# great new Opportunity need advice on capitalization?



## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

What are you exactly looking to accomplish?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

bendriftin said:


> I am looking for crops with low water use, high value for cattle or soil usage


clovers... nothing new about that, your project is what?

perhaps you should talk to your local ag extentions office. loads of information there


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Haraga said:


> What are you exactly looking to accomplish?


sounds like to make a happy place,


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## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

When I was young everyone allowed their hay to bloom a little. Weeds and flowers were in every unused space. Ast I look around today things have changed greatly. Now you spray every acre of crop land to keep weeds out, you disc up the corners if irrigated with center pivots to control weeds and to keep things looking good. We have changed our crops so that they do not produce as much honey as they use to. As well as created pest killing chemicals that become absorbed into the plants to maximize yield. I am not bashing these practices because I understand them. I live them. Yet their is better way and I understand the niches in the system to see where the change in many practices can be beneficial to many people not just the farmer or rancher. I want to exploit these things but do not know who to contact or how to do it. I know I can seed range land to help bees and ranchers, but how to I educate the rancher when they think they have to starve a profit in a cow. How do I educate the farmer that if they plant this on the edges of their field they not only control the wild grass that propagates disease in their wheat but also make a dollar or too with it. Monoculture farming is what feeds the world, but I think I can tweak it a little how do I get the either the money to prove it and/or the scientist to do it?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

your not,


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Did not the US GVT already try this in the 50's? The same things they planted are now classified as noxious invasive weed species in many locations. Please don't try to be an overzealous environmentalist wannabe looking to create the "greater good" if that's your mission. I've noticed that these "projects" are rarely ever self sustaining in the long run. May I asked: What is it that you have come across that hasn't already been studied or tried?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

in the 1950's my dad planted red clover mostly mix on the wetter ground and alfalfa mix on the dryer ground, this was usda/co-op extention's recommendation. it was pretty good for bees. in the 1980's we figured out that harvesting forage before bloom [sad bees] resulted in forage with lower fiber and much higher protein [happy cows, farmer stays in business]. I think this area has been researched half to death. we have also figured out that the other legumes in the mix do not add to forage quality or tonnage. for much of our feed supply pasture is obsolete. it is now mostly for organic, this fad has peaked I think, I am a dairy equipment dealer that also works on refrigerated milk product trailers. due to supply and demand, organic milk is not profitable at this time despite reduced supply. regular milk which has exactly the same lab test specs. has never been much better for half a century. a move to more pasture on a large scale is not likely soon.


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## The Redneck Hippie (Mar 29, 2014)

I think you need to start by learning more. You say you've lived it, but it doesn't show in your words. For instance, as Masethonequip said, bloomed hay is not good hay. For a plant to support a flower, it has to toughen up it's main stem by incorporating a lot of lignin into it. Lignin is indigestible fiber. Not much if any nutritional value there. So bloomed hay = lots of lignin = less nutritional value = less $$ it'll sell for. If you've lived this, you would know that.

You also need to learn more about the people. You won't get very far with this kind of attitude:


> ...how to I educate the rancher when they think they have to starve a profit in a cow. How do I educate the farmer that if they plant this on the edges of their field they not only control the wild grass that propagates disease in their wheat but also make a dollar or too with it.


Ranchers don't "starve a profit into a cow". Any rancher knows a starved cow produces nothing - no calves, no milk, no meat. You coming to a rancher thinking you can "educate" them when you think they starve their cows? You won't get very far at all. You'll be lucky to get past the front ranch gate. 

And what plant will not propagate disease like grass does? Sharpshooters, one of the main vectors of disease, live in MANY kinds of plants, so planting something other than grass likely won't do a thing to control them. Killing the grass and weeds and leaving bare ground is one of the cheapest, more sure things that will. Again, if you've lived this, you would know that. But you don't know that, so when you talk about some miracle plant that will make them money while avoiding disease, it comes off as ignorant and ****y at the same time, as if you are telling them you are so much smarter than them. Not a good way to approach someone you want to "help". Not a good way to approach someone at all actually.

I am glad you want to help, but I've seen so many people try to jump in and help when they know little or nothing about the subject. All that does is do more damage. I am in a unique position where I span both the agricultural world and the environmental one, and have seen this over and over again. I live on 50 acres of the original 500+ acre cattle ranch I grew up on. I have raised cattle among other things here, just like my father before me. I believe wholeheartedly in organics and sustainability - I am a horticulturist at a local organic-only nursery where I get paid to help teach people how and why to garden organically. Again, I live in both worlds and see exactly where they clash. I can tell you that the non-agricultural types who listen to PETA's lines then charge in saying, "Da-da-DUUMMM! *HERE* I am to save the *DAAAAAYYY!!!*" don't get very far with country people, and are a big part of the problem. I am all for the message of environmentalism, but when someone has approached me like that, and they have more than once, I've just escorted them to the other side of my front gate, locked it, and went back home.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

let us know in 5 yrs how ya make out.


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## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

Ok, I apologize for my ignorance evidently. I just figured that when I worked on a 4500 head cattle ranch and the cows had a body condition score of 3-4 at calving time and they were feeding lick tubs as there primary source of protein that they did not understand nutrition. The primary feed source was potatoes and straw, but I guess we all know that it has a ton of protein. Grass when green and growing has many different nutritional contents but it is not growing at calving time and therefore has very little. Even out good grama grass when dried down has about half the protein as when it is growing. So when a rancher has cattle in a less than desirable body condition score and feeding a predominately energy feed without protein and expecting the protein to come from dry water grass and lick tubs this leads me to think that they are not that well educated. Secondly I have worked for ranchers whom feed nothing but alfalfa hay and wondered why they had major scours issues. I have seen ranchers in Nebraska whom feed high nitrate hay due putting liquid pig manure on there fields and wonder why after feeding that plus 3 pounds of corn per head per day that the cattle were not gaining weight and some were even dying. Now Please excuse me for being ****y, but I know how to drill water wells, I know how to do electrical work, weld, run cattle and many other things as well as know a little about bees. Now What I don't know is how you take someone who can't see past the end of their nose to improve the conditions on their own place for the welfare of their own cattle and or crops. For instance I suggested growing some Kosha weed. It is something like 19-23 percent protein, chop it for ensilage and feed it with the straw and potatoes. Do you think they listened to me, hell know. Now I apologize because my grammer and spelling may infer that I am not educated, and I will admit that I am not very well educated. However, I am good at seeing that their is a bigger picture to things. I know for instance that some plant produce protein in abundance, some produce energy, some produce pollen and some produce honey. What I do not know is the place to find this information, so therefore I tried to turn to this board. I do know that if you grow sweet clover as a cover crop you can return as much as 100 units of nitrogen to the soil. Nitrogen is one of the largest expenses in fertilizer. What I do not know is if there is a way to make all of these things come together and if their are any government programs to help. I know that with CRP they do have a pollinator mix. Yet can a person change that pollinator mix to have say sweet clover in it so that when he discs it under he gets the benefit of the nitrogen????


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## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

I guess I did not make my point clear enough before, I figured I was talking to beekeepers not ranchers and farmers. So I have a farmer who is also a rancher. He is willing to work with me. I want to plant things to help his operation, such as green manure crops to increase crop residue and build soil as well as add to the nitrogen content of his soil, yet be beneficial to bees. I want to plant something in his pastures so that when they are grazed in the fall or winter they still maintain protein and energy, when grazed during the summer months they will produce calves that are 800 pounds at weining. yet remain good for bees. Is this possible and if so are there any government programs to make it happen.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Ok, I'll bite. What was the name of the 4500 head cattle ranch you worked on?


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

bendriftin said:


> I guess I did not make my point clear enough before, I figured I was talking to beekeepers not ranchers and farmers. So I have a farmer who is also a rancher. He is willing to work with me. I want to plant things to help his operation, such as green manure crops to increase crop residue and build soil as well as add to the nitrogen content of his soil, yet be beneficial to bees. I want to plant something in his pastures so that when they are grazed in the fall or winter they still maintain protein and energy, when grazed during the summer months they will produce calves that are 800 pounds at weining. yet remain good for bees. Is this possible and if so are there any government programs to make it happen.


If you work on a 4500 head cattle ranch, He _*is*_ the government subsidy for you. Have him buy your idea, sell a hundred head and fund your project. My tax dollars are subsidizing far too much now. G


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

bendriftin said:


> Is this possible and if so are there any government programs to make it happen.



As noted in other posts I am sure most people on here are not against you accomplishing your goal...Albeit we wish it was sans your quest of even considering putting your grubby paws in the public trough to make it happen. If you had proposed this idea with only your own personal funds on the line I bet you would have had 100% support on here to go ahead and try.

Your fatal mistake was failing to realize that most of the frequently contributing beeks that are pro public finance funding on almost any issue are a rare bird in the Beesource flock. So much so that in a lot of instances that would extend even to the point of cutting off our nose regarding important bee research in order to maintain a free market libertarian bent. 

If you are able to find a way to proceed towards your goal I do have a hard time seeing how you will even come close to recouping your investment. With bees crossing fence lines I doubt the bee $ will be available for any transfer payment system you imagine.

As my wife often asks... "Where is the money for that going to come from?"


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bendriftin said:


> When I was young everyone allowed their hay to bloom a little. Weeds and flowers were in every unused space. Ast I look around today things have changed greatly. Now you spray every acre of crop land to keep weeds out, you disc up the corners if irrigated with center pivots to control weeds and to keep things looking good. We have changed our crops so that they do not produce as much honey as they use to. As well as created pest killing chemicals that become absorbed into the plants to maximize yield. I am not bashing these practices because I understand them. I live them. Yet their is better way and I understand the niches in the system to see where the change in many practices can be beneficial to many people not just the farmer or rancher. I want to exploit these things but do not know who to contact or how to do it. I know I can seed range land to help bees and ranchers, but how to I educate the rancher when they think they have to starve a profit in a cow. How do I educate the farmer that if they plant this on the edges of their field they not only control the wild grass that propagates disease in their wheat but also make a dollar or too with it. Monoculture farming is what feeds the world, but I think I can tweak it a little how do I get the either the money to prove it and/or the scientist to do it?


A short simple well worded message would be a good start. Not a bumper sticker, just something short, sweet, and simple, easily understood and well thought out.

Right now, it seems, your message is not getting through. But this may be a good place to refine things. Keep going.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bendriftin said:


> I guess I did not make my point clear enough before, I figured I was talking to beekeepers not ranchers and farmers. So I have a farmer who is also a rancher. He is willing to work with me. I want to plant things to help his operation, such as green manure crops to increase crop residue and build soil as well as add to the nitrogen content of his soil, yet be beneficial to bees. I want to plant something in his pastures so that when they are grazed in the fall or winter they still maintain protein and energy, when grazed during the summer months they will produce calves that are 800 pounds at weining. yet remain good for bees. Is this possible and if so are there any government programs to make it happen.


I don't know.

What does this farmer want to do? You say he is willing to work w/ you. Does this mean on your free time you have permission to do what you think will be beneficial to reach your personal goal? Or is he willing to spend his own capital and resources backing up your plan or venture?


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't know.
> 
> Or is he willing to spend his own capital and resources backing up your plan or venture?


_*EXACTLY*_
Im sure the reason he has said "go ahead Grasshopper find a way......" has something to do with the fact that he has probably already squeezed the free money tree of the federal government to the limit. Which by the way was probably way more than it should have been...... G


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

I find it interesting that the ones that don't own the land often have the big ideas how to make things better. I can only assume its because they have the extra time on their hands.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

bendriftin said:


> I just figured that when I worked on a 4500 head cattle ranch and the cows had a body condition score of 3-4 at calving time and they were feeding lick tubs as there primary source of protein that they did not understand nutrition.


right....

4500 head and he has no idea what he is doing... maybe its the onlooker not knowing what he is seeing?
bendrifting, right from the start your whole "idea" has been the all fuzzy type and in the clouds. Bring some reality to the issue and you've got nothing more than whats already being done

why have you not checked out your local agricultural extensions office? that is where you will find all the information you need, its all there...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think I understand bendriftin's interest.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to give him a simple straight answer.

For example, in my travels while researching soybeans, I've seen that they make both good forage and green manure.

As far as Honeybees go, canola should be in the mix, as well as similar soil building crops.

Also, there is the CRP pollinator program.

I would encourage you to keep researching the topic and asking questions.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

WLC said:


> Also, there is the CRP pollinator program.


Say what?!? :scratch: :s

_Bendriftin _is looking for ideas for enhancing PASTURE land for grazing farm animals. CRP programs do not allow grazing of stock ...



> In exchange for a yearly rental payment, farmers enrolled in the program agree to remove environmentally sensitive land from agricultural production ...
> 
> http://www.fsa.usda.gov/FSA/webapp?area=home&subject=copr&topic=crp


That would preclude grazing by farm animals, or harvesting a crop of any kind.


:gh:

... straight answer ...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

"I am looking for crops with low water use, high value for cattle or soil usage and a way to finance this project. "

I thought he wanted to provide forage for Honeybees while raising cattle.

Give him time. He'll start figuring things out.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

"I am looking for crops with low water use, high value for cattle or soil usage and a way to finance this project. "

clover... whats new about this?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It's not. He just needs to get to the ag extension office, work on articulating what he wants to do, then get funding.

By the way, hairy vetch seems to be more popular in organic circles than clover for the purposes he's stating.

But, it might not be good for Honeybees on its own.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

we use vetch's in our pastures,
seems not very attractive to the bees but they are probably prefering the alfalfa, clover and canola which blooms at the same time. Cows eat it, but much prefer grass, as they will eat around it and then eat the vetch after the grass is grazed.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

There are many folks in history that could repeat the phrase "Been there ....done that...." on this subject. As history has shown a truly effective wake up call on this subject would ring loudly enough where the proponents realize that the only protein anyone is likely to get from beating this horse to death once again are the vultures who will come do the cleanup during the mop up phase.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

legumes are usually avoided in tame pastures because of the problems bloating causes. Our wild pastures have a natural sprinkling of these plants which make good pasture. So in our tame pastures we try to add the legumes, but not to the point where they will cause problems


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

There it is. Bendriftin now has the basics.

Although I can't help but think that he was looking for something with more pizzazz.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Saguache looks like it's in an arid area.

I don't think that canola, etc., are in the cards.

Oh well.


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## ginkgo (Apr 26, 2013)

Pollinator Partnership https://pollinator.org/index.html may be of interest to the OP. 

They have a farming and ranching section, with extensive references, best practices, specific farmers and ranchers using pollinator-friendly techniques, links to other organizations, etc.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bendriftin said:


> Ok, I apologize for my ignorance evidently. I just figured that when I worked on a 4500 head cattle ranch and the cows had a body condition score of 3-4 at calving time and they were feeding lick tubs as there primary source of protein that they did not understand nutrition. The primary feed source was potatoes and straw, but I guess we all know that it has a ton of protein. Grass when green and growing has many different nutritional contents but it is not growing at calving time and therefore has very little. Even out good grama grass when dried down has about half the protein as when it is growing. So when a rancher has cattle in a less than desirable body condition score and feeding a predominately energy feed without protein and expecting the protein to come from dry water grass and lick tubs this leads me to think that they are not that well educated. Secondly I have worked for ranchers whom feed nothing but alfalfa hay and wondered why they had major scours issues. I have seen ranchers in Nebraska whom feed high nitrate hay due putting liquid pig manure on there fields and wonder why after feeding that plus 3 pounds of corn per head per day that the cattle were not gaining weight and some were even dying. Now Please excuse me for being ****y, but I know how to drill water wells, I know how to do electrical work, weld, run cattle and many other things as well as know a little about bees. Now What I don't know is how you take someone who can't see past the end of their nose to improve the conditions on their own place for the welfare of their own cattle and or crops. For instance I suggested growing some Kosha weed. It is something like 19-23 percent protein, chop it for ensilage and feed it with the straw and potatoes. Do you think they listened to me, hell know. Now I apologize because my grammer and spelling may infer that I am not educated, and I will admit that I am not very well educated. However, I am good at seeing that their is a bigger picture to things. I know for instance that some plant produce protein in abundance, some produce energy, some produce pollen and some produce honey. What I do not know is the place to find this information, so therefore I tried to turn to this board. I do know that if you grow sweet clover as a cover crop you can return as much as 100 units of nitrogen to the soil. Nitrogen is one of the largest expenses in fertilizer. What I do not know is if there is a way to make all of these things come together and if their are any government programs to help. I know that with CRP they do have a pollinator mix. Yet can a person change that pollinator mix to have say sweet clover in it so that when he discs it under he gets the benefit of the nitrogen????


Would you mind repeating that? I'm not sure I understand. And can you make your pitch in 25 words or fewer. You lost me at "they did not understand nutrition." 

Being a member of the slow readers of America is not really the problem as much as it is scanning back across the page and trying to match up w/ the next word in the sentence. Try sticking a paragraph every other line or two regardless. Thanks.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

There is a lot of truth to that Mark. It's not about dumbing anything down but rather conveying the message. 

Many people approach me to talk bees. I watch them as we talk an notice after about 2 min their eyes glaze over...

Now, I'm able to hold peoples attention for quite a while. In fact, I just presented to a large group of kids and adults for 1 1/2 hrs and held their attention the entire time, and fielded questions for another 1/2 hr. 

It's not about presenting things short form or dumbing things down. It's about expressing your ideas in ways other find interesting and able to understand. 

This topic could use a lesson on that ! Lol


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Michael Bush has a great post (made into a "sticky" at the top of the _Beekeeping 101_ forum) on how to write an _effective post_: 

_*Advice on how to post a topic on a forum to elicit useful responses
*_


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Amen Ian. And I had no trouble reading every word of your Post. Well written and well laid out.

If someone is going into a movie studio executive's office to pitch an idea for a movie, if that pitch is any longer than 5 sentences they get cut off, thanked and shown the door. Think about it.

If "No" is sufficient, why go into a lengthy explanation? Unless called for.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Michael Bush has a great post (made into a "sticky" at the top of the _Beekeeping 101_ forum) on how to write an _effective post_:
> 
> _*Advice on how to post a topic on a forum to elicit useful responses
> *_


That was real nice what Michael wrote. Had he bullet pointed it, it would have been better, for me.


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## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

I would like to thank WLC and Ginko, that is the kind of thing I was trying to get to.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

If you think this feed back was harsh, just wait til you start spending someone else's money.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Ian:

He's trying to make something work in an arid environment without irrigation.

I can tell from the type of irrigation being used in the satellite image.

I'd say that it's outside of your experience.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

If you could find some native prairie or plant a large swath, it would produce great pollen sources, lots of nectar throughout the entire season, and it useful for cattle grazing. 

Native prairies were reknown for their biodiversity and their insect life. I do believe it was Aldo Leopold that said he could hardly think when visiting one of the native prairies in early summer due to the noise of the insects there pollinating everything. 

As for forage, those areas feed bison herds (yea they moved, but still can still provide great forage and great pollination buffet for insects) plus the build the soil better than anything. They will feed cattle but are harder to manage.

http://vimeo.com/80518559 

Not saying it is the way to go, but sometimes what was here originally is some amazing stuff. You might want to look into it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

WLC said:


> I'd say that it's outside of your experience.


Lol

Good luck bendriften telling those ranchers what they ought to be doing


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ian said:


> Lol
> 
> Good luck bendriften telling those ranchers what they ought to be doing


Ian, I think I understand where you are coming from. Less of what is not being discussed is outside of your experience than some saying so. If that makes sense.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It looks to me like bendriftin is in high plains, center pivot irrigation country.

I don't know what the drought situation is like there though.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> Ian, I think I understand where you are coming from. Less of what is not being discussed is outside of your experience than some saying so. If that makes sense.


There is a saying, "don't tell someone who is DOING the job, wrong, until you actually DO the job yourself"

Lots of smart people out there, lord knows we need another environmental activist telling ranchers how to feed cattle...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Wow. Now you're a high plains rancher.

The fact is, we don't know what his conditions are like.

Not for beekeeping or cattle.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I have family who ranch on dry lands, these are true ranchers, my experience is more than you realize... And you pointing that out in your high rise apartment ...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Ian, I thought you were the Prime Minister?

Bendriftin is in an area that has some very specific challenges that I doubt most of us can fully comprehend.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Clovers


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Typically dry land ranchers use what ever grows naturally over the land. They like seeing grass grow...


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Ian didnt you know one could solve all agricultural problems by driving accross Long Island and talking to an agricultural extension officer in New Jersey?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

vance g.. on the real tough questions somebody in Washington can tell you to call someone else in Washington, then there is the internet with new York city web sites also. the folks in new York city are great with organic sustainable enviormentalism.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Gee fellas, then maybe you have experience in keeping Honeybees and raising cattle in that part of Colorado.

I don't think 'clover' is much of an answer.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

WLC said:


> I'd say that it's outside of your experience.


It would pay dividends if you heeded your own advice.
Drop it. You are out of your league here.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Have any of you kept both cattle and bees in that part of Colorado?

Once I looked up bendriftin's location, I basically said, ' He's got to be kidding.'


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> The fact is, we don't know what his conditions are like.


We who? You got a mouse in your pocket? Other people other than you may well have vast amounts of experience unbeknown to you or any of us. Why not ask rather than tell? What experience and knowledge do you, WLC, have on the subject at hand, beyond what you can call up on a computer?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> Have any of you kept both cattle and bees in that part of Colorado?
> 
> Once I looked up bendriftin's location, I basically said, ' He's got to be kidding.'


Who? Ben? Then why didn't you say so to him rather than Ian? Oh, man. Why? Barry, why?


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

Without reading everything that has been written it sounds like you are attempting something closer to organic and sustainable farming then what the farmers you are talking about want to do. 

There is no question that farmers can move away from a myriad of chemicals and processes thru learning other more "Natural" methods of farming. Crop rotation, grassing methods, companion crops and on and on and on. The problem is that with the current cost of fossil fuels, meaning fertilizers, for the most part it is a less economical approach then current "Modern" methods. 

What you may gain in one area you tend to lose in another. 

Not saying it's not possible, in fact most of what I see you listing here is in practice by many local small farmers, they just aren't running 4500 head of cattle...45 maybe. 

Energy is king and as long as fossil fuel in the form of fertilizer, gasoline and other forms is less expensive then labor and time more then likely many of these approaches will be uneconomical on a large scale. 

~Matt


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

While we don't have the details, it wouldn't be too difficult to estimate the seasonal carrying capacity of the local grazing available to cattle, the amount of forage available to Honeybees, and the amount of feed/forage available for cattle/honeybees on the pivot irrigated plots.

The devil is in the details.

Can we improve on what is already there in a cost effective way. Or, is it cheaper to simply buy feed or move livestock elsewhere.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

I think that is the basic problem when you approach something without the details. Often times what seems like a great idea is not workable. 

My guess is that if it were economical to do things a different way, especially in an area that is both widespread and certainly not new such as food production, that this new way would have been explored and being adapted. 

In a sector as large as food and with people from sole proprietors to massive corporations spending billions on figuring these issues out to attempt to squeeze out more profit, it's unlikely, however not impossible, for someone to come along with a "New idea" that will suddenly make everyone more money.

Again it sounds to me like what the OP is aiming at is more along the idea of "Sustainable" small farmers rather then the industrial food complex. My guess is that these smaller farmers are probably doing much of what he's thinking about and if anything this would be the group I would approach with his ideas, not the dude with the 4500 head of cattle. 

~Matt


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> While we don't have the details, it wouldn't be too difficult to estimate the seasonal carrying capacity of the local grazing available to cattle, the amount of forage available to Honeybees, and the amount of feed/forage available for cattle/honeybees on the pivot irrigated plots.
> 
> The devil is in the details.
> 
> Can we improve on what is already there in a cost effective way. Or, is it cheaper to simply buy feed or move livestock elsewhere.


If what Ben thinks he wants to try is something that can work, either it will or it won't. No where in this Thread is there enough detailed information of what that is or under what conditions that may be tried for us here to be able to give a meaningful and effective answer to Ben.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

WLC said:


> I don't think 'clover' is much of an answer.


You dont know much about clover then, quick, google search it WLC, but reading about clover will not bring you as close to understanding it until you have actually experienced it.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Clover, it's a lawn weed, and it's a forage!

Like most of us already know, we don't have enough information.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, for sure some of us don't. Come up to the North Country and I will show you three different clovers. All of which produce nectar and have been major honey plants for a couple of centuries.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Clovers (primarily white Dutch) are intentionally planted with grasses as a companion because it helps fulfill the nitrogen requirements that grasses need. They are also great forage and make an excellent high protein hay.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Bendriftin:

You want to be a consultant, but you are starting out on a false premise. You seem to think that if you and a college student and maybe a professor huddle up together and design a feeding and planting program that will benefit the cattle, bees and the environment that you will be paid for this. Yes, you can be paid and maybe paid well for this information. I currently have somewhere between 15 and 20 thousand dollars of revenue on 40 head of mother cows. Now if you could come with a planting and plowing program that would increase my earning then I would be willing to share the increase with you. If I could follow your procedures and earn another 100 bucks per head I would be willing to split it with you. But, you have to provide the information to me. I'm not going to help do the research and I don't want to pay you to learn. I only want to pay when you can give me specific guide lines that will increase my earnings.

The fellow that you worked for that had 4,500 cows could pay you a couple hundred grand a year if you could bump his income by a hundred bucks per head. You seem to want to be paid before you have the education.

I'm an engineer and sometimes design plans for drilling and completing hostile environment gas wells. I provide the permitting, drilling, completion and final reporting for the project. As we say, "from conception to resurrection." My final document is a complete "how to" document. It is a recipe. That's what people are looking for in a consultant.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Great advice LS.


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## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

I know about clover, we have clover in some pastures it thrives. Clover can cause bloat if there is more than 25% in a pasture, sanfoin is another alternative but like one person said that he saw the cattle graze around it and leave it for last. Well they do not take in there daily requirement of protein then. So that is way I was wanting ideas. 

I liked the idea of praire pasture and the related link. That is the forward thinking that I am looking for. Where I live, 10 years ago, if you told a farmer that he should not plant a circle in potatoes and plant a green manure crop you would have been laughed at. Things change, right now is the time to seed that change. So this is why I was looking for someone who could add some validity to what I believe could be a healthy relationship between beekeepers,farmers and ranchers. Some people are stubborn and think that what they did 20 years ago will work just as well as today. LS can probably relate to this. I am sure there somewhere in his drilling protocols he has written about when you have lost circulation that at a certain point you should send a sweep of LCM and trip out a few stands of pipe and wait. Somewhere there is always a company man that things he knows best and instead of following protocol send sweep after sweep and just keep drilling losing more money and time than he should have.

People are funny, Due to there first impression of my post they believe me to be a ****y idiot saying that the ranchers and farmers know best, that it has all been done before, and that there is countless examples. Yet I hear Clover, Clover and guess what clover time and time again. What about Vetch or something else. For people that know so much how come no one has said anything about plants that may satisfy energy requirements. I was hoping to learn something about an area I am deficient in and thought that people here may have some useful information to share but for the most part all I got were a few commits that had anything useful.

Now here is the thing, If I can figure out plants that have similar palatablity as the grass the cattle are grazing they will add protein and/or energy to the mix the rancher will have stronger calves, increased conception rates and probably higher weaning weights. These means more money for them. I am one to want to have my cake and eat it too so I want to find the plants that will provide nectar or honey as well.

I won't go on into the whole agricultural side.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

-- deleted --


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Well Bendriftin, it appears you have either worked in the oil patch or researched it well. Your drilling example is OK. 

What I said to you was that, you and you alone have to acquire this specific knowledge about the plants that are beneficial to cattle, bees and the land. In addition you have to be able to sell your ideas to the land owner. It will take you time to acquire your information, and it may take a longer time to establish a reputation of success. And as soon as you are successful the imitators will read your information and become your competition. You are several years away from making your plan work. You are working toward an admirable goal, but you are way behind on the learning curve.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Birdsfoot trefoil 
Non bloat 
High protein
Grazing resistant
Has flowers
But like I say, cattle will graze around it til last.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

bendriftin said:


> I know about clover, we have clover in some pastures it thrives. Clover can cause bloat if there is more than 25% in a pasture, .


Why do you want more than 25% clover ? We will use 5% blend into our pasture mix , the rest being grass, as grass is the best grazing plant for cattle. 
If your cows have grass, and a mix if clover into that pasture, all should be beaming with happiness, right ? 

And we are going for that natural look, right? Win win win. 

Do what I do, buy a bag of a clover blend , add a handful every time you fill the seeder when sewing a tame grass pasture. It will be on the land forever.

This topic is like a beekeeper asking " I see my employer feeding HFCS, and think there must be a better way." To which someone in the crowd says, " you could use sucrose, or go old school and leave honey on the hive". To which the response is "ya I know about sucrose and honey, but looking for something better..."


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

Ian said:


> Birdsfoot trefoil
> Non bloat
> High protein
> Grazing resistant
> ...


low tonnage yield


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Here are a couple pictures from the McIntyre ranch today. Flowers everywhere. Is that what this thread is originally about?


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## robb2k (Jul 1, 2014)

bendriftin said:


> When I was young everyone allowed their hay to bloom a little. Weeds and flowers were in every unused space. Ast I look around today things have changed greatly. Now you spray every acre of crop land to keep weeds out, you disc up the corners if irrigated with center pivots to control weeds and to keep things looking good. We have changed our crops so that they do not produce as much honey as they use to. As well as created pest killing chemicals that become absorbed into the plants to maximize yield. I am not bashing these practices because I understand them. I live them. Yet their is better way and I understand the niches in the system to see where the change in many practices can be beneficial to many people not just the farmer or rancher. I want to exploit these things but do not know who to contact or how to do it. I know I can seed range land to help bees and ranchers, but how to I educate the rancher when they think they have to starve a profit in a cow. How do I educate the farmer that if they plant this on the edges of their field they not only control the wild grass that propagates disease in their wheat but also make a dollar or too with it. Monoculture farming is what feeds the world, but I think I can tweak it a little how do I get the either the money to prove it and/or the scientist to do it?


My thoughts are that monocropping is starving the world.


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## robb2k (Jul 1, 2014)

Ian said:


> Birdsfoot trefoil
> Non bloat
> High protein
> Grazing resistant
> ...


They won't if the farmer mimmicks how herbavores graze in the wild. They don't graze around one here, and one over there in the wild. Predators keep them in a tight pack, which forces the herbivores to eat everything underfoot and then trample it. This does 2 things, it forces the herbivore to get a more complete diet, and the manure load+leftover plant material are trampled into the ground for better soil health.

Farmers like Joel Salatin understand this and it is finally beginning to catch on. Not only are his cows healthy and not on antibiotics(they actually have an immune system), but he has produced 8 inches of soil in 40 years on his pastures. Whereas, monocropping and moving the cattle to feed lots results in an annual loss of 1/8th an inch of soil per year.

It's called rotational grazing. It works.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

The OP wanted to know where to get money for his project. 
Do like the rest of us and work hard, save up your money. Rent some dry corners and seed some test plots. Then the proof will be there for everyone to see. 
If the OP cannot provide solid evidence for a reasonable chance of success then a hand out may not be likely.


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## The Redneck Hippie (Mar 29, 2014)

bendriftin said:


> So this is why I was looking for someone who could add some validity to what I believe could be a healthy relationship between beekeepers,farmers and ranchers. ... People are funny, Due to there first impression of my post they believe me to be a ****y idiot saying that the ranchers and farmers know best, that it has all been done before, and that there is countless examples. ... For people that know so much how come no one has said anything about plants that may satisfy energy requirements. I was hoping to learn something about an area I am deficient in and thought that people here may have some useful information to share but for the most part all I got were a few commits that had anything useful


You want us to help you, but you come at us with an attitude of what we're doing is wrong and you know all the answers. That makes me, and apparently a few others, rather resistant to helping you. 



bendriftin said:


> Now here is the thing, If I can figure out plants that have similar palatablity as the grass the cattle are grazing they will add protein and/or energy to the mix the rancher will have stronger calves, increased conception rates and probably higher weaning weights.


Then ask that. Like this:


> Hi, all. Does anyone know of any bee-friendly cow-pasture forage plants? I have a farmer willing to help me experiment with cattle forages that do double duty as cattle feed and bee feed. Anyone know of any we can start with? I'm thinking sanfoin. Anyone have any experience with this as a cattle feed?


Not some wordy, difficult-to-read post that's so hard to find the meaning in that it comes off like this:


> I think I can do better than the ranchers and farmers who are starving their animals and monocropping the environment to death. I want to educate them in a better way. Anyone know where I can get some free money and free help? Btw, know of any good plants to start with?


Honey and vinegar, dude. Honey and vinegar.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

robb2k said:


> It's called rotational grazing. It works.


Rotational grazing works wonders on keeping pasture plant populations in tip top condition. And this management strategy very suited for Beekeepers as it allows the clovers to bloom year round.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ian said:


> Rotational grazing works wonders on keeping pasture plant populations in tip top condition. And this management strategy very suited for Beekeepers as it allows the clovers to bloom year round.


Clover, blooming in Manitoba, in January. Neat trick 

On a more serious note, for those of us that dont know much about this topic, a dumb question. On the new place, we did fix up a pasture out back this summer, cleared, levelled, fenced and seeded. It's fenced to keep bambi and yogi out, and seeded with a typical pasture mix, but we doubled up on the clover, specifically for bee forage. If I'm reading correctly what you posted above, would it enhance the pasture to have it grazed down over the summer ? I'm thinking specifically of putting the neighbors sheep in there for a month while our bees are up in the fireweed (mid july to mid august). In an ideal world, we'd have the clover blooming during september. That would reduce the tendancy to robbing, and give the bees a boost on winter stores.


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## robb2k (Jul 1, 2014)

grozzie2 said:


> Clover, blooming in Manitoba, in January. Neat trick
> 
> On a more serious note, for those of us that dont know much about this topic, a dumb question. On the new place, we did fix up a pasture out back this summer, cleared, levelled, fenced and seeded. It's fenced to keep bambi and yogi out, and seeded with a typical pasture mix, but we doubled up on the clover, specifically for bee forage. If I'm reading correctly what you posted above, would it enhance the pasture to have it grazed down over the summer ? I'm thinking specifically of putting the neighbors sheep in there for a month while our bees are up in the fireweed (mid july to mid august). In an ideal world, we'd have the clover blooming during september. That would reduce the tendancy to robbing, and give the bees a boost on winter stores.


It takes population density and a lot of management to rotationally graze. Very little infrastructure though. Typically, the farmer will move the herd(sheep do work very well) once or twice a day to a new paddock. All you need for the paddock is electric netting that is simple to move, or a single wire at the appropriate height. Sheep may be tougher for the single wire though, that coat they have is a good insulator.

If you just let the herd roam around the pasture picking and choosing the good stuff, the clover will be eaten very quickly. After a few rounds of the herd selecting only the tastiest things(like clover), it won't prosper and they will move on to their next favorite plant.

By rotational grazing, the herd is forced to not discriminate, they eat everything and then are moved to the next paddocks.


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## robb2k (Jul 1, 2014)

It really doesn't take long to move them, it's just the matter of doing it. You could move a nice sized herd in just a few minutes. So maybe the phrase "a lot of management" was too strong.

Once they use a paddock, it will look a mess, but in a month, it will be vibrant again. Amazing how fast something can come back when all the right things happen.

Another benefit is that even in a drought, the land will still come back. It has been compacted somewhat by the dense population on it and the hooves of the herd. All the material and manure dropped will eventually transform the earth into sort of a sponge. It will hold water but not be prone to flood, for a long time.


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## The Redneck Hippie (Mar 29, 2014)

grozzie2 said:


> If I'm reading correctly what you posted above, would it enhance the pasture to have it grazed down over the summer ? I'm thinking specifically of putting the neighbors sheep in there for a month while our bees are up in the fireweed (mid july to mid august).


Most likely yes. I'm not from your part of the world so if someone else from up your way posts something that is at odds with what I say, believe them instead of me. But in my experience, removing the top vegetative growth of a pasture whether by mowing, grazing it low, or burning it at the right time, helps it come back thicker and more healthy. Among other things, it gets sun right down to the ground level where seedlings can sprout unimpeded by shade of taller plants, and "prunes" perennial things so they come back bushier. 

This is provided you have the stocking rate right (enough sheep on a small enough plot to graze it all down before it has a chance to grow back). If your neighbor doesn't have many sheep and you have a lot of land, you may need to partition it into smaller pastures. Let them graze one pasture down, then move them to another. That's rotational grazing in a nutshell. Google that up, or talk to your neighbor - they likely know what needs to be done to accomplish what you want to do. 

And when you ask your neighbor about putting their sheep on your place, it'd be good to mention the doubling up on the clover in your seed mix in case it's too much for their sheep. They may want to walk the pasture, if they haven't already, to see what's out there.

Good luck! Wish I had a neighbor like you! Free grazing for my livestock? Nice.


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## robb2k (Jul 1, 2014)

That is a way better answer. I do know that before we came here and destroyed the prairies, the Indians conducted huge controlled burns. It was extremely beneficial to the health of the soil and plant life. 

There are letters from british scouts that say the grass is high enough to to tie in a knot above their saddles. That's probably about 10 feet high. 

There's even a place in Oklahoma(I think), where they have preserved a piece of prairie and the grass is about 12 feet tall.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

"Clover, blooming in Manitoba, in January. Neat trick "

Lol, meant season long


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

robb2k said:


> That is a way better answer. I do know that before we came here and destroyed the prairies, the Indians conducted huge controlled burns. It was extremely beneficial to the health of the soil and plant life.
> 
> There are letters from british scouts that say the grass is high enough to to tie in a knot above their saddles. That's probably about 10 feet high.
> 
> There's even a place in Oklahoma(I think), where they have preserved a piece of prairie and the grass is about 12 feet tall.


ya, in places. Here in the Red river valley, grasses grew that tall in the muskeg, muskeg that covered thousands of acres of land. Dont forget there were tremendous herds of Bison which ate the short grasses of the prairies. Herds over vast landscapes were natures way of rotational grazing the land. 
As try to mimic in our pasture environment, we see a lot of positive response from the grasses and clovers.


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## The Redneck Hippie (Mar 29, 2014)

robb2k said:


> I do know that before we came here and destroyed the prairies, the Indians conducted huge controlled burns. It was extremely beneficial to the health of the soil and plant life.


Yep. And Mother Nature set off fires regularly as well. Down here, it killed the scrub cedar seedlings so they couldn't get a foothold. When the settlers came, they saw fires as bad things so tried to fight them. Some learned better, and would burn their fields on purpose. I remember watching the men do that to our hay fields in very late winter, just before the spring green-up. A month after that, the grass would be _so_ green and lush.

Because of the droughts and "suburbanization" of the rural land, that practice has all but died out. Now we have scrub cedar infesting large swaths of acreage where it wasn't before, displacing the grasses. And the tall grasses have displaced the short ones, as has the invasive King Ranch Bluestem grass. 

Then there's the honey mesquite that was spread by grazing livestock - they eat the pods, then poop out the seeds, spreading it over a large area where it wouldn't have been able to be before it was so intensely grazed by cattle. All those seeds thrive since they're "planted" with a big old dollop of fertilizer right on top of them! My pastures have grown up these past few years since I've gotten out of the cattle business (drought made me throw in the towel), but now that I have bees I have a new appreciation for them (Can't fight 'em? Join 'em. :thumbsup.



> There are letters from british scouts that say the grass is high enough to to tie in a knot above their saddles. That's probably about 10 feet high.
> 
> There's even a place in Oklahoma(I think), where they have preserved a piece of prairie and the grass is about 12 feet tall.


Wow. Just wow!


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, here's something that should help bendriftin figure things out:

http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_MANUSCRIPTS/colorado/CO633/0/saguache.pdf

It's a soil survey.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Haraga said:


> The OP wanted to know where to get money for his project.
> Do like the rest of us and work hard, save up your money. Rent some dry corners and seed some test plots. Then the proof will be there for everyone to see.
> If the OP cannot provide solid evidence for a reasonable chance of success then a hand out may not be likely.


Really? Hand outs are what this country has focused on for the last 50+ years! Work hard? Save money? What's wrong with yo.............
Ooops-I just read the part about "do like the rest of us" You meant the rest of here on beesource. I thought you meant, you know, the rest of us in America. My bad.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

I hear you Challenger. It is quite a beg, borrow and steal culture we have become. In my area the farmer that has the most debt is looked at by the other farmers that are in debt as if he were the most successful farmer.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I don't know about other counties, but in my county in West Texas, we have a very active county agent. He has a monthly bus tour and takes farmers and ranchers to view how some of the other local agribusiness are operating. In addition, he keeps a list of short courses that are offered in our area. For the most part our local farm operations are running pretty well. The local water melon and cotton growers are constantly asking for bees for pollination. Of course, they don't want to pay what they're worth, but that's fine with me as I don't want to do pollination. This is just a side bar to let all of you know that our farmers recognize the value of bees. My bees at my home are working a water melon patch about 400 yards away, and there will be 120 acres of irrigated cotton about 400 yards in the opposite direction in about a month. I think a consultant would have a difficult time getting business in my immediate area. There may not be a market for Bendrifting's services. The big agriculture companies are going to get tons of free consulting from the big seed and chemical companies.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Although the soil survey for his county that I linked to is quite dated, I found it difficult not to come up with possible 'solutions' in a cold, high, and dry county after examining it briefly.

The funding source depends on the details since there are many agencies involved.


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