# Let's talk trucks



## dback (Jan 8, 2012)

Specifically 350 (8000 GVW) to 550 (19,700 GVW) range. We run 8 trucks (all diesel) .... 2-350, 1-450 and 5-550. Six are Fords and two Dodge......the two newest Fords are the 6.7 "Scorpion" engine and we have blown both of them with less then 40,000. Ford is refusing to pay for the last one so I'm not too happy at the moment. What are you guys using? Pros and cons? International????


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We have an 07 1 ton Duramax Chevy crew cab 4x4 with 100,000+ trouble free miles (best ride and best mileage by far) a 2000 F-350 4x4 7.3 with 175,000 miles (1 rebuilt manual tranny), a 2002 F-450 4x2 7.3 with 110,000 trouble free miles, a 2011 Dodge 5500 4x4 with 20,000 trouble free miles and a POS IH 4300 with just over 200,000 miles. F-550's ? I am staying away from them until Ford shows they know what they are doing with diesel engines. I priced one before buying the Dodge and couldn't see paying about 5 grand more when the Dodge had a better track record with their engines. The Dodge dosent have quite the torque or hp numbers the Ford has but it gets the job done just fine. Probably be getting another Dodge in the near future. To me the 19,500 gvw with a 192" wb and a 14' aluminum bed is the perfect size bee truck for 90% of the stuff we do. It can haul around 10,000 pounds and pull a trailer and it dosent even seem to work it that hard.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

Fords are low on my list, poor quality, purchased 2006 f 450 with 133k miles, I now have new oil cooler, injectors, & is currently at the trans shop, Come to find out that we did good to get 140 k out of trans, as most die around 120k , so ford is low on list. Bill will be about $ 4500,


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

I'm just getting started here but I've been using an old 94 dodge one ton with the cummins turbo diesel( you guys probably went through these trucks already)and I really like what that truck has done for me so far.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Started w/ a 1988 Dodge 1 ton truck (flatbed) and 1987 F-150. My F-150 was the best truck for what I was doing until pollination. Then had a newer Dodge until the engine blew. Had another Dodge for a few months. Had a real problem getting fuel into the darn thing. Had to drive up onto a large chunk of wood to get fuel into it. Then a Ford F-350 for a cpl of years until fuel consumption and repairs caused me to get into a new truck, a 2005 F-450. 

Thought the fuel economy would make the difference. It hasn't. Two EGR Valves and Oil Cooler, a head gasket and a new fuel tank. The tank's lining deteriorated and fouled a bank of injectors. Had been getting around 7mpg, now getting over 10 at times.

I don't hear enough good about other makes to make me want a Dodge or Chevy even w/ all the troubles I have had w/ my Ford. Maybe a small Freightliner? Maybe a Dodge. I have a friend who really likes his. He has had good fortune w/ his Dodge about the same size as my Ford.


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## dback (Jan 8, 2012)

I've even considered going back to gas (v-10). The diesel is a 8k upgrade, diesel is consistently .50 cents more a gallon, DEF, more expensive to have repaired, WAY more expensive to service and 10 x more likely to hydrolock. The estimate for this engine repair is 24k and Ford is telling me to eat it. My big fear is employees (or even myself) will stick the wrong fuel in one of the trucks the minute we start using two types of fuel.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

dback said:


> I've even considered going back to gas (v-10). The diesel is a 8k upgrade, diesel is consistently .50 cents more a gallon, DEF, more expensive to have repaired, WAY more expensive to service and 10 x more likely to hydrolock. The estimate for this engine repair is 24k and Ford is telling me to eat it. My big fear is employees (or even myself) will stick the wrong fuel in one of the trucks the minute we start using two types of fuel.


I can't argue with that logic at all. I told that to the Ford salesmen trying to sell me the 550 and he laughed at me and told me I would be a fool to go gas and then made some incredible claims about mileage with the diesel which I have later learned were way off the mark. He mentioned up to 20 mpg towing and I told him that anyone that comes up with numbers like that must be mathmatically challenged. It is a myth that diesels last longer than gas engines nowadays and pretty much any issue with a diesel is going to be really, really expensive to fix. They can also be a real PITA in winter climates. Folks need to do the math on the whole fuel mileage issue, factor in how hard you will be using it and let the numbers tell them what makes the most sense. Unfortunately Dodge no longer offers a gas engine in their commercial grade C&C's.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

dbeck,
out of warranty I assume? I had some luck going to customer services. Talk to your Dealer and get the contact number. I told the person handling my call how many Fords I have owned and how I wouild buy another. That I had had this repair, the egr and oil cooler, done already, this was the second time. Even after being out of warranty 20,000 miles Ford and the dealership doing the repair took on 2/3s of the repair bill.

Try it. It couldn't hurt. All they can do is say No.

Thanks for saying that about a gas vs deisel Ford engine. I have been wondering about the advantage/disadvantage comparison.

Jim, and too bad Ford is going to automatic transmissions in all models of heavy trucks. I like standard transmissions.


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

I have an '05 GMC 3500 Duramax, 12' bed; no major problems but only around 70,000 miles (one "minor" problem: fuel transfer pump, transfers fuel between tanks, quit working on way back from CA last spring (basically ran out of fuel as it was only pulling from front tank); minor rerpair but then nothing is "minor" when you're left standed in the middle of nowhere in Nevada at night). Only problem with it is it is now too small, would like something a little bigger, leaning towards a Dodge 5500 (if I ever get a honey crop again that is).

Jim: is your Dodge a crew cab? Seems like the 204.5" wb (regular cab) is what I would get, with a 16' bed. Any advantages of a 16' bed over 14'?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Gregg,
Seems to me a 14'3" bed will carry 5 rows of 4way pallets, where a 16' bed would not have enough room for a 6th row.


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

Right, Mark. Thinking a 16' bed would allow room for fume boards or other "stuff" when pulling honey; 4 rows of honey pallets would leave a little extra room on the back.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, it would. What about turning radius? I haul a trailer when pulling honey. Don't you?


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

dback said:


> My big fear is employees (or even myself) will stick the wrong fuel in one of the trucks the minute we start using two types of fuel.


 My partner did that with his personal truck put gas in the diesel right before we started up into the mountains. The truck started pinging and he said "what kind of fuel did I put in at the last station". "gas I think" we turned around and bee lined to his house to drain it. Then we refilled it with diesel and headed back out. Could have been bad, really bad getting stuck 30 miles in the mountains in a bee yard with a broken truck. Off topic sorry.

So I run 150 hives with an Izusu NRP/NRR 16ft and a boom. I get 17 miles to the gallon. I got it used and it goes and goes and goes. I will be pulling a swinger behind it next season (I hope). Love it and it gets the same mileage as my 3/4 ton pickup so pretty good.



sqkcrk said:


> Gregg,
> Seems to me a 14'3" bed will carry 5 rows of 4way pallets, where a 16' bed would not have enough room for a 6th row.


My 16' can carry 5 rows of quad pallets with the boom and 6 with all the boom stuff off since I need to let a few inches hang over the back. But, you could double stack so I could carry 80-96 total on my Isuzu. Since it is Diesel it could handle it. If it were gas I would not even think about it.



sqkcrk said:


> Yes, it would. What about turning radius? I haul a trailer when pulling honey. Don't you?


And I can turn it around in my driveway. My sons girlfriend can even turn her little car around in the driveway. It aways amazes me how tight of a turn Isuzu's make.


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

Yes. Know it would be an issue compared to my little 1 ton. Friend of mine has a F-450 with a 16' bed; took it to CA one year; really had to adjust to the turning radius with that thing (takes about a city block to turn around), just about took out some pallets in the holding yard a couple of times.


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## mulesii (Jun 10, 2012)

I have a 2004 Dodge 2500. I must say, the Cummins is top notch, everything else on the truck is bottom of the barrel. Transmission has always leaked, even after three dealer "fixes", lots of electrical problems, dash split in four places.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

EastSideBuzz said:


> If it were gas I would not even think about it.



Why not?


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## tcsbees (Apr 4, 2012)

mulesii said:


> I have a 2004 Dodge 2500. I must say, the Cummins is top notch, everything else on the truck is bottom of the barrel. Transmission has always leaked, even after three dealer "fixes", lots of electrical problems, dash split in four places.


my father has a 2002 f250 4x4 powerstroke 7.3 for sale with 200,000 miles gets 19 mpg great work truck lariet pkg extend cab one owner all hwy miles

$13500 C.D.kimbrell 256/232/0798


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## dback (Jan 8, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> dbeck,
> out of warranty I assume? I had some luck going to customer services. Talk to your Dealer and get the contact number. I told the person handling my call how many Fords I have owned and how I wouild buy another. That I had had this repair, the egr and oil cooler, done already, this was the second time. Even after being out of warranty 20,000 miles Ford and the dealership doing the repair took on 2/3s of the repair bill.
> 
> Try it. It couldn't hurt. All they can do is say No.


It is still under warranty. I've done everything you suggested including meeting with the owner of the dealership.....the case was 'elevated' in 'customer service' three times but they refused to send a second inspector out. My understanding is that once a first inspector makes a ruling.....it is never overturned. Now it's an insurance claim and let them fight with Ford.

I see that International was due to have the 4 x 4 option as of last fall.....have any of you seen or bought one? My problem with an International is that my drivers would need CDLs if I went that route. I've had 5 or 6 Dodges since 1998 and all served me very well.....maybe that's what I should use from now on. Sure are rough riding bastages though.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

dback said:


> Specifically 350 (8000 GVW) to 550 (19,700 GVW) range.


Ah Rats.... I would buy a m2 freightliner with low pro tires,a air bag dump valve with a cut out over tires. This truck will run about 3-400,000 miles.
Just my $.0


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## dback (Jan 8, 2012)

Yeah.......but then I'd have too hire a secretary to handle all the paperwork, inspections, CDLs........a whole nuther ball of worms.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Gregg said:


> Jim: is your Dodge a crew cab? Seems like the 204.5" wb (regular cab) is what I would get, with a 16' bed. Any advantages of a 16' bed over 14'?


No just a regular cab. yeah you can get the longer wheelbase if you feel having the extra two feet is worth what you lose in maneuverability.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

dback said:


> Yeah.......but then I'd have too hire a secretary to handle all the paperwork, inspections, CDLs........a whole nuther ball of worms.


Not really, the only thing different is you do have to have a cdl.


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

dback said:


> I see that International was due to have the 4 x 4 option as of last fall.....have any of you seen or bought one? My problem with an International is that my drivers would need CDLs if I went that route. I've had 5 or 6 Dodges since 1998 and all served me very well.....maybe that's what I should use from now on. Sure are rough riding bastages though.


I have a 2003 International 7400 4x4 . I like it allot ,pulls and carries a load nice. The fuel economy is almost the same as my 550 .They ride rough when empty but with a load of bees its pretty smooth.


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## dback (Jan 8, 2012)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ah Rats.... I would buy a m2 freightliner with low pro tires,a air bag dump valve with a cut out over tires. This truck will run about 3-400,000 miles.
> Just my $.0


I went down today and looked at your suggestion. Salesman had me look at a 26,000 GVW m2.......says I wouldn't need a cdl. Is that true???

Does anyone have any experience with the Maxxforce 7 engine in the smaller International?

Dang Trevor.....that's a big dude........


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## cdb 1212 (Jun 14, 2012)

says I wouldn't need a cdl. Is that true???

U.S. DOt states 26000cgvw or less no cdl required your state may or may not require cdl and/or commercial registration.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

A 26,000 GVW vehicle without a trailer does not require an Arizona CDL _*if *_it is *not *hauling haz-mat or more than 16 passengers. If a trailer is involved, it gets more complicated. Here are some answers from Arizona DOT:
http://www.azdot.gov/mvd/faqs/scripts/FAQsResponse.asp?Category=4&Keyword


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

All trucks are 26,000 gvw and less, that way all our drivers only need regular class C license.

The flatbeds that tow trailers are 26 gvw truck but are register for 35,000 gvw with CA dmv, 32,000 in Idaho, for the purpose of having total gvw of total combined max weight. As long as trailer are under 10,000 lbs they can operate with class C license.

Kieth , I like that idea of the M2 low profile, just aquired a 99 int. low profile truck with 16' bed.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

DBack, as far as trailers are , you can get a SE plate (farm) or pull with no plate at all in Calif. The trailer is exempt from the truck, But if you pull a regular trailer with regular plates then that's a horse of a different color. good luck


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/benelli90p7/IMG_0385-1.jpg


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Trevor Mansell said:


> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/benelli90p7/IMG_0385-1.jpg


Nice Rig. So envious of the Swinger on the back.:thumbsup:


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## dback (Jan 8, 2012)

Pretty ragged setup you've got there Trevor......I'll fly to Florida and take it off your hands for 5-6k as she sets  CASH of course!!!!

Looked at the International Terra Star today. The 4x4 option will be available in Jan. and you can order in Oct. I've been reading on the (newer 300 HP, 660 Torq) MaxxForce 7 engine until my eyes are bleeding. The best information seems to be on the 'School bus' and 'RV' forums. The 4x2 only has a 19,500 GVW but the 4x4 option will have a 23,000+ GVW. Some of you may wonder why I'd be looking at shorter wheel base. All agriculture here is irrigated with 'head' and 'tail' water concrete ditches......can be very difficult to navigate around.


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## Sadler91 (Nov 6, 2011)

Well we have a 2004 F550. Nothing but trouble with that truck. 6 injectors, oil cooler, both heads. All that was under warranty. Then at 140k she blew. $14k later we have a reman 6.0l motor and it has been fine. Not a single problem. Ford gave us a two year unlimited mile warranty on the motor. My buddy just bought a new 6.7L and he hasnt had a single problem in 30K, *crosses fingers*. I think whatever you buy just make sure to get the extended warranty

I myself have an '01 Dodge 3500 5.9 cummins. Great engine but everything else is just flat out pathetic. The suspension, front end, interior, and brakes are all just junk. I have had a dodge pickup in the past and the same problems haunted me. Never again will I buy another Dodge.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

With all due DISrespect, get the CDL, and drive a REAL truck, with a straight six, no synchros, and air brakes; not a glorified pickup. 

The reliability of a real truck is alot higher. 

Watch out for the newer engines. Avoid EGR(read International) . Be prepared to deal with Diesel exhaust fluid(urea), and engine derating(to 20% power?) when you run out.

Crazy Roland


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## dback (Jan 8, 2012)

Roland,
I was shocked to see that International was sticking to the EGR until 2014. We deal with the SCR now so that's not my major concern. My concerns with going to the larger trucks have always been dealing with port/DOT, lack of 4x4 and maneuverability. That being said...I'm starting to believe you are correct.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Roland said:


> With all due DISrespect, get the CDL, and drive a REAL truck, with a straight six, no synchros, and air brakes; not a glorified pickup. The reliability of a real truck is alot higher.


Well said Roland, we run three thousand hives and have never moved bees with a 350-450 or 550. I have one (1) fl-70 freightliner (5.9L motor)with a 25 ft bed, I spent a whooping $9,500 for the ole gal. I don't get it here, spend 50K and make sure you get a extended waranty?????? 
said e-nuff going back under the bus  good luck to all


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Well I'm sure not going to try to make the case that smaller trucks can do what bigger trucks do. I would like to point out, though, that the complaints cited by many here involve the technology put under the hood and not the size of the truck. I bought a used IH, up fitted it with a 20' bed and use the heck out of it when doing certain jobs. But 90% of the time we walk right past it to jump in the ole 450 (the ole 7.3's are bullet proof) or the Dodge 5500. The IH gets about 8 to 9 mpg, the smaller trucks about 12. Never had an issue with either one of them and an 8 to 10,000 pound carrying capacity ain't exactly chicken feed. Bottom line is use what is most efficient for your operation. If you need to haul a lot of kids then by all means get yourself a "bigger bus".


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Well said Jim.

I only run 800+ hives and only do honey production. I work out of a 1/2 ton stock pickup and always have. Pulled over 70 ton of honey this year. Find the truck that works for you. The guys keep trying to talk me into a 1 ton, but I like the way the 1/2 ton works for me.:thumbsup:


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> Bottom line is use what is most efficient for your operation.


What a novel idea.... Who thought of that... Oh Jimmy did


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

My Isuzu cost me 7k. It moves 40 hives single stack. I have a boom on it going to do the swinger thing next season. It is great short turning radius and 17mhp diesel. 16 ft bed.

Going to add stake sides so I can use it for other things also. It is sure nice to be able to go to HD and pick up 4 pallets of block. Last time I was there I said I will take 4, he said 4 blocks, I said 4 pallets, And you want those delivered, I said no just load them on my truck. He had to go to the parking lot to see if my truck would handle it. I guess they get lots of people that think they can just put 500 blocks in the trunk of the Precis. 

Anyway I like having that truck and my pickup for smaller jobs. Don't know why I did not get it years ago. It is kind of nice having a truck in the driveway. It doubles as a work bench half the time also. And it is a movable workbench.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Mr. Lyon is correct. Pick the right tool for the job. We are much like Ron, do not migrate, and have a 1977 Grumman(1 ton) to work the bees. It is more than adequate for that task. 

I see the problems arising when the small trucks are expected to perform with the dependability of a big truck. The big trucks have had most of the bugs worked out, except those injected by the new emission laws. Parts, such as transmissions, engines, drive train, and suspension, are often shared among different brands, which helps to keep the parts costs down. 

As a side note, my son and I also maintain 10 dump trucks for his mother's side of the family, mostly Macks, which haul 45,000 lbs of stone per load. 

Crazy Roland


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Smoke 'em while you got 'em!
But for heaven's sake, NOT at 12 mph!!!


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