# a guy known to be tf?



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

it looks like there is an email address and phone number for him when you click on the 'about' button on the page you linked above sibylle. perhaps he would reply to an email? (your english is good enough,  )


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Seems I have overlooked this, thanks, Squarepeg.
I just wrote an e-mail, hopefully he will answer.


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## c-bees (Jun 1, 2017)

SiWolKe said:


> but I found no hint if he is treatment free.


Hey, his phone number is on the website, so I called him and asked if he was treatment free, and he said he's always been treatment free........I asked him if he was speaking at a symposium or something and he said he's speaking in Austria in March I think.....judging from his accent he's either German or Austrian, so if you meet him there you can talk to him in your own language. He put his headset on so he could talk while driving, we chatted about bees for a bit, seems like a decent guy.......


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Interesting site. I would join their mailing list to see what they're up to.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I wrote and got an answer.
He does no allopathic treatments for 20 years.
I wrote back:


> >Do you speak german?
> Yes, I heard about the symposium. We follow Seeley. I read Tautz. Two of us have been treatment free since 2012. This is extremely difficult in Germany if you are not isolated. Losses 30%.
> We work in secret because we are obliged to treat. We want to publish articles that change that. We work with someone who tracks and observes wild honey bees (why they survive). This must happen discreetly, otherwise the bees will be taken and treated. The fear of disease spread is great. I myself observe 2 colonies in old walls. I have 12 hives myself and keep bees since 2014.
> 
> We refrain from any kind of treatment, including allopathic ones . We believe the bees have their own strategies and do not need any manipulation from us. The only thing we do and now learn from them is which constellations of husbandry are important and what kind of multiplying. We record this in a mindmap and want to convey it to the beekeeper community.<


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I hope the beekeeping community is ready for their
findings. Anything going against mainstream beekeeping will
have their saying. Not trying to start anything just my personal
opinion. I like their idea and thinking about beekeeping. Doing little
bee experiment to find out more fit right into my model of beekeeping It is the
only way to learn in secrecy. Sad  Thanks for the good infos.

So the term allopathic treatments include raising bees in logs, sun hives and allowing the bees to
develop resistant to the mites even though they might die from the infestation? It would be nice to know
what method they used when carrying out the allopathic treatments. That is a new term to me. Wonder if
it is in the bee glossary also.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Beepro,
he told me he is *not* doing allopathic treatments for 20 years ( you read my post before editing, i believe, sorry).

I asked about africanized bees but got no answer. I think he is very esoteric  no judging meant from me. i´m rather rational myself in my approach.

I like what they do but in my area I have no co-workers who are following that path. I must convince old style beekeepers :scratch:


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

If your task is to convince old-style beekeepers, then run (do not walk) away from the "new-age" gobble-de-**** of Michael Joshlin Thiele. It will convince anyone who values rational science, that you have completely taken leave of your senses. It is in the realm of total mysticism.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

JWChesnut said:


> If your task is to convince old-style beekeepers, then run (do not walk) away from the "new-age" gobble-de-**** of Michael Joshlin Thiele. It will convince anyone who values rational science, that you have completely taken leave of your senses. It is in the realm of total mysticism.


I just wrote something like that to my rational co-worker and admin. Well not as hard. I accept other opinions, we have such in our forum too.
Very entertaining but not reality. To reach others is a compromise often. There is wisdom in every opinion though.
Sometimes there are two roads to cooperation with others.
Stay tolerant and keep some thoughts to yourself.


Learned that on BS, by the way.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

SiWolKe said:


> Please don´t be prejudiced of the esoteric approach , i just want to have some informations.


i believe sibylle's point is not leaving any stones unturned in her quest for the how's any why's some colonies are able to survive off treatments.

i have personally discovered the merit in gleaning information from a whole host of others ranging from the 'mystical' to very large scale commercials.

in the end most of us end up formulating our approaches by synthesizing bits and pieces from others along with our personal experiences and come up with beekeeping that is pretty much unique to ourselves.

beesource has been very instrumental in my own pursuit and i am appreciative for the opportunity to get exposed to as many points of view as possible. the lovely thing is that each of us have the ability to embrace or throw out those views at our own discretion.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

exactly, thanks for putting it right, sp


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Maybe it is more of an issue of being capable of evaluating the information under those overturned stones, rather than any lack of 
available information.

An interesting thread recently touched on many of these same issues. Even a few mentions of 'rational'.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...actices-personal-convictions-of-the-beekeeper


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

clyderoad said:


> Maybe it is more of an issue of being capable to evaluate the information under those overturned stones...


absolutely clyde. no doubt most entry level beekeepers are caught off guard with the amount of information needed compared to what most folks would guess for 'just keeping bees'.

but even those most capable evaluating the information such as the ph.d.'s and others whose life's work is bees don't always come to the same conclusions.

seriously, this is what makes it both interesting and challenging to me.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

mmh
wasn´t there some people on BS who claimed what works is the right path?

Michael seems to be tf for 20 years so maybe we are all wrong and must be more esoteric?

Just that moment I received a very realistic mail from him.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

While I agree with JW, I feel everyone has something to teach me. Be that something new or to reinforce old lessons.
The tree hive seminar would be cool, we went from honey hunting, to enlarging nests in trees to increase there yeilds and setting up access for semi non destructive harvest, to keeping bees in man made hives.... each is a link in a chain, knowing our past helps us see forward.
But maby not $90 cool...


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> absolutely clyde. no doubt most entry level beekeepers are caught off guard with the amount of information needed compared to what most folks would guess for 'just keeping bees'.
> 
> but even those most capable evaluating the information such as the ph.d.'s and others whose life's work is bees don't always come to the same conclusions.
> 
> seriously, this is what makes it both interesting and challenging to me.


> caught off guard by proven useless information with much useful information somehow discarded just because.

>and that Is the beauty of a thorough and methodical approach with investigations of adequate duration and sample size. differing conclusions until some don't stand the test of time and repeated attempts to duplicate and are then discarded not to be relied upon as a building block for further understanding.

>and to me.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

This is indeed the dilema faced by new beekeepers. They get totally thrown by the plethora of often conflicting info thrown at them.

By the time they know enough to sort the wheat from the chaff, they know enough to successfully keep bees anyway.

Having observed the different newbee "types", it seems to me the ones most likely to succeed and still be around in 5 years, are the ones who keep an open mind and are prepared to change it, if they discover something isn't working, or if better info comes to hand.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

One year to go for me OT.

I believe I will still be there, even go on being tf after a total crash. I´m a stubborn person.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Having observed the different newbee "types", it seems to me the ones most likely to succeed and still be around in 5 years, are the ones who keep an open mind and are prepared to change it, if they discover something isn't working, or if better info comes to hand.


indeed ot. perhaps the suppliers should include an 'open mind' with their 'everything you need to get started' deals. 

how was your overwintering and have you started rearing queens yet this year?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SiWolKe said:


> One year to go for me OT.


 I believe you will still be with us. In your case I would have to add "stubborn", but in the best possible way .



squarepeg said:


> how was your overwintering and have you started rearing queens yet this year?


Yes queens being produced and nucs being sold .
Winter was an embarrassment I did lose some hives. I used that experimental OA/Glycerine shop towel method as a fall mite treatment, results were not the greatest. But having something of a stubborn streak bit like SiWolKe , I wanted to push it to the max and see what would happen, ended up losing some bees. But back on track now, it was worth the experiment how else can we learn.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Clyderoad


> An interesting thread recently touched on many of these same issues. Even a few mentions of 'rational'.


Hey, I resemble that remark.:shhhh:
Cheers
gww


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

JW Chestnut: "run (do not walk) away from the "new-age" gobble-de-**** of Michael Joshlin Thiele. It will convince anyone who values rational science, that you have completely taken leave of your senses. _*It is in the realm of total mysticism.*_"

After watching his videos, I suggested to my very treatment free bee club that they invite him. The next day I asked on our message board for someone to write a synopsis on what they had learned from him and what he had said. They could not. I only remembered that the recommended keeping beehives 1000 feet apart. 

https://www.youtube.com/user/Gaiabees


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## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

msl said:


> While I agree with JW, I feel everyone has something to teach me. ..


If you feel everyone has something to teach you then you don't agree with JW.


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## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

odfrank said:


> JW Chestnut: "run (do not walk) away from the "new-age" gobble-de-**** of Michael Joshlin Thiele. It will convince anyone who values rational science, that you have completely taken leave of your senses. _*It is in the realm of total mysticism.*_"
> 
> I only remembered that the recommended keeping beehives 1000 feet apart.
> 
> ...


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

you can learn for people even if you believe they are wrong.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

msl said:


> you can learn for people even if you believe they are wrong.


Yep. Everybody is good for something even if it is only to be used as a horrible example.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> i believe....
> in the end most of us end up formulating our approaches by synthesizing bits and pieces from others along with our personal experiences and come up with beekeeping that is pretty much unique to ourselves.





Oldtimer said:


> Having observed the different newbee "types", it seems to me the ones most likely to succeed and still be around in 5 years, are the ones who keep an open mind and are prepared to change it, if they discover something isn't working, or if better info comes to hand.



Stubborn it is for me to keep on learning with my little bee experiment. This is my 5th seasons and still have bees to keep trying the tf option 3 years in a row. Have confidence that in the long run more good bee genetics will show up that I don't have to remove the mites anymore. Still have much work to be done after trying the II station method this late in the season. Next season will be a fun one once queen rearing season starts. Watch out little bee experiment, here I come again. Tf at all option!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>That recommendation would be backed up by the work of the great mystic Tom Seeley.

I am sure I could make a lot of good recommendations also that have no merit to our daily applications. How many of us can keep all of our hives spaced 1000 feet apart? How many of us want to keep hives coated in cow manure?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

odfrank said:


> How many of us want to keep hives coated in cow manure?


Lets not throw out hundreds if not thousands of years of successful bee keeping because we don't want to get our hands dirty... 

modernism can be just as bad,as any other ism when taken to extreme


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Hi all,
I had some more exchange with the op because he wanted to know our laws and I sent a paper to him.
He asked some questions and I answered. The answers to that answers are getting very very short ( told him about the bond problem here).
I told him I`m not the esoteric kind ( ) and long to have more answers to my location problem ( no isolation, no ferals).
Still no answer to the bee genetics he has.
I believe this is the end of our contact. he said we will probably meet in Vienna.

Met a seasoned commercial beekeeper from switzerland yesterday. He told some interesting things about how the colony behaves while developing. Always in spherical order.
So the dung skep in his eyes was the hive which was the most natural. Some researches built hives like that to test, Jürgen Tautz, for example.

When discussing about resistance he said the bees natural nourishments are poisoned by all kinds of chemicals treatments, pesticides...he himself treats with all he can get on the market, even illegal medicaments, because he once had a time of 3 months in which he was prevented from bee husbandry and all died in that short time, over 100 hives, they mostly died of brood disease.

Brood disease like foul brood seems to be a bigger problem in switzerland than the mite, he blamed it on the weakening of the prolific queen by agricultural spraying methods and because of having no flow in summer.
So the queen is not able to keep up high bee numbers and is superseded often. They ( the commercial beekeepers) change the queens almost constantly, breeding queens all the time to have stability of their production hives besides treating with chemicals.

That even with having some original feral lines around. In switzerland the original black bee lines were not totally eliminated, the genetics still exist and ferals seem to be present too.
Maybe the claim sugar feeding is more healthy to the bees is not anecdotal?

He had been to a speaking where the speaker said honey should be disposed of as hazardous waste and if the consumer would know about that contamination they would never use it. He compared it with smoking, which accumulates poisons in the body and starts cancer after a time.:scratch:


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Wow! Honey s/b disposed of as hazardous waste? Makes one wonder (worry) who was writing that 'Speakers' pay check.  ...and... what they're eating at home?

Food contamination with chemicals and worse (some organic compounds are also lethal), are already part of our collective knowledge and is widely/mostly accepted (we could name any processed food product on the Market, no?), its that part of our culture which chooses to ignore what's best for all, in favor of what's individually desired for today...the examples are unfortunately plentiful, and are a cause behind many of our societal problems.

...somewhat related to this topic.....Prof. Delaplane's most recent (Dec.2017) article in the ABJ, quoting E. O. Wilson is spot on, and could serve to enlighten, and thus lessen both real and imagined societal divisiveness IMHO. 

Is it a beekeepers place to help make the world a better place, because we witness first hand, the rewards of cooperation when we work with our bees?

"All who wander are not lost"


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

This beekeepers place is to harvest honey and do not get much cooperation from my bees.
Johno


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Drummer boy
He might be presenting honey disposal as it pertains to bees and possible diseise, though I don't know his intent and this is just a possible leap in judgement from me.
Cheers
Cheers
gww


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

drummerboy said:


> Is it a beekeepers place to help make the world a better place, because we witness first hand, the rewards of cooperation when we work with our bees?


Yes, I believe this is a wonderful idea! The rewards of cooperation..something more and more lost in our society but hopefully coming back.

To my quoting the speaker:
He believes the harmful limits of the ingredients of chemical ****tails are set too high.

So the human being only notices the health consequences if he has already forgotten the cause.
Nice for the chemical industry.
Funny is my acquaintance uses as treatments all he can get, so he is a part of this. Maybe he has given up.

gww,
could be but sugar is contaminated too.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

SiW


> gww,
> could be but sugar is contaminated too.


Might be but it is thanksgiving over here and I am going to do my best to contaminate myself over the next few days with some of it. 

Happy days are here again.
t:

Cheers
gww


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

There is no place humans have gone that hasn't been contaminated, exploited or poisoned to the point which little else can thrive besides bacteria, and bottom feeders,,,,,if that...? 

After the value of a place has been made unlivable/unsustainable by developers, speculators patiently wait to sell to the remains to the highest bidders....who eventually come in time...with money to spend. 

Why is it that humans beings (the smart ones) are the only species required to pay rent simply for living? 

Who got the first Land Deed Title from God, proclaiming individual ownership of the Earth, and then having it divided into profit making parcels forever and ever? That's what I wanna know? 

I think its the ROOT! :shhhh:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting discussion here. let's try to not let it stray too far from beekeeping please.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

SiWolKe said:


> Met a seasoned commercial beekeeper from switzerland yesterday. He told some interesting things about how the colony behaves while developing. Always in spherical order.
> So the dung skep in his eyes was the hive which was the most natural. Some researches built hives like that to test, Jürgen Tautz, for example.
> 
> When discussing about resistance he said the bees natural nourishments are poisoned by all kinds of chemicals treatments, pesticides...he himself treats with all he can get on the market, even illegal medicaments, because he once had a time of 3 months in which he was prevented from bee husbandry and all died in that short time, over 100 hives, they mostly died of brood disease.
> ...


yodel ay hee hoo


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