# Comb protection



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Brood comb, keep bees on them.
Honey comb, keep brood out of them.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

By allowing plenty of light and fresh air to get to the combs.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

RiodeLobo said:


> How do you protect stored comb with out the use of chemicals or other treatments?



What are you trying to protect it from :s


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

I've found that putting combs in a deep freeze at -15F for 3 or 4 days kills all stages of everything living in/on the comb. 1st seal the combs into a plastic trash bag (I put the whole super or deep into the bag), then freeze for a few days and finally store -- still in the bag -- until needed. Make sure the bag is sealed/tied so that no critters can get at the comb. My chest freezer (a cheap $200 from Lowe's) can handle 3 or 4 mediums/deeps at a time.

Oreviously I used Certan, but it's too much work and seems to wear-off/lose strength and become less effective over time.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Simply leave the supers on the hive throughout the winter. I've been doing it for 8 years. It has not failed me yet. On the other hand, I don't mind if they get a bit of brood in them in the spring.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Doesn't that give a place for the warmth of the colony to escape to? Or do you seperate the empty supers from the part of the hive where the bees are, w/ an inner cover? I have seen that done, even in NY. Tho I don't recommend doing it.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

WiredForStereo said:


> Simply leave the supers on the hive throughout the winter.


Is there a maximum that you can leave on?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I've done this as well, Sol. For about 6 years, I left all the supers on year round. Never had any problems.

Mark, you know bees don't heat the hive cavity, just the cluster. No separation between supers. All open from top to bottom. I've seen hives occupy a wall cavity from floor to ceiling (8').


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The cluster doesn't heat the hive, they heat the cluster. The cluster is so small and the hive so large that virtually all heat generated within the hive is lost through the walls. This is a thermodynamic fact in my hives because I keep them so large. A doctor beekeeper friend of mine has a son who did a science fair project where he measured the temperature inside hive in increments of one or two inches from top to bottom. He found that more than two inches away from the cluster, the temperature difference is negligible compared to the entire rest of the hive. 

On top of that, I regularly but not always use upper entrances and have left them open over quite a number of winters as primary entrances. In the old days I used solid bottom boards with 3/8" spacers and only an inch wide entrance. The primary entrance was 3/4" x however wide at the top. One thing I noticed is that the snow melts away from the entrance when it's an upper, but not from a lower entrance. There appears to be a tiny current of air escaping that's just warm enough to overcome and melt the snow. I haven't tried it here where temps can drop to -24F. Truth be told, I don't recall losing a hive with an upper primary entrance since the early days of regression. All that I have lost in the last three years have been bottom entrances only. But I'm not claiming these as proof, the sample size is too small. But it is there as anecdotal evidence. Michael Bush runs upper entrances primarily as well, and he reports good overwintering characteristics. http://bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm

It is my estimation that the most you can leave on depends on the temperature. I typically overwinter with five deeps, the comb in the top two being mostly or completely empty. In the pictures on my blog, you'll see two hives five deeps tall. Those are my older hives. Two are four tall, they were a nuc and a swarm last year and that's how big they got (without feeding I might add) and the one with three is a swarm that got that big as well. I have two double-wide deep boxes upon which I have piled up the equivalent of seven deeps worth of comb with not a single wax moth. There has been the occasional ****roach sitting on the top bars in the top box but that's the same for all the hives. 

Again, what you do should depend on your area. We have really cold spells in which I doubt wax moths are able to do much at all, and very regular very warm spells in which the bees are able to patrol the hive and fly and that sort of thing. This happens throughout winter. It is normal for us to have a 70 degree day and a day below 10 degrees every month of winter. Sometimes, it's the next day.

In the end, all I can say is try it out. If it works, use it. If it doesn't, don't. If you're worried about brood getting in the supers in the spring, use a queen excluder.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Mark, you know bees don't heat the hive cavity, just the cluster. No separation between supers. All open from top to bottom. I've seen hives occupy a wall cavity from floor to ceiling (8').


This is true and I never meant to imply they did. But, as everyone knows heat rises, so the warmth of the cluster would, at least to some degree or another, be lost from the top of the cluster.

In a wall cavity, isn't there honey above the cluster, not vacant space or comb?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> The cluster doesn't heat the hive, they heat the cluster. The cluster is so small and the hive so large that virtually all heat generated within the hive is lost through the walls. This is a thermodynamic fact in my hives because I keep them so large.


I will simply disagree w/ the idea that the heat is lost through the walls as your friend would note that the temp. next to the cluster, to the side, was the same tewmp as outside of the hive, if he also took note of that. Heat is not lost thru the walls, but as it rises above the cluster.

Apparently, leaving supers on ones colonies thru the winter works for those who I tried it, though I have never known anyone else to recommend it.

As Michael Bush would say, "Everything works, if you let it." Or something like that.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Actually, Mr. Berninghausen, you are mistaken in a very fundamental way. Heat does not rise. A heated fluid rises in relation to a cooler fluid. It is the buoyancy of the heated fluid due to the fact that when heated, it is less dense than the fluid surrounding it. 

Heat may be transferred in three ways. First a heated fluid rises, this is called convection. 

Secondly, heat can be transferred directly through any substance by the successive molecules transferring energy by essentially vibrating each other. Each substance has a thermal conductivity. Wood for instance has a thermal conductivity of 0.12 W/m*K. That's energy transferred per meter at some temperature difference measured in Kelvins. Fourier's Law express conductive heat transfer as q=kAdT/s where A is the transfer area, k is the thermal conductivity, dT is the temperature difference between the inside and outside, and s is the thickness of the material.

Third, heat can be transferred through radiation. This is like when you feel heat from a radiant heater or woodstove. This heat is electromagnetic radiation like light but with a longer wavelength.

Radiation from a heated cluster is small but measurable through infrared analysis and travels in all directions from any point source. This cannot be blocked by anything but a sheet of metal or foil. If energy were not escaping, it would not be visible by an infrared camera. 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BFbh_0qwmc4/TWga5yt0OEI/AAAAAAAAAZ8/PxUmzeaLvIA/s1600/infrared_hives.jpg

Direct conduction from the cluster is likely negligible due to the fact that comb is mostly air (such as it is, not wax as a substance) and air has a very low thermal conductivity. Heat is also carried away from the cluster through convection. Then as it reaches the top of the hive, the heat is transferred through the roof by conduction. This heat leaving the air causes a change in the ability of the air to hold water and thus, water condensates on the surface where the heat transfer is taking place. The greater the heat transfer, the greater the change in water vapor. If there is low enough heat transfer, there will be no condensation.

While the temperature of the air inside the hive is only slightly warmer than outside the hive due to the presence of the cluster, whenever there is a differential in temperature, there will be net movement of heat from the warmer side to the cooler side of the system no matter the level of insulation. Insulation serves only to slow conduction.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I concede the argument.

Why am I told to wear a hat during the winter if I want to keep warm? I guess I identify to closely w/ my bees.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> In a wall cavity, isn't there honey above the cluster, not vacant space or comb?


Most likely, but so is there honey above the cluster even when you have empty supers on.

Here are the two hives (7 and 8 mediums high) that remained like this for 6 years.










Perhaps this is a good time to mention this study again?

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> Why am I told to wear a hat during the winter if I want to keep warm?


Same reason why you should go to the doctor if you get sick. You are not a beehive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I would like a more simple straightforward answer. Please.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If you would like to know why you need to wear a hat, perhaps you should ask in the Tailgator forum.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

My impression is that the theory being put forth here is that a hive with 6 empty supers consumes no more resources than one with no supers... correct?

Also that the supers stacked above serve as an insulated barrier to the rising heated fluid generated by the cluster. I believe that is what is being put forward... please correct me if I am wrong.

Herb


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Herb, if it's my theory you're following, then no, I am making neither of those assertions.

I am saying that it's okay to keep the supers on year round.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Mark, you are doing the right thing by wearing a hat in the winter, if WFS wants to not wear a hat based on his in depth explanation above, let him pay the doctor bills. John


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

It appears that both you and Barry have the same idea. What I am trying to understand is the mechanism by which this works and what the advantages are.

We certainly have plenty of wax moths in this area, but we do not have them in the winter. So placing them on the hive is a convenient place to leave them if it does not impact the cluster.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Herb,

The advantages are that we don't have to use chemicals like moth repellants to store comb over the winter. We are both committed to being treatment free and so this is a great help to us.

As far as the mechanism, I don't think we're trying to say there are a load of benefits. There may well be, but our goal is to keep the comb from being eaten by moths, and we are saying there is no harm in leaving the supers on the hive as we have done for years.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

If one is concerned about the heat issue, go ahead and put them over an inner cover. Try it. I just don't see the need to make this into some bigger than it is. The winter cold will keep anything from damaging the comb.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Sol - with respect, help me understand what you are saying:

The cluster doesn't heat the hive, they heat the cluster. The cluster is so small and the hive so large that virtually all heat generated within the hive is lost through the walls


One thing I noticed is that the snow melts away from the entrance when it's an upper, but not from a lower entrance


The second paragraph seems to contradict the first paragraph.

Crazy Roland


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I will not comment on storing comb on a live hive over the winter. BUT this is how we store extracting supers of comb over the winter. Our honey supers start to go back into storage at the end of July. Yes, this is the middle of Summer and dead in middle of the wax moth season in ALABAMA. We place 36 supers on a regular wooden pallet. Then we shrink wrap the supers on the pallet. Then we carry the pallet of supers to storage. Storage is in a pole barn that has a top on it and three sides. We store 3000 supers there over the non production period. Because there is airflow and sunshine, the wax moth does not bother the combs. Mice are controlled with a couple of cats that we keep around the farm. What I am going to tell you next many people do not know!! Because there is air and sunshine flowing through and reaching the combs, ANY possible contaminants DEGRADE>>>> So if I had Amitraz residues in the comb (which I do not because I have not use this since the 80's!!!) it would evaporate. The chemical Coumaphous degrades in Sunshine.....Thymol evorporates......The pyritherin in Apistan breaksdown do to exposure to air. Non spore forming diseases are thus kept in check due to the drying out effect of air and sunshine. Thus our comb is sqeaky clean and has not had fumigants applied to it when it goes back on the bees!! And guess what, I discovered this method of comb storage by mistake!! And we have had the comb tested by the state of Alabama. TED


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Two separate paragraphs, two separate trains of thought.

I didn't use upper entrances this last winter. Therefore most heat escapes through walls. Next paragraph. Upper entrances allow heated air to escape, melting a bit of snow.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

My house doesn't have an upper entrance... but I would bet that there is more heat loss at the top than through the sides... ie: walls.

The physical laws of nature are most likely the same in your area.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Depends on what the top is. From the thermal images I saw, it seems a bit escapes through the hand grip cut outs. I was speaking of the top as included with the walls anyway. Pardon my simplification of the model. I didn't mean to infer that the roof has nothing to do with it.


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## no1cowboy (May 18, 2007)

After I have extracted I place the supers on the hive to be cleaned up then place them in a shed in a way so mice cant get into them and they stay there untill the next season.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In a cold climate, you can put them back on the hive when you are done extracting. Leave them there until a hard freeze. Pull them off and stack them somewhere they will freeze. Put them back on in the middle of spring and never have a problem. The bees guard them while they are on the hive. The cold keeps the moths out of them. In the spring there are no moths yet. You put them back on before the moths get going and the bees guard them again. I haven't had to deal with them in a warm climate, but my impression is you can just leave them on the hive, since heat isn't an issue and the bees need to guard them.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

To summarize:

1- Leave on the hive. At least until a hard freeze or all winter.

2- Expose to light and air, but keep vermin out.

Thank you all for your responses.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Or, if you keep brood out of the comb, you don't have to do anything. I've kept mine on the hive, in the basement, and outside in a shed.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Barry, is it really true that wax moths will not bother comb that has never had brood raised in it? even if it has some honey or pollen in it?
I've often read this but it's so hard to believe!
So, is it really the cocoon remnants they are after?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

That's been my experience. I've had the odd one here or there that never amounted to anything. Had to be the pollen, but the larva did very little damage and died for lack of food.

*e) The larva*
After hatching, the young larva immediately searches for a comb in order to feed and to build the silk-lined feeding tunnels. Speed of growth is directly dependent on temperature and food supply. Under ideal conditions the larval weight can double daily during the first 10 days [4]. The metabolic warmth, which is created by this rapid growth, can increase the temperature in the spun silk nests far beyond the environmental temperature. The larva feed in particular on impurities occurring in wax, such as feces and the cocoons of bee larvae as well as pollen. The larva also eat wax. Larvae, which have been reared exclusively on pure wax (foundation, fresh comb), do not complete their development [4; 13]. Dark, old combs that contain many bee larval cocoons are most at risk.

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...otection-of-honey-combs-from-wax-moth-damage/


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