# Insecticides



## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

*Re: Insrcticides*

They aren't at risk.


----------



## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

There is most certainly a risk. Your adult bees may not be killed but more studies are showing that pesticides do kill or damage the larvae and baby bees.

Eric Mussen, Ph.D., Entomologist and Extension Apiculturist, University of California, Davis, California: "If you have something like a fungicide, which does not hurt an adult bee when it's sprayed in the field, then they (EPA) think it's just safe for honey bees. And in some cases, that has not been the truth.
Not too long ago, I ran some experiments in the (UC-Davis) lab and found that two of the fungicides that are commonly used out here for controlling diseases on the almond trees, if you get too much of it into the laval food of honey bees, it killed the larvae.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT CURRENTLY THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HAS TESTING REGULATIONS THAT ARE APPLIED TO THE ADULT HONEY BEE, BUT YOU ARE FINDING THAT THOSE LEVELS (OF FUNGICIDE) THAT EPA ACCEPTS ARE KILLING THE BROOD AND THE YOUNG BEES.


----------



## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Roundup is actually an herbicide. It's entirely possible that there is SOME effect in large doses over time, but I don't think I've seen anything to indicate you should try to get notifications and screen in the bees on application days etc.

Another question (just to stir the pot, no one's demonstrated this either way yet) is how your bees foraging on GMO beans might affect their health long-term (the beans have been modified to be able to withstand the herbicide, while the weeds, not similarly immune, die).


----------



## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

it wont hurt them i spray it on some of my summer honey yards to keep the weeds down if the yard owners dont mind


----------



## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

There are many studies out there that show that both herbicides along with pesticides *DO* affect your bees. Do a little research. 

"One thing is clear: insecticides and herbicides are having a disastrous effect on both managed and wild bee populations. "

Taken from this article, which is just one when I searched for info under this topic.

http://www.beyondpesticides.org/photostories/week_78_7_19_06/week_78.htm


----------



## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

alpha6 said:


> Do a little research.


Ok, lets.



alpha6 said:


> "One thing is clear: insecticides and herbicides are having a disastrous effect on both managed and wild bee populations. "



What the article actually says is: "One thing is clear: insecticides and herbicides are having a disastrous effect on both managed and wild bee populations. Millions of pounds of pesticides are applied to farms, fields, lawns, flower beds, and roadsides every year. Insecticides kill pollinators directly, while *herbicides reduce the diversity and abundance of the flowering plants that pollinators feed upon*. Many pesticides degrade slowly, remaining as a lingering toxic hazard to pollinators and other wildlife." (Emphasis mine).

Taking small quotes out of context and calling it "research" does not meet the standard of research I'm afraid, and does a disservice to everyone trying to learn on Beesource. Before you roll eyes at people trying to have a factual discussion, please be prepared to have a, well a factual discussion. Can you provide some citations for your statements? Just saying "studies show" does not cut it I'm afraid... "studies showed" that CCD is caused by cell phones too but under fact-based scrutiny it doesn't hold water. The citation above actually disproves the point I believe you were trying to support, that herbicides affect honeybees directly. They do not, but affect them only by killing forage (according to your source). But by deliberately taking one statement out of context (ignoring the rest of the paragraph which didn't support your view) is not just bad form, it's actively misleading. 

The subject of this thread is "does the Roundup on the beans harm my bees" and, until you do better than that, the answer is still "nope".


----------



## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

I do not have any scientific study to support my statements, just personal observations...

No till farming is increasing in popularity in my area and I noticed a bee kill in yards where no till planting would take place in spring, especially when planting time corresponded with dandelion bloom. It was my belief that herbicides did not harm honey bees as I have sprayed around colonies. But, after some discussion with some folks more familiar with RoundUp formulations, they suggested, that a direct spray from the herbicide may be detrimental due to the compounds used to break down the waxy cuticle of plants. Keep in mind, honey bees rely on their waxy layer to prevent desiccation and anything that dissolves the waxy layer may then serve as a membrane disruptor.

Again this is just based on my observations so take it for what it is worth.

Joe


----------



## cow pollinater (Dec 5, 2007)

My experiance with roundup (heat may also play a small role here) is that the first thing that happens to a plant hit with roundup is wilt which dries up the nectar and pollen so that the bees don't pay any attention to it.
I won't tell you that roundup is safe for your bees but I will say with a fair amount of certainty that it is one of the least harmful chemicals that you will run into in farming.


----------



## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Ben,

If you read my statement you will see that I stated that I took the quote from one of MANY. I also linked the source so people could read it for themselves. I don't have time to do all the research for every topic that arises and I didn't say that one article should be considered research. However, the one article I did list suggests, as any normal thinking person would conclude, that applying any type of chemical that is designed to destroy life form be it plant or other is going to have an effect. 

These boards are to provide information and I linked mine. Where is anything to back up what you are saying or do you just belong to the naysayer crowd and seek to be argumentative. Your statement "The subject of this thread is "does the Roundup on the beans harm my bees" and, until you do better than that, the answer is still "nope". is indicative of your lack of understanding on the subject and contradicts your earlier statement when you stated "It's entirely possible that there is SOME effect in large doses over time." Make up your mind and link your source to back up THAT statement.

Just to help you along I have listed another bit of information that may ASSIST readers in becoming better informed. While it doesn't state that "Round-up specifically it does not the problems that exist with proper testing done on pesticides and "A recent presentation at the American Chemical Society's national meeting verified that dozens of pesticides - including some neonicotinoids - have been found in every aspect of life in CCD-affected honeybee colonies, from adults to larvae and across the food chain from pollen to wax. " 

I suggest that people read the whole article and not take the one statement I listed as the complete study so there is no misunderstandings. 

http://www.celsias.com/article/epa-killing-honey-bees-and-keeping-silent-colony-c/

If someone wants to use Roundup around their bees let them go at it. I personally wouldn't and don't.


----------



## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

JSL said:


> I do not have any scientific study to support my statements, just personal observations...
> 
> No till farming is increasing in popularity in my area and I noticed a bee kill in yards where no till planting would take place in spring, especially when planting time corresponded with dandelion bloom.............
> 
> ...


I have noticed the same effects in my area with the same no-till planting over dandelions in bloom. Maybe it was from the herbicide that was applied, but I doubt it. Some of my yards are sitting in unused feedlots(cattle) on concrete and I don't use round-up there but other yards I do use it. With my observations, my self applied roundup(in early june) doesn't appear to cause any problems yet the no-till planting over dandelion in bloom has(appears to have) 2 yrs. in a row.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

When looking for research into such a topic can be very interesting. 

Just one comment, not all research is conducted in an unbiased manner,


----------



## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

planting of no till does not involve herbicides until after germination. some seeds have insecticides applied as a coating and can come off during planting with pneumatic planters and potentially affect bees. 

there is no scientific evidence that roundup has any affect on bees hence the label has no warnings about pollinators REQUIRED by EPA and found on many insecticide labels. 

"Glyphosate and Beneficial Arthropods"
April 1999


http://www.biotech-info.net/glyphosate.html


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>there is no scientific evidence that roundup has any affect on bees hence the label has no warnings about pollinators 

Fact.


----------



## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Bud Dingler said:


> planting of no till does not involve herbicides until after germination.



No till planting can involve application of herbicides before PLANTING! But I don't worry about herbicides, though I believe there could be some forager loss due to the surfactants and such, as mentioned.


----------



## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

dcross said:


> No till planting can involve application of herbicides before PLANTING! .


Yes, they do it here to. Not when no-till planting over the previous years beans or corn, but when planting over pasture and crp ground that was cut short the previous fall. Many times I've seen one guy go through the field with herbicide and 2 hrs later the no-till planter goes through dusting dandelions.


----------



## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Bud Dingler said:


> some seeds have insecticides applied as a coating and can come off during planting with pneumatic planters and potentially affect bees.
> 
> ]


Bud,

I am glad to see you changed your "point of view" on this matter.


----------



## edenhillapiaries (May 25, 2008)

I use Round-Up around my hives to keep the weeds down and have seen no ill effects. I do wait until evening when the bees are in the hives to prevent spraying them directly. As someone already pointed out, gylphosate (active ingredient in Round-Up) is one of the safest materials used in agriculture today. I work in agriculture and what I have a hard time understanding is the publics resistance to GMOs. Since GMO corn has come on the seen the amount of and types of insecticides and herbicides used in corn (and other crops) have dropped dramatically. Lorsban, Furadan, even Temik I believe, and other materials were used as a matter of coarse to control corn rootworm and other pests before GMO seed became a mainstay. Round-Up becomes inactive when it hits the soil, which you cannot say about atrazine which was used much more frequently before RR Corn.

Chemicals are here to stay in modern agriculture, but the materials used today are far far safer for the environment and our bees than the ones used in "the good old days". I recently found a copy of a 1950's spray calendar and it made my hair stand up. In the "good old days" the recommendations were to use DDT, lead arsenate, Parathion, etc. on a 14 day schedule. Today the chemistries used are far more pest and life cycle specific and with a few exceptions far safer for bees. I keep bees on a commercial apple orchard year round with no problems. The grower does take more precautions such as spraying at night, etc. I know many beekeepers in the area that do the same.

For beekeeping to stay healthy and viable agriculture needs to stay healthy and viable and visa versa.

Jason


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

I Love it beeslave !!!!


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Round-Up becomes inactive when it hits the soil, which you cannot say about atrazine which was used much more frequently before RR Corn.

I dont understand why many people continue to focus on Roundup?
As Jason mentioned, there are many other chemicals that could be lobbied against, but they pick roundup?? 
Perhaps this stems from a much larger lobby effort against a particular corporate organization,


----------



## edenhillapiaries (May 25, 2008)

Ian,

In my opinion the reason Roundup gets so much attention is because it is a Monsanto product. Monsanto, for right or wrong, is viewed as evil because of it's role in spearheading GMO's and because of it's great market share. Monsanto is the Microsoft of the ag industry. Whether you like them or not they (just like Microsoft) have brought innovative products to market and (just like Microsoft) have the lions share of the markets they are in. 

It seems to me that there are folks out there so resistant to change that they will react negatively against any new technologies or practices. Agriculture has come a long way from the practices of the past, and it takes companies like Bayer, Dupont, BASF, and even Monsanto to kept American farmers competitive in this global economy and keep yields and production up so consumers can gave access to the cheap food they have become accustom to.

Jason


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>consumers can gave access to the cheap food they have become accustom to

bottom line,


----------

