# Ceder hives : worth it?



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

No. It is worth the work if you enjoy bees. We all have our set-backs. We learn from them and from others....and try to minimize our set-backs. Join a club if you can and "hang-out" here!


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

What snl said! The wisdom you acquire from experienced beekeepers is a powerful tool in keeping your bees healthy. You can't do it alone.


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

Use beetle jails.


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## The Evil Chip (May 19, 2012)

TheBuzz said:


> Use beetle jails.


I respectfully disagree. I've used them in the past and hate them. You spill oil in the hive in using them and they don't kill that many of the little vermin. What I use are the IPK small beetle traps from Green Beehives. 

http://www.greenbeehives.com/ipk-small-hive-beetle-trap-assembled-and-painted.html


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

keeping colonies strong is the best way and never giving to much space to quickly.

Cedar is nice to have but it will not stop the beetles from coming in.


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

> I've used them in the past and hate them. You spill oil in the hive in using them and they don't kill that many of the little vermin.


I've used them too. They worked great for me. They would accumulate a heck of a lot of beetle bodies. 

Do cedar hives irritate the bees too? It seems to me that if cedar is used to keep moths out of clothes and beetles out of hives, it would irritate the bees too.

A lot of people use them, though. So I guess not...I really don't understand that.


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

Cedar does not do much to repel the beetle or the wax worms. But it is fun to work with and makes a nice hive. I use local red cedar and have less problems with it over store bought white board when I have to work with it. And I can buy cedar from a sawmill cheaper than I can go to a lumber yard and pick up a pine board. I still use yellow pine for frames and supers.


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

I seldom see a beetle in my hives since I have been sprinkling coarse salt around them. I generously sprinkle salt under and all around my hives and it really has cut down the number of beetles I see. It also stops weeds from growing around the hives.


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## zorares (May 8, 2013)

Very Interesting. Salt. Gotta try that. I've been sprinkling cinnamon to help control ants. I'll have to make a mix of salt and cinnamon.


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

Hives out in the sunlight and strong hives are the best defense for SHB. Of course, the traps and trays and stuff help, too.


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## beesimex (May 7, 2007)

can you please share what type of salt you use?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Then I saw these cedar hives. Do they help keep out the nasty bugs and pests that plague hives? 

No, it does nothing to keep out wax moths, Varroa or small hive beetles. Cedar boxes age well, but the wood is expensive and brittle. It splits easily when assembling it. If it's free, I love cedar (scrap wood)... if I have to buy it, it's too expensive.


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## Dash (May 25, 2013)

I have two hives out of cedar. I agree with MBush on the cost and workability. I use it when I can get it cheap. Currently worked 500 bf of Ponderosa Pine and came out with about 95 boxes worth. Good stuff as it has a good density for a pine wood.

Dash


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## modonnell (Jun 16, 2013)

I don't want to hijack this thread and will be happy to start a new one.
I just got some Eastern Red Cedar from a man locally, he was selling it as scrap saying it is not a whole good board, but i can cut out the bad bits and make medium supers, anyway, can i use Eastern Red Cedar ( with a slight cedar aroma ) for hive body's, or honey supers, i have read quite a bit about it, some say "NO", some say "Yes i use it all the time", some say "NO, the cedar odor will taint the honey", does anybody use Eastern Red Cedar in their hives?







Thank you
Regards
Martin


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have built boxes out of whatever scraps I got, which have included Western, Eastern and Aromatic red cedar. I never noticed any taste, but then not all my boxes were cedar and all the honey was mixed together.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> ...No, it does nothing to keep out wax moths...


Since 2009 I never saw any mold and wax moths inside of my cedar hive bodies. And below you can see the superb condition of my cedar hive body after cold winter:
http://www.beebehavior.com/beeimages/hives/cedar_hive.jpg
More pictures are posted here:
http://www.beebehavior.com/cedar_hives.php

But it will not help if your colonies are weak!

"Cedar contains natural oils (phenols) which help prevent decay and insect attack. Cedar has a dense cell structure, approximately 10 ten million cells per cubic inch. Cedar shrinks and swells at minimal rate, remains flat and is resistant to checking. "
From: http://www.chapmanlumberinc.com/Cedar-Decking---Railing.html

Boris Romanov


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Since 2009 I never saw any mold and wax moths inside of my cedar hive bodies.

I'm sure I can find some cedar boxes around here with wax moth cocoons in them...


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## modonnell (Jun 16, 2013)

Hey Michael, thank you for the information.
It looks like i will build a hive (mediums) and see what happens .


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> ..I'm sure I can find some cedar boxes around here with wax moth cocoons in them...


Hard to believe. Could you show us some pictures please.

In addition, cedar wood is naturally water-resistant, it doesn't require any treatment before being used outside
This is the second reason why I prefer to use cedar hive bodies as the first (bottom) hive bodies. Here you can see the current condition (July 12,2013) of the cedar hive bodies:
http://www.beebehavior.com/beeimages/hives/Cedar_hive_July12,2013.jpg
http://www.beebehavior.com/beeimages/hives/Cedar_hive_2_July12,2013.jpg
http://www.beebehavior.com/beeimages/hives/Cedar_hive_4_July12,2013.jpg

"...Red Cedar is usually the first choice for beehives as, although it is a softwood, it has good preservative qualities and therefore lasts longer. It doesn’t need to be painted...
This is the wood that National hives, the most common hive in the UK, are made of."
http://www.beeginnerbeekeeper.com/bee-hive-plans/


"Cedar is the traditional timber which UK beehives are made from, specifically Western Red Cedar. Whilst Cedar hives are the most popular, they can be made from pretty much any wood, although Cedar is the preferred timber if the hives are to last long in the British weather...

The reasons that Western Red Cedar is so widely used for beehives is because it contains natural oils which preserve the wood and therefore does not need treating with chemicals to help preserve it...
There are a huge number of companies and individuals who manufacture Cedar hives..."
http://www.honeybeehive.co.uk/beekeeping/equipment/cedar-hives/


Boris Romanov


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Yes, cedar does "help" prevent decay and insect attack. But NO it most definitely will not prevent wax moth, shb, or varroa damage. None of these are pests of wood but instead they are pests of what lives within these wooden hives. It's important to note that wax moth and shb are much worse in some climates than others. Leave dark, pollen filled comb unattended in the heat of a Midwestern, southern or western US summer and I guarantee you that you will have wax moth pretty much everywhere regardless of the type of wood and you will find shb in most southeastern coastal climates. MB is quite correct, I am sure I wouldn't have much trouble finding some old cedar boxes rife with wax moth cocooning scars.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> Yes, cedar does "help" prevent decay and insect attack. But NO it most definitely will not prevent wax moth...


Show me the REAL proof of your statement please. 
Do you have some cedar hives?

Boris Romanov


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Show me the REAL proof of your statement please. Do you have some cedar hives?



jim lyon said:


> MB is quite correct, I am sure I wouldn't have much trouble finding some old cedar boxes rife with wax moth cocooning scars.


:lpf::scratch: :lpf:

Jim Lyon maintains thousands of hives, and has been in the business for many years. I have no doubt that the wood in his hives over the years has come from many types of trees, including some from _cedar_.

Also note that there are multiple varieties of cedar trees and not all cedar trees/lumber have the same moth/insect characteristics. Eastern red cedar is known as aromatic cedar for its reputed moth repellent properties. But there are other commercially available cedar lumber varieties that are not the same, for instance, western cedar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuja_plicata


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>will not prevent wax moth...
Show me the REAL proof of your statement please. 

I have nothing to prove. If you wish to believe your lack of wax moths is due to cedar, you are welcome to that opinion. I simply don't have time to sort through hundreds of boxes to find the cedar ones and then through the cedar ones for the wax moth scarred ones and then take pictures and then post them. I had hoped the same as many have hoped, that cedar would help with wax moths and varroa etc. and I looked for evidence to that effect. Cedar did not help. There is certainly nothing wrong with cedar boxes and they will resist rot, but I wouldn't pay the difference in price to buy the cedar. 

I am simply sharing my experience. You are welcome to ignore it.


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## Boris (Jul 12, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> ...I have nothing to prove...


I expected to get a such type of your answer...
In my opinion statements without real proofs are useless.

Boris Romanov


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## dandeman (Jun 24, 2013)

zorares said:


> Very Interesting. Salt. Gotta try that. I've been sprinkling cinnamon to help control ants. I'll have to make a mix of salt and cinnamon.


I'm a newbee and I'm curious about the cinnamon controlling fire ants. Since you live in Texas, zozares, I assume it will. Is cinnamon effective with fire ants? Also have you tried that salt and cinnamon mixture? If so, what do you think of that?


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## SueMegg (Feb 10, 2016)

Michael Bush said:


> > Then I saw these cedar hives. Do they help keep out the nasty bugs and pests that plague hives?
> 
> No, it does nothing to keep out wax moths, Varroa or small hive beetles. Cedar boxes age well, but the wood is expensive and brittle. It splits easily when assembling it. If it's free, I love cedar (scrap wood)... if I have to buy it, it's too expensive.


You speak of the vast number of micro-organisms as part of a healthy hive, do you believe that cedar would in any way inhibit them?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>You speak of the vast number of micro-organisms as part of a healthy hive, do you believe that cedar would in any way inhibit them?

I don't know. I've never thought about it. I only have a few cedar hives and never noticed any difference in the health of the bees. I was not monitoring (nor am I now monitoring) levels or distribution of microbes in the colonies. If you're asking my gut feeling, I doubt it makes any difference. Black walnut would be more likely to make a difference than cedar from my experience...


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## Orion7 (Jun 3, 2015)

I have 2 eastern red cedar hives. I like them very much. I've only used them for about a year now, so it may be to early to really tell how much they repel pest. I did not taste cedar in the honey. I had a swarm trap made out of eastern red cedar, and a swarm moved in, so they must like it ok. Of course there was some other good stuff in there too, like lemongrass oil and swarm lure. So far no ants, moths, or beetles. We will see how it goes over the next few years.


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

Unscented Swiffer pads work well for me. Like them better than the oil traps.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

We run about half cedar and half pine on our langs. I don't see any difference in the health related to the material. With my bees, the inside is coated with propolis in about a season so I don't think that anything comes into direct contact with the material after that.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >will not prevent wax moth...
> Show me the REAL proof of your statement please.
> 
> I have nothing to prove. If you wish to believe your lack of wax moths is due to cedar, you are welcome to that opinion. I simply don't have time to sort through hundreds of boxes to find the cedar ones and then through the cedar ones for the wax moth scarred ones and then take pictures and then post them. I had hoped the same as many have hoped, that cedar would help with wax moths and varroa etc. and I looked for evidence to that effect. Cedar did not help. There is certainly nothing wrong with cedar boxes and they will resist rot, but I wouldn't pay the difference in price to buy the cedar.
> ...


Interesting. I'm fighting a war with walnut trees my father convinced us to let grow. They're making baby trees everywhere and the only thing that grows under a walnut tree here is poison ivy. What was he thinkin? (thought he was going to sell timber or something I guess).


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## SueMegg (Feb 10, 2016)

Michael Bush said:


> >You speak of the vast number of micro-organisms as part of a healthy hive, do you believe that cedar would in any way inhibit them?
> 
> I don't know. I've never thought about it. I only have a few cedar hives and never noticed any difference in the health of the bees. I was not monitoring (nor am I now monitoring) levels or distribution of microbes in the colonies. If you're asking my gut feeling, I doubt it makes any difference. Black walnut would be more likely to make a difference than cedar from my experience...


Thank you, yes, gut feeling was what I was asking, not a scientific study. I plan on making a couple of cedar hives to see if the longevity is much better than pine, but got to thinking about all those microbes that I want to welcome into our hives.


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

aunt betty said:


> Interesting. I'm fighting a war with walnut trees my father convinced us to let grow. They're making baby trees everywhere and the only thing that grows under a walnut tree here is poison ivy. What was he thinkin? (thought he was going to sell timber or something I guess).


Probably. Or the walnuts that fall to the ground each year. 2-4-D works wonders on the poison ivy, roundup does ok. Walnuts are a money maker with the nuts and the lumber when they mature. But they are one of the worst trees, they loose leaves first in the fall and put them on the latest in the spring. They are messy and they kill out the competition around them.

Making a hive out of them is expensive. Red cedar is more efficient.


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