# Queen rearing in the North?



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

How large is large? AI Root in Ohio used to be a big queen producer. I believe Mike Palmer raises a fair amount of queens.

There is ALWAYS a market for GOOD queens, regardless if they are produced in the North or the South.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

I guess Im wondering if it is hard to make a living in the north from it being that the big rush is in spring for nucs and packages. I know people are rearing queens for sale in the far north but not big time like Olivarez or the like. I got some from VP queen bees in MD this summer and he seems extremely busy. You would miss the spring rush so what percentage of yearly queen sales is that? I am up in Northern WI so even AI Root had the upper hand on someone in my neck of the woods.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Countryboy said:


> How large is large? AI Root in Ohio used to be a big queen producer.


Exactly. How large is large? Did you know that in the late 1800s, the center of queen rearing in the US was in the north? States like NY, MI, CT, MA were where most queens were raised. Then it all moved south over the next 20 years.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

WI-beek said:


> I guess Im wondering if it is hard to make a living in the north from it being that the big rush is in spring for nucs and packages.


It's hard to make a living in agriculture and bees just about anywhere. I raise about 1500 queens a year. Sold about 650 this year. Also winter nucleus colonies. Sold 200+ of those. Also made 38T of honey. Getting a good price for that this year. 

So, to make a living on "queen rearing" alone? Maybe not so easy. In conjunction with the rest of my operation...every little bit helps. But I'll tell you this. Raising those 1500 queens and some 400 nucs is killer work. 80 hours a week for months at a time isn't easy. At the end you'll be in total zombie mode. If you don't mind hard work, and don't mind never having time for a break until winter, then you can make a living with your bees.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

"Exactly. How large is large? Did you know that in the late 1800s, the center of queen rearing in the US was in the north? States like NY, MI, CT, MA were where most queens were raised. Then it all moved south over the next 20 years."

So what changed the industry? Was it the railroad and package industry?


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

What caused the shift?-Migratory beekeeping, early pollination needs, disease, pest, mites, queen shipping(airline), canadian border closing on bee transportation.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

Hey beeslave, hows it going. Did you read the 1800's part? I dont think they had plains, varroa, and border issues yet. Oh, migratory beeking would be tuff to by wagon and horse, maybe by rail though.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

No, I missed the "Then it all moved south over the next 20 years" part.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

Michael Palmer

I knew that there were large queen rearing operations in the north back then from some of the reading I do on google books but I never realized it was dominated by northerners.

Could you accomplish mated queens in early march with artificial insemination? If so have you ever given that any thought?

I hear ya on the killer work part. I never meant easy in that sense. If it were not a passion driven industry Im sure more folks would be into it. I cant imagine even making it a ten fifteen years back when queen and packages were dirt cheap, and honey was hardly more expensive than hfcs.

Do you have a website?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Beeslave said:


> What caused the shift?-


Good roads, trucks, and the US Mail I would guess.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

WI-beek said:


> Could you accomplish mated queens in early march with artificial insemination? If so have you ever given that any thought?


Early March? Absolutely not. In early March we're still up to our...ears...in snow and cold. Often below zero in early March. Where would I get the virgins to inseminate? The wintering queens are just starting to lay a very little bit. There are very few nurse bees in the colonies. Who would feed the grafts? Nope, it's just not possible.

My queen rearing starts about the 10th of May. Queens are laying full speed. Colonies are building up. Nutritional conditions are good for growing queen cells. That WI-Beek is the most important part of the puzzle. Queens raised under ideal nutritional conditions. Personally, I feel the problem with package bee queens is just that. The breeders are trying to raise massive numbers of queens for their early packages, and the conditions...it seems lately, more often than not...are not the best for queen rearing. Look at this year....failing queens, drone layers, failing packages.

All that said, it is possible to have early queens raised in the North. You just have to raise them in June and July, install them in nucleus colonies, and winter the nucs. You have to view nucleus colonies as wintering queens not possible future colonies.

Sorry, don't have a site.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> All that said, it is possible to have early queens raised in the North. You just have to raise them in June and July, install them in nucleus colonies, and winter the nucs. You have to view nucleus colonies as wintering queens not possible future colonies.


As agriculture changes, agricultural practices change. Who would have thought 20 years ago 
that one could build up their colonies in late Autumn/early Winter, for maximum brood production 
and then take them to Almonds, to receive a premium pollination fee per colony?

The 'agricultural winds' in apiculture/beekeeping seem to be blowing towards locally produced 
queens that are hardy and robust. With this trend comes a change in management. 

That is certainly different from 20 years ago. 

Back when Mike Palmer was 18. 

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

adamf said:


> That is certainly different from 20 years ago.
> 
> Back when Mike Palmer was 18.
> 
> Adam Finkelstein


18? I wish. More like 41. Can you believe I got carded a few years ago in Florida.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> 18? I wish. More like 41. Can you believe I got carded a few years ago in Florida.


that's what the bees do for you. Clean living:applause:


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> 18? I wish. More like 41. Can you believe I got carded a few years ago in Florida.


Were you ordering an umbrella drink?

Adam Finkelstein


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

WI-beek said:


> So what changed the industry? Was it the railroad and package industry?


I think the demand for early queens was a factor. Most of the guys here who want mated queens in early April are making splits. You just can't produce mated queens that early in SE Missouri, plus the work of the Purvis brothers strongly suggest a queen needs 21 days in a mating nuc to get her hormones and pheromones regulated for a good acceptance to the new hive (after enduring all the shipping stress).

Was there ever a time we didn't have such a passion for splitting our hives in the early spring and requiring mated queens before local conditions warranted these resources?

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Personally, I feel the problem with package bee queens is just that. The breeders are trying to raise massive numbers of queens for their early packages, and the conditions...it seems lately, more often than not...are not the best for queen rearing. Look at this year....failing queens, drone layers, failing packages.


Here's an interesting one for thought:

Last year after I said roughly the same thing in a talk to a local bee club, one of the local package importers (not someone whom I consider exceptionally knowledgeable) said that he felt the really early queens (from package suppliers) were best. I didn't pay this much mind.

We got a number of packages last spring in two shipments from two importers (same source). The first one (early April...perhaps the 7th or 8th) took off like rockets. I had expected to requeen all of these with our "adapted stock", but in many cases left the original queen (or her daughter).

The second shipment (a few weeks later) came up with a different driver, and no doubt, the bees got warm, and didn't travel quite as well. Starting these packages just "felt" different. We had pick of the litter, and only took packages with acceptable dead bees. One had a wingless queen (i've seen wingless virgins, but how did she mate??? did she mate?), but we had some spares available. ...but they just didn't take off the same.

Yes, the weather was different, the shipping conditions were different, etc...but I can't help thinking of our own cell builders. It's easy to make up the nucs, and to make sure you have enough nutrition and nurse bees (one way or another...there are plenty of options)...but to keep them going...keeping them full of nurse bees while maximizing the number of mating nucs and minimizing the number of production colonies that have to be impacted (by stealing capped/emerging brood) is always a balancing act.

I've generally kept things simple and made up a nuc to use as both a starter and finisher (i either let them keep a queen cell they have built in the comb, or introduced a virgin after one round)...I know this isn't the most efficient method, but it does insure adequate feeding of the grafts.

Anyone else notice better "really early" package queens?

deknow


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## Jack B. Nimble (Nov 13, 2010)

WI-beek said:


> Are there many large queen rearing operations in the north? Is there much of a marker for them? Just wondering if it even makes much sense other than for yourself and local beeks.


I don't raise queens but I know some who do. I don't know how large queen producers are this far north, but I doubt that any of them are as large as they can be more south of here.

There are some advantages and disadvantages of raising queens this far north. Obviously it is much harder to have them ready for spring but it can be done. The big advantage that northern queen producers have is that the days are longer, the summers cooler (or not as hot), and we also have one of the highest amount of sun hours anywhere. All this gives virgin queens plenty of opportunities to become properly mated. 

The northern areas may have a different market. In northern climates the need to requeen is more important in the fall than it is in the south. Queen bees, in this ideal honey gathering climate, get exhausted earlier in their lives. Hives are better able to survive the winter if the hive is requeened in the fall or late summer.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

deknow said:


> Here's an interesting one for thought:
> 
> It's easy to make up the nucs, and to make sure you have enough nutrition and nurse bees but to keep them going...keeping them full of nurse bees while maximizing the number of mating nucs and minimizing the number of production colonies that have to be impacted...


When you raise queens commercially, the production colonies you speak of are for producing queens not honey. I used 60+ colonies for cell builders and support colonies, never intending on taking a harvest of honey. I did harvest all the cells we needed, and 150 nucs after cell building was finished. Very little honey though. The cells and nucs more than make up for the lost honey. The mating nucs are self sustaining and don't draw from honey production or cell building colonies.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Hi Mike,

What you describe is about what I would expect from you (meaning that you allocate appropriate resources to accomplish what you are trying to accomplish....well nourished queens). I would have no concerns that you don't take all appropriate measures to insure well nourished queens.

The situation I'm referring to is the larger package producers that are kicking out queens as fast as they can. The question is, are the very earliest queens from these producers better nourished than the later ones?

On another note, we recently heard Dave Tarpy speak about some of his current research on queens. One data point that stood out (to us) is that historically some percentage of purchased queens had measurable nosema infections. His research (which is to collect current data and compare it to historical data) shows that near 0% of purchased queens had any nosema at all. I asked him if he thought this was because the bees were "healthier", or if they were being medicated with fumidil...his response was that he thought breeders were "feeding the snot out of them" with fumidil.

deknow


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

deknow said:


> What you describe is about what I would expect from you
> 
> The situation I'm referring to is the larger package producers that are kicking out queens as fast as they can. The question is, are the very earliest queens from these producers better nourished than the later ones?


And I'm saying no. Not because the producers aren't doing the best they can. It's the weather conditions and flow conditions that I'm talking about. A little later in the season would brting better weather and flow conditions...in my opinion.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Why the geographical change in queen rearing, package bees, bulk bees and nucs?
Hint:
Sunrise will approach the northern lattitudes about 20 miles per day after 12/21
Perhaps there is more bee forage over an extended time in the southern states.
And, the winter losses could be less because you can work the bees.

Regards,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries.


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## Humanbeeing (Nov 23, 2010)

I am gearing up to raise queens here in Idaho, next spring. I don't really go into it looking to make a living, although it would be the best way to make a living I can think of. If I can expand and not be worried about having a good queen when I need her, then that will be good enough reward for me. If, by chance you do raise really nice queens, and word gets out, you will more than likely find a niche. I would concentrate on the work at hand, before the possible monetary gain in the end. That way, it just naturally flows in the direction you need to go. Just do it for your own satisfaction first. See what happens next. 
The 43rd parrallel will rise again...Bee ready!


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*NORTHERN Queens rearED in the South?*

Could Northern queen stock be hauled south to raise "Northern Queens" in isolation?

Seems to me that an early Northern queen would fetch a pretty good price...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

With 500+ queens wintering in nucleus colonies of every description, why would I want to haul my bees south. If you think of wintering nucs as wintering queens, and that they're already ahead of any early packages you can buy, and not meaning to bash anyone here...why would any northern beekeeper have anything to do with southern stock...queens or packages?


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

In my opinion the best aproch to queen rearing is doing it when bees are doing it, aroung natural swarming season. In CT that time starts some time in the first half or May. I dont start grafting before that time. 

Gilman


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> ...why would any northern beekeeper have anything to do with southern stock...queens or packages?


Mike, I don't think northern beekeepers have the resources to satisfy the demand for bees in the north. Everyone I know who sells northern nucs and queens sell out. Yet there are still many people who want bees and cannot get them. Thousands of packages make their way northward each spring, simply because northern beekeepers cannot supply enough nucs or people want bees in early April. The market for package bees is huge and there are many people who would never even consider buying a nuc over a package. Not that I agree with that thinking, I just choose not to ignore the market.


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## Beesrfun (Sep 13, 2010)

I hate the fact that package bees are sent up north it just seems like a good way of spreading pests and diseases. I think everyone should get bees from local beekeepers. Queens though you could get from anyone. But I mean rearing queens in north would be more difficult because you have to start later. I mean here in maine the temps are very unpredictable.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yuleluder said:


> Mike, I don't think northern beekeepers have the resources to satisfy the demand for bees in the north.


Yeah, I know that Yule. That's why I spend so much time trying to teach folks how to winter nucleus colonies. Where the management is becoming popular, the number of imported packages is decreasing. Some day, beekeepers will raise their own replacement stocks or folks in their local clubs will do it for them.


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## kwest (May 16, 2009)

beersfun, 
i agree with you about buying local bees from your area but in some areas like where i live there is not anyone raising and selling bees that i know of so the only way to get started is to get some shipped from the south.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

BeeCurious 

I will beat a dead horse by saying again that I do not hold a PHD in Apiculture but the anwser to your question is obvious to me and is, Yes you could haul your bees from the north and raise queens from them down south and I dont think its a bad idea either. Would the market place make up for the extra effort and expense it would take to make it happen?: is the real question to be answered.

Any commercial beekeeper from the north who makes a run for almonds or goes to other warmer regions in winter probably could care less for northern survivors. I dont know what % of northern commercial beeks are migratory but Im sure it is well over 50%, There are plenty of smaller commercial outfits and hobby beekeepers though that could benefit from it and could make that a viable proposition. 

My two cents


Yuleluder 

I agree with you. At the same time I think peoples (at least maybe hobby beekeepers) perception on beekeeping is changing as information is now so fluent on the internet. I think a little education and more local beekeepers need to get into local nuc production. Now that I have gotten my feet wet and wiped the back of my ears dry a bit, I would rather wait till I could get a local nuc with a locally produced queen if I were to need one. If a beek can produce and winter nucs with a late summer or early fall queen and winter them, that would be even better. More beeks like myself need to learn how to do this as Michael Palmer says.

Another two cents, almost a nickle now

We all could benefit from many smaller local queen rearing outfits because it would help keep a broader gene pool instead of everyone across the nation using the same genetics and throwing away all the diversity.

There now you all got a whole nickels worth of me.


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

WI-beek said:


> If a beek can produce and winter nucs with a late summer or early fall queen and winter them, that would be even better. More beeks like myself need to learn how to do this as Michael Palmer says.


I also winter nucleus colonies, however I will not sell my overwintered nucs come the following spring. Currently I only have about 100 colonies and it seems like it would be a waste for me to get rid of a colony before I have tested it for the characteristics I like and need. I also like to split from these overwintered nucs before I sell them. Normally my northern nucs are sold with queens raised from my best overwintered colonies, and are not queens that went through winter. As I said earlier I value these too much right now to get rid of without fully evaluating through the spring buildup. I usually throw another deep nuc on top and once that box is full of bees I make splits. This is when I start selling nucs. Maybe one day when my operation is larger I will sell overwintered nucs, but right now I find them too valuable for my operation.

The northern market is crying for more northern nucleus and queen producers. Slowly but surely northern producers are increasing their product, and new producers are jumping in. However, I'm not sure if northerners will be able to completely dominate the northern honeybee markets. I'm hoping it does happen, but time will tell...


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> Where the management is becoming popular, the number of imported packages is decreasing. Some day, beekeepers will raise their own replacement stocks or folks in their local clubs will do it for them.


It can be done. We are getting real close to living that dream... have cut our package orders by half or more already and hope our new student class is package free by 2012. Good teachers help Mike (both for technical skill and inspiration) : -)


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> A little later in the season would brting better weather and flow conditions...in my opinion.


...that would also be my assumption (to the point it is what we said in our book). what surprised me was not that the package hauler claimed that the earliest queens were best (i've heard a lot of bad ideas and bad information come from his mouth directly), but that our experience supported his claim. as i said before, there were a lot of other factors in play.

i'm very encouraged that so many smaller beekeepers are taking up rearing their own queens. i also think that the overwintering techniques that michael and kirk are using are starting to spread (and this is also a good thing).

but....

the disturbing trend i'm seeing is whole breeding programs based on a couple (or even one) of expensive "breeder queens" that are chosen because they are "hygienic". there are lots of problems with relying on hygienic behavior for disease/pest resistance....but most of all, unless your plan is to test and select for hygienic behavior, your stock will become less and less hygienic in just a few generations.

certainly there is lousy stock out there....and if this is what you have, look elsewhere. but for many (if not most), follow mike's advice and "start with what you have"...after all, you already have it.

deknow


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

deknow;599832 certainly there is lousy stock out there....and if this is what you have said:


> We agree on many things Dean, and I would add...
> 
> Garbage in, Garbage out.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

and:

...the grass is always greener...


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

deknow said:


> the disturbing trend i'm seeing is whole breeding programs based on a couple (or even one) of expensive "breeder queens" that are chosen because they are "hygienic". there are lots of problems with relying on hygienic behavior for disease/pest resistance....but most of all, unless your plan is to test and select for hygienic behavior, your stock will become less and less hygienic in just a few generations.


I think any good breeding program would conduct testing for hygienic behavior along with many other characteristics. I don't think buying one breeder queen to introduce hygienic genetics into a bee breeding program is a bad thing, do you?


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

if you requeen all the hives from the same breeder queen I do.


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## MTINAZ (Jan 15, 2010)

kwest said:


> beersfun,
> i agree with you about buying local bees from your area but in some areas like where i live there is not anyone raising and selling bees that i know of so the only way to get started is to get some shipped from the south.


I grew up in bozeman and plan on having local stock for sale in the next couple years, if all my plans go well. I am having the same problem were I currently live as well.


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

slickbrightspear said:


> if you requeen all the hives from the same breeder queen I do.


Is that what you are assuming? I wouldnt assume anything about other operations, large or small until I had spoken with them and asked direct questions...


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

i did not assume anything i stated that if you requeen all the hives from the same queen that i see that as a problem later.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Mr. Michael Palmer;

Do you use cloakboards? What is your opinion of that method?

MDA splitters? same question.

I am entering my third year & I am very interested in raising my own queens. I would love to get move by move instructions from wintering 4 colonies to making splits & raising queens, wintering nucs. 


do you utube any of your tips? 

I am 20 miles due south of Rochester, NY. I keep an eye & ear open for beeks, & there doesn't seem to bee that many in my area. The ones that I have found all seem to be in the 1-2 yr. I help a 30+yr commercial beek, he says he wants to retire. he may get into raising N.queens. 

I read every post I can find of yours, & would like to see a vid course on the afore mentioned aspirations. autographed & 1st class mailed if you so desire. Sorry I may have my santa pitch still workin. 

I bought 4 nucs from Michael Johnston, Eaton, NY. They had a good season lost 1. I hope to keep this line going, & expanding. Thanks for your help. Lb


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>Do you use cloakboards? What is your opinion of that method?

No, never used one. I suppose it would work ok once you knew how to get what you want in the cell builder. I've read a bit about it. I know of a large queen operation that uses cloake boards, and smokes the bottom heavily driving the bees up through the excluder. Then close slide and give graft. 

I know of a breeder who rotates sealed and unsealed brood in and out to help create the nurse bee content that she needs. Sounds like a better plan to me. 
I guess it's all how you use it.

>MDA splitters? same question.

I know nothing about them. I make my own.

>do you utube any of your tips?

I've watched one Youtube, and never Facebooked or Tweeted or Texted.

>I am 20 miles due south of Rochester, NY. I keep an eye & ear open for beeks, & there doesn't seem to bee that many in my area. 

Look up Trevor Schoenmaker in Honeoye. He worked with me in 09 and knows how.

>...autographed & 1st class mailed if you so desire. Sorry I may have my santa pitch still workin.

Ya think?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Check out eshpa.org for a list of Local Bee Clubs. There are a cpl of well attended ones in your area. ESHPA Inc will be having its' Summer Picnic in Cannindagua at the VA. You aught to come. It's on a saturday. Tom Seely is the speaker.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I have been to the Canandaigua assoc. I am 20 minutes west of there. some locals are talking of starting one close to here. It is not fair to evaluate anything with one visit. I went late in the season. Poor P A, couldn't hear well, erratic topic discussion, way too hot inside. I thought that for an assoc. that was well established it would have been more structured, geared better for networking. It was great to meet some beeks close to home. I am still going to go, just with lower expectations.

It seems to me that there is opportunity here in the North to grab market share for Qn distribution. Learning how to raise quality qns of course should be the focus. I can't learn this fast enough & going stir crazy for spring. we are supposed to get into high 40s maybe 50s Sat, love to see how my girls are doin. Thanks for your input. Lb


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