# What are some of your cost-saving methods?



## gone2seed

I will just take your outer and inner cover as an example.The following assumes you have at least a cheap table saw.
I cut a plywood cover and rip sides out of a 2x4 for my telescoping outer cover.Then cover this with aluminum flashing.These are not as pretty as factory covers but just as servicible.Presto...telescoping cover for about 5 bucks.
I cut the plywood hive size for the inner cover and rip 3/8 inch pieces for the rims both sides.
I then cut a hole to fit mason jar for feeding.This gives you an inner cover that doubles for feeding.The only small drawback is that the bees will burr comb up the feed hole.Not a big deal.
You also have room with this inner cover to put a shb cd case trap top and bottom.


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## Mr.Beeman

I build everything from scratch with scrap wood leftover from building projects.. YES even the frames.

Works well for me and gives me some time off from the hectic pace of life.


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## twgreen3

I build as much as I can myself including medium boxes and my extract. Something like frames and foundation I still buy.


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## dfortune

Buy everything in bulk. Build what you can. I'm looking at buying a trailerload of white pine in bulk to build my own boxes, bottom boards, and lids. Its a fraction of the price. I dont use inner covers. Never had a problem without them. just one more thing to maintain and move. Im Also buying corn syrup by the 55 gal drum now. Preserve your wood the best you can to save money in the long run dont buy cheap paint. For larger equipment like extractor, buy what gives you the biggest bang for you buck. Spend a little extra on a bigger extractor even if you Dont need one that size yet cause you will eventually. Another excellent way to save big is buy everthing used if you can find hat you need . Only buy hives if you have to. Make splits and catch swarms.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

So far my biggest saving has been by splitting hives and making nucs. Package bees are expensive.


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## Splatt

*Build what you can*. If you don't want something fancy, a basic BB or SBB can be made for just a few dollars and a little time, no expert skills needed. Telescoping covers aren't much more difficult. The bee's don't care that your equipment was expensive. They're perfectly willing to live in an old tree, or a wall.
*Use what's on hand*. I had a little bit of stain and some _old_ spar urethane in the back of the cupboard. Guess how my feeder got finished? It looks first-class. I've been painting my boxes with paint I have on hand, as well. I built my robber screens out of stuff I had on the wood pile and in the shed. Literally cost me nothing but a couple of minutes.
*Look for cheap/free exterior paint* at the recycling exchange, Lowes, etc.


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## Aerindel

Foundationless. Migratory covers. Solid bottom boards.


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## BigGun

Here's an easy plan for a screened bottom board. http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/bottomboard/bottomboard.htm
Cost me around $15 bucks to build two. I had to buy all the materials new.

Inner covers are cheap to do. I had some scrap plywood so I just rip a one inch board that was scrap too. 

I built two telescoping covers for less than the price of one. Piece of ply with 1 x 4 sides. I got the metal from a air conditioning repair place. It was scrap too. Make sure this metal is pretty thin. The stuff I got was kinda heavy and my stapler/nailer would only go thru it about 75% of the time. http://www.michiganbees.org is where I got my plans from.

I've not tried boxes yet. They are high on my list. 
I will probably never try frames. They seem too complicated for my meager carpentry skills. But, I'm getting better.

Something I do plan on is making my own foundation. I don't see myself buying one of the mills though. Too expensive. I did see one recently on eBay for around $600. That's still a bunch of foundation to cover the cost. I think a mold is more doable. I just need lots more wax and time. I would like to mention a foundation mill as a project for our beekeeping club. They will probably look at me like I'm an alien evan though we all are pouring cash out to buy the stuff.

I was going to build an extractor until I found a used one on Craigslist for a fourth of its new cost. Plus it had a bunch of extras. 

I'm building a 12 volt oxalic vaporizer that won't cost more than $20 and most of that was for the glow plug. 

Do I need to say I like to build stuff?


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## BayHighlandBees

make your own migratory covers from leftover plywood. It's a no brainer and if you go with the right type of plan you don't even need to cut it with precise cuts (i.e. have a table saw)


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## EastSideBuzz

Pick a different hobby like rock collecting.


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## Michael Palmer

First, make you own equipment. I get 1x12, planed, kiln dried white pine for $.30/bdft. I can make a single...bottom, box, inner, outer, for less than $20 US. 

Second, don't manage a large apiary as you do a small. It takes practice and self control, but you have to learn how to diagnose/evaluate a colony and move on to the next. 

Third, you need a good management plan to, for instance...to stop swarming preparations before they starts. Think not getting behind on your bee work. Playing catch-up takes more hours of work than proper, timely management.


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## mmiller

Aerindel said:


> Foundationless. Migratory covers. Solid bottom boards.


that along with wintering my own nucs makes for some huge savings.


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## FlowerPlanter

Look at your mite treatment costs, commercial treatments can be expensive.
Essential oils, oxalic acid, thymol can be effective cheap alternatives. 

Make what you can. Even buying new premium wood will still you a bundle.

Splits and swarm traps = Free bees.


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## Intheswamp

My best project so far....modding my screened bottom boards for about $6 to turn them into nice SHB oil-tray traps... Simple oil tray mod for sbb's...

Ed


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## Beregondo

I make boxes and migratory covers from Advantech.
It's less expensive than plywood, and very water resistant.
Inner covers are only used for jar feeders, and made of whatever is at hand.

Bottom boards are either Advantech or 1/2" ext. Ply, w/ 3/8" shim around the edge, painted.

Increase is made by aggressive splitting, using my best looking swarm cells, a few bought in queens, and learning to graft.

Foundationless frames and plastic frames --- in order to save time/money in assembling and no foundation to purchase. Foundationless are put only between nice drawn frames to prevent cross comb/fat comb that can occur if you put several undrawn foundationless frames together.


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## Rooftop

Michael,
Where are you finding kiln dried at 1x12 at $.30bdft? That's a great price! I've considered making my own, but when I calculated my materials, my saving was only a couple of bucks.


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## cinch123

I buy cheapest-I-can-find lumber from Menards and build a Medium for about $3.50. Bottom boards and covers are made out of scap pine and CDX ply. Paint from the ReStore. Top cover roofs are salvanged aluminum from an old truck cap. I haven't attempted frames yet, but I get them for about $0.78 each from a local Amish guy. I am attempting foundationless and it seems to be working okay but the oldtimers give me crap about it. I think my biggest expense my first year has been sugar.


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## gone2seed

I use foundation in my brood boxes because I sell some single story hives.For the medium supers I use "starter strips to keep everything going in the right direction.For the strips I take a sheet of 
wired deep foundation and cut between the wires.Turn these horizontal and you won't have trouble with cross comb.One sheet of deep per 8 frame medium.


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## JRG13

When I first started I didn't think much about foundation, but now that I've bought a bit of it, I like the suggestion from gone and Beregondo. Turning one sheet into 4-8 starter strips or doing foundationless between two nice frames will save you a good bit of money starting up.


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## FlowerPlanter

I have used starter strips great if there is a flow and not so if the is not a flow if they don’t build comb right away they end up chewing all the starter strips out.

Foundationless are good if use in between two good frames and you are careful with them until they attach to bottom which can take awhile. 

Also are your bees regressed to 4.9 if not them they will build 5.1 first time coming from 5.4


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## Adam Foster Collins

Some of the things we have so far:

• Simple outer covers
• Foundationless
• foundation strips instead of full sheets
• Make your own gear
• Solid bottoms
• Catch swarms and raise bees
• alternative/low cost/reclaimed materials for hives


I'm thinking that having as few yards as possible has to help. Running to 5 yards of 5 has to cost more over the course of a year than one yard of 25...

Others?

Adam


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## westernbeekeeper

eastsidebuzz said:


> pick a different hobby like rock collecting.


not an option


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## mike haney

Somebody in PA has found the ultimate cost saver-steal someone else's hives&#55357;&#56865;


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## Paul McCarty

mike haney said:


> Somebody in PA has found the ultimate cost saver-steal someone else's hives&#55357;&#56865;


That only works until you get caught.

No, seriously - my costs saving methods are to use home-built hives (mostly long boxes, not regular langs - 3 or 4 boxes for price of one), foundationless frames, feral bees, and small things like discarded ice chests with lucite covers as wax melters, or wet dry bucket vacs modded to become a bee-vac. I also use an old water cooler bottle with the bottom cut off for a swarm catcher - it is mounted on a wooden closet rod. Top bar hives are pretty cheap too, until you count the labor involved in straightening out the comb. I use a lot of wood and materials from the dump - especially old corrugated tin from roofs. These become sun-shields and tin bee-hive roofs.

I do mostly treatment free with feral derived bees. Not sure you could do it with more domesticated bees. When I do treat - it is with soft treatments like smoking with Juniper bark, but I rarely need it. The bees seem to do all the work.

I do feed my starter hives, but I only buy sugar in bulk when it is on sale.

Word of warning - You must be very careful with feral removals, it can get pricey driving around and chasing bees. I do it mostly for the genetics these days. My increases have been mostly from aggressive splitting with a few feral removals tossed in for diversity.


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## gone2seed

Paul McCarty said:


> When I do treat - it is with soft treatments like smoking with Juniper bark, but I rarely need it.


Paul,would you please elaborate a little on the Juniper bark treatment?How and why it works.I have not heard of that one before and it sounds promising.I assume it has to do with the aromatics in the cedar.


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## Paul McCarty

It's a Mexican/Desert treatment for mites. You use some type of juniper - mostly the shag bark type, or you can use Creosote leaves/branches. You seal up the hive after dark and smoke like heck for 30 seconds or so. You do it again several more times over the course of a several week period. It seems to work and there is some scientific evidence from USDA validating it - not sure it is a sure thing though. The smoke appears to be toxic to the mites. I am sure it is to the bees too in larger doses. It is quite acrid.

I haven't seen any problems. I have only seen exactly 4 mites on my bees in 3 years. I used to smoke them every Spring and fall, but have not really done so lately - I have only done the smaller 1st year hives. I do brood breaks around midsummer too, so that might play a part, and my bees are mostly wild, so they groom each other. I have sat and watched them groom mites off each other. 

So take it or leave it, the smoking probably works to a point, but I am sure the other stuff factors in too. Also keep in mind the feral derived bees have mostly adapted to the mites. The sheer fact they exist at all shows this to be true. They should not need much help, that being the case. We don't have a huge beekeeping industry or hobby in this region, so most of the bees are truly wild. Not so in most other parts of the country.


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## sqkcrk

Try to do as much as one can in each yard to avoid additiuonal trips.


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## gone2seed

Thank you Paul.I will have to try that on a couple of hives next spring using our local juniper/cedar bark.I do realize we may be talking about different species of juniper.


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## Paul McCarty

The species in question is this one - http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=JUMO the One Seed Juniper. Others may work too, but this is the one traditionally used. 

This is the other plant used - http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=LATRT the Creosote Bush.

May not help you guys in Florida much. I hear there are some other plants that may have an affect too. These treatments were first popularized here by Les Crowder, ex NM head bee inspector.


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## MichaBees

Juniper, or "Taskate" in native Tarahumara is used for many diferent home remedies by the locals. The Creosote Bush or "Gobernadora", is used by the Tarahumara people to heal some types of cancer and many different things. We use both at the orphanages. The Creosote tea, is used to soak the children feet and that cures athletes foot. If you wait for it to bloom, you can make a paste with the flowers and cover bad bruises or cuts and they will not get infected and heal soon. The taskate is brewed into a strong tea and mixed with honey for respiratory problems.


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## gone2seed

The one we have is commonly called red cedar.This is it;
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=JUVIS


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## BeeGhost

I try to make everything I can, if it is cost effective. I do not factor in time because its a hobby and something I like doing. 

I make my own nucs using the Coates design.
I made my own extractor for a 1/6th of the cost of a new one.
I make my own tops, telescoping covers till now, migratory from here on out.
I make my own SBB, but after I use up the mesh I have I will go to solid bottom boards and see how that pans out.
I buy boxes but will start making my own soon as well.
I will keep buying frames because I can save on other things and just dont want to mess with them.
I collect swarms and split instead of buying bees. That is a huge savings and catching swarms also educates the public.

Since my start in beekeeping I have learned a lot from here, and from trial and error. I am learning where I can make short cuts, and where I shouldnt. I still love sitting and watching the bees, so that is why I am trying to get more efficient when working them so I can spend more time watching instead of working!


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## Michael Palmer

Other than raising my own stocks, which is of course huge, weighing hives to determine the correct amount to feed for winter...if they need feeding...has saved me big time.

I used to heft the back of my hives to estimate weight. That works okay, but trouble is, after a yard or two they all feel heavy. So, I always overfed...just to be sure. When feeding bees, it's just like feeding teenagers. They have hollow legs. I could easily overfeed my bees one, two, three or more gallons of 2:1. At $4/gallon, and almost 700 colonies...I could spend a fortune on sugar that the bees don't really need.


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## Ozone

With all due respect Mr. Palmer, where does the 'what they don't need' go? Into early spring feed, which is fuel to forage the nectar made into honey, that is accumulated at an earlier time? 

Or am I wrong as usual....


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## Acebird

Don't buy bees, don't feed and above all don't buy chemicals.


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## Michael Palmer

Nothing wrong, and a valid question...

Certainly, any extra feed is in the hive and can be used. But, if a colony requires say 80 pounds of stores to winter, and they have 100+, what's the point of feeding more just to be sure? That extra feed will be there in the spring as honey not consumed. It will then be there taking up space needed for colony expansion. But the greatest benefit in my apiary is in the savings on my feed bill. If they don't need it, I can't afford to feed it.by weighing every hive, I know. Also, it helps me in my breeder queen selection. I look for colonies in each apiary that make the best honey crop without needing any additional feed. If a colony produces 100 pounds of honey but has to be fed 50 pounds of sugar, isn't the real production of that colony actually only 50 pounds?

I don't routinely feed sugar to every colony. I try to manage my bees so they don't need extra feed in the fall. Usually, proper supering...not adding that extra super for goldenrod...and proper management and breeding, means heavy colonies going into winter.

Does that make sense Ozone?



Ozone said:


> With all due respect Mr. Palmer, where does the 'what they don't need' go? Into early spring feed, which is fuel to forage the nectar made into honey, that is accumulated at an earlier time?
> 
> Or am I wrong as usual....


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## Michael Palmer

Acebird said:


> .... don't feed....QUOTE]
> 
> How is a ban on feeding sugar in your apiary a cost-saving method? If the colony needs feed to survive until spring, and you don't, you have a dead colony that has to be replaced. And, figure the cost of the replacement bees and lost honey production next summer.
> 
> The correct method, in my opinion, would be to feed colonies that need feeding, and requeen them next season with queens raised from colonies that didn't need any additional feed.
> 
> Acebird, are you a beekeeper or a bee-haver?


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## Ian

Hi Adam, this is an excellent question and one that provides a lot of interesting responses. This question is probably what makes beekeeping so interesting and exciting. I had the exact same question about 10 years ago and I still am looking for the answer. Efficiency all lies in you operation set up, from you hive equipment set up to your honey house set up. 
Basically my answer is to look at or try a few different equipment approaches to manage your hives, find the one that seems to fit your management route-en, and then switch everything to that equipment management style. 
Once you have made a choice on equipment, DO NOT LOOK BACK. 
There is nothing more expensive than choosing one system, then wanting to change it out completely so research and test different approaches before you decide on a system.

So, Ill tell you what equipment design I settled on,

What I run is single and double brood hives, with a migratory lid on top, and a two hive bottom board pallet underneath. I feed through a hole in the top of the migratory cover which I plug with a plastic bung. I use a 2.5 gallon feed pail to feed spring and fall. 
Pallets for everything. The hives are on bottom board pallets, honey boxes are hauled on pallets, pails are hauled in tote crates. I use two totes tanks to haul feed around to the yards with and I have two 2500 gallon tanks that will take a tanker of syrup.
I use a lift truck for all my honeyhouse work, and a skid steer anywhere else outside. 
I have two satisfied 52 foot dry van trailers which I use for hauling and storage. During the winter I fill them with boxes and equipment. Through the production season I use them as empty and full barrel storage. I will send the van to my barrel supplier to pick up my empty barrels, and as I fill barrels I store them in the other dry van trailer. When the van is filled with honey, I send the trailer to my packer for honey delivery. Works real slick, and saves so much space in my honey house and also save me from having to move barrels of honey more than once.


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## Keith Jarrett

Being a pollen sub producer, we now grow some of the products that we use in Nutra Bee, we just couldn't find what we were looking for, so being from Calif we just decided to start growing some of the supplies that we use in our sub.


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## Ian

Do you use pollen in your sub?


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian, you've asked me this question before, NO.


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## Ian

I know, but what do you mean by growing your own? do you mean soybeans?


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## Keith Jarrett

Ian, what I mean is, we pant- grow- harvest- mill and tote the product, then use it in our nutra Bee pollen substitute.


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## Ian

Thats cool, as long as its not pollen.
I think I'm going to look into getting some of this Nutra-Bee feed for next spring.

Which brings this off topic back on topic, Adam, buy supplies together with neighbours to cut costs


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## jim lyon

Well I have a slightly different take on the question. I have never lowered my overall expenses but I most definitely lowered my average cost per hive. Standardize what you are doing so that you can run more hives with the same amount of labor. Spend the money that it takes to make you as efficient as possible. It's really, really difficult to quantify the value of efficiency to your bottom line until you realize at the end of the year that you have more hives full of bees and more barrels full of honey and you have done it all in approximately the same number of man hours. We used to run about 1,000 hives per full time beekeeper and now it's closer to 1,500. One more thing (and I'm pretty sure I am in a minority with this statement) your goal needs to be spending full time doing beekeeping related activities. I don't spend a lot of my time doing mechanical work, carpenter work or anything else not directly related to beekeeping. Beekeeping is the only thing that I am much good at so I hire folks that know what they are doing to do all that other stuff.


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## Acebird

Michael Palmer said:


> Acebird said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... don't feed....QUOTE]
> 
> How is a ban on feeding sugar in your apiary a cost-saving method?
> 
> 
> 
> You asked so I will answer. Bees are insects that have survived as a species for millions of years without my help or yours. If they haven't collected enough stores for their survival do I want them? NO.
> 
> Dollars and cents-if I don't feed it cost me nothing.
> 
> If you want to label me as a bee-haver I am OK with that. If you feed your bees and I don't I think I have a better cost-saving method than you do. Do you pay your bees to work, I don't? It is like managing slaves. Isn't it how our for fathers did it? They acquired great wealth.
> 
> We can learn from our elders...
Click to expand...


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## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> I don't spend a lot of my time doing mechanical work, carpenter work or anything else not directly related to beekeeping. Beekeeping is the only thing that I am much good at so I hire folks that know what they are doing to do all that other stuff.


Well Jim you are talking about scale. If your father handed you a thriving business you can just keep the flywheel rolling pretty easy. If you had to start from scratch then you pretty much started as chief cook and bottle washer with a broom handle stuck up your butt to sweep the floors. Not to belittle your ability but money breads money. It is a lot harder when you come from the geto.


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## Acebird

Ian said:


> I fill barrels I store them in the other dry van trailer. When the van is filled with honey, I send the trailer to my packer for honey delivery.


Can you explain what a dry van trailer is?


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## sqkcrk

You missed his point I think. Basically, do what you do best and pay someone else to do the rest. It is not efficient for me to go to deisel mechanic school, buy all the necassery specialized tools and maintain a garage when I can pay someone else to do that, and better.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Can you explain what a dry van trailer is?


It's not a tanker and it isn't an open deck trailer, it's a box trailer.


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## Bubbles

Please ignore this post. The question has been asked regarding Junniper bark.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> You missed his point I think. Basically, do what you do best and pay someone else to do the rest.


I think I understood that but you have to get yourself to a point where you have that luxury. Unless you were handed a going business, inheritance, or a wad of money the way you approach starting a business is different. Blood sweat and tears is the usual approach for someone starting from scratch.


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## sqkcrk

And what has that to do w/ cost saving methods?


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## Keith Jarrett

Acebird said:


> Well Jim with a broom handle stuck up your butt to sweep the floors. Not to belittle your ability


Really Ace...... your a classic ace truely one of a kind.


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## Acebird

Keith, where would you be without cut and past? Your a business man? could of fooled me.


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## sqkcrk

This was a nice and civil thread.


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## Paul McCarty

Not sure Bubbles... I don't count mites and only worry about them when I see them, which isn't that often. I know they are there, but frankly, bears are a bigger problem to me. Smoking with One Seed Juniper or Creosote is a local Mexico/New Mexico thing. It is taught to many of the new beekeepers here. They also teach most of us that the wild bees here are here because they have learned to adapt, and we should not worry about the mites so much. We definitely have true wild bees here for the most part and not escapees.

I am not sure how accurate the count would be anyway as far as determining how effective it is. I use natural comb and some small cell, Mid-summer brood breaks, mostly feral bees, occasional juniper smoking, and no other real treatments. I have also observed my wild bees grooming mites off each other too. Could be a combination of all these factors. Or it could be that I start fresh nucs every year from splits and constantly cycle through my hives. Whatever it is, it seems to work for me.

The mite drop test would not really tell how infected they were in my opinion. Don't really have time for it anyway. I would rather lose the weak hive to mites and breed from the strong one that is not affected. Haven't had it happen yet. 

I do have some first year domestic Italians down in the desert. Maybe If I have problems with them in the future I can eliminate some of these factors and narrow it down.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Keith Jarrett said:


> Really Ace...... your a classic ace truely one of a kind.


This is Ace at his finest. I am going to file away this thread so in the future I can mine it for Ace "_nuggets_" when appropriate to toss back at him.


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## BeeCurious

Rader Sidetrack said:


> This is Ace at his finest. I am going to file away this thread so in the future I can mine it for Ace "_nuggets_" when appropriate to toss back at him.


Adding tags helps.


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## Adam Foster Collins

I thank those of you who have been contributing to the topic of the thread. 

I think efficiency is really key to anyone who is interested in beekeeping beyond a few hives. I am thinking of growth, and the most pressing questions to me revolve around what I want my overall approach to be. I hate to waste time, money, materials - and bees on bad ideas, or poorly thought-out inventions. 

Mike Palmer, how do you weigh your hives? What kind of scale do you use in the field?

Thanks,

ADam


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## Rader Sidetrack

sqkcrk said:


> It's not a tanker and it isn't an open deck trailer, it's a box trailer.


More specifically, the _dry _part indicates that it is *not *a refrigerated trailer (reefer), but of course is a box trailer. Aside from the refrigeration unit, reefers have thicker walls, so their cubic capacity is lower than a dry van.


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## Bubbles

Paul McCarty said:


> The species in question is this one - http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=JUMO the One Seed Juniper. Others may work too, but this is the one traditionally used.
> 
> This is the other plant used - http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=LATRT the Creosote Bush.
> 
> May not help you guys in Florida much. I hear there are some other plants that may have an affect too. These treatments were first popularized here by Les Crowder, ex NM head bee inspector.


We don't have your kind of juniper in Northwestern Missouri. Do you know if Juniper horizontalis 'Bar Harbor' would work just as well or not at all?


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## sqkcrk

Rader Sidetrack said:


> More specifically, the _dry _part indicates that it is *not *a refrigerated trailer (reefer), but of course is a box trailer. Aside from the refrigeration unit, reefers have thicker walls, so their cubic capacity is lower than a dry van.


Thanks for clearing that up.


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## jim lyon

Acebird said:


> Well Jim you are talking about scale. If your father handed you a thriving business you can just keep the flywheel rolling pretty easy. If you had to start from scratch then you pretty much started as chief cook and bottle washer with a broom handle stuck up your butt to sweep the floors. Not to belittle your ability but money breads money. It is a lot harder when you come from the geto.


Your statement is laughable in its ignorance of not only of our families finances of which of course you know nothing but an even greater ignorance of the cyclical nature of keeping bees through the years. Are you even aware that only five years ago raw honey prices were at ,80 per pound and not long before that almond pollination rates were under $40? I won't even attempt to try to understand where this type of anger comes from its just too bad they you choose to disrupt this forum and express it on here,


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## waynesgarden

Most things I do, I try to do efficiently. Planning and maintaining my handful of yards is one area. Working efficiently in my wood shop to produce all my woodenware is another. A third is in obtaining information. Using the ignore button on a certain pest plaguing this forum has improved my efficiency in the information department. 

Wayne


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## Ian

he he, Im actually using a reefer, but the refrigeration unit has been removed, so Im using it as a dry van. You can buy them saftied for a bargain because the old refrigeration units are out of date to a lot of environmental regs (California). Instead of retro fitting new units on these old clunky trailers they just send them for sale to fellows like me  $5000 picked up




Rader Sidetrack said:


> More specifically, the _dry _part indicates that it is *not *a refrigerated trailer (reefer), but of course is a box trailer. Aside from the refrigeration unit, reefers have thicker walls, so their cubic capacity is lower than a dry van.


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## Ian

>>poorly thought-out inventions. 

Adam, I have a stack of ideas, and I also have (had) a pile of well thought out inventions
don't ignore those "what if" ideas, its what keeps this business fun


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## BeeGhost

But Wayne, your missing out on the humorous part of each thread due to the ignore button!

Yes, it would be easy and cheap to just starve my bees and just catch more swarms in the spring, but I really like my genetics and demeanor of the stock I have right now and want to try and keep that. Plus, is it the bees fault that there was a large dearth this year? They did the best they could with what resources they had available. I think we as beekeepers should do our best to sustain the colonies we are keeping, after all we ARE beekeepers, right Acebird?


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## BeeGhost

Acebird said:


> Well Jim you are talking about scale. If your father handed you a thriving business you can just keep the flywheel rolling pretty easy. If you had to start from scratch then you pretty much started as chief cook and bottle washer with a broom handle stuck up your butt to sweep the floors. Not to belittle your ability but money breads money. It is a lot harder when you come from the geto.


Acebird,

Just because someone is handed a business doesnt mean it will continue to become successful. Times change and so do the hurdles that must be overcome. Sure, maybe the commercial guys might be making a bit more these days on the honey and pollination than they used to, but things like fuel, insurance, machinery and labor also cost a lot more, not to mention that commercial guys have to deal with a lot more "hiccups" like varroa mite and other pests that were not around 20 years ago.

Ive seen a few construction companies that got handed down through generations only to either downsize substantially or close up shop completely due to the economy. 

There is nothing guaranteed these days except higher gas prices and death.

And just think Ace, a lot of these commercial/sideliner keepers actually feed their bees, at around $4 a gallon.............if they only fed one gallon per hive and fed 1500 hives, how much is that?? Now try feeding them 4 gallons per hive or more. Unlike you, who doesnt feed your bees because they are expendable and you dont rely on them for a living, those guys have to keep their bees in top shape in order to be ready for almonds in February so they can collect a paycheck. Thats the difference between the hobbiest and commercial guy. Maybe someday when you open your eyes you will actually read whats in the book and not just look at the cover and complain that the book is not hardbound and wont last. In other words, miss the obvious points of peoples stories.


----------



## Michael Palmer

Acebird said:


> Michael Palmer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You asked so I will answer. Bees are insects that have survived as a species for millions of years without my help or yours. If they haven't collected enough stores for their survival do I want them? NO.
> 
> Dollars and cents-if I don't feed it cost me nothing.
> 
> If you want to label me as a bee-haver I am OK with that. If you feed your bees and I don't I think I have a better cost-saving method than you do. Do you pay your bees to work, I don't? It is like managing slaves. Isn't it how our for fathers did it? They acquired great wealth.
> 
> We can learn from our elders...
> 
> 
> 
> Ace, think about it...you're allowing a colony to die because you refuse to feed them. You seem to think that this is going to, in some way, improving the genetics of your bees. In your ignorance, you take nothing into account but the bottom line. Sometimes, a colony without enough feed for winter has nothing to do with genetics. Sometimes, it's all about the weather...too much rain and cold, too hot and dry. If there's no nectar in the flowers, there's no honey in the hive.
> 
> If you don't feed, it doesn't cost you anything...except the replacement of the dead colony. So let 'em die...and buy nucs from me!  But then again...you could split your remaining colonies by walk-away method. It still costs in lost honey production...but then again, you don't care about honey production...you're just a bee-haver. Feeding them would have been a better cost-saving method...in the long run. And as I said, you could raise queens from the heavy colonies and requeen the colonies that needed feeding. That's what real bee-keepers do.
> 
> Slaves? Ace, give me a break.
> 
> You seem to want to argue, just for the sake of arguing. Home life must be a real challenge. Think re-queen!
Click to expand...


----------



## ralittlefield

My biggest cost savings comes from mating two hobbies, Beekeeping and woodworking. Now I need to find a way to justify buying a bandsaw mill so I can saw my own lumber! (Hope my wife is not reading this!)


----------



## MichaBees

I believe that the God Evil of all bees has sent a bird into the hive, in order to diminish the enormous teaching and learning ability of this commune. The bird needs and thrives in attention -no matter the cost, in a way talking about his pour and unsatisfied life. “He who talks bad about others, talks bad about himself”, my old man used to say. He also used to say; “It is better for people to believe you are a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt”. Like “The Bird” said before, the forefathers had great wisdom –mine did. 
Bird, although your ignorant constant criticism and arrogant statements are somehow entertaining, your lack of confidence and hollow life peculating on your thinking is not. Please allow those of us that sit on the background in order to learn from the great people that share good knowledge here, by expanding your wings and flying far into your great world of ignorance. You had our attention for so long, and I am grateful I have been able to taste the simplicity and brutal reality, of your artificial reasoning, synthetic knowledge and painful indulgence of your bottomless need for attention; but I had enough feathers on this soup. 
Go grow some tomatoes and let the bees fly.


----------



## Acebird

Topic:*What are some of your cost-saving methods?*



> Don't buy bees, don't feed and above all don't buy chemicals.


I wouldn't expect everyone to agree but I know others that are doing this.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

BeeGhost said:


> There is nothing guaranteed these days except higher gas prices and death.
> 
> BG don't forget TAXES.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins

>sigh<

...another thread sinks into a murky pool of responses aimed at Acebird. 

I need some beekeeping information.Guess I'll resort to PM's.

Thanks again to those of you you responded to the OP.

Adam


----------



## sqkcrk

Overall the responses have been good and useful ones. I for one am glad this Thread got started. I have enjoyed reading about the things others do to save time and money.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins

Ian said:


> >>poorly thought-out inventions.
> 
> Adam, I have a stack of ideas, and I also have (had) a pile of well thought out inventions
> don't ignore those "what if" ideas, its what keeps this business fun


Oh no, don't get me wrong. I'm a designer myself, so I'm all for inventions. It's just that those inventions need (for me) to be based on sound thinking, and informed foresight, so that they fit in with the overall picture. I hate to be making something to deal with a problem, only to find out after that it really doesn't work well and I've used a bunch of material to do it.

Unavoidable to some extent, but I just really try to keep the "big misses" to a minimum.

Adam


----------



## Ian

Terms are being thrown around here, bee haver, beekeeper,

I have bees, and I keep them, so what does that make me? Bee haver or a bee keeper? I think Im both.

One of the most interesting things about having, or keeping bees is that there are so many different approaches to managing them. Some without intervention, others totally about manipulating them. Neither approach is wrong, yet we seem to criticize differing approaches as being wrong. 
If there is one thing that i have learnt in this business it is that Im always able to improve on my management methods. And being a commercial beekeeper, I still listen to what beekeepers like Acebird (if that is really his name?) is saying even if it sound impractical.


----------



## Ian

what beekeeper does not think they rely on bought bees too much?
what beekeeper does not think they rely on syrup too much?
what beekeeper does not think they rely on medications too much?

I think most beekeepers think this, and thats one point that Acey is trying to make, right?


----------



## Ian

>>I have enjoyed reading about the things others do to save time and money.

ya keep it coming guys, or Ill start another thread like this one


----------



## sqkcrk

His name is Brian. Acebird is his screen name/handle(?).

If someone doesn't manage the bees they have, which Brian suggests is the proper way to keep bees, that's not what I consider being a beekeeper. Whether bee-haver is a degrogetory term or not depends on how the term is used and how it is taken by the person it is addressed to. There are people who are proud to be havers. Okay by me, but not very relevant to those of us who keep bees for the usual reasons.


----------



## Ian

Too bad Mark, I consider Brian as much a beekeeper or haver as the rest of us


----------



## sqkcrk

Ian said:


> what beekeeper does not think they rely on bought bees too much?
> what beekeeper does not think they rely on syrup too much?
> what beekeeper does not think they rely on medications too much?
> 
> I think most beekeepers think this, and thats one point that Acey is trying to make, right?


I don't think I rely on bought bees too much.
I don't think I rely on syrup too much.
I don't think I rely on medications too much.

I think trying to figure out what Brian's point is is a futile exercise. I have, in the past, tried to figure out what he writes about only to have him tell me I was wrong.

Let's stick to the Thread Topic and glean what is meaningful and practical and useful. Comments about brood sticks where they don't belong just don't belong on a Thread about "cost-saving methods".


----------



## sqkcrk

Ian said:


> Too bad Mark, I consider Brian as much a beekeeper or haver as the rest of us


Such is your Right. No skin off of my nose. I hope you take into consideration what he has written before taking his advice.


----------



## Ian

>>I don't think I rely on bought bees too much.
>>I don't think I rely on syrup too much.
>>I don't think I rely on medications too much.

I do, and its very expensive to manage bees in this fashion. 

I know a beekeeper near here that has tried to shift his commercial apiarie towards a more self sustaining operation. He is trying to manage off chemicals using alternative methods of mite control, successfully. He is also trying to produce bees and queens internally to wien off import queens and packages. He has not figured out the syrup problem yet, thats a hard one with the spread between sugar and honey.

Im looking seriously at this business model


----------



## Ian

>>Such is your Right. No skin off of my nose. I hope you take into consideration what he has written before taking his advice.

yes I know, I agree totally, but sometimes all that mud clouds our vission. Maybe he has a sliver of good stuff to give. The continual spinning argument turns into blabber after a while and that is where the good stuff gets missed


----------



## Ian

Adam, 
For my operation, buying in queens is the most efficient method of supplying my operation to cover my splits. Its hard to get mated queens ready to go so early in our season so we buy them in and they are expensive. But the quality of the queens has been lacking recently. I dont know what it is, and the problem can be debated on another thread, but Im starting to think a more feasible management practice to supply my need for queens. 
Im thinking in stead of making splits, I should shift my focus on making nucs, to be queened by the use of queen cell, and have those nucs ready to produce honey the following year. This way I can cut down my need to make up split every year cutting one of my biggest beekeeping costs and have "Better" or more reliable queen performance year after year.

Also, thinking out loud here, but I also think this is a oportune time to control mites. Why not treat for mites during this process of no or little brood and have mite free nucs set up and ready to produce the following year. A simple cheap oxalic drizzle during the broodless period of them nuc set up would control nearly all the mites, the nuc would build and be ready the following year healthy and ready to go. 
Just a thought


----------



## deknow

I've found that I can buy bargain grade deep boxes (the only size we use) for less than $9.50, and frames for less than $0.60/...I don't bother making these....if I had free wood I might make boxes...but at that price I can't afford to make frames from scratch. If you buy as full (or even partail) pallets, you save big $$$ over shipping in boxes (I think it was $80 in shipping for our last 100 deep boxes and 1000 frames, with a few other items thrown on top)...you can probably pay that much in shipping for 8-10 deeps if shipped in a box from a regular bee equipment supplier.

Bottoms and tops are another thing altogether.

I've been making bottom boards with wood from home depot (2x4 for the side rails and "ledger board" for the slats). An 8' 2x4 costs me about $2.50, and I can get the side rails for 8 bottom boards plus rails for at least 2 5 frame bottom boards.

The ledger board costs about $9 for a 16' length, and I can get the slats for 3 10frame bottom boards out of each half of the 16' piece.

Similar savings with telescoping top covers (when I do a run, I will report here the costs....haven't done them in over a year).

Next step for me is to make custom sleds for the tablesaw for each cut so I can do them when I have a few minutes at a time, and to reduce my setup time overall (and my mistakes).

We've been using the grain bag inner covers, but find they start to shed in year two....at $0.60/each, probably worth it to replace them each year.

deknow


----------



## sqkcrk

Ian said:


> The continual spinning argument turns into blabber after a while and that is where the good stuff gets missed


Who starts the spin? Who starts the argument? My Dad often said "Consider the source." The older I get the smarter my Dad becomes, even though he has been dead 12 years.


----------



## jim lyon

Ian said:


> what beekeeper does not think they rely on bought bees too much?
> what beekeeper does not think they rely on syrup too much?
> what beekeeper does not think they rely on medications too much?


I dont rely on bee purchases as the only ones I have made in the past 10 years are breeding stock.
My treatments have been quite minimal in recent years
However I do, by choice, rely heavily on syrup purchases. I am not denigrating anyone who chooses to leave a lot of honey on their bees but for me the approximately 1.70 price difference between HFCS and honey is something too good to pass up. My point isnt that they do better with supplemental feeding but that our hives couldnt really be any better at the start of the main flow than they have been in recent years. 

Ian: Sincere apologies for taking the bait and any part I played in sidetracking your thread. In hindsight it would have been best to ignore and consider the source though one part that I wholeheartedly agree with is that we most definitely press the advantage of economy of scale in everything we do from pricing equipment to placing locations and setting up an extracting system with an efficient flow. As I stated earlier it is extremely difficult to place a direct value on efficiency, you just know you will come out better at the end of the year.


----------



## Ian

>>sidetracking your thread

you guys are too much, 

>>The older I get the smarter my Dad becomes, even though he has been dead 12 years. 

ha ha ha, aint that the truth.


----------



## Ian

>>I do, by choice, rely heavily on syrup purchases.

me too. Cant keep the hives going during without it. I also take all the honey at harvest and winter on cheap syrup. 
Its funny how a little bit of syrup will pay dividends of honey later on. 
I can see ways to manage around importing queens and bees, also medication, but I do not see a feasable way to manage around supplemental feeding


----------



## seyc

Other than starting out, I do not rely heavily on bought bees.
I do rely heavily on syrup.
I have yet to medicate.



Ian said:


> I can see ways to manage around importing queens and bees, also medication, but I do not see a feasible way to manage around supplemental feeding.


The only way I see of being able to not do supplemental feeding them is to not harvest the honey. 

Simple math; If the bees require X amount of calories to survive the winter, and it is cheaper to provide that with syrup than with honey = harvest the honey and feed the bees syrup.


----------



## Acebird

Adam Foster Collins said:


> >sigh<
> 
> ...another thread sinks into a murky pool of responses aimed at Acebird.


Funny you would notice that, the moderator doesn't notice a blaton braking of the rules partly because every forum has a click.
If you want to get everyone's ideas you use a forum and pick the ideas that suit you. If you want to get support from you buddies you use a selected chat room or I guess PM's.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins

Good stuff. Great information. DeKnow, where are you getting your gear?

I'm already using feed bags for inner covers, and I'm looking at outer cover design and ways to make that simpler. I made simple SBB last winter, and now I think I'll abandon the sbb and simplify bottoms too.

I painted all my hives dark, as our temps are not so high here (we rarely get over 85). That should get me more heat in the cooler months and saves me having to wrap for that benefit.

Adam


----------



## jim lyon

seyc said:


> Other than starting out, I do not rely heavily on bought bees.
> I do rely heavily on syrup.
> I have yet to medicate.
> 
> 
> 
> The only way I see of being able to not do supplemental feeding them is to not harvest the honey.
> 
> Simple math; If the bees require X amount of calories to survive the winter, and it is cheaper to provide that with syrup than with honey = harvest the honey and feed the bees syrup.


I dont think the math is quite that simple as I will concede that bees will do better on honey (or at least honey that dosent granulate rock hard) and there is the matter of the labor involved in feeding but aside from that you are definitely pretty close to the mark, the dollar advantage is significant.


----------



## sqkcrk

I actually put boxes of honey on some hives this year because I am concerned whether I will be able to feed enough syrup at the right time when they need it, one thousand miles away from home. In hopes that the economics will work out.


----------



## Acebird

Ian said:


> I still listen to what beekeepers like Acebird (if that is really his name?) is saying even if it sound impractical.


Ian, my name is Brian Cardinal, acebird is a screen name I selected many years ago. I have found only a few instances where acebird is use on the net (and there are others) but only a few.
I find it odd that people in business would try to ridicule somebody in a public forum. You wonder if it is really a business, at least I do. I think the psychology in marketing would agree.

Ian, I express what comes off the top of my head. Some people might like the ideas other may not and others take offence. I am sorry about that. I can't change who I am or how I express myself. I keep bees. I could care less whether I am a beehaver or a beekeeper in someone else's eye. Titles mean nothing to me.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> His name is Brian. Acebird is his screen name/handle(?).
> 
> If someone doesn't manage the bees they have, which Brian suggests is the proper way to keep bees, that's not what I consider being a beekeeper.


A too brutae, (whole bunch of spelling errors). Mark, you through me under the bus... I *DO NOT* suggest to anyone to keep bees the way I do. It is a personal preference and I think others are doing it.


----------



## Acebird

deknow said:


> We've been using the grain bag inner covers, but find they start to shed in year two....at $0.60/each, probably worth it to replace them each year.
> 
> deknow


 Any dog kennel is going to pay to through these away. Got and dog breeder friends?


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Who starts the spin? Who starts the argument?


I would really like you to go back and check that Mark.


----------



## TWall

Adam,

I'm also planning on moving away from SBB. I will probably still have some added ventilation in the bottom board, I use upper entrances.

I find that I am moving towards, old, tried and true beekeeping practices as opposed to cutting edge new ideas. I'm getting tired of trying to reinventing the wheel.

I try to listen to the guys that make their living with bees.

Tom


----------



## Acebird

seyc said:


> Simple math; If the bees require X amount of calories to survive the winter, and it is cheaper to provide that with syrup than with honey = harvest the honey and feed the bees syrup.


I think it is simple math (that is all I know). What did it cost you for the bees to go out and collect that honey? Are you an accountant or a beekeeper?
It cost me nothing for the bees to go out and collect that honey that is why I deem my bees slaves. It is like the mafia, I just collect a percentage. Are you looking for more volume? Set up more hives (buy more slaves). The reality is you don't need to feed them in an area that is productive. You should be looking for and aquiring those areas.


----------



## Ian

Im just playing with you, 
I find it funny how people use screen names. I always figure it is harder to press enter, if you name is tagged on the bottom of it.



Acebird said:


> Ian, my name is Brian Cardinal, acebird is a screen name I selected many years ago. I have found only a few instances where acebird is use on the net (and there are others) but only a few.


----------



## Ian

Its not quite that simple though, we beekeep in an area where honey is very bountiful. 200 plus lbs per hive. But that bounty full crop comes in the form of canola honey. It hardens to a point where the bees have trouble using it during the winter months. We take that and supply them with syrup for winter.
Beekeeping here in my area is a totally un natural area for bees to live in. We do not find wild hives because they arent adapted to this kind of extreme environment. But there are conditions which do make for a favorable beekeeping environment. So with a little help by the beekeeper, the bees are able to thrive in this area. And bees are needed in this area to pollinate the hundreds of thousands of acres of flowers.

So what I am doing is keeping bees in an un natural area, which is being farm un naturally, so I manage the bees in an un natural manner to allow them to thrive

I can look for areas in my management plan to bring more natural practices to them, but I can not go all the way or Im wasting my time



Acebird said:


> I think it is simple math (that is all I know). What did it cost you for the bees to go out and collect that honey? Are you an accountant or a beekeeper?
> It cost me nothing for the bees to go out and collect that honey that is why I deem my bees slaves. It is like the mafia, I just collect a percentage. Are you looking for more volume? Set up more hives (buy more slaves). The reality is you don't need to feed them in an area that is productive. You should be looking for and aquiring those areas.


----------



## Acebird

You got my name, you got my screen name. Pressing enter is not an issue for me.


----------



## Ian

>>I'm looking at outer cover design and ways to make that simpler

I have moved completely away from inner covers and telescopic lids and went to a migratory cover with a feed hole.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> A too brutae, (whole bunch of spelling errors). Mark, you through me under the bus... I *DO NOT* suggest to anyone to keep bees the way I do. It is a personal preference and I think others are doing it.


Just like I said. Or don't you think your methods (hack,hack) are proper? For you?

Et tu Brute. Threw.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> I would really like you to go back and check that Mark.


I have no desire to do that Brian. I believe that everyone knows from whence the disruptive element comes.


----------



## BeeGhost

Acebird, your getting all bent out if shape, now arnt you. Now you are receiving a taste if your own medicine and you don't like it. You state you don't care what people think, yet you respond defensively, so there must be something there. 

The thing about you is that you feel free to bash everyone else's opinions and things they have made, but when it happens to you, it's a whole different thing. This is where I tell you to keep your hands off the keyboard and attempt to think before you type. There isn't a "click" that is offended by your posts, there is a whole community that would rather ignore you than read another post from you. You have created your own mud hole and now you have to wallow in it. 

It's even gone to the extent that you were banned from another site, for doing the same things you are doing here. I personally think you get away with a lot of things in this site as well, but instead of being babies we are letting you know how we feel within the parameters of the rules of conduct of this site. 

You offend a lot of people, and now they are speaking up and you take it personally, time to wake up and smell the coffee.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins

TWall said:


> Adam,
> 
> I'm also planning on moving away from SBB. I will probably still have some added ventilation in the bottom board, I use upper entrances.
> 
> ...


Same here. I am thinking about some kind of solid bottom board with a section of screen that can be open or closed - just or ventilation. Not for mites.

Adam


----------



## Adam Foster Collins

Ian said:


> ...
> 
> I have moved completely away from inner covers and telescopic lids and went to a migratory cover with a feed hole.


So your outer cover has a hole in it? How is it closed against the weather when not in use? And are you running all 10 frame boxes?

Adam


----------



## Ian

Thats the best part about it, I buy a plastic bung from my bee supply store. They have 2, 1 1/2, and 1 inch bungs available but I choose the 1". Much easier to drill a 1" hole through 3/4" plywood and the bees are able to get through quite nicely.
I love the migratory tops. Inner covers and telescopic lids are soo cumbersome to transport. Migratory stack nicer and its one piece of equipment instead of two.
Also, the bees will glue the lid down so there is no need to weight down your lids. Bricks are a pain.




Adam Foster Collins said:


> So your outer cover has a hole in it? How is it closed against the weather when not in use? And are you running all 10 frame boxes?
> 
> Adam


----------



## Adam Foster Collins

Thanks Ian,

Got a picture of your lids, or a link to one on your site?

Adam


----------



## Ian

ill try to link you a pic.


----------



## Ian

I have a video showing my bee arm at work. In that video near the end it show some of my original migratory top designs. I used 1*4 to make them because I had bought a lift of them cheap. I dipped them in wax resin to seal the cracks.
BUT
I changed the 1*4 out of my recently made tops and used plywood. plywood is easier to work with and plywood does not leak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QKaipOC5fqc


----------



## BeeGhost

Ian, what are you using for feeders, 2 gallon buckets? I currently run ventilated covers but will only use them until they rot out and get burned, I'm going to go to plywood covers as well just for ease and they are cheap to make, even if I had to do it every three years.


----------



## Ian

They are 12 liter pails, 
Plywood covers will last longer than three years.
I built them with cleats on the sides and on the top. They cleats help keep the lids on tight, the one on top is not necessary but I use it to help keep the 3/4" wood from warping and it also adds a bit more weight so wind does not take them as easy.
There is a beekeeper here who just cuts a piece of 3/4" plywood and uses it without cleats. works for him fine but I wonder if they slide off during transport.


----------



## sqkcrk

Not if they are glued down by the bees or nailed down by the beekeeper. That's what I use. A net helps to keep from losing lids.


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI

Ian, in the ezyloader video, are those escape boards a design you came up with yourself? I have not seen any like that before. They look quite robust.


----------



## deknow

I am producing food for sale for humans to eat. I don't use grain bags that have had animal feed in them, or have been stored under unknown circumstances. You arebwelcome to do so and save sixty cents, but I don't see that as worthwhile savings in our operation.

Deknow


----------



## ralittlefield

deknow said:


> I am producing food for sale for humans to eat. I don't use grain bags that have had animal feed in them,


Do you use frames that have had bugs living in them?


----------



## Daniel Y

SO far I have made as much equipment as I can. personal equipment such as bee suits. smokers. hive tool and a few other things I have purchased. woodenware of all types I have made from wood I have found. The savings in making wooden ware is highly variable from individual to individual depending on how much woodworking equipment they already own.

I purchased one 5 frame nuc of bees. captured one swarm and made two additional 5 frame nucs from a trap out. gathering your own bees is definitely a cost saver.

Searching for lower cost treatmant options. This one the jury is still out on.

As Mark said. pay careful attention to getting as much out of every trip to the hive as possible. this one I am still working on. I seldom return from looking in a hive that I don't say. "Ah man I should have..." This one so far is not so much money as it is time consuming and confidence that pays.

I have not done this yet but have been milling it over a lot. I have left 100 lbs of honey on my hive that could be sold for as much as $6 a lb. This honey could have been harvested and the bees fed 60 cent a lb sugar to replace it. At first this seems that selling honey and feeding sugar is a huge savings. Feed $6 honey or 60 cent sugar. But this one could also be an extremely complicated one.

Like the above or even in addition to it I see the potential of saving in not wintering the bees at all. again a complicated issue and one that attachment to the bees and ethics comes into play. But from a purely economical stand point why pay the cost to winter bees at all? On legitimate answer is getting new colonies started in the spring so that they will produce enough honey to pay for themselves. I have already seen with the one nuc I purchased this is probably very well achievable. A swarm I captured indicates the opposite. So there is at least some reason to think their is a method to winter minimal bees at least and still harvest a decent per bee or per colony crop. This is all just advanced thinking on my part.

I have recently seen other management systems that ends up harvesting 100% of the honey from a hive yet still allows the bees to make honey for winter. This method (with my modifications) splits the hive into two. half the hive is put on good forage ind spend the summer producing honey, All honey produced in the spring flow is taken at this time. the other half is fed. In the fall both hives are recombined and the honey is taken and the bees are left with the feed stores for winter. Between the two harvest all honey produced in a year is harvested. The bees are living on feed that came from waste honey or sugar water etc.


----------



## deknow

....from a "purely economical standpoint" one might as well sell crack to children (the product that sells itself).

The role of the beekeeper is to manage the bees in such a way as to redirect the reproductive urge (swarming) into storing a surplus of honey. 

I can't speak for those that keep bees in areas that can't support bees (I see the point from a pollination and business perspective, but I can't imagine keeping bees under circumstances where I was simply swapping refined sugar for honey).

The amazing thing to me is that I hear from beekeepers and top notch researchers in areas with rampant feral populations (like Florida) that bees can't survive there without feeding.

In any case, my point isn't to put down what others are doing, but to point out that if it were only about economics, most of us would be doing something else. With that said, I should also point out that there are great economic opportunities everywhere, and less production (ie, from not swapping sugar for honey) does not have to mean less profit.

Deknow


----------



## deknow

ralittlefield said:


> Do you use frames that have had bugs living in them?


This is an interesting point. Most health codes specify no insects in contact with food.....my experience with inspectors is that when it comes for honey and bees, they just shrug their shoulders at this.
On the other hand, bees keep things pretty clean....would you like some dog food powder on your honey? Horse feed? Antibiotics from animal feed? Dried cat pee or rat poison from being stored in a barn? When I buy grain bags new and unused (again, at sixty cents each) they are clean enough to eat off of.

Deknow


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## sqkcrk

deknow said:


> I am producing food for sale for humans to eat. Deknow


I am going to start a Thread about this, but, since you unintentionally brought it up here by mentioning that you produce food for sale for humans to eat; Are you registered w/ the FDA under the Food Safety Modernization Act as required?


----------



## sqkcrk

acebirdian typo? What is that? A special warning tag? I've never seen that before.


----------



## Daniel Y

deknow said:


> ....from a "purely economical standpoint" one might as well sell crack to children (the product that sells itself).
> 
> The role of the beekeeper is to manage the bees in such a way as to redirect the reproductive urge (swarming) into storing a surplus of honey.
> 
> I have never seen this claim before. Taken purely as you have stated it the only reason bees produce a surplus is that their energy is diverted. If that is in fact what you are saying I am very interested in information about how this is so. I am aware that swarming impacts honey harvested but have always thought of it as a result of a reduced population of bees. Do bees actually slow down honey production as a result of swarming?
> 
> I can't speak for those that keep bees in areas that can't support bees (I see the point from a pollination and business perspective, but I can't imagine keeping bees under circumstances where I was simply swapping refined sugar for honey).
> 
> Not so much swapping. Honey is being produced from forage. it is also being produced from feed. The bees are left to winter on the honey produced from feed. the foraged honey is sold.
> I am not goign into detail about the impact such management might have on the health of the bees. The impact on the bees is intentionally being ignored. Purely hypothetical and focused on how to save money in keeping bees. The death of the bees is acceptable and actually may be the greatest cost savings. So in the ultimate situation. simply take every drop of honey and leave the bees to starve. Feeding them at all is just a compromise based mainly on ethics and moral concerns for the bees. In fact feeding the bees on sugar water is exactly what it seems most are doing anyway.
> 
> The amazing thing to me is that I hear from beekeepers and top notch researchers in areas with rampant feral populations (like Florida) that bees can't survive there without feeding.
> 
> No bees can survive? or a survival rate that is acceptable to beekeepers does not survive? big difference. In fact that their are feral colonies at all is proof that some do survive. the survival rate beekeepers expect is through the roof in comparison to what natural survival rates would be.
> 
> In any case, my point isn't to put down what others are doing, but to point out that if it were only about economics, most of us would be doing something else. With that said, I should also point out that there are great economic opportunities everywhere, and less production (ie, from not swapping sugar for honey) does not have to mean less profit.
> 
> The question is about economics. not the issue. If you want an entire opinion about beekeeping you will have to wait a while. My comment above are hypothetical. as for ethical? everyone draws their own line. But not wintering bees could very well be a cost saving method.
> 
> There are those that can and would challenge any beekeeper on ethical grounds simply because they keep bees. It is exploitation of another living creature. that argument can be and in fact is made by some. So keeping bees requires drawing a line at whatever point an individual find they choose.
> 
> But I will ask you directly. Do you never feed your bees? IF you do ever for any reason then how is that different than if someone else only feeds their bees. it is not a matter of weather feeding bees is ethical or not. it is only a matter of degree of feeding. You can say you fed your bees only if needed for their survival. I say the same. you say you only feed 20 lbs of sugar water maximum. I say I feed 200 lbs. how is your 20 lbs more ethical than my 200.
> 
> I am splitting hairs here because I do see such thinking exists. Maybe not necessarily on your part. but you did touch on this in your comments. I am thinking maybe you are wiling to support the thinking. I am taking the devils advocate at this time. and that is their is not regard for the bee or that it is a living creature. it exists only to produce profit for the beekeeper and when that usefulness is complete their is no reason to sustain it. The straightest route to the highest profits is to only keep a bee that is producing a profit. How do you see keeping a bee during it's unproductive period actually results in overall higher profits to the beekeeper.
> 
> I have in fact batted this thought around since I first found this group. I see a lot of evidence that the profits in beekeeping are lost in the efforts to keep them alive and winter them. I don't advocate the killing of bees in reality. I am just presenting it as a foundational idea and to reveal that wintering bees is in fact a cost. a big one as far as I cal tell. One so expensive that it makes beekeeping unprofitable for many. As you said yourself. There are many things a person can do to make better profits. this is true. But does it have to be? If it where not true would it be more common to keep bees?
> 
> With that the question being discussed goes from "I keep bees how can I save on costs"? to " If it did not cost so much would you keep bees"? It also includes "If you could make money at keeping bees, Would you"?
> 
> In actuality this year I am finding it will cost nearly as much to get my bees through winter as they cost me in the first place. So what reasons do I have to pay that cost? As you have mentioned I am in it to keep bees. not necessarily make profits. Not a lot of people will be motivated for those reasons. That may or may not be a good thing. Do we really want every back yard to have a hive? I am certain the commercial people don't.
> 
> But with costs being the only consideration. wintering bees is pretty high on the list. as far as I can tell so far it is second only to buying a bee suit and purchasing bees in the first place.
> 
> Feeding and cost of sugar is not the only cost. the cost of treatments which some are very expensive. modifications to the hive both in cost of material and time. this woudl include such things as adding insulation under the inner cover, making specific feed for winter or even wrapping of hives. reducing entrances and the addition of mouse guards. Keep in mind I consider time spent just as much of a cost as money spent. IF I value my time in dollars at just $20 a hour. keeping bees over winter can get very expensive very fast. Many issues toward cost savings can be found in that alone. being more time effective is one way. But with very few hives such as I have and I believe the typical beekeeper has. time is huge on the cost list. I can spend on average 2 hours per week on a single hive. that makes my hives cost $40 per week on average just in time alone. The bees only cost me $100 in the first place. after one year that cost has gone to nearly $1000 in money and time.
> 
> $20 an hour is very low when you ad in your comment that their are things I can do that pay better. I have multiple skills I can use to make $50 an hour or more with the same time spent on bees. $150 to even leave my house is my minimum. and I have gotten it many many times.
> 
> So in reality I make many compromises against profits in order to keep bees. so obviously I actually have other reasons to do it. We are not discussing those. we are discussing costs and how to save on them. Ultimately the greatest savings in keeping bees is in fact. don't keep them. that is the only way to save 100% of the costs. Beyond that it becomes an issue of how to recoup maximum expenses, reduce maximum cost and reduce time spent. I am tossing out any issue of right or wrong as well as impact on the bees themselves. I don't toss out those issues in my actually management of bees.
> 
> Ace I suspect you once again are applying an issue that does not apply for no other reason that to be argumentative. Does this requirement even apply to Honey? I suspect not.


----------



## sqkcrk

Daniel Y, more detail please?  No, just kidding.

When bees swarm the beekeeper loses production. If Michael Palmer was not effective at swarm suppresion or elimination his total honey crop would be drastically less.


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## D Semple

I save money by catching all my bees.

Second year beek with 40 + hives and I have yet to buy a single bee.


Now if I could just figure out how to eliminate the wife tax on my hobbies, I'd be all set. 


Don

In case you're interested in how it's done: http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj72/DSemple/Bees 2011/


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## Ian

oh no, they have been around for many years. Im just a copy cat lol



Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Ian, in the ezyloader video, are those escape boards a design you came up with yourself? I have not seen any like that before. They look quite robust.


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## Ian

>>he role of the beekeeper is to manage the bees in such a way as to redirect the reproductive urge (swarming) into storing a surplus of honey.
>>I have never seen this claim before

That is how I look at my job. the better job I can do minimizing swarming, the more money I make in the end

I keep hearing people put a value on their time. Its fine if you want to justify your livelihood but for the rest of us it is a non figure. 
It doesnt matter how much time I put into the business, its the end result and a positive bottom line that matters.
Tell my banker that I didnt meet my production goals because I figured it wasnt worth my time. If Im in deficit, Im working well over time to relieve that situation. right?


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## deknow

...the only two ways to eliminate the wife tax.
1. As Michael Palmer puts it, "requeen" ..but now you are paying the same tax, just to a different person.
2. Don't pay a tax, but offer a "voluntary contribution".....but again, you are still paying.

The only real way out is to make it her hobby too....if you can make her think it was her idea, all the better.

Deknow


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## Hyper.Intelligent.Fish

My old grandad used a layer of hessian under the migratory cover. It meant the cover wouldn't stick down, and the hessian (being flexible) would tear away from the top of the hive. I guess it also absorbed moisture during winter. He'd change the hessian bags every few years and burn the old ones in the smoker.

*Edit

He also never used a queen excluder.


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## alblancher

Daniel Y

I don't use work time to tend bees. If I tended bees full time I would have multiple income streams from my labors. Selling honey, wax, packages, nucs, candles, pollen etc would possibly better justify the cost benefit time analysis you did.

I tend bees in my free time or at my leisure. I can compare a couple of hours with the hives to a couple of hours cutting grass. I can justify a lawn service if the grass had to be cut during my prime income earning time but the grass gets cut when I have "free" time. The cost of my time tending bees is more appropriatly compared to the cost of my time while watching TV. 

Never missed a day on the job to tend hives!


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## Ian

>>The cost of my time tending bees is more appropriatly compared to the cost of my time while watching TV. 

lol I love it! Wish more people would look at things that way


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## Adam Foster Collins

alblancher said:


> ...The cost of my time tending bees is more appropriatly compared to the cost of my time while watching TV.


Well, if you're paying for cable...


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## waynesgarden

alblancher said:


> The cost of my time tending bees is more appropriatly compared to the cost of my time while watching TV.


This was my point some time back when a former member (now banned) argued that I was wasting my time making equipment when I should be using that free time to make money so I could buy what I need (i.e: work longer hours.)

Love the idea of working more and buying what i need with after-tax dollars. Smoking deal, huh? Especially since I'm on salary and get not a penny more if I work 60 hour than if I work 50.

Wayne


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Depending where you live Craigslist can be a boon. The biggest saving I make is in lumber. I have a price set in my head of what I will pay for 1x12 pine lumber - a maximum of $0.40 per linear foot. I have more than 200 feet of pine sitting in my shed, and when the weather cools off a bit more I will start to work it into deeps and nucs. I understand the argument that I could pick up more hours and pay for manufactured boxes, but for me there is inherent value in producing something, and I get to work at my own pace and not that demanded of my at my workplace - a long winded way of saying that I actually enjoy making boxes.


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## alblancher

A lot of people do not consider the difference between pre-tax and post tax income when doing a cost benefit analysis. 

I plant a garden and constantly hear that it is cheaper to buy the vegs then to grow them. My first response is "add 30% to the cost of the store bought food and see where we stand". Another issue is that for a lot of us the amount of income we receive is a finite number. I can't use my vegetable growing labors to pay for the new car, I need to use "post" tax income. That means, if we are on salary as previously mentioned, the pie is only so large and how it gets split up is important.

Don't forget to add your effective tax rate and possible sales tax to the cost of equipment you purchase to determine it's true cost. 

Obviously we are talking about people that keep bees as a hobby. If you are a commercial beekeeper this whole tax discussion changes but the income stream, opportunities to "expense" equipment, fuel, transportation, additiional labor, education change also.


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## jim lyon

Alblancher: Unless your in the food production business then arent gardening/beekeeping expenses paid for with "post tax" income just as are grocery expenses?


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## snl

Once again this year, to keep my feeding costs as low as possible, I'm going to train my bees to rob Mark's hives while they are visiting in SC. Last year they had a difficult time managing the I95 flight corridor, but after having them go thru some rigorous training this past month, I'm confident of success!


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## sqkcrk

Good luck w/ that snl.


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## Ian

ha ha ha ha


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## alblancher

Jim

Yes the costs of prepping a garden are post tax expense but similar to bees you can reduce these costs. Make your own potting medium from bulk materials (reuse wax cappings and foundation), save and re-plant seed from productive plants (make splits from your best hives), use less store purchased fertilizer by making use a natural compost, manure and mulches (natural or bulk purchase of pollen, mineral salts, eos). 

When I was a kid we had the most productive fig trees because after we cleaned fish the waste went into the ground. Never used commercial fertilizers on the fig trees.

I have a bunch of fruit trees that aside from the cost of an occasion insecticide spray and a couple of handfulls of balanced fertilizer produce all the canned, frozen and fresh fruit we need for the year. I use this fruit to make our own yogurts and pies. A gallon of milk is about $4.50 a 4 oz serving of activia yogurt is about 80 cents. For the cost of a gallon of milk and a bit of splenda I can make 32 - 4 oz servings of yogurt, for a total savings of $ 21.10 that's after tax income so real cost is? My homemade yogurt is cheaper, better tasting, healthier and incredibly easy to make. 

Similar to the discussions in this thread if you can take bulk or naturally available materials, put a little effort into making what you need you can save a lot of money.

Al


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## Specialkayme

Even if we assume that you get paid from your 9-5 job on salary, or you are paid hourly and there is a finite amount of time you can work (most employers don't allow employees to work overtime "at will" without limit), the question really becomes what is your "best use" of time. Your time, just like your income, is finite and fixed. You can only do so much on any given day, be it enjoyment or work. In the end I may only have about 6 hours that I can elect to use. Now, if making yogurt takes 2 hours (I have no idea how long it takes, but just saying), is it worth 2 hours to me to save $5.76 on the cost of store bought yogurt? To me it isn't. But lets say it is to you. The real question becomes what is your better savings option, the $5.76 you save in yogurt by making your own, or the $25 you save on beekeeping equipment by making your own? I follow the same logic on everything else that is on my "to do" list. Saving $100 by cutting my own grass, yes please. I'll choose that over saving $1.00 by growing my own lettuce. If I have overtime that I can work (or more time at work on a salary job to increase my chances of a raise next year), it may be more valuable for me to cut my own grass than it is to work. But it might be more valuable for me to work than make my own jam. In the end of the week (or month, or year) whenever I run out of things I can do, I buy the rest. So to me it isn't so much about "pre tax" or "post tax" dollars, time at work or time at projects, hobby vs. job. It's more about maximum use of my time, and getting the most effective savings I can when I can. The rest of it really falls downhill.

As far as the original post goes, I find the most effective cost saving method that I have is no longer experimenting with equipment. I have tried many different types of equipment (all mediums, all deeps, deeps & mediums, deeps & shallows, ventelated inner covers, tele covers w/ inners, migratory covers, solid bottom boards, screened bottom boards, cheap frames, expensive frames, wood frames, plastic frames, large cell, small cell, no foundation, all kinds of types of feeders, and feeds, using wood made from white pine, yellow pine, whiteboard, plywood, cedar (although very briefly), and cypress, to name just a few ). Every time I try something new I find there may be a better way to do it, and I switch. The costs are astronomical, and you end up with hundreds of dollars of "extra" or converted equipment. Better to just find one person's way of doing things and model your operation around them. Then make VERY MINOR tweaks down the road to adopt it to you, but never try to change entirely in any direction.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Specialkayme said:


> I'll choose that over saving $1.00 by growing my own lettuce.


I have no argument with _most _of your analysis, however, garden grown lettuce (or tomatoes, etc) are simply not the same product that is available in grocery stores. No matter how much money you pay, you can't get "_just picked_" fresh produce from the store, like you can from your garden.


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## snl

Rader Sidetrack said:


> No matter how much money you pay, you can't get "_just picked_" fresh produce from the store, like you can from your garden.


You are correct, but you can that "just picked" fresh produce from a local farmer's market.......


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## alblancher

Yes I agree 100% If I only had 5 or 6 hours of free time a week then my decisions would be different. I guess a young person with a wife, children, new career, family and social obligations is in a completly different situation then a person established in their career or semi-retired. My cost benefit time analysis is based on "free" time. If you have no free time then the math falls apart. I no longer have to work a 40 hour week to pay my bills or work overtime to impress my boss. I can chose to swap non-productive time for hive time without affecting my other obligations.

I think the members of this site have gone a long way to educating me about how to save money on equipment and treatment options. Except for a couple of nucs I lost the first year the money I have invested in beekeeping is still in service. Even though I lost the two hives from my original nucs I was able to harvest more then enough honey from them to pay for the feed I used and at least one of the nucs. 

BTW We are looking at $3 for a small bunch of leaf lettuce. I know that because I think my next step is a greenhouse for personal use and sale at the local markets. Raw sweet corn right out of the field, tomatoes picked fresh from the vine, drycured pecan smoked bacon and fresh turnip greens are just about priceless! You know getting old isn't half bad when I think about it a bit


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## BeeGhost

I believe time can only be factored in if its your profession. I know I would rather spend two hours at the bee yard vs. even one hour paving. I pave and do other things because its my income, I do bees because its an interesting hobby. 

Every time a commercial / sideliner guy goes to the bee yard it's pure business. I put gas in my truck using money from my job, the guys that do this for a living count on the bees to put fuel in their tanks.

But those same guys might have hunting for a hobby, so money and time spent on that is leisure money and time that don't count!

Oh ya, so far I'm probably about a third of the way of paying off my hobby, at least the equipment portion of it! LOL


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## Keith Jarrett

BeeGhost said:


> I pave and do other things because its my income, I do bees because its an interesting hobby.


Well ok then BG, as soon as you get another 3" lift of AC down, grab the hive tool and run.


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## BeeGhost

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well ok then BG, as soon as you get another 3" lift of AC down, grab the hive tool and run.


LOL, most days it's like that when I do get to the bees after work! But the bees are my down time before the commute home where I'm met by 4 of my own kids plus the neighborhood kids to play whiffle ball in the park!


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## jim lyon

Wiffle ball?? Ahhh those were the days.:thumbsup: We used to cut a hole in a piece of plywood for a strike zone and prop it up behind the batter. If the ball went through the hole it was a strike, no arguments. Of course we always found something else to argue about.


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## BeeGhost

Yes Jim, it's good times for sure! We have kids from 5 to 11 playing and everyone gets along.......they kinda have to since I am the full time umpire and pitcher!LOL

It's just good to see the kids out playing in the park rather than sitting behind a tv playing video games!


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## Michael Palmer

jim lyon said:


> We used to cut a hole in a piece of plywood for a strike zone and prop it up behind the batter. If the ball went through the hole it was a strike, no arguments.


We drew a strike zone on a wall in the school yard and called it stick ball.


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## squarepeg

Michael Palmer said:


> We drew a strike zone on a wall in the school yard and called it stick ball.


now a days, you would have to have instant replay for the challange to make that work.


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## Adam Foster Collins

Specialkayme said:


> ...I find the most effective cost saving method that I have is no longer experimenting with equipment. I have tried many different types of equipment... Better to just find one person's way of doing things and model your operation around them. Then make VERY MINOR tweaks down the road to adopt it to you, but never try to change entirely in any direction.


So after all the experimentation, what did you settle on? What are you using now?

Adam


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## waynesgarden

Adam Foster Collins said:


> So after all the experimentation, what did you settle on? What are you using now?
> 
> Adam


Not to speak for Specialkayme, but one should be interested in settling on what works for him or her. I could tell you what what works for me but it may not apply to someone that can no longer lift 10 frame mediums or can toss 10 frame deeps full of honey around all day like it was nothing.

Actually, I can tell you what works for me but I haven't stopped experimenting yet. There really are a number of things that work for me but the advice to standardize is good. As I increase further, I know I'll have to stop fooling around and settle into a rut.

Wayne


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## BeeGhost

Waynesgarden has it.................cost cutting can relate to the individual!

A young buck with a strong back doesnt need a $2000 hoist system, he can toss full supers all day long, then someone my age gets smarter and buys the hoist to make the job easier and easier on the back!! Or an even smarter person buys a lift of some sort and loads 4 way pallets to become more efficient!!

Im learning as I go through observation and others and my own opinions.

I am going to go to solid bottom boards because they are quicker to make and I dont have to buy the wire anymore. I have had DWV in my colonies even with SBB, and today I checked on a couple bee trees and noticed bees with DWV..........and they have a solid bottom board so to speak. There is no difference other than more work and more cost to make SBB.

Im going to modify a plywood migratory cover a couple different ways to allow ventilation and a top entrance with a cored out feeding hole to place a bucket on.

Im going to phase away from ventilated inner covers because they are time consuming to build and again, more cost. I would rather buy plywood and build more nucs to sell or use myself.

I dont know, my mind and ideas keep changing as time goes by, but I am trying to be more efficient so I can experiment with other aspects of beekeeping like queen rearing and making nucs and such. And if I can save more money and become more efficient, I can spend that money on more hives and increase my colony count!!


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## minz

I am with BeeGhost. I went to the shop specify last year to make shallows for checker boarding and could not convince myself to cut my lumber down when it would work for mediums. Now I am planning lumber and have a stack of 6” boards. If I make shallows then I need to make more frames (if I buy frames the project cost me more than I saved). :scratch:
As for cost: I find it costs me more to idle than to build. I do not idle well, I internet shop, eat and think about ‘requeening’ (now that would be a cost). The other day I was pushing 9’ rough cut through the table saw and was getting tired. I thought about the ‘cost’ of leaving my finger on the table and stopped. :lpf:Only half done but money ahead.


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## Acebird

Specialkayme said:


> Every time I try something new I find there may be a better way to do it, and I switch. The costs are astronomical, and you end up with hundreds of dollars of "extra" or converted equipment.


Or better to have planted that lettuce and not have wasted all that time.


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## Specialkayme

Adam Foster Collins said:


> So after all the experimentation, what did you settle on? What are you using now?


Solid bottom boards and migratory tops. I only buy (or build) deep boxes and frames now. I have plenty of mediums and shallows that I use when I'm in a bind for space (or honey flow). I suspect the mediums and shallows will probably get filtered through, eventually I may be all deeps. I do have some screened bottom boards and telescoping tops lying around, but when they give out I probably won't replace them. No upper entrances. Bottom boards are made from cabinet grade plywood and whiteboard wood. Boxes usually from whiteboard or pine, depending on what I can find. I use very expensive paint though. It pays for itself and then some. Robber screens when needed. I use wax foundation, and if I'm in a bind for frames I'll order some preassembled ones with plastic foundation. I do make some plywood nucs, but I usually only use these as swarm traps and transportation nucs. Other nucs are just 5 frame equipment.

I think that covers it all?


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## squarepeg

sounds really sound sk. almost exactly what i do, except the top.


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## Adam Foster Collins

Specialkayme said:


> ...No upper entrances. Bottom boards are made from cabinet grade plywood and whiteboard wood. Boxes usually from whiteboard or pine, ...?


Two questions:

• Why no upper entrance?

• What is 'whiteboard'?

Thanks,

Adam


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## squarepeg

for me, no upper entrance to keep out wax moths, shb, and would be robbers. i do have screened vents up there though, kind of like the attic vents in your soffit.


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## AramF

Here is another cost savings idea. Instead of 20 inch migratory cover, make 24 inch migratory cover. In the extra 4 inches drill two holes for jar feeders. When you feed, slide these 4 inches over the frames, for fast in-hive feeding. When done feeding, slide them holes outside of the hive. Now you have an innercover/migratory cover hybrid equipment. I just put a brick over mine to keep it in place, but if you wanted to, you could nail two bars on the top side when using it as inner cover, and offset them 4 inches with other two bars on the other side, when using them as migratory cover. If you use 4 foot plywood, the 24 inch cut eliminates waste.

Another benefit of having the jar on the side, is if the syrup leaks, in leaks over the ends of frames, so the queen and workers are less likely to be drowned than with center hole.


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## BeeGhost

AramF,

Good idea there! I like it!


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## squarepeg

very cool indeed. and if you still wanted some small screened vents, they could go on the side of the box.

i've always thought the dead air space between the inner and outer cover was a good idea though, and i like to put a little foam there in the winter to prevent condensation on the 'ceiling' of the hive.


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## sqkcrk

AramF said:


> Here is another cost savings idea. Instead of 20 inch migratory cover, make 24 inch migratory cover. Now you have an innercover/migratory cover hybrid equipment.


A. You must not do any migrating.
B. How do you get a Top Cover on your hybrid cover?


----------



## deknow

.....as mark suggests, the reason it's called a migratory cover is so hives can be pushed close to each other for transport....adding extra length defeats this purpose.
One of the advantages I see with a migratory cover is that there is nothing for the wind to grab onto...again, added length is a problem.

Deknow


----------



## Michael Palmer

deknow said:


> One of the advantages I see with a migratory cover is that there is nothing for the wind to grab onto...again, added length is a problem.
> 
> Deknow


One disadvantage I see in the north, with a migratory cover is there is nothing to stop the wind from sucking heat from a poorly fitting cover.


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## sqkcrk

Is why it is called a migratory cover. It ain't meant to stay in the North.

Fancier mogratory covers I have seen would have no trouble overwintering in The North Country. But I wouldn't consider them cost saving. Not in the initial cost of producing them.


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## Ian

migratory covers work fine here. Just have to make sure the tops fit on nicely, but that goes with any top.
Bees do a good job gluing a sealing cracks I find. But ya, this time of year I like to leave the hives alone. I do not like to break the seals


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## Specialkayme

Adam Foster Collins said:


> • Why no upper entrance?


I'm not convinced they are as helpful as others claim. Tom Seeley found that swarms prefer one entrance, in the bottom of the nest. Most feral hives I find only have one entrance, not two (although they aren't always at the bottom of the hive). I have found that upper entrances does help with heat during our intense summers, but it also gives me greater robbing issues. I haven't seen any honey yield advantage either. It doesn't justify the cost of an extra piece of equipment in my book.



Adam Foster Collins said:


> • What is 'whiteboard'?


Cheap white pine. They call it "whiteboards" at home depot or lowes.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins

Specialkayme said:


> ...Cheap...pine...


Wow, I didn't know those two words ever appeared in the same sentence anymore. Crazy how much the price of wood has gone up. The old house I lived in last, had a roof deck and attic floor made from 1x pine boards - some of which were more than two feet wide and 20 feet long.

Now an 8' knotty pine 1x12 is $15.

Adam


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## Acebird

deknow said:


> One of the advantages I see with a migratory cover is that there is nothing for the wind to grab onto...again, added length is a problem.
> 
> Deknow


It is more likely that it is the Bernoulli affect causing lift that removes a cover not the little edge being pushed by the wind. Telescoping covers do have more area but are also heavier. A rock, brick or pail of water, he, he, solves the problem.


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## DonShackelford

ralittlefield said:


> I need to find a way to justify buying a bandsaw


I build my own stuff but not on a band saw. I have considered getting one since a 2x12 is not much more expensive than a 1x12, and a band saw would make that cut. 
Anyone here doing this?


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## Acebird

Don, the most versatile tool is a table saw, (not counting a Shop Smith) next comes a drill press. After you have acquired these two power tools it is a toss up between a router, band saw and a lathe. That is old school. Today I would say a power nailer takes precedence. Everything is a trade off between set up time and efficiency. A shop smith can do everything but set up time in not considered with a shop smith.
So, if you are starting with nothing start with a table saw, then drill press and from there you have to decide what you will use more. Maybe a power nailer is cheaper and you will go that way.

If you were talking production as in efficiency you would want a radial arm saw but for small stuff the chop saw has taken that function over today. Chop saws are cheap so maybe you want to go that way after the table saw and drill press.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird, maybe you need to read DonShackleford's post again. He is talking about resawing 2"x12" boards into 1"x12" boards. Aside from the bandsaw that Don is already considering, *None *of the tools you recommended can resaw a 12" board! :scratch:


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## BeeCurious

"Don S" was talking about bandsaws..... and you are suggesting every other tool.

Why?


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## minz

That would be a lot of work to resaw a 12” plank. I think it would take a portable mill. Even with a riser block on my 14” bandsaw I don’t think I could do it. The inlaws were shopping a portable mill and picked a bigger one up for less money when they walked in to place their order. Apparently the saw was on order and not picked up upon delivery. The paid the remainder and everybody was happy. That mill would resaw a dry 12x. I never seem to bee that lucky.


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## ralittlefield

DonShackelford said:


> I build my own stuff but not on a band saw.


Actually, I was talking about a band saw mill to cut lumber from logs.


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## ralittlefield

Acebird said:


> A shop smith can do everything but set up time in not considered with a shop smith.


I have an old shop smith and I would trade it any day for a good cabinet table saw. It is way under powered and max blade size is too small.


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## ralittlefield

Rader Sidetrack said:


> , *None *of the tools you recommended can resaw a 12" board! :scratch:


Correct.


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## Daniel Y

I own a Grizzly 555. With a riser block it can resaw a 2X12.


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## DonShackelford

Rader Sidetrack said:


> He is talking about resawing 2"x12" boards into 1"x12" boards.


That is correct. Saw mills in my area don't handle pine. The cheapest roughsawn wood I can find is poplar for $.75 per bf. A 2x12 at the local big box store would go a lot further if it was split into 2 1x12's. I do wonder about the feasibility of this though, would the sharpening and replacement cost of the bandsaw blades outweigh the savings?

I am working on another cost saving idea that I plan to try this winter. As a carpenter, I've noticed what I call the "western building tradition" is to use solid materials for construction. The oriental building methods use much thinner materials supported by thin bracing members. In short, they do more with less at the expense of a more intricate assembly process.
A 4x8 sheet of 3/8" BCX exterior plywood typically used for soffits is about $15. I have made 5 frame nucs out of it and banded all edges with 3/8" x 1 1/2" rips I make from 2x6's. These make very durable boxes. The 3/8' plywood and the 3/8" supports combined make a standard 3/4" thick box that is interchangeable with standard boxes. More tedious to make, but way cheaper than 1x12.
Since my setup for production hives is 8 frame deeps, it's not too much of a stretch to start making them like the 5 frame nucs.


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## ralittlefield

DonShackelford said:


> That is correct. Saw mills in my area don't handle pine. The cheapest roughsawn wood I can find is poplar for $.75 per bf. A 2x12 at the local big box store would go a lot further if it was split into 2 1x12's. I do wonder about the feasibility of this though, would the sharpening and replacement cost of the bandsaw blades outweigh the savings?


I have never tried this as I do not have a band saw capable of it, but it is done by others. I would think that the trick would be rigging up a fence high enough to support the vertical 2x12. Also you will lose a little to the saw so you will not end up with (2) 3/4" boards. They will be a little thinner. Especially if you have to run them through a planer to finish them.


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## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> "Don S" was talking about bandsaws..... and you are suggesting every other tool.
> 
> Why?


Because a band saw cannot be justified.


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## DonShackelford

Acebird said:


> Because a band saw cannot be justified.


I just priced out 2x12x8' compared to 1x12x8' at Menards. The 2x12 is $9.38 while the 1x12 is $10.07. If a band saw can make two slightly thin 1x12's in a practical manner, then it would seem a justified expense.
I was hoping to hear from experienced band saw users.


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## Acebird

DonShackelford said:


> If a band saw can make two slightly thin 1x12's in a practical manner, then it would seem a justified expense.


As opposed to just going to a lumber mill and buying 1x12 slabbed lumber or somebody local that does this and already has the equipment?


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## sqkcrk

DonShackelford said:


> If a band saw can make two slightly thin 1x12's in a practical manner, then it would seem a justified expense.


Isn't a 2X12 about 1 3/4 inch thick? Or closer to 1 1/2? Cut in two you end up w/ 3/4 inch stock, unplaned. You gonna plane the rough side? Seems like work to me.


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## jim lyon

It's also important to remember that 2" lumber is a lower grade than 1". When 2" is ripped in half in any direction a usable board may well not result because of larger knots.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> Because a band saw cannot be justified.


Yes Acebird.... you're right again! Buying a lathe would make more sense.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Because a band saw cannot be justified.


Hmmm, back in post #179 you reccomended that _Don Shackelford_ acquire a bandsaw. :scratch:



Acebird said:


> Don, the most versatile tool is a table saw, (not counting a Shop Smith) next comes a drill press. After you have acquired these two power tools it is a toss up between a router, *band saw* and a lathe.


Since Don has said he already builds his own equipment, no doubt he already owns a tablesaw, so according to _you _a bandsaw is a a very reasonable purchase.

Another Ace FlipFlop! :digging:

Perhaps with your _steel-trap_ engineer's mind you could explain to us peasants how to use a lathe for building apiary equipment.


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## Acebird

You mount the boxes (individually) to a face plate and bore a hole for the entrance or vent.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Isn't a 2X12 about 1 3/4 inch thick? Or closer to 1 1/2? Cut in two you end up w/ 3/4 inch stock, unplaned. You gonna plane the rough side? Seems like work to me.


New Surfaced 4 side lumber is now 1 1/2 for 2 inch nom. The saw kerf will take about about 3/32. So it will be under 3/4 and usually warps like crazy.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> You mount the boxes (individually) to a face plate and bore a hole for the entrance or vent.


"Say good night, Gracie."


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## sqkcrk

"Goodnight Gracie"


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## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Aside from the bandsaw that Don is already considering, *None *of the tools you recommended can resaw a 12" board! :scratch:


You can buy 2x12 lumber rip it in half and half again with a table saw. Now you have 4 pieces of 1x6 that you can assemble and let the bees deal or glue two pieces together to make 1x12's. You are just not resourceful enough Rader.


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## Rader Sidetrack

sqkcrk said:


> He used the table saw to cut notches the length of the timbers so splines could gp between two timbers.
> ....
> 
> I'm not sure that the blade would cut 12 inches, but I recall seeing it cut a very thin slice offr the side of one of those 8 inch timbers.


Thanks for the explanation. I own a log style house (It was built for a previous owner) that came with all the assembly directions paperwork as provided by the manufacturer. Most customers likely hire an on-site contractor to do the assembly, but the instructions are written such that a homeowner could do themselves (if they had the _chutzpah _and equipment to lift those beams.) So I have studied that paperwork out of general curiosity.

The splines typically extend only into only a small portion of the top and bottom of each log. Enough to provide a good mechanical connection once the log beams are stacked. It would not take a table saw capable of cutting a 12" tall beam to cut the slots for those splines. But of course preparing your own beams from raw logs for your log house is quite an impressive undertaking, and you friend may have had rare equipment available. Whatever saw used would need to be heavy duty enough to not be crushed by the weight of the beams involved. Some of the beams in my house are 6"x12" by about 30 ft long.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Ian -

The MisterSawmill is a very nice product. You are fortunate to have a friend /neighbor that owns one. And for those that can't quite swing $6000 + there are some alternatives 

http://www2.northerntool.com/logging/milling.htm
There are a number of relatively low cost choices at the link above, but this one is quite simple:








$100 not counting the saw.


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## minz

I don’t know, I seen the guy with the funny hat on public broadcasting take a hand saw and rip a 2x12. Funny thing was he was holding the saw backwards and cutting at himself while he sat on the end of the plank. I have also seen a show for guys with under powered Central machinery bandsaws with cheap blades (like me) that rip a deep kirf on each side of the lumber to be resawn (table saw) so that the bandsaw blade does not wander. BTW the Alaskan mill shown above my post works better with a ripping blade, that and the greater your angle the better chip you will get.
but we are really getting off track of the OP


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## Ian

Graham,
yes that looks like quite the saw,
can not imagine using one of those, just imagine how long it would take to make a pass! I have a hard enough time keeping my chain saw sharp cutting across the tree lol, it would be a long cut!
They do not talk about cooling the chain in their sales pitch, over heating would definitely be a slow down


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## sqkcrk

minz said:


> I don’t know, I seen the guy with the funny hat on public broadcasting take a hand saw and rip a 2x12. Funny thing was he was holding the saw backwards and cutting at himself while he sat on the end of the plank.



I bet you are writing about my old Boss Roy Underhill. Knowing him, I imagine he was using a Japanese Handsaw which cuts on the pull stroke, not while pushingt. It keeps the blade from chattering, making a smoother cut.

I don't know if a pit saw is cheaper than a table saw, but I imagine it is. Two people can use that to make a log into one inch stock. I think it would be nearly impossible to cut a 2x12 in half w/ one w/ much accuracy.


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## sqkcrk

Ian said:


> Graham,
> yes that looks like quite the saw,
> can not imagine using one of those, just imagine how long it would take to make a pass! I have a hard enough time keeping my chain saw sharp cutting across the tree lol, it would be a long cut!
> They do not talk about cooling the chain in their sales pitch, over heating would definitely be a slow down


Takes a different chain w/ rip teeth.


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## DonShackelford

After researching and completing the splitting of a 10' 2x12, I have to conclude it is not a cost saver for me. My apologies for turning this thread into "what could be a cost saver" rather than "what was a cost saver".

Finding used 1/4" 4'x8' corrugated aluminum sign board was my biggest cost saver. I made $2,000 worth of outer covers for under $300.

My second saver was finding used 1/2" plywood made for outdoor signage. Made a bunch of 5 frame nucs. This type of plywood doesn't bow and fall apart. 

My third cost saver came from being a remodeler. I make standard deep box ends, and stack in 1x from old door frames for the sides. Old door frames are great lumber. New door frames are not. 

A cost saver I am planning for the spring is bringing up deep singles in April and selling some to help pay expenses. I placed an ad on Indianapolis Craigslist and am already getting takers.


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## Ian

and a file



sqkcrk said:


> Takes a different chain w/ rip teeth.


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## Acebird

Can you file the new chains? I thought they were hardened and sharpening was done by grinding or just replacing once you get through the case harden metal.


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## crofter

They are modified regular chains. Basically different angles and some methods remove parts of some cutter top plates. It makes a difference but a chainsaw makes near a 3/8 kerf. That takes a lot of energy and wastes a lot of wood. Regular file.

The carbide, and carbide coated teeth are for cutting RR ties and such and do not hold a keen edge. No good for chainsaw milling.


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