# Pollen feeding CA



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

This is a questionaire,

I have had many asking me to make my pollen patties ( Jarrett recipe) for sale.

So, I am considering this.

How many of you need this product in CA, now till almond time? 

Minimum order, I think, would be 1000 pounds and up.This is in bulk form 250 pound tubs or so.

Any thoughts on this, also those that aren't beesource members 
my e-mail [email protected]

Last but least.... PRICE... @ $ 1.20 lb. or so ... still kicking this around.

This isn't your avg pattie 

Keith Jarrett


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Why just offer it to people who can take a 1000 pounds? No offense Keith but this is what I dislike about a lot of people who sell things (not only in this industry but others too). When you say the min order is 1000 pounds, you have TOTALLY brushed off the smaller beekeepers. If that is your point, good job. But I do think there is a potential market to use smaller beekeepers! For example... if you said you were selling pollen patties.. I would be like "Great.. .a good product from Keith. I know Keith and he is a great person so I will buy form him". But when you say the min order is 1000, you totally shut off sooo many people. 

I would reconsider the min, PLEASE.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I would also offer to ship it!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> you have TOTALLY brushed off the smaller beekeepers.
> 
> Well,they could group together an order. Chef, it's kind of like buying a car, if your going to buy in the thousands you go to the factories , but if you only want a couple you go to a dealer.
> Chef, I'm not set up for small orders, labor, shipping, packaging ect...
> ...


Chef, I will give this some thought.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith:

Please do as there are too many companies that shut out the small folks. I think it is an unwise move to do so, especially in this industry as the hobby beekeepers out number the bigger operations. I think it is a niche market that is waiting to be tapped into.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Chef Isaac said:


> I think it is a niche market that is waiting to be tapped into.



So just buy a thousand pounds and start tapping into it...


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Isaac, why don't you consider being a dealer?
If the answer is "I don't have time", you see Keith's position. 
I sell a little beeswax and honey out the door here and do a little mail order. They are both very time consuming. The folks that pick up here want to talk, which is lots of fun but doesn't get my work done. The mail order stuff takes time packaging, printing the labels and shipping. 
All the orders need keeping track of which takes time organizing and additional paper work. 
With 1700 colonies to run (we took on extra help when we passed 1200) I am amazed Keith is even offering the patties in 1000# lots. 
What he should be selling is that special vitamin pack he must be taking every morning.
Sheri


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> Keith:
> 
> I think it is a niche market that is waiting to be tapped into.


Well Chef, that is what Im trying to do.

The out-of-state keeper has about 408 plus hives a load at the minimum, so at about 2.5 pounds plus per hive, He/She would use at least a thousand pounds of sub.

The out-of-stater want to feed 2-6 pounds of pollen sub as fast as they can and go back home, this is the market that I am trying to sevice.

Now if you look at the square store bought patties you will never get five & six pounds in a hive with out snapping frames. But if the mix is soft enough you CAN get a five plus pounds patty in a standard double deep.

Chef, this is why I do pollen in tubs, Have you seen pictures of those patty square's stack's of them on a pallet that the bee suppliers sell?? You would never see mine this way, if you did, half would bee on the floor. 

For speed in the bee yard, you want a patty that is plyable, but won't run down the frames.

This is the reason for tubs.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith: Check your pm


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Good idea Sheri & dcross!!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Isaac, why don't you consider being a dealer?
> 
> Thank you Sheri, that all chef needed.
> 
> ...


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## Reed Honey (Mar 3, 2005)

Keith, what do you use to mix this patty to ensure its mixed well?? Thanks


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

*Pollen patties*

Chef:

I can totally relate to Keith's reluctance to sell smaller amounts, he cannot make any money at it. Sure there are more hobbyists than commercial guys, but the commercial guys have the hives. The only he could make any money at it he would have to charge way too much money and would not be competitive with other companies. At one point earlier on I tried ordering queens for clubs that I went too. Talk about a pain, nobody wants too put up the money when needed. Oh I changed my mind, after queens are ordered. The way some people behaved it was as if they were doing me the favour. It was not worth the trouble. The way I see this is Keith needs x amount of money per order to make it worth his while , otherwise he'll run a few more hundred hives or take care of his other business interests.


I also sympathize with your plight Chef.

Jean-Marc


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Jean Marc:

I would have to disagree with you on this one. Lets take an example... you can buy, say, 200 pounds of salmon for $5.25 a pound from one of our supplies. If you want something smaller, say 2 pounds and you went to the supplier, they WOULD retail it out to you... cost a little more and they make some money. So yes, it can be done. 

This is where I think beekeepers go wrong. For example, say you harvest 2000 pounds of honey. Do you sell it all in bulk at a buck or less a pound to move it quickly? Or do you retail some of it out?? 

Highsight is 20/20 but I would retail it out, at least a little. Why not? Why not be able to supply some of the smaller operations? You are basiclly saying "screw you... you only have 10 hives... forget it...your not worth my time". 

To me, this is not right. If a rich man walks in and wants to buy a mushroom encrusted filet mignon and orders them every night for a week.... and then a poor family comes in and wants to order them... why not serve both people??? 

This is only my opinion so please do not judge me on this but I think in some ways beekeepers are foolish. It would behoove Keith (or anyone for that matter) to do some research and see what he needs to ask for. Find a distrubuter, and see what there. 

Another great example... if Sheri orders 1000 pounds of pollen patties... is it THAT MUCH MORE WORK TO DO AN EXTRA 20-50 POUNDS and pack it in smaller contianers to retail it out?

No wonder why commerical guys go out of business. 

A commerical beekeeper told me that the key to success in his business is in diversifacation. Sell queens to bigger people AND TO SMALLER PEOPLE. Sell honey to packers AND TO SMALLER PEOPLE. 

I understand the time restraints that Keith has. 

Do you hire people to extract? Who not have them mix up batches of pollen patties for you? I am just throwing out ideas here. 

I think we need to take some lessons from the bakeries.... and got knows that I have worked at a few. The bakeries... to be able to survive, realized that they need to venture out in different terratory. I am talking about the large bakeries here. So what did they do? The mixed bread for the restaurants and other small bakeries in town AND provided a retial outlet... charged more and made a he11 of a killing. If they had any bread left over the next day, they rolled them into 5 different kinds of croutons. They sold like hot cakes. 

This is only my opinion and I know it is different becasue I am not in Keiths or any other big leaugers shoes.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

To go further with an example... no offense Bjorn...

but Bjorn can get a killer deal on fondant... better then I could find. I do think, also, that he could sell the fondant to other beekeepers.. marking it up for his time and all. Plus with all the advantages of fondant... I think there is a niche market out there. 

And come on guys... you cant tell me that Keith could not make a profit margin out of this. Take a look at queens, packages, and nucs. The prices have gone up every year and WE CONTINUE TO BUY BEES.... and pay for the shipping. 

I would think that Keith could get himself in a situation that he says... "ok.. if you order x amount, it is this price... if you order x more it is this price". 

I think beekeepers need to be more OPEN MINDED about different avenues for sales... be it retail or wholesale.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

*Pollen patties*

Chef:

i'll reply only to the Sheri example at this point, as I was thinking of that example myself. It would probably a total pain to mix an extra 40 50 pounds. it's about 20% more than the 250 pound batches he mixes. It would be easier to mix an extra batch because he's certainly got that down by now. But having extra on hand would not kill him. He'd get killed on the extra time it takes to take the order then the time too package and get it shipped. In my opinion not worth it. Ok I lied here's a reply to the rich guy ordering steak. I'm sure you'd sell the dinner to the poor family if they ordered off the menu, but if they only wanted a quarter sized portion (after all they are poor) you might say sorry but you gotta order the full meal. It would not be worth it even if the restaurant had an upcharge of 20% on the quarter sized meal.

Jean-Marc


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

a person with ten hives is not going to the almonds and doesn't need need to force feed the hives. my thirtyfive california hives are taking in bee-pro at feeders like little piggys at the trough no offense to mr jarrett but i don't need him to to mix the couple patties per hive to stimulate in the spring. it's so small i can do it my self. now big operations/out of staters that could be a differant story. the labor could kill you.
no offense to chef this time but this little guy cuts out little guys all the time with salad mix.
i get resturaunts wanting five pounds and i have to say no. the moneys just not there for the time. i have to do a market of closer to fifty pounds to make it work. 
when you work alone you really have to manage your time. if your doing one thing something else is not getting done. it's a balancing act that some thrive on.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

stangardener said:


> no offense to mr jarrett but i don't need him to to mix the couple patties per hive to stimulate in the spring. it's so small i can do it my self. now big operations/out of staters that could be a differant story.
> 
> Stangarder, you hit the nail on the head,
> The local keepers can go out to their shop and mix there own cheaper.
> ...


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

What's in the patty? How much natural pollen?


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

If you need a 1000 lbs you probably should be making them yourself. Thats just about the point where commodity prices start dropping and economy of scale really drowns the inefficiences of larger operations.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Nick Noyes said:


> What's in the patty? How much natural pollen?



Nick your asking trade secrects. 

How about egg york, this is one of a dozen ingredience . How many of you are using this in your patties?

Natural pollen (CHINA), I have been leaning away from this. The value is questionable and I have been using other attactent's.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Someone is telling a fib.... dozen ingredients.... ha!  

I have been thinking about this topic a lot lately today as I was feeding the bees. Maybe it is not worth Keiths time. My point, however, is to keep options open. 

A good point in case... I went to a packing supplies house today to buy some boxes. The gent was really nice. I asked him if he sold indivual boes. He said " Yes.. and it is this price". Then he said if I were to buy a bundle of 25, it would be this price. 

See... this is what I like. Business that offer to sell to smaller people. For me, it was kinda large hit money wise to buy the bundles but over the long period, it will pay for itself. However, if Jane Blow comes off the street looking to buy one box, they would sell it to here to... at retail. 

That is my point. 

And, of course, I can not leave the restaurant comment without my 2 cents. THAT IS WHY RESTAURANTS SELL HALF PORTIONS OF THINGS. A great example is a steak, lets take the NY strip for exmaple. Smart restaurants will offer a 10 oz and a 5 oz steak. Price them accordingly and make a killing at it. The other example is a sandwich. Can have a whole or half.. no problem.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Aspera said:


> If you need a 1000 lbs you probably should be making them yourself. Thats just about the point where commodity prices start dropping and economy of scale really drowns the inefficiences of larger operations.


Yes, we are making our own for feeding here in Wisconsin. The problem is we can only carry so much weight out to California, so we either buy "store bought" patties out there or ship the mixer and buy ingredients in California to make them there, something the Comfort Inn might frown on.
We are still trying to decide just what to do in regard to this....

Chef, a dozen ingredients isn't unheard of in some of these recipes. Vitamins are added, sometimes 3 or 4 different ones, then there are a dozen different types of protein that could be added, a couple kinds of sugar etc etc etc.

Keith, these 250# totes, this is a little heavy for those of us that were hoping to leave the swinger at home. Have you considered smaller totes?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Last time I looked at the CCD forum, page three I think, keith mentions three ingredients in his pollen patties.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> Last time I looked at the CCD forum, page three I think, keith mentions three ingredients in his pollen patties.


Chef, that is true, for the avg keeper that is a good patty.

Now, if you want me to break down which goes in the mixer first and so on, no deal. Most would not be able to find all the ingredients to start with. So Chef, hold on tight to the turnup truck we dont want you falling off. 

I will give out this, three different proteins supplies, Vitamins's, two different attactents and so on.

Hey, now that I have named some here, watch for the supply houses to follow. But you have to have the bees consume this or it's all for nothing.

I, myself, me, have spent many hours trying new thing with the bees, many of my ideas dont work, but a few do.

Chef, I bet you could not find 50 lb bag of egg York to boot.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Keith, these 250# totes, this is a little heavy for those of us that were hoping to leave the swinger at home. Have you considered smaller totes?[/QUOTE]


Sheri, considered smaller totes , I have, I'm just bouncing these ideas off all of you to get a feel for what is the best route to take.

This is still just a mixing idea, although, I do mix for a guy in N. Dakota
he likes them in 55 gal drum cut in half.This is also the way I do mine.
But, if you are going to sell the container, it has to be cheap so the keeper does not have to return them.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith:

Got ya beat on the dry egg yolks. We use them for one of the breads we used to make at the bakery.  

Now.. fondant... I cant find at a cheap price 

Keith: Please check your PMs


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> Keith:
> 
> Got ya beat on the dry egg yolks. We use them for one of the breads we used to make at the bakery.
> 
> Chef, what's the price on egg yolk??


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith:

I will have to call the guys tomorrow and ask them as I only consult with them these days. When I worked there, I bought it for about $.52 a pound. Sometimes cheaper depending on if they had to move it for inventory.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> Keith:
> 
> I bought it for about $.52 a pound. Sometimes cheaper depending on if they had to move it for inventory.


Chef, are you sure, Brewers in the 50 bag is going around .80 pound.
Egg yolk is normally two and a half to three times what brewers is.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Pretty sure Keith. I can check again and call the guys if you need to know.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef, 

Egg yolk is a premium protein, I can't even buy brewers in the bag for .52 a pound, something smells fisheee here.

Chef, have you been in "Hell's kitchen" again??


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith:

You dont get it for a bag price.... .60 a pound, right? That is not to shabby. Dont forget, with the bakery, they get a GREAT price on everything because they buy in bulk. If you want me to call and check, just let me know. 

On the "hells Kitchen" comment, I did apply for that show and got to round two of the interview process. But they wanted a video tape and I didnt have a video camara. I would have loved to go on that show.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

>You dont get it for a bag price.... .60 a pound, right?

Chef, you buy brewers but the totes, but egg yolk does not come that way.

> Dont forget, with the bakery, they get a GREAT price on everything because they buy in bulk. 

I'm buying it by the truck load from the factory, 50,000 pounds trucked in to Calif.


> On the "hells Kitchen" comment, I did apply for that show and got to round two of the interview process. But they wanted a video tape and I didnt have a video camara. I would have loved to go on that show.

Thats too bad Chef, you could have made a dish using honey.Maybe you should try out again next season?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

gotta get a video cam first


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Keith I am not looking for trade secrets but I do like to have an idea what I am buying and putting in my bee hive. The egg yolk is interesting. How much protien is in it?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Nick Noyes said:


> Keith I am not looking for trade secrets but I do like to have an idea what I am buying and putting in my bee hive. The egg yolk is interesting. How much protien is in it?


Nick, 


protein 47%
fat 40%
Carbonhydrate 2.4% 


Nick, note the 40% fat, that is huge.... ( Cholesterol )

Have you ever read Degroot's thoughts on bee subs.

Keith


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

Chef Isaac said:


> gotta get a video cam first


maybe if you sold a thousand steaks in one whack instead of one at a timing them, you could get that video cam. lmao in wv


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

WV,

great point, Also, If Chef can buy egg yolk at .53 I would just be a dealer for that. Probobly make a lot more than being a dough boy like me.


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

Keith Jarrett said:


> ...note the 40% fat, that is huge.... (Cholesterol)
> Keith


Perhaps use eggbeaters™... 

Don't want to have to give the girls angioplasies...


MM


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

MapMan said:


> Perhaps use eggbeaters™...
> 
> >Don't want to have to give the girls angioplasies...
> 
> ...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

I dont mean to beat up a dead horse but have gotten many e-mails about pollen feeding..

It's alot cheaper to feed pollen, than to buy packages before the almonds to bost up your weak hives.

Couple keepers spoke about this in there e-mails.

I would have to agree, $120 for a package goes a long way toward bee feeds.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith:

For the smaller guys that want to make their own pollen patties, can you provide a recipe?


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Chef, that could be considered proprietary information.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I bet I could EASILY get the formula out of him....


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Why not share the recipe? When I was working in a French restaurant... my first real restaurant job, I had a customer ask me for the recipe for the potato dish that we were serving that night. I told her "I am sorry but those are secret". She told the Chef the next day when she called the restaurant and that day, the Chef yelled at me and told me that no recipe is secret and that, as cooks and chefs, we have an obligation to give out recipes. This means that they actually LIKE the food. 

On a side note, I did learn later that someone might ask for a recipe and we give it to them but if they like it, they will always come back!


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Do tell Bjorn.


I'll bet there are a couple of ingredients that you all are missing!


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## aallen (Feb 2, 2006)

*for the bees*

keith check your pm's-- wish you would consider either patent on your recipe or share for the sake of people who only want to do well with their bees... keith do you remember your struggle-- do it for mankind. i dont think me or my bees will ever detract from your goals or profits. just looking for basic pointers, could u nudge me in the right direction. you preach the protein benefits and you have a captive audience now. sure appreciate some input. sincerly, avery allen


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

aallen: I would have to totally agree with you!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

aallen said:


> keith do you remember your struggle--
> 
> Ha..... I did not know they had stoped. LOL LOL
> 
> ...


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

*Pollen patties*

Keith:

Sounds like you'll need a gorilla to move an 8 inch hose in the bee yard.

Jean-Marc


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jean-marc said:


> Keith:
> 
> Sounds like you'll need a gorilla to move an 8 inch hose in the bee yard.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Hi Jean-Marc,

Well, the pump has to be eight inch, that way you have plenty of feed going into the pump and it won't starve for product and you need a large pump because of the viscosity. Now coming out is maybe a two inch. ( if I was pumping water this would be a peice of cake)

So imagine.... a 500 hundred gallon hopper full of pre mixed sub...
Then have a auger at the bottom to feed the pump which is bolted the the hopper. Then a two inch line fifty feet long or so.

Now, so how would one control this contraption. Hey Chef, you want to bee first. 

Well been doing some thinking on that for months now.Maybe a remote control, like the concrete overhead pumper's have.

Still working the bugs out of this, but getting close.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

So Keith, I am guessing you will not share your pollen patty recipe, eh? Since you ignore the pm's and ignore when people asl you for it. 

Is my assumtpion correct? All you have to do is cirlce yes or no... I know you can do that


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> So Keith, I am guessing you will not share your pollen patty recipe, eh? Since you ignore the pm's and ignore when people asl you for it.
> 
> Is my assumtpion correct? All you have to do is cirlce yes or no... I know you can do that


Well Chef, let me ask you this.

What have you done (earned ) to receive a recipe that has taken me years and thousands of dallor spent to perfect.

Also, don't think for a second that the folks in MN would not steal this info if given the chance, this would being them up to speed after twenty years of horsing around.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

*Secret sauce?*

Hey Chief,
I'd say the answer will probably be no. Keith has more than a few thousand dollars in ingredients and many hours of r & d into the recipe and you'd like it for free. Ask KFC what's in their secret spices or Coca cola what's in their recipe and you'll probably get a no there also.

Just my guess. 

Jim


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Hey Jim, good guess

How was Oregon


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith:

That is one way to look at it yes. However, I can say the same thing to my cooks "why teach someone that costs me $85,000 and four years of my life?" Why does Barry spend his money and time keeping this forum going? 

He11... why give anyone help here or any where. 

I remember one beekeeper (or chef.. I cant remember) who used to say that one should not keep any secrets... as when you die... there is not one to know your secrets... so why keep them. Knowledge is for sharing!".

This is soo true. Why not share it? What do YOU have to benefit from from not sharing it? So you are really screwing the small guys... they cant buy it from you cause you wont sell less then 1000 pounds and now you wont share the recipe. 

No offense Keith.. but it hits a nerve in me. I guess since the Chef told me that recipes are to share... I have always believed it.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Sorry Jim... bad example. The owner used to give out the recipe to their customers back in the day. He was of the belief the customer COULD make it if they would like but almost all of them will return to our establishment to eat it. 

I will buy the Coke example... but not the KFC one .


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## aallen (Feb 2, 2006)

*just a little help please*

brewers yeast- type and best company to buy from, is the china at mn ok? egg yolk dry where to obtain best price? looking for another protein supplement but shy for the soy i read lots say inhibits brood after some time--- any suggestions on another type safe protein to add? is dry blood meal ok is high n protein has lots the essential amino's.? i was thinking to try the basic recipe keith posted with another protein supplement and some pollen hp for 15% but dont want to mess with his ratio-- any add vit c? what quantities. i have about 100colony to feed really need to come on strong this spring have lots money n time n want healthy happy bees is all. i will do my best try like keith to feed 30lb btw now n spring but as considerable invest to my already strapped enterprise i worry about palatablity. any help much much appreciated. sincerly avery allen


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

aallen,
The brewers yeast has all the protein you will need for bees. Protein means little without the proper amino acid levels. Any additive should be for making the bees like it more. A pinch of salt, vitamin C, powdered eggs, natural pollen 
etc.
Make your patties with HFCS or honey. Honey being the best. I have found that sugar syrup sometimes makes the patties dry out.

In side by side test, you can see that bee "prefer' one mix over the next if you want to make some comparisions with different formulas. If you only offer one type patty, the bees will take it. All the bells, whistles and hype for making patties with umpteen additives are a little overblown to put it mildly.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> aallen,
> The brewers yeast has all the protein you will need for bees. Protein means little without the proper amino acid levels. Any additive should be for making the bees like it more. A pinch of salt, vitamin C, powdered eggs, natural pollen
> 
> 
> ...


Well Bjorn, why does some patties consume faster, never gets hard, rises bees like no other?

Unless you believe, bells, whistles,overblown, mildly umpteen additives.

Thats all most funny, you said I was over blowing it when I mention vitellogenin levels in the fall bees months ago, now it's accepted, imagine that. 

Im just a rookie at this , "it's not my first day..... it's my second"


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## aallen (Feb 2, 2006)

*i see your request was answered, several times on this forum, appreciate your reply*

"Help,

HBH, is to be feed directly??
I thought it was to be mixed with more syrup.?
Does any one know the HBH formala? ( the amount you buy in the gallon jug)
Thanks Keith"


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

what additives would you suggest , Keith? 

People would like to learn, it would be nice if you could teach us a little. 

While we are on the subject... I would like to SHARE (see Keith, it is not that hard!) an interesting piece of information when I emailed Eric Mussen who works at UC Davis in Califlornia. We were talking about cholesterol in feeding. He mentioned dried egg yolks but said that the better source of such fats is canola oil. I find this interesting. 

Keith, have you tried this?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

>better source of such fats is canola oil. I find this interesting. 

>Keith, have you tried this?[/QUOTE]

I use it, but egg also does have a important role as well with different make up.

But you keep asking for a FREE ride.

You did the right thing by putting out some effort on your own and e-mailing Eric.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith:

I have no problem asking and researching. I do not look at it like looking for a free ride. I first ask YOU if I could buy it and you said "not unless you can take 1000 pounds min". Then I asked you if I could be the middle man FOR YOU so YOU could sell to smaller beekeepers. You did not respond. THEN I asked for your recipe. Why? BECAUSE YOU GIVE ME NO OTHER CHOICES. You will not sell me any., you will not let me be the middle man... What other choices to I have Keith? 

Freakin seriously.... answer me that question!!!!!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> Keith:
> 
> I have no problem asking and researching. I do not look at it like looking for a free ride. I first ask YOU if I could buy it and you said "not unless you can take 1000 pounds min". Then I asked you if I could be the middle man FOR YOU so YOU could sell to smaller beekeepers. You did not respond. THEN I asked for your recipe. Why? BECAUSE YOU GIVE ME NO OTHER CHOICES. You will not sell me any., you will not let me be the middle man... What other choices to I have Keith?
> 
> Freakin seriously.... answer me that question!!!!!


Well, good greaf Chef, take a chill pill. 

First of all, I think I'm going to stop taking orders for pollen sub as I have had many orders for Nov. I do not want to over commit. 

When you start adding all these different items this changes the make-up, what works for me here may not work in ND, so you have to find what works in your area the best.

Chef, remember this is not some wonder drug.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith:

you are avoiding the question, Keith!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> Keith:
> 
> you are avoiding the question, Keith!


What question's that Chef....

That your so mad at me..... you could fry an egg on your forehead


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

reread post 65

I am not mad I am just frusterated that you will not share the knowledge you have. Cant buy the pollen patties... cant be the middle man... can make it cause you wont provide a recipe.


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## aallen (Feb 2, 2006)

*u want frustration?2weeks research,still dont know what to do*

i read all your post you ever posted keith-- always read and try whatever i can. been researching lots on this topic but not much clear info that relates to good basic formula with cost and availability in mind. i still dont see a cheaper source than mn for yeast and as you point out is china so would rather not if possible. seems no two are doing alike on the patty issue and i cant afford nor am interested in pre bought. some have no success yet others do so is obvious somewhere somehow someone knows something. its obvious your the articles in abj and some post here have generated alot of interest in the concept. if that was not your purpose could you not see it in the making when you did so? you were sure to stir interest and went out of your way to post pics to do so it seems you like the attention. so you have a audience now asking for basic help no secrets about your personal life. it seems you have time to play word footsie with chef over the topic and would have been much more simple to just provide the basics out of profesional courtesy and keep your max top secret excellerants for your prodegy. all the small peoples who try thank you sincerly karma be good to ya


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## aallen (Feb 2, 2006)

i read all post here protein supplements, the australian site fat bee article the ucla site u mention in your post here, the only hits on it are honeybeeworld where u had pics but is no longer avail to see or read. how was the recent yeast you obtain? quality good? you make mention of things but never elaborate or follow up and hope u understand some people would like to learn-- whats the use of half dialoge and riddles


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Keith,
My comments about vitellogenin were not in accepting or denying the information. And it certainly did not go back as far as "last fall". My comments were about just throwing around the "word of the day" (vitellogenin) in ways that the average beekeeper...1) can't relate too and 2) has no way of testing for. You certainly were not the first to mention vitellogenin, so please don't give yourself too much credit there for "using" the term. 

For those who can not or don't need a thousand pounds of patties....do yourself a favor and get some bee-pro patties from MannLakeltd. They are the best patty/sub on the market and are one of the only companies that actually lists nutritional information on their product. Or buy some base product and play around with your own recipe. MannLake does NOT use foreign brewers yeast in their pollen sub as has been mentioned by others. I know their supplier. Its made in the U.S. It is a shame when one party makes claims about another company or competitor, and a third party needs to make a phone call and ask simple questions to set the record straight.

One of the most important things you as a beekeeper should know, is what the nutritional values are for what your feeding the bees. There is alot of supplements on the market for bees. Some of the bells and whistles I mention may get your bees to eat it faster or keep a patty from becoming hard as Keith has said. But it means little if the pollen sub/patty is not nutritionally sound. Many supplements are not nutritionally sound for healthy bees.

BTW keith, can you list your nutritional analysis of your pollen sub? And what lab/company did the testing?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

aallen and bjorn: Well said!

I would have to agree with aallen. Keith, you give no other option. You speach highly of your patties, wont sell to the smalelr guy, wont let someone be the middle man, and wont give out the recipe. And not willing to help... it can say a lot about someone. 

As somone once said: "Knowledge that is not passed down and taken to the grave, is knowledge that has been given up the right to be approved upon".


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I guess I do not see the point of not sharing or helping others. That is why I hate fishing with a fishing club... so freakin secrative. Life is not about being secrative.. it is about helping out, passing knowledge and being able to build on that knowledge. 

Since STILL... you havent answered my question to post 65.... I do not even know how you can justafy not screwing the samll guy. Basically you are saying "screw you, take 1000 pounds or figure it out yourself". Not sure how you think you are not doign that. Look back at your posts and the PMs. I do think you will agre with me.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Why not be a teacher and teach?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I MADE A HUGE ERROR! AND WANT TO CORRECT IT ASAP.

Please reread my previous comments. I added "NOT" in a comment about brewers yeast that MannLake is using. It should state "does not use foreign sources....".


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

BjornBee said:


> I MADE A HUGE ERROR! AND WANT TO CORRECT IT ASAP.
> 
> Please reread my previous comments. I added "NOT" in a comment about brewers yeast that MannLake is using. It should state "does not use foreign sources....".


Thanks for the clarification....

I read that 3x and was confused  (Which isn't unusual so I just figured it was me)


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Bjorn wrote,
>And it certainly did not go back as far as "last fall". 

the fall Bjorn.


>lists nutritional information on their product.

This only tell you what in it , it does not tell you how much
It's kind of like honey nut cherrio's..... Sugar & HFCS has twenty times more sweetner than the honey , but it's say " honey nut cherrio's" leads one to beleive it's made from honey.
this tells me nothing.

>Or buy some base product and play around with your own recipe.

Hey we have a winner.


> It is a shame when one party makes claims about another company or competitor, 

When six keepers look at the tag and the only info offered was china , you tell me what one would draw. Your the one preaching about product list. Mmmm


>One of the most important things you as a beekeeper should know, is what the nutritional values are for what your feeding the bees. 


Well, I haven't seen one that has a break down on Vitamins & Minerals. I do however have that on egg yolk V & M and with 18 amino acid's count's.
I dont see that from other subs. I only see 10 from Bee pro and no V & M listed.



>There is alot of supplements on the market for bees. Some of the bells and whistles I mention may get your bees to eat it faster or keep a patty from becoming hard as Keith has said. But it means little if the pollen sub/patty is not nutritionally sound. Many supplements are not nutritionally sound for healthy bees.


The proof is in the bees , Bjorn, what do the bees look like after all the work has been done. That's the true tale.

>BTW keith, can you list your nutritional analysis of your pollen sub? And what lab/company did the testing.

Many, as egg yolk , and the V & M that I use ,yes I can. Also "Dairy Land Food Labs".

Many researcher's still don't know how to duplicate pollen . But they do give you info that the bees need. That where we are here today.

Talk to Noble Apiaries, Phil, sets bees next to me in the almonds for years. He has ask me how in the hel... do you get those bees to look like that?

The proof is in the pudding.

Bjorn, let me ask you this, if we said Vitamins C is added. Ok, how much? what ratio to the other ingredients? then how much of a dose?
what time of intervels. 

All of these would be nice to know which we don't. 
But your concerned with product lables which really doesn't help you much. 

Your driving with your head lights off if you just think ingredient list.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Chef,

I understand your frustration about wanting folks to share knowledge etc.... Keith and many others do here on a regular basis. 

That said.... Keith is looking at a potential business opportunity...

He stated in his first post that he is "considering this" and kicking this around. If someone has an idea about a potential business opportunity in a niche market why would they go lay all their cards on the table for bigger conglomerates to pimp? It just doesn't make good business sense.

Lets face it... sharing ideas at your local bee club where most often 100% of the folks are hobbiest is one thing. When bees provide you with a living or a substantial portion of your income then sharing every nitty gritty about your BUSINESS can be counter-productive and could cost you money.

There are hobbiests and then there are folks in the business...

Don't take this wrong Chef... I like you... but I say cut Keith some slack. He's been willing to share plenty of info on other issues. He doesn't even know what he wants to do yet with the pollen sub opportunity (unless I missed something)

Are his patties the next best thing to Gold? Who knows!!! Remember he's thinking about selling a product!  I have had great luck using Bee Pro mixed with my own collected pollen. I'd like to know all his ingredients too so I could play with my own mix some... I'd like to learn more about what Bjorn knows as well and he's talked about it some... but I can't say I've done any real research compared to Keith and Bjorn on the nutritional requirements etc. so I'd be remiss to ask them to do all the work and then ask for the cliff notes. 

I guess I just understand where Keith is coming from on this one.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

im with dan and keith on this one if i developed somthing that could get my bees a few frames stronger than any one elses in almonds i would not freely give out that info cause before you know it others are useing it and then there bees are also better. Meaning that my bees are no longer the premium thus cant rent my bees out for as much as they used to go for. 
really like the pump idea i also am doing some reserch on this m uncle has a few big pumps that he uses for culk and stuff so i am going to talk to him about it. 
regards Nick


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Never....ever....open the bag to peek at the cat. You never know when the cat will jump out......


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Bjorn you eraced your last post, WHY. I was going to answer it.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Have the cat jump into one of my hives, then ask the cat the same Question.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

On second thought, it was not something I wanted to do to Mannlake. I like you, have many secrets and sometimes in my haste to make a point, say something, and regret it down the road.

If you read the post, fine. I don't think it will benefit my business if that type information becomes mainstream.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

That type insider information is worth alot more than the satisfaction of taking a jab at someone....


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Dang it.... I missed it... darn meetings...


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I come from a different lines of thinking. Yes, I do understand the business aspect of it however, I do believe you missed the point of the previous posts. I first asked if I could buy some. The answer was "if you are going to take 1000 pounds, yes". Then I asked if I could distrubute it to the smaller guys and there was no answer. So with those two questions asked, I simply asked for the recipe. No go there. 

The question still stays the same: How can a smaller beekeeper, someone that can not take 1000 pounds acquire Keiths pollen patties? A few answers that one cane pick from:

1) sell them to smaller people and charge a little more to cover expenses. 
2) create a middle man. 
3) provide a recipe or at least a working recipe
4) do not provide anything. Market to the bigger guys and screw the smaller guys. 

See, in my opinion, it behooves Keith to either do option 1 or 2. You can totally see this with bigger operations like Coke Company or Sysco or Food Services of america (sorry for the food related examples). They do not only sell to bigger hotels and restaurants for cheaper price (the quanitity thing... like Keiths 1000 pounds) but they ALSO sell to the smaller restaurants AND retail it out to home buys. Why? SIMPEL... BECAUSE THERE IS A MARKET. 

I just see it differently. I do respect all other opinions and do understand them. I am open to new ideas and I do think other beekeepers should be to. Am I mad? Only to the extent that I have been taught... which is to share what one has (knowledge wise). Could be cook tips, inside information on cooking, whatever. I think of it like this: Whatever benefits the community as a whole. If it benefits me to give away any "trade" secret recipes or techniques, no problem. Am I disapointed? I would have to say yes. It disapoints me knowledge can not flow withouth any "secrets". 

I do understand the business aspect, I do and respect that.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Bjorn, I will answer one about XZY CO in the post you eraced.

In business, you never put all your eggs in one bag.

So when I buy, I use two or more suppliers, just in case one runs out of product.

This has happen to me in the past, so if I have a active account with another company they tend to work with you more so than if you just walked in off the street.

If it took a nickel to go around the world, I couldn't make it to the stop sign.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> That type insider information is worth alot more than the satisfaction of taking a jab at someone....


One thing I can do that many can't and that is back up what i say.

RESULTS , talk to Randy Oliver he has seen and buy's bees from me.
Or ask Ray Olivarez of Olivarez Honey Bees why buy from Keith.
Or ask Phil, Noble Apiaries what do Keith's bees look like in almonds in Feb and why buy from him.
All these guys can be found in the ABJ.

I don't have to toot my horn, these guys can give you a third party veiw.

They will tell you, you better eat your wheaties


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Toot! Toot! Goes Keith.....


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> Toot! Toot! Goes Keith.....


Well, [edit by mod] YA.

How many pollen sub selling feeders can do that. Show proof in there bees. After all, that is what we are doing this for.

MAN, got to get those bee pictures in here again.....that's worth a thousand toot's.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Chef Isaac said:


> I come from a different lines of thinking. Yes, I do understand the business aspect of it however, I do believe you missed the point of the previous posts. .


No I knew what your points were....

However....



Chef Isaac said:


> See, in my opinion, it behooves Keith to either do option 1 or 2. ....... Why? SIMPEL... BECAUSE THERE IS A MARKET. .


What is the market? Can you assure Keith that you can move as a middle-man 1000lbs of his product? I can only speak for myself but I would be more interested in building a long-term relationship with someone who could move say 1000lbs or more on a REGULAR basis.... why go to the hassle to sell a small hobbiest 1000lb lot and then never hear from them again most likely or only very sporadically. 

I had a guy ask me for local goldenrod honey this year.... I told him I leave the fall flow on for the bees. He said... I'd pay you double what you are asking for this quart if you'll sell me a quart of it. I told him NO. It was not even remotely worth my effort to mark the product up and sell him 1 measley quart. I'd spend more than the extra $10 I might make in time and clean up etc....He was upset and stomped off. I tried to explain to him that even if he paid me $50 for the quart I wasn't interested. My equipment was cleaned up and put away for the winter. he didn't want a frame... he wanted it extracted etc... $50 wasn't worth my time to have to clean up the mess...and deal with it. Is the customer always right? They always have the right to ask... I made a business decision that his business wasn't worth the extra $10 I could have made. Frankly, I didn't have time to go that route and we know TIME IS MONEY! 

So lets say Keith mixes a 50lb batch for the smaller guy.... It might not be worth it even if he charged you 4x as much per pound as he charged the 1000lb buyer. At some point your (his) time is better spent doing other things like catering to those who are gonna buy 5000 lbs or 10,000 lbs per year. Sure its "nice" to say everyone is welcome but people like Keith only have so much time and need to focuse their resources where they can get the most bang for their time and $$.

The other conglomerates you mentioned have massive production lines, resources, and pipelines. I don't think you can compare Keith to a conglomerate.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Dan, well said


Chef, I am no different than you, I put on my pants one leg at a time.

But you could fill this market of small orders of pollen sub. Why don't you? If you feel you could sell alot, why not?

I have stoped taking orders on my stuff because I want to be sure that I can handle the orders that I have, on time and provide a good service that should be expected from those's out-of-state keepers.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith and Dan:

I see both of your points, like stated above and I do respect them whole heartedly. 

However, I am in the business (food business we are taking) of customer service. A customer comes in, orders a steak and wants hollandaise sauce, we make it. Does matter if there is 50 guys on the line or not, we make it for that one person. 

I do see your point Dan however, wouldnt you agree that there are less commerical guys these days and more sidelines and hobby beekeepers? I am just saying, there is a market for it, yes. 

I would love to buy 1000 pounds from Keith and resell it. Issue comes with trasporting and storage but that is my bag, not yours. 

I do see the point yes. It will be a good learnign experiance for me. 

I do think we see eye to eye and some points, but like I said, I am in the customer business. Doesnt matter if it is one order of hollandaise sauce or 5000.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> Keith and Dan:
> 
> I see both of your points, like stated above and I do respect them whole heartedly.
> 
> ...


Chef, what if a thousand customer's walked in at once and order steak.
How long till the 999 guy got his steak.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

With your sauce... you've made a business decision that its worth it to provide it no matter what.

Without a doubt there are more hobbiest... However... how many of the hobbiests out there are interested in the lastest supplement or wanting to know what the nutritional make-up of the patties are? 

There are some yes..... many people (not all) here on Beesource tend to be a more enlightened bunch. They are interested in learning more... understanding more.... trying new things... etc....

There are ALOT of hobbiests out there.... that don't care... or don't put in the time to educate themselves. Many hobbiests aren't interested in slapping large amounts of stimulants (pollen sub/ syrup) on their hives in late Feb/March (in my area) to stimulate large populations in time for pollination or ensure strong hives in fall to give them a good base for wintering strong clusters again with the thoughts of making splits/ pollination, q-rearing, etc... the NEXT Spring. I would argue MOST aren't thinking about next Spring the year prior.... they are just crossing their fingers and hoping they have hives come next spring.

Maybe it is lack of interest.. maybe its lack of funds... most hobbiests aren't in it for the $$. I'm a hobbiest w/ 54 hives but I'm trying to make some sideline money. Hopefully we can get over 100 hives by this time next year. I'm willing to invest time and $$ into growing a QUALITY operation. I'll probably gross about $8K in sales this year... small I know but EVERY PENNY will go back into the business and more will be added to it. Most hobbiests are in it cause its fun, because they can get some honey for them and family/friends etc... If they get enough to meet that demand why spend the extra $$ and time. 

I think the demand is less than you think from the hobbiest standpoint.

I've said my piece... I'll step back and watch from the sidelines again!


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

This has been an interesting thread to follow. With good points on both sides.
We would all like to know the "trade" secrets, 
but Keith has "earned and paid for the right" to hold his cards close to his chest.
The final decision is his, and it should be respected.
Overall in beekeeping there are very few secrets. Most of the secrets that people hold as true were found in the past and have just been relearned.
When it comes to Hive Nutrition there is much more we don't know than what we know.

But, Keith --- If you ever want to spill the beans. Call me I really want to know.!!!

Frank Wyatt
Eden, NC


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I'm not even sure what the marketing effort was to begin with here on beesource. Keith mentions some rather large operators that use his prodcut, if thats the way I'm supposed to read it.
I would think rather than debating, discussing, and tooting to a few beekeepers here on beesource, that direct marketing to beekeepers who are large enough to handle such 1000 pounds orders would be more advantagous. Anybody in the know, know who the larger operators are.

But I would like to say way to go to Keith. He advertises for potential business on September 30th, and ten days later says he now has stopped taking orders as he is booked. Can I ask how many 1000 pound orders you filled Keith in the past ten days, and also how many came directly from beesource? If of course, this is not considered "business secrets".

I here tooting, but not sure if its from a whistle/horn anymore... 

Now move over Dan. I want to stand next to ya on the sidelines.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith:

We would accomadate them! That is what we do, we are in the customer service indistry, hence the term hospitality industry! It is very simple, good service, good food, accomadate to what their needs are and all that equals a good chance of repeat business.

Now Dan, good points. Would have to agree with you to the most part. I do think when a hobbiest or even sideliner asks themselves certain questions like how/what can I do to stop buying packages and nucs in the spring? Or what can I do to raise queens in the warmer months? Then... they will find out certain thigns like feeding pollen patties would help. As they progess and learn (of course depending on where they want to go with beekeeping) than of course, I do think there is opprotunity to sell to smaller guys. 

Listen, like I said, we see eye to eye on a lot of things however, not this topic. From a business standpoint, you need to do what is right for you. From a customer service standpoint (from the food part of it) I see things differently. Said and done!

This inspires me to do two things.... 1)learn more abotu what is needed as far as nutrition goes. 2) get my numbers up so I can BUY from Keith . 

Best of luck to you Keith on your desicion. I can only hope to either buy some from you someday or learn a recipe like yours. Like I said, you need to do what is right for you and your business. We just see things diffrently and that is ok!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> I'm not even sure what the marketing effort was to begin with here on beesource. Keith mentions some rather large operators that use his prodcut, if thats the way I'm supposed to read it.
> 
> Bjorn, Large operators that buy my bulk bees, after feeding the pollen sub to my own hives.
> 
> ...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

WG Bee Farm said:


> When it comes to Hive Nutrition there is much more we don't know than what we know.
> 
> 
> Frank Wyatt
> Eden, NC


Very well said.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Keith,
You went from your opening post of "I have had many asking me to make my pollen patties ( Jarrett recipe) for sale.

So, I am considering this"

WOW, going from "thinking" about selling some, (to ten days later) taking orders in the tens of thousands of pounds, and one order being 20,000 pounds. You are truly amazing. Congrats!

Don't mind me....I've got some stuff to discuss with Dan over on the sidelines. And don't think for a minute we are talking about you if your ears start burning.....


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

BjornBee said:


> Keith,
> 
> Don't mind me....I've got some stuff to discuss with Dan over on the sidelines. And don't think for a minute we are talking about you if your ears start burning.....


Not hard to save you a spot... no one wants to stand next to me over here anyway....


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well Bjorn,
you know I'm in construction, heavy equiptment rental business.It's dead, so I'm setting here with time on my hands this fall.I dont move bees very far like some do, I'm all within 60 miles from home at all times.

Some out-of-state freinds have been asking for pollen sub for some time. I thought what the heck, I'm not doing much this fall.
That's when I posted, but I aready had orders from freinds.Then they started coming in and I thought, I'd better be able to delivier this product on time, so I am happy with what I have.

Bjorn, bees start coming in to Calif by the thousands, Oct 15 on, I haven't scratched the surface of the pollen end of this business.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Need to apply soap?*

I'll make the point here, but it covers many other forums and threads of late. All forms of profanity and crude language are prohibited on the board. Some are close to having restrictions placed on them as I tire of editing posts. Using asterisks in place of a word doesn't cut it either.

Thank you.


- Barry


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

That was Keith.. no me... lol


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith... you are in trouble... again!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> Keith... you are in trouble... again!


Ya..... but not as bad as Bob Dole on the other thread


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith:

please check your pms and respond to at least this one.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Keith Jarrett said:


> One thing I can do that many can't and that is back up what i say.
> 
> RESULTS , talk to Randy Oliver he has seen and buy's bees from me.
> Or ask Ray Olivarez of Olivarez Honey Bees why buy from Keith.
> ...


Keith -

You sure got a lot of people wanting your pollen substitute. It appears the perception is, the sole ingredient to your success and top notch bees all boils down to this "secret" recipe. Personally, I'm pretty skeptical about all this. There are so many elements that are part of having healthy bees. How have you measured the impact of this one aspect to beekeeping? I'm going to start sounding like Jim F. now. (that's good!) Where's the data?

BTW folks, Jo Traynor has listed this in his newsletters:

Feed sources*
Norm Cary - (559)562-0300
Feed-Bee - (800)387-5292
Global Patties - (866)948-6084
Pat Heitkam - (530)865-9562
Mann Lake - (800)880-7694

Pollen Sources
Walt Dahmer - (780)963-4281
Ernie Fuhr - (250)785-4808
Stakich, Inc. - (248)642-7023
Cathy Zou - (909)820-6669

and:

http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/supfeeding78.htm

- Barry


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Also, "Beekeeping In The United States" Agriculture handbook number 335 has an extensive chapter called Honey Bee Nutrition And Supplemental Feeding by L. N. Standifer.

I ought to get it digitized and add it to the other chapters I have available on POV.

- Barry


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well Barry,

how this for data.

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_1432.jpg

But I have said more than once, this is not a wonder drug.

Good beekeeping applies.

Barry, most do not drive there bees with pollen sub like I do. As we speak I have got the bees to go threw 10 pounds plus of sub this fall.
There working right now on the second ten pound round.

As for Randy, Ray and Phil they buy BULK BEES for me. Not pollen sub.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Keith Jarrett said:


> As for Randy, Ray and Phil they buy BULK BEES for me. Not pollen sub.


Yes, that is what I understood, but the point you make about them buying your bees is that it has to do with your pollen sub., yes?

- Barry


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Keith Jarrett said:


> But I have said more than once, this is not a wonder drug.
> 
> Good beekeeping applies.
> 
> ...


Chef, are you reading this? Not a wonder drug. Good beekeeping applies. Keith drives his bees hard with the sub. Several factors at play here. I'll bet you could put together your own sub and use those big boy mixers you have access to! 

- Barry


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Barry said:


> Keith -
> 
> > Personally, I'm pretty skeptical about all this. There are so many elements that are part of having healthy bees.
> 
> ...


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

dont forget to answer the pm keith!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Barry said:


> Chef, are you reading this? Not a wonder drug. Good beekeeping applies. Keith drives his bees hard with the sub. Several factors at play here. I'll bet you could put together your own sub and use those big boy mixers you have access to!
> 
> - Barry


Barry are you reading this??

I tryed to tell Chef more than once, this is not a wonder drug, I told him last night I beleive.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef, you know I'm no good at this computer. It took me 5 minutes to go threw my post and reword anything that might be out of bounds.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Barry are you reading this??
> 
> I tryed to tell Chef more than once, this is not a wonder drug, I told him last night I beleive.


Yea . . . and I still don't understand Chef's obsession with YOUR sub. There must be something more I'm not getting.

- Barry


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

yes, keith has told me this more then once. 

Keith: just at least let me know if it is a no go or a yes go. At least do that.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Barry, are you going to be in Sacramento at the Jan meeting?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Barry:

There is no real obsession. Just wanted to buy some... but not 1000 pounds. Wouldnt mind moving some for Keith or even making some but no go on both of those. Which is ok of course.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Barry said:


> Yes, that is what I understood, but the point you make about them buying your bees is that it has to do with your pollen sub., yes?
> 
> - Barry


Yes, to a point Barry, Ray needs bees early, most keepers can't start shaking till a round March 15. I can start in late Feb, because the bees are there.

Phil,Clyde, are Queens guys also and need early bees. They call me and say I need 500 pounds a day after tomarrow, they know who has the bees and who they can relay on. Alot of guys have a hard time shaking 500 pound in april let alone feb or March


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Feeding Bees*

Here is my ratio.
3 parts soy flour
1 part brewers yeast
1 part clean pollen. The pollen can be sofened over night by adding warm water to the pollen until it is slightly covered. 
10 % dried egg yolk or freash as it blends better.
The pollen may absorb a lot of water. So, add more later in about 1-2 hours. Some people onley add 10 % pollen.

I use 3:1 heavy sugar syrup or a HFCS.

Pour or mix one gallon of the syrup-- 4 quarts in a food grade plasic bucket. Add the moistened pollen to the syrup and mix by hand, add the egg yolk,mix add the brewers yeast, mix, add the soy flour mix and then you can add syrup as needed to get the mixture to a pie dough consistancy. Let the mix set over night to absorb the liquids. If the mix is runny add some of the dry parts and if it is to stiff add some syrup.
I use an ice cream scoop and give the bees 1-3 scoops between wax paper. I use a board to flatten out the mixture so that it fits between the lower brood chamber and the hive body.
The mix has to be near the brood area to be properly consumed. I have had bees consume three scoops per week. The bees need to be fed syrup to stimulate brood rearing.
If the bees do not consume the mix they are probably queen less.
The above mix has L-lysine.

I have been using Bee-Pro patties and I prefer them to all the work listed above.
I have a 1 & 1/2" feed rim with a feeder on top of singles and doubles and this method is simple and quick! The feeder is inside the hive super so that I can feed the Bee0Pro and HFCS---BevSweet at the same time. I am now feeding the second time as temperatures are favorable.

Best regards,
BEES4U
Lucas Apiaries
I have purchased all of my breeder queens from Tom & Suki Glenn who are the owners of Glenn Apiaries.
I am proud to say that I have more than one breeder queen in what they offer on their web site.

Los Angeles Honey Co. has helped me a lot over the past 37 years. And, so has Dadant & Sons.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Lucas:

Thank you for SHARING your knowledge. Someone's mommy taught them to share!


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

Oooops. Sorry BjornBee and Dan, didn't mean to bump into you. Couldn't find my way out of the locker room. I know my opinion doesn't mean anything...

Keith! I think it's great you've put in the time and effort and denaro to come up with something that works this well for you. Congrats on the orders and launching of this venture.

Yeah I'm a hobbiest, only eight hives, and no I'm not feeling like you're doing me wrong for the order requirements. I have an anal compulsion of trying to study as much as I can about anything I'm doing. Bee nutrition is something I was never really taught anything about but have learned, from this and other sites, that nutrition is not just sugar syrup and protein patties. So I've started down that dark alleyway in search of enlightenment.

You are considering now, probably, the future of this branching out. I hope it works out for you and I'm sure the 'secret' will not be lost but safely stored in more than one location for the future.

OOOhhh man!!! I got my jersey on backwards. Need to go back to the locker room and fix it. Trust me you DON'T want this visual image. Now if I can only use both hands and a road map would I find my way back...? Just wanted to say ATTABOY!


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

One point that needs to be made is that most people reading this thread DON"T need to be feeding 10-20lbs per colony of pollen sub in the late summer and fall.

I don't have 100, 200, 300, or more colonies in ONE HOLDING YARD.

There is not enough pollen within the radius of one yard that can supply enough pollen to meet the requirements of that many colonies without supplying thier supplemental needs.

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Keith and most of the folks that Keith is refering to will be using this pollen sub are in areas that are holding thousands of colonies spread out over the state/county etc.

My home yard has 30 colonies (my biggest bee yard). There is enough pollen from local sources to keep them supplied... in fact I had several colonies getting pollen bound this past spring AND again in the fall. I did feed 1lb patties to each hive just as insurance but I actually think it exacerbated the pollen bound issues in some of the hives. I think it really helped some of the nucs.

There is enough pollen for all my colonies at all of my yards in the fall BUT there never seems to be enough nectar. I've had to feed syrup in the fall for the past 2 years. I feed alot of syrup starting in late Aug or early Sept mostly to splits made up in late July. 

My point is that Keith NEEDS to feed pollen ALOT more than most of us do. You need to know your area. We each have our own specific needs, circumstances, and demands on our bees. Does it hurt to feed pollen in the fall? Absolutely not! Do most of us need to feed 10lbs or even 5 lbs per colony? I would have a problem trying to feed that much to my hives in the fall.

Just because Keith does it doesn't mean everything he does is the Holy Grail to beekeepign and we all need to do the same things! He has specific needs, a specific climate, and different demands than many of us at a different time of the year than many of us. Keep that in mind.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

>There is not enough pollen within the radius of one yard that can supply enough pollen to meet the requirements of that many colonies without supplying thier supplemental needs.

Hi Dan, yes there is, But something about pollen patty will get them to brood like nothing else.

>I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Keith and most of the folks that Keith is refering to will be using this pollen sub are in areas that are holding thousands of colonies spread out over the state/county etc.

Well, two weeks ago I started moving to holding yards which will be about 500 -700 apiece. Before that (summer) they were in 40 to a drop.

>My point is that Keith NEEDS to feed pollen ALOT more than most of us do. 

Maybe, maynot

>You need to know your area.

Dan, that is A good point.

> Do most of us need to feed 10lbs or even 5 lbs per colony? I would have a problem trying to feed that much to my hives in the fall.

FYI, a hive can go threw 80-100 pounds of pollen a year.

>Just because Keith does it doesn't mean everything he does is the Holy Grail to beekeepign 

Ahhh Dan, don't let so much air out  


Here's a question for all of you to ponder, do you pollinate almonds, buy packages or have increase in mind next year. If so, feed, its the cheapest thing you can do.


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## Beemaninsa (Jun 9, 2004)

I wish I could try some, but I have SHB. Beetles can make a mess of patties if conditions are right.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

>Hi Dan, yes there is, But something about pollen patty will get them to brood like nothing else.

If its only 40 to a drop then YES there may be enough pollen there to suffice. That gets back to knowing your area.

>Well, two weeks ago I started moving to holding yards which will be about 500 -700 apiece.

Which is why many who are coming to CA to winter before Almonds will need to buy pollen sub and could be a great bus opportunity for you. In those yards there there CANNOT be enough nutrition available naturally for them to succeed w/out supplement. This is not the situation with most on beesource.

>FYI, a hive can go threw 80-100 pounds of pollen a year.

Maybe I just happen to be in a good area. I trap pollen in the spring and fall to use in stimulative patties. I tracked 3 hives with traps on them this spring and ended up with 7 one-gal ziplock bags of pollen in 3 weeks just from those three hives. These 3 hives still ended up getting pollen bound. I had to take frames of pollen out to give the queen room to lay. Those frames went nicely into early splits.

I trapped for only a week this fall on three hives and ended up with a 2 gal bucket full off of these three hives which I mixed with some spring pollen and bee-pro and fed back mostly to nucs.

>Ahhh Dan, don't let so much air out  

This is not to discredit you in anyway.

Just trying to be realistic.

I don't do almonds and most here don't. I don't think many of us need the same stimulate at the same time or maybe the same amount that you do. If I lived in your area and had the pollination requirements that you do I might NEED to do the same thing as you. I enjoy hearing how you manage your colonies with your needs. 

My pollination jobs don't start until the end of April/1st of May. I start feeding patties and syrup around the last week of Feb/1st week of March and can have booming hives by the time blueberries are blooming. I got a call from the grower yesterday to lock up hives for spring. She said that my hives last spring were the strongest colonies they had ever rented in the 40 years they've grown blueberries. (Bjorn... Keith aint the only one that can TOOT! TOOT! )

I find that hard to believe frankly. Maybe they've just always rented from beekeepers with poor mgmt practices I don't know. 

In my area pollen doesn't seem to be the limiting factor in the fall but NECTAR does... I bought 1500lbs of granulated sugar to make syrup with and fed it all to 54 colonies and 12 nucs in a 1:1 ration to stimulate brood rearing. ( A couple of weaker nucs got 2:1). Next year I'll be buying syrup in a tote.... I aint mixing by hand again.

Yeah I'm a small player but I'm a huge fan of building a QUALITY beekeeping business than going to fast and building a Quantity one. I get the same impression that you are a stickler for QUALITY.

I need to find out more about the nutritional requirements of my bees. That is my next goal. I have alot to learn in that area....


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## pahvantpiper (Apr 25, 2006)

A couple of questions to the almighty Keith,

Is there a down side to pushing your bees so hard? I'm in the dairy business with my brothers and dad, we milk about 4,000 cows. With cows, there's a fine line you walk between pushing cows for high milk production (feeding high protein and grains) but still feeding enough forages (alfalfa and silage) to maintain herd health. Do you burn your queens out fast, or experience some other negative?

Also, doesn't egg yolk go bad quickly? Couldn't you poison your bees if the patties get a little old? Thanks.

-Rob Bliss


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Barry, are you going to be in Sacramento at the Jan meeting?


Sorry, I can't make it. I have some situations that keep me from traveling much right now.

- Barry


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

pahvantpiper;267856]A couple of questions to the almighty Keith,

>Is there a down side to pushing your bees so hard? 

Not that I am aware of, however queen damage could be more likely due to the placing of pollen patty.


>Also, doesn't egg yolk go bad quickly? Couldn't you poison your bees if the patties get a little old? Thanks.

Citric Acid,

is used to inhibit enzymatic and trace metal-catalyzed reactions which can cause color and flavor deterioration it is often used with ascorbic acid for this purpose. The stability of frozen foods is optimized by the presence of citric acid. In oil processing to chelate trace metals which can catalyze rancidity reactions.
Citric acid is used in animal feeds to form soluble, easily digestible chelates of essential metal nutrients, enhance response to antibiotics, enhance flavor to increase food uptake, to control gastric pH and improve the efficency of the feed.


Almighty Keith


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith:

What type of citric acid? And can one use fresh egg yolks? I heard this somewhere down the line.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Dan Williamson said:


> One point that needs to be made is that most people reading this thread DON"T need to be feeding 10-20lbs per colony of pollen sub in the late summer and fall.


I agree. Here are some guidelines from the article I posted.

----
 We estimate the natural food requirement of a colony of honey bees to be 300 to 500 pounds of honey and 50 to 75 pounds of pollen a year. When bee-pasture forage is insufficient, and little or no stores are in the hive, beekeepers can feed their bees certain artificial foodstuffs to prevent them from starving and insure continued colony development.


*Why Honey Bees May Need**Supplemental Foods* Supplemental foods are fed to honey bees to supply the nutritive requirements of colonies in areas and at times when natural food sources (pollen, nectar, or honey) are inadequate or not available. The brood rearing activity and nutritional state of the colony, the quantity and quality of incoming pollen and nectar, and the food reserves in the hive will determine whether the bees need supplemental foods.

In the South, Southwest, and Southeast, where bees may continue low levels of brood rearing in the winter months, they may require more winter food reserves than colonies in the Northern United States that generally cease brood rearing in late September or October. A colony being prepared for winter in the North should have about six combs containing large areas of stored pollen. Colonies in the southern and southwestern regions may not require as much pollen because of the pollen sources that periodically become available to the bees. Colonies in all regions of the United States should have at least 60 to 90 pounds of honey in the fall.

Normal colonies can be stimulated to have larger populations by providing them with adequate supplemental foods. This feeding should be started 6 to 8 weeks in advance of when package bees or queens are to be produced. Overwintered colonies in the Northern States cap be fed supplementary foods early enough to be divided before the major nectar flow or the need for pollination service.

Colonies are usually fed supplemental foods for one or more of the following reasons:

1. To ensure continued colony development in places and times of shortage of natural pollen and nectar.

2. To develop colonies with optimum populations in time for nectar flows.

3. To develop colonies with optimum populations for pollination of crops.

4. To build up colony populations for autumn and spring division.

5. To sustain brood rearing and colony development during inclement weather.

6. To build colonies to high populations for queen and package-bee production.

7. To maintain colonies and extend the season for high drone populations for queen matings.

8. To maintain colonies in feedlot situations.

9. To build up colonies after pesticide losses.

10. To provide adequate food reserves for overwintering colonies


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well, Dan & Barry

You guys Dan & Barry must have come off the sidlines,is Bjorn by him self. 

What is not mention here is.

1) the stress factor, 
2) folks in the know, say mites, nosema, all play a part.
3) the bees that with stand these factor's, survival rate is much higher, is the one's that go into winter in the best condition.

Now, just because the pollen is coming in on there feet is NOT the same as them EATING a patty.

Right now it does not make any difference if I have 40 hives or 400 in a spot, there isn't anything coming now and won't be till Feb, where I keep bees.

Let me ask all of you this. Is your dead out rate about 5% between now and spring?


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

>>You guys Dan & Barry must have come off the sidlines,is Bjorn by him self. 

Never promised to stay there.... and Bjorn's playing over in the Mann Lake Patty game....  

My comments aren't meant to be critical in any way. They are merely to add to the discussion. Different areas and different needs dictate different management styles. I cannot and do not want too much sealed brood in place when temps can plumment. That can cause dead-outs in this area. Its not to the extreme that MountainCamp and those in higher elevations can experience but is non-the-less a concern.

>>Let me ask all of you this. Is your dead out rate about 5% between now and spring? 

Winter 04/05 lost 0% Winter 05/06 lost 0% Winter 06/07 lost 10% Prior to 04 I was out of beekeeping for while due to college, location, etc. I don't remember my rates from before.

The 10% I lost last year included a nuc that I lost due to starvation. I couldn't reach that yard with the extra feed due to deep snow and spent 2 1/2 hrs trying to dig my 4x4 out before a farmer saw me 1/4mi off the road and got me out. My fingernails turned white at the cuticle I got so cold and took 3 months to grow out to where I cut cut that part off. (I bet you don't have to deal with that where you are!) It wasn't worth the lost nuc. 100% of the full size colonies in that yard came thru winter healthy and strong.

The rest of the colonies I lost got anchored to brood. We had warm weather in fall and many colonies that were being stimulated (syrup) were raising brood later in the season than normal. We had a sudden plumment in temp that was extended and the colonies that perished were found still covering sealed brood. Plenty of pollen and honey stores around them but they wouldn't move off the brood and starved. I used all the remaining stores in splits the next spring.

I had the best survival rate of any beekeeper that I personally talked to in my area this past year. I heard of one or two others with good survival but I didn't talk to them. Many of the beekeepers in my area lost 50% and more of their colonies over winter.

The colonies I lost were all anchored to brood and were the last colonies being fed. Am I a better beekeeper than the others? I don't think so... Some of it was luck. I started feeding earlier than anyone else I talked to and I think that is what saved me from seeing the types of losses they did. Stimulation too late in the season here can be a recipe for disaster. You don't want too much brood for them to cover when temps can drop rapidly. 

So no I didn't have 5% last year but if you avg the 3 years it was less than that! 

Who knows what will happen this winter. I hope its less than the 10% I had last year but time will tell. Its still warm enough to feed right now but I am DONE. I don't want a cold snap to hit and them starve with plenty of stores around them because they are anchored to the brood.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Dan,

When asking the question of 5% loss. Back in the old days that was the norm, so when we ask our self'es what has change why is it now that 20-40 % losses does not shock anyone these days? 

Well we know that the mites and two nosema's are hitting hives hard.
That is why the new look at feeds, surcrose, is new to feeding? No, but sure has gotten a lot of press lately, Why do you think that is? Beekeepers have been feeding syrup for years, why the new buzz about one over the other now?

I think because the bees can not handle any more stress. Now syrup's and pollen sub are being talk about. Ask that question 10 years ago and not many would respond, why do you think that is?


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

Interesting thread!!........and there's Keith "snow shovel" Jarrett, and others, LOL. 
Me:...... Old "three hives" bee, will just continue to "read" on the sidelines. :


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

>>When asking the question of 5% loss. Back in the old days that was the norm, so when we ask our self'es what has change why is it now that 20-40 % losses does not shock anyone these days?d

Why does $2.25 gas look cheap now? Not long ago people would have been shocked! People get desensitized over time.

Expectations change. Rather than blame losses on poor management many people want to call it Mites, cold snaps, and now the latest and greatest CCD. The beekeeper that used to pollinate for the grower I'm supplying told them last spring he got wiped out by CCD. Yet you have commercial guys and Greg Hunt at Purdue saying that CCD doesn't appear to have impacted Indiana and that the large percentage of losses weren't likely the result of CCD but other factors.

I believe my bees died last winter as a result of THIS BEEKEEPER. Sure they died in the extended cold snap BUT they likely wouldn't have had such large areas of brood normally had I not stimulated them later than the other colonies. 100% of the other hives that WERE NOT being fed so late survived. (other than that one nuc I mentioned before).

I believe that many of the losses in Indiana this past season was the result of folks trying to feed too late. Temps were right for feeding sure... but the weather waits for no one! One guy 10 mi from me lost 50% of his 60 hives. I was done feeding other than the few I lost when he started. 

Rather than try to look for the real causes many beekeepers look for the latest headlines and use that as their excuse. You get enough of them and all the sudden... hey... 20% aint so bad.... 30%... that's normal for my area...

I'm not the worlds best beekeeper. My time may come when I have a bad winter. In fact I imagine it will happen. Maybe it will happen this winter who knows. I've done everything I know how to do up to this point. We'll see how things shake out in the spring.

I'm not quite following the rest of your points.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

PArt of wanting to feed pollen patties, at least for us, is that we would like to have stronger coolonies going into the winter and also hopefully have booming colonies come spring time. I have never fed pollen patties before and am interested in seeing the results. I also have never fed granulated sugar or drivert sugar either but will try this season.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Dan Williamson;267994I'm not quite following the rest of your points.[/QUOTE said:


> Well Dan,
> I was trying stop the bus and get out for a moment and smell the flowers.
> 
> I like to talk to old timers and here how they use to keep bees.
> ...


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Keith: If you were not going to Calif for the almonds and just wanted to get your numbers up, would you recomend pollen feeding in the fall time as well?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

You really want to ask a guy who lives 1000 miles south of you what is good for your bees? Nothing against Keith, but there are so many variables that this question deserves more than where you're getting the advise from. Unless of course he tells you about the same thing I'm telling you.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Barry:

You can apply that statement TO ANY question thaty is asked on this board. It is a simple question. 

I should restate the question... if you were not going to the almonds but wanted to get your numbers up, would you be feeding pollen patties in the fall?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Let me ask all of you this. Is your dead out rate about 5% between now and spring?


The nature of this question infers that you attribute a 5% perish rate directly to feeding substitute. That's pretty bold. I remember Dennis Murrell telling me some years ago that his experience in commercial beekeeping was you would get about a 10% attrition rate no matter what you did on the managing side. I've found that to be true for myself. I never fed seasonally, never re-queened with purchased queens. When I did, the hives became out of balance. I get plenty of pollen in the hives naturally. I take a hands off approach to beekeeping and do as little messing around as possible. I want bees that don't need my added this and that. That is what I call biological beekeeping.

You have very different goals and needs. You managed your bees with this in mind. It works for you, but I get concerned when a bunch of people want to adopt another's management style and think this is what they should do for whatever reason. As Dee has always said, "follow the bees", they will tell you what their need is.

Regards,
Barry


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Chef Isaac said:


> I should restate the question... if you were not going to the almonds but wanted to get your numbers up, would you be feeding pollen patties in the fall?


I guess it sounded to me you were asking him about recommendations for your bees. If not, I see the value of simply asking him if he would still feed substitute if he didn't do almonds. Sorry.

Keith?


- Barry


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Barry:

It is not a question like "Should I do this or that". It is more of a "if you are looking for x result, would this work?" type of question. 

Simply put, we would like to increase our numbers to make splits in the spring. The idea of feeding pollen in the fall.. is it worth it or not to achieve these results? Of course there are variables here, sure. But like I said, that statemnet can be applied to any questions on this board.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Barry said:


> You really want to ask a guy who lives 1000 miles south of you what is good for your bees? Nothing against Keith, but there are so many variables that this question deserves more than where you're getting the advise from. Unless of course he tells you about the same thing I'm telling you.


Agree!

I also agree that Keith and the other almond pollinators need to feed. If they want to pocket $150 a hive in February, they need numbers then.

Personally I don't want those numbers in February!


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I think your misunderstanding the point of the question. I am not talking about feeding large asmounts of pollen like Keith does. I am talking about the point of feeding pollen in fall to achieve booming colonies in March/April.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Chef Isaac said:


> Of course there are variables here, sure. But like I said, that statemnet can be applied to any questions on this board.


And my response is, perhaps it should be applied a lot more than it is on this board. Look at Dan's situation and the particular problem he easily has with too much pollen. What works for Keith in his location and style of beekeeping may be the worst thing you could do given your set of particulars.

Regards,
Barry


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I would have to agree. However, any answers to the questions are food for thought.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Chef Isaac said:


> I think your misunderstanding the point of the question. I am not talking about feeding large asmounts of pollen like Keith does. I am talking about the point of feeding pollen in fall to achieve booming colonies in March/April.


Could it be you're missing the point?  or at least my point?
For anyone to give you "sound" advise about what you should do to get the desired results of splitting in the spring really depends on a lot of factors that are unique to your managing style and location. How would Keith know those things unless of course he is familiar with the Northwest and your style.

That's all I'm trying to point out.

- Barry


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Barry:

You might have a point there. The key word would be "sound" advice, which, even for local around someones area should be taken with a grain of salt. 

You know, I am tired of buying packages and nucs, especially packages. Love nucs over packages. And I do not move my bees to pollinate so this year, we are feeding more in the fall and also feeding pollen patties with the hopes that our colonies will not starve (hence the sugar) and be able to build up quicker in early spring. 

Nice to see you around the boards, Barry!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Barry wrote,
The nature of this question infers that you attribute a 5% perish rate directly to feeding substitute. That's pretty bold.

I dont beleive that I said my loss was 5%. What I was asking was ,if this 5% use to be the norm what are we doing so different now than before?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Chef Isaac said:


> Nice to see you around the boards, Barry!


I miss not having the time I'd like to participate more. Just doing all the admin stuff takes most of what time I have. I decided to spend the evening on the board since my wife took off on a retreat this weekend. 

- Barry


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I like those times when the wife leaves for even a few hours  

(dont tell her that thought  )


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Keith Jarrett said:


> if this 5% use to be the norm what are we doing so different now than before?


Ahh! Okay.

My answer will come down on the side of "too much." I started the BIOBEE email list years ago in part as a means to answer this. Having spent a lot of time communicating with Ed and Dee Lusby, Dennis Murrell (ex-commercial guy), Erik Osterlund and others, I believe "our" ways of management are catching up with us. Business as usual, especially for the commercial guy I'm afraid, won't cut it much longer. You could get me really going on this one, but much has already been discussed on that list and continues now on the biological beekeeping forum. Unfortunately, I just don't have the time anymore to give in postings like I use to have.

For some entertaining reading, you can always look at the partial archives:

http://www.beesource.com/bee-l/bioarchive/index.htm

- Barry


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well Barry,

I try to run that style to some degree.
I only move to three locations a year. I go threw and requeen once a year. Feed pollen... well, we will skip that one.  

I dont run bees very hard but they don't look like they did in the 80's and they dont make honey like they use too.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Not going to answer my question, Keith?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> Not going to answer my question, Keith?


Oh, you know Chef, Im just listening here,

Funny thing, Talked to Mike, Parker S.Dakota, John, Fargo N Dakota, Tim, Montana and last but not least Clyde in Nebraska

Avg brood 0-two frames this was all in the last two days.

Well Chef, I know some up there your way, use to go up there myself in my younger days, I think I'm going to see how Bjorn doing over on the side lines.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well Barry,
> 
> I try to run that style to some degree.
> I only move to three locations a year. I go threw and requeen once a year. Feed pollen... well, we will skip that one.
> ...


Keith,

I requeen every year myself. I find that mid-August in my area is the best time to requeen as the young queen has about 2 months to establish her own brood nest and really get a nice batch of young for the winter. 

In your area, when do you find requeening to be optimal? Do you use cells or laying queens? Just curious how a much larger operation does this.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Dan Williamson said:


> Keith,
> In your area, when do you find requeening to be optimal? Do you use cells or laying queens? Just curious how a much larger operation does this.


Well Dan, I requeen in May, not because it's optimal but because I have time then. I also make up D/O at the same time.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well Dan, I requeen in May, not because it's optimal but because I have time then. I also make up D/O at the same time.


Help me out... D/O?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Dead out's


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Dead out's


Thanks. My brain is a little slow this morning!


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