# solid vs screen bottom



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Find some local...long term, successful beekeepers and ask what they use.
My bet is the answer will be solid bottoms.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Bees only need 50 percent humidity so you are way over that. 
The reason screened bottom boards were introduced is to reduce Varroa load as the mites drop through the screen and do not reattach if there is a 3/4 inch gap. They are that lazy.
Shavings on the bottom are the worst place as SHB, wax moths and all the hive trash accumulate there into a breeding festering mess.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

If you are concerned about varroa population in your hives, you would do better to use solid bottoms, keeps higher humidity and higher temperature during the breeding season which is harder on varroa, the screened bottom was just a knee jerk reaction to eliminating as many mites in the hive as possible by way of them falling through the screen and not being able to climb back up. Before varroa a screened bottom was unheard of. John


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

What _Muddymom _didn't say specifically above (it was on another thread) is that she is planning on using Top Bar Hives, so consider that in your responses._ EDIT:Oops, I just noticed this is posted in the Top Bar forum, but note that sometimes members don't consider the particular forum when composing their reply. _:lookout:

If you do choose to put in screened bottoms in your TBHs, make sure you have a way to close off the screen bottom with a solid board at times. There are quite a few threads on Beesource where new beeks have experienced absconding with newly installed packages in open screened bottom TBHs. Close off the bottoms at least until the bees have established themselves and built a significant amount of comb.

IMHO , new beeks, especially those that want to be "chemical free" would do well to study _all _pages of Michael Bush's site. Here is some info on the screen bottom issue.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeswinter.htm


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## Ted adams (Mar 20, 2012)

beemandan said:


> Find some local...long term, successful beekeepers and ask what they use.
> My bet is the answer will be solid bottoms.


Dan, as I respect your opinion n knowledge , Do you suggest solid bottom boards in our Ga locations?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Ted adams said:


> Dan, as I respect your opinion n knowledge , Do you suggest solid bottom boards in our Ga locations?


Kind of you to say Ted. I prefer solid bottoms. The initial studies suggested slightly lower (around 15%) mite populations when using screened bottoms. Other studies conducted since have had mixed results. To my thinking any improvement is inconsequential. On the other hand, from personal observation, I've seen small have beetles come and go through screened bottoms...evading the bees' efforts to sequester them. Add to that any small hive beetle larvae that fall from the comb are sure to end up in the soil beneath...which is exactly where they want to be. On a solid bottom they must run the gauntlet of bees to pass out the entrance and get to the soil. 
So...to make a long story short...I don't think screened bottoms make a positive difference.


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## Che Guebuddha (Feb 4, 2012)

Instead of spending money on unsustainable materials why not simply go with a Top Entrance like M. Bush does. I will do the same on my new hives since I too live in an area of high humidity.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

I only theorize (not enough to prove it) that my screened bottoms help with reducing swarm urges. My bigger hives started acting
like they were getting antsy to swarm until I dropped all the bottoms on the populus hives. I noticed a reduced amount of queen cups
and incoming honey that was starting to build up in the broodnest got moved to the back of the hive. I think the increased ventilation
reduced their perception of crowding. This is the first season I was able to do this. It's not a pattern yet. But, for me, Saint Patrick's
day this coming spring will be spent dropping the bottoms on several hives. I hope.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

beemandan said:


> Find some local...long term, successful beekeepers and ask what they use.


Only prob there, BMD, is long-term in these hyar parts often equates to "set in their ways."


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

How do you choose which gadgets sold by the bee supply folks that you are going to add to your hive?
You don’t trust the old timer, local beekeepers opinions. You ask on Beesource and get conflicting opinions.

As far as screened bottoms. They were introduced…around ten or twelve years ago. UGA/Clemson U conducted some joint studies that suggested that a screened bottom board could reduce varroa populations by as much as 15%. Various studies since have had mixed results. I believe it was Cornell that decided that they made no difference.

Regarding improved ventilation. I am not aware of any studies that indicate that the increase in ventilation improves the well being of a bee colony. Logic would tell me that if they increase summertime ventilation….they increase winter ventilation. Opinions are polarized. They reduce winter condensation. They add unnecessary chill to the bee cluster. Which will you buy into….and why?

I’ve still got about fifty of them. I recently sold about a hundred for half of what they cost…..and I say good riddance. I tried them. I don’t like ‘em. But if you figure I’m an old guy….stuck in my ways….so be it..


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

beemandan said:


> But if you figure I’m an old guy….stuck in my ways….so be it..


BMD, My opinion of someone set in their ways is one who rejects new ideas without trying new ideas. (And I really don't know how old you are; didn't read your bio; just a general comment - sorry you thought I was being personal.)


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Muddymom, screened bottoms are not necessary, nor do I recommend them. It is as jmgi said in post #4.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Seymore said:


> BMD, (And I really don't know how old you are; didn't read your bio; just a general comment - sorry you thought I was being personal.)


I didn't take it personally. There isn't anything on these boards that gets me upset. Most days I think I'm thirty but the calendar says I'm sixty one. I know, in the long haul, the calendar will prevail....but for the moment I still think I'm a kid. 
It is a curiosity to me how, if you don't trust the old local beekeeping geezers for good advice...who can you trust? Many of the new beekeepers will tell you what they think...with absolute conviction but all too often they are expressing uninformed opinions. And on Beesource...the opinions will run the full gamut. So, where does one go for good advice?
I tried screened bottom boards...with a vengence and didn't like them. But that doesn't mean you won't love 'em.
Good luck.


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

I do not think the SBB is worth it--see my big post about this I made I while back:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...oards-Screened-bottom-boards-are-not-worth-it


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Bmd, exactly. Who do you trust? When I try to determine my own path ... I ask questions (lots!), I listen, observe, read and read and read, and then I take the route that seems best based on all the info I've gathered. 

Btw, also please note my comment was not a universal dismissal of "old-timers." I did say "often equates" to a mindset. If I dismissed all "old-timers" just because they were an "old-timer," I would be no better than those who are closed-minded. Oh yeah, I know this Beek who must be all of 45. He is one of the most closed-minded people I know!

The hardest part (well, certainly way up there!) of beekeeping IS knowing who to trust. If I listened to what literally EVERYONE around here told me to do, I'd be in 10-frame deep equipment. I'm short, female, lousy upper body strength. I wouldn't have had a chance with that equipment. 

I just know this... I try to stack the odds in my favor. Sometimes it pays off. Sometimes it doesn't. 

Glad I didn't offend.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Seymore said:


> I'm short, female, lousy upper body strength. I wouldn't have had a chance with that equipment.


That sounds like that 'old-timer' mindset you were talking about. I would give you more credit.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I had both screened bottom and solid bottom hives this year, and the only solid one I have now has a 2" hole drilled in it with #8 hardware cloth stapled over it inside and out.

I keep black rubber pondliner on the ground under my hives, so no grass grows up, and it's pretty toasty in summer for a beetle larva to be trying to burrow through. 

I saw less bearding and better temperament in the heat on my screened bottoms. I can put in a white sticky board in all but one (it's sticky tray is in the garage - so it is a guinea pig this winter). I built my own, It was a pain, but a worthwhile investment. Next year I'll find a place to buy them reasonably. Screens. With white trays so I can see what falls out and sticks in my cooking oil. 

Gypsi


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> That sounds like that 'old-timer' mindset you were talking about. I would give you more credit.


Oh really? Do you have to hit your thumb with a hammer to know it would hurt? ME lift 60, 70, 90 pounds? I HAVE hoisted a 40# bag of dog food ... But not very gracefully! I can have a chance with a full medium super. That has proved to be my limit. I do pull the odd frame here and there when its really heavy. I think some old-timer suggested that to me.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Seymore said:


> ... someone set in their ways is one who rejects new ideas without trying new ideas....


 Unfortunately, I do find it is true between many beekeepers. No personal offense there! I find that communication with such individuals is difficult - they are nice to you only if you agree with all their teaching/mentoring. Once you challenge them with simple question "why?" many of them got offended and the best answer would be "because!" On the positive side, I have to admit that as long as you behave as a 1st year student, many of them would be happy to share their expertise, teach you... I am very grateful for all teachings beekeepers provided to me.

As for screened bottom - I decided on it against many experts opinions and very happy with my decision. I am using a sandwich: screen-space-solid board. Space used for sticky board or oil pan if necessary. Space may be closed by solid board (never happened). I am using windows aluminum screen, which has probably smaller mesh than #8 recommended. It means, that nothing could get into the hive from outside. I am not sure about SHB. Never saw one. I feel that mesh is just about the size of SHB, it may be good or not. But, it is for sure that SHB larvae could escape through the screen (for good or not). When I had some wax moth problem, oil tay solved it very quickly. I found that thick layer of oil on the sticky board works very well on wax moth also. 

In my opinion, the major communication problem between bee-people is that commercial beekeepers sometime are trying to impose their experience on small-scale hobbyists. It needs to be understood that hobby is not a manufacturing process. Please, excuse me for my statement - it has no intention to offend anybody; I just present my position on this matter. Sergey


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Rigid mindsets aren’t limited to old timers. It isn’t unusual to see first year…and even sometimes non beekeepers arguing their opinions and philosophy with vehemence. I see conventional and treatment free folks who are blindly closed minded.
Seymore, you say you read a lot. Keep in mind that many authors can be just as narrow minded as anyone else.
My approach, I think, has been to try to understand the life cycles and basic biology of bees and their parasites…and then try to rationalize any advice given with that understanding. If something looks promising, I’ll usually try it on a limited scale and do my best to give it an objective evaluation. I’ve tried small cell, foundationless, treatment free yards, various miticides, beetle traps, sunny yards, shady yards, screened bottoms….and all sorts of other gadgets and gizmos. And yet I’m far from an expert.
There are a number of very objective posters on Beesource. I’m afraid that if I name a few I’ll surely overlook some too.
I am friends with a very successful lady beekeeper and appreciate the extra challenges she faces. By golly does she ever have the Midas touch with bees!
I’m not even sure what the purpose of this post might be other than to say if you are looking for solid…good advice….I’m the gold standard…..just kidding 
Good luck


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Dan, I completely agree!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I have never experimented with screened bottom boards primarily because they aren't very forklift friendly but perhaps someone with some experience can answer a basic question I have about them. What keeps the mite that has fallen through one from simply crawling back into the hive through the entrance or even the screen? Anyone who has closely observed them is aware that they are quite athletic little critters and it's been proven that they can live for at least a day or so on their own without a host. Seems to me unless the hive is situated to make reentry quite difficult that there may be little gained.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Jim, mine have a removable oil tray under them. Catches the mites and shb larvae. They were not created for mite control but for SHB control. The death of mites is just an added benefit. They are called Freeman bottom boards.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

But that is for a Lang hive. Keep forgetting I'm in a TBH thread. :lookout:


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> What keeps the mite that has fallen through one from simply crawling back into the hive through the entrance or even the screen?


They are amazingly mobile. I think the further the hive is off of the ground, the less likely the mite will find her way back. I also am not sure how sensitive they are to brood pheromones. Confined within the hive, they clearly have no problem finding brood. But what about six inches of open air between them and the hive?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Seymore said:


> But that is for a Lang hive. Keep forgetting I'm in a TBH thread. :lookout:


Until you said this....I wasn't aware of it either. Sheesh!


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Just a slight sidetrack here, but I was just thinking how they say the mite size compare to bee is an unusually large predator to host relationship in nature. So, with that in mind you really wonder why it is that the bees(normal non VSH) don't do better at grooming each other of mites, and killing/removing them from the hive when they see them crawling around on the combs. We all know how bees react quickly to every little speck of trash or bug they see on the bottom board, and are great housekeepers, yet the mite which is alive and moving around in the hive seems to go about doing whatever it wants to a certain extent. Just don't get it.:scratch:

John


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I teach beginners beekeeping classes. I show students the nest architecture, i.e. brood centered, surrounded by a ring of pollen followed by honey, larval brood gets fed, mature brood gets capped and so on. Then I then remind the class that all of this careful organization occurs in total darkness. We open up a hive in daylight and look around inside…but otherwise, except for whatever little, indirect light might enter via the entrance….it is dark inside. The bees depend on smells and pheromones to orchestrate the complex activities inside a hive. So, without offending pheromones, or a size that the bees detect in darkness….varroa mites move about unmolested.
That’s my opinion.


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## Che Guebuddha (Feb 4, 2012)

@jmgi
The Neonicotinoid pesticides attack the bees nervous system and they dont function right. They stop grooming and some cant even find their way home. Bayer sells a Neonicotinoid against termites which attacks the termite's nervous system so that they stop grooming themselves from soil fungi and get infected by them. Bees are similar colony based super organism as the honeybees and most farmers use seeds coated in Neonicotinoid which enters the pollen.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

They also have nifty little sucker feet which may provide a challenge to the bees with casual grooming.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Che Guebuddha said:


> @jmgi
> The Neonicotinoid pesticides attack the bees nervous system and they dont function right. They stop grooming


So...if my bees aren't in an area where neonics are used....I don't have to worry about varroa?


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## eriklane (Dec 4, 2012)

I think we have to remember what bees do naturally-find a spot and build a hive. It must be warm enough, and safe enough, dry enough, etc. If they're in a tree, I'd suspect they could be below or above the hole, with ventilation possibly only that 1 hole. They do fine. No insulation, nothing. Some die, most live. An old dead tree may start opening up with gaps, holes, and they leave it-too much air coming in, etc. A solid good tree may be tighter than a drum, with a bottom hole, and last for years, in cold climates, or hot. I think we try too hard to think about how 1 set of rules will be the 'best'...I do that too. For me, I'm going to just try and imitate a tree hive the most, and let the rest fly. I'm going to build a heavy sided hive, and put it in the shade. I'll probably paint it a tree color, grayish brown, and have it up off the ground. The rest? Don't care. A tree bark would naturally be somewhat warm in winter sun, and, shaded during summer. Bees in hot hives out in fields seems to me to be a stresser that they just don't need. 3/4" wood isn't very thick...So anyway...


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I have mostly screen bottom boards only because that was all the talk when I started 3 years ago. Now I'm wondering since there is absolutely no difference in mite load or hive performance with my solid board hives. Actually, the solid boards are producing more honey. 

I placed a piece of plywood under all my screen boards which leaves about an inch of space between the screen and the plywood. I agree with erik that I think it's best to mimic a tree and I've never seen one with a screened bottom.


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## Che Guebuddha (Feb 4, 2012)

> I have mostly screen bottom boards only because that was all the talk when I started 3 years ago. Now I'm wondering since there is absolutely no difference in mite load or hive performance with my solid board hives. Actually, the solid boards are producing more honey.


I too made my first TBH with a screened bottom, but after a few month I took it off and screwed a solid bottom board in its place. Screens, besides not being sustainable, are of no big help for the bees unless transporting them long distances maybe.


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## beaver (Nov 4, 2012)

I started with 6 hives last year. 3 on solid bottoms, 3 on screened bottoms. I figured since the opinions were about half/half, try half/half. I realize that 1 year is not long enough to draw conclusive conclusions, but it is long enough for some observations.
I cannont tell any differance in mite loads between the two differant bottoms. There is a noticible differance in hive size, though. The 3 hives on the solid bottoms are much bigger than the 3 on screen bottoms. And the only honey I got this year came from the hives on the solid bottoms.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

The spring buildup is where SBB's are really damaging. How many beginners who have bees that "just won't take off"! are using them? When a colony is building up, it all about climate control. That is why nucs can seem to stall in cold weather when moved into a full size box. Try styrofoam follower boards leaving the bees just an empty frame or two at a time. It makes an amazing difference in cool weather for me.


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