# black vs white plastic foundation



## learning (Jan 19, 2009)

So why would one use black vs white plastic foundation?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Why would one use plastic foundation at all? oh, labor saving.....


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

learning said:


> So why would one use black vs white plastic foundation?


If you're going to use plastic frames/foundation in your brood boxes it makes it VERY easy to see where the queen is laying if you use Black.....those little eggs are very visible against a black background.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*black vs white plastic*

I use 100% black plastic foundation that is snapped into my cut down full depth frames in my mating yards.
I am expanding my operation and it will also be 100% black.
The one single reason is that *the black makes looking for eggs or brood easier *when I/we work the hives.
FYI: It takes about 40 + hours to wire 1,000 frames and that if your fingers do not get tender.
Plastic is durable, cost effective and saves labor.

I can not prove it but plastic may help the bees overwinter because of the additional insulation. I have not seen any claims .
No assembly, no eyelets, no wirring, no embedding, no sagging of foundation if they are not used the 1st year, and no wasted time.
Regards,
Ernie
(Queen Breeder )


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## BeeAware (Mar 24, 2007)

If it were not for Pierco frames and foundation, I'd give up beekeeping! No time for assembling frames and installing wax that often falls out into the box during hot weather. If you melt some clean wax and add a little to the plastic frames or foundation, they are superior to anything else I have found. I use all black.


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

If they made small cell frames in plastic I would be all over it.....but they don't as far as I know.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

White is so you can see the color of the honey. Black is so you can see the eggs in the bottom.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If they made small cell frames in plastic I would be all over it.....but they don't as far as I know. 

Mann Lake makes PF100s and PF120s that are 4.95mm cell size. They are well accepted and work fine.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I bought the mannlake 4.9 frames in black. I was thinking it would be easier to write dates on the white frames with a sharpy. Whats a good way to label the black frames?


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## learning (Jan 19, 2009)

You can get silver sharpies.


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## learning (Jan 19, 2009)

I actually want to do foundationless. I was just looking at catalogs and websites. The issue I have with all wax foundation is that I don't know what chemicals are in it. If I am going to try and not treat with them why would I want them from the very beginning in the foundation?


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## mgmoore7 (Jul 6, 2007)

JPK1NH said:


> If they made small cell frames in plastic I would be all over it.....but they don't as far as I know.


google "Honey Super Cell". 4.9 plastic in white or black.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

I use all white foundation and really wish I had used black. It is really hard at 51 to see eggs against white foundation.:doh: Next year I will likely sell off my hives with white foundation.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I was just looking at catalogs and websites. The issue I have with all wax foundation is that I don't know what chemicals are in it.

Actually you can count on high levels of Fluvalinate and Cumaphos (Apistan and Check Mite) and medium levels of Amitraz and a few other homegrown remedies as well as other commonly used pesticides from the fields in lower levels.


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

mgmoore7 said:


> google "Honey Super Cell". 4.9 plastic in white or black.


WOW, $120/20 frames is pretty steep.

Nice idea that they are already fully drawn out but.....


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

JPK1NH said:


> WOW, $120/20 frames is pretty steep.
> 
> Nice idea that they are already fully drawn out but.....


At $6 a frame they are spendy. But if small cell is your
goal, they are worth it. No messed up comb, less chemical
absorption, pressure wash cleaning, etc.


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Sundance said:


> At $6 a frame they are spendy. But if small cell is your
> goal, they are worth it. No messed up comb, less chemical
> absorption, pressure wash cleaning, etc.


That is my goal....trying to do it in a cost effective way at the same time.

I've been told that Mann Lake PF100, 105 and 120 are small cell as well. Clearly not drawn out already but....at $1.70 or less each its much more cost effective....at least initially.

Can anyone else confirm that the Mann Lake plastic is small cell?


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

JPK1NH said:


> Can anyone else confirm that the Mann Lake plastic is small cell?


Yes they are.......... 4.95mm I think. But a call to the
factory is wise before placing an order. I doubt they
will change the mold, but I'd check.

The trouble with Mann Lake and foundation is they will draw
out some pretty crazy stuff many times. Especially in the
initial intros. There will be a good number of scrape offs and
redo. But they are cheaper, and lighter.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I tried some small cell foundation (wax). It is "Only recommended for experienced beekeepers" or so the catalog said. Apparently I am not an experienced beekeeper because if I want a laugh I just pull one of those frames. (I mark the top bar with the year and type).

I doubt that even one cell was drawn small cell. They are just crazy looking. I used a half a box of foundation and the rest sits waiting on me to become more experienced.


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

> They are just crazy looking.

Any photos? Sounds like something worth seeing.

Where did the small cell foundation come from?


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

magnet-man said:


> I use all white foundation and really wish I had used black. It is really hard at 51 to see eggs against white foundation.:doh: Next year I will likely sell off my hives with white foundation.


Being around the same age, MM - I see (with reading glasses) your point. 

Yep, like most everyone else has said, black for eggs, white for honey. It really does make a huge difference to be able to see if and where your queen is laying. And also to be able to see larval stages...

MM


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

beedeetee said:


> I used a half a box of foundation and the rest sits waiting on me to become more experienced.


I've had a little experience beekeeping. I had about a hundred sheets of 5.1 and 4.9 mm foundation left over from my two year small cell experiment. I melted them down in my wax melter last summer. They were worth more to me as a block of wax.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

All the "fully drawn" plastic is larger at the mouth than at the bottom. So with HSC although the mouth calculates (discounting the extra thickness of the cell wall) to 4.95mm, the bottom is 4.85 which averages out to 4.9mm.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Black vs white*

I dont think the bees care as much as the beekeeper. Since we started purchasing plastic foundation I can't believe all the hours we used to spend wiring frames. Those good ol days in the bee business weren't neccessarily so good. Looking back at it I think i'd rather spend the time fighting the mites than the spur imbedder or the hot wire machine. I quess I need to ponder on that some more.

One consideration for those who will be using plastic in mating nuc frames. Three years ago we custom made 10,000 mini mating nuc frames where we custom cut Mann Lake Ritecell on the router. 50% were yellow foundation and 50% were the black. The bees loved the foundation either way but the problem we encountered was when the skunks figured out how to disassemble the nucs and tear out the frames. If we came back in a couple of days the black ones were shot by the heat of the sun but we could reuse the yellows with hardly a problem. We just finished building 12,000 more last week to gear up for the coming year. Needless to say all of them are made of the light colored foundation. If we can't trap or ******* all the darn skunks at least we can minimize the damage with the light foundation.


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