# T F with granulated sugar?



## Sickdog5 (Jun 8, 2016)

I had a old beek tell me he was TF and he would use screened bottom boards with sticky boards. He would cover the bees in granulated sugar and they would clean each other off. Them doing this would remove mites. Anyone ever hear or try this? How do you get all the bee's covered in sugar?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i wonder if he meant powdered sugar instead of granulated.

randy oliver has a few articles on this page about it:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/varroa-management/biotechnical-methods/


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

There isn't much difference between powdered sugar and granulated sugar that has been ground finer (perhaps in a blender).


Commercial powdered sugar typically has a small amount of cornstarch added to reduce 'caking' of the sugar.

My opinion is that dusting with powdered sugar "_can_" work to reduce mite levels ... BUT ... how effective it is depends on how frequently the sugar is applied. 


Note that under the rules of this TF forum, using powdered sugar to control mites *is* considered a treatment. See: https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?253066-Unique-Forum-Rules


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> There isn't much difference between powdered sugar and granulated sugar that has been ground finer (perhaps in a blender).


Fakhimzadeh, Ellis and Hayes (2011) Physical control of varroa mites (Varroa destructor): the effects of various dust materials on varroa mite fall from adult honey bees (Apis mellifera) in vitro. Journal of Apicultural Research 50(3): 203-211.
suggests other wise 
ground sugar dropped 39.19% more mites then powdered sugar, and killed 24.47% more bees.. 
wait what?
yes powered sugar kills bees. and In fact if you look ad E Rademacher Et Al - ‎2017 , Effects of Oxalic Acid on Apis mellifera OA trickle would seem to kill less bees then powdered sugar... and by outher works, OAV is less then the bolth of them

Powder sugar treatments are all about the beekeeper...not the bees.
if you have to resort to treatments to save your stock.....use one that works, and is safer on the bees.... powdered sugar is not it!


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Sickdog5 said:


> I had a old beek tell me he was TF and he would use screened bottom boards with sticky boards. He would cover the bees in granulated sugar and they would clean each other off. Them doing this would remove mites. Anyone ever hear or try this? How do you get all the bee's covered in sugar?


I´ve done it.
You can´t use powdered commercial sugar because of the starch. Powder some sugar without starch in a coffe grinder. Put no granulated sugar into the top of the hive, powdered sugar will come out at the bottom granulated though because of the humidity of the interiour.
Use 200g for a 10 frame deep dadant size.
Use a sieve and a spoon like icing a cake, brush it gently into the frame spaces. Close the hive and wait 10 Minutes.
Take out the floor board, use water to solve the sugar and sieve to count the mites.
Do this every 2 days for ten times and you have taken as many mites as with OAV.

Do it in summer it must be dry and warm. The bees start grooming and vibrating off the mites.

I treated one colony with thymol because it is too late in year for me to use sugar treatment or take out capped brood frames to freeze.

The sugar treatment like that killed no bees despite people saying it. The sugar shake in a container to count mites kills bees.IMO.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

yes, I do use the Domino's powdered sugar on my topbar hive bees (17 colonies this year, keeping bees since 2013) on a monthly basis for varroa control. I guess it really doesn't count as true TF, but it is the only thing I am using for varroa control. (not all of mine get a brood break and capped drones are rarely removed since I'm breeding queens from multiple lines). They say Randy Oliver says it doesn't work, but I actually ran across a blog post where the writer had received a response from Randy where he said it depended on the number of times it was applied, etc. (http://countryrubes.com/blog/messing-with-powdered-sugar-midsummer-dusting-results/)

The way I apply mine is with an Oxo kitchen sifter. I pull each topbar out and park it on the wooden bar as a pivot, tip each bar slightly to one side, dust the bees with the sugar, then pivot the other way, and dust that side. All bars/bees gets done. Preferred application is monthly, but some of my hives didn't get done that frequently this season. Sugar roll mite counts are less than 3/300 bees for my hives. As a side note, I also have all screened bottoms with solid IPM boards in underneath with diatomaceous earth on the solid IPM board. That way, the mites that are groomed off, fall into the DE to die and don't climb back up on the bees to reinfest them. I have only had one solid bottomed nuc, that I had from another beekeeper to get her hive started, and I could visually see the mites crawling around on the bottom of the hive after a sugar dusting.

I have a video on my FB page of how I did this on Jan 1, 2017 after seeing mites on forager bees outside the hive. That hive recovered nicely that year and provided multiple splits that spring and summer. https://www.facebook.com/topbarbeehive/videos/1595149227178268/


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

According to post#5 that would be 4 and 1/2 pounds of sugar ground in a coffee grinder and dusted over the frames 10 ten times. You would have to be very dedicated!

Bee pro claimed he sliced the mites off with a small razor!

I am surprised the bees survive the aggravation. How does this play out for run mill bees in Texas and Arizona?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Crofter,
ten times is in case of emergency.
One time now and then is prophylactically but then you must start in spring and do it every 3 or 4 weeks.
I understand it´s not fo commercials.

My bees had no problem. They never attacked ( the watchers at the entrance were not dusted). I really believe it´s not much to them.
I just did it too late in season so the bees were already damaged.

Many european hobbyists now do this kind of treatment, there are even units for it to purchase to blow the sugar in. Then you need less sugar and it´s faster than an OAV.
The reason the beekeepers do it is the microfauna to be saved.


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## Sickdog5 (Jun 8, 2016)

Guess I should have put it in the Chemical Free forum instead


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Sickdog5 said:


> Guess I should have put it in the Chemical Free forum instead


no big deal, the post is fine for this forum.

i think rader was alluding to the fact that your older friend might not be considered tf by some.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I was simply pointing out that - contrary to the thread title - using sugar to control varroa mites is a "_*treatment*_".

Its not that sugar may (or may not be) benign; the very fact that one is intending to control mites makes the application a _treatment_, regardless of the substance used.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

Sickdog5 said:


> Guess I should have put it in the Chemical Free forum instead


Also note that Sugar in any form is still a chemical.  In any case, not all coke's are a Coke which no longer contains coke(cocaine), but does contain lots of sugar; unless it is a Coke Zero which has no sugar, but aspartame and other chemicals to make you think it has sugar.


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## Sickdog5 (Jun 8, 2016)

texanbelchers said:


> Sickdog5 said:
> 
> 
> > Guess I should have put it in the Chemical Free forum instead
> ...


Well sugar is a chemical ok didn’t know that. I drink Coke and Pepsi. I don’t drink Apivar or Mite away quick strips. Trying to find a way to help my bees without putting a bunch of chemicals in my hive.


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## Sickdog5 (Jun 8, 2016)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I was simply pointing out that - contrary to the thread title - using sugar to control varroa mites is a "_*treatment*_".
> 
> Its not that sugar may (or may not be) benign; the very fact that one is intending to control mites makes the application a _treatment_, regardless of the substance used.


 no I get it you are right. Didn’t realize it is still a treatment even though it doesn’t involve chemical. Ohh wait sugar is a chemical. Never mind


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

Sickdog5 said:


> Well sugar is a chemical ok didn’t know that. I drink Coke and Pepsi. I don’t drink Apivar or Mite away quick strips. Trying to find a way to help my bees without putting a bunch of chemicals in my hive.


Just poking fun; we're all trying to figure out the best path.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hey Sickdog if you eat vegetables you are probably eating some OA also a chemical. But powdered sugar or ground down sugar are the treatments of choice for the shareholders of Domino's Sugar.
Johno


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