# Poachers



## Timothy (Jul 24, 2006)

Hey i have a small operation 100-150 hives , we have had a big increase in beekeepers in where i live due some individuals thinking everyone needs to have a hive in their backyard. So here is the question i have recently found some swarm traps on the outskirts of my yards within 500' or so of my hives ,really pissed me off other people specifically targeting my yards, am i just in these feelings. Thanks


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I guess I would just be amused by it and reason that if I did lose a swarm I would prefer that it go into someone's trap instead of getting a frantic call that it is in someone's mailbox. Would I be correct in assuming that it would bother you far less if they had just mentioned something to you before doing it?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

It looks like a little extra incentive for aggressive swarm management on your part. That way….they’ll move on to greener pastures.
I know a fellow who makes several thousand nucs each spring. A number of them swarm before they get sold. His crew just doesn’t have enough time to chase the swarms. There is another, smaller beekeeper who patrols the area and collects many of those swarms. The nuc producer and the swarm collector seem to have a good relationship. No resentment nor any guilt that I can see.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

If they were on my land or land that I had control of, it would bother me. It would be the trespassing thing that would bother me. If I had traps out, the traps would bother me. If they were on somebody else's land I would talk to the landowner to see if they had his or her permission to set the traps.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I say you are not justified in that swarms are just as much anyone's as they are yours. place your own traps or manage the bees so they do not swarm. that is your best recourse. You have the upper hand in that you can make artificial swarms when you see it is necessary. all the others can do is hope you mess up. If you do those where lost bees to you anyway. at best someone else gets them and starts a hive out of them. IF you have traps in place you have just as much chance of capturing your own swarms as they do. but a swarm is an unowned item.
I understand that you don't like it, that dos not make it wrong. and placing traps has nothing to do with weather your hives swarm. Your management of them does. You have the opportunity to make their efforts fruitless.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Soak two Q-tips, one in bee-go the other in lemon grass.Put your trap right next to his with a sign " may the best man win".


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## Timothy (Jul 24, 2006)

Thanks i do swarm management which has been very successful this year so far, that is not the issue for me it is more about the trespassing on land i either lease or have the farmers permission to use, i quess if they just contacted me and not be so sneaky about it wouldn`t bother me as much but patrolling my yards without permission bothers me. So when do they become public property when they fly over my bee yard boundary line? Seems to me when my beagle runs away and they slap me with a fine he is still mine.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

...don't get confused on which Q-tip goes in which trap, though. The simple thing would be to just tell your bees to stay home. 

If the people that these traps belong to are trapping without the property owners permission or they are trapping otherwise illegally(?) I guess you could term it poaching, it would probably definitely be trespassing. If there are lots of these traps and you can spot them easily then the property owner probably can spot them easily, too, so I would think that permission has been given to put them there. 

Once a swarm leaves your hive they are free-agent bees and will go wherever they want to go. If you are able to catch and hive them while still on your property then good for you. If they land on a limb on your neighbor's property and you proceed to capture them by stepping a foot onto his/her property without permission then you have just become a trespasser and...poacher. 

I can see where you might feel like you're being targeted but don't get too balled up about it, there are worse things that can happen. I would talk with my neighbor and see if something can be worked out regarding the traps. If the traps belong to the neighbor or friends of the neighbor then you will need to accept it, hone your skills on swarm management, and go on to something constructive. 

Talk to them.

Best wishes,
Ed


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

High 5 Keith.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

If you lease or have permission and they don't then just remove their traps. If they are outside the lease or permission area then don't fret over it.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> manage the bees so they do not swarm.


Thanks.I needed a good laugh this morning.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Timothy....I type too slow.  

I can understand you getting hacked off about the traps, I won't say I wouldn't get a little peeved about it myself. But, what's getting hacked off going to solve? Talk to the folks that own the land. Let them know your feelings about this...they may think the traps are not an issue but realize that they are once they talk with you. Do you think the property owners have given permission to the folks that put up these traps?

As for ownership of the bees... I don't know if we ever really own bees. We possess them and keep them but I don't know about the ownership thing. But, in regards to your apiary I would think any bees within the perimeter of your apiary as stated in your lease would be your legal possession. Outside of that perimeter would go back to "public domain" I would guess, but anybody attempting to capture a swarm outside the apiary would still need permission from the landowner or they would be breaking the law by trespassing. 

My guess is that you have no stated perimeters in your lease agreement or you may not even have a written lease. I understand this. I live in a rural area where a man's word or handshake was once a solid contract. People have changed over time and seldom do you find a handshake or a man's word a solid contract anymore. We've leased our hay fields for the last upteen years...all on a handshake. It's worked good so far, but we know the folks (there's been different ones) pretty good. I'm afraid a handshake and a man's word is becoming a thing of the past, though. 

If the folks with the traps take them down, what happens to swarms that land in trees 500' from your hives? We know a trap won't entice a hive to swarm...that they're only good for luring a swarm that has already left it's mother hive. Thus, it's really only an issue of what happens with the bees once they have swarmed. Have you got traps placed around your apiary? If a swarm or two gets pass your traps would it be a good thing for them to hive themselves in one of these foreign traps? In other words, better to go in *somebody's* trap rather than in Mrs. Jones' attic? Or maybe better to go in a trap than to die hanging on a limb for lack of a natural cavity? Just some thoughts.

It'll work out. 

Ed


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

If they have permission and are not trespassing give them your phone # and location of your other yards. Tell them you will split all the swarms they catch with them. An extra set of eyes on your yards couldn't hurt. If your not trapping swarms... What do you have to lose?

How much open fed HFCS do you think it take to get the whole yard to swarm? A lot huh?


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## Timothy (Jul 24, 2006)

Thanks i appreciate the responses , i am just a small one man operation trying to keep my head above water working my ass off trying to make a few bucks at beekeeping, never ending lessons to be learned. Thanks again


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Roger that, Timothy. I hope it works out for you. Sounds like you've got it going pretty good. That's a lot of hives for a one man operation. How long you been keeping bees?

Ed


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

It would be worse if he moved 50 hives in on you. You see yourself as the 'poor'. The guy setting the traps sees you as the rich guy with all those bees and they are free if they swarm. Have a talk with him. I bet he didn't do it to tick you off specifically.


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## buzz abbott (Mar 6, 2012)

If the traps are not on property that you own or control, then get over it. If they are on property you own or control, collect the traps and leave a note explaining that the person is trespassing. You could give them back if they contacted you and you felt magnanimous, or sell them back as a nuc, or tell them they will be charged with trespass and keep them for your own use or any other number of ways to go.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Now a mean sadistic devil would find some africanized bees that like to swarm. That might change his thinking.....


Crazy AND Sadistic Roland


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

If it's your land, land you leased, or land you have permission to be one then who's to say you didn't forget your swarm traps?  Or oopsy you tripped and crushed one.


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## toad (Jun 18, 2009)

I think that Keith and Roland have the best ideas! If you two can't make as beekeepers ya sure can as comedians!!!!


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Timothy,

I'd be upset if I were you. Seriously, I'd spray with Beegone and just leave them where they sit.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

.......however if you end up with a drone layer in one of your hives and a few old bees to go with her


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> .......however if you end up with a drone layer in one of your hives and a few old bees to go with her


Even better!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Charlie B said:


> I'd be upset if I were you. Seriously, I'd spray with Beegone and just leave them where they sit.


Luckily for me Charlie doesn't know the addresses of where I have traps set up around his sites.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Where do you think I place all my wax moth frames!


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

A friend and I had 10 hives on a lot that he owns. In years past a commercial had set 100+ hives about 10 miles down the road. I checked with a few people that lived in the neighborhood and no one knew of hives being in the general area of my 10 hives, they where only aware of the hives 10 miles down the road. A very short time after I placed them the Commercial guy dropped well over 100 hives a little under a mile from mine. No big deal, I moved mine but left a couple empty boxes with some old comb there.
I would be just heart broke to learn that he somehow vandalized my equipment. I think I'm playing fair and being reasonable. Always two sides to a story.

No swarms have moved into my boxes and I probably don't want to mix my fine stock with that trashy commercial stuff anyways!! Kidding.....it's a joke!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Wouldn't bother me to see swarm traps near my hives. I practise swarm control but if I do lose a swarm it's 99 out of 100 I'll never see it again anyway, swarm traps or not.

I've heard of swarm traps being patroled by other beekeepers, and the swarms removed from them and put in the other beekeepers hives.


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

It's an interesting thought this thread and I see both sides of the coin I guess. If a calf wanders on to the neighbours property is it his? If your canola seed blows on to my property is it mine (or Monsantos)? 

Now I don't really want to go around and put a tag on each and every bee, but they are livestock and therefore the property of the person that purchased them including any offspring produced. 

This is coming from a guy that had to take part of the day off to take a pile of bees out of his neighbours apple tree today.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I wouldn't care. Bees are legally wild animals. If a horse gets out, it's still yours. If bees swarm, they're only yours as long as you're the first one to retrieve them or in certain places, as long as you keep them within sight.

Now if somebody is trespassing, I'd say it's time for some targeted vandalism. What that looks like is up to you.


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## feltze (May 15, 2010)

I'm with Dan Y, Don't get bent. Practice good swam control, if a swarm wanders off consider it lost, wether it hits someone elses box, a home or a hollow tree. It would have been a loss anyway. 

The thought of messing with someones stuff with bee gone or anything else.... just make my blood boil! How would you like someone spraying your hive with raid? Hey they are stining insects arent they? Hence a threat? One of the kids could have had an anaphalictic (sp) responce and ended up in the hospital... (JUSTIFIED????) No.

Practice good swarm control, Meet your neighbors and develop a GOOD relationship with your fellow beekeepers! 

I don't agree with Doc on the livestock sililoquy in that The colony is in itself the property of the owner, as are those additional colonies eht beekeeper places out. But the beekeeper never has the control over his livestock as a cattle herder does.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

Bees are insects not livestock and they are yours as long as they stay in your box, once out of the box they are no longer yours. The bees did not belong to the neighbours only because they did not want to become beekeepers.


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

rtoney said:


> Bees are insects not livestock and they are yours as long as they stay in your box, once out of the box they are no longer yours. The bees did not belong to the neighbours only because they did not want to become beekeepers.


Sorry I failed to mention that I use his yard as a bee yard as well. That statement was not meant to be a statement of posession but of poor swarm management.

If bees are not livestock then beekeepers are not considered farmers I guess?

Personally if I lose a swarm it's no big deal where they end up (other than mailboxes etc.), if they wish to go feral so be it. If another beek catches them so be it. I lose them anyway.

Bees are only "legally wild animals" as long the law says so. The targeted vandalism thing sort of goes against the statement of "legally wild animals". Should he not call the police in that situation rather than some sort of vigilante justice? Maybe a good lynching is in order?

Point being there is no need for someone to be setting swarm traps right around his bee yard hoping to profit from his misfortune. Legally maybe acceptable, morally not so.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

Technically or historiclly it's livestock & ranching not farming a farmer grows from the ground. So as not to start a whole other debate livestock is something that can be controled or in the case of open range ranching can be branded or marked for identification. I would look at beekeeping more on the ranching side no matter how the government would label it & just because of the nature of the beast (insects), no they are not livestock to be branded or marked for identification upon leaving the hive.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

doc25 said:


> Point being there is no need for someone to be setting swarm traps right around his bee yard hoping to profit from his misfortune. Legally maybe acceptable, morally not so.


In my case,I keep a few empty hives around my bee yard.If someone else sets traps near my hives then there is the big possibility that the other persons traps may draw a swarm that would have gone into one of my empties.So,if I spot the traps,well......
Now,I haven't tried this yet but consider what one of those cans of expanding foam would do to a swarm trap.It would actually be doing a service for the trapper in that it would keep out mice and wasps.
Seriously,there are plenty of places to put traps rather than close to someones bee yard.


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

Moved


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Soak two Q-tips, one in bee-go the other in lemon grass.Put your trap right next to his with a sign " may the best man win".


 rofl!!!!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A swarm trap will not incite bees to swarm. If you're there to catch them, they are just as likely to stay where you put them. If you're not there to catch your swarms, they are fair game...


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I have an old beekeeper that rides around some of my yards during swarm season looking for swarms to catch that have moved away from my yards. He always tells me if he finds one. Some years he complains that they did not swarm. Well, duh, we nuc and split the devil out of them. So I am like Jim lyons, I would rather see them in the old guys box than in a hollow tree or house wall space somewheres. TED


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## wannabeefarms (Apr 17, 2012)

In Ontario Bee laws and regulations if you are actively chasing a swarm they are considerably your property and you have the right to enter another person's property to retrieve them. As soon as you stop chasing them, someone can chase them and assume ownership. If they enter someone else's equipment you no longer have legal claim to them. That is my understanding of the law anyways, though the law doesn't always make good neighbour's


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## Gord (Feb 8, 2011)

Really ??
Get over it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I'm not reading wannabeefarms post as anything other than a statement of Ontario law odd though it might be.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

To the best of my knowledge, Wannabee's statements are an accurate reflection of common law, that may or may not have been codified. For example, I own a bee tree in the State forest, due to the fact that my initial's are on it. If it was in my county, which rescinded the common law, it would not be mine.

P.S. You should have seen the look on the State Forester's face when I explained the law. He could not find anything to say it was NOT my tree. 

Crazy Roland


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

Roland said:


> To the best of my knowledge, Wannabee's statements are an accurate reflection of common law, that may or may not have been codified. For example, I own a bee tree in the State forest, due to the fact that my initial's are on it. If it was in my county, which rescinded the common law, it would not be mine.
> 
> P.S. You should have seen the look on the State Forester's face when I explained the law. He could not find anything to say it was NOT my tree.
> 
> Crazy Roland


I have read similar statements. If your initials are in the bee tree then the bees belong to you.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

In today's time, could an environmental group, person, etc., file charges of vandalism against people who claim they own a bee tree because their initials are on it...they may not argue about the person's ownership of the bees but claim the beek is admitting to defacing/vandalizing the tree? Just thinking "outside the tree" with a "what if" scenario. 

Btw Roland...interesting law, thanks for sharing.

Ed


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## feltze (May 15, 2010)

wannabeefarms said:


> In Ontario Bee laws and regulations if you are actively chasing a swarm they are considerably your property and you have the right to enter another person's property to retrieve them. As soon as you stop chasing them, someone can chase them and assume ownership. If they enter someone else's equipment you no longer have legal claim to them.


Actually that seems very reasonable IMO, I would feel that way about someone catching one of my swarms or me of theirs.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

wannabeefarms said:


> In Ontario Bee laws and regulations .... you have the right to enter another person's property to retrieve them.


If you chase your swarm onto George Zimmerman's property without permission you might regret it. I think I would get permission before chasing my swarm onto other's property.
Actually, I just let the swarm hang there so I keep it a secret I am keeping bees.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>If they enter someone else's equipment you no longer have legal claim to them

Good, now I don't feel bad about all the bait swarms I catch. Catchers Bee Keepers Losers Bee Weepers. I need a bumper sticker like that.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

odfrank said:


> If you chase your swarm onto George Zimmerman's property without permission you might regret it. I think I would get permission.


There is a big difference between trespassing and attacking someone!.....unless you're a liberal.....then guns are bad....OKay....lol


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Dbl post


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

so if I go after my pigs on someones land, and they coral them, they get to keep them? Not likely. Real livestock precedence could easily outweigh this in court. Presuming you can prove something is yours. That aside. This is kind of a dumb thread. If you have neighbors harassing your op, have a talk with them.


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