# For those removing hives out of walls.



## Aisha (May 2, 2007)

*Ditto*

Blammer, we are on the same wavelength. I did my first removal yesterday and I made some frames with 1" square bird netting on one side and stapled it on. 

Truth be told, I didn't need them and I took them apart today with a staple remover. I decided that the 1" plastic would interfere with too many cells. 

The way you have cut the plastic out in most spots is ingenius. I may try it again. Thanks for the innovation.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Congratulations, you invented the swarm frame. Seriously, do a search here for Swarm Frame. It's been done and you can buy or make them.


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## blammer (Jul 28, 2006)

I did a search and found NOTHING like what I have.

If you do have some links please post them I'd be interested to see them.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

swarm frame kinda looks like your invention in my opinion.

http://www.beesource.com/plans/swarmframe.htm

Of course I had never heard of a swarm frame before this thread.


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## blammer (Jul 28, 2006)

Well all right!

Never would have called it a swarm frame but I can see how that name came to be, cause of what they were using it for.

How much are they per frame?


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## Angi_H (Feb 9, 2008)

Look Up WvBeekeeper he has swarm frames that have the wire run through holes on the sides of the bars with it split the way you have it with a hinge in the bottom cornor. Very practicle and he sells them. Look in the for sale place and look for swarm catch frames for sale. It is there he has been making them for a while. I like the wire running horzontaly as it will hold the comb in better if you have to place more the one piece in there or it has a twist to it. Verticle wires dont hold it in place very well and allows the sides to curl when you have a colony cutout that has very awkward twisted snake like combs. And when you have to take bits and pieces after you took long cuts but you want to save as much brood as you can it really helps allot. Congrats on thinking something up to help you with what you needed. I really think one of the beekeeping supply places would start to carry some with the horrozontal wire as I would buy a couple of hives full of them. They sell the bee vacs now why not the frames.
He does not charge to much I think If I remember right the med were 4 something and the deeps were 5 something because of the time wireing all of them and drilling extra holes in the ends and cutting them in half.


Angi

Angi


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Yep. That's the ticket. You did just the right thing. They work great don't they.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Just want to give credit where credit is due. These frames were "invented" by Ed and Dee Lusby. I had never seen or heard of such a frame till I met the Lusby's many years ago. The plans specifically say that they are for personal and non-profit use only.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

And you can make the frames from plans from beesource.com from scrap that you have around the shop and not cut up nice frames


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

Ross, I didn't want to pop his bubble, he sounded so proud Guess its like they say"theres nothing new under the sun"


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Sorry, just going for full disclosure


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## blammer (Jul 28, 2006)

all I know is that NOBODY around in my neck of the woods had any idea other than the rubber band idea. And to me that sucked!

Not even experienced (5 yrs or more with 20 or more hives) knew of anything.

so I set out to "invent" or make something better.

Oh well.

I don't have any old frames all I have is new so cutting a few new ones was no big deal to me.

Somebody else may have invented it, but the person who refines it and presents it to the masses at a reasonable price is the one who will 'cash in'.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

"cash in" and beekeeping seldom go in the same sentence (unless it's "put some more cash in"). I still use rubber bands and I've been seeing swarm frames for a few years at least. Good luck.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Very nice work, and better yet, diligent work to improve the basic idea.
Best of all, you used "whatever was lying around".

All these traits are the classic traits of craftsmanship in Engineering.

But even the Lusby's did not invent the swam-catching frame.
I'd have to hunt through a pile of books to find it, but I know I've seen
an old photo of something very similar. Maybe an old edition of ABC&XYZ
maybe and old edition of Hive&Honeybee. Maybe one of Eva Crane's books.

For those stuck using rubber bands, the trick here is to put 2 rubber bands
on a frame on one side. If you are right-handed, pick up the frame in your
left hand, with the rubber bands to the left. Side the comb into the frame,
between the rubber bands. Side the rightmost rubber band further towards
the right. Comb is nestled in the frame.

No, that's not right - the comb is mangled, and it looks a mess.
If you did not bee-vac the bees off, the bees are angry, and are flying
up at your face.

But a real engineer can do for a dollar what anyone could do for two dollars, so the un-split frames with the warp-around fence stuff is what I
would use. I bee vac compulsively, so I won't have a problem with using
a staple gun to attach the last few inches of wrap to the top-bar.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I'm trying to figure how many of them I would need. Lets see, three cutouts per week all summer long, that would make, uh, naw forget it. I'll stay with the empty frames and rubber bands. I have become quite adept to working the rubber bands with the hook end of the hive tool.


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

They certainly are useful, aren't they? I have nothing but respect for those who do the "rubber band and blank frame method but catch frame sure are nice, and if you have a bunch of solid white comb it's basically mush if you try ot band it in.


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## blammer (Jul 28, 2006)

I found someone who will make my frames for me.

I hope to test them out soon, and will report back with results.

If anyone is interested, I'll get some details on pricing for you.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

I never do cutouts without 1 or 2 helpers (occasionally I will even have 3 helpers, when my 14yr old needs cash LOL), so the rubber bands are not an issue as there is always one person to hold the comb in the frame just right and another to carefully band it without damage to bees or brood.


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## blammer (Jul 28, 2006)

You're fortunate. 

Usually it's just me, as most of my "help" usually is "busy" for some reason or another.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I don't like swarm frames. The problem they present is getting them circulated back out of the hive and the comb removed so you can reuse them. I use rubber bands and find it quick and easy. The bees chew the rubberbands off the frames and remove them from the hive. I never have to break good comb out of frames so I can do another cutout.


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## allrawpaul (Jun 7, 2004)

Good point Bluegrass. You may need 10 deep catch frames for a cut out, ($50), and since they are stuck in another hive, you have to keep buying them for the next cutouts. That would get expensive. You could make your own, but It would be time consuming. I've never done a cutout, but the rubber band meathod is what I would use if I did. What size rubber bands do you use.?


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## Walt McBride (Apr 4, 2004)

*Rubber bands*

#33 work great for deep frames. For medium deep frames tie a knot near the end of the squeezed #33 to make it fit tight over the smaller frame.
Walt


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## d.asly (Apr 28, 2008)

i just squished the comb onto the wires in the middle of the frame. (i had small sections that i cut in with a sideways motion - a bigger comb you could place on a board cut to size so the frame fits over it and then push the wire in with one of them small screwdrivers for glasses). the bees cleaned out the mess and fixed everything up. i figured the loss wasn't so much, all things considered. moreover, it's good to have wires where they belong. four weeks later all seems fine to me.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

My catch frames are made the same way except that I staple a strip of cloth along the top of the top bars to form a hinge. Since most of the comb from a cutout is old and very strong so I don't use any wires or internal supports. I just close the frame over a section of comb like a book, cut away the outside comb, and hold the book closed with a couple rubber bands. It takes less than two minutes to do. After I get the bees established I put the swarm frames above an excluder until all the brood is emerged, remove the old comb and store the frame until needed again.


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## geoffkb (Jul 2, 2007)

*Plastic Chicken Wire*

I've recently tried using thin plastic chicken netting (the netting is plastic not the chickens)  The mesh is 1" and you can cut it with scissors.

I cut a piece slightly larger than twice the size of a frame. Then I staple it to one side of a frame, leaving the surplus loose for the moment. 

When I'm doing a cut-out, I lay a prepared frame on a board, cut out a comb and lay it in the frame, cutting off excess to make it fit. Then I fold the netting over and tack it with a staple gun to hold the comb in place, trim off any extra netting and put it in a hive box.

It's early days but I think it's going to work fine. When the bees have fixed the combs in the frame I think I'll be able to remove the mesh without causing too much damage.

It's cheap, easy and seems to hold the combs firmly when the hive is transported home.


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## Baloo (Feb 28, 2006)

I took the "aluminum hinge" in the Lusby's swarm frame plans to mean "cut up soda cans". They work really well, just cut up some soda cans (into squares) with tin snips and staple them to the frames for hinges. I put some on the top too, so I just staple the frames together after I put the comb in them.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

I make mine with pieces of rubber (old inner tube) stapled to the bottom of the "catch frames" for hinges and have boxes made up to hold the top bars together till the queen goes into the second box then use excluder (found a good use for them) till all the brood is emerged then cycle the comb out and clean teh frames for next use.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Baloo said:


> I took the "aluminum hinge" in the Lusby's swarm frame plans to mean "cut up soda cans".


That is exactly what it means. That's what the Lusby's use, I'm sure one could come up with all sorts of creative ways to make the hinge.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I cut a 1" by 1" square out of a two litre bottle for the hinges.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

honeyman46408 said:


> I use excluder (found a good use for them) till all the brood is emerged then cycle the comb out and clean teh frames for next use.


Now there is a thinker for you. But how do the drones get out?


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## blammer (Jul 28, 2006)

Well my split frames worked just perfectly.

as far as cost?

It's included when I price out the job to be done.

I've done 5 jobs getting them out of houses and they work beautifully!

I made my own custom bee vac too. I have ZERO dead bees due to the bee vac.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I'd like to see the beevac that never kills a bee. Care to share?


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## Durandal (Sep 5, 2007)

I just frames sort of like these that Cass (WV Beekeeper) put together for me (and others). They work great.

I made a video of me doing a cut out using them. Easy to use...REAL easy...as are any of the variations I see here.

Here is a link to the video I just posted: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220066


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## livetrappingbymatt (Jan 13, 2006)

*swarm frames*

One of my biggest problems is getting good comb for swarm traps.My traps are 5 frame nucs.Inside I use 2 drawn combs and 3 undrawn. 
When the brood has left my swarm frames the frame go into my trap (nucs) .
If moth damaged after the season remove mess and clean frame for next cut-out.
bob evans


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## RBar (Jun 22, 2005)

*Follow-up*

These are super simple to make, very sturdy, though, to use hinges makes them a little pricey.
(Cheap hinge source, anyone?!)
Instead, I cut little aluminum flashing squares and stapled them to the bottom, only had one come loose during use, I bent the frame open way too far...one only needs to slightly open the frame to insert the comb. Next batch, I may run the flashing strip the length of the botton to be able to include more staples. Also, medium super size may usually be too small for a lot of cut-outs. A standard hive body is just right for a colony in between flood joist...fits perfectly except for rounded edges, the bees fill in the corners within days. 
One other alteration I would recommend in the online design: The top bar really needs to have a bee space at least in the middle of the bar. One half of a bee space each side trimmed out so the bees can easily get up into a super, if one has a big cut-out and wants to try to get some honey out of it the same year. This would combine the best elements of your design and the one mentioned. 
Of course, one would wish to reuse the frames next year...so...how?
After the bees have settled down at home, I begin to insert nice new frames and foundation (I use small cell...highly recommended!) into the middle of the brood, removing a swarm frame on the side which is mainly honey or pollen anyway. (I feed this one back to the bees.) More wax to the wax pot.
You have the bees converted to standard frames gradually , AND soon regressed.
Works for me...whatever works for you, use it... 

Roy



blammer said:


> Well all right!
> 
> Never would have called it a swarm frame but I can see how that name came to be, cause of what they were using it for.
> 
> How much are they per frame?


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## RBar (Jun 22, 2005)

*follow-up on the follow-up!*

Oh, take your staple gun with you...a well palced staple or two is enough to hold them together at the top once you have the comb in...!

Roy



RBar said:


> These are super simple to make, very sturdy, though, to use hinges makes them a little pricey.
> (Cheap hinge source, anyone?!)
> Instead, I cut little aluminum flashing squares and stapled them to the bottom, only had one come loose during use, I bent the frame open way too far...one only needs to slightly open the frame to insert the comb. Next batch, I may run the flashing strip the length of the botton to be able to include more staples. Also, medium super size may usually be too small for a lot of cut-outs. A standard hive body is just right for a colony in between flood joist...fits perfectly except for rounded edges, the bees fill in the corners within days.
> One other alteration I would recommend in the online design: The top bar really needs to have a bee space at least in the middle of the bar. One half of a bee space each side trimmed out so the bees can easily get up into a super, if one has a big cut-out and wants to try to get some honey out of it the same year. This would combine the best elements of your design and the one mentioned.
> ...


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

"These are super simple to make, very sturdy, though, to use hinges makes them a little pricey.
(Cheap hinge source, anyone?!)"

I use a piece of old innertube (rubber) stapled to the bottom for a hinge, I got that idea from my (non mechaincal Wife) and am still liveing that one down


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## Baloo (Feb 28, 2006)

Ross said:


> I'd like to see the beevac that never kills a bee. Care to share?



http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DC515K...60-0834815?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1215272224&sr=8-2

The 18v cordless DeWalt shop-vac will not hurt bees even if they are vacuumed right into it with no power loss (do this a lot if there are only a few stragglers). I have a bee-vac made of buckets and plumbing fittings that works great. Its design is a bucket that has a large hole cut in the bottom and covered with hardware cloth. This bucket fits into another bucket so there is no loss of suction, BUT when it is full of bees, you can remove the bottom bucket and give the bees needed ventilation. I have had 5lbs (I did weigh them) of bees survive (with less than a dozen dead) for about 17 hours. When used in conjunction with a corded shop-vac, I use an outer bucket that has a loose fit so the suction is not too strong. I do a lot of removals and I am very happy with it.


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## geoffkb (Jul 2, 2007)

Baloo said:


> http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DC515K...60-0834815?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1215272224&sr=8-2
> 
> The 18v cordless DeWalt shop-vac will not hurt bees even if they are vacuumed right into it with no power loss



That was weird, when I read this posting on my Blackberry I thought I'd written it myself.

I use a DeWalt portable shop vac with a double bucket arrangement and have found it invaluable. At first I thought the vac was too whimpy, even if you use 120v power, but then realized this was actually a good thing.


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## Baloo (Feb 28, 2006)

The handle of the bucket will "clip" the vac onto the top of the bucket and hold it, allowing me to carry it with one hand. I really like it.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*I tried the GEOFFKB frames today - PICS*

Used my 11 1/14" deep frames which held the big pieces of comb, one with 2X2 deer fencing and one with 1X1 garden fencing. Advantages - quick to make and easy to load by one self, cheap, frame is re-useable, disadvantage - bees can't remove it like rubber bands.


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## geoffkb (Jul 2, 2007)

odfrank said:


> Used my 11 1/14" deep frames which held the big pieces of comb, one with 2X2 deer fencing and one with 1X1 garden fencing. Advantages - quick to make and easy to load by one self, cheap, frame is re-useable, disadvantage - bees can't remove it like rubber bands.


Was the 2 x 2 deer fencing the same plastic stuff as the garden 1 x 1. I would think 2 x 2 would be better. Is it easy to get?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

It is thicker/stronger and I think a better material for that use , less bars covering the cells. Not easy to get, probably only in 100' rolls.


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