# nucs and packages



## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

a little about him:

from: http://mainebeekeepers.org/beekeeping-resources/beekeeping-equipment-and-bees/
Royal Bees and Honey MSBA Member
Package bees, 5-frame nucs,
Queens: Italian & Carniolan
Matt Roy
219 Back Nippen Road
Buxton, ME 04093
(207) 229-9125
[email protected]

He does some Maine blueberry pollination.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

I bought 3 nucs from him in late June 2015. I didn't find much info. on him. I took the risk to avoid hours of extra driving. I'm new to beekeeping. I guess it's my 2nd year, but lets say its my 1st. 

a little about me:
- all mediums
- I made most of my stuff (if you exclude frames).
- mostly foundationless
- Screened bottom boards: I plan on using these for colonies I don't trust yet. When I breed bees that I know are hygienic, I'll use solid bottom boards.
- drawer stands for the SBBs. I made 5 of these out of pvc foam. Making these was probably a mistake (not time efficient/environmental).
- I made top covers with r-5 foam hidden in a plywood sandwich.
- I have a treatment free goal. I'm willing to use treatment to get there. When I use treatment, I want something that won't linger, or leave a lasting residue. When I believe the treatment is gone, I'll kill that colony's queen, and combine/requeen.
- propper hive ecology: I killed 4 bumblebees (a 1 time thing) and stuck them in my 2 healthiest hives. I swap frames between healthy colonies. I'll swap frames with a treated colony, once the treatment is gone.

I know I was a bit late to buy bees, but here's my plan:

- Raise my 5 colonies (3 northern nucs from Matt, and 2 swarms).
- Try to promote tough northern genetics, and good hive ecology.
- Buy southern packages early next year.
- Start each package with a small # of drawn frames.
- no feeding unless its needed
- breed local queens from my nucs
- trade queens
- requeen


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*



SeaCucumber said:


> .
> - propper hive ecology: I killed 4 bumblebees (a 1 time thing) and stuck them in my 2 healthiest hives.


What's that about?

Wayne


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

About the bees I bought: I paid $165/nuc. He said they're northern bees. Each nuc had 5 medium frames, and a little bit of extra bees were shaken in my boxes. I brought my own boxes. When each nuc was made, I could see the queen laying. The colors of the queens were very different from each other. I got a big free elderberry bush, and a free broken pitchfork.

The colors of the queens I got:
1. all black
2. yellow orange
3. brown orange

Its been 1 month since I got the bees. All the colonies are lively, and they've been producing fast enough. 2 of my hives are super healthy (the hives with queens 1 and 3). 3 weeks ago, I gave hives 1 and 3 some dead bumblebees, and swapped a frame between them. Each time I visit them, they have fewer mites on the bottom drawer. Last time, I visited them after >1 week. They both had <5 mites on the bottom drawer. Hive 2 has a mite problem. There were >100 mites on the drawer. I never fed hive 2 a bumblebee, or swapped frames with it. I sugar dusted it 3 weeks ago. I think I'll kill its queen and sugar dust it this week. I would eventually combine it with one of my swarms. Both my swarms and hive/queen 2 have bees of the same color.

My conclusion: I think I would recommend Matt. I will know after this winter. I'll be stacking/bundling all my colonies together.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

The hives were healthy, I thought it couldn't hurt. I heard that bumblebees share some of the same digestive microbes. I've got to make sure that all my bees have the beneficial organisms they need, and that any colony that can't withstand disease gets requeened.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*



SeaCucumber said:


> The hives were healthy, I thought it couldn't hurt. I heard that bumblebees share some of the same digestive microbes. I've got to make sure that all my bees have the beneficial organisms they need, and that any colony that can't withstand disease gets requeened.


what beneficial organisms do they need? how do you know they don't already have them? what do the honey bees do with dead bumblebees to obtain these beneficial microbes?

maybe it's time to start looking for some microbe/organism that will do in those mites.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*



clyderoad said:


> ... what do the honey bees do with dead bumblebees to obtain these beneficial microbes?


Nothing. The bees will drag the carcass and dump it outside, just as they do when they kill a bumblebee intruder.

Wayne


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

Keep in mind that this was a 1 time thing, and I don't like killing bumblebees. I might raise some in the future. Here's what happens with the bumblebee. I squish it, and place it in the hive such that a worker has to drag it a long distance to the entrance, infecting bees along the way. Perhaps it did nothing, but the 2 hives I did this with are extremely healthy now.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*



SeaCucumber said:


> I heard that bumblebees share some of the same digestive microbes.


Please share with us this information.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*



clyderoad said:


> what beneficial organisms do they need? how do you know they don't already have them?


I don't have time to learn all the beneficials. I did see a video of a mite eating varroa. Foreign chemicals change the hive environment, and can throw of the balance of organisms.

Humans have lots of beneficial organisms. I learned of many cases where people take strong antibiotics, get a C. diff. infection, and die. Some of them come close to death, and get saved by a fecal transplant.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

Your assumption seems to be that no beneficial microbes/organisms exist in the colony and need to be supplemented. And the supplement will be transferred to the honey bees by the squished bumblebee. 
what evidence are you basing your ideology on? there must be some evidence, it can't be just because it sounds good to you or you think something should happen.

How does Matt Roy fit into the equation ?

all this sounds a little far fetched and odd to me. you'll have to explain in some detail.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*



clyderoad said:


> what beneficial organisms do they need? how do you know they don't already have them? what do the honey bees do with dead bumblebees to obtain these beneficial microbes?


I'm a new beek. I noticed that whenever I mention hive ecology, the bulk of the responses I get are from "hive ecology trolls". These are people who expect me to spend the time to learn/cite everything, and know all the organisms and their interactions in a hive. Go to pubmed.gov and plos.org. Find the articles.

Here's what the dead bumblebees could do:
1. nothing
2. introduce a disease that hurts my colony: This is beneficial because now I know that I have inferior genetics that need replacement.
3. introduce helpful organisms


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

The biggest part of my beekeeping journey will be learning to spot "hive ecology trolls", and avoid having to answer all their questions. Hive ecology is a basic part of cheap sustainable beekeeping. Lets stop talking about this, and only talk about our consumer experience from Matt Roy.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

Easy to call members trolls when you have a hard time answering their questions. You might try some garlic and facing the hive entrance in some mystical direction as well. Might help!


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*



SeaCucumber said:


> The biggest part of my beekeeping journey will be learning to spot "hive ecology trolls", and avoid having to answer all their questions.


How do you expect to have a civil conversation on a forum such as this when you call folks asking reasonable questions trolls?


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*



Barry said:


> Easy to call members trolls when you have a hard time answering their questions. You might try some garlic and facing the hive entrance in some mystical direction as well. Might help!


You should try answering their questions. Their questions are vague, and often can't be answered in less than 5,000 words. 

example: "what beneficial organisms do they need?"

How could I possibly know the answer unless I spent my whole life finding the answer to that question. Its like asking how the universe works, or how the human body works. Doctors will spend years learning about the human body, and I've never heard of one who understands it. Whenever I mention hive ecology, I'm bombarded by vague questions and the expectation that I know everything, or have the time to research everything.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

Previously, I distinctly remember you saying that you crushed them up in water and sprayed your bees with them. Not just placed them in the hive.

Here's the quote:


SeaCucumber said:


> Tim gave me an idea. I just got some bees. I killed a bumblebee, mixed it in some filtered water, and sprayed it on my new bees. Later, I plan on killing 3 more bumblebees, squishing them, and adding them to each of my 3 new colonies. My bumblebees look extremely healthy. I think this couldn't hurt, and its a one time thing for the greater good. I will boost some bumblebee colonies.


From this thread: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...al-experiences-studies)&p=1287147#post1287147

It's this kind of witch doctory that new folks read, believe to be gospel, and then go do thinking it makes sense from some perverse idea of doing what's right for the bees. It's not that different from people reading "shake your package in and close them up, check on them in a week for a laying queen" and then literally shaking the package in, closing the entire hive, and then a week later finding three pounds of dead bees. Everyone knows that honey bees frequently take baths in the juices of dead bumblebees when living in trees treatment free.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

I guess the part I find amusing is that since you do not have time to learn, you simply make it up and present it here as some sort of science or fact or rule and call it "propper [sic] hive ecology" though lack the information to support the ideas you hold.

If "hive ecology troll" means people expecting odd claims to be supported by facts, then you will find most forum members and thinking people everywhere will fall into that category.

Oddly, though, I do find your idea of a ritualistic sacrifice of bumblebees for the good of the hive to be strangely interesting.

Wayne


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*



SeaCucumber said:


> Each nuc had 5 medium frames, and a little bit of extra bees were shaken in my boxes. I brought my own boxes. When each nuc was made,
> My conclusion: I think I would recommend Matt. I will know after this winter. I'll be stacking/bundling all my colonies together.


The nucs were made "Johnny on the Spot"? Why wait till after winter? Was it an overwintered nuc? What about bee keeper error?


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

This thread is odd to me. Also, if I kill 3 bumblebees for some experiment, I wouldn't care what people said. You keep saying it was a one time deal as we would troll all over that fact. Catch and squish as many as you want. I kill more than one honeybee everyday.


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## mbevanz (Jul 23, 2012)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

Poor Matt Roy got drug into this.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The bumblebee theory is interesting and you should buy ten or twenty nucs and try the same test again. Take notes and watch them and write a book on bumblebee insemination of honeybee hives. 

Hive ecology troll? Are you making this stuff up or what? 
Could you site a reference please?


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## Blessed Farms (Jun 12, 2012)

opcorn:

I hate to be called a troll also but... Why would you swap frames between two hives that are doing well? And why should you kill queen #2? If you squish a bumblebee to expose the flourishing microbes from its' gut, exposing them to air, can a honeybee that comes along drinking up the gut juices still obtain viable microbes?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*



clyderoad said:


> what beneficial organisms do they need? how do you know they don't already have them? what do the honey bees do with dead bumblebees to obtain these beneficial microbes?
> 
> maybe it's time to start looking for some microbe/organism that will do in those mites.


Maybe it is time for Sea-Cucumber to go to bee-school and find a mentor. Newbees are always doing weird stuff. I know I do. The dead bumblebees is a really good one though.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*



Barry said:


> Easy to call members trolls when you have a hard time answering their questions. You might try some garlic and facing the hive entrance in some mystical direction as well. Might help!


The garlic should be hung in the hive entrance. Mites are vampires. While you are at it a silver cross wouldn't hurt.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

Proving xerces position that beekeepers are bad for the native bees.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*



SeaCucumber said:


> The biggest part of my beekeeping journey will be learning to spot "hive ecology trolls", and avoid having to answer all their questions. Hive ecology is a basic part of cheap sustainable beekeeping. Lets stop talking about this, and only talk about our consumer experience from Matt Roy.


the biggest part of your beekeeping journey will be understanding bees in measurable ways.

when someone wants to talk the talk they are going to be asked to walk the walk: back up some of the vague terminology and concepts they introduced. this occurs in all fields and is not unique to beekeeping. you have that to learn too!

"hive ecology trolls"? give me a break. am I expected to swallow your hocus pocus without questioning?
you apparently operate that way but most do not.
I don't think you know what the heck you're talking about regarding bees, queens, nucs, beneficial organisms, ecology, colony health, etc. Stop blaming others for your short comings.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

SeaCucumber,
When you present your own opinion as FACT, you had better have a stack of peer reviewed studies to back that up.

Frankly, I think you must be smoking something real strong.

I'm curious, do you plan to put these nucs into a Flow™ hive?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

It's a reeeeaaallllly big stretch to go from the well-known fact that, _occasionally_, human treatment with antibiotics results in subsequent C. diff. infections needing a fecal transplant to the hypothesis that killing bumblebees and spreading their gut flora around (by whatever means) in a honey bee colony will have some kind of positive, presumably prophylactic, effect. 

So, absent some theoretical references, even just a link to "some dude on the internet's" website where it is discussed or proposed, it's natural that other beeks are curious about how the OP came up with such a strikingly odd idea in the first place. Some scientific references would be even better, of course. 

Don't get me wrong, I am not at all a hive-ecology troll, as you put it. I think there is a lot we do not yet know about the crucial role tiny organisms play in all life forms. It's a fascinating subject, but I don't think understanding of it is helped along without using the same tools of rigorous inquiry that characterize "conventional" scientific method. So when a new idea floats by me (and the bumblebee thing is new to me) I naturally want to know why and what lead up to it. That's what others seem to be interested in, as well. 

Is the idea behind the bumblebee puree that bumblebees share a lot, but not all, of their gut microflora with honey bees but don't seem to get varroa, so maybe in the small differences in gut biota there is something that would repel varroa on honey bees if the novel bumblebee gut microflora could become established in the honey bee? That would seem a stretch to me, as I would think the extremely different pupation cycles would account for most of difference in varroa preadtion since varroa mites are an obligate parasite of honeybee pupae. And I don't think honey bee pupation cycles would be fundamentally influenced by a change in their gut microflora, no matter what the orginal source.

If only conquering mites was as easy as killing some hapless bumblebees and spreading their remains around.

Maybe I'm just not getting the point, however. So, please explain!

Enj.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

Hi, my name is Frank and I am a hive ecology troll. Perhaps I could be made whole again though if someone healthy were to annoint me with the various body fluids! 

My bees are healthy though.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

Let me get this straight, please correct me if I'm wrong.
You innocculate the hive with the gut bacteria (and other microbes, including yeasts and virus) of a bumblebee. If the hive grows strong, the BB gut flora scheme worked, solely because of the poor smashed bumbler, and for no other reason, such as a strong healthy queen, good forage availability, a strong foraging population, and other good growth factors. If the hive gets sick with the foreign gut flora (and other microbes) for which they (a completely different species) have no native resistance, the queen is weak and therefore responsible, so must be killed and replaced. :scratch:

Following that logic, every time a child gets ill, the mother should be replaced.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*

The internet cuts both ways. It is a place to gather ideas and thoughts. It is a place to express ideas and thoughts. It offers the comfort of relative anonymity coupled with a potentially "unlimited" audience. The very thought of this perfect storm is intoxicating to some.

They become funnier than they are. Smarter than they are. More opinionated than they are. More outgoing and outspoken than they really are... It's a breeding ground for all sorts of oddities to be showcased. I don't mean this in a negative way as it's a unique thing to experience. Having been a member of many many forums over the years, these types of posts and goofy ideas are very common. Beekeeping has it's own twist because it doesn't take much before you've got a million fairly resilient creatures at your disposal. Start doing weird things to them and before long you can convince yourself that your jacking around with them actually caused them to be successful. Your 10x10 flower bed saved them! You caught a swarm of "german black bees"! Your bees are completely isolated from every other bee colony because "there are no bees here"! Monsanto killed them when your box is empty in November and now... your Bumblebee Eau De Toilette has righted all of the wrongs of modern beekeeping and the insect that has been flying and breeding and living and dying for "eons" will be saved because you ground up a bumblebee and squirted it in your hive because the bacteria in their gut has been restored!

I'm not a seasoned veteran, but the amount of uninformed new beekeepers out there has been absolutely staggering to me. And the amount of uninformed new beekeepers who think they're saving the bees or the planet in general is perhaps more staggering. Can't you just like to keep bees and enjoy watching life happen before your eyes? I snag monarch eggs off of milk weed plants in my backyard and place them in jars, feed them as the larva grows, clean up after them. Watching them form chrysalises and eventually letting them fly off into the air is enjoyable to me and it is helping me to teach my daughter about life and how awesome it can be. She loves her bugs and at less than three years old could tell you that the butterfly we just let go was an egg, then "he's so little and cute" caterpillar, than a "woah, a big cat-a-piller!", then a chrysalis... I'm not saving the monarchs, or saving the planet, or doing anything other than bringing a bit of nature into my house and observing its occurrence on top of my fridge. Not much different than bees, except there are no bees on top of our fridge... yet.

For some people it just HAS to be more. They have to be fixing something, or saving something, or righting some wrong. Their opinions and experiences are of utmost importance and more unique than yours.
These are the types of people overly worried about stray animals, fur coats, and modern farming. They are master excuse makers blaming pesticides, GMOs, corporate greed, and anything else under the sun for their failures or their kid's autism, or their acne, or their bad knees.

Everyone else is an ostrich with their head in the sand, but they, by God... have got it figured out. Just wait and see.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

*Re: nucs and packages from Matt Roy*



crofter said:


> Hi, my name is Frank and I am a hive ecology troll. Perhaps I could be made whole again though if someone healthy were to annoint me with the various body fluids!
> 
> My bees are healthy though.


Do you live under a hive ecology bridge?


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