# A guide to buying package bees.



## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

...and whatever you do, DON'T SHAKE THEM IN THE HIVE!


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

The first picture is courtesy of member Keth Comollo; it shows what a good package should look like, good volume, very few dead bees.

The second picture is a size comparison between #2 on the right and #3 packages on the left.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

5) Upon inspecting the quality and quantity of the bees in the package(s) and that the queen(s) are alive, you can take possession of the package(s).
As soon as you place the package(s) in your rig and drive away, YOU are responsible for the bees entirely.
There are so many, many things and variations of things that happen to package bees after they are sold; DO NOT expect a refund or free replacement queen if something goes wrong.
If you encounter problems, return to your package supplier with your checkbook in hand and ask for help.
If you want to purchase packages from a supplier in the future, DO NOT make him or her the victim of circumstances when you have problems.
Remember, it's not perfection; it's beekeeping.


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

phyber said:


> ...and whatever you do, DON'T SHAKE THEM IN THE HIVE!


This is a conversation every spring.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> My guide to buying Package Bees
> A package of bees comes in #2, #3 and sometimes #4 size configurations.


Well, sometimes they come in *#5 *size configurations as well! 

For example, from a current ad in the _For Sale_ forum ...


> Bee Packages 2016
> Three, Four, and[HIGHLIGHT] Five Pound [/HIGHLIGHT]Italian or Carniolans Queens, April 2016
> These packages are out of McMinnville, Oregon We will be delivering all thru the Northwest in April.
> 
> ...


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I can't say how they measure them now, but originally they were sold by weight. Root even sold 1/2 pound packages, but found they were too small to arrive in good condition.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

In my experience I have never seen a Package producer with a scale in the field. I am not doubting that at one time they did, but the more common practice is to fill until the bees cover the support for the syrup can.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I've been present when a commercial pollination and queen rearing beek made up packages for delivery. They ARE weighed. He set package cage on scale and zero'd out the scale, and then poured bees in through a funnel until the scale tipped. It was a balance scale. I've never heard of making up packages by volume, but I've only seen the one beekeeper make up packages.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is California package producer _Honey-4-All_ talking about weighing/preparing packages with a programmable digital scale ...

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ght=programmable&quot;+scale&quot;#post915817


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I can see where making up packages by volume can be done and be fair. It does make some sense, seeing as bees do weigh differently as they are full or empty of nectar inside them. So I have no doubt that perhaps some shippers do it by volume, it's just that I've not experienced that myself. And hey, I've not experienced what commercial breeders and shippers of bees do at all other than that one time where the packages were weighed in my presence.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Trivia aside, there is some sound advice being offered here!


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

It may be an east vs west coast thing. I have dealt with many of the large package producers out of GA and have never seen any use a scale. But it also could be like with anything, you do it enough times on a scale you end up knowing where to fill to.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Here is California package producer _Honey-4-All_ talking about weighing/preparing packages with a programmable digital scale ...
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ght=programmable&quot;+scale&quot;#post915817


Surprised reading that thread. No feed cans really? As someone who has had considerable experience in starving bees, I figure bees have around 36 to 48 hours before they start falling on the bottom board, undoubtedly a bit more if their stomachs are full. Back in "the day" when we used to haul a lot of big loads of packs out of the south the very first thing we did was unload and inspect them for the occasional can that didn't have a proper sized hole punched. It wasn't too hard to spot them, they were either in the first stages of starvation or (if they were too big) there was a syrup mess in the cage and on the floor. The little cloth and snap ring setup was much more reliable.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> In my experience I have never seen a Package producer with a scale in the field. I am not doubting that at one time they did, but the more common practice is to fill until the bees cover the support for the syrup can.


Must not be watching the same videos I have seen. If the bees in a box don't weigh the weight they say they weigh then that is false representation. Like selling a 2 lb jar of honey with less than 2 lbs of honey in it. More than is okay, but not less.

If the bees in a package don't weigh what they are sold as, how do they determine what a 2#, 3#,or 4# package is. The boxes are all the same size, aren't they?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> It may be an east vs west coast thing. I have dealt with many of the large package producers out of GA and have never seen any use a scale. But it also could be like with anything, you do it enough times on a scale you end up knowing where to fill to.


If they don't use one out in the field, I bet they spot check for accuracy and quality control every so often.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Regarding _Jim Lyon_'s comments on hungry bees in post #14, here is another _Honey-4-All_ post discussing his UPS shipping arrangements of said bee packages ...
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...091971&highlight=packages+oakland#post1091971

Ship everything Next Day Delivery, avoid weekends and haul the bees directly to the Airport hub. Those bees should be delivered in less than 24 hours, most likely within 18 hours.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

jim lyon said:


> Surprised reading that thread. No feed cans really? As someone who has had considerable experience in starving bees, I figure bees have around 36 to 48 hours before they start falling on the bottom board, undoubtedly a bit more if their stomachs are full. Back in "the day" when we used to haul a lot of big loads of packs out of the south the very first thing we did was unload and inspect them for the occasional can that didn't have a proper sized hole punched. It wasn't too hard to spot them, they were either in the first stages of starvation or (if they were too big) there was a syrup mess in the cage and on the floor. The little cloth and snap ring setup was much more reliable.


Have 2 packages ordered from RWeaver this spring. They say theirs will be shipped with dry sugar. I bet those bees will be thirsty. The website specified weight of the packages. They are coming by UPS. That is my biggest concern.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I claim no expertise in package production or shipping. I'm betting Weavers have come up with something that's working for them and their customers.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

Only buy your package from a company that has many years like 10 yrs or more in business. I made the mistake of buying online from some place that was a front. What happened? The guy took my payment and never delivered. I only got them on the phone 2 times. Nothing more frustrating then to spend over $500 for set up. Fully ready for the receiving of the package of bees to start in the spring and the disappointment of being taken for $150 and no bees. I don't want anyone to ever ever ever go through what I did. Can't buy them commercially then DO BUY BEES LOCALLY from a bee club and ask the bee club is anyone has bees for sale like a 5 frame nuc box. 
In my situation I was in knowing, if someone approached me in the same situation. I certainly would do a pay it forward to help someone. That was WRONG of that guy to do that to me! Yes, even in the bee business people are not honest.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

RayMarler said:


> I've been present when a commercial pollination and queen rearing beek made up packages for delivery. They ARE weighed. He set package cage on scale and zero'd out the scale, and then poured bees in through a funnel until the scale tipped. It was a balance scale. I've never heard of making up packages by volume, but I've only seen the one beekeeper make up packages.


That must be surreal to see in person. I'd love to see that some day.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Must not be watching the same videos I have seen. If the bees in a box don't weigh the weight they say they weigh then that is false representation.


I haven't been watching the videos, I have been in the field with their guys, physically shaking out hives.

It isn't false advertising as much as it is misinterpretation. Note in the following link it's number 2 package and number 3 package...not 2 lb package and 3 lb package. 
http://www.gardnerapiaries.com/uploads/6/4/3/0/64307795/2016_prices.pdf


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

StingerMcStung said:


> That must be surreal to see in person. I'd love to see that some day.


Yes it was very interesting to see that part of beekeeping being done, I was fortunate to see it at the time. I was just riding along with someone who went to pick up 30 packages, and the commercial beek made them up as we watched. It was very interesting and informative to watch.

Perhaps some day you will see such operations yourself, or perhaps you will be the one making up packages for sale to others yourself!!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> I haven't been watching the videos, I have been in the field with their guys, physically shaking out hives.
> 
> It isn't false advertising as much as it is misinterpretation. Note in the following link it's number 2 package and number 3 package...not 2 lb package and 3 lb package.
> http://www.gardnerapiaries.com/uploads/6/4/3/0/64307795/2016_prices.pdf


Then what is in a #2 and a #3? And why wouldn't you want a #1? Isn't a #1 considered better? I know guys that won't sell their pottery if the bowl they throw isn't a #1.

So, what's the difference between the numbers? What do they mean? Two frames of bees and three? Since you were there, did you see a difference?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Post number 2 shows a pic of the size differences. Being I am in the northeast I have never dealt with #2 packs. Not being the producer and haven't ever dealt with them I can't comment on the meanings of the number. I agree that at one time they were weight based and it is probably just keeping in line with the numbering system that people are familiar with. Rossman's still has packages listed as lb based, but having purchased from them before they are also filling by volume. As is Roberts, Drew, Wilbanks.

Now reflecting on this a bit perhaps the operators don't know their South American Crews are filling by volume, perhaps the crew don't understand standard weights and measure system, they don't speak English. 

I am not here to debate how things are done, to me that is a counter productive waste of time. I posted this as a guide to the newer beeks who are planning to buy packages, based on my experience in the industry. I can't comment on anything more than what I have physically seen over the several years that I made the trip picking up and delivery bees.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Probably the producers have learned by experience the level in the package that is the same as 1,2, or 3 measured pounds. We know that weight differs if the bees are smoked and they gorge on honey versus opened without smoking. Working with people that don't understand your language often makes simple shortcuts necessary.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>...and whatever you do, DON'T SHAKE THEM IN THE HIVE!

Whatever you do, don't leave the package in an empty box on the top... just shake them in and avoid all of the problems with wild comb in or around the package. Shake them in and get it over with.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >...and whatever you do, DON'T SHAKE THEM IN THE HIVE!
> 
> Whatever you do, don't leave the package in an empty box on the top... just shake them in and avoid all of the problems with wild comb in or around the package. Shake them in and get it over with.


Yes, and the important thing is not to shake them in warm daylight conditions when many of the bees will take to the air and may or may not return to the hive they belong. In those conditions we used to spray them with a little water first or drizzle just enough syrup from the can on them to keep them from flying. We used to say the more miserable the weather, the better the package shaking conditions. If I only had a few to do I would start just as its getting dark or better yet, get yourself a red head lamp and do it in darkness.


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

OK, as those folks that know me, know I am a "Michael Bush Disciple" and yield to his wisdom and pattern my little operation after his example. However, I had planned to purchase three packages next spring for nucs and had planned to set the open box inside the hive box with a few frames and a little feed to get them going. I assumed the queen could be released from her cage positioned topside on the open package box and that they all would migrate over onto the combs and homestead the new box. What's wrong with this picture??? It seemed logical to let then peacefully migrate under the notion that they would feel less threatened. I would appreciate some guidance out of my "mentally challenged dilemma." Guidance welcomed.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

larryp....
Have you read this?
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespackages.htm
gww


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

Yes. Thanx LP


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## beegineer (Jul 5, 2011)

Technicalities aside very informative thread


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## bison (Apr 27, 2011)

Here is a good video that shows how packages are made. A scale is indeed used. There are other similar videos on YouTube.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKWVq-bZ9Ok

This one is more detailed and they use a different technique to identify the queen and then collect bees frame by frame. Scale is used at the end.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYJoXmX1bI4


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

_If_ you are going to put the package in (which I wouldn't) Be sure to add a box to the bottom and put the package on the bottom. Hang the queen at the top (which I also wouldn't do, but then I wouldn't but the package in...) so that the bees will leave the box and move to the top. Remove the box the next day. Do NOT wait longer than a day. The common mistake is to put the box in the hive in the only box and they start building comb in the box... There is no reason not to shake them out. The best time would be late afternoon so they have to settle quickly, or a light rain, or cold weather. The worse the weather the less they drift...


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## BradC (Apr 4, 2015)

I can speak from rookie experience on when to place the packages. I got over anxious when I got mine. It was an overcast day, but mid-morning when I placed mine. Needless to say, I had a very bad case of drift. I caught it early enough thanks to a local contact and was able to even out the hives. Still making rookie mistakes, like treating too late. But That comes with experience. Hoping the hive that I downsized can make it through winter. If it does, I would call it a win.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

For those that think that shaking packages into hives is too hard on the bees; I wonder how they think the bees got into the packages in the first place??!!!
:scratch:


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## mbevanz (Jul 23, 2012)

Try hard to find a nuc!
if that doesn't work, keep trying.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I wonder how they think the bees got into the packages in the first place??!!!

 Yes. Didn't they crawl in there of their own accord?


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> > I wonder how they think the bees got into the packages in the first place??!!!
> 
> Yes. Didn't they crawl in there of their own accord?


The packages I bought were put in by the Pied Piper Beekeeper. He plays his flute and the bees fly right into the box! 

I like this thread. Lots of good information and humor too. The advice I have seen here confirms the old saying "Buyer Beware". I must agree that if you are getting packages, try to pick them up if at all possible. Then you have the option of declining the purchase because it is an inferior product.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> Yes. Didn't they crawl in there of their own accord?


Could they just drum them in?


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

The shaking question is now cataloged and on the shelf. Point well taken and clarity has prevailed. I appreciate this discussion and will "shake" with all due haste. It is as if I am walking through a quagmire of information/misinformation and this forum is counseling me how to avoid the "land mines." Very valuable!

Best wishes, LP


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Could they just drum them in?

If they use an excluder and if they are willing to take the time, sure.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

or just talk to your supplier to about using Bee Buses. No need to shake just dump. Skip to about the 4 min 30 second mark the first half was just me being Ill prepared and figuring out the new style of package box LOL 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=junRNDp5Hr4


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I haven't ever seen any reason to attempt to shake bees out of the little hole in the top of the package.

The package it's self has very little value to the beekeeper after it is empty, so there is no reason to keep it intact. To get the bees out simply cut the screen out of the side and dump them into the hive, it doesn't have to be rocket science.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

:thumbsup:


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Had to wade through some kind of lame you tube videos of package installation until I came onto this one from Brushy Mountain. It's a real nice instructional and shows just how easy it is to shake out a package. The actual dumping of the bees through the top hole is very easy, I timed it and the gentleman in the video spend roughly 20 seconds shaking out virtually every bee in the cage. Don't make this more difficult than it is, a little spray of sugar water won't hurt the bees at all and no need to resort to tearing the screen off of the cage. Honestly folks don't be intimidated, it's really, really easy to do correctly. 
http://youtu.be/_31TcM7J-SU


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## Smokin' Joe (Feb 9, 2015)

Great video Jim. I agree with everything but the misting of the bees prior to install. I prefer to follow Mr. Bush's method that doesn't involve drowning bees in the package. I have only installed 2 packages so what do I know, but I find wisdom in his words!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Smokin' Joe said:


> Great video Jim. I agree with everything but the misting of the bees prior to install. I prefer to follow Mr. Bush's method that doesn't involve drowning bees in the package. I have only installed 2 packages so what do I know, but I find wisdom in his words!


No, a light misting of syrup, as is demonstrated in the video, won't drown any bees, it gets them grooming and gives them something to do as they are getting settled, if you start glug, glugging it on thats another matter.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Allen Dick used to talk about dunking the package in a bucket before hiving.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

At the risk of turning this into a shaking vs. some other way thread, I just don't get the problem with shaking. I've misted with mixed results and I prefer overcast afternoons but you shake when you can. I'd even prefer circumstances when I can shake and direct release. No coming back to extract a box or a queen cage. No worries about distant out yards or troublesome schedules. From my experience, the "shake" is more like a "pour" until the end. Often, I put the box with stragglers under the stand and leave it be. Might be a week or more before I'm back out to that colony. I've shook in falling snow. 

Respecting other approaches, that's my take. BTW, my first shake I did prob took 10 minutes. I understand the experience and I stand by my position while respecting other input. 

A good package, in my opinion, is fresh and full. I'm resigned to perhaps re-queening and sometimes even welcome that opportunity. Give me a nice supply of healthy, young bees and I'm off. I don't need much more than that.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

As far as misting goes before install it will not harm them in anyway. In 2014 I hauled 1000 packs back in a single load and they consumed over 200 gals of water during the 800 miles on the road. 

I had a 30 gal electric spray tank in my trailer and at every fuel stop and bathroom break it got filled with ice and water and the packages got a generous spray down. The bees suck it right up, when I unload the trailer the floor is dry.

I haven't ever heard of anybody physically dunking a pack in a bucket of water, but I could reason that it might be a good practice.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We used to use "trombone" sprayers with 5 gallon buckets of sugar syrup and immediately spray the screens on an entire load of 1,000 packages as soon as they arrived up north as starvation insurance against the occasional can that either ran out too fast or perhaps didn't get large enough holes pierced. Never hurt them a bit.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

ravenseye


> I'd even prefer circumstances when I can shake and direct release.


If I could reconize the cicumstances that allow shake and direct release, I would think I would like that best also. Soooo, What are the circumstances to look for to be successful with dirct releasing the queen and when to not do so.
Thanks
gww


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

For me, if I for some reason need to hold a package for a day or two before shaking I consider it a candidate for direct release. I also look closely at how the queen is being treated in the package. It doesn't take long to make an initial judgement. Couple years back I got called on a business trip the day my packages were arriving. My wife picked them up on a Monday and put them in the barn until I got home Wednesday night. She sprayed 1: 1 each morning. I went to work Thursday morning at 5:00 AM and sprayed them lightly before I left. It was snowing lightly. Come late afternoon I got home, taking a half day off and shook all the packages in. 1 out of 6 was a direct release. The last one looked iffy to me and I put the queen in still caged. As it turned out, she was the best of the bunch in terms of laying and longevity so I guess you never quite know.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Ravens...
Thanks
gww


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

bluegrass said:


> In my experience I have never seen a Package producer with a scale in the field. I am not doubting that at one time they did, but the more common practice is to fill until the bees cover the support for the syrup can.


Well, we go to J & J's every year and package bees with them before we take them each is weighed in the field. here are some pictures.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

bluegrass said:


> I haven't ever seen any reason to attempt to shake bees out of the little hole in the top of the package.
> 
> The package it's self has very little value to the beekeeper after it is empty, so there is no reason to keep it intact. To get the bees out simply cut the screen out of the side and dump them into the hive, it doesn't have to be rocket science.


You must not reuse package cage each year then.
Only save me $4k year.
Been in the business for over 30 years and still using some of my first cages.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

The Honey Householder said:


> You must not reuse package cage each year then.
> Only save me $4k year.
> Been in the business for over 30 years and still using some of my first cages.


For me it is not worth collecting them all back up from my customers and storing them til the next year, then transporting them back south. for the couple bucks I could get refunded on them...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, bg, do you think that maybe the place where you buy packages, that they may weigh them after shaking and before shipping and that is what determines what ones are #2s and #3s?


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## NH Beekeeper (Jan 18, 2015)

Having weighed packages we shook from own hives and filled up to the bottom of the syrup can bar support and brought them back to the shop and weighed them we were in for a shocker �� . They weighed in roughly at the low 2.34? # up to the high of 2.52?# on the digital scale/this was after we took the tear weight out of an empty cage. . Highly doubt some of the big package guys "Gardiners" are scaling them as they have 25k hives they shake from. That is why a lot say #2 or #3 as that is no claim to actual certified pounds it's just a size qty as in small, Medium, large. If they stayed in the cage a few days and ate some syrup them you could say they are really 3# of bees and ready to take a poop ��


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That's kinda funny. Any time I gauge something a #3 is Good, a #2 is Better, and a #1 is Best. But you are saying that a #1 is a Small, a #2 is a Medium, and a #3 is a large? I guess that makes a certain kind of sense. Thanks.


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## NH Beekeeper (Jan 18, 2015)

They probably think like a "tool" or screwdriver in size. Size 1 is for real small heads and 3 is for super sized head/Phillip or square head. YouTube dc honeybee package shaking. No scale seen in video as well as some others I have seen.

http://youtu.be/xYJoXmX1bI4


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## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

Most package boxes are made as to size. If the bees are up to the top of the cross bar you usually have more than 3# of bees. 2 pound boxes are made smaller as to where the same applies. Usually up to the bottom of the cross bar is mighty close to 3#. NC State published an article as to stating 3/4 inches of dead bees in the bottom of the package is acceptable. The requirements of some of these replies would drive the price up quite a bit.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I am still not sure why weight/volume matters to anybody on here... I am simply relaying my experience for the benefit of those who buy package bees. Guys like you Mark I would thing it doesn't matter to as #1 you are experienced and #2 I doubt you have bought packages to stock your hives in any recent history?

Quite honestly... after 10 years on this forum I no longer see it's usefulness. It has become nothing but a whining ground for a bunch of grumpy old men.. Somebody offers advise and the thread turns into a pissing match of irrelevant information. 

New comers get grouched at for asking questions and told to use the "search function"... Package bees are confusing to new bekeepers, they don't understand where they come from, how they are made, how to handle them, but nobody here is offering any pertinent advice except "buy local nucs".... We all know there isn't enough local nucs to replace the package bee industry and you guys who rant against packages don't seem to be making much effort to boost the nuc supplies...

End rant; I have better things to do today.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Alright, bluegrass. Consider my butt properly chewed. I hope I don't end up on your stroke unit, youngster.  I see some creeping ageism in your rant. Best beware. You might get to be my age yourself one day.

Your tag line is, "Always question Conventional Wisdom", but you don't like me asking questions? Okay.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I thought Bluegrass made an excellent op and lots of excellent guidance was given throughout much of the thread. Yes, in most any thread youre going to have to deal with a bit of meandering but to punctuate it by slamming Beesource in general and referring to the participants as "a whining ground for a bunch of grumpy old men" dosent exactly raise the level of discussion. My guess is a lot of inexperienced beekeepers gleaned some really good information from this thread. My suggestion for anyone posting on this forum is to make your point as clearly and succinctly as possible, don't get personal or worry about having the last word and trust the the readers to make their own judgements.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

In the experience of this "grumpy old man", 3 lb packages are a long established size that has a very high rate of success, overall. Smaller ( 2lb) packages may need more care than a "newb" may be ready for. 4+ lbs is mostly an "unnecessary" expense. 

Again, in my experience, buying packages from a source that has been beekeeping a few (or five) generations has been 100% successful, for me. I tried a new ( & cheaper) local drop, for packages last year, and lost 50%. I would have been better of buying 2 packages from the "proven" source, even at a 50% higher price. Bottom line - a cheaper source may not be the bargain you think it is.

As to " questioning conventional wisdom" - good luck with that. The OP is a treatise on convention wisdom ( & nicely done). Any one else notice the irony?:lpf:


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