# I have a Plan. It may not be THE plan but it is a plan.



## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

I really am not sure what to do but I have a plan. Let me set the scene: newbee beekeeper installed a package in late April that has since then expanded into two deeps and a medium honey super. All frames have been drawn out to some degree including the honey super that was put on about 4 to 5 weeks ago. Overall there are good honey reserves but perhaps not a lot of pollen; I have found maybe 1.5 to 2 frames in the lower deep. Up till now, the egg laying and brood development has been excellent. The number of bees right now is staggering. The bees are very docile and good natured but in the last few weeks the egg laying has been decreasing and brood pattern spotty. I still have several frames of brood developing but I’ve noticed that the bees seem to leave vacated comb empty; there is some that has nectar put in but a lot of it in the bottom brood seems unused. They seem to want to work higher in the hive up more towards the top and super area. A quick inspection yesterday revealed that there are eggs present although not a lot.
Queen cups are regularly produced and disposed of, at least 4 to 5 started each week. Once I found two that had eggs + royal jelly but that was a few weeks back that were also disposed of. I have had the hardest time finding the Queen; only once after the package was installed did I find her (unmarked) and I have been unable to find her since although I am seeing eggs. I know this is problematic.
Talking to people there could be a few factors at play inhibiting the Queen from laying eggs: a) the hive is packed with bees right now, do they need more? b) pollen reserves are not great so perhaps the queen is assessing food reserves? 
The Plan: I’ve decided to go ahead and make a split and have left two frames with cups to develop. As soon as (hopefully) eggs are deposited in those I’ll make the split. I also might have an outside Queen available to me in another week or two that I will also use to make a split. Ideally I would like to make a split with the original Queen (to simulate a swarm) but not having her marked and my inability to find her is frustrating that effort. At least if I can make two nucs and overwinter two other Queens using the ample honey supplies already built up (+ supplementing with pollen patties) then my chances of having a Queen heading into the Spring increase. If the original Queen is eventually superseded due to poor performance then I will let that occur naturally. Also in the meantime, until splits are made, I will add another medium honey super to keep the bees occupied with expansion plans and keep an eye out for swarm behavior.
That’s the plan. Any feedback?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I would add the super and concentrate on learning how to find the queen.

I would not split as you are betting everything on having enough resources (not just food) but enough _bees_ as well to support three colonies through a northern winter. (If I understand you correctly.)

My own bees in upstate (north of Albany) have finished their last huge flow (basswood) but are making do on milkweed (and soon Joe Pye Weed, Japanese knotweed, purple loosestrife and goldenrod). While the splendid volume of the early summer flow is past - and my hives are behemoths by now - I think they will have enough pollen for their needs. Or if I feel a need, then I can slap on some pollen patties.

What is the state of your mite numbers? Mites can cause a slackening off of egg laying, just as much as the shift over from the boom-times of Spring and early summer, especially for a newly installed hive.

Since this is your first year, you may not recognize the normal ebb and flow of brood production and be erroneously thinking it is a problem that needs solving. Dividing your hive, when you don't have any extra combs in reserve to give the new splits means that not only do they have to make new queens, and divide the stores, but they also have to draw additional full sets of combs, as well. All at the point when we're over the peak of the flow. Smaller hives at this time will be more vulnerable to robbing while they are buildng themsleves back up at precisely the time when all hives have more robbing risk because the flow is tapering back, (not _off _as it does in very Southern areas.)

When reading on a nationwide forum like this its extremely important to filter the information and comments by the locality. In NY we don't generally have a "summer dearth", with a corresponding drop to almost no nectar and pollen that is common in the south, west, and particularly in CA in this extraordinarily drought-y year.

If you think your bees are truly slacking off laying to an untoward degree, I would put energy into finding out why. and addressing that, first. If they are crowded - give them more space. If they have mite pressure - fix that. 

A well-stocked first-year hive (full of healthy winter bees and as much reserved stores as you can give them) will have a much better chance of surviving, and likely leap out of winter ready to make honey and more colonies, if you want them. A strong colony pared down into_ de minumus _parts simply because you can do that, will have a less-certain future. The idea of making nucs "as insurance policies for winter losses" works when you have extra resouces to do it, but not when you have to weaken your (only) existing colony to do it. And that goes double for a new colony in its establishment year, in the northeast. Did you know that in scarcely a month your bees will be starting to make the first rounds of wintering bees? If you split today, then your hive would only be barely QR again before having to put all its resources into that crucial task.

That's just my take on it, YMMV. Is there an experienced beekeeper you can ask over to look through your hive with you? 

Enj.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

You are past swarm season - I wouldn't be making any manipulations based on them swarming at this point. Your climate is fairly similar to my own - our's starts and ends a little later (basswood is in full boom right now). The main flow is either over or coming to an end. You could still make a split if you ordered a mated queen. Should be easy to find a local one this time of year. If you want both hives to draw out another 10 frames to go into winter with two double deep hives, you need to be prepared to feed from now until the fall flow.

Brood rearing naturally begins to tail off this time of year. The colony will move up to keep in contact with it's stores. 1-2 frames of pollen is a good reserve for this time of year when pollen isn't that hard to come by and they have tailed back brood rearing.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

enjambres said:


> I would add the super and concentrate on learning how to find the queen.
> 
> 
> When reading on a nationwide forum like this its extremely important to filter the information and comments by the locality. In NY we don't generally have a "summer dearth", with a corresponding drop to almost no nectar and pollen that is common in the south, west, and particularly in CA in this extraordinarily drought-y year.
> Enj.


No need for the additional super now.

In NY, particularly where the OP is located and where I am located, there is most certainly a Summer Dearth.
During the dearth there is almost no nectar incoming but likely pollen is being collected.
Early Goldenrod has saved many a bee colony by coming on at a critical time during Summer dearth, same with chicory.


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## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

I can't stress how much I really, really appreciate the comments you all took time to make. It has shifted my thinking completely and I am grateful for that. As a newbie I struggle to see the full picture and had not been thinking about mites or the onset of winter. Yes Winter is Coming and I know nothing John Snow (Game of Thrones reference). 

Need to research now how to asses mite levels and will really try and find the queen


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

paying attention to mites/mite levels now is very important. very important.

you saw eggs a day or so ago, consider her good for now and check better when she starts back up laying in greater quantity late August, early September.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I'm betting they were trying to supercede your queen which has started to fail, which is why you don't blindly remove queencells when you find them. It's something you will learn with time, they don't make queencells because everything is fine and dandy except when swarming, which means the trick is to figure out what their intent is when you find active cells. Too many newbies get caught up with the location and placement of cells in reference to swarming or superceding when in fact, placement has little to do with it. It just takes time to learn what the bees are doing and what types of cells you have. For example, I opened a hive that had filled a 5X5 setup and the second frame I pulled had about 12 cells on the bottom of the frame, fully capped. While most would immediately assume swarming, I dug further to find I had no queen, but 3-4 frames with lots of queencells on them. Taking a closer look, it was easy to determine all of them were emergency cells based on how they were constructed, many were runty and none were started from actual cups. I don't even know what happened to the queen other than she was lost unexpectedly and I hadn't opened the hive that would have lined up time wise with her demise. I ended up pulling 2 frames for a split for a new queen and splitting the rest of the frames evenly into two nucs and now have two nicely mated queens.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

My plan would be to find the old queen. If you cannot find her then give them a
mated queen since she is available. 2 weeks will give you plenty of time to find her.
With the coming of Fall and winter fast approaching it is too late to build up a split for your
snowy winter months. JR is right that some cells are supercedure cells no matter where is the cell
location. I have a Cordovan queen that they tried to supercede her all summer long by making all kinds of weird queen
cells at the bottom, in the middle and to the sides. Some are short while other are long. They did not
kill this queen like the other hives where the laying queen suddenly disappeared. I think the bees had balled them all! 
Must be the mild summer we're having here. It doesn't matter since I will keep on cutting those cells out to make more
new nucs. So keep that mite level low and give this hive a new queen to over winter them.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> I'm betting they were trying to supercede your queen which has started to fail, which is why you don't blindly remove queencells when you find them.


Where did the OP say he removed any queen cells?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Pooh Bear said:


> I really am not sure what to do but I have a plan. Let me set the scene: newbee beekeeper installed a package in late April that has since then expanded into two deeps and a medium honey super. All frames have been drawn out to some degree including the honey super that was put on about 4 to 5 weeks ago. Overall there are good honey reserves but perhaps not a lot of pollen; I have found maybe 1.5 to 2 frames in the lower deep. Up till now, the egg laying and brood development has been excellent. The number of bees right now is staggering. The bees are very docile and good natured but in the last few weeks the egg laying has been decreasing and brood pattern spotty. I still have several frames of brood developing but I’ve noticed that the bees seem to leave vacated comb empty; there is some that has nectar put in but a lot of it in the bottom brood seems unused. They seem to want to work higher in the hive up more towards the top and super area. A quick inspection yesterday revealed that there are eggs present although not a lot.
> Queen cups are regularly produced and disposed of, at least 4 to 5 started each week. Once I found two that had eggs + royal jelly but that was a few weeks back that were also disposed of. I have had the hardest time finding the Queen; only once after the package was installed did I find her (unmarked) and I have been unable to find her since although I am seeing eggs. I know this is problematic.
> Talking to people there could be a few factors at play inhibiting the Queen from laying eggs: a) the hive is packed with bees right now, do they need more? b) pollen reserves are not great so perhaps the queen is assessing food reserves?
> The Plan: I’ve decided to go ahead and make a split and have left two frames with cups to develop. As soon as (hopefully) eggs are deposited in those I’ll make the split. I also might have an outside Queen available to me in another week or two that I will also use to make a split. Ideally I would like to make a split with the original Queen (to simulate a swarm) but not having her marked and my inability to find her is frustrating that effort. At least if I can make two nucs and overwinter two other Queens using the ample honey supplies already built up (+ supplementing with pollen patties) then my chances of having a Queen heading into the Spring increase. If the original Queen is eventually superseded due to poor performance then I will let that occur naturally. Also in the meantime, until splits are made, I will add another medium honey super to keep the bees occupied with expansion plans and keep an eye out for swarm behavior.
> That’s the plan. Any feedback?


Wait until the queen cells are sealed to pull them. Leave a couple. If the cells are on the center of the frame they are supersedure. The bees know what they are doing. If they are on the bottom, they are probably swarm cells. Pull them for splits or destroy them.


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## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

About a month ago if not longer I had two queen cups that had eggs deposited in them. I did away with them then because the queen and hive were performing wonderfully: lots of bees, brood and perfect laying pattern. There seemed no point in offing the queen with such stellar performance.

As a side note, I am taking a beekeeping class and am tending to three other hives started from packages. Each one of those hives (same source as mine) has had queen cups and cells produced on a regular basis. I would say each inspection is bound to find cups and this includes those hives that performed even better than mine. In short I am not convinced that the mere presence of cups and cells is a clear indication of a supersedure intent. It would seem to be more related to swarming which is what two of those class hives have actually done.


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## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

BTW those class hives were set up to see how they behaved and to do manipulations. All were set up on different foundations so we got to see how that affected comb development, some we did splits on to learn the process of creating nucs and some we let cells develop to learn what happens when a hive swarms and what the aftermath looks like. As an observation, the difference in bee temperament with and without a queen was quite remarkable. 

We haven't covered mites yet in detail so I need to get up to speed on that


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Pooh Bear - Just a mention, as you were going to study up on mites, to check out www.scientificbeekeeping.com , where Randy Oliver has written some excellent articles on Integrated Pest Management in regard to bees. Worth spending a few days reading and implementing.

Incidentally, many of us target August 15th as the date of our harshest treatment against mites, be it oxalic acid, formic acid, fluvalinate, or other treatment. It is also a good time to remove any remaining drone brood. If you have drawn drone comb, such as Pierco green plastic drone foundation, already drawn out into comb, now would be a good time to put it in the hives, and pull it out 20 to 22 days from now.

Best of luck!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

zhiv9 said:


> Where did the OP say he removed any queen cells?


Is it not from the OP. He's giving his own experiences and warning to the newbie.
JR is cautioning that new beekeepers tend to take out all the cells thinking that the hive still has
a queen when in fact they are making new cells to replaced the missing queen or about to replace the old queen. That is why the
new beekeepers often removed all the capped cells. He said don't do that. I almost did with a queen less hive that I requeened 2 weeks ago.
Now with the cells and a laying queen gone they are in trouble. Time to get another queen or make some from the eggs/larvae.


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## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

Update: so I did a long inspection yesterday hunting for the Queen. The bees were OK with it initially but towards the end the temperament changed to one of annoyance. Long story short I eventually found the queen, marked her, and noticied that she has started laying again. Queen cups still had no eggs deposited so I decided to remove them. I didn't add a super as I don't want yet another box to manipulate since they have comb to fill in the lower deeps (recently vacated by brood).

Haven't checked mite levels yet but at this stage I think I'm going to leave them alone and do no splits or add boxes. Thanks for the feedback folks


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Congratulations on spotting, capturing, and marking your queen.  That's a milestone for a new beekeeper. It sure gets easier after the first few times, she just sort of "jumps" out of the crowd and into your attention with that big, long abdomen and her big, bare thorax.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> Update: so I did a long inspection yesterday hunting for the Queen. The bees were OK with it initially but towards the end the temperament changed to one of annoyance. Long story short I eventually found the queen, marked her, and noticied that she has started laying again. Queen cups still had no eggs deposited so I decided to remove them. I didn't add a super as I don't want yet another box to manipulate since they have comb to fill in the lower deeps (recently vacated by brood).
> 
> Haven't checked mite levels yet but at this stage I think I'm going to leave them alone and do no splits or add boxes. Thanks for the feedback folks


Why did she stop laying? Are you sure you don't have a new queen in there now because the old one got superceded? I haven't had a hive stop superceding a queen no matter what I do....


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## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

it's not that she stopped laying it's just that there seemed to be a lot less of it. I'm pretty sure this is the original queen, for one, I haven't let any cells grow to full term and second, there are still a large number of bees in the hive. 

I've seen the remnants of a hive that swarmed and that's not my hive. I've marked her now so it should make life much easier in the future to keep track of developments


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Hives don't swarm with supercedure, just that the queen gets replaced.


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## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

Well that's good to know. Still, to my knowledge no cells developed to hatching. Its possible one was created in the slatted bottom rack area but I have never seen any comb develop there.


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

Pooh Bear said:


> Update: so I did a long inspection yesterday hunting for the Queen. The bees were OK with it initially but towards the end the temperament changed to one of annoyance. Long story short I eventually found the queen, marked her, and noticied that she has started laying again. Queen cups still had no eggs deposited so I decided to remove them. I didn't add a super as I don't want yet another box to manipulate since they have comb to fill in the lower deeps (recently vacated by brood).
> 
> Haven't checked mite levels yet but at this stage I think I'm going to leave them alone and do no splits or add boxes. Thanks for the feedback folks


good luck with your first hive. as a future reference, please add pics here. we can both look at the same thing and I will see something different than you, and even with good verbal skills, a pic will help us help you more. 

bees will make toy cells, a lot of them all along the summer , and you need to figure out what those are. I trained lots of people, and they all jump up when they see a toy and go, look there is a queen cell on the frame. also , you need to treat for mites. one treatment does not suffice, so you would need to do several traditional treatments. I use apivar, and I buy a pack of 10 strips for $34, it might be too much for you, for just one hive, but if you find other people interested in it, you might be able to split the cost. it works great, and if you do that it will be active for up to 6 weeks. use 2 strips in the brood chamber, it will work great. 

another thing about mites, when you see them, it is too late. you need to treat preventively at first until you learn the signs. so unless you want to go without treatment, I would just go ahead and treat. me, as a rule of thumb every new nuc I make gets 1 strip of apivar. what happens is as the bees hatch, and the queen starts laying, there will be a point with no capped brood, and then is when you will hit the most mites, and reduce the no the nucs I made in june got one strip, and will get another one in December. that is when I plan to treat all my hives, because here in the south it's hot, and I can do it. you might have to do it right before the cold, so they have that 6 weeks of protection. 

do not open hives when temperatures are below 50F. unless you absolutely have to. 

it is too late to make a successful split in your area, from what other people say , that live there, and also from my experience. make sure your one hive is doing good, has enough supplies and will pass winter. you will notice, that as soon as spring comes, and they start to bring pollen, or you feed pollen patty, they will explode, so you will be able to make splits on it right there. you can do a 50/50 split, or more, but you have to do it early season, to give them the chance to build up, if going up in numbers is your thing. 

I have a few 1 frame splits, (actually 1 brood and 1 honey) that I made all along the summer. I made 5 like that and used the queens to replace old queens when I noticed they were going out. I have one left, and I already have a plan for her 

also, the queen does not decide anything. bees decide everything for her. from what she eats, to where she lays. if there is a slowdown in honey intake, and pollen, they will stop her from laying, by feeding her less powerful food I would say. my bees also slowed down since the end of the flow around the 20th of june. they are only about 3-5 frames of brood now, but I noticed they started to lay again last weekend. so I hope a honey flow if coming.
keep reading and those beekeeping classes seem like a great idea. gongrats on finding the queen, and marking her. it is going to help you out from now on. a piece of advice, when you inspect, do not worry so much about finding her, as to finding eggs. that is most important. if you can't find eggs, then look for her. another tip, usually between 10 am and noon, she should be on the brood frames, then take a brake when it gets hot, go eat , play in the pool, and then she will be back to laying around 3pm or so  it makes it easy to find once you learn some patterns. of course it all depends of so many factors, but usually, at any time, do not expect her to be on anything else but brood frames. so look there first. 
what I do , sometimes, to find her is ( in my 10 frame hives) I pull the feeder out, then the second frame after that, and I go to the other end, and pull the second frame from the side. this isolates the brood frames, and then I start looking for her in a eliminatory way, by checking the 3rd frame opposite where I start work, then I go back to where I started work. then back over. that way, in the space opened by removing the feeder, I can place the frames I checked....and as I open more, I keep making room for the frames. once you get the hang of it, you will find her in no time. 

welcome to the beekeeping family


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Might want to re-think your "kill all queen cells" methodology. As a new beek I was of that mindset as well due to lack of equipment and the know-how to assess the colony and decide properly about "what to do with them queen cells".

Having 20 colonies...one colony seems to always give me just what I need when I need it so I have to be very cautious about killing queen cells. For instance have inspected a hive that had a new mated queen, found a queen cell, saved it, and within an hour needed it to put into a very hot colony that got way too mean. Suppose I'd just hacked it out and smushed it onto the side of the hive body I was working on. 

I'm waiting on that cell to hatch now. It's in a cage. Once she's out I'm pinching the mean queen. If that don't work plan B is...cloake board and grafts.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Sometimes the virgin fail to come back after her mating flight. Or she
went into the wrong hive and got balled on her return flight. So rather than
pinching the mean queen, why not put her in a nuc first. Then when the virgin queen returned and
is laying then you can get rid of the mean queen. Another way is to combine the newly mated
queen hive with the mean hive taking out the mean queen first. I use a flexible plastic barrier
with a small hole in the center for my hive combining. Be very careful in putting a virgin queen inside
a queen right hive that has recently been queen less. She might get balled!


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