# Insulating hives



## ramdino (Jan 26, 2013)

I had made some insulation blankets for my hives when the temps got into the single digits earlier this winter. We just don't see single digits here typically. So being a 1st year beek I wanted to ere on the side of caution. Well a few weeks ago I took them off so I could inspect and left them off. Now we are suppose to get 6-12" snow. Temps are suppose to only get to high 20's. In my most productive hive I have a deep that has capped brood in at least 7 of the frames with lots of bees. Shuold I go put my blankets back on so the brood on the outside frames is not chilled?


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Go with your gut instinct, I would put the blankets back on at least till the cold front has passed. 

Could you provine a picture or description of your insulation blanket and how you use it on the hives? I will be insulating my hives in future winters to protect against these extreme temperature swings so the search is on for some type of home spun design that is not too costly......Thanks


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## honeydrunkapiaries (Oct 16, 2013)

They do sell hive wraps up here, but they are unnecessary. Mine are simply wrapped with tar paper (roofing felt), and they have managed just fine in one of the coldest winters in Canada to my recollection.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Studies were done many years ago, you can read about them in the ABC XYZ of Bee Culture, that showed insulating does not help keep the inside of the hive warmer. I have insulated hives myself with foamboard, but I feel that it did more good for me (other than costing me more money) than the bees. Don't misunderstand, whether you insulate or just wrap with tar paper, those two things help with cutting down wind penetrations, which I really feel is much more important and should be the goal. A strong cluster can deal with below zero temperatures, but add in strong winds and it makes it much worse, not because of the wind chill, but the wind forces its way through cracks and crevices in the hive and makes it more drafty which in itself is detrimental to the cluster keeping warm.


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## honeydrunkapiaries (Oct 16, 2013)

The tar paper (being black) helps with solar gains. I have personally observed unwrapped hives being stuck inside the hive, whilst the tar paper wrapped ones were able to get out for a cleansing flight. I also tried open screen bottom boards vs solid bottom boards, finding no significant difference. http://honeydrunkapiaries.blogspot.ca/2014/01/overwintering-experiment-winter-2013.html We have been experiencing weather in the -30F range to give you an idea of the extremes.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Right, the tar paper helps absorb heat on sunnier days, even if its bitter cold outside, and transfers some of that heat to the walls of the hive. Even on cloudy days, I'm sure the tar paper is warmer than the air, even though only slightly.


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## ramdino (Jan 26, 2013)

WWW said:


> Go with your gut instinct, I would put the blankets back on at least till the cold front has passed.
> 
> Could you provine a picture or description of your insulation blanket and how you use it on the hives? I will be insulating my hives in future winters to protect against these extreme temperature swings so the search is on for some type of home spun design that is not too costly......Thanks


 Basically I just took two pieces of 30# roofing felt and batt insulation and made a sandwich out of it. Duct taped the edges together and then wrapped it around the hives with duct tape. I made sure there was enough room for the bees to come and go at the bottom.


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## LAndrus (Dec 29, 2013)

I wonder who did that research. Prior to moving to North Carolina, I lived in SE Idaho and insulated houses. If insulation doesn't keep the inside of a hive warmer, why do we insulate our homes? To keep heat IN and cold OUT. I plan on insulating my hives with 3/4 inch foam board which will stay on year round.


jmgi said:


> Studies were done many years ago, you can read about them in the ABC XYZ of Bee Culture, that showed insulating does not help keep the inside of the hive warmer. I have insulated hives myself with foamboard, but I feel that it did more good for me (other than costing me more money) than the bees. Don't misunderstand, whether you insulate or just wrap with tar paper, those two things help with cutting down wind penetrations, which I really feel is much more important and should be the goal. A strong cluster can deal with below zero temperatures, but add in strong winds and it makes it much worse, not because of the wind chill, but the wind forces its way through cracks and crevices in the hive and makes it more drafty which in itself is detrimental to the cluster keeping warm.


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## Bob J (Feb 25, 2013)

LAndrus said:


> I wonder who did that research. Prior to moving to North Carolina, I lived in SE Idaho and insulated houses. If insulation doesn't keep the inside of a hive warmer, why do we insulate our homes? To keep heat IN and cold OUT. I plan on insulating my hives with 3/4 inch foam board which will stay on year round.


The bees heat the cluster not the hive..... Ambient temp inside the hive will not be much above the outside air temp....


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## LAndrus (Dec 29, 2013)

If the hive is insulated, and the warm air generated by the cluster can't escape, it seems logical that the ambient temp inside the hive would stay higher. I believe that is the purpose of insulation, to keep the warm in and the cold out.


Bob J said:


> The bees heat the cluster not the hive..... Ambient temp inside the hive will not be much above the outside air temp....


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## LSHonda310 (Mar 30, 2013)

LAndrus said:


> If the hive is insulated, and the warm air generated by the cluster can't escape, it seems logical that the ambient temp inside the hive would stay higher. I believe that is the purpose of insulation, to keep the warm in and the cold out.


if warm air can't escape then moisture will build up and start dripping down on the bees, then you will have wet dead bees
venilation is needed to keep moisture down
what is the purpose of putting a bunch of insulation on only to let the cold air in when the heat excapes through ventilation?


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

It is a misconception to say interior temp of an insulated hive is not much above outside ambient. 

A heat source(cluster of bees) inside a closed insulated enclosure will raise the internal temp. A significant factor on how much inside temp increases is how much ventilation is going on. If there is a large flow of air, ambient temp will not increase appreciably

If both bottom and top entrances are reduced to minimal size to reduce ventilation to a minimum yet adequate internal temp rises significantly. Temp rise varies significantly from next to outside wall to just above cluster.

From my experience with two side 1/2 by 3/8 inch bottom entrances, the temp above the inner cover is 20-30F warmer than outside ambient.


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## ramdino (Jan 26, 2013)

LSHonda310 said:


> if warm air can't escape then moisture will build up and start dripping down on the bees, then you will have wet dead bees
> venilation is needed to keep moisture down
> what is the purpose of putting a bunch of insulation on only to let the cold air in when the heat excapes through ventilation?


I have reduced my entrances but do not block them with the blanket. I have also installed 1" spaces under my bottom board that have a gap in one side and added paint sticks under my top cover. I also have sugar blocks on the top frames that are feeding and absorbing moisture. Hopefully this is providing proper ventilation to get the moisture out or at least absorb what does not get out.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

The studies that I referred to, used at least 118 temperature sensors located throughout each two story hive in the study, these were double walled hives with extreme degrees of insulation. 
They found that even in these highly insulated hives in a protracted cold spell, the air temperatures in the hives were all at ambient except right at the very edge of the cluster where the temperature was around between 43 and 46 degrees. That proves that the bees don't heat the hive, only their cluster.

Now, if you wrap your hive with tar paper, on a sunny day the paper will absorb heat and transfer it to the walls of the hive, which in turn probably heats up the interior of the hive above ambient. That is different than saying the bees heat up the hive above ambient and the insulation conserves that heat.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

What was the size of the bottom entrance and top entrances? Amount of ventilation is a very significant factor. If there is lots of ventilation, then internal temp will not increase much over outside ambient.

As an analogy, run a furnace in an insulated house and open the doors and what would inside temp be?

Temp above my inner cover is 20-30F warmer than ambient.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

They did not say an exact measurement, only that they were using greatly reduced hive entrances. No mention of whether top entrances were used. They also said that a benefit of using insulation is that it retards the rate of temperature change within the unoccupied hive space, helps it cool down more slowly with sudden outside drop in temperature, allowing the cluster to contract slower. On the other hand, insulation can slow the transfer of warmth from the outside to the inside when outside temperatures are rising quickly, this can hurt because the bees may not benefit from being able to take a quick cleansing flight.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The bees heat the cluster not the hive..... 

I spent a good portion of my life outdoors in a very harsh climate. I guarantee that small things make a huge difference in how cold you are. I have put plywood up in a metal building and you could feel the difference in how much warmer it was and this is a three sided building with the front open. I doubt a thermometer would show much difference, but my ears, nose, fingers and body could sure tell the difference that 3/4" of wood made on only three sides of a three sided building with the front still open to the air. The tempearture in my living room stays the same whether you leave the back door open or not... but it takes a lot more heat...


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## LAndrus (Dec 29, 2013)

Please understand that I am no expert. I'm new to keeping bees and learn something from every response. With that said, Do you not create moisture when you breathe? YES you do. Does that moisture condense onto the ceiling of your insulated house and rain down upon your head? It doesn't in my home. Why? Because my home, while insulated, is also ventilated. A well insulated and ventilated hive shouldn't experience a condensation problem. I also understand that the bees heat the cluster and not the hive. However, if the heat from the cluster is allowed to remain in the hive, does it not make sense that over time, as that heat rises and hits an insulated cover, the entire hive temperature will also rise. Maybe not to the same temp as the cluster, but warmer than the ambient temperature outside. I'm thinking that 20-30 degrees would make a huge difference in a hive surviving a winter.


LSHonda310 said:


> if warm air can't escape then moisture will build up and start dripping down on the bees, then you will have wet dead bees
> venilation is needed to keep moisture down
> what is the purpose of putting a bunch of insulation on only to let the cold air in when the heat excapes through ventilation?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

LAndrus, the studies have already been done which show that the small amount of heat that a cluster creates does not add to the warmth of the whole hive. When their warm moist air hits the colder roof and walls it condenses, but good ventilation will carry away most of that moisture so that it doesn't become a problem. People keep trying to compare the inside of an insulated hive in winter to our insulated homes in winter, it simply doesn't work the same, I know that I have a hard time comprehending it also, I guess that's why I keep insulating hives every year.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

jmgi said:


> LAndrus, the studies have already been done . . . ..


 Link to the study, please.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

jmgi said:


> LAndrus, the studies have already been done which show that the small amount of heat that a cluster creates does not add to the warmth of the whole hive.


This is only correct if one has a draft going up through hive as a result of entrance size in bottom entrance and inner cover holes and top entrances. Again, in the study noted, what were the bottom and top entrance sizes?

A minimal bottom entrance of 5/8-1 inch by 3/8 restricts the air flow to minimal for ventilation and allows the cluster heat to warm the interior above ambient. If interior temp gets to 40F plus because of insulation and minimal air flow and black exterior paper, cluster is going to be better able to move to new stores. Just checked my hive and with 0F ambient, temp above the inner cover is 36F.

Minimal ventilation likely results in some condensation on comb and side walls and is a good thing to provide a winter water supply. Noted Ian in his indoor wintering of singles was looking for condensation on comb adjacent to cluster. Just don't want excess humidity and condensation overhead. In additio to top entrances, I added ventilated quilt boxes above my inner covers and they are very effective for venting moisture.

Insulation also will only moderate interior temp swings relative to exterior if there is minimal ventialtion. If there is a signficant draft going on, interior temp will closely follow exterior swings.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

While it is not the bees' intent,* heat does leak from the cluster and can heat the interior of the hive. In the case of a strong hive, this heat leakage can warm the hive interior by as much as 80F above the ambient air temps:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291469-Winter-time-fun&highlight=winter+time+fun


I have a bunch more data that I have collected to enter. The general trend is pretty much the same for all the hives, so far.




*"intent" is used tongue-in-cheek, since insects can't form an "intent" as the word is commonly used


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I'm looking forward to getting my hives up and running and using my thermal imager on them. When they've deliberately warmed their flight muscles up (necessary for foraging) they can be as warm as we are. Attached is a thermal image I made last year of an individual forager on a bloom. The hot spot is the thorax, and it is unambiguously warmer that the environment or even the rest of the bee.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Shinbone, 80F seems like a lot and I would think the probe is next to or within the cluster at 80F rise.

What size is the opening in your bottom entrance? Doesn't look like much more than 1/2 wide by?3/4 high. But minimal and corraborates my point about interior temp and how much ventilation is occurring. Ventialtion is greatly reduced but adequate.

Do you have shavings in the top vent box? I added a screen to the bottom of my vent boxes and layed a piece of burlap on top of the screen and filled with shavings. An area bee keeper was telling me that he wintered 15 out of 15 hives last winter(long and cold winter), and the only significant difference in winter preparation was that he used vented quilt boxes. Two of my four hives had died out.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

All of my hives have interior temps above ambient temps, although there is substantial variation on just how high above ambient each hive is. The 80F example is the highest I have seen and that hive is always close to 80F, irregardless of the ambient air temps. The lowest is about 5F above ambient, and varies substantially with the ambient temps.

While one can argue that the high temps (or any of the above-ambient temps, for that matter) are due to the cluster having enveloped the sensor, that can't always be true because the cluster would eventually exhaust the honey resources in that area and would then move to another region hive and no longer be close to the sensor. In other words, the "close cluster" argument is only a temporary explanation, and one finally has to conclude that the bees are indeed heating the interior of the hive. 

1/2" x 1/2" is a good approximation of the bottom entrances. Typical upper entrances vary from 1/2" x 1/2" to 3" x 1/2".

The tops are the Honey Run Apiaries All Season Inner Covers with a piece of foam insulation in place:

http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/store/all-season-inner-cover-p-232.html


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The thermodynamics of a bee hive are much more complicated that just measuring the temperature of the cluster and the temperature of the hive.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Michael - So true!

The thermodynamics of a living entity are hugely complicated. My simple little measurements only serve to show the bees do heat the interior of the hive. My only intent with my measurements was to be able know when a hive died out over the winter by showing when a hive interior had cooled down to ambient temps.


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## Jon B (Apr 24, 2013)

Here is a post I wrote about how I insulate and wrap my hives. I was please with the results this year.

http://sidelinebeekeeping.com/2013/11/13/wrapping-hives/


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

shinbone said:


> Michael - So true!
> 
> The thermodynamics of a living entity are hugely complicated. My simple little measurements only serve to show the bees do heat the interior of the hive. My only intent with my measurements was to be able know when a hive died out over the winter by showing when a hive interior had cooled down to ambient temps.


The standing joke about physicists: "Assume a spherical cow ..."


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## LAndrus (Dec 29, 2013)

Well, there must be something to insulating hives or so many beekeepers wouldn't continue to research the benefits or drawbacks insulating their hives, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. As I live in the coastal plain of North Carolina, we experience very hot and humid summers. I may be wrong, but I believe that a hive insulated year round with 3/4" foam board will help the hive to remain cooler in our hot and humid summers. As long as I provide adequate ventilation. More research on my part is called for.


jmgi said:


> LAndrus, the studies have already been done which show that the small amount of heat that a cluster creates does not add to the warmth of the whole hive. When their warm moist air hits the colder roof and walls it condenses, but good ventilation will carry away most of that moisture so that it doesn't become a problem. People keep trying to compare the inside of an insulated hive in winter to our insulated homes in winter, it simply doesn't work the same, I know that I have a hard time comprehending it also, I guess that's why I keep insulating hives every year.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

mgolden said:


> This is only correct if one has a draft going up through hive as a result of entrance size in bottom entrance and inner cover holes and top entrances. Again, in the study noted, what were the bottom and top entrance sizes?


This particular study did not give an exact entrance size, all it said was that it was a greatly reduced entrance. You can read into that whatever you want, if you think that the study was flawed because they used an entrance size that you assume was too large, and it caused excessive draftiness, which removed any beneficial whole hive heating, then there is nothing I can say to prove it otherwise.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> The thermodynamics of a bee hive are much more complicated that just measuring the temperature of the cluster and the temperature of the hive.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering


How honey bees are able to withstand prolonged severe cold in uninsulated hives is something that always amazes me, so there definitely is some special thermodynamics going on in the hive that we can't always fully understand.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Also, I am in the camp that thermal insulation (as opposed to wrapping a hive to seal out wind) does little if anything to help a hive survive cold temps in most locations.

As long as the hive is healthy and of reasonable size, and is in well maintained equipment, they will survive the winter unless they go off their winter stores. If they lose contact with their food, no amount of insulation will save them.

You'd have to go pretty far north or south before insulation becomes worthwhile.

Just the opinion of a newbie.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

shinbone, I have gone through most of your posts of your temperature readings, but I didn't see you mention what time of day you did the bulk of the readings (except a reference to readings taken one morning), I don't know if they were all taken about the same time of day on the days you did them or not. My questioning this is because when taking temperature readings during the daylight hours you are bound to get higher readings inside than ambient due to solar gain. Did you take any readings well after dusk or well before sunrise, those would be the more accurate readings as to whether or not the bees contribute heating to the whole of the hive? Maybe I just overlooked your reference to time of day as I was quickly scanning through your posts.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

jmgi - About half the readings were taken in the dark before sunrise (as I left the house for work), and about half the readings were taken in the early evening at dusk (when I came home from work).

My guess is that in the wintertime for hive box of a light natural pine color (which most of mine are), there is little solar gain. I also should note, that I see little difference between the hives that are wrapped in black insulation (Colony Quilt) and the hives that are unwrapped.

Although I may still set something up this year, next year I will set up an empty hive with a sensor in it to measure solar gain.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

shinbone, based on your observations then, it would seem to contradict the findings in the study I was referring to in the ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture, that being the cluster and immediately next to it were the only temperature probe readings that were much above ambient in the whole hive. That study appears to me on the surface to have been well done (massachusetts state college) and the results thoroughly recorded using over 118 sensors in a two story hive, so I don't know what the reason would be for their results to not be in line with your simpler experiment, you seem to have done a good job yourself with your small study. Either there is some solar heat gain or heat loss not being factored in somewhere with either experiment, or the bees themselves contribute more to hive heating than most think.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> The thermodynamics of a bee hive are much more complicated that just measuring the temperature of the cluster and the temperature of the hive.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering


Reading your above link, many good points on thermodynamics to be sure, but still the question arises as to the predominant source of the heat gain in the wintering hive. We know the bees add some degree of heat generated by the cluster, and the solar gain obviously contributes heat, so we should accept that during daylight hours both sources work together at different degrees to raise internal hive temperatures. IMO, during daylight hours the solar gain is the biggest contributor, and quite possibly during nightime hours also because of the heat sink created in the stored honey.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

jmgi said:


> IMO, during daylight hours the solar gain is the biggest contributor, and quite possibly during nightime hours also because of the heat sink created in the stored honey.


Respectfully, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about if you think solar gain can create an 80F temp differential in an uninsulated hive when ambient temp is 0F.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

shinbone said:


> Respectfully, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about if you think solar gain can create an 80F temp differential in an uninsulated when ambient temp is 0F.


I don't think it will on a wooden box, either, but you ought to see my Revere collectors at work on a sunny January day. On a summer day they can boil water.

My question is, have either one of you done more than measure a temperature or two? Installed any heat flow sensors? (I have 7 heat flow sensors within reach of me right now.) Assayed the various ways heat can be lost, including air flow, evaporation (and condensation), leaky insulation, i.e. all the things involved in a home energy audit? Done any thermography? Know how to construct a guarded calorimeter? Measured hive weight loss versus energy use? No? Me either, but I intend to.

What I expect to find is a superorganism exploiting stored energy to regulate temperature, but whatever I can actually measure must trump what I expect.

In support of shinbone, as a surrogate for a wooden hive, how about a 1440 square foot log cabin, with two 4'x8' solar hydronic heat collectors driving a radiant heat floor. The building still needs some insulation but it is better insulated than a hive, and with a far superior volume to surface area ratio. It faces south and gets full sun. I'm still hoping to get this system to the point where it won't freeze in the winter. I'm close, but not there yet.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Phoebee said:


> My question is, have either one of you done more than measure a temperature or two? Installed any heat flow sensors? (I have 7 heat flow sensors within reach of me right now.) Assayed the various ways heat can be lost, including air flow, evaporation (and condensation), leaky insulation, i.e. all the things involved in a home energy audit? Done any thermography? Know how to construct a guarded calorimeter? Measured hive weight loss versus energy use? No? Me either, but I intend to.


Phoebee - that all sounds impressive, but it is just words until you actually do all that to a beehive. How about you post the results for us to see when you are done?

jus say'n


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I know it is all words ... gotta admit, that's what you two have been doing.

It would appear that nobody has actually done this sort of testing definitively and, considering I've been gearing up to do this sort of tests on the solar cabin where our hives are going in, I guess I must be the guy who gets to do it. Frankly, I'm amazed that this has not been done. And given my personality, there is no way I'll go to this effort without sharing.

And after posting my ideas, I read Mr. Bush's. I think he's pretty much got it, just somebody needs to prove it.

I would be willing to bet that nobody else here has the head start on equipment ($2700 data acquisition system, $2000 thermal imager, career in instrumentation and testing, and newly-discovered way to make $5 heat flow sensors instead of $280 heat flow sensors). A few have hive scales, but not too many outside of universities can log weight continuously.

Indulge me. I won't have bees until mid April, and then I won't have winter until next winter.

The easiest way to debunk the idea that it is solar gain will be fairly simple. Peltier effect cooling devices are thermopiles, and will generate voltage proportional to heat flow. I've calibrated a handful, but they don't even need calibration to prove or disprove this point. Just stick them on the hive roof and sides. If more heat is going out than in, averaged over a cold sunny day and night, well, there's that possibility gone.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Phoebee said:


> Indulge me.


I wish you luck, and I look forward to seeing your results next year.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

This thread has got me all curious. In the next few weeks, I will see if I can set up a simple way to measure solar gain.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Got a digital voltmeter? Got enough patience to take a bunch of readings, day and night?

One of these will put out a bit over 0.1 volts in full sunlight with a heat sink on the back (I'll make a couple of these into proper pyranometers). That's the highest solar input you would see. So stick a few of these in the walls and top of the hives, and measure heat flow in and out. They respond with the same sensitivity either way. I'd bet a healthy hive flows more heat out than in, averaged over the day. Of course, after this winter, they may be nearly out of fuel. Quite a few have starved.

http://www.mpja.com/Thermoelectric-Cooling-Module-127-couple-12VDC/productinfo/30207 PM/

That's the other proof, of course. If the bees are dead, likely the hives will be considerably cooler than healthy hives, but we don't wanna go there. If you have extra hive components you might build a dead hive.


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## chimneysweep (May 9, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> The tempearture in my living room stays the same whether you leave the back door open or not... but it takes a lot more heat...


Exactly right, it is not about temperature it is about heat. In the case of a beehive, the fuel to produce that heat is honey. Assuming that the hive is not overly drafty, insulation will reduce the heat loss and help to conserve honey. Another benefit will be less moisture because the bees are metabolizing less honey. I can't say how much difference insulation makes since I have not done tests, but I do believe that it does make a significant difference during an average North Dakota winter.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>he standing joke about physicists: "Assume a spherical cow ..." 

Yeah, I love the joke Leonard on "The Big Bang Theory" tells at his presentation, and I think it could easily be adapted to bees...

This beekeeper has a friend who is a scientist, so he asks him to help him with the issues his bees are having. They do a bit of research and measurements and the scientist goes home to work on it and comes back in a few days. "I have the solution", he says, " but it only works on spherical bees in a vacuum..."

And that is the problem with science. It only works under precise conditions, probably in a lab...

"It will be readily appreciated that in the course of many years and daily contact with bees, the professional bee-keeper will of necessity gain a knowledge and insight into the mysterious ways of the honeybee, usually denied to the scientist in the laboratory and the amateur in possession of a few colonies. Indeed, a limited practical experience will inevitably lead to views and conclusions, which are often completely at variance to the findings of a wide practical nature. The professional bee-keeper is at all times compelled to assess things realistically and to keep an open mind in regard to every problem he may be confronted with. He is also forced to base his methods of management on concrete results and must sharply differentiate between essentials and inessentials."--Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, Brother Adam


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

The study is described in the ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture, 34th edition, starting on page 684. I have a copy of the book. This is all I can give you, don't know how I can give a link to that, maybe there is some way to read the book online, I don't know.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Michael,

I fully appreciate that the bees themselves complicate the tests. For one thing, they won't stay in a predictable part of the hive, and I think your reasoning on that is likely spot-on (if difficult to prove). Sticking a thermocouple in a hive is child's play. But sticking 18 thermocouples in a hive becomes a problem. I could add a second 16-channel A/D board to the datalogger (I could add a total of 6 boards if I had the need and the money), but then we'd have all these wires stuck in prophylis on frames that are supposed to come out. It is not impossible, but not easy. So the temperature of the bees is kind of catch as catch can. Similarly, heat flow will vary with where the bees are. But still, heat flow sensors do offer the ability to see if heat flow is more out than in, which will demonstrate that there is clearly heat being generated within the hive. And heat flow sensors would be in the walls. Air flow is the harder problem, but I can think of a few ways to approach it.

But it is quite clear to me that bees run incredibly hot when they want to, and the superorganism is a non-trivial source of heat.

The other half of the problem is _easy_. If you eliminate the bees, do all those other means of heating the colony provide significant warming? This part I understand fairly well, since solar heating is a hobby of mine. I know how to build effective solar heat collectors. Hives can have a little solar gain, but not much. If painted black they might actually absorb a little more heat than they lose until their temperature rises a little, on average, over their surroundings. But painted a light color, as most are, they will have high albedo (reflect radiant energy, especially in the visible range) but high emissivity (emit infrared almost as well as a blackbody). In other words, little if any solar gain. To be an effective solar gain device they would need windows or some active method of switching from absorbing radiant heat in the day to conserving it at night.

Basically, just determine that a live colony is warm and thermoregulates and a dead colony is cold and doesn't.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

shinbone said:


> Respectfully, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about if you think solar gain can create an 80F temp differential in an uninsulated hive when ambient temp is 0F.


I have no problem with you disagreeing with my opinion, opinions aren't necessarily fact. We're all here to learn, take advice if you so choose, give suggestions, give opinions. I'm not trying to discredit what conclusions you have drawn to your experiments, just saying that there appears to be contradictory results coming out of some different studies, and I, my curious self, am just trying to dig for a trustworthy set of facts and conclusions about the matter, if possible. Just trying to learn what's going on here with winter hive heating, and its sources.

I do find it to be interesting that you would get such a large temperature differential (80 degrees) between ambient and hive internal on this one particular hive, when none of the others exhibited anywhere near this magnitude of difference. You surely could get that high of a reading if the probe was inserted into a brood rearing cluster, but it wouldn't show that same differential continuously over time, as you said, as the cluster shifted around. That one does puzzle me.

Anyway, I just did a little temperature test myself on three of my hives in the home yard here. The hives are all wintering in single 10 frame deeps, standard solid bottom boards with entrance reduced to 1-1/2" x 3/8". I have 3-1/2" high feed rims on all three of these hives (right on top of the single deep) with 3/4" upper entrance/ventilation hole drilled in the front lower center of the feed rims. An inner cover is on top of the feed rim. All hives face south and get full sun all day. All hives are insulated with 2" pink foamboard on all four sides and 4" foamboard on top of the outer cover. Hives are all very close to equal strength with clusters covering about 5-6 frames well. At 10:00 am this morning it was 16 degrees F, no wind, clear sky. I put a 6" long temperature probe into the hive upper entrance/ventilation hole of the rim and let it stay there for about 5 minutes to stabilize before recording the temperature. About 4" of the probe length was actually inside the feed rim itself and resting very near the top of the top bars themselves. Every single hive of the three recorded a temperature of about 38 degrees +/- 1 degree. I know for a fact that the probes were not inserted into any cluster of bees, but probably within a few inches horizontally of the top of the cluster at most.

I'm going to go out at about 3 pm and do the same readings again.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

jmgi - Fair enough and I am glad to hear that you are doing some measurements.

I should point out that I improved the temp sensor on Hive #6 so it shows temp more consistently than when I first posted the temp data. The new data going forward after that improvement shows Hive #6 to be generally as warm as Hive #10.

I should also point out that Hives #6 and #10 are big strong active hives with lots of flight traffic on fly-able days, meaning that it is not surprising that they have the highest temp readings out of the group, although I would not have expected their internal temps to be as high as they are. Those bees keep their houses warmer than I keep mine!


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

And then we introduce a 3# package of bees---, into said spherical hive, at 29" of
negitive pressure, at a temperature of absolute zero, at see level , in a regulated
and monitored nuteral gravitational field, and electromagneticly shielded environment,,,,,,,,,,,,,
---and observe the outcome....lol....

Come on---these are bees in a wooden box ,not aliens in area 51...lighten up, its almost
spring--The bees want out....

==McBee7==

ps. I think I forgot to mention that the hive was filled with liquid nitrogen....:O


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

@ McBee7:  You get it!

I could use some help in deciding how to instrument hives for this. Data acquisition I'm good at. Thermocouples are second nature. Load cells, stock in trade. Heat flow, probably one of a dozen people in the world who know about $5 sensors.

Bees. Man, am I a noob. Still in bee school, two empty hives in the garage. Nucs on order.

I have a window to get the woodenware prepared, but I need some guidance as to how many boxes to instrument, and how many temperature sensors where. I know the bees tend to move up in the hive during winter, not so much where they hang out and when.

If I had an unlimited budget (heck, any reasonable research budget at all) I'd throw channels at this. The ideal setup I think would be to put a thermocouple down through every top bar wire hole on every other frame. That would imbed a TC in the comb adjacent to every place bees can congregate. The thin wires would route out along the frame tops and exit between supers, so they could be examined in the normal fashion. Ideally you would instrument every super you intend to overwinter this way. But that would be too many temperature points unless I expand the system (about $1000 per set of 16 channels). 

Next winter is just proof of concept and a little data ... any reasonable research project would call for many hives. 20 sounds like a good number, half insulated, half not.

My original plan for next winter was to use one thermocouple and an electronic hive scale per hive, as a little parallel project to monitoring performance of the solar heating system on the cabin, two pyranometer channels (sun intensity sensors), with some weather data recorded. If I don't expand the system, just one super will take all my available channels (5 heat flow sensors, 9 thermocouples, outside temperature, and hive weight). And at that, the project is under-instrumented with regard to weather and sunshine. I think I have to bite the bullet and throw another 16-channel card at the system, minimum.

I hope to put a microphone in each hive and occasionally measure their buzz. I can look at the noise through a FFT spectrum analysis package and do a little apidiction to roughly gage colony activity. I expect the spectrum to be very different from summer norms. I would expect their buzz levels would correspond with heat generation.

Where will the bees be, and how many points would you think need to be measured?


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## ramdino (Jan 26, 2013)

jmgi said:


> I have no problem with you disagreeing with my opinion, opinions aren't necessarily fact. We're all here to learn, take advice if you so choose, give suggestions, give opinions. I'm not trying to discredit what conclusions you have drawn to your experiments, just saying that there appears to be contradictory results coming out of some different studies, and I, my curious self, am just trying to dig for a trustworthy set of facts and conclusions about the matter, if possible. Just trying to learn what's going on here with winter hive heating, and its sources.
> 
> I do find it to be interesting that you would get such a large temperature differential (80 degrees) between ambient and hive internal on this one particular hive, when none of the others exhibited anywhere near this magnitude of difference. You surely could get that high of a reading if the probe was inserted into a brood rearing cluster, but it wouldn't show that same differential continuously over time, as you said, as the cluster shifted around. That one does puzzle me.
> 
> ...


I would be curious to see your results if you placed a layer of tar paper around one hive and see if that makes a difference from the sun. You have a good baseline with all hives close to the same conditions.


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## ramdino (Jan 26, 2013)

ramdino said:


> I would be curious to see your results if you placed a layer of tar paper around one hive and see if that makes a difference from the sun. You have a good baseline with all hives close to the same conditions.


Another good bit of data to have would be to set up a hive exactly like your other hives but with no bees and then do the measurements to see if the bees made a difference.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Do you really use tar paper, or is it black roofing felt? I can't remember ever seeing tar paper sold in my lifetime. Roofing felt I keep on hand. Roofing felt has a slight insulating capability, but true tar paper likely would be more thermally conductive (better at absorbing heat, not as good at retaining it). If the tar got hot enough to melt, tar paper would have phase change storage capacity as well.

Yeah, a couple of my posts suggest trying a hive with no bees, or (if you are unfortunate enough to have one) a dead hive.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Phoebee said:


> Do you really use tar paper, or is it black roofing felt? I can't remember ever seeing tar paper sold in my lifetime. Roofing felt I keep on hand. Roofing felt has a slight insulating capability, but true tar paper likely would be more thermally conductive (better at absorbing heat, not as good at retaining it).


I use whatever you call the stuff that you put on the roof before you shingle it. I call it tar paper. Actually I think the label on it says 15 lb. roofing felt. The only real heat gain you get from it is during daylight hours of course.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

ramdino said:


> I would be curious to see your results if you placed a layer of tar paper around one hive and see if that makes a difference from the sun. You have a good baseline with all hives close to the same conditions.


Are you talking about putting tar paper over the insulation, or just the tar paper right on the hive?


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## ramdino (Jan 26, 2013)

Phoebee said:


> Do you really use tar paper, or is it black roofing felt? I can't remember ever seeing tar paper sold in my lifetime. Roofing felt I keep on hand. Roofing felt has a slight insulating capability, but true tar paper likely would be more thermally conductive (better at absorbing heat, not as good at retaining it). If the tar got hot enough to melt, tar paper would have phase change storage capacity as well.
> 
> Yeah, a couple of my posts suggest trying a hive with no bees, or (if you are unfortunate enough to have one) a dead hive.


The correct term is roofing felt. It comes in two weights 15# and 30#. Since it does not insulate but only helps with heat gain during the sun , the 15# would work fine. They both cost the same though as they come in a roll, the 15# has twice the running feet in a roll as the 30# since it is 1/2 the weight. The #30 may last longer since it is thicker.


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## ramdino (Jan 26, 2013)

jmgi said:


> Are you talking about putting tar paper over the insulation, or just the tar paper right on the hive?


For research purposes Both.


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## ramdino (Jan 26, 2013)

ramdino said:


> The correct term is roofing felt. It comes in two weights 15# and 30#. Since it does not insulate but only helps with heat gain during the sun , the 15# would work fine. They both cost the same though as they come in a roll, the 15# has twice the running feet in a roll as the 30# since it is 1/2 the weight. The #30 may last longer since it is thicker.


Be advised if you use roofing felt it can be very stiff in the cold, especially the 30# so you might want to shape it to your hives when it is warm out so it will fit tight without gaps.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

jmgi said:


> LAndrus, the studies have already been done which show that the small amount of heat that a cluster creates does not add to the warmth of the whole hive. When their warm moist air hits the colder roof and walls it condenses, but good ventilation will carry away most of that moisture so that it doesn't become a problem. People keep trying to compare the inside of an insulated hive in winter to our insulated homes in winter, it simply doesn't work the same, I know that I have a hard time comprehending it also, I guess that's why I keep insulating hives every year.


The problem with the American way of wintering is this cold roof. It is ridiculous structure. 

I have 25 years of experience of wintering hives in Finland (latitude of Alaska) with 18mm plywood hives.

The roof is 5 cm (2 inches) polyurethane sheet

The bottom is open to front AND BACK all the way. The back entrance is closed after cleansing flight.

Tar paper around, it does not cover the entrances, so they are free to fly, I have sometime wintered without it, no problems in wintering, spring is harder

No mold, all water condensates on the cold walls, roof stops warm from escaping, average winter sugar consumption is about 1-1,5kg/wintermonth, in spring of course much more when brood rearing starts


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

> the studies have already been done which show that the small amount of heat that a cluster creates does not add to the warmth of the whole hive.


Certainly true in a winter cluster with no brood. Once you find brood this is different.

I find insulation much more necessary in milder climates and winters. For example we had only one night with slight frost this winter. The rest of the winter well above freezing. All hives do have brood right now. Temperatures drop at night close to frost. They are using quite some food right now and it is two month until April when temperatures are stable.

Last year we had a mild winter too, until March/April when it got really cold and temperatures dropped massively. In this setup all the brood was lost, all hives went out of brood and you found chilled brood thrown out in the front of the hives. Except: the hives that were inside a beehouse or were well insulated. Those hives did keep their brood and grew strong, while the other hives significantly suffered bee losses.

So if your winter is stable below freezing temperatures, bees do OK. But if temperatures going up and down all the way, insulation maybe is more needed than in really cold climates.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/solar_heating.htm


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## Bob J (Feb 25, 2013)

We had an interesting demonstration last spring when we drove down to Georgia to pick up packages for our club.... It was a long drive and initially we tried to keep the temperature inside somewhat cold to keep the bees dormant but after a while we slightly increased the temperature for our own comfort.... At one point we got just warm enough for the bees to break cluster and it was amazing how much heat was released.....


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## kokettja (Feb 3, 2011)

I overwinter bees in Minnesota - the average January temp here this year was 2 degrees! And we saw -30 some mornings. A strong colony with adequate feed will overwinter here without doing anything for winter - wrapping or insulating. I wrap my hive because they take less feed & it will increase my odds of success with a smaller cluster. More important than insulation is a strong colony, adequate ventilation & adequate feed! I can't imagine I would wrap or insulate if my low temps never went sub-zero!


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## ycitybz (Jan 2, 2012)

Mike Palmer talks a lot about wrapping hives in the winter. I recently spoke with him and he said a 78" piece of tar paper and a few staples and you are good to go. Just make sure to insulate the inner cover and have a top vent hole (inner cover notch) opened and the hive will vent perfectly. 
Ohio this year is unseasonably cold and every hive I wrapped is doing fantastic. (knock on wood) Last check about 2 weeks ago showed these hives to have clusters still low in the box.


honeydrunkapiaries said:


> They do sell hive wraps up here, but they are unnecessary. Mine are simply wrapped with tar paper (roofing felt), and they have managed just fine in one of the coldest winters in Canada to my recollection.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Solar gain thread comparing various hive wraps:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?293979-Solar-Gain-Tests


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## HIVE+ (Jan 4, 2012)

All this technology is exciting, but while we wait for the results and the implications, we should ponder a 1920 study reported in "The Journal of Economic Entomology":
http://ia700404.us.archive.org/0/it...s on the Value of Winter Protection for Bees"


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## homesteader824 (Jun 9, 2012)

HIVE+ said:


> Do those using "tar paper" seal the top edge against the hive? Convection currents are carrying most of the solar gain away.


Perhaps a tar paper wrap that is sealed with duct tape at the top might be a good option. If it were sealed at the bottom too there would be less air flow, but would it cause moisture problems? I've never wrapped or insulated before, but after this winter I'm reconsidering that.


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## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

I put a remote thermometer probe inside one of my nucs 34 outside 95 inside, I have minimum wind intrusion inside the hive , small entance on bottom and smaller exit at the top, where is that heat going ? Some of it is staying in the box. Unless the box is wide open, what ever heat is in the box does not have to be generated by the bees to maintain 95


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## bbbthingmaker (Sep 26, 2010)

I don't insulate but I use quilt boxes on top. I leave my quilt boxes on year round.


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## HIVE+ (Jan 4, 2012)

Oldiron, I use bs all the time, but I capitalize it. I suppose it was targeted at me and my statement about losing solar gain. What I am referring to is not the internal thermodynamics of the box, but of the outer shell consisting of tar paper and a dead air space. If the wrap is not closed at the top it is not a dead air space and efficiency is reduced by a chimney effect.
I don't have a degree in anything, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. No, I start out, as most in my area, with no protection, then as temperatures start swinging up and down, I panic and add rigid insulation to protect the brood/cluster.
Is my problem with the address (in post #68) that it doesn't have a "www."? I transcribed it, I thought, as it was on my download. Nope, went back and inserted "www.", made no difference.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

well insulating hives never have done that i live at 6000' elevation keep my hives in full sun all year.winter this year down to -20F at nite 0 during the day for a month 3.5 ft snow too.the bees now have been flying for 2 weeks 35 to 40 degrees during the day lost 1 hive out of 11 i suspect early winter, queen died in late fall since on inspection only a hand full of bees plenty of stores left. TF so far so good maples should bloom and day now.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Phoebee said:


> My question is, have either one of you done more than measure a temperature or two? Installed any heat flow sensors? (I have 7 heat flow sensors within reach of me right now.) Assayed the various ways heat can be lost, including air flow, evaporation (and condensation), leaky insulation, i.e. all the things involved in a home energy audit? Done any thermography? Know how to construct a guarded calorimeter? Measured hive weight loss versus energy use? No? Me either, but I intend to.


Phoebee - we are heading into Winter. Have you instrumented a hive? Any results to share? I'd love to have more info than my simple single point temperature measurements.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

shinbone said:


> Phoebee - we are heading into Winter. Have you instrumented a hive? Any results to share? I'd love to have more info than my simple single point temperature measurements.


Best laid plans and all that. The bee-specific data acquisition system development went on hold for the summer. I did, however, rent a trencher last weekend, so the conduit for power and data is now laid from the cabin to the apiary.

The $2700 UEI system is tied up on another job this winter.

I will be using the thermal imager periodically to peek thru the bottom entrance to see if the bees are producing heat. Those shots do show several bands of heat in the bee space below the cluster.


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