# Thermosolar Hive – Kills 100% Of Varroa Mites



## Talking With Bees (Jul 7, 2012)

I have just written about the very new and potentially very exciting Thermosolar Hive which very convincingly claims to kill 100% of varroa mites without any chemicals. I have had a few emails with the inventor and he is responding to comments on my blog. I would be very grateful for the thoughts of people on this forum.

Is this the most significant innovation in beekeeping in the last 10-20 years?


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## pinkpantherbeekeeper (Feb 10, 2016)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?325141-Thermosolar-Hive-the-new-silver-bullet

Already being discussed I believe


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

"I am from Missouri!"


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

If only you put a spigot at the bottom of the thermosolar hive like at the flow hive, we could have all that molten wax come right out too!


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Then there is Gasoline.


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## BeerKeeper (Mar 21, 2016)

Do you mind if I advertise my website in your blog's comments?


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

From what I have been told since I live in Central Texas is that it's wise to have partial shade for the bee hives. So, I asked why. The reason is that the temperature gets hot and leads to the wax/honey melting and running out of the hive. The queen if she gets caught up in it might actually die. So I have sun sail shade cloth that is triangle 16ft x 16ft x 16ft that is crossed over each other on 1 end. When the bees begin to beard on a regular basis I put up the sun shade cloth. They get about 50% sun during the day or less. 
I am no expert, but have just 1 thing about raising the temp of a bee hive like that. The only time you'd want to do that is after the honey supers or medium is off the bee hives and previous to the spring build up. People on here have already commented about the wax melting and honey dripping out of the hives. WHY? Cause people right now only have honey on the brain. Had this article come out in the fall or winter. Sure people would be more receptive to it and more positive comments. 
Verroa as we know kill more hives during the Fall and the build up of Spring, so logically this will work as long as your focus isn't Honey and you got a bunch of it in the bee hive. This company is doing something about it. Personally I rather just have everyone buy VHS queens and not do so much investing in the Oxilic Acid and other stuff. The solution is already here. Get bees that are naturally taking care of the problem. You build a better bee not a better home.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

frustrateddrone said:


> From what I have been told since I live in Central Texas is that it's wise to have partial shade for the bee hives. So, I asked why. The reason is that the temperature gets hot and leads to the wax/honey melting and running out of the hive. The queen if she gets caught up in it might actually die.


So if I can make a comparison, does this imply that you don't have mites in TX since the heat kills them all? The solar hive is a nice thought, but I'll bet keepers in FL, TX, CA would agree they still have mites despite the heat.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I don't see heat affecting the mites here, and I get a fair amount of comb collapse on the days it's over 100, hives full sun all day. Now, I can't say how hot it's getting in the hives or for how long though. I'm not going to guess how this hive works, does it heat faster than the bees can cool it off and what if the bees have limited access to water, is there a control to keep heat from building past lethal levels for the bee? Looks like you don't use it on super hot days and need to shade the windows as well. Treatment is for two hours, I don't usually hang around that long but for a backyard hive, I guess it's feasible. For the cost, I don't see how any operation of scale could afford it, and I'm betting moving them around the panels on the bodies could get broken a lot. I guess I need some data loggers to see how warm standard hives get on 100+ days.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

frustrateddrone said:


> Personally I rather just have everyone buy VHS queens and not do so much investing in the Oxilic Acid and other stuff. The solution is already here. Get bees that are naturally taking care of the problem. You build a better bee not a better home.


I think this is wisdom! Let the bees take care of the issue. We can't manage away mites without costing us time, chemicals, more special equipment. If the bees do it themselves, nothing extra to buy, less worry, less time spent on this issue.


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## BeeHoosier (Feb 21, 2016)

I agree with frustrateddrone also, it seems like the chemicals we use to treat mites only ends up selecting mites that are resistant to the chemicals. We have to keep switching up treatments in order to keep up with the resistance that is being built up by the mites. In essence we are just making the problems worse or postponing the eventual solution by throwing chemicals in the hives. Overall the bees should be able to deal with the mites, the problem is that it will take time and there will be large colony losses as this times passes. Natural swarming, avoiding crowding way too many hives in a small area, natural genetics, etc would certainly help, but the problem then becomes the fact that nobody (especially large operations)wants to lose numerous hives as this adaptation of the bees takes place. I don't know if this thermosolar hive is an answer to the problem, but I love the fact that people are trying to solve a problem without simply throwing chemicals on the hive.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

DrJeseuss said:


> I think this is wisdom! Let the bees take care of the issue. We can't manage away mites without costing us time, chemicals, more special equipment. If the bees do it themselves, nothing extra to buy, less worry, less time spent on this issue.


Indeed it sounds good. Let me know how that works out for you for the next few years.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

frustrateddrone said:


> Personally I rather just have everyone buy VHS queens and not do so much investing in the Oxilic Acid and other stuff. The solution is already here.


OA is the solution and a way cheaper investment than buying expensive VHS queens.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

John Harbo published a paper many years ago on this approach.

Worth reading ... https://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFil...1-400/384-Harbo--Heating Adult Honey Bees.pdf

Another paper from 2015 has details on the entrepeneurial development of these methods in Europe.
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...nst_varroa/links/56e7468708ae4cbe4d42d699.pdf


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

D Coates said:


> Indeed it sounds good. Let me know how that works out for you for the next few years.


I'll do just that. I recently got a biter queen. They cull cells infested as bah does but also groom mites off and chew their legs off. I got her for about the price of a bag of OA and a mask, far less than my vaporizer. These may not be ready for fully treatment free, but its a big step in the right direction. Now to see if they work. Lol


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> I don't see heat affecting the mites here, and I get a fair amount of comb collapse on the days it's over 100, hives full sun all day. Now, I can't say how hot it's getting in the hives or for how long though. I'm not going to guess how this hive works, does it heat faster than the bees can cool it off and what if the bees have limited access to water, is there a control to keep heat from building past lethal levels for the bee? Looks like you don't use it on super hot days and need to shade the windows as well. Treatment is for two hours, I don't usually hang around that long but for a backyard hive, I guess it's feasible. For the cost, I don't see how any operation of scale could afford it, and I'm betting moving them around the panels on the bodies could get broken a lot. I guess I need some data loggers to see how warm standard hives get on 100+ days.


Are you using migratory covers?


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## Talking With Bees (Jul 7, 2012)

Thanks for thoughts and links, especially on the high temperatures effecting brood. I read the other thread that had discussed this hive as well - thanks for that link.

I emailed the Thermosolar Hive team for their thoughts on high temperatures harming the brood and this is their response (I have emailed them a follow-up question re 100F+ temps in Texas):

I have read the same article you emailed me some time ago and have a knowledge of other similar themes. In the paper you sent, strong and long-term deviations from the normal brood rearing temperatures are what is damaging the brood. In the paper, the brood was at the higher temperature for 24 hours per day, day-by-day of its rearing. The Thermosolar Hive thermally supports the colony and this can raise the temperature to 36-38ºC on hot, sunny summer days. However, this temperature is maintained for only a few hours per day, usually about 2 to 5 hours. And not every day – it can be cloudy or outside temperatures can be lower to achieve this. So in normal summer in England, it can be in average 2 or 3 days per week, so lets say approximately 4 to 15 hours per week. This is a huge difference if compared with 168 hours per week in laboratory. This slightly higher brood temperature a few times per week damage the varroa mites and disable their reproduction. That is why there are no mites at the end of summer in most of the hives even without the 2 hour thermotherapy treatments at 40-47C. If we talk only about the thermotherapy treatments, it is done only 2 (or optionally 4) times per year and higher temperatures are maintained only for few hours. Another important point during thermotherapy is humidity. Humidity is much lower than normal. It is the same effect as if you go to sauna. There can be temperatures even higher than 100ºC and you can enjoy it. Humidity is the key, because there is a very low humidity in the sauna. If the humidity would be high, you can’t survive 100ºC. It is the same with our thermotherapy: short term heating with low humidity is without problem. Young house bees stay on the brood at temperatures between 40-47ºC, because they don’t have hardened cuticle and can cool themselves as we do in sauna. The rest of the bees with hardened cuticle is in lower parts of the hive with lower temperatures. However, practice is the most important for us. We and beekeepers who use the hive know that the brood is not damaged and the bees in Thermosolar hives are very strong and have higher honey yields. This is probably the best answer from practice. If the hive would damage the brood, the opposite would be true.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

This is a typical comment from another know it all new beekeeper. 
Varroa can't become resistant to OA or FA. If they could then they would, just as easily I suppose, become resistant to the high Temps of the thermosolar treatment. 
Maybe people that are "throwing chemicals" are actually saving their bees from being killed by varroa. Your reply makes it sound like people are indiscriminately flooding their hives with bad chemicals because it's easy to do. 



BeeHoosier said:


> I agree with frustrateddrone also, it seems like the chemicals we use to treat mites only ends up selecting mites that are resistant to the chemicals. We have to keep switching up treatments in order to keep up with the resistance that is being built up by the mites. In essence we are just making the problems worse or postponing the eventual solution by throwing chemicals in the hives. Overall the bees should be able to deal with the mites, the problem is that it will take time and there will be large colony losses as this times passes. Natural swarming, avoiding crowding way too many hives in a small area, natural genetics, etc would certainly help, but the problem then becomes the fact that nobody (especially large operations)wants to lose numerous hives as this adaptation of the bees takes place. I don't know if this thermosolar hive is an answer to the problem, but I love the fact that people are trying to solve a problem without simply throwing chemicals on the hive.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

challenger said:


> ...Varroa can't become resistant to OA or FA. If they could then they would, just as easily I suppose, become resistant to the high Temps of the thermosolar treatment. ....


 I am sorry, but you speaking nonsense: 1) varroa eventyally will become resistant to any chemical treatment, it is just matter of time and stupidity of beekeepers (nothing personal), who underdose or use incorrect protocol provoking resistance; 2) physical treatment like elevated temperature also can induce resistance but less likely because this physical treatment is not compatible with life (of varroa). Thermal treatment used in Russia for 40+ years and there is no resistance so far - read books. Note, that in the same period of time 10th if not more chemicals become useless in fight with varroa. Similarly, there are bacteria, which is resistant to ALL antibiotics, but gamma-rays (physical treatment) will kill and there is no resistance to it...


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## Talking With Bees (Jul 7, 2012)

A university research paper will be out later this year on this hive. That will give us more data.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

cerezha said:


> I am sorry, but you speaking nonsense: 1) varroa eventyally will become resistant to any chemical treatment, it is just matter of time and stupidity of beekeepers (nothing personal), who underdose or use incorrect protocol provoking resistance; 2) physical treatment like elevated temperature also can induce resistance but less likely because this physical treatment is not compatible with life (of varroa). Thermal treatment used in Russia for 40+ years and there is no resistance so far - read books. Note, that in the same period of time 10th if not more chemicals become useless in fight with varroa. Similarly, there are bacteria, which is resistant to ALL antibiotics, but gamma-rays (physical treatment) will kill and there is no resistance to it...


OAV is a physical treatment. The OA damages the mites by contact, not ingestion or inhalation. OA dribble would be a different story.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

cerezha said:


> I am sorry, but you speaking nonsense: 1) varroa eventyally will become resistant to any chemical treatment, it is just matter of time and stupidity of beekeepers (nothing personal), who underdose or use incorrect protocol provoking resistance; 2) physical treatment like elevated temperature also can induce resistance but less likely because this physical treatment is not compatible with life (of varroa). Thermal treatment used in Russia for 40+ years and there is no resistance so far - read books. Note, that in the same period of time 10th if not more chemicals become useless in fight with varroa. Similarly, there are bacteria, which is resistant to ALL antibiotics, but gamma-rays (physical treatment) will kill and there is no resistance to it...


What's up Серёга!

I have never heard of Russian beekeepers using thermal treatments. Can you point me to some information that supports this? I have been under the impression, or maybe ignorance, that Russian beekeepers haven't faced as much of a varroa problem because the Russian bees are naturally resistant to them.

The only thermal treatment I know that the Russians might have is their thick-walled hives that insulate the hives from extremes of temperatures.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Talking With Bees said:


> A university research paper will be out later this year on this hive. That will give us more data.


It's a wonder what a little grant money from a "sponsor" can do to sway a graduate student in the "needed" direction.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

cerezha said:


> I am sorry, but you speaking nonsense: 1) varroa eventyally will become resistant to any chemical treatment, it is just matter of time and stupidity of beekeepers (nothing personal), who underdose or use incorrect protocol provoking resistance;.


Typical nonsense spouted by people who know nothing about development of resistance nor the many cases of long term use of pesticides without resistance showing up. This statement also shows an ignorance on treatment methods to reduce the chance of resistance by claiming underdoses are bad. That may, or may not be true and any blanket statement like this person made is simply ignorance of science. You can spot such people fairly easy. They hide their real name because they know they just have a political agenda and do not know the science.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

challenger said:


> ... Your reply makes it sound like people are indiscriminately flooding their hives with bad chemicals because it's easy to do.


 Unfortunately true - I stop visiting our bee-group and associated bee-class because they were all about chemical treatment: "rise your hand, who did not treat yet? You must treat!" This is my personal experience.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

ABK said:


> ...I have never heard of Russian beekeepers using thermal treatments. ..


 They are using so called "thermocamera" for decades. You can search using "термообработка пчёлы." There are huge thread about thermo-treatment on Russian bee-forum. There are lectures (18hr) Кашковского В.Г. (highly recommended!) - he addresses thermo-treatment as well. There are many-many videos on youtube also.
Кто ищет тот всегда найдёт! Good luck!


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

DrJeseuss said:


> OAV is a physical treatment. The OA damages the mites by contact, not ingestion or inhalation. OA dribble would be a different story.


Agree! It is advantage.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Richard Cryberg said:


> .... people who know nothing about development of resistance ...


 Oh, not AGAIN! We had this battle many times at Beesource! Treatment vs non-treatment, please ...


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

ABK said:


> ... I have been under the impression, or maybe ignorance, that Russian beekeepers haven't faced as much of a varroa problem because the Russian bees are naturally resistant to them...


 It is my impression based mainly on communication with Russian (and Ukranian) beekeepers via bee-forums, that varroa situation in Russia is getting worse. They have 10-20% loses, which look small in comparison to 50% in US, but it is severe by their standard when normal loss is 1-2%. Popular chemical (bipin) is not working well due varroa resistance, so "termocamera" is coming back.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

opcorn:


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

cerezha said:


> I am sorry, but you speaking nonsense: 1) varroa eventyally will become resistant to any chemical treatment, it is just matter of time and stupidity of beekeepers (nothing personal), who underdose or use incorrect protocol provoking resistance; 2) physical treatment like elevated temperature also can induce resistance but less likely because this physical treatment is not compatible with life (of varroa). Thermal treatment used in Russia for 40+ years and there is no resistance so far - read books. Note, that in the same period of time 10th if not more chemicals become useless in fight with varroa. Similarly, there are bacteria, which is resistant to ALL antibiotics, but gamma-rays (physical treatment) will kill and there is no resistance to it...


Please site examples of how varroa can become resistant to acids? Acids are not a chemical treatment in the same context as other mite treatments. I believe acids will not fall into the category of treatments that can lead to chemical resistance in mite-sorry. The acids have an impact on the phoretic mites and the male mite in the brood in a mechanical nature much the same way that higher than tolerable temperatures do.
Your expertise is very apparent to you but I need convincing.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

challenger said:


> ... I need convincing.


well, is Randy Oliver convincing?

Oxalic Acid: Questions, Answers, and More Questions: Part 1 of 2 Par
"How often to use it?

Will overuse of oxalic acid result in its becoming just another “Silver Bullet” with a limited effective life, due to mites evolving resistance? I strongly suggest using it to knock back mite levels only once a year. Otherwise, we’ll just be breeding for *OA-resistant mites*—especially if you’re also using formic acid!" from here:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/

From another hand, indeed, I do agree with *DrJeseuss* that OAV is more like "physical" treatment.

I also want to point out that organic acids discussion is out of scope of this thread


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## BeeHoosier (Feb 21, 2016)

Challenger, please don't assume you know anything about me. You call me a "know-it-all new beekeeper", but you really know nothing about me so please keep the childish comments to yourself. I can respect your opinion and can also appreciate constructive arguments, so please be respectful of others as well. 



challenger said:


> This is a typical comment from another know it all new beekeeper.
> Varroa can't become resistant to OA or FA. If they could then they would, just as easily I suppose, become resistant to the high Temps of the thermosolar treatment.
> Maybe people that are "throwing chemicals" are actually saving their bees from being killed by varroa. Your reply makes it sound like people are indiscriminately flooding their hives with bad chemicals because it's easy to do.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Beehoosier, they'll never stop. The anti-TF people argue against it like their entire life savings is at stake if TF takes off. Are there any famous beekeepers really that consistently treat their bees? Seems like all the well known ones are the polite helpful folks who have been treatment free for ages.


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## BeeHoosier (Feb 21, 2016)

I realize that ABK and I didn't want to start a TF versus treatment debate, I was just stating some thoughts. At this point I am not really 100% one way or the other regarding treatment and management options. I see lots of pros and cons both ways. I am new at this and am doing well so far and I am trying to read and gather more info from great forums like this along with books, magazines, and other beekeepers. I realize and can appreciate varying schools of thought and ideas, but to be called out as a know-it-all new beekeeper was uncalled for and does nothing positive, so I wanted to let him know I didn't appreciate it and there are better ways of offering your opinion or advice.


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