# Who builds their own frames from scratch?



## adg72484 (Nov 22, 2015)

Does anyone build their own frames? I built my own frames last winter and it was a very pain staking process with about 40 cuts per frame. Just wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks to help the process. I used 2x10 and 2x8 for the side bars... I am not sure this is the best cut of wood to use?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Yes, there are a lot of cuts to make good quality frames. I have not found a good way to reduce the number of cuts significantly, but I have figured out to cut a large number of frames at one time so I can set up the saw and make the same cut on 300 top bars at one time. Also, several of the cuts on a frame are mirror images so that the wood can be flipped either 90 or 180 degrees and repeat the cut with the same settings.

This might be worth reading. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?325985


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

See this thread from the FAQ forum that links more 'frame component manufacturing' threads:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?318714-Frame-Component-Manufacturing


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## adg72484 (Nov 22, 2015)

Thank you! That is exactly what I was looking for. I almost pulled the trigger and bought frames this year but I know I have the tools and skills to do it. I don't consider my time as part of the cost as it will be winter and I won't have anything better to do. Instead of spending $250 for 200 frames I will likely spend $50 for 200 frames.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

adg....
I build my frames using the free plans from bee scource. Before I built any, I watched lots of others on you tube build frames. I did see some short cuts and don't believe some of them would hurt in any way. The only short cut I used on any of mine was to not make the slot on the side bars for the bottom bar of the frame. I only did this on a some. I also am not using glue any more like I did in the beginning. In the end though, I am copd or something cause I make them just like the free plan says to make them. I think some of the short cuts shown on you tube could be incorporated with out harm but I haven't been able to make myself use them yet. 
Good luck
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

adg....
I build my frames using the free plans from bee scource. Before I built any, I watched lots of others on you tube build frames. I did see some short cuts and don't believe some of them would hurt in any way. The only short cut I used on any of mine was to not make the slot on the side bars for the bottom bar of the frame. I only did this on a some. I also am not using glue any more like I did in the beginning. In the end though, I am copd or something cause I make them just like the free plan says to make them. I think some of the short cuts shown on you tube could be incorporated with out harm but I haven't been able to make myself use them yet. 
Good luck
gww


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I build narrow frames for my brood nest I use small cell foundation . It's not that hard to set up a saw to do a couple of hundred parts at a time.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I am glad this was posted. I reread all the links that rader posted and found something I had missed. A way to use a jointer for the side bars. Can't wait to try it. I have been doing whole block and using the table saw and making two cuts to get side bar taper. The jointer is a good Ideal I think.
gww


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## MT204 (May 12, 2011)

Here are 2 of the better videos on making frames that I have ran across.
I would agree on the jointer. 
If you have a wide enough (6") jointer one can take the block and run it part way through on both sides then cut into pieces on the tables saw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Zx4uRQx9k&feature=youtu.be part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZoB6c-kuuc&feature=youtu.be part 2


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you do build frames using the Beesource plans, you may notice (as I did) that the dimension shown of the upper dado in the end bars does _not_ fully accommodate the thickness of the top bar. At first I thought it was an oversight on Barry's part, but when I asked him about that, I was told that that was a _design feature_.

The top bar is designed to be slightly higher than the tops of the end bars so that one may scrape the top of the top bar with a hive tool and be less likely to catch on one of the ears of the end bars during the scraping process. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Here is how I make mine, just 1/2" thick strips of 3/4" pine board works fine, with map pins for spacing:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290728-Home-made-frames

I have no problems with them and I use two bamboo sticks instead of wiring them.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Rader


> If you do build frames using the Beesource plans, you may notice (as I did) that the dimension shown of the upper dado in the end bars does _not_ fully accommodate the thickness of the top bar


Dang. I almost wish you hadn't mentioned this. I apparently do not measure very well cause I usually just scrafice a peice or two cutting the depth till it came out even and then cutting the rest. I have about three hundred made wrong. I am guessing but haven't been at it for too long that the worst case is that the space between the bars might be wrong enough that the bees tie the boxes together. I was with a guy in spring that when we opened his hives with bought frames to make a split, we exposed a lot of drone larva in that area, so it they build there any way, maby it won't cause me long term problims (I hope).
You are on the ball in noticing these things and my hat is off to you for making sure I notice them also.

MT204
I will watch your vidios now.
Cheers
gww


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_gww_, I didn't discover the top bar height issue/_design feature_ through my ... umm ... ultra-precision woodwork ... I found that issue when was adding up the plan dimensions while planning the cutting jigs I was going to prepare, prior to making frame components.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

There is no way to reduce the number of cuts. all of them need to be made. Unless you can figure out how to do without some contour of the frame. As for faster. Yes tons of tips and tricks. Way to many to try and post. We have made hundreds of them. reduced time and effort to near minimum without making up some sort of gang contraption that makes every cut necessary in a single pass. And bottom line, they are still not worth the time it takes to make them.

As for end bars. I make them fro any 2X material cut and shape them as 2X material then slice them to thickness on a radial arm saw. about as fast as I have found to do them. as for the rest of the cuts. set up jigs. I make jigs that make it impossible to get your hand in contact with the saw blades and then just feed pieces through the jig. A frame in the end requires seconds to actually make but still when you are making hundreds. it amounts to a lot of time in set up, feeding and assembling. Like a full time job of it. Or I can sell a hive and buy the parts ready made. hundreds of frames in minutes. Now you may spend days getting a hive sold. but it is a lot easier work than days in the shop. Plus I don't spend every minute for days selling a hive. I am free to get many other things done in addition. I fix vehicles. design OA vaporizers. spend time with family. draw. play my guitar and do volunteer work as some ad is selling my hive. Plus I have a full time job for now. My time counts and I use it as such. And my time is worth a lot more than a few hundred frames that cost me two or three days to make. 

The bad news is that there is a lot of wood in a 2X that is not good enough to be frames when it is all said and done. a lot of them end up warped or weak. Buying them somebody else culled out a lot of the bad stuff.


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

If I May,

Over the past few years I have crafted over 100 specialty frames using the band saw. This method takes a little practice to notch out the connecting parts but it allows you to make unique frames to cradle queen cages, hold queen cells, sequester a queen, and many other test notions. I am using 3 to 6 queen cup holders on 1/2 frame medium frames to graft into to allow for a few queen cells in the "baby nuc box" and a lot of other unique projects that are just not available through the supply catalogs. Two years ago I cut a bunch of frame sides out on the table saw after using the dado to cut the profile in the ends. I was not pleased with this method and started using the band saw which provided a much more desirable product. I used to put them together with glue and a staple gun but have since gone back to using various sized nails along with wood glue. 

I am retired and have a lot more time than I did when I was employed. Some times it is just better to purchase, especially if "time is money." I get a whole lot of enjoyment being productive and being able to "run with my ideas." I even enjoy making my own mistakes and blunders. Making your own frames is certainly not "cost effective" if you are busy or have other pressing things going on, such as raising children, civic, or religious obligations. I am also a lifelong knife maker and as such have belt grinding equipment to assist shaping the side frames and cleaning up the edges and corners of the frames. If I were to put a $$ amount value on my time the outcome would be most dismal. A part time job at 7-11 would more than outweigh the shop time to acquire the bee rearing equipment. I must admit that I really like to go out into my dumpy "bee Lab" and putter.

I hope this adds some clarity to this thread. Best wishes, LP


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

I build my own frames. I am retired so time is worth nothing. I enjoy doing wood working so making frames is not work and if not making frames I would be making saw dust for some other project. My main reason is frames of pine are weak and prone to break off ears or glue side bars together with propolis and damage the sides of the bars when you pull frames. I make top bars from oak or ash or rarely maple. End bars are tulip or stronger. Bottom bars are pine. It is easier to work harder woods to good precision so things fit and glue real well. Finished frames are really strong. I get all the wood for next to nothing by cutting my own trees and having them milled into boards. Takes a couple of years for stacked and stickered boards to be dry enough unless you have them under a roof. The key to being efficient is to do one set up and make 200 or 500 cuts. I make top bars 250 at a time. Double that for end bars. Bottom bars from pine come from rescued packing crates. Frames made of these woods are plenty strong with just Titebond II glue. I do not nail anything. Assemble in a jig that holds a dozen frames and let them stand for three hours and the glue will be set. If you want more than 24 a day make two frame making jigs. You could do all this with a table saw, a router table and a planer if they are all good quality tools with sharp cutters and tuned properly. You could get by without the router but will not get the precision cuts every time I demand and will either be trimming some parts with knife or chisel or putting a shim in to get tight glue joints. The one suggestion I would make is to cut the slots in the top bars for the ears on the end bars 1/8 narrower than standard plans and of course cut the top slot in the end bars 1/8 less than plans. This gives more glue surface on the end bar ears. Glue is stronger than wood.

If you value your time at minimum wage buy them ready to assemble. It probably takes me 15 hours to make 250 frames not including assembly, nor time to cut and mill the logs into lumber and stack and sticker it for drying. The truth is if I needed 1000 frames a year I would buy them and put up with pine frames. In that case I would nail them as well as gluing them.


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## HillBilly2 (Jul 26, 2015)

Thank you Richard, I too am retired and planning on making frames this winter. And I can agree it is cheaper to buy them, and did just buy some, but I want to do something similar using some red oak boards I have. I have my own design for some foundationless frames of course, just to be different.

Having mangled up a couple of fingers this summer when a piece of wood kicked back on me, I would especially like to see examples of framemaking jigs or sleds to help prevent that happening again. I hope that fits in with the OP's outline.

Thanks!


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## adg72484 (Nov 22, 2015)

HillBilly2 said:


> Thank you Richard, I too am retired and planning on making frames this winter. And I can agree it is cheaper to buy them, and did just buy some, but I want to do something similar using some red oak boards I have. I have my own design for some foundationless frames of course, just to be different.
> 
> Having mangled up a couple of fingers this summer when a piece of wood kicked back on me, I would especially like to see examples of framemaking jigs or sleds to help prevent that happening again. I hope that fits in with the OP's outline.
> 
> Thanks!


Thanks for all the replies! This has definitely been an excellent learning thread. I am certainly open to seeing what people have made for jigs to help with frames components. I think we can all agree that when you factor in time, its "cheaper" to buy them. Having said that, I also feel it is cheaper on my bank account to build them. One thing I have learned in my first year of beekeeping is this hobby is not cheap. I am planning on expanding from 3 hives to 10 next spring so I will also be building deeps and medium boxes to support 7 more hives. This will leave plenty of scraps for frame components.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

HillBilly2 said:


> T
> 
> Having mangled up a couple of fingers this summer when a piece of wood kicked back on me, I would especially like to see examples of framemaking jigs or sleds to help prevent that happening again. I hope that fits in with the OP's outline.
> 
> Thanks!


Kick back happens when you have a piece trapped between the fence and blade. The only bee hive cuts I make that are like that are rip cuts. I use hold downs made from a 2x4 plus a spacer hunk the thickness of the board I am cutting glued to the bottom back end of the 2x4. Turn a handle or two as needed and add to the top of the 2x4. Keeps your hands away from the blade and stops kick backs. I do not rip anything less than about four feet by six inches without a hold down board. Also, tune the saw and regularly check to make sure it is still tuned and keep the blade sharp. Never seen a saw yet that was tuned new from the box. Have not had a kick back in many years. If you think a table saw can kick back do not even think of using a radial arm saw for ripping. They are way worse if you are not careful.


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