# Versatex for hive components



## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

I am not sure of the name of it but I have seen a material like this and the only thing is its HEAVY and so is the price.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

honeyman46408..

Versatex is not heavy. If anything, it is lighter than pine. Boxes, etc, would be light. 

So far I have not found a price for it. It got it from a construction site where they were building apartment buildings.

It really works well. Even through the planer, a piece of cake. Box joints have virtually no blowout. Table saw (ripping), just walks right through it. Rabbet joint, (frame rest) appears to be strong, but, needs to be tested to be sure.

Here is one more photo to show the wood grain finish.










cchoganjr


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't have any experience with Versatex, but there are a variety of adhesives that will work with it, and they are listed on this Versatex page:

http://versatex.com/sealing-pvc-trim

.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Cleo - Look at lowes. They carry this stuff. It's pretty nice I agree, but as mentioned above for the boards of it at lowes they can be a little on the steep end. I think I seen a tv reno show that used these and used epoxy to glue them together.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> there are a variety of adhesives that will work with it, according to Versatex:


Rader Sidetrack... I talked to a contractor friend and he gave me this info.

Best adhesive he has found to bond versatex to itself, (box joints, rabbet joints, etc ) is Weldon 705. To bond versatex to wood (for instance in groove of bottom board) is Liquid Nail, Heavy Duty.

He said a 1 X 6 X 12 feet long is $32.19. Therefore a shallow super would cost a little over $16.00.

A 1 X 10 X 10 cost $53.92. So a deep super would cost a little over $27.00.

So it would be expensive, but, there would be No Painting, and it would Last Forever. 

I have enough to play with, and, I am going to keep an eye out for free short pieces, make some equipment, and just see how it works. I have lots of time to play in the Winter.

cchoganjr


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## kramerbryan (Oct 30, 2013)

How good for the bee is the off gassing?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

kramerbryan said:


> How good for the bee is the off gassing?


Good question. I don't have a clue. Maybe someone will.

cchoganjr


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I thought you had cutback/retired from the manufacture end of beekeeping. The 16 table saws were calling to you? Just too addictive to quit? Or was that selling nucs you quit?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

odfrank... the answer to your questions is, YES. It seems I just love to play with bees and wood.

I am telling everyone I am not selling nucs next year. We'll see how that goes. 

As for woodworking, well, a friend brought me 450 board feet of poplar and I am turning it into shallow supers and hive bodies for him. 

Hard to just quit.

Bye the way... What do you know about off gassing? (POST # 7 above). I have seen bees live in some places you would not think they could live. 25 years ago I trapped a colony out of a truck gas tank and gasoline is highly toxic to bees. They were doing just fine in there.

Odfrank... Would you be willing to try a shallow super if I made it using versatex, and sent it to you. 

cchoganjr


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Would condensation be an issue?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Yes, i think that could be an issue, especially for the brood chambers. 

Don't think it would be so much in honey supers., BUT, I don't know. Hoping someone has tried it. If not, guess i will have to try it next year.

cchoganjr


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I bought my first hives complete and bought a few components from Brushy Mountain and Mann Lake. Now everything is made from whatever the builders put in their dumpsters. It is amazing what is thrown away.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What was the dust from cutting it like? How did the hand hold cutting go?


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## casper_zip (Apr 16, 2010)

Cleo, just watch them make this stuff on Modern Marvels. From what I saw and what they said, this stuff is indestructable, except of course, a storm or something like that. Keep us posted. I am a poor boy and not a carpenter, but I do like bee keeping and my bees. I just finished re reading the down load I got from you about the bee traps. The only thing now, is finding one I can try my skills on. My brother is making us one.
Best to you, brother,

casper_zip


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

sqkcrk... Dust is definitely a factor. (I should have mentioned it in my outline above.) Respirator or very good dust mask would need to be worn. The dust from the Radial arm and table saw is like little BB's. The dust from the box joints and planer is very much like talcum (sp??) powder. I wore a paint respirator just to be sure. A saw blade just goes right through it. In cutting the box joints, the saw does not even know the blade is cutting. In other words, it works great.

As you can see on the shallow super pictured above, the hand hold is great. Dust from it is a mix of small bb's and talcum powder.

casper_zip... I got the short pieces I have from a construction site. They had thrown away a lot of small pieces. Then, a beekeeper in E-Town, that trims out houses gave me some. He had super bad luck with his bees last Winter and I gave him 3 nucs to get him going again.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

dsegrest... You are so right. I am in with several contractors and they call me when they have scrap that they throw away because it is too short, but, for beekeeping items, you can use short pieces. Just recently got a lot of Western Red Ceder from a construction site. I am using them to make bottom boards. Unreal how light they are.

Most of my pine 1 X 12 comes from short pieces left over from roofing sheating and general construction. 

cchoganjr


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Odfrank... Would you be willing to try a shallow super if I made it using versatex, and sent it to you.

I would love one. It would take a place of honor next the one 30+ year old Kelly shallow plastic super I use every year. Can I trouble you to add a handle bar cleat?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Can I trouble you to add a handle bar cleat?

It would probably work better for Ollie if Cleo could add _TWO _cleats - one on each end.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Or send them separately for easier packaging.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Next thing you know some equipment company is gonna steal this idea. We'll have to make sure it gets called the Hogan Hive.


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

Cleo- As I left the lumber yard last week, I thought about trying this exact thing. I don't much care what it costs because I am a small hobby beekeeper and as you suggested there are some advantages. 

PVC moves a lot more than wood, which is why the typical suggestions are to either allow for movement or glue and screw to minimize movement. As has been suggested there are tons of adhesives for pvc, and if assembling en masse you can get most in caulk gun configuration.

I would think box joints, and rabbet joints are unnecessary if you were to butt, glue, and screw. There again the router table would likely be out anyhow so whats the bother.

Propolis and burr comb will likely come off easily. PVC is way easier to clean, reptile enclosures went this way many years ago. 

The r-value of pvc is 60% more than equivalent wood

One advantage that has not been mentioned is the ability to bend PVC. You could very easily construct 3 90 degree bends and have one joint that is glued and screwed on the butt. They sell a plug system called Cortex which is self tapping screws and a plug to create a hidden fixation. So your boxes could also have zero fasteners visible.

I started out beekeeping with a very "natural" attitude, and I have come to the following through much influence. There is little natural about what we do, in my area natural or feral hives do not exist, if I am to keep bees I am going to do so in a way that works best for me. I use a lot of plastic in my frames because for me it functions better and the bees do not mind. I will do whatever makes my life easier while keeping my bees alive.


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

Also most plastic glues, especially the Weld-on variety actually melt and bond at the joint, like you see with pvc pipes, the plastic usually breaks around the joint rather than at the joint when put under tremendous stress.

I think about the only thing against PVC is appearance. I kinda like the look of my drafty, warped, not painted boxes...although I will likely be replacing them in under 10 years...maybe less.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

casper_zip said:


> Cleo, just watch them make this stuff on Modern Marvels. From what I saw and what they said, this stuff is indestructable, except of course, a storm or something like that. Keep us posted. I am a poor boy and not a carpenter, but I do like bee keeping and my bees. I just finished re reading the down load I got from you about the bee traps. The only thing now, is finding one I can try my skills on. My brother is making us one.
> Best to you, brother,
> 
> casper_zip


I had a mechanical by-pass as a child and am extremely incompetent with tools, but I have been making copies of the freeman bottom board out of scrap lumber. the hardest thing is the landing strip, so I cut a whole 2X4 at the same time and then just chop off the pieces as I need them.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

odfrank said:


> Can I trouble you to add a handle bar cleat?


odfrank... I would but, I don't have a clue how to add a handle bar cleat. Perhaps I should let you do that.

I will get one made later this week and send to you. Please PM me a mailing address.

Bye the way, reference the 16 table saws above, (Post # 9), I only have 7.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> We'll have to make sure it gets called the Hogan Hive.


I don't care anything about fame,(or fortune), but, I do derive a great deal of satisfaction from helping others, and advancing a cause that I believe in. Three of those are woodworking, bees, and fishing.

cchoganjr


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, Cleo,if dry sugar feeding can be called "The Mountain Camp Method" (which someone called the Camp Mountain Method on another Forum recently, chuckle) and Michael Johnson cares not for fame either, then it just seems right to me.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > It would probably work better for Ollie if Cleo could add _TWO _cleats - one on each end.


Give a confused old man a break. It made sense to me when I wrote it.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I don't care anything about fame,(or fortune), cchoganjr


Someone on this site referred to my beveled handle cleats as an "odfrank handle". You have to grab your 15 minutes of fame whenever you get a chance.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

odfrank handle it is.

When I read Rader's comment, i laughed out loud. Two is better than one.

cchoganjr


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

For the record, I like the ODFrank handles,:thumbsup: and use them on my boxes. Not only are they a convenient no-slip hand grip, but because they are cut with a 15 degree downslope on both the top and bottom, the outer edge of the handle acts as a "drip edge" and helps keep the rain from running down that side of the box.

Thanks Ollie!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Radar... Do you suppose I should send him 3 handles???

cchoganjr


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Sure, three is often better than two. 


Although hive handles generally are more useful on hives in pairs/even numbers, Ollie might have an _alternative _use for that extra handle ...


... perhaps as part of a _carrot & stick_ program involving _Charlie B_ ... :s


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> For the record, I like the ODFrank handles,:thumbsup: and use them on my boxes.


I don't and don't. I like to stack six stacks of supers on pallets. You can't do that w/ ODFRank Handles.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> ... perhaps as part of a _carrot & stick_ program involving _Charlie B_ ... :s


I have already been swindling Charlie with personalized handles for years. That guy is the easiest mark you can find.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

odfrank said:


> I have already been swindling Charlie with personalized handles for years. That guy is the easiest mark you can


I think Brother Adam would be disappointed if he were alive and read some of Ollie's self promoting post on Beesource. He would never name a simple cleat after himself. You're no D.Coates Ollie!:no:


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Charlie B said:


> I think Brother Adam would be disappointed if he were alive and read some of Ollie's self promoting post on Beesource. He would never name a simple cleat after himself. You're no D.Coates Ollie!:no:


I did not name it after myself, it was named after me by another member who recognizes the fabulous contributions I have made to the beekeeping world. Brother Adam gave me a tour of his facilities and signed his book for me way back in 1978. He already way back then was able to foresee the contributions I would make in future years. I will have to make a list of my other inventions to further promote my fame. 

The piano hinged extractor stand comes to mind. And the pressure cooker steam comb melting tank...the list goes on....


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

odfrank said:


> I did not name it after myself, it was named after me by another member who recognizes the fabulous contributions I have made to the beekeeping world. Brother Adam gave me a tour of his facilities and signed his book for me way back in 1978. He already way back then was able to foresee the contributions I would make in future years. I will have to make a list of my other inventions to further promote my fame.
> 
> The piano hinged extractor stand comes to mind. And the pressure cooker steam comb melting tank...the list goes on....


Man oh man, is it getting "deep" in here! :lookout:


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> odfrank handle it is.
> cchoganjr


Cleo,

This is what happens when you agree with his grandios ideas!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Charlie B..

Just wait until he tries out the Versatex super next year. (That is what we are discussing on this thread.) I cut it out today and it will be on its way to California tomorrow. Maybe for a nominal fee he may show it to you.

I assembled another one today, and I found that the last finger/valley of the box joints is likely too small for plastic. I don't make a lot of shallow supers, and when I do, I use the same dado stack and sled that I use for deep supers. When making a shallow of plastic the final finger/valley is only about 7/16 wide. If I were going to make very many of these using Versatex I would set up another dado/sled, reduce the width of the finger/valleys so that the final one would be at least 5/8 or 11/16 inch wide. When using wood and glue the 7/16 is O.K. but, the Versatex is somewhat brittle.

I hope everyone knows I AM NOT advocating for this new product. I am only testing it to see if there is an application for beekeeping. So far I am not sold on making deep supers from it, except 5 frame nucs. While it does have a higher "R" value for insulation than wood, I am concerned about moisture condensation. I don't believe that will be a problem with shallow supers. My limited tests indicates some promise for bottom boards, I have not found them to warp under 5 frame nuc deeps, but, have not tested them yet on 10 framers. For those who use a telescoping outer cover, I like the Versatex for the frame when using a frame with a metal covering.

It may take a few years to determine the value of this product to beekeeping. By that time, I will be long gone.

cchoganjr


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Maybe for a nominal fee he may show it to you.

Don't expect this to happen. Charlie only comes around when he is screwing me on the price of ten frame equipment as he is converts to 8 frame. I think his conversion is finished.


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## BigGun (Oct 27, 2011)

I wonder how it does when prying two boxes apart?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Big Gun...

That is another one of the areas that needs trial runs to see what happens. 

Without having used one, i do not know. I do know that, while it is not what you would call brittle, it will chip, if, you drive a nail into it too closely to the edge of the board. It may be that prying on the boxes may chip it, I really do not know.

odfrank has offered to test one and I am sending it to him today, but, as I mentioned above, it may be years before we know if this product is useful/or not to beekeeping.

Over the short term there may be some positives and some negatives. Some long term tests will be required. .

cchoganjr


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>odfrank has offered to test one and I am sending it to him today, but, as I mentioned above, it may be years before we know if this product is useful/or not to beekeeping.

To properly test for chipping while prying apart you better send me two. 
We better also test for compression from stacking, so send me two deeps and about 8 shallows. Include a bottom board so I can test it for compression and a cover for waterproofing, sunburn and wind.

I don't have shallow frames in stock so send me as many as I will need of those also.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The _Versatex _manufacturing plant may have to add an _additional shift_ to keep up with Ollie's demand!  


Versatex does offer a _Technical Bulletin_ on machining Versatex. It does note that the product was designed to largely mimic wood, and is subject to crushing/marking from clamping processes.
http://versatex.com/PDF/C-1_Moulding_n_Millwork.pdf


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

odfrank;1176258
The piano hinged extractor stand comes to mind. ....[/QUOTE said:


> Could you post a picture of that please.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

odfrank..

I will need your Social Security Number so I can list you as a dependent, when I file my taxes, and also offer you a W-4.

cchoganjr


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Photos in this thread of Ollie's _Hinged Extractor Stand_®™ [sup]Patent Pending[/sup]


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?302675-40-quot-Nylon-Spatula-alternative


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

odfrank said:


> >odfrank has offered to test one and I am sending it to him today, but, as I mentioned above, it may be years before we know if this product is useful/or not to beekeeping.
> 
> To properly test for chipping while prying apart you better send me two.
> We better also test for compression from stacking, so send me two deeps and about 8 shallows. Include a bottom board so I can test it for compression and a cover for waterproofing, sunburn and wind.
> ...


Cleo,

He's just trying to get free equipment. Don't fall for it. He's a cheap bastard who uses T111 siding for hive boxes. He doesn't care what they're made of. He pays me next to nothing for pristine equipment I've sold him in the past.

Better to have me test it. That way you'll get accurate information!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Charlie B said:


> Cleo, Better to have me test it.


PM me a mailing address. Give me a few days to get around to building it. (deer season comes in Saturday).

cchoganjr


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Cleo Wimpy Hogan - the most generous member of Beesource

I assembled the generous gift he sent me...my very own Versatex shallow super. I decided not to glue, as it is similar to gluing PVC pipe, the clear glue might set very fast, not giving this fumbling, clumsy old man enough time to properly assemble square. So I settled for 2 1/4" stainless drive screws all around. My great grandchildren will still be able to use this box. I found the material similar to wood to work with. Sawed real smooth when I beveled the handles. Drills and screws easy also, seems to weigh about the same as wood. Frame spacer brads drove in easy.
My only complaint...when drilling you get a burnt plastic smell...and oh boy, branding was something else. It was a no burn day here in the SFBA, and I sure broke the rules branding the box....and the plastic smoke fumes OH BOY!!! The high I got off those fumes was similar to an organic mescaline trip I took on Mount Tamalpais in 1969.
Here is the super in it's honorable position on top of my other shallows. The four silver boxes on the bottom, the first boxes I started with in 1970. They must be 60 years old by now. The grey ones acquired over the years. Second from the top, a 1970's or '80s Kelley plastic shallow. And on top, my new prized possession, my very own Versatex super. 



The Versatex with nine frame spacers. I can probably sand off that scorching.



The Kelley and Versatex together. I just last week marked the S on all the shallows to help differentiate them from my 200 mediums.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Honey-Super-EXPLODES!!!&p=1311610#post1311610


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