# Any good rules of thumb of when to add the next level on a foundationless hive?



## pedrocr (Jun 5, 2012)

I run foundationless and one of the things I've struggled most with is when to add a next level to a hive so that the bees don't run out of space but that I'm not also giving them too much space they get confused. This week I added a second level to one of my hives that had filled all 10 frames except one which was already drawn out but not full yet. I moved two frames to the second level. Now I'm second guessing that decision wondering if I had left them another week they would be more efficient at filling out that frame. Any good rules of thumb of when to add that second level?


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

I run foundationless and add another box once they have drawn out around 80%. If the outer frames in the lower box are the same size as the new box and the outer frames have been started; I sometimes pull the outer frames, move the remaining frames out in order to "crowd the brood nest" with undrawn frames. I then place the two frames I pulled into the center of the new box separated by an undrawn frame. If the frames are different sizes, I'll either move the outer frames closer to the brood nest or pull them and crowd the brood nest with undrawn frames.


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## pedrocr (Jun 5, 2012)

I've done something similar in the past but then worry I'm giving them too much space in the brood nest while they're still building up. When you say 80% you mean when on average all frames have 80% coverage?


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Basically when 8 frames are mostly drawn, sometimes they're reluctant to draw out the comb completely so I fill in some of the space between the bottom of the comb and the bottom bar with burr comb and they'll finish drawing the complete frame. Nothing says you can't add the upper box and manipulate the other frames later, leaving the outer frames undrawn isn't a big thing; I'm more concerned with them not having sufficient room.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Pedrocr, What you did was about right, you opened the brood nest, which helps to prevent swarming, and moved comb up to entice them to move up.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I always add the second box to the bottom and put a drawn comb in it if you have it, even if you steal it from the previous box. By the third box I don't want to lift boxes to check to see if it's drawn or not, so I start adding them to the top with a drawn comb in the middle, from the box below.


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## pedrocr (Jun 5, 2012)

I should probably try that next time. My hive model has the bottom box screwed into the base board but it's not too hard to do the swap and I can always just move it frame by frame.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

For spring build up, I have top entrances, brood nest is on top. When I add a box, I push 3 brood combs to it in a compact arrangement, above brood combs below. They will work hard building comb in that top box. Depending, I will drop combs below as they get built into the box below until it is full. When the 2nd box below is full, then I add another box, doing the same thing. Its an easy way to manage foundationless comb in the spring. They gradually leave behind empty comb in the lower boxes. 

Once the main flow starts happening, I'm going to reverse the set up, put the brood nest in the bottom 2 or 3 boxes below an excluder with the left behind empty comb on top. I didn't use excluders this past 2 years and when the main flow started happening, management became tricky. By this time its warm, and I can start putting gaps in the brood nest to continue making comb there, while managing comb in the honey supers. In the honey supers, any partial boxes of comb are filled out with plastic frames to keep things under control.


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