# Newbie needing help - overheating



## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

I wish I could post a picture. Temps today above 90. My top bar hive has bees hanging outside the box in the shape of a comb. Oodles of them. Is this ok??? Daughter made us the box for a Christmas present. The bottom of it is solid. Can I put a screen top on it for the days it's so very hot???


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...Jw1TH1aSLacoR281P57gmVL9fM3xUwNzv2fZEXnFcLKGC

This is one way to vent a TBH. Other vents can be found by doing a Google Image search for TBH Venting.

https://www.google.com/search?q=top...id%3Dfd591fdf5e95af605be14d881f01d7da;400;213

You might drill 1" holes in the follower board and cover them with screen ( mosquito screen will do). TBH hives top bars make a closed inner cover that needs bypassing, but without letting the bees enter the rear space. The holes should be near the top of the follower board.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Have we melted the combs?!
Thanks for your help!


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

I can't tell - in the photo - is that a wire mesh cover?


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

No, it is just a small metal louvered vent, a hole with no cover will do as there are no bees up there. A cover just eliminates bees wandering into the top space, screen it.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Julysun - I didn't read your entire post. We don't have a follower board. The hive has filled out 1/2 way. We've been feeding them inside the 2nd half. Husband says we should put popsicle sticks in the corners to elevate.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Good idea, LARGE popsicle sticks.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Daughter made the lid flat not pitched. She used old fencing. No spacing of course. Husband covered top with metal sheeting to ensure weather proofing.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Could that pile of bees in the shape of a comb be a group about to swarm?


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

I guess I better start eating the Popsicles...... Good thing I have some.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

I posted them on YouTube. I'll find the link and post it. The queen has 1 wing clipped.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

I am not sure bees form up into a clump prior to swarming, most I read is that they generally get agitated inside the hive and come out in a rush. Maybe someone else can comment on this.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uteLyr9QwJo


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Moderator has to approve my YouTube link. They are not agitated. They are very calmly "hanging out" from off each other.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Even with improved venting they will be slow to go back into the hive, may take several hours IMHO. Bees do their own thing, sometimes slowly.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

This Popsicle stick is awfully thin. Think maybe 2 stacked?


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Pencils would work.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

How many combs do you have? How big are they. Under normal conditions how packed is the hive with bees? Do you have empty (no comb) top bars? Possibly you just need to add top bars to reduce crowding.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

It's almost dark and they are still hanging. But the other Langstroth hives all have ladies out. I'm not going to worry bout messing with the girls tonight. If I shake em up they really might swam. Tomorrow early before it heats up I will prop the lid about 1/4 or so all around. No one thinks I should put a screen over the top and leave the lid off?? We will have hotter days than this in August.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Julysun
We have 5 Langstroth and 1 top bar. 1st summer with bees. Top bar 1/2 filled. Should I put empty bars in the brood nest area? Should I even disturb it in this heat??


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

No, it might rain. The 1/4 inch all around should be fine. Make sure you have empty top bars (3 or 4?) for them to festoon on. How big is your entry? That can/will limit fresh air entry, if you are using drilled holes for entry drill more IMO. 

Here is what Mr. Bush has to say about TBH venting. He is a much, much better guide than I.

"Question: On Langstroth hives you often have a top and bottom vent to get sufficient ventilation. Should I provide cross ventilation in my TBH?

Answer: Bees seem to have more trouble ventilating a vertical hive with no vent at the top. They have to force dry air (which wants to go down) up to the top and hot moist air at the top (which wants to go up), back down and out the bottom. It's sort of like walking 20 miles to school, uphill both ways. So a top vent or top entrance in a vertical hive seems to be very helpful as it allows the hot moist air out the top which sucks the dry air in the bottom. With a horizontal hive, this is not an issue. They just move the air in a circular fashion in one side and back out the other side and out the door. Sort of like a nice level walk with no hills. This seems to work well. With cross ventilation (such as a front and back vent or entrance) the wind may blow through the hive and that may be a bad thing."

So, He seems to be saying that your entry should be large enough to allow the bees to move the air in and out to cool the hive. How big is enough? Mine was 3/4" high and 6" wide. I have since moved them into a Lang as my 5 hives are Langs and I did not want the odd hive to work. You may not have a heat problem, they may just need more space in the hive, eg, more bars. Don't add into the brood nest, add at the end of your present bars so as to extend the stack.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

My TBH hives have just a flat top also, most are screened bottoms, but a couple are solid bottoms with bottom entrances, I don't use follower boards. I just drilled an 1 1/8 inch hole in the top of the rear of the box I screened them on the outside so the bees could stand in the 3/4 inch ledge inside and force the hot air through the hole, you could put several holes if you want, if you don't have screen handy go ahead and drill them and screen them later so you can give them some relief now. Hot air rises so they have to be at the top.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Daughter made hive based on the book "Top-Bar Beekeeping" by Less Crowder & Heather Harrell. The book says the access should be 6 inches. I'm sure it's that. She stuck with his instructions. So I understand, I should move some empty bars in between the existing comb filled bars? And how deep to I go with that? I don't know if as a newbie, I'm allowed to post pictures. But I am going to try to insert some pictures in this post. Wouldn't let me do pictures but maybe this you tube will come through.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

As you can see in the video, the access is about 6 inches. My husband added the landing and they are literally hanging off it. So.... if I drill holes at the top... and I have plenty of screening.... but - will the shavings from the drilling cause some angst or should I just drill holes where the bars are empty? I checked the entire hive bout 2 weeks ago when it was in the 80's. I removed any bridge comb and basically the colony looked great. They are working on winter stores now and about 1/2 way through the box. I still don't understand if I should put spacers (empty bars) between existing comb and how far into the brood I should go doing that.... 
Thanks folks for all your responses!! I really want my girls to live and be productive....


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

If they are hanging outside from each other they are probably "bearding", which isn't a huge deal but does mean it is warm in the hive. Mine beard. On the main hive I opened another hole and they just beard there too. With the nucs I can't do anything about it but they are fine. (Well, one that is full is fanning at the entrance as well as a huge beard so I need to figure out how to keep them the "right" size or make a bigger nuc for them.)

If you have a flat roof covered with metal and no air gap between that and the bars I would worry about the heat transferring and causing comb collapse (depends on how hot it gets there). You can try giving them an air gap or add some foam insulation between the two. You might also take a look at Michael Bush's website The Practical Beekeeper. If you haven't been opening the broodnest I would recommend you look that up on the site. I'm just in my second year so make sure you take a look at what the experts say.

EDIT - Saw your video, I agree that a vent hole up near the top will help. If you can put it in the area of the hive they aren't using it may be easiest with the least disruption. There you could reach in and take out any big chips from drilling. My main hive doesn't quite beard that much but the nuc I mentioned does.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Thanks Colleen. I will check out his site. I did look at the broodnest about 2 weeks ago. It looked great. As far as a newbie can tell. If I understand correctly, in this heat I disturb it as little as possible....?? In the AM I am elevating the lid about 1/4 inch. Think that will do it? 
Really appreciate everyone's input!


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Yes, definitely be careful in the heat especially if manipulating newly drawn comb. I did that two weeks ago and caused a comb collapse. I have been putting an empty bar or two in my broodnest since May to get them to expand and also in hopes of preventing a swarm. It worked on the expansion but they did still swarm on me.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Husband is wondering if we raise the lid 1/4 do we open the hive to robbing from the other hives? The Top Bar sits next to 5 Langstroth hives.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

We've only had this hive since the middle of June. ALL the comb is newly drawn. Do you recover the swarm or is the hive lost then?


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

I think in general you should add bars at the end of your present bars, away from the entry end. If your box is full of top bars and all are drawn out with comb you are up against one shortcoming of a TBH. You cannot expand beyond filled. You can extract honey and put the empty bars back in the box, but you still have to many bees for the hive. About the only solution to this is to start another hive by splitting the outgrown one.Or, wait for them to swarm, wave good bye and wish them well! 

Do you have space for more bars? Do you want a second TBH? Now is the time to split the hive if it is full.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Are your bars solid under the lid? If they are it couldn't cause robbing. If there are gaps I would put in the screened vent hole. I have a screened bottom board on the one hive but have been leaving it on due to past problems with SHB. When young they can get in past the number 8 mesh.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Since June? Was it an established hive?. Did you start with a package of bees? You may have a terrific hive if it filled that fast.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

julysun

This is a new TBH. It's only 1/2 filled. We've only had this hive since the middle of June. There is LOTS of room inside that TB. In fact, 2 jar feeders are inside there. They have only been drawing out the comb for about 2 months.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Then just add some empty bars to give them space.

By the way, you can stop feeding as that just encourages the hive to grow. Somehow the queen knows how much nectar is coming in, in your case sugar water, and adjust her egg laying to match the food supply. With all that sugar water she has been in high gear to produce bees.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Colleen - the bars are tight.
julysun - we took our TB to a local beekeeper. She raises hygienic queens. A very resistant strain of bees. Carniolan bees. She started the hive and we picked it up when she was comfortable that it was well established. There were probably 8 or so bars filled. When she gives you a nuc for a Langstroth, there's usually 4-5 frames. But she wanted to let the TB get established good before we came to get it. Since June, yes. The hive is very strong.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

sab said:


> We've only had this hive since the middle of June. ALL the comb is newly drawn. Do you recover the swarm or is the hive lost then?


I was not home when they swarmed so I missed it but the hive does recover if they succeed in raising a new queen. I took advantage of it and made a nuc up with some of the extra queen cells. I figured it was good insurance for if one queen didn't make it back or something. I also want to try overwintering nucs so I wanted the nuc anyway. Both queens made it back and are laying. The hive has definitely recovered but they are certainly behind where they would have been if they hadn't swarmed. I tried to prevent it like I mentioned and also split off a nuc a week before they swarmed (which is the crowded, bearding one).


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

"Do you recover the swarm or is the hive lost then?" Very high odds against recovering the swarm. They may go miles away, when you are away. Their first jump may be only a short distance and if you miss that they may jump across town.

Funny that, some on this Forum say the first jump is to see if they, the swarm, have the queen with them and if she can fly well. If she passes those test they search for a new home and go for the long and last flight. Bees are amazing!


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

I don't know why this won't let me upload a picture. So I'm going to try it this way. Here is a photo of the inside of my TBH - 2 month old hive.... Took the photo day before yesterday.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

now that's disgustingly small....
I'm going to try that again.....


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)




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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

twice the size but no better. Hum....


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Yeah, they need more bars and a follower board. Nice photo, it blows up OK.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

wait... click on it.... That's my girls... and the hive box is half empty... plenty of empty bars to build on.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

what is the purpose of the follower board? They've been doing just fine without one?


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

As I understand it is to make them feel to be in a closed nest. Secondly to prevent them from building burr comb onto the removable top. Thirdly, because the engineer in me wants to follow the design!


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

My follower board has a 3/4 in gap at the bottom so they can access the space behind it but for you since you don't have one its a moot point for an entrance I just slide the first bar back when they beard heavily in the heat I just remove the last top bar in the back with in min fanners show up and they are pushing air in through the back and out the front it doesn't take long for the beard to get smaller sometimes it goes away completely


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Harley, that sounds like info she can use! Great!

Harley, do you have a flat top or a peaked one?


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

just so I understand
remove the last bar - furthest from the opening and empty
move every bar in this heat toward the back and put the last bar in the 1st bar slot 
in this heat?
I won't cause heavy comb to fall???
They are loaded...


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

sab said:


> what is the purpose of the follower board? They've been doing just fine without one?


Some use them some don't. The Philip Chandler design uses two and center bottom holes. I tried them because I purchased the hive and it was a similar design but I ended up changing all that. Right now I have the solid follower board in to create a nuc at the other end of the hive when I saw those swarm cells but in general I don't use it. I used the one with a hole in it last year until I saw the SHB were using it as a safe haven. Seeing that I made one up that has beespace (3/8") on the sides and bottom but took it out when I made the nuc. I will put it back in when I move the nuc to a new home.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

The follower board is to contain the combs in a managable brood nest and to block/prevent wild comb in the "free" space. In a big flow (May) a large hive will quickly run out of space (bars) to store honey and will build comb wherever it can and in whatever shape and place the see fit. And yes in a big flow with alot of bees this can occur within a day or two. I really doubt there is much flow now, feeding syrup is a pseudo flow so they will continue to draw comb and expand brood nest. Just make sure you give them room to expand and if they are still drawing comb; open slates in between combs or at the end. You probably havn't experience problems without a follower bc the hive is small and outside of peak flow. 

The bearding is totally normal, my langs have 100s, if not a thousands bees out front on hot summer nights. If your really worried about the heat, move the hive to a location that recieves afternoon shade. Or devise somekind of shade umbrella to block the sun. 

imo top bars are inferior to langs. I think new people like them bc they are different/neat/trendy.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Re: Newbie needing help - overheating
just so I understand
remove the last bar - furthest from the opening and empty
move every bar in this heat toward the back and put the last bar in the 1st bar slot 
in this heat?
I won't cause heavy comb to fall???
They are loaded...

Nope, if you must, pick up the first bar and move it to be the last comb, or throw it away. Then, I think Harley and M. Bush say they leave the first space open, and the last space open. Right Harley?


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Interesting in that in the book my daughter used as a guide, it says to have a spacer bar in the front and back. All the other bars have a wooden guide to build on. But the bees insisted on building on that first spacer bar. THAT is probably the problem. There literally is NO space at the front of this hive. They may even have that 1st bar attached to the wall as well.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Hubby says we can't do that cause they built brood on that first bar.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

sab said:


> Interesting in that in the book my daughter used as a guide, it says to have a spacer bar in the front and back. All the other bars have a wooden guide to build on. But the bees insisted on building on that first spacer bar. THAT is probably the problem. There literally is NO space at the front of this hive. They may even have that 1st bar attached to the wall as well.


I have that book, it is a good one.

According to Michael Bush's website http://bushfarms.com/bees.htm, his TBH entrance is just the first bar set back from the end of the hive 3/8" and then the lid sits on top of a 3/4" bar giving them a 3/8" X 3/4" entrance. You already have an entrance so I would either give them a vent hole or just prop the last bar at the back of the hive up on the front side to give them a vent. You can try that and see if it helps without messing with the nest or committing to a hole.

Wyatt Mangum's book is good too. A deeper read than the Crowder one but has some useful tips too.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Well, I have been looking hard on the web to get pictures or comment about that first space and only see it by Harley and Bush and could be misunderstanding them. So stick with what you have and ride it out. What else?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Leave them in the order they were just slide them all back 3/4 of an inch so there is a gap in the front do it mid morning before it gets too hot mine have brood on the first bar as well but are slowly converting it over to mostly pollen when you get to the back open it up as well if you have to but just sliding the bars back may be enough you dont want to leave both ends open forever when it starts cooling off it can allow a draft you also don't want to open up more than they can defend you can accomplish that with a false board ripped to the proper width to only allow a small gap in the back. I use the follower board to contain them and try to keep 6-8 emptie bars between it and the comb this gives them a smaller area to defend allows me to access the feeder jar with out disturbing the nest and discourages them from turning the honey comb and run across bars


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

My roof is a sheet of plywood laying directly over the bars and overhangs. I started off with 3 holes but didnt like them so I plugged them with corks


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Well, it has been good talking to you, sorry I can't be of any real help. I went through similar troubles last summer. I converter to a Lang. But that is no help to you. Keep us posted. Good night.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Ok I just saw you video I didn't realise the entrance was on the side it was hard to tell but it looks like some sort of telescoping cover is used over the bars, if that is the case disreguard my previous advice if my hive were that style I'd drill a few 1 in holes on the back side away from the nest on the end on the top side and when cool weather returns plug them with corks so you don't have draft issues


Sorry its late and those directions are hard to follow drill vent holes on the narrow side parallel to the comb on the side away from the nest not on the long side opposite your entrance. Does that make better sense?


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Yes I understand. Drill at the end -- my daughter numbered the bars. Of course they are not in order now. So instead of raising lid with popscicle sticks, just drill at the highest numbered bars (which is the opposite end of the 1st brood comb). And not to disturb the nest. There is no follower board but the girls are building in correct formation. Right now its 73 outside @ 8:00AM. It got down to 67 last night. Hubby says we have to be careful not to let too much out as the girls will have to work harder to stay warm. I'll take pictures of what I do. 
Can't thank everyone enough for ALL your help!


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

And I will screen the holes


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Bearding Bees gone this AM. Here's what I did:





















My bars are tight. They are numbered to 29 with a spacer bar for each end. They have built out to exactly the middle - they are on bar 16 now.







And the bee activity from Friday afternoon to this AM (Monday AM)







And I knew those wine corks would come in handy one day - I have wine corks for all 3 holes ready to plug.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

sab said:


> Bearding Bees gone this AM. Here's what I did:
> View attachment 7021
> 
> View attachment 7022
> ...


That will work! , the thing I don't like about that design of TBH and you will soon find out, is when the top bars fit tight up against end boards they swell, and at some point will no longer fit. That is why I just lay a flat sheet of plywood on top, my box is flush all the way around and the bars sit on top, not down in, on one of them between swelling and propolis buildup I have lost one whole bar that will no longer fit on it.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Looking good! I'll bet you still have some bearding, a total solution may not be found so just go with the flow. As M Bush says "Everything works if you let it".


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

4:30 and 93 degrees ("feels like" 98 temp) and the sun is bright - went to check the hive. There's a 2 inch long by about 1/2 inch thread of bees starting to hang.... nothing like yesterday.... so far lookin' good! *Thanks every one!!!*

Now I have a ? about feeding but I'll start a new thread for that one.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

yeah that's not so bad, I had one of my langs with a top entrance only that had 4-5 lbs bearding the other day LOL


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## Life is Good! (Feb 22, 2013)

The first day of the high heat/humidity here (was Sunday), our tbh's bearded a bit. Yesterday, in even higher humidity, the hives totally bearded - just like you describe, it looked like a comb being built outside the hive! The bees even were bearding out the BACK end of the hive (I have front entrances)! The bees were bearding on the edges of the bars, around the top cover....wherever they could find a spot to hang on for the night! I swear the whole hive was outside to sleep under the stars! (Didn't get a chance to see if it was workers or drones outside....was too dark to distinguish from a distance).

By morning, the bearding was down to just a couple dozen bees. 

Let's see what tonight brings, as the humidity is just as high. The sun just as strong all day - even though the hives are in the shade from 11am onward. The temps were just as high as yesterday.

Can't wait for the heat to break....at least the humidity! This beekeeper cannot take it!


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Let the bearding begin!!!!!


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I had been following this thread and got to wondering if the heat was too high in one of my hives. They beard like crazy as well. It has a great roof, when I lift the lid and put my hand under it it seems cooler than the ambient temp. Then I got to thinking about the attic in a house and how it is hotter than blue blazes and got to thinking maybe it should be hotter in there. So I whipped up a vent to let the hot air in the hive escape to the top. basically it is two sticks about 3/8s of an inch in diameter, just some scrap that was laying around, then I put spacers on both ends to separate them about 3/4 or an inch. Stapled some #8 hardware cloth on them and put it in place of a top bar. No beard when I got home, but a shower had come through and cooled off the place. I'll check tomorrow to see if they beard up. I figured if they don't like it they will propolize it closed.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Yes, please report after a hot day, we are all interested in how to vent a TBH and for that matter a Lang.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

i'll check today. On a lang you can use a rim with holes in it covered in hardware cloth for venting.


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

Yesterday was a scorcher and so, sure enough, those bees were out in a really REALLY big beard. They were very calm - just hanging. Most not even moving their wings. I don't feel warm air coming out the holes I drilled. So I guess I'm back to square 1 except I'm armed with the knowledge that this isn't a swarm action. At least not yet.....


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## sab (Jul 15, 2013)

??????
In heat, are you checking the TBH or leaving it untouched? 
If so, weekly? More or less??
And lastly, do you regularly check every bar?

I have only checked each bar once since setting up the colony. Bad?


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I checked today. It is hotter today than on Monday. The bearding is much less today. There is still a decent amount of bees, maybe a cup or so, but the other day it looked like a three pound package.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I'm thinking the screen bar is a success. Yesterday was hot again and not much bearding at all


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## LaReine (Feb 9, 2012)

sab, what your bees are doing is called "bearding" and is very normal on hot days. I wish I could show you a photo of our bees bearding but I don't know how to post photos. We are in western Colorado where temps have been in the 90's, occ into 3 digits. On hot afternoons the entire end of one of our TBHs is covered with a very thick mass of bees. Looks like a swarm but it's not. They often hang out there until after dark when it cools off. No worries about the bearding but do be very careful not to handle combs at all when the temp is very hot--the wax gets incredibly soft and will fall off easily if moved (don't ask how I know this). So to answer your last question, unless the bees are clearly not well, it is best not to disturb them at all (top bar hives that is) in the summer heat. ...my opinion anyway.


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