# Starting with foundationless frames



## Fuzzy

"Can I just put the frames (with starter strips) in the hive box and 
pour the package of bees into it and put a feeder in or on top of the 
new hive and be done with the installation?"

Yes... But may I suggest that you coat the starter strips with bees wax.

Also, You may want to re-think about foundation for your honey boxes. It is somewhat problematic to use natural comb in an extractor to remove honey. It is not impossible but you will cause severe damage to a large percentage of the frames. 
In the brood chambers you will rarely extract honey from them so it is not a big problem.


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## stoffel64

"Yes... But may I suggest that you coat the starter strips with bees wax."

Ohh, yes, read about that. I put that on my to do list.

To harvest honey I actually want to use the "crush and strain" method.
I don't want to buy an extractor yet. So far I think I should be fine.

Thanks
Stefan


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## hipifreq

I too am starting in the Spring, and would like to try going foundationless. My intention was to put my bees into a deep with one frame of foundation in the middle, and the rest with wax-coated starter strips. I'll mark the one frame and slowly shift it to the side and remove later in the summer.

I think I'll play the rest by ear, and have a few sheets of deep and medium foundation waiting in the wings just in case. If all goes well, then the extra foundation can just get rolled into candles! :thumbsup: My main objective is to let the bees tell me what's working, stay on my toes, and TRY to be ready for whatever they're asking for.

As for spinning foundationless frames, I've definitely heard from some that it works very well. Bush bees and the Backwards Beekeepers are proponents. While I think I'll skip it and risk having all that "ruined" wax to make into candles, some use monofilament or wire in foundationless frames. The bees apparently work it into the wax.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#howdoyougofoundationless
http://beehuman.blogspot.com/


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## stoffel64

I actually just want to use medium boxes, so that I can interchange frames easily.

Stefan


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## Michael Bush

>Can I just put the frames (with starter strips) in the hive box and
pour the package of bees into it and put a feeder in or on top of the
new hive and be done with the installation?

Yes. I prefer wood strips as they are more permanent.

>Yes... But may I suggest that you coat the starter strips with bees wax.

I wouldn't. The wax sometimes falls off, accomplishes nothing in the realm of convincing the bees of anything and is attached less well than the bees will attach it.

>Also, You may want to re-think about foundation for your honey boxes. It is somewhat problematic to use natural comb in an extractor to remove honey.

Actually it's not. They extract just fine. I do it all the time.

>I too am starting in the Spring, and would like to try going foundationless. My intention was to put my bees into a deep with one frame of foundation in the middle, and the rest with wax-coated starter strips. I'll mark the one frame and slowly shift it to the side and remove later in the summer.

You really don't need the frame of foundation. Just keep an eye on them that first week and make sure they are building in the frames and straighten them out if they are not. But they probably will if you have a comb guide.


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## timbale

I have been going back and forth between starting with a Lang or a Warre. After reading, (or maybe over-reading), I am leaning towards starting with a foundation-less Lang so I can still keep it more "organic" and get some hands-on experience. 
I am still intrigued with the Warre and I would like to add one in a year or two, if all goes well.
Hmmm, maybe I should start with one of each!


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## stoffel64

Well, I read about the Warre Hive too but I did not like the idea to always lift a stack of hives up to add a new one. I do not have any experience but it looks much easier to 
add a Langstroth hive box at the top instead of adding it at the bottom. 
I want to use just mediums in standard 10 frame Langstroth boxes. No deeps and no
shallows. 
Michael Bush recommends that on his really great web page (actually he says that he use 8 frame boxes instead of 10 frame boxes).


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## Bee Bliss

We started a hive this year with 10 frame mediums, foundationless. We used wooden comb guides. No problems! The bees did it perfectly. We did not add any beeswax to the guides. They know what they are doing. It also saved us money not buying foundation. Just be sure to feed them while they are building comb.

Edit: Used wooden comb guides actually. Some were the wedge pieces turned sideways and some were "L" shaped pieces of "trim" that were easier to nail or staple in than the wedges. We also had made sure the hive was level side to side as Riley mentions.


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## Riley

The one thing I would add is make sure your hive is level side-to-side. Bees will build foundation exactly vertically and if your frames lean the comb will not follow the frames to the bottom.


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## Lauren

I started out fresh this year and I would definitely suggest starting with more than one hive. I am working on convincing my girls to go foundationless and move into the medium boxes.

More than one hive would have given me so many more answers and options! Good Luck!


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## David LaFerney

They will absolutely build foundationless just fine without waxing the starter strips. Really they will. I've tried every kind of starter imaginable, and they all work fine - use the one that is simplest for you.

If you do start out with a package in a completely empty foundationless hive, not only should you keep an eye on them that first week, you need to be prepared to straighten comb mercilessly (every day) until they get a few frames well started. You won't *want* to mess with it because it so soft and white and perfect - and when you straighten it you mash and disfigure it. 

It might hurt your feelings, but do it anyway. Aim to keep the center wall of the comb aligned with the center of the frame. They will fix whatever damage you do almost immediately. If you let them get started crooked you will be dealing with it for a* long* time.


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## Joseph Clemens

Terminology: Starter strips are small strips of beeswax/plastic foundation, or comb. Comb guides are what are used to guide the bees to start and align their combs inside the boundaries of the frames. Comb guides can be composed partially or entirely of starter strips, but comb guides are not necessarily starter strips, comb guides are usually a narrower raised edge of wood on wooden frames, often popsicle sticks glued into the groove of grooved wooden top bars, and sometimes the wedge (fastened in sideways), of wedge top bars -- these wooden comb guides are sometimes coated with a layer of beeswax. Calling comb guides, "starter strips" could possibly lead to confusion among newcomers to this topic.

When playing around with different configurations of foundationless frames, I have sometimes fastened a beeswax foundation starter strip to my wooden comb guides formed by fastening the frame wedges in sideways.

Here is an image illustrating a typical "comb guide" for use in a top bar hive --> 





 Even if it were to be coated with beeswax it would not be a "starter strip", starter strips, in my glossary must include the basic form of a honeycomb, but not be a complete foundation (filling the entire frame).


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## hipifreq

Definitely a difference in terminology here... So I think I see it this way:

Foundation: An entire sheet of embossed wax (or plastic) that fills the entire frame space.

Starter Strip: A narrow strip of embossed wax foundation attached to the top bar that only fills a small portion at the top of the frame space.

Comb Guide: A physical feature of the frame (e.g. a paint stick in the groove, reverse wedge, etc) with or without beeswax coating.

All are used to "help" bees build out their comb. OK, I can work with those definitions if everyone else can... 

So I think what both David and Joseph said is that they use Comb Guides without any beeswax on them. Just be ready to check daily to correct comb orientation should they build sideways.

I'm willing to take on that work in order to have comb that I know the story of.


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## kbenz

I use Popsicle sticks(no wax) 5 hives and they all do fine with it


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## Countryboy

I've started packages in hives with a couple frames of drawn combs and the rest foundationless. I used a wedge top frame with the wedge turned 90 degrees. I very rarely ever had any combs get messed up.

If you start a package out on foundationless, FEED them as much as possible until they get the combs drawn. Do NOT think that a Boardman feeder is sufficient to use to feed a package on foundation. Use a frame feeder, or a hivetop feeder. Feed, feed, feed.


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## stoffel64

Hi All,

Thanks for this great information. You answered my question regarding 
foundation less really well and it makes my life a little easier.
I just have to put the comb guide / starter strip into the frame.

When I put the bees into the hive I just have to keep an eye on these 
bee, so that the create their comb nicely in the frame.

I plan to build simple miller feeders (hive top feeders) so that the bees 
stay well feed after I have put them into the new hive.
Our winters here in Pacifica CA are mild (only a few days with a very light
frost) and a hive top feeder should be fine because the day time temperature
usually goes over 50F.

Thanks again
Stefan


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## Omie

stoffel64 said:


> When I put the bees into the hive I just have to keep an eye on these
> bee, so that the create their comb nicely in the frame.


Yes, keep your eye on them at first, every few days. My first foundationless super with popsicle stick guides, and a nicely leveled hive....
After a while I found them starting to build this 'sculpture' which was attached to two frames and they were really getting started on it:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9fPBEJTqGzw/TJLHH7xs10I/AAAAAAAADCk/wQ60zh95LMg/s1600/Sept-wild-comb-2.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9fPBEJTqGzw/TJLHHVZxQNI/AAAAAAAADCc/xuFumfR5wL4/s1600/Sept-wild-comb-3.jpg
I cut it out right away, and then they began to build nice straight combs instead.
If I hadn't of found that 'krazy komb' early, the whole box would have been filled with a solid mass and that would have been way messier to correct.


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## hipifreq

Well thanks for asking the question stoffel64. I had been thinking the same thing, and now we both have our questions answered.

Omie: Crazy sculpture there!  Quite lovely!


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## bigeddie

Michael Bush said:


> >Can I just put the frames (with starter strips) in the hive box and
> pour the package of bees into it and put a feeder in or on top of the
> new hive and be done with the installation?
> 
> Yes. I prefer wood strips as they are more permanent.
> 
> >Yes... But may I suggest that you coat the starter strips with bees wax.
> 
> I wouldn't. The wax sometimes falls off, accomplishes nothing in the realm of convincing the bees of anything and is attached less well than the bees will attach it.
> 
> >Also, You may want to re-think about foundation for your honey boxes. It is somewhat problematic to use natural comb in an extractor to remove honey.
> 
> Actually it's not. They extract just fine. I do it all the time.
> 
> >I too am starting in the Spring, and would like to try going foundationless. My intention was to put my bees into a deep with one frame of foundation in the middle, and the rest with wax-coated starter strips. I'll mark the one frame and slowly shift it to the side and remove later in the summer.
> 
> You really don't need the frame of foundation. Just keep an eye on them that first week and make sure they are building in the frames and straighten them out if they are not. But they probably will if you have a comb guide.



I agree 100% with Michael Bush on the above. Very few problems.


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## NormInGeorgia

I got started with 2 packages of bees in very late Spring this year. 

Some things I learned that have mostly already been mentioned in this thread or other threads....

I put 2 medium frames of wired wax (no hooks) in the middle of each brood box thinking that would act as a "guide" for the bees when they started building on the other 6 frames which were comb guide frames from Walter Kelley. In retrospect, I could have just used all 8 comb guide frames and kept a close eye on them for the first few weeks to correct any errant comb building.

I spent time and effort "painting" beeswax on the comb guide triangles of the top bars. This was completely unnecessary. The bees did not seem to care about it.

I think the biggest mistake I made was not realizing that I needed to push all the frame together in the center of the box so they make a single unit with proper beespace maintained between frames at all times. I overlooked this detail and it contributed to frames having lopsided combs thicker on one side than the other and some having a "double" row of comb hanging down from the same top bar. It was not until about a week ago that I figured out my mistake and that I could have prevented it by pushing those frames together from the beginning instead of thinking the frames had to be equally spread out from one side of the box to the other. (I was told recently that 8-frame boxes don't all have the same width dimension either.) When I get packages in the future, I will keep the frames pushed together and see how that works out instead.


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## the doc

i used small strips of wax covered dadant foundation that i got for free. The bees readily draw it out and fairly fast

one warning: I use 10 frame mediums and there is that little extra space in between the frames. If you dont consistantly keep the spacing, the bees seem to get a little confused towards the bottom as there will be to much bee space. They then overlap comb on the same frame to compensate. I had some trouble then pulling these frames without risking rolling some bees


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## SamG347

I will give you a non-biased opinion coming from someone who has kept both..Foundationless...Reg Foundation...and Topbar hives.

1. I will never do foundationless in a langstroth again. If your managing one hive I would say go for it. But if you do multiple hives it becomes more of a pain than anything. 

2. Rarely will the bees follow the guidelines you set and work the frames evenly. I had bees building comes to the left...right...cross comb..etc. My hives are level.

3. I noticed no difference in behavior them working foundationless frames versus foundation. I actually think in some cases hives were hotter because the foundationless comb being so out of wack and me breaking off chunks just trying to pull out a frame. 


I did enjoy my topbar hives but even they have management issues. The simplest style and method I have found to work great for me and the bees is just a regular lang setup with foundation. I really like black foundation which is something I just tryed this year. 

Do whatever you want too...but in the long run I can say the tried and true method of a Langstroth hive with foundation pulls through in my opinion.
:thumbsup:


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## Joseph Clemens

If I didn't have many colonies and many complete combs, in frames, if I were just beginning my beekeeping, and if I were starting with swarms or packages, rather than cut-outs, I'd start them in supers with frames of full sheets of 100% beeswax foundation with horizontal wires, then, during the flow, I would add additional foundationless frames between frames of completed comb.

Since I already have many colonies and many complete combs, I simply use the combs I already have to help the bees to keep to the comb guides provided in each foundationless frame. 

As it is, I see nothing at all like what SamG347 sees.


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## David LaFerney

I'm just going to mention this because no one else has and it could be useful for someone who is starting out foundationless with no drawn comb.

If you put an empty frame between two nice straight frames they will usually draw it out almost perfectly - with one exception - if one of the 
guide frames is uncapped nectar they might just draw it out really thick, but usually not with either brood or capped honey. The side of the hive body or a follower board will also help force them to draw adjoining frames nice and straight.

So, once they start drawing comb on 3-4 frames (usually right in the middle of the box) move empties all to one side and push the comb over right against the side, and put a follower board on the other side of the frames they are working.

Keep the rest of the box full of empties just in case, but they will tend to not work on the off side of the follower. As they build out comb just move empties into the nest between the outside wall and a mostly (or fully) drawn frame of either brood or capped honey.

If you pay attention you can get them to draw almost perfect foundationless frames like this - during a good flow.

Yes, this is more manipulation than is probably ideal, but it is better than having to mash and mangle crooked comb to try to get it so you can work with it, and once you have a box full of nice straight comb to work with it will get a lot easier.


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## Countryboy

I found that if I trim my foundationless frames to 1 1/4 wide, the bees draw out the combs almost perfectly. I would say they messed up 3% or 4% of the frames I have done when I put almost a whole box of foundationless frames on, and the combs they did mess up were outer combs when they began curving the ends of the combs. I currently have 300-ish foundationless deep frames in service in 40 some hives.

I have not installed the first sheet of wax foundation into a frame. (I have purchased equipment with frames that had wax foundation, but I have never installed any wax in frames.) All new frames I put into service are foundationless or one piece plastic frames.


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## lax2dad

Stefan,
Two years gone by. How did you make out starting out foundationless?


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## Ross

SamG347 said:


> I will give you a non-biased opinion coming from someone who has kept both..Foundationless...Reg Foundation...and Topbar hives.
> 
> 1. I will never do foundationless in a langstroth again. If your managing one hive I would say go for it. But if you do multiple hives it becomes more of a pain than anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Rarely will the bees follow the guidelines you set and work the frames evenly. I had bees building comes to the left...right...cross comb..etc. My hives are level.


That's not my experience nor the majority of people that try it. I have 10 years of foundationless experience in excess of 50 hives. Before that I used foundation. Life is much easier doing foundationless. Seldom do I have to correct a comb and when I do it takes seconds. I use no treatments and the bees are happy and healthy. 



SamG347 said:


> 3. I noticed no difference in behavior them working foundationless frames versus foundation. I actually think in some cases hives were hotter because the foundationless comb being so out of wack and me breaking off chunks just trying to pull out a frame.


Again, never seen or heard of a hive hotter because of foundationless. There is no reason for chunks of comb to be breaking off just because of foundationless. 



SamG347 said:


> I did enjoy my topbar hives but even they have management issues. The simplest style and method I have found to work great for me and the bees is just a regular lang setup with foundation. I really like black foundation which is something I just tryed this year.
> 
> Do whatever you want too...but in the long run I can say the tried and true method of a Langstroth hive with foundation pulls through in my opinion.
> :thumbsup:


Glad you found the method that works for you.


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## hipifreq

I've been running foundationless on home-made frames in a Langstroth hive. All standard dimensions except I make the frame tops out of 5/4 cedar decking and cut a 45 degree bevel in each side of the bottom of it to give them more surface area to attach comb too. All medium Langs. Here's a post with photos of my first few frames:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?250519-My-first-go-at-making-foundationless-frames

Started two packages two years ago, and both hives are still thriving. I had to requeen one of them the first summer, but they've both survived two winters here in the cold rain of the Pacific Northwest. Haven't had any major issues of comb alingment. The only thing worth mentioning is that both hives curved the combs slightly at the ends. All it took was a gentle push to line it up again and everything was fine. I've gotten about 4 gallons of honey off the two hives so far.

I'd have to say that stories of horrible experiences with foundationless Langs have been the exception. A few others at my local bee club have tried it, and have had similar experiences to mine. Only one had a major issue, and he takes responsibility for neglecting the hive for too long.


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## gmcharlie

A cpl thoughts, If your going foundationless in a lang, use wires. the bees will build around them nicely and there a lot more durable. 
Foundationless is problematic for a cpl things extremly hot weather can cause collapse. Its also much harder to use drone removal as a mite control as they will build drone comb anywhere they like. 
I am NOT against foundationless, but I wont do it in a lang anymore. 
As for top bar hives Make those bars at 15 DEG and come to a point, that will give the strongest attachment. starter strips cause more problems. and as mike says, let them work the way in there better at it than we are!


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## Michael Bush

>Hmmm, maybe I should start with one of each! 

No, it's much better to start with two of the same thing. First of all you'll see how much difference there is between one colony and the next. Second, you'll be able to interchange frames if one gets in trouble and needs open brood.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm

>1. I will never do foundationless in a langstroth again. If your managing one hive I would say go for it. But if you do multiple hives it becomes more of a pain than anything.

I am running 200...

>2. Rarely will the bees follow the guidelines you set and work the frames evenly. I had bees building comes to the left...right...cross comb..etc. My hives are level.

I'm not sure what the cause of your difficulties is. Certainly having the frames tightly in the center makes a huge difference. Trimming them down to 1 1/4" and getting them even tighter is better. And, of course, you do have to keep an eye on them at first. A drawn comb in the center any new box is helpful.

>3. I noticed no difference in behavior them working foundationless frames versus foundation. I actually think in some cases hives were hotter because the foundationless comb being so out of wack and me breaking off chunks just trying to pull out a frame. 

Probably. Destroying combs will upset them... mostly, though I think it's the honey running and brood dying and bees getting squished...

> If your going foundationless in a lang, use wires. the bees will build around them nicely and there a lot more durable.

They do build around them nicely but they are always getting in my way. I like to cut it up for comb honey, especially when it's nice white comb, and I like to be able to cut queen cells out, and the wires are always getting in my way...

>Foundationless is problematic for a cpl things extremly hot weather can cause collapse.

True, but then I've had combs drawn on Duracomb foundation fall out on a hot enough day... especially if you're moving the hive...

> Its also much harder to use drone removal as a mite control as they will build drone comb anywhere they like.

I never remove drone comb... but they tend to build drone back to back, and if you really want to you can cut it out. But then you are selecting for Varroa mites that prefer workers...


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## Jamie Bucklin

Hello! I am starting my first 6pkgs. Of Russian bees in a few weeks! They are going into 8 frame med. boxes with woodlynbrand foundationless frames. What is the best way to introduce the queen? Direct release? Hang her in a frame? I have read that the bees often screw up the first comb when you hang her. What ya 'll think?


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