# Essential oil treatments, are they bogus?



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

I hear people talk all the time about using essential oils for their bees, in treating them and to benefit bee health, yet I never really hear how these oils work. I mean that _specifically_ I don't hear the physical action and efficacy of a therapeutic treatment using essential oils. How do they work, and has anyone tested these soft treatments in any scientific manner? I'm getting the impression that using essential oils soothes the beekeeper more in making it appear that they are actually doing _something_ for their bees without causing noticeable harm. 

Please, what actual benefits do essential oil soft treatments have, preferably without anecdotal generalizations?

Just to be clear I am a TF "Bond" beekeeper, hence my bias.

Tyson


----------



## REDWOOD (Feb 5, 2014)

Difficult to answer as most medicines are derived from plant, In the UK there are lots of beekeepers who use thymolated syrup for winter feed to prevent nosema, thymol is made from Thyme, personally I think it is important for bees to collect pollen and nectar from diverse foraging, there are over 300 wild plants, trees and flowers and there are some areas of the world where these plants have been eradicated to make way for intense farming leaving slim pickings for our bees, It is important for local communities and councils to get involved in saving our pollinators and provide diverse flower beds and meadows.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Tyson - Since you are treatment free, why do you care about the details of how a particular treatment works (or does not work, whatever the case may be)?


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

shinbone said:


> Tyson - Since you are treatment free, why do you care about the details of how a particular treatment works (or does not work, whatever the case may be)?


Because I'm intellectually curious. Also, "soft" TF is considered to be "sort of" TF, so for me it's a matter of understanding what differences exist within the TF community. I also study treatments and their efficacy, even though I am doubtful of most of it, just as I am of essential oil therapies. To be TF and "Bond" doesn't mean being thick-headed and incurious.

Tyson


----------



## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I've never done a side by side comparison.... But I can tell you that the bees will fly over syrup to get the syrup with oils in it...

I can put a jar of feed on a hive and they will empty it in a few days... With the oils, it's emptied almost over night.

So, if your trying to feed them up, it's worth the effort.

What does "Bond" mean?


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

KevinR said:


> What does "Bond" mean?


Bond Beekeeping, or "To Live and Let Die". I don't treat for varroa or anything else, most of my manipulations deal with space management and fostering disease tolerance and hygienic behavior. Bees that fail at being hygienic and vigorous are allowed to do so and be replaced with colonies that demonstrate survival.

I'm a live bee remover by trade which means I have limitless access to feral bee colonies. Most do rather well without treatments although their commercial potential is doubtful at best.

Tyson


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

"Intellectually curious" and "doubtful of most of it" seems mutually exclusive, to me.

Are you sure you aren't here just to grind away on a personal agenda?


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

shinbone said:


> "Intellectually curious" and "doubtful of most of it" seems mutually exclusive, to me.
> 
> Are you sure you aren't here just to grind on a personal agenda?


So by your definition being intellectually curious means being wholly receptive of accepted wisdom? Critical thinking requires being capable of challenging even one's own bias', even if the outcome changes that bias. I read about treatments all the time and still they haven't seemed any more a silver bullet than TF is, either one is merely a personal choice.

As far as personal agendas, are you saying that never happens in this forum?  No, my issue is that I hear essential oils talked about as if they are a proven benefit to bees yet I just never hear how, and for someone that enjoys knowing _why_, I thought I'd ask people that believe in or have some evidence of their efficacy. 

Tyson


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Tyson Kaiser said:


> Please, what actual benefits do essential oil soft treatments have, preferably without anecdotal generalizations?
> 
> Just to be clear I am a TF "Bond" beekeeper, hence my bias.
> 
> Tyson


Here is a link from UWV about their ongoing studies using essential oils to treat varroa, so you can see their usage is more than merely palliative.

HTH

Rusty


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Here is a link from UWV about their ongoing studies using essential oils to treat varroa, so you can see their usage is more than merely palliative.
> 
> HTH
> 
> Rusty


Thanks Rusty, that is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for.

Tyson


----------



## MikeTheBeekeeper (May 18, 2011)

KevinR said:


> I've never done a side by side comparison.... But I can tell you that the bees will fly over syrup to get the syrup with oils in it...
> 
> I can put a jar of feed on a hive and they will empty it in a few days... With the oils, it's emptied almost over night.


Same with me.


----------



## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

"I'm a live bee remover by trade which means I have limitless access to feral bee colonies. Most do rather well without treatments although their commercial potential is doubtful at best." Tyson Kaiser.

Tyson you say "most", I am curious about those that are not doing well, how so? Also, are you called to remove Dead Outs?


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Here is a link from UWV about their ongoing studies using essential oils to treat varroa, so you can see their usage is more than merely palliative.


From the study you linked, in reference to essential oils used in fed syrups: "places the essential oils into the food chain and prevents oviposition by female mites or retards the development of immature mites in capped larval/pupal cells."
Seems incomplete, I'd be interested in how they came to this conclusion.
"The probable mechanism is interference with enzymes in the complex gestation of the oocyte and embryo-larva of the varroa mite."
Yes, incomplete.
"Research needs to be conducted to verify the presence of the essential oils in bee larvae and ultimately, in the female varroa mites." 
So they have nothing to indicate that essential oils in fed syrups are reaching the varroa mite at all.
"Impaired reproduction is not observed when canola oil, mineral oil, or shortening", "The mites that directly contact these materials rapidly die"
So grease patties could effect phoretic mites by simply coating the bees in a thin layer of grease, inhibiting their life cycle. It is the authors' belief that essential oils are caustic and acting as volatile oils, which they are, and almost any essential oil could fill this role.

I didn't see any evidence that essential oil treatments in this study reduced varroa loads, and in fact the author's state that "We have found that colonies, heavily infested with varroa mites in August, September and October, probably can not be saved." It seems that this use of essential oils mimics the use of oxalic acid in burning phoretic mites and interrupting the non-breeding phase.

I'm still pretty skeptical.

Tyson


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I wonder if there are any recent reports on the essential oils? That study was last updated in 1996.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I would imagine that if the definitive proof that essential oils will safely prevent or eliminate varroa from a hive that Tyson seeks existed, people would be all over it and we wouldn't have a varroa problem.


----------



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

shinbone said:


> "Intellectually curious" and "doubtful of most of it" seems mutually exclusive, to me.
> 
> Are you sure you aren't here just to grind away on a personal agenda?


If applied rigorously, this is a wordy way of saying "scientific." Good scientists are supposed to remain skeptical (even of their own hypotheses) until they are adequately proven.

On the way home from bee class tonight, my wife, a Master Gardener recently indoctrinated into using only science-based methods, gave me a mini-lecture on the subject, and said we should practice science-based beekeeping. We call this "preaching to the choir." I've been looking at the actual science behind powdered sugar treatments for varroa, and there actually are some hard scientific papers on it. I also spot a few holes where I might be able to add a hard scientific paper of my own, or at least replicate the methods used in the papers.

I'm also intellectually curious about this, but inclined to see if any hard papers exist on the subject. I suggest you do what I do, bang on the internet and see if you can find any actual papers or theses (not blogs, speculation, or forum chat) on the subject. There is a good chance you will. Then read it. What I do know is that we have diverse forage available, some of which most certainly has some pharmacologically active plant oils in it (mountain mint, for one) and I'm wondering to what degree bees self-medicate. I know they're terribly fond of garlic chives at one nearby garden where both Master Gardeners and Master Beekeepers work.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Phoebee - good point, although I would say there is an important distinction between "skeptical" and "doubtful." I think Tyson may fail the " . . . _remain skeptical, even of their own hypothesis until they are adquately proven_ . . ." part.

Tyson - Can you point to any scientific studies that demonstrate that the Bond Method safely prevents or eliminates varroa from a hive? 

And, allowing the entire hive to die to eliminate the varroa doesn't count as _safely_ preventing or eliminating varroa from the hive.


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

shinbone said:


> I would imagine that if the definitive proof that essential oils will safely prevent or eliminate varroa from a hive that Tyson seeks existed, people would be all over it and we wouldn't have a varroa problem.


If after three attempts you still have nothing valuable to add, it's safe to assume that "we're done".

Tyson


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

shinbone said:


> Tyson - Can you point to any scientific studies that demonstrate that the Bond Method safely prevents or eliminates varroa from a hive?
> 
> And, allowing the entire hive to die to eliminate the varroa doesn't count as "safely prevents or eliminate varroa."


I never said anything about "safely prevents and eliminate varroa", you're quoting yourself.

The point of Bond beekeeping isn't to eliminate or prevent varroa either, it's to tolerate it. Since you have taken it upon yourself to be the thread troll, at least take the time to understand what has been written so you don't come off like you're making things up.

Tyson


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

"Tolerate varroa" sounds ambiguous, can you please define it?

Also, under your definition, can you point to any papers that prove the Bond Method causes bees to tolerate varroa?


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

shinbone said:


> "Tolerate varroa" sounds ambiguous, can you please define it?
> 
> Also, under your definition, can you point to any papers that prove the Bond Method causes bees to tolerate varroa?


This thread isn't about Bond beekeeping, but essential oil treatments. I'm assuming that you are here to "just to grind away on a personal agenda", so I've PM'ed you some reading on the subject. Enjoy.


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

Phoebee said:


> I suggest you do what I do, bang on the internet and see if you can find any actual papers or theses (not blogs, speculation, or forum chat) on the subject.


Appreciated, my request in this thread was to be presented with some of those studies or papers on the subject. Searching for academic papers can be real chore considering the mountains of wordy information and paywalls to view scientific studies. I was hoping there might be some that had resources to support the efficacy of essential oil treatments.

Thanks,
Tyson


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The papers are out there.Go fish. One from Australia comes to mind, and is the source of the .44 millimole Thymolated syrup that Randy Oliver speaks of. 

Crazy Roland


----------



## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Here is one comparing fumidil to Thymol against nosema, there are more similar researches, plus against chalk brood.

http://hrbka.org.uk/assets/site/documents/misc/thymol-for-nosema-paper.pdf


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

beekuk said:


> Here is one comparing fumidil to Thymol against nosema, there are more similar researches, plus against chalk brood.
> 
> http://hrbka.org.uk/assets/site/documents/misc/thymol-for-nosema-paper.pdf


Am I correct in thinking that thymol isn't an essential oil (Oil of Thyme) and a constituent of it? Thymol is a derivative, purified form of oil of thyme and not an essential oil?

Tyson


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

julysun said:


> "I'm a live bee remover by trade which means I have limitless access to feral bee colonies. Most do rather well without treatments although their commercial potential is doubtful at best." Tyson Kaiser.
> 
> Tyson you say "most", I am curious about those that are not doing well, how so? Also, are you called to remove Dead Outs?


My cut out 2nd yr maintained colony loss rates are currently at 15%. I've only been called to remove one dead out after wax moths had chewed the dead colony to the point of honey leaking from the fixtures. I assume the point of your questioning is to see if the colonies I see are just swarmed dead outs? No, by and large they are better than one year, and many are multi-year colonies.

Tyson


----------



## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Both, synthetic version and pure essential oil.


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I just decided I have been too hard on Acebird. Are people so bored that they will play this game?


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

beekuk said:


> Both, synthetic version and pure essential oil.


"extracted from Thymus vulgaris (common thyme) and various other kinds of plants as a white crystalline substance" 
Not an essential oil, from Wikipedia.

"Thymol is only slightly soluble in water at neutral pH, but it is extremely soluble in alcohols and other organic solvents. It is also soluble in strongly alkaline aqueous solutions due to deprotonation of the phenol."

Tyson


----------



## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Yes as an essential oil of thyme, not crystal, same process of extraction to all the other essential oils. The best one is red thyme, try some.


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

beekuk said:


> Yes as an essential oil of thyme, not crystal, same process of extraction to all the other essential oils. The best one is red thyme, try some.


Reading your link and turning in, wiped. Will follow up tomorrow. 

Cheers,
Tyson


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Tyson Kaiser said:


> . . . , so I've PM'ed you some reading on the subject. Enjoy.


Thanks for the links. Interesting reading. I didn't see any scientific studies, though. Methinks you are applying a double standard.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Essential oils certainly have effects and those effects can be something the beekeeper is hoping to accomplish. But there are also downsides. There was some research done in Australia (I can't seem to find it now) on Thymol and Lemongrass oil in syrup for Nosema that showed they worked on Nosema. Most essential oils have antimicrobial effects as they are the immune system of the plant, concentrated in the oil. Thymol certainly has the ability to kill mites. Lemongrass certainly has the ability to attract bees to feed. Honey Bee Healthy (Lemongrass oil and Peppermint or Spearmint oil) is advertised mostly as a "feed attractant" and, in my experience, it was that. It set off massive robbing. Quite a number of essential oils were tested against Varroa. Most of them worked at least somewhat, probably by confusing the pheromones for the Varroa. But I'm sure they confused the pheromones for the bees as well. Essential oils, being antimicrobial, also disrupt the 8,000 microorganisms that live in the colony, some of which are essential for the survival of the bees.


----------



## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

shinbone said:


> "Intellectually curious" and "doubtful of most of it" seems mutually exclusive, to me.
> 
> Are you sure you aren't here just to grind away on a personal agenda?


edited to remove something already well said.


----------



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Yes, the symbionts and commensuals are the under-appreciated players in this. Be kind to them.

I would expect essential oils, and plant extracts containing alkaloids generally, would rarely have zero effect. Most things humans find either especially tasty or medically useful in plants are there to keep things from eating the plants. The curious thing is we are especially fond of compounds intended to be repellant. One flavor we love, an oil extracted from orange peel, is one of the few compounds effective at killing fire ants.

There was some noise last year when somebody finally realized that one class of "cide" few had suspected could be killing colonies, and that is fungicides. Well, duh! In the marvelous brew of microorganisms that complete the bee, you can find a single yeast capable of converting sugar into something almost the same as honey, no doubt a key player in the process. Since yeasts are essentially single-celled fungi, why would one be surprised if a fungicide can kill the process of making food for bees? 

I suspect bees self-medicate by selecting things in their choices of food that make them feel better. This probably is not always with good outcome, but I'd be more prone to trust their judgment than to simply apply extracted oils without detailed study. In any case, they'll forage for what they will, and I can't stop them. I'll make this prediction ... some essential oils applied judiciously are probably helpful. But to find those and learn to use them, you have to also avoid those that are deadly.

When the bees self-select compounds in native plants, this becomes part of their local adaptation. Picture a scene from an Indiana Jones movie: you drink from the wrong cup and turn to dust. "She chose ... poorly." All part of natural selection. Keep it up. Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium establishing itself. Them with the most suitable taste buds for the local plants wind up most successful locally. Not a pretty process, but in the long run the ones that can't pull it off die back. What remains to be seen is if there are genes that produce strains that _can_ make the right choice, and dominate.

It is worth noting that this won't have a chance to work if you're buying bees from someplace else.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You know we all want to think that WE are logical open minded vessels of The Truth when in reality it is almost impossible to avoid confirmation bias - "I used essential oils and my bees did/did not die - therefore - conclusion." Same thing with penicillin, aspirin, prayer, divining, child rearing, politics, etc. You use it, it seems to work or not, so you believe in it more and more - or not. We all routinely seek out confirmation that what we already believe is true. 

Essential oils may be bogus, but I use them, and not very many of my bees die so I believe that they probably work. Not at all scientific, but I keep using them. And when someone else says that they use EO and it works for them too - I think great - but when someone says that EO didn't work for them - I figure they probably didn't do it right. Chances are you do the same thing with your favored system.

Clearly this must eventually result in open warfare or else it will never be settled.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Clearly this must eventually result in open warfare or else it will never be settled. 

In my observation of history things are never really settled by warfare. It just leaves hard feelings that linger for centuries...


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I think you're right so.. Clearly this will never be settled and must eventually result in open warfare.

How's that?


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Yes, I am slowly starting to think that the whole Treatment/Treatment Free debate is like arguing religion - you are on you're own to figure out what works for you, while somehow steering clear of the charlatans on either side.


----------



## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

Leave it to the Volunteer State guy to come up with the correct answer to this query. 
..Garlic is a great remedy for all that ails you.
Honey is a great remedy for allergies.
...the list goes on and on and on ...if they work for you.... that's all the evidence you need


----------



## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

My feeling on the essential oils relates to my observations of my bees natural forging preferences. When I have mint, thyme or anything related flowering the bees seem to be naturally attracted to it to the exclusion of many other flowering plants nearby. I am guessing that they know that it is beneficial to the hive.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

David LaFerney said:


> Essential oils may be bogus, but I use them, and not very many of my bees die so I believe that they probably work. Not at all scientific, but I keep using them. And when someone else says that they use EO and it works for them too - I think great - but when someone says that EO didn't work for them - I figure they probably didn't do it right. Chances are you do the same thing with your favored system.


I think that there may be some benefit, but the claims are greatly exagerated. Google EO and you get 199,000,000 hits (that's the number that I just got a minte ago). All kinds of websites touting the natural new-age healing benefits of EO's. After all they wouldnt be called *Essential*, if they were not completley essential for life, right? All of this naturally spills into other areas such as beekeeping. 

Also, it could just so happen the bees like EOs beacuse they smell/taste good (or however bees perceive these senses). Bees like Goldenrod too, but EO of goldenrod probably smells pretty rank. 

They question of this thread is whether EO _treaments_ work, not whether the bess take feed better beacuse of adding EO to sugar syrup. I reamain skeptical on the treatment part.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

It seems to me that we know some EOs do kill mites quite well. Apiguard uses Thymol, Thymol comes from the thyme plant, and anyone who has properly used Apiguard (myself included) sees a large mite drop.

Whether Thymol is truly an EO or a derivative of an EO seems like a pointless semantics argument to me. If it is okay to isolate an EO from its parent plant, why is it necessarily wrong to isolate the active ingrediant from the EO? Just the Anti-Treaters making hay, as far as I can tell.

The real question is; when properly applied does Thymol cause more good than harm in a hive? Some say "yes" some say "no." Both sides have good arguments. No one will know for sure until a few well-designed scientific studies are properly completed. I don't recall hearing any reports of such studies underway, so we won't have an answer anytime soon.

JMHO


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

There are several tested and approved treatments based on thymol. Homemade versions CAN be concocted with similar results BUT getting the right proportions by buying so called "essential" oils is far from foolproof. The concentration can vary from one supplier to the next for one thing and stable emulsification is often not achieved. This can result in separation of ingredients and the resulting risk of inconsistent doses. Below is a link from Dave Cushman's site with some useful info.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/naturaloils.html

It is also an issue to some people that they are using an unapproved and labeled product. Some others will find this thought makes a homebrew all the more enticing!
Plastic blenders and shaft seals do not take kindly to some essential oils; they can be more troubling than hydrocarbon oil.


----------



## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Thymol has been used in syrup feed for around 70 years now, certainly preserves syrup, and kills any mold in feeders, and was observed to act against nosema decades ago, Oil of wintergreen has also been in use for a similar period of time, good for killing tracheal mites, and was left in hives over winter for that purpose.


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

shinbone said:


> It seems to me that we know some EOs do kill mites quite well. Apiguard uses Thymol...


This is part and parcel of my doubt about about EO's _in general_, as if all EO's had the same properties then they must all do something beneficial. Thymol isn't an EO any more than Aspirin is willow juice . This is precisely the reason I started this thread because so much "information" about EO's is anecdotal and based on uneducated assumptions. While I don't require scientific papers to demonstrate properties, I do enjoy something more concrete than vague assurances that "my bees like it". If we are talking about EO's we are talking about treatments using one of two delivery methods: essential oils in sugar syrup and essential oils in grease patties. Anything else is produced commercially or in a lab. 

Tyson


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Tyson Kaiser said:


> . While I don't require scientific papers to demonstrate properties, I do enjoy something more concrete than


EOs are home remedies pure and simple. There is no money in doing the science to even determine what their efficacy is So they are probably going to remain home remedies for the foreseeable future. If you don't think they are worth using then don't and I promise I for one won't intentionally pour any on your bees.

It sounds like you want someone to try to prove to you that they have some value - while at the same time you seem to have little interest in being convinced. If you would "enjoy something more concrete" but you aren't convinced by others anecdotes, and you can't be troubled to do your own trial - I guess you are just out of luck. 

No big deal though - essential oils are just a potential tool - not some kind of magic bullet. There isn't really any great need for you or anyone else to be convinced.

BTW - what is the point of your aspirin/willow juice reference? Aspirin is not willow juice but the link that you present indicates that extract of willow actually was used as an effective remedy all over the world before aspirin was developed. So you see, just because a home remedy isn't proven effective by scientific papers doesn't mean that it doesn't work. Sometimes the uneducated masses get it right.


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> There isn't really any great need for you or anyone else to be convinced.


Agreed, nobody need take anything anybody says as evidence that they NEED to do anything for their hives. I really couldn't agree more. The thread is called, in part, "...are they bogus?" and to that end I was curious if there was anything more than anecdotal evidence that they do anything except soothe the beekeeper. I appreciate that you point out that information on EO's is anecdotal and home remedies. 

My opinion is that bees need relatively little that they can't provide on their own. Still, there is the prevailing wisdom that bees will die without our "help", and even a some TF beekeepers swear by utilizing EO's for one reason or another. I was curious what the reasoning was, and I don't think there is harm in asking. If even basic answers can't be provided I'm not sure why you are having such a problem with the question.

Tyson


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't have a problem with the question - I thought I gave a straight answer - If you are interested enough to try EOs then fine. If not, that is also fine. If you are looking for definitive proof one way or the other I only ask that if you find it you share. I hope you do.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> It sounds like you want someone to try to prove to you that they have some value - while at the same time you seem to have little interest in being convinced.


+1



This thread should serve as a warning:

Beware the person who posts a question claiming to be open minded and wanting to learn, when they actually are closed minded and have already made up their mind.


----------



## HIVE+ (Jan 4, 2012)

See below


----------



## Tyson Kaiser (Nov 28, 2012)

shinbone said:


> Beware the person who posts a question claiming to be open minded and wanting to learn, when they actually are closed minded and have already made up their mind.


In my defense, I did state my bias and skepticism in the beginning. If being skeptical precluded anyone from asking questions then nothing would ever be accomplished. You seem to think that being open-minded means blindly accepting whatever is said, and I'm pretty sure you lack the faculty to understand critical thought. Also, I never said I was open-minded, I said I was intellectually curious. You have from the beginning inserted yourself as being hostile and close-minded to TF and Bond beekeeping, which was never the subject of the thread, and managed to spend most of your time attempting to tear down an different topic while never adding to the thread in any meaningful way. 

I also asked for more than anecdotal, feel-goody experiences with essential oils, in hopes that someone would be able to help me come to a _different understanding_ of them. There were many anecdotal, feel-goody responses and one response with a more in-depth study, and several negative-to-EO responses. If the bar to proving something is as low as expressing folksy wisdom, then clearly the truth doesn't really matter.

Tyson


----------



## HIVE+ (Jan 4, 2012)

Forgive my earlier ineptness at posting a web address for a study done with eo of a member of the Aster family. I use a Kindle and can't figure out how to get the whole address to display, but for those interested and intellectually curious, please go to thread (here we go again): www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291637-Help-design-a-varroa-experiment. Post #2 from RADER SIDETRACK gives a connection where the pdf. can be accessed.
Tested link and it works.


----------



## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

I don't know if this proves anything to a closed minded person. But I am starting to believe.

http://honeybhealthy.com/nosema2.html
http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/2010/drench 2010.pdf

This study was non-scientific, and does not take into account dose, or deliver method and only shows a marginal improvement.

http://beeinformed.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/HoneyBHealthy.pdf

And of course Randy Oliver.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/nosema-drench-treatment-trial/

Which shows no positive response. However he was testing for spore count. 

My anecdotal response would be this: Essential Oils don't kill viral and bacterial infections. Essential Oils allow bees to survive longer with infections. 

If you want bees to be able to resist infection they would have to survive long enough to fight the infection. Secondly, with an infection like Nosema Ceranae, the bees need to survive long enough to rear new brood in spring. 

Just my opinion.


----------



## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

I have no doubts that EO can kill mites. However, I also have no doubts that whatever can kill mites can also kill bees and everything else in the hive. Dosage is an important factor.


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

shinbone;1056553
Beware the person who posts a question claiming to be open minded and wanting to learn said:


> That is they way the internet works. On this forum and many others, people ask questions hoping to get responses that reinforce their ideas. Some times it works, some times it doesn't.


----------



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

HIVE+ said:


> Forgive my earlier ineptness at posting a web address for a study done with eo of a member of the Aster family. I use a Kindle and can't figure out how to get the whole address to display, but for those interested and intellectually curious, please go to thread (here we go again): www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291637-Help-design-a-varroa-experiment. Post #2 from RADER SIDETRACK gives a connection where the pdf. can be accessed.
> Tested link and it works.


Ahh, that's what the distillation question was about in your PM. I could not get your link to work. I expect, with the complexity of the medium, that something like a soxlet extraction might help before distillation. I'm not familiar with the particular compound ... have to look up the properties (where is my CRC?). The big catch would be determining the products. I used to work at a lab that could have done it. GS/MS plus IR probably.

I believe a couple of lines up from the compound you are after is a citrus oil which has moderate adverse effects on brood, which would have been my guess.

Some of the attractants look interesting as mite lures, but they'd need a lot of testing too. I was thinking I would try a test to see if powdered sugar on drone brood just before capping could suppress varroa on the pupae, but it looks like cinnamon sugar might be just a pinch better, by making drone brood even tastier. None of these tests are done until you have a few years of full data on the hives, including honey production and population figures.


----------



## gavilandelpuerto (Jul 25, 2014)

http://www.textroad.com/pdf/JBASR/J.%20Basic.%20Appl.%20Sci.%20Res.,%202(8)7674-7680,%202012.pdf


----------

