# Building frames



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I exclusively use Lewis frames. Best frames on the market. I typically set up the work shop with a couple 15 frame jigs ready to go at anytime so that I can drop a couple guys in there to help make use of dead time throughout the season. 
We glue the frames, two 18guage 1 1/2" staples down the top bar and one 3/8 wide 1 1/4" staple up to straddle the grove on the bottom bar. We quit stapling in from the side as it took too much time and because it seemed to cause more trouble than good. A couple guys will make 1000 per day depending on how motivated they are lol. 
We use the heavy plastic foundation from MannLake which pays for itself in the long run... By not having to pick up blown frames off the cement pad when pallets get dropped....and pallets do get dropped...
We will have put roughly 75000 frames through my 60 frame Cowen this year and my broke frame pile will be about 100 frames, mostly due to old frames or plastic frames binding. 

Just a glimps, hope it helps


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

I don't normally have empathy but man I feel their pain. poor guys.
that's actually a great way to let the glue dry without having to pry the frames apart. I think I might try that mess on the floor and see if it works better then stacking which I normally do


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

They get stacked in 10's after the foundation is snapped in, and yes, piled as such to allow the glue to dry.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

Wow! Great photo. So you staple 4 times into the top bar with two staples on each end?
I agree the staple into the side through the end bar and into the top bar causes problems but it seems to make it almost impossible to get the top bar to come off so I've always thought it worth the trouble of the staple going into the space where the foundation (or wedge I suppose) would go. Seeing as you have good luck doing it this way I think I'll do the same next time.
What plastic foundation do you use?
Is this all for next season? I don't think I've ever thought about doing this ahead of time. I always wait until it is an emergency LOL.
I get frames from ML and they are very stout and cheaper price than Lewis. Not sayin this to mean you are making a mistake-just wondering if I am making one .


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

2 staples down , one up, glue

Just one Beekeepers opinion 👍


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## LeifLiberty (Sep 23, 2014)

I only add staples/brads to keep the frames clamped in place while the glue hardens. Seems like staples might actually weaken the connection if over-used.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I disagree


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If they stand all day long then at least give them a high chair to sit on to
relief their tired legs.
This change of position will sure motivate them to put out more. After gluing and stabling stack
them nice and neat inside the box to dry. This way they don't have to repeat the process
of picking up the disorganized pile afterward. Productivity and efficiency will be increased too. My 2 cent!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

How's that, snapped and stacked


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> We glue the frames, two 18guage 1 1/2" staples down the top bar and one 3/8 wide 1 1/4" staple up to straddle the grove on the bottom bar. We quit stapling in from the side as it took too much time and because it seemed to cause more trouble than good. A couple guys will make 1000 per day depending on how motivated they are lol.
> We use the heavy plastic foundation from MannLake which pays for itself in the long run... By not having to pick up blown frames off the cement pad when pallets get dropped....and pallets do get dropped...
> We will have put roughly 75000 frames through my 60 frame Cowen this year and my broke frame pile will be about 100 frames, mostly due to old frames or plastic frames binding.
> 
> Just a glimps, hope it helps


Couldn't agree more, we use exactly the same stapling plan and our broken frame pile at the end of the season speaks volumes about what works and dosent work though we do use glue as well. The rare failure is usually a poor bottom bar joint, the horizontal topbar staple from the side is redundancy on a joint that really shouldn't fail, besides, it dosent do near as much good as many think because there just isn't a lot of wood to go into.


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## LeifLiberty (Sep 23, 2014)

When you have failures, what is failing? Is the glue join separating or is the wood fracturing?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

LeifLiberty said:


> When you have failures, what is failing? Is the glue join separating or is the wood fracturing?


You don't have a lot of wood to work with on that joint. Typically when there is a failure it's because the staple damaged the bottom bar.


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## LeifLiberty (Sep 23, 2014)

Anybody have a trick to apply glue to many frames? Like a special bottle, a paint brush, sponge, some kind of glue gun, etc? 
I use strong PVA wood glue. Is this what you use?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

We use simply a small glue bottle, and swiftly dab a bit of glue on the grove sides. Gluing the sides is the secret to a solid hold. Gluing the bottom of the grove doesn't work as well holding to the wood grain.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jim lyon said:


> You don't have a lot of wood to work with on that joint. Typically when there is a failure it's because the staple damaged the bottom bar.


That's why I like that wider staple underneath, straddling the grove helps keep the wood intact. Uptop I find the narrow crowns penetrate and hold better. I have yet to have one of my double narrow crowns pull off the top bar as I had with the one wider staple


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Ian said:


> That's why I like that wider staple underneath, straddling the grove helps keep the wood intact. Uptop I find the narrow crowns penetrate and hold better. I have yet to have one of my double narrow crowns pull off the top bar as I had with the one wider staple


I wished the wider crown staplers were more common and less pricey. I use the two narrow crown staples for top bars, but as mentioned, they are less than ideal for the bottoms.


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## LeifLiberty (Sep 23, 2014)

Here is a frame turned up-side-down. I have a tiny brad shot into each side to hold the frame in place while the glue hardens.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I find most frames fall apart (aside from uncapper damages) during those first couple years of drawing out the wax. When the bees draw and fill the frames out, lot of the time the webbing does not fill out to the end bars, leaving all that weight pressure on the joints. Soon as that frame is a few times through the hives, wax binds to the sides, too and bottom to the point where when trying to pull the foundation out of broken frames is nearly impossible without damaging comb. 
Just gotta get those fresh frames a couple years in 👍

We are so spoiled with our wood plastic dual, we are terribly rough with our new frames as compared to the beekeeper in the area here before me


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> That's why I like that wider staple underneath, straddling the grove helps keep the wood intact. Uptop I find the narrow crowns penetrate and hold better. I have yet to have one of my double narrow crowns pull off the top bar as I had with the one wider staple


Agree X 2. Yes, it's too bad those 3/8" crown staplers are so pricey, hard to justify the cost if you don't do many frames.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Got my factory reconditioned Senco SLS25XP-M 820107N for $139 free shipping from CPO. Like brand new. Out of stock currently. Much better than narrow crown staples for frame assembly.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

LeifLiberty said:


> Anybody have a trick to apply glue to many frames? Like a special bottle, a paint brush, sponge, some kind of glue gun, etc?
> I use strong PVA wood glue. Is this what you use?


I am a very small keeper with only 40 or so hives. Looking at these photos makes me wish I had gotten serious earlier.
Anyway I use a jig that holds 30 frames which I made this year. For glueing I also concentrate on getting the sides of the "female" joints at the top and bottoms of the side bars. I use a regular TBIII bottle which I refill and I just get it going with a decent drip and sweep down the frames depositing a dab on all the sides in one direction and reverse to dab glue on the opposite side of the same groove. I hold the bottle in my right hand and steady it with my left hand and I also use my left hand to run up against the side bars as I am sweeping down the side bars so the bottle is always over the side bars and it doesn't wander. I originally went right left right left but it seems much faster going in one direction and then back.
That's just one wanna be commercial beehaver way to go. 
I also looked into trying to find a bottle specific for the frames and found I was spending too much time trying to find something to save time.
I also think it is true that glue applied to the end grain is not effective. I put some one the end grain but it is because it runs down. Given the opportunity I would gladly omit end grain glue because I feel it's a waste. I did some research about this as well and everything I read pointed to end grain gluing as being almost completely ineffective.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>and found I was spending too much time trying to find something to save time.<<

Here is my quote for the day! :thumbsup:


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## LeifLiberty (Sep 23, 2014)

challenger said:


> I am a very small keeper with only 40 or so hives. Looking at these photos makes me wish I had gotten serious earlier.
> Anyway I use a jig that holds 30 frames which I made this year. For glueing I also concentrate on getting the sides of the "female" joints at the top and bottoms of the side bars. I use a regular TBIII bottle which I refill and I just get it going with a decent drip and sweep down the frames depositing a dab on all the sides in one direction and reverse to dab glue on the opposite side of the same groove. I hold the bottle in my right hand and steady it with my left hand and I also use my left hand to run up against the side bars as I am sweeping down the side bars so the bottle is always over the side bars and it doesn't wander. I originally went right left right left but it seems much faster going in one direction and then back.
> That's just one wanna be commercial beehaver way to go.
> I also looked into trying to find a bottle specific for the frames and found I was spending too much time trying to find something to save time.
> I also think it is true that glue applied to the end grain is not effective. I put some one the end grain but it is because it runs down. Given the opportunity I would gladly omit end grain glue because I feel it's a waste. I did some research about this as well and everything I read pointed to end grain gluing as being almost completely ineffective.


Great stuff!

I think for the end grains it is recommended to apply sizing, but it sounds like a large extra step. Described here http://www.titebond.com/application_tips.aspx


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

While talking about frames with plastic foundation, is there an easy way of cleaning the plastic foundation so that they may be re waxed. I would prefer leaving the plastic in the frame if possible.
Johno


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

johno said:


> While talking about frames with plastic foundation, is there an easy way of cleaning the plastic foundation so that they may be re waxed. I would prefer leaving the plastic in the frame if possible.
> Johno


Yes. Use a turkey fryer with hot water in it. Dunk the frame long enough for the wax to soften up then hit it with a stiff brush. Might take some repetitions but you get to a point where you say "just do it" and put the wax on then slap them onto hives. Be careful. You can warp the foundations. You'll learn by ruining a few. Them cacoons make it a challenge too. 
My start into bees was basically me cleaning up someone else's 20+ deadouts. Took me a while but got me the toe-hold I needed to start keeping LOTS of bees. Starting out with a mess for sure motivated me to try like heck to avoid that mess again. It's a ton of work cleaning up mothed up deadouts but you can do it.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

johno said:


> While talking about frames with plastic foundation, is there an easy way of cleaning the plastic foundation so that they may be re waxed. I would prefer leaving the plastic in the frame if possible.
> Johno


you say nothing about their condition, are they infected with wax moths? if they have comb attached, the fastest would be to scrape the old off, and use a hair dryer to melt what's left on the foundation.no need to coat them, this is what we did back in the 80's. easy and fast. just don't dip wood frames in water.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Them frames are all packaged up nicely in stacks of ten pieces. Mann Lake ones are anyway. 

Focus on them stacks of ends. They are ten to a stack. That's five frames worth and fits your hand well.
Pick up the stack of ends, hold them really tight, then squirt your glue on the tops, then use a throwaway brush to spread the glue. http://www.rockler.com/disposable-g...cQ8OS18nAz2ytMFvXEa4gbTiLES2lXr1GQaArY08P8HAQ
Flip and do the bottom the same way. If you have 5 top bars on a table you can start placing the glued sides and then top with the bottoms. 
Staple the bottoms. Flip and staple the tops. Next use the square and square the frame up and then do another. 

Can assemble frames like described very very quickly and there's no need for a jig. Tried a jig and it slowed me down. 
Lets try and keep this on topic now.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm glad to see I'm not the only guy that just tosses my frames in a pile. And I'm going to change my stapling based on Ian and Jim Lyon's recommendations. I've often wondered how that staple really does jack squat. Just one of those things people repeat, I guess.

Thanks for the post, Ian!


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I have some frames from some robbed out nucs, with a little moth damage, but if I scrape all the old brood comb off I still have some black stuff in the bottom of the cells which probably will not come out with a heat gun. I would like to have them clean before re coating with wax. My thoughts were to try a steamer on the plastic then a hard brush, any thoughts on that.
Johno


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

johno said:


> I have some frames from some robbed out nucs, with a little moth damage, but if I scrape all the old brood comb off I still have some black stuff in the bottom of the cells which probably will not come out with a heat gun. I would like to have them clean before re coating with wax. My thoughts were to try a steamer on the plastic then a hard brush, any thoughts on that.
> Johno


Why scrape them? Let the bees fix them.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think you will find that heat distorts the plastic. It sure makes the one piece plastic frame/foundation go wonky. Plastic foundation panels in wooden frame may not be so peevish though.

My son uses pressure washer to rehabilitate old plastic but I think that is only when he is in a pinch for equipment otherwise it gets chucked. Depends on what value you put on your time, I guess.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

crofter said:


> I think you will find that heat distorts the plastic. It sure makes the one piece plastic frame/foundation go wonky. Plastic foundation panels in wooden frame may not be so peevish though.
> 
> My son uses pressure washer to rehabilitate old plastic but I think that is only when he is in a pinch for equipment otherwise it gets chucked. Depends on what value you put on your time, I guess.


Yes, the time it takes to get used equipment reusable is another topic that gets shaken around. I try and reuse frames of almost any serviceable condition. It takes time to clean them and it is a real PIA BUT it means there is one less frame that has to be built and purchased so???? The price of a frame plus the time to build it makes cleaning and reusing a frame something I feel makes sense. That's just me though and I know a commercial operation wouldn't get ahead by trying to reuse frames that are in tough shape.

I'd love to know what the popular plastic foundation is???


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## LeifLiberty (Sep 23, 2014)

challenger said:


> I'd love to know what the popular plastic foundation is???


I really like black Rite Cell. It is robust, with deep cells, and the black makes it easier for me to quickly see eggs, larva, etc.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

LeifLiberty said:


> I really like black Rite Cell. It is robust, with deep cells, and the black makes it easier for me to quickly see eggs, larva, etc.


:thumbsup:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> Why scrape them? Let the bees fix them.


"...old brood comb...."

These old brood comb are brown to black. Too old but to turn them into the
pollen/bee bread frames for my pollen frame raised queen cells method.
I once tested a piece of the black plastic comb exposed to the outside environment.
After 1 summer out there in the shade on the back of the bee hive the black wax got
shrunk down enough to knock them out of the cells. You still need a small wire brush to
scrape some off. Not sure if this is the right application for your many frames.


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## chorrylan (Feb 20, 2016)

johno said:


> is there an easy way of cleaning the plastic foundation so that they may be re waxed.


The best I've seen is this industrial-scale beast: https://youtu.be/B0DQfFgqVVk
That belongs to/designed-by Tony, one of the commercial beekeepers on http://www.nzbees.net/media/beehive-frame-cleaning-youtube.883/


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

jwcarlson said:


> And I'm going to change my stapling based on Ian and Jim Lyon's recommendations.


Me too. I started doing it because I had a bunch of Mann Lake preassembled frames started failing with the top bar pulling off during inspections. So, all the frames I've built since that experience got the side nail put in, however, every time I shot that nail I wondered how effective it really was. Lots of people suggest it, but now I know its not nearly as effective as some suggest. 

Great thread!


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## GoodyFarms (Jul 10, 2016)

challenger said:


> I'd love to know what the popular plastic foundation is???


Double waxed from acorn!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

GoodyFarms said:


> Double waxed from acorn!


Abso-friggin-lutely.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ian said:


> We glue the frames, two 18guage 1 1/2" staples down the top bar and one 3/8 wide 1 1/4" staple up to straddle the grove on the bottom bar.


The glue is critical. Picked up some secondhand supers from a beekeeper that didn't glue all of his frames, and my uncapper has been sorting out the ones that aren't well attached all extracting season.


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