. even in late winter or early spring to get a colony thru until spring. 

But, for someone w/ a larger number of colonies, feeding of syrup, either sugar or corn based, is more practical, expedient and of sufficient nutritional value to the bees to make doing so the right choice. There is nothing wrong w/ feeding sugar or corn syrup to bees. They handle it quite well. And thrive on it.

If one is feeding, usually in the spring, to stimulate comb production, sugar syrup has been the standard bee feed for ages. I imagine one could feed honey in a similar manner to the way one feeds sugar syrup, but, personally, it isn't economical. Sixty cent sugar versus $2.00 honey? I don't see how anybody, in todays' economy, could afford to feed honey to bees to produce wax. There must be more disposable income out there than what there appears to be.

So, the bottom line is, Why are you feeding in the first place? Don't your bees have enuf to eat? Why didn't they put up enuf stores? Or are you trying to manipulate and control your bees so they will do what you want them to, draw wax?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

madrona said:


> I think someone earlier on this thread mentioned that honey doesn't have the same moisture content as nectar or sugar syrup, and thus could cause the bees a problem if you feed it? ...so maybe I misunderstood.


The suggestion was that in the bees processing of syrup, corn or sugar based, moisture is produced and has to be delt w/, which may cause other problems. I haven't seen that, personally, even when feeding syrup in Nov. or Jan. in SC.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Is the beekeeper trying to supplement winter stores? If so, it may be practical for a small scale beekeeper to move frames of honey from one hive to another. even in late winter or early spring to get a colony thru until spring.


What is a safe temperature to do that and how long do you have to accomplish that task?



> If one is feeding, usually in the spring, to stimulate comb production, sugar syrup has been the standard bee feed for ages. I imagine one could feed honey in a similar manner to the way one feeds sugar syrup, but, personally, it isn't economical. Sixty cent sugar versus $2.00 honey? I don't see how anybody, in todays' economy, could afford to feed honey to bees to produce wax. There must be more disposable income out there than what there appears to be.


If this logic holds true than you should take all the bees honey and feed them sugar right through the winter. How will that work?



> So, the bottom line is, Why are you feeding in the first place? Don't your bees have enuf to eat? Why didn't they put up enuf stores? Or are you trying to manipulate and control your bees so they will do what you want them to, draw wax?


Yes, I would have to say that you made a mistake and didn't leave enough to make it through the winter. Why else would you have to feed unless it is a nuc with new frames? Harvesting the wax?


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Madrona,

Since I started this mess, maybe I can clear up some of the misunderstanding. I wanted to know what is better for the bees, honey or sugar syrup? Obviously, it is honey. Otherwise the bees would make syrup. My personal thought, is don't take so much honey away that you would have to feed the bees at the end of the winter.

The bees will use only enough honey to keep the cluster warm during the real cold times. Otherwise they can forage some to make up the difference. Now here is the problem: The main drain of the honey is right at the end of winter. That is the time that the queen starts to lay eggs to get ready for the Spring honey flow. (Again, I am talking bee Winter in the South which is November, December, and January.) The last of Dec thru the middle to last of February is the time to raise the brood so there is enough bees to start bringing in pollen. If they aren't, then you need to feed pollen substitute. The bees mix honey and pollen to make bee bread which is the baby food they feed to the larvae.

This is the time that the beekeepers need to be on top of their bee maintenance. Without either pollen or honey, the bee can starve to death. That is why you would mix up some syrup to feed the bees. Also in order to jump start the bees into thinking that a honey flow is on, you would feed thin syrup to get the bees excited and they would in turn encourage the queen to start laying sooner.

Obviously, there is enough differences of opinion about what to feed the bees is basically the same kind of differences of opinion as the use of queen/honey excluders. (hope this doesn't mix another string in here.)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Peaches said:


> I wanted to know what is better for the bees, honey or sugar syrup?


I wish you had phrased the question that way in your Original Post. But I still would have asked, "Better in what way? Why are you feeding them? What is the purpose of feeding them?".

Obviuosly the natural diet of a honeybee is Honey. But, other sugars can be fed to bees for different reasons. And not do them any harm.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

See? By your own words, you would have questioned either way. So it really didn't matter which way I asked.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Yes, I would have to say that you made a mistake and didn't leave enough to make it through the winter. Why else would you have to feed unless it is a nuc with new frames? Harvesting the wax?


If you need the income, and obviously many of you do not, the you feed HFCS 55 and sell honey. The HFCS 55 costs 0.20 per lb and the raw bulk honey sells for $2.00 per lb picked up in barrels.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

And I repeat, if that is the logic then why don't you extract ever last once of honey out of the hive and put the bees in a cage (call it a hive if you will) and feed them HFCS and pollen substitute? Don't let them eat any honey.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> And I repeat, if that is the logic then why don't you extract ever last once of honey out of the hive and put the bees in a cage (call it a hive if you will) and feed them HFCS and pollen substitute? Don't let them eat any honey.


It is not so much the "Logic" as it is the economics. And yes that pretty much is the way it is.... sell the honey... feed the HFCS.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I predict the long term effects of that is a disaster. Very much what is happening to human food.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I predict the long term effects of that is a disaster. Very much what is happening to human food.


When and if that happens, the price of honey will rise accordingly.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Peaches said:


> it really didn't matter which way I asked.


It doesn't appear to me that you were really asking anything. I think you'd already formed your opinion and were trying to set the stage to express it.


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## OSafado (Jun 24, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I predict the long term effects of that is a disaster. Very much what is happening to human food.


This type of prophesy is why this thread is so long. People come here looking for facts, not religious dogma. Is there any evidence to back up this prediction? We've heard quite a bit about HFCS and GMO sugar killing bees. Is there any evidence of this? Is there even any evidence that sugar or HFCS contains ANY amount of pesticides?

Acebird, I mean you no offense. I just think that it is only fair for readers of this thread that opinions are categorized as such, and wherever possible, facts are used to back up those opinions.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

IGNORANCE is the easiest thing you can give that doesn’t cost money. BAD ADVICE is next.​


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

What facts are there in beekeeping? I might want to read that book. It can't be more than a page long.


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## OSafado (Jun 24, 2011)

Acebird said:


> What facts are there in beekeeping?


Fact: Honey has been tested, and come up positive for varying pesticides:
https://estudogeral.sib.uc.pt/jspui... in Honey Samples from Portugal and Spain.pdf

I can't guarantee that your honey has pesticides in it, but I think it is very likely that mine does. I personally do not use any pesticides on my property, but I imagine some close neighbor does. 

You've inferred that GMO sugar has pesticides. Please back that up with some fact, as I have looked for some research backing this claim up, and have been unable to substantiate it.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Fact: Bees make honey


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

OSafado said:


> You've inferred that GMO sugar has pesticides. Please back that up with some fact, as I have looked for some research backing this claim up, and have been unable to substantiate it.


http://organicconnectmag.com/wp/2010/10/genetically-modified-sugar-beets/

There is no research because it has been BYPASSED! Why would you bypass the research unless you know what the results will contain. How about arsenic in chicken feed? Probably none of that when you eat that chicken right?


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## CharlieN (Feb 23, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Fact: Bees make honey


They sting too!  Or at least they do here in Arkansas......


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## OSafado (Jun 24, 2011)

Acebird said:


> There is no research because it has been BYPASSED!


It hasn't been bypassed. It just hasn't been found in the studies...

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2002-05-22/pdf/02-12849.pdf


> Knowledge of
> the highly refined nature of sugars and
> syrups also supports the conclusion that
> negligible residues are expected to occur
> ...


The refining process may take out the goodies, but it takes out the bad things too. Throwing in a boogieman word like GMO doesn't mean the end product is ANY different than and end product from an organic source.

Organic crops are HUGE business, are you telling me that they don't have the funds to do the research themselves? They stand to make a lot more money by proving HFCS and/or refined sugar has pesticide residue.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Organic crops are HUGE business, are you telling me that they don't have the funds to do the research themselves? They stand to make a lot more money by proving HFCS and/or refined sugar has pesticide residue.


Why? It would be like singing to the choir. People who don't eat organics are perfectly happy eating pesticides and they certainly are not going to believe any studies funded by organic businesses.

I thought you wanted to get off this subject? It doesn't appear to be.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> do you drink soda pops or juices from the stores? HFCS is in just about everything. Catsup for instance.


There is a huge push back on HFCS at the moment. Just about every product that is made with HFCS can also be purchased in a non-HFCS container. You just have to look for it. There are now many cane sugar soft drinks on the market. Many people in my corner of the world are drinking Mexican soft drinks because they are made with cane sugar.

HFCS is made from corn and almost all of the corn in US now is GMO. The GMO corn inherently produces its own pesticide and there is concern that that pesticide then gets in the food chain. Nobody really knows because it hasn't been proven either way. What you put in your mouth or in your hives is up to you.

Sucrose is made form sugar beets for the most part and almost all sugar beets are also GMO with the same risks.

Most of us feed in the spring to build up hives and then make more honey than the bees would on their own or feed packages to build them up. It's not a full time thing and none of us should be feeding while supers are on. I think you can still purchase real cane sugar if you want to avoid the GMO stuff.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Peaches said:


> See? By your own words, you would have questioned either way. So it really didn't matter which way I asked.


You didn't ask the question you later said you wanted the answer to. So, we may never know. Even though I have stated my knowledge and opinion on the matter as best I can. 

You will make up your own mind and follow your own path and that is fine. But it seems funny that you would ask a question about something which you already had your mind made up about.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> And I repeat, if that is the logic then why don't you extract ever last once of honey out of the hive


Because it isn't practical to do so and it puts more stress on a hive to do so. But I don't really think you were asking a question as much as you were making a statement about people who do feed bees after taking a crop of honey.

I think we feed bees too much. I see more and more Threads about feeding bees on this Forum and others. Usually these questions are being asked by new Beekeepers. Beekeepers need to know why they are feeding bees and how best to do so. Why we do what we do, as beekeepers, is important. Knowing how is important also.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beyondthesidewalks said:


> What you put in your mouth or in your hives is up to you.


That is true. And you will notice that the person I asked that question of didn't answer it. Perhaps because he does drink HFCS based sodas and fruit drinks. W/out some effort there is little else to drink.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

FWIW we run about 1/2 of our hives as singles with an excluder. You may not be taking every last ounce of honey but you are taking most of it, they live mostly off of HFCS the rest of the year with a few spring flows to help them out. The past year our feed costs per hive were about $20 per hive (around 10 feeds per hive for those of you keeping score at home) our honey income was about $200 per hive. The doubles which have a lot of honey stored in the brood nest tend to be a bit better bees but not dramatically so. In any case our bees have never looked better than they look right now, they must be building an immunity to the pesticides in the HFCS.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Oh brother!  What’s next? Are we going to argue that beet sugar causes tooth decay in honey bees and that cane sugar does not? 

http://www.eufic.org/article/en/nutrition/sugar/artid/sugar-from-beet/

Sugar is sugar. This is true weather it is cane sugar, or beet sugar. 

Beet sugar was first extracted about 250 years ago. But it was a commercial bust. Then 200 years ago this year, French scientist presented Neapolitan Bonaparte with two small loaves of beet sugar. Like most things in the human sphere, beet sugar was developed in response to war. The British Navy blockaded Europe to help stem Napoleon’s aggression. Since no self-respecting Frenchman or Austrian too would think about doing without his sweet treats, beet sugar was developed as a substitute for cane sugar imported from the New World. Soon all of Europe (except for possibly England) was completely self reliant in sugar, all of it home grown beet sugar. This may have actually been the point at which the Sun started to set on the British Empire. 

By the mid 1990s the EU exported 5,500,000 MT of ‘white’ or beet sugar out of a total yearly sugar production of 18,000,000 metric tons. This put the European Union far ahead of Brazil in total sugar production and the EU almost equaled Brazil’s sugar exports. You might say Europe is knee deep in beet sugar. If European beekeepers are better husbands of the honeybee, it is not because they feed their bees cane sugar, because beet sugar is almost the only refined sugar readily available in the EU.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

ScrapIron if you feed menthol and thymol together it will prevent tooth decay no matter which sucrose sugar you are using. Which brings us to the next point; does HFCS also cause tooth decay in bees?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>if you feed honey to the bees, is it important to dilute it?

I don't dilute it as it spoils too quickly. I feed it straight when I feed it. I prefer to LEAVE it rather than feed it.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Tom G. Laury said:


> ... does HFCS also cause tooth decay in bees?


Not if you buy each bee her very own itty bitty tooth brush.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> W/out some effort there is little else to drink.


No effort at all. Pure filtered water. There is nothing better you can drink. Unfortunately, the increase in chemical usage which includes drugs has shown trace amounts of drugs and chemicals in public water supplies. Most filters can't take these out so it is critical that we stop the increase and actually start the decrease of chemical usage including drugs. We are poisoning our future children by continuing this path. And yes, there is proof, look for it.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I read the first two pages and could not read anymore....that dang debate again on such a simple question..Get over it. Some feed them HFCS and some feed honey and some feed sugar...lets just deal and move on!

So back to the original question. 

In our cold climate leaving honey on can be detrimental to a hive. Not for any reason other than the plants they feed on. Canola which is a big crop in Canada can kill a hive really fast because of how it crystalizes. They can not liquify and utlilze the feed.

I have wintered hives on Clover and Alfalfa, but this honey is very different. 

The other reason is....
honey has pollen in it naturally. Pollen is like our meat in protien. The sugar is just like our carbohydrates. Pollen will build up in they system of a bee in the winter and cause them to have to poop more. However in our cold climate that is not alway feesible, and this can cause more poop inside or just outside the entrance of the hive. It clogs the pipes so to speak. Syrup of whatever kind however is pure syrup. NO protien. This then reduces the amount of poop reliefs a bee needs over the course of the winter.

Now on to spring. In our cold climate, bees can slow down build up on honey. They need to liquifiy it more. Syrup is ready for them to consume. It is easy on the engery needs allowing them to divert more energy in to brood rearing rather than also rearing brood and liquifying honey

Now on to another matter. Our Canadian Honey Council, recommends not extracting brood comb honey due to the "risk" of extracting syrup and the "risk" of extracting from comb which might have trace pesticides and TM and such. Now this is going to sound contradictory but it is not i assure you. I feed the honey from the brood frames later in the spring. When the bees are well on their way to getting ready and building for the honey flow. I feed them when the dearth happens in late May and June.

There you have it...reasons for the various feedings on the Canadian prairies!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Peaches said:


> What does honey have that sugar syrup and HFCS does not?


This was the original question honeyshack. Not whether to feed one or the other or why or even how.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> This was the original question honeyshack. Not whether to feed one or the other or why or even how.


On the other hand the original subject line is 'Feeding Honey vs. Sugar Syruup or HFCS. I'm thinkin' that honeyshack's reply was much more appropriate than the relentless, purposeless series of monologs that have become the meat of this thread.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

sqkcrk, my apologies...you are right...
...my answer would be...

...something not in syrup but found in honey is pollen...which would make them poop more in the winter. Something which can be detrimental if the winter is long and cold.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Many of the dark late season honeys are high in indigestibles, causing accumulation in the bowels. This is especially important if the bees are confined for long periods. They overwinter much better on sugar. In California a good example is tarweed; they can make their winter stores but later on may repaint your boxes yellow.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

GMO means Genetically Modified Organism. GMOs are not plants full of pesticides. Quite the opposite. They were developed so one could reduce pesticide use.[/QUOTE]

But the jury is not out on how or if modifiying the DNA of these plants(organsims) hurts or helps the end user be it human, bee, bovine etc....


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## Honeybear (Jul 16, 2011)

Hi all

I'm really green at this, but I remember reading somewhere that another reason to avoid sugar is its pH. It is different than honey and far more favorable for the growth of harmful bacteria in the hive. Have you heard about this? From a biology standpoint it makes sense...


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Many of the dark late season honeys are high in indigestibles, causing accumulation in the bowels. This is especially important if the bees are confined for long periods. They overwinter much better on sugar.


I have heard this too. I think there is a strong drive to just say "honey is best!!" but it really depends on what you're trying to do. To some extent you also need to factor in the convenience factor of sugar. 

This said, we fed honey this spring in comb form and we had great results from that, but that honey was for raising brood not for wintering. 

All this said I have never heard anyone raise the HFCS flag and salute it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Adam,
Would the thousands and thousands of gallons of corn syrup fed to colonies annually by beekeepers qualify as "rais[ing] the HFCS flag and salut[ing] it"? I think it qualifies as an endorsed practice.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

How many people still smoke? Does that make it healthy?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Would the thousands and thousands of gallons of corn syrup fed to colonies annually by beekeepers qualify as "rais[ing] the HFCS flag and salut[ing] it"?

It makes one wonder how many thousands of gallons of stored corn syrup are sold every year as honey...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Would the thousands and thousands of gallons of corn syrup fed to colonies annually by beekeepers qualify as "rais[ing] the HFCS flag and salut[ing] it"?
> 
> It makes one wonder how many thousands of gallons of stored corn syrup are sold every year as honey...


If you are referring to me The packers I deal with not only thoroughly test for it (at least they tell me they do) they require me to sign forms stating that the honey does not contain anything but pure honey. Before someone suggests that someone else would do something not only unethical but illegal they should have pretty good evidence to back it up. Operating our migratory operation the past year has required first a lot of feeding to get bees through the winter then stimulative feeding to prepare bees for Almond pollination followed by extensive nucing and queen cell production (this year in an extreme drought) then when we brought them north they sat in the cold and rain for another month. After all the feed they had been fed most still had virtually no stores when it finally warmed up in late June. I will put the integrity of our honey up against anyones. Everyone here who didn't do any supplemental feeding in the month preceding their major honey flow please raise your hand............kinda what I figured.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >Would the thousands and thousands of gallons of corn syrup fed to colonies annually by beekeepers qualify as "rais[ing] the HFCS flag and salut[ing] it"?
> 
> It makes one wonder how many thousands of gallons of stored corn syrup are sold every year as honey...


 Ah OH!

In New York where we don't have a definition of what honey is? The devil wins in some cases.
Here is what I am thinking. Where would you expect the most amount of cheating, in an area that doesn't have government regulation or one that has government regulation? It is not a trick question.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Ah OH!
> 
> In New York where we don't have a definition of what honey is? The devil wins in some cases.
> Here is what I am thinking. Where would you expect the most amount of cheating, in an area that doesn't have government regulation or one that has government regulation? It is not a trick question.


Methinks that is best left to its own thread. Seems like we have gone from me stating that I use quite a bit of HFCS and my bees are doing great (pretty much exactly what the thread was about) to MB wondering aloud how much HFCS ends up in honey (as if sucrose would be less of an adulterant) to you wondering about how much cheating actually goes on.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Adam,
> Would the thousands and thousands of gallons of corn syrup fed to colonies annually by beekeepers qualify as "rais[ing] the HFCS flag and salut[ing] it"? I think it qualifies as an endorsed practice.


I just mean I have never heard anyone actually recommend HFCS. Large commercial operations may use it, but it's not something I hear at bee club or on this board and it's not something I see in the bee books I own or check out from the library.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm not saying people are diluting honey with it, although some may. My point is if I feed HFCS to bees in large amounts I can't expect to get real honey, but rather bee processed HFCS.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> My point is if I feed HFCS to bees in large amounts


I think the key here is "in large amounts". I feed HBH in sugar water and do a little stimulative feeding now and again when supers are off. If we get late swarms I may feed to try and get them in shape to winter. 

Some small amount of sugar may wind up in honey doing this. 

These debates often wind up with people shouting about extremes instead of talking about actual practice. We barely fed at all this year having honey frames to feed with instead and still had what I consider to be a good early harvest, but I can't say that I don't, won't or never feed sugar syrup either to start a swarm on foundation or to deliver HBH or to help out a weak hive of for stimulative feeding. 

I personally think feeding thick syrup as late as possible with supers off helps to force the brood nest down, winters bees better as it contains less solids and is convenient. Again. I am not packing the hive with gallons of syrup because I stole all the honey, I am just shaping conditions to what my practice has shown successfully winters hives in context with the rest of my practice.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> >Would the thousands and thousands of gallons of corn syrup fed to colonies annually by beekeepers qualify as "rais[ing] the HFCS flag and salut[ing] it"?
> 
> It makes one wonder how many thousands of gallons of stored corn syrup are sold every year as honey...


We have a small scale beekeeper in our midst who told us about the candycane honey he produced and sold, so, I'm sure it happens. I'm also pretty sure that commercial beekeepers work hard at keeping corn syrup out of their honey, that's why they feed it the way they do. W/out honeysupers on the hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Ah OH!
> 
> In New York where we don't have a definition of what honey is?


The Standard of Identity of Honey Legislation is in the works at this time. The Legislation has been written and there are a number of Sponsors of the Bill. Keep your eyes and ears open. Ask your association members about it. I know a number of them are informed and aware of things bee related in NYS Legislation.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

taxonomy said:


> I just mean I have never heard anyone actually recommend HFCS. Large commercial operations may use it, but it's not something I hear at bee club or on this board and it's not something I see in the bee books I own or check out from the library.


Alright then, let me change that. I recommend that you use HFCS just as you would sugar syrup. How is that?

It may not be convenient for you or as avilable, but it works the same.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

taxonomy said:


> I just mean I have never heard anyone actually recommend HFCS. Large commercial operations may use it, but it's not something I


It may have to do with the quantities that you have to buy it in. We have to buy a minimum of a 275 gal tote from our supplier. Some guys get it in really huge tankers. It is not much of an option on a small scale. So no wonder you do not hear it recommended to the small scale beekeeper.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Hpm, That is a good answer. I think I will start another thread to see what it will evolve into.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The problem is this "when the supers are off" theory. Bees move things around all the time.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

I leave my bees lots of their own honey. If somehow it turns out that I need to emergency feed in the fall or early spring, I'm not averse to using sugar syrup that I've made myself. I do not feed any colony extracted honey, or even capped honey unless that colony was the one that made it. Refined granulated sugar _may_ contain pesticides, but honey almost certainly carries honey bee diseases or pest spores, probably something the colony I'm considering feeding doesn't have yet (if it's not their own honey).

I don't use HFCS. There's a popular movement against HFCS. While I personally have no problem with HFCS, am not convinced it is liquid death, I occasionally drink soda which contains it, and am under the impression bees will eat it just fine, the fact is a lot of my customer base is into the holistic/natural foods scene and it is good for my product to be able to honestly say to them that I never use HFCS or HFCS-containing products in anything to do with my bees.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> The problem is this "when the supers are off" theory. Bees move things around all the time.


Apparently now its only a theory that supplemental feeding can be done responsibly. If you want to ascribe to this method of guaranteeing honey purity you folks better blind yourself to the economics of profitable honey production and set back about the first 100 pounds per hive of your honey crop. OK given the fact that "bees move things around all the time" here we go with a new variation on a past question: "Everyone here who thinks its irresponsible to EVER use any type of supplemental feed so that they can guaranty the purity of their honey please say aye". "If on the other hand you feel that there are scenarios when feeding can responsibly be done with out threatening to adulterate your future honey crop please respond by saying nay"


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Life is not all black and white. But the further you get into the gray the closer you get to the black...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> Life is not all black and white. But the further you get into the gray the closer you get to the black...


Wait a minute didn't Confucious say that first?  I think I will take it as a nay though an argument could be made for a spoiled ballot.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> I think I will take it as a nay though an argument could be made for a spoiled ballot.


It's a hanging chad. 



Michael Bush said:


> But the further you get into the gray the closer you get to the black...


So, this is an argument for absolutism? Nuance is bad. 

It's also very much suggesting that there is a right and wrong here; that has a moral tinge to it. The further you are from the author's viewpoint the further you are from good. 


It could also mean that the older you get (gray) the closer you are to dead.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

As soon as I think this ol' dead horse has been beaten as much as possible.....someone breaks out the whips again........


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> The problem is this "when the supers are off" theory. Bees move things around all the time.


This is true, as I have learned from beesource and other sources. So, maybe there is no harvested honey which has absolutely no corn syrup in it, if the beekeeper feeds cornsyrup, or sugar syrup. Perhaps then, the solution is dilution. Those beekeepers who feed syrups produce a vastly larger amount of honey compared to the syrup which may be there to a degree which the syrup is undetectable. SOI may take care of this, for the public.

Feeding a colony of bees w/ syrup of some kind is not morally bad, imo. Not feeding a colony, imo, is immoral, if it starves. Since, they are animals under our care. Being so, we are morally obligated to care for them as best we can. Some wil starve anyway.

On the other hand, overfeeding, whether immoral or not, is wasteful and can lead to syrup tainted honey. Which is not what responsible honey producers do when they feed syrups to keep the colony alive or to stimulate the colony.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> On the other hand, overfeeding, whether immoral or not, is wasteful and can lead to syrup tainted honey. Which is not what responsible honey producers do when they feed syrups to keep the colony alive or to stimulate the colony.


We all know what happens in good times. What happens in bad times when it comes down to the survival of the producer vs. a slip of the feed?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Peaches said:


> What does honey have that sugar syrup and HFCS does not?





sqkcrk said:


> I'm also pretty sure that commercial beekeepers work hard at keeping corn syrup out of their honey, that's why they feed it the way they do. W/out honeysupers on the hives.


 Gettin’ a bit far afield here, are we?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird,
I'm not sure what you are trying to say in your cryptic way. But if you are alluding to syrup laden honey being sold as honey, here in America that has happened only at the bottlers, when some unreputable packer mixed corn syrup w/ honey. And this was prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law.

If you are pointing at producers and claiming that we intentionally mix syrup w/ honey to stretch trhe crop, tell us exactly who you are refering to. Otherwise, you don't know what you are talking about and only really imagining what you would do under certain circumstances. Which is not helpful here in this discussion.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Gettin’ a bit far afield here, are we?


Huh? What do you mean?


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## CharlieN (Feb 23, 2011)

Acebird said:


> We all know what happens in good times. What happens in bad times when it comes down to the survival of the producer vs. a slip of the feed?


I thought this was about survival of bees and feeding honey vs sugar (syrup) or HFCS?. Don't see how it becomes a 'slip of the feed'. Wouldn't the same practice be consistent good times and bad?


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

Sugar syrup is way more convenient than honey and winters bees better. It' also cheaper and I don't have to store it since I can just walk to the supermarket and get some any time I want. Generally I prefer sugar as a fall feed. Around here we have a lot of asters that can crystallize in the comb pretty quick. 

Honey may be better for producing good queens and brood. Therefore I hold some back from the fall take off around here to use in Spring. 

I don't use HFCS since it's not readily available here and I just have bad feelings about it because it makes kids fat. 

OK now we're back on track.


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## CharlieN (Feb 23, 2011)

I like to leave enough honey for the bees but am not adverse to feeding Sugar if/when needed - one can't always figure the weather . 

HFCS isn't available around here that I am aware of (but that means nothing) so is a non-starter for me.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Amen on the subsidies. I'm doing okay w/out a honey subsidy.


...on the other hand, I would be doing awesome _with_ a honey subsidy...


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

Some people seem to be getting honey subsidies. 

http://farm.ewg.org/persondetail.php?custnumber=A09232536
http://farm.ewg.org/persondetail.php?custnumber=A11589352


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

taxonomy said:


> we've created a soup of HFCS that makes the less informed and the less educated and the poorer at stuck with a slate of choices that are more or less all bad.


Okay, I see your point. Tho I somewhat disagree, since no one who has the equipment to and time to communicate via the internet on beesource.com should fall into the "less informed and the less educated and the poorer" categories.

There are plenty of less bad and good choices, one just has to see them and make them. No one is saying it's that simple tho.

Certainly you can see that it isn't the corn syrup that is causing our dietery/weight problems, can't you? There is nothing in HFCS that makes it any more or less bad or good for you. It's how much you use it. It's the over use of it, the over consumption of it, that is the problem. Not the corn syrup itself.

Certainly you aren't saying that there is nothing you can do to keep your kids from becoming another statistic, are you? That's sad.


OMG, one guy got $625.00 and another got $6,000.00. No wonder they are so well off. Should anyone blame someone who takes advantage of Disaster Relief or Crop Insurance? It's not like they themselves implimented the program. But, they would probably do something to keep going or not, if the Program didn't exist.

What if they also owned a Jet. No Tax Benefit for them either?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

If anyone wants to talk about HFCS and sugar as it relates to kids, people, etc., do it in Tailgater. Keep it on topic - bees.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

Thank you Berry. I almost wish I didn't start this string. I really wanted to talk about bees and bee health.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

New Thread already started in Tailgater.

If that's what you want to talk about Peaches, start a new Thread and stick w/ it.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

taxonomy said:


> Some people seem to be getting honey subsidies.
> 
> http://farm.ewg.org/persondetail.php?custnumber=A09232536
> http://farm.ewg.org/persondetail.php?custnumber=A11589352


Well that bites. The only way to for beekeepers to get subsidies is by being completely miserable. Drought, hurricane, tornado outbreak - sheesh!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Subsidies - Another tailgater thread.


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