# Top Bars "Pros and Cons" Presentation



## mrjackcoleman

I am a first year beekeeper and a KTBH beekeeper. I was asked to share my experiences with KTBHs with my bee club.

I've included the link to the presentation so if you want to use it by all means, go ahead.

Most all of the clear pictures are of my hives and the ones which are not as sharp are ones I downloaded from the internet. There are mistakes I know, but I tried not to make many. Like the picture with the bread knife is stuck too far into the brace comb (I had to do this to hold the knife as I took the pictures myself).

I also brought in a new KTBH as a display model for people to handle. It was well received especially as there were only three of us in the entire club who had experience with KTBHs. I had never met these two guys before so it was nice to become contacts for each other. I had several people ask if they could come by my place and take a look...which I'm glad to oblige.

I used info from Michael Bush's website, so thank you sir for all your wonderful resources! I have my notes from the presentation, so if this would help someone, I'd be glad to share this as well.

Here's the link to the Prezi website where the presentation is accessible. Hope you like it; I had fun creating it...

http://prezi.com/zoktonzgoeze/kenya-top-bar-hive-ktbh/


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## Mr.Beeman

Nice presentation.


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## SteveBee

That looks good, Jack. We (Greg & I) gave a similar presentation to our bee club earlier this week and it went over very well.


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## Skinner Apiaries

Super cool presentation. More cons than pros. Dont know why anybody would run these.


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## RiodeLobo

Skinner Apiaries said:


> Dont know why anybody would run these.


Because it is fun to try new things.


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## SteveBee

Don't know why anyone who doesn't run them would feel the need to make a comment like that.


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## Skinner Apiaries

well because new beeks do dumb things. Very dumb things. because pesticide will never make it in my hive nope, Im all organic, and every flower in 50 miles has never seen pesticide. My point is TBH's are pollyanna specials. You think you're making some great leap to good organic blah blah blah, and you're really setting the bees up for more problems and harder management as well as making it harder for you the beekeeper to see any profit whatsoever. People will dump pkgs on foundation-less without feeding them thinking its a great idea, and one local here with a tbh didnt even take the cork out of the queen cage. It's noobie stuff, and noobies need to be aware with how fraught with disillusionment and disappointment the managing of one is. Now, since you pointed that out without actually knowing what I have and haven't done, steve, fact is I've run several log gums, all very spectacularly unsuccessfully. Now, if someone said Im going to run a small cell langstroth, Id say good genetics can give you all those benefits without all the trouble that small cell brings with it. Fact is, a well mated queen is going to have a fun time getting into small cell, but that's usually not a problem with commercial queens, as they aren't all as well bred. 

As to it's fun to try new things, I agree, I have some hobby pigs that are never going to make me any money, but I enjoy watching them tear thru the dirt. I digress, sure if youre just doing one for the heck of it go to it, but as to the rest of that chem free mumbo jumbo, small cell top bar will not save you. Good genetics is the only solution there. And if you just have a couple the no treatment thing is probably going to disappoint. No treatment is good on a selection kill breeding platform, where you have say, 100 hives and want to kill 98 of them by not treating. Anyways, that's my .99 cents of opinion, experience, and disappointment with all of the above. Good luck!


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## SteveBee

Wow. I have met Jack. And I know how far he has come in a short time. And I don't think TBHs are the "answer" to everything. I am just surprised sometimes at the lack of tact some people use. I wasn't doubting your experience and expertise...maybe just your people skills.


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## Skinner Apiaries

I would agree with that


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## SRBrooks

Beeks can do stupid things no matter what kind of hive we're using, and it's not only new beeks who make mistakes. I use TBHs, and am also into that "chem free mumbo jumbo," as you put it. There isn't one right way to keep bees, and I'm doing what works the best with my mindset and attitude toward bees. 

You said good genetics is the only solution re: small cell top bar? Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying you are NOT working toward good genetics?


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## Skinner Apiaries

Im saying you're a hobbyist, and that cell size is a stop gap that successful vsh genetics has significantly reduced. If you like small cell so much, buy the embosser I have on the for sale section, only a grand. You can make all the small cell foundation you want. My point? Name a small cell migratory. Name ONE. Ok, let's try name one TBH guy that moves them. More than 50? no? I have selected for a few things, in this order, brood nest size, mite resistance, and gentleness. Ive done this with stock from COMMERCIAL outfits from across the entire continent. Of course, what do I know, since I dont run top bar hives, I must not have these silly framed papers on the wall with Dave Tarpy's name on them, nooo not at all. To each his own. But noobs need direction, and not direction that sets them up for disappointment. PS, chem free as you are youll find pesticide residue in your combs regardless, and with soft chems like thymol and formic, and essential oils, that point to not treat is pretty moot, residue wise. Subscribe to the ABJ if you havent there's good info on that sorta thing in there.


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## SteveBee

I don't understand what cell size has to do with migratory beekeeping. Please explain.


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## Skinner Apiaries

It's not main stream. It's a niche thing that takes you out of using similar gear and non-regressed bees that the rest of the commercial world uses. It sounds like its not a big deal, but it is. It severely limits your genetics you can buy and what you can run. I also highly endorse plastic foundation with loads and loads of extra wax. Reusable combs are the entire point. This unsupported stuff is usually very unstable and falls down, not to mention its limited to its ability to be extracted. I played with it some. I decided the VSH queens were a better angle. And after doing a selection and killing a lot of bees I can confidently say that better genetics will yield you all of the benefits of small cell, without the impracticality of it.


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## JYawn

It seems to me that the disconnect here is that we are talking differences between a hobby beek who is having fun and beek who runs a larger apiary.

Ultimately we are arguing differences in opinions. I agree with both sides in a sense. I think running TBH and going chem free would be almost ridiculous for anyone actually running any kind of operation over just a handfull of hives... However I think it's a great idea to try if you are more interested in beekeeping as a hobby. I think it is important to have both sides b/c we can learn from each. It gives the wider beekeeping community greater perspectives and comparisons between the two and ultimately this helps us continue to learn more about tactics and methods to keeping bees.

Beekeeping has been done many different ways over the past... ohhhh couple thousands of years! So I dont think anyone should ever tell anyone else that a particular method is absolutely wrong, but it's certainly ok to express your opinions.... so yeah, I guess that is my opinion.


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## Skinner Apiaries

diplomatic. I agree. Good luck with the TBH kiddos. Maybe I'm having caffeine withdrawl?


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## SRBrooks

Skinner:

How can reusable combs be "the entire point"? And no one is saying you don't know anything, just that you have a totally different opinion. What do I care if I don't use "similar gear" and if I have "regressed bees [unlike] the rest of the commercial world uses."? Also, we can extract honey; we just do it differently than you do. I just don't understand how, if your genetics are so good, you feel the need to treat the heck out of your bees. Won't you be contributing to the development of resistances in the long run? I truly do want to understand this, and am not trying to be argumentative.


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## SantaFeBeek

Some of us subscribe to the old motto, "First, do no harm." We want to raise bees, as well as grow our own foods, etc, that aren't completely laced with and/or dependent on chemicals. The dependence on chemicals is causing huge problems to the earth overall and our children and grandchildren down the line will have to deal with it. 

Some people could care less and just want to make a buck and feed people contaminated honey and other foods, the earth and future generations be ****ed! They will call anything that doesn't fit into their "money is the only thing that matters" mentality "mumbo jumbo" because they can't see beyond their own bank accounts to the real costs of what they are introducing into the environment. Sounds alot like the Monsanto mentality.

Forgot to add, nice presentation, Jack.


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## SRBrooks

I may be just another tree-hugger, but I'm committed to a lifestyle as green as I can have it. I want the same for my bees. 

BeeWeaver Apiaries has been chemical-free for ten years now, and they're not just hobbyists. 

Very well said, SantaFeBeek. Thank you.


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## SantaFeBeek

Thank you, SRBrooks. I just get a little riled when people try to bully others into "my way is the only way" and "because that's the way we've always done it" without any real concern for others, especially for their own offspring. Selfish is the only word for it.


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## cerezha

Hello everybody
I am replying mainly to Skinner Apiaries comments. As an bee-hobbyst, I studied a lot about honey bees and to me it is obvious that commercial beekeeping in US is a huge fail. How you could call it a success, if bees population in US reduced by 50% in recent years. All this Varroa and other issue is a result of commercial (unwise in my opinion) approaches - more profit, more honey, less money spent on bees, ignorance of any research indicating the problems... Look at this forum - many talks how bees survived winter, many replaced bees/queens every season... is this may be considered a success? 50% success rate on global US scale? What really strikes me on this particular forum, is how people stuck to their personal/commercial dogmas of beekeeping and their ignorance to obvious very simple observations and facts (sorry, nothing personal). KTBs exists for perhaps 100 (I guess more) years in Kenya and brought to US as another attempt to improve bees well-doing in this country. Thousands people successfully used K/TBs and nevertheless, such great ignorance... I was literally accused in trolling in another thread where we discussed foundationless approach. Apparently, plastic P120 (whatever it is) is an answer to most of our problems! The fact that hundreds and hundreds people successfully used top bars was just considered to be a nuisance. Regarding pesticides -it was just hilarious - I guess, commercial bee-traditionalists united to fight with me rather to learn something new or useful from discussion. As a result they go so far, that "approved" the usage of pesticides... Take a look, it is good nighttime reading (long!):
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-please-explain-the-Foundationless-hype-to-me
_Disclaimer:_ I am a bee-hobbyst who learns. My bees are treatment-free, I use top-bars, I do not re-use wax in beehive,my bees never eat syrup. My colonies are 3 years old and flourish. My colonies are survivors and commercial queens never visit us. And yes, I am a "novice" since my official (registered) beekeeping is just over 10 months. Sergey


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## JRG13

I don't think Skinner meant to offend anyone, he just doesn't sugar coat his opinions like most people. That being said, some people like doing things in a more challenging way, so kudos for that as well. Cerezha, you kind of agreed with skinner too... you have survivor bees... aka good genetics which is what he was saying. I always find it amusing when people start bashing pesticides and commercial ag practices then go to the supermarket or wherever and then complain about all the fruits/veggies with bug holes in them and won't pay more than 20 cents for a head of lettuce. We have to produce food cheaply because it's what the majority of our population demands.


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## SantaFeBeek

Many people who bash pesticides and commercial ag practices grow as much of their own food as possible and support local CSAs, cooperatives, farmers' markets, etc, and don't have a problem paying what real food is worth. What is funny to me is how few people really THINK about what they are putting into their bodies on a daily basis and how that affects them.


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## Skinner Apiaries

SRBrooks said:


> Skinner:
> 
> How can reusable combs be "the entire point"? And no one is saying you don't know anything, just that you have a totally different opinion. What do I care if I don't use "similar gear" and if I have "regressed bees [unlike] the rest of the commercial world uses."? Also, we can extract honey; we just do it differently than you do. I just don't understand how, if your genetics are so good, you feel the need to treat the heck out of your bees. Won't you be contributing to the development of resistances in the long run? I truly do want to understand this, and am not trying to be argumentative.


You select bees for a breeding program with no chemicals, and thereby kill a crap load of them to get breeders that you use II to cross in to their selves and repeat. If you kill less than 100 hives it's basically spitting in the wind as per Dr. Tarpy. I got kinda pissy with him about that fact, but he's right. So I killed 150 or so to get to my base genetics. do YOU want to kill 150 production hives? I didnt do it on purpose, inactive miticides, who knew. But a bunch of dead hives later, I have good selection and out crossing with good II stock, and crossing back in to secure a closer line to the original, outcrossed again and sold as well bred hybrids. Which, people seem to like. I'm telling you, that you can kick the mite can down the road, but you cannot do anything reliably on scale without treating. On top of which, if you cann thymol, that's THYME OIL and HBH (That's Lemongrass essential oil) is some bad chems, you should see what I started out with. Chem residue in comb is a problem, but you arent going to reduce it alot just by not treating. There's alot in incoming nectar. the studies are there. If you want to ignore them that's cool. Resistance is higher with some chems than others. Rotations help. We're just getting off of formic. Nasty stuff. No/low residue.


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## cerezha

JRG13 said:


> ... Cerezha, you kind of agreed with skinner too... you have survivor bees... aka good genetics which is what he was saying.


I do not think so. My bees are doing well not because only "genetics". They do well, because I use a complex approach - I use top bars and let bees to use the space as they wish; I do not stress them moving 1000 miles every year; I left them enough honey and I provide to them a safe home. Skinner was talking about "traditional" management. I am against it since in my opinion it is not effective (based on statistics regarding decline in US bees population). My logic is: if "commercial" approach in beekeeping creates so many problems to bees, we need to explore other approaches. Who would do it? Commercial beekeepers (sorry for generalization - not you), see, they are talking about profit and how save couple of $$ on bees... they will continue to do their business in their way... From another side, we, bee-enthusiasts are open for experiments. We are trying different things, which may or may not benefit to bees. One day such "hobbyist" will create a new approach (and may be new bees), which revolutionized the whole industry. It was happened many times before (unfortunately not in bees area), it *WILL *happens again. Is this bad? Why we are under attack? In my opinion, it would be much smarter if "traditionalists" instead bullying us, will try to see the reasons behind our tries... and help by providing balanced thoughtful advise... I have a deep respect to Michael Bush - he is a real gem in this forum. Many thanks Mike, for your advises! Sergey


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## Skinner Apiaries

See, I got a guy down the road mentioned my name, corn syrup, and honey in the same sentence. I put HBH in my syrup so its impossible to contaminate and not know. Needless to say, we forewent litigation because he dosent have anything, can't get blood out of a turnip, but I had a nice conversation with him. Attacking primary sources of income is a dangerous game, not saying you are, but you're blindly making that argument. For the third time, so you'll see it in this quote, there was a study recently, in the ABJ, there is pesticide in all honey. period. There are tolerance levels. It has nothing to do with your inputs to the hive. Its just out there. Being an operator of a farm and an apiary, I can say quite confidently, I use systemics and my bees dont die. My winter losses are below national averages. I find the majority of my losses are on old combs, which DO have pesticide residue. I do no use Comaphos or fluvatine, or traz. Not because they arent out there, but because I think the residue time on combs means I need to sell more nucs, and Id much rather build up. 



SantaFeBeek said:


> Some of us subscribe to the old motto, "First, do no harm." We want to raise bees, as well as grow our own foods, etc, that aren't completely laced with and/or dependent on chemicals. The dependence on chemicals is causing huge problems to the earth overall and our children and grandchildren down the line will have to deal with it.
> 
> Some people could care less and just want to make a buck and feed people contaminated honey and other foods, the earth and future generations be ****ed! They will call anything that doesn't fit into their "money is the only thing that matters" mentality "mumbo jumbo" because they can't see beyond their own bank accounts to the real costs of what they are introducing into the environment. Sounds alot like the Monsanto mentality.
> 
> Forgot to add, nice presentation, Jack.


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## Skinner Apiaries

Beeweavers are hot. They arent as unworkable as apis mellifera mellifera, but they're close. Im not going to say they're africanized, but they are fairly hot. My experience with them, and a couple other operators is similar. They are also kinda susceptible Foul brood. You want a good line get some Polline's. That's the best thing I've ever run. 



SRBrooks said:


> I may be just another tree-hugger, but I'm committed to a lifestyle as green as I can have it. I want the same for my bees.
> 
> BeeWeaver Apiaries has been chemical-free for ten years now, and they're not just hobbyists.
> 
> Very well said, SantaFeBeek. Thank you.


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## SantaFeBeek

Skinner Apiaries said:


> Chem residue in comb is a problem, but you arent going to reduce it alot just by not treating. There's alot in incoming nectar. the studies are there. If you want to ignore them that's cool.


The studies show that the majority of chemicals in the comb are from treatment, not incoming nectar. If you want to ignore that, that's cool, too.


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## Skinner Apiaries

welp, come test my combs then. Id like to know what magically got in there I didnt put in there, other than probably asana xl, assail, carabyl and all those nasties. Because theres no checkmite, not traz, miteaway 1, I burned enough gear to make the collective non commercial forum cry. Youre ignoring what I said about what I use, or just dont have a clue. And this, is why I rarely wander from the commercial forum *sigh*


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## SantaFeBeek

Wow. this must be so exhausting for you...poor thing. Wander back to where you came from, then. No one asked you to come over and bash TBHs. Ignorance is bliss!!


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## RiodeLobo

SantaFeBeek said:


> Wander back to where you came from, then. No one asked you to come over and bash TBHs.


Ever wonder why we don't benefit from a wealth of knowledge and experience? Here is your answer.



SantaFeBeek said:


> Ignorance is bliss!!


Only if you do not know you are ignorant. I do and will value experience (even contrary) over some one riding a tall horse.


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## cerezha

Skinner Apiaries said:


> ... Im all organic, and every flower in 50 miles has never seen pesticide.


 I look in the google maps - it looks like there are quite a bit of the farmland around your property. How you could claim that others do not use a pesticides, and bees did not bring it into your hives?
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Skinner+Apiaries&btnK=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
I also was not able to find your organic certification/credentials. Do you have a proof? Thing about this is that for commercial - claiming to be an "organic" is a responsibility, otherwise - a false statement.
Sergey


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## SantaFeBeek

RiodeLobo said:


> Ever wonder why we don't benefit from a wealth of knowledge and experience? Here is your answer.


Yes, has nothing to do with bullying people into thinking that your way is the only way and that trying new things is a waste of time, huh? Makes total sense!


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## RiodeLobo

Sergey, not to speak for Skinner, but that is not how I read that comment. It was an indication of the foolish thoughts of us noobs.


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## RiodeLobo

SantaFeBeek said:


> Yes, has nothing to do with bullying people into thinking that your way is the only way and that trying new things is a waste of time, huh? Makes total sense!


He was not the one telling people to shut up and leave because he did not like your opinion or point of view. 
Hello Mr. Pot.


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## Skinner Apiaries

The thread is the pros and cons. I see alot of cons. So no, I didnt wander into TBH land to bash anybody's outfit. However. To presume that I make statements without having knowledge or someone Ive talked to about a subject without knowledge would be foolish. My primary income is bees. I have tried alot of these 'gimmicks' and lost money and the bees suffered for it, so I'm pointing them out as what they are. To my point, noobs be ware, if it sounds too good to be true...


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## SantaFeBeek

RiodeLobo said:


> He was not the one telling people to shut up and leave because he did not like your opinion or point of view.
> Hello Mr. Pot.


Just the one complaining about how tiresome it is to have anyone disagree with his all-knowing self.


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## Tom Brueggen

Skinner Apiaries said:


> ...People will dump pkgs on foundation-less without feeding them thinking its a great idea, and one local here with a tbh didnt even take the cork out of the queen cage.


Sounds like your friend is an idiot. I imagine if he had a Lang hive he still would have forgotten to unplug the queen cage. Maybe you should reevaluate that friendship  It's at this point that you lost all credibility in this argument. Not to discredit your experience, as I'm sure it's more than mine, but every argument has it's place, and mostly here I just see a bunch of non-relevant arguments.

Here's my two cents: I read about beekeeping for 8 months before getting bees. Right off the bat I knew I wanted to start with something natural, and that I needed chemical free bees. Enter Beeweaver. Someone else mentioned it, but they've got my endorsement as well. My bees are doing great. 

I started with TBH's because I wanted to be as natural as possible. Not for any green hippie beliefs, just because I honestly believe that centuries of evolution cannot be changed by a few decades of research with chemicals. The idea of letting the bees do what they believe was right appealed to me, so go foundationless. The cheapness appealed to me too, as I built my first TBH from scraps in the garage. 

After committing to TBH, and working with them for a few months, I've quickly observed some faults. But I still appreciate the more natural appeal. My next venture will be on a foundationless Lang. 

I've already acknowledged that is I were to go into commercial honey production or migratory pollination that I would have to go full Lang. But until that time comes, I'll continue to approach everything with an open mind. And by God, if I have to, I'll learn from my mistakes along the way. But anyone that flies off the handle and goes on one-sided rants on a public forum (that until now I really appreciated for a lack of such rants) will earn zero points in my book. The beekeeping community is a rare on indeed, where I've seen only generosity and helpfulness. Come on Skinner, don't ruin it. With all due respect, I've learned a lot about beekeeping in my three months of experience, and the number one thing I've learned, is that sometimes it's best to learn for ourselves, and not just follow blindly when told what to do. After all, our government tries to tell us all what's best every day, and almost always without fail, we argue back. 

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now. But please everyone, be considerate of other opinions and beliefs before flying off on tangents on the forums. I'm out!


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## SantaFeBeek

"Being an operator of a farm and an apiary, I can say quite confidently, I use systemics and my bees dont die."

There are sub-lethal effects. If you're reading the literature, you know this. Just because your bees don't die does not mean that systemics aren't harmful to both the bees and society at large.


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## cerezha

RiodeLobo said:


> Sergey, not to speak for Skinner, but that is not how I read that comment. It was an indication of the foolish thoughts of us noobs.


 sure
I was trying to make a sense (for myself) from what he was saying... I always do and usually got punishment for my intentions...


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## cerezha

Skinner Apiaries said:


> ... The thread is the pros and cons. I see alot of cons.


 Skinner
You did not present any single fact against or for KTB (main subject of this thread). You just presented your emotions, feelings in quite disrespectful to others (who is not with you) way. But, I would not change my opinion just because some stranger accused me to be an idiot... I need facts. What is your FACTS regarding KTB? How many KTBs you had; for how long? did you uncork queen cell for KTB? and so on. Present information, not emotions! See, you get on TBs territory - people on THIS TB forum are much more experienced in *TB* than you! If you smart - you could learn from others. Tell us what was the problem with YOUR TBs and may be, this forum could help you if you open for it. It is never too late to learn a new stuff. You indicated that you are 5 years in beekeeping. I do not think, it gives you a big credit - there are people on this forum with 30+ years experience and they are much less opinionated than you. It is my understanding that the best beekeeper's wisdom is that there is no a single solution in beekeeping. Sergey


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## JRG13

cerezha said:


> I do not think so. My bees are doing well not because only "genetics". They do well, because I use a complex approach - I use top bars and let bees to use the space as they wish; I do not stress them moving 1000 miles every year; I left them enough honey and I provide to them a safe home. Skinner was talking about "traditional" management. I am against it since in my opinion it is not effective (based on statistics regarding decline in US bees population). My logic is: if "commercial" approach in beekeeping creates so many problems to bees, we need to explore other approaches. Who would do it? Commercial beekeepers (sorry for generalization - not you), see, they are talking about profit and how save couple of $$ on bees... they will continue to do their business in their way... From another side, we, bee-enthusiasts are open for experiments. We are trying different things, which may or may not benefit to bees. One day such "hobbyist" will create a new approach (and may be new bees), which revolutionized the whole industry. It was happened many times before (unfortunately not in bees area), it *WILL *happens again. Is this bad? Why we are under attack? In my opinion, it would be much smarter if "traditionalists" instead bullying us, will try to see the reasons behind our tries... and help by providing balanced thoughtful advise... I have a deep respect to Michael Bush - he is a real gem in this forum. Many thanks Mike, for your advises! Sergey


You still have good genetics bottom line though, but look at what you're saying... you're in the minority of how you manage your bees. Most new people and hobbyist don't try half as hard as you if at all. Which is what Skinner was eluding too earlier. How many new beeks totally immerse themselves before buying bees? From certain posts, most don't even know what a drone looks like and people are encouraging them to make things harder for by using TBH's, go treatment free, go foundationless etc....


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## cerezha

JRG13 said:


> You still have good genetics bottom line though, but look at what you're saying... *==> see below*
> you're in the minority of how you manage your bees. * ==> Not true - most amateur beekeepers do the same!*
> Most new people and hobbyist don't try half as hard as you if at all. * ==> Not true - most amateur beekeepers are very serious about beekeeping!*
> Which is what Skinner was eluding too earlier. How many new beeks totally immerse themselves before buying bees? * Many!*
> From certain posts, most don't even know what a drone looks like and people are encouraging them to make things harder for by using TBH's, go treatment free, go foundationless etc....*==> see below*


 I disagree. 
The "genetics" of my bees is unknown, thus you could not make an assumption that it gives me any advantage in keeping these particular bees. I am quite sure that any other bees will do the same in my hands simply because I studied the subject for many months before I felt I could handle it. I am a scientist and I am a good learner. I prefer to learn from others mistakes (this is why I am here)... 
As for KTBs - again, I disagree with you. In my opinion, it is actually easier to start from KTBs rather than to convert from the Lang. You could find on this forum my personal sad story how I was trying to convert Lang into KTB... 
I am a member of numerous bee-clubs, here in LA and I have to tell you, that all "novice" beekeepers are very serious about bees. We have bee-classes and I am sure that these "beginners" know more about bees than many "traditionalists"... also, there are a lot of volunteers, who will help "beginners" with bees if there is any problem. Amateur beekeeping is very strong these days. It looks like many commercial bee-professionals are living in the past... disconnected from reality... Remember Thomas Edison? He was amateur in most fields and nevertheless brings to us a telegraph, a light-bulb and many other inventions - more than 1500. If he would follow "traditional" way, we'll still live in the houses illuminated by candles... Irresponsible "beekeeping" by "experienced" professional beekeepers contributed a lot to bees problems in US. I apologize for generalization - I am sure, there are lot of professional beekeepers who DO care about bees - my comments are withing the discussion in this particular thread. 
I think we need to return back to thread's original content - *Top Bars "Pros and Cons" Presentation *. Very good, balanced presentation! If you read it - you could see that it was stated from the very beginning that KTB _is not compared_ to commercial Lang. * It is about KTB. * Thus, all Skinner's emotions are useless... He did not present any single argument for or against KTB. He effectively distracts us from the subject of this discussion. Such behavior has a name in i-net community. Do you know the name?
Sergey


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## JRG13

He's trolling and you're all biting?? Survivor stock implies good genetics, at least that's what Darwin thought. Don't get me wrong Sergey, I'm not bashing top bars. And about the amateurs, look at all the posts here... perhaps I worded it wrong, many do try hard and take it seriously, but react too much and cannot appropriately apply what they've learned which is what I saw in school.... many people are great at memorizing theories, equations, concepts, but cannot successfully apply them to solve the problem at hand.


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## JRG13

Looking at the presentation though, the exact same thing can be said about langs..... A box costs what... $15 on average? 10 frames for under $15, bottom board $12, Top board $12.... Buy your boxes pre assembled, doesn't come easier than that... No heavy boxes to lift??? who says you have to pull the whole box off at once?? You can move single frames just as easily into a holding box sitting next to you... all natural, go foundationless. And just because comb is new does not mean it has no residues or that your honey isn't laced with whatever systemics/pesticides that have been used around your area. A lot of assumptions are being made on both sides here.


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## cerezha

No, I am not biting. It is not my style. I just feel that people need to understand how serious bees problem is. 
As for amateurs - Russian say "learning from mistakes". Beekeeping has its own learning curve. Many students in my lab have very long "curve" and what, should I treat them as Skinner did? Would you be happy, if your kid will be treated this way just because s/he is inexperienced? KBT is actually great way to learn. It typically has an observation window and management is very simple, no "deeps", mediums etc... no stuck frames, no struggle with cell-size etc... 
It is actually an irony, because historically I got my bees in Langs and I hate it! My attempt to convert Lang into KTB pathetically fails - bees dictated what they wanted. So, I am working on Lang modification for now: I already removed all normal frames and replaced them on truncated version - top bars only. Next step - entirely different design of the top bars. 
I think, the problem is that "traditional" beekeeping instructions are so controversial and unclear - this is what confuses the beginners. I read enough on beekeeping to conclude that this is most controversial area of knowledge I ever saw. Reading this forum just supports my conclusion.
Sergey


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## cerezha

JRG13 said:


> Looking at the presentation though, the exact same thing can be said about langs...


JRG
Since, I am complete novice in traditional beekeeping, I could present my unbiased opinion on Langs.
*Convenience:*
- traditional, people familiar with this.
- standard dimensions, interchangeable, famous Dadant-style frame.
- adding/removing supers for(with) honey is easy
- relatively small footprint
- transportation is easy for small hives.
- "gold standard" for pollination business.
- centrifugal extraction is possible.
- easy scalable.

*Inconvenience:*
- too many parts, confusing sizes and terminology - deeps, mediums, supers, bottom board, screened board, telescopic cover, transportation cover... inner cover! 
- deeps and mediums in the nest are not interchangeable, which eliminates the advantage of unified sizes.
- *Most important to me* _- to inspect the nest - hive needs to be break apart, which is a stress to the bees._
- Moving boxes is inconvenient (heavy, stick together etc).
- traditional frames are difficult to manage - they are often cemented by propolis. Beehive-tool damaged the wooden parts of the frame and the hive.
- Building a traditional frame is time-consuming. Somebody reported on this forum that they used 20(!) staples per frame.
- boxes are difficult to make without proper tools; pre-assembled boxes are expensive; shipping is expensive. Free shipping is not available all the time.
- ventilation in hot climate may be a problem.
- screened bottom may cause too much ventilation - large open area is difficult to manage by bees. May not be used if treatments.
- classical finger joints on the boxes may be damaged by weather and needs to be properly sealed and painted. 

All these pros and cons are debatable and this is my personal non-professional hobbyist opinion. I intentionally did not compare the Lang to KTB since it is two entirely different approaches.
Sergey


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## AkDan

Most important to me - to inspect the nest - hive needs to be break apart, which is a stress to the bees.

....

Well put a window on your lang and be done with it!

Since I'm a nooob....how can we deal with these con's and be successful? I dont need pounds of honey, I live alone, they are fun to keep, and if they dont swarm I'll be happy....if I can figure out how to overwinter them....estatic. Just came in from making sawdust on a third hive....measure 5 times cut once I'm still off LOL! Time for some sleep.


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## Skinner Apiaries

Never say, "if they dont swarm" They will always swarm. Its depressing. Requeening can cut it down, but they still swarm. And if you cant super they swarm even more, wait.. you cant super a top bar hive? Ill let the trolls eat that one up whilst I go work.


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## SantaFeBeek

Never needed to super a top bar hive and never had a swarm. If the TBH gets too full, then it is time to take honey and/or make a split. No problem, no swarm, and no supers.


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## SRBrooks

Skinner: Besides overcrowding, doesn't swarming usually occur because the hive is strong and healthy? Again, a real difference in attitude here. I hope my hives are strong and healthy, and if they swarm, wouldn't it mean they were doing well, TBH and all?


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## SRBrooks

SantaFeBeek: How long have your hives been established, and how much of the living area have the bees built out? My TBHs are so roomy that it would probably take a few years for the girls to completely fill it. If the girls are that jammin', fantastic!!! You go, girls!


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## SantaFeBeek

I've had a couple for 3-years, one that I started this year and split about a month ago, but I also took an April through Sept class at a local place called Ecoversity my first year where they keep about 15-20 hives at their location about a mile from me that the students basically manage each year. There are quite a few TBH enthusiasts in NM. Maybe they work better here than in other locations.

My hives, as well as the ones at Ecoversity, are all 44 inches long and hold about 30 top bars (Les Crowder design). In my location (high desert, ~6800 ft elev.) we need a minimum of about 13 bars to make it through the winter. So, I've let the bees build out to about 20-25 bars before making splits. At Ecoversity, there were quite a few hives that were built out completely, and those were usually harvested for honey (both to supplement weaker hives and for eating) and very often split. Many of their hives have been established for 10-years now, and most all newer ones are splits. They do a couple of packages a year, as well, for demos for the class.

The TBH that I started this year with Beeweaver package began with maybe 8 bars of previously drawn comb from my other hives, and quite a few bars that had an inch or so of comb on them from honey harvest, so they went like gangbusters and I was up to 20 bars in a month to maybe 6 weeks with feeding and inserting empty bars between brood combs once the weather was warmer.

I also started two langs this year just to experiment, both with beeweaver packages, as well. One of the queens absconded, so that set one back a bit, but I just added the first super above two deeps to the stronger one, so not doing all that bad considering the drought we are in. We're just starting to get into the monsoon rains, so flows should be picking up soon.


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## Skinner Apiaries

SantaFeBeek said:


> Never needed to super a top bar hive and never had a swarm. If the TBH gets too full, then it is time to take honey and/or make a split. No problem, no swarm, and no supers.


Swarms will happen relative to queen age. Overcrowding is a trigger, but what you consider to be doing well and what they consider to be doing well is entirely different. They may decide 10 frames is plenty of space, time to swarm BAM swarm. Or they might make 40 frames and leave with 25 lbs of bees and god knows how much honey.


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## cerezha

SantaFe:
Very impressive. I am jealous! Our city permits only 2 beehives on the property. I inherited two Langs. I was trying to convert one into KTBH, it fails - girls did not cooperate at all! So, I still have two Langs, but my dream is to switch to KTBH as soon as possible. I think Langs especially inconvenient in urban situation. 

See, one just need to learn how to run TBHs from experts!

By the way, speaking about "supers" on KTBH. It is just indication that some people just completely unaware how TBH works. TBH experts, forgive me my simplified explanation:
TBH has two "ends", entrance and "exit" (in the sense that it is exit for ready product, honey), opposite to entrance. At the entrance we have the nest, at the "exit" we have honey. Bees are expanding the honey storage towards the "exit". Once honey storage approaching the "exit" (end) - you just remove bars with honey and add a few more empty bars. It is good idea always to have a few empty bars at the "exit" (end). It is like conveyer: at the entrance you have a supply and materials, than - assembly line and at the "exit" (end) - a final product, honey. You do not wait for "super" to be full, you just remove honey at the "exit" when it is ready. This way, TBH always has extra space. If nest is too big - you just split it. SantaFe explains everything very clearly, but it looks like some people still did not get it. 

As for swarming. Swarming is a part of bees reproductive cycle. More good/strong bees reproduced (natural selection), less problem we shall have. If you limit reproduction, you break the process of the natural selection (it works only when cycle is completed) and therefore have weaker bees - as a result, people re-queen artificially literally every year (and very proud...) - bad - selection did not work, 50% bees in US gone! If you will continue to do so, you will have more and more weaker bees. It is just mother Nature law.
Sergey


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## Skinner Apiaries

yea, no. Swarm management is about proper hive space and queen age. I think the amount of pesticide, specifically fungicide exposure has more to do with queen life expectancy, thus bi annual requeens are bigger now. Seriously, you want a healthy hive, knock her off and requeen her every fall. Did I mention she wont swarm during the initial flow, even IF she's honeybound? And by then you can super throw a cell in a protector and say see ya.


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## shannonswyatt

Dang! I go on vacation and miss all the fun! I love the presentation. It is pretty cool way that it moves from point to point. I would like to add one more point on TBH's, and it is the reason that I got one. You can have a window on the side of the hive that makes it easy to view the workings on the hive, either for yourself, you kids, or people interested in honey bees. If you put a window on a Lang you get a nice view of some lumber. Yes, you can build an observation hive, but I wouldn't call an observation hive a working hive. The ones I've seen seem understaffed, and you certainly are not going to get production out of an observation hive!

I would agree that Langs produce more honey, but probably isn't what it is about for TBH operators.


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## cerezha

AkDan said:


> Well put a window on your lang and be done with it!


It is amusing how everything is connected. If you are working Lang hive from the long side (entrance is in the short side) than it is convenient to have handles on the short sides to move boxes. If one wants to put window in Lang box, it should be in the short side to see frames from the side (well, not much to see). Window will conflict with handle... also, in my opinion, window will make box structurally weak. I was thinking about it... it is possible to do it if top bars is used in Lang and if handle moved up (or down) to the top (bottom) of the box. But structural integrity is still an issue... also, making windows in ALL boxes? Too much work to me. Actually,I was thinking about some sort of video camera... but again - this is Lang design - you need to put cameras in EVERY box! Not economical solution. Sergey


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## Mtedcarr4

You are a frying pan calling the kettle black congratulations you are on Ignore list you troll


Skinner Apiaries said:


> Never say, "if they dont swarm" They will always swarm. Its depressing. Requeening can cut it down, but they still swarm. And if you cant super they swarm even more, wait.. you cant super a top bar hive? Ill let the trolls eat that one up whilst I go work.


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