# I will never buy packages again.



## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

Long story short, a buddy of mine was getting deployed and had ordered nine packages. I have not bought a package in years, but he had already paid for them, and they would arrive after he left. I paid him for what he had in them. They arrived, I installed them, and they did well over the summer. They built up to two deeps, with full ofhoney in the top deep, and lots of bees. . It was my usual winter set up with a deep of honey and a candy board on top for good measure, had a warm day today, checked hives, and four are dead. My other thirty hives which are local queens that I have raised or gotten from a friend are doing fine. Before anyone asks, yes I checked for mites, yes I treated, and yes they had plenty of food. It has been somewhat of a mild winter, with flying days at last once a week. The package hives are in the same yard as my local bees. I knew I should have requeened as soon as I got them, but they were doing so well over the summer, I didn't. I don't claim to be a Michael Bush or Michael Palmer, but I usually have pretty good luck overwintering bees. The only common factor is that the dead outs were all spring packages.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Dare I ask from what direction these packages came?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

How about an update when winter is over with on the balance of the bees! The test is not over with yet is it?


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

Honey-4-All said:


> How about an update when winter is over with on the balance of the bees! The test is not over with yet is it?


No, the test isn't over yet, but an almost 50 percent loss on the packages, when I am used to about a 5 percent loss? Kind of speaks for itself.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Matt903 said:


> Before anyone asks, yes I checked for mites, yes I treated, and yes they had plenty of food. The only common factor is that the dead outs were all spring packages.


They must have died from mites, what were your counts when you treated :lpf: What did the other five hives look like? What about the dead clusters, or were there any? Also, why did you anticipate needing to requeen them? The common factor may or may not be the common demise, particularly if the other five are "kicking".


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## beefarmer (May 2, 2010)

You lost 4 out of 9, almost 50% and winter is only half over, I totally agree with you local queens are best.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Look at it this way, you helped a bud out of a jam and now you've got drawn out comb for spring splits. I haven't bought a queen in years, mutt queens don't cost you a thing except the time it takes you to raise them, no matter what method you use.


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

rwlaw said:


> Look at it this way, you helped a bud out of a jam and now you've got drawn out comb for spring splits. I haven't bought a queen in years, mutt queens don't cost you a thing except the time it takes you to raise them, no matter what method you use.


You are exactly right. I am glad I could help him, and I do have 80 frames of drawn comb now, the post was really an observation of the unreliabllity of package bees. 

Fields, how do you figure it was mites? I treated. There were 0 mite counts using alcohol wash going into fall. One of them I know was a queen failure, because I found two cells. The other three just dwindled away.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Who was the package supplier?


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Haraga said:


> Who was the package supplier?


Yes, all package bees are not the same. And perhaps there was a difference in climate adaptation to your area. Just a thought...


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Matt903 said:


> the post was really an observation of the unreliabllity of package bees.


Hold on there JR Scientist: If you are going to base all your beekeeping decisions on studies containing only 8 or 9 samples in every test I personally have pity for the scientist who mentored you on obtaining valid results which would provide both an accurate and meaningful picture of what you are studying!

8 is a poor sample size considering the hundreds of thousands of packages produced every year. 

Bees die and bees live but to blame "packages" in general is just plain absurd.

Beekeeping today is way to complicated to narrow this all down to either packages or "locally" adapted!


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## Cessna180 (Jan 31, 2009)

I agree With Honey-4-all. But as a supplier of bees Ill tell ya Local queens are somewhat better if everything goes right.
But finding local queens in Spring is impossible in the Northwest. Even if you re queen it isnt 100% certain. I have lost new queens from great breeders. But I don't blame him. Its farming folks. Plain an simple. It great you helped him out.
If you got comb and some honey that's great, don't ya think?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

180....I'm sure you get many a newbie who wants one of your packages delivered with a local queen. In some cases it possible but in many instances the season will be well on the way down the road of ancient history when they are available. 

Case in point in my best estimation: Not much of a viable option for those that insist on "local" and want them delivered to Homer or somewhere along the Talkeetna spur and hope to make a crop. 

Some places the buyer is bound to be more upset when they find out their "locally" raised July only queen just missed out on all the years crop potential and the winter is going to take out the bees no matter how local the bees are.


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## Cessna180 (Jan 31, 2009)

I don't even offer local queens. I tell the cusotmers where the Queens are from and to requeen with a local one if they like. I have never had a problem anywhere in Alaska or the Northwest with California Queens, but we never tried to keep them over winter. I konw some guys that do keep them over winter but they are new to the program. It can be done with a Russians which I have and they make it, but not many other types, Winters are just to long. Russians also require some different management.
It's Farming...


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

If you start bee keeping with a southern package, How long do you have to rear that hive and keep them going, before they are considered local?


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## Cessna180 (Jan 31, 2009)

Well, that depends. It all depends where the queen comes from. A local queen is one that has servived the conditions for the area. Usually bred for a few generations in that area from what is termed surivor stock. Evaluated by an expert in queen breeding and genetics and hope it works.
Read up on it in a breeding book.


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## Dave Warren (May 14, 2012)

had 6 hives in November, now have 2, just happens to be the two I got from ferrel swarms.
Maybe there something about package bees!
My ferrel's are all different colors it's neat.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

rookie2531 said:


> If you start bee keeping with a southern package, How long do you have to rear that hive and keep them going, before they are considered local?


Till they say, "You guys." See y'all.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I too once said *"I will never use packages again"*................ just ordered 2 for replacements. Cant bet on a swarm, but will be there to catch all I can. G


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## HeritageHoney (Feb 28, 2013)

Riverderwent said:


> Till they say, "You guys." See y'all.


That's just funny right there!!!

Maybe all the package producers, both Southern and West Coast, should stop producing packages for a year and concentrate solely on making splits and honey production. I'm sure no one would complain then...........................not about pollination prices, or honey prices, OR the availability of bees, OR about Nuc prices................
What would result would surely be a "beekeeping utopia"..........


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

Honey-4-All said:


> Hold on there JR Scientist: If you are going to base all your beekeeping decisions on studies containing only 8 or 9 samples in every test I personally have pity for the scientist who mentored you on obtaining valid results which would provide both an accurate and meaningful picture of what you are studying!
> 
> 8 is a poor sample size considering the hundreds of thousands of packages produced every year.
> 
> ...


Did I say anything about basing ALL my beekeeping decisions on what happened to my packages? Did anywhere in the post did I mention scientific study? I merely shared an experience in which package hives were dying, and others were not. I found this observation interesting, and which leads me to question the worth of package bees, at least from the supplier I got them from. However, I am sure we could find numerous posts stating the same thing. I think SOME package suppliers are more interested in getting as many packages sold as they possibly can, while sacrificing quality. Again, my opinion, based on my experience. Not based on scientific study.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Matt903 said:


> Fields, how do you figure it was mites? I treated. There were 0 mite counts using alcohol wash going into fall. One of them I know was a queen failure, because I found two cells. The other three just dwindled away.


Notice me pounding the floor after the statement . It was a joke, my point was many hives get diagnosed from afar failing because of mites (which may or may not be true). Which you must have noticed, because you said before everyone ask, I treated. Hives that are treated die, hives that are not treated die. The "management" is to figure that out before they are dead and see how to prevent them from dying, whatever your practice/management may be. 
Slow dwindling and queen failure is something you have to have your head in the box to find out  As pointed out, you have lots of resources for the Spring.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Matt903 said:


> Lhey built up to two deeps, with full ofhoney in the top deep, and lots of bees. .


Did you harvest any honey or was the hives light in the fall? Was there any left after they died?

I would like to know where they came from especially if you wouldn't buy them again.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Packaged bees are not bred to stay alive. It is much better if they die and you have to replace them every year. Most of the problems you read about here on beesource come from packaged bees.

IMO the reason we still have mite problems is because of inferior bees/queen sent all over the country spreading bad genes of bee that can't survive mites.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Dave Warren said:


> had 6 hives in November, now have 2, just happens to be the two I got from ferrel swarms.
> Maybe there something about package bees!
> My ferrel's are all different colors it's neat.


My experience is similar. Had 5 colonies in early December. Now have 3, 2 of which happen to be the 2 swarms I caught. Undoubtedly I will try to attract more swarms this spring and summer. Of the 2 that bit the dust, one had never looked right during the summer and fall, so I figured that it would possibly succumb.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

FlowerPlanter said:


> *Packaged bees are not bred to stay alive. It is much better if they die and you have to replace them every year*. Most of the problems you read about here on beesource come from packaged bees.
> 
> IMO the reason we still have mite problems is because of inferior bees/queen sent all over the country spreading bad genes of bee that can't survive mites.


If this isn't the most dumb if not slanderous conjecture I have run across on BS in a long time I don't know what is. Any implications that the package producers are producing a product that is designed under any "made to fail" manner is far flung and outright ridiculous. 

Any people out there doing so.............. I hope they fail right quick. None in my neck of the woods.

All the queen raisers I know have more heart and soul put into producing a great product than anyone here could even imagine.

:w: R


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Honey-4-All said:


> All the queen raisers I know have more heart and soul put into producing a great product than anyone here could even imagine.


Can you explain how the scenario goes?

The queen breeders sell to the outlet stores which don't raise bees. When a customer buys a queen does it come from the outlet's inventory or is it direct shipped from the queen breeder? If it comes from inventory how are the queens kept viable? What would you say is the amount of time that rolls by that the once good queen has been forced to stop laying?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I've bought queens from Honey-4-All. Produced 3 mediums and 1 deep of honey for me last year, going into 3rd season strong this year, horrible queens, and even worse when he puts them in a package and sends them off....


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Can you explain how the scenario goes?
> 
> The queen breeders sell to the outlet stores which don't raise bees. When a customer buys a queen does it come from the outlet's inventory or is it direct shipped from the queen breeder? If it comes from inventory how are the queens kept viable? What would you say is the amount of time that rolls by that the once good queen has been forced to stop laying?


What are you smoking today? what outlet stores are you talking about. Typically you order in advance and pick up when they're ready or have been received from the producer and you have a small window.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

There are a few things that I look forward to doing every year, year after year.
Going to almonds is one. Raising some queens is another.

One thing that I do every year, is shake a bunch of packages for myself.
All of my friends shake bees into bulk cages but not me. I have an old fashioned package funnel.
So every year, for every brand new hive with foundation that I start, I shake a package.
I restart dead-outs with nucs or make hard divides. But I have never really cared for starting up new equipment with nucs. I prefer packages.
I greatly prefer the way that packages and swarms draw out all of that new comb.
The packages do very, very well. I have no complaints at all.

One must remember that after a package is installed and PROPERLY started up, it only remains a "package" for a few weeks.
After that ALL of the bees that came in the package are dead and you now have a hive of bees and brood that are on their way up. (hopefully)

The biggest problem that I see others encounter with their packages is improper queen introduction procedure.
Secondly, not feeding enough syrup.
Third, not evaluating queen performance.

It does seem like I have at least one queen sputter and need replaced every year in my packages.
Last year I shook 32 and started up 32 new hives out behind our barn.

2 of the queens failed shortly after laying out a couple frames.
HEY! That's beekeeping!
I will probably shake 40 more this year just for fun. 
And all of them are started with Northern California queens.

I look forward to this every year and they do very well, year after year.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Matt:

Knowing that you should have changed the queens, why didn't you? The one thing in this scenario that was within your control, you chose to ignore even when your inner voice told you to do so. I buy a lot of queens and we have issues with them, less with the ones we raise but it is just part of farming. We need both, the ones we raise and the ones we buy.

Jean-Marc


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Acebird said:


> *Can you explain how the scenario goes*?
> 
> The queen breeders sell to the outlet stores which don't raise bees. When a customer buys a queen does it come from the outlet's inventory or is it direct shipped from the queen breeder? If it comes from inventory how are the queens kept viable? What would you say is the amount of time that rolls by that the once good queen has been forced to stop laying?


ACE: Would be more than glad to answer under two conditions. 1. You extrapolate a little deeper as to what your mean in asking "how the scenario goes?" 2. I have any insight in to the answer... I may or might not know.


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## Redneck (Oct 2, 2005)

Some package producers are raising more bees than they have queens for, so they order queens from whoever has them. Some are inferior, and even some are virgin queens that are too old to mate properly. This creates problems. I gave some of my friends queens last year after their package queens failed or disappeared. Their bees are still living today. One friend chose to leave his package queen there to winter with his package bees. He has no bees today. You must always be careful living in a seller's market instead of a buyer's. Queens are not as good quality wise as they have been in the past. This is not a scientific study, but experience of over 60 years in beekeeping. This is why I am raising my own queens, even though I had rather be buying queens. There is a lot of work and time going into raising good quality queens.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JRG13 said:


> Typically you order in advance and pick up when they're ready or have been received from the producer and you have a small window.


I am not smoking anything.

Honey4all, is this the scenario? If it is then I would still like the "window" defined. My next question is if this is the scenario why buy from the outlet store? They got to tac on profit margin and they are doing nothing for you.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I wonder why some people perceive package bees as inferior. I've made up more than a few to abuse and test other factors that might affect the end user experience. I think maybe people blame the package or the bees in it rather than examine things closer

Package bees are a different experience and not always the best choice for a given situation. I think dollar for dollar they still offer in most cases the nearly same odds of sucsess as any other method of buying bees.

There is nothing that can match their explosive growth rate.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Acebird said:


> I am not smoking anything.
> 
> Honey4all, is this the scenario? If it is then I would still like the "window" defined. My next question is if this is the scenario why buy from the outlet store? They got to tac on profit margin and they are doing nothing for you.



Brian.... Still at a loss as to what exactly you are asking. 

As for the "distributors" not "performing any service" I would mightily disagree with you. You might disagree with yourself also if you had ever had the chance to sit on the side of the table handing out packages on a distribution day. The days we have it I'm shot mentally for the rest of a day as well as half on the next every occasion we have "pickup" day in April. Dealing with all the people and all their questions and concerns is not as much of a free ride as one would think. 

Secondly. April is April....... If you have enough hours in the day to get all the beework done that you should you are not very "commercial"

People who do the distribution free up the beekeeper to do beekeeping......... Sales time takes time away from hive tool time!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I bought three packages this year, one of them had queen issues from the get-go. I cannot really blame anyone other than "roll of the dice". The supplier supplied another queen, but she went drone layer shortly after being installed. All three packages are doing well so far this winter, the one with queen problems certainly has a small cluster, but they have survived -20/25 degree nights and are still ticking.

I think packages and package suppliers are easy to blame in a culture where accountability and responsibility are decades forgotten attributes.
Was it the package suppliers fault that the drone layer didn't get properly mated? Certainly not directly? Should I expect that a package in early April shipped to Iowa from California would not have some possible issues? I don't think so. If you think that you can take what amounts to a swarm and drag them into your locale two months before "swarm" season and expect them to universally thrive regardless of what care you give them, I think you should prepare for "unmanaged swarm" type losses which are somewhere around 66% failure if I recall Tom Seeley's book correctly.

Should I expect that I can shake my bees into a box, ignore them for eight weeks, and then get another box of bees for free when I finally poke my head in to see that there's nothing left? Nope. There are a lot of things that can go wrong and a few that can go right... some to do with bees, some with weather, some with supplier, some with beekeeper. It's a complex dynamic.

I personally also hope to not buy packages anytime soon... not because I was disappointed with them, but because they are freaking expensive.


On a side note, will someone please make a post in the main forum when Acebird fashions a post worth reading? I don't want to miss it after all this buildup. 



Honey-4-All said:


> Brian.... Still at a loss as to what exactly you are asking.
> 
> As for the "distributors" not "performing any service" I would mightily disagree with you. You might disagree with yourself also if you had ever had the chance to sit on the side of the table handing out packages on a distribution day. The days we have it I'm shot mentally for the rest of a day as well as half on the next every occasion we have "pickup" day in April. Dealing with all the people and all their questions and concerns is not as much of a free ride as one would think.
> 
> ...


When Mr. Acebird buys a new vacuum, I bet he drives straight to the Hoover factory. Picks up milk from the local dairy farm. Drives to California if he wants almonds... you get the idea. Not sure how he finds the time to avoid all "middle-men" and post 10,000 times on here, though. Busy guy, I'd imagine.


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

jean-marc said:


> Matt:
> 
> Knowing that you should have changed the queens, why didn't you? The one thing in this scenario that was within your control, you chose to ignore even when your inner voice told you to do so. I buy a lot of queens and we have issues with them, less with the ones we raise but it is just part of farming. We need both, the ones we raise and the ones we buy.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Jean,

These were the first packages I bought in over ten years. I have read numerous posts here on BS that talk about package queens being inferior, and that the best thing to do is to replace them ASAP. Well, the package queens I had were doing well, I thought that it might be a good thing to keep them to add to the gene pool in my bee yards, so I did not re-queen. I was wavering between listening to folks on BS, or trying to get some new genes in the yard. Since I posted this, I really dug into the dead outs, it looks like in all four hives, the queen failed late in the season. I even found a queen cell with a dead queen inside. I think the failures happened really late, after the drones quit flying. When I closed up in November, everything seemed fine.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

For as long as I have been reading Beesource there has been a constant theme of people saying how terrible package bees are, which are described as bred not to live, etc. While at the same time extolling the virtues of "local mutts", which tend to be described as hardy, tough, survivors.

The anomaly in this situation being that every year people keep buying these terrible package bees, and paying big bucks for them.

Something doesn't seem to add up. Is there a message in this?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_Jwcarlson _... here's that post/thread you wanted to read ... :lpf:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?252164-Non-Myth-Information


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I'll just say, if you get them from a reputable producer, I think package bees are a _BARGAN_. I would buy them over nucs, no question. In my opinion, they can be a cleaner product that can be easily and _quickly_ be adapted towards the performance I am looking for and my specific climate. 

Of course there are going to be occasional duds as well as exceptional performers. Most will likely be average performers.

Those package bees are perfect for commercial use. 

*It's up to YOU to make them perfect for your home use.* 

There is no way the producer can predict where those bees will end up. Theres no way they can provide the perfect genetics for your location and you specific personal needs and wants. And due to_ public demand_ for the earliest bees, they _may_ have to do it is less than optimal weather conditions.

I have a friend who is having some problems currently with her colony, made from a new Italian package this year. 
Here is part of what I told her:

Think back to this time last year when those bees in your package were in Calif, enjoying mild weather, rearing brood and being able to fly nearly every day, if not every day.
These bees are bred and raised in that environment, and likely have been for generations.

Now take a look at their environment today.
Dead of winter in Minnesota. 

Unfortunatly, Minnesota is more known for ice fishing than almond production this time of year. 


Which Type of Queen is for Me? Heres a description from another web site:

A healthy Italian hive will have a lot of brood year-round. The queen tends to lay regardless of weather or nectar availability. Most beekeepers that pollinate early crops prefer the Italian for this reason--more bees early in Spring when it is still cool. Because of the large number of bees it is important to FEED an Italian hive over the winter, or leave sufficient honey in the hive. They can survive cold temperatures, but need food for the plentiful brood.'

'A healthy Carniolan hive will have a smaller cluster of bees over the winter, as the queen will lay less when the weather cools. As a result, there will be less brood and the hive will need less food over the winter. This can be beneficial in a cold, harsh winter climate where it is difficult or expensive to feed larger quantities. Spring buildup will tend to be slower to start, but once the hive is built up, the Carniolan should be equally as productive as the Italian. The Carniolan may not be ideal for a hot, dry climate.'

Let new packages build then RE QUEEN with the appropriate genetics best suited for your climate, with a queen that is well mated in the warm summer months. 

What happens is, folks see their new packages build and thrive the first few months and don't want to change anything at that point. But your situation is classic as to what can happen if you don't. You may pay for it later on when those specific wintertime traits are needed & you don't have them.

If you get 15-20 frames freshly drawn and filled with feed & good new young brood out of that original package queen, I would certainly feel I'd gotten my moneys worth out of her. I'd consider her a starter queen that will prime my colony for a more permanent and personally selected premium queen of my choosing that will increase my odds for overwintering success. 

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...y4926001/2014 bee pics/4-4-14_zps01fddd82.jpg

Clean and fresh. A package or a swarm can give you frames like this, right off the bat. But be sure to feed at the appropriate times during the season.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P7110023_zps217a7c6f.jpg


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>If this isn't the most dumb if not slanderous conjecture I have run across on BS in a long time

If just from this thread alone (and there are many more like it on BS) that state that packages are inferior to swarms in the fact that they don't survive, can’t survive without treatments.
So how could that possible be the "most dumb if not slanderous conjecture" on BS?

>All the queen raisers I know have more heart and soul put into producing a great product
I am sure they do. And if they are a small family owned business or back yard beek that is raising queens from their best, by selectively breeding for good quality traits (not just production) to include mite resistance disease resistance then they may be helping the gene pool. 
But if they are breeding queen for money as the main goal with disregard to mites or survivability then they are making an inferior product and spreading it across the country.

Bee supply stores that don’t raise bees, buy packages from bee factories in the south by the thousands are not do anyone any good. The bottom line is for a dollar. The will buy from the cheapest package source they can find and or negotiate.
Often selling packages that can't survive in the north (how many times have you heard that on BS). At the same time spreading those same genes all over the country.

On R Oliver view on feral bees
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...fference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/

T Seely;
http://www.nbb.cornell.edu/seeley.shtml

“At present, my main research interest is in the area of conservation biology: determining how honey bee colonies living in the wild are able to survive without being treated with pesticides for controlling a deadly ectoparasitic mite, Varroa destructor.”


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

To look on the bright side of this upside down equation it should be noted that there are some very good programs being implemented to detect the issues and reverse the trend of Bad Queens.

If you look at Mann Lakes package bee page ( http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/category/pb.html) you will notice the efforts that their supplier ( ohbees.com) is doing to combat the problems through research by utilizing institutions such as ( http://beeinformed.org/ ) and (http://entomology.ces.ncsu.edu/apiculture/queen-disease-clinic/ ) .

As one of the original 20+- breeders in the beeinformed project their help has assisted us tremendously with improving our queens. We will also be utilizing the NC state services this coming year in order to assist us in improving queen quality. 

For those of you hobbyist who are sick of all the dead bee issues you might want to consider what the commercial people are also going through. We are working on it and the benefits we derive will eventually pass on down the line to the hobbyist level.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Then there must be a fortune to be made if somebody started selling "feral bees". An honest product that is not bred to die, would surely take the market by storm. It's so simple I wonder why people aren't jumping on to this highly profitable opportunity?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Anyone buying bees this year might want to _consider_ the findings in this study:

http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE10-694&y=2010&t=1

I say consider, because there are always exceptions. But in general, this may be good information to help you control some of the issues of Survivability of new colonies.

When I read studies I enjoy seeing the facts, but sometimes am a little surprised at the conclusions that were base on those facts. You just have to scrutinize the condition's and come to your own conclusions. _If_ all the facts were published & actually availble for you to see.
When there's human involvement, there's bound to be _some_ bias and_ some_ margin of error.

When I read this last year, I do remember wondering how the specimens were chosen for the package replacements. If both the Southern and the Northern queens were reared, handled and mated under the same sort of conditions to make the comparisons showing more of a genetic difference in strains. 

If I remember right, It seemed to me they _may _have compared some random package queens to cherry picked northerns. That is one question I have that might change the findings, at least somewhat. It's hard to compare northern queens that are reared and mated 60 days or more after package queens were, even considering the different climates.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Then there must be a fortune to be made if somebody started selling "feral bees". An honest product that is not bred to die, would surely take the market by storm. It's so simple I wonder why people aren't jumping on to this highly profitable opportunity?


Treatment free often comes from feral stock. Sources can be found if you look hard enough. They always seem sell out quick.
But it's like organic, most know it's better for them but don't want the additional cost and or the inconvenient to find it. Who wants to go to the farmers market when you can go to walmart.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Who wants to go to the farmers market when you can go to walmart.


Actually there are a lot of people that would favor the farmers market. 
Then there are those that grow their own. 

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/tweety4926/2013 garden/P1010865_zps9aa1a655.jpg

But yes, there are those that want to buy with price being the biggest factor. Are the cheapest bees worth the savings? Maybe, Maybe not. It all depends on how you handle them once you get them.

(Don't mean to argue with you FlowerPlanter)


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> Busy guy, I'd imagine.


I got a lot done today. What did you do? Oh yeah that's right your post is 10 times longer than mine.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Acebird said:


> I got a lot done today. What did you do? Oh yeah that's right your post is 10 times longer than mine.


_*Slave driver*_-

OK, I'll get back to work. Got a new load of salvaged wood to unload & hoard.


http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1100704_zps8izyxsee.jpg

I don't sell honey, but it makes GREAT trading material  Especially if you put it in those half gallon Crown Royal bottles.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/...926001/2014 bee pics/P1210020_zpsjjl28038.jpg

You know what you need to do this? (Besides a friend who likes to drink & saves you his empties) I swear I don't touch the stuff! 

Requeen those packages & Learn to overwinter your colonies so you actually _Have_ honey to trade & play with.


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> For as long as I have been reading Beesource there has been a constant theme of people saying how terrible package bees are, which are described as bred not to live, etc. While at the same time extolling the virtues of "local mutts", which tend to be described as hardy, tough, survivors.
> 
> The anomaly in this situation being that every year people keep buying these terrible package bees, and paying big bucks for them.
> 
> Something doesn't seem to add up. Is there a message in this?


That there aren't enough nucs produced to meet the demand. That beginners don't yet know enough to weigh the pros and cons(what's the first thing that pops up when beginners search for bees?). Then there are people that buy them because its what they've always done, and replacing bees every couple years is normal to them.

I see benefits to packages in some certain situations, I'm more concerned about the nationwide genetic bottlenecking that comes from only a handleful of queen rearing operations providing the majority of queens.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Lauri said:


> Anyone buying bees this year might want to _consider_ the findings in this study:
> 
> http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE10-694&y=2010&t=1


This is even worse that I thought and confirms what I said about packages bee/queen being inferior.
"28% survivability of the conventional package bees"
Who would want them? Better odds at Vegas.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Honey-4-All said:


> Brian.... Still at a loss as to what exactly you are asking.


I am trying to get you to tell me the time line for the trucking of bee packages from CA to Utica,NY without me guessing what happens.

So here is my guess: 
Mr Olivareze has a crew that wakes up early one day in CA and starts the shaking operations. Any bee in any box, it doesn't matter. They grab a queen from somewhere and slap it in a cage, maybe throw a few bugs in with her. Add a can of syrup and nail up the box shut. Stack it on a skid and load it on a truck. Now does it take a day or thee days to get the truck loaded before it can go on its marry way? So two days maybe three to cross the country. Now what? The truck driver calls MannLake and says I here! Meanwhile I am racing down the pike to Wilks Barre trying to find where the heck this truck is. OK, I found the truck. Where is all the paperwork cuss I got to find out from Mr Mann Lake which bees are mine. Two hours later the hand shakes are over and I am racing back to Utica. When I am finally home I am exhausted and it is way past wine thirty and I haven't eaten so I am hangry. After dinner and two ****tails there ain't no way I am messing with these bees tonight in the pitch dark so it looks like first thing tomorrow I will install the bees into my equipment if they aren't dead. Now this only cost me 119 bucks for the bees and 200 bucks in travel expenses.
Who in their right mind would want to do this?

So if you would be so kind and tell me the real scenario of package bees.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Purchased 100 New Zealand Package bees ( Arataki ) in April of last year, installed them on 6-8 drawn combs and fed them properly and only had a few queen problems, some was shipping problems like broken queen cages in the tube or dead queen in the cage, other then that the packages drew out 12-14 new deep frames and had 7 frames of brood (collectively) before blueberry pollination at the end of May. They came back 2X stronger in the 3 weeks they were out and had swarm cells in the 2nd deep, Very nice bees and they grew strong and yes I had swarms, My error, I didn't have enough time to manage them because of my regular day job at the time. I had some weakened a lot from it and I just combined them the same as any other hive would be, I won't waste resources on colonies that don't have time to rebuild.
I checked on a yard of bees today and 100% are alive, ALL of them were packages, I even used a Video Scope to look at them, they are tucked in nicely near the bottom of the 2 deeps, lots of feed left.
PACKAGE Bees are NOT a solution, they are an alternative and it has been talked about to death as to why it isn't sustainable to keep buying them if you can make nucs, so if a beekeeper doesn't like packages, don't buy them, end of story. 
I purchased the 100 packages to make a fast increase for pollination rentals, I won't be buying them this year, we are wintering around 40% increase of our production sized colonies as nucs and will continue to do so for as long as we are in business, as I see it we winter our increases at 40% mostly for the losses we MIGHT incur , 10% in Summer and 30% in winter leaving a 10% increase from nucs.
Nova Scotia only imports from New Zealand and Australia and they come as packages, Obviously you know the US boarder is closed for packages and nucs, we can buy queens but have to have an import permit with health checks.

I will know more on the survival rate in a month or 2


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Treatment free often comes from feral stock. Sources can be found if you look hard enough. They always seem sell out quick.


Lack of supply?

How can that be?


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## jvalentour (Sep 4, 2014)

Brian,
If you want to know the timeline, call Mr. Oliverez. I did and was pleased with his comments. Ordered 5 packages. Then ordered 5 queens from a local supplier associated with Ohio State University to requeen with. 
I'm a second year beek. I did my homework to give myself the best outcome possible. 
It's beekeeping, not rocket science.
Good luck, Enjoy your bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Now this only cost me 119 bucks for the bees and 200 bucks in travel expenses.
> Who in their right mind would want to do this?


Ace I read your description with some amusement, you do have a sense of humor, and it was pretty funny.

But really if that kind of drama is the price of non intervention beekeeping, could you be persuaded to rethink? It may be less work and cheaper, to actually open the hives and intervene from time to time, in such a way to ensure they are fit to go into winter, plus make your own sensible increase as required?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

jvalentour said:


> Brian,
> If you want to know the timeline, call Mr. Oliverez. I did and was pleased with his comments. Ordered 5 packages. Then ordered 5 queens from a local supplier associated with Ohio State University to requeen with.
> I'm a second year beek. I did my homework to give myself the best outcome possible.
> It's beekeeping, not rocket science.
> Good luck, Enjoy your bees.


Olivarez has some good bees so I don't understand this approach


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> I really dug into the dead outs, it looks like in all four hives, the queen failed late in the season. I even found a queen cell with a dead queen inside. I think the failures happened really late, after the drones quit flying. When I closed up in November, everything seemed fine.


This description is not consistent with queen failure as the only cause. Did you look into the position and size of the cluster when they died? Were they on honey? did they have patches of brood to cover? Was there evidence of nosema?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Acebird said:


> I got a lot done today. What did you do? Oh yeah that's right your post is 10 times longer than mine.


My main goal today was to not be a mechanical engineer who suggests people place five gallon buckets of water on things during a hurricane. So far; so good. But it isn't quite bedtime yet, so there is always a chance I'll fail.



Fusion_power said:


> This description is not consistent with queen failure as the only cause. Did you look into the position and size of the cluster when they died? Were they on honey? did they have patches of brood to cover? Was there evidence of nosema?


What would a typical queen failure look like as a winter dead out?


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> But really if that kind of drama is the price of non intervention beekeeping, could you be persuaded to rethink?



Buying bees is non intervention beekeeping?

Non-intervention beekeeping is when a beekeeper hears a about a swarm clustering on a branch a mile away, 
grabs a hive body or nuc box and puts it in the car, 
Makes a mad dash to the site of the swarm, 
Grabs the box from the car and sets it under the swarm, 

then sits on it watching the bees...

_*...not intervening!*_


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

I have a friend that shakes quite a few packages every year and sells them around the valley.
There have been a few years in which members of the Willamette Valley Beekeepers Association would order their packages from him and he would ask me if I would dispense them.
Sooooo, i would drive over and load up a pickup load of packages, drive home and then folks would arrive to pick up their packages.
My friend included a information sheet with each package with critical installation instructions that I handed out as well.
BUT, I was asked to carefully, and slowly go over the part about queen introduction and do my best to make sure that it was crystal clear.
And that's what I did. 
And even after all of that, a hand full of package recipients, EVERY YEAR would call in a panic 5 or 6 days later:
"I don't think I have a queen!" or, "I had a queen and now she's gone!" or some variety of that.

So I ask, (already knowing the answer) "How do you know anything about your queen at this time?"

"Well, I went in on the 2nd day and couldn't find her, same on the 3rd and fourth..........."

"Do you have the sheet that we went over when you picked up your package?" I asked
"Let's read it again together", "DO NOT POKE A HOLE IN THE CANDY PLUG!! Pull the cork that exposes the candy. Hang the cage dead center from the top bar between frames in the hive. etc. etc, etc.............
.....after the feeder is filled with syrup, close the hive and DO NOT DISTURB IT IN ANY WAY FOR AT LEAST TEN DAYS other than to very quietly slide the lid aside and refill the feeder every couple of days. Do not touch frames for any reason for at least 10 days!"

And then here comes the old recording, "But I wanted to make sure the queen was released" they all would say.
After all, they read that in several books.

So, after they handed me another 25 bucks and I handed them a new queen, we read through and discussed queen introduction again.
I guess, "You can always afford to do it right the SECOND time!" 

I'm really glad I offered to help my friend with his packages because it taught me one very big lesson:
I will NEVER sell packages to the public. What a pain!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Harry,

Ever notice that there seems to be an unending supply of folks bent on bemusing both their supplier and queen to death on their first queen introduction attempt no matter what instructions are given? . The fact that they have just reduced a likely 95% acceptance rate down to the 50 percentile doesn't seem to deter many people from being hell bent on following "what I saw on YouTube" instead of what you recomend. If I had a dime for every time I've heard that story I'd be richer the old man Rockefeller ever was.:s


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> What would a typical queen failure look like as a winter dead out?


Most of the time, a failing queen does not die, she stops laying, usually at a critical point in hive development. If the queen fails in the fall, then it should be detectable as absence of brood or not enough brood to produce a winter cluster. When Matt stated that he checked them for mites in the fall and did a pre-winter check to ensure they were healthy before closing up for winter, that is a key that tells me that queen failure was probably not the only cause of problems. The description that one colony had a developed queen cell with a dead queen is consistent with a failing queen. The other three colonies that failed would be more consistent with a colony heavily infected with nosema that went into winter unable to maintain the cluster properly and failed as a result. Please note that I am not saying nosema was the cause. I am saying that a generic "queen failed" diagnosis is rarely entirely accurate.


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## jvalentour (Sep 4, 2014)

JRG13, see post 52.
Olivarez does have good bees.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Acebird said:


> Who in their right mind would want to do this?


Would that be:

1. Produce and sell packages to disgruntled wannabees?
2. Purchase bees that we taken care of in such a delightful manner they not only survived a 2000 mile trip but look slicker than Katie Perry on Superbowl Sunday?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> Most of the time, a failing queen does not die, she stops laying, usually at a critical point in hive development. If the queen fails in the fall, then it should be detectable as absence of brood or not enough brood to produce a winter cluster. When Matt stated that he checked them for mites in the fall and did a pre-winter check to ensure they were healthy before closing up for winter, that is a key that tells me that queen failure was probably not the only cause of problems. The description that one colony had a developed queen cell with a dead queen is consistent with a failing queen. The other three colonies that failed would be more consistent with a colony heavily infected with nosema that went into winter unable to maintain the cluster properly and failed as a result. Please note that I am not saying nosema was the cause. I am saying that a generic "queen failed" diagnosis is rarely entirely accurate.


Thank you much, Fusion_Power!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jvalentour said:


> Brian,
> If you want to know the timeline, call Mr. Oliverez. I did and was pleased with his comments. Ordered 5 packages.


Did you order them from Mr Oliverez or from an outlets store (I guess people call them distributors)? We already know the bees are spent when you get them. They have been working almonds for a month and if the queens have to be replaced then why bother. Split your own bees and add the queens. That is not rocket science is it?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> could you be persuaded to rethink? It may be less work and cheaper, to actually open the hives and intervene from time to time, in such a way to ensure they are fit to go into winter, plus make your own sensible increase as required?


I know now what to look for and what advice to follow better than I did before so I am more hopeful of success although a cycle of three years non intervention before replacing a hive is acceptable to me. Many folks subscribing to full intervention cannot get through the first winter so I don't feel bad. Maybe you do.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

HarryVanderpool said:


> So, after they handed me another 25 bucks and I handed them a new queen, we read through and discussed queen introduction again.
> I guess, "You can always afford to do it right the SECOND time!"
> 
> I'm really glad I offered to help my friend with his packages because it taught me one very big lesson:
> I will NEVER sell packages to the public. What a pain!


Someone who can produce a product that they know the customer will break and come back and buy another one has it made in the shade.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

FWIW- As a newbee, in 2010, I started 3 Ga. pkgs. 2 of them and severals splits are still going. In 2011, I got 3 Ga. pkgs. All 3, plus several splits, are still going. They've been through Ohio winters with below 0F temps. Of course, I have needed to intervene some.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Acebird said:


> We already know the bees are spent when you get them. They have been working almonds for a month and if the queens have to be replaced then why bother. Split your own bees and add the queens. That is not rocket science is it?


Ace...... Get ready to be shot down by yourself if your willing........... 

The following might seem a little harsh but needs to be said: 

I think you really need to spend two months in California. Doing so would help you tell the truth when posting here. You could share what actually happens and not type out some wild conjecture based solely on some delusionally demented imagination brain wave spurts bouncing around inside you head. 




Here is the real scenario you will find not only at my place but at OHB's and others:

1.When a hive goes into the almonds by February 10 it will generally have 6- 10 frames of bees. Some less. some more..

2.In mid March ( end of the almond bloom) we will go and snag a couple of pounds for grafting and making up mating nucs. 

3.At the next point ( first week of April) when we go into the hives there are 6-10 frames of hatching brood with about 15 to 18 frames of bees . We shake another 4-5 pounds out of them for packages.

4. Tons of bees are continually hatching so we repeat step 3 towards the end of April when the previous 4 pounds have been replaced by all that newly hatched brood. 

5.May 1st rolls around and I do my annual "kick myself dance" for not making 100% of my own splits up two weeks earlier instead of stealing all the package people's money!. 


Would you please tell me how you figure that the bees going into the packages happen have spent a month flying in the almonds when at least 80% of them have hatched since the boxes were put into the orchards?

Unless you have seen it happen for 35 years like I have I think you have no clue as to what a powerful build up agent the almonds can be if the weather cooperates. ( 9 out of 10 years) 

It will turn two and a half framers into full boxes in 6 weeks.........




Your logic and timeline are all messed up. Simple as that.

Unless you are willing to sit down ,shut up, and watch it happen yourself I would suggest keeping your clap trap shut about what happens especially when spouting off about burned up almond foragers constituting the majority of the bees within the package bees produced in California! Just ain't so!!!!!!!!!!


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

When ACE says package bees are spent he's correct in the fact that when the package arrives at its final destination quite a few of the bees are already dead from old age (it is considered acceptable to have 20% dead) the remaining bees are not getting any younger every day they sit in transit.
Then if you have a queen problem (which seem to be a very common occurrence) you have a very limited time to fix it before you’re out of bees.

Yet more reasons not to get a package.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

FlowerPlanter said:


> When ACE says package bees are spent he's correct in the fact that when the package arrives at its final destination quite a few of the bees are already dead from old age (it is considered acceptable to have 20% dead) the remaining bees are not getting any younger every day they sit in transit.
> Then if you have a queen problem (which seem to be a very common occurrence) you have a very limited time to fix it before you’re out of bees.
> 
> Yet more reasons not to get a package.


Are you serious in saying that 20% is an acceptable number of dead bees in a package. If I showed up with packages in hand at a delivery and found 20% dead I would either go home with them or commit suicide. Seriously? 

When I see more than a dozen dead ones on the bottom of the box I have a heart attack. 

Anyone accepting that as ok needs to reevaluate their tolerance level for garbage.



FYI with team drivers those "old packages" can get from hive to hive in less than 3 days when traveling from California to ML in Pennsylvania. I've seen swarms jump off of fence posts after hanging around a week and still shine like the sun when its all said and done. 3 or 4 days isn't an issue with proper care enroute.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Honey-4-All said:


> I think you really need to spend two months in California. Doing so would help you tell the truth when posting here. You could share what actually happens and not type out some wild conjecture based solely on some delusionally demented imagination brain wave spurts bouncing around inside you head.


What fun would that be?

Honey-4 All, it took a lot of poking and prodding to get you to tell me how it is done (in your experience). I thank you for that. Yes, I know nothing about the whole scenario which is why I asked in the first place. Now I know your method. I am not convinced all packages are done the way you described or there wouldn't be this negativity (maybe just hobbyist) on what they get. It still appears that a local nuc is a better deal for me.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Honey-4-All said:


> Are you serious in saying that 20% is an acceptable number of dead bees in a package.
> 
> Anyone accepting that as ok needs to reevaluate their tolerance level for garbage.


So your saying 20% dead from a package is unacceptable.

What would you say about a 72% death rate over winter packages? (See Lauri's link from above)

Maybe that's why;



Oldtimer said:


> For as long as I have been reading Beesource there has been a constant theme of people saying how terrible package bees are, which are described as bred not to live, etc. While at the same time extolling the virtues of "local mutts", which tend to be described as hardy, tough, survivors.
> 
> The anomaly in this situation being that every year people keep buying these terrible package bees, and paying big bucks for them.



People still shop at Walmart by the millions.

Exactly people need to "reevaluate their tolerance level for garbage."


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I know now what to look for and what advice to follow better than I did before so I am more hopeful of success although a cycle of three years non intervention before replacing a hive is acceptable to me.


Oh that's good to hear Ace, and yes you are right, going on what is often said anyway, a 3 year lifespan TF is doing OK for you.
Having read a lot of your posts in the earlier days, I think a barrier for you working in the brood nest was just the physical difficulty of getting things apart after they have been propolised etc. So while you have the opportunity with no bees, it would be a great opportunity to scrape and clean the frames to try to make the hive workable once there are bees back in there.



Acebird said:


> Many folks subscribing to full intervention cannot get through the first winter so I don't feel bad. Maybe you do.


This brings up a philosophical question, should newbees who still have a lot to learn, intervene?
I believe we all want to learn, the fact we are here on Beesource says that about each of us. For a beginner, opening the hive means he could do something wrong, kill the queen, or whatever, plus, he does not necessarily fully understand what he is looking at and therefore know what actions to take. However, opening the hive is how to learn and in my view a beginner beekeeper should be encouraged to do that as often as possible, it's also part of the joy of owning bees. He will likely make some screw ups yes. But that is the cost of his tuition, and a necessary one.
What is great about chat sites like this one is no one is alone any more. If someone opens a hive and is not sure what happens next, they can come here and ask. Preferably with pics if need be.

So my opinion is those beeks who intervened but lost the bees first season, did not have a total loss long as they learned something, and especially if they were able to figure out what went wrong and not repeat it, that's huge.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Split your own bees and add the queens. That is not rocket science is it?


Splits are not always the answer Ace. If a honey producer has dead outs he does not always have the luxury of making splits to replace them. He needs package bees in the boxes by April or he will miss the main nectar flow. 

If you do splits in the spring to replace the dead outs you could experience a double loss of honey production, especially in an area with a heavy but short nectar flow. Not only will the split not be ready for the main flow, but the donor colony will produce less honey due to the bees and brood that were taken from it for the split. It might not matter that much to you or I, but someone making a living on producing honey .... it's money right out of their pocket.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Oh that's good to hear Ace, and yes you are right, going on what is often said anyway, a 3 year lifespan TF is doing OK for you.


That is *IF *he has been telling the truth. I don't think we can assume that.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> I think a barrier for you working in the brood nest was just the physical difficulty of getting things apart after they have been propolised etc.


I think it still will be an issue.



> So while you have the opportunity with no bees, it would be a great opportunity to scrape and clean the frames to try to make the hive workable once there are bees back in there.


Just so you know I scrap and clean the boxes and frames before they are put on the hive. And as I said in an other thread I remove the bottom box and clean it if need be in the spring time. So there is only about three medium boxes in the spring that don't get cleaned. Then when I split by the box two or three weeks later the top bars are cleaned and maybe some of the bottom bars without removing the frames. Much of my equipment is Betterbee boxes and frames so the beespace should be correct. The boxes I built I copied the internal dimensions so they should be correct. My bees just like to build burr comb. After saying this, this year there was much less burr comb on the hives that died out on me. It is not proof of anything but it the bees want to build the comb and live I am happy letting them do that even if it make it more difficult for me when I do have to dig into the hive.



> This brings up a philosophical question, should newbees who still have a lot to learn, intervene?


It seems like with bees even after 10 years you still have a lot to learn so in my view (only as a hobbyist) not intervening and taking it slow is a better way. If you can diagnose a problem with photos/videos over the internet then I can take my time learning from someone else's mistakes who is digging in all the time. It will just take me longer. And trust me I know the value of making the mistake yourself as opposed to learning from someone else's mistakes.
I believe we all want to learn, the fact we are here on Beesource says that about each of us. For a beginner, opening the hive means he could do something wrong, kill the queen, or whatever, plus, he does not necessarily fully understand what he is looking at and therefore know what actions to take. However, opening the hive is how to learn and in my view a beginner beekeeper should be encouraged to do that as often as possible, it's also part of the joy of owning bees. He will likely make some screw ups yes. But that is the cost of his tuition, and a necessary one.
[/QUOTE]


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> If a honey producer has dead outs he does not always have the luxury of making splits to replace them. He needs package bees in the boxes by April or he will miss the main nectar flow.


Mike a honey producer is not paying top dollar and driving to Wilks Barre to pick up one or two packages. They would be out of business if their replacement costs were that high.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Mike a honey producer is not paying top dollar and driving to Wilks Barre to pick up one or two packages. They would be out of business if their replacement costs were that high.


Guess I misunderstood your suggestion for package buyers ...


> "Split your own bees and add the queens. That is not rocket science is it?".


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Mike a honey producer is not paying top dollar and driving to Wilks Barre to pick up one or two packages. They would be out of business if their replacement costs were that high.


It depends on the location and type of management. Some people able to buy packages each Spring, install them on drawn comb, make a honey crop, and sell the bees in the fall. Some people can't do that or don't want to, therefore they either have back hives or know someone locally that can provide them with some.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Guess I misunderstood your suggestion for package buyers ...


My suggestion was certainly not for someone who is making a living on bees. What I say, suggest has nothing to do with someone making a living on bees. Isn't that common knowledge by now? Can we get past this?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> What I say, suggest has nothing to do with someone making a living on bees.


I agree 100%




Acebird said:


> Can we get past this?


Yep, it's in the rear view mirror.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

*WILL AWAYS BUY PACKAGES*

100% production from package bees. Why fix something if it isn't broken. :scratch:


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

SRatcliff said:


> Some people able to buy packages each Spring, *install them on drawn comb*, make a honey crop


Had a repeat customer call today about getting more packages in 2015. Last year was his first year with bees. Central Montana. He purchased two three pounders. Followed my instructions about feeding the snot out of them from the git go. All new equipment. Said he made over three gallons of honey. Not a lot but not bad for a newbee on foundation. BTW the bees are both on a roll as of a few days back. I recommended he do a mite test when it warms up as he said all he did to get out of the treatment free crowd was feed in the fall. 


It is possible to make a crop off of packages on foundation........... contrary to what some people say.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

And a word from our very own MP:


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks Barry for bringing this clip up!
Lots of wisdom, right there in just 5 or so minutes...
He's not pointing any fingers...he calls them as they are.
There is an inherent problem with the packages he says...well, with "these" packages...times are a changing and the good ole times when package use was a simple, straightforward routine, is not here any more. For the droves of folks starting...but not only.
And. Another point he states so clear...if you are gonna get a package, then you'll need to be prepared to intervene, especially in that Northern tier...that ever, life saving/life giving frame of emerging brood, again and again coming into focus. But if you just gonna start...and have no other hives to use as a backup resource provider...then what? 
Rhetorical question...but really.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Check, check and check again. Boy does MP really nail it in that clip. Before we were migratory we used to shake lots of packages each spring to keep our numbers up (pre varroa btw). One of the great frustrations was that phenomena, that Mike speaks of here, where the queen initially starts laying but the hive seems to get dissatisfied with her and kills her. My assumption (and Mike's too) is that the lack of young bees puts the hive in an unnatural balance and the bees instinctively blame the queen for the lack of young bees. Yes, a frame of capped brood a couple weeks after installation helps greatly in restoring the balance but too often, I'm afraid those brood resources aren't always available. 
In most conditions we would direct release the queens in an effort to speed up the egg laying process. The tricky part, though, is to get them in quietly without the queen flying on you. We like to replace the cork with a little granulated honey and hang the cage in the center of the box assuming it was warm enough that the bees were rapidly moving up onto the comb. Then stay the heck away for a couple of weeks assuming they had ample feed. 
I don't want this to sound like an indictment of package bee and queen producers who I feel do there very best to produce a quality product but I would agree, based on my past experience, that northern beekeepers can get caught on something of a package treadmill. Perhaps it could be referred to as planned obsolescence to a degree. They typically just don't winter very well at least in the open prairies of the Dakotas. Oddly enough, we had much better wintering success in the more frigid but more heavily wooded area of central Minnesota. I finally got off the treadmill when we got palletized and began raising all our own bees. It's become, probably, the most common business model in commercial beekeeping for pretty good reason.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> My assumption (and Mike's too) is that the lack of young bees puts the hive in an unnatural balance and the bees instinctively blame the queen for the lack of young bees.


Your hypotheses makes sense but wouldn't the situation be much worse on a split that raises their own queen. And, if the bees follow through on the supercedure, again their situations is going to be worse. Mike's video has got me thinking though. Supplying brood or nurse bees on a weekly basis should give a huge advantage to the queenless half of a split.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

That was a good video  Some good suggestions. Like always, there are a lot of things a person can do it _improve your odds for success_. I've been using that phrase quite a bit, but in my opinion, it fits a lot of situations.

My own personal experience, with no other resources to draw from in the beginning, was that the package bees I purchased & requeened all lived and overwintered. The nucs I purchased, did not. The nuc queens were so good looking I didn't replace them. It was a mistake. If I had given them a brood break and new genetics bred for my climate, they probably would have all overwinterd easily. That was my $1800.00 lesson I'll share with you. 

Luckily, with information mostly from reading a this forum, I was able to over winter my colonies successfully from then on and never had to buy bees again.

My comments always reflect my own experience and my post are only intended to help others avoid the mistakes I have made, or share ideas that have worked well for me. Anytime I tell you what I'd do, it's because that is exactly what I did to rectify the problems I faced that also that plague a lot of beekeepers.

I'll refer to Acebirds previous post #52

*If *this was actually true, _Who in their right mind would want to do this?_

Well, if it was all a big surprise, folks would of course be ticked.
If is was expected so folks could prepare to handle it to the best of their ability, it wouldn't be such an issue. Accepted as a necessary process and make the best of it.


Helping people understand the challenges of commercial beekeepers will help them understand what to expect from the product and how to manage it once they've got it. 

Trying to educate new beekeepers about potential issues? 

That's when it can get touchy and folks on ether side can get defensive. 
Bottom line is, consumers many times expect a perfect product, which isn't realistic, considering the entire aspect of the nature of the bees and conditions. 

Producers do the best they can with what they have to work with. 
There's go to be some understanding between both if everyone is going to be satisfied.

I also like the quote:
"You usually get the experience you need...right After you need it"
New beekeepers are pretty much intimidated about everything when they start out. But if you want to get the experience you need, you've got to dive in to get it.

Yup, you will do it on _your_ dollar. But if you consider your first couple colonies an _education expense_, you might just be more prepared for the outcome-even if it includes a poor result, the experience you've gained from that can be invlauable.

Because I have so many colonies now, I can do many things considered risky..just to see what happens. I rarely have a poor result. Most of the time I am almost astonished at the positive impact. 


Those are the things I share with YOU.

I don't have the experience of many beekeepers here on Beesource.

But I _do_ have _some_ experience now, yet am still new enough to remember how difficult it was when you first start out.

Ask me how much I've learned in the last couple years. 
I'd be nowhere if I had been afraid of taking the first step.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Many years ago, I had the job of training people to run a certain very complex machine.
Every time I was given a new trainee, and after introducing myself, I would turn my back to the machine, look them in the eye and say, "This machine was engineered 100% perfect. If you have problems or run into difficulty of any kind with this machine, be aware that it is 100% operator error."
Some people had a really hard time accepting that.
In fact, that statement was insulting to some.
Privately, I viewed that as a character flaw.
But regardless; those that took the time and the interest to learn how to properly set up and run the machine had absolutely no problems what so ever.

Package bees are not 100% perfect.
However I still try to approach things with an attitude of personal responsibility.
When things go wrong, and I don't find and fix them in a timely manner, it is my fault.

Every year I start up a few dozen hives from packages that I shake for myself.
If there actually is a problem with one or two of them; who should I blame?

The guy that shook the packages? (me)
The guy that transported the packages? (me)
The guy that installed the packages? (me)
The guy that monitored them through full strength? (me)

Take your pick. Packages are not 100% perfect. But In my operation, if anything fails with them it is 100% beekeeper error.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> Because I have so many colonies now, I can do many things considered risky..just to see what happens. I rarely have a poor result. Most of the time I am almost astonished at the positive impact.


Personally I think having so many colonies is the real reason one learns so fast. But not everyone can have so many colonies or wants so many colonies. Surely digging in is required but digging in to two colonies for five years is no where near the same as digging into 500 when it comes to not repeating mistakes.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Some people had a really hard time accepting that.


After building many of these types of machines I would too.


> In fact, that statement was insulting to some.


I would expect it would be insulting to all. People can think machines cannot.

I trained operators to their ability and in most cases their ability far out reached what they though they could do. My technique was to remove intimidation not to create it. Learn slowly at their pace. No machine is 100% perfect not one I designed or one anyone else designed.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Personally I think having so many colonies is the real reason one learns so fast. But not everyone can have so many colonies or wants so many colonies. Surely digging in is required but digging in to two colonies for five years is no where near the same as digging into 500 when it comes to not repeating mistakes.


Exactly. I see patterns I would have entirely missed with just a few hives. That really helped when I needed to determine just what the issue was and rectify it. 

I also have enough spares to see first hand how my management methods work in extreme conditions. 

The last couple fall/winters I could have really _used_ some dead outs to distribute frames to other colonies. I rarely have any losses and have to leave empty feeders in to take up room -or install a couple new un drawn frames in fall which I didn't want to do. 
Being forced to leave the feeders in all winter ended up being a good move, and is a practice I still use today. The bees overwinter with them just fine and they are always in the smaller hives for easy access & use. 

It's been an amazing experience. With just a few hives I'd never get the knowledge I've gotten with 100-200. That sounds like a high number of hives,but when you look at them it doesn't seem like that many. When I have to feed them on a timely schedule though, I sure seems like hundreds.

I started out with 7 nucs my first year. A couple to leave alone and a couple to dig into and learn on. I came out of the winter with 7-10 hives or so. Second year I bought packages and nucs to increase my numbers. From then on I was totally self sufficient. I've grown much larger than I planned, but am just rolling with it & the resulting opportunities seem to be available everywhere.

The more I know, The more I realize I still have a lot to learn. Equalization is something I'm getting better at. Equalization or harvesting resources_without_ risk or detriment to the contributing colony. In fact making that harvest beneficial to the colony. Such as taking the early first frames of capped brood out to make up spring nucs. Removing many of the breeding mites within the large colony and giving that nuc a capped queen cell & brood break to reduce mite levels within that colony and my entire yard.


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## Learner (Jan 17, 2015)

HarryVanderpool said:


> ...after the feeder is filled with syrup, close the hive and DO NOT DISTURB IT IN ANY WAY FOR AT LEAST TEN DAYS other than to very quietly slide the lid aside and refill the feeder every couple of days. Do not touch frames for any reason for at least 10 days!"


To be honest, as a newbie, things are very confusing. There are a lot of different opinions about everything. For instance, some say don't hang the queen cage between frames but use a rubber band to attach it to a frame. Some say, don't keep the cage in as it messes up with the combs so just leave the queen at the bottom of the hive. And some say "if you leave the queen cage in there, make sure you extract it 3 days after the installation". 
Now, I'm just speculating but I'm pretty sure your instructions were just one of many that beginners heard that day (or season). .


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

A reason for that, is that often there is more than one way to do something and get reasonable success, say, 90%.

What happens on chat sites is someone tried something and it failed, so they say don't do that, instead do this. They are unaware they just got unlucky, most times it works.

Or people try several ways with just a few hives, one worked better so to them that's it. 

Most disagreement on Beesource is really just that. Although having said that occasionally something is said that is just plain wrong.

For a newbee if confused, probably best to inquire, in some depth, about a persons reasons for something, and if it is based on experience and real life success, and also, not just a one off experience.

For example, the package queen introduction methods you mentioned in your post, there are reasons people would do all those, but there are also downsides, ie, there are pros and cons to each of them. In fact me, I would not use any of those methods. But the thing would be to ask each of those people their specific reasons, you can then make an informed decision which is going to best work in your own circumstances.


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## Learner (Jan 17, 2015)

_(I apologize for an off-topic side step)_



HarryVanderpool said:


> Many years ago, I had the job of training people to run a certain very complex machine.
> Every time I was given a new trainee, and after introducing myself, I would turn my back to the machine, look them in the eye and say, "This machine was engineered 100% perfect. If you have problems or run into difficulty of any kind with this machine, be aware that it is 100% operator error."
> Some people had a really hard time accepting that.


 It's usually not that simple. If you haven't, I'd recommend you to read "The Field Guide to Understanding Human Error".


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Learner said:


> To be honest, as a newbie, things are very confusing. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I was in your shoes a couple yrs ago, and quite frankly ALOT of things are still confusing at times....... My suggestion is join a bee club find a mentor that is successful , and do what he does and is successful with......because when you do something based off of some " hairbrained ****amamie idea off the internet " He's the one that is going to look you in the eye a weird way and wonder why you did what you did......... With that said, don't be afraid to continue learning here and asking questions and trying new things out, because if we all followed exactly what those before us did, we would be no better than them and we would all still be trying to catch swarms as they leave a skept.


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## Learner (Jan 17, 2015)

Thank you. 

I agree. . A mentor would be great and I'm certainly going to ask around as I'm attending classes organized by the local beekeeper's association. I'm also thinking about talking to the other newbie participants to maybe start things together or at least get together to share ideas, experiences etc.

I'm totally freaked out about packages, now. It looks like beekeeping is already much harder than it was 10-15 years ago so if I can get a few little helpers on my side I'd be happy. I just found a local beekeeper who sells nucs. I'm going to start my 2 hives with nucs if he has two for me. They are more expensive but I'd like to increase my odds as I'll be investing more than just money in this.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Learner said:


> It's usually not that simple. If you haven't, I'd recommend you to read "The Field Guide to Understanding Human Error".


Thank you for the book recommendation.
Without having read the book yet, let me say that just the title points to the problem.
Human error.
The engineering principle to designing a perfect machine includes the elimination of "Human error" as much as possible.
Or "idiot proof" as is often said.
I was speaking of certain machinery that requires following procedure 100% by the operator.
What if the operator follows procedure 98% of the time? What about less.
Then we start to hear the blame game blather, " This stupid machine.....etc...."
Follow procedure and run the machine AS DESIGNED and it will run AS DESIGNED.
Of course, some "engineers" are happy to accept their glitchy contraptions as acceptable.

Regardless, beekeeping is not perfection or 100% anything.
But there is one thing I can control, and that is my attitude.
When things fail in my packages, it's my fault.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Learner said:


> I'm totally freaked out about packages, now.


When I started reading this thread, I was afraid some would feel the way you do. That's why I posted some info. other wise I would have stayed out of it.

I found Packages extremly easy to install, even with no experience. You don't have to worry about rolling the queen as you do when you install a nuc. Especially a big fat well populated sticky nuc. 

See. Now I've scared you about nucs too. You'll soon find out it isn't hard. 

I remember handling my first nuc. I'd never taken any lessons, had no mentor and had never been around bees at all. 
When I pulled it out of the truck, it barely thumped down a scant 1/2" from the bed to the tail gate. The roar from the angry bees in the nuc was intimidating.... I just gave them a minute and moved slowly. It was fine, but a little scary at first.


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## Learner (Jan 17, 2015)

Lauri said:


> See. Now I've scared you about nucs too.


Thanks Lauri. This really makes my life easier, now .

All joking aside, I think I understand where you are going with your comments. I'll see with the nucs. If I can't find any local ones, then a local beekeeper is supposed to have packages with _"hybrid VSH (varroa sensitive hygiene) Carniolan/Italian queens that are highly sensitized to Colorado."_ I'd go with 2 of such packages, and I'll do my very best .


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

when I installed my first package, I was so nervous if someone shoved a lump of coal up my rear I would have farted diamonds. I was installing in a topbar hive and I didn't want to hang the cage. luckily I had enough forthought to put a "starter bar" in a nuc about 3 days earlier so I had a place for the queen to start laying as soon as possible and had a nice straight comb guide so I direct released her. To top it off it was raining lightly which is not the best of times to be messin with bees, but they had already been in the mail for something like 5 days ( if I remember correctly) I didn't even have a bee suit yet lol. I did manage to take a few stings to the hands ( no gloves ) when I was trying to put the bars back..... but looking back now.... It couldn't have gone any better under the circumstances and I'm not sure I would have done anything differently so study up best you can, get a buddy or mentor to help when it's time and trust that you will know what to do when the time comes.... YOU GOT THIS!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Follow procedure and run the machine AS DESIGNED and it will run AS DESIGNED.
> Of course, some "engineers" are happy to accept their glitchy contraptions as acceptable.


I think the nearest to perfection a machine could get is today's automobile and yet they all don't run as designed.

Bees don't need perfection they can make up for beekeeper mistakes and they can also screw up when the beekeeper does everything right. Let's not loose sight that beekeepers are not designing perfect machines.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Not to keep this thread going or keep Brian from having the last word...But:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the alternative of _trapping Swarms_ yet. 

If I ever needed bees again, I'd have swarm traps everywhere I thought _good_ bees may be living. I know I've read quite a few comments from overseas about the 'Americans buying packages' and how ridiculous that sounded to them. 










Just thought I'd mention it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned the alternative of _trapping Swarms_ yet.


I have yet to be successful at this. There must be a trick to it.

Not trying to get the last word.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I'd say swarm trapping requires some _intervention_.  And thats no trick.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Nothing like a good swarm to brighten up the day and increase colonies.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah, sure hope I stumble back up on a few of these this spring.....Caught em, never trapped or lured em, gonna try this spring though.......... G


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## BigGun (Oct 27, 2011)

I'm going to donate my two cents worth. I don't think I will ever buy nor will I suggest anyone buy a package. Ill list why. Our club bought two packages neither made it half way thru winter. Buddy of mine bought two, neither made it thru summer. A club member bought a single package and it requeened all summer. Every inspection there were queen cells along with all stages of brood. That was last year. This year it produced a total of one super of honey in an excellent spot. From the others I hear about there is an 80% failure rate here for packages. Nucs however fail about 30%.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Well if everyone is throwing in a couple cents here's mine. I will buy them every time. I have minimal problems with them. The secret is to keep an eye on them.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Haraga said:


> The secret is to keep an eye on them.


I don't want to keep an eye on them and most newbies don't know how to keep and eye on them. The discussion keeps pointing to newbies are the problem with packages yet you still want newbies to buy them and that makes me wonder why.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Acebird said:


> I don't want to keep an eye on them and most newbies don't know how to keep and eye on them. The discussion keeps pointing to newbies are the problem with packages yet you still want newbies to buy them and that makes me wonder why.


How about ease of access and ease of transport? Basically no special equipment needed from the supplier to home beyond the ability to roll down the window or put on the air conditioner for the trip as needed. The ability to resist a stop at your favorite lunch spot on the way home is also important if its a hot day........


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I don't want to keep an eye on them and most newbies don't know how to keep and eye on them. The discussion keeps pointing to newbies are the problem with packages yet you still want newbies to buy them and that makes me wonder why.


I think you are right Brian. If one can't put forth the effort then packages are not for the weak.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Honey-4-All, I think a lot of people must agree with you. A local supplier I buy my equipment from is getting in 3600 packages in April. There is a definite interest in packages, around here anyway.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I think there is a market for packages everywhere, at least here there is, and Im glad of it. Would I rather have a free fat swarm? Of course. Would I rather have a nice fat abundant early nuc? Of Course. Will I be buying a few packages to get bees on comb from winter losses? Of Course. Would I like to have to *rely* on swarms....... Of course Not! I'll take the swarms and nucs as they come, I want to start as early as I can on the comb I have idle. Sure, ive had em re-queen. Comes with the territory I suppose. Its like anything you do, give it the effort it deserves and your chances of success increase exponentially. Farming, Hunting, Sports or Beekeeping. They all take attention for success. G


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

*I WILL ALWAYS BUY PACKAGES*

I read this tread and just don't get the problems people have with packages. I buy 100's of packages every year and produce TONS of honey. How many packages are produced in the USA every year and the same people have problem with them year after year. :scratch: I would have to ask is it the package bees or the beekeeper. 20+ years using only packages to produce my liquid gold and I would say, "Only Packages for Me". I'm getting to old to look outside the package. I sell more hives and nucs to newbies that come to buy packages, because they want the SURE THING.:applause: 
This is a good place to learn. Not everyone can start with the seed, some need to just buy the plant.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: I WILL ALWAYS BUY PACKAGES*

>I buy 100's of packages every year and produce TONS of honey.

But if you want them to get through the winter you may find it to be quite different...


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I have yet to be successful at this. There must be a trick to it.
> 
> Not trying to get the last word.


Have you read Honeybee Democracy? I catch swarms in at least 50% in my traps(when I do set up traps) after using the knowledge from that book.


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## Learner (Jan 17, 2015)

SRatcliff said:


> Have you read Honeybee Democracy?...


That was recommended to us in our last week's beekeeping class. It's supposed to be a great book. It's on my list.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SRatcliff said:


> Have you read Honeybee Democracy? I catch swarms in at least 50% in my traps(when I do set up traps) after using the knowledge from that book.





Learner said:


> That was recommended to us in our last week's beekeeping class. It's supposed to be a great book. It's on my list.


I'm not through it entirely yet, but it's great so far. Lots of interesting information and Seeley writes in what I find to be a pretty interesting way.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

SRatcliff said:


> Have you read Honeybee Democracy? I catch swarms in at least 50% in my traps(when I do set up traps) after using the knowledge from that book.


Yes I have and one of the books from Michael Bush. There are things that I can do where I am and things that I can't.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

*Re: I will never buy packages again*



Michael Bush said:


> >I buy 100's of packages every year and produce TONS of honey.
> 
> But if you want them to get through the winter you may find it to be quite different...


That's the problem I ran into when I purchased packages years ago. It didn't go so well for me. Inexperience? .. perhaps. Since then I add swarms and do splits from my best colonies to cover any winter losses. It's worked great for me so far, no reason to change ... a lot cheaper too.

Everyone manages colonies with their own unique methods, and I guess there's a place for everything.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

*Re: I WILL ALWAYS BUY PACKAGES*



Mike Gillmore said:


> That's the problem I ran into when I purchased packages years ago. It didn't go so well for me. Inexperience? .. perhaps. Since then I add swarms and do splits from my best colonies to cover any winter losses. It's worked great for me so far, no reason to change ... a lot cheaper too.
> 
> Everyone manages colonies with their own unique methods, and I guess there's a place for everything.


I would love to be able to rely on splits and swarms but until i reach that threshold, I will have to introduce packages. Hopefully by this time next year I wont have to worry about ordering any. This year, build up and hopefully leave a couple untouched for production. G


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

*Re: I will never buy packages again*

silly question perhaps, and a bit late as this thread has drifted somewhat.

how did the OP check for tracheal mites to rule them out. it is my understanding that many times this disease will manifest itself as wintertime dieoff due to the bees not having sufficient respiration capacity to keep the heat up and continuously move in and out of the cluster. As the cluster shrinks and becomes weeker they starve to death.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

*Re: I will never buy packages again*

Thought I might add one more thought to this thread if anyone is interested. At yesterday's Association meeting the subject of packages and queens came up in our general discussion. 

Based on reports from the group it appears that packages installed last spring are providing much improved overwintering success. Many of our members reported that most of their package colonies are still doing well, with low or no losses at this point. I guess the problem of inferior queens in packages was taken seriously by the package suppliers in Georgia and they made some changes last year. 

Spring is still a ways off, but this is encouraging. I'm not a big fan of packages, but hopefully things are changing for the better.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

*Re: I WILL ALWAYS BUY PACKAGES*

My only package from last year is still going, and one of my strongest, they did superscede however. Now they are hot as a firecracker! lol G


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

*Re: I will never buy packages again*

Not sure who changed the thread title ... that's cute.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: I will never buy packages again*

Well of course you'll always buy packages...until you're a beekeeper and learn to raise your own.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: I WILL ALWAYS BUY PACKAGES*

MP, I'm sure you have learned how to raise good bees for what you need them for.

As a honey producer, I have learned with the right package supplier. I can produce 3X the amount of honey with package then an overwinter hive. With the price of honey raising every year, thats a good thing to know how to do.

I've been using package a long time. The first packages I bought cost $13.75 and queens were $3.75. That sounds cheap, but honey sold for $.38 a pound. Package price at $65-75 and honey selling at $3.15, I would have to say I'm way ahead of the game.:thumbsup:

You get one bad queen producer in the USA that sells, let say 18K packages and now all package are bad. 

Does anyone have a clue in how many packages are produce in the USA each year? How many package are produced from one hive each year? Is there more money made from packages and queens then lets say honey each year. :scratch::scratch:


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

The Honey Householder said:


> MP, I'm sure you have learned how to raise good bees for what you need them for.
> 
> As a honey producer, I have learned with the right package supplier. I can produce 3X the amount of honey with package then an overwinter hive. With the price of honey raising every year, thats a good thing to know how to do.
> 
> ...


So how many packages did you have to buy at one time to get them for $65 a package ? When was this 1980? LOL. I have seen packages go for that + $100 . Could you still do what you are doing with $160 packages ?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Harley Craig said:


> So how many packages did you have to buy at one time to get them for $65 a package ? When was this 1980? LOL. I have seen packages go for that + $100 . Could you still do what you are doing with $160 packages ?



You can buy them in California right now ( April Packages) from "a" producer.... not myself BTW .. for around $73 if you purchase a mighty large truck full. IOW ( in other words) show up with a check written to the tune of at least 50K if you want that pricing. 

I might know someone who would be be willing to cough up the info for a miniscule $5 per package brokerage fee on lots of 750 if your interested! No guarantees on honey crops or dead outy ratios included at this pricing. PM me if you have a heavy bank account looking to have its burden lightened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: I WILL ALWAY BUY PACKAGES*

$80K+ for 2015 packages, and another $7k+ for extra queens for splitting. Yes splitting! Packages go in the end of March and split the ones that need splitting in May (avg. 1/3 that need split). Not bad for a 2 pound package in NW Ohio.
At a $160 a package I would have to sell for $2.05 a lb. just to break even.:digging::digging:


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Ha ha thanks that's kinda what I figured. How many people buy truckloads for themselves. I would imagine the number of operations that large is pretty limited and y all are on a first name basis and send each other Christmas cards each yr lol for the avg guy that replaces 10 - 20 winter losses a yr I'd think it would be more economically feasible to raise their own splits


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: I WILL ALWAY BUY PACKAGES*

HC That price was in 1979. Didn't buy many package until mites. We didn't transport packages back in the day, so it cost us $1.25 a package for delivery too. We do all our own package transporting now at days.

$100+ for 3 lb packages is because the high demand in the past 7 years. New package player in the East, ML price at $115-$120 bought out of the west might help the demand of package coming out of the south.:kn: ML might be setting the new pricing for packages. Dealers are liking it.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Harley Craig said:


> Ha ha thanks that's kinda what I figured. How many people buy truckloads for themselves. I would imagine the number of operations that large is pretty limited and y all are on a first name basis and send each other Christmas cards each yr lol for the avg guy that replaces 10 - 20 winter losses a yr I'd think it would be more economically feasible to raise their own splits


Christmas cards, Sea food dinners, Deep sea fishing trips, crews, exc. LOLopcorn:


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

When I buy packages I use them to get my numbers up. This year I am increasing colony numbers and not harvesting any honey. I will make divisions and raise as many queens as I can. I use the packages for starter colonies and give them a frame of open from my strong hives. That settles them down right away. I fine the supercedure problem is more a brood condition that a queen condition. When they build up I will use them as resources for my mated northern stock. If all goes as planned, I will requeen with proven stock in July.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

You might be stuck in the walmart loop.
If you work at walmart you can't afford to shop anywhere else.

If you buy package bees you will always need to replace your package bees.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Michael B said:


> This year I am increasing colony numbers and not harvesting any honey.



Why is it that the most common phrase I hear regarding packages is that often retorted and highly bogus statement: " I don't expect to harvest any honey from them my first year." 

Unless you are keeping bees on the back side of the moon such a statement is about a preposterous as any I know. 

With proper timing, placement, and feeding a package can break a guys back come fall. Minimally it will encourage you to donate those golden profits to the local chiropractors vacation fund. 

People need to get the crazy "no honey the first year" notion removed from that mush filled cavity above their nostrils and get on with a plan than works like those who refuse to join the crybaby crowd!!!!

Seriously!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

A commercial near me gets several hundred packages a year to replace his losses. Starting with packages in a new hive has its challenges but dumping a package into a hive with drawn comb is like moving into a furnished house, all you have to do is clean and get some food. I started with packages and have since taken a page from Palmer and become sustainable. If I suffered staggering losses and needed to re-populate my apiary quickly I would buy packages again, no doubt about it.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Honey-4-All said:


> Why is it that the most common phrase I hear regarding packages is that often retorted and highly bogus statement: " I don't expect to harvest any honey from them my first year."
> 
> Unless you are keeping bees on the back side of the moon such a statement is about a preposterous as any I know.


I think because they are starting their new colonies on foundation.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> I think because they are starting their new colonies on foundation.


Does a "new foundation" status have any bearing on this issue? Yes, but nothing that can not be overcome with a healthy dose of sugar....

In my book it is all the more important that the feed stays on them till it is all drawn in such an instance. 

Feed! Feed! and Feed some more!

Get the syrup in the jars and your face in the hives.

When the bees are drawing the outside edges on both of the outside frames its time to be a little more judicious about the quantity of syrup one uses. Until then.......... Pour it on.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

Honey-4-All said:


> Why is it that the most common phrase I hear regarding packages is that often retorted and highly bogus statement: " I don't expect to harvest any honey from them my first year."
> 
> Unless you are keeping bees on the back side of the moon such a statement is about a preposterous as any I know.
> 
> ...


Calm down and read my post. I never made the statement of "no honey the first year". I stated I will not be harvesting honey. I will be using frames of honey to make increases and store any surplus honey frames for bee use. I am tired of feeding and making syrup. Also, I plan on to moving to a 3 deep wintering set up. Leaving more honey for the bees.

:gh:


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Michael B said:


> Calm down and read my post. I never made the statement of "no honey the first year". I stated I will not be harvesting honey. I will be using frames of honey to make increases and store any surplus honey frames for bee use. I am tired of feeding and making syrup. Also, I plan on to moving to a 3 deep wintering set up. Leaving more honey for the bees.
> 
> :gh:


Calmed down now! Feel much better!!!!

To clarify: Anyone who pulls honey for whatever reason has "harvested" honey IMO. Harvested does not mean it needs to have been in the extractor or the cheese cloth. Any honey " pulled" no mater if it is "repurposed" for another hive is still "harvested"

If its removed or transferred it has been "harvested".... Since semantics are at stake here I guess we can use the word "transferred" in your case and call it a day. The bottom line is that to get to the "transfer" point be that the extractor or to a hive on the far side of Pluto the need for feed to get to that point on a package is of utmost importance!!!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

All I can say is, a package installed on comb will never produce as much as an over-wintered nuc installed on comb.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> All I can say is, a package installed on comb will never produce as much as an over-wintered nuc installed on comb.


This would make an interesting competition.

To make it fair for Honey4all it would have to be reduced to economics as in $100 of package bees verse $100 worth of overwintered bees.

To make it fair for M Palmer, Honey4All would have to move to Vermont.


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## Learner (Jan 17, 2015)

Could someone post the odds for the bets please?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Mbeck said:


> To make it fair for M Palmer, Honey4All would have to move to Vermont.


Hee hee heeee!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Honey-4-All said:


> Feed! Feed! and Feed some more!


And if you don't want to feed you can patiently wait another year to harvest honey. That is usually not a deal breaker for a hobbyist but if the hives don't make it through winter that is a deal breaker.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

MP, 
I'm in NW Ohio and I can produce 3x more with a package then a over winter hive. I had a 2 lb package installed March 23 and produce 13 medium supers by the end of Oct. They don't all do that good but for 700+ package operation 1000+ hive operation. I still hit 132 APH over the last 7 years. 100% from packages and splits from packages.

You need to know how to work them or they will work you!!!!!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

HH, I've made 300 lb from an overwintered nuc...over and above what they made for their winter feed. Add the winter feed, which is what I believe is in your total as you don't winter your bees, and it's 370-380 @. They don't all do that, but plenty of 150-200s not counting winter feed. 

We all have our own way, and I'm not saying yours isn't a good management plan for you. But, an 8 frame, overwintered nuc, will have 5-7 frames of brood at the same time I would install a package from Georgia. That's why I said that an over-wintered nuc will out-produce a package. Nothing more.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

The Honey Householder said:


> I had a 2 lb package installed March 23 and produce 13 medium supers by the end of Oct.


That's incredible. More than 500 lbs of honey from one colony. Just curious, do you move your hives around all year and follow the flows? That's a remarkable yield, just wondering how you do it, if you don't mind sharing.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

It seems to be difficult to compare apples to apples here. I think it comes down the management, location, and luck of the draw on the package producer. Packages get a bad rap, primarily the early one's that have poorly produced and mated queens due to poor early weather conditions. I have seen great production from packages when managed properly. Beekeepers can also make hundreds of pounds of honey off of two frame splits, if managed properly. I winter a lot of nucs too, but beekeeper skill seems to be key...


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> We all have our own way, and I'm not saying yours isn't a good management plan for you. But, an 8 frame, overwintered nuc, will have 5-7 frames of brood at the same time I would install a package from Georgia. That's why I said that an over-wintered nuc will out-produce a package. Nothing more.


Oh boy, that right there resonates with me. Now, I do not, did not, will not buy package if my life depended on it. But that's just me.
Couple of friends of mine, on both ends of the beekeeping spectrum, do buy them also. Lots.

Nucs too. Now, we are in NC, not like you pros up there in the Winter Land. But still.

Yes, they did not kill the packages. From the Peach state. Nice peaches over there. Georgia peach. Got a zing in the sound.

But the nucs, swarmed on them. Although clear instructions, plain words were given to them, they went their way. Of doing and knowing things that is. They decided to keep the nucs in the original 5 F deep box, just to see how they'll take.:scratch: They did take. Take off that is.
Literally.

You guys might think I am making this up...but the explanation and reasoning I've got, was the following: The nucs, swarmed because they had bad queens, and they wanted to replace their queen. Parapharsing here of course. 
PG-13 version of things. Because these were nucs they've got from me.

P.S I just chalked that one up to *my* PPBK chapter. I am always the slow one to learn. In the group that is.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Honey-4-All said:


> Does a "new foundation" status have any bearing on this issue? Yes, but nothing that can not be overcome with a healthy dose of sugar....


I'll have to politely disagree. Some years this will work, some years it won't. I tell new beekeepers, don't expect to have honey to harvest the first year starting on foundation. And if you're not one to feed sugar for winter stores, the fall crop will stay on the hive. Too many variables to get all worked up over.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

apis maximus said:


> The nucs, swarmed because they had bad queens, and they wanted to replace their queen. Parapharsing here of course.


apis here some time ago I dared to debate a little the causes of swarming based on an article that used a mathematical modeling. I am sure that this explanation was not mentioned in the study.:scratch:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Mike Gillmore said:


> That's a remarkable yield, just wondering how you do it, if you don't mind sharing.


I'm all ears as well! What do you spend a year on liquid sugar or how many gallons do you use per hive?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

+1


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I'll buy packages when I must. Usually too dang expensive. 4 for 4 on the 2014 batch of packages, just like all the previous ones. Same supplier for the past 30 years (mostly just queens). The problem I have with packages is usually the 3rd winter .


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Barry said:


> I'll have to politely disagree. Some years this will work, some years it won't. I tell new beekeepers, don't expect to have honey to harvest the first year starting on foundation. And if you're not one to feed sugar for winter stores, the fall crop will stay on the hive. Too many variables to get all worked up over.


Variables....... more than all the posts on beesource....... Help. 

One should not expect anything in beekeeping except better results with better management. 

With packages on new foundation the probability of getting a crop on new foundation the first year sure goes up with food in the feeder.Won't hurt your odds. If someone just wants bees to pollinate their garden a quart now and then will keep them happy. If the same beek hopes to share a few jars with friends in the fall or sell some at the local health food store the necessity of keeping the feed on them as they draw the foundation can not be understated. 


All beekeeping moves are goal orientated. How one proceeds will always shape what you will get out of them. Feed accordingly!


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

JSL said:


> It seems to be difficult to compare apples to apples here. I think it comes down the management, location, and luck of the draw on the package producer. Packages get a bad rap, primarily the early one's that have poorly produced and mated queens due to poor early weather conditions. I have seen great production from packages when managed properly. Beekeepers can also make hundreds of pounds of honey off of two frame splits, if managed properly. I winter a lot of nucs too, but beekeeper skill seems to be key...


Joe,

Every once in a while I get a super queen that draws from all the hive in the yard and we do a 600+ lb production from that hive. Luckly the one beside it is a one or two honey super hive. That way I have something to stand on to super up my super queen hive. Only wish I had MORE of those.
I have gotton my package from the same supplier over the years in March and had one bad year. 8% that we requeened do to the weather and not getting mated right (Started laying and then petered out). On a normal year less then 2%. I like those odds. We make 3 frame splits from our five week old packages, and still produce 132 lb avg. Which might be the reason the avg. is so low.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> apis here some time ago I dared to debate a little the causes of swarming based on an article that used a mathematical modeling. I am sure that this explanation was not mentioned in the study.:scratch:


Yes Eduardo. That is what debate gets you. Nothing. Well, it might get you a black eye. Virtual black eye, thankfully.:lookout:

Especially, if you dare to start one. A debate I mean. Just don't. There is plenty of material floating on this fine forum, one can just tag along, be nice, not engaging, not attacking, not retracting either. Just sharing. Not debating.

I know, I know...totally foreign. Oh wait...you're from Portugal. I apologize. Not meant to be demeaning or anything like that. I know, that you know that. 

So to stay on topic, I'd say that packages, bee packages simply rock. Either directly picked or shipped to you. UPS and/or USPS. Just to be fair. Going postal has some deep meanings here on this side of the pond.

And then, when it comes to studies, empiricism, statistics, interpretations, material and methods, abstracts and theories...heck even the summarized versions, bees simply refuse to learn how to read. 
So, they, the bees, just do not read them studies. I might be wrong saying this, and if so, I politely stand to be corrected.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Mike Gillmore said:


> That's incredible. More than 500 lbs of honey from one colony. Just curious, do you move your hives around all year and follow the flows? That's a remarkable yield, just wondering how you do it, if you don't mind sharing.


From the time we shake them in or split them they stay in that spot until we shake them out in the fall. No flow chaser here. Most fall shake out avg 8-10 pounds of bees, which is sold for $20-25 each. If I could only buy them back for that in the spring, but someone has to feed them and deal with the ones that don't make it.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Ron,

It sounds like you have an efficient system in place. Do you use a 3# package? I do a lot of work with 2# packages for feeding trials and they are really only at a good 5 frame count at 5 weeks post install.

I have not seen the poor results from packages that some report, but there are issues that do come up. A good deal can be corrected with proper management, but sometimes mother nature just isn't on your side.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

JSL said:


> A good deal can be corrected with proper management, but sometimes mother nature just isn't on your side.


Awesome. +100.

Moment of clarity I"ll just anchor in, and go to sleep.

Thanks Doc ! Knew I can count on you.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Joe,
Just 2 # packages. 
We give the bees what they need, where they need it in the hives. Gets me one more frame ahead of the game. Sure the bees can do it themselves, but time is money in the spring getting things going. Doesn't work for all of them, but 1/3 of the hive. No matter how efficient I am, the bees still do their own thing. Bees grow faster if they start in the middle of the box. Just can't get all of them to understand that.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I have read where a retired commercial beekeeper in Canada states bees overwinter poorly on new comb. This might add another variable to the over-wintering success of packages.

I think the two biggest factors are beekeeper experience/knowledge and having good forage locations.

Tom


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

TWall said:


> I have read where a retired commercial beekeeper in Canada states bees overwinter poorly on new comb.


Possibly some truth to that in Canada but as a general rule if it were true then swarms wouldn't have a chance and that means bees would go extinct.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> All I can say is, a package installed on comb will never produce as much as an over-wintered nuc installed on comb.


 In my opinion, I wouldn't need a competition to know the truth about this statement. I've seen it.


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

To compare an artificial swarm (package) without resources to a natural swarm or a nuc both with resources is similar to comparing apples to oranges. :ws:



Mbeck said:


> I wonder why some people perceive package bees as inferior. I've made up more than a few to abuse and test other factors that might affect the end user experience. I think maybe people blame the package or the bees in it rather than examine things closer
> 
> Package bees are a different experience and not always the best choice for a given situation. I think dollar for dollar they still offer in most cases the nearly same odds of sucsess as any other method of buying bees.
> 
> There is nothing that can match their explosive growth rate.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Possibly some truth to that in Canada but as a general rule if it were true then swarms wouldn't have a chance and that means bees would go extinct.


Whose _general rule_?

How do you know if swarms are using old or new comb?

Note I used the word _poorly_. That doesn't mean they cannot survive on new comb just that they do better on old comb.

Tom


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

TWall said:


> How do you know if swarms are using old or new comb?


The majority of swarms use new comb because old come gets consumed by wax moths. If that didn't happen there wouldn't be a cavity nowhere that wasn't crammed full of comb and the honey bee would not need to be able to draw comb.


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