# hobbyist to commercial



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

My definition of a commercial beekeeper is someone who makes his living by keeping bees.

There are many ways to get enough hives to be able to do that but if a person has to buy them all rather than build up numbers himself it is also likely he won't have the needed skills to make a living from the bees he buys.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



Oldtimer said:


> My definition of a commercial beekeeper is someone who makes his living by keeping bees.
> 
> There are many ways to get enough hives to be able to do that but if a person has to buy them all rather than build up numbers himself it is also likely he won't have the needed skills to make a living from the bees he buys.


Haha, wow very well said!


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

I am a serious sideliner I bought out our local bee Inspetor. He had about 20 hives at that time in some ways it was a bad buy and other way it was good. The bad was just as much my fault. Didn't inspect before before the deal was finalized. Lot of junk Equipment. The good accounts for honey sales. Yard all ready set up to a point. Payment was some cash and painting his home. The main way that I have built up to about 100 hives are queen bought and swarm cell. Have burnt a bunch of junk equiment. But I feel that the real value use the honey sells accounts that I moved right into. Do I make a living no. But I hope to have it help my retirement fund. If I ever stop spending $$


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

"hobiest to commercial", a leap too far.

The question you should ask is, "How do I grow from a few hives in my back yard to a sideline business, with multiple yards?" One step at a time.
First get some bees. Learn to keep them alive. Grow your apiary by adding more hives each year and you will either learn to keep your hives alive and expand or learn that you can't and then decide you don't really want to deal with anymore than what fits in your back yard.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

Once you feel like you can handle a commercial operation then
go buy out a few bee yards. Then continue to grow your operation
until you can rely on the bees to make a living. For some it is a long process, for
others it is only a dream, someday!


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

Put some numbers around it and figure out if you are cut out for this.

One man working long hard days and with a highly mechanized setup can manage about 2000 colonies for honey production.

There is a point roughly at 100 colonies where the equipment required to manage the colonies exceeds the capacity of most hobby/sideliner equipment. Said another way, you have to get serious honey handling and bee managing equipment to run more than 100 colonies. This is kind of an arbitrary limit and not really set in stone. In other words, many on here will argue about it.

Decide where you want to make your money. Pollination requires one set of skills. Honey production requires slightly different skills. A full time pollination business will run one man to death with about 800 colonies. Just ask SqkCrk.

The investment in hives and foundation represents about $150 per colony counting woodenware and foundation and allowing for a lot of sweat equity. Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 100 double deep hives plus honey supers? I spent 8 hours painting 10 hives including top, bottom, and brood boxes. If I were doing this on a commercial scale, I would need a paint sprayer and would have to do the same job in an hour or less.

Now think about investing $600,000 or more in a 2000 colony operation including truck to haul hives, honey house with extracting equipment to manage the crop, setting up locations with bee stands, etc.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

2000 hives per man?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

I wonder how many one person operation do we have that can handle
2000 hives on his own, either in the states here or around the world?


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## SouthTexasJohn (Mar 16, 2015)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



sqkcrk said:


> First get some bees. Learn to keep them alive.


BAM! Well put sir.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



beepro said:


> I wonder how many one person operation do we have that can handle
> 2000 hives on his own, either in the states here or around the world?


None.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



Fusion_power said:


> One man working long hard days and with a highly mechanized setup can manage about 2000 colonies for honey production.


Where did you get that number from? The most I ever had was 800. I'm not the best example of what someone can do, but I run about 500 to 600 hives and that's all I want to do. And I have help some times.

Someone more dedicated than I could, maybe, keep 1,000 colonies mostly all by themselves. But they would have to be good at juggling work and family and have a spouse who does everything other than the bees. Being a workaholic Type A sort of person would be required, I would think.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



beepro said:


> Once you feel like you can handle a commercial operation then
> go buy out a few bee yards. Then continue to grow your operation
> until you can rely on the bees to make a living. For some it is a long process, for
> others it is only a dream, someday!


I took out a loan from the USDA FSA and bought a 200 hive outfit. And then I did it again with a similar sized outfit, which turned out to have quite a bit of AFB. It took a long time to clean that problem up. Then I got a trailer to set up my extracting equipment and after two years use the trailer caught fire and destroyed all of my extracting equipment. For the last 20 years I have been paying someone else to extract for me.

You have to be able to take a hit and keep going. Or you have to do something else. Many are able, fewer are willing.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

Back when I started there was no varroa and not all but a reasonable number of outfits here worked at 1000 hives per man, and I worked for one outfit with 2,500 hives run by 2 men. But no varroa and little hive migration made things a little easier but all the same it was very physical, plus the beekeeping was rough there just wasn't the time. 

When varroa got here most of these type outfits dropped to around 700 per man, just more complex with varroa. But now 300 to 500 a man is common here with the high price we now get for NZ honeys bees are worked pretty intensely, although there are still traditional type operations with guys running a lot of hives. Believe it or not there are some mom and pop operations here with less than 300 hives supporting the entire family.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

1,000 is pretty doable if you are well equipped and have additional seasonal harvest help. We are closer to 1500 and wouldn't want to try to run many more. 2,000 is a pretty high number while still getting necessary things done in a timely manner.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



Fusion_power said:


> ...................


Are you speaking from experience? or conjecture?
If the former, great. Please tell more. If the latter, say so.


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

Dang. I'd be embarrassed to say how many I could handle by myself. 

I'm wondering though, how often are you guys that manage 500+ hives per man actually going into each of those hives? and how many on average would you keep in a yard?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



RichardsonTX said:


> Dang. I'd be embarrassed to say how many I could handle by myself.
> 
> I'm wondering though, how often are you guys that manage 500+ hives per man actually going into each of those hives? and how many on average would you keep in a yard?


Ahhhh, you must be talking about those regular "full inspections" I often hear discussed here on Beesource? . We check an individual hive if we feel there is a problem not much time for anything else.


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



jim lyon said:


> Ahhhh, you must be talking about those regular "full inspections" I often hear discussed here on Beesource? . We check an individual hive if we feel there is a problem not much time for anything else.


Not really, since an "inspection", if it should be called that, for me, is usually different at different times of the year. I don't even really know how I'd define a "full inspection". There's some things I am always looking for but usually the primary reason for opening the hive is different most times. 

I've never been anything close to what would be called a commercial or even sideliner beekeeper. But, I've wondered about how a commercial pollinator and/or honey producer beekeeper manages their labor force and seeing the comments on this thread about how many hives per man prompted the question. Having managed a manufacturing facility in a cyclical industry kind of causes a person to wonder how it's done in another commercial industry. And also, because I am reasoning that if a commerical honey producer beekeeper has a system worked out that is efficient for them, it might be a good idea for me to learn from that and try to duplicate it (or parts of it) even though I only have a few hives to contend with. I like efficiency. 

One thing I've wondered about lately is how much return is a beekeeper really getting from doing inspections for queen cells on every hive, every 10 days or less. Is it better to just make early spring splits, replacing all but your breeder queens, making quick inspections for food stores/laying queen/health/bee volume, and relying on that for swarm prevention management?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

In the world of efficient beekeeping...I am the poster child for what not to do.
If I were a young man with a family, mortgage and such...I'd approach it all differently. In fact, I wouldn't even consider beekeeping. And when I was in that situation I had an entirely different working career that would support those needs.
Today, my children are grown, educated and independent. The mortgage long since settled. And I don't really 'want' anything...so beekeeping is doable. And that's what I do.
Keep in mind, I live alone so...I just finished this week's laundry. I'll do my own grocery shopping, cook for myself and everything else necessary for living....and then I keep bees.
No bobcats for loading supers and hives. No automatic uncappers. Full inspections a couple of times a year. Partial inspections....make sure there's healthy brood several more times. I retail 70% of my product. I bottle label and sell it.
Having said all of that...in my situation, I am pressed to manage 200 hives.
Time to get to the beeyards. I've got to get a space ready to move a dozen hives. Once I get them moved...the old fashioned way....I've got to get honey bottled and labeled for the market....and then with every spare minute, for the next six weeks, I'll be pulling supers and extracting honey...again...the old fashioned way.
I am a ****ed fool...by choice.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

Re swarm control for a commercial beekeeper there is no one answer, what a commercial beekeeper does for that depends on a bunch of other things and what he is wanting to achieve. But for me, that spring swarming season is when I'm real busy, what happens over that couple of months and how successful I am at it determines my income for the year. The rest of the year is just supering, wintering, harvesting or whatever.

But as for time per hive, it's the same as any job, do it all day you get faster at it. Me, I enjoy tinkering with mechanical things but if I do something like, say, putting new brake pads in the truck, it might take quite a while, where a professional mechanic would knock it off in minutes. For hive inspections a hobbyist enjoys messing with the bees so may pull just about every frame in the hive and closely examine it. A commercial beekeeper will open the hive and due to years of experience will instantly get a good idea where the hive is at before even pulling a frame. Then, pulling one frame from central brood nest will tell him pretty much everything else he needs to know about the hive, then he will do whatever is necessary from there.

I've linked this video before so apologies to those who have seen it, but here are commercial beekeepers doing some post almond work. Imagine someone who has a couple hobby hive doing this. The hives are opened and an opinion formed re condition of the hive. Entrance size is adjusted, bottom board scraped. Hives given an oxalic dribble, brood boxes reversed if needed, hives fed. A hobbyist doing this on their one hive could probably spend a 1/2 hour checking every frame, trying to see the queen, etc, then they don't know how a commercial beekeeper can get so many hives done. A hobbyist looking at this video will also think those beekeepers are not doing a very thorough job. But, those guys have a depth of experience helping evaluate the hives. See any hives weak or dead? If they were as rough as some people would think then surely they would be losing hives, they must be doing something right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxcpGJ_2Df8


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

Oldtimer, thanks for the video link. That was pretty cool seeing how they keep their entrance reducer stored right there in the bottom board. Now why didn't I think of that? And, I couldn't tell but is the feeder already in the bottom hive body being moved up to the top? If not, where was that in the reverse process? And then it looks like the oxalic dribble happens, a patty goes on, the feeder filled, and the lid put back on. Am I seeing that right? Also, I can say, that wood insert in the division board feeder makes a world of difference. I started using those in my hives this year and it really helps reduce the amount of dead bees. But why not put the syrup on until after the hives get set out in the orchard? 

Something else I'm curious about is how much space they have above the bottom board. I made my bottom boards with a 3/4" spacer and I get burr comb on the bottom that I sometimes have to scrape off if I move those frames to the top. Was theirs 3/4" or 3/8"? What are folks recommending? Also, why is there space between the sides of boxes? I know the ends are spaced so you can grab the hand hold but why the side spacing? Is it necessary? 

I'm guessing a frame inspection is taking place randomly to grade for strength and health. Those were probably all equalized at the start of build up 4-6 weeks before when a "full inspection" was made, the hives equalized/combined, patty put on, and fed syrup. 

The other thing I'm wondering is when and where are the bees placed to be fed and built up to that strength prior to almond pollination for those beekeepers coming out of the northern US. Those are built up to the point that I'd bet there isn't much in the way of food stores on those frames based on the volume of bees and way the double deeps are being handled. They remind me of someone around here leaving their double deeps alone until the first part of April and they are about to swarm or die because there isn't enough nectar available yet. What's the probability of those hives swarming before they get them out of the almonds and split? It just goes to show you how different things can be when management for pollination is taking place versus just honey production. I wonder what Mike Palmer thinks about all this?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



beemandan said:


> No bobcats for loading supers and hives. No automatic uncappers. Full inspections a couple of times a year. Partial inspections....make sure there's healthy brood several more times. I retail 70% of my product. I bottle label and sell it.
> Having said all of that...in my situation, I am pressed to manage 200 hives.
> Time to get to the beeyards. I've got to get a space ready to move a dozen hives. Once I get them moved...the old fashioned way....I've got to get honey bottled and labeled for the market....and then with every spare minute, for the next six weeks, I'll be pulling supers and extracting honey...again...the old fashioned way.
> I am a ****ed fool...by choice.


Ditto for me.
And I would make the second happy ****ed fool in the fools club.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



RichardsonTX said:


> Dang. I'd be embarrassed to say how many I could handle by myself.
> 
> I'm wondering though, how often are you guys that manage 500+ hives per man actually going into each of those hives? and how many on average would you keep in a yard?


Hard to say, exactly. Because I don't go deep into a hive unless I see need to. So, maybe 6 times a year? If that.

I like 40 per yard, during the Summer. One third of a semi load during the Winter.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



RichardsonTX said:


> One thing I've wondered about lately is how much return is a beekeeper really getting from doing inspections for queen cells on every hive, every 10 days or less. Is it better to just make early spring splits, replacing all but your breeder queens, making quick inspections for food stores/laying queen/health/bee volume, and relying on that for swarm prevention management?


Breeder queens? My breeder queens belong to the folks I buy cells and queens from.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



Oldtimer said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxcpGJ_2Df8


This should not be shown to some people. 

Notice how he stays bent over while moving and reversing? Might as well stay down there, is how I see it.

I would like to see how that entrance reducers is placed. Seemed hinged in some way.


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

Sqkcrk, I think it just has a nail through it. 

How much space is above your bottom board to the first hive body? I'm trying to learn something since I'm thinking about changing mine from 3/4 to 3/8. The reason I made it 3/4 at first is because I always seem to have 3/4" scrap material laying around and it is easy to get and when I have a divider in my deep (using it for a small nuc to grow into more frames later), I just use a piece of 3/4 whatever laying around for the divider to slide down against. The divider is the same depth as the deep. But, I don't like the burr comb they put on the bottom bars even though it isn't really much of a hassle.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

Makes sense.

I have a variety of pallets which I did not build. So some are probably 3/4". I don't think the others are 3/8" though.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



RichardsonTX said:


> I'm thinking about changing mine from 3/4 to 3/8.


3/4 in my opinion works well and is what I use. 2 years ago a guy ordered 100 singles from me and specified he wanted 3/8 rise on the bottom boards. So I ran him 100 special, then the deal fell over so I'm stuck using them myself. End of day the honey crop isn't noticeably much different but I do see more cramming of bees in the entrance on a hot busy day, and these hives have more fanner bees on duty than the other hives.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

There is less burr comb on the bottom of the frames with 3/8, but it is also harder to see queen cells


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

Cool. I'm glad for the info. Now I'm going to keep my bottom boards like they are. 3/4"


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

I watched one guy working one of his beeyards down the road from me. (he's a pollinator, and I think he gets some honey too) There were probably 40 hives in the yard. This is how he did it:
He opened one hive, quickly found the queen, and looked around. For the rest of the hives, he went around, popping about every other lid and looking down inside for literally 1 seconds and then moving on.
I was amazed at how fast he worked his hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

Quickly found the queen and then looked around? Like he was looking to see if anyone saw him? Once he found her, is that all he did? Looked around? Looked around for what?

I can't imagine what he was doing, other than deciding whether it was time to super up yet or not.


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

He may have just been showing me the queen though, now that I think of it.


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

Oh, and it might be helpful if I told you it was a split. 
I think he was checking if it was queenright too.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

Re the question whether a beekeeper can run 2000 colonies, I know it can be done because I know someone who does it. He is a honey producer, not a pollinator and all of his bees are on fixed locations. He is getting older and slowing down a bit so the last couple of years he has hired help to pull supers and get them to the honey house for extraction. He is a dawn to dark go getter. No, I won't give out names, I like my privacy and he likes his. But he is in the southeast U.S.

My max was 40 colonies back around 1991. I realized very fast that my fun hobby was turning into hard work so I cut back drastically. I have not been above 20 colonies since. In the winter of 2003/2004 I was wiped out by varroa leaving only one colony that I split into 3 the next spring. I built up to 24 colonies as of today and will make enough splits to go into fall with at least 28. None of my bees have been treated for varroa in 11 years. They survive and thrive just fine on their own. I am on a quest to improve them so I will be making some crosses this fall to combine better production genetics with very good varroa tolerance.


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

lots of good info thanks.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*



Fusion_power said:


> Re the question whether a beekeeper can run 2000 colonies, I know it can be done because I know someone who does it. He is a honey producer, not a pollinator and all of his bees are on fixed locations. He is getting older and slowing down a bit so the last couple of years he has hired help to pull supers and get them to the honey house for extraction. He is a dawn to dark go getter. No, I won't give out names, I like my privacy and he likes his. But he is in the southeast U.S.


2000, older guy, stationary for honey, just recently hired help. If you say so Fusion Power.


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## Pinchecharlie (May 14, 2014)

beepro said:


> Once you feel like you can handle a commercial operation then
> go buy out a few bee yards. Then continue to grow your operation
> until you can rely on the bees to make a living. For some it is a long process, for
> others it is only a dream, someday!


Where does one buy bee yards? Do larger apiaries sell commercially permitted sites? Reason I ask is it is impossible where I live to find a site that can have a commercial permit due to laws that won't allow a site within a three mile radius. Thanks


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I often find the bee operation for sale on the CL site. One offer at $60K with 
almond pollination contact too among other bee equipment. Not sure if they are
still available though. It is there also that I found the new beekeepers hive equipment for sale
after they have abandoned the beekeeping hobby for mismanagement. Equipment are still brand new for
a season use. Over here lands are abundant so no competing laws to hinder
your bee operation's progress. Lots of room still for the bee expansion. Just talk to a 
coworker today that she live in a 10 acres farm with an orchard and 8 acres of natural
spring soaked land that is green all year long. No snow there so beekeeping can be all
year long too. The land is good for cow grazing but also good for
the bee keeping once planted with the wildflowers, clovers and such.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

*Re: hobiest to comercial*

20 in Oregon


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