# Formic pro treatment and bee die off



## adkroot (Jul 1, 2019)

I treated my two hives yesterday with formic pro. I opted for the two week treatment 
which calls for two strips. Both hives were in good shape with a great spring and summer 
so far. I followed directions and removed the entrance reducer for adequate fresh air. 
This morning I discovered that one of the hives has had a bit of a die-off. There's some bees in the grass in front of the hive, and I can see a handful more on the screened bottom. Bees are busy removing the dead. Am I correct in the understanding that the treatment does come with a small mortality rate for the adult bees and I shouldn't be too concerned? Thanks


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

adkroot said:


> I treated my two hives yesterday with formic pro. I opted for the two week treatment
> which calls for two strips. Both hives were in good shape with a great spring and summer
> so far. I followed directions and removed the entrance reducer for adequate fresh air.
> This morning I discovered that one of the hives has had a bit of a die-off. There's some bees in the grass in front of the hive, and I can see a handful more on the screened bottom. Bees are busy removing the dead. Am I correct in the understanding that the treatment does come with a small mortality rate for the adult bees and I shouldn't be too concerned? Thanks


what was the temp? yes some bees and brood die


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## adkroot (Jul 1, 2019)

wildbranch2007 said:


> what was the temp? yes some bees and brood die


High of 77. I was told by a commercial beekeeper this morning that two strips can destroy the hive and onlt to ever use one. Seems hard to believe that the manufacturer would be recommending usage that could kill the hive.


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## Akademee (Apr 5, 2020)

Check to make sure the queen is still there. A bit of die off is normal, but the main concern with the single big dose of formic is that queen loss can occur quite frequently. I still use formic, but only if a hive is going to die without major mite intervention since I can't afford queen death. Everyone else gets softer chemicals.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

i have used MAQS and now for the last 2-3 years formic pro on all of my production colonies at least once/year and i have personally never seen any significant bee or brood mortality nor have i lost any queens. I think its a great product for use when the supers are on.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

adkroot said:


> High of 77. I was told by a commercial beekeeper this morning that two strips can destroy the hive and onlt to ever use one. Seems hard to believe that the manufacturer would be recommending usage that could kill the hive.


I only ever do the one pad at a time, this year we have put them on in the high 80's with no problem, one of my friends dropped two pads on when it was in the low 90's, haven't seen him to see how his hives made out, but his mite count was so high, I'm not sure what the damages would be.


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## jigsaw (Jun 10, 2019)

Also, don't panic if you notice the queen stop laying or slow down. I have seen this in some hives but not all.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I have used Formic pro and experienced minor die-off in hot weather. There was some queen loss but they were queens that would have been toward the end of their average life span. The product gave good mite kill and the colonies affected brood bounced back rapidly.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

jigsaw said:


> Also, don't panic if you notice the queen stop laying or slow down. I have seen this in some hives but not all.


now the 24 dollar question, is it the queen stops laying or the formic kills all the eggs that were laid, and the ones she is laying?


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## jigsaw (Jun 10, 2019)

wildbranch2007 said:


> now the 24 dollar question, is it the queen stops laying or the formic kills all the eggs that were laid, and the ones she is laying?


I would think if it kills eggs, it would kill eggs in all colonies. No?


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> now the 24 dollar question, is it the queen stops laying or the formic kills all the eggs that were laid, and the ones she is laying?


That's a good question. My experience is that the bees are seldom able to raise another queen given the queen failure after formic scenario. Maybe the question tells us why. In the past on this forum has been stated the idea of putting a queen cell in the supers in July. I'd do it after the formic treatment. Of course, one must have queen cells available to do this.

I used to do the 2 pad treatment. More recentlty I have opted for the one pad 2 treatments method as by this time of year the brood numbers is reduced from the spring peak. This also gives me a second chance to see what is happening in the brood nest.


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Formic is temperature sensitive but I notice a big difference in temperature outside and temperature inside the hive. It may be in the 90's outside here but inside the hive it will often get to 110 (I have put a wireless thermometer inside my hives so I know what temp it is in there). This may just be due to the fact that I'm at 5000 ft elevation and my hives are in the sun for a lot of the day. So this got me thinking, should I go by the outside temp to determine the right time to use formic pro or the inside temp. I'm starting to think going by inside temp may be a safer way to use formic. What do you think?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The recommendations for use published by the product manufacturer are based on the temperature outside of the hive.


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

AR Beekeeper said:


> The recommendations for use published by the product manufacturer are based on the temperature outside of the hive.


Yeah, but are they at 5000 ft elevation? It makes a difference because the air is thinner and the sun is more intense. For that matter, is the hive in the sun or the shade? That would also make a big difference, around here anyway. Using the temperature inside the hive would eliminate a lot of variables and it is concerning how many people actually have problems with this treatment.


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## sharonwestfall4 (5 mo ago)

I just completed treating two colonies with 2 large double brood boxes and two medium supers on both. Day 15 today I noticed the egg laying has slowed much more in the hive that had about two cups of dead bees outside the front entrance on day two of treatment. That colony doesn't appear to be queen right. Prior to treatment she had 4 full frames of brood with great pattern, She is only one year old, her mother is laying more eggs and has more brood in my other colony I treated. The mite loads were high and I have to wait until next week to get accurate numbers per cup ideally under 6 mites, but I did check her moms colony and the count was 7 per cup. I have what is claimed to be a less harsh treatment, Api Life Var and thinking of starting the three weeks of treatments next week if my numbers are still to high, rather than using Formic Pro again, any thoughts?


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## Norcal Mtns (Mar 28, 2021)

Normally the mite load is greatly reduced by Formic Pro. If another treatment is necessary, you might look at Scientificbeekeeping.com and the Extended Oxalic Acid Swedish pads. OA crystals and food grade glycerin.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

sharonwestfall4 said:


> I just completed treating two colonies with 2 large double brood boxes and two medium supers on both. Day 15 today I noticed the egg laying has slowed much more in the hive that had about two cups of dead bees outside the front entrance on day two of treatment. That colony doesn't appear to be queen right. Prior to treatment she had 4 full frames of brood with great pattern,


Not sure what you did, but I have learned to do repeat formic treatments with 1 strip at a time as the 2 at once have often ruined the queen, in my experience. Next treatment 10 to 14 days, and continue if necessary. Formic knocks the mites down, whereas oxalic tends to maintain the status quo, meaning slow the growth of the varroa population.


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## Norcal Mtns (Mar 28, 2021)

The extended release method will reduce the might count.
Here is the link Instructions for extended-release oxalic acid - Scientific Beekeeping

From his website:
“Extended-Release Oxalic Acid For Varroa Management
This method of application of oxalic acid is not yet approved by the EPA. However, EPA does not require an Experimental Use Permit for a limited number of hives. Check with your State Lead Agency.”

In California I think it is allowed in apiaries with either 5 or 10 or less hives.


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