# Assessing Swarminess



## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

I have been wondering whether some of the swarmy strains or subspecies of bees might have the ability to not be swarmy in bad seasons. Swarming too much can be deadly in bad seasons, but in good nectar seasons they could multiply and fill all the tree hollows available with the many afterswarms that survive. I have heard of beekeepers having a lot of trouble with swarming during powerful nectar flows or good years, with the colonies sending a lot of afterswarms.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> I am interested to know what criteria folks are utilizing to assess and rank 'swarminess'.


No clue as I don't spend my time in this direction.
But I will say that, indeed, the "swarminess" is the real thing.

In the past I had at least one specific queen that would insist on swarming no matter how much space was provided to them.
As soon as the colony grew to a size of a nominal "single deep", they directed all efforts into the swarming preps (no matter what I did).
Only aggressive splitting would stop them.
This was some feral lineage which I eventually lost.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> to promote AMM- a decidedly less 'swarmy' sub-species as I understand it


seems to be part of the permotion



> Overall, the genotypes MacG, MelL and CarC were most prone to swarm, while the expression of the trait in Sic, LigF and CarK was very low.





> A significantly higher expression of swarming tendency was detected in the colonies of the MelF genotype,





> A high swarming tendency of A. m. mellifera was reported by Brother Adam (1968) in both Northern and Southern populations (Cooper, 1986; Ruttner, 1988a), and the differences we observed between MelF and genotypes belonging to the evolutionary lineage C (CarG, CarP, LigF, MacB, MacG and MacM), confirm these reports. The lack of long-lasting intensive artificial selection in this somewhat neglected subspecies has probably contributed to retaining the natural expression of this trait.


Swarming, defensive and hygienic behaviour in honey bee colonies of different genetic origin in a pan-European experiment


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3896/IBRA.1.53.2.06


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

HaplozygousNut said:


> I have been wondering whether some of the swarmy strains or subspecies of bees might have the ability to not be swarmy in bad seasons.


Good question, Nathaniel. As I understand reproductive swarming, the presumption would be that the colony only swarms when it senses it has the internal resources to do so. And while this 'trigger' and the associated intensity of swarming is likely genetically-driven, the principles are the same- the colony senses that conditions are right for fission. Thus I would expect that reproductive swarming will always be largely dependant upon conditions on the ground and all colonies to a greater or lesser extent will produce less swarms when the conjunction of conditions are poor versus when they are good. Thus, even 'swarmy' bees would be less 'swarmy' when the internal and/or external conditions are poor.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> In the past I had at least one specific queen that would insist on swarming no matter how much space was provided to them.


Thanks for the feedback, GregV. Hadn't had any bees like that yet- sounds like it would be hard to manage.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> Swarming, defensive and hygienic behaviour in honey bee colonies of different genetic origin in a pan-European experiment


Good find, MSL. I had previously read that study but didn't focus on the swarming aspect of it. Interesting as it flies in the face of conventional advice that C-lineage bees are inherently 'swarmy' and M-lineage bees are not.

While it is off-topic it does make one wonder whether the AMM bees in the British Isles are significantly different to their counterparts on the continent given that British AMM beekeepers consistently report low swarming and non-prolific queens.


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## JB33 (Jul 27, 2021)

I've heard that Sue Cobey selects against swarmy bees by removing genetic lines from the breeding population if they swarm. My understanding is that she manages the colonies as they should be managed, but no special care is made to prevent swarming. All of the colonies are treated the same and any colonies that swarm are out of the breeding program. Not that you really have a choice with closed population breeding.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebee33 said:


> All of the colonies are treated the same and any colonies that swarm are out of the breeding program.


joebee33:

Thank you for your feedback. I sincerely appreciate it. I have tried to no avail to run-down a specific reference where swarm proclivity is addressed in the various talks that Sue and others have given concerning the selection parameters utilized in the NWC program, but I believe you. I wonder if this particular component is wrapped-up in their general assessment for 'productivity' that Sue talks about starting at about the 17:30 mark of the WSU video below:






While trying to run this to-ground, I found a couple other interesting discussions concerning their general selection approach and good overviews of the closed-population model in general:














Developing A Breeding Program with Sue Cobey, Dr. Tim Lawrence and Dr. Steve Sheppard (S2, E24)


Sue Cobey, Tim Lawrence and Steve Sheppard join the podcast this week to discuss their new three-part video series on how to develop an effective and pro…




www.beekeepingtodaypodcast.com





Thanks again for the feedback.

Russ


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Had a situation a couple of years ago with excess swarming. I had decided to go all in for making increase, so I deliberately kept them in smaller spaces, in order to force swarm cell production. Turned out I wasn't ready for how swarmy that particular line could be given the opportunity! I left the primary queen tight until I saw ripe swarm cells, them did a multiple split. The splits then swarmed again shortly after, then a couple of the swarms threw afterswarms. Etc. It got ridiculous.

Note to self, don't do that again unless you have all the boxes and frames you need already made up! And be ready to feed!

Most of those small swarms didn't make it, but I still have one hive left from that line, from a tiny afterswarm. This summer, a poor nectar year, it swarmed once. Very much environmental.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

At 29:00 Bob Binnie sort of off-handedly offered that swarm cells make the best Queens, with a caveat.





Alex


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

AHudd said:


> At 29:00 Bob Binnie sort of off-handedly offered that swarm cells make the best Queens, with a caveat.


Good stuff, Alex. Thanks for posting. I was just watching a similar talk by Bob which offers a bit of additional context:






I know there are folks (like Terry Combs) who will only propagate utilizing swarm cells under this understanding that they make the best queens.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Thanks for that link, I'll watch that right now.

Alex


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think that if you set a breeder queen up in the same circumstance; eggs laid while the queen has been curtailed from high number production produces heavier eggs. Crowded nurse bees that have been feeding large numbers from well stocked frames of nectar and honey then suddenly presented with limited numbers of larvae from those selected eggs at the youngest age with no opportunity to raise older larvae and you will have presented conditions matching or exceeding swarm cells.

That has been kicked around here before and Bernhard Huevel uses that method to set the scene for his queens. Unless hi is BS'ing about the recorded weights and the ovariole counts and the subsequent sperm stored, it appears that his queens outdo similar parameters of judging queen potential.

No how many of us even come close to achieving such a level of preparation; under a bit slap dash conditions I dont doubt that swarm queens are predictable better than a lot of back yard producers and perhaps the larger queen producers. I see literature and pictures recommending the use of 2 day old larvae because it works and is easier to graft so probably lots of other quality selection targets have been a bit out of the ten ring as well.

It would be intersting to hear Bernhard Huevel and Terry Combs discuss it and to rate their respective queens abilities.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> It would be intersting to hear Bernhard Huevel and Terry Combs discuss it and to rate their respective queens abilities.


I'd pay admission to sit-in on that discussion. As far as Terry's approach, here it is (quoted with his permission):

_'Controlling the timing of the swarming instinct presents several challenges as beekeepers have found out during our history of involvement with honey bees. Here is my response to your question about timing-either stalling the instinct or hurrying it along.

To hasten the process I do the following:

1) As soon as the weather begins to stabilize and early resources become available I would stimulate brood rearing as much as possible by stimulative feeding of 1;1 sugar syrup and pollen supplements. The object being to crowd the selected increase colonies early and hope to see drone brood early in the season in drone mother colonies. It won't work to have queens ready before drones. If the weather and resources cooperate and spring gets an early start I've been able to get a 2-3 week jump on the normal timing of swarm season.

2) To delay the initiation of swarming I do not apply any stimulative feeding and keep the brood nest open with new empty frames and a super available for nectar/honey storage constantly available. If the weather and resources act in unison with this (cool, wet, and a slow start to resources} I can delay swarming for 2-4 weeks. 

In my area these two techniques, if everything cooperates, can give me a window from late March to early June in which to initiate swarming and create nucs. I have found that colonies in my apiary and in the feral population tend to initiate drone removal starting in July so I don't try starting nucs from July on. I'm certain that a big reason for much of the lack of success in starting late-season nucs is incomplete mating due to the absence of sufficient/diverse drones.

If you are at capacity and don't wish to expand further you now have nucs for sale, for replacing any queen problems, or doing what I like to do at year's end which is requeen colonies with the best nuc queens to keep a stable population. If the original mother colonies have better queens then I kill the nuc queen and combine the nuc with the mother.'_


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## JB33 (Jul 27, 2021)

Litsinger said:


> joebee33:
> 
> Thank you for your feedback. I sincerely appreciate it. I have tried to no avail to run-down a specific reference where swarm proclivity is addressed in the various talks that Sue and others have given concerning the selection parameters utilized in the NWC program, but I believe you. I wonder if this particular component is wrapped-up in their general assessment for 'productivity' that Sue talks about starting at about the 17:30 mark of the WSU video below:
> 
> ...


I'll have to try and see if I can find where Sue talks about her selection against swarming. Selection against swarming does seem to be touched on much less than say varroa resistance or honey yield. I might add that when you do select against swarming, its not just selecting against swarming, but really selecting against swarming under your management style. I suspect that given the right circumstances, bees with a low swarming tendency will likely hit the trees sooner or later. Consequently, Sue's Carniolans might not swarm for her under her management style, but, they might under mine or someone else's.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

joebee33 said:


> ...when you do select against swarming, its not just selecting against swarming, but really selecting against swarming under your management style.


Good point- ideally our selection criteria should be tailored to our goals, stocks and local climate. I'll look forward to any swarm propensity feedback you find about the NWC effort.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Litsinger said:


> guys who are working to promote AMM- a decidedly less 'swarmy' sub-species as I understand it:


Sheesh, who told you that one


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Oldtimer said:


> Sheesh, who told you that one


Thanks, Oldtimer. I only offered the comment about AMM's inherent swarming tendency to offer context relative to each author's opinion as to their proclivity to swarm as compared to their matrices for comparatively assessing 'swarminess' within their populations:



Native Honey Bees




https://inrbs.ie/honey-bee/



That said, MSL offered a good bit of research above that suggests that 'swarminess' among AMM is likely quite variable within the AMM ecotypes, and maybe has more to do with the origin and climate of the ecotype than the subspecies itself, as suggested by BIBBA:






Honey bee origins, evolution & diversity - Ashleigh Milner - BIBBA


What are honey bees, anyway? Bees of all kinds belong to the order of insects known as Hymenoptera, literally "membrane wings". This order, comprising some 100,000 species,




bibba.com





_'The swarming behaviour of A m mellifera is variable, depending on the region. In heather districts the local populations tended to be very swarmy, but some strains from the North of Britain have shown a low inclination to swarm, with the construction of only small numbers of swarm cells. Where the swarming tendency is low, queen replacement takes place by supersedure.'_

These two topics are touched-on in Dr. Eoghan Mac Giolla Coda's talk to the FIBKA from earlier this year:


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I haven't read a lot of studies on it, but I have actually worked with them. My country was settled mostly by people from Great Britain, and that's where our bees came from. Later, those bees were wiped out in Britain by Isle of Wight disease. As they died, the British imported huge numbers of bees from other countries to replace them.
Isle of Wight disease never made it to my country and the old british bees survived here after they were pretty much extinct in the rest of the world.
Before Isle of Wight hit Britain, Italian bees were imported here, and then further imports of any type of bee were banned because of disease worries.
So when I started beekeeping we had 2 strains, AMM's, and Italians. They were 2 very different bees. The italians were gentle, built up slowly in spring but into big colonies, made a lot of honey, wintered in big clusters and ate a lot of honey through winter. The AMM's wintered in tiny clusters and didn't need much honey to get through. In spring they built up really fast and then swarmed. And swarmed, and swarmed.... Could make a decent amount of honey if you could just stop them swarming, although that was a very difficult task. Their capped honey was beautiful, with pure white caps, not the yellowish caps Italians make. The old British bees were also extremely aggressive.

So the old British bees were a tough breed, they would survive where Italians would not. But their weakness was disease, they were very disease prone. My theory is they came from a small island (Britain) where they had lived for thousands of years in a disease free environment and had lost resistance. Isle of Wight (tracheal mites) got to Britain and wiped them out. We never got tracheal mites here, but the AMM's were wiped out when varroa mites got here. The AMM's were a breed everyone was plagued with and trying to eradicate because of their aggression and swarminess, but couldn't get rid of because they make so many drones and breed profusely. But within a few years of varroa, they were gone.

I do recognise in the occasional hive, some of their genetics. The hive will look Italian, but show some very definate AMM behavior. Runniness on the comb, aggression, chase you for hundreds of yards, and just the sound they make. The breed is gone but there are still a few genes left.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> Two benchmarks I am aware of follow...
> 
> Roger Patterson- Peak Queencell Number (PQN): Peak Queencell Number (PQN)
> 
> Eoghan Mac Giolla Coda- Swarm Preps versus Number of Frames of Bees (image attached).


And here are two videos of each discussing how to employ the evaluation:

Roger Patterson- starting at the 25:10 mark:






Dr. Eoghan Mac Giolla Coda- starting at the 43:30 mark:






Otherwise, the only other numerical assessments I can find relate to Ruttner's 4-Point System:

Croatia, Slovakia:

4 - colonies shows no inclination to swarming throughout the season / no queen cells occurred
3 - queen cells can be found during a routine inspection / after extension of the hive by supers and destroying of existing queen cells, workers do not continue with their building 
2 - swarming can be managed just by creating artificial swarms
1 - testing colony swarmed

Denmark: 

5 - no indication of swarming at all
4 - small queen cells with eggs seen, but no swarm control management has been done / no swarming 
3 - queen cells with eggs seen / one swarm control management has been done / no swarming 
2 - several swarming control managements have been undertaken 
1 - swarming


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Oldtimer said:


> The breed is gone but there are still a few genes left.


Thanks, Oldtimer. Good post. I assume by 'gone' you mean gone in New Zealand?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes in New Zealand. 

However I suspect that at least for British AMM's, the world, although I cannot prove it and could be wrong.

Over in Britain there are groups that claim to have "surviving remnants" of the old British bees. It may just be true but I doubt it. Why? Because I witnessed how fast they disappeared here once exposed to mites, and don't see how they would have fared any better elsewhere. Nobody from Britain ever took a look at the surviving British AMM's here after their ones were wiped out, to be able to truly identify the breed. They don't know what their AMM's were, and just choose some black bee and claim it's a surviving remnant.

An example of the mentality is a guy here who claimed he had some surviving AMM's. Anyhow he lost them all, so he sent to me asking to buy some pure black Carniolan queens, which I sent him. (Carniolian semen was imported here a few years ago so now we also have Carniolans). Anyhow he got some new black bees established using my Carniolan queens and then resumed his online claims about having surviving AMM's. I did not want to publicly humiliate him by revealing that he had bought the queens from me and they were Carniolan, so he keeps his secret and has probably convinced many. I suspect that in Britain, some people want to believe that some old British bees have survived, it's a feel good story, so they look at a bee and see what they want to see. 
In Britain as the old British bees died off they were replaced by many imported breeds, AMM's among them. For example they imported Portugese AMM's which best I can tell from the literature, withstood Isle of Wight disease very well.

It is a mystery what happened to Isle of Wight disease. It came, wreaked havock, then disappeared. My own theory is this. Certain breeds of bee were very susceptible to it. As we moved bees around the planet, diseases such as Isle of Wight disease met populations of bees with no resistance. Causing huge losses to the beekeepers. But once these susceptible breeds were exterminated, other bee breeds took their place, and Isle of Wight disease vanished. Or at least nearly, it is now down to the very low levels it probably always has been at. You will occasionally hear about a hive that has it.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Oldtimer said:


> However I suspect that at least for British AMM's, the world, although I cannot prove it and could be wrong.


If you haven't seen it yet, the following presentation and research is really a worthwhile investment:



Litsinger said:


> A great presentation by her [Dr Grace McCormack] IMHO follows- at about the 45 minute mark she begins discussing current AMM distribution and refers to a distribution map that is in 2018 paper that is also included below:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> I suspect that in Britain, some people want to believe that some old British bees have survived, it's a feel good story, so they look at a bee and see what they want to see.


Genetic testing is pending though.
The wing analysis was promising.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

"gone" in the US mainland as well
1994 they made up 37% of the feral pop , 2009 they had dropped to 7%

given Brother adam felt they went extinct , and the amount of outside genetics that was brought in as replacements for the massive losses... I as well wonder if the British Black Bee reports are realy now just AMM imported form the content. or mutts that just look the part

lots of talk and feel good story's of people who believe in them, No DNA studies of the living hives to have them compared to Contential AMM and British Black Bee museum samples.
It kina feels like the TF movement in its cultish behavior and outlandsih claims 
from the david cushman site


> Low swarming. In personal communication John Dews, who was a leading authority on Amm in the U.K., told me he thought that in a natural state before man's involvement a colony of Amm would swarm only once every 10 years. This means they are usually superseders and to keep a stable population winter losses would average 10%.


A bee that dosen't swarm is like a rabit that doesn't mate.... end of the line


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> No DNA studies of the living hives to have them compared to Contential AMM and British Black Bee museum samples.


When reviewing the Irish study above and the genome study below, it seems safe to me to say that there is evidence of a unique dark bee ecotype(s) in the British Isles:









Characterisation of the British honey bee metagenome - Nature Communications


Numerous microbial symbionts, both commensal and pathogenic, are associated with honey bees. Here, the authors genomically characterize this â€˜metagenomeâ€™ of the British honey bee, identifying a diversity of commensal microbes as well as known and putative pathogens




www.nature.com





So I think it is safe to say that AMM is still around in the British Isles- as to where they came from and are they native... that's a question we may never have an answer for.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> A bee that dosen't swarm is like a rabit that doesn't mate.... end of the line


I'd give them a chance to do the genetic analysis. Should be over this winter.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> I'd give them a chance to do the genetic analysis. Should be over this winter.


I think this is the one to keep an eye out for:

_Local adaptation and integrity of the dark honey bee (_Apis mellifera mellifera_) in the UK._
Funded by NERC, B4 and The Eva Crane Trust
Researchers: Victoria Buswell


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

AR1 said:


> -----------------------------------------
> 
> Most of those small swarms didn't make it, but I still have one hive left from that line, from a tiny afterswarm. This summer, a poor nectar year, it swarmed once. Very much environmental.


I experienced a poor nectar season here in North Carolina, too. It caught me by surprise and I lost all but a few colonies to starving. The bees didn't even do a rapid Spring build-up as usual, and had still honey stores from the previous year during the active Spring build-up season when they should have eaten through it all.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> it seems safe to me to say that there is evidence of a unique dark bee ecotype(s) in the British Isles:


I don't see that... yes they could tell the difference between the Scotland and England AMM breeding programs, as they well should... but no were are they comparing historical samples vs modern ones or even contential bees

This is odd to say the least as such things have been done in HI and HI dose have its own unique M haplotype type, M70








Mitochondrial DNA genetic diversity of honey bees, Apis mellifera, in Hawaii - Apidologie


Honey bees, Apis mellifera, in the Hawaiian Islands are geographically isolated from honey bees in mainland United States. We conducted a study on the mitochondrial DNA genetic diversity of honey bees from seven of the Hawaiian Islands by sequencing the intergenic region between the Cytochrome...




link.springer.com




As dose Serbia, C2E (PDF) Analysis of mitochondrial DNA in honey bees (Apis mellifera) from Serbia

were is this kind of work on the brit black bee?



GregV said:


> I'd give them a chance to do the genetic analysis. Should be over this winter


"they" have had decades

all that said 
2 things strike me.... given the plastic nature of bees I could see any old AMM starting to look and act "native" firom natural slectin with in the time line they had

OT's experance with brit AMM mirrors the US, but makes me wonder if it was "going feral" that did it... in the deforested UK humans (beekeepers) controlled a large % of the nesting sites, and could control the genetics (the skeps that were jerks got harvested 1st) 

But let lose on almost unlimited old gowth forests that sllection pressure was removed


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> I don't see that... yes they could tell the difference between the Scotland and England AMM breeding programs, as they well should... but no were are they comparing historical samples vs modern ones or even contential bees


My point is that it is plain there is still AMM genetics around, and in certain pockets within the British Isles it is still relatively pure- as to whether they are genetically discrete from the continent- that may be difficult (if not impossible) to ever ascertain with frequent importation. Thus why the Colonsay and Irish populations (subject to less imports and more isolation) are of particular interest.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> "they" have had decades


It says:
The results of DNA samples taken from the bees are expected within the next three to four weeks, but Salbany is confident it will show the bees are descendants of an ancient native species. 








‘No one knew they existed’: wild heirs of lost British honeybee found at Blenheim


The ‘ecotype’, thought to have been wiped out by disease and invasive species, is thriving in the estate’s ancient woodlands




www.theguardian.com


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> My point is that it is plain there is still AMM genetics around


No one is saying AMM is gone, plenty were brought in, but for some reason when people find a feral black bee they want to call it a british black bee, a survivor.. and they say "see its a AMM!!!, proof"
AMM has bee all over the contentent for years and years... here is what it looked like 60 years ago... Once again the person remixing the data are doing the AMM=native thing













Characteristics of the black bee


Characteristics of the black bee



www.killowen.com




so it no big thing to find an AMM colony, never has bee, makes me wonder why is "news worth"

Its "said" the British black bee, the true native, came to be from 4,000+ years of isolation and was "different" .. it was BRITISH... lol
but were they? seems to be little info on the sposced British ecotype...
there is talk of the nordic ecotype in Scandinavia, the Mediterranean and Landes ecotypes in france, the alpine ecotype ***** form Switzerland,
this 2004 paper is said to to show a gentnicly distinct British AMM, but its behind a pay wall Varying degrees of Apis mellifera ligustica introgression in protected populations of the black honeybee, Apis mellifera mellifera, in northwest Europe

ant way, either they were/are special, or they were run of the mill AMM

in either case the finding of a basic AMM colony is no reason to jump for joy




GregV said:


> It says:


one of these articles pops up every few years her is 2012








Good to bee back: 'Extinct' British breed of honeybee found alive and well in church rafters after nearly 80 years


A rare 'British Black' honeybee which was thought to have been wiped out by a strain of Spanish flu in 1919 has been rediscovered in the rafters of a church in Northumberland.




www.dailymail.co.uk


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If anyone follows the British forums, it can be seen that over there, the majority of participants think that the people claiming to be breeding or purifying a remnant population of native bees are a little whacko. And the "work" of these people or groups is largely pooh pooh'ed.

As to wing morphology, it is a useful tool in some situations, but has largely been discredited in regards to supposed ancient AMM breeding prgrams in Britain. Because it has been observed that the believers are selectively breeding to a particular wing or vein shape. To the point that these wing shapes have begun appearing on bees that have no similarity to AMM's, so cannot be cited as proof a bee is an ancient British native bee.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> the believers are selectively breeding to a particular wing or vein shape. To the point that these wing shapes have begun appearing on bees that have no similarity to AMM's, so cannot be cited as proof a bee is an ancient British native bee.


Okay, now that cracks me up. Of all the things to think of using as a selection criteria, that might be my last.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> No one is saying AMM is gone...


Thank you, MSL. Somewhat tongue-in-cheek, we have made a lot of progress over the past several hours. We started with an open question of whether AMM still exists:



Oldtimer said:


> However I suspect that at least for British AMM's, the world, although I cannot prove it and could be wrong.
> 
> ...
> 
> Over in Britain there are groups that claim to have "surviving remnants" of the old British bees. It may just be true but I doubt it. Why? Because I witnessed how fast they disappeared here once exposed to mites, and don't see how they would have fared any better elsewhere.


To now only debating whether the AMM in Great Britain is truly 'native' or is the result of the importation of continental AMM, while maybe accepting that the Black Bees in Scotland, Ireland and the Hebrides appear to be unique ecotypes.

So I suppose the only thing left is to wait until there is sufficient genetic data to identify whether the black bees of Great Britain demonstrate a unique genetic signature or signatures to affirm or refute the claims that they are 'special'.

Ultimately, we've gotten far afield of the question concerning objective matrices for assessing propensity to swarm- but we've collectively spun a good yarn.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> We started with an open question of whether AMM still exists:


no
what was said was "However I suspect that at least for* British* AMM's" (empathic mine)
to OT's thought on that...Australia and HI have sold pops of British biased AMM



Litsinger said:


> while maybe accepting that the Black Bees in Scotland, Ireland and the Hebrides appear to be unique ecotypes.


thing is I cant find that .. what is there ecotype? M what? is it a true ecotype, or the effect of breeding program?
as an example the lands ecotype of AMM first describe in 1966 and the poster child for local adaption, are still around Persistence of the Landes ecotype of Apis mellifera mellifera in southwest France: confirmation of a locally adaptive annual brood cycle trait - Apidologie

for some reason we don't seem to have any thing on the historic "British" ecotype... except that people that new them "The native (Old British Black) bee had undoubtedly many extremely valuable characteristics, but equally so a great many serious defects and drawbacks. She was very bad tempered and very susceptible to brood diseases and would in any case not have been able to produce the crops (of honey) we have secured since her demise" bother adam
speak of them much the same as people who knew them in other country's, were for some reason they prevailed till varroa hit (or something in the same time line...NC maby?)
so most of the UK talking heads, that haven't seen the real thing as the genetics were lost on their inland before there lifetime arn't talking about the same bees
but we have these people who say these lost ferals are our salvation? back to my TF cult reference

so, while its said TM wiped the UK map of native AMM ecotypes.. it didn't do it to the others, contenal AMM were imported in mass ,meaning they had bees to spare ie from the irish study russ posted


> Importation of non-native bees after this population crash is reported to also have had a large impact with the first organized importation of bees recorded in the Republic of Ireland in 1923, when skeps of Dutch bees (_A. m. mellifera_) were brought in large numbers especially to Co. Wexford. In 1927 under a Department of Agriculture and technical instruction restocking scheme, 15 County Committees of Agriculture imported Dutch skeps.


 ...."
again... non UK areas of AMM had bees to spare and sold them to the UK for years
like wize in the US (and around the world)the (in many cases feral) amm pop was exposed, and prospered in the face on TM....then much later something took them out.(Varroa, NC, what ever)

this suggests a genetic difference, or that TM wasn't in the cause and the difference was exposure to. whatever..
both are interesting trains to follow as its said the britsh AMM was wiped out, or all but, depending on who you talk to.. but for some reason.. the rest of the AMM in world was spared (for a time)..

I am waiting for the study that says historic BBB were M7a and M8C (or what ever) and currant samples are xyz and the m7a nd m8c ecotypes are only found in x areas...

my thought is you can call a CA package queen "Italian" all you want cause its yellow and makes honey, but that about the same as the brits caling a dark be "native"


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> ... is it a true ecotype, or the effect of breeding program?


Thanks, MSL. Good post. I'll admit my use of the term 'ecotype' was a bit strong- how about genetically-distinct?

So it seems to me it is an open question as to whether the AMM population on Great Britian is 'native', 'imported' or a combination of the two, but it seems there is little doubt that AMM is still ubiquitous on the British Isles.

Looks like we'll all have to wait for the results of the genetic testing to see if they yield any definative conclusions.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> one of these articles pops up every few years her is 2012


Well, this time there is a specific person who seems to be handling the project.
Not some name-less "they".


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Litsinger said:


> Good find, MSL. I had previously read that study but didn't focus on the swarming aspect of it. Interesting as it flies in the face of conventional advice that C-lineage bees are inherently 'swarmy' and M-lineage bees are not.
> 
> While it is off-topic it does make one wonder whether the AMM bees in the British Isles are significantly different to their counterparts on the continent given that British AMM beekeepers consistently report low swarming and non-prolific queens.


A. m. carnica are said to be very swarmy and they are of the C-lineage. But it seems to vary from strain to strain because I bought brother Adam's book on his searching for the best strains of bees, and it talks about the differences of swarming tendencies between the different populations of A. m. carnica. The Banat bees from Hungary were less swarmy, if I remember correctly, and the "Greek bees" (actually carnica or macedonica, not cecropia) of northern Greece I think he said had a low swarming tendency, too. I need to bring Brother Adam's book to quote the interesting parts.


Brother Adam wrote about how some strains of German black bees were less swarmy and some very swarmy. I think it was the Heathland bees of the Netherlands (mellifera mellifera lehzeni) that he said were very swarmy.








Apis mellifera lehzeni


Lebah madu skandinavia ini terdapat di Jerman Utara. Badannya berwarna hijau dengan variasi kuning atau jingga pada perutnya.




ciri-madu-asli.blogspot.com





I was reading in the bee journal about how the A. m. mellifera of Colonsay island, Scotland sometimes would not swarm in a season, but just supercede their queens.


http://www.snhbs.scot/colonsay/


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

msl said:


> No one is saying AMM is gone, plenty were brought in, but for some reason when people find a feral black bee they want to call it a british black bee, a survivor.. and they say "see its a AMM!!!, proof"
> AMM has bee all over the contentent for years and years... here is what it looked like 60 years ago... Once again the person remixing the data are doing the AMM=native thing
> 
> 
> ...


Where A. m. mellifera is dominant in that range map, there is lower populated areas:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/dvambe


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

(PDF) Standard methods for rearing and selection of Apis mellifera queens


PDF | Here we cover a wide range of methods currently in use and recommended in modern queen rearing, selection and breeding. The recommendations are... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net





like all things the hives need to be under the same management to eveauate


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> like all things the hives need to be under the same management...


Thanks, MSL. Nice find. That paper covers a lot of ground.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

it what I ment to post at the start, but instead I took a walk in the weeds on the political BBB


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> ... but instead I took a walk in the weeds on the political BBB


If we didn't have something to debate, we'd run out of things to talk about during the winter months- it was a good discussion.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Litsinger said:


> Thanks, Oldtimer. Good post. I assume by 'gone' you mean gone in New Zealand?


I would guess that, far off in the wild lands of New Zealand, some of the 'black' strains can still be found.
Here in Hawaii, where we had the 'German' blacks which were noted for their nervous behavior on the comb, with the advent of varroa, the ferals pretty much died out. But ately I have been told that their exist some small feral hives in wild areas. These have been found in caves isolated from the domestic bees by the fact that there is nowhere nearby where a domestic beekeeper can keep his hives. I'd guess that the same could be true of New Zealand.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

HaplozygousNut said:


> A. m. carnica are said to be very swarmy and they are of the C-lineage. But it seems to vary from strain to strain because I bought brother Adam's book on his searching for the best strains of bees, and it talks about the differences of swarming tendencies between the different populations of A. m. carnica. The Banat bees from Hungary were less swarmy, if I remember correctly, and the "Greek bees" (actually carnica or macedonica, not cecropia) of northern Greece I think he said had a low swarming tendency, too. I need to bring Brother Adam's book to quote the interesting parts.
> 
> 
> Brother Adam wrote about how some strains of German black bees were less swarmy and some very swarmy. I think it was the Heathland bees of the Netherlands (mellifera mellifera lehzeni) that he said were very swarmy.
> ...


Here, I found Brother Adam's "In Search Of The Best Strains Of Bees" book. 

Quotes:

Different strains of A. m. carnica:

The typical Carniolan

Page 174:
_*"We know that the extent of the spread of the Carniolan comprises more or less the whole of South-East Europe. It is not surprising then that in this very large area, with its variations of climate and environment, there should be a number of sub-varieties of this race. For all we know, the Italian may well be a yellow form of the Carniolan."*_

Page 172:
*"In our experience the almost uncontrollable swarming urge of the Carniolan is her most uneconomical trait."

"There are differences in the swarming tendencies between the various strains and the breeding material which we obtained from those places where beekeeping is confined to primitive hives. These last strains show an even more marked tendency to swarm."*

Page 173:
*"the real Carniolan will use wax in place of propolis. Unfortunately, in the current commercial strains this unique quality has been largely lost, as also the disposition to cap the honey white - which I regard as two of the characteristic qualities of this race."*

"Greek bee" (A. m. carnica of northern Greece?)
Page 175:
_*"There are no marked differences externally between the Greek bee and the Carniolan, apart from the tendency for an occasional leather-coloured band to show up more frequently. Nor is there any material differences in gentleness between the two races but, in fecundity, the Greek surpasses the Carniolan and in her reluctance to swarm no other race can seemingly equal her."*_

Page 176:
*"As regards her less agreeable qualities, the Greek closely resembles the Anatolian and Caucasian, especially in her excessive use of propolis and construction of brace comb, and her watery, flat cappings. But these failings are far less prominent in the Greek, indeed, there are strains in which they hardly appear at all."*

Banat bee
Page 175:
*"We have tried out the Banat bee. Externally she is hardly distinguishable from the typical Carniolan, but she does differ from it in certain characteristics. For example, she propolises more than the ordinary Carniolan, and she builds a large number of queen cells at the onset of the swarming fever, which the Carniolan does not do. She is on the whole perhaps not so prone to swarm, but apart from this she possesses no characteristics of any economic value which is not present in the Carniolan in a more developed form.*


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Brother Adam's "In Search Of The Best Strains Of Bees" book.

Quotes:

Apis mellifera mellifera different strains:

French bee
Page 196:
_*"The strains in Southern France are generally very prolific with a loosely arranged brood pattern. In the northern half of the country, there is a progressive falling off in fecundity and a tendency to a more compact brood pattern. The swarming tendency is very much more pronounced in the southern strains than those of the north."*_

*"The Tellian and its Iberian sub-variety makes very watery cappings without any space between the honey and cappings."*

_*"Among the French bees we came across strains with white cappings, however, not of the perfection of the finish as made by the old English native bee; that is, pearl-white, raised and dome-shaped, and the outline of each cell clearly visible."*_

Page 197:
*"As we know, the French bee is black or dark brown, very aggressive, and given to stinging, extremely nervous and prone to swarm, propolises badly, and is highly susceptible to every known disease and abnormality of the brood as well as acarine. Yet in spite of this series of bad characteristics, we were able within a period of seven years, to develop from a cross with our own strain, a new type which in colour was a deep golden, a golden tint which was farm more attractive and striking than any other golden bee which has so far come to my notice. What was of greater importance, this new bee virtually could not be provoked to sting, and showed itself more gentle than the gentlest of Caucasians. It was, moreover, very quiet in behaviour, betraying not the least trace of nervousness when manipulated, did not swarm or propolise, was very prolific, excellent in performance, and showed no sign of any brood abnormality. ---------------------Unfortunately, this new bee had one major drawback: it was extremely susceptible to acarine, a defect apparent all along in the French stock and which again came to light in a highly accentuated form in the new type."*

Page 199:
N i g r a 
_*"As I have already pointed out, the further north one goes in France the more noticeable a progressive gradation in the harsher racial traits of the typical French bee. In place of the exceptional fecundity and loose brood pattern, we find a more limited laying power and a compact brood-nest. In the Swiss 'N i g r a' we have these developments at their fullest extent, with the exception of colour. In the N i g r a the pitch black of the Tellian reappears in a completely undiluted form."*_


The old English bee
Page 199:
_*"This dark brown bee was the possessor of quite an extraordinary assembly of most valuable economic qualities, but in a much more disciplined form than found in her two nearest relatives, the N i g r a and French bee. The main difference between the English and the other two was that the former had a very restricted fecundity."*_

Page: 196:
_*"Among the French bees we came across strains with white cappings, however, not of the perfection of the finish as made by the old English native bee; that is, pearl-white, raised and dome-shaped, and the outline of each cell clearly visible." *_

Heath bee
Page 201:
*"known in England as the 'Dutch bee'"*
_*"The Heath bee is commonly regarded as a special race because of her extreme proclivity to swarming."*_


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

HaplozygousNut said:


> I have been wondering whether some of the swarmy strains or subspecies of bees might have the ability to not be swarmy in bad seasons. Swarming too much can be deadly in bad seasons, but in good nectar seasons they could multiply and fill all the tree hollows available with the many afterswarms that survive. I have heard of beekeepers having a lot of trouble with swarming during powerful nectar flows or good years, with the colonies sending a lot of afterswarms.


Are you presuming reproductive swarming, requeen swarming, Hygienic swarming, or some mix?
then there is Mismanagement swarming, And absconds ..

GG


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Gray Goose said:


> Are you presuming reproductive swarming, requeen swarming, Hygienic swarming, or some mix?
> then there is Mismanagement swarming, And absconds ..
> 
> GG


Just reproductive swarming. What is hygienic swarming? The African bees do migration swarming, too. And there are small usurpation swarms during the dearth, although usurpation swarming might be triggered by alleviation in the dearth.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

HaplozygousNut said:


> Just reproductive swarming. What is hygienic swarming? The African bees do migration swarming, too. And there are small usurpation swarms during the dearth, although usurpation swarming might be triggered by alleviation in the dearth.


Hygienic swarming is the bees hope to either leave the diseased hive behind and start a new one say it had foulbrood, or the bees hope the swarm carries away the problem as in Mites on bees. At time when a hive seems lagging then decides to swarm this has come to play a role. I'll add migration swarming to my list thanks.

GG


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