# Diving in Head First - Colorado



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Are you saying got _other people_ to contribute more than two thousand dollars to pay for your new bee hobby/project?

I am happy for you, but I am puzzled why people would do that, especially for someone who has not, yet, had the sole responsibility for keeping hives alive for the long term.

You do have your work cut out for you, probably in ways that aren't even obvious, yet. My bees throw me curve balls all the time. 

I read the materials on your link. You do know that bees are not in any danger of disappearing, right? They are far too valuable to humans, and truth be told, they are tough as nails. 

Is 40-60 lbs honey harvest per hive a reasonable figure in Ft. Collins? 

There are some BS members that are active on these forums from Ft. Collins. Perhaps you could connect with them to get expert local mentoring to safeguard your donors' investments. May I suggest that visting each of the colonies "once per month" may be less than ideal?

Enj.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Welcome Dillon!


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## Wosiewose (Oct 31, 2015)

Welcome, Dillon, from another Colorado newbie!

According to their website, last semester CSU offered a beekeeping course (non-credit). If they offer it again this year, that might be a great place to meet local beekeepers who can give you lots of local advice. Very happy to see that you were able to connect with people who are interested in your project and willing to contribute!

Best of luck with the bees!


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

enjambres said:


> Are you saying got _other people_ to contribute more than two thousand dollars to pay for your new bee hobby/project?
> 
> I am happy for you, but I am puzzled why people would do that, especially for someone who has not, yet, had the sole responsibility for keeping hives alive for the long term.
> 
> ...


The campaign is set up as a honey sharing program in which I get funding to build hives, take care of them and ship out honey to those that donate. Yes we raised over two thousand dollars and yes i am new to beekeeping. I hope you understand that I am not in any way trying to deceive or cheat people out of their money so I can fund my hobby. I keep donors updated with the progress of the hives and ship them comb/honey in return. Nearly half of the people donated without the desire to receive anything at all and every donor was grateful for the opportunity to contribute. 

As for the declining population.... I understand they are vastly valuable to humans and I would like to believe that we would preserve their species worldwide. That being said there are parts of China that are inhabitable to bees and require hand pollination. Will that ever happen in the US? I doubt it, but having gone from 5.7 million colonies in 1947 to 3.5 million in 2015 they are not headed in the right direction. As mono cop farming increases, I expect to see the decline continue as well. I am not trying to argue by any means. You undoubtedly know more than I.

40-60 lbs may be on the high side of reasonable. My friend collected 30 lbs/hive avg last year but said years ago he harvested closer to 45. 

Thank you, I do plan on connecting with more beekeepers in Ft. Collins. I will undoubtedly need their advice/support throughout this first year. I have already reached out with two active beekeepers in town and they have offered to mentor me throughout this process. 

Lastly I will be visiting each hive at minimum 2x per month, with periods of visiting them weekly. That was a gross error on my part in making the video. 

I really do appreciate your concerns and advice.

Thank you

Dillon


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

Wosiewose said:


> Welcome, Dillon, from another Colorado newbie!
> 
> According to their website, last semester CSU offered a beekeeping course (non-credit). If they offer it again this year, that might be a great place to meet local beekeepers who can give you lots of local advice. Very happy to see that you were able to connect with people who are interested in your project and willing to contribute!
> 
> Best of luck with the bees!


Thanks for the CSU info. Ill check that out now. Unfortunately I missed the NCBA registration deadline but I believe Copocos Beekeeping 101 class still has availability. Ill find out tomorrow.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I wasn't suggesting you were being deceptive, just maybe not fully informed.

For instance you wrote


> but having gone from 5.7 million colonies in 1947 to 3.5 million in 2015 they are not headed in the right direction.


. You realize that the 1947 high was the result of public policy during World War II to dramatically increase the amount of honey to replace sources of sugar which was rationed and for beeswax, a much-needed war _materiel_.

After the War honey became less popular when sugar supplies were no longer controlled (and some of beeswax' uses were probably replaced by plastics made from petroleum feedstocks.) As a result there was less demand for hive products and fewer colonies were needed, so fewer colonies were maintained. But nothing intervened to harm them. Is that bad or good? Whatever you think about it, it is a separate issue from making claims that honey bees are in some kind of worrying decline that can be remedied by parking hives in backyards here and there.

I am no fan of Big Ag, having grown fruits and vegs on a small-scale commercial farm for many years. But I think there is some irony in the often-heard complaint that modern agriculture is killing the bees which will result in a food shortage crisis while at the same time modern agriculture practices are remarkably successful in providing us all with cheap and fantastically varied food.

I teach beekeeping to beginning beekeepers. Of course, I hope that they learn to take care of their bees confidently and with skill. But I also hope that they connect on a personal, direct level to the production of their food, which is a good thing all by itself. I taught horticulture for many years and that was my constant goal with that as well. So I think your project is quite valuable on that score, without all the hand wringing about the dire peril of honeybees, which is to a large degree propaganda. 

My suggestion is to dial back the apocalyptic issues and concentrate on exposing people to the fundamental human pleasure in rediscovering our ancient skills of gathering, raising, making our own food. I'm not at all suggesting returning everyone to food self-sufficiency. But it inevitably makes people more thoughtful about food to participate in the tremendous amount of work (albeit a lot of fun on a small scale) involved in feeding ourselves. 

I am glad you have found local mentors to help you succeed, and I wish you well with your project. There is lots of help here on BS, too, so don't hesitate to ask questions - chances are there is someone who has the answer you need. It has never failed me.

Enj.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Welcome. I hope all works out well for you!


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

enjambres said:


> I wasn't suggesting you were being deceptive, just maybe not fully informed.
> 
> For instance you wrote . You realize that the 1947 high was the result of public policy during World War II to dramatically increase the amount of honey to replace sources of sugar which was rationed and for beeswax, a much-needed war _materiel_.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the explanation. I had no idea that the honey production was correlated to public policy during WW2 but that makes a lot of sense. There is an overwhelming amount content online suggesting that honey bees are in a state of crisis. I apologize for not researching it enough. Whether or not there is any validity to the public conception of a decline in the species I am happy to know that beekeeping is gaining interest and attention. The other main aspect of my project is to encourage others to take up beekeeping. I am not starting an apiary in which all the hives are in one location. I chose to spread them out over town so that others can experience having a hive with the hopes that they take it up as well. 

I also strive to be self sufficient and see the beauty in it. I grow veggies, make kombucha, brew beer, build my own instruments etc... I believe you are spot on in that the focus should be to encourage others to work towards rekindling the relationship we have with how our food is created. 

Thank you again for the information and advice.


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## Teal (Jan 30, 2014)

Welcome and good luck!


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## IsedHooah (Jan 13, 2015)

Welcome and good luck!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Good luck to you!

I am good at devils advocate, so I am going to take a shot here, please take it as constructive.

You sold shares....your a CSA and now in business that means

A) You owe sales tax on your almost $2,200 in sales

B) You need to brush up on the Colorado's leagle, and food safety requirements for progressing and selling honey. Do to the way you are doing things (internet sales/shipping honey) the state says


> honey is considered a processed product, you must also register with the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment as a wholesale food manufacturing facility. Once you have registered your food manufacturing business, you may be inspected by CDPHE. You may also need additional licensing and your processing facility may require inspection from your county health department.


 http://cofarmtomarket.com/value-added-products/honey/

C) The hives are not for personal use, you need an urban ag permit from the city http://www.fcgov.com/developmentreview/pdf/urban-ag-license-app.pdf 

D) Your marketing it as "Organic, non GMO, Pesticide free" honey, those are some strong claims, some of them evoke possibly leagle standards . How do you plan on accomplishing that in an urban landscape?


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Welcome, from your neck of the woods. Good Luck with your obsession, and hopefully you can draw upon your experiences from helping your friend.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

If you go into it with the attitude that you're going to learn how to make more bees from the bees you have...ie: queen rearing, splits, cutouts, and swarm captures you'll find that your apiary can easily double every year and still have heavy losses that you can recover from fairly easily.

It's a rocky road so measure the depth of the water prior to diving in head first.
I think you'll do fine if you don't mind a little hard work and some heartaches when things don't go as planned.
Bees make up their own plans as they go and will most likely both surprise you and cancel your original plan.
Bee flexible, go with the flow, and you'll have a blast. Remember to have fun.

AB


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

msl said:


> Good luck to you!
> 
> I am good at devils advocate, so I am going to take a shot here, please take it as constructive.
> 
> ...


MSL, Thank you very much for your response. I really appreciate each point.

If I need to register as a CSA, pay sales tax and set up an urban ag permit I will.
I am trying to figure out exactly how Community Funded classifies the donations and rewards in regards to the recipient. If they are classified as a product sale I expect you are absolutely correct. If they legally separate the donations from the rewards or classify them as something other than a direct sale there may be a chance that I do not have to become a CSA. I will stop by their office today or tomorrow and have it broken down to me. 

I have done a community funded project in the past and have been a part of other campaigns though a business class at CSU and I do not remember any requirement to register a business, pay sales tax after the campaign ended. It may have been required and we were simply uninformed. I don't know, but I will find out.

Assuming that I did not sell directly make sales I am/was under the impression that I do not need any specific licensing requirements if sales/yr are under $5,000. In the link you provided ( http://cofarmtomarket.com/value-added-products/honey/ ) there is this: 
"Licensing: If you are selling raw, unprocessed honey comb you have produced, no specific licensing requirements. Unprocessed honey comb is considered a raw agricultural product and is exempt from licensing requirements of the Colorado Retail Food Protection Act."
That was right above the quote you linked. These quotes were are under the tab for those selling at a farmers market, CSA, roadside stand, or directly to consumer outlet. If I were to only sell raw comb and directly to consumer would I not need licensing?

I also read that if I operate as a Cottage food operation I do not need a license or permit if sales are less than 5k.

"the Colorado Legislature enacted Senate Bill 12-048 allowing individuals to sell certain types of “cottage food” products in an unlicensed home kitchen. This bill was modified during the 2013 legislative session by House Bill 13- 1158. "

"Cottage food operations require no license or permit from the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment and are not inspected by any state or local government entity. Net sales for each product produced by a cottage food operation must not exceed $5,000 annually. Products must be sold directly by the cottage food operator to the end consumer."
https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sites/default/files/Reg_DEHS_CottageFoodsAct_Brochure.pdf 


I can see that I man need an ag permit from the city as you linked, but again that depends on weather or not I have sold anything yet. Fort Collins requires that you do not exceed 2 hives if you have 1/4 acre or less, that you have a fly barrier and that you have a water source. 

Lastly about the honey description... Would the honey produced be organic and pesticide free if i did not feed via sugar water and did not do mite treatments? As for the GMO I can't think of any way to guarantee that. I now regret making that statement. Would you advise that I contact all donors and explain that I cannot guarantee Organic, non GMO, Pesticide free honey? I do not want be vulnerable to any legal issues and I am not sure how to revoke that statement. I also want to feed throughout the year and treat for mites routinely.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Dillonmartin1 said:


> I also read that if I operate as a Cottage food operation I do not need a license or permit if sales are less than 5k.


the up dated laws are 10k, per product type ie 10k for Liquid honey, +10K for cut comb ( comb chunks in the jar with liquid)+10K for creamed +10k for comb honey  

The rub is as I stated


> Do to the way you are doing things (internet sales/shipping honey)


 you don't qualify as cottage food, it can't be sold threw the internet, can't be shipped, cant cross the state line. It has to be a face to face thing 



Dillonmartin1 said:


> I can see that I man need an ag permit from the city as you linked, but again that depends on weather or not I have sold anything yet.


You HAVE made sales, you took peoples money.

The long and short of it is there are a lot of laws and rules set to to stop exactly what your trying to pull...... the MAN wants his cut
getting a caught....that's a different story


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

msl said:


> You HAVE made sales, you took peoples money.


Your right.... There is no way around it. I have made sales and owe taxes on them. 
It is overwhelmingly evident that I need all the licensing to sell honey that I produce. 

Last idea and I promise to drop it and begin the process. What if I were to buy honey, use that honey to give to the donors and then only sell honey I produce as a cottage food face to face, or just keep it all? I would prefer to be set up as a CSA to be able to sell to a larger market but I don't know if I will be able to afford all the licensing fees and can't guarantee I will get approval for an urban ag permit. I will need to talk to community funded to ensure this would not violate their terms of agreement. 

I have taken off Friday to get this sorted out with the city/county, FDA, CDR and colorado SOS. 
I am in for a ride on this one : ) 

Again, Thank you.


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## Dillonmartin1 (Mar 14, 2017)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> Welcome, from your neck of the woods. Good Luck with your obsession, and hopefully you can draw upon your experiences from helping your friend.


Thank you. I will undoubtably be learning from the wisdom of others this year and those to follow. 



msl said:


> Good luck to you!


So I spoke with the head of the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment today. I can operate as a cottage food operation if I buy honey and use that to ship to donors that participated online and out of state. I am also waiting back on a call from the city of Fort Collins to find out if I need a permit. I also am now registered for a Food Safety course in Longmont April 22nd. 




aunt betty said:


> It's a rocky road so measure the depth of the water prior to diving in head first.
> I think you'll do fine if you don't mind a little hard work and some heartaches when things don't go as planned.
> Bees make up their own plans as they go and will most likely both surprise you and cancel your original plan.
> Bee flexible, go with the flow, and you'll have a blast. Remember to have fun.
> ...


Thank you. I will be focusing on sustaining a healthy population for the 8 hives this first year. I will work on catching swarms but I will leave splitting hives and queen rearing for a later date. Although I do not know how rocky the road may be, I will undoubtedly be open to its unexpected turns, give it my heart, go with the flow and of course have fun : )

Lastly, I am nearly finished building the 6 hives. I only need to make 6 more deeps for feeders and paint. Additionally I got a call from a woman whose daughter cut ties with her mid winter and left a hive she was taking care of. She sealed off the hive during the winter, and having done so, killed the colony. I helped the mother collect the honey and will be using her empty hive as a swarm box for the next few months.


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