# Did my luck run out? Finally got a case of AFB? HELP - Photo ID



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I am new and may not know what I am talking about. I think in most states that this is the one disiese that requires notifying the state athourity and that they have guide lines on how to handle the cases worked out. I may be wrong on this and so letting more experiance bee keeper tune in is probly good. I did read up a little but am getting a bit more senile and don't retain info that is not needed at the time like I should be able to.
Good luck
gww


----------



## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

If you lived in PA I'd tell you to call the state inspector immediately.


----------



## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

That does not look like AFB. AFB infected larvae would be brown in color, that looks white and good. Plus, if it was AFB, your nose would tell you- it's FOUL.

Here's a picture of AFB:

http://www.afb.org.nz/ropiness-test


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Well I am No expert and am not intending to challenge those that are. But I have seen a few cases of AFB in my days, And that looks like AFB to me. Depending on how long the brood has been dead determines the color of the Ropy brood. Also how strong the odor is. Beltsville Lab can verify for sure but Time can be of the essence in the case of AFB. 

Antibiotics, in non-resistant strains of the pathogen, can prevent the vegetative state of the bacterium forming. Drug treatment to prevent the American foulbrood spores from successfully germinating and proliferating is possible using oxytetracycline hydrochloride (Terramycin). Another drug treatment, tylosin tartrate, was approved by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in 2005.
Chemical treatment is sometimes used prophylactically, but this is a source of considerable controversy because certain strains of the bacterium seem to be rapidly developing resistance. In addition, hives that are contaminated with millions of American foulbrood spores have to be prophylactically treated indefinitely. Once the treatment is suspended the American foulbrood spores germinate successfully again leading to a disease outbreak.
Because of the persistence of the spores (which can survive up to 40 years), many State Apiary Inspectors require an AFB diseased hive to be burned completely. A less radical method of containing the spread of disease is burning the frames and comb and thoroughly flame scorching the interior of the hive body, bottom board and covers. Dipping the hive parts in hot paraffin wax or a 3% sodium hypochlorite solution (bleach) also renders the AFB spores innocuous. It is also possible to sterilize an infected hive without damaging either the structure of the hive or the stores of honey and pollen it contains by sufficiently lengthy exposure to an atmosphere of ethylene oxide gas, as in a closed chamber, as hospitals do to sterilize equipment that cannot withstand steam sterilization.
Brigham Young University is currently studying the use of phage therapy to treat American foulbrood.


----------



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

In Virginia, you have to report it. Under the new Federal guidelines, you can't treat with anti biotics w/o a veternarian writing a scrip (good luck with that). I cannot believe that California hasn't 1000x more regulations on this than anyone else. Burn the bees and the equipment before they infect your other hives. Good luck.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

I was able to find a few darker/older cells that also roped. That with the sunken sells and brood pattern I'd say I have a problem.

It seems the best method is to simply burn the hive. Do I also need to burn my gloves, suit, hive tool, smoker etc. How infectious is this stuff?


----------



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

I would burn it all. Cheaper than getting new hives. I would also consider treating your other hives with Terramycin, but may need a scrip.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I think in MO you have to report it and even if burning, you have to do it buy a certain method of burning, like in a hole big enough for the hive and under supervision. I do think they had a method of swarming the bees and saving them by not giving them comb of feed for a couple of days so that they are sure to proccess the honey that might be in thier gut rather then store it.

I don't always understand things I read untill I do it several times. If I had it, I would decide if I wanted to involve the state and if I decided I would, then I would just ask them my options and follow thier instructions. If I were to handle it on my own even if against the law, I would probly search as hard as I could for the proper way to burn. Then I would probly buy a couple of the kits you can buy and I would be checking some of the honey in the other hives just to see what kind of problim I really may have. If you want to take the risk, you could do a fast check with one of the kits that you could probly get in a couple days. I think it only checks in the honey though.
There is also a milk test but I would have to look up about that also and might not understand what I read till some one who had been through it walked me through.

I feel for you and wish you the best of luck.
gww


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

gww said:


> I think in MO you have to report it and even if burning, you have to do it buy a certain method of burning, like in a hole big enough for the hive and under supervision. I do think they had a method of swarming the bees and saving them by not giving them comb of feed for a couple of days so that they are sure to proccess the honey that might be in thier gut rather then store it.
> 
> I don't always understand things I read untill I do it several times. If I had it, I would decide if I wanted to involve the state and if I decided I would, then I would just ask them my options and follow thier instructions. If I were to handle it on my own even if against the law, I would probly search as hard as I could for the proper way to burn. Then I would probly buy a couple of the kits you can buy and I would be checking some of the honey in the other hives just to see what kind of problim I really may have. If you want to take the risk, you could do a fast check with one of the kits that you could probly get in a couple days. I think it only checks in the honey though.
> There is also a milk test but I would have to look up about that also and might not understand what I read till some one who had been through it walked me through.
> ...


Hoalt milk test Randy Oliver has a very clear write up on his site


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

I went through the entire brood chamber and was unable to find another case or anything like it. On the one frame shown in the photo - I uncapped a few of the dimpled caps and there were, what seemed to be, entirely healthy pupae which I would guess to be emerging in the next few days.

I looked at the larvae on other frames and they all seem entirely healthy. I noticed maybe 3 cells in the entire hive that were being uncapped by the workers. These did have a gooey substance in them but I could not get it to rope.

I may need to resort to some sort of testing method to be sure.

There is a lot of brood and eggs. Is it possible this is something else?
If caught early enough, is it possible to treat?
Do all hives have some amount of AFB?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> That does not look like AFB. AFB infected larvae would be brown in color, that looks white and good. Plus, if it was AFB, your nose would tell you- it's FOUL.
> 
> Here's a picture of AFB:
> 
> http://www.afb.org.nz/ropiness-test


 I agree. I didn't see sunken caps or punctured caps in the photo. Send a sample to your State Apiarist or better yet the Beltsville Bee Lab, Beltsville, MD.


----------



## tikkay (Feb 10, 2017)

Agreed. I don't see it either.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

If you follow sqkcrk's advice (And I believe he knows his stuff) could you give a follow up on the results to this thread. I think I am learning something here.
Thank you
gww


----------



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Just consider that by the time these labs get back to you it might have spread to your other hives and your neighbors. Right now you are talking about one hive in a couple of days you could be talking about all 7 plus your neighbors. I don't think it is worth the risk IMHO.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

I'm ordering a test kit. I can't seem to find it in the hive again, other than a few shriveled up larvae. I don't see any scaling or other symptoms...other than my own paranoia. The hive smells entirely fine but the shriveled up larvae do have a stench I have never experienced.

Good thing Mann Lake delivers next day here...

If it is AFB, what all should I burn? I'd imagine I could heat up hive tools past the sport survival point in the fire. What about gloves? I'm still unsure as to how contagious this AFB really is. Do the bees need to ingest the spores to be infected?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The Classic signs of AFB are a greasy look/sheen to the surface of the capped cells, sunken caps, punctured holes in some caps, and if you get your nose close to the comb, a rotten smell. I'd tell you that it smells like hide glue, but no one knows what hide glue smells like. Cabinet makers stopped using it long ago. The punctured caps are there because some bees chewed them open, knowing that the larvae was dead and rotting.

Open one or more of those caps and, if you see a mass of brown or brownish looking goo, stick a small stick into the cell and stir. Slowly pull the stick from the cell and the goo will "rope" like rubber cement. If it doesn't then it's probably not AFB. But just to be sure, send a sample to the Beltsville Bee Lab. Websearch that for the address and how to package.

Sometimes, once you know what to look for, you can see AFB scale in the cells. This is the infected larvae that has rotted and dried laying in the cell. It cannot be removed. If you find that, it's the real stuff. And all combs should be burned. Cut a section of comb to send to the Lab for verification.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

billabell said:


> Just consider that by the time these labs get back to you it might have spread to your other hives and your neighbors. Right now you are talking about one hive in a couple of days you could be talking about all 7 plus your neighbors. I don't think it is worth the risk IMHO.


 Not if one packages and stores it so bees can't get to it. It's not exactly the common cold or the flu.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

ilivetobealive said:


> I'm ordering a test kit. I can't seem to find it in the hive again, other than a few shriveled up larvae. I don't see any scaling or other symptoms...other than my own paranoia. The hive smells entirely fine but the shriveled up larvae do have a stench I have never experienced.


 Could be European foulbrood. Were the larvae curled up in the cell not aligned with the cell? Do they have a somewhat yellow tinge color?


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

The larvae that didn't look "right" were curled up the cell (spiraled). I would say they were slightly yellow but I thought that was just them turning "dead". The cells I noticed the "brown goop" in - I couldn't get to rope. It's also probably .01% of the hive. The rest of the brood chamber looks entirely fine, healthy eggs, larvae, etc. It seemed to be mostly on one frame, which was strange.

I understand EFB is far less serious. A round of antibiotics can kill it in its vegetative state. Not that the needed antibiotics are easy to get...

Are all my signs more closely related to EFB?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The way you describe it, I'd say so. I take it the colony is dead?


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Nothing in that pic that screams AFB to me.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

What is your mite level now? On my 3rd year I threw away 25 frame of good drawn comb because of the early Spring mite
infection. Thinking that it was AFB when in fact it was PMS (mite infected dead cap larvae) crashing my hives. My recommendation is for
you to bring in a bee buddy from a local bee club if you have one. They can diagnose and give better advice in this situation. If it is indeed AFB then time is not on your side. What seems to be healthy hive at first will be showing signs pretty soon since you cannot be there and don't think you want to disrupt them everyday either. Hurry up to get this issue resolved in whatever way you can including temporary isolation until the facts are in.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

beepro said:


> What is your mite level now? On my 3rd year I threw away 25 frame of good drawn comb because of the early Spring mite
> infection. Thinking that it was AFB when in fact it was PMS (mite infected dead cap larvae) crashing my hives. My recommendation is for
> you to bring in a bee buddy from a local bee club if you have one. They can diagnose and give better advice in this situation. If it is indeed AFB then time is not on your side. What seems to be healthy hive at first will be showing signs pretty soon since you cannot be there and don't think you want to disrupt them everyday either. Hurry up to get this issue resolved in whatever way you can including temporary isolation until the facts are in.


That's good input. I use oxalic acid on all my hives...however...this one overwintered in its nuc and I can't fit the vaporizer into the nuc hole. The mite counts might be rather high. I was going to do a treatment today but ran into this problem.

I ordered the kits so we'll see what they say.

As for isolation. I have nowhere else to put the bees. I fear if I move it to another part of the yard the field bees will drift over into another hive contaminating it. I'll have the results by the end of the week and as it's hard to even find in the hive it may not be as urgent as we think. If it is either of the foulbrood it's definitely not at an advanced stage. I think a few days isn't going to be a huge issue. I'll treat them for mites as well just in case it isn't foulbrood and the mites are the problem.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> The way you describe it, I'd say so. I take it the colony is dead?


Not dead. I shook the bees off the frame to check it. It's actually doing quite well. Just saw these warning signs...


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Doing a little research, my hive looks exactly like those listed with PMS. Let's hope that's it!


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If it is the PMS then get rid of the mites will clean up the hive eventually. If it is AFB you need to get rid of this nuc hive from
your apiary. Also, consider finding another out yard for any unforeseen future bee issues. This is because I don't want
to restart over again after all the hard work being put in. Consider getting some mite fighting hygienic queens this season too. Only a few to try will do. I have
good experience with them last season and will order more this time.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Funny you'd say that. I have Saskatraz Queens on the way as well as a couple other VSH strains. I was going to requeen this hive. Hopefully still can if the foulbrood tests show negative.

I did an oxalic treatment on it tonight. I'll check the miteboard in the morning...This might be the first time I'm actually hoping for a high mite count.


----------



## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

billabell said:


> Just consider that by the time these labs get back to you it might have spread to your other hives and your neighbors. Right now you are talking about one hive in a couple of days you could be talking about all 7 plus your neighbors. I don't think it is worth the risk IMHO.


If you send a sample of the brood the test takes 5 minutes - ask them to e-mail the result


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> Nothing in that pic that screams AFB to me.


Agree


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

ilivetobealive said:


> Funny you'd say that. I have Saskatraz Queens on the way as well as a couple other VSH strains. I was going to requeen this hive. Hopefully still can if the foulbrood tests show negative.
> 
> I did an oxalic treatment on it tonight. I'll check the miteboard in the morning...This might be the first time I'm actually hoping for a high mite count.


Are there very many bees in this hive? Are there any/many frames of capped brood and other necessary components? Is it a colony worth saving?


----------



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Not if one packages and stores it so bees can't get to it. It's not exactly the common cold or the flu.


My understanding of the op is that the hive is still active and the bees could carry it to other hives.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

More likely that other hives would rob the honey from it and carry it home.

If the colony is too weak to defend itself from robbing then the entrance needs reducing down to one bee at a time and all other holes plugged.

As has been stated before, to quote Jim Lyon, a third generation beekeeper who runs thousands of hives, "Nothing in that pic that screams AFB to me." So there really is nothing to worry about in regards to AFB. And EFB can be cleared up by dusting with Terrimycin mixed with powdered sugar, if you can get it, and requeening.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=7458

On Randy Oliver's site several times he has been surprised by the out come of lab test (link above) for both AFB and EFB each time he thought was the other. And he was there in person inches from the disease, much different than looking at a picture on a computer. 

"Practical application: Some of these symptoms can be confused with those of AFB—I was surprised when I sent a very similar-looking sample to the lab last season and it came back positive for AFB! My quandary is that I wish to burn any AFB combs,"

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-18a-colony-collaspse-revisited/

There is enough in your pictures to suspect either, and PMS. A lab test needs to be done. It will be the only way you can be 100% sure and make a good decision what to do with the equipment and bees. Read about a few cases of false negatives with test sticks, with shipping they will cost more than the free lab test. I would priority mail your sample. Results take about ten days. Ensure your hive does not get robbed. With both AFB and EFB robbing is the main cause. If it's AFB you've probably had it a while, ten days is not going to make a difference unless your hive is robbed. EFB is very common in California; a few years ago many packages out of CA had EFB. 

I would also do "Holst milk test" while you wait for your results from the lab. Directions on R Oliver's site same link above.

Terrimycin only suppresses both AFB and EFB, as soon as the antibiotic wares off it can come back. It does give the bees a chance to clean house. An nectar flow may also reduce EFB. When condition of the hive return even a year(s) later the diseases can too.

Things I could not see in your picture; Any dead off colored open brood? The roping was that a capped cell or open cell. The roping is it roping or is it snotty? Did you open any of the perforated cells what's inside?

Here some pictures for you to compare;

Look at all the people that though this confirmed by the lab AFB hive was caused by low pollen, and I though it was EFB;
Showing the importance of a lab test.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...en-Starvation-look-like&p=1388528#post1388528

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...d-what-options-(-quot-It-s-complicated-quot-)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?298750-Pseudo-Laying-Workers

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Newbie-could-use-advice&p=1293636#post1293636


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Lots to go over so I'll be quick:

The hive is still healthy and two deeps strong. Although it is my weakest hive I wouldn't worry about any robbing going on. I do have the entrance reducer on and with the major nectar flow on right now the bees aren't interested in robbing. I even left out some honey comb I scraped out of another hive, my strongest, and the bees weren't interested in taking it. I of course, however, took the comb away when I realized it was left out. Ants, yes, bees, not currently interested.

The hive does have all stages of brood. I was able to find capped cells with soon to emerge bees, as well as capped cells with healthy larvae. The chewed open cells, which were few, are the ones that had either a dead larvae or "goop" that I was unable to get to rope. The one in the photo, I may now realize, only strung out because it was a healthy larvae that I smashed and part of it strung together. Nothing else would rope.

I noticed no foul smell, except for the rotten dead larvae in about 4 of the cells I could find, and only when I put the toothpick up to my nose. However, this is also signs of PMS as it seems any rotting larvae smell about the same?

Testing:
I'm gathering a sample this morning to send to Beltsville. In the mean time I can have the test kits here tomorrow. Unless they are entirely useless...a false negative can be disastrous...but is there a chance it could also give a false positive? Do they list any accuracy numbers? I was unable to find any.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Looking back on my video I may be over-reacting. Except for ONE cell...shown at the end of the video.

Before watching, again yes, the hive is still very much alive. I shook the bees off before taking the frame inside for a better view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmcuHrCLo9g&feature=youtu.be


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>I'm gathering a sample this morning to send to Beltsville.

Good, best thing you can do no matter what the outcome.

In my opinion it's more of a field test, that a pressing decision can be made immediately. I have no first hand experience with the test sticks. Not sure of any percentages but imagine user error may come into play. If it's 99.9 percent accurate that still means someone somewhere will get a misdiagnosis. There are also two; one for EFB and one for AFB which one would you test for? With the resent information you posted and you movie, looks less likely it AFB. 

If you have not ordered the test sticks I might wait and see what Beltsville says. You might also do a "Holst milk test" in the mean time. More picture of your open brood into the cells might help to get a better diagnosis. 

Look at the treads I posted in #14 the last three have pictures, all confirmed EFB from the lab. Does your open brood look like that?

Good luck, please post your lab results when you get them.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm in the same boat. I have one hive that I found Saturday where the brood is getting spotty and there are some perforated caps, there are some slightly sunken caps but they aren't greasy looking. There is ropy brown goop in the cells with the perforated caps. The only thing that is not AFB'esque is that there is NO foul odor. None. The old brown brood comb still smells like brood comb. The uncapped brood looks fine. I called the state inspector Saturday when I found it and he came out today. He said if it is AFB, that it's just starting and that I noticed it earlier than at any other time he's been called. That at least made me feel better about paying close enough attention to what's going on in the hives. On the other hand, he's also fairly new to the job, starting about 5 years ago. He took samples to send to Beltsville. He said he's definitely not convinced that it is AFB. I'm not so optomistic, although I've never actually seen it before, but then again I'm a raging pessimist.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I don't treat for mites so I occasionally see bad cases of PMS and to an untrained eye it can resemble AFB I know I freaked out first time I saw it


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Harley Craig said:


> I don't treat for mites so I occasionally see bad cases of PMS and to an untrained eye it can resemble AFB I know I freaked out first time I saw it


I've had a hive with PMS, that's not what this one has. 

I did have a long time beek tell me today that if they have been feeding on Buckeye blooms it can cause the same symptoms as AFB. I have no idea if that's true or not but thought some of you might know.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Brad Bee did you do a Holst milk test? Do you have any pictures to post? 

>NO foul odor. None

From the hive or one of the dead brown goop larva?


----------



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/holst_milk_test.html
Notice how many billions of spores are in one (1) infected larvae.


----------



## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> The nuc was exploding out of its 5 frames so I combined it with the 10 frame box making it 2 deep. Nothing unusual right?


It will be interesting to hear the Beltsville results. Reading your post and pic, the first thing that came to mind was chilled brood.


----------



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Nobody I know, except our bee inspector, claims to have ever smelled it. He says it smells like "pot glue". However, nobody outside the antique furniture restoration business knows what pot glue smells like.

So I recently bought some hide glue from a supplier of furniture tools, and intend to try it. But to know I've got the right stuff, I need to corner the bee inspector and have him do the sniff test on this glue. At which point I'll know if we can demonstrate the smell for the club.

Said bee inspector says there is another brood disease that ropes.

Do you see the characteristic pupal tongues? If dried scales are present, these should be absolute proof of AFB.

http://www.afb.org.nz/pupal-tongue


----------



## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

"Nobody I know, except our bee inspector, claims to have ever smelled it. He says it smells like "pot glue". However, nobody outside the antique furniture restoration business knows what pot glue smells like."

What he is referring to is hide glue, it comes in dried flakes and it is heated in a pot to liquify as glue. That is where the smell comes from and to my nose it is realy not a bad smell. I have used it on a few projects. If you have dogs when you heat it in the pot they will knock down your shop door to get some.
I have never asked where or from what animal(s) the dried hide comes from. Don't want to know.


----------



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

billabell said:


> What he is referring to is hide glue, it comes in dried flakes and it is heated in a pot to liquify as glue. That is where the smell comes from and to my nose it is realy not a bad smell. I have used it on a few projects. If you have dogs when you heat it in the pot they will knock down your shop door to get some.
> I have never asked where or from what animal(s) the dried hide comes from. Don't want to know.


Hide glue is what I bought to try, sold as a bag of little pellets. They say to soak the pellets in water, then heat it when you're ready to glue. I figured that was what "pot glue" meant. I now have a pound of it I need to re-bag in smaller samples for the sniff test.

Apparently, this stuff is the reason decrepit old horses were nicknamed "Old Glue."


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Well, one thing I've learned is there are a lot of opinions out there!

While we wait for the test results, which seems to be the only way to really tell, let's discuss a few other things:

Do all hives have Foulbrood spores in them? Foulbrood seemed to be the huge issue before we were hit with mites.

How are hygienic bees able to keep it under control? The importance of genetics keeps coming up with foulbrood. Are certain bees able to remove infected larvae without infecting the rest of the hive?

Why would one of my hives get it...and the rest not show a single sign? Issues I'm having with them is they are too strong and keep wanting to swarm.


----------



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

In Virginia, only old-timers, really large operations, and the state inspectors are likely to have ever encountered AFB. It is blessedly rare. But it is still taken very seriously, and it the main thing the inspection program guards against. Which says inspection and good training for beekeepers works.

Same here with the boll weevil in cotton ... it has been eradicated in Virginia. But you need a permit to grow cotton in Virginia, even small ornamental plots, because we want to keep it that way.

Our inspector also says he has not seen tracheal mites in years. Nosema apis is rare. Nosema cerenae is common. These are all big changes over the last decade or so. There's a feeling that saving the adult bees in a hive with AFB may be a losing bet ... they've demonstrated they're susceptible. Most beekeepers would rather not take the chance, but instead replace them with more resistant bees.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Phoebee said:


> In Virginia, only old-timers, really large operations, and the state inspectors are likely to have ever encountered AFB. It is blessedly rare. But it is still taken very seriously, and it the main thing the inspection program guards against. Which says inspection and good training for beekeepers works.
> 
> Same here with the boll weevil in cotton ... it has been eradicated in Virginia. But you need a permit to grow cotton in Virginia, even small ornamental plots, because we want to keep it that way.
> 
> Our inspector also says he has not seen tracheal mites in years. Nosema apis is rare. Nosema cerenae is common. These are all big changes over the last decade or so. There's a feeling that saving the adult bees in a hive with AFB may be a losing bet ... they've demonstrated they're susceptible. Most beekeepers would rather not take the chance, but instead replace them with more resistant bees.


There is that term again "resistant bees". Per my last post I'm curious as to what might make one line of bees resistant where others are not? Are they naturally not susceptible to the disease? Or are they simply better and cleaning it out when THEY find it?

I honestly have no clue if AFB is common out here. There is very little information on local problems in my area. I imagine since somewhere around 2/3 of all commercial beekeepers come here in the spring to pollinate - that it's a recipe for disaster.

I did show the video and pictures to my friend and local commercial beekeeper. He didn't see anything that flagged foulbrood to him and said he rarely, if ever, sees it. Since the USDA test will also test for nosema and mites I'm curious to find out if there are any other issues.

I'm about 75% sure it's a genetic issue. Per my notes I found superscedure cells in this hive a few weeks ago and the queen's wings are all chewed up. I'm thinking even the bees know something is wrong.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Brad Bee did you do a Holst milk test? Do you have any pictures to post?
> 
> >NO foul odor. None
> 
> From the hive or one of the dead brown goop larva?


No test, and sorry I didn't/haven't taken any pictures. Samples have been sent to Beltsville and the hive entrance was already reduced but I reduced it even more so to prevent any attempt at robbing. 

No smell from the hive or the goop. The inspector told me he encountered some last year that was bad enough that he smelled it when he got out of his truck in the bee yard. He also stuck his head over the hole in the inner cover when I removed the telescoping cover. He took a big sniff and said he had never seen AFB that he couldn't smell. I don't know how much he's seen, but he's much less convinced that I have it than I am, but again, I'm a pessimist.


----------



## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Phoebee said:


> ...*There's a feeling that saving the adult bees in a hive with AFB may be a losing bet ... they've demonstrated they're susceptible.* Most beekeepers would rather not take the chance, but instead replace them with more resistant bees.


AFAIK, the adult bees are NOT susceptible. The route of infection is through the food fed to the larvae, that's why it's called foul*brood*, infected brood do not survive to become adult bees- the spores mature and spread throughout the hive, and continue the process by being fed to more larvae. That is why hives are burned and buried, so that any surviving spores (if any) cannot be carried to other hives.

As to EFB- IIRC, the larvae die *before* the cells are capped, and therefore never get capped so depressed, pinholed cappings will not be observed for that disease.


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I doubt it is AFB. Doesn't look at all like it.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

History dated way back that people do not take baths in that ear instead they use heavy perfumes and scents to masked their body odors. And the bee history before and even some today was that the domesticated bees are bred for a specific docile trait that the beekeeper does not wear any protective clothing on a hive check. This docile trait also make the bees less sensitive so they can be easily handled. I'll bet less sensitive to the mites invasion too. Imagine a kitty cat or a dog that you can pet it. If you ever try to pet your bees that they allow you to while they're on the top bars that would be another feeling. Some of them will staired back at you afterward with a strange look like what are you doing. Though not all bees can be pet or less sensitive, the highly hygienic mite resistant bees I have now will not let any mite stay on their body. One newly emerged bee actually shiver like a sonic toothbrush when an innocent free running mite tried to land on her off from another bee nearby. Another housekeeping bee even carry the dead bees away when they're on the ground. The hive stand is almost 1.5 feet off the ground. Then there is another type of bees using allogrooming to keep themselves clean. The vsh bees will uncap the infected larva inside a cap cell. I have documented the allogrooming trait on you tube vids. I have pics of the vsh uncapped the larva cell. So it goes that bees that bred for a specific trait will keep the hive clean and many diseases off themselves. It is more like a preventative measure just like we eat well and exercise to keep ourselves fit and healthy. Another beekeeper experimented with infecting the queen larvae with AFB to find resistant and had succeeded in doing so. Last season I've experimented on breeding queens infested in a heavy mite environment. Then removed all the cap mite frames at the end of the season to allow the early Spring expansion almost mite free. Two nuc hives, one including the mite bee bomb hive, have zero mite in them. No chemical treatment so far. It all boils down to whether or not the bees you keep already have these traits incorporated into them. The Glennn bees along with other bee testing station had selected and bred these bees before. Your answer is we on purpose selected for the disease and mite resistant traits over many bee generation. The line not selected for a specific trait will not have them including the many common diseases that plagued our bees today.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Good AND bad news.

Good news is we tested NEGATIVE for AFB.

Bad news is we did test positive for EFB.

As there are so few cells of infected larvae I'd say it's a VERY early case. I counted 3 warped larvae on the most infected frame. I couldn't find any others with bad larvae. Again, this hive is 2 deeps strong.

Now about treatment?

Some say it will go away with the right care?

I have queens coming next week, do I dare requeen? The area I cut out for testing had 3 queen cups in it. I think the bees know, better than me, that something is wrong with this old battered queen. (Wings half chewed off)

Treatment would be easy if I could ever get a hold of the antibiotics. Is there another, surefire way, to cleanse this hive? At least get them to the point they can fight off the rest of it on their own?


----------



## nediver (May 26, 2013)

That is good news. Keep us posted.


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

ilivetobealive said:


> Is there another, surefire way, to cleanse this hive? At least get them to the point they can fight off the rest of it on their own?


shake them out, pull all the frames and replace with foundation and don't feed them sugar water for a week or so. never tried it but others have and say it works, requeening also works, the rumor is.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

ilivetobealive said:


> Good AND bad news.
> 
> Good news is we tested NEGATIVE for AFB.
> 
> ...


Not surprised at the diagnosis. Surefire? EFB responds well to TM but the powers that be decided to make that difficult for beekeepers to obtain. I think of EFB as a result of hive stress, the more stresses on a hive the greater the probability it will show up. Right or wrong for all practical purposes, I also think of it as one in the same with parasitic mite syndrome in that it comes and goes with conditions. Its certainly not a death sentence for a hive. My advice, if you don't want to purse antibiotics, is to requeen and hope that a nice spring flow will bring them out of it. Also monitor hive activity closely if it starts to dwindle and becomes a candidate for robbing.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> shake them out, pull all the frames and replace with foundation and don't feed them sugar water for a week or so. never tried it but others have and say it works, requeening also works, the rumor is.


 The one time I shook a colony of bees onto foundation they left the next day.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beepro said:


> History dated way back that people do not take baths in that ear instead they use heavy perfumes and scents to masked their body odors. And the bee history before and even some today was that the domesticated bees are bred for a specific docile trait that the beekeeper does not wear any protective clothing on a hive check. This docile trait also make the bees less sensitive so they can be easily handled. I'll bet less sensitive to the mites invasion too. Imagine a kitty cat or a dog that you can pet it. If you ever try to pet your bees that they allow you to while they're on the top bars that would be another feeling. Some of them will staired back at you afterward with a strange look like what are you doing. Though not all bees can be pet or less sensitive, the highly hygienic mite resistant bees I have now will not let any mite stay on their body. One newly emerged bee actually shiver like a sonic toothbrush when an innocent free running mite tried to land on her off from another bee nearby. Another housekeeping bee even carry the dead bees away when they're on the ground. The hive stand is almost 1.5 feet off the ground. Then there is another type of bees using allogrooming to keep themselves clean. The vsh bees will uncap the infected larva inside a cap cell. I have documented the allogrooming trait on you tube vids. I have pics of the vsh uncapped the larva cell. So it goes that bees that bred for a specific trait will keep the hive clean and many diseases off themselves. It is more like a preventative measure just like we eat well and exercise to keep ourselves fit and healthy. Another beekeeper experimented with infecting the queen larvae with AFB to find resistant and had succeeded in doing so. Last season I've experimented on breeding queens infested in a heavy mite environment. Then removed all the cap mite frames at the end of the season to allow the early Spring expansion almost mite free. Two nuc hives, one including the mite bee bomb hive, have zero mite in them. No chemical treatment so far. It all boils down to whether or not the bees you keep already have these traits incorporated into them. The Glennn bees along with other bee testing station had selected and bred these bees before. Your answer is we on purpose selected for the disease and mite resistant traits over many bee generation. The line not selected for a specific trait will not have them including the many common diseases that plagued our bees today.


 All that text crammed in together is hard to read. May I suggest paragraphs?


----------



## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I did not read all the posts....I JUST had AFB in July and burned 11 hives according to NYS bee laws. That first photo does NOT look like AFB. I am sure everyone told you the symptoms. I would like to address the brown gooey stuff that didn't rope; it could be what they call old fashioned EFB, brown gooey and does NOT rope as far as AFB.


----------



## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Also check out NY Bee Wellness utube video with a Randy Oliver doing the Holts milk test.


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> The one time I shook a colony of bees onto foundation they left the next day.


see it did fix the problem now didn't it


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Getting a lot of people chiming in and not reading the posts.

It's not AFB, it tested positive for EFB.

The conversation has now turned to treatments. It's a very early case but I'd still like to get on top of it.

So far we have:

Shaking the bees out into new equipment, much like AFB, but it seems extreme considering there are so few effected larvae (around 2-4 cells per brood frame).

Terramycin would be great- but now nearly impossible to get - especially just to treat one hive.

I do have some Tetracycline but I haven't been able to find any research on its effectiveness to EFB. Maybe if I had Oxytetracyline as there seems to be research on that...

Since the infection is so small, thus far, I may requeen next week. Maybe the next generation of bees will be able to handle it. I'm trying out the new Saskatraz queens...might be a good test for them.

Any other ideas on treating EFB?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A nectar flow often cures what ails a hive. If you aren't expecting a nectar flow any time soon, give this colony a half gallon jar of sugar syrup. Couldn't hurt.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

We have a pretty big flow on right now. I'll put their top feeder back on to see if they take that down. Some hives are ignoring their feeders where others take down 3 gallons a day!


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I suspected you had EFB just could not see into the cells.

See the links I posted in post 34 , lots of info on those threads.

>I do have some Tetracycline but I haven't been able to find any research on its effectiveness to EFB. Maybe if I had Oxytetracyline as there seems to be research on that...

It is the only legal antibiotic to fight EFB.
21% recurrence with OTC, 4% with OTC and shook swarm. 

New queen may help, but have not seem any cases where it has worked without OTC. And even then EFB may come back later. There are degrees of resistance find those hives in your apiary and use those queens. Buying a new queen is like a crap shoot.

Some areas it's a plague, some areas it's a spring time nuisance.

Mix OTC in water (same as syrup recipe) make a small amount at a time, wet it doesn't keep long. Mist the empty frames down into the cells, the pollen stores, bees on the frames, avoid directly spraying open brood even though I did not see any brood kill with a light mist. Give them OTC syrup and OTC sugar dust. Continue treating as per label. This is the fastest way to get your hives back on track.

Mixing instructions http://www.ohiostatebeekeepers.org/...-for-american-and-european-foulbrood-disease/

This from a friend; "Fought the EFB at that one location for two seasons, but nothing since. The OTC spray you recommended seemed most effective." 

The worst thing you can do if feed Essential Oils or any product with EOs. They will damage the bee's immunity make a very bad disease worse.

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...n_of_American_Foulbrood_disease_in_honey_bees

Keep an eye on your other hive "EFB loves company"


----------



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I haven't used antibiotics for at least the last 23+ yrs. For AFB just burn it, there is no cure only just mask it to deal with a bigger problem at another time. But for EFB as in your case I have always just pulled frames with any infection and steam processed the wax from them and turned the slum in my garden. For severe cases which have been less then 5 over 35 years of beekeeping we always shook the bees onto drawn comb put an excluder on the BB to keep them from absconding. Requeen the hive as soon as possible. Has always worked for me. Steam processing the wax has always been effective and can be reused w/o any issue I have ever noticed.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Flowerplanter:

Which antibiotic is the only approved? I thought Terramycin was the usual treatment and not any of the cyclines? And is OTC oxytetracycline?

As I only have Tetracycline and not Oxytetracycline I may have to do something else. Again, it's such a small case I don't have a huge worry, just don't want it to grow.

Also, I almost always use essential oils. Is this not a good thing? Mostly all that I've read states they are great for nosema or as a way to get the girls to down their feed faster. However, I have heard that they can inhibit natural growth of bacteria in the colony, such as in bea bread, and in the gut of the bees. I haven't been feeding, since the honey flow is so strong, but would like to research further before proceeding with EO additives.

Clayton - That's great advice. If I cannot control the bacteria I may just shake them out into a new box. I don't have a way of steaming but I could certainly melt the wax down and use that in candles, etc.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Terramycin and OTC (Oxytetracycline) are different names for the same thing.

http://www.rxlist.com/terramycin-drug.htm


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>but would like to research further before proceeding with EO additives.

Very Wise!

All the EO were found toxic and had a LD50;

"3.3. Oral acute toxicity test with essential blends on adult honey bees" 

"Neither pure essences nor blends of 
essences were effective to control AFB at the
doses and formulations tested in this study. On
the contrary, colonies treated with essences
showed higher levels of infection than those
receiving control treatments. This may be
related to a certain level of toxicity of the
essences to larvae and adults."

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00891800/document

R Oliver;

"a proprietary blend of other essential oils, in vegetable oil. The brood in the treated hives looked good on 28 Oct, after 30 days of continuous treatment with 2 pads on relatively small colonies, and mite levels had decreased (Table 3). But by a week later, 2 of the 7 hives had crashed, I suspect from all the essential oil vapors simply being too stressful"

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/a-test-of-late-summer-varroa-treatments/

More info on toxicity of EOs

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...and-Microbes-and-ECells&p=1397478#post1397478


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Terramycin and OTC (Oxytetracycline) are different names for the same thing.
> 
> http://www.rxlist.com/terramycin-drug.htm


Ah! That makes WAY more sense. Thank you for clarifying.

I'll definitely be holding off on EOs, they seem to be a HUGE part of "organic beekeeping". I really only ever added a few drops to encourage feeding but may be doing harm. When I get some time I'll read a few more studies. I'm sure in the concentrations I was feeding wouldn't be enough to be toxic...but I always like to be on the safe side.

AS AN UPDATE -

I was being proactive in doing what I could while looking for treatments that didn't involve OTC, as I only have TC.

I took out the infected frame and replaced it with drawn comb of a known, EFB free, hive. I then burned that frame in our fire pit. It seemed to be the only frame in the hive, as of this last weekend, that showed any symptoms.

I checked the hive today, as I got queens in, and did a full inspection which was definitely one of the slowest I've done. I looked in nearly every cell and could not find ONE sign of EFB! There are probably 8 frames of brood and all the larvae look shiny, white, and healthy.

Regardless, and always with sadness, I killed the queen in that hive and will be introducing a new Saskatraz Queen. Being advertised for their incredible hygienic nature I hope this hive never shows another symptom!

Seems like I caught it early enough that it didn't take much to fix the problem. I'll be inspecting that hive weekly for some time to make sure it's gone, but I'm feeling MUCH better about the hive at this point.

Thanks all for your help and support!


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>It seemed to be the only frame in the hive, as of this last weekend, that showed any symptoms.

You must have just caught it.

>I looked in nearly every cell and could not find ONE sign of EFB! 

Good deal.

>Seems like I caught it early enough that it didn't take much to fix the problem.

Sure does. *And good eye to catch it in the first place*, in one hive and on one frame.

Are you going to treat that hive? If you have the OTC on hand I might consider it. The bees are caring around the bacteria at low levels passing it back and forth. The bacteria has not contaminated comb or your other hives yet, a dose of OTC for that one hive could eliminate it from your apiary.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

I would treat if I could get OTC. I only have tetracycline, not oxytetracycline and am not sure the effectiveness of TC vs OTC toward EFB. OTC is more braud but TC may target it as well.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

What kind of tetracycline do you have? If it's labeled for bees it's the right stuff.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

It's for general animal use. Not specified for any given species. I definitely know it's not OCT but Tetracycline.

Wouldn't be illegal to use it but would it be irresponsible? Definitely wouldn't hurt I'd just need to figure out the ratio of how much powder to add to the sugar mix to spray it.


----------



## ilivetobealive (May 2, 2011)

Checked the hive again today and not a single sign of EFB!

Further, they accepted their new Saskatraz queen and eggs were EVERYWHERE! All the other larvae looked clean and healthy.


----------



## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

ilivetobealive said:


> Checked the hive again today and not a single sign of EFB!
> 
> Further, they accepted their new Saskatraz queen and eggs were EVERYWHERE! All the other larvae looked clean and healthy.


Yay for you!


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

That's good to hear.


----------

