# Winter hive study and record keeping



## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I just winterized my hive last week and wanted to share what I have done and the records that I have kept so far, my interest was to see what the temperature readings were outside and inside the hive and how these effect condensation. I also wanted to see at what temperature the bees kept the inside of the hive and how that temperature is affected by what I do in winterizing it so as to give them the best of care throughout the winter. If the bees are too cold then they cannot move to new stores and they will starve, too warm would not be good either.

So to begin, the bees are clustered in the lower box of my two box deep hive and both boxes have stores with the top box being completely filled. I placed a queen excluder on the top box, then I placed a 2" high shim on top of the excluder with window screening stapled to the bottom, the shim has a 1/2" hole drilled through the front into the cedar chips that I placed inside. I then wrapped the hive in a very thin insulation wrap of fiber and plastic film less than 1/8" thick, then wrapped it with 15# felt paper. the insulation is thin enough to let the solar gain from the felt into the hive and help keep the hive insulated as well. then I placed a 1/2" thin plastic tube in through the vent hole to keep it open. On top of the shim I placed a plexiglass inner cover to see if any condensation accumulates and then placed a small piece of cardboard over the oval hole and a 1" dial thermometer with a 5" probe reaching down through the card board, cedar chips, and screening, it reaches 3" down in between the top two center frames to read internal temperatures. On top of all of this is 1/2" of sheeting foam for top insulation then the outer cover.

If anyone finds this helpful and wants to add to it then please do and we will all learn from the additional data. The pictures and data so far is as follows, and thanks.....Bill

The winterized hive









Close up of vent hole tube









Close up of thermometer and plexiglass inner cover









10/23/11 9:00am
34 deg outside temp
64 deg inside hive temp
sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/23/11 12:00 noon
54 deg outside temp
69 deg inside hive temp
sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity

10/23/11 4:00 pm
58 deg outside temp
70 deg inside hive temp
sunshine on hive
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity

10/27/11 6:00 pm
45 deg outside temp
64 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/28/11 8:00 am
31 deg outside temp
60 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/28/11 12:00 noon
40 deg outside temp
60 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive 
no entrance activity


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Bill,

Nice job. It's fascinating to know what's going on inside. On the days there was condensation, did you actually see it dripping out of the tube and if so, how much was it dripping? I look forward to your continuing to update us.

Charlie


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Charlie, I did not observe the condensation dripping although it might have when I was not present at the hive, but I did see it laying in the tube. If I had not placed the tube in the hole the condensation would have been absorbed by the surrounding wood and less detectable....Bill


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Update: I have noticed from this data that when the temperatures approach a 25 deg differential between the inside of the hive and the outside, then the occurrence of condensation forming in the vent tube seams to increase, this could indicate that if the temperature is at a 25 deg differential or more from over insulating of under ventilating, then this can cause an increase of moisture in the air inside the hive. But the situation can be aggravated if the top insulation under the outer cover is not sufficient to prevent condensation from forming above the cluster when the warm moist air inside and cold outside meet. What we do to prepare our bees for winter may not always be perfect but I can see from this study that we must strive to find the correct balance between insulation and ventilation for the climate where we live, and the 25 deg or less in differential may be a good indicator to help find this balance ....Bill

New data:

10/28/11 7:30 pm
40 deg outside temp
60 deg inside hive temp
dark and raining
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/29/11 12:00 noon
44 deg outside temp
54 deg inside hive temp
cloudy and damp from rain
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
1 bee flying

10/29/11 5:30 pm
48 deg outside temp
58 deg inside hive temp
cloudy and damp from rain
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/30/11 7:30 am
28 deg outside temp
53 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity


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## clgs (Aug 6, 2008)

Great data and experiment. Please keep posting through the winter, will be so helpful to see what happens with extended cold; cluster movement; and final spring outcome. Thanks for sharing with us.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks Charlie and clgs for the positive responses it is encouraging to see, I will keep the data coming as I am also curious as to what happens when the extended cold gets here and also the final spring outcome.


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## welldrainedsoil (Aug 1, 2010)

This is great WWW! I am glad to see pictures. I have about a week and I will be wrapping my hive. However, I think I am just going to wrap it with Tar Paper, no plastic. It is extremely dry here, although it get's cold. We had an 18 degree morning just a week ago, 65 degree days. I was thinking the plastic might hold in more moisture??? 

The plastic tube is a great idea. I think I'll borrow that if you don't mind. Are you going to supplement at all this winter? Sugar? Pollen Cakes??? 

I have about the same exact setup. Really strong hive this year.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Welldrainedsoil, Thanks for the compliments and please don't look at the tube idea as borrowed, but as shared, I don't mind at all. I do not plan to supplement at all this year because the bees seem to have all they will need, although in late winter as spring approaches I plan to have a look inside just to be on the safe side, and in early spring I will for sure feed substitute pollen patties for an early spring buildup.

As far as the plastic holding in more moisture it is always best to use your own judgment because your bees are in a different climate than mine, I used the same insulation last year and encountered no problems at all, I think the top ventilation and top insulation is the key to controlling the moisture inside the hive, but ventilation must be balanced with the outside wrap and the heat that is lost through the vent. In other words the bigger the vent hole the more the heat loss from inside the hive, the key is to use only the amount of venting necessary so there is not an excess of heat loss. This is what my study is all about, to find that balance and end up with what is best for my bees in the climate in which I live. Too much heat loss and the bees get too cold and are unable to move to find necessary stores, too warm the bees are saturated with moisture and could die from the condensation when the temperatures drop. I read someplace but cannot remember where that 40 to 45 deg was an ideal temperature for the hive during a very cold winter so as the weather turns colder I will be looking for this. Please keep in touch and let me know how things turn out with your winterizing.....Bill


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## buzzhageman (Jul 25, 2011)

WWW this is great thanks for sharing! Are you on a SBB?


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

I am not making any recommendations about wrapping or insulating, besides where I live it is not important. But do remember that the warmer the air in the hive is, the more humidity it can hold.

I have a remote temperature and relative humidity sensor display unit sitting besides me as I type. It displays temps and humidity as broadcast from a sensor mounted on the ceiling of my front porch. Both units run off AA batteries and I think the pickup is thin enough to fit inside a frame of drawn comb. It also displays the high and low temperatures from the previous day. I know relative humidity is not the same as condensation but there are correlations, IOW you can't have one without the other. The unit is sensitive enough to tell you whether the weather (temperature) is trending up, down or steady. 

The maker of this device is an outfit named ACU>RITE here is a link to my unit. I hope this gives you some ideas. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...6AE4BC0A1A7B66B2CD655C40333BD7B7E0748&first=0

BTW, my unit ALWAYS reads within a degree of the National Weather Service, or local TV weather (or is it whether) report. The broadcast range is around 100 feet or maybe it is a 100 yards, I forget, looked at to many different units before I picked this one.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Buzz. my hive is not on a sbb, I have a solid board, but I intend on looking into buying a sbb for the spring as it would help to keep my mite count down. Thank you for the compliment; and do you have bees of your own?


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## Sully1882 (Jul 18, 2011)

WWW,

great info and super interesting... looking forward to updates through the seasons to come! Thank you.

Sully


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## buzzhageman (Jul 25, 2011)

WWW Yes I am a first year beek with somewhat of a fascination for numbers and data. I am also a buckeye who has been transplated to Massachusetts but originally from Dayton. Did you see the Buckeye game WOW anyway keep the data coming as I stated before it is very interesting


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Srcrapfe, thanks for the reply and the info, it makes a lot of sense to me what you said about the warmer the air in the hive is the more humidity that it can hold, I will keep that in mind. And thank you for the info on the humidity sensor, I did not know there was such a thing, I will take a look at your link..Thanks again..Bill


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks Sully, I will endeavor to keep up the study throughout the winter and into spring....Bill


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

New data:
10/30/11 5:30 pm
52 deg outside temp
55 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

10/31/11 12:30 pm
51 deg outside temp
51 deg inside hive temp
cloudy & light rain
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/1/11 8:00 am
28 deg outside temp
50 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/1/11 12:00 noon
44 deg outside temp
51 deg inside hive temp
sunshine
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity

11/2/11 11:30 am
39 deg outside temp
58 deg inside hive temp
sunshine
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity starting

11/2/11 3:30 pm
63 deg outside temp
69 deg inside hive temp
sunshine
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

you seriously need to get this data in table format on a website somewhere. messing about with numbers is great fun.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

libhart said:


> you seriously need to get this data in table format on a website somewhere. messing about with numbers is great fun.


Libhart, I do not know what table format is and would not know how to enter it on any other website than here, but I appreciate your enthusiasm.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Update: condensation in vent tube when temperature differential is over 30 degrees in the early morning.

11/3/11 7:30 am
39 deg outside temp
61 deg inside hive temp
early morning
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/4/11 7:00 pm
56 deg outside hive
68 deg inside hive temp
late evening
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/5/11 8:00 am
30 deg outside hive temp
63 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/6/11 8:00 am
28 deg outside hive
60 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

What a great thread, thanks for starting and keeping it updated!


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

My pleasure Ray, my pleasure.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Bill,

Looks like the vent is doing it's job. This is so cool..no pun intended!


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Charlie B said:


> Bill,
> 
> Looks like the vent is doing it's job. This is so cool..no pun intended!


Charlie, I agree, the vent seems to be working perfectly, I am exited about seeing what happens when the weather gets colder.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I have been trying to wait for some colder weather to make another post hoping to get some cold weather data, however last weekend my bees were bringing in a light cream colored pollen. It was cold this morning so I will post what I have so far. Data as follows:

11/11/11 7:00 am
35 deg outside temp
59 deg inside hive temp
early morning no sun
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/11/11 12:30 pm
40 deg outside temp
59 deg inside hive temp
sunshine
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
limited entrance activity

11/18/11 7:00 am
27 deg outside temp
52 deg inside hive temp
early morning no sun
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity


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## GaWoods (Jun 18, 2011)

Great post. Very interesting information.

Thank you for sharing your research.

Mike


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

GaWoods said:


> Great post. Very interesting information.
> 
> Thank you for sharing your research.
> 
> Mike


Thanks Mike, I will do my best.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

New Thanksgiving Data:

11/24/11 9:00 am
34 deg outside temp
53 deg inside hive temp
no sunshine
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/25/11 6:00 am
27 deg outside temp
47 deg inside hive temp
dark
condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
no entrance activity

11/25/11 12:00 noon
51 deg outside hive temp
48 deg inside hive temp
sunshine 
no condensation in vent
no condensation in hive
entrance activity


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## gjd (Jan 26, 2011)

www, I just noticed this thread or I would have responded earlier, not sure how I missed it. If you have your hives within a few hundred feet of your house with broadband (always connected) internet, you will love this:
http://www.lacrossetechnology.com/weatherdirect.php

La Crosse makes a lot of the electronic wx sensors you see everywhere now, but also has the Weather Direct product-- plug a base station into an internet router (e.g. WiFi box), and it will pick up sensors up to 100-200 feet away. Sensors record temperature, humidity at the sensor, and an additional temperature from a small probe on a 3' wire. The data is sent to the La Cross web site periodically- from seconds to 30 minutes-- and you can look at it there, or download the last (approx) 1000 readings into an .xls data file on your computer that can be looked at with Excel or equivalent (I use the free OpenOffice Calc program). And graphed, although that's turned out to be a bit more tedious than I hoped. All the web stuff is free, you just buy the equpiment, and it's not that expensive considering what it's doing.

Two quick comments-- your temps 10-20F above outside are directly above the bees, if I understand it-- I've seen this consistently in both Langstroth and a top bar hive, with various feeding chambers set up above the hives. The temp lower down on the sides is probably very close to outside temperature. Like your house, insulation in the attic is the main factor.

The condensation in the tube is probably not closely related to what's happening on the underside of the inner cover-- Last year I stapled a fold of plastic over my upper vent to block wind, and found it was great for piece of mind-- it would often frost up slightly from the warm moist air venting out, letting me know they were still alive (before my wireless thermometers). But that is because the plastic (and your tube) is basically at outside temperature, with a flow of warmer air going past it. The inner cover is insulated and kept warmer by the rising warmth from the cluster, reducing condensation on the surface. So I'd predict the plexiglass will show much less frequent condensation than the tube. Monitoring the plexiglass inner cover is a great idea. I predict that if you've got it well insulated you'll get no significant condensation or only at 4 am on frigid nights.

Greg


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Greg, Thank you for all the input I really appreciate it, I like the sensors and record keeping device that you mentioned but there are a few things that get in the way of me taking advantage of it. I have no broadband or WiFi at this location and if I did it would still be difficult for me to accomplish because I really struggle with tech gadgets, other kind people have responded to this thread and offered similar suggestions and I have had to disappoint them with the explanation that I have never been exposed to that type of thing which makes me rather dense where computers and tech gadgets are concerned but your enthusiasm is appreciated. 

Your two quick comments on temperature and condensation are right down the line my thoughts exactly, you have very good insight into what my study is about, and what is happening inside the hive, incredible. I will be adding to my data soon, I am waiting for the weather to turn colder so as to input some newer colder weather readings, thanks again for posting......Bill


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## gjd (Jan 26, 2011)

I understand, although the La Crosse stuff is really quite well done and surprisingly easy- but without an always-on internet connection within 100-200 feet, quite useless. Getting pretty plots from Microsoft Excel spreadsheets is the hardest part. Your setup with the probe sticking down into it is just as effective for what you're measuring-- and no batteries to go dead in February! And I've struggled with where to put the sensors inside the hives. 

The one interesting advantage to the electronic probes, including ones that don't need an internet connection but just transmit to a display that could be sitting right outside the hive, are that some of them make relative humidity measurements. Condensation on that inner cover will happen when the temperature of the cover is at or below the dew point of the air just next to it, and that dew point depends on the air temperature and the relative humidity-- so an electronic probe under the cover can tell you both those, and a dew point calculator or table will give you that-- for example, http://www.decatur.de/javascript/dew/index.html. A cluster giving off 50F at 50% relative humidity has a dew point of 32F-- an inner cover colder than that will have condensation from a rising column of warm moist air from the cluster. Without insulation above it, that's pretty easy in my climate in MA, cold and relatively humid in winter. But again, your plexiglass will do the testing job cheaper, easier and more reliably-- you just need to get out there to take a peek when things are at their coldest, and I get to stay inside. I'm looking forward to following the results. 

You may find this interesting:
http://beenatural.wordpress.com/observations/condensation/
Greg


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I have come to the sad conclusion that my hive study for this year will have to be abandoned, I have discovered that my data entries were wrong concerning condensation in the hive, I lifted up the tar paper on top of the hive today and found condensation in the rear part of the hive formed under the plexi inner cover, although the cedar chips and frames were dry. Previously I only looked through the center hole and missed seeing what had been forming under the felt paper. I did discover that the front half of the hive where the vent hole is was dry as a bone, and the cedar chips under the plexi was dry even where the condensation had formed in the rear. So the hive did stay dry up to this point and it was only the plexi that was wet. I have decided to end the study for this year and give some further thought to my winterizing plans and see if I can figure what needs changed to reduce condensation and heat loss at the same time....Bill


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Bill,

What you did provide was very interesting. I was fascinated to see the temperature differences between inside and out. Some of our bee club members were following along as well and they thought it was great. It would be easy to miss a little condensation so don't feel bad. Great project and thanks for sharing.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

Hi Bill,

I think those two things, reduce condensation and heat loss. Venting moist air requires venting heat as well. So I guess an incredible amount of insulation might be the only thing I can imagine that would do it.

That said, I'm not sure it's possible to ever completely prevent condensation up at that layer that's immediately under the outer cover, even w/insulation there, and I think your design is sound. You've got a bit of condensation but that's why you have the cedar chips there. Should any of that condensation drip back down it would drip on the chips, not back down on the bees.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Thank you Charlie B for your kindness, I am happy that you and others in your club enjoyed this study. And Libhart I think your analysis makes a lot of sense, I may actually have the correct balance of condensation and heat loss. I suppose that I was looking at it from the perspective of trying to get rid of all condensation when that would be impossible without total heat loss. In light of your analysis I guess I did find what I was looking for, it just came a little differently than I expected. It would be interesting to add 1/2" foam insulation around the hive and see how that would affect the internal temperature; would the balance of heat loss and condensation remain the same? Thanks again everyone for your kindness....I have been enlightened....Bill


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

WWW said:


> I have come to the sad conclusion that my hive study for this year will have to be abandoned, I have discovered that my data entries were wrong concerning condensation in the hive,...Bill


Bill,

Please don't be so hard on yourself. YOU WERE NOT WRONG! Your bees are dry and you have good temperature data. You're adding more pieces to this complex balancing of moisture and condensation puzzle. I applaud you for taking this "bull by the horns" and doing what more of us should be doing..getting hard data to support the anecdotal information on this forum.

Also, you've inspired some of the rest of us to take on similar projects. I'm one of those you've inspired. I got one of those wireless temp/humidity indoor/outdoor thermometers, a MEADE TM005X-M (How can you go wrong with a name like that! I just got it a few days ago, so I don't have much data, but it's coming along. Now if someone can help me figure out how to post an Excel wooksheet, I'd add that info to this puzzle.

Don't abandon the study, just tweak it or use the data to guide you to your next improvement.

We need more folks like you to inspire us!

Thanks, Steve Burton


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_reading_posting#faq_vb3_attachments


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Steve, I suppose my thinking was that when I found the condensation under the plexi glass the whole study was messed up because the previous data about condensation in the hive was in error, it kind of knocked the wind out of me. You and the others who respond to this thread have encouraged me to continue, but in continuing I will look at the study not as fixed and inflexible but as a ever changing and evolving to correct any miscalculations as winter progresses in order to keep the bees in good health and find the proper balance for the bees to survive, and I will post any changes that I make. I have accepted the fact now that condensation does exist inside the hive and finding the correct balance of minimal condensation and minimal heat loss is the important thing to keep the bees dry and warm enough to move to new stores thus avoiding starvation. You and the others are an inspiration to me as well so I will continue...Thanks....Bill


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Barry, thanks I'll see about getting the info posted.

WWW, great to hear! Keep at it. We need every bit of unbiased data we can get. Let the data lead you in the direction it takes you. I can't speak for everyone else, but I hazard a guess we've all learned something that didn't quite go the way we thought it would go. Keep trying...your bees are counting on you!


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

We're all counting on you! I don't think you realize the following you have. Do you know how much fun it was to get another update and check the temps?. C'mon, it's making my boring winter bearable!! :applause:


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Thank you Steve and Charlie, You guys humble me, I will give it my best.


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## clgs (Aug 6, 2008)

I'm so glad you're going to continue!!! Thank you. Your study is not flawed, we just have to understand more specifically where you were taking your observations from. Please keep posting the same so we can see if it changes as the season progresses. Good science is reporting to the best of our limited abilities to observe or measure what is going on. Being able to better define an observation point just makes your study more valuable and rigorous. Also being able to define uncertainties and areas of concern is a hallmark of good science.

Thank you for all your hard work and the reporting.
:applause:


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

clgs, thanks for the uplifting words of advice, my study will continue with new vigor and additional data, I have placed a second thermometer into the lower box to read cluster heat with some amazing results. The new data should be available by tonight after final readings, and I will attempt to give weekly updates weekly on Sunday night from this point on as long as there are no unavoidable circumstances......Bill


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

This past weekend I have placed a thermometer in the bottom box with very interesting results, I am pretty sure that I am picking up cluster temperature, or at least partial cluster temperature. With the outside temperatures at 17 deg. it was the coldest night so far this winter.

12/11/11 9:30 am
17 deg outside temp
49 deg upper box temp
70 deg lower box temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation frost in vent
no condensation under plexi
no entrance activity

12/11/11 12:00 noon
34 deg outside temp
47 deg upper box temp
64 deg lower box temp
sunshine on hive
no condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi
no entrance activity

12/11/11 4:30 pm
34 deg outside temp
55 deg upper box temp
59 deg lower box temp
sunshine on hive
no condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi
no entrance activity


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

WWW said:


> 12/11/11 9:30 am
> 17 deg outside temp
> 49 deg upper box temp
> 70 deg lower box temp
> ...


That is fascinating. That's a lot of energy expended keeping a hive that warm all winter.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Charlie, yes the findings were interesting on that early morning, and as the day progressed and the higher heat was no longer needed the cluster cooled off a bit. Perhaps the sunshine warming the hive allowed them to dial down their heating work and so the condensation in the vent disappeared as well.


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## gjd (Jan 26, 2011)

www, a lot of science is trying to figure out what the correct experiment should be by fiddling around with stuff that doesn't work out as expected. The more that didn't work out as planned, the more you've learned that you maybe didn't even know you didn't know.

I understand the first thermometer is a meat-thermometer-style probe sticking down inches below the center of the wood chip quilt. How did you get a thermometer into the lower box, and where is the probe measuring? 

The bees would produce more respiration moisture in a cold night, but if your tube is in the sunlight, it may also be drying out in the sun, and not necessarily be a really direct measure of what's happening inside. It's telling you a lot, but in a complex way, depending on the outside temperature, inside temperature and humidity, and sunlight on the tube. An analogy would be my old single-pane windows that condense and frost up overnight. You could look at the house from outside at daybreak and figure out where we slept by which windows had the most frost inside. But they dry out during the day mostly because the sun hits them, not because of what we do inside.

I get lots of variation in my in-hive probe temperatures, and suspect it's how the probe is positioned with respect to the cluster. In very cold temps the cluster will tighten up, and the cluster will presumably move around the hive a bit day-to-day. So I may see 65F one time, and 80F another even with similar outside overnight temperature, depending on whether the cluster happens to be surrounding the probe, or just nearby. It'll be interesting to see if the patterns repeat predictably over long times; that'll help you figure out the reasons.

An interesting thing to do would be a probe in an area they'd rarely cluster in, like a lower corner. That would give you some additional information about how the entire hive was warming up in the sunlight, outside the cluster itself. I've only managed to do that in a top bar hive, which has some different heat characteristics, but it's usually only about 5 degrees F above outside.

This is really interesting, keep it going!
Greg


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Greg, I placed the second thermometer into a small divit between the two box's, directly in the center and front of the hive. This places it at the top of the lower box, but I do not know if it is entering the cluster or the wax comb or just open space for that matter but it is evident that the cluster is at this location. I like your idea of placing more probes at different areas in the hive, I will look to see if I can accomplish that this coming weekend, right know I have the two thermometers at the top of both box's. Repeatability of the data is of interest to me as well so I will keep the data coming and update on Sunday evenings barring any unforseen interuptions.

You might just be correct with the moisture analisis of the vent tube, the sun was on the hive during the last two readings and my hive faces southeast into the sun. This is something that I will look at more closely in the future. 

Thanks for all of your input, it helps me to sort out all the variables in this study, and please keep us all updated as to your own progress in your hive temperature study, I do not have a top bar hive so that input would be valuable as well.....Bill


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

New data update coming in early, the 5:00 pm data block is reconfigured to accommodate another thermometer and all thermometer locations, so there are now four temperature readings from this point on to show more detail into what is happening inside the hive.These readings suggest to me that the bees are heating the cluster, the heat is radiating from the cluster and is rising inside the hive box's resulting in the hive box's being heated by the cluster, ultimately resulting in heat loss through the walls and top, and at a faster pace through the vent taking moisture with it......Bill

12/16/11 10:00 am
34 deg. outside temp
57 deg. upper box temp
61 deg. lower box temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexi
no entrance activity

12/16/11 12:00 noon
34 deg. outside temp
56 deg. upper box temp
71 deg. lower box temp
no sunshine on hive
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexi
no entrance activity

12/16/11 5:00 pm
36 deg. outside temp
55 deg. top center of upper box temp
63 deg. top front of lower box temp
44 deg. top rear of lower box temp
condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity


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## gjd (Jan 26, 2011)

Bill, it's interesting that the plexiglass condensation was gone by 5 pm, without direct sun heating the hive top and the outside temperature apparently staying quite constant (assuming nothing significant happened between 12 and 5). That seems like a lot of moisture would need to come out of that little tube by convection. My intuition fails again! If you see this pattern repeatedly, an interesting test would be to block up the vent one day to see if that changed things noticeably, and prevented the plexiglass from drying out. The tricky part is that it might also be affected by sunlight or warmer daytime temperatures-- it's hard to change just one variable at a time in the experiment to be certain what's controlling the result. It'll also be interesting to see if you can estimate where the bees are from the multiple thermometers as the winter progresses.
Greg


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Greg, I have been able to see as you have that doing just one thing to the hive affects several other things creating a situation where everything that one does to a hive needs to be in balance with nature. We have created an artificial environment when we placed them into the box and as I have discovered, establishing that natural balance in the box can be tricky but it is possible. You and others who have posted to this thread have helped me to see that just because a little condensation appears under the plexiglass does not mean that things are not right, we can live with a little bit of condensation at times to prevent the loss of to much heat through a larger vent hole which would leave the bees without the heat needed to move to new honey stores during long periods of extreme cold. So far it appears that I have found a natural balance in the hive which really thrills me to no end. I am interested in your idea of closing the vent hole at some point to see what happens, that would be a very interesting experiment.

You were speaking of cluster location, and from the temperature readings I am able to say that the cluster is located at the front of the hive in the lowed box, however I am unable to tell where they are to the very inch, although they are in this location. If they were above the lower front thermometer I do not think that the readings would be as high as they are because the heat is rising in the hive due to convection. I also know that they are not up into the upped box, or at least not very far up into it because I placed a plastic ring into the cedar chip shim the other day, right around the upper central thermometer which now gives me the ability to see into the top hive box and see if the bees are moving up. Thanks for all your input Greg, its very much appreciated......Bill


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Weekend update with data remaining relatively constant. However condensation did form under the plexi-glass when sunshine was on the hive for about four hours......Bill

12/17/11 12:15 pm
32 deg outside temp
52 deg top center of upper box temp
68 deg top front of lower box temp
39 deg top rear of lower box temp
condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi-glass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

12/17/11 4:00 pm
33 deg outside temp
51 deg top center of upper box temp
70 deg top front of lower box temp
39 deg top rear of lower box temp 
condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi-glass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

12/18/11 9:00 am
32 deg outside temp
48 deg top center of upper box temp
68 deg top front of lower box temp
37 deg top rear of lower box temp
condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi-glass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

12/18/11 3:00 pm
45 deg outside temp
53 deg top center of upper box temp
68 deg top front of lower box temp
42 deg top rear of lower box temp
condensation in vent
condensation in rear 1/4 under plexi-glass
sunshine on hive
no entrance activity


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Bill,

When you say condensation, is it enough to drip or just enough to tell it's wet?


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Charlie, the condensation under the plexi-glass amounts to only a slight dampness on the glass with no dripping, thanks.......Bill


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Christmas day update, I added yet another thermometer, this one measures the felt paper wrap on the hive with some interesting results, the felt wrap reached 117 degrees at noon with the sun at its highest point. I used a larger dial thermometer that would cover a larger area on the felt and read the temperature from the felt surface.

larger Thermometer for felt temperature hanging under vent hole









12/24/11 12:00 noon
37 deg outside temp
54 deg top center of upper box temp
62 deg top front of lower box temp
43 deg top rear of lower box temp
117 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexi
sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

12/24/11 12:30 pm
38 deg outside temp 
55 deg top center of upper box temp
66 deg top front of lower box temp
44 deg top rear of lower box temp
110 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexi
sunshine on hive 
one bee milling around entrance

12/25/11 8:00 am
31 deg outside temp
50 deg top center of upper box temp
64 deg top front of lower box temp
37 deg top rear of lower box temp
31 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexi
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

12/25/11 10:00 am
34 deg outside temp
50 deg top center of upper box temp
70 deg top front of lower box temp
37 deg top rear of lower box temp
43 deg front of hive felt wrap temp -- (This temp raised with the cluster temp in the lower box while no sunshine was on the hive) 
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexi
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I got a high reading today of 140 deg on the felt paper at 12:00 noon, this is the time that the sun is delivering its highest thermal energy. there were no clouds in the sky so the hive received the suns full intensity, the previous report of 12/24/11 was 117 deg at noon but the sky was partly cloudy which reduced the thermal energy. I have included a picture of the thermometer taken at about 12:20 pm today as the readings on the thermometer started to drop away from 140 deg. The amount of heat collected in the felt is amazing.

12/26/11 12:00 noon
41 deg outside temp
52 deg top center of upper box temp
63 deg top front of lower box temp
43 deg top rear of lower bow temp
140 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
no condensation in vent
light condensation under entire plexi
sunshine on hive 
no entrance activity

Temperature starting to drop from previous 140 deg


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Hey everybody, I am adding only one data block tonight as I am looking for the weather to get colder and cold weather study is the reason this thread was started. We have been experiencing such warm weather so far that it has been hard to get good cold weather data, but I look for that to change real soon. As far as I can see the bees are still in the lower box.

12/31/11 9:30 am
44 deg outside temp
58 deg top center of upper box temp
61 deg top front of lower box temp
46 deg top rear of lower box temp
44 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
slight condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi glass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

What a warm and beautiful weekend with the bees out flying in good numbers, I recorded one data block that showed an indication that the bees were moving up into the top box. The felt wrap thermometer reached 55 deg while the outside temperature was 33 deg with no sunshine on the hive, indicating that the bees had moved up to where the felt thermometer is on the hive and the cluster heat was emanating through the box. I looked under the cover and could see bees walking around on the tops of the frames in the top box, so it was confirmed that they are on the move. The readings are as follows.

1/8/12 10:00 am
33 deg outside temp
62 deg top center of upper box temp
56 deg top front of lower box temp
43 deg top rear of lower box temp
55 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexi glass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm not sure I'm going to have winter here, it's been in the 50's for the last week. My bees are flying, at least a few of them, so I know they are still alive. I hope they don't eat the entire candy board before spring!

It will be interesting to see what the temperatures in your hive are when and if it really turns off to be winter sometime.

Peter


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

The cold and snow are finally here, this morning we had an inch of snow on the ground which stayed all day. Here are the updates for this weekend. 

1/13/12 12:00 noon
19 deg outside temp
46 deg top center of upper box temp
63 deg top front of lower box temp
50 deg top rear of lower box temp
50 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
condensation ice in vent
no condensation under plexiglass
no sunshine on hive/ wind blowing
no entrance activity

1/14/12 8:00 am
21 deg outside temp
42 deg top center of upper box temp
61 deg top front of lower box temp
48 deg top rear of lower box temp
22 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
frosted condensation in vent
no condensation under plexiglass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

1/14/12 10:30 am
23 deg outside temp
42 deg top center of upper box temp
64 deg top front of lower box temp
48 deg top rear of lower box temp
40 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
frosted condensation in vent
no condensation under plexiglass
no sunshine on hive 
no entrance activity


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Here are the weekend updates for this week, I think we are getting the cold weather that Peter ( psfred ) was looking for. These data blocks were all recorded before noon on the same day to see if the cluster movement could be observed with temps in the mid teens. While the outside temperatures changed only slightly the internal hive temperatures seemed to change at a faster rate as it appeared that the cluster was moving. There was no sunshine on the hive but the daylight was getting brighter at the approach of noontime; I wonder if daylight entering the front entrance had any affect on the cluster movements?

It is interesting to note that the top center of the upper box temperature remains constant while the other temperatures fluctuated.

1/20/12 8:00 am
15.8 deg outside temp
41 deg top center of upper box temp
57 deg top front of lower box temp
48 deg top rear of lower box temp
19 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
frosted condensation in vent
no condensation under plexiglass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

1/20/12 9:30 am
16.8 deg outside temp
41 deg top center of upper box temp
61 deg top front of lower box temp
46 deg top rear of lower box temp
26 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
frosted condensation in vent
no condensation under plexiglass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

1/20/12 10:00 am
17.7 deg outside temp
41 deg top center of upper box temp
59 deg top front of lower box temp
46 deg top rear of lower box temp
31 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
frosted condensation in vent
no condensation under plexiglass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity

1/20/12 11:00 am
19 deg outside temp
41 deg top center of upper box temp
56 deg top front of lower box temp
46 deg top rear of lower box temp
37 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
condensation in vent ( the frost melted at this point )
no condensation under plexiglass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Temperatures at the freezing point and very windy today, and for this weekend update the hive seems to be colder at most thermometer locations except for the upper box center location. We are looking for a warm Monday and Tuesday with temps into the lower to mid 50's for this upcoming week so the bees should be out taking cleansing flights. New data block as follows.....

1/29/12 10:00 am
32 deg outside temp
43 deg top center of upper box temp
55 deg top front of lower box temp
36 deg top rear of lower box temp
60 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
condensation in vent
no condensation under plexiglass
sunshine on hive
no entrance activity


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## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

I too have been monitoring the temperature of my two hives. They were both started from packages this past spring. Going into winter, they may have been a little light on stores, so I've been giving them candy to supplement. I think they still have honey stores, but when the temps get up into the 50's, I've been checking on them. The weather in SE PA has been mild this winter, so they have been able to break cluster and use the candy. I added some pollen substitute for protein.

I knew I wanted to have really good ventilation, so I made a couple of these boxes in October and added them to the hives. Each hive was a 4 medium box stack, with the top box being all honey. The boxes under had some additional stores. The fifth box was a quilt box as shown in the link below.

http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php 

I have an accu-rite thermometer fished into the THSC_Unit and fed down to the very top center of the 4th box (where the candy is). All winter, both hives have read in the range of 77-90 degrees. I went out on the coldest morning we had (11 degrees F) and the box readings were 84.5 and 85.7 degrees.

This past week we have had a few days over 50, so they have been busy flying.

In the next week or so, I'm hoping to get another mild day where I can add pollen patties to the hives.

Good luck to all, not long till the thaw!


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

A very interesting read on wintering hives PAHunter, please keep us updated on your hives, I am looking forward to spring as well.....Bill


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

The hive temperatures had quite a roller coaster ride this weekend, when I checked on the hive Thursday evening the center of the top box was reading 80 deg. and the other thermometers were up as well. I was sure that the bees had to have brood in there but as the weekend wore on the temperatures slowly dropped to what might be considered normal for this time of the year, but this has left me to wonder what is happening inside the hive, it seems to me that they were gearing up to raise brood and then shut back down when the temperatures dropped this weekend. New data blocks as follows....Bill 

2/2/12 6:00 pm
45 deg outside temp
80 deg top center of upper box temp
77 deg top front of lower box temp
68 deg top rear of lower box temp
46 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
no condensation in vent
heavy condensation front to back under plexiglass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity
The daytime temperatures have been unseasonably high all week

2/3/12 4:00 pm
50 deg outside temp
75 deg top center of upper box temp
79 deg top front of lower box temp
61 deg top rear of lower box temp
70 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
no condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexiglass 
sunshine on hive
strong entrance activity

2/4/12 8:30 am
38 deg outside temp
70 deg top center of upper box temp
59 deg top front of lower box temp
50 deg top rear of lower box temp
40 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
condensation in vent
condensation under rear 1/4 of plexiglass
no sunshine on hive 
no entrance activity

2/5/12 11:30 am
40 deg outside temp
59 deg top center of upper box temp
68 deg top front of lower box temp
46 deg top rear of lower box temp
130 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
condensation in vent
slight condensation under front and rear of plexiglass
sunshine on hive
slight entrance activity

2/5/12 1:15 pm
43 deg outside temp
61 deg top center of upper box temp
77 deg top front of lower box temp
48 deg top rear of lower box temp
125 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
no condensation in vent
slight condensation under front and rear of plexiglass
sunshine on hive
moderate entrance activity


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

We have engaged the cold winter this weekend with sustained temperatures in the teens but the beehive has remained constant in its internal temperatures. The current outside temperature is 16 degrees, but during the middle of the night my weather channel digital thermometer recorded 14 degrees which has been our lowest so far. I am entering one data block as it reflects the entire weekend.

2/12/12 8:00 am
16 deg outside temp
45 deg top center of upper box temp
64 deg top front of lower box temp
24 deg top rear of lower box temp
20 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
Heavy frosted condensation in vent
slight condensation under front and rear of plexiglass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Yet another warm weekend with the bees out and about bringing in yellow and tan color pollen, I have no Idea where they are getting it from. I decided to try and lift the front of the hive to get an idea of stores amount, upon giving it a tug I found it to be very heavy, obviously plenty of honey left. I am hoping to start feeding pollen sub and 1:1 syrup to stimulate brood rearing sometime in the first week of March if this warm weather holds out. Here is this weekends data block:

2/18/12 5:00 pm
48 deg outside temp
67 deg top center of upper box temp
79 deg top front of lower box temp
52 deg top rear of lower box temp
56 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
no condensation in vent
lite to moderate condensation under plexi glass
partly cloudy sunshine on hive and windy
moderate entrance activity


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

A very windy and cold weekend but it did warm up by Sunday, I decided to place a pollen patty on top of the frames as a trial to see if they were ready to take it because I found a post pupa stage bee laying on the landing board, it had the appearance of having just been pulled from its cell. So I removed the cedar chips screening and queen excluder that was supporting everything, removing these opened up the inside of the shim so that I could start caring for the bees, they are in the upper deep box and there were a number of them lined up peeking out from between the frames looking and waiting to see what my next move would be. As I was placing the pollen on the frames they started jumping onto my fingers in an attack posture, I just shook them off and kept working in a deliberate manner till finished, then I placed the plexiglass inner cover back on and closed the hive. Going back a few hours later I could see them happily working on the pollen sub, I will give you the data block and then a picture of the bees through the plexi glass, however I had a hard time with glare so my apology's for the poor image, and a picture of the vent hole where I placed some sisal rope fiber into the hole to slow down the heat loss a little since the cedar chips have been removed .....Bill 


2/25/12 7:00 am
30 deg outside temp
75 deg top center of upper box temp
70 deg top front of lower box temp
46 deg top rear of lower box temp
30 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
no condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi glass
no sunshine on hive
no entrance activity


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

We have had a rainy weekend with wind and tornado warnings, however the sun came out today with 45 deg temperatures. The bees are working on the pollen sub however not very aggressively, which is an indication to me that they still have an adequate supply of pollen yet in the hive. The bees are maintaining an 80 deg temperature in the center of the top box where the cluster is still located. The bees also have pulled the sisal rope fibers from the vent hole, I can only assume that it was not needed or not wanted so I have left it open. Data block as follows:


3/3/12 10:00 am
40 deg outside temp
80 deg top center of upper box temp
74 deg top front of lower box temp
54 deg top rear of lower box temp
110 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
no condensation in vent
slight condensation around the outer edges under plexi glass
sunshine on hive
entrance activity starting


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Today was a big day for my hive, they had two orientation flights lasting 1/2 an hour each. The amount of workers coming and going increased to three times as many as the day before, and they are now bringing in three times as much pollen, the entrance to the hive had to be opened wider to accommodate the numbers, I was so happy to see them doing so well. This is an indication that the brood has emerged and the queen made it through the winter ok. New data blocks as follows: 


3/11/12 8:00 am
32 deg outside temp
80 deg top center of upper box temp
68 deg top front of lower box temp
48 deg top rear of lower box temp
32 deg top front of hive felt wrap temp
condensation in vent
condensation under edges of plexi glass
no sunshine on hive
light entrance activity
bees active and eating pollen sub


3/11/12 5:00 pm
64 deg outside temp
86 deg top center of upper box temp
88 deg top front of lower box temp
73 deg top rear of lower box temp
75 deg front of hive felt wrap temp
no condensation in vent
no condensation under plexi glass
sunshine on hive
heavy entrance activity
pollen sub being consumed at a faster rate


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Congrats Bill, you made it! :applause:


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks Charlie, that's very kind of you, the flight was thrilling to watch.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Spring is arriving early in my part of Ohio and with it my hive has come alive and populated with young bees, yesterday the foragers tripled in numbers after two orientation flights coinciding with the start of the early pollen season. The ten day forecast shows highs in the 60's and 70's during the day and in the 40's at night. I feel it is time to close this winter study and so I want to thank everyone who lent their support to my efforts. I can now say with conviction that I have successfully determined how to winterize my hive in preparation for winters in the future. The setup will be the same as what I have already done this past winter with the exception of the hive wrap, I plan on making it removable so that late winter inspections can be done more easily and then the hive re-wrapped. I am very satisfied that the 1/2" vent hole was perfect for releasing the humidity from inside the hive without excessive heat loss, it ended up being the perfect balance. 

When the hive displayed DWV symptoms in October indicating a heavy mite infestation, I had to act fast or there was a real good chance that I would loose the hive in mid winter. After treating the hive with Oxalic acid vapors the mite population was knocked down to a point that the bees were able to handle the cold weather very well.

The hive is currently still very heavy with honey stores, I am unable to weigh the hive due to the poor condition of the lower box, so an exact calculation of winter stores consumption would be difficult to determine other than to say that the hive is currently extremely heavy when lifting it from the back side.

A split and two brand new hives await me and the bees in the coming months ahead if the Lord is willing to grant me this, I thank you all for your support and participation. I consider this study successfully concluded and again I thank you all.....Bill


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Thank you Bill for your dedication to everyone on this site for offering your hive as a test case on humidity and overwintering. Now, for your next study. Please show us how to prevent swarming! :lookout:


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I will see what I can do Charlie, LOL.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Bump for some good reading on wrapping and moisture issues.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

thanks for bumping! I'm inspired to try this with a top bar hive!


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