# Ulster Hive - Mann Lake or Brushy Mountain?



## Ambassador

Although I'm planning on building an either 8 or 10 frame permanent observation hive this winter I'd like pick up an Ulster style observation hive for the time being so I can do a few beekeeping demos at my daughter's school. Both the Mann Lake and Brushy Mountain versions appear to be very similar. Does anybody here know how/if they differ or could you recommend one over another?


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## Ziva

I wanted to get the Ulster so I was really happy to see that Mann Lake is finally selling them------for the same price as Brushy Mt (ML= $145.95, BM=145.00) but Mann Lake has free shipping! (The shipping price is a killer!)

I called Mann Lake before ordering, and I'm so glad I did. The Mann Lake hive doesn't have a queen excluder built in, Brushy Mt does. Brushy Mt also includes a feeder which Mann Lake doesn't. The BIG issue for me was that the Mann Lake has a solid bottom board permanently attached. Brushy Mt has a screened bottom board with a slider board if you want to close it off.

I bought the Brushy Mt one. And I'm glad I did.

I had it at the County Fair last week for 3 days. The weather was hot and there was no AC in the building. I put a frame feeder with water in the hive. (the frames had bees, brood, pollen and honey). With the screened bottom, vents on top, and water in the hive, the bees kept it at the right temp and did excellently the whole three days.

No way would I have done that without a screened bottom. I don't think they would have survived closed up for 3 days in the solid bottomed Mann Lake hive. I'd just rather be safe than sorry.

But, that's just my opinion. Maybe someone else has experience with the Mann Lake Ulster.

(Also, I bought mine to use at the Fair where it would be used for days (as well as just short presentations at schools etc). If you are only going to have the bees in it a few hours the solid bottom is probably okay).


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## Ambassador

Thanks for the first hand info. Sounds like an no-brainer with the extra ventilation. I think I remember reading on Michael Bush's site something about the bee space being too tight for brood to hatch with modding the hive. Do you know if this is a still a problem?


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## Phoebee

My wife and I ordered the Brushy Mountain observation hive today, and you're making me glad we did.

When we picked up our nucs a few weeks back, we were warned that that cardboard nuc boxes they came in had essentially no ventilation once the plastic plug went in the entrance. Best I can tell, they're Mann Lakes. Apart from the entrance, the only ventilation is a few pinholes in either end. They also apparently developed a load of condensation on the top covers. We've cut out holes and installed screens in the ends so we can use them for swarms, etc. Sounds like Mann Lakes doesn't appreciate ventilation.


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## Andrew Dewey

I have a Brushy Mountain OH and used it yesterday for a presentation at a fair. We had no issues except I wish I had marked the queen! Kids love to hunt her down and unless you have incredible patience or a queen who stays put, you'll have nightmares of queen hunting. If you are not in a hurry BM usually offers free shipping (at least east of the Mississippi) around Thanksgiving.


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## camero7

> I bought the Brushy Mt one. And I'm glad I did.


:thumbsup:


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## GreySquirrel

Mann Lake recently ran a sale on their observation hive, and being pleased with the quality of the items I have received from them in the past, I jumped on it. 

All I can say is it's quality top to bottom.

Regarding the above comments regarding construction, perhaps they took some hints from the Brushy Mtn. model because this mann Lake model has a ventilated bottom board with a closure board, plastic capped ventilation holes on the top, and a metal queen excluder between the observation area and the nuc box. 

The wood is dried pine and absolutely clear with no blemishes or knots anywhere. It also has removable shutters which I understand the Brushy Mtn. may not have.

I really couldn't be more pleased with the quality of the materials or construction.


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## KQ6AR

The BM one has a couple features that aren't included with the ManLake one.
Don't remember exactly what the differences where, so if the price is the same go with BM

I see Ziva above mentioned the differences I saw when comparing them.


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## JWChesnut

My Ulster style hive is home-made, but has two features I like -- 

1). The top fits on any random wood nuc box. This means that any and every nuc can be strategically appointed "observation hive" for a day. This reduces the pressure on the observation colony, and the substantial effort required to keep the nuc-sized colony from going swarmy. 

2). The upper frame can be insulated with mylar bubble and closed off with solid wood board. This means that bees will maintain brood temperature in that portion. I had real issues with chilled and abandoned brood before getting serious about warming up the upper frame.

The design where the bottom board (with a screen insert), and the top frame assembly are independent and simply are strapped to a standard nuc gives a lot of flexibility in terms of colony assignment -- the top can be replaced with standard nuc-migratory cover, and the hive reverts. Not near as pretty as varnished wood wonders -- but you know the straps give folks a sense of security.


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## chr157y

Does anyone have suggestions on using the Ulster as a permanent inside observation hive? That's my plan. I ordered one from Brushy Mountain on Cyber Monday, and the girl I spoke with said they have one in their office. I am thinking, I can always a super or another deep to give them more space if I need to. With another deep, it would be a full 10 frame hive. I also bought the Ulster mainly for presentations at my kdis school and to use during fairs when I'm selling lip balm and honey. Having it in the house year round is just an added bonus.


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## dixiebooks

I purchased the MannLake version but there is about 1-1/2" space between the face of the comb and the inside of the glass which is way over bee space limits. I installed the bees late one afternoon for an event the next day. By the morning of the event, bees were festooning on both sides and had started new comb on each side. The festooning bees totally obscured the comb which made the whole thing almost useless as an observation hive. -james


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## Michael Bush

>Does anyone have suggestions on using the Ulster as a permanent inside observation hive? 

I thought about it, but too much of what is happening is hidden. I don't know if they are well populated in the honey portion. I don't know if wax moths or SHB are taking over in that part of the hive. I need to see more of a hive when it's an observation hive, not only to observe, but because I don't want to haul it outside to inspect every few days. I want to minimize my interaction to times when they need an intervention.


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## IAmTheWaterbug

I've been asked to present some bees to a classroom in about 6 weeks, which sounds like fun! But I don't have an OH. Yet.

So, this was the situation as of 2.5 years ago. Has anything changed? 



Ziva said:


> The Mann Lake hive doesn't have a queen excluder built in, Brushy Mt does. Brushy Mt also includes a feeder which Mann Lake doesn't. The BIG issue for me was that the Mann Lake has a solid bottom board permanently attached. Brushy Mt has a screened bottom board with a slider board if you want to close it off.





GreySquirrel said:


> Regarding the above comments regarding construction, perhaps they took some hints from the Brushy Mtn. model because this mann Lake model has a ventilated bottom board with a closure board, plastic capped ventilation holes on the top, and a metal queen excluder between the observation area and the nuc box.
> 
> The wood is dried pine and absolutely clear with no blemishes or knots anywhere. It also has removable shutters which I understand the Brushy Mtn. may not have.





dixiebooks said:


> I purchased the MannLake version but there is about 1-1/2" space between the face of the comb and the inside of the glass which is way over bee space limits. I installed the bees late one afternoon for an event the next day. By the morning of the event, bees were festooning on both sides and had started new comb on each side. The festooning bees totally obscured the comb which made the whole thing almost useless as an observation hive. -james


Brushy Mountain's is $165. (Feeder included, frames not.), plus free shipping and no tax (but you have to go 75% of the way through the checkout process before you can see that shipping is free!).

Mann Lake's is $156 with free shipping and $11 tax.

And now Dadant has one for $160, but with few details on what's included and what's not. But they offer free shipping, and charge $15 tax.

So they're all about the same price, ±$10, which is far less important to me than functionality. I'm in California, so we're more likely to get too hot than too cold. I'll likely make up a nuc this week or next anyway, so it would be easy to just transfer it into one of these OHs the night before, then take it to work the next morning and then take it to the school in the afternoon. 

Anyone have opinions on any of these 3 brands, recently?


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## JTGaraas

I bought the Mann Lake product three (3) years ago - it has a queen excluder, screened bottom with sliding plastic board that is removable, and multiple ventilation holes (plus removable covers). I have used it for three (3) years during a six (6) day July fair without a problem. My exhibit area is adjacent to a open door, and I had a fan for additional air circulation. The temperature might reach 80-82F in the shade. Excellent product, and I too thought there was too much space between the frame and window, but no significant burr comb was ever created during the fair. I usually change frames mid-week; very easily changed. I suggest you buy six (6) small suitcase locks to prevent mischievous fingers doing stupid things.


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## brushwoodnursery

I just handled the Mann Lake Ulster a couple of weeks ago for a presentation and it is full featured with excluder, vented bottom, etc. I didn't have a full frame with bees in the top but the dimensions looked right. It had clips to hold the latches closed but I like JTGs idea of some tiny locks instead.


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## IAmTheWaterbug

JTGaraas said:


> I bought the Mann Lake product three (3) years ago.... Excellent product, and I too thought there was too much space between the frame and window, but no significant burr comb was ever created during the fair.


So the Mann Lake one has a bit too much space, and Michael Bush says of the Brushy Mountain version:


> The Brushy Mt. hives have 1 1/2" between the glass and when I put in frames of brood from a hive it was too tight a fit and the brood could not emerge and the bees absconded. I reworked the Brushy Mt. hives by adding a screen molding (available at the hardware store) which is 1/4" thick. I put it behind the hinges on the hinge side and behind the door as a stop on the opposite side and added one next to the door just to match the other side. This has worked perfectly and it is my most thriving hive now.


Is this still true of the Brushy Mtn version? Which error is easier to fix?


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## IAmTheWaterbug

JTGaraas said:


> I bought the Mann Lake product three (3) years ago - it has a queen excluder, screened bottom with sliding plastic board that is removable, and multiple ventilation holes (plus removable covers).


Does ML include a feeder?


> I suggest you buy six (6) small suitcase locks to prevent mischievous fingers doing stupid things.




They'd probably only do it once!


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## JTGaraas

Each year I try to do a walk-a-way split that is a perfect size to move to the observation hive for those 6-7 days of the Fair. They have had adequate honey stores, but you could easily put a frame feeder in the bottom (avoid spillage when moving it around). I also forgot to suggest that you put tape (or screen) on the inside of the hive’s opening hole to prevent someone opening up the hive entrance (which is latched, but not lockable). That way, even if they unlatch it, no bees escape. The problem has not occurred, but I also face that side of the hive away from view of the public as another precaution.


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## IAmTheWaterbug

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> So the Mann Lake one has a bit too much space, and Michael Bush says of the Brushy Mountain version:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brushy Mt. hives have 1 1/2" between the glass and when I put in frames of brood from a hive it was too tight a fit and the brood could not emerge and the bees absconded. I reworked the Brushy Mt. hives by adding a screen molding (available at the hardware store) which is 1/4" thick. I put it behind the hinges on the hinge side and behind the door as a stop on the opposite side and added one next to the door just to match the other side. This has worked perfectly and it is my most thriving hive now.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this still true of the Brushy Mtn version? Which error is easier to fix?
Click to expand...

It's my birthday , so I bought myself the Brushy Mountain OH. It arrived today.

The good news it that it comes with two frame feeders. One from Arne and one from Mother Lode.

The bad news is that I've never seen so much shipping damage on one product before. Despite the shipping box looking intact, the product has at least 7 distinct defects that appear to be caused by rough handling. I won't fault BM or the product yet; I've just sent them photos, and I'll give them a chance to make it right.

But the other issue is that the glass-to-glass spacing is now 2-1/4", which I think is wayyy too large. I've read that 1-3/4" is good, and 1-7/8" is acceptable.

But 2-1/4" just looks too big:










and there doesn't seem to be a good way to shrink the space. Should I just return it and get the Mann Lake one? Does anyone know the spacing on that? Does it come with a frame feeder?


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## brushwoodnursery

I'd email Mann Lake and ask. They also have nice frame feeders that are relatively inexpensive.


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## grozzie2

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> But 2-1/4" just looks too big:


A frame is 1 3/8. Bee space is 3/8, and you want it on both sides of the frame. 1 3/8 + 3/8 + 3/8 = 2 1/8. Seems about exactly where your ruler is.


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## IAmTheWaterbug

grozzie2 said:


> A frame is 1 3/8. Bee space is 3/8, and you want it on both sides of the frame. 1 3/8 + 3/8 + 3/8 = 2 1/8. Seems about exactly where your ruler is.


A frame is 1-3/8" wide at its widest point, but the bees don't draw comb out to the widest point. Otherwise, if we butted two frames against each other, there would be no bee space between them. There would be no space at all. 

If we assume that there _is_ bee space between two adjacent frames, then the bees must draw the comb out to a width of 1". That leaves 3/16" on either side, so two frames butted up against each other will each have 3/16" of space, leaving 2 x 3/16" = 3/8" of space between the combs.

Does that sound correct?

So if the comb is drawn to a width of 1", and we want a full 3/8" bee space on either side, then the glass pieces should be 1-3/4" apart. 

Michael Bush appears to have done the same math:



> 1 3/4" is just the right amount of space between the glass for an observation hive. 1 7/8" is ok.


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## brushwoodnursery

How long will it take them to burr up the inside face? Will there be so many bees up there with the extra space that it makes it hard to see eggs, larvae and maybe even the queen? Better spacing is probably worth the switch to a correct one. This is killing me because I had a brand new one from Mann Lake in my hands a month ago and I didn't measure it.


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## grozzie2

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> A frame is 1-3/8" wide at its widest point, but the bees don't draw comb out to the widest point. Otherwise, if we butted two frames against each other, there would be no bee space between them. There would be no space at all.


This is what happens when one responds, with math, before finishing that first cup of coffee, miss the details and get the wrong answer.....


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## IAmTheWaterbug

brushwoodnursery said:


> How long will it take them to burr up the inside face? Will there be so many bees up there with the extra space that it makes it hard to see eggs, larvae and maybe even the queen? Better spacing is probably worth the switch to a correct one. This is killing me because I had a brand new one from Mann Lake in my hands a month ago and I didn't measure it.


I sent a message last night to Mann Lake asking about 1) the exact clear space between the glass, and 2) whether or not a frame feeder is included. I hope to get an answer, soon.

Assuming that answers are good, I'll probably buy the Mann Lake one and return the Brushy Mountain one. But I'll wait until the ML arrives before I put the BM one in the return mail, so I can compare them side-by-side, with photos.


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## brushwoodnursery

ThumbsUpIcon!


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## IAmTheWaterbug

brushwoodnursery said:


> ThumbsUpIcon!


:thumbsup:


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## brushwoodnursery

I've heard it both ways.


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## IAmTheWaterbug

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> I sent a message last night to Mann Lake asking about 1) the exact clear space between the glass, and 2) whether or not a frame feeder is included. I hope to get an answer, soon.
> 
> Assuming that answers are good, I'll probably buy the Mann Lake one and return the Brushy Mountain one. But I'll wait until the ML arrives before I put the BM one in the return mail, so I can compare them side-by-side, with photos.


They never answered my email, but they answered the phone right away. :scratch: Must be old school.

Anyway, there definitely is _no_ frame feeder included, but as mentioned on the last page, the queen excluder is built in.

So I put a feeder in my cart for $7.95 and ordered the Mann Lake hive.

The guy on the phone measured the clear space between the glass at 2-1/2", which is even worse than the Brushy Mountain model, but I'll have to just try it out and then see if I can fix it if it's a problem.

Ordered!

(and BM agreed to take back my damaged hive)


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## IAmTheWaterbug

So a big thumbs-up on the Mann Lake hive. I got to compare the two, side-by-side, and ML wins, hands-down:






Other than the bee space issue, the only improvement I'd make to the ML hive is I'd put the latches for the top cover on the vertical ends, like it is on the BM version, so that I can screw a handle to the top of the lid and lift the whole hive with it.

As ML hive works now, attempting to lift the hive by the top cover causes stress on those latches perpendicular to their design.


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## brushwoodnursery

Thanks for taking the time to do this!


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## Nightgardener

Thanks for the in depth review, Waterbug. I was looking for information about the Mann Lake hive, and got confused by the earlier reviews in this thread. Looks like they paid attention to the criticisms from earlier posters and updated their design. Which says a lot about their business practices, when you think about it! I'm definitely going for the Mann Lake version. To the defense of Brushy Mountain, shipping damage can happen. I didn't watch the video where you're talking about the packaging, so it's possible that they messed that up. In any case, thanks again for taking to share this information with the rest of us; I'm ordering my observation hive today!


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## Michael Bush

The Ulster is more of a temporary place to put the queen while at a farmer's market etc. The bees won't build much on the glass. When you have bees in a observation hive permanently the space is important to prevent a lot of burr on the glass. or to allow you to put a drawn brood comb into the observation hive without the honey getting smashed against the glass.


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## Nightgardener

Thanks for the comment, Michael. Yes, I realize that this is not designed to keep bees permanently. This is my first year in keeping bees, and my reasoning was that I would use the Ulster Hive as a learning tool for myself. Who knows, if I get bitten by the bug (or stung) I might end up making some YouTube videos. So it was more of an impulse buy, and I would probably have been wiser to spend the money on another regular hive. Like I said, I'm a newbie, so this might be a silly question, but I should be able to use the Ulster Hive as a short time nuc, right? Or for transporting bees if I buy I buy more bees from another beekeeper? A little clunkier than a nuc, of course, but from my newbie perspective this is essentially just a nuc with an observation window attached to it!


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## Michael Bush

>Ulster Hive as a short time nuc, right? 

The problem with it outside is controling the temperature in the queen portion of the hive. If you put them down in the nuc and not in the "queen" portion this isn't so much of a problem. If you keep them inside, then the issue is that things could be going badly and you can't see what is happening in that bottom box.

>Or for transporting bees if I buy I buy more bees from another beekeeper? 

Of course. Any nuc can be used for transporting bees.


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## Nightgardener

Michael Bush said:


> >Ulster Hive as a short time nuc, right?
> 
> The problem with it outside is controling the temperature in the queen portion of the hive. If you put them down in the nuc and not in the "queen" portion this isn't so much of a problem. If you keep them inside, then the issue is that things could be going badly and you can't see what is happening in that bottom box.


Well, that makes sense. The more I learn the more I realize that these are not meant for permanent placement of bees. I have a book where the author keeps a (different type) observation hive inside and the bees leave via a plastic tube through the windowsill. It looks pretty neat, but it seems like an almost guaranteed swarming situation, which something I want to avoid, especially in my first year. So I'll probably take your advice and use it for short term study, only, and for transportation, if needed. Thanks again!


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## Michael Bush

I think every beekeeper should have an observation hive in their house and you should let them swarm at least once so you can watch it happen. Normally you can avoid it. You can see everything that is happening in a one frame deep observation hive so if you let them swarm it's because you're not paying attention.


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## brushwoodnursery

Totally agree! I've learned so much from them.


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## Nightgardener

Michael Bush said:


> I think every beekeeper should have an observation hive in their house and you should let them swarm at least once so you can watch it happen. Normally you can avoid it. You can see everything that is happening in a one frame deep observation hive so if you let them swarm it's because you're not paying attention.


I think that sounds like good advice in general, but I'd like to have a couple of years of experience under my belt before I try this. We live in an apartment, and I'm not sure if my girlfriend would appreciate having a hive indoors!  I want her to have a good experience with me keeping bees! There is a possibility I could do something in our basement storage room, which has a window to the outside. However, to begin with I might just bring in a frame now and then from the outside to see if I can learn something. This first year I only have one hive in our yard, and if it turns out I really enjoy keeping bees, I'll be setting up a few more hives next spring on some land that's recently become available to me. Thank you kindly for your comments, though; much appreciated!


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## IAmTheWaterbug

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> Other than the bee space issue, the only improvement I'd make to the ML hive is I'd put the latches for the top cover on the vertical ends, like it is on the BM version, so that I can screw a handle to the top of the lid and lift the whole hive with it.
> 
> As ML hive works now, attempting to lift the hive by the top cover causes stress on those latches perpendicular to their design.


So I finally put this to use back in June, putting a small captured swarm into it for a presentation to my son's youth service club. In general it worked very well, but with a few niggling faults that I may try to remedy during idle time this winter:


As mentioned previously, I like handles on everything.
So I put a handle on it, right in the middle of the top cover:








But when I lift up on it, it's lifting perpendicular to the latches, so the top cover comes up about 1/8":








Two bees wriggled out as I was handling the OH, which cause some mild panic amongst the audience. But the bees went straight to the living room window and stayed there, which made for a nice opportunity to talk about not panicking when you see a bee.
After putting the hive back into the their normal home, I could see that repeated lifting of the hive by this handles causes bees to get squished:








I think some 3/16" weather stripping under the top cover, along the edges, might prevent bees from escaping and getting squished.
But it doesn't fix the structural problem of stressing the latches 90-degrees off of their design axis. Ideally I'd like to have the ends of the top cover come out to the edge of the box, and then have the latches placed vertically, as they were with the Brushy Mountain design. Then the handle would lift along the proper axis relative to the latches. It wasn't a big deal with a small swarm, but if it were up and running for a few weeks, with 10 lbs of stored food, I wouldn't have so much confidence in the latches. 

The gap between the plexiglass panels is definitely more than bee space.
After being in here for less than 48 hours, they'd already started building comb where I don't want it:








I'd like to reduce that gap by 3/16" on either side. I'm still uncertain how I can do that without rebuilding the entire hive.


I'd still recommend this hive for most users, especially for very temporary use like this, but I'm definitely going to put in the weather stripping before bringing bees to a school presentation!


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