# Mite Resistance



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Have noted this behavior in several breeds of survivor stock as well as chemically controlled populations... but the effectiveness is still being studied. So far we have noted this behavior in some Italians, Carniolans, and Russians. Slightly more so from the carniolans, but the italians have not been far behind. Good Post by the way!


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## Beesrfun (Sep 13, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> Have noted this behavior in several breeds of survivor stock as well as chemically controlled populations... but the effectiveness is still being studied. So far we have noted this behavior in some Italians, Carniolans, and Russians. Slightly more so from the carniolans, but the italians have not been far behind. Good Post by the way!


I am wondering what specfic bee they were talking about. I mean that article was fairly new


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I would assume it was just a selectively bred strain of a. millifera and a. mellifera millifera (Buckfast and German Black Bee). Anyone have any ideas??? I know I have seen a few people from england, maybe they can let us know what is the most common breed in this gentlemans area...


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Hi
The bee's are for want of a better word....local mongrels,I have spoken with Ron on a couple of occasions....a very dedicated man regards research on his bee's for varroa tolerance.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Thanks beekuk,

Can you tell us what the most commonly kept bees are in his area? Thanks again.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Most common bee's....Italians,carniolans,buckfast,amm?,.... Queens from Hawii,Australia,new zealand,Slovenia,Greece,Germany,Belgium....the list goes on....hence i use the word mongrels,athough there are supposedly still some AMM type bee's in small pockets in various parts......no shortage of genetic diversity in the uk thats for sure......Rons aim is to try and spread his particular strain, by providing queens to as many as he can in his locality .....


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Thanks Pete,

I will say that of all the breeds that I have worked with amm has always adapted slightly more readily than the others... if only they weren't so prone to robbing and just plain unpleasant. Lol. Next time you speak with him will you ask him to contact me or if you could send me his contact info...I would be interested in funding and staffing his research...but of course I would like to know more about him and his operation first. Thanks.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

I've never heard of AMM. What are they?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Angry mean mothers!

Well thats' how they used to be in my country, although the breed has mysteriously dissapearedover the last perhaps 20 years.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Amm is short for A. Millifera Millifera. Aka...German Black Bee, British Black Bee, etc... slightly smaller than Italians, usually no striping at all, just shiny black, quite aggressive, very prone to robbing, yet very stout and readily adapts to stresses. In the US, they are one of the few strains of feral bee remaining... mostly in the southern LA area but also found in other regions. We have nick-named them "bayou bees" because they are so well established in that area that they actually bred into 400 hives that we have on an island down there throughout the course of twelve years.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks. I have Italians. Often I have seen some hives that have a small percentage of smaller blackish bees. So, there are probably a few feral AMMs around me?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Possible... it could also be older genetics just coming to the surface here and there. Any hybrids will produce a few mixed traits. Nothing to worry about... just evidence of good diversity. If you notice that a hive has a high percentage of shiny little black bees, or if you notice a hive being robbed, look to see what bees are fleeing the seen when you open it up.. that will tell you if they are mixed with amm.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

I have noticed that hives with black bees are somewhat more agressive and propolize more. I heard beekeepers say that when a queen is nearing the end of her stored sperm, that she lays eggs that hatch into a higher percentage of black bees.
Also, I stopped treating about 6 years ago, lost about half of 16 the first year, but bounced back quickly. I seem to get maybe 10 to 20 percent less honey than others in my bee club. But to me it's worth it. Could having some AMM be why mine are surviving without treatment?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Never can tell... I will say that amm are very effective at controlling shb and have been surviving quite well without treatments for VD. They are an ancient strain and thus if they breed into any other strain that is left to requeen naturally, they will indeed become the dominant genetics in the colony through time. The down sides are (as oldtimer said) they are "mean mothers" lol, and they will rob at the drop of a hat, so any weaker colonies will get wiped out quite quickly. The island where ours are was a test to see of we could use it as one of our isolated breeding grounds...as you can see, it failed. Lol. But they have gone untreated for twelve years and while weaker colonies have been wiped out, the swarms seem to take up residence in the empty boxes and build up brood before food, thus limiting the chance of being robbed... neat bees. Also, they do not produce much surplus at all, however, they do seem to store it more quickly than others....and they build wax like there is no tomorrow...probably because they assume that there may not be one. Lol.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks Russell. If I come up with a hive that seems to be mostly AMM, I will use them to draw comb instead of getting honey.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Rrussell6870
<<<slightly smaller than Italians, usually no striping at all, just shiny black, quite aggressive, very prone to robbing, yet very stout and readily adapts to stresses.>>>

Here a pictures of the “Apis Melifera" http://www.flickr.com/photos/nimou/375473901/
This is the gentlest bee in my bee yard. I can work without gloves or any other protection the whole day.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Here are even better pictures from the Apis_mellifera

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Apis_mellifera


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Axtman, your black ones, will likely be carniolan or some hybrid of.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

We still have some AMM in remote places,some on Scottish islands that do not even have varroa...and more in Ireland. Same as most bee's regarding temperament....some good, some bad.....the worse tempers seem to occur when crossing different strains,and one of the reasons i carry out II, to at least have a little more control,this combined with a couple of remote mating apairys.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have observed the "get it off me dance" and the subsequent grooming in every breed of bees I've had, both in my observation hive and in my hives. I don't think it's unique.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> I have observed the "get it off me dance" and the subsequent grooming in every breed of bees I've had, both in my observation hive and in my hives. I don't think it's unique.


Agreed... basic grooming is not necessarily a form of resistance... have noted them aggressively removing the mite and immediately leaving the hive with it though... may not amount to anything more than a few clean bees... but worth keeping am eye on. Certainly not worth breeding as a hygienic, but I would like to learn more about just how actively his bees are seeking mites to groom off. It really depends on the level of effectiveness as to whether or not it would be worth considering a series of studies.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

I thought this study interesting in that it indicates the domestic bees already had a high level of grooming ability. Less virulent mites and a few other important traits surely would be helpful in keeping mites at a more workable level.
I also see that the Russian bees had higher drone production than the Domestics. Them boy's may deserve a little more respect.

Resistance to the parasitic mite Varroa destructor
in honey bees from far-eastern Russia



> A greater percentage of the dead mites
> collected from the P colonies had physical
> damage *attributable to grooming (P = 42%
> (8265 of 19680 mites), D = 28% (15712
> ...


http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/revistaselectronicas/apidologie/32-4/rinderer.pdf


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Delta, 

No one has knocked the Russians, but most agree that they are for certain climates... It is 72 degrees here today, will be in the 80s next week... When chosing stock for a commercial apiary, there is more to consider than just the number of dead varroa... honestly, advanced carnica have been noted as being just as resistant as russians and lightyears ahead in climatic adaptability, production, and gentleness. 

Again, not knocking them, just saying that they are northern bees...thus they work best in northern climates... In the south where they have a year-round flow, they can even wipe themselves out by over storing and keeping such a small cluster that they cant defend from robbing.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> No one has knocked the Russians,


My pointing was not about the Russians but that the Domestic bees showed a high rate of grooming. If you go by the number of mites groomed the Domestics where given it all they had, just couldn't keep up.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Delta.... Noted... I apologize.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

rrussell6870

You are talking Russians and advanced carnica. Do you know what are the different between both kind and where the Russians originally coming from?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

yes...africa. lol. All Apis breeds and strains originated from a 100+ million year old bee that actually somewhat resembled a wasp. Directly, Russian or Primorsky come the southeast corner of russia. They are still of the species Apis mellifera. Over 150 years of exposure to Varroa (R) mites has allowed them to develop their current resistance... however, the climate of Russia has much to do with the controlled levels of infestation...(as no creature can develop a defense to something that destroys it within only a few gens). Prior to the Primorsky Krai region, they were on a gradual northern track through asia and europe. 

Hope this helps. If there something in particular that you are needing to know, I would be happy to help.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Axtmann,

Being in Germany, are you aware that an institute in Kirchhain Germany, has been trialling their Carnica against Primorsky Queens? Go to the "Queen And Bee Breeding" forum... in this forum there is a thread titled "Queen Breeding"... there is more info there about the topic.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

What I know about the Primorsky Bees is they are Carnies that were taken into the Primosky region around the 1850's. Where it gets blurry is exactly when the mites made the jump and how long it took for the Primorsky bees and mites too develop coexistence. Could have been 5 years or 125 years. Does anyone know for sure? 
What is fairly clear is the style of management in box hives (Swarm System) that was common throughout that area that allowed natural selection to take place.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Delta,

Primorsky bees are not Carniolans... They are a mixture of A. Mellifera Acervorum (Ukranian), A. Mellifera Mellifera (German Black Bee), and A. Mellifera (Italian). This mixture was made in the Primorsky region not before and not intentionally.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Since those European bees developed a resistance to varroa naturally, why can American run of the mill Europeans not do the same?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

heaflaw said:


> Since those European bees developed a resistance to varroa naturally, why can American run of the mill Europeans not do the same?


They have...and quite quickly when compared to the Primorsky. There are many breeders in the US selling survivor stock and several with hybrid stock.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

rrussell6870 said:


> They have...and quite quickly when compared to the Primorsky. There are many breeders in the US selling survivor stock and several with hybrid stock.


So, why don't all beekeepers go ASAP with those survivors only? It would save a lot of money and time as well as simply leave us with healthier bees in general.


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## greengecko (Dec 16, 2008)

I believe the future of honey for human consumption is dependent on the development of untreated survivor stocks acclimated to local conditions.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

It's just not that simple.. In the US commercial bee operations are responsible for billions of dollars in crops each year... not every bee operates the same way... thus bees have been selectively bred to produce better in certain areas... These operations depend on things such as early buildup, heavy populations, lengthy pollenation ranges, etc... where as most strains of survivor stock seem to come from less adapted base genetics... perfectly understandable... However, if everyone switched to these regressive genetics, the first 20 years would show a giant loss in productions as opposed to the levels of today...

However, these commercial apiaries are not feeding the mite problem at all, as they all have very well managed treatment programs and in 99 of 100 cases have much healthier hives than the local hobiest.. BEFORE YOU SEND YOUR HATE MAIL.... The answer is productive stock enhancement via lite, yet long term exposure... we have beaten the mites by doing so with our operation, and not been forced to regress in productive breeding. This process takes much longer than simply letting everything die and grafting off of what is left... but the queens are already available and not just here, they are also available in Germany, Turkey, and I believe in Jordan as well. Quite simply put, they are highly productive stock that has been allowed to be exposed to mites for short periods of time, yet treated to bring them back to full health and then repeated... after hundreds of gens, the hygenic behavior has developed and although they are not as resistant as the Primorsky, they are quite far along and require no treatments.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Just wanted to add that I think New Zealand is offering them as well.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Are you talking about VSH, Minn Hyg, NWC that so much has been written about, or are these other lines? Were the above produced by the method you described?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Some were. They are all great stock. But it has also been used in Italians and many other hybrids. When selecting queens, just ask your breeder how often he has to treat and they will surely be happy to tell you. Or try a few from different breeders each year, then chose the stock that best defends itself against VD, yet still produces the product that you desire.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> mixture of A. Mellifera Acervorum (Ukranian), A. Mellifera Mellifera (German Black Bee), and A. Mellifera (Italian).


Do you have documentation that can be shared of their pedigree?

Thanks!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> However, these commercial apiaries are not feeding the mite problem at all, as they all have very well managed treatment programs and in 99 of 100 cases have much healthier hives than the local hobiest.. BEFORE YOU SEND YOUR HATE MAIL.....


Ha Ha, I love your humor Robert!

It's also kind of soothing to see some of the ill informed rumors that fly around about commercial beekeepers debunked.



rrussell6870 said:


> Just wanted to add that I think New Zealand is offering them as well.


There is at this stage, a small experimental VSH population here in NZ, that has been developed primarily through a government backed program. The genetics is primarily italian, the best bees for most NZ conditions. They are not available to the general public yet but a plan is being developed to make them available through responsible breeders who will continue the further developement of them that is still needed.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Bilash G.D., Krivtsov N.I. - Moscow, Agropromizdat,
ISBN 5-10-001701-5



Far Eastern Bees. Those bees can and should be classified as primitive
strain, however officially they are not accepted as a strain, despite there
are no any serious reason against such decision. They populate territory of
Chitinsky, Amursky, Khabarovsky and Primorsky regions, where Far Eastern bee
formed as primitive strain from the end of 19-th century till present times
as result of excursive crosses of bees introduced by frontiersmen mostly of
Ukrainian strain, less - central Russian strain, lesser - yellow and gray
Caucasian strain and much lesser - Italian strain, and also as result of
natural and artificial selection. As result of heterogeneous origin Far
Eastern bees differ from other strains by greater amplitude of variability,
however according main characteristics quite answer to conditions of
primitive strain (array of specific features, their stabile inheritance from
generation to generation, great number of families, which exclude
probability of relative crosses in big scale and so on).

V.V. Stasevich (1913), known specialist of Far Eastern bee-keeping,
considered that Far Eastern bees are product of successful combination of
central Russian and Ukrainian bees in conditions of Primorsky region.

V. Grudnov (1913) reported, that in Amursky region settlers introduced
central Russian bees from Altay, from Perm and Voronezh regions, Ukrainian
bees - from Poltava region, and Caucasian bees (most probably, yellow
ones) - from northern Caucasus. Caucasian bees badly hibernated here, they
was very swarmed (up to 4 swarms, and sometimes 7-8 swarms per family during
summer), but was outstanding by honey production.

Prominent personality of Far Eastern bee-keeping, one of the founder of
Dalpcheltrest G.F. Muryi denoted, that in the Far East gray Caucasian bees
was also introduced as well as queens of Italian strain (included ones from
Australia).

Sound about right? I could show you the ancestrial SNPs from each genome, but this should be sufficient.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Hi rrussell6870

Congratulation you have a good knowledge!

Approx 150 years ago Russians deported unwanted people from the Ukraine to nowhere - and this was the region around Wladiwostok. Some farmers had there honey bees also in there bag pack. And so end up the European honey bee in the homeland of the Asian bee Apis cerana and the Varroa mites. The Apis cerana has a shorter development time and not a big problem with the mites; it is not the cleaning behavior that let them survive. 

IMO in a few years they lost all European bees to the mites, but as you know, it takes a while and during this time some crossbreed with the Apis cerana and survived. This survivor is the Primorski bee or so called Apis Mellifera Acervorum. Today the Ukraine has several bee species, the Apis mellifera mellifera, the A mellifera acervorum and the A mellifera carpatica. 

The disadvantage from the Primorski bee, they over winter in small clusters and have a slow start in spring. IMO - that’s not what commercial beekeepers need.
By the way, 150 years ago the Apis Mellifera Mellifera, the dark alp mountain bee was the common bee in the Ukraine. 

Yes, I know the bee institute in Kirchhain and Dr. Büchler


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Axtmann, we will be good friends. lol. I have a few friends in the Ukraine and Russia that you may know as well... I will PM you the names to see if we have common friends... And Thank you very much for the post!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What! I didn't know A mellifera can interbreed with A cerana.

You sure about that Axtman? Can you reference any research on that?

If true this could be a concern to my country.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Oldtimer... I believe they can and do interbreed. I was under the understanding that this was the issue in Australia that caused the US to close our borders to import packages from there. I was told that 200+ colonies had been confirmed as hybridised with cerana... (for those who are wondering)... cerana is effected by varroa (J) a strain that was thought to be isolated to Japan... by the interbreeding of cerana with local stock, the local stock can fall prey to not only varroa (R. From Russia), but (J) as well.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I will add though that with careful management, the hybrid strains could quickly be corrected via strict requeening and careful placement of drone comb.

I believe that if a Millifera queen were bred with nothing but cerana drones, the offspring would possess a fatal gene... however, if that queen were mated with one drone of even a hybrid of cerana, and this process were repeated throughout say 10 years of swarming, it would create a viable stock that would be a major concern for vulnerability to both type (R) and type (J) varroa.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well then if i understand Axtman correctly, it means you would already have cerana genes in the US, via the Primorski bee?


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## Beesrfun (Sep 13, 2010)

so exactly what are the resistant strains out there that can be used my the public?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Well then if i understand Axtman correctly, it means you would already have cerana genes in the US, via the Primorski bee?


I will need some cerana to find out for sure...dead ones of course. Lol. But I think that is indeed the case... however...they would be distant genes and of stock that was wild and had survived both mites for quite some time before introduction to the Millifera. I think that the main cross would be Millifera, amm, Ukrainian.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Beesrfun said:


> so exactly what are the resistant strains out there that can be used my the public?


Anything hygienic... I can't promote my own stock during a conversation like this because I feel it would be immoral... but Minn hyg, VSH, and a vast multitude of survivor stock are available and fairly easy to find.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Oldtimer

Yes the A cerana can x breed with the A mellifera. 

In 1976 Dr. Ruttner and other “scientists” from a German bee institute in Oberursel brought cerana queens into Germany for interbreed tests. They so called clever “scientists” didn’t checked for there back pack, the Varroa mite. This mistake was the beginning of the Varroa in Europe, the same mistake like the japans scientists did in 1958.
I’m dealing (fighting) with the mites since 1977.
Whenever humans have there hands in the equilibrium of nature they mixing everything up; Varroa in Europe and AHB in South Amerika.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Axtmann,

Your English may not be very good, but your understanding of human "contamination" of natural order, is poetry. Lol.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

So did Ruttner succeed with the interbreeding? And if so, what has become of those bees?


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> So did Ruttner succeed with the interbreeding? And if so, what has become of those bees?


I would be interested to know also. The best that I can find is the cross produced fertilized eggs through AI but the eggs did not survive.

The biology of the honey bee By Mark L. Winston

Page 8 second paragraph

http://books.google.ca/books?id=-5i..._result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q&f=true


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

From my understanding of Dr. Ruttner's studies... The II interbreeding between the species created offspring with a fatal gene...which is quite common with any species. However, in open mating projects where fewer cerana drones were present than mellifera, and serveral gens were allowed, the crosses were noted through behavioral activities.

As far as where these bees are today... my guess would be that they were destroyed by Dr. Ruttner, Mites, and those that may have breach the breeding bounderies would have been killed by AMM during robbing, which surrounded the area. Whether or not a fatal gene was still present in the open mated specimens, we will never know... the offspring of these crossed queens may have only lived to be a year old, may have only layed 100 eggs, may have been rejected continuously, there is really no telling.


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## josethayil (Jul 17, 2008)

you cannot cross mellifera and cerana bees. the crosses will only produce diploid drones which are killed by the worker bees in the hive within 3 to 4 days of the egg being laid. there has never been any records of crosses between cerana and mellifera. there are lot of places where cerana and mellifera are kept together at the moment and none of them have been recorded to hybridize. there has been lot of experiments trying to hybridize mellifera with cerana and none of them have succeeded till now.


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