# Peculiar SHB smell



## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

I know they say that hives that are infested with SHB smell fermented/sour. Well my hive with SHB definitely has a distinct smell, but I suppose it's not overrun with SHB yet so it doesn't smell sour. The smell is a kind of sickly sweet smell. Hard to describe but WAY stronger than a regular hive(I can smell if from a fair distance). Any of you have similar experiences? I just want to make sure what I'm experiencing is "normal"


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm no expert on SHB, having never actually seen one, but if I could smell them I'd worry about them.


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

Is that the only hive. I know when the bees are working the nector and trying to thicken it into honey the entire apiary smells. Golden rod is the bigest smell and it is not a bad smell at all.
I do not hav SHB problems up here in NY and hope I never do so I can not tell you if they produce a smell. Sory








Dan


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

I think the sour smell attributed to SHB is from fermenting honey caused by all the SHB larva defecating in the cells -- not from the SHB directly. If that were the case, it would probably be painfully obvious when you open the hive. But to make it worse, from what I've read, bees do not like to clean up after such a large infestation but would rather abscond.

A few weeks after I installed my packages this year, my IPM bottom board insert was piled high with SHB larva. I disposed of them and once the hive populations started to increase there were no more SHB to be found. I still occasionally find an adult scampering around in the hive, but no apparent damage.

I think the bottom line is keep the hives strong and healthy and SHB is no problem.


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## Will (Aug 3, 2002)

I've lost a couple of hives to SHB. One had gone queenless and the other was a cutout that I had placed some honey combs in a hive top feeder. Bubbly honey or nectar is a sure sign you've got problems. Once the infestation becomes great enough there is a smell of rotting oranges coming from the hive and the affected area has an orangish slime. SHB lay multiple eggs in the cells. There will be 5-6 maggot type larvae in the cells. The bees move away from these affected combs and the shb begin to take their hold. Pull out the affected combs and replace w/ new. Give a frame or two of capped/emerging brood and feed them well. SHB is an opportunist and have an uncanny ability to seek out the weak. When managed properly they are no greater threat than wax moth.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Will, I hope you're right. We don't hav them here, but they're just over the river--my friend just discovered them in her hives--she lives about 60 miles away. Four of my hives (one of which is a two-queener) are very strong, but I have two--a new one and one which was given to me by an oldtimer--that are pretty weak and are cause for concern. I'm thinking of splitting the two queener and combining one of the weak hives with each split. Do you think that's a good idea or will combining them just weaken my strong two queener?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

A weak hive is just a smaller amount of bees compared to a strong hive with many bees. Assuming no deseases or other contributing factor exists.

With this in mind, its important just as with wax moths, do not over extend the ability of the bees to defend itself. All non-essential supers and extra comb should be taken from the hive. Entrances reduced. The beetle as already mentioned is an opportunist, but can be controlled and dealt with. They will start on the outside frame and move from frame to frame when theses frames are not being populated by bees. 

And do not scrap burr comb, especially with brood(drone) that you see between boxes, and discard it by dropping it on the ground. I see way to much of this and also extra equipment with frames and comb just being "cleaned" by the bees and ending up laying about for who knows how long. You will be asking for wax moths and beetkes in no time.


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## Will (Aug 3, 2002)

Hi Tia,
You still have some time to combine w/ a stronger hive. How weak is weak? Right now it's important for the bees to be set up to be able to make the change over from summer bees to winter bees this fall. If they can't make the changeover they will most surely fail and will need to be combined w/ a stronger hive. An option would be to piggy back them in the fall during the flow to see if they can make it on their own. If they can't, just remove double screen board after a couple of weeks. No worries.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Will, 
<How weak is weak?> I'm not sure. The last time I looked into either of them was the end of June. The hive that was given to me had a spotty brood pattern, but there were eggs; I couldn't find the queen on my last visit but the time prior a more experienced friend of mine was able to find her--she was very small, hence my problem locating her (He suggested I "wait and see" rather than replace her). Lately, there hasn't been much "come & go" activity--a forager leaves or arrives about once every three seconds. The other hive is a new hive that I set up because I had an extra queen. It's in one Illinois Super. I gave the hive a frame of brood/larva/eggs with bees and two frames of honey. That hive, albeit small, is pretty active. 
<Right now it's important for the bees to be set up to be able to make the change over from summer bees to winter bees this fall. If they can't make the changeover they will most surely fail and will need to be combined w/ a stronger hive.> What is the difference between a "summer bee" and a "winter bee"?
<An option would be to piggy back them in the fall during the flow to see if they can make it on their own. If they can't, just remove double screen board after a couple of weeks.> I don't have a double screen board, so I'd have to get one (I just got a sale flyer from Mann Lake; they've got them for $12.77). If I did piggyback them and they didn't build up, wouldn't I have to destroy one of the queens to combine them? I suspect that the paper method wouldn't have to be used since with the screen they'd be used to each others' scent by then, no? Is the double screen board a better way to combine hives than the paper method?


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## Will (Aug 3, 2002)

Tia,
It's time for an inspection making a note of how each hive is progressing or not. SHB in a weak hive can wreak havoc in 4 weeks. I'm not trying to scare you, just trying to emphasize the importance of being vigilant in cutting off problems before they develop in cases of weak hives and shb. How many frames of bees are there in the split you made w/ extra queen now and the other spotty brood hive? In the fall, there is what some refer to as broodnest changeover time. That means the queen starts laying again and the old bees make new winter bees that will live through the winter and part of the spring, insuring the colonies chance of survival. Summer bees live for a shorter amount of time say 6-10 weeks, working themselves to death. Winter bees live all the way through the winter and into the spring of the following year, hopefully, that is, or that's our goal as beekeepers to aid them w/ this task. Double screen boards are easy to make. You could also just use an inner cover w/ the hole screened off on both sides. You wouldn't have to destroy the queen w/ the double screen board unless one was obviously failing. The bees would sort it out and you might even end up w/ a two queen hive which would be of great benefit over winter and into spring. As long as the bees have been piggy backed for 3-4 weeks, they should be scented the same and there should be no problems w/ uniting them. A double screen is a versative tool not just used for uniting bees. Newspaper method is fine for uniting bees as long as the bees are strong enough to remove the paper. Otherwise, you'll have wax moth, shb, and a bigger mess than you started with.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Will, thanks for all the help. I think these two hives are stronger than you're imagining. They put up a pretty good hum when I fog them! I plan to go into all my hives within the next week to evaluate the goings on and to take off surplus honey. Do you think I should just join the two weak hives, or put each weak hive with one-half of my very strong two-queen colony? Whatever your answer, I think I'm going to go ahead and order a couple of those double screen boards--I think they might come in handy for a lot of things. Now, because of the very thorough explanation in your last post, I have another question: I read somewhere that a two-queen colony should be split into two separate hives for the winter. Are you saying I do not have to split my two-queen colony this fall? Sure would make thinks a lot easier! Assembly of my two-queen colony from bottom up is: Bottom board, deep hive body, queen excluder, Imirie shim, 2 shallow supers, queen excluder, Imirie shim, the second brood box, another Imirie shim and three honey supers. Are you saying I can just remove the three top honey supers for extraction and leave the 2 in the center for the bees to overwinter, or do I have to dissassemble and remove the Imirie shims?


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

Well after mechanically going after and smooshing the SHBs on a few occasions, the hive seems to have rebounded nicely. There are still SHB, but the tide seems to favor the bees now. The peculiar smell is gone from the backyard, only when I open the hive do I smell it now. I'm not sure if it was the "SHB smell" or not...it never smelled fermented or sour...just sickly sweet. There are quite a lot of gardens nearby with some exotic flowers, so it might have been some peculiar nectar coming in that smelled so strongly, although I only smelled it from one of the two hives that were next to each other. Who knows, from what I have seen, I agree with everyone else...the best defense against SHB is keeping hives strong.


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## Will (Aug 3, 2002)

Tia,
If the two weak hives are ten framers then I'd winter them by themselves piggy backed to each other w/ plenty of pollen and honey left on. As far as the two queen hive goes, you'll have to reassemble without the excluders. My only experience w/ two queeners is limited to two queens in same broodnest. This is great insurance. For if one dies overwinter/early spring, the other can take over. If both make it and are doing well, you can split them, run them as they are, whatever your needs are.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Gotcha. Thanks, Will, for all your help and patient information. As soon as this tropical storm gets past us, I'll be taking care of everything we discussed.


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