# How much space do bees need?



## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

I'm looking at a 10 gallon tank that I have here in the room with me. It's appears to be about the right size for a standard deep frame to fit in and about 5 frames. If that's the case it would work and would be a good size to work with that a colony would thrive well in. Produce multiple swarms I'm sure.

20 gallon would be the next standard size tank. So I'm not sure what your plans are or what size you have? I see somewhat of a problem in accomplishing what I believe you want which is observing the colony closely building up to the point of swarming. A hive in that configuration is only going to allow you observable access to the ends of the frames and the outside of the frames on each side. There isn't likely going to be anything but honey on the outside and lots of bees covering the ends of the frames where the brood is at. So observation is going to be extremely restricted.

I don't know that I have ever heard of anyone installing a red light of any kind in a hive actually. But if it's something you put a switch on, I don't see why it wouldn't work. I've talked to a few people that use a red head lamp for installing packages after dark and they claim that the light doesn't arouse the bees at all. I think if I were to put a light in a O hive, I would make use of an LED(s) to get maximum lighting with minimal heat output. They are cheap and easy enough to get these days.

I've been an aquarium buff for many years keeping salt water. I have to say, even though I don't think you may like the results of a tank full of bees, it still has an appeal to it. Just because we beeks are wierd that way! 

Don't let me discourage you though!! I'm just thinking out loud. It's all good! Have fun and good luck with your project!! You never know where it might lead you?

Just don't have us seeing the 6 o'clock news "*Man knocks over aquarium full of bees in living room, family runs screaming out of house*"


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I have actually been thinking about using an aquarium as a TBH as well, but have since decided that I am going to put a plexi-glass door into the wall of my shop and use the stud space as an OB hive so I can observe a feral colony.

I have no plans to interfere at all, I am just going to keep records of deadouts, reestablishments, Queen rearing, mite, SHB, and wax moth sittings etc. I am also planning on keeping records on honey crop based on square inches of capped comb. I plan to have a hive ready to go for swarm collection as I believe I should beable to tell when and if it is going to throw a swarm.

I abandoned the aquarium idea becaus it would have to be inside the house to keep it from melting down in the summer.... With top bars I could not think of any easy ways to vent and put an entrance in without cutting glass.


----------



## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Unless you order a tank pre-drilled, you can't drill holes in them. All the tanks now are made from tempered glass. The entrance would have to be built into the top.


----------



## michaelaao (Jan 16, 2009)

This was just an idea that hit me while I was showering yesterday, have not thought it all out yet. I don’t have a particular tank in mind but I love garage sales and I see them all the time for just a couple bucks. Thought I would first figure out what size I need and then go out and get one. You think 10 gallons would be enough? That would be great. Small enough to unhook from the tube and carry outside to do any work on it.

I doubt I will be able to see what I envision in my head seeing. They may just cover all the glass and I won’t be able to see a thing. Maybe they will build a little stage and put on a musical for me. Probably something in between the two.

Not sure what LED (s) lights are. Aren’t they like the little Christmas lights the kids use to decorate their cars? Might be kinda cool to have a string of them running through the middle.

Bluegrass: I am thinking about the wall space thing too. I thought about plexi-glass but that stuff scratches up so much. I’m thinking of getting a rear window from one of those little pick-up trucks at the junkyard. 

I have a little 8 x 10 room here in the back of the house so I was going the keep them back there. 

I thought glass could be drilled with a high speed diamond drill. This can’t be done with tempered glass?

This very well could be a disaster just waiting to happen but I can’t imagine anything worse then getting some stings, having to spend a couple days in a hotel and having to clean up a mess. Who knows, maybe I could get on Letterman for stupid human stunts. 

Thanks again,

Michael


----------



## Nicole (Jan 7, 2009)

Bizzybee said:


> Unless you order a tank pre-drilled, you can't drill holes in them. All the tanks now are made from tempered glass. The entrance would have to be built into the top.





michaelaao said:


> I thought glass could be drilled with a high speed diamond drill. This can’t be done with tempered glass?


Tempered glass cannot be drilled without shattering into a zillion little bits. Luckily, most aquariums nowadays are built with only tempered bottoms. The side walls can be drilled very carefully with a diamond-coated bit and water running over the drill site as you cut. Aquariums with tempered bottoms usually come with a sticker or label to indicate that the bottom pane cannot be drilled.


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I haven't ever found an aquarium with thempered glass in it. I pick them up off of the curb and salvage the glass out of them. If you do end up with one with tempered glass in it you could cut the panel out you want drilled and replace it with plate glass.


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi,
I also have a 300 reef tank.
Acrylic would give you so many more options. You could put in a screen bottom, Drill holes to put in tank fittings with valves to open & close the race way. That way you could carry it outdoors. 
Basically glue on any acrylic option you can imagine.

I believe most modern glass aquariums are tempered & can't be drilled.


----------



## michaelaao (Jan 16, 2009)

Great input people, but any other opinions on the original question? Every one agree on the 10 gallon size?

Thanks, Michael


----------



## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Believe me, most tanks you're going to get will be tempered. 

Here's how to drill tempered glass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvRgklsm6so

Acrylic makes a beautiful aquarium. Very expensive compared to glass! But used in an application like this wouldn't be useful very long. It's soft and would scratch unbelievably bad trying to keep it cleaned from bee gunk. It wouldn't be very long I suspect before it was hazed over so bad any viewing wouldn't be much fun. Unlike a conventional o-hive the panels can't be removed for cleaning or be replaced. There's no way I would spend the bucks on an acrylic tank to put bees in unless you could find a busted one somewhere cheap.

I just checked a ten gallon tank I have. Looks like it will hold about 6 deep frames. About 2-1/2" dead space below the frames if they were resting on the tank rim. But they are just a bit short. There would have to be a top rim built to replace the existing for frames to rest on as well as a means to get a cover on it. There's going to be to much space at the end bars and will probably require custom frames to close up the gap or the bees are going to fill it.

As far as size goes, that would be fine to sustain a healthy colony in. There are some 15, 18, 20 and 25's out there. Prices don't get crazy until you pass 55 gallons. If your going to be building custom equipment for them, I guess any size you wish would be fine. But as they get past 20 the depth increases. Since you are going to need to build a rim/frame rest for the tank, build it with the intention of accommodating an entrance in it instead of the top or attempting to drill the glass.

Good Luck!!


----------



## michaelaao (Jan 16, 2009)

Thanks Bizz for the link, guess if I'm going to drill it will be untempered glass. I agree with you on the acrylic thing.

Michael


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

this one is more usefull...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uigdnhUsns&feature=related

and this is just funny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lK_B_nhRVU&feature=related


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

*back on topic now...*

The easy solution is to remove the frame from the bottom of the tank and cut the bottom pain out and build a bb to fit the tank. then put your top bars in and your done.


----------



## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

This idea gets a good grade for originality, but I fear it wouldn't fare so well for observation or efficiency. A few problems here that would be so much better addressed by using a standard observation (one of the goals) hive.

-Dimensions off. Really off. Not so bad though if you're gonna treat it as a top-bar hive.

-Difficult to situate entrances. Can possibly be overcome with drilling...possibly.

-Bees like dark dry areas to establish a hive. You'd probably want to build a case for around it to provide darkness whenever you're not observing it. No biggie, could be added. 

-Most observation hives are not very deep front to back - many of the ones I've seen are one frame thick, and this is for a reason. Look at your regular hives. You most likely do not see laying/brood reasing activity on the outside frames. As mentioned previously, this is what you're going to see in your tank hive. Evrything that you want to see (brood rearing, swarm cells, queen activity) will all be on the inside where it can's be observed. With an observation hive, the front and the back of the frames are visible, allowing you to see everything that's going on. This is probably much more in line with your goals.

-Swarm management - less space in an obs hive, and more visible area again. An obs hive might swarm (another of your goals) more quickly than your tank hive, especially if it was fed, and you'd get to see everything that happens. I just think you'd get more of what you're looking for this way.

As I think about this, I sound like a party-pooper, even to myself - not what I wanted, but I think that a nice observation hive properly designed, would service your needs and goals much better, and you'd enjoy the investment much more. I think it was DRobbins or one of the other fellows who mentioned the BTV - a nice idea and something that you'll learn a lot from and get a lot of enjoyment from. The tank hive just brings a lot of thought about moisture and too makny places to hide - and doesn't sound as 'observable' after the fact.

Good luck though, and if you do build it please post some pics - it'd be great to see them.


----------



## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

I don't know how much you will actually see using an aquarium, since the interesting stuff happens on the surface of the brood frames, and they will be hidden. Basically all you will see is the outside of the cluster and bees coming and going, plus whatever falls down.

Observation hives are built the way they are, with the surfaces of each frame exposed, so that you can actually see the activity. Some of them rotate on a vertical axis so you can see both sides without having to go around.

Observation hives can have quite a few combs stacked vertically and sometimes horizontally as well, and bees seem to do quite well in them, although smaller ones need to be boosted from time to time with frames of brood and/or bees. Wintering can be a problem, since room temperatures are too high in temperate zones.

There a number of sites which feature observation hives and a search should turn up some possibilities. I have one at honeybeeworld.com. but have not updated it for years, so it is far out of date. Maybe people will post some URLs here if they have not already. 

Observation hives have always fascinated people, and beekeepers have been quite imaginative, designing hives that are simple and easy to build, right up to highly elaborate and commercial models. 

There are a lot of things to consider, when starting out like the way bees come and go, ventillation, and removal of dead bees, as well as ways to feed and change frames, light and heat levels, and whether to cover the glass when not viewing.

My personal opinion is that an aquarium makes a good aquarium, but a poor observation hive compared to a properly designed and built observation hive.


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Hard to let bees act feral in a regular ob hive. I think the point of this project is not having an observation hive as it is having a feral colony that can be observed. the point is to let them do what they do without guiding them on bee space, comb direction etc...


----------



## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

bluegrass said:


> Hard to let bees act feral in a regular ob hive. I think the point of this project is not having an observation hive as it is having a feral colony that can be observed. the point is to let them do what they do without guiding them on bee space, comb direction etc...


I see. If that is the case, I suppose one should point out that it is impossible not to have some influence, since no matter what cavity is given to them, unless they swarm into it (and in the case of an aquarium that might take a long time) the shape, materials, entrances and ventilation chosen are obviously not going to be under their control. Moreover, after all that effort, not much can be observed.

On the other hand, in keeping with the goal of minimizing influence, and recognising that some compromises will have to be made, perhaps imitating one of the honey bees' favourite cavities -- the empty space in home walls -- might be more useful to both bees and observers. 

A box several feet high, 14-1/2" wide and 3-1/2 to 4" thick made of glass on the sides and wood on the top, bottom and ends would simulate that very popular bee nesting cavity and also provide good observation opportunities. I had one like that about thirty years ago. it worked OK and was simple to build and maintain.

With any luck the bees will build straight across the space or at an angle, in which case you can see pretty much into the centre. I've seen both. Sometimes, though, they may decide to build a huge flat comb or two lengthwise obscuring much of the most interesting parts of the comb in the second instance, but in any case, such a hive would be much more fun and observable for the owner than a fish tank hive -- IMO. If you are willing to give some guidance by sticking in a small piece of starter comb you can influence their choice of comb direction. If not, you take your chances. One small piece stuck to the top is all that is needed. No top bars are required. Ventillation holes will be very important if you expect to let them get crowded, or they will stand out and also comb will melt.

Such a hive can also be accessed at the bottom for cleaning out if necessary, and usually some screened vent holes are provided top and bottom since the entrance is not likely to allow enough air.


----------



## michaelaao (Jan 16, 2009)

As I said in my first post I am new here. I didn’t know what to expect when I posted my original question. This is a pleasant surprise. Lot of response, well thought out responses, intelligent responses, useful responses. Thank you all, this is a nice and eager forum. But the question remains; what is the minimum size space a colony needs to be able to sustain themselves and to produce a swarm? A cubic foot? 2 cubic ft?

Thanks, Michael


----------



## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

Baby nucs have been known to swarm, and they can get crowded to the point of hanging out, so there is no minimum size. The swarming impulse depends on a number of things: age of queen, breed of bee, season, crowding, ventillation, flow conditions, amount of brood and age distribution, and more...

As well as cavity size the number of bees you begin with will have a direct influence. Add enough and they will swarm early, too few and they may never swarm. In our region (Alberta) most swarms issue in May, June and July. After that, you can crowd all you like and they will seldom swarm. Late June is your best bet IMO.

I don't know where you plan to get the starter bees, but you will need to begin at least six weeks before the target date IMO to be reasonably likley to get the results you seek. Newly established hives and those with young queens are comparatively unlikley to swarm, bujt as Pooh says, "You never can tell wirh bees...".


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Another option would be to put glass windows in a nuc box.


----------



## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

I have not read all the other posts here, but just got this info in an email, that might be helpful. Email was from the president of the NW PA Beekeepers assoc. who had just attended the farm show in Harrisburg. The PSBA (PA State) had a booth there. Charlie writes:

> We had two observation hives. A local
> beekeeper set up an observation hive to a large aquarium. The
> aquarium was on end, with a screen where the top would be. The bees
> could leave the hive via plastic tube to the fly space. He had live
> grass in the bottom and artificial vines in the back. It worked
> perfectly. Bees would fly and walk the aquarium all day and return
> via the tube. (The glass got a bit crapped up) Every night all the
> bees would be back in the hive. The bees in the hive were always calm
> and the queen could be seen laying eggs constantly. I am trying to
> find out what happens when this hive of new brood went home at the end
> of the week.


Thought this might give a few ideas.


----------



## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

Sounds like an interesting and attractive display.

> and the queen could be seen laying eggs constantly.

That I wonder about, unless a swarm of bees was dumped in and only a single comb or two had been built to this point, so the brood surfaces are exposed.

Seeing as the aquariumis described as a 'large', I am assuming that this colony simulates a open nest such as an undecided swarm sometimes builds under eaves or on a tree branch, and the aquarium was not used as a cavity (hive) so much as a cage to confine the bee activity.

Sounds as if the beekeeper managing the display was quite experienced and knowledgeable -- or lucky -- since there are quite a few considerations involved in ensuring the bees find and use the entrance, etc.

Would this colony swarm? Hard to say. From the description, it sounds as if the aquarium is sufficiently large that the bees are not likely to fill it, so crowding would not be the stimulus.

Pictures of this setup would be very interesting.


----------



## michaelaao (Jan 16, 2009)

There is a trick to asking questions here isn’t there? Seems I asked this one all backwards. Be patient, I’ll get it right yet. 

When a swarm of bees, if left alone to find their own space for a hive, what is the minimum size they will accept for their new home?

Michael


----------



## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

*size*



michaelaao said:


> There is a trick to asking questions here isn’t there? Seems I asked this one all backwards. Be patient, I’ll get it right yet.
> 
> When a swarm of bees, if left alone to find their own space for a hive, what is the minimum size they will accept for their new home?
> 
> Michael


you got no answere 'cause there aint none. it is dependant on the race of bee, the genetics of that particular swarm, the lenght of time the swarm has been searching, the climate in that area, the time of year...


----------

