# Butt joint



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

There is another option for hive body joints - a _rabbet joint_.

Rabbets can easily be made with a dado blade on a tablesaw, or two passes with a regular blade and a 'vertical' fence jig, or even cut with a router.

See post #5 here ...
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?324972-Box-sizes-and-manufacture
... for a diagram example rabbet joint.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Butt joints with screws and glue will stand up pretty well. I don't use them, but bought a few hives of bees in 1990 that had been made with butt joints. The hives were in pretty good condition for 10 years old. They had been maintained with regular painting.


----------



## Jackam (Jun 3, 2013)

I was out looking at my hives today and glanced at my first hive ever. It is butt jointed with nails. It's the only one like it in the Apiary. Still going strong.


----------



## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

I like to use rabbet joints also. Radar's link to the picture of said joint is great. I make 10 frame equipment and am making this years batch right now. Here's my cut size. Short ends 16 1/4". Long sides 19 1/8". The ends get 3/4" rabbet on either side. The top of both ends gets 5/8" dado as a frame rest. Use a sacrificial board attached to your fence for your 3/4" dado stack. The frame size is 19" so you have movement room when the frames get propalised. Don't forget the 4" dadoes 2" down from the top on all boards for hand holds. 

I use Tightbond III because of the 25 minute open time on glue up. Then 1" brads from my nail gun. I've been making them since 2013 and will rotate some boxes out this year to repaint. But they all still look good. I've only had 1 box that the bees chewed out a corner that I had to patch as a problem. Go figure!

10 - 1" x 12" x 10' pine lumber make 9 and 3/4 boxes. Be sure to rip them to 9 5/8". Your left over ripped pieces make great inner cover and outer cover stock.


----------



## pjigar (Sep 13, 2016)

I made my 3 batches of boxes so far:
First batch with "lock miter" joint: Big failure. Box breaks upon impact.
Second batch with traditional finger joints, glued and nailed with 2" medium crown staples: Overkill. I had to bang the box on it's corners for over a dozen times with violent force before I can break it.
Third batch with rabbet joint, 3/4"x3/8" rabbet on short boards, glued and nailed with 2" medium crown staples: Looks strong. I haven't tried breaking this one yet and can't comment on the strength.

I am sticking with rabbet joint long term because 
1. Cut time is very quick
2. the assembly is so much quicker compared to finger joints, especially the time it takes to glue them

Be sure to have square cuts and rabbets on all ends if you are going to make the rabbet joints. I use a ratcheting band clamp (http://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-x-15-ft-ratcheting-band-clamp-66220.html) to hold the pieces together while I staple them.


----------



## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Its just a box. Most of my "home made" hives are made out of wood salvaged from packing crates, with titebond 2 & staples, with butt joints. I don't go trying to bust them, & none have come apart on their own yet. If I had a bigger investment in materials, I might be more particular, after all, its just a box. Good luck ...CE
(Keep in mind, I have only been keeping bees a short time)


----------



## B52EW (Jun 3, 2013)

Butt joints, tite bond, air-nailed.


----------



## Jeff L (Dec 13, 2016)

How about a spline joint, super easy, increased strength, and it squares the box up when you put it together.


----------



## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Here is another thread about how to get greater strength out of your glue up on the end joint. One more step but assists the endgrain glue issues.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...odworking-article)&highlight=fine+woodworking


----------



## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

a rabbet joint has 1/2 as much end grain exposed compared to finger or butt joints. this adds to life. before modern water-proof glues finger joints had superior resistance to warping and the corners spreading, the good modern glues make up for this. finger joints were stronger with wobbly corners when no glue is used. butt joints are quick and easy but not quite so easy to keep square. it is your choice but use long life fasteners and glue. i use rabbet joints, tite-bond III and exterior screws. some use cheap interior plywood and staples, no glue , this works for a short time. {big secret: the bees do not care}... whatever you do keep the inside measurements exactly standard.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Butt joints....

I've seen people get theirs out out of whack when discussing hot topics like treatment free vs treated, the complex rocket science behind making sugar syrup, how to make a split, and lets not forget the screened bottom board fanbase.


I use Rabbet joints making bee hives, in case that's what you were asking about.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

There's a sickness in humanity called "I want to be superior and different". The illness leads to all sorts of interesting discussions about how "my way is better and different" than your way. Fact are often ignored or alternative facts get presented (as facts). 

As the witch was saying when she was melting..."what a world what a world?".

Rabbet joints.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Brad Bee said:


> Butt joints....
> 
> I've seen people get theirs out out of whack when discussing hot topics like treatment free vs treated, the complex rocket science behind making sugar syrup, how to make a split, and lets not forget the screened bottom board fanbase.
> 
> ...


Brad, do you mean like, balls in an uproar?

Minz is not wrong about the glue priming endgrain. I used to build and fly (and crash) radio controlled airplanes: fuzzy balsa makes an especially useless endgrain joint unless you fill and strengthen the shattered engrain. Improves the compressive strength too which is always present with any wracking loads. Seldom any joints in bee equipment are subject to pure tensile strain. I have visions of people using frame grips to loosen frames and prying between ends of top bars and upright face of the frame rest ledge: enough to make a sow eat her pigs!

Rabbet joints for me; maybe not THE best, but best bang for the buck.


----------



## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Another option is to use cross dowel nuts, a.k.a.  barrel nuts for your butt joints. Barrel nuts solve the end grain fastener problem and the joint does not have to be glued. 

This has an advantage for the backyard beek with limited storage space because she can knock down a super for flat storage during the off season. If the exposed nut bothers your inner OCD, then cover it with a 3/4x1 strip as a lifting handle.











I started a couple of weeks ago drawing up some plans for beeks that want to build their own boxes but don't have a lot of skills that uses barrel nuts and can be made with just a cordless drill and and a small cordless saw without the need for a table saw or scary expensive tools, but I'm a few days away from having those drawings ready (spare time thing), but I thought I'd go ahead and add the option to this thread.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

I think what a lot of us have figured out is that you need a dado setup to make the frame rests.
You set it up 3/8" deep with a 5/8" cut. It's pretty simple to move the fence over 1/8th of an inch and then do the rabbet-cuts. 
I keep a table saw with the dado set on it at all times for making the rabbets and frame-rests. 
There's a second table saw. The one for the rips. There is a third saw too. The sliding miter saw is for cutting boards to length. 
Can crank out a stack of twenty boxes before lunch easily. Painting and assembling takes way more time than the cuts.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

JConnolly said:


> Another option is to use cross dowel nuts, a.k.a.  barrel nuts for your butt joints. Barrel nuts solve the end grain fastener problem and the joint does not have to be glued.
> 
> This has an advantage for the backyard beek with limited storage space because she can knock down a super for flat storage during the off season. If the exposed nut bothers your inner OCD, then cover it with a 3/4x1 strip as a lifting handle.
> 
> I started a couple of weeks ago drawing up some plans for beeks that want to build their own boxes but don't have a lot of skills that uses barrel nuts and can be made with just a cordless drill and and a small cordless saw without the need for a table saw or scary expensive tools, but I'm a few days away from having those drawings ready (spare time thing), but I thought I'd go ahead and add the option to this thread.


What are you doing for a frame rest? I don't see one in your drawing.


----------



## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Brad, 

I didn't draw in the frame rest on that drawing. Make it with a TS or router or however you prefer.

I've got a well equipped shop and I build my own boxes from stock I mill myself for super flatness and use box joints I make with a dovetail machine just because the equipment makes it easier, but since we get lots of joinery threads obviously there are some beeks out there with limited skills or tools who want to make their own boxes.

So a few weeks back I started wondering, how could someone that did not have a table saw make a bee box? Perhaps someone who only had one of those battery cordless tool packs you see on sale at Home Depot at Christmas time, but they really enjoy DIY.

I decided to try to make make a bee box using only two tools: a cordless drill and a cordless circular saw.

For rock solid but simple joinery I decided to use barrel nuts. Knock down ability was a secondary advantage.

But as you pointed out, the frame rest is the challenge for those two tools. The idea to solve that was to make the bee box 3/4" longer and secure 3/8" plywood panels (part C in the picture below) to the inside of the box. The panels are 5/8" shorter. The inside box dimensions are the same. The problem here is the box is now non-standard. It works for the beek that will always build all his own gear. It could stack with standard equipment, but there would be 3/8" overhang on each end. 

I really don't don't care for the non standard size so I'm still working on that, looking at some safe jigs for a circular saw. It would be fine if you had standard equipment and found yourself in a pinch and needed a new super really fast and couldn't wait to order one, you could bang one of these out in minutes.

Ultimately I might have to give up on answering the two tools question and add a router or be satisfied with posting plans for a non-standard box.

Eventually I'll post dimensioned plans along with some photos and instructions from a test build once I get it all worked out. Right now I've got other things taking my time so it'll be a couple of weeks.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Interesting concept; there are certainly customers with tool limitations who would take up on that idea.


----------



## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

Personally, I use rabbit joints for boxes when I build them from scratch. I don't make many and I also have a European sliding table saw which doesn't support dado use beyond about 1/4". If I were going to make a lot of boxes, I'd use box joints and grab a used, quality table saw to dedicate to the job.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Thanks for the answer JConnolly. I have a fully equipped wood shop and cut my frame rests with a stacked Dado blade. I was just curious how you were going to tackle that with the "two tool" concept. You could laminate 2, 3/8 pieces of plywood for the end boards but that would increase weight and cost. Like you, I don't think a longer box would work well. I suppose the frame rest could be cut with a circular saw if the boards were clamped tightly or a jig was made but I think I'll stick with the relative safety of a table saw. As you said a router would be easiest if a person doesn't have a table saw. In reality a router may be just as fast and easy as a table saw.


----------



## MadAnt (Jul 23, 2016)

JConnolly, there is another way to make frame rabbets - cut front and back(where frames sit) panels a bit shallow and nail'n glue thin plank to form rabbet and complete the box.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

MadAnt said:


> JConnolly, there is another way to make frame rabbets - cut front and back(where frames sit) panels a bit shallow and nail'n glue thin plank to form rabbet and complete the box.


Good thought; you could also use a harder wood to better resist the hive tool.


----------



## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

If you glue and fasten with screws/nails and paint ...type of joint does not matter...I use miters because they are easy with a miter saw


----------



## Gumpy (Mar 30, 2016)

aunt betty said:


> I think what a lot of us have figured out is that you need a dado setup to make the frame rests.



Not at all. A simple blade in a table saw will do just fine with two passes to cut a frame rest rebate or to cut a rabbet. One pass blade at 3/8", fence at 5/8" from opposite side of blade, board flat on table. Next pass the blade is 5/8", fence is 3/8" from near side of blade, board vertical. Similar for the rabbets. 

You're only cutting the end pieces (unless you use a spline joint, which I'm going to try next time I make some boxes). If they are all cut to length and ready to go, it takes very little time to run each through a pass or two with each fence/blade setup. The biggest problem comes when the board is cupped. Clamping a stiffener to the board to pull it straight before running it through the vertical pass takes a bit more time, but not significant. Clamp the stiffener to the crown side and pull back the edges to the stiffener. This will be done for cutting the rabbets, not the frame rest. Clamp the stiffener in the middle of the board and you can still run both rabbet cuts. 

So the sequence to optimize setups is: 
Blade at 5/8", fence at 3/8" - Run all vertical cuts for frame rests. Also run both sides vertical for rabbets. 
Move blade to 3/8", fence at 5/8 minus width of blade (7/16 for a 3/16 blade) - run horizontal cut for frame rest.
Move fence to 3/4 minus width of blade (9/16) - run both sides horizontal cut for rabbets. Note that the vertical was cut only 5/8 deep, but this cut will meet it due to the width and height of the blade. 

Three adjustments. 6 passes across the blade for each end board. Really pretty simple. Nice clean cuts.


----------



## wallyblackburn (May 5, 2015)

Started out making box (finger) joints. Looks great. Nice and strong. Takes a lot of time...
Went to rabbet joints using 2-cut method above. Doesn't look as nice. Much easier. Still plenty strong enough...

Then, I realized I was paying about $20 for cedar to make each medium because I HATE to paint...and Foxhound sells cypress, box jointed, unassembled mediums for $16. Guess what I do now?

Thanks,
Wally


----------



## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Frame rest problem solved for two tool construction. The box is standard dimensions now. (Thanks for the suggestion madant).

In a few days I'll post plans and build instructions, but this rock solid knockdown-able bee box can be built using only a cordless drill, a cordless circular saw, a square, and a measuring tape, making it possible for the beek who has limited tools to DIY.










The ends are cut 5/8" lower, then the handle is attached and a 5/8" strip of 3/8" plywood or hardwood is inserted and glued/screwed/stapled to the back of the handle. The plan does necessitate the use of a protruding box handle flush with the top, closing the end and backing up the filler strip. Personally, I like the wood handles anyways because I can grip the box closer to my body which helps when lifting and carrying a box full of honey. It means the top cover has to be a bit longer, but for the tools being used a migratory type cover is probably the best choice.

Safety tip: when cutting the narrow 5/8" filler strip, cut it from the edge of a large piece that is wide enough to fully support the saw shoe plus be secured down.


----------



## Tibbigt (Mar 17, 2017)

OK everybody I have one more question. Can I make a deep box and medium box slightly longer so I don't have to cut a frame edge on the board I could just put in a one by or similar board to hold my frames


----------



## B52EW (Jun 3, 2013)

You can make it like a Coats Nuc Box. (do a search for plans on this site). But if you have a table saw it is easier to just make the cut out, 5/8 deep and 3/8 wide across your ends, then butt joint.


----------



## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Any thing you make that is not "standard" , or that does not work with standard, you will regret.


----------



## B52EW (Jun 3, 2013)

That is true.


----------



## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

B52EW said:


> You can make it like a Coats Nuc Box. (do a search for plans on this site). But if you have a table saw it is easier to just make the cut out, 5/8 deep and 3/8 wide across your ends, then butt joint.


 Beware of leaving too much space beyond the ends of the top bars. I made nucs boxes out of thicker scraps, & found the frames
would slide too far to the ends, fouling up "bee space".
Good luck. CE


----------



## Tibbigt (Mar 17, 2017)

tech.35058 said:


> Any thing you make that is not "standard" , or that does not work with standard, you will regret.




What needs to be standard besides the frames? Without a table saw and stuff right now I need to make due with what I got and finger joint just isn't going to work right now..

I just need a few boxes in case of a swarm this yr..


----------



## Tibbigt (Mar 17, 2017)

So if I made the box 3/4 longer and put a whole 1by in there cut down a little that would work right? I just need a few emergency boxes to start the yr.


----------



## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

If the box is 3/4" longer, that would give you 3/8" on each end. A strip of 3/8" plywood on each end will give you a frame rest, but below the frame rest you will have a large gap between the end of the frames and the box. That may not be a good situation.


----------



## Tibbigt (Mar 17, 2017)

If I put the Plywood the whole way at the bottom and cut it to fit the frames wouldn't that take care of the below the frame space?


----------



## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Yes. Then your only issue will be a longer box will not fit standard equipment. If it is not the top box, you do not have to worry about the covers fitting. You will have a small ( 3/8" ) area at each end that may collect water and rot a little sooner, but that may not be a big problem for you?


----------



## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

A fairly easy way to do this is build the box with inside dimensions 1/8 longer than the top bar of the frame. Then cut a piece of 3/8 plywood that is 5/8 shorter than walls. Nail/glue it in place to form the rail.

Non standard equipment is a problem down the road as it problematic to have "various bases/inwer covers/top covers that just fit that box". However, to get started in an economical way, nothing wrong with going non standard.


----------



## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

mgolden said:


> A fairly easy way to do this is build the box with inside dimensions 1/8 longer than the top bar of the frame. Then cut a piece of 3/8 plywood that is 5/8 shorter than walls. Nail/glue it in place to form the rail.
> 
> Non standard equipment is a problem down the road as it problematic to have "various bases/inwer covers/top covers that just fit that box". However, to get started in an economical way, nothing wrong with going non standard.


 Agreed. That is basically what was just said.


----------



## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Tibbigt said:


> So if I made the box 3/4 longer and put a whole 1by in there cut down a little that would work right? I just need a few emergency boxes to start the yr.


If you make it 3/4" longer then just glue in a 3/8 thick sheet of plywood as shown in the second cad drawing above. The frame rest plywood panel is part C. That forms the frame rest and maintains beespace. 

Or you can make it like the third cad drawing.

I'll post some dimensional drawings and assembly pictures sometime in the next couple of weeks. I haven't had time to do them yet.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Tibbigt said:


> So if I made the box 3/4 longer and put a whole 1by in there cut down a little that would work right? I just need a few emergency boxes to start the yr.


No. They will draw wonky comb past the end bars of the frame that will get scraped off when removing frames by the 1X that you use as a frame rest. That's almost a guaranteed way to squish a queen from time to time.

Just use the D Coates plans, using 3/4 lumber. It will just leave extra room at the ends of each top bar, which wouldn't always be a bad thing, if your bees put propolis in every conceivable gap with as much vigor as mine do. I'm fairly certain that the bees I have could glue the world together.


----------



## Gumpy (Mar 30, 2016)

Tibbigt said:


> So if I made the box 3/4 longer and put a whole 1by in there cut down a little that would work right? I just need a few emergency boxes to start the yr.


I'm understanding you to say that your additional 1x would fill the end of the box on the inside, and would leave no open space below it. Yes, that would work. However, you would actually need to make the box 1 1/2 inches longer to accommodate both ends. It would be preferable to use a 3/8 filler, though. I would suggest just getting some 1/2" plywood. Cut it to the inside width, and 5/8 shorter than the inside height. Adjust the length accordingly as actual thickness is not equivalent to nominal thickness. That's why I chose 1/2" rather than 3/8.


----------



## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Man I use to take pride in building hive boxes made with finger joints ( incra I-BOX) until I started using the KREG pocket hole jig. Using 1x8x6 , I rip these down to 6 1/2". then I cut (2) 8" and (2) 19 7/8 pieces ( nucs) ( I think 12 3/4" for mediums i fergit), I cut the frame ledge rabbet and the hand holds, glue and screw. done.


Tibbigt said:


> I am still waiting for my first box so I can see how it's really made but till then it seems confusing lol. I am a pretty handly person but still young and learning. Does anyone do just a butt joint instead of finger joints? If anyone knows of anyone please let me know who and picture would be great if anyone knows of any or plans!!
> 
> I tend to over think things till I see it so thats probably what I'm doing with these finger joints!! I've found butt joint traps and nucs just wanna hear about whole hives..


----------



## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Tibbigt said:


> I am still waiting for my first box so I can see how it's really made but till then it seems confusing lol. I am a pretty handly person but still young and learning. Does anyone do just a butt joint instead of finger joints? If anyone knows of anyone please let me know who and picture would be great if anyone knows of any or plans!!
> 
> I tend to over think things till I see it so thats probably what I'm doing with these finger joints!! I've found butt joint traps and nucs just wanna hear about whole hives..


I have seen quite a few videos on YouTube where it appears.that the keeper just screwed plywood together with a butt joint. It won't last as long, but if it's cheap and quick to make replacements, maybe it doesn't matter.


----------



## frogpondwarrior (Aug 2, 2016)

vdotmatrix said:


> Man I use to take pride in building hive boxes made with finger joints ( incra I-BOX) until I started using the KREG pocket hole jig. Using 1x8x6 , I rip these down to 6 1/2". then I cut (2) 8" and (2) 19 7/8 pieces ( nucs) ( I think 12 3/4" for mediums i fergit), I cut the frame ledge rabbet and the hand holds, glue and screw. done.


my Incra I-box only got me two boxes last year. Just no time. Never thought about my KREG.....duh


----------



## pjigar (Sep 13, 2016)

vdotmatrix said:


> Man I use to take pride in building hive boxes made with finger joints ( incra I-BOX) until I started using the KREG pocket hole jig. Using 1x8x6 , I rip these down to 6 1/2". then I cut (2) 8" and (2) 19 7/8 pieces ( nucs) ( I think 12 3/4" for mediums i fergit), I cut the frame ledge rabbet and the hand holds, glue and screw. done.


If you are going to run rabbet for frame rest then it only take little more time to run rabbets on both sides of the same short side board. The end result will have twice as much glue area and half as much exposed end-grain. So in the end, you will get much stronger and long lasting box with little more work. You can screw any way you like with rabbet joint. I use my nailer to nail them together.


----------



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Butt joints will work fairly well -- my grandpa used them for a long time.

However, proper box joints glued with Titebond III or equivalent should last essentially forever if kept painted (and painting is more important than joint type -- wet wood will rot, doesn't matter how it's held together). Butt joints and rabbet joints rely on the fasteners to transfer loading between the boards, while box joints transfer loading to the bulk wood, meaning you can pry away for a very long time without damaging a box joint, but a butt or rabbet joint will fail when the fasteners come loose.

As noted above, it takes a great deal of force to cause a box joint box to fail. Gluing end grain never works well, not matter the glue (even Elmer's white glue is stronger than the wood when dry, and everything else is better) -- the wood will fail instead. Fully nailed box joints are very strong -- rabbet and butt joints are weaker.

I make box joints for boxes, rabbetts for inner and outer covers and bases. I've seen far to many poorly painted or poorly assembled boxes in very poor shape after a couple years. I'm scampering like crazy to get enough boxes made this year, and I don't want to spend this much time in the future replacing failed boxes because I took short cuts this year!

But that's me. As I said, my Grandpa used butt joints for many years, but I don't know how often he had to replace boxes, I was too young as he gave up the bees when I was about 10 and he was in his mid 80's.

Whatever joint you use, keep those boxes painted properly. Rot kills far more than failed joints.

Peter


----------



## MimbresBees (Sep 22, 2016)

JConnolly said:


> Brad,
> 
> I didn't draw in the frame rest on that drawing. Make it with a TS or router or however you prefer.
> 
> ...


you all know how crappy barrel nuts are, your cheap dressers, bookshelves and other crap chinese furniture is shaky and falls apart after one two moves...def not a secure fastener. imagine a bee box, hiw fast it would fall apart after the 1st use.


----------

