# Wax Coating Plastic Frames...



## BCB (Aug 21, 2016)

Getting ready to get started…

I have the frames that have the YELLOW plastic foundations…

I read they need painted with bee’s wax…

The ones I have do have a smell of bee’s wax…

Any thoughts?...

Thanks…BCB


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

I have had better luck with the triple-waxed black plastic, bonus- it's easier to see eggs. I tried the yellow stuff, the bees didn't like it as much as the black, and took longer to draw it out...but, they liked it better than the white, I have to beat them severely about the head and shoulders to get them to use the white stuff.

You might need to put extra wax on the yellow...it certainly won't hurt.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I rewaxed some year old Rite Cell last year because it had lost the beeswax smell, and the bees weren't drawing it out. It worked great, BUT it takes a lot of wax to get a good coat on it.

I have since swapped to double waxed Acorn foundation. It's got enough wax on it that the wax doesn't dissipate over a year. I just put some year old foundation on a hive today. It has enough wax on it from Acorn that it hasn't lost it's smell and the black plastic still has a visible coating of wax on it.

I used up all my Rite cell and won't be going back.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I use black plastic Pierco frames/foundations. They come with a factory-applied coat of wax which I improve by hand waxing.

It does take a fair amount of applied wax to do the job - I get only about 12-18 deep frames per pound of beeswax. I use a 2.5" foam paint brush, but some people have had luck with a foam paint roller. I melt it in an old crockpot I bought for $5 at a thrift shop. The wax goes on and builds up better when it isn't too hot. I try to do pretty big batches (at least 75-100 frames) at once since you lose some wax in the foam brush. I work outside because no matter how careful you are, you will flick little bits off and that's not something you want indoors on your furniture or floors. I think the best air-temps for doing it are about 70F.

It takes a bit of practice to get it right (and I make some wonky frames at first each year). I lightly stroke the face of the frame in the long direction, then the short direction and then on both of the diagonals. The key is building up the wax along the cell walls, and not getting much down in the cells. My supplier charges about $2/frame to do this, so it's one way I can save a bit of $$ since I am an unskilled woodworker and can't assemble boxes.

But once it's done, my bees take to the waxed plastic like ducks to water.

Enj.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

ML plastic frames come with a thin coating. 

The bees take to them better when extra wax is applied. 

The "warmed toilet paper roll" application seems to be a bit less wax consuming than painting on hot liquid wax. 

The bees seem to appreciate any extra wax that can reasonably be provided.


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

It helps so much to add wax to any kind of plastic foundation, they work it out much much faster than without. I wax every frame now.

I use a 4" roller from Harbor Freight and put it on heavy. Dipping in the hot wax melted a lot of the glue on the roller, but still works well enough.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

If you try Acorn, you won't have to wax any more frames. Period. If you like waxing them, by all means go ahead, but it's a time consuming, wax consuming process. In addition Acorn is a 5.1 cell size versus a 5.4 for others, so that means more brood per frame.


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## f650cs (Jun 16, 2014)

what do you mean by "warmed toilet paper roll" application?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I take a hand fitting brick of wax and rub it on. Its pretty fast and I believe it has advantages in getting the bees working the foundation. That said, there is no substitute for a good flow and bees wanting to expand to get comb drawn. Then they will draw completely unwaxed foundation.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

f650cs said:


> what do you mean by "warmed toilet paper roll" application?


'Sorry for the confusion. As described elsewhere on BeeSource - Use an empty TP roll is for a form. Pour in melted beeswax & let it cool. Strip the form and apply the wax like deodorant - easier if warmed slightly ( like over a candle, or torch, or pan of hot water). 

The wax soaked cardboard remnants make good fire starters.


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## MissMollyTN (Feb 19, 2017)

Hi, I'm looking to add wax to ritecell plastic frames. What grade/type of beeswax is best for this? I looked online, and many say 100% natural beeswax, but I assume the kind for candles/crafts may contain impurities or chemical residues(?). 
Also, how much should I be painting on? I've seen people say to add "a good amount", but I have no idea what that means. How much is too much?? Thanks, : )


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

A pound of beeswax will coat a bit over 100 frames. Have done lots of them and calculated it takes about 7/10th pound for 100 deep or medium foundations. (applied with a paint brush) Use a cheap metal mixing bowl as a double boiler so you don't ruin your wife's nice cookware.

Some people use a little more wax.


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## MissMollyTN (Feb 19, 2017)

Thanks for the info and tips everyone. Much appreciated 🐝!


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

aunt betty said:


> A pound of beeswax will coat a bit over 100 frames. Have done lots of them and calculated it takes about 7/10th pound for 100 deep or medium foundations. (applied with a paint brush) Use a cheap metal mixing bowl as a double boiler so you don't ruin your wife's nice cookware.
> 
> Some people use a little more wax.


I put a ton on  I'm not totally sure but I think I get about 40 frames or less per pound. Even with no flow on, they'll rework the wax until it's pulled out about halfway to 2/3s just from what's on the foundation. That's really giving them a great headstart and drawn comb is the most important resource a beekeeper has.

Give it a test, really roll it on thick and see how they do with it


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

aunt betty, I'm not doubting your measurements, using a paint brush must make a huge difference. I don't think I could get 50 frames done with 1 lb of wax that's why the Acorn double waxed is a much better deal for me, not to mention the time savings. I used a foam paint brush to paint the wax on mine. I only put a coat on thick enough to see each side of the foundation "shine" in the light while the wax was hot.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

My daughter "paints" my frames. Crockpot and regular paint brush. I've been told the foam brushes work better. I like them waxed with as much as you can apply without filling the middle of the cell. 

I haven't seen any difference with regard to color regarding the bees, but the "natural" colored ones are difficult to gauge how much wax you've applied.

Definitely worth it though, IMO. Seems they pull out them 3 times faster.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

I use a 4" foam paint roller like this one https://www.amazon.com/Shur-Line-03...=1489643704&sr=8-6&keywords=foam+paint+roller

Get the wax so it's all melted, but not any hotter and roll on a layer and then let sit for 15 minutes to cool, then keep repeating. Works best in cool temperatures. If you do this carefully you can build up the walls of the cells and not have any in the bottom. I use a lot of wax on mine probably a pound for 10 mediums and I get all my wax (excellent stuff by the way and a good price too) here from Ron Householder http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?331754-Beeswax-For-Sale-Free-shipping!!!!


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

I really gloop it on and a lot of wax gets in the bottom of the cells, but they just rework it into the walls of the cells. When I did this on black foundation, when I checked a few days later the bottoms were clean and black. Could save you a bunch of time. How do you like that roller? My harbor freight one is a piece. The glue melted holding the roller part on, so it keeps wanting to slide off....and the glue melted keeping the handle on as well. Getting annoying.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Branman said:


> I really gloop it on and a lot of wax gets in the bottom of the cells, but they just rework it into the walls of the cells. When I did this on black foundation, when I checked a few days later the bottoms were clean and black. Could save you a bunch of time. How do you like that roller? My harbor freight one is a piece. The glue melted holding the roller part on, so it keeps wanting to slide off....and the glue melted keeping the handle on as well. Getting annoying.


Same thing happens with a foam paint brush. The wax temp melts the hot glue that holds the whole thing together.


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

I use a crock pot, dedicated to the bees, and a chip brush, cheap brush you can buy at home depot for under a buck. 

Melt the wax in some water, crock pot on high. Dip the brush in paint it on, works great. 

I used the foam roller it kept freezing up on the roller as the wax coated it. Works great, but the brush is easier.


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## AstroZomBEE (Aug 1, 2006)

I use two kettles set up as a double boiler over a LP gas burner, just hot enough to liquefy everything. Dip a 6" paint roller into melted wax, apply to frame fast and furious, need not be neat. The roller needs to be left in the melted wax while not rolling, else it will cool and not roll properly.

Just don't put too much that the bees can't see the hex pattern below it. If you put too much burr comb may be prevalent.

We also used our dark wax for this job. Once the bees draw it out it's hard to tell it was dark to begin with.

Aaron


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

There's no need to go crazy. The other beeks around here do and I've looked at their hives and compared to mine. The rate it gets pulled is no different. Am using foundations that are already waxed then waxing them more. 

Wax is a precious resource. Have 7 pounds today and it will do 700 frames adequately. Sorry for disagreeing but it's my opinion and am sticking with it. Have stacks of new deeps with already double-waxed foundations ready to go. Getting anxious.

Using a chip brush like missybee but no water is involved.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

BCB said:


> I read they need painted with bee’s wax…
> 
> The ones I have do have a smell of bee’s wax…
> 
> Any thoughts?...


A few years back I read the same thing. The rage then was, add wax to plastic, but if you want comb drawn in a hurry, use foundationless, so I did a test. I started with a plain plastic frame, slightly modified, one half just as it came out of the box, the other half converted to foundationless:



A few days later, I lifted that frame out and found this, and if you look carefully, the side that is plastic has just as much, possibly slightly more comb than the side cut out to be foundationless:



A week later, lifted it again, the whole frame was drawn. I seem to have misplaced that photo. When all was said and done, I learned a few things from that experiment.

a) The bees drew both sides in the same amount of time
b) One side was nice worker cells, the side without foundation was all drone cells.

I did similar experiments puttting freshly waxed frames in with 'strait out of the box' frame and got a similar result, no measureable difference in how much comb they drew, and how fast they drew it out. During all of these experiments, I learned there are a few ways to ensure the bees dont draw much comb at all. The most effective way is to create an artificial brood break so that you get a 3 week period with no young freshly emerged bees in the colony. A colony without wax makers wont draw frames effectively at all. This is an easy experiment to reproduce, shake an entire colony onto new equipment creating an artificial swarm. They will draw comb like crazy for the first 10 days or so, then fill it all with brood. At that point, comb production will stop for roughly 4 weeks as they replenish the population. After the first round of brood has emerged and those cells are all filled with larvae again, then they will start producing more comb. Last summer I was trying to get comb onto non-standard size frames in a split box to be used as mating nucs and I did just that. To initially draw it out I shook an entire colony into the box with half size frames. I used bare frames without foundation for making up my 4 way mating nucs. The configuration was 10 half size frames on each side. 4 days after I shook the colony into that box this is what I found:-



They drew out 8 of them in the first 10 days, then stopped drawing comb altogether. It took about 4 weeks before they started drawing again, I had a feeder with light syrup on the whole time. Once they started into drawing more comb, in a couple of weeks they had most of the box (20 half size frames) fleshed out.

I've done a significant amount of experimenting with this subject, and have my own conclusions from it. If you want the bees to draw comb, there is a set of conditions that must be reached.

a -  You need a good healthy population of young bees in the colony
b - You need a flow happening, natural or artificial, they need nectar coming in
c - The bees need to perceive a need for comb, either in the brood nest or for storage
d - The bees must not be pre-disposed to swarming

If the conditions meet all of these requirements, the bees will draw comb like crazy, and it doesn't really matter how frames have been prepared. If any one of the 4 is missng, little / no comb will be produced. In the early season this can be a bit tricky because the bees tend to be pre-disposed to swarming, so feeding them a lot doesn't end up with the bees drawing comb for storage, instead they will backfill a brood nest and swarm out. Once we are past that time of year where swarming is the goal, well fed bees will draw out everything you put in the boxes. The other thing we have learned, fresh new frames in a honey super between two drawn often result in the two frames on either side of it being drawn out fat, and the new frame essentially ignored. But a new frame centered in the brood nest violates bees space, and they wont extend the cells like they do in the honey supers, that new frame will be drawn quickly if the population is strong with a good batch of healthy young bees. If I put a brand new plastic frame between two frames of emerging brood then check it 10 days later, invariably it will be combed out on both sides with open brood in most of the cells. Put that same frame out at the edge of the nest, 10 days later it may or may not be touched at all, and as often as not, the honey frame beside it has been 'fattened out' to store more honey. If the bees are not in the mode of expansion, they aren't going to draw more brood comb outside of the brood nest. If you want brood comb, the frame needs to be placed into a location where the bees want brood.

If you watch the videos by Michael Palmer on using nucleus colonies as resource factories, pay careful attention to the piece where he is placing new foundation into the nucs as they grow. When it's first made up, the honey frame goes against the divider where the bees will ultimately want the brood nest centered. This gets them moving honey, and if necessary they will build comb where they want to move the honey. Later when the second box goes on, again a foundation is placed into a spot where they want brood. The circumstances are carefully contrived to get the bees building new brood comb.

The devil is in the details. If you want the bees building comb, you have to create circumstances that prompt them to build comb. Adding extra wax to a plastic frame may help if conditions are marginal, but you will have far more success if you create optimal conditions that take advantage of the bees instincts rather than try force them to do it differently.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

@dynemd> Thanks for the tip to coat the paint roller and let it cool a bit to prevent getting wax on the bottom of the cells.

Phil


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

aunt betty said:


> There's no need to go crazy. The other beeks around here do and I've looked at their hives and compared to mine. The rate it gets pulled is no different. Am using foundations that are already waxed then waxing them more.
> 
> Wax is a precious resource. Have 7 pounds today and it will do 700 frames adequately. Sorry for disagreeing but it's my opinion and am sticking with it. Have stacks of new deeps with already double-waxed foundations ready to go. Getting anxious.
> 
> Using a chip brush like missybee but no water is involved.


I wasn't disagreeing with you, I just don't see how you're stretching the wax that far. I wasn't trying to put a heavy coat on, it's just how it's gone. You using the chip brush must be the difference.


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

I went through wax a lot faster when using the foam roller. And the bottom of the cells did get full, some of them, the bees still drew it out. 
The chip brush the wax coats nicely and it takes less. 

I use the crock pot with water, I dip the brush deeper to warm it, then up through the wax. We keep our house cool in the winter, the wax hardens fast on the brush.


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## Tom1617 (Oct 17, 2016)

grozzie2 said:


> A few years back I read the same thing. The rage then was, add wax to plastic, but if you want comb drawn in a hurry, use foundationless, so I did a test. I started with a plain plastic frame, slightly modified, one half just as it came out of the box, the other half converted to foundationless:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for your info...
I am having the syrup backfilling issue in the brood comb now... So I stopped feeding them and added plastic with extra wax on top of my 2 deeps for now. I have 3 frams where the queen in laying now about a salad plate size each in the middle deep. When you had the back filling going on what was the best thing to do to get the brood frames emptied out and ready for brood again. I think I started feeding too early. Thanks again.


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## MissMollyTN (Feb 19, 2017)

I've seen people mention adding the extra to "freshen" up the wax smell (for the bees). 
I'd like to do mine this weekend. Our bees are coming in 3-4 weeks. 
Is it too far ahead to do this now? (If so, what time frame do you all recommend?) 
My plan was to keep them in clear lidded storage totes (to keep them "fresher" until then). The ground's too wet for garden/yard work, so it's a great day to get it out of the way. 
Just not sure the timing's good. Thanks!


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

MissMollyTN said:


> I've seen people mention adding the extra to "freshen" up the wax smell (for the bees).
> I'd like to do mine this weekend. Our bees are coming in 3-4 weeks.
> Is it too far ahead to do this now? (If so, what time frame do you all recommend?)
> My plan was to keep them in clear lidded storage totes (to keep them "fresher" until then). The ground's too wet for garden/yard work, so it's a great day to get it out of the way.
> Just not sure the timing's good. Thanks!


I don't think it''s too far out. I'd get the task out of the way now!


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Tom1617 said:


> Thanks for your info...
> I am having the syrup backfilling issue in the brood comb now... So I stopped feeding them and added plastic with extra wax on top of my 2 deeps for now. I have 3 frams where the queen in laying now about a salad plate size each in the middle deep. When you had the back filling going on what was the best thing to do to get the brood frames emptied out and ready for brood again. I think I started feeding too early.


A little thread drift, but this is the crux of the problem for folks with a limited supply of drawn comb. In the spring they will start backfilling when we want them to build more comb. If you are feeding, the first step is to remove the feed. Backfilling in the brood nest is a sure sign they are headed into swarm preparations, or they are being overfed if you have feed on. Overfeeding in the spring will surely result in swarms rather than more drawn comb.

When we had a limited number of colonies, only 2 and then after a couple years up to 6, we approached each and every colony with the attitude that they were a 'precious commodity' and we would work endlessly to try 'fix' whatever was thought was wrong. Over time, we found that we always had one or more that just refused to build comb early and would head into swarm preparations no matter what we did. Particularly in our first couple of years when we didn't really understand the flows in our area, we would overfeed a lot in the early spring, then in May and June end up chasing swarms almost endlessly. The net result, more bee colonies, not much honey. From all that, what we learned was this. From any given colony in any given year you can get

a) More bees
b) More drawn comb
c) Honey

Pick two, you wont likely get all three in a year. Later as the colony counts increased and we started to understand this better we started taking a completely different approach. Our philosophy now is to watch what the bees in each colony are telling us and manage accordingly. Our philosophy is to manage the space for nectar storage and the nest as two separate and independent items. We start by putting on a honey super (drawn) rather early, we want them on by the start of the maple bloom, typically the fourth week of March around here. After the first super goes on, we check about once a week, and any time we see nectar (not capped, just nectar) in 7 of the frames, another super goes on. The goal is to make sure there is always space for storing fresh nectar above the brood nest.

In the brood nest we do things differently. Any time we check a colony and find there are no empty cells in the nest where the queen can lay, we place a drawn brood comb into the center of the nest. The goal is to ensure there is always space for the queen to lay. We will keep doing this until we see new wax in the hive. If we see new wax, then instead of a drawn frame, a fresh new one and I place it between two frames of capped, preferably one of them emerging. On the next go around, if that one is drawn and full of brood, they get another new frame, otherwise they may get another drawn frame.

We will start raising new queens by the second week of May, that's when our overnight temperatures stop taking a big plunge every night. The period between mid April and when we have cells ready is the difficult part of the year. Some colonies are just intent on swarming. When we look at a colony and find swarm cells, the checklist changes. At the first sign of swarm cells, usually a cup with larvae, the first thing is to make sure there is empty space in the nest to lay, and there is space above for nectar storage. Next is find the queen to confirm a swarm has not already left. Add frames and/or supers as appropriate. I will scrape all the cells we find at that point, and make sure the nest has an empty frame for the queen to lay, then mark that colony as swarmy. On the next inspection we look again carefully in that colony. If we find cells again, even tho there is room for the queen to lay and there is storage space above, then we consider that colony bent on swarming and approach it very differently. I hate swarmy bees, they always swarm at the most inopportune time, and it's a huge interruption to go chasing swarms, worse if we dont see it leaving and then get the call that a swarm is hanging off a tree or eave of a neighbors house. A colony that swarms is not going to give us a decent honey crop, so, just admit it early and work accordingly. A swarm is good for one thing, and one thing only, they draw comb like crazy.

Reference the 'pick two' philosophy above. The big 'light bulb' moment for us was when we realized that not all colonies will be effective honey producers, so we would work with them instead of against them. A colony that is insistent on swarming today gets handled this way. I take the boxes off the bottom board and set them to the side. Set a fresh box on that bottom board, then go thru the originals and find the frame with the queen, it goes into the new box. Next we put 9 brand new frames into that box. The last step, shake ALL the bees off the rest of the frames in the original boxes into the new box. This colony has made it clear, they are bent on swarming, so we force the issue and swarm them artificially. Once all the bees are in the new box, scrape all the queen cells on the brood frames and go place them in other colonies to give other colonies a brood boost.

Three weeks later the expected result will be 6 or more frames drawn in the new box, and most of them full of brood. By then we will have cells ready, the box can be broken down to populate two nucs after dispatching the queen, give each of them a cell. This way we have done the 'pick two', the colony has given us more drawn comb, and now we have two colonies. Note also, we did NOT allow those swarm cells to be raised as new queens. Did I mention, I HATE swarmy bees. We have plenty of colonies that dont get into swarm mode early, I want to draw from those for our new queens this summer. I do NOT want to raise queens from stock that is pre-disposed to swarm early.

This will be our fourth year managing the bees in this manner thru the early season. Over the last 3 years we have had two swarms that we know of, from 15 to 20 colonies each season. In both cases, those were colonies marked early as swarmy, but we were out of drawn comb for adding to brood nests, and I delayed the process of shaking them into new equipment. We had just taken our supers off that had maple honey from the first early flow, and were planning to extract it on Saturday, then give both of those colonies a box of empty comb from the stack of extracted boxes later in the day on Saturday. I went out to the bee yard (it's about 200 feet behind the house) on Friday afternoon to do a couple checks, and watched the first swarm come out. They landed in a tree that was nicely accessible, so I was busy hiving them when the second one swarmed. That swarm was up and way, gone. It was our first year working this way, and was another 'lesson learned'. If we find swarm cells a second time, do not delay, just pull the trigger and swarm them artificially. Get fresh new comb and two nucs out of the deal, they aren't going to make any significant amount of honey if they swarm.


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## DeepCreek (Jan 23, 2015)

My commercial beek friend uses a turkey fryer. Dips half the frame, puts it aside, dips another one, etc. Then comes back and dips the other half. Works for him.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

DeepCreek said:


> My commercial beek friend uses a turkey fryer. Dips half the frame, puts it aside, dips another one, etc. Then comes back and dips the other half. Works for him.


Here is a link to a demonstration. Note he uses just a 1" layer of molten wax floating on top of gently boiling water. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuKM24t3r6M


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

crofter, that's pretty slick.


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