# My successes and failures: Any suggestions?



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

There are several reasons for the problem why a colony get rid of there queen and you find queen cells this time of the year. 

Normally a queen should stay in a hive for at least 2 or 3 years without any trouble. She should made with 15 or more drones and can lay a good brood nest for a couple of years. 

The problems come up as soon as beekeepers use Chumaphos. This nasty stuff contaminates the whole hive and sits in wax for ever. 

Only Bayer has the receipt to get it out but won’t give us there secret, we have to send the wax in to get in clean, that what they told us a few years ago.

Drones raised in Chumaphos wax are more or less sterile. Queens raised in contaminated wax are not able to lay fertilized eggs over a longer time. This both problems together are often the reason why good queens suddenly stop laying and disappear.

When beekeepers buy a new queen do they have the guarantee to get a good queen? – No!
When raising your own queens do you have the guarantee there girls have enough healthy sperms for there life? – No! 
Remember, drones fly up to 40km and there is no control whether she made with your drones or also with drones from somebody else.

There a few ways out, use only starter strips and collect your own wax. Made your own foundations in a silicon mold and never buy wax foundations or plastic with sprayed wax on. This works for us backyard beekeepers but not for commercials. When buying foundations ask the supplier for a guarantee that he sells you non contaminated wax.

Make sure you have enough drones from your own colonies in your bee yard. Always keep a few nucs on the side, just in case you need a queen in late fall. It’s like insurance.









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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

This colony was a feral colony from a swarm. The bees were noticeably smaller so I presume they were a 'wild' colony. I don't treat my bees with anything, but rather use screened bottom boards and drone frames. The frames were plastic frames from MannLake, ltd and the bees drew out all the wax. Thanks for your input. 

Danny


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

After watching (and wiping the tears away) the program 'The Last Beekeeper', I can only salute those of you out there willing to take such a great risk venturing into commercial beekeeping.

I just plug away and fret about my single colony and hope that in some very small way I'm helping - It is a program that I highly recommend to anyone considering entering the bee business.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

My advice would be,...wow that is hard. You are in Texas and i am in Manitoba. If you still have enough brood rearing time, I would wait it out, and if no eggs in a couple of weeks, then combine with another hive. If there is a virgin running around in there, i wonder why she did not tear down the other cell. I think I would destroy the cell that is left myself. 
If i was combining this hive with another hive, I would shake the bees on the ground and make sure there are no laying workers or queen in the mix.
Your other option is to add a frame of eggs to this hive and wait for 5 days to see if they start rearing queens again. But then you are weakening a hive at the wrong time of year.
For me in Manitoba, my hives have a deadline by which they should be able to make our winter. If i ask myself "will this hive make it?" If i hemm and haw, I tear it down. But then that is just me...


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

honeyshack said:


> If you still have enough brood rearing time, I would wait it out, and if no eggs in a couple of weeks, then combine with another hive.


In a normal year we would as our first freeze is not usually until the middle to end of November, but we seem to be slightly ahead of schedule here. Often during November it will get up into the 80s on a regular basis, but not always.



honeyshack said:


> If there is a virgin running around in there, i wonder why she did not tear down the other cell. I think I would destroy the cell that is left myself.


I think when I first entered the destruction of the other cells had just begun. The sides of the cells had been ripped out and they looked very fresh. My experience is that it doesn't take long for the bees to finish the job and this is a very strong colony. There are about 3 deep frames of sealed worker brood on small cell frames, with a good solid pattern. I can't really imagine what happened to the queen. I will give them a week and see what things are looking like, I sure hate to reduce by anothe colony.



honeyshack said:


> If i was combining this hive with another hive, I would shake the bees on the ground and make sure there are no laying workers or queen in the mix.


At this point I show no evidence of laying workers, no eggs and I feel like they have lost the queen to recently for that event, my guess is that they have been lost within 10-12 days, being I still have sealed worker brood. I figure they would have started with 1-2 day old grubs, making 5 days after laying, thereby making emergence of the first queen (normally 16 days after egg laying) 10-12 days ago.



honeyshack said:


> Your other option is to add a frame of eggs to this hive and wait for 5 days to see if they start rearing queens again. But then you are weakening a hive at the wrong time of year.


I would hesitate to do this, since I don't give them enough time to raise another queen and start laying (from this point); although My guess is that the sealed brood is for winter populations. My guess is that there is 20,000 sealed worker brood or better in the colony. I was also wondering if they might have swarmed but the population is still very strong, but this could be from recently hatched brood also. Still puzzles me as to what has happened. I might still be able to find a queen somewhere who is ready to lay.

thanks for your input honeyshack, it has helped in my consideration. Anyone else please feel free to weight in.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

hoodswoods said:


> I can only salute those of you out there willing to take such a great risk venturing into commercial beekeeping. It is a program that I highly recommend to anyone considering entering the bee business.


This ain't my first Rodeo, and won't be the first time I get throwed :lpf:.I kept bees for about 10 years from late 70s through middle to late 80s, though not commercially. Also, we are fairly self-sufficient on raising our own food, and don't require much. Thanks for the encouragement.


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

That 'already self-sufficient' part is the best part - after willing to take a chance, that is. We would still be part of England if we never got up after being bucked.

There are a lot worse things to get involved in these days than beekeeping - like real estate and investments in financial institutions.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Well, there will always be failures. Your two situations are not atypical occurrences as you know. For some reason, at least here in New England, queens have been a problem this year. 

I wouldn't lose sleep over the laying worker hive. Sure, chemicals could have contributed to the laying worker problem regardless of whether or not you treat, but it happens and it's behind you. I combined a weak (non-laying worker but bad queen) hive just last week. Take your losses now.

As far as the colony with the queen cells, you have a few choices. Obviously, you could just let nature take her course...which is what I would do. But, if you decide not to, you could find a source for a queen and, while you're waiting, immediately start your search for the current queen, virgin or otherwise. If you find her, you can isolate her until you get a chance to introduce your store bought replacement. I would probably cage her for a bit longer than usual to increase the chances of acceptance since you don't want to lose her this late in the year. Better yet, grab a frame of capped brood from another colony and introduce her using a push in cage over the brood. 

Think of your timing. If you find a queen source today and order, it might be early next week before she gets here. Give her a week in a cage and a few days to start laying and you're close to the two weeks that you're concerned about already.

Finally, you could consider ordering the queen and looking for the current one. If you can't find her, you could always re-queen an "iffy" hive.

If you still have drones flying, my bet is that your current queen may not be a virgin any longer and you may see eggs sooner than you think. That's why I would be leaving things alone.

It would be great if you could keep us up to date on these colonies!


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

at this point in the season I don't have a lot of extras, but if you wish to make the drive I can provide you with a very nice late season queen (no chemicals added at no extra charge).

ps... if it were me??? I would likely continue on just as raveneye suggest and if things 'went south' I would combine with the weakest hive you have and come spring time use these extra resources to split. nothin' really lost except for a bit of time.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Ravenseye said:


> As far as the colony with the queen cells, you have a few choices. Obviously, you could just let nature take her course...which is what I would do.


This is my inclination, mainly because I don't want to lose the genetics of this 'feral/wild' colony which has been one of my strongest throughout the year. I have robbed sealed brood to build the rest of my splits, just hate to see them have problems this late in the year where my options are so limited.



Ravenseye said:


> If you still have drones flying, my bet is that your current queen may not be a virgin any longer and you may see eggs sooner than you think.


My bees haven't given the drones the boot yet. But the colony with laying workers which I just combined had a raised virgin queen (from a frame of introduced larva from this feral colony) but apparently she didn't make it through the mating process. 



Ravenseye said:


> It would be great if you could keep us up to date on these colonies!


I will do that, it is always nice to know which options one decides on and how it works.

I am thinking that I will do a quick check today to see if the last queen cell got ripped, which I would consider a good sign. Really don't want fighting virgins this late in the game; although many times it is the later emerging queens which make the better queens (from the last eggs to hatch). The first ones are often from older grubs which haven't always been continuously fed as queens during emergency queen rearing.

By the way thanks for your time, thoughts and input.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

tecumseh said:


> at this point in the season I don't have a lot of extras, but if you wish to make the drive I can provide you with a very nice late season queen (no chemicals added at no extra charge).


I would like to make the trip just to make your aquaintance in person, and thanks for your offer. I will take a raincheck for right now though as I will wait a couple of weeks and see if I can't get a laying queen from my virgin.



tecumseh said:


> ps... if it were me??? I would likely continue on just as raveneye suggest and if things 'went south' I would combine with the weakest hive you have and come spring time use these extra resources to split.


At this point, I think I will give the virgin a couple of weeks to start laying, if not, I will try to find a queen, and if not, then I will just combine reducing to 7 to winter on, a good Godly number . 

Our equinotical storms are waining, and clearer weather is hopefully coming our way which will be more conducive to getting this virgin bred than the last one, as we were getting lots of rain, during her prime mating window. Now, maybe if El Nino affects will hold off, and the cold fronts will remain normal I should be ok. Also, I haven't noticed the purple martins flying lately and they worried me concerning the last virgin.

Thanks for everyone's input and I will keep you all posted.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

My russian hive still has drones this what they have one deep and two mediums on.reduced the entrances on all my hives the other three are one itall.one feral and one OH."observation hive" all boot drones out except my russian.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Ok, just an update. I found about 6-8 more queen cells on the bottom of the bottom medium which I had not looked at previously. All on the bottom bar. All queen cells have now been ripped open, and I did find one that the bottom had been cut out of looking like when a queen hatches. Population is definitely much lower now than it was about a month ago when I checked them; but there are about 3 fairly solid deep frames of sealed brood emerging, and a couple other frames have a small amount of sealed and looks like merging brood. Since I am on small cell, my guess is that shortly I should have about 20,000+ bees emerging. 

In my earlier post I stated that this colony was a captured swarm and had been one of my strongest (save for my Bweaver queen). I didn't mention before but these were definitely my gentlest colony, and the bees have been fairly consistently dark as was the queen, which I had marked.

With the additional cells on the bottom bar I am guessing that I have now joined the ranks of many others with a late swarm. That is my current best guess. 

Since the queen/swarm was dark and gentle, I am guessing that they were of the carniolan race, which are gentler bees, but more prone to swarming. I certainly don't like the idea that I caught an early swarm (even for here), only to have them swarm again this late in the year. I am now hoping I can locate a source for 2 queens (I discovered another problem), and then will kill the virgin because of the swarming tendency. 

Also, a marked Zia queen which I had purchased the end of July, I discovered today is laying what I call shotgun brood. She had been laying solid patterns in the early part of September, but now is heavily spotted with drones. My failures are mounting. The other Zia queen is laying good solid patterns. I don't like checking bees that much this late in the year, but I guess, Come Monday I will be trying to locate the virgin queen, and checking my other colonies. 

Welcome any suggestions.
Danny


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

Danny writes:
I would like to make the trip just to make your aquaintance in person, and thanks for your offer. I will take a raincheck for right now though as I will wait a couple of weeks and see if I can't get a laying queen from my virgin.


tecumseh:
you are most certainly welcome here at any time Danny. the raincheck is fine... my best guess (with absolutely no ability to predict the weather in texas) is I should have queens here mating thru the first of novemeber and I have noted natural queen cells that mated right up thru the first of December.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

DRUR said:


> In my earlier post I stated that this colony was a captured swarm and had been one of my strongest (save for my Bweaver queen). I didn't mention before but these were definitely my gentlest colony, and the bees have been fairly consistently dark as was the queen, which I had marked. With the additional cells on the bottom bar I am guessing that I have now joined the ranks of many others with a late swarm. That is my current best guess.


Not so. I just found the old queen and a new supercedure queen both laying. The supercedure queen has a much larger and attentative court. She is yellowish brown in color. I actually watched her laying and there is now about two frames fairly solid of eggs, which I didn't have before. The old queen also has a small court, less attentative. She also, appears to be laying, just not nearly as diligently. I suppose for some reason she has faultered and will let the bees deal with her. 



DRUR said:


> Since the queen/swarm was dark and gentle, I am guessing that they were of the carniolan race, which are gentler bees, but more prone to swarming. I certainly don't like the idea that I caught an early swarm (even for here), only to have them swarm again this late in the year. and then will kill the virgin because of the swarming tendency.


Guess, instead that since they didn't swarm I won't be requeening her, as she is big and pretty.



DRUR said:


> Also, a marked Zia queen which I had purchased the end of July, I discovered today is laying what I call shotgun brood. She had been laying solid patterns in the early part of September, but now is heavily spotted with drones.


Her pattern is about 50-50% drone. I tried to locate her today but couldn't find her. I was lucky to locate a source for another queen this late in the year (Tecumseh). If I can't find the old marked queen tomorrow, I intend to shake them out on a tarp and try to locate her as the bees ball up on her. Or maybe do the above and put a queen excluder on the colony. Any other suggestions would be helpful.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

That happens more often than not. They may let the old queen stay through the winter even. Sounds like a great fall re-queening.


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## Dalantech (Oct 1, 2009)

DRUR said:


> ... The supercedure queen has a much larger and attentative court. She is yellowish brown in color. I actually watched her laying and there is now about two frames fairly solid of eggs, which I didn't have before. The old queen also has a small court, less attentative. She also, appears to be laying, just not nearly as diligently. I suppose for some reason she has faultered and will let the bees deal with her.
> 
> 
> Guess, instead that since they didn't swarm I won't be requeening her, as she is big and pretty.


Thanks for that update, and congrats!!!

Not a beek myself, just a macro photographer that has a keen interest in bees


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

I received a very vigorous nice looking queen from tecumseh today. Rain slacked up to a light drizzle and I was able to get the cage placed in my drone laying queen colony. Thanks tecumseh, I needed that, now to see if I can get her to introduced and started laying quickly. 

As previously noted, I have installed her in a colony that had a Zia queen I introduced around the end of July. The Zia didn't start really laying until around the first of September, because August was so hot and we were in a bad dearth period. I finally broke down about first of September and put them on sugar syrup, and the Zia queen started out laying a nice pattern, but by early October she was laying shotgun brood of about 50%-50% drones and workers. My other Zia queen is still laying beautiful pattern.

Hopefully, now I can go into the Winter with 8 colonies in good shape after starting this year with two purchased colonies. I will try to remember to get you another update in another month or so.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

DRUR said:


> *I received a very vigorous nice looking queen from tecumseh today*. Rain slacked up to a light drizzle and I was able to get the cage placed in my drone laying queen colony. Thanks *tecumseh*, I needed that, now to see if I can get her to introduced and started laying quickly.


I finally found the thread where I had purchased this queen from Tecumseh [Gene Ash]. I was trying to figure out how long I had her. End of October of 2009 and she was one of my best queens. She was marked in pink [only queen I ever had marked that color] and I ran across her last fall [2012] still laying a nice pattern. She was treatment free for 3 years, gentle, and one of my best honey producers; but unfortunately she is no longer with me. Thanks again Tecumseh for the best queen I have ever had.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


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