# Would you B interested and How much would you pay for a 18/9 extractor kit??



## BEEADDICT

I've made an extractor using a food grade drum that is powered by a 1/2" drill. If you were to buy a mass produced extractor of the same variety you are talking in the $800-$1000 range. And that's for a hand crank extractor. I think I have the costs down to a point I could sell the guts of the extractor with assembly directions for a much more reasonable price than a commercial bought extractor. All you would have to do is find and buy a food grade barrel and assemble the extractor which takes less that 30 minutes, including drilling a 1.5" hole for the gate valve. 

Would anyone be interested and how much would you pay for something like this?


----------



## Acebird

BEEADDICT said:


> All you would have to do is find and buy a food grade barrel and assemble the extractor which takes less that 30 minutes, including drilling a 1.5" hole for the gate valve.
> 
> Would anyone be interested and how much would you pay for something like this?


I would say off the top of my head not very much. The problem is if someone can accomplish the "All you would have to do" then usually they can do the whole thing themselves. When you are not an OEM you don't have the support infra structure that people want in the future when something goes wrong. A lot of what you pay for with any equipment purchase is that infra structure. See if you can get $150-$200. You might have that much into the kit parts I don't know. I would have that much in the parts I made for mine if I had to buy them.


----------



## waynesgarden

I think I could be interested but of course I would have to know a whole lot more about what you are selling before I would know how much I would pay for it. Some basic info could help determine interest. How many frames? Radial or tangential extraction?

You are the one that has to assign a price to it. The marketplace determines if it is an acceptable price. 

Wayne


----------



## RayMarler

I think you would do better to try selling the complete unit ready to use out of the box. Anything less than that, if anyone wanted to, they could just build their own as you have done for yourself.


----------



## BEEADDICT

Wayne- your questions were answered in my original post and/or title. Its an 18/9 extractor. I guess I thought most would figure out that since its going in a food grade barrel that it must be a radial extractor, but I guess not. My thought process was/is why would you pay $1000 for something you could assemble yourself in 30 minutes for lets say $400?? Most don't have the knowledge, tools, or time to build something on there own. And some just have more money that brains....If I could make a few bucks to supplement my beekeeping addiction then great. I'm by know means trying to make a million buck selling extractors.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

_Beeaddict_, I applaud your entrepreneurial spirit, but may I suggest that you build an example of the extractor first (after all, you _ARE_ going to use it yourself, correct?), photograph the process, then post a more comprehensive summary of what you are considering offering, including photos.




And just a small comment about customer service, and dealing with _potential_ customers. Don't make _snide_ public comments about your perceptions of your potential customers' intellect. :no:


----------



## waynesgarden

Sorry, I lost sight of the title when clicking through from the ISpy listing to the actual thread. And no, I did not figure out that food grade barrel equals radial. I have a 2-frame tangential in what I would suppose is a small food grade barrel.

I must be one of those that you refer to that "just have more money that brains," [sic] though I still would not place a dollar value sight-unseen on something of unknown design and quality. 

Good luck with your business.

Wayne


----------



## rookie2531

I have to assume that you are trying to squeeze every profit dollar you can. Not that anything is wrong with that, but it is wrong to do it and act like your not. Add all your cost in parts and time and come up with a fair price, don't look at the price of what's on the market and try to get as close to that as possible. Remember, almost everything that the manufacturers are making is stainless and that is where the money is. That said, I do think the extractors are too much, for me that is. And being small time, I will make my own and if I see a make your own deal, that is 100 dollars more, than I will still, make my own.


----------



## squarepeg

my first thought was whether or not the half inch drill motor was capable of spinning 18 full medium frames without gear reduction. i suppose variable speed could be accomplished if the drill motor had an adjustable trigger lock.


----------



## Acebird

squarepeg said:


> my first thought was whether or not the half inch drill motor was capable of spinning 18 full medium frames without gear reduction.


It certainly has a reduction and it will spin it but not for long. Getting the load up to speed will eventually kill the drill and it absolutely needs an overrunning clutch or it will break your wrist or worse.


----------



## Acebird

rookie2531 said:


> don't look at the price of what's on the market and try to get as close to that as possible.


Costs only affect price when they are too high. Don't you try to get as much as you can for your honey if you were to sell it?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Getting the load up to speed will eventually kill the drill and it [HIGHLIGHT]absolutely needs an overrunning clutch or it will break your wrist[/HIGHLIGHT] or worse.


:scratch: :s


There is no reason that a drill-powered extractor has to put one's wrist at risk. 

For example ....







Photo Credit


----------



## Acebird

Think about what happens if you have 18 frames up to speed and someone kicks the cord out with no overrunning clutch. Could you do that for me?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Uhhh, Ace, the drill can be mounted to the extractor! :lpf: No wrists need be in the vicinity of the drill.

And this smiley seems most appropriate ...

:ws:


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

_Any _drill can be mounted to an extractor, with the _appropriate _mount. Since the thread originator mentioned using a drill to power the extractor, I thought I would include a photo showing one method of *attaching * the drill to the extractor ....








Photo Credit 

The metal bracket visible in the photo is clamped to the drill _housing_, thus supporting the drill, and of course, means no _wrists_ are needed to hold the drill. In the case above, the drill chuck has been removed, and a pulley added in place of the chuck.

More photos of the extractor assembly process - including more drill/motor detail photos - are available by clicking the "photo credit" link above.


Keep in mind that this thread is about selling an extractor "_kit_", so the effort/cost in devising a suitable method of mounting the drill can be spread across multiple "kits".


----------



## Daniel Y

First I would suggest a much greater understanding of marketing. and that you not insult your potential customers when small efforts fall short. That or turn it over to someone that can do it.

Some of my right off the top concerns woudl be. Does it work? I have seen a lot of D.I.Y. extractors and they simply do not cut the grade for me. and that is seeing them. Your brief description is simply not gettign much attention. A barrel and some parts and I can make my own? wow who would have thought of that? Do I also have to supply my own drill? Is it designed to be food safe or will I end up with shredded drill gears in my honey? These are just a few of the things I want to be able to answer for myself. and I can only do that by seeing it in action. What if I want to add a motor? Is the design flexible enough to do that? Show me the comparable manufactured model that would cost as much as $1000. It is a what is my money buying me thing.

I would in fact expect to pay $1,295.00 for an 18/9 motorized stainless steel extractor. I don't have to purchase a barrel and I don't have to worry about destroying any drills. I woudl expect to pay about $800 for a hand cranked one. A barrel I woudl expect to run about $70.00 minimum. Stainless steel I found for starting at $668.00. You are going to find it hard to beat the manufactured price at that point. The advantage is I can slice and dice the upgrades and pay for them a little at a time.

Offer to provide sources for the remaining parts. There is the DIY'er that will source every scrap themselves. And there is the DIY'er that is more of a kit DIY type. That is your market. Btu it looks to me like your parts have to come it at around $300 to even match the price on available units.

That still leaves the question. what is the quality of your parts and design? Should I give my money to you or Mann Lake?


----------



## Vance G

Answers to your query seem to prove your assumptions. The problem would be with people not getting the specific dimension barrel that you build your prototype on. I think people would pay $250 for a kit to build one if you included a $20 harbor freight drill so It was complete. You could even throw in the right sized hole saw and gate. Don't be in a hurry to be shamed out of entrepeneural designs. The socialist out there seem to think that everyone but them work for free.


----------



## shinbone

All the home-built extractors I have seen look really flimsy and would be a lot of extra work to use and keep in good repair from year to year. My time is valuable, so I doubt there is any actual savings when choosing home-made over a proven factory-made model.


----------



## Colino

BEEADDICT said:


> Wayne- your questions were answered in my original post and/or title. Its an 18/9 extractor. I guess I thought most would figure out that since its going in a food grade barrel that it must be a radial extractor, but I guess not. My thought process was/is why would you pay $1000 for something you could assemble yourself in 30 minutes for lets say $400?? Most don't have the knowledge, tools, or time to build something on there own. And some just have more money that brains....If I could make a few bucks to supplement my beekeeping addiction then great. I'm by know means trying to make a million buck selling extractors.


I would think that anyone needing an extractor that big would not need to build their own or couldn't be bothered.
Colino


----------



## divingmikeboats

Good one Vance


----------



## Acebird

shinbone said:


> My time is valuable, so I doubt there is any actual savings when choosing home-made over a proven factory-made model.


This may be the case for you but many back yard beekeepers do not need the integrity of a commercial grade extractor and their time isn't that valuable as a hobbyist.

I do not want to discourage BEEADICT from trying to support his hobby but I think he should think twice about powering an 18 frame extractor with a 1/2 hand drill. If you do sell one give Rader a good price.

Daniel, the last pinion gear will strip and remain in the case so no worries about contaminating the honey.


----------



## rookie2531

Acebird said:


> Costs only affect price when they are too high. Don't you try to get as much as you can for your honey if you were to sell it?


Yes, but that is something different. I wouldn't make my own car and say, buy mine for 30k because the big manufacturers are selling there's for 36k and you invested 1k into it. Even though you have to supply your own motor and put it in. And mention, mine wont last as long or weather as nice or have radio or traction control or a dozen other comforts.My honey and my neighbors honey would be the same, therefore, same in price.
I'm not saying don't get what you can, but don't expect to get close to manufacturer price just because you are cheaper. I guess another way of saying it is, expect your profit margins to be less because the quality will be. market prices and your prices should be in order with quality, don't you think?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> If you do sell one give Rader a good price.


Gee, thanks, Ace. 


However, in my opinion, a larger DC motor with variable speed circuitry are better suited for use with an extractor, particularly one the size of 18/9 or larger [OK, a VFD inverter driven AC motor would be the ultimate, if you can afford it].

I acquired a 21 frame extractor drum, reel, honey gate and some misc hardware from Brushy Mtn's _Bargain Barn_ for $125. :thumbsup: No motor, and no motor mounting bracket, so I had to devise my own. I salvaged a 1/2HP variable speed DC motor from a free treadmill and am pleased with how it works with the extractor.

Perhaps Ace could use an extractor kit, seeing as how he isn't very pleased with how his _ceiling-fan_ based extractor works.


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> seeing as how he isn't very pleased with how his _ceiling-fan_ based extractor works.


I like how you speak for people.

It is funny that anyone that has used it doesn't have your view of how it works and how simple it is. Can you disassemble yours in three minutes and take the barrel out to the back yard to hose it down? No back yard hobbyist needs a 21 frame extractor.


----------



## Acebird

rookie2531 said:


> market prices and your prices should be in order with quality, don't you think?


My point is I could build a better, higher quality extractor then what is out in the marketplace which may or may not cost me more than I could sell it for. Costs do not dictate selling prices. If three or four OEM's are already producing a product and you try to be the new kid on the block your selling price will likely be lower then theirs even if your quality is better.


----------



## rookie2531

Acebird said:


> My point is I could build a better, higher quality extractor then what is out in the marketplace which may or may not cost me more than I could sell it for. Costs do not dictate selling prices. If three or four OEM's are already producing a product and you try to be the new kid on the block your selling price will likely be lower then theirs even if your quality is better.


Good point, my name does say it all, doesn't it?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> I like how you speak for people.


Ace, I don't have immediate access to the post where you offered to _give away_ your ceiling-fan extractor .... but here is Mark relating your equivalent comment:


sqkcrk said:


> Acebird has one already built if you want it. He says he is going to crush and strain next year anyway.


Do you _really _want me to find your post? 






Acebird said:


> No back yard hobbyist needs a 21 frame extractor.


I did not set out to buy a 21 frame extractor. I was planning to build my own, in a smaller size. But I stopped in at Brushy Mtn while I was passing through Wilkesboro. And much to my surprise there were two extractors in the _Bargain Barn_. The 18 frame one was fairly complete, but somewhere around $1000. And there was also a 21 frame version for $125, and it was too good a deal to pass up. Note that it was a _stripped_, scratch-n-dent item. It clearly had been dropped/squished somewhere and required some effort to make it _round _again and usable. Would you really have been _happier_ if I had paid $125 for a *9 frame *stripped extractor hulk instead? :lpf:


As far as hosing down my extractor in the backyard/driveway, mine is on wheels, so it is quite simple to roll it out to the driveway. 

.

(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the original post/thread)


----------



## sqkcrk

BEEADDICT said:


> And some just have more money that brains....If I could make a few bucks to supplement my beekeeping addiction then great. I'm by know means trying to make a million buck selling extractors.


Apparently not. Not w/ that kind of attitude. How much do you KNOW about Business? What's your profit margin?


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Ace, I don't have immediate access to the post where you offered to _give away_ your ceiling-fan extractor .... but here is Mark relating your equivalent comment:
> 
> 
> Do you _really _want me to find your post?


Wear your fingers out looking, you never will find the post. I may have offered it to someone to use but I wouldn't give it away because I still need it. I suspect Mark was tryng to be funny.



> mine is on wheels, so it is quite simple to roll it out to the driveway.


From the kitchen or did you build a garage to house this machine that gets used 4 hours a year?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> My point is I could build a better, higher quality extractor then what is out in the marketplace which may or may not cost me more than I could sell it for.


Those who would like to know more about Ace's extractor may wish to review this thread: 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...875963&highlight=extractor+harvest#post875963
Links to photos are there also.


----------



## Daniel Y

You can attempt to set your price according to quality. The problem is everyone values quality differently. So you will only be at the right price with those that value the extractor the same as you.

You already know what the market will pay. You also know how those extractors are marketed. Which is part of why they cost what they do. You also know to some degree what the consumer tends to look for. stainless steel barrel. motorized is worth more than crank, ability to extract variable size frames, etc.

Now you can try to swim against that stream if you choose to and doing so will effect the price the market will pay for your extractor. For exampel what if you made 3 different designs each dedicated to radial extraction of a specific size frame. but it cost only $250 to make? You woudl in fact appeal to a certain portion of the market. You woudl also generate a lot of objections to such a design. You could make an exact duplicate of the Mann Lake Dadant or Maxant extractor and you would still only get a portion of the market and still generate objections. that is how it works.

Price should be set on manufacturing, time labor and shipping. simple as that. if your price does not fall under the market price you need to redo your design. reduce cost of parts. reduce time to make it etc. I think you will find the challenge not so much what price to set it at but getting it to come in at the right price.

IN a business you need to look at thing a little different. For exampel if you hired an employee you woudl have to require that the employee produces a profit. otherwise how do you justify the work and risk of having an employee? The same is true about everything you put into a business including your money, borrowed or saved either way. So lets say I have $130 so I decide to go buy a hive with it. I now put that money to work for myself and I must expect a profit from it. selling it for $130 is taking a loss. I had $130 to start with.

So what is an all around good profit I should expect? Experience has shown over and over that for a business to succeed it needs to have a times three return. So if I pay $130 for a hive I need to be able to sell it for $390 to have an adequate profit to run a business. Then add labor. Now buying and selling a hive is not going to have lot of labor involved so I will ignore that one. But how do they come up with times three?

1. you spent $130 of your money to get the hive in the first place. so times 1 is nothing more than gettign back what you already had. you are even.

2. is the money you will need to buy the next one. it will cost $130 if you are lucky and prices did not rise.

3. is profit for your business to expand. cover increases in costs. pay yourself something for all your work. pays for having found that customer that bought the first one. Pays the shipping cost on the first one and the second one. pays for all the costs in storing the hive until is sold and all those other little pesky hard to track costs. It also allows your business to grow. Next time maybe you will buy two types of hives. maybe a hive with an assortment of beekeeping tools. That sort of thing. And don't forget advertising or other promotional efforts.

If you also add to the selling price to include your time and labor skills etc you can remove it from the list above. but trust me the list above didn't include much for you anyway. Doing home repair I used to add to all that 10% of any cost just for tools. and it ran pretty much neck and neck with my need to replace tools. And that was on top of the times three sort of formula. So some cases require other factors be in included in the above the third multiplier should cover such issues.

Setting price is not so much about what people will pay it is about what it cost you to provide. And business becomes more of an issue of keeping prices down while not sacrificing quality or service. And your reputation will build out of your ability to do that.


----------

