# Media over dramazation



## MountainCamp

As with everything it gets hyped.

"California's almond industry alone contributes two billion dollars to the local economy, and depends on 1.4 million bees which are brought from around the US every year to help pollinate the trees, he added."

But I thought that guys made a living on pollinating the Almond crop. With only 1.4 million bees being rented, who can make a living on 46 hives?


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## Jeffzhear

Mountaincamp, I noticed someone else on another thread picked that up too, about the 1.4 million bees... 

Bluegrass thanks for posting the article, I would have probably missed it otherwise.


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## bluegrass

It's getting out of hand...I have had several friends ask me what I thought about all the bees vanishing; how are you supposed to answer that when they have already seen it on TV and read about it in the papers? I just keep saying "oh its nothing"


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## Keith Jarrett

Bluegrass,

very well said,

All the news I have read here in Calif, is poor keepers crying foul. Some here on Bee source have said that I'm irresponsable by not buying into this ccd.

We will see how much is fluff. There are some new methods of detection so we will have to wait and see. 
Keith


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## tecumseh

keith sezs:
All the news I have read here in Calif, is poor keepers crying foul. Some here on Bee source have said that I'm irresponsable by not buying into this ccd.


tecumseh replies:
does ALL really mean all or does this suggest that keith reading list is extremely limited? Is this non media hype? no matter what the answers I would suggest that you seem extremely insensitive to those folks and families that depend on honeybees for their livelyhood and have for generations.

as a general rule in regards to debate: folks with limited information and no legitimate argument to contribute to the debate quite typically resort ot nit picking small details to demean some other persons contribution.... this is the rhetorical equivalent of knee capping your opponent.


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## bluegrass

Tec, no disrespect, but everybody is entitled to their opinion. I was a media major in a past life and I don't buy into this hype either. You always have to consider the source of the story when reading or hearing something....Did you notice the AFP (French Press) symbol at the top of the article and the referance to Frances problem in the 90s because of pesticides? Why would they care about our bee problem here???? Because they made a killing off of it when it was happening to them!!!


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## tecumseh

and none taken bluegrass.... I do appreciate your tagging your expertise/experience since in my small mind not all opinions are equivalent. 

for example... I have dug myself into hot nuclear reactors, but I would be quite unlikely to take the opinion of some journalist when I took that little job on...on the other hand if I wished to write a small article on beekeeping I don't suspect my first contact would be a nuclear engineer. 

please explain how the french (and no I did not recognize the significance of the symbol-and thanks for pointing that out) 'made a killing' on this prior episode?


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## bluegrass

tecumseh said:


> please explain how the french (and no I did not recognize the significance of the symbol-and thanks for pointing that out) 'made a killing' on this prior episode?


I was not refering to the french as a whole, Just the french press...They would not be covering this story if it had not sold papers when it was their story. 1. I haven't ever seen them cover any other US agriculture issue before. 2. They don't really care about any other issue in the US, so why this? The AP is the gold standard and here is what they have published about honey bees for the past several months. Sorry link did not work...go to AP and search archives....they have not even covered CCD once.
If you look at yahoos other news stories you may note that most are from the AP. But this one they had to get from France! I am not saying that CCD is not an issue, just that we have to watch what we learn about it and the source of thaqt info..The increase of CCD posts shows me that alot of people on here are consuming alot of media hype and getting worried.


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## sqkcrk

Whether anyone here has experienced the loss of their colonies from CCD or Disappearing Disease, those who have have. To scoff at their loss as nothing is close minded and insensitive.

Those of us who have lost hundreds and or thousands of colonies really want to know why. Those of us who haven't need to sit back and listen for the results to come in and then react accordingly.

IMO.


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## Jeffzhear

You know, one thing I have noticed regarding the CCD threads on this forum is that the guys/gals that are most affected by CCD don't appear to share the details of their troubles. I am sure there are lots of reasons for this, one of which is time. I watched that Map someone set up for people to report CCD for MONTHS and know one with significant losses identified them on it all the while I was looking. I read the CCD threads on a somewhat regular basis and there was a whole lot of speculation and again, very little cold hard facts about how many keepers, hives, severity, etc. 

Now, maybe I missed some significant data because after awhile I just didn't pay close attention any longer because it didn't impact me in a significant way. I will say that if there are others are like me, I think we haven't been sensitized enough by those who were affected.

With that said, my heart goes out to those that have been affected from the small hobbiest to the big time commercial folks. God Bless


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## Keith Jarrett

Tecumseh & Sqkcrk,

I don't think any one here is down playing finiancal losses to beekeepers and we all feel for those who have losses.

That said, I strongly feel that, ccd like symtoms have occured in the past.

The news, and what gets in print: Myself, along with Duane (of Mann Lake ), and other good keepers have been interveiwed for CCD stories. Once in a great while does our views get in print. Most of what does get in print is the massive losses by keepers with a history of running sub-par bees.

What I would like to see is a balanced story for once about this CCD probem. I think acting on feelings and hardship is what driving this story.

Now the NHB is handing out money. NHB, BTW, is nothing more than a tax. Honey prices, aren't they great, just let the goverment sovle the problems. LOL

I wonder why this county is running a defict. Tax and spend.

Well enough said, Keith


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## Ian

Well Keith, hold on just a minute,

CCD is causing losses in California. And as far as what I can gather from what I read here, and I trust the fellows I read have some knowledge about the whole situation, there is losses that cant be explained. 
This is what I am am understanding.

If it only were so easy to blame sub-par bees. Or so easy to simply blame improper nutrition. 

I do agree there is a whole lot of spin going on here, and sometimes its hard to cut through the crap.


But that said, whats your definition of "running sub-par bees"?


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## Quint Randle

I'm a journalism professor and do research on news media. The coverage of CCD is very typical of "the hype" the media puts on EVERYTHING they cover. This is especially true for TV media. The coverage is very shallow and they seek the classic news value of "conflict."

I'm not taking away from the seriousness of the issue, but the thing you have to remember is you understand the hype this time because you are "in the story." You are a beekeeper. Just about everything the media covers has major inaccuracies and hype associated with it. (You just know it this time. Most of the time you don't cause you are an outsider.)

Quint Randle, PhD
Department of Communications
Brigham Young University


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian, 

But that said, what's your definition of "running sub-par bees"?[/QUOTE]

Ian, when I monitor my hive for mite load, we do as follows:

1) frames of live bees
2) frames of sealed brood
3) sticky board count per mite load per yard
4) month & week of testing
5) this BTW goes on weekly from July- Dec

We have a formula for mite load, so the relationship between seal brood and volume of bees = # mite count.

Now, if we have high sealed brood with lower live bee volume we re-calculate a different formula. Your mite kill is ONLY going to result in what's (mites) exposed at the time of testing so one needs to calculate accordingly.

We also do this in the late summer with frames of brood and hive strenght, so to have the right number of YOUNG bees pulling us through winter months.

The keepers that have had troubles, give me the (deer in the head light look) when I ask some of these (formula)questions. You must have some idea of relationship between bees, brood and month to estabish a mite count.

I could go on, Ian, but you see where Im going with this.

Hope your bees are doing well Ian,
Keith


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## Ian

>>running sub-par bees

Oh, I see. Your referring to the overall health of hives, not the actual bee type or breeding program etc.

In that case, I understand your point.


>>The keepers that have had troubles, give me the 

Is there a correlation between CCD hive losses, and the beekeepers mite management practices??

>>Hope your bees are doing well Ian,


Well yes and no.

Had some varroa problems with a bunch of yards last fall. 
Moved my nucs out of storage, to a great week of flight, but have had a week of cold fall on us. I am afraid my smaller hives are dropping by the day and doubt I will have a chance to re-enforce them. And I am afraid this two week delay will knock the top of my split!
Last year, I was making full splits by the 15th. **** good thing I fed them up last fall!


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian wrote:
Is there a correlation between CCD hive losses, and the beekeepers mite management practices??


IMO, I think it's over all health, Ian.

1) mites
2) nosema
3) stress
4)nutrition

I think keepers need to take a minute and really evaluate their bees in this manner. 
We can not run like we did in the 80's any more.

No longer can we move hives , pull honey , move, pull ect... to much stress on the bees these days.

I think every keepers has differant conditions to work with and has to find what the limit are. 
Keith


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## Chrissy Shaw

*I sit and watch*

I think the media attention towards beekeeping and the relation of bee troubles and food on ones table is a worthy subject. My friend in the valley began with losses in the summer, but he was still unsure if his California losses later were mites or CCD. I also saw Keith's colonies in the pics and darn they looked real nice. 

I wrote heavy to Coast to Coast until they took up the story. The reason i did is that one million listeners got a chance to consider honeybees. I also asked Linda Howe to dig in and she did. Many of the possible links between nicotine based pecticides and synergetic actions i heard first from her. 

I also am now hearing the cries for money for research and as soon as that starts i figure there is motive. I do not plan to add to that kitty. I still need to send the beesource some money, this place deserves it. As for a great wad of cash to investigate a problem that has not clearly been identified i can not see as wise. 

I have been keeping bees long enough to recall the glory days when beekeepers (commercial) bought empty equipment and swore there were bees in it and pesticides killed them. It was from such actions from our own ranks that a legitimate program to help those with genuine losses was ruined. So there may be some suspect reports floating out there as well. I trust my friend, i know him, but i don't know many of the others and i can not say one way or another. 

In the end, i wait. If this problem is really worth all the hype will be determined in the long run. The dust bowl was real and there are still farms, even though many people suffered massive, even life ending losses. It is the nature of agriculture. Beekeeping is always a risky business, it depends on the weather and the weather is promised well to no one. Thus far CCD is not dust bowl level and i hope it does not get there. If this all passes in a year, those with wounds will do what they need to and the rest of us will wipe our brows and sigh in relief that we were spared. If this turns out to be a combination of toxins and gm, we have even far deeper problems than our bees. If this is viral, bacterial, fungal, the bees will have to answer it, chemicals are just another step for trouble to climb and it always does. 

True, only time will tell.

Chrissy


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## tecumseh

keith sezs:
That said, I strongly feel that, ccd like symtoms have occured in the past.

tecumseh replies:
I quite agree keith and have directly suggested the same any number of times to beesource people and folks on the street that ask about the problem (typically phased.. has this disappearing thing affected your bees). I find it curious that the stories that run seem to ignore this history. 

the keith sezs:
The news, and what gets in print: Myself, along with Duane (of Mann Lake ), and other good keepers have been interveiwed for CCD stories. Once in a great while does our views get in print. Most of what does get in print is the massive losses by keepers with a history of running sub-par bees.

tecumseh ask:
I suspect what you are suggesting is that cultural practice (that's the culture in agriculture) is playing some part in this problem. at one time many bee keepers felt that 'leave it alone' strategy was the best method of keeping bees. slave labor honey prices (good for the bottlers, bad for the bee keepers) and a constantly increasing 'living wage' combined to encourage this strategy.

for certain practices doing them in a prescribed way (for example the use of terramicin) may be almost impossible to accomplish given the quantity of labor available at the firm level.

and I quite agree with you little list and I find it not so startling that one of the recommendation in regards to those affected is that terramicin has been added back as a recommended practice.

I do NOT agree that some lone ranger will ride over the hill and cure this problem. One of the great changes I have witness in my life is that the infrastructure for confronting these kinds of problems has now been largely dismantled. The anti government types should be quite happy. The down side of this kind of strategy is that every time a new problem pops up there is NO ems to attend to the problem and the clues to understand the nature of the problem are likely brushed from the sand long before the calvary shows up.

just my two cents....


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## Ian

Keith,

I have been hearing beekeeper reluctant to package into the dead out equipment because of fears of this CCD happening again to their hives. The advice I have been hearing is that it restocking equipment now posses a potential risk to repeat losses, until they have things sorted out.

But if your right, and it is merely a nutrition stress and overworked situation, then there isn't anything to worry about.

I understand exactly what your saying, but...

I keep seeing photographs, and hearing actual beekeeper stories, that some how leads me to think there is something else on top of what your claiming.

Why does most all the worker force disappear a strong and booming hive situation. I have been seeing hives left with eight frames of brood! Now, in my mind the hive was working good til then. And I have heard this will happen within a weeks vuisit!
And why is the hive left untouched for weeks after the bees disappearance? Don't you think this is unusual?

I have had hives fail from alot of things, but nothing lost to the symptoms I am hearing from down south.


I was at a bee symposium a few weeks ago, and they were mentioning the symptoms of the adult bee acted seemed to act similar to an infection with the Aspergilus fungi,
Whats your thought on that?


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## doc25

Just to throw something out there. Could it have to do with Africanized bees clearing out colonies? Have any of these symptoms been reported in south america?


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## Chrissy Shaw

*Hi Doc*

I have never heard that African bees would empty a hive, i have heard of usurping, but that usually is an invasion and of abscoding, but typically that is all the bees.

Chrissy


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## tecumseh

doc25 ask:
Could it have to do with Africanized bees

tecumseh replies:
back during the 60's was the first time I heard of absconding disease (I think the hot spot for the outbreak in those days was louisiana and texas). at the time it did not affect me directly so I paid little attention to the 'outbreak'. it was noted in the late winner and early spring by migratory bee keepers only that time all the bees were gone. a number of folks believe that the disapprearance was in some way related to africanized bees that were (according to rumor) turned loose at baton rouge louisnana.


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian,

You thought that CCD had unusual symptoms,

There are some that have some rather odd symptoms, Ian.

How much is true and how many numbers?

This I know has been said:
Quote, Jerry Hayes, Florida apiary inspector, said losses between 650,00-800,000

Now Ian, if we do a little math here.

2.5 million "mid summer" U.S.
-500,00 avg winter losses 
2 million start in spring alive.
1.2 million in C.A almonds
800,000 left in the county ?

With 650-800 thousand losses from CCD would mean there are no bees alive east of Calif ?

Foregive me Ian, I used some goverment data here, so we have a measure error rate +/- 40% 

Ian, so far I have heard and seen nothing but fluff from this CCD. I'm trying to keep and open mind but it is getting tougher by the day.There could be something there, time and money will track down these (so called)unanswered questions.
Keith


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## Ian

>>Foregive me Ian, I used some goverment data here, so we have a measure error rate +/- 40% 

Ha ha ha 


>>Ian, so far I have heard and seen nothing but fluff from this CCD

Keith, you have to realize I have no connection to CCD (so far) other than disscussions between beekeepers, this fourm, and researchers speaking at symposuims. And then the media, but I take the media with a big gain of salt. Everything I am gathering has been presented to me.

I do however realize you are right in the heart of the losses, from what I can gather, so I am really interested in you input. Especially when your opinion seems to be differing than everthing else I am hearing.

I would like to get some concrete answers to this problem. If it is beekeeper management, then I think we may have to either take the losses, when they come, or rework our management practices to better fit the requirements we have placed on the bees.

Keep talking Keith, we need more voices out there!


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian,

> I do however realize you are right in the heart of the losses, from what I can gather, . 

Nope, dont know one keepers that has this CCD, but do know keepers with D.O. ( poor to no bee management).

> Especially when your opinion seems to be differing than everthing else I am hearing.

Ian, your eyes will never lie to you, but your ears can 

I can't wait to see how many show up at the CCD convention next year.

Keith


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## Chrissy Shaw

*Ian, i have to plead ignorance on that*

Not only do i plead it, i often demonstrate it  I am not only unaware of that series of reports, i have not heard of any other such cases. I am not saying they did not happen, just that i am unaware of them. The only abscoding i have ever seen was an observation hive i opened too much in my bedroom to watch, they decided they would find more darkness in some other location and more room to build a brood nest.

Chrissy


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## Ian

>>Nope, dont know one keepers that has this CCD, but do know keepers with D.O. ( poor to no bee management).


So then how can you be so insistent CCD is due to "poor to no bee management"?

I was thinking you were considering your opinion on beekeeper experience.


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## HoneyBeeGood

Hello from England. American couple here,10 yrs (job related). Hobbist keepers,6yrs 6 hives last wk 5 this week, SW England, Near Badminton.

Hype made the London Times newpaper today, Page 5 'National' 1/4 page... sm colour pic front page! and National radio news this evening.

A John Chapple, "head of the London Beekeepers Association and has 20yrs experience w/the insects and their diseases" <snip> "one of London's largest keepers of honeybees, opened his 40 hives after the winter, he was shocked: 23 were empty, seven contained dead bees and only 10 were unaffected by what seemed to be a mystery plague."

It went on to say that Mr Chapple had been hearing from other bee clubs with 50%-70% losses........yadda yadda yadda

The latter would not surprise me, as things have been difficult to odd the last few years. More so in my mind because as a former bee inspector friend says a lot of hobbist folks are "keeping bees in firewood" . To my ears and experience it has been more one of Queen problems, as in our 2nd year marked Queens just disappearing. Lots of stuff floating around about new problems that seem to baffle the few old guys still in the hobby. 

Stateside son recently recomended NPR Talk Of the Nation March 9 'Friday Science' prog coverage.
I do not recomend listening but write to ask;

Does anyone know about a "Summit" held in Stewart (sp?) FL (aprox late Feb) from what I could make out where CCD seems to have been the topic?

Interviewed were Damiel Weaver TX Pres Am Beekeeping Fed (If I got that right?) very well spoken and level headed IMO and a Lady Prof from IL, May Burnbaum...??

Please where else are you guys reading to keep up with this issue hype or otherwise, otherwise preferable?

I spoke to the two main speaker at The Welsh Bee convention 2wks gone and the more experienced of the two shrilled "American Hype" and threw in a few opinions about Americans I best not relate. BBKA Convention in 2wk hense but agenda set and really doubt even question periods will dare touch it during the bee schools held the day prior and concurrent to the trade show.

The rest of us when we have spent all the money we can spend, will be telling each other what we have been reading on line and where to look for info.

I stay over for the Sunday BIBBI (Bee Improvement and Bee Breeder' Association)AGM and will let you know if anything concrete is said. BTY am NOT a breeder but keen on local Native Feral Black Bees.

Thanking you in advance
Stuck-To-The-floor


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## beegee

I lost 16 of 22 hives this year and I admit that it was probably sorry beekeeping. But, I can't explain the colonies that fit the CCD profile. If my sorry-ness was across the board, it would be one thing. But when I find hives in the same yard, from the same stock with "normal" die-out symptoms and neighboring hives with "CCD"-like symptoms, I wonder. No doubt, it's easy to blame CCD for sorry beekeeping. I'm thinking this is just cyclical and an accumulation of various problems allcoming together at once, sort of like a stock-market "adjustment". I'm not concerned. I'll continue to work with the survivors and hope Mother Nature can sort it out in th elong run.


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## bluegrass

HoneyBeeGood said:


> Hello from England. American couple here,10 yrs (job related).


 So do you get called septic often?


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian wrote,
> So then how can you be so insistent CCD is due to "poor to no bee management"?

Ian, I have looked at hives that the owner (beekeeper) said it was CCD.
Black old drone comb, the bees that were alive were mited up, and had low stores & Old queens. You can tell how much energy a keepers puts in to his/her bees just by the condition of the hives and equipment . 

Keith


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## HoneyBeeGood

bluegrass wrote: So do you get called septic often?

Septic nooo Ascerbic, (sp?) yes, but you have me here.....?

Perhaps my trade name HoneyBeeGood, is simular to some product on your side of the world is all I can guess? 

But them I am JUST the little old bottle washer in this here outfit. 
Sink hugging does limit ones brain.

Explaination please?

Western American Xpats in Britian


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## bluegrass

Sorry....I frequent a few British forums and they call me Septic because I am American. I was just wondering if that is a common trend there?


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## Ian

>>You can tell how much energy a keepers puts in to his/her bees just by the condition of the hives and equipment . 


Keith, I am told there are tens of thousand of hive losses associated to CCD. I have seen a list of some of the beekeepers effected by this problem. It would seem hard to believe some of those beekeepers would be ignorant to the craft of beekeeping.

>>"Black old drone comb, the bees that were alive were mited up, and had low stores & Old queens" 

Is that a common amoung beekeepers experiencing losses?


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## Tulipwood

I think the media is over dramatizing this. It's what they do. I read a headline somewhere today that said, "Are Cell Phones Wiping Out Our Bees?"


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## loggermike

Heres the cell phone link.Another article full of errors and speculation.

http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/wildlife/article2449968.ece

Where will it end?


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## tecumseh

hbg sezs:
Interviewed were Damiel Weaver TX Pres Am Beekeeping Fed (If I got that right?) very well spoken and level headed IMO 

tecumseh replies:
that would be Daniel Weaver who heads up bee weaver apiaries and is the son of Beneford Weaver. in a former life Daniel was a lawyers so yes I would expect him to be well spoken. I should also add that neither beneford nor daniel are set behind the desk type beekeepers.


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## bluegrass

"one of Britians biggest beekeepers lost 23 of his 40 hives"
If he is one of the biggest I guess Britian has nothing to worry about. Interesting read; I have three cell phones and my bees are still in the hive. 
As long as everybody is just throwing theories to the media....I think I have solved CCD. The headline would read...HONEY BEES ON STRIKE VACATIONING IN BAHAMAS DEMANDING MORE BLOSSOM DIVERSITY IN ORCHARDS.


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian wrote,

> It would seem hard to believe some of those beekeepers would be ignorant to the craft of beekeeping.

Ian, not really, I see it all the time. I saw beekeepers trying to run three framers in the almonds. This industry is in a shake out phase. I keep hearing about all these losses but I still havent seen or heard of one keeper with this problem. I have had keepers try to jump on the band wagon and call it CCD, for the sake of embaressment of their hive management or lack of.

I also heard on NPR radio, a Queen breeder from Texas and a reseacher trying to drum up support for this CCD and of course ,lobby for money. I was disappionted in what I heard.

Keith


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## Ian

>>Queen breeder from Texas and a reseacher trying to drum up support for this CCD and of course ,lobby for money. I was disappionted in what I heard.


With your perspective on the issue, I agree. CCD has gotten the countries attention, what not a better time to ask for money.

But with the perspective that CCD has merit, and to be frank, i haven't seen anything that disbelieves the CCD losses, drumming support and lobbying for research is nothing to be disappointed in.
This industry has been under supported in research and developments for years.


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian wrote,

> CCD has gotten the countries attention, what not a better time to ask for money.

>But with the perspective that CCD has merit, and to be frank, i haven't seen anything that disbelieves the CCD losses, 

Ian, that's almost funny, I haven't seen any proof yet that proves anything.

Now it's cell phones and CCD. What's next, I can't wait.

Au hell Ian, I think the marshens came and tooke'm.

But on a more seriously note, why should the goverment be called every time something like this happens in a industry?

I also have a heavy equipment contruction rental bussiness.

This year is going to be extremly slow because of the housing slow down here in Calif. So, I guess I should ask the goverment for a hand out , seem what the CCD camp is doing.Don't worry Ian, everything is free down here.LOL 

The TAX PAYER who's that.

Keith


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## Ian

>> also have a heavy equipment contruction rental bussiness.


I hear you Keith!

But thats not exactly what I was getting at. Throwing money to business to in response to disaster and giving money to industry for research and development are two different situations. My feeling between both are in favorable feelings.

>>Ian, that's almost funny, I haven't seen any proof yet that proves anything.

The fellows presenting the situation to beekeepers feel there is alot of proof to the CCD losses occurring. 
Weather or not the losses are due to some management practices, as you suggest, is still in the wash, but as far as the information they present to me, I would have to guess there is something more at play here.

But all the same lines, I discuss the public with much the same feeling as you. But I am a little more focused on the pollination stresses and the extreme drought you experienced in alot of the country which leads into the hives nutritional problem , as being "probably" the central problem to the issue. And then perhaps after, pathogens taking the hives down.

I dont relay an such nonsense that I am hearing hear there and everywhere.

The public knows about this issue. They all seem to know about it, and they are all asking questions. Out right dismissal of the problem isnt going to satisfy their questions. I think when we as beekeepers are relaying information back to the public on this issue, we have to be as specific as possible, with what we have gathered to be the situation. And hold off the rumours up till the people working on the diagnosis of CCD get some definite details out.


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## tecumseh

keith sezs:
also have a heavy equipment contruction rental bussiness.

tecumseh replies:
allllll... ok.... now I get it. so may I presume keith that you are not dependent on your bees for your primary income?

just so that you do know keith. your business has been extensively subsidized since the days of ronnie ray-gun as federal monies have been shifted from social programs (which typically subsidize communities with large population typically in the ne) to military program (which typically subsidize communities which builds military hardware and provides military services typically in the south and southwest). in the same period of time while you were being lavished with federal subsidy monies the budgets for the nsf and other federal research programs have been cut to the quick. so why should I be surprise that the problem is difficult to identify?

then of course there is that federally subsidized housing money that so obviously benefits the construction folks.... and I could go on and on... but why do I get the feeling that keith is quick to wag a finger at others that benefit from federal monies (for good reason or bad) but is totally unaware of the benefits that he receives? human nature? 

and the idea keith that you can figure out what kind of hive management is taking place in the inside of the hive by whether the hive body is painted or not stikes me as being extremely naive or lacking exposure to commercial bee keepers. these 'predictors' do provide some insight into the firms profits and the residual available for the time and money required to perform basic year to year maintance. even a casual glance at the yearly cumulative number of hives in commercial hands should suggest to you why frames have not been replaced and hive bodies not painted.


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## Keith Jarrett

tecumseh sezs,
allllll... ok.... now I get it. so may I presume keith that you are not dependent on your bees for your primary income?

Keith replies,
No ,the bees, per man hour, do the best. "presume" bad idea.

tecumseh sezs,
just so that you do know keith. your business has been extensively subsidized since the days of ronnie ray-gun as federal monies have been shifted from social programs (which typically subsidize communities with large population typically in the ne) to military program (which typically subsidize communities which builds military hardware and provides military services typically in the south and southwest). in the same period of time while you were being lavished with federal subsidy monies the budgets for the nsf and other federal research programs have been cut to the quick. so why should I be surprise that the problem is difficult to identify?

Keith replies,
wrong again, maybe if I was a black woman, maybe.
Now days, here in Calif, the developer has to provide section 8 housing by a state mandate.

tecumesh sezs,
then of course there is that federally subsidized housing money that so obviously benefits the construction folks.... and I could go on and on... but why do I get the feeling that keith is quick to wag a finger at others that benefit from federal monies (for good reason or bad) but is totally unaware of the benefits that he receives? human nature? 

Keith replies,
Wrong again 

tecumesh sezs,
extremely naive or lacking exposure to commercial bee keepers. these 'predictors' do provide some insight into the firms profits and the residual available for the time and money required to perform basic year to year maintance. even a casual glance at the yearly cumulative number of hives in commercial hands should suggest to you why frames have not been replaced and hive bodies not painted.[/QUOTE]

Keith replies,

Right now I have over two thousand hives in management,
average last five years 3,000 at this time. To what, might I ask, constitutes a commercial keeper?

I , BTW started out with two hives, and alot of mistakes.LOL

Tecumesh, federally subsidized bee programs are supposed to be a safty net, not for a CCD or CPD (cell phone disorder). The bee industry does not need any help with hive numbers at this time. Just look at the almond pollintion shortage, they had plenty of bees.

Keith


----------



## sierrabees

Keith Jarrett said:


> Bluegrass,
> 
> very well said,
> 
> All the news I have read here in Calif, is poor keepers crying foul. Some here on Bee source have said that I'm irresponsable by not buying into this ccd.
> 
> We will see how much is fluff. There are some new methods of detection so we will have to wait and see.
> Keith



Jefshear says:
You know, one thing I have noticed regarding the CCD threads on this forum is that the guys/gals that are most affected by CCD don't appear to share the details of their troubles. I am sure there are lots of reasons for this, one of which is time. I watched that Map someone set up for people to report CCD for MONTHS and know one with significant losses identified them on it all the while I was looking. I read the CCD threads on a somewhat regular basis and there was a whole lot of speculation and again, very little cold hard facts about how many keepers, hives, severity, etc. 

Read the above quote and the rest of Kieth's posts on this thread. You will understand why you don't hear much from those of us "poor beekeepers" who have taken losses. There is always some AH who got lucky that will try to boost his ego by bad mouthing the ones who got nailed. I've been around long enough to see a lot of those types eat crow, and Kieth, if you find you get hit next spring I've got a good recipe for crow and I'll be glad to cook it for you.

I know at least one beek who lost 100 out of 125 a year ago with the same kind of symptoms we see in CCD. He won't report it because he doesn't want to believe it is the same thing. I believe he also doesn't want fingers pointed at him as a "poor beekeeper"He bought 150 packages last spring and started over and thinks that because they all did well the first year he has it beat. I doubt it since all my losses were in well established hives with 100 percent new queens introduced in the fall, but they all had comb that had been in the almonds. I had a few losses that didn't fit the pattern but they could be pinned down to the normal winter loss problems and were in about the same percentage of the total as I expect to lose over winter. Since I am retired and can't work more than 50 colonies or so I have the ability to keep trying, but some of these "poor beekers" with multi generations of experience and knowledge have lost more money this year than a heart surgeon could earn.

I agree that the media hype is overdone, but maybe it will make Joe Sixpack more reluctant to grab a can of raid every time he sees a bee swarm or feral hive. That alone would be a benifit that would outweigh any harm done by the media in my way of thinking.


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## carbide

Sierrabees,

Great post. I'm glad to see someone besides myself that is getting tired of seeing the bad-mouthing going on here about "poor beekeepers". Talking trash on other beekeepers won't solve the problems in the hives. As you said, some of those beeks who have been hit the hardest are reluctant to say anything for fear of being negatively branded by those who think they know everything about everything. Also, I believe some of them are in a state of denial to believe that it actually happened to them.

If it's determined that nothing more than bad management is the cause of CCD, then we will all benefit from the media attention and the research that is being done right now on this problem. Not that I believe that CCD is all a figment of someone's over active imagiination as some here seem to think. I believe that it is a real malady being suffered by a widely disbursed group of beeks using a variety of management practices. Beeks that I've known for years that practice some of the latest techniques recommended in the most popular mags.

Unfortunately, some people have little faith in their brothers, and believe that they are better than them simply because they have been lucky so far and have managed to stay a step ahead of the problem. 

Sierrabees, good luck in the recovery of your bees, and here's hoping that I remain lucky as far as CCD goes.


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## tecumseh

VERY nicely said carbide (see we can agree on something). I wish I had writ 'that' myself.

meanwhile Keith is digging the hole of denial a bit deeper and like I suggested quite unaware of the massive subsidy he recieves via the construction trade. he quite obviously feels entitled to this handout of public monies. shucking the blame onto the backs of poor black women certainly sounds like keith is not only largely in denial but also marginally a racist (at least that is the impression I am left with) plus a sexist, plus a purveyor of class warfare.


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## Hobie

carbide said:


> ...If it's determined that nothing more than bad management is the cause of CCD...


...then we are no different from the rest of humankind. Our history is rife with examples of humans using "the latest technology" and "best practices" with the best of intentions, when it turned out, years later, to be a horrible mistake. One need only look back at: dumping sewage in the rivers to make it go away, burying radioactive waste, DDT, Thalidomide, etc., etc.


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## carbide

tecumseh said:


> VERY nicely said carbide (see we can agree on something).


Whew, I'd better be careful, wouldn't want that to happen too often. They might start calling me an old, cantankerous, pig-headed fool too.  To my face, that is, not behind my back anymore.


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## Keith Jarrett

Tecumseh sezs,
meanwhile Keith is digging the hole of denial

keith replies , no thats the CCD camp, do you hear me whining at all?


Tecumseh sezs,
quite massive subsidy he recieves via the construction trade. 

Keith replies,
sure would like to know where that is? Tecumseh, to make loose cannon statement like this makes me wonder. You dont even know what I rent, but you somehow know that I recieved subsidy.

Tecumseh sezs,
but also marginally a racist (at least that is the impression I am left with) plus a sexist, plus a purveyor of class warfare

Keith replies, 
A Black woman owned constrution firm qualifies as a MINORITY contractor. This is a major advantage when bidding, She does NOT have to be the lowest bidder to be awarded the job. 
Does this mean she's a bad contractor, NO, does this mean she's not qualifed, NO. What I'm saying is we are not all treated equal, the lowest bid does not mean you will be awarded the job. Dont take this out of context, I'm not complaining, just stating the facts.

Speaking of the facts, I hope the CCD camp sticks to just that, cell phones and who knows what's next does this industry no good.

I look at the facts when approching a problem, I do not look any further than to solve the problem. Feelings, hardships and monatary value loss all play into this media over dramazation, but solve nothing. This is how we got to this point and why I say many of us that are good managers are doing fine, you won't hear this in the news.

Luck has nothing to do with CCD. 
BTW, eating crow, sounds petty.

I'm looking between fact and faction here.

Keith


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## Kieck

Let me see if I've go this straight:

You don't believe in CCD, Keith? You don't think the symptoms described are real, you don't think CCD (or whatever you wish to call it) is really killing hives, or you don't think hives are dying off from the symptoms called "CCD" collectively?

Seems to me, if a beekeeper had 100 hives last summer and the bees in 90 of them "disappeared" last fall, the *fact* is that he lost 90 of his hives.

The "why" of their deaths may be unknown, but their deaths are known. Or, are you saying that beekeepers are lying about how many hives they've lost?


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## sierrabees

Kieth says: I'm looking between fact and faction here.

I don't think so. It looks to me like you are creating your own facts.

Since CCD is only poor beekeeping, can you explain why some of the best brains in the field of beekeeping research are taking time away from their primary studies and traveling all over the country to try to get to the bottom of it when all they have to do is give you a call and you can clear it all up with one phrase? "poor beekeeping" I guess these people must be just stupid or like to waste their time.


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## Keith Jarrett

Kieck wrote,

> The "why" of their deaths may be unknown, but their deaths are known. Or, are you saying that beekeepers are lying about how many hives they've lost?[/QUOTE]

Kieck, loss of hives, I think are true, theirs no reason to make false statments.

There was a graph, I saw some time ago that showed winter losses verses weather conditions the previous year.
The graph showed when favorable wheather conditions existed the bees winter losses were reduced.The same when they had poor wheather condition thier losses rose.
Keith


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## Kieck

I've seen similar comparison, Keith. What seems odd about the whole CCD thing, though, is that many of the losses occured in the fall, before typical winter losses would appear. And, the symptoms don't seem like winter losses, to me.

When I lose hives over the winter to "typical" winter losses, I find big piles of dead bees in the hives and -- usually -- low or no stores, not hives empty of bees with lots of stores.

I dunno. I haven't experienced CCD. I haven't even seen any examples first-hand of hives lost to CCD. But it sounds very real to me.

By the way, I don't put any confidence in the "cell phone" or "new pesticides" or "GM crops" or other theories for CCD. But I know people who insist that all cancers are simply states of mind, too, and I still believe cancer can be caused by very real and measurable factors.


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## Keith Jarrett

Sierrabee wrote,

Since CCD is only poor beekeeping, can you explain why some of the best brains in the field of beekeeping research are taking time away from their primary studies and traveling all over the country to try to get to the bottom of it when all they have to do is give you a call and you can clear it all up with one phrase? "poor beekeeping" I guess these people must be just stupid or like to waste their time.[/QUOTE]

Keith replies,
First of all, how many researchers are there, five, ten ??
primary studies you say, this is not?? what are they suppose to be studying. You act as if they are being taken away from some life threating study here.
This does not make any since to me, according to CCD this is life threating.
You have a way of taking things out of context and adding where needed.

Keith


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## tecumseh

carbide sezs:
Whew, I'd better be careful, wouldn't want that to happen too often. They might start calling me an old, cantankerous, pig-headed fool too. To my face, that is, not behind my back anymore.

tecumseh replies:
you seem to suggest carbide that 'they' have little capacity to inact rhetorically and even less spine.


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## tecumseh

keith sezs:
sure would like to know where that is? Tecumseh, to make loose cannon statement like this makes me wonder. You dont even know what I rent, but you somehow know that I recieved subsidy.

tecumseh lobs another round:
well keith subsidies are generally considered to be either direct or indirect in nature. the devolper that signs on for a federally subsidized loan and then lets property out to poor families (they might just be black, white, hispanic or asian) receives a direct subsidy generally in the form of lower interest and a regular check from the government in the form of rent subsidy. all the other folks (rental equipment operation thru common labors) that participate in these construction project have in fact received indirect subsidies to there income.

it is never a large surprise to discover that some folks are quite unaware of the benefits that they receive in this indirect fashion. matter of fact it is (in my experience) quite common that many of the folks that acquire direct subsidy tend to 'overlook' their subsidy also.

and now back to topic:
I personally believe that the media has hyped this issue in one way or another... that kind of what they do. this generates interest, expands audience and the bottom line. if 'they' did not do this then one would expect the folks running these media outlets to be promptly replace for not doing their jobs in an adequate fashion. it is 'every citizens' duty to be able to distinquish the fluff from the non trivial.


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## Kieck

> it is never a large surprise to discover that some folks are quite unaware of the benefits that they receive in this indirect fashion. -tecumseh


I tried to point out on a thread in "Tailgater" a while ago, when several were arguing that "organic farmers do not receive the subsidies that other farmers get," that even tax breaks are a form of subsidy. At least some people reject that "notion" completely.

To get back to the topic, too, the media has perhaps "hyped" the issue of CCD. I think beekeeping has gotten more press this year than in most previous years. And the news stories have imparted the sense, among some people at least, that all honey bees are likely to die in the U.S. because of CCD.

However, the "drama" and "hype" seem to be greater among beekeepers than among non-beekeepers. I have people ask me (fairly regularly), "Have your bees been affected by CCD? What's the deal with it, anyway?"

The "we-need-help-to-do-something-right-now" and "CCD-must-be-caused-by-(fill in the blank)" attitudes seem to crop up among beekeepers.


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## Keith Jarrett

Kieck wrote:

However, the "drama" and "hype" seem to be greater among beekeepers than among non-beekeepers. I have people ask me (fairly regularly), "Have your bees been affected by CCD? What's the deal with it, anyway?"

The "we-need-help-to-do-something-right-now" and "CCD-must-be-caused-by-(fill in the blank)" attitudes seem to crop up among beekeepers.[/QUOTE]

Kieck, very well said.

Tecumseh, I will try one more time.
If we are mandated by the state (to get tenative mapping) to provide low income housing lots, how do we benefit. We do not build homes, we do not sell homes, we do not rent homes, so if you could stay on topic and explain for me, that would be great. This is something I know a little about and so for you haven't answered my question. You have made some previous loose cannon statments, sounds good if you don't know the laws.
Keith


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## Ian

>>meanwhile Keith is digging the hole of denial a bit deeper and like I suggested quite unaware of the massive subsidy he recieves via the construction trade. he quite obviously feels entitled to this handout of public monies


Wow, tecumseh, get a handle on things a bit.
If you would go back to where Keith wrote this, and re read his post, you would probably see what he said, and what your getting at are two completely different issues.

Probably a good time to get back on topic,.


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## tecumseh

keith sezs:
If we are mandated by the state (to get tenative mapping) to provide low income housing lots, how do we benefit.

tecumseh replies:
well may I assume you are being paid for this work? would the project proceed without some form of federally subsidized interest and rent? 

beyond that any form of road, sewer, water, fire protection etc that a developer does not pay for directly (and I ain't talkin' hook up fees here) are another developers tax payer provided subsidy. do you really believe that this on any other project would proceed without some form of tax payer provided utility or service? 

not that the idea of subside is so off topic since the discussion is really about tax payer funded research for us bee keeper and does the evidence really warrant the proposed tax payer provide research dollars.

I do suspect that kiech has it quite right in that the majority of folks that get their little tax payer provided (direct or indirect) benefit most typically go down screaming swearing that the dog ate the check and that they don't need no stinkin' hand out (the is so full of self made men, don't you know). 

no real surprise here kiech since it has been my experience that one person entitlement is another person cadillac well fare queen.


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## Keith Jarrett

Tecumseh sezs,
may I assume you are being paid for this work? would the project proceed without some form of federally subsidized interest and rent? 

Keith replies,
no rent no interest , we have private funding and sell out right and no renting, kind of hard to rent a bare lot..

Tecumseh sezs,
beyond that any form of road, sewer, water, fire protection etc that a developer does not pay for directly (and I ain't talkin' hook up fees here) are another developers tax payer provided subsidy. do you really believe that this on any other project would proceed without some form of tax payer provided utility or service? 

Keith replies,
We pay for the roads, sewer, water and fire hyderants, for the prodject,all under county code and inspection, when completed we turn it over to the county, free of charge.They are the owners now and have to maintain it.

Tecumseh, this way off topic for you, I would stick with something you know.

Keith


----------



## tecumseh

keith sezs:
We pay for the roads, sewer, water and fire hyderants, for the prodject,all under county code and inspection, when completed we turn it over to the county, free of charge.They are the owners now and have to maintain it.

tecumseh replies:
so the water source just flows out of the desert. and the access roads to the project just magically appear at the properties edge without reason or cause. and the sewage just disappears without trace or smell.

oh california is such a wonderful land of fantasy and magic.

all that infrastructure just appear with keith magical waving of the wand...

get real keith... you are building a development and selling lots to speculative builder and the state requires some compliance with some form of diversity requirement. and now you are whining about being uninformed in regards to this requirement. or perhaps you just don't like the idea of all those browned skinned people devaluing the dollar value of your lots? 

and quite likely all those private funds that you speak of so proudly are in fact some small quantity of private capital and a very large quantity of borrowed money (that is quite likely to have some form of federal or state subsidized interest and or insurance attached). financial ratios (leverage) for this type of endeavor are quite often 10 to one..... so the taxpayer is once again hung out on the limb ten fold the private investor. so who is really taking the real risk here folks? 

in the final analysis the developer acquires a tidy profit (and there ain't nothin' bad about that) and the tax payer gets hung with the infrastructure cost and the long term maintance bill (you have suggest this yourself in your prior comment).

then keith sezs:
Tecumseh, this way off topic for you, I would stick with something you know.

tecumseh replies:
now that is real funny keith. funny in that if you review this thead there is little beyone conjecture and speculation in regards to this thread stated topic... ccd and the media. and there is little in your comments beyond finger pointing and laying blame on some poor smuch (in psychological speak this would be called blaming the victim) who has quite likely lost his entire livelyhood. I do wonder if keith sentiments will be the same when the shoe is on the other foot?

once again you seem quite quick to condem and demean some other person little government hand out (with a not even a thinly veiled rascist comment) but are absolutely totally un appreciative and un informed about your own larger government hand out.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

tecumseh sezs:
so the water source just flows out of the desert. and the access roads to the project just magically appear at the properties edge without reason or cause. and the sewage just disappears without trace or smell.

Keith replies: ever heard of a water meter, uitility bill (sewage,street lights ect...). "Access roads" are paid by developers, we are right now in a development where a traffic study was done by the state and said we needed to make a two lane a four lane. The other access roads were paid by previous developers.

Tecumsehsezs:
all that infrastructure just appear with keith magical waving of the wand...

Keith replies : I think it's Keith's magical wave of his check book.

Tecumseh sezs:
get real keith... you are building a development and selling lots to speculative builder and the state requires some compliance with some form of diversity requirement. and now you are whining about being uninformed in regards to this requirement.

Keith replies: once again Tecumseh takes things out of context, I'm not whinning about anything, just stating that we are not subsidized.

Tecumseh sezs:
and quite likely all those private funds that you speak of so proudly are in fact some small quantity of private capital and a very large quantity of borrowed money (that is quite likely to have some form of federal or state subsidized interest and or insurance attached). financial ratios (leverage) for this type of endeavor are quite often 10 to one..... so the taxpayer is once again hung out on the limb ten fold the private investor. so who is really taking the real risk here folks?

Keith replies: wrong again, what's funny here is Tecumseh doesn't even know where the funds come from but he immediately assumes that the goverment was involved. Man, I'm going to have to borrow his crystal ball some day.

Tecumseh sezs:
in the final analysis the developer acquires a tidy profit (and there ain't nothin' bad about that) and the tax payer gets hung with the infrastructure cost and the long term maintance bill (you have suggest this yourself in your prior comment).

Keith replies: Tecumseh, now you're a financial analysis and site development expert. Maintance bill is paid by the monthly water, sewage, electric and street lighting ect.. bill that each home ower gets once a month.

Tecumseh sezs:
little government hand out (with a not even a thinly veiled rascist comment) but are absolutely totally un appreciative and un informed about your own larger government hand out

Keith replies: there are plenty of hand outs for keepers, fsa office has several right now.

It's getting hard to soar with the eagles when your being followed by a turkey.

Keith


----------



## Keith Jarrett

tecumseh sezs:
so the water source just flows out of the desert. and the access roads to the project just magically appear at the properties edge without reason or cause. and the sewage just disappears without trace or smell.

Keith replies: ever heard of a water meter, uitility bill (sewage,street lights ect...). "Access roads" are paid by developers, we are right now in a development where a traffic study was done by the state and said we needed to make a two lane a four lane. The other access roads were paid by previous developers.

Tecumsehsezs:
all that infrastructure just appear with keith magical waving of the wand...

Keith replies : I think it's Keith's magical wave of his check book.

Tecumseh sezs:
get real keith... you are building a development and selling lots to speculative builder and the state requires some compliance with some form of diversity requirement. and now you are whining about being uninformed in regards to this requirement.

Keith replies: once again Tecumseh takes things out of context, I'm not whinning about anything, just stating that we are not subsidized.

Tecumseh sezs:
and quite likely all those private funds that you speak of so proudly are in fact some small quantity of private capital and a very large quantity of borrowed money (that is quite likely to have some form of federal or state subsidized interest and or insurance attached). financial ratios (leverage) for this type of endeavor are quite often 10 to one..... so the taxpayer is once again hung out on the limb ten fold the private investor. so who is really taking the real risk here folks?

Keith replies: wrong again, what's funny here is Tecumseh doesn't even know where the funds come from but he immediately assumes that the goverment was involved. Man, I'm going to have to borrow his crystal ball some day.

Tecumseh sezs:
in the final analysis the developer acquires a tidy profit (and there ain't nothin' bad about that) and the tax payer gets hung with the infrastructure cost and the long term maintance bill (you have suggest this yourself in your prior comment).

Keith replies: Tecumseh, now you're a financial analysis and site development expert. Maintance bill is paid by the monthly water, sewage, electric and street lighting ect.. bill that each home ower gets once a month.

Tecumseh sezs:
little government hand out (with a not even a thinly veiled rascist comment) but are absolutely totally un appreciative and un informed about your own larger government hand out

Keith replies: there are plenty of hand outs for keepers, fsa office has several right now.

It's getting hard to soar with the eagles when your being followed by a turkey.

Keith


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## Robert Brenchley

This has gone way off topic, and should really be taken offlist. Please let us return to beekeeping!


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## Ian

tecumseh, what has this got to do with the disscussion at hand!


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## tecumseh

likely very little ian beside the suggestion that one person's essential government program is another person pork barrel and one person's over dramatization is another person reality.

does anyone really believe that the question (media drama) is so to anyone who has lost 80% of their hives? 

well perhaps trying to educated turkeys (I have two dregrees in finance, have taugh college level finance cources and am a retired home/commercial space builder) is a bit more difficult that repairing someone's plumbing.

shee....


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## Keith Benson

nevermind.


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## Keith Jarrett

Blue-grass, you started off this tread,your sign off,
"Formal education will make you a living; self-education will make you a fortune"

Very well said,

I have almost the same, "there are folks that do it and there are folks that just talk about doing it"

in other words, there are doers.... and there are talkers.

Keith


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## bluegrass

It's Jim Rohn
I love the quote even though it came from someone often considered a scam artist.


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## Romahawk

bluegrass said:


> It's Jim Rohn
> "Formal education will make you a living; self-education will make you a fortune."QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Sounds sort of like
> 
> "Those that can DO those that can't TEACH"


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## tecumseh

and what does this trite statement repeated and repeated again by people that have neither experience or education have to do with media overplaying a story? 

just being a curious cat.... really...


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## chiefman

This is a Similar article i think

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070503/ap_on_sc/honeybee_die_off


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## bjerm2

Regardless if you believe it is a problem or not we all, as beekeepers, need to take notice that something is happening. Yes maybe the media is over reacting but come on there is something happening out there. I increase my hives up to 30 by fall. Do all the right things for winter, and every spring I have just a few that survive usually 4-8 hives. I have tried SMR, Russian, New World, etc. always the same thing. There are hives dead with lots of brood, food, a queen and just a few workers. I honestly am at a loss as to what is happening. I am trying not to use chemicals but .........
Has anyone else had problems like this? My problem has been going for the past 5 years. I have kept bees for over 30 years so its not like I don't know some 'stuff'. I hope the labs come up with a good explanation.
Dan


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## Keith Jarrett

Bjerm wrote
need to take notice that something is happening.

Bjerm, from july thru Feb, what is your program for healthy hives?

Bjerm sezs,
Do all the right things for winter, and every spring I have just a few that survive usually 4-8 hives. 

What are your steps for hive success?


I have kept bees for over 30 years so its not like I don't know some 'stuff'.

???

I hope the labs come up with a good explanation.
Dan[/QUOTE]

?????


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## bjerm2

Keith I keep monitoring the mite and do hive inspections on a weekly bases. Freeze my drone combs to keep the mites down. I do not harvest honey but do research on them. I am a associate member of American Association of Professional Apiculturist. I use AI on the queens, have screen bottom boards. The bees go into winter with more that 150 lbs of honey. In the spring I feed them sugar syrup to get the going with Terramycin as a preventative for foul brood. It is just upsetting to find out that all this honey is still in the hive in the spring. Unlike California my winters here are at -10F to -20F below, with up to 6 feet of snow. Maybe you have heard about NY snow fall this past winter in Oswego County and with the record cold?
Any ways it's just been the past few years that I have been having a heck of a time keeping the hives going. Surprising that when I started out 30 years ago with a swarm, built up to 100+ hives, I did make enough $ to pay for my house and an education for my wife at SU and also pay off my college education.
Now I have been told that there is a gut parasite that 'might be' the problem, another is a fungus might also be causing a problem. The beekeeping industry is having a bad time keeping ahead of all this, good thing I'm not in beekeeping for a living but more of a hobby.


----------



## bjerm2

Keith I keep monitoring the mite and do hive inspections on a weekly bases. Freeze my drone combs to keep the mites down. I do not harvest honey but do research on them. I am a associate member of American Association of Professional Apiculturist. I use AI on the queens, have screen bottom boards. The bees go into winter with more that 150 lbs of honey. In the spring I feed them sugar syrup to get the going with Terramycin as a preventative for foul brood. It is just upsetting to find out that all this honey is still in the hive in the spring. Unlike California my winters here are at -10F to -20F below, with up to 6 feet of snow. Maybe you have heard about NY snow fall this past winter in Oswego County and with the record cold?
Any ways it's just been the past few years that I have been having a heck of a time keeping the hives going. Surprising that when I started out 30 years ago with a swarm, built up to 100+ hives, I did make enough $ to pay for my house and an education for my wife at SU and also pay off my college education.
Now I have been told/read that there is a gut parasite that 'might be' the problem, another is a fungus that might also be causing a problem. The beekeeping industry is having a bad time keeping ahead of all this, good thing I'm not in beekeeping for a living but more of a hobby.


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## Keith Jarrett

Bjerm wrote,
I keep monitoring the mite and do hive inspections on a weekly bases.

Bjerm, is this a sticky board test? and if so , what method are you using to kill the mites?

Bjerm sezs,
It is just upsetting to find out that all this honey is still in the hive in the spring.

I feel for your fustration.

Bjerm sezs,
Maybe you have heard about NY snow fall this past winter in Oswego County and with the record cold?

I did heard something like 10 feet of snow with no where to go.

Bjerm sezs,
Now I have been told/read that there is a gut parasite that 'might be' the problem, another is a fungus that might also be causing a problem. 

Bjerm, have you had a chance to send out sample to the lab for test (Nosema)? I beleive its about 50 bucks or so.

Keith


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## bjerm2

No sticky board. I should but have not done so yet. I keep the mites down by using SMR, and Russians. I also have drone brood frames that I freeze once the cells are capped. I have a frame in each box and the hives are 3 boxes high so there is a lot of drone brood that gets frozen. I try doing the freeze every week from each box. As I said I do not have the bees for making a profit but am researching them and trying to limit the chemicals. I have a feeling that this might take a long time to get a bee that is tolerant of the environment and pest we are encountering. Seems every time we get a step up we go down two. Right now we are just getting into spring. In fact my snow just disappeared 2 weeks ago! 
As far as sending samples to the labs that is on the agenda. 
Your statement on snow is an understatement. I plowed to get to work, plowed to get into the house (house is back 550 feet from road, 's' driveway, 18 feet wide with a hammer head by the house) and yes shoveled the roof, dog kennels (got 20 Siberian huskies) and my deck that is in back of the house. I was willing to share my snow but no one wanted it. This kept up for over 6 days. I hated the routine and it was getting old fast.
Thanks for the reply.
Dan


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## hummingberd

Does any one feel like we're lucky that there has been coverage about the loss of bees? I feel that if the media wasn't covering this, beekeepers would be complaining that people didn't appreciate what we do, and how we suffer.
I know that the media is a business without a conscience. Media outlets are unaffected by the emotion caused from the lack or excess coverage of a "story." I feel fortunate that the media has picked up on this story. I believe it has helped to restore an appreciation of the honeybee that was taken away from beekeepers during the advent of the Africanized Honey Bee infiltration. I also believe that it has helped to spark an interest in people who know nothing about the keeping of bees. I am also thankful that the losses haven't been greater. That being "said" I feel for the commercial apiaries who lost so much. I think migratory beekeeping is hard on the bees, but I have bought my fair share of honey off the shelves at the local store. And I do feel aggravated by the misinformation that is printed, read, discussed and blatantly twisted to make their story a little more dramatic. So what is at the heart of this gripe???

Thanks for your respectful responses...

-K-


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## Keith Jarrett

HummingBerd wrote,
Does any one feel like we're lucky that there has been coverage about the loss of bees? 

Keith replies,
Right now many of us are doing damage control. Almond guys are wanting the boarders open because they are worryed about the U.S. supply because of this so called CCD.

HummingBerd sezs,
I feel that if the media wasn't covering this, beekeepers would be complaining that people didn't appreciate what we do, and how we suffer.

Keith replies,
You hit the nail on the head when you say "SUFFER" this seems to be the main story line.

HummingBerd sezs,
I am also thankful that the losses haven't been greater.

Keith replies,
Take a look on BEE-L this week, they are talking about the problems that were at the ROOT of some keepers that were in the news with this CCD . 

HummingBerd sezs,
And I do feel aggravated by the misinformation that is printed, read, discussed and blatantly twisted to make their story a little more dramatic. So what is at the heart of this gripe??...

Keith replies,
Very well said HummimgBerd, the good keepers are doing damage control... from these other yahoo keepers that road the wheels off the CCD bus.


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## tecumseh

hummingberg ask:
And I do feel aggravated by the misinformation that is printed, read, discussed and blatantly twisted to make their story a little more dramatic. So what is at the heart of this gripe???

tecumseh replies:
by using such words as 'blantantly twisted' you are suggesting that you have some insight or crystal ball into other peoples intentions and/or motivations.

what is the gripe??? well evidently some people don't really think it is part of a journalist job description to make a story interesting, or that a journalist just might find it necessary to diverge from industrial jargon just to relay some informaton to the man on the street.

and as for myself... I do get some satisfaction in the number of unknown people that just walk up to me and inquire about the status of my bees... that anyone beyond myself should see some value in these small and mostly overlooked creatures truely floors me... which for some reason reminds me of an old b.dylan lyric... 

you don't know what you got till it's gone...

the best of seasons to ya' all....


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