# "the complete idiot's...



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

GUIDE TO Beekeeping"

i finished reading dean's book this afternoon. 

it's one of the better primer's i've read, nice job dean and laurie.

of course, the author's biases are well represented throughout the book, 

(as would mine too if i were doing the writing  ).

have any of you had the chance to read it?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I lent it to someone before I read it and it never returned... The little I had seen of the book was enough for me to recommend it over the "Dummies" book (either edition). 

So there it is... having to choose, I'm with the Idiots!


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## bbbthingmaker (Sep 26, 2010)

I like it. A very good introduction to beekeeping. Mine is also loaned out at the moment.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have the Dummies, I have not yet seen the Idiots. At least the Dummies version was what I expected from such a book. good overall starter material but nothing to dig deeper into. I will say during this first year it has been constantly at my elbow as I set here at the computer. This winter I am starting to put together my own guide so by spring I may be able to give it away and never miss it.

My personal guide is going to be much more complex. it will not just include what a hive is it will have detailed info on every type of hive I can find and the pros and cons of each. Nobody woudl want my guide it will be way to much. For example it already contains just one 20 page Journal Artical comparing Inseminated queens to naturally mated queens. It also has files on 6 different queen breeders and every detail I can find on how they manager their apiaries. It has a file just on breeding nucs different types and the pros and cons of each.

I don't plan on being a Dummy or an Idiot for long. I am going to join the Collasal Boobs.

I want to find a copy of the idiots guide just so I know what it contains.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think it contains a lot of research, references, etc. Much like yours will. It's a book of facts designed to suit a particular philosophy, more so than the authors experience.
I say "I think", because I have only read snippets of it, I am still awaiting the arrival of my promised copy.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

There both for beginners either will tech you how to start . Good starter books. 
My favorite book to date is THE PRACTICAL BEEKEEPER lots of good stuff.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

If Idiot's guide is a good look into Deans principals on beekeeping then I have a secondary reason to read it. To include his ideas in my guide.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> I am still awaiting the arrival of my promised copy.


It's been quite a while. It must be on the sloooooww boat.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I think he lost that on a technicality, according to Dean.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> I think it contains a lot of research, references, etc. Much like yours will. It's a book of facts designed to suit a particular philosophy, more so than the authors experience.
> I say "I think", because I have only read snippets of it, I am still awaiting the arrival of my promised copy.


not many references cited, other than a handful of nods to the likes of lusby, bush, palmer, ect.

pm me your address oldtimer, and i'll gift order you one.

merry christmas from this side of the pond!


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I would encourage anyone serious about learning beekeeeping to go to the books like Langstroths The hive and the honeybee or Roots ABC and XYZ of beekeeping. Reading is nothing to be afraid of. The best of life, like meat, needs to be chewed to be enjoyed.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks for the tip vance. mike bush has a good bibliography on his site as well.

can't do it in a nutshell, but i will offer my personal take away from 'idiots',

with the disclaimor that what i am writing is only my view of what i received as dean's and laurie's views as presented in the book.

dean, please forgive me in advance, and correct me if anything i post is not a fair representation of what is in the book

on balance, i liked what i read, and i agree with most of the ideas put forward.

common themes presented are: treatment free, small cell, emergency feeding only, unlimited broodnest.

if i would have read this prior to getting bees, it would have taught me several things that i ended up figuring out the hard way.

and, i was able to glean a new pearl or two, or at least refine my thinking about things here and there.

there were a few things i came across, that i would like to throw out here for discussion, second opinions, real life experiences, ect.

beginning with my next post:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the first subject of interest is starting with one's first bees.

the book describes an approach that i had not previously heard about,

and that approach is going for small cell bees right out of the chute, by taking a package of bees and putting them on hsc (honey super cell), drawn plastic comb. 

the advice given is to find bees already treatment free and regressed to small cell, but since that is hard to do, find the best bees you can, buy them in package form with a queen, and put them directly onto the hsc.

for the new packages not already regressed, it puts the bees into a forced regression into small cell.

my question is, has anyone here tried that? if so, what were the results?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Haven't tried exactly that Squarepeg, but I've dumped normal bees onto drawn small cell comb on wax foundation, which works fine, long as the comb has had brood in it at some time so the cocoons stop the bees re-working the cell size



squarepeg said:


> pm me your address oldtimer, and i'll gift order you one.
> 
> merry christmas from this side of the pond!


 Hey Squarepeg you are a generous soul, but wow I can't let you do that, LOL! I may get carried away & actually buy myself a copy some time. (Under a false name, perhaps! )

And a Merry Christmas to you! 

And Beemandan and Barry, Wow you guys got amazing memories, whew! That was some thread wasn't it! Yikes kinda thought I'd left that behind in the ether somewhere, cringe thinking about it!


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

squarepeg said:


> has anyone here tried that? if so, what were the results?


Yes, I have put a 3# package in a 5 frame medium with hsc. It works well. My hsc is all dipped in wax and I filled some of it with syrup for the package. About a week later I added another box of hsc.

I have some hsc in service now, but haven't bought a package of bees in several years.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very cool bc. was it just this one package you did that way? have you tried the hsc with a package and not have it work?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

squarepeg said:


> very cool bc. was it just this one package you did that way? have you tried the hsc with a package and not have it work?


I actually only forced bees on the HSC the one time. A neighbor wanted a beehive so to make the bees uniform with my others they went onto the HSC. The Mann Lake "pf" frames are more practical. The acceptance of the HSC isn't a sure thing... But the wax coating of the HSC is *surely* a pain. 

Some have claimed successful acceptance by using only syrup... Some confine the bees for several days hoping that the queen will have laid, and that the bees won't abscond.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood. 'idiots' points out it may not be a sure thing. i was trying to get a feel for what a newbee might expect his/her chances of success to be with the forced regression. many thanks bc.

any others who have tried this?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

squarepeg said:


> understood. 'idiots' points out it may not be a sure thing. i was trying to get a feel for what a newbee might expect his/her chances of success to be with the forced regression. many thanks bc.
> 
> any others who have tried this?


no one? dean, can you help me out? (don't have to if you are busy as heck)

you have probably mentored many first-timers. what percentage of packages regress when forced onto the hsc?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

hmm, dean may be unable to answer.

mike bush has a good section on regression on his site, but doesn't mention dean's particular approach.

looks like bush advocates a more gradual regression.

(interestingly, bush thought lusby's shake out method may have been 'stressful' on the bees, and possibly the reason for so many early losses).


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

am i safe in assuming that ya'll aren't in a big hurry to shake out all your colonies onto honey super cell?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

In my case you're correct in assuming... I have no intention to regress. All I've read on small cell is that it really doesn't work. And I've had great success being treatment free on "large cell".
Regards,
Steven


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

same here steven, thanks for your reply.

i would have liked for the author to have joined the discussion, but i guess he his unable or unwilling to do so. i really wanted to give the benefit of the doubt...

i guess i'll wrap up what i have to say about my take on the book.

first, i feel like the subtitle "Everything the budding beekeeper needs for a healthy, productive hive" is, well, overstated. i could give examples, but i won't out of fairness to the author.

second, although there are no direct derogatory comments to the effect, a beginner reading this book could not help but come away from it thinking that the last thing in the world they would want to be is a beekeeper who feeds, uses standard size cells, or uses any kind of treatments.

with regards to no treatments, there is a slippery slope type comment that is similar to the treatment treadmill comment made by the ex-moderator of the tfb forum on this site, discouraging any use whatsoever of any kind of treatment.

interestingly, i just discovered that mike bush suggests on his site, that one monitor for mites and consider using a noncontaminating treatment if needed during the regression process. in my view, this is the more 'practical' approach, especially for beginners.


so, while there is a lot of good information in the book, for me, the bias it contains overides the usefulness of it. jmho.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

1. I have barely been on Beesource in the last several days (I don't think I've posted anything since this thread was started). I'm not really sure what is expected of me here...I'm running a business, recovering from Lyme disease, keeping honey bottled and stocked for our holiday market (that Ramona is doing 7 days a week...from the sat after thanksgiving to the day before new years), keeping our wholesale accounts (30+) stocked, doing my best to assist a grad student who needs emergency samples from the north for a thesis, planning our curriculum for our 6 session beginners bee classes, 3 session advanced topics, 3 lectures and a possible 2 day beekeeping intensive for MIT's interterm, planning our talks for someone else's art project (a giant inflatable skep installation), planning our talks for some local bee clubs, and at least 3-4 other writing projects that i'm working on, building equipment for our bottling facility ...+ about 40 colonies of bees. I refuse to apologize for beesource taking the back burner. I don't have a job or other income. Any time I spend here is time taken away from working. 

It is easy, to ask questions. It is easy to give quick answers. It is time consuming to answer any good question thoroughly....I have several posts in the "what would brother adam do..." thread that I started to work on last week that I have not had time to come back to. Note that the information I have already presented on that thread wrt VSH is not something you will find discussed in any book, in the VSH breeders forum, or anywhere else online. I am very happy that Joe chimed in on that one, as everything else you will hear about VSH (from virtually any source) is that it is the best way to breed for varroa tolerance...yet, I think hardly anyone (including those on the VSH Breeders forum understands the downsides, or even does any kind of proper test for VSH. You get all this from me because I care enough to stick my neck out and to spend valuable time explaining the details that are often otherwise left out.

2. Oldtimer, my sincere and public apology. I dropped the ball in sending you a book...my fault, my oversight, my responsibility. Thanks for the reminder, I will send one out to you on Monday inscribed with an apology.

3. The book is very much based on our own experience. At the time of writing, we were using mostly top entrances (with no bottom entrance)....we decided (from our own experience) that there were some issues with management in this kind of setup that were difficult to explain/quantify, so we recommended more standard equipment than we were actually using at the time. We regret (in hindsight) suggesting orchards as being good places for bees. At the time of our writing, we had used HSC extensively, and not ever used the PF series....we had heard about them, but were not willing to recommend something that we hadn't used. We have since used the pf frames quite a bit (we buy them wax coated as any beginner would), and like them very much. We no longer recommend HSC, as the acceptance time and brood density make it a poor second place to the pf frames.

Outside of the above specific issues, everything we recommend in the book is still what we recommend, and is based on what we are actually doing.

I don't think there are any other books that explain what bee space actually is (as opposed to giving it a measurement), that talk about the hive as a complex adaptive system, that stress the importance of microbes in the hive. I am very proud of the way we were able to stress the fundamentals while leaving room for the reader to develop their own plan based upon their own needs.

As far as bias goes...every book has biases. Some will tell you that if you don't treat your bees they will die. Our biases are based upon our own experience, and what we recommend is what we actually do.

There are plenty of resources to tell you what to treat with and how....many of those resources will tell you how "green" the "soft treatments" are (which is so far from true it is sad to see the claims repeated over and over). If you want to use treatments, you will have no problem finding resources to help you do just that. 

I'm not going to recommend something I don't do. I'm not going to sugar coat (or sugar dust) my opinions....why the heck would anyone want to read a book that tells you how/why to do something the author doesn't do?

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

wrt to cover subtitle, "Everything the budding beekeeper needs for a healthy, productive hive".

You have to understand that this is a book published by penguin...the worlds largest book publisher. I don't believe that any other beginning beekeeping book comes from "the publishing industry" (except the dummies book...but the dummies publisher only publishes dummies books, it is not part of a larger publishing group).

We were hired to write the book, had no say in the title or subtitle...but had almost complete freedom wrt the content of the book. The price we paid for this lack of control? Well, we were paid a reasonable advance for a first book, our book has very good distribution, and is available new from Amazon for under $11. In addition, we had very good people to deal with from conception to final editing (although editing is never perfect). So, I should feel bad that a blurb on the cover of a commercially available product is a bit overstated? Really?

deknow


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks dean.

that explains why i am not hearing much about hsc.

i thank you for your work and your willingness to contribute freely to the discussion here on beesource. i know there are many here including me that value your input.

in the end, each of us a personal view on how to approach beekeeping, and i absolutely respect everyone's right to their own approach.

at this point, my personal approach is somewhere between 'you better treat your bees or they will die', and 'a single use of any treatment sends you down a slippery slope'.

i am new, and trying to learn. my desire is to always be looking for ways improve my approach, and that is my motivation for raising these questions.

anyway, i do wish you every success with all your endeavors, the best of health, and a great holiday season and new year.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Barry...Why don't you just recommend the Penn State On Line Course, for $189.00 to everyone. HA!!! They won't need to read a book. That should get them started and likely catch up to the other thread. Apparently that one will never die.

cchoganjr


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hey much thanks, I am very much looking forwards to reading this book.

Was that phrased correctly? You have 40 hives?



deknow said:


> as everything else you will hear about VSH (from virtually any source) is that it is the best way to breed for varroa tolerance...yet, I think hardly anyone (including those on the VSH Breeders forum understands the downsides, or even does any kind of proper test for VSH. deknow


I know what you mean. Many breeders freeze brood, see how fast the bees clean it up, and think that is testing for VSH.

In my country, the VSH breeding program which has been running for 8 years now, DOES test for VSH properly. In the "wild", many hives exhibit some vsh naturally. The way we test, is to pick the caps off 400 cells and examine the contents. Most cells that had a mite move in will contain a mite family. But a few will have no adult mite, but maybe a male egg, and some feaces. This is evidence that the bees detected the mite and removed the capping, letting the mite out, after which the cell was re- sealed. This does not kill the mite, but does interupt her breeding cycle. Using this testing technique, it has been found that the general bee population in my country has a few of the best hives with up to 20% of the cells that a varroa entered, having been uncapped by the bees and the varroa mite let out and her breeding interupted. This is called 20% vsh. The hives with the best vsh % have been selectively bred from over the last 8 years, using II. We now have bees that are as good as 80% vsh. At this level, the researchers were having trouble actually finding enough mites in a hive to be able to do valid research.
The problem, thus far, is fixing the trait. Seems it's linked to many different genes not just one. They can take an 80% vsh queen, and mate it to an 80% vsh drone, but not all the progeny will be 80% vsh they will be quite a wide range. 
The work has gone into a new phase where there is a 3 year plan to attempt to fix the trait (or that's my understanding of what's happening ATM).
BTW, proper vsh does not result in patchy brood, that would be hygeine, where bees toss out the larvae. The vsh we are breeding for does not involve removing the larvae, just uncapping them, then re-capping them after the mite moves out.

8 years ago when this breeding program was set up, the researchers identified several means by which bees resist mites. By doing some maths though, it was considered that trying to select for all of them at once was going to slow the program down considerably. It was 'decided it made sense to just shoot for one trait at a time. VSH was considered the easiest to reliably ID correctly, so that's what they are working on. No concrete plans are in place as to what varroa resistance mechanism to go for next, but the general thoughts are that once vsh is being reliably and usefully distributed around the country, some other mechanism will be targeted, to add to that. 

The first VSH queens have been made available for sale to the public from this program, this year.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I feel there are a few more things that have to be said here....pardon me if they come off as defensive.



squarepeg said:


> i thank you for your work and your willingness to contribute freely to the discussion here on beesource. i know there are many here including me that value your input.
> 
> in the end, each of us a personal view on how to approach beekeeping, and i absolutely respect everyone's right to their own approach.


That is all well and good...but from my perspective, it is hard to reconcile this with what you have posted.



squarepeg said:


> i would have liked for the author to have joined the discussion, but i guess he his unable or unwilling to do so. i really wanted to give the benefit of the doubt...


I did nothing deserving of _not_ giving me the benefit of the doubt. You might recall that one of my last posts in the "what would brother adam do" thread, talked about how busy I am. You certainly aren't required to keep track of when I am or am not posting, but if you had clicked on my user name and checked my most recent posts, you would have seen that I haven't posted anywhere on beesource (or any other forum) since this thread started....the above (aparantly not giving me the benefit of the doubt...whatever that means) was posted 4 days after you started the thread. I resent the fact that I have to sound so defensive for not posting in 4 days to a thread you wanted me to participate in.


> first, i feel like the subtitle "Everything the budding beekeeper needs for a healthy, productive hive" is, well, overstated. i could give examples, but i won't out of fairness to the author.


If you have a legitimate and specific concern(s), I don't see why it would be unfair to the author to air them. I think it is extremely unfair to take an obvious marketing blurb from the cover of the book and say that it doesn't include absolutely everything. I can break an unbreakable comb, and I don't expect that a band called "free beer" is going to serve free beer at the concert.

I just grabbed a few beekeeping books off the shelf:
On the back cover of "The Complete Guide to Beekeeping" (Morse), it says, "...Dr. Morse has covered all practical aspects of beekeeping in clear and concise language so that anyone readin ghis book should be well on his way to becoming one of the best beekeepers." _all_ practical aspects? ...really?

On the back cover of "Hive Management" (Bonney): "Hive Management offers concise, up to date information on the whole range of beekeeping tasks...." _the whole range_?

On the back cover of "Storey's Guide to Keeping Honey Bees" (Sanford): "Storey's Guide to Keeping Honey Bees Will Guide you through every step of beekeeping,...." _every step_?

Do you sense a theme here? That a bit of hyperbole on a cover quote is pretty much standard in the book business? That it would be absurd to critique any of these books simply because they didn't live up to promises on the cover of including absolutely everything?

Pardon me for critiquing your critique here. If there is something you think is missing, by all means say what it is.



> second, although there are no direct derogatory comments to the effect, a beginner reading this book could not help but come away from it thinking that the last thing in the world they would want to be is a beekeeper who feeds, uses standard size cells, or uses any kind of treatments.


I think you are paying us a compliment with the above.....that our thoughts are expressed clearly in our writing...the goal of any writing with a point...with something to say.




> with regards to no treatments, there is a slippery slope type comment that is similar to the treatment treadmill comment made by the ex-moderator of the tfb forum on this site, discouraging any use whatsoever of any kind of treatment.


Yes, and I would make the same arguments supporting the "slippery slope" analogy that I have done on beesource. As long as treating remains an option for dealing with issues, treatments will be used to deal with issues. You are not treatment free if you are going to treat when you have a high mite count....because at some point, you will always have a high mite count.


> interestingly, i just discovered that mike bush suggests on his site, that one monitor for mites and consider using a noncontaminating treatment if needed during the regression process. in my view, this is the more 'practical' approach, especially for beginners.


...more interestingly is that Mike Bush does not monitor for mites, and isn't using treatments.



> so, while there is a lot of good information in the book, for me, the bias it contains overides the usefulness of it. jmho.


...and can you name another book (besides Michael Bush's) that even considers the possibility of keeping bees without treatments? Certainly Conrad's or Chandler's....certainly not any of the more mainstream books. If we can agree that _some people_ are able to keep bees with no treatments...that it is possible to keep bees without treatments, then why are the vast bulk of beekeeping books not expressing their own bias (that your bees will die if you don't use treatments)...even though that bias is demonstrably false? Again, would you really rather read a book where the author writes about practices they don't actually follow? You really think that I should write a book that tells people to and how to treat even though I don't? ....or that only "mainstream beekeeping practices" should be included in any book?

With all of the above said...there is quite a bit in our book besides treatment free, no feeding and small cell....none of which you have chosen to comment on...except to say that it is all overridden by the authors bias, resulting in a useless (the opposite of useful) book.

To quote you again:


> in the end, each of us a personal view on how to approach beekeeping, and i absolutely respect everyone's right to their own approach.


...but I shouldn't write about it?

deknow


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

@Dean - of course every book has its biases - and I've no problems with critical readers pointing out those biases. I recently had the task of choosing the book to use for our bee school. Yours was one of the ones I considered, so were Kim Flottom's, Jim Tew's and others. In the end I decided to go with The Beekeeper's Handbook, 4th Edition, as the book I was most comfortable with for teaching. While we won't be teaching to the text, we suggest that students browse certain chapters ahead of each class so they'll have an idea of what we're talking about. And yes we'll point out what I'm choosing to call divergent opinions - Kim's 8 frame mediums for brood chambers for example. We'll talk about IPM and the need to understand what is happening in the colony. I think the best result of our class will be for people to start keeping bees and be very cognizant of what foreign materials they are using in their hives and why - my personal bias is the the less chemicals the better, but live bees have a way of trumping dead bees.

Small Cell will be presented as another divergent opinion.

It is what I am comfortable with for presenting to new beekeepers.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

deknow said:


> ...but I shouldn't write about it?
> 
> deknow


I guess the same can be said, but no one should be able to express their view about it? I think you're over reading into a lot of the quotes you used. JMO


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Barry said:


> I guess the same can be said, but no one should be able to express their view about it?


I welcome views...but squarepeg declined to be specific...the book didn't include "absolutely everything" that was promised on the cover (without naming one thing that was left out), has a bias towards no treatments, no feeding, and small cell, and uses the term "slippery slope". That's all well and good...but also rather superficial and general....there is a lot of information in that book....a lot to disucss.
I don't want to make squarepeg feel badly...especially because he bought our book  ... but I feel that I have been treated unfairly simply because I've been too busy to post for a week or so....in 4 days it went from "one of the better primers" to, essentially "useless". The way his posts evolved certainly don't inspire me to spend time talking thoughtfully about the regression process and HSC...that isn't to say that I won't discuss it, but I'm certainly not feeling inspired to do so right now.
I am all for critique....but when critique consists of a few generalities tossed around, it isn't very useful to anyone.



> I think you're over reading into a lot of the quotes you used. JMO


...perhaps....but I can't help but wonder how our book went from


> it's one of the better primer's i've read, nice job dean and laurie.


to


> so, while there is a lot of good information in the book, for me, the bias it contains overides the usefulness of it. jmho.


in 4 days. The only thing that happened over those 4 days is that I didn't post to this thread.

deknow


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

So I think the take away here is to at least post "hi" every couple days!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...as my commercial landlord is fond of saying when someone (including me) tries to get him to do something he doesn't want to do...
"I don't work for you!"

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

fwiw, we had to cut the appendix of our book out in order to fit everything (we had no say over the length, other than we were able to add a few pages to the total, and replace the appendix with important text). It did, however, get typeset. There are a number of beekeeping books we recommend (Andrew, you will note that the Beekeepers Handbook is one of our favorites, although I haven't seen the newest edition).
http://beeuntoothers.com/AppendixBee.pdf

deknow


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i ready to be specific.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

but first i would like to apologize for apparantly breaching an unwritten forum etiquitte.

i didn't realize at the time, that it crosses a line when you post about someone not posting.

i'm sorry dean. 

i would not have liked that either, and i will give you and everyone else on the forum the common respect from here on in that regard.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

dean, are you still willing to answer a few questions that i, a beginner, have about your book's methods on starting beekeeping with treatment free small cell bees?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

deknow said:


> "I don't work for you!"


Not about me. Someone else was wondering where you were.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

deknow said:


> ...as my commercial landlord is fond of saying when someone (including me) tries to get him to do something he doesn't want to do...
> "I don't work for you!"
> 
> deknow





deknow said:


> fwiw, we had to cut the appendix of our book out in order to fit everything (we had no say over the length, other than we were able to add a few pages to the total, and replace the appendix with important text). It did, however, get typeset. There are a number of beekeeping books we recommend (Andrew, you will note that the Beekeepers Handbook is one of our favorites, although I haven't seen the newest edition).
> http://beeuntoothers.com/AppendixBee.pdf
> 
> deknow





Barry said:


> Not about me. Someone else was wondering where you were.


thanks for posting that barry. i somehow totally missed seeing dean's posts #34 and #35 earlier today
.
dean, my apology to you is sincere, the option to accept it or not belongs to you and you alone.

am i to infer that 'not working for you' means that you have not intention of following through with the purchasers and readers of your book?

the first question i asked was very 'specific' it had to do with putting shook out non-regressed bees on hsc. you later answered, "We no longer recommend HSC, as the acceptance time and brood density make it a poor second place to the pf frames."

so, the information i bought in your book is dated, even though book was only published two years ago. 

i had already scoured your:

"www.TheCompleteIdiotsGuideToBeekeeping.com
This is a portal to all manner of information, updates, clarifications,
videos, and an interactive forum. We hope to see you there!
Books"

but i didn't see anything there about you no longer recommending hsc frames. (_not a small detail for a beginner not to be updated on_). if i missed it somehow, again my apologies. my intial question was my attempt to get you to clarify here on beesource.

the appendix that got left out is a great list of resources, was i supposed get the change from hsc to pf there somewhere?

some of the other 'specifics', branched off of starting out with hsc. for example, getting the colony 'droneright' is recommended in the book, but no mention of how that is done using hsc.

there are yet other 'specifics', but i'm afraid this has turned into a p___ing contest that nobody can win, and i see no future in dragging everyone through that.

as far as the publisher's role in what was or was not included, and their choice for the subtitle, maybe that's the way it goes in the publishing world, i have no experience with that. for me, i would like to think i would back out of the deal or publish it some other way, rather than put my name to something i didn't agree with.

all of the positives i mentioned about your book are meant sincerely as well. i too am only human, and i gave the best, honest, and _objective_ review i could.

no ill will meant from this side dean, sorry for getting on your nerves.

barry, i've decided to pursue my interest in these matters in the tfb forum, and i ask that you please close this thread.


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## jrhoto (Mar 2, 2009)

Gentlemen open and honest discussion about different methods of beekeeping are good for all beekeepers.There are no perfect bees or no perfect beekeepers and until there is you as a beekeeper must do something to protect the health of your bee colonies.
John


www.poorvalleybeefarm.com


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

> am i to infer that 'not working for you' means that you have not intention of following through with the purchasers and readers of your book?


No, it means that I have to make a living, and sometimes that means that I don't have time to answer questions, or pop in to say "hi".



> the first question i asked was very 'specific' it had to do with putting shook out non-regressed bees on hsc. you later answered, "We no longer recommend HSC, as the acceptance time and brood density make it a poor second place to the pf frames."


1. Yes, you first asked a specific question...but it was directed at others.


> my question is, has anyone here tried that? if so, what were the results?


You didn't address a question to me specifically until post #19:


> no one? dean, can you help me out? (don't have to if you are busy as heck)
> you have probably mentored many first-timers. what percentage of packages regress when forced onto the hsc?


...which was the day before you appeared to be frustrated that I wasn't answering, and called the book useless.
...but to answer your question, HSC works most of the time when working with packages. Absconding can be an issue (which is why we recommend in the book using a queen includer)...but absconding can be an issue when installing bees on comb with honey as well. The biggest drawback is the acceptance time. Even with the acceptance time issue, I would recommend HSC over any other method other than the PF frames (unless you are starting with regressed stock).



> so, the information i bought in your book is dated, even though book was only published two years ago.


What an absurd observation. Are you going to like the jeans you buy next year better than the jeans you are wearing now? How could you possibly know?
How the heck could I possibly write about (or recommend) a product I had never used? Am I expected to use a time machine when I'm writing? Is it not sufficient to recommend things that I have experience and success with, or am I expected to be omnipotent? Really, get a grip.



> i had already scoured your:
> "www.TheCompleteIdiotsGuideToBeekeeping.com
> This is a portal to all manner of information, updates, clarifications,
> videos, and an interactive forum. We hope to see you there!
> ...


You are correct. We used to maintain a separate website for CIG, but there seemed little point (and it was a big hassle keeping things updated correctly), so now it forwards to BeeUntoOthers.com. At some point during the summer (after "newbee season", I dropped the "advice for new beekeepers" article off the front page, which had specifics about PF vs HSC (I think this was at the same time we combined the websites...which is no easy task). You are right that it should be up there, and I will add it to the to do list.



> some of the other 'specifics', branched off of starting out with hsc. for example, getting the colony 'droneright' is recommended in the book, but no mention of how that is done using hsc.


You are correct that we weren't specific about this...but you will also note that we only recommend the HSC for installing the package in the first box, and that when they are ready for a second story, only foundationless and foundation (with the bottom inch or so cut off) are recommended. By following the procedures in the book, you would not ever end up with boxes full of HSC and no place for the bees to raise drones (and a single box full of HSC when building up a new colony works fine). There is no procedure or mention of adding a second box of HSC.



> there are yet other 'specifics', but i'm afraid this has turned into a p___ing contest that nobody can win, and i see no future in dragging everyone through that.


Again, you haven't even given me a couple of hours to respond before deciding (and telling everyone) that I'm not going to respond....but for the record, although you wish for more detail in the book, nothing was missing wrt HSC and drones, no procedure in the book would lead to more than one box of HSC.



> as far as the publisher's role in what was or was not included, and their choice for the subtitle, maybe that's the way it goes in the publishing world, i have no experience with that. for me, i would like to think i would back out of the deal or publish it some other way, rather than put my name to something i didn't agree with.


Oh please. We are talking about a marketing blurb on the cover of a book (and I already posted that similar things are on the covers or back covers of the first 3 beekeeping books I pulled off my shelf). We are talking about a bit of hyperbole on the outside cover of a mass produced product. You really have specific concerns that you won't name, but you want to harp on the cover blurb? 



> all of the positives i mentioned about your book are meant sincerely as well. i too am only human, and i gave the best, honest, and _objective_ review i could.


ahhh...errrr, you have mentioned that you didn't find what you wanted on our website. You mentioned some confusion over how to get drones with HSC...both are valid criticisms.
...and you stated that our biases (biases that are clearly stated in the introduction) overrides the usefulness of the book.
But aside from the drone/HSC issue, you have not done what you said you were going to do....to be specific about what you think the problems are. You brought them up, and haven't named them. If you think there are significant things missing (as you said you did), what the heck are they? If the only problem is you didn't see how to get drones with HSC, then I think that is a darn good record for an almost 200 page book that is dense with information.



> no ill will meant from this side dean, sorry for getting on your nerves.


I don't think you even understand what the problem is. Commenting on whether someone is posting or not is not (as far as I'm concerned) a problem. Making judgements about why people aren't posting is a sure way towards a misunderstanding. I still don't know what you meant by not giving me "the benefit of the doubt", but I know I did nothing that deserved such a benefit to be revoked. I've done nothing but try to be helpful, and I don't appreciate being treated badly when I can't do so on someone elses (short) timetable.



> barry, i've decided to pursue my interest in these matters in the tfb forum, and i ask that you please close this thread.


A couple of more things....
Spend some time searching the archives....all the answers I've given you in this thread are on beesource, and on beemaster already. If you have a lot of questions, you will get better answers to better questions if you spend time searching and reading the archives.....otherwise, what is the point of keeping the archives here? This is how you can spend your own time educating yourself, rather than hoping that someone has the time and knowledge to give you a good answer to a specific question when you ask it. If you aren't willing to spend your own time doing some of this work, it is hard for me to see spending my time answering questions that have already been answered as a good use of my time. I don't say this for my convenience...whatever your goals are, you will reach them faster if you take some time to search and read the archives here when you have a question.

On a related note, you've posted about 500 posts in the last month (I looked it up). Not everyone has the kind of time keep up with all of that...and you have (at least in the case of this thread) been quite impatient in waiting for answers to your questions. ...then you want the mod to close the thread so you can start another one.

You brought this up...you claimed that there are enough important things "missing" to make the cover claim "everything the budding beekeeper needs for a healthy productive hive" objectionable enough to make an issue of it....and although you had a couple of questions about HSC, you have not specified a single thing that you think is missing (I have my own opinions on what would improve things). If you have time to make 15-16 posts a day, you have time to back up your assertions....but you want the thread closed instead.

Do you understand that it is frustrating from this end to try to be helpful, only to have vague criticisms that claim to render our book "useless" leveled at our book, apparently because I don't have time to make 15 posts a day?

What do you think is missing? Do you really think the book is useless?

deknow


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks dean for your long and thoughtful reply.

i actually agree with you, and i do find myself a little more 'consumed' with all this than i probably should be. it's just beekeeping, and this is just a forum. 

the forum format itself has its limitations, and i think the experience you and i are having is in part because of that.

its akward having a conversation this way. after thinking more about it, i believe i did internalize your lack of a response inappropriately, i felt you were ignoring my concerns about your product. my bad.

with respect to placing shook bees directly onto hsc, i haven't been able to find anyone who can share having personal experience with it. i had never heard of it before your book. that you find it works 'most of the time' is interesting. seems like instant regression would be anyone wanting small cell bees would do. maybe it hasn't caught on yet, or folks have moved on the the pf series.

"You are correct that we weren't specific about this...but you will also note that we only recommend the HSC for installing the package in the first box, and that when they are ready for a second story, only foundationless and foundation (with the bottom inch or so cut off) are recommended."

i took a quick look, but didn't find that about the second story. but thanks for addressing it here, and for the other the action items you mentioned. they will be helpful.

"What do you think is missing? Do you really think the book is useless?"

if you really would like to know what else i think is 'missing', or if you are interested in specifics on where i feel the bias in the book 'limits' its usefulness, i can provide that for you.

but, enough time spent on beesource for now.

cheers.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

"As the broodnest expands, follow the technieques for adding boxes and pyramiding up that we discussed in Chapter 7 [in chapter 7, we only discuss adding boxes with foundation (with a gap at the bottom) or foundationless...not HSC]. Once the HSC has been used by the bees, future bees will accept it freely. Just remember that while HSC will always produce small cell bees, you will never have the density of bees per square inch that is possible with small cell foundation or foundationless comb. "

(this is from deknow's post today in the 'small cell foundation' thread)

thanks dean. i found what you referenced in chapter 7, (except for the part about a gap at the bottom).

i stand corrected with respect to provision for drone comb.

i also need to correct an error in my previous post, i actually did find one person who had on one occasion shook bees onto hsc.

it looks like we're just beating a dead horse though, since the use of hsc as prescribed in the book never really caught on, or has since fell by the wayside.

i only had two other points that i wanted to discuss. one of them is pretty minor, and i'm going to drop it. 

the other one is important enough that i would like your feedback on it, but i think we could both use a break for now.

thanks for being a good sport, and thanks for hanging in here. these are important topics for all of us.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> the use of hsc as prescribed in the book never really caught on, or has since fell by the wayside.


HSC was used much more several years ago. I believe I bought my first box in 2008. At that time there were not many people interested in it, its use had already tapered off. Buy some and try it out. Carl Simpson would be glad to sell you some. Afterwards you can call North Canton Plastics and complain about the quality...

The molds should have stayed in China. Imo


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