# Double Screen Board



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Mann Lake ones are made almost as large as the areas allow, if I remember correctly. I have made them with two holes each about the size of your opened hand. Never noticed the difference.
From one point of view, transfer of heat is a supposed benefit. From the point of view that the exclusion of queen pheremones due to preventing physical contact and trophillaxis between the two separated stocks is what induces the production of emergency or supercedure cells, then the larger the area would seem to work against it.

A few people have claimed that starting of cells did not occur. Snelgrove recommends also placing one or more honey supers plus an excluder between the queenright lower box and the one above the snelgrove board. I alway have and have not seen a failure to start cells.

Another factor that could affect outcome is different bee types. Carnis and Russians are more prone to starting queen cells when groups of a colony are separated from each other, compared to Italian bees.

Probably have muddied the water more than clarified anything. I bet Little John would have some ideas on it. The fellows on that side of the pond are famous for messing around with different styles of division boards and cell starters.


----------



## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

I use two 4" holes.


----------



## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

It seems that pheromones are "sensed" by bees in different ways.
Nasanov and alarm pheromones are spread through the air,similar to our smell.
Queen mandibular pheromones are spread by physical contact,more like our taste.
Of course that is generalizing.We can compare to our own senses but do we really know?



How do honey bees use pheromones to communicate? – Bee Health


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If you are making your opening doors hinged in the middle, part of it must swing in and can interfere with screens if they are large. If you hinge at the end of the doors, they only swing out, so screen size not a concern. Snelgroves original was two holes about 4 inches square or round. Cutting out the holes and securing the screen is easier with smaller rather than larger. As far as heat is concerned the floor will be about the same temperature as the bottom colony. Hingeing the doors is the most fiddly part of the construction. Thin the doors so they are a bit less than the opening as they get propolized a bit and can get hard to open and close after they have a few seasons on them.


----------



## Sam B (Jan 14, 2021)

Good, practical advice, Crofter, especially about the doors getting propolized. I wouldn't have thought about that. Thank you. I plan to make my doors swing from the side and outward.


----------



## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

I have 4 of them, given to me over the years. All are all full screening, doors on every side. The bees have not had a issue growing queens. I have also used to combine two hives and it has worked well for that also.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Sam B said:


> Good, practical advice, Crofter, especially about the doors getting propolized. I wouldn't have thought about that. Thank you. I plan to make my doors swing from the side and outward.


It is a fair bit of fiddling to use a common pivot for both top and bottom doors. I would offset them just a bit so you could use a separate screw for each door. Angled ends seems like a good way to make a stop but there is allways a bunch of bees you have to squish to close completely; doubly so with center hinged ones like in my picture.


----------



## Sam B (Jan 14, 2021)

How do you use them to combine hives? I've always just put a sheet of newspaper between the hives.


missybee said:


> I have 4 of them, given to me over the years. All are all full screening, doors on every side. The bees have not had a issue growing queens. I have also used to combine two hives and it has worked well for that also.


How do you use them to combine hives? I always just put a sheet of newspaper between them.

That is when I stack one on top of another. Is there some other way? With the screen there doesn't seem to be a way for the bees to mix.


----------



## Sam B (Jan 14, 2021)

crofter said:


> It is a fair bit of fiddling to use a common pivot for both top and bottom doors. I would offset them just a bit so you could use a separate screw for each door. Angled ends seems like a good way to make a stop but there is allways a bunch of bees you have to squish to close completely; doubly so with center hinged ones like in my picture.


Good advice. Thanks.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

crofter said:


> I bet Little John would have some ideas on it. The fellows on that side of the pond are famous for messing around with different styles of division boards and cell starters.


Hi Frank
Was just passing ...

I have an assortment of Cloake Boards: some full-sized; some full-size & divided which take two nuc boxes on top; and a couple of single nuc-box size - all of which have gates. Some of those gates are hinged, but most are removable. I like having gates on those boards as it then makes operating the slide a breeze. 

But - other than those I don't use gates, as most of my stackable boxes have 22mm holes (wine cork size) drilled in 'em, which are used as entrances, and corked-off when not required.

I run top bee-space here, which means I can make simple flat Crown Boards (inner covers), and in order to make similar simple flat Bottom Boards, I've made up a large number of 15mm (1/2"+) shims which sit between the box and plain bottom board to provide the necessary clearance. Each hive entrance is via the holes mentioned above, which also have anti-robbing screens placed across them.

With regard to double-screened boards, I don't have any - but I have quite a few single-screen boards. Some have 4" squares of (what you call) hardware cloth, and some are large sheets of steel mesh which started-off their life as fire-guards which normally surround open fire-places.

So - if I ever need a double-screen board, I simply use two singles with one of those 15mm shims in-between.  That way, I can still still use the singles for combining. A more flexible arrangement, imo.
'best
LJ


----------



## Sam B (Jan 14, 2021)

This is just a follow up. I finished making a double screen board with the help of your suggestions. One thing I have to do is to add a "knob" of some type to each of the gates so I can open the gate while the board is on the hive. Maybe I'll just put a screw into each one. I guess that's an advantage of the gates that are center pivoted - you can just press one side to open a gate. The other side looks pretty much the same as the side shown. The gates on the other side swing opposite to this side. That is, if a gate on the top pivots on the right side, the gate below it pivots on the left side so the pivot screws don't run into each other.
Thanks for the advice.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Looks good


----------



## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Nice job. J


----------



## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Very good.


----------



## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Mine are simple. One entrance, and I if need it blocked I put in a screen just like I do nucs or hives.
I also put on a small landing board.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Spadeapiaries said:


> Mine are simple. One entrance, and I if need it blocked I put in a screen just like I do nucs or hives.
> I also put on a small landing board.]


Yours is a double screen division board; Sam B's is a _Snelgrove_ double screen division board; it has a _pedigree_ and a few more tricks up its sleeves.


----------



## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I like that Spade. And it has a lot of uses. But you cannot divert foragers from top to bottom, like a Snelgrove board can. Snelgroves can work to optimize workforce strength after a split.


----------



## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I made some of these that I can put 2 4-frame nucs over a colony.


----------



## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

psm1212 said:


> I like that Spade. And it has a lot of uses. But you cannot divert foragers from top to bottom, like a Snelgrove board can. Snelgroves can work to optimize workforce strength after a split.


Mine are more commercial for sure. My family ran 2,200 hives and we just shook a frame or two of bees into a weak hive if it needed it. For me these are used to get a few extra queens through the winter to cover early losses.


----------



## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Spadeapiaries said:


> Mine are more commercial for sure. My family ran 2,200 hives and we just shook a frame or two of bees into a weak hive if it needed it. For me these are used to get a few extra queens through the winter to cover early losses.


Bob Binnie uses division boards very similar to yours and for similar purposes. He is a commercial guy as well. Y'all don't have time to manipulate doors back and forth to divert foragers. Mine is just a hobbyist piddle project.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I make the boards longer than the supers so I have a handle to more easiily lift them off with the box on top of them. 






Sam B said:


> Most of the Double Screen Boards (Snelgrove Board) I see advertised or on YouTube have fairly small holes covered by the screen. Is there some reason to keep the hole small?
> 
> In reading about them, it seems that one aspect of the board is that heat from the bees below the board can rise and help keep the bees (and brood) above the board warm. If so, it seems that a larger hole would be better.


----------



## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Darn clever odfrank.


----------



## tikkay (Feb 10, 2017)

I also made some like Spade did. My intention when building was to keep it simple and to use them for making splits. Now, I’m considering putting a 1/2” rim on the non-entrance side. This would be the opportunity to add a door or 2 to divert foragers.

I’m not opposed to increasing my hive numbers. 

Adding additional doors to entrance side of board isn’t real practical at this point, so are 1 or 2 doors on non-entrance side worth fiddling with or would it be best to leave as is?


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Have a look at this link for a bit of reading https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjt0K3ExIjvAhUPvJ4KHQazDEUQFjACegQIARAD&url=http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/The-Many-Uses-Of-A-Snelgrove-Board-by-Wally-Shaw.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1kOSxA04uApiVkylxV8k3_

The advantage of the diversion doors is that after you get the started queen cells capped you can divert foraging bees back down to the bottom box so that you dont lose honey production. You need the four side doors ( two each side, top and bottom.) to go through two diversions. With this system you get well fed queen cells above without depopulating the bottom box of foragers. In other words you can make an unequal split if you want to without raising queens under poor conditions. Just some advantages that can be had with the extra doors.

If they are going to be on very long you need the rim on the bottom side otherwise you violate bee space and they will fill the frame tops to the bottom of the division board


----------



## tikkay (Feb 10, 2017)

Thanks for link. That’s a great write-up filled with lots of good info. It’s been committed to paper. 
I realize now that I have what I made and it will have to do. I plan on making splits using queen cells and/or swarm cells. That’s how I’ve been doing it up until now, just using a nuc box instead. 
I didn’t put a rim on bottom side as I pictured it functioning as a migratory lid. Is it the screen they build up on if it’s left on too long?


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

tikkay said:


> Thanks for link. That’s a great write-up filled with lots of good info. It’s been committed to paper.
> I realize now that I have what I made and it will have to do. I plan on making splits using queen cells and/or swarm cells. That’s how I’ve been doing it up until now, just using a nuc box instead.
> I didn’t put a rim on bottom side as I pictured it functioning as a migratory lid. Is it the screen they build up on if it’s left on too long?


They bridge the screen and plywood to the tops of the frames in the lower box.


----------

