# buckfast dadant boxes



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

No one makes a box that I know of. I make my own. If you use a 1 by 12 and add 1 1/8" onto the bottom you can just screen that and leave an opening in the front and you won't need a bottom board. If you make it 19 7/8 x 19 7/8 It will hold 12 or 13 frames if you crowd or if you have small cell, use a plane and take one swipe on each side of the end bars (make sure you do this before there are nails from the sides of the end bars or don't nail from the sides) and fit 14 frames in. I just put a standard super on and a 20" long 1 by four on the side to fill the gap. That way I can use a standard queen excluder etc. Frames are available from Western Bee Supply but they are not listed in the catalog. You will have to call and ask for them. If you get someone who says they don't have them try back again later or insist. They will tell you they are only available in budget frames. These are nice frames. The reason I think they call them budget is the notch in the side bars for the bottom bar is too wide. I just center it and nail it and it works fine.

I haven't found foundation, but am using small cell anyway, so I am just putting deep foundation and leaving the 2 inch gap at the bottom. 


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited January 17, 2004).]


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

MB, 

Thanks. I think I will make supers to fit them at some point but may start with regular supers for now. Do you think a laminated 1 x 14 will work (cut to size)? I really want a bottom board instead of screen bottom. I will check with western bee supply. I may just make my own frames. How deep is the top rabbit on them?

How do you find that the bees winter in these hives?

Clay


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have had 12 Dadant Jumbo hives since I visited Brother Adam in 1978. I would not again make 20X20 medium supers, but it does help keep the big producers lower when they make a big crop. I only have 31 for my 12 hives anyway, so I use a lot of Langstroth size supers on the square hives, with a board to cover the gap. Sweinty in Denmark sells 19 1/5" X 19 3/4" queen excluders, I finally bought them last year, after 25 years of using Lanstroth excluders with a thin board. One thing I don't like is that you don't have second brood chamber for requeening and divides. I agree with Brother Adam that it is the best size single brood chamber. Dadant sells the deep foundation in normal cell size. I hope to get them on Sbb's one day.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Check out the polystyrene Jumbo boxes for sale at Sweinty. Want to make an order with me ? They have ones that will break down for shipping reduced fees. 

http://www.swienty.com/engelsk/index-us.htm


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Deep frames... can we afford the freight ?
http://www.swienty.com/engelsk/frames2.html


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Don't you love the Swienty website ? 
http://www.swienty.com/products/101845.htm


----------



## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

I ordered several of the APIDEA mating nuc boxes from Swienty a couple years ago and was pleased with their service and price. These were super little mating nucs and I've enjoyed using them.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thanks. I think I will make supers to fit them at some point but may start with regular supers for now.

I wouldn't. Oddfrank has and says he wouldn't again. They are too heavy. If I was going to use nonstandard ones, I go to the eight frame ones.









>Do you think a laminated 1 x 14 will work (cut to size)?

Sure, but it's too expensive. You can just cut a 1/2 inch strip and nail it on the bottom of one made from a 1 x 12. I've done several this way.

>I really want a bottom board instead of screen bottom.

Then put the 1/2 inch strip on and make a bottom board.

>I will check with western bee supply. I may just make my own frames. How deep is the top rabbit on them?

A standard hive is 5/8" deep on the frame rest rabbit. Is that what you mean? The frames are 3/8" on the ends of the bars same as any other size.

>How do you find that the bees winter in these hives?

I've built more of them than I've used so far, since this is a recent experiment. This is the first winter and I only have one, but so far it's doing well.

I have several dadant deep boxes. I have two 5 frame nucs, three ten frame boxes and two double wides (32 1/2") and I'm going to build a three wide besides the square one. Some I built from 1 x 12 and some are converted 9 5/8" deep boxes. One is a medium with 5" added on.

If it was me, I'd add on to one of your 10 frame boxes (2" wide box and put it on with the hive moving staples), shave the sides off the end bars down to 1 1/4" wide for your small cell and you'll get 11 frames in a 10 frame box. With the increased number of brood cells on small cell you'll still have more brood cells in that box than with 12 frames of large cell in a square box. You won't have to build a special bottom board etc. If you really like it, then you can build a sqaure one with all the extras. That way you only have to build one 2" high box that you staple on and 11 dadant deep frames. Just a suggestion.


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

I am quite set on making the jumbo dadant supers. They only weight 50lbs. Thats a heck of alot lighter than my lang deeps for certain lol. I due have to find the hieght of those supers though? I here they are 6" tall but not sure?

>Sure, but it's too expensive. You can just >cut a 1/2 inch strip and nail it on the >bottom of one made from a 1 x 12. I've done >several this way.

I will do the 1x12 with the half inch nailed on. I was thinking of using a busicuit joiner to join two boards but thats more work.


>Then put the 1/2 inch strip on and make a >bottom board.

I am thinking of making rather fancier once like Brother Adam used with a 0ne inch drop from back to front to facilitate water dranage. But this is a maybe?


>standard hive is 5/8" deep on the frame >rest rabbit. Is that what you mean? The >frames are 3/8" on the ends of the bars >same as any other size.

I was just trying to figure if the hive maintained top or bottom bee space since alot of european designs have bottom. But answered my own question.

I think I really like the idea of a single deep jumbo box. That with the proper supers will allow for a much shorter stacked colony, at least half the height of a langstroth colony. Also my mill can make any length of foundation and the depth can be from 15 or 17 inches (can't remember) but I think I may use starters strips. What I am thinking of doing is to make a swarm cathing frame the size of a dadant frame cut out a 4.9 mm combs and place in the swarm catching frame to use as a seed comb in the dadant box. For a queen excluder I am thinking of getting those plastic excluder and using two ad cuting them to size maybe bounding them with wood with a few wooden slats (one landing at the seam) or some such idea. Or what size hardware cloth will allow workerbees to pass freely yet exclude the queen? I'm trying to be creative here guys so bear with me. If really like these hives I may sell the equipment on a small scale, but I will have to see.


----------



## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

So the Jumbo boxes on the Swienty site are 12 frames?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am quite set on making the jumbo dadant supers. They only weight 50lbs. Thats a heck of alot lighter than my lang deeps for certain lol. I due have to find the hieght of those supers though? I here they are 6" tall but not sure?

What size frames are these? If you build a 13 frame (19 7/8" x 19 7/8") box in shallow it will be 5 3/4" deep (or some people make them 5 11/16") it will weigh 65 pounds full. Managable, but not 50 pounds.

If you build a square box in mediums it will be 6 5/8" deep and will weigh 78 pounds full.

If you build a square box in deeps it will be 9 5/8" deep and will weigh 120 pounds full.

>I am thinking of making rather fancier once like Brother Adam used with a 0ne inch drop from back to front to facilitate water dranage. But this is a maybe?

I always thought that was a good design, but then I started doing screened bottom boards, so the slope didn't seem so important. Of course this may be a miscalculation on my part because the slope of the cover or inner cover may be just as important to prevent condensation drips on the cluster.

>I was just trying to figure if the hive maintained top or bottom bee space since alot of european designs have bottom. But answered my own question.

Honestly, American hives have both. There is typically 1/8" bottom space and 1/4" top space, if you don't use frame rests. I think if you are going to build Dadant deep boxes I'd do them the same as any other Langstroth equipment.

>I think I really like the idea of a single deep jumbo box. That with the proper supers will allow for a much shorter stacked colony, at least half the height of a langstroth colony.

Another option is to go with twice the width of an eight frame box for the brood box and two eight frame boxes wide the rest of the way up. You'll end up with about 18 frames in the brood box. A little more unlimited brood space, a litle shorter and more managable supers. You could also, if you want to make all your own anyway, make a half of a Dadant deep super. 

>For a queen excluder I am thinking of getting those plastic excluder and using two ad cuting them to size maybe bounding them with wood with a few wooden slats (one landing at the seam) or some such idea. They would be 9 9/16" wide and hold five frames spaces a bit wide (better for honey anyway). If you put Dadant deep frames in a super this wide it would weigh 50 pounds full of honey. Not a bad weight to handle and all your frames are the same size. Deeps this size would weigh 45 pounds.

I think I'd get the wood bound metal ones and just make a frame that is a little wider on the sides. The wood on the sides will only be 1 13/16" wider so you could make the sides 2 9/16" wide and cut a 3/8" groove for the excluder to fit in.

>Or what size hardware cloth will allow workerbees to pass freely yet exclude the queen?

No such thing. #5 is what the African beekeepers use. It's called "Coffee wire" there because the use it to screen coffee beans. The bees can get through. The queen cannot, but as you know, #5 is what we use for pollen traps to make them lose their pollen load. A very tight squeeze, not what I would call "passing freely." But it will let the workers through and not the queen. Of course if you have an upper and lower entrance there will be LESS traffic going through the #5 screen and pollen won't be going there anyway, but I always worry about wear and tear on the wings.



[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited January 19, 2004).]


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi MB,

I have just got a response from Dave Cushman who is quite well versed in Dadant hives. He has told me that it is more common to have the deep boxes at 11.5". Brother Adams boxes were 12" due to the fact that his bottom boards had a 1/2" splinth around them that locked into the hive body requiring the extra 1/2". So I think common 1x12 should work for that.

As for my 50 lb supers. I was going by what Br. Adam said here as he used a 6 inch super. I have now decided not to use one like anyone else. I think I will use common wood stock withs either 1x6 (5 1/2") or 1x8 (7 1/2"). It just seems to make sense to make supers in commonly available wood widths. Since I have to build my own anyways. I plan on running 10 or 11 frames in the supers. Well this is my thoughts at the momment so they may change 10 more times by spring









I have lots of metal bound excluders so I think I will try your idea of putting wood around them. I have #5 mesh too so will try that also. I will try the plastic excluders too. I will see what I like best.

Clay


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I run my Dadant brood chambers as 12 frames with two follower boards made of 1/4" plywood. Thirteen frames are a real squeeze because we have lots of propolis here. I run the 20X20" supers with a standard depth medium frame using both the nine and eight frame Stoller spacers. I think this gives me ten and eleven frames in the supers. I put handle cleats all the way around and do not find these supers too heavy. I will however in about five more years. Thirty years ago my buddy suggested we go with all shallow supers to cope with in our old age. I should of listened, I'm getting there fast. Standard 1X12's are a tad shallow for the brood boxes. The frames are 11 1/4" and a standard 1X12 is often not much more than 11 1/2" wide. I added strips to the bottom of the supers as they seem to have shrunk over the 25 years they have been in service. Some need replacement as do my Slatted racks.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I run my Dadant brood chambers as 12 frames with two follower boards made of 1/4" plywood. Thirteen frames are a real squeeze because we have lots of propolis here.

In small cell you can plane the bars and get 1 1/4" wide spacing instead of 1 3/8". With this you can get 11 frames in a 10 frame box. You can get 14 frames in a 19 7/8" square box. With your followers you only end up with 2 extra frames over a standard 10 frame and only 1 extra frame over 11 small cell frames in a 10 frame box. And 11 small cell Dadant deep frames have 115,500 cells on them. 12 large cell Dadant deep frames have 105,000 cells on them. 14 frames of Dadant deep small cell has 147,000 cells on them.

>I run the 20X20" supers with a standard depth medium frame using both the nine and eight frame Stoller spacers. I think this gives me ten and eleven frames in the supers.

I've thought of making it an even 20 x 20". Does this work out well?

>I put handle cleats all the way around and do not find these supers too heavy.

If you rip down a 1 x 8 to make the 6 5/8" you can use the scrap for the cleats.

>I will however in about five more years. Thirty years ago my buddy suggested we go with all shallow supers to cope with in our old age. I should of listened, I'm getting there fast.

And you can rip down a 1 x 8 to make 5 3/4" or rip down a 1 x 6 to make a 4 3/4" extra shallow. And in all cases use the scrap for the handle cleat. Since I just make a butt joint on my box, I would rip the board before cutting to legnth, then the frame rest sides are 18 3/8" long with a rabbet and the other sides are 19 7/8" long. I can cut the scrap to be two 19 7/8" long pieces to put on the non-rabbeted sides (the 19 7/8" sides) and two 21 3/8" pieces to run past the joints to tie it all together and screw into the ends of the the sides and the ends of the other cleats.

>Standard 1X12's are a tad shallow for the brood boxes. The frames are 11 1/4" and a standard 1X12 is often not much more than 11 1/2" wide.

I agree. When I get a 1 x 12 it's often only 11 1/4". If you have an 11 1/4" frame and a 1/4" beespace at the top that leaves your frames sticking out 1/4" at the bottom. I suppose if you never try to move the box and set it on something flat, you could just make your bottom board a little taller, but I like having the extra on the box if I have a seperate bottom board so I can set the box on something flat wihtout pushing the frames up.


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

MB writes:

>I've thought of making it an even 20 x 20". >Does this work out well?

I don't see what it will hurt. Its only an 1/8 anyways.

>I agree. When I get a 1 x 12 it's often >only 11 1/4". If you have an 11 1/4" frame >and a 1/4" beespace at the top that leaves >your frames sticking out 1/4" at the >bottom. I suppose if you never try to move >the box and set it on something flat, you >could just make your bottom board a little >taller, but I like having the extra on the >box if I have a seperate bottom board so I >can set the box on something flat wihtout >pushing the frames up.

You guys are probably right. I will have to play this by ear. If my lumber is closer to 11 1/4" then I will add to the box. If it work out to 11 1/2" and the frames rest flush with the bottom then I may not. You can get away with this on the brood chambers as they are single chambers. But the supers must have proper bee space.

I have just ordered a really good dado for my tablesaw (my old one is about junk now). If there's enough intrest in people wanting to use dadant hives I may just start offering dadant frames for sale (limited quantities). Maybe covers and bottom boards too.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>>I agree. When I get a 1 x 12 it's often >only 11 1/4". If you have an 11 1/4" frame >and a 1/4" beespace at the top that leaves >your frames sticking out 1/4" at the >bottom. I suppose if you never try to move >the box and set it on something flat, you >could just make your bottom board a little >taller, but I like having the extra on the >box if I have a seperate bottom board so I >can set the box on something flat wihtout >pushing the frames up.


Why not use a 1 x 14 (13.25) and have some extra bee cluster space below the brood area? Would the extra 1.75" be too much?


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Opps! Must have double-tapped...

[This message has been edited by BULLSEYE BILL (edited January 20, 2004).]


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why not use a 1 x 14 (13.25) and have some extra bee cluster space below the brood area? Would the extra 1.75" be too much?

I've never seen a 1 x 14. I would guess they are expensive if you could find them. I HAVE seen the laminated boards and they are expensive.

The bees would build some comb on the bottom, but since there is never a box below, I don't know that it would hurt anything.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

If you can find 1X14 it is very expensive per board foot. Hey, if you were only going to run them as singles you could build you're slatted rack in that space as part of the super.

I was being lazy when I said 20X20. If you use this dimension the frames might not rest properly and drop down. I actually make them 19 7/8 or whatever it is supposed to be.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If you can find 1X14 it is very expensive per board foot. Hey, if you were only going to run them as singles you could build you're slatted rack in that space as part of the super.

I think by the time you get to 1 x 14 it is expensive and probably would be cheaper at that point to buy plywood. You COULD, since you're only going one deep, build in a slatted rack and the cluster space and the bottom board if you made it out of plywood.

>I was being lazy when I said 20X20. If you use this dimension the frames might not rest properly and drop down. I actually make them 19 7/8 or whatever it is supposed to be. 

I was wondering if you meant a literal 20 x 20.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Has anyone considered that 19 x 19 7/8 has a lot of advantages. It is exactly twice the width of a 5 frame nuc. You can put two miller feeders for a 5 frame nuc (available from Brushy Mt.) on side by side. You can put any depth 5 frame nuc you want for supers. You can use deeps, or you could buy deeps and add on to make Dadant deeps, or you can build Dadant deeps, or you can buy mediums from Brushy Mt.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Dadant deeps are not in the catalog or on the web site. Are they still available?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Dadant deeps are not in the catalog or on the web site. Are they still available?

I assume you mean Western Bee Supply? They only have frames and they are not listed. You have to ask for them. They will tell you they are only available in budget. Take those. The notch for the bottom bar on the end bars will be too wide, but just center the bottom bar and nail it. They work fine.

No one else has them that I know of. I don't know if you could talk somone into making them, like Walter T. Kelly.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Thanks, I'll call them.


----------



## Kansas Volunteer (Dec 11, 2003)

I have a question about these jumbo Dadant hives that relates to the recent discussion on the tbh thread.

When a jumbo Dadant is all set up and running well, with enough brood chamber to suit your fancy, and supered, what is the hive volume in litres?

David S.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The sqaure dadant deep box on a bottom board by itself is 66 liters. Obviously you super as much as you like. I would expect four or five medium supers on that, but you typically overwinter in just the bottom box. Five standard 10 frame medium supers by themselves are 147 liters. That's a total of 213 liters in the middle of the honey flow and 66 liters for overwintering.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

All the jumbo deep frames are all gone







and there will not be any more, she said. Oh well, I would rather have my 12" deep PC anyway. I was thinking about maybe starting a small cell horizonal hive, so much for that.


----------



## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

BB: Did you figure out how to connect 2 medium PC combs together? Thanks


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>All the jumbo deep frames are all gone and there will not be any more, she said. 

That is terrible! I wanted quite a few more in the spring!


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

That is terrrible. We should all write a letter asking them to keep them in production. Swienty is the only other source. We are talking Western , correct ?


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Don't that figure that they don't have them. Well I finally got my new dado a few days ago. I guess I can build any kinda frame I want and in any style.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You really only have to build end bars. Most suppliers will sell you top and bottom bars seperately even if they don't list and and many do.

Maybe if enough of us request them they will make another run of them.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>BB: Did you figure out how to connect 2 medium PC combs together? Thanks


Yeah, I will plastic weld them together, I ordered a welder, should be here this week. It uses a special rod for poly. Welding two together will give me 12 x 17 square inches of nearly solid comb per side.


>Maybe if enough of us request them they will make another run of them.


She said in pretty certain terms that there will not be any more because they were poor sellers and they were just glad to be rid of what they had.


>We are talking Western , correct ?


I don't know if they are called western, I don't think so. I think MB called them jumbo deeps, 11 3/8"?


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

I think they were talking about western bee supply.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

oh, doh!


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I think it was Dadant that referred me to Western Bee back in 1979, when I first ordered deep frames. Even back then the gal at Western kinda pretended at first that she they didn't have any, and later "found" some deep end bars in the back room. This repeated itself several times, up until last year, over that 25 year period. **** you guys for buying what they had left. I have to go check how many I still have. Clayton or MB should take a trip to Denmark and bring us back a few cases from Swienty.


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

I never got a chance to buy any from them. I guess I never will. I don't think I will be heading to denmark anytime soon though. If you guys need end bars I could make them for you if you get desperate. They propbably won't be as fancy but should be functional. I don't have a shaper so would have to rip a sawblade off each side to make the taper. Doesn't look as nice but works all the same.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>**** you guys for buying what they had left.

YOU got us interested and told us where to get them.







I will try making my own and see how it goes. I will only make the ends and buy the top and bottom bars. Maybe if we got enough of us together we could get them to make a run of 10,000 or so. If ten of use would each buy 1000 end bars they might be willing to set up to make a run of them. Meanwhile if we keep calling maybe they will decide there is a market to keep some around when they do a run for us?

Anyone interested in buying 1000 end bars?


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have heard that a lot of deep frames in Langstroth size supers are used in Mexico. That would be a freight economic source if we could track one down.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You could also just use deep frames in a Dadant deep box and let the bees buld comb on the bottom bars down as far as they want.

I would also be curious if there is somewhere in Mexico to get them.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Thank you Brother Adam for looking out for me, and protecting me from the scofflaws on this message board who have used up the whole nationwide supply of Dadant frames..... I checked my shop today and I have a partial box of deep frames and foundation to match still left. This should last me at least a year or two. Could you also help me find the flatbed trailer I am looking for on which to permanently mount all of my Jumbo hives ?


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

You forgot to say AMEN...


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I searched the web for Mexican suppliers and so far have struck out.


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Ok guys,

I built a bunch of dadant end bars today and constructed 8 frames. Till it dawned on me I have a few questions. What is the length from the top of the end bar to the bottom of the hoffman spacing taper? Also how many wires 5 or 6? I costed out the end bars using 2x6 stock and come up with around .04 cents per end bar. I think thats cheap enough.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I built a bunch of dadant end bars today and constructed 8 frames. Till it dawned on me I have a few questions. What is the length from the top of the end bar to the bottom of the hoffman spacing taper?

It's the same on all frames from Extra Shallow to Dadant deep. Just measure it off of a deep frame.

>Also how many wires 5 or 6?

The ones I got from Western Bee are done like they INTENDED for it to be 5 and then didn't drill the top hole. So the first gap is bigger but there is one hole dead center from top to bottom and two below that and one above.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

The shoulder length is different on different supplier's end bars. Didn't Brother Adam use a pin or peg for spacing ? 

I think Western just used their Langstroth end bar driller on their frames, therefore on hole is missing at the bottom. I just wired them up and the bees never complained or noticed, even the Buckfast bees.


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Yes. I think Br. Adam use hobnail and eyelet screws. I will have to look at this pics. I think I will use Manleys style frames in the supers. They are similar to hoffman but instead of tapering they just go straight down (very easy to make). They are spaced wider probably at 1.5 inches so a 2x6 stock should work perfect (I'll play around here). The bottom bars are as wide as the top bars so when one uncaps its straight across with the knife. I think I will go with 6 wires in the deeps as sagging combs was one of the complaints of the dadant hive. Not to mention if I have to ever extract one of those big boys. With 4.9 cells it might need the extra support during extraction during the first year anyways.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Yes. I think Br. Adam use hobnail and eyelet screws. I will have to look at this pics.

Based on my experiece with DE hives and frames, I built some Dadant deep frames that are 3/4" wide top, bottom and ends. I used a staple gun with a spacer to keep the staple from going in too far to make the spacers on the sides. I put just one on each end on opposite sides. Like a letter "Z". So I need half as many spacer and they don't have to line up perfectly.

> I think I will use Manleys style frames in the supers. They are similar to hoffman but instead of tapering they just go straight down (very easy to make). They are spaced wider probably at 1.5 inches so a 2x6 stock should work perfect (I'll play around here). 

Don't they get glued all the way down the ends?

>The bottom bars are as wide as the top bars so when one uncaps its straight across with the knife.

The DE's are this way, but they are only 7/8" wide. The Dadant deep I made was 3/4" wide.

>I think I will go with 6 wires in the deeps as sagging combs was one of the complaints of the dadant hive. Not to mention if I have to ever extract one of those big boys. With 4.9 cells it might need the extra support during extraction during the first year anyways. 

I put a 1/16" steel welding rod across the middle of mine. I was hoping to build a long hive and harvest cut comb. That way I can cut above and below the rod.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have been searching for Dadant deep frames. So far they are all in Europe. Here are the links:

Dadant Deep Frames:

UK http://www.beebitz.com/frames.htm http://www.markman4.jo.btinternet.co.uk/Beekeeping/frames.htm 

Sweden http://www.swienty.com/pdf/Brutto-Eurozone.pdf


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Look at how long the support lugs are on that frame in the Markman site photo. Looks like the frame would not fit the inside dimensions of our 19 7/8" boxes made out of 3/4" stock, with proper bee space. Plus, what would the freight be on a heavy box of wood from Europe? I know it doubled the cost of my 19 3/4" square queen excluders. But they are beauties, so cost doesn't matter, Riiiiight ?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Look at how long the support lugs are on that frame in the Markman site photo. Looks like the frame would not fit the inside dimensions of our 19 7/8" boxes made out of 3/4" stock, with proper bee space.

It's probably a picture of some British standard frame.

>Plus, what would the freight be on a heavy box of wood from Europe? I know it doubled the cost of my 19 3/4" square queen excluders. But they are beauties, so cost doesn't matter, Riiiiight ?

Probably too much. Maybe you could negotiate to just buy the end bars?


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

OK guys,

I build my first dadant hive body. I used 1 3/8 hoffman bars. Well I can squeeze 13 frames in this box. Does this sound right to have so much room or did Dadant design this hive to have 1 1/2 inch spacing?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I build my first dadant hive body. I used 1 3/8 hoffman bars. Well I can squeeze 13 frames in this box. Does this sound right to have so much room or did Dadant design this hive to have 1 1/2 inch spacing?

I have heard that some people space them a little more apart, but with small cell I think 1 3/8 should be fine. 1 1/4" would work. How much space is there on the ouside edges? There should be about a quarter of an inch left between the hoffman spacer and the outside wall to leave enough room there.

13 extra deep frames of small cells is a lot of brood space.


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

>How much space is there on the ouside >edges? There should be about a quarter of >an inch left between the hoffman spacer and >the outside wall to leave enough room there.

MB I can fit exactly 13 frames with no extra space. Yet with 12 frames there is too much space (maybe 1/2 inch each side). Maybe I will go to 1 1/4 spacing.

That reminds me, what are width of the end bar using the Killion style frames?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The killion frames don't have a hoffman spacer and they just put in the nails. If I remember right they are standard 1 3/8" spacing. Part of Killion's theory is that the hoffman spaced ones keep getting wider and wider as propolis builds up between them.

I think leaving "too much" space on the outsides is not that bad. It lets them build some thick storage comb which is what the bees want to do somewhere anyway. You could also make a follower board for one end. Make it a qarter or a half an inch and it will take up some of the space. The ones that Doc Rogers put in the hives I bought from him are about a 3/8" wide top bar with a thin sheet of plastic on it. They are quite simple. I guess I just never quite understood the concept of them. Especially if I have to give up a frame for them. But it would work for a little extra space and then you have more room to move frames around.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I use 12 frames with follower boards made with 1/4" plywood or masonite. You have to be gentle with the lugs with both materials. I actually like using follower boards. We have copius amounts of brace/burr comb and propolis here, and a follower board is often much easier to get out than the frames. 

I made some five or six frame wide solid frames (boxes with lugs) out of plywood, for dividing hives when re-queening. I also have wide division screens for this purpose. That solved the problem of not having a double brood chamber for re-queening. I can use only the follower boards on the top divide as they won't have a work force for a long time. But if I don't use the filler box on the bottom, natural combs ahoy. What a mess.


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

OK I will make a follower board. I did my homework last night on the spacing for these hives. Apparently Dadant thought the spacing should be 1 1/2 instead of 1 3/8 as he thought it helped to prevent swarming and give better ventilation. I personally don't go for that at all. I was looking at brushy mountains metal queen excluders, apparently they are un bound. I'm thinking of making a wood frame to wrap around this to make it into a wood bound excluder.

>I use 12 frames with follower boards made >with 1/4" plywood or masonite. 

Are you using one or 2 followers per colony?

I am thinking I will make my follower boards go all the way to bottom board. To requeen I will use it to split the colony into 2 halves. One side queenless where the new queen is to be introduced. Upon acceptance, snuff the old girl, and put the follower/ divider back. A few screen boards would probably work well too. But I'd rather not lift them big boxes if I can avoid it









I think should I decide to make a number of these hives I will make some of these boxes into 4 way nucs with half MD combs like br. adam uses.


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

What type of feeders you guys using (or going to use) on these hives? My glass gallon jar feeders I don't think will be appropriate, especially if I have to make a big box to enclose it. Maybe a regular division board feeder or miller feeder?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My favorite feeder is a Rapid Feeder that goes over the hole on the inner cover. www.beeworks.com has them. That's probably what I'll use. But then I think feeding can be overrated sometimes.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Feeding? What is feeding? My bees feed themselves. Just make sure the front door is open and they fly off and collect their own food, nectar and pollen. It's dogs, cats and livestock you feed, not bees.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

But Frank, we don't live in the promised land of milk and honey!


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Frank there very often is snow on the ground when installing package bees here. With a split or nuc I can do as you propose as I feed honey anyways. But having no establish hives in dadant hives puts me at a loss to do this. Nor do I no anyone selling dadant sized nucs.

I wonder if the jumbo dadant could ever be popularized here in the US?


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Well I just wired my frames. I tried 3 different configurations to see what I like. All measurment s start at the top of the top bar and go down.

first try was spacing 1 3/4- 5 wires- too far apart for me

second try was 1 1/2- 6 wires- didn't like iteither

third try was 41mm- 6 wires- I have a winner!

When in doubt go metric







The rest of the world does


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Clayton, are you threading six continuously? You must be ambidexterous. I have a hard enough time with four even after three decades of practice. Did you get some deep foundation from Dadant?

I admit it, I do occasionally feed nucs and swarms drawing comb. The reason I was being sarcastic, is because we only get 20 inches of rain here, no snow, the temps rarely go below 40, the bees probably fly 350 days a year, our flow of Eucalyptus starts at Halloween, speeds up March thru June, is a bit slow in July and August, but is OK in Sept. and Oct. Last year a few hive made a medium of surplus Oct. thru Feb. If there was still open land available here, it would be the land of milk and honey for commercial beekeeping.

One more suggestion: my jumbo inner covers have a very wide upper lip. With those I can use Langstroth size supers above the inner cover for jar feeding covers. For supering with Langstroth supers, I just cover the gap with a board. I only have 31 wide mediums for my 12 jumbos, so I always have to finish the season with Langstroth supers on top. I have a few Cobana jumbo supers and the jumbo hives work on them great.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I posted a picture of my apiary in 2002, in the Yahoo group "Buckfast Beekeepers", with several of my jumbo hives stacked up with a great crop. One did 400 pounds. The jumbos regularly stack up right along or better than the Langstroths, even though they are wider and therefore have more honey. I there a place to post pictures at Beesource ?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/buckfastbeekeepers/


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

odfrank,

>Clayton, are you threading six >continuously? You must be ambidexterous. I >have a hard enough time with four even >after three decades of practice. Did you >get some deep foundation from Dadant?

Yes, continuously. I gotta admit it is a little tougher than wiring Lang hives. I can wire the 4 wires for a lang deep pretty well. But the 6 wires in these jumbo frames is a bit more challenging. But I can deal with that knowing that its a single brood chamber and I have to only do 12 frames per colony instead of the normal 30 frames I have to do with my lang hives with my 3 deep box setup.

Do you have bee escapes built for these hives? How do you harvest?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you have bee escapes built for these hives? How do you harvest?

I have a regular triangular bee escape with an board added on to the side to make it wide enough. Haven't used it on this yet, but have used it on a DE hive which is also square. The DE hive also required a stip of plywood on each end to make it shorter.


----------



## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

odfrank,


>Did you get some deep foundation from Dadant?

Naw, I think I will make my own (4.9mm). I hope my dipping vat is wide enough or I'll have to get creative.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have used a gas blower since I started. Obnoxiously noisy but effective. A bit problematic late in the season after robbing has started. I bought a triangular escape board last year and used it on some hives in a dense residential neighorhood. Worked great and plan to make or buy a few more. Want to make the same kind on my extracting room windows. Future projects #974b and #975


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Well, so far these are my results with the Dadant Deep hive. I started them in a five frame nuc. I also started another package at the same time in a five frame medium nuc. I have expanded as necessary since and the Dadant deep has filled 10 frames and the medium has also filled 10 frames. Which puts the Dadant deep hive at about twice the sucess of the medium one. Of course this is only a sample of one of each size and hardly scientific in the long run, but I'm impressed so far. Especially when you consider I put small cell plastic in the Dadant deep and I have cut and scraped and thrown away a good portion of their work. I gave up and the plastic and am putting foundationless frame in instead.

Despite all of that they have still filled twice as much spaces.

I moved them into a 22 frame box today. It's the length of two 10 frame boxes (32 1/2")


----------



## dburgess (Jun 26, 2002)

Where can I find some deep foundation for the dadant jumbo deep frames???
In small cell.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Where can I find some deep foundation for the dadant jumbo deep frames???
In small cell.

You can't find ANY foundation in Dadant Deeps in the US that I know of. The small cell comes in any size you want as long as it's standard deeps.







I just leave the 2" gap at the bottom or use a triangular comb guide all the way around and a steel rod in the center for support.

BTW my double wide (32 1/2" 22 frame) Dadant deep hive swarmed before it filled it past frame 15. I was hoping it would do better than my other horizontal hives at not swarming. But not so far. It started as a 2# package in mid April and filled 15 frames and swarmed on Saturday. Not bad for three months work.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Dadant and Swienty have normal cell size foundation for jumbo deep frames. With samll cell you'll have to splice or leave a gap for the bees to complete. I would splice, or you might end up with a lot of drome comb.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

"I gave up on the plastic and am putting foundationless frame in instead."

Michael, I TOLD YOU SO. Why doesn't anybody ever listen to me? Thirty years you've been keeping bees and still wasting your and your bees time with plastic foundations. Tsk tsk...


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I never had that much problem with Rite Cell or Plasti Cell or DuraComb. It's that they aren't regressed and they can't rework plastic. But that's why thei don't like plastic in general, I think, because they can't rework it.


----------



## dburgess (Jun 26, 2002)

odfrank, 

Are you suggesting not using any foundation
or just not using plastic foundation?

And are you using the foundationless frames
with the regressed bees?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I am using foundationless frames and regressing bees. Frank can explain what he's doing, but I'm pretty sure it's wood, wax and wire. The three "W"s.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Like Michael said, wax wood and wire. I have used several plastics over 35 years of beekeeping and found all of them inferior to wax. I use vertical wired with four horizontal wires. My small cells have not thrived. I have used Brother Adam size hives since 1978, and now have most of my hives on Jumbo frames, but many in Lang dimension boxes.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I did some foundationless Dadant Deeps. They were an angled top bar, angled pieces on the end bars, an angled piece on the bottom bar and a 1/16" welding rod horizontally at the halfway point.

The welding rod worked well and didn't disrupt their cell building hardly at all and provided a lot of support.

The side angled pieces worked well and cause good solid attachment pretty much from top to bottom.

The bottom, angled piece was ignored by the bees and the comb was not attached to the bottom at all.

They worked well, but I won't bother with the bottom piece next time.


----------



## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

MB and others, since you have to make so much of this equip yourself would it not be easy to make 2 supers to cover the length. I made several 6 frame nucs because the wood was already the right size. 10 frames with a little extra space(since this is a super) with the width of the 2 boards in the middle should work out to split the difference. Just a thought as I am thinking about using 2 1/2 supers on my langs because of weight. I may make some 8 frame boxes in medium size, but then again I worry that 3 medium 8 frames may be to small to get them thru winter.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Since I'm wanting a long hive anyway and all the same size is nice, I was thinking of some five frame Dadant Deep nucs or even four frame. But so far, I'll probably just put a regular medium super on instead.


----------

