# Sticky  Bulk honey prices and market outlook



## JohnK and Sheri

irwin harlton said:


> Heard some packers had dropped their offering prices......... hadn't noticed any downward pricing going on the store shelf's,to the contrary , prices were actually going up there.


A packer friend of mine will tell you it takes several months for the prices to work themselves through the system. It makes him crazy to put honey on the shelves at a cheaper price than what it costs him, or not be able to lower prices in a timely manner, but that is the nature of stocking those shelves.



irwin harlton said:


> A Canadian honey broker recently had a offer out for 1.50 Canadian,picked up in your yard, drums lost , for 10 loads, alot of phone calls later the order was filled and she is working on another order for the same price,I hear. Canadian dollar was trading around 1.25 US. That may be GOOD PRICE at present market conditions........ but I doubt it.I don't think supply and demand have entered the big picture yet.Other Current Canadian offers were 1.40. UK honey is selling at up to £2.30 per pound in BULK- source Bee -L.
> Maybe that supply and demand won't enter the pic if the packers get there way.


We try to hold our honey until at least Jan-March of the next year, hoping the glut of harvest is run through and the price recovers a bit. Doesn't always work but selling when everyone else is usually isn't the best plan.



irwin harlton said:


> I must remind myself that honey is not one of those necessity foods like bread and milk and that I don't need to be quite as greedy as some of those wall street folks


We raised our retail prices by 50+ percent (that is basically what wholesale went up also) and it didn't seem to make any difference at all. I think so far, those few who might be turned away by price are being more than offset by those coming in for honey's perceived health benefits. Not sure if this will hold or not, time will tell, I guess. 
Sheri


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## Trevor Mansell

So what are the current bulk prices for honey in the U.S.?


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## JohnK and Sheri

Trevor Mansell said:


> So what are the current bulk prices for honey in the U.S.?


I'd be curious to know also. Last I heard was about a month/6 weeks ago. Mark from Sioux said the price had softened to $1.40ish. We haven't had time to think about selling any honey yet.
Sheri


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## alpha6

Around here it's $1.55 though light is going for 1.75. Retail is another story...I am seeing local guys get anywhere from $5 lb to $16 lb and selling most of what they can bottle. Fairly good demand for local honey around here...which is nice. :thumbsup:


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## JohnK and Sheri

Wow, $1.75? Is this in semi load quantity? If so I will have to put moving some honey at the top of the list!
Sheri



alpha6 said:


> Around here it's $1.55 though light is going for 1.75. Retail is another story...I am seeing local guys get anywhere from $5 lb to $16 lb and selling most of what they can bottle. Fairly good demand for local honey around here...which is nice. :thumbsup:


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## sqkcrk

Or is this one of those cases where the packer has a price of $X.XX/lb but they aren't buying any at this time? And then they don't at that price?


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## jean-marc

*Price for honey*

sqkcrk:

That's the same situation for me. I'm selling my honey at $2.25/lb in the drum, but I have not got any left.


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## jean-marc

*Movement of honey*

With this slowdown of the economy are packers filling up their warehouses? Apparently there is not so much white honey on the market. If they wish to fill the warehouse do they still have lines of credit? Otherwise I imagine packers are on a hand to mouth situation and risk not finding white honey in a few months.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

*maybe no more cheap Chinese honey in the US*

http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e365/buzz1356/?action=view&current=chineseimage_0001.jpg


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## LSPender

*Irwin*



irwin harlton said:


> http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e365/buzz1356/?action=view&current=chineseimage_0001.jpg


Can you post the text of photo of e-mail from Ron, having a hard time reading


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## JohnK and Sheri

J-Bees said:


> enjoy your trip, and don't work to hard Ok:}:}
> JB:}


Have the/are the packers loading up? I would imagine. As for credit, many of them are working on the producers dime, not paying for 30 or even 60 days. As long as they get paid they can pay their suppliers.
My worry is that with the economy teetering the consumers will decide they better stock up on beans and leave the honey on the shelf, as a luxury.
Not sure what the white honey situation is, didn't I hear the Dakotas had a great year? We are still sitting on our white, as are several beeks we know, the phone isn't burnin off the hook yet, but it very seldom does. Those packers have to be pretty desperate to call, they don't like admitting their need.
Sheri


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## loggermike

Hold the Ctrl key down and roll the scroll button on the mouse to enlarge it enough to read. 
Thats good news .The loophole in the law the chinese were using to get around the previous loophole is closing. :no:


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## irwin harlton

*reply LSPender*

Thanks loggermike, this particular pdf has been a problem for me, but than alot of simple things can be a problem for me, a self taught puter operator who don't know nothing.If anyone knows how to get this pdf to a copy and paste and wants to paste it here ,I can email them the pdf , it cotains some good info- regarding the current honey market in US


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## Dan Williamson

JohnK and Sheri said:


> My worry is that with the economy teetering the consumers will decide they better stock up on beans and leave the honey on the shelf, as a luxury.


Now see... I guess I tend to look at it like this.... the luxuries people are used to getting are big houses they can't afford.... huge SUV gas guzzlers and the like..... Now that they can't afford those multi-thousand $$ luxuries, I figure they'll settle for the small luxuries like a jar of honey as a consolation prize! 

Wishful thinkin?


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## irwin harlton

*brazil honey exports and prices*

Disclosure United States was the main destination for Brazilian exports of honey in October 
The Brazilian exports of honey for the month of October remained an uptrend has been in September. The growth was 16% in value and 22% by weight, equivalent to an income of $ 5776533.00 and 2.33 tons of honey. This is the second highest monthly value already exported by the sector, exceeded only by income received in April 2004. 

The balance of exports from January to October this year is also quite favorable. During this period, the accumulated revenue was $ 35.48 million, growth of nearly 100% in comparison with 2007. The quantities traded reached 14.99 tons, high of 35.8%. 

The data are consolidated by the consultant for removal of the Unit of the Sebrae Agribusiness and national coordinator of Sustainable Integrated Beekeeping Network (Network Apis), Reginaldo Resende. The reference is the System Information Analysis of Foreign Trade via Internet (Alice-Web) of the Secretariat of Foreign Trade (Secex) of the Ministry of Development, Industry and Foreign Trade. 

In October, the average amount paid by the honey exported was $ 2.47 per kilo, a reduction of 5% compared to September. However, prices received by the states of Santa Catarina and Parana broke the historic barrier of $ 3 per kilo. Santa Catarina registered reaching new record price of U.S. $ 3.35 / kg, and Parana returned U.S. $ 3.02 / kg 

Exporters 

Sao paulo took the lead in exports in October, with $ 2.4 million, accounting for more than 42% of the total value exported. Rio Grande do Sul appears in the second in the ranking, with $ 1.3 million, followed by Brazil (U.S. $ 696.8 mil), Rio Grande do Norte (U.S. $ 577.7 mil), Nevada (U.S. $ 464.3 mil), Paraná (U.S. $ 117 thousand) and Minas Gerais (U.S. $ 97.9 mil). 

The United States was the main destination for Brazilian exports of honey in October. The country accounted for 69% of the total market, with revenues of $ 3.97 million at a price of 2.40 / kg Germany has already bought 24% of honey exported last month, with prices of $ 2.76 / kg 

"The export to Europe, which has always paid more for Brazilian honey, it was possible due to be in October, eight warehouses and related authorized by the Ministry of Agriculture to export honey to the European Union", highlights Reginaldo. This result was driven by the Food Insurance Program (SAP) applied to beekeeping, developed by Sebrae and partners. Of the eight warehouses related, three are in Brazil, two in Sao Paulo, two in Michigan and one in Parana. 

Service: 
Sebrae News Agency of - (61) 3348-7138 / 2107-9362 / www.agenciasebrae.com.br 
The texts and pictures carried by the News Agency of Sebrae may be reproduced freely through the service of the agency and credit the photographer. For more information, the journalists should call (61) 3348.7494, at a time of 10h to 19h.


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## irwin harlton

*supply and demand in the honey market*

and where OR which way will it will it go?
By Nigel Stevenson and Brett Foley

Dec. 5 (Bloomberg) -- The fundamentals of commodities are “unimpaired” and prices will rebound when a lack of new supply leads to shortages, said Jim Rogers, chairman of Rogers Holdings.

“Commodities will be the place to be if and when we come out of” the downturn, Rogers said yesterday in an interview from Miami. “The only thing where fundamentals are unimpaired are commodities. Farmers cannot get loans for fertilizer now. Nobody can get a loan to open a zinc mine. So we are going to have some serious, serious supply problems before too much longer.”

The Reuters/Jefferies CRB Index of 19 commodities has plunged 53 percent from a record in July on concern that a global recession will sap demand for raw materials.

Rogers said crude oil and agricultural commodities were the most likely to have shortages and the outlook for zinc and cotton had “improved.”

Central banks and President-elect Barack Obama should be careful in responding to the global economic slump, Rogers said.

“It is astonishing how bad they’re reacting this time. It is unfathomable to me what they’re doing and you think some of them would have read some history,” he said.


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## irwin harlton

*S. Kamberg dec 2008 honey report*

http://skamberg.com/........click market update ,click honey


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## jean-marc

*Skamberg report*

Irwin:

I'm not sure why but I can't access that page. I tried last night as well.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

*sorry Jean Marc, try this link*

http://skamberg.com/


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## irwin harlton

*A Washington mead maker tracking store honey prices*

The stable prices in March have given way to much more expensive honey in October. Price increases ranged from 6.5%, on Miller’s clover, to 38.9% on Dutch Gold wildflower.

Click here to read the entire article:

http://www.washingtonwinemaker.com/blog/2008/10/06/honey-prices-a-bull-market-in-this-liquid-asset/


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## Ian

>>............................................is the bull market in honey over? Me thinks not


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## irwin harlton

*price of honey continues to climb*

.............on the store shelf. see http://www.washingtonwinemaker.com/blog/

Worst drought in Argentina in 70 years, see http://apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm, see 
article

ARGENTINA- AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTION, ASPHYXIATION BY THE DROUGHT 


just wondering if that packer in Kansas who is offering 1.25 or less is getting the drift......
..... heard he wasn't getting any honey at that price


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## irwin harlton

*prices in Argentina on slow recovery*

http://apitrack.com/noticias/aaacotizacionmiel_es_open.htm...... note last years prices in sept and oct


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## The Honey Householder

*honey price*

I don't think the packers are getting it yet. I was offered $1.25 two weeks ago. Just check back in today and Michagan packer offered $1.20. They said they can get all the honey they need from Canada for $1.20 delivered. Well is this true, that the Canadain still has a lot of honey and is selling it this cheap??? I only have 30 ton lift but looking to move it sometime this year!!!
Anyone with answers,:lookout:

The Honey Householder


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## Ian

Your 1.2$ US is our 1.5$ Canadian, which is good for us
My banker has said his clients are moving thier honey for 1.5$/lbs,
Thats a good price for us,


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## irwin harlton

*The Honey Householder*

I have seen no reports ( official USDA) (please see dec. American Bee JOURNAL page 22) 
Also see http://www.honey.com/honeyindustry/statistics.asp ....click on National Honey Report for dec 2008 report

of Canadian honey being sold for $1.20 delivered.

We maybe dumb Canadians but we ain't stupid


Irwin

Packers never lie but the odd one has been known to misunderestimate the truth

'They misunderestimated me.' George W Bush


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## irwin harlton

*Argentina dry*

http://newsdaily.com/stories/tre50f5ap-us-argentina-farmers/

http://www.bloombergnews.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=amK.9KIAu890&refer=news


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## Ian

This has keep support on the grain market, we are seeing rallies due to the uncertain crop in south america
Brazil has a crop though, so they mention. Kind of opposite what your news page suggested.
Perhaps the dryness in Brazil is issolated


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## The Honey Householder

*honey prices*

So has any one been selling honey since the first of the year, and at what prices. I've gotten one quote back from Michigan packer for $1.20 and still waiting for KS and Pa packers. 
Looking for input,
Ron


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## Trevor Mansell

I got $1.25 for some fall honey, it wasnt white ,but it was better than the $1.10 Dutch Gold was offering.


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## soupcan

*Prices*

$1.50 on small lots.
We had to go down to a $1.30 on the last 25 drums or so from $1.40.
Drums exchanged & a split on the freight.
Real nice looking & tasting alfalfa honey.
Hated to go down on the price as we have a new honey house to pay for but the packer we sell to needed help on the & he is a great guy to do business with.
Just not many of his kind left any more.


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## jean-marc

What I'd like to know is if honey is moving? There are times when very little honey moves. Typically it's dec/january, before the Argentinian crop comes on market. Packers are hoping prices will be lower or use that threat to keep prices suppressed. So is anybody having difficulties moving honey? This is assuming that the price is not ridiculously low. With a supposed lower Argentinian crop forecast I would think demand is stronger than usual.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

*Honey movement is slow or non existant*

Just my opinion, and according to the Mid U.S. Honey Hot line, what little honey is being sold is moving to small packers at good prices.
This would be " normal" for this time of year, if you can call anything normal anymore.
The big question on suppliers and buyers mind is how much the recession is going to crush the sales or demand?????
Packers would like you(producer) to believe the worst case scenario.and they don't like to carry high priced inventory when there's chance of cheaper stuff down the road
There is a world shortage of honey......growth of the US industrial market for honey has been phenonimal......just look at total imports for last couple of years
The big problem is the cheap trans shipped , laundered chinese honey.......keeping the price of all honey down.....a few dedicated fellows in the American Honey Proudcers ( God Bless them ) have been pursueing these loopholes and lawbreakers for 10 long years. Their efforts are finally bearing fruit.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/395172_honey08.html


Irwin
still looking for a home for my honey

My favorite personal Greenspan quote is the beauty right below.

"[Hedge Funds] …are essentially free of government regulation,
and I hope they will remain so.
Why do we wish to inhibit the pollinating bees of Wall Street?” seekingalpha.com/article, 12-16-2008


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## Ian

ya, it was about two years ago, about this time of year packers started throwing low ball prices, as low as .65$/lbs. Before it was trading from .75$ to .85$ .. It did sucker some producers into selling, for they bought the rumour "someone" sent around that South America had a bumper crop. 
Well South America had one of its worst crops in the last 10 years, which infact seems to be the trend right up til now. 
It bought us at least .5$ to a 1$ on our honey pricing. Alot of folks bought into that false story, and paid for it. 

Groups like this, where we can interact between beekeepers and share worldly information provides us with such better insite than following the local crouds mood.


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## irwin harlton

*honey price rises in Argentina*

ARGENTINA- HONEY PRICES INCRAESES IN THE INTERNAL MARKET 

http://www.apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm


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## jean-marc

It's interesting to see that according to those numbers beekeepers are getting better money for their honey today than 2003. I guess that was the year of the chloramphenicol tainted chinese honey. Kinda make you wonder. In Canada prices paid to the producer were way higher, mind you our dollar was weaker at the time. What this tells me is that the argentinian honey brokers make North American honey packers look like angels and that there must be a very small crop out there. Irwin I must say I like those little gems.

Jean-Marc


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## RAlex

Irwin Thank you for the link to apitrack. Its interesting reading . Unless I am mistaken the Argentines (producers) are recieving about .79 (USD) per pound at their location per pound. Its my understanding the much of their crop is destined to the US ? Although it looks like Brazil has shipped more to the US this year the net result would be a shorter supply hence higher prices here to the producers here and in Canada ? I know other factors are involved as well.
I would like to Thank You, Ian and Jean-Marc for the straightforward disscussions I have read on Beesource... Rick Alexander


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## The Honey Householder

*Packers are looking for honey!!!!*

I held out as long as I can. Finally got 3 offer from different big packers. I just sold a whole load of white honey for $1.29 lb. I only wish I had another month to work the packer against each other. Sorry to say someone had to win. With the cost of bees up again this year, I can't hold this honey forever. Don't sell for any less guys. The packer I finally sold to, first offered me $1.20. LOL That was a good one. When I counted back with $1.29 and told them they only had a day before I sold to another. They called back within two hours and took it. The week before they told me they can get all the Canada honey they want for $1.20 deleivered. 
PACKER DON"T LIE:doh:
Ron


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## Ian

ya, you got to have a target price for your production, otherwise you will watch the market rise and then go back down. Selling on the way up is the way to go.
When pricing your honey, and trying to make a decission on to sell or not, it helps to calculate the interest incurring on your line of credit. If you hold on for another three months, you simply subtract that cost off your $$/lbs


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## John Smith

*Then allow for inflation*

Correct, Ian, one can catch himself going backwards at times.

But with interest rates all over the place and inflation rising and falling in rapid gyrations, one also needs to consider the value of the money he receives. With maybe 1.6 trillion dollars pumped into the banking system, one needs to be aware that hyperinflation is a distinct possibility over the next few years.

Honey is edible gold, and will always have enormous power at street level. Its value in relation to eggs and milk may not change much at all. As such, it becomes a monetary unit in its own right. It may be a better money to save than gold itself.
'
The French have a word I Like. It is 'numeraire.' It roughly means, 'that by which we value all else.' Dollars are no longer a valid numeraire. So try measuring every thing you work for, everything you need, and everything you already have in pounds of honey for a while and it will give you a whole new insight into whether to buy, sell, or hold.

Honey in the tank is money in the bank!

Cheers,

JohnS


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## jim lyon

*value*

John makes some good points. While no one knows what the price of honey will be at any time in the future at least we know have produced a tangible (and edible) product that fulfills a basic human need. Unlike some other businesses that refer to themselves as "industries" at least at the end of the year I know I have either directly produced or indirectly helped in the production (as in pollination) something of real value. Now back to my day job as hedge fund broker.........just kidding folks.


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## irwin harlton

*Reptuable honey packers*

test all the loads they are going to buy, for the antibiotic that is the signature of bad chinese honey.When found they do not buy, merely return it to the seller, who readily pursues another buyer.The FDA is not notified, or for that matter do they care???????
USA- CONCEALMENT OF TAINTED IMPORTED HONEY WIDESPREAD, U.S. HONEY PRODUCER SAY

see http://apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm

Hmmmmmm , is there something wrong with this picture, the inmates are running the jail I think.
The result is the contaminated honey eventually gets sold, probably at a even lower price than the initial offer and ends up blended AND OR on the shelf.
The good reputable packers are doing nothing to rid themselves of the industry scum..... they must love cheap competition , or maybe there hoping the scum will get caught ,and what ? pay a fine?


Irwin


Experience is one thing you can't get for nothing.
Oscar Wilde


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## Ian

>>Honey in the tank is money in the bank!


right on, but, remember, 
the banker who is lending you the money to make that honey in the tank, isnt happy until that honey is cashed into the bank


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## The Honey Householder

*Free line of credit*



John Smith said:


> Correct, Ian, one can catch himself going backwards at times.
> 
> But with interest rates all over the place and inflation rising and falling in rapid gyrations, one also needs to consider the value of the money he receives. With maybe 1.6 trillion dollars pumped into the banking system, one needs to be aware that hyperinflation is a distinct possibility over the next few years.
> 
> Honey is edible gold, and will always have enormous power at street level. Its value in relation to eggs and milk may not change much at all. As such, it becomes a monetary unit in its own right. It may be a better money to save than gold itself.
> '
> The French have a word I Like. It is 'numeraire.' It roughly means, 'that by which we value all else.' Dollars are no longer a valid numeraire. So try measuring every thing you work for, everything you need, and everything you already have in pounds of honey for a while and it will give you a whole new insight into whether to buy, sell, or hold.
> 
> Honey in the tank is money in the bank!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> JohnS


The Honey in my tank is hard as a rock.
I just finally had to buy a new truck and it cost me 34 barrels of honey. Thats down 3 barrels from last year at this time. In April I have to pick up 600 package to get another season started and that will cost me another 29 barrels. The load of FHC I just got in cost me 11 barrels. You know your right looking at it this way it isn't that bad. The only bank I use is my warehouse. By the time I get my money from the packers I have to pay everyone else. Boy if it wasn't for those Packers. It must be nice to have a free line of credit.
Ron


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## irwin harlton

*FDA update on honey imports*

http://www.fda.gov/ora/fiars/ora_import_ia3604.html


A #36-04, 12/10/08, IMPORT ALERT #36-04, "DETENTION WITHOUT PHYSICAL
EXAMINATION OF HONEY AND BLENDED SYRUP DUE TO PRESENCE OF
***FLUOROQUINOLONES***" " ATTACHMENT A 1/5/09

some politicians are speaking up http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56372

A long and bitterly rewarded war has be waged by the American Honey Producers Association
against the contaminated Chinese honey.........it will take more time ,more money and more dedication to win this war
The FDA or the USDA have no definition of the food called honey.

Normally any contaminated food found is destroyed.......... not with honey , not that it is too valuable, it is just to dam easy to sell into a demanding market at the right price.

irwin

We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, 
we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.
Winston Churchill 

Geography has made us neighbors. 
History has made us friends. 
Economics has made us partners, and necessity has made us allies.
Those whom God has so joined together, let no man put asunder.
John F. Kennedy


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## John Smith

*Bartering Database*



The Honey Householder said:


> The Honey in my tank is hard as a rock.
> I just finally had to buy a new truck and it cost me 34 barrels of honey. Thats down 3 barrels from last year at this time. In April I have to pick up 600 package to get another season started and that will cost me another 29 barrels. The load of FHC I just got in cost me 11 barrels. You know your right looking at it this way it isn't that bad. The only bank I use is my warehouse. By the time I get my money from the packers I have to pay everyone else. Boy if it wasn't for those Packers. It must be nice to have a free line of credit.
> Ron


Click on SAVE for that data, Ron. We need a list of what honey will buy, from trucks and real estate to milk and haircuts, so we can compare notes in 12 months and see whether or not we are gaining or losing. 

With your permission, I will start a data base and post it in honey_australia noting your statistics. All I need then is for more beeks to volunteer a contribution or two and we will have our database. It could be very useful in all bartering transactions, which, I might add are VERY tax efficient. Perhaps such a data base is already going? Does anyone know of such?

My honey shed is my savings bank.


Cheers,

JohnS


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## Ian

>>Normally any contaminated food found is destroyed.......... not with honey , not that it is too valuable, it is just to dam easy to sell into a demanding market at the right price.


I dont doubt your comments, but I really dont understand how that is possibley happening. I am very involved with the cattle industry, and you know as well as I do how sticky they are with contaminated meat. If anything is found, everything is discarded. I would only expect the CFIA to do the same with honey, and if its a case where packers arnt reporting the contaminated imports, then, dont you feel they would be setting themselves up for a big liable mess?


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## irwin harlton

*contaminated honey when found is sent back to seller*

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/397445_honey26.html


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## jean-marc

*Tainted honey*

I want to comment on Irwin's post # 60. It's interesting to see that some packer's test for honey and if they refuse the load because of residue issues, they do not notify the FDA. They justify that position by saying it's not my honey so it's not my problem. At that point they've only tested the honey and have not paid for it.To a degree I understand what they are saying. The honey then re-enters the market thru another packer, at least that's what the honey broker wants. 

In a way it would be in the interest of packer #1 to "blow the whistle" on that load of honey. It would be in his short term interest to have that honey removed from the market particularly if it gets offered to a second packer for a few pennies less. Packer # 1 is competing with packer #2 who has access to cheaper albeit contaminated honey. 

So how come packer #1 does not blow the whistle? Does he value the relationship with the honey broker so much that he does not want to cause him any grief ? Is there such a shortage of honey that from a packer's point of vue it's better to pack honey with residue or honey that has circumvented duties than to pack no honey at all? From the packer's point of vue the worse that can happen to him is not to have honey to pack. Whether that honey is cheap or expensive if you do not have any you cannot pack it and resell it.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

Perhaps a government comment on the issue would be more reputalbe than that from a news link,

>>Bruce Boynton, the chief executive of the board, a trade group created by the U.S. Agriculture Department, said policing honey is the FDA's job.

I find it real hard to believe the govenment of our country would allow any known adulterated foods to be knowingly traded,

If they get caught doing so, you know, they would get jail time,..


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## deknow

he is appointed by usda, but does not work for the usda, he works for the nhb...which is a private trade group. another officer of the nhb (bob coyle) seems to be armpit deep in the "honey laundering scam"...it seems actions have been started to seize his house.

the nhb also declared "the bee movie" an educational film, and i believe spent 1million dollars co-promoting it.

deknow


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## irwin harlton

*it is an offence not to*

report a "reportable food" under the Food and Drug Administration Amendments Act of 2007 (FDAAA

http://www.foodprocessing.com/articles/2007/286.html

Failure to notify FDA of a reportable food is added to the list of "prohibited acts" in the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act.

And we in Canada are not saints, a certain eastern Canadian packer upon finding some contaminated honey in his inventory, asks the CFIA what he should do, they said ship it back to china and he did,........now if you believe that it was shipped back to china,you and I both believe in the tooth fairy.
Needless to say that packing company changed ownership last year.

I guess the bottom line is nobody has died YET from consuming contaminated honey,.... that we know of.... a person would probably have to eat several pounds at a sitting to endanger his life, unless allergic to the antibiotic chemical .Most of this product is put into the industrial bakery trade market where 10 cents worth of honey allows the manufacturer to put honey on his label.The good name of honey has been taken in vain many times
It is however burying an industry,nailing it to the cross.......the American honey industry deserves better respect from those packers handling it one step away from the consumer and from those who promote it......they are worth nothin compared to that product HONEY

Some in the industry seem to think that they can sweep this little bit of dirt under the carpet, where it can hide and no one will notice it.......but it ain't going away and neither are the AHPA


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## irwin harlton

*re Bob Coyle*

Give a crook enough rope and he can usually manage to hang himself. Investigators have tellexis's from his Chinese supplier stating supplier is worried about the contaminating chemical being found by FDA and supplier saying chemical is going to be around for a couple of more years...... the rewards must have been worth the risk or it was soooooooooooo easy in the past couple of years to pull this off........the market was there


Bob says he's going to get out of the honey brokerage buissiness.......pretty hard to run a buissiness from jail.......he has conspired to defraud the US govt out of alot of money.Being 
homeless and in jail at the same time isn't harsh enough punishment for this low life.

Of course one is ALWAYS INNOCENT till proven guilty in a court of law.........hope they throw away the key

In China they recently executed two people in the melamaine milk scandal..............kinda like their justice for people who want to mess with food for a profit ....that causes loss of human lives


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## irwin harlton

*poor crop in the Yucatan, mexico*

Low temperatures and lack of rain have damaged flowering tajonal, which consequently cause a decrease in 1,500 thousand tons of honey,

http://apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm


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## Ian

>>certain eastern Canadian packer upon finding some contaminated honey in his inventory, asks the CFIA what he should do, they said ship it back to china and he did

I wonder what he found in the honey,?

Im confused a bit. Maybe I have just assumed any foods that have found to be adulterated have to be destroyed. 
there was some packed coop labled honey in Alberta that had been taken off the shelf because of adulteration of some kind, hoeny from china.
What happened to that honey? Did they distroy it? or was it shipped off to someother market else where in the world?


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## irwin harlton

*ZERO TOLERANCE FOR chloramphenicol????*

chloramphenicol,an banned antibiotic in food OR the trademark for Chinese honey
I really forgot how nasty this stuff is

Humans may develop fatal aplastic anemia if exposed orally to chloramphenicol (risk is approximately one person in 25,000).
This condition is irreversible and is not dependent upon dosages. For this reason, chloramphenicol has been banned from food animal use in the United States as well as from human use. 
Washing hands after handling this medication is recommended.

Chloramphenicol is a potent, broad-spectrum antibiotic drug and a potential carcinogen used only at therapeutic doses for treatment of serious infections in humans. Due to the unpredictable effects of dose on different patient populations, it has not been possible to identify a safe level of human exposure to chloramphenicol. Therefore, Federal regulations
in the United States, Canada and the European Union prohibit its use in food producing animals and animal-feed products,including honey bees


The FDA is concerned about any detection of chloramphenicol in foods, according to Dr. Lester M. Crawford,
FDA Deputy Commissioner. "The Agency will take whatever action is necessary to protect the public health." 
Therefore there is a zero tolerance for chloramphenicol in food. FDA is requiring testing for chloramphenicol to be one using FDA's LC/MS/MS method validated down to 0.3 ppb. But any confirmed residue below this level is considered food contamination.

Seems to me zero tolerance goes out the window when contaminated honey is returned to the seller, to do with whatever he pleases with it, and the FDA,CFIA is not told of the "bad" product.

Chloramphenicol tells the packer it's chinese honey no matter what the country of
origin says on the documents.
Sue bee and a few other reptuable packers test every load that they import,even all Canadian loads..... must be alot floating around

You can even buy your own rapid ready portable test for chloramphenicol,... you guessed it, direct from china, see 
http://www.alibaba.com/product/zhan...amphenicol_Residue_Rapid_Inspection_Test.html

Hmmmmmmm , a couple of brands of honey on local grocery store shelves I wouldn't mind testing myself.Only takes 10 minutes and sensitivity up to 0.3ppb

http://www.adpen.com/chloramphenicol in food and feed.htm

There is also quinolones found in Chinese honey......http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroquinolone... and the whole resistance thing to all antibiotics..none of these should be in honey ....but they are


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## jean-marc

*Adulteration*

Ian and others:

I don't think the issue with chinese honey is adulteration. If there were better/cheaper tests for adulteration then I'm pretty sure it could become an issue. I've seen some outfits on the prairies with 4 boxes high and the feed buckets on , so one has to be careful when pointing fingers.

The issues with chinese honey are 2 fold. The residue issue with chloramphenicol, which unfortunately for them is banned in food. As Irwin pointed it's zero tolerance. So I guess being so clever it looks like they've switched to another antibiotic class fluoroquinolone. As a nation China is probably experiencing difficulties controlling AFB, EFB and who know's maybe some mutation of one of the above or some other bacterial disease.

The other issue is there great desire and ability to circumvent duties. It's unfortunate that their talents are wasted on such devious activities and not used in something productive.

Assuming that the good governement decided to destroy a load of honey, how do you suppose they would do that? I dson't think flushing it down the sewer would work to well. Just imagine granulation down the line.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

*destroying a load of honey*

would it fit into the production of ethanol........be burned up


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## Ian

>>Assuming that the good governement decided to destroy a load of honey, how do you suppose they would do that? I dson't think flushing it down the sewer would work to well. Just imagine granulation down the line

HA!

But what how do you suppose a company would go about distroying a whole production run of meat? They have to destory it somehow, I suppose they would expect the packer of the contaminated honey to do the same,
Talk about costly,


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## Ian

>>I've seen some outfits on the prairies with 4 boxes high and the feed buckets on , so one has to be careful when pointing fingers.



Just for the record, every beekeeper that operates around my area manage their operations to prevent any adulteration of anykind. Myself included,


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## irwin harlton

*some thoughts,jean marc, by me*

jean marc said

I want to comment on Irwin's post # 60. It's interesting to see that some packer's test for honey and if they refuse the load because of residue issues, they do not notify the FDA. They justify that position by saying it's not my honey so it's not my problem. At that point they've only tested the honey and have not paid for it.To a degree I understand what they are saying. The honey then re-enters the market thru another packer, at least that's what the honey broker wants.

"In a way it would be in the interest of packer #1 to "blow the whistle" on that load of honey. It would be in his short term interest to have that honey removed from the market particularly if it gets offered to a second packer for a few pennies less. Packer # 1 is competing with packer #2 who has access to cheaper albeit contaminated honey.

So how come packer #1 does not blow the whistle? Does he value the relationship with the honey broker so much that he does not want to cause him any grief ? Is there such a shortage of honey that from a packer's point of vue it's better to pack honey with residue or honey that has circumvented duties than to pack no honey at all? From the packer's point of vue the worse that can happen to him is not to have honey to pack. Whether that honey is cheap or expensive if you do not have any you cannot pack it and resell it."

some thoughts by me on your comments Jean

The contaminated honey being returned to the broker is not viewed as a serious unhealthy product........no one has died yet ,or seriously been injured ,with a resulting lawsuit against the packer of any contaminated honey.I am sure all packers carry a good insurance package and know where to find good lawyers. This is still a law violation,(not reporting it ), and I think the law is a new one.
I cannot recall of any packer ever reporting to FDA antibiotics,adulteration or any contamination in honey. he bought or was about to buy.... this doesn't say too much about this group.This is a very small group of people, companies and they know each other like you and I know fellow beekeepers and they communicate quite well between themselves

The packer who tested and found residue has covered his butt by not buying the honey.
He does not wish to cause the broker pain, or the cost of destroying the honey, and wants to keep this supplier of large quantities as a supplier,especially if honey becomes short in supply.
Broker is looked at as a supplier of services, he supplies honey, don't shoot the messenger cause he ended up with some bad product to sell, and you may need this service down the road.China may or may not produce some good honey,depending on which packer you ask
Broker can probably supply a lot of good honey as well as the bad, which he may or may not be aware of- false or unrepresentative samples sent to the broker.
If you were a honest packer and you did accidently end up buying a load of adultrated or contaminated honey, how hard do you think it would be to get rid of it and not lose too much or any money?Me thinks not hard

The contamination could be blended out, to less than what could be found by present 
testing, this I am guessing would be relatively easy, so the contaminated product becomes wholesome honey  again and no one is any the wiser........ this could be and maybe is happening on regular basis.
Latest rumor I heard there was a certain packer or packers who were " specialized into" packing contaminated honey and the sting operation wasn't over yet, but soon would be. Funny one bad egg can ruin a whole carton,this might or might not be good for the industry as a whole ,right now.
The brokers soon learn who tests, who buys what ,and where the market is for this contaminated or adulterated honey, or combination of both
Its the same old game that has been playing for ages..... its called "we win" for the broker and "we win" for the packers......just got to bend the rules a bit... the big losers are the consumers and risk to their health, the producers of pure product,the US gov't which loses the revenue off circumvented honey and the entire industry .....which stoops to a new low.
Packers and their associations do not want to police themselves and the less they have to do with FDA and gov't regulations then the better off they think they are.As one packer said "FDA is the regulator". The FDA have been hampered with limited resources dealing within a small honey industry base and only a lot of pressure and sometimes personal funds by a few dedicated individuals in AHPA has resulted in the news we see.If you are a honey producer , an investment in membership here is the best investment money can buy.

One only has to look at the list of honey importing countries into the USA and Canada, how it has grown the past few years,countries who suddenly increase honey production by impossible precentages (900% in one year)....but not all of this honey is coming from china by transhipping but it is coming from all over the world. The market is growing and needs honey.It prefers cheaper imported honey,it grows even faster when that honey is cheaper than what it can be produced here for..... the industrial bakery trade market seems to be leading the pack and I fear it will be taking the biggest hit in this recession.....maybe a good thing it doesn't require pure white honey,just the cheap stuff


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## irwin harlton

*softing market .. lower prices?*

http://www.skamberg.com/honey.htm

Honey Update:

January 2009

Sioux Honey is reporting to us that they believe that there are still some
substantial price differences between legitimate honey in the world market
and honey that is highly questionable (adulterated, contaminated,
circumvented through a 3rd country). Sorting out the good from the bad can
be very difficult (costly & time consuming). Sioux is still leading the
industry with their testing, and they continue to reject any honey that
does not meet their stringent standards.

The raw honey market has been very fickle in the last few months as honey
producers throughout the world try to determine what effect the world wide
economic crisis will have on honey consumption. Prices started to soften,
then quickly firmed up because demand has not fallen off. Additionally
there appears to be more evidence of lower priced Chinese honey entering the
U.S. market transshipped through a 3rd country

Colony Collapse Disorder is still a real issue. Sioux has received reports
of some beekeepers losing up to half their colonies. More CCD reports will
probably start coming in as beekeepers prepare to move their bees into the
almond groves in California for pollination. The time period from now
through March is when we they get the best indications of how bad CCD will
be this year.

U.S consumption is still strong as we continue to consume over twice as much
honey as we produce in this country. Final numbers for the 2008 U.S. honey
crop are not in yet, but the crop was considerably better than last year.
Prices for U.S. honey were very strong as the crop came in, but we did see
some softening of those prices over the last couple months, again as
uncertainty in the economy grows

The strength of the U.S. dollar against the Euro is a factor that has helped
the U.S. to compete for some of the honey in the world market. Over the last
year, the weakened U.S. dollar had put them at a huge disadvantage competing
against Europe for the same honey. That exchange rate has fluctuated over
the last months, and most believe are now in a better position to bid for
raw honey in the world market.

Europe, whose insatiable appetite for honey has slowed a little, still is a
major factor in world honey market pricing. They continue to shy away from
Chinese and other Asian honey as they concentrate on South American honey
that is just entering the market. Much of South America is under extreme
drought conditions. Argentina has been especially hard hit, and their honey
crop projections are dismal (possibly half their normal crop).

Even with raw honey crop shortages in South America and demand for this
honey remaining strong, prices could stabilize at slightly lower prices
going into the 2nd quarter of 2009.


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## jean-marc

With a high demand and crop shortages I don't think prices will stabilize at a lower price. They could but I don't think so. The ****ing thing is here we have to compete with chinese honey that is adulterated , contaminated and or is circumventing duties. We compete on price only, not quality. This is what would keep the so called legitamite honey prices from rising. So how do we as an industry change this.

Jean-Marc


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## soupcan

*Honey*

Does the Canada Govt. check very close for this " funny honey " up north????


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## jean-marc

They check. I know they check the stuff on store shelves. I don't know how close they check the industrial market. I don't think they check to many barrels coming off a shipping container, but I'm not really sure about that. Maybe others no more about that than I do. For sure they check product that's either on store shelves or about to be delivered to stores.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

*. So how do we as an industry change this.*

Supposedly there is a law coming up whereby all food will have country of origin,on its label. the "bad "packer or packers won't be able to sell their tainted product .........chinese labelled honey will not sell in the market place , ........... they will be forced to buy the Good honey( will drive up its price I'm sure) or lose their market share completely...... the market will fix itself ,once correct labelling is in place........... or do we end up with more transhipped honey?Was this part of the COOL program, ... not sure... Obama resened all Bush's legislation passed in last 60 days, I think this was part of it
For a better explanation please see http://www.americanhoneyproducers.org/
open American Honey Producer Magazine 4th Quarter 2007 - In PDF (633 KB) 
see page 12 topic UPDATE: TRADE ORDERS ON HONEY IMPORTS
FROM CHINA AND ARGENTINA

In one way I hope you are right Jean,. about prices continuing to climb, god knows producers need fair value for their product..... the other side of the coin is what happened in 2003-2003 and producers were told the shelf price became to high( by packers) AND prices quickly dropped from their peak .... once the stimulus pkg gets rollin and the markets get to "normal" there is going to be one hell of an inflation on all prices,commodities including honey......... but thats down the road.......2 weeks at least


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## irwin harlton

*this " funny honey " up north????*

http://www.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrkti/tdst/tdo/tdo.php#tag



USA honey imports into Canada 2008 were up 62.9% from 2007............
usa was second largest importer after Australia
Usa value of imports was2.2o8M $ canadian
All honey exported by Canada is tested for CAP by US buyers, reptuable buyers!!!!!

maybe best keep your funny honey at home, we produce a surplus up here..... don't need anymore.......... all imported packaged honey and bulk is vigoursly tested by CFIA ........ anybody seen that tooth fairy


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## irwin harlton

*January honey report S. Kamberg*

"That exchange rate has fluctuated over
the last months, and most believe are now in a better position to bid for
raw honey in the world market"

European honey buyers are quietly ,intently making inquires................ could quietly steal whats left of Canada's 2008 crop......... not much white honey out there.............even less will be produced in South America............ note how quickly the Brazilian crop was bought by US ,CANADA, EUROPE.......... and it wasn't primarly white ,mostly dark organic


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## Ian

>Was this part of the COOL program

We, being Canadians, have to be very careful on where we stand on this issue. Don'T forget we are net exporters of our raw produce.

I don't disagree with labeling and all, Canada has a real reputable name when it come to food production,

What we have to be very careful with is HOW we label our foods , and what is actually involved with labeling our foods a certain way.

Remember we are trading in a worldly market, we are mixing food product from each and every way. If the labeling gets so strict that it starts requiring cost increasing processing practices, we as exporters get hit with that extra cost.
Take grain trade for example, to label that bag of flour "US", there would have to be absolute separate storage facilities, and processing runs to accommodate the legislation. Our Canadian flour, even though is has some of the best qualities in the world, gets lumped into the "foreign" label, not "Canadian", unless they decide to mill it separate. Fat chance,

Its a cost we are already seeing with our cattle trade. It has cost us .10$ / lbs and more on our meat. A cost straight from the processors passed on to the Canadian cattle producers because of increased slaughter costs incurred by having to run segregated slaughter runs. 

Same thing will happen with our honey,


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## irwin harlton

*whatever it costs to rid the market of chinese honey*

I will gladly pay it,its been around for 30 + YEARS.If thats what takes, country of origin labelling, then let it be.Producers are already paying a tremendous cost in lower prices because of it...... so prices can only get better not worse

Adultrated,contaminated,transhipped chinese honey is the curse of the world honey market,especially the northAmerican and the US market in particular where60 -70 % of the US market must be supplied from the world market.They have been effectively blocked out of the European market, leaving them only the North american market to dump into. Add to this that the chinese honey is dumped at below market prices for whatever reason..............figure the cost of this on what you could possibly get for your product.Just look at the prices they were dumping at in 2008.see http://www.honey.com/honeyindustry/stats/avgprice4countries.htm
These dumping prices affect the price of all honey,no matter what colour or grade . 

Competition in industry is good, its a world market out there, what and how they are selling chinese honey is not competition, its a crime.......... and they have been getting away with it for far too long........any other food industry would have slaughtered em by now but we are a tiny, fractured , divided industry with more than its fair share of crooks


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## Ian

>>Adultrated,contaminated,transhipped chinese honey is the curse of the world honey market,especially the northAmerican and the US market in particular

Well lets target the adulterated, contaminated, and transshipped Chinese honey then. Lets not bring in legislation that not only impedes Chinese produce, but also the rest of the trading worlds produce. 
Tariff and trading restrictions do not work well with a world trading system. I know that, you know that. If its the adulterated honey we are wanting to keep out, then lets keep it out. If its simply Chinese honey we want to keep out, then, I am afraid your trying to have it both ways. Next on your list is Argentina? Brazil? Remember we Canadians also export most of our honey production,

>> will gladly pay it,its been around for 30 + YEARS.If thats what takes, country of origin labelling, then let it be.

I cant afford it. I trade more than just honey. We sell meat and grains. Legislation like this will and has already cost us, and I am afraid we are just seeing the start,


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## irwin harlton

*Protectionism,dumping,and cake*

I agree protectionism will only lead to trade wars and a widening of the recession

yes, realize I can not have my cake and eat it too, ( would be nice, ) like the chinese have been able to currently do.
The problem being there is a market here for not only their legally duty surcharged honey plus their illegally adultrated dumped honey but
also a bigger "good' market for their illegal, contaminated product.
The even bigger problem is the current laws which allow this crooked thievery to be carried on.
No USA definition of the product honey, no ability to discern a honey by its composition to its country of origin.
Only sometihng like only 1 % of all food imports are examined at entry,so FDA Is really behind the 8 ball.
Current FDA bulletients list imported honey from Canada with imports from china,viet nam, malyasia, etc... 
as having CAP in 80% of the honey imported, so FDA cannot even get that right,OR they are simply being over cautious.
The problem is not going away under the present rules and would still be a problem under the transhipped honey with country of origin rules. It may be just a choice of the lesser of two evils or one evil being easier to fix


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## jjgbee

Rec this offer today. Argentine honey. Duty paid US Port. Wt-$1.60 ELA-$1.55, Lt Amb-$1.50 Spanish Orange-$2.20 , 100,000 lbs of each. Also have one request to export to Germany, if honey passes standards and another request to ship Sage to Saudi Arabia. The market is looking for honey. That is a good sign.


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## irwin harlton

*Yes*

reports from Argentina on their honey crop are not good..............................


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## jjgbee

In the offer of sale of Argentine honey, they estimate this year crop is down 33%.


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## jean-marc

So that is 33 % less honey than last year from Argentina? Or are they sending the barrels 2/3 full? 

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

I read somewhere a frost swept across Mexico a month or two ago, and killed off one of their flowering plants. They claimed the frost cost 1500 thousand lbs. of white honey.
Any truth to this?


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## irwin harlton

*Argentina honey price increases to beekeepers*

from 6.20 to 6.70 , Argentina pesos per kilogram

http://www.apitrack.com/noticias/aaacotizacionmiel_es_open.htm


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## jean-marc

So I went to Allend's website and he has a currency converter. Today 6.7 Argentinian pesos per Kg is equal to .87$US/pound. What would freight be? 15 to 20 cents per pound. What's the duty? Cause it sure looks like the Argentinian honey broker is the man to be in all of this.

Jean-Marc


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## John Smith

*The Authorities are Looking into It!*

Laws and more regulations and more taxes. Just keep calling for more if that's what you want!

Have you seen that cartoon of a big crater in the main street with a ring of policemen standing around it? The caption reads, "........... and the police are looking into it."

We have country of origin labeling laws here in Australia, and the police are looking into them too! 

We have jars of Powdered Honey on the shelf here, With an ingredients list like this: 100% Australian Honey, malto-dextrines. That could mean anything, but all I read into it is fraud, or at least misleading advertising. If we assume the text is technically correct and convert the jargon into simple language, powered honey could be 51% honey and 49% malto-dextrine (a technical name for a glucose syrup). It is light and fluffy too, so a jar full of it is cheap, but looks like a jar full of creamed honey at a cursory glance. I guess the police are looking into that jar too! 

But what if there was a bit of a leak? What if we ran out of honey too early in the run? Would we change the label to read, Malto-Dextrine, 100% Australian Honey? The components are supposed to be listed in the order of their relative volumes. Or what if we got the lines mixed and some Chinese honey (oh, maybe it was Canadian!) got into the system, would we relabel the jars? Don't tickle me, those labels were printed possibly months before the jar was filled, and the only way they relate in any way to what goes into those jars is by intent. Have you heard what the Road to Hell is paved with? And the best laid plans of mice and men................ uh, how does that one go?

Another packer is marketing HONEY spread, with the word 'spread' not well featured on the label. Over the word HONEY in bold clear text, it reads '100% AUSTRALIAN.' The ingredients list (in 3 or 4 point text), reads, "Honey,water, sugar, pectin." A great product, no doubt, unless one was wanting honey, maybe to rub on his sunburn. Was the product 100%? or the bottle and label? or maybe the company that produced it? We have a policy here of "Truth in Advertising." The Authorities LOOK into it at times.

No doubt the police, industry officials, politicians, and consumer watchdogs are looking into lots of things. What a pity looking doesn't change things. We have what we call 'Royal Commissions" here too. Great talks fests indeed!

I would be studying the statistics there in Canada to verify that the production figures, the consumption figures and the importing figures are in the right columns. I occasionally read about how America is the food basket of the world, and how much honey she exports. No doubt she does export some honey, to the Bahamas, to her troops in Iceland etc., and perhaps, maybe to several small island states around about, but Arthur Anderson style accounting is still alive and well.

So Australia is Canada's second largest consumer, aye? We must be greedy little honey eaters here. Yet, not one bottle of honey have I see here that is labeled as being or containing, Canadian Honey. Would it be that an Australian company is buying that honey for processing and vending into Europe? Into the USA? What about back into Canada?

In musical chairs, the music always stops and there is never enough chairs to go 'round. Would that be the case if we tried to put gold to all the futures contracts, honey to all the statistics and assets to all the company shares? What about cash to all the Retirement Accounts, or hard assets to all the cyber money? Oh, well, we would have to ask the police to look into that too.

Figures don't lie, but Liars can figure.

Cheers and happy honey consuming!

JohnS

PS: Any worries with honey marketing? Let me have all your details and I will look into it!


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## Ian

There is a pretty big Australian honey packer located in Canada, packing honey from abroad, along with Canadian honey. Suppling the US and European market. Not sure how much honey they would be using from Australia, any thoughts?


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## Allen Dick

> Today 6.7 Argentinian pesos per Kg is equal to .87$US/pound. What would freight be? 15 to 20 cents per pound. What's the duty? Cause it sure looks like the Argentinian honey broker is the man to be in all of this.


Argentina has export taxes. Not sure if this applies to honey, but they have an export sytem there that costs the producer as well as the tax AFAIK. Maybe someone else can comment on that?


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## Ian

A far as I have been told, there is an exprot tax on all produce, Hence the farmer strikes!


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## jean-marc

The packer Capilano happens to be the Australian beekeeping Cooperative. When they first came into the Canadian market they were the lowest price on the shelf. I'm sure their members would not have been so happy to hear that. Half way around the world and they are the cheap brand. Kinda funny though. Now they've had some sort of restructuring, I think it had to do with losing money. So they are no longer associated with Labonte. Something about losing money and low price honey on the shelf, hmmm.

On another note the Canadian Beekeepers Cooperative "Beemaid" has been selling plenty of honey in China. The Chinese apparently like Canadian honey. Last I heard 1 year ago, all was going well in the 5 year plan. At the time, they were at the end of year 2. Apparently if they are still on track then after the 5 year plan there would not be enough Canadian honey to satisfy the Chinese market. Maybe the Chinese can figure a way out to ship honey to Canada, re-label it and ship it back to themselves as Canadian. Sounds like a pretty good plan, eh?

Jean-Marc


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## Allen Dick

> On another note the Canadian Beekeepers Cooperative "Beemaid" has been selling plenty of honey in China. The Chinese apparently like Canadian honey. Last I heard 1 year ago, all was going well in the 5 year plan. At the time, they were at the end of year 2. Apparently if they are still on track then after the 5 year plan there would not be enough Canadian honey to satisfy the Chinese market.


I always said North Americans were promoting in the wrong country, and that the promotion should be happening in China where the largest potential market is and promtion costs the least. 

Glad to see someone is doing it, and that it is working. Strange that it would be Beemaid, though, since they have bene such a laggard and price taker.


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## Ian

BeeMaids CEO mentioned at the last AGM, that if BeeMaid could tap into the top 1% of the Chinese market, their members couldnt produce enough extra white and white honey to satisfy it,

>>The Chinese apparently like Canadian honey. Last I heard 1 year ago, all was going well in the 5 year plan. At the time, they were at the end of year 2. Apparently if they are still on track then after the 5 year plan there would not be enough Canadian honey to satisfy the Chinese market

They are talking the extra white premium honey,
but ya, so much potential

One thing BeeMaid has going for them, is the are a cooperative honey packer, buying honey only from its members. Single source honey supplier, supplying honey only from the Canadian prairies. They can source their production to the producer, pin point any concerns if any arise


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## Allen Dick

Well, if you have ever tasted the "honey" packed and sold in China, you would not buy "honey" again. My wife bought me a jar when she was over there (complete with pictures of bees, etc.) and when we opened it we decided immediately that there was NO honey in it. It was awful.

I can see why the Chinese consumers would buy Canadian honey, or honey from any other country if they knew it was real and had tasted it once, AND they could be sure that the supplier was consistent.

Chinese customers tend to be quite shrewd, (justifyably) wary and expect value. Hey, they are just like any other consumers. 

All the advertising in the world can only get a person to try a product once. If that experience is bad, then the product fails.

The Chinese packers selling awful "honey" have done the market some harm, but if the consumers can differentiate that junk from real honey, the sky is the limit.


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## John Smith

*One more rant, then I will desist.*

Ian, Re: Msg. 101,
Plenty of thoughts, but no hard data. I was told that same company has packing plants in Argentina as well. I doubt if much Australian honey goes into North America owing to your preference for light flavor, but specialty lines of Eucalypt for the connoisseurs’ market may be bigger than I think. There are certainly a lot of Aussies living in California. I doubt if much white honey is required to come back in to Australia, as our average shelf pack will need lots of eucalypt flavor to fly well. In short seasons, mind you, some white would be welcome to soften the darker/stronger flavored grades. Mostly, I assume that company sells the bulk of its Australian input (mixed with what? only the gods would know) into Europe as Organic Honey, at considerably better prices. The Europeans are really hooked on that word Organic.

Jean-Marc (105)
For sure, honey is like gold, in as much as it circumnavigates the planet in the effort to reduce the impact of shortages and rising production costs. Traceability and proof of authenticity is scarcely possible. The paper trail and the official approvals at best looks like just another ‘license to cheat.’ In the case of gold, who cares? In the case of honey, Who Cares? If it were not for the lies we are fed about the honey market, even the beekeepers probably wouldn’t be so concerned about honey’s travels.

Re: 103/4,	
The big advantage the world’s buyers had in Argentina for so long was that the beekeepers there thought they were getting better prices for their honey owing to the inflation of their currency. Now that the inflation bubble has burst there, the farmers are a bit more awake. Anyone asleep in North America? There are plenty asleep here in Australia. They don’t realize that despite the rising dollar value of their honey, they are still losing margin. 

If you want a really good price for your honey sell it to Zimbabwe! You could be a millionaire overnight!

Allend (108),
Right ON! China is the best market for honey in the world! Owing to the length of time their society has been established, their beekeepers have been letting standards slip (for hundreds of years?) to the point where now, their honey is almost inedible to my taste too.

One main flaw is that they don’t let the honey ripen in the comb. At times (if my information is correct) they spin the combs on a daily basis. This unripened nectar ferments, the honey granulates rapidly and the syrup may be sold off locally from the top of the keg. This part I have seen with my own eyes. The Chinese poor cannot afford to eat honey any more so than the Americans can afford to hold gold. As an international commodity (much in demand, I might add) a pail of honey can cost many a price equal to a weeks wages.

However, despite popular beliefs, China has more rich people than any other nation. So if only 1% of them were offered good honey from your country or mine, I am sure they would go for it in a big way.

Another aside of interest, is that when you see a Chinese population in San Francisco (for instance) you may not notice that a percentage of them are constantly being recycled back through China. The point here is that quite a number of the Chinese in China have traveled and lived elsewhere and know what honey is supposed to be. 

It was reported in ‘Lonely Planet’ that no Chinese person has ever died in the UK, according to the births, deaths and marriages records. This is overstated, I am sure, but wait for it: The passports are constantly being mailed back to China! You can’t help but love the Chinese. They are the world’s masters at keeping their mouths shut while they get on with the business of prospering. Many centuries of oppressive governmental burdens have taught them this.

Governmental burdens? What’s that?

Cheers,
JohnS


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## irwin harlton

*John Smith , please keep your "rants" COMING*

Capalinao had trouble blending out the nitofurons a couple of years ago in their Argentina packing plants.If I remember correctly some of the tainted stuff ended up in Canada.
What does Eucalyptest honey sell for or pay the beekeeper in Aussie land? I think the taste may have been Capilano's downfall in Canada, that and the effort to be the cheapest product on a couple of grocery store chain shelfs broke them.
Heard BeeMaids Chinese market was a couple of container loads every 2 months....... be a long time emptying the Canadian honey crop at that rate........ this may or may not be true.




Irwin
Got no quarrel with those that sell for less........................they obviously know what their stuff is worth


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## Ian

>>couple of container loads every 2 months....... be a long time emptying the Canadian honey crop at that rate........ this may or may not be true.


Probably true, but its a start, and to build a reputation, you have to start somewhere,
That one percent quote was given just to give a sense of perspective,


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## John Smith

*Thanks, Irwin.*

Don’t wind me up too much, …………….you’ll get us both excommunicated!

Farm gate prices in New South Wales are about US$1.00 per pound for what we consider top quality (Yellow Box, being our favorite Eucalypt honey). Advertised prices and prices paid are not necessarily the same and most information is considered ‘private’ or ‘commercially sensitive.’

Caveat Emptor in reverse would be: Let the vendor beware. Few beekeepers here have an ‘asking price.’ Most adds ‘To Buy’ simply say, “Top Prices Paid.” Too many good years when Capilano was a young and beekeeper owned institution led the beekeepers to trust the buyers and not challenge the price. Now they have mostly lost any negotiating skills they may have once had.

Capilano is now one of the few publicly listed companies dedicated to honey. Their shares are in the toilet at the moment, but someone is still buying them. If the company survives this downturn, their shares could become as good as gold! Sheri questioned whether or not the Health aspect of the market would continue. My answer is an emphatic YES. Honey is set to go through the roof. The savy investor will soon be getting ‘primed up’ and buying their shares will be on the menu. I haven't bought any yet! I have my retirement money tied up in big barrels.

A license to cheat (Organic Producer Certification) can increase one’s price by 30 percent.

I advertised honey in drums to the commercial food industry and received nil responses. They appear to know they are buying glucose with a dash of honey and seem to have no interest in buying honey from beekeepers. I spoke to a person at a social event who worked in the Seventh Day Adventist food factory and he was most adamant that they put honey in the cereal they manufacture. The label on their product does not confirm this. So they obviously ‘call’ it honey there in the factory………. Oh yes, big drums of it coming in all the time! One can only wonder why they don’t put it on their mandatory ingredients list!

The supermarket is a strong market. Honey is priced on the shelf at or about 4 times its worth at the farm gate. Beekeepers who market direct some of their (or entire) product never had it so good. Entrepreneurial marketing has the sky for a limit, of course.

Big losses in foreign exchange futures are touted to have been the downfall of large honey consortiums here. The Aussie Dollar is pretty much at the mercy of the Gnomes of Zurich. Also, with lengthy contracts with Supermarket Chains, some had to jack prices up very high at one point to cover themselves. Either that or they hoped to squeeze the small packers out, but the net result was a heap of overpriced stock after a huge spring crop came in. Not being very smart, they attributed that to the higher prices offered. They obviously don't understand honey flows in a desert continent!

When everyone is losing, there is little fat in the fire for anyone. 

We have a strong immigrant population here, and they are an insatiable market for honey. 
I am very suspicious (of everything?) of the nitrofurans argument. Mostly we use our science to support our economic needs, not to protect our health. 

If we all knew how many legal carcinogens are in all the other factory foods we consume we would gag! It would be debatable that the Chinese population is less healthy than the North American one. Obesity is conspicuously absent there, anyway.
If North Americans eat less than one percent of their sugar intake as honey, I can’t see why a poison measured in parts per million (or billion?) is likely to cause any increase in anorexia!

If the Chinese and the Argentineans are using these nitrofurans, perhaps they are better antibiotics than those we manufacture and market in Westernized countries. After all, they have the big surpluses of honey and we are unable to produce enough for ourselves. But do our regulators have permission from the World Health Organization to accept Chinese antibiotics? The plot sickens! What is a carcinogen and what is not is subject to the judgment of the expert. We do not encourage feeding test over extended periods. Even our much vaunted ‘Toxicity’ tests are mainly carried out on the young, (university students?) who everyone knows can eat manure without much shock!

Ian Steppler has it Right (Msg.111). With confidence in our world’s institutions at an all time low, the only way the honey industry can regain its rightful market share is if we start at the beekeeper level and rebuild our market from there. That is why I am so excited about “The Honey Revolution.”

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225156&highlight=honey+revolution

Someone play “The Last Post” as I am out of here for a while! Would rather not destroy my welcome all at once!

Cheers,
JohnS


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## TwT

look at this

http://business.theage.com.au/business/climate-crises-to-sour-honey-prices-20090215-8840.html


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## irwin harlton

*world food crisis*

http://larouchepac.com/news/2009/02...ops-threatened-both-northern-and-souther.html


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## jean-marc

Odem was buying any Canadian honey at $1.60/lb last week and $1.75/lb for clover.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

That is a good price improvment.


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## JohnK and Sheri

jean-marc said:


> Odem was buying any Canadian honey at $1.60/lb last week and $1.75/lb for clover.
> Jean-Marc


You are talking C$, correct? That would be around $1.40 US, an improvement from what we have been offered recently, hoping this trend continues.
Sheri


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## irwin harlton

*at 1.60 /lb Canadian funds*

http://calc.customhouse.com/ratecalc/ratecalc.aspx?pid=1&curr=CAD&amount=1.6&refCurr=USD&

1.60can =1.27USD........... plus freight ,plus duty............ US or European packer getting a steal of a deal

or
http://www.xe.com/
Live rates at...
1 CAD = 0.804469 USD 1 USD = 1.24306 CAD


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## JohnK and Sheri

irwin harlton said:


> 1.60can =1.27USD.


Yeah, and 1.75CAD = $1.406US. I use xe also.
The $1.27 is a bit lower than we have been quoted. We too were told by a US Packer "We can get all the Canadian honey we want delivered for $1.25, but we don't want to leave out the US beekeeper". Nice of him, eh?
So even $1.27 looks like an improvement to me, and $1.40 for clover (which is what _we_ have) is heading towards where it peaked last year. Moving in the right direction at least.
Sheri


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## irwin harlton

*That cheap 1.25USD Canadian honey*

"We can get all the Canadian honey we want delivered for $1.25, but we don't want to leave out the US beekeeper". Nice of him, eh?



That cheap 1.25- 1.28USD Canadian honey

is rapidly evaporating............should be all gone by now.............only higher priced honey left, me thinks

I wonder how much the depression has crushed or shrunk demand IF AT all.......
Packers and brokers are playing the game well........... get as much now, as cheap as possible , cause down the road honey is going to be more costly.Bet they are all carrying short inventories infear of worse things to come in the economy


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## irwin harlton

*Argentina price up!*

http://www.apitrack.com/noticias/aaacotizacionmiel_es_open.htm


FROM 6.70 t0 6.90........................... as the big move begun?


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## Beeslave

*pure sweet honey company,verona,wi*

Couldn't hold off anymore! $1.30 lb ELA last 25 drums. Run out of Amish to by for $1.65 lb by the drum. Now the rest is sold they(amish) will be calling for another 10 drums tomorrow.


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## irwin harlton

*Cheap [email protected] .89/lb, by the drum,white*

close to Los Angeles, FOB Rowland Heights CA 91748. ............item found on Bee L,

The old chinese limbo game..........how low can we go.......... organic from Mongolia, or it would be lower priced.......... currently being tested for everthing under the sun........sold by Mega Farms


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## Ian

Sell your honey now while its high boys,


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## jean-marc

Me thinks it's going higher yet. The full impact of a short Argentina crop has yet to be felt. Keep in mind that this man sold his honey a long time ago.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

ha, no doubt.
much easier to make these kind of decisions on the side lines


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## irwin harlton

*Argentina ups price again*

http://apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm

ARGENTINA- INCREASING THE PRICE PAID TO HONEY PRODUCERS
As reported by the Grain Stock Exchange in Buenos Aires today, has increased the producer price per kilogram of honey, export quality, kg per drum to $ 7.50 (+8.7%), equivalent to 2.10 U.S. dollars per kilogram (+6%). According to the calculations of the beekeeper Jorge Cargnelutti, this figure would show a value of exports from Argentina to dollars $ 2.69 per kilogram and an apparent value in the global market of 3.2 dollars per kilogram (without a net import surcharges)

We are now back to the price that was being offered in oct 2008......... will rise continue on further news of the poor crop?....... US packers were buying domestic honey cheaper last fall


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## jean-marc

It is sure nice to see prices that approach profitibality. If this continues we might even get a return on the investment.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

I have been reading cropping reports of world weather conditions. This past year showed some unfavourable conditions, resulting in production deficits, yet there still has been a huge amount of food produced world wide.
Predictions for subsequent cropping conditions are favourable. So much so that there is the feeling of an abundance of food produced.
IF this is the case, we are probably looking at a decrease in food commodities into the next year. That is IF, remember, IF this doesn't hold true, then we stay in the black. From what I have been observing over the last few years is that honey production does tend to follow the same rules as cropping production. No crop, no honey. Lots of crop, lots of honey.

All I am saying, is look at the charts. This is a high price paid for honey. Might want to take it while its high. Sell old crop at a high price, sell new crop after its in your drums. Dont put all your eggs in one basket,


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## wildbranch2007

wife went to the super market the other day, they are selling 5lb jars for $9.49..... She didn't check the label but will next time, anyone know how much it costs to get honey checked for contaminents?? or where?

mike


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## suttonbeeman

wildbranch....ABF(american beekeeping federation)has tesing available for free. If you are not a member I'm not sure but you may call them (google web site). If not a member I encourage you to join. Also we need to get the honey standard passed in each state. This is the standard that FDA said they didnt have enough time to do. It gives a legal defination of honey and gives beekeepers or othewr injured parties the right to sue the adulterator for damages. Just passed in Florida. Guess we should start a thread on here about this. Sure would help out prices....no more "honey syrup". Ill get one going today or soon about it and what ou can do! Rick


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## jean-marc

The honey standard will certainly change the honey market. The ability to sue the packer who sells adulterated/contaminated honey will change the way things are done. I also wonder what unintended consequences this will have on the market? I guess time will tell.


Jean-Marc


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## Ian

>>Sure would help out prices....no more "honey syrup".

not sure what you mean on that, honey syrup isnt illegal,
Passing it off as pure honey is though,
I am assuming your refering to Chinese honey in regards to that.


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## slickbrightspear

my father was not paying attention and went to the store and bought what he thought was a jar of honey, after he got home and looked at it it is imitation honey. I have not had a chance to look at it yet and see what it is but it is not honey. he says honey was written real big and imitation was real small in a corner.


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## Ian

ya that sucks!

but its not illegal, not until the government changes the regulation in regards to that issue.


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## irwin harlton

*NASS 2008 honey crop report released*

http://www.usda.gov/nass/PUBS/TODAYRPT/hony0209.txt


Reactions in 2008 to Nass HONEY REPORT
www.nass.usda.gov/research/reports/...cial_Release_of_the_NASS_Honey_Publication.pd...............
............ NO REACTION , low import prices determine the market price?


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## jean-marc

Irwin:

You're second posting "Reaction to ...." is not coming up something about illegal gateway. See even the computers get in on the action at the mere mention of chinese honey.


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## irwin harlton

*sorry bad link, try google for that reaction pdf*

Essentially the reaction to the annual NASS report is ziltch, it does not affect the market according to NASS...........how much the recession will affect the demand for honey is the big question........Packers would like producers to believe their is a limit to the price they can put it on the shelf for.............and their is a limit no doubt, but what is that limit , is it 1.50 1.75 1.85
Will the shortage increase this shelf price limit?

Producer honey stocks were 50.4 million pounds on December 15, 2008, down 4 percent from a year earlier.This is not alot of influence on the total market of 388-450 million lbs of which 265 million is imported.Alot of chinese either legal or illegally transhipped honey is in that imported honey .................keeping the price low


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## cleareyes

*NASS 2008 honey crop report released*

The link was missing the f for. pdf

http://www.nass.usda.gov/research/r...ial_Release_of_the_NASS_Honey_Publication.pdf


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## Trevor Mansell

suttonbeeman said:


> wildbranch....ABF(american beekeeping federation)has tesing available for free. If you are not a member I'm not sure but you may call them (google web site). If not a member I encourage you to join. Also we need to get the honey standard passed in each state. This is the standard that FDA said they didnt have enough time to do. It gives a legal defination of honey and gives beekeepers or othewr injured parties the right to sue the adulterator for damages. Just passed in Florida. Guess we should start a thread on here about this. Sure would help out prices....no more "honey syrup". Ill get one going today or soon about it and what ou can do! Rick


 From what I heard it did not pass in Florida.


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## irwin harlton

*Argentina HONEY PRODUCTION WILL BE AT 50% THAN NORMAL*

http://apitrack.com/noticias-607_en_news.htm. .................this should drive prices higher


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## irwin harlton

*Argentina price increase ...again*

http://www.apitrack.com/noticias/aaacotizacionmiel_es_open.htm

increase from 7.70 to 8.0 in Argentina pesos, 1USA dollar = 3.5576 pesos, price is per kilogram


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## jean-marc

So translated into American 8 pesos per kg at the rate Irwin was quoting equals 
$U.S.2.25/Kg or $1.02/lb. That's price paid to producer I believe. It wasn't that long ago I remeber Irwin posting 6.30 pesos per kg. That's about a 25% increase in price in less than 2 months. Hmmm, makes you wonder.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

My honey buyer was mentioning the trade of honey is steady at 1.5$/lbs Canadian, and there have been honey trades of larger quantities of white honey for up to 1.75$/lbs Canadian.
We are sitting in a bull market right now, with stronge fundimental support.
Its going to take the next productive season to break this trend, whens the next significant honey crop reported to come in?


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## jean-marc

Northern hemisphere crop, july august by my way of seeing things.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

*re Argentina price*

I am not sure what this price puts Argentina honey at, say landed in New York, but the packers are holding their cards close , seem to be feeding themselves hand to mouth , and are going to buy where ever is the cheapest, and the cheapest last fall and now seems to be USA and Canada........... panic buying mode has not set in yet, due probably to the economic conditions........ haven't heard of any downturn in sales from any sellers.... Canadian broker figures there is not a lot of honey left in Canada


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## Ian

>>Northern hemisphere crop, july august by my way of seeing things.

So if the Southern hemisphere has already shown all its cards, and the next crop to come in July, we are looking at May June being the next significant cropping forecast to influence the market place. How about Chinas honey crop, when does there next crop come in?

Is Chinese incoming honey being held back? Or have they seen a smaller crop aswell?
I know most of their wheat producing provinces have experienced major dryness. So much so there wheat production forcasts have been almost cut in half. I would have to assume that would reflect on their honey production within that area, and its a big area. Is there any mention of this within the honey market news?


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## irwin harlton

*Ron Phipps news...................HOT*

http://www.americanhoneyproducers.org/

Thursday, March 12, 2009 

World Honey Market Report by Ron Phipps March 2009

World Honey Market Report by Ron Phipps January 2009 Click here.

Ron Phipps Market Update
February 3, 2009 Click here.


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## irwin harlton

*Ron Phipps honey market report march 19 2009*

http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e365/buzz1356/?actio


Markets have become , shall I say volatile.............canadian dollar went from 1.25 US to 1.22 on friday............ just how weak will the US dollar become????????
and over 1.50 for Argentina 85mm...........maybe their trying to sell that dark stuff too cheap lol


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## irwin harlton

*Agri Foods to benefit from falling dollar*

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/schmidt/2009/0324.html
the cheaper food as a result of a falling US dollar will create more demand and higher prices


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## wildbranch2007

irwin harlton said:


> the cheaper food as a result of a f...the price of honey it hurts it??
> thanks mike


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## jean-marc

Wrong. If chinese honey does not change in price, then the packer who purchased chinese honey say at $1.00/lb (I'm assuming he has converted his US dollars into chinese currency and paid for the honey in chinese currency). Today the same packer wants to purchase more honey but his US dollar is now only worth 90 cents because in the drop of the currency value. If the price of the chinese honey has not changed then the US packer has to come up with about 10% more money for the same honey.

Jean-Marc


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## John Smith

*Compared to What?*

Measuring currencies against each other will drive one mad. When there is no fixed value in anything, what does one compare to? The French use the word, 'numeraire,' meaning 'that by which one measures all else.'

Unfortunately we commoners are programmed to measure everything by our local Legal Tender. It is a trap and we must quit it. You are playing hard ball against experts when you try to beat the currency markets.

When all of the corks bobbing up and down in the ocean start claiming to be the highest one, or the ONLY one at mean sea level or the one closest to hell, you can pretty much say they are all lying.

Altitude in China is not measured from mean sea level. It is measured from the paving outside the Imperial Palace, which is not that far removed from sea level, but obviously still above it.

The is one caution that applies to ALL transactions known as 'trade.' It is called, Caveat Emptor.

There is no such thing as a level playing field. If you are dishonest, you rob banks, but if you are honest, the bank robs from you. Welcome to the real world. Always deal with someone sillier than you are and you will make easy money.

And remember the two great rules:

1)Never give out everything at once!

Cheers,

John


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## irwin harlton

*JOHN , what is Capilanios secret*

John, I would love to know how Capilanio can buy Canadian bulk honey ,ship it to Australia, blend it with supposidly Austrailian honey, ship the packed product back to canada or north america and still be cheaper than any Canadian packed honey on the shelf......... the wonders of cheap world trade and shipping or maybe a little cheap chinese honey involved somewhere......... this big public owned packer didn't get to be big by being Mr Nice guy.... and his huge losses the last couple of years should make him even more cautious....... maybe all the money being made is in the exchange rate on the aussie dollar?sOME VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN IN THE hONEY INDUSTRY


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## Joel

John Smith said:


> And remember the two great rules:
> 
> 1)Never give out everything at once!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> John


Nice Post John but what's the 2nd rule?


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## John Smith

*Antarctic Honey & Ponzi Schemes*

Capilano is not a private company. Profit on that particular line of honey may not be their sole motivating factor. Capilano (in my humble opinion <imho>) is being groomed up to profit from a coming surge of interest in the world of honey............ and that profit is not necessarily to come from selling honey, it will come from selling shares. It will eventually be crashed as a hollow shell after the manipulators have siphoned off all its assets and milked the gullible public who will eventually own all the shares. You have seen the white ants eat many companies this way, I am sure.

Someone is slowly buying up all the shares from all the original shareholders, who incidentally were beekeepers, as it was built to be a producer owned enterprise. However, once the founders retired and the business too aged, it fell into the hands of the managerial cult, who only know how to rape businesses for profit, not love them for their creative potential. The movie “Pretty Woman” was all about this type of mentality. The sex in that movie was just the brocade gown it was wrapped in.

If carbon credits became a reality, such honey ‘laundering’ would soon be revealed as having far too high a carbon footprint. Such a reality could upset a very great many enterprises, so there is no guarantee that the best of these managers will succeed in their efforts to make off with a nice severance parcel. 

Capilano has as good a chance of succeeding as any, (imho), owing to the very high degree of credibility and hardnosed reality there is in the honey industry generally as well as in that particular brand name. Their shares should be easier to merchandise than their honey, as people would much rather have some paper assets for their hard earned money than pay a little extra for some good honey.

Nearly nine percent of wages paid in Australia is compulsorily kept back from the worker and invested in retirement funds for them. We call it Superannuation in Australia. This creates a massive flood of capital looking for a safe place to be invested (yes, every payday), which of course makes the stock market shine. Already for years now, there is a scramble on to create enough paper companies to issue enough stock to absorb this flood of capital. One ‘public’ company was floated to operate brothels…………….. Its shares soared the first day it hit the market. I can’t tell you just what happened after that as I have not followed its success or otherwise (some of those girls could be sitting on a fortune now!). But the average company life (publicly listed) is only about ten years here. So you can see why a company with the sound grounding of a honey consortium (now having grown to be an international one) and also one with a contracted supplier base, almost a psychologically captive one, will fly well once all the shares are in the right pockets.

Capilano also pack cane sugar products. You are welcome to make whatever you like out of that. But honey lost its edge a hundred or more years ago owing to there being more profit in factory sugars, so maybe the Golden Syrup (as we call it here) is carrying the company while they make losses establishing their overseas markets for honey. No doubt you have heard how difficult it is to dispose of such a massive glut of honey each year!

A considerable amount of Manuka honey is imported into Australia too, often to mix with our local equivalent but one which didn’t get the leading edge on the market as far as the naming game goes. Our Ti Tree honey originally was licensed under the trade name, Medi-Honey, but that brand and the company that owned it was sold by Capilano to the Kiwis, so the international wonders of how the lord does brings things to pass never seems to end, aye?

If you really want to know how strange this honey industry is, you need to read that book, The Honey Spinner, by an Australian author, Grace Pundyk. Honey is so primary, so basic, and yet so magical it is almost in the class with romance and witchcraft and the Tales of Neptune. Lunacy is the word!

I wouldn’t worry overmuch about Capilano’s reported losses. No doubt they make some at times, but it is probably very much in their interest at the moment to be crying poor. Profits and losses at that level are easily managed for fun and profit. Do you remember Arthur Andersen? Spread sheets can be terribly confusing; there are simply so many columns!

Europe is so hungry for the word “organic” I am sure they would buy synthetic honey, even so labeled, if it also had the word ‘organic’ printed on it in large, gold and bold type.

Australia’s reputation of being so under-populated, remote, clean and green, gives us quite a strong standing as a honey marketer. Brazil is only coming into its own as an organic source owing to Australia’s inability to supply (imho). Their droughts are a few seasons behind ours, so it will be interesting to discover just what we can mix with our dark honey to make it fly in the world’s supermarkets. It may matter little from whence it came as long as a Kangaroo brought it. But don’t be alarmed if the shares go up in the companies that make mirrors, because we are going to be doing a lot with mirrors in the years to come.

If you find that absurd, just do some Googling and find out what the critics are saying about human-like insulin. I may write a few lines on that one myself soon. You will have to wade into pretty deep water to find those critics, mind you, as the big money is on the side of the product’s patent owners.

The bigger question still hangs over these super hospital-friendly medical products being developed and sold under brand names as Super Honey, bigger and better than just common ole honey. They could become our best market for real honey if it was required of them to feed their bees a smidgen or two of real honey, from floral sources.

Australia has not produced any great crop of white honey for many years now. What little we do get is sorely needed to lighten our Eucalypt honeys so a standard golden line can be maintained. So it is very convenient to be able to say, if cornered, "Oh yes, we did have to bring in a little bit of Canadian White for blending purposes. Was that last year, or was that the year before?" If you reckon that might not fly, just compare it with how convinced you and yours are that your honey is coming back to you!#@!$%. ........or did it ever leave North America? Capilano have a packing plant in Canada too!

Irwin, I decided long ago to leave the running of the world to the Gnomes of Zurich as it is far more difficult to fathom that project than it is to work out what the lord wants. So I just watch and listen (and spill my guts on occasion) and put my own price on my honey and wait and see if anyone will buy it. I am nowhere near generous and public spirited enough to sell it at or below my costs. Either I get paid as well as the girl next door, or I don’t work. 

Or, as our Prime Minister says, ………..Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, ………………….Thank You, Thank You, Thank You, ………… I Knew It, I Knew It, I Knew It, …………………….

Neehow!

John

PS: Please send our PM back home. His show here needs him.


----------



## GemBeeHoney

*Dark honey*

Please stop blending light coloured honey with my dark stuff to make it more marketable.
The only question I get asked here is if the bees were near sugar cane , because that makes the honey darker and less flavoursome. 
Not within 200km!
Even a good bee wont fly that far.
I like my dark(er) honey. I like the coolibah and the lemon scented gum even the stingy wilga. There is enough ironbark to lighten it up. 
Keep your whites and extra whites away. 
Market your Dark honey as organic/gourmet honey - charge a premium. It will fly off the shelves. Get a celebrity chef to love it! Even better.

Honey has variety - its like wine. No two seasons the same no two regions the same. It's the marketing thats crap not the product.

Martyn


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## irwin harlton

*Labonte and Capilanio*

have parted company, remain closely tied in some marketing endeavours, Capilanio now packing its products in Ausssie land and shipping from there. Usually lowest shelf priced honeys have something all in common , a cheaper chinese honey content, and or adultration of the honey making for more profit for the packer


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## irwin harlton

*Ron Phipps MARCH 19 REPORT*

HONEY MARKET UPDATE

March 19, 2009

Ronald P. Phipps





The recent surge in honey prices from South America have caused many to ask why prices are rising so steeply and so quickly when the nation is under such economic stress. I think the rise is too precipitous. For example, we received offers from Argentina this week for combinations of honey that include 1 container of White 34MM, 1 container of 50MM, 4 containers of 60MM, 2 containers of 70MM, and 8 containers of 85MM at over USD1.50/lb., ex-dock. Shipments from Vietnam have been delayed and new offers are presently hard to find. Ex-dock prices East Coast have risen to about USD1.10/lb. Brazilian offers for conventional white honey have been reached USD1.50/lb. and conventional ELA honey USD1.40/lb.. These increases stand in sharp contrast to the low prices of all the Chinese honey that has been circumvented into the U.S.A. through one form of circumvention or another.

What is happening to cause such steep increases of South American honey prices is Europe is turning its attention to Brazil given the consequences of the severe drought in Argentina and the consequence absence of white honey. Yesterday, the Federal Reserve injected another astonishing U.S. one trillion dollars into the economy by purchasing a massive amount of Treasury Bonds. As suggested in earlier market reports, a dramatic increase in money supply portends both: a) de-value the U.S. Dollar and b) a change from deflationary pressures into inflationary pressures. The U.S. Dollar has now reversed its earlier strengthening and is weakening relative to all major currencies. Essential commodities such as petroleum and agricultural commodities are rising in price. 



While people can suspend or delay purchase of luxury goods, people can neither suspend nor delay eating. Demand remains active and strong. This is the good news. Changes in currency valuations, including a significant strengthening of the Euro relative to the U.S. Dollar as the money supply of U.S. Dollar has increased is playing a significant role in the surge of honey prices from South America. Short and darker crops in Argentina, increased demand from Europe and the fall in the U.S. Dollar underlie what would otherwise be aberrational increases in the market.


added by me ............. Argentina has suffered in the past from its own high inflation and currancy devaluation plus the anti dumping duty which is included in to the brokers offerings. Offerings are not sales and current sales of US and Canadian honey are lower priced and the volume left to sell is definitely small


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## irwin harlton

*recent voltality in the Canadian exchnge rate*

and the US dollar value in its index, show me getting a better return from a Canadian Broker than selling and shippnig directly to a US packer,....hmmmmmmm 
Two possible reasons for this price disparity.
1 The broker is stockpiling in anticipation of future price increases,hardly likey or
2The broker is receiving a better price than me from the packer ,on account of the volume and the packer broker relationship 

I can see why a packer loves these brokers, easy to pick up 10-20 loads from one entity than dealing with 20 beekeepers and besides they both belong to that exculusive club ,the National Honey board , which is funded by you and I.So the packers and brokers are close, or in bed with one another.This close relationship is readily seen when the reputable packer refuses the contaminated chinese honey but does not report this honey to the FDA,as it should be by law.That whole thing is futher complicated by the fact there is no clear definition of the product honey in US law
The packers do not want to offend this valuable buying tool
The packers think they really need these people and they probably do serve some usefull purpose like tits on a bull.The percentage of all honey sold by brokers,is probably quite high as compared to the amount sold by Beekeepers to packers.To me, I think of them as a parasite,perhaps maybe useful somewhere , but only looking after themslves and not really being a great asset to the industry from the producers side.I personally think in the present market,US, Canadian brokers are helping the packers hold down the price of domestic honey.
Just look at the Argentina offerings and the current packer offering's on domestic honey.... they are 10 cents apart


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## irwin harlton

*Ned W. Schmidt bullish on agrio-foods*

http://www.safehaven.com/article-7708.htm

I agree with Ned , with more disposable income available in China, more and better food will be bought,more of their domestic honey will be bought and eaten, and more honey will be imported in to china.

Supply and demand tells me the US market should be rising , and recent offers from Argentina
for both white and dark @1.50 confirm these brokers know alot about the supply side and are not afraid to ask for what they figure there product is worth.
The negatives are only packers fearing the economic and financial problems and the effects of high priced product in the large industrial market,which has always been fed by lower priced lower grade honey.The Industrial ,bakery trade market may just crash and burn as it has in the past,.Seems there is more value in putting the word HONEY in your ingredients than paying a good price for the honey.
Current news:, Canadian packer buying at 1.75,picked up at sellers dock,,freight paid by buyer,drums lost............. this is ..... as far as I know..... better than any US offers
I think the price will rise further and faster.......... there is NOT alot of white honey out there , there is NOT alot of honey in the world period


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## irwin harlton

*lawsuit launched*

USA- FIVE AMERICAN FOOD PRODUCERS FILE A 1 BILLON DOLLARS LAWSUIT, FOR ALLEGED DAMAGES CAUSED BY CHINESE PRODUCTS
Five American food product producers file a $1-billion dollars lawsuit seeking class-action status against a handful of major insurance companies and the U.S. government for alleged damages caused by dumped Chinese food products. The five producers are Sioux Honey Association, Adee Honey Farms, Monterey Mushrooms Inc., The Garlic Co. and Beaucoup Crawfish of Eunice Inc.


http://www.apitrack.com/


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## JohnK and Sheri

My first initial reaction is "WOW!", anything that slows imports means a price spike here.
So what are the alleged damages? Are they talking unfair pricing due to dumping again? Damages from contamination/adulteration?
I can see lawsuits to strongly encourage enforcement of rulings already in place, and to close the loopholes but why the insurance companies?
I would love additional details if any are available.
Sheri


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## Ian

>>government for alleged damages caused by dumped Chinese food products. The five producers are Sioux Honey Association, Adee Honey Farms, Monterey Mushrooms Inc., The Garlic Co. and Beaucoup Crawfish of Eunice Inc.

Now the dirt hits the fan! This is kind of what has been discussed around here a while back. What was happening, or what seemed to be happening didnt quite make much sence ,


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## irwin harlton

*price going up in S.A.?*

translated from http://www.noticiasapicolas.com/index.htm



Drive up the honey in the entire region. Should sell honey at the moment?

NoticiasApicolas.com (17 de Abril de 2009) Esta es la frase que muchos apicultores mencionan en esta epoca. NoticiasApicolas.com (April 17, 2009) This is the phrase that many beekeepers mentioned at this time. Desde mails, llamados por telefono a nuestra redaccion ya los periodistas de Apicultura sin Fronteras hasta los mensajes de texto son el reflejo sobre lo que le preocupa al apicultor en este momento. From mails, phone calls to our editors and journalists of Beekeeping Without Borders to the text messages are a reflection of what the beekeeper is concerned at this time.
Como te lo dijimos en nuestro medio ,y lo podes corroborar en nuestra seccion de economia apicola, el mercado de la miel en Sudamerica despues de Semana Santa empezó a moverse en alza nuevamente. As I said in our midst, and we can verify in our economy Apicola, the market for honey in South America after Easter began to move upward again.

Ranking of the prices paid in Brazil

Paraná (US$ 2,76 / kg de miel) Paraná (U.S. $ 2.76 per kilogram of honey)

Rio Grande do Sul ( US$ 2,66 / kg) Rio Grande do Sul (U.S. $ 2.66 / kg)

Ceará (2,40 US$ / kg) Ceará (2.40 U.S. $ / kg)

Pais que mas pago la miel de Brasil Countries most payment honey Brazil

Alemania 2,82 dólares Germany $ 2.82 US$ / kg U.S. $ / kg

El Reino Unido 2,59 The United Kingdom 2.59 US$ / kg U.S. $ / kg


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## the buzz

*any honey out there?*

Hi guys, I'm running low, don't know if I'll make it to July. I produce about 20 tons but my reserves are running out. How much a lb for 2 tons?
thanks, stephen


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## irwin harlton

*Ron Phipps honey report april 30 09*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeanne Bowe [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:18 PM
To: 'CPNA'
Subject: FW: Honey Market Report - from Ron Phipps


Comments on today’s international honey market:

Brazil
The demand on Brazilian honey in Europe has increased. This is due to two factors: 1) the Euro remains strong relative to the US dollar allowing the Europeans to pay higher US dollar prices for Brazilian honey and 2) the lack of honey supply from Argentina. Some areas in the northeast are reporting low yields per hive while other areas are experiencing normal yields.
1) The crop in South of Brazil was smaller than expected due to heavy rains in the three first months of the year. Also in the North of Brazil at the production region, there was rain, not as heavy as in the South but enough rain to make a better resulting yield per hive.
2) The average yield in Brazil is 25 kgs. The yield per hive depends on the region of Brazil. In general, the North and Northeast have better yields due hot temperatures all year long and also due to the use of bees with higher productivity. Even in the South of Brazil which is the colder region and in the North of Paraná province, there are hot temperatures all year long and producers are getting greater productivity. In these regions it is possible to get 50 kgs. of honey per hives. 
3) The Brazilian bees are Africanized which protects them against diseases. No problems have been found at all.
4) The demand is strong. European countries are pressing for honey after such a long time waiting for Brazil to come back to the market.
5) Despite the fact that the President of Brazil says that there is no crisis in Brazil, it is not the real situation. 
Companies in different sectors are firing employees and the economy is slowing as in other parts of the world. This is a normal reaction to the world crisis. Brazil is a supplier of different products for many different countries, so if there is a recession on the world, Brazil will be hit as well. In spite of the crisis, the Brazilian honey sector has a good advantage. EU demand is getting back to normal.
6) The USA is the main destination of Brazilian honey. Around 55 to 60% of the honey exported has this destination. Only 30% goes to the EU due to the strict rules, and 10-15% is shared between other countries including Japan and the Middle East.

The costs of production in Brazil are higher than in Argentina, China and other countries. The profit is still too short therefore discouraging production. There are producers holding honey and betting the price can rise. We are in the end of Eucalyptus crop and starting the period between crops. The next crop will be only in September when the spring starts in Brazil.
A significant speculative tone has entered the Brazilian honey market with honey being either sold to Europe at high prices or held by producers and exporters anticipating a new surge in prices.

The information above was provided by our esteemed friend in Brazil this week.

Argentina
The situation in Argentina is only a little short of a disaster; this refers not only to the current honey crop, but also to the economic, social and political situation as a whole.
The tail end of Argentina’s honey crop was very poor since the drought, which was the worst in half a century, persisted into March. The crop was 20%-25% smaller than last year’s small crop. That means the total crop was 50,000MT-55,000MT, 13,300MT of which was shipped from January to March 2009. Up to 60% of the reduced total crop is already sold. Each year for the past 3 to 4 years, Argentina’s honey crop has been reduced and the number of bee colonies has fallen. Most of Argentina’s honey crop is exported to Europe (Germany, France, Italy and England) and only a small amount is sold to the U.S.A.

The crop is mostly dark with very little white honey available. There is no clover since clover is a shallow rooted plant that could not withstand the extreme drought of 2008/2009. The best quality white honey available is 34MM from the deeper rooted and more drought resistant clover and thistle plants.

The decline in Argentina’s excellent clover honey is directly linked to decrees to restrict the export of cattle, beef and dairy products. Fields of clover and alfalfa that once supported the cattle and dairy industries in Argentina have been converted to soybean production. Not only cattle, but also Argentina’s traditional large production of wheat has declined 50%.

As Argentine honey friends have aptly put it, “Even at what were seen as ‘dream prices’ honey production declines.” Contracts from 2007/2008 for Argentine white honey that were not shipped and were to be fulfilled from the 2008/2009 crop were re-negotiated for mixes generally 25% white 34MM and 75% ELA. The overall situation in Argentina’s economic condition and the global economic crisis suggests Argentina will continue to be an important cause of the global shortage of white honey.

Vietnam
The Vietnamese rubber honey crop is nearing its conclusion. Since this is Vietnam’s largest floral source for honey, demand is strong and prices are firming weekly.

Vietnam’s honey crop is short by 30% compared to last year totals at this time. The greatest difficulty has been weather. At beginning of the crop, there was a long cold period that was immediately followed by continuous rain which has produced a yield per hive of only 20kgs or 44 lbs. There is now a secondary crop of Acacia and Lychee honey coming in; however the supply is small and the demands, especially from the US, are strong.

Monitoring Program
We are very pleased to announce that we heard from Vietnam today that the Vietnamese Ministry of Agriculture has officially issued a circular about a monitoring program for the export of Vietnamese honey. This program is designed to help prevent circumvention of Chinese honey through Vietnam.
This important development will help preserve the good reputation of Vietnam and its legitimate and legal honey industry. It may also serve as an excellent model for other countries which are being used by unscrupulous exporters, importers and packers to collude and commit customs fraud and violate international law in order to avoid the high antidumping duties on Chinese honey.

With the help of leaders of Congress and the State Department, our colleagues Barbara Sheehan and James Phipps held meetings in Vietnam a month ago with officials from the U.S.A. Embassy in Hanoi and then the Vietnamese Ministry of Agriculture, including its Vice-Minister.

The development of a monitoring program reflects the pro-active cooperation between the two countries to establish exchange of scientific data and strict control of honey exports. This is a very positive development which has been realized through the help of the leaders of the Vietnamese Beekeepers’ Association and our colleagues Barbara Sheehan and James Phipps. We believe this is a vital step in bringing stability and fairness to the American honey market.

Canada
The 2008 Canadian crop was short and heavy supplies are exhausted.

U.S.A.
The protracted drought conditions in California threaten both the orange and sage crops. Yields are very low. Florida’s honey crop has started out with excellent quality orange honey. But the crop as a whole is short. With the absence of Argentine white honey, no less clover honey, the prices for U.S. clover have risen recently to $1.50/lb.-$1.55/lb.

The U.S.A. remains a two tiered market as very cheap honey widely believed to be Chinese honey is transshipped from third countries which do not produce the quantities or types of honey exported to the U.S.A. market.
An interesting article, which is attached, appeared in the press recently regarding Chinese products that enter the U.S.A. fraudulently. The key point is that the U.S. authorities are holding responsible not merely the distributors but also those who collude to purchase fraudulently entered merchandise. The U.S.A. honey industry, as a whole, is hopeful U.S. Customs will be successful in their attempts to stop circumvention.
For those who blithely dismiss the vulnerability of who purchase fraudulently entered goods, it is worth noting the following quote a The New York Times article : 

“Mr. Hynes said the investigation into the counterfeit ring was continuing and would not be limited to the distributors. He said his office had seized business ledgers kept at the warehouse and warned that those who purchased the counterfeit goods there would not escape scrutiny. 

“This time we have books and records,” he said. “The people who have been dealing with this crowd are going to be at risk as well.”

For those who dismiss circumvention as a continuing problem, it may be relevant to note that in January, 2009, 1,270,484 pounds of honey was entered at $0.37/lb. and 550,431 pounds at $0.516/lb. Similar distortions are found for undervalued honey from several nations that lack both history and conditions for producing the quantities and types of honey exported to the U.S.A. at prices dramatically below market. These facts are widely known throughout the industry. As the song says, “The beat goes on.”

Europe
The New York Times, April 27, 2009, Group Sounds Alarm on European Bee Industry, reported as follows:
“Europe’s beekeeping industry could be wiped out in less than a decade as bees fall victim to disease, insecticides and intensive farming", the international beekeeping body Apimondia said on Monday.
“With this level of mortality, European beekeepers can only survive another 8 to 10 years,” Gilles Ratia, the president of Apimondia, told Reuters.
“We have had big problems in southwest France for many years,” he said, but the problem had extended to Italy and Germany.
Last year, about 30 percent of Europe’s 13.6 million hives died, according to Apimondia figures. Losses reached 50 percent in Slovenia and as high as 80 percent in southwest Germany.

….Apimondia’s scientific coordinator, Gerald Arnold, cites two main factors responsible for weakening bee colonies: insecticides and the parasitic mite Varroa. Once weakened, Mr. Arnold said, the hives were then wiped out by other diseases.”
These are long term tendencies that underlie both: 1) the European demand for South American honey and 2) the real possibility that we are entering a period of an international shortage of honey and a sharp inflation of honey prices.

Conclusion
While there is clearly the possibility of an international shortage of white and darker honeys along with rising prices, consumption has stayed strong despite the global economic and financial crisis. This is due to the fact that honey is a healthy and traditional food whose annual per capita costs are modest. People can cancel or postpone purchase of luxury goods, but we do not have the capacity to restrain from eating. Demand for honey, therefore, is very likely to exceed supply.

CPNA International, Ltd.
100 Jericho Quadrangle, Suite 228
Jericho, New York 11753
Tel: (516) 935-3880
Fax: (516) 935-3959
e-mail: [email protected]

OK who's paying 1.50 delivered?............ ANY COMMENTS
A US packer I talked to a couple of months ago called Ron's reports overly optimistic on the price going up.He was stuck at 1.43 for 20mm or better


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## JohnK and Sheri

Who's paying $1.50? I saw that figure and wondered the same thing. I think it might be someone selling to a small packer in small drum numbers. None of the big packers were there yet when we did the calling around thing.

BUT, the price will definitely go up now as we just sold a couple loads at $1.46. w/ no drum exchange. They send back junk anyway.
Plan is to hold out for $1.50+ on the rest of it.
We are still getting calls from some big packers looking for white honey, quoting $1.40-$1.45.
Good luck to us all.
Sheri


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## wildbranch2007

Penn. packer paying 1.55 for light not necessarily white honey in barrels, two friends are delivering tomorrow. Too bad I don't have any left. same packer was paying .95 last year

mike


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## JohnK and Sheri

wildbranch2007 said:


> Penn. packer paying 1.55 for light not necessarily white honey in barrels, mike


Told ya so! Y'all can thank us, lol.
That price was at the packer's dock?
I am assuming this is the same packer that had a tantrum only a couple months ago about high priced honey and said they'd never pay $1.50 . Hmmmm, the pendulum do swing. Maybe we'll give her a call, or maybe wait til it goes up another $.20 or so. For all the talk of a severe worldwide shortage, there hasn't been that big of a move in prices. There has been talk of $2.00 white honey, anyone think it'll ever get there?
Sheri


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## The Honey Householder

I sold my last 11 barrel back on 3-24-09 for $1.55 a lb. Last Aug I was getting $1.70 a lb. from my small packers. Those that buy from me this year, I'll give you a heads up. The first of the crop off will start higher then last year. My cost is up 15% this year so the price should go up the same 15%. Looking forward into next years raise in bee price, I should raise my price 30%.:lookout: 

Any takers!!!!:applause:

Ron


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## JohnK and Sheri

Ron, we sell small lots for more than $1.50 also. I'm talking semi loads, on the open market, not contracted, 65-67 drums. But yeah, keep us posted. 
30% increase? From $1.50? I'm all for that. 
Sheri


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## irwin harlton

*2 dollar a lb honey may not be to far away*

http://www.skamberg.com/

Honey Update:

April 2009

Drought seems to be the major factor in an ongoing struggle to increase
world raw honey supply. Severe droughts in South America and China
dramatically reduced their last honey crops, and we are starting off the
2009 honey crop in the U.S. with drought issues in California, reducing
their crop projections. The orange blossom honey crop is very poor.

A good honey crop in India helped to stabilize prices somewhat, but the
heavy demand for all raw honey on the world market has kept prices strong.
World demand for honey remains strong, especially for industrial type honey.
Even the world wide economic crisis has not yet weakened demand. Many honey
producers throughout the world are holding honey off the market for better
prices. U.S consumption is still strong as we continue to consume over
twice as much honey as we produce in this country

Europe continues to buy aggressively, and the U.S. dollar is again weakening
against other world currencies, making it more difficult for U.S. Packers to
compete for this honey.

Unfortunately, the only favorably priced honey in the market seems to be of
Chinese origin, either sold as Chinese honey or as a "packer's blend", or
circumvented through a 3rd country to avoid duties or hide adulteration.
With contamination and adulteration issues still prevalent with Chinese
honey, U.S. regulatory agencies are trying to crack down on mislabeled or
transshipped Chinese honey.

While there are still reports of Colony Collapse Disorder, it has not been a
major factor in raw honey pricing. Beekeepers still bear the brunt of the
expense to rebuild their hives, but these costs can only be passed on to
packers if world prices remain strong.

The projection for pricing through the rest of 2009 and into 2010 is that
prices will remain strong, but may be more stable than last year.

Prices going back up in Argentina...http://www.apitrack.com/noticia/aaacotizacionmiel_es_open.htm


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## irwin harlton

*Four loads sold from Manitoba*

1.80/lb............... Mid US honey hotline 783 658 4193

cannot be a whole lot left in Canada but I know of some


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## Birds&Bees

*correct phone #*

the hotline # is 763 658 4193


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## lupester

*Vey interesting*

I find you commerical honey producers conversation very interesting. Here is an article that sums up the world drought, food production. Since you are in the food production business what do you think of this article? I have only been keeping bees for a year.

Catastrophic Fall in 2009 Global Food Production 
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=DEC20090210&articleId=12252


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## irwin harlton

*Yes its going to cost more to eat, live*

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/schmidt/2009/0519.html

Honey is in short supply , talking to the buyer of four loads, which he paid 1.80/lb canadian for, drums returnted ,he said " BEEKEEPERS WERE VERY RELUCTANT TO SELL, THE MOOD WAS THE PRICE WILL GO HIGHER"............not a whole lot of good white honey left in Canada, but there is some

Noticed the price of crude oil slowly creeping up with the Canadian dollar in tow......... inflation ?


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## suttonbeeman

Sheri,
I am just wondering if the packer in Pa you were talking about has Gold inits name?


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## JohnK and Sheri

Yeah, Rick, that's the one.
Looks like the market is softening a bit. Packers we called offering $1.38 for white, $1.33/4 ELA.
Sheri


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## suttonbeeman

Sheri.

I had a great relationship with the gentlemen who use to run the company. I did me a huge favor about 12 years ago when I didnt have a crop, honey was in short supply and I had a contract I HAD to fulfill. He let me have a load at a penny above what he paid and even delivered it to me for .85/mile. I will never be able to thank him enough. His sister who now runs the company is a horse of a differant color. I know of one case where she purchased a load and would pick it up later. When price went down she tried to buy for less.....bet she would never offered to pay more if price went up!!! He brother was a man of his word and a class act....I dont think of her in those same terms. The last time I talked to her about two years ago she was complaining that honey was too high (at that time .95) I told her if she got out of her little air conditioned office and worked for a change like we do she would think $2 was a bargin. Needless to say I dont think she appreciated my comment!


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## The Honey Householder

*packers games*

Hay Rick,
The packer your talking about low balled me on a load last year when they really need it. They called back a day later trying to get the load and I had already sold it. :doh:There lost is my gain. I don't play games.


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## irwin harlton

*Packers we called offering $1.38 for white, $1.33/4 ELA.*

So deflation is occurring in the US honey market.................. me thinks the packers would like us producers to believe that while a world shortage is growing

We still have the cheap Chinese factor plying the market for those packers who prefer this type of honey......... this market has had and is in tremendous growth, one US- Chinese packer has expanded from one to three packing plants .Current offers of Chinese white honey $1500/ton
plus container and freight.......... and not all this Chinese honey is contaminated or adulterated, but you take your chances on buying it even if you were lucky once before ,odds are you will get not what you want

Then there's the Billion dollar lawsuit against the US gov't and the insurance companies that let in all the past cheap chinese honey without duties and I won't even bring up the transshipped Chinese honey from India, Russia, you name the country.
No , there is no deflation in the US honey market, only low offers based on packer perception and deceit and cheap competition with Chinese honey


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## Tom G. Laury

Irwin, it seems that at least right now, in the short run, most everything is deflating in price. The Chinese got in and made their money while the making was good. Now that they have asserted their product in the market it's going to be very difficult to eliminate them. Looking ahead I would say that they will be more competitive than we have seen yet.

I really appreciate all your informative posts and producers outlook! Thank You!


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## irwin harlton

*2009 Chinese honey crop prices moving up*

acacia honey: it is comeing at first, so the price is not stable.
now the price is very high.
shandong wei factory offer:fob china port usd2600/mt
daliang ma factory offer:fob china port usd3000/mt

above is taken from a email 
dickering with a Chinese broker,seller,.......... just to see what prices ,production is

Originally this person quoted me $1500/MT for white.......... may have been " a come on" PRICE


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## Tom G. Laury

Thanks again! So is that then $1.30 & $1.50 per pound?

FOB China, I have no idea what a container costs to ship but that looks a strong price.


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## Tom G. Laury

Or is Metric ton 2200. I'm dumb about this.


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## irwin harlton

*metric ton = 2200 lbs*

$2600/mt=$1.18/LB

3000/MT= 1.36/LB PLUS CONTAINER AND FREIGHT 

Freight 1.to winnipeg:2825usd
2.to souris manitoba:3550usd .......... about 12cents/lb freight

These Chinese prices are comparable to the latest prices I have seen on NHB site for dec/08, which is 1.56


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## Tom G. Laury

*Another Dumb One*

" PLUS CONTAINERS " Does the buyer pay a drum fee? If so roughly how much?


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## irwin harlton

*shipping containers*

come in various sizes , usually 20FT or 40FT, holding 20 or 40 mt, these are bought, rented or included in the freight ,drums are sometimes double stacked in a 20ft, easily transported by rail or truck


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## irwin harlton

*an interesting story unfolding*

it is on the NHB site http://www.honey.com/honeyindustry/statistics.asp

Click on Total Averages from Four Countries (2004-2008) and Average Import Price of Honey (2006-2008)

The stats are 4 months behind, this I can somewhat understand, but it is 1/4 of a year!!!!

The cheapest place in the world to buy honey now appears to be USA ( if some generous packer can fool some hardup producer)

In Total Average Bulk Prices of Honey Imported from Four Countries, note the cheap chinese prices to dec08 then the december price.

The world shortage me thinks is growing, could it be possible the NHB is not serving the producers but only the importers and the packers, I would bet alot that this is the case


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## suttonbeeman

One industry group(APH) gripped, groweled and played with lawyers until the honey board changed from a board with producer input to no producer input. I will say it wasnt perfect, made alot of changes, got better but the importers and packers got tired of it so now we have no input. At the last minute APH (ie Richard Adee) realized what was going to happen but too late. Mr ADEE pretty much called all the shots and In my opinion wasnt always honest with his members. Now with the importer/packer board and some of those on the board that was involved with the recent Seattle newspaper articles and chinese honey sounds like we have the fox guarding the henhouse!


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## Tom G. Laury

*Honey Board*

Seemed like all the producer input was money
All the benefit was packer.
My understanding is that AHP is trying to form an entity to promote DOMESTIC honey.


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## suttonbeeman

True Tom...but at least we had some input. Dont think the penny isnt taken into consideration now when a producer gets a offer! I was at the Denver meeting in Aug 1986 wen the honey board was formed. We all had the idea it was going to promote OUR honey....(US honey) The USDA rep at the meeting informed us it HAD to promote all honey and not US. Unfair to the other countries since all honey had to pay(bill was written that way and couldnt be changed) I thought Binford Weaver was going to blow a fuse over all this and it wasnt the way he envisioned it! We were all mad but thats politics...they always look out for everyone else. I think MR Adee being against the board is the math ( 50,000 hives 100 lbs/hive @.01/lb = 50,000 dollars/yr his cost of a board!) The thing that disturbes me is while I was on the ABF board was some things he said and told his members were outright not true! I believe he looks out for RIchard and NOT the industry as a whole....but I guess if I had 50K hives I might too althought I hope I wouldnt. But we desperately need a board to for many reasons from educating the public to research. Alot of good has came from the board. If we hadnt increased the demand for honey we would have still have had imports and less dollars for ours. I hope we do get a US board but I dont think it will happen...too much politics in DC and who is going to do it? .....honey has been sold as a commodity too long...HONEY is not HONEY! There is a big differance....see next post!


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## suttonbeeman

To increase price we must sell honey like fine wine......differant floral source. People are fast becoming aware of the differance between "store brand" honey and local honey! Now to accomplish this here ae a couple of problems and if anyone has any suggestions please post them! Sourwood honey is currantly being sold throughtout the southeast that is not sourwood....deliberately mislabeled. One packer in North east Tennessee is selling quarts case of 12 clover delivered to KY for $67.00 for clover and 69.00 for sourwood. It the same honey!!! We as a industry need to come up with some standards for floral source honey(us board or currant board(but remember fox is guarding the hen house now). Sourwood honey is easy to identify due the the shape of the pollen in it. If you do the math and ex white honey is 1.50 producers dock a quart has about 4.50 plus jar(.50). so cost is 5.00 plus delivery and bottling overhead(usually about .10/lb) So cost delivered to Ky is about 5.50/qt or 5.60 qt. Where is the profit? Or what is in the JAR???????????? Lets all get the honey standard in our state for starters! Rick


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## Ian

I hear what your saying, definitely would be nice to have a standard measure on the honey sold on the shelves. But the way I see it, most honey sold today on the self isnt labeled by floral, but rather colour. Honey being collected from every part of the planet ,a nd sold as it comes in. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the honey isnt adulterated. Trade is trade, and we all have to realize everyone benefits in equal trade.

Bottom line, the consumers decide how the honey is sold, and right now they are demanding quality, abundance and price. Thats what we are giving them, thats what they get. Until the mass consumer habits change, this is how honey will be sold.

I realize the logistics around providing shelf space, and supplying the consumer with discount foods, but I tell you, if the consumer lean towards different buying habits, the retail suppliers will accommodate them. You can see it with organics right now, you can see it with local produced food right now. You see it with healthy living trends. 
We will see it with the way our honey is produced, packed and sold also. But in time, and after we as an industry invest more time into educating the public. 

You can beat the mule with a stick, or use the stick to lead the mule with a carrot,


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## The Honey Householder

*public educating*



Ian said:


> But in time, and after we as an industry invest more time into educating the public.


I sell 75% of my honey to other small beekeeper that do the pubic educating. Most of their sale have increased by 200% in the past two years. I find this is a better way then paying out the penny and I'm selling my honey for more too.


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## John Smith

*Honey: Money Medicine and Food*

Asking the fox to come up with a solution will work well,............... for the fox!

When the consumer can no longer trust his government nor his supermarket to police his food chain, that consumer will become his own policeman.

The rapid increase in beekeepers selling direct to their public is the best solution. The fox misses out there altogether. The Poor Fox. If that beekeeper proves that he cannot be trusted, his market will fail. But generally, beekeepers don’t have the volume, the processing facilities nor the motivation to invest in a lot of cheating. His simplest methods of producing and distributing are quite acceptable to the public in most cases. He is also the best positioned of all vendors to promote the product, as he knows it like they never will.

Local producer-packers may never replace the supermarket, but we can certainly revive and retrieve our industry from oblivion by moving away (however temporarily) from the idea that we are only interested in bulk sales. 

Produce less and sell more direct. That action itself can change the world of honey! It can change your own world dramatically too.

Honey is the perfect product to have. It qualifies very high as a monetary commodity, it qualifies as a medicine and it is a time honoured food, yet it is simple and fundamental to produce and market. If we as beekeepers throw our weight behind that move, I can assure you the rest of the foxes will soon align themselves accordingly. They have one major disadvantage............. they don’t have any bees and honey! They can only survive a limited time selling substitutes and look-alikes.

Question: What are the three worst value commodities in the market place right now? 
Answer: Money, medicine and food. 

Honey is all of the above, and science will never replace it with something better.

Make no mistake about it, however. The market is waking up (slowly?) to substitutes and frauds. This is partly owing to the total predominance of same, but also to the aging of the baby boomers. The older one gets the more likely it is that he/she will wake up to reality!

There is far more money to be made retailing honey than there is in producing it, certainly in the short term.

Cheers,

JohnS


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## jjgbee

I was recently in Florida and bought some real Tupelo. WOW it was great. all the Tupelo that I have tasted, mainly from health food shops was NOT Tupelo. I was amazed that it was so thick and produced in a high humidity region. For the rest of my trip, I ate the Tupelo and let my Black Sage sit in the cupboard. On the subject of consumers, most of my customers are oriental. They demand GOOD honey. The biggest problem we have with American consumers is that they get one of those restraunt packsof honey, of which the best are poor and worst are not fit for bee feed, and they will never want honey again. For 30 years now, I have supplied most of the restraunts in town with #1 black sage honey in 6# pour jugs. I supply all the bears they need. This way, people can learn what real honey should taste like. I make money while beating the price of the restraunt packs. I also write off a few thousand per year and call it advertising.


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## irwin harlton

Canadian honey selling to Canadian packers within the last 6 weeks for 1,75 and 1.80/lb
This is in US Dollars 1.51 AND 1.56.... there are no USA packers paying this price , guess the world shortage of honey is being crushed by the deflation and recession in the USA and world supply and demand do not enter the picture . It appears the cheapest place to buy honey is from the USA producer


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## The Honey Householder

I will have to start extracting early this year because of the big honey shortage. I have already sold 25 barrels at $1.85 lb and the orders are still coming in. How long will this shortage last? :scratch:

Having problems finding good barrel this year. I think last years high scrap price did away with a lot of barrels.

2009 honey crop is looking good and hope the price stay up too.


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## irwin harlton

Odem international is currently offering 1.70 Canadian funds.Buyer is quoted as saying price will probabby rise to 1.80 can . come August. There is not much honey moving at 1,70 and there is not alot left to move

At current exchange rates and last honey prices I heard june 18 on the honey hot line, some packer is paying her a premium.............. prices were 1.45-1.50 on the honey hot line Packer probably figures it is best to not let US producers know what 's going on..... pay more for foreign honey and buy the home stuff cheaper


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## jean-marc

Yes , but everybody knows that Canada produces a premium product, hence the premium price to it's producers.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

Thanks to all those canola producers!!


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## jean-marc

Sure, they too deserve a pat on the back.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

Jean-Marc said

"Yes , but everybody knows that Canada produces a premium product, hence the premium price to i.t's producers"

I whole heartly agree with you, but comparing US and recent Canadian prices, I think there is more than a recession and a Canadian 90 cent dollar in play.No doubt the new crop offerings will be at the present low prices,even with the shortage of honey.Same old story, packers will buy all they can before prices are reflected by the shortage.......... maybe the shortage is not as big as one thinks


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## John Smith

Taken over any ten year period in history, there has always been a shortage. It was the shortage of honey that prompted mankind to grow grapes to make his alcohol with. It was the shortage of honey that prompted us to develop glucose made from starch. Now honey has 1 percent of the sweeteners market, and you reckon there is a glut?

Once a few more people have read the book, The Honey Revolution, you can dismiss the term 'glut' from your mind forever. If we can secure 2% of the sweeteners market, we will have doubled the demand.

All talk of plenty in the honey world is a buyers spin. Why is it that one can 'always' sell it? The only thing that keeps anyone from buying unrestricted amounts of it is the availability of finance. How long since you read about honey being dumped at sea?

Mr. S. Kamberg has spoken too. http://www.skamberg.com/

Cheers,
JohnS


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## irwin harlton

*Re: Bulk honey prices and market outlook-Ron Phipps report*

HONEY MARKET REPORT
(Colony Collapse Disorder, Circumvention, & Crops)
July 27, 2009
Ron Phipps


Overall Comments
As this report is being written, the North American honey market awaits clarification of production of the: 1) important white clover and sunflower crops in South and North Dakota and 2) Canada’s honey crop. Given the sparsity of white honey from the traditional major honey exporting countries, with China excluded due to prohibitive antidumping duties imposed by the U.S. Department of Commerce on Chinese honey, the success or failure of the honey crops in the northern honey producing areas of North America will have a major impact upon the price tendencies and availability of honey, especially white honey.

The American honey market is witnessing the converging influence of two major concerns: 1) growing long-term concerns regarding the viability of the global honey bee population, and 2) the emergence of a two-tiered honey market in America. Both of these concerns have generated an unusual degree of interest among beekeepers and packers, the media, scientists, the U.S. Congress and the governmental agencies responsible to enforce the rule of law in America’s international trade relations.

Colony Collapse Disorder (C.C.D.)
In recent months, there has been excellent media coverage of the continuing problems with the health of the world’s pollinators. One of the best descriptions of Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) was broadcast on National Public Television (PBS—Nature; pbs.org) on July 26, 2009. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/silence-of-the-bees/video-full-episode/251/

This program described the nature of the problems, current research regarding causes and cures and the potential impact upon agriculture. There are approximately 100 crops that require pollination through insects. These crops include the major fruits, nuts and vegetables required for a healthy, anti-oxidant rich and balanced human diet. As both the scale of agriculture and the suburbanization of society have increased, natural pollination has declined greatly. Now approximately 1/3 of American agricultural production depends upon the honey bee to pollinate crops.

There appears to be a confluence of variables which are exacerbating the bees’ vulnerability to disease, including stress from the highly migratory practices of modern beekeeping, the mono-diet of bees under large scale agriculture, pesticides and climatic stresses. Most research scientists are coming to view the phenomena of bees disappearing from their hives to be a cumulative consequence of this confluence of factors. Concern for the world’s honey bees has deepened as increased awareness of the vital importance of bees, not just to the honey industry, but to agriculture more generally, has grown.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has established a multi-disciplinary team to investigate the cause and cures of colony collapse disorder. This illustrates the importance of the issue beyond the beekeeping community, since ¾ of the plants on the earth require pollination.

The Two-Tiered Market
Concurrent with stresses on bee colonies, we witness the emergence and entrenchment in the U.S.A. of a two-tiered honey market. This two-tiered price structure has sprung up in inverse relationship to growing quality and duty restrictions upon imports of Chinese honey. The price gaps inherent in the two-tiered market have become untenable for many honey packers.

There has rarely, if ever, been such growing unity among all levels of the American honey industry and from all regions of the country in favor of ending the circumvention of Chinese honey through various forms of non-dutiable “blends” and through illegal transshipments of Chinese honey through third countries. American beekeepers, packers, some importers, various exporters and governments are coalescing in unprecedented unity to stop the circumvention of anti-dumping duties and the illicit trade in honey that have created the two-tiered market that threatens the American honey industry. The U.S. Federal Government agencies responsible to enacting and enforcing U.S. antidumping law have been increasingly active and arrests for criminal trade in illicit honey imports have occurred. 

Some governments have recently taken action. The State of Florida has accepted, as of July, 2009, a Standard of Identity for honey which may contribute to preventing adulteration of honey and the creation “blends” designed to circumvent antidumping duties. The Vietnamese Government instituted a Monitoring Program in May, 2009, one of whose aims is to preserve the integrity and reputation of Vietnam by prohibiting transshipment of Chinese honey. Even elements of the Chinese honey industry and government realize that this illicit circumvention is harmful to China’s reputation.

The American Honey Producers Association, The National Honey Packers and Dealers Association, The Committee for the Promotion of Honey and Health and many major packers have taken strong measures. Honey companies throughout the U.S.A. are contacting Congress and the media to urge more comprehensive and decisive action to prevent circumvention. Some lawyers have suggested Congressional Hearings to be held on these blatant and repeated acts to violate international trade law and circumvent the force of U.S. antidumping rulings. Also, some have suggested that the mass media and the appropriate trade journals need to be informed so that the collusion and criminality that underlie the gross price disparities that render fair competition impossible and threaten the survival of honest companies can be understood.

The aberrational patterns of honey imports, which appear month by month, are relatively transparent. Countries that produce minimal amounts of honey, according to official communications from their government and other sources, are exporting 10 times their production. Countries that shipped virtually no honey to the world a decade ago are currently shipping to the U.S. at a rate equivalent to 125 million pounds per year. Countries with tropical climates that produce 80%-90% dark honey, are shipping huge quantities of white honey. There are reports that Chinese honey has been illegally blended in third countries prior to export to the U.S.A.

The American honey industry is not the only industry threatened by Chinese honey. The Indian press reported in 2003 that Chinese honey was being smuggled through Nepal, that Nepal was a net importer of honey, not an exporter, and that no sanitary checks were being conducted on the honey imported into India. In 2005, Indian farmers feared “that cheaper Chinese honey imports have captured the wholesale market, leading to a glut” (Nov. 13, 2005, Thiruvananthapuram). Indeed, India, despite a rather intense trade relationship with China, has more antidumping suits against Chinese products than does the U.S.A.

Crops

United States
The size and quality of North American crops remains hard to assess, as this report is being written in late July. Weather problems and volatility nationally have been inconsistent and pronounced. California and Texas have suffered extreme and persistent drought, reducing normally substantial crops of sage, orange and buckwheat honey in California and tallow honey in Texas. Florida and the southwest, like the northeast, have suffered excessive rain, which harms the orange, tupelo and gallberry honey crops.

The Dakotas had ample moisture and healthy bees going into the early summer. But cool weather that saw temperatures fall to 49° in June delayed extraction and diminished prospects for a bumper clover crop. Beekeepers report many problems with bees as colonies are in some cases failing to build and in other cases collapsing. Everything is late and extraction in the Midwest, that would have normally begun in the first half of July, has not begun as August approaches. It will take ideal weather, an accelerated production period and re-invigorated bees to produce the bumper white clover crop that was anticipated when the Dakotas entered the honey production season with ample moisture.

Canada
Canada reports the same delay in the crop and that temperatures are very cold all across Canada as July ends. The prime honey production period in Canadian prairie provinces has been hurt by a late Spring and very cold mid-summer. Some agricultural experts predict a crop of only 30-40 million pounds unless weather improves. Ontario has been too wet and cold. The Jet Stream has played havoc producing autumn weather in summer.

Argentina
Argentina is between crops and, contrary to some rumors, the earlier assessment that Argentina’s honey crop was small and dark is correct. If there is some honey in beekeepers hands, that honey is not being released since Argentine beekeepers anticipate a firming market as consumption in the Northern Hemisphere increases in September through December.

Argentine exporters, like Brazilian exporters, are concerned that the huge bailout of the American financial system and the gigantic cumulative national debt burdening the U.S. economy will weaken the U.S. Dollar and cause commodity prices in general, and honey prices in particular, to rise.

Brazil
The severe floods of northeast Brazil have subsided and rainfall is normal. Honey is flowing again, and production presently is of dark and aromatic honey. Prices have shifted modestly as production has shifted from white grades to light amber and amber grades.

Vietnam
The total Vietnamese honey crop was about 20,000MT about 65% of which has been exported. Some higher quality and higher priced mono-flora honey may still come into the market in September if rains subside.

Vietnam has worked hard to improve quality and increase the level of beekeepers’ professional expertise. In May, several Vietnamese scientists from agricultural universities visited the bee lab at the University of California at Davis. The Vietnamese Government issued a formal circular to institute a Monitoring Program whose aims are to: 1) improve and standardize quality and 2) prevent circumvention of Chinese honey through Vietnam. Barbara Sheehan and James Phipps participated in meetings with the Vietnamese Beekeeping Association, the Vietnamese Ministry of Agriculture and the U.S. Embassy in Hanoi to encourage the establishment of this Monitoring Program. Officials of both governments and the honey industries of both countries welcome this important step to ensure fair and legal trade.

Conclusion
Circumvention in the American honey market has become the most decisive factor in determining prices of honey, who dominates and who survives or fails among producers, packers, importers and exporters. Correspondingly and consequently, the opposition to the collusion underlying circumvention has become unprecedentedly broad and deep. This problem has to be solved if the positive potentials for the honey industry are to be realized.
pps report


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## irwin harlton

The chances now of a normal or big honey crop in canada and the US are next to nil....... just my opinion.............. the next question how will and how much will this influence the price
With the market firmly controlled by 5-6 major buyers who together hate competition on prices and want market share filled by low priced circumvented chinese honey, who's going to be the first packer to offer a good REALISTIC price?


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## The Honey Householder

First 10 ton pulled, packed, and sold. Price is up from last year by $.15. The crop is late or going to be short by a 1/3. I can't keep honey around. Maybe I'm selling it to cheap. What is raw honey in the bucket selling for.


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## John Smith

Who will pay bigger prices? The public will! Especially in Florida!

I don't know how the middle men are going to fare. They know that putting up prices will not generate more honey in the short term, so yes, they are running a closed shop, albeit in an unofficial way. It does appear that they are very unwilling to break ranks with the brotherhood, especially as there are so few of them.

I am promoting the small time packers: The beekeepers who sell at markets: The jam makers who work the markets but want to add honey to their line. These are the people who can and will pay better prices.

Obviously the survivors in the big packer class will eventually come to the party. They always have. Honey would still be 5 cents per pound if they hadn't have done so in the past. But it sure looks like it will only be after much kicking and screaming and delaying the matter.

Their biggest trouble is the rapid and savage rate of increase. If you double the price of the honey, you halve the amount any one enterprise can buy in. Bankers are not very prone to encourage honey stockpiling. This is their downfall. They figure it should be produced on demand like so many other things are. 

The last big rise (2003?) was because they all had supermarket contracts that they were obliged to fill ------------- at any cost. This hurt many of them, quite seriously. They may not have fully recovered yet. For sure, they would have been much more wary when entering into such contracts again.

The banking crisis could not have been resolved until after the shock of loosing a few banks. Maybe only the loss of a major honey packer will break the deadlock. How much credit are you allowing any one of them to have at your expense? Some beekeepers may go down with them, if it happens. It is a cruel world.

Too many eggs in one basket was always considered a risk. The broader your market the safer you are. Sorry 'bout that. It was so nice to just put your honey on the truck and wave good bye.

I anticipate honey following gold, with a daily fix on prices, and no delivery on credit. Money for honey or no sale. It is the only way to protect each party from the regrets and losses of rapidly gyrating prices.

The bigger the concern the more tightly they manage their cash flow. My town council even lost a slug of money in the stock market......... yes, they cannot help themselves but try to glean every cent they can out of their cash flow. I don't know how the big honey consortiums are managed, but the bigger the enterprise, the bigger the problems.

Anyway, the real question is: What Honey?

Cheers,

JohnS


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## irwin harlton

from http://www.apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm

2009-07-30

MEXICO- HONEY PRICE INCREASE 
Due to the climate factor in honey production has dropped considerably, not only in Mexico but worldwide, evidenced by the fact that honey prices have risen, from 22 pesos (US$ 1.66) last year at 38 pesos (US$ 2.86) today, so it is necessary to produce more honey as Europe and Argentina are in great demand. Marco Antonio Muñoz, president of the National Association of queen breeders, reported that the honey is exported to Europe, comes through Hamburg and Mexican honey is a basis for the formulas of commercial honey is sold in Europe, as the honey that is sold there is a blend of different honeys from various parts of the world.


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## Ian

>>It was so nice to just put your honey on the truck and wave good bye.


Thats the basis of most all agriculture. Its a system that works very well and on a world wide basis. It employs hundreds of millions of people, and allows food to flow all over the world in a consistent basis.

For a fellow like me to start marketing most all my production would maximize my labour and capital resources, which greatly increases my risk.

Value added is fine and dandy, small time processors is also great, but you cant simply ignore the consumer masses and our current system of production, processing, and distributions networks,


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## John Smith

Very true, Ian, but how do you go when they don't want to reward you for your product?

Can large operators alone hold the industry together? Can you guys pollinate all the small time vegetable growers?

Any culture that does not cater for new blood, younger entrants and small operators has lost its creative potential. Like a dying tree, it will fail eventually. 

If maxi sized operators were keeping up with the demand, they wouldn't be having to outlaw diluted product in Florida.

Big operations go out of business as surely as little ones thanks to their large turnover. Turnover is a goddess of profitability when she is showing a profit. But when profit creeps over the line and becomes a loss, turnover is then a deadly enemy. Big banks and big insurance companies, big supermarkets and big honey operators can crash spectacularly. Where will the industry be when our current (aging) crop of professional market contributors retire?

In every vocation their is always a small percentage of folk who can rise high and be shining lights. All power be to them. We need them desperately. If it were not for a few top catwalk models hitting the headlines now and then, the rag trade would not be able to coerce enough young talent to keep the industry going. But there still has to be some payola in it for the less talented, otherwise that industry will die.

Unfortunately, the death of the honey industry seems to have been promoted by big business, big pharmacy, big banking and big government for thousands of years. And yes, a gullible public are always keen to embrace cheap substitutes for everything. And all that collectivism has built great towers and conquered the moon............... but the burgeoning (both by count and by body mass) of our population now is forcing us to wonder how much longer we can continue to feed ourselves, especially without the help of the honeybees.

With two thirds of most modern societies now overweight, and at least one third actually obese, the poor spindly legs of the remaining workers that are supporting us must be looking wobbly.

The amount of honey (and all foodstuffs) that never makes it to the statistician's note book in massive. In those times when the little people run out of honey, the number of customers flooding into the remaining vendors is enormous. It is such a powerful wave it is embarrassing even for the system operators. It is the large honey producers that create the statistics and the little producers that create the waves!

All Hail to the upcoming wave of backyarders now arising. The big boys may be the bones of the industry, but the little people are the muscles!

Lets move it and shake it!

Cheers,

JoihnS


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## Ian

Well, I guess so John, if thats the way you feel about our current model of agriculture, thats your opinion,

I just dont see things so dire

I see a model working very well

And who best tell you this, the consumers. They are supporting this model overwhelmingly. 

A few big guys go broke, as you mention, 
will be replaced with a few more big guys
backyarders will not and can not fill that tremendous void,

I understand what your saying, I think,

>>Any culture that does not cater for new blood, younger entrants and small operators has lost its creative potential. Like a dying tree, it will fail eventually. 

your expecting a coming crash in our current agricultural model,

I m not going to bank on it

>>Ian, but how do you go when they don't want to reward you for your product?


Thats been a part of farming for at least 100 years,
If there is one thing that hasnt changed in farming over these last 100 years, its producers not getting what they need for thier product


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## Trevor Mansell

John , 
The big players in the Bee Buisnesses in the US make there money on pollination not honey production. Wich is one reason there is a shortage of honey . As far as blended honey in Fl ,its a packer that is bringing it in to make a quick buck . Backyarders are great for public relations , but we will see how many of them stick with it once they find out what it costs in time and money to keep a beehive alive.


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## jean-marc

So what's the current price of honey paid to producer?

Jean-Marc


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## Beeslave

Honey hotline has on 6-19: Nebraska $1.38 lbs paid to producer and in Manitoba $1.75 canadian paid to producer(118 drums).


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## Beeslave

I've been getting $1.65- $1.75 on small lots( less than 5 drums each sale)


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## The Honey Householder

Raw barrel honey $1.65 under 10 ton
Raw bucket honey $1.75 under 10 ton
Orders are back up. I have 32,000 pounds of bulk honey back up. 
I'm a second generation comm. beekeeper and have never had honey orders back up. I've got my work cut out for me this week. If you are one that is needing honey you better buy it before Oct. I try and keep a semi load or two for the next year. This may be the first year I don't. I see the price hiting $2.00 by the holdays, if there is any around.


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## Ian

>>$1.75 canadian 

That sounds about right,


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## Beeslave

Pure Sweet in WI offering $1.40 for ELA and $1.44 for White.


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## Trevor Mansell

Melo is offering $1.35 , wich seems alittle low to me .


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## irwin harlton

Packers will get very little honey at the above prices.2009 honey crop estimates are along ways from being made public but I bet the crop is below average in both Canada and the USA. A Canadian honey broker estimated the Canadian crop at 30 -40 million lbs last month ,down from a normal 60 -70 million lb crop
It will take a packer like Sue to start buying on the open market and the price will rise dramatically. The 5 or 6 major US packers are tied pretty close together and able to keep prices where they want them,where as in Canada, honey has been selling this spring at 1.75-1.80, well above the current offerings of US packers even when you take in account of the Canadian peso
There is a WORLD shortage of honey, there is a greater shortage of white honey and it will be reflected in the price in the coming months

One only has to go to the national honey board site to to see that this rise in the honey price has begun http://www.honey.com/honeyindustry/stats/AvgImpCIF02-06.htm, the packers cannot suppress this info but they are doing one fine job of delaying it..... average price of imported honey is 4 months behind


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## dgl1948

One of the largest producers in Sask. is reporting his crop is down about 60 per cent He says he has never had a year this bad. He is in the Sask honey belt. We are further South and our first pull was a way down. The second has been a little better but things are slowing down fast. We are not in a rush to sell as we think when the totals come in production is going to be a way down.


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## Lil Grain of Rice

Hi there, new beek here, nowhere near producing any honey at all  just wondering when you are talking prices like $1.40-1.75 is that the price per pound?


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## JohnK and Sheri

Yes that is the price per pound. We are talking generally semi loads of 55 gal drums, about 65 of them, picked up at the producers dock.
Sheri
PS welcome to the forum.


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## Lil Grain of Rice

Thank you


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## Ian

Argentina is experiencing very dry conditions, delaying many farmers from planting til moisture rolles through


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## The Honey Householder

I've produced and sold 47,000 pounds in the past 3 week. Sale price $1.65-1.75 for bulk barrel and bucket honey. I'm getting offers on my comb honey for $3.20 lb for comb honey in the super. 
I've been in the business a long time and have never moved honey to the small packers before like this. Most of my smaller packer are reporting there sales up a 1/3 in the pass two years. It's always nice to see the little guys making it.
I called two big packers two weeks ago to check on prices and the quotes was 1.39, and the other 1.45 for white honey. Because of the big packers sandbagging, they already losted out on one of my semi loads. The way it looks my crop is going to be 10-12 ton short this year. 
At these prices the shortage is OK. There always next year.

Ron Householder


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## doc25

Anyone know the prices that the Manitoba honey coop is giving? Tier A and B.


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## Ian

They are pretty tight lipped on new crop honey,


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## irwin harlton

The gov't advance crop payment program is ,I believe set at 1.00/lb for the 2009 crop year.This is open to all producers and Beemaid partakes in this offering also, ...so the initial payment will be at least1.00/lb and most likely more...........but then again my forecasts have been known to be wrong
Beemaid 1 kilo creamed honey on the store shelf is over $12


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## Birds&Bees

Costco has Beemaid honey in 2Kg containers for $12.69


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## Ian

Initial payment of 70 cents, as is the advance as far as I understood,
I would like to expect to see 1.5 - 1.75 $ final payment, but then that all depends on how long the stronge market holds. Who knows, perhaps 2$ isnt too far off our expectations, 
looking at Argentina, again entering a very dry season. Certianly not expecting to see the production comming out of there like 4 years ago


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## irwin harlton

I stand corrected, thankyou Ian, crop advance payment for 2009 honey is.70/lb
Don't know what made me think it was 1.00........... wishfull thinking , maybe, but then again what can you buy for a dollar or for that matter what can you get for 70 cents.
That is approximately half of what the current market prices are at

Looking at BeeMaids $12.69 FOR 1 kilogram ( 2.2 lBS) that works out to $5.768 /LB ...pricey eh! Top quality Canadian honey should command a top price on the store shelf or in the drum Beemaid is a little cheaper over at Wallmart where they are going toe to toe with Billy Bee and the Wallmart brand, which is packed in Toronto on Argentine street


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## Bud Dingler

Souix members have been told to expect $1.30 for 09 after receiving closer to $1.40 for 08. Go figure.....

It does appear that some areas in Mn and Wiso will pull this stinker of a season out of the crapper in the 9th inning


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## suttonbeeman

I've never to the life of figured out why anyone would bee a member of sue? You get paid about 10 or 20 percent on delivery then more later and a little more a few months later then finally the balance about a year later(I use to know the setup but its been a while and I dont remember and it may have changed) THIS IS AFTER THEY RETAIN 10% OF YOUR GROSS for 8 or 10 years for their operating capitol!! Figure if you produce 100,000 lbs of honey and the price is 1.30....they will have 130,000 dollars of YOUR money from now own. How much could you make with that capitol or save in interest payments and as is in the above post you usually get paid less. ALso you are losing the interest on all the payments you dont get immediately! Sure you just call them and they bring you drums and pick up your honey....but as hard as bee work is it is easy to make some phone calls....in fact I would broker honey for 1/2 of what you loose being a member of sue....not to mention they have been caught importing chinese honey and some was found with chlomamphenicol (sP) google seattle times article on honey laundering for details! I dont think anyone should get les than 1.40 if you make some calls. THree different beeks all got 1.65 last week from what I was told.


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## Bud Dingler

I agree about Sue - what a joke. Most of the members are selling honey out their back door, even the board members to supplement their income. 

They even deduct for honey that has real flavor like basswood. Seems they want the HFCS tasting honey!


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## John Smith

We have had something like 80 years of similar experiences here in Australia. First a Co-Op and (after the beekeepers FINALLY recognised what was going on), a Producer Owned Corporation was formed. As with all new endeavours, it performed beautifully for the producers until the founders retired, then it followed the universal pattern. It is still ticking over, but has lost a massive volume of its dedicated supply base.

Yes, we all love that tasteless honey. Why? Because we can use it to soften up all that rough stuff we buy in cheap. Its all about the dollars, not the taste. Supermarkets love one single line of honey. It must all be the same color, the same general flavour and the same watery consistency. They have no staff present to explain to the customer why every sample of honey coming from the hive has different characteristics.

It's all about the system and the people who run it. It is not about the producer nor the customer. They are entirely taken for granted.

The irony of it is, that individuals within these organisations do work hard and put a lot of effort in trying in to make it work, but the net result is still the same. They just go on down the gurgle like all the previous ones did.

I am hoping a new one will emerge here. Like governments, they are only valid in their infancy and youth. As mature entities, they become a liability as no one is ever responsible for anything and losses are covered up to save face, passing the pain back to the producer and the synthetic honey on to the customer.

It appears that beekeepers are like bees and are socializing creatures by nature. It seems no other philosophy will work for us, so I just wait and hope for the new organisation. Time for a 'swarm' to emerge?

Cheers,
JohnS


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## irwin harlton

Honey hot line ,763 658 4193 august 20 th,

No large crop in the USA mid west,going to be a below average crop with some bright spots
No packer offerings quoted, one small lot less than 10 drums sold for 1.75

Marketing your own honey verses say shipping to Sue....... you only have to get burned once, and you can be a dead duck, a load or two you don't get paid for or the price reduced after the buyer receives it ,
you know all the funny little things that can happen when you sell a load of honey.... then that Sue starts to look pretty good... heard their membership has increased the last few years, taking back past producers who were in the bad books with them
Sue saying their price will be 10cents lower than last year..... could the recession be reducing sales ... suppose to be a world shortage, suppose to be a shortage of white honey, Argentina didn't produce no big crop , nor much white honey ...... me thinks it is only a matter of time and the price will be going up... no big crop in Canada either


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## jean-marc

I agree with you Irwin on the point of being paid. At the end of the day as a producer you need to get paid. I don't belong to a Co-op , don't really need to. I sell most of my honey locally to other smaller beekeepers. I like selling locally too, that way I have a better feel for what is happening in the local market. If there is payment problem it's a maximum 1 hour truck drive. We get top dollar for local honey. Any prairie honey we produce is sold locally and we may not get top dollar but we do get paid.

Jean-Marc


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## suttonbeeman

BUD Im getting worried....we agree on something!!! lol we need to go drink a cold beer!
Like the above post Sue was a great idea when it started but like government is it soon didnt benefit the people(members). Back in 2001 sue was selling bears to Kroger for 83 cents a bear(9.80 cs of 12)I caused a big flap when I was at the Wisconsin meeting and Mr Dienielt(sp) asked me why I thought the price of honey was dropping so much. I gave the sue payment ect and told the price they were selling bears for..sue's faces got red, I mean really red and they said I didnt have my figures right. I was representing the honey board at the meeting and I took off my honey board hat, my abf director hat and spoke as my personal opinion. I had calls from the honey board chairmen along with several others as sue was hot.. Just a couple of years ago at the Louisville meeting they admitted to me int he hallway I was right but didnt want anyone to know they were undercutting the market! They were trying to increase their market share. What a mess! Besides the above post of selling honey as honey and not as varietal source you know why they are paying 1.30....what a joke!


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## Beeslave

All of us who sell to packers could put a stop to the nonpayment/late payment issue by demanding money in hand before/at delivery. After they recieve the samples from us to do their testing they know what they are getting. Who were the unwise beeks that ever allowed the 30-60-90 day later pymt to start anyways. When I first started selling to packers I was just appauled to be told that pymt was in 60 days. I told them I was not a bank and they said that is how it is, so needing to sell my product I did and 65 days later I had to make a reminder call. We are in sense a "union without contract". We as beeks are the ones that produce the "bread and butter" for the packers. It's time they treat us that way. Call every packer you know and ask them to send you $50,000 and you will send them the honey in 60 days. They will laugh at you. Shouldn't we give them the same respect they give us? Oh, buy the way, still getting $1.65 in drums and pails(they provide pails 4 gal. or larger) raw straight from holding tank unfiltered cash in hand. Anyone that questioned the price was told that is what it is and they paid with no more arguement. Now what to do with the other 90% of crop left. Borrow it interest free?


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## Beeslave

Why is the highest paid for "white" honey in U.S.A. for July from Argentina?

http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf


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## suttonbeeman

I dont sell on credit. When I sell to a packer(orange blossom or bakery honey, I bottle some orange and all my other honey)I get paid at delivery or 1/2 at delivery and 1/2 in 14-30 days or they dont get it!


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## John Smith

Go down to your nearest coin shop and try to buy a gold coin on 30 day account! No, that is not the way it works with gold. You put up your money and you get the gold.

Gold isn't even medicine, much less food. Honey is all three. It is edible gold.

America must be about the best place in the world right now to buy honey, mostly because no one ever puts up his offering price until after all the eager beavers have sold theirs.

Now you know why the price spiked upwards so high a few years ago. Got us all excited, so we bought new trucks and everything else thinking we were rich. Now we have to sell honey as soon as we get it to make our monthly payments.

Imported honey is much easier to pay more for than local honey. It is a very 'quiet' industry, that importing business. What they pay foreigners is usually kept out of the local bee news. Packers and customers alike will pay what ever they have to, if only beekeepers knew how to value their own product. Then, of course, we have the goody goodies who think it is a crime to ask for profitable prices. Those very pious types usually buy shares in banks. ............. honorable and respected businesses, aye?

Sioux is probably so strapped for liquidity they can hardly pay for what little honey they are getting and no sympathy is likely to come their way from their bankers! So try doing some macro sums on how much money would be lost if one local shop defaults on a few cases of honey and compare that to how much would be lost if a major packer went belly up. People bought shares in Enron because it was so big it couldn't fail. Too many eggs in one basket is not recommended.

Inflate or perish!

Cheers,

JohnS


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## irwin harlton

http://www.honey.com/honeyindustry/stats/avgprice4countries.htm

average price for May 1.41

average price for june 1.27

price paid for Chinese IN JUNE .98

It was my understanding that the duties, import tax, surcharges on Chinese honey would make it uncompetitive, or well above the current market prices........ so did China drop their prices some more or is this the mislabeled honey called syrup?


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## irwin harlton

Prices rise in Argentina?

No el nina rains yet



Daily prices payd to the producer, per kilogram per drum, export quality 


http://www.apitrack.com/noticias/aaacotizacionmiel_es_open.htm


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## Ian

Its hard to compaire producer cooperative returns to open market return.
One hand we are expecting to deliver our crop in return of the yearly average price paid for the crop, and the other hand we deliver on spot pricing and reactionary marketing.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages, both will bring in more than the other some years.

When it comes down to me and my marketing choice, 
Its a matter of risk management


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## irwin harlton

" Its hard to compaire producer cooperative returns to open market return."

Would be like comparing apples and oranges, both fruit , honey is honey weather its in a co-op drum or not.... its all in the marketing, it all ends up on the store shelf or in some food as a ingredient.The cost of a sure market and a sure payment are high.
I was a co-op member in the early 70's, as was my father before me.No doubt things have changed , nice to see Bee maid selling a liquid ELA or golden honey on the shelf, they seem to have problems back then marketing that colour when I was a member and making a decent return on it, like their return on colured honey was less than 1/2 the return on white.Meanwhile BILLY BUZZ was paying one price for all colours and it was better than the co-ops total final payment on white honey


It was once pointed out to me and my other free market friends that without Beemaid free marketing of honey would be alot tougher..... meaning more competition in this market and more pawns for the packers to work over. Bee maid takes a big wad of honey out of the Canadian market, they have also been know to dump honey into the bulk market...... for what ever reason, falling prices , cash flow problems, or just being nice to their US friends

Don't really like to bash the co ops too hard , they are hard at work serving their members and also me.......... The less honey on the open market the better I like it

There is more than supply and demand at play in this honey market. Historically the longer a commodity is depressed in price the higher it will rise when the manipulation ends. This is due to the fact that increased production requires a rising price to provide incentive for the producer.


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## Ian

>>Bee maid takes a big wad of honey out of the Canadian market, they have also been know to dump honey into the bulk market...... for what ever reason, falling prices , cash flow problems, or just being nice to their US friends

I dont know about that, 
In BeeMaids case its a marketing decision made by one organization, 
otherwise it would be a marketing decision made by many producers 
both selling it at the same price. Call it dumping or marketing? 
China dumps, 

>>Historically the longer a commodity is depressed in price the higher it will rise when the manipulation ends

yup, that still is a trader theory
but look at the commodity markets right now


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## John Smith

It appears to me that some of us believe what is detailed in official reports while others of us look at the obvious activity and deduce for ourselves just what is really going on.

There is some truth in everything (otherwise it could hardly exist) but seeing the official 'news release' or 'annual report' as truth usually takes someone pure in heart and worthy of their position.

Needless to say, myriad conclusions are reached by those who nut it out for themselves, leading to considerable confusion. Those who accept it at face value all tend to agree. Hence we have collectivist and individualist, the former do best in good times, the latter do best in bad. 

Cheers,

JohnS


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## The Honey Householder

In 30+ years of honey production this has been the crazies in honey sales. In past years I held back a few semi loads and the big packers end up with it. This year with the big shortage in the area, the beekeepers help me out by buying those loads up. So to the big packers that keep quoting low prices. :doh:Maybe next year, but after selling to the beekeepers I would have to say go luck. It's always nice to see the little guy make it in this doggy-doggy world of business. 
I want to thank all those that made my year and hope to see you back next year.
Nothing sold for under $1.65 a pound this year. My crop came up 18% short of last years crop.
Still an awesome year!!!opcorn:
Thanks,
o/o Ron Householder


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## Ian

The word is Argentina is planting a record soybean crop, pushing aside wheat and canola acreages,
Also reports of very cool winter, with little precipitation until just recently.
Farmers are delayed on planting due to the dryness, but more so by the terrible economic conditons, avaliable credit.

Not sure how this effects the honey prices right now, but certainly looks like there will be a continued trend towards darker smaller Argentina honey crop,

Looks like this power house of a food producer is going to be held on the sidelines for another season,


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## Roland

Tasted some honey that was offered for 1.45 dockside. Yuch!!!! tasted like the stuff in the portion packs at fast food places. Tasted like dark honey , but was light colored. How could that be?????? CLAIMED to be from Thailand. Why would ANYONE put their name on a label with this product inside? Is the public that miss informed about what REAL honey tastes like?


Roland


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## Beeslave

Roland said:


> Is the public that miss informed about what REAL honey tastes like?


Yes they are! All the health hype on how healthy honey is so people that know nothing about real honey go to the local supermarket chain and buy the cheapest honey because they think honey is honey. They go home, wake the next morning to try their healthy honey, open the bottle of their over processed "honey", put it on their toast and think gross. Never to buy it again. The more we as beekeepers inform our local public on the honey issue the better off we are. Free samples, your great fresh honey and bottles of honey from where ever side by side, the public will decide and be enlightened. 

Imported honey dockside for $1.45 and the packers buying(offering) from us for less. Don't allow them to do it!


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## John Smith

Don't let them do it! Well Said Roland.

BEEKEEPERS determine the price of honey.

I know, I know. You are all screaming at me now. We are helpless slaves, you are thinking. THEY set the price and we have no option but to accept it.

WRONG. You had it first, you are in control of it.......... until............?

They (whoever that might be) will be quite happy to pay any price right down to nothing if they can find a beekeeper willing to accept it. Beekeepers determing the price by accepting the price offered and completing the sale. This phenomenon is not necessarily confined to large packers or international exporters either. Its the same with your neighbor next door and your work pals, your brother-in-law and your lawyer............ it makes no difference.

They would ALL rather get it for nothing if we are silly enough to part with it at that price.

So if you are happy with sixpence a pound, or a dollar. That will be the price.

Cheers and happy haggling!

JohnS


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## irwin harlton

So what should the price of bulk honey be?

Currently a eastern Canadian packer is offering 1.55 Can, freight paid , drums lost.Do not think he will get a whole lot at this price
Don't know what Odem is offering, anyone know?

Cost of production is considerably higher in Canada than in the the US, but can be offset sometimes by the higher yield.

USA offers seem to be stuck around the 1.40 - 1,45 and the Canadian dollar seems to gaining ground daily.
If the so called shortage materializes what should a producer have in mind for a price?

This spring loads in Canada sold for 1.75 and 1.80... less than a dozen loads sold .

AHPA have any target price in mind?Last year AHPA was saying 1.55, things have changed considerably from last fall.

Heard the hottest market right now is Asia-Japan paying well above current US prices


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## Ian

More news from Argentina,
Talking of an El Nino ocean current providing more moisture in the future, This has commodity trading looking at bigger soybean crop ontop of the record breaking plantings , 
Perhaps the increased amount of precip will promote a better honey crop down south.

this news comes in direct contrast to what has been commented on previously,

Commodity futures are looking at this seriously, should the honey market?


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## Wee3Bees Apiary

If the commodity markets did look at honey more seriously, what price would we think is appropriate for white or light amber? I will take a stab at the prices and say, $1.90 and $1.75 per pound, respectively?

The US Dollar has decreased from about $90.00 (US Dollar index) in March, 2009 to a price of $76.25 today. This represents a price decrease (inflation, if you will) of 18% which should translate into a price increase for honey of the same amount. This doesn't even incorporate the apparent shortage of honey worldwide...

I bet we could see $2.00 per pound of white honey in the US in the next 12 months. Of course, it could be back at $1.00 per pound also if the packers have their way...

I don't really have a clue about these things as I am a sideliner... but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night!:lpf:


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## irwin harlton

Re. More news from Argentina,

Even if Argentina returns a big crop in 2010,I think it will be alot like the last crop, dark and not a alot of white, the country has changed from cattle to soybean .

Re Wee3Bees

Your price projections are right on......... if anything you could be on the low side, there is a shortage and the packers will have to pay to play.The Packer producer relationship....... now thats a whole new can of worms


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## John Smith

I believe each honey producer regardless of quantities must assess the price he/she feels content with (as a minimum) but better yet, what price would motivate him/her to invest more into added productivity, as that is the only price that will ultimately resolve the shortages problem (barring acts of God, sudden population or total economic collapse, meteor hit, etc.).

I believe honey is overdue for the best wave of my lifetime. Big waves are the result of faddism, and yes, Manuka is on a roll now and we tend to see that as an isolated event, which it isn't. In the minds of the rank and file, it is lifting ALL honey in a very positive way. 

My lifelong involvement with the Health Food Industry gives me insights into faddism that not everyone recognises. But if you were involved with oat milling, you may remember the tremendous spike in oat bran prices when it was discovered to be helpful in managing cholesterol. Something like that may be happening soon to cinnamon powder (and bark). It may not have happened to coffee beans since the 19th century, but it happens to some foodstuff somewhere nearly every year. 

It tends to happen to foodstuffs that are valueless (relatively speaking, like oat bran and Manuka Honey were), and it is a small percentage of the consuming public who create the interest, spread it around and later the general public and the food processing and manufacturing industries get into it, and the big wave emerges............ and crashes, of course, as waves of this nature are want to do.

Honey is certainly not to be seen as valueless, but has of recent decades been one of the least profitable products going, which tends to weaken the producing baseline. The percentage of people following the 'health food trend' continues to increase every year and the disposable incomes of large populations the world over has risen in relation to the price of honey (and many of those cultures value honey very highly). 

The internet is giving millions of people access to research results that were previously ignored and/or suppressed by big organisations, and a ground swell of interest in honey as a super food is patently evident to me, although some tell me they see no such change. 

I however, am busy trying to help create that change, so I am very sensitive to the level of interest that is out there. Large organisations the world over are having trouble these days keeping the lids on things, and are increasingly losing their ability to hold things like honey (and natural health philosophies) in safe confinement.

The Manuka Honey broke a pilot hole in the wall of prejudice that had kept honey confined (for say, 80 years?) and now we find myriad floral sources around the globe rising (with official sanction) to help satisfy this enormous demand for medicinal honey. The remaining wall is purely imaginary, or 'in the mind' and is crumbling rapidly (it is not a Real Barrier, as they have long ago disappeared, as in distance from source to market, infrastructure etc.) The historic view of honey is on our side. Every beekeeper should be aware that all honey delivers some benefit in the health sense, and he/she should be prepared to stand up and proclaim this fact also.

Toss in the interest created around pollination, the inevitable price rises in other sweeteners thanks to cereal and cane crop shortages, high demand for starches for ethanol production, an ever expanding population, the iniquitousness of inflation etc. and I can only conclude that the sky is the limit for the dollar value of honey. Its relative value to other super foods (and food generally) is the one most beneficial to producers, and if ever there was a time for it to happen, this must be it.

Nominating a maximum price would be foolishness (in my humble opinion). There are too many national currencies, and they bob up and down like corks in the surf too, but earlier on (around 2002), the price spiked out to more than double, and while some folk positively and emphatically state that such an event will never occur again, I fail to see any trend arising to support that notion. My call is “That little spike was simply a tracer bullet, fired in the preliminary stage.” The price of honey will soon break ALL records in dollar terms, and possibly in real terms too relative to other commodities. That previous spike was in the BUYER's offering price, not the PRODUCER's nominated price!

Sure, today's price is very welcome, and honey as money is perfect, so when one needs to convert from one currency (honey) to another (dollars) it is good value, but to me, it is nothing by comparison with what I foresee as looming in the not very distant future.

The world's largest buyers are sitting on their hands (and their pocketbook) clinging to the hope that some crop will turn up somewhere to save them. Leaders of large organisations are famous for leaving things rock along until it is too late! If that fails, which is looking increasingly likely, the Northern Hemisphere winter is looming, and with public demand increasing, what are they going to do? One of them somewhere will panic and start buying AT ANY PRICE, and having broken ranks with the "Brotherhood" will be the catalyst for a major chase for the available stocks. So go on, be a good beekeeper and ‘donate’ your honey to the cause, for the good of mankind. Or be like me, and sit back a little bit and wait for them to get really anxious (for the cause of my own survival and my kids' welfare).

Sure, honey substitutes will flourish too, but what about Manuka and Sidr and Jarrah and Ulmo and myriad other floral types that will be licensed in coming months? The same people who will dilute real honey with Glucose will dilute those very marketable medicinal honeys with some less well known honey which will be cheaper to buy, and at the end of the day where will all the honey come from? ................... Certainly not from the moon or from Antarctica.

The big question should read like this? Do I especially need to convert my best investment into dollars at this moment, and if so, then how many dollars is appropriate at this moment? How much will the market bear? Honey is edible gold and daily fixes are not far away!

Cheers, and happy marketing!

JohnS


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## irwin harlton

International Honey Market - Challenges and Opportunities



September 17, 2009

Ronald P. Phipps

President, CPNA International, Ltd.

Co-Chairman, Committee for the Promotion of Honey and Health1. Introduction



http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2009.09.18.17.13.archive.html


the game has started


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## Wee3Bees Apiary

Irwin,

Thanks for the link in your last post. That was and EXCELLENT article on honey. I'm going to save it in my files. Everyone needs to read it if they haven't (and start raising our prices 50% each year from now on)...


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## irwin harlton

Talked to Odem Internatioal this a.m. Elyse said there seems to be a unlimited supply of Chinese funny honey, ultrafiltered,the stuff that has the antibiotic's removed, its blended or adultrated with rice syrup, or some unknown ,untraceable sugar( German labs looking for what it is)
This stuff is actually a packers dream, 75-80 /lb and can be blended into any honey for the result you want. Sometimes a little good honey is added by the Chinese to bring up the quality, pollen count.(Some packer or packers making alot of money here)

She said without this on the market current world prices would be approaching 2.00/lb.......there is that much of a shortage, supplies are tight

Odem is currently offering 1.60Can for 25mm or better


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## suttonbeeman

a packer told me today white honey was at 1.35 and he thought it would go up to 1.45. what a joke....he offered me .30 for some dark amber old honey I got from another beekeepers estate. a bigger joke.... sugar is .50!


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## irwin harlton

The cheapest place to buy white honey in the past 12 months ( with the exception of Chinese honey ) has been in the USA.There is tremendous pressure to keep this market of raw product low priced, weather it be the poor economy,or cheap Chinese honey.There is a world shortage of white honey and the price will continue to move upward.It is supply and demand and honey sales are holding up well from what I hear. 

http://honey.com/honeyindustry/stats/PriceRetail.htm AND http://honey.com/honeyindustry/stats/PriceWholesale.htm tell part of the story


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## Doug Virginia

I am a growing beek and am in touch with several LARGE beeks who do not have the time to get on here; anyways the one packs in barrels only, I think and he is getting $1.80 a pound FOB at his house and he states it is going out as fast as he can extract. This man does not embelish either, very honest. Although his buyers are crying about the price they ARE paying it.

Another one I know has developed over the last 30 years a large market for buckets. I know for a fact everything he does goes into buckets. This year did almost 2500 pails and he is getting $110 as of last week and it is selling fairly briskly at that price too. He just raised his price up $10 up from a $100.

AND no I do not know who they are selling to either.


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## The Honey Householder

I've never sold honey like I did this year. I've got to thanks all those that bought from me this year. It's just to bad I only produce 49 ton this year. Last year at this time I still had 30 ton in inventory. All I have left is 2800 pounds in buckets. I sold all of my honey for $1.65-1.85. Take that back I just sold my 3 barrels of melter honey for $1.35 a pound. My buyers don't like the price but with 48 ton out the door and still getting calls. I just think there is not enough US honey for the smaller packers this year. Sorry but it is the producer that is setting the price this year. This bigger packers will just have to buy that good out foreign honey blend or what ever they call it now at days. The big packers low balled me all season and it all GONE. I know I'm only 2 1/2 semi load producer, but if we all are selling the same way this year. That has got to hurt.:doh: As a second generation honey producer it FEELS GOOD!!!

If the honey producers can't make a living, and goes out of business. How is the packer going to get honey to sell. This is what has been going on for years. Less and less producers and then a bad year and the price goes sky high. If there is any US honey left by Chirstmas it will be over $2.00 a pound in the barrel.


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## Tom G. Laury

Way to go Ron.
I believe you do have an impact on the market; a positive one from a producers view. Every vote counts.:thumbsup:


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## jean-marc

How is the packer going to get honey to sell.

That's pretty easy. He's just going to get more foreign honey like he has been doing for the past 15-20 years. Probably will be a little darker than he would like it to be, but don't you worry he'll find it. 

The honey industry need to address 2 key issues. One being adulteration. This practise has to end. Somehow we need quick and inexpensive tests to determine if honey is pure. Somehow only pure honey should be able to make it to market. It is certainly not the case now.The other issue is the one of residues. Like Ron Phipps said producers need to be able to protect their livestock and consummers need to eat a healthfull food. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that honey is pristine and free of any and all contaminates. We as an industry need reasonable tolerances for residues so that we can protect our bees from pests and diseases. Remember the chloramphenicol (sp?) issue. I always thought that the biggest mistake that the chinese did was using the wrong antibiotic. I also remember some honey being rejected because 3 parts per billion of chloramphenicol was found in the honey. Some honey was in the order of 200 parts per billion. Now at 3 parts per billion I'm unlikely to believe any arguement that this is a health issue. The mistake on the chinese part was the wrong choice of antibiotic to access world honey market. Had they used oxytetetracycline it would have been a non issue even at 200 ppb. Why the chinese used chloramphenicol, now that's another issue. I suspect resistance to other antibiotics.

Somehow the world honey industry need to address this. Lately it's been a case of finger pointing. I don't think anybody will come out victorious with that kind of strategy. There may be some temporary advantages/set backs but no long term gains to be had IMHO.

Comments?

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

In the famous words from Nancy at Dutch Bronze, when asked about the shortage of honey.
"I don't think theres a shortage, the honey always seEms to come from somewhere"


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## kiwiBee

I don't know about other parts of the world but for us personally here in New Zealand we struggle to get a fair price for every aspect of our beekeeping income from pollination to propolis to honey. I feel that as beekeepers we are undervalued and our industry is not taken seriously.
I get fedup with working so hard to turn around and sell honey at $4 a kilo and know that it's being shipped and onsold at 4-5 times that price.
here in new zealand we have a huge amount of food safety regulations to adhere too and until recently have been able to produce honey with no chemicals in the hive at all with the arrival of varroa we now have to treat with miticide. We dont treat for AFB the hives are destroyed, we can't sell honey thats been in supers treated with PDB so it's not used. The honey is as good as you can get it and yet the packers will not give you a fair price for it. Makes me so mad


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## irwin harlton

A little history of chloramphenicol in chinese honey

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/bees.htm

This article was written in feb. 2003, yet in 2009 chloramphenciol was still used to identify chinese honey


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## Ian

>The honey industry need to address 2 key issues. One being adulteration. ......The other issue is the one of residues

I completely agree.
Our honey traded on the open market will fetch its fair price. 
but our honey right now isnt trading against itself, but rather adulterated honey and blends.
The consumer has to be able to recognize the difference between the honey they are buying and the honey they think they are buying. 
If the consumer is able to recognize the difference, our honey will again trade against itself again


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## John Smith

I suspect the Chloramphenicol to be more to do with the trade war than with any concerns for public health. Here are some of the questions I wrestle with and (my own) trial answers:

How does it come about that the big users of Chloramphenicol (China and Argentina) are also the largest exporters of honey? Is Chloramphenicol more effective than Western Antibiotics? Is it about the honey or is this an effort to protect the market from cheap Chinese antibiotic competition.

If the Chinese and the Argentineans are consuming all this poison, why aren’t their people dying like flies from cancer? What country has the most cancer? It wouldn’t be one on the North American Continent, now would it?

Carcinogens............... wow! what a powerful word. Salt is a carcinogen! Oxygen is a killer! People drown in water! Now Tamiflu, that great product we want to make compulsory for folk suffering from Swine Flu Fear, it wouldn’t be a carcinogen, .................. unless, of course one was reading the Beijing Newspapers.

OK, so I suspect China could be seen as a major competitor of Western Medicine Companies. Give any laboratory in the Western Bloc countries enough funding and they could find valid (to their minds and in their language only) reasons to reject any Chinese medicine. I also suspect any lab in China could do the same with Western Medicines.

Governments have shown a distinct tendency to ignore any dilution of honey with cheap manufactured syrups, as they know the masses must be fed, and they sure don’t want food prices to rise. But let someone threaten the Pharmaceutical Industries, and governments worldwide will pounce on the offenders with or without legal justification and authority to do so.

Honey is also a threat to these massive and powerful industries, so if we can kill two birds with one stone, what a win - win scoop that would be.

Hence, it follows that if we beekeepers want to survive, we need to quit trying to compete with supermarket honey and start promoting REAL honey, our own honey; honey from flowers and charge the customer enough to make it worth our time. Smart honey packers will do the same. Britain's beekeepers woke up to this one maybe thirty years ago. They get premium prices for local honey BUT NOT BY MARKETING IT THROUGH SUPERMARKETS!

The simple fact that we fail to dignify honey and promote it to its proper level of respect in the marketplace will have to be ignored and forgiven, as that is our main weakness and one we are not likely to overcome in the near term.

When honey does receive its proper recognition for the superior health giving qualities it brings us, it will be because the public at large create that change. It seems quite unlikely that beekeepers collectively will have much input into making that wave. 
One good honest Doctor (Dr. Ron Fessenden, in his book, “The Honey Revolution”) is more likely to trigger that wave than most of the beekeepers I know. There are some fine exceptions too!

In the mean time, Westerners continue to die from every conceivable malady, too blinded by the sales spin of modern medicine to accept a little help from honey, and this is all good for the economy. But it will not always be this way. The worm is turning.

Good Luck and Long Life!

JohnS


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## irwin harlton

Comments?

Jean-Marc 

You are right the two biggest problems or challenges facing this industry are adulteration and residues

Adulteration has been around since the beginning , I think, I recall a test of grocery store honey in the early 70's coming up with a very high percentage of honey possibly being adulterated, the tests back then were nowhere as a accurate as we got today.So we can readily detect if honey is adulterated.The same applies to residues.

The USA's biggest problem is there is no clear precise definition of honey, as a food on the shelf

When a problem is found by a "Good" PACKER, the honey is returned to the seller, broker, instead of being destroyed,.... for whatever reason.... could it be the cost of destroying this product ? OR JUST easier to let someone else pack it and take the risk,( seems low) whatever the reason it just adds to the amount of cheaper adulterated honey or residue tainted honey

The honey police ,weather it be the industry or the gov't have been very lax,( very small industry) only pressure from AHPD and reputable packers competing with the bad product have brought forward the seriousness of the problem.This bad honey has also had a profound effect on prices, allowing the packers both good and bad the best of both worlds

The only honey I ever heard of being destroyed by FDA was a load from Canada,in old rusty drums containing lead paint chips,off the drums...... went down a empty mine shaft in Arizona, if my facts are straight

Just my opinion, like to hear others


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## jean-marc

So what is today price? Who's offering what? 

Jean-Marc


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## Beeslave

Yesterday I was offered $1.40 for ELA and $1.44 for W per lbs. for 30 drums picked up at my place. Buyer pays shipping. I declined!


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## J-Bees

Beeslave said:


> Yesterday I was offered $1.40 for ELA and $1.44 for W per lbs. for 30 drums picked up at my place. Buyer pays shipping. I declined!


That's Ok cause there is still plenty of overseas honey on the market.


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## irwin harlton

From Mid US Honey hot line 763 658 4193 report of SEPT 20 One load sold at 1.46, seller described his crop as fair .Speaker comments on the mid US crop.....not sounding like a good crop


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## jean-marc

Every one seems to know that except the packers. Then the conversation goes "I heard such and such area had a great crop, lots of honey out there, blah blah blah... some good Argentina, plenty of honey from China or blends or adulterated honey on the market so I can offer you this price", which is usually disappointing from the beekeeper's point of view. It would be kinda nice if they had another tune to their repertoire. I mean it's getting kinda boring hearing the same old song and dance.

Jean-Marc


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## wbee

irwin harlton said:


> Heard the hottest market right now is Asia-Japan paying well above current US prices


Japan is a very good market right now.....


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## sqkcrk

jean-marc said:


> So what is today price? Who's offering what?
> 
> Jean-Marc


The annual question. I don't really have an answer. But the question always makes me think of the year that I called a Northeast Packer about their price. They said that they were paying something kinda high, but they weren't buying any at that time. So what's the point of saying that I'll pay you $X.XX for your honey, but I don't want any at this time?

How much can you sell your honey for Jean-Marc? I'm offering $1.30/lb.


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## jean-marc

I sold a load $1.60 Canadian, sorta had too, it was sitting outside under tarps in a not so secure place. I was not desperate for the money but I wasn't looking for work that would have been required to get an extra shipping container, move bees to make room for it. Then move the honey wait a whole bunch of time and maybe get an extra 10 cents or perhaps 25 cents. I'm sure the market is going upwards but how high and when will it move upwards? $1.60 sounded fairly reasonable at the time.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

A good marketing plan has to involve selling "some" honey


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## themrbee

mark
wixons paying 1.45


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## wildbranch2007

themrbee said:


> mark
> wixons paying 1.45


if wixons is paying 1.45 then the other packers should be checked as he is usually the lowest around

mike


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## sqkcrk

themrbee said:


> mark
> wixons paying 1.45


Jerry has more capital than I do.


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## sqkcrk

wildbranch2007 said:


> if wixons is paying 1.45 then the other packers should be checked as he is usually the lowest around
> 
> mike


Not so much so since Roscoe died. From what I have heard. I think Jerry's prices are pretty competitive w/ Dutfch Gold and it's subsidiary McLures, in NH.


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## irwin harlton

HONEY MARKET FOR THE MONTH OF September, 2009,issued oct 15 2009


http://www.honey.com/honeyindustry/statistics.asp

see USDA Price Reports, click on National honey report


Maybe the honey "bubble" has burst and prices will be trending downward.Maybe demand has fallen off and the so called shortage will become a oversupply


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## irwin harlton

Using the inflation calculator at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
and using some past historic honey prices, bulk honey sold for .50/lb in 1973= 2.40/lb in 2008
Prices varied over the following years, influenced by large crops, imports, from a record high of $0.61 per pound in 1981 to $0.54 in 1993. 

.61/lb in 1981=1.43/lb in 2008 .54/lb in1993 =.79/lb in 2008


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## jean-marc

Irwin, I just scanned quickly over the NHB report. I'm not sure why you speculate that the honey bubble has burst or why demand is decreasing? I didn't see that there but I wasn't paying attention too closely.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

Just seems to me that looking at the prices reportedly being paid in sept,in USA, are not reflecting a world shortage of white honey.Plus we have a short US and Canadian crop.No doubt packers are waiting for the official report on these crops
Current Canadian prices are higher than US,compliments of our strong rising loonie.
The US prices I think have something to do with the present economic conditions in the US where some commodities are still in the deflation mode.If we look at the last 3 years of prices ,honey has come along way, doubling in price from 2006, and personally I think it has along ways to go, but I could be wrong


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## John Smith

I think you are right, Irwin.

I think the big boys are trying to sell the idea that prices will ease because that is what they want to see happen.

No problem. I am doing the same just in reverse. I want to see prices increase, so I talk them up. One simply has to consider the source to decode the message. Buyers used to call any such talk about rising prices “Beekeeper Talk.” So I consider the “Buyer Talk” to be just as tainted.

I’m reading a new book about the healing power of honey now. Surely I am not the only person in the world doing that. (Healing Honey by Dr. Lynne Chepulis http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Honey-Natural-Remedy-Wellness/dp/1599424851)

I see no way but up for world honey prices, even if only as a result of inflation. But with honey being grossly undervalued for what seems like a century, I can’t imagine the price falling substantially. On the contrary, if the trend towards natural sweetness continues, which I feel certain it will, the relative price of honey should keep climbing too. 

By relative price, I mean despite the inflation component, honey’s value relative to glucose, oil and toothpaste: honey will be VALUED more, regardless of what it is compared to. Just a rise in price due to failing values in currency does not guarantee honey is keeping pace with inflation. If we lose too much more ground from inflation, we are off the map.

With honey having only about 1 % of the sweeteners market, we sure don’t need many more mouths to embrace it and the demand will have doubled. We don’t need the entire 6 billion people on earth on board. All we really need is a simple test the consumer can do at home to test whether the product is real honey or has been cut with some manufactured syrup.

Cheers.
JohnS


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## Wee3Bees Apiary

I have a copy of an old bee magazine from the late 1800s (US) and it has a 17 year diary of a beekeeper whose records showed all of his expenses, sales and pounds produced each year. I will have to find it and post his data soon.

However, based on his experience with honey production, cost and sales (from over 125 years ago) my thoughts are that the price of honey was pretty well stable in the last one hundred years. My opinion is based on the fact that I used his prices and plugged them into an inflation chart from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank and came up with an inflation adjusted price of slightly over $1 per pound.

The bad news is that I don't know whether this gentleman sold his honey at a wholesale or retail price (which makes a difference). Honey prices appear to have remained constant to the US Dollar and inflation rates. This makes perfect sense whilst we were on a gold standard (until 1971).

Now, I believe that the most important factor in determining what prices we could get for honey at the wholesale (bulk) level is how much our dollar appreciates or depreciates to a basket of other major currencies.

The US Dollar has decreased by 44% since the beginning of 2000 against the EURO (ending May, 2009). This would mean a price increase of honey to maintain the status quo of about 79% since the year 2000.

What was the price of honey in the year 2000? I'm not 100% certain, but was it around $0.80 per pound? If so, then the price of $1.50 US Dollar is just keeping up with the US Dolllar's depreciation against our major trading partners.

The question that I would be asking myself is how much higher or lower is the US Dollar going to go in the next 5 to 10 years? The answer to that question will shape the focus of my bee operation. I believe that the US government has no choice but to deflate the US dollar to pay back all of our nation's debt.

Looking back to the year 2000 how the US Dollar has declined against our major trading partners as a base year and projecting a similar decline in the next ten years, then honey prices should be well over $2.25 per pound at the wholesale level IMHO. On the other hand, we could see $2.25 per pound during 2010 or 2011...

P. S. I am not an economist, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.


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## The Honey Householder

I went back over my books to see what the 2000 crop paid. I had two semi loads that sold for $.62 a pound for wht. honey. 
The US is in a big honey shortage right now. If you are a producer in the US, you are the one setting the prices. I only produced 49 ton this year, which is a short corp for me. The 2009 crop is a thing of the past for me. The packers didn't like my prices but they paid them. I had to hear how they couldn't make anything this year because of the high price of honey. They was just trying to keep there customers. And I'm just one selling my crop to stay in business each year. It's OK that the producer make out some years too. If it wasn't for the producer producing honey, the packers wouldn't have anything to pack. And if it was for you packer packing and selling our honey we would need to produce it. 
I can't wait to see what 2010 crop is going bring. I just hope 2009 wasn't the peek year.


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## John Smith

I can't see any reason why the 2010 crop should fetch any thing less than the 2009 one is fetching. 

Those poor packers (oh dear, I'm out of tissues to wipe my eyes with) would do better to stop crying about not making any money and start selling honey at prices they too can benefit from. If they can't do that, they might as well go broke as far as I am concerned. They are not good for the industry, nor for me. Anyone who can't sell honey in today's marketplace is not a salesman, he is a supplier only.

My prediction is though, that by the time 2010 is over, everyone will be wishing they had held over the 2009 crop, or part thereof anyway.

The Eastern States of Australia are experiencing drought like you wouldn't believe. Honey flows are just not happening, well, maybe one day per week, but my bees are living day to day, week to week. We get an hour or two of spring every day as the weather goes from frost to fierce dry wind and piercing hot sun. In the evening, we may get another little touch of spring, but there are less bees alive then.

Meanwhile, the retail market's awareness of honey continues to expand. It is only the people within the industry who refuse to change their rhetoric! Bad Luck for them!

Cheers,

JohnS


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## The Honey Householder

Just checking on the honey price. I've had packers call me in the past two days looking for honey. I know when the packers start calling the price is getting ready to go up. I only wish I still had a load of honey to sell. The load quotes was above $1.50+. Which for me I sold everything sofar this year early for $1.65 an up, to the smaller guys. I think the shorage is starting to show.


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## suttonbeeman

Had a call today....two large packers offering 1.60 for ex la.


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## Wee3Bees Apiary

I'm liking it as I have 13 drums of extra light amber and 8 drums of white left. opcorn:

Anyone out there thinking that the year 2010 will usher in $2 per pound of ELA? I will go out on a limb and speculate that we will see that kind of price somewhere in 2010.


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## Wee3Bees Apiary

BTW my wife got a quote from one of the largest producers in the USA last week for $1.60 per pound of clover. Would that be ELA or white? I don't really see any clover honey down here... at least as a monocrop.


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## irwin harlton

*US Honey crop comes up short*

"So, this year our predictions are that 2.223 million colonies (down from last year because of colony losses to colony collapse disorder and last year’s poor honey crop) will produce 53.7 pounds of honey each, for a total of 119.37 million pounds of U. S. produced honey ... this is, friends, the worst honey crop ever. EVER!"

Read more: http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/bees/honey-beekeeping-47102806#ixzz0VXApIIPX


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## jean-marc

So what's the current market price? I think there is not much movement of honey in Canada. The US currency has softened so I think that US buyers are hesitating to purchase Canadian honey as it costs them more. The longer they wait though, the less honey there is, the more price goes up. 

The other side of that coin is the incentive for cheating increases. So what will the cheating chinese rascals come up with next?

Interestingly Kim Flottum points out that Europe is now purchasing all kinds of chinese honey. He questions the residue issue and doubts that chinese beekeeping practises have changed to the point where residues would not be an issue I would reply that residue issues diminish with many packers as the price diminishes.

Jean-Marc


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## JohnK and Sheri

jean-marc said:


> So what will the cheating chinese rascals come up with next?
> Jean-Marc


This isn't a "Chinese" problem. It is a problem with some U.S. (maybe Canadian as well?) packers. If _they_ were really interested in policing tainted honey imports, circumvented honey or mislabeled "honey blends", instead of colluding with them, there would be no market. 
I suspect the honest beekeepers, importers and packers in _any_ country are appalled by the bottom dwellers amongst them and find competing on an uneven playing field increasingly frustrating. 
Sheri


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## suttonbeeman

well said sherri!


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## JohnK and Sheri

Oh, almost forgot! A local beek was offered $1.68 for _half_ a load of white, by a medium large packer. Who knows, maybe prices will start reflecting the actual supply situation for a change. Maybe this is the year we pay down the trucks, update that old equipment and buy a new Swinger. :applause:
Sheri


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## JohnLaurino

JohnK and Sheri said:


> This isn't a "Chinese" problem. It is a problem with some U.S. (maybe Canadian as well?) packers. If _they_ were really interested in policing tainted honey imports, circumvented honey or mislabeled "honey blends", instead of colluding with them, there would be no market.
> I suspect the honest beekeepers, importers and packers in _any_ country are appalled by the bottom dwellers amongst them and find competing on an uneven playing field increasingly frustrating.
> Sheri


chinese "funny" honey is a nightmare for anyone serious about selling genuine honeys. I think most of you already know but few days ago we had a chinese executive pleading guilty in a fraud/circumvention case from Chicago, still a consequence of Alfred Wolf's process : http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-fri-honey-1030-oct30,0,7537759.story?track=rss


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## JohnLaurino

This year has been a disaster in various important honey sourcing countries, it is unlike that such horrible crops will repeat next year. At the same time the economic situation is still far from a comfort zone thus i believe there are chances to declining prices from March to September 2010. In Brazil we have an overall production of app 38,000 tons (2009 estimative) for a domestic consumption of app 12,000 tons. I think brazilian output will continue growing next year what will certainly help to mitigate the supply shortage.


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## JohnK and Sheri

JohnLaurino, welcome to the board!
Yes, the funny honey is a nightmare but not if packers would refuse to buy it.....honest beekeepers, packers and importers/exporters should all be yelling for better policing and higher penalties. Labeling sugar as honey is fraud afterall.
I see you are an exporter from Brazil. What is the current color profile of the Brazil honey you represent? With Brazil's huge growth potential, do you foresee that profile changing? I have heard there are diminishing amounts of white coming from both Brazil and Argentina, and much of that white will go to Europe. 
Sheri


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## JohnLaurino

Most of brazilian honeys are LA, I would say 50%. 20% ELA, 15% white and 15% amber or darker. I think such distribution should stay stable in the next years. Brazil is set to be an exporter as large as Argentina, it is a question of 4 years or less. Argentina transformed huge areas into soy plantations in the past 3 years. This pushed beekeepers to areas where the climate is adverse to the bees almost every year (dry). I think Argentina will have hard time to export 85,000 tons of honey as they were used to do until couple of years ago.This year they did 45,000 or so. That's why white honey prices are skyrocketing. Because the exchange rate advantage the german traders took the majority of production from Argentina. Same happenned with mexican output. As crops in Canada and US were also very bad, US packers are just desperate for white honeys what explains current pricing.

About the funny honeys : the cost of circumventing is increasing every day. Sooner or later I think we will see more people being charged and behind the bars. Presently I see that honest importers and packers are still depressed because the industry chain is completely disrupted by the crooks.


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## jean-marc

Sheri I agree to a point that without a buyer there would be no market. I don't think it's the packers role to police what comes out of china.

The reason I point the finger at china is because a very large percentage of "funny honey" if not all of it comes that country. It is after all a communist country so I think much of the policing work should be done by them not american or canadian packers. I'm hoping that china is approching that point. With so many alarm bells going off in regards to chinese honey it must be getting increasingly difficult to operate for them to be able to access the US market. I'm pretty sure they have some other card up their sleeve, I can't really imagine what it is. In any event it'll be interesting to see when they play it.

Mr Laurino: Bom dia.

Jean-Marc


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## JohnK and Sheri

jean-marc said:


> Sheri I agree to a point that without a buyer there would be no market. I don't think it's the packers role to police what comes out of china.


Well, I think it IS their job to police what they bottle. It is called quality control and they sure inspect _our_ honey and run _our_ honey through a battery of tests. If they don't know what is in the Chinese honey it is because they don't want to.

I agree that circumvented honey and the blends is a customs responsibility. Some countries are making it more difficult to use them to launder their dirty honey, and the blends labeling somehow needs to be addressed. But here again, with the "blends", are these sent in without an order? Does the customer pay what "honey" should go for? Perhaps a little less due to the ability to come in without the tariff? IMO, a lot of people are blinking at the right time.

Yes, I am hopeful that China will address these issues as well. Their credibility is being called into question and certainly can hurt their access to the markets through punitive actions such as implemented here in the US. Those actions turn into a bad joke when there is no enforcement, not only hurting us here, but the beekeepers, packers and exporters trying honestly to compete with these bad actors. 
As for who should enforce the rules, usually that comes down to who is negatively impacted the worst from non-enforcement. So far, that has been first, the North American beekeepers, second the packers. But in truth, the world beekeeping industry is effected. Should China clean up it's act? Absolutely, but until they do, _we_ need to cut them off at the borders.



jean-marc said:


> I'm pretty sure they have some other card up their sleeve, I can't really imagine what it is. In any event it'll be interesting to see when they play it.Jean-Marc


Well, the fact they hold a dangerous amount of our debt doesn't help. The mitigating factor is we are their biggest customer, but the more we limit access to our consumers the less attractive that debt is.
Sheri


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## Ian

Argentina has planted a huge soybean crop, and they are getting rains. The cropping news is that the crop is off to a great start, and they are expecting rains through out the rest of the growing season due to the change in the ocean currents.

How will this affect the honey pricing here? Soybean will not give them a white honey, but will give them honey to sell.


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## jean-marc

The acreage that has been dedicated to growing soybeans previously had pasture. Apparentlyn the pasture had clover which produced more honey and whiter honey. This coupled with the drought dramatically reduced honey production.

I would think that after 3 years of drought, colony numbers must be down and the overall shape of hives should be poor. I would think that even with good conditions it will take them at least 1 season, perhaps more, to get back on their feet. 3 years of drought must rattle your nerves and break your confidence. They probably don't have a whole bunch of cash to throw at their bees.

Invariably the packers will say bumper crop or lots of honey in Argentina in an effort to suppress prices.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

from http://www.apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm

2009-11-04

ARGENTINA- A LARGE AREA IS AFFECTED BY DROUGHT 
Paradoxes of climate. While in Entre Rios producers rush to impulse the evacuation of cows due to the flooded of Parana river, in a vast region of the humid pampas are praying that the rains come. At least 40% of the Pampas region continues to face a situation of severe drought. Ten million hectares of arable land in the country are affected by the drought, a total of 30 million hectares. According to Cesar Rebelo, director of Climate and Water Institute of the National Institute of Agricultural Technology (INTA) Castelar, the most affected areas are in central, west, south and north of Cordoba, north of Santa Fe, Chaco, southern and western Buenos Aires, La Pampa and Santiago del Estero part.


2009-11-05

ARGENTINA- WEATHER FORECAST FOR THE LAST QUARTER OF THE YEAR 
Conducted by the National Weather Service. 


2009-11-08

ARGENTINA- HIGH TEMPERATURES AND LACK OF RAINS, ARE DESTROYING THE CHACO PROVINCE APICULTURE
The journalist specializing Federico Petrera (s) interviews Mr. Carlos Villavicencio from Juan José Castelli in the province of Chaco, who says that due to the high temperatures melt the hives, besides the loss of live material by drought conditions, which has made the current crop fail 



After our summer, and or what one might call the last 6 months of seasons, I wonder what is called normal or seasonal weather, it was 18 Celsius (64.4 degrees Fahrenheit )here yesterday.Bees were out flying, nothing for them to get, but every nice day now shortens the long winter


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## irwin harlton

Argentina production doesn't bother me as much as the possible increase of honey production in Brazil,their subsidies and increasing production capability.....Eucalyptus and year round honey flows




http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1382907...and-Jose-Maria-A-Mendes-Filho--VCP-Brazil-(2)


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## jean-marc

I've been visiting Brazil for the last 7 years and you are right Irwin, this is definitely where the next major competition will come from. The area where I've been at is mostly small and sideliners, in the Northeast is where a lot of the production comes from. Apparently they as a nation are gearing up. The bees are somewhat fiesty but in my limited time there I've not seen the horror stories you hear about.

I visited a research station that has been selecting for honey production good temperament and a lower swarming impulse. They've been doing that for 30 years now. Those bees were manageable from what I saw, but they were not harvesting honey. They had varroa but no medications were used to control them. I was able to stand beside 5 frame nucs in shorts with no veil and that was not possible when they started their breeding efforts.

I would hate to have to work those bees in 90 F weather with a high humidity factor, 2 sets of coveralls on, as a northener it would kill me and most others I know.

The good news is labour is relatively cheap, so is land and beehives. People are mostly kind and I think it would be a nice place to live.

Jean-Marc


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## ArtD

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-fri-honey-1030-oct30,0,7537759.story?track=rss
Notice a $250k fine and maybe 5yrs for $4 million. Sounds like a deal to me.


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## Bens-Bees

Only if he manages to stay out of China. The Chinese govt. would probably execute him at this point (not for doing what he did, but for getting caught).


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## irwin harlton

Heard from a reliable source that a major Canadian buyer has dropped his offering from 1.60 to 1.50............... all part of the game packers play., this will make his 1.60price offering 2 months down the road loOk really good( so he thinks), HE must have got enough at 1.60 to last him awhile and enough to blend into his Argentina honey to lighten it up .Maybe he was getting a little flack from his US packer friends over his higher price offering .I have this feeling that gold is not the only commodity that is going to soar within the next couple of months,white honey is sometimes referred to as liquid gold when in short supply and its definitely in short supply


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## 123456789

irwin harlton said:


> Heard from a reliable source that a major Canadian buyer has dropped his offering from 1.60 to 1.50............... all part of the game packers play., this will make his 1.60price offering 2 months down the road loOk really good( so he thinks), HE must have got enough at 1.60 to last him awhile and enough to blend into his Argentina honey to lighten it up .Maybe he was getting a little flack from his US packer friends over his higher price offering .I have this feeling that gold is not the only commodity that is going to soar within the next couple of months,white honey is sometimes referred to as liquid gold when in short supply and its definitely in short supply


Irwin, you western folks need to get a warehouse in Ontario. There is a good demand for honey among smaller beekeepers here. At 5-20 barrels at a time it is selling for $1.80 lb CASH!


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## jean-marc

123456:

I have honey, don't need a warehouse , just need a truck to put it on and a check, it's really that simple.

Jean-Marc


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## 123456789

jean-marc said:


> 123456:
> 
> I have honey, don't need a warehouse , just need a truck to put it on and a check, it's really that simple.
> 
> Jean-Marc


 I know a couple of dozen guys that move about 50 barrels a year but they are not beekeepers. None of them buy it by the truckload and a 'check' is a dirty word.


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## John Smith

Honey Packers are not 'bad' people. They are having as much trouble making a living out of honey as we are. They just look bad to us because they are next up line and are the ones paying us. 

The best and most workable reason why they put the price back down is that they know as well as we do that putting the price up will not produce any more honey, not in the short term. And if your bank was threatening to foreclose on you, would you be worrying about the long term state of the industry?

If they were really 'bad' people, we could get rid of them all (perhaps overnight), by simply refusing to sell them any honey for twelve months. The reality is, however, that the bank is breathing down our neck too, so we play the game. The glucose makers will do well filling in where we leave off, assuming they can get some wheat.

It is you guys who bother to market your own honey who are winning. The convenience of sending it all off on one truck to one packer is fatally habit forming, and those who persist with that one pay the price in the long term. Honey prices are great, at the retail level and the small wholesale level too.

There is not enough honey in the whole world to warrant anyone doing big advertising, promoting and really selling honey. There hasn't been enough to warrant that for maybe 30 years or more. It is only the public who can (AND ARE NOW) pushing the price up, so we the producers need to promote our own product in our own locality. We do that part better than anyone else, anyway, as the public love a good bee story. 

All the people between us and the consumer in the supply chain will never promote honey, nor will they gain anything by trying to push the price up. They only eke out a living by increasing their volume, which is pretty hard to do these days (with real honey, anyway). However, they will all come on line as quick as a spreadsheet recalculates its bottom line once the demand is in place and the supply can match it.

Inflation being what it is, any product must keep pace with it or perish. Honey has had its moments to surge ahead and catch up with inflation and is overdue for another one. Inflation being what it is (again), makes it doubly hard, however, to actually keep up, as like osteoporosis, inflation eats away at the very bones of our civilizations until they collapse. 

There are always those who contentedly cry "GREED" when we mention pushing the price up, and good luck to them. If they have supplemental income, a working wife or a good inheritance coming, they are OK. But to get more honey produced we need to consider the young fellow, with a pregnant wife, no farm, no truck, no hope. If he cannot get a few beehives and start capitalising a business, then the industry dies and civilization as we know it goes down with him.

So we must fight to keep pace (as much as humanly possible) with the constant failings of our currency. This present shortage is the best opportunity we have had for 30 or forty years to make that work. If we don't push up our prices now, who can say when again the opportunity will present itself? 

The bee underpins the very foundations of our civilization. If saving the whale can attract billions of dollars, there must be plenty out there too for the bees. I want my part of it, and you deserve your part of it too. But as long as we are happy to lie down and die silently, there are plenty of others waiting to take over the microphone.

So we can change our perspective on honey packers by becoming one ourselves!

What are they doing about the price of honey? What are YOU doing about the price of honey? You had it first!

Cheers,

JohnS


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## Bens-Bees

I think we do our own selves in by not setting our own prices a little higher. We have a quality product, and we should treat it as such.


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## jean-marc

123456:

Whether the fellows you know purchase a truckload at a time or not is unimportant. Somehow it's gotta get to them, hence trucks. If they have a hard time paying for honey or think check is a dirty word, I now understand why they have a hard time sourcing honey.

Jean-Marc


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## John Smith

Uh, um, oooo.
Jean-Marc, check is a dirty word to the vendors, not the buyers.

How much gold did you buy yesterday and pay for it with a check? Not much, I'll bet.

The SgtMaj has it right. We shoot ourselves in the foot when we let other people tell us what our very worthy product is worth.

Maybe all North American beekeepers are young people, and I show my age by remembering some things of yesteryear, but here in Australia, lots of beekeepers got stung when a honey buyer went bust.

In God we Trust. All others: please pay cash.

When I part with real honey, I want real money in return. Why should that be considered immoral?

Cheers,

JohnS


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## JohnLaurino

John,

We have the same situation all over the world, it belongs to the nature of business. As far as I know the packers are very much necessary elements of the chain, they manage different levels of risks which beekeepers or coops would not be able to sleep with. Also, they have the capability of regulating the market as long as they are able to blend different types of honeys from different countries in order to fulfill the needs both of the retailers and industrial users all over the year. The industry faces a big issue with the "glucose" makers who are flooding America with a product that everybody knows comes out from assembly lines, not from hives. This is what is disturbing the whole market ALL OVER THE WORLD, not only America. On the top of this we have the economic crisis and the consequent apreciation of the dollar. Thus, we are living in a not friendly world and it is normal people to get more defensive and bitter. During difficult times the concept of supply chain is naturally more questioned but, from my point of view, should be more protected and improved. Our common enemy, the glucose guys, are as strong as the russian winter. We all may take years to overcome this issue as we will need support and coordinated efforts from different governments and authorities. About the formation of prices I have to say there is only one type of price I know, the doable price. There is no expensive nor cheap honey, there is the honey that you can sell or not in a given moment. If all beekeepers in North America decided to not sell anything to any packer during one year, the price of honey would skyrocket all over the world. This would make beekeeping more and more attractive for brazilians, uruguayans, chileans, viets, indian, aussie, mexican, kiwis, etc. In one or two years the production of honeys in other countries would be greatly increased and prices would then start to accomodate at lower levels. This is the history of the brazilian honey exports. Until 2002 we were not exporting significant volumes. It was the chinese crisis (when chinese honey was banned in EU) that gave the external push up to the business. In 2001 I was happy selling light amber @ USD 0.45/lb and had to fight to get buyers. Because China's problem, pricing then move up to USD 1.20/lb. The excellent price of honey motivated increase of production not only in Brazil but also in India, Vietnam, Chile, etc. As a result we had the price collapse in 2005-2006. I sold brazilian light amber in 2006 as low as USD 0.43/lb. In 2009 brazil will be the biggest foreign source of honeys to USA. It is the market !!!
The good thing for less developed countries like Brazil and Vietnam is that the governments realized that beekeeping can be a good tool for generating income in poor rural areas. So, presently there are official programs dedicated to educate and form beekeepers and improve thye quality and the yield of the hives. In other words, these countries are now established as important honey players and will gain share as the time goes. Argentina will be always an important player but you can be sure they will not be the largest exporters in very few years. By cultural reasons latin american people see honey much more as a medicine than as a food, the per capita consumption in Brazil is less than 100 gr. So there is a huge market to be explored in Brazil, Argentina and all countries in South and Central America ! By the way, we welcome foreign investors !

Cheers from the honey broker/


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## 123456789

jean-marc said:


> 123456:
> 
> Whether the fellows you know purchase a truckload at a time or not is unimportant. Somehow it's gotta get to them, hence trucks. If they have a hard time paying for honey or think check is a dirty word, I now understand why they have a hard time sourcing honey.
> 
> Jean-Marc


 Who said they have a hard time sourcing honey? In fact they are much sought after by producers.


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## jean-marc

123456:

Just assumed that if you suggest to Irwin to purchase a warehouse down east that it was perhaps because those potential buyers were having difficulties sourcing honey. Apparently not.

Jean-Marc


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## 123456789

John Smith;

'Check' is a dirty word for all parties involved, as is receipt. There ia a LOT of honey bought and sold that doesn't show up in statistics. As you pointed out, depending on packers is a fools game. Lots of smiles in 04' when they were paying $2.30, lots of tears in 05' when they were paying $0.85.

As long as producers sit and wait for their phone to ring, things won't change. Sadly we're a year or two away from $0.85 honey again.


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## 123456789

jean-marc said:


> 123456:
> 
> Just assumed that if you suggest to Irwin to purchase a warehouse down east that it was perhaps because those potential buyers were having difficulties sourcing honey. Apparently not.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Just pointing out a possible marketing approach for larger producers. Billy Bee will always sell a barrel or 10 or 20.


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## irwin harlton

http://skamberg.com/



Honey Update:

November 2009

Raw honey prices are still very firm. A smaller than expected USA crop, coupled with a lack of surplus raw honey in the world market have kept prices strong. Some available raw honey in the world market is being held for better pricing. At the same time, demand has been very strong from the consumer level through the food service and industrial levels. U.S. packers also struggle to compete for honey on the world market with the US weaker dollar versus other world currencies.

U.S.A. - The California raw honey crop was very poor, with continued drought in that state. Raw honey from the Southern part of the U.S., which produces much of the nations Light Amber honey, was also short. Very cool, wet conditions in the Upper Midwest (which produces most of the honey in the U.S.) reduced the crop substantially. The final 2009 crop numbers are not in, but some have projections indicated at 15% below last year's crop of 161 million lbs.

Canada - The weather was also very cool and wet in Canada. Their crop will be comparable to the U.S. in diminished production. Canadian honey prices usually parallel U.S. prices and are actually higher so far this year.

South America - Projections for the Argentina raw honey crop are dismal as drought continues to be a factor. Brazil, which produces almost year round, should be in better shape, but as Europe competes more and more for that honey, those prices remain strong.

India - India's crop is just starting to come in, and offerings from there are few. Demand for this honey will be high. Conditions are favorable for a good crop, but competition will be heavy and prices will be strong.


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## irwin harlton

No where does the above commentator talk about rising prices
Prices are"firm" and "strong".......I hate to admit he's right but I have to agree with him
However he is a large food broker closely tied to one of the largest US packers, Sue
I think his US honey crop estimation is a little high, but maybe Kim Flottum's is a little low.

"Some available raw honey in the world market is being held for better pricing. " I would say a lot of honey is being held off in anticipation of better than current prices.The packers know this.

Firm and strong prices at www.marketnews.usda.gov/portal/fv Phone: 202-720- 2175 FAX: 202-720-0547
www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf,........ No, I call it low balling the market


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## suttonbeeman

Now that you've mentioned Sue I have never ever been able to figure out why anyone would be a member of sue! Whats the benefits? You call and a truck comes to pick up your honey and leaves empty barrels. whats the down side? well where do we start....First off they retain 10%(if my memory is right)of your crop for 10 years for operating capitol. ( THis may have changed as I havent checked in 8 yrs)So If you produce 100 barrels of honey after ten years sue has 100 barrels of you honey(100k$$) that you could use to buy equipment, pay off debt, send your kids to collage or draw interest on. Now I realize interest rates are low now but historically will cost you 8-12 % for operating loan. Then you get paid X% on delivery, some more 60 or 90 days later and the balance use to be about a year. So a year later you got your money less 10%. So lets compare apples to apples. Packer "A" pays you in 30 days....sue pays over a long period of time less 10 %. When interest was at 8 percent back about 8 yrs ago I figured YOU were 10 cents a lb in the hole if you were a coop member.
Now for the biggie WHY on earth would a growers COOP import honey from CHINA? How do you support US producers doing that? If you read the articles in honey laundering in the seattle times(google seattle times honey laundering) Sue denied they imported honey from china....then admitted when he traced a container from china to sue that they "sometimes" found chlorophenicol....a give away as to chinese honey. If he (reporter) could figure out where the honey came from dont you think any packer could if he wanted to? According to my sources there were numerous comtainers of chinese honey sitting at Jacksonville port a few months ago headed for Sioux City Iowa. I dont know what packer but I do know of only one there to my knowledge! When a grower coop buys this crap..well why would you want to be a member? I think we need a new coop!!


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## jim lyon

Never have been a Sioux member but our family has been years ago. We got out for many of the reasons that you mentioned. As far as importing honey particularly honey of questionable quality the reasons are quite simple, they have a market for it and it improves the bottom line of the coop .......... at least in the short term. I know that power has always tended to reside with a few there but all members should not be afraid to speak up and let their voices be heard, after all it is a member owned cooperative. 
I will throw out one more little caveat that you may or may not have considered. Your retains (that they hold interest free) represent your stake of ownership in the company, a company that has considerable assets. In this day and age of fewer and bigger it is hardly out of the realm of possibility that a large food conglomerate with a large distribution network and efficiencies of scale far beyond what Sioux can do as a stand alone company could make an offer that can't be refused. In that case what would a 1% stake in a say $100 million dollar sale (Burt's Bees, I believe, sold for 180 million) be worth hmmmmmm.


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## irwin harlton

Everything in this world seems to have its place,..... even Sue selling Cheap Chinese honey to increase the bottom line for its members.It would have to have been unadulterated,not contain antibiotics( They test) and would or will be cheap, I heard such a commodity exists but is rare 
Good old Sue and Beemaid here in Canada sometimes have a hard time retaining their membership when prices soar and the open market gets crazy ( occurs once every 13 decades or less) These price peaks are relatively short lived and members flock back to the security of the co op........can't say I blame them for the risks are high.This trade seems to have more than its fair share of crooks , but security always comes with a price.

Someone, John Smith I think from Australia, also pointed out in the Skamburg blurb that the wording" lack of surplus raw honey" was used instead of shortage. Shortage entails rising or higher prices usually.....they certainly don't want to convey that concept , it just might get some world producers thinking about what their product is worth when there is very little to be had


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## mike farms

why slander the hand that feeds irwin sioux is the largest most respectable packer in the world....just because doemstic honey supply is 30% higher in price then imports there has to be something wrong. I have been in manufacturing overseas in many different industries and its pretty similar across the board. Cheaper labor = cheaper prices. Gasoline in the sadui arabian peninsula is under a dollar a gallon and here in NA its almost $3.50 why???


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## suttonbeeman

Two weeks ago pepper honey in fl offer from a florida packer was .90. This week 1.35. Pepper is not I repeat NOT a bottling honey!


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## irwin harlton

honey offerings in Canada continue to fall, we are are at1.40......I think very little will move at this low balling price, but this will certainly lower these buyers average cost if any is sold at all.
Canadian honey imports for 2009 are up 22% from 2008 ,up to August 2009..... so apparently they got lots of foreign honey to sell,blend

From Bee Culture magazine ,nov. 2009,November price report and 2009 crop estimate.

"This will undoubtedly lead to increases in imports to meet demand, and, with available overall global honey on hand at best average,there will be some probably dramatic price increases.
If you have honey in a tank somewhere this Fall...guard it carefully and sell it cautiously."

Canadian honey broker is quoted as saying that there is so much cheap ,adulterated,imported honey on the US east coast, packed into warehouses that the entire US East coast has sunk and it may actually disappear into the ocean.......prices are reflecting this

"why slander the hand that feeds irwin sioux is the largest most respectable packer in the world." 
I was not slandering, the sale of cheap Chinese honey by Sue,it benefits Sue bee's bottom line, their members and most important their customers,this honey is probably going into their industrial market and giving their competition a good run for their money in this market.This industrial market is a major influence on all prices and sets the price for the packed market and the price you and I will receive for our product. Sue selling,Why not, everybody else is doing it, but it clearly will be "good " Chinese honey. Sue has been assessing the Canadian honey market for whats available for export


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## irwin harlton

(img)http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e365/buzz1356/?action=view&current=peak_honey_chart.png)(img)


world honey supply is on a slippery downward slope

Yes feLLow beekeepers ,we have surpassed Peak HONEY world production,just like peak oil, the only place for prices to go, are up and prices will be better than just good.


Q : What happened to Brazil's honey production as a result of the introduction of killer bees?

Brazil went from fourth in world honey production to twenty-seventh by the early 1990's.


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## jean-marc

We have passed peak honey production, well maybe , maybe not. I'm wondering how Mr or Mrs. Hubbard came up with the graph? At this point I'm not convinced.

Brazil is trying to gear up so is India and a whole bunch of other countries. As prices rise then countries that have a low yearly average all of a sudden see beekeeping as profitable/attractive.

Jean-Marc


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## mike farms

irwin most of the chinese honey in america is used for industrial purposes that why no one really cares too much....are you going to go up against General Mills, Kraft Foods and all the deep pockets that Sioux is selling to. Take all of Suiox honey off the shelfs at your local supermarket and send it to applica gauranteed almost all of it will not pass.....this is the world we live in. Money rules all!


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## irwin harlton

Jean Marc, I hoping the prices coming in the new year will make you a believer......if someone is paying a 1.30 for pepper, what SHOULD white honey be selling for...Not a 1.40, I thinks, but I have to agree higher prices will bring higher production from these countries... and as usual reduced world prices.

In the mean time we gotta play the packers game....... I was just pointing out that world supply has dropped, it is way short of demand in the Peak Honey theory.Dropping or suppressing prices will only lead to a overly higher price down the road.This latest 1.40 price is a ploy to make their next offer look real attractive and they didn't get enought at 1.60 so they use the old we are in control drop the price play.

Not really understanding these new people at Billy Buzz, they definitely don't have the same banker the last owner had, he bought honey in vast quantities and sold it, packed and bulk,all over the world,not just Canada.Beemaid has squeezed them in wally world( rarely on my local shelf) and I wonder where else, their pack is darker than the competitions and suffers granulation problems I hear.New packing plant problems maybe?


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## jean-marc

I'm pretty sure we will bew seeing higher prices in the new year. It's interesting to see the lower prives now. My feeling was many beekeepers had not sold at 1.60, hoping to get more. I don't think they'll be getting much at $1.40.

Has world honey production dropped? I'm not sure. India and brazil are gearing up so is Vietnam. I'm not convinced that the world honey production has peaked. That would mean that world honey production has dropped off in the last few years. Any recent drop off in total world honey production could be explained by odd weather patterns.

At today's honey price I don't too many people will get very excited. I can't really imagine the guy with 1000 hives going to 2000, nor can I foresee someone with 2000 going say to 5000. The prices are too unstable and usually too low from a producres point of view. I can see guys replacing some older stuff but not really gearing up. On the other hand if prices were double what they are today and if producers kinda knew that prices would stay there for 4-5 years then there would be a lot of incentive to produce honey. I can almost guarantee that if those conditions existed than total world honey production would increase. There would be incentive to produce. From where I sit it doesn't seem to exist today.

Jean-Marc


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## knorm

Hey guys - I think this $1.40/# talk is not realistic. I just had offers this week for $1.45 and $1.55 can (delayed payment) for white honey picked up, and the buyers are calling me. I think at least some of the packers are getting short of honey.


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## irwin harlton

The only thing unrealistic was the 1.40 offer to buy, being made at the Alberta beekeepers convention.........funny the price is going up......none or very little was sold at this low end offer, as the offer did not exist for long

Re: Peak honey or is it Peak cheap honey.The latest world honey production figures, that I can find are for 2004


•2004 Honey world production is about 1.3 million tons. Six countries concentrate 50% of the total. In the last decade, there has been a slightly growing tendency. Asia is the main producing continent, followed by Europe and America in the third place.

Continent	% Tons
Africa	11,2
Central America and Carib	1,2
South America	10,0
North America	13,2
Asia	38,3
Europe	23,3
Oceania	2,7


•2004 World exports are around 350 thousand tons. Argentina participates with just over 20% of the total, taking the second place as exporter, after China, and escorted by Mexico, which is in the third place. Argentina competes with China for the price and with Mexico for the quality. .noted that the imported honey coming to Canada and USA comes from a wider range of countries , usually different from year to year

Production has dropped in USA for last 10 years.Argentina's 2008-2009 crop was down 30%. There were droughts in China and Mexico in 2009,dropping production in both countries. World honey production especially if you consider production in the largest honey exporting countries has to be down, but by how much?

A little history from 1997 -98

U.S. honey production in 1998 from producers with five or more colonies totaled 220 million pounds, up 12% from 1997. There were 2.63 million colonies producing honey in 1998, up slightly from 1997. Yield per colony averaged 83.7 pounds, up 9 pounds from the 74.7 pound average for 1997. Prices for the 1998 crop averaged 65.5 cents per pound, down 13% from 75.2 cents in 1997.

Historically, beekeepers have produced honey that was graded and priced at the market. Producers knew the attributes that the grading system used, and provided samples to potential buyers. Basically, producers always had to take the price offered, and most marketing decisions centered on when in a crop production cycle to sell. Supply and demand were seen as driving the prices, and producers recognized that periods of high supply would likely lower prices and low supply would likely raise prices. Moreover, it was assumed that some relationship existed between the price of the commodity and the price the consumer paid at the retail level.

Over the past two decades honey has become a global commodity, and regional or even national supply fluctuations no longer drive the market. In addition, the relationship between the commodity price of honey and the retail price of honey has become very small. In early 1999, the spread between the retail price of honey and the commodity price of honey became historically large. At the same time, the demand for honey in the U.S. market increased. This same paradox has affected many other farm commodities. Some producers have tried to adjust to the market by cutting costs and increasing volume. Another approach to marketing is to seek niche markets. The theory is that one can find attributes for the commodity that will make it specific, and that consumers will pay more for those attributes. For honey these can include creamed honey products, comb honey, marketing honey from specific floral sources, value-added products, and packaging that identifies the product with a specific region.

As honey packers become fewer and larger and honey trade on a global scale increases, regional and national supply and demand may become even less useful in predicting market prices. Producing bulk honey, offering it for sale and accepting the price offered is currently not providing an adequate return to producers. Most beekeepers enjoy working with their bees but do not enjoy marketing. Unfortunately for those beekeepers, all indicators point to creative marketing as the best opportunity to enhance profitability in the new millennium.

I think at today's prices for bulk honey there is a huge difference( 1.50 verses 5.00) between the bulk price and the shelf price ( good opportunity here to pack your own and make good money, IF YOU HAVE THE MARKET) and currently a vary low price paid for industrial or bakery trade honey....this industrial market (SUPPLIED BY LARGE PACKERS) price must rise and lift the bulk white honey price with it


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## suttonbeeman

While I still have honey to pack and sell to my retail customers I sold the last of my honey that I will sell bulk this week. 70 buckets @ 2.25/lb in their bucket.


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## John Smith

Congratulation to you Mr. Suttonbeeman!

If profit is the objective, produce less, retail more!

Cheers,

JohnS


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## irwin harlton

Argentina outlook not good




From http://www.apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm

Google translation( not the best)


Between January and October 2009, local honey exports fell 21%, although the value of products shipped increased 8%, with 45,964 tonnes shipped au $ s 2739 each. Also according to data from Senasa same period in 2008, had dispatched 58,392 tonnes by 2542 u $ s each. 

In fact, the next downhill since 2005, the year the country shipped more volume: 105,940 tons. The following year was 99,208 in 2007 80,437, and last year totaled 69,086 tons. 

According to Sebastian Muñoz, coordinator of the Commission Beekeeping Federation Agraria Argentina, the debacle is influenced by several factors. Is that the drought came in a context of huge decline in yields, because the bee leaves the hand of livestock (bees feed on the flowers in the pastoral livestock Yuyito), but the estate is run every time farther north, displaced by soybean and glyphosate. 

Without pollen, bees produce less honey, which is their food, and supplement required, which reduces quality. "Today the business is not viable: we give up 15 to 20 kilos, and 17 to 18 kilos of cost. Calculate, because there are no official statistics, nearly 7,000 producers of honey (about 20% of those enrolled in the Renap) left activity, and the hives were lost, "said Munoz. 

To make matters worse, for fear of taxation, the vast majority of beekeepers do not enroll in the Renap. Munoz estimated that in total there must be some 90,000 beekeepers in the country (three times the bleached), and this, together with the disappearance of official statistics from the conflict with the field, not aid diagnosis or to the solution. "In Santa Fe when the emergency was declared, appeared to recover from all sides, all had hives," criticized. 

Above, the change of status from the Agriculture Ministry of Secretariat left the sector without partners to discuss the strategic plan, which is financed with 50% of export taxes (5% for honey and 10% for fractional the bulk product, as will the vast majority). "The $ 22 million for the strategic plan are supposedly in the bank, but the field bee is no longer under the Food. The industry is not represented in the Ministry, do not know whom to talk." 

For the specialist, could be generated, for example, a government project to split, thereby increasing value added, and also help the younger ones, who do not have the capital to fill nas move north with the cows. 

(Cuenca Rural)


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## John Smith

My comments on this paragraph in the apitrak report:

“””””””””To make matters worse, for fear of taxation, the vast majority of beekeepers do not enroll in the Renap. Munoz estimated that in total there must be some 90,000 beekeepers in the country (three times the bleached), and this, together with the disappearance of official statistics from the conflict....................”””””””””

Beekeepers and fishermen, belong in the Hunters' and Gatherers' classification, as they are the foundation stones of any economy. Farmers and Graziers are in the next layer of bricks in the edifice known as civilization. Gold miners are in that mortar there somewhere too.

Governments of all eras and persuasions have drawn a line above a certain level of commerce and declared all above that line as taxable, all below that line exempt. For instance, in Australia, babysitting is not considered a taxable income. Neither is gold mining. 

So it isn’t the size of the industry, nor is it the moral or human value of it, it is more about the impossibility of controlling, policing and defining. Some goods and services are just so primary they defy governance. A tax on air, or if you like, an emission trading scheme, may also fit in there somewhere. How do we prove a person actually breathed in and out? And was it as halitosis or flatulence?

If two thirds of Argentina’s beekeepers are below the tax line through whatever contrivance, wouldn’t you think the government there would go ahead and declare the business tax exempt? Perhaps there is some pressure on the industry as a result of the economic turmoil of the past decade in Argentina? Are the beekeepers under pressure to get bleached? And is the government withholding their own statistics in an effort to avoid confronting this issue?

I read that ‘bleached’ word to be a corruption in the translation. Perhaps it should read ‘audited.’ In the Spanish, it might have been sanitised, or cleaned. I think those beekeepers simply have failed to get 'registered.' In Australia we use the term, Seasonally Adjusted. In other words the raw data has been groomed up a bit to simplify it and put the desired spin on the conclusion. But when we know the official data would belie our intended conclusions, we like to use estimates, and expert assessments.

When governments everywhere get serious about promoting any activity like beekeeping, their best move would be to declare it tax exempt. But, no, so far they only want to hand out pallatives at their own discretion. This always fails in the long run, especially with the primary industries, as they are the ones underpinning the whole edifice of society. The fall of the USSR being a current example of this failure. So the more we give the beekeepers in handouts, the more we have to take off them next week to cover the loss in transit of the cash. In other words, the activity is not sustainable. Simply too much cash is lost to ‘administration.’

Charities and tax exempt foundations are required to spend a minimum of 6% of their intake doing the actual job mentioned in their charter. Unfortunately governments are under no such obligation. If governments spent 1% of what they take in looking after the edifice of civilization, especially the very foundation stones, beekeepers and fishermen would be the richest people in the system. 

The cumulative effect of ignoring these issues only creates a bigger correction when it does come. Gold is at the moment highlighting that phenomenon. 

Commercial Fishermen are under enormous pressure now for the simple reason of overpopulation of the human and depletion of the ocean’s fish. A situation like that is not easy to fix. However, honey production in the overall sense has unknown limits, given the correct encouragement. More honey remains in the forest than what is taken out, as all beekeepers understand. It is only the way we manage the issue that limits how much honey we can produce. And the more primal the honey source, the more sustainable it is.

If honey were tax exempt in more ways, especially ones that encouraged big business to participate in the industry, if the general public were encouraged to value honey, and if honey were to be lifted to its rightful level on our priority list, there need never be a shortage again. Unfortunately this easy a result does not exist with ocean fish and fresh water for agriculture. Honey is as transportable as gold is, nearly as time proof, and a hundred times more valuable for food and health, but no, mankind prefer to develop substitutes and imitations, and thereby limits the potential of the entire edifice of civilization. Everything must be cheap. Give us bargains. To hell with tomorrow.

Honey production is tax exempt in China although I do not know just how this is brought about. Oh that Western Cultures were so wise!

However, in the more immediate sense, the longer we postpone a paradigm shift in these attitudes we apply to honey, the stronger will be the wave that ushers it in. That paradigm shift will come about eventually. It could be brought about by a positive move; it could be brought about by a tragedy for our civilization. Only time will tell.

No economic advantage for honey, no pollination. No pollination, no abundance of food. No abundance of food, no big cities. No big cities, no civilization. We will be back to the hunting and gathering stage real quick! Well, the survivors, that is.

Happy Beekeeping!

JohnS


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## Bens-Bees

John Smith said:


> No economic advantage for honey, no pollination. No pollination, no abundance of food. No abundance of food, no big cities. No big cities, no civilization. We will be back to the hunting and gathering stage real quick! Well, the survivors, that is.


Well there is still the economic advantage of pollination contracts. Although honey production has traditionally always been the backbone of beekeeping economics, I think our business is changing to the point that eventually as much as 80% of our revenue might come from pollination.


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## alpha6

As long as the packers keep importing more and more honey and keeping the price low for US honey producers I think the only way commercial guys can cover their costs is through pollination. That is the problem is that the price of honey is kept low by importing cheap, crap honey from who knows where and the packers and those rats at the National Honey Board who are in bed with them don't care if it is tainted honey...it's about money not quality. So until we institute standards throughout the US and really go after those crooks who are selling the swill to the American people I don't see things changing much. 

Ok...rant over.


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## Bens-Bees

We could just adapt to the changing market conditions.


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## 123456789

Pollenation isn't an option here. I went from 1600 hives and depending on whatever the packers would offer me to 500 hives and selling my crop for $2.75 lb (cough, cough, CASH, cough). Lets face it, beekeeping is one of the very few industries where there is little or no effort from the producers to marketing their product. 
Personally, I'm not willing to let the tail wag this dog.


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## Birds&Bees

until we institute standards throughout the US and really go after those crooks who are selling the swill to the American people I don't see things changing much. 

The key word is "we", it certainly won't be government agencies such as the USDA or the FDA, these departments are staffed by former members of the food industries they are supposed to regulate, essentially large food companies can now regulate themselves as they see fit through the veil of government regulatory agencies, giving the consuming population the illusion that the food they are purchasing is safe and healthy. We need to educate the consumers about the food they are buying. The honey market will only change with consumer demand. If they want cheap, they'll get adulterated honey, if they want quality, they'll open their wallets.


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## JohnLaurino

_To Birds&Bees:_ <added by mod>

This is the very TRUE. We know efforts are being made in various fronts, including official ones and this may take years and even so results may be not sufficient nor effective. The key to fight the assembled sweeteners sourcing is to include the quality of the honeys in the public agenda.

this needs to be done very carefully otherwise it may damage the whole industry , bad and good companies. #challenge.


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## irwin harlton

Not only does the ACTUAL shear volume of this swill kick down and hold back the price of good honey ,I think some buyers are stating there is a lot more swill around then there actually is, ..............funny how the price is stagnated and not much difference between all those packers......but then the import figures for rice syrup ,ultra filtered,packers blend swill do not match what is reportedly being told to us to exist in warehouses, perhaps a new circumvention is being used and hasn't surfaced yet.....this I doubt.

Canadian honey imports for 2009 are up 26.3% over 2008 up till Oct 1,2009, a total of 
$14,561,583 ,VALUED IN CANADIAN DOLLARS,from a total of 53 different countries.

Don't know what that dollar figure would be in lbs but it would be in excess of 10M lbs,if average price was 1.40	/lb... somewhere around 1/5 up to 1/4 of Canadian production for 09.I am sure a lot of the imports are less than 1.40/lb so the poundage goes up accordingly

Stats available at http://www.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrkti/tdst/t...dfoot&productType=HS6&cacheTime=962115865#tag

keyword search or code is 0409 honey natural

Because Canada is A NET EXPORTER OF HONEY( we produce more than we consume) FOR EVERY LB WE IMPORT WE MUST EXPORT THAT MUCH MORE


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## Wee3Bees Apiary

We have talked and talked and talked (or written and written and written) about why honey prices should be higher and that they ought to go higher in 2010. The market is set by the packers. :scratch:

Let's just revolt and 1) not sell any honey until the packers beg us to buy it from us at $3 a pound (okay, I couldn't hold on to my honey without selling it either; I'm not wealthy or a bank), or 2) spread propaganda around that says so and so just sold his/her honey for $2.25 a pound and the packer was willing to go as high as $2.50+ in the next 3 months... 

Maybe if we start brainwashing people into thinking that prices are $2.50 per pound in the drum, then they will start believing it (perception is reality). 

Or, I just thought of a number 3) producers can collectively hire a hypnotist (sp?) to go around North America hypnotizing all of the packers to start buying honey at $2.50 per pound for resale...then $2.75, then $3.00 per pound, etc. :lpf:

Then we can all chip in and buy an island, like, say, Australia and enjoy retirement!


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## Skinner Apiaries

Could just form an "american" honey coop, and smear out sue. I mean... Americans WILL pay premium for American product. Too bad most of my honey goes to latinos and arabs. haha


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## DigitalBishop

Skinner Apiaries said:


> Could just form an "american" honey coop, and smear out sue.


That's the best idea I've heard yet. Refuse to sell to sue. They'll have to import more cheap, crap foreign honey. Sue shrugs it off until they're not selling honey because the word is out that they're selling crap (not that the average American knows what quality honey is until they're re educated about it, easier said than done) or the world supply is in a dearth and they're forced to come to terms.

Didn't I read that Sue Bee started out as a coop? If so, then isn't it supposed to benefit its members so that they could make a living? Apparently they've wandered away from that if they're still considered a "coop".

Re education takes marketing and money. Something that everyone has been crying is in short supply. The marketing that the AHB has been doing? Zilch, I've seen no comercials or attempt of any kind to promote American honey. If they do any at all, it's to no benefit of any honey producers. It's all done for the biggest packagers.

So what if producers do form a coop to go against Sue Bee and other packagers. What kind of response could we expect?


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## JohnK and Sheri

Please try to keep your posts to the point of the world honey market and prices.
Thanks,
Sheri


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## irwin harlton

Mid US honey hot line 763 658 4193

Report dated Nov. 15, states honey moving at1.50, 1.52 and 1.55.......9 loads sold from S.D.
"white honey is in short supply"
Canadian producer in eastern Canada offered 2.10 (no volume mentioned)

Hardly what I would call "short supply prices", non the less the trend is upwards.


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## Trevor Mansell

I just sold a load of Brazilian Pepper ELA for $1.30. And I was happy to get it.


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## Beeslave

Mid US honey hot line 763 658 4193

Dated Dec. 6th. 2 loads out of Oregon for $1.75 lbs. 1 of those loads went to Canada. It doesn't say if seller or buyer was paying for transportation. I think we will see in Jan./Feb. how high it will go.


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## jean-marc

Now isn't that interesting. Wonder why someone would buy honey from Oregon destined for Canada when there is honey left in the country?

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

http://www.apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm Ron Phipps latest report december 09 
just a short part here

When a study is made of the dramatic changes in export patterns over the past 7 years, and of the productive capacities of newly emerging honey exporting countries, stark aberrations appear. We can compare U.S. imports in 2009, 2008 and 2001 from several countries as follows:
Country 2001 2008 2009 (9 months)
(million pounds)
India -0- 27.8 23.2
Malaysia -0- 9. 12.
Indonesia -0- 4. 8.7
Taiwan -0- 3.2 8.2
Thailand 2.7 2. 3.
China 41.4 24.7 0.1
Source: National Honey Report
The changes are not merely quantitative but qualitative. For example, some tropical countries are exporting vast amounts of “white honey,” which is very difficult to find in the latitudes where the countries of origin are located, barring some botanical “miracle.” We note that in 2009, 100% of the honey imported from Indonesia is white and 42% of honey from India is white. Import values indicate prices much lower than white honey from Canada, the United States and Argentina. Published reports from Indonesia indicate that consumption of honey in Indonesia exceeds its production, which provides only 30% of its needs. Similar reports exist from Malaysia and Mongolia.
The phenomenon of blending or falsely labeling products is contributing to the confusion. Numerous trade samples have been evaluated and found to be either blended from several origins or ultra-filtered honey, which the FDA holds to be illegal to sell as honey. It is clear to all members of the honey industry that many emerging honey exporting countries do not have the technical capacity to ultrafilter honey, nor any economic reason to suffer the expense, even if they have the capacity. And yet huge amounts of this product are being offered to U.S. buyers.
It is interesting to note that the price of Chinese white honey imported into the United States in 2008 averaged $0.22/lb. (less than $485/MT), according to the National Honey Report. Canadian white honey imports during the same period averaged $1.41/lb. Chinese honey prices reported to Customs in 2008, were 30% lower compared to 2001, when the antidumping case was effected. The unbelievably low valuations, no less the subsequent transshipments, have taken the sting out of the antidumping rulings of the
6
U.S. Department of Commerce. Chinese honey imports decreased dramatically from 25,000,000 pounds in 2008 to zero in 2009.
It would appear that the availability of extremely cheap Chinese honey worldwide has contributed to the 2-tiered price structure for honey which has persisted and increased throughout 2008-2009 in the United States, and that honey laundering continues unabated until today. This phenomenon has aroused concern among American beekeepers and American honey packers throughout the country North to South, East to West and all regions in between. If honest members of the industry are to be left standing, a timely and comprehensive solution to honey laundering is imperative.
During the period March-August, 2009, domestic and imported honey transactions were 29% and 71%, respectively, according to the NHB. The consumers clearly need imported honey to complement domestic production. But the industry


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## The Honey Householder

jean-marc said:


> Now isn't that interesting. Wonder why someone would buy honey from Oregon destined for Canada when there is honey left in the country?
> 
> Jean-Marc


Hey, Look even the Canadain like cheap US honey!!!!! 
There is still those beekeeper that have to sell off the're crop to pay back the banks loans each year you know.


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## irwin harlton

Now isn't that interesting. Wonder why someone would buy honey from Oregon destined for Canada when there is honey left in the country?

Jean-Marc
Reply With Quote

Hey, Look even the Canadian like cheap US honey!!!!! lol Packers are the same on both sides of that border

Strange things happen in this bee buissness, and even stranger things in the honey industry.
Maybe this could be explained by no honey was available in Canada at or below this price...........or some nice packer needed some really good fireweed to blend with some swill
Imports from USA are up over 2008 but I think they are packed honey and or bakery industrial semi loads going to specialty markets.( no doubt at ultra cheap prices)


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## jean-marc

If I were buying honey at $1.75/lb US and if I had to pay freight, I would not be calling it cheap. I'm not sure what the exchange rate is on the dollar but say there is another 10 cents maybe even 15 cents more, then we are looking at $1.85-$1.90 Cdn. The freight 's the tricky part because if it's FOB, I think there is still plenty of honey around that would go at that price. 

If it was a high quality fireweed honey then I would not grumble about the price. I don't know of anybody around here who got any, so $1.75 US is Ok. I for sure would not blend it with any other honey though. For those who don't know fireweed is a very white honey that is extremely slow to granulate. The flavour is mild. It is quite popular in these parts of the world but because of different logging practices it's a little harder to get nowadays.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

I know of buckwheat honey selling in Manitoba for 2.40/lb, in small lots, to small packers
The price of 1.90Cad, plus freight for one semi load of fireweed sounds kinda low, depending on alot of factors.....probably more buckwheat around than fireweed? These are rare and specialty honey's commanding premium prices......I think all real honey is special and should be selling at more than what is being currently offered


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## irwin harlton

http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ Google translation ( not great)

Rains in Argentina are providing beekeepers with potential of a much better crop, than what last years crop was.

But you can't count nothing till it's in the drum.......even then the exchange rate of honey to money is quite often not that good......but I hear it is getting better on the US side of the border


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## JohnLaurino

It is certain the world will have a better crop not only in Argentina but in various other important honey production countries, including Brazil. This combined to the still unstable economy recovering (credit shortage) plus the continuing flow of adulterated/circumvented honey which is destroying the legit industrial honey field in US (also in place in UK , France, Spain, The Netherlands, etc) will drive prices down, except for the white color honeys.

India offers legit LA @ USD 1.08/lb delivered to American ports. Argentina offers LA combined to ELA @ average USD 1.25/lb FOB and buyers both in Europe and USA are not paying too much attention to it. I am selling from brazil LA @ USD 1.13/lb FOB and ELA @ 1.21/lb. 

I dont think this is good news for most of you but it is what will happen according to my crystal ball which has been more right than wrong in the past 10 years. :lookout:


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## irwin harlton

Reading from American Bee Journal, dec 09 issue, pages 1127, 1128, "honey prices"

"In real terms,it can be seen that honey prices have declined overtime at a rate of about one cent per year" .......So shouldn't the price be for white honey over 2.00 /lb USA ?


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## irwin harlton

John Laurino your crystal ball may be a little cloudy

taken from http://www.honey.com/honeyindustry/ 

XXIX - #11 Issued Monthly December 15, 2009
HONEY MARKET FOR THE MONTH OF November, 2009
IN VOLUMES OF 10,000 POUNDS OR GREATER UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED
Prices paid to beekeepers for extracted, unprocessed honey in major producing states by packers, handlers & other large users, cents
per pound, f.o.b. or delivered nearby, containers exchanged or returned, prompt delivery & payment unless otherwise stated.
- REPORT INCLUDES BOTH NEW AND OLD CROP HONEY -
(# Some in Small Lot --- +Some delayed payments or previous commitment)


Prices paid to Canadian Beekeepers for unprocessed, bulk honey by packers and
importers in U. S. currency, f.o.b. shipping point, containers included unless
otherwise stated. Duty and crossing charges extra. Cents per pound.
Province Not Reported –
Too Few to Report
Prices paid to importers for bulk honey, duty paid, containers included, cents per
pound, ex-dock or point of entry unless otherwise stated.
Argentina
Mixed Flowers white $1.49
Mixed Flowers extra light amber $1.36 - $1.49
Brazil
Mixed Flowers extra light amber $1.34
Mixed Flower light amber $1.16 - $1.22
Vietnam
Mixed Flowers light amber $1.12 - $1.14

Also at http://www.apitrack.com/noticias/aaacotizacionmiel_es_open.htm

shows current prices paid per kilogram to Argentina keepers for extra white honey for export
I see no downward trend in any prices of any honey


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## wildbranch2007

according to the financial network yesterday(one analyst) the price of sugar will double in 2010. also china has allready released large amounts of sugar from reserves. brazil and india will have smaller crops this year. this will definitely impact your inputs if you feed sucros, what will it do to the honey prices??

mike syracuse


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## irwin harlton

National Honey Board has revamped its Web site, http://www.honey.com/

Quotation marks are taken from the board minutes of April 23, 24, 2009

"consumer-friendly navigation, and the need to beautify the Web site. She noted that
industry materials and information will stay on the Web site, but with less emphasis."

They only meet 2-3 times a year and then they approve the minutes of the last meeting hence we are in big time lag.

Seems they also dropped some interesting stats on honey imports, ie: four largest importing countries and average price paid to those importing countries............oh well it has been maybe decided by the Board that it is best we don't know this?

"both import and domestic assessments, as both are substantially
down for the first quarter. There was extensive discussion about the issue."

Definitely a shortage of honey........dropped 0.3M from the proposed budget

"By several measures, AC Nielsen and the PTS, retail sales of honey increased in 2008."

I would be more interested in 2009 sales , are they up, down or stagnant



"Moved by Charles Kocot, seconded by George Hansen and carried to change Strategy
1.4.1 to read "Support industry efforts to maintain honey purity,” and Strategy 1.4.2 to
read “Support industry testing methodologies to improve quality assurance as needed""


Don't worry about purity anymore, we packers will just test to assure quality as needed


You can address any concerns you have about the Web site to Andrea Brening 
| [email protected] | (303)776-2337


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## suttonbeeman

I am wondering if anyone has read the latest issue of the ABF newletter. According to it(and what I've been told by those who know)a major packer with a good reputation(I question this at least in my opinion) and well known name was(is) importing honey from china labeled as less than 50% honey for bee feed. According to the article evidentually less than pure honey went in the in door and us grade a honey came out the out door. This is going to play out shortly accordingly and I expect a few hot beekeepers, some could loose alot equity if the Govt really puts down the hammer. This has allowed them to circumvent the tariffs and honey board fee which is more than a few pennies. MIght be time to form a new coop!


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## The Honey Householder

The way the market is going, I think the beekeeper are better off with out the coops. Maybe this was an off year for the small beekeeper. I wholesale all my tonage to the smaller beekeepers that are tell me there sales are up 20% this year. I'm sorry if the beekeeper can retail all their honey locally for a good price why wouldn't they. 
As you can see the big packers don't need our honey. The people are getting educated slowly about what they are really buying in the stores. 

IF YOU WANT REAL HONEY, BUY IT FROM A BEEKEEPER.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Thanks to all those beekeeper that sell my local honey!!!!!

Wish you all a Marry Christimas!!!!:banana:opcorn:


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## Bens-Bees

The Honey Householder said:


> I wholesale all my tonage to the smaller beekeepers that are tell me there sales are up 20% this year. I'm sorry if the beekeeper can retail all their honey locally for a good price why wouldn't they.


This is just my opinion, and as such it is likely wrong; but in my opinion, if someone is retailing their honey, and they sell out prior to the next extraction, they are undercharging for their honey.


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## suttonbeeman

Ron I wasnt serious about a new coop....was throwing some rocks! Sgt Alot of beeks didnt have a crop at all...bad year. DIdnt have any to sell at any price. Plus you can build a good market faster than you can increase bees even if you are selling at 15-20/qt if you are in the right area.


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## Bens-Bees

Yes, and getting surprised by higher demand than you guessed is one thing, going back and selling again in the same market at the same price the following week/month/year is another thing.


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## John Smith

Funnily enough, most supermarket and big brand name packers tell us honey is hard to sell. Is there a chance these people really don't want to sell honey? If anyone knows of marketing campaigns anywhere in the world, could we have a report on it?

The higher people climb the ladder in all organisations, the more they seem to be against honey, and this includes honey co-ops. And as far as getting the price up to a level that stimulates production, the beekeepers are the ONLY class of people who want that, and it would appear even some of them don't.

Real people buy real honey. More and more of them are attempting to source it direct from the beekeeper too. They don't seem to mind paying more for it either, and why should they? If they want real honey make them pay real prices. 

If beekeepers want to survive, they have to go around the system and serve their customers directly. The system people PREFER to sell substitutes, as they are far more profitable.

Cheers,
JohnS


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## 123456789

Overestimating the importance of honey will just contribute to the boom and bust cycle. I have a friend that manages a large national grocery store. Honey is on the shelf for 12.50 a kilo. Sales are down 80%. He told me matter of factly that customers won't pay that for honey. Multiply that by the 1,000's of grocery stores in Canada alone.

Of course as we all know, (and certainly have seen in the recent past), this will lead to packers offering .80 in a year or so.

Sure, there are people that will pay 12.50 kg for honey. Unfortunately you run out of those customers in a hurry.

As beekeepers we somtimes can't see the forrest for the trees. If honey is demed too expensive by the consumers, they'll live quite fine without it.

123'six months til the new crop'456


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## The Honey Householder

SgtMaj said:


> This is just my opinion, and as such it is likely wrong; but in my opinion, if someone is retailing their honey, and they sell out prior to the next extraction, they are undercharging for their honey.


As a comm. honey producer, my problem is always under selling. Everyone wants there money back at the end of the season. It's worst then playing the stock market. When is a good time to sell? I sold a load last Feb. for $1.29 a lb. The price at harvest time this years was $1.65-$1.70. Finished extracting on Sept. 15, and was sold out around the first of Oct. In 30 years of business I have never sold honey that fast. Since then I've had big packer that nornally buy from me calling. I haven't told them I was sold out, just keep dragging them along. They just keep quoting prices, and I just keep telling them to low. I would like them to know how it feels to be on the other side of things.:no: The beekeepers pulled though for me this year, and that I am thankful for.

Happy Halidays to all!!!!:banana::banana:


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## Ian

>>Sales are down 80%. He told me matter of factly that customers won't pay that for honey. 

I hear the opposite,

>>Of course as we all know, (and certainly have seen in the recent past), this will lead to packers offering .80 in a year or so.

Ya, but the other bigger factor is honey coming out of the southern hemisphere.
Packers are still paying 1.5$ cnd for the honey, the ones buying right now anyway.
Time will tell what we will see in prices for 2010. 

with the market now, little snips of news moves the market
with the market now, solid factual production reports will swing the market 
time will tell


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## Beeslave

A WI packer only offering $1.44 lb. for ELA(10 drum load). I deliver. I have been getting $1.60 lb to $1.70 lb(depending on color) on 1-5 drum lots picked up.


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## 123456789

Packers aren't offering much because a high shelf price is killing their retail sales. When honey becomes a luxury as opposed to a staple we all feel the effects.

Beeslave, networking is the way to go. Beeks that need honey to keep their customers happy gladly pay 20-40 cents a pound more for the convenience of not having to buy a truckload.


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## suttonbeeman

I dont think the store shelf price is killing their sales as much as the crappy tasting liquid they call honey some are putting in a jar! Prices on the shelf are not too high ether in Ky of Fl. 1# jar at wally world around 3-3.79 dollars. I went in WalMart in Fl two weeks ago and there was NO i repeat NO honey on the shelf, totally empty. I asked the cashier and manager and both said it was selling like crazy..coming thru register constantly! couldnt keep it on the shelf. I told them they need to be selling my honey and they would sell even more!


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## deknow

suttonbeeman said:


> I dont think the store shelf price is killing their sales as much as the crappy tasting liquid they call honey some are putting in a jar!


ding ding ding....we have a winner!

we have the NHB telling customers that all honey is the same, and the NHB is run by those who benefit from buying the worst honey possible at the lowest prices, and is hurt by superior honey selling for premium prices directly from the beekeeper to the consumer. do you want to support the NHB? do they support you (no, they use the cheap supply of inferiour imported honey to lower the price they will pay you).

so, is your honey the same as some of the crappy supermarket product? should you be competing in the same market with that stuff? is the NHB working in your interests?

what we need to work against is the idea that honey is a commodity like refined sugar. good honey is special, and will only be treated that way by the customer if it is treated that way by the producer.

deknow


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## sqkcrk

deknow said:


> what we need to work against is the idea that honey is a commodity like refined sugar. good honey is special, and will only be treated that way by the customer if it is treated that way by the producer.
> 
> deknow


Right you are deknow, but I sure hope all the beekeepers that I know don't take to bottling and selling honey, or I won't be able to make the meager income that I do. There will be too much competition.


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## deknow

well there is a two sided coin here. part of the problem is first convincing a potential customer that what they think of as honey is not "good" honey.

at least in our neck of the woods, the county fair honey competitions are all about looks. the judges will give all honey the same score for taste (unless there is a noticeable off flavor), leaving crystailization, bubbles in the glass, and fill level as the major critera that people are competing over....with different classes for different sized jars and colors of honey.

imho, this is just plain stupid. it furthers the agenda of "all honey is the same", which is exactly what local beekeepers who compete in these things should be working against!

if more of the large commercial beekeepers did bottle and market their own honey, they would be more concerned about quality and taste rather than color...or at least their bottom line would reflect their concern.

once people start to realize what good honey tastes like, the bar gets raised, and better honey is available, the demand grows, and the price goes up.

fwiw, this isn't just some abstract economic theory, it is how we run our business, and it works. we only sell honey that is produced without treatments and without artificial feeds, and we get a lot of interest in our "story"...but what sells the honey is the taste.

deknow


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## Barry

deknow said:


> once people start to realize what good honey tastes like, the bar gets raised, and better honey is available, the demand grows, and the price goes up.


This is exactly the same as beer. Unique brews from all over the world demand a price that is usually 2, 3, even 4 times the price of the average beer (Miller Lite, etc.) sold here in the States. There is no comparison in taste, which is a reflection in quality, care, and unique elements of any given location that the beer comes from. I agree, local honey needs to be elevated to the place it deserves to be.


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## Ian

>>Packers aren't offering much because a high shelf price is killing their retail sales. When honey becomes a luxury as opposed to a staple we all feel the effects.

You may be right, as your friend suggest. He sell the honey retail, so his perspective is relevant.
The perspective from a packer I deal with is not as gloomy with their sales. In fact they are the same if not up from last year, as far as I would understand. 
For argument sake, they definitely dont have a reduction in sales by 80%.
Their tone towards the price of honey wholesale is movement is slow, but still trading.
One particular substantial trade was above 1.5$/lbs wholesale.
Their look on the honey market place is bullish, basically because of poor north American crops and small inventories in South America, but the watch is on the upcoming south American crop, their production WILL influence the market one way or the other.

My hedge would be take the 1.5$ now.
Historically this is a good price.
you will have next years crop to deal on if the prices rocket , and if the prices plummet, you will have already taken the good price when was there,


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## Ian

I hear what your saying John,

I know you already realize the commodity of honey is also just that, a commodity, 
one way to market that commodity is to value add,
the other way is to market it though packers who add the value,
your not going to get away from the overwhelming fact that the value of the packer is crucial to the honey industry.
we as beekeepers cant possibly manage the packing capacity that is needed to market the overwhelming crop we produce. That's why we sign up contracts with packers to provide the service for us.
And because we trade internationally, we will aways have the influence of foreign honey, and world honey trade. It is a commodity.

I strongly agree with statement on the whole adulterated honey situation and honey substitutes. But not all foreign honey is adulterated.
We have to realize that


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## 123456789

I'm a better marketer than beekeeper , and that is because of dealing dirctly with the end consumer for 30+ years. Of course we all take pride in producing a quality product. But quality is a very subjective term.

I had a lot of treefoil honey this year. I mean I was filling barrel after barrel with yellow honey. One custome told me it was the best honey I've had in 5 years. Couple of hours later, another customer said the honey wasn't as good as last years. So I guess I'm not sure if I produced a quality honey or not this year :scratch:.

Sadly, most customers are not honey coniseurs. If it's not foul tasting, then it's fine honey.


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## sqkcrk

123456 said:


> I hafta disagree.
> If my honey is 'the best' with a blue ribbon from some county fair to prove it, how do I buy 20 barrels from a neighbouring beek to meet my demand? Do I tell my customers that it is inferior honey to mine?
> 
> There's a big difference between honey promotion and self promotion.


I don't have award winning honey. And yet I know how good it is because my customers tell me that it is the best honey that they have ever tasted. That is part of the reward of selling all of my honey in jars instead of barrels.

I don't sell honey, I sell Squeak Creek Honey.

Do what you do best and what you enjoy doing the most. If you enjoy keeping bees and producing honey more than you enjoy marketing honey then sell your honey to someone who enjoys selling honey and is good at it.


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## Wee3Bees Apiary

What's the latest price for light amber and white? Keep in mind, I'm not looking to sell my excess honey as my retail business is growing (at much higher prices than $1.40 per pound), but I do have some extra between now and the summer.

I had an offer today for 5 barrels at $1.40 for light amber from a small commercial beekeeper looking to help out some of his customers that were out of honey. My impression is that $1.40 is low since they are the ones that don't have any honey left. I'm expanding my outfit from internal splits, etc. this year and it will cause me to produce less than I would like.

If I sell them 4 or 5 barrels, then I'm concerned that I'll be short this time next year with my customers. So the question is what is the current price (picked up at my dock not shipped)? Since, they called me I would expect to be paid around $1.50 to $1.60 Light amber. 

Also, I guess that I could provide the honey now with the understanding that it is to be replaced during this spring's harvest from the commercial beekeeper's operation (I'm a sideliner) so I don't go short in the future... you know, good will, etc.

Any thoughts?


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## Beeslave

I spoke with 5 packers in and near WI this last week. 3 wanted honey and were offering $1.42(30 days)-$1.48(90 days) per lb for ELA and $1.38 per lb and up for LA. They would supply shipping.


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## John Smith

Wee3Bees, forget the goodwill. There is about as much honesty in the honey business as there is in gold bullion. Go for the 1.60 or no sale. It won't rot! When you run out there are plenty of them out there waiting to supply your customers, and when the producers are out of honey, there is little hope that anyone else will have an spare! And yes, if you ring them they will add on fifty cents. So if they ring you, add on fifty cents. It really is simple arithmetic, aye?

Your provisioning for your own faithful customers will pay off in the long run. A year is a long time, and a year without a crop is an eternity.

Cheers and good luck. If the first buyer doesn't want to buy it, the last one will!

JohnS


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## JohnLaurino

In 2009 Brazil exported 26,000 tons of honey, app 65% to USA. Average price for US was $ 1.16/lb FOB US ports. This includes both conventional and organic honeys of all colors. In 2010 Brazil may continued to present a growth in the produced and exported volumes so sales to USA may be at least 19,000 tons.


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## JohnK and Sheri

John, could you provide a percentage breakdown on color profiles coming out of Brazil, ie how much white, amber etc??
Thanks,
Sheri


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## JohnLaurino

You ca get color volumes @ http://www.fas.usda.gov/gats/ExpressQuery1.aspx by selecting the HS code group 0409


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## suttonbeeman

Look like the price of honey has dropped since first of Yr. Pepper now being quoted in Fl at 1.15 down from 1.30. I was told at ABF meeting that a HUGE amount of CRAP honey had came in and pushed down price. Seems from what I've been told only two of the large Packers are not packing this crap(chinese honey that may or may not be pure but is labeled at less than 49 % honey and avoids tariffs ect and is coming in at under .35/lb declared value) Also from my information from a reliable source is that the packer who in the media has been referred to as bringing in less than 49% honey labeled as bee feed in the back door and pure honey going out the front door just happens to be beekeeper owned! GREED!!! One of the most respected packers when it comes to pure honey told me that a few years ago McDonalds wanted US light amber honey, then were they allowed to use light amber but no chinese and the latest deal from what I was told is that as long as its says honey on the cover and is light amber thats all that matters! So I guess alot of kids will hate honey when they taste that crap. BUT McDonalds cuts cost, packer makes a profit and comsumer/beekeeper suffer. The mind set of big chains now is to totally disregard quality of the product, buy it as cheap as you can regardless if it has something in it or how bad it taste and make your profit. Big business and greed are what has got this country and beeks in this financial mess! GREED GREED!!


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## Joel

Of course we all knew this was going happen. I was ready to give up driving 500 miles a week to sell honey, be home on the weekends, increase hives and sell more wholesale. 

Is it safe (not that safe is the best choice of words maybe) to assume the chinese honey is ending up in the food industry aspect where the taste and quality is hidden or is there a sense this getting sold directly to consumers for table use? The food industry must do testing and know this stuff is coming in under the wire right?


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## Roland

Joel, I have good reason to believe that some of the trans-shipped "honey" is going directly to the grocery store in jars, blended with other honey, or not. I believe it is Mt Sutton(correct me if I am wrong) that agrees with me, that the first step of marketing is to re-educate the new generation as to what REAL honey tastes like. Some days I feel like a drug pusher. Most of the time , once they buy the first jar. they are hooked. 

I do not see the trans-shipped "honey" as competition. I will not try to compete with it. Rather, I try to show the consumer what they have been missing for so long. 

Roland


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## John Smith

No, Roland, you are not off topic. You are spot on. 

Maybe it is the beekeepers who need to understand that they are selling real honey at imitation maple syrup prices! 

The Kiwis quit letting the big buyers bad mouth their Manuka honey, started creating their own market for it, and now they get big dollars for it. The same goes for the Tasmanian Leatherwood honey. I don't doubt it applies to myriad other honey types worldwide, especially the Sidr honey from Yemen. 

The big honey packers will not promote your honey. Why would they want to waste money promoting a product they are having enough trouble keeping up with as it is? 
Then when push comes to shove, they will sacrifice each of us for the sake of their own neck every time. If it takes dilution, they will dilute. If it takes turning a blind eye, they will turn a blind eye. 

Honey is on the shelf in my supermarket marked, 'Contains imported and Australian product.' No percentages, mind you. For all one would know there might be as little as ten percent of real honey in that bottle. 
Cheers and happy wholesaling!
JohnS


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## sqkcrk

wolfpenfarm said:


> When i start selling, i'm going to put on the label 100% Pure honey no corn syrup added.


May I recommend that you just leave it at 100% Pure Honey? That says what it is. Any mention of "no corn syrup added" would just throw some folks off.


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## sqkcrk

Roland said:


> Joel, I have good reason to believe that some of the trans-shipped "honey" is going directly to the grocery store in jars,
> Roland


Jack from Mann Lake said that a couple of years ago. It costs the same to send a container of empty jars to America as it does to send a container of full jars. Do the math.


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## deknow

i can't read "no corn syrup added" and not think of the NHB's recent propaganda.

is that "no corn syrup is present in the honey" or "no corn syrup added to the honey after extraction"?

deknow


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## Joel

I like your upbeat attitude Roland and for me, Mark who I know and consider a friend and many others who sell direct I guess we have to look at this as an opportunity. It's hard to think about how many people must try this ultra filtered low grade "sweetner" and see honey on the label and it's the last jar of honey they'll buy. That's what burns me. I bought a jar in China Town just to see what it was a year or so ago. Thin, tasteless, nothing that even hinted honey to me. Threw the rest away. Of course we all have those customers who say tney don't like honey, get a taste of the real stuff and become addicted. Word of mouth there is our best ally.

Bad enough still this stuff goes into our beer and our honey cerals though, I thought of it out there on the shelf ruining the good name of real honey. I guess it truly is a world economy and may the "Best" product win.


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## deknow

i'm really happy to see this discussion. in addition to the chinese imports, there is of course _some_ domestic "honey" that is basically hfcs feed run through the bees and extracted.

seems to me that beekeepers that focus on producing quality honey are in a bind. the NHB wants the consumer to see all honey as the same (their contention that honey from the farmers market is exactly the same as honey from the super market), producers and importers of low quality honey want all honey seen as the same.

who's interests are served when beekeepers DON'T educate their customers (and the public at large) about such issues? perhaps this is a worthwhile campaign for local bee clubs?

one thing is for certain, producers of a quality product must go against the NHB and differentiate their product from the bad stuff. this cannot be done without badmouthing _some part_ of the beekeeping industry.

deknow


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## suttonbeeman

Roland there is a packer up in your neckof the woods that I hear is using trans shipped honey adn some are putting rice sugar in it....not a good test for it, so thats something new! You are right we have to educate our customers, however the dad thing some people never get to talk to a beek and kids that eat this crap will not know what "GOOD" honey taste like and may never eat honey again.


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## StevenG

It all comes down to marketing, doesn't it? How we present our product, how we provide information to educate people who might buy our product. Plus samples... label comparison with what we sell compared to the Big Boxes... Most folks don't read the labels, until it's pointed out to them. Doesn't seem like honey will sell itself any more, we have to make the case for it, for OUR pure product.


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## sqkcrk

Joel said:


> Bad enough still this stuff goes into our beer and our honey cerals though, I thought of it out there on the shelf ruining the good name of real honey. I guess it truly is a world economy and may the "Best" product win.


Saw a Food Network Show on honey in food. Why aren't most products that use honey labeled "Corn Syrup Cheerios"? All of the items that they showed being made w/ honey had 50 to 100 times more HFCS than honey. The up side is that HONEY is in the publics eye where it wasn't in the past. Which is sorta free advertising for us.


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## Ian

Just wondering , how exactly is honey suppose to taste?
I produce some of the mildest honey on the planet, I have many buyers
I also produce amber honey, and sell onto the market,
I also produce dark honey, and sell onto the market,
I also produce buckwheat honey and sell onto the market,

So tell me, how exactly am I to move all my honey produced if the consumer expected all my produce to taste as the mild honey?

All I am saying, there is a reason why we blend honey. They blend it lighter, and they blend it darker. Its all marketed by scale,


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## sqkcrk

" seems to me that beekeepers that focus on producing quality honey are in a bind. the NHB wants the consumer to see all honey as the same (their contention that honey from the farmers market is exactly the same as honey from the super market), producers and importers of low quality honey want all honey seen as the same.

who's interests are served when beekeepers DON'T educate their customers (and the public at large) about such issues? perhaps this is a worthwhile campaign for local bee clubs?

one thing is for certain, producers of a quality product must go against the NHB and differentiate their product from the bad stuff. this cannot be done without badmouthing _some part_ of the beekeeping industry."

I'm not in a bind. I sell a good quality product. People who buy it tell me so. I don't try to educate them about "the bad stuff", unless they bring the subject up to me. 

I don't have anything to do w/ the NHB, except to use the literature that I have left. I don't have to differentiate my honey from the bad stuff and I don't have to badmouth anyone else, competator or not.

Squeak Creek Honey speaks for itself and so should yours. Sell your honey.


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## Roland

Ian - with all respect, you have illuminated my exact point. I purposely show my customer that this honey, what ever it is, is unique, and will not taste exactly like any other honey. Similiar maybe, but not exact. Culture their tastes. Had some Wild Cherry Tree honey this spring. I had never tasted anything like it. I sold it on how unique it was, and found several people that liked it best. 

There is a parrellel(sp?) in wines. Do you want to sell a "jug wine" that always tastes the same, or a varietal that reflects the local variations in flora and climate? Anybody can blend to create a bland product, but only you can provide a local product with distinction.

Roland


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## sqkcrk

Roland, your post is exactly what Kim Flottum spoke about at the ABF con. His point was "Call it what it is." Make it unique and attractive to your customer so they will come back to you for that honey. Also date it. Such as "Squeak Creek 2010 Buck's Bridge Bamboo". Sell honey like wine is sold and at a similar price.

Good on ya Roland.


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## 123456789

Wine is enjoyed for it's stand alone taste. Honey is primarily used in conjunction with other foods, thus altering it's flavour somewhat. I don't see any comparison at all.

Instead of 'educating' customers, try listening to what they want.


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## JohnK and Sheri

123456 said:


> Instead of 'educating' customers, try listening to what they want.


There doesn't have to be a choice between education and listening to what they want. 
I usually have several different varieties for tasting, and since it is not the generic honey they might be used to from the grocery store, I encourage them to sample each one. The customers LOVE this. 
Many customers, once they realize there ARE differences, buy several different "flavors". Additionally I now have customers asking for a particular variety every year.
Sheri


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## sqkcrk

123456 said:


> Wine is enjoyed for it's stand alone taste. Honey is primarily used in conjunction with other foods, thus altering it's flavour somewhat. I don't see any comparison at all.
> 
> Instead of 'educating' customers, try listening to what they want.


One can develope and expose to customers food pairings. Which honey goes well w/ which food or in which food. Such as a product that I saw at the ABF conference. "Cheese Honey", this honey goes well w/ cheese. Other examples would be perhaps Honey X goes well in your tea, honey Y goes well in bread baking, honey Z is a good honey to use in BBQ sauce, etc.

Sure, listen to what they want. But if they don't have an idea that you could do something w/out someone suggesting it, shouldn't you make the suggestion? It couldn't hurt.

Sell your honey. Tell people that it is good. Tell them what it is good for and with.

For those of us who bottle and sell honey to stores or where ever, how many of you sell a sample pack, a set of small bottles of different kinds of honey? I'm thinking about doing this. I bet it would sell well at Xmas time.

Have you ever thought about marketing honey at each holiday season? Valentines day Honeys for your Honey? Just thinking out loud. Sorry.


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## Ian

>>Ian - with all respect, you have illuminated my exact point. I purposely show my customer that this honey, what ever it is, is unique

I agree, I sell alot of honey house honey for the exact same reasons that have been stated here,
but I sell alot of the milder honey, no sunflower honey and some buckwheat honey.

As a commercial beekeepers point of view, we have to be extremely hard how critical we are of the packing industry. Set side the debate of foreign adulterated/strained/diluted honey.
Look at one of the issues being stated over and over again here. Blending.
If it were not for blending, I would get paid more for my white, less for my amber, and very little for my dark. My packer will have to run 5-6 different packs just to keep consistency in thier many product lines and cost would rise overall.
Bottom line, less for me.
If I have a bad year of beekeeping and I collect alot of amber and dark honey, I will be out of luck when it comes to selling that honey.
Blending not only helps keep consumer spending habit, it also streamlines production, saves costs and provides a larger market window for the beekeeper to sell their honey into .

Let the small packers take the niche market with variety honey,
let the larger packers handle the volume.

Our packer explained to us the bear bones of variety honey. 
the money simply isnt there for a large packer to cover cost. 
Dollars and cent, contracts and customers


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## wolfpenfarm

You know what, the average consumer doesn't know they are spending 3.85 for that bear bottle of honey and it isn't even pure honey. It says honey on it and it doesn't even have on its label that it isn't pure honey. Anyone that would give you 60% honey and 40% corn sugar is a thief when they do not disclose that the corn sugar is in there. 

You can buy honey from producers at 5.00 -9.00 a pound depending on the type of honey. Thats still cheaper than watered down honey in wally world.

IF your saying honey x y or z is better in a b or c product, your advertising there is a difference in x y or z honey. Thats a different story. 

I definately agree with you on the marketing ideas.


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## 123456789

Perhaps it's unique to my circumstance, but 95% of my customers just come in, stock up on honey and go on their way. They already seem to know how to use it to their liking.


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## StevenG

123456, it sounds like your customers are already educated! :thumbsup:
As I grow and try to expand my market, I run into people who know the value of what I sell, and want it. Others don't understand why my honey is worth more than supermarket honey, which frequently isn't pure, but a blend with HFCS or some such. 

Part of my "education" program is to explain how my honey is produced different from the supermarket honey, and why that makes it more healthy. Also I like the look on their faces when they read the supermarket honey blend label for the first time, and discover it isn't pure honey. They see the word "Honey" and think it's pure. For example, one day at the local Wal**** I decided to read the label on the steaks my wife was getting ready to buy. Needless to say, beef wasn't the only ingredient. We haven't bought beef there since. 

While I don't want the person who wants to pay 99 cents for a pound of blended sweetner labeled 'honey' as a customer, I do want MY customers to know what they're getting, and why it's good for them. By doing this in a tasteful, non-threatening way, I'm hoping to expand my customer base. And if they show one of my brochures to a friend, yep! I'll get another customer! :applause:
Regards,
Steven


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## 123456789

StevenG

I think what I was trying to say earlier in this thread (but did a poor job of it) is that those folks that buy 'honey sweetner' from grocery stores will be
90+% of your customer base. Selling honey to people who care about honey is like shooting fish in a barrel.

If you want to expand to sell 10's of thousands of pounds I think you'll find that the vast majority of your sales will be due to:

Price, location,convenience.

When I say 'listen to the customer' I'm saying the majority buy honey from stores. Gate sales don't amount to a drop in the bucket in the honey industry.

Folks who want to sample 5 different types of honey are already sold, you're wasting your time preaching to the choir. 

The trick is, how do you convince people who don't give a **** about 'quality' honey to stop at your honey stand. And believe me, you'll need thousands of them.


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## ACBEES

My inlaws invited my wife and I to taste some bread made with ARTIFICIAL HONEY . I looked at the label on the bottle of artificial honey.....bunch of chemicals I had a hard time pronouncing. The funny thing is, it had the same amount of carbs/serving as a label for real honey.

We declind to taste the bread being the true blue beeks we are. Why in the world would anyone want to buy artificial honey and ingest a bunch of chemicals which each tablespoon full???

I too am trying to expand my local market through education. One of the local restaurants serves honey clearly cut with HFCS. Hopefully I'll have a good crop and get them on board this year.

StevenG to add to your comment about the beef.....I'd give anything to be able to find a chicken in a grocery store that wasn't injected with a "flavor enhancing" solution that made up as much as 15% of the weight of the package of chicken.


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## deknow

mark, i respect your viewpoint here...without a doub the best way to deal with a problem is to be too busy making money to make it worth your time to even notice it is there 

i want to make sure you understand that the NHB spends the money it collects from first handlers that go through more than 250000lbs of honey a year (a penny a pound) to tell the public that there is no difference between imported/heated/blended/tainted supermarket honey and your honey. we know that _some_ supermarket honey is lousy, and it's irresponsible (at best) to equate that with quality product.

i'm not advocating "badmouthing" someone because they are a competitor, i'm advocating telling the public the truth when they have already been lied to.

...and i don't think i'll ever get over the NHB spending a million dollars co-promoting the bee movie...as AN EDUCATIONAL FILM!

deknow


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## Roland

Ian - I understand your point. We all have different "rows to hoe". I do not think we could get amber honey here if we tried. I am lucky to get a little ELA from Aster and Goldenrod for a little variety.

Roland


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## Ian

Different floral and tastes types is one point in the honey industry that truly makes marketing a real challenge. 
Its not like wheat, canola, or beef, where you can simply manage the operations to bring in one consistent product from anywhere in the world.
Honey quality hinges largely on the floral it is pulled from. 
consumers are a creature of habit, and they tend to settle their habits on predictability. They reach for the honey jar, they want it to taste the same as it did last week , last year, when they were a kid. I am not saying thats a bad thing at all. Its just the way consumer act and react. I think the honey industry has done a great job suiting to consumers habit. Being able to take honey produced all around the world and placing it in the consumers hands affordably.
I dont like it when the packer continue to get hammered by us for providing the very service we ask of them to do. We are in a world market place. We do trade our honey world wide, wheather we export or not doesnt matter. World trade dictates the price we get for our produce. We all benifet on that exhange. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

Now, from a beekeepers point of view, lets educate that consumer and make them realize where the honey comes from, and how its produced. Lets get them in the habit of buying our honey because of its quality, and lets get them in the habit of providing the chance line our pockets with gold!


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## sqkcrk

123456 said:


> Perhaps it's unique to my circumstance, but 95% of my customers just come in, stock up on honey and go on their way. They already seem to know how to use it to their liking.


Sure, that makes sense. Do you suppose that if you put a hangtag of recipes on some of your jars or a pamphlet in their bag that they might use a little more or the same in a different way? You might sell a little more honey. You may sell out.


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## sqkcrk

123456 said:


> The trick is, how do you convince people who don't give a **** about 'quality' honey to stop at your honey stand. And believe me, you'll need thousands of them.


You probably can't, until you get them to try your honey. 

Every now and then I see one of my jars or honeybears on the shelf in the grocery store next to the other honey that the store also sells. My honey is in the produce section, not the grocery section, so I know they picked mine up first and then chose the cheaper stuff. It doesn't bother me. I just say to myself, "I'll get you next time."

There's nothing wrong w/ the more cheaply priced store brand honey. But mine is better. I'm not going to sell it at a price that will make the store owner sell it for less than their store brand. Fewer sales at a higher price result in more profit per pound.


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## sqkcrk

ACBEES said:


> One of the local restaurants serves honey clearly cut with HFCS.


If this is so, and especially provable, someone should take them to court for adulteration of honey.

You need to get Texas to adopt the FL Law on Honey Purity.


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## sqkcrk

deknow said:


> mark, i respect your viewpoint here...without a doub the best way to deal with a problem is to be too busy making money to make it worth your time to even notice it is there
> 
> i want to make sure you understand that the NHB spends the money it collects from first handlers that go through more than 250000lbs of honey a year (a penny a pound) to tell the public that there is no difference between imported/heated/blended/tainted supermarket honey and your honey. we know that _some_ supermarket honey is lousy, and it's irresponsible (at best) to equate that with quality product.
> 
> i'm not advocating "badmouthing" someone because they are a competitor, i'm advocating telling the public the truth when they have already been lied to.
> 
> ...and i don't think i'll ever get over the NHB spending a million dollars co-promoting the bee movie...as AN EDUCATIONAL FILM!
> 
> deknow


Right you are deknow, that movies was awful and awfully uneducational.

I gotta laygh out of your first statement. Thanks.

I agree. Tell them the truth. But I believe that you are wasting your time telling someone something that they didn't ask to be told. And it doesn't speak well for our industry. But if they ask, tell them.

The NHB hasn't been beneficial to the US beekeeping industry. Only to the packers.


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## 123456789

sqkcrk said:


> Sure, that makes sense. Do you suppose that if you put a hangtag of recipes on some of your jars or a pamphlet in their bag that they might use a little more or the same in a different way? You might sell a little more honey. You may sell out.


 Actually I took down 50% of my signage this year. Sold out in Nov, bought 12 barrels to get me through til closing. Just arranged to get 25 barrels to get me to the new crop. I long for the 'I hope I sell out' days.

Although starting out, recipe pamphlets may make the difference between selling 3 cases vs 2 at a farmers market, ultimately price will determine your volume.


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## loggermike

Looks like the Chinese are still merrily circumventing with the help of their friends .This link was posted on Bee-l. It is Ron Phipps speech at 2010 AHPA meeting.
http://www.americanhoneyproducers.org/Articles/PhippsSpeechJan2010.pdf


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## loggermike

He also points out that there are health benefits to real honey that would help the honey market like it did almonds , blueberries etc.
A few years ago the almond growers were wondering if they would be able to market a billion pound crop. NOW, they say at least a billion or more lbs crop is needed just to stay even with demand!


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## Joel

MMMM Rice Syrup - Sounds pretty tasty to me!

Of course we all knew this was coming in force when wholesale prices went up, didn't we?


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## irwin harlton

Price of "real" honey set for rapid rise?


The Argentine crop was about 110 million pounds, largely due to a severe
drought. A significant shortage of white honey has emerged. Aside from the allegedly
circumvented “white honey” from tropical regions, the price of white honey has greatly
firmed and will likely remain firm through the second and third quarters of this year.
Both Brazil and Vietnam have provided a significant and necessary amount of light
amber honey, so essential to the industrial honey market. Total 2009 imports of honey
declined relative to 2008, according to initial indications. This decline could be
influenced by honey being imported through customs categories other than “honey” and
the persistence of the “Packer’s Blend” loophole which may also play a role in the
reduction of total reported 

from Ron Phipps
imports.-http://www.americanhoneyproducers.or...echJan2010.pdf


----------



## irwin harlton

News from www.apitrack.com
English link http://www.apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm <added by mod>


2010-01-25
NEW ZEALAND- DRY CONDITIONS HAVE RESULTED IN A BIG DROP IN HONEY PRODUCTION IN THE NORTHLANDS
Beekeepers Association Northland secretary Simon Peacy says there is very little nectar. Clover dried up in December - normally until it lasts until February. He says the hives have a lot less honey than in other years. 


2010-01-25
MEXICO- DUE TO THE COLD HONEY PRODUCTION WILL GO DOWN 3,000 TONS IN YUCATAN
Yucatan Beekeepers say the bloom was good, but the cold prevented the flow of nectar, which caused a 30% decline in total production of honey Yucatan. This decrease as a result of the cold means that beekeepers will not produce 3,000 tons of honey.
See Original Article at www.apitrack.com




2010-01-25
MEXICO- LOOSES 50% OF HONEY HARVEST IN SOME ZONES OF TABASCO DUR TO THE COLD WEATHER
The 50 percent of the production of honey from the Sierra region was lost to the ravages caused the unusual low temperatures were recorded during the last December revealed Honey beekeepers Association of the Sierra.

2010-01-25
ARGENTINA- CONTINUE DOWN THE PERCENTAGE OF EXPORT PRICE PAID TO HONEY PRODUCER
In 2009 on an average export price of US$ 2744 per tonne, the beekeeper received an average of US$ 2070, or 75.43% of that amount. This represents a decrease of nearly 8% over the previous year.

010-01-22
MEXICO- ARE NOT EXPECTING GOOD HONEY HARVEST IN CAMPECHE
Unfortunately for the beekeepers, honey production will be regular, because of the lack of rain and cold fronts on the past that prevented the flowering of the principal trees and plants of the region as tajonal the jabin and Chaco. However, their hope that the weather won't continues to affect and not even able to obtain good crop of honey, however to continue the low temperatures and thus avoid their financial losses. Beekeepers Rodrigo Chi, Alfonso Ku and José Queb indicated that these weather conditions do not bode well, although they said happily, 50 percent of the hives are in perfect condition

2010-01-21
UNITED KINGDOM- BEE NUMBERS FALLING TWICE AS FAST AS THOSE IN EUROPE
The UK bee population is declining at more than twice the rate of that in Europe, according to a new University of Reading study. The research, published online last week by Dr Simon Potts and colleagues, has shown that there has been a 54% decline in England in managed honey bee populations over the last 20 years, compared to an average of 20% across Europe.

2010-01-21
BRAZIL- HONEY EXPORTS DECEMBER 2009
In the month were exported 1,789 tonnes (-2.6%) for a total of US$ 4.9 million (+11.7%) at an average price of US$ 2,738 per ton (+5.1%). In the year's total was exported 26,000 tons (+42.3%) for a total value of US$ 65.79 million (+51%) at an average price of $ 2,530 per ton (+6.1%). All percentage values versus the same period last year.


----------



## irwin harlton

Prices in Canada have moved up, Odem is at 1.50 for 25mm or better, BillyBee is reported to be at 1.52 ,march payment (COULD SOMEONE PLEASE CONFIRM THIS PRICE)

This is movement in the right direction and no doubt will continue......


----------



## irwin harlton

2010-01-31

ARGENTINA- HONEY HARVEST IS COMING VERY COMPLICATED
The journalist specializing Federico Petrera (s) and the Engineer Javier Folgar Besone comment on the progress of the harvest in progress, although some small areas that comes well, there are many where the situation is very bad.

this is a video clip in spanish, from http://www.apitrack.com .....who can losely translate this?


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## JohnLaurino

he video says what has been said for 3-4 weeks : argentina has different scnearios in different areas, the crop will be better than 2009 but surely not a great one, the jornalist Petrera says total volume for exports will be app 62,000 tons. 
Northern provinces of Argentina, mainly Chaco and Corrientes got very bad prospects, the same for Northern Cordoba. At the same time, Buenos Aires is quite better than 2009. 
I would guess the exports from Argentina in 2010 will be app 66,000-70,000 tons as argentine beeks and their friends always try to exagerate the bad prospects and understimate the good ones. 

Uruguay will have a better output, estimated to be 10,000 tons. Chile is expected to offer the same as last year while Brazil may at least repeat the 2009's perfomance. Vietnam is already getting a good crop, much better than 2009 (one of the worse ever). There will be a bigger volume of honeys being offered from the South hemisphere this year, the big question is if the demand will compensate this move or not. If so, in what level.


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## irwin harlton

Thankyou John

What precentage of this new 2010 honey do you estimate to be ELA and amber, the rest of course being white


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## JohnLaurino

this is a USD 100,000 question ... I dont have any good idea/


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## John Smith

John Laruino, what is happening with the consumption rate in Argentina?

Worldwide consumption appears to be increasing. Just saying that this year will net us more production than last year is meaningless unless we allow that last year may have been the worse season ever in many places.
With about 1% of sweeteners now being consumed coming from beehives, and the trend already underway to INSIST on natural honey, it appears to me that it would take very little movement in the minds of the masses to increase that numeral to 2%, 

That, sir, would require DOUBLING the current average production. The only thing I can think of that would double the production quickly would be for the price to hit ten dollars a kg. It probably will, maybe soon, and it may not stop there either.

Cheers,
JohnS


----------



## lake thompson honey

midwest packer paying $1.52. going to move up more as retail sales are good and the supply is short. $1.60 would not surprise me.


----------



## irwin harlton

honey hot line 1 763 658 4193

Quite a difference between what smaller packers are paying and the big guys.Guess the big guys are maybe working on that volume discount theory.
A Canadian broker offering 1.50 in your yard , well got be at LEAST 5 cents plus the exchange rate involved here.Freight is high.So someone somewhere is payng more than 1.52. ... but shhhhhhhhh we want to buy all the cheap white honey we can , right here in the good ol USA
US dollar is gaining strength, I can net 1.055 Can for one US dollar, Hope the Lonnie drops SOME more with the oil price
Small packers in Canada buying 1.60 -1.80, much the the same as in USA.
Seems the glut of swill honey is holding down the prices in the industrial market and influencing the the retail packaged market.No doubt swill is being added to the packaged honey to keep the profits high by the unscrupulous packers.Greed definitely makes the world go round
Would love to know the present size of this US industrial market. Anyone?
Instability and volatility in the markets, especially the currency markets are adding mayhem to all of this.


----------



## John Smith

Ian, it would be nice to have some reliable statistics on the industrial consumption of honey but I suspect the reason there are none forthcoming, is that it is fast approaching a nil usage situation. It would depend on where one drew the line between industrial and cottage industry production. 

If it matters little how much real honey is in supermarket honey, why would anyone want to put real honey into a factory produced product? There are less eyes on the big manufacturers than there are on the supermarkets.


----------



## irwin harlton

http://www.apitrack.com/frame/index.php?language_id=2&news_id=9498


Friday, 5 February, 2010 - 19:30

Wellington, Feb 5 NZPA - Beekeepers are warning the country's growing honey trade with the United States will suffer if Australian honey products are allowed into New Zealand.

The National Beekeepers' Association of New Zealand (NBA) said tonight that Australian honey was being mixed with international honey and exported as an Australian product.

"If Australian honey imports are allowed into New Zealand, New Zealand risks becoming a 'honey laundering' hub, a situation that would severely damage our honey exporters," NBA joint chief executive Gemma Collier said.


Australian honey imports inTO Canada exceed $10M for 2009.............mmmmmmmmmm more funny honey


----------



## JohnK and Sheri

Please, let's keep to the topic of bulk honey prices and market outlook. Just the facts, folks. 
Sheri


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## sqkcrk

Okay, I bought some honey lately at $1.45/lb in barrels and $100.00 per 60 lb bucket. It's ELA clover and goldenrod honey.

Three barrels and 50 buckets, from two diffent sources in NY.


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## John Smith

OK, sqkcrk, we all know there is honey available at nil cost at times. There are plenty of beekeepers including Ulee who give it away. That is acceptable. But my farm gate price is not determined by the value of what I give away.

...... you need to disclose what size the barrels were, how many pounds in total you bought at these prices, ..

Cough up brother, or were you just hoping to pour cold water on our hopes of a little rise?

Cheers,

JohnS


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## Kieck

Based on the way I figure what Mark (sqkcrk) gave us, the price he paid was an average of $1.58 a pound. Am I figuring right, Mark?


----------



## JohnK and Sheri

John, Mark's price is typical of what we are seeing on the *wholesale* level for ELA and the wholesale level is what commercial beekeepers most deal with, what this forum is focused on and what this thread is meant to convey. That is a good price for ELA, historically on the high side for *bulk *wholesale, at least when considering barrels. When we say barrels here, we are talking about 55 gal, unless specified otherwise. Pails are 60# and being a smaller container, bring a higher price.
We are NOT talking retail here.
Prices always vary by individual sale. Sometimes a seller is caught unawares of price rises, sometimes a buyer pays way more than his competition due to desperation. While these prices may not reflect the average nation wide seasonal pricing, it is a snapshot of the market at that particular place and time and is useful to others here. Quantity is only one possibly relevant factor, mostly notable in that small quantities are more expensive, all things equal, than larger ones. We charge more for the odd barrel going out the door than by the semi. 
Sheri
Please, this thread is for exchanging BULK pricing and market info, not being cheerleaders for consumer awareness. Editorializing about what honey prices should be is preaching to the choir here. If wishful thinking made the price rise, we would all be millionaires.


----------



## sqkcrk

John Smith said:


> OK, sqkcrk, we all know there is honey available at nil cost at times. There are plenty of beekeepers including Ulee who give it away. That is acceptable. But my farm gate price is not determined by the value of what I give away.
> 
> ...... you need to disclose what size the barrels were, how many pounds in total you bought at these prices, ..
> 
> Cough up brother, or were you just hoping to pour cold water on our hopes of a little rise?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> JohnS


Okay, 50 buckets at $100.00 each containing 60 lbs of honey each.
Three barrels of honey at $1.45/lb. Gross weight 700lb, 689lb and 694lb.

I got an inquiry about whether I could supply a guy w/ 1300lbs of honey for his summer beer batch. He didn't balk at my $2.00/lb price. Just sent him and his brewer a sample each.

What I pay for honey is quite different from what I sell honey for, but it does contribute to what that price is in the end, of course.


----------



## sqkcrk

Kieck said:


> Based on the way I figure what Mark (sqkcrk) gave us, the price he paid was an average of $1.58 a pound. Am I figuring right, Mark?


Yeah, I guess. I didn't do the math. But, $100.00/60lb bucket is $1.666666/lb, isn't it?

At ABF mtng I heard that Dave H. had barrels of honey that he was going to sell for $2.00/lb. I don't know if he did or not. 

Back when I sold barrels of honey, a packer in the NE would tell me that their price was $X.XX, but they weren't buying any. So, I don't know why they told me that. Does anyone want to sell me some honey at $1.75/lb? Or $1.90?


----------



## sqkcrk

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Please, this thread is for exchanging BULK pricing and market info,


Oh, okay, I didn't realize that. I guess my reports are more like those found in BeeCulture and ABJ. Anecdotal.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri

Mark, your report is relevant, I wasn't talking to you. Anecdotal is about all we have, right? I just wanted to stress to anyone thinking the prices reported were very low, that we were talking _bulk_ honey, not retail. We don't want anyone thinking these are retail prices. 
Sheri


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## John Smith

Many beekeepers are both producers and traders, buying in as little as they need while others buy far more than they produce. It isn't necessarily easy to decide sometimes, whether those folk really want prices to go up or down, not even in their own minds perhaps.

Cheers,
JohnS


----------



## irwin harlton

"HA NOI — Viet Nam exported more than 14 million tonnes of honey last year, earning US$23 million, according to the Ministry of Agriculture and Rural Development. 




The US recently became the biggest importer of Vietnamese honey, taking 80 per cent of exports. Vietnamese honey accounts for 17 per cent of the market."

http://www.apitrack.com/frame/index.php?language_id=2&news_id=9568

All ELA and amber , except the white stuff that comes transhipped from China......... is that $1642/MT or .75/lb??????, cheap ehh!


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## irwin harlton

John said "Many beekeepers are both producers and traders, buying in as little as they need while others buy far more than they produce. It isn't necessarily easy to decide sometimes, whether those folk really want prices to go up or down, not even in their own minds perhaps."
I would like to think anyone who has been it this buissness for any length of time would gladly like to see honey prices higher than what current markets are offering,especially from the producer end.

I think and sometimes contemplate as I look at honey prices on the store shelf of a number of things.

The premier Canadian product selling for $12.49 per Kg......close to $6/LB( 5.67 actually).
Not uncommon to have a vendors markup of 30-35 % involved in this final price, also a brokerage fee of 7-10 % and numerous other incidental costs, usually referred to as the middleman costs
As the price increases, so do these middleman costs, brokerage fees,and vendors markup.
Current prices to the producer are 1.50-1.60/lb REPRESENTING approx 30 % of the total cost to the end consumer.
"The average retail prices of honey have increased in the U.S. by 16% over the past 24 months without any corresponding decline in consumption, which is estimated to be ....."
from Mr Ron Phipps, page 1038 ABJ , NOV 2009.

So are we at the point where "sticker price shock" is cutting sales and leveled off demand from consumers, or is the economy so bad that the luxury food HONEY is falling in sales?
I think not,I think it is the packers who are, were addicted to the lower priced foreign honey.The current color of honey on the U.S. Wall Mart shelf grows darker every month.
There used be a time when packers took a lot of pride in how light colored and mild flavored their pack was , seems to have been replaced by the desire to make money at any cost.
"Although nominal honey prices have trended upwards over time ,real prices(net of inflation) have trended downwards,with both series exhibiting substantial year to year variation.Historically high recent nominal prices are considerably lower, in real terms, than historical real prices" FROM ARTICLE "U.S. Honey Markets,ABJ, page1128, December 2009
There is also a graph on the same page showing prices 1999 to 2007.......... the price hasn't gone up much from 2007, if any,................ long overdue I say for a big bump up

Choose a job you like and you will never have to work a day in your life.
Confucius quote 

William Black is author of "The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One".


----------



## sqkcrk

irwin, it seemed for a while there that people were buying honey, regardless of the economy, because they have been buying it. I don't know if that is true or not, just a feeling. But the difference between sales in '08 and '09 rose only by 2%, so maybe honey sales have dropped for me. I'm not sure.

January sales in 2010 were 1000 lbs higher than in 2009. I think that that may reflect the fact that there isn't as much honey out there now as there was last year. I have picked up a couple of new customers because their supplier didn't keep up the accounts.

I raised my prices last Sept. I think I need to raise them again.

I know this isn't on the large scale, but I hope it is the sort of discussion that you are looking for.


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## Eaglerock

sqkcrk said:


> I raised my prices last Sept. I think I need to raise them again.
> 
> I know this isn't on the large scale, but I hope it is the sort of discussion that you are looking for.


 So sre you selling bulk? Or- are you just selling local in jars?


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## irwin harlton

HONEY MARKET REPORT
March 1, 2010
Ron Phipps




Given the current global economic recession and high rates of unemployment and underemployment, there are obvious and real restraints on how high honey prices can rise.

" Life is too short to wake up in the morning with regrets . So love the people who treat you right , and forget about the ones who don't and believe that everything happens for a reason . If you get a chance , take it . If it changes your life , let it . Nobody said that it would be easy , they just promised it would be worth it ." ?


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## jean-marc

I agree with Mr. Phipps. However some of the so called honey coming from China , you know the stuff that apparently gets cut with rice syrup are preventing honey from attaining that level. Evidently the market will dictate that figure.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

HONEY MARKET REPORT
March 1, 2010
Ron Phipps

"Argentine beekeepers with poor or bad crops are thinking the only path for their survival is with an irrationally high surge in prices. The beekeepers with normal crops are cognizant of the overall situation and are selling honey in only small quantities to cover immediate costs while “waiting for higher prices.” Of course, they may mis-calculate and wait too long, given the fact that the abundant rains and snows covering California and the Midwest could portend a bigger North American honey crop in 2010. The wild card variable of circumvented and cheap Chinese honey still looms large over the American honey market. In any case, Argentine honey prices are likely to remain firm. In January, about 2,500MT were exported with an additional 3,500-5,000MT are expected to be exported in February. From March through June it is expected that Argentina will be able to export about 5,000MT monthly. The overall global economic difficulties may, in the final analysis, restrain the Argentine beekeepers’ ambition to achieve the historically high prices that they seek."





http://www.apitrack.com/noticias/aaacotizacionmiel_es_open.htm

From looking at the above site I would say prices are definitely on the upward move in Argentina, no mention of quantity, volume there.
Volume of exports for 2010 should be found here http://www.senasa.gov.ar/indexhtml.php


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## irwin harlton

http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B9edS5OtMIN1YmM4ZDNlYWQtNzJmNS00MzgyLWI2MGItMzQxMDY0ZmNkY2Yx&hl=en


click on link to see documents, Argentina honey exports 2009
Argentina honey exports 2010
Ron Phipps Honey Report March3, 2010


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## sqkcrk

Eaglerock said:


> So sre you selling bulk? Or- are you just selling local in jars?


Primarily doing direct store deliveries of jars and 5 gallon totes.


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## John Smith

Despite and regardless of the whispers and secrets of commercially sensitive information, here’s an official publication quotation from “Australia’s Honeybee News” January – February Edition, 2010.

In the page devoted to ‘Presidents Report’ is this excerpt:

“Prices paid by some packers have dropped mainly driven by their inability to pay; other packers are maintaining or slightly lifting prices to secure stocks they require.”

Obviously, Australia is headed into their winter marketing conditions, so some urgency exists with putting in stock. However, unless credit is available from our banking tree, it will be very difficult for packers to find capital to buy in their stock at elevated prices.

Happy Marketing,

JohnS


----------



## Beeslave

A packer called me wanting honey. He is paying $1.38-$1.40 for Amber, $1.48 for Extra Light Amber, and $1.55 for White.


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## irwin harlton

Vietnam is suffering from the worst drought in over a century

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1969630,00.html

Honey prices seem to be moving up, Canadian broker offering 1.60 picked up in beekeepers yard-- source Manitoba Beekeepers convention. We now are backup to the price we had offered last fall
Current USA prices 1.55-- source Mid US Honey Hot Line , recording march 4th

Retail, on the shelf prices had a zero increase in 2009, according to this study http://www.washingtonwinemaker.com/blog/2010/01/25/honey-prices-unexpectedly-flat-in-2009/

From Kim Flottum at http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/bees/2009-honey-crop-470301#ixzz0hVgbYAxL

"The average price of honey( BULK) increased a couple cents per pound - 2 percent over last year’s prices, from $1.421 to $1.445 per pound. Retail prices, however, were even higher, rising from $2.247 to $2.784 per pound, or just over 50 cents a pound. That’s a hike by any standard." These prices are I believe are from the National Honey Board site


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## irwin harlton

looks to me like that the trans-shipped Chinese honey market is being well supplied in 2010

http://www.honey.com/nhb/industry/industry-statistics/

click USDA National Honey Report scroll down to imports


white honey


Indonesia 537,100 kg


----------



## Beeslave

I received a call from another packer wanting honey. I sent him sample of the 3 colors I have left. 1/3 of the honey is ELA, another 1/3 is Dark ELA/Light LA, and the last 1/3 is LA made mostly from Golden Rod and Frost aster with some summer honey mixed in it. After viewing and tasting my samples he offered $1.50 per lb. across the board for the whole lot. I jokingly asked him if I waited 2 wks would he offer me $1.60. He seriously responded back saying it was very possible. It depended on what was available from Canada yet.


----------



## irwin harlton

Canadian broker is currently paying 1.60 for white,in beekeepers yard........so add freight,duty and brokers fees and you have what packer is paying
The scarcity of the product white honey , the price fixing determined by the financial deflationary recession,the market depression by unbelievable cheap Chinese trans-shipped syrup,......lots of variables pushing on the price. Raising the price, up till now has been like pushing on a string.A large number of producers have sold at or below current prices, so some producers must have assumed that is, was a good price or they couldn't see it getting better. Prices have risen in Argentina and could go a lot higher
Barring a complete USA economic crash I see a parabolic curve in prices for honey,bombing of Iran would probably help push the price up. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/world-news/final-destination-iran-1.1013151


----------



## irwin harlton

And adding to the world wide shortage of honey we have this; http://www.apitrack.com/frame/index.php?news_id=9874&language_id=2

A little spill on the expressway,.......probably Chinese anyways

Argentina keepers are netting 2.23 USD per Kg,from buyers ,brokers, this is up from previous years and looks like to me they net more from USA sales then from European sales in Euro's, the euro being weaker and that honey is traded in US dollars world wide.USA is the largest buyer. http://www.apitrack.com/frame/index.php?language_id=2&news_id=9872

From the Honey Hot Line , maybe that packer paying 1.62, with payment delayed two months can buy his groceries and gas like that, but I doubt it, anyone looking or asking for deals like this ain't living in the real world.Honey to money= cash or 30 days.
The packer logic being that in 2 months , honey is going to worth lot more than 1.62


"Money, when considered as the fruit of many years' industry, as the reward of labor, sweat and toil, as the widow's dowry and children's portion, and as the means of procuring the necessaries and alleviating the afflictions of life, and making old age a scene of rest, has something in it sacred that is not to be sported with, or trusted to the airy bubble of paper currency." 
Thomas Paine


----------



## Mtn. Bee

I sell my honey retail only and am aware that this post is not intended to relate to that market so I won't comment about the retail end of things.
The comment I wanted to make was to hold your ground on your honey prices as purchasers are willing to pay if they want the product.
Also remember all that hard work and time and money you have invested into your operation months before the extracting season even starts??!! :thumbsup:
My point is don't cut yourself and your product short, lets keep the market where it should be, in our favor!
Ok, I will shut up now! 

p.s. Just my 2 cents!


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## irwin harlton

Argentina price for white jumps up..............hoping this is the take off for world wide higher prices


http://www.apinews.com/en/argentina-honey-price



There is no such thing as a bad debt. There are only bailouts-in-waiting.


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## irwin harlton

no, Argentina jump was only a currency effect, from a friend in Chile


----------



## Wee3Bees Apiary

Has anyone heard if that warehouse fire in Houston has had any affect yet on this year's honey prices? Last I heard ELA might be $1.60 this year... could this be the year for $2 a pound for white?

Just wondering... it's been almost a month since anyone posted on this thread.


----------



## irwin harlton

HONEY PACKERS’ & MARKETERS’ASSOCIATION AUSTRALIA (HPMAA) REPORT
As at 1 April 2010
Packers now report better holding levels of honey due to improved weather conditions around the country (despite the storms, drought or fire effects). Sales vary according to who you are talking to but overall there is a sense of normality on them. Noted points are:
• Consumption appears to have had a very slight increase as the Retail World data for year ending 2009 showed this. Taking into account the larger unknown of beekeeper direct sales once could deduce this same pattern in the market.
• Packers report it is difficult to make margins these days as a result of increased costs and supermarket demands.
• Packers’ brands remain under enormous pressure to house branded/generic labels with the major chain still having a high focus on them.
• Supermarkets are now demanding their brand suppliers to start to undertake Ethical sourcing audits, carbon foot printing and a range of other criteria. All this just adds costs to the packer. In the end the last in the line suffers as they (supermarkets in general) don’t pass this added cost onto consumers so they can stay highly competitive and their margin is not eroded.
• The high Australian dollar is seeing reduced exports. This will mean that as honey comes back to normal levels farm gate values will be under pressure to fall.
• In the world market there is a sense that honey prices will fall adding further pressure on Australian producers as we compete against cheap competition.
• Export information from the ABS shows that packaged product volumes remained much the same for the December period this financial year as last year. Export bulk rose very marginally. Imports showed an increase in bulk honey but the data is skewed as a proportional amount is re-exported to specialised customers who request a certain flavour profile product which is a blend with Australian. Another variable has been Canadian bulk honey being imported then re-exported back again as value added product – however with the packer existing some of this market, the data will, in time, take on a more normalised result

from http://www.honeybee.org.au


----------



## suttonbeeman

sold orange ex white for 1.60...three major packers all offering 1.60 with barrel exchange and picked up at your dock!


----------



## irwin harlton

FROM http://skamberg.com/honey.htm

Honey Update:

May 2010

The 2009 U.S. honey crop was the poorest U.S. honey crop in recorded history. The 144 million pound crop was down 12% from the 2008 crop, and down 28% from the 200 million average crop levels of 10 years ago. Over the last 5 years, the U.S. honey crop has averaged 156 million pounds.



Some of the reasons for the poor 2009 U. S. crop are listed below:

*

Weather – Drought conditions in the West, and very cool, wet weather in the upper Mid-West
*

Reduced forage area – Much of the prime forage area for bees has been turned into farm land for 
*

cash crops or developed for commercial or residential use.
*

Fewer bees – Colony Collapse Disorder and increased pesticide use in what was once bee forage 
*

areas has reduced bee colony numbers. 

The decline in U.S crop production, along with poor honey crops produced in most of the world’s leading honey producing countries, has created critical supply shortages. Since demand for this honey has not fallen significantly, raw honey prices in the world market are rising.



The South American honey crop was poor due mostly to poor weather conditions. South American honey is very expensive and most of that honey is being sold to Europe.



India produced a good honey crop, but Sioux is finding much of that honey to be adulterated, which means that smaller volumes of that honey are available from Sioux. Pricing for this honey is about 15% to 20 % higher than last year. 



Although the Vietnam honey crop is better than last year, the total volume is small, and competition for this honey is high.



Most of the Chinese honey is being sold to Europe. The U. S is still receiving Chinese honey being sold as honey syrup or circumvented through a 3rd country, which has created and sustained a second tiered market. Deception is the concern for any Chinese honey entering the U.S., with adulterated and contaminated honey being the main concerns.



The best that most can hope for price relief is a bumper U.S. crop in 2010, but even if that happens, prices will start out very high and only drop back if buying drops off.


----------



## Wee3Bees Apiary

What is White, ELA and LA going for now that the crop is starting to come in (at least in the South)? I don't have a feel for 2010 prices yet... does anyone else?


----------



## knorm

There is a rumor that the current offering price for white honey is $1.68 (US) or more- can anyone confirm that.


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## Beeslave

WI packer only offering $1.60 lb for ELA/WH(clover, basswood, alfalfa).


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## sqkcrk

Do you have to show the packer a honey standard certificate?


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## Beeslave

? Wasn't mentioned ?


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## suttonbeeman

You do NOT have to prove you have a test meeting honey standard! IF a packer or a beekeeper finds adulterated honey then you can use the standard to go after the dishonest person(company). At no time have I ever heard of anyone having to have test before they sell honey! And I am very good friends with the person who got the first one passed in Florida and also know the attorney who helped get it established! Its the best thing that has happened to honest beekeepers/honey producers!


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## sqkcrk

Well, apparently in WI you can't legaly sell honey w/out a license and w/out having tested honey that meets the standard. According to what I read on another Thread.


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## The Honey Householder

For me to keep it all fair I send my samples to three different packers. They each sent me back color grade, % of moist, and if there is any thing that shouldn't be in pure honey like (HFCS). It's funny how different some test come back. 
A packer called me to see if I had a load, and quoted me $1.68 on Wht. No barrel exchange. 30 day payout.( sorry not a bank)
Come on that price was last years price.
The way it looks the beekeeper will get all my honey again this year.


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## Roland

SQKCRK - I am unaware of any promogulation of the administrative codes for honey in Wisconsin. It was expected to take 12-18 months. The Bill only directed the Ag. department to promogulate the rules, Please correct me, anyone, if I am wrong. I have the e-mail of the person who was to promogulate the rules. When Summer is over, I will check on their progress.

Roland


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## sqkcrk

Thanks Roland.


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## irwin harlton

from the start of this Thread in 2005
" Deflation , then inflation and currently a whole bunch of de-leveraging going on in this crazy economy, which I hear from the majority with crystal balls, that is only going to get worse as a recession or a depression .'

Now today in July 2010 the US is essentially broke , bankrupt, whats coming next......higher honey prices?......maybe down the road when the official crop results come in,and inflation kicks in .Things are not looking good , crop wise here or from what I hear in western Canada or elsewhere.So todays packers offerings are shall I say MEAGER OR INSULTING

From what I hear we or the powers that be have been unable to stop the flow of Chinese honey, it no doubt has been the kiss of death to this industry and is continuing on a larger scale.I hear new plans of attack on this curse, meetings with gov't ... homeland security

Here's something to ponder
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Archives2009/RobertsUSFailedState.html

Food maybe become short in supply, expensive........honey included.
Truth is in short supply but it is out there

http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2010_08_01_archive.html

There will be pain in Canada from this financial mess,perhaps leading to hyper inflation cause we are so tied into your economy with our trade ,etc


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## jean-marc

I've extracted a good portion of the 2010 crop. It's time for me to sell it. What prices are being offered and by what packers? I'll have a load.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

"It's time for me to sell it."

Not a good time to sell,Jean Marc, unless you can get the price you want .It seems current offerings coming from packers are low balling....1.50 and their advice is prices are going down in the future ( I f you knew prices were going to be cheaper in the future why would you be buying now)...ITS THE OLD WAITING GAME, TO see who and what moves first , prices or honey at current prices Every load the packers get at current prices MAY INFLUENCE the price later on


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## jmgi

Not being a commercial beekeeper and not having large volumes of honey to move I don't follow what the packers pay that closely, but it must be common practice for packers to low ball the buy price every year at harvest time, sounds like something they would do. John


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## Beeslave

It is.


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## mnbeekeeper

if we can all work together and hold our crops as long as possible i think that would help drive the price up for all of us. then when it gets high we all dump it as fast as we can!! it is tough to hold in the fall lots of expenses, trucking, and feed are the 2 i think of most.


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## jean-marc

One reason I sell my honey at this time of the year is I don't have proper storage. I don't produce a whole bunch of honey and the cost of getting a proper set up would definitely be more expensive than the potential gain gotten by say, a 25 cent increase in price 3 months down the road. I get my honey custom extracted and don't really like storing it there.... so out the door it must go. 1.50-1.60 a pound is a relatively good price. It's enough to encourage those who have equipment sitting idle to purchase nucs to restock their deadouts. Those are the dollars that get my attention.

Jean-Marc


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## sqkcrk

mnbeekeeper said:


> if we can all work together and hold our crops as long as possible i think that would help drive the price up for all of us. then when it gets high we all dump it as fast as we can!! it is tough to hold in the fall lots of expenses, trucking, and feed are the 2 i think of most.


I believe that this is called collusion and is illegal.


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## slickbrightspear

farmers have done it in the past and it is not illegal can't remember the name of the farm organization that organized it. I will ask dad and post it later.


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## sqkcrk

I have heard of $1.50/# for honey in buckets and barrels in NY.


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## jmgi

sqkcrk said:


> I believe that this is called collusion and is illegal.


I think if it is done the right way you could probably get away with it, like someone just said, the farmers have done it in the past. On the other hand, what keeps the packers from buying cheaper foreign honey instead of buying ours at higher price? Is there some law that keeps the packer somewhat honest? I guess if the packer is going to label their product as having some U.S. honey in it, there is a certain amount they have to buy from us. John


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## slickbrightspear

I asked dad he said it was the NFO that did that in the past the problem was that not everyone would hold as they had bills to pay so it did not work very well.


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## sqkcrk

And I believe that it was called a Farmers Strike. Like when a Dairy Farmer dumps a tank of milk in protest of the price.

Beekeepers will never go for it. We can't even stick together in one National Organization, let alone agree to withold honey from the market. So, let's get real.


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## suttonbeeman

sqkcrk...yep you are right its price fixing...anti trust. BUT tobacco companies have done it for yrs....when we sold tobacco at auction every buyer most of time bid same amount. THe auctioneer had a percentage he went by....every buyer knew when it was his turn and would let you know if you messed up(i did some auctioneering) If company a goes up .05 company b follows....the farmer is the only business that sells for what you give him...I can imagine going in walmart and them selling you merchandise at your best "offer". The farmer has been price fixed by big companies for yrs...and nothing done!


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## irwin harlton

So how does $ 4/lb honey sound,..... got a nice ring to it, .........It comes with $20/gallon diesel fuel and the rest of the hyperinflation in all commodities.............http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-post-how-hyperinflation-will-happen


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## jean-marc

$4/lb does have a nice ring to it but currently diesel fuel is slightly over $1/L or put in American that's $4/gallon. Currently honey is $1.5/lb. So to keep honey prices in step with hyperinflation where we would see a 5 fold increase of diesl fuel prices, I would also want a five fold increase in honey prices just to keep in step with the Exxon folks. That would give us $7.5/lb honey. Definitely a way nicer ring to it. Not sure that social order would be maintained at those prices.

Jean-Marc


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## The Honey Householder

Sold melter honey today for $1.50 a lb. only had 3 barrels. Wht. honey selling for $1.85 by the barrel.


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## jmgi

Let's just say that I wouldn't want to see $4/lb. wholesale either because like others have said, cost of everything else would be proportionally higher, and we'd still be complaining. But when the grocery store sells honey at anywhere from $5-$8/lb., I think the producer deserves a bit more right now for their efforts, say $2-$2.50/lb. on a regular basis. JMO. John


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## sqkcrk

And what about when they sell honey at Walmart type prices? Do you think that beekeepers are obliged to send the packers and the retailers some money?

If you aren't making enuf profit, do something more profitable. Like mine gold in Chile. But you'd better own the mine.


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## jmgi

>If you aren't making enuf profit, do something more profitable. Like mine gold in Chile. But you'd better own the mine.[/QUOTE\

I would think that at todays wholesale price from packers, some beeks make a decent profit, others not so good. What's the problem with a few cents more if we can get it? By the way, I do mine gold occasionally, but I'm not the mine owner.  John


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## sqkcrk

If we compare data from the past, I wonder what the graph of prices paid for honey by packers and the cost of living would look like. I wouldn't be surprised to see similar curves throughout history.

Prices paid by packers and cost of production pace each other I bet. And the price is and has been just below or just above cost of production, I believe. Just enuf so, so as to keep beekeepers producing honey.

I wonder if some commodities expert could look at this and see the trends?


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## irwin harlton

I don't think cost of production in North America has ever been a big factor in what the packers will pay,in certain years the price has been below what the cost of production was.
The biggest factor or influence is what the cheap imported honey is selling for .
Do you want some cheap stuff.......http://www.deltahoney.com/bulkhoney.htm
I said stuff not honey........maybe wondering why the price is not going up even with a world shortage of white honey........you can't produce it for that price and make any money doing it ,unless your getting 200 - 300 lb crops


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## jmgi

$1.05/lb.? Wouldn't that mean whoever is importing it is actually paying alot less than that per/lb because shipping costs are included in the $1.05 price too? This just isn't right. John


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## jean-marc

John , that price includes all the shipping costs except for the final one. The buyer in the US would have to pay freight from that LA warehouse. That price would also include the warehousing costs in LA. Most of the chinese honey is produced by peasants who live in Canvas tents and migrate throughout the country in an attempt to follow honeyflows. They use the public trains to move their bees around. The public doesn not care for them much as some people get stung while waiting for trains. These beekeepers for the most part are dirt poor, no trucks for these guys. I think then some small time, district wholesaler picks up the honey from these guys. There is probably a regional wholesaler who picks it up from the district wholesaler. Then a national wholesaler who will pick it up from the regional wholesaler. It's probably the last guy who will do the "Doctoring" of the honey. The ultrafiltration or the add the rice syrup part. Then again not all chinese honey will fall in either of those 2 categories. The chinese produce some acacia honey that is top notch. Acacia honey has a wonderful flavour and is white. So if there are no residue issues and no rice syrup then it is a premium honey.

So what's not right here John? The bulk of chinese honey is produced by migrant peasants who are working for handfulls of rice a day. That's the competition. No matter what you or I do we cannot compete with them, unless you want to drastically alter your lifestyle. I for one am quite attached to my house. I got a new truck this year (used one albeit) and really enjoy it. I don't want to give up these things in order to compete with chinese peasants. I'll go back to teaching or drive truck seeing as how I have a few of them.

I don't have any issues with the small time producers of china. I have issues with the "chemists" that doctor the honey. Ultrafiltration takes honey and turns it into some fancy syrup but it isn't honey anymore. Adding rice syrup blending it with honey to avoid tariffs and then still calling it honey I have issues with. 

This world market is in a bit of a mess and I for one don't see it going away anytime soon. The chinese are not going away. It seems that those who want to cheat just get a little more clever, or so they think with every barrier that is placed in front of them. Anti dumping tariffs no problem , we'll tranship to a third country and relabel. Antibiotic residues , norproblem , we'll ultrafilter. Shortage of honey in the USA no problem, we'll add a little rice syrup, call it a blend avoid tariffs. Long term, it appears as if the chinese have the upper hand as it looks like all is fair in love and war and selling honey. The US law makers are kinda on our side but the enforcement agencies are really not up to speed.

Irwin: I opened that Delta website. They are selling LA and ELA honey. No white honey for sale. I guess that's why the packs are getting darker on the store shelves.

The only long term solution I see is promoting North American honey. The industry has to support financially these advertisement costs and slowly but surely these efforts will pay off dividends. That or spend efforts promoting North American honey in china. The chinese mistrust their own honey producers. I think they are viewed slighly lower than a used car salesman is in North America. I think they have 5 times the population of the USA so it's big market, that is craving high quality honey. Beemaid the Canadian honey producers coop has made significant inroads selling honey in China. Last I heard they had a 5 year plan and were on track after year 2. That was 2 years ago. Apparently if all went according to plan Canada could not supply enough honey to the chinese market if all went according to the 5 year plan. Any co-op members care to comment about this?

Enough ramblings, gotta get samples for tracheal mites and Nosemae now.

Jean-Marc


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## sqkcrk

jmgi said:


> $1.05/lb.? Wouldn't that mean whoever is importing it is actually paying alot less than that per/lb because shipping costs are included in the $1.05 price too? This just isn't right. John


Why? Why not? What am I missing in that statement?

Jerry, at Wixson Honey Inc says that he is paying $1.65 to $1.70 for honey in buckets or barrels.


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## jmgi

sqkcrk,

I don't know what you mean by your statement, what don't you understand? I was only commenting on irwins post, and how cheap the imported honey can go for. John


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## jmgi

jean-marc, 

I agree that the only way to beat the imports is to advertised our product as 100% U.S. produced honey. I may be wrong, but I don't think I have ever seen a honey commercial on tv in my 53 years. Advertising does work, that's why everywhere you look you see advertising going on. John


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## sqkcrk

jmgi said:


> sqkcrk, what don't you understand?


I didn't understand what wasn't right? Not right that the seller was selling it so cheaply? Not right that the buyer was buying it instead of something more costly? Not right that the producers sold it at a price that the go between could sell it at the cost they sold it at? I couldn't tell what you were calling not right. That's all.


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## sqkcrk

jmgi said:


> ..... I don't think I have ever seen a honey commercial on tv in my 53 years.


I guess you never watched much Jeopardy in your 53 years. There was a time when SueBee was a credited sponsor of that show.

Maybe you've never seen an actual commercial for honey because there isn't that much profit in it. I don't know.


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## irwin harlton

Jean Marc

"Irwin: I opened that Delta website. They are selling LA and ELA honey. No white honey for sale. I guess that's why the packs are getting darker on the store shelves."

Jean Marc
http://www.deltahoney.com/intro.htm
Delta sells acacia (WHITE) honey in 12 oz bears, no price given

Re the bulk canola ,or multi floral for sale that is ELA or LA, canola in Canada is white or better, usually being 15mm, the colour difference ( Chinese canola being ELA)could be like the alfalfa honey from the lower states which is darker than the alfalfa honey further north, I heard the difference in colour is from the soil. Could be the same for the Chinese canola or could be that rice syrup was added .I understand there is no way of detecting this adulteration of honey with rice syrup


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## mnbeekeeper

is any one going to talk actual prices. the honey is in the barrel now, what are we looking at for the coming months prices. are we really going to see 1.75 to 1.85. can we hope for even higher come spring.


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## Trevor Mansell

Last I heard was $1.53 for white honey, that was 2 loads of canloa from N. Dakota.


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## Beeslave

Packers are lowballing prices now with the hopes that the hard working beekeeper will take that price because he doesn't have a choice. Last year was a bad honey production year so many beekeepers need to sell now to survive. If you can hold off selling for a few months the packers will be begging for honey at a better price then they are offering now. I've been hearing many reports of poor crops again, reports of ok crops and very few are reporting great crops.


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## alpha6

As long a packers can get cheap imports they will not be offering too much more then what is on the table now. :ws


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## Mike Snodgrass

Somebody big needs to go retail and put a few packers out of business!


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## jean-marc

Mike:

How are they gonna do that? By selling expensive honey, they won't last. By selling cheaper priced honey, well that won't help the beekeeper. Quality never seems to be an issue.

Jean-Marc


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## sqkcrk

Those darn packers are keeping us hard working beekeepers under their thumb. One of us needs to become one of them and pay beekeepers what beekeepers want to be paid so beekeepers can survive in this modern economy.

Or, if you don't like the price that is being offered you can hold onto your honey until the price gets up where you want it. In the mean time, live off of your wife's income or get another job, I guess.

$1.65 to $1.70 per pound at Wixson Honey Inc in Dundee, NY. Wht, ELA, or A.


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## sqkcrk

Mike Snodgrass said:


> Somebody big needs to go retail and put a few packers out of business!


Somebody big? Do you mean a big packer or a big beekeeper? What makes you think that that would have the effects that you are hoping for? Maybe you should try it.


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## Mike Snodgrass

Ill give it a shot...3 hives equals......hmmmm, how many years??? I guess its probably like folks selling door mats....theres these wholesalers who keep undercutting the local artisans who really make fine doormats and.......


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## sqkcrk

A number of years ago, I was whining to David Hackenberg, one of the largest beekeepers in the east, perhaps, about the price that packers were paying for honey. "What can we do to get a better price?", I asked. "The best thing that you can do to effect the price of honey is to stop keeping bees.", Dave said. Think about it.


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## Roland

Jean-marc. you are right about the quality issue. The only solution is to re-educate the populace on the quality difference of our honey and "funny honey". I try to every chance I get, which is not too often. Maybe this is like pushing drugs, the quickest way to a sale is with free samples( I have been accused of getting people addicted to the "real stuff"). 

It might take an individual that has has a long standing history in the industry to start a beekeeper friendly packing business. Also helpful would be experience with bottling and packaging equipment, and the equipment to support it; which most of us do not have. Of course, access to a national sales network would be really helpful, along with access to individuals that have the ability to effectively deal with the grocery distributors.

On the flip side, how many beekeepers can produce miticide and anti-biotic free honey, or are we looking at a 3 tiered marketing situation? Bottom feeders and their "funny honey" for the industrial accounts, good grade table honey from the average commercial producer filling the super markets, and top end premium varietal honey made under very strict conditions for the Carriage trade. 

Roland
Linden Apiary, Est. 1852


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## suttonbeeman

Roland First off I think it would be hard to pack a really good honey and sell it on a national scale. Here is why....first off you would have to pressure filter which hurts flavor and it is no onger raw.....without this it will granulate. I would be nice if we could get people eating more creamed honey and leave it raw and taste like it should. Second we have very few grocery stores that arent a big chain. They want honey as cheap as they can get it and could care less about taste as long as label says honey. THis is why the small packer like myself and many others have seen our sales increase rapidly. People want GOOD honey but also want LOCAL and Raw! I think our future is with small packers furnishing small markets, famers markets and direct to consumer sales.


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## Roland

Sutton - I agree with most of what you say. Maybe we not only have to educate the populace about the taste of real honey, but that it is NATURAL to have it crystallize, and that if it does not crystallize, some body touched it before you. Turn the "bad" crystallizing into a good. To do that would take a very good salesman(or saleswoman), which I am not.

Then we could get the prices we deserve.(see, I got back on topic...)

Roland


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## irwin harlton

According to an Associated Marketing survey conducted for the National Honey Board in 1997, almost 77% of U.S. households use honey along with other sweeteners and syrups and 45 percent of them consider honey a good value because it is “natural/good for you/better for you than sugar”.

Overall honey has a positive profile with nearly 62% of users “especially liking” it for its taste and flavor, 24% because it is natural and 16% because it is good for you.

Honey consumption in the United States reached a record level of 435,000,000 pound’s for the calendar year 2006. Consumption has expanded nearly 20% over the last 5 years and over 25% over the last decade. Honey’s growth in consumption is a result of this legacy that spans centuries. Honey consumers today as in the past recognize that honey holds a unique position among sweeteners. Honey is consumed not just for its sweetness but for its flavor and its health benefits. Consumers buy products with honey in them at higher prices because the product contains honey.

Taken from http://www.honeysolutions.com/en/news.cfm

Easy to cash in on that word honey, even if what your selling might not be honey


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## Beeslave

Iowa packer offering $1.50 for WH and $1.45 for ELA

WI packer not buying but heard prices from $1.50-$1.73


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## irwin harlton

Wednesday, 15 September 2010 14:42 Written by Analia Manriquez

FROM http://www.apinews.com ALSO published in Sept ABJ 

USA - NEWEST CHINESE HONEY COMPANIES STRATEGY?

Chinese companies have been setting up honey importing companies in the U.S., buying honey packers and seeking to buy American beekeeping operations around the country. If successful, the danger is that they could achieve vertical and horizontal integration in their march to monopoly. This will involve not only the production and processing of honey and other sweeteners, but also pollination of crops. Low wage (legal and illegal) beekeepers could be “imported” for pollination, as well as the honey products from overseas. (Courtesy Ron Phipps, CPNA International)

If I remember correctly Ron Phipps was once a proponent of Chinese imported honey, many years ago.His theory that the Chinese gov't loathes the current Chinese trading practices in honey doesn't hold water.I think all Chinese exports are subsidized, some more than others , honey is probably heavily subsidized, and by ultra-filtering a product that's of little value in China you increase its value greatly somewhere else in the world.This is not a cheap process. The Chinese currency has for a long time been vastly undervalued and manipulated and led to the present one sided trade balance. Their vast investment in the US treasury bonds would lead to one thinking they want to destroy the US , one way or another.These Chinese honey exporters, businessmen, capitalists in a communist country make the wall street bankers look like angels, and a monopoly in the production ,supply and packing of honey as well as the pollination of the crops in the US , well that may not be too far fetched knowing what these guys have up to in the past.


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## suttonbeeman

Looks like a mess on the horizon. I can see it now, putting bees in ALmonds at 1/2 going rate. I think that would cause some BIG problems for them and I dont mean friendly either. From what I've been told that most of the chinese buffets are owned by a few chinese in china and the workers here work for peanuts. If they quit of runoff thier familys in china suffer.....anyone heard of this? Not only has free trade sold out the american worker in the long run it may sell out america.


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## lighto

January 1 2012 Will slow Down ALL Honey Transactions . Having to file a 1099 on ALL transactions over 600 dollars ! They Will Know , Where It came From ! Or stand a chance to be turned into the IRS !!!!
http://activerain.com/blogsview/181...ndor-over-600-that-s-the-new-healthcare-bill-
:shhhh:


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## mnbeekeeper

sold a load of white. to pure sweet. for 1.50


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## JohnLaurino

alpha6 said:


> As long a packers can get cheap imports they will not be offering too much more then what is on the table now. :ws


As far as I can see crops were bad also overseas. In Argentina probably they will not be able to even match the poor figures of 2009 (56,00 tons). Crops in Northeast Brazil were 50-60% off and exports from January to August were 30% lower than 2009. India is flooded in quality issues and Vietnam is almost sold out. I really dont know from where honey could be obtained at cheaper prices. Of course I m talking about real honey and not chinese circumvented syrups. I think market will be bullish until February or March when new crops of the Southern Hemisphere will start to be set.


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## irwin harlton

Argentina honey imports into Canada in 2010 verses 2009,JAN TO JULY, value in Canadian dollars, are up 2762.0 % for a total value of $ 2,165,494 in 2010

http://www.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrkti/tdst/tdo/tdo.php#tag product code is 040900 natural honey

Somebody is stocking up.


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## irwin harlton

If you were a honey buyer AND packer what factors would determine what you would pay for bulk honey this fall?


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## sqkcrk

When I buy honey I buy it from sources that I know. Other beekeepers in my area. If they state a price which they want to get paid, I pay it. If it is way above what other packers in the state are paying then I don't. But there aren't very many packers and not that many sellers that I would buy from. So those factors are kind of constraining.

And then there is the availability of funds, credit and payment plans. all of hose things determine whether I buy honey and who I buy it from.

And just like any other pcker, I don't want to pay any more than I have to.

I guess that makes me one of those Evil Packers that I hear so many beekeepers complaining about.


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## jean-marc

Irwin:

The usual. Price,quality,location,terms and cash flow. Whatever happens I would not want to run out of honey. Is there anything else?

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

A honey packer would never want the producer to know he was low or out of honey and the packer side of the industry would never admit the huge shortage of white honey, no matter how dark that honey on the grocery store shelf gets .It is however the huge industrial or bakery trade market that determines the floor price,this ultimately in my mind determines the price of white honey, or is a great factor in determining the white honey price .


Pretty well all Commodities  have risen up in price, one of the reasons being the growing likelihood of another round of quantitative easing and it's pressures on the U.S. dollar. Honey seems to be lagging behind in price, even with a white honey shortage, a reported high demand on the shelf and a shortage of cheaper imported colored honey in the world marketplace. I guess unemployed people are more interested in the necessities of life. Reports of honey demand vary, from being very good and increasing every year to a reported packer unable to obtain a loan to buy product.The Currency wars have begun, the USA having a less valued dollar may allow it to buy of a lot of cheap world assets, honey included. The Canadian dollar is almost at par with the American, Canadian exports are going to get hurt. If the American economy catches a cold we in Canada quite often get pneumonia and dam near die......we are that dependent on US trade and its huge market..... and I think your economy has more than a bad cold.

As Gold rises higher and moves into the final phase where more funds,speculators and the public become buyers of this currency all commodities will rise, including that liquid Gold, Honey.


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## wolfpenfarm

You might start thinking more outside the box if gold prices keep going up and markets collapse. When money is worthless and gold is unattainable, then we po folks gotta rely on other means to get supples. One of which whiskey cigarettes and honey being some of those items that will hold more value than currency. Especially when you don't have food stuffs. 

I myself make cheese, and store it, it only gets better with age you know, produce my own milk, my own eggs, food, honey, ect. I can produce my own whiskey if need be and i can and will grow tobacco. All of these will be items that will be of value. 

The thing is the rich will always be able to buy fwhat they want. The poor won't. Remember in Germany a wheelbarrow full of money couldn't buy a loaf of bread in ww2. But i'd bet you could trade a pound of honey for 2 or 3 loaves and a whole lot more.


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## jim lyon

Gee you guys are so ummmmm optimistic or is it realistic?


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## irwin harlton

Well somewhere between these two definitions lies the future

optimistic--disposed to take a favorable view of events or conditions and to expect the most favorable outcome. 

realistic--interested in, concerned with, or based on what is real or practical: a realistic estimate of costs; a realistic planner. realistic - aware or expressing awareness of things as they really are; "a realistic description"; "a realistic view of the possibilities"; "a realistic appraisal of our chances"

Reality is current bulk prices for white honey are 1.50-1.55 and maybe 1.60 if you can find that buyer.Is that a good price?
Is your cup half full or half empty, AND whats it going to cost to produce that lb of honey next year?
I see honey on the shelf for 4.99 for 375 grams......the store keeper combined with the middle man are making more than the producer

Last time the price soared , and later dropped ,producers were told the price was too high on the shelf and there was buyer resistance.There was also at that time a lot less free advertising or publicity on the industry and its problems and a lot more foreign and cheaper honey kicking around.
Latest rumor is one of Canada's largest private company packers is building a honey plant in China,Canadian and other raw product will be shipped to China and packed , this product will return to Canada.......no doubt after a a little Chinese honey has been added to increase the profit of this large multifaceted corporation.....huge profits are possible if you how and where. Its all about the bottom line , profit ..... as a producer of honey are you making enough at current realistic prices


Costco is just one of a few companies currently offering survival food packages


http://www.shtfplan.com/emergency-p...costco-offers-survival-food-packages_10062010


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## ryan

Just a comment on honey prices and the effect the dollar has as it changes value.

US based packers are less able to buy honey on the world market when the value of the dollar falls. If the dollar becomes very weak honey packers will have very little buying power outside US borders. A stronger dollar will lead to lower a lower price paid for domestic honey. A strong dollar makes it cheeper to buy foreign goods, like honey. 

Before you pray for a weak dollar remember you will also get higher crude oil prices. Also china has effectively locked their exchange rate to the US dollar, so China is almost in the same price boat as the US producers.

peace


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## The Honey Householder

As the largest Honey producer in Ohio. The honey makert is very strong. I produced almost 81 ton this year. Which is up from last year 49 ton. I have sold some in the barrel for $1.75, but most has been sold for $1.85-2.50. I've moved more honey this year then I produced last year.
I may be selling for to cheap????? Sorry gave up on packer years ago. The beekeepers does a better job on sales. :thumbsup:
Only wish I had my honey I sold 5 years ago for $.89 a lb.:doh:


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## sqkcrk

So, HH, maybe you should bank some portion of each years crop to sell in the future when th price is really up there. If you had 10% of the honey that you sold for .89 and you sold it now, would you profit that much more? Or would it have darkened in the barrel so it would have lost its' price anyway?


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## soupcan

Kinda looks like 2 loads will be a going to Ohio next spring.


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## Keith Jarrett

The Honey Householder said:


> As the largest Honey producer in Ohio. I produced almost 81 ton this year. :


True stress releif.


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## The Honey Householder

soupcan said:


> Kinda looks like 2 loads will be a going to Ohio next spring.


I didn't think anyone held honey till spring any more. 3 years ago I was sitting on 30 ton in March. But know I wholesale in 5 different states, and sell out early. The beekeeper makes it worth producing. My hat goes off to those beekeeper that sell tons of honey, and make it worth producing.:thumbsup:


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## themrbee

I think he means loads of bees


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## John Smith

Honey will always be worth as little or as much as the beekeeper himself values it. After all, he had it first and he has the last say on whether he will sell it or not.

As long as the honey producer considers it of little value, that is how much he will accept for it. Why should anyone offer him more?

Those who retail their own honey make two lots of wages, maybe even three, out of the same barrell of honey. In times like these, when honey is scarce, it is worth considering.

Inflation is the evil that drives our society to the brink of extintion at times. Each individual has to fight to keep his own product in step with the falling value of the currency. I quit valuing my honey by the dollar. All of the dollars are far too elastic these days. Honey is stable, and is its own money, it never changes. I compare my honey to a basket of other real commodoties to see how much my honey should fetch.

Those who don't want to pay my price are welcome to seek their supply elsewhere. My honey didn't lose half its value in the recent crash. It is still the same number of drums as it was was before. The dollar is a bad numeraire. 

Keep up with inflation ...............or perish.

Cheers,

JohnS


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## irwin harlton

A good indicator of the current state of the US economy can be found here
http://www.ceridianindex.com

As honey producers are also traders when they convert honey to money,( and the exchange rate is quite often not good ) some interesting comments on trading can be found at

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/ see remarks by Ben Davies,
CEO, Hinde Capital, London


No, there is nothing certain about economic predictions. Donald Rumsfeld, the former U.S. defense secretary, unwittingly declared it so at a NATO press conference in 2002, when he responded to a question on intelligence gathering:

"It's not the certainties that make life interesting; it's the uncertainties. There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the things we don't know we don't know."


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## sqkcrk

So what is the outlook on bulk honey prices? That's the Thread Topic. Or have we beaten that horse to death?


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## jean-marc

To keep it short and sweet just for you MarK, it goes something ike this. The only thing that I ever heard from a packer is the price is going down or soon will because, argentine honey, chinese honey, bumper crop, currency devaluations. You can choose any one of these or multiples. You've heard it all before. If you are the beekeeper the price is going up because short crop, no inventory, poor crop in argentina , aqntidumping duties about to take effect etc.. 

Me thinks that sums it up about right.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

The best way to rob a bank is to own one and the best way to buy honey is to steal it at current low prices.If your a packer, never divulge your out of honey or even close, sellers will take advantage of your situation , except the Chinese ,. who would probably drop their price further, hoping to increase volume
There is either a shortage of white honey, and probably colored honey, or the US economy is in such poor shape that it will not matter what honey sells for.(*HYPERINFLATION?) The sinking ship will take everyone down with it except the rats that caused it, they will be living somewhere else in luxury.Hate to be so pessimistic
There has been supposedly a serious dent made in the amount of transshipped Chinese honey arriving in the US, but then there could and probably are other methods of it's arrival into the country as well as Canada. Asia produces 38% of the total world supply of honey and the next method of delivery will probably be a direct pipeline to the buyers,consumers thereby avoiding messy drums and any traceability, (packaged honey).Believe me, You cannot stop these people , they are like varroa, only profit motivated and of course the market is there for this product, the price is always right just like wall mart
The unknown factors influencing the upward price movement is how much inventory is in packers hands and how much shelf price resistance there is ,tied with the inflation factor(Economy) and how much honey the packers will get at the current prices.One buyer in Canada has already increased the price 5 cents ,to 1.55, the exchange rate didn't change a whole lot , 3% down for the Canadian dollar. Is somebody getting a little short of supply?and trying to see how much they can get at this particular price.Me thinks very little honey ., if any was moving in Canada at 1.50/lb Canadian 

Looking at the second chart, history of honey prices at http://www.apinews.com/en/contents/argentina-honey-price

In the later part of 2009 some honey seller or sellers got a lower than market price or offer or was this just offers that didn't get any takers, or somebody got some really cheap honey????


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## sqkcrk

"your" is the posessive tense of "you". "you're" is the contraction of you are". Seems like you were having trouble w/ that in your opening sentence. I just thought I'd point that out since you are doing corrections of your posts.

Those **** packers. Who do they think thay are anyway? Only paying the lowest price that sellers will take. Why don't they get right w/ God and pay us what we want? Shame on them for their profit motive business practices. They should be more like the rest of us.


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## Mike Snodgrass

"Those **** packers. Who do they think thay are anyway? Only paying the lowest price that sellers will take. Why don't they get right w/ God and pay us what we want? Shame on them for their profit motive business practices. They should be more like the rest of us.[/QUOTE]

LOL!!!!!!:applause::applause::applause:

Then again, honey doesnt go bad, so just sit on it till it hits your price. How much patience do you all have?


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## sqkcrk

jean-marc said:


> Me thinks that sums it up about right.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Then that's the market and you have to fit into it as best you can. And the motives of the packer are no less pure than the motives of the producer.

Maybe I'm not listening w/ the correct ears, but it seems like this Thread is doing alot of gripping about how evil packers are for doing what they do. They aren't in the business of buying and selling honey to keep you or I in business or in a new Prius. They are in business to make profit. They chose to do that by buying and selling honey. We all know that margin of profit of doing that, so where I don't think we should praise them for doing so, I do think we should thank them for doing so. Or we should become packers ourselves.

Take the price offered or don't, it's your choice. You can always sell out and do something more lucrative. Your choice. No one said that any of us had to be beekeepers.


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## sqkcrk

Mike Snodgrass said:


> Then again, honey doesnt go bad, so just sit on it till it hits your price. How much patience do you all have?


One has to be careful when doing that. Technically it may not go bad, but it will become darker and of less value. But there are people who are in the position to do just what you suggest. You're probably one of them.


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## queenking

maybe a bunch of us beekeepers should get to gether and build our own packing house and that way we can controll the price of honey.


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## sqkcrk

There is probably a reason why this hasn't worked all that well in the past. W/ some exceptions. The current system seems to be working just fine, otherwise something different would have replaced it.


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## The Honey Householder

Mike Snodgrass said:


> "Those **** packers. Who do they think thay are anyway? Only paying the lowest price that sellers will take. Why don't they get right w/ God and pay us what we want? Shame on them for their profit motive business practices. They should be more like the rest of us.


LOL!!!!!!:applause::applause::applause:

Then again, honey doesnt go bad, so just sit on it till it hits your price. How much patience do you all have?[/QUOTE]

To most this is there job. You can only go without a check for so long. The packers know that, beekeepers are more understanding which is why I sell all my honey to them. Its becoming that the producer has to packer there own honey and sell it too. 
Looking to have the packing plant up by next season.:thumbsup:


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## sqkcrk

I believe that this is the way to go, but, when we are all packing and selling honey, will we be any better off? Will we pay any more for honey than the packers will? I had to buy 2/3 of the honey I sold last year in order to keep my customers in honey. It hurt. I don't know if I will ever recover that investment, but if I do, it will take quite a long time. I happened to have the money, but I don't see how I can do that again. I certainly wouldn't take a loan to buy that amount of honey.


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## The Honey Householder

Mark you are starting to sound like a packer. I have customer I sell to in the the bucket for $1.85 by the truck load. They tell me they are having problem making it at that price. Come to find out they have most of it sold before they get home for $2.50. WOW $.65 a lb (26% mark up) for just hauling honey. It's the producer that gets the smallest %. Good thing there was a producer that produced 2/3 of your honey or you would have lost all those customers. 
Don't get me wrong the producer is making a living now, but for many years wasn't. It's all got to balance or it won't work.


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## jim lyon

I spent a few years as a packer/producer I have to say that servicing big warehouse accounts is a nightmare I don't care to relive. There is a reason that everything in the grocery business nowdays is fewer and bigger (I call it the Wal-Martization of America). Buyers want favorable terms, they want you to pay for shelf space, they want generous and aggressive promotion allotments, they want low minimum purchases, short lead times, and if anything starts granulating on the shelf just expect to get a bill for it. After all that they will drop you in a heartbeat when someone offers them something better. With honey prices as high as they are right now I can't imagine why anyone would want to make a large investment in packing facilities unless they felt they had done enough research to have a really solid business plan.When you move up from small packer producer into the world of high volume you begin to understand the real world that the large packer lives in. Say what you will about large packers they need to be shrewd businesspersons to be able to deal with the Wal Marts of the world. Producers need to accept the fact that they exist to make a profit for themselves not to insure that the producer gets what he feels he is entitled to.


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## Keith Jarrett

The Honey Householder said:


> How much patience do you all have:


Lots.... Almond pollination income can pay the light bill.


Jimmy, you still have those 400 sitting over in the corner collecting dust?


----------



## jim lyon

Jimmy, you still have those 400 sitting over in the corner collecting dust? [/QUOTE]

Getting real tired of cleaning around them, is there really a market for that stuff nowadays?


----------



## Countryboy

Beekeepers complaining about the price packers are paying reminds me of grain farmers who complain about the price the local feed mill is paying.

Do you know what I don't hear? I don't hear the beekeeping equivalent to the complaining of a local farmer - he contracted too much grain out, and with the recent spike in commodity prices, he lost out on about a million dollars. Then again, he doesn't sell to the local feed mill either.

If the only buyer you deal with is the local feed mill/packer, then don't complain that all you can get is local feed mill/packer prices.


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## irwin harlton

Thank you Jim Lyon for sharing your experience and wisdom.

"There is a reason that everything in the grocery business nowdays is fewer and bigger (I call it the Wal-Martization of America). " 
No doubt the same reasons why there are less commercial beekeepers and honey packers around.We do sell some packed honey and are familiar with the market and most of its positives and negatives.Our honey is custom packed by some one else and we have no desire to spend alot of money to get any bigger in this market.Yes I don't mind admitting this industry needs honey packers, the more the better.
That's one of the problems , we don't seem to have enough competition in this end of the market


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## Beeslave

So what is the going price that packers are paying? I keep hearing alot of talk of what it might be and what it should be. I'm hearing reports of large bee losses in South America/Argentina and the drought they are having.

Will we see that $2.00 lb in a drum come spring?

I have a buyer for the rest of my honey at $1.65 but with the calls I have been recieving from people that want honey I'm hesitant to sell at that price.


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## The Honey Householder

Had a packer call me last week $1.60 for Wht/ELA. Way to low on price, and wanted 90 day credit. Come on they want my honey for nothing and want me to fund it too. I didn't sell anything for that low last year. Why would I loan honey out when the banks won't loan me MONEY.


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## Beeslave

Prices being offered are still going up.


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## sqkcrk

What are they? The prices offered that are going up?


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## jean-marc

Prices in Western Canada are still at $1.50 Cdn/lb. Our currencies are pretty close to being at par. 3 years of short crops of white honey on the world market and the prices haven't really moved up in 30 months or so. Weird.

Jean-Marc


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## sqkcrk

Does that tell you anything about the value of honey of differing colors? Maybe honey is honey.


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## jean-marc

Honey is western canada is white. A friend sold some brood nest honey (much darker) at$1.35/lb. Won't sell the white honey at $1.50. I sold mine at that price.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

Argentina prices take a jump

http://www.apinews.com/es/contenido/argentina-precio-de-la-miel


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## jim lyon

Interesting it looks like about a 4% increase. If my rudimentary calculations are correct it translates to around $1.15 per lb. The most recent honey report shows Argentine white coming into the US in the $1.48 to $1.58 range, seems like a big margin for shipping and other costs. Maybe someone who understands this better can either correct my math or explain whats going on.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf 
And as long as we are trying to make sense of stuff check out the Indonesian white honey imports, looks like it is coming in at about .90 per lb. whaddup?


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## jean-marc

No white honey produced in Indonesia. That´s what you all call Chinese transhipped/relabelled honey.
The argentinian brokers have always made a very nice margin of profit for their efforts. Some also finance the beekeepers by loaning them operating money. Again they seem to reward themselves generously for their efforts.

Jean-Marc


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## jim lyon

Gosh Jean Marc thats not what the report reads :scratch: 14 million lbs. of white honey @.87 0 lbs. of ELA and only 3 million lbs. of la @.83 (again excuse my rudimentary math). Must have been islands full of sweet clover over there last year. Wait a minute Indonesia isnt that the same country that suffered the devastating tsunami a few years back and spent the better part of a week deciding whether they should allow western nations to bring in humanitarian aid? Oooops sorry t:


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## irwin harlton

THE Chinese route of transshipped honey


http://www.downtoearth.org.in/node/1953

I really wonder if True Source Honey is going to solve anything or help us get rid of this plague, kinda like having the inmates running the jail


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## irwin harlton

Some interesting stats , info at http://panjiva.com/trends/honey

Checking out the suppliers, every kind of honey,blend, syrup and combination of, and suppliers of honey melons here, exported to USA and Canada,more info available for a price, probably well worth the investment.The paper trail of imported honey and syrup is quite easily followed .... until after it clears customs then its lost.The original importer is not necessarily the final customer
Noticed some shipments are of "not marked " drums,could this be so the final buyer ,packer wouldn't be suspicious of the products actual origin and if it passed the buyers stringent tests it would be marketed


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## jim lyon

Interesting sites lots of good info. I have talked to a couple of the packers that are involved in True Source and I am convinced that they are sincere. I think, in fairness, we have to look at it from their perspective. It would have to be really frustrating to compete for shelf space or major bulk accounts with the unethical buyers of some of this "honey". Without something like this its not exactly a level playing field if you are trying to offer a quality product.


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## irwin harlton

I would like to agree with you Jim that the packers involved in True Source are sincere and would like to get this " honey" out of the market and not have to compete with it, on the shelf or in the bulk industrial market .However I have some thoughts about this From the packers perspective.
Seems once the "honey" is confirmed adulterated or contaminated, which usually occurs in the perspective buyers lab ,honey is being held but not paid for , it is returned to the seller, broker and hence moved to the next buyer,ultimately ending up in the market.
In my opinion the eventual buyer gets a real cheap "inferior " product which he can blend out.Now he can market this product slightly below the competitions price.Nothing like good competition to keep the prices low 
Until we have a clear definition of honey from the US gov't , I see no end to the schemes from the suppliers of an inferior product , those who sell it and those who pass it to the next guy.Just because you didn't pack it doesn't mean you haven't been successful.Large supply usually means low price
The are many ways of manipulating a market,or holding the price down,allowing this "honey" to enter the market is one I'd say.
I personally think the majority of this "honey" ends up in the huge industrial market, this I believe forms a base price on all honey shelf or bakery
A packer I know packs a lot of industrial honey, it is all his own honey and it is white honey.He had a hard time at first convincing his customers it was honey, His sales have grown every year,he gets as much and usually more money for his product in this market


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## jim lyon

Guess we will just have to agree to respectfully disagree on this one. I dont think its fair to lump them all together as being part of a larger conspiracy to drive prices down. If you are in that business you are essentially faced with two options. 
A Compete in this race to the bottom or 
B Stand up and say enough already, I want a level playing field and I want my customers to get real honey.
Maybe I am just naive but I really want to believe that not everybody is in group A or if they are they want out.


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## Beeslave

2 WI packers presently only offering $1.45 for LA. One stated he just bought a load of WH out of the Dakotas for $1.50.

Talk of small lot sales of 1-5 drums for $1.75-$2.00


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## mnbeekeeper

we have had offers for 1.55. from 3 different packers.


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## Beeslave

What color and moisture content is that $1.55 for?


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## mnbeekeeper

white. our honey is granulated now but i think they would take anything under 17 %.


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## The Honey Householder

I'm getting to the bottom of my barrels. I have less then 30 left. Been selling for $1.75. Just bumped to $1.80, because of spring package prices. Is there many loads still out there. Hear of a midwest packer looking for honey outside of the midwest area. Sounds to me the price is to high in the midwest or there isn't much left.


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## Beeslave

The Honey Householder said:


> Hear of a midwest packer looking for honey outside of the midwest area. Sounds to me the price is to high in the midwest or there isn't much left.


This years crop around here was darker and I've heard of higher moisture readings than normal(is there such a thing as normal in beekeeping).


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## The Honey Householder

Beeslave said:


> This years crop around here was darker and I've heard of higher moisture readings than normal(is there such a thing in beekeeping).


I sold 4 barrels of melter and 6 barrels of clover honey to a small packer. Called to see where my check was, they was telling me the honey was testing at 20% check barrels in house from the same production day and check out at 17%. Called back and they said the melter honey tested at 20% too. Wouldn't you know it took almost 90 days to get paid. Really high moisture or low bank account.:no: 

BEEKEEPER OR BANKER

If I could just get a package suppier to front me 800 packages for 90 days until the honey come in. And OH YA I only want to pay you 1/2 of what your packages are worth.


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## Ian

Presidents choice or No Name packed honey on the shelves of Super Store are selling for about $6 per kg creamed white honey. Billy Bee is selling for $10 per kg creamed white honey. Thats $4 difference in retail price. They are both blended off shore honey, how can No Name sell for that price


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## jean-marc

Honey at $1.5/lb, so that's $3.30/kg of honey. Another 2% for shrinkage, that's $3.37 per kg of honey. They have another 70 cents or so for the jar and label. I'm not current on these prices, but they pack in PET and not glass , so a little cheaper. Could be a little more or a little less. We are around $4.10/kg. President's Choice is their store brand and you can bet that the packer didn't make any money at it or very little. Very small margin here. I dunno for sure but I doubt much less than 35 cents and really doubt 60 cents per kg. So maybe $4.6/kg. Again could be a bit more, I don't think much less. Throw in some freight to the central warehouse and then to the individual stores. We are getting close to $5.00/kg. Superstore might have $1.00 profit in it per kg. They are not making big $$ selling honey. They probably have a slighly better margin on the BeeMaid honey, but some people don't want to shell out $10/kg for creamed honey. For those people they have the $6.00/kg option. So from the superstore point of view they get some honey money from the $ conscious consummers.

Jean-Marc


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## Countryboy

_Another 2% for shrinkage, that's $3.37 per kg of honey._

What is shrinkage? I'm not familiar with that term in regards to honey. An extra 2% adds up.


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## jean-marc

It's when honey is processed and goes from the barrel into the jar. Packers loose between 1 and 2 percent. So if 650 pounds of honey are in the drum you won't end up with 650 one pound jars, you'll end up with maybe 635 or 640. The heat from processing evaporates some of the moisture from the honey and poof it's gone, shrinkage.

Jean-Marc


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## StevenG

There is also that thin layer of honey left behind on the walls of the tanks, piping, etc etc... that gets washed down the drain when you clean up. It adds up over a season or two.
Regards,
Steven


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## Countryboy

How does losing 2% of the honey due to evaporation increase the value of the honey you sold by 2%? If I sell my honey for $3.30/kg, how does the packer losing 2% due to evaporation pay me $3.37/kg as in your example?

What is to prevent packers from adding 2% water to offset the 2% evaporative loss? I highly doubt a packer is going to sell 14% moisture honey when they can add a little water to turn it into 18% honey...and the water they add to get the 18% gets sold at honey prices.


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## jean-marc

That 2% loss doesn't add value to the honey, it adds cost of it. The packer doesn't pay you that money but he has to offset it or at least account for it, then pass it on the the consummer. The point I was trying to make to Ian was that even at $6/kg, there is still a little bit of profit there somewhere for somebody. There is not a lot of profit for the packer nor the store. Why they do it, I speculated on, but only they can answer that for sure.

Nothing prevents a packer from adding water. I don't think they do it, it's probably not that easy in the sense that to blend it into the honey they would have to circulate/agitate that for some time so that later the water doesn't float up and cause fermentation issues. How long would he have to agitate the honey/water, I don't know, but long enough to slow down the whole production. That cost with the associated risk of future fermentation is probably higher than packing low moisture honey.

Packers probably won't pack 14% honey, but they'll likely blend it with high moisture honey.
This is easier to do on a physical level. 19% honey is going to float on 14% honey, but will not float as much as water will on 14% honey. So it's easier to blend

Jean-Marc


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## John Smith

The word for this loss is: ULLAGE.

It is used mostly in the wine making industry, but it covers a multitude of ways one always ends up with less in the bottles than he bought in the drum.

When you think about it, there must be a million ways we lose honey this way, and a forklift tine piercing a drum can do you a lot of damage. The two percent loss is only an estimated average. Don't buy too many leaking drums or that numeral might rise!

Cheers,

JohnS


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## BMAC

Yeah so whats with the deal with these packers wanting to pay 30 days out? One called me for a few barrels. Then wanted 10 barrels. Then wanted me to drop off and wait 30 days for a check in the mail. I said THANKS but gee I can't make other folks wait 30 or 90 days for my payments either. Seems to me they want to sell my honey and then pay me for it.


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## jim lyon

Net 30 is pretty standard among the major packers except for Dutch Gold which, I think, is net 15 and then of course theres Sue but lets not get started on that. Suppose a seller can hold out for whatever terms they feel are fair.


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## irwin harlton

Honey Market Update at Skamberg http://skamberg.com/

prices in Argentina http://www.apinews.com/en/contents/argentina-honey-price


Saturday, 15 January 2011 16:22 Posted by Juan Carlos Hidalgo

In the 8 th Region of Chile (Area where I work). yields are a mess, less than 20% of normal. No records in the last 10 years of harvest worse. The other regions of Chile are not much better. We believe that there will be a great loss of bees from starvation and looting from February onwards, because beekeepers, mostly small, have no funds to feed the bees.
Juan Carlos Hidalgo compliments

taken from the above web site.......could prices be on the move?


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## irwin harlton

ABJ Extra
-INTERNATIONAL HONEY MARKET REPORT
CURTAILMENT OF CIRCUMVENTION

by RON PHIPPS

http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d&id=7ddb761492&e=5229dfa01a



subscribe here http://us1.forward-to-friend.com/forward?u=5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d&id=7ddb761492&e=5229dfa01a


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## frazzledfozzle

30 days is nothing here in New Zealand it's standard to have payments spread out over 6-9 months!

Frazz


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## irwin harlton

Feb 2011 Market update http://skamberg.com/honey.htm


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## The Honey Householder

Sold the last of 2010 crop for $1.95 but was only a 7 ton lot. Just wondering If I should have held longer. Spring weather has been cold and looks to be the wettest April since the 40's. With the price of bees up 10-15% this year just wondering what honey is going to be this year. Heard of some package shippment coming out of the south short this year because of colder weather. Is there much of 2010 crop left.


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## swarm_trapper

just sold a load of ela-white orange honey for 1.70 a lb.


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## jim lyon

ST Sounds about right to me from the input I am getting. HH has his own marketing thing going up there that always nets him .20 a lb. Or so more. One of the perks , I guess, to being one of the few major suppliers in the area. I don't really think spring weather or rising bee prices directly affects the price, but it is certainly an early indicator of where domestic production might be headed. Definitely aren't any indications that there is any market forces out there to move the price down as long as one dosent try to market their whole crop in mid summer just as new crop honey is moving into the marketplace.


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## irwin harlton

from 

http://www.honey.com/nhb/industry/industry-statistics/

2011	JAN	FEB	MAR	APR	MAY	JUN	JUL	AUG	SEP	OCT	NOV	DEC
CANADA	$1.71	$1.73 
MEXICO	$1.29	$1.19 
ARGENTINA	$1.45	$1.47 
CHINA	$1.50	$1.52 
Average	$1.49	$1.48 

Odem is reportedly paying 1.62 to the keeper, payment of 60 days....so the keeper takes the risk


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## irwin harlton

Anyone know the reasons for the softing, lowering of the price?


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## jean-marc

What softening?

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

Perhaps I was miss reading some prices, I thought prices had dropped off a bit.Canadian buyers are at 1.60 plus?
Price has dropped in Argentina, this may be a temporary buyer ploy as the bulk of the honey comes on the market
http://www.apinews.com/es/contenido/argentina-precio-de-la-miel


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## JohnLaurino

Crops in South America are much better than expected. Combined, Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay may have produced 35,000 tons or even 40,000 more than last year. Also, when summer approaches in the Nothern Hemisphere packers tend to concentrate on the domestic crops in USA, Canada, Europe, etc. Prices are softening indeed and sales are very slow for June/July shipments. Most buyers are now looking for 4th quarter deliveries.


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## jim lyon

That may well be true John but interest is still pretty high among packers and inventories are getting pretty low. Crop prospects in much of the prime white honey production area of the US isnt looking that great. While moisture is pretty good cool temps have really delayed any main flow. Additionally it looks to be a real down year for clover bloom in much of the Dakotas and alfalfa and pastures are rapidly disappearing because of the record grain prices. Additionally it dosent appear that California (too wet), Texas (too dry) or Florida are reporting any bumper crops. Personally I will be pretty surprised if there is enough additonal production in the southern hemisphere to really make much of a difference in the overall world honey price.


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## sqkcrk

I know this is small potatoes, but, back in March I sold 40 buckets of honey for $150.00 each. the same guy wanted 10 more a cpl weeks ago. Gotta hold it for my own outlets, until the next crop comes in.


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## The Honey Householder

Price isn't soften here. Was selling 2 gal. buckets for $75 until I sold out a few weeks back. Crop is going to be short or late this year, because of the last 2 months of rain.


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## irwin harlton

Honey is the latest grocery item to go up in price. The National Honey Board reports a pound of the sweet, sticky liquid now costs $5.22, and a supply shortage is partly to blame. from http://www.apinews.com/


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## dgl1948

Not sure how it is where you are Irwin but here in Southeast Sask there is not going to be much honey. We are lucky if the bees get to fly two days in seven. On top,of that there is not going to be any of those yellow fields. Nobody could get on the land to seed.


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## irwin harlton

I think the whole mid US and the prairies are awash with too much moisture,We here at Souris,MB , have had over 12" of rain in a period of 4 weeks.Less than 50% of all acreage is seeded, volunteer canola, last years seed, is blooming where not sprayed but no bee weather to get it,cloudy, windy ,rainy, no heat not much sunshine.But one must never give up, if conditions change and they often do, a good crop may be had.This weather has been a disaster for most farmers and with the water table being so high, they are already worried about next year


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## hpm08161947

Sold all the honey we could make in 5 gal buckets for $150 each. Wish we could make more honey in these parts, but the price does not appear to be softening.


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## irwin harlton

During the period of March 1-June 5, 2011 62.7 million pounds of honey were shipped from India to the United States. The previous highest average 3-month quantity from China was 19 million pounds. Such an unimpeded colossal flow of honey from India portends catastrophic consequences to American beekeepers and in the final analysis to American Agriculture, which depends for one-third of its food supply on pollination by the bees.

from ABJ Extra - Newsletter June 22, 2011 #2-- Tsunami of Indian (Chinese) Honey Arriving on U.S. Shores

Perhaps this has held the price of white honey down,No doubt this will effect new crop offerings?


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## irwin harlton

Demand continues to outweigh supply for honey in the world market. Prices remain very strong for all the available honey. 

http://skamberg.com/honey.htm


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## Ted Kretschmann

Souix is hurting for honey. The midwest is awash in water. So the overall crop in the USA may be the worst ever. Supply and demand will keep prices up. But, there is the parity factor to consider....Along time ago, when the Chicago mercantile exchange--Commodity markets---were formed. Commodities were pegged to the cost of an ounce of gold. So many bushels of wheat or corn equals to an ounce of gold. Well, while honey is not traded in the pits as a commodity. It is pegged to the cost of an ounce of gold...Gold trades for around 1500 dollars an ounce and honey depending on color and flora 1100 to 1400 dollars a drum. Part of the high price is due to parity and a deflated dollar. But as long as gold stays up, honey will do the same. TED


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## sqkcrk

And then there is the Trans-shipped Chinese Honey coming from India.


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## Ted Kretschmann

How long that will last Mark, is anybody's guess. China is having problems with weather also. So their crop will be down too. TED


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## Roland

Ted - I do not think bad weather will effect China's ability to make "honey". Funny how no matter what country (India, Turkey, Vietnam, Indonesia....) it usually is in green drums and tastes about the same?(Yuck!!!)

Crazy Roland


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## Tom G. Laury

The American Honey Producers Association and Richard Adee are fighting hard to end this transshipment and duty avoidance activity. Please support the AHPA.


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## JohnLaurino

If anyone is using the twetter, I m listed as @johnlaurino and would appreciate exchange market info there too/


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## Ted Kretschmann

Roland, I want some good honey, not yuck chinese honey to eat. When will those basswood sections be ready for me to order?? We produce good quality honey here in Alabama for Souix but I always like to try someone elses with different floral sources from around the USA. TED


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## Roland

I'm on it.... with a little luck,,,, and good weather.(Large leaf Linden is still 10-14 days out) 

Crazy Roland


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## BMAC

The problem is the good weather. I wish I was on it. Seems like a little trickle but the coll wet weather isnt doing much.


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## irwin harlton

It would be interesting to know the actual buyers,packers of the 63.7 million lbs of imported transhipped honey.Where did it end up in the market ?
No doubt most of it went into the large industrial market and did not affect the wholesale,supplier price of packaged honey,..... or are my simple assumptions wrong again?


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## jean-marc

I believe that the US consummes 300 million or so pounds of honey per year. So 63.7 million pounds of transhipped honey gets dropped and the US shores , roughly 20% of the yearly usage and you think it won't affect the market? What do you meanby "supplier price of packaged honey"? Is not all honey whether it be in a pound container destined for a store shelf or in a 60 pound bucket destined for a baker packaged? Seems that the price offered to stores does not go down until the packers have made a few bucks for themselves. This happens when beekeeper prices have dropped for awhile, say somewhere betwenn 6 and 12 months. Then some packer wants a bigger piece of the pie and cuts his price a little bit in hopes to lure new accounts. Then the packers if they wish to stay competitive match prices. It's a little tricky if you are paying $1.50/pound and the neighbour got his for say 80 cents/pound. Makes it hard to compete.

Who's to say where that honey went? Several individuals I would think unless the one firm has very deep pockets. I would think that they then peddle it to other packers. Make a few pennies per pound perhaps even 2 or 3 nickels per pound. Then who knows what each individual packer will do with it? The store packs have gotten a lot darker in the past few years.

Jean-Marc


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## Roland

Look in the store at the price of the honey compared to it's tint. I believe you will find the cheapest honey will be very clear, but with a brown hue, whereas the more expensive honey will have more of a golden hue, and not so transparent. Then buy some of the cheap stuff and tell me it tastes like any honey you know. 

Crazy Roland


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## irwin harlton

"supplier price of packaged honey"= prices offered to producers

Prices offered did not drop or did they, when this Chinese honey entered the market


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## Roland

I believe the phrase "Two Tiered honey Prices" indicates that Funny honey and real honey are not priced the same. The buyer calling you is looking for real honey, and will be expecting to pay the higher price. I can not say if the price of real honey fell when funny honey entered the market, but if funny honey was removed from the market, I would imagine that the funny honey buyers would create a greater demand for real honey and drive up the price. Read the ABJ report by Richard Adee, and note at what price the funny honey enters this country.

Crazy Roland


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## irwin harlton

http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf

Number XXXI - #6 Issued Monthly July 14, 2011


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## irwin harlton

Honey Hot Line 763 658 4193


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## sqkcrk

irwin harlton said:


> http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf


I would say that the reports on NY are spot on. Especially concerning my region. I wonder where they get their info from?

I sure hope things improve here or we will bring the state average down.

Thanks for posting this Irwin.


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## suttonbeeman

Bees in wisconsin making a nice crop and also heard from a friend in minnesota who is making a good crop. Michigan has also made some honey but overall looks like a average crop at best after north dakota monsoon unless things change quick. Biggest downward push on price is honey I saw in sams club.....5 pound jar for 11.50 or 2.10 a pound retail IN THE STORE. Labeled as white us grade a honey. (wasnt white) NO mention of country of orgin other than us. three guesses whos label is on the bottle.....You guessed it SUE BEE!!! If I was a sue member I would be raising holly u know what. I was offered 1.90 a pound two weeks ago and turned it down as I am selling honey in July like I usually sell in september. Its a shame a beekeepers cooperative is selling honey that cheap...Ill be willing to bet the farm its got some of that honey from across the water in it or someone is loosing money! Sue Members need to be asking some serious questions!!!! AND NOT BELEIVE ALL THEY ARE TOLD EITHER!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## The Honey Householder

Rick, been selling for $2.05 in the barrel and still can't produce enough. There is those out there that like there funny honey and many that DON'T.:kn:


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## suttonbeeman

Im at 2.00 in barrell and 2.25 in their bucket... I'm going up about a quarter as im selling honey now like its september, july is always slow for me,,,,never seen anything like this. Maybe good thing big companies keep selling crap the consumer is learning and not stupid.


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## Wee3Bees Apiary

We are at $140 for a five gallon bucket (our bucket that they return). We were at $125 until late Spring (but we told everyone back in January of this year we were going to $140). That is $2.33 per pound in bulk. However, we mostly try to sell wholesale to store so $2.33 per pound is really cheap.


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## sqkcrk

I sell 5 gallons of honey for $180.00 in Totes. Unstrained buckets, at my house go for $150.00 each. The totes I get back to reuse. The buckets not.


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## Tim Stewart

I get $200 for honey in 5 gallons if your buying only a few at a time, wholesale to markets $5 a pound in inverted plastic jars.... But this is good honey, light amber/amber holly honey from acidic soil... its good stuff


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## Ted Kretschmann

The dollar is in a deflationary downward spiral. Congress can not get its act together. Thus precious metals-Gold, Silver, Platinum and Palladium are spiraling upward in price. Thus ALL commodities are moving upward in price due to parity, Honey included. Everyone out there should pay their bills that were made when the dollar was strong while honey is at an all time inflated price. Sadly the flip side is the goods that are needed to run a bee business are also slowly increasing. Good luck and hope you ALL are having a bumper crop with these high prices. We are not doing badly this year and should fall somewhere around 75 or more pounds per hive for the year. TED


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## irwin harlton

According to the USDA, food prices could, should actually drop this fall, as a big corn harvest is expected

http://www.agweek.com/event/article/id/18678/

I ALSO believe in the tooth fairy


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## soupcan

Big corn harvest?????
What a joke!!!
Lots & lots of water & bunches of unplanted acres!!!
This alone will not make for a bumper crop!!!


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## JohnLaurino

With the dollar falling down all over the world and while China is seeking for bigger volumes of food, I can not see why food prices would come down. Unless we have a serious recession in the US, I dont think food prices will decrease too much.


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## irwin harlton

Ron Phipps August HONEY MARKET UPDATE REGARDING ARGENTINE HONEY

https://docs.google.com/document/d/111NJRNvApfwYD4artTq6dLKzOwphOr3059NnJMBAdTI/edit?hl=en_US


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## JohnLaurino

RT @honeybroker: Asian Honey, Banned in Europe, Is Flooding U.S. Grocery Shelves... http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/08/honey-laundering/


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## suttonbeeman

NOw that is a really really good article! FDA has refused to pass a standard for honey and now it looks like the reason is they would have to actually work for their salary. As a gereral rule Ill bet a person in FDA works 1/2 has hard as a beekeeper and has less invested in their education as a beekeeper does in his buiness. In general federal workers make 4 times as much as the public worker and I will guarantee work easier. Now on to SUe Bee I'm not suprised at their not returning messages...they are one of the major players of importing chinese honey! With nice clover (labeled that way) honey on the shelf of sams club stores for 11.50 for 5 lbs of US clover honey something is wrong. You cannot pay 1.70/lb for honey and sell it for 2.10 a lb and break even. Sue members should take control of their coop and fire all officers and start over selling "good " honey! I still cant believe sue members let their board get away with what they do to their members! We all need to call FDA and demand action!


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## Ted Kretschmann

Rick, some of those 2.10 a pound prices were pre-contracted. You know yourself you have to fill the contract at the pre-agreed price or loose it. If you check again, I think you will see much higher prices. What Sioux is paying the members will increase as the demand on the market increases. Sioux has been packing last years crop, that explains what Rick is seeing. Last years crop was purchased around a 1.50 a pound with bonus. That is a .60 cent spread difference between 2.10 and 1.50. Rick, I have been to two Sioux plants-the one in North Carolina and the main plant in Sioux City, Iowa. I have never seen any of these gazzillion Chinese honey drums that you keep claiming are in Sioux's warehouses. All I ever see are thousands upon thousands of members drums-black in color. TED


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## jim lyon

While I will admit that SHA at times works in mysterious ways I think it's safe to assume that their primary motive in anything they do is to increase their bottom line and hence the earnings for their members. Implied in your posting is that SHA is selling tainted honey. My take on Sue is that they run a pretty rigorous testing program in their lab, in fact one of the main complaints that I hear is that when they find honey that dosent meet their specs (possibly its antibiotics, or heavy metals, or suspected adulteration, or maybe its simply moisture, flavor or color) they simply reject it most likely because it was not what it was originally represented or sampled as. I have sold them honey and have found them to be very prompt in paying and their word has always been good. They will not, though, issue a check until it passes all of their tests, they are very clear about that. Seems to me that if everyone followed this model then we wouldnt have the problems that we currently have. Unfortunately there are those who choose to resell honey that clearly is of questionable safety and origin, I think that folks should save their vitriol for these shady operations. If there are those that feel that SHA is one of the aforementioned packers then lets hear the evidence. But if the main complaint is that they are way too price competitive then you will have to convince me how that in itself is illegal. My assumption is that they have the packing facilities the labor force and the contracts and if they can even make a few cents a pound then they probably consider it a worthwhile endeavor, if they are losing money on the deal then they probably wont be doing it for long.


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## Keith Jarrett

suttonbeeman said:


> As a gereral rule Ill bet a person in FDA works 1/2 has hard as a beekeeper and has less invested in their education as a beekeeper does in his buiness.


Gee Rick, You getting soft in your old age.... really starting give the Goverment worker too much credit. 

come...on Gov Perry.


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## New Ky Beekeeper

irwin harlton said:


> According to the USDA, food prices could, should actually drop this fall, as a big corn harvest is expected
> 
> http://www.agweek.com/event/article/id/18678/
> 
> I ALSO believe in the tooth fairy


Irwin, I love your humor. 
I'm not confident in the USDA's predictions this year - I know 15 states are in a severe drought. I also know the government is pushing ethanol..... I believe this crop will fall short and with the price over $7 per bushel, the markets don't show they predict a big crop either.

Just my 2 cents...... 
Phil


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## ryan

Checked out honey at my local store. Sue had one thing on the shelf, a 12 oz bear. It was the more expensive than 2 of the other bears, and only 2-3 cents less than the most expensive brand. Bears have always been a huge part of Sue business. 

Ted, your on to the story about how much was paid for the honey Sutton is seeing. No question that was last years crop and contract. The new crop is just starting to roll in. Sue also buys a lot of honey from non member beekeepers. I know of honey purchased at the $1.40 - $1.45 level last summer. 

Sutton also says the honey on the shelf was not white. That means some of that honey was darker and purchased for less than top dollar price last year. Right?? Ok, sounds like a Wal-Mart thing to do, contract to buy something less than the best available. I'm sure it wouldn't be the first thing I bought there that was second best, but it got me by for that week. 

We are talking about the rock bottom, bulk supply, OMG that's a low price club membership store, right? Everything should be sold at a razor thin margin. Except honey, because it's somehow different than cheap pork or beef or the 8 gallon jug of ketchup we buy.

Don't forget promotions, inventory clearing, mistakes, and Loss Leaders that happen at Wal-Mart and other chains


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## ryan

Don't forget Sue members automatically donate to fund the anti dumping campaigns and efforts to stop transshipped honey. Real money. Many years it has been 1/4 to 1/2 a cent per pound. The formula is new this year. Our automatic donations will be larger I believe. I think it will be several hundreds of thousand of dollars plus what members give on a volunteer basis. Money well spent.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Ryan I have been a Sue member a very long time now. I have always been a proud Sue member and will continue to be so.Rick is a friend of mine. He rants on Sue and gives me a hard time about being a Co-op member. I do not know the source of the rage with in, but it must be more than "Chinese Honey". TED


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## Bill Russell

At a recent regional SHA meeting the Sioux staff member was wondering how Sams can get by with marking up the 5 lbers. so little. They just run a tight ship, something Rick wouldn't be opposed to. By the way, one can tell if private label honey is packed by SHA or somebody else is by looking at the country of origin. If it's US, SHA packed it. Can your packer claim the that?


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## suttonbeeman

Ted dont take it personal...hahaha. Go google seattle times honey laundering. A five part series a reporter did on chinese circumvented honey. THe reporter traced a container of honey from china to a address used to relabel as made in a third world country to port in Jacksonville Fl to Sioux City iowa. When he ask sue do you import chinese honey answer was NO. Then he presented them the evidence and they said well we try not to. (haha) Dont you think if a reporter could trace is Sue knew where it was from? With what Ive been told and seen I highly suspect SUE members are not always told the whole truth nothing but the truth. Lets look at the 60 cent spread....back in the early 1990's I was talking to a major packer. At the time I was bottling and selling to 96 kroger stores and my overhead (utilities insurance shrinkage labor building and transportation to my building ran about 10 cents a pound and suprisingly he said his did too. I have no idea what it is today but you can bet its more. The container they are suing cost me (simular one) about 90 cents, so Ill bet it cost sue at least 50 cents. now 20 cents of the 60 is gone. (1.50 was cheap last year most sold for 1.60 and If ted get his bonus you have to deduct it. I understand contracts ect but that is not much margin and profit for sams club and sue less their transportation between warehouses deducted and other cost. 

The big problem we have as beekeepers that sell to packers is the quality of honey on the shelf and even worse in portion packs. No wonder my sales of honey have gone thru the roof. You never see good nice light clover honey on the shelf, the honey at sams was in the extra light amber color or dark end of white. the main reason for this is most large chains put out bids and who bids the cheapest gets the contract....regardless of how it taste or blended to achieve the low price. It use to be on large restaurant chain wanted US clover honey, then it was us honey and then light amber honey and now as long as the label says honey they are fine. I dont think a starving bee would eat it, taste worse than castor oil. this restaurant chains has probably turned off many children to eating honey(they do not get it from sue). It just seems to me a members coop would promote quailty and not import crap to blend in to achieve a better profit or sell cheap.


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## suttonbeeman

Bill not saying they do or dont but you can print anything on a label lots of sourwood sold here.....even in years with no sourwood flow


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## suttonbeeman

I wont go in to all the details as there is another post on here I made about comparing apples and oranges(getting paid now, 30 days and like sue over a year period after delivery) and subtracting interest and the percentage of your crop sue takes as operating capitol and what you could buy to grow business or debt paid off and save interest. I might someday broker my friend Teds honey for him and make him some money. My anti SUe started when they were selling bears for 83 cents each in 2001, driving the price of honey down. I was representing the National Honey Board at the Wisconsin meeting and was asked by my friend Mr. Wally Dienelt of Honey Acres (one of the most knowledgeable honey packers I ever met who help me alot even taking me thru his plant long ago) why the price of honey was going down so fast. All this is on a post here and I gave my apples and oranges speech and told price Sue was selling for. Some of Sue management was at the meeting and strongly denied it, and left the meeting. I got calls for ABF president and NHB president on Monday morning as Sue was throwing a fit. I did take my NHB and ABF director hat off and spoke as Rick Sutton beekeeper. Long story short, at the ABF meeting in Louisville about 5 years ago one of sue's management admitted to me that my figures were right but they didnt want their members to know at that time.


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## Ted Kretschmann

The question I have Rick, did the container of honey make it through the Sue lab???? That is a BIG question. I have seen members honey rejected, too much of something that should have not been there.... I have seen Ukrainian honey Rejected by the Sioux lab because it was transhipped from somewhere else. I have seen Ukrainian honey accepted because it was truly what was on the bill of laden-Ukrainian honey. I have marked on the shipping label what I thought the source of honey was, only to be told that it was something else because of the Labs pollen analysis methodology. Thus the Sioux lab works hard at certification that only quality honey is used in the Sioux system. So this brings me back to the Chinese honey. If it passed the Sioux Lab analysis, then it was truly honey. Honey that could be used for most likely industrial usage. Thus putting a few extra dollars in the membership's pocket, that is what Co-ops are suposed to do. And Sioux does it well. Can you say that your honey goes through such a stringent Labratory analysis????? TED KRETSCHMANN


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## suttonbeeman

Now that was a great comeback TED! Gotta give it to ya, very well written article. No I dont go thru a Sue lab as i dont sell to Sue and as you know I bottle most of my honey, but do on occasion sell to a major packer who test for any contamination. Since I dont use any fluvinuate or chumophus strips or rags or whatever i dont have any issues with those thigs. I know you love sue as much as i dislike what they do. I just happen to think their members(including you ) could do even better if they managed it differant. I also think that if you took the apples and oranges deal of figuring out how much you loose in interest paid or what you could do with the capitol that sue retains(for those of you who dont know If you join SUE as a new member they retain somewhere around 10 percent of your gross for the first 7 or 10 years. I'm not sure what exactly it is but lets just say 10 years. thats 100 percent of one years gross honey sales they retain over the first years of your membership for operating capitol. If you produce 2 1/2 semi loads (100,000 lbs or about 150 barrells) that would be about $175,000 of your hard earned money(the cream) Sue would retain for operating. What could you do to make more money with that or for that matter pay off. Interest rates will not stay this low forever....with operating capitol interest rates at about 10 percent(in long term average) thats 17,500 per year gone in interest payments. gotta compare price to price and the way I always figured it was since Sue pays some with in 30 days some later and finally about a year later you get final check that to break even you needed about 12 percent more to break even with SUE which at todays prices would be around 20 cents per pound more that you woudl have recieved from say dutch gold or barkmans who pay generally on net 30.


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## Bud Dingler

southern Mn and Wisco very good crop but fewer beeks there to cash in. most years not the best place to bee in these two states. 

the main area of beekeepers in MN along I94 to western state line is terrible crop with 8-10 inches rain in July. many long time beekeepers with under 30 pound average. this area of rain extends back into Nodak and poor crop there too in central part of state. overall i see very low crop in this usual big honey producer region and I have many contacts. 

i predict a lower US crop then last year. prices in upper 1.80 a reality now for fall sales.


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## Roland

I have reason to believe that Sue bee honey does not stand up to a IR absorption spectrophotometer test. I dropped off a sample of my own honey, and Sue's "Clover" , and am expecting lab results soon. I am also trying to develop the "standard" clover honey, with out any chance of feed included. Christian and I saw this piece of equipment operate, and it has the potential to solve, or create alot of problems for us. 

Sutton wrote:
my friend Mr. Wally Dienelt of Honey Acres (one of the most knowledgeable honey packers I ever met who help me alot even taking me thru his plant long ago)

Correction: The late Wally Diehnelt( he never spells it right)

Crazy Roland


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## Ted Kretschmann

Roland, why do you think that Sue honey will not stand up to the IR absorption spectrophotometer test??? Inquiring minds like mine would like to know. TED


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## suttonbeeman

Roland thanks for getting Ted off my case and onto yours!! hahaha I hadnt heard Wally had passed on, you have my deepest sympathy, I thought the world of him. I remember at one of my first National Beekeeping meetings. I think it was in minneapolis in 1984 that he sat down with me and gave me alot of pointers on lots of things about honey. I had been a beekeeper for 7 years and was starting to buy and pack some honey. Still green behind the ears as I was 27 and looked 21 he taught me alot then and many times since over the years. A true friend. I never did learn to spell his name,but I got better and close...only missed it by one letter this time!
My bees in Wisconsin have also had a good year. The load in central wi would have been a bumper crop but it got dry and I took Teds suggestion and ran around honey house butt naked doing a rain dance,,,,its Teds fault he never told me to do it just one time...so I did it 14 times....got 14 inches of rain in 4 days. really hurt the knapweed flow which was in full bloom. Still we had a good crop.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Knap weed honey is GOOD honey. I produce a good crop if I am pollinating Cranberries and stay through the summer in Wisconsin. Have not done that in awhile. Roland, Rick, Come on guys, give Sioux a break. The real problem people for bringing in adulterated chinese honey is the Groeb group. Go outside one of their packing plants and that is all you will see is semi after semi of Chinese "honey" drums. Their "Chinese Language skills" are really very good!! TED


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## suttonbeeman

Ted I agree with your above post, I have seen all those chinese barrells. I just amazes me that the FDA lets this go on and then will give us seven kinds of you know what over a nit picky thing. While I have no evidence, I have had many too many people tell me who I would say are in a position to know that Sue si not always honest with their members. I know you like Sue and even if you are totally right and I'm wrong I thnk they could be run better witha much better result for their members


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## irwin harlton

You can also see those drums on Google with street view.....last time I looked they were all green


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## irwin harlton

Billy BEE , according to a reliable source is currently offering the vast sum of 1.47/lb.... doubt if they get a drop of honey at this price, they also had out future contracts ,early part of this year at 1.60...... so one can see how this game of of pricing is being played by this packer


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## jim lyon

This is never a very good time to sell honey. I don't think it's real unusual for packers to lower their prices a bit when new crop honey first starts to come into the market. No doubt there are always a few producers who are anxious to "cash in" even though the price is a bit lower.


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## The Honey Householder

Jim, At $2.05 in the barrel. I'm selling everything. I sell to the beekeepers that knows what it take to produce the good stuff. I'm a member of the NO PACKERS ALLOW CLUB!!!


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## sqkcrk

jim lyon said:


> I don't think it's real unusual for packers to lower their prices a bit when new crop honey first starts to come into the market.


What determines what a packer/buyer will pay? Availability. Right? So, of course, when more new crop is available the price will go down some. Where there is competition in finding buyers, buyers can set lower prices. When there is buyer demand, producers can set higher prices. No one makes anyone sell or buy, but the market.


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## jim lyon

Sorry if I stated the obvious Mark and if someone is suggesting that producers are being forced to sell at a lower price guess I missed that, just trying to make the point that the fact a certain buyer has lowered their offering price isn't necessarily a new market trend just a seasonal fluctuation. Unless, of course, you are a Sue member in that case......ooops better not go there. Glad to hear your market is still strong HH I am a bit envious but I am also betting that those same buyers arent going to pay that kind of money with the freight required to get it shipped from the Dakotas.


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## DRUR

irwin harlton said:


> Billy BEE , according to a reliable source is currently offering the vast sum of 1.47/lb.... doubt if they get a drop of honey at this price,


Because of the drought I produced no honey this year and instead am making splits and building colonies by feeding sugar syrup. However, a neighbor customer of mine [because I had no honey] bought *Billy Bee* honey from Walmart at get this, you heard me right, *$1.00 for a 1 pound* platic container. Both he and I agreed it wasn't anywhere near as good as mine [I get $6.00 for a 1 pound container, for local treatment free honey]; but nonetheless, when he went back this large display was sold out. I know they carried it for several more weeks because he told me they did.

Kindest Regards
Danny


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## irwin harlton

I was simply trying to make the point that the new fall price from Billy bee , 1.47 certainly made there spring offering of 1.60 ( future contract on 2011 honey) look real good, last year they were at 1.55 ,late fall and I think they moved up later in the new year, but were still not as good as some US prices in late spring


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## jean-marc

Well Drur sounds like you had an opportunity to buy all of Billy Bee's honey at $1.99/lb and sell it back to them at $1.47 a pound. Of course you would of have to open 40 000 bears or a bit more to make a load for them. 

Jeran-Marc


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## honeyshack

irwin harlton said:


> Billy BEE , according to a reliable source is currently offering the vast sum of 1.47/lb.... doubt if they get a drop of honey at this price, they also had out future contracts ,early part of this year at 1.60...... so one can see how this game of of pricing is being played by this packer


I think part of the reason the honey price has dropped is our strong Canadian Dollar. Dollar goes up, commodities go down. Rarely does a high or climbing dollar mean our commodity prices go up or stay the same.


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## sqkcrk

irwin harlton said:


> ... so one can see how this game of of pricing is being played by this packer


Yes, we can. How would you play the game, were you a honey packer? It's business. And it is the nature of business to do what is good for the business. It is in a Honey Packers Nature, their best interest, not necassarily yours, to try to get what they need at as low a price as they can. Just as it is in your Nature to try to get as high a price as you can. Any surprises here?

It seems like what is being "discussed" is the same old same old, talk about us and them and we aren't the bad guys. Maybe I am reading too much into the current discussion on this Thread.

Anybody have a list of who is paying what for different grades of honey? Gamber, Sue Bee, and the like?


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## jim lyon

The major packers were bidding about 1.75 for white a month ago, wouldnt be surprised if that has softened some with new crop honey coming into the market but I don't personally have any evidence of that. Domestic production is probably going to be a bit under last year. I'm no expert on this but if there are any factors in the world market situation that would dramatically push prices lower I havent heard about it.


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## JohnLaurino

Crucial date for international market will be Sep 6th when the European Court will decide if honeys with presence of certain contents of GMO pollen will have to have a specific label warning or not. Market expects a "no" as the decision. German importers are holding any deals until this decision is taken. Acutally they used this to reneg/cancell some contracts... This, combined to the bigger than expected argentine production this year and the current domestic crops in the northern hemisphere is contributing to the softening markets. Situation may change in September when german buyers will come back to the pot with big needs in hands. There will be also APIMONDIA in Buenos Aires, from 20th to 25th of September, when most traders will define the purchases plans for the next 3-4 months . I dont see any economic evidence that could support a bear honey market in the last quarter. I think we may see a "rally" in sarting in few weeks time.


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## irwin harlton

from 
http://www.apinews.com/en/component/k2/item/15787
SA- THE COUNTRY IS THE LARGEST PURCHASER OF HONEY FROM ARGENTINA

Sunday, 28 August 2011 03:00 Written by Administrator


Journalists Federico Petrera (s) and Guillermo Ledwitch comment on honey exports from Argentina, 
and its most important destinations: USA - 46% and Germany with almost 25% of 44.739 tons exported from January to July.

A beekeeper friend from Chile tells me the price quoted on this site is from one buyer and the actual market price is a little higher from other buyers


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## irwin harlton

Rally or no rally?

http://gonzalolira.blogspot.com/2011/09/forget-goldwhat-matters-is-copper.html


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## swarm_trapper

talked to a packer yesterday sounds like the price is dropping due to the European union not allowing GMO honey in the country. So where will Europe get all there honey now?


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## jim lyon

Guess I am not shocked at hearing that, taking Germany off the list of worlds honey customers is bound to have some ramifications, though it may be a bargaining ploy as much as anything. I'm guessing this story has a few more chapters yet to be written. Intrestingly, though, the packers I have talked to recently have been pretty consistent on pricing at around 1.60 white since new crop started coming in later in the summer. I have also had several calls from packers just "checking in". They don't ususally do that when they are awash in honey.


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## Ian

I have gotten an offer to sell some buckwheat honey for $2 / lbs @ my loading dock. But it does have alot of alfalfa honey mixed in it so the real Buckwheat premium isnt there


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## irwin harlton

What is 80 mm plus buckwheat selling for? There are ways of darkening it , by blending and heating.I hear a bamboo floral source is a good blender for darkening, and a little heat doesn't do much to the taste


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## Ian

I dont know much about that, but he was more concerned about the taste and smell than the colour. I suppose if the taste is there he will not have any trouble in darkening it??


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## The Honey Householder

Packer called looking for some loads of honey. He offered $1.65-$1.70 LOL. I asked which is it $1.65 or $1.70. I'm glad I had to tell him I was sold out. Those are the prices I sold two years ago. This is early for packers to be calling the producers. Just tells you there isn't the honey being put out on the market. At those prices you have to hold, or find a better market.


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## hpm08161947

We sold our fall honey ( the dark stuff) for $2 a pound in the barrel and $2.50 in the bucket (60lb). It went to several small bottlers... it is all gone... did we sell too cheap?


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## Poptart

Herb for dark fall honey I think you did good! Wholesale for amber in the Mideast is $1.40-$1.75 per pound as stated in the new ABJ.


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## Lost Bee

I've always wondered about this supply and demand stuff. It's my opinion that the
big players in any industry try to cripple the little guy with their flooding of the market 
with their products. At least, it's always seems that way Then the commercial buyers 
say that it's a supply and demand thing. Isn't it the same product?

The best example I can think of is the petroleum industry. Ever notice that the prices
for gasoline at the pumps jumps up at the threat of war, instabilty, etc. While it takes 
like forever, if never for the prices to lower at their normal prices when all is ok. 

The suppliers will say that they have to now pay higher to get gasoline so you 
now have to pay more. But wasn't the gas in the pumps now paid ata lower price.
This price gouging is a sad and everyone buys it. 

But the gasoline presently in the pumps was bought at cheaper prices.
Sorry for talking about gas, I'm sure it's easier for you to understand 
this example since it affect almost everyone on the planet. Food prices
are sure to be the same.

I'm not kocking the big producers they are out to make money. 
It's the big buyers that are the culprits, with their stockhoders.
I just wish the little guy could make equal money for his product 
that's all. I know that will probably never happen.


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## jim lyon

I really dont think your comparisons of the oil business to the honey industry stand up to closer scrutiny. Most of the major players in honey marketing are family owned companies or member owned cooperatives. The honey industry, I presume, is a bit too small for the Krafts, Proctor and Gambles and the like to show much interest in. The great thing about our industry, and what you have missed in your post is that the smaller guy who takes the time and effort to market his or her product as a unique local product can command a far higher price than the larger producers who end up having to sell their honey to the major packers in trailer load quantities.


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## Lost Bee

What a about these guys? Scrutiny this Jim:

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/09/02/11-execs-6-foreign-firms-caught-in-huge-honey-sting/

Here's the full indictment:

http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/pr/chicago/2010/pr0901_01a.pdf

I learned a new thing in that story. *Honey Laundering*

I'm sure they ain't alone. 

Oh look, some more, Jim:

http://www.disinfo.com/2011/01/the-dark-world-of-honey-laundering/

It ain't over: 

http://foodwhistleblower.org/blog/22/211

Quoted from the above link:

*Schneider reports that four or five of the 12 major honey packers in the U.S. knowingly 
buy this illegal honey so they can sell it cheaper and make more money. According to Richard Adee, 
the Washington Legislative Chairman of the American Honey Producers Association, "we know who 
they are" and "everyone in the industry knows." But no names were revealed in the article.*

Honey importer sentenced to 30 months for conspiring to evade US import duties:

http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/1011/101105chicago.htm

What you missed Jim is that I never mentioned anything against the producers large and small.
They are ok in my books. It's the big business corporate types that are the problem. 

You show many any industry today and I'll show you some corruption in it!


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## jim lyon

Lost Bee: First off I have re-read your post and my reply to try to understand the biting tone of your post. If you are implying that all the major American honey packers are involved in deals like this then I simply say that I dont believe there is a body of evidence to support this contention. I have sold to most of the larger packers and would generally categorize them as shrewd but honest businessmen and yes most of these are privately owned businesses, some of them owned by the same family for generations. These links you have posted (and in this "Google age" I don't really care for link posting wars) are all about a well documented case of criminals who got caught doing a lot of unseemly stuff and no one cheered louder when they were indicted than I. Here is a recent initiative that many of the big players in the American honey packing industry are signed onto (and for brevity I will keep it to just one link). http://truesourcehoney.com/ Do you disagree with my statement that the smaller producer/packer has a distinct advantage in the market place by being able to ask a premium price for a quality locally produced product? I see these products all the time in grocery stores of all sizes (including Wal-Mart) asking premium prices, they wouldnt be on the shelf long if they werent selling.


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## Lost Bee

I never implicated any American honey packers. Actually, I just posted stuff from the Internet for
all to read for themselves, with the links so people would know I ain't making anything up. I also 
never mentioned any country for that matter in either posts. What other writers say is, what they 
say. I just provided the links that's all. I don't know why your indicating that I'm knocking on 
producers cause neither of post say anything against any producers. 

Oh well good luck.


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## irwin harlton

"These big packers are still using imported honey of uncertain safety that they know is illegal because they know their chances of getting caught are slim," Adee said.

Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/08/...ey-may-be-on-u-s-store-shelves/#ixzz1c2IhkuhT
I would say there is almost a conspiracy among the largest US packers to import cheap Chinese honey, if only to remain competitive in some markets.
As far as True Source honey , i think its sorta of a bad joke on North American producers, all honey produced in the western hemisphere can be traced,its what comes from China is the problem


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## hpm08161947

We buy used honey buckets from a Turkey Co. They all say Argentina, India. Do you think that means China -> India-> Argentina -> USA? Makes me wonder.


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## Lost Bee

Oh boy, Irwin don't speak the truth or they'll get mad. 

hpm08161947, get the honey tested for those insecticides mentioned 
in links of my post #688. If they are positive you know you've been
duped. I hope not.


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## hpm08161947

Lost Bee said:


> Oh boy, Irwin don't speak the truth or they'll get mad.
> 
> hpm08161947, get the honey tested for those insecticides mentioned
> i


They are just empty buckets when I get them. Still got the labels though.Guess GROEB FARMS was the packer - least that is what is on the label.


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## Lost Bee

Groeb Farms is mentioned in this in blending their honey,etc.

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/Pre_96/January95/47.txt.html

I guess the truth hurts, sorry hpm08161947.

I've never knew anything about Honey Laundering till today.

I'm glad I buy honey direct from a small producer.


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## irwin harlton

Must be a nice to grow your packing buisness, selling Cheap foreign honey, lets see plants in Michigan, florida, texas and California, where next, the north west USA, and you get every other large packer who is forced to join in the meelee to hold some market share
208 MILLION LBS OF IMPORTED HONEY in the last 18 months, ( 50 % of one years consumption }45 million from India alone ( Adee says there ain't enough bees in India TO produce that amt)Honey market is hot and according to Ron Phipps its going to get a lot hotter


----------



## hpm08161947

Lost Bee said:


> Groeb Farms is mentioned in this in blending their honey,etc.
> 
> 
> I'm glad I buy honey direct from a small producer.


Interesting read.

Don't worry we clean the empty buckets out very well. Then we put the good stuff in them. Pretty hard to turn down used buckets for .05 a piece.


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## Lost Bee

I guess Honey Laundering isn't as serious as Money Laundering.
It's only the food people eat right?


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## jim lyon

If you are going to post links then maybe not have them be from 1995. Not sure where anyone got the idea that I would defend illegal importation of unhealthy honey. Wouldnt it be nice if our government was actually vigilant about inspecting the purity of the products that come across our borders, no argument there at all. I only have a problem when you start painting all honey packers with the same broad brush, yeah there are a few bad ones out there no question about it. My understanding of the original intent of Lost Bee's post was that the "little guy dosent have an opportunity to make equal money for his product". I pointed out the fact that it is quite common for a smaller guy to get a higher return than a larger guy and I felt I did so in a non-confrontational way. Now if I might politely excuse myself until things settle down here a bit.


----------



## Lost Bee

I wonder what would happen if local honey producers would sell clean unadulterated honey
to China? Wouldn't it be sold at a premium vs their medicated residue honey? It's too bad 
production isn't that strong in the Americas.


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## sqkcrk

I think you should look into what it costs to send Honey to China. The Duties would make you sick.


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## Lost Bee

sqkcrk said:


> The Duties would make you sick.


Sorry if I wrote that wrong or confused you. It was meant that the importers could maybe 
be exporting instead. But there would be nothing to export since North America can't even 
supply it's own honey demand. If the duties are not the same for importing and exporting 
there's something wrong. 

Importing and exporting is the big leagues stuff.

Without flooding the market with cheaper and possibly tainted honey from other countries wouldn't 
you all agree that the local producers would all get premium selling prices? Since the demand would 
outstrip it's own supply. Why should you have to live by health regulations (bee medication, etc.). While 
some ignore it all and are only out to make a quick buck. If I was a big time honey consumer I would 
be worried where my honey came from.


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## gregstahlman

not a big fan of importing honey but it's just the way it is. if prices of honey go to high on the shelves consumers do not buy the product because honey is not a necessity. also companies look for other sweeteners to use that are cheaper. honey prices are the best that they have been in years. i am worried that someday honey will be too high and it will cause a drop in retail sales. not much good being a large honey producer if the packers aren't buying because they can't move their inventory


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## suttonbeeman

Called about price of pepper honey today...one large fl PACKER OFFERED 1.20(NOT GONNA GET IT FOR THAT), another midwest 1.40. florida packer offered can you beleive 
this?? 40 cents for melter. Same packer imports huge amount chinese honey for years. Mid west packer told me that Argentian crop turned out better than thought and that along with no argentine honey going into Eu that all of it was coming here. that is holding price of light honey steady....if not for argentina 1.80 plus.


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## JohnK and Sheri

Posting links is fine, but please include a summary of where the link takes you and what it shows. This allows the reader to chose whether the link is somewhere they want to go or not.
Thanks,
Sheri


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## The Honey Householder

Rick, I had a packer that just ordered $1.75 a lb for melter honey. I've sold all but 14 ton of 2011 crop for over $2 a lb. It cost to much to produce honey to just give it away, I'm just glad that the beekeeper I sell to understand that. 

Greg, I thought the same way a few years back. Most packers in the East don't call producer until they see how Argentain crop is going to be. I've had 3 calls from packers and I haven't sold to these packers in years. This years crop in big time short. My crop was down 34% from last years. On top of my expense up 11% for bees and queens. My honey price only increased 10% across the board. I know I don't produce the # of ton you do Greg, and yes the price of honey is at it highest even, but so is evevything else. Just glad to have got out from under the packers thumb.:thumbsup:


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## BMAC

$1.75 LBS for melter honey is good. I thought I was doing pretty good selling it for $1.00 a lbs to the local cheapos.


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## jim lyon

suttonbeeman said:


> Mid west packer told me that Argentian crop turned out better than thought and that along with no argentine honey going into Eu that all of it was coming here. that is holding price of light honey steady....if not for argentina 1.80 plus.


I would say that bargaining ploy is a bit of a reach, Argentine crop news is about 6 months old. The EU GMO thing is a pretty fluid situation though. cleareyes posted an interesting link on that whole situation, hope it gets reposted.


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## cleareyes

Honey Market Update…by Ron Phipps
http://buzzinbeeapiaries.com/honey-market-update


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## irwin harlton

Panjiva is an online resource for sourcing executives to gain knowledge about suppliers and manufacturers around the world.

Panjiva hosts a database of information on over 1,000,000 suppliers, including recent shipments, customer lists, credit reports, certification details, and denied parties lists. It claims to be the first and only online information source designed to provide complete transparency into overseas suppliers. According to Jeff Silberman, chair of the department of textile development and marketing at New York's Fashion Institute of Technology "Panjiva is not just innovative, it's revolutionary"[1]
By collecting market data from suppliers, Panjiva is also able to produce details of trends within sectors. Information published by Panjiva has been used by news websites such as FT.com[2] and CNNMoney.com[3].

http://panjiva.com/trends/040900 On this particular web site we are tracking trading trends in honey,its HST CODE being 040900, you can adjust the time frame( 2y to 1 mnth ) on the right hand side to see how this changes the trend.By poking around this site you might be surprised what you can find , for instance Odem a Canadian honey broker has imported some honey from India, the president of Odem is also vice chairman of True Source Honey, I am not saying that this honey wasn't from India or wasn't traceable but I no longer believe in the tooth fairy


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## irwin harlton

http://www.apinews.com/en/component/k2/item/16463

Using a google translator, it is the writers opinion a Mr Arturo Hatrick , how the EU community has manipulated the price of honey from SA presently and in the past, his graph is very informative


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## irwin harlton

http://skamberg.com/honey.htm

The latest honey report from S Kamberg, dated August 2011 seems to show not much has changed since August but Ron Phipps,in his report in august comments"in 2012 we could see rising prices for both white and industrial grades of honey."This all seems to depend on Europe going into a serious buying mode which doesn't seem to be happening to fast


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## suttonbeeman

Very poor pepper crop in florida. Price offers by two packed in Florida ranged from 1.18 to 1.23. Pepper is light amber and had a bite but really isn't that bad a honey. Much much better. Than those little packets u get in 
Restaurant. Guess I'm going yo do some creative marketing...o don't give my honey away to greedy packers!


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## kokomodreamin

You may need to make a few more calls, I got 1.30 from the larger florida packer, and got a quote of 1.40 from a large east coast packer, and hear 1.50 floating around from the mid west.


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## irwin harlton

Anyone hearing about some Volatility in the honey market, perhaps some downward movement in packer offerings?????
The Gong show with GMO pollen continues in Europe and is perhaps showing its effect here as well as in Argentina. Maybe ChinIndia honey is partly to blame, and maybe Europe will get all its honey from China, pollen free, ultra filtered after they buy all that European debt


----------



## suttonbeeman

Thanks kokomo. I later called a Midwest packer and got offered 1.40. I think I need to get some labels and sell as all natural wild Christmas berry honey! It isn't as bad a honey. As some believe... much better tasting than store bought and ten times better than portion pack at kfc. Where r u in Polk Co?I told grown and gold sweet I was not selling for under 1.40


----------



## jean-marc

GMO issues certainly have some ramifications in the world market. That argentinian honey that should have been destined will probably end up in the US. How this all plays out remains to be seen. It's in everybodies best interest that the EU folks resolve their issues. It has to be pretty messy because all the players have there own agendas which be in direct conflict with the neighbour. Eventually the Europeans will be able to work something out, but until then it could be another rough ride.

I believe Irwin that chinese honey is being traded in the EU and the chinese didn't have to buy the debt either,at least not yet.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Roland

If I was a betting man, REAL white or varietal honey will soon command a premium, and Phunny Honey will be near worthless. About the First of the year should be the time of change.

Crazy ROland


----------



## irwin harlton

GMO ISSUES...IF you had a dairy farm in Europe, and you just happen to feed some corn or how about some of that new round up ready alfalfa, the milk produced as I understand it would have to say on the label " may contain GMO".Apparently all corn is GMO contaminated, no one can find corn seed that does not contain GMO, no even in the remote parts of Mexico. If in Europe, they do not soon tidy this up the can of worms will get a lot larger, and it won't be just honey that's effected.Trade barriers seldom work ,this one will come back and eat the people who started it


----------



## irwin harlton

"If I was a betting man, REAL white or varietal honey will soon command a premium, and Phunny Honey will be near worthless. About the First of the year should be the time of change."

I certainly like your bet or opinion, but your basis for this is theory is ?

Short 2011 US crop?,world shortage of white honey and perhaps coloured honey too? An underfed US packing industry with no crop carry over from last year?
A robust recession for food commodities, honey is reportedly moving off the shelf well despite its price and quality issues.(some foreign honey has some peculiar tastes)
ALL of the above and more, please feel free to add


----------



## Roland

Irwin - none of the above.

Don't want to show my hand yet. AS it becomes prudent, I will gladly share.

Crazy Roland


----------



## cleareyes

While the United States discovers that 70% of honey sold in supermarkets has no pollen, China discovers that 70% of honey sold on their shelves is rice sirop.
http://www.house-holder.com/?p=2011
http://www.ichainnel.com/en/read.php?id=214199_fc567d&tr=en

These two stories are chinese blogs translated in english. Very hard to understand but after a few times you get the big picture...

A new set of regulations for honey is to be put in place by the end of the year in China.
I heard the same for the United States in a beekeeping meeting. Some sort of a traceabilty system for imported honey. Has anyone heard about this?


----------



## irwin harlton

Good news , if its true , FDA is going to change the regulations on imported honey,sometime in the new year, it would seem the circumnavigation by the Chinese has finally pissed someone off that has the power to do something, rather than chasing around a bunch of crooked clown brokers and hundreds of loads of contaminated, adulterated honey.China is also suppose to clean up her act on her side of the pond at the same time . It would seem the honey industry may have helped to start this clean up of itself, as it has been a long downward journey for the industry with two price tiers
Hope this is all true and hats off to all the people who have worked so hard in the past to get this.


----------



## jean-marc

Irwin: 

On the GMO side, it may appear to us as a trade barrier but the goo ol judge who made the decision had to work with what he had. Apparently with the laws wriiten as they are now this is the ruling hehad to make. I agree that they've got a mess over there, and it could grow to swallow a bunch of other commodities.

As far as the chinese go, well thatr's another story. After reading part of the one article they have 4 grades of honey: Pass, fake, fake fake and fake fake fake. If pollen is the only issue with their honey then if I'm a chinese broker, the after ultrafiltering then I would dissolve required amount of pollen in water then mix it in my ultrafiltered tank and voila. You can have canola honey, clover honey, acacia whatever you like. Don't worry I'm not giving them inspiration, they get an A+ for this sort of rascal type of behavior.

Everytime some sort of legal hurdle is placed in front of them, they find a way around it.

Jean-Marc


----------



## jim lyon

jean-marc said:


> Irwin:
> 
> 
> 
> If pollen is the only issue with their honey then if I'm a chinese broker, the after ultrafiltering then I would dissolve required amount of pollen in water then mix it in my ultrafiltered tank and voila. You can have canola honey, clover honey, acacia whatever you like.
> 
> Everytime some sort of legal hurdle is placed in front of them, they find a way around it.
> 
> Jean-Marc


I have been thinking along those same lines. Isnt the bigger issue, though, the heavy metals and illegal antibiotics that may be in the honey. Is anyone claiming that filtration takes these things out as well?


----------



## irwin harlton

Jean Marc
If you excel at being a Chinese broker as well as you are a beekeeper ,you will be rich, and your new host country for this endeavour,buisness would be Argentina ?,.That's from the story I heard today,truth being stranger than fiction, production in Argentina has fallen dramatically over the last few years and it is to become the new host for the funny honey shippers.
Those legal hurdles have been like stepping stones,cheap honey sells, adultrated,containated cheap honey sells, the US industrial honey market seems to have a unlimited capacity if the price is right or lower.
Jim
I don't think you can remove all of the contaminates from the honey by ultra-filtering ( Chinese ultra-filtering). i think they still use the same test to find chloramphenicol ,at least they still have been finding it, by parts per billion .What has been occurring is they are blending it out as far as they can with India or whatever honey,much like a certain Australian packer did with the nitorfurans in Argentina honey a few years back. 

As for the latest Canadian honey buyer price offerings, they are hardly worth commenting on. Honey being a commodity is subject to the same volatility as silver , oil and gold. Does seem a little strange that there would be 10 cents difference just over the border.Canada being a net honey exporter(al be a small honey exporter in the total world production)needs more competition in the bulk buyer market.Just like when the buyers get a 
little greedy when prices are declining,their greed pushing them further down, the sellers, producers get the same when prices start to soar.Maybe thats why we have co-ops
.


----------



## cleareyes

Here's where you guys have me completely lost... If this is all true,
I'll have to agree with Roland about the "phunny honey".
To me "phunny honey" is honey that contains a certain % of an additive.
The biggest additive in the recent years has been rice sirop.
What caught my attention in this chinese blog was the carbone-3 testing device. The chinese have this technology since march 2011. This is the reason behind the 70% discovery of rice sirop instead of honey on the shelves of the chinese supermarkets.
Why is it important?
For the maple sirop industry in Quebec (I believe we produce approximately 100 million pounds, not sure, anyways, we are the largest producer in the world), it is crucial and to my knowledge this technology did not exist before, making rice sirop in maple sirop undetectable. 
3 years ago, during an annual meeting for our honey co-op (we are part of the maple sirop co-op) (http://www.citadelle-camp.coop/sirop-erable/index.aspx), the two reasons given for the decrease in revenue (maple sirop co-op) the previous year was the dollar appreciation and rice sirop. We had the oppprtunity to compare the two products and people with 30 years experience in the industry were unable tell which was which, the real stuff from the fake!
To me it is obvious, since it is (or it was) undetectable, that it found it's way into honey, one way or an other.
Carbone-3 testing is done in order to detect rice sirop and sugar beet (98% of plants on the planet produce carbone-3). The carbone-4 testing is done in order to detect corn sirop, sugar cane, starch (2% of plants on the planet produce carbone-4).
I'm I getting too hyped over this? I know the rules are probably going change but if this (and it seems that it exists) is integrated within the new rules a whole lot of sh"" is going to change... this wipes out 99.9% of all plants on earth right out of the equation for a possible sugar additive!
I know a lot of maple sirop producers who are going to be very happy about this one...


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## jkola404

$1.85 for a semi load from a midwest packer, and they picked it up.


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## jim lyon

jkola404 said:


> $1.85 for a semi load from a midwest packer, and they picked it up.


Thanks for the simple straightforward post.


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## mnbeekeeper

you are what you eat!!!!! that is a good price i must say jkola.... we have been selling lots of 20 barrels for 1.77. guess we need to raise the price to 1.85!!!


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## irwin harlton

I have been told, by more than one person that these higher priced loads ( and they are not that numerous yet) are caused by the packer needing 
American honey to make up a certain percentage of his pack , or his contract specifies US or a certain percentage to be US honey.
Last time I looked at a US honey label can't say I seen that small print of 23 countries of possible country of origin....but then again maybe I just need glasses


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## jean-marc

Not to worry Irwin, I have no intention, inclination , not even the genetic makeup to become a chinese honey broker. It is interesting to observe that they always seem to find some back door. CLose one and two open. Sold 25 drums at 1.80/lb

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

http://www.ice.gov/news/


11/29/2011 JACKSONVILLE, FL
3 arrested in Jacksonville honey dumping scheme
Three people accused of misclassifying Chinese honey as rice fructose in order to avoid more than $1 million in duties have been indicted in federal court on charges related to smuggling goods into the United States and providing false descriptions of the merchandise. read more

Looks like we may have to update US foreign honey imports a little, 900 containers over two years, is a least 36M lbs and maybe 44M lbs depending on the amount in each container.Nice business with a nice volume.Wonder who the customers were,are and if their names will be public
Jean Marc isn't that an old Chinese proverb " God did not close one door without opening another one ,two...."

One wonders how much counterfeit honey has been missed over the years since only 2% of all food imports into the USA are ever taken a good look at to confirm what they say they are


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## irwin harlton

from http://skamberg.com/

December 2011

Most raw honey prices have stabilized somewhat while Europe tries to resolve the GMO pollen in honey issue that has stalled their raw honey buying in the world market. This has allowed more foreign honey to enter the U.S. market at more stable prices. Europe has the highest per capita honey consumption in the world, so while European honey buying has been sluggish, we do expect them to start buying more aggressively in the next few months. This will probably happen when most of the new South American honey crop comes in next February into March. At that time, competition for this honey between the U.S. and Europe will probably firm up prices. Depending on the size of the South America crop, demand for this honey may not be as strong as in the last several years. With the Euro weakening, the U.S. should be in a better position to compete for this honey at more stable prices. If South America has a good honey crop, followed by good crops in Asia and North America next summer, we may actually see raw honey prices start to soften for the first time in several years. There are a lot of if's involved here, but the potential for softer raw honey prices is the best we have seen in a long time. 

Meanwhile, the U.S honey crop was very poor this year. We don't have the final volume numbers yet, but the 2011 honey crop could be the 2nd poorest in U. S history behind the 149 million lb. crop in 2009. Even with the poor U.S. honey crop, the influx of foreign honey at more stable prices has helped to stabilize U.S. honey prices.


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## honeyshack

odem called looking for honey...offered $1.50/lb for our honey...never been called before. Kinda cool


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## sqkcrk

I hope you called them back and said, "How about $2.00?"


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## irwin harlton

Odem is beating the bushes ,looking for the beekeeper who has to sell,Odem's prices this fall went from 1.47 to 1.43 to 1.50.Odem has been importing honey from India into the US,Odem's CEO is also the vice chairman of True Source Honey...sorta conflicting interests there, but what do I know.
Odem's packer customers must be paying a big bonus to round up as much of this cheap honey as possible or possibly the company is storing it on speculation.Packers would rather deal with one broker and purchase10-20 loads over a period of time rather than phoning 50 beekeepers, and or purchase from 10 beekeepers.Packers by dealing with a broker remain relatively undetected in the marketplace, only the broker knows they are buying or need honey


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## jim lyon

irwin harlton said:


> from http://skamberg.com/
> 
> If South America has a good honey crop, followed by good crops in Asia and North America next summer, we may actually see raw honey prices start to soften for the first time in several years. There are a lot of if's involved here, but the potential for softer raw honey prices is the best we have seen in a long time.


Huh? So if I might paraphrase: If everyone has a good crop next summer then prices will go down? Wow thanks for the Econ lesson Mr. Skamberg. Perhaps he should explain why he thinks this is anything more than a remote possibility.


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## honeyshack

I told them thanks but no thanks. As members of the co-op that is where our honey goes. Had we not been members...probably would have asked him to sweeten the deal so to speak. Alas it was not meant to be.
Cool to be asked though...was a first for us. As cattle producers, one is never asked. So this was cool


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## irwin harlton

from http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d&id=3a04bcb7ba&e=771dfa6e48
International Honey Market Update


by RON PHIPPS
President, CPNA International Ltd.
Co-Chairman, Committee for the Promotion of Honey and Health

A sea change has occurred in the American honey market with the recent indictments announced by ICE and Homeland Security for fraudulent entry of Chinese honey into the U.S. without paying the requisite anti-dumping duties. These indictments involve citizens of Taiwan and China, as well as a resident of California. Numerous companies and warehouses of honey are involved.


While this is the latest in a series of indictments for illicit circumvention of Chinese honey into America, it deals a major blow to the two-tiered market that has haunted and distorted the U.S. honey market for at least 7 years. The reason for the special significance of this indictment resides is the fact that for the first time the source of demand for circumvented honey, that is the packers who buy illicitly entered honey, are referenced.
Who are the buyers? Is this a big conspiracy between some of the largest packers? 900 containers over two years equals approx 9 percent of last years total market.......going to be interesting to say the least

A copy of the indictment can be read here http://www.groebfarms.com/Libraries/docs/Swami_Newsletter_-_November_30_2011_2.sflb.ashx total barrels listed on document 4544


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## Ian

>>Cool to be asked though...

Darn right thats cool!


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## The Honey Householder

Better yet you didn't need to accept that price. Thats the best.:wiener:


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## irwin harlton

Chinese honey ordered off the shelves in Britain

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-101494/All-Chinese-honey-ordered-shelves.html#


The honey wars are heating up

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/en/business/16171/business-in-brief-12-12.html

The customs agencies have also busted a business in the central city of Da Nang, and one in the southern province of Tay Ninh, for declaring their honey exports to be made-in-Vietnam.

Upon checking the exports, the officials found that hundreds of tons of honey were actually produced in China with the counterfeit Vietnamese origin labels.

Dinh Quyet Tam, chairman of the Vietnam Beekeepers Association, said Chinese honey has been repeatedly disguised as originating in Vietnam for export, seriously hurting the domestic beekeeping industry.

The fraudulent practice stems from the fact that Chinese honey is not favorable in some countries, since there are concerns regarding its quality and safety, Tam said.

Tam added that Chinese honey attracts a 221 percent tax in the US, including import, value-added, and anti-dumping tariffs, while its Vietnamese counterpart is taxed only 16 percent.

“Chinese exporters have to pay around US$6,000 in tax for a ton of honey, while the figure for Vietnamese exporters is only $450 a ton,” Tam said.

Huynh Thanh Binh, deputy head of the Dong Nai Customs Agency, also said the fake made-in-Vietnam labels help Chinese exports enjoy the preferential taxes granted to Vietnamese products under agreements reached when the country joined the World Trade Organization.


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## irwin harlton

Chinese honey recall in Britain a hoax



The UK honey recall report turns out to be a bogus report. It remains a mystery where it came from. Some think that the internet reprinted an old report from 2002. On Friday we were told about it, and it appeared on Monday on the DailyMailco.UK website as a current news story.



There is a new report that aired this morning on National Public Radio:



http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/20...rust-to-a-sweet-sector-fraught-with-suspicion



This segment was prepared prior to the indictments in Florida for fraudulently entering Chinese honey through false categories such as rice syrups.



Ron



CPNA International, Ltd.


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## irwin harlton

List of firms at FDA and their products ( HONEY ,syrup) subject to Detention without Physical Examination (DWPE) under this Import Alert 

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cms_ia/importalert_111.html


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## BeeGhost

Real simple, buy American honey at a premium. Give the commercial guys what they deserve. After all, third world countries dont have the inspections/laws/rules that we here in the US do, they practically get away with murder. 

Just the same as a guy offering local honey that he bought in large quantities from other states. Crooked.

If I run out of honey this winter (probably will) I will buy from a local Beek that I know, and I will NEVER touch honey on a supermarket shelf again, especially if it says Product of Mexico or Product of China. Dont need to. I know enough local beeks to get honey from, and I am not talking resale, im talking for personal use only.

Support American Beekeepers!!


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## sqkcrk

There isn't enuf honey produced in the USA to cover the demand. So, honey must be imported to meet the demand.


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## cleareyes

At 14:35 inside story on honey market in China...

http://www.bon.tv/20/104/7207-bee-hind-chinas-honey-market-biz-wire-dec-12.shtml


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## BeeGhost

sqkcrk said:


> There isn't enuf honey produced in the USA to cover the demand. So, honey must be imported to meet the demand.


From a commercial beekeepers point of view, could you say that if the price was extremely proffitable, that the large beekeepers would be able to expand their operations and sideliners could expand to commercial size, could the US possibly cover the demand for honey??

How much money per pound of honey would it take to get someone like you to expand and concentrate on honey production?? Just curious is all.

I know that if I had enough flatland (permanant bee yard) secured to even reach sideliner status, I would set that as a goal. I dont have enough time to even think about commercial status. But being in California and less than an hour from almonds, I could easily pollinate and then go for honey!! 

If you would like to PM me some info on what it would take to produce enough honey from right here in the USA, I would like to hear your thoughts!!

Merry Christmas!!................Jason


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## jim lyon

Possible? Lets just say it would be highly unlikely. Nationwide honey crops have decreased in the past 20 years from routinely over 200 million pounds annually down to maybe 140 to 150 million pounds on an average year. Meanwhile consumption in the same time period has increased from 200 million pounds to nearly 400 million pounds. That is just too big a gap to bridge even with much higher honey prices. The simple fact is there just arent enough strong healthy hives or enough good bee pasture to make it work.


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## BeeGhost

Wow, those are staggering numbers Jim!! Thanks for your insight!!


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## sqkcrk

Were there enuf beehives to produce enuf honey to satisfy US consumption needs, I predict that the price would drop. There is no way to keep the price artificially high enuf to make beekeeping attractive enuf for Americans to become beekeepers.

It may come down to why someone is a Commercial Beekeeper in the first place.

Were the price extremely profitible so many people would get into beekeeping that the price would go down, making for a less profitible price.


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## BeeGhost

Quite true, the supply and demand thing. But what is stopping the buyers from buying the cheaper "out of country" honey before buying the higher priced Made in USA honey? Not that I want that to happen, and as long as every US beekeeper is sold out of honey, then bring on the reserves.

And No, not everyone can be as hard working as a commercial/sideliner beekeeper. And to be quite frank, most people can start up a business of some sort, but not everyone wants to work with bee's!! 

I hope prices stay high, after reading some old threads of when honey was like .50 a pound compared to 1.55 or so a pound now!


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## sqkcrk

Try .15/lb, back in the 1960s.


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## Roland

Jim Lyon wrote:
The simple fact is there just arent enough strong healthy hives or enough good bee pasture to make it work.

The first can be solved with money, the second can not, so the limiting factor is pasturage. Just like real estate, only so much of it. Treat you landowners well, they may be more important than you think. We could be in for fun times when the funny honey gets shut down.

Crazy Roland


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## irwin harlton

Skamberg has a close association with Sue Bee ,so his market analysis maybe has a packer side bias.Sue started buying early last fall on the open market and is still buying. Canadian offerings increased in late January but still below US prices so next to no volume moving at those offerings White honey should command the same premium price on either side of the border, currently it does not


http://skamberg.com/honey.htm


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## irwin harlton

http://www.abfnet.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=177

Source: U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement

posted February 2012




ABJ Extra-News Feb 22, 2012 - International Honey Market Update



Below is a new Honey Market Report and attached is a stunning 4-page followup to the Jacksonville indictment. The amount of honey (entered through non-honey categories) seized for fraudulent entry is staggering. If that scheme was not stopped last year, there would have been 50 million pounds or more entering through that one scheme. But no one presumes that is the only scheme at play. The industry must presume that the authorities continue to seek to arrest those smuggling honey to circumvent U.S. antidumping orders.


http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d&id=0329ead12b&e=5229dfa01a

[PDF] the court case -chinese smuggled honey
Case 3:11-cr-00286-MMH-TEM Document 59 Filed 01/18/12 Page 1 ...
www.truesourcehoney.com/newsroom/.../2012-01-18-indictment.pdf

Current market prices are reflective of all the above and a very bad drought in South America


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## New Ky Beekeeper

Its just this simple. If people know your a local producer and the work / personal pride you put into your product, they will purchase your product at twice the price. Price is never been a factor in my limited experience. 

However, in Beef, the more educated the consumer, the more demand for my beef. 

Phil


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## jim lyon

Irwin: Thanks for the Skamberg update. No doubt honey inventories in the US are dwindling. The phone is ringing and offerings for even ELA is around 1.80, white a nickel or so higher. Heady times for sure for those with something to sell.


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## John Smith

Thanks, Indeed, Irwin, for the two market reports.

Thanks, Indeed, New KY Beekeeper, for this witness. Indeed, "Quality will be remembered long after price has been forgotten."

There is far more significance in Ron Phipps reports than just what meets the eye. The more you know and understand the more his reports reveal. It pays to read them repeatedly and really try to tease out just what is going on behind some of his statement AND his questions.

Thank you, Mr. Phipps. The more I learn about you the better I like you. Can't say that about everyone I meet.

Cheers,

JohnS


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## irwin harlton

True Source Honey
Commerce is initiating an anti-circumvention inquiry to determine whether imports of honey-rice syrup blends are circumventing the antidumping duty order on honey from China. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-12-13/html/2011-31937.htm
Federal Register, Volume 76 Issue 239 (Tuesday, December 13, 2011)
www.gpo.gov

Looks like they are running out of loopholes and countries to ship from, ...but they never seem to give up!

http://www.facebook.com/pages/True-Source-Honey/142598785755162?ref=search&sk=wall


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## irwin harlton

I am hearing 1.80-1.86, if your not a US producer you are not likely to be offered this price.
Seems the media attack awhile back on foreign circumvented honey, no pollen in honey on store shelves , and the disruption of illegal trade from China, which reportedly said an estimated 50 M lbs had been eliminated from the US market, has caused this.This and a short US honey crop plus a reportedly world shortage of White honey.A drought in South America has added fuel to the fire.All the planets,stars,ducks and rabbits have lined up for a change.
Canadian price offerings remain well below what U S producers are being offered and there is not much honey left in Canada.Producers in the southern hemisphere are being offered less than last years price compliments of the GMO problem in Europe and lack of competitive buyers for their honey.

I have often though about Ron Phipps remarks on market manipulation and manipulators in this industry and the effects of these.Timng of information released to the media on what kind of honey is on US store shelves coinciding with the elmination of a large illegal,circumvented supply of Chinese honey has done wonders.What had worked in the past by "manipulators" to Keep prices down seems to have been dicarded by the thought that the consumer is a lot smarter than he is being given credit for.The back bone of the US honey industry, the producer,producer packer is maybe no longer going to have to compete price wise with an inferior product...at least I hope we are going in the right direction for once


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## simplyhoney

2012 honey market outlook..............................HOPELESS. Even at 2.00/lb with rising fuel and operating costs, you would be better of at .80/lb in 1985 terms. Add to this the up and comming hobbists and sideliners along with our very own domestic commercial beeks importing honey and labeling as their own, bees are where you can make the money to survive, or sell yoru honey to gypsies. The commercial honey market is doomed.


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## soupcan

I am very intrested as to how you have arrived at this conclusion???
Please explain!


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## DigitalBishop

simplyhoney said:


> 2012 honey market outlook..............................HOPELESS. Even at 2.00/lb with rising fuel and operating costs, you would be better of at .80/lb in 1985 terms. Add to this the up and comming hobbists and sideliners along with our very own domestic commercial beeks importing honey and labeling as their own, bees are where you can make the money to survive, or sell yoru honey to gypsies. The commercial honey market is doomed.


Could you please cite an example where a hobbyist or sideliner has imported honey and labeled it as their own? Just curious since I've never heard of any of the beeks that I know doing that. In fact they're proud of the fact that the honey they have is *their* honey and not some imported slop. When it's gone it's gone, which is why it goes for premium pricing. I have people lining up to buy my honey and don't even blink at the price I sell it at. All they hear is "local, no chemicals used, limited supply, raw" == really good stuff.

I think that your statement about the commercial honey market being doomed is pure hyperbole. I don't know how you came to this conclusion.


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## sqkcrk

simplyhoney said:


> 2012 honey market outlook..............................hopeless. Even at 2.00/lb with rising fuel and operating costs, you would be better of at .80/lb in 1985 terms. Add to this the up and comming hobbists and sideliners along with our very own domestic commercial beeks importing honey and labeling as their own, bees are where you can make the money to survive, or sell yoru honey to gypsies. The commercial honey market is doomed.


spam, trolling spam


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## irwin harlton

Simplyhoney's prediction may be true, if we look in the past at record breaking honey prices they are short peaks in waves that go down as well as up.A rising tide that fails to lift all boats is not good.Those packers who lost their supply of cheap funny honey have to buy their honey somewhere.There are as many crooks and thieves in this business as there is on Wall Street and maybe more. The Market is manipulated accordingly to who wants what. Business laws., ethic's seem to fall by the wayside when greed enters the picture.Product of USA may be open to some one's legal interpretation

A certain Canadian broker who was ,is paying 1.65 picked up at producers dock in western Canada, is offering one,two or 10 drums to small Quebec producer packers for 2.25......maybe she should change her name to Rich Source ,like in True Source


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## John Smith

Simplyhoney is only making as a statemnt what Ron Phipps told us as a question. Mr. Phipps alluded to some very big honey packers getting caught in the squeeze, thanks to forward contracts. If you want to live in denial, that's OK by me, but the smart money will accept the 'heads-up' from Mr. Phipps and take action accordingly. 

If I had big contracts with big supermarket chains to supply honey, I would be hoping and praying that supermarkets are kind and forgiving entities. Forward contracts are pretty binding! It wasn't a few back yard beekeepers who closed down Enron, Citibank and Bear Sterns.

The best way to sell honey at the moment, is to hand it to someone with a fifty dollar bill in their hand.

In God we Trust. All others should pay cash. If you think gold keeps bankers honest, you are about to see what honey does to societies.

Happy is the man with his tank full!

Cheers,

JohnS


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## irwin harlton

http://skamberg.com/honey.htm
MARCH 2012 REPORT

Report seems to be right on the money, except for the prices being offered in Canada, sorta being manipulated , shall I say.Reliable report of honey sold at 1.90, PA, large packer


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## The Honey Householder

I'm hearing 1.95+, but I can't sell honey I don't have. Packers are fishing, but there isn't much extra honey out there.


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## Vance G

In 1984 ag loan on water white was 61 centss a pound and everyone surrendered the honey because chinee was coming in country in the forty cent range. It wasn't doomed then and not now.


simplyhoney said:


> 2012 honey market outlook..............................HOPELESS. Even at 2.00/lb with rising fuel and operating costs, you would be better of at .80/lb in 1985 terms. Add to this the up and comming hobbists and sideliners along with our very own domestic commercial beeks importing honey and labeling as their own, bees are where you can make the money to survive, or sell yoru honey to gypsies. The commercial honey market is doomed.


----------



## The Honey Householder

I can't remember $.80 honey in the 80's. Even cutting it loose to the goverment was only in the low $.60's.



simplyhoney said:


> 2012 honey market outlook..............................HOPELESS. Even at 2.00/lb with rising fuel and operating costs, you would be better of at .80/lb in 1985 terms. Add to this the up and comming hobbists and sideliners along with our very own domestic commercial beeks importing honey and labeling as their own, bees are where you can make the money to survive, or sell yoru honey to gypsies. The commercial honey market is doomed.


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## irwin harlton

From a friend in Chile S.A

http://www.infobae.com/notas/636275...el-argentina-por-110-millones-de-dolares.html

and or


http://www.radionacional.com.ar/english/22-business/38272-pirelli-co-will-sell-honey-.html

I am wondering how much"goodwill" WILL COST MY friends in S.A.


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## suttonbeeman

Would you believe I was offered. 40 cents/ lb for melter honey!!! Groeb must either think I'm a idiot or they are one! I didn't expect 1.75 but in range of. 80 to 1.25. After all it will blended and sold! Ill use it for feed!


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## cleareyes

Honey Market Report April 2012 China
http://www.unicorningredients.com/HoneyMarketReportApril2012.html


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## irwin harlton

Ernie says the market is at 2.00/lb http://www.groebfarms.com/companyvalues/newsletter.aspx


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## The Honey Householder

Packer called to lock in loads of 2012 crop at over $2. Told them I'll roll the dice since I've been getting $.22 more then offered. These are the same packers that low balled the beekeepers for somany years and some went out of business. Sorry I have to take care of the customers that has kept me in business, and I don't have to wait for my money. 
It's harder for the packers to work the beekeeper over when there isn't any honey in there warehouse.:thumbsup:


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## swarm_trapper

if Groeb says its over 2.00 a lb why don't he pay it? most every one is at 1.85-1.90 a lb on orange


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## woodedareas

DigitalBishop said:


> Could you please cite an example where a hobbyist or sideliner has imported honey and labeled it as their own? Just curious since I've never heard of any of the beeks that I know doing that. In fact they're proud of the fact that the honey they have is *their* honey and not some imported slop. When it's gone it's gone, which is why it goes for premium pricing. I have people lining up to buy my honey and don't even blink at the price I sell it at. All they hear is "local, no chemicals used, limited supply, raw" == really good stuff.
> 
> I think that your statement about the commercial honey market being doomed is pure hyperbole. I don't know how you came to this conclusion.


When you say no chemicals does that imply no treatment for mites? I am asked the question when I say no chemicals, but I guess i am using some chemicals for mite treatment. last year I said no chemicals as I did not use any thing to prevent or treat for mites. What do you suggest when I sell my honey if I am using treatment?
Thanks


----------



## sqkcrk

swarm_trapper said:


> if Groeb says its over 2.00 a lb why don't he pay it? most every one is at 1.85-1.90 a lb on orange


I used to hear this when I sold honey to packers in barrels. "We are paying $X.00 per pound for honey, but we aren't buying any." Then, when they do buy some, they don't pay what they said. Got to know how to play the game and make your best bet.

Like Honey Householder mentioned, having a buyer that pays when you deliver is worth something. Maybe a cpl of cents or more. And a track record of paying is good to have too.


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## UVBee

I was offered $1.95/lb for 200 barrels. Sold most of it locally for $2.25. From my personal experience and discussions, with prices of managing hives escalating and the increasing awareness of quality honey prices for my honey has only been going up the past two years. Kicking myself for selling at $1.50 a few years ago.


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## DRUR

woodedareas said:


> What do you suggest when I sell my honey if I am using treatment?
> Thanks


*For Sale, Honey* contaminated with various types of chemicals you wouldn't think about eating directly, but if you eat my honey you will get an indirect dose of the same chemicals.


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## swarm_trapper

1.95 for a load of white gallberry honey last week to a main line packer. ELA is at 1.75


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## irwin harlton

Billy Bee, alais McCormick, is offering 1.50 for 2012 new crop......she will get very little honey at this price


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## jim lyon

irwin harlton said:


> Billy Bee, alais McCormick, is offering 1.50 for 2012 new crop......she will get very little honey at this price


Lets hope so. Swarm Trapper is right on the mark with current offerings by major packers though that ELA price may be a bit low. I am sure that there will be a bit of a downtick as new crop honey comes in but I really don't see any reason that honey prices shouldn't continue trending up long term. To me the most encouraging thing is how steadily and consistently prices have risen giving consumers time to adjust without "sticker shock" reducing sales. I just recently saw 1# Sue Bee spun honey on the shelf at over $7.00 Wow!


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## The Honey Householder

As a producer and supplier. I'm seeing a greater demand for honey this year, because of last years shortage. I've had all my customer call looking for honey already, because they are sold out early this year. On top of my customers I've had a lot of new customers looking for honey too. So where does a supplier set there price for that kind of demand. 

I know packers have contracts to fill, but as a producer I've taken the risks for years with little pay. Times have changed and people want to know where there honey is coming from and the beekeepers are there to sell it to them. As a producer I'm glad to sell to those beekeepers.:thumbsup:


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## odfrank

There is a beekeeping and honey mania going on which might end as fast as it appeared. Take advantage of it while you can.


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## irwin harlton

very true odfrank,...has the market PRICE peaked?......HONEY HOT LINE 763 658 4193


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## Beeslave

Fires, drought, shortage before the season started, demand is up.......prices will still increase. JMO


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## sqkcrk

But not much if Argentina and oter major importing countries had good crops.


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## wildbranch2007

wixon was offering 1.85 a lb and not finding any takers. Since I'm short of honey the people I sell to have been looking around for it, one found 5 gal pails at 2.35lb the other at 2.50lb others have been looking and around and there just isn't much honey so I would guess the price will just keep going up.


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## sqkcrk

If those prices are for personal use they are way too low. Retail at $3.00 to $3.50 /lb is more like it. I bet the Food Distributors serviceing healthfood stores are getting close to or better than $4.00/lb wholesale.


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## Nature Coast beek

Just paid $2.60 per pound retail for some local honey (Central Florida) from one of the local, big commercial operators (+11K hives). Generic wildflower honey.


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## wildbranch2007

sqkcrk said:


> If those prices are for personal use they are way too low.


 no between them they order 4-5 thousand lbs each year.


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## The Honey Householder

$2.25 a lb in the barrel and buyers complaining, but I'll be sold out by Oct. Much be to high priced, because they all trying to get extra when they pick up.:scratch:


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## cleareyes

Honey market report June 2012 China
http://www.unicorningredients.com/HoneyMarketReportJune2012.html


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## irwin harlton

Heard Sue Bee was buying on the open market..........kinda early for them this year......maybe they know what the projected 2012 US crop is going to be


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## UVBee

2.85/lb for 50 drums of wildflower. 2012 honey crop is looking pretty bleak and prices are rising across the board from what we have heard. If you are fortunate enough to have made some honey or have honey on hand, I wouldn't part with it for anything close to last year's price. $2.50/lb or bust. 

@odFrank; where our industry has enjoyed its time in the spotlight and honey producers/beekeepers are benefitting from a more educated consumer, the price of commodities and sugars are at all time highs and are not looking like they are going down any time soon. Honey has traditionally mirrored the price of sugar. With the drought and dismal corn crop this year they are talking about an 8% increase in prices. 

I personally think it's great time to sell if you have the honey, but I wouldn't be too eager to let go of your inventory unless you get your socks blown off. I was offered $2.25/lb for everything I produced this year and whatever I had on hand. I held out and two months later, I was offered $2.85/lb. So far, patience has been a virtue.


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## sqkcrk

UVBee, what color was the 50 drums of woldflower?


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## jim lyon

UVBee said:


> 2.85/lb for 50 drums of wildflower......


Wow, hadnt heard any numbers like that yet. Major midwest and eastern packers are still around the $2.00 figure. No doubt there are some nervous honey buyers out there with some of the crop reports I am hearing. 
Actually sugar prices and honey prices have never really had much of a connection, like honey it is a unique and complex market. Current sugar prices on the board of trade are around .22 per pound which is about 25% below the .30+ cents level of just over a year ago. It could well be that sugar will become more affordable than corn syrup with corn prices reaching all time highs.


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## matt1954

I have customers coming to us and saying they will not buy from Wal-Mart, Target, Sue-Bee out of concerns there is funny-honey. Our prices have been 10.00 retail and 7.50 wholesale to large scale groceries who buy in bulk.


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## irwin harlton

Talked to an USA beekeeper friend I have know for over 30 years and who happens to be an past president of the AHPA, he stated that the bulk price had risen to $2.00, BUT RECENTLY DROPPED BACK to 1.95........he runs bees in Montana and he had been up there and said things were ugly.He calls honey harvesting and extracting an rodeo and boy it sure can be that.I sometimes think while in that process of pulling honey and getting the extraction done......this has got to be my last rodeo but it seems I always come back for more......a definition of insanity , doing the same things over and over but expecting different results


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## jim lyon

It really isnt unusual to see the honey price drifting lower this time of year. There are always some folks who are anxious to pay down a little debt and how can you argue with $1.95 in the hand. I did hear one troubling report from a major packer who said that they were getting some price resistance from a major customer who had always specified a domestic produced product (not sure if that includes Canadian or not). According to this report they were willing to price a cheaper imported product if prices get much higher. Yeah I know a lot of negotiating games get played but it is also important to remember that ultimately it is the consumer walking down the grocery aisle that has the biggest say in honey prices.


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## Trevor Mansell

Allot of this is supply and demand. Some of this is devaluation of the dollar because of our debt. $2.00 per Lb. honey is not unrealistic when you consider 4 or 5 dollar a gallon diesel . The fact is people are getting out of the bee business allot faster than they are getting in. People have to eat so demand is not going away anytime soon.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

some really nice post here, nice to see some really thought out post. Some of us (me) really appreciate the read.


----------



## sqkcrk

matt1954 said:


> Our prices have been 10.00 retail and 7.50 wholesale to large scale groceries who buy in bulk.


For what? Quarts? Pound jars?


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## irwin harlton

Honey Update:

August 2012

http://www.skamberg.com/


In early May 2012, the U.S honey crop projections were somewhat favorable. Moderate early spring rains were alleviating some of the moisture concerns caused by the very dry winter conditions in many of the prime honey producing regions of the U.S. Then in late May and early June, the rain just seemed to stop in many regions of the country, and intense heat started burning everything up.

Current 2012 U.S. honey crop projections are now for only a slightly better crop than last year's dismal 148 million lb. crop.


----------



## jim lyon

irwin harlton said:


> Honey Update:
> 
> August 2012
> 
> http://www.skamberg.com/
> 
> 
> In early May 2012, the U.S honey crop projections were somewhat favorable. Moderate early spring rains were alleviating some of the moisture concerns caused by the very dry winter conditions in many of the prime honey producing regions of the U.S. Then in late May and early June, the rain just seemed to stop in many regions of the country, and intense heat started burning everything up.
> 
> Current 2012 U.S. honey crop projections are now for only a slightly better crop than last year's dismal 148 million lb. crop.


2006 155 million pounds
2007 148 " "
2008 161 " "
2009 146 " "
2010 176 " "
2011 148 " "
I'm not real sure what the folks at Skamberg are expecting from the US crop anymore, the days of 200 million pound crops have been over for quite some time. The US honey crop has averaged only 156 million pounds over the past 6 years. Perhaps last years 176 million pounds was the aberration, if you take that out you arent much over a 150 million pound average, about what they are hinting 2012 might be.


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## irwin harlton

150 million lb crop in the US would still leave an importation of 275 M lbs to match consumption........


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## jim lyon

Good point. Five or ten million pounds one way or the other really dosent change the big picture too much. People love to complain about honey imports (and I do to the extent that I expect them to be pure and clean) but isn't it a good thing that the US now has an appetite for over 400 million pounds a year? Just raise a good quality product folks and don't stress about whether the shortage is being filled in by foreign production.


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## irwin harlton

and I do to the extent that I expect them to be pure and clean)

I think history tells us this not the case, a lot of inferior product imported, blended and sold

that the US now has an appetite for over 400 million pounds a year? the appetite maybe based on large percentage OF INFERIOR PRODUCT
The US producer is finally getting a good price for his premium product, we in canada however are not enjoying the same good prices


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## kokomodreamin

I think we will see a steady increase in the price. I had a long conversation with the owner of what is stated on their web site as the worlds largest honey processor, which i'll not name you can google , after I was told they were not buying dark honey here in sunny FLA. 
Seems all the imports they have been buying are dark, 75 to almost 85 mm and white honey is not to be found . He said he would'nt be suprised to see by years end prices of 2.20 a pound for good light USA honey and there is a huge demand for it . Of course you have to have strong , live hives and a necter source to get that , but it certainly looks stable for the future at least in the next year or two.
I can only hope that the beekeepers of other countries remember where the prices are and don't drive them down if they do get large crops in the future.


----------



## Jonathan Hofer

Anything new on prices? We haven't gotten a post in this area in over a month. Anybody selling? What is to be gotten for light honey?


Jh


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## sqkcrk

Got $2.00/lb in 5 gallon buckets for light honey from extracting earlier in the year and the same for darker honey just recently extracted.


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## Ian

Doesn't that sound familiar! ha ha ha



irwin harlton said:


> Talked to an USA beekeeper ........he runs bees in Montana and he had been up there and said things were ugly.He calls honey harvesting and extracting an rodeo and boy it sure can be that.I sometimes think while in that process of pulling honey and getting the extraction done......this has got to be my last rodeo but it seems I always come back for more......a definition of insanity , doing the same things over and over but expecting different results


----------



## cleareyes

Honey Update:

November 2012

http://www.skamberg.com/
A worldwide shortage of bees, increased consumer demand, and diminishing forage area for bees to gather nectar have all contributed to a worldwide honey shortage. Price offerings in the world market range from 4% to 12% higher than last year at this time. With the U.S. Customs and the Justice Dept. cracking down on "honey laundering", shipments of fraudulent honey entering the U.S. has slowed. This stopped a lot of the very low priced honey that was entering the U.S. market and has narrowed the gap on the two tiered honey pricing that we have seen for several years. Much depends on each subsequent countries honey crop as it enters the world market, with good crops helping to stabilize prices and poor crops driving prices higher.

Canada - The demand for Canadian honey is at an all time high and their prices reflect U.S. raw honey prices.


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## irwin harlton

"Much depends on each subsequent countries honey crop as it enters the world market,"

Buyers are , and have been playing the lower priced Argentina card for quite some time,reportedly future contracts have been bought on this 2013 years production.How much of this crop will be white is the big question?The industrial, bakery trade market is reported as being very competitive, so much so that some players are thinking of withdrawing from it cause there's little profit to be made.Argentina imports are up in Canada from last year.


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## Ian

Very dry reports coming from Argentina cropping reports, or the ones I have read anyway. One of the many reason why there is so much soybean production down there. The huge crop potential seems to have been squashed once again. If the cropping reports tells you anything. . . . 

BeeMaid suggests the honey market to be climbing from $1.75 /lbs. The suggested the big price discrepancy between US and Canadian honey to be narrowing to normal levels. Positive news in our honey market.


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## irwin harlton

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/international/honey-laundering

Wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of white honey coming out of Argentina.....the prevailing duty on Argentina honey has been dropped


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## irwin harlton

from NHB
International Bulk Prices

Total Average Bulk Prices of Honey Imported from Four Countries. Source: U.S. Department of Commerce, as reported monthly in the USDA National Honey Report using c.i.f. import value and therefore excluding U.S. import duties
2010 Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
Canada $1.63 $1.55 $1.58 $1.59 $1.54 $1.56 $1.65 $1.47 $1.56 $1.56 $1.65 $1.63
Mexico $1.30 $1.19 $1.28 $1.46 $1.47 $1.40 $1.45 $1.26 $1.38 $1.25 $1.28 $1.19
Argentina $1.36 $1.42 $1.41 $1.45 $1.46 $1.48 $1.48 $1.47 $1.45 $1.45 $1.45 $1.45
China $0.00 $0.00 $1.21 $1.20 $1.22 $1.27 $1.38 $0.00 $1.38 $1.51 $1.50 $0.28
Average $1.43 $1.38 $1.37 $1.43 $1.42 $1.43 $1.49 $1.40 $1.44 $1.44 $1.47 $1.14


2011 Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
Canada $1.71 $1.73 $1.75 $1.72 $1.69 $1.64 $1.89 $1.60 $1.67 $1.69 $1.69 $1.58
Mexico $1.29 $1.19 $1.51 $1.66 $1.66 $1.60 $1.46 $1.40 $1.17 $1.17 $1.31 $1.41
Argentina $1.45 $1.47 $1.50 $1.49 $1.51 $1.51 $1.52 $1.48 $1.45 $1.42 $1.45 $1.44
China $1.50 $1.52 $1.53 $1.55 $1.53 $1.53 $1.57 $1.58 $1.50 $0.00 $0.00 $2.08
Average $1.49 $1.48 $1.57 $1.61 $1.60 $1.57 $1.61 $1.52 $1.45 $1.43 $1.48 $1.63


2012 Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
Canada $1.67 $1.66 $1.63 $1.67 $1.68 $1.76 $1.77 $1.70 $1.75 
Mexico $1.29 $1.25 $1.28 $1.32 $1.48 $1.45 $1.40 $1.37 $1.32 
Argentina $1.37 $1.37 $1.33 $1.34 $1.36 $1.36 $1.37 $1.39 $1.37 
China $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $1.45 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 
Average $1.45 $1.43 $1.41 $1.44 $1.51 $1.52 $1.51 $1.48 $1.48


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## Joel

Thanks for the post Irwin - this is the type of in depth information that is useful. It is kind of scary the chinese honey, frequently the winner in the adulterated poor quality stock catagory, had more value in 2011 than other closer sources.


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## Ian

Consistently strong Canadian honey market

I love the $0.00 listed for China nearly year long


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## Joel

Ian said:


> Consistently strong Canadian honey market
> 
> I love the $0.00 listed for China nearly year long


OK Ian - I can hear you humming "God Save the Queen" as you type! I'll say that water white Canadian Clover really makes nice creamed honey seed!
I have to wonder when I see the $0.00 how much of the china honey is coming through other ports?


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## Ian

I hope not, other ports like where?


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## Roland

India, Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, etc,.....

Crazy Roland


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## rainesridgefarm

A packer that post in abj as buying and selling honey has just purchased 900,000lbs of chinese honey to blend. He is low balling anyone who calls them saying there is plenty of honey out there that they do not need it. I have a customer food manufacture that I am talking to that will make my honey mustard and he stated he was buying pals from them for 1.60 a pound. He sounded very suprised when I told him it was chinese honey he was buying.


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## Roland

Might that "un"said packer be in the Verona(Wis) area?


Crazy Roland


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## benstung

i dont think Pure sweet buys 900,000 lbs of chinese honey. they are much better then that


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## benstung

that 900,000 lbs was bought buy someone in the surplus business not in the honey business. it came in through CA


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## The Honey Householder

These big packers have big contracts to fill, and with honey @$2 they can't make enough $. Shelf price on 12 oz bears in the box stores selling at $3.60 can't bee real honey. Might just drag the bee though the syrup at that price.:digging:


----------



## Nick Noyes

The Honey Householder said:


> with honey @$2 they can't make enough $. Shelf price on 12 oz bears in the box stores selling at $3.60 can't bee real honey.
> I am against adulterated honey being sold as pure honey period. It needs to be stopped and has in several states. Which is great news to america's beekeepers.
> However using the above numbers there is $1.50 worth of wholesale honey being sold for $3.60 retail. That's $2.10 per bear to get it from the barrel to the shopping cart. I believe that can be done with 100% honey on a large scale.
> Correct me if I am wrong here maybe I missed something?


----------



## jim lyon

Nick Noyes said:


> The Honey Householder said:
> 
> 
> 
> with honey @$2 they can't make enough $. Shelf price on 12 oz bears in the box stores selling at $3.60 can't bee real honey.
> I am against adulterated honey being sold as pure honey period. It needs to be stopped and has in several states. Which is great news to america's beekeepers.
> However using the above numbers there is $1.50 worth of wholesale honey being sold for $3.60 retail. That's $2.10 per bear to get it from the barrel to the shopping cart. I believe that can be done with 100% honey on a large scale.
> Correct me if I am wrong here maybe I missed something?
> 
> 
> 
> It's pretty close Nick. Store markup is probably close to a dollar. That only leaves a little over a dollar for packaging, freight, commissions and packer profit.
Click to expand...


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## sqkcrk

Shelf price has little to do w/ cost to the bottler or wholesale cost to the seller. I have no reason to think that cheap honey isn't honey. What we think we know and what we really know are two different things.


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## max2

I see honey in one super market ( in Australia) selling very cheap and labelled " from local and imported sources".
On the other hand...we had a group of visitors from the US visiting ( from near Seattle) and buying honey off me to take home and telling me " we can't get this quality at home".
Don't shoot me - I'm only repeating what they told me>


----------



## sqkcrk

I hear the same thing. Maybe they don't know any beekeepers.


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## Ian

I have customers from Texas who say the same thing


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## Trevor Mansell

Roland said:


> Might that "un"said packer be in the Verona(Wis) area?
> 
> 
> Crazy Roland


That sounds more like Groeb farms rather than Pure Sweet.


----------



## irwin harlton

USA- HONEY UPDATE JANUARY 2013 http://skamberg.com/honey.htm

Contrary to the report saying "demand for Canadian honey is at an all time high and their prices are approaching U.S. raw honey prices. The 2013 Canadian crop should also be in high demand and bring prices comparable to U.S. raw honey prices",last National USA Honey report stated sales for Dec. of Canadian ranged from 1.67 to 1.87, less freight and duty.Some Canadian honey is being held in hopes of higher prices,equal to what US producers are receiving, and all the more power to those Canucks who happen to know what their stuff is worth.Canadian honey is typically viewed as foreign honey and lumped into the rest of the foreign honey category but their are Canadian producers who are members of Sue Bee and they will enjoy a US producer price


----------



## Ian

>>Honey consumption in the U.S. alone is well over 400 million lbs. per year. 

got to get that number up,


----------



## soupcan

12 oz bears ( store brand ) are on sale up the street this week for $2.79.
They were on sale last month for $2.39 as I think the normal shelf price is $3.19.
I think it very intresting with all the " to do " so to speak this past summer or fall with Costco doing a write up or article in there monthly magazine about there honey.
The article was intresting my wife & I thought as to how concerned Costco was and have a program called " Source Verified " and there label is stamped as such.
So a week or so ago I saw that Costco had moved the honey into a different place in the store.
I looked at both the 3-pack of 24 oz. bears & the 5# jug. The label clearly states product of the USA & Argentina & yes the label is still marked with there " Source Verified " stamp.


----------



## Ian

Costco sources a lot of its honey from BeeMaid, here in Canada anyway. BeeMaid honey is 100% Canadian honey. Source Verified works in this case


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## soupcan

Label makes no reference to Canada.
But Argentina & source verified???
So help me out here, how does that work???


----------



## Ian

BeeMaid honey sold in Canadian Costcos, 
I cant speak for US Costcos
BeeMaid honey is sourced varified, in fact not only that, but in a couple of years, all the honey BeeMaid sells will be from CFIA registered facilities


----------



## irwin harlton

``Source Verified " Interesting that packers,sellers will be able to trace honey back to individual producers, and probably back to the actual beeyard and hives it was produced in,mostly because of the large retailers like Costco and Wally World, who require this for insurance reasons.Also interesting that Bee Maid producers who fail to register with CFIA and,or pass CFIA stringent inspection regulations will cost them 3 cents a lb compared to those who do register and pass every year.
All for the betterment of those selling the product on the shelf,and some of the producers....needless to say this cannot be done(traceability) WITH CHINESE OR MOST OF THE FOREIGN HONEY IMPORTED IN THE WORLD


----------



## Ian

I would hope there is some kind of penalty for not complying with registration. Otherwise there would be no incentive to comply and the boards direction. I dont know how they will handle non registered producers after their deadline passes. I would assume they have an action plan to help retiring beekeepers make an exit without having to invest alot of time and money. And for the rest of us, I think the board is working towards the right direction in response to consumer demands. 
We produce very high quality honey here on the prairies, might as well exploit our to do so

As you say, good luck getting most Internationally Foreign traded honey to do the same


----------



## irwin harlton

If I were a betting man and there was such a thing as honey futures in the market place, I 'd say honey futures would have went thru the roof today on this news

http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/pr/c...pr0220_02.html

..............seems to be a lot of packing capacity or volume of sales that is no longer being filled with cheap Chinese honey...........for a long time I hope


----------



## sqkcrk

Got an "Unable to find the page you are searching for." message when I click on that link. What's the story Irwin?


----------



## oblib

Mark, 99% sure he refering to the many guilty pleas in federal court about honey laundering. Where they dodged 50+ million in taxes and will now pay 1 or 2 million in fines and promise to "play nice" now.


----------



## jim lyon

Great news for the many honest folks in this industry. The punishment needs to fit the crime though. This is the kind of thing that Truesource was organized to fight. Groeb's obviously had a huge unfair and illegal advantage over the competition.


----------



## irwin harlton

sorry http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/pr/chicago/2013/pr0220_02.html 

or jut go to http://www.truesourcehoney.com/newsroom/govt_releases_court_cases.php


----------



## Trevor Mansell

It seems like a good deal for Groebs , all they have to do is pay 2million in fines and not the 180million in duties, or whatever there share is.


----------



## max2

...and the loss of reputation?


----------



## sqkcrk

Where did all that honey go? Other packers? Eventually onto the store shelves or the cereal/bakery industry? I guess I should read the article, especially since Irwin reposted it for me, but, was any of this honey seized?


----------



## Trevor Mansell

max2 said:


> ...and the loss of reputation?


Thats Funny!!!!!!


----------



## soupcan

Loss of reputation???
I am getting old & forgetful but seems to me, I think just maybe, have not some of these names been in the news before in the past years for the same type of deal???


----------



## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Where did all that honey go? Other packers? Eventually onto the store shelves or the cereal/bakery industry? I guess I should read the article, especially since Irwin reposted it for me, but, was any of this honey seized?


Of the 200 or so used honey buckets I purchased a coupla years ago, they nearly were all Groeb's buckets. Since the buckets came from Raeford Farms I would imagine they were used on the "Honey Roasted Turkeys".


----------



## max2

soupcan said:


> Loss of reputation???
> I am getting old & forgetful but seems to me, I think just maybe, have not some of these names been in the news before in the past years for the same type of deal???


Get it - non to loose?


----------



## jim lyon

Trevor Mansell said:


> Thats Funny!!!!!!


It is funny to us Trevor but it may also be enlightening to their customers, many of whom I would hope are questioning what exactly have they been buying.


----------



## irwin harlton

so what does happen to the honey that is,was seized.I realize most of the volume was marketed ,sold.


----------



## Trevor Mansell

jim lyon said:


> It is funny to us Trevor but it may also be enlightening to their customers, many of whom I would hope are questioning what exactly have they been buying.


Jim ,if people or large companies are buying honey from Groeb ,they dont care what they are buying and this article wont make a difference. Ive been to Groebs down here and its nothing but a sea of Chinese honey ,full and empty drums. Ive been reading these articles about how much they import and how they get around duties for years. And you know what ,they are still in business and people are still buying there product. ICE or whatever dept it is needs to get serious and make them pay the full amount of duties they circumvented .


----------



## sqkcrk

irwin harlton said:


> so what does happen to the honey that is,was seized.I realize most of the volume was marketed ,sold.


Then the fines aren't high enuf. Are fines Business Expenses?


----------



## sqkcrk

Has honey become too expensive? Is that why the cheating is going on?


----------



## soupcan

NO JAIL TIME????
Intresting!!!
The chance to meet " BUBBA " in person & interact some how seems to put maybe some teeth into the law other than a fine might.
I would be intrested as to what kind of cash these folks are sitting on from there sales to be able to pay the fines & what not???


----------



## The Honey Householder

irwin harlton said:


> so what does happen to the honey that is,was seized.I realize most of the volume was marketed ,sold.


Irwin, I would think it was put up for auction and who ever bought it, sold it to Groeb's too.:digging:


----------



## The Honey Householder

really $2M is cheap, but why not write it off too.


----------



## matt1954

Coming from Federal Law ENforcement, we had to destroy the evidence after the trial. I am sure ICE has the same procedures. However, this is way too lenient for the level and organization of the crime. Problem is if they go to federal prison, or as we still call it, "club fed" they will probably get more business accomplished there than on the outside.


----------



## irwin harlton

However, this is way too lenient for the level and organization of the crime. Problem is if they go to federal prison, or as we still call it, "club fed" they will probably get more business accomplished there than on the outside. 

I agree, and I also think the problem is not going away permanently, just too much money to be made in selling this crap, interesting that past convictions, 
interruptions by catching suppliers , both small and large, (eg Wolf from Germany )and this final round up of these two crooked companies,where they actually come on board with the gov't investigators to co operate(they didn't have much choice), the slap on the hand fine,which I think is very small amount compared to the money made packing this junk will only be a short term fix,6 months,or a couple of years down the road the problem will be back and likely the same two companies be at it again

The Canadian connection,Don Courture,Premier Food Sales could do some serious jail time, all because it seemed so easy to sell this contaminated honey


----------



## sqkcrk

Does Criminal Conspirisy sound about right? Why isn't this a RICO case?


----------



## irwin harlton

Seems to be a real shortage of white honey, Odem is offering 2.00/lb and talking of forward contracting on 2013 crop for 1.85 .A large Eastern Canadian packer phoned a western producer,handler looking for 2- 3 million lbs.....it appears their may be 30 -60 loads left in western Canada, what they end up selling for is anyone's guess. I am hearing lots of things on the US border opening up for package bees,from a lawsuit against the gov't and its closed door policy to the Maritimes where there is a huge shortage of bees for Blueberry pollination.Seems Canadian Horticulture Society has presented a resolution to Canadian Honey Council to open the border to packaged US bees for blueberry pollination.......my ....what good high priced honey and Blueberries can and will do......maybe


The following information comes from the February 2012 issue (Vol. 25, #1) of “Hivelights,” the quarterly industry magazine published by the Canadian Honey Council.
Commercial beekeepers in Canada also have been noting greater annual colony losses than in the past. Current losses, an average 29.3 percent during 2010-2011, is about double what used to be the expected loss and 21 percent higher than the 2009-2010 loss (average 21 percent). Thus, Can-adian beekeepers are looking to outside sources to purchase queens and packages to restock their hives.
In 2000, Canadian beekeepers purchased around 60,000 queens (at $11.45 per queen) and around $750,000 worth of packages. In 2011, they purchased nearly 200,000 queens (at $18.00 per queen) and over $3 million worth of packages. Federal import records show that 70 to 73 percent of the queens are imported from the U.S. The rest of the queens come from Australia, New Zealand, and Chile. Since packages are not allowed from the U.S., they come from New Zealand, Australia and Chile, too.................seems demand is growing


----------



## Ian

Forward contracting on honey? how interesting, $1.85 is a good new crop price.


----------



## jean-marc

Ian I agree. At this price new beekeepers will e attracted to the industry. Those getting long in the tooth will be able to cash out. I am of the opinion that at $2.00/lb Cdn then it is possible to do share crops with other beekeepers. With prarie guys getting 150 pounds a season, that's $150 for the guys that own the hives and $150 for the guy who owns he honey supers and has access to forage. There is enough moneyin it for both parties. At $1.25/ pound it is just to lean.

It is interesting to see the blueberry gowers moaning about our industry. I wonder how much influence an outside industry will have on ours? Whatever happens it will be interesting.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Roland

I would be very reluctant to sign any futures contracts. With the feds fining Groeb, and infiltrating Honey Solutions, you can bet there will be more action to come. Cypher on what would happen to the price of real honey if the feds stop 1/3 of the "honey" used in the U.S.A. from being imported.

Crazy Roland


----------



## irwin harlton

Another Honey Smuggler Enters a Guilty Plea


http://www.truesourcehoney.com/newsroom/2013-03-12-jun-yang-plea-agreement.pdf


----------



## jean-marc

Good point Roland. Apparently there is not a lot of white honey in the world. Australia is short, Argentina as well. There do not seem to be any forces that would drive the price down. At this point it appears to me that everything is in place for prices to rise more. So why sign any forward contracts. Now if they wanted to advance money on a forward contract (highly unlikely) that could be attractive.

Jean-Marc


----------



## irwin harlton

A report on world honey trade
Honey: World Production, Top Exporters, Top Importers, and United States Imports by Country
and a breakdown on one US packers imports U.S. Imports of Honey from Argentina: Glorybee Natural Sweetener’s Honey Imports by Origin and Value

http://worldtradedaily.com/2012/07/...ney-imports-by-origin-and-value/#comment-1271

Interesting, I wonder what the origin of the UK honey was


http://worldtradedaily.com/2012/07/...porters-and-untied-states-imports-by-country/


----------



## frazzledfozzle

I wonder about the origin of the UK honey as well irwin :scratch:


----------



## jean-marc

Hmm, dunno, but if I were to guess the 5 letter word would strart with a c and end with an a. Kinda like their white indonesian honey and white indian honey.

Jean-Marc


----------



## swarm_trapper

Looks like the orange honey crop is going to be very short this year big buyers are offering 2.10 for white. I heard CA has to many bee to make it, and Fl this year most places didn't put out the nectar or have the warm weather needed to make the honey.


----------



## Trevor Mansell

Ive heard that a large packer in Fl is paying $2.22, for the orange.


----------



## loggermike

http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2013.04.22.15.30.archive.html

Wake me up when my .75cent check is ready.


----------



## Coffee_Bee

After the lawyer gets paid.

Seems like the beekeepers are actually proxy's for the big packers (Sue,Dutch,etc) stomping down the competition for all that imported honey $$$.
Kick them when they are down to make sure they stay down.


----------



## irwin harlton

"Kick them when they are down to make sure they stay down." Yes they should pay dearly for what they have cost the industry, the fines were a slap on the wrist compared to the profits made......heard that Grobe paid  good prices for the American honey and Canadian that he did buy . The industry will be alot better off without them .


----------



## Roland

I believe I read that Groeb and Honey Solutions must also(besides the fine), pay back the avoided tariffs of 40 and 20 million?
Correct me anyone if I am wrong.

Is it possible the Feds will try to keep them in business just to insure that they get the tariffs paid?

Crazy Roland


----------



## irwin harlton

I do not recall reading the avoided tariffs would have to be paid, (something to the tune of 180 Million dollars) would you be so kind as point me to where you read this


----------



## The Honey Householder

Packer calling to lock in honey for 2013 crop at $2.25. This only tells me they are short and/or price of honey is on its way up.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## sqkcrk

Or both?


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## jim lyon

This past week has been an active one for some honey buyers. Bids of $2.25 for white and more surprisingly $2.20 for ELA.


----------



## irwin harlton

http://www.law360.com/international...ce-sets-dumping-rate-on-chinese-honey-imports

Law360, New York (June 27, 2013, 4:31 PM ET) -- The U.S. Department of Commerce has set the preliminary anti-dumping duty rate on honey imports from China at $2.63 per kilogram, according to an agency notice released Thursday.


----------



## suttonbeeman

I've had calls the past week from NC TN and TX looking for bulk honey. Had to turn them down as we are not taking new customers at the present time. Currant price is ex white clover 2.95 in barbell. Water white locust/bush honeysuckle.3.95. Could have sold it all last week. Folks we have a mess I got a call from been friend in MI bees falling apart. Snotty. Brood no high mite levels. I'm talking 1400 hives. Hearing same thing from mud west and north west. Bees already going downhill. Remember neonnicginoids stay in ground and increase yearly. The bees came up from FL and made a box. Two to three weeks later they started to go downhill. Then they brought last load up...two weeks later and they looked good...after being in MI they start to collapse. Corn all around. My opinion...nictinoids in Henbit and other vegitatio. In and around fields. Looks like a disaster for a crop. Hearing SD looks bad and lits corn where sweet clover/alfalfa use to be...how high will price go and how much adulteration will we see?


----------



## Keith Jarrett

suttonbeeman said:


> ..after being in MI they start to collapse. Corn all around.


Rick, what kind of honey is made up in MI this time of year ?


----------



## jim lyon

$2.95, $3.95? News to me and I get a lot of calls as well. I have only heard positive reports up to this point from our area. This isnt really the place for this discussion but snot brood, not EFB? Looking at this logically if the bees were recently brought north and werent on location during corn planting and given the fact that the corn has yet to tassel. Where is the exposure? I am not saying there arent hives with problems, certainly those are disturbing reports, just questioning the certainty with which you are stating the cause.


----------



## Birdman

suttonbeeman said:


> I've had calls the past week from NC TN and TX looking for bulk honey. Had to turn them down as we are not taking new customers at the present time. Currant price is ex white clover 2.95 in barbell. Water white locust/bush honeysuckle.3.95. Could have sold it all last week.


At that price I would have to take on new customers.


----------



## sjvbee

Kieth... bass wood, clover and star thistle. Rick....I'm surrounded by seed corn here in michigan and we not seeing a problem. Have had similar problems before. What seems to have helped is pollen patty feeding


----------



## Keith Jarrett

sjvbee said:


> What seems to have helped is pollen patty feeding


Thanks SJVBEE, and pollen sub..... really.


----------



## Beeslave

Lots of clover blooming in the alfalfa fields within days of cutting around here. 7-10 days after alfalfa cutting many farmers are spraying it(alfalfa and blooming clover) with Cyhalothrin! Major loss of field bees and queen losses. All the pollen sub in the world isn't going to stop that. Still planting corn here also. That's 2 months of drift contamination!


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Beeslave said:


> alfalfa cutting many farmers are spraying it(alfalfa and blooming clover) with Cyhalothrin! Major loss of field bees and queen losses. That's 2 months of drift contamination!


Shannon, does many keepers up your way stay in contact with the growers and land owners around the bee yards
to prevent such losses or do they drop the bees and hope for the best?


----------



## Beeslave

Most of the farmers are aware of the bees in the area. They apparently don't care. One in particular can see my hives from the field he sprayed. He told me he THOUGHT the bees were far enough away.....300 yards is awfully close to be spraying a product that clearly has a warning about honeybees. Also they are applying to vegetation in bloom WHILE THE BEES ARE FORAGING. This is not the property owner where the bee are located.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Beeslave said:


> Most of the farmers are aware of the bees in the area. They apparently don't care. .


Well... there you go, there's your answer, It's up to the keeper to make sure that the bees are in safe forage area not anyone else. At the end of the day we as keepers are the ones that pay for it, the farmers are trying to farm, we on the other hand are merrily guesses when we cross pathes, other than pollination. Good luck and hope the bees recover.


----------



## Beeslave

So when I am out shooting my guns where I have permission it's up to the neighbor to make sure his cattle are out of the way of stray bullets?


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Do you see cattle flying over fences..... like bullets & bees ?

You are responsible where the bullets & bees go.


----------



## Beeslave

.......and the farmer is responsible for negligent use of a product. Natural pollinators and other non target species are purposely killed when an applicator misuses the product they are applying.

If that farmers cattle escape off his property then they are fair game?


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Beeslave;96686.If that farmers cattle escape off his property then they are fair game?[/QUOTE said:


> Yes, key word here "escaped off his property", try telling that to the farmer spaying his crop, Oh, my bees escaped (flew) over to your crop.


----------



## sqkcrk

I check this Thread to see what is going on w/ "Bulk honey prices and market outlook" No to witness another "bees and pesticides" argument.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

OK Mark....

http://youtu.be/1H-Y7MAASkg


----------



## Flyer Jim

sqkcrk said:


> I check this Thread to see what is going on w/ "Bulk honey prices and market outlook" No to witness another "bees and pesticides" argument.


So how's that working out for ya?:lpf:


----------



## sqkcrk

Just fine Jim.


----------



## loggermike

I check this Thread to see what is going on w/ "Bulk honey prices and market outlook" 

I call the honey hotline:MID US HONEY HOTLINE--1-763-658-4193


----------



## jim lyon

I hear ya Mark and I wont perpetuate the side issue but Rick did give us an intriguing honey price report and some relevant (though troubling) hive condition reports. Considering the fact that this isnt exactly a Beesource hotspot at least somebody is doing something to wake it up.


----------



## sqkcrk

loggermike said:


> I check this Thread to see what is going on w/ "Bulk honey prices and market outlook"
> 
> I call the honey hotline:MID US HONEY HOTLINE--1-763-658-4193


What did you hear?


----------



## Jed

sqkcrk said:


> What did you hear?


I just called it white honey is goin for 2.20 to 2.25...........yikes ..one guy out west 6 semi loads for 2.20


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## jim lyon

Jed said:


> I just called it white honey is goin for 2.20 to 2.25...........yikes ..one guy out west 6 semi loads for 2.20


He did good but 2.25 is the latest number I have heard from a major packer. At those prices, though, the biggest consideration needs to be given to the specifics of the agreement regarding honey grading, drum return and, most importantly who you are comfortable doing business with. A few cents a pound can become a minor consideration if you get docked or if you spend too much time looking at an empty mail box.


----------



## Jed

jim lyon said:


> A few cents a pound can become a minor consideration if you get docked or if you spend too much time looking at an empty mail box.


you hit it right on the head i dont even like it when they dont pay for a month


----------



## Beetrucker74

$1.85 for Light Amber in buckets small quantities, 5 or 6 buckets.


----------



## irwin harlton

"At those prices, though, the biggest consideration needs to be given to the specifics of the agreement regarding honey grading, d"rum return and, most importantly who you are comfortable doing business with. A few cents a pound can become a minor consideration if you get docked or if you spend too much time looking at an empty mail box


Precisely Why we we joined Sue BEE, tired of playing games with US
private packers....Canadian producers maybe a dime a dozen, but we prefer not to give it away, it is of the same quality if not better than US midwest honey,we get a fair return for, on , our investment in Sue, it certainly wouldn't be the highest price paid, nor will it be the lowest, it is however a good, fair price, drums exchanged, I pay the brokerage,They pay the freight from my door, those people know how 
to treat people.... or should I should I say members. Proud to be a member of Sue Bee


----------



## mnbeekeeper

irwin harlton said:


> Proud to be a member of Sue Bee


sue bee sucks in my opinion. funny at bee meeting in MN last week golden herritage "barkmens" wonder why they keep changing the name, was only saying 2.15. the games we play if we are not members to sue bee. but ill take my chances. hows the crop looking everyone..... not good enuff to drive price down i bet......


----------



## RichardTHB

What are the necessary requirements in becoming a "honey" broker.


----------



## jean-marc

The ability to purchase, store and sell honey. Deep pockets are especially helpful.

Jean-Marc


----------



## hpm08161947

jean-marc said:


> The ability to purchase, store and sell honey. Deep pockets are especially helpful.
> 
> Jean-Marc


I have no real knowledge.. but I suspect a "Gambler's Instincts" would be essential..... you know..... "Gotta know when to holdem, gotta know when to foldem"!


----------



## jim lyon

mnbeekeeper said:


> sue bee sucks in my opinion. funny at bee meeting in MN last week golden herritage "barkmens" wonder why they keep changing the name, was only saying 2.15. the games we play if we are not members to sue bee. but ill take my chances. hows the crop looking everyone..... not good enuff to drive price down i bet......


I think Barkmans have been pretty clear about the reasons for the change back to their former name and their is really nothing insidious about it all just the economic reality of where the control and ownership of their company lies. Nothing terribly surprising about a slight softening of the honey market as new crop honey becomes available. $2.15 is a pretty good price, I will be thrilled if it stays over $2.00. 2013 Crop? Who knows. There is reason for optimism out this way but at this point there is still a lot of work to be done before I will call ours a real good crop.


----------



## The Honey Householder

Jim, I haven't seen the market softening at all in the East, because of the rain. Packer calling me has quoted price at $2.25 and others have called to check the price and price being quoted at $2.15. So it depends on if the packer calls you or you call the packer on what you will get.:scratch:
Sounds like packers games to me.

Anyway you look at it. its not a bad price.


----------



## sqkcrk

RichardTHB said:


> What are the necessary requirements in becoming a "honey" broker.


Why do you ask? Do you have the desire to broker honey?


----------



## RichardTHB

Yes I do Mark and fully understand the necessity to a long term commitment to reach success.


----------



## irwin harlton

" So it depends on if the packer calls you or you call the packer on what you will get.
Sounds like packers games to me."

Beekeeping one of the last Bastille's of free enterprize and under tremendous pressure


----------



## sqkcrk

RichardTHB said:


> Yes I do Mark and fully understand the necessity to a long term commitment to reach success.


I have no idea what it takes. Look to those doing it for advice, I would suggest. Best wishes.


----------



## themrbee

Dutch Gold is selling drums for 1.90$ A friend told me


----------



## sqkcrk

Drums at $1.90 each? They'll all be gone by the time I can get there.

Or did you mean that Dutch Gold is selling barrels of honey at $1.90 per pound? I find that hard to believe too, unless that's Bakery Grade Honey. Which seems low to me too.

Better ask your friend for an explanation. I guess empty drums could be going for $1.90/lb, but that seems pretty high. That's close to $90.00 per drum.


----------



## themrbee

1.90 a pound for honey in the drum plus freight he just bought 2 drums


----------



## sqkcrk

Huh, how about that. I wonder what they paid for it?


----------



## themrbee

a lot less I would think


----------



## irwin harlton

Would this be processed,filtered,blended, honey or raw unproessed imported honey?


----------



## matt1954

coming from Dutch Gold, it would be filtered, processed and everything else. I spoke to a MD beekeeper with 3000 colonies, he was offered 2.95 lb in the barrel.


----------



## RichardTHB

matt1954 said:


> coming from Dutch Gold, it would be filtered, processed and everything else. I spoke to a MD beekeeper with 3000 colonies, he was offered 2.95 lb in the barrel.


Matt, lesson one for a "to-bee-broker" learn the jargon! Can I assume "in-the-barrel" is a food grade 44 gallon drum? Can I assume this price is "net" weight of the honey excluding "barrel" weight and will the barrel be priced separately as part of shipping costs. Sorry for all the questions, but I have to start somewhere. I thank you in advance of your educational answer. http://www.beesource.com/forums/ima...w.beesource.com/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif


----------



## sqkcrk

How many barrels did he sell at that price? One?

A 3,000 colony beekeeper from MD? Who would that be? There's enough room in MD for a 3,000 colony operation?


----------



## BMAC

Doesnt Dutch Gold import alot of their honey?

They have a pretty impressive packing place.


----------



## The Honey Householder

RichardTHB said:


> Matt, lesson one for a "to-bee-broker" learn the jargon! Can I assume "in-the-barrel" is a food grade 44 gallon drum? Can I assume this price is "net" weight of the honey excluding "barrel" weight and will the barrel be priced separately as part of shipping costs. Sorry for all the questions, but I have to start somewhere. I thank you in advance of your educational answer. http://www.beesource.com/forums/ima...w.beesource.com/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif


Who sells honey in 44 gallon barrels. Learn the jargon. Barrels are 55 gallons.


----------



## RichardTHB

Imperial folks use 44 gallon drums - US gallon is smaller. My mistake, should have made sure it was more clearly defined. Drum is the same size, but not Barrels that is a different measurement ......


----------



## BEESERIOUS

What is everybody getting paid for honey commercially.


----------



## matt1954

I talked with three today about Pepper honey. All said they were taking it but none would give a price yet. Told me it is too early and one said market is "too volatile right now". Whatever that means.


----------



## Trevor Mansell

$2.01 for ELA and $2.10 for white from Kansas.


----------



## jim lyon

I wouldn't call it particularly volatile. Prices always slip a bit when new crop honey starts coming in. Some buyers may hold off a while in hopes of a big crop but my guess is they will be disappointed.


----------



## swarm_trapper

what does the crop look like in the mid west? From what i have been hearing it started out great then didn't finish all that good.
Nick


----------



## jim lyon

swarm_trapper said:


> what does the crop look like in the mid west? From what i have been hearing it started out great then didn't finish all that good.
> Nick


That's pretty much my assessment as well. I have heard mixed reports around the Dakotas but the extended period of cool rainy weather took a toll no doubt


----------



## irwin harlton

HONEY PRICE UPDATES ON the Honey Hot line 763 658 4193....intersting , one load sold for 2.50, also some crop reports, not sounding good


http://bigstory.ap.org/article/cool-temps-hamper-dakota-bees-honey-production


----------



## RichardTHB

Trevor, as a newbie wannabee honey broker - could you give me an example of what is considered "bulk" quantities? In anticipation of a positive response I thank you in advance....
P.S. Are the prices FOB "packing house" ???


----------



## jim lyon

Honey is almost always bid in semi load lots (usually around 42,000 lbs, net) and are normally fob producer.


----------



## Trevor Mansell

RichardTHB said:


> Trevor, as a newbie wannabee honey broker - could you give me an example of what is considered "bulk" quantities? In anticipation of a positive response I thank you in advance....
> P.S. Are the prices FOB "packing house" ???


Im not sure what you mean by "Honey Broker" can you explain what that is?
What Jim said.


----------



## RichardTHB

Trevor, 

Basically, IMO a "Honey Broker" is someone who buys and sells HONEY. This activity may be by "direct acquisition" and held in storage or purchasing for a client per contract for direct delivery to end user. I hope this answers your question.

What Jim said - sounds reasonable on the UP end, but relatively sure there are many smaller sellers wanting to go through a "brokerage house" as well ......... Thanks for your input Jim


----------



## Trevor Mansell

RichardTHB said:


> Trevor,
> 
> Basically, IMO a "Honey Broker" is someone who buys and sells HONEY. This activity may be by "direct acquisition" and held in storage or purchasing for a client per contract for direct delivery to end user. I hope this answers your question.


I guess I don't understand why a large or small packer would go thru a broker to buy domestic honey.The only way a producer would sell you honey for less than what a packer is paying is if you picked it up with cash in hand ,especially for a semi-load. I wish you the best of luck and if you can make a dollar doing it then go for it, Im just not seeing the need for a broker of honey.


----------



## jim lyon

Trevor Mansell said:


> I guess I don't understand why a large or small packer would go thru a broker to buy domestic honey.The only way a producer would sell you honey for less than what a packer is paying is if you picked it up with cash in hand ,especially for a semi-load. I wish you the best of luck and if you can make a dollar doing it then go for it, Im just not seeing the need for a broker of honey.


Nor do I. Honey is expensive to transport. It must be warehoused somewhere and it must be miticulously sampled for color, moisture, taste and contaminants. After all of that there must be a margin for profit. Most end users prefer to strike up their own relationship with a producer. The export/import business is quite another situation, though. I currently have a pretty large inventory of honey that I am told would be quite marketable in Europe but that the impediments to getting it there make it a near impossibility. A broker that knew how to jump through all the hoops could be quite valuable in many such scenarios.


----------



## RichardTHB

Why deal through a broker? Is brokering a necessary added cost in today's market? Both good questions - and my answer could only be speculative at this point in time, since I am not yet a broker. So, your feedback is very important to me. 

Perhaps I can just create a "picture" based on what I know and ask for your thoughts/conclusions. Here it is:

Here in the USA, demand far outweighs production
A fairly big percentage of honey is produced by many "small time" beekeepers
Demand for honey is growing rapidly from a more diverse end-user (eg - Mead Producers, medicinal products etc etc.)
The swings in price fluctuations are quicker and larger in spread.
If you are "sitting" on honey, that you cannot move then, you are speculating or require a person (broker) who has the contacts and tools to move it for you.
The import/export market (something very familiar to me) is going to have a big impact on local pricing.
What would be the quickest method to getting to know the players in the local (USA) market - establishing a good re-pour/contact via "brokering" would be essential.

Best regards - Richard


----------



## Trevor Mansell

If you could do something internationally that would be your best bet. I dont know any producer that would pay you to sell there honey unless you are selling at a much higher price then they can get. I also cant imagine a packer paying more than the going price to a third person, but maybe Im wrong. Im not trying to be offensive but I think you are over thinking the whole process. I usually send some samples to people I trust ,ask what they are paying for it ,If I agree they send a truck and I load it. There really isn't allot to it. Trust is a huge factor ,especially at the current price of honey. Good Luck!!


----------



## sqkcrk

A friend sold three barrels of honey at $2.45/lb. The same buyer bought a semi load of MidWest Honey at $2.76/lb.

Anybody else hearing of such prices?


----------



## irwin harlton

Those prices are way high of what I am hearing of current market prices.No doubt we have a short USA crop again from all reports I am hearing.It is a wise US packer who supports his supplier.Bees and beekeepers have been a endangered specis for quite awhile and Cheap Chinese honey has seemed to have lost its "in," into the US market


----------



## James Kellie

Just sold 10 barrels at 2.50 lb to a small packer.


----------



## irwin harlton

Odem bought a loadin the US for 2.65, from the HoneyHot LINE....... 763 658 4193

Seems the honey hot line is running low on funding


----------



## Birds&Bees

The honey hot line could set up a facebook page for free, any other ideas?


----------



## irwin harlton

Up she goes............... Honey price in Argentina http://www.apinews.com/es/contenido/argentina-precio-de-la-miel


----------



## jean-marc

Irwin:

I opened the link but there was no information as to the rising prices.

Jean-Marc


----------



## irwin harlton

try reloading current page


----------



## Bear Fence Builder

RichardTHB said:


> Imperial folks use 44 gallon drums - US gallon is smaller. My mistake, should have made sure it was more clearly defined. Drum is the same size, but not Barrels that is a different measurement ......


A gallon is a gallon is a gallon. A gallon of honey is equal to a gallon of oil or water or any other liquid volumetrically. That is why a "gallon" is a standard unit of measurement. There is no bigger or smaller gallons.... I dont know who you mean by "imperial folks" either. There are two popular systems of measurements...English and Metric so if someone is using the English system all Gallons of all Liquids are the same in volume...they differ in weight/density ect. I too, have never heard of honey being sold in a 44 gallon increment.


----------



## sqkcrk

The Imperial Gallon = 4.546L. The US Gallon = 3.79L. And the little used US Dry Gallon = 4.40L. So, BFB, not only are there two different sizes of gallons, there are three. Many of the folks on this Thread are Canadian. They use The Imperial Gallon.


----------



## cg3

Maybe that's why weight is the "standard unit of measurement" for honey.


----------



## Daniel Y

I suspect that the use of weight has more to do with ancient times when volume was not consistent. Than of course you had false weights as well. But when honey was being stored in hand made clay pots unit of volume could not be used.


----------



## jim lyon

cg3 said:


> Maybe that's why weight is the "standard unit of measurement" for honey.


Yes, weight, in conjunction with moisture content, is the only true measure of honey. A 1 point variance in moisture content will make a roughly 1% difference in net weight.


----------



## sqkcrk

Daniel Y said:


> I suspect that the use of weight has more to do with ancient times when volume was not consistent. Than of course you had false weights as well. But when honey was being stored in hand made clay pots unit of volume could not be used.


Having worked w/ Coopers, I know that wooden containers have been standard in size for quite some time. I don't know about Ancient Times, but w/in hundreds of years.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

The Wikipedia entry for _gallon _is quite interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallon

Included is a table summarizing the trio of _modern _gallon standards Mark mentioned, plus a dozen _older _standards. Keep in mind that if you are collecting taxes (perhaps on alcohol) based on a given volume, there will be intense interest in having a _standard _that tax collectors and taxpayers alike can reference!

For instance, there is a 4.35 liter gallon described as "_Exchequer (Henry VII, 1497, with rim)"_. Note the 1497 date. FYI, the *Exchequer* is a government department of the United Kingdom responsible for the management and collection of taxation and other government revenues.


----------



## sqkcrk

wiki was where I got those measurements from.

It makes sense to me that if you are going to tax commodities then standard sizes of containers would be a good way to go about doing that.

A ferkin of beer maybe a different volume from a firkin of some other thing.

Did y'all know that a skep was a unit of measure too? A skep of coal for instance.


----------



## irwin harlton

Honey Update: from S Kamberg http://www.skamberg.com/

October 2013

Every year, the U.S. honey crop sets the tone for the world raw honey market. As the lions share of the 2013 U.S. honey is still coming in, early projections of a better crop than last year are fading away. Although some hot weather at the end of August into September helped add to the honey production pot, the total crop appears to be less than last years crop. The demand for this honey is very high,. Early price projections of 7% to 8% higher than last year for U.S. raw honey are now looking to be more like 10% to 12% higher.

Subsequent honey crops in the world market will follow the price trend set by U.S honey. The industry is still in a situation of exhausting each world market honey crop as it enters the market. This leaves no carry over honey to fall back on as demand strengthens. Any remnants of honey in the world market are held for higher pricing, usually until the next crop year. As long as demand remains strong, prices will remain firm.

The issues that plague the honey market seem to be world wide: Extreme weather conditions, Colony Collapse Disorder resulting in fewer bee colonies, and reduced forage area for bees to gather nectar for honey. This has resulted in reduced honey crops, and heavy demand for this honey has increased prices.

The 2013 Argentina honey crop is sold with the exception of some remnants that are being held for very high prices. The 2014 Argentina honey crop should enter the market in February 2014. This honey will be in high demand by U.S. and European packers. It is too early for price projections for this honey.

Brazil is producing more and more organic honey which is reducing the volume of the regular crop honey. Organic honey sells at a higher price than the regular honey. Prices for regular Brazilian honey will probably be slightly lower than Argentina honey, but the demand for this honey will be high which could increase prices as we move toward 2014.

The 2013 Vietnam Light Amber honey crop proved to be better than last years crop in both supply and quality. Europe has entered the Vietnamese honey market increasing the demand for this honey. Prices for this honey remained fairly level early on, but with Europe competing for this honey, prices have increased and less Vietnam honey will enter the U.S. market.

The 2013 India honey crop is in, and the crop ended up being about average. Demand for this honey is high. Most of the white honey is already sold. The extra light amber and light amber honey is selling quickly, and the prices for this honey have risen.

Most of the Chinese honey crop was being sold to Europe for the past several years with little legal Chinese honey entering the U.S. market. Europe is now experiencing the pains of purchasing Chinese honey that the U.S felt. Adulteration, substandard quality, and circumvention are rampant. Europe is now shying away from Chinese honey and again focusing on South America for much of their imported honey.

The demand for honey in the U.S continues to grow with some consumption projections exceeding 450 million lbs. The U.S. imported over 300 million lbs. of raw honey last year. With the average production of U. S. honey dropping from 200 million lbs. in 2002 down to about 160 million lbs. today, and demand increasing, continued price pressure for both U.S. and imported honey will continue.


----------



## max2

.....and the Australian Honey crop is expected to be below average due to a long dry season on the mainland and an extended wet season in Tasmania


----------



## Ian

Im hearing reports of good grain crop conditions in Australia, enough so that the price of wheat remains soft. Usually when there is good grain growing conditions there is good honey production conditions.


----------



## jim lyon

That late August/early September heat yielded very little out this way. Overall, some of the lightest fall hives I have ever seen. I would guess that over 90% of our production came in about a 3 week period in July. If I had a "way back machine" I would just strip and treat my bees starting the first of August.


----------



## Ian

If you ever develop that "way back machine" , Ill be the first to order!
Our honey crop sounds like it was exact opposite to your Jim. We had very little honey collected all July, and got blasted with honey production in August. Nice moderate honey flow in September to help pack the hives with stores


----------



## max2

Ian said:


> Im hearing reports of good grain crop conditions in Australia, enough so that the price of wheat remains soft. Usually when there is good grain growing conditions there is good honey production conditions.


Not sure about the west but I was travelling outback here and the grain there is lousy. Very dry - 60% of Queensland is critical.


----------



## Ian

Thanks Max!


----------



## mnbeekeeper

jim lyon said:


> That late August/early September heat yielded very little out this way. Overall, some of the lightest fall hives I have ever seen. I would guess that over 90% of our production came in about a 3 week period in July. If I had a "way back machine" I would just strip and treat my bees starting the first of August.


jim this year i did just that. and i couldnt be more pleased with how my hives look now. heavy as heck and jam packed in a double. fed them 3 gallons sucrose and 5lbs sub. got my early treatment on first week of august. and did the ox dribble last week. hope im set for winter. things sure look and feel a million times better this fall then last. thanks to all the good advice from the "pros"!!!

also i agree the honey came in fast and short\ mostly basswood. sold 38 drums for 2.15 a lb. no complaints here. i guess ill be around for another year!!


----------



## jim lyon

mnbeekeeper said:


> jim this year i did just that. and i couldnt be more pleased with how my hives look now. heavy ass heck and jam packed in a double. fed them 3 gallons sucrose and 5lbs sub. got my early treatment on first week of august. and did the ox dribble last week. hope im set for winter. things sure look and feel a million times better this fall then last. thanks to all the good advice from the "pros"!!!
> 
> also i agree the honey came in fast and short\ mostly basswood. sold 38 drums for 2.15 a lb. no complaints here. i guess ill be around for another year!!


Glad to hear it. Wish I could say I was one of the "pros" dishing out the good advice but I kept thinking I could see green in the purple alfalfa and we ended up spending the past month hauling in a bunch of empty boxes. August mite treatments are like gold in this business but like my signature says.......


----------



## mnbeekeeper

jim lyon said:


> Glad to hear it. Wish I could say I was one of the "pros" dishing out the good advice but I kept thinking I could see green in the purple alfalfa and we ended up spending the past month hauling in a bunch of empty boxes. August mite treatments are like gold in this business but like my signature says.......


sorry to hear that jim. nothing sucks more than bringing home empty supers. unless they are empty brood chambers i guess....

i have been fortunate in my life to yield great advice from those who are older and wiser. the trick is to listen, understand and then perform.


----------



## RichardTHB

The English (Imperial) gallon is not the same as a USA Gallon. To convert from USA Gallon to an Imperial Gallon multiply by 0.8327. So, that means a 44gal (imperial) drum could hold 52.84 USA Gallons, guess the USA equivalent drum would be 55gal....


----------



## sqkcrk

"Yeah, everybody knows that.":banana:


----------



## Ian

My drums are 45 gallon up here


----------



## The Honey Householder

A lot of those US 55 gallon empty drum in the warehouse this year. Does look like I will have to buy any next year.inch:


----------



## themrbee

jim lyon said:


> That late August/early September heat yielded very little out this way. Overall, some of the lightest fall hives I have ever seen. I would guess that over 90% of our production came in about a 3 week period in July. If I had a "way back machine" I would just strip and treat my bees starting the first of August.


Same Here


----------



## Keith Jarrett

mnbeekeeper said:


> . the trick is to listen, understand and then perform.


Very well said MNB, and on a side note, Ole Jimmy is still standing firm & tall after all these years of ups & downs in beekeeping enough said.


----------



## jim lyon

Don't want to leave the impression that the honey crop was a disaster....just a bit disappointing at the end. A good beekeeper must super optimistically, yet realistically, some years it pays off, some years it dosent.


----------



## beejeezers

I wouldn't know about bulk wholesale prices but here in the UK single source honey from a producers own hives retails at £5 per pound and it's worth it !


----------



## sqkcrk

What's that in US Dollars. Seems low for retail.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

£5 is currently US $8.09 using the linked calculator.

http://coinmill.com/GBP_USD.html#GBP=5


----------



## Beesknees01

Quality Honey will always be in demand, if you can't sell it then feed it back to your bees


----------



## irwin harlton

This may or may not be news, to some, seems to be fishy, age old problem of transhipped honey, wonder where it could be from?

http://www.apinews.com/en/component/k2/item/24077
VIETNAM - THE COUNTRY PRODUCES SIXTEEN THOUSAND TONS OF HONEY PER YEAR 
Featured Wednesday, 11 December 2013 07:55 Written by Analia Manriquez 


Be the first to comment! 
VIETNAM - THE COUNTRY PRODUCES SIXTEEN THOUSAND TONS OF HONEY PER YEAR 
The company DakHoney in the Central Highlands province of Dak Lak, reported that US $ 20 million entered by honey exports after their last shipment to the United States.

In 2013, production of the company reached eight thousand tons, representing half of the national performance of this item.

In the period from January to September 2013 Vietnam has sent the United States a total of 24,048 tons of honey or almost 50% more of the annual production of the country.


----------



## irwin harlton

Groeb Farms transformed into Natural American Foods ,headquartered in Onsted, Mich. and Smokey the Bear is our USA-made Grade A Honey. In partnership with the USDA Forest Service, we launched the Smokey the Bear branded-retail product in 2013. Smokey supports American bee-keepers by sourcing honey directly from US hives. And even more importantly, a portion of the proceeds from every sale of Smokey The Bear honey go to support the educational efforts of wildfire prevention. Being a good corporate citizen is important to us, and we believe that Smokey is one of the many ways we show it.


Many players with lawsuits and a new player in this game.I hope the dealer is still The American Beekeeper.Its going to be interesting how and when this all plays out, ....maybe it already has


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds

what is the average wholesale price for "American" honey? I am having a hard time getting 2014 prices for some reason.


----------



## jim lyon

Wholesale pricing is for larger quantities, often trailer load (40,000 + lbs). Current offerings are around $2.10 for white. $1.90 ELA. Assuming you choose to deal with buyers that pay on time with checks that clear.


----------



## DRUR

http://www.honey.com/honey-industry/honey-industry-statistics/
Average Retail prices http://www.honey.com/honey-industry/honey-industry-statistics/unit-honey-prices-by-month-retail/
Wholesale prices http://www.honey.com/honey-industry/honey-industry-statistics/unit-honey-prices-by-month-wholesale/

Take note those these are prices for processed honey, which I would take to mean bottled in what would actually be sold from the store shelf. Also, local markets vary from one place to another.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


----------



## irwin harlton

Bulk honey prices from Canada,Mexico,Argentina, and China http://www.honey.com/honey-industry/honey-industry-statistics/international-bulk-prices/


----------



## drone79

Packers are starting call.....average price of honey varies from.2.10 to 2.50....sold a load of amber for 2.50 a month ago....as of last week I was offered 2.25 and call before u sell...I talked to 3 different packers in the last 2 weeks....ect


----------



## irwin harlton

Odem International is forward contracting 2014 Canadian honey crop at 2.25(WHITE) If anything has taught me anything about forward pricing in the honey market, it , the price will be 2.40 or 2.60 come fall, and if the price drops, well the contract will not be worth the paper its written on


----------



## Honeyboy

Here is the USDA honey report for April.
http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/ams/FVMHONEY.pdf

Dan


----------



## sharpdog

irwin harlton said:


> Odem International is forward contracting 2014 Canadian honey crop at 2.25(WHITE) If anything has taught me anything about forward pricing in the honey market, it , the price will be 2.40 or 2.60 come fall, and if the price drops, well the contract will not be worth the paper its written on


I hope your right, there are a lot of positive market factors working for us. Was that Odem offer based on a truckload?
Luke


----------



## sharpdog

Woops....


----------



## irwin harlton

sharpdog said:


> I hope your right, there are a lot of positive market factors working for us. Was that Odem offer based on a truckload?
> Luke


Odem contract would probably specify a minimum one truckload quantity, and minimum color ,white


----------



## sharpdog

What prices are being offered in canada this year? As a beemaid member I won't know my price for over a year from now!
Luke


----------



## sharpdog

Double post, sorry


----------



## Haraga

Sharpdog what is the initial price from Beemaid?


----------



## sqkcrk

I have heard of semi loads from $2.10/lb to as high as $2.75/lb for Orange blossom. $2.10 or $2.20/lb for Midwest clover. No info on sources.


----------



## sharpdog

Haraga said:


> Sharpdog what is the initial price from Beemaid?


I'm not sure. It was .90 last year, I haven't called to find out this year yet.
Luke


----------



## Haraga

Sharpdog that price reminds me of the initial payment on spring wheat from the wheat board.


----------



## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> I have heard of semi loads from $2.10/lb to as high as $2.75/lb for Orange blossom. $2.10 or $2.20/lb for Midwest clover. No info on sources.


I think all the major buyers are in a bit of a holding pattern on new crop pricing pending the outcome of the current crop. I heard a report of one major player floating the prospect of a $1.95 to $2.00 initial offering. I think the direction new pricing takes is just as dependent on how many producers are willing to sit tight if bids trend lower. Remember folks, honey keeps.


----------



## Michael Palmer

jim lyon said:


> I think the direction new pricing takes is just as dependent on how many producers are willing to sit tight if bids trend lower.


Hasn't it always been that way? Those that need the money and sell early get less.


----------



## buzzedbees

sqkcrk said:


> I have heard of semi loads from $2.10/lb to as high as $2.75/lb for Orange blossom. $2.10 or $2.20/lb for Midwest clover. No info on sources.


What kind of volume? If you were selling just 1 55 gal drum, what kind of price would you ask?


----------



## sqkcrk

What I *heard* talked about was *semi* loads. That would be 70 some barrels per load. I don't sell honey in barrels. Sorry. And don't have my crop off yet, so I don't know how many buckets of honey I would have to sell, if I were to sell buckets.


----------



## jim lyon

Michael Palmer said:


> Hasn't it always been that way? Those that need the money and sell early get less.


Yes. No doubt about it. I always jokingly tell buyers that I will wait until the fire sales are done before I get serious about selling.


----------



## The Honey Householder

buzzedbees said:


> What kind of volume? If you were selling just 1 55 gal drum, what kind of price would you ask?



This week we sold small barrel orders for $2.75 a lb. and customers supplied there own barrels. We sold skids of buckets at $2.80 a lb. 

2014 crop looks better so far then 2013 did.


----------



## busybeeapiaries

Last I checked it was $2.15 , but supply is running low so it may go up. All our honey is bottled now so we have no more


----------



## rangerbees

*honey sell*

hello all just wandering how much whole sell honey is going for and where can u sell honey by the barrel


----------



## Davidnewbeeboxbuilder

*Re: honey sell*

National honey board saying $5 a pound in case for top quality starting off 2015 and head wholesale buyers trying to be cheap. Who wants to guess what price will be this year. I'm guessing a drop even though cost with be even.


----------



## jean-marc

*Re: honey sell*

I got a report of honey selling at $2.40/lb U.S. Seems awfully high. Not sure if source is accurate or reliable. This is for white honey in the drum. At that price this changes some of our income generating strategies. Any other reports out there?

Jean-Marc


----------



## jim lyon

*Re: honey sell*

The major packers are at $2.00 per lb. for white down here. The strong dollar is really working against higher prices.


----------



## jean-marc

*Re: honey sell*

Thanks Jim. I was doubting $2.40 U.S. but $2.00 is still a good price.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Wee3Bees Apiary

*Re: honey sell*

What is the current price? We are likely going to be 15 to 20% short with the crop this year in the Southern states (too much rain all Spring). I'm guessing $2.25 to $2.30 per pound.


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: honey sell*



Wee3Bees said:


> What is the current price? We are likely going to be 15 to 20% short with the crop this year in the Southern states (too much rain all Spring). I'm guessing $2.25 to $2.30 per pound.


Do you shop around for a buyer or just go with the one willing to buy all of it?


----------



## jim lyon

*Re: honey sell*



Wee3Bees said:


> What is the current price? We are likely going to be 15 to 20% short with the crop this year in the Southern states (too much rain all Spring). I'm guessing $2.25 to $2.30 per pound.


That would be nice but I wouldnt count on it. Just got off the phone with a major buyer who primarily was trolling for information on how this years crop prospects are looking. This is the wait and see time of year with honey buyers and I would guess many still have pretty good inventories from last years bumper crop of white honey.


----------



## Brian Suchan

*Re: honey sell*

neighbor claims that the packers are gonna drive the price down to $1.50 lb range. any truth to this??


----------



## Roland

*Re: honey sell*

I doubt if the price will go down. It appears that the flow of "funny honey" has been slowed. My guess is that we will begin to see an increase in domestic "funny honey" at these prices. 

It all depends on the "Gestapo"

Crazy Roland


----------



## Wee3Bees Apiary

*Re: honey sell*



sqkcrk said:


> Do you shop around for a buyer or just go with the one willing to buy all of it?


I could sell a truck load, but usually pack most of it for retail. I'm just curious about price if I do sell a handful of drums. I also was trying to get some activity going on this thread.


----------



## max2

*Re: honey sell*



Wee3Bees said:


> I could sell a truck load, but usually pack most of it for retail. I'm just curious about price if I do sell a handful of drums. I also was trying to get some activity going on this thread.


I'm only a small producer ( about 3000 kg since October last year) and the bulk price is not of much interest to me
I get enquiries for bees wax - again, I can't supply - but what is the going price?
I'm totally chemical free and have always been ( we have no Varroa) and I get requests from the US and Asia ( and of course Australia)


----------



## irwin harlton

*Re: honey sell*

http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf

HONEY MARKET FOR THE MONTH OF MAY
, 2015
IN VOLUMES OF 10,000 POUNDS OR GREATER UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED


In the month were imported 55,777 tonnes (+ 18.8%) by a total of 15.8 million dollars (+ 14.3%) at an average price in dollars per ton of 3,515 (+ 4%). In the year were imported 51,184 tons (+ 17.1%) by a total of 179.6 million dollars (+ 19.6%) at an average price in dollars per ton of 3,509 (+ 2.1%). All percentage values refer to the same period last year. Please download the attached document.
It appears the honey market continues to grow,demand continues upwards


----------



## John Smith

*Re: honey sell*

Don't forget about the capital required to buy a big honey crop. 

If the price doubles the packer will need twice the money as previously required.

Bankers are reluctant to lend for such purposes especially for honey as its profit potential is almost non existent. 

In this case the Packer's capital can only buy half the crop. So instead of being a hundred ton packer he is now a fifty ton packer. He just lost half his business to inflation.

The inflation/deflation cycles appear to be now out of control. 

The only way to get fair value for your honey now is to retail it yourself or at least work it into a large number of small wholesale buyers. 

It works for me.

cheers


----------



## jean-marc

*Re: honey sell*

John: 

Selling to many small wholesalers is a strategy to help reduce risk. 100 ton packers will remain 100 ton packers no matter the price of honey. He may not be able to purchase 100 ton at 1 go because of cash flow issues, but he will for sure try to keep the 100 ton going through his business. Beekeepers may have to wait a little longer for the money. Packers work on margin so 30% margin on a $10,000 order is better than 30% on an order of $5000. Packers always cry that there is resistance from buyers when prices increase. The truth is there is not enough honey around to meet the demand. I suppose new products are using honey and the natural aspect of honey is creating that demand. Other truth is packers make more money on higher priced honey, they use the formula of cost plus margin.

Jean-Marc


----------



## John Smith

That's all good (on paper) but anyone who thinks they are inflation proof is at risk of a nasty shock. 

Those persons who are inflation proof mostly live In Caves and mud houses.

Have you worked out yet just where half of that hypothetical packer's capital went?


----------



## beeware10

with our dollar strong it lowers the imported price. a weak dollar works for us. the world economy doesn't look good. I expect us crop to be low because of rain. just have to see how much other countries produce.


----------



## John Smith

I prefer to ignore what the rest of the world is doing in favor of what honey I have in relation to what my local market might be thinking.

People who seek out beekeepers at farmers markets are not "averaged" statistically. 

If we follow the official jargon a customer who buys a jar of honey is not likely to require another until this time next year. WRONG.!

The 80 - 20 rule if applied here would indicate that 80 percent of the honey is consumed by twenty percent of the population. 

Big time honey users are not interested in tiny bottles. They are not tolerant of diluted Or imported honey either. They see nothing funny about 'funny' honey.

And here's the kicker: Neither do they expect me to match supermarket prices.

Forget about the statistics! Go. Looking for the real customers.! They are out there looking for you!


----------



## wildbranch2007

beeware10 said:


> with our dollar strong it lowers the imported price. a weak dollar works for us. the world economy doesn't look good. I expect us crop to be low because of rain. just have to see how much other countries produce.


I called the honey hotline the other day to see if it still worked, the reply was 30 days old and they said no honey has been sold because there is no honey crop due to the bad weather. hope they only mean temporarily.


----------



## suttonbeeman

Got a call ftom a honey buyer looking for light amber honey. Sonce we pack most of our honey we seldom sell in bulk to big processors. He said honey prices were down and he was suprised. Light clover was selling for 1.80 and may go to 1.70.argentina has cut loose with 40 million lbs was the reason given. Since I dont sell much I asked why he called me....responce was he cant find any light amber or light honey. Thought that was same old story.


----------



## my2cents

Prices in Florida, at the Farmer's markets, have increased from $6 to upward of $9 Lb. for local honey. With a poor honey crop in Florida this year prices have increased.
People that want local honey do not mind paying for it. People that just want honey do not care about anything, other than the fact the bottle is labeled Honey. 
Some people eat hamburger in a tube and care less what they are buying other than Hamburger. Where people like myself, pick a roast and ash the butcher to grind it. An old timer said sell your honey for the price the market will bear.
My2Cents


----------



## sqkcrk

Yes, I did say that. And if your honey is not the most expensive in your market you are loosing money.


----------



## irwin harlton

There is currently a search for a point of stability or a bottom to the market. Because in past years Argentine honey contracts for January to June were renegotiated upward in price or shipments were substantially delayed, US packers bought very aggressively from the domestic and Canadian crops during the 4th quarter of 2014 in order to avoid repeating previous 2012-2014 shipping problems during the first half of 2015. Accordingly, purchases of US honey increased 13% in the period January to May 2015, compared to the same period in 2014, and prices were strong.


----------



## irwin harlton

Canadian honey currently being offered at 1.55 US....ITS A CASE OF OF HOW LOW CAN YOU GO, 1.55 US = 2.00 Can funds, SO SITLL GOOD MONEY For honey for some people, heard billy bee intial offer back in july or june was 1.85 , can anyone confirm that????? and I bet it , current offer is lower


----------



## jim lyon

That's what I keep hearing as well. Whether it's fact or fiction is anyone's guess. What is a fact is the Canadian dollar is worth somewhere around .76 American so it probably isn't too much of a reach to assume that American packers are going to be taking some American dollars up north (among other places) looking for some bargains.


----------



## irwin harlton

"Whether it's fact or fiction is anyone's guess."...Good point Jim, wondering if the offer was 1 load or 10 AND PACKERS NEVER LYE OR STRETCH THE TRUTH. I t will be interesting to see this unfolding and what the price will be ,come the final 3
months this year


----------



## pleasantvalley

jim lyon said:


> That's what I keep hearing as well. Whether it's fact or fiction is anyone's guess. What is a fact is the Canadian dollar is worth somewhere around .76 American so it probably isn't too much of a reach to assume that American packers are going to be taking some American dollars up north (among other places) looking for some bargains.


They sure aren't calling or answering the phone! I have some sold, but Mccormick has bought their entire years worth of inventory. I've heard of a few other beeks here in Alberta with a million + pounds and no takers. Seems like a bumper crop across the prairies.


----------



## high rate of speed

Private packer around the area making calls for $1.50 per lb.


----------



## sqkcrk

For White? I heard $1.80 for White. That loads of Chinese honey was bought in Canada, mixed with Canadian honey and is being sold to US Packers as Canadian honey, cheaply. And the devaluing of the Chinese currency has hurt the market too.


----------



## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> For White? I heard $1.80 for White. That loads of Chinese honey was bought in Canada, mixed with Canadian honey and is being sold to US Packers as Canadian honey, cheaply. And the devaluing of the Chinese currency has hurt the market too.


$1.80 sounds like a reasonable assumption given the current situation with the strong US dollar and probably some 2014 crop carryover. There seems to be a real glut of white honey available. I kind of doubt that $1.50 is going to get many takers, though. There seems to be a bit of a waiting game going on right now with none of the bigger packers ready to try to establish a domestic price. 
The Chinese angle makes a great story but it's probably all supposition given that it would be an illegal activity for which there have been prosecutions fairly recently.


----------



## irwin harlton

"ready to try to establish a domestic price".

none of them are hungery enought to DO that...the US economy sucks. even with all the bees are dying stuff, CCD, AND A WORLD SHORTAGE OF real honey, HONEY may not be just racing off the grocery store shelf in the USA........how big is the carry over....volume sales..... price cutting


----------



## irwin harlton

http://skamberg.com/honey.htm

Sue cannot even decide the size of of the US crop at this stage of of the game.... looks like the honey hot line might get hot


----------



## clyderoad

irwin harlton said:


> "ready to try to establish a domestic price".
> 
> ..the US economy sucks. even with all the bees are dying stuff, CCD, AND A WORLD SHORTAGE OF real honey, HONEY may not be just racing off the grocery store shelf in the USA........how big is the carry over....volume sales..... price cutting
> 
> ....do these people buy honey


US Imports of Canadian Honey YTD as of 8/21/15
White: 4.9 million Kg value: 21.3 million $
Extra light Amber: 182,000 Kg value: $890,000
Light Amber: 76,800 Kg value: $220,000
Other honey: 40,900 Kg value: $112,600
Comb and retail honey: 46,200 Kg value: $362,500
Flavored honey: 7,084 Kg value: $103,000
Organic honey: 28,200 Kg value: $216,000

US Total Imports ytd 8/21/15: $318.6 million
http://search.ams.usda.gov/mnsearch/MNSearchResults.aspx
search for national Honey Report.


The US economy sure sucks for honey exporters irwin, terrible place it is.
Any of your honey end up here?
Enough of the belly aching.


----------



## jim lyon

irwin harlton said:


> http://skamberg.com/honey.htm
> 
> Sue cannot even decide the size of of the US crop at this stage of of the game.... looks like the honey hot line might get hot


What is SHA's initial delivery price?


----------



## irwin harlton

Jim, last years initial; was .80 cents and another .30 dec 1, this year could possibly be similar, Sue also had a carry over, they probably usually carry 5-6 million lbs of packed honey inventory at any given time, so don't know if this is all packed honey. what did you get for honey last year?


----------



## jim lyon

We moved some ELA at 1.95 and some white for as high as 2.08 but still sitting on most of our 2014 production. As far as I know none of the major players have tried to establish a domestic price. Good thing honey keeps.


----------



## Barry

If I had the space, I'd buy a barrel from you! Good stuff!


----------



## irwin harlton

Your not the only one sitting on honey, heard two keepers in ND sitting on 2 million lbs


----------



## Ian

A semi load of white sold for $1.90 CND last week...
Other than that Im told the honey buyers are not answering their phones


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## jean-marc

Still wondering where Sue Bee is sitting at? Not much honey moving in Canada.

Jean-Marc


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## high rate of speed

We are sitting OK as a membership. Not sure what you are asking.


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## jean-marc

I meant initial price and what they think the final price might be. All I know is not much honey is moving. We sell a fair amount to other small producer packers. It brings stability to our prices and a place to sell too.

Jean-Marc


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## jim lyon

Seems like I heard their initial delivery price is around .80. Not sure how that might relate to the price the producer will ultimately receive after earnings are determined and all dividends are paid.


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## ryan

That sounds about right Jim. I think that advance is simalar to last year. I'm hopeful that we will end up somewhere near last years prices.


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## high rate of speed

Somewhere around a $¹.85 if that helps.


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## bw200314

Chinia are running there honey thru Vietnam so u will not know were it came from. Saw a graph showing that at a meeting is wat at two weeeks ago


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## Honeyboy

Here is the latest USDA Market prices.
http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/ams/FVMHONEY.pdf

Dan


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## The Honey Householder

Don't know where USDA gets their honey pricing report for pricing in each state, but they had a bad report for Ohio. Honey prices dropping to $1.50.:scratch: 

My Report from the beekeeper and honey producer in Ohio: Short to no crop across mostly the state this year.

Cheapest honey that I sold was at $2.80 a pound That price is 100% sold to the small beekeeper for packaging and retail.
That is a 1/2 crop at best, and we take everything. Those that leave 50-60 lbs to over winter have been feeding for a month now trying to get enough weight on them.


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## jim lyon

It's time to face reality with the current honey market. 

http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf

For those US honey producers trying to market a crop of white honey here is the relative data taken from the September honey report. Using September imports of Canadian white honey as a benchmark, here is where we are according to my calculations:

980,340 lbs. imported at a total cost of $1,660,214= $1.69 per lb. 

Another interesting tidbit. In the first 9 months of 2015 we have collectively imported over a million lbs. of honey PER DAY! 

This is the current unvarnished reality. If the consumer doesn't demand US honey (and there is no reason to believe they collectively care much about its origin) they will continue to get what they want.....cheap honey.


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## zhiv9

jim lyon said:


> It's time to face reality with the current honey market.
> 
> http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf
> 
> Using September imports of Canadian white honey as a benchmark, here is where we are according to my calculations:
> 
> 980,340 lbs. imported at a total cost of $1,660,214= $1.69 per lb.


With the drop in commodities pricing (particularly oil), the Canadian dollar has been falling steadily for the last two years. We were at par, now that $1.69US equates to $2.26/lb Canadian.


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## jean-marc

Somehow that $2.26/lb never reaches the pocket of the Canadian producer. Earlier I heard reports of $1.87/lb Cdn to producer.Later it dropped to $1.80 then $1.75. Now it is near impossible to sell. Some of that 2.26 goes to the assessment fee, some for trucking, the rest into the brokers hands or the packer. I guess packers have large inventories and do not want to commit to more incase the price should drop even further. I think there is a lot of honey sitting in U.S. beekeeper warehouses from 2014, top that with a good 2015 crop and packers think we should give it away. 

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

I'm told Argentina beekeepers are sitting on inventory while looking at their next crop, but Beekeepers are only selling as they need cash. With their countries out of control inflation they feel commodity in hand is worth more than money in the bank. and if that's the case, it puts the brakes on old crop liquidation. 
Our new crop is only months away, old crop is going to start to move one way or the other


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## irwin harlton

From International Honey Report nov 2015 ,by Ron Phipps

The general understanding, which is
developing throughout the honey world,
is if a point of stability in prices is not
reached soon, prices will continue their
steep decline and concomitantly there will
be a proportionate decline in beekeepers
in North and South America. A short-term
gain may be the progenitor of a mediumterm
shortage of pure, high quality honey.
If there is such a decline in the beekeeper
community, that could generate a long-term
shortage, high prices and the dominance of
honey production in Asia. Please see the top
10 world honey exporters for 2015 in the
chart presented below.

Market for Canadian producers is pretty limited, Europe is a no go cause of GMO's The US imported 360M lbs in 2015 and with a carryover to add in the packers have got their work cut out for them....................how low can the price go? Already some importers have been stung by earlier purchases of higher priced foreign honey.


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## gmcharlie

I sold at 1.75 and was glad to get it. Talked to FL beeks yesterday at 1.42 for gallberry. ( all truckload qty)


----------



## sjz

Current offer from Billy bee $1 per pound Canadian! How do you pay the bills with that!


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## mgolden

Was in a Bulk Barn yesterday and checked the price of their liquid honey by the pound. Price is now $6.49/lb which is up a $1 from 6 months ago.

Hard to rationalize against a falling price to producers


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## jim lyon

Sue Honey is selling a 5 lb. jug of "white clover" honey (it looks ELA to me) product of US and Canada for about $16.00. The math on that is pretty sobering.


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## sqkcrk

Dang. It must be 1/2 imported.


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## irwin harlton

Judging by the amount of honey imports into the US and Canada,and a large carryover in the US, we are into a race to the bottom for the price of honey, and the packer with the most can usually sell for the least.The Chinese have come along ways in their creative marketing of their adulterated false product.
To begin with, they no longer transship much honey thru countries that are know not to produce alot of white or any honey,They are using countries like Ukraine, Thailand, greece, spain, turkey.............known producers and exporters to gain access to the US high dollar value market.They are enjoying their fruits of their labor and enlarging their markets.Their resin technology is proven and exported.They can turn dark honey into white and add a little pollen by mixing their false product with the chosen country of origin honey and viola we have cheap false **** to sell It will take a lot of resources ,time and money included, to stop this nonsense, but it will be stopped.ABF,AHPA, large producers AND packers have united in a common goal.The Chinese in their past commodity market take overs, have first destroyed the market with price destruction .then are free to dominate it.The Chinese have been in this world honey market for over 40 years , they have learned not to get their prices too low, just low enough to grow their market and return a good profit so more false product can be refined and sold.


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## Ian

sjz said:


> Current offer from Billy bee $1 per pound Canadian! How do you pay the bills with that!


Had a beekeeper tell me today Billy's offer is $1.5, but not buying as of now


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## sqkcrk

Heard that before. "What is your price for White Honey?" "We pay $2.25 for White, but we aren't buying any right now." lol


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## irwin harlton

High prices are cured by lower prices,low prices are cured by higher prices

http://issuu.com/irwinharlton/docs/fraud_suspicion__spanish_honey

Interesting that this slop packer was in such a rush he forgot to check for antibiotics in some of his first special blends.Economic adulteration and fraudulent labeling , just one part of the big Chinese picture that seems to be growing bigger


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## grozzie2

The document in your link refers to imported honey with the 'Canada No 1' label. I've been told recently that those labelling rules have now changed, and there is now a 'No 1' to be used on imports, and to use 'Canada No 1' it must be 100% Canadian sourced honey. I haven't been able to verify this yet, but, apparently this has come about thru the CHC folks is what I was told.


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## irwin harlton

CHINA changes countries for their transshipped honey quicker than CFIA can change label laws,How long has Billy Bee's chinese/Canadian blend been around, thats how long Ive been telling them to change that label. Lec McCormicks a Canadian honey packer where the cheques come from their US head quarters, i know, cause I got one


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## dgl1948

Sask. company now exporting honey to China.

"Nipawin’s iconic sweetness could soon be getting some shelf space in China.

One of Nipawin’s biggest exports, ice honey, is being shipped off across the globe to China, available in their grocery stores for purchase.

Hanfood International Trading Company Group is taking steps to export domestically made Nipawin ice honey overseas to Beijing where Canada’s clean food industry standards are a raging trend.

The pollution and food standards in China cause huge health problems, which is why the country is looking to buy their food elsewhere, like Canada where our food standards are one of the best in the world. 

Hanfood’s Executive Vice President Jack Upshall said that it’s Canada’s food standards that have China wanting to buy more Canadian food products.

“The Nipawin area in particular, there’s no industry there and so anything that’s grown or developed there is considered pollution free and it’s Canadian, so we have very high standards here,” he said.

Nipawin’s ice honey exports about five million pounds of it annually already, before the export overseas. 10 percent of Canada’s domestically produced products come from the Nipawin area including ice honey, Saskatoon berries and wild rice.

Vice President Upshall said that they will be keeping the ice honey business in the hands of small business owners or producers.

“It cannot be industrialized. We feel very strongly about this. It must come from these producers at the local level,” he said.

If the export of ice honey goes well they hope to start export Saskatoon berries and wild rice as well over seas to China through Canada’s CP Rails after the appropriate railway updates have been made. However, there won’t be news about when Canada’s CP Railways will be ready for that kind of shipment till February.

“This is a new market for Saskatchewan. It can be very beneficial not only to the province but to producers in industries like berries, honey and wild rice,” said Upshall."


----------



## Ian

What is ice honey ?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Ian said:


> What is ice honey ?


Creamed/crystallized honey. Here is the Hanfood Icy White Honey product page:
http://hanfood.ca/honey/


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## jean-marc

There is more and more Canadian Honey going to China. I expect that within 2-3 years a substantial amount of Canadian honey will make its' way there... more than 25% of total production... so says my crystal ball. Canada has a very good reputation. I know of 1 Chinese fellow who is having honey packaged in Canada and reselling in China. A second who is in the process. I know of a packing plant that was built by a Canadian for that very purpose. I see good things coming in the not so distant future. The key will be to survive this current glitch in the market. China and the Middle East are the future for Canadian honey.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc


----------



## Ian

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Creamed/crystallized honey. Here is the Hanfood Icy White Honey product page:
> http://hanfood.ca/honey/


Basically creamed whipped honey


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## Haraga

They could be waiting a long time for CP Rail. I suspect it will go out on a truck.


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## suttonbeeman

jim lyon said:


> Sue Honey is selling a 5 lb. jug of "white clover" honey (it looks ELA to me) product of US and Canada for about $16.00. The math on that is pretty sobering.


Why anyone would belong to sioux is beyond my imagination. With what they retain as operating capitol and how they pay you come out in the hole. This coop shoukd be run to benefit its members and promote their honey but they import and got implicated in the 5 part series on honey laundering of importing chinese sweetnen (its aganist my principals to refer to it as honey) their members believe what they hear and dont think.


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## ryan

Oh boy.


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## jim lyon

So I'm wondering who the "they" is that Rick is referring to. Isn't Sue run by a board of shareholders elected by the membership? Can't "they" decide what is ultimately best for the coop?


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## irwin harlton

We live in interesting and arduous times, as do the bees we keep.So when oil was $140 a barrel and honey 2.25/lb, were they overvalued?
How can we go from a world shortage of honey to what appears to be a surplus in such a short period of time
How much of a carryover of honey is there in the US? How much does China actually produce and consume?How much adulterated product does it transship into the market?


As of OCT 2015 we in Canada imported $35M dollars worth, 13.9 M lbs in 2015.What will the ratification of the TTP and TTIP bring us in honey prices and export markets


----------



## suttonbeeman

jim lyon said:


> So I'm wondering who the "they" is that Rick is referring to. Isn't Sue run by a board of shareholders elected by the membership? Can't "they" decide what is ultimately best for the coop?


Yep They are..i wont get into it here but some buy honey then sell to sioux at a profit...import broker of I may say so. Not sure what they do today but i know enough in the past to know in my opinion and many others too that they dont look out for their members best interest.


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## Nick Noyes

Could you give me names of the individual doing this? Past or present.
I would like to get it taken care of.


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## sqkcrk

suttonbeeman said:


> Yep They are..i wont get into it here but some buy honey then sell to sioux at a profit...import broker of I may say so. Not sure what they do today but i know enough in the past to know in my opinion and many others too that they dont look out for their members best interest.


What's wrong with that? Seems like someone doing business. Buy something and sell it to someone else and profit from the deal. What's wrong with that? Sioux Bee is a cooperative. By law they can buy from outside sources as much as half of what
they sell. The other half must come from member honey producers.

Must be something I am missing here.


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## Nick Noyes

I guess I am confused. Are the directors corrupt or the Sioux employees? Still waiting on names either way.


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## babybee

I'm heard a few days ago that Smitty Bee bought some Argentine honey for $1.00 and said they can buy all the Canadian honey they want for $1.16.


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## irwin harlton

Well, I am sure he can find some cheaper stuff than that if he really wants to look,(chinese)I'm sure he will be expanding his sales with these new low cost prices and be adjusting his price accordingly on these new cheap sources so he can gain even more market share.
The race to the bottom has begun


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## irwin harlton

All honey sold internationally is no doubt currently being tested for what is occurring here.Economic adulteration

https://issuu.com/irwinharlton/docs/fraud_suspicion__spanish_honey


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## sqkcrk

irwin, how are "honee" prices doing? People seem to have their panties all in a knot over "honee".


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## suttonbeeman

Nick Noyes said:


> I guess I am confused. Are the directors corrupt or the Sioux employees? Still waiting on names either way.


Im not calling names...but go read the 5 part series on honey laundering. Sue claims they do not buy chinese honey. Then they try not to. When the reporter traces honey from china to a third world country to port in Jacksonville Fl then to Sioux City dont you think they knew where it came from. If a newspaper reporter can figure it our surely sue can. In 2000 Kroger quit buying my honey for one reason, the buyer got his job to fill a quota and didnt understand the differance between my honey bear and sue other than they were paying sue 83 cents a 12 oz bear while mine was 1.35. Two months later at the Wisconsin state meeting Wally Dienelt (sp) asked me why the bottom had fallen out of the honey market. Price had gone from 1.50 to .80. Most of us knew why...sue was lowering the price to get market share. I then took off my abf directors hat, my honey board hati was representing the honey board giving talks on bottling and marketing honey)and explained sue was dropping their price. I gave a apples and oranges speach comparing if you sell to packer a who pays in 30 days and if you belong to sue who will pay you over the next year but retain (not sure of amount now)somewhere around 10 pct of your GROSS for yhe next 8 or 10 yrs. What could you do with this money? You must compare all this when looking at price you receive. Sue members in attendence were not hsppy and denied selling honey that cheap. Problem was the guy at Kroger had showed me their price and I knew I was right. The next week i received calls from ABF president, honey board chair and others as Sue was mad as hell. But you must compare payment arranagements to get amount rec. A few yrs later at the ABF Louisville meeting a Sue official told me my figures on what they were right but yhey could not let it be known at that time. So my question is if you are a sue member why the hell are you importing honey from China? And number two...should you not be getting a PRENIUMN PRICE FOR YOUR HIGH QUALITY HONEY? If you tske all things in consideration I doubt you get anymore than someone selling to a packer.


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## Brian Suchan

Kudos to you Sb, because it's the real truth. If your a big beek they can act as your warehouse. But if not, there's no advantage to being a member. They're the price leader on the shelf and it looks like garbage. You would think with all the honey the peeps are sitting on up there in the upper Midwest!!! But They can buy it cheaper elsewhere, just like all the big packers!!!


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## ryan

Supply and demand of raw bulk honey is the only thing that will raise or lower prices of raw bulk honey. 

Really?
Retains of 10% for 10 years?
Sue caused a 50% price reduction ?
What major packers payed more than Sue last fall?


----------



## The Honey Householder

Now if you are a sue member, does that mean they have to buy all you product. I was talking to a beekeeper that is a member and he sent in a load of melter honey. He said they wouldn't pay for it. Where does 20 ton of blending honey end up? When we sold to the big packer. We would have a few barrels of melter that we could working in, of course at a much lower price, but would get something for it. Hard to compete with a company that gets free honey. Looking at what sue bee has on the shelf and the price is the top $. The market must have went more to darker honey. Where did the nice light honey go in the stores? We still produce white honey, is the consumers afraid what they are buying if it's to light????


----------



## babybee

I am not a sue member, but I think it's 7% for 7 years. On year eight you would get the first year's retainer. That's what I have always heard.


----------



## ryan

I don't think Sue even accepts melter honey from members. I think a disposal fee might even be in place. I thought the color was pretty good the last few years when I checked. 

The $ in retains is less than 1/2 of any recent estimates in this thread. Sue is a legitimate co-op that puts lots of good product out. 

Sue Bee is a big part of the high honey prices over the past decades. Sue Bee and its members have paid in millions of dollars to fund anti-dumping and anti-circumvention campaigns.


----------



## suttonbeeman

ryan said:


> I don't think Sue even accepts melter honey from members. I think a disposal fee might even be in place. I thought the color was pretty good the last few years when I checked.
> 
> The $ in retains is less than 1/2 of any recent estimates in this thread. Sue is a legitimate co-op that puts lots of good product out.
> 
> Sue Bee is a big part of the high honey prices over the past decades. Sue Bee and its members have paid in millions of dollars to fund anti-dumping and anti-circumvention campaigns.



Hate to tell you but Sue has done more harm to prices than any packer other than Groeb in my opinion. I am friends with several big packers and Im not going to call names but sue has not protected and acted in beekeepers best interest. Mr. Householder is right...go taste of a mid west beekeepers honey then taste sue...what the ×=%÷ did they put in the jar with that good midwest honey? Even if they retain 5 pct of 5 yrs gross how much money is that for a big beek and how much could they make investing that in THEIR business? But tell me how much has Sue paid for honey the last 3 years since you dont know when you deliver. But thats OK Mr Househokder and myself will keep delling more GOOD honey to the consumer at much higher prices than Sue members get. Last two yrs Ive sold my orange for 2.45 and 2.35 per pound in barrels. How much did sue members get for theirs? If I packed it I got about 2,500 per drum. A coop member should get between thise two figures if the coop is working for the beekeeper.


----------



## The Honey Householder

Rick,
Does sue bee buy orange blossom????? Unlike other packers they don't buy melter honey from there members. The member that told me that sue bee didn't paid for it last year. He told me by him being a member he can't even sell it to me.:scratch: What is sue selling bakery grade honey for???


----------



## ryan

Opinions are like feet, everyone has a couple and, except for mine, I think most of them stink. We have paid huge piles of money to boost the bulk price of honey in the U.S. and the efforts worked. We start every day trying to pay the beekeeper (ourselves) more for honey in the barrel. 

Your facts about about the retains are still wrong, too high even after you cut your original statement in 1/2. I would love to have heard that "apples to oranges" speech you gave about Sue Bee way back when.


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## Ian

Word up here Sue is paying big money to the membership


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## ryan

Honey Householder

I think I get where you are headed on the melter honey thing. It's a small market to sell that stuff. The supply was greater than the demand, therefor the price got lowered all the way to zero. Perhaps there is some of the stuff in storage from years past? Just a guess, I have no knowledge of it.


----------



## ryan

Yes Ian

There is always a lag time with Sue. So our pay out for production is usually whatever the price was 6-12 months ago. When prices were on the rise we were under the spot price for honey. It went on like that for several recent years. Now I'm still getting the price from 6-12 months ago. Members never saw the high spot price we all heard about, but I'm probably not going to see the lows we hear about either. We all hope it stabilizes before this next crop comes in.


----------



## The Honey Householder

With melter honey at zero. I'm needing to break my pig and buy some loads for these bakery honey contracts. Really what is the going price of bakery(melter honey). $.25 or maybe $.50 what is feed molasses or HFCS going for. Really if sue can't use it. The member should be able sell or give it for the same price sue does (FREE). What is the spot price on melter 6-12 months ago????


----------



## irwin harlton

International Honey Market

by RON PHIPPS
President, CPNA International Ltd.1
Co-Chairman,
Committee for the Promotion of Honey and Health

“Resin technology applied to honey creates products
which cannot be labelled as ‘Honey’”



http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d&id=78b929f20f&e=5229dfa01a


----------



## jean-marc

Thanks Irwi. I appreciate Ron Phipps and his insights into our industry. I like that he is to the point. Looks like there is some cause for slight optimism, but as the man says "do not underestimate the machinations of honey circumumvention." So now we have some fancier machines to identify fake honey. The circumventers will fiure out a way to cheat.

I always wondered about chinese honey consumption and there was answer, the chinese eat way way more honey than they produce. Half of all store shelf honey is adulterated with 70-100% alternative sweeteners, wow. Evidently the supply is short on a worldwide basis, yet we have to compete with adulterated honey on price. Based on supply and demand beekeepers should be doing very well, yet now it is almost impossible to sell good honey irrespective of price.

Jean-Marc


----------



## JRG13

So basically, what you're saying, is all the Chinese honey being dumped is all fake?


----------



## Fusion_power

The article points out that adding some flocculants to absorb antibiotics then running it through a ceramic filter yields a clear white syrup which is nearly pure simple sugars and water. This syrup can then be blended with honey in another country to pick up the flavor and pollen profile. The result looks a lot like honey, but can no longer be identified as originating in China. Since China is producing honey for about ten cents per pound, they can then sell it in the international market at a profit even at prices half the market rate. The net effect is to depress the price of honey in all other producing nations, especially in the U.S. and Canada.


----------



## jean-marc

A lot of the chinese honey is fake. Even the chinese honey consummer in china is complaining because so much of it is fake on their store shelves, yet the rest of the world has to compete with this "honey". The article pointed that out as well, very eloquently, I may add.

As a producer it is very frustrating.

Jean-Marc


----------



## irwin harlton

Dishonest brokers and packers here and abroad,make it far too easy to buy .95 honey and make a huge profit. In Spain ,local beekeepers were paid a premium , perhaps to help blend this product.The packer in Spain who sold packed product into Canada and had some recalled because of Chloratetraphonal tells me it is his customer who decides what to pack and where to sell.ALL honey on the market being sold is being tested, everyone buying knows what they are getting.The price alone should make the buyer draw the right conclusions.The World shortage and the high price has actually promoted these counterfitters,fraud artists who tarnish the good name of honey


----------



## jean-marc

There is no doubt that the buyers know what they are getting.

Jean-Marc


----------



## irwin harlton

aah but do the buyers really know what they are getting............ blend in a little real honey with pollen, or just add the pollen,not doubt some of this funny honey is easily distinguished when in its pure form, and hard to sell. It's when it' IS blended and brought up to a certain standard .. that fools the best of the buyers... It takes a corrupt packer to do this and the profits are huge


----------



## Roland

JGR13 wrote:

So basically, what you're saying, is all the Chinese honey being dumped is all fake? 


From my observations, the above is most likely true. If it comes in a closed head drum of the color of the year, tastes like [email protected]#$, (it tastes the same no matter what neighboring country it comes from), and the price is too good to believe: it most likely is NOT honey. No person of average intelligence could possibly believe it is real honey.


Crazy Roland


----------



## Fusion_power

The problem is not the pure syrup, it is the blends. 1 pound of good honey for $2 blended with 2 pounds of junk honey from china at $.70 per pound adds up to $3.40 for 3 pounds. Almost all packers are going to take a hard look given that 3 pounds of good honey is $6.00 per this example. These numbers are not exact, but they illustrate the reason cheap ultra-filtered honey is such a problem in the market.


----------



## irwin harlton

I'm hearing Canadian honey is moving, 1.50 range, to Canadian buyers....bills have to be paid


----------



## sjz

Who did you hear was buying at 1.50? I couldn't get an offer over 1.30 this week. Pickup was for August.


----------



## irwin harlton

Well, its only what i heard thru the grapevine .................... maybe our eastern buyers have different prices for different suppliers, much like the previous owners.I would bet that this change in market prices would change their marketing strategy on importing funny honey ,they no doubt are being offered a lot of Canadian honey at fire sale or cheap prices due to conditions in the US market....but then again maybe their management will remain idiots and keep importing honey.The previous owners supported Canadian producers 100% AND EXPORTED Canadian honey as well.I remmber one on year the previous owners had 100 's of semi loads lined up around their plant and were paying demurage on the unloaded semis..................Jack Grossman must of had one hell of a good banker, present owners couldn't organize a 3 car parade and don't know half of what grossman did about selling honey


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## irwin harlton

The billy bee Facebook page responded to a question about why it was blending canadian honey with total bs about a "shortage of Canadian honey".

Billy Bee
For over sixty years, we at Billy Bee Honey have been committed to providing you, our consumers, with the taste that you love and the quality that you trust. The current Canadian Honey crop is insufficient to meet all domestic and international demand.

In order to continue to provide you with the consistent highest quality of Canada No. 1 White Honey, we have chosen honey from Argentina which is of the same quality and very similar in taste, colour and floral source.

The product label information will identify the source of our honey as a "Blend of Canadian and Argentine Honey". Billy Bee will continue our strong commitment to being "Canada's Favourite Honey". In order to continue to provide you with the consistent highest quality of Canada No. 1 White Honey, we have chosen honey from Argentina which is of the same quality and very similar in taste, colour and floral source.

Lies and distortion of the truth, just to benefit this so called Canadian packer


Of course on this web site ,https://www.facebook.com/BillyBee/?fref=ts, they make no mention of their brand name " NATURAL HONEY FARMS" which packs a blend of Chinese and Canadian honey.This multinational corporation has choosen to import honey into a country which is a net exporter of honey and to make and pay for their expansion in this industry on the backs of Canadian beekeepers...........................................they certainly have not chosen wisely.Their management lacks knowledge and brains but they certainly got greed


----------



## Ian

I know many Billy Bee Beekeepers who are going to call in to remind them that THEY WERE NOT buying Canadian honey this fall...


----------



## irwin harlton

Funney how things change, a dramatic drop in world prices for top graded white honey and Billy Bee is buying in the Canadian market ,mind you I don't think this supposedly called Canadian division of McCormicks international has very deep pockets, several years ago, last time I got paid , before they had bank to bank transfer in place, the cheque came from their head office in the US..................... so really they are a Canadian company in name only, funded by headquarters


----------



## woodedareas

Interesting thread but I can't find myself using a respirator mask and gloves to administer a toxic chemical. It may work but my health comes before the bees. Every year we add more toxic chemicals and I do lose hives from mites but I don't want these chemicals in my comb as I have a difficult time selling honey to customers without disclosing the toxic affects of chemicals I have introduced. I will continue to review OA. There will be some adverse affects on our health as with all of the other chemicals we have been using. For now my health comes first..


----------



## sjz

Billy Bee has proven through there actions, to be unsupportive of Canadian beekeepers in every way. From blending of imported honey with Canadian not because of a shortage of honey, but for profit. If they offered a decent price they would get all the honey they would need. Instead of consistently offering the lowest price.


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## irwin harlton

McCormicks is more like a opportunist than a honey packer, from the 75 miillion they paid for the brand name BillyBee, no packing plant . so they had to build one.They thought this buisness was going to be a walk in the park and they have found out otherwise . They seem to think they can build their buissness and reap big profits on the backs of Canadian beekeepers and the good name Canada#1 honey has,.....Canadian label laws suck big time
It is long over due to put a stop to their stupidity, we should be calling for a duty tax on all imported honey,we don't need any imported honey in this country and if current market conditions prevail in the US, Canadian jobs, livelyhoods and buissnesses will be at lost


----------



## sjz

We have fought with CFIA for over 10 years for proper labelling. They don't care about quality for consumers anymore then the packers do. Really makes one wonder about everything in our supermarkets.


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## irwin harlton

the battle has begun here
https://www.facebook.com/Canadian-b...micks-imported-Chinese-honey-321798484672543/

Truth will rise up and crush lies and deceit


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## jean-marc

Pretty soon we wll have to start calling them BullyBee if they keep up their tactics.

Jean-Marc


----------



## irwin harlton

It appears it has been left to 8000 Canadian beekeepers to change the label laws and stop the flow of imported honey.Never under estimate beekeepers and the Canadian honey industry to educate the public and to make change... for the better


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## grozzie2

irwin harlton said:


> the battle has begun here
> https://www.facebook.com/Canadian-b...micks-imported-Chinese-honey-321798484672543/


The key to something like that facebook campaign, get it spread far enough and wide enough that it creates an uproar. Worked for French's with ketchup last week, as soon as it hit the papers, French's ketchup was back on the stock list for loblaws.

If one can create enough uproar on social media with something like this, wonder how much it takes to get loblaws to pull the Billy Bee blend off the stocking list ?


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## irwin harlton

Here's what a US packer had to say about current market conditions
Part of the reason for suspended buying is because of large raw inventory levels packers were/are carrying. After a number of years with short crops and low inventories packers looked to increase their raw inventory. With better crops the last two years and with prices so soft packers are now trying to reduce/eliminate their higher priced inventory. With the volume of surplus honey out there indications are that packers are in no hurry to buy and when they do it will be at reduced levels with probably no more than a 45-60 day supply on the books. Right now there is simply too much honey available on the world market. Whether $2 honey encouraged increased world production or crops have just been better can be debated but estimates are that there is up to 200M pounds available (including 40-50M each in US & CN). The good news is that demand and sales are still strong but unfortunately supply caught up with it.

Here in Canada ,Canadian buyers seem to think they have a capitive supply,offering lower prices than what little honey is moving or has moved into the US.Odem has been quoted as saying the market has collapsed.MY THINKING is there is something Fishy going on when we go from a world shortage to a surplus in such a short period of time and I point the finger at China.When you see Spain exporting packed honey into Canada and you see the tests from Germany showing its a chinese blend,......how much more of this is going on


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## Ian

What's the chances that Chinese export has been adulterated with syrup? The packers importing this honey should be carefully watching their step. 
Retail shelf prices have dramatically reduced...


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## irwin harlton

We started a petition that targets Billy Bee to stop buying imported honey with a single signature, a week later we now have 33,800 supporters and growing!!
Please support us now if you haven't already!

https://www.change.org/p/gail-wyant-mccormick-com-stop-impo…


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## zhiv9

here's a working link for the petition:

https://www.change.org/p/gail-wyant...nadian-beekeepers-we-want-pure-canadian-honey


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## grozzie2

The subject is getting some traction now.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2616766/all-canadian-honey-petition-gains-10000-signatures-a-day/

The article does point out the issues with the 'Canada No 1' label being confused by consumers as an origin label vs the grade label it really is.


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## sjz

I think this petition should be against CFIA, their to blame for not updating labelling laws, and for not properly testing for origins and adulterated honey. I would like to know how much honey would get pulled off shelves if proper testing was done.


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## irwin harlton

I will agree that, this particular company followed all the laws, ,,,the average Canadian consumer does not know that Canada #1 is a grade classification and not a statement of country of origin or product of Canada.I don't know if CFIA has enough people and resources to look at this Chinese funny honey and its impact on canadian and world markets.I have been assured by people fairly high up in this organization that they seriously look at all Chinese imports but then if you manage to leave this loop hole around for over a decade, i have some doubts


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## Ian

Labeling laws are complex, .... Canada has just finished a lengthy 10 year suit to have another country abide by trade laws requiring the agreed upon use of labeling. 

China is not part if NAFTA, but their imports are conveniently falling under the same. We need to be careful how this argument is framed to avoid neighbouring feuds and to keep our eye on the problem at hand together. 

Asian numbers export numbers and best case production figures don't add up... We gotta nail down that funny hunee....


----------



## suttonbeeman

Just had someone tell me SueBee newsletter told their members to expect 1.30 to 1.45 for honey this year. Anyone heard this? For the life of me I cant understand how a growers coop cant get more from their honey as the profits from packing should be shared with members.


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## The Honey Householder

Rick at those kind of prices WHY would you be a member? 
The talk of honey price dropping has got me confused. I just can't produce enough for demand at the $2.65 a lb price. Retail price in our area is at $8 a lb. 
I had one member say they would rent me there hives this year for production already.
Packer think they can get the honey given to them for next to nothing. Cut comm. production in half for a season or two and see where the price goes then. My last load to a big packer shipped out 2/15/2003 and I have never looked back. No more 30 day credit line, no more them telling me what they are going to pay ME. Since then I can afford a new trucks, builds, new extraction set up, forklift, and I get 4-5 months a year off. 

An extra $1 a lb goes a long way ($40K a load). Thinking of setting up a packing line for another $.75 a lb ($35K a load). Need more smaller packer to take a piece of the pie.:kn:


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## ryan

I have not received any such letter from Suebee. I expect the price at Suebee to end up slightly higher than the open market price, kind of like it was last year. That will be 2 years in a row the Suebee price will beat the open market price. 

BTW if any one wants to buy my first 10 loads of North Dakota white honey for $2.65 FOB cash this August, by all means let me know. I'll quit Suebee in a flash.


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## Keith Jarrett

Is this what you were waiting for Nick? lol


----------



## jim lyon

ryan said:


> I have not received any such letter from Suebee. I expect the price at Suebee to end up slightly higher than the open market price, kind of like it was last year. That will be 2 years in a row the Suebee price will beat the open market price.
> 
> BTW if any one wants to buy my first 10 loads of North Dakota white honey for $2.65 FOB cash this August, by all means let me know. I'll quit Suebee in a flash.


....or even $2.00
https://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf


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## Nick Noyes

ryan said:


> BTW if any one wants to buy my first 10 loads of North Dakota white honey for $2.65 FOB cash this August, by all means let me know. I'll quit Suebee in a flash.


That would be your first 200 tons , right?
I haven't received my letter yet either.


----------



## ryan

Yes Nick, that's right.
Just so I'm clear. Packing, marketing, and retailing the honey you produce is a great business plan. In years when the price is down it is an especially good plan. Having said that, the plan doesn't work for everyone. 
Best luck to all this season. 
Ryan.


----------



## babybee

In the last week or so I got offered 2 dollars for 15 loads but mine is spoken for so I turned the buyer on to another beekeeper. The price isn't as low as the talk.


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## sjz

I was offered .86 cents or 1.13 Canadian last week! I maybe be able to last two years at these prices. After that bankruptcy would be only option. Most of our supply's come from USA. With exchange operating cost are getting too high for these prices.


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## jean-marc

Babybee, how do you explain such discrepencies in the price? Cnadians are being offered ridiculously low prices for their honey, more like the price of chinese honey, yet most everybody would agree that the quality is better here. I know the brokers need to make some money at this, but as sjz points out, the prices offered on this side is below cost of production.

Jean-Marc


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## high rate of speed

That sue letter, must be a conspiracy theory. Never seen that.


----------



## babybee

Wow, that's crazy low. I think it maybe a desire for domestic honey???? I don't know.


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## jim lyon

jean-marc said:


> Babybee, how do you explain such discrepencies in the price? Cnadians are being offered ridiculously low prices for their honey, more like the price of chinese honey


My guess is you answered your own question. We may see the same down here if (or when?) Chinese import restrictions are removed. There are a few indications that some packer inventories may be running low, its that time of year.


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## irwin harlton

If what your saying is true Jim, then the quality of of Chinese resin tech honey must be as good as Canadian honey.There is a surplus in Canada and South America, do present offerings reflect this or is their predatory pricing by greedy brokers and packers, knowing that keepers sooner or later must sell, they have bills to pay
Hearing some Canadian sales going to the UK, and the buyer saying the GMO pollen is not a problem.....maybe he's invested in a resin machine


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## jean-marc

I was offered $1.40 Canadian picked up at my location about 1 week ago. Same fellow had offered me $1.10 about 3 months earlier. I turned down both offers. It wold appear that the tide has swung. According to the broker who made me these offers there is not that much Canadian honey left. I am under the impression that there is still quite a bit left but I am not buying honey so I do not really know. Another bump like the last one in the price and I would likely sell at $1.70, at least a load.

The issue with GMO pollen is that the packers have to label the honey as such. The consummers are resistant to GMO products in Europe so packers avoid North American honey. Maybe that honey is going to industrial usage and the labelling of it is not so much of a problem. I doubt very much that he would have a resin machine.

Any news as far as the Argentina crop goes? Maybe it is down again and that is what has helped turn the tide on prices. What about the rest of the southern hemisphere, Australia, New Zealand?

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

I agree with Jim as far as indications that some packer inventory is low.

Irwin, I think some packers are happy to purchase resin technology honey from China because it offers them a competitive advantage over other packers who purchase honey. The same packers know full well that the resin technology honey passes the regular tests for purity and residue analysis. It is only through sophisticated testing (I forget the name of this test) and additional costs that a packer can detect resin technology adulteration. Many packers are quite happy to turn a blind eye seeing as how the product they tested turned out to be "pure honey".

I overheard a phone conversation about a month ago from a German honey broker and an American beekeeper/queen breeder. The broker seemed a little frustrated with the chinese honey situation. He was saying that virtually all chinese honey has undergone resin technology and it is only possible to detect this through additional vigilance, testing and cost. He claimed that many American packers fail to do the additional testing in order to gain a competitive advantage. Somehow Canadian honey is supposed to match prices with this so called Chinese honey??? I don't think so.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

Is this the test you are referring to Jean-Marc

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20...the-analysis-of-honey-launched-by-Bruker.aspx


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## jean-marc

Yes Irwin, Nuclear Magnetic Reasonnance. I first read about it in your post 1109... the International Honey Market report from Ron Phipps. Sounds like it is a new test and some packers may not be aware of it, others may wish to turn a blind eye, and some may not want the extra expense especially if they are able to pass off the cheaper quality stuff as is. They stand to make reap great profits.

Jean-Marc


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## sharpdog

Are the packers buying? What have they been offering Canadians lately?


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## Ian

I heard last week a US bid of 1.2 CND


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## Fusion_power

$1.20 Canadian is about $.90 U.S. That is well under cost of production. There is plenty market manipulation going on. Locally produced honey in this area sells as fast as I can jar it up for $5.00 per pound retail.


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## babybee

Sounds like the AHPA is trying to get anti dumping duties against many other countries besides China. Canada was one of them. Is their price so low because of trans-shipping Chinese honey or just over production? This can't continue. One of my buyers told me that the fundamentals of US honey should create a whole sale price of 3 dollars plus, but with all the ultra cheap foriengn honey flooding in how can we blame the honey buyers for grabbing it up. And then not buying ours.


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## Oldmurray

Please guys beekeepers on this side of the border cannot survive on 1.20/lb honey. It is trans shipped honey, money hungry brokers and willing packers who are creating this problem. There are a lot of beekeepers who still have last years crop. Our production has not increased dramatically but China's has.


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## jean-marc

Babybee: "Not buying our" So whatever happened to 15 loads at $2.00/lb?
Well well well, Marthat, look at what the cat dragged in. Welcome OldMurray.
Lots of guys aren sitting on last year's honey. I am one of them. I have about half of last year's honey still. It trickles out of here at a reasonnable price. Nobody can afford to sell honey at $1.20/lb. The only reason it might sell at that price is because they need the cash. Unless things turn around dramatically that beekeeper might not be around to sell at that price in a year. So no, the honey is not being dumped. Last year there was an above average crop [roduced in the Western prairies, but not enough to create "over production"
Murray pretty much hit the nail on the head. Transhipped chinese honey, greedy brokers, willing packers. I would also add that the beekeeping industry has never been able to get their act together to promote and advertise our product, in order that we get a fair price for the effort and risk involved in this venture. Pointing fingers fingers and blaming others is not really going to help us. Advertising and promoting our products will.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

If we don't stop the actions of these brokers somebody else will.


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## sharpdog

Im not sure what you mean by that Ian?


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## irwin harlton

we need more than what is currently being offered in testing of raw and processed honey.True Source RESULTS tests on a Canadian CFIA INSPECTED PRODUCER packer were not good, they said his raw product did not contain enought pollen to determine country of origin, the producer ,packer replied this is BS and I agree


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## Ian

sharpdog said:


> Im not sure what you mean by that Ian?


Trade actions


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## sharpdog

Ian said:


> If we don't stop the actions of these brokers somebody else will.


Who?


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## The Honey Householder

All this talk of low honey price has made me drop my price to $2.60 a pound in the barrel. Good thing they want local honey I guess.


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## Ian

sharpdog said:


> Who?


Let me grab my crystal ball, 
US bee federations have already held meetings about slapping trade restrictions on Canadian and Argentina honey imports. Next step government lobby, next step trade restrictions. Once terrif is applied years to get reversed. I am just a beekeeper, I don't know what the answer is, but I do know we need to protect the integrity of our market place

Brokers who trade funny honey through our ports need to be stopped


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## Fusion_power

The problem with tests is that they are easily faked. Take Chinese honey and run it through an ultra fine filter and the result is almost entirely plant sugars and water. Blend that syrup with some honey produced in Argentina and voila now you have honey that tests with Argentina's pollen signature. As previously discussed in this thread, the packers are buying on the world market under $1.00 U.S. per pound. If they blend that "honey" with some local honey that costs $2 per pound and sell it for $2.50 per pound, their average profit is 50% above the price of the honey purchased. The packer gets used to this 50% profit in a hurry. Yes, I know there are some packaging and distribution costs, but the paradigm is still true.


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## wildbranch2007

Ian said:


> US bee federations have already held meetings about slapping trade restrictions on Canadian and Argentina honey imports.


since I don't really follow what they are doing, are they trying to slap trade restrictions on Canadian honey to keep the Chinese honey out? We don't produce enough honey so I would expect that they would welcome real Canadian honey. Got any links to articles?


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## pleasantvalley

So do I renew my True Source registration or not? At this point, it seems like the trade restrictions from US packers include not picking up the phone....


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## irwin harlton

http://www.worldstopexports.com/natural-honey-exporters/ 

Odem gets her commission no matter what the price is


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## jean-marc

Yes she does. But typically the margin is based on a percentage of the value of the goods. Usually the percentage does not change so the greater the value of the goods the greater the margin or commission. As an example if the commission is 5% and the honey is $1.00/lb she would get 5 cents for every pound sold so on a 40 000 pound load that would be $2 000.00. Same honey different price say $2.00/lb she would make $4 000.00 per load. She stands to make more money as well based on higher prices.

I don't have any troubles with others making money as long as I get my fair share as well.

Jean-Marc


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## sharpdog

Just dropped off a load of honey at beemaid. Initial payment is $0.63/lbs. Shockingly low.


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## clyderoad

sharpdog said:


> Just dropped off a load of honey at beemaid. Initial payment is $0.63/lbs. Shockingly low.


not good. the reverberations of these prices will be felt by everyone who produces and sells their honey both bulk and direct to consumer
and this whole new bee equipment sector that's expanded so in the last 5-10 years.. 
Canadian or US $ ?


----------



## Brian Suchan

Explain initial payment? Is beemaid a co-op like Sue bee?


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## sharpdog

Yes, coop. Typically initial payment is roughly 1/2 the expected value of the crop. The rest is payed out in installments over the next 14 months


----------



## sharpdog

clyderoad said:


> not good. the reverberations of these prices will be felt by everyone who produces and sells their honey both bulk and direct to consumer
> and this whole new bee equipment sector that's expanded so in the last 5-10 years..
> Canadian or US $ ?


$0.63 Canadian


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## swarm_trapper

So converted to US is that .49$!$!!?


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## Ian

swarm_trapper said:


> So converted to US is that .49$!$!!?


Initial payment BeeMaid is a packing cooperative


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## jean-marc

For my American friends, even though BeeMaid is a packing Co-operative the members have never gotten the packer's cut. Typically they get more or less the "going rate" for honey. Members deliver their honey in bulk contaniers in one end , out the other comes the consummer pack but the beekeepers never get that margin that a typical packer keeps for himself. All other packers are for profit but Beemaid pays it's members more or less what other packers pay. Somehow the members never get a cut for being a packer. I don't understand why the members put up with that. Maybe one of the memebers can shed some light on this.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Ian

....

18m lbs 100% CND packed BeeMaid honey competing against Giants in the food industry who use off shore product to tighten margins..., BeeMaid quality and pure product has been a huge asset in holding retailers and holding shelf price steady. Nothing to snub your nose at Jean Marc, my returns over the years are adequate.

i don't understand how Beekeepers sell to brokers who represent their product on the shelf blended with foreign product. We work too hard to have our honey cut with crap


----------



## Cristian

Here we have prices that starts from 0,68 $ /lbs and up to 1 $ /lbs . Not counting that we have small crops ( 40-50 kg on average in good years ) and we can't keep to many hives 
( small country ) but the prices are the same ! . On the shelf we see the same prices that were two years ago ( our VAT has decreased , taxes in general ) but the bulk honey has dropped very sharp . On the shelt we have mixed honey ( not monofloral variety ) with a price that start from 2,3 $ /lbs and up to 3 $ /lbs . And this are the small prices . When we are speaking about black locust honey ...bulk price and shelf price are ridiculous different . 
The problem is with controling the source of honey and testing shelf products by authorityes . 
We are makng as country around 20000 To and importing as well from China/Argentina around 3500 To ...for what ? . The answer ? " to have the same quality for the whole year . Like our honey is not good &#55357;&#56834; . 
The solution ! Pack our self as much as we can and sell the rest to packers when the prices are higher . Different contryes , same problems ! .


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## jean-marc

Ian, I just spent a bunch of time replying to you, but somehow I got time out. This time I will be briefer.

Who cares if Beemaid sells 18 000 000 pounds? They are basically giving it away and then some. I think we can agree that $1.20/lb is below the cost of production. At $1.20/lb, there will be a whole bunch of for sale signs soon or foreclosure signs. Who wants customers that do not desire your financial well being? Take Costco for example. Somehow Beemaid feels that they have to keep this customer at all costs. Costco dictates price, Beemaid agrees. Costco tells them, we no longer wish to have Beemaid honey on our shelves, we want Kirkland Honey on our shelves (Costco Brand). So now the only thing Beemaid had, which is their name, they gave up. Costco is now in a position to turn around and find honey from anywhere else.

Prices are holding steady on the shelf so either the packer is getting some of that or the retailer is, because it is not the beekeeper. I think we can agree that everybody needs to make some money along the way from beehive to store shelf. Consummers need to have insurances that they are buying pure honey. Beekeepers need to have some incentive to produce.

Returns may have been good in the past, but they were for all beekeepers based on pretty good prices in the last 5 years. However Ian and all the Beemaid members never got a cut for also being the packer. I considered being a member but I would want a cut for being a packer. Historically that has never happened.

I think we can all agree that nobody wants their product adulterated in order that a packer can cheat us out of our money. Are you implying that foreign honey is crap? I think the Australians, Argentinian's, New Zealanders might take offence to this. The real issue and I think we can agree on this, is the so called Chinese honey, that is extracted at high moisture then stretched with other sweeteners, transhipped to avoid duties that is killing us. Some people in the industry are involved in food fraud, and we the beekeepers are paying for it.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Maybee Apiaries

I think you have it all wrong Jean Marc. 

Packers like billy bee are the ones driving prices down, when producers call and can't even get a price, but yet Chinese and Argentine honey is finding its way in the door, somethings wrong. 
BEEMAID has paid a competitive price for a number of years, and although they aren't paying out huge profits to beekeepers in the for of packing profits, there is benefits like not having to buy drums, freight allowance, being able to ship any amount l, not just full loads. Oh, and also, members are getting paid this year. For those of us without deep pockets, sitting on a crop(or two or three) isn't an option. Bees gotta eat. 
Before you start putting down the Co-op, remember that we as members get to see the books every year, and know exactly where the $$ come and go.


----------



## sharpdog

As a new beekeeper, shipping to the coop is easy, and hassle free. I have wondered for several years why the coop cant beat a "for profit" packer for price. The member drums, and partial loads are of value to me, but it seems like the bottling line and Bee Supply Store, are nothing more than job creation.


----------



## jean-marc

Maybee

I don't think I have it wrong, even broken clocks are right 2 times a day. I agree about Billy Bee ot helping the situation. China is the big culprit in my books. It has to be sanctionned by the government.We don't hear of any executions of honey transhippers orthose whorun the "honey factories"

If use your logic then by extension the Canadians in the American's beekeeper's eyes are also driving the price of honey down. Do you think of yourself that way? Probably not.

My biggest criticism of BeeMaid and I think it is a valid one is not that they do not pay "huge profits for the packing side of things", it is that they do not pay for any profits on the packing profits.

I understand that there is some value to not having to shell out cash for barrels, and the ability to ship any amont of honey, nor do you have to invest time in selling your crop. That last point in my humble opinion is the single biggest failure of our industry, myself included. Generally speaking our industry over the last 150 years has not invested enough time and money to promote our products.

Sharpdog: The simple answer to your question is, the Co-op is top heavy. 

Jean-Marc


----------



## JodieToadie

jean-marc said:


> Maybee
> 
> I don't think I have it wrong, even broken clocks are right 2 times a day. I agree about Billy Bee ot helping the situation. China is the big culprit in my books. It has to be sanctionned by the government.We don't hear of any executions of honey transhippers orthose whorun the "honey factories"
> 
> If use your logic then by extension the Canadians in the American's beekeeper's eyes are also driving the price of honey down. Do you think of yourself that way? Probably not.
> 
> My biggest criticism of BeeMaid and I think it is a valid one is not that they do not pay "huge profits for the packing side of things", it is that they do not pay for any profits on the packing profits.
> 
> I understand that there is some value to not having to shell out cash for barrels, and the ability to ship any amont of honey, nor do you have to invest time in selling your crop. That last point in my humble opinion is the single biggest failure of our industry, myself included. Generally speaking our industry over the last 150 years has not invested enough time and money to promote our products.
> 
> Sharpdog: The simple answer to your question is, the Co-op is top heavy.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Jean Marc, 
You offer up some fair criticisms of BeeMaid. I think however that it is a work in progress. I will defend the cooperative quite strongly. Other folks have offered some reasons for being members of the cooperative. Realistically Jean Marc, change comes from within. If you see problems with the cooperative, join and help make it better. You have very good business acumen and I am sure you could get elected as a board member. I see very good initiatives out of BeeMaid as well as inefficiencies that should be corrected. The bottling line is slow and in my opinion not optimized in Spruce Grove at least. There is also no cushions built in for breakdowns, so if one part of the line fails it all shuts down. I also think there is too much labor on the bottling line. 
I also feel that I have been paid a fair price for my honey and the 'pooled' marketing while not letting me catch the peaks on the market also protects me from the valleys. I think we are stronger as a cooperative. I think that this allows me to focus on production since I have to spend no time on marketing, shipping, packaging, quality control (lab). There is also the point of the underlying equity within the cooperative. The land, building and equipment as well as the brand, injection molding, and infrastructure. These are not accounted for on the balance sheet and do hold value to the members that 'could' be realized if the board of directors was so inclined. I would say that the Alberta honey Producers, and the Manitoba Honey Producers are not very good at explaining or even understanding what they really have. 
A quick scenario would be 'what if' Billy Bee made a cash offer for Bee Maid? Who would realize those gains? I would assume that it would be based on my revolving equity with the coop. So it this equity worth face value? Or more? Or less? 

My opinion based on my personal analysis is that Bee Maid is inherently misunderstood by its members and because of this it is also inherently undervalued by it's members as well as non-members. Bee Maid needs to take steps to become more transparent and perhaps realize some of it's inherent value for it's members.


----------



## Ian

Top heavy , yes, typical cooperative

Few years ago they were off their final price by .15 cents. Lots of larger producers resigned their contracts. This year there is a list of many of those producers wanting back. 

Packing 100% Canadian honey is a hard mandate to follow but a good one. My point about 18m lbs is that BeeMaid is a small player. Perhaps the most progressive direction would be to start blending, increase volumes and gain larger market share. I stand at the opinion that I'm feel returns are adequate, and the corp leads advantages to my farm production logistics.

Other than that, why are non members so vocal against the cooperative. Our influence on world pricing is negligible.


----------



## pleasantvalley

Ian said:


> Top heavy , yes, typical cooperative
> 
> Few years ago they were off their final price by .15 cents. Lots of larger producers resigned their contracts. This year there is a list of many of those producers wanting back.
> 
> Packing 100% Canadian honey is a hard mandate to follow but a good one. My point about 18m lbs is that BeeMaid is a small player. Perhaps the most progressive direction would be to start blending, increase volumes and gain larger market share. I stand at the opinion that I'm feel returns are adequate, and the corp leads advantages to my farm production logistics.
> 
> Other than that, why are non members so vocal against the cooperative. Our influence on world pricing is negligible.


15 cents or 0.15 cents? That's a difference of $80 a load vs. $8000. Hardly seems worth it in the first case. Personally, I don't see the point of burning bridges with any honey buyer as some have recently done. Either do business or not. It seems very strange to badmouth McCormick out of one corner of your mouth and beg for them to buy your honey out of the other. From their perspective, isn't it logical that they are going to buy from beekeepers with whom they have long term past contracts? Not ones who are jumping in for a year (perhaps out of desperation) and will be gone the next? It works both ways. I haven't sold to US packers before, so sure, I'm annoyed that they won't buy, but I'm not surprised. I prefer to keep my options open, so I dutifully fill a 1 load contract to Beemaid even if the price is a few cents off.


----------



## sjz

Sorry but, Beemaid only works for small producers that can't make up a full load to ship. If you are a big producer with Beemaid your throwing money away. At these prices can a Beemaid member stockpile honey and wait for better prices? I know I will only sell what I need to until price goes up. I maybe sitting on 10 or more loads by then. That alone is a no brainer. Marketing my own crop is worth just as much as trying to produce it. Also holding back 5 percent of crop for five years as a coop member alone makes it not worth it. For me that would be hundreds of thousands of dollars sitting with them, that I could use.


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## suttonbeeman

jean-marc said:


> Maybee
> 
> I don't think I have it wrong, even broken clocks are right 2 times a day. I agree about Billy Bee ot helping the situation. China is the big culprit in my books. It has to be sanctionned by the government.We don't hear of any executions of honey transhippers orthose whorun the "honey factories"
> 
> If use your logic then by extension the Canadians in the American's beekeeper's eyes are also driving the price of honey down. Do you think of yourself that way? Probably not.
> 
> My biggest criticism of BeeMaid and I think it is a valid one is not that they do not pay "huge profits for the packing side of things", it is that they do not pay for any profits on the packing profits.
> 
> I understand that there is some value to not having to shell out cash for barrels, and the ability to ship any amont of honey, nor do you have to invest time in selling your crop. That last point in my humble opinion is the single biggest failure of our industry, myself included. Generally speaking our industry over the last 150 years has not invested enough time and money to promote our products.
> 
> Sharpdog: The simple answer to your question is, the Co-op is top heavy.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Jean-Marc
Your exactly right. Same thing here with SueBee. I have many friends who are sue members but I cannot see and advantage to being a member. For one they retain a percentage of your crop for operating capitol, you are paid over a,period of time and get final payment about a year after delivery. And its about the same amount you could have gotten from Dutch Gold and oaid in 30 days(Im not sure why any of us,should not be paid on delivery...we oay for gas groceries ect when we get them). But to top it all off they import honey. Even got caught IMPORTING CHINESE HONEY. What the F? Where are the profits going from the cheap chinese honey? Where is the packet profit? A few years (2001) ago they were selling 12 oz bears for .83 to Kroger. When at the Wisconsin meeting Wally of honey acres asked me why the price if honey had dropped to below a dollar I replied sue was trying to regain their market share. Sue directors at the meeting got mad, on M9nday morning I gad calls from AFB oresident, NHB (i was at the meeting representung the NHB but removed my "nhb and abf director hat" and spoke as Rick Sutton personal opinion. Some years later at the ABF meeting in Louisville a sue directir told me my figures were correct but they did not want their members to know. BUT MY BIG QUESTION IS WHY IN THE HELL US A BEEKEEPERS COOP IMPORTING CHiNESE so called honey? Where is the packers profit going and the profit off the chinses crap? S9meobe has their head in the sand if you think beekeepers are getting the best bang for their honey


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## Ian

***** ***** *****
^
Rhymes with hitch


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## jim lyon

Lets cut to the chase. The current world market situation has nothing to do with what either Bee Maid or Sue Bee are doing now and certainly not something that happened 15 years ago. I would encourage everyone to read Norberto Garcia's excellent data rich article in the August ABJ. 
After crunching all the relevant data on world hive numbers, world consumption and world import and export figures he came to the following conclusion that most of us have suspected for some time. 

".....the current drop in honey prices cannot be attributed to a global increase in beehive numbers nor to a decrease in the demand of the product.
In contrast, the enormous and difficult-to-justify increase of honey exports from several countries in Eastern Europe and Asia, combined with the information coming from official surveys and private laboratories on the prevalence of adulteration of honey, allow one to conclude that fraud mechanisms are responsible for the injection of a very important volume of cheap 'manufactured' and diluted honeys to the market.. The use of adulteration by various means become the method by which circumvention can be disguised and market share is increased."

In short what is currently happening is a massive food fraud.


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## sjz

Maybe it's time we start taking honey off store shelves, and testing for this fraud ourselves. We may have to do this. There is no action from government. Kraft got sued 5 mil. for 5% filler in their parmesan cheese. A few lawsuits may put the brakes on this, or make these crooks think twice about what they are doing.


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## matt1954

Ok so lets say we do that. We test for fraud, then what?


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## Brian Suchan

Packers have been caught with their pants down before. All it amounts to is a slap on the hands then back to business as usual


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## sjz

Well if test comes back as 25% not honey (for example) then sue for false advertising, 5 or 10 million. Or producers as a whole sue for damages. It may only take one suit like this to stop what is going on. If it goes public it's bad for business. I don't know what beekeepers in USA are getting per lb, but in Canada it's 1.13 right now. We may have no choice but to try this. If prices stay at this too long we will all be bankrupt.


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## jean-marc

Jodie:

I do agree with you that in all likelyhood co-op members undervalue the assets that they are sitting on. 
Jim: You accurately described the current honey market situation as it stands today... a massive food fraud. It is not all that hard to understand. I am sure that as beekeepers it is relatively easy to explain what has happened in the last year to any lay person. Should it not be just as easy to explain that to a purchasing agent for any retail outlet large or small?
I think sjz may have a good going forward plan. Eveybody anties up $1.00/hive and we can hire a fancy downtown lawyer with a penchant for high quality honey, a dislike for cheaters, and a bit of a mean streak. Should not be too hard to find. In Canada alone that would be a 6-700 000 dollar budget, assuming all contributed. 
Personally I am not overly comfotable sitting back and doing nothing waiting for the market to readjust itself. Hate to see beekeepers go under because of cheaters.

Jean-Marc


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## JodieToadie

I like it. I agree. And thanks Jim for getting us back on topic. I'll ante up to litigate.


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## sharpdog

Its the type of kickstarter campaign I will get behind.


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## wildbranch2007

sharpdog said:


> Its the type of kickstarter campaign I will get behind.


If you guys come up with a lawyer and a plan, I'll kick in from NY.


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## B&E

I heard from someone that someone had tested Billy-Bee recently, and that it didn't contain fake honey. Is that true? I actually was under the impression it was the Co-op that tested that and made that report.

I certainly am not voicing support for Billy-Bee, but in Canada whom else would there be to sue? Obviously, our price is tied to what is going on with Chinese imports in the USA, as has been accurately discussed on this thread. So much of Canadian honey needs to go south as we know, and we're taking the lumps on this end as well. 

In ON for instance, even a packer who buys 100% honey as a priority has the power to offer market price, because he can simply get that honey out west. And the honey from the west is cheap because it's the American packers that have the Western beeks under a drum. This I understand.

- 2 things I don't understand:

1: why then does the Co-op drop their price paid to beeks so drastically? Because if they didn't they would have too many new members join when the global price drops? The price on the shelf has stayed the same, so you cannot use the argument that they need to compete with cheap honey...unless they were bleeding money when the price was $2.25 paid to beeks or more. So why not keep your members (owners) happy, pay a constant and good price, and lock the door to new members?

2: Why haven't we as an industry done something about marketing honey properly? Look at the Almond Growers....incredible. If the Co-op, or the industry as a whole had that kind of marketing skill or effort we could sell a clean product at a really good return and keep imports largely out. Most of us are just too tired to get something like that going I guess.


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## swarm_trapper

Here is my question, if you guys in the North country are so low on price why havn't we in the US felt that yet? Last I heard from a big honey packer they were paying 1.90-2.00$. So why are the packers not just going to Canada to get the Cheap honey what am I missing?


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## wildbranch2007

packer here was/is paying 2.20 but said the price was dropping fast.


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## sjz

I think packers in U.S. Figured out if they pay US beekeepers good price, no one will lobby the government for a change. Therefore they can turn around and buy honey from anywhere in the world for nothing. Canadians can't lobby the U.S. Gov. to give us a better price. They see our honey same as the fake Chinese. It just comes down to consumers in America, whether they like eating honey that is adulterated.


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## Fusion_power

There are three types of honey buyers, Cheap, Don't know any better, and those who want it to Taste Good. The first thing consumers want is "cheap". There are the people who have never tasted good honey and have no idea what to look for. Then there are the people who buy my honey who want it to taste good. I've spoken with people in this area and they are adamant that they do not want chinese honey because of the food safety concerns. I often mention that much of the honey on store shelves is blended using honey that one way or another traces back to China


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## JodieToadie

So murmurs that Odem is offering $1.10 up here in Canada. One rumor of $1.27 from Odem. Odem flatly denies paying $1.27. Some honey moving but not much.


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## jean-marc

I guess I won't be calling. Maybe we should do like the french, have a big demostration, congest the streets with colonies... dump our honey in the streets, perhaps the sewers. I wonder how much honey it takes to completely seal off main sewers? If we are going to die may as well go out with some flare.

What a joke "True Source Honey" turns out to be. I guess they only pledged to actively support U.S. beekeepers, their customers, the consumers. They want to combat CCD through bee reasearch but they are creating a new kind of CCD-Company Colapse Dissorder with these prices.

If this keeps up the future will be bright for the chinese. They will really have to step up production of their products, North Amreican beekeeping will disappear and demand will be higher than ever.

Jean-Marc


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## babybee

I wonder why the honey packers want to drive North American producers out of business. Protests couldn't hurt, but maybe it's time to start a real coop. Like sue was originally.


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## rainesridgefarm

what does it take to buy honey in Canada to bring to the U.S.? What price point are you looking for in Drums? Maybe we need to help our Neighbors to the north have beekeepers buy your honey and Tell the packers to go pack.


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## sharpdog

I'm guessing alot would move @ $1.05USD/Lbs


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## jean-marc

I doubt that many would sell willingly or happily at $1.05 U.S. At today's currency exchange that works out to just below $1.38 Cdn. That is below cost of production. At $1.5 U.S. different story, it would all go, at today's honey market. Of course some would hang on in hopes of better prices.

Jean-Marc


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## Maybee Apiaries

Canadian beekeepers, any thoughts on Justin Trudeau paving the way for trade relations in China? Heard on the radio today that anything labeled "product of Canada" is being scooped up at a premium price, a growing middle class in China recognizes quality, and that it doesn't come from their own country. Ironic, that Chinese "honey" is the thorn in our side here.


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## jean-marc

Canada has a great reputation in China. Our immediate future is there.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

I wish I could have your faith that China is the answer to our marketing problems, to me they have always caused more problems than what they are worth to deal with, I do however hope you are correct and their is a great future for Canada and Canadian honey there.
I'm hearing prices are coming up, a future sale, 3 months out, DELIVERY to calliforinia was at 1.40 US


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## jean-marc

Irwin:

There have been some conversations with Chinese interests and for that reason, I have optimism. Hoping that this optimism can be turned into some cold hard cash, sooner rather than later.

I keep hearing of prices of $1.75 U.S. Heard $1.85 yesterday being paid to U.S. beekeepers. Also hearing that the crop was poor this year. So only stands to reason that the price is starting to move upwards. Yet I also hear that Odem is out there trolling at $1.00-$1.10 Cdn per pound. Not so sure what they are trying to accomplish. There is absolutely no reason for good Canadian white honey to be at that price. None.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

I'm hearing $1.4 plus CND for white 
Semi loads


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## jean-marc

This is odd. The notifications say Ian has the latest post, and it supposed to be on page 62. When I try to view it I cannot get to page 62. Anybody else experiencing this?

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

Ian:

Do you know who is buying?

Still seems like a soft price. Prices are very good in New Zealand, hearing the same in Australia. I think European beekeepers are getting pretty good prices. Prices are super soft for the exporting nation beekeepers like Canada, Argentina. Brazil may be doing ok based on some organic honey possibilities. Looks like the USA has become the dumping ground for the Chines but we already knew that.

Jean-Marc


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## JRG13

jean-marc said:


> This is odd. The notifications say Ian has the latest post, and it supposed to be on page 62. When I try to view it I cannot get to page 62. Anybody else experiencing this?
> 
> Jean-Marc


I did notice that yesterday too Jean-marc.


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## Ian

jean-marc said:


> Ian:
> 
> Do you know who is buying?
> 
> Still seems like a soft price. Prices are very good in New Zealand, hearing the same in Australia. I think European beekeepers are getting pretty good prices. Prices are super soft for the exporting nation beekeepers like Canada, Argentina. Brazil may be doing ok based on some organic honey possibilities. Looks like the USA has become the dumping ground for the Chines but we already knew that.
> 
> Jean-Marc


No I don't
Just an anonymous beekeeper passing on pricing news. 2 semi loads next week. Better than the $1.05 delivery in Jan ODEM!


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## BernhardHeuvel

Ian said:


> $1.4 plus CND for white


Wow, are you serious? Is this per pound? In Germany and on the European market you get 5.9 CN$ (4 €) for white canola honey per kilogramm (2.2 pounds). This is 2.7 CA$per pound. Bulk prices that are. Up to date prices. What's wrong with your honey market?

Bulk prices for European honey August 2016
Canola honey 2.7 CA$/lbs
Sunflower honey 4 CA$/lbs
Pseudoaccacia honey 4 CA$/lbs
Dark fir honey 8 CA$/lbs

I market a good portion of the honey I produce directly to the consumer and this way you get way better prices. (8.6 - 11.4 CA$ per pound or 13-17 € per kilogramm). What are your local market prices? Wouldn't investing in a filling/bottling line and delivering supermarket chains and so on be an option? Of course you need storage facilities and stuff, but if I see those prices I wouldn't hesitate. Put a sticker on the jar: directly from the producer of good Canadian honey. 

Eyes wide open while sipping my morning coffee. Stunned me, hope we never get there here on the European market.


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## Ian

Bernhard, I knew a fellow from Germany, he worked here one summer inspecting hives on some kind of a training placement. He told me of German honey prices, at that time 4 times ours. But he said it came with a cost. Tight government restriction on treatment use and tight control on inport export. 
You'd know better than I, but that's what he said. 
He also said beekeeping in Canada looked like a dream, kinda like the "Wild West" in his mind. Not sure what he meant but I think he meant our industry looked lucrative. But reward tails risk...


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## johno

Ian, I think beekeepers in Canada do not make a big voting block so your politicians are taking care of your packers. I guess that is much the same in the USA.
Johno


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## m_pchelari

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Wow, are you serious? Is this per pound? In Germany and on the European market you get 5.9 CN$ (4 €) for white canola honey per kilogramm (2.2 pounds). This is 2.7 CA$per pound. Bulk prices that are. Up to date prices. What's wrong with your honey market?
> 
> Bulk prices for European honey August 2016
> Canola honey 2.7 CA$/lbs
> Sunflower honey 4 CA$/lbs
> Pseudoaccacia honey 4 CA$/lbs
> Dark fir honey 8 CA$/lbs
> 
> I market a good portion of the honey I produce directly to the consumer and this way you get way better prices. (8.6 - 11.4 CA$ per pound or 13-17 € per kilogramm). What are your local market prices? Wouldn't investing in a filling/bottling line and delivering supermarket chains and so on be an option? Of course you need storage facilities and stuff, but if I see those prices I wouldn't hesitate. Put a sticker on the jar: directly from the producer of good Canadian honey.
> 
> Eyes wide open while sipping my morning coffee. Stunned me, hope we never get there here on the European market.


Hi Bernhard,
The wholesale prices for bulgarian beekeepers are 2 € per kilogram, export for Germany, Italy, Poland. That is for sunflower, coriander.
One interesting analysis for International honey market.


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## Ian

Got word from aBeekeeper shipping 2 loads south at $1.36


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## jean-marc

$1.4/pound. He was serious. Apparently this is a good price. Odem and others (expletive... of your choice) are offering $1.05. Cdn, delivery in January. What a joke. Nobody can survive on this. Maybe if you did not pay your workers and maybe if you could steal the syrup and forget to pay your queens, you might be able to pay the rest of the bills.

What is wrong with our market? Well, we have been saying it for sometime, China dumps their adulterated product into the states via other countries. Big on the list last year was Ukraine... maybe 50 000 000 pounds. Lots going through Argentina, Vietnam, you name it, everybody all of a sudden is producing honey to export. There are packers who are quite happy to take the money that should belong to beekeepers and stick vit in their pockets. They don't ask too many questions, as long as the price is good. Somehow they expect us to match that price. Everybody losses including the consummers, producers. 

For sure these prices are unsustainable. For sure it will create bad blood between producers and packers. The only reason anybody is selling honey at these cut throat prices is because they have some bills that need to be paid... syrup... workers... varroa medication, fumigillin... return flights for said workers, psychologist or JD (depending on your personnality)on account of the stress that these low prices are creating.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

Ya it's hard at that, then put a below average crop against that also


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## sharpdog

The other reason people will sell below production cost, is to stay in buiness, or out of fear. When prices are rising, people feel they will never fall. When prices are falling, they fear they will never go up again.

Heard today Odem has offered $1.20 CAD for a 6 load lot, but only willing to pay $1.15 for a single load. What does that tell ya?


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## Maybee Apiaries

So, back to BEEMAID and the two co-operative members. In my opinion, they are playing by the rules, trying to provide a good product to consumers, and a good price to producers. Yet they(we), are at the mercy of what all the other packers are offering.
In my opinion, it's time for BEEMAID to make a big move, borrow money, rent warehouse space and start buying underpriced Canadian honey. Time to become more of a broker and less of a packer. Buy low sell high.


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## Ian

They are at the mercy of the other packers because they all compete for the same shelf space. 
If you had $10m , would you buy honey and speculate on it?


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## jean-marc

$1.15 or $1.20/ Hmmm, is that a trick question? One is a very poor price, kinda slap in the face given current cost of production. The other is the same plus a nickel. On a positive note, that is 15 cents higher than what Ian was saying they were offering just a few days ago. Prices are going up... wooohooo.

As far as the Coop becoming a broker... not possible. They suffer from chronic insecurity. They always seem to be the first to drop prices in the mad rush to give away their member's efforts. In order for them to do this, it would require a 180 degree turnaround in their mindset. They have never exhibited that kind of moxie. It would be nice to see, as would $3.00/lb honey, but it ain't gonna happen tomorrow.

I don't think it would take too much to see prices rise. Apparently a short crop in the USA. Canada will be average to slightly below average, but overall crop could be slightly up from our 5 year average , based on higher colony numbers. I think the nation is 90 000 000 pounds of production average. So if the co-op were to acquire 20% of it quickly, prices would likely start rising. All it takes is 25-30 000 000 budget. That is deeper than my pockets. Not sure that I would have the nerves if I had the budget. I think I would. I don't see prices going lower.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc


----------



## sharpdog

Im hearing the offers still stand here in canada @$1.20 CAD. Dont know if anyone is selling. At least the price seems to have stabilized. Anyone else hear anything on prices?


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## Maybee Apiaries

sharpdog said:


> Im hearing the offers still stand here in canada @$1.20 CAD. Dont know if anyone is selling. At least the price seems to have stabilized. Anyone else hear anything on prices?


Alberta Beekeepers and Alberta Honey Producers AGM both take place next week. Might have a better idea on predicted prices after that (or not)


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## jean-marc

Well I predict it will go up. Just hang on boys, as long as you can. There is not a lot of honey that was produced in the mid west this year. There might be some carry over from 2014 and 2015 but I think there is not too much of that around. Eventually the packers will need some good quality white honey. Some of them have figured that out and that is perhaps why Ian mentioned $1.40 canadian. Basically though that is $1.05 or so U.S. Nothing to write home about. 

Jean-Marc


----------



## Mahmoud

by Misa Han
Capilano, part-owned by media mogul Kerry Stokes, has applied for a gag order to stop a beekeeper from publishing social media posts accusing the listed honey company of selling toxic, imported honey that contains Chinese and Argentine ingredients.
Victoria-based beekeeper Simon Mulvany runs a consumer activist website and social media accounts known as "Save the Bees Australia", where he has made allegations that Capilano is dumping poisonous honey in order to make money.
According to court documents, Capilano and its chief executive Ben McKee have applied for a court order to stop Mr Mulvany from making the allegations, and are suing him for damages and costs. Mr Mulvany has agreed to pull down about 25 social media posts until the Supreme Court of NSW makes a decision.
Mr Mulvany said he ran the campaign because he wanted Capilano consumers to be aware of what they were buying.
"Most disturbingly, Capilano is exporting Capilano honey that's been adulterated and mixed with Chinese honey and selling it back to the Chinese. Australia's reputation has really been affected," Mr Mulvany told The Australian Financial Review.


----------



## babybee

Selling it back to the Chinese!! That doesn't disturb me at all!!!


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## JRG13

I think it's interesting China wants real honey now, after they've flooded the market and depressed prices with questionable product.... or perhaps that was the plan all along....


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## ladaok

Mahmoud said:


> by Misa Han
> Capilano, part-owned by media mogul Kerry Stokes, has applied for a gag order to stop a beekeeper from publishing social media posts accusing the listed honey company of selling toxic, imported honey that contains Chinese and Argentine ingredients.
> Victoria-based beekeeper Simon Mulvany runs a consumer activist website and social media accounts known as "Save the Bees Australia", where he has made allegations that Capilano is dumping poisonous honey in order to make money.
> According to court documents, Capilano and its chief executive Ben McKee have applied for a court order to stop Mr Mulvany from making the allegations, and are suing him for damages and costs. Mr Mulvany has agreed to pull down about 25 social media posts until the Supreme Court of NSW makes a decision.
> Mr Mulvany said he ran the campaign because he wanted Capilano consumers to be aware of what they were buying.
> "Most disturbingly, Capilano is exporting Capilano honey that's been adulterated and mixed with Chinese honey and selling it back to the Chinese. Australia's reputation has really been affected," Mr Mulvany told The Australian Financial Review.



find this hard to believe, Australia as with us kiwis, have a very strict policy of absolutely NO honey imports. 

there is the possibility that these people are importing some form of a concoction ( sweetener or such like ) to adulterate genuine Aussie honey 

last season, bush blend, multi flora, clover, all around NZ $ 10.50 > 13.00 / kilo ... kanuka $ 15.00 +/- manuka $ 19.00 > 40.00 +


----------



## Mahmoud

To supplement consumer demand during periods of low supply of Australian Honey, other brands, may contain imported honey from accredited suppliers that have been through Australia’s rigorous testing standards. This presents a value-driven alternative offering greater choice to consumers.


That's from there website


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Here is the relevant Calilano.com.au page that contains the exact language that _Mahmoud_ cited in the post above:

http://capilano.com.au/au/faq/11/do-you-import-honey

It seems pretty clear that Australian law _does_ allow honey imports.


----------



## irwin harlton

Natural Honey Exports by Country
December 15, 2016 by Daniel Workman

Natural Honey Exports by Country

Honey bee at work
Natural honey exports by country during 2015 totaled US$2.3 billion up by an average 38.3% for all natural honey shippers over the five-year period starting in 2011 when natural honey shipments were valued at $1.7 billion. The value of global natural honey exports fell by -0.6% from 2014 to 2015.

Among continents, European countries accounted for the highest dollar value worth of natural honey exports during 2015 with shipments amounting to $826.4 million or 35.2% of international honey sales. This percentage compares with 28.7% from Asian exporters, 15.6% from Latin American and Caribbean suppliers, and 9.9% from each of Oceania (mostly Australia followed by New Zealand) and North America. African sources furnished just 0.4% of natural honey exports.

The 4-digit Harmonized Tariff System code prefix for natural honey is 0409.


The following countries posted the highest positive net exports for natural honey during 2015. Investopedia defines net exports as the value of a country’s total exports minus the value of its total imports. Thus, the statistics below present the surplus between the value of each country’s natural honey exports and its import purchases for that same commodity.

China: US$213.9 million (net export surplus up 13.5% since 2011)
New Zealand: $198.5 million (up 130.5%)
Argentina: $163.4 million (down -26.8%)
Mexico: $156 million (up 72.7%)
India: $119.9 million (up 60.7%)
Vietnam: $109.4 million (up 64%)
Ukraine: $95.5 million (up 243.6%)
Brazil: $81.7 million (up 15.3%)
Hungary: $75.2 million (up 25.9%)
Uruguay: $45.5 million (up 4.8%)
Romania: $39.9 million (up 5.8%)
Chile: $39.3 million (up 40.7%)
Bulgaria: $34.7 million (up 34.6%)
Spain: $28.8 million (down -19.3%)
Turkey: $25.1 million (up 381.4%)

China has the highest surplus in the international trade of natural honey. In turn, this positive cashflow confirms China’s strong competitive advantage for this specific product category.




The following countries posted the highest negative net exports for natural honey during 2014. Investopedia defines net exports as the value of a country’s total exports minus the value of its total imports. Thus, the statistics below present the deficit between the value of each country’s natural honey import purchases and its exports for that same commodity.

United States: -US$581.6 billion (net export deficit up 53.1% since 2011)
Germany: -$177.9 million (up 13.1%)
Japan: -$117.2 million (up 0.1%)
United Kingdom: -$110.4 million (down -8.5%)
France: -$95.1 million (up 15.3%)
Italy: -$40.7 million (up 60.8%)
Hong Kong: -$39.3 million (up 134.1%)
Netherlands: -$35.3 million (up 1.7%)
Saudi Arabia: -$32.7 million (up 36.2%)
Switzerland: -$32.1 million (up 1.5%)
Australia: -$21.1 million (down -389.3%)
United Arab Emirates: -$19.4 million (up 14.5%)
Singapore: -$18 million (up 65.7%)
Sweden: -$16.9 million (down -14.1%)
Poland: -$16.2 million (down -29%)

United States has the highest deficit in the international trade of natural honey. In turn, this negative cashflow confirms America’s strong competitive disadvantage for this specific product category but also signals opportunities for natural honey-supplying countries that help satisfy the powerful demand from American consumers.


Natural Honey Exports by Country
December 15, 2016 by Daniel Workman

Natural Honey Exports by Country

Honey bee at work
Natural honey exports by country during 2015 totaled US$2.3 billion up by an average 38.3% for all natural honey shippers over the five-year period starting in 2011 when natural honey shipments were valued at $1.7 billion. The value of global natural honey exports fell by -0.6% from 2014 to 2015.

Among continents, European countries accounted for the highest dollar value worth of natural honey exports during 2015 with shipments amounting to $826.4 million or 35.2% of international honey sales. This percentage compares with 28.7% from Asian exporters, 15.6% from Latin American and Caribbean suppliers, and 9.9% from each of Oceania (mostly Australia followed by New Zealand) and North America. African sources furnished just 0.4% of natural honey exports.

The 4-digit Harmonized Tariff System code prefix for natural honey is 0409.

Natural Honey Exports by Country

Natural Honey Exporting Companies

According to global trading platform Alibaba, the following companies are also examples of natural honey-trading companies located in the country shown within parentheses:

Capilano Honey Ltd (Australia)
Caprilush International (Mexico)
Duc Cuong Phat Company Limited (Vietnam)
Dutch Golld Honey (United States)
Groeb Farms, Inc (United States)
Navrang SL (Spain)
Nuxten Health Ltd (New Zealand)
Rowse Honey Ltd (United Kingdom)
Zanchetta Alimentos LTDA (Brazil)
Zhejiang Jiangshan Bee Enterprise Co, Ltd (China)

In addition, here are 5 other multinational honey suppliers based on searches from global trade intelligence firm Zepol.

Bee Honey (Vietnam)
Compania Inversora Platens (Argentina)
Honeyma (Argentina)
Miel Mex (Mexico)
Mieles Del Mayab (Mexico)


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## jean-marc

JRG13 said:


> I think it's interesting China wants real honey now, after they've flooded the market and depressed prices with questionable product.... or perhaps that was the plan all along....


That is my thinking as well.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

It'll be the consumers of China buying our good honey. It's the brokers who are turning out the syrup.


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## Fusion_power

Another case of not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing.... except that the Chinese consumers obviously know that domestic honey is suspect.


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## BernhardHeuvel

There was a lenghty article, spanning over 9 pages in the latest professional beekeeping journal "Imkerei Technik Magazin" about the World honey market and prices. If I find the time I will post a summary. 

One thing they found: The far Eastern part of the World increased honey exports by 196 % within 2007-2014. Hive counts only increased by 13 %. 

Country 2007 > 2014
China 64,354 tons > 144,756 tons (9 million bee hives producing about 450,000 tons of honey each year)
India 4,784 tons > 40,829 tons
Vietnam 12,976 tons > 39,696 tons
Ukraine 3,516 tons > 35,003 tons
Thailand 3,869 tons > 19,631 tons
Turkey 398 tons > 7,192 tons
Taiwan 1,004 tons > 5,086 tons

Chinese consumers are reported to use a lot of honey and they seem to know a lot about it. There is a huge consumption of honey in China. The gap between (total consumption + exports) and (production + imports) seems to be filled with syrup. According to Phipps, American Bee Journal April 2016, p. 391-395


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## jim lyon

BernhardHeuvel said:


> There is a huge consumption of honey in China. The gap between (total consumption + exports) and (production + imports) seems to be filled with syrup. According to Phipps, American Bee Journal April 2016, p. 391-395


Of this there can be little doubt. Honey has become one of the most counterfeited foods in the world. It makes it difficult not just for producers who are trying to market pure honey but also for packers of integrity who are forced to compete against all types of honey of unknown origin.


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## Eduardo Gomes

>> According to Phipps, American Bee Journal April 2016, p. 391-395

Between 2007 and 2014 there was a huge increase in total global honey exports (61%), with no corresponding increase in the number of hives worldwide (8%).

In the most advanced and professional beekeeping operations in the world, such as in North America and Argentina, productivity per hive decreased substantially. In these areas of the world where averages of 55 kg / hive were typical, currently produce 22-32 kg / hive, and in adverse climatic conditions this average low still more.

http://www.ahpanet.com/page/IntlHoneyMarket

Some countries increases their production in an (in)explicable way.:scratch:


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## irwin harlton

No doubt fast rising prices of the past few years have led Asia to bigger exports, I wonder if Communist China bureaucrats have underestimated their own demand, usage for honey in their market


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## sweetas

The chinese do not trust their own honey, hence a huge demand from places like Western Australia. In Bejing they have a ultra modern honey testing facility. It put the facilities in Australia to shame.


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## dgl1948

We had a booth at Agrabition this year. During the week we were approached by two Chineese importers looking to buy Canadian honey. They want to purchase bottled honey, not bulk and want to buy by the container load. Communication with them was very difficult as their english was very limited but the door has been opened.


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## Ian

What was their offer by the container load?


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## Bear Fence Builder

sqkcrk said:


> The Imperial Gallon = 4.546L. The US Gallon = 3.79L. And the little used US Dry Gallon = 4.40L. So, BFB, not only are there two different sizes of gallons, there are three. Many of the folks on this Thread are Canadian. They use The Imperial Gallon.


Never saw the response till now: you're right in a manner of speaking with that comment. I was referring to the volume of a gallon. You would be surprised at how many people can't related that a gallon of water is equal to a gallon of anything else in volume (given that both are speaking the same system) The other characteristics change. As the previous poster clarified he was speaking of an imperial gallon, which led to the confusion. Similarly that's why it is annotated with "imperial" or "dry" to differentiate between the systems being used. A gallon is a gallon a pound is a pound ect ect. 

As Mr. Lyon pointed out commercial sales are driven by weight and moisture content. And color grade as well. A prime example of why honey is sold on a large scale that way. A gallon from producer A may be 15% moisture level while a gallon from producer B may be 18% ect ect...both gallons are the same volumetrically. 55 units of A or B will fill a 55 gallon container but are different in physical properties.


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## dgl1948

Still in talks with them. The container size would take about 35 barrels of honey that would have to be bottled. Language is a real problem when dealing with them.


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## jean-marc

Yup and so is getting money in your pocket. They usually want an absurd amount that you cannot hope to fulfill. They also have a tendancy to not purchase a single pallet. Lots of nibbles very hard to reel them in. They are out there though. Smile lots and nod, you'll be fine.

Jean-Marc


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## John Smith

The Chinese in one of any big cities, yes in the USA and here in Australia too, are a magnificent market, and they mostly speak reasonable English.

Matching the market to your capacity makes it all so easy. 

The masses will most probably have to be content with glucose. I know they are all talking honey, but there simply wont be enough to go around, and mostly they will not go looking for it either. 

So I don't worry about the masses. I cannot supply but a very small percentage of them and I focus on my customers and let the rest do what they do best.

My definition of bulk honey is wholesale, farm gate style prices for a 15kg plastic bottle. I stack the drums in the shed for later!


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## max2

John Smith - 2016 took me to Singapore by invitation by a family which owns a number of supermarkets and Restaurants there and then on to China where they own a large farm and resort....
They would have purchased all of my few tons of Raw Honey.
Alas - all good quality honey can be sold here in Australia.
Question - why would a modest producer bother going off-shore?


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## jean-marc

A modest producer would not need togo offshore, It is reasonnably easy to sell a modest amount of honey at a reasonnable profit. It is much harder today to sell truck load amounts at a reasonnable and or profitable price in Canada today.

Unless the offshore guy was willing to pay 1.5 times what you currently are receiving, the extra paper work and possibly infrastructure costs would not make it worth it. As a modest producer you would have all your eggs in one basket. Any goes wrong with that relationship you are would be back to having to rebuild your local market.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

Interesting that more than a few large packers have been in the Chinese market for well over half a decade, sales remain small with modest growth, if any growth at all.Only so many rich Chinese can afford the luxury of pure honey...The buyers who have escaped the wrath of communism and those still under it are shrewd,savoy and out to get you.Communism when based on a capitalistic system works well for crooks, as witnessed by the flood of so called Chinese honey flooding the world market.Chinese buyers were looking for deals 45 years ago on packed honey , offers were made but nothing happened.There is a import tax , I believe 14%. on honey entering China.


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## Oldtimer

Donald has been talking about slapping a 42% tarriff on all imports to the US from China, so if he follows through that would certainly assist US beekeepers in getting a better price domestically.


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## clyderoad

OT>> you mean to say The Donald, don't you?


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## Oldtimer

Oh yes, The Donald LOL

The other part of that trick will be having some means in place to discover where honey supposedly from other countries, origionally came from.


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## wildbranch2007

Oldtimer said:


> Donald has been talking about slapping a 42% tarriff on all imports to the US from China, so if he follows through that would certainly assist US beekeepers in getting a better price domestically.


I'm not familiar with the current tariff they put on chinese honey, but I'm pretty sure a 42% would actually lower the tariff, and the big beeks would then not get that large check they get from the Byrd(?) penalty on chinese honey. those darn unintended consequences:lookout:

http://www.ahpanet.com/page/ByrdAmendment



> The government just announced that, as of April 30, 2016, it had collected $4.36 million in AD and CVD duties on honey imports from Argentina and China, and that it intends to distribute this amount to eligible domestic honey producers later in 2016.


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## Ian

There is an offer of $1.25/lbs April delivery from ODEM


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## Ian

Load moved $1.38 in pocket


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## BadBeeKeeper

irwin harlton said:


> ...witnessed by the flood of so called Chinese honey flooding the world market.Chinese buyers were looking for deals 45 years ago on packed honey , offers were made but nothing happened.There is a import tax , I believe 14%. on honey entering China.


I just finished reading an article about the necessity of hand-pollination by farmers in China, because there are so few bees.

So, there seems to me to be some disparity here. If there are few bees in China, then how can they flood the global market with honey?

Maybe the hand-pollination story applied only to one region and the writer failed to make that clear (or didn't know)?


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## Bran

Ian said:


> Load moved $1.38 in pocket


 seems like a big jump in price, who's buying at that?


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## Oldtimer

BadBeeKeeper said:


> If there are few bees in China, then how can they flood the global market with honey?


Not all of China is a toxic wasteland. Beekeeping is a huge cottage industry in China, the overall effect is a lot of honey is produced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyPvH6e3eVo


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## zhiv9

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Maybe the hand-pollination story applied only to one region and the writer failed to make that clear (or didn't know)?


This article described hand-pollination pretty well - http://wblomst.com/writing/pollination.html. It's an economic one and doesn't have as much to do with a shortage of bees as has been indicated.


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## Ian

Bran said:


> seems like a big jump in price, who's buying at that?


Loads going south


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## clyderoad

Ian said:


> Load moved $1.38 in pocket


Although I wish it were higher, I'm glad you got this price instead of the prices being discussed a few months ago.
Glad too the phones are being answered now.


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## Ian

clyderoad said:


> Although I wish it were higher, I'm glad you got this price instead of the prices being discussed a few months ago.
> Glad too the phones are being answered now.


I'm just passing the word on
Not my honey 
My old crop honey payment was $1.87 said and done


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## JodieToadie

Ian said:


> I'm just passing the word on
> Not my honey
> My old crop honey payment was $1.87 said and done


Ian, just curious what your thoughts were on the payment difference between AHP and MHP. AHP only got $1.78 and not a question was asked nor explanation given at the AGM.


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## jean-marc

Ah? Mhp? Alberta honey producers? Manitoba honey producers

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

JodieToadie said:


> Ian, just curious what your thoughts were on the payment difference between AHP and MHP. AHP only got $1.78 and not a question was asked nor explanation given at the AGM.


Yes it's in the year end book. Variability is common as both cooperatives manage specific conditions. I will not comment though,


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## suttonbeeman

BadBeeKeeper said:


> I just finished reading an article about the necessity of hand-pollination by farmers in China, because there are so few bees.
> 
> So, there seems to me to be some disparity here. If there are few bees in China, then how can they flood the global market with honey?
> 
> Maybe the hand-pollination story applied only to one region and the writer failed to make that clear (or didn't know)?


Very easy. You take inverted rice syrup send it to third world country and put a little of their honey in it then sell as "honey".


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## BadBeeKeeper

Oldtimer said:


> Not all of China is a toxic wasteland. Beekeeping is a huge cottage industry in China, the overall effect is a lot of honey is produced.


Thanks, the article I read made it sound like bees were scarce all over...which I thought was a little difficult to believe, given the sheer size of the country.


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## jean-marc

Was offered $1.40/lb today, Canadian. I passed. Had they offered $1.60 it would have gone. My crystal ball says $1.60 come May, but that remains to be seen.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

US or CND buyer?


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## jean-marc

Canadian broker going to Barkman's... Beemaid is looking for honey for them and so is this other broker. Poor Argentine crop so packers need honey. I don't think they are desperate but trying to keep some stock ahead... bridging a gap, until Argentina gets a little hungry and sells honey or until honey starts coming in from 2017 or wherever else they may get their honey from. I just keep reading and seeing production is going down per hive and demand is increasing. It should be a way better price if the phoney honey was out of the marketplace.

Jean-Marc


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## The Honey Householder

You would do better then $1.60 without a broker. 
If you know a packer wants it. Make the call yourself and keep the $.25 a lb for yourself. Thats only $10,500 more per load.


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## jean-marc

Apparently Odem was offering $1.50/lb Canadian today. Just got off the phone with a buddy. Looks like something is up. Likely Argentina is not selling what little honey they did get, probably holding off for better prices. There is cause for cautious optimism... woohoo.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

What, has that circumvented Chinese garbage disappeared?
ODEM loves hedging the market vs Chinese


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## jim lyon

I've had some buyer interest here in recent weeks though domestic offerings remain in the $1.70 range.


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## Ian

Wonder if CETA (Europe/Canada free trade) has something to do with higher Canadian honey prices ,?
I hear rumblings the GMO restrictions are softening


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## jean-marc

I am hearing the same thing with Europe. It's about time. Strange that they worried about gmo's but a lot of Chinese honey still went there. 

Jean-Marc


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## John Smith

It is the honey buyers at the wholesale level who were worried, or at least pretending to be. The general public cannot effectively be generalised. I have been asked only once in seven years of working farmer's markets if my bees were near GMO crops. The public is mostly made of individuals, not countries, and they all have different demands to meet. They love white honey and dark honey, strong honey and tasteless honey, they all love REAL honey. The price of bulk honey may never reflect what the consuming public really think about the value of honey. With the exception of Mr. Ron Phipps, mostly I ignore what the big honey buyers tell me.


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## jean-marc

Looks like honey has crept back up to $1.60 cdn, FOB, 30 day payment from pick-up. I have heard of forward contracts at $1.55-$1.65. That is not so attractive at this point. Looks like that short Argentine crop is helping out a lot. Seems they are always short. Europe is apparently needing that honey as consummers are demanding true honey, so all store shelf honey has to undergo NMR testing.

Looks like there is a slight cause for optimism at this pont. Somehow we are still about 30% below American prices based on currency alone. I don't get that. This difference never existed before, well it did but only around 10 cents a pound, not the current 50-60 cents. Those last dimes per pound make beekeeping worthwhile. Fun vs a curse. Profitable vs bankruptcy etc...

Hang in there fellows, gals too.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

Seems like Canadian producers were being punished for producing a quality white honey in a large volume, crop was looked upon as a surplus in a world overflowing with honey .Hoping China continues to lose world market share of its transshipped product


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## jean-marc

Apparently the honey market is coming back. I heard some Argentina honey $1.58/lb U.S. FOB Argentina. This is for ELA honey. Also hearing that brokers are forward contracting Canadian honey at $1.85. It is likely that come fall Canadian honey will be back to perhaps $2.25 (canadian funds) There is cause for cautious optimism. Now if we could only get some sunshine around here we could have some bees.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian

Ya it's moving up
I've heard ODEM offering $1.65 fall delivery


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## jean-marc

I heard that too Ian, but that was a good month ago. Since then I have heard $1.85.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

hearing that honey presently being purchased is going into storage in Eastern US in anticipation of higher prices, funny , nobody admitting to a shortage of REAL white honey, but the when you see the colour on the shelf its a long ways from white


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## Ian

Jean-Marc, that was a quote to a neighbour last week, but I like your quote better 
Yes I can confirm that too Irwin. Chicago has wear houses full of white honey. 
It's like banking gold lol
1.25 few months ago equils a 25% increase today


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## JRG13

irwin harlton said:


> hearing that honey presently being purchased is going into storage in Eastern US in anticipation of higher prices, funny , nobody admitting to a shortage of REAL white honey, but the when you see the colour on the shelf its a long ways from white


Well, they gotta dilute the darker stuff with something!


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## Queen excluder

I just saw this news. I am not sure if this will affect the price much or not. 
It is a stepmom the right direction though. 

Here is a link. 
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/business/billy-bee-doyon-honey-1.4085095


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## The Honey Householder

Just had a packer quote me $1.85 for WHT. They was saying the price for imported honey was going up, and was saying the honey is just not out there. I told them it was out there if they want to pay for it. Still holding half 2016 crop. Looking for $2 a lb price.


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## irwin harlton

I was in awe and shock when Barkman came out with his 1.05 offer for "foreign" Canadian honey.Apparently by TODAYS RISING PRICES , he has misread, misled the market, nice guy who maybe cashed in on some cheap stuff, no doubt he will be more cautious in his market price offerings. This is maybe not typical large US packer , but they all like super cheap honey and this is what they got.Same old story cheaper honey allows a packer to undercut the competition and gain new markets, so how much did you gain Mr Barkman?


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## irwin harlton

One of the most terrible beliefs is that the market for honey depends on the collector who has treated you well, and in many cases; wrong.

That business relationship between you and the collector, depends entirely on your level of ignorance or knowledge, and the level of manipulation or good business practices of the buyer but; Has nothing to do with the international honey market. The international market for honey suffers ups and downs not by whims, but by the market laws that govern international markets. One of these laws - and I believe the most important one - is the law of supply and demand;

from http://biblioteca.ugan.mx/reporte-del-mercado-internaciona…/


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## The Honey Householder

Sold a load of WHT for $2.50 to small packer last week. Honey is in short supply right now. Hopeing price hold for new crop.


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## babybee

May we ask which packer?


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## mark g

I heard from a friend of mine that things are going bad in the Dakotas. $2.20+ honey by fall. Anyone have any additional insight?


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## Fusion_power

There is a good crop of honey here in the southeast. That may or may not be important given that most honey in the U.S. is produced in northern tier states.


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## jim lyon

Fusion_power said:


> There is a good crop of honey here in the southeast. That may or may not be important given that most honey in the U.S. is produced in northern tier states.


I wouldn't expect a big crop in the Dakotas certainly the early part of the summer has been poor over much of the area.


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## mark g

Ok, sounds like half of what I hear is true. Do you see that big of a jump in price this year?


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## The Honey Householder

Talked to Barkman two month back and they said they can buy all the honey that they need for $1.70 why would they pay any more then they have to. Sorry not giving my honey away at that price.:no:

I talk to a guy that got $2.75 for all his orange crop, which was up from last year pricing.:thumbsup: He said crop was Good to better then Avg. Price might be on it's way up or they couldn't find orange to import for cheaper.

To early to now what our crop is going to bring this year for us. Hope to get started extracting next week.


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## SimeonR

Any news on honey prices?


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## jim lyon

$2.00+ and climbing for white.


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## jean-marc

And yet in Canada we are being offred $1.50/cdn, a little bit better than half the price of merian producers. Bestto hold on to the crop as lng as possible.

Jean-Marc


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## B&E

I've been able to confirm a couple loads of white at $1.85. But those Buyers were specifically looking for ontario Honey. Not much out there right now of that.


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## Back in the saddle

With the season drawing to a close, I am interested in any current information on bulk honey prices. My plans going forward most likely put me in the position of buying so I'd like to get a finger on the pulse of the market.


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## B&E

I assume you are referring to ON prices. It's gone crazy. No honey out there. Selling a few fulls loads at $2.25 CDN for ON white. Specialty (buckwheat or blueberry) is $3.00 now.

If you need some, you best look now. There won't be ON around in the spring. Mind you, if you just need CDN honey there is lots out west.


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## Back in the saddle

It would appear that crops were locally variable in Ontario. my own crop was very reasonable, coming in around 75 lb/colony average. I'd rather have Ontario honey but since margins are what make profits, I'll buy out west if that's where the best price is at. There's no margin at $2.25. My Grandad used to say, "It's better to do nothing than to work for nothing because then at least you don't eat so much.


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## gww

Back in the..........
I just stole what your grandpa use to say.
Cheers
gww


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## B&E

Back in the saddle said:


> . I'd rather have Ontario honey but since margins are what make profits, I'll buy out west .


Unless of course you Market Ontario honey, then you don't really have a choice. That's why the price is high for Ontario honey because many people are marketing their honey as local.


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## jean-marc

Once the honey crosses the imaginary line does it not become Ontatio honey seeing as how it is honey in Ontario?

Jean-Marc


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## Back in the saddle

There are legitimate distinctions and that can be resolved quite easily. I intend to market my personal production under a "select" label. If Ontario honey is gold plated, I'll buy JM's honey.


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## B&E

Ya, because JM is famous for cheap products.


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## jean-marc

Brian and others, personally I like to see beekeepers with a few dollars in their jeans. That philosophy starts at home.

I am sure I will be able to iron something out with BITS. Maybe I can even get paid in Bit coins. 

Jean-Marc


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## B&E

#pocketchange


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## Back in the saddle

I was reading today that bitcoin had passed $5000.00 It wouldn't take that many of them to buy a load.


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## Back in the saddle

1 Bitcoin equals
6990.69 Canadian Dollar, I stand corrected, more like 7K each.


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## jean-marc

Seems like nobody is selling any honey anymore and this posting is slow. Anyways I was offered $1.53/lb Cdn for pickup in the first quarter, 30 day payment after pickup. Actually the last part I am assuming, we did not get that far. I said pass. The American dollar gained a bit of strenght that day so I the broker was able to throw in the extra 3 cents. I just checked and for those inquiring minds that works out to a whopping $1.19 U.S./lb. Not really sure how people are supposed to survive on that. I suppose if you get a 200 pound crop it might work assuming bees survive winter. I don't think it works out for the 150 pounds/hive guys... at least not in the long run based on today's expenses.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

Seems like nobody is selling any honey anymore and this posting is slow. Anyways I was offered $1.53/lb Cdn for pickup in the first quarter, 30 day payment after pickup. Actually the last part I am assuming, we did not get that far. I said pass. The American dollar gained a bit of strenght that day so I the broker was able to throw in the extra 3 cents. I just checked and for those inquiring minds that works out to a whopping $1.19 U.S./lb. Not really sure how people are supposed to survive on that. I suppose if you get a 200 pound crop it might work assuming bees survive winter. I don't think it works out for the 150 pounds/hive guys... at least not in the long run based on today's expenses.

Jean-Marc


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## Eduardo Gomes

jean-marc said:


> Seems like nobody is selling any honey anymore and this posting is slow.


Hi Jean-Marc
Although it is on another continent and perhaps not very relevant for you I sold about 7 tons at an average price of 3.80 € / kg.


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## The Honey Householder

I had a small packer tell me a month ago that they can buy all the Canada honey they need and want for $1.20 a lb. And why would they pay the $2.12 for US honey. This year's crop was down 32% from last years.


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## Oldtimer

What is the origin of that $1.20 honey?

I think you guys need to start differentiating honeys in the mind of the public, creating a perception that certain honeys are more valuable than others. That's what we have done over here and guys are now getting good money for honey, excellent even. I cannot imagine plonking along trying to survive at 2 bucks a pound, or even twice that.

But it takes marketing.


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## grozzie2

Oldtimer said:


> What is the origin of that $1.20 honey?


It's Canadian honey off the fields of Alberta, Sakatchwan and Manitoba. I was able to sit in on a meeting of the CHC last weekend, considerable complaints there about current honey prices in Canada, lowball offers from packers. But, is anybody selling at that price ? Everybody I talked to from those areas said no, they aren't selling. Talked to one producer that's sitting on a million pounds of this years crop, not selling. But the question is, how many can afford to sit on that much honey ?

At the same meeting, folks in Ontario were talking about being offered 2.25 for Ontario honey, and even higher numbers for honey produced in Quebec. It's those on the prairies being lowballed.


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## Oldtimer

Is that because if the beekeepers do not cave in and sell, the packers just get cheap imported stuff instead?


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## jean-marc

Historically Canadian honey was 5 cents , maybe 10 cents less than American honey and was viewed as North American honey. I was fine with that, but somehow Canadian honey got lumped into imported honey along with all the transhipped, circumvented honey. I never really understood how that happened. The why is because some are profiting from all the economically motivated adulterated honey.

To answer OT, some packers will get imported stuff. Honey does not have to undergo NMR testing by law and those that profit from selling this type of honey have no interest in making sure that the product they sell is indeed pure honey.

$2.25/lb for Ontario honey works out to $1.76 U.S. Personally I think it is a bit soft. Ontario does not get monster honey crops. I am not sure but I think they are more in the 80-100 pound average, less if they go to blueberry pollination. Nonetheless I suppose it is almost fair and in line with cost of production.

To Honey Householder, it is likely that the packer can get plenty of Canadian honey at that price, until they cannot. This will be the third year of poor prices and some will not be able to continue. In the long term if these prices continue there will be casualties and then there will not be much Canadia honey available. The part that is bizarre is that the supply side in the U.S. is down, 32%, says HH, so essentially th U.S. had been producing 150-160 million pounds in the few years, so roughly 100-110 million pounds this year. Demand is steadily increasing in the U.S. Economics 101 says when supply is down and demand stays the same or increases so will the price. We are not seeing that. The packers aqlso tell us that they cannot use Canadian honey on the shelf because it is not a product of the US. Presumably they fear consummer resistance, that or their label has to reflect the fact that there would be Canadian honey in their jars.

I have notice that American honey on store shelves has gotten fairly dark over the last decade.

To Grozzie, many beekeepers cannot hold on to the crop for very long seeing as how the past 2 years prices have been very poor. So evidently some guys are selling at $1.50 because none of the larger packers and or brokers have called me. I am sure that whoever is selling at $1.50 is not too happy about it but they have bills to pay and so on.

To Eduardo and others, there exists some opportunities to sell honey in bulk for a fair price, Ontario is an example. I have sold my local honey for more than that but this represents a niche market and a small percentage of my total crop. Any specialty honey can fetch a premium, just because there may only be 50 000 to 250 000 pounds of it around. On the other hand there are maybe 500 000 hives on the prairies (Alberta 300 000, Saskatchewan 100 000, and Manitoba with another 100 000) producing a 150 pounds average for a grand total of 75 000 000 pounds, could be as high as 100 000 000 on a good year. These are completely different volumes, therefore the honey has to be exported. I think the average Canadian consumes one pound of honey per year. Unfortunately for Canadian beekeepers we have done a very poor job of creating an alternate market to the U.S. I suppose there was no need in the past, as I think we had been generally treated fairly. 

A possible solution would be to go purchase all the Canadian crop, $200 000 000.00 Canadian would likely do it. How do we set up those Go Fund Me projects? (hehe)

Maybe somebody out there has a powerful banker connection or we can sell honey as a futures commodity. Something has to change for the better.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Oldtimer

Sounds like a crappy situation.

Here in my little country our main exports are agricultural commodities, which includes honey. Being a small bit player in most commodities we found we tend to get screwed over by bigger importing entities, who play one producer off against another. Until a situation comes about where people are going to the wall, there are suicides, etc.

Where we are going now and it's working, is forming what amounts to producer cartels. See Fonterra (milk), zespri (kiwifruit), and there's a new avocado one I don't know the name of, but since they started around 4 years ago growers have gone from pulling out their trees, to getting triple the price and making a good living.

All it takes is someone to organise these things.

My only interest in price of Canadian honey, is that if it is stupidly low, that may eventually come back to bite even here in NZ, as the greatest portion of our honey is exported. I am sure Canada will produce some fine honeys.


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## The Honey Householder

Back in the mid 90's I had a packer tell me, why should I pay you more then what I can buy imported honey for. I told him, one day that is what you will be stuck buying. All because the US producer can't stay in business at $.43 a lb. My parents sold to the packers until I bought them out. In 2006 was the last sells to the big packer from my company at $.79 a lb. Since then my wife opened a retail shop which sell about 15% of our crop. the rest get marketed out to small packer ( beekeepers). $2.50 USD is lowest I have taken in past 5 years. Before that I when out after some of the big packers account.:ws: That sucked. I make more money by brokering loads now at days. 

Sorry no packer or broker going to tell me what they are going to pay me. It has taken years and $ to get the clients that move the tonnage that we produce now at days, but worth every $ I make. Great piece of mind, knowing I'm the one running the show.:thumbsup:


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## jean-marc

Good for you HH. It does take time to build up customers. We sell a fair bit as well to beekeepers. Slowly over time that amount is creeping up. We are just not set up to pack large volumes, maybe one day, if my now young adult children join in. Real estate is stupid expensive here and is a barrier to entry. Maybe in a few years there will be a market adjustment and we can consider packing on a larger scale. In the meantime bulk honey prices are crappy, so we will sit on it as long as possible in the hopes that the market corrects itself in our favor.

Jean-Marc


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## Back in the saddle

The Ontario crop report was just published on 30 October and generally speaking it was a failure. On average it seems that beekeepers are reporting 50% of average. I only returned to beekeeping this year so, to be fair, at an average of about 70 Lbs/colony I am considering my year a win. Now, that said, I have every intention of building this into a business so I am looking at a piece of property upon which to establish a CFIA registered packing plant. Being in Ontario puts me where the market is as well. Provided that I experience a reasonable level of success (And I see no reason why not) I'll go through my domestic production in very short order and I'll be looking to buy. Now, here's where the whole thing get sticky (Bad pun intended). The local commercial guy is selling to retail stores at a rate that puts 1Kg on the shelf for $9.99. Or $120/cs. Store mark-up is 50% so by extraction he's getting $80/cs. Subtract $12/cs for containers and labels and that brings us to $68/cs for 26.4 lbs That, my friends is $2.58/lb Delivered to the store. Now if I am to keep the lights on and pack honey, a wholesale price of $2.25 leaves a margin of 0.33/lb. Bottom line is that simply isn't going to cut it. This probably goes further to explain those drastically low wholesale offers. McCormick swore up and down that they'd be 100% Canadian honey this year but as recently as last month their packages still displayed Argentina and China as product of designations. I KNOW that no-one wants to hear that these wholesale prices are in line with retail but that's just the realities of the current supply chain. I'll be shopping around for some honey sooner or later but I simply cannot pay significantly more than other packers and still remain viable.


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## B&E

Call me sometime. I'd love to chat.

The sad truth though is that if a large Packer is packing many million pounds the profit on each case doesn't need to be what yours is to make money.


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## Riskybizz

"Talked to one producer that's sitting on a million pounds of this years crop, not selling. But the question is, how many can afford to sit on that much honey ?"

Well I know quite a few that produce and warehouse that much quite regularly. With almond pollination what is these days many large honey producers don't really have to dump their crop to pay the bills.


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## Back in the saddle

I'd be happy to give you a ring. Everyone around me gets tired of talking about bees...PM me a phone number when you get a chance.


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## jean-marc

Buddy of mine in Manitoba apparently sold 2 loads of Canadian honey to a U.S. packer on a trial basis... more later if it all works out. Honey went for $1.60 U.S. prompt payment, prompt pickup FOB somewhere in Manitoba. My sense of things is that there is far less honey out there than some packers/brokers would like us to believe.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc

Buddy of mine in Manitoba apparently sold 2 loads of Canadian honey to a U.S. packer on a trial basis... more later if it all works out. Honey went for $1.60 U.S. prompt payment, prompt pickup FOB somewhere in Manitoba. My sense of things is that there is far less honey out there than some packers/brokers would like us to believe.

Argentina's honey should be coming pretty soon. Somehow they always seem to be below projection. I think we are poised to see an increase in prices paid to Canadian beekeepers. We are due, it is not greed motivated.

Jean-Marc


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## B&E

How could we possibly know how much is out there? My sense is there's quite a bit actually. 

I know a few western guys sitting on many a drum. I don't know how this compares to what's normal though.

If there's adulterated honey entering the USA, then the market can not be expected to behave like a normal market.


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## The Honey Householder

Called and talked to a packer the other day because one of my dealers was saying packers selling pallets of buckets for $79 a bucket. All imported Pure Honey and yes $79 a bucket. They was tell me I wasn't the only beekeeper call about there bucket deal. 

At half of the going price here, it's only a matter of time before the beekeepers that bottle for the farm market will be bottling and label it LOCAL HONEY. We have been at $160 a bucket by the pallet for a while, but I'm hearing it from my dealers. How are we going to compete with that? Think about it. If you can buy at $1.35 pack and label at $2.15 a lb. as a smaller guy. You can compete with Walmart with the same product they are selling and still be about to price it higher.


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## jean-marc

duplicate


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## jean-marc

I was told Odem is now offering $1.60/lb. I guess guys have been hanging on to their honey and I also suspect that Odem is aware that the early crop of sunflower, citrus and forest honey has failed in Argentina.

The main flow in Argentina is apparently promising, but some areas are still under water on account of flooding due to excessive rains. I am told it is still to early to tell what the crop will be, seeing as how nobody has started extracting.

A lot of Canadians are still hanging on to their honey and it may look impressive but my sense is still slightly below average crop in Canada. Time will tell. 

For sure adulterated honey skews the market. We have been watching it and feeling the consequences of those actions for what seems like forever, but the msot damaging has been the last 3 crops.

Jean-Marc


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## irwin harlton

Canadian honey is like Canadian oil, held in a captivate market,US imports are way up, but a large US packer states they must carefully watch their inventory


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## B&E

I don't understand. How is it that Canadian Honey is a captive (I think you mean) market? We have a monopoly on something? I think the honey market for beekeepers is the exact opposite of a captive market actually. Unless I'm not understanding what you mean.


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## Oldtimer

I think I see the problem. In the spirit of the dog eat dog world of capitalist business, the packer has a certain ideal minimum inventory he needs. As his stock approaches that level, he calculates what is the minimum price he thinks someone might sell to him for. Then he throws an offer out, to see if someone is desperate enough to take it. Then there's a waiting game. After a while if his inventory is not restocked, he'll up the offer a bit to see if it gets filled now.

After all, the packer is in business to make money, and the more money, the better. And where he gets his money, is the difference between what he pays, and what he sells for. The bigger that margin, the better he does.

So the beekeeper is held hostage, and sales go to the most desperate. In my view, a whole change of marketing ideas is needed on behalf of the beekeepers.


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## jim lyon

I rarely sell honey in the late summer or fall immediately after harvest. I figure at that time I’m competing against producers who either need immediate cash or migratory types that simply want to clear out their inventory before they leave to a new destination. I’ve found buyers start getting interested in the spring and early summer before the bulk of the new crop honey comes onto the market. I do hate to sit on it more than a couple of years, though, as the color does degrade some in storage.


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## B&E

That's good thinking. I find the phone rings at that time of year too.

I wish it solved the cheap import issue though. I don't think a marketing board regionally is the right answer, but I think along those lines.


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## Maybee Apiaries

Oldtimer said:


> I think I see the problem. In the spirit of the dog eat dog world of capitalist business, the packer has a certain ideal minimum inventory he needs. As his stock approaches that level, he calculates what is the minimum price he thinks someone might sell to him for. Then he throws an offer out, to see if someone is desperate enough to take it. Then there's a waiting game. After a while if his inventory is not restocked, he'll up the offer a bit to see if it gets filled now.
> 
> After all, the packer is in business to make money, and the more money, the better. And where he gets his money, is the difference between what he pays, and what he sells for. The bigger that margin, the better he does.
> 
> So the beekeeper is held hostage, and sales go to the most desperate. In my view, a whole change of marketing ideas is needed on behalf of the beekeepers.



How about a co-operative, where beekeepers pool their honey together, own the packing plant and hire someone to get the best price on the open market for finished packed product.? The profits all go to the member beekeepers.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Maybee Apiaries said:


> How about a co-operative, where beekeepers pool their honey together, own the packing plant and hire someone to get the best price on the open market for finished packed product.? The profits all go to the member beekeepers.


_Sounds great_ :thumbsup: ... and such an co-op _already exists_ in Canada.

Its called BeeMaid .... 


> In the early 1950’s a few Western Canadian beekeepers had a dream – a vision to form an organization, owned by Canadian beekeepers, that would have the capability to sell their quality Canadian honey throughout the world. Bee Maid Honey commenced operation in 1954 when the Manitoba and Saskatchewan Honey Co-Operatives agreed to market all their honey jointly. In 1961, the Alberta Honey Co-op participated with the Manitoba and Saskatchewan Co-Ops through Bee Maid Honey in developing the export market, and in 1962 began full participation in both the domestic and export markets.
> 
> _Read the rest here: _
> http://www.beemaid.com/about-bee-maid


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## Maybee Apiaries

Rader Sidetrack said:


> _Sounds great_ :thumbsup: ... and such an co-op _already exists_ in Canada.
> 
> Its called BeeMaid ....


I was being a bit of a smart ass. I'm a proud member, forgot to mention they also make plastic bottles in house. 
It's a great model, unfortunately greedy independent packers still get in the way of profits for beekeepers. Drag the market down with lowball offers and imported honey.


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## Oldtimer

Maybee Apiaries said:


> How about a co-operative, where beekeepers pool their honey together, own the packing plant and hire someone to get the best price on the open market for finished packed product.? The profits all go to the member beekeepers.


That's essentially what some beekeepers in my country have done. They also had to create a public perception that certain honeys are unique, you gotta do that also. As a result the price of honeys produced over here have been leveraged way up.


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## Fusion_power

Not everyone has manuka.


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## Oldtimer

That's the perception. Manuka is just a perception. 

When I started in bees it wasn't worth diddly. It tastes bad, you could maybe sell it to a biscuit making factory.

Then some guys re imaged it.


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## jim lyon

B&E said:


> That's good thinking. I find the phone rings at that time of year too.
> 
> I wish it solved the cheap import issue though. I don't think a marketing board regionally is the right answer, but I think along those lines.


Of course. Many conversations I have with buyers begin with them telling me the price that they can currently buy white honey for out of Canada or Argentina. BTW Sue Honey is a coop as well and claims to be the worlds largest marketing organization. The root cause of low honey prices begins and ends with the “funny honey” that pops up all over the world and all beekeepers are the victims.


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## irwin harlton

I agree Jim, transshipped Chinese crap is the reason for low honey prices, they even have the Japanese fooled, it meets every spec when the Japs send out a order, they always seem to be one step ahead of the adulteration tests.Here in Canada we seem to have one export buyer and 2 large honey packers, the newest one is big into spices, bought its way in , with a 75M purchase of BRONCO BEE, and had to build a packing plant , probably a 5M dollar investment in Mississauga Ontario,Appears they found out the mark up in honey is not like selling spices, so they are low balling on prices O Dam the honey exporter has been and , is busy,, rumors of 3 large US warehouses being used in spring last year to store large quantities of Canadian honey.Warehouses had no windows and birds flew in and out according to truck drivers delivering. The rumor or story goes that over 6 months this honey got US citizenship and increased in value All that being said , its not highly a true story as all imports are documented and would be hard to pull off , but its a good story.Canadian honey like Canadian oil is a captive market


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## Maybee Apiaries

jim lyon said:


> Of course. Many conversations I have with buyers begin with them telling me the price that they can currently buy white honey for out of Canada or Argentina. BTW Sue Honey is a coop as well and claims to be the worlds largest marketing organization. The root cause of low honey prices begins and ends with the “funny honey” that pops up all over the world and all beekeepers are the victims.


I think that's the difference between our Co-op, and Sue Bee. Our co-op packs only member honey, no mixing cheap imports. We probably suffer with returns because of it, but I like the idea of my honey not being blended with crap from overseas. 
We are patiently waiting for prices close to what you guys are getting in the States. I wish Canada and US were on a level playing field when it comes to honey prices.


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## B&E

Irwin, it was Billy - Bee that was purchased. And the plant is in London, Ontario.


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## jean-marc

Heard of a US packer offering $1.65 US/lb to a Canadian beekeeper. Buddy turned it down as he was leaving to go out of the country. Things are starting to look a little more optimistic. I think the gap is closing albeit slowly, between Canadian and American beekeepers. I am hearing $2.30/lb US being offered to US beekeepers.

B&E- I am pretty sure Ol Irwin is aware that it was Billy Bee from the city of London, Ontario. He was just trying to keep at arms length me thinks.

Jean-Marc

P.S- I won't comment on the O Dam or should it be the O ****.


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## jean-marc

duplicate


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## suttonbeeman

The Honey Householder said:


> Called and talked to a packer the other day because one of my dealers was saying packers selling pallets of buckets for $79 a bucket. All imported Pure Honey and yes $79 a bucket. They was tell me I wasn't the only beekeeper call about there bucket deal.
> 
> At half of the going price here, it's only a matter of time before the beekeepers that bottle for the farm market will be bottling and label it LOCAL HONEY. We have been at $160 a bucket by the pallet for a while, but I'm hearing it from my dealers. How are we going to compete with that? Think about it. If you can buy at $1.35  pack and label at $2.15 a lb. as a smaller guy. You can compete with Walmart with the same product they are selling and still be about to price it higher.


yep Ron your right. We have a doctor and business guy buying thousands of lbs of honey ad selling it as ky proud local honey and even running tv ads saying its clover honey from casey co kY. FYI very little clover is made in that area and this year was a poor year for clover everywhere in Ky. another guy is buyimg honey and in 200 Kroger stores selling as local while the price is slightly above national brands . FYI I have approached a attorney....we shall see.no ethics no honesty just greed in this country n
ow


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## clyderoad

suttonbeeman said:


> yep Ron your right. We have a doctor and business guy buying thousands of lbs of honey ad selling it as ky proud local honey and even running tv ads saying its clover honey from casey co kY. FYI very little clover is made in that area and this year was a poor year for clover everywhere in Ky. another guy is buyimg honey and in 200 Kroger stores selling as local while the price is slightly above national brands . FYI I have approached a attorney....we shall see.no ethics no honesty just greed in this country n
> ow


Welcome to my world suttonbeeman.
The amount of 'local' honey sold here would lead one to believe we are in a honey production paradise when the exact opposite is the case!
Expert marketeers are what they are- that take advantage of the uninformed and are very happy to steal their money.
It's become an issue of monumental proportions with no end in sight.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Last barrel (300 kg/660lbs barrels) prices in Europe: November 2017

canola honey 4.50 € or 5.88 USD
same for flower honey

dark dew honey 6.75 € or 8.10 USD

dark fir honey 10 € or 12 USD 

France has a very bad honey harvest this year. Only about 10,000 tons in total! (rumor...)

Prices are going up and up. It would be good, if there were not all the colony losses, along with bad weather, that causes the drop in honey production.


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## Oldtimer

Ya, they banned neonics.


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## jean-marc

Wow those are good prices, but it means nothing if you have little to no production. Are those prices per kg or per lb?

Jean-Marc


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## BernhardHeuvel

Oldtimer said:


> Ya, they banned neonics.


Ha ha. Very funny.  I think it has been some years since the neonics have been "banned" (on some applications only...) while harvests vary from year to year. 

We have problems with bad wax over here in Europe. Something is in the beeswax that kills the brood or at least makes some freaky problems within the hives. I reckon' this is what underlies the problems we are experiencing here. But that is just me.

Prices are per kg. Sorry, I missed that. So read: 

canola honey 2.68 USD per lbs
same for flower honey

dark dew honey 3.68 USD per lbs

dark fir honey 5.46 USD per lbs


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## Oldtimer

BernhardHeuvel said:


> We have problems with bad wax over here in Europe. Something is in the beeswax that kills the brood or at least makes some freaky problems within the hives.


Well if neonics had not been banned a few years back, they would most certainly be getting the blame. But since that is no longer possible, I wonder if that "something" is the harsh, older style agricultural poisons being used now to fill the void and ensure a man can get a crop.

I did read colony losses have been increasing.


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## beekuk

Interesting seeing the different prices.
Average bulk/barrel honey prices, November, in UK are Canola/ordinary floral honey £3 lb or $4.05
Heather honey £4 lb or $5.41

No problems with sprays, wax or bees decreasing, in fact the opposite, they are increasing rather fast.


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## max2

I hear that Capillano is paying $ 4.80/kg ( Aus) at the moment.

Plenty of honey coming in here at the moment


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## MikeJ

I might point out that while European prices for honey look good... one needs to look at an entire market to decide on such a thing.
Do you want to pay what they pay for gas, or electricity, or milk? If I can sell honey for $20/lb but the entire market requires I earn $19/lb to pay for my needs - that isn't such a great price.

just 2 cents


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## beekuk

Tupla.


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## beekuk

MikeJ said:


> I might point out that while European prices for honey look good... one needs to look at an entire market to decide on such a thing.


Mike, get your point and I canna say about Europe, don't know much about them, but I can say or ask for some comparisons about UK and USA, and rekon we are most likely doing better than you with regards cost of living (big picture) and bulk honey prices. Shall we compare setups and employees, etc.


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## johno

Beekuk you have to narrow this down a little are you talking about the cost of living of the burocrats and politicians in London and Brussels against the same in Washington the District of Corruption or are you referring to the peasants like me.
Johno


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## Michael Palmer

beekuk said:


> and rekon we are most likely doing better than you with regards cost of living (big picture) and bulk honey prices.


You probably are.


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## beekuk

johno said:


> Beekuk you have to narrow this down a little are you talking about the cost of living of the burocrats and politicians in London and Brussels against the same in Washington the District of Corruption or are you referring to the peasants like me.
> Johno


 Johno, talking about the peasants, like you *and* me, lol.


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## Oldtimer

It has always been a mystery to me why queens sell for such a small fortune in the UK, but since they do, I see no reason for anyone who can produce and sell a queen over there to be a peasant .


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## beekuk

Oldtimer said:


> I see no reason for anyone who can produce and sell a queen over there to be a peasant .


 I don't think we would be if we didn't have to keep all those politicians in London and Brussels .


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## Back in the saddle

I bought a little in Ontario, for a reasonable FOB price. It won't last me long so I'm looking.


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## greengage

beekuk said:


> I don't think we would be if we didn't have to keep all those politicians in London and Brussels .


Brussels wont be your problem soon so it will be interesting to see how you survive on your own, it will be interesting to see how environmentally friendly you will be and how you become self sufficient in the production of honey and no imports of queens from Italy. The opportunity to make a new start and your own rules will be interesting to watch. There will be billions floating around since you do not have to contribute to Europe and the opportunity to negotiate your own trade deals which will include importation of Honey from organic sustainable sources. Interesting times ahead.


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## Oldtimer

Agreed, you will be fine Beekuk, what ever made sense about having your country run from Germany, or forking out massive sums of money to bankrupt countries that welch on paying it back.

And hey, New Zealand is your old friend from pre EU days, hope you guys remember us and want to pick up doing business again. We even have italian queen bees .

Make friends with the right kind of people.


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## beekuk

Oldtimer said:


> And hey, New Zealand is your old friend from pre EU days, hope you guys remember us and want to pick up doing business again. We even have italian queen bees .


 OT, we already import queens from New Zealand, don't think that has ever stopped, also from Australia and Argentina.

Also package bees imported into UK from Arataki.


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## irwin harlton

Manuka-Honey-Buzz.jpg (49.4 KB) from http://www.beeculture.com/catch-buz...il&utm_term=0_0272f190ab-7faf1a9d93-256239329


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## MikeJ

Oldtimer said:


> Agreed, you will be fine Beekuk, what ever made sense about having your country run from Germany, or forking out massive sums of money to bankrupt countries that welch on paying it back.
> 
> And hey, New Zealand is your old friend from pre EU days, hope you guys remember us and want to pick up doing business again. We even have italian queen bees .
> 
> Make friends with the right kind of people.


OT
Just to point out - the bankrupt countries were basically cornered into taking a bunch of EU loans (EU knowing it couldn't be paid back) to prevent the EU economy from slipping further into a recession. Then the same EU went in and took over the country's assets.... Remember to "no" vote the EU forced to do over?


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## Oldtimer

I know, I followed it closely. But the stupidity of one of those countries in particular was spectacular. They spent most of the money on non productive stuff and frankly, corruption, and ended up with zero to show for it. They ignored guidelines and rules the EU put on them about how to build the economy.

Then when it came payback time they said oh we are broke, shouldn't have to do that. So they get told no, they got to sort their act. So then they think oh we'll vote in a new government and make new rules so we don't have to pay it back. Dreamers. The new government got elected on a we won't pay it back platform, but soon as they take over reality hits, and they are forced to start making payments.

Not that I don't feel sorry for the situation they are now in, but blaming the EU alone is not good enough, they made stunningly bad choices. But yeah, the EU should have never put them in the situation, all the more reason for the UK to get out.


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## Ian

I’m Hearing solid prices between $1.5-1.6 per pound Canadian January.
Way better than a years past


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## irwin harlton

ttps://www.politico.com/newsletters/morning-agriculture/2018/01/17/usda-delays-honey-adulteration-report-075286


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## Beeman24

With Americans getting between 2.10 and 2.20 a pound, I won't be to quick to sell my honey for 1.50-1.60 Canadian. With all the cheating the packers do, (transhipping Chinese honey to get around terriffs, and buying adulterated honey) it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they were buying Canadian honey at these discounted prices, ripping the labels off and slapping American labels on. Pretty easy way to almost double your money. Just my 2 cents


----------



## agricultura forum

Any news on current market, pls?


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## jean-marc

Was offered $1.65/lb canadian that I declined from an American broker. Odem was apparently at $1.60. I guess they did not get the notice that price was higher. I was offered $1.55 ten days ago from the same broker. I guess a slight cause for optimism.

Jean-Marc


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## B&E

I was called last week as well from an American Broker. Offered $1.58. Called back the next day with $1.65. CDN

I know there's some honey out there, and most guys aren't willing to go below $1.80. At the same time, I know many guys who have sold it all already.


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## Roland

Just think..... If it was Steel, Aluminum, and Honey?????(with considerations for our neighbors,eh?)

Crazy Roland


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## jean-marc

I think honey is being thrown in NAFTA talks with respect to duties on agrcultural products.

Some guys are just too hungry. I suppose we all have tobills to pay, but even at $1.80, that is the level at which it should never go below. It has been below that for the last 3 crop years and the industry is starting to suffer.

Jean-Marc


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## B&E

Just got home from the Cost Company. 3kg Kirkland, Unpast., 100% Canadian Honey for $16.98...or 2.57/lbs. That's packed, and trucked from the prairies to Southern On. 

Sorry AB and MB Co-op guys, but as long as beemaid is willing to sell honey at these prices to move that product I don't think you can complain about price. This is a beek own co-op giving your honey away. 

I obviously don't know beemaid's margins, nor costco's, but I would wager that the costco market is where the largest percentage of their honey is moved to. Which means, that we can't expect the price paid to beeks to get any higher than it is now. Because one thing is certain, the price on the shelf at costco will not be going up.

I'm not here to just go off on beemaid, I for one think a co-op is fantastic and I'm really happy to see Canadian honey on the shelf in a place like costco, however I just don't see why they would sell if so cheap. Is there no choice? Would costco just sell foreign crap if beemaid wanted a higher price?


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## Ian

Competition Brian, there are competitors standing within the isles, companies which dwarf us in the retail food sector.
Don’t give that same old line , **** BeeMaid, it’s **** those market conditions


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## B&E

The difference is Ian, those competitors don't have the same product. Apples to apples.


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## Ian

Tell that to the consumer. It’s something we have all been trying to convey for a long time now.
But yes, we are holding most large contracts on the basis of reputation, quality and sourcing assurance. These points are starting to establish recognition again, as consumers shift retail demands


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## Roland

B+E - what does your Costco honey look like? Brown like HF rice syrup or Golden like real honey? Ours is brown in Wisconsin at Costco.

Crazy Roland


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## B&E

It's actually a beautiful white Canadian canola honey. Excellent product. Just being sold too cheap.


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## Brian Suchan

How white is Canadian canola honey? The couple of times I've seen it from the dakotas it hasn't been all that light in color. Somebody needs to post some pics. Thanks


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## grady

B&E said:


> It's actually a beautiful white Canadian canola honey. Excellent product. Just being sold too cheap.


An observation. Possibly an ignorant or naive one. 

I gathered from the Canadian honey council website that about 60% of Canadian bees are on canola. While lighter in color, canola honey isn't necessarily that sweet and sort of has a funky aftertaste. A buyer from a large, U.S. packer once told me they can't sell straight clover honey, even though it tastes great, because the American consumer wouldn't trust the water white color. A golden color is preferred so the sweet clover and alfalfa honeys blend great with darker honeys. 

Is it possible that canola honey is less desirable to packers? If yes, then is the price pressure on Canadian honey as a whole possibly because the majority of the Canadian honey coming to market is canola and less desirable?


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## Ian

That’s ridiculous, funky after taste ?? You mean sweet?? Lol


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## B&E

BS- I have had it as low as 11mil and as high as 26mil.


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## Ian

We get water white here some years on heavy canola clover ,


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## Roland

How fast does your Canola crystallize Ian? A packer wants a product that stays liquid for a long time because crystalized returns cost them money.

Crazy Roland


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## Maybee Apiaries

I can say it will set up within a couple days of extracting here in Alberta. Have had to chisel out the sump and melt out lines more than a few times.


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## Maybee Apiaries

And it isn’t an issue with packers because pasteurizing fixes the issue. But I will say I agree canola has a distinct “tang” to it.


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## The Honey Householder

The darker color honey in the past 5 years has sold faster then the lighter color honey in my operation. We produce a wildflower honey that is 240 mm and it sell out before my 11-18 mm color honey, even when it's priced the same. The packer offered me $1.45 for it, so I buckets it up and sell it off to the beekeepers for $170 a bucket ($2.83 a lb). Packer don't care and beekeeper knows what it takes to produce honey.
I talked to a big honey producer out in SD and they mixed all there melter honey back into the light honey and get the same price. The packer blend it all together, they just would like to give you a reason to pay you less for your darker honey. 

My 2017 crop was about half of what 2016 was. Price now compared to a year ago is up $.40 on the open market. Would hate to be in a coop. right now in the USA with open market being $.11 higher then what they are getting. Just wondering what new crop will bring.


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## mgolden

Maybee Apiaries said:


> And it isn’t an issue with packers because pasteurizing fixes the issue. But I will say I agree canola has a distinct “tang” to it.


This is not my experience. Canola honey is quite sweet and not a lot of other taste. I use it to blend with honey with a "bite" to it and dark in color. Canola honey is light color when liquid and white when crystalized.


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## John Smith

I observe a definite swing away from 'light colored' honey. The 'alternative' view seems to be that if it looks like supermarket honey it is not to be trusted, and on top of that there is the perceived increase in medicinal value of the darker lines.

Recently I added a darker honey to my trading table at a substantial premium in the price. It outsells my traditional favourite varietal (the eucalypt commonly known as Yellow Box).

Years ago I offered my stack for sale to the wholesalers, and mentioned the presence of one of our Australian Eucalypt honeys that is quite strong and dark. Immediately they started slashing their offering price. I kept it a few more years and at the Farmer's Markets it outsold the lighter varieties. When I ran out of the strong honey my patrons were very distressed.

But if I were a wholesale buyer I would offer the producer more money for what he has little of, and poor prices for what he has the most of. SIMPLE! 

Just remember: it is the producer's property and it cannot sell for any price he has not agreed to!


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## max2

John Smith said:


> I observe a definite swing away from 'light colored' honey. The 'alternative' view seems to be that if it looks like supermarket honey it is not to be trusted, and on top of that there is the perceived increase in medicinal value of the darker lines.
> 
> Recently I added a darker honey to my trading table at a substantial premium in the price. It outsells my traditional favourite varietal (the eucalypt commonly known as Yellow Box).
> 
> Years ago I offered my stack for sale to the wholesalers, and mentioned the presence of one of our Australian Eucalypt honeys that is quite strong and dark. Immediately they started slashing their offering price. I kept it a few more years and at the Farmer's Markets it outsold the lighter varieties. When I ran out of the strong honey my patrons were very distressed.
> 
> But if I were a wholesale buyer I would offer the producer more money for what he has little of, and poor prices for what he has the most of. SIMPLE!
> 
> Just remember: it is the producer's property and it cannot sell for any price he has not agreed to!


Hi John,

I'm a very small producer ( up to about 4000 kg /season) but I have noticed the same - darker honeys are often requested.

We don't get many dark honeys, mostly light and medium.

I think the request for darker honey comes from the believe that darker honey are better for you. eg Manuka can be nearly black.


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## The Honey Householder

Just sold the last of my 2016 crop for $2.35. I was offer $1.85 from the same packer last year for that same lot of honey. I guess it does pay to warehouse honey. Must have needed it to, because signed the deal one day and picked it all up the next. I think a lot of packers are running low with last years short crop.


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## jean-marc

I too am hearing of shortages of honey in the USA, and of a slight upward trend in pricing. It is long overdue. Let's all hope for good crop and prices to match.

Jean-Marc


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## jim lyon

Definitely more packer interest right now. One buyer confided to me that "there just dosent seem to be a lot of honey out there".


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## TravisD

Anyone hear anything on sue bee's price?


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## drone79

Just sold 2 loads of honey for 2.40 a pound....Packers are still calling


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## jean-marc

Good for you brother. Wish I could get that for my honey.

Jean-Marc


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## sharpdog

Any word on what packers are offering in Canada?


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## Vance G

Brian Suchan said:


> How white is Canadian canola honey? The couple of times I've seen it from the dakotas it hasn't been all that light in color. Somebody needs to post some pics. Thanks


My canola honey is water white this year and to me tastes like white sugar which makes sense because its main sugar is sucrose I read. people buying a honey bear for tea are the main customer. The people buying buckets and gallons want the same color alfalfa with a stronger taste. Some describe it as bitterness.


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## The Honey Householder

Honey must be really short right now in the US, because I just sold 15 barrels of 2018 clover for $3.05 a lb. Is anyone else seeing this, or did someone just pay to much to the beekeeper? No early honey in my area because of the last two months of rain.


2017 and 2018 were short crop in my area. What is 2019 crop going to bring for honey prices????


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## gmcharlie

The Honey Householder said:


> Honey must be really short right now in the US, because I just sold 15 barrels of 2018 clover for $3.05 a lb. Is anyone else seeing this, or did someone just pay to much to the beekeeper? No early honey in my area because of the last two months of rain.
> 
> 
> 2017 and 2018 were short crop in my area. What is 2019 crop going to bring for honey prices????


we can hope, I cut the number of honey hives this year after last season.


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## jim lyon

Yes, we can hope but I haven't heard anything very positive on honey prices this spring.


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## azbees

What are your bulk prices for honey now?
Also heard Canada is not sending any to USA either


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## jim lyon

https://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf
Not good.


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## Oldtimer

An interesting document Jim.

I would like to subscribe to that myself, is that possible for someone like me offshore, if so how do i subscribe?


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## AstroZomBEE

The USDA honey report is updated monthly, just save the address and check it every month for the updated report.

I keep it as a shortcut on my desktop and reference it as needed.

Aaron


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## jim lyon

Someone in Montana raised 10,000+ lbs of honey off of spurge? I’ve seen bees “fatten up” a little off of the stuff but never enough to harvest.


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## The Honey Householder

NW Ohio crop was above avg. this year. Small lots of barrels that's been sold at $2.65 a lb. to small packers. Talked to a big packer over a week ago. They wasn't buying honey. They bought all they needed for $1.15. I asked them if it was USA honey and they wouldn't say.

At $1.15 how much do you have to avg per. hive to be able to make a living on just honey?


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## BDT123

At $1.15/lb, and running a business, what do you need? Sorry HH, how many hives and how much input? 
1000 hives @ 100 lbs = $ 115,000. Input costs? Labour? Mite treatments? Extraction costs? 
So variable, so many costs, such a small return....Just sayin’....
Best you could do is ban imports. Except from Canada of course. LOL 😂 
Maybe a 400% import duty? From shaky and suspicious countries, of course. Your Prez is cool with duties....
Best to you,
Brian


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## Roland

A buyer in Wisconsin is paying $ 1.70 a pound. Oach. Time to shut down the Phunnny Honey train.

Crazy Roland


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## clyderoad

Oldtimer said:


> An interesting document Jim.
> 
> I would like to subscribe to that myself, is that possible for someone like me offshore, if so how do i subscribe?


Just saw this so I'm a bit dated with response, but here is a link that will get you there:

https://usda.library.cornell.edu/concern/publications/m613mx60p


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## BernhardHeuvel

For those who missed this:

Alert on Honey Authenticity

http://www.honeyauthenticity.org/images/Alert I Honey Authenticity Project.pdf

http://www.honeyauthenticity.org/images/Alert II Honey Authenticity Project final.pdf


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## clyderoad

Thanks Bernhard.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Just curious: Are Saudi Arabic traders contact you for your honey in North America? It seems, they really want to buy tons of it, here in Germany.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Honey


Detailed information on honey production, national apiculture programmes, budget and legal bases.




ec.europa.eu





Direct download:


https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/food-farming-fisheries/animals_and_animal_products/documents/market-presentation-honey_autumn2020_en.pdf


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## Michael Palmer

Roland said:


> A buyer in Wisconsin is paying $ 1.70 a pound. Oach. Time to shut down the Phunnny Honey train.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Heck Roland, you can buy all the honey you want at the US Port of Entry for $0.50/lb. From Vietnam, Ukraine, and other places.


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## sjz

No honey left in western Canada. Just the odd load. So price being offered here is $2.40 CND. I suspect it will be a lot more soon!


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## Roland

Sounds like the Funny honey train is running out of steam??? or just plain de-railed???

Crazy Roland


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## The Honey Householder

Price in the big box store is at a new highs (very little to no push back on price increase). Wholesale honey sales have been very strong at the $2.55 to the small packers. A lot of stockpiling going on this last fall. Getting honey container has been the biggest problem this season. More USA honey containers being produced for 2021. USA needs to get away from the china suppliers of honey containers.


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## Back in the saddle

sjz said:


> No honey left in western Canada. Just the odd load. So price being offered here is $2.40 CND. I suspect it will be a lot more soon!


AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! $2.40/lb is a fantasy especially for that granulating canola honey


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## B2honey

The Honey Householder said:


> Price in the big box store is at a new highs (very little to no push back on price increase). Wholesale honey sales have been very strong at the $2.55 to the small packers. A lot of stockpiling going on this last fall. Getting honey container has been the biggest problem this season. More USA honey containers being produced for 2021. USA needs to get away from the china suppliers of honey containers.


Agreed. I have been having trouble getting containers. I only buy USA made. They seem to be selling out or out of stock though. All kinds of containers


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## calkal

This is my 1st time selling honey in barrels to packers. What price should I expect to see if I sell it in September?


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## sjz

Well in Canada we are at $3.00 per pound. Maybe more. There’s very little white honey in North America so will only continue to go up. Would think you could get $2.50.


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## TravisD

State side I think we’re looking at 2.15-2.30. Although those are just estimates at the moment, haven’t received a concrete price from my packers


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## calkal

sjz said:


> Well in Canada we are at $3.00 per pound. Maybe more. There’s very little white honey in North America so will only continue to go up. Would think you could get $2.50.


Thank you.


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## calkal

TravisD said:


> State side I think we’re looking at 2.15-2.30. Although those are just estimates at the moment, haven’t received a concrete price from my packers


Thank you.


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## Oldtimer

sjz said:


> Well in Canada we are at $3.00 per pound. Maybe more. There’s very little white honey in North America so will only continue to go up. Would think you could get $2.50.


Is that $US or Canadian?


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## sjz

$3 was our Canadian price at this time. US price I’ve been hearing is $2.30 to $2.40. $2.50 was price I suspect it to be in Sept.


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## Butler101

Update on Canadian barrel pricing? What are ppl seeing? Im in Ontario so I don’t know how bad the extreme drought has affected the western production.


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## The Honey Householder

We had a below avg. crop this year in NW Ohio. Sales have been very strong. Bucket price from $190-$250. Barrel price from $2.95-$3.15 a lb. With those kind of honey prices is anyone selling bees off in the spring. As a big honey producer we are looking to sell very few bees in 2022. Hope honey price holds.


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## Vance G

Most in Montana had a crop failure! We went into winter dry so we need a lot of snow and spring rains or it will not be good next crop.


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## kalmon.calj

The Honey Householder said:


> We had a below avg. crop this year in NW Ohio. Sales have been very strong. Bucket price from $190-$250. Barrel price from $2.95-$3.15 a lb. With those kind of honey prices is anyone selling bees off in the spring. As a big honey producer we are looking to sell very few bees in 2022. Hope honey price holds.


Are people really getting $3 a pound for honey in the barrel?


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## jim lyon

kalmon.calj said:


> Are people really getting $3 a pound for honey in the barrel?


Not in trailer load lots.


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## The Honey Householder

Jim's right. I sold 20 barrels to a small packer for $3.05. and smaller lots for $3.15. All looking for local honey. Takes longer to move in smaller lots, but pays better. Short crops sometimes pay better then big ones.


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