# Cutout in stone house



## Edcrosbys (Oct 26, 2010)

There is a 1903 2-story stone house that I've been asked to do a cutout on. The bees are entering though a previous awning hole between two floors and two walls. I tried the stethoscope method of finding them, but I assume the plaster on wood lathe is too thick to hear them. 

A few questions about the cutout:
Am I right about plaster on wood lathe being too thick to hear bees through a stethoscope?
Do stone block houses of this era have balloon framing inside?
Will a vibrating tool like Dremel Multi-Max cut plaster well? (my only plaster demo has been with a sawzall)
I was planning on using a blade like this: 
http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Accessories/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=MM452

I've told them that:
I have no liability insurance, so they will assume all liability of the removal. 
This is the **FIRST** cutout I've done. I've read about it extensively and watched videos, however, this is my first.
I might have to drill 20 holes to find the bees.
I am not repairing anything. I will try my best to limit the damage. 
There is one other person in the area that has done a cutout. I passed his info along in case they would prefer someone experienced.
I recommended they leave the bees alone.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

If the hole is in between 2 floors are you sure the bees are in the wall and not between the floor joists?
I did a cut out on an old home with plaster and lathe inside and stucco out. I used a metal blade on a circular saw on the outside to get to the bees.
They should not be that far away from where they are going in at, I would start at that point on the inside cut a test hole at about the same spot if you can and try to get in between the studs and then you may need to go to the floor joists.
Make sure you charge for the amount of work you think you will need to do plaster and lathe is not the easiest to work with and don't fall for "well you get to keep the bees" Bees plus payment for a cut out is the only way to go or let *them* keep the bees.
Good luck


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

1) Yes, that blade says it's made for plaster+lath work, *however* it looks a little small, and I've seen some plaster+lath walls that were over an inch thick, so you might want to have a circ. saw with a masonry blade installed & handy, just in case. I've ruined plenty of sawzall blades trying to cut plaster & lath...there were a couple occasions where I gave up & just used a masonry drill bit, then a hammer and chisel to "connect the dots" rather than changing so many saw blades...works pretty well.
2) Were I to take on that job, I would make sure the homeowner was aware that my bills for that job could VERY easily end up over $300. You're having to go in through materials that are notoriously hard to cut, with minimal information, and no guarantee that you won't be breathing lead paint dust the whole time. Yes, a healthy hive of bees is valuable (call 'em a nuc & they'd be worth about $120-$200, depending on who you ask), BUT you're doing a LOT of work to get them, it's dangerous work without the right equipment, and it requires a VERY "specialized" set of skills, both in construction AND in bee-handling...don't sell yourself short or you'll end up with a bad taste in your mouth. Also, my hives from my first 3 cut-outs failed, and the hive from my 3rd cut-out ended up queenless and developed laying workers on me...NOW I can have a fairly high percentage of success when "converting" hives from cut-outs into useful hives in my apiary, but don't expect much luck with your early attempts. ... and find out what exterminators are charging in your area; around here any exterminator you asked to do that cut-out for less than $600-$900 would probably laugh so hard they'd hang up the phone on you!

If you want more information, I'll be glad to help where I can, but in the interest of being something _close_ to concise, I'm gonna end this post here & just provide more over-worded advice if it's asked for


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

IMHO, there is way too much potential for damage...especially if you don't know exactly where the bees are.

Without liability insurance, a contractors license, or a pesticide applicators license there is no "owner takes responsibility for liability"...they may do so as long at it is convenient...but what if they get a $10k quote to put things back the way they were before you started cutting (antique horsehair?) plaster, lath, and god forbid, structural elements, electrical conduit, plumbing, etc?

I'd try to find the colony and drive them out with a little bee go....have a small nuc (with brood, and perhaps a queen...caged or not) right outside the entrance when you do so.

It is also important in a situation like this to get all the honey out of the walls (without bees to keep things cool, the comb can melt and collapse). Wait a day or 2 (for the open brood to die and the bee go to disapate), and then bring in another colony to rob them out. Ideally you want to get the comb out and fill the void, but that might be difficult here....just settle with sealing all the holes you can find.

deknow


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

BeeGo won't work....the bees won't leave their brood unguarded unless you spray enough garbage in their to kill them...and then you're likely to be committing a serious offense by spraying something in there to kill them without a pesticide applicators license 

As far as the liability part goes, I don't go in without a signed "Release of Liability" form, actually 2 as I sign one releasing the homeowner from liability if I do something dum & get myself injured, that tends to set them "more at ease" for signing the more important (to me) form that guarantees my safety from liability .

Also, I don't know the laws in VA, but here in TX I had to apply with the state apiarist for both a "Bee Removal License" and an "Intrastate Transport Permit" before I could "be legal" for doing cut-outs; total cost was only $35 this year, and will be $70 next year (due to having more hives), but it's still a necessary step, esp. since fines for NOT having the paperwork could be in the thousands.


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## abejorro (May 9, 2011)

...and hope the plaster does not contain asbestos...


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

abejorro said:


> ...and hope the plaster does not contain asbestos...


Oops, just re-read my earlier post...looks like I f-got to mention the VERY high likelihood that you'll be breathing in dust from LEAD PAINT the whole time your'e working......


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

Ed:

How long has the hive been there? 1st year vs. 2nd year can have significant differences. I haven't found the stethescopes to work that great. You should be able to hear them through plaster and lathe though with just your ear. Also, a better method at times is temperature. Feeling the walls, floor, ceiling. The bees keep the brood nest at 92 degrees. I use an infrared thermometer, and it really helps. I knock on the wall as I'm listening. You need to disturb them to make them buzz. During a good day, they're not going to be that buzzy unless disturbed. If the entrance outside is near the joint of the 1st and 2nd floor, you really need to consider they are in the ceiling of the 1st floor. 80% of my cutouts are in the ceiling of the 1st floor. The bees come in at a crack in the rim joist.



As far as plaster, I would suggest not using power tools. It creates a lot of dust, which makes the cutout difficult. I prefer the chisel method. Take a standard screwdriver, a big one, preferrably one with metal on the handle, and tap / cut your location with a hammer. Then, come back with just a wood cutting bit on a jig saw. You'll find that if you use a sawzall with wood lathe, you'll crack a lot of the wall and loosen the rest of the lathe from the rest of the wall.

If you don't have a bee vac, you're going to have a rough time of it. A cheat around that is to take a large shop vac, and tape over part of the exhaust, and open the drain port on the vac. Don't use a bag, or the deflector that's inside (there is a deflector right inside that directs the dirt down - it will kill them if they hit it.. If there is not a lage drain port, you should use a hole saw and cut a hole opposite the hose side, and that will help cut down on the amount of sucking force through the hose and keep you from killing the bees. Just keep some duct tape handy as they'll pour out of that as soon as the vacuum is off. I have a large foam sleeve on my vacuum that prevents the bees from being harmed. I have vaccuumed bees in a pinch this way, and had very few losses. Unfortunately, I couldn't clean up the dust later as my vac was "occupied".

You'll also need some place to put the honeycomb. I built my own clamshell frames, but tip I heard from another guy was to take 1x2 fencing the size of your frame. Cut every other wire, and bend 90 degrees, then fasten that to the frame. Then, when you get the wax, lay the frame down with the points up. Lay the wax into the points and it will hold it long enough for the bees to fasten the comb to your empty frames.

The bees will be within 3 feet of their entrance. Don't assume anything, and it's best not to start just cutting holes. I've done a lot of cutouts and trapouts, and I've stopped drilling exploratory holes. You want to know exactly where that hive is. Cover the floor with 2 layers of plastic, and turn out the lights in the room and open the windows at the top if you can. The bees hit the windows and crawl up.

I agree with robherc. The cutout bees can be a pain. I did one once that was perfect. Took forever to do it, got all the comb, and they absconded and left the larva the next day. Now, I get the frames in, add the bees from the beevac in the evening with some sprayed sugar water, and that evening I block them in with screen, and give them an entrance feeder. I give them an inch so they can go out on cleansing flights and that's it. Haven't had one leave yet. Check in a week for new eggs or emergency cells.

I did my very first cutout for free a few years ago. Have always charged since then. If I'm too busy, or I don't want the job, I'll ask for 50% more than normal, and if they agree, I will do it anyway. I also keep my competitors names and numbers available if the customer balks at the price. They charge more, and don't do the repairs. The other guys that do this are in one of my beekeeper clubs. I do it more as a hobby and to get experience. Eventually, I'll make my rates competitive, but even now, it's usually $400 min for a cutout, but I leave it in paintable condition.

Finally, scrape all the wax, paint it with kilz, and screen the entrance in from the inside and outside. I have a big roll of insulation that I bring to jobs and I stuff the whole cavity that had the hive. Even if the bees can get back in, they won't have room to build, and that's usually enough of a deterrent.


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

Oops, one more thing. Led paint isn't the biggest problem. If the house is the right age, some plaster used horse hair as a bonding agent - much like fiberglass is added to concrete in some applications. However, the tanneries used arsenic to strip the horse hair off the hides.

Breathing THAT stuff will really make you sick. I restored some chairs once that were stuffed in horsehair. Was sick for 3 or 4 weeks, and found out....


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

robherc said:


> BeeGo won't work....the bees won't leave their brood unguarded unless you spray enough garbage in their to kill them...and then you're likely to be committing a serious offense by spraying something in there to kill them without a pesticide applicators license


...I can't detail all of the variables involved in how well bee go will work (there are many), but certainly, "BeeGo won't work" isn't true....as I've used it and had good luck when working with a removal professional in FL. 

One of the two cases where we used it it took one squirt (from a small syringe)...colony was behind/under a tile shower, and there was a floor joist in the way from the outside. The bees started to cluster in a tree, so we put out a weak observation hive near the entrance....the displaced colony simply ended up clustering between the ob hive and the outside wall, and was easy to retrieve.

The other case was under a trailer....lots of volume, and lots of ventilation...much more being necessary....I expect in a well sealed wall it would work quite well.

For the record, this professional _is_ a licensed pesticide applicator...and he became one after the pesticide board charged him for using chemicals in bee removal without a license....he was charged for spraying plain water.

But I gave the advice I did based on the fact that I'd rather sit in front of a judge regarding using a common beekeeping chemical to remove live bees from a historic home without damaging it (something that an exterminator would not do), then for damage I did to a home with a skillsaw. 

In such a case, a signed release form won't get you anywhere....you are acting as an unlicensed, uninsured contractor and through ignorance damaged a home. If someone is injured (falls through a hole you leave for the contractor to fix, is electrocuted because you cut through a ground wire, has respitory problems following the dust you create...and then find out it is lead paint and asbestos insulation), forget about it.


deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...removals almost always go better if no bee vac is used. they are a nice shortcut for some things, but the results are always worse than simply tying comb into frames, caging the queen, and placing a box near the entrance....removing all the comb, and coming back later to fill the void.

deknow


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

deknow said:


> IMHO, there is way too much potential for damage...especially if you don't know exactly where the bees are.
> 
> Without liability insurance, a contractors license, or a pesticide applicators license there is no "owner takes responsibility for liability"...they may do so as long at it is convenient...but what if they get a $10k quote to put things back the way they were before you started cutting (antique horsehair?) plaster, lath, and god forbid, structural elements, electrical conduit, plumbing, etc?
> 
> ...


FYI, if the job is under $1,000 there is no contractor license required in Virginia. Insurance is another story. However, you are somewhat covered if you do not charge a penny. In that case, you're just a friend helping a guy out. If you charge anything though, you then fall under some liabilities. Not that I would rest on that in court... A trapout may be a better option for you in this case. I would advise a trapout if this is a 1st year swarm. If it's a 2nd year hive, you probably need to do the cutout. I just did one last weekened and filled a 5 gallon bucket with 99% honey. I still have to do a trapout to get the rest of the bees out. Another beekeeper was just going to spray and told the customer "robber bees will take care of the rest". yeah, right.


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

deknow said:


> ...removals almost always go better if no bee vac is used. they are a nice shortcut for some things, but the results are always worse than simply tying comb into frames, caging the queen, and placing a box near the entrance....removing all the comb, and coming back later to fill the void.
> 
> deknow


Deknow,

I'd love to have it that simple, but I've never been lucky enough to be able to cage the queen. Maybe in a nice wall cutout where you can see both sides of a comb, but most of mine are packed into a ceiling, and by the time I've cut the comb, even if I try to cut below the honey line, I'm covered in honey and have drowned bees everywhere. It may be different by state, but I would love to have a job that allowed it clean cut like that. I've had 1 or 2, but most were way too packed in a small space. I also have very few dead bees in my beevac. Maybe 10 total? It does distrub them, but sometimes I can't even get my hands on the comb without crushing tons of bees. 

Do you use bee go to push most of the bees outside, then do your cutout? That seems like it would work, except for the awful smell.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Rob, if you are in Richmond, then you must know John Adams. Ask him about how many cutouts Keith does in FL a year, and how many queens he isn't able to find and cage....you wouldn't believe me if I told you 
deknow


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

You're getting paid to do thid, right?!


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

FIRST cutout and in this potentially horrible situation....If ever there was a job to pass on, this one is it.Either do a trap out or leave it alone.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

Well Ed are you ready to give up on cut outs altogether yet.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

deknow said:


> ...removals almost always go better if no bee vac is used. they are a nice shortcut for some things, but the results are always worse than simply tying comb into frames, caging the queen, and placing a box near the entrance....


I disagree with this statement. I'd say just the opposite is true. Getting the bees out of the way so you can carefully cut the comb out is far easier. Cage the queen? Maybe if the cutout is in an extremely open area, but some I've done would be a stroke of luck to find the queen. Perhaps you haven't used the robbo vac. People have had great success using them with virtually no dead bees.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Mixed success with a vac. Can end up with a lot of dead bees if much honey is dripping. I try to avoid using it if at all possible.

A less invasive way to find the colony is to drill small holes and insert a small wire (or coat hanger) and keep probing until you hit honey.

I agree with others I would be suspicious that they are in the floor.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Barry said:


> Perhaps you haven't used the robbo vac. People have had great success using them with virtually no dead bees.


I agree 100% with Barry here, with my vac or, from what I've heard, with the bushkill vac, the number of dead bees in the vac will be completely negligible. Also, I did several cut-outs BEFORE I got my vac built, so I can say with absolute certainty that USING the vac has increased the number of LIVE bees removed, decreased the work involved, and 4-to-1 increased the hive survival rate from my cut-outs! To my mind, there simply is no other method that''s 1/2 as effective as using a good bee vac for cut-outs...if you aren't using one you're wasting your effort IMHO (that said, I live in hardcore AHB country...things may be a little different elsewhere).


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