# Feral colony sampling



## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

This idea came from D. Murrell's feral beekeeping thread.

Anyone willing, please select an area one mile by one mile (or kilometer, if you'd prefer). Locate any feral colonies present within the area you select, and keep track of how many colonies are present. Then, please post your results.

Include:

1) The location, as precisely as you can. Include the state and county, and maybe the directions to the nearest town (or the town if you're doing one in town).

2) The number of unmanaged colonies you locate in that square mile.

3) The date of the census.

4) Some general description of the landscape, such as "wooded," "prairie," "town," "old field," etc.

Try to select areas that are representative of your vicinity. For example, do not pick a square mile because you happen to know it has the most unmanaged bee colonies around you.

Maybe D. Murrell can incorporate some of this information into his BMaps, too?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Geesh, what an undertaking.

I know of many bee trees and unmanaged colonies all over town, either from people that would not pay to have them removed, or my reluctance to mess with them. I could not track them all, there are too many.

We have a little town inside of the city limits that is completely surrounded by our city. It's only about a square mile in size. I have removed probably six colonys and a dozen swarms from it in the last three years and I am not the only bee remover doing it. I know of two bee trees and three houses with bees in it right now and I am sure that there are more that I don't know about there in Beecentral.

I see no way of gathering and keeping up with all that information for him. Sorry.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

"Geesh, what an undertaking." -Bullseye Bill

I agree. The problem, though, is that many beekeepers like to throw around estimates of how many unmanaged colonies exist in the U.S. without actually doing any sampling. The most recent projection I've read is up to 100 million unmanaged colonies, as opposed to about 2 million managed colonies.

If that's the case, we should all have a good dose of "feral" genetics showing up in our managed colonies.

Anyway, it sounds like you've already done much of the work, BB:

Location: Town in Wichita, Kansas, area.

Number of colonies located: 5 (2 bee trees, three houses with bee in them, probably more unknown).

Date: January 2007.

Landscape: Town.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I'll provide another example from an area I know well.

Location: One mile north of Brookings, South Dakota.

Number of unmanaged colonies located: 0.

Date: August 2006.

Landscape: Agricultural fields, about 40 homes, and several shelterbelts.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I hope you understood what I was trying to get across to you.

A. There are more colonies in the area than I can count.
B. There are more people that are pulling bees out of that area than just me.
C. There are no managed colonies in that area.
D. They are repopulating the area faster than they can be taken out, making it impossible to keep track of.
E. I don't live in the area to be able to even try to keep track of them.

I have been interested in the reports that I have read here about the lack of wild bees around the country. I am quite glad that I happen to live in an area that is booming with unmanaged bees.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Bullseye Bill:

To some extent, I did understand what you were intending. I wonder if you really understand what I'm intending.

I'm not looking for a complete count of all unmanaged colonies here. This isn't "scientific." What I'm hoping with this is, 1) to give more beekeepers an understanding of how many "feral" colonies are really present, and, 2) to give those who try such methods some understanding of how difficult reaching estimates can be.

It's easy to throw out numbers, but more difficult to justify how those numbers were obtained.

At the same time, this "survey" might give some indications of the differences in population densities across different parts of the country. If you [generally, not "Bullseye Bill" specifically] don't wish to give it a go, don't.

To answer some of your points more specifically, BB:

A. That I doubt. I've been to Wichita. I've even done a cut-out in Wichita. And I can promise you that in any given square mile, I could count the total number of unmanaged colonies. I might not be able to find every one of them. I might not even try to find all of them. But I could count them.

If they were that numerous, every house would have to have multiple colonies living within its walls, every tree would have to be loaded with colonies, etc.

B. I don't doubt that. That doesn't mean you couldn't reach some conclusions about how many colonies were present. You posted how many colonies you had removed in the past few years, and how many colonies you know exist now, so you have some idea of how many colonies are in the area. For example, if you have knowledge of 5 colonies and you've fairly familiar with the area, you could assume there aren't really 100 colonies in that area.

C. Really? No managed colonies? What happened to all of them? I've been to Wichita; I get there every once in a while, and I've seen Langstroth hives around the Wichita area, even very close to the periphery of the city. Are they all gone now?

D. "Swarms" are not the same as "unmanaged colonies." If what you say is true, you should put out bait hives in the area and go into business selling bees.

Obviously, any "survey" is taken at one point in time. Things change. Unless you have some idea of a baseline, you can't make comparisons between the current situation and conditions in the past.

Maybe pick an area where you DO live, so you have some idea how many might be present?  

Seriously, though, if you're not interested in giving it a try, why discourage it or even bother responding? I was hoping some of those who attempt to chase down and reclaim unmanaged colonies might give this a try -- they have the experience to do a pretty nice job of it. So far, though, no one other than myself really seems to give it much of a try to even get rough estimates of how many unmanaged colonies live in their area. That surprizes me, given that some many who post on this board profess to be interested in "feral" bees.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>this "survey" might give some indications of the differences in population densities across different parts of the country. If you [generally, not "Bullseye Bill" specifically] don't wish to give it a go, don't.

I would like to participate, I just don't think it is possible to come up with any realistic numbers.

>A. That I doubt. I've been to Wichita. I've even done a cut-out in Wichita. And I can promise you that in any given square mile, I could count the total number of unmanaged colonies.

I doubt you as well. To think that you could, or even have time to, traipse through every-ones yard to count bees is unrealistic.

>For example, if you have knowledge of 5 colonies and you've fairly familiar with the area, you could assume there aren't really 100 colonies in that area.

There could be five or fifty, I couldn't give any accurate number.

>C. Really? No managed colonies? What happened to all of them? I've been to Wichita; I get there every once in a while, and I've seen Langstroth hives around the Wichita area,

Almost none. It is illegal to have hives in the city during the spring and summer months. I know most of the keepers around here and only know of two hives in the city limits besides the ones I keep at my house. I haven't seen any bee yards around the city since Joe moved to Ne.

>D. "Swarms" are not the same as "unmanaged colonies." If what you say is true, you should put out bait hives 

Why not wait until I get calls and get paid to remove them?

>Seriously, though, if you're not interested in giving it a try, why discourage it or even bother responding? 

I really am not trying to discourage others from participating, it just seems to be an unrealistic endeavor to try to count them. Like trying to count gnats flying in the air.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Fellows,

I'll give it a try. There's a state park close to me, within walking distance, that I would like to take a closer look at. 

Question #1: What clues should I be looking for. I have never seen a feral hive. For that matter up until two years ago I thought that bumble bees where honey bees. Now I know better.

#2: I was thinking about putting out a plate of honey as bait and then following the ladies back to their hive. This of course means that my previous post on how to beeline needs to be answered first.

#3: Any other suggestions?

Thanks,
Albert


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Ok,
A lot of fellows helped me out on beelineing so I've made plans with the wife and kids to give it a go. I'll report back next week on this subject.

Thanks,
Albert


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

"I doubt you as well. To think that you could, or even have time to, traipse through every-ones yard to count bees is unrealistic." -Bullseye Bill

I don't have to count the bees, only the colonies.  Seriously, though, how do you suppose scientific studies work? Just take estimates, and call it "good?" Somewhere, someone is willing to do just such things. I am. I have done such things, and I continue to do such things.

I may not be counting bee colonies in urban areas, but I have done sampling of other insects.

Besides, why consider only urban areas? Why not try it in rural areas, where you don't find as many houses?

"I would like to participate, I just don't think it is possible to come up with any realistic numbers." -Bullseye Bill

But you already DID come up with realistic numbers. You reported that you had removed 6 colonies and 12 swarms from the area over the last three years. That would be 6 colonies per year, assuming all the swarms were successful. Let's just say, hypothetically, that two other beekeepers were removing just as many colonies and swarms from the area as you were. That would translate to roughly 18 colonies in that square mile.

"There could be five or fifty, I couldn't give any accurate number." -Bullseye Bill

I think you could narrow that down a little more. Fifty? Do you really think there are 50 unmanaged colonies in the area you described? That would be extremely high, based on previously published surveys, and where would they all come from? You said there are supposed to be no managed colonies in Wichita, so they must be coming from unmanaged colonies in Wichita or from managed colonies just outside Wichita.

I believe you could pinpoint the number of hives much more closely if you were inclined. Like I said before, I've been to Wichita. I've seen the number of colonies along the highways around Wichita. There were plenty of managed colonies very, very close to Wichita. (Unless all those boxes are unmanaged, abandoned hives, in which case I need to make a trip back down to Wichita with a trailer.  ) I've never seen large "yards" around Wichita like I see up here, but I've seen plenty of Langstroth hives.

"Why not wait until I get calls and get paid to remove them?" -Bullseye Bill

Fine. That should still give you some idea of how many unmanaged colonies exist in any given square mile around your area.

The problem is, beekeepers on this board seem to want it both ways: first, "feral" colonies are rare and precious -- protect knowledge of such colonies at all costs; then, "feral" colonies far outnumber managed colonies and likely already have the genetics to be "resistant" to Varroa. If so many unmanaged colonies exist throughout the U.S., why try to protect information on where those colonies are? If colonies are scarce, why claim that densities are as great or greater than has been reported as the highest densities?

"Like trying to count gnats flying in the air." -Bullseye Bill

Ah, yes. I've done some of that. Seriously. Sampling methods exist for doing just that. However, unmanaged bee colonies exist at far lower population densities than what you're describing, and counting colonies in given areas is really fairly easy.

Try breaking it up into pieces: one city block is roughly 1/144 of one square mile. Try counting all the unmanaged colonies in one city block. Move over and count the next block. And the next. And so on. Instead of sampling one square mile, maybe sample an area 3 blocks by 3 blocks (1/16 square mile). Extrapolation can still give some idea of how many unmanaged colonies will be in an area. As long as the area is random, counting enough of those areas will still give a pretty good estimate of numbers.

Albert:

Give it a try. Hopefully, you'll have some fun at it. And you might get some idea of how many unmanaged colonies live in your area. Don't sweat the details; this isn't scientific, by any means.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

It is easier than all that.
There's less wandering around looking for
hives than you might think.

And it can be "scientific", if you want it to be,
and are willing to put some effort into it.

Do some bee-lining, and make no attempt to find
the actual colonies until you have recorded 
the flight vectors of some large number of
released bees (maybe 100 bees total?).

If you use any GPS, you have a very accurate
waypoint from which you released each bee, 
and you have a fair-to-good estimate of the 
point at which you lost sight of the bee,
which you can walk to and mark as another
waypoint.

So, for each bee, you have a Longitude/Latitude
where you released the bee (x1, y1), and a
Longitude/Latitude pretty near where you lost
sight of the bee (x2, y2). If you have another
bee that appeared to be flying in the same
general direction, you can do some math to
extend the vectors to their intersection, as
follows: 

Do the following or each bee flight vector:

A = y2 - y1
B = x1 - x2
C = A*x1 + B*y1

To find the intersection of any two bee vectors,
you take the A, B, and C for each and find "D":

D = A1*B2 - A2*B1

And the intersection of the two flight vectors 
(a possible hive location) is:
x intersection scalar = (B2 * C1 - B1 * C2) / D
y intersection scalar = (A1 * C2 - A2 * C1) / D

In all of the above:
"x" is always a longitude
and "y" is always a latitude

And you can map all the data on any mapping
system. If you don't have a mapping system,
you can plug your longitudes and latitudes into
http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/map?form=google 
and make a Google map.

So, all you really need to do is capture bees
with a beelining box and release them from
a reasonable spread of locations. Finding the
hives (or counting them) is a matter of simply
mapping enough data from enough bees.

When you have 3 bees all flying from a 
bee-lining box from different locations
to the same general area, that area's 
nearly certain to contain a hive.

[ January 26, 2007, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: Jim Fischer ]


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Jim,

Now I understand how the box is used!

Nice geometry lesson too. Something real world to make the kids do after todays adventure.

Thanks,
Albert


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I'll confess that I'm surprized that some of the members of this forum who spend large amounts of time "hunting" unmanaged, or "feral," colonies haven't responded to this one. I hoped some of you would have some records of where you had searched for unmanaged colonies and how many you had found in those areas, and might be willing to share some of that information.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--I'll confess that I'm surprized that some of the members of this forum who spend large amounts of time "hunting" unmanaged, or "feral," colonies haven't responded to this one.--(Kieck)

Ferals are my gig, but have been distracted else ware lately.









Although I do some hunting, I mostly have been setting out traps. The bees seem to do a better job of finding me than I do them.


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## Baloo (Feb 28, 2006)

I am a taking GIS courses in school. For a project I would LOVE to do something with bees. I am still in the abstract phase of what I want to do. I have acess to ArcGIS software in the computerlab (powerful map software). I was thinking mabye swarm & feral locations, weight, date, time, photos, range, etc. I could link swarm times with precipitation. I might even be able to send samples to the lab at TX A&M for genetic testing. I might need help/ want to team up with this endeavor. More info as things progress.
Cheers!


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Sorry Guys!

This weekend was a bust. It must have dropped down into the 40's, breezy, damp, and cloudy. We didn't even try going out, so maybe this weekend we'll try. 

I'll keep y'all posted

Albert


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Kieck,

I like the idea. But live in a area that's very poor for feral bees. I've only known of two feral hives in three decades. There just isn't the climate, habitat or habitation for bees here.

It took me three years to beeline a single colony of bees located in a rubble field, 3000' below the canyon rim. It was over grown with aspens so thick, it was almost impossible to get into it. I narrowed the area down to about an half acre but never did actually find or see the colony. Unfortunately, they disappeared the fourth year

Beelining was a great way to get out and about. I never would have hiked down there for another reason.

But I'd need snowshoes to do it now! Think I will try again in about 5 months.

Regards
Dennis


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I know what you mean, Dennis. I've found much the same thing around here. While I haven't searched specifically for honey bees for that many years, I have been collecting insects intensively for almost three decades around here. I've found numerous bumble bee colonies, even, but have found only one unmanaged honey bee colony around this area to date.

Kansas was a different story, when I lived there for a few years. I came across several unmanaged colonies, and I don't doubt that the density is much higher there than it is here.

I'll be interested to hear what you find if you give it a try again this spring. Keep us posted, please!


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

It sounds like a great research project and the end data would be great to have. My biggest issue would be how to over come trespassing laws in a full square mile?


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

I've been beelining for several months now. Most nice days I go out on my lunch hour.

I've found quite a few of them now.

This is big fun. I bought one of Jim Fisher's Bee-lining boxes and it works great. 

I use Google maps to map all my results.

I'm looking forward to making a bait station that I can hang on a street sign. I figure most people won't mess with it there and I can bee-line on most any street corner. The old Winter Park neighborhoods are full of old oak trees with suitable cavities in them. I bet there is one on almost every block.

Albert is not too far away, maybe sometime we can go out trekking together.


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Great thread running here.Am impatiently waiting on warm spring weather to try finding more wild colonies.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Getting permission to cross others' land is easier, I imagine, for those of us out here in "no-bee land" than for many of the rest of you. Around here, you simply look up the name of the person who owns the square mile (our section roads all run on one-mile miles, run straight north-south or east-west, and frequently one person or a couple own a square mile), and ask permission.

In a more populated area, I try knocking on doors and asking. Often, people are more than willing to grant access to their property if all you're doing is looking for bees. They will even tell you about any they've found -- although these turn out to be yellowjackets as often as they do honey bees. And, they may ask you to remove unmanaged colonies if you find them.

At very least, you might give them a little education about honey bee colonies. If they refuse to let you on to their property, you probably don't want to go there anyway.









The problem of getting permission is part of the reason I suggested looking in smaller areas. For instance, if you search a 3-block by 3-block area (9 square blocks), you have to ask a lot of people for permission, but it's a lot fewer than if you searched 12 blocks square (144 square blocks, or one square mile). Nine square blocks, but the way, is 1/16 square mile.

I hope you post at least some general numbers that you find here, Troy and Power Napper. I'm looking forward to seeing what other beekeepers around the country find.

I'll do some more around here this spring, too, and post what I find.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Around here alot of the larger properties have been broken down into "micro farms" so you would be doing alot of knocking in a square mile. I do gather this type of information when doing a removal as I already have permission to be on the place. The problem with that is the consentration will be higher than normal due to the colony I am removing casting swarms. I like the city block idea, but our blocks are not square and there would be an issue with measurement. I do hope to do some inner-city bee lining when the warmer weather hits.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Troy,

Sure would like to get together with you on that!
Give me a few weeks practice first though!
Albert


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## Baloo (Feb 28, 2006)

I am currently learning ARCgis I want to help!!! 
All I would need to know would be coordinates of the hives and could show the forage range of the hives etc... Feral bees are the salvation of beekeeping!
cheers!!!


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## Edward G (Aug 26, 2006)

Are Jim Fischer's bee-lining boxes a new design or something? I have a lining box that's an antique. I actually haven't tried using it because I thought that I would only find bees from somebody's outyard.

I think it sounds really fun, and I'd like to give it a try when the snow melts.

I know of a tree that has been home to several swarms in the past 5 years. One swarm dies out, then another finds the tree the next year.

I actually thought there were no more "wild bees." Sounds like this is a common misconception. I'd like to find some around here.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I can't claim that there hasn't been a 3-chamber
box ever before, but I've never seen one in any
of the collections I've looked at.

But my theory is that most all of the bee-lining 
boxes that have survived as antiques survived
because they were built, used once or twice, 
found to be useless or impractical, and then set
aside and forgotten. 

My Dad has modified "my" design quite a bit in
his quest to make them less complicated to make,
so its not really "my design" any more. (He makes
them, Betterbee sells them.)

> I think it sounds really fun

I think its a blast.


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

The more i have read on this topic, the more ideas i have. I think that catching the swarms are the easiest route, but if there is a feral colony in the National behind me, i suspect the loggers will know where as that they cover that ground more than others. The problem here would be the fact that most non-beekeepers refer to the various yellowjacket varieties here as, "bees" and i would be very upset to go miles uphill to step in a yellowjacket nest.

Since the valleys below me have a yearly invasion of pollenation bees brought in during April, i think i want to scout out feral leftovers as well. The bees are in the apples at prime swarm time. I will poke around this spring and see what i can come up with and answer back.

CS


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>(He makes
them, Betterbee sells them.)

Jim, what's the catalog number? I can't find them in the Betterbee catalog nor the online catalog. I thought Brushy Mt had them, but they aren't in the online catalog or the new catalog. I keep meaning to buy one. I tried the other day, but Brushy Mt didn't have them anymore.


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## David Stewart (Jan 22, 2005)

CSShaw,
Around here loggers are an excellent source for ferals. If they notice a colony in advance, they just leave it standing but occasionally they fell one without noticing the colony. If they know you are willing to come get it, they will call and either leave it where it is or skid it out to the road for you. Old timer down the road generally gets five to ten colonies a year that way. Pays them off with a jar of honey.

David


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I've got some data from last summer that I'll post here. It will provide a shameless bump up, too.

Location: 8 miles west, 3 miles north of Estelline, South Dakota.

Date: Summer 2006

Number of unmanaged colonies: 0 (one square mile)

Landscape: Agricultural fields, wildlife production area with wetlands, trees around the wetlands, and prairie.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Some more data from last summer:

Location: 6 miles south of Brookings, SD

Date: Summer 2006

Number of unmanaged colonies: 0 (in 1/16 square mile)

Landscape: grassland with woodland along creek

I'm really surprised that none of the guys out chasing "ferals" has enough data to post something here. From all the claims that have been made about numbers of colonies per square mile in other threads, I was expecting someone else would have a few numbers to post.


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*I will try here, you can correct me if wrong imput*

Location: NF Okanogan, area: MP marker 2 plus 8/10ths mile.
Washington State.

Method: Open honey, 

Date: 2005

Indicators of honeybee population in June, July, August.

No honeybee activity noted by method.

August, 2005, one solitary honeybee on Mullein flower, no other bee noted.

Same location, March 2006.

Dark bees of unknown origin at door of house, in snow pack. Early foraging or cleansing flights, direction of origin unknown. Temps in 50s, colony location presumed to be within one mile of find.

May, 2006:
Foundation (PF100 ML) attracts scout be prior to bees at this location. Bees dark in color, arrival twenty minutes after opening foundation package. Location unknown, origins unknow, pressumed feral, one colony of dark colored bees in square mile, no attemps to locate said colony.

Chrissy


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Round Top, Greene County, New York.
Within a 2 mile radius of my home yard @ 1100' in elevation (home) (Lat: 42.28; Long: 74.06)
Rural w/ little agricultural, mostly wooded with NYS Forest Preserve land.
Elevation: 230 to 4,000 feet
Managed Colonies: (20) All mine in (2) yards
Unmanaged Colonies: (2) or (3) from observations at feeders and line of flights

Swarms other than from my hives: (0)
Swarm Removal Calls over the last 3 years: (0)

I did catch a few swarms over the years when there was another keeper’s yard about a mile from mine. Since, he has stopped there has not been a free swarm.


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

1) Arkansas, White County, Griffithville

2) 3 feral colonies, so far.

3) 16 April 2007 Checking for colonies for the fun of it.

4) In town, currently no local beeks that I'm aware of.


Can we do more than one area?


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Very, very nice! I'm impressed!

notaclue -- any idea what size area (approximately) you sampled? And, absolutely, do as many areas as you'd like.

Thanks for sharing!


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