# Disaster



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Are there dead adults in the cells or on the bottom? If not your TBH is CCD.


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## Zonker (Mar 10, 2010)

I here lots of good things about ventilation. Did you have a bottom screen?


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> Are there dead adults in the cells or on the bottom? If not your TBH is CCD.


Or varroa mites, tracheal mites, afb, nosema could have been the cause


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

Well this hive was strong, idk about mites ect, they seemed to die early winter all of them are inside the hive, whats strange is they all seemed wet, even the dead ones on the comb, I had only a single hole 2" from the bottom on all my hives. I'm wondering if a top entrance would have prevented this... 


Sam.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

With no upper escape the heat from the bees condensated on the cover and dripped back down on the bees. Just an opinion.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

Yea thats what I'm thinking to, but would it be enough to kill all my hives, these are first year hives, my first winter with bees... Not a pleasant spring. I'm using almost exactly the same hive design as the barefoot beekeeper except for a solid floor. 


Sam.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

In freezing cold weather it is easier for bees to move up then it is to move over to access honey stores. Did you have lots of bees head first in side of the cells in the cluster of the large hives? If they were then the condensation could have froze on the cover, the bees died from starvation, then the weather got warm and the condensation(frost) melted down on top of the already dead bees making them wet.


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## Zonker (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm beginning to wonder if its possible to have too much ventilation. I keep thinking about adding a chimney to the hives in the summer to really get the ventilation going.


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## beenovice (Jun 19, 2007)

Zonker said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if its possible to have too much ventilation. I keep thinking about adding a chimney to the hives in the summer to really get the ventilation going.


I only have three holes 1" during the season and one opened during winter ( on the long sides at one end ). Solid floor, no chimney, ventilation, etc. 
Third year and no problems at all. Cold, damp winters ( weeks with -20 celzius ) and hot summers ( up to 38 celzius ). Bush design. 

Bees love it. I keep colonies in frame hives also but TBH is just, well better in my case so I am getting rid of frame hives for now and going up in numbers with only TBHs and skeps. 


As far as OP is concerned. Bees were probably wet because like he said they probably died early in the winter. Maybe not much food in crucial months when queen was laying winter bees...consequence ... not much bees left for winter and the old ones just died like they would anyway ?


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## Zonker (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm a total novice beekeeper so my opinions are worth .... but it seems like the inside of the hive should be dry particularly if the bees are not exhaling moisture (because they're dead). Maybe the problem was just some sort of simple leakage.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

I'm glad the design works beenovice, and condensation melting on the bees afterwords makes sense, I don't see how they could starve with something like 60lb of honey still in hive... It looks like they all died in the same spot they started the winter, idk could a week queen cause this? Zonker is right I hadn't thought of this how would the bees get wet if they are all dead, although I have seen dead hives that are moldy and soaked the living ones seem a lot dryer... I didn't see a large number of starved bees ether..
All five hives re-queened themselves half way through the year. Knowing the reason why this happened is important to me because if I get more bees and they die I'm at square one again.. At this point I'm not sure if I want to continue with this project if they will just die on me.


Sam.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Sam-Smith said:


> Well this hive was strong, idk about mites ect, they seemed to die early winter all of them are inside the hive, whats strange is they all seemed wet, even the dead ones on the comb, I had only a single hole 2" from the bottom on all my hives. I'm wondering if a top entrance would have prevented this...


Sad, but an opportunity to learn. Can your local bee inspector get samples analyzed? That would give you some hard info instead of OP's guesses.

If they really died out before winter, suspect failed queens (unlikely for 5 to fail unless all from same source), or failed supersedure, or massive varroa load, or viruses... this is why you need to get them checked.

Personally, I think top ventilation in your climate would only have accelerated their deaths. IMO insulation should be at the top, ventilation at the bottom: keep the rising warm, air in; let the cool, damp air fall out.

And IMO one hole in a big TBH is nowhere near enough ventilation.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

I just found this:


Bees In Winter

The Principal Causes of Heavy losses.
How to Prevent Them. 

A goodly number of apiarists expressed
themselves concerning the cause and
prevention of winter losses of bees in the
columns of The American Bee Journal
recently. Professor A. J. Cook laid the
losses to poor food and severe cod and
suggested as a preventive good food
and good cellar or thorough packing.
*M. Makin believes that the principal
cause is dampness and want of ventilation
He says, "since I have given my
bees plenty of ventilation at the bottom
of the hive I lose scarcely any bees."*

G. W. Demaree wrote: "Long, cold
winters are the causes of loss. When
the winter is open and moderate, I never
lose any colonies, but when long, hard
winters overtake the bees some colonies
Perish." His remedy consists in protecting
the bees every season as thought every
winter was severely cold.

Mrs. L. Harrison said: "The cause of
so many bees dying last winter was
the severe long continued cold weather.
In cleaning out hives where bees have
died foul air appears to be one factor.
The weather was so severe that bees
could not clean house, and the dead accumulated,
closing up the entrance.
We hear of bees coming thru in good
condition in old hives split from top to bottom.
I cleaned out a hive that had contained a very large
colony and was well supplied with honey.
The hive was a close, well painted one, with new
muslin, and the cap filled with dry maple
leaves. The entrance was so clogged
with dead bees robbers could not enter."

J. E. Pond writes: "It is difficult to
say generally what the principal reasons 
for heavy winter losses are. So many
factors enter into the problem that each 
case is an individual reason for winter
losses in my own locality - Massachusetts. 
1 can suggest nothing that has
not been made public in textbooks and
bee journals for years. Study them carefully,
and you will get about all the light
there is on the subject."

Mr. Dadant said that the causes of loss
are long confinement and unsealed honey.
He advised keeping the bees in a well
sheltered place where they can have a
flight at every chance. He believes that
the colonies that winter best are those
that have a flight when it seems sure
death for bees to venture out.

An apiarist writing from Canada said:
"Our losses in Canada during the past
winter were light. A light honey flow,
or a honey flow which breaks off early,
I believe, usually precedes heavy winter
losses. I have great faith in the statement
that *bees will winter with reasonable
certainty if they get sufficient proper
stores, have a good queen and are kept 
in proper condition during winter.* The
rules of health and life are as fixed with
the bee as any other animal."


The Cedar Rapids Evening Gazette
Tuesday, November 21, 1893 Cedar Rapids, Iowa

Thanks to Historical Honeybee Articles


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## Monie (Feb 13, 2008)

What rotten luck. I'm sorry for your losses. When I opened my hive, for the first time this year, I noticed a bit of condensation on the inner cover. I put about 2 lbs of dry sugar on in mid winter and they had just about a softball size piece left. I say piece, since it was hard. This year, I'll put more dry sugar on if for nothing more than to completely absorb the condensation.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

One strange thing I noticed was the 3 hives that were the largest had the last 1-2 combs open and I could smell spoiled honey, idk would this foul the air and cause massive death? I'm wondering if I should have left more holes open...

Sam.


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## Zonker (Mar 10, 2010)

I noticed you mentioned pushing the bars together in your first post. Are the bars also your roof?


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

No I have a outer roof for the hive design I have.

Sam.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

Sorry about your difficulties and admire your initiative. Starting 5 hives right out of the box is ambitious.

I have 5 Langstroth hives and one top bar. I hopped the TBH would be stronger going into the winter and haven't checked on them yet. I'm hopeful but bracing. 

I'll give it another go if they failed, but if I were in your shoes, I'd first take a garden hose to then to see if they leak because I doubt if wet bees will make it through the cold let alone freeze.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

I'm sure they don't leak, the lid is a single sheet of galv steel, the tb's never get wet. So far I'm leaning towards not enough ventilation, idk if the spoiled honey is a contributor. I have a bad feeling I will never find out. 


Sam.


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## Zonker (Mar 10, 2010)

Spoiled honey is strange. Honey is suppose to be pretty bullet proof. Do wax moths and small hive beetle larva cause honey to spoil? and have you asked your local government inspector dude to take a look?


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

I say spoiled honey because it was uncapped and before it is fully dehydrated it will spoil if let sit for a while, I don't know were they found nectar that late in the season though.

Sam.


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## Abha (Apr 18, 2009)

I had a disaster too. I started last year with two hives--my first year. Both are dead. I think it was a ventilation problem. The hives were pretty full of honey, but the comb caps were a nasty grey green color--covered with mold. I have got to figure out how to vent them--it would kill me to have it happen again.

I got 3 pound packages of Italians last year. I am going for 4 pound Carniolians. I live in the PNW (Seattle) and the guy who is selling me the packages said that that breed fares better in this climate.

I made some awful mistakes last year--I got off to a bad start. I sure hope I do better this year. This mess was really discouraging.



Abha


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

Lol yea I know the feeling, I am planning to drill 8 holes in the floor 7/8" large along the length and screen them on the inside, this gives me the ability to cork them if its to many and should generate enough airflow I hope without making the hives drafty.
I actually have a small puddle in a few of my hives, didn't realise my craftsmanship was so airtight =D

Sam.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

Well cleaned out all my hives today, one thing they all had in common was they were all soggy, so I'm going to say (untill I find out otherwise) that the main problem is lack of ventilation, It was strange bees would be clumped in small clusters looking starved right beside a big spot of honey on the same side of the same comb. Any Ontario beeks know about finding swarm lists? Unless its no different then anywhere else.


Sam.


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## b.walden (Jan 16, 2010)

So as a noob I have a question; How do I go about closing the bottom of my THB? It is wide open now but should I use screen or a solid bottom with screened holes? We get our bees April 26th and I need to finish this up soon.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Sam-Smith said:


> I say spoiled honey because it was uncapped and before it is fully dehydrated it will spoil if let sit for a while, I don't know were they found nectar that late in the season though.


Was it actually honey, or did you feed them late?

If you feed syrup beyond the time when the temps are high enough for them to reduce the water content below about 20%, it will ferment. You will also have introduced a lot of extra water into the hive.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

b.walden said:


> So as a noob I have a question; How do I go about closing the bottom of my THB? It is wide open now but should I use screen or a solid bottom with screened holes? We get our bees April 26th and I need to finish this up soon.


It's your decision. You need to consider other posts here that deal with this issue, and your local conditions.

IMO adequate, floor level ventilation is one of the most important considerations in hive design.


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## MeriB (Mar 15, 2010)

Some thoughts from the classes I have been taking:
Ventilation is very important, air must circulate throught the hive. 
Wind protection is huge.
Bees can't move sideways to get food when they are in cluster.


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## MeriB (Mar 15, 2010)

I am putting a screened bottom in my hive and a hinge attached bottom board that I can swing up and close off the bottom during harsh weather.


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## b.walden (Jan 16, 2010)

This is what I am confused about. If bees can't move sideways then how do they get food durning the winter. In a TBH there is no moving up, and I don't want to open the hive in the winter.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

b. walden,
From what I understand, that is one of the shortcomings with TBH's, they are all horizontal and not vertical. Their normal configuration makes it more difficult to winter the bees in colder climates.


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## b.walden (Jan 16, 2010)

I guess we will just have to deal with it as it comes, I will have all summer to figure something out.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

MeriB said:


> Bees can't move sideways to get food when they are in cluster.


It's amazing how these myths get started. Do they really think that after 50+ million years of evolution, bees haven't figured out how to move sideways to get food?

The fact that TBHs work at all should be enough evidence that this is baloney, but if you examin the combs in a typical TBH, you will see that bees often make tunnels through combs - usually just under the bars - to enable them to go the short way from comb to comb, rather than going around the outside edge.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

buckbee said:


> It's amazing how these myths get started. Do they really think that after 50+ million years of evolution, bees haven't figured out how to move sideways to get food?


I don't think it's a myth at all. Of course they will move to the side if they are able. But, if it's cold enough they can't. Wintess a colony with a cluster stuck on one side of the hive and with honey 2 combs away...to the side. I and just about every beekeeper with any experience has seen these colonies starve. If they are so able to move sideways, then why didn't they? It's all about the temperature....and cluster size.

And tell me...whatever happened to the K...

It was dropped from the name of the hive. The full name is KTBH...Kenya Top Bar Hive. Perfect hive for keeping bees in Kenya, hanging in trees. Maybe not so good in a cold climate like northern North America.

I winter hundreds of nucleus colonies. Most are double 4 frame nucs. But, some bet expanded to 8 combs. The cluster is usually on the entrance side of the box. I've seen too many of these nucs not move over, so I decided to start nucs this past summer that expanded up with the addition of 4 frame supers. Right now I have beautiful clusters in both top and bottom...the clusters are able to move up onto the honey above. So, while they certainly will move sideways if it's warm enough, they can't always. They can always move up.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

I agree that cluster size - and therefore their control over temperature - is important. This goes alongside emphasizing the need to keep strong colonies, and to provide adequate insulation so they have max control over their environment.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I ran one TBH, my first hive, in Wisconsin in 2008. It survived the winter. I used a Michael Bush type design where the bars are the roof, and then for good measure I put a one inch styrofoam lid which was encased in scrap plywood on top of that. 
It only had one entrance, a top one, which was just the first bar held back 3/8 inch. The lid overlapped it by an inch to keep the rain out. I reduced this entrance from full width to about 2 inches by putting in little blocks of wood.
The hive entered the winter with comb and honey on all bars almost all the way to the back of it's 4 feet length. The bars were 16 inches long.
The hive was located on a south facing slope with woods north of it. Additionally the bee population was large. The queen was a MH offspring, the original MH queen swarmed in June.
Clearly I was lucky, this is only observational data, but I post it to illustrate that a TBH can survive in bitterly cold northern climes. Don't give up.
Adrian.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

I didn't feed them but they might have found some other source of food, I have read about several people that have a lot of success with this hive design, its only called Kenyan top bar hive because it was made popular relatively recently and only for the sloped sides, its a very old design though, also bees themselves are not native to north America. I'm sure the tbh is usable in winter climates, the presence of uncaped honey and honey on the floor would create a larger humidity issue, humidity becomes condensation, then becomes ice, this could prevent the bees from moving to honey or just chill the colony faster then they could heat.

Sam.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Sorry to hear about what happened, Sam. I had a similar horror - but thankfully not as bad.

I started with two nucs last spring and the colonies grew well, considering the awful wet weather here in NY State. I didn't take a drop of honey figuring they'd need it for the winter. I had one of Sam Comfort's 36 inch hives and another like Phil Chandlers 48 inch with a screened bottom and wood floor. I sealed up this hive too tight and when I opened it, at least half the colony lay dead on the floor. Lots of black and green mold all over the place - even on the outer combs. It was terrible but at least I have some bees. It's back to the size of a nuc colony so it's beginning all over. Sam Comfort's very rustic design with a solid floor did much better. Not as many dead bees and I think this colony will bounce back faster.

I think I'm going to drill a couple of 1 inch holes on the top of each side to allow for convection flow, to cut down on the condensation that surely killed them. 

Any comments regarding this?


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## Zonker (Mar 10, 2010)

I've decided (without any real experience or data) that dry is more important than warm for the bees in winter (conduction v convection), so I'm creating a vented attic space over the bees. I'm going to set it up so that air gets drawn up through the hive and out the roof all summer, then I'll add absorbent insulation in the fall (newspaper) below the attic vents so that the newspaper will dry to the attic side and keep the bees dry.


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## Abha (Apr 18, 2009)

Stone said:


> Sorry to hear about what happened, Sam. I had a similar horror - but thankfully not as bad.
> 
> I started with two nucs last spring and the colonies grew well, considering the awful wet weather here in NY State. I didn't take a drop of honey figuring they'd need it for the winter. I had one of Sam Comfort's 36 inch hives and another like Phil Chandlers 48 inch with a screened bottom and wood floor. I sealed up this hive too tight and when I opened it, at least half the colony lay dead on the floor. Lots of black and green mold all over the place - even on the outer combs. It was terrible but at least I have some bees. It's back to the size of a nuc colony so it's beginning all over. Sam Comfort's very rustic design with a solid floor did much better. Not as many dead bees and I think this colony will bounce back faster.
> 
> ...


I have a hive that is Phil Chandler's design too, and my bees died. You have to remember that warm air rises, so if you drill those holes on both side, the warmth could completely ESCAPE from your hive in the winter. I asked Michael Bush who posts here a similar question, and he told me to drill them on the top on ONE side only. You don't what to create a wind tunnel in there.


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## Zonker (Mar 10, 2010)

I think its just like a tropical bird cage. Completely dry with plenty of air but no drafts.


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## Abha (Apr 18, 2009)

Zonker said:


> I've decided (without any real experience or data) that dry is more important than warm for the bees in winter (conduction v convection), so I'm creating a vented attic space over the bees. I'm going to set it up so that air gets drawn up through the hive and out the roof all summer, then I'll add absorbent insulation in the fall (newspaper) below the attic vents so that the newspaper will dry to the attic side and keep the bees dry.


I live in the PNW, it rains rains rains a lot here in Seattle. So the damp can really do the bees in. Your local climate conditions are nearly everything.

Here is what David Neel a local beekeeper who runs *Island Apiaries* said to me in email:

_"While in an average humidity environment that [a quilt box] works great, here the big bee killer is the higher than average humidity we have. The average winter temp we have here is 42 degrees F. While it does drop lower than that, it is for relatively short periods. I feel that efforts to keep heat in here are largely pointless exercises, from the bees point of view, we don't have a real winter. the bees that do well here- Carniolians, Russians, Buckfasts,etc all originate from areas that have a MUCH colder winter. any effort to keep heat in for them is pointless here and even in the best of circumstances will trap humidity. I am a BIG proponent of screened bottom boards and for the majority of the year, I leave them open ( I will frequently throw away the slide in board that comes with commercial units). A strong winter cluster will maintain a 93-98 degree temp in the center even in the worst of winters here and the bees can stand exposure to 20-30's with no ill effects for several hours. with the way they cycle through to the center of the cluster to warm up, they really never are exposed to low temps for that long.

I use a laser thermometer to check the temp from the outside of the hive regularly and if a hive is failing, I will use a probe thermometer to check the actual cluster itself. if they seem to be too small to keep temps up, I will slide a perforated plastic board under the hive to help them out. I mark these hives and check humidity every other day to make sure it is not climbing too fast and remove and replace the insert to counter increases.

Since I started doing this, my winter losses have dropped to a small fraction of what they were before.

feel that much of the winter losses in our area are due to humidity and not nosema, mites or CCD. The fact that we have a fairly unusual micro climate here in the PNW is not covered in any books, so the average beekeeper does what they read in books that are aimed at the rest of the country and then wonders why their hives are having troubles.

I feel that beekeeping needs to be approached regionally and most of your advise needs to come from other beekeepers who have kept bees successfully in your area."_


I think he is spot on.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Abha, 
Yes, convection is indeed an interesting phenomenon. As a science teacher, it's difficult for me to dispel the myth to my students that hot air rises. It does NOT. Cold (read "lower temperature") air is denser and heavier, fills up an area (on the bottom of a room, for example) and actually PUSHES up (and out if there is a window) the lighter, less dense warm air, as it takes up space. The _illusion_ is that warm air rises. Anyone who wants to get rid of the odors of cooking opens up the bottoms and tops of the windows for this reason - although they are unaware of the science of it.

In addition, it is the warm air that is more able to hold moisture - cold air has less of a capacity to do so. For condensation to occur, air must _cool_ to the dew point. Witness, condensation on the outside of an iced glass on a summer day: The dew point is being reached on the surface of the glass where warm, moist air hits cold surface. 

All this may help us understand how to best care for the girls during the winter. I don't want to set up a "wind tunnel", but there must be a way to allow this warm moist air to escape in the most efficient way. Perhaps Michael Bush's idea of holes at the top of ONE side may be a good idea.

Anyone have ideas?


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Zonker,
I'm interested in the details of the vented attic space you mentioned. Can you elaborate on details?


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Typo Previously corrected in original post as an edit.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Abha said:


> I have a hive that is Phil Chandler's design too, and my bees died.


Sorry to hear that. How was it set up - mesh or solid floor? When did they die, and what cause did you identify?




> _
> I feel that beekeeping needs to be approached regionally and most of your advise needs to come from other beekeepers who have kept bees successfully in your area.
> _


I absolutely agree. The one-size-fits-all approach to beekeeping is disastrous, as many development projects have found when they tried to run Langs in Africa.


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

If warm air at the top of the hive meets the cold air from outside the top of the hive, it will cause condensation over the cluster, right? I put a bale of hay on top of my hive to prevent this in my one and only first year tbh. They made it, whew. I put bales on each side, not the front or back, for wind breaks, they were not tight against it. Its windy here too, so the bale of hay on top gave me assurance it wouldn't be blown over. Wouldn't a bale of hay on top mimic the top if a tree, (cellulose) for insulation and prevent condensation, and same for a quilt box in a warre. Perhaps tbhs in northern climates should incorporate an insulated roof, or top. I do not have a screened bb.
Good luck,
Carrie


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

Stone said:


> Abha,
> Yes, convection is indeed an interesting phenomenon. As a science teacher, it's difficult for me to dispel the myth to my students that hot air rises. It does NOT. Cold (read "lower temperature") air is denser and heavier, fills up an area (on the bottom of a room, for example) and actually PUSHES up (and out if there is a window) the lighter, less dense warm air, as it takes up space. The _illusion_ is that warm air rises. Anyone who wants to get rid of the odors of cooking opens up the bottoms and tops of the windows for this reason - although they are unaware of the science of it.
> 
> In addition, it is the warm air that is more able to hold moisture - cold air has less of a capacity to do so. For condensation to occur, air must _cool_ to the dew point. Witness, condensation on the outside of an iced glass on a summer day: The dew point is being reached on the surface of the glass where warm, moist air hits cold surface.
> ...


Excellent, I was trying to imagine what airflow would look like inside the hives, Thanks! 
What I did was drill a 7/8" hole every 6" along the bottom of my 48" tbh then screened them on the inside, I also moved the entrance to the top of one side on the wall, 4x 7/8" holes spaced 8cm apart, this should give me a small amount of upper venting. The reason for 7/8" is that standard wine corks fit perfectly, so for a smaller colony I would plug some holes.
I was thinking about drafts inside the hives and wondering how the bees managed them, since I have seen them nest in attics barns ect, the comb is a very good air baffle 1/2" from all the walls running across the space inside the tbh, this plus the bees themselves pack the spaces between about 1/2" seems like a very effective air management system. It also explains (at least to me) why one 7/8" hole wasn't enough ventilation :doh: I think they can manage some exposure but humidity drastically reduces the ability to stay warm, not to mention running out of oxygen, the circulation profile of a tbh is different then a lang, the lang would be a bit like a chimney so a small entrance at the top and bottom might be enough... Mind you this is all speculation.

Thanks all for the encouragement and ideas.
Sam.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Stone said:


> Abha,
> Yes, convection is indeed an interesting phenomenon. As a science teacher, it's difficult for me to dispel the myth to my students that hot air rises. It does NOT.


So when I light a candle and the smoke rises directly above the flame, that is some kind of illusion?

And the fact that I can feel heat above a radiator and much less below it?

Did I miss something in science class?


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

buckbee said:


> So when I light a candle and the smoke rises directly above the flame, that is some kind of illusion?
> 
> And the fact that I can feel heat above a radiator and much less below it?
> 
> Did I miss something in science class?


I don't think you missed anything in science class at all. As I said, it's difficult to dispel the myth that hot air rises. It is _pushed _up by lower temperature air. Remember that the lower temperature air is all around the candle, and radiator, so the warmed air - which is lighter and denser - has nowhere to go but UP. We can argue all we want with the principles of thermodynamics and physics, but we'll lose. It's just the way things are. 

One of the reasons I love the principles of science is that you can always depend on them.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

It only rises in the presence of cooler air, if all air was hot it wouldn't rise.. It's the difference in mass that causes one to displace the other.. I love science.


Sam.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Sam-Smith said:


> It only rises in the presence of cooler air, if all air was hot it wouldn't rise.. It's the difference in mass that causes one to displace the other.. I love science.
> 
> 
> Sam.


So do I, Sam. And you are right; that's what I tried to explain previously. But I'll speculate that there is always lower temperature air present in an area - unless one is in a vacuum. You can test this idea in any area with several thermometers. 

But back to the bees: I think what may be happening in the hive is that when the lower temperature air meets the heated air near the cluster, the dew point is reached. Unless this warmer, saturated air has an escape route, moisture condenses on the bees on the outside of the cluster, lowering their temperatures. They remain constantly wet, cool air continually hits them and they slowly succumb, drop off and die, and the cluster size gradually diminishes. I know the bees on the outside of the cluster are constantly rotating to the inside but I figure this has got to take a toll on them over the months - especially during cold snaps. Then the dampness creates a mold situation in the hive that makes matters worse. 

I'm very new to beekeeping and I'm sure others probably have ideas of what may be going on. I'd love to hear them.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Sounds like someone is describing the bouyant force. Eureka.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

I think the mold is only a problem when the weather starts to warm up (at least in the north) I remember seeing ice inside the hive during the winter I just don't know how much there was, our winters get very dry the bees and maby some uncapped honey are the main moisture producers imho, same net result though. Thats why I moved my entrances to the top, I also spaced them further apart, they were 6cm apart before now they are 8cm, that plus the vents in the floor should provide good ventilation without to much draft. "crosses fingers" I'm not sure what else I can actually do with my hives without totally redesigning them.

Sam.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

If you place a sheet of glass or plastic over a colony in winter, the part immediately above the bees gets warm. I don't care if it because warm air rises (and I still think it does) or because it was pushed: the fact remains that bees emit heat that finds itself somehow above the cluster.

Now if that air contains a deal of moisture - which it should - and then it hits a cold surface, like an un-insulated roof, it will release that moisture in the form of condensation, which - because the cold surface is now warmer because of the (rising) heat, will mostly form around the edges and the adjacent vertical sides, and then drip back down into the hive, in time enabling mo(u)ld to form in areas unheated by bees.

If, instead of a thin roof, you have a thick layer of vapour-permeable insulation, such as straw or wood shavings, the water-laden air will filter out through the insulation and cause no harm. This mimics pretty well what happens naturally in a hollow tree, which also has the benefit of absorbent walls.

If you also have adequate, floor-level ventilation, the hive will stay dry and the bees will be able to maintain their cluster temperature.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

Ok for clarification this is what my hives look like,

http://s803.photobucket.com/albums/yy317/topbarsam/top bar hives/

No way water is forming under the tin and dripping on the top bars.


Mould wont form in sub zero temps, thats why in my location the bees only have a mould problem once they come through the winter..
I'm hoping (because many people have tried it) that more bottom venting will work.

Interesting fact about the outer bees rotating with the core ones for warmth, didn't know that Stone. 

Sam.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Nice job, Sam!

Might be worth putting something between the bars and the metalwork, as that stuff will get hot in the sun. You don't want a melt-down and more than a chill.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Beautiful hives, Sam!

Regarding the mold: When I opened my hives last weekend for the first time after our winter here, there was A LOT of mold as I had described previously. It was very disturbing. Could be the temperatures never got down low enough in the hive to inhibit mold growth. Or it could be that mold does okay in cold temps. I don't know how low temps have to get to stop mold from growing but I do know that forgotten bread and cheese in the back of my refrigerator has no problem growing it!


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

Lol, did your bees survive? Idk never thought about mould growing in cold temps, we get pretty low here -30c in extreme cases. 
The tin isn't next to the wood so air can move between, the top bars never heat up.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Does it get misty/foggy in the night/morning where the hives are located?

It might be hard to get rid of dampness by ventilating if that's the case.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> I don't think it's a myth at all. Of course they will move to the side if they are able. But, if it's cold enough they can't. Wintess a colony with a cluster stuck on one side of the hive and with honey 2 combs away...to the side. I and just about every beekeeper with any experience has seen these colonies starve. If they are so able to move sideways, then why didn't they? It's all about the temperature....and cluster size.
> 
> I've had this exact scenario happen a number of times--small cluster and extended period of cold with lots of stores to the side. I lost 2 hives this winter just this way.
> 
> I've always read how important winter ventilation is. Cold in itself will not kill a strong colony with accessable stores, but wet conditions will.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Sam-Smith said:


> Lol, did your bees survive? Idk never thought about mould growing in cold temps, we get pretty low here -30c in extreme cases.


Yes, they survived - but barely. I lost half the bees in the colony, at least. As I think about it more now, if all the bees had survived the poor ventilation, many might have starved instead. Even though I took no honey from them, I noticed they hardly had any left from their stores. 

I'm learning a very great deal from the postings on this forum. I'm thinking about how to best ventilate my hives in the future.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

Stone said:


> Yes, they survived - but barely. I lost half the bees in the colony, at least. As I think about it more now, if all the bees had survived the poor ventilation, many might have starved instead. Even though I took no honey from them, I noticed they hardly had any left from their stores.
> 
> I'm learning a very great deal from the postings on this forum. I'm thinking about how to best ventilate my hives in the future.



I bet they went through their stores faster because they were damp [imho]


Sam.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

Sam

I just checked and my TBH failed. Since they started as a late swarm, I'm guessing that they didn't build up enough. Since they left plenty of syrup behind so I also suspect they didn't have enough comb to create sufficient stores.

I also lost one of my lang hives from a split. This surprised me because they looked the strongest out of 5 and had survived up until about 3 weeks ago. Maybe they were actually about finished then. I can't even guess why and doubt I'll ever figure it out.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

throrope said:


> Sam
> 
> I just checked and my TBH failed. Since they started as a late swarm, I'm guessing that they didn't build up enough. Since they left plenty of syrup behind so I also suspect they didn't have enough comb to create sufficient stores.
> 
> I also lost one of my lang hives from a split. This surprised me because they looked the strongest out of 5 and had survived up until about 3 weeks ago. Maybe they were actually about finished then. I can't even guess why and doubt I'll ever figure it out.


Heartbreaking isn't it? I was almost as sad as when I had to put down my dog. Which is strange because they are just bugs. Not knowing for sure what got them is kinda annoying too.


Sam.


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## Zonker (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm thinking about adding a 1/8 notch to the length of each bar so the the bars can ventilate up through the attic, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to vent the attic. Putting extra hole through the roof doesn't seem like a good idea.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Zonker said:


> I'm thinking about adding a 1/8 notch to the length of each bar so the the bars can ventilate up through the attic, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to vent the attic. Putting extra hole through the roof doesn't seem like a good idea.


My ventilation idea is to duplicate what I do in my own kitchen. Using the principle of a simple convection cell, I just open up the top and bottom of the windows a little. Cooler, denser, heavier air comes in, hits the floor and pushes the warmer, lighter air up and out the top window. Takes out warm odor filled air in no time! I do the same thing upstairs in the bedrooms when the wood stove in the living room back puffs and sends out a bunch of smoke upstairs. 

I figure I'll drill a few 1/2" holes on the long side up near the top bars. The cooler air will enter through the bottom hole entrances (on the same side), get warmed by the cluster, then cycle around and out the top holes. No wind tunnel effect - just remove the warm moist air to hopefully provide a gentle, effective ventilation. I reckon you can think of these holes on top as a chimney of sorts.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

$10 says they propolize them over. :lookout:


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

I've used cork-sized hole ventilation toward the top of my hives, and the hives we sell actually have 3 such holes and I find that the bees propolize and unpropolize as they desire. 

Matt


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Cacklewack said:


> I've used cork-sized hole ventilation toward the top of my hives, and the hives we sell actually have 3 such holes and I find that the bees propolize and unpropolize as they desire.
> 
> Matt


Cool!  They control their window openings too!


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