# Cedar construction



## llgoddj (Apr 11, 2012)

1. Cedar is used as it does not deteriorate as quickly as other woods. And you should not use treated wood.
2. Wood glue is fine as long as there is no glue remaining on the inside, try and make sure to sand away or be careful when applying.
3. Follower boards are a must, and on both ends. I learned the hard way by not placing one on the brood end at the beginning. Makes it very difficult to maneuver the top bars without having a follower board.

best of luck,
larry


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## gmanmp (Jan 6, 2013)

Thanks Larry.

Perhaps i have the terminoligy incorrect with "follower boards". I intend on using a spacer board??? at each end to prevent the combs from being too close to the front/back. I am talking about a top bar with a board attached basically to divide the hive. Should i use one/two. here is a pic:


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## Maryland Beekeeper (Nov 1, 2012)

Thankx for your service ? Jury is out on both questions. I have cedar/non versions of all hives and the wood type and glue fumes are going to be the least of your problems. My followers have evolved into rigid insulation with window cut out and scrap pexi hot glued in. Your two main concerns are SHB and varroa. A SHB trap, sealed to hive, is mandatory in my estimation, @ least until you have a mature colony. Now what will you do about the varroa..... ? 
Wishing you the very best of luck.
Cheers,
Drew


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## llgoddj (Apr 11, 2012)

Your terminology is correct. You should have one follower board on each end of the hive. The first one, at the beginning of your combs where the brood will be, right up against the end of the TBH, so when you remove the follower board you will have a space enabling you to maneuver the top bars out and inspect. the other follower board will be moved as your hive grows, but optimally you should not have a large empty cavity, and therefore you are confining the hive with the follower board. I hope I have made myself clear.

larry


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

gmanmp said:


> View attachment 3932
> Thanks Larry.
> 
> Perhaps i have the terminoligy incorrect with "follower boards". I intend on using a spacer board??? at each end to prevent the combs from being too close to the front/back. I am talking about a top bar with a board attached basically to divide the hive. Should i use one/two. here is a pic:


I recommend using them. I have had problems with SHB hiding from the bees behind the solid follower boards so I am experimenting with one cut short on three sides by 3/8". I just started last year though so I don't know yet if it still does the job. They were fine with it to access their feeder. Sometimes you want to fully close it off though, so you still need one that fits to the sides. If the full size one doesn't fit well to the sides some bees can get around it and be trapped on the other side. (Not sure if they are after the beetles or what.)

The recommendation I got was to start by using them to make a cavity for 8 bars when hiving the bees.


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## eriklane (Dec 4, 2012)

Was reading on warrestore.com about cedar. Do that. Cedar is THE material to use.

Some observations from a first year beekeeper, and tbh maker. Ours in MI was a hit, until mid-Dec, when they flew out. No idea what happened. Plenty of honey, good hive going, did not find the queen. Mystery. MrBeeMan also had this happen. He'd checked his Dec 22 and fine, this week, gone. We're stumped. DO the cedar. Don't worry about glue. I did my TBH out of quickly cut lumber, and it was great. Anything I'd change? Not really, except, in MI, thicker walls, and put the hive in shade where it can get winter sun. Read that carefully. That means an edge of the woods near a south opening, out of the wind...we had such a great year watching and learning, but sadness when we lost them, and no idea why. Made a Lang out of 2x8 and 12 lumber. Heavy sucker. Will be making a Warre also soon, as I think resembling a tree is key. Vertical. Bees like that. Do they have issues 'finding' honey horizontally? No idea-it didn't matter because ours froze because there were only 30 left. 20 of them were face down in the comb. 10 stuck to the comb, and honey inches away. THey can't stay warm. But the problem was that they left. We did not use an excluder. No issue. But this one concern-as winter comes, with a big gap between the one side, (my entrance on one side low) and the honey stores, mostly beyond bar 8, bees have to go AROUND, or,below, to get to the honey. And that means traversing a big empty zone of cold. I like Warre and Lang-they just go up as a whole. Warre is smaller, and thus, I believe the thought is that the hive fills the void. Langs are quite wide...

Don't worry about a little glue and all these tiny details. Bees live in trees remember? Rough, rough rough. We think too much. Just make a dry, clean, and ventilated (warre) hive and it seems it'll be just fine...


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Cedar will be fine and use the glue... bees could care less.

Start with 8 - 10 bars then your follower board to start... too big of a space and they will leave, trust me.
Move the board back and add bars (3-4) when they start to build on the last bar.

A good year you should be able to pull 1-2 bars of honey that fall.

The bees only used about 3/4 of the hive.
I constructed two boards for the hive, one solid and one to accept a standard entrance feeder. I fed until they built up then installed the solid board.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Aromatic Cedar (cedar chests)is a quite different product than Western Red Cedar(siding, building material). I would be hesitant to use it.


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## SteveBee (Jul 15, 2010)

I'd like to follow up on llgoddj's comment on using two follower boards. We have a cedar TBH and it has worked fine for three years. We originally started all of our TBHs with a single follower board on the back. This works fine, but you have to start your inspection from the back (the honey end) every time. With a follower at each end, you can start your inspection from either end and you can get to the broodnest without having to move all the honey bars. I believe that's what he's saying, and I fully agree.


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## llgoddj (Apr 11, 2012)

SteveBee said:


> I'd like to follow up on llgoddj's comment on using two follower boards. We have a cedar TBH and it has worked fine for three years. We originally started all of our TBHs with a single follower board on the back. This works fine, but you have to start your inspection from the back (the honey end) every time. With a follower at each end, you can start your inspection from either end and you can get to the broodnest without having to move all the honey bars. I believe that's what he's saying, and I fully agree.


Exactly, and thanks for explaining a little more clearly my thoughts and reasoning behind the need and ease of working with two follower boards. Larry


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## eriklane (Dec 4, 2012)

I read right by the 'aromatic' part...I was also thinking of the type you find at Lowes, etc...building grade.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Someone also mentioned using a short follower board on the front (I can't remember who though). They should work fine as well, but you will need to make it thick enough to get a knife in to cut comb from the walls on the first comb. I'm going to try out some small followers that were scraps for use in some swarm traps this spring. Your follower boards don't need to be a seal to the back of the hive (like Colleen mentioned). I've seen some folks put a hole in their followers and put a boardman style feeder in the back. Wyatt uses front entrances. I can't remember if he uses a cleat to space the first comb back or what, and I've too lazy to grab the book right now to see!

I use glue and nails, but if you use screws you wouldn't need glue. On the other hand it will be more expensive to build a hive with screws versus nails. I was taught to always use mechanical and chemical fasteners, and I don't trust a nail by itself. Wyatt doesn't use glue, but he is part time commercial. When you are running a couple hundred hives you need to find every way you can to save money. Not using glue makes it easier to repair as the ends will fail first. If I have a hive falling apart after 10 years I probably will just replace it since this is a hobby for me and I can always justify spending money and time on my hobbies!

Wyatt's method works well for him. He uses wax starter strips in his bars and inspects from the front. Since he is using his hives commercially for pollination, inspecting from the front of the hive makes the most sense. Between surplus comb and the combination of the starter strips he probably rarely has comb issues. Inspecting from the front lets him get into the brood nest and check for problems and get out. He has been doing this for a long time so my guess is that he is very efficient at inspections. He probably doesn't have to worry about stores (he is pollinating after all) so this gets him in and out quickly and on to the next field. 

I like cedar, but I use the pine. Hopefully in a few years my hive are not full of holes when the knots all fall out! The bees don't care. They will build a hive in a outhouse made from plywood, I doubt the cedar smell would bother them much.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

llgoddj said:


> Exactly, and thanks for explaining a little more clearly my thoughts and reasoning behind the need and ease of working with two follower boards. Larry


With an end entrance.

If you use a follower at the entrance end of the hive it's important to leave a proper bee space between the end wall and follower board. A removable cleat or spacer is needed. A bee space around the edge of the follower and side walls is also important in that it allows you to insert the follower back into the hive with out crushing bees against the side walls without the bee space around the follower's edge. Makes the closing up process very simple!


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## gmanmp (Jan 6, 2013)

Thanks for all the suggestions. I will add two followers. I am not adding a screen to the bottom but will use hinges on the base board to remove/inspect trash. Here is a pic. The entrance is adjustable and i intend to sand the landing edge for rain run-off.


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## SteveBee (Jul 15, 2010)

Also good points, Delta Bay.


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## eriklane (Dec 4, 2012)

Hate to say it but are we even sure bees will take aromatic cedar?


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## pkalisz (Oct 15, 2012)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?218628-Aromatic-Cedar-Hive-Body


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## eriklane (Dec 4, 2012)

I suspect this WILL be the best looking beehive on the planet.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1. Will the cedar smell deter or otherwise affect the health of the colony?

Not in my experience.

>2. I used wood glue (tightbond III) to glue up my panels for the sides/ends. Any issue with this? 

It will work fine.

>Also i have read varying opinions on using a follower in the hive to reduce/expand the hive. Is it recommended to use this and if so where do i place it for the initial start up, ie; how much space to begin with a 3# package. (the TB hive will be approx 42" long) 

You need space that the cluster of bees will fill about 50% of the space they have. You will need to double that in a few weeks (possibly as short as two if the weather cooperates).


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## gmanmp (Jan 6, 2013)

Thanks again for all the suggestions/recommendations. I do enjoy woodworking and the beehive may look nice; however, i am more concerned with it's function. 

During construction, i believe i have a design flaw. I built the front/back taller on both ends and the bars sit snug between them. I have cut several cleats of various sizes for each end to allow a bee space as the bars expand. I am concerned about the front/back with expansion of the top bars. The bars are made of pine (Cedar expands much more) and wood expands across the grain, ie; the width of the bars. I think i will need to trim the back of the hive down to be level with the bottom of the top bars. Or should i just loosley place the bars in (smaller than a beespace between each) Here is an update photo. Any comments or constructive criticism welcome. I think i hijacked my own thread...


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Yes, you will get expansion, even with the pine. If you have follower boards and don't have bars clean to the very end you won't have a problem, just leave one out. I made what I call expansion bars for some top bar swarm traps that I'm putting out this spring. Basically just some very thin followers that will go in at the back and are more wedged shaped. I'm needing to do this as once the traps are out they will be unattended and I won't be able to tweek them easily. I'm hoping that if I get some expansion these will compress before pushing the ends of the hive apart. 

You could still cut the ends of the hive flush at this point, but you will want something at the end (like a cleat) that will give you bee space at the front of the hive. You could just use a spacer that hangs down a bit to keep them from building on it, kind of like a short, thin follower board. 

You could also install a slotted cleat at the rear of the hive that will allow for expansion, but that will be overkill. These are supposed to be simple hives after all!


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## pkalisz (Oct 15, 2012)

"The physical properties of [eastern] redcedar wood are excellent for many uses. The wood is moderately low in strength and stiffness but high in shock resistance. It shrinks very little during drying and is not greatly affected by changes in atmospheric moisture."

Eastern Redcedar - Forest Products Laboratory
www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/usda/amwood/260eredc.pdf


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

The hive that I purchased came with a bunch of 1/8 x 3/8 x 17 1/2 spacers. You put them in alone, or double, or flat depending on how much space you need to take up. I would leave the ends tall, have enough bars to fit nicely now, and add the spacers when/where you need them. They are handy for when the comb has been drawn to one side and you want to get them back on track, or if they make a thicker honey comb and you need more space on both sides of it, etc.

Your hive is looking great! It reminds me I need to get the router out and put my observation window in my new hive before spring!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When I have scrap cedar I use it. I never buy cedar to build hives. It's not worth the difference in the cost and it splits more easily.


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