# So I made a deposit on 2 nucs back in November



## Ski (Jan 18, 2007)

The weather has been cool and rainy so I could understand the date being pushed.
I don't think he is using your nucs to make a honey crop, but he is mostly correct that you would normally not get much if any honey from a colony started from a nuc unless you over wintered the nuc.

I would be patient for another week or two.


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## cwood6_10 (Apr 17, 2012)

I would be patient. If the weather has been anything like Texas they are a month behind. Flow have been dead so far and I am feeding my nucs now when a normal year they all would be in singles. I wouldn't expect a honey crop.


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## BackYardPhenomena (Jul 11, 2012)

I made a bunch of nucs for sale back in March. Only a handful are ready for customers. It's not always a reliable business.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Only a remarkable nuc put on all drawn frames has a chance of getting a moderate honey crop in my neck of the woods. Give it a couple more weeks but expecting honey the first year may be stretching it.


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## MikeinCarolina (Mar 9, 2014)

My only experiences with nucs is 2 nucs two seperate times. I had them in hand by mid april both times- both times they made a nice crop of honey. I dont know about pounds but it was around 7 gallons each time. And yes I did put them on drawn comb. I am suprised that it is unusual to make a honey crop with a nuc. These were normal 5 frame nucs.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

How did you find this supplier? 
The ones I produced were delayed about two weeks. But...almost all have been delivered now. A couple of more pickups this weekend....the nucs were ready and then the buyers weren't.
What happened to the nucs you had in the past?


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

In my limited experience, the date is a "soft" date. It depends on the weather. The weather has to be warm enough for them to survive and to keep the queen and brood warm. My first year, I got my nuc later than I thought too - but by then it was warm enough for them to thrive. 

I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment expecting to get honey the first year. They need to build up stores for their winter survival. I ended up reinstalling with a package, as I lost my first set of bees their first winter. I gave the new bees their first winter, and they came out of it fine, and I got my first honey crop last year.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

If you'd like to take a long drive to California we have some smoking ones that are busting the boxes...... Pictures at 10........


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I ordered a nuc (paid in advance) this year from a provider I have used many times in the past. This guy is a very good bee keeper and very honest. He has had to slip his delivery date by at least 6 weeks due to weather conditions in the area where he raises his nucs. I still don't have a firm delivery date, but I am okay with that because I trust the guy to do right.

Also, this is a very busy time of year for beekeepers, so all the people calling your supplier once a week is only making things worse by giving him more administrative work to do, taking time away from being in the apiary.

If your nuc provider has a good reputation, I would leave him alone. He will get the nucs to his customers when they are ready.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Has anyone ever had a nuc supplier that was early with the delivery but late cashing the check?


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Has anyone ever had a nuc supplier that was early with the delivery but late cashing the check?


umm, yah. I had one this year. Part of our plan for expansion, last fall I ordered some nucs from a nearby supplier, and the expected delivery date was late May. Spring came early, bees built up early. On April 24th at 9 in the evening my phone rang, nucs are ready, and bursting, come get in the morning. I picked them up the next morning. The check has not been cashed.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

grozzie2 said:


> umm, yah. I had one this year. Part of our plan for expansion, last fall I ordered some nucs from a nearby supplier, and the expected delivery date was late May. Spring came early, bees built up early. On April 24th at 9 in the evening my phone rang, nucs are ready, and bursting, come get in the morning. I picked them up the next morning. The check has not been cashed.


I'm glad to hear that Grozzie and I shouldn't have implied that it dosent happen. Sounds like you've found a reputable supplier though if it's the same one who is running 6 weeks late I would think you are entitled to at least some discount in price. 
Mostly I get upset when I sense somebody that dosent know much about bees is getting jerked around by someone that knows better. Yes, there can be weather related delays but they should be the exception and not the norm. Good suppliers don't routinely over promise. A good early nuc should definitely be one you would expect to raise you a honey crop THIS year and not next. If you aren't getting that then it should be reflected in the price.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> A good early nuc should definitely be one you would expect to raise you a honey crop THIS year and not next.


I don't know if that's universally true Jim. Maybe in some locations and with some management philosophies. For many local folks...getting the nest built out and leaving 50 to 75lbs of honey on for winter here, where we don't see a measurable fall flow...a surplus above that is expecting a bit much. I advise my nuc customers not to expect a surplus their first year. It happens...but not always.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

It is virtually unheard of here to get honey from a first year hive - even one given drawn comb.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Well ALL the honey I raise each year are from first year nucs. The issue is understanding when your main flow begins and what trajectory your nuc needs to be on to reach optimum size to take advantage of it. My experience is a 3 comb nuc made up with a cell 10 weeks ahead of the main flow "arrives" in plenty of time. Just checked some today that were made up 6 weeks ago and they are averaging about 5 combs of brood. I expect them to be "wall banging" in another 3 weeks. Yes, this can't often be done up north but aren't most nucs sold also being raised in the south? 
I will concede there is no standard definition of a nuc, everything has a market value based on size, location and what you hope to get out of it. For example a summer nuc may not raise you a honey crop but it may well be perfect for a good pollination check the following spring. But aren't most folks on here buying nucs instead of packages because of the inherent advantages of having a going and growing unit at about the same time they would expect to receive a package?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

beemandan said:


> I don't know if that's universally true Jim. Maybe in some locations and with some management philosophies. For many local folks...getting the nest built out and leaving 50 to 75lbs of honey on for winter here, where we don't see a measurable fall flow...a surplus above that is expecting a bit much. I advise my nuc customers not to expect a surplus their first year. It happens...but not always.


Ahhh. You are raising nucs for southern customers? If that's the case I agree. We think of the southern flows as buildup flows because the bees have been split down when, in fact, they might raise a pretty good surplus if left large enough.
When in conversations with someone in Maine or Georgia, I need to remember that we all have unique perspectives.


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## brettj777 (Feb 27, 2013)

i ordered a Nuc here in WI. The delivery is going to be May 8th. They overwinter down south too. Bees are not an exact science. But you would hope he would do a better job of communicating to his customers.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> My experience is a 3 comb nuc made up with a cell 10 weeks ahead of the main flow "arrives" in plenty of time.


3 frames of brood?

The problem (one of) with that in my area is that the start date would be about Feb 20 and we don't have drones until April more or less.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

David LaFerney said:


> 3 frames of brood?
> 
> The problem (one of) with that in my area is that the start date would be about Feb 20 and we don't have drones until April more or less.


Well, again, we're coming at this from different perspectives. We are quite a ways south of you and we are using 10 frame deeps so it takes some bee power to get them off to a good start. I would guess that most nucs nowadays are probably the product of an almond buildup so that's probably going to establish a certain standard and probably a floor price as well. If I were raising nucs as a business I would use 2 combs in a smaller nuc box and the bees would probably "arrive" (after a timely transfer) at about the same date. 
Brett (in the previous post) for example is in pretty good shape if he gets a good4 to 5 comb nuc "on the grow" by May 8th with the prospect of a main flow in that country maybe 6 weeks later. 
David, none of this means there is anything wrong with what you are raising, if you have happy customers everybody is a winner. But if you are trying to market nucs to northern customers expecting to make a honey crop your somewhat later season probably makes it more of a challenge.


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## erikebrown (Oct 27, 2014)

I ordered two nucs from a local guy this year. No deposit, paid on delivery. Promised for the first weekend in May and I picked them up on April 19. So far the bees are doing well, last weekend even found the queen in one of them. Go bees!

Erik


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> none of this means there is anything wrong with what you are raising


Oh, I know. I started mine with a queen and 3-4 (medium) frames of brood on April 3 and a few of them are 7-8 frames now - the rest are about a week behind. And I just spotted the first black locust in bloom today. I hate to let them go to tell the truth. But go they shall.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Well ALL the honey I raise each year are from first year nucs. The issue is understanding when your main flow begins and what trajectory your nuc needs to be on to reach optimum size to take advantage of it. My experience is a 3 comb nuc made up with a cell 10 weeks ahead of the main flow "arrives" in plenty of time.


I think this statement may need to be qualified slightly, I'm going to bet pretty long odds, those 3 framers you start are 3 frames of brood, capped cell, with a bunch more frames of drawn comb. That's a whole different story from starting them in a box with the 3 frame nuc start, and a bunch of empty frames that need to be drawn out.

And I think that's the real difference between those of us that have been doing this for a few years, and those starting out. I put a few 4 frame nucs into boxes 5 days ago along with 6 more drawn combs, and today they are on 6 frames, with brood on 4, a 5th was laid full of eggs yesterday, and yet another is being nicely filled with pollen. In another 4 weeks, they will be into a second box. But had I started them with foundation beside the 4 original frames, they would still be working on drawing comb onto the first frame with foundation. This nuc will grow much faster than a nuc picked up by a newbie who doesn't have drawn comb to give them.


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## Ski (Jan 18, 2007)

MikeinCarolina,
You asked what we would do and opinions were given. 

It won't get your nucs here any faster arguing with people here that gave you what you asked for.


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## BackYardPhenomena (Jul 11, 2012)

Come now folks. We love beekeeping not beating each other up.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Andrew Dewey said:


> It is virtually unheard of here to get honey from a first year hive - even one given drawn comb.


I am not making it up but my nucs arrived the very end of May. They built up and I got honey off many of them. I guess it was beginners luck.


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## MikeinCarolina (Mar 9, 2014)

Ski said:


> MikeinCarolina,
> You asked what we would do and opinions were given.
> 
> It won't get your nucs here any faster arguing with people here that gave you what you asked for.


I didnt argue with anyone, just pointed out I have had nucs produce surplus in years past. And asked one particular member who scolded me as a newbe who wasnt being realistic, how long he had been involved with keeping honeybees.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ski said:


> MikeinCarolina,
> You asked what we would do and opinions were given.


Was I beating up on him? So sorry. My concern is newbies that buy a nuc and want instant gratification. Is it possible, yeah if you are a 30 year veteran and know what you are doing but a newbie is very very unlikely able to harvest honey from anything in the first year without killing the hive.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> My concern is newbies


You can relax Ace. I believe that the majority of new beekeepers have had different experiences than yourself. 

Newbies often read numerous beekeeping books before getting bees and some have actual mentors... 

Take a deep breath, and relax. The Newbies are not your responsibility. 

You are not the Sisyphus that will push the Newbies up the beekeeping learning curve...


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## MikeinCarolina (Mar 9, 2014)

Acebird said:


> Was I beating up on him? So sorry. My concern is newbies that buy a nuc and want instant gratification. Is it possible, yeah if you are a 30 year veteran and know what you are doing but a newbie is very very unlikely able to harvest honey from anything in the first year without killing the hive.


My bees have done it twice now and I dont yet have 20 years under my bee keepers belt. 

YMMV


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

Not knowing your locAtion, but if you wanted a nuc where I am and you wanted local bees, not imported from the south. The a earliest you would see someone make splits/ graft/ increase would April 1. That means they have a laying queen approximately may 1. Now if you want the bees in the nuc to be hers it should be about 3 weeks later that you get your bees. He might have to adjust some to get pollen frame, and enough honey. However, if you want on May 1, or early April you might get last year's queen, 3 frames of brood from various hive, and a pollen frame, and a honey frame. So, what would you want.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Andrew Dewey said:


> It is virtually unheard of here to get honey from a first year hive - even one given drawn comb.


I would politely say that statement is very untrue. Maybe your locale-


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

MikeinCarolina said:


> My bees have done it twice now and I dont yet have 20 years under my bee keepers belt.
> 
> YMMV


I am making nucs now for my customers. I am in Piedmont and coastal NC. Originally I am from central NH and that is where these nucs will get delivered. I didn't want to push back my date. But after 2 bad cell builders- pushed back a week. From my experience, customers calling, texting, fb, email causes stress. It is largely cause bees sold out and they are nervous. I text a Picture back of whatever bees are in front of me. Everyone is fine. Just want to be ensured they get their nucs. 
What you are doing causes stress, but it isn't wrong. If the supplier doesn't honestly communicate delay, you will want that info filled. 

You're ending the main flow here in a few weeks. Imo, feed/set them so they brood up. 
....this cold spell in the Piedmont sucked....


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Oh and yea. You can make. Honey crop off an early nucs. 
My ow nucs capped honey on the mustard flow.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Sunday Farmer said:


> Oh and yea. You can make. Honey crop off an early nucs.
> My ow nucs capped honey on the mustard flow.


Please don't make blanket statements like this. Beekeeping is extremely local. You as an experienced beekeeper should get that.

John Lovell in 1926 wrote of a 30 pound average surplus in my area and went on to say that there are no good locations (for keeping bees) along the Coast of Maine.

Maybe you missed the word "here" in my post. The point I was trying to make is that not everyone, everywhere should be expecting to make honey from a first year nuc.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Andrew, I understand your point and have a lot of respect for you as a beekeeper. Might I ask what it takes to maximize the crop potential in your area in terms of frames of bees/brood and more importantly when these hives need to reach that size threshold?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

6-8 frames of brood and booming colony to fully support them. Killing frost average date of September 15 does not help. I sometimes get a late spring/early summer crop but most years I harvest primarily from Goldenrod/Aster. The bees visit a variety of other things as well but the crop is primarily made up of those nectars due to quantity available more than anything.

My best results came the year I made up super booming colonies with lots of foragers by adding frames of capped brood 5-6 weeks before the Goldenrod flow. I added something like 4-5 frames of capped brood to colonies I thought had a large enough population to keep them warm. That created colonies with 10+ frames of brood. The consequence of creating the boomers was dooming the donor colonies - I thought I left them with enough resources to squeak through but it turned out to be a learning experience for me!

Nuc delivery isn't for another two weeks here. Packages started 4/20 are consuming winter patties while it has not been warm enough for syrup. 32 degrees this morning. Our last frost is generally around June 5-10.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Andrew Dewey said:


> Please don't make blanket statements like this. Beekeeping is extremely local. You as an experienced beekeeper should get that.
> 
> John Lovell in 1926 wrote of a 30 pound average surplus in my area...
> 
> Maybe you missed the word "here" in my post. The point I was trying to make is that not everyone, everywhere should be expecting to make honey from a first year nuc.


I did miss the word "here". As in, I thought you were being repetitious with "hear." As in a spelling mistake, because, Mike is from NC, near where I am, and I didn't see from that terse statement, how it assisted him with his inquiry. And to be fair, and to both of us, I did start with the word, politely. Here in NC, nucs are sold, IMO, relatively late compared with the corresponding period of flow in the north. There is a long summer dearth, we are in main flow now and it will be over in a few weeks. If this is a standard practie in many places, then we are going to get statements, which lead people to say "you can't make honey on a first year hive" Why? Change the SOPs, set new beeks up for success. Instead of these threads where new beeks are sometimes belittled. 

I am not sure of introduction times but: lustrife, invasive honeysuckle, knotweed (I think this one was pre-1030's) hasn't increased your flow since 1926? Loss of farmland and clover areas in NH, I imagine, lowered ours, but the fall flow with the invasives is nice.


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## MikeinCarolina (Mar 9, 2014)

Thanks for the info Sunday Farmer - was the sort of information I was hoping to get. 

There seems to be some bad blood or something on this forum between beginning bee keepers ( or those perceived as such ) and those with more experience ( or posts ). It must be discouraging to those seeking advice who have no where else to go for help.


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## gfbees13 (Sep 25, 2014)

Here are my two cents, as I am in NC. 

Nucs advertised as first week in April and I picked them up April 18th. That shows that there was about a two week delay. If your weather has been the same as mine, it has been cool and rainy the past couple of weeks, which prevents nucs from being delivered on time. If I were you, I would be patient, but only another week or two. 

A couple of perks from my transaction:

Nuc supplier was 20min away.

I paid in cash.

In Person. 

I hope you get your nucs!


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I have a mother colony that I split from regularly into 10 frame deeps (healthy nucs  ) that have on more than one occasion knocked out 60# surplus of honey their first year. They're not nucs but they're close. I attribute it to their genetics as they're the only hives I have that can do this. And they're mutts  I would have to agree that beekeeping is a local phenomenon.

We had a nasty cold snap 2 weeks ago, if they had to postpone I would expect those nucs to ship by next week.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

rwurster said:


> I split from regularly into 10 frame deeps ...They're not nucs but they're close.


I don't consider a 10 frame deep close to a nuc that the average person would buy or beekeeper would sell. I split hives that have 4 or 5 medium boxes in half for my own use. I would not call them nucs meaning they are the same as the "nucs" that a beginner would buy.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_Math _seems to be such a challenge sometimes ... 

If Rod splits 10 deep frames in a brood box into 2 separate boxes and makes each of them a separate colony, how many frames would that be in each box? 5 frames in each box you say? That kinda sounds like two 5 frame nucs to me, (even after you fill out the box with 5 empty frames). But maybe thats just me. :lpf:





... whats the difference between a 5 frame nuc with an empty box on top, and a 10 frame box with 5 empty frames? ...:scratch:


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I don't consider a 10 frame deep close to a nuc that the average person would buy or beekeeper would sell. ... I would not call them nucs meaning they are the same as the "nucs" that a beginner would buy.


:ws:



Rader Sidetrack said:


> _Math _seems to be such a challenge sometimes ...
> 
> If Rod splits 10 deep frames in a brood box into 2 separate boxes and makes each of them a separate colony, how many frames would that be in each box? 5 frames in each box you say? That kinda sounds like two 5 frame nucs to me, (even after you fill out the box with 5 empty frames). But maybe thats just me. :lpf:... whats the difference between a 5 frame nuc with an empty box on top, and a 10 frame box with 5 empty frames? ...:scratch:


That's pretty much how it goes with any reserves they have left and any drawn comb going in with them. Double 5 frame nucs or a 10 frame deep are the beginnings of my splits(5 frames of resources sometimes 6), and the bees in question typically fill another 10 frame deep with honey, then fill it again for winter. There must be a singularity in Utica (that Ace is stuck in) where physics, math, and common sense utterly break down... lol


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

MikeinCarolina said:


> Thanks for the info Sunday Farmer - was the sort of information I was hoping to get.
> 
> There seems to be some bad blood or something on this forum...


I think bad blood isn't it. We all have different stresses, beliefs, understandings, etc. Sometimes, there are just a lot of questions, and it's online. Not the most natural place to have a human experience. Look at the couple snippets between me and Dewey. Probably could have been a good convo in person...online, more difficult. (..my girlfriend suggested having coffee, and then respond to people.....)


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## MikeinCarolina (Mar 9, 2014)

Still no nucs. I wonder what the chances are of getting my deposit money back ?


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Sorry about your experience so far. I'd hang in there a while yet.

A few folk in my local club are raising nucs this year, and they were started for delivery in early May, but in April we dropped temps to below freezing and had a lot of wind. That set them back by about a month. I imagine that the nucs could have been picked up anyway, but they would have been quite weak.

Is it possible that you know someone else who has ordered from the same place that you did? Sometimes information isn't spread evenly, and others may have more insight.

Best of luck!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

My offer in post #9 still stands less the 220 that Shinebone and his buddy Tim in the Denver area are picking through as I type.


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## MikeinCarolina (Mar 9, 2014)

thanks chemguy but at this point even if the guy was to say come get your nucs they will be practically useless as far as gathering nectar - our flow is about over. They will actually cost me money to try to get into shape to last until next season. Its ridiculous and I really feel like I have been ripped off by an unscrupulous bee keeper.

thanks for the offer Honey 4 - wish I was a lot closer to you.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Mike,

Beekeeping abounds with lots of interesting issue of which the human related ones as is yours are the most upsetting. When people fail to perform it hurts.... 

Yesterday I received a pile of calls out of Montana as an outfit out of Utah has failed to do a timely delivery of packages to 5 stores there. Sure the people at that farm store chain are having a cow dealing with all the calls about the missed delivery date. The people whom called me were none to pleased. 

I ended up tracking down the stores buyer and left a message to see if we could jump in next week and "help" alleviate some of the headache by delivering some next week if the other folks continue to fail to perform.. Hopefully will chat with the buyer and get something arranged tomorrow. 

As per our nucs......My son arrived home last night after dropping the nucs off north of Denver. It was 42 and drizzly when he finished Friday morning. Our patrons patrons picked them up that evening. I received a text last night after checking in to see how the disbursement went and the response said something about 3 inches of rain yesterday and the possibility of a fair amount of snow last night. Wonder how many people are going to starve those infants to death after all the work we put into them????


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Honey-4-All said:


> Wonder how many people are going to starve those infants to death after all the work we put into them????


Resulting in countless complaints to the supplier. As we all know sh....er....stuff flows downhill. And we also know who's at the bottom of that hill.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Mike, I got a few nucs last year from a guy in Eden, NC. They were ready about the third week of May. When we picked them up we (him and me) went into each hive and pulled out the queen, three frames or brood, and two mixed frame. Most of the nucs were on double 5's or single ten deep boxes. The nucs were very strong. Put of the timing for him is when the nuc is strong enough to split, and when he has queen cells available to give back to them to get the queen right again.


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## CardsBees (May 14, 2013)

Flow about over? Really? Here in SouthernPines, NC, an hour away or so, we just got into it a week ago.


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## gfbees13 (Sep 25, 2014)

CardsBees said:


> Flow about over? Really? Here in SouthernPines, NC, an hour away or so, we just got into it a week ago.


That's what I thought. My nucs might get some late season honey. We'll s e how it goes.


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