# Carniolan vs. Italian



## jhrusky (Jun 10, 2013)

I am contemplating Carniolan bees as opposed to Italian bees. I'd like some knowledgeable advice on this. We are in central Wisconsin, so our winters can get cold. It appears Carniolan's may be more gentle that Italians and may also create comb better as well as start their gathering faster which is all good. The negatives I've read is that they are more prone to swarming, and honey processing is not quite as good. What does honey processing mean? That one confuses me. Is it the quality of honey or something else? 

As to swarming, if a person keeps close watch to ensure they do not get crowded, is that still a problem with them?


Thanks.


----------



## dr4ngas (Mar 19, 2014)

What does honey processing mean? 

It means how much honey the colony will make for you. Example Italian bees could make you a 100 pounds of honey verse carniolan bees my make only 60 pounds of honey.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The way I see it:
If I bought ten packages of Carnolian (or Italian) honeybees then installed them in ten hives 8 out of ten would supercede almost immediately. The new queens would mate with a hodge-podge of local drones and I'd end up with a bunch of mutts. 
SO WHY NOT SKIP A COUPLE STEPS AND GO STRAIGHT FOR LOCAL MUTTS? 
You're going to end up there soon enough anyway.

My own apiary started with two packages from Georgia. Got tired of waiting on swarms and cutouts so I dove in and bought some bees. Within a month I had many more colonies I'd "collected" locally. The two from Georgia: One superceded then dwindled and the other had some issues. 
Looking back and counting hives I know I'd have done better to just wait a few more weeks. If I had I'd have saved myself $230. 
Those Georgia bees didn't even make it to the first winter.


----------



## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Personally, I don't want bees that will be brooding up when it's the middle of winter. Italians will do just that. They do produce a lot of honey. They'll rob all your other hives too. 

Carniolans are great for my climate. That fast spring build-up, frugal use of food, and decent cold weather tolerance.

But even better are locally mated carni-mutts. 
This is all personal preference for my location.

Bees swarm due to a lot of factors. I suppress them by "opening the broodnest." Also "checkerboarding" my supers.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesexperiment.htm#checkerboarding
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesexperiment.htm#openingthebroodnest

And If they decide to prepare to swarm, (IE queen cells) then I split the hive.


----------



## nediver (May 26, 2013)

Agree with Learning2Bee all of it. 

I started with Carni and moved to Italians. They get huge if they make it through winter which is great for honey and making more bees. I have had as much luck with Italians in winter at Carni and I am in New England. Try both that's part of the fun in keeping bees.


----------



## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

I agree. Try them both. I really do like all of them. They're even better once the queen gets superceded and mates with a local drone.


----------



## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Are there true Carnis or Italians in the US?

I think here we have only mutts left with more or less characteristics of different breeds


----------



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

The best honeybee is an alive honeybee!


----------



## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

Italians are nice to make early splits with if you feed over winter and are super gentle. But robbing can be problematic and a total pita to deal with if it starts.


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I love carnies. The ones I have had have been calm little kittens with wings, very easy to work with. I was used to larger colony sizes with Italians but the carnies made a lot of honey too. Now my bees are a mixture of carnies and Italians which suit my desire for an early spring buildup I rigidly cull out colonies with an attitude and try to maintain the mix when I bring in outside queens. I have not problem wintering either type. I just eliminate any that are too far into the emergency food they all get by using those big numbers to make splits with a more frugal family line.


----------



## bw200314 (Sep 3, 2015)

I started with Italians. Last year switched to the Russian Hybred Queens. Have alot better luck this and most of the made it thru winter. Was able to split most of them. The packages i bought intalled the end of March and the made honey the first yr. But everyone to the own choice. But like they said u will end up with mutt bees which i like also if u a strong queen


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I like the Italians here especially the Cordovan bees. Maybe it is our location in the valley. Many keep Italians for the quick Spring build up and
shorter flow season. This is good for the almond runs. Both the carnis and Italians we can keep them here without any issues. My suggestion is to start with the Italians if you like the yellow bees. If you like the gray/black bees then start with the carnis or Russians. How they can survive the local winter depends on how you prep them up before the cold snowy winter months set in. Because of the cold with a small brood nest and early Autumn shut down, the carnis do not do so well here. For the Italians with their later and earlier brooding up overwintering them here is just perfect. Usually 2-4 frame going into winter in a compact brood nest.


----------



## jhrusky (Jun 10, 2013)

I have one additional question pertaining to this: I was told by a Canadian beekeeper in Ontario that he does Carnis and he only needs 1 deep of honey to get them through the winter. In my experience we have always needed 2 here in Wisconsin for Italians. Do carnis eat that much less that would require only 1 deep to survive winter?


----------



## nediver (May 26, 2013)

Yes they are very frugal. I have seen baseball sized clusters make it through. They also regulate populations in dearth.


----------



## PeterP (Feb 5, 2014)

Hello Jhrusky.

I live in the magical, mystical, land of Ontario. While some overwinter in one box most use two. Single boxes are used mostly with shed wintering where the temps are maintained at a cosy, constant +5c.

You need to realize that Ontario while smaller then Alaska is bigger then Texas, by a third. It has plant hardiness zones from 1a to 7b. It has several thriving winery zones in the South West and lots and lots of Northern Ontario is above the tree line. Most residents live at a latitude south of M Palmer in northern Vermont.

I am in Eastern Ontario. Winter starts in November. Snow is on the ground continuously from Christmas to March. The forecast for tonight is 5cm of snow. We still have a snow pack. Nothing has bloomed yet. No snow drops, no crocus, no witch hazel, nothing. That's zone 5a.

I have Carniolan mixes. Originally Russian selected for varoa tolerance. I over winter in doubles. I treat with formic acid first week of september after pulling supers. I feed 8-10 liters of 2:1 syrup as soon as treatment done. I treat with oxalic dribble mid to late october when brooding has stopped. I monitor for mites by screened bottom board drop counts. I feed crystalized honey in March if stores are low or "spring" weather is not in long range forecast. I start with protein patties 6 weeks before dandelion bloom. (1st week of may). My hives need to be big for June raspberry pollination. 

I overwintered 8 doubles and 8 nucs (10-12 frames on 4x4x4 or 5x5) Lost a double and will likely lose a nuc.

Regards Peter


----------



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

jhrusky said:


> I have one additional question pertaining to this: I was told by a Canadian beekeeper in Ontario that he does Carnis and he only needs 1 deep of honey to get them through the winter. In my experience we have always needed 2 here in Wisconsin for Italians. Do carnis eat that much less that would require only 1 deep to survive winter?


My experience with Italians is yes, they do eat that much more. I generally overwinter my hives in single deeps or 1 deep and one medium. . Last year I decided to try another colony of Italians so I split one of the hives and put in an Italian queen I bought. Come November, the hive weight matched the Carni-mutt queened hives. By mid-January, the food in the Italian hive was gone and the hive was living on sugar blocks and pollen patties but still had a good colony size. By mid-March, the hive had dwindled to nothing and died. The lack of honey and pollen stores finally did them in. Pollen is available here every month of the year, if there is flying weather. It has been a bad year for flying. It has rained 50 of the last 57 days and been quite cold. It is my only Langstroth hive lost this year. The other hives still have plenty of stores and good colony sizes and are slowly increasing. Spring is finally starting in this area.


----------



## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

I started with Italians, Cordovans, Carniolans, and Caucasians. I would encourage you to experiment with each if you can and see what works for you. I have to admit I like all 4 for different reasons. I love my Italian because she always has brood when I need it. She lays as well as anyone and will crawl 3 boxes high if she can to lay an egg. I love my Caucasians and Carniolans for their brood break and because they were noticeably more frugal with feed, especially the Caucasians. Nice when you have a very many months of dearth. The Cordovans are just beautiful. Like a ray of sunshine when you open the hive. Unfortunately, I also notice the Cordovans trying to gain access to every other hive in the apiary all the time. Probably true of the Italians too, just not so noticeable. I'm not sure what I will end up with, but, I will always keep some Italians for their ready brood. I will never keep all Italians because I don't want to feed brood in every hive for the probably 8 months plus I don't need large amounts of brood. I think your choice will ultimately be based on your location, your preference, and the way you manage bees. It could even be different from what your neighbor would keep. Good luck!!!!


----------



## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

aunt betty said:


> Those Georgia bees didn't even make it to the first winter.


All the bees I bought came out of Georgia. I've never had any issues getting them to and through the Winter, except those things attributable to stupidity and bad beekeeping. It doesn't matter where they come from, they will make it if the beekeeper does the right things.

I get so tired hearing this crap about 'Georgia bees'. It's not the bees, it's the keeper.

If I have bees that die, I point the finger squarely at myself- What did I do wrong? People who want to blame the bees instead of the keeper are going to have more problems than the people who look at their failures and say "What could/should I have done differently that would have improved the outcome?"

As to the OP's question- I've had more success with the Carnis and Russians here in Cold Country. I had some Italians for a couple or three years, but management here may be a little different, and I haven't mastered it...but, I knew they would be a bit different right from the start, which is why I chose to start with the Carniolans. I still have hives of Carnis from the originals purchased, out of Georgia, in 2011. If you have cold and long Winters, I would recommend starting with the Carnis.

I'll be buying some Italian queens this year, though I have no intention of attempting to keep them pure Italian. The intention is merely to get a little more Italian blood in the mix with the Carni and Russian Hybrid blood. They will stay Italian for as long as the queens last, but eventually they are going to end up mixed, and they will be used for making queens to mate with what I already have going.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have little experience with Italians except what I encounter at my sons yards. My bees are supposedly a well selected blend of Carni Russian and Caucasion which is the bees from Tibor Szabo near Guelph ontario. There is no comparison in handling ease of these Szabo bees compared to general Italians. Robbing is non existent and they winter very well or else I am very lucky. I am isolated enough that they appear to be breeding fairly true as no other drones to dilute them. I have brought in a few queens also from Szabo just to be sure I am not inbreeding. Honey production has been right around 75lbs av. for double deep colonies over 4 summers. Considering I only have flow for June and July I think it is not bad but perhaps Italians might to a bit better.

Going into winter if the gross weight of the double deep colony is 125-130 lbs you dont have to worry about supplemental feed. I have quit bothering to put it on.


----------



## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

I have Italians, Carniolans, local mutts based on Russians, and some hybrids. They all do fine as long as they have food and the mites are kept in check. I probably lean more toward Carniolans and Italians but, honestly, I don't care as long as I can keep them healthy and I make sure they have adequate stores appropriate for the season. 

"I get so tired hearing this crap about 'Georgia bees'. It's not the bees, it's the keeper."

I second that.


----------



## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

jezz, my italians never shut down for the winter for the last 2 seasons, they just kept building up, even in the AZ mountains before I brought them here to Oregon, in the snow they were flying during the days, crazy hive, and this season I split them into 4 boxes 10days ago, they are booming in the mother hive so thick atm.
They have so much honey, filled a medium this past week, flow starts here on March 1st and really never stops till mid august, they are drawing wax hard now and the queen is laying in the incomplete cells.
They were almond bees in 2015 and have always been super honey producers, and the Queen keeps on pumping eggs, it's the same girl, with her painted mark, no way am I pinching her as long as she pumps out full frames of brood. crazy queen

They are a little testy, but who cares...seriously




beepro said:


> I like the Italians here especially the Cordovan bees. Maybe it is our location in the valley. Many keep Italians for the quick Spring build up and
> shorter flow season. This is good for the almond runs. Both the carnis and Italians we can keep them here without any issues. My suggestion is to start with the Italians if you like the yellow bees. If you like the gray/black bees then start with the carnis or Russians. How they can survive the local winter depends on how you prep them up before the cold snowy winter months set in. Because of the cold with a small brood nest and early Autumn shut down, the carnis do not do so well here. For the Italians with their later and earlier brooding up overwintering them here is just perfect. Usually 2-4 frame going into winter in a compact brood nest.


----------

