# To be treatment free, get treatment free bees to begin with



## StevenG

Greetings!

It has been a while since I've been on the forum. Have retired, moved, worked to reestablish my colonies, wife and I have both had surgeries, etc etc etc.
Anyway, I've noticed many new beekeepers seeking to join the TF crowd. In the interest of fostering success, I'll toss out some lessons learned in the last 9 years, and see if some other long timers have had similar results.

First, I've been TF since 2005. I did a blog here years ago describing my activities. After a year of research before reentering beekeeping, I decided to experiment. I tried Russians, VSH, MnHyg, Purvis queens, and B. Weaver bees and queens. My goal was to see which bees worked for me in my locale, requiring absolutely no treatments. My best luck here in Missouri has been B. Weaver and Purvis bees. I'm not sure if Purvis is back in business now, hope to find out this winter and get some more stock from them. For me, the Russians, VSH, and MnHyg were failures. 

Over the years I have seen much discussion on this forum about going treatment free. I humbly suggest that if you want to be treatment free, let your breeder take the losses to develop TF or Survivor bees. If you get bees from anywhere that have been treated, they will crash. You will save yourself a lot of grief and lost money if you'll simply start with TF bees. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. 

In a normal winter, my losses run 8-19%. This past winter I lost 30%, due to queen failure and starvation. My post mortems revealed why I lost my bees. Yet beekeepers in my county that treated lost 60%. FWIW. 

Now is the time to prepare your bees for winter, and think about ordering any bees and/or queens for next spring. Don't wait until January, do it before Thanksgiving. Plan ahead.

Kindest regards,
Steven


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## Andrew Dewey

Welcome back. B. Weaver didn't work for me.


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## StevenG

Sorry it didn't work for you. I think a key lesson I learned is to try several options, for one of them ought to work in a given locale. It could be B. Weaver works in the southern areas, and MnHyg or VSH works further north? 

For the sake of other folks searching, have you found a type of bee that works in your general area?
Regards,
Steven


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## Houstonbees

And yet, a 3lb package from B.Weaver has worked great so far here in Houston in my Warre hive. Second hive I started April this year was from a swarm caught at the airport. It will interesting to see how the two compare next year.
regards,
Gunther


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## squarepeg

hi steven, nice to see you posting!

the only experience i have is with some highly hybridized feral mutts that were collected from bee trees in 1996 and have been propagated off treatments ever since. my loss average is about the same as yours. i'm not sure how much this matters but i also don't feed syrup except to prevent starvation.

i know of five others who are keeping this same stock off treatments and all are having similar results. 

recent mitochondrial dna test results showed them to have the c1 maternal lineage which is the one most commonly found among commercial breeders and indicates they ultimately trace back to the mediterranean area of eastern europe. as far as i know there are not any other beeyards close by so i am assuming that my queens are mating with more ferals.

i'm sending a few queens to the usda bee lab in baton rouge next spring so they may study them and perhaps quantify what if any mite resistant behaviors they have.

productivity, temperment, and overwintering have all been pretty good so far. many of my colonies are just now heading into their third winter so we'll see if they hit the proverbial brick wall with mites or not. the guy that i bought these from still has two of the original five colonies that he collected in 1996 that are still going strong and they have not had to be requeened by him.


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## Andrew Dewey

StevenG said:


> For the sake of other folks searching, have you found a type of bee that works in your general area?


Nothing yet - in fact I've set aside my immediate efforts at identifying a TF stock that will thrive in my area and be productive. This is not to say that TF isn't still my long term goal. I limit what treatments I do to what I think necessary and low impact from residues, etc. I had a problem with Nosmea last spring (confirmed by BIP) which the bees thankfully took care of by themselves. I'm considering importing Buckfast queens from Canada next year. Unfortunately there are limits in terms of my wallet and the carrying capacity where I live so I can't experiment with as many TF stocks as I might like.

Last winter was especially brutal around here - I had one B. Weaver survive in a triple deep configuration and I'm looking to see what that hive does in terms of honey production (our big flow is on now.) I did move the hive about an hour and a half away from where I live which makes keeping an eye on it problematic. That hive has not and will not received any treatments.


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## Juhani Lunden

StevenG said:


> Over the years I have seen much discussion on this forum about going treatment free. I humbly suggest that if you want to be treatment free, let your breeder take the losses to develop TF or Survivor bees. If you get bees from anywhere that have been treated, they will crash. You will save yourself a lot of grief and lost money if you'll simply start with TF bees. You don't have to reinvent the wheel.


That is just the plain simple truth. 

Surprisingly many believe in miracles.


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## Oldtimer

Been wondering where you been Steven.

The thread has good simple information and should be sticky.

Years ago a lot of advice was the "stop treating" variety which wasn't helpful for some, and there has been a focus on small cells, but seems to me now that there is more awareness of getting the right bees.

Interesting about the DNA tests Squarepeg, would you describe your bees as looking and acting Italian?


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## squarepeg

Oldtimer said:


> Interesting about the DNA tests Squarepeg, would you describe your bees as looking and acting Italian?


i don't have any comparsion i can make from personal experience ot, but from what i have read and from the pictures i have seen they seem very different. there's not much yellow in these bees and they are fairly dark in color. they appear to have a low propensity for robbing as evidenced by me not observing my big colonies picking on nucs or weakened/dwindled hives, and this be be one of the things that has allowed them to be successful against the mites. lastly, they are very thrifty in terms controlling their numbers and not requiring a lot of stores to get them through winter. i believe them to be very highly hybridized and it may be that when they are studied in the lab we will learn what other genetic lines are represented beyond just the maternal line.


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## drlonzo

squarepeg - sounds more like what you would find with a carniolan hive. Does your bees take a brood break on their own?


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## squarepeg

drlonzo said:


> squarepeg - sounds more like what you would find with a carniolan hive. Does your bees take a brood break on their own?


they do indeed doc. a long one in the winter of course, but also a shorter one during our summer dearth. when i first saw it i mistook the brood break for queenlessness.


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## drlonzo

squarepeg said:


> they do indeed doc. a long one in the winter of course, but also a shorter one during our summer dearth. when i first saw it i mistook the brood break for queenlessness.


Yep, classic example of the New World Carniolans of today. The Russian strains also do the same thing and some are darker like yours, but it would boil down to their attitude as to which I'd guess at for sure. Russians during their brood break can be somewhat defensive, but Carni's don't seem to be that way.


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## squarepeg

drlonzo said:


> Russians during their brood break can be somewhat defensive, but Carni's don't seem to be that way.


i've only had just a couple of occasions when the bees got defensive enough to start roaring and cling to my veil and suit. most of the time i am without gloves but if i get a sting on the hands i'll put on some thin nitriles and can carry on no problem. this is another one of those things that i can't made a comparison based on experience. i wouldn't describe them as especially docile nor aggressive, they're medium i guess.

as far as how they act during the brood break i haven't noticed any difference than how they act at other times. usually at that time of the year i'm not getting into the brood nest, but rather harvesting supers from the top. i pull one frame of honey at a time and shake the bees off in front of the hive. they don't follow me and usually just fly back to the entrance.


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## StevenG

Andrew, may I make a suggestion? You have one B. Weaver colony that has survived.... my suggestion is that if it survives your winter, do everything possible to rear some queens and make some splits from that colony. You just might have the start of something good there. And B. Weaver bees should never need any treatments. Mine never have anyway, and that's what they advertised.

Squarepeg, best of all worlds! :applause: TF bees you didn't have to pay for! You are rearing queens from them? I had some deadouts stacked in my driveway this past spring and early summer. Neighborhood association wouldn't let me put 10 hives on my 3 acre plot - some neighbors complained about possible stings. So...nature has a way! A large swarm settled into one of the deadouts, and I was there to see it and take pix! woo hoo!!! Anyway, I now have two colonies in my back yard. Painted green, so neighbors aren't really aware of them. I plan to watch those, and make some walk away splits, and see how they do TF. Life is good!

Regards,
Steven


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## squarepeg

StevenG said:


> Squarepeg, best of all worlds! :applause: TF bees you didn't have to pay for! You are rearing queens from them?


i wish i could take credit for them steven. 

i purchased mine from the guy that collected them in 1996. i just started in 2010. i feel blessed to have them and to be living in an area where they can thrive.

yes, i'm rearing queens and selling nucs from them.

best of luck with your caught swarm!


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## Juhani Lunden

I envy you folks in US, you have a big variety of tf stock to choose from. Just pick up the phone. 

StevenG made a shopping list: Russians, VSH, MnHyg, Purvis queens, and B. Weaver bees and queens.

Who are the breeders you would mostly recommended to buy these various stocks? Weaver from Weavers of course, but what about the other ones?
Would you dare to put some phone numbers too? 

We can ad squarepegs nucs on the shopping list


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## StevenG

Juhani, there is B. Weaver and R. Weaver, and from what I understand they sell different types/stocks of bees. My only experience has been with B. Weaver. I think both are on the internet. Dan Purvis was selling queens prior to 2010, then quit. I think, but don't know, that he has returned to queen rearing/selling. There is a Russian group on the net, and I see some advertised in ABJ. I bought from a breeder in Louisiana, but I wouldn't buy from him again, and I don't like the Russians anyway. For me they did not produce. I also would not buy from the man I bought the MnHyg from, as he confessed, after money changed hands and I was getting ready to leave, that I'd need to do a fall treatment. LOLOL which defeats the whole purpose of being treatment free! 

If you can import bees from the US into Finland, being that you are so much further north than our southern bee breeders, your best luck might be to check with Andrew Dewey (above) and Michael Bush, as they might have knowledge of someone breeding TF bees up north. And if Purvis is back in the business I'd buy from him again, but his web site doesn't seem to be working.
Regards,
Steven


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## squarepeg

Juhani Lunden said:


> We can ad squarepegs nucs on the shopping list


i appreciate the thought juhani. this year both myself and the supplier from whom i originally bought mine from were sold out in advance.

we may try to produce more queens and nucs next spring if it looks like there will a demand for them. i would be interested in some of them going to the surrounding states and seeing if they perform the same as they are in our immediate area.


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## Juhani Lunden

StevenG said:


> If you can import bees from the US into Finland...


That is the trouble, we cannot, thanks to EU, import bees from US.

I just asked the contact information in case someone in this forum is missing them, good to have some information about the quality of queens from different breeders. I would not start blaming anyone, but if someone has got good queens, why not share it with all the readers.


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## rwurster

Who is a good breeder of vsh queens? I was going to buy a few in the spring for some splits.


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## Phoebee

rwurster said:


> Who is a good breeder of vsh queens? I was going to buy a few in the spring for some splits.


Glenn Apiaries posted this map, but is is rather old. They have a later map on their website that shows a lot more breeder queens, but doesn't identify the breeders.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=...822266&spn=25.473381,67.763672&z=4&dg=feature

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/vsh.html

I've got a VSH queen, 2 generations mixed with local bees, but the hive has low mite counts without treatment. I've also got a "hygenic Carniolan" queen whose hive has very low counts. Sure is nice to have people breeding for these traits ... I'd not have a chance on my own.


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## rwurster

Did you get your queens from Glenn Apiaries or from a different breeder? Looks like Glenn is the closest to me. I was wondering how tolerant the subsequent generations would be also. Thanks for the info and links


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## Phoebee

I think the VSH line ultimately came from a government research program. I have no idea if Glenn Apiaries had anything to do with the lineage of the queen I have ... evidently there are a number of breeders. The prime sources apparently use highly controlled "instrumental insemination", which sounds like even less fun for the drones than the usual method.


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## JWChesnut

Glenn retired in 2012. They sold off their stock to "Wildflower Meadows" of Vista, Ca. I have heard conflicting reports on the status of Wildflower Meadows program and operations. They have a website that says sold out for 2014 but will have bees in spring 2015. The website indicates the Glenn stock has been crossbred with VP Queen breeder queens.

Murray Mosco is reported as the owner of Wildflower Meadows (2012 Fallbrook, Ca news reporting).


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## rwurster

Ill do a bit more research. I looked at the map link and commented before I read through the website. I'm definitely going to get a few queens


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## Juhani Lunden

To begin, get god queens from a breeder that has already done varroa resistance breeding. Then a good way to save some money is to keep the daughters of these breeder queens in small nucleus hives. After first year evaluation best of the tested queens will get to big production colonies.


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## sfisher

StevenG I remember some of your work that you did a couple of years ago. I had a few conversations with you about BWeavers and decided to go that route, it was a good route to take. Could you post a link on a paper of yours that I remember reading, about treatment free bees.

Thanks Steve


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Here is a reputable VSH breeder queen supplier. http://www.harbobeeco.com/breeder-queens/


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## Juhani Lunden

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Here is a reputable VSH breeder queen supplier. http://www.harbobeeco.com/breeder-queens/


 One of the creators

It is amazing why their work, VSH bees, have not spread wider US, and into commercial use.
That is at least the feeling reading this forum. But maybe the users of VSH bees are not writing here, they are busy working.


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## StevenG

sfisher, life has overwhelmed me the last two weeks, I'll try to find what you're asking about and post it early next week. I assume you're referring to the blog that ran on this forum for a couple of years?
Regards,
Steven


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## Tyson Kaiser

StevenG said:


> If you get bees from anywhere that have been treated, they will crash. You will save yourself a lot of grief and lost money if you'll simply start with TF bees. You don't have to reinvent the wheel.


As an addendum to that quote I would add: Source from local feral hives whenever and wherever possible.


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## Tyson Kaiser

JWChesnut said:


> Glenn retired in 2012. They sold off their stock to "Wildflower Meadows" of Vista, Ca. I have heard conflicting reports on the status of Wildflower Meadows program and operations. They have a website that says sold out for 2014 but will have bees in spring 2015. The website indicates the Glenn stock has been crossbred with VP Queen breeder queens


I've visited another breeder that claims to be utilizing Glenn Apiaries stock, or perhaps their legacy more than anything. He treats "just in case", his stock is some extremely weak Cordovans that cannot survive without basic treatments. Not naming, but it seems that several people have tried to exploit the Glenn Apiaries VSH name with little regard for results. It's nothing more than a marketing term for some.


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## pgayle

I bought 2 Russians in 2009 and 2 Russian/VSH in 2010. I bought them from Velbert Williams: http://www.vlwbeequeens.com/home.htm
I'm not sure where he gets his breeder queens from. He is located in Heavener OK. I have had really good luck with these lines. They are still requeening themselves and giving me splits and daughter queens. I highly recommend them. The good news is that I haven't had to buy queens since. His service was real good back them. Assume it's still the same. He got back to me really fast by email today.


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## RiodeLobo

For northern breeders you may want to take a look at Olympic Wilderness Apiaries http://www.owa.cc/ or Old Sol Queens http://oldsolbees.com/old-sol-queens/. 
I have ordered from both and have been satisfied.


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## Juhani Lunden

RiodeLobo said:


> Olympic Wilderness Apiaries http://www.owa.cc/ .


"Four disheartening years of 90% losses, followed that decision."

Hasn´t been easy there either...

But: VERY convincing. Feedback and data from scientists, feedback from customers with names, magazine articles, fotos, etc. This is what I call believable. 

(Interesting similarities with my own system: shallow frames, styrofoam mating nucs, isolation mating yards, queens available not until from July, not selling any nucs or packages, etc. )


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## franktrujillo

I have been tf going on 8 winters now i started that wayIt was rough on the pocket book but now i have 9survivor hives .bee breeds that i have carni, new world carnis, russian x carni, and some mutts from cut outs i did i keep them at 6000' in the mountains of colorado.this year i added russians, itallians, and more carnis from a different supplier.i do let my bees swarm caught 7 of the 8 i split one. The one that got away just didnt want to stay in the box i put them in. Harvested 40 gal off the 9 Hives. Great bees


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## mahobee

2 of my 3 hives, sadly, are going into winter weak (1 had high mite counts) and I have little hope that they will survive. If I wait for overwintered Nucs in the Northeast, it will be end of May/June, and I will have another lost season. I'd love to get VSH queens, even willing to pay up for better chances of survival. How can I accomplish this and still start earlier in the spring?


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## odfrank

pgayle said:


> I bought 2 Russians in 2009 and 2 Russian/VSH in 2010. I bought them from Velbert Williams: http://www.vlwbeequeens.com/home.htm


I lost a one of those 2009 Velbert hives this fall. I think it was my longest survivor till it died. Left six boxes of honey. Luckily the robbers didn't get it.


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## beepro

How did the hive died? They have failed to requeen or the hive got too many mites to ruin it?
And how come you did not requeen with a proven new queen to keep it going?


To get an early start you must overwinter the late after the solstice mated queens. It is a quantity game
in your area with the cold extended winter. Also need to find the treatment free survivor or VSH bees to 
keep the mites and diseases in check. Finding the special bees right for your environment is the key to a successful beekeeping.


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## beepro

Tyson Kaiser said:


> I've visited another breeder that claims to be utilizing Glenn Apiaries stock, or perhaps their legacy more than anything. He treats "just in case", his stock is some extremely weak Cordovans that cannot survive without basic treatments. Not naming, but it seems that several people have tried to exploit the Glenn Apiaries VSH name with little regard for results. It's nothing more than a marketing term for some.


Ohh, my experience with this one--Cordovans. Once you have the F1 mated with the local VSH drones then
the Italians are completely different bees. Mine have very low mite count, extremely prolific and they make honey too.
Maybe it is time to mutt up the Cordovans for a bit if he doesn't mind the Italian mutts. I would like to have some of his
Cordovan daughters to mixed up with mine to make some super VSH Cordovan bees too. I got some waiting for this coming Spring to graft them.


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## EricConcE

Thanks Steven.The experience you had with different breeds definitely pointed me in the right direction.


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## Just Krispy

Lauri Miller has Glenn VSH breeder queens.


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## Brandy

I added some Select Old Sols and Harbo's this year and the early winter observations look darn good! Still have a long winter ahead though.. The advantages with Harbo being in the south, availability is earlier which is always a positive etc..


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## BeesFromPoland

I must admit I envy people in US the opportunity to buy varroa-resistant bees to start with from that many sources. In Poland it's almost impossible to find queens like that. There are some pre-selected strains but they don't show that trait in half or maybe even quarter the quality I read about in US webpages/forums. Some of them are also veeeeeery expensive... TF beekeeping is not even starting to get popular. 
In my opinion in Poland the best bee to start TF-beekeeping is "our" (north-european) forest bee - apis mellifera mellifera. But beekeepers don't like her because of poor crops, weak colonies, swarming and her "aggresiveness". However, from what I have read, I don't think there is anything better in Poland for coping with the varroa... there are some wild strains in some apiaries that are not treated, but some of them sting 100m from the hive ;-) The second choice is maybe also Elgon (Mr Osterlund's bee from Sveden) - but it's not that easy to get, since it's a bee from abroad (there are some UE regulations. You can get that bee but it's not that easy, and the veterinary "papers" cost a lot). The "mixtures" of that bee available in Poland are not that resistant as one would wish (but they may be the point to start)...

I tried TF beekeeping (mainly carniolan bee, not pre-selected, no foundation) and lost so far 22 out of 23 colonies this year (but the year was terrible in Poland - even treated apiaries fell in 50 - 100%)


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney

Tyson Kaiser said:


> As an addendum to that quote I would add: Source from local feral hives whenever and wherever possible.


StevenG, your title says it all:thumbsup:
However, many take this quest without obtaining them, or not knowing that the likely hood of their package surviving going cold turkey is slim , or "softly" treating them (whatever that entails):scratch:, in hopes of becoming treatment free. 
Tyson, this is how most of my treatment free stock began


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## Juhani Lunden

BeesFromPoland said:


> . The second choice is maybe also Elgon (Mr Osterlund's bee from Sveden) - but it's not that easy to get, since it's a bee from abroad (there are some UE regulations. You can get that bee but it's not that easy, and the veterinary "papers" cost a lot). The "mixtures" of that bee available in Poland are not that resistant as one would wish (but they may be the point to start)...


Can you give some names, treatment free bee breeders working with Elgon bees?


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## BeesFromPoland

Juhani Lunden said:


> Can you give some names, treatment free bee breeders working with Elgon bees?


I forgot about Your bees as the ones to start with. They are also available in Poland in similar way as Mr. Osterlund's bees. It's possible to buy them with UE regulations - just like Your's. The difference in availability is the price.

As far as I know there is no "pure Elgon bee" beeder in Poland. And I don't know any breeder that has Mr. Osterlund's Elgon in Poland, either. I know some breeders that have Elgon-bees from Mr J. Koller, and sell their bees as Elgon-queens. 
I know of one beekeeper that bought bees directly from Mr Osterlund this year - but he's no bee-breeder. Just a beekeeper - so I will not give his name in public (he treats that bee for varroa). 

And I can't give You any names of TF bee breeders in Poland, either, because I know of none that doesn't treat bees for varroa. Beekeepers that buy Elgons treat them for varroa. For me is like buying off-road car and use it in the city or race-track. Of course it's possible but it was made for different purpose. 

To tell the truth I heard of only one TF breeder (professional) but don't know his name, as far as I know he has his clients and doesn't want publicity. He works with AMM bee. Perhaps there are more, but I haven't heard of them. In Poland almost nobody believes TF is even possible. 
I heard of some people (most of them older-people) that don't treat for varroa, but they are no breeders. They have 5 - 10 hives, sometimes big loses... Some of beekeepers just write : "i know one <grandpa> that story goes that he doesn't treat..." 

That's the TF reality in Poland...


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## Eduardo Gomes

BeesFromPoland said:


> That's the TF reality in Poland...


I see the same in Portugal. I think I am not mistaken if I say that is like that in Spain, with one or two exceptions.
How are you planning to do to advance your TF option to a new level?


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## BeesFromPoland

Eduardo Gomes said:


> I see the same in Portugal. I think I am not mistaken if I say that is like that in Spain, with one or two exceptions.
> How are you planning to do to advance your TF option to a new level?


If You ask for my personal plans I'd continue with trying to find my local bee. I will use fondationless frames, I will introduce AMM bee, natural swarms, maybe Elgon and try to mix them, using some methods I found on mr bush's page (4 steps to healty bee, natural selection, biodiversity, ferals) on www.resistancebees.com (working with nucs multiplying hives as much as I see possible and reasonable, and try some sugarpowder methods), mr osterlunds page (maybe doing some treatment intervensions when collony would collapse before my eyes, changing that queens), and some ideas of Mr Charels Simon (using "old" equipment, no desinfection of hives, frames [wood, not wax!], allowing natural hive ecology to improve). 
That are my plans for a couple of years in advance - I see if that works. For now - since I am not proffessional beekeeper and have different job - I want to have about 25 - 40 hives. 

as far as You mean my country - we started to talk about that recently with couple of beekeepers and try to make some cooperation (exchanging queens, finding that "forgotten" swarms/collonies in forests or apiaries where beekeepers don't treat etc).

We will see. For now when I wrote some ideas on bee forums I was usually "seriously attacked" ;-) 99% of beekeepers look down at me. But I don't give up. ;-)


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## missybee

BeesFromPoland said:


> We will see. For now when I wrote some ideas on bee forums I was usually "seriously attacked" ;-) 99% of beekeepers look down at me. But I don't give up. ;-)


don't let the negative bring you down. I moderate a few pond forums, my pond is not done the "normal" way, totally trashed by many. BUT it runs beautifully, great water parameters, ease of care. So I don't care if they attack my methods. 

We are new in bee keeping, we are going to try some the methods read and learned on this forum, love the sharing everybody is doing here without trashing each others ideas. You never know what will work the best for you, for your area, until you try it out.


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## Eduardo Gomes

BeesFromPoland said:


> We will see. For now when I wrote some ideas on bee forums I was usually "seriously attacked" ;-) 99% of beekeepers look down at me. But I don't give up. ;-)


I understand to some extent what you say.

I think most do not intend to " attack". I would say that intend to put you in a mode of "prevention". "Parents" of resistant bees in Europe and USA were not naive, waiting for a rare combination of the stars they would achieve resistant lines from non-resistant lines .

In my opinion this is what the more experienced guys in forum intend to tell you. It's nothing personal, believe me. The more experienced (TF and T) are being consistent with this line of action. In my case I have learned a lot from everyone, regardless of which side of the fence they are. Do not leave your dream and gives it the best conditions for it to materialize.
All the best for your project!


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## BeesFromPoland

Eduardo Gomes said:


> In my opinion this is what the more experienced guys in forum intend to tell you. It's nothing personal, believe me. The more experienced (TF and T) are being consistent with this line of action. In my case I have learned a lot from everyone, regardless of which side of the fence they are. Do not leave your dream and gives it the best conditions for it to materialize.
> All the best for your project!


Thanks.

I know they do not "attack" me. And I know I can learn from them - and I try to when I see they give good arguments. But it usually looks like that:
I write in forums: "I know that's possible because in many places on the world people (and bees) ard doing it and succed. I'm looking for my way, my bee, best chance in my conditions etc. And my ideas are:..."
And they reply: "It's not possible in Poland - maybe in USA, because they have different bees, different climate etc".
I ask: "How are they different? in what ways?"
Answer: "They are. Don't kill your bees, you know nothing of beekeeping because You're a beginner"
etc, etc, etc

No advice, no CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, no new ideas, not anything that would help. 
They just say that I will kill my bees, because the varroa is powerful. As I would not know this. 
They say they have already tried and their bees died. But most of them used "random" bee, foundation 5.4, fed sugar, tried once, and gave up after they lost one or two collonies (they run with chemicals then) etc - no selection, no natural methods. But they KNOW FOR SURE it's NOT possible, Mrs Lusby is lousy beekeeper and Mr Bush doesn't know what he is writting because they know better...... To tell the truth it's so tiring... ;-) I read so strange arguments that I'm even ashamed to write them here...


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## Eduardo Gomes

If you do not know, in this paper there are excellent ideas, IMO, to keep up your way. Is available on the net.
Introductionary study for breeding Varroa resistant bees
Final report, 2004
by Tore Forsman, Per Ideström and Erik Österlund, of SWEDISH BEEKEEPING ASSOCIATION


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## pmshoney

Great topic here folks. I have some hives or bees I must treat to keep alive and cant afford to lose 50% in the winter. We also have hives we raise queens from that are treatment free unless something pops up and we are at risk of loosing a hive at that point those bees are not used for queens to sell. How ever I do not sell queens to folks and tell them not to treat them. If they lose there bees to mites or treatments its because that's what they chose to do not because I told them how to kill there bees. On the same hand I have a few that have good luck with no treatments with my queens. Would I ever say my queens are to be treatment free bees ? NO I would not!

I feel there is good stuff here > http://scientificbeekeeping.com/choosing-your-troops-breeding-mite-fighting-bees/

Randy Oliver has a lot of non-bias stuff on his web pages


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## sqkcrk

Seems like you are promoting treatment on a TF Thread pmshoney. If a hive of yours is treatment free unless it needs treating, then they aren't treatment free. You can't be a little bit pregnant.

If your goal is to be treatment free then loosing 50% in the winter is what you have to do. How else are you going to find the survivors?

Randy Oliver is not a TF beekeeper. Did you read his most recent article in ABJ?


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## Juhani Lunden

BeesFromPoland said:


> If and some ideas of Mr Charels Simon (using "old" equipment, no desinfection of hives, frames [wood, not wax!]


Who is Charles Simon?


----------



## Barry

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/charles-martin-simon/

He has since passed away.


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## Juhani Lunden

BeesFromPoland said:


> I forgot about Your bees as the ones to start with. They are also available in Poland in similar way as Mr. Osterlund's bees. It's possible to buy them with UE regulations - just like Your's. The difference in availability is the price.


 Finnish lamb is famous for its breeding qualities, especially fecundity, every mother lamb nurse in average 2,5 lambkin. With other races it is 1-2/ mother. That is why they are exported to 40 countries.

https://portal.mtt.fi/portal/page/p...enivarat/sailytysohjelmat/lammas/suomenlammas
http://www.lammasyhdistys.fi/?id=3EA7D56A-2B174F9C8D15-6B28E880A83F

There was a story of a new breeding station for lambs starting in Finland. One embryo from this breeding station costs 500€. Same as my queens. Is it much? No, because they sell with that price. People buying them know that they get something unique. Something they would not get elsewhere. A hobbyist would never buy that price, why would he! He has not got enough hives, no queens rearing skills not to speak income from selling queens. He has no skills of controlled mating to maintain a line of bees.

http://www.maaseuduntulevaisuus.fi/...ma-jalostaa-hollannin-huipputexeleitä-1.75412


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## Michael Bush

>Randy Oliver has a lot of non-bias stuff on his web pages

I enjoy reading Randy's very informative website, but for you to call someone who calls treatment free beekeepers the "Taliban", "non-bias" is stretching it a bit...


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## bnm1000

It amazes me how many people claim that you have to use treatments. Obviously, honey bees have and are surviving mites by using natural methods. Otherwise, how have the "africanized" bees spread so effectively over the last 20 years? It seems to me that they do this by their propensity to swarm thereby effectively breaking the brood cycle and reproducing faster than the mites can take them down. Nature has a way of striking a balance, a parasite that is too effective at killing its host dooms itself. 

I have a hard time thinking that we have manipulated the honey bee genetics so much that they are the equivalent of livestock, or dogs, incapable of surviving in the wild without mankind's assistance and the use of chemical treatments.

I will agree that it might be impossible to make a living as a beekeeper without treating, because it seems that being a migratory beekeeper and expecting an abundance of honey every year may only be obtainable by using treatments. I would never criticize anyone whose living is derived from beekeeping from using treatments because they can't afford to take the chance.

But, if you are willing to accept less honey, a higher loss of hives, and do more splits, it seems to me that it might be possible to be treatment free. It seems that both the treatment free and the treated bees both suffer high losses at times. I am just surprised at how many people get offended (on both sides) at whether or not someone treats or doesn't treat. I think it depends on your purpose for having bees.

I also don't think it is "cruel" not to treat your bees, but to use splits to keep up your hive numbers. It seems to me that we are manipulating an insect to provide us with a product (pollination or honey). It strikes me as ironic to claim someone is cruel to their bees then dump insecticide on the ground to kill the fire ants that are bothering the hive, or exterminating the yellow jacket nests that we consider to be a a nuisance. 

I love reading Randy Oliver, Michael Palmer, Michael Bush, Mel Disselkoen, Rusty at Honeybeesuite etc. etc. I recognize I am a beekeeping idiot compared to 90% of the people on Beesource but enjoy learning. Heck, I even keep ants and am on several international ant forum websites, though I won't even get into how complicated that is with the thousands of different species! What was it that Rodney King said during the LA Riots "Can we all just get along!"


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## sqkcrk

And Rodney Dangerfield said, "Take my wife. Please." lol

Good Post bnm.


----------



## crofter

Michael Bush said:


> >Randy Oliver has a lot of non-bias stuff on his web pages
> 
> I enjoy reading Randy's very informative website, but for you to call someone who calls treatment free beekeepers the "Taliban", "non-bias" is stretching it a bit...


I think that drawing attention to that remark "taliban", made a number of years ago _is stretching it a bit_ to cast a glimmer of doubt on Randy Oliver's _general_ objectivity. In my mind that speaks of underlying agenda. JMHO. 

I dont think there is much doubt that rather extreme fundamentalist ideology has been expressed on both sides of the debate. Dont let the extremists interfere with finding the best way forward.


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## pmshoney

sqkcrk said:


> Seems like you are promoting treatment on a TF Thread pmshoney.
> 
> 
> 
> sqkcrk, I could not agree more with you about me sounding like I'm promoting treatment that is not what I intended. I would like to be treatment free someday but I have bees too many hives to just stop treating them all at once I would loose thousands the 1st winter. lol I feel I'm digging my hole deeper here. ok if I had only 25 hives I would not treat them if they 80% died in the winter id buy new and raise queens from the 20% that made it and requeen all my new package bees try winter again and repeat tell I had 100% survive winter. for now I keep 4 yards that are treatment free and watched closely if they are in trouble they are pulled from there and put in a production yard and treated to fix them never will they then return to the treatment free yard. In the treatment free yards we make splits to make new hives and we only keep a set number of hives there so overages get moved to production yards as well where they get a green tag "no treatment" and most new replacement production hive queens are made at our no treatment yards. other replacement queens come from other queen producers to help bring in good traits. So in time we should get away from treatments and hopefully not loose our other good traits. and as for Randy Oliver he don't have to be TF to have good stuff on his pages that TF bee keepers can read and get good stuff from. If randy or myself and many others lost 50% of our bees in a winter die out we would be out of business and many crops would go untouched by bees. will we get to TF someday gosh we hope to will it be tomorrow NO! Are we interested in it yes! Are we envious of TF keepers Yes we are and thankfully there are 100% TF keepers. If I were just starting out would I be 100% TF yes that is the path I would take. and thumbs up to those that are going TF cold turkey!


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## pmshoney

Michael Bush said:


> >Randy Oliver has a lot of non-bias stuff on his web pages
> 
> but for you to call someone who calls treatment free beekeepers the "Taliban", "non-bias" is stretching it a bit...



Michael, 
You right that was a bit of a stretch. I posted that and this morning my phone blew up with txts saying the same thing basically as you lol. guess I know people read this even that don't ever post anything. but I still think there is a lot to be learned from both sides of the fence and I would love to be 100% TF tomorrow but I have way too much to loose to take that jump all in one yr. or even 3 yrs. 3 goals for me get a webpage back up and 100% TF bees and add 1000 hives of bees can you tell me what one will happen 1st ? I can tell you what one wont happen this yr. lol


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## JRG13

Just don't forget about how location effects everything as well. The reality of the current state of beekeeping, is commercial TF will never be a viable business model to most, because the year you have huge losses, which is always a possibility, you lose your business or it takes years to recover from it. A lot of people talk big, but aren't making their money off bees to support their families etc... I would really like to see how many people would invest in building a sizeable operation pulling 7 figures or more treatment free, and how to keep that many colonies with the right genetics around year after year. On top of that, think about the migratory implications of picking up different regional biotypes of varroa and DWV etc...


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## Michael Bush

> TF will never be a viable business model to most, because the year you have huge losses

Well, the only TF commercial people I know of are NOT having huge losses, so I don't know where this concept comes from...


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## Eduardo Gomes

pmshoney said:


> In the treatment free yards we make splits to make new hives and we only keep a set number of hives there so overages get moved to production yards as well where they get a green tag "no treatment" and most new replacement production hive queens are made at our no treatment yards. other replacement queens come from other queen producers to help bring in good traits. So in time we should get away from treatments and hopefully not loose our other good traits.


Very interesting pmshoney. My plan is very close to what you are already doing. After moving your colonies from TF yards to T yards how do you do your mites control? Makes counts of mites in all hives ? You treat by calendar your no TF hives? What ares yours mites thresholds for TF? How will you do to control impacts from the natural supersedure of your TF in your T yard? Sorry for all these questions, but are some of those that I do not have a clear answer for myself.


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## Oldtimer

Randy's beekeeping Taliban comment was about people with extremist views who want to force them on others, he did not specify treatment free beekeepers. I took it to mean keep an open mind, or take advise from people with open minds, or don't be boxed in by people with closed minds.


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## sqkcrk

pmshoney said:


> sqkcrk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like you are promoting treatment on a TF Thread pmshoney.
> 
> 
> 
> sqkcrk, I could not agree more with you about me sounding like I'm promoting treatment that is not what I intended. I would like to be treatment free someday but I have bees too many hives to just stop treating them all at once I would loose thousands the 1st winter. lol I feel I'm digging my hole deeper here. ok if I had only 25 hives I would not treat them if they 80% died in the winter id buy new and raise queens from the 20% that made it and requeen all my new package bees try winter again and repeat tell I had 100% survive winter. for now I keep 4 yards that are treatment free and watched closely if they are in trouble they are pulled from there and put in a production yard and treated to fix them never will they then return to the treatment free yard. In the treatment free yards we make splits to make new hives and we only keep a set number of hives there so overages get moved to production yards as well where they get a green tag "no treatment" and most new replacement production hive queens are made at our no treatment yards. other replacement queens come from other queen producers to help bring in good traits. So in time we should get away from treatments and hopefully not loose our other good traits. and as for Randy Oliver he don't have to be TF to have good stuff on his pages that TF bee keepers can read and get good stuff from. If randy or myself and many others lost 50% of our bees in a winter die out we would be out of business and many crops would go untouched by bees. will we get to TF someday gosh we hope to will it be tomorrow NO! Are we interested in it yes! Are we envious of TF keepers Yes we are and thankfully there are 100% TF keepers. If I were just starting out would I be 100% TF yes that is the path I would take. and thumbs up to those that are going TF cold turkey!
> 
> 
> 
> How many do you have? Is beekeeping what you do for a living?
Click to expand...


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## beemandan

Oldtimer said:


> I took it to mean keep an open mind, or take advise from people with open minds, or don't be boxed in by people with closed minds.


I think those with a martyrdom complex often believe that every insult is directed at themselves.
I saw it the same way you did OT.


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## sqkcrk

Some people put what they do and how they do it out for others to see and get ridiculed. Then when they keep doing what they have been doing and telling others they get painted as zealots. By no means is it one sided.


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## Michael Bush

Comparing someone you perceive as "closed-minded" to the Taliban is like comparing someone who is a little bit bossy to Hitler. The Taliban are murderers and terrorists, not someone who is just "closed-minded".


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## Oldtimer

Michael Bush said:


> like comparing someone who is a little bit bossy to Hitler.


I saw someone referred to as a "spelling Nazi". Those kind of superlatives do get used.


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## Michael Bush

>Those kind of superlatives do get used.

And they are not appropriate.


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## SRatcliff

Michael Bush said:


> >Those kind of superlatives do get used.
> 
> And they are not appropriate.


I tend to think it's not what you say, it's how you say it. Something that gets lost in text. None of us can speak for Randy, but I don't think he meant they are literally as bad as the Taliban.


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## crofter

I didnt think so either but it was not my ox being gored! I think his research stands up well to fact checking.


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## BeesFromPoland

Juhani Lunden said:


> There was a story of a new breeding station for lambs starting in Finland. One embryo from this breeding station costs 500€. Same as my queens. Is it much? No, because they sell with that price. People buying them know that they get something unique. Something they would not get elsewhere. A hobbyist would never buy that price, why would he! He has not got enough hives, no queens rearing skills not to speak income from selling queens. He has no skills of controlled mating to maintain a line of bees.
> 
> http://www.maaseuduntulevaisuus.fi/...ma-jalostaa-hollannin-huipputexeleitä-1.75412


Mr Lunden. 
I'm not saying Your bees are not worth their price. As You said: they are since people are buying them for it. 

I must say that You made great effort, and great work. As for me I probably will not buy Your queens because I believe I have better chance for the same amount of money with different bees (like elgons, ferals, AMM, "forgotten TF bees"), or granddaughters of Your queens (but they have much less of Your queens genetics). Probably, probably not. As great bee philosopher Winnie the Pooh said: You never know with bees... I will gladly buy that genetics from polish breeder that acquired Your bee/s.
One can not even give guarantee that the bee will not be killed in transport, or by worker bees, or they will winter (of any reason), or they will not be robbed, or some pest will kill them that is in Poland but Your bees did not encounter it and are not resistant etc etc etc. So You just have to balance it - no matter You are professional or hobbyist. 

Most of all and that is most important for me personally - Your work inspired many people that did not believe that it is possible in Europe - with European strains of bee, and european strains of varroa. And that is MAGNIFICENT WORK. We give You as an example in Poland all the time.


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## Juhani Lunden

BeesFromPoland said:


> I will gladly buy that genetics from polish breeder that acquired Your bee/s.


Exactly, that´s the way to do it. Network is everything. Task is huge: to get all beekeeping in Europe treatment free. One person is nothing, together we can do anything if the goal is clear.


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## BeesFromPoland

Juhani Lunden said:


> Exactly, that´s the way to do it. Network is everything. Task is huge: to get all beekeeping in Europe treatment free. One person is nothing, together we can do anything if the goal is clear.


unfortunately in Poland most people that buy bees like Yours treat it for varroa, because they are afraid of loses. and that means in 2, maybe 3 generations that bee is no longer resistant (at least as far as genetics is concerned) since there is no selective pressure. 
There have to be TF apiaries and TF breeders to sustain resistant trait. In Poland there are not.

Do You believe with Your bee the key is genetics or environment? I ask because as far as I know You inseminate bees artificially, You have 5.3 foundation. You don't write (at least in English - I don't speak Finnish) about natural hive ecosystems, wintering on honey, natural cell size etc.
From what I understood report on Your page You rather have "perfectly selected resistant traits" than "bee perfectly balanced in ecosystem". Would You write about Your observations on that?


----------



## Juhani Lunden

BeesFromPoland said:


> Do You believe with Your bee the key is genetics or environment?
> 
> From what I understood report on Your page You rather have "perfectly selected resistant traits" than "bee perfectly balanced in ecosystem".


Genetics mostly, environment has a role, but selling them into other countries and getting good reports from other breeders has convinced me that probably the role of environment is not as important as many beekeepers (like to) believe. 

I have no idea how to balance an ecosystem, but I do know how to stop treatments. As John Kefuss says, beekeeper is the biggest obstacle. Advance in breeding takes place only if good selected virgin queens are mated with equally good selected drones. I try to make everything as cheaply as possible and with lowest possible amount of work. Giving space, making nucs, taking honey of, feeding to winter. That's it. Bees are better of when we leave them alone.


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## BeesFromPoland

Juhani Lunden said:


> Genetics mostly, environment has a role, but selling them into other countries and getting good reports from other breeders has convinced me that probably the role of environment is not as important as many beekeepers (like to) believe.


So how would You explain the role of genetic diversity that eg Mr Michael Bush or Mr Sam Comfort (and many other US organic beekeepers) write about? Feral bees, swarms that survive? 
If the genetics is the main point in all of this then almost all beekeepers that stopped treatments probably would have problems of inbreeding and their bee population would be weaker and weaker every year. Yet from what He writes Mr Bush brings some "unknown" (ferals, swarms - who knows what kind of bees they are?) genetics to his apiary and they tend mostly to survive. Are they all "selected"? of course some would be "naturaly selected" but if varroa kills maybe 90 - 95 % of "random, treated bees" how do these survive?
That's curious problem for me to tell the truth.


----------



## mike bispham

BeesFromPoland said:


> So how would You explain the role of genetic diversity that eg Mr Michael Bush or Mr Sam Comfort (and many other US organic beekeepers) write about? Feral bees, swarms that survive?
> If the genetics is the main point in all of this then almost all beekeepers that stopped treatments probably would have problems of inbreeding and their bee population would be weaker and weaker every year. Yet from what He writes Mr Bush brings some "unknown" (ferals, swarms - who knows what kind of bees they are?) genetics to his apiary and they tend mostly to survive. Are they all "selected"? of course some would be "naturaly selected" but if varroa kills maybe 90 - 95 % of "random, treated bees" how do these survive?
> That's curious problem for me to tell the truth.


There's no puzzle. You just need a better understanding of natural selection for the fittest strains, and the way selective husbandry mimics the natural process, in order to understand what is happening. The more vulnerable individuals are killed off in each generation, the less vulnerable surviving and passing on their strengths to the new generation. (Through the mechanism of inherited traits.)

The population progressively becomes adapted to the problem until it isn't a problem anymore.

Simple and very very elegant.

There's no need to muddle this process with talk about inbreeding - its simply irrelevant. 

Mike (UK)


----------



## Juhani Lunden

BeesFromPoland said:


> So how would You explain the role of genetic diversity that eg Mr Michael Bush or Mr Sam Comfort (and many other US organic beekeepers) write about? Feral bees, swarms that survive?
> .


Ask them, I know nothing about their circumstances.

Diversity is very important, virus resistance too. 



BeesFromPoland said:


> If the genetics is the main point in all of this then almost all beekeepers that stopped treatments probably would have problems of inbreeding and their bee population would be weaker and weaker every year.


I don´t get you, how come inbreeding would be a problem when swarms/ferals are used? On the contrary.

Nature is the best breeder, if goal is surviving.


----------



## Michael Bush

> Yet from what He writes Mr Bush brings some "unknown" (ferals, swarms - who knows what kind of bees they are?) genetics to his apiary and they tend mostly to survive. Are they all "selected"?

I raise my own queens, and of course I pick colonies that are productive, gentle and healthy to use for queen mothers. This applies a bit if selection, yes.

> of course some would be "naturaly selected" but if varroa kills maybe 90 - 95 % of "random, treated bees" how do these survive?

I've never had anywhere close to 90% losses except back when I had them on large cell and I was treating them... wich was 100% losses... A really bad winter (like -27 F or -33 C for two weeks or more) I might lose a little over 50%. In a mild winter (like not more than -10 F and only for a few nights) I might lose 20%. In a good winter (like not more than -1 or 2 F and only for a few days) I might lose 10%.


----------



## BeesFromPoland

mike bispham said:


> There's no puzzle. You just need a better understanding of natural selection for the fittest strains, and the way selective husbandry mimics the natural process, in order to understand what is happening. The more vulnerable individuals are killed off in each generation, the less vulnerable surviving and passing on their strengths to the new generation. (Through the mechanism of inherited traits.)
> 
> The population progressively becomes adapted to the problem until it isn't a problem anymore.
> 
> Simple and very very elegant.
> 
> There's no need to muddle this process with talk about inbreeding - its simply irrelevant.
> 
> Mike (UK)


That's not what I meant. What You just wrote is obvious for me. That's simple natural selection and I have no problem in understanding that. What I ment is when there are "trated hives" next to your apiary and you'll catch the swarm what would be the reason for them to survive if only genetics is the key?
Of course You can assume that swarms that survive come only from resistant bees. But how many resistant apiaries would eg. Mr Bush have next to his? He writes that he catch swarms and they survive and make his apiary more and more genetically diverse... 

I don't mix that with inbreeding. I'm only saying that if I would have apiary of let's say about 100 hives, and varroa would kill eg 90%. Resistant apiary of 10 hives that were left in 10 - 20 generations would in my opinion have problems with inbreeding if genetics from only that 10 resistant hives would survive. If only genetics would be the key You could not count on other genes to prevent inbreeding, because all that "other" bees would die and the population would be more and more homogenous.

I might have not write it clear. English is not my first language. I hope I wrote better now what I ment.


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## BeesFromPoland

Juhani Lunden said:


> I don´t get you, how come inbreeding would be a problem when swarms/ferals are used? On the contrary.
> 
> Nature is the best breeder, if goal is surviving.


I ment exactly the opposite. I ment that inbreeding might show when you don't introduce that feral genetics, but mix only "selected bees". 
Again - I might havw written something wrong because of language issues.


----------



## BeesFromPoland

Michael Bush said:


> > Yet from what He writes Mr Bush brings some "unknown" (ferals, swarms - who knows what kind of bees they are?) genetics to his apiary and they tend mostly to survive. Are they all "selected"?
> 
> I raise my own queens, and of course I pick colonies that are productive, gentle and healthy to use for queen mothers. This applies a bit if selection, yes.
> 
> > of course some would be "naturaly selected" but if varroa kills maybe 90 - 95 % of "random, treated bees" how do these survive?
> 
> I've never had anywhere close to 90% losses except back when I had them on large cell and I was treating them... wich was 100% losses... A really bad winter (like -27 F or -33 C for two weeks or more) I might lose a little over 50%. In a mild winter (like not more than -10 F and only for a few nights) I might lose 20%. In a good winter (like not more than -1 or 2 F and only for a few days) I might lose 10%.



I understood wrongly some of Your work then - I thought You introduced swarms and ferals in Your stock... You write a lot about ferals (and keeping their genetics). I assumed some of them might have also been swarms from different apiaries...

90 - 95 % are the losses I read many beekeepers had when they started TF beekeeping - first/second year. I don't say that are the losses when the population stabilises. I hope they are not at least, because I will try to keep TF bees ;-)


----------



## mike bispham

BeesFromPoland said:


> That's not what I meant. What You just wrote is obvious for me. That's simple natural selection and I have no problem in understanding that. What I ment is when there are "trated hives" next to your apiary and you'll catch the swarm what would be the reason for them to survive if only genetics is the key?


OK: Of course they won't; and genetics is the key to why they'll die! 



BeesFromPoland said:


> Of course You can assume that swarms that survive come only from resistant bees.


Its probably a mistake to assume any such thing - but yes, it would be natural and logical to assume that swarms that survive and thrive without treatments are much more likely to come from feral colonies. 



BeesFromPoland said:


> But how many resistant apiaries would eg. Mr Bush have next to his? He writes that he catch swarms and they survive and make his apiary more and more genetically diverse...


No idea. But if he's collecting swarms I would expect that he'll go further to collect swarms that he suspects are feral/resistant than ones he anticipates are from domesticated stock



BeesFromPoland said:


> I don't mix that with inbreeding. I'm only saying that if I would have apiary of let's say about 100 hives, and varroa would kill eg 90%. Resistant apiary of 10 hives that were left in 10 - 20 generations would in my opinion have problems with inbreeding if genetics from only that 10 resistant hives would survive.


Iff you were mating only from within your own stocks, maybe - though 10 stocks containing the sperm of maybe 100-200 drones would I reckon be plenty to be getting on with, as long as you took care of that diversity. If you were on an island it might be different.  



BeesFromPoland said:


> If only genetics would be the key You could not count on other genes to prevent inbreeding, because all that "other" bees would die and the population would be more and more homogenous.


If you have any worries about inbreeding keep bringing in new blood. It'll happen anyway. Just try hard to get resistant blood.



BeesFromPoland said:


> I might have not write it clear. English is not my first language. I hope I wrote better now what I ment.


Yes that might be causing difficulties. I hope I've read you as you meant.

Mike (UK)


----------



## Michael Bush

>I understood wrongly some of Your work then - I thought You introduced swarms and ferals in Your stock... You write a lot about ferals (and keeping their genetics). I assumed some of them might have also been swarms from different apiaries...

Back when I had time (and I would now if I had time) I was doing cutouts and swarm catching and bait hives. But all of that was to resolve wintering issues. Yes, I would say most of the genetics in my hives came from feral survivors originally. Packages just don't make it through the winter here whether you treat them or not. I have less losses not treating than I had treating.


----------



## BeesFromPoland

Ok. I get it. 
But this is still not really reassuring... 
From what I understood it would be very hard for me if not impossible to go TF (I'm not saying I will not try. I still find it possible, just not that "easy" as I thought ... if I may use this word knowing the meaning of it, and 'power' of varroa)...

I have T apiaries in all directions in 1.5 - 2 km from mine. And I can have about 20 max 40 hives now. If surviving is the effect of joining natural conditions and this not more than 5 - 10% (let's assume it's 5?) resistant genetics, than my bees every time in maximum 2, 3 generations (maybe faster) will have "death penalty" for my crime of doing TF... No matter if they have natural hive conditions or not. 

Of course I know that the more resistant bees (drones) are in my apiaries than other apiaries will become more and more genetically resistant every year, but most of beekeepers don't keep their genetics but introduce queens from breeders and kill their queens maximum for 2-3 generations (they don't want them to become mix raced and breeders have "better bees" - they think they improve their stock that way). So my "possible-future resistant genetics" will be lost every time they kill their queens, and my queens will get their unresistant genetics. 

I thought there is more to natural conditions than You write here (or I understood what You have written). Of course I know and knew genetics is important, but from what You write, I would have to have really big apiary to dream of success. Small apiary will not keep the resistance. 

And my option is to buy not fully resistant stock every time and have again similar losses or buy queens for 500E and still have no guarantee... (I write it clear: I'm not expecting any guarantees, I just hoped for 70 - 80% survival after first couple years of collapse - from what You write in my condition 50% would be big success). 

Is it like I write it here? Perhaps there is a thread on this forum with discussion on that? I'm new to it, and the forum is vast...


----------



## Juhani Lunden

BeesFromPoland said:


> I have T apiaries in all directions in 1.5 - 2 km from mine. And I can have about 20 max 40 hives now.
> 
> Of course I know that the more resistant bees (drones) are in my apiaries than other apiaries will become more and more genetically resistant every year, but most of beekeepers don't keep their genetics but introduce queens from breeders and kill their queens maximum for 2-3 generations (they don't want them to become mix raced and breeders have "better bees" - they think they improve their stock that way). So my "possible-future resistant genetics" will be lost every time they kill their queens, and my queens will get their unresistant genetics.


This is a very serious problem, and it is the same all over the world.

Suggest to the beekeepers around you, that they either

- start to maintain their own stock 
or 

- that you supply them new queens(daughter queens or cells from your resistant bees, which you buy cheaply from a Polish bee breeder, not from me)

If these beekeepers around you would do either of these, then you could start to change the bee material in your region to be more varroa resistant. It takes time, but eventually it could be a start for something really big in beekeeping in Poland.


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## mike bispham

"[BeesFromPoland]: "So my "possible-future resistant genetics" will be lost every time they kill their queens, and my queens will get their unresistant genetics."



Juhani Lunden said:


> This is a very serious problem, and it is the same all over the world.


I don't think its insurmountable, though the heavier the infestation of duff drones, the harder it gets. 

The work-arounds: . 

First, as Manley points out (below) queen raising is an immensely potent breeding tool.

Secondly, deliberately raising large numbers of drones from your best queens is perfectly doable. There is also the possibility of a controlled drone release approach, where virgin queens and desirable drones are kept in their respective hives till late afternoon, when most mating activity has finished, then released for a semi-closed late afternoon mating session.

Third, not all patrilines in a colony need to have any particular mite-managing trait - or any mite-managing trait at all. You can afford some duff patrilines.

Forth, virgins can be taken to areas of known or likely feral activity.

The possibility that feral/self-sufficient bees have adapted to the presence of treatment-dependent drones by shifting their mating season is also worth looking into anyplace where ferals are likely to be present. 

Treated bees are a nuisance, but not an insurmountable barrier to self sufficient bees.

With Juhani's suggestion: local breeding clubs are another tool. As well as multiplying the drone factor and providing a bigger selection range and more genetic diversity, they are a forum for developing arguments, articulating the nature of the problem and the mechanics of the solution. They help spread the word locally, increasing the likelihood that other beekeepers will think more about the wisdom of treatment addiction. 

Mike (UK)

"In most farm stock stress is laid particularly on the male because he may
sire a large number of offspring, whereas the direct progeny of the
female are very limited in number. Now we breeders of hive-bees
have the great advantage over those who have to do with most
domestic animals in that from one desirable breeding queen we can
readily produce a virtually unlimited number of young queens.
Though in a state of nature a honey-bee queen would only produce
half a dozen or so daughter queens, and maybe a couple of thousand
drones, in the hands of a competent breeder she can be made to give
an almost unlimited number of both.

It is usually considered that too much in-breeding may lead to
deterioration in the stamina and fecundity of animals, though about
this there is some disagreement. When there is no trace of any bad or
degenerate strain in the stock, in-breeding does no harm, I think; but
unless one is quite sure that this is the case, it is probably better to
arrange, as far as possible, in our breeding apiaries, that the drones
flying there shall be produced by queens of the very highest
character, while the young queens with which they are expected to
mate shall be derived from breeder queens of a different strain, but
equally outstanding qualities. In this way, although it is impossible to
be certain that all matings will be as desired, yet it can be managed
that a very large proportion of our young queens will be the product
of the male and female parents from which we wish them to be
derived."

R.O.B. Manley, Honey Farming, page 62 of the pdf, 83 of the book
http://www.biobees.com/library/gener...gROBManley.pdf


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## BeesFromPoland

I know the ideas and methods You write about. 
I just hoped for the bee that needs little management - almost like feral. I mean at least as surviving is concerned - not productivity. I see that this would be almost impossible to accomplish. 
Well, i will try and see ;-) almost impossible sounds like possible ;-)
Thanks for Your advice.


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## mike bispham

BeesFromPoland said:


> I know the ideas and methods You write about.
> I just hoped for the bee that needs little management - almost like feral. I mean at least as surviving is concerned - not productivity. I see that this would be almost impossible to accomplish.
> Well, i will try and see ;-) almost impossible sounds like possible ;-)
> Thanks for Your advice.


I anticipate you'll tell me you knew this already but... there's no such thing as a bee strain that is immune from inheriting weaker traits... You _always_ have to manage mating arrangements. That's what husbandry _is_ - the successful _making of_ new bees that carry the traits you want. 

If you manage your genetics successfully, then you get the bee that manages itself - like ferals do, only better. Selective breeding means breeding is the_only_ thing you have to manage.

Good luck with your project!

Mike (UK)


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## BeesFromPoland

mike bispham said:


> I anticipate you'll tell me you knew this already but... there's no such thing as a bee strain that is immune from inheriting weaker traits... You _always_ have to manage mating arrangements. That's what husbandry _is_ - the successful _making of_ new bees that carry the traits you want.
> 
> If you manage your genetics successfully, then you get the bee that manages itself - like ferals do, only better. Selective breeding means breeding is the_only_ thing you have to manage.
> 
> Good luck with your project!
> 
> Mike (UK)


I know a lot theoretical stuff... ;-) I read everything I can. And practical ... well... I still have to learn a lot. I'm just starting my "bee adventure". I was just my second year.
Mr Lunden wrote somewhere: "Nature is the best breeder, if goal is surviving". So I guess I wanted to leave it to nature. But seems that nature would be to weak when surrounded by "unnaturally mated" bees... 
I want my bees to inherit only the traits thay need for surviving - that is why I was wondering if I can do "live and let die" methods and leave everything to nature and leave them management free for this trait. Seems I can't do it like that.


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## mike bispham

BeesFromPoland said:


> Seems I can't do it like that.


You can do it partly like that. Get in/create as many colonies as you can manage, from the best sources you can find. 

Don't treat them at all. Just leave them. Wait until its clear which ones are doing best and then (skillfully) use them to supply material (male and female side) to make more.

Repeat. Make lots to cover losses.

You have to think in terms of your population, not your individuals, and in terms of the development of that population on a multi-generational basis. That's just a mental shift.

Mike (UK)


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## BeesFromPoland

mike bispham said:


> You can do it partly like that. Get in/create as many colonies as you can manage, from the best sources you can find.
> 
> Don't treat them at all. Just leave them. Wait until its clear which ones are doing best and then (skillfully) use them to supply material (male and female side) to make more.
> 
> Repeat. Make lots to cover losses.
> 
> You have to think in terms of your population, not your individuals, and in terms of the development of that population on a multi-generational basis. That's just a mental shift.
> 
> Mike (UK)


That exactly was my general idea for the TF apiary. Stephen Braun writes about that method (www.resistantbees.com): Make as many nucs as possible. 
But I was writing and asking about that "later" time. One day I would want my losses to be "rational". More than 50 - 60% losses would be probably too much for me. I don't want my bees to die in that amount every year. I can agree to this for 3 maybe 5, 6 years and then I would want my apiary to have 70 - 80 % survival. I was hoping for more % survival every year till about 80% where I hoped it would stabilize some year (of course with some natural fluctuations). 
That is why I asked if genetics is the main point in this. And from what I understood You have written I shouldn't count on that survival without some breeding management...


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## Eric Crosby

Hi Bees from Poland, If you are inclined to try keeping bees treatment free then I would encourage you to do so and try not to worry too much about the long term outcome. My first year I treated with formic and Fumigilin and had %50 loss = 2 colonies lived and 2 died. year 2 I went up to 12 colonies TF. 3 survived 2 langs and one TBH. Year 3 I went to about 50 colonies with survival of about 25 so call it %50 loss. about 13 TBH and 12 lang. year 4 up to 100 colonies about 25 of which did not make it through the fall most of them being langs. So now I am sitting through winter with about 20 langs and almost 55 TBH all from various sources which would include swarms caught and nucs bought from sellers that treated. I was only able to get a couple of colonies starting out that came from people who had not treated for a few years. 
I have great appreciation for all the the TF beekeepers that have shared their experiences and a few beekeepers that treat as well (special thanks to M Bush, Kirk Webster, Mike Palmer, Wyatt Mangum, Mel Disselkoen, Les Crowder, and Garret W. I live in a large city with outyards varying in size from 1 colony to 10 colonies. I have other beekeepers all around me that will treat as they see fit, some as close as next door. Through attrition my bees are surviving better in natural comb in TBHs, so that is the part of the apiary that is growing fastest. I look forward to implementing small cell this year in langs as well as a few TBHs.


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## mike bispham

BeesFromPoland said:


> from what I understood You have written I shouldn't count on that survival without some breeding management...


If you're among treaters your mite-management traits will go downhill in every generation unless you work to redress the balance. And you should be doing that anyway. Husbandry _relies on_ selective breeding, constanty, always, no exceptions. 

Being among treaters you have to breed harder to redress the weakness they'll constantly be sending you.

Mike (UK)


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## Fusion_power

> Genetics mostly, environment has a role, but selling them into other countries and getting good reports from other breeders has convinced me that probably the role of environment is not as important as many beekeepers (like to) believe.
> 
> I have no idea how to balance an ecosystem, but I do know how to stop treatments. As John Kefuss says, beekeeper is the biggest obstacle. Advance in breeding takes place only if good selected virgin queens are mated with equally good selected drones. I try to make everything as cheaply as possible and with lowest possible amount of work. Giving space, making nucs, taking honey of, feeding to winter. That's it. Bees are better of when we leave them alone.


That last sentence is one of the keys to successful beekeeping. Bees are indeed better off when we leave them alone. Do only the minimum that is needed, but when something needs doing, take care of it. The preceding statement re the beekeeper being the biggest obstacle is the single biggest hurdle to getting all beekeepers off of treatments.

I had a warm day with temps to 68F (20C) yesterday so I went through a few colonies. Overall health is excellent. One colony is light on stores. There were a few more hive beetles than I like to see. They are starting to raise small patches of brood which means they are getting ready for spring. There were no visible mites - and I checked reasonably well. I am comfortable with my bees making it to spring. This is the 11th summer with no treatments.


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## BeesFromPoland

Again : thank You for all informations.

I know lots of methods - I read works of Mr. Bush, Mrs Lusby, Mr Webster, Mr Comfort, Mr Osterlund, Mr Braun, Mr Lunden and many many others that are doing TF all over the world. To tell the truth I often feel like I am one of the few in Poland that believes in TF beekeeping. That is why sometimens I hasitate if what I do is possible in our circumstances. There are many that believe in organic treatment methods or natural beekeeping methods (like foundationless, or even frameless hives), but very very few that believe in treatment free. 
As for me - I don't worry much about the future as Eric Crosby wrote, because I believe in the outcome. I'll find my way, this or the other. But we started to talk in Poland lately about TF. I try to convince many using mostly US (not only) TF beekeeping examples. Many people can't afford losses like 80% or more (when starting), they are worried about their economy, their chance of success. I'm just beginer in beekeeping, and the one that lost ALL his collonies doing TF this year. This is NOT good example, as You see ;-)
This is why I ask that questions - about breeding and keeping possible future resistant traits. We all have to make our opinions on that.


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## beepro

O.k. you have to believe in yourself to find the tf bees to begin with. Look at this
vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA0Sb22GA4s

There are already significant work being done here. Other places can duplicate our system here. They had already.
Go find some bees with the resistant traits to start with. From her site http://www.resistantbees.com/plastik_e.html
it seems like a small size cell will naturally bring in the resistant bee traits. I'm lucky that there are the resistant no
treat bees here for me to start with. So far 2 out of 3 got it. For instant one hive almost fell to the mites while the other 2 just
3 feet next to it develop the resistant traits. They survived beautifully without much infestation. All healthy workers flying when they
are supposed to. But why? Has the ads where I got my bees from said it right "we breed mite resistant bees" in our bee farm. 
From those I will start my queen rearing operation comes this Spring. My goal is to continue the tf and adding more resistant traits from other breeders.
It can bee done. You have to start with the right bee materials. But there is a learning curve of the how to while studying what others have done so far. 
Once you show them what can be done then it does not take much convincing. Until then you have to soft treat to get the resistant traits up. And continue
to find that good traits. Show them. It can be done! Only if you will believe in yourself.


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## mike bispham

Fusion_power said:


> The preceding statement re the beekeeper being the biggest obstacle is the single biggest hurdle to getting all beekeepers off of treatments.


I don't understand FP. How can telling it like it is be a hurdle to making change? If we all pretend they're not a problem what impetus is there for change? How will anyone ever see what the solution is?

Do you think the statement is untrue, or true but unsayable? Or have I misread you somehow?

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham

beepro said:


> Until then you have to soft treat to get the resistant traits up.


Can you explain what you mean by 'soft treat' Beepro?

Mike (UK)


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## BeesFromPoland

mike bispham said:


> Can you explain what you mean by 'soft treat' Beepro?
> 
> Mike (UK)


I'm not Beepro, but If I may...

I think he meant organic treatments that should help in surviving during the selection. Like interventions in collapsing collonies with changing queens for the ones that do better (like Mr Osterlund does) or decreasing dosage (like Mr Lunden did). 
I often think if they are necessary, and they should be done or not. From what I read many think without them on the start it is extremly hard (if not impossible) to find resistant traits, and many say to just go with "live and let die" strategy...


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## Fusion_power

I meant "The beekeeper is the biggest obstacle". I also meant that overcoming this obstacle is the biggest hurdle. Until all beekeepers are using mite tolerant genetics, we will be on a roller coaster of bees that "do" and others that "do not" have to be treated.

I'm sitting in an island of mite tolerant bees, artificially created by me forcing a few hundred mite tolerant swarms into the woods over the last 10 years. If every beekeeper in this area switched over to mite tolerant genetics, that island would grow allowing more beekeepers to go treatment free. The entire dynamic is undermined if just one large beekeeper continues to use susceptible genetics with seasonal treatments. This is why I sold bees to 3 local beginner beekeepers at prices of $50 per colony. It gets them started with mite tolerant genetics. It expands the island.


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## Juhani Lunden

Fusion_power said:


> I meant "The beekeeper is the biggest obstacle". I also meant that overcoming this obstacle is the biggest hurdle. Until all beekeepers are using mite tolerant genetics, we will be on a roller coaster of bees that "do" and others that "do not" have to be treated.
> 
> I'm sitting in an island of mite tolerant bees, artificially created by me forcing a few hundred mite tolerant swarms into the woods over the last 10 years. If every beekeeper in this area switched over to mite tolerant genetics, that island would grow allowing more beekeepers to go treatment free. The entire dynamic is undermined if just one large beekeeper continues to use susceptible genetics with seasonal treatments. This is why I sold bees to 3 local beginner beekeepers at prices of $50 per colony. It gets them started with mite tolerant genetics. It expands the island.


Great post Fusion _Power!

This is exactly what I meant in post 91. Expanding the island. It is something a beekeeper must work hard to create. It is the center idea of Josef Koller in Germany, in his new revolutionary plan to make all beekeeping treatment free: "Zuchtproject Basiszucht." All begins in one yard and one circle, expanding circle.


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## beepro

By soft treat I mean treating the mites without the harsh chemical residues after the
treatment. Yes, it is good for the initial build up and requeening too. So sugar dusting is
consider a soft treat without any harmful residue in the hive. Now I have a hive nuc with mites
causing the queen to fly away. Though she left a qc about to hatch in there. I often consider the
sugar dusting option but wanted to see if the hygienic frame of bees and about to hatch broods I added 2 days ago
will clean up the mites in this nuc hive. Sugar dusting will cause some types of micro faunas to grow at the sides of
the hive on the wooden shims. I should of take a picture when the bees were grouping there to feed on the sugar and
fungus below. I don't know what type of fungus the are eating but this hive was once had a mite population and DWV but now all cleared
up to enable them to have healthy worker bees again. Both sides of this hive is growing and healthy too running a double
queen set up. Now I consider pouring the sugar inside this hive to act as a food source for the bees and fungus while stopping
the mites from clinging onto the bees when they fell to the bottom of the hive. I always like to do bee experiments to incorporate the ideas and
methods of others with success before me. Will the sugar pan enable the beneficial fungus to grow more while preventing the mites from clinging on the
bees again once they fell off?


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## mike bispham

beepro said:


> I always like to do bee experiments to incorporate the ideas and
> methods of others with success before me. Will the sugar pan enable the beneficial fungus to grow more while preventing the mites from clinging on the
> bees again once they fell off?


I'd be cautious of the following problem: if it works (as a miticide) then it has the potential to conceal exactly the problem you need to breed away from. But it sound like you're aware of that sort of thing. 

That's true of sugar dusting, and (if it works) sugar fungus growing. What you want is bees that thrive without any help. 

Mike (UK) 

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham

Fusion_power said:


> I meant "The beekeeper is the biggest obstacle". I also meant that overcoming this obstacle is the biggest hurdle. Until all beekeepers are using mite tolerant genetics, we will be on a roller coaster of bees that "do" and others that "do not" have to be treated.


Got you, with you.



Fusion_power said:


> I'm sitting in an island of mite tolerant bees, artificially created by me forcing a few hundred mite tolerant swarms into the woods over the last 10 years. If every beekeeper in this area switched over to mite tolerant genetics, that island would grow allowing more beekeepers to go treatment free.
> 
> 
> 
> This sort of graphic representation of the state of affairs is excellent. In the past I've used a similar thing, the idea of a 'doughnut of death' around a treating apiary within an environment of ferals.
> 
> 
> 
> Fusion_power said:
> 
> 
> 
> The entire dynamic is undermined if just one large beekeeper continues to use susceptible genetics with seasonal treatments.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say its undermined to a degree with every domesticated hive. Quite what the level of damage is none of us really know. But certainly the more domesticated hives, the bigger the problem (maybe rather, the more domesticated drones...). And on the other side, the more untreated and feral colonies, the better the defence.
> 
> Do you think your escapee swarms have any difficulty finding viable nest sites? Its something I worry about.
> 
> 
> 
> Fusion_power said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is why I sold bees to 3 local beginner beekeepers at prices of $50 per colony. It gets them started with mite tolerant genetics. It expands the island.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Expands or increases density. Great.
> 
> Mike (UK)
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## shinbone

"To be treatment free, get treatment free bees to begin with" sounds like great advice.

How does one go about finding TF queens which are appropriate for one's area? Is there a directory of TF queen breeders somewhere?


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