# Know your commercial beek



## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

It seems like most of you all in this forum knows each other. Is there a Commercial Beekeeper Convention that you all meet at, or does everyone know each other from this forum? Do some of you all meet while sending bees for pollination or something?:scratch:
I'm trying to get "in the loop" and do this commercially and i need some know it betters on my side if you know what i mean.:gh:
These forums are great, and we don't have any big guys around this area, just some hobby beekeepers. I'm not trying to get 2000 colonies (area can't support it) but i hope to get about 500 and have a retail store for locals.

So if anybody knows a good place to get to know some of you guys that would be great.


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Start here. This is where they meet. Find a local one.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Derek, you must be confusing us with someone who eats too much bacon.

Hi dnelson, come on up and visit sometime, I'll put you "in the loop".. Let's see, how's April 1st sound?, that's when we start shaking packages.

But to answer your question as to how we met, it is "all of the above". Yes, there are the national conventions AHPA and ABF and I imagine every state has their AHPA state conventions. There really aren't that many commercial beekeepers nationwide so if you don't know a particular beekeeper you know someone who does. 
There are some commercials on this board from IN, but not sure where in relation to you. Look through the member list and give them a call, visit them the beginning of April.
Sheri


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

The only place I know of is here. After 10 yrs. of commercial beekeeping you can become part of the underground society. That's when the "pros" will tell you the correct way to do everything instead of suffering and trying to figure it out yourself.(joke) If you want to learn, find someone that will hire you on. Bust your tail with the grunt work and pay attention. Don't ask tons of questions while the work is being done( a talking man is not a working man). Ask them after the day is finished and the anwers will make more sense to you.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Actually we all met in prison...Hambone still is in prison...he is supposed to be researching law but ends up on here all the time. Hey Derek...when are you due for parole?? :lpf:


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

alpha6 said:


> Hey Derek...when are you due for parole?? :lpf:


he just had his parole and didn't make it, he walked into the parole room with a shirt on that said "I LOVE BACON" but what he didn't know was the board members were also PETA members so they turned him down to save PIGS.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Get to know David Hackenburg. He knows everybody or they know him.

Commercial beekeepers on beesource may seem to know each other, but I have met very few in person. As far as I know.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Pick up your hive tool, report to work and develop some resistance to bee venum.

Ernie


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## CentralPAguy (Feb 8, 2009)

alpha6 said:


> Actually we all met in prison...Hambone still is in prison...


Shocked, Absolutely shocked.  Our prisons have certainly gotten too liberal and internet privileges too. 

Hambone, Tell me that it isn't true. If it is so, when and where are you working your bees. Is it some sort of Work Release program? Are you like your bees that you have to return to the Main Hive at darktime.:scratch:


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## dbest (Aug 9, 2005)

Have you ever seen the movie "Fight Club" its kinda like that. Including the rules.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Nelson what grows there? If it isn't desert it'll support a lot of hives. You just have to spread them out. We get a couple supers off of tulip poplar, sourwood, and w/e is blooming, and sometimes a super per crop bloom. Soybeans and cotton can put on a medium super per if they don't spray and kill everything. You can meet a lot of people on here, sqkcrk, john and sheri, tom laury, keith jarret, etc. I met my local guy with 3k hives, and pulling an additional 2k outta florida. Wouldn't hire outside the family. Find someone and work a season, seems to be what everyone's telling me. Everyone I've told I'm working for someone this season has told me it sounded like the oppurtunity of a lifetime. I'm really excited!


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Skinner is right. Figure that you will save lots of money (tens of thousands...no joke) from not making rookie mistakes by working for an experienced beek, even if it is just for a summer. The amount of knowledge that some of these guys have is amazing. My mentor and friend is a third generation commercial beekeeper. He talks about how Moses kept bees on the Ark, I mean he has done it all. Don't get me wrong, I read everything I can get my hands on about bees, but the practical knowledge and hands on experience I get and why things are done a certain way and why not to buy that equipment and why you need this one...I haven't seen in any books.

If you want to rub elbows with commercial beeks I suggest your state annual beekeepers meeting or one of the national ones. One of the best ones is the American Honey Producers Association meeting. AHPA is an organization for beekeepers, not packers and I recommend every beek join this group. They also throw a killer convention. http://www.americanhoneyproducers.org/


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

By the way, my name is Doug for anyone who would like to know, I'd give you all my signature but it isn't worth much (yet)

I would love to come up there to shake bees! But I have a bunch of packages coming in late March. I saw a couple of Indiana guys posting on here, I am down in the southern most eastern point in the state. Almost Cincinnati.

I'm hoping that if I diversify and start slow then I might do alright since I don't have the chance to work for a big time beek. I am going for 50 hives this year, 100 in 2011, and 300 in 2012. I hope to have a better knowlege base for the commercial side, then I will be looking at hopefully 1000 or more. A will be opening a storefront to sell equipment next Spring "Lord Willing". I have a full time job that will help until I can get going enough on the bees.

Our family goal isto make a complete living from beekeeping and provide the opportunity for some or all of our 6 kids to someday takeover. 

I'll tell you what, I am such an idiot! I actually looked up the anger management website thinking "what the heck does this have to do with bees!?":doh:


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi Doug, 


dnelson said:


> I would love to come up..... But I have a bunch of packages coming....


Yeah,yeah,yeah, how many times have I heard _that_?



dnelson said:


> I actually looked up the anger management website


 LOL ya gotta watch Hambone, he will lead you astray.

Good luck with your plans, with 6 kid at least you will have the help you need right at home.
Sheri


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

Good luck with your plans, with 6 kid at least you will have the help you need right at home.
Sheri[/QUOTE]

Well, they are still young. My 5 yr old was manning the smoker amonth or so ago, and he would be chasing the bees all over the place with the smoke! I don't think the hive got any puffs. He did puff my face instead of the hives a couple times.

I wish I knew about the AHPA a couple of months ago, I would have liked to go to the convention.


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## greenbeekeeping (Feb 13, 2003)

HI Doug. My wife and I are trying to build into full time here in Northern Indiana. We ran 300 hives this year and 400 in 08'. Lord willing it will be 500+ next year. It is not as easy for me as it was a few years ago as we have two little ones and I work full time too. My boy turns three in Jan and my little girl turned 2 yesterday. They are always trying to help. 

How many hives do you have now? 

Matt


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> "I would love to come up there to shake bees! But I have a bunch of packages coming in late March."
> 
> Hi Doug,
> Yeah,yeah,yeah, how many times have I heard _that_?


OK Sheri, he had his chance. I don't have packages coming so can I take his place? I really do need to get up your way and see you.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Barry, we would love for you to head up this way! Better than us going to Chicago, I'd get lost for sure.  Let's make plans.



dnelson said:


> I wish I knew about the AHPA a couple of months ago, I would have liked to go to the convention.


Their annual convention is in early January, Sacramento this year....but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a local chapter somewhere near you that meets monthly and the state spring meetings aren't _that_ far off. 
Sheri


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

greenbeekeeping said:


> HI Doug. My wife and I are trying to build into full time here in Northern Indiana. We ran 300 hives this year and 400 in 08'. Lord willing it will be 500+ next year. It is not as easy for me as it was a few years ago as we have two little ones and I work full time too. My boy turns three in Jan and my little girl turned 2 yesterday. They are always trying to help.
> 
> How many hives do you have now?
> 
> Matt


How far are you from Indy?
Good age for the kids, our oldest is 8 and our youngest is 6 months, 5 boys, 1 girl

I have only kept 5 hives the last few years, but this spring I will be getting at least 50 more, and then whatever i get from spliting my current 5 and swarms next year. I've got enough locations lined up now to hold about 200 colonies easy, I would jump to 100 this year if I had the money. This will be a big jump for us just getting the 50 going. My job worksout pretty well, I can keep at least 25 hives here at work and I work 4-10 hour days. So I will have an extra day each week to work bees.


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

Barry said:


> OK Sheri, he had his chance. I don't have packages coming so can I take his place? I really do need to get up your way and see you.


Does John and Sherri make good cookies or something?! Why is everyone trying to go to there? I would like some cookies or something!

Do you (John and Sherri) sell packages? I need a good reason to give my wife to come up there and see a big operation. We are haveing our 10 year anniversary this May, I wonder if she would be game?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

dnelson said:


> Why is everyone trying to go to there?


Who and where are all these "everyone's?:scratch: Should I be putting up a bunkhouse? With a big oven for cookies?



dnelson said:


> Do you (John and Sherri) sell packages?


 Yes, but I will PM you.
Sheri


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Every once in a while a commercial beekeeper will retire or whatnot and have an auction. I think auctions tend to be an informal gathering of commercial beekeepers.

_I have only kept 5 hives the last few years, but this spring I will be getting at least 50 more, and then whatever i get from spliting my current 5 and swarms next year. _

I hope you have a lot of drawn comb ready to start all those packages on. Starting packages on foundation can be really risky. A good rule of thumb is to double hive numbers every year until you are at your optimal size. The management differences for 5 hives versus 50 or a 100 are staggering.


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## greenbeekeeping (Feb 13, 2003)

Hey Doug. We are at the north of the state in Ligonier. The kids are a great age and are tons of fun. The largest beekeeper that I know of in the southern part of Indiana is Hollow log Honey and I think that they run 200+ hives. They also raise queens. Do you belong to the Indiana State Beekeepers Association? We will have a spring meeting in 2010. You can email me directly if you would like. [email protected]


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

CentralPAguy said:


> Hambone, Tell me that it isn't true.


Guilty as charged. Doing life. 54 counts of stealing girls hearts.


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

i totally agree that there is a big difference between running 5 hives and increasing to 50. people often times dont realize all the equipment and other operating expenses it takes to increase number. In my opinion, i would never hire anybody to come work for me to learn my "tricks of the trade." my family has worked hard for 5 generations to survive in this industry. everything that we have learned over the years has came with a hefty price. just part of the learning experience and that is why we have been in the buisness for almost 110 years.


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## pahvantpiper (Apr 25, 2006)

Sheri,
Do you start shaking packages the 1st of April in Wisconsin or California? 3 years ago I shook some the first week of April in Utah but the last 2 have been too cold. 

Doug, 
You won't always raise a lot of money with bees and won't always raise good bees but beekeeping can help raise good kids. I have 6 of my own ages 7 mo. to 13 years. The love of what you do is the number 1 most important factor governing success, you have to have a passion for it. Extra time and money don't hurt either. Good luck.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

gregstahlman said:


> i totally agree that there is a big difference between running 5 hives and increasing to 50. people often times dont realize all the equipment and other operating expenses it takes to increase number. In my opinion, i would never hire anybody to come work for me to learn my "tricks of the trade." my family has worked hard for 5 generations to survive in this industry. everything that we have learned over the years has came with a hefty price. just part of the learning experience and that is why we have been in the buisness for almost 110 years.


Cold man. Very cold. Could charge for that experience heh. You kinda sound bitter. Oh well me personally, alot of talking to old folks that aren't physically able to take care of their hives got me started. Didn't cost me a thing, got alot of cheap and free gear and bees that way. Usually Ill take them a watermelon, or a turkey for thanksgiving or something. I guess I've adopted a couple of old fellas that way. Then again maybe they were just desperate sideliners with a lot of pity for their bees. Then again, none of them knew much about "the mite"(s).


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Rob we shake them here in Wisconsin. Our goal is April 1, that is when our queens are ordered for. It might be a few days later in the month that we actually start shaking, but sometime in the first week the past few years. We seem to get days warm enough to get it done. We have a fairly early spring nectar flow here so it is tough when the weather is as bad a last year...but then everything was late last year.
Sheri


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

gregstahlman said:


> i totally agree that there is a big difference between running 5 hives and increasing to 50. people often times dont realize all the equipment and other operating expenses it takes to increase number. In my opinion, i would never hire anybody to come work for me to learn my "tricks of the trade." my family has worked hard for 5 generations to survive in this industry. everything that we have learned over the years has came with a hefty price. just part of the learning experience and that is why we have been in the buisness for almost 110 years.


I'm sure alot of people "DO" realize the cost involved with increasing a substantial number of hives. That is why some of us "people" have already been manufacturing our own woodenware and saving money and investing money. My family has also worked hard doing all that they have done as well, most of which are business owners. I didn't just decide this year to go from 5 to 50 hives overnight. This has been 12 years in the making with a lot of study and number crunching, with 6 kids i couldn't have done it any sooner. But for those who care, I have taught beekeeping to over 600 people this past year alone. I don't want to go and work for someone who thinks they have all the secrets and everyone else can rot. I would rather learn some hard lessons myself along the way and make it, then just sit around here afraid to move and do nothing.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

oorah nelson.


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## G B (Nov 6, 2009)

Hello,I am brand new to keeping bees. I have some nucs ordered from J. Clemens next spring. So at this point I have my equipment but no bees in hand, would a newbee be laughed out of the convention? I have family up in Sac and it would make a nice trip. thanks George


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

G B said:


> would a newbee be laughed out of the convention?


I've never been to one of the conventions but I believe you would be very welcomed. We all start out as a newbee.


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

Has anyone been to the ABF Convention in Florida? I was hoping to attend that one but it looks like it might not happen.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

To answer the question about how we know each other, some of the beekeeping families have known each other for generations. I recognize many of the last names, from having come up in conversation at home or at work. For example, Sheri's last name is well known in Wisconsin; and when people hear mine they say.....

Roland and Christian
5th and 6th generation beekeepers, since 1852


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

Roland said:


> To answer the question about how we know each other, some of the beekeeping families have known each other for generations. I recognize many of the last names, from having come up in conversation at home or at work. For example, Sheri's last name is well known in Wisconsin; and when people hear mine they say.....
> 
> Roland and Christian
> 5th and 6th generation beekeepers, since 1852


What do they say?...

I am hoping that our en devours will take off and my kids will continue with it. I would hope out of at least 6 maybe 1 will anyway. Most of them are pretty interested now but they are young (of course I'm not old myself) I hope that it will work out that we can cover different areas of the industry packages, honey, retail etc. and they will find an area they can fit to.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Roland said:


> and when people hear mine they say.....


Hi Roland, They say only good things.
It's nice to see you added your son to the signature.
Sheri


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

dnelson said:


> the ABF Convention in Florida.....might not happen.


????? it isn't always in Florida but it ALWAYS happens I thought. Kinda late to change it.
Oh, you meant _you_ might not happen to make it, lol.
Sheri


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

they say....... ....and you look like your father too. And Christian looks like me. The apples pile up under the tree.

Roland and Christian 
Linden Apiary


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## Riverdog (Mar 15, 2009)

Let me introduce myself.

Chad Ragland
Grand Junction Colorado
970-270-3502

If your ever in town call me. Me casa su casa


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

Nice to meet you Chad.:thumbsup:

I hope someday i will get to Colorado, 6 kids make it tough.
But when I do I will call you


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

(uncloaking) I like this thread. Good comments from all. 

Personally, I learned all the lessons the hardest way possible (sometimes several times over) and do not recommend it. 

At one time I guarded all my 'secrets' carefully, but later as I grew smarter, I figured out that I could post them all on the web in plain view and that few would bother to 'steal' them. Most people like to make their own mistakes.

More power to those who can learn from the mistakes of others'. 

My very best advice? 

Somewhere, near you, is someone who is getting on in years and has it all figured out -- and quite a bit of equipment, locations, etc. The business is making a profit every year and that person is honest. He/she has tax returns to prove it. (Otherwise run as fast as you can).

You could reinvent the wheel and suffer, or just find that someone.

If you do find that someone, listen respectfully, deal honestly, be patient, don't be in a rush to inject your own notions -- and mutually prosper. You will have a priceless friend and a growing, profitable business.


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

I wish i could find that "special someone". Around here there aren't any commercial guys, there is one guy a bit closer to Cincinnati that i haven't met yet. But I don't think his full time job is bees, he dabbles in other things as well.
There are a few hobbyist around here but other than that it's pretty anemic on bees. I am hoping to help that out.
But if you know of someone let me know.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

dnelson said:


> Around here there aren't any commercial guys,...


There may be a reason for that. Perhaps the forage isn't available in enuf abundance to support commercially run bees. I don't know. Just a thought.


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

You're right, around here there is alot of corn to the North but south of US 50 is a fairly good area. We are hoping to have a maximum of 400 maybe 500 colonies but they will be scattered all over the surrounding counties. We do have an abundance of maples, locust, and other hardwoods that are good. I also have permission to keep some outyards at a few large organic fruit farms close by.
We are planning to mix it up with a storefront selling beekeeping supplies as well and eventually start selling our own nucs locally


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## greenbeekeeping (Feb 13, 2003)

Allend.... We would like to find that person too. If we had the right opportunity we would relocate.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Allend, 5 years ago I would have agreed with you whole heartedly. Post CCD, I can not agree at all. I am afraid that much that had gone unchanged in 60 years, has changed dramatically in the last 5 years, to cope with the after effects of miticides, and CCD. Although the compounded experiences of 157 years helps a lot, it's now a whole new ball game. What did Darwin say?? It is not the survival of the fittest, but rather survival of those that can adapt the quickest. 

I believe the quote is from a Clint Eastwood character :
"Improvise, Adapt, Overcome"

Roland


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_My very best advice? 

Somewhere, near you, is someone who is getting on in years and has it all figured out -- _

Almost sounds like a former commercial beekeeper in the Alberta Canada area is getting lonely, or wishing he could share his knowledge of bees with someone to follow in his footsteps.

Thankfully for us, he has a website and selflessly shares a ton of his wisdom to anyone willing to spend a little time reading (listening). In this internet age, he is near you - as close as your computer.
www.honeybeeworld.com


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## dnelson (May 19, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> _My very best advice?
> 
> Somewhere, near you, is someone who is getting on in years and has it all figured out -- _
> 
> ...


I'm not to quick at the riddles, I would have been in the phone book for months trying to find out who he is talking about:doh:


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Going on 30 years now in the business and I'm always learning new things. It was my parents who showed me a lot of the tricks of the trade. Of coarse they can tell of some great storys about beekeeping before the mites. 
They alway told me that beekeeping wasn't a job it was a life style. It took me almost 20 years to figure that one out for myself. :doh:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Roland said:


> I believe the quote is from a Clint Eastwood character :
> "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome"
> 
> Roland


Harry also said, "A man has to know his limitations."


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Isn't expansion more like going from 50 to 100, then losing 60 during the winter, then compensating by adding another 100 colonies and then not getting any honey, and then dropping back to 80 colonies total after the next winter. 
This is my method: Purchase 50 queens the first year of planned expansion and have most superseded (not much honey). The next year add 100 packages and have most build up just enough to insure death during the coming winter. 
I'm with the other guy who wants to make all the mistakes the hard way because of the excitement of failing on my own and the shear joy of losing money>
The funny thing is - I have gotten really good at two things: raising queens and killing colonies. Looking at the bright side, I can get better at raising queens but I have already perfected the whole winter die off part.
One last thing, are you supposed to get enough money from honey to pay for the sugar?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Pay for the sugar regardless if you have the money or not. Then they don't die in the winter, then they make you honey or you have bees to sell etc... You need to give them what they need first then they will take care of you. Take care of the bees first. That is the problem of growing, once you have 100 hives you need 60 pounds of sugar to feed each one of them. So that's 6000 pounds. If you only have 20 hives that would be 1200 pounds. The day job can probably support 20 hives. The day job probably can't support 100 hives. At some point, sooner rather than later bees need to support themselves. If bees need feed then feed them, if they need a varroa treatment do it, if they need new queens do that etc... I always place the bees needs first. Dead colonies don't make a lot of honey, or bees to sell.

Jean-Marc


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I think the kind of expansion discussed here requires a lot of time and some new toys. The feeding you talk about is my number one priority now. I purchased a 275gal tote and pump so I can fit feeding in with a full time day job. Some say that you shouldn't have to feed, but tell that to last years dead packages, which I did feed, but apparently not enough. 
It is so much work to run 100 colonies or more and a normal job. My hat is off to those of you that can do it all. I wonder if one runs fast enough in circles if he can catch up to himself.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Do what I did; feed, at 2 am, in the rain, whenever you can. Put it to em. If they rob, minimize, it, keep feeding.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

jean-marc said:


> Pay for the sugar regardless if you have the money or not. Then they don't die in the winter, then they make you honey or you have bees to sell etc... You need to give them what they need first then they will take care of you. Take care of the bees first. That is the problem of growing, once you have 100 hives you need 60 pounds of sugar to feed each one of them. So that's 6000 pounds. If you only have 20 hives that would be 1200 pounds. The day job can probably support 20 hives. The day job probably can't support 100 hives. At some point, sooner rather than later bees need to support themselves. If bees need feed then feed them, if they need a varroa treatment do it, if they need new queens do that etc... I always place the bees needs first. Dead colonies don't make a lot of honey, or bees to sell.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Jean-Marc...60 lbs of sugar is more then a lb a week of patties per hive...you must have some hungry bees. My hives take about 13 lbs per year for spring and fall feeding. Of course we have a great flow in spring, summer and fairly good in early fall so the only feeding I need to do is in early spring on build up and fall after the first frost.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Alpha: 

My bees seem to eat wheather they are hungry or not. But seriously I was speaking about using the sugar for liquid feeding. I'm assuming HVH isn't big enough too purchase a liquid tanker of either HFCS or sucrose. The lesson in feeding is that if bees need 60 pounds and you only feed 59 pounds then you've just wasted a huge effort and resources. Personnally I try to go overboard in that I would feed 70 pounds if they need 60. The extra feed is good insurance.

Jean-Marc


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I fed about 1/3 to 1/2 of what you suggested. These were packages and I am certain the lack of feed was a huge mistake. Two colonies on my property were newbee colonies from the same source and she fed them like crazy. They built up really well. 
I didn't have much drawn foundation so I gave three frames of drawn comb to each of my colonies and probably about two gallons of 2:1. This is called learning the hard way. I think it cost me about $6,000 dollars for the packages, $600 in sugar, a bunch for woodenware and enough time to have another part time job. In the end I will likely have an extra 20 or 30 colonies. That is certainly a mistake I will never make again. If I could spend time with a commercial beek I certainly would, by my life is way to crazy right now for that.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

HVH:

Buying the tote and pump will make life wasy easier. When I started out this was the most valuable tool I have ever purchased. I could mix and distribute syrup relatively quickly. Many years I have feed 40 kg of sugar to doubles after cranberry pollination here. Cranberries coincide with our major honeyflow. Unfortunately the bogs are kinda large and genreally speaking because of the lay of the land there is little forage around for the bees. Sure some years they make honey but generally speaking it's hard on bees. This pollination finishes in mid july and colonies are fairly strong but there is no more honeyflow. I've often fed one 40 kg bag of sugar per double from the end of cranberries until winter set in. That's 88 pounds of sugar. It's a lot but the hives are very heavy and there is no risk of starvation. I bet those 20-30 hives that you lost last season to starvation were amongst your strongest ones. The good news about feeding colonies to the max is that those resources are not wasted. Colonies don't starve and the bees will utilize that feed next spring to make more bees. If it's a cool ,wet spring the bees still have feed to make more bees. If you feel colonies have too much weight in the spring the extra feed can go to make increases. So that sugar is never wasted, it's a resource that is available to the bees anytime they want to use it and it's stored in way that is easyt for the bees to use, in combs.

On a lighter side if you think you are busy with 100 hives, may I suggest you keep the day job increases to 400-500 hives. After you've done that sell off the extra 300-400 and running the 100 hives will seem like a vacation. The learning curve is kinda steep but with extra experience you just get more efficient. The guys that do can become commercial, the guys that can't stay at the hobby level.

Jean-Marc


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks Jean-marc,

I didn't mean to hijack this thread, but by sharing a few stupid mistakes I just wanted to illustrate how much pain and suffering could be avoided by spending time with a commercial operation. I am not in a position to do that myself, but can testify to the fact that it could have saved me a lot of time and money and I would certainly have more colonies now if I had. Every time I read a post from the commercial guys/gals I am reminded of how little I know on the practical side. Sure, I am an avid reader and understand the science better than most, but a philosophical understanding is no substitute for experience. I have been a hobby beekeeper for about 10 years and think my personal goal must have been to make every mistake in the book. And even when you do everything by the book, you come to learn that the bees didn't read that book. Maybe they read "Humans for dummies". I just got into 16 local stores and am scared to death of what that means. Going from Farmers Markets to store shelves is a big change. There is all the insurance, labeling, UPC codes, spread sheets, deliveries, display cabinet contruction, safety wraps, shelf life considerations, eye appeal, art work, honey house construction, book keeping, new product development, sourcing supplies.......
This is surely going to be a ton of work and do truly feel sorry for my wife


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

To HVH,
I don't know of many comm. beekeeper that produce and retail all there products. When you get to comm. size you retail very little. Our best costomers are the hobbiest that only run 100 or less hives. I have a costomer that runs 150 hives, but he bought over 10 ton to keep up with his costomers. 
If you can sell honey and have a good clientell why work a lot of bees. I sold most of my honey this last year for right around $1.65 a lb. Good money for wholesale. Now if you can buy for that price and retail for $6.50 a lb, why would you work a 100 hives to make your honey.

Ron


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

jean-marc said:


> Alpha:
> 
> My bees seem to eat wheather they are hungry or not. But seriously I was speaking about using the sugar for liquid feeding. I'm assuming HVH isn't big enough too purchase a liquid tanker of either HFCS or sucrose. The lesson in feeding is that if bees need 60 pounds and you only feed 59 pounds then you've just wasted a huge effort and resources. Personnally I try to go overboard in that I would feed 70 pounds if they need 60. The extra feed is good insurance.
> 
> Jean-Marc


You are right Jean-Marc...I feed um as much as they will take and now pull early so they have two to three extra weeks of good flow in the fall to pack out. A little less honey harvested, but better bees.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

The Honey Householder said:


> To HVH---Now if you can buy for that price and retail for $6.50 a lb, why would you work a 100 hives to make your honey.
> 
> Ron


You are correct and I do purchase a lot of honey from local commercial guys. Learning from a commercial operation would have been an experience more for bee management than running a commercial operation.

I want to get to 500 colonies and start the season with almonds like a lot of guys I know. California is right over the border from Nevada so I hope to get an early infusion of cash. After almonds I can place bees on more nectar sources and harvest niche crops. Having my own bees just gives me a lot more control over quality and variety. I currently pay $1.50/lb for honey but have a difficult time controlling the way it is processed. Being a small business allows more control of the processing, including harvesting different crops at different times and even separating light from dark in a given run. One of my commercial sources sells honey that is always cloudy and one barrel even had a mouse in it. I just can't afford to abdicate my QC, it is too risky. And probably the quintessential reason, is that I can place my bees in such a way to stalk the shelves with truly 'local honey'. I sold about one bottle of California orange blossom honey to every 25 bottles of local honey at the farmers market. People want local honey because they believe it helps with hay fever.


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