# Quebec Queens



## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I was at the Bee Tour in New Brunswick and there was one particular guest speaker there by the name of Pierre Giovenazzo and he has been working with government funding to develop queens that are from the best of the best and they have some queen producers selling the genetic line of queens, they have really done there homework and I really want to get my hands on some of those Ladies  

Do any of you know about the queens which I am asking about?
I have a message in with NS dept of Ag and should have some kind of an answer in a few weeks 

I am just wondering if any of you have used the queens and how they are working out for you?

Thanks


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## pascal (Oct 1, 2010)

Yes, I use some of this queens this summer, my boss is cooperating with mr giovenazzo. The knowing I have is that Mr giovenazzo and the quebec breeders exchange queens in order to make a selection. I know that the crsad also have some semence from european breeders. For me, it result in a few orangish nice italians, They do well in summer, but the big reaper-winter will says what's good in that issue.


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

Maybe I would try pure Quebec queens, but not Pope Canyon queens, ever again.
{Pope Canyon Queens: VSH Carniolans and Italians from northern Quebec (Desrochers) and Laval University breeding program (Giovennazo) selected to mate with Survivor stock from breeding program in northern California (Shubert)}
Ordered 10 of them, and those were the slowest 10 colonies I ever had. None of them produced a single frame of honey to harvest.
They ended up costing me 1,300 lbs of honey, comparing to my other colonies requeened with Olivarez carniolans.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I hope to get some to try out next year, keep me posted on your wintering % with the Quebec stock 

I bought 20 Olivarez Carni queens and I think I have 1-2 left out of 20, the rest were duds and I requeened with local stock, I won't make that mistake again. I am not sure why they were so poor but they were laying like crazy for about 1 month in a good nectar flow and they had lots of room to lay and they just seemed to shut down for whatever reason.


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

Ben Little said:


> I hope to get some to try out next year, keep me posted on your wintering % with the Quebec stock


Will do. There is always a risk factor with imported queens.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Good stock is important, but the quality of the daughter queens produced from any stock is equally important. Why not produce your own queens, under optimal circumstances? You will not be disappointed.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I agree with raising your own queens, but I'm going to use an example from chickens to illustrate why. I got 90 eggs from a breeding program at a university and hatched them with 60 odd chicks emerging. As they grew, I noticed that there were lots of problems with legs, shanks, and toes. I culled very aggressively until there were only 6 hens and 2 roosters left. Now I've hatched out 30 chicks and the improvement in their feet is amazing. Selection works. Whether it is honeybees or chickens, do some due diligence and you can change the genetics in just one generation. In 3 or 4 years, the genetics can be so totally different that the original poor stock is just a distant memory.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

JSL said:


> Good stock is important, but the quality of the daughter queens produced from any stock is equally important. Why not produce your own queens, under optimal circumstances? You will not be disappointed.


I know making my own queens is probably best but right now I don't have the time for it, with the constant expansion I am going through it is best for me to buy mated queens ready for splits or requeening ect.. Only because of the very short season.
There are 2 seasons in NS, Winter and Summer  6 months of each LOL


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

Raising my own queens will start when I move to my property in Hastings.
For a time being I can spare only weekends for my beekeeping.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

10 years ago I bought queens from Jean Pierre Chapleau, north of Sherbrooke, Quebec. He also had a government grant to raise quality queens that were tolerant of varroa. Some were dark and some were bright yellow. While I didn't see much improvement in varroa tolerance, they were productive and wintered well. He sold his apiary to his partner, but the stock might still be available.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The Carnis will shut down earlier than the Italians when the weather turns cold.
And especially when resources are scarce to conserve the colony. They will reproduce
quickly once resources come in again. I know that you don't have the time to winter them and
baby sit. But if you can let the 2 hives multiply and make splits during the flow then they will
overwinter well with a larger than normal hive population. Lauri has the carnis too in a cold region. Maybe she
has a secret to multiply them faster to 300.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

bee keeping is local... beepro is right lauri's climate is colder than his. for me and ben little her climate is quite mild. it is hard sometimes to realize that what works up north and what does not work in the south are 2 different things in 2 areas, and then there is all the gray in between..... ben it sounds like the queens you bought were not well mated. I bought some nucs this year from a quality local keeper they did great, then the queens quit on some of them. I got some replacements from a large ny producer, they are satisfactory, it turns out that the first batch were queen cells from the second source. I found this out later. so a not great experience from purchased queens is not always genetics.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ben Little said:


> I bought 20 Olivarez Carni queens and I think I have 1-2 left out of 20, the rest were duds and I requeened with local stock, I won't make that mistake again.


Is'nt this business crazy. I found the exact opposite with my Olivarez queen this year, top performers in every category. I found what you described from another supplier although...


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I think the 'batch' matters a lot. I bought queens from a guy a lot of people are high on and I swore he sent me the poor layers and non layers on purpose because my first shipment was lost. Who knows.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

It may have been just my luck with the Cali queens, it was the first year we were able to import them and it might have been a shipping problem or whatever. I'm sure they make great quality but I didn't see anything special in mine  Most made it into pollination and then poof they were done. IDK there are a lot of factors to what happened, maybe they were damaged in transport from the blueberry fields?? 

Either way when I get more time to do things the way I want to next year, it will be different and maybe I will dabble in some queens if I can.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Ian said:


> Is'nt this business crazy. I found the exact opposite with my Olivarez queen this year, top performers in every category. I found what you described from another supplier although...


I wonder if the extreme drought has impacted queen raising in CA. I avoided CA queens this year because of that and will again next spring if the weather there doesn't improve.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Ben Little said:


> I was at the Bee Tour in New Brunswick and there was one particular guest speaker there by the name of Pierre Giovenazzo and he has been working with government funding to develop queens that are from the best of the best and they have some queen producers selling the genetic line of queens, they have really done there homework and I really want to get my hands on some of those Ladies
> 
> Do any of you know about the queens which I am asking about?
> I have a message in with NS dept of Ag and should have some kind of an answer in a few weeks
> ...


We are breeding from a few CRSAD queens. The mother queens and the majority of their daughter queens have a very distinctive look, compared to the rest of our stock, and I can tell them apart with just a glance. Perhaps a relic of the buckfast background?

The verdict on them is not out yet, at least not for our operation. I've read of the CRSAD's reports and have high hopes their stock, but I'll make myself a formal opinion on them in Spring. Feel free to contact me then, if I'm happy with them I'll have daughters of theirs for sale.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

camero7 said:


> I wonder if the extreme drought has impacted queen raising in CA. I avoided CA queens this year because of that and will again next spring if the weather there doesn't improve.


I contacted Ray on the very issue and he responded to my email immediately, without hesitation and up front with the issue. He assured me his yards were located in an area not affected as badly plus there were timely rains that swept through. I can only take his word on this and his queens this year performed the best in the bunch. 
I buy my queens from several different suppliers to help mitigate "bad batch" issues. Nothing worst than getting a large shipment of queens that were overdue in their queen banks.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

I watched a very interesting presentation by Jeff Pettis from the Beltsville lab on this subject, why such varying reports on queens from various producers. He showed some interesting graphs of the preliminary data being presented earlier this year at the BeaverLodge field day. The methodology used looked pretty good to me, when the batches of queens were shipped, they went complete with accelerometers and temperature recorders in the boxes going from various locations to the lab in Beltsville. When they arrived, they tested the sperm in the queens for viability.

Some of the shipping boxes saw extremes in temperature during shipping, as low as freezing, and as high as 160 or so Farenheight for periods during shipping, which were equated to unheated cargo holds on airplanes, and 'back of the truck in the hot sun' while being driven around. Sperm collected out of the queens exposed to the extreme temps during shipping, was for the most part unviable, with very low numbers of live sperm in those samples. A queen that has only 40% live sperm in storage, will produce an awful shotgun brood pattern, even if she is a good layer, because a lot of the eggs will be either drones, or cleaned out because they aren't actually fertilized.

In hindsight, it was most interesting I thought. They went into the experiment with some assumptions, which proved to not be the case, and what they were finding, a lot of the poor quality queens in the test, came about not due to poor conditions at the queen producer, and not due to poor conditions at the end user, but rather due to shipping in between the two. It wasn't really the result they were expecting, or looking for.

I've thought about it a lot since then, and, really have started to wonder somewhat aloud, if indeed the the real reason many folks have much better success with 'local queens' is not because the queens from far away are poor to begin with, but more about conditions during shipping, which is what his presentation was hinting towards as a conclusion, altho he emphasized, preliminary data no firm conclusions yet. Shipping conditions are not a factor for local stock, so a non issue for the queens produced locally.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

An interesting study could be made from shipping a queen(s) on a round trip of similar distance back to the seller/producer and see if the trip has done any damage to the quality or not. Just to show where the negative factors could be.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Ben, there was already a study done on queens sperm count arriving at the buyer's location. Yes, there are
some negative effects on them. But I did not track the link to this study. Also keep in mind that each batch of
production queen is different because the drones genetic are different too. I have noticed that thru out different months
the worker bees have different colors. So each color change to me is from a different drone source. I'm not sure how the
queen can arrange or randomly select the eggs from the different drones to lay. Good idea on different queen source for your hives. Then
you can select the best of the best to head your colony the next season. At least you're not putting all your eggs in the same basket. 
Diversification is the key just like the investment market to minimize the risks. Have you consider a good source of breeder queens to graft 
in your operation, Ben?


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I haven't decided as of yet what I want to use, I think I am going to get a mutt either way I go about it, as long as it is a good mutt LOL. 
I would like to have mostly Carniolan and Buckfast strain. I like the gentleness of the Carni's and the wintering capabilities of the buckfast. Maybe I can make some mixed breeds and call them Barni's


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

I bought VSH carniolan queens from Anicet Desrochers 2 years ago to make up overwintered nucs and they were good performers this year. They also seemed to have good varroa tolerance.

https://www.mielsdanicet.com/en/queen-breeding-center/

I have also been happy with queens from Chatsworth Honey in Ontario. They are part of the OBA's Ontario Resistant Honeybee Breeding Program. 

http://www.ontariobee.com/ORHBS
http://chatsworthhoney.com/honey/

Breeders in this program have their colonies tested for hygienic behaviour. It seems that every breeder claims VSH or hygienic queens, but I often question how many are actually testing/selecting for it.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The secret is to buy from a reputable queen farm. After that I graft from this breeder queen to make my F1 daughters that mated with the local drones that have the hygienic traits. So mutt or not these queens will be selected for specific traits like laying pattern, etc for example. This is my culling process for my production hives. I'm sure somebody had created your choice Barnie already. All you have to do is to find them to incorporate into your queen program. Don't be afraid to ask around as your success or failure depends on a good program with the right laying queens for your local environment. How can you find out what others are using in your local area with overwintering success? 
Over here I found out that the local environment is good for the Italians and Carnis. So I keep the Italian Cordovan. It is not hard to do a net search for a local queen farm either.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I have Local Buckfast strain and Carniolans from the NZ packages and some Italians from the Packages (they were all supposed to be Carni but I didn't care) I have some queens from last year that are a mixed breed from making splits and letting them raise their own. I requeened w/local queens all of my Italians from Australian packages because they were the meanest bees I ever had !

I suppose I like to keep different genetics or " not put all of my eggs in one basket" 

I will do some detective work on queen genetics at the AGM this coming March and see who is using what.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/winteringpdf.pdf

A good read toward the middle end mentioning the cold country bee specie. Perhaps you
can find them for your program.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

beepro said:


> http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/winteringpdf.pdf





> Domestication has muddied most natural racial populations. Consequently, a bee that externally looks ‘Italian’ or ‘Carniolan’ may not winter like either race should. When purchasing queens you should always look past superficial resemblance, and instead, choose on the basis of proven performance under your conditions.


This statement from the above document is most telling. There are no pure races in NA. Find a queen breeder that keeps their bees in similar or worse wintering conditions than yours.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I have had mixed results from various highly regarded queen suppliers. I think generally the suppliers have good genetics and do their best to make and ship good queens, but it is too cumbersome of a process for it to work well every time. If conditions are less than ideal at one small point in the entire process, the queen will be sub-standard regardless of how well everything else was done. Thus, it is unavoidable that sometimes you get good queens and sometimes you get substandard queens.

Whether it is shipping conditions or the unavoidable difficulties inherent in the commercial mass production of queens which cause substandard queens, it seems to me the better way to get good queens is to start with reasonably good genetics, such as from your local survivor stock, and then raise your own queens. 

By raising your own, you ensure that the queens receive the best possible treatment from the moment they are grafted until they are laying in their own hive, and, you avoid any possible shipping problems. Everything is under your control, except the weather, and so you make sure each step is done 100% right. If something does go wrong, you will know it and can fix it and start over.

Thinking that you are going to get consistently great queens by finding just the right supplier with the right genetics is chasing after a holy grail that doesn't exist.

JMHO


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## BeekeepingIsGood (Aug 12, 2012)

zhiv9 said:


> I bought VSH carniolan queens from Anicet Desrochers 2 years ago to make up overwintered nucs and they were good performers this year. They also seemed to have good varroa tolerance.


I'm looking at getting bees from him. How was the spring build up? Being Carniolan were you extra vigilant about watching for swarms?


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

Ben Little said:


> I hope to get some to try out next year, keep me posted on your wintering % with the Quebec stock
> 
> I bought 20 Olivarez Carni queens and I think I have 1-2 left out of 20, the rest were duds and I requeened with local stock, I won't make that mistake again. I am not sure why they were so poor but they were laying like crazy for about 1 month in a good nectar flow and they had lots of room to lay and they just seemed to shut down for whatever reason.


Ben, here are results: 

8 out of 10 colonies with Pope Canyon queens died
All of 20 colonies with Olivarez carnies survived, in good shape, only few of them started on sugar.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

BeekeepingIsGood said:


> I'm looking at getting bees from him. How was the spring build up? Being Carniolan were you extra vigilant about watching for swarms?


Last year was particularly swarmy and these were better than some my other stock. The bulk of what I have is more Carniolan in behaviour.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

MARBIS said:


> Ben, here are results:
> 
> 8 out of 10 colonies with Pope Canyon queens died
> All of 20 colonies with Olivarez carnies survived, in good shape, only few of them started on sugar.


I picked up a couple of Olivarez carnies last spring from beekeeper nearby that had some left over. Both colonies produced well and overwintered ok.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

MARBIS said:


> Ben, here are results:
> 
> 8 out of 10 colonies with Pope Canyon queens died
> All of 20 colonies with Olivarez carnies survived, in good shape, only few of them started on sugar.


Thanks, I am trying out another 50 Olivarez and 50 Konas this spring. Then I might get some local queens and make a hundred of my own or so.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Guys
I've been out of serious beekeeping for 6-7 years now and need some info and thought this thread might be a good place to start my search. For 15+ years we had collected various stock, selected breeders and set up drone matings yards to raise our own queens but when we sold off the operation we only maintained a few colonies. Over the last 2-3 years I see that we have lost alot of the genetic characteristics that we had tried so hard to maintain. In other words things are headed down hill fast and I'd like to insert some new stock as sometime in the next few years I want to retire from day job and build up a couple hundred colonies for retirement. 

So here is my question:

1) can we bring canadian queens into the US now? They were a significant component of our prior stock
2) is Tibor Szabo still working on selecting and breeding bees?

Any info would be appreciated


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

BigBlackBirds said:


> So here is my question:
> 
> 1) can we bring canadian queens into the US now? They were a significant component of our prior stock
> 2) is Tibor Szabo still working on selecting and breeding bees?
> ...


1) yes, but I believe there is a fair amount of red tape
2) yes, Tibor Jr is still breeding bees. His website is here: http://www.honeybees.ca/#products

There is also the Ontario Resistant Honey Bee Breeding Program: http://www.ontariobee.com/ORHBS


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

Thanks for the info zhiv9.

Guess I'm not surprised there would be red tape. It has been probably at least 12 maybe 15 years ago but we did acquire stock from multiple beekeepers by way of ontario previously. Recollection is red tape was bypassed by transferring using university here and University of Guelph. Think Szabo may have been working there at time but memory is a touch foggy on details now.

I did check out the website though. Thanks again


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