# all in one queen cells cast in wax



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

That looks pretty good there, I like it. Are they deep enough to slip a virgin queen into, for introduction into a hive, like in this thread? ... 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...d-simple-way-is-it-true&p=1185917#post1185917

http://www.carricell.com/#!CARICELL...on/c1c0o/2D2FAEFC-F534-4CA1-8126-CAAB82D1CA10

If not, do you think they could be made more that other way?
What did you use for the casting material?

It looks good, is giving me ideas already, thanks for sharing!


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Will you be mounting that bar on a frame?? I'd think the weight of the bees and some warm weather might have an effect?? Also how are you thinking of removing the cell from the bar?? 

Nice to be thinking queen rearing in this sub zero weather eh?


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

I like it , good idea. Looks like you used JZBZ cells for your mold. :thumbsup:


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

correct flyer jim used the cells to make the pattern and used silicone for the mould making, yes I don't see why you cannot use the cups you have mount on piece of wood and put a frame around and fill with silicone mould making material


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

I got fed up with dipping and twisting off single cups and not all of them came out even,so made a mould to cast one bar at a time, I am doing it everytime I cast some wax I just fill my mould ready for spring, I will secure by rapping wire around the length off cups, will cut off when ready because the wax should be soft enough to cut with a knife hope this helps.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Wow, that came out really good, didn't it? 
Nice job!

I could see tossing in a thin but stiff wire onto the wax when melted to support the length of the backing when placed on your bar, if sagging was an issue. Just melt the residual and reuse.


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## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

I was thinking the same thing Lauri mentioned. If you add a wire for support you wont have to worry about it sagging later on.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

why not pour the mold, then have a thin frame bar to stick right into the hot wax, just use a little less wax, issue solved.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> why not pour the mold, then have a thin frame bar to stick right into the hot wax, just use a little less wax, issue solved.


THAT'S why you get paid the big bucks


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)




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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

With a stiff wire imbedded in the wax you could actually eliminate the bar.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Looks good. Not a nay-sayer, but why?


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

Nay-sayer ?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

yeogi75 said:


> Nay-sayer ?


Pessimistic view.
Just seems more work than just grafting into cups on a bar. Then popping off the finished cell and placing into a mating nuc.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I sure hate throwing all those JZBZ cups away after one use. Seems wasteful although they are convenient to use. 
I'm also going to try this method next season of cleaning them with a lye solution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoB1SdbKwMM

Making wax cups is a good thing to do while watching TV this winter  Or shelling green bean seeds, etc. Better than sitting there like a zombie.

The quality of the finished product out of that mold is amazing. I think that is what is so attractive about it.

Hopefully you won't get just 2 or 3 drawn on the whole thing  Then what'cha goin' to do?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

In the US we call those Queen Cups, not Queen Cells, don't we? Queen Cells are made from filled Queen Cups, when beekeepers raise queens, right?


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

sqkcrk, I didn't quite know what to call them for the title, as they are queen cups then the bees add wax to make queen cells, but these are wax cups and bees make the rest in wax so all of the queen cell is wax and not half plastic and half wax, lauri, I washed mine under hot water to tap to remove excess wax


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

From the beginning of queen rearing queen cups were made from wax. It has only been relatively recently, the last 20 years or so perhaps, that they have been made of plastic.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Here is a little more on q cups, the info is about half way down the page.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/grafting.html

yeogi75 I still like your idea


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I would like to make a mold like this with silicone glue.
Do you have a plan somewhere or can give a detail description of it?
Do you first glue the inside of the plastic cell and after it is dry then pour
the rest of the silicone to make the middle ring?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It looks nice. Is this mold silicone? It kind of looks like wood, but I don't know how you would make it.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Could you modify the mold such that you could simply lay the wooden bar on top of the molten wax and then when it cools the cups would be securely attached? The wood could be reused after scraping the used cups off. Perhaps the wax portion of the "bar" in your current mold is too thick anyway.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

One of my facebook contributors for the AG page had this message for me today.

'You can make a silicone mold mix out of 50% silicone caulk (pure) nd 50% corn starch and some mineral spirits to get it thin enough to pour.'


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

right let me go thru it for you
1, silicone rtv 60 two part pink from ebay about 12.50 pounds us probably cheaper look on utube
2, get some plastic queen cups the ones with a small peg on to fit onto frame
3, take a piece of wood about the same size of queen grafting frame drill a line of holes for the pegs to go in you can double check with the frame you have taken the plastic cups from
4, you should have a row of cups the whole lengh of wod leaving a small bit each end lay onto larger board cut two pieces of thin timber to go each side and two bits to go either end to make like a pencil case box 
5, spray with either veg oil or silicone release spray and wipe clean
6, mix and pour your silicone and leave to set
that's basically it I've still got to sort out how to attach to the frame and to cut out individual cells without disturbing the rest well that's on going making queen cups like this is super fast because the cold weather allows the wax to set very quick
when I modify the way I make these moulds I will take pictures step by step and put on here for everyone thanks
Dave Cushman used to live 5 miles from me unfortunately did not meet him I look at his web site a lot for inspiration he was a very knowledgeable man


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

yeogi75 said:


> I've still got to sort out how to attach to the frame and to cut out individual cells without disturbing the rest


You could cut the cups out prior to use, then use molten wax to glue them to the bar individually.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I ran a taxidermy business for yrs. If you want to mold something on the cheap get a $2 tube of 100 % silicone caulk in the tube and squirt it into a cup. Stirr in about 6-8 drops of cheap acrylic paint paint per 1/4 cup of silicone. ( the more paint you put the quicker the silicone will kick .) On the slow end you should have about 15- 20 min working time. on the fast end you'll have about 2 min. , if you use too much paint it will turn to a gooey mess so play around with it. The result will be a nice flexible mold with minimum shrinkage.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks for the tips! 
I'm pretty good with silicone already. 
A Little putty, little paint, we can make it what it ain't.. 

But making a mold will be new for me. Look forward to it.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

if you have fine details you want to pickup a thin coat of just silicone first will help Here is a tutorial 

http://www.taxidermy.net/forum/index.php/topic,39157.0.html


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Lauri, you are a multi-talented woman. Is there anything in this world that you don't know?
From concepts to reality! Beesource has a wealth of talents and intellect individuals. 

To get the wax cells out, you can lay a strip of thin tin on top when you are pouring the wax into the mold. The
tin is flexible enough but rigid to hold these cells in a row. Also, leave enough tins ~1" at either end so you can pick
up the wax strip better. Bend the tins end down when you fasten the wax/tin strip along with the cells onto the wooden bar.
A small plastic zip-tie at both ends and one at the center will hold this bar in place. The tin will help break off the wax better or use
a hot knife when it is time to take these cells off. I'm sure the tin strip will make the wax strip rigid
enough to support all the cells. Also, with the tin strip you don't need to form the wax strip bar that thick which will help with the breaking off them.
Now the wooden strip wax bar can be made thinner.

Anyways, thanks for the mold making infos. Now this is where it gets interesting. I'm trying to
make a frame full of non-grafting cells where the queen can lay directly into the queen cup. I got 2000s
of these green plastic queen cups at .008 cents per.
Imagine after 4 days you can just unplug these plastic/wax cups to put inside your cell builders along
with the young larva--all no grafting. Can it bee done using the various silicone mold techniques and method? 

Just an idea here. I saw a youtube vid of the beekeeper using nailed frame to uncap his honey frames without damaging the combs. But he
first drilled a bunch of holes into a thin plank to make his nail frame. 


Potential prototype of non-graft cheap plastic queen cups:


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Lauri said:


> I sure hate throwing all those JZBZ cups away after one use. Seems wasteful although they are convenient to use.


Wash them in a washing machine (laundry) with dishwasher cleaner (less perfumes). Some small dots remain, but bees take them like new.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Wash them in a washing machine (laundry) with dishwasher cleaner (less perfumes). Some small dots remain, but bees take them like new.


Interesting idea, but I'm not sure my wife is going to buy into that program. Afraid I'd have some "splaining to do" if she caught me carrying a bucket full of them into the laundry room.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

We have saved old laundry machines for working clothes. I would not dream of putting them into the one wife is using...


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Juhani Lunden said:


> I would not dream of putting them into the one wife is using...


So, it's that way in Finland too? :lookout:
I wouldn't have thought of putting them in a clothes washer. I imagine that saves quite a bit of time. I'll have to remember that one. Thanks!


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Double post


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Nice job, but watch out for bubbles 

I suspect that if heat was to become an issue you will notice in all that wax holding the weight of honey lang before you find it in this bar. It will be interesting to see what sort of take you gt in those cells.

Seriously there is another conversation about casting molds with Silicone. it might be helpful if you shared your experience in that conversation.

Nice job at doing something different. I like different. I like different even more when everything currently is garbage.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

Harley Craig. Thanks for sharing.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

If you mix number 1 silicone caulk and some water together. It will cure it faster. Silicone caulk cure by moisture. Does not work with number 2
David


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

My-smokepole said:


> If you mix number 1 silicone caulk and some water together. It will cure it faster. Silicone caulk cure by moisture. Does not work with number 2
> David


Exactly silicone is moisture cure I use acrylic paint so I know when it's mixed good so I can spread as soon as possible as it can kick fairly quick


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

For silicone moulds were use our dental impression powder. Mix as thin or as thick as desired. Works great.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

yeogi75 said:


> I have just cast some queen cells


For those of us new to casting, can you post instructions?

Regards,
Janet


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

#25 has the instruction already. 


The plastic cups can be clean up by boiling them in hot water.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

beepro said:


> The plastic cups can be clean up by boiling them in hot water.


Nicot cups reform somewhat with boiling water, especially the cups, little brown ones, do not fit any more.

In laundry machine I set the machine in 158F (70C).


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Nicot cups reform somewhat with boiling water, especially the cups, little brown ones, do not fit any more.


Same is true for Jenter cups. 

Has anyone boiled JZBZ cups?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> Has anyone boiled JZBZ cups?


Yes, Jury is still out on how well they are accepted afterwards. I also dip them in wax before grafting. that does seem to help with acceptance rates. I don't see any reason to think boiling reduces acceptance rate. My rate simply sucked for other reasons.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

beepro said:


> The plastic cups can be clean up by boiling them in hot water.


I've tried that a few times. the results are poor. Cups are quite grungy, old dried jelly still stuck in the bottom, etc. Cleaning them has to be cost (Time) effective over buying new ones. I still like that lye solution/tumbler method idea. Shown in post # 16.


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

i have been asked to put up some pictures for you here are they are,
first you need some queen cells to cast the cups in wax.







first cut some wood same size of the frame and width , then drill some holes all the way along as pic 1 and attach the cups














then attach the piece of wood to a larger piece of wood then cut two sides and two ends for the mould as pic 2







then glue the lot together and leave over night to set as pic 3







this is the silicone I have used from Ireland on ebay but im sure there is some where close to you I sprayed my mould before pouring wax with frying spray veg oil to help with release but its not important as any defects will be sorted by the bees.
good luck hope this helps
im going to make a frame so these fit in and lay flat on top of brood box and the cups are in the right position for queen cells


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks for the clear infos and pics. Is there a way that you can improve on this
method to produce a non-grafting cups that the queen can directly lay into the queen cups?
This way you don't have to graft the larva into the cups. Any ideas here?


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

yeogi - do you care to share with how you plan to go about making this frame. I was thinking something similar but was worried that the large size of the cups would cause the queen to lay drone eggs versus fertilized eggs.


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

beepro, that is something I have to think out, what I am thinking is like a frame of coomb laid on top of frames like you do when you cut out cells between rows on the frame to emulate hanging cells for queen cells, if I can make something I can slide out fourteen cups out and cut up to put into nucs, im still in the thinking stage at the moment, and its easy to just pour wax as im making other wax goodies any surplus wax goes into mould.

marshmasterpat, not yet tested, as im hoping because there are so many of them pointing downwards, and hoping the nurse bees will prepare them to take eggs the queen will lay them up, without having to graft that is my aim, weather they are drone or queens, im hoping they treat them the same as queen frame that you buy and put in with about twenty cells on a frame im hoping for about fifty + a frame.


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

beepro
I was thinking of giving this frame to a hive that was full of bees ,queen and ten frames of new foundation, that way the queen only has the cells to lay any ideas, I am still thinking of smaller cells in rows that can be removed in strips and put in a finisher hive. but will try this as im making this in larger scale it might be possible to scale down in cell size but will test this idea and maybe next winter if it fails will start on smaller cell .


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

From my queen grafting experience, you can only make queens from the worker eggs with the queen laying
in the worker cells. An egg that got laid in the drone cell, bigger than the worker cell, the larva will turn into a drone bee.
Any cells bigger than the worker cell the queen will deposit a drone egg in there. 

So it just so happened that you are using standard queen cups (almost bigger than the drone cells) for the mold. So every wax duplication is a queen cup. Even if the queen will lay in there the big cup size will turn into a drone egg that the workers will eventually removed them once matured. If the worker will not remove them they will turn into a drone bee later on. This is not good for queen making as every queen comes from the worker female egg.
So on a non-grafting cup (we are thinking to make) the queen first has to laid inside a worker size cell that turn into a queen cup after the larva has hatched. Then removed these queen cups to put on your builder frame and hive. Make any sense to you?

The nicot and genter already have a non graft set up. I am trying to make an entire frame of removable queen cups to select the different larvae because the drones are different on each egg that I cannot tell yet what kind of queen it will produce.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

yeogi75 said:


> beepro I am still thinking of smaller cells in rows that can be removed in strips and put in a finisher hive.


This is doable but the workers still need to expand the small cells into a queen cell to make room for the RJ (royal jelly) deposit. But if you get the queen to lay inside the
small worker cells first that turn into a queen cup once it is removed then the RJ can be fill in faster to make the new queen larva. It is less work too all in one frame system.



yeogi75 said:


> beepro
> I was thinking of giving this frame to a hive that was full of bees ,queen and ten frames of new foundation, that way the queen only has the cells to lay any ideas,


As long as the queen not laying on the other frames then she will give you some larva. The trick is how to make her lay in the frame that you want her to. I'm a bit foggy on this
idea still. 

Maybe you can take my thinking to make it better for our little invention, eh? Make a mold to duplicate all the small worker cells that turn into queen cups for queen making, no graft.


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

hi beepro
the census on this side of the pond is the same as yours and think it will be too hit and miss, so stage two if I can get some smaller cells made that will drop into the cells I have produced, taking the internal dimensions to 5mm will have to get some measurements of my cells to duplicate and have a rethink
cheers
terry


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

if I pour enough wax to fill just the cup this is what you get


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

yeogi75 said:


> if I pour enough wax to fill just the cup this is what you get
> View attachment 14642
> View attachment 14643


Turns out more like the wax cell cups from the silicone moulds that Thornes sell.
http://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=4464


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Looks like you have improve a bit on the smaller cell size. But it is still too big on the inside diameter. Look at the regular worker cell/comb size to compare. You are getting closer though. Yes, the details we have to brainstorm a bit to work it out. 

And it is a multiple mold making process to produce a workable smaller cup model to fit into the bigger one.
That part I already figured out for you. Go back to look at the pic on thread #30 here. That is to use high temp. silicone to make the smaller worker cell hole that will fit into the bigger plastic or wax cup. Maybe to use wood or wax side guard strips to fit all these wax cups into and then lay them onto the entire frame for the queen to lay in.
Thread #30 pic show the smaller hole for a standard WORKER comb cell. The red color silicone rubber mold will fit into a plastic/wax cup that you are making.

So the last part of this process is how to fit all of these silicone cups into the entire frame for the queen to lay. Can you figure out the most efficient way to fit the most cups into a standard deep frame? I am using all deep frames on my hive set up.

Or you can improve on this method to make mold from these cups after you finished the entire frame with cups so that you can duplicate the entire frame like the wax mold making you have now. This will allow you to do a massive duplication with wax every time. The high temp. red silicone will withstand 500F or more. This one you have to figure it out. Maybe to let us know the solution(s) too. There are a few variations here you can play with. Remember to always improve on the existing one.


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

hi HM
yes they do look like them from throne's but if you look at previous pics I have poured wax only into cell and not the bar on top giving single cells


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Beepro - Did you think of using a block of wax and having a CNC drill the right size holes, then a die cuts around them forming the outside diameters of the cups? Sounds simple, and you can experiment with the sizes. Even more on the cheap, do it without a CNC on your drill press, If you like boring work. The dies are sharpened, polished, and perhaps heated tubes. Your "Jenter Box" is a block of plastic with holes the wax cups fit into. Queen lays directly into the cups. PM to crazy Roland - he's a machinist/beekeeper.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I like the idea of drilling worker holes. But have a hard time visualizing your ideas.
Wouldn't it be too big of the cell hole for the queen to lay in? If the cup is too big 
then the queen will only lay the drone eggs. Even with securing the plastic cups on the
frame the question is still how to make the inner hole of these cups smaller for the queen to deposit her worker eggs in.
It is not that simple to get the best possible workable solution yet. Maybe you can thinker more.
My other thoughts was to glue these silicone cups onto the plastic waxed frame with the worker egg holes already drilled in. 
Then put on the plastic cups to fit over these silicone cups. Next is to line the plastic cups with a spray oil film to remove them better after the silicone mold had dry.
And pour a silicone mold making substance onto the frame to form a solid mold over these plastic cups. After drying just removed the plastic cups. 
Once the larvae hatched then just pick these plastic cups off the silicone mold to put into your cell builder hive. 
Can you think of a better way to make this work?


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

What silicone mold product brand did you use?


yeogi75 said:


> I have just cast some queen cells


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## yeogi75 (Oct 25, 2014)

this what I used can be purchased from ebay but there lots of the same closer to you one tub used for the job hope that helps


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