# 50% losses



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

'I am very concerned about this year based on what we have seen in California and other parts" of the United States, said Jeffery S. Pettis,'

'Hackenberg said he and other major commercial beekeepers have seen "50 percent or better" losses since late fall and in the winter'

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35868422/ns/technology_and_science-washington_post/


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Interesting, and somewhat depressing, article


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

I really like this statement - "Until a decade ago or so, beekeepers earned most of their income from honey, but the honey crop is no longer profitable. The globalization of the market has depressed prices as the costs of hive management have increased." Gee...you don't think it has anything to do with packers and importers as the members of National Honey Board do you? :doh:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ultimately it has to do w/ the end consumer. As we get farther and farther away from the farm we loose identification w/ our food sources. We already import a good percentage of our food, in this country, and it will only become a larger percentage.

One day, domestically produced honey, on a large scale such as Sue Bee or Dutch Gold, may become a thing of the past.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Sue Bee is one of the worst offenders of imported honey...don't be fooled. If they find tainted honey in their imports they just send it back to the broker to be resold to someone less diligent with regards to standards and don't even bother to report it to the FDA or anyone for that matter. Great concern for the public...


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> We already import a good percentage of our food, in this country, and it will only become a larger percentage.


Maybe....maybe not. You are assuming that every other input remains constant. As fuel costs rise it may come to pass that domestically produced food (and any number of other things) may be more economical....solely because of the relative expense of transportation.


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

beemandan said:


> Maybe....maybe not. You are assuming that every other input remains constant. As fuel costs rise it may come to pass that domestically produced food (and any number of other things) may be more economical....solely because of the relative expense of transportation.



That would imply that locally produced foods would be more economical as well. Which would not favor a large producer.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

Tequila only comes from an area in Mexico and 100% agave makes all the difference.

Champagne only comes from France. Scotch from Scotland. Bourbon from Kentucky.

My maple syrup is either a product of Canada, Vermont, New Hampshire or Maine and aunt Jemima doesn't get invited to breakfast.

The other week I bought a case of Harp on account a good friend was coming. When I saw the label saying brewed in Canada under licence under the big IMPORTED, I emailed Guinness and let them know that the next time I buy a Canadian beer it will be Moosehead.

We can complain all we want, but nothing will change until the buying public understands we're not getting what we paid for.


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## CentralPAguy (Feb 8, 2009)

throrope said:


> We can complain all we want, but nothing will change until the buying public understands we're not getting what we paid for.


Right on. Companies need to know when you are disastified with a product.

Back on the Thread, are we the smaller beeks experiencing these types of losses. If not, then we need to ask the hard question, why the difference?

To the big beeks on this forum did you experience this type of loss? I am a rather small beek with 39 hives. Most of them are coming thru the winter.

What is different with my small operation than the big operations. 

Seriously, I haven't a clue on what the differences might be, but I am seeing no more than a 10-15 percent loss.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Factoring in a 50% loss, ya , honey production isnt profitable. But factoring 20% and lower loss does pencil out a profit margin. Especially with honey at 1.5$
arnt you guys getting that price down there?


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

But there is a frequent contributor on BS who replaces 100% of his colonies every year and is very successful.

Where is my thinking cap.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Last fall was the worst I've seen in the 30+ years of beekeeping. There will be heavy lose for most. For me I have 23 live hives out of 850+, yes there is still a few hanging on.

If you think it's hard making it on $1.50 a lb you should try it when honey was $.38 a lb. OK that might be showing my age a little, but it didn't seem that many years ago. 
Look at the price of bees vs. honey.
1990 a #2 package was $14.95 and honey price was $.40-.43.
2010 a #2 package is $45.50 and honey $1.55-1.65.

Yes I do replace all my bees each year, and no hair off my back. You do the numbers. Bees have tripled in the past 20 year, but look at the honey price. Yes the price of bees went up again this year and yes the price of honey will go up again this year too. It's the price of doing business. I can't say that everything I try works out, but 30 years later I'm still in the business.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Yeah Ian...shortage of white is inching it up...on good days it can get 1.56-1.60 but it is hovering right above 1.50 most of the time.


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## Farmsteader (Mar 12, 2010)

I would concentrate on just selling direct to consumer and high quality stores and resturants local and state wide, promote local Food, this is working in Farmers markets, find local Farmers or Venders to sell your honey, even make a few differnent labels and sell to all the Vendors that you can for more money. give you an example, one of our Feed Stores sells local honey for 8.95 a Quart Jar, that comes out to about 3.25 a pound Retail, that is the Cheapist that we have seen retail here in NO Arkansas for good local Honey, but who knows , maybe the producer just repacks junk from China and makes a huge profit! I doubt it but you never know. 
One other point , it looks like the Honey Industry is similiar to what happened to the Dairy industry, the Chinese is flooding the market with Powdered Tainted stuff for Milk Product cos Cheap. Good thing about honey is ,hard to water it down. Only the purity or safety of the product. Also the Retailers and Middle men need to be cut out, dont let the Large Corps put out the Beekeepers, do this by Marketing in new and creative ways. It is worth your time to market and implement your findings, have a youngster help with this . Good luck and Best wishes, Aj and Denise


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>If you think it's hard making it on $1.50 a lb you should try it when honey was $.38 a lb. 

I hear ya The Honey Householder, the guy I first bought bees from went through a year of .23$/lbs, just after he factored a .75$/lbs budget and built his house!
He stayed afloat, just like many did, through tough times the stronge will shin 
and then many sink and disapear,


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Ian , keep in mind that most american producers would be envious of the crops you get. Few would average what you average.

Jean-Marc


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

The last time losses were so high was the last time there was an el-nino`... Once again we have an el-nino` and losses are high... I wonder if there is some correlation between el-nino` weather patterns and high loss rates... would need loss statistics going back several decades to know for sure though.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Maybe....maybe not. You are assuming that every other input remains constant. As fuel costs rise it may come to pass that domestically produced food (and any number of other things) may be more economical....solely because of the relative expense of transportation.


You gonna pick it? And I am not assuming anything except that the trend seems obvious. Have you seen any manufacturing jobs coming back to the U.S.? And if the farm Labor Bill passes the NY Legislature there will be lots of dairy farms and orchards and vegetable farms that won't be able to stay in business. So where will all of those farms end up being? Off shore, I'll bet.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

CentralPAguy said:


> Seriously, I haven't a clue on what the differences might be, but I am seeing no more than a 10-15 percent loss.


All sorts of numbers amongst smaller beekeepers in northern NY. 10% to 90%.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>most american producers would be envious of the crops you get. Few would average what you average.

good point Jean Marc


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> And I am not assuming anything except that the trend seems obvious.


Trends are one part of the equation. For decades financial advisors pointed to the stock market as a place to put your money if you wanted growth. With only a few short exceptions, sixty years of steady upward trend. The last decade has put that trend to bed. And of course, who can forget the real estate experts who assured people that homes and land would only go higher…..as they consistently had over many decades. Do you still buy that trend? If you look only at the 'obvious' trend, you may find yourself blindsided by other factors….and the cost of fuel, in my opinion, has and will continue to disrupt any number of past trends. 


sqkcrk said:


> You gonna pick it?


I already do at some level. If I get hungry enough…..I’ll do more.
Best to ya


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Well, in 15 years last year was the worst I ever had. It just rained. And rained. 50% winter loss. Long cold spells and late start. But some producers in patches across the US did well. Now I have more out of state locations as insurance, otherwise I would be white-knuckled this year. My yards are no longer lakes, but they are thick deep with mud. Rained again yesterday, and the day before, etc.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> I already do at some level. If I get hungry enough…..I’ll do more.
> Best to ya


And yet, I bet I will never see you picking and pruning apples in the orchards that my bees pollinate. The level about which you write is of little sugnificance to the over all food consumption.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> And yet, I bet I will never see you picking and pruning apples in the orchards that my bees pollinate.


 That would be ridiculous. Why would I travel that far? On the other hand, if you chose to make the trip you’d find me picking where my bees pollinate…be it apples, blueberries etc. My point was that the cost of energy will impact the price and availability of imported produce. You obviously disagree.


sqkcrk said:


> The level about which you write is of little sugnificance to the over all food consumption.


You missed my point. As an individual, my efforts to supply produce are and will always be of little significance. You need to think of me as a microcosm (I’ve waited a long time for the opportunity to use that word) of the larger. As I find it more practical to plant and pick my own, so will others. In my opinion, the increasing costs of energy will make domestic and locally grown produce increasingly competitive. Again, you disagree....and that's ok.
And again best to ya.
ps we seem to have strayed quite some distance from the original topic.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

beemandan said:


> ps we seem to have strayed quite some distance from the original topic.


Yes, I noticed. What is it about this thread? It has already spawned one unrelated discussion.

Please, it is sometimes better to start a new thread (maybe with a reference to the first topic) if your thought processes take the original post in a new direction.
Additionally, if a discussion moves into a more direct off topic exchange between two individuals, taking it to PMs is sometimes most productive.
Thanks
Sheri


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Maybe this thread keeps shifting off topic because not much can be said about the original topic. Fifty percent losses? Hard to face those losses, if the reports are accurate. But no one seems to have much to say about it. Maybe losses aren't as bad as some of the stories. Maybe very few beekeepers are willing to own up to losing high percentages of their hives. No matter, not much seems to coming as discussion on the original topic of the thread.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

I agree, not much forthcoming. It may be a combination about 1st) not wanting to talk about 50% losses, (too depressing) plus too busy scrambling to make them up to post, and 2nd) some may just not know what their ultimate number is. We won't know, for instance until the bees start trickling in some time next week. Seems you can turn your back on them for 2 weeks and those numbers might change dramatically. I don't sleep well until they are safe and sound in the back yard. Too scary thinking that we might be next!!
Sheri


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Have some loss numbers been inflated for personal reasons? I don't have a final count of all of my colonies, but I seem to have lost about 30%. 

So why are beekeepers who are supposedly more experienced and knowledgable than I, and don't spend as much time as I do on beesource, loosing so many more hives than I? 

I also know a beekeeper who runs 2500 colonies who isn't loosing anywhere near what others are reporting. I'll ask him about his loss rate and get back to you. Almond pollination was so good for him that some hives were left in CA so the semis wouldn't be over loaded. They come back east on another load.

So, what is going on? Why can't we keep our hives alive?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

My observation of my 80% loses point to a yet undiagnosed virus that affects the queen, and kills a lot of worker population particularly during cold and wet weather. I am finding now colonies that have survived a few months as a tiny cluster, but have no vigor. Next to them are booming hives.
I feel that the amount of time one spends on Beesource, or even sitting on the toilet for that matter, is not associated with bee loss. I have kept bees for 40 years, and only suffered large losses since the mite arrived. The massive losses started after the Australian bees arrived locally.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

A lot of people stopped talking about the losses because they were getting chastised by people for PPB on this site. Yes the losses are real, how ever they happened.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Before you ask “why can’t I keep my bees alive” make your homework. The first step to more success... don’t blame others like viruses, mites, bees from oversea and maybe your neighbors for the trouble in your bee yard. Blame yourself!

Ask yourself:

Have I checked for mites during the whole year or only sporadically in fall? Have I treated my bees during summer when it was necessary or only in fall like other beekeepers? Have I ever heard mites are resistant to my medication? Have I checked my bees after each treatment to see whether it was successful or not? 

What kind of treatment was it? Why did I treat the bees with the medication I use, because it was successful all the years before or because somebody told me to use it? Do I believe mites can be resistant to my medication? Have you seen bee with crippled wings in summer and did not react immediately? 

Do I have any excuses because……? 

If you follow the rules and you made your homework as good as you can (without ANY excuses), you should never have loose more than 10% during winter.

I’m sure there are many beekeepers who don’t agree with me….. they have excuses. Be honest to your self, it’s the best way for success in the future. 

Today you can keep bees only one way… the right way or they are gone in no time.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Axtman*

Sometimes your best friend is the one who tells you something you don't really want to hear.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Axtman*

>>Before you ask “why can’t I keep my bees alive” make your homework. The first step to more success... don’t blame others like viruses, mites, bees from oversea and maybe your neighbors for the trouble in your bee yard. Blame yourself!

Basically , yes, I agree with ya
Mites, viruses, bees from over seas, your neighbours are all some of the problems we face, but they are manageable. Hard to manage, and sometimes seem impossible, but they are managable.
How many beekeepers use a treatment in their hives that dont work, and dont check to see if its working? Most of us! And I am not just reffering to chemical applications ,

Instead of looking for excuses, we should concentrate more on finding a solution. Start looking outside the box a bit, I guess.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Axtmann said:


> I’m sure there are many beekeepers who don’t agree with me….. they have excuses. Be honest to your self, it’s the best way for success in the future.
> 
> Today you can keep bees only one way… the right way or they are gone in no time.


So, anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong? Great way to end a conversation. If you study the history of beekeeping in the USA you will see that 50% over winter losses were not uncommon 100 years ago. That's why the package bee industry built up and was a huge success.

When I lived in So California in the 1970s I worked with beekeepers from the desert. They often lost half their bees in late summer due to excessive heat, pesticides and queenlessness. I also worked in a bee supply store back then and met hundreds of successful beekeepers. 

I learned very early on that there many many ways of keeping bees that work. Some try to keep every hive alive and some just keep on dividing to make up for inevitable losses. To say that there is only one right way -- well, I won't say you are wrong -- just sadly uninformed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Axtmann said:


> Before you ask “why can’t I keep my bees alive” make your homework. The first step to more success... don’t blame others like viruses, mites, bees from oversea and maybe your neighbors for the trouble in your bee yard. Blame yourself!


I always blame myself first, unless, like last season, no one had a good honey crop, that I blame on the weather.

But 99% of the time I figure I did something wrong or didn't do the right thing. I take the blame and the credit.

Maybe keeping the hive alive starts w/ keeping the hive strong. I think that I need to be more agressive w/ mite treatments and nosema treatments. And new comb too.

Maybe I should just start all over again.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> I always blame myself first


That's good to know. When things go wrong for me, I _also_ blame you


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

Great , now we have someone from a foriegn country throwing use all under the bus.

Guess you've never witnessed hives dying in two weeks or less, and yes we did our "homework"

So I say to you Axtman, in the nicest way possible, go away, until you come live and work in my world, just go away.

I had this great idea to write 6 paraghraphs on this, but its all been posted before, and its a waste of my time.

Have a great day, god bless and good luck.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Axtmann said:


> Ask yourself:
> 
> Have I checked for mites during the whole year or only sporadically in fall? Have I treated my bees during summer when it was necessary or only in fall like other beekeepers? Have I ever heard mites are resistant to my medication? Have I checked my bees after each treatment to see whether it was successful or not? .


Well said Axtmann.

Tom, can I be your freind .

I have kepted bees in Calif for 30 years and have avg 5-7% loss over the year to year. When my bees take a hit ,I almost always can look back at the calender and find MY MISTAKE.

It takes courage ( Axtmann) to spell it out the way it is.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Hey when you have high loss there is only yourself to blame. 
How often does anyone want to change the way they have learned to do something. Like many business, you have to change with the times. As new problems come along, you can stick your head in the sand, or keep on trying to get something that works. Sooner or later you mine find something that works or you throw in the towel. Over 30 year in the business I can look back and see the good and the back. I remember when AFB and EFB was the big problem in the biz.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

So when the farmer next door plants a crop with a new pesticde encoded on the seed, that has been proven to come out in the necture and pollen which kills bees in the PPB, (parts per billion) thats my fault?

Or when the almond grower changes to a new fungicide (Bravo), that's somehow my fault?

or when the county spays for grasshoppers with seven, that my fault?


I am having a hard time with this one.


P.S. Jarrett, were you feeding 25 to 30 lbs of protien sub per hive per winter 30 years ago or is that a new thing?


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

5% loss per year over 30 years seems like BS to me. I have never heard anything like that in my life.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

LSPender said:


> P.S. Jarrett, were you feeding 25 to 30 lbs of protien sub per hive per winter 30 years ago or is that a new thing?


Larry, use to feed about 5-7 pounds back then, but, back then I was only getting 16 dollars in the almonds.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

mythomane said:


> 5% loss per year over 30 years seems like BS to me. I have never heard anything like that in my life.


Yeah... YOU probably never heard of make up increase before the almonds either, have you.

the only BS is what your looking at when you lift your lids.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

95% of bee losses can be traced back to management...beekeeper management issues. The other 5% is uncontrolable.
I suggest before pointing the finger at the chemical companies or the farmers or anyone else, know your mite counts. Saying they are high or low is not good enough. Saying well, i saw none visually is not good enough. Mite counts need to be monitored spring, summer and fall. Realizing that, and that alone is a management issue. It does not matter what treatment be it chemical or alternative, it needs to be checked and checked again.
As well, treatments that are applied need to be checked for effacy, not to mention, treatments of any kind need to be done before the mites damage the winter broodor for that matter, damage the summer brood which looks after the winter brood.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Blaming beekeepers for the large scale losses is pointless and entirely ignores the magnitude of the current crisis. 



> One third of honey bee colonies in the US were lost during each of the last three winters between ’06-’09. This alarming overwinter along with other losses of this primary pollinator, Apis mellifera L., as well as those of native pollinators, has been documented in North America and Europe. The most recent manifestation of this decline, Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD), has led to a significant collaborative effort involving several land grant universities, Departments of Agriculture and the USDA.


This is not something cooked up by beekeepers to get a share of government subsidies. This is a real problem, which has not been solved as yet.



> The widespread occurrence of multiple residues, some at toxic levels for single compounds, and the lack of any scientific literature on the biological consequences of combinations of pesticides, argues strongly for urgent changes in regulatory policies regarding pesticide registration and monitoring procedures as they relate to pollinator safety. This further calls for emergency funding to address the myriad holes in our scientific understanding of pesticide consequences for pollinators.


This second paragraph is telling us two things. One, there are way too many pesticides in bee hives. Some are from the environment, some are from beekeepers, nobody is immune. Second, there are "myriad holes in our understanding". In plain English, _we just don't know what we need to know_

Source:


> High Levels of Miticides and Agrochemicals in North American Apiaries: Implications for Honey Bee Health. www.plosone.org


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

oh relax guys! its nothing that hasnt been said before


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ian said:


> oh relax guys!


Ian, a glass of Calif Merlot wine & 75 sunny zoogree, I'm relaxed Babe.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Everyone is speaking mites and treatments. I have watched mites since they got here about 15 years ago and what has hit my bees the last three years ain't mites. Look at my videos, they drop dead by the thousands in days and weeks, not a slowly from mites. It might have come from mites, but I doubt it's mites directly.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

part of the problem is the viruses and pathogens associated with mite are not the same as they where 15 years ago they are mutating and combinations of them are the one two punch that devastates your bees-look to the present for finding a answer 15 years ago is all gone- RDY-B


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

LSPender - Did we not go thru all this "Righteous" beekeeping when mites first hit? All those that did not get hit the first year pointed fingers at all those that did get hit. Payback came the second year when the finger pointers lost their bees too.
Yes, due to an unfortunate illness in a Mack truck, we did alot of things wrong this August, and are paying for it dearly. That was our fault. Back in 2005-2006 with 85 percent loss, that was NOT our fault. We can confidently pinpoint the source if the problem.

Odfrank - I believe you are seeing what we saw in 2005-2006. Is it beyond comprehension? No one can believe it untill the see it for themselves.

Roland


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

>>>………..So when the farmer next door plants a crop with a new pesticde encoded on the seed, that has been proven to come out in the necture and pollen which kills bees in the PPB, (parts per billion) thats my fault?
Or when the almond grower changes to a new fungicide (Bravo), that's somehow my fault?
or when the county spays for grasshoppers with seven, that my fault?
I am having a hard time with this one…….<<<

See what was happen a few years ago in France. Farmers did the same and hives got lost by the thousands. 
The France beekeepers moved there hives totally out of the whole area and nothing was left for the pollination. Farmers had big losses and complaint to the government and the beekeepers demonstrated too, the result was a total ban on the “new pesticides”. As far as I know these pesticides are now band in Europe and I wonder why it’s not band in North Amerika. 

If you do nothing than don’t even complain when your bees are gone and you out of business. I guarantee you, if most beekeepers would ignore the almond grower for one or two years because of the danger fungicide, Bravo would have NO FUTURE.

I’m not here to tell you what to do. We have only approx 300 hives in our bee club and we talk to the farmers. Most of them let us know early enough when they have to spray and we move our hives before. 

If a farmer ignores us, we also ignore the farmer. Take a guess who is the winner.


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## Naturegoods (Mar 12, 2010)

I clicked away from this thread but have to come back for one short point. I'm not a commercial or even large beekeeper. Reading the post about France and Germany; I served my country, and I fear for it's future. It seems everyone likes to talk about global this and that from economics to weather yet Americans also seem to think that what has happened 'over there' won't happen here. The arrogence is overwelming.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Some of the claims in this thread are getting into the tall-tale category. Anyone who hasn't suffered much winter loss hasn't experienced a hard winter, in my opinion. Even the best beekeepers at over wintering bees will take large losses some years.

And the accusations about pesticides? Well, certainly pesticides can cause losses, but the chemicals accused in this thread just don't logically correspond to the timing of the losses where they are blamed.

Seems to be a lot of "your fault" and "someone else's fault" flying around.


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