# Wintering with a top bar



## SuiGeneris (Feb 13, 2018)

I am a brand-new beekeeper trying to decide how to grow my apiary. I will be receiving my first nuc later this spring, and have bought a basic langstroth hive for that colony. My plan is to attempt to catch a swarm (or two) this year as well, in order to build my apiary (and to overcome my idiotic decision to buy only only hive). I've been thinking - assuming the swarm trapping is successful - of trying a top-bar hive approach with the second colony. For me, there are a lot of attractions to the top-bar, including the lack of heavy lifting (I have intermittent back issues) and the ability to build my own hive. That, and the chance to experiment with a different style of bee keeping, is quite attractive.

My concern is that many of the resources I have read suggest that top-bar hives have difficulty surviving cold winters. I am in Canada, and even though I'm in one of the more temperate regions, we still get long periods of cold. For example, this year we had nearly a month where temperatures never got above -15C (5 F), and we were frequently below -20C (-5 F), "peaking" at -32C (-26 F). To make matters worse, I'm just south of lake huron, which means we get near-hurricane force winds out of the north which cut right through the trees - even with windbreaks, its almost impossible to prevent eddies of cold air from reaching hives.

My mentor (and other locals I've met) all use langstroths, and use a combination of insulation, wraps, windbreaks, and winter tops to get their hives through winter. Only one person I've talked to locally has tried a top-bar, and theirs didn't make it through the first winter.

So my question is probably obvious at this point - is there any reasonable way to insulate a top-bar to give the bee's a chance of making it through winter? Most of the "winterizatoin" approaches I've seen involve adding some insulation in the roof area, and adding a bit of insulation to the sides. Is that enough? Has anyone here had success in similar conditions?

Thanks

Bryan


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

SuiGeneris said:


> .......
> Thanks
> Bryan


Bee hives mimic human buildings in many ways; this includes their energy efficiency.

Look at the energy efficiency of the building shapes: 
https://sites.google.com/site/lowenergyhome/architectur

Does the top bar hive fit any of the most energy efficient shapes?
The answer is - no.

TBH has one of the *least *energy efficient shapes.
May not matter in CA, TX or FL.
Does matter in colder climates.


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## SuiGeneris (Feb 13, 2018)

Drat! I figured that would be the case, but I wanted to see if anyone had found a viable work-around.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

SuiGeneris said:


> Drat! I figured that would be the case, but I wanted to see if anyone had found a viable work-around.


Look back at that picture.
Anything that approaches cub or cuboid should be fine (vertical or deep horizontal).
Skep is even better - a dome. 
It is just no one figured out they way to modernize the skeps yet. Some people keep skeps as-is.


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## SuiGeneris (Feb 13, 2018)

But a top-bar that is cuboidal is, effectively, a Warre hive...which comes with all of the need for extremely accurate construction and back-breaking lifting I'm hoping to avoid. The Layens-style horizontal hive is not something I had come across until today...it may be an option but I need to read a little more.

Thanks again

B


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Michael Bush said:


> Dennis Murrel has them where it gets -40 C (-40 F) and they have done well. The main argument seems to be the fallacy that bees cannot move horizontally. Yet horizontal hives are the traditional hives in all of Scandinavia and Russia.


Here are some KTBHs up north https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tKkh3_Oq4c
http://journal.eriksjodin.net/2016/01/top-bar-bee-hives/

bees don't heat the cavity, they heat the cluster (of corse the culster looses heat to the air around it)
ever notice there is no talk of winter mositue issues with KTBH useres and constant chatter with langs? 

Heat rises. in a packed out lang the culster is on the bottom with plenty of store above, the heat is rizeing away up in to the dead space, the moisture condenses and drips back down on the cluster
In a KTBH the bees are right there by the bar so their liveing were the warm air is , the heat has to flow side ways so if there is condensation it happes away form the culster
add in the often thicker ruff lumber used for the sides and the thickness of the topbars vs the thin lang roof..
toss a chunk of foam over the topbars 

that being said a KTBH is not the soustion to the one hive problem... the difference in the equipment takes most of the advantages of 2 hives away.




> But a top-bar that is cuboidal is, effectively, a Warre hive...which comes with all of the need for extremely accurate construction and back-breaking lifting I'm hoping to avoid


Nope
http://www.beeculture.com/sam-comfort/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tN90jDml44
Sam Comfort's Americanized shallow Warres are ruff lumber and unlike a KTBH its easy to build with just a hand saw and hammer. They come in at about the equivalent of 4 deep frames, hardly back breaking, espicaly if you toss out the Warre dogma and supper them.


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## Broglea (Jul 2, 2013)

TBH and horizontal hives are not any better or worse than traditional hives for the bees to keep warm. There are arguments to be made on both sides. My horizontal hives overwinter just fine. When I did run TBH they overwintered fine as well. My advice is to try it for yourself and draw your own conclusions.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I believe that most people forget one major problem with all beehives. The door is always open! How warm will the inside of any beehive stay with the door open? My top bar hives do fine in the winter and the key is to be sure it has one opening on one side of the hive only. Do not allow any cross breezes to blow through the hive. If you are still concerned about heat loss, put insulation on the top of the top bars and on the sides of the hive for the winter. The hive cover will protect the insulation. If you are building the hive yourself, and I do recommend doing that, use thicker wood or double up the sidewalls of the hive.


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

Started out ten years ago with two home made top bar hives. Used 2x lumber. Today we have 126 hives of 6 different configurations. Top bars, langs, long langs, warre's, etc. The horizontals overwinter just as well as the verticals. No difference. -27F this morning and 20" of snow on the ground. Haven't seen a bee since Dec. but they will be flying the first warm day. It's not the hive, it's the management.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I'm in rather balmy Virginia (not TX, CA or FL) and my TBHs do just fine. My winter prep usually consists of putting a strap across the top since I may be gone for a while in the winter and may miss the tops being blown away. I use 3/4 inch pine, and I don't put insulation across the top bars or any of that. We hit the single digits several days this year, but nothing compared to Canada. But I've also got 5 frame medium boxes to overwinter down here. You may be surprised at how well they do.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> ..
> 
> 
> > Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
> ...


Michael Bush fails to note here that all the horizontal hives in Scandinavia and Russia are *deep*. 
Dadant deep frame and *deeper*. 
Big difference. Big frames.

With such deep frames you normally create "hive inside hive" for the winter using insulated end boards (only about 1/2-1/3 of the hive is used; the rest is empty)
Essentially, you create *cubic living space* for the bees. 
Typically, you winter on 5-8 deep frames. That's is the entire setup.
Any frames not covered by bees are just removed. Since the frames are large, there is no need for any horizontal traverse.
This is a common way to winter in deep horizontals.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Bees survive winter fine in an upright tree cavity, and just as well in a downed log (assuming they moved in after it fell!). I have Tanzanian horizontal top bar hives, so they are as wide and deep as a Lang box, but they continue for 25-30 frames of length. I use bars though, not frames. I used 2x lumber as well, and I think it makes it easier for the bees to just heat the area around them, and have that heat stay put by them, and not leak out. I can't quantify that yet - at some point I'll have some sensors in the hives! This is my 2nd winter, and I have 3/6 alive so far. the 3 losses were to mites, based on the mite count of the dead bees when I did an alcohol wash. And the fall mite counts too - I knew I was going to lose some, but I'm still on the learning curve. 

New beekeepers using Langs and using best practices lose about 1/2 or more of their hives, in many clubs. A top bar hive is more at risk because it is harder to prevent swarming, and it is essential to prevent it your hive's first year. The hive needs the beepower to make enough comb to store enough honey come fall.

One of the biggest challenges I am having is losing bees to mite overload. I am using Oxalic Acid Vaporization, and it's not magic fairy dust. ;( really the airflow for a long space is not working well to disperse the vapors enough. I am converting to screened bottoms for the top bars this year, so I highly recommend starting that way.

A thought for you if you are doing top bar for weight reasons - it is possible to do medium 8 frames, they are 45 lbs or so full of honey. Used as brood chamber by the bees, the box should be lighter! I am going to try Dadant deeps - just one - sort of a Langstoth jumbo - for the brood chamber. I want to only go through 10 frames for inspecting the brood chamber. 

it's interesting to have both types of hives, upright with frames and top bar, and see how different inspections are. And how different the bees act when you open their "roof" like with a Lang vs opening a "side" like with a top bar. 

I get so much info about the state of the hive when I inspect, and each year I get faster at accurately interpreting how they are doing! One thing I am noticing is that I need have the option to open the brood area OR the back, the honey area, first when inspecting. I'm redesigning my hives so I can open by the brood without pulling bars across the hive entrance. I'll have a dummy bar that I can remove, creating space so I can see the first bar and snip attachments. Also their entrance will be towards the narrow end but on the long side, not the narrow side. 

I do reliably have attachments between the side of the hive and the comb that are created when it's a nectar flow or a new bar. They do give up eventually about attachments! as the bar gets older. I have used a j-tool (beekeeping tool) to cut through attachments - always pull up! and you should think about what you will use for attachment removal. You have to pull up HARD to cut through their wax. It's tougher than you would expect!

One more thing - you will certainly be able to make a split with your nuc this summer. Look into how you can make a shook swarm and into where to get a good local queen - and if you put a foundationless frame in your Lang, you can cut that drawn comb out and "tie" it to a bar, so there is 1 comb to get you started. Doing a split with natural queen rearing is riskier, because sometimes the virgin doesn't return from her mating flight. If you have 1 hive to begin, I recommend going the route with the fewest uncertainties this year, and purchasing a queen for your homemade shook swarm. Good luck!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

TNTBEES said:


> ..It's not the hive, it's the management.


I'd be interested to hear the details.
Any pictures to look at?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is a video of wintering on Dadant-based horizontal hive.
Entire insulation - a tarp thrown on the top. 
With large frames you can do this. 
But with the TBs you can do just the same. 
About 20-30 % of my frames are just ad-hoc top bars I stapled together as I needed them (never enough frames or time).

Skip the beginning and jump to 2:30 and watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLukbRr2AoY


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## SuiGeneris (Feb 13, 2018)

TNTBEES said:


> Started out ten years ago with two home made top bar hives. Used 2x lumber. Today we have 126 hives of 6 different configurations. Top bars, langs, long langs, warre's, etc. The horizontals overwinter just as well as the verticals. No difference. -27F this morning and 20" of snow on the ground. Haven't seen a bee since Dec. but they will be flying the first warm day. It's not the hive, it's the management.


That's good to hear - I grew up just north of you, in Alberta, so I know well the kinds of winters you get. Colder and longer than here, although we don't get those nice chinooks to breakup our cold spells. By "2x lumber" I assume you mean the walls are two boards thick (i.e. double-walled) - is that correct? Assuming I got that right, do you leave an air-gap between walls, or are the pieces tight together?

If you don't mind me asking, exactly what do you do to winterize your top-bars? Entrance reducers? Extra insulation above the bars? Closing off "deadspace" inside? Or just the 2x lumber?



trishbookworm said:


> A thought for you if you are doing top bar for weight reasons - it is possible to do medium 8 frames, they are 45 lbs or so full of honey.


My issue is less one of weight, and more one of lifting from a crouch and bending over. I suffer from back spasms, so sometimes simply bending over to tie a shoe is difficult. I've built a taller-than-normal base for my langs for this reason (plus it supposedly helps with skunks), although if I end up with 3 supers I may have a bit of "fun" dealing with the top one.



trishbookworm said:


> One of the biggest challenges I am having is losing bees to mite overload. I am using Oxalic Acid Vaporization, and it's not magic fairy dust. ;( really the airflow for a long space is not working well to disperse the vapors enough. I am converting to screened bottoms for the top bars this year, so I highly recommend starting that way.


I was planning on using apivar strips for mite control - that is what's been recommended to me by several local beekeepers...do you think that may work better? For the screened bottoms, I've seen a few designs which allow it to be covered up in winter - is that your plan?



trishbookworm said:


> you will certainly be able to make a split with your nuc this summer. Look into how you can make a shook swarm and into where to get a good local queen


This has been the plan, assuming I don't screw up and do something stupid like let the hive swarm. I was planning on going with a lang for the split, and splitting lang-to-lang seems relatively easy. And for the price of a queen, I think buying one is worth it; on the scale of buying (or even building) a second lang setup - or even top-bar - a queen is pretty much a rounding error on the final bill.

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Bryan


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

SuiGeneris said:


> . By "2x lumber" I assume you mean the walls are two boards thick (i.e. double-walled) - is that correct? ..


Pretty this means 2x dimensional lumber (2x4, 2x6, 2x8, etc - US sizing).
I use the same.


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## SuiGeneris (Feb 13, 2018)

Ahh, 2" thick lumber...makes sense, and far easier than double-walling things.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

SuiGeneris said:


> Ahh, 2" thick lumber...makes sense, and far easier than double-walling things.


No need to double-wall.. 
One reason I use 2" lumber - it is free and is all over the place. 
Just pick it up. 
People are tossing it right and left.
Yes - hives turn a bit heavy, but this is fine for the horizontals and better for the bees (you don't need to toss about supers all day long anyhow).


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Bees have to crawl over the apivar strips for them to work. It is great for between a top and bottom Lang deep that houses the brood. I'm not sure how to implement it in a TBH. There aren't areas that all the bees walk through, in the same way that the division between the top and bottom box is for a Lang. So, I am not confident that enough bees would walk over the Apivar.

Also I am not interested in using Apivar because the honey that is produced or accessed during this time is then tainted by Apivar, somehow. And that's a chemical that affects ME. Oxalic acid is in spinach. By eating a big bowl, I get 1 g of Oxalic acid. Seriously, look it up!!! So I don't sweat using OAV (2 g total) over the whole hive. Especially when I am harvesting only capped honey.  

I have heard of people using MAQS strips in a top bar hive - they put the strips on the bottom. those only work when it is warm outside, so not in the spring. 

Apivar is GREAT in the spring, if you can figure out how to get enough bees to physically walk over it, and if you aren't trying to get spring honey.  or not worried about potentially accidentally consuming honey that was exposed to Apivar. I regularly harvest brood comb honey from deadouts - not all but some. For the most part I prefer to feed the deadout brood comb honey back to future splits.


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## SuiGeneris (Feb 13, 2018)

Trish, I'm a medical researcher, so I don't need to look up oxalic acid. But just because it is "natural" doesn't mean its more safe. In fact, oxalic acid is something you should limit in your diet (especially as you pass middle age) as it the most common cause of kidney stones and can cause other issue with things such as mineral absorption (i.e. contributes to issues such as osteoarthritis, ostiopoiesis). Apivar (Amitraz) has well well established safety profile that is pretty much on-par with oxalic acid in terms of toxicity, and unlike oxalic acid, doesn't have the potential to bioaccumulate. 

Ironically, oxalic acid is also more toxic to bees than apivar: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28783129

Not saying that using oxalic acid is wrong; only that it isn't necessarily a safer option than human-derived products.

As for top-bars, I'm still on the fence. I picked up a better tablesaw at a garage sale this weekend, so assuming I can fix the motor, more langs may be in the future.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Incidentally, I was looking around for TBs in cold climates and found this very good website (via Michael Bush's reference).
A great site and many interesting topics (a couple of links below).
Before doing more Langs, I say read this blog (originates in WY, US; that's plenty cold).

Interestingly, the author ended up developing vertical TBHs for his colder climate. 
At this rate, my deep horizontal rigs looking good and are very close to his vertical TBH or deep multi-purpose TBH.

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/vertical-tbh/
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/multipurpose-top-bar-hive/


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## nickhefferan (Jul 26, 2018)

I'm very interested in the Layens design for winter-survivability. Hopefully I'll get one or two of those made soon.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

nickhefferan said:


> I'm very interested in the Layens design for winter-survivability. Hopefully I'll get one or two of those made soon.


Join the club!
I highly recommend "matts layens" youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=matts+layens

Matt is trying out things I do not have time to try myself.
Several times now I suggested things and Matt just did them and it is great to look a the things from aside "live".


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