# Inadvertent Package Install Experiment



## honeybeebee (Jan 27, 2013)

What's done is done...i'd wait a few days ...let them settle down...don't know much about tbh's...and just alittle about bees......tough to do a combine with a tbh I would think...wait for better replies


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

Wouldn't worry too much. My only worry would be they may kill the queens since you released them directly (sounds like what you did) w/out a getting aquatinted period. That's why the queen cages have candy at one end. By the time the bees chew through and let the queen out they are used to her scent and consider her their own (usually takes 2-3 days to release her).

Check in a week or so for eggs.


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## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

Yeah I am not sure what is going on. I have read a few threads lately where the queen was being directly released and the beekeeper is either concerned with that process or did not know that is a bad practice. She definitely needs time to fit in...although she has spent some time with them prior to the install. Sometimes it takes sometimes it doesn't. Always ere on the side of caution and let the bees do the releasing. Hope it all works out for ya though. :thumbsup:

P.S. Nice looking Top bars!


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

It sounds like you direct-released an unfamiliar queen into each group of bees. You may wind up with two groups of queenless bees and two dead queens, or somehow each group of bees may accept the queens they were given. One result is more likely than the other, but both are possibilities.

Your "pivot" point was directly releasing the replacement queen to the group of bees you thought were traveling with a dead queen. Even if those bees had been queenless it would be quite risky to direct-release an unfamiliar queen to them. The direct-release technique is usually reserved for a queen that has been riding with and thereby exposed to the bees for several days before being released to them.

Then, if you also direct-released the second unfamiliar queen to the second group of bees, also, you have doubled your chances of losing at least one of these queens. I hope you keep us updated on your progress. I am hoping that you beat the odds and both colonies accept the queens you've given them and establish well.

Queenless bees rarely make much comb, so that could be an indicator of their situations, for you - vs - having to sort through clusters of bees looking for queens. Also, queenless bees often make a mournful, sad, sound, if you listen closely (I'm not kidding). You would need to put your ear to the hive to hear it well.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Dead queens in.their cage in the package often indicate the presence of another queen...virgin or mated.

Deknow


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

There are actually numerous plausible scenarios that may come about.

The bees who had the unfamiliar queen trusted upon them will probably ball the queen and she will be dead. Especially since there was another queen present at the time. It would have been the hormones of the ruling monarch they would have been governing the hive, even though she was caged. The queen that was placed in the queen less hive may have a chance and a good one if you did not just dump her in but left her in the cage for the bees to release. However since that hive was the one with the dead in the cage queen, it is possible that there may already be a queen in that colony that killed the caged queen. It the new queen survives, there is also a possibility that a scout from her original colony may discover his ruler amidst the other hive and bring the hive to her. Which may or may not result in an out and out battle between the two hives. Depending on their genetic proximity. Then again the bees in the first colony may look at life as no more that a swarming of their original hive and grow a new queen. if you provide them with frames with viable eggs. Just to mention a few! But you have now learned the most important thing about beekeeping. 
It is not a hurry up, breeze through, short cut, acronym using type thing! ATTENTION TO DETAIL. A concentrated methodical approach to every aspect is the barest of essentials required to achieve a consistent degree of success and viability.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

I like EVERYTHING about your hives' design, and I see no room for improvement... great ideas.


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## honeybeebee (Jan 27, 2013)

I enjoyed the pics..


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

dnichols said:


> Yeah I am not sure what is going on. I have read a few threads lately where the queen was being directly released and the beekeeper is either concerned with that process or did not know that is a bad practice. She definitely needs time to fit in...although she has spent some time with them prior to the install. Sometimes it takes sometimes it doesn't. Always ere on the side of caution and let the bees do the releasing. Hope it all works out for ya though. :thumbsup:
> 
> P.S. Nice looking Top bars!


Thanks for the compliment on the bars.

The idea for releasing the queen was based on reading a lot of Michael Bush's thoughts on the matter - mostly in context of avoiding cross combing from hanging the queen.

That said, the sheer stupidity of releasing the queen in the first hive that I knew to be a replacement was utter stupidity on my part alone.

I spent the last three weeks mentally walking through the installment process and for whatever reason didn't stop to think and readjust the plan when the shop told me the package had a dead queen.

As for the second queen... I think I just choked when mid-installment I realized I had placed the replacement in the wrong hive - and I just executed the plan I started with without thinking the release aspect through.

Hate to learn newby lessons at the expense of two packages http://www.beesource.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

I checked the hives from a short distance several times today. 

This morning around 0800, hive one was pretty busy already while hive two showed very little activity.

At noon, both were bustling a lot - both seemed a bit frantic in activity, but I don't really have an eye or ear properly calibrated.

Late afternoon, hive one seemed very busy but very calm - lots of bees coming and going but little frantic flying in front of the hive.

Hive two at the same time was also very busy, but noticeably more excited and more bees in the air around the entrance.

Resisting the urge to take a look inside until at least tomorrow night, maybe Tuesday.

Should I sit tight in general or try and find two new queens sooner than later?










ETA - and thanks all for both the well deserved admonishments and the compliments on the builds!


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

Bet the "frantic" activity is just bees orienting to their new home. Will probably see this from time to time for the next few days and then every once in a while once new brood is emerging. All you can do is sit tight for a few days. I'd watch them from the entrance to see if a lot of pollen starts to come in in a few days and also gauge their temperament. If they completely ignore you and go about their business when you are right at the entrance then that is a good sign. Queenless colonies sometimes get a little pissy. 

I'd open them up in a week and look for comb and for eggs in the comb (look at the combs in the middle of the cluster). As soon as I saw some eggs or other brood (like fat larvae or capped pupae) I'd put it back together and leave them alone. If it was the first frame you pulled then you don't need to pull any more. If nothing then order the queens. If one hive is good and the other does not look good then take one frame of eggs and give to the hive w/ no brood. They will quickly raise a new queen if they don't have one. If you are not sure you can see eggs you can wait a little longer (10-14 days) and you should see the first capped pupae by then.

The longer you wait, the longer before you can get a new queen if needed. If they seem pissy all the time in the next few days you probably need a queen. If the weather stays nice the workers should live for a little bit--though they tend to die more quickly w/out a queen from what I've read.

Don't worry about the mistakes--dumber ones will be made, trust me. The more I pre-plan the more I seem to screw up. More than likely at least one queen will survive despite what the books say.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Are you seeing any pollen coming in? That is often a sign of happiness with their queen.


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

JClark said:


> Bet the "frantic" activity is just bees orienting to their new home. Will probably see this from time to time for the next few days and then every once in a while once new brood is emerging. All you can do is sit tight for a few days. I'd watch them from the entrance to see if a lot of pollen starts to come in in a few days and also gauge their temperament. If they completely ignore you and go about their business when you are right at the entrance then that is a good sign. Queenless colonies sometimes get a little pissy.
> 
> *I'd open them up in a week and look for comb and for eggs in the comb (look at the combs in the middle of the cluster). As soon as I saw some eggs or other brood (like fat larvae or capped pupae) I'd put it back together and leave them alone. If it was the first frame you pulled then you don't need to pull any more. If nothing then order the queens. If one hive is good and the other does not look good then take one frame of eggs and give to the hive w/ no brood. They will quickly raise a new queen if they don't have one. If you are not sure you can see eggs you can wait a little longer (10-14 days) and you should see the first capped pupae by then.*
> 
> ...


Thanks - this is the approach I think I will take.

They both seemed pretty calm this morning - a lot of coming and going. 

I will check again at midday and hopefully determine if they are indeed bringing in pollen.

Another question - I put a baggie feeder in each hive when I installed them. 

They are on the hive floor to the rear, adjacent the partition I put in about 12 bars back.

Should I ignore that for the week too, or pop a few of the back bars to check/replace it?


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

Roto said:


> Should I ignore that for the week too, or pop a few of the back bars to check/replace it?


You can check that when you like. Just don't want to unnecessarily disrupt what the bees are doing in the cluster--the fresh white wax is fragile too. IF you have a flow on they may not even touch it. Every package I've installed in the spring has never touched the sugar water I offered. We have HUGE spring flows here--just got started 2-3 days ago.

From my experience it takes the bees a few days before they really start to bring in pollen from a package--like 3-4. Have to make a place to put it first.


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

Dupe post, see below


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

JClark said:


> You can check that when you like. Just don't want to unnecessarily disrupt what the bees are doing in the cluster--the fresh white wax is fragile too. IF you have a flow on they may not even touch it. Every package I've installed in the spring has never touched the sugar water I offered. We have HUGE spring flows here--just got started 2-3 days ago.
> 
> From my experience it takes the bees a few days before they really start to bring in pollen from a package--like 3-4. Have to make a place to put it first.


I did take a quick peek in both hives late in the day today.

Both were pretty calm having me around, which I thought was a good sign.

I only removed the last bar before the divider long enough to check on the bag feeders and both had been heavily used.

Not wanting to bother the cluster, I didn't open it up more... but I did snap a quick video - which ended up off center and upside down, but appears to show a good cluster and some comb formation.

I'll prepare some more syrup and restock them in a couple days.

Thanks again all for the input!

Click picture for short video:


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

Well - It's been a week so I inspected both hives mid-day, temps were near 60 and sunny.

Hive 1, which had been externally showing more activity initially is a disaster. I don't know if calling it dead is appropriate, but it is not far from it. There was only one small stub of comb (3" long) on one bar and a few lines of wax on two other bars. There was a small cluster of bees on the comb, the rest of the bees were massed along one wall... almost zero activity. Few bees even tried to fly, most looked immobile. I did see several hive beetles and there looked like Nosema stains near the entrance.

Hive 2 was a study in opposites. Hive entrance was very busy and workers were definitely bringing in pollen. There were 4 or 5 bars with significant comb built out and heavy festooning. All were drawn straight and I only removed one to avoid disturbing their current success. 

Is Hive 1 a lost cause? I put in another bag feeder and some bees did come over (walk) to it and show interest. I can't tell if they are too far gone to try moving a bar of comb/brood from the other hive over or not.


Hive 1 Pic:









Hive 1 (Sad) Video




Hive 2 (Healthy) Video


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

Yeah, something doesn't seem right w/ hive 1. Even if queenless they should be moving around and flying--and usually acting more irritated than normal. Almost look like some kind of exposure to something harmful. Those spots are just normal bee poop--nothing bad about that. Bees just didn't fly off to do it. Maybe its severe depression from lack of a queen. Also, you really shouldn't have hive beetles since there is no hive yet so they may have come w/ the package.

Sometimes I get a few bees clustering outside my hive on the ground that look similar (10 or 20). I just assumed they were infested w/ tracheal/varroa and voluntarily evicted themselves.

Hive 2 looks like what I'd expect. If you can find a comb w/ eggs and make sure the queen isn't on it I'd put that in there ASAP w/ the bees and all. If they are not affected by something else then this might spark them back to life. If not, then they are probably a lost cause.


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

I went out today expecting to see Hive 1 totally dead and instead it was full of activity.

I opened it up and found nothing what like I'd captured in the video above. Every non-dead bee was very active and they were festooned on several bars building comb. The bottom board is literally covered in dead bees though, probably close to 15% of the package by looks.

The only thing I can think of for the change was perhaps they were/are so disorganized that they didn't tolerate the overnight drop the night before (the video) to the high 30s - granted I didn't open the hive until mid-day with temps around 60. I dunno. Today was in the 70s and they were very active.

I did look in Hive 2 for a donor bar, but despite there being 4 or 5 bars with comb similar to what I showed in the video above, none looked to have capped brood - or at least that I could see. Would 7 days be enough time for it to be capped or should I have been looking closer for open cells w/eggs? I could move a bar tomorrow if that's the case or I may be able to source a queen nearby if need be.

And a few other beginner question: I think I may have seen the queen on one of the bars in hive 2... are they known to make a distinct noise when agitated? I wasn't positive it was a queen or a large drone, but whichever it was it kept it's eyes on me and beat a distinct hum with it's wings.

2nd question - when watching the landing board for hive 2, I noticed what I believe were some large drones coming and going - is that a bad sign (as in swarm or absconding)? 

Thanks again for the council!


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

Re: beetles. I did find hive beetles in the emptied package boxes.

And thanks for clearing up my concern regarding the stains.


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## thebalvenie (Feb 25, 2013)

great thread!

some very good stuff in here for newbies in general.

also,

like the look of your hives  

thanks for the pics and sharing Roto

best of luck and please keep us posted on your bees...i'm interested to see how things go for you.


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

I think I answered a few of my own (beginner) questions (likely too soon to be capped brood and the bee humming at me was definitely a drone... a few did it again today).

I made a closer inspection of a few bars of Hive 2 (good hive) and did see eggs in the cells. So with that confirmed, I moved one bar over to Hive 1 that looked to have a good mix of brood and stores, along with the attendants. I spent about five minutes studying the bar to confirm the queen was not on it... hopefully I did not miss her!

With any luck, Hive 1 may recover from the fiasco. I plan on staying out of the hives completely for the next week or two and let them settle in proper. With the flow on now there doesn't look to be any need to feed either.


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

Good job. Took me a while to see the eggs my first time too and I am an entomologist who has reared ants since he was 10 (I had the weirdest hobby in the area).

I wouldn't worry too much about accidentally transferring the queen. The most important thing is you have eggs. Chances are there is another frame w/ brood of the appropriate age to rear a queen if she was accidentally moved though it is safer to avoid this. 

Cold was my second guess for the look of hive one but usually they keep themselves warm. If it was cold then it is possible the sugar was too far away from them to get to when it got cold. W/out comb they don't have a store to eat during the night to make heat (they do this by contracting wing muscles to make metabolic heat--and this takes a lot of sugar, hence honey for food). It looked warm in your video so I couldn't tell. What I can say is that, if it was cold, it's a good thing the days were warm or they would probably be gone now. If it is cold and they have no food then the sugar should be right on top of them. This will insulate them some, keep the sugar warm for eating, and avoid the necessity of bees having to venture into a cold area to feed--where they will get too cold to return.

Anyway, I've learned a lot here by using the search bar on the left of the homepage for this site so, if you haven't already, take advantage of that. You just might get hooked!

For your bees, you are probably good now but keep an eye on them if there is a cold snap.


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

Thank you - you've been a fantastic help!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Dead queens in.their cage in the package often indicate the presence of another queen...virgin or mated.

That, in my experience, is the most likely cause of a dead queen in a package. There was almost certainly one loose in the package. Odds are, no matter where you put her, the replacement queen would end up dead.


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >Dead queens in.their cage in the package often indicate the presence of another queen...virgin or mated.
> 
> That, in my experience, is the most likely cause of a dead queen in a package. There was almost certainly one loose in the package. Odds are, no matter where you put her, the replacement queen would end up dead.


That's a good point.

Roto, out of curiosity, was the hive w/ eggs the one that originally had the dead queen?


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## dux (Feb 18, 2012)

ref: the way you were handling the bars/comb in the video (hive 1): you dont want to tilt it like that, always keep the hanging comb plumb, else-wise, it can tear or break. especially once you have a full comb hanging on a bar


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

JClark said:


> That's a good point.
> 
> Roto, out of curiosity, was the hive w/ eggs the one that originally had the dead queen?


Yep!


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

... and this is the bar as it looked when I moved it over.

I'll get a pic later of what Hive 1 has done with it.










I plan to take a quick look later to see if they are taking feed.


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

80 degrees here but gusty so I didn't linger too long in either hive.

The donor bar now in Hive 1 looked great (to me). Heavy with attendants and brood in all stages. I didn't see any queen cells, but I didn't inspect long due to the gusty conditions... also I don't know how soon I should expect to see one. 

They have drawn more comb on 4 other bars already, which is 3x more comb in 3+ days than they did in the week prior to get the donor bar. I was also impressed with how many of the dead bees they have removed from the hive floor. I take that to mean they have a good # of workers left and they put them to use during a rainy day we had earlier in the week.

Hive 2 looked great again - they have some comb across 7 bars now and 3 or 4 as big or bigger than the donor bar. I didn't see their queen yet, but I was only in their hive for a quick check.

Progress pics of the donor bar in Hive 1:










Close up of brood:










And I seem to have some variety in the drones - some have very black bottoms (fellow circled in yellow):










They did drain the baggie feeder dry - plan to replace it unless someone thinks that unwise.


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

Looks good. I wouldn't even worry about trying to find the queen in hive 2. Just let them go for a while. If there is no queen in hive 1 then they should have made a supercedure cell or two w/ those eggs. If they didn't I'd first look for eggs in the other frames before giving them another frame to try again. If you have eggs on another frame then there is obviously a queen there (unless you have laying workers--usually multiple eggs on the sides of cells). The cell could be hard to see as the bees will be attracted to it so it might just look like a clump of bees. If you find more eggs in hive1 and they are in the bottoms of the cells like what you saw before then make sure you check hive 2 for eggs to ensure that you didn't move that queen inadvertently. 

I'd feed until the flow really kicks in. They sill stop taking it when there is sufficient forage to meet their sugar needs.


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

Thanks for the encouragement! 

More good news today... 

Hive 1 has at least two queen cells and great looking brood on the transplanted bar... hard to see under the cluster of bees on the left edge:










Hive 2s queen showed herself today and looks to be building a strong hive. Sorry for the blurry pic.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Looks like you did a fine job of sorting out that situation.

While hive #1 is working at becoming queenright, you may also consider, transplanting a bar/comb of emerging worker brood from hive #2 (without adhering bees - you could use a feather to brush them off), when one is available, to help bolster their population as their queen hopefully begins to perform her duties.

When establishing with package bees, perfectly good queens may sometimes be superseded because the worker populations are unbalanced in age (having most of the workers nearing the end of their lives, then suddenly having most of the workers of nurse bee age). Somehow this has the bees behave as if their queen is failing, when it is simply that they were established using package bees.


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## bddavis79 (Jun 16, 2012)

Crazy things can definitely happen with packages installed in close proximity to one another. For instance.....this spring I installed two packages correctly in single deeps about 10 ft apart. Queen "a" died in cage. Queen "b" made it out ok. So queenless hive "a" combined itself with queenright hive "b" and balled it's queen in the process. Ended up with a single deep busting with bees on five frames of drawn comb. Because of a lack of replacement queens I combined all of the above with an overwintered nuc with newspaper in between hive bodies. Needless to say that hive will be making some honey fo' sho'. Moral of the story for my situation? Wait another month after packages start to ship and spend $40 for 2 nucs. The point is that we are all making mistakes every year that we know we won't ever repeat. The cost can be high at times but it all seems to work itself out. Roto my friend, those TBH's look pretty cool. I hope your queen situation gets ironed out. I really need to get me one of those.


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

Yeah, looks real good. Have been meaning to post and say you might want to add another frame of eggs just for insurance. It's hard to see the cells in the pick and you don't want to accidentally think that a few weird shaped drone cells are queen cells. The first queen cell I saw I thought might be a drone cell at the beginning (probably because I didn't want to admit they were going to swarm). Once it is complete, though, it is pretty easy to tell--looks like a peanut shell and is the length of a peanut shell (more or less).


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## Roto (Mar 18, 2013)

So I opened up the problem hive today to check on progress and I *think* things are still on track.

The two cells that I believe they formed as emergency queen cells were both empty - which initially had me concerned until I checked the calendar and realized today would be somewhere between day 16 and 18 - right on time for her to have hatched.

I didn't spot her, but I didn't pull out all the bars looking either. If she just hatched she's not hanging around with attendants laying eggs yet anyway.

To hedge my bets I did move over another good size bar from hive 2.

Pic of one of the suspected queen cells:



Inside pic of the problem hive:



The noob beek:


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