# % successful intro of caged queens en mass



## kiwiBee (Jul 23, 2009)

Hoping a few of you busy guys can tell me what sort of percentages you expect for caged queen acceptance into reasonably strong hives around 3 weeks after install?

Are there any differences between installing in spring or autumn?

Do you have any particular method that you like most?

Any feed back would be great but if you are pushed for time just a percentage would be great.

Ta Much

kiwi


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

when i introduce a mated queen in a nuc with a three frame split after the first week i should have no problem getting a 95% take. (last spring at this time i had a 98% take after 200 nucs) this spring it is looking like about 97% probably due to the super cold weather we are having.
After three weeks i guess i couldnt tell you for sure but i would say no less than 90%. i just introduce them the normal way with the candy tube, i dont put a hole in it like some i would rather have them work at it a little longer.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Out of 200 this year I had three that didn't take and these were self queened as they built their own queen cells. (good bees) So what's that....right at 1.5%. Not bad. I can give you a larger sample off the 1400 we hived but won't know till later as it's still ongoing.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

This spring I had 97% take on splits(deep hive bodies) that had 3 frames full of brood and 7 frame avg of bees. That was checking them after 2 wks. Before they could have produced their own queen yet long enough to check the brood pattern of the new queen. They were queenless for 15 hrs before installing the queens.


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## kiwiBee (Jul 23, 2009)

All three of you are havng really good takes.
I dont know why we are having so much trouble with ours we are probably losing up to 30% the last couple of years. Seems they make a start then next time you go back in she's gone.
Queens are picked from mating nucs after we have sealed brood so about 4 weeks in a mating picked one day and installed the next. 
It's driving me nuts and setting the hives back as well.
Anyone have any idea what might be going on?

I love Autumn gives me all the time in the world to sit here and ask a heap of questions while you guys are flat out!

kiwi


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## trulli1 (May 9, 2010)

Not worth sticking a queen excluder between brood chamber and floor for a couple weeks?


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## kiwiBee (Jul 23, 2009)

trulli1 said:


> Not worth sticking a queen excluder between brood chamber and floor for a couple weeks?


Hi Trulli.
No I dont think so they aren't swarming. 
She's either up and died or they have knocked her off.

kiwi


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I wouldn't call mine en masse, but I installed 50 early season queens into nucs and lost about 20%. About the same as in the past. If I get queens about a month later, the 'take' is substantially better. I do a manual release. After three or four days I release the queen onto a frame with plenty of bees. I watch for a minute or so and if they don't attack her, I put it all back together. The most common failure is a nearly immediate supercedure. I'll get a couple that just 'disappear'. One or two drone or non layers. Again, I know 50 hardly qualifies as en masse and these are first of the season queens but the numbers have been pretty much the same for the past two years.


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## kiwiBee (Jul 23, 2009)

50 gives me a reasonable number to compare with.
seems to be our early queens are the ones that have the worst success as well. 
I dont know why that would be do you have any ideas at your end?
We have plenty of drones early so I'm thinking thats not the problem. It could be that the weather's not so settled at that time and maybe she dosn't mate with as many drones? 
could be a number of reasons I quess but frustrates me when I hear figures of 95% being had by some.

kiwi


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I always figured it was either not enough drones, quality of early drones or not enough good mating weather. But it's all a guess. If I get those queens a month later..it makes a world of difference. On the other hand those nucs that are successfully started a month earlier will usually produce a significant surplus, while the later ones mostly don't. It's a balancing act. I continue to take my 20% losses.....
Although those 20% aren't entirely lost. I usually add a frame of eggs or a swarm cell and they recover...but just become later nucs.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

use a spritzer with a water sugar water mix and Honey B Healthy. I have great sucess with this. Spritz the bees, no smoke, spritz the queen. Keeps the bees calm while working without smoke, and masks the smell of the queen.
I still wait a few days before introducing her. Shes a costly insect you know!


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## pahvantpiper (Apr 25, 2006)

Doesn't seem to matter what I do. Honey-b-healthy, big nucs small nucs, early nucs, late nucs, or even different queens. I settle in around an 89% take after a couple weeks. Packages on the other hand is a different story - I lose at least 20% every time - I hate packages.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Around 95 percent acceptance on packages sounds right, I can report back with precise numbers in a week. Been that way for years. Always direct release IF bees have been in package long enough.

Roland


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

I installed 101 packages that I got from John and Sheri on April 3(or around there). Only 1 package didn't take the queen but they took the next 1 I gave them. I inspected them all 4 wks after installatioin and all queens are laying great with lots of brood and a great pattern. I even made nucs w/ 2 frames brood out of the really strong ones and they were still a single full of bees and 5 frames of brood or more. Last week from 5 of them I took the queens with 3 frames of brood and 2 frames syrup and pollen. 5 hrs later I gave them original hives another queen. Checked them today and they all have laying queens again.


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## kiwiBee (Jul 23, 2009)

so what am I doing wrong! :scratch:

kiwi


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Kiwi

I'm really surprised your not getting close to 100% success if your going straight from mating nucs to hives. Those queens should be pumping out a ton of pheromones and attracting bees.

In spring, especially during willow and dandelion flows, I would expect at least 95% acceptance. I usually make a split and immediately install a queen cage with a hole made in the candy.

Do you find you have better acceptance at certain times of the year?


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Make sure there are plenty of young bees, open brood, incoming nectar helps alot and if you don't have a flow feed. Don't let the splits sit queenless to long. After they start to make emergency cells they will reject and kill the new queen more. I use to make my splits as I could over a weeks time so I could have them all ready for queens when they arrived. I started noticing that the longer the splits sat the more my % of take would go down. Now I make the splits above excluders so they feel they are queen right until I take them off. I take the splits off in the evening and give them new queens the next day. I only leave about 3/8" of soft candy with a hole pierced through the candy with a small knife blade. I don't use anything to cover up the queens scent and I don't spray the bees with anything other than some smoke to keep them calm. I always put the queen cage in open brood so she will be surrounded by nurse bees.

I hope this helps you.


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## kiwiBee (Jul 23, 2009)

Seems we do pretty much exactly the same when introducing the queen, she's picked from a nuc she's been in the nuc 4 weeks and has sealed brood. Put in queen cage with between 8-10 attendants we take them out to the yards and install the queens as we make up the splits.
The only difference might be that we install as we go not leaving them queenless for any period?
If it's not the install process thats a problem then it must be the queens themselves? 

kiwi


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Stop putting attendants in your cages. Place the attendants on the outside of the cages inside a screened queen holding box to keep them warm. Your split bees could be fighting with the attendants and the queens are getting stung trying to nurse off the outside bees but they get a stinger in the mouth instead of food.

Also let your splits be queenless for at least a couple hours. Some guys have good success immediately placing caged queens in the splits but the cages they use are the JZBZ plastic and those have a protected area that the queen can hide from the workers in.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I don't like attendants in the cages but don't notice any difference in acceptance rate in cage with or without attendants.

I almost always but the cage in immediately, whether using JZBZ or wooden 3-hole cages.

One test I use to measure the "fitness" or quality of queens is to put the queens in a battery box with nurse bees. If the queens attract a lot of bees they will usually hold bees in splits well and have a high level of acceptance.


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## kiwiBee (Jul 23, 2009)

Allen thats an interesting comment about the battery box,
I've noticed that when I've had to bank queens there are always 2-3 that dont have many bees looking after them or sometimes the bees are actively trying to sting them where as the others are all getting looked after fine.

kiwi


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## trulli1 (May 9, 2010)

Kiwi,

Might be worth marking the hives with the queens that orginally didnt have many bees looking after them, see if that leads to anything.


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## kiwiBee (Jul 23, 2009)

trulli, thats a good idea I will definately have a go at that come spring time.
Thanks to all who took the time to reply it's always interesting to see how it all stacks up when comparing ways and means with others.

Ta Much
kiwi


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Kiwi - have you checked how fast the bees are chewing out the candy? As a comparison, cork a batch, install, and manually release after 3 days(or 4 or ?). See if there is a difference. You will be able to judge the bees reaction when you are there. 

Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I don't like attendants in the cages but don't notice any difference in acceptance rate in cage with or without attendants.


same here


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

In helping Ron do splits, he adds a new queen to 3-4 frames of sealed brood when the split is made. He tries to pick frames with no eggs, so the bees have no choice but to accept the new queen. 

He doesn't poke a hole all the way through the candy - halfway, at most. This slows down the release so the bees get used to the new queen before she is released.

I'll have to ask Ron the percentage of acceptance on his splits.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Kiwi- I'd say you might have Nosema, well at least your bees might. Queens lay for awhile then crap out, I'd say Nosema. Keep in mind that those that have problems aren't going to post. For sure honey flow will increase the percentage of acceptance. If bees can't fly for say 10 days then nutrionally speaking they are low on pollen/protein and acceptance goes way down. Typically guys don't work the bees too much in poor weather but if you've got the queens and you need to get the work done then you do it even if the conditions are poor. Same batch of quieens buddy got 60% and I got almost 96%. Mind you mine were smaller. I fed some Caspian solution and fed a very high pollen content patty. The protein level of the bees goes up and acceptance increases dramatically.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I'd say Nosema.

Im going to have to say I agree with that comment also. That does work exactly into your experiences with queen problems.

Last year many beekeepers here had the same trouble with packages shipped in. Poor queen acceptance and performance. It was due to not having the bees treated with fumagillin before shippment. 
I had bought some that same year, but had no trouble at all.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Jean-Marc 

can you explain "Caspian solution "


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Caspian Solution:

Royal Jelly and drone brood crushed (about 1% of total volume) add to that about 2-3% pollen (dissolved with water) 5-10% honey (also dissolved with honey), the rest is syrup. Medications like fumidil-b can be added.
It's high protein, bees love it. Queens lay more eggs, better acceptance of queens, higher percentage of virgins returning from mating. 

Jean-Marc


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jean-marc; If bees can't fly for say 10 days then nutrionally speaking they are low on pollen/protein and acceptance goes way down. . I fed some Caspian solution and fed a very high pollen content patty. The protein level of the bees goes up and acceptance increases dramatically.
Jean-Marc[/QUOTE said:


> Stop!!! We have a winner.
> 
> Very well said, JM


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*Poke a hole in the candy??*

I would like to know who started that totally sucky advice of poking a hole in the candy with a nail?!!! BAD ADVICE!
Why would you poke a hole in the candy? "Oh, uh,, to speed up the release of the queen".
Why would we want to speed up the release of the queen? Answer: WE don't!
We want the release delay to go the full measure. Whats the big hurry?

1) DON'T poke a hole in the candy. :no:
2) No attendants if possible.
3) Always place the queen cage between two frames of open brood with nurse bees. This may mean that you need to take these from other hives.
4) Place a piece of masking tape on the lid with the date of introduction and do not touch the hive for AT LEAST 10 days to allow full acceptance and ballance of brood pherimones.
5) In hot weather if candy plug is soft, place one full wrap of cheapy masking tape over the candy hole. You will need to wrap it all the way around the cage or it will fall off.
I maintain a 98% (or better) acceptance using these tips learned from Kenny Williams.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_In helping Ron do splits, he adds a new queen to 3-4 frames of sealed brood when the split is made. He tries to pick frames with no eggs, so the bees have no choice but to accept the new queen.

He doesn't poke a hole all the way through the candy - halfway, at most. This slows down the release so the bees get used to the new queen before she is released.

I'll have to ask Ron the percentage of acceptance on his splits. _

Ron said he gets 85%-90% acceptance of new queens on splits.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Countryboy said:


> _
> He doesn't poke a hole all the way through the candy - halfway, at most. This slows down the release so the bees get used to the new queen before she is released.
> _


How does poking the candy _ slow down_ the release?
Can you explain that please?!!!


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## golddust-twins (Sep 8, 2007)

*Exellent advice from HarryVanderpool*

Harry is right on with his advice. I use his method and it works like a charm every time. I will reiterate works every time I have used this method. I have tried other methods with no success. Thank you Harry for sharing this info with us.......again. :thumbsup:

Corinne


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_How does poking the candy slow down the release?
Can you explain that please?!!! _

I said poking it halfway, at most. This releases the queen slower than if you poke a hole all the way through the candy.

_I would like to know who started that totally sucky advice of poking a hole in the candy with a nail?!!! BAD ADVICE!
Why would you poke a hole in the candy? "Oh, uh,, to speed up the release of the queen".
Why would we want to speed up the release of the queen? Answer: WE don't!
We want the release delay to go the full measure. Whats the big hurry?_

The sooner your queen is released (and accepted by the bees) the sooner she can start laying and being productive. Production is the big hurry. You do want to make money, don't you?

When introducing a queen to package bees, poking a nail through the candy will speed her release. The bees have already been with the queen in the package long enough they probably have accepted her. Direct releasing is risky if they haven't accepted her, and the nail poked through the candy speeds the release so you don't have to wait any longer than necessary.

I am guessing people approach introducing a queen to package bees the same as they approach introducing a queen to a split.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Countryboy said:


> _The sooner your queen is released (and accepted by the bees) the sooner she can start laying and being productive. Production is the big hurry. You do want to make money, don't you?_


_

Yes. I want to make money. I will not make any money from a dead queen.
If you are in such a big, big hurry to have the queen in the general population; why have any candy at all? Why not just pop the cork and release the queen?
ANSWER: because the bees will ball (kill) the queen on the spot.
That candy is there for a reason and that is to delay the release of the queen. The candy is the release timing mechanisim.
When you (in error) poke at it with a nail, you are speeding the release thereby greatly upping the odds of finding a dead queen or usually no queen at all which is the topic of this thread.
Rather than poking at the candy that was put there for a reason, next time, place one wrap of thin, cheepy masking tape over the hole to FURTHER delay the release time by several hours.
When you go back to check in AT LEAST 10 days, there will not be one single spec of that tape visable. They will have stripped the tape clean from the cage.
There are no short-cuts to queen introduction.

But the excuses for failure are always the same:

1) "The sooner your queen is released (and accepted by the bees) the sooner she can start laying and being productive".
2) "I just can't wait 10 days to see if the queen was accepted. If she wasn't that is too much wasted time.

Both of the above are the biggest queen killers, especially for beginners it seems.
But they are your bees. Kill them any way you please._


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Frankly, I'm not a fan of queen candy release at all. I've seen some that the workers chewed through in less than a day. Others that still weren't released after a week (or ten days if you prefer). I don't think there's a consistant recipe for cage candy. There's also the issue of dead attendants blocking the exit. 
I leave the cage corked for at least three days then release the queen onto a frame with plenty of bees. You'll know in a moment or two if she's been accepted. If not, you can put her back in the cage before any damage is done.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Royal Jelly and drone brood crushed (about 1% of total volume) add to that about 2-3% pollen (dissolved with water) 5-10% honey (also dissolved with honey), the rest is syrup. Medications like fumidil-b can be added.

how in the world did you come up with that?
how often do you feed it?


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

"Why not just pop the cork and release the queen?
ANSWER: because the bees will ball (kill) the queen on the spot." HV

This is not always the case. When conditions are right, and one is able to read the conditions, direct release is very possible. I have observed direct released queens instantly receive a retinue and begin laying within a few minutes. Candy tubes are nice the rest of the time(s).


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Are you picking on me again, John?
I think we need to get our own radio show.
That way, we can always disagree on cue.
Hugs & Kisses!!

:lookout:


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

I had exactly the same experience...loss of early queens and no loss of queens a month later....has to be a fertility issue, cause the pheremones are doing the "accept me" plea.....I am guessing that those later queens are much more thoroughly mated, which, in theory, should turn up the accept me pheremone signals...


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Ian: I did not come up with that. Hossein Yeganehrad of Caspian Apiaries di. He has a websiter. I'm not sure if he has updated it or not. I feed it as often as possible. We are having a poor spring. We just finished a nice 10 day run of nectar and pollen. Before that rain and now more rain. If bees are fed the Caspian solution, the colony stays broody. Also importan to feed a good patty, otherwise ther bees can get into a protein deficiency. At that point they are vulnerable to diseases and are shorter lived.

Jean-Marc


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