# 4.9 small foundation



## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Yup, 

I shoved a couple of packages onto mann lk plastic (4.9x cell) last spring along with one frame of drawn out regular foundation to give them something to work with and then migrated that one frame out to the end and then removed it as the season progressed.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

March of this year I purchased two large cell colonies (all deeps). I then bought 20 honey supercell small cell plastic (drawn plastic) and mannlakeltd, small cell plastic frames for medium boxes (and enough deeps to replace the original large cell deeps). Captured a wild swarm. Started the wild swarm on small cell (mann lake) and began making splits into honey supercells (small cells). Began working the large cell deep frames out by replacing with Mannlakeltd (small cell) plastic frames. Currently only have two large cells frames left from the original deeps, which will come out this week and then all of my colonies will be on small cell.

All my splits went directly to small cells. Currently have 8 colonies on small cells.


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## PCM (Sep 18, 2007)

I have 5 hives all started out on Mann-Lake 120 small cell plastic, 3rd year,
I'm satisfied.

Bee Keeping is Local
Remember what works for me may not work for you,

Good Luck PCM


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Has anyone successfully started out with the small foundation?

I have put packages on all of the following to get small cell:

Mann Lake PF100 plastic frames/foundation series (in my case PF120s for mediums that are 4.95mm). They drew them 4.95mm right off the bat and did well.

The old Dadant plastic 4.9mm. They would not draw it no matter what I did. I kept scraping off the messes they would make but they would not draw it on the plastic. They would draw it at right angles to the plastic and out away from the plastic, but not on it. I gave up.

Dadant 4.9mm wax from various sources, but Dadant makes it. They typically drew it 5.1mm. Some of it was 5.2mm. Some packages made some crazy comb out of it, but most drew it ok.

PermaComb wax dipped. Instant acceptance and instant 4.9mm equivalent cells.

PermaComb unwaxed. Some hesitation to accept it but they would use it. It's probably the equivalent (taking thickness of cell wall and taper of the cell into account) of 5.0mm. Once it's in use it's accepted well.

Honey Super Cell. A lot of hesitation. It seems to set them back about three weeks, but once they are using it it is well accepted and they do well. It's 4.9mm. 

Foundationless and starter strips. First try they build somewhere between 5.1mm and 4.7mm. It varies a lot by package and a lot by location. I often get a core of 4.7mm with the edges larger the first try, but not always.


> Should I just buy all small foundation from the beginning? 

I would. Certainly if your intent is to end up with small cell, the easiest time to do it is from the start. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#whatisregression

I seem to get questions constantly asking whether to install a package on 5.4mm foundation first since they can't draw 4.9mm wax foundation well. First they don't always draw it badly. Second. If you want to get back to natural or small cell size, it is NEVER to your advantage to use the already too large foundation they are already using. That is simply going nowhere at all. With a package, if you do so, you will have missed the opportunity to get a full step of regression. Dee Lusby's method is to do shakedowns (shake all the bees off of all the combs) onto 4.9mm foundation and then another shakedown onto 4.9mm to finish the main regression and then cull out the large comb until they have all 4.9mm in the brood nest. Shakedowns are the fastest method but also a stressful method and when you buy a package you already HAVE a shakedown. I would take advantage of it. If you intend to get back to natural size then STOP using large cell foundation all together. The main challenge is getting all the large cell comb OUT of the hive, so don't make that harder by putting more IN.


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## mattgang (Sep 11, 2009)

Hello Mr. Bush,

I was checking out your website. It's got some interesting stuff on it. Just when I thought I had things figured out I find an entirely different way of doing it. I'm particularly interested in your use of only mediums, and no foundation. It makes sense that I wouldn't want to put contaminated wax into my hives. It also makes sense that being a beginner I won't have old habits to break. It will also cost a lot less to start up with only mediums and no foundation. I suppose maybe I'll start off with some small frame foundation and experiment with open comb. That way I can see what works best for me, and eventually get rid of the contaminated stuff.


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## mattgang (Sep 11, 2009)

I can't find anything on your site about drone foundation. I was planning to buy some drone frames to help with varroa control. What happens with open comb building? The drone must be intermingled with workers right? Won't the varroa be able to get into the drone cells? What do you do about this?

Judging by your website I bet you get a lot of questions. I'd be happy with a link if you have already answered this a few dozen times.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have caught at least 1/2 dozen bait swarms on small cell. 
I am over five years into it, have a dedicated SC apiary, and still see no advantage. Some of the tales that SC keepers tell are just not true here for me. My opinion:

My LC produce more honey

SC bees die off just as fast and much 

SC bees are not gentler. Dee Lusby qoute:"You poor beekeepers without happy healthy small bees............Happy healthy
bees hardly sting" BS- made 19 divides this July and the SC bees were the ones I had to put on my veil for.

SC bees are not more resistant to mites

SC bees are not more resistant to secondary diseases

I keep doing it because they all sound so sincere and convinced, but it more and more to me seems a waste of time, bees and comb. I am debating to buy or not to buy more SC foundation.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

odfrank said:


> I keep doing it because they all sound so sincere and convinced, but it more and more to me seems a waste of time, bees and comb.


Pretty much the same reason I tried. My experience was much like yours odfrank...maybe worse. I think I've finally culled all of the small cell out of my hives and melted down all of the sc foundation I had left.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I can't find anything on your site about drone foundation.

I've never used any. I bought a few sheets once.

> I was planning to buy some drone frames to help with varroa control. 

That was my plan if I had Varroa issues with small cell which I didn't, so I never used it.

>What happens with open comb building? The drone must be intermingled with workers right?

Not necessarily. Often there are whole frames of it. But I never remove them. I move them to the outside edges if I find them in the middle. If you remove them they spend all the same amount of resources again to raise another frame full of drones until they finally get enough then they spend those same resources on workers. Basically stealing a frame of drones costs them a frame of workers.

> Won't the varroa be able to get into the drone cells?

Of course.

> What do you do about this?

Nothing. I saw one Varroa in a uncapped drone pupa this year going through over 100 hives and over 100 mating nucs and looking at lost of drone cells that get broken open between the boxes.

>Judging by your website I bet you get a lot of questions. I'd be happy with a link if you have already answered this a few dozen times.

I should do one on that subject as the question does seem to come up a lot.

I simply have not had Varroa issues at all since regressing. I'm sure some of this could be how many large cell hives around you are crashing from Varroa.


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

*Re: 4.9 small foundation - and in this corner...*

odfrank & beemandan - Was seriously considering moving to sc in the spring, now not so sure. Are either or both of you running foundationless frames? I guess my questions are: If you're running sc frames now without the published results, are you going to move to lc frames or go foundationless? Other than the yield difference between sc & lc, are their any other down-sides to sc?

The published reports on ps dusting for varroa is inconclusive, but I am hesitant to use other methods. Do hives eventually just crash and burn, or is there some hope that they can work through this pest over time?

Atlanta newbeek


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Other than the yield difference between sc & lc, are their any other down-sides to sc?

The studies I've seen say the sc are more productive. I see no noticeable difference.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

hoodswoods, I’ll tell you what I always tell new beekeepers. Start with conventional foundation. After you have some experience, then experiment with alternatives. I recommend that you seek small, local, reputable queen breeders. Or, try one of the Russian breeders. Carl Webb is in GA and Ray Revis is nearby in NC. Although some Beesource folks have had chalkbrood problems with them, you might consider Dann Purvis queens. Fatbeeman is highly regarded by some. Whether you intend to treat for varroa or not, the local folks are likely to offer a better set of adapted genetics than the big volume producers.

If you opt not to treat, so be it. In the early days of varroa it was said that the average colony of bees would collapse after a couple of seasons. I believe that our untreated survival rates are better today. If you choose not to treat, plan to do early spring splits from your surviving hives to replace your losses.

I started 10 hives in 2008 and 10 hives in 2009 with starter strips. It wasn’t a scientific study, just a personal experiment. Every one produced, what I consider, excessive drone comb. Lots of folks will tell you that the bees know best. In the prevarroa days, that may have been so. We’ve introduced an exotic parasite, one that our bees haven’t evolved with. We know that varroa greatly prefer drone brood and reproduce MUCH more successfully in it. I really believe that going foundationless gives varroa an extra edge. I would discourage you from going foundationless in your first season.

Although many beekeepers here seem to have had no problems going to small cell, I’ll tell you that isn’t always the case. Several years ago I began ‘regressing’ thirty hives. A number of mine never got the hang of 4.9…ever.... and a couple couldn’t get 5.1. Some that were able to draw out 4.9 respectably had obvious brood stress issues. Again, for those who had no problems…more power to you….but be assured that your experience isn’t always the case.
Best of luck to you.


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## longrangedog (Jun 24, 2007)

Anyone considering small cell should be sure to read Jennifer Berry's SMALL CELL FOUNDATION AND VARROA MITES pg 49 BEE CULTURE Nov. 2009. Make a decision based on facts derived from formal studies using scientific method. Other previous research by Ms. Berry produced similar results.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>>with starter strips. It wasn’t a scientific study, just a personal experiment. Every one produced, what I consider, excessive drone comb.>>

All worker comb is maybe the main reason for the success of modern beekeeping, hives that produce huge crops of honey and have huge populations of workers for pollination. The foundationless and natural comb crowd might be mighty "green" and "organic", but in doing so they have backed up over 150 years in beekeeping technology. Not that I hold it against them, I think that top bar beekeeping is fine and good. It is just not the way to obtain maximum production and results. 

Milk farmers do not have a lot of bulls hooked up to their milking machines. Egg farmers do not try to obtain 10% roosters.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

And Clarance Collison's research says you'll end up with the same number of drones no matter what you do...


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## mattgang (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm starting to think that "technology" is the term that needs quotes around it.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Success of 'modern beekeeping'? Careful or honey production will go the way of milk production. Hormone infected milk, less consumption, more production, and unsustainable cheap prices. Now across the nation beeks losses have averaged about 30% over the past 5 years. Oh, yeah, welcome to modern beekeeping. 

Our agriculture has become corporate destroying the family farm and family life generally in America while producing an inferior product. This is what is unsustainable. Now 'modern beekeeping' gives us a product infected with miticides, now that's real progress:scratch:. Wonder how long it will be before people quit consumption of honey because it is not healthy anymore? Never ceases to amaze me that those of us who try to produce a clean product get condemned by those who are destroying the reputation of the product being produced.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

DRUR said:


> Never ceases to amaze me that those of us who try to produce a clean product get condemned by those who are destroying the reputation of the product being produced


I think you'd be hard pressed to find anywhere in this thread where anyone got condemned.There are any number of us trying to produce a clean product. My only point is that I don't believe that 4.9 cells make that product any cleaner and can, in many cases, in my opinion, create stress in the bee colony. I don't think its a good recommendation for beginning beekeepers. I guess I'd have to say that it always amazes me that when you disagree with some people they take it as condemnation. Its only a matter of an 'adult' difference of opinion.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

beemandan said:


> My only point is that I don't believe that 4.9 cells make that product any cleaner and can, in many cases, in my opinion, create stress in the bee colony.


Dan, I don't disagree with you. Initially I think regression does stress the bees. But this is not the point of my statement.



beemandan said:


> I don't think its a good recommendation for beginning beekeepers.QUOTE]
> 
> Dan, I have to disagree with you here. When I first began beekeeping during the late 70s, I read, much before getting started and when I did get started I experimented with many different things, not always successfully, but I learned much. When you have little invested it is the time to experiment with new things.
> 
> ...


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

DRUR said:


> a brain fart somewhere between what is stated and what the brain assimilates.


I think we agree on this. I believe that we might disagree on who it applies to.



DRUR said:


> Never ceases to amaze me that those of us who try to produce a clean product get condemned by those who are destroying the reputation of the product being produced


I'll ask again. Where in this thread did you believe that anyone was condemning those of 'you' who are trying to produce a clean product? 

You don't need to reply. I'm done with this exchange.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

> You don't need to reply. I'm done with this exchange.


Thanks Dan


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Ed, my call is AC4PP. I'm not active these days though....waaaayyyy too much other stuff.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

I have essentially cut this post upon reconsideration of my statements and wish to apologize to beemandan for my response. My first inclination was not to respond, and I should have taken that inclination. Instead I attempted to support a statement which should have just been dropped. Sorry for the turmoil this has caused.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

While Dan and I have had different experiences with SC, I didn't find his post to be out of line, insulting or "bad" information. He chose his words carefully knowing there has been much heated exchange over SC in the past, and I see no need to make an issue out of what has been said. I think a little too much inferring is taking place.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>"oddfrank was promoting the virtues of droneless colonies"

I did not say this. Show me in the thread where I did. I promoted all worker foundation. Even with all worker foundation my hives have a lot of drones, which is fine with me. I would love to have natural, uncontaminated, foundation less combs, but in my experience this will give a massive amount of drones, like poorly drawn SC does.

DRUR is putting words into the mouths of those of us who have only said "small cell is not working for us". Why are you feeling so threatened by our experiences? 
I too would like to believe that SC is the silver bullet. So far it has not been for me.

> that YOU, and many others here are in opposition to those of us who want to try small cell

I am not in opposition to anyone trying. I have said before about techniques that I feel are bent for failure: you are welcome to fail, as that is less competition for me.


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## kwest (May 16, 2009)

i am curious what everyone thinks about not only small cell but small cell being used in conjunction with doing not treatments and also leaving more stores of honey and not feeding sugar water etc. i believe that from what i have read that small cell would not be enough. i have chosen to go (foundationless)small cell with no treatments, and no feeding sugar water(when i get to a point when i get stong enough colonies). I am also planning on buying some surviver queens and possibly some russian strains. from what i have read the successfull small cell beeks are doing all this.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I have used SC comb for many years now. I don't put anything in the hive, I don't feed and I leave enough stores on the hive that they have their own honey for winter and spring use. I had to take a break from the bees for a few years. Last summer I picked up a nuc from a local beekeeper that does the standard treatment routine. These were not "adapted" bees. Dennis Murrell, in some of his experiments, put all kinds of bees on SC and didn't see any difference. I will build back up from these bees.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

beemandan said:


> I'll ask again. Where in this thread did you believe that anyone was condemning those of 'you' who are trying to produce a clean product?


I was out of line in making the statement and apologize as it should not have been made. It added nothing to the post or the thread. 

What is troubling is that both of us are probably in agreement with our lifestyles as they seem to be quite similar, but I often find myself disagreeing when there is nothing to be in disagreement about. I will try to ensure that the conflict in our personality does not affect the degree of the differences in our positions I take in the future, and certainly hope that I don't make mistake of having the personality clash drive my response. I would have sent a pm, but since the post was made public I decided the apology should be also. I really should not even be posting at this time as my time restrictions has been very limiting. Barry, thanks for serving as my conscience, I needed that.

Humble apology
Danny Unger


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

DRUR, I too find myself overreacting and responding on this board. I would like to apologize as well for my contribution to the tone this dialog took.
Regard to all
Dan Harris


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

This past dialog reminds me of our common passion. An insect that stings...who'd have ever thought? As with most things passionate (religion and politics come to mind) we approach these things, each in his/her individual way. We set diverse courses toward a common goal. The result is that we find a number of different methods to achieve those and since we’re passionate we invest our ego in those methods. Then we wonder why the other guy doesn’t see it our way, or as clearly as we do. It’s human nature.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

mattgang said:


> Has anyone successfully started out with the small foundation? Should I just buy all small foundation from the beginning?
> 
> Thanks,
> Matt


Matt,
I think that you may very well be successful with starting your bees on small-cell foundation, though you might have a varying amount of regression trouble. I did not notice any regression trouble with my own bees, but I transitioned mine, gradually to small-cell over the course of an entire season.

When I first learned about the different cell size foundations being used contemporaneously, I was already using mostly Pierco medium frames (5.35mm), I wasn't treating and I wasn't having any mite problems and still don't, but I thought that having smaller celled honeycomb and possibly smaller bees, sounded interesting. So I visited my local Bee Supply store and picked up some small-cell 4.9mm foundation some of beeswax and some were plastic 4.9mm foundation. I immediately began inserting the small-cell foundation into my hives and rarely had any drawn as anything but small-cell honeycombs.

Presently, about half my combs are on Mann Lake PF120 frames (4.9mm) and the other half are foundationless frames.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Joseph Clemens said:


> I was already using mostly Pierco medium frames (5.35mm), I wasn't treating and I wasn't having any mite problems and still don't,


Which does beg the question, what do you believe that the 4.9 cell size does for you?


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

When you guys do cut outs of long established feral hives, what is the cell size?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

brac said:


> When you guys do cut outs of long established feral hives, what is the cell size?


It depends on who you ask. I know that as part of Jennifer Berry's original small cell study she collected brood comb from about 150 cutouts. She measured the cell sizes of each. If my memory serves me, less than 2% were smaller than 5.0...on the other hand less than 2% were larger than 5.3
There will surely be some folks who will have much different results....this has come up in the past.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Which does beg the question, what do you believe that the 4.9 cell size does for you?


I believe that 4.9mm cell-size provides honeycombs with more cells in the same area (I use almost entirely medium depth frames and mostly 8-frame supers) and that those cells are smaller. I don't really need or expect them to control mites -- though I sometimes see mites on brood and phoretic mites on bees I've only seen two cases of PMS in the almost two decades that I've been aware of _Varroa_ mites, and they were very mild cases that recovered without intervention.

I enjoy variety. I keep bees almost entirely for the joy of watching them do what they do. Foundationless combs that fill the frames are nearly always irregular, consisting of many cell sizes and lots of transition cells, comb built on PF120's are usually much more regular, and I even have a few of the green Pierco drone frames (cut down to medium depth), to help raise the drones I want, where I want them, but not as the mite IPM they were developed for.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Regarding brac's question, the cutouts I've done, and the comb I've received from other members when I was measuring cells, have had sections/combs of small cells mixed in with cells of much larger size. The pattern I've found is that the core of the broodnest has the smallest cell size and the size increases as you get further away from core with honey storage size up in the 7 mm range.


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## mattgang (Sep 11, 2009)

There certainly are a lot of choices to figure out in the beekeeping world. I certainly don't have everything figured out yet, but I have figured out that going the traditional route will cost a lot. For two colonies I'd have to spend over 600 bucks before I even got the bees, and that includes a few hours of driving to avoid crazy shipping charges. That's one reason I wanted to know about starting with the 4.9. Why buy all the bigger stuff if I'll eventually want sc? Then I read about foundationless. Why buy sc with tainted wax if I'll eventually want no foundation? That led me to read about top bar hives. Why buy any of this stuff if I can make some sweet looking hives in my basement for very cheap? People say to start off traditionally and then move to sc, or top bar, but why? I don't know how to keep bees yet, I'd much rather learn on the system that I want to end up. Worst case with the top bar hives, my bees die and I still have my 600 bucks. Worst case with the traditional route, my bees die, my wallet is empty, and my basement is full of bee gear that people would be wary of buying used.


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

Matt - you hung in there. I left the bar when I heard someone shouting 'gimme three steps mister'.

Even in insect life, best friends will throw punches when there are girls involved - such a thing happened a few months ago when genetics and preventive treatment were involved.

I made my investment (ignorantly, perhaps) in LC because, unlike you, I hadn't spent the up-front time doing any homework. If you got any concrete solutions to your questions, I would like you to share them with me, but as far as I can tell, the jury is out across the board.

All I know is that on my 1st year LC Itals, started from 5-frame nuc, I have SHB's, varroa and wing deformity seemingly comming out my ears (this was supposed to happen next year). I'm going to do whatever I need to try and save them and see what happens. I only like a little bit of honey on bisquits anyway.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Matt -

As one of the organizers for our local bee school I understand your dilemma. What we try in the school is to teach basic skills using standard equipment with the goal of having our students successfully keep bees. The support system that we are able to offer students is mostly traditional. We do talk about IPM but also talk about the knowledge needed to make IPM work. Experience with new beeks has shown me that not many are counting mites by any method. For those folks we recommend that they treat using a Thymol based product or an Organic Acid.

For beeks who live in an areas known to have AFB issues, prophylactic treatments are recommended. Me - I don't treat for AFB and am prepared to burn my hives if AFB should turn up. I don't think the majority of new beeks are ready to understand the issue fully and most certainly wouldn't recognize AFB early on. The goal of the class is to get people through the first year so that they have some experience and have the opportunity to gain the knowledge to think through issues themselves.

SC, Natural Cell, etc., are all ideas that require extra knowledge and experience to successfully implement. Even when done "correctly" the results may not be what was expected - And *important point here* the beek trying the technique assumes greater personal responsibility over the results and needs to make allowances for a local support system. I'm not convinced that encouraging a new beek to start out on 4.9 foundation makes sense.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Interesting. I have gained what experience I do have on Langstroth hives and going 'traditional' treatment, etc.. all the way. Again, these were not my hives, but someone who I used to help with his.

having said that, I am always interested to see people who insist on 'tradition' over experimentation, when the 'tradition' isn't much more than an extended period of experimentation in itself. simply such a long period that everyone has accepted it as 'the way to do it".

Which leads to the discussions of " We been doing it this way for 50 years..." as a justification or position of fact.

There is absolutely nothing we humans know that is written in stone. our scientists are finding information that turns the previous "knowledge" on it's head all the time. What we "know 50 years ago, is found today to be wrong. and so on and so on.

I would dare to say to let the new person start out how they choose. Just because everyone else does it, doesn't mean he or she must do so as well. Isn't that what our mothers taught us about peer pressure?

After having spent the time I did spend with the 'traditional' methods, I have begun my own apiary adventure starting with something different. top Bar hives, both horizontal and vertical. this apiaries prime interest isn't producing honey or pollination, although neither is being ignored altogether.

My new hives are to be foundationless and natural. The methodology is facilitation. Rather, trying to be as aware of bee behavior as much as possible and working my practices into the way the bees "naturally" conduct their business.

I have no doubt there are many who will tell me that 'tradition' dictates that I am doing it "wrong", however, I will proceed anyway. Should I find evidence that I am hurting the bees more than helping them, I will make what changes or modifications to remedy that as possible.

I advise anyone wanting to walk a non-traditional path to learn as much as they can about bees themselves and follow what they beleive will work to the benefit of the bees and themselves. surely no worse can happen that isn't occurring already "traditionally".

Big Bear


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Hi Big Bear,

Just to clarify, I'm all for experimentation if you have a personal knowledge base or local support system to do it intelligently. In our classes we are more concerned with teaching people to recognize the difference between good and poor brood patterns than about alternative ways of doing things. We only have 5 classes to try to get people up to speed. There simply isn't time to go into some of the newer methods, especially those with only anecdotal evidence of success.

We tell people what standard equipment is but after that they are free to get what they want. It is more of a case that we can't be their support system if they go off in an unusual direction.

That said - it sounds like you have the personal knowledge & curiosity to make a go of your top bar hives. And with bee source you have access to a support community. It sounds like a good combination to me. Best wishes.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Thank you. I'm never one to even begin to think I "know it all" or try not to, but by bee-ing around so many other bee-interested folks as on this and other forums and places I associate, I am hopping to at least not muck things up too badly.

Learning never stops, I just don't want to see people feel as though they can't investigate alternatives as long as they take care to learn as much as they can going in.

Big Bear


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