# Sticky  TF in a world that treats



## GregB

This is a good write up and I appreciate.

I don't see much about:
- evaluate your location(s) regarding feasibility/risks in terms of TF - before even doing anything
(a very important component; e.g. I probably would not bother next to a big commercial yard, especially migratory).


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## Oldtimer

Some great common sense advice, much would apply in the non TF world also.


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## Clayton Huestis

> evaluate your location(s) regarding feasibility/risks in terms of TF - before even doing anything
> (a very important component; e.g. I probably would not bother next to a big commercial yard, especially migratory).


From 2000 to 2016 I was hard bond style TF along with small cell methods. In 2016 enter commercial yard down the road from my main mating yard. Hard bond TF doesn't work well in this situation. I had to change my ways. Makes an endless loop of poor genetics causing my colonies to get worse and worse then spreading varroa to the neighborhood. I also at the time I brought in some TF queens which were terrible with almost no resistance/ tolerance they crashed by end of august and set me back more than I want to admit. This is the main reason for OAV in a TF apiary due to to reinfestation from neighbor colonies. This is used as needed. The most important thing is to not use anything that will contaminate wax.

Bees with good virus resistance can only be done in colonies that aren't treated. Bees that show DWV is what I use to select for virus resistence, its not perfect but is the only virus that I can spot quickly. So colonies that show DWV are re-queened using other cells at mating time. So some queens don't last over 2 months here. Every queen dies each year. Queens to me have as much value as drones. With my current system I don't care what the neighbors do with there bees. There drones just give me genetic diversity and I don't have to buy any queens at all. I only buy queens about every 3-5 years and no more than 10% of hive count from TF beekeepers or Russian stock.

Something I learned from Steve Coy (Russian breeder)- Russian bees are the only bees here in the US that groom there drones- all our over breed commercial stock doesn't do this, this is a trait I find desireable from Russian bees. Russian and carniolan bees are often said to be more swarmy than other bees. I give them what they want every year by swarming them. Swarming / supercedure is one way Russian (or any bees) deal with varroa. I do it so I never have to chase them. I direct there energy they don't direct me. 

Change your thinking. Instead of asking why did they die? Ask why did they live? In the end we can only deal with the ones that live. 

I'll add more as I think of it.


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## Litsinger

Clayton Huestis said:


> I'll add more as I have time.


Clayton:

I appreciate you posting your thoughts here, and I look forward to hearing more from you.

Russ


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## GregB

Clayton Huestis said:


> From 2000 to 2016 I was hard bond style TF along with small cell methods. In 2016 enter commercial yard down the road from my main mating yard. Hard bond TF doesn't work well in this situation. .........


Exactly why the feasibility study is #1 before spending time/money/effort.
Lot of (most?) wanna be TF never thought/were told of the feasibility.
Has to be on the top of the list.

(IF you are already grandfathered in there - that is a different case; you can not just give up and drop out).
But starting anew and no base/resources, and no experience, and a commercial yard within a mile?
Don't bother with the TF project.

Lucky for me - not commercials around.
Only a bunch of residential activity going on based on purchased bees - they popping up/they are dropping off.
I feel this much of the imported bees I can tolerate by doing the moves that I am trying to do.
So, CF is feasible here with some planned-for losses.


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## Clayton Huestis

For anyone interested in my honey production method it can be found in Richard Taylor's book, The Comb Honey Book. It goes perfectly hand in hand with mel's OTS method. The chapter (Ch. 11) is called; Reducing the colony and letting the bees raise a new one. My modification is instead of combining the two units I break both down into wintering nucs. Although its a comb honey method it can equally be used for extracted honey.

It should be said that we can have a decent fall flow from asters and goldenrod. I choose to not produce honey here as I do allot of foundationless. I let the bees have it all.


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## Clayton Huestis

Greg I had kept bees there since I was 10yrs old. It was my home yard I wasn't moving away. Been there for 30 yrs or so in 2016. Like I said I changed what I was doing. If you can't flex and change in your beekeeping it won't be long before you get in trouble. They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results..... It was time for change and I embrace it.


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## GregB

Clayton Huestis said:


> Greg I had kept bees there since I was 10yrs old. It was my home yard I wasn't moving away. Been there for 30 yrs or so in 2016. Like I said I changed what I was doing. If you can't flex and change in your beekeeping it won't be long before you get in trouble. They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results..... It was time for change and I embrace it.


Totally understand and so I qualified the "feasibility proposal".
A new circumstance landed on you.

The feasibility evaluation is for a lot of new folks who just need to be talked out of it - as appropriate and best for everyone.


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## JWPalmer

Oldtimer said:


> Some great common sense advice, much would apply in the non TF world also.


Argreed, timing may change depending on location and flow. For me, artificial swarms need to be completed around the first of April. I waited too long this year and hives were swarming by the second week, just as we hit the main flow.


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## GregB

Clayton Huestis said:


> .... May 21st all hives are artificially swarmed (Every last one) this reduces mites and is my swarm control method


Technical question:
- what do you mean by this? "artificially swarmed"

Seems to me you mean - queen-right splitting.
Is that right?

Artificial swarming in my context == a shook swarm that forces the bees through some home-less state.
As in here (bees physically shaken out and dumped outside or into some enclosure, optionally)


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## Clayton Huestis

We just have a difference in terminology. Artificial swarming is when the queen is taken with the split, leaving the other half queenless. This is opposed to a queenless split where a cell or queen is added after. I make my artificial swarm splits with 2 frames of capped brood and one honey and a couple shakes of bees. This leaves the remaining unit a nice cell builder. It is important to let the cell builder make the queen cells first then a week later break into nucs. Done the opposite way leads to terrible queens. Have to always work with strength.

What you call Artificial swarming I call shook swarming. Just difference in terminology. No big deal.


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## squarepeg

good thread clay, many thanks.


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## AR1

Clayton Huestis said:


> We just have a difference in terminology. Artificial swarming is when the queen is taken with the split, leaving the other half queenless. This is opposed to a queenless split where a cell or queen is added after. I make my artificial swarm splits with 2 frames of capped brood and one honey and a couple shakes of bees. This leaves the remaining unit a nice cell builder. It is important to let the cell builder make the queen cells first then a week later break into nucs. Done the opposite way leads to terrible queens. Have to always work with strength.
> 
> What you call Artificial swarming I call shook swarming. Just difference in terminology. No big deal.


This is what I did last summer and it worked very well to make a handful of splits off one swarm that came in May. By July they were strong so I took the queen and some capped brood into a nuc and left the original in place, queenless. They produced cells on several different frames and each frame that had a cell went into a new nuc. Only one later needed a new frame of brood to re-try, and that one took. 

This amounts to a double brood break for each colony. I saw not one mite all year, even in the alcohol wash.


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## Swarmhunter

Clayton- Finally- Someone in my latitude that is doing what I've been looking for. There is a great group of TF beekeepers using this forum to keep in contact with each other, but most of them are in the southern regions of the country. I'm not saying that's a bad thing- but their timeline is quite a bit different then here. I'm in the N.E. corner of Iowa. Looking at your calendar write-up in your first post- you look about the same as me. May build up.
I've been using Mel's OTS for making a few Nucs to sell every year year but this is the first year I'm going to do both May and July. I've got 18 hives that I'll be splitting in May , half are in 8 frame and half in 10 frame. I essentially had decided to do just about what you are doing, except the 10 frame ones that I'll be splitting will be my production hives and I'm going to use Walt Wrights checkerboarding (not opening the broad nest) and harvesting in July before the July OTS.
I'm glad I read your thread this morning and I hope this finds you healthy and bees are building up great. I'd like to know how your season is going. Any advise you could give would be appreciated.
Have a good day. Cloudy and 46 degrees this morning.
Jerry


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## GregB

Swarmhunter said:


> Clayton- *Finally- Someone in my latitude *that is doing what I've been looking for. ......Jerry


Well, well...


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## Swarmhunter

Sorry Greg shouldn't of went with that broad a statement- 
Jerry


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## Swarmhunter

Greg- Are your bees building up this Spring as fast as they normally do? Every year is different- When do you think your first splits will be done?
Jerry


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## GregB

Swarmhunter said:


> Greg- Are your bees building up this Spring as fast as they normally do? Every year is different- When do you think your first splits will be done?
> Jerry


I only can say about my sole survivors - no.
These bees are not quick builders anyway, but especially this crappy spring they are slow - April 30th day, no fruit tree bloom yet, dandelion barely starting up, cold/wet/both.
I consider these to be good Northern bees (the Southern imports here are probably ready to swarm, crowded in their boxes already).

They only sit on 6 frames last I checked about a week ago - did not pull any frames out as these are feisty bees to poke my nose around.
I say about a month before I consider them for QC project starting up - early June.


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## Earthboy

GregV said:


> Well, well...


Clayton- Finally- Someone in my latitude that is doing what I've been looking for. 

This was a sharp observation, indeed. Although I do not have any source to cite, overall as you move up north, it seems, the mites are getting more difficult to handle--granted in the south, there are constant flux of AHB strains, making mite-resistant possible, if not easier. Can someone point out a study that correlates the cold temperature with mite propagation? Carnica is common in the north and perhaps, unlike Italians in warmer temperature like Cerana, is it harder for Carnis to handle this "southern" pathogen they have never experienced before?


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## Earthboy

Clayton Huestis said:


> Greg I had kept bees there since I was 10yrs old. It was my home yard I wasn't moving away. Been there for 30 yrs or so in 2016. Like I said I changed what I was doing. If you can't flex and change in your beekeeping it won't be long before you get in trouble. They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results..... It was time for change and I embrace it.


Clay, I am wondering if you are the same beek around NY, who has been using three deep brood chamber method known as "Unlimited Brood Chamber," as I seem to recall someone with your name who was here around 2007 or so. Just wondering and if you are good to see you again.


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## Clayton Huestis

I used to use the handle clay2720 back when I was a moderator here. When I didn't have time for that anymore (2007) my handle was switched to my current one. I have been a member here for 21 years now. I prefer ULBN for my management. But I have tried just about every configuration at this point for 10 frame hives.


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## Oldtimer

ULBN?

EDIT - Oh, I get it. Unlimited brood nest


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## drummerboy

Wow! What a great thread. Glad I found it...thanks to GregB from another thread. 

Some of the advise offered has already been implemented in our bee yard, some (new to me) will be added in the future. 

Despite being an old thread; Many 'Thanks' to the above contributors are in order.


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## A Novice

Agree with Drummerboy.

I like Clayton's method. It reminds me of a line from the original Toy Story movie:

“That wasn't flying. That was falling with style.”

You don't somehow get the mites and bees to live together in harmony, or breed frankenbees that eat mites. You just never give the mites enough time to get the upper hand.

This method will work, provided you want to expand/sell bees. A bit more challenging for someone who hits their practical maximum at 6 colonies.

What does the acronym OTS stand for? And what is meant by the term notched?

I lose track of all the splits, but it looks like some colonies get split 3 times and others twice. I am not sure why there are 11 colonies from the original artificial swarms. It gets confusing.

I assume that when all queens are killed in July, the colonies are allowed to requeen themselves. This provides a brood break and new queens.

As you would expect, the honey production is pretty modest with this much splitting, and I expect that a lot of feeding would be necessary unless there is a strong fall flow. Sugar is cheap.


For me, since I see neither virtue nor vice in treating, just looking for how to be a lazy and undisciplined beekeeper without losing my bees, this method looks like too much discipline and work, it is easier to treat. However, I can see how it could work OK.

I will say that the description of new beekeepers in the first post is a bit different than what I have seen.

I have gotten 4 people started having bees.

None of them believed most of what I told them.

All wanted to be treatment free.

What I told them was

Your bees will have mites.
Unless you deal with them effectively, your bees will all die, if not in the fall, by spring.
Choose standard equipment, because most everything you do will be easier with standard equipment.
Learn about bees, spend time in your hives, read everything you can.
Until you know how to spot a good vs bad brood pattern, a drone vs a worker, pollen from sealed brood, etc. Don't think about treatment free. Once you know something about what you are doing you will be able to try TF.

Of the 4, three are hopeless. One woman broke her glasses and didn't want to get new ones because she only needed them for reading. Imagine trying to keep bees blind. I couldn't understand how she couldn't tell drone brood from worker brood. She kept bees three years practically blind, and didn't understand why it was a problem. One man left his hives wide open and got angry when they were robbed out. Full entrance, top and bottom. I told him specifically, repeatedly to close his entrances down. One guy got a warre hive, didn't treat, and thinks his bees absconded. I would be more positive about this all, except these 3 are now in their third or 4th year, and still making the same mistakes. Because they know what they are doing. It is amazing to me. I tell them plainly, repeatedly, pointedly. They pay no attention. None of them can take a hive apart and diagnose it. Not even close. Another guy, who kept bees in a bee-pod (they died, of course) gave me a call bc there was a swarm in his house. I did a cutout for him, and he put them on drawn comb in his beepod (horizontal top bar hive, about $1200) Nice swarm, maybe 6 pounds of bees and a marked queen, looked Italian. Talked to him last week, he didn't really know what was going on in his hive, but they are way short of honey for the winter. I suggested he needed to get feed to them, and that he should treat for mites, as it didn't sound like they had built up as much as I would expect. He texted me he was giving them a dose of powdered sugar. Might work,,,,
The last guy might actually become a beekeeper. He is about half a mile from a 20 hive apiary, so TF will be challenging for him. In the spring I will suggest he do a split on his hive if it makes it. I think he could do a split.

It isn't just that wannabeekeepers get bad advice. It is that they don't have any idea what they are doing, and don't really want help because beekeeping is easy and they know how to do it.


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## ursa_minor

A Novice said:


> It isn't just that wannabeekeepers get bad advice. It is that they don't have any idea what they are doing, and don't really want help because beekeeping is easy and they know how to do it.


So true we could devote a whole thread to this. A keeper I am helping is on their 3rd year of bees, all previous died in winter IMO because there was no attempt at mite treatment until late Sept. with Apivar. I told them that in our area we need mite treatments by August 15, no go.


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## crofter

@ A Novice;

Pretty comprehensive advice for beginners! 
The fixation with "natural" and "treatment free" is probably pretty common. They require so much unlearning or deprogramming that I would have little patience with. A clean slate would be much, much less work!

I had a different experience with two people I am mentoring, but they both come from farm backgrounds and are equipment mechanics and pretty fair carpenters. Far more pragmatic than ideological. I have commented on how satisfying they are to teach. Teaching keeners is fun.


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## Rader Sidetrack

A Novice said:


> What does the acronym OTS stand for?


"On The Spot" [queen rearing]

See: 





Beekeeping Book & Queen Rearing Tips - International Mating Nuc


Mel Disselkoen’s beekeeping book helps beginner to advanced beekeepers master OTS Queen rearing, bee colony survival, and ways to combat varroa mites.



www.mdasplitter.com


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## A Novice

crofter said:


> @ A Novice;
> 
> Pretty comprehensive advice for beginners!
> The fixation with "natural" and "treatment free" is probably pretty common. They require so much unlearning or deprogramming that I would have little patience with. A clean slate would be much, much less work!
> 
> I had a different experience with two people I am mentoring, but they both come from farm backgrounds and are equipment mechanics and pretty fair carpenters. Far more pragmatic than ideological. I have commented on how satisfying they are to teach. Teaching keeners is fun.


Yup.

It seemed simple to me when I started.
Once in a while I got surprised. First time I did a mite check for instance.
But I started on my own, no real guidance. Asked a few questions from a guy who is a pretty good beekeeper, and paid attention to the answers.
Of course, I am a farmer's son, and my dad kept bees when I was quite small, though not very successfully.

The one guy who is doing OK was a carpenter, and pretty smart. Other than a problem with robbing he has done quite well this year, and most of it he figured out on his own. I think his remaining hive will make it through the winter, and if not I will give him bees in the spring if I have to spare.


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## A Novice

Rader Sidetrack said:


> "On The Spot" [queen rearing]
> 
> See:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beekeeping Book & Queen Rearing Tips - International Mating Nuc
> 
> 
> Mel Disselkoen’s beekeeping book helps beginner to advanced beekeepers master OTS Queen rearing, bee colony survival, and ways to combat varroa mites.
> 
> 
> 
> www.mdasplitter.com


Thanks. Very helpful.


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