# Warre's original roof VS Heaf's variation - Which is better?



## Teabag

Hi,

It's ok, you are not missing the point of Warres original design. The way I understand it is that the purpose of Warres design is not to allow any moisture to transport out of the hive via the quilt box. The moisture is retained (not vented) but is absorbed into the quilt creating a warm humid environment which he felt was beneficial for the colony. I think David Heaf feels that it may be a problem in certain climates and some ventilation is desirable, hence his four ventilation holes to the roof void on his own design. Hope this helps.


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## Michael Bush

>The roof does not have a cover board.

I'm not sure I see your dilemma. The inner cover in Heaf's design is the cloth as is the inner cover in the Warre' design. That is what keeps the bees from moving up into the chaff area or removing the chaff. Both Heaf's design and Warre's design have space above the chaff. The only real difference is that Warre's design as shown does not have a way for the moisture to get out the top. A few holes on the side, however, would fix that. As to why Warre' did not come up with the holes, a man can only do so many experiments in a lifetime of beekeeping. The turnover for experiments is a year, so you can try three or four things in one year, but it's hard to tell if it was the design or luck unless you do a LOT of each design. Maybe Warre' just didn't get quite that far...

Moist air rises. I think it needs a way out.


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## Cabin

First point. Maybe Warre was working in a region where it was more important to keep humidity in the hive.

Second. From what I have read about Warre hives the top board was supposed to be permeable to let moister out and avoid drafts. Modern plywood is not very permeable(if at all) and porous boards that size are hard to find around these parts.

Times and places change so designs have to change as well.


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## HiveMind

Just a couple thoughts as I continue thinking about this. 

* Michael's point about only having a limited number of years to innovate within one's lifetime is a good point! Certainly can't fault a person for not solving every problem on a global scale. Warre wasn't likely writing his book with the idea that people all over the Internet would be trying to apply it to their climate too. 

* I still don't grasp the idea that a colony needs moist humid air in certain climates. I'd love to understand more about this. 

* In my original post (posted in the wrong sub-forum) Bernhard Huevel commented that the key is to get the dew point outside of the hive. The quilt and telescoping roof provide a substantial buffer between the internal and external climates. This makes a ton of sense and does seem to be what we're all trying to prevent in Winter. If there is moisture content in the confines of the hive structure but the dew point is kept outside that mitigates the issue we all are working to resolve.


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## Cabin

HiveMind said:


> Just a couple thoughts as I continue thinking about this.
> 
> * Michael's point about only having a limited number of years to innovate within one's lifetime is a good point! Certainly can't fault a person for not solving every problem on a global scale. Warre wasn't likely writing his book with the idea that people all over the Internet would be trying to apply it to their climate too.
> 
> * I still don't grasp the idea that a colony needs moist humid air in certain climates. I'd love to understand more about this.
> 
> * In my original post (posted in the wrong sub-forum) Bernhard Huevel commented that the key is to get the dew point outside of the hive. The quilt and telescoping roof provide a substantial buffer between the internal and external climates. This makes a ton of sense and does seem to be what we're all trying to prevent in Winter. If there is moisture content in the confines of the hive structure but the dew point is kept outside that mitigates the issue we all are working to resolve.


If I recall correctly the brood risk drying out if the hive is not humid enough but risk getting moldy if too damp.


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## rusuley

What is your opinion about this roof at Warre hive?


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## rusuley

and this


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## rusuley

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## rusuley

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## rusuley

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## rusuley

and this


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## rusuley

and this


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## rusuley

and this


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## Michael Bush

If I can't set things on the roof, I don't have much use for them...


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## HiveMind

rusuley said:


> and this
> View attachment 22086


That is some amazing wood working!


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## jadebees

I like a flat telescoping roof, it allows placing the boxes on the ground, on the flipped over roof. So, my vote is for niether. I put a small strip of wood inside to ventilate, on 2 edges over the quilt. I use an inner cover, same as a Lang hive. Of course, made for the bee space, a 3/8" gap over the topbars. It is vastly superior to the cloth, in a Warre hive. I can use a jar feeder, sugar blocks, and not have a bunch of glued topbars. I can place an ordinary spare box for jar feeding over the cover. I can use a block of wood over the hole, and place styrofoam on it in winter. Queen excluders work fine without the cloth. The quilt works well, the inner cloth can be removed, in my opinion.I abandoned them years ago. It has made my management of Warre hives much more convenient. (like Lang hives). All this works great in a Warre hive. More than roofs can be improved on. Putting window screen over the quilt cloth keeps them out of the filler. Then it functions just the same, while over an inner cover, even if you have nothing else on but the roof. I didn't come up with any of this, it's just applied and fitted to Warre hives. I guess I sure have beat that obsession with being a purist!


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## HiveMind

jadebees said:


> I put a small strip of wood inside to ventilate, on 2 edges over the quilt.


I like this technique. Allows for a ventilation option with no physical modification necessary.


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## HiveMind

So here's an update...

I've decided for now to go with Warre's original roof design. If after a year of using it I decide I'd like a ventilation option I can modify it accordingly. I'm in the process of drafting up the measurements my roof needs to be since I'm adapting the concept to Langstroth medium super dimensions. 

I went ahead and used medium supers with #8 hardware fabric on the bottom and filled with pine shavings as quilts. I like all my boxes being the same and so I did not make a shallow box for the quilt. Just used a medium I had laying around. That's a lot more quilt material than necessary probably. But it also moves the dew point farther from the Winter cluster. Maybe overkill but can't hurt. 

Also of note, I wanted to understand what the difference in volume was between the usable area of a 8 frame Medium Langstroth versus the smaller size of the Warre boxes. The usable area in a Warre hive box is basically the volume of the internal dimension minus the volume that the top bars take up. On a Langstroth only the space in the middle of the frames count, as the bees won't use the bee space above the top bars, below the bottom bars or the space outside the end bars. Langstroth 8 frame mediums are larger boxes but to my delight here's how close the difference is:

Warre usable comb area per box: 1087 cubic inches
8 frame Lang usable comb area per box: 1093 cubic inches

Just 6 cubic inches difference! That basically implies that hybridizing an 8 frame Lang apiary with the addition of a quilt, roof and bottom entrance gives an extremely similar setup dimensionally to a pure Warre setup. I can't do cutouts every summer if I had no Lang frame to rubber band the comb sections to. So for me I've got to have the full frame. I'm excited 8 frame langs get me that close to Warre's usable area per box! 

Should be a fun experiment anyway.


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## jadebees

HiveMind, thanks for doing that math. I never bothered, but did notice an 8 frame & Warre box take about the same time if the 8 frame is foundationless. That wood, and extra beespace, takes up lotsa room. I made a lot of surplus 8 frame boxes into 12 topbar Warre hives. I use them for swarm lures, as they are large enough to be well accepted and they are big enough to let bees grow for weeks before moving to a proper hive. I have a small colony wintering over in one, as it only got to be 10 topbars. Next year, i'm making some double/triple lure box, warre topbars. Long Warre hives, I may not have to move them ever.


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## HiveMind

The additional wood and bee space does indeed take up a lot of room. Namely, unusable room. That got me curious. So I did the math. A Langstroth 8 frame medium has a total volume of 1491 sq/in. That means the wasted volume is close to 50%. That's a significant tradeoff to be sure. 

That being said, I've done cutouts where the bees have built out in very inefficient structures volume-wise. I think the waste at hand here is the fact that the woodenware costs more to the beekeeper with a Langstroth setup. As long as they have a dry cavity the honeybees will accept it, adapt and thrive.

I honestly gave consideration to going the pure Warre route. I've been doing foundationless from the start so no worries there. It would simply be a change in my woodenware. But then I realized I need frames for my cut out jobs. Fine with me as I have hundreds invested in my current setup anyway. 

So Langstroth/Warre hybrid it is! I'll see if I can come up with the best of both worlds!


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## jadebees

These work well. New splits materials here for spring.

PHOTO FAIL.... just never works !


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## BeekeepingIsGood

You could Ask David about his experience. He responds to questions daily on his yahoo group. I know I've heard him talk about mouse boards, I wouldn't be surprised if he normally uses them.

I agree with those who like flat roofs. I also like the enclosed quilt and the solar shield of typical warré roofs. So I just made one with a flat top. A few photos of them can be seen about half way down this page: http://www.beekeeping.isgood.ca/equipment/how-to-keep-a-beehive-cool-during-a-heat-wave




HiveMind said:


> But then I realized I need frames for my cut out jobs. Fine with me as I have hundreds invested in my current setup anyway.


I often hear people recommend that new beekeepers start with standard equipment and switch later. The problem with that is exactly as you describe. Once you've invested in a system it becomes more difficult to switch.

You can of course put frames in a warré. The inventor himself included plans for this in the early editions of his book. Currently I am all frames in my modified warré hives. I use a much simpler design, with much thinner pieces of wood than used in the standard hoffman frames.










In retrospect, I believe it's possible to build them with even less wood, and therefore less dead space in the hive, then the design pictured above.



HiveMind said:


> So Langstroth/Warre hybrid it is! I'll see if I can come up with the best of both worlds!


For me one of the most interesting features of the warré is the relatively narrow square shape. I think this feature is more important than the volume of a single box. A narrower hive means it is more likely that a tight winter cluster will occupy the full width of a hive.


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