# How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?



## David LaFerney

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

What do you take issue with? I pretty much agree with him, except for one thing - clearly you are already committed to using a top bar hive. I don't really see any reason for you to change gears at this point. Just consider the almost univeral advice to start with at least two hives - and also consider building a nuc or two as well. Build everything so that the parts will swap of course. 

I will say this - my top bar hive is just as likely to sting me as any other hive. Maybe I'm to poor of a bee keeper to tell the difference.

BTW - nice job on the hive, and the blog.


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## PatBeek

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

.

Thanks, David.

I don't know. I kind of felt his whole tone was rather condescending and a back-handed attempt to belittle me and top bar hives in general.

Don't get me wrong, much of what he said was spot-on. But I could sense some knife-twisting as well.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just being paranoid.

.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

Tone and motive are hard to tell in text messages, unlike in person communication where body language and vocal inflection tell you more. So, yeah, maybe you are taking offense when none was intended. But, also, maybe you are correct in your interpretation. 

Which way of looking at it makes you happiest? I'd go w/ assuming good intent on behalf of the replier. It's better for you.


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## Ramona

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

You're lucky to have such a well informed, articulate writer posting on your blog. He obviously spent a great deal of time and energy communicating many very important points. Any new (or not so new) beekeeper would be well served by reading his comments more than once as well as printing out a copy for future reference. 

"Swaying people your way in the top bar method and philosophy" shouldn't be difficult when you are able to demonstrate your own success.

Ramona


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## PatBeek

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

.

I appreciate the input.

I'm not using a smoker, however...lol

But I took a lot of what he had to say to heart. 

And yes, I appreciate his input very much.


.


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## Hawkster

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

let us know how the no smoker thing goes, sometimes they are indispensable. i did notice your quote mentioned the bees need for love and the distress the caged queen was in because she wasn't getting any. that is a different way of thinking about bees! I hope it all works out for you


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## Daniel Y

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

I woudl say you have to look at yourself for what you saw in his post. I read the entire thing and didn't see a thing wrong with it.
Top Bars are not a cure all. They may not be the best start for a new keeper, and they do have issues of their own. They are still an artificial environment to keep bees in and I don't get even the suggestion that they will cause bees to be calmer. That one just seems a bit suspicious as far as a claim would go. Maybe there is an advantage that a newb would not be ticking the bees off as much by fumbling around.
So I could just repeat what Mark B said above.
And yes Mark, We do agree far more than you might think. Including that I may very well just be another newb hell bent on destruction. I realize that. But I'm enjoying the view while it still looks rosy. Check back in a year, after I've ticked off a few hives. Most likely setting right here with my bees dead. Well see if those glasses have gotten slapped off my face by then.


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## Beev

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

I agree with sqkcrk about tone and motive in text. The English language is so complicated that tone and inflection can drastically change the meaning of the same words.

Having said that, I interpreted his post as just trying to be helpful. As you probably already know, there are lots of different ways to keep bees, and experienced beeks have found what works for them in their area of the country, and base their advice on that experience. My advise would be to read everything you can, keep an open mind, don't rule anything out, and see what works for you. 

I wish you the best of luck. 

Beev


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## PatBeek

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

.

The gentleman made a point in his posts about how I should have a 2nd top bar hive on hand in case the growth of the population out-paces the size of the hive.

If this were to happen, how do you go about splitting them up or transferring them to another top bar hive?

What about the queen(s)?

Is it a matter of taking brood top bars and honey/pollen out of the original hive and placing them in the new hive and introduce a brand new purchased queen?

Is it also in reference to catching the swarm when they come out into a nearby tree or structure?

Thanks.


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## RE JOnes

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

Patbeek, I'm over in Valrico, about 20 miles west of you. I also have a TBH.
He does have some valid points and I do not think he was trying to down the TBH. They are different than a lang, but still the same.
I have built a small TBH like you have and now have a four footer. The small one will grow quicker than you think it will. Build another one just like it, transfer some of the top bars with brood and honey from the full one and install it in the new one. Let the new hive raise their own queen if you like.
If you like, I could e-mail you a phone number if you have any questions or you are welcome to come and check my TBH out.
I have found that most people with langs are set with them and they have no desire to fool with a TBH. At this time I have both.
Robert


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## PatBeek

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

RE Jones,

Thanks so much for the info and contact info. Yes, you are right next door to me, almost.

Regarding allowing the new hive to raise their own queen, does that mean I would have to make sure I transferred top bars that included supercedures?


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## RE JOnes

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

Yes, you would need to transfer a queen cell to the new hive. 
They will not try to swarm untill they get too crowded or honey bound, that is when this usually happens.
I found that the small hive I built, would be good for a small swarm for a time. I built the big one and installed a swarm last October and in three weeks they had built comb on 10 bars. They are now on bar 20. I still have plenty of room for them, but I also have a small TBH nuc that I built just in case.
Robert


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## gone2seed

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

I agree with what has been posted above but would like to add that the hive in your picture is far too small.The bees will outgrow it quickly.I would suggest one at least twice as long.


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## SteveBee

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

I have to say I also agree with his post. I have top bar hives and Langs and enjoy both. I started with TBHs, but mine are four feet long. Go for it, but build your next ones longer.


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## Delta Bay

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*



PatBeek said:


> .
> 
> The gentleman made a point in his posts about how I should have a 2nd top bar hive on hand in case the growth of the population out-paces the size of the hive.
> 
> If this were to happen, how do you go about splitting them up or transferring them to another top bar hive?
> 
> What about the queen(s)?
> 
> Is it a matter of taking brood top bars and honey/pollen out of the original hive and placing them in the new hive and introduce a brand new purchased queen?
> 
> Is it also in reference to catching the swarm when they come out into a nearby tree or structure?
> 
> Thanks.


There are many Lang management techniques that can be applied to the TBH like making splits swarm control etc... Reading up on these will help with options that will work for you. A split can be as simple as removing the queen and a few brood combs of bees placing them in another hive several feet from the original hive. The original hive is likely to raise a new queen. Timing is also important.

You can look at the smoker as a way to give the bees a heads up (or down depending on your view) just as you do with young children when you give the "we are leaving the park in five minutes" instead of just taking them out without warning and them fighting it. Just lighting the smoker in the yard many times is all that is needed.

In my view the number one objective concerning the TBH is to have the bees build their combs following the guides so that you can work the hive. Everything else is a matter of learning how/what you need to know and will/can be learnt over time. Without the hive being workable you won't be able to apply much of any strategy. A main issue I see with TBH's is the lack of understanding how natural comb differs from foundation combs. Once you've got a handle on this everything else will fall into place as you learn about your bees. 

Stick with your plan but also be open to make changes so that you and the bees are working together.


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## bluegrass

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

I also though that the post was well thought out and written. My advice is that you don't drawl conclusions or condemn something you haven't experienced... That is a fast way to failure... If you already have your mind made up about something and are unwilling to resort to it if necessary, you will surely fail.

I can comment on eating bees: They taste bad and have stingers ... However, bee brood is quite tasty, drone brood is the best, providing you don't mind cleaning a few mites off sometimes.... They taste like honey coated almond only no crunch.

Given the "naturalistic" tendency you seem to be leaning towards; you should consider 1 more point. Honey bees are terrible for the environment. They are great from an agriculture point of view, but they are detrimental to the natural environment. They displace natural pollinators, they compete with them for food, and they are not suited well for pollination of many native plants. It is unknown how many species of natural pollinators and native plants have gone extinct since the introduction of the honey bee, but many naturalists estimate it in the 100s.. If environmental protection is your goal you should consider bubble bees or mason bees.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

Air filled or helium? heh, heh.  Good advice bluegrass.


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## Adam Foster Collins

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

I read the person's comments on your blog and found them to be solid, and I didn't see them as condescending. I also believe that hive is too small. I have two 4 footers here, and I wouldn't go any smaller. I have seen a lot of criticism aimed at tbh's which was ill-informed, but the post you're talking about is not. Looks like thoughtful input.

I get the sense that most people who decide a smoker doesn't work, or who decide they've found something "better" than smoke, or find that smoke just angers their bees, are also people who never used it for long enough to know what they were doing. From what I can tell, for most beginners, just lighting one and keeping one lit is too much work to want to bother with. I've been trying to stick with it and learn how best to use it, and slowly I have begun to see it as an art to be mastered. 

I taught university for a number of years. I noticed that there is often a tendency among students to try to "learn" faster, by convincing themselves that a lot of what they don't know or understand is not worth knowing or understanding. I see a lot of people doing that with smoke.

I'm just a beginner myself. I think a lot. I have a lot of opinions, and I have a certain amount of experience. But I don't "know" much of anything for sure about bees...

...other than the fact that they really fascinate me, and I want to learn more. You've built a beautiful hive. Take in more information and enjoy planning and building the next one. You can always use more of them...

Adam


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## bluegrass

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*



sqkcrk said:


> Air filled or helium? heh, heh.  Good advice bluegrass.


Hope it doesn't sound condescending? I am trying to be helpful. I may preach against various practices in apiculture, but if it comes down to loosing the hive or treating/feeding, or whatever... I do what ever I need to to save the hive. 

And going honey hunting without smoke can be insanity.... it is so simple even the cave men knew to do it. And I have tried just using sugar water or water and lemongrass oil. ( I didn't have dry fuel for the smoker) 

I have also used TBH and they like smoke too.


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## Grant

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

I read through the post as I am a one TBH beekeeper with 150 Langs. The TBH has been nothing but frustration, but I cannot say I have the experience to make it work...yet. I have no plans of converting, but I thought I should be open enough to give it a try and report my findings. I found out I haven't learned how to make it work...yet.

I didn't think the post was condescending, just sharing an opinion...kind of like 99% of the other stuff that floats around here on beesource.

All the best,

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Oldtimer

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

Hi Pat,

Looking at the pics of your hive, i think it is inevitable that if the bees perform normally, they will outgrow the hive. You then either split it, or it swarms.

At it's most basic, a hive split can be done by moving the hive a few yards away and putting a new empty one on the old location. Then take at least one comb with eggs in it from the moved hive and put it into the new hive. Brush the bees off to ensure you left the queen behind. Enough bees will return to the old location to get the hive going again, and turn one of those eggs into a new queen, which will take around a month.

There are numerous ways to split a hive and some other ways are more reliable, but the above way is probably one of the most simple.

The lack of expansion potential is one of the biggest drawbaks of top bar hives. Some folks get around this by designing a top bar hive that can have another box added on top, for the bees to expand into and store honey in, on a seasonal basis. This does present some design challenges, and requires that some of the top bars are modified to allow the bees to move up between them. It also removes some of the simplicity of the top bar design. But it will allow the bees more room if they need it, and greatly enhance their ability to provide you with a good honey surplus.


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## PatBeek

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

All of these replies are filled with incredible wisdom and patience.

I am very humbled by the willingness to help each other and I also apologize for my initial paranoia which kicked off this thread. 

Muchas gracias.


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## Michael Bush

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

I tend to agree with those who think he's just trying to be helpful. I am also just trying to be helpful. Here's my response.

>CCD is a big problem, but the facts are that no one knows exactly what is causing bees to abscond from their hive. It could be treatments, it could be systemic pesticides, environmental changes, mono-cropping or any other stresses or a mixture of all. Treatment free or top-bar hives aren't the cure-all to CCD that anyone has found out, yet.

True.

>I saw someone mention that a smoker isn't needed in a top bar hive...

The idea of not smoking being better is a mystery to me. Not upsetting the bees with a defensive reaction is less disruptive than setting off a defensive reaction. I would light a smoker. I open a lot of hives without smoke because I need to catch a queen, and not because I think it's better. They still eat honey at the same rate. I don't believe it sets off them eating honey to smoke them. Nor does it make them think their "house is on fire". It just covers the alarm pheromones.

>Gathering your own "unmedicated" swarms: No one can say you're getting an unmedicated, organic line of bees in a wild-caught swarm. This is impossible. 

The small bees are almost always wild ones... unless you have a small cell beekeeper nearby...

>I saw the top bar hive you're building and estimate it's probably 2.5 to 3' long.

IMO way too small... make a longer one with the same shape for a hive and use that one for a nuc and to collect swarms... You can swap from the smaller to the longer one when they have the smaller one 80% full...

> If you're going to get into beekeeping, I'd have at least 2 hives to start off with 

Definitely. 2 1/2 is even better. Two hives and a nuc gives you some resources.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm

>and those would be Langstroth. 

I would say they should be interchangeable, they don't have to be Langstroths to be interchangeable.

> The reason is; a 3' top bar hive is going to be filled to capacity within a couple of months...

Yes, a 3' top bar hive is probably going to swarm... several times a year...

> With a TBH you're stuck with what you have. 

Pretty much.

>You can't expand the hive body to give them more room like you can with a traditional Langstroth hive.

Which is why you need to manage the space well. But you need space in order to manage space...

> I'd also recommend starting with a traditional Langstroth hive as a beginner hive because Langstroth hives are all built with standards that make the frames and boxes easily interchangeable between hives or between boxes of the same hive. 

Interchangeability is nice. But if you have several top bar hives with the same width and shape you can interchange them as well.

> bees are much more likely to build a complete mess of comb in a TBH than a Langstroth hive.

I've seen plenty of messed up comb in a Langstroth... but one bad comb leads to another and with no foundation between the frames you may have more messed up comb if you are not on top of things.

> Also, you're going to want to put a door covering the glass of the window. Bees prefer total dark.

And the window will make a great solar wax melter... not good.

> It's a good idea to have an Epi-Pen around just in case. 

I saw a picture of one once... 

> You can find some "hive placement" ideas online.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#locating

>Propolis is a mixture of tree resin that bees use to seal things up. It also has disinfectant properties that help the hive's microflora/fauna ecosystem. This isn't something you probably want to eat

I eat it often enough... mostly I chew it...

-------------------------------------------------

>Everyone has a different vision and experiences regarding beekeeping.

Certainly.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesphilosophy.htm

>Just today I passed a huge row of Langstroths on Combee Rd. and noticed they all had the sugar feeders on top for the winter. It reminded me of the whole reason I'm going the less-invasive, less-taxing top bar method.

I don't see Langstroths as any less natural or any less invasive... feeding has nothing to do with the box they are in. It has to do with how good of year it was, if they are light going into winter or if you take too much of their honey. You do yourself and your bees no favors letting them starve.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm

> The bees are supposed to have their honey stores completely raped so they'll have to be fed sugar water over the winter.

That is only one cause of needing to feed. A failed fall flow, a drought, a bad year are other reasons.

> They aren't supposed to be put in chemically-laden wax frames with cells that are actually too big.

Agreed.

> They aren't supposed to have gaping holes opened up to disturb their internal body temperature too drastically.

I don't think the temperature of a brood nest changes much with opening a hive. If anything it goes up a bit from the disturbance and then levels out quickly. But then there is no reason to be getting in the hive constantly anyway once the comb is drawn, especially in a Langstroth. You will have to get in the TBH more often.

>Don't get me wrong, I know Langstroths can be done in a more natural way, but the overall design lends itself to being one of 'The Goose That Laid The Golden Egg' vision of keeping bees rather than allowing them to do things their own way.

Actually I don't think the design is, nor was intended to be, anything but a way to use what the bees do naturally. The way a Langstroth is run today with foundation and all, may be unnatural, but the original Langstroth was foundationless and L.L. Langstroth was very into what the bees naturally do. Rather than fight what the bees do, he decided to figure out what space they would leave so he could have frames that wouldn't be attached. There is no reason you cannot have all the advantages of a top bar hive, other than not lifting boxes and being cheap and easy to build, in a Langstroth.

I've added quite a bit to the TBH page based on recent discussions and the recent article in ABJ.

It is here:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm
-------------------------------------------------
But I will post it here:

Why a top bar hive? Why not a top bar hive?

It seems a lot of people get into top bar hives with a lot of misconceptions. They seem to think that a top bar hive is “natural” and there is no other way to have a natural hive of bees. I’m not exactly sure where this comes from, but I suppose par t of it is that a typical top bar hive has natural comb and a typical Langstroth hive has foundation. But I have seen top bar hives done with foundation, and I have thousands of foundationless frames in Langstroth hives. So if your only reason for going with a top bar hive is to get natural comb, you have other alternatives.

Another is the belief that the shape is more natural. I’d have to say any shape is natural. I’ve seen bees in soffits, gas tanks, walls of houses, floors of houses… bees aren’t particular about the shape. I see nothing more or less natural about a top bar hive.

Another is that you want a horizontal hive. But you can build a horizontal Langstroth hive. I have a few and they do just as well as the top bar hives.

I think the real reason for a top bar hive is that you can build it from scraps for next to nothing AND you get the above benefits, to wit: natural comb, (with both natural cell size and clean chemical free wax) no boxes to lift (horizontal). If you want all of these in one combination, then a top bar hive is for you.
Reasons you might not want a top bar hive.

A top bar hive, because it has a limited and fairly constant space, requires more frequent interventions to manage it well. This is not a problem when it’s in your back yard and you can’t wait to get into the hive. But it’s very inconvenient if it’s somewhere further away where you have to drive there.
Proponent or opponent?

I have been accused of being a top bar proponent most often. I consider myself neither a proponent nor an opponent. I have several and enjoy them a lot. I tell how to build and manage one here for that reason. But if all you want is natural comb, I’d recommend a Langstroth with foundationless frames. If all you want is to get natural comb and no lifting, then I’d put foundationless in a horizontal Langstroth hive. If you also want to be able to build it easily and cheaply I’d recommend a top bar hive.

Typical mistakes I see newbees make with TBH:

They buy a nuc for a TBH that cannot take Langstroth frames.

If you want bees on something other than the cells size or frame size your nucs are available in, then you should buy a package. Yes, you’ll find some “chop and crop” videos out there that make it look easy to take a nuc and chop it down to a top bar. Keep in mind these are ideal conditions (wax comb and not plastic which is more likely in your nuc, maybe no wires, or very fragile ones etc.) with an expert doing the work. You will most likely not be so lucky and if you’re a beginner you will (and should) be very intimidated by this undertaking. Probably the newbee's logic is someone told them nucs were better without considering the other ramifications. For some reason the magazines and books seem to assume that everyone wants bees in ten frame deep Langstroths.

They hang the queen cage and get a first messed up comb because of the queen cage.

They will always build the first comb from the cage and subsequent combs parallel to that one. So you have now doomed every comb in your hive to be messed up. Hanging the queen cage to “be safe”, is not “being safe”. Direct release her. Yes, they MIGHT abscond, but in my experience they will do it with or without the queen. Typically they like the one next door better and leave that one there anyway.

They buy or build a TBH that is far too small.

You only have a limited space to work with and no supers to add on, so if you start with a very small TBH it will swarm. Constantly. You need to start with a large one and manage the space well.
They are afraid to fix messed up comb.

One bad comb leads to another. One good comb leads to another. If you have bad comb, wishful thinking will not fix the next comb. It will be messed up unless you make the last comb a straight one by whatever means is necessary. Having a frame you can tie a comb into is good to have. Then you can always create a straight comb. Another solution is to find a straight comb and put it at the point they are building comb and put the messed up comb at the front (assuming you don’t tie it into frames or remove it). Empty bars between drawn brood combs will keep them busy building straight combs. Just don’t spread them too thin. They need to be able to fill that gap with festooning bees quickly.

They harvest all the honey and there is no fall flow and no drawn comb for the bees to put stores in.

I would harvest only a little at a time during the flow and try to leave them plenty for winter. This requires a bit of forethought and you probably are not aware how fast conditions can change. To take an old gun saying “aim small miss small”. Keep in mind when harvesting that with no drawn comb you cannot do last minute feeding where they just fill the drawn comb with syrup. They will not be inclined to draw comb when the weather is cold, late in the season.

If they lose a hive they blame something that is handy, like that it’s a top bar hive, or something they did, which may or may not have made a difference.

Hives die sometimes. Sometimes they cold starve (starve with stores in the hive). Sometimes they just starve (starve with no food in the hive). Sometimes they just dwindle in the fall or end up queenless after a swarm. Try to be objective about what might be the problem. If they outright starved, then you harvested too much or didn’t feed enough. But some things are beyond your control and all the above issues happen in Langstroth hives just as much as Top Bar Hives.

These aren’t so much limited to top bar hives, but seem to be common issues with newbees trying to be natural, which includes people going to top bar hives:

They won’t feed at all.

Feeding is not a “right or wrong” kind of thing. It is the kind of thing that should be done for the right reasons and avoided for the right reasons. Flows are hard to predict and even the bees fail at it sometimes. If you never feed they will starve sooner or later. Feed when you have a reason. If you want natural bees then try to manage them so you don’t have to, but if you mess up and harvest too much or the fall flow fails, feed them. There is nothing productive about letting them starve. Feeding might be unnatural, but harvesting their honey is too. You may have created the problem.

Related to this is you should have a plan on how to feed them. It may take some work and time to implement some of the plans, so have a feeder in mind and make sure you have it on hand.

They won’t smoke at all because they think it upsets the bees.

Of course this is backwards. What upsets the bees is when you open a hive with no smoke or far too much or far too hot of smoke. The right amount of smoke is a proven thing since man first started to work with bees. Contrary to popular belief, I do not think it makes them think their house is on fire. It simply interferes with their sense of smell. If it really made them think their house were on fire, then you would be able to get them to abandon their home because of it. I have never been able to produce enough smoke to make them abandon their home and I tried many times when trying to remove them from trees etc. I have, however been able to make enough to asphyxiate them. Of course that is hundreds of times more smoke than needed to calm them.


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## RE JOnes

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

Maybe I am different in some way. I have had more trouble with a lang hive than I have with my TBH. The TBH has built beautiful comb on 20 bars with me only having to trim one bar. The lang that I have constantly ties the frames together with comb and I have had to straighten it up four times.
I plan on setting up another lang to see if it is just the bees that I have in the one that is the problem. They came from a "feral" hive that was built on the side of a rock pile. It was messed up when I retreived it. I have since re-queened, but they still build messed up frames.
Robert


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## bluegrass

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

That has got to be MB's longest post ever. 

My only comment is on the "size" Langstroth came up with for his hive.... I think he recycled a wooden wine box which is why frames still fit nicely in wine boxes. Charles Dadant was more into looking at an appropriate amount of space, which is why he went with a larger volume box. 

But this is just a theory.


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## Oldtimer

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*



RE JOnes said:


> I plan on setting up another lang to see if it is just the bees that I have in the one that is the problem. Robert


I think it might be the beekeeper! 

If the lang is foundationless, the bees do not know they are supposed to build the combs neatly on each frame. It is over to the beekeeper to start them off with comb guides, and then manipulate the combs if they get anything "wrong", so the combs are kept straight.


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## Adam Foster Collins

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

Great post, Michael.

One of the things that really sets you apart as a person a lot of people go to for information, is that you do have experience with top bar hives, and your take is pretty moderate. As you say, you're not a proponent or an opponent. The bottom line is that each approach offers different pros and cons, and the individual beekeeper and scenario will come with different needs.

I'm glad you wrote the additional information for the top bar section of your site.

Adam


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## RE JOnes

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

Oldtimer, the frames are not foundationless, they are plastic that have been coated with wax. They are shoved together as tight as I can get them, and they still attach about four inches of comb between the frames, tieing them together.

I have tried everything that I know(not much) and everything that people have told me, and still they continue to do this. Maybe it is the beekeeper, and maybe I should concentrate on TBH's instead of langs??? I see to have better luck with them.

As soon as I get some more bees, we will be trying another lang.
Robert


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## sqkcrk

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*



RE JOnes said:


> It was messed up when I retreived it. I have since re-queened, but they still build messed up frames.
> Robert


I would suggest putting a new frame of foundation beyween each of the "messed up" combs and eventually moving those messed up combs to the outside of the box. If there is a rib of comb sticking out from the face of the comb the bees will reattatcxh it to the adjacant comb. 

I'm not surprised you have had trouble w/ this colony and not w/ a tbh. I imagine you put a package of bees into a tbh and let them do their thing. Had you done the same w/ a Langstroth type hive you may have had similar success. Maybe not, but just as likely, imo.


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## RE JOnes

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

None of the bees that I have are from a package or nuc, they are all "feral". All are swarms or hives that I get from where I work.
I will try your suggestion and see what happens.

As I said in a previous post, this hive was the most messed up one that I have ever seen in the wild. They had built on a bush and comb was running every way possible. They still seem determined to continue in this fashion.
Thanks, Robert


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## sqkcrk

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

Then you shouldn't be surprised, right? And you shouldn't expect them to do differently in a tbh or Langstroth were you to shake them into either giving them top bars or empty frames. I would think. 

Isn't life interesting?


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## Oldtimer

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*



RE JOnes said:


> Oldtimer, the frames are not foundationless, they are plastic that have been coated with wax. They are shoved together as tight as I can get them, and they still attach about four inches of comb between the frames, tieing them together.
> 
> I have tried everything that I know(not much) and everything that people have told me, and still they continue to do this. Maybe it is the beekeeper, and maybe I should concentrate on TBH's instead of langs??? I see to have better luck with them.
> 
> As soon as I get some more bees, we will be trying another lang.
> Robert


Oh, that's the bees telling you what they think of plastic, rather than build on it they have been trying to squeeze comb in between. 

Give them something a bit more natural, like normal beeswax foundation, and your problem will go away.


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## chaindrivecharlie

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*



Oldtimer said:


> Oh, that's the bees telling you what they think of plastic, rather than build on it they have been trying to squeeze comb in between.
> 
> Give them something a bit more natural, like normal beeswax foundation, and your problem will go away.


 I would have to agree with Oldtimer on this. I have kepted bees on and off since 1967. And helped manage 450 hives with my Uncle in San Antonio, Florida during the 70's and 80's. Never had plastic back then, used natural wax foundation set in wire. I dont have Langs now, I have 4 Warre's. If your worried about CCD, then wax starter strips or wax coated guides in top of frame. I do believe bees are better off with new wax comb every year or two.


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## SantaFeBeek

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

Great discussion. Thanks for all the info, MB and others. I've got both tbhs and langs, but I've been thinking my next hive would be a horizontal langstroth, which I think can give me the best of both worlds.


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## clumsy red bear

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

I am just barely starting and so all I have are first impressions. It sounded pretty objective to me. I built the top bar style mostly because of startup cost and I thought it was interesting about maybe doing the comb their way might be slightly smaller, faster to cap and help against the mites. I don't have a smoker but might get one. So far they tolerate me. Anway I might try other style hives too if I can afford it. What I see in it all is bees seem very flexible, adapt and work with what they've got  Whatever style it is, we are inviting them to live in a box we built and want them building their combs to suit our intent to eventually interfere to varying degrees and harvest honey ...humans and bees go way back and I would like to keep it going.


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## robherc

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*



clumsy red bear said:


> I don't have a smoker but might get one. So far they tolerate me.


I'd have to say: Get One. ... Or at least have a "spritz" bottle of syrup that's been scented with some LGO handy, so you have _something_ to use to help you calm the bees on the inevitable days when they're simply not GOING to be calm on their own. I've used both smoke, and the scented syrup...didn't notice much difference in bee aggression between the two, but queens are easier to find when using only the syrup, so that's what I use more often. That's my personal preference, use what works for you...just have SOMETHING available, because you WILL need it (and likely very soon).

As far as the rest of this conversation, most of it sounds fine to me, and the only part of the post at http://www.polkmoms.com/forum/topic...042717:Comment:166283&xg_source=msg_com_forum that I personally disagreed with is the part about TBHs being more likely to build crazy comb...that's already been addressed in this thread, and just about everything else he said appears to be about spot-on.


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## Daniel Y

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

Clumsy bear, I have both. a lang for 5 weeks and the top bar for two so not a ton of experience. But I can say they both have there pros and cons. the lang is a terror for me right now because the brood nest is down there under a couple of boxes and I really shouldn't mess with it. The top bar it is right there like everything else is so it is no more disruptive to check on brood as it is to check on anything else. But disruption of the top bar so far is way more serious. cutting and reattaching of comb. tearing things up on a regular basis. nectar the bees have worked hard for getting spilled from comb. brood put at risk. now that is a nightmare and it really does not set well with me. That is not everyone's experience with a top bar and getting comb drawn so I may have just drawn the short straw. I love visiting my bees and do it more often than I should . But I don't really like feeling like the drunken belligerent uncle Mo afterward. But for now that looks like how it will be for a while. They are getting better at putting the comb where it needs to be so maybe this will turn around for me in the next couple of days.
If I had to put it in simple terms. I find the top bar easy in regard to most things. the lang is flexible. There are also things that I think might be worthwhile to do in regard to top bar "Frames" I think it might take out most of the negative for me. at least until the hive outgrows the box.


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## robherc

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

Daniel Y:
What are you using for comb guides in your TBH? In my boxes, I've found that good comb guides have made all the difference...and I imbed about a 1/2-drop of artificial Nasonov along the bottom edge of my guides to be sure


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## Daniel Y

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

I put a wooden strip and then coated it with wax. I was also told to put dowels in the bar pointing down to add stability to the comb for later. Several of the combs they got started in the right place just fine but as soon as they met that dowel they turned the comb at almost a 45 degree angle and headed off across multiple bars. I had to cut away bits of comb, not a lot because I am watching them pretty close ad then give them some incentive to build around those dowels. They are past the first one (there are two) on most of the bars. most of the comb is starting to stay centered on the bars now but a lot of it has strange spots in it. comb that is almost sideways etc. I am just waiting to see if they sort it all out or if my hive will just have some strange passages in it. The good news is there is a lot of brood in every comb and quite a bit is capped now.
I also have two bars that I attached 1 inch wide strips of foundation wax to. The bees don't seem to appreciate it much but it is helping them put the comb where it is supposed to be.

on other bars they went from starting the comb in the center to starting them on the edge. again these had to be cut away and reattached in the center of the bar. these have been the worst. IN other places they want to keep starting a new comb right dead center of two combs that are where they are supposed to be. that is not much of a problem I just take the bits of wa and add it to my growing collection. Then there is the burr comb also again not a huge problem. But when you add it all together it seems I am almost tearing it all apart as fast as they can build it. I know eventually they will get comb drawn where it is supposed to be but for now it looks like it will be a long road getting there.


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## clumsy red bear

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

I forgot I wanted to tell PatBeek -- Looking at your pics your hive is sitting up on blocks. That is how I had mine but down low just one one row of blocks and a big windstorm came through and blew it off and upside down, knocked all the comb down  Yours might be better protected by the fence but anyway fyi if you get storms. I have had suggestions for angled legs, ratchet straps, tiedowns.

@Daniel Y Yeah I hear you about pros and cons. Mine did cross combs and I knocked a comb down. Then the storm! Did you put some wax on the guides? I didn't at first but after the storm I rehung the good ones straight and put the best ones on the outside plus waxed the guides so now they are building new ones straight. Also very new comb seems super soft so I am just gently scooting those bars over and not lifting them out. They have reattached the busted combs and built them bigger, seem more solid. I have had mine about a month after catching a swarm. I was wondering the same thing about maybe making partial frames at the top for extra solid top corners? One one comb they are attaching one side to the wall. I am leaving it alone until they repair the storm mess. I also wonder if it would be better to just leave some of the core brood nest completely alone and just check the outer ones? Anyway I guess we will learn! 

@Robherc thanks for telling experience with smoker and syrup. I am almost in over my head catching this swarm! I wasn't planning on bees until next spring but running with it and having fun mostly


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## robherc

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

I haven't heard of the dowels before...they sound like a recipe for BAD cross-combing to me (why would you put something that wide right in the way of the center rib?)...but your wax-coated wood strips sound ok (although I've heard argument that the wax coating we put on isn't as strong as if we let them do it themselves...not sure there). For mine, I've been brad-nailing 1/16" to 1/8" thick strips into saw kerfs down the middles of the bars, then adding tiny dabs of Swarm Pheromone (aka Nasonov, or LGO+geranium oil+lemon oil)to the lower edge of the guides, so far only 2 of 14 hives haven't started every comb on the center of that strip, and one of those was my fault for leaving gaps between the bars on an empty box...which a swarm decided to move into.

I think dabbing a tiny bit of LGO on the comb guides should help with your problems re: combs getting attached to the edge of the bar, rather than the guide.

The combs being started "dead center between two combs" sounds like your bars might be a bit too wide; I use mostly 1.25" bars in my brood areas; although my bees seem to accept a mixture of 1.25" with 1.375" bars thrown in...defo. would NOT recommend going wider than 1.375" anywhere your'e expecting them to want brood though. In my hives, I'm using the 1.375" wide bars for honey storage combs, although I've heard of using 1.5" thick bars there.

Burr/Brace comb happens in just about any kind of hive...not sure there's much to do about that, save for being careful to cut it before it rips a comb off your bar(s)

One thing I notice you haven't complained about yet, but that I've seen quite a bit, is that the bees will often "curve" the ends of the combs a bit towards the front or back of the hive. Mine usually don't do it quite enough to connect to more than, say, 1/8" or so of the next bar, but it defo. makes the bars have a definitive "front" and "back" if you don't adjust it back to straight(ish)


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## robherc

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

clumsy red bear-
When I'm hiving swarms that are accessible, I spritz the whole mass of them pretty well with the syrup, then knock 'em down into the box & close it up, save for the entrance. With the syrup making their wings heavy & sticky, and the LGO in it making them hungry/distracted, the vast majority of them just plunk down into the bottom of the box, then start fanning Nasonov to attract the "stragglers" into their new "home." If you can, leave the box like that until dark & almost every single bee will be inside; alternately, I've closed the box up & taken it away with me as soon as I was 100% sure the queen was inside, then come back after dark and every single bee from the swarm will be clustered on whatever spot has the strongest remaining queen pheromone smell...nice & easy to spritz them down & plunk them into another box, to be rejoined with the rest of their mates back @ your bee yard


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## Keefis

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

The reason that a TBH is superior is because of the adaptability. If you build a Lang hive it better be within 1/16" of correct measurements or the frames etc won't fit. A lang hive is more productive honey wise but the initial investment for all the equipment is not cheap.
A TBH however is easily built from whatever scrap wood you have and dimensions are not as important.
You built your hive... I built mine.. the Lang owners, probably not. They are probably jealous!!
They will tell you BUY this from here and so on and so on...No thanks, I will make my own. 
Your hive is a little short, but you can control the swarm somewhat by cutting out brood every so often.


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## Daniel Y

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*

Rob, so far not enough curve to complain about. not nice and straight like a frame in a lang but not so bad I can't remove the comb....yet. I can see where they are headed that way though. Score one for me I guess. They seem to be straightening out the twisted comb now. they have chewed holes thorugh it like maybe they are trying to rebuild it.

As for the dowels it was one suggestion I read and followed. Not all ideas are good ones. this is one I will be forgetting. I put dowels in only 10 frames so I don't have to go cut them out of everything. I did know enough to not go all out with anything I had not at least tried out. I wanted 1/8 inch dowel but could only find 3/16 I am not sure if the smaller dowel woudl have worked better. my intuition says no. They meet that obstical and want to make a turn.

I agree that the bees attaching the wax would be stronger. but in this case there is only about a 1/4 inch strip of wax I applied . they attach the rest of the comb width themselves. I started with the widest bars recommended because I can always make them thinner. It does appear they are just a bit wide for these bees. I think that problem will correct itself as they get the comb drawn out a bit further. So far the 9 bars they are working on are hopefully going to be the brood nest. I will trim the rest of the bars to hep prevent this filling in.

Probably worse than the burr comb is that they want to attach every comb to the side of the hive. that is easy to fix by just cutting it away. They are still building comb like crazy and there is capped brood all over the place. 21 days is a week from today so they will get there first shot of population growth. Although small this hive can use all the help it can get. I don't even ant to try and guess how many eggs the queen could be laying a day now. The comb is now large enough that all the bees can reach it to work on it so the building speed has increased quite a bit. THey have done all this without any sugar water also. I can't get them to take it.


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## robherc

*Re: How would you all respond to this "constructive criticism" of the top bar hive?*



Daniel Y said:


> I wanted 1/8 inch dowel but could only find 3/16 I am not sure if the smaller dowel would have worked better. my intuition says no. They meet that obstacle and want to make a turn.


One thing I just thought of, since you're concerned about comb breakage...I've used 1/2" or more of "guide strip" up to 1/8" thick, hanging down from my top bars, and the bees attached the center rib of their combs to the bottom edge, then attached cells directly to the face of the strip, almost like it was the center rib, above that. Maybe if you used 1" or even 2" tall, thin strips of wood for "comb guides," your bees may build cells on the faces of the strips as well, almost turning them into wooden "foundation" for the top couple inches of your combs.



> It does appear they are just a bit wide for these bees. I think that problem will correct itself as they get the comb drawn out a bit further. So far the 9 bars they are working on are hopefully going to be the brood nest. I will trim the rest of the bars to help prevent this filling in.


On that one, I'd recommend moving these bars to the honey storage area eventually...in the brood nest, I doubt they'll ever draw them much deeper, as the brood only needs a growing chamber of a certain length...which may lead to honey storage up top (not a bad thing), followed by some crazy, undulating comb down low (could be bad)...just my opinion/guess on that last part, tho.



> Probably worse than the burr comb is that they want to attach every comb to the side of the hive. that is easy to fix by just cutting it away.
> <snip>
> They have done all this without any sugar water also. I can't get them to take it.


The side attachments, unfortunately, appear to be unavoidable, no matter the hive design you use...at least I haven't found any way to curb it yet.
As far as the syrup goes, mine ignored even scented syrup when a really strong flow was going on...so I'd take that as good news that your bees are collecting good, nutritious nectar to feed their young, instead of needing to settle for syrup 



Good Luck & Happy Bees,
Rob


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