# Bees up and left a hive full of honey



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Not CCD, as the symptoms are a small patch of brood and bees with queen are left in the hive.

I would transfer the frames of stores to the remaining hive, it will give them some stores to work from in building up spring populations.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

I have seen the same thing. I have 2 nucs sitting next to each other. In December both were strong. Now one is good and the other is empty with 5 frames of capped honey. When I looked last weekend there was a patch of capped brood and not a single bee in the hive. Looked like someone hit it with a bee vac. Have 3 full size hives and one of those did the same thing. Mabye not CCD but what would make a hive abscond on a mild day in the middle of winter? All hives were treated exactly the same and come from local swarms.


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## johnthefarmer (Mar 1, 2013)

LaReine said:


> 2 questions: 1. Is this CCD? 2. Is it safe to transfer a comb or 2 of honey to the live hive or could there be some disease vector in the honey?


Yes, it is CCD if most of the bees disappeared suddenly.Sometimes the queen is still there, sometimes not.Don't feed the rest of the honey to other bees, as it might still have neonicotinoids in it, which caused the problem in the first place.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

johnthefarmer said:


> Yes, it is CCD if most of the bees disappeared suddenly.


Note that *every *single *post *to Beesource made by _johnthefarmer _is about CCD (or neonics). Is that the sign of a one-track mind, or what?


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

You already gave honey from the dead hive last fall and the second hive is still doing well so I don't think you should worry about transferring honey now.


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## BeeManiac (Feb 26, 2012)

If you had two hives sitting right next to one another they both fed on the same flowers. It cant be ccd. Maybe it had a heavy mite load in the fall and they absconded?


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## LaReine (Feb 9, 2012)

Thank you for the replies. It certainly would be very convenient to be able to just drop a comb full of honey into the hive, not to mention being more nutritious than sugar. So there is a strong temptation to think of reasons to go ahead and do this, despite the fact that the safest course would be to not do it. JD makes a good case that since I fed honey from the dead hive last fall and the bees are doing well, then it should be okay, especially since it is unlikely that they contracted something fatal after autumn. BeeManiac makes good sense and I have been thinking the same thing, since the hives both contained local wild type bees and foraged in the same area. Regarding neonicotinoids, there are no commercial farms anywhere near me.

And I have some reason to doubt this is really CCD. This was not a case of some or most of the bees leaving--this is a case of ALL the bees leaving. There is essentially no capped brood (I could count the caps on my fingers and toes). It really looks like the queen just said, "let's get outta here" and they absconded. There are differences in the hives, too--the empty hive got less solar warming during the winter, and it had a side entrance while the surviving hive had an end entrance. Michael Bush has this to say about side entrances: 

"The main reason for a front entrance is that it prevents the cluster from being in the center with honey on both sides of it, which is a bad configuration going into winter. A hive in a cold climate will likely work it's way to one end, leaving stores at the other end and if a warm snap doesn't allow them to relocate to the end with stores, they will starve there."

So perhaps they were just too cold and starved. 

I read that hives with CCD will not be robbed. I will do an experiment and open it up tomorrow during the warm part of the day and see if robbing occurs.

Bees sure are interesting!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

johnthefarmer said:


> Yes, it is CCD if most of the bees disappeared suddenly.Sometimes the queen is still there, sometimes not.Don't feed the rest of the honey to other bees, as it might still have neonicotinoids in it, which caused the problem in the first place.


It's a long ways from Orkney, Scotland to Grand Junction, Colorado one of the most stunningly beautiful places in the USA. 
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=ipad&va=grand+junction+colorado
Your diagnosis from afar is without any basis whatsoever and does nothing more than to confuse a person who came here with a legitimate question and concern. As I said before to you, it would be nice if you would actually enter a beekeeping discussion on here. What you and Stromnessbee are currently doing here is little more than trolling and adds nothing to the discussion on this forum.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

LaReine said:


> I read that hives with CCD will not be robbed. I will do an experiment and open it up tomorrow during the warm part of the day and see if robbing occurs.
> 
> Bees sure are interesting!


I wouldn't be too hasty in drawing much of a conclusion initially from a lack of robbing as that has a lot to do with how many hives are nearby and whether there is anything else for the bees to work on nearby. It's not unusual to see bees ignore some honey in a hive until it has been opened and exposed. However once they get the scent, look out.


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## LaReine (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks for the advice, Jim, and also thanks for the praise for our hometown. BTW, my spouse has been to Orkney and says it's not too shabby either.


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## hlhart2014 (Jun 11, 2012)

So when is the last time you noticed they were in the hive? Just curious.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

One oldtime way to see if there is a flow on or not in your area, is to hang a honey filled comb from a hive from a tree branch and keep watch on it. If bees rob it out, then you are not having a nectar flow. If the bees ignore it, then you are in a good nectar flow. Setting out your frames for the bees to rob will only tell if you are in a nectar flow or not. It won't tell anything about CCD.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Sounds to me like the now vacant hive, lost their queen (or had a failing queen) in late Summer/early Autumn, the beekeeper didn't notice (though it seems you did, since you mentioned they had more honey than brood) and their wasn't sufficient brood to produce a population of Winter bees, and the remaining Summer bees dwindled away during the Winter.

Instead of just giving some of the one hives honey to the more populous one (I count brood as bee bodies, too), you could have also given the less broody hive some of the other hives brood, or better yet, requeened them.


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## johnthefarmer (Mar 1, 2013)

RayMarler said:


> One oldtime way to see if there is a flow on or not in your area, is to hang a honey filled comb from a hive from a tree branch and keep watch on it. If bees rob it out, then you are not having a nectar flow. If the bees ignore it, then you are in a good nectar flow. Setting out your frames for the bees to rob will only tell if you are in a nectar flow or not. It won't tell anything about CCD.


This is not correct.Even if there is a heavy nectar flow the bees will still collect honey if it's easy to get. After all it's already converted to winter food!
If the hive doesn't get robbed for a prolonged period of time it is a very strong indication for CCD and neonic contamination.
Check your area for orchards, golf courses and parks, where neonic lawn treatments and drenches might have been used. 
If only one of your colonies is affected it was most likely the strongest one, which was bound to forage further afield, so the neonic source is probably a few miles away.
Just because others do not want to recognize the neonic problem it doesn't mean that it isn't the biggest reason for colony losses just now.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

John says... This is not correct.Even if there is a heavy nectar flow the bees will still collect honey if it's easy to get. After all it's already converted to winter food!

So sorry to see you making such foolish statements, it is now oh-so obvious that you are not an experienced beekeeper in any way. I must say that now you have actually inserted both your feet into your mouth. That's good, maybe you'll now learn to keep that mouth shut until you actually have something worthwhile to say and contribute to future discussions here in the forums.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

jim lyon said:


> It's a long ways from Orkney, Scotland to Grand Junction, Colorado one of the most stunningly beautiful places in the USA.


Grand Junction, corn as far as the eye can see! A neonic paradise!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I would say, don't breed from the queen that didn't make it. Breed from the other one instead.

Deknow


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Here is another possibility. This happened to us last year. We had two roughly equal strength nucs that were moved next to each other for wintering. Most of the bees from one nuc drifted into the other nuc. This created a weak nuc and a very strong nuc. The queen stayed in the weak nuc with a small population of bees. She over wintered and rebuilt her poppulation the next year. In the case of the TBHs could the one have lost its queen and the bees drifted to the queen rignt colony.
Dave


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

What a great way to make someone new feel welcomed to the forum .
Geuss time will tell if JOHNTHEFARMER has anything to add to BEESOURCE.
I know i have had hives take syrup when there was a flow and i have had bees clean up old honey frames when there was a flow . Just saying.
But what do i know i'm only a 4 year beek like JOHN THE FARMER.Peace.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Barry said:


> Grand Junction, corn as far as the eye can see! A neonic paradise!


Last spring [towards the end of April] I took 6-7 of my strongest colonies to my brother's place about 70 miles west, to place on mesquite just starting full bloom. Most of the non cultivated land is in mesquites, but also all around was corn about 18" tall for the cultivated areas. These colonies were 3 mediums and packed and boiling with bees. I pulled the screens off, added another super, and watched them about an hour and half as they covered up the mesquite blosoms around me. I went back the next weekend to find all the populations down to what you would expect in a nuke. Fresh honey in small amounts in the frames but nothing sealed. I loaded them up the next day and brought them home and they were much lighter than when I took them. 

Few months later I took 16 strong colonies with lupster's bees to west Texas to put on cotton. About month and half later, went to pick them up, and had 3 colonies with no sign of bees and all the rest were weak. I might have averged 20# of honey per colony. 4 more died before I got them ready for winter and I went into winter with 9 and came out with 9, though 1 was queenless. I am through with the migratory beekeeping.

Kindest Regards
Danny


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Danny -

Cotton has always been reported as a tough crop on bees. I won't pass judgment on that. The OP is from Grand Junction, CO, and last time I looked, it's a vegetable and fruit growing area.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

GLOCK said:


> What a great way to make someone new feel welcomed to the forum .
> Geuss time will tell if JOHNTHEFARMER has anything to add to BEESOURCE.
> I know i have had hives take syrup when there was a flow and i have had bees clean up old honey frames when there was a flow . Just saying.
> But what do i know i'm only a 4 year beek like JOHN THE FARMER.Peace.


My Heartfelt Apology to JohnTheFarmer.
All I can say is it must have been a bad cup of coffee, and I've just gotten upset from the postings lately blaming all beehive losses on CCD and Neonics. I had no reason to lash out so and I'm sorry.

But, I've had strong flows where chunks of dripping honey was laying out with no bees paying attention to it, the ants seemed more interested. This was in a strong late spring flow. On the other hand, I've had days when bees would not leave my glass of Pepsi alone as I ventured out to watch them flying. That was at late summer dearth. Anything sweet out at that time was investigated by the bees, and a frame of honey was robbed out with a frenzy. My good friend in beekeeping used to always have a frame of honey hanging on his porch, he used it to monitor nectar flows at his yard. So it's been my observations that setting honey frames out to see if they get robbed back or not, is not a valid test to see if your hive has been vacated because of CCD or Neonic contamination.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

it's hard to tell what happened with out inspecting the hive.id be happy to help u out as i go to grand junction frequently


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## LaReine (Feb 9, 2012)

I would like to thank JohnTheFarmer for responding to my initial question and to my subsequent comment. I appreciate his concern for the well-being of my bees and would tend to agree with his last statement about bees using honey when it's easy to get and already converted to food. My understanding is that bees will choose the highest quality food source they can find--that is why they will forage on a particular flower to the exclusion of others with nectar of lower sugar concentration. Honey would have a much higher sugar content that any nectar, and if a honey comb were 10 feet away why would bees fly a mile to forage on nectar with only 10-20% sugar content? Moreover, there is a golf course very close to my home and several small home orchards. Agriculturalists here are mostly of the mentality, "better living through chemicals" so I would not discount the possibility of pesticide toxicity as John suggests. In fact I may contact the golf course and ask them what they are spraying. BTW, beekeepers behaving like angry bees is not very attractive to anyone, especially new beekeepers like myself and new visitors to the forum. I hope our colleagues in the UK won't think all Americans are rude.


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## LaReine (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks. I sent you a PM.



franktrujillo said:


> it's hard to tell what happened with out inspecting the hive.id be happy to help u out as i go to grand junction frequently


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

I had an odd abscond last fall as well. If the bees are totally gone, AND you've been monitoring them so you know it's not just a CCD that deaded-out, they absconded which is different than CCD. Not to troll, but there are a lot of colony losses that are mis-attributed to CCD. Remember there are lots of old-fashioned ways a colony can die that are still the major threats!

If it were my colony, I'd re-use the honey and equipment. And our winter hasn't seemed very bad over on this side of the divide, just more drought and too-high temps. Another colony-killer , I'll take a cold winter anytime.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

LaReine,
I'm sorry for being the angry bee and messing up your thread here, I'm not usually that way and have no excuse. 

But I thought i would try to answer a question you had ... " Honey would have a much higher sugar content that any nectar, and if a honey comb were 10 feet away why would bees fly a mile to forage on nectar with only 10-20% sugar content?"

The bees would fly that mile because they consume nectar and feed nectar to the brood. They would need water for dilution to use the honey, so would make the trip to get nectar when it's available. That's why when a heavy flow is on they will not rob out frames set outside, especially not like they will when there is not enough nectar flow to feed the brood in the hive.

I'm sorry I am an angry bee and am just trying to focus on sharing info on the bees in a hive, I hope this helps in your adventure with beekeeping.


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## Eyeshooter (Mar 8, 2008)

Ray, 
You are one of the folks whose posts I always read. I find you to be knowledgeable, sensible and courteous. We all have a bad moment. I look forward to learning more from you and hearing more from JohntheFarmer.

Cheers,

John


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

I would say Joseph hit the nail on the head, your hive went queenless.:applause:.....so I would follow dekno's advice, he has it figured out, don't breed from the dead queen.:scratch:

Jim


Joseph Clemens said:


> Sounds to me like the now vacant hive, lost their queen (or had a failing queen) in late Summer/early Autumn, the beekeeper didn't notice (though it seems you did, since you mentioned they had more honey than brood) and their wasn't sufficient brood to produce a population of Winter bees, and the remaining Summer bees dwindled away during the Winter.
> 
> Instead of just giving some of the one hives honey to the more populous one (I count brood as bee bodies, too), you could have also given the less broody hive some of the other hives brood, or better yet, requeened them.





deknow said:


> I would say, don't breed from the queen that didn't make it. Breed from the other one instead.
> 
> Deknow


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## LaReine (Feb 9, 2012)

Thank you, Ray, and others for your knowledgeable comments. Yes, I see why having to dilute the honey to feed it to brood changes the equation:

"The bees would fly that mile because they consume nectar and feed nectar to the brood. They would need water for dilution to use the honey, so would make the trip to get nectar when it's available. "

Also I am starting to agree with those who suggest the hive failed because it went queenless in late summer/early fall and I was not experienced enough to notice (was the fact that they were making more honey than brood a sign of a weak queen?). There is so much to learn about these fascinating insects. I'm looking forward to keeping the healthy hive healthy, and starting over on the empty hive, with some improvements.

Paul


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes, one storing more honey than the other can be a sign of a failing queen, but can be for other reasons as well. 

If a queen is failing when there is still strength of numbers in the hive (so this would be as she first starts slowing down or failing) then there are still great numbers of foragers bringing in nectar. The nectar gets stored and used for brood rearing first. If the brooding of the queen is slowing down, then more nectar is stored above and dried into honey. So the hive with failing or slowing queen will have more honey stored than a hive with a stong actively laying queen would have. This happens more in the late summer into fall, that I've noticed in my bee yards over time. A thing to check for was to compare the size of the actual brood between the two hives, it is my guess that the one with more honey had a smaller brood area. 

Also, as a hive fails, the healthy bees will abandon it slowly over time, and will join into a stronger hive close by. If the queen finally shuts down, the remaining small patch of brood would emerge and abandon the hive, with or without the queen.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

johnthefarmer said:


> Yes, it is CCD if most of the bees disappeared suddenly.Sometimes the queen is still there, sometimes not.Don't feed the rest of the honey to other bees, as it might still have neonicotinoids in it, which caused the problem in the first place.


These symptoms describe a classic hive crash from a high varroa population and it's vectored diseases (viruses). We have no neonics used within 5 miles of our yards and those of many I know, and this is what happens to our hives with high varroa infestations, and no neonic exposure.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Queenless then dwindled away???? In mid winter??? I would have suspected a small frozen cluster left at least??? (never had one with no bees left) Its my understanding that is the normal situation of what most are actually calling CCD? most if not all bees just flat missing. 

Also never heard before that bees were smart enough to avoid honey from CCD or "contaminated honey" if they were that smart why did the collect it in the first place??
Sorry lariene, no answers for you, but more questions brought out by what seems to be a lot of contradiction??


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