# Drawn Foundation



## BruinnieBear (Jun 30, 2009)

Maybe this is a super-stupid question. If nothing else, it should give the foundationless folks a chuckle.

Why don't they mold fully drawn foundation?

I work around moldmakers who routinely build molds for investment cast, lost wax castings. The wax presses use a parafin base wax, but with adequate chilling or a stiffenning agent for quick curing, I see no reason why these presses couldn't use pure beeswax to produce drawn comb.

One of the most frustrating things in beginning beeking is not having drawn comb, and the time lag to get up and running without it. Sure, it wouldn't bee as easy to assemble as standard foundation, but even if it was partially drawn, I think it would be an awesome timesaver. Not to mention, processing temperatures would guaranty disease free material.

The folks that are settin' on skads of it probably think I'm a crackpot, but wouldn't you think even they would have a use for it in replacing old stock?

Just wonderin'

BB


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Of course you are right, the drawing of comb is a very beehive resource intensive operation. There is drawn plastic comb you can get but I've not heard of anywhere to purchase drawn wax comb. I'm thinking the expense of manufacturing it would make it pretty well cost prohibitive, maybe.


----------



## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

Packaging, storing and shipping are also issues.

Drawn wax foundation can be rather fragile. It's definitely sensitive to crushing and heat/cold. And it's way bulkier than undrawn sheets of foundation. Pests would also be an issue during storage, both on the end of the supplier and of the consumer.


----------



## BruinnieBear (Jun 30, 2009)

RayMarler said:


> I'm thinking the expense of manufacturing it would make it pretty well cost prohibitive, maybe.


Not so much. As with anything manufactured, tools are amortized over a long production run. With Pierco or plasticell the technology is already proven, especially with the fully integrated frames.

My biggest gripe is how unattractive the plastic is without natural wax on it. Wouldn't even an 1/8 or 1/4" of natural wax on a plastic foundation solve that problem? The plasticell could be used as an insert in the mold, or perhaps, a multi-shot press could take care of both. Or would the bees just strip it for use elsewhere?

BigDaddyDS noted fragility, sensitivity and pest issues, all of which, are packaging and transportation issues. I like the concept of plastic from the standpoint of ridgidity (stability), longevity, and long-term investment economy. There's no question that some beeks would abhor anything unnatural in their hives, but the technology is available to make all of these things possible to improve hive mechanics.imo

BB


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They do, out of plastic. Honey Super Cell and Permacomb are fully drawn plastic comb.


----------



## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

I have used both Permacell and SHC. Bees take to the Permacell pretty fast in supers. HSC is only made for brood boxes and is small cell. Have only gotten 1 frame of brood on a HSC frame. They will clean them and put some honey and pollen in the but for the most part they just walk over them. 

The HSC might work great in Small Cell Bee Brood boxes. My problem with using PermaCell in the supers is that most of the times the bees don't draw the comb out past the plastic edge of the comb. THis means you can't use a capping blade, you must use a scratcher which is more labor intensive.


----------



## BruinnieBear (Jun 30, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> They do, out of plastic. Honey Super Cell and Permacomb are fully drawn plastic comb.


I'm not at all surprised, considering the state of the trade. In my humble experience, though, it seems that you need a strong flow to have them build on (in) it, and much prefer the natural wax foundation even when their taking syrup. I tried adding a built up layer (< 1/32") by rolling on, and even took broken, honey-filled burr comb rubbed into the plastic to try to tempt them.
Results are always the same (moreso in honey supers); they strip it and use it elsewhere.

I'm convinced that the material out-gases something the bees don't care for,and in the absence of a "strong need" for space, they much prefer the natural foundation. I wonder if there's a threshold for thickness that is needed to mask this supposed effect?

BB


----------



## Truchaos (Jun 30, 2008)

I bought a big box of Honey SuperCell drawn frames. My bees don't seem to like it. As someone already said, they walk right over it. So the box has been sitting in the basement for years. I've tried various methods for getting the plastic smell off but apparently was unsuccessful in my attemps. 

I did find a use for it though. During the winter, I make fondant and push it down into the cells with a spatula. The HSC seems to hold a lot of fondant and the bees do go into the cells to remove it.


----------



## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

I haven't had a problem the bees stripping the wax I roll on the frames. In fact, they will from time to time add a little bit more but still don't want to use it.

When using permacomb, I have had success with them storing honey but as I stated earlier they don't seem to draw it out further. But looking further, they do on occasion draw the permacomb out some more. I believe that if I used 9-frame hangers in the box they would draw it out further. Will try that next year.

Wax moths can still be a problem with plastic comb. I had some HSC in some boxes that started dying out. These frames had some extra wax rolled on them, and contained a little pollen and honey. Wax moth larva took them over. Made a webbed mess in places and they used the comb cells to pupate. I hit the SHC on the side of something hard and you should have seen the amount of larva in different stages of growth fall out. Even some of the pupating larva came out on the ground. They didn't last long though. Came back later and they had disappeared. Figured that the birds got them.


----------



## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Why don't they mold fully drawn foundation?

*They do!
*I had the pleasure of meeting the inventer of PERMACOMB three years ago at his property in Bardsdale California and I heard of him back in the 70's.
He offered a friend mine and I a distributorship. But, we politely declined.
I have about 230 of his mini snap together plastic combs that can be used in queen production. 
I think that he should have persued the queen mating frames
Regards,
Ernie


----------



## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Pre-plastic era.

I saw an all aluminum full depth frame that was hanging on the wall of a storage shed in Fillmore Calif. It was about 1/2 the depth of a drawn out comb.
Ernie


----------



## BruinnieBear (Jun 30, 2009)

Now that's investment casting at it's finest! I'd love to have the wax mold for that puppy! Only with beeswax in the extruder!

Regards back, Ernie

BB


----------

