# Randy Oliver's 8 second powdered sugar method



## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Randy's program was awesome, he touched on subjects that will be appearing in the American Bee Journal. He just asked Joe Graham if he could release some of his work online to get it out there and Joe agreed.
One of the things he pointed out, powdered sugar treatments will work if you start early enough in the year, early spring, when the queen starts laying, and most of the mites are phoretic is the ideal time to start. 
We saved our hives from a severe infestation early in 2005 by using powdered sugar about every 2 weeks. My chart is here http://countryrubes.com/informationpage3/picturesmisc.html 
Randy's method is on this page with a picture
http://countryrubes.com/instructionspage4/randyoliversmethod.html
and I reprinted it below.

The Oliver 8-second sugar dust method
This simplified sugar dusting treatment is no major breakthrough, other than that its quick (which places sugar dusting into the practical realm). The big question with sugar dusting is efficacy. I sacrificed one 4-frame collapsing colony to determine the efficacy of my method. In one hour, 34% of the phoretic mites dropped to the sticky board. I sacrificed the bees at that time, and washed all the mites off them. If I had allowed the dusting effects to continue, previous research indicates that mite drop would have been even greater. 
This test was of only one colony, and I have not yet tried to replicate it, so do not base your mite management upon its results. It was so promising, however, that I will undertake large-scale field trials this spring. I plan to test both top dusting, and splitting the boxes, as well as testing a menthol-infused powdered sugar that I have developed.
I will write up the results, a detailed review of the literature, and a mathematical model on sugar dusting for publication in the April or May ABJ. The initial model suggests that dusting should begin as soon as bees begin rearing brood, and should be repeated weekly for zero mite buildup, semimonthly for very low buildup, or monthly to keep mites from reaching damaging levels in a season. I strongly suggest that you read my article on Strategy in this months ABJ first.
I am not at this time saying that powdered sugar dusting will be all the mite control you need. My inspection of others data and colonies is promising, though. Dusting will likely fit well into nonchemical IPM, along with other measures performed concurrently. This is just a status of research report.
The method: 
Materials: 
1.	A 5 gal bucket with screw top to hold the fine confectioners sugar
2.	A bee brush with a 1 cup plastic measuring cup taped to the handle.
3.	A wood rimmed moving screen of 1/8 hardware cloth
4.	Janet has my permission to publish the photo of materials on her website. I will release step by step photos and a video after the article is published.
Technique:
1.	Smoke the colony
2.	Remove the cover and smoke the bees down off the top bars
3.	Put the moving screen over the hive, then use the cup to spread 1 cup (appr. 100g) of powdered sugar over the cluster area
4.	Flip the brush around, and use it to sift the sugar through the hardware cloth
5.	Lift the screen, and continue to use the brush crosswise across the top bars the sift the sugar into the beeways.
6.	Replace the cover.
7.	Not every one will be able to do this in 8 seconds. However, my rather slow moving son was able to get it down to 10 seconds by his second try.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Time of day would play a big part I would
think. Like late evening or early morning
to hit as many foragers as possible.

Sounds easy and I'm certainly going to give
it a go. Thanks and look forward to further
info and pics.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

It seems too much effort went into making this method cumbersome. Would it not be more efficient to use a sterile insect duster or flour sieve, open a yard of hives at a time and go from hive to hive dusting the hives this way? Although as in any commercial operation time savings is important, more importantly is to make certain the treatment gets done to maximize efficacy while streamlining time within that confine.

Are we to believe we are going to complete these 7 steps in 8 secods or it just the dusting method mentioned that takes 8 seconds?


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Would it not be more efficient to use a sterile insect duster or flour sieve, open a yard of hives at a time and go from hive to hive dusting the hives this way?

It might be hard to apply a cup of powdered sugar that way in a timely fashion. The sifter might work but then you've got to putz with it, guess at the amount of sugar being applied, and you still have to brush the stuff off the top bars. The screen over the top makes sense, it helps break up the clumps and more evenly distribute the sugar and the cup and brush combo sounds OK. It doesn't sound that cumbersome to me.

Personally, I can't see the 8 seconds per hive, but I don't care really. Even if it took 1 minute per hive with a 10 minute break every hour you could do 400 hives a day.... but it would be a long day


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

The approach certainly is fast, but I suspect
that taking a little more time would result
in knocking down a larger percentage of the
total mites on bees.

If one goes back to the original work by
Fakhimzadeh (in ABJ 2000 or so), one learns
that for the powdered sugar to be effective,
one need particles in the range of 5 microns 
to clog up the varroa tarsal pads, little
suction cups like things on their feet.

The only way I could get a good percentage of
these tiny particles was to use a baby powder
container (plastic, with the "salt shaker" type
top, full of little holes), and squeeze it
with an abrupt motion, creating a "poof" of
sugar dust (a "cloud", if you will).

See  here for the method I wrote up for Bee-L back in 2001.

Larger particles have no ability to do anything
more than feed bees, so one's mite drop directly
correlates to how well one can produce the
tiny particles of powdered sugar, and even apply
them to the backs of bees consistently.

That said, anything that can slow the growth of 
the mite population is a good thing, and if this 
approach can knock down enough mites to make
a significant dent, it would be easy enough to
do the "8 second" task every week.

The trick is to track the natural mite fall,
and compare the 3-day fall several days after
the application of sugar to prior mite fall
numbers. If one can set back the varroa 
population (as expressed by natural mite fall)
by more than a month, one can knock back one's
varroa population to "spring levels", and
thereby delay the need for a "real treatment"
until the late summer (or perhaps even fall) 
dearth.

So, you need a graph of natural varroa fall,
and you need to update it at regular intervals.

The good news is that powdered sugar is cheap,
so even if the "8 second method" forces one to
use 4 times as much sugar to get a mite drop
similar to "poofing each side of each frame",
the sugar is still cheaper than the labor.


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## flathead (Nov 1, 2006)

<you could do 400 hives a day.... but it would be a long day>

It would be a real long day around here with some three deeps to a hive, minimum two deeps.

We will try it. I wonder if window screen would be a little finer mesh?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Flathead I know one problem we would encounter in our region are those frequent days where humidity runs in the 90's to 100% range. It would seem a window screen would clog quickly under these conditions, espcially in a yard of 25 or 30 hives X 4 or 5 in a day. Possibly a sifter would have the same issue. At least with harware cloth I would not think clumping would be much of an issue.

If we use a cup of sugar per hive every two weeks to control mites is all this sugar going into our honey supply? At 5 microns is information being considered on how this may negatively effect trachael tubes since the covered bees would be inhaling quite a bit of sugar dust?

I like the no chemical aspect of this as well as the price. It appears Randy focused on making it efficient both with tools and process. I quess before I'd try it on a hundred or so hives I'd need to see the article and hopefully Randy's web site.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>days where humidity runs in the 90's to 100% range

Don't you call that "rain"?









>is all this sugar going into our honey supply?

I'm guessing 99% or more of the sugar ends up on the bottom board almost immediately.

>and squeeze it with an abrupt motion, creating a "poof" of sugar dust

Jim, I've tried the "poof" approach to powdered sugar treatments and found it horribly laborious and time consuming- so much so in fact that I judged it an unsuitable approach for anyone with more than one hive. I'll settle for 1/2 as effective and 20 times easier and 100 times faster any day.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

I used pwdered sugar last summer and felt it helped. I used a flour sifter about half the size of a coffee can. It worked well but I didn't time myself so I don't know exactly how many seconds it took to apply. The sifter seemed the fastest way to apply. I didn't put a set amount on just made sure they got coated pretty well. 
I liked it because it is fairly safe and easy to apply and couldn't really see it hurting a honey crop unless you got really carried away.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

With the varroa blaster, I'd get at least 80% of the mites.

I'd tried to expedite the process by using a bee blower and can attest that the bee blower method will throughly dust a beekeeper in about 2 seconds. No skill required :>)))

Say Jim, did you ever get that jet engine in your garage hooked up for dusting?

Regards
Dennis

[ February 17, 2007, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: D. Murrell ]


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

In the summer, when there is a honey flow on, you can see the bees removing the specs of sugar from the hive, they carry it out. They don't seem to use it all. In the fall, when there is a dearth, it causes robbing. We also have not used it during a honey flow although a lot of people do. We remove our honey 3 times a year and I got to dust inbetween the major flows, with one dusting as we remove honey supers to extract.
My old bottom boards are made with window screen, I'll try and use one of those with powdered sugar and see what happens.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I'll settle for 1/2 as effective and 20 times 
> easier and 100 times faster any day.

So would I, *if* it were as much as 1/2 
as effective. That's the point - what's the
natural mite fall that results, and how far
"back in time" (along the curve of varroa
population growth as represented by natural
mite fall) does a treatment of this sort 
take a colony? Dunno, have to try it and see.

> Say Jim, did you ever get that jet engine 
> in your garage hooked up for dusting?

Hehehe... nope, the backblast would knock
hives over. But it did make a nice "whole
house vacumn cleaner" - dusted off everything
to boot. Not really practical for those who
don't put away paperwork, or those that have
small pets.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>So would I, if it were as much as 1/2
as effective.

Randy reported 34% of the phoretic mites in his 4 frame test hive dropped in the first hour. That ain't shabby no matter how you look at it considering the cost in labor and materials.


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

is this method killing mites or just making them drop?


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

my understank lake thompson is that it simply dislodges the little buggers...


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I would not use it during a flow. I would
be the same as feeding "a little" syrup.
The potential for it to migrate up to the
supers has to be considered IMO. 

Plus the idea of lifting or pulling supers
to dust is more than unappealing.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Randy:

I suppose you are only dislodging the varroa. I also suppose most commercial beekeepers do not use screened bottom board as the pallet is the bottom board. Will dislodging them be sufficient to control varroa? If so how often would one treat?

While one the subject of screened bottom boards, why doesn't somebody make a screened bottom bottom board pallet? I had somebody make me some and they are good. They were kinda based on the Apinovar bottom board (which by the way is the best system for formic acid application IMHO). Unfortunately for most on this forum you do not have legal access to liquid formic acid (we do in Canada). It would be kinda nice say to sugar dust bees in the spring ( formic can be kinda hard on bees and queens) and in the fall use formic acid. A pallet with a screened bottom board and a pull-out tray would be great.

The person who made my pallets says it was a non money-maker. There are too many parts, 80 all told. Personally I'd like too see: 
1)A plastic molded pallet. No rot, no swelling of the wood in the winter which makes my pull-out drawers really difficult to open and shut. 
2) The screen would have to be either parrafin dipped if made of galvanized steel or made of stainless steel. This is in order too withstand the harshness of formic acid. 
3)Pull-out trays to the side is probably better than the front. The pull out tray is great for monitoring natural drops of varroa. It is also very good for applying liquid formic acid.

Can anybody do this?

Jean-Marc


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## lake thompson honey (Feb 11, 2007)

if i am not using screened bottom boards or sticky boards does this method have any merit for me? wont the mites just crawl back up on the bees?


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

You apply the liquid formic acid on the bottom board? I thought it was heavier than air and had to be applied on top so it would settle down through the cluster.
There were some plastic bee lids being offered for sale a few years back and I think they also had a pallet. The costs were pretty high. I will try and find out more about it.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Nick the formic is indeed heavier than air, but with the Apinovar system there is sort of entrance reducer built into that bottom board. It goes across the entrance and is about 1/4 inch high. It kinda creates a pool of formic acid down below. The bees circulate the formic fumes to try and dispel them. They get evacuated in a matter of a few hours. This method is called "the flash" method. High dosages for short periods of time. Jean-Pierre Chapleau who designed the Apinovar system spent countless hours designing, monitoring, perfecting the system. Basically there are dosage charts based on time of year, strength of hive (singles or doubles) and temperature. All in all he did his homework and I'm very impressed with the system and ease to follow his guidelines. The only drawback is I do not think those bottom boards could survive the rigors of migratory beekeeping. Hence I got some pallets made, but they need some tweaking.

LTH: I suppose the mites would crawl back up but I'm also asking the same question as you. With a screened bottom board it apparently works, so it would be kinda nice to be able to get on the phone and order a commercial migratory pallet with a screened bottom board that can last. Money is not the principal factor if it lasts and if varroa control can be achieved usinf formic and powdered sugar. That 1 time cost can be recovered over time.

Jean-Marc


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## Focus on Bees (Mar 6, 2006)

You don't need a sbb to use the powdered sugar treatment. What you can do is take a piece of tin the same size as the inside dimensions of your hive. Slide it in before you dust, then wait about a half hour and pull it out. You can spray it with oil if you like too. You will be supprised at the amount of mites that fall off. I did this last late summer and with each progressive treatment the mite fall dropped in half. I was impressed.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

This looks like a dandy applicator.

http://cgi.ebay.com/8CUP-STAINLESS-STEEL-ROTARY-FLOUR-SIFTER-bakery-Pastry_W0QQitemZ320056639736QQihZ011QQcategoryZ11875QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

This ones a bit smaller but can be run with one
hand and it's cheaper.

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Progressive-S-S-Flour-Sifter-Sieve-Pastry-Cake_W0QQitemZ180086169801QQihZ008QQcategoryZ20636QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

If you slide a piece of tin in (you can get them at the newspaper), remove it often. After a while (about 15 to 24 hours), the sugar can harden. The bees groom excssively for the next 3 days or so and many more mites drop,and they just walk on the 'icing'. They will jump back on the bees so fast. When I remove stickies (from under the screen), after a few days, when the sugar hardens, you can see live mites walking around and if a bee lands close by, they will attached as quick as a wink. We tried to scrape a mite off a bee that landed on a sticky. Couldn't do it. Then we put a pince of powdered sugar on her. The mite stayed balanced, but when we touched the mite with a stick, it just poofed off. (great description)
I think you know, we make SBB's for hobiest and was asked to consider pallets. We went to a commerical beekeeper (14,000 hives), and went over all of his stuff. He had already cut out squre sections and covered them with 1/4", but the bees hung underneath. 1/8" would be better. He also had built in bottom board frames with entrances that his hives sat on, you couldn't put a board over the screen unless you dismantled the hive, a big inconvenince. We just couldn't figure a good way to do it, without taking the hive off the frame. But that would work, right before a treatment of an acid.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Focus on bees:

Did you treat your bees with other products?
Are they alive and well today?
How many treatments did you do last fall?

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

2rubes, why don't you figure out a pallet for commercial guys. There's a big market out there.

Jean-Marc


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I read Randy's Article in ABJ. (Who's this George Ferguson fellow that crunched the numbers?  ) That alone raised the level of credibility for me!

I thought the article was well written and it looks like Randy did quite a bit of research, at least from the bibliography, and is apparrently planning to do more. Any mite knock down is good as a percentage of mites never recover to the brood nest. I don't think at this stage of the game I see the value in pumping cups of sugar into beehives to knock down mites outside of a small part of a successful non-chemical IPM. I would interperet the excessive grooming in itself as a sign of it (being covered with powdered sugar) being problematic for the bees. The picture of icing on bottom boards, in cells and on bees doesn't fit with my model of a clean brood nest and would likely be an attractive nuisance for other sweet eating insects as well as hive predators such as skunks. I'll look forward to seeing more research published as to the level of control that's achieved using this method.


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Hi Jean Marc,
We have used only powdered sugar since 8/04 which was our last Apistan treatment. We also do intensive drone brood management in the spring.
We dusted 3 times in September, about 5 days apart, then once each month (October,November, December, January and Feb). We usually have one nice week each month were our bees are flying and when I take a look, I dusted. We have 8 hives, 6 came through the winter real strong, and two are weak, not due to varroa, but cold weather (for us) down to 16 degrees while we were gone for 3 weeks. I think if I had been home to wrap our hives, they might have been stronger. Hence the problem with having a business, where before we were home all the time, now we travel to beekeeping conferences and clubs and our farm was getting a little neglected. We just hired caretakers who plan want to become beekeepers (yeah!) so that will help in the future.
I wish we could figure out some way to convert pallets. You are right, its a huge market. It would help so many large beekeepers. I was a vendor at the ABF in Texas and my booth was next "Used Pallets" out of Fresno, California. For 3 days, I talked to the owner. By the way, he makes pallets out of used materials, which I found interesting (I had seen his sign and and always thought he was sold already used pallets,not the case. Anyways, we put our heads together, as beekeepers had been asking him for solutions as well. How to make something without risking the integerity of the structure. 
When I started making SBB's, I never had more than 10 hives and I had not a clue what a commerical beekeeper used. My first show was up in Oregon and these guys were trying to paint me a picture of how they transported bees on pallets. My husband (the design guys) and I had to view someone's commerical operation and the owner spent almost half a day with us explaining how his pallets worked. He let me take home one of his pallets with the frames on it. His frames were on 4 sides with a built in space, about 4" for enterances. So you could not slide something in. If you had your built in frames made with 3 sides (like a traditional hive bottom) and had a full opening on one side, you could slide something on top the screen. Seems like John said the small openings were like built in reducers. 
I know Randy does not use pallets, and had 500 simple SBB's made for his operation. I had been using SBB's for almost 9 years and had reduced our pesticed (Apistan) application down to once in the fall until spring of 05 when we started to use powdered sugar. Screens do work to reduce a lot of the mite load, but doesn't quite work by itself.


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Your right on the icing, we try to get our sugar out within 12 hours, but that doesn't always work for us and our schedules. You need to get the sugar out. 
The positives, it's easy to knock down a load of mites any time of the year that the bees are flying and getting an early start before the queen starts laying in earnest will be one of the ideal times to dust. The only reason you have to dust multiple times is when you have brood to capture mites that were hiding out. 
That's me dusting, but since then, I've talked to some commercial guys, one with 800 hives and one with 500 and a bunch in the 250 range who all dust twice a year, once when making nucs and once in the fall and they say that's been very successful. The 800 is Franz Yordy out of Oregon who just invented those queen cages breeding system.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

The sifter Sundance posted is the one I used. It works good. 
If you cut a 6"or 8" hole in the center of your pallet and screened it. Would that work?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{250 range who all dust twice a year}

That seems like the best use for me as well. I'm going to try Bruce's sifter as opposed to the 5 gallon bucket and frame. (Bruce may I borrow your sifter?  )

Janet,any idea when Randy will have his website up? Also sounds like you have a pretty set IPM for mites, would you mind publishing it?


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>Who's this George Ferguson fellow that crunched the numbers? That alone raised the level of credibility for me!

It "affected credibility" for me too


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

I love the idea. I saw it at my local beekeeping meeting yesterday. A gentlemen was using the same thing idea and all and brought it to "show and tell". For me, I'm a hobbyist with only two hives I use a tin can (Wasabi peas to be exact) that came with a plastic lid. I got another lid when I finished another can. I perforated the bottom with a tiny nail over 100 times.

I fill the can with 5 or so cups of powdered sugar and I've got about 1/2 of a cup dry rice in there as well. I put a lid on the top and on the bottom so none of the sugar spills out in transport. It saves space and is a clean set up that I don't have to refill until before I head out to the apiary the next time.

After examining the hive (I do drone removal with OA vaporization in the Fall/Winter) I take the bottom lid off and shake until there's a good layer of powder on the frames, knowing the same quantity has fallen through the frames and the bees below. I then replace the lid to keep any more from getting out and brush the sugar on the top bar into the space between the frames. They look like little ghost bees running around.

As I get more hives I'll go to 2rubes idea as it will save time and ensure that the powdered sugar is dispersed such that it'll be effective.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Who's this George Ferguson fellow that crunched the numbers? [Big Grin]

Eh? What's that? Something in my eye?

Randy deserves all the credit, or blame, depending on how one feels about it. He just bounced things off me and I wasn't fast enough to duck. I just applied the straight-face test here and there and helped make his graphics make sense.

If I recall, this powdered sugar "thing" started out as what he referred to in his most recent article as an "enhanced" sticky i.e., another means of obtaining a drop count for mite population assessment. I mentioned to him in passing that it sounded a lot like a treatment and the rest as they say, is history. Or history in the making, since his new article hasn't surfaced yet. When it does I'm sure it will make a splash.

Randy didn't invent the powdered sugar treatment, but he will have done a great deal to promote and dignify it as a legitimate mite treatment. There's a lot of beekeepers out there that hear "powdered sugar" and think "donuts". That will change.


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## Focus on Bees (Mar 6, 2006)

Jean-Marc, I treated my bees probably in August, 

Treated most of the hives 3 times about a week apart. Then it got too cold. One hive actually a 4 frame nuc I did not treat. They didn't have mites. g All the bees are doing good, Early Feb. they all had basketball size clusters. Wed. I will open them up more to take a better look. Supposed to be warmer then. I know two of the five big hives have nosema, but thats able to be dealt with. I will be curious to see what the mite count is this spring. I did not treat any of my bees with any chemicals with the exception of fumigilin-B. Then only if I need to. I would be happy to not have to use that. So any suggestions for that I would be glad to hear.


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## summersetretrievers (Mar 4, 2006)

Ebay also has battery operated flour sifters!
Cindy


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Hi, sorry about the late post. We are in Oregon, heading to Eugene to visit the Lane Co. beekeeping Club and then to Shastina Mills the next day before heading home. We're buying enough wood to make a 1000 boards, Yikes. Anyways...
Joel, Randy has been working his website, and partly has it up. I offered to help him, but was supposed to down load a program first, and I couldnt seem to do it. Randy has someone to help me, but I ran out of time. I either need to get it downloaded or go over to Randys house and work on his computer. Maybe next week after we get back. A lot of my stuff and pictures are published on our website, www.countryrubes.com and you are welcome to take information for your clubs . I have a great PowerPoint on Screened Bottom Boards, Powdered Sugar Dusting and Drone Brood Management that I take on the road to use as a program for bee clubs. Randy just let me use his pictures and information for my program. I threw the pictures and charts in and didnt run through it again til I gave my program to the Mt. Diablo BKs. It ran for an hour, so I need to go and slim it down again before I show it, I have much info to share. I did try and upload the PowerPoint to our website but wasnt able to (too big). It would be way too big now and I should narate it.
Nick, yes, cutting the piece out of the bottom of a pallet and screening with 1/8 screen gives you a screen bottom board. Im glad to hear you have them. You have a bit of a ledge, and that would save a few mites, but the majority falls from the brood nest during seasons of emerging brood. Our boards are clear all the way down, in the spring and summer and fall, almost all mites fall in the middle. In the winter, the brood nest travels, you call tell by the brood shadow on the stickies where the nest is and sometimes its completely on one side of the hive. When we dust in the winter, there are mites right against the side. If you put your trays on top of the screen, that would prevent that problem. 
Tell me, those with pallets, since I only saw the pallets in one operation, could you leave the front entrance open, like a traditional hive, and put reducers in when you needed them? That way, you could put a piece of tin (I get those large pieces free from our newspaper, and they could be aluminum) in there when you use powdered sugar, or if you need a traditional type closed floor (bad weather, another type of fumigant where you want to protect your screen). Like I said, John had a 4th bottom frame piece cut for his entrance with a small opening, like permanent reducers. I think he said it was easier, when he was re-queening, that the percentage of queens taking was better, but I could be wrong, there was a lot of information there.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Pallets usually have a full entrance. Actually I've got some with a piece in the front that acts as a partial reducer. It reduces the entrance by about 3 inches. Pallets with clips are made with either a slight space between the brood boxes (1/2 ") or with the brood chambers touching. The small spacers kinda reduce the warfare between colonies as the entrances are slighly apart. I have both kinds of pallets. I could slide a tin tray once the bottoms had been cleared of wax and propolis. The others I could tip the pallet forward and slide in from behind. I'm not enthusiastic of either prospect as it requires a lot of labour. Screened pallets with a sliding drawer to remove the fallen sugar dust and mites could be good.

Jean-Marc


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Randy's sbb's have also have a lip around the edges. And he's using his stickies underneath. He is probably not cleaning the lip because you would have to dismatle the hives. I'll ask him about his findings. I know it attracts ants, but those little black ones have been carrying out mites, which is really pretty cool. I haven't had ants in the hive bodies.


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## Randy Oliver (Nov 27, 2006)

Jean-Marc
All your questions will be answered in my ABJ articles. I'm sending one off today, another in a month. Plastic pallets are available.
Randy Oliver


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

(answered in my ABJ articles.)

Hopefully the next article will include an apology for his #12 post here as well!


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Randy:

Hurray to plastic pallets and I look forward to the next ABJ article. Finished my first round of feeding syrup and patties. Bees are exceptionally good, less than 5% winter loss. This helps make up for last year's start.

Jean-Marc


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I treated last August and September. Once a week for 6 weeks. I sifted the sugar in the house first to get rid of lumps, etc. Before I went out, I poured the sugar into coffee cans with holes punched in the top. It only took a minute to shake / drop the sugar on top of the bars and the sweep it around with a bee brush. Seeing "ghost" bees flying around was neat. My bees always lined up at the chicken waterer later in great quantities. I'm guessing that they were liquefying the sugar in the hive. I always pulled the sticky board that afternoon and again the next day. Each week, the mite count dropped although I wasn't actually counting....just observing. Overall, I was very pleased with the results.

I'm thinking that I should be doing this again first thing in the spring. I'm new at all this and still struggling to come up with a year round mitigation plan. Anyway...just wanted to share my experience with this.


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## Focus on Bees (Mar 6, 2006)

upon later observation, my hives don't have nosema and they are doing great !! now to keep my fingers crossed


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

I think last fall when I was doing the OA vapour treatments I spent about 7 - 10 minutes per hive. This treatment "mite" need to be done only twice a year. Effectiveness, similar to formic, is well over 90%.

Compared to knocking down mites once a week as recommended for the powered sugar, it does not seem very exciting in the time saving aspect. How many times and what frequency do you need to collect the little beasts off the bottom board before they get rid of the sugar in their paws and climb back up ? Do they die on the bottom board?
I kind like a dead mite that falls through the screen and gets disposed of by all the other critters under the hive. Bottom board not required.


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## Jesus_the_only_way (Mar 17, 2006)

I also use a sifter similar to the one that Sundance posted. The one handed use makes it practical and it is easy to sift every spot needed. It is also very quick and I got it for less than $6.00 including shipping. It's an old one but it's perfect for powdered sugar. Thanks 2rubes for turning me on to this treatment. It is working great for me.


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## Focus on Bees (Mar 6, 2006)

2Rubes, what kind of powdered sugar do you use ? I tried to find stuff with no additives, but it is seemingly difficult to do . Any suggestions? I used the powdered sugar that my wife got and the cornstarch didn't seem to have any effect on them.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Plain powdered sugar (with the cornstarch) works fine for dusting. Just don't mix it for syrup.


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## Focus on Bees (Mar 6, 2006)

thanks Michael


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

I'm ready to toss my computer, my posts are not going up.
I just wanted to add, all of our powdered sugar has cornstarch. What I just found out, and I think it was Pamuela Gregory (I wrote, but haven't had a response), who studies bee nutrition, said that not all sugar is alike. Cane sugar is much more nutritional than beet sugar. That was for feeding bees, but I'm going to make sure all powdered sugar is from cane sugar from now on. C&H is cane sugar


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Pamuela Gregory (I wrote, but haven't had a 
> response), who studies bee nutrition, said that 
> not all sugar is alike. Cane sugar is much more
> nutritional than beet sugar.

This statement contradicts extensive studies done
in Canada on the question that found no difference
between beet and cane sugar for bee feed. Both
were found to be superior to stored "fall" honey,
and HFCS was found to have its usual mixed bag
of results, where the bees did well, but sometimes
did not live as long if fed a steady diet of HFCS.

I'd be interested in hearing her reasoning and
seeing her data, as I spent quite a bit of time
looking that the chemistry of both types of sugar
when preparing my "Sweeteners" overview for 
_Bee Culture_.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Cane sugar is much more nutritional than beet sugar.

They are both 99 44/100% sucrose. How can one be more nutritional?


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## MichelleB (Jan 29, 2006)

I was just informed that one can "powder" their own granulated sugar using a blender. I just tried it, and while it takes some effort, it works. I'd think a food processor would be a better option, or on a very very small scale, a coffee grinder. (Or you can be sneaky in the coffee aisle at your grocery store and use theirs...







)

If anybody has concerns about the cornstarch, this might be an option.

[ February 28, 2007, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: MichelleB ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I was just informed that one can "powder" their own granulated sugar using a blender.

I tried this and yes, it appears to work but I question whether the required particle size can be readily attained in sufficient quantity with this method. When I carefully sifted what I thought was powdered sugar obtained in this manner, a lot of the particles were way too big. Repeated sifting/milling were required to get just a little bit. If it isn't finely powdered enough you might as well be dumping table sugar in the hive. It seems like it would be a great way to ruin your blender! I can't imagine making buckets of powdered sugar with this method.

>If anybody has concerns about the cornstarch, this might be an option.

I've actually been toying with the idea of dusting with cornstarch to see what happens. Seriously


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{granulated sugar using a blender.}

Anyone know if this going to give you the 5 micron size Jim has refered to for effective kill vs just knockdown?

Not that it matters to me, there's no way my wife is letting me use anything in the kitchen to make powdered sugar!


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## Tillie (Apr 26, 2006)

Would there be any reason not to do this on newly established hives? 

I have one hive that made it through the winter (hive #2 died) and this hive is quite weak. I am doing powdered sugar on it at every weekly inspection.

I also have two new hives started with nucs two weeks ago. Should I wait for these hives to be established before starting powdered sugar shakes or will it be effective now to do it every two weeks as the queen is early laying in these hives (who are, by the way, growing like gangbusters)?

Linda T


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## Quint Randle (Apr 29, 2006)

If I'm not using SBB, I can either use tin with some oil on it, or some sticky paper slid in on the regular bottom board with some type of mesh screen. What size mesh screen?

Quint


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Tillie . . .

>any reason not to do this on newly established hives . . .

If your mite drops shows a need . . . DO IT!


Quint Randle . . .

>What size mesh screen . . .

8 x 8 mesh. But, I highly recommend a true SBB rather than something "inserted" through hive entrance.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> >Cane sugar is much more nutritional than beet sugar.
> 
> They are both 99 44/100% sucrose. How can one be more nutritional?


Are you thinking of Ivory Soap? The 99 44/100 thing is their slogan. that said, you are right, neither is more nutritious thatn the other.

Keith


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Are you thinking of Ivory Soap? The 99 44/100 thing is their slogan.

You're not a country music fan.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Yes you can "make your own", but the corn starch will hurt nothing,
so why bother? I've not measured how many of the proper particle
sized particles you'd get with a blender, but I can't imagine it working
out as well as just buying powdered sugar.

But if you must make your own, you need a *Blendtec*.
http://www.willitblend.com/


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Ok, I give up, I tried several times to contact Pamela Gregory on cane suger vs beet sugar and no response. I talked to so many people in Texas, I'm not sure it was her that I heard it from, but she hung out with me quite a bit during the conference. 
If I get it figured out, I'll repost, but for now, I'll retract my statement. 
Thanks for the input.
Janet
ps. I tried using powdered sugar with one of our old screened bottom boards made out of window screening and it worked perfectly. It was a lot faster than sifting.


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## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

are you supposed to use a sticky board w/ this method? Or maybe a tray covered in CRISCO?????

Some people are suggesting sticking an oil covered tray directly in the entrance of the hive, but won't the bees get stuck in it too?


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Hi Hummingberd;
Yes, you use the plastic board, slid in under the screen and when you are using powdered sugar, and don’t oil it. You don't have to clean the oil off either first. And you never want to oil the plastic if you are sliding it on top of the screen (hive you want to keep warmer, or if using a fume type miticide). You want that sugar (and mites) to fall below the screen and then collect it and toss it away. Although I think there’s a lot of dead and suffocated mites, Dr. Eric Mussen keeps telling me the mites are not dead and this is how he collects them for his experiments. 
You are right, the bees will get coated on an oiled sticky on top of the screen and that's not good. It was one of the reasons that the back entrance is so nice. Our original SBB sat on top of a traditional bottom board and the entrance was at the entrance of the hive. No matter how fast I went, bees were always landing on the sticky while I was sliding it in under the screen. Have the lower front entrance helps a lot, but I still loose a few. (I have to use the front entrance on the hives I have against a fence).
We have lots of pictures on our website, www.countryrubes.com on using powdered sugar. I have a picture of Randy using his top screen as a sifter with powdered sugar. His screen is 1/8 hardware cloth. Mine is window screen (no pics yet) and it works great. Probably even better as this would sift the sugar particles to even a finer consistency.
Janet


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Worth mentioning Randy had another in his series in ABJ on Mite levels and IPM, certainly worth reading. His science background give him a good ability to work through this process in comprehensive manner.

I'd be interested in hearing some good input on his articles from others (Jim!)


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Janet and others:

I was just reading BWrangler's web site. He claims a dusted mite is a dead mite. I see Janet says differently. So which is it? If indeed a dusted mite cannot recover than I see no reason to use screened bottoms. I guess I should try this and see what happens.

Jean-Marc


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

jean-marc said:


> Janet and others:
> 
> I was just reading BWrangler's web site. He claims a dusted mite is a dead mite. I see Janet says differently. So which is it? If indeed a dusted mite cannot recover than I see no reason to use screened bottoms. I guess I should try this and see what happens.
> 
> Jean-Marc


 Hi Jean Marc,
When I look at the mites in powdered sugar, they seem dead or I see feeble feet moving. I wouldn't think they would be able to get out. But that powdered sugar hardens after a day. And if you use a SBB with a sticky screen and leave that powdered sugar in, and then pull it after a few days, you will see a lot more mites than you get in a natural drop, running around. That's because of the grooming that continues for a few days. When I carry that same board to the trash bag, bees try to land on it, I think, attracted to the powdered sugar. And live mites will attach so fast, I can't even see them move. I got a great picture of a poor bee with a bunch of mites on it that I'll try and post on the new picture gallery.
If you use a closed bottom, the sugar will harden on the bottom and you will have to dismatle your hive to clean it. The mites that are groomed off in the next few days will fall and just reattach to the next passing bees. 
And I know I've mentioned this, Dr. Eric Mussen swears that the powdered sugar doesn't kill them and he uses powderd sugar to capture live mites for his experiments. 
I just tried to use the photo gallery and couldn't figure it out. I posted them on our website here http://countryrubes.com/informationpage3/mitesstickyboardpictu.html
Sincerely,
Janet


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Janet:

I see what you're saying. Darned Varroa. 

Jean-Marc


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

Wondering how infused PS is going. I'm wondering why wintergreen or tea tree oil infused in sugar and then ground to mix and dusted should kill mites not just knock them off.


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

I'm still having great sucess with plain powdered sugar. I've spoke with people who used garlic powder and felt it works better, but I have never tried it. I dusted 4 hives, (3 are really nuc boxes stacked high which I'm trying because of weight issues), beginning of March. There were some mites, not a huge load. I just did a sugar shake a few days ago and did not see any mites. I have all of the bottom boards opened and the queen is laying. Lots of capped broad. I'm on natural foundation.


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