# Do Bees in Top Bars Swarm More Often?



## trapperbob (May 27, 2007)

They have a tendency to get crowded in the brood nest easier because they some times limit there nest to only so many combs then they proceed to store honey on either side of the brood nest when they do this they think there is not enough room and set up to swarm the way to avoid this is to take empty bars from the outside and insert them between brood bars this way they feel as if they have more room. For what ever reason once they crowd the nest they refuse to expand but by inserting empty bars you fool them into thinking there is more room. Not all TBHS do this some make huge brood nest but many do not and when they don't they will swarm. I had one two years ago that built out to about 15 combs but only 5-6 of these were brood and while on vacation it swarmed and when I got back they swarmed and left such a small hive behind they were to few to winter over and that one had been a new package that year.This year that same hive with a new package filled the hive entirely up the only difference was that I moved empty bars inbetween the brood combs and there are more bees in that hive than any of the langs I have. If they winter over succesfully and I suspect they will I will have to split them and I have made two more hives in the event this happens. This may sound as if this is a lot of work but I still find it easier than my langs because the only thing to lift is the cover and bars. No boxes that way to heavy after a long day at work.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

To the extent that the TBH management program essentially eliminates the ability to super/create space with drawn comb, that alone increases swarming. 

I don't have enough personal evidence having only had one year with the TBH, but Jim Fischer gave them a real go a few years ago and calls them "swarm factories"

I'd love to hear anecdotal reports from some people with extensive experience with both. 

I do really enjoy my TBH - I like the "hand" on the bars - After a long day with my traditional frames, my fingers get crampy. The TBH handles like a bat in comparison. 

-E.


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## beenovice (Jun 19, 2007)

If I compare my TBHs to my standard frame hives then TBHs indeed swarm more. It is strange sometimes. TBHs that were "half full" swarmed earlier and more than TBHs with all comb built....


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

beenovice said:


> ...TBHs that were "half full" swarmed earlier and more than TBHs with all comb built....


Beenovice,

Is this even with open bars in the brood nest to keep them from becoming honey-bound as trapperbob describes?

Adam


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

This year I started around 10 HTBH and 10 Warre hives. The top bar hives overall did swarm more than the Warre hives. However, this I believe was largely my failure to stay on top of providing them with empty bars between drawn comb early in the season. The hives in my backyard -- those that I attended the most -- never swarmed. They are also by far the largest of my colonies. The hives I could only get to every couple weeks or so never seemed to thrive and did swarm multiple times, despite having a couple feet of space left in their hive to build. 

Matt


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## beenovice (Jun 19, 2007)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Beenovice,
> 
> Is this even with open bars in the brood nest to keep them from becoming honey-bound as trapperbob describes?
> 
> Adam


I don't add any empty bars. Just leave the bees on their own. I still get couple of full honey combs at the end. Eventually they build the whole hive.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It's been suggested here and there that bees in TBH's swarm more often than those in Langstroth hives.

Hives, Langstroth or TBH, swarm when you let them get too crowded or you let the brood nest get backfilled. The bees do seem slightly more inclined to expand the brood nest up as you add boxes on a Langstroth than to move sideways in the TBH, but putting empty bars in the brood nest accomplishes this easily enough and adding empty frames to the Langstroth brood nest is also often necessary.

Assuming you manage both appropriately, by keeping the brood nest open and making sure there is room for them to expand, I see no difference.

>Is this true in general, or is it dependant on the actual size of the hive?

Certainly a small TBH will have more issues with swarming.

>What other aspects of a tbh make bees swarm more often?

Lack of management.


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

I do not have any bees yet, but my ktbh is ready for them in the spring.

When researching information on top bar hives, it was always stressed that new bars needed to be added to the brood area when it becomes honey bound. Bars of honey are moved away from the brood area, and new bars slipped into place.

If using follower boards, the followers are moved outward first, then the honey is moved out followed by empty top bars put into place on the outside of the brood area. If more honey storage is needed, the follower boards are moved out and empty top bars put into place.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I use 1" top bars with 3/8" spacers between them. When the brood nest starts to get crowded, I put a super over the brood nest. That way I get honey and prevent swarming. It's important to do this before the bees start backfilling the brood nest.


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## lovettvineyard (Jun 26, 2007)

camero7 said:


> I use 1" top bars with 3/8" spacers between them. When the brood nest starts to get crowded, I put a super over the brood nest. That way I get honey and prevent swarming. It's important to do this before the bees start backfilling the brood nest.


What are the overall dimensions of your tbh?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Have 2 TBH. Last one built is the one I will continue to use. It's 48" X 19 7/8" by 10 1/2" deep. I made it so my lang frames will fit in it or visa/versa. I use foundationless in my lang. However, I like to be able to extract so I super the TBH. My first TBH was 14" wide and I have to put an adapter on it to super it.


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## lovettvineyard (Jun 26, 2007)

Camero7,

Do the bees ever fill all 48"? 

I am going to move my bees from my 10" x 15" x 48" KTBHs to a long hive like yours that will take medium frames. This summer they filled them up(all brood) and I needed to super them and couldn't. 

I am planning to make mine = (3) 8 frame langs.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I had 30 frames of brood and the rest were honey. Hive was full. also got a medium super of honey. We had a great fall flow this year here. I have extensive Japanese bamboo which really produced.

If you check out last month's Bee Culture Magazine there's a very similar hive that got similar results to mine.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I should mention that to get the bees to fill out that much brood I needed to keep inserting new bars into the brood nest.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> It's been suggested here and there that bees in TBH's swarm more often than those in Langstroth hives.
> 
> Is this true in general, or is it dependant on the actual size of the hive?
> 
> ...


Bees do like to build up, so I would expect TBHs and other horizontal hives to produce more swarms. Though I imagine that one could manage them to minimize that swarming. Such as trimming swarm cells and expanding the brood nest by adding already drawn comb in between occupied combs.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I out bare bars in between brood combs to increase the size of the brood nest and prevent swarming. Along with supering, worked very well.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi Camero - 
How do you work the TBH lid with your supers? Do you have a full length lid for "winter configuration" and two separate lids for summer with a super? 
I'd love to see photos. 
We've got so much new interest in "alternative" beekeeping, including TBH and Warre - and the new beekeepers are so full of questions - (but with no experience at all). Photos and advice at this point are really critical. 

Thanks for your input!
-E.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I have 3 migratory style lids which I use on the long hives in the summer. It allows me to super [all foundationless frames] wherever I want. However, I've supered my hives over the brood nest to prevent swarming. Along with putting new bars into the brood nest when it starts to get crowded, this has worked very well. 

This winter I put a 2" piece of Styrofoam covered by a piece of plastic roofing, both cut to length. I have a couple of small cinder-blocks on top of them. Wouldn't be able to see much right now. In the spring, I'll take some good photos and post them here. I'm an old Mainer, farmed and worked for a migratory beek for a couple of years in the '70's. Got the bug(pun intended) to raise them again and I'm just a backyard experimenter now. I'm planning to build a double deep hive w/frames this winter and, if my 3 hives (2 top bar and one foundation-less long lang) do ok, split one to populate the new deep. Otherwise I'll buy a nuc to put in it. I'm trying to do this without chemicals and I'm not sure how my hives will do this winter.

I have one hive of carni's and 2 of F1 Russian crosses. I plan to re-queen them next summer, after the turn of days, with some F1 VSH queens from a producer in the area. 

Hope this helps explain what I'm doing. I certainly don't suggest that anyone try to follow my lead because I'm experimenting and not trying to produce for honey or pollination. But I am trying to flood the drone zone with survivors and breed survivors among my bees. I try to follow a chemical free hive but I do use essential oils and have used Honey B Healthy this year. I mainly use them as a spray and don't use smoke. I feel it upsets the bees too much.
Cam Bishop


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I should also mention that I encourage use of the supers by taking a couple of bars of honey from the hive and putting them in the supers. I find that the bees will then work the supers and don't rebuild the bars until I remove the supers.


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## A. S. Templeton (Nov 30, 2009)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> It's been suggested here and there that bees in TBH's swarm more often than those in Langstroth hives.
> Is this true in general, or is it dependant on the actual size of the hive?


I just add nadir-boxes to my Warré vTBH. Plenty of space below to expand broodnest, can add/exchange topmost box as a super if I wish, no prob, no swarming.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

For those who are unaware, the term "Nadir" means "an empty box added beneath a full one in a beehive to give the colony more room to expand or store honey."

Matt


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

empty meaning what? 
totally empty? Foundation? Drawn comb?


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> empty meaning what?
> totally empty? Foundation? Drawn comb?


Nadiring is generally done with foundationless hives -- particularly Warre hives in order to mimic nature where the colony is always drawing comb downward, as well as to retain the nest scent/heat. So in this case it would simply be a box with some top bars in it with starter strips or wax painted on the bar. I've heard of some Langstroth beekeepers doing this as well, but usually the chief end of Langstroth beekeepers is honey production/large colonies, thus the boxes are added on top for honey storage, i.e. supering. 

Cheers,
Matt


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