# Caucasian bees



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

Georgian Mountain Gray Queen breeding project has been started. Minimum orders 50-500bequeens. for more details write me pm or shoot me an email at [email protected]. so you can order beequeens in advance.

Thanks ilia


----------



## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Can they be exported to the US?


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

We could export them but your governmet doesnt approve it, but you can come to us in summer put them in your luggage and take it away. i had a clients from Romania and they did it without problem. 

Thanks


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

eliahu said:


> We could export them but your governmet doesnt approve it, but you can come to us in summer put them in your luggage and take it away. i had a clients from Romania and they did it without problem.
> 
> Thanks


Is Romania a police state like the US though? I wouldn't be caught dead with bees in my luggage on an international flight.


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

Noone will not catch you at the airport. if they catch you they will ask you to leave them at the airport, it is not a crime. there is police in Romania but not as strict as it is in the USA and Georgia republic. My friend took away 60 queens in Iran too and romanians took 20 beequeens without problem, it is done. It does not worth to be nervous. if you are not shure. you can bring me some bees in Georgia if they catch you it means to stop. My friends brought me a queens from Romania they just checked opportunity.
Thanks Ilia


----------



## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

good luck on your venture. 2000 plane ticket buys a heck of a lot of American queens.


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

You can get a lot of pleasure in Georgia. not only for queens. we have a good history that realy worth to see and ticket cost min 1175USD from Washington DC


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

You can't take or bring potatoes into or out of the US into/out of Canada. I don't have the heart to tell the government that our dirt literally touches their dirt at the border...

We live "xray" passengers, you can't bring a nail file, or any gel or liquid greater than 3.4 ounces onto a plane. I do not believe for a moment that bringing queen bees onto a plane and not declaring them just get's you a funny look from the TSA. Those folks live for people doing stuff like that.


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

You meet Xray technology everywhere at the airport but it is a slightly a risk. . You are scared because you have never done it but many people does. nobody will not arrest you. If they catch you you will loose your beequeens only. so you can try


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jwcarlson said:


> You can't take or bring potatoes into or out of the US into/out of Canada. I don't have the heart to tell the government that our dirt literally touches their dirt at the border...


My bees gather nectar from their flowers.


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

But Caucasian bees are the strongest while gathering nectar even it is deep


----------



## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

eliahu said:


> You meet Xray technology everywhere at the airport but it is a slightly a risk. . You are scared because you have never done it but many people does. nobody will not arrest you. If they catch you you will loose your beequeens only. so you can try


So, you are suggesting that people spend a buttload of dough to get to you and buy your queens, with the risk that they might lose the queens AND their travel fare...at the least...for attempting an unauthorized and maybe illegal agricultural transfer, and possibly even end up getting arrested for it (or at least detained for some period of time)?

:doh::bus


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Mods or admin, please move this thread to the "for sale" section.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> My bees gather nectar from their flowers.


Good Lord, don't tell the border cops or we'll have to start a Go Fund Me page to help bail you out. 

It's silly isn't it? We hadn't heard the rules on our way up for one of our fishing trips years ago. We got to the border... after the IDs and everything "Do you have any potatoes?" "Yes." Those potatoes didn't make it into Canada with us.



eliahu said:


> You meet Xray technology everywhere at the airport but it is a slightly a risk. . You are scared because you have never done it but many people does. nobody will not arrest you. If they catch you you will loose your beequeens only. so you can try


I don't know how things are done in Georgia or Romania or Crimea or Zimbabwe. But I have a rough idea of the climate in the US these days... and to state that the worst that will happen is they'll take your queens away isn't a risk I'd take... It's not like a "opps, my shampoo bottle is 3.5 ounces instead of 3.4"... it's a "opps, I smuggled in a restricted agriculture product in my pants/carry-on/etc." If I had to guess, you sign a paper or pass under/past a sign somewhere that explicitly tells you you cannot do such things, and then to do them and not declare it...

You don't accidentally leave Georgia bound for the US with 50 to 500 queen bees in your pants.

Now...
All of this is moot because no one is spending thousands of dollars to come pick up some Caucasian queens and smuggle them back to the US despite the amount of pleasure they can derive from that trip.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

jwcarlson said:


> Now...
> All of this is moot because no one is spending thousands of dollars to come pick up some Caucasian queens and smuggle them back to the US despite the amount of pleasure they can derive from that trip.



Don't be so hasty, remember the lyrics

"And Moscow girls make me sing and shout
That Georgia's always on my mind"


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

You do understand incorrectly. I asked you to put even 1 queen in your pants then you leave the border of USA. . You check if they find it than buy. You seem to be scared. and Romania is a EU member country so the regulation are the same throughout the Europe.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

well I work in Argentina and rotate every 28/28 days - I would not touch this with a 15 foot pole - no matter what you want to call it - its smuggling


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

You can contact him in Romania and ask him for more details. you can find him in facebook by the name Apis donau they are queens breeders and also you can order them caucasian bees. I think it will not be a problem . he will have pure caucasian bees in summer and they also plan to do an artificial insemination. i think it is easier to import beequeens from Romania to USA.


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

Your country has a mad laws it turned out that even you cant import bee queens from Europe too. USA is a different planet I talked to my friend he said it is impssible to ship queens.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

eliahu said:


> Your country has a mad laws it turned out that even you cant import bee queens from Europe too. USA is a different planet I talked to my friend he said it is impssible to ship queens.


That's what I (we) are trying to tell you.  We can get queens from Canada for an expensive fee of some sort. That's how we get "real" Buckfast bees here... Canada imports them and we can import the daughters from Canada or some such trickery.

I know you meant no harm, eliahu, in the suggestion that you just pop some queens in your pocket. I wouldn't even risk doing it on a cross country, domestic flight here in the US. Let alone coming in from internationally. Too much at risk over some queens.


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

I just wanted to help you but it turned out that it is impossible to help you due to American laws. but you can visit me in Georgia i have a hostel too.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

It's a real clown show over here for the most part, eliahu. Good luck selling your bees!


----------



## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Maybe ship queens to New Zealand or Canada and reship from there.


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

I dont know wether it is possible to ship beequeens from Georgia to Canada or New Zealand or even from Romania to Canada or New Zealand


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My bees gather nectar from their flowers.

And some of your swarms probably end up there too...


----------



## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

I'm glad the thread stayed. 

No I don't think anyone should circumvent the law but I do think it raises a good question - do we really need these bans in place now that we have every stinking disease and parasite that the rest of the world has? At this time in history - I think it would be better if we could get better genetics without importing frozen drone sperm from Europe and paying $500+ for an II queen with caucasian genes.

Maybe the bans still need to be in place and I just can't fathom a reason why.


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

The most Brutal diseases are penatrated from America.. for example american brood disease. so when you write a comment you must be an obvious.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I once had a Romanian coworker friend who went back to his country.
I asked him to smuggle some of those queens for me since he also travel to Georgia there. He got scared at
the last minute after feeling very nervous and uncomfortable about the queen importing law here. 
The queen importation border is still closed! The queen will die inside a suitcase of suffocation and the cold of the luggage
compartment on the plane. Even a heat pack will not work. It is too risky an adventure that the queen might die. The only channel that is still open is through Canada, since you are an EU country, if you can make some
contact to have the pure queens ship there to grow the operation first. The Buckfast queen is a good example
of such an adventure. And the expensive $750 queen here is a hybrid of the carnis. You can still do this after finding
the right connection!


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

Hello Bee pro

Did you talk to Apis Donau. He is the biggest Queen breeder in Romania. He has got Caucasian bees from Georgia republic


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The most Brutal diseases are penatrated from America.. for example american brood disease.

American foulbrood is not limited to nor did it originate in America. It was just isolated and identified here. Neither is European foulbrood limited to Europe nor did it originate there. It was just isolated and identified there. Aristotle wrote about foullbrood in about 350 BC or so and he was definitely not in America...


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

rniles said:


> do we really need these bans in place now that we have every stinking disease and parasite that the rest of the world has?


No, there's still stuff out there that if it hits our shores beekeeping will suffer.




rniles said:


> Maybe the bans still need to be in place and I just can't fathom a reason why.


Why? Because people do stupid stuff all the time. I recall a thread here on beesource of some guy in FL planning to export AHB to northern states and when questioned, he saw no reason why that would be a bad idea. Lots of other examples. Sure, a lot of this stuff eventually arrives, but I'd perfer to study the enemy at a distance for a while before its in my yard.


----------



## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

AstroBee said:


> No, there's still stuff out there that if it hits our shores beekeeping will suffer.


That would be good enough a reason.


----------



## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> We can get queens from Canada for an expensive fee of some sort. That's how we get "real" Buckfast bees here... Canada imports them and we can import the daughters from Canada or some such trickery.


There's no trickery. It a legal means, and I've done it. There are rules: Breeder queens can be brought into Canada. A year later, the daughters of those queens are allowed into the US. The import/export fee last year was ~$90 US, for one queen or one hundred. There _might _be an opportunity here - a knowledgeable beekeeper _might _be able to make a profit working within the rules. It would require the ability to successfully rear quality queens, in Canada - no small task I'd imagine.

I agree with JW - it's not worth the risk. I'd rather play by the rules than chance an extended court battle, fines, & possible imprisonment. Who would take care of my bees?


----------



## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Slow Drone said:


> Maybe ship queens to New Zealand or Canada and reship from there.


As I understand it, this would also be a violation of the current Canada to US law. I looked into it before I came to understand the law. Understandably, no one is openly advertising "queen brokering" via Canada.

'Not sure about NZ. I imagine it's covered in a similar manner.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Colobee said:


> Who would take care of my bees?


Especially with your "spring" out there. No thanks. 

I didn't mean trickery in the sense that there were any tricks... I'm just saying what the hell is the difference...?


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

* Trickery? Makes more sense to use the word "smuggle" in.
* No, I did not even get that far for my coworker friend to visit the queen breeder there.
He got other obligations like an arranged within family member marriage. He also chicken out
on the marriage because we here got a more opened mind. 
* Who would take care of my bees? Do what Brian did. Practicing non-intervention beekeeping!
Mother nature does it for who knows how long in million of years. This also give them a chance to
survive and to be tf if possible. Although you might not be there for awhile your bees will
be valuable if they somehow turn into the resistant bees.e
* How about shipping your bees to Brazil or somewhere in S. America without the influence of the
AHB there? Then beekeepers in Canada can import your queens and we can import them here later on.
It will take a while but with the right connection it can be done also.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm just glad that SOMEONE is raising the caucasian strain. I understand from one Russian that they were very nearly wiped out. They are the best producers of propolis known.

Good luck to you. Those interested, send inquiries to Dr. Tom Rinderer at ars.usda.gov Baton Rouge Bee Research Laboratory. Ask about the protocol for importing eggs and bee semen. I believe they need to reside isolated on an island off Louisiana for 2 years before they can be legally imported.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

kilocharlie said:


> Dr. Tom Rinderer at ars.usda.gov Baton Rouge Bee Research Laboratory.


Dr. Thomas Rinderer has retired as director of the Baton Rouge Bee Lab.

https://www.dadant.com/uncategorized/baton-rouge-bee-lab-director-retires


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So now what?
Sending them through Hawaii for these queens?


----------



## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> Especially with your "spring" out there. No thanks.  I didn't mean trickery in the sense that there were any tricks... I'm just saying what the hell is the difference...?


The way I understand it, the one year "quarantine" is a means to buffer any possible bad side effects - like varroa or AHB. Not that those bad side effects couldn't just wing it across the border without the proper paper work. 

It's kind of a PITA, but it is a legal means to get pure European Buckfast genetics into the US via Canada. It would be nice to see a similar means for other stock, but would require a capable Canadian breeding operation - no easy task, I'm sure. I've read that there are also some means by which drone semen can be imported, but I'm not sure it is eventually made available to the general beekeeping public - "for scientific purposes only" ?. 

Under the existing law, as I understand it, Queens may *not* be brought into Canada & re-shipped to the US. The have to be bred in Canada, and then ( only) the daughters can be sent, the following year. 

Given the US "mutt crossbreeding" limited gene pool, as referred to by some, this in one legal avenue for bringing decent & different ( some might say "superior") genetics into the US.

I imagine that if there were any other legal means, it would be being done, and advertised a such. I'm unaware of any at the moment.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Considering most beekeeping problems in North America are imported, (hence the regulations) why would anybody repeat the stupidity of unregulated importation of bees? Even bee sperm can carry new viruses. 

People who do it should be in jail for a long time.


----------



## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

lharder said:


> Considering most beekeeping problems in North America are imported, (hence the regulations) why would anybody repeat the stupidity of unregulated importation of bees? Even bee sperm can carry new viruses.
> 
> People who do it should be in jail for a long time.


Good question. I (legally) imported caucasian queens last year into Canada, I'll be grafting from some of them soon. Viruses and such aren't a huge concern because Canada already imports a ton of queens from the limited few countries we can import from (USA, Chili, Australia, New Zealand, and Denmark, AFAIK), so there wouldn't be anything novel coming in. US and Canadian import restrictions are basically the same... plus you have access to the queens crossed from pure caucasian germplasm. I can't think of any valid reason to smuggle in bees from abroad.

Edit: to those talking about bringing stock in Canada as quarantine to then bring them back to the US... as I stated above, that's unlikely to work. Canadian import regulations are just as strict, if not moreso, than US regulations. That being said, I have legally imported caucasians, am in Canada, and could rear from them for anyone in the US willing to go through the paperwork and pay for the permits. I do not, however, run a closed mating operation for them, and thus they'd be outcrossed with the rest of my carniolan and italian stock.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

We have the carnis and Italians crossed with the
Caucasian too. Breeder queens are a bit expensive but
the production queens are available at a less expensive price too.
If we import with the paper works from Canada then it must be the
pure Caucasians otherwise it is a waste of money as we have those
crosses here also. Too bad you cannot control their purity.


----------



## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

That's understandable if you are looking specifically for caucasians, hence why I don't go to actively promote them, even in Canada. I didn't get my own from US breeders, though, as I couldn't find any who looked reputable and would export to Canada. Though for enough volume, I could see some from the Northern states preferring canadian mutts to californian mutts.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

What makes you think there is nothing new to spread around? From an ecological standpoint a naive statement. As is the idea that screening/inspection tools are up to the challenge of knowing what to keep out, and keeping it out. 

Consider even known viruses. Viruses are quick to change. Moving bees around basically spreads any new variant around, creating chaotic adaptive landscapes where disease and death is rampant. If you want to create a bit of adaptive stability, moving lots of bees needs to restricted to within regions where they would naturally interact. 

I'm not completely against moving bees, but moving bees between continents should be considered the same as moving potentially highly biohazardous material around. This means the strictest screening and limiting importation to perhaps sperm. It would not be done by the private sector, rather as part of an government led agricultural extension/research with goals of genetic diversity, not bringing in and maintaining supposedly pure strains of bees.


----------



## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

lharder said:


> What makes you think there is nothing new to spread around? From an ecological standpoint a naive statement. As is the idea that screening/inspection tools are up to the challenge of knowing what to keep out, and keeping it out.
> 
> Consider even known viruses. Viruses are quick to change. Moving bees around basically spreads any new variant around, creating chaotic adaptive landscapes where disease and death is rampant. If you want to create a bit of adaptive stability, moving lots of bees needs to restricted to within regions where they would naturally interact.
> 
> I'm not completely against moving bees, but moving bees between continents should be considered the same as moving potentially highly biohazardous material around. This means the strictest screening and limiting importation to perhaps sperm. It would not be done by the private sector, rather as part of an government led agricultural extension/research with goals of genetic diversity, not bringing in and maintaining supposedly pure strains of bees.


Canada imports thousands of queens annually from the US, Chili, Australia, and NZ. What's a few dozen more from said regions? Refusing to import from those regions won't make my neighbors cease doing so. Of course, I'm completely in favor of the heavy limitations to imports that are in place, and the only reason I ever imported bees from abroad was to get caucasians I couldn't find anywhere in North America. And sure, the more intercontinental bee trade is done, the greater the odds of new pathogens entering due to bees illegally smuggled into said zones. But as I already said, refusing to import bees from the US/NZ/AUS/Chili doesn't really reduce the risks of getting novel pathogens because of just how widespread it currently is.


----------



## ahamshep (Aug 2, 2015)

Can they be sent to Mexico?


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

lharder said:


> Considering most beekeeping problems in North America are imported, (hence the regulations) why would anybody repeat the stupidity of unregulated importation of bees? Even bee sperm can carry new viruses.


The only reason we have bees at all in North America is unregulated importation..............


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

ahamshep said:


> Can they be sent to Mexico?


You must travel to Georgia republic and take away some beequeens


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, they can be send to Mexico. 
But don't ever allow them to mix with the AHB there.
Now the grey bees are in trouble as we cannot really tell the
difference by color only by their aggressive behaviors. Besides, who would
travel that far just to pick up some queens? Sending them through the mail
is the fastest and least expensive way to go hoping that some will survive with attendants.


----------



## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

Caucasian bees are not agressive bees but Carpatians are


----------



## ahamshep (Aug 2, 2015)

I was under the impression they were some of the least agresive bees to work with? 

That was my main interest in caucasian varieties.


----------



## ahamshep (Aug 2, 2015)

I could not justify traveling to pickup queens sorry. Mail would be the only option as others already are mentioning.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

snl said:


> The only reason we have bees at all in North America is unregulated importation..............


So I guess you are for spreading of new pests/pathogens around or at least not regulating it?

The bee industry in NA threw away a huge competitive advantage by being stupid. Because your neighbors were stupid and want to continue to be stupid, doesn't mean one has to be stupid themselves. This stupidity is not limited to beekeepers but is common throughout agriculture. I can pile on case after case and tally the annual economic costs in agriculture/forestry that runs in the billions with huge cumulative costs. Educate yourselves on the risks. And yes if more beekeepers didn't import bees, then overall risks would go down. 

Base practices on biological principles and encourage others to do the same. Don't import the next management problem.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

This was a lot less of a big deal when we lived on Pangea.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Mexico has the AHB!
Once this genetics got mixed with the gentle Caucasians then
there is a 50/50 chance that the hive will become aggressive. Now what would you
call this mix if there is a name for it?
Yes, you can import to Mexico but can you prevent it from mixing with the AHB genes?
Now you will have the grey aggressive bees that is my concern all along.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> This was a lot less of a big deal when we lived on Pangea.


One of my more interesting classes was biogeography where we were looking at fossil distributions in relation to continental drift history. 

Big continents have lots of barriers to genetic flows, deserts, high mountains, climatic zones from north to south, dry to wet. Also the nature of it may be different depending on landscapes. For instance with bees, it may flow along rivers and lakes in grasslands where there aren't many trees. Be interesting to map gene flow in absence of artificial transport because this would determine where distinct sub races of bees would naturally form in the absence of interference.


----------



## ahamshep (Aug 2, 2015)

beepro said:


> Mexico has the AHB!
> Once this genetics got mixed with the gentle Caucasians then
> there is a 50/50 chance that the hive will become aggressive. Now what would you
> call this mix if there is a name for it?
> ...


I was thinking of trying to use moonlight mating to controle any mating in my apiary.

I've had one hive that was very aggresive. I believe the majority of honey bees in my region have AHB genes, but they are not all overly aggresive.


----------



## ahamshep (Aug 2, 2015)

This seemed interesting. Although it is old research and may not apply today. Its sugestive that caucasions may have dominant docile genes.

”f1 hybrid (African x Caucasian) were found to be 3.3 times less aggressive than the African bees."

https://books.google.com.mx/books?i...ized bees caucasian aggressive brazil&f=false


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I am from Northern Caucasus. I particularly was interested in true Caucasian bees. My understanding is that they have disappeared during USSR dissolution. They were substituted by Karpatsky variety (Karpatki), which is very popular in Russia and neighboring countries nowadays. It was my understanding that Karpatki are not aggressive and it was the reason why they are popular. Similar fate was for true "Middle-Russia bees" (nothing to do with American "Russian" bee) - they all gone! I think, the nature of offered bees needs to be verified. I can not speak for Georgia, but my Russian bee-friends are very aware of fake "Caucasian bees" - usually they are Karpatki. 

Regarding importing bees to USA. This whole thread is hilarious! Travel to Georgia to get potentially fake Caucasians is just insane! From another hand, I know beekeeper in Central Valley of Ca, who is importing bees from Germany. I do not know how he did it, but he replenish his stock on regular basis and speaks about this as a matter of fact. Thus, I can conclude, that importing is possible, but not necessary legal. Be aware of fake bees!


----------



## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Would the Karpatki and Carpathian possibly be the same breed? You bring up an extremely good point traveling for potentially fake bees would indeed be insane.


----------



## ahamshep (Aug 2, 2015)

I recived an email from Susan Cobey. Who says she has Caucasians, but claims it would be problematic sending them to mexico.

That being said. It seems you in the USA have a source, unless anyone believes her stock are not true caucasians?


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Insane like crossing the Atlantic in a kayak with a hive of bees tied on the back and sneaking into Chesapeake Bay.

So, it is no longer Dr. Rinderer at Baton Rouge, _somebody_ there knows the protocol. Have your university confirm if the bees are Caucasus Mountain Grey bees. Contact Baton Rouge, learn the protocol, jump through all the hoops. You just have to find a motivated customer with money.


----------



## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

ahamshep said:


> I recived an email from Susan Cobey. Who says she has Caucasians, but claims it would be problematic sending them to mexico.
> 
> That being said. It seems you in the USA have a source, unless anyone believes her stock are not true caucasians?


Susan Cobey crossed Caucasians with Carniolan in other words inseminated Carniolan queens with caucasian germplasm.


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Slow Drone said:


> Would the Karpatki and Carpathian possibly be the same breed? ...


 Yes, the same.


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

kilocharlie said:


> ... at Baton Rouge, _somebody_ there knows the protocol. Have your university confirm if the bees are Caucasus Mountain Grey bees...


 Technically, because Georgia is situated in Caucasus Mountains, all bees, originated from Georgia can be called "Caucasian bees." In USSR they had developed system to keep pure lines of bees. They had special "selection stations" to keep pure lines. Each pure queen had a "passport" with lineage description. I believe, identification was based on specific patterns of the veins in the bee winds - cheap and robust. I participated in discussion on Russian Bee-Forum a few years ago and if I remember correctly, the conclusion was that pure line of Caucasian gray bee and Middle-Russia bee does not exist anymore at least in their indigenous areas. They were mixed/substituted with Karpatka, who was more prolific and adaptable. There are a few instances of isolated populations of bees deep in the mountains, but if I remember correctly - it was mixed with Karpatka. Karpatka in that area is similar to AHB - it mixes with locals and quickly substitute them. I do not aware that Georgia managed to preserve gray Caucasian bee, but who knows, may be... the lineage of claimed bees needs to be proven.


----------



## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

cerezha said:


> Yes, the same.


Thanks cerezha.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

But the German bees are not the true Caucasians to my
understanding. From what I have read on the net there are
true Caucasians in the deep mountain not affected by any human
influences. Yes, they still have those bees but you have to verify
by genetic testing to make sure.


----------



## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Sue and Dr Shepard back crossed their Caucasian line enough times to obtain something like a 99.98% pure Caucasian. This is our third year grafting off of several breeders from Sue and we are very happy with the F1s and F2s thus far. The F1 and F2 hybrids built up nicely for the Almonds and have been prodigious; producing many splits and a honey crop. It has been a very good year here. I am not seeing quite as much propolis production as I had expected, but this could change as they begin to compose a larger percentage of the operation. These bees have been an absolute pleasure to work with and are the best "new" thing I have come across ever... and I have tried just about everything. At minimum one may want to consider these bees as an excellent way to increase genetic diversity in ones operation.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

JBJ - Isn't it neat that science can now make "backward progress" to re-purify a race? The grey bees were very gentle, and produced amazing amounts of propolis. I am surprised to hear that they made a honey crop. I have always heard that a. m. caucasia bees were thought of as "lazy" in the honey department.

Sergey - Please tell us more about the various bee races from the area! I'd love to hear about the bee races in Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, and all the other places you know of. The long beehives are also of interest.


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

kilocharlie said:


> ... tell us more about the various bee races from the area! I'd love to hear about the bee races in Russia...


Well, I have no personal experience in beekeeping in Russia, but I am active in Russian and Ukranian (used to be) bee-forums. It is my understanding, that after USSR collapse, the rich bee-culture was lost. It is true for many States created as a result of USSR dissolution. In USSR they had developed system to keep pure lines of bees - they used very isolated areas to keep particular line of bees. Everyone had access to pure-line queens practically for free. With established beekeeping practice, it was common to have 100-200 kilos of honey per hive/year. After USSR collapse, most of the pure lines were lost or mixed with others. I gather from multiple sources, that A.m.caucasica does not exist anymore in Caucasus Mountains , so "Middle Russian" line. Most of bees in nowadays Russia, are exported mainly from Germany. It is very sad. Following Western tradition, last decade or more, Russians heavy used chemicals to control varroa. It caused "drug-resistance" and now they dig out from the attics old "thermocameras" for thermal treatment against varroa. Since, Russia is huge, there are still "oasises" of bees, who naturally resistant to varroa. In particular, there are rumors, that "Middle-Russian" was not destroyed yet and there are some clusters, who survived ... well, not varroa, but "perestroika!" - in remote areas in Siberia, of coarse... As for south part of Russia, it is all infested by "Karpatka." 
Karpatka was discovered in Ukraine in 20 century (relatively recent). It is very docile, productive (50-80kg/yr), has early start, winters very well even in harsh winter, does not swarm easily (2% normally). The biggest advantage is that Karpatka can switch from one nectar source to another easily - beneficial in bad nectar years. Protects their nest very well. At the same time - great robbers! produce very little propolis (considered disadvantage), can not fight wax moth. Some believe that Karpatka is a variety of Carnica...???


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yea, and post some hive pics too!


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I had a few Caucasian queens back in the 1970's and early 1980's. They have slow spring brood development, are very gentle, but glue everything up with propolis. I don't want them ever again, they are not adapted to the climate here in the SouthEast.


----------

