# Upper entrances, nature and IPM



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have been investigating more of the natural ways of keeping bees and came across an article about how bees want to keep an upper entrance rather than a bottom one. This defies the standard hive design straight off. A bottom entrance makes drafts in the brood chamber making it harder for the bees to keep a constant temp and humidity. An experiment was done (you can find it on the main Beesource page all the way at the bottom, then an article about "honey excluders") anyway they found that the upper entrance hives made lots of honey and the brood chamber was kept below with the queen not ever being limited by honey in the brood chamber. The honey supers could be extra ventilated for maximum production while keeping the brood chamber ventilated to a minimum for constant temps and humidity. I think these ideas could be integrated with a bottom closed screened bottom board to catch mites, also with the unlimited broodnest to create really productive colonies kept in more of a natural manner with an absolute minimum of stress to the bees. Of course I will do some experiments.

I would love to see some comments on this one.

Sol Parker


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

A few of the conclusions above are mine, not those of the article.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have always tried to run my hives with some kind of upper entrance, for these reasons:

In the summer, it created more ventilation.

During the honey flow, it allows field bees to get in without having to traverse a queen excluder if I have one.

The bees do seem to like it.

In the winter I use one for these reasons:

It provides some ventilation.

If the bottom is clogged with snow or dead bees it allows some escape for the bees.

Basicaly I only close it to use an escape board, and then I usually put an inner cover with an entrance, or an Imire shim between the escape board and the hive.

I'm still not so sure that the bees don't need a lower entrance to allow cleaning the bottom board. If you look at a feral hive there is a pile of dead bees, old wax cappings, old combs and live wax worms on the bottom and it never gets cleaned out.

Also, for ventilation you need air coming in the bottom (which you could get from your screened bottom board). Also, the brood nest needs a good supply of honey and pollen, and I'm afraid the bees would lose alot of their pollen coming down through the excluder, if you have one.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

After considering the mess at the bottom, I think a small entrance would be good, besides if you had a queen excluder, drones would not be able to get out. But if you read the article, plenty of pollen was being brought down into the brood nest, and even though there were only two deeps, the only thing holding the queen back from laying eggs was that she could only lay so many in one day. The regular excluder colonies were getting plugged out with honey and the queen couldnt lay. the excluderless colonies had about the same results as the upper entrance ones plus the lower entrance ones were subject to skunk predation. Just a few things going through my mind.

Sol Parker


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If we are talking about redoing both the top and bottom entrances here's some ideas that have been used and concepts to take into account.

As you say, you could use a small entrance at the bottom.

And as you say, you will need a landing board for the top if you want a lot of traffic through there.

It would be nice if it was a separate peice from the hive so you could add supers and still put it back on top. I assume you planned it that way.

You could use some variation of the screened entrance like Brushy Mt sells for moving bees. This allows ventilation but no entrance. Then you could put a small entrance in it. Brushy Mt suggests that some people do that to make a skunk gaurd.

The slatted rack concept has a block for the front by the entrance to eliminate too much ventilation right by the door. It creates a sort of baffle right there. It doesn't stop the ventilation, just directs it back more. This supposedly allows the brood chamber to be more filled with brood which is something you were trying to accomplish. The the slats further break up the draft so it's more evenly distributed and it creates more cluster space on the bottom.

What if you also used the slatted rack concept on the top, with less beespace, of course. It might distribute the air going out more evenly and provide more room for traffic coming in to disperse.

Personally I've always favored no excluder myself, but I do use one from time to time depending on circumstances. Doing regressions has put me in a position of using them and using drone comb for supers has also put me in a position of using them.

I'd love to see what you come up with. Maybe after you've built it and tried it you could get Barry to post some pictures.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I built my first idea this afternoon, its kinda like an Imrie Shim, but with no bar across the front. The long sides extend out beyond the front of the hive and the landing board is nailed to the bottom of them. Can you see what I am describing? 
Since I can make them myself, I will save money on bottom boards since I only need a frame sort of thing that I can put hardware cloth on.


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## franc (Jan 7, 2003)

Ive been experimenting with hives using a top entrance only with the bottom sealed off and the bees tend to keep the bottom clean of dead bees etc. so thats not a problem as long as they room to carry stuff through the top entrance .What they lack is good ventilation during hot weather which can be fixed by drilling holes in the hive and covering them with screen wire..in the winter i cover the holes with duct tape to prevent a draft.Theres lots of advantages to this one of which is less skunk and mice damage during the winter.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Franc, you have more experience than me in this area, do you have any other observations?

Sol Parker


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Maybe if you had a slide out tray and checked on a reasonable schedule you could dump anything the bees didn't clean up from the bottom. Then it may be more practicle to have no bottom opening. Since I'd like to have a screened botom board I still think some kind of slatted bottom board would have the advantage of breaking up the draft from an open screened bottom board. Of course if you had the screen and 3/4" of space and then a botom, you wouldn't have the draft but the mites couldn't climb back up. Less ventilation of course.


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## franc (Jan 7, 2003)

Actually WiredForStero I use the upper entrance only for breeding nucs and let them over winter in these nucs.Its just easier for me because I just leave the top jared open an thats their entrance.I also just dump the feed on the floor so it sorta doubles as a feeder.Theres also seems to be less robbing maybe because of the screened vent holes I guess.And the biggest advantage







for me is grass doesn't grow in the way of the entrance as much.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I think I failed to mention that the entrance is kinda in the middle rather than just being an upper entrance. The brood chamber goes below, and the honey goes above.

Sol


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Further reading leads me to believe that if you use a queen excluder under the entrance, you will have to leave one super or hive body above for winter because very little honey is stored below even though there is plenty of pollen.

Sol


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The probelm is, in winter I don't think they will traverse the entrance to get to the honey. I've seen hives starve that had honey because it stayed cold and the cluster never moved to where the honey was.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Also, I didn't say it, but if the queen won't traverse the entrance, the cluster won't traverse the entrance.


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## Les (Jan 15, 2003)

I have been drilling a 3/4 hole inch come and go hole in each super just under the hand grip on the front of the box every since I started beekeeping. I had seen this at a beeyard in TX and I thought the old beekeeper knew what he was doing so all of my supers and most of my brood chambers are so drilled. If you ever have an oppertunity to see bees coming and going from the bottom entrance and all the supers at the same time you will not wonder why the holes. The holes save the forgers travel time by not having them enter a bottom entrance then climb all the way up and through a Queen excluder to the super. I find that the bees will close and open the holes with propolis according to their needs, the hole will be closed up to a 1/16 to 1/8 size during the coldest part of the winter and gradually opened to bee space size duing the spring and summer, I always open them to their full 3/4" as soon as I see two or three bees waiting around the hole to get in. I use 14 inches tall hive stands with screened BB, makes it easy to read the hive debris to see what the bees are doing , when they are collecting pollen, uncapping cells,etc I also leave a full BB entrance so as not to interfear with pollen collecting in the brood rearing process. 
I carry a few cork plugs in my jacket pocket along with paint for marking Queens,I mark any unmarked Queens as I find them and plug as required for super removal or transport. 
Have some fun drill a hole in one of your supers and watch how it is used, you can decide if if is a good or bad idea , drill a 1/2 inch hole , you can always plug it with a piece of 1/ 2 dowel if you don't like it. 
I try to make life as easy for my bees as possible by giving them easy access to their home and by providing a plentiful water supply just outside their door and at the hive entrance during the hot days of sumer. 
Snowed in the midlands of SC today, a rather unusual event , the bees were hunkered down wondering what is goin on , they were collecting pollen on Tuesday.
Regards 
Les in SC


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## Hook (Jun 2, 2002)

I drill holes too. Actually the boxes I inherited had them already. And it is true, the bees will use them. One thing about using only an upper entrance, is when bees remove their dead, they have a real hard time. I can'y even begin to imagine a bee removing a dead one, dragging it to the top. Seems like alot of wasted enery, that could be used elsewhere.

Just an opinion....

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Dale Richards
Dal-Col Apiaries
Drums, PA


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I do plan to put holes in my supers but not in the hive bodies I will be using for brood chambers. For the bottom I have decided on a flat board with a square or rectangular hole with 1/8 inch hardware cloth on it and 3/8 pieces of wood around the bottoms of the hive bodies for bee space and with an inch long space missing for drones to leave in case I use a queen excluder and for the bees to easily clean off the bottom board. 

Also, anyone with screened bottom board experience, do the bees plug it up with propolis if so, under what condidtions?

Sol Parker


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I used to drill a hole in the top super, but the holes always cause me so many problems that I wished I hadn't. When you want to move them or you want put a bee escape on or there is robbing and you want to close things up a bit. I prefer a top entrance on the inner cover that I can open and close when I want. Mine have a toggle on them. If you buy the DE conversion kit for a Lanstroth box, from Beeworks, they have this kind of top entrance. The plans for the double screen board show this kind of entrance. If you make your own inner covers this kind of entrance is easy enough to make.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I use migratory covers so for me, inner covers with telescoping covers seem to be a bit piontless. Drilling holes is easy and easily closed off with a piece of duct tape. I dont have that bad of winters, so far this year it hasnt even dropped below 30, and has never gotten below 15. The truth is, I only own one inner cover and thats used with a bee escape. 

Sol Parker


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## Joel Acheson (Mar 17, 2001)

Hi All
I really appreciate this discussion. I have been mulling the design of an alternative hive for some time, and the what and where of the entrance has been a big question for me. For now, at least, it has been answered: holes drilled in the upper part of the end board for entrances (maybe three 3/4" holes), and only a screened bottom board on the bottom. No openings on the sides or ends of the bottom part of the hive. Have to see what the girlz think of that after they live with it for a season.

Joel


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Wired - there is a commercially produced system much like you are describing. A midlle entrance and a pull out bottom drawer for cleaning. Check out Bee Culture for adds.

Keith


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I am sure there is, but who has money for such things when I can make them for about $1 a piece?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I bought two of the full kits and five more of the entrances and tops. I have high expectations for the system that I will be useing this year.
I also think that it will be very useful for fogging with FGMO.
And yes they did cost more than a dollar..
Bill


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The more I think if this the more I kind of like it. In the bee trees I've seen the bottom seems to be the garbage dump. It's covered with old combs, dead bees and wax moths. I'm not saying I think it's the most sanitary situation, but mites would be unlikely to find their way back up. Bees don't touch it so they can't get back on a bee. As long as you can clean it out, it seems like a nice idea. But then there was usually some space between the bottom of the combs and the mess on the bottom. I'm not sure how you'd enforce that and leave some space.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Just make a two inch spacer box like a slatted rack without the slats.

I am going to use regular bottoms with a screen above it and a removable tray under it. It will also have a screened front for air flow and an opening to clean out above the screen. No bees will be able to travel through my bottom arangement, however I should be able to keep it clean above and below the screen. Hopefully I won't need to clean above the screen very often.
Bill


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think it would be nice to be able to slid out the screened bottom for cleaning.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have now designed and built a few of these entrances and plan to test them this season. My bottom boards will be screened and a 3/8" beespace maintained around the bottom edge of the hive body with a 1" long space open for cleaning bees to access and also for drones to escape if I should decide to use a queen excluder.

Sol


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have these entrances on 14 of my new hives. The best working hive at this point has quite a flow of air coming out the top even though the entrance is partly closed off. I have also noticed dead bees laying just outside the small bottom entrance. 
So far, everything seems to be working out fine.

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Sol Parker
Southern Oregon Apiaries


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Update:
After having the bees on upper entrances for three weeks, most hives doing well. The hives that have upper entrances do not use the lower entrances, they are guarded in most cases, but not used.


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Sol Parker
Southern Oregon Apiaries
http://www.allnaturalhoney.com


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

After the whole summer of trying the new entrances, I think I am satisfied. I think in the future, I will make the bottom entrance a little wider though, just for more ventilation.

I wish I had gotten a hive big enough to try the unlimited broodnest thing. The highest I got a hive was two full boxes, and this from a hive that was split. It did really well, remember, it was a package. 

I wonder how often you can split a first year package and still get your best hive out of the deal?

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Sol Parker
Southern Oregon Apiaries
http://www.allnaturalhoney.com


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It depends on the queen, the weather, if you have drawn comb and if you want any honey.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Hey Wired,
What was your final configuration? Did you use an excluder above the top entrance? Was enough honey stored below in the broad chambers (especially the bottom chamber)? Here's the way I see it stack up:

1. Super
2. Super
3. Excluder
4. Main Entrance
5. Brood
6. Brood
7. Small Entrance
8. Screened BB


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I didnt end up with anything but plain bottom board, two or three deeps (top one not full) entrance doodad and then top.

I plan to have an entrance on top of three deeps and have deeps for honey on top of that, however many I shal. need, I will see.

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Sol Parker
Southern Oregon Apiaries
http://www.allnaturalhoney.com


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## kenr (Sep 25, 2005)

Solomon how did it go are you still using this setup or did you find that it was more trouble then worth it I want to know I'm going to try this on a few of my hives this year.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Wow, old thread, all the way back to my newbee days!

I am still using a setup very similar to this and in fact, the vast majority of the entrances I'm using are the ones I built back then. Currently, I am using two entrances and two identical lids for each hive. From the bottom up, it goes, lid, entrance, box box box, entrance (landing board up to make an awning), lid, brick. On small hives, I will leave off either the upper or lower entrance.

This year, I neglected to put any entrance reducers on, so we'll see how that goes. So far, no problems.

I have seen the bees tend to prefer the upper entrances as a rule, with lower entrances being more or less vacant. Robbers go by smell and since the bottom is an intake, there doesn't seem to be much draw for them there.

One other modification I have been using is making the bottom box a ten frame nuc with a permanently attached bottom and a 1.5" hole for an entrance drilled into the front of the box. Upper entrances have remained the same except for turning them over to make an awning rather than a landing board. Landing boards are unnecessary and awnings are much more useful in keeping rain and snow out.

With upper entrances, I never have condensation problems.


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## kenr (Sep 25, 2005)

Thanks for the reply the last two years I've used a screened inner cover liked it very well do you use a queen excluder above the broodnest.And can you tell how much better your honey flow is compared to a regular setup.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>> how bees want to keep an upper entrance rather than a bottom one. This defies the standard hive design straight off. A bottom entrance makes drafts in the brood chamber making it harder for the bees to keep a constant temp and humidity.

I dont know how you manage the bottom entrance but I reduce mine for most of the year, except during the heat of the production season. They then use the entrance fully for fanning and to provide an opening large enough to handle the huge amount of traffic into and out of the hive through the day. 

In the spring fall and winter they have a reduced entrance which is much prefered over the full entrance 
upper entrance during the winter is key


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

Ian said:


> upper entrance during the winter is key


Hi, is this a general reference to running colonies in your area or specific to your own indoor wintering set-up (as per that nice video you linked a while back)?


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

I went to all upper entrances on my 4-way pallets last spring and have eliminated skunk and mouse problems and produced the most honey since I started keeping bees.
Completely eliminated the bottom entrance and the upper entrance is part of the rim on my migratory covers.
Can't wait to see the honey production rates over several more years to see if it was just a good year or if the change really made a difference.
I don't get bearding as much and the bees don't sit and fan since the entrance is at the top and lets the heat readily escape!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

kenr said:


> do you use a queen excluder above the broodnest.And can you tell how much better your honey flow is compared to a regular setup.


I don't use a queen excluder for anything other than queen rearing (queenright cell builder and finisher). For that purpose, I have a handfull of plastic queen excluders. As for comparing with a conventional setup, I couldn't say. There is no honey to be had when it's hot enough to really need big ventilation.



Mtn. Bee said:


> I went to all upper entrances on my 4-way pallets last spring and have eliminated skunk and mouse problems and produced the most honey since I started keeping bees.


A skunk problem is what renewed my dedication to upper entrances. I had been less dedicated to it for a while. The skunk was what gave me the idea for the 10-frame nuc bottom box. The 1.5" hole has a metal disc entrance on it.  I can close it off and still maintain ventilation.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Rolande said:


> Hi, is this a general reference to running colonies in your area or specific to your own indoor wintering set-up (as per that nice video you linked a while back)?


ha ha thanks Rolande, kinda crazy walking aisles of stacked hives

as to your question, upper entrance has little effect in an indoor wintering set up. My comment was more towards the outdoor wintering arrangement. It provides natural convection to help reduce moisture also provides them an entrance during periods when the lower entrance is blocked with snow and ice. 

But throughout the production season , I see more bees using the bottom entrance than the top. 
But then again, my hives are full of cracks and holes, so really who knows, right?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

i have seen hives in churches which fill an entire section of a wall use a one inch hole for an entrance.

I have also seen a hive in a shed where as they walked a good meter to get in and out of their hive.

I have also seen a hive build open comb on a tree limb 

and I have also seen a hive that nicely filled a squirrel hole, to the squirrels dismay , lol


What Im trying to say is that it really makes little difference as far as the bees are concerned. They deal the best with the home they find.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

I don't use honey/queen excluders anymore except for queen rearing as well.


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

I provide both top and bottom entrances to my hives, some have Q excluders some don't. Some hives make lots of use of the top entrance, some mainly use the bottom entrance. Can't figure out why.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Ian said:


> What Im trying to say is that it really makes little difference as far as the bees are concerned. They deal the best with the home they find.


I agree with you generally speaking. A hive can survive with almost any size entrance, from a tiny hole to being totally open to the air (as might be the case in an attic as long as they are sheltered.) But if you're trying to keep bees in a utilitarian hive and make honey out of the deal, entrance characteristics are somewhat more constrained.


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## kenr (Sep 25, 2005)

I've got three supers(honey) that I had drilled a 7/16 hole in it last year and put them right above the queen excluder and they were barely used.This year I'm going to close off the front at least.And keep the excluder on at least untill they have one super of honey between the brood and the new supers of comb.And then remove the queenexcluders hopefully this will keep the queen down below.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Sounds like a couple things converged to hose your honey production. First I'd say is that the bees either weren't such that make honey, or didn't have any honey to make. Are you opposed to not using excluders?


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I realize that there will be differences in the amount of honey produced by individual hives, but do some bee colonies just not produce any excess honey?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Yes, there are colonies which simply do not produce any excess honey. All other things equal, few would hold it against you for requeening such a colony.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

lazy shooter said:


> I realize that there will be differences in the amount of honey produced by individual hives, but do some bee colonies just not produce any excess honey?


its all about the number of bees and the amount of nectar available to be gathered.


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## kenr (Sep 25, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> Sounds like a couple things converged to hose your honey production. First I'd say is that the bees either weren't such that make honey, or didn't have any honey to make. Are you opposed to not using excluders?


First of all everytime I tried not using excluders I always got brood in my honeycombs.Always!!Don't know if it was bad luck bad beekeeping or what I know know now to have a wall of honey and the queen will not pass hense the queenexcluder for the first super and then removing it for the rest of the crop.I live in a area with a good number of poplar trees and wild blackberrys for the spring honeycrop and about 26+ sourwood trees for the summercrop it could be my homegrown queens.I have some other queens Sunkist, Minn-hygenic most of my flock are Italian based local stock.I'm going to feed and give pollen this spring and see if this helps.Alot of my hives last year just didn't have the bees they needed to make honey even though I did keep them from swarming.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

your not the only one, queens love to move up !


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

We use queen excluders because we don't want brood in our honey supers then jog the 2nd honey super back 1/2 inch so the bees have an upper entrance. Reduces crowding in the broood chamber so helps control swarming, speeds up honey getting into surplus storage and allows better ventilation during honey flows.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

I place the honey supers that get brood in them on the very top when adding more supers and let the brood hatch out above the honey ceiling. Once they hatch out the workers will fill the open spaces where the brood hatched out with honey.
I do use excluders on my comb honey boxes!~


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I just don't harvest frames with brood in them unless it's just a little drone brood. None of my frames are sacred as drone or honey frames. Usually honey frames are just brood frames that have loads of drone and have been moved up.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Mtn. Bee said:


> I went to all upper entrances on my 4-way pallets last spring
> 
> and the upper entrance is part of the rim on my migratory covers.


Mtn- Can you share a picture of what this setup looks like? Is the entire front open and how much? Thanks.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If you download the full res version of the picture on the front page of my website (parkerfarms.biz), you can see 2.5 versions of my upper entrances. The first is a shim made of 3/4" material with a landing board that I have taken to use as an awning. That is on the two leftmost hives. The foremost hive uses one as a bottom entrance. Across the front row, you can see upper entrances of the Michael Bush style, using a shim glued to a piece of plywood. The foremost hive has one made from an old billboard, and the other two have one made of plywood that I happened to have that was cut with a 45 degree edge. In the very back is a hive with an upper entrance of the style of an inner cover with a small bee escape slot cut in the front.


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## kenr (Sep 25, 2005)

The last time I didn't use a queen excluder when I went to take honey off I had brood in almost every frame made me sick also had permacomb she really liked them frames.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

rkereid said:


> Mtn- Can you share a picture of what this setup looks like? Is the entire front open and how much? Thanks.



Sure can here you go check pics below!

http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s545/mike_hicks3/0414021312_zpsb5cc4bf2.jpg

http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s545/mike_hicks3/0701021033b_zps253749d8.jpg

http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s545/mike_hicks3/0701021020_zps83a31aa6.jpg

http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s545/mike_hicks3/0713022002_zpsfb23b71d.jpg


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

love the pics, cant wait til spring !


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