# Checkerboarding



## NeilV

*Re: Checkboarding*

It's not too early to talk about checkerboarding at all. You need to plan what you are going to do next late winter/early spring.

I would try to checkerboard the top two boxes. By the time that you do the checkerboarding, you will have empty comb to checkerboard with. If you get lucky, they will have cleaned out most of the 3rd box and you can checkerboard the 3rd box with the fourth box.

That checkerboarding will help. However, a key part of checkerboarding is adding a box of empty drawn comb above the checkerboarded boxes. People focus on the mixing of combs with honey and empty, due to the "checkerboarding" label. However, a big part of it is to get the bees up in the top box (all empty, drawn comb) early in the year. For that you will need drawn comb. You might see if somebody has some for sale. 

Otherwise, you do the best you can with what you have and monitor closely for swarm preparations. That's what everybody has to do at first, so don't worry too much about it.


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## Grant

*Re: Checkboarding*



Barney said:


> I tried using foundation and the bees just extended the combs, in the area where there was no brood, on either side of the foundation and man what a mess I had.


I have this problem when I insert new plastic foundation in between drawn comb. Not nearly so much of a problem with wax foundation, or when I paint a nice coat of beeswax on that plastic foundation. When I insert foundation between frames of brood, no problem at all.

Checkerboarding has helped me get more foundation drawn, which I rotate up to the supers. 

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## tecumseh

*Re: Checkboarding*

snip...
There seems to always be brood in the 4th box

tecumseh:
prior to the time when folks reinvented the wheel by calling it anything besides 'a wheel' this process was called 'opening up the brood nest' by folks that made their living with bees.

as your comments suggest this 'tool' in the hands of the inexperience keeper can have some significant down side. those that market this new and improved wheel seemed to be inclined to NEVER comment on the downside consequence of this manipulation.


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## NeilV

*Re: Checkboarding*

Hey there panther,

Nice to see you passed in the night.

If somebody is checkerboarding with foundation, that's not really checkerboarding at all. That's sticking foundation between the frames of honey.

But you are right that this is really just a way to open up the brood area and get the bees to work in the top of the hive at the same time. However, if you have the drawn comb to do it and know when to do it, its pretty easy. In fact, it gives even starting beekeepers a plan to follow, which beats having no plan at all. 

The problem, as this thread demonstrates, is that starting beekeepers don't have the drawn comb that is really needed. 

Neil


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## NewbeeNnc

*Re: Checkboarding*

So maybe for others that jump on this thread it would be nice to have an example or brief explanation of checkerboarding, and times to do it, as Mr. Bush has stated that bloom times have a lot to do with making this successful. Anyone with experience please elaborate for the rest of us that have not done this before.


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## AR Beekeeper

*Re: Checkboarding*

One reason for brood in the 4th box is that three 8 frame mediums doesn't give the queen enough laying space.

Walt Wright describes Checkerboarding in his articles listed in Point of View located in Beesource Home page.


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## tecumseh

*Re: Checkboarding*

neilv writes:
The problem, as this thread demonstrates, is that starting beekeepers don't have the drawn comb that is really needed. 

tecumseh:
and good day to you neilv.

that would be problem numero uno. I can casually think of several more.

this is not to suggest that I don't open up the brood nest come spring time.


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## KQ6AR

*Re: Checkboarding*

Hi Tecuseh, 
I can see you have something interesting to say, & I would like to hear the other reasons.



tecumseh said:


> neilv writes:
> and good day to you neilv.
> 
> that would be problem numero uno. I can casually think of several more.
> 
> this is not to suggest that I don't open up the brood nest come spring time.


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## tecumseh

*Re: Checkboarding*

kqcar:
1) overhanging everything is....no manipulation comes without some risk. the real compounding problem is that most new beekeeper do not have the experience to weight the risk (which they have never encountered before) and determine an appropriate degree to apply this manipulation.

2) if you expand this manipulation too far then you are quite likely to encourage the development of a vertical brood nest that goes from the very bottom to almost the top of the stack. this may encourage other problems later in the season from both shb and wax moth. personally I would rather encourage a horizontal brood nest since this suits my purposes in raising something of a honey crop and raising more and more and more bees. 

3) if you draw the brood nest out too far and you are not shielded somewhat from significant swings in temperature (primarily nighttime) then chilled brood is likely to result. I suspect for this reason alone that this manipulation would likely be much more successful if the new beekeeper lived somewhat close to the coast where the water would moderate temperature swings.

4) if you make a mistake and move what appears to be an empty frame away from the primary brood nest and this frame contains ANY eggs then you have quite likely created (via this manipulation alone) the perfect circumstance for superscedure even though there is absolutely nothing wrong with the existing queen.

oh.. I said a couple and produced 4, sorry about that. perhaps with a bit more thinking I could generate a couple of more?

once again I do regularly 'open up the brood nest' in just about every hive I have once in the early spring time. here this manipulation is NEVER about a honey cap (& if I had one of these come late spring then certainly I had done a lot of things wrong in the prior season) . I do not however need to retag this manipulation as anything else beyond what it has always been.


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## Michael Palmer

*Re: Checkboarding*



tecumseh said:


> once again I do regularly 'open up the brood nest' in just about every hive I have once in the early spring time. here this manipulation is NEVER about a honey cap (& if I had one of these come late spring then certainly I had done a lot of things wrong in the prior season) . I do not however need to retag this manipulation as anything else beyond what it has always been.


What?? You keep bees south of zone 5 and don't have a honey cap??? I thought the theory was that all colonies from zone 5 south had a honey cap in the spring.  

Of course they don't all...and I'm like you...If they do I figure I did something wrong...like left too much honey on. And if it is there, it's crystallized and I sure don't want to leave that honey CB'd up there in my supers.

Greetings from zone 3/4 where our bees seem to act just like your bees T.


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## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

NeilV:
It so happens that this season (09) was dedicated to that very problem. The beginner with only foundation to work with in the second season needs a way to offset swarming in the second season. Five last year starters were set up in the fall to what I call fully established - all cavity space filled with frames of brood and stores. Done by taking from the haves and giving to have-nots. With only foundation to work with, that's a formula for swarming the following spring. This first test was a miserable failure. 4 of 5 swarmed. Not through yet. Have a couple other things to try. Will likely open a thread this winter to discuss the details.

tecumseh:
Your negativism is duly noted. Have a full slate this morning, but will get back to you. From your "wheel" references, it is apparent that you do not recognize that CB is NOT related to the concepts of opening the brood nest or the "clear brood nest" concepts of Seacrist. There is no brood nest disturbance with CB. Will treat your reservations by the numbers when I have more time.

Walt W


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## valleyman

*Re: Checkboarding*

As was posted earlier I would like to know what checkboarding is and what is its purpose. I went to Micheal Bush's site and didn't find it. Help:scratch:


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## jdpro5010

*Re: Checkboarding*

Valleyman, read until your hearts delight!

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/


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## throrope

*Re: Checkboarding*

Thank you for this thread.

I've been fighting swarming since getting my first hive through the winter. I winter with two deeps and top feeder and haven't lost a hive. My hives don't move and I feed well every fall.

Last year I was late with the excluders and all my comb honey supers housed drones.

From the descriptions I read, checkerboarding appears to need more than two boxes. I must also be less than astute, because I can't follow the procedures. Does anyone know of an illustration like a cut away with circles and arrows showing where the checkerboarded frames come from / go to?

Barring that, I'm going to reverse deeps and stick with my excluders next year. From other insight, I'm thinking swarms may not be that bad or something you should battle.


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## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

tecumseh:
Primary transportation is broke. Have time sooner than expected. We've scrimmaged on this subject before. My recommendation from that earlier off-line communication is still valid. Until you try the concepts yourself, you are not in a position to critique them. Imagining possible problems doesn't cut it.

By the numbers:
1) Risk: The risk is minimal. With no brood nest disturbance, and maintaining capped honey at the top, in contact with the nest for feed, where is this risk about which you speak? The concept is specifally tailored to the uninformed beginner.

2)Vertical broodnest growth: The colony is at liberty to grow the brood exactly as they choose. CB does not push them in any direction. Typically, here, the colony has expanded the brood laterally to nearly fill their basic deep before the manip. Have seen a couple cases of the brood nest smokestacking up through center frames. The cause was an abnormally cold Feb and not CB. Those colonies expanded the brood upward in the heat rise of brood nest, which is generally centered.

3)Brood chilling: Again - NO BROOD NEST DISTURBANCE. The bees, left to do it their way, only expand the brood nest at a rate that they can protect. Cold nights were not invented in Texas. They have been operating in temperature swings for a very long time and they know the routine. Have never seen chilled brood - with or without CB. Your opening the brood nest (a major disruption) is much more likely to create that chilling.

4)Supersedure by relocating eggs: Can't address this one. Since I don't scramble the brood nest, will not guess whether that is valid or not.

oh I, for one, can do okay without any more contrived "problems" based on guesswork. If you try it, you might be surprised at the results.

One last note: Your "opening the brood nest" is effective swarm prevention. When and if you recognize that "repro cut off" is a real point on your vegetative development, it's easy to understand why. A major upheaval of the brood nest stops development for the time it takes to recover. If it takes a couple weeks to reorganize, they may miss the deadline of c/o. While your bees are working out of their upheaval, the CBed colony is adding brood volume at their accelerating rate. Which do you think will have more bees to exploit the flow?

Walt


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## Michael Palmer

*Re: Checkboarding*



wcubed said:


> If it takes a couple weeks to reorganize, they may miss the deadline of c/o. While your bees are working out of their upheaval, the CBed colony is adding brood volume at their accelerating rate. Which do you think will have more bees to exploit the flow?
> 
> Walt


If and may. I can say that reversing the broodnest does nothing like set a colony back 2 weeks. It really doesn't seem to set them back at all. The bees and queen jump right on the empty comb...another example would be cell builders that get all rearranged and torn apart and such and the queen goes on laying like notheing happened. No de-celeration of brood rate.

Just what/when is this c/o deadline. The point in time when bees will no longer swarm? Can't be that. Bees will swarm all summer long if the conditions are right. Those summer swarms are overcrowded swarms and the spring ones are repro swarms? If that's it, why are the symptoms of both the same...bees reach cavity limit, backfill the broodnest, start swarm preps. Management is the same, too...provide overhead storage space for the incoming. Same in the spring, same in the summer, and same in the Fall.


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## heaflaw

*Re: Checkboarding*

You guys are above me with the sophisticated manipulations, but I am learning a lot. Please keep up the discussions on the forum for the rest of us. 

Once you get beyond the basic beginning level, the problem in learning is separating what is truly important from what is marginally important to do. And there are so many variables: not just with the bees but with what the beekeepers goals are also. I can see that some of you guys have almost a "sixth sense" of understanding how the bees work that seems to go beyond simple cause & effect or being able to express in human language what is going on.


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## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

heaflaw:
Generally, I don't participate in discussions of opinion that serve no purpose.

This may be the thread to make a stand for CB. The title is certainly suitable, even though misspelled. Checkerboarding is my game, and I'm likely to be qualified to respond to questions. Bring on the naysayers. It may take me all winter, but it may be worth the time.

Mike:
Been trying to find time to respond to your extensive postings on the ganbee thread. Am somewhat pleased that you enjoy heckling concepts advocated by old Walt. Everybody needs a lighter diversion to offset the drudgery of daily survival. Can we transfer some of that to this thread?

Don't think I have said or implied that the changes in colony development were conscious decisions by the colony in the sense of deductive logic. It's amazing to me the amount of survival strategy that can be handed down genetically by "instinct". An example that I use sometimes is the robins nest. Robins don't go to nest building school, but they all build a similar nest - rough twigs, with a mud liner. The hanging basket nest of the red winged blackbird is even more complex.

Another hymenopter that I find interesting from the standpoint of inherited instincts is the mud dauber. They feed their young on paralyzed spiders and they know instinctively where to find them. Open a mud nest and you will find spiders you have never seen - no matter how outdoorsey you are. They also have a couple other genetic gifts. In dry weather, they tank up at a reliable water source and go to a soil with the right properties and make their own mud. They also know, instinctively, how to lure the big spider morsel out of it's tunnel of webbing. Immune to the adhesive effects of spider webbing they jump up and down to simulate the vibration of the spiders ensnared victim. The spider investigates to its its peril.

All this to say that some very complex survival traits can be conveyed by the genes of genetics, or however instincts are carried to the next generation. Our honey bee reprodutive instincts are as complex as it gets. It's little wonder that deciphering the code has taken so long.

Will get back to your posting on this thread - soon.

Walt


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## Adrian Quiney WI

*Re: Checkboarding*

I'm enjoying this, bravo Beesource. Threads like this, where proponents of different methods debate, offer lots to beginners like myself . However, Barney in post #1 was asking what is the beginner - who has no drawn supers of comb supposed to do. 
I am in the same position. If any of my four hives survive the winter I only have 6 medium frames with a tracing of comb drawn on them to distribute amongst my other undrawn medium boxes of frames.
Would someone chime in with the best way for a beginner in this position to proceed in the spring to avoid the swarming that is likely to ensue. Thanks again for this entertaining and interesting discussion. Adrian.opcorn:


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## throrope

*Re: Checkboarding*

tecumseh

You're not helping.


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## brooksbeefarm

*Re: Checkboarding*

I get by just fine using the Richard Taylor way, take three frames of comb out of the middle of the lower brood box and replace with foundation in the spring. This gives the bees something to do and helps delay swarming or stops it altogether.It also gives me three frames of drawn comb to start a nuc, But no method is a sure thing in beekeeping,at leaset i haven't found it. Jack


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## throrope

*Re: Checkboarding*

brooksbeefarm

Just three frames from the lower deep and no reversal?

Use the three for nucs.

I like it. Helps accomplish comb renewal too.


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## Barry

*Re: Checkboarding*

This thread will come to a close if the name calling and personal jabs don't end. Lighten up.


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## Steve717

*Re: Checkboarding*

Back to the original question....

The proper method of Nectar Management or Checkerboarding...
The winter configuration of the colony is a deep and 2 shallows. There is a shallow on the bottom which is empty honey comb, and one on the top of the deep which is full of capped honey. The hive will be from bottom up; shallow, deep, shallow. 

FFFFFFFFFF (shallow)
BBBBBBBBBB (deep)
EEEEEEEEEE (shallow)

On a warm day in late winter reconfigure the colony by placing the deep on the bottom and the 2 shallows on top. In each shallow alternate the frames with empty and full honey comb. The hive will be from bottom up; deep, shallow, shallow. 

The frames and suppers will be: 
FEFEFEFEFE (shallow)
EFEFEFEFEF (shallow)
BBBBBBBBBB (deep)

At the same time place a shallow super on top to give the bees a place to expand.

You cannot use foundation for checkerboarding; the bees need the empty comb to allow the queen to lay eggs and the workers to store nectar. 

This technique is an efficient way to prevent swarming while promoting honey production and pollen storage for the fall.


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## throrope

*Re: Checkboarding*

Steve717

Thank you. As always, a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## valleyman

*Re: Checkboarding*

Wow, after having read this forum twice I can't figure out whether I have been _dazzled by brilliance or baffled by bullcrap. What I have figured out is that I would rather watch for swarms and try to catch them rather than try to figure out who is right and who isn't. *A FAIRLEY NEW BEEK.*_


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## jdpro5010

*Re: Checkboarding*

Welcome to beekeeping valleyman!


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## brooksbeefarm

*Re: Checkboarding*



throrope said:


> brooksbeefarm
> 
> Just three frames from the lower deep and no reversal?
> 
> Use the three for nucs.
> 
> I like it. Helps accomplish comb renewal too.



Richard Taylor, wrote articles for the Bee Culture mag.,a long time beekeeper that had a way of explaining things he done in beekeeping that worked for him and made it plain and simple.He passed away a few years ago and no one has come close of replacing him that i'm aware of. His books on beekeeping are still available. Jack


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## StevenG

*Re: Checkboarding*

Barry, don't close the thread, just delete the offenders... the thread is very valuable.

Valleyman... One thing you'll learn is to experiment. try the different methods in your own hives, and you'll quickly discover what works, and what doesn't. Unless, of course, the weather or the bees decide differently! :lookout:

What I have found valuable is to go to the Point of View section on Beesource, and read all the articles. It is amazing the wealth of valuable information there.


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## Randy Bagrowski

*Re: Checkboarding*

In defense of Checkerboarding: I've been keeping bees for about 12 years now. Prior to checkerboarding I would always have swarms. I keep anywhere between 3 and 12 colonies. I used to reverse boxes in the early spring and when I saw queen cells would use a Snellgrove board(double screen) to try to prevent the swarms. It usually worked but it was really labor and time intensive. Since I've been checkerboarding (about 3 years now) I have not had one swarm!!
I know this for a fact for the following reasons.. I raise my own queens and I mark them with a different color for each hive so if a colony swarms I can tell by the color which colony it came from. I have quite a few friends that do not mark their queens and swear their bees never swarm.. trust me.. they do.. and checkerboarding eliminates it.

Randy B


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## jdpro5010

*Re: Checkboarding*

Randy, are you using the 1 deep and 2 shallows for brood?


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## heaflaw

*Re: Checkboarding*

Would variations of the above scheme work? Like using one deep above the brood nest instead of two shallows? And what if there are not enough full frames at that time? Should I pull out frames of honey from the brood deep to move up. Should I leave more empties in the center or at the sides of the upper super(s)? Does any of that matter?


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## Steve717

*Re: Checkboarding*

No one has talked about any variation that works. Walt has had enough problems promoting the method that does work.

Checkerboarding works because the bees think they don’t have much honey left and the honey cap is no longer in place. The foragers get busy collecting all the early nectar they can find and the queen can lay many more eggs because of the empty comb. No honey cap allows the workers to move up into the upper supers and store nectar. The colony can’t swarm because it appears they don’t have enough stored honey for the colony to survive.


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## Troutsqueezer

*Re: Checkboarding*



Barry said:


> This thread will come to a close if the name calling and personal jabs don't end. Lighten up.



Now I remember why I don't frequent BeeSource much anymore. 

tecumseh with a little "t", I'm surprised you're still hanging in there after all this time.

Barry, maybe a sticky is needed to remind some folks to lose the attitude and convey to them that this is a friendly place above all else, if you don't have one somewhere already.

-trout


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## Merlyn Votaw

*Re: Checkboarding*

I am a new BEEK and I have heard the word Checkerboard. Would some please explain what it is?


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## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

AQ WI:
As posted above, don't have a good answer that I'm prepared to defend, But can tell you what I plan to try next. (We can fail in parallel) Very early, in late winter, Place a box of overhead capped honey below the brood nest. (reverse) Add foundation above the brood nest and add F as necessary to maintain room to grow into.
Rationale: 1)Honey below the brood nest shouldn't separate them from feed; 2)If the cluster enfolds the overhead F It may induce the early wax making that is unique to second year colonies.
With only two 09 swarms to work with, the results may not be representa tive, but may provide a clue as to whether or not the approach is worth any further effort. 

In WI where your cluster would normally be at the top of the hive in late winter, hive body reversal would be your best bet. The raised empty will give them room to grow into. Periodic reversal (2 weeks) will offset swarming through the swarm prep period. (see below)


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## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

Mike:
I recognize that it's not necessary to point out where we agree to you, but it might be just as important to the beginners tracking this thread as where we differ. Bear with me. 

You are correct in that reversal does not slow them down in development. In fact, if flying weather and field forage are supportive at the time, reversal creates a step function in brood nest expansion. When growing into overhead honey that honey must be consumed to make space for expansion, but empty comb overhead allows them to expand in one step to the level of brood volume that can be protected by the cluster volume. Brood seems to just Jump into the raised empty.

You asked about "Reproductive swarm cut off." It is described in the copy of the "manuscript" that you have (maybe had) It is also described in an 03 article available in POV (Full Season) Am not a writer by training or inclination and perhaps those descriptions are not clear. To summerize:

Repro c/o occurs locally in the early apple blossom period and is the point in colony development when reproduction is abandoned in favor of existing colony survival. Colonies with swarm cells in work continue to proceed to issue of the swarm, but those that didn't start swarm cells yet turn their attention to preparing to store survival winter honey. Those slower colonies that missed the deadline can still swarm later if they get overcrowded, but those swarms are not reproductive swarms. Overcrowded swarms, induced by the inept beek, are caused by the colony motivation to protect accumulated stores.

Note that hive body reversal causes overcrowding. The step function in brood volume is is not normal. Periodical reversal compounds the problem. 
The colony deprived of the natural brood nest reduction of swarm preps has more population than that proportional to stores and cavity size. The late swarm is intended to reduce population.

Walt


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## Michael Palmer

*Re: Checkboarding*

Not sure what "step function" means. By "Jumping" into ther raised empty the bees have upward expansion, the pressure is removed, and swarming mostly disappears...there are always some that will persist...in any method. That overhead honey that must be consumed, won't be in my area, The Dandelion/Fruit Bloom is too strong. It will sit in the combs and become even harder...which renders it un-extractable. Placing it on the bottom board gets rid of it...the bees dig it out and use the liquid portion and discard the crystals out the door.

You claim that there are two types of swarms...reproductive swarms and overcrowded swarms. And that overcrowded swarms are really only trying to "protect accumulated stores." How do you know that? Show me any way that there is a difference between the two. Where is your science that shows any difference. If none, then this is all a nice story with some facts being true but then your interpretation being a story.

Hive body reversal creates overcrowding?? Really?? How?? I think this is another of your claims that are intended to bolster your theories without paying attention to what is really going on. If anything, the bees feel less crowded after reversing. It breaks up the backfilling of the broodnest. It opens up empty brood cells for the queen's expansion, and nectar management. With supers space above, there is wide open comb space above the cluster. 

How can you say that the late swarm is intended to reduce population? This is another one of your interpretations to fit your thesis. A fact for which you have no science. Another part of your story. It's these bold claims that lead me to question your thesis.

Here's a good one that sounds great...but is it true.......

"The colony deprived of the natural brood nest reduction of swarm preps has more population than that proportional to stores and cavity size."

Are you saying that by reversing a colony, there is no broodnest reduction that happens in swarm preparations? Gosh, I hope so. Why would you want the colony to reduce the size of the broodnest right at the time that is so crytical for broodnest expansion...if you want to make a good honey crop. You seem to be saying that this non-reduction is a bad thing. Swarming is averted by expanding the broodnest. The bees reduce the broodnest by backfilling, reducing the eventual population of the colony...even if they don't swarm. I believe it's most important to keep the queens in full lay all the time with no reduction in the broodnest. 

I'm trying to build polulation in my colonies at the time you say they should be going through broodnest reduction...and if they don't, it is in some way harmful to the colony? I have to disagree. It's all about population in beekeeping. Population at the right time makes honey bee colonies successful...whether for honey production, queen rearing, or wintering.

It takes huge populations to make a 200 pound crop. Something like these colonies....


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## Beeslave

*Re: Checkboarding*

Good thing that is a pic in the early fall. If that was a June pic it looks like a given they would swarm(in my eyes).


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## StevenG

*Re: Checkboarding*

Personally I'm loving this discussion (when it stays on topic), as I'm learning a lot as people more conversant than I with the bees discuss the nuances... in the discussion it is helping clarify some things... I'm looking forward to trying some of these theories next spring. Keep it up, guys, you're educating a lot of us. opcorn:


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## Randy Bagrowski

*Re: Checkboarding*



jdpro5010 said:


> Randy, are you using the 1 deep and 2 shallows for brood?


I use 3 medium supers for my brood boxes


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## hoodswoods

*Re: Checkboarding*

StevenG,
This time of year is not the time to spout forth with any newbee opinions, especially anything regarding, but absolutely not limited to, some of the following:
1. reversing
2. checkerboarding
3. regression
4. swarm prevention
5. medication
6. any type of hive manipulation (ie above)
7. also any type of subject that has more than 1 opinion

As a new keep like yourself (?), the information one can glean from our 'innocent questions', helps us gain the knowledge necessary to turn into the winter-crotchety/opinionated experienced beeks from whom we learn.

When the 'old beeks' are busy during the spring, summer & fall, you & I are just ignorant, during the winter, we become stupid.

Keep asking questions and then sit back, read, and eat your popcornopcorn:


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## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

Barry: 
Is there a way to change the name of this thread in progress? Would hate to spend a lot of time on this thread and have it not kick out on a search on checkerboarding. 
Thanks,
Walt


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## hoodswoods

*Re: Checkboarding*

Steve717,
Like all of us, eventually, I am faced with a decision about my hive(s). I just want to thank you for graphically illustrating the checkerboard process in terms that I can understand "pictures speak a thousand words". I know that it has been posted somewhere before, but the here-and-now is what matters.

I have read WW's articles forward & backwards, held them in a mirror, and never could figure it out (yes t, I'm stupid at this time of year), despite an 'obviously' poor degree from some radical California University and 61 years of ignorance.

This is not a knock on anyone's theory, opinion or presentation - I'll make my own ignorant decision and either suffer the consequences or reap my success.

Thanks to all of you who participate.


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## valleyman

*Re: Checkboarding*

Ok guys I'm beginning to understand the concept and method for checkerboarding. Now, if you wanted to expand the number of existing colonies, as I do, wouldn't splitting your hives in the spring serve the same purpose, if you had some comb, say 4 frames to a deep, to put them on? Wouldn't that prevent swarming? How much build up can you get in the hive without them swarming or you splitting them before winter? If I have been informed right they will reduce their cluster size before winter so therefore all this buildup seems counterproductive except for the nectar flow. I'm not saying anybody is right or anybody is wrong but everyone has to figure out what works for his own operation. I think it is Micheal Bush that says anything works if you let it. I take that to mean that the bees can over come all of our procedures if we don't kill them outright. In my humble opinion they are smarter than any of us.


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## ikeepbees

*Re: Checkboarding*

I would encourage all who have not actually TRIED Walt's methods to give Nectar Management a try. I have been working with Walt for much of the last decade and have not only enjoyed his friendship but have learned much as I applied his techniques in my beeyards. Even if you were to find that you don't like checkerboarding or that it doesn't fit your operation, you will learn something just by trying something new. And learning is fun.

I have had fabulous success using Nectar Management. Massive populations of bees are fostered and it's pretty easy to boot. The difference in my honey production before and after is remarkable. I am not sure why there are so many people that want to spend time attacking Walt's ideas, but I am very pleased that I chose to try it for myself rather than listen to them.


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## KQ6AR

*tags*

Hi,
I added a tag at the bottom of the page *checkerboarding* You can always edit tags to make something more searchable.



wcubed said:


> Barry:
> Is there a way to change the name of this thread in progress? Would hate to spend a lot of time on this thread and have it not kick out on a search on checkerboarding.
> Thanks,
> Walt


----------



## dickm

*Re: Checkboarding*

I avoided reading or commenting on this thread because of the title. I feel some duty to say something because new beekeepers get much of their information here and the way it gets structured lots of new and questionable advice gets more attention than it deserves. I don't have swarming problems and I use simple reversing. Go with anything Mike Palmer posted.

dickm


----------



## NeilV

*Re: Checkboarding*

I wonder if swarming issues are in part related to latitude. I can assure you that swarming is a major issue for beekeepers around here. Simple reversing helps but does not always do the trick here on strong hives. 

I also think that people who for some reason have a gut reaction against checkerboarding probably have not done it. Also, people up north may not be able to try it at all. I'm not sure if the weather will cooperate.

Finally, I would add that, in addition to the problem of having drawn comb, another practical problem is that beginners who want to try CBing may not really understand what they are supposed to be doing or why. From speaking with other people, alot of folks don't understand one or more of the following: 

(1) how the "checkerboarding" part is done (for example, even on this thread, people seem to think that the brood area is involved even though its just the honey over the brood area that should be checkerboarded); 

(2) when in the year its done (lots of people think you do it after the hive has committed to swarming, like it's an alternative to cutting out queen cells, when its really done well before the nectar flow);

(3) that you don't do the actual hive manipulation more than once;

(4) the significance of adding drawn comb to the top of the hive over the "checkerboarded" part early and keeping that available. 

Subject to those caveats, on the hives that I've tried it on, the bees pretty much acted exactly like Walt Wright says that they were supposed to act. And a hive that's been checkerboarding properly and timely does not have the same growth pattern and behavior as a non-CB hive. Basically, they just act differently in the way the hive popluation grows and how they begin storing nectar. To me, it has been very obvious.

One thing that I think people don't realize is that, when the beekeeper does what Walt recommends and the bees do what he says that they are going to do, its not just a matter of preventing swarms. A major advantage is that bees get a really big brood area going right before the main nectar flow hits. The other advantage is that the bees start storing nectar in the top of the hive earlier in the year. I had a hive at my house, for example, that had a full medium of capped honey stored before my local friends had any capped honey. (I would add that this advantage could turn into a disadvantage if the weather does not cooperate and you have a lot of hungry bees and not enough forage).

I had some hives that were checkerboarded and some that were not last year, and the checkerboarded hives had more bees in them. I did have one checkerboarded hive that I screwed up through my own negligence (work and rain kept me from doing what needed to be done). The hive was growing like crazy with more bees than I've seen in any hive (and I've helped some experience beeks and seen quite a few more hives than my own). At that point I ran out of drawn comb and simply failed to keep up with the hive growth by even failing to add empty foundation. It swarmed but I think that was due to lack of space. It actually swarmed pretty late in the year. 

The other CB hives made more honey than the non CB hives, and none of those swarmed. One of the CM hives got turned over twice by some mean kid, and that took a big toll on it (It killed a bunch of brood. On one ocassion, the property owner got ahold of me at 10:00 pm to say that somebody turned over a hive. I ended up out there in the dark using my vehicle lights to see to put my hive back together. Then the battery in my vehicle went dead and I had to get the property owner to jump start my car. Good times!) Anyway, even that hive managed to make a decent honey crop despite that. 

Based on what was reported at our bee club meeting last monday, I think that my per hive yield was probably as high as anybody's (in what generally was a bad year and in an area that is not great for honey to begin with). Nearly all of that honey came from hives that I checkerboarded.

Again, I don't claim to know it all (or even to know much) at this point in my beekeeping life. But I can say is that my experience with Walt's recommendations has been positive. Also, once you really understand what you are supposed to do, it's really easy. It does not take much more time than reversing hive bodies, and you don't have to lift a deep. 

I'd be interested in hearing from any folks who are from the middle/southern latitudes who really followed Walt's advice and found that his methods did not work.


Neil


----------



## NeilV

*Re: Checkboarding*

"I use 3 medium supers for my brood boxes"

I have one hive that is set up with all mediums. On it, I overwintered in four mediums. There was not a whole lot in the top box going into winter. I then checkerboarded the top 2 mediums. It worked fine. Actually it was my best hive as far as honey production goes last year. I've got it set up to do it again this year. This year I've got more drawn comb to work with so I'm hopeful.


----------



## StevenG

*Re: Checkboarding*

Hoodswoods,

My my my someone got up on the wrong side of the bed today! May I inquire just what I said that offended you? If you've read this thread, you saw the moderator's threat to shut it down because some people posting were not civil. You also saw my posting asking the moderator not to, because of its value to us, and simply suggesting he delete any offending posts.

If you read my most recent posting, you noticed that it was encouraging the discussion, because it is important for us to learn from divergent opinions, and try to glean nuggets from the wisdom being shared.

Furthermore, if keeping bees for 15 years from 1968 to 1983, and now the past four years means I'm a newbie, so be it. Some of the old timers here remember the articles by Charles Koover in "Gleaning in Bee Culture" which stimulated us to think. Personally I think Walt Wright fits into Koover's mold - a person who thinks outside the box. And a person who is of great value to the beekeeping fraternity. Those who have disagreed with him in a respectful manner I also respect, and value their opinions. My task is to apply what I am learning, so my colonies thrive. I would also recommend all of Mike Bush's articles on his web site.

I have read and printed out for future reference all of Walt's articles. I also find interesting reading those who disagree with him. I cherish that kind of dialogue, because a) not every researcher, either government, university, or backlotter, has the ultimate answer, and b) Generally through that kind of honest dialogue, a consensus can emerge. And if not a consensus, then those of us who are trying to become better beekeepers can grow.

I researched for a year, subscribing to Bee Culture and ABJ before buying my first two packages 4 years ago to re-enter beekeeping. I went into last winter with three colonies, lost one apparently due to CCD. Based on readings here I did a post-mortem on them. I now have 14 hives, with the intent to grow to 30-36 next season, peaking at 50-60 in 2011. 

Now, we all have our opinions, and certainly we can agree to disagree, but being insulting about it never accomplishes anything. Having said that, I shall return to the container of caramel popcorn I bought from a local Boy Scout. opcorn:
Regards,
Steven


----------



## Steve717

*Re: Checkboarding*



valleyman said:


> Ok guys I'm beginning to understand the concept and method for checkerboarding. Now, if you wanted to expand the number of existing colonies, as I do, wouldn't splitting your hives in the spring serve the same purpose, if you had some comb, say 4 frames to a deep, to put them on? Wouldn't that prevent swarming? How much build up can you get in the hive without them swarming or you splitting them before winter? If I have been informed right they will reduce their cluster size before winter so therefore all this buildup seems counterproductive except for the nectar flow. I'm not saying anybody is right or anybody is wrong but everyone has to figure out what works for his own operation. I think it is Micheal Bush that says anything works if you let it. I take that to mean that the bees can over come all of our procedures if we don't kill them outright. In my humble opinion they are smarter than any of us.


You want the buildup prior to the nectar flow. That's how you get a large honey harvest. 

The earlier you get a hive population built up the sooner you can split that hive with minimal loss of honey production from that hive.

Splits info http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm

Swarm control (read about opening the broodnest) http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm


----------



## Steve717

*Re: Checkboarding*

To expand on checkerboarding more....

During the nectar flow (May in the mid south) when the shallow just above the deep is full of capped brood. Move that shallow to the bottom of the stack. Those bees will emerge from their cells and pollen will be stored there and used during the fall brood rearing in preparation for winter.

So.....
From late winter to spring nectar flow the hive will be configured from the bottom up; deep, shallow, shallow, and any honey supers.

From nectar flow to late winter the hive will be configured from bottom up; shallow, deep, shallow and any honey supers.


----------



## hoodswoods

*Re: Checkboarding*



StevenG said:


> Personally I'm loving this discussion (when it stays on topic), as I'm learning a lot as people more conversant than I with the bees discuss the nuances... in the discussion it is helping clarify some things... I'm looking forward to trying some of these theories next spring. Keep it up, guys, you're educating a lot of us. opcorn:



With 180 posts and a join date the same as me, I errored in assuming you were new to bee keeping, as I was. You offended me in no way, shape or form, and other than having some dental work done today, feeling rather chipper.

I was merely trying to make light of the seriousness of the discussion and how, it seemed, that this time of year brought out the onryness of people (obviously - you two). I was trying to jokingly advise all us (not you, since you corrected my mistake) newbees to avoid controversial opinions, and just lead with controversial questions, then we can sit back and watch the fireworks and actually get some information - while eating our popcorn.

If you interpreted any part of my post to you to be insulting, then again, I apologize - maybe you can ID that part so I can avoid doing it again. I wasn't lecturing you or chastising, I was joking with you - obviously poorly. Go back and read my post as a friend sitting next to you in the theater and watching this movie unfold - does the meaning change?


----------



## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

Mike:
I plead Guilty As Charged. Would prefer the concepts be considered as conclusions based on observations, but will accept "story" with the caveat that it's not fiction. Spent a lot of years reading comb content to reach those conclusions and have confidence that they are accurate. 

There is no documented, scientific evidence. Wasn't even keeping cursory records when the preliminary conclusions were derived. Typically, some hard-headed colony, hell bent on doing it their way, would get my attention. Susequently, if other colonies demonstrated the same tendency under similar circumstances, it was considered a survival trait of the species.

That brings us to the bulk of your post above. I think in terms of the natural survival traits of our bees. As you point out, the natural survival traits are not in the best interest of the beekeeper from the standpoint of honey production. Population of the colony is the key to honey production, but in the world of colony survival, overpopulation is not good. The functional colony is remarkably good at maintaining population in consonance with stores/cavity size. That is - without disruption by the beek by adding supers, etc. Just for drill, try reading the manuscript again from the standpoint of the advantages to the wild colony in their natural environment. Their survival format is a well organized series of steps of changing priorities built around forest forage. The strategy serves them well. It's quite complex, but they are skilled in making it work. I see no reason to argue with success.

Will not address all your reservations, but how reversal crowds the colony could use a little explanation. It certainly is not immediate - same number of bees in the same volume. It takes time to build overpopulation. Consider the healthy colony with ample cluster size and good field forage support, housed in a double deep, capped honey in the upper. Brood volume increases into the upper with honey consumption. A brood cycle or two is reared in the upper to provide bees for the repro swarm and then the upper is backfilled in swarm preps. Permitted to do it their way that brood volume (1 and a half deeps) is not achieved for the remainder of the season. All brood is limited to the lower deep. Upper becomes capped honey during the main flow. Now throw in reversal. Reversal extends the period at the increased brood volume that would not be there if the colony followed their normal timeline. A half deep can produce a lot of bees. A stumble on the part of the beek in maintaining space causes crowding.

Sorry about the "step function" thing - electronics jargon for a straight up circuit waveform. The brood volume increase is not instantaneous. Takes time for the Q to lay up the space. So, it's not really a step function, but it is fairly quick in terms of periodic inspections. 

Nice pic. I don't ever see that level of crowding here - maybe as bad as the center unit but nowhere near as bad as the outside hives. And only then in very hot weather. You're lucky you can get away with that. My excess bees would be settled on a tree limb.

Can say without concern for rebuttal that there is not much competition in this business of trying to describe what's happening in a beehive. Yes, it's subjective, but who else gives a good grunt? How beekeepers kept bees for centuries without the foggiest notion of how the bees run their shop is a mystery. And what was learned led to a reliable swarm prevention scheme. It can't be all bad.

And I thank you supporters who stepped forward with a vote of confidence.

Walt


----------



## sjbees

*Re: Checkboarding*

It is clear that some [beginners] in this thread want to use checkerboarding to prevent swarms, and are lamenting their lack of drawn comb. When an essential ingredient is missing, look for another alternative....

Reach for flame proof vest.

Beeks who have no drawn comb 'should' not be having a swarm problem. The significant factor in the urge to swarm comes from the queen being crowded and if there is lots of foundation available the colony 'should' be expanding the brood nest rather than swarm preparations.

Note that 'should' is the operative word here, bees respond to many factors and swarming can easily be confused with absconding to find a more favorable situation.

If you are a new beek who is having severe problems with swarming, verify that the basics are working in your favor i.e. low varroa load, no chalkbrood, little or no nosema.

Weather variations can have a devastating effect on bees if they may never get an opportunity to build up. If a flow starts and then there is a cold snap, feed syrup to keep the brood nest expanding.

Remove flame proof vest.

Being a beginner is hard, there are way too many factors to weigh and all sorts of advice flow from experienced beeks. Use a lot of salt on what your hear, beekeeping is very local so if you have a club available is better to rely on the members than the internet. The obvious example is that if you live in an area of severe winters then be wary of the value of any advice coming from those who live in a fairer clime.


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## valleyman

In case some thinks that I am trying to be a know it all, I am thouroghly enjoying and learning from this discussion. My main flaw is that I will analyze any info until I come up with the sensible answer. Sometimes in doing this you punch holes in the info you have. This is from being a maintanance man for 42 years. So I thank all of you for the info that you have put here, I have learned a lot and hope to learn more!!! One thing I need to know is with my configuration of one deep hive body and one medium super is there any way to make this work? I understand that it would be better with shallows, but I only own 3 and didn't want to buy anymore because I think the mediums are more work friendly for honey collection.


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## StevenG

Thanks SJBees for a bit of clarification.

But it isn't only the newbies who are concerned with "doing it right" without drawn comb. Some of us old-timers who are seeking to expand, and have a dearth of drawn comb, coupled with trying to go "foundationless" to minimize chemical build up in our brood combs are having difficulties discovering how best to make this system work. 

Toss into the mix those of us operating with two deep brood boxes, instead of one deep and two shallow, or three mediums, or lolol on it goes!

So, this question is for anyone who knows or has tried it, before I try in in a month or two: Is there an easy answer :lookout: before I go digging thru Walt's writings, on how one checkerboards when the brood nest in in the bottom of the top deep, with the honey dome in the top of the top deep? Seems like one wouldn't want to break the cluster to checkerboard, but? How does one break the honey dome in that case? And let's make it real interesting, and toss into the mix that I'm expanding hives, so have no spare drawn comb, but lots of frames to go foundationless, or foundation if I need to. 

Now, how's that for a puzzle? :lpf:
Regards,
Steven


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## Barney

Like StevenG I'm not new at beekeeping. I've done it a long time, but newer times mean newer ways and that's what I'm trying to achive. I have read advice on here for a couple years and last spring I had in place, so i thought, all the ingreidaents to at least mimimize swarming. All the preparations I did didn't work. I had my first swarm on March 5th and from there on it didn't seem to matter what I did; I couldn't stop it. I didn't try spliting as I still held out hope I might get a little honey. Checkerboarding was something new to me so I'm willing to try that or anything else that may help. Still don't know what direction to take but I've read a lot of advice here in this thread and I guess I've got the rest of the winter to try to sort it all out and choose a direction.
Thanks to all who posted.
Barney


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## Delta Bay

> Nice pic. I don't ever see that level of crowding here - maybe as bad as the center unit but nowhere near as bad as the outside hives. And only then in very hot weather. You're lucky you can get away with that. My excess bees would be settled on a tree limb.


This is an interesting comment. I'm assuming the pics are after harvest and the comment refers to CB hives after also.
Do you think these population differences have an effect on stored honey before winter clustering comparing the two systems? In what way if any?
Thanks


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## Michael Palmer

I can only speak on beekeeping in my area of northern NY/VT. The photo was obviously in August...the day after I harvested the main crop. Took 150 pound avg. Had to add two supers for the fall flow.

My intention in posting the photo was to show what kind of population it takes in my area to gather a big crop. It was stated that CB'd colonies have some sort of "contraction of the broodnest prior to repro c/o date." And that was in some way necessary for the bees?

I don't understand, either. But I do know that I don't want my broodnests to contract in the buildup season. My season is short enough.

I don't know the populations of WW's colonies. You've seen mine. I figure the larger the population at the right time the better. Leads to bit crops like last year at the Chilton yard...4600 lbs from 21 colonies.


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: Checkboarding*



wcubed said:


> Mike:
> I plead Guilty As Charged. Would prefer the concepts be considered as conclusions based on observations, but will accept "story" with the caveat that it's not fiction. Spent a lot of years reading comb content to reach those conclusions and have confidence that they are accurate.


I've spent a lot of years reading combs, too Walt. And swarms. And I still figure that facts without proof are stories...sorry. With all your comb reading over all those years, how can you say that a repro swarm is any different that an overcrowded swarm?

You talk about bees in the wild. Follow what the bees do. I agree. But bees in the wild have limited cavity space. They can only expand so far before they hit the limit and swarm preparations start. You keep bees in the configuration...shallow, deep, shallow. To me, that imitates bees in the wild...too small a cavity. So, try keeping bees with a prolific queen in a too small cavity...wild or kept. Yes, they act exactly the same.

I don't want to keep wild bees, or keep bees by wild bee methods. I would not...no...could not ever keep my bees in shallow, deep, shallow configuration. My minimum broodcount for breeder queen selection at reversal at the beginning of Dandelion is 9 frames. I have many colonies with 10-12-14 combs of brood at reversal. There isn't room in a s-d-s to hold all that brood in the spring, let alone all summer. I would surely argue with what you call success if all it meant was that a colony survived the year. Survived because they had all the traits to do things right. The strategy surely servs them well...if survival is the only goal. And, I guess the wild colony in a tree somewhere does have just that goal. 

How reversal crowds a colony...interesting theory. You're talking your wild hive again with a limited cavity. Your colony expands to the honey dome...or as I say cavity limit...and starts swarm preps. Ok I agree. At that point...just before backfilling, you say the colony has reached it's peak and never reaches that level of brood rearing again. That's if you permit them to do it their way. Why would you? The level of brood rearing can be maintained over the entire season with prolific queens that have ample laying space that isn't in competition with incoming nectar. To me, reversing and proper supering are intergral parts of building population.

You say that reversing will extend the period of increased brood volume that wouldn't be there if the bees followed their normal timeline. Well duh! And I want them to extend that period. I want them to build huge honey producing colonies. And you say that the beek might stumble, so he/she better not try. Why? We're all incompetant? Beekeepers kept bees for centuries and never had the foggiest? After all those centuries along comes one beekeeper to set us all aright. The experienced beekeepers of all time and all the literature that has come before us had it wrong. What's wrong with this picture?

I would still like some questions answered...with facts.

1. How can you say that reproductive swarms are different than overcrowded swarms. This seems to be the basis of your thesis. What science can you show to prove your point. A rose by any other name is still a rose. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a repro swarm?? 

2. When checkerboarding that super above the active broodnest...why not just place an empty super of combs beneath it..and above the active broodnest. Would acomplish the same thing without handling frames.

I don't mean to be so picky. Some might say I'm being a PITA. I'm an experienced beekeeper with many years behind me. One of them that doesn't know the truth, 'cause only one beekeeper knows the real answers. I'm insulted by your attitude.

I'm not saying that CB won't help in nectar management. Sure it will...especially when the broodnest isn't large enough to build a big populous colony. The bees have to go somewhere with the nectar. I am being told that reversing the broodnest will somehow negatively effect the colony. Make them crowded?? Really?? Not if you super properly.

I didn't write the nectar management theories fostered by WW. I'm only reading the thesis and trying to understand. I'm being told that my method is wrong...because I'm not allowing the bees to follow their normal timeline? Why would I if it means swarming, restricted broodnests, and smaller honey crops?

I'm only asking for answers to my questions about the "never before known" management and theories of the author. I very much doubt that they will be answered.

Respectfully submitted
Michael Palmer
French Hill Apiaries
St. Albans, Vermont


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## Roland

W to the power of three, thank you for calmly answering M. Palmers concerns. I believe you have found a method, that for what ever reasons, works for you. I, like M. Palmer, wonder about it's applicability for northern locations. We winter, and summer, in one deep, and do not have your "honey dome" problem. We do not do "reversals". We manipulate combs every 12-14 days in the spring/early summer, and clip queens, so that it is known if the hive attempted to swarm. We do not believe we have a significant number of swarms, and do not believe we have a significant number of queens "slack off' to prepare to swarm. Like M. Palmer, we have the goal of maximum bees, when the white sweet clover blooms. And yes, the really popullose(sp?) hives are needed, expescially(sp?) this year. 

What are we doing wrong? Heavy manipulation is supposed to be bad, but yet our populations, swarm control, and honey production seem as good/or better/ as those around us. We have records from the 1940's, using the same system, so we have been doing it wrong for a long time.

Roland and Christian
Linden Apiary


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## Roland

I was wrong, Christian showed me records back to 1931. 

With all respect
Roland and Christian
Linden Apiary, Est 1852


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## Delta Bay

Sorry Michael. I left out one important word in my question.



> Do you think these population differences have an effect on stored honey *used* before winter clustering comparing the two systems?


I can see why you would want to have your population growing late in the year to catch the fall crop. The reason I ask the question is more to do with my area.
The main nectar flow which starts about the beginning of June here is done about the middle of July. Anything after that just keeps them out of their winter stores. We harvest mid August. If I had hives like in your pics here in August I would worry they would clean their winter stores out before we got into winter.
Here I think a drop in brooding starting part way through the main flow would be ideal. 
Lots of the guy's reverse boxes around here. I'm not sure if it's a manipulation that works as well here as in your area. Maybe just has to be tailored for the location. I don't know. Our harvests range from 40lb to 80lbs so not a great honey area. 

Thanks again.


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## Allen Dick

Maybe CB works for some, but I see strong objections from some pretty smart commercial beekeepers.


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## Bee Draggle

*Re: Checkboarding*

Steve717,

[QUOTE=You cannot use foundation for checkerboarding; the bees need the empty comb to allow the queen to lay eggs and the workers to store nectar. 

Your post has cleared up a lot of questions in a very understandable format. Sometimes it's hard to viualize these things. I know that shallows with drawn comb is the what you use to CB, but what if you don't have any shallow with drawn comb? It seems one has to start somewhere? I've thought abot cutting down deep frames into shallow frames but that's a task I'm not anxious to do. What would you recommnd?


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## wcubed

allend:
Yes, I get a whopping 150 US for a published article. At least the IRS was satisfied that it was not income. It costs me more to submit than I get.

If you have a "clue", why not disperse that information? Be aware that dispersing information is also costly.

Walt


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## wcubed

To all:
It was my intention to get into regionality of beekeeping before this thread closed. But with northern support for MP's side of the discussion already posted, regionality is pushed forward on the agenda.
Walt


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## wcubed

Mike:
Guess my writing was inadequate to make the distinction between discribing natural colony operations and what happens in the CB mode. In descriptions of the swarm process, whether hollow tree or hive, the descriptions were in terms of what the beekeeper might see in his hive. 

What may not have been clear enough is that CB disrupts that sequence in many ways. Of primary importance is that the colony does not start brood nest reduction by backfilling and continues to increase brood volume until repro cut off. This yields upscale of the equivalent of two deeps of brood. There is no arguement more bees make more honey. Sound a little fishey to you? It works by interfereing in those natural processes that minimize honey production.

For the record, have not, and will not, say that you are doing anything "wrong." You have arrived at an approach that accomplishes the the same things as CB in areas where the overhead honey is a deterrant to swarm prevention. We're not that far apart. Regionalism is a thing we must deal with where it applies. May come back to this , later.

Will not respond to entries that are considered either ridicule or character assassination. We can do without both in a discussion of opinions.
Will respond to questions of difference of opinion. Proceeding to your 2 questions that at qualify:
1. No science. When you tune in to the four internal changes that occur at repro c/o, it is indicated, if not obvious, that the colony has had a major change of direction.
2. Sounds good. But is not reliable swarm prevention. They might fill that super with nectar, but the honey reserve is still continuous across the top. They seem to see the top of their capped honey reserve as the top of their cavity and are delayed somewhat, but will swarm if thay have calendar time before repro c/o.

Walt


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## wcubed

allend:
Sorry! Responded to a post that is no longer there. It either got bleeped out or I had too many Miller Lights.
Walt


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

I've been checkerboarding, for more than a decade, in a northern climate with a harsh environment. You can read about it here:

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/checker-boarding/

And I've done a little test by running the same hives, for a season, the conventional way. The details are in the "Running Them The Old Way" section at the bottom of the link above.

This little test more than confirmed the efficacy and value of checkerboarding. It's just an easy(as in labor), simple, elegantly effective way to run a conventional hive for maximum honey production with minimal disturbance.

It allows me to manage my bees early enough to develop huge populations without disturbing or damaging the broodnest. And that's very important in a cold windy climate like mine, where any manipulation, before the end of May, puts brood at risk.

Regards-Dennis


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## wcubed

Thanks, Dennis. I needed that. As I remember, you introduced CB to this forum (05?) I'll be forever grateful.
Walt


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## sjbees

StevenG said:


> Toss into the mix those of us operating with two deep brood boxes, instead of one deep and two shallow, or three mediums, or lolol on it goes!
> 
> So, this question is for anyone who knows or has tried it, before I try in in a month or two: Is there an easy answer :lookout: before I go digging thru Walt's writings, on how one checkerboards when the brood nest in in the bottom of the top deep, with the honey dome in the top of the top deep? Seems like one wouldn't want to break the cluster to checkerboard, but? How does one break the honey dome in that case?


In the Sunday paper recently, the English chef Jaimie wrote that a recipe is like a map, if you don't follow the map you won't get where you want to go, and if you do not have all the ingredients, the recipe won't work.

I'm as guilty as anyone else when it comes to 'almost' following directions, and when it comes to checkerboarding, messing with the recipe is fraught with disaster.

> how [does] one checkerboards when the brood nest in in the bottom of the top deep, with the honey dome in the top of the top deep?

You can't.

> Seems like one wouldn't want to break the cluster to checkerboard, but?

Not for checkerboarding, but you can encourage the bees to draw comb by breaking into the broodnest and adding another deep on top e.g. assuming you have 6 frames of brood, split them between two deeps with two new frames introduced between them. A cluster which can cover 6 horizontal brood frames 'should' be able to cover 8 frames vertically.

Start with: E0 H1 B2 B3 B4 B5 B6 B7 H8 E9

I'd keep two pairs of brood frames together and locate the two least-populated frames above each other. Both the top and bottom have one E(mpty) frame inserted between brood comb and will be drawn quickly for the queen to lay. If there is a cold snap, you run the risk of losing the outer brood frames.

End up with ontop: En En B7 Eb B5 B6 En En En En
End up with below: E0 H1 B2 B3 Ea B4 En H8 En E9

This is not checkerboarding, but it is a way to encourage the drawing of more brood combs, and the availability of cells cuts the risk of swarming. These make for an easy split when queens become available.

You can go foundationless for sure on the Ea/Eb frames you introduce between frames and your choice on the others. There are other ways, this just happens to be one of the techniques I've used to expand.

Checkerboarding is appealing because it reduces/prevents swarms, boosts production etc. but it takes preparation and close adherence to the principles. To some beeks it reads/sounds like voodoo but everyone I know who followed the directions/recipe closely were pleased with the results.


----------



## BEES4U

In the Sunday paper recently, the English chef Jaimie wrote that a recipe is like a map, if you don't follow the map you won't get where you want to go, and if you do not have all the ingredients, the recipe won't work.

Reading comprehension is one of the biggest challenges for some people

The placing of foundation in a super is simple compared to the Demaree procedure:

*Another technique to stop swarming is the
Demaree methods, *separating the queen from the
brood. This lets rapid colony growth continue but
takes a lot of hard work and time. Examine all frames
of brood in the colony, and destroy all queen cells.
Place the queen in the lower brood chamber and all
frames of uncapped brood (eggs and larvae) in the
upper brood chamber. You can keep capped brood in
the upper or lower brood chamber. Place one or two
hive bodies full of empty combs between the original
two brood chambers. Before adding the middle supers,
place a queen excluder (metal or plastic device with
spaces that permit the passage of workers but restricts
the movement of drones and queens to a specific part
of the hive) on top of the bottom hive body.
The colony is now at least three supers high:
• The first super contains the queen, empty
combs, and some capped brood;
• The middle hive bodies contain empty combs
and perhaps a frame or two of capped brood; and
• The top super contains the young, uncapped
brood frames.
Under the Demaree procedure, the uncapped
brood in the top super attracts most young nurse bees
away from the old brood nest in the bottom super,
which relieves the crowding. Also, the empty comb in
the bottom hive body provides plenty of space for the
queen to continue laying. More space opens up as the
capped brood emerges. In 7 to 10 days, return to
inspect the colony and destroy any new queen cells
that may have developed in the upper hive bodies.
A double screen is a wooden frame holding two layers of wire screen,
usually 8–mesh, about 1/2 inch apart, to separate bees in the hive.

Ernie


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## wcubed

Think I' d go with Dee's pyrimiding up. Assuming the bottom box is essentially empty comb, and the top box contains most of the brood and the honey cap. Disregard if the brood nest is split between boxes.

While the boxes are separated, select an outside frame of brood with the minimum arc of brood. Place that frame of brood in the box of empties where it will be centered over the cluster when the boxes are reversed. Close up the cluster in the active box and place the empty frame at the outside. Reverse boxes on reassembly.

Rationale: By closing up the brood nest one frame, there are ample bees to protect the raised brood. And the real key to swarm prevention is to get cluster bees standing on empty comb. Empty comb underfoot can't be ignored. An unnatural condition in the wild nest, the colony sets out to fill that comb with nectar.

Tennessee Crackpot


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## wcubed

Mike:
Let me take advantage of the break in this Discussion to make a note on one of your concerns. (overhead crystalized honey) Granted, I don't see much of it in my shorter and milder winters, but the bees have that covered in their survival traits.

In the build up from late winter to repro cut off, the bees protect their capped reserve by feeding on incoming nectar. In late winter, they feed on the reserve in the interest of brood nest expansion, but when field nectar is available, they use that to feed the colony and deliberately maintain the capped honey reserve. They use it, if they must, for survival but if field nectar and flying weather support, They don't open it untill repro cut off.

At repro c/o, the reserve has served its purpose through build up and the swarm prep period. Field nectar is now abundant. Its now time to recycle those cells with fresh nectar for the following winter. They deliberately feed on that capped honey of the reserve through the lull in overhead storage prior to the "main flow". You DO have that lull in overhead storage of established colonies, do you not? ( three weeks where there is little gain in the supers) The literature calls it the "dearth before the flow." Plenty of field nectar out there!! At least locally.

You report moving the sugared honey to the bottom to get it cleaned out. Since the bees don't want their honey below, moving it down may help, but I suspect that those frames would be recycled anywhere in the cluster.

Further, you folks who don't want remnants of the reserve in place in the early season are strange to me. Early season weather is often unpredictable and I take no pleasure in feeding bees. The capped honey reserve is as important to me as it is to the bees. Do I need to remind you that a major cause of colony loss is starvation?

Walt


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## wcubed

To all:
Received word a few minutes ago that a brother in law in MD has crashed. Will be preparing to travel - starting now. With nearly 2 feet of snow there, am not in a hurry to start, but will be underway when road conditions are supportive. Will be out of touch as long as it takes. When I get back, will rest the defence and field the offence.

Walt


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## Michael Palmer

This is my last reply. I believe I've asked valid questions. I get dogmatic answers. 

I've maintained an open mind..I think. I've agreed that CB works...because comb space is placed above the active broodnest. I give alternative manipulations to that proposed by the author, only to be told no, no, no. 

Walt, you say you haven't said I'm wrong...and go on to tell me why reversing isn't effective swarm control...because the bees will reach the honey dome and swarm. Will they not do the same with CBd hives...if you don't add and maintain additional supers?

All your answers to me are based on what ifs and maybes. Without facts, the theories in your manuscript are opinions. Without facts, your eloquently written thesis is a story. I can't go on trying to discuss or debate your opinions. Opinions are undebatable.

I do hope the beekeepers reading these posts will take away what is important. Nectar management is critical in swarm control. Perhaps the most important idea for NM is upward expansion and comb space above the cluster for nectar storage. 

Will either management theory eliminate all swarming. No, it won't and if anyoney says it will they're plain wrong.

Thank you for listening...I hope I've added in some positive way to the conversation.
Mike


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## olddrown

Mike
I run a deep and super , how can i make use of the things you are talking about?Can i reverse the super? Or can i CB the super? 
Thanks Jim


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## wcubed

Mike:
Now we're getting somewhere. Havn't told you that reversal isn't effective for your area. And , as I understand it, you get the colony storing overhead before reversal. Can't argue with success. It works for you. Locally, reversal is not as effective. It might be more so if we added your wrinkle. An article in this month's BC has been submitted to Barry to add to the list in POV on my reservations about wintering in the double deep. Don't think it's best in Dixie. It's the regionality thing. And yes, we've already mentioned the importance of maintaining empty comb at the top - once they have expanded through the honey reserve. It seems that the reserve is not a problem for you.

Think I have been fairly straightforward in agreeing that my opinions are conclusions based on observation, with virtually no scientific tests of verification. That permits you to disregard them as you choose. 

Walt


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## wcubed

Mike:
Surely, you jest. Almost all how-to info in beekeeping is somebody's opinion. Yours, mine or others. Picking one we agree on like overhead storage of nectar is a key ingredient of swarm prevention: I have seen no scientific test that would make that opinion irrevocable. And even the opinion is not found in my reference books. I have no way of knowing whether you arrived at that opinion independently or it's a consensus opinion in your area, but I know I derived the opinion independently. Had no 'guidance" in the early years.

The literature has forever recommended early supering. What's missing is how early is "early" Some of that same lit talks about supering at fruit bloom. That is too late for me. 

Would it surprise you to learn that I find your management approach supportive of mine? Same objectives, different means, both effective. Why you see this as a personal affront is puzzling. Did you not see a posting on another thead where I said I respected the opinions of the Micheals Bush and Palmer?

Walt


----------



## Steve717

*Re: Checkboarding*



Bee Draggle said:


> Steve717,
> 
> You cannot use foundation for checkerboarding; the bees need the empty comb to allow the queen to lay eggs and the workers to store nectar.
> 
> Your post has cleared up a lot of questions in a very understandable format. Sometimes it's hard to viualize these things. I know that shallows with drawn comb is the what you use to CB, but what if you don't have any shallow with drawn comb? It seems one has to start somewhere? I've thought abot cutting down deep frames into shallow frames but that's a task I'm not anxious to do. What would you recommnd?


I have the same problem, no shallow supers with drawn comb. I expanded greatly this year and have no drawn honeycomb right now.

If the colony is still in the establishment phase, because they were started this year, you may be able to add shallows of foundation and get them to make wax early. 

If you’re wondering how to super with foundation I found some good advice from George Imirie 

Supering: With Foundation - April 2004

Supering: With Foundation - April 2002

I will be vigilant for swarms and capture any I can because they will make honeycomb quickly. If I find any queen cells I’ll make a split with the existing queen and a couple of frames of brood and honey simulating a swarm to the hive without half of the hive flying away.

Any swarms or splits will go into nucs for future need of brood, queens or expansion.


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## BKgardener

Like StevenG, my winter brood nests consist of two deeps, and either a medium super or feeder box on top for extra stores. Most often the cluster is in the bottom of the top super with a honey dome at the top of the top deep. My question for either Walt or Mike P or preferrably both of you is how would you recommend manipulating the brood nest to break up the honey dome without disturbing the cluster? I have tried reversal but then the honey dome is under the empty deep and the queen won't move up. CBing seems to cause too much disruption to the cluster. Any suggestions?

I think sjbees explained this but I am too ignorant to comprehend. Please help a third year beek.

Pete M.


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## BKgardener

Sorry, cluster in the bottom of the top deep (not super), honey dome at the top of the top deep.


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## Tom G. Laury

The Master Beekeeper is distinguished by the simplicity and economy of his actions. There is nothing you can do regarding arrangement of combs that will increase the honey flow and growth of the colony. The less time you spend on individual colonies the more colonies you can keep. Hobbyists and small beekeepers have too much time on their hands and spend it puttering around and developing complicated theories regarding bee " management ".


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## hoodswoods

BKgardener,

I don't think MP is monitoring or responding to this thread anymore - or can. If you're interested in reversing, this is how MP described it to me in this recent thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235738

You'll have to wade til toward the end of the pages, cause as you can expect, a lot of other opinions/methods.


----------



## BKgardener

Thanks hoodswoods. That thread was helpful. Let me make sure I understand. 

According to MP, if at the end of winter, my cluster is at the bottom of the top deep with a honey dome over it (at the top of the top deep), by reversing the deeps, placing the empty, bottom deep on top of the deep w/ the cluster and dome in it, the bees will move the honey up into the supers and the crystals out, making way for the queen to move up into the empty deep? 

I feel like I did that last year and the bees just filled the empty deep (now on top) with nectar before the queen was able to move into it. Maybe I was too late reversing? I will have to remember to watch for the dandelion bloom this year.


----------



## Delta Bay

BKgardener said:


> Like StevenG, my winter brood nests consist of two deeps, and either a medium super or feeder box on top for extra stores. Most often the cluster is in the bottom of the top super with a honey dome at the top of the top deep. My question for either Walt or Mike P or preferrably both of you is how would you recommend manipulating the brood nest to break up the honey dome without disturbing the cluster? I have tried reversal but then the honey dome is under the empty deep and the queen won't move up. CBing seems to cause too much disruption to the cluster. Any suggestions?
> 
> I think sjbees explained this but I am too ignorant to comprehend. Please help a third year beek.
> 
> Pete M.


If your bees are consistently located at this level in the hive year after year why wouldn't you change the configuration of over wintering hive to 3 mediums for reversing/CB or deep and a medium for CB? Seems to me configuration and manipulation type is dictated by location.
This is really a question for everyone.
Thanks!


----------



## hoodswoods

Delta,

I think of a recent post that got a number of responses somewhat surrounding your question/statement - of course there were a lot of opinions:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236183


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## NeilV

Could somebody please explain the personal animosity towards Walt and checkerboarding. I don't get it. Sure, he's an opiniated beeekeeper. But look around here on Beesource, not exactly a shortage of opinionated beekeepers. What's the deal with the snittiness. Is it that he has articles in the bee mags or what? I'm confused.

As to what Tom Laury said, I would point out that it takes a few minutes, tops, to checkerboard a hive and then you don't have worry much about swarming the rest of the year. So I'd say that it's efficient.


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## cow pollinater

> he's an opiniated beeekeeper.


Yes, very much so. Not necesarilly a bad thing but the arrogance is offputting. I get the feeling that it's more about "do it my way" than it is about beekeeping. 


> I would point out that it takes a few minutes, tops, to checkerboard a hive and then you don't have worry much about swarming the rest of the year. So I'd say that it's efficient.


A few minutes X $8-10 per hour X a few hundred/thousand... There are faster, more effecient ways.


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## Bee Draggle

NeilV said:


> Could somebody please explain the personal animosity towards Walt and checkerboarding.
> 
> I think beekeepers can become totally invested in their own system of beekeeping and become very defensive when a new system threatens their long held ideas and beliefs, especially if new methods are presented forcefully with an aire of authority. Sometimes it's simply a matter of not wanting to change familiar hive configurations especially if it means having to acquire additional woodware. It seems to me if your own systems is working for you and you're satisfied with the results then forget CB or any other system. However, if you're having beekeeping problems with what you are currently doing then why not try a different approach.


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## Merlyn Votaw

I am a newbie at bees. Would someone please explain what CHECKERBOARNING is? Never heard that around here.


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## wcubed

Yep - old Walt is definately opinionated. It's a fine line between confidence in what you'ved learned and arrogance. Try to stay on the confidence side of the line, but it may come across as arrogance. Those who know me best will tell you that I'm more reserved than arrogant.

What was learned didn't come easy - cost me most of my net worth. Thought I was doing a service for the beekeeping community. Really naive. The beekeeping community didn't want to know, and rebuked me for even suggesting that techniques in vogue were questionable.

Yes, I'm proud of what was learned. If that comes across as arrogance, so be it.

Walt


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## Bens-Bees

Is checkerboarding really still considered a new thing?

Walt, you should have written a book and made some money off of it. For some reason, I've found that people are far less hostile toward an idea if they're paying to hear it, even though the idea doesn't change. I'm beginning to suspect that some people just like giving their money away and will get mad at you if you don't take it from them.


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## Mike Gillmore

It often seems that the most outspoken opponents of ideas or methods, on all sides, are those who have no desire or intention to even attempt something new or different than what they have become comfortable with. 

If what you're doing works well and you are satisfied with the results, keep on rollin'. But for those with the curiosity and available time, what's the harm in trying something new? In this business there are most likely several roads which all lead to the same destination. It could be that more than one is "right".


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## NeilV

I can see that checkerboarding is not really suited for migratory, commercial beekeepers who are primarily making their living on pollination contracts. They are doing something different than hobbiest like me and the average sideliner. I would even begin to suggest that I have any idea how to tell commercial pollination beekeepers to do that work. 

However, the average sideliner type, at least around here, relies on selling honey direct to the consumer at retail prices. Honey yield is very important, which means that swarms equal lost profits. 

If we assume that it takes 5 minutes per hive at a wage rate of $10.00 per hour, then the cost per hive is only $1.20. To cover that cost, you would only need to increase yield per hive by about 8 ounces of honey. Based on what I've seen and others have reported, honey yields can go up by lots more than that due to using checkerboarding (both due to avoiding swarms and having bigger broodnests). 

So if checkerboarding works at all, it should be economical for sideliner types who rely on honey production for their income. 

What am I missing?


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## Barry

SgtMaj said:


> I've found that people are far less hostile toward an idea if they're paying to hear it,


For those that start getting hostile, starting the first of the year, they will have to pay me if they want to access the forums. Thanks for the idea!:applause: :lpf:


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## Barry

Mike Gillmore said:


> It could be that more than one is "right".


I think you're far to generous by using the word "could." I think in every situation with beekeeping, there are several ways to obtain the desired end result.


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## Barry

NeilV said:


> What am I missing?


an attitude.


----------



## sylus p

One thing people object to is differentiating between swarm types. That is to say, they feel there is no discernable difference between a reproductive swarm and an overcrowding swarm. 

Along the same lines they object to there being such a thing as a reproductive cut-off and the like. They say that these things are subjective and that walt is basically telling a story that isn't based on science in order to make himself look smart. 

For the record, I sort of doubt walt is all that arrogant. People are funny. They like to be right. Whatever. I know I checkerboarded some hives in early April that I wasn't going to see again until July. Early April is pretty early to be doing much with bees in NY. But there were lots of bees and honey in July. 

Write your book Walt. I'll buy a copy.

:thumbsup:


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## StevenG

Speaking about people wanting to part with their money, and some folks "missing an attitude," I have an attitude I'll sell! In fact, a couple...just let me know what you want! :lpf:

Concerning reproductive and overcrowding swarms, the end result is the same... a new colony out in the wilds, and less honey for me. In fact, frequently no honey for me. The cause MIGHT even be the same, but the time of year or season is different. Then again, how hard would it be to get an overcrowding swarm late in the season, if the queen is cutting back laying? I don't know, splitting such fine hairs is above my pay grade (and being bald I don't have any hairs to spare), so I'll leave that to others.

What I can affirm is that this discussion has been most beneficial to me, as I've learned a lot from Mike Palmer, Walt Wright, and others. It seems to me that any good advance in beekeeping has come as a result of Thesis - Antithesis - Synthesis. For decades we've lived with the Thesis of the double deep and reversing, etc etc etc. Now we have the Antithesis of checkerboarding and other ideas. Could it be that as we hammer this out, and try these methods in our own beekeeping, in a few years a Synthesis will emerge? And in 5 or 10 years beeks will wonder what the controversy was all about? 

To the questioner who asked what Checkerboarding is, go to the Beesource home page, find POV, Walt Wright, and read to your heart's content. In fact, if you want to really learn, read all those articles in POV from various sources. Also check out George Imirie's "Pink Pages" that has been referenced on this forum.
Regards,
Steven


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## BEES4U

they will have to pay me if they want to access forums. 
And, that does not mean a cheap cup of coffee!
Ernie


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## heaflaw

I learned a lot from the back & forth between Mike & Walt and I wish it would continue.


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## Barry Digman

heaflaw said:


> I learned a lot from the back & forth between Mike & Walt and I wish it would continue.



And that's really the brilliance of Beesource isn't it? It has taken these men a lifetime to learn what they have, and I'm grateful that they come here and lay it out for the rest of us. Like heaflaw, I've learned much and understand that when highly talented and sincere people get together there may be a spark or two. The illumination is well worth it.


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## wcubed

Thanks, troops. Caught me just in time. Tuned in this morning to back out myself. Seemed like I was doing more harm than good in my mission of promoting the stuff learned.
Walt


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## wcubed

As long as we are here already, let me comment on the manhours thing. It can be done in the middle of winter. If the cluster is below the box to be CBed, a few warmed bees might come up to investigate the intrusion, but there is little harm in that. And what other activities are accomplished in late winter except checking for losses and cleanup of them? It seems a profitable trade of essentially dead time for busy time in the swarming season. No need to split, or whatever your current swarm prevention activities might be in the busy season. Consider the possibility that CB might actually be a time-saving approach.


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## brac

I too am gaining much from this thread, since MP is out I will have to start a new thread to dicuss reversing and it's specifics.

Walt, you talk about CBing as a swarm prevention. If as you state one is to CB a hive in the winter or very early spring, how long is it then somewhat safe to not search for swarm cells?

Also with CBing, I am right that for each hive you keep you would need 1 deep and 5 mediums? 2 being part of the brood ?


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## valleyman

I want to thank ALL for the comments and ideas on this forum. I have been following it in its entirety. As for the bickering, so what I love my wife and she disagrees with me and makes me mad. Thats life. It has been a very informative forum. Me personally I do not own but 3 shallow supers,and I am not going to run and buy more just for this purpose. I DO believe that I can manipulate my frames and hive bodies in my 2 deep supers and timely add my medium supers to improve my chances of avoiding swarms. I will need this in my new Russian hives!! Now my Queen Bee is about to swarm on me so.
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL.:gh:


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## cow pollinater

wcubed said:


> Thanks, troops. Caught me just in time. Tuned in this morning to back out myself. Seemed like I was doing more harm than good in my mission of promoting the stuff learned.
> Walt


Don't do THAT! My point was intended for Neil who asked why the animosity towards you personally. I just think that if the information is good, it doesn't need to be promoted continuosly... It will promote itself without interferance. I find arrogance in that you are so certain that you are correct in your method that you feel the need to continue to promote it as the best way. Lots of us have methods that work well and we share them and sometimes get credit for them. Some of the methods are quite similar to checkerboarding and have been going on for years.

Walt, My sincere apologies if you took my comments as spiteful. I could have phrased it a little better. I'll stand by arrogant but only for lack of a better word. Hope this clarifies it a little for you


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## ACBEES

After reading through 12 pages of posts, I have deduced CB does not apply to those of us who run two deeps.:doh: 

For me, the reality of all this discussion comes down to deciding on a hive configuration strategy that works best for you. If you are going to run one deep and two mediums, the CB method may very well be a necessity. It seems to me it boils down to square inches of available comb space regardless of the box configuration.


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## wcubed

brac:
Had hoped we would eventially get to specifics.
Havn't looked for swarm cells since the first year of CB testing. Fractured too many supersedure cells. A side effect of CB is automatic SS. Not a good side effect in Africanized areas. SS is treated in POV as seen in CBed hives. Unless you can distinguish the difference, looking for Q cells is not recommended.

Can't say about your location, but that much drawn comb would get the colony into the "main flow" with wax making capibility, locally.


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## wcubed

ACBEES:
Correct.
An article on my reservations about wintering in the double deep config should be added in POV soon, and I don't expect anyone to change config on my say so.
Walt


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## wcubed

C P:
No offence taken. Relax, and thanks for participating.
Walt


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## Barry

wcubed said:


> An article on my reservations about wintering in the double deep config


http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/objections-to-the-double-deep/


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## wcubed

Barry:
Thanks for adding it so quickly and the link.

Others:
Have no experience with all-mediums config. and am not qualified to comment on it, but will add a note where weight is concerned. A medium, plugged out with capped honey, can weigh as much as a deep dedicated to brood. And typically, you will have more of them.

Walt W


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## waynesgarden

>I'll stand by arrogant but only for lack of a better word.

A better word might be "confident."

Happy Holidays.

Wayne


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## wcubed

Mike:
In the spirit of the holiday season, I invite you to reassume your rightful place as the spokesman for the northern perspective. From here, I can only guess what complications result from your severe winters.
Respectfully,
Walt


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## Robbo

I wish someone would makea video of it and stick it on youtube - Am still none the wiser on what this is all about!!!


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## Bens-Bees

It's all about ensuring that the brood chamber has room to expand upward into without completely separating contact between the brood chamber and honey stores.


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## Jim Koenig

This is a great discussion and I have enjoyed reading most of the posts. It seems to me that the goal of CB or reversals is to remove the honey dome above the brood nest so the queen does not feel like she is running out of space. This might be a little simplistic, but that appears to be the intended purpose of both management styles.

Since the goal is to open up the brood area, do you still use a queen excluder?


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## NeilV

If you checkerboard, you do not use an excluder.


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## sc-bee

I have tried to CB the hives I could for the past two years.

I really don't care what kind of swarms you call them --- Repo--- cut-off etc.

As already pointed out --- I believe alot of material in beekeeping books is someones opinion or observation, or for that matter alot posted on forums is a matter of opinion.

With that said CB has worked for me. Thanks again Walt for your perceived arrogance  or confidence as I would like to call it. 

I just wish they would start a pinned section on
Checkerboarding for those who would like to learn about it and ask questions without the NAYSAYERS. With the questions directed straight to you.

Don't get me wrong the learning discussion is great. And I like to hear others ways of achieving the same thing. 

I do get a little confused sometimes when I read the CB articles. Probably my fault, but I do know from reading Walt's new post, some of the articles have had updated observations since initial print (my reading of the POV is also not current --- I don't visit Beesource as often as I once did). I some times get the chronological order of the articles scrambled in my head that may also be a problem or maybe it's just my head thing:lpf:

I Just think (WISH) an area dedicated just to CB would be started for those that want to learn about it or have had success with it. 

Thanks again Walt. I'll save the bickering for others and just harvest my increased honey yields from the system you have been so kind to share, Even if others do feel it is the same wheel reinvented with a new name

Steve Seigler
Edgefield SC


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## wcubed

Steve:
Thanks for the post. You were already on my list of supporters from our past communications.
Others:
Would like to resurrect this thread before it slides off into Barry's barn full of giga chips. Been away for awhile, but have some time this month to address the areas of friction in the forgoing. I understand the friction and have no grudge against those who react with normal human responses. But some of those responses need an explanation. And I concede that I gave Mr. Palmer some short answers. My lack of keyboard skills are a problem if a long discussion is required. Expect them piecemeal through the remainder of the winter.
Walt


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## heaflaw

I don't know enough yet to ask intelligent questions, but I am very much looking forward to more discussion.


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## Roland

Walt, I would love to respectfully discuss your system vs. a single deep , with deep supers, system; but I am not sure this is the right venue. I can comprehend the value of your system, however I question if it is the MOST economical for some one in a commercial northern environment.

Rolandi


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## NeilV

Roland,

Don't wish to step on Walt's toes, but here's what I think:

All beekeeping is local, and you are probably right that something different than Walt suggests may work better up north.

In fact, BWrangler on here (Dennis Murrell) posted a link about an alternative checkerboarding system he uses in Wyoming that does use all deeps. I think that it is on this thread. 

Walt has developed a specific system, but it is the underlying ideas that matter. The execution is pretty flexible. You can do it like Walt does exactly, or you can do it will all mediums or all deeps. 

Neil

Edit: Here's the link again: http://bwrangler.wordpress.com/stuff/checker-boarding/


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## wcubed

Neil is correct. Colleen, on an island off Seattle wintered in triple deeps. She bought the manuscript when it was first offered and wanted to know how to apply the concepts to her config. Recommended she CB the bottom empty with the top honey. Have a picture of her 3 steps up on a stepladder to super the hive. She's a strong supporter, and promotes the concepts in the Seattle area.

It is difficult to apply the concepts to the double deep without a third deep. About as close as you can come is reverse deeps and add a super of drawn comb at the same time. In my area, where the upper deep is typically filled with honey in late winter and the brood nest is in the bottom box, reversal is not practical. You want the overhead honey to expand into. If you wait until the brood nest expands into the upper, then reverse, the brood nest is separated by the remaining capped honey reserve. It takes some time for the colony to recover from the disruption, but they will eventually convert the remaining capped honey to brood by consumption - uniting the separated brood volumes. I take a dim view of any process that slows down colony development. More bees make more honey.

Note that in the above reversal most of the brood is in the lower deep. When raised, the excess cluster bees that gather above to cap or limit heat rise, will spill over into a super of drawn comb, if added at the same time. They can't stand empty comb underfoot. They will start filling the empty comb within the cluster with nectar on a priority basis. Overhead storage of nectar is a key ingredient of swarm prevention.

In more northerly areas where the cluster is located in the top deep and the lower is basically empty, reversal works a little differently. When the empty is raised, those excess cluster bees that were squashed against the top of the hive now are free to form their normal domed cluster shape, enfolding a large voume of empty cells, on multiple frames. The same urgency applies to filling those cells with nectar. But they will replace that nectar with brood quite quickly. A large dome of brood appears between inspections. While this appears to be a spurt in brood voume, it's difficult to guess how much the cramped quarters earlier slowed development. The "spurt" may be just compensation for the earlier restriction.

Mr. Palmer's approach is unique. With cluster in the top deep, he adds a super of drawn comb early. Gets them storing overhead, then later reverses the deeps. I really wanted to meet with him to understand the timing with respect to field forage. Even shopped for tire chains in the mountainous ragions of VA. When he said "blizzard", I cancelled out. They close highways in blizzards - wasn't prepared for being turned back. Still don't know if he has any problems with separating the overhead nectar from the box of brood by inserting the empty in between. Seems like timing and field forage availability would be critical.

Enough for tonight,
Walt


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## DRUR

I guess I will weigh in on this issue somewhat. 

*First:* I kept bees from the late 70's through the late 80's running midnites (caucasions) and usually requeening all my colonies late summer early fall (August/September) time period here. My queens were marked and so at the time believed I had a handle on the swarming problem and don't think I ever remember a swarm save 1. But caucasions are not bad about swarming. 

*Second:* I ran two deeps brood boxes (same as Michael Palmer appears to) then, but intend to run three mediums now. After brood rearing started in earnest here (early to mid February), I would reverse the boxes and scrap the honey cap in the upper box before reversing the brood boxes, under the theory that the bees would move the honey up and use most of it on the way. Seemed to work for me. To me swarming was never a problem, but rather maximum populations were, as our main flow here runs from mid April to late May/earlyJune. I have to say that I am rather surprised at the evidently recurring swarming issue that continuously appears in threads; however, I suppose I might experience the same in this new environement. My vertical two queened colonies produced a bunch more honey but was a lot more work. I will be trying a different management technique this year which I may share in a thread when I have more time.

*Third:* I am in the South (central part of east Texas), so I assume Walt's bees and my bees would work the same. I would try to go into winter with a deep (upper brood box) full of capped honey and a nice cap on the lower box. My experience was that the winter cluster was usually centered in the middle 5-6 frames and moved upwards into the upper honey supply before brood rearing started in full swing. However, the bees seemed to move past the outer honey stores leaving them behind, which I would also scrap and deal with when reversing brood boxes. I haven't read Walts theories on the drawbacks of double deeps (although I will if/when I get the time), but two deep brood boxes seemed to work just fine for me. My reason for going to mediums is interchangability of boxes and not brood rearing problems in deeps.

*Fourth:* I am not such an old dog that I won't learn a new trick. Therefore once I get my 3 medium configuration I will make a comparison between the normal brood box reversal vs. checkerboarding; although I must say reversing brood boxes always worked just fine for me.

kindest regards
DRU


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## wcubed

DRUR:
You posted a minute after I did.

I like your scheme. By scrap(e), I assume you mean uncap. Have seen nothing in the literature that would lead me into that approach. Why didn't I think of that?? Original with you??

As this thread rolls along, we may find other ways to skin this cat.

If reversal/uncapping of honey produces upscale of the equivalent 2 and a half deeps of brood, we can conclude that the approaches are equivalent.

Walt


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## NeilV

DRUR,

I have one all medium hive. On that one, I have figured out that overwintering on four mediums is best for checkerboarding. They don't fill up the fourth medium for winter but put some in there. By spring, I have enough empty comb in the top two boxes that I can checkerboard what's on the hive already from the top two boxes. Then I add a medium of drawn comb on top. I do this around the last week of Feb/1st week of March, as weather allows. 

On this configuration, the bottom box is mostly full of stored pollen. 

You end up with a really big hive for March 1. However, by mid-April things are just booming, assuming no other problems with the hive.


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## DRUR

NeilV said:


> DRUR,
> You end up with a really big hive for March 1. However, by mid-April things are just booming, assuming no other problems with the hive.


NeilV: Thanks for sharing.



wcubed said:


> DRUR:
> You posted a minute after I did.


Yes I noticed that, only one minute later so I was not aware of your last post although I have spent time reading through the whole thread which took me some time.



wcubed said:


> DRUR:By scrap(e), I assume you mean uncap.


Yes and thanks for the spelling correction




wcubed said:


> DRUR:Have seen nothing in the literature that would lead me into that approach. Original with you??


I don't know, after a while you do things that you forget where they come from. Could have been some of my experimenting buddies Mark Hamilton or Buckshot Johnston or from the beekeeping club I was in back then.

have to go wife calling me to lunch.


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## fafrd

Walt,

I'm happy to see that you have reviced this thread and I have an old question for you that I never saw an answer to:

I've been reading through various of your articles on Checkerboarding, including the May 2006 article from Bee Culture.

In that article, you state that: "The CB/NM colonies requeen themselves on an annual basis, and it’s free. "

Maybe I missed something, in which case I apologize, but could you please explain why checkerboarding casues supersedure and/or point to any of your articles that makes that relationship clear?

thanks in advance,

-fafrd

p.s. I obviously would welcome input from anyone else besides Walt that knows the answer to this question as well...


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## Adrian Quiney WI

fafrd, responding to your invite. I recall reading, I believe in Walt's article somewhere, that the system promotes supercedure because the queen's pheromone is spread so thin over such a large number of bees. Adrian.


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## B Reeves

Walt, 
Just started reading about checkerboarding, I often thought of the spring swarms as a impulse driven by the longer days in addition to other factors ( many other animals and insects use day length as a trigger for behavior ) , I am in central Florida and run a deep and a medium is there a way checkerboarding can fit into my operation?
Bob


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## fafrd

Adrian,

thanks for your response. Why would checkerboarding spread the queens pheramone out any more than the equivalent numbers of supers with full frames and empty frames?

-fafrd


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## wcubed

fafrd:
Adrian must have me confused with someone else. I not only didn't say that, I don't believe that queen scent is involved in any way. The PhDs are locked in to Q scent as the "cause" of swarming. Just not true. Mother Nature is not going to let something as critical as reproduction depend on chance. Treated somewhere in the articles. Our bees have an orderly progression through specific steps to generate a repro swarm without endangering survival of the parent colony. Complex, but not unintelligible.

Re Supersedure (SS)
Quick answer: I don't know. But will offer some speculation based on timing in the early season bee schedule.
The second year colony will SS promptly at repro c/o. That's the peak of brood nest expansion and season maximum brood volume. The more established colony will SS within the next few weeks of that timing. These notes pertain to colonies that are CBed.

Nobody knows what the criteria is that the colony uses to judge performance of their queen. But they are good at it. Often, the colony invokes SS and we see no reason for it. Trust them - they have criteria that we can only guess about.

CB creats much larger brood volumes than standard management. The Q is pushed to lay at higher rates than literature levels. Like half again or double. Depending on whose numbers you use.

My guess is that the CBed colony senses the strain on their Q in keeping up with the increased demand and elects to SS.

A relevant story. Am I not the "story" man?
A gentleman retired and came home with his 100 plus colonies to a road I travel sometimes. Seeing a batch of colonies suddenly appear, stopped in to meet him. Each time I stopped in (already into CBing) when I told him what I was doing at the time, he would launch into a lecture on what I should be doing based on literature conventional wisdom.

One spring, in the swarming season, mentioned my bees were superseding.
He came apart with a laughing fit. He actually thought I was seeing swarm cells, and didn't know any better. When he recovered his composure, I challanged him to go with me to an outyard and see for himself. It was either agree to go or get worked over on the spot. He went.

I actually had not seen any SS cells at the time, but it was time on the bee/tree schedule for it to be happening. (Some of that confidence thing) We opened four hives, and two had SS cells in work. On the way back he said "looked like swarm cells to me." Hopeless. Why am wasting my time on this expert beekeeper?

Have a ton of these stories, but will try to keep it to a minimum.

Walt


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## fafrd

Thanks for the reply, Walt.

So to summarize, you believe that the bees have a natural instinct to SS under certain running conditions, such as the queen not being able to keep up with the egg-laying demands of the hive. Since you believe that the hive managed with CBing has a significantly greater brood volume than that using standard management techniques, CBing appears to lead to increased SS.

That makes sense. I guess the only other question I would have is why the brood volume of the CBed hive is so much greater than for standard management techniques (than box reversal, for example)? I thought the brood frames were not CBed, only the honey and empty frames.

-fafrd

p.s. your story also brings up the question of how common it is for any hive to SS and for the SS to be mistaken for a swarm cell - is there an easy and reliable way to tell the difference?


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## Robbo

Please get someone to follow you round with a video camera the next few months Walt is all I have to say!!!


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## wcubed

B Reeves:
Have no feedback from tropical areas, but it works well on the Gulf coast. My friend Rob Koss, west side of Mobile has been applying the concepts for several years. PM him. (I keep bees on this forum) Think he posted on this thread - way back. Am expecting some feedback from central Africa later this season.
Walt


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## sc-bee

Walt since you are monitoring this thread. Just a quick question without digging through the literature. A very basic question about the timing of the CB manipulation.

I have done the CB manipulation based on my notes for white wax in my area ( usually 1st or second week in April) six to eight weeks prior to white wax. I am approaching this time frame soon--- mid to late Feb.

What is the lead time you use based on white wax, eight weeks? 

I know you have also referenced Apple bloom in your area. I find the CB manipulation in my area to be close to the full bloom period of Red Maple.


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## heaflaw

Walt,

I read in Michael Bush's website that we can purchase a detailed manuscript from you on Checkerboarding. How much is it, what format and how do we order it?

Thanks


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## wcubed

fafrd:
Expansion of the broodnest continues up to repro c/o when CBed. An unexpected bonus of the process. If you ask me why, you'll get another "I don't know." Do not feel it's necessary to understand the bee's reasoning or instincts to report what I see. 

Re SS ID: Clues to SS have been noted on other threads, but will be recapped here. Briefly: Number and age of development. My rule of thumb is a max of 6 cells indicates SS locally. A few more in other areas. A more positive indication is that SS cells are generally all at roughly the same stage of development. The colony in SS makes a few cells and quits, but the swarming colony continues to add backup cells for a longer time and may have cells from capped to egg age. And may have 20 or more in development at the same time. Keep in mind that these numbers are PER BOX LEVEL. Have seen a colony SS with brood nest expansion into shallows up through several levels at 4 to 6 cells per level for a total of about 20.

See the article (July 05) in POV for a description of SS as seen in CBed colonies.

This info is relevant to established colonies, All bets are off for first year colonies with less comb developed,
Walt


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## wcubed

sc bee:
Quick answer - yes, 8 weeks.
Can't say about red maple. The tree schedule vs the bee schedule varies. The relationship for my area is offered for reference only. See the article in POV on Black Locust (Jan 05) for an introduction to the scatter in timing of that tree species for different areas.

Note that the different tree species do not march to the same drummer. In this period of climate change, I see different sequencing from what was fairly consistent in the early 90s of more consistent spring seasons.
Walt


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## wcubed

heaflaw:
Inquire of Son in law, Roy at my old e mail address - Walt [email protected] com.- underscore necessary. He will send you a standard blurb on ways and means.

I generally direct questions to the articles in POV, but the manuscript is a little better organized than the scattershot articles. Some of the same text appears in both. In some cases there is more detail in the manuscript than the article, and vice versa. I tell you this because paper peddling is of low interest to me.

It's interesting that tecumseh accused me of withholding information to sell books on another thread. Will give him the benefit of doubt and assume he didn't know the info was available for free in POV. I give away enough copies of the manuscript to offset any gain from sales. My primary driver is to get the word to the next generation of beeks.
Walt


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## fafrd

Walt,

thanks again for your reply. So a single generation of queen cells limited to the desity you described is more indicative of SS, versus swarming being indicated by several different generations of queen cells and a higher density through the hive. This is very helpful. Is there any other indicator of SS versus swarming in terms of hive behaviour that you can think of, such as backfilling, etc...?

If rate and magnitude of broodnest expansion is greater with CBing than box reversal, and the more rapid expansion leads to SS, this all makes sense, but that means that the broodnest expands upwards into the 2 CBed supers more quickly with CBing than with box reversal. Just to be clear - the two supers are CBed with alternating honey and empty drawn frames over the broodnest, and the broodnest expands upwards into the 2 CBed supers, correct? This means that the bees either move some of the honey or consume it to make room for brood, right? Which is it in your experience - moving honey frm the full frames or beginning broodnest in the empty frames?

A final question for you - I want to CB my hives this spring but it is clear that regional variation as far as the dates for repro c/o and white wax are critical to adjust the schedule for local conditions. Do you know of anyone who has successfully used CBing in the Bay Area (Northern California / San Francisco area)?

thanks again for your help. I'm very interested in giving this sytem a try.

-fafrd


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## ikeepbees

I have begun my checkerboarding for this season! Nice to get back in and see the bees. Looks like they are a little behind this year, I assume due to the cold snap. I am waiting anxiously to see if the red maple bloom was affected by the cold weather, as I have no experience with the temperatures we had for so many consecutive days.


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## sc-bee

Hi Rob

I noticed the early bloom reds we have here are beginning to get a red hue to the buds. Right on schedule even though we had an extended cold spell.

Also we are about to wash away with rain!!!


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## Walts-son-in-law

heaflaw said:


> Walt,
> 
> I read in Michael Bush's website that we can purchase a detailed manuscript from you on Checkerboarding. How much is it, what format and how do we order it?
> 
> Thanks


 
Roy here,

Walt gave you all a slightly incorrect email address for the manuscript. He gave you Walt Wright_ at hotmail dot com. It should have been:
Waltwright_ at hotmail dot com (No space between Walt and wright, no other spaces, underscore IS necessary, at and dot spelled out to foil the bots).

Our DSL is currently down at our house. Walt connects through my wireless router. This is why you haven't heard from Walt in a while. I hope to have it back up no later than this weekend.

I am able to access the email above and this forum from work, but cannot spend much time on either. For some reason my company expects me to perform work that makes them money while I am here ;-)

Roy


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## ikeepbees

Hey SC - apparently I worried for nothing. The maples are blooming nicely! I put some honey out just to see if the bees would be interested - they ignored it. Must be a pretty good flow going on!


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## wcubed

Well, I'm connected. You can thank the Bell system for the break in my prattling for last week.

fafrd:
If you know when to expect repro c/o on your bee schedule (about 3 weeks prior to the new wax of main flow) the CBed colony shifts from swarm ambition to SS at that time.

Havn't monitored for an answer to the consumption vs moving of honey question. But the feed band above the brood expansion dome is maintained in the formally empty frames. Can't tell from observation whether the feed band is maintained by moving honey or is filled with incoming nectar. But am inclined to guess that incoming nectar is the source, since that frame continues to fill with nectar to the top and beyond.

Have no feedback from the Bay Area.
Walt


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## fafrd

Walt,

thanks for the response. I've asked local beekeepers about the schedule for 'White Wax' in this region, and here is the answer I recieved (today):

> White wax begins with the nectar flow, Eucalyptus has been blooming and 
> is a sign that new baby bees will be hatching more and more, since they 
> make the wax you'll soon see the "freshing" of white wax. I believe we'll be
> seeing swarms in about 3 weeks so get your equipment ready!


Does this mean that I am now three weeks from white wax in this area, and if so, when should I plan to checkerboard?

-fafrd


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## sc-bee

fafrd

See replies 144 and 147

CB Manipulation is 8 weeks before white wax.


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## wcubed

If swarms are expected in three weeks, last week would almost be soon enough. Three weeks ago would be better.
Walt


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## MWillard

wcubed said:


> It can be done in the middle of winter. If the cluster is below the box to be CBed, a few warmed bees might come up to investigate the intrusion, but there is little harm in that.


Walt,
I'm curious what's your definition of late winter? In TN the temps may be more suitable for accessing the hives at this time of the year. What's your recommendation for folks that live in cold weather climates like New England? Is there a targe temp that you would deem acceptable to open the hive and start CBing?


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## wcubed

Late winter here is now - Feb and March. The temps fluctuate from teens to 50s in Feb but mostly range in 20s to 40s. The bees get air time on warmer swings in late Feb. Warming through March, but with still frosty mornings all month. Last frost about 1 April. 

Today, noticed the daffadils are putting up leaves - will bloom before the end of the month. Snow and ice last weekend, but for some species winter is over.....Dates not relevant in Vermont, but the indicators might help. Also note that April 1 is into the local repro swarm issue period.

Walt


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## wcubed

Didn't answer the whole question. I generally do not work in a hive at less than 50 degrees. At cluster breaking temps they can reorganize when I'm done. If the forcast is for say 55, the temp will move through 50 about 10 AM and fall back through 50 about 3 PM. I work colonies in the first half of that period (noonish) and quit to allow them to recover.

Walt


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## sc-bee

Walt,

Work a hive --- are we talking CB'ing?

Am I correct that you can CB at temps lower than 50 or you recommend 50 and above?


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## wcubed

Now, you're pinning me down. It's one of those 'do as I sayand not as I do" things. I've been known to CB in a drizzling rain in the low 40s. Takes a fairly delicate touch to keep from disrupting the cluster. So, we can't recommend that for everybody. You can slam/bang around some with the recommendation.
Walt


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## sc-bee

We usually have at least 50 or above by CB time. A lot of times in the low 60's. I fully dress out because usually the bees get airborne and very nasty. 

I use smoke, that may be my mistake. It may break the cluster and disturb them to much. Never thought of it that way.


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## little55

Walt,
I know by reading your articles that you put your colonies to work after the main flow drawing comb. My problem is that I have 15 production hives and all of my drawn comb is now sitting on them cbed. I have accomplished my goal to get all my hives cbed but my problem is supering using foundation for the main flow. How does one go about this in your opinion?


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## wcubed

Glad you asked. Gives me the opportunity to make a couple more observations not found elsewhere. Take the following with a grain or shaker full of salt.

It would have been better from a production standpoint if you had only CBed some of the colonies and kept part of the drawn comb for overhead storage of nectar during the build up period. Too late now. When devoping the system, never had enough drawn comb myself. Understand the problem, but don"t have a good answer for a way out.

Established colonies will not do much with foundation until the main flow starts. (no wax makers) If you manage to get them to repro c/o with the present config, you will be okay. F at the top will get drawn at the beginning of main flow. (after the natural lull) 

The grain of salt part:
For the colony that expanded the brood nest as far as they dared with the overhead CBed, and started brood nest reduction, with about 3 weeks to repro c/off, is likely to swarm. Early in the backfilling process of swarm preps, try inserting a super of F in, or immediatly above, the brood nest. No guarantees, but it will get their attention, and may delay swarm preps to repro c/o.

Should they swarm in spite of your efforts, all is not lost. Assuming you have gotten more brood volume as a result of CB, you are better off for it. Evidence suggests that the strong CBed colony does not halve the population with the swarm. That may be essentialy true for standard management, but the CBed colony seems to only issue an amount of bees that they "think" is adequate for establishment. A normal swarm. That means that the colony remaining bees are more more populous and can improve production over standard management. This tidbit has not been reported before, and was not seen in my colonies, but by colonies of a friend who ran out of drawn comb to keep up with his bees when CBed.

Walt


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## sc-bee

I CB'ed yesterday while we had a break in the rain and the temps were in the low 60's. Good thing rain and low temps again today.

I had the same predicament as above -- just can't seem to build up enough drawn comb mainly because I incrased my colonies from 6 to ten last year.

I managed to CB four of the 10 yesterday. Not sure what the strength should look like now . I estimate three to four frames of bees. One colony had 1 1/2 supers of honey. The others about 3/4 super of honey each. 

The colony that had the most entered winter with a poles shallow on bottom, which is now empty as Walt says and two supers of honey. The others with 1 1/2 or so supers of honey. 

I cb'ed the colonies that only about a super of honey left at this point. It is what I did the first year I tried CB'ing before the two super recommendation. 

I have four supers of drawn foundation left and started to CB one more colony. I decided to hold it back. Glad I did now. Hope the one super for each colony gets me to white wax which should be about the second week of April based on the last few years. Based on current indications we are about a week behind the three previous years and white wax may not be until the third week of April. I am basing this on Red Maple Bloom.

Thanks Walt
Steve


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## little55

Well if I see swarm cells or backfilling of nectar in brood I guess I could always make some nucs with the extra brood volume. I was planning on expanding my operation to about 40 colonies after I pull my honey in late May or June anyway. That's why I like this manipulation so well because it gives me endless possibilities with the extra brood volume thanks Walt.


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## wcubed

Should have mentioned that you can improve your drawn comb inventory by inserting a box of foundation at the top of the brood and below the accumulated nectar/honey. It's extra work, but the colony "wants" honey immediately above the brood nest. On the trailing edge of the flow, they will draw F above the brood nest when they will ignore F added at the top. It might pay you "bottom super" with F all the way through the main flow. Have not done that - speculation.
Walt


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## ehotham

I understand that you checkerboard when elms bloom. Are there any other plants that bloom at the same time?
Elms have all died here from dutch elm disease.
Thanks


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## Fuzzy

Walt,

I did try "bottom supering" last year with outstanding results. The colony developed into a monster hive and produced 8 boxes of honey before I got behind and they swarmed in late June. But that is OK. The major flow is over by that time and they have enough time to rebuild and go into winter. At one point, in a particularly good flow, that one hive filled 2 supers in 2 weeks.

Will definintely be doing that again this year. -- Fuzzy


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## BuzzyBee

ehotham said:


> Are there any other plants that bloom at the same time?


Around here, silver maple and elm trees usually are within a week or two of each other. You can also go to Dave's link http://www.drobbins.net/bees/blooms.html and select a zip code close to yours, then click the "get blooms" button. This will let you see what bloomed last year around your area. Hope that helps some.

BB


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## AramF

Well, I just finished reading all 18 pages of the thread and I believe I still have some questions for Walt. So here they go.

I assume that CB is not an issue for the beginner with a starting hive because first year, the bees will be basically building up their broodnest. Each time the box gets filled to about 8th frame, I will add another body/super for them to continue filling it up with new comb, larvae and honey. Hopefully by the end of the year I will be able to have 3 medium bodies for bees to winter in.

So here is my first question. Let's say in March I CBed my hive. Am I to feed them sugar to help with expansion or make them use the winter reserves untill those are done. This is not a clear issue to me, becuase since I'll be moving frames all over the place I will not know which ones are honey frames and which ones are converted sugar frames. With some much empty comb all over the hive, how would I differenciate which honey is harvestable for my use.

Second question. What happens when God smiles at you and you have loads of nectar coming in. How do you add more suppers to honey collection. From the pictures I've seen I basically have 2 alternating suppers and 1 empty supper over the alternating supers. What if they fill up all these suppers, what is the method for adding new supers? Maybe the expectation is to harvest honey and rearrange in the CB style. In addtion, what should be the structure for the main late summer flow? I am not clear about that.

Third, if I have a queen that decides to build vertically, am I to rearrange her brood structure and force her into the lower brood box, while CBing the rest of the hive?

Last, usually the outlying frames in the brood box are honey stores. In CB methodology, does it make sence to move that honey up, or should I just leave it as is for nurse bees to consume to feed larvae.

Just to clear up some assumption I am planning to use all med, 10 frame bodies. Live in Pacific NW where the current temperatures are nice 40-50F, but March and April can give some nasty winds, hales and rains.


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## wcubed

AramF:

Anybody that waded through all that stuff earned an answer. 

You are correct in that 2nd year colonies are tough to keep from swarming.
The beginner beek, with only foundation to work with is handicapped in what he can do in the way of swarm prevention. The overwintered colony perceives foundation and drawn comb quite differently. There is, however, a period in late winter when the 2nd year colony DOES recognize foundation as usable space and developes early wax making to start drawing the foundation. We have only seen this a few times, and are not well versed in the reliability of making it happen. The cases we have seen were starter colonies overwintered in a single deep. Prior to the swarm prep period a deep of foundation was added above the overwintered deep. We concluded that the surplus bees, which normally collect at the top of the cluster, spilled over into the added deep of foundation. With the cluster enfolding the foundation, colony perception was improved to the point that the colonies generated wax makers ahead of their normal schedule. They grew the broodnest into the added deep. Some swarmed, and some superseded. Don't think I have reported this material before, but is included here for anyone who might be interested in studying the concept further.
I think the subject should be investigated further and I'm not able.

To the questions:
(1) An under-published feature of colony internal operations is their penchent for replacing last years honey with fresh honey this season. The capped honey reserve is protected through the swarm prep period by feeding on incoming nectar. At the end of the swarm prep period, and coming up on peak local forage availability, the colony emphasis shifts to consumption of the old honey and replacement with this season's nectar.
Applying this to the question - there is not likely going to be any of last season's honey/feed at harvest time this season. No need to keep track of last season's frames.

(2)If you get the desired effects of CB, all of the boxes involved in the manipulation will contain the expanded broodnest. Since we do not disrupt the broodnest, supers are added at the top. The second requirement of CB is to maintain empty space at the top - drawn comb until the start of new wax at main flow, then foundation is okay.

(3) We have only seen smokestacking in one season here (2 of 20). I later wished that I had consolidated the brood. The colonies were already 7 feet tall. If we had encountered the situation again, we would be prepared to consolidate - honey at outside, pollen 2nd frame in, and brood between. 

(L) That frame of honey at the outside of a brood chamber is a comfort factor in the makeup of the broodnest. In keeping with our aversion to broodnest disruption, we leave it alone. You can do whatever you choose.

Pleased that someone found this old thread.
Walt


----------



## AramF

Thank you Walt. I was hoping you'd be notified when I posted, looks like it worked.

This is the critical element that I missed in CB. All of the rearrangements are for construction of the new brood nest. I originally thought that all of the construction was to prevent swarming and for bees to fill the empty comb with spring honey. So once the nectar flow starts I can add supers with foundation on top of the checkerboarded hive for harvestable honey. The wax makers will draw it out and fill up with. What will go on bellow that is basically bee's concern. (1)Would I wait untill the the CBed empty comb in the top is filled with honey before I place my super with foundation?

In the not-perfect world, how would I know if I need to feed syrup in the spring to CBed hive. (2) Would I regularly check the hive to ensure that it has honey for the bees, or offer the syrup and see if they take it. I am concerned because I am opening up the space above for bees to expand, last thing I need to do is to plug up that space with sugar syrup and undo all of my work.

I am sorry for loading you up with all of that, but if I can see the process in my head then I can be very effective in implementing it.

By the way, thank you for the published material in the Point of View. Very interesting, informative and understandable.


----------



## wcubed

Adjusting your wording some: The results of the manip. is not to generate a "new" brood nest, but to open the overhead capped honey to encourage further broodnest expansion. That barrier of capped honey limits expansion and starts swarm preps (backfilling.) The broodnest simply continues to expand upward and increase in total volume for another brood cycle. Going into the main flow, the top of the broodnest recedes with incoming honey storage. When the colony gets it right, the broodnest is back where it started at mid season and the area of the CB manipulation is filled with harvestable honey.

Re late winter feeding:
We do not believe the propaganda on "stimulative" feeding. We tried it (all up for two years) and could see no gain for the extra work and expense. There may be some areas of the country with poor early season field nectar, where some benefit is derived, but not here. But that's not what you asked. 
Typically, within a couple weeks of the CB manip, the colony will be storing nectar in the alternate frames of empty comb. That storage starts as soon as the cluster covers some of those empty cells. You would have to be desparate for something to waste your time and money on to feed syrup when it's obvious that the colony is storing field nectar. Locally, we get a couple supers of raw nectar accumulated during the swarm prep period.

CB is a whole new world.
Walt


----------



## treeoflife

Wow, I just skimmed through this entire thread and I'm almost cross-eyed at this point. Lots of stuff!! :lookout: 

One question I still have (and I apologize if I missed the answer) is, what does one do with the frames of honey that have been replaced with the empty comb? Let the bees have them above the inner cover to clean out? Thanks!


----------



## AramF

I will go out on a limb, being only student of Walt's findings, but if you have one super of winter honey, you take positions 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 and move them up into the super with empty comb, and take displaced empty comb and move it down to fill the void just created in the honey super. Just make sure that the frames are directly over each other as not to create traffic bottlenecks as bees go up between these supers. Then place another set of empty comb on top of the two checherboarded supers. THat should break the honey ceiling and provide ample space for expansion of the broodnest. After the swarm cut off (c/o) date, the bees will backfill most of the "checkerboarded" broodnest with nectar, ending down in the original deep brood box that they started with in the winter.


----------



## NeilV

Walt says: "Locally, we get a couple supers of raw nectar accumulated during the swarm prep period."

I have gotten about a super of stored honey from what would usually be the swarm/buildup period, if the bees were Italian. My Russian bees would not store honey early, as they were still building up, which is why I stopped using Russian bees. In my experience, in this location, checkerboarding not only reduces swarming but also causes the bees to store extractable honey sooner. 

A key point is to get the checkerboard manipulation done sufficiently early in the year or may not work. Late February works for me. A practical problem for a person like me with a job is that I need to find a warm day when I am free to work bees. Mother nature does not seem to care about my schedule. This may also make checkerboarding work best for people in the mid-south and south. (Walt is pretty close to the same latitude as me, I think.)

The last post about how to rearrange the comb has it right but backwards (usually). The capped honey typically should be in the top super, so it gets moved down (not up). However, you really just have to look and see what you have and work with it. 

This year, I'm afraid I will not have much stored honey to move around and checkerboard with. We had a dry fall and a cold winter. I fed last fall, but not enough, I'm afraid. I need it to warm up and get the willows and maples in bloom. But instead its snowing again. 

I do question Walt's idea that the frames need to be lined up between boxes. I use 9 frames top to bottom mostly. However, I have had some hives that had 10 in the brood area and 9 in the supers. Couldn't discern any difference. The notion that bees have bottlenecks may be more of a human perspective than a bee perspective. Certainly, when bees build a natural hive in a tree, things are not exactly lined up. However, this is a minor point. What is undeniable is that it is easier to work a hive with 9 frames. The bees can't tell me how many frames they prefer to live on (and beekeepers can't seem to agree on that either).


----------



## okaive

Okay, I checked the glossary before posting this. What is checkerboarding? I have my thoughts, but usually they are wrong.


----------



## NewbeeNnc

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm

Towards the bottom.


----------



## okaive

NewbeeNnc said:


> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm
> 
> Towards the bottom.


Thanks


----------



## sc-bee

I will have to re-read my manuscript on nectar management. I have not re-read the post above but I do not remember anything about lining the frames up with each other. Actually I thought it was opposite as to alternate them in each box checkered. I really haven't seen a difference if lined up or alternated.

I have indeed seen a reduction in swarm with hives manipulate early enough. *The key is early enough.* I have also seen an increase in honey production.

You have to try it and tweak it to your area, as Walt has made this clear. My biggest difference in my area is problems with backfilling in the brood chamber for overwintering due to late brood emerging after nectar flow has gone. I have had two back to back seasons with excessive late brood emergence. This had made the backfilling difficult without feeding.

Thanks again Walt!!!


----------



## NeilV

The "lined up frames" does not refer to lining up frames that are empty/full. I refers to physically lining up frames between boxes so that bee don't have to go around corners. That is why Walt uses 9 frame boxes from top to bottom, instead of having the brood boxes 10 and the supers 9. My point was that I don't think this matters to the bees. My other point was that I also question whether this matters enough to care about either way and 9 frame boxes are easier to work.

OTOH, I know Michael Bush advocates sticking 11 frames in a box, so who knows?

We need to teach a few bees to talk, preferably English, and see what they really think.


----------



## sc-bee

Sorry I misunderstood! And I agree 9 or 10 whatever fits. I run 9 in shallow drawn boxes and 10 in deep(brood chambers). Wish I had all eight but that is an entirely different subject.

Teach a few bees to talk---- they would probably say, quit taking the roof off my house


----------



## SERGE

*Re: Checkboarding*

Hi Walt,
I read some of your articles, after battling swarming issues being a new beekeeper, and learned a lot. Thank you so much for your contributions! I am experimenting with keeping russian bees and am wondering if you have any input about checkerboarding with them. Have you worked with them or maybe know some beeks that have and tried out the checkerboarding method on them? As you know, they are some of the worst for swarming. I have talked to a beekeeper that has pretty good success with them by splitting his in the spring and combining back together right before the flow, not sure if this or checkerboarding might work better for them. I am thinking of trying out both next year to see the difference. 
I noticed that when getting ready to swarm they try to put at least a little bit of honey in all empty cells to not give the queen a chance to lay. I believe they also confine the brood nest in the spring with honey around it. They seem a little trickier to keep. Any special suggestions for working with these bees or written articles? Thanks so much!
Serge


----------



## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

SERGE:
Did this once, but it disappeared.
When pure Russians were available, bought two queens to see if they reacted any different than other Euro races. Monitored them very closely. A small sample, but we saw no evidence of any difference in checkerboarding effects and did no further testing.

Walt


----------



## SERGE

*Re: Checkboarding*

Thank you Walt, good to know.


----------



## SERGE

*Re: Checkboarding*

Walt,
I understand that with the checkerboarding method, the hives will supersede the old queen automatically. What part of spring or summer can the superseding be expected? I am guessing not to early in the season so the new queen can mate successfully in the warmer temperatures. I live in the Northwest coastal part of Washington State near Canada with somewhat mild and wet weather.
Thanks
Serge


----------



## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

Depends on colony age. 2nd year colonies tend to supersede (SS) promptly at reproductive cut off. That's three weeks prior to the new wax of "main flow". Third year and subsequent colonies generally start the SS process early in "main flow." The bees are efficiency experts. SS at that period is very little impact on season survival requirements. They have reared the workforce to resupply stores, and the potential break in brood rearing of SS can more easily be tolerated in that period. Perhaps we should have mentioned that repro c/o is the point of maximum brood volume for colonies that did not start brood nest reduction as part of swarm preps.

Walt


----------



## SERGE

*Re: Checkboarding*

Thanks again Walt. Good info.
Another question on this line. We get some dandelion and fruit tree honey flow in April and May, and can get some surplus honey from this. With checkerboarding, is it important to checkerboard just the frames right above the brood or all the boxes above the brood? How do the bees react to full boxes of honey above a checkerboarder box?
Thanks
Serge


----------



## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

That early nectar gets stored in the interleaved empty comb when CBed. You definately don't want to leave a band or box of capped honey above the CBed frames. The whole purpose of CBing is to break up that solid band of capped honey overhead. This averts backfilling by inducing the colony to store that early nectar overhead. Since backfilling is the first action of swarm preps, without backfilling, swarm preps do not get started.

No need to CB after once getting the colony storing nectar through their overhead solid capped honey reserve. After they break through the CBed frames, storing nectar at the top, all that is required is to maintain empty comb at the top.

Walt


----------



## msapostol

*Re: Checkboarding*

This is a lot to read!

Walt, after reading your articles in Bee Culture, we decided to CB our swarmy hive. They swarmed 3 times last year. They were, originally, a swarm we caught, so we don't know what race they are, but they are smaller and much more prolific wax builders than our Italians.

I'm pleased to say that they only swarmed once and it was a smaller swarm that we immediately caught. (They decided to set up in our worm box) I think what we might have done wrong was not check the brood nest to see if there was enough room. We didn't switch the brood boxes earlier this year, but I think CB works well for our bees and our climate.

We are always learning with the bees.


----------



## SERGE

*Re: Checkboarding*



wcubed said:


> That early nectar gets stored in the interleaved empty comb when CBed. You definately don't want to leave a band or box of capped honey above the CBed frames. The whole purpose of CBing is to break up that solid band of capped honey overhead. This averts backfilling by inducing the colony to store that early nectar overhead. Since backfilling is the first action of swarm preps, without backfilling, swarm preps do not get started.
> 
> No need to CB after once getting the colony storing nectar through their overhead solid capped honey reserve. After they break through the CBed frames, storing nectar at the top, all that is required is to maintain empty comb at the top.
> 
> Walt


Walt, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I realize that this is not really the time of the year for checkerboarding, but it's good to be informed and be ready for the next season.
I am wondering if broodnest widening is sometimes necessary by inserting empty frames between brood, in addition to checkerboarding. It seems like a good way to get that comb drawn out good, but I wonder, if it is sometimes necessary an how it fits in with the checkerboarding idea.
Thanks


----------



## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

CBing is NOT done in addition to "opening the broodnest" but instead of. Any brood nest disturbance stops expansion/growth for some recovery period. The colony must reorganize the broodnest and stores to recover from the disruption. The slow-down in development can help in swarm prevention. This is easy to understand if and when you accept the concept of a point in season (vegetation) development where reproductive swarm ambition is canceled. We call this period reproductive swarm cut off. It occurs locally in the fruit bloom timing period.

The advantage of CB over opening the brood nest or other brood nest disturbances is that CB speeds up nest expansion and the disturbance techniques interrupt or delay that expansion.

Walt


----------



## SERGE

*Re: Checkboarding*

Walt, I didn't think about "opening the broodnest" as being disruptive but it sure makes sense. Thanks for explaining that.
Do you think that with working with a more prone to swarm hive and trying to have it very strong for July blackberry flow, I would possibly benefit in the long run for the honey flow if I split it in April, have two heavy laying queens in both, and than combine right before the honey flow, thereby having a very strong hive for the flow and preventing swarming? Or would this method practically never surpass CB in my situation?


----------



## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

CB alone provides hives that get too high to work comfortably. Have not been tempted to add strength with one exception. Tried one season to combine two moderate-strength colonies in Feb. The resulting 10 foot high colonies (15 shallow supers of surplus) discouraged any further testing of the concept of making super producers. Of course you are free to try anything you think will help. 

Walt


----------



## sc-bee

*Re: Checkboarding*

Walt, 
you know I have followed you work for several years now. I have read you article swarm or supercedure which I will admit I understood least of all (sure that was my fault I will re-read). But above you said unless I misunderstood that supercedure is in main flow for established colonies. 

This is usually when I see most of my swarm cells (second week of April here white wax). If I did an inspection at that time I would freak out if I found any kind of queen cell. I guess it comes with confidence in the system and not doing an inspection during this period? First week of April begins the heat of my swarming season.

I did the pollen manurer on two hive this year. Did a full inspection last week and all the supers were already empty. I was expecting them to bee full till spring? 

It's been a weird year with weather etc. in my parts. Nothing seem to follow the expected schedule as it had in the previous two years or so.

Steve


----------



## Roland

*Re: Checkboarding*

Walt said:

Any brood nest disturbance stops expansion/growth for some recovery period.

What proof have you seen that this is true? We have not.

Crazy Roland


----------



## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

Steve:
You're right about weather patterns in this period of climate change. They seem to be getting worse rather than better.
About the pollen box. We checked ours early in the flow. Good pollen/no brood. Although I have not varied ways to do it enough to find all the ways that don't work, I think it helps to get that box of brood to the bottom board while the brood nest is still expanding upward.

Roland:
You may have nailed me to the wall on this one. I have no proof for my opinion and have done very little broodnest disturbance myself. My opinion is based on results of my contemporaries. Locally, those who use those techniques for swarm prevention do not get a significant increase in honey production.

I did try the Sechrist "clear brood nest" approach on an outyard of 12, one season. The colonies didn't swarm, but they didn't make much more honey than if they had swarmed. Am pretty sure they didn't swarm because they all were queenless with supersedure after the swarm season. That group and others in this area generally do not build more than a double deep of brood with that type of prevention. 

We recognize that timing and technique can have a major effect on results. If you get more than the equivalent of two deeps of brood, I could be persuaded to rethink my opinion.

Walt


----------



## Roland

*Re: Checkboarding*

Walt - Brood is hard to measure, because not all frames are solid brood. In your 2 deeps, can we assume that the outer frames are pollen? This leaves 16 frames. What percentage of those do you see as brood? Would it be easier to quantize is equivalent FULL frames of brood? I will l try to be more observant and record what we see.

Crazy Roland


----------



## SERGE

*Re: Checkboarding*



wcubed said:


> CB alone provides hives that get too high to work comfortably. Have not been tempted to add strength with one exception. Tried one season to combine two moderate-strength colonies in Feb. The resulting 10 foot high colonies (15 shallow supers of surplus) discouraged any further testing of the concept of making super producers. Of course you are free to try anything you think will help.
> 
> Walt


Thank you, Walt.
Wow, definitely a super hive! I would have loved to see it. 15 shallow supers of surplus, is that about 600 lbs of honey that the hive made in that season? Did any of those supers have to be checkerboarded with this super hive?

Walt, I am also wondering what a good amount of extra stores is needed in the spring for successful checkerboarding. I think I can see how not having enough stores, and checkerboarding, one could end up needing to feed because of the the fast rate of brood expansion and use up of honey stores in poor nectar gathering weather while checkerboarding? 
Thanks
Serge


----------



## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

SERGE:
Not that much. I average about 20 lbs per shallow super. A couple if mediums in the stack. I would guess a shade over 300. Not measured or weighed.

To prepare for CB in late winter, enough honey must be left in the fall to have a box of capped honey overhead prior to serious expansion in late winter/ early spring. CB that one box of honey, and maintain empty comb at the top the rest of the way. CB is a one-shot deal. Do it once in the early season, and forget it. Just keep up with empty supers.
Walt


----------



## SERGE

*Re: Checkboarding*

Sounds good, Walt. Yes, 300 lbs, and a 10 ft. high hive is impressive. 
Do I understand correctly that extra drawn out frames don't have to be kept in storage overwinter to make the CB work? 
Also you mention above, that CB is a one-shot deal. My understanding from reading one of your articles, is that the CB has to be kept-up every couple weeks until the reproductive cut off. But sounds like that is not the case?


----------



## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

Don't understand the super storage question.
I make no claim to being a writer, but I must have really been sloppy in that case.


----------



## sc-bee

*Re: Checkboarding*

Walt I overwintered with two shallows on each hive as I believe you do! At cb time late Feb early March white wax usually second week of April, I had more that one solid super of honey left, mainly due to a late manipulation of winter stores I made between hives. In most cases a super and a half or more. No expansion into the solid supers. 

What should you do with extra honey frames @ cb time if you have them? Remove them and only cb one super?


----------



## sc-bee

*Re: Checkboarding*



SERGE said:


> Sounds good, Walt. Yes, 300 lbs, and a 10 ft. high hive is impressive.
> Do I understand correctly that extra drawn out frames don't have to be kept in storage overwinter to make the CB work?
> Also you mention above, that CB is a one-shot deal. My understanding from reading one of your articles, is that the CB has to be kept-up every couple weeks until the reproductive cut off. But sounds like that is not the case?


Not trying to butt in, but I don't understand the storage statement either as I have been following this post.

One shot deal Walt means cb once but you have to continue adding supers above throughout season after the one time cb. Stay two super ahead.

Is that correct Walt!


----------



## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

sc has it right. He's been doing it for more than one season.
I seldom have a full box of capped honey in the upper shallow. They may cap three or four full frames on the fall flow, but any open cells are moved to backfill the broodnest at closeout.

I normally leave the five center frames immediatly above brood in the deep where they are. We are doing this early in the season, with quite a bit of cold weather yet to come. I want the cluster to have good contact with overhead honey, and I have not learned to enjoy feeding bees. When stimulated by incoming pollen, they can grow through those five frames of honey quite quickly.

The other four frames of honey in the lower shallow and any capped honey in the upper shallow can be alternated with empty added comb to make two shallows of CBed for the top.
Any extra capped honey can be placed in outside slots without affecting results. Perhaps I shouldn't have gone into this. It just makes it sound more complicated than it really is.

Walt


----------



## SERGE

*Re: Checkboarding*



wcubed said:


> Don't understand the super storage question.
> I make no claim to being a writer, but I must have really been sloppy in that case.


My apologies, Walt. I am sure it's my misunderstanding.
I was curious if there are exceptions to the one time CB rule (meaning- do some hives ever try to backfill between the CB frames and it has to be CB'd again?
Thanks
Serge


----------



## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

There is almost always a colony somewhere that is a maverick that doesn't play by their own rules. I havn't run across that maverick, Yet.
Walt


----------



## sc-bee

*Re: Checkboarding*

Walt,
I think I ended up with surplus because of the late movement of supers to different hive to equal stores on all. I could have extracted a little late season but didn't fel it was worth the hassle.

Thanks for the explanation of handling the extra supers of stores if you have them. It helps me understand alot. That problem puzzled me this year, I am glad to have clarification.

Steve


----------



## SERGE

*Re: Checkboarding*



wcubed said:


> There is almost always a colony somewhere that is a maverick that doesn't play by their own rules. I havn't run across that maverick, Yet.
> Walt


Good to know! Thank you Walt.


----------



## SERGE

*Re: Checkboarding*

Walt,
What is your opinion about using screened bottom boards and top entrances instead of the standard bottom entrances. Any special recommendations with these when doing the CB method?


----------



## Acebird

*Re: Checkboarding*

Wow, 22 pages is a long read...
I'm a newbee and I didn't reverse my brood boxes this year. I eliminated the bottom one because it was empty because I want to go with all mediums. This was a second year hive and it did not supersede.
What I am having a hard time understanding with the CB method is the claim "doesn't interrupt the brood chamber" especially in the north. If you are going into the top box and manipulating the frames in an full, empty, full, ect arrangement isn't that an interruption of the brood chamber? I can't see a big difference between CB and reversal as a newbee. Both seem to me as giving space for brood expansion.


----------



## DeeAnna

*Re: Checkboarding*

Yeah, 22 pages is a long read, but this post from Walt is the crux of the matter:

"...To prepare for CB in late winter, enough honey must be left in the fall to have *a box of capped honey overhead* [above the brood nest boxes] prior to serious expansion in late winter/ early spring. *CB that one box of honey*, and maintain empty comb at the top the rest of the way. CB is a one-shot deal. Do it once in the early season, and forget it. Just keep up with empty supers...."

All bolding and words in brackets [ ] are mine. 

Reversal is the process of swapping BROOD boxes. Checkerboarding is the process of opening up the HONEY boxes immediately above the brood nest. Yes, both are brood nest management techniques, but reversal disturbs the existing brood nest and CB'ing does not. If I am remembering what I've read in Walt's articles correctly, CB'ing also invites the queen to expand the brood nest upward while reversal does not specifically encourage that expansion. 

--DeeAnna


----------



## Acebird

*Re: Checkboarding*



DeeAnna said:


> Reversal is the process of swapping BROOD boxes. Checkerboarding is the process of opening up the HONEY boxes immediately above the brood nest.


OK thanks for the clarification. I can see where there may be a glitch for us northerners. In real cold weather the brood chamber may go right to the top of the hive seeking warmth. I suspect that the bees are hopeful to get a long enough warm spell to go down and retrieve the honey below and bring it up around the cluster so they don't starve.

If I did this in the early spring or late winter I would be surely messing with brood frames unless my bees are doing something nobody Else's bees are doing.

Next winter I will go through with two mediums on top and one deep on the botttom and see if they do something different in the spring. It will be second season for one hive and third for the other. If they both don't race to the top I might be able to try checkerboarding on one and not the other just for an experiment. Although as I read though this topic checkerboarding is meant more for the third season yet there was a statement many post back that said second season is when they supersede. Maybe I am not remembering correctly.


----------



## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

DeeAnna gets it. Follow her lead.
Have tried upper entry and screened BB. Was not impressed with either. But my drivers are not standard. For me, any extra time or expense must be compensated with increased honey production. Any specialized equipment is a burden on both time and money, and if there is no noticable improvement in production, there is little chance of it becoming permanent.
The management techniques that I promote are oriented to getting the most honey production with the least effort.

Walt


----------



## SERGE

Walt, 
Makes sense. Thanks for sharing.
I run all mediums on my hives and am planning to overwinter my bees in three mediums. To be ready to CB, would it be better to have the two boxes with stores on the bottom and empty frame box on top, or full on the bottom and the two top ones both with five frames of honey frames in the middle? (I run ten frame boxes)
Thanks
Serge


----------



## wcubed

We have no experience with an all-medium config. Your guess is as good as mine.

Walt


----------



## SERGE

Walt,
Are there other times of the year that checherboarding is helpful to use, not necessarily for swarm prevention but as, for example, an aid for quicker build up for winter in the summer or fall?


----------



## Acebird

wcubed said:


> We have no experience with an all-medium config. Your guess is as good as mine.
> 
> Walt


As I understand this method there must be a full box of honey on top. If that is not the case then you can't checkerboard. You have to wait until next season and go through the winter with four boxes (mediums) in the hopes that they will not go up into the fourth box.

It would seem to me that there is a point of diminishing return. You are leaving more honey on the hive through the winter that they don't use. The other thing that concerns me up here is manipulating the hive in the cold season (late winter, early spring). Unless I am still not clear on how this works.


----------



## wcubed

We recommend that you DO NOT use CB at other periods of the season. In the same way that CBing interferes in backfilling during the swarm prep season, at other times the colony needs to backfill as part of their routine population control. In my area, with an extended dearth in midsummer, the broodnest is reduced to limit consumption of accumulated stores. CB really hurts them in the fall. Their preference for storing overhead keeps them from getting the broodnest backfilled for winter. Bad! Bad!

Walt


----------



## minz

New bee here in the Portland Oregon area, still raining here which is odd but other than that it sounds close to the clime of yours (last frost date of April 15th). I see a lot of talk of mediums but in Walt’s writings I see 1 deep and two shallows. I have been getting equipment used from all over since people found out I was bee keeping and have a 10’ stack not in the “yard” at this time. All of it different (MB must be laughing). I am finally getting to my questions: Appears that it is a deep and two shallows that are manipulated for the CB then a huge stack of supers. Is it not possible to extract the supers so that the bees do not have to crawl 6’? Why the tall stacks? Does it matter what size I use for supers? I don’t think that the super size is really any issue or did I miss that? Even at 6’3” I don’t see the point of working above my head. I have had 100% of my hives swarm this year and have suspected it is because of all new plastic F.


----------



## SERGE

I was wondering about this same subject too, Walt. How much does the extra room and hight have to do with room for bees and how much with enough room for the honey?
Thanks
Serge


----------



## wcubed

Valid question. It is almost axiomatic that greater honey production generates taller hives. When you understand the sequence of accumulation it's easy to see that the higher stack is difficult to avoid in a short flow. If we put in some local timing references for CB here:

CB in late Feb. -----Increase brood volume until repro cut off - 2nd week of April.
April 7 +/- *****Generate wax makers for "main flow". New wax May 1.
Main flow -----All of May and sometimes into mid June.

Applying these dates to hive height for overwintered production colonies:
Feb to April 7 ..During this period the colony is growing brood volume and storing raw nectar overhead. The total height may reach 6 feet with at least a couple supers of nectar filled to cell depth provided. 
Apr. 7 to May 1:
This period is dedicated to generating the work force to store winter honey. Wax makers are available at the end of this three weeks to extend cells and cap honey. Nectar processors are also reared to pre-dry nectar. Now they can store honey at efficient rates. We call the end of this period and the start of wax making "Main flow."

During the "lull" of April very little nectar is added at the top. Incoming forage is used primarily to feed the colony. The bulk of the foragers are marking time until the support troops are in place. When the wax makers and driers are ready, the foragers go to work, big time.

Now to hive height: At the beginning of main flow, the CBed colony already has some overhead stored nectar, and brood nest reduction has been in process for 3 weeks. That potential winter honey must be cured, cell depth extended, topped off with predried nectar, and capped. At the same time, the foragers are pouring it in upstairs. The wax workers can't keep up with the needs early in the flow, but they will typically catch up in three or four weeks. I suspect (without a convenient way to verify) that the CB effects contribute to this condition. Permitted to apply their instincts and swarm, the colony would need less wax makers to process resupplied honey, or a smaller percentage of the total population. Blame the problem on the extra honey generated by CB.

The hive height is a function of increased production. There is only a short window late in our flow that would warrant cycling finished supers through extraction and return. If your objective is honey production, you can learn to live with tall hives.

Walt


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## SERGE

Thank you Walt. Very good and interesting info. 
Here in our Maritime Northwest part of Washington state, we can easily get the first pollen from early flowering trees like hazelnuts coming in sometime in February. Last year it was January. Does it make sense that I should CB sometime in January? (the upper temps can reach into the 40s easily in January)? I think the apple blossoms come in similar to your area, in April. We also can get a lot of dandelions in April/May and of course a lot of fruit trees blooming around the same time. We can get a lot of rain still around this time which doesn't help the bees. Our main flow is Blackberry in July. I am hoping that with CB I can take more advantage of the dandelion and fruit tree nectar in April/May. With a later July honey flow, and a little bit different weather/nectar pattern, what do you think I should expect different and do different with the CB method?
Thanks
Serge


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## zippelk

hi all. i read through 23 pages and still have a couple questions. i understand how CB (like reversal) opens up space above the brood nest and prevents swarm-inducing congestion. but i did not see anywhere what is the significance of alternating empty comb with honey comb...why not just empty comb? what about the alternating frames of honey makes this system more effective? or is it that you are just trying to use up the unused overwinter reserves which might otherwise crystallize? also, a question about swarm control in general, if we prevent our colonies from swarming, what prevents them from growing ever larger? are folks here religiously splitting at some point in the year? or does the queen just stop laying more eggs at some point? and what prevents idle bees from wanting to swarm at that point? thanks for helping a noob understand.


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## Michael Bush

>hi all. i read through 23 pages and still have a couple questions. i understand how CB (like reversal) opens up space above the brood nest and prevents swarm-inducing congestion. but i did not see anywhere what is the significance of alternating empty comb with honey comb...why not just empty comb? 

This is being done well before the flow in late winter. They would starve. The idea is to not deprive them of food while creating an illusion of the lack of food.


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## Acebird

> =Michael Bush;686370This is being done well before the flow in late winter. They would starve. The idea is to not deprive them of food while creating an illusion of the lack of food.


That confuses me too. If you create an illusion of the lack of food why would the queen want to increase the brood nest which would require more resources? Spring can be a killer up here. The honey needs to be close by and the brood needs to be concentrated not spread out. Cold nights can do them in if they are all spread out. I think the northern bees have figured this out because they survived. I think if you move bees back and forth (north and south) you always have to move them back and forth and I would suspect at the same times. My guess is if you stop that cycle either way you will loose most of them.


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## zippelk

>"This is being done well before the flow in late winter. They would starve. The idea is to not deprive them of food while creating an illusion of the lack of food."

so there is nothing magical about alternating empty/full frames, one just needs to have some space and some food in some combination. for us yankees, keeping the empty frames somewhat clustered should help keep brood concentrated and warm during our harsh springs. 

>"That confuses me too. If you create an illusion of the lack of food why would the queen want to increase the brood nest which would require more resources? Spring can be a killer up here. The honey needs to be close by and the brood needs to be concentrated not spread out. Cold nights can do them in if they are all spread out. I think the northern bees have figured this out because they survived. I think if you move bees back and forth (north and south) you always have to move them back and forth and I would suspect at the same times. My guess is if you stop that cycle either way you will loose most of them."

so how do you open up a NY broodnest acebird?


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## Acebird

I don't. I think the bees do by eating the honey through to Spring. All I have to do is add supers when the flow comes so they have a place to put it. Does that make sense?


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## zippelk

thanks ace. that does make sense. but i've read on this site (if i understood) that the bees deliberately backfill the 'natural' broodnest below the honey dome to induce a swarm when they think there is a sufficient number of bees to do so. i thought that was the point of checkerboarding and such, to maintain continuous open space adjacent to and above the broodnest to prevent the swarm. anyway, if you don't tweak the broodnest, what if anything do you do for swarm management? thanks


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## Acebird

You are talking to a new beek. That being said I have yet to have that problem. The first year I lost the bees due to moisture in early Spring. They got wet and all died in a pile on the SBB. This last winter was so long the bees barely made it. It was like starting with a package. This year I will leave more honey and based on what I see is left in the Spring I will either throw an empty box on just under the honey or try some form of this checkerboarding. If at least halve of the top box is empty I might do nothing until they fill it in and then just throw the supers on. It is my understanding that if the queen has space to lay brood they won't swarm.


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## Fuzzy

A question for Walt....

If I recall correctly, you and your articles indicate that you overwinter with a minimum of 1 super of honey.
So, at the end of winter, if one were to look at your TOP deep brood box, would we find a layer of capped honey across the center frames 
( Frames 3 thru 7 ) ? Or would we find brood cells all the way to the top bar of the deep ?

If there is no honey across the top of the brood box, that would explain why there is no need to manipulate the brood chamber. There is only capped honey in the super above and by then alternating empty drawn frames this satisifies the bees need for free space. 

Here on the west coast, mild and temperate, most of us do not have a super of honey on for the winter because there is forage year round. However at the end of January, there is always a layer ( 2-3 inches high ) of capped honey across the top of the deep box. 
In order for ME to be successful with nectar managment, I must either substitute empty frames into every other brood slot in the top box, or go thru and scrape out the capped honey on every other frame. I have done just that and it works just fine as long as I add supers before the nectar flow. 

Fuzzy


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## wcubed

Been out of touch for a couple days.
Working backward from Fuzzy's question:
Locally, the overwintered cluster is maybe 5 frames of bees - not necessarily centered in the deep basic brood chamber. We take care in the fall to insure that their deep is backfilled at brood nest close out (sometimes feeding.) Located over feed/nectar, the cluster stays in the deep. When they start building brood in mid winter, they typically expand laterally to fill the deep. With a single shallow of capped honey overhead, they typically open no honey in that shallow and swarm preps/issue all takes place in the single deep. The center deep frames are filled during expansion with brood, bottom to top. end to end. If we don't break up the honey in the shallow, swarming is a lock.

In the double deep, they maintain their capped reserve in the upper part of the upper deep. That makes it tough to stop swarming in the double deep. One of the reasons we shifted away from double deeps. Reversal does get brood above the capped honey reserve, but is time-sensitive. With a group of hives at different stages of brood nest expansion, reversal should be done piecemeal for best results.

Removing cappings on alternate frames meets the basic concept of CB. But it would be easier if you had a super of honey at the top at that point of the season.
Walt


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## Acebird

Brood staying in the bottom up here? I am not buying into that. My concern is even with a full super on top of two deeps they are going to be right at the inner cover in the spring with honey below. Anybody else in the north witness anything different?


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## wcubed

Acebird:
Don't think I said, or implied what happens in NY. The question was about what happens in the Southeast or here. Didn't need to comment about the exchange between NYers. And definately didn't need to be corrected about the northern perspective. I think I understand what happens in more northerly locations. Do you?

At first frost timing, your colonies have substantial brood in the lower deep. Full-time clustering is close at hand. The colony does not have time to fully backfill the brood nest before field forage is frozen out. Here, they normally get it done - a more liesurely transition from mild to cold, but we have seen a few seasons where they needed help by feeding after first frost.

If the broodnest is not backfilled after the brood emerges, the colony is reluctant to winter on empty cells - they need warming fuel underfoot in the cluster. About full time clustering, the cluster relocates into the upper deep on solid capped honey - vacating the empty broodnest in the lower deep. Of course, they will still be there in late winter and the lower deep will be essentially empty. They didn't eat their way up there in early winter. They eat very little in early winter. Consumption of warming fuel makes empty cells to start mid winter brood.

Have only seen this happen in two seasons of 20 here. The first time most colonies had more brood, later than normal, and the second time a fall flow bust caused it. Extrapolating those two seasons to more northerly locations is the basis for my opinion. Hence, "I think I know."

Most northern beekeepers are aware they need to feed in the fall. But feeding in the first frost/freeze period is iffy. It's tougher for them to feed than it is here where the cluster-breaking period lasts a little longer. I doubt that you folks are always successful in getting enough feed into the brood nest to keep the cluster there.

Walt


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## Acebird

I am sure you know way more than I know but I have picked up a few tidbits that make sense to me.
First of all warming fuel (I presume this is honey) is at a much higher consumption rate in the fall and early winter and spring than in late winter. In the fall you have an abundance of bees and next to nothing coming in so somebodies got to get the axe. The drones are the first to go. I don't know what happens if you start feeding because I don't. I think if you feed you always have to because you are creating a condition that normally wouldn't happen. In my area we have a lot of flip flops, frost then warm days, frost, snow and more warm day before the hammer finally hits and then it is snow, snow, snow. In the Adirondacks it is more like a light switch, snap - fall, snap - winter.
I can see where timing would be a problem ... the queen is suppose to stop laying in the fall because she knows winter is coming and there will be too many mouths to feed. I can see in a feral hive that the bees would back fill the brood nest but I don't see why they would do it if there were supers on top with space to store honey. Pulling off the supers and having the top box crammed full of honey would leave just the brood nest for space to put more honey. Maybe that is the reason why some people do that up here. You tell me.


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## sqkcrk

Ace, if you have brood at the top bars and honey below, something went wrong. Maybe the outside frames in the lower box might have honey in them. But, generally, come spring, the bottom boxes are empty. In the North.


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## Acebird

Yes, mine was too but if I keep an extra box of honey on this year and they go to the inner cover there should be something below them even if the bottom box is empty. Either way, if the bottom box is empty what is the need to expand the brood chamber? The queen has all the room she needs to start laying and building up the troops.
Now I plan on pulling my bottom deep out next spring so I can have all mediums. I may be forced to do some type of checkerboarding because the brood nest will be confined with honey on top. But after this one time there shouldn't be a problem. Do you agree?


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## SERGE

wcubed said:


> Been out of touch for a couple days.
> Working backward from Fuzzy's question:...
> Walt


Hello Walt,
Thank you for your patience and for sharing your knowledge. Any input for post #225?
Thanks
Serge


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## wcubed

Sorry SERGE, Other prioities got in the way of backing up. Most recently - eye surgery. Can almost see again in the good eye.
I think you can get some of that early nectar in the supers above the wintering config. All it takes is a box of honey above the brood nest to CB. 
The first experiment with CB was done in December. Was home for Christmas. The results were amazing. One of the fringe benefits of CB is that it is not time sensitive, if done early enough. There is enough honey in the alternated frames to feed the expanding colony, and enough empty comb to encourage storing of nectar overhead. That may not be true everywhere, but it's true here. 

Walt


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## Acebird

wcubed said:


> One of the fringe benefits of CB is that it is not time sensitive, if done early enough.
> Walt


Are you saying it could be done in the fall when you close the hive up for winter?


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## SERGE

Hello Walt,
Glad you are doing better. Thank you for the feedback. We can easily have temperatures reaching 50s on some of our November days. I am also curious about what I can do with checkerboarding in late fall/early winter if temps are right. I guess it's possible that the bees could try to rearange the honey if it's done to early. 

My other question is on the other side of the spectrum- How late in the build-up timeline can checkerboarding be done and still be affective?
Thanks
Serge


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## wcubed

Havn't done it in the fall and declline to speculate. Had one case that surprised me. When CBing, one colony had a medium at the top with capped honey all the way across, except for two empty frames on one side. Didn't have a med of empty comb on the truck. Got back about two weeks later with a medium of empty comb and found them making an end run around their capped honey by way of the 2 empty outside frames.

Often, when the box above the broodnest is only partially filled, they have left their honey barrier perforated and don't need CB. Any open-celled honey is generally moved to the brood nest or consumed in the fall. Generally, the colony is very reluctant to open capped honey except in a dire emergency. In build up,its part of the format.

As for how late to be effective: It needs to be done before they start backfilling the broodnest. The first step of swarm preps. Can't provide a calandar date for areas where am not familiar field forage patterns.

Walt


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## SERGE

Walt, how early does backfilling start in your area?


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## wcubed

Typically mid to late March, but we did have one mild late winter where the vegetation and the bees were more than two weeks ahead of schedule.
Walt


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## SERGE

Hello Walt,
I am planning to overwinter some of my hives in four mediums. I am wondering about the idea of checker boarding two boxes on top and one on the bottom when the time comes. Do you think that doing one box CB on the bottom could be of benefit? Any thoughts or experience with this?
Thanks 
Serge


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## Michael Bush

>Do you think that doing one box CB on the bottom could be of benefit? 

No. I think it's the overhead honey that gives them the impression they shouldn't swarm because they may not have enough stores.


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## wcubed

Check. Thenks MB.
W


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## DRUR

Michael Bush said:


> >Do you think that doing one box CB on the bottom could be of benefit?
> 
> No. I think it's the overhead honey that gives them the impression they shouldn't swarm because they may not have enough stores.


I probably shouldn't weigh in here---*but*--.
I got back into beekeeping March of 2009 after a logging accident.

When I kept bees back in the late 70s mid 80s [Midnites], late winter [mid February][what we actually call early spring here], I would reverse brood boxes, by scraping the sealed honey in the top box, then moving the box below. Hence no honey above the brood nest. All my queens [70s-80s] were marked and I requeened every fall with new Midnite queens [which was probably not a good idea]. I never had a swarm problem and can only remember 1, in 7-8 years of beekeeping, in which I ran 12 to 15 colonies.

I had both medium and deep brood boxes during 2010 [have now converted to all mediums], consequently I experimented by reversing brood boxes where I had a deep and medium on a colony for brood and checkerboarded, where I had all medium brood boxes [which was about equal]. I did this swarm prevention mid february. I only had 1 colony that did *not* swarm. Very frustrating.

But in hindsight, let me say this, at the time I wasn't worried about swarming as swarming had never been a problem for me before. So I did the recommended management procedures, and didn't worry about swarming. After I get everything set in a colony, I try not to disrupt the broodnest. I would only occassionally pull frames from the middle of the brood area until I find eggs and/or young grubs, and then close it up with as little disturbance as possible. This was probably my mistake as I had horrific swarming problems. This year I would often go through the whole brood nest looking for swarm cells; although I don't like doing this because of the greater chance of accidently killing the queen.

I attribute the swarming primarily as a carniolian/russian breed character problem. I have gone now to primary yellow queens and have had no swarm problems this year, both reversing brood boxes and checkerboarding. That being said, we are in a severe drought which I am sure makes a difference.

My queens are now primarily yellow colored survivor queens, Minn. Hyg., and yellow colored VSH queens. I might try some of the dark Caucasions, but otherwise I don't want the darker carniolian and/or russian type queens.

Kindest Regards
Danny


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## SERGE

Michael Bush said:


> >Do you think that doing one box CB on the bottom could be of benefit?
> 
> No. I think it's the overhead honey that gives them the impression they shouldn't swarm because they may not have enough stores.


Thank you for the feedback guys. I understand about the importance of CB overhead. I was thinking though that CBing three boxes on top of the brood may be to many, so I am wondering what it would do if I CB one of the three underneath?


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## Michael Bush

>so I am wondering what it would do if I CB one of the three underneath? 

In my climate it would get left behind and not get consumed and would contribute nothing as far as swarm prevention and as far as winter stores. Overhead, on the other hand would get consumed and contribute to swarm prevention. Assuming they don't starve, IMO it would do nothing. If you are considering that as part of their winter stores, they may starve in a very cold climate. In a more moderate climate it probably wouldn't matter at all as they could move to get to it.


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## SERGE

Hello Walt,
Is there a good, easy way (if there is an easy way) to figure out what the swarm reproductive cutoff approximate date is for my area by just hive observations as a reference, without using the plant bloom schedule, in case it's a little different in my area? 
Thanks
Serge


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## wcubed

SERGE:
There isn't any in-hive indication of repro c/o approaching. But there are several delayed indications that mean it's passed. One is: the colony starts consumption of the overhead capped honey reserve. 2nd is that second year colonies start supersedure cells. A 3rd is that broodnest reduction starts (backfilling.) These indications may start promptly, but it is a week or two before they are obvious on inspection. 

One that is prominent and prompt is the appearence of new wax. The new wax only lasts for a few days and is the result of wax makers purging their holdings - developed to support a swarm. When swarm ambition is canceled, those wax makers have an imminent job change. I suspect that the temporary wax purging gave rise to literature derivation of the term "early flow." After the three week lull new wax makers are available on a sustained basis for the "main flow."

Note that the lull in overhead storage of nectar, itself is a prominent indication that c/o has passed. If you have been successful in getting the colony started in overhead nectar storage, and field nectar is still available, but nectar accumulation in the supers slows to a stop, you are in the lull past repro c/o. This is only relevant to established colonies. 2nd year colonies will often store through the lull.

I suggest you burn 10 bucks and order a manuscript. This stuff is explained in some detail. W. W, Box 10, Elkton, TN, 38455.

Walt


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## SERGE

Good info. Thank you so much, Walt.
-Serge


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## Fuzzy

There is a lot of garbage out there that costs $10 or more. The manuscript is easily worth the price and has significant value if followed.
Walt should open a thread in the For Sale Forum listing the manuscript. In the past many have had difficulty finding out how to obtain a copy.

Merry Christmas to all -- Fuzzy


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## wcubed

Fuzzy, Thanks.


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## Michael Bush

I bought the manuscript. It is some of the best bee knowledge for the money you can buy. Walt has made detailed observations on the sequence of events that leads up to a swarm.


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## David LaFerney

I suspect this is the aforementioned "white wax" The picture was taken on March 4 2011. The hive was strong having over wintered in 2 8 frame medium boxes with "mountain camp" sugar on top. I also started feeding pollen sub in the form of candy about the middle of January. 

This hive did later swarm - despite having been weakened by removing frames of bees/brood from it, and opening the brood area with foundationless frames. 

As you can see, they built the comb - drone sized - up from the frames into the feed shim. I didn't have any extra comb at the time - and even though I knew that swarming was likely I really had no idea what else I could do . Simply adding a super of foundation is somewhat complicated by this method of feeding.


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## Acebird

Fuzzy said:


> In the past many have had difficulty finding out how to obtain a copy.


Is there a link????


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## SERGE

Hello Walt,
I am trying to get my hives geared up for effective checker-boarding for the future seasons. I am looking around for shallow size plastic foundation. Do you use plastic foundation for your shallows? If yes, could you share where I could buy some?
Thanks
-Serge


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## wcubed

SERGE,
Have not used plastic. Can't help you on that one.
Good luck on your search.
Walt


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## AramF

Serge,

They use mediums in a similar fashion to shallows. So if placed under a deep, they will fill it up with pollen.

Aram


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## thenance007

On the checkerboarded boxes, why does it make a difference (or does it?) whether the honey frames in the top box line up directly above each other or each is above an empty drawn wax frame (hence "checkerboarded")?


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## wcubed

007
No magic in the diagonal placement of frames. It's just a functon of 9 frame boxes. Odd number. With 10 frame boxes, honey frames can be one over another.

Walt


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## squarepeg

if that is the case walt, and you only have one half super with honey in the spring, could you not just alternate the frames in that one super?


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## wcubed

Don't have a positive answer for that question. Havn't tried it. It works with a deep when empty comb added above. But I have a hunch that there is some relationship between the comb with brood at the top of the broodnest and the distance to the top of the capped honey reserve. Colonies seem to see the top of the capped honey as the top of their cavity. In a deep and shallow, where the shallow is full of capped honey, they draw the line at the interbar space and don't even open any honey in the top shallow. (field forage supporting)

On the other hand, in the double deep, the arc of brood nest expansion in the upper reaches to within an inch or so of the topbar. Their reserve of about a shallow supers worth of capped honey is in the shoulders of the dome in the upper deep. The expansion arc in both directions leaves quite of bit of room in the box corners.

The whole objective of CB is to get the colony started storing nectar overhead. Based on what happens in the deep and shallow, I would not expect a single box of alternated frames of empty/honey to get it done. Still waffling. But if they fill the empty frames with nectar, it could work well with empty comb above.

Guessing - no guarentees.
Walt


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## squarepeg

understood walt, thanks for the reply.


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## thenance007

Thanks, Walt
So you use 9 frames in the checkerboard boxes? I wondered about the multipurpose "rooms" since it is used for honey and brood, especially since I do small cell. I guess that the wider spacing will allow them to use the small cell for honey storage when they are done using it for brood? I have about half large cell from honey storage and half small cell from brood nest in my checkerboard boxes. Or do I need to pull the small cell and replace with foundation when they start shrinking the brood nest?


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## wcubed

I use 9 frame from the bottom board to the cover. It speeds up brood nest inspection for me and is strictly for my convenience. We lose brood cell count per unit volume of cluster in late winter, but the colony makes up for it as the spring season advances. CB speeds upward expansion by having less extended cells of honey to consume. The folks who contend that a deep and medium is all the brood space needed by a good queen, have not seen CB at work. We often have a deep and four shallows of brood before main flow. Need I point out that's more than a double deep - even allowing for one less frame per box.?

Have not used small cell comb, but see no problem with mixing with other cell sizes. Cells used for brood will trimmed to brood-rearing depth, and later extended for honey storage. Whichever adjustment in cell depth is in work, adjacent, frame to frame cells will be in work at essentially the same time. This should make things come out fairly neat.

Will be talking CB sunday at NABA. Advance and be recognized.
Walt


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## thenance007

I'll be there! We sat outside and chatted about cb before the last meeting. Can't wait to hear your presentation!


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## David LaFerney

Mr Wright, 

I'm sure that I am not alone in this situation - I have some empty drawn comb, but because I didn't prepare last year to try checkerboard I don't have 2 full boxes of capped honey on top of my hives. 

In an earlier reply you said *"The whole objective of CB is to get the colony started storing nectar overhead." * Which got me thinking (a dangerous thing) - it is quite easy to fill empty comb with syrup - is there any reason why it would be a fruitless experiment to checkerboard with combs filled with heavy syrup? I would guess that one should watch the weather and try this when there is a prediction for several days of fair weather, but it seems like the presence artificial nectar filled combs above the brood nest might work to get them storing nectar in that area?


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## wcubed

David,
Another "don't know". When I had a workable system, there was little incentive to push it in all directions to find the limits of reliability. I used what worked well, while studying colony internal operational format, looking for clues to the timing of repro cut off.

One thing not mentioned in the above reply was that with 2 supers of CBed comb/honey, the cluster enfolds the empty comb of the lower super before reaching the line between supers where they would normally stop expansion. They can't stand empty cells within the warmed cluster area and start filling those cells with nectar. As the insulation band at the top of the cluster slides upward with population growth, they continue to add nectar inside the insulation band. In my area, with good field forage in that period, nectar accumulation outruns broodnest growth. Typically, a couple of supers of nectar in what would be the brood nest reduction period of swarm preps. A signficant boost to production.

Back to the question: I believe that filling comb with sugar water would serve the purpose.
Nobody knows what bees think, or even if they DO think. In most other comb usage considerations they treat nectar and honey the same, and they treat s/w the same as nectar. I would use two boxes for the added distance between the top of the broodnest and the top of the sugar water.

Locally, we do not need to use two supers for overwintering. One would be enough, but the colony would meet swarm requirements in the deep. We leave the extra shallow of honey to encourage expansion out of the deep (like the double deep) and for the off-normal season where we might need to feed in the spring, or have brood in the first super - making it unsuitable for CB. This mild winter may be one of those off-normal seasons. We CBed early this year.

Sorry. Had some time to kill.
Walt


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## David LaFerney

Thanks, I think I might try it on a few hives.


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## minz

I have been making my own gear and the mediums are very close to the size of the lumber I buy. I built them to make shallows and just could not justify cutting off and throwing away the extra. Now maybe if I needed and inner cover I would have put my material into the bottom (like a box) and when I cut it off I would have a shallow and an inner cover. I have not been at it very long but that “one size for everything” has really been looking better and better. 
Walt, you stated that you already Cbed? Although the PNW here is one of the few areas running 10 degrees below average in the country (at least that was what the weather map looked like at the world news the other night). I seem to remember you based the CB on apple bloom correct? I think I marked end of month for my CB but I do not remember the math (final frost – 8 weeks and time to start tomatos indoors here).


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## wcubed

mins,
The timing is based on preceding the start of backfilling. That starts about mid Mar and we want to be early enough to precede the strongest. So, we CB toward the end of Feb. In this mild winter, the vegetation is ahead of schedule and the bees will be ahead of schedule accordingly. Since you are working above the brood nest in overhead capped honey, it's almost impossible to do it too early. With at least a couple days of hive opening temps every week, all winter, it was convenient to move the CB forward to early Feb.

If your temps continue to run colder than norm, you will have a retarded time line. A couple of reference points for a normal season:
9 weeks prior to new wax of main flow.
5 weeks prior to the START of apple bloom. (with Rome in the mix, apples can bloom almost 4 weeks - Rome trailing)

Walt


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## minz

Thanks Walt, my record shows last year the crabapples were blooming hard just as the Gravenstien was coming into bloom on May 5. Since I use the crabapples to pollinate the Gravenstien I recorded the overlap. Liberty was also just starting but the log entry showed the cherries were in full bloom by then. We had about 4 hours of flying weather here on Sunday and the girls were coming in with white pollen. About the only thing going on now are hazelnuts (wind pollinated nut trees) going hard. I will do some homework and see if bees can use it. I need more drawn comb.


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## Arkansas Beekeeper

What do you mean 4th box? How are you wintering?


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## wcubed

A R,
If that 4 th box question was directed to me, I do winter in 4, but am not going to look for the reference in the above. The bottom shallow is empty - last fall's pollen box. A deep basic brood chamber, and 2 shallows of capped honey at the top.

CBed a couple weeks ago. Config. now: Deep of brood on the bottom board, shallow of capped honey above the deep, and two shallows of CBed honey/empty at the top. Last year's empty pollen box at the bottom was CBed with the top shallow of capped honey. When the shallow above the deep is filled with brood, it willl be moved below the deep to generate this year's pollen box. Then,we just need to keep empty comb at the top and watch em grow.

Walt


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## Supertad

Hopefully a handful of beeks are around, weather has been nice. CB help...

First, my location is Huntsville, Alabama. I hive (2) second year hives and one (1) captured swarm hive from the original(s).

To date, all seem to be on task. The two original colonies are in one deep (bottom) and one medium (top). The smaller hive is in two (2) mediums.

I have not yet inspected below the top mediums of any of the hives. Currently feeding dry sugar.

All hives are pretty much filling the top medium(s). Hoping this indicates the girls have moved the brood chamber up. If so, can I reverse boxes, then start my checkerboard with the deep?

This raises another query for advice. My goal is to transition out of the deep. I could speculate on how that might take place but likely to no end. Please, any beek that's made the switch or advice is duly appreciated. I have the drawn comb on medium frames to CB but no deep.

Of course the most important question. Is it time to checkerboard, or am I too late? Or, should I just double up on the swarm traps. ;-)

Thanks.


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## wcubed

Supertad,
You are rapidly approaching too late, or late enough to impair the reliability. Your schedule is 2 weeks ahead of mine and the season is advanced by a mild winter. I would normally be CBing between now and the end of Feb, but moved forward for the advanced season.

Don't usually offer work-arounds, but will make an exception here. It may help someone else. If you can rationalize staying with the deep for another season, hope that at least one of the top boxes is full of capped honey. Ours had not expanded out of the deep as of last week.

For any of the 3 that has a full box of honey at the top, you can CB that box with a box of drawn comb and add drawn above. You will not likely have enough drawn comb to keep them in empty comb through the swarm prep period, unless you reserve it all for one hive. (will take maybe 3)

If one of the larger (D + M) has very little brood in the lower edge of the Med, it can be treated as above. It will not hurt that colony much this early in the season to sacrifice a small amount of brood to chilling.

The 2 M unit will likely have substantial brood in both boxes. If you are a gambler, you might try reversal and adding foundation at the top. 2nd year colonies will sometimes start early wax making if the colony is convinced they didn't meet full establishment requirements in the first season. This slight of hand needs to be done quite early. Now is good.
Reversal, with brood to the top bar, puts the insulating band standing on the foundation. Sometimes that gets their attention.
No guarantees.
Walt


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## Supertad

"This slight of hand needs to done quite early. Now is good."

Thank you Walt. Was hoping you'd have the time to chime in. Once the weather clears a bit today I will try for the slight of hand. No worries about staying in the deep one more season.

These girls are strong swarmers so hopefully I can slow them a bit. Thanks again Walt.
-Ricky


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## wcubed

Reflecting on the question and answer above over a bedtime snack, came up with a couple other actions to stretch the available drawn comb.

With 4 mediums filled, you should have at least 8 frames of honey in outside frames - maybe more. With those 8, you could get almost 2 boxes of alternate comb (CBed). Colonies generally do not open the outside frames of honey at the sides of the broodnest during the build up. They are recycled just before main flow with this year's nectar. Field nectar is now available, and replacing those frames with foundation would not hurt them. They will be growing into overhead honey.

Secondly, it is not necessary to CB a whole box of honey to get the desired effect. 3 alternate frames of honey above the active brood frames replaced with empty comb is good enough.

There might also be an advantage in going into the buildup with foundation in all outside frames of the mediums. It could contribute to the perception that full establishment was not achieved in the first year - leading to the early wax making of second year colonies.

When you find out what you have - Wing it.
Walt


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## SERGE

For those looking for shallow plastic foundation to incorporate into there checkerboarding, I found out that Mann Lake is starting to carry their rite cell, food grade plastic foundation in the shallow 4 3/4 size. Like their other right cell, with the option of waxed or unwaxed. 
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=page20


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## David LaFerney

wcubed said:


> Reflecting on the question and answer above ... With those 8, you could get almost 2 boxes of alternate comb (CBed)...
> 
> Secondly, it is not necessary to CB a whole box of honey to get the desired effect. 3 alternate frames of honey above the active brood frames replaced with empty comb is good enough...
> 
> When you find out what you have - Wing it.
> Walt


I'm glad to hear your opinions to that effect, because that is what I've already done on my strongest hives. Not having really planned ahead last year on CBing this spring - I didn't really think I would have enough honey to do it. But by rearranging frames of new nectar, existing stores, and robbing a bit from weaker hives - it's worked out. And when I checked back a week or so later the brood nest had extended up into the CB area already, and they are storing new nectar above the old brood nest. So far, so good I guess. I do have empty comb to work with fortunately.


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## wcubed

David,
It's working. Watch 'em grow. Just try to not let them fill the hive to top.
Walt


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## USCBeeMan

Hey Walt, what's up.

Just as another thought on CBing. Last year I robbed some of my hives several times. Any completely CH frames were removed (and a few on occasion that may have had some UCH on the frames). A lot of times I have found that they would have several supers with 100% CH Frames mixed with frames of CH/H/Brood and/or CH/H/Pollen. After all frames were removed for harvesting, I would CB what was left with frames of full comb. Any frames with brood were either put together or placed at the same slot one above the other if more than one super was harvested.

BTW, I have found it best when CBing to use frames of comb that have had some brood in them previously. The bees will fill up these frames before any others. As an example: If you put in 5 frames of comb during CBing and 2 previously had 25% brood, 2 had 60% brood and 1 had 10% brood. Then when they started working those frames they would fill in 2 of them with 25% honey, 2 of them with 60% honey and 1 of them with 10% honey prior to even working any frames of previously used honey comb or foundation.


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## squarepeg

i am having similar success so far with alternating frames of honey and empty comb in one medium over one deep of brood. the bees are currently expanding the brood nest into the medium. 

the cluster size will soon be filling both boxes, and i'll be adding a second medium, in which i'll try putting drawn comb in the middle with some foundation to the outside.

no new wax here yet walt, even in the overwintered nucs. and the apple trees are starting to get buds on them.


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## wcubed

Ken,
Can't say I noticed those things, But I had plenty of frames of drawn comb when I started. Had sold off 70 colonies to concentrate on the effects of CB. The two things I do remember were:
A band of open/empty cells from the bottom bar to the top bar on a frame of capped honey was just as effective as a full frame of empty comb. Never tried it though with a band of open cells less than 2 or 3 inches wide. And
They would not use empty comb less than brood-rearing depth. Would not even store nectar in cells too shallow for brood rearing. Too-short cells would leave an unused area in either brood or accumulated nectar.

Walt


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## wcubed

squarepeg,
Add some drawn comb at the top - no later than yesterday. They can still swarm if the hive fills up.
Walt


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## Intheswamp

Wow!!!! Just finished reading this thread. Very interesting. Just got through hiving my fourth swarm from my 3-hive yard (ok, so I had to re-hive a swarm that absconded on me). 

Now to work this out for an all 8-frame medium setup...

Thanks for all the information, Walt and everybody else!!!
Ed


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## Intheswamp

*Re: Checkboarding*



NeilV said:


> "I use 3 medium supers for my brood boxes"
> 
> I have one hive that is set up with all mediums. On it, I overwintered in four mediums. There was not a whole lot in the top box going into winter. I then checkerboarded the top 2 mediums. It worked fine. Actually it was my best hive as far as honey production goes last year. I've got it set up to do it again this year. This year I've got more drawn comb to work with so I'm hopeful.


Ok, browsing back through this thread for the second time...I'm a slow learner. 

Neil, I am working with all 8-frame mediums (well, except for a 10-frame deep that I will be moving bees out of). Have you any more advice for checkerboarding using all mediums? How has checkerboarding and using all medium boxes worked for you since your post from 2009?

Thanks,
Ed


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## squarepeg

*Re: Checkboarding*

i would say even better ed that you have all mediums. that way you can keep things 'open' above (checkerboarding) and in the broodnest (opening the broodnest). did you get a chance to read walt's manuscript? if yes, then you will know what to watch for and when, and you can always split if swarm preps get too far along. 

did you try any manipulations at all last year? you are well to the south of me, so i would think that you will have swarming earlier in the season than i do. last year was late march to early may.


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## thenance007

*Re: Checkboarding*

ITS,
Not Neil but I checkerboarded my all 8 frame medium hive on Jan. 22 last year (Nashville) and it worked well. Just pulled the empty box from the bottom and alternated the empty comb frames with the full top (4th) box and put both on top. No swarming. I only did it that early because I had a 60 degree day and decided to take advantage of it, but given that everything happened 3 weeks early, I think it was actually about right--have heard several who checkerboarded later and had swarms. Given that you are South of me, I would think that you ought to do it any time now.


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## Intheswamp

*Re: Checkboarding*

Howdy squarepeg. I didn't do much manipulation last year as I was starting out without any drawn comb. I was mostly chasing swarms from my 3 colonies (all swarmed) in the early spring. Looks like my first swarm issued on April 2nd. I actually had two that issued back-to-back...I was watching the last bees from the 1st swarm land in the briar patch when I heard something over to my right...the second swarm. As a newbee I was about to begin my trial by fire!  



I ended up with the three weakened colonies and two "new" colonies from swarming...I think I possibly missed a swarm or to, also. As a newbee I fed, fed, fed, till they wouldn't take anymore...yeah, right. 

Anyhow, the only thing that could be considered a manipulation was that I put bottom supered the only hive that looked like it was going to make a crop. All I had was foundation. That colony made 75# of honey for me...basically the only honey I got last year...I think that was a situation of "a blind hog even finds an acorn once in a while". Certainly not due to my prowess as a beekeeper!

I have read off and on in Walt's manuscript and some of the pdf's posted here on Beesource. One thing that throws me is an early mention of using shallows on top and bottom of the deep. It seems, too, that someone mentioned that if you're not going to follow the method right (speaking of the shallows) that it's not going to work correctly. I'm seriously looking at just checkerboarding above the brood to give them open avenues to room above. I've got three hives going into spring and I'd love to get 75# off each of them this year! I may go ahead with one of them as it seems to be packed with bees and plenty of honey left...I could open that up easily by checkerboarding.

It will have to wait probably until next week, though, this weekend I'll be heading to Auburn.

I've been studying over some of Michael Bush's writings on splits. I definitely want start a nuc or two from the hive that produced my honey last year. The bees are just a bit on the hot side but they certainly made the honey.

Ed


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## Intheswamp

*Re: Checkboarding*

007, thanks for the feedback. Yes, I think I need to be doing something now, but will be a week before I can. Maybe I can squeeze in a little bee time this Sunday afternoon....predicted high of 62, mostly sunny, and breezy. Hmm, it's a thought!

I understand where you're coming from about the season coming early last year and possibly this year. The bees have been bringing in some pollen *and* some nectar from somewhere...my mentor has also noted this. This seems to go along with what Walt has said about there being something like a mini-flow before the main flow...and the bees use it to help build up on. But, I'm just a second year newbee who's been stretched thin here lately and having to refresh himself on stuff he thought he already had learned.<sigh>

Ok, so Sunday afternoon if the weather is nice I will most likely do some manipulations. 

Thanks again for the feedback,
Ed


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## squarepeg

*Re: Checkboarding*

thanks ed, i really enjoyed your video and photos.

i talked to walt and he said that the checkerboarding concept should work ok with mediums instead of shallows. the one on the bottom is brought up to the top this time of year and 'checkerboarded' with the one that overwintered on top. mostly you don't want solid honey above the broodnest.

having the drawn comb is the key, and i was in the same boat last year in not having much. i managed to catch three swarms and let the rest go into the woods, hopefully to become feral survivors.

the only hive i had last year that did not swarm was the one i had enough drawn comb to checkerboard, and that was done in early february. 

if the redbuds and dogwoods haven't bloomed yet, you should still have time.

what i would look for in terms of early swarm preps, is the lack of a band of open and polished cells between the brood and the nectar above the brood. walt has an illustration of this in his manuscript, and if you find them putting nectar there they have stopped expanding and begun reducing the broodnest. they are definitely getting close to swarming if you find backfilling in the broodnest.

as far as splits, i had really good results using the 'cut down split' as described on mike bush's website. i harvested honey off of both the parent hive and the split last year. that split was done it late march with just three frames and no feeding!

good luck ed.


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## cemoka

*Re: Checkboarding*

I don't have enough honey frames for checkerboarding. Is it possible to fill the empty combs with syrup, instead of giving honey frames ??? Thanks....


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## wcubed

*Re: Checkboarding*

cemoka,
Saw your question, but was on the road in Ohio at the time.
Can not give you a positive answer because we have not tried it, but my guess is that syrup above their capped honey would be treated as feed and not get the desired effect. We often comb feed at the top, and that syrup is readily moved down to the broodnest for their purposes.

Keep in mind that the colony seems to work to the top of their CAPPED honey as if it were the top of their residence cavity. Empty comb or foundation above is easily ignored.

It might be worth a trial - if only on a sample basis. I've been wrong on guesses before.
Walt


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