# Cathedral hives? Pros and cons



## Eikel

Do you have a pic or link? With tongue in cheek, I have hives at a local convent, no cons there to my knowledge.


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## gtwarren1966

Looks better than a top bar hive but you still have to crush and strain and the bees have to build that wax all over again. Seems inefficient to me and harder on bees which is why I'll never have a top bar hive.


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## lemmje

I just googled it, hadn't heard of them before. 


http://www.backyardhive.com/the_cathedral_hive_the_next_evolution_in_top_bar_hive_design/


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## g1nko

Take anything I say with a dose of skepticism because 1) I have nothing to compare against; and 2) I'm going on Week 3 of having bees.

That said, I really like my Cathedral Hive. 

Pros:

Bees seem to stay put on the comb, rather than the bar, and don't get squished when you put them back together.
No cross-combing. All the comb so far is straight as straight can be.
Twice the volume of a traditional top bar hive.
The combs are secured on three sides, vs just the top.
The bees seem to really like the "bee superhighway." It's always jammed with bees moving back and forth.


Cons:

Price, unless you build it yourself.
Not very widespread; you're sort of on your own.
Backyardhives.com is terrible at responding to questions. I've sent three questions regarding Cathedral Hive management and received zero responses.


I built my own for about $100: 

Instead of using solid pine for the hive body, I used laminated pine stair treads from the orange place. They cost about $11 each and I needed 6 of them. They're solid pine under the laminate, but it's finger-joined smaller pieces. If they're sturdy enough for day-to-day use as stair treads, I don't think there will be any issues as a beehive. Using the stair treads reduced the cost of the hive body from over $300 to get solid pine from the local lumber yard to just $60. That was pretty significant.

The bars were milled from 2 construction-grade 2x6s. I think they were $6/each. Even with discards because of mistakes or wood quality, they yielded all 24 bars for the hive, plus 3 extra. 

The double-strength glass was expensive-ish. It's not available at orange place, the blue place, or the local hardware store; I had to go to a glass supply to get it. I put in two windows and I think it cost about $24 for both pieces.

I had to build 4 jigs: 1 for gluing the body; 1 for cutting the holes in the top bars; 1 for cutting the angled sides on the top bar sections; and 1 for gluing up the top bars. These were made from plywood or MDF I had around the shop. I suppose I should include them in the cost, but since it was hanging around, I didn't. 

Under Construction:















Finished product:


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## Delta 21

Your posts have got thinking of how to convert my top bars to cathedrals. Twice the volume is a motivating factor.

Kudos on building it yourself. And I echo your frustration at the parent company.I had decided on top bar hives prior for my backyard but admit I swallowed more of their hype than I normally do. Me being new to bees, they sure did make it sound purdy.

I would be interested in your write-up and any pics you have on constructing the top bars. How you configured your cutting and glueing jigs, ect. 

What is the estimated weight on a comb of honey out of a cathedral hive? 

THIS is the next upgrade!


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## Yunzow

I think this is a good consideration thank you.


gtwarren1966 said:


> Looks better than a top bar hive but you still have to crush and strain and the bees have to build that wax all over again. Seems inefficient to me and harder on bees which is why I'll never have a top bar hive.


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## g1nko

The first step on cutting the top bars was to dimension the thickness of the 2x6x8s 1.375 inches then ripping them into strips 1.375 wide. That gave me a number of 1.375x1.375x8 strips. Then it was just a matter of setting up a stop on the mitre saw to cut bars at 30 degrees over and over and over and over.

Drilling the holes and the slots for the miters was simple, but again, monotonous. There are two jigs pictured on backyard hives. I'll defer to them for the pics.

The next step required cutting the tapers. I didn't want to do this on a band saw as it seemed pretty dangerous/inaccurate. I used my table saw. This was supposed to be a prototype jig for cutting the tapers on the top bars but a) it worked well and b) I was lazy so I used it to cut all the top bars. If I build another hive, I will make this jig again with sturdier materials and a handle because this one is pretty tired.









Initially the left side of the jig was higher, but the first cut removed the material. The 1/8" flat edge on the top bar left just enough of a lip on the jig that the bars were held securely. The jig slides along the table saw fence and keeps your fingers out of the way. The couple of times the material slipped was because of operator error, not any issues with the jig. There's a cut bar pictured in place in the jig. The saw blade is positioned so it just clears the top of the material, but not the jig. The material starts out 1.375 square, but after cutting the tapers, the finished piece is the required 1.375 wide x 1.25 high because math.

Here is one of the 2 jigs I built for gluing the top bars:









The support bars are just slightly narrower then the slots cut in the top bars for the splines. The process was apply glue to the ends with a brush; set the bars in place making sure the ventilation slot was pointing up; clamp; insert splines; let dry for 30 minutes; lather, rinse, and repeat. The jig is varnished around the glue joints to make sure I didn't glue the bars to jig. Using 90-degree ends on the support bars opened up that joint so there was a little wiggle room for a tight fit each time. Using two of these jigs was the only way to go to glue up all these bars in an accurate, repeatable way.

As far as supporting the bars, there's a lip inside the hive on which the bars sit. You can see it pretty clearly in this picture:









Individually, yes, the bars are a little tippy when they're empty. As a group, however, with the follower board in place, the bars are extremely stable. In addition, as the bees start adding comb and weight, they change the center of gravity. They're very stable individually even with the comb built only about half-way down.


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## Oldtimer

Looks a little more bee friendly than a standard TBH.

I like the holes on the top bars which save the bees having to make them in the comb. Bigger comb area held more stably than a standard top bar.

Absence of cross combing I'm sure due to the design of the wedge.

Actually I've figured out what it is, it's a cross between a TBH and a Sun hive .


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## Delta 21

g1nko said:


> The first step.......


:thumbsup:

Oh baby ! The gears are already turning.


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## msl

Oldtimer said:


> Actually I've figured out what it is, it's a cross between a TBH and a Sun hive .


my thought is (like most hives) is it all marketing
Not a fan, they should just inlay some copper wire while they are at it. The world does not need a more costly top bar hive, it blows my mind when people pay more for a KTBH or Warre then a lang 


> Seems inefficient to me and harder on bees which is why I'll never have a top bar hive.


harder on the bees verse a massively unnaturally large hive,...odd point of view 
inefficient? perhaps, but a few KTBHs can give me more then my family can use, and efficiency has costs 
Costs me $25-$35 to set up full hive, Crush and strain wax productions costs are around 2 lbs per 8lbs honey harvest, Costco honey is $4 a lb...
run the numbers on 2 langs and an extractor + storage space for empty gear and see how many years it takes a lang to catch up on ROI.

In short just because I can't drive a tractor threw it, doesn't mean I won't keep a small garden, but I also don't expect the same yields per of big AG either.... But that doesn't mean I won't add a few langs to the fleet when the summer bunny's are selling them off cheap on CL 
every hive has a place


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## odfrank

Like any topbar hive, I can wait until I get one for free from a bailing NewBee. That's how I got my Warre, that show I got my topbar.


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## Delta Bay

Other than being more complicated to build it is the size of the individual combs that is the major difference from the regular TBH and that the extra comb is well supported. Each comb is close to a deep and a half of comb surface area so can house a nice size winter cluster with good amounts of honey storage above. As with any type of equipment used for beekeeping you will need extra. The system is run for cut comb honey so is best managed with that in mind. 
Old man Dadant experimented with this same shaped hive way back when and found that bees thrive in them so it is not a new concept.


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## msl

odfrank said:


> Like any topbar hive, I can wait until I get one for free from a bailing NewBee. .


Lol I got 3 langs that way so far this year, bailing noobs have nothing to do with the hive type


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## Delta Bay

As with anything newly tried about 80% will move on after about the end of the second year.


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## Dillonmartin1

I built one and so far I love it. The only downside I see is limited space (as are all too bar hives.) That being said it does contain 2x the volume as a traditional TBH. The windows are cool. I have one in each side so that I can see how much comb has been drawn one one side and on the other I can see how much sugar water they have consumed. You can make a in hive feeder adjacent to the backboard with a sliding door easily. I also milled out the bottom and put a screen in so that I can moniter mite levels. I cut holes in the bottom and top and added screens and sliding doors for ventilation as well.

In regards to functionality I feel they are better than conventional top bar hives but less than langstroth hives. I built mine because hexiconal shaped comb looks so cool and I love woodworking. It wasn't exceptionally dificultult to build but the bars were very time consuming.


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## shannonswyatt

My TBHs are hard to move as it is, building one like this seems like it would be harder still. It is something to play around with, but at this point I have too many hives to play as much. If you are going to have one or two hives this may be ok, but the cost to purchase one is crazy, and it is complicated enough that a newbee probably wouldn't want to take on building one unless they have experience as a carpenter.


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## jinxx4ever

i've started with 4 TB's that i built myself 3 years ago. This year i added Langsford hives and just finished building 2 longhives. I see myself switching to mostly longhives and plan to have a dozen more built yet this year. I also plan on making some into nucs. I like hives off the ground (after 26 years construction, my back is not in good shape). They're super cheap to make. (mine cost less than $75 each, hold 30 frames). I've incorperated several ideas from observing other makers. Mine even have sliding bottom boards for sticky boards to check mite count.The TB's are to fragile, plus i agree with a previous post, the bees spend to much time making comb instead of honey as it's destroyed ever year.


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## jinxx4ever

some good points by all though


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