# Using entrance reducers when indoor wintering



## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

I am observing a marked difference in hive activity when entrance reducers are used indoors. 
No entrance reducer = much more hive activity and looser cluster.
Entrance reducer = tight cluster and very little hive activity. 
I notice in Ians thread that he uses entrance reducers. I have been told by other commercial beekeepers who indoor winter that reducers are not good and air flow is required. 

I cannot decide if the increased activity and looser cluster is bad or good. I don't think it can be temperature related.
Near as I can figure the explanation is one of the following:
1.) It is a figment of my imagination, the cluster is lower in the box because of the entrance reducer keeps the bee warmer lower in the box. ( I pulled a have completely apart and this doesn't 'seem' to be the case.
2.) There is less activity because there is less air movement and more humidity. This could be considered a bad thing.
3.) My bees are weaker than last year and the one hive that is missing an entrance reducer this year is just an anomaly. (I'll be pulling more reducers just to see if there is an observable change.)

Expert observations would be appreciated. Ian Steppler, Allen Martens chime in if you would?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Can't say I noticed the same thing. My reducers will come off next week when I get some down time and when I can chill the shed during the cool weather.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I get asked this question at least a dozen times every fall.

Jodie, are you sure your seeing what you think your seeing? 
I'm interested in these observations


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Bees can't see red lights? Myth


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Entrance Reducer







No Entrance Reducer

I only had one hive without an entrance reducer. But the selection of the one with the entrance reducer was just random.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

To further back up my claim, I have other beekeepers wintering in my new building because it is too big for just mine. They do not have entrance reducers and the results are similar to my "No entrance reducer" picture.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Jodie,

To me, it looks like the one hive without a reducer has a larger population by quite a bit. It may not be that simple.

Bees do not see wavelengths in the red spectrum very well, but that does not mean they can't see it at all. Also, many red light bulbs are not very "pure" in the red spectrum.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

JSL said:


> Jodie,
> 
> To me, it looks like the one hive without a reducer has a larger population by quite a bit. It may not be that simple.
> 
> Bees do not see wavelengths in the red spectrum very well, but that does not mean they can't see it at all. Also, many red light bulbs are not very "pure" in the red spectrum.


I expected that answer. I have removed the reducer and will take a follow up picture in 48 hours.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

so hard to tell from pictures on this side of the computer. 
Are you sure that hive just is not a "too big for its britches" hive?

I will run into hives more active than others while moving. Some just seem more settled than others. 

I think the hives that are more passive going into the shed are made up of more winter bees, where as some of these monsters I think still have a large proportion of summer bees hanging around. Summer bees, in my mind would tend to be more active than winter bees, as summer bees will stretch their wings late fall to forage. Those winter bees hunker down as they should and focus on spring. 

Just my thoughts from my observations, what do you think?

tag those two hives, lets see which one ends up with the larger population in spring.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JodieToadie said:


> View attachment 14469
> 
> Bees can't see red lights? Myth


I think its more that the bees dont see red light as well as it hits the lower spectrum of their vision, where as they will see ultraviolet light. I have had red light bulbs that have no attraction to the bees, and some that show lots. I attributed that to white light shining through the colouring. 

At any rate, using the red bulb sure beats using white lights!


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Red light is great, just don't put it on a switch. I had a 'helper' leave the light on last year and I confess I did it too the year before. Now it is on a spring wound timer.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Can't speak specifically to the question as I never use entrance reducers in fall. There is a big variation in activeness if you pop the lids in the wintering room. I get on top of the hives and pop about 50 lids several times a winter. Some hives are in a tight cluster while other are in a loose active cluster. I have never compared from one time to the next whether the same hives are active. Could be interesting to see which consumed the most feed.

Seems counter intuitive that the hives with open entrances are more active. There may be other factors at play like the open hives being more perceptive of lights being turned on or motion.

I am curious to see how the hives react when the reducers have been removed.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JodieToadie said:


> Red light is great, just don't put it on a switch. I had a 'helper' leave the light on last year and I confess I did it too the year before. Now it is on a spring wound timer.


I have done that. I have also had my brother get into the winter shed to grab a tool of some kind and leave the overhead door parially open for a week. Good thing it was *****en cold.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Dropped 1/2 my reducers off tonight. I did notice last year that the hive that had a reducer on all winter consumed ~5lbs less than the others. The hive however seemed stunted.






not sure if there is a difference after 5 hours






I like knocking them off anyway so I can see the mite drop from my oxalic treatment last month.







Here's the new rig Allen. Just like yours but I haven't built forks yet.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Can't speak to indoor wintering and honey consumption rates, but for outdoors, the colonies that settle in first and form a nice cluster consume the least amount of honey by far. Then we look for those that have a nice growth curve in the spring and honey consumption really jumps. Even on marginal days in the fall when flight is possible, but forage is not, I really like those colonies that are quite in the cluster.

Jodie, out of curiosity, when we used to do more sampling for tracheal mites and nosema in the winter, the active colonies generally had higher levels present. Are you able to sample them?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JSL said:


> Jodie, out of curiosity, when we used to do more sampling for tracheal mites and nosema in the winter, the active colonies generally had higher levels present. Are you able to sample them?


Jodie, your into this kind of stuff. Here is a good test. sample from your active hive, and sample from one of your non active hives. Send the samples to the NBDC at Beverlodge AB and let us know your results.

I am thinking the entrance observation is just a coincidence


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

I could sample. I even won a free full spectrum analysis at the field day 2 years ago. I might still be allowed to use it. It's only an hours drive from home. Now that I finally have a bit of downtime I will grab a jar and send them in.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JodieToadie said:


> won a free full spectrum analysis


Oh Jodie, no excuse! get them a live sample! 

but also, grab a separate sample from your active hive to be able to compare against your apiary sample. For interest sake.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Jodie

Do you find that the hives with entrance reducers on all winter have a greater accumulation of dead bees on the bottom board. To me it seems that my hives with a 3/4 in entrance have fewer bees accumulating than the hives with a 3/8 inch entrance.

Skid steer looks to be in great condition. Looks like it i thse narrower tire version with more clearance.

Joe good point about the correlation about between disease and loose cluster - I had forgotten about that connection. I will try to do some sampling this winter. Ian, got to use the Growing Forward microscopes for something.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

before Apivar came in, when check=mite was failing, when my hives were struggling with mite loads and apperent Deformed WIng Virus, and we were just starting to learn about other such viral infections moving into the country, I said to myself;

"if there were only way I could send a sample of bees away to determine if and what viral loads were in my hives"

...

how many beekeepers actually are taking advantage of this program? Maybe they will start when mite loads start taking down hives again


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Allen Martens said:


> Ian, got to use the Growing Forward microscopes for something.


Whats your nosema counts Allen?


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

I don't have a whole lot of trouble with dead bees accumulating Allen. If the hive is really weak and failing I might get a buildup but not otherwise. I didn't even have to clean the bottom boards this year the bees did it. 

I am really happy with the skid steer. I was pretty hesitant when the salesman said it had 143 hours on it and an old man owned it. Well it is pretty much pristine. A couple of paint rubs and that is it. 

But I am spent this year. Built a new building, bought the skid steer, and right after I got it I found a 60 frame Cowen line and the price was good enough I could not pass it up. So I am looking forward to having the bees put away for a few months so I can pay some bills up. (Couldn't even afford a cement floor this year by the time I finished spending.)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Bees can't see red lights? Myth

What we call red can vary a lot from orange to crimson... if it leans towards orange they can see it. The difference between orange and red to a bee is the same as the difference between red and infrared to humans. There are colors between that we can see, but in theory we can't see infrared itself. The other thing is that filters are not perfect. You start with a white glowing filiment and then try to filter it so only the red gets out. Other things leak out as well...


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian said:


> Whats your nosema counts Allen?


No idea Ian. I have not monitored or treated for about 5 years. 

Part of the reason I bought the microscope was to do some comprehensive testing of for nosema at different times of the year and with or without treatment. 

A one or two time global test provides very little useful information IMO. A global test before and after a treatment does indicate whether a treatment has been effective, though a treatment free control should probably be monitor to see if changes in nosema levels was a response to treatment or natural variations.

Global test can easily lead to a false sense of security. Had a global varroa test done some years ago in spring but only a couple yards were tested. Numbers came back incredibly low. Test the wrong yards obviously. Majors problems in some other yards that fall.

None of my opinions about beekeeping come cheap lol.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Allen Martens said:


> Global test can easily lead to a false sense of security.


I agree, like a company looking at a survey or a politician looking at the polls; the results do lie sometimes. The trick is to survey in a way to get the most comprehensive look on the situation but doing so without surveying every hive. I agree, before and after, and controls are also key. The control part of the equation is where I lack and leaving controls would help me understand natural happenings. 
What I do is during one of my work rounds, I take a sample of 6 plus hives from each yard. This lead to a sampling of 15-20% from random hives, representing about 200 hives from the 1000. I use to treat on yard by yard basis but this lead to yard being mixed and hives missing follow up treatments. This caused larger problems in the long run.

Allen, which is better, a false sense of security from test results or a sense of security lead by assumptions?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I haven't shopped for darkroom equipment in decades, but for Ortho film they used to make red filters that really were red filters for safe lights...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

That's an awesome idea Michael. Those will be actual red lights.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> >Bees can't see red lights? Myth
> 
> ... There are colors between that we can see, ... . Other things leak out as well...


Please try red LED light bulbs or stripes. LEDs are monochromatic.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>LEDs are monochromatic.
If they are it seems reasonable.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> >LEDs are monochromatic.
> If they are it seems reasonable.


This article is light further reading:
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/article...ontiers-in-solid-state-lighting-magazine.html


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

"No entrance reducer = much more hive activity and looser cluster."



Allen Martens said:


> ... Seems counter intuitive that the hives with open entrances are more active. There may be other factors at play ...


The hives are so near to each other. Without entrance reducer the neighboring bees stimulate each other and feel annoyed.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

sjj do you winter bees indoors or have any experience doing so?


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian said:


> which is better, a false sense of security from test results or a sense of security lead by assumptions?


Been thinking about this one for a while. Not sure if one can get away for a sense of security lead by assumptions.

Take for example my varroa tests this fall. A global test for varroa came in at under 1% and would have led me to assume all is good. Test results from individual hives mostly came in under 1% with the odd one spiking as high as 6%. As a result, I treated and will monitor those hives very closely next spring to make sure the numbers came down. Maybe an anomaly or it may be an indication of resistance. A global test would not have alerted me to this potential problem.

For nosema I truly live by a sense of security lead by assumptions. I am assuming that because I see no better survival rates for winters where I treated in fall than those I didn't treat, I am not experiencing a benefit from treating. I am assuming that because when I treated for nosema in fall and had individual hives tested for nosema in midwinter some had levels through the roof while other did not, I am not experiencing a benefit from treating. Am I comfortable with this? Not totally. That's why I am planning to track some individual hives through the season to establish some baseline to confirm my assumptions.

Bottom line. A person's got to do what lets you sleep at night knowing you given it a good shot.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

sjj said:


> The hives are so near to each other. Without entrance reducer the neighboring bees stimulate each other and feel annoyed.


Not really convinced that this would be the reason. Bees stay in the own hives with or without a reducer.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

@JodieToadie
It is good to be able to protect an apiary. 
I would like to know more about forces that stimulate change or progress within a system. That's all.


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