# Never pop the lid if the temp. is below _____



## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

your thoughts? (no philosophizing, gesticulating, pontificating, ruminating or speculating, and no challenging the nature of my question, and the word "depends" is hereby banned unless you can somehow work your underwear brand into your answer.)

[ December 08, 2005, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: FordGuy ]


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

Temperature never enters the equation.
The deciding factor for me is if I have time to truck out in the snow and ice and check.

Regardless of the temperature, I will take
the top off and look to see if I can find the bees. If I don't see them I put my ear above the inner cover hole and wrap the side of the hive. I listen for the buzz. Whole process takes maybe 10 seconds.

[ December 08, 2005, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: The Honey House ]


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

.

[ December 08, 2005, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: The Honey House ]


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

temperature MUST enter the equation. I strongly disagree with the notion to the nature of "depends on your perspective" like the thread above. There IS an OBJECTIVE scientific answer to this question. Now if you want to say, if you are talking less than ___ seconds, temperature doesn't matter, i'm with you. as such might simulate a strong gust of cold wind through the hole in the mouse guard.


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

*your thoughts?*
_is what you asked,_ and then you change to wanting a definative temperature!  

My thoughts are ... 
If I do not freeze to death walking out to the hives, then it's warm enough for me look inside!


 
Maybe you should have used less legal ease and said something like "Never open a lid when the temperature is below what degree?"

[ December 08, 2005, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: The Honey House ]


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I don't think that you have much to worry about in SC.
I open my hives up all winter to check on them, add feed when needed.
I am still feeding syrup and our daytime highs are in the 20's.
I start my spring feeding durng February, while temps here are well below freezing.
I have installed queens at the end of April in the snow, more then once.
I would ask why you want to open your hives?
You can obtain a significant amount of information without having to open the hive. 
By listening to the hive you can judge where they are located, how high the cluster is. By listening during the day and night, you can compare their movements and cluster size.
By know how the stores are arranged you can judge how they stand with stores.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

for tecumseh the minimum temperature for me to be tempted to pop a lid is about 40 degrees. at 40 degrees whatever I might be doing has to be fairly quick and dirty.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

There is no lower limit, as long as you do
not disturb the cluster.

The temperature only inches away from clustered
bees can be assumed to be the ambient temperature.
The bees do not heat the hive interior, they
keep the heat within the cluster.

So, if the "outside" temperature is 0, then
the majority of the airmass inside the hive
beyond the cluster is not going to much above 0.

So, if there is no rain or snow coming down
(which would soak the bees, and be very bad),
you certainly CAN pop open a hive and toss in 
a pollen patty, or remove covers and slap on a
feeder.

But you are in SC, so you can open your hives
whenever you want. It just won't get cold
enough. I was in Charleston just before
Thanksgiving, and while a jacket was required
for an early-morning walk along the Battery, 
by 10am, I was down to shirtsleeves.

Interesting concept to ask for information, but
demand in advance that everyone refrain from
offering their hard-won opinions along with
the number you desire.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Several year ago (1993/1994) a friend and I snow shoed through 3 feet of snow to reach one of his outyards, it was 9 below zero early January, Fingerlakes Region upstate NY. (the trip was just a fun trip) One of the hives had the telescoping lid and inner cover blown off. I was amazed the bees were still clustered inside and doing quite well. It took awhile but we finally dug the lid out of the snow. The lid was down side up and frozen full of leaves which indicated it had blown off several months ago before any snow while leaves were still falling and blowing around. We replaced the lid (never found the inner cover) and the bees wintered fine. I have done emergency feedings with warm syrup above a cluster at 18 degrees. As Jim said there is no temperature where bees are kept they can't be opened as long as you don't disturb or break the cluster. There is no month of the year I have not opened hives in our SC yards.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

There's a great USDA paper here on beesource regarding the thermology of wintering honey bee colonies:

http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/techbulletin1429.htm

The results of this research do not completely support Jim Fischer's assertion that "The temperature only inches away from clustered bees can be assumed to be the ambient temperature."

You can't put a ball of heat-generating bees inside a hive and not heat, to some extent at least, a portion of the interior of the hive i.e., there is heat escaping from the cluster and heating the air immediately adjacent to the cluster. The further away from the cluster you get, the closer the temperature approaches that of the outside air. Only well below the cluster is the temperature the same as or close to that of the outside air. Above and beside the cluster the temperature is going to be considerably higher than the outside temperature.

In any case, it's not my intention to try to refute Jim's position which I consider substantially correct. Open your hive only if you have a good reason to do so, to slap on a pollen patty or some candy or a feeder but don't do it just because you can, and Do Not disturb the cluster and remember that opening your hive in the winter will chill the cluster and the colder it is, the faster it will happen.

If you just want to see if they're still alive, don't bother. If they're dead, they'll be just as dead come spring.

George-


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## Beemaninsa (Jun 9, 2004)

I don't like to break cluster under 50. Fordguy. "Depends" might actually BE the brand name of underwear some use.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

43 F. That is where I begin staying in the house and let the bees take care of themselves. If I can't work them in my shirtsleeves, I leave them alone. That's also the temp I have been taught they begin flying. Of course, the bees weren't taught that and sometimes don't abide by that rule.


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Memories---Old memory flashback here! 
When I was a kid and opened a hive lid in January I was shocked. There was approximately a foot of snow on the ground and it was cold out. When i popped the lid some bees flew out and made it about six feet(2 meters) before their engines froze up, they dropped to the ground and I was amazed how may bees were walking around on top of the frames. Could not believe that the inside of the hive was warm enough for them to move like that. Now I can not remember if it was sunny, but do remember it was dead calm--no wind. This was fifty years ago!!! When I look into a hive now in cold weather that memory always comes back!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I try not to open the hive unless the bees are flying, but on occasion, I have had a reason to pull the lid (like pulling Apistan strips for the two years that I used them) and I try to wait for a day above freezing. I'm going to proabaly open them up this weekend to put pollen on (based on my observation hive starting brood) and it's supposed to be about 35 to 39 or so.


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## Mabe (Mar 22, 2005)

15 degrees or so with no wind, preferably with sun. Love Powernapper's analogy of bees flying out and having their engines freeze up...that happens here a lot. I only open to check feed buckets, dry sugar supply and for condensation in empty deep over the IC. Their response to a thump on the side of the hive lets me know they're alive.


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

thanks for all the answers! Couple of you guys - please understand that was my feeble attempt at joviality. (more "legalese" for ya!!!)

I have been betrayed by my profession again!


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

40


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## SandyC (Dec 6, 2005)

I'm not going to touch mine until spring. There is already about a foot + of snow around it and I don't dare touch my wrap. You all have me worried now, that I am going to find a bunch of mite infested bees in the spring!!!! Now I can't decide if I should order a nuc or take my chances.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Take a look at a hive with snow cover on it's roof. If there isn't substantial insulation between the cluster and the outer cover, the snow will at least be concaved in and often completely melted away in the center. The heat to melt that snow is coming from somewhere inside the hive. Hives that have good insulation between the cluster and the cover (or empty hives for that matter) don't show that type of snow melt.


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

So it's O.K. then to leave an empty on top off the inner cover?
Shim shingles to prop the outer up and create an upper entrance?I worried about too large an entrance,and the extra hiking the girls were facing to get outside.
Inner cover hole(porter escape sized) wide open?
Xtra granulated sugar on the inner cover?
I left mine this way after I removed the feeder jars so that I could wrap the feeder,and feed without unwrapping.
I was worried about the glass jars freezing/breaking/drowning bees,I left some out to observe,and no freezing at 0 deg.F..
What temp does 2:1 freeze?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Your set up should be fine. 
I wrap my hive for winter with an empty box, then the inner cover on top.
I just put on another 20 gallons of syrup today, along with almost 100 lbs of granular sugar. 
Temps today got to 30F with good sunshine.
I have some pictures of the setup on my site.


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

The bees are alright breaking cluster at about 55 and so am I.


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

Thanks for the reassurance Mt.Camp.
And sorry to cut in on your post,Ford guy.
I am going to keep my eye on these two jars and try to find out the freezing point of 2:1 for the heck of it.
Thanks


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

mw, when you say Proter Escape sized holes, I sure hope you mean without the escape on it. the queen may need to go up with the cluster.

<opening your hive in the winter will chill the cluster and the colder it is, the faster it will happen.>

Pulling off the telescoping cover and the inner cover constitute opening the hive. This will NOT, repeat not, chill the cluster. Taking out frames or otherwise opening up the cluster can cause great damage. Besides for now mine are not even in the top box yet.

Hawk


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

no problem! looks like your questions were right on target to me.


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

If a hive is weak on stores, opeing them up to feed is a good idea regardless of the temp. I'm willing to work them in any temp but I tend to get slower the colder it is. It just depends upon my willingness to put on my long BVD's.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I try to avoid opening my hives if the temperature is below freezing. Regardless of whether you believe the bees only heat the cluster or you believe some heat escapes into the rest of the hive, heat rises. Yank a cover off the top of the hive, and heat is lost into the atmosphere. Only if I absolutly need to feed will I lift a cover to add food, otherwise the hive covers stay on during the winter.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Best just leave them alone duing the winter. Jaring the lid open only disturbs the colony, and for what? 
I know, I know, I do it to, just to settle my interests,.
But really, late winter searves a perpose, food store check. I you have to feed your bees mid winter, they dont have a chance in hell anyway!!


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## B100B101 (May 14, 2005)

I have been feeding my New York City rooftop bees 2:1 sugar syrup from a pail feeder. I have 2 pails. I mix up the syrup, carry the filled pail to the roof, and then quickly pop the telescoping cover, swap the pails, and close it up quickly. The bees are usually clustered right below the pail, peeping out from the hole in the inner cover, where the pail rests. I make "bee space" beneath the pail by setting the pail on two pencils. I have a medium super around the pail, topped with the telescoping cover. 

And, those honeys sure are generating heat. It snowed last week, and of course the rooftop was covered. Except for a circle about 4 feet in diameter, around the hive. The bees' heat melted the snow!

They eat a gallon of sugar syrup every two weeks or so. So far, they are over-wintering well 

Should I be feeding them pollen patties too?

They have a medium super and a half of honey. That's why I'm feeding them.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

This question leaves a lot to be desired in terms of net effect on the bees. Here are my thoughts:

1. If I just want to check on the cluster, any temp is fine so long as its not raining heavily or a strong wind blowing.

2. If I need to break the cluster when there is no brood, I try for 32 degrees or above.

3. If I need to open the brood nest with brood present and breaking the cluster for a very brief time, 45 degrees is the absolute minimum and the time limit is 1 minute or less.

4. If I need to do a full frame inspection opening the brood nest with brood present, I wait for 60 degrees of higher. The bees won't be clustered at this temp but there will be a loose ball surrounding the brood.

Fusion

stranger in a very strange land.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I guess I don't have fixed temperatures. I've been thinking about this one for a few days. A lot of people answering this one are from farther south, so I assume their definitions of "cold" are different than mine.

I will never pop the lid if the temperature is sub-zero Fahrenheit. Even if it's perfectly calm and sunny, if the actual temp is, say, -25F, I think popping the lid for any reason can kill the bees. Even if I felt I needed to add food, I doubt any bees would leave the cluster at those temperatures to reach the food, so I wait.

I do know my bees are not in a cluster at 45 degrees. They're out working, hopefully. Here in South Dakota, we have two seasons: winter and road construction. The growing season is really short if the bees can't be out working at 45F.

By 60F, I would probably throw them out of the hives if they weren't working. Mid-April to mid-May in SD, daily highs are often in that ballpark, and then again from September to mid-October. I tear down hives, if it's sunny and not too windy, with temperatures in the mid-50s.


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## squarehead (Apr 13, 2004)

b100b101 your pail type feeders are they the ones you have to turn up side down?( I dont know if there is another kind) if they are dose your syrup run out when you first turn it over? i want to feed one of my hives but i don't want to pore it all over the cluster


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> ...pail type feeders...
> does your syrup run out when you 
> first turn it over?

If this happens, the pail may not be sealing
properly. There isn't any good "fix" for this
that I could figure out, one reason why I
converted to the hive-top feeders. 

> Should I be feeding them pollen patties too?

Too early. Way too early. Wait until after
the winter solstice. After New Year's.

> If you have to feed your bees mid winter, 
> they dont have a chance in hell anyway!!

For bees in Manitoba, your view is valid.
But south of you, things are different.
The further south, the more different.
We have these things called "warm days"
in winter.









A mild winter will cause the bees to eat
through stores faster than they would in a
cold winter. Faster still for days that are
mild enough to allow flight alternating with
nights cold enough to force clustering,
which tends to accelerate consumption.

Given that one cannot predict "mild" winters,
how does one provision one's bees? Do I feed
1000 lbs of HFCS, and provide 40-50 lbs per
hive, or do I feed 1500 or 2000 lbs of
HFCS, and then take the chance of having
colonies that are "syrup bound" in early
spring when I want space for wall-to-wall
brood.

Clearly, it is easier and cheaper to provision
the smaller amounts, and feed "as needed" based
upon stores utilization in sentinel colonies
and deviation from average temperatures.


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## B100B101 (May 14, 2005)

I fill the pail feeder with 2:1 sugar syrup (that means 10 pounds of sugar dissolved in 1 gallon of water).

Before popping the top (telescoping cover) of the hive, I have the full pail ready. I use my hive tool as a hammer to fully secure the lid on the full pail feeder.

I turn the pail feeder upside down, and at first, sugar syrup pours out of the wire screen opening in the pail's lid. Within a minute, a vacuum develops, so the syrup will not drench the bees. 

The bees must come up to the screen to feed. So far, so good!


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Just turn the pail over before you move it onto the hive. Let it spill on the ground.


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

At the risk of getting too far off topic,I make 2:1 with 8#'s sugar and enough water to make 1 gallon of syrup(which doesn't take a lot of water),Maybe I'm wrong?
I mark the outside of 5 gal. pails at 1 gal. increments with a "sharpie" marker.
Then add the proper amount of sugar for the amount I want to make,then fill it up to the proper line with almost boiling water.
I usually use 25#'s of sugar to make up 3 gal. batches,since I find that I spill less when stiring/pouring/hauling,and several lighter buckets are much easier than a couple heavy ones.
I fill the jars at each hive,when I flip the jar I hold it over the 5 gal. pail to save what drizzels out,and to keep the ants from having a picnic.
Now,back to "Never pop the lid....."

[ December 14, 2005, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: mwjohnson ]


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## B100B101 (May 14, 2005)

I do turn my pail feeder over and let the syrup spill through the screen opening on the lid. When the vacuum forms and it stops dripping (like in about 30 seconds) I put the pail into the hive.

I make my 2:1 syrup with 10 lbs of sugar dissolved in a gallon of warm water. It takes a loooong time and lots of stirring to make it.
I think I'm gonna try using an electric mixer next batch.

PS - I have read that if you use boiling water, it will caramelize the sugar, and the caramelized syrup will kill your bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>PS - I have read that if you use boiling water, it will caramelize the sugar, and the caramelized syrup will kill your bees.

Not true at all. Boil the water. Add the sugar. Stir it in. Turn off the heat. If you're really paranoid, Boil, turn off heat, add sugar and stir. Boiling water is 212 F and no where NEAR hot enough to carmelize sugar. Trying to boil SYRUP can cause carmelization if the surface of the pot gets too hot and you don't stir enough. If you stir enough it works fine.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

B100B101,
I have a mental image of you going out on the roog, rope trailing back into a window and your wife encouraging you. In the other hand she has a cell phone and is upping the insurance. It sounds like what you are doing is fine. I think water is close to 8/9 lbs a gal. That, to 10# of sugar is more like 1 to 1, no?
I never liked the trust in science one needs to have, to upend a bucket, drain it till the vacuum holds, and plop it over the cluster. I bought 5 one gallon feeders last year to experiment. I loaned them to a painter friend for his bees. His employees used them for paint! "Hey boss, what's this little screen in the lid for?"

Dickm


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

water = 8.333 pounds per gallon @ 60F
The density of water changes with temperature.

[ December 15, 2005, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: MountainCamp ]


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## B100B101 (May 14, 2005)

Hi dickm,

Oh if only I had a "wife". She could do my laundry and cook dinner for me every night! 

See, I'm a cute single girl beekeeper who also singlehandedly runs her own entrepreneurial business in New York City. I keep bees for the pure pleasure of their company, and because I've loved honey bees since my earliest memory









And yes, I've seen those white plastic buckets used for paint, for honey flowing out of an extractor, and for pickles at my neighbohood NYC deli


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>New York City

Are you close enough to Central Park to get any flows, or do you feed your honeys year round?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>> Do I feed
1000 lbs of HFCS, and provide 40-50 lbs per
hive, or do I feed 1500 or 2000 lbs of
HFCS,

Must be maintaining your hives in singles,

boy, it must be nice to have the chance to feed throughout the winter. How do you have any wintering losses down there?

[ December 15, 2005, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Ian ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Must be maintaining your hives in singles,

Nope, mediums are the gear of choice around
here. 3 or 4 mediums per brood chamber each.

> How do you have any wintering losses down there?

We don't, for the most part.
We "take our losses" in the fall, combining
the "too weak" with the "not very exceptional".

When we did fall splits, we'd lose some, but
we've stopped doing fall splits, Bob Cole's
advocacy to the contrary. Bob is a few hours
South of here, and has milder winters, so we do
splits in spring once again.

jim
Jedi-Master Beekeeper


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## B100B101 (May 14, 2005)

Hi Mr. George Fergusson,

During the spring and summer, my honey bees frolic all over Manhattan's Central Park, and bring home nectar and pollen. I'm only feeding them sugar syrup now because it was "borderline" re whether they had enough honey to overwinter without supplemental feeding.

It's my first year of beekeeping, so I did not harvest any of their honey. I left it for them, for winter.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>> so we do
splits in spring once again.

Whens your main flows,?


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>During the spring and summer, my honey bees frolic all over Manhattan's Central Park

I'm sure they do







I don't imagine there are a lot of beekeepers in Manhattan, but I do remember reading a magazine article about someone in NYC that kept bees on his rooftop.

Good luck with your bees!

George-


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## B100B101 (May 14, 2005)

I don't wanna bad-mouth anybody, but the "famous" media-covered NYC rooftop beekeeper is the only beekeeper I've ever met who wasn't kind, friendly, and helpful. Maybe he felt I could become his competition re honey sales. And that's not what I'm about at all!

Thanks for the good wishes!


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## B100B101 (May 14, 2005)

I don't wanna bad-mouth anybody, but the "famous" media-covered NYC rooftop beekeeper is the only beekeeper I've ever met who wasn't kind, friendly, and helpful. Maybe he felt I could become his competition re honey sales. And that's not what I'm about at all!

Thanks for the good wishes!


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

David Graves is a differnt type. Keep in mind he is in the Manhatten Green Markets dealing with the out of towners that work in Apple and probably deals with similar types all day. (That's no excuse) Of course bees are his 2nd crop and the Mayor does not want his bees (or yours for that matter) on rooftops thanks to the reputation bees get from their neigbors the hornets, yellow jackets and wasps. Are you getting any Linden Honey. 

Do you think he really hauls the thousands of pounds of honey he sells each year off those rooftops, back to NH (I think that's where he hails from) and extract bottles and hauls it back to the City?

By the way I saw some of your bees at my stand in GCP at the easter Eggstravaganza this spring.


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## Pat Brady (Jan 18, 2005)

FordGuy if you have to know what's going on in your hive, use an old steth-o-scope and knock on the hive side and lísten. If they are alive you will hear them. If you don't have a need (like feeding) to open, I would not open the hive.


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## Pat Brady (Jan 18, 2005)

I may be missing something here, but I think you should get your hives ready for winter in Sept. & Oct. The bees can move the stores where they need them. like Jim Fischer said, you can get your hive honey bound. They need empty cells in Jan. to raise brood in. If they don't have room they won't raise very much brood. In other words. they can't expand their brood nest. M.H.O. I believe you can over feed.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Pat,

Couldn't you just give them more cells to raise bees on (eg empty frames or a super)?


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## Pat Brady (Jan 18, 2005)

Couldn't you just give them more cells to raise bees on (eg empty frames or a super)? 

Yes you can. 
Walt Wright calls this Nectar Management. 
{http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/Walt's%20BIO.htm}

The link didn't enable. You can type it in. 

My point is that some people continue to feed when the hive has plenty of stores. When the bees start the build up they need room to expand their broodnest.


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## Jim Young (Aug 31, 2004)

Copy and paste the link excluding the symbols { } into your web browser and press the Enter key.

http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/Walt's%20BIO.htm


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