# What is going on with this?



## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

This is the continuation of the Thread "Dark comb and no eggs."
I am trying to load a bunch of pictures but only have 2 so far. (maybe thats all it will let me load?)Ill post this and try and add more.
I see some lave that looks half eaten, in the cell off to one side. A few caps punctured and I did see 1 deformed wing for sure but I am not sure what health wings look like. 
This is going on on about about 4 sides of frames. The others seem to look fine. (This is 2 deeps)
I had a high mite count of 150 on a sticky board in 24 hours. 
I started mite treatment with Hopguard a few days ago.
I know now that I fed them too much (sugar and pollen sub) and so there wasn't much room left to lay.
This hive started as a purchased 5 frame Nuc back in June. That is when I started beekeeping.


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)




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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

I should add can I stop this and if so how?

Thanks a lot you folks are great.
Dennis


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## Hawkster (Apr 16, 2010)

If I were a betting man I would bet you have some EFB going on there. I would have an experienced beekeeper take a look if possible


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I tend to agree Hawkster.

Flowerplanter should be thrilled.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

My vote would be EFB. It is treatable. Do a search for treatment protocols. Do not mess around you need to get it under control while you still have enough nurse bees to feed healthy brood, and to clean up the diseased brood.
Good Luck 
Dave


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

As I said in your first post, now seeing your new pictures, this is a TEXT BOOK CASE of EFB.

Any delay in treatment will greatly impact the survival of this hive!!!

I am still interested in the questions I asked from your first thread?

Are these packaged bees? 

Did you feed HBH or essential oils?



I will help you beat this.

Get a digital small scale from ebay or amazon around $6

Buy Terramycin. Duramycin is the same active ingredents (oxy-tetracycline – HCl)

"Randy Oliver said Duramycin was just as good. It was available in a $10 packet from the farm supply."

Mixing and application instructions:
http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/mgmt/antibiotics.htm

I would do both powder dusting as shown in link and feed syrup to start. 
Use your scale, you want 200mg of active ingredient per 2 quarts of syrup, and 200mg of active ingredient per 1 oz powder sugar dusting per deep.

You will see results in less than a week (about the same time you do the second treatment) empty cells will be filled with nice patch of white c larva of the same age side by side. Then you will know treatment is working. 

Keep a very close eye on your other hives, EFB loves company.


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

FlowerPlanter said:


> As I said in your first post, now seeing your new pictures, this is a TEXT BOOK CASE of EFB.
> 
> Any delay in treatment will greatly impact the survival of this hive!!!
> 
> ...


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It looks like PMS to me, not sure if I'd cry foulbrood just yet, but EFB can be a symptom of PMS.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> EFB can be a symptom of PMS.


This would be my thinking. I think in an earlier thread the op stated that he had a substantial mite drop. I consistently find these sort of symptoms, this late in the season in colonies with high mite infestations and when the symptoms are as overt as those in the photos....most mite treatments are too late to be effective and indeed, may drive the colony over the edge. Just my opinion.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>They were started from a Nuc I got from a very well know queen breeder breeding stock
When did you get the nuc? Did you look at your brood pattern then? Do you have old pictures of the brood?

I would talk with your breeder. Ask what he does about EFB. If he has had any...
you could have caught it from somewhere else, a failing hive in your area, even I believe a strong hive may be able to fight it at the same time as pass it to a smaller weaker hive.

The reason I asked about packages and HBH, it seems that many of EFB cases and suspected cases on beesource come from packages in the spring. And of those some were fed HBH or essential oils. Which I know for a FACT will make your bees complete defenseless against EFB. So good on you for not using it. If you had there would be no doubt that all your hives would have it.

http://www.ohiostatebeekeepers.org/resources/ohio-fact-sheets/parasitic-mite-syndrome-pms/
http://beeinformed.org/2013/10/parasitic-mite-syndrome-pms/

I know very little about PMS. 
But from the first link above "3. Evacuation of hive by crawling adult bees." I have not seen that with EFB other than the one here and there that you have with all hives. 
"5.Scales observed, but are not brittle and difficult to remove like AFB" Have not noticed any scales with EFB. Bees clean out the dead and recycle contaminated bee milk. Cause the disease to spread even faster.

http://beeinformed.org/2013/04/european-foulbrood-efb-identification/

I do know that your pictures look just like EFB that I have seen and are identical to those online. If want you have continues much longer the hive has no chance. As it is now the chance for winter survival is greatly reduced. 

>I had a high mite count of 150 on a sticky board in 24 hours. 
>I started mite treatment with Hopguard a few days ago.

Your mite count after you treated? Mite counts go up quite a bit in the fall. Is this a double or a single, 10 frame?

>I guess the question is do young larvae look healthy in Efb? 
Yes until they die, or are about to die the might have some color to them (as seen in the EFB link above)

With EFB you have a patch of eggs that hatches in 3 days, some larva die between 3-8 days before they are capped, the queen will come back through and lay in those empty cells. and this pattern repeats. You end up with a spotty capped with mixed open brood of all different aged larva intermingled. The bee milk is recycled, as the disease gets so bad there are fewer and fewer larva being capped. Reduced work force will lead to reduced eggs from the queen. They will either abscond are stay and dwindle until they are robbed out or beetles move in.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=7472

Here is how to send sample for testing, it's free. 

It could take two weeks to get the results. 

I would not wait on the results to treat.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Looks like PMS to me. We need to know the mite levels. Have you sampled for mites? What are the mite levels? EFB is rare, I have seen many cases of PMS this weekend looking through other folks' hives. In our area (NY) if you don't treat for mites in August you get PMS in September. Your mileage may vary


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## Hawkster (Apr 16, 2010)

Mann lake sells an efb test and ship quickly


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

peterloringborst said:


> Your mileage may vary


I did not get to a number of my hives until the past week.....my mileage did not vary. My bees and I will pay dearly.


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

Mileage? I am not sure what you mean. They are in my backyard outside my guest bedroom. Mileage from other gives? I live in a small city. I doubt there are many hives within city limits.


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

150 mites dropped in 24 hours. 2 deep boxes covering 12 frames. I'll due sugar roll tests in the future. My feelings are mites where very high since I read you should treat if mites are over 40 or 50 in 24 hours. They are being hop guarded now.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

kayakbiker said:


> 150 mites dropped in 24 hours. 2 deep boxes covering 12 frames. I'll due sugar roll tests in the future. My feelings are mites where very high since I read you should treat if mites are over 40 or 50 in 24 hours. They are being hop guarded now.


Many authorities consider 40 to be much too high a treatment threshold. "your mileage may vary" is a polite way of saying, try it yourself if you dont believe my experience applies to your situation. I prefer to treat at very low levels rather than try to see how much pestilence my bees can survive.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

kayakbiker said:


> Mileage? I am not sure what you mean. They are in my backyard outside my guest bedroom. Mileage from other gives? I live in a small city. I doubt there are many hives within city limits.


" In our area (NY) if you don't treat for mites in August you get PMS in September. Your mileage may vary"
Beekeeping is local so optimum treatment time and the time the result of not treating shows up depends on your location.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Many authorities consider 40 to be much too high a treatment threshold. "your mileage may vary" is a polite way of saying, try it yourself if you dont believe my experience applies to your situation. I prefer to treat at very low levels rather than try to see how much pestilence my bees can survive.


Exactly. Same here. 

By the way, in forty years, I have seen two cases of EFB, confirmed by Beltsville. One was back in the 1970s, and I recognized it right away. The other was last fall and it was in conjunction with a fatal case of PMS. This hive had everything: it was crawling with mites, PMS type rotten brood, and some EFB symptoms. We burned the whole thing up as it was _way past the point of no return _and there was so much "pestilence" (good word for it!) -- that it would be stupid to keep the frames and put healthy bees onto them.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

No expert on EFB, but I believe that I've seen it before. Isn't it possible that the massive mite infestation is causing large stress leading to EFB? We hear all the time that EFB is a stress disease. Isn't this a likely scenario?


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

FlowerPlanter can you respond to this HBH thought: "The reason I asked about packages and HBH, it seems that many of EFB cases and suspected cases on beesource come from packages in the spring. And of those some were fed HBH or essential oils. Which I know for a FACT will make your bees complete defenseless against EFB. So good on you for not using it. If you had there would be no doubt that all your hives would have it." 

I have not heard that before and would be interested in any additional links that mention that.


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

AstroBee said:


> No expert on EFB, but I believe that I've seen it before. Isn't it possible that the massive mite infestation is causing large stress leading to EFB? We hear all the time that EFB is a stress disease. Isn't this a likely scenario?


 So the questions now are 
#1 should I treat for EfB even though it could just be PMS and I cant seem to find out for sure without sending in samples and waiting 2weeks? Winter is coming time is short!

#2 Can I treat for EFB at the same time I am treating for the mites? (remember I put that hop guard on a week ago.) I am assuming that should be no big deal?

#3 Or assume that the mite treatments and time will cure the issue?

I am leaning toward getting EFB meds today unless a you folks say different.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> #3 Or assume that the mite treatments and time will cure the issue?


I would not assume anything. I would treat for mites ASAP and hope for the best. Adding terramycin into the mix at this point is probably a good idea, if you are so inclined. 

It might clear up by itself. Brood rearing is coming to an end and if the hive survives, they should be able to clean out that crap. The hive may be already too badly weakened, can't tell without being there.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

If it's PMS it's been treated for mites 3 days ago with hopgaurd, brood pattern should start to get better. Right? There should be more new larva now?

If it's EFB, It's getting worse every day. It's spreading to other hives as we speak (drifters, drones, robbing attempts...) If nothing is done this hive will fail within a month, then get robbed and spread. If treated within a week there will be lots of new larva in tight patches.

Seems like a no brainer to me.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

FlowerPlanter said:


> If it's PMS it's been treated for mites 3 days ago with hopgaurd, brood pattern should start to get better. Right? There should be more new larva now?
> Seems like a no brainer to me.


It isn't that simple. Looking at the brood patterns...half or more of the developing brood didn't survive to emerge. What do you think that says about those that did survive? Do you think they'll have normal vigor....or will they be sickly? You have a colony expending resources to produce durable overwintering bees but instead are only getting half of the numbers needed....and that half aren't well. Treating with Hopguard three days ago isn't going to change that. For a treatment to be reliably successful you must apply it before you see the symptoms. Which is one reason I strongly suggest mite testing. 
Will those bees survive? Maybe.....but I wouldn't want to bet on it.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>Astro - but I believe that I've seen it before. Isn't it possible that the massive mite infestation is causing large stress leading to EFB? We hear all the time that EFB is a stress disease. Isn't this a likely scenario? 
Yes I believe so, mites always make things worse. This link says you can have both.
http://beeinformed.org/2013/04/european-foulbrood-efb-identification/

Brandy
Packaged bee study:
http://triscience.com/
"Transmission of European foul brood disease by package bees"
"In April 1964, 15 1-kg. packages of honeybees shaken from colonies infected with European foul brood and 15 1-kg. packages shaken from non-infected colonies were transported 1300 km, and installed in sterile equipment with new frames and foundation. All colonies derived from infected colonies developed E.F.B., whereas all those derived from non-infected colonies remained healthy. The disease did not appear until 5 wks. after packages were hived, and therapeutics given as soon as packages are installed should prevent build-up of infection to a level that causes disease."

From my own observations here on beesource there have been lots of EFB cases and suspected cases. quite a few were packages. Many of those were given HBH to the feed.

MB has posted many links (studies) numerous times to the benefits of probiotics to include fighting EFB, AFB, nosema... And EOs and kill these probiotics. There are many threads about this if you need help finding them let me know.

I had seen with my own eyes hives that were gives EO's got EFB that spread like fire to ever single hive. Other yards that did not get EOs had a few cases of EFB but did not spread anywhere near as bad. Even within the hive it was far more devastating to the hives give EOs.

kayakbiker
>1 should I treat for EfB even though it could just be PMS and I cant seem to find out for sure without sending in samples and waiting 2weeks? Winter is coming time is short!
Yes I would, also the like above suggests you can have both at the same time.

#2 Can I treat for EFB at the same time I am treating for the mites?
Yes and I would pay for fast shipping. 

Also take note of your brood patern before you treat then a week later. Post you results.


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

beemandan said:


> It isn't that simple. Looking at the brood patterns...half or more of the developing brood didn't survive to emerge. What do you think that says about those that did survive? Do you think they'll have normal vigor....or will they be sickly? You have a colony expending resources to produce durable overwintering bees but instead are only getting half of the numbers needed....and that half aren't well. Treating with Hopguard three days ago isn't going to change that. For a treatment to be reliably successful you must apply it before you see the symptoms. Which is one reason I strongly suggest mite testing.
> Will those bees survive? Maybe.....but I wouldn't want to bet on it.


Yes I see that now. This is my 4rd month beekeeping. I started with 2 hives,1 lang 1 warre. The Warre hive (my wife calls "Worry Hive" swarmed twice a couple weeks apart! Cat was out of the bag that I had bees in my back yard in a neighborhood. (That was exciting and unexpected. All the neighbors where cool though.) I caught them both. Had to buy and make gear for 5 hives. Then combined the swarms. All this took tons of research and time. Then when I got around to learning that it was time to check for mites and treat, it was late. When I was in the hive ready to do the sugar roll test on my happy Lang bees, that was when I realized they had the problem. 
This had been at least a $1500 investment(Id hate to actually add it up), a ton of time and research. I work 60 hours a week at my day job and have tons of stuff going on after work. I am keeping up with this (well I guess not) but I am enjoying it. I wanted bees for years. It just was way more effort and $ than what I was expecting. I am really looking forward to winter and for the bees to relax in their cozy ball! This way I can educate myself some more so Ill be ready for next year. This has been a crazy hobby!!!

Thanks a lot everyone who commented you have been very very helpful. Ill get some meds today and treat the poor gals. Ill keep you posted.

Dennis

PS Anyone want a Warre (Worry) hive? hahahehe 
No it was me who caused the swarming I am sure. Learning is good!!!


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> MB has posted many links (studies) numerous times to the benefits of probiotics to include fighting EFB, AFB, nosema


This is nonsense. Probiotics have not been proven to have any benefits in bees.


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

It is hard enough to learn all this stuff and everyone has a different opinion. But then everything is abbreviated. MB, HBH, EFD, AFB, PMS, FB ......... I hate acronyms!


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

kayakbiker said:


> It is hard enough to learn all this stuff and everyone has a different opinion. But then everything is abbreviated. MB, HBH, EFD, AFB, PMS, FB ......... I hate acronyms!


HBH = Honey Bee Healthy, a product of dubious merit
AFB = American Foulbrood, a severe bacterial infection
EFB = European Foulbrood, was considered easily treatable, may have recently mutated
PMS = Parasitic Mite Syndrome, the secondary effects of mite infestation: dead brood, deformed bees, etc.
FB = FaceBook, a modern combination of chat group, advertising platform, lonely hearts club, etc.
MB = Marlon Brando, great as a young actor, got fat and lazy


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Two corrections

HBH = Honey Bee Healthy, a poison that is sold as a snake oil for bees

MB = Michael Bush right here on bee source (his book listed in the right margin)


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

peterloringborst said:


> This is nonsense. Probiotics have not been proven to have any benefits in bees.


a google search for bee probiotics is never ending...

http://www.futurity.org/honey-bees-stay-healthy-in-probiotic-hives/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15279248

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...esponse_in_the_honey_bee_(Hymenoptera_Apidae)


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

FlowerPlanter: Not sure of your link, doesn't seem to go anywhere??? 
Also, what you list for a study in 1964 would predate Honey B Healthy I believe, so not much to go by there. Packaged bee study:
http://triscience.com/
"Transmission of European foul brood disease by package bees"
"In April 1964, 15 1-kg. packages of honeybees shaken from colonies infected with European foul brood and 15 1-kg. packages shaken from non-infected colonies were transported 1300 km, and installed in sterile equipment with new frames and foundation. All colonies derived from infected colonies developed E.F.B., whereas all those derived from non-infected colonies remained healthy. The disease did not appear until 5 wks. after packages were hived, and therapeutics given as soon as packages are installed should prevent build-up of infection to a level that causes disease."

Appreciate any updates...


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> The particular Bifidobacterium organisms that were identified by this study may provide excellent probiotic activity for honey bees


Wonderful. They "may" provide probiotic activity. That's proof of -- what? Did you even read those papers? Or just the headlines? It's OK, though. The guys that write headlines seldom read the articles either.



> It also is proposed that nonpathogenic bacteria can be used as a probiotic to enhance honey bee immunity


Right. People have been "proposing" this for years. Again, proof of -- ???


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

Ok they are treated. Dusted and have some syrup medicine to drink.
The manufacture quit making Duramycin brand but I guess they just call it what it is Oxy Terramycin for $6 at the Farm store.

Ill post the results when I see them.
Thanks again for everyones help.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

The product you are using is not labeled for bees. It is illegal to treat bees with products that are not labeled for use on bees.

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary...lDrugProducts/FOIADrugSummaries/ucm118325.htm

Compare with:

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary...lDrugProducts/FOIADrugSummaries/ucm049520.htm

This product is approved for use on honey bees

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/spl/d...52c2/eb3b6a04-da2a-43c0-93b6-bcc1d2e252c2.xml


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

*kayakbiker*
Glad you got them treated so quick, look forward to seeing the results.

*peter*
Probiotics:
"Bacterial probiotics induce an immune response in the honey bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15279248

"Lactic acid bacteria in honey bees can prevent foulbrood"
http://www.slu.se/en/collaborative-...bacteria-in-honey-bees-can-prevent-foulbrood/

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188
"We have demonstrated by both in vitro and in vivo studies that the LAB microbiota in A. mellifera inhibit one important honeybee pathogen, the bacterial brood pathogen Paenibacillus larvae that is the cause of the brood disease American foulbrood (AFB)"
"The LAB microbiota partly inhibited the bee pathogen M. plutonius in vivo (Figure 4) and totally in vitro, L. kunkeei and the thirteen LAB together showed the best inhibition properties."
"Thus, our results strongly suggest that LAB linked to the honeybee crop have important implications for honeybee pathology, particularly for bacterial brood diseases such as AFB and EFB."

Healther longer lived bees fed probiotics:
"IMPROVEMENT OF THE COMPOSITION OF POLLEN SUBSTITUTE FOR HONEY BEE (Apis mellifera L.), THROUGH IMPLEMENTATION OF PROBIOTIC PREPARATIONS" 
"Probiotics added to the substitute were also found to stimulate the growth of fat body"
"The probiotic preparations applied in the study failed to significantly contribute to the increase in feed intake, but affected the decrease in death rate of bees.

An old post from MB (Michael Bush) lots of probiotics studies
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...as-defense-against-nosema&p=297751#post297751

Symbeeotic:
"A Lund University research team has made an astounding discovery - bees have a battery of healthy bacteria in their honey stomach that protects them. Giving these bacteria back to bees boosts their natural immune system, helping them fight disease."

*Bandy*
It looks like triscience moved or deleted it, a google search of the title found:
"http://eurekamag.com/research/026/005/026005215.php"

Antimicrobial properties of essential oils:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12678685

http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/content/47/5/565.full

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0962456201800485

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial

EOs used for pesticides:
http://www.beyondpesticides.org/infoservices/pesticidefactsheets/leasttoxic/essential.php

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378112708006166


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Sorry, I was hoping to "cut to the chase" to see where HBH leads to EFB as you claimed above. Seems it depends on the needs of the beekeeper whether they explore some of it's (HBH) uses to find it useful or not. 

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/2010/drench 2010.pdf 

Will explore the other links in how it affects EFB as was mentioned...


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## kayakbiker (Sep 3, 2014)

peterloringborst said:


> The product you are using is not labeled for bees. It is illegal to treat bees with products that are not labeled for use on bees.
> 
> http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary...lDrugProducts/FOIADrugSummaries/ucm118325.htm
> 
> ...


Ok good to know, I didn't know that. But it is a little late now. But if I did know that, would I drive 1.5 hours to the bee store and 1.5 hours back home to pick it up? Or order it on line and wait a week? I don't know, I am thinking that I might have just gone to the farm store and see if there was anything there I could use.

THIS IS WHAT I HAVE LEARNED not only do bee people have different opinions but they have strong opinions. Its like politics, it sucks! I have 2 examples besides this thread. 2 different guys I got my bees from, I told them I have a Langstroth hive and a Warre hive. They both basically tell me that "He knows nothing about the that Inferior sub standard hive." I am new to this but how do they know a Warre is inferior and substandard if he knows nothing about it? I have seen this attitude a lot regarding hives other than Langstroth. Its very strange. Its like saying Softball is not a sport, Baseball is the game. "Im sorry I cant talk to you about your alternative venture you call Softball I know nothing about it. You really should stick to Baseball."

Example #2 I started a forum asking "If bees are bringing in pollen does that mean they have a queen?" I got mixed answers. Ok, most said no but I did have some yes's.

So if I posted on this site "How do I prepare a chicken meal?" I would have people say that baked is the best and only way. Others would say fried is it and baked is not correct. Then If someone said cooked leftover chicken is great for for sandwiches. Then someone would debate that and tell us that that is WRONG and post links to Salmonella! Hahaehehe see what I mean? Very crazy and bazar!


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Regarding probiotics, Forsgren_ et al _write



> We have demonstrated by both in vitro and in vivo studies that the LAB microbiota in A. mellifera inhibit one important honeybee pathogen, the bacterial brood pathogen Paenibacillus larvae that is the cause of the brood disease American foulbrood (AFB)


This is simply not the same as proof that it works consistently in the field nor is it even remotely like a treatment recommendation. They are stating it "inhibits AFB" -- not that it prevents it nor cures it. They don't give any information on how or if this might be developed into a viable treatment regimen. Until somebody shows that it _consistently works_, and gets approval to use it on bees _for this purpose_, the whole thing is still in the realm of _wishful thinking._


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Kayakbiker dont dismay about the variation you have seen in opinions; since they dont *need* to be based on facts, that is not surprising. Establishing facts is expensive! 

Since copper bracelets are claimed to cure almost anything, why dont you make some little copper hoops to hang centered over the hive entrance so the bees have to pass through. This will inhibit the bad things and enhance the good! There, you read it on the internet!


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

crofter; since you presented the copper ring idea a couple of hours ago some experts from the lower great plains with years of beekeeping experience are publishing an e-book clearly demonstrating the advantages of copper ring beekeeping. by this time next year it may show up as a top googly search. in a year and a half it will be on every beginning, natural organic, small cell-foundationless, beekeepers must do list to get started. good move see what you are starting? as you say, it is on the internet.... it must be true.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

*Peter*
>They are stating it "inhibits AFB" -- not that it prevents it nor cures it.
Bee can clean up mild case of AFB on their own (have no studes but have read it here a million times). EFB is very common in early spring and most bees recover on their own when the flow starts. Most of the disease are like that. There is a point where the diseases in the hive are held in check. 
MB says there is AFB in all hives.
If there are no LAB to inhibit these disease whats going to happen?

>This is simply not the same as proof that it works consistently in the field nor is it even remotely like a treatment recommendation.
>They don't give any information on how or if this might be developed into a viable treatment regimen.
No not in that study. But Symbeeotic made a product for that purpose. Because of studies on LAB in bees.

>the whole thing is still in the realm of wishful thinking.
Maybe but if LAB inhibits even a little AFB, EFB or nosema why would you give it to your bees if could damage any LAB? So they can drink syrup faster?

Now let’s put a little different spin on it.
What proof do you have that HBH does anything?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Bee can clean up mild case of AFB on their own (have no studes but have read it here a million times).


You can repeat a falsehood a million times and it still isn't true. Get a grip.



> What proof do you have that HBH does anything?


None, that's I why I don't use it and I don't recommend it. Look, I don't belong to the treatment free club, but I don't believe in putting stuff in hives that _you don't know what it does._ 

And no, just because MB or anyone else gives a ringing testimonial, that isn't proof. Any more than some sports star endorsing a product makes it a good one.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

mathesonequip said:


> crofter; since you presented the copper ring idea a couple of hours ago some experts.... clearly demonstrating the advantages of copper ring beekeeping. by this time next year it may show up as a top googly search. in a year and a half it will be on every...it must be true.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

PLB did not recommend or endorse Honey-B-Healthy. This is what he said:



peterloringborst said:


> HBH = Honey Bee Healthy, a product of dubious merit


"Dubious merit" is a polite way of saying that you don't believe the claims of the product promoter.



> *dubious : du·bi·ous*
> 
> not to be relied upon; suspect.
> "extremely dubious assumptions"
> synonyms:	suspicious, suspect, untrustworthy, unreliable, questionable;


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

:applause::applause::applause:jwchestnut: where can I get these at a huge discount. this must be exactly what crofter so strongly advocates.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

A person needs to be very careful in judging literature that often masquerades as scientific research. Very often it is merely suggestive propaganda to create hits for websites. Some quoted, seemingly prestigious sources are just that; They seem! There are lots of trigger words in many such articles that grab at your emotions and attract search engines. Search engines are very willing to disgorge lists of them ranked on hits and the search history of the searching computer. It takes some skill and discrimination in searching to get past a lot of that garbage to fact based and documented research.

I dont think there is any shortcut to acquiring threshold knowledge that is necessary to fairly judge a lot of the information presented to us. Just because something is in print is no guarantee that it is factual or free of bias or agenda.

Frank


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

You might recall the published work of olofson/Vasquez (sp).

They documented a bloom of AFB infection that bloomed and dwindled.....without treatment and without clinical symptoms. 




peterloringborst said:


> You can repeat a falsehood a million times and it still isn't true. Get a grip.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Update
I got a message from kayakbiker and his hive made it through winter!

"The one hive you helped me with and I treated made it through the winter! I was in the hive yesterday, 20 frames of bees! A very strong hive. Now I am trying to make sure they don't swarm. If it isn't one thing its another. Thanks again for your help."


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