# To Rotate comb or not to rotate comb...



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

The bees may or may not be "tiny" bees due to their cell sizes. And that may or may not be a stable, heritable trait. I have square yards of naturally drawn comb left over from when my wall cavities were used by feral colonies over the course of decades. There is no consistent cell size. I spent a considerable time measuring samples of it with a micrometer in my first summer.

My bees, left to their own devices, go hog wild building large cells whenever offered foundationless frames to play with. They normally live on plastic Pierco frames.

Bees have exoskeletons so once they emerge as adults their body sizes are fixed.

Bees that appear abnormally small may be affected by some viral diseases. And perhaps also may have some epigenetic or chronic nutritional stress issues. (The long drought you have been experiencing would select for bees whose bodies can cope with poorer diets, and typically, one of the ways that animals react to long-term, multi-generational food scarcity is to down-size their bodies.) 

I have no idea if smaller size may also be an AHB trait.

I have the impression that my bees do change size over the course of the year, and that my winter bees are generally a smaller-bodied cohort than my summer bees. However this may simply be an error in my own perception as up here in the winter I don't see my bees very much. I make a great effort to make sure my winter-bee cohort is exceptionally well-fed starting as larvae, so I doubt that is a factor.

Bees do like old comb for their brood, and you can use these combs for initial guides for your getting foundationless ones drawn straight and true. Medium to dark yellow is not old-sounding to me. Blacker than bittersweet chocolate is old.

All combs from another source could be the vectors of serious brood diseases which could result in the need (or perhaps even the legal requirement) to destroy your colonies should either AFB or EFB occur.

Still, the bees are already on those combs inside your equipment so the risk is already there. On the whole I would see if you can hang on the comb for a few more brood cycles in order to get your foundationless hive furnishings well underway. As a new beekeeper, those combs will be good learning tools in the art of bee-handling. You'll just have to remember that you'll need to learn a whole other style of holding and turning the foundationless combs once they are drawn. 

Some treatments leave residues, some don't. It depends on whether they are lipophyllic or not.

How are your bees doing? And how are you doing with them?

Enj.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

You are living in the the largest megalopolis in North America. Bees forage over a 2-3 mile radius. They are going to bring all sorts of urban contaminants back to the hive.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?313792-wax-rotation


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Yes, I know they are laden with foreign contaminants, I am right next to some freeways and my area is increasingly urban, this is inescapable until I move away one day. The bees came from an area which has been suburbanized heavily in recent years and prob was orange groves before. I think the comb is old, but that it wasn't used consistently for a long time, so the color is fine, but it's pretty ancient and tough stuff. I think the comb may be ok, I just worry.

I hope they keep a smaller cell size since its beneficial for varroa control, I hope the bee's size isn't resultant of disease or malnourishment...but I don't know. I haven't seen any deformed wings. The drones are huge.

The bees seem fine, there is so much pollen and activity around the hive. Since transferring them I did notice many bees crawling on the ground. I had put diatomacious earth on the foot of a block wall next to the hive where a big ant hive was, I think a few bees have crawled through it and may be dying? I don't know. I just really don't like the idea of them crawling around on the ground outside for any reason. They weren't doing it before. But I did reduce the entrance quite a bit, maybe they are having a difficult time adjusting to the new entrance. It's two 1/4" holes and a 1/4" slit at the end where those silly mouse guard metal reducers don't fit properly on the bottom board. I really don't like that reducer-it's ill fitting and seems useless. I am going to put in the wood one i ordered from Mann lake for that hive body...the hive I am using is brushy mountain and the two hives are 1/4" or more off on width from each other...so not interchangeable. I have to adjust the size....poor bees, I keep changing everything.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Small bees and crawlers without sign of DWV are typical of one of the other virus diseases -- CBPV "Chronic Bee Paralysis". 

The bees abdomen is curled under the body in the case of acute infection, but is less severe cases, the bees simply lack the strength to fly. If you see bees that appear small, hairless and black, this is a good indication of severe CBPV. The curled abdomen makes the bees appear small.

Bees that a trembling and falling off the landing board is another field sign -- often mistaken for pesticide poison. Differential diagnosis can be made by seeing the other symptoms -- hairless black crawlers with curled abdomen.

CBPV is exceptionally severe in California this year, by my reports from other keepers. CBPV can develop to epidemic level very quickly -- and the area around the hive becomes carpeted with dead bees.

My experimental TF apiary currently has 3 hives that are expressing very severe CBPV (from zero symptoms on April 7th). 

CBPV is not a Varroa transmitted disease.

The Kashmir-Israeli- Acute Paralysis virus group are Varroa transmitted. These have similar symptoms, but progress so rapidly that mass symptoms (crawlers, hairless, black, small and trembling) are typically not observed in mass. Instead, the hive depopulates quickly, and the brood is left to chill and die.

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No mouse guard is needed in summer hives. A brick on the landing board is a good reducer, or a 2x2 wood scrap. I use both --- and they have the advantage that you can slide them from side to side, and this shift in the entrance can be used to build brood and pollen of both sides of the box. By midsummer, I put robbing screens on weak hives. My robbing screens are nothing fancy -- 1/8 hardware cloth stapled on the entrance with a narrow escape up the face of the hive.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

The bees seemed fine before I transferred the boxes, I will keep an eye on them. Fewer crawlers today though. I will change that reducer it's stupid.
All the bee's are pretty hairy and yellow, no curled abdomens so far. Are your reports from your area or southern California as well? 
I read that whole rotating brood comb thread...I thought it was very interesting and that the answer will vary between locations, treatments, conditions and so on...it's a grey area...like all of beekeeping. At least now I know what I am supposed to take into consideration now. I think I should move to a deserted island and try beekeeping there for optimum results....sourcing my bees from Australia of course.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

So tell us the story where and how you got your bees.

I don't think the beekeeper you got them from wants the frame back. Maybe phone them and see what they need and donate some materials/money if you got your bees for free. 

Brood comb quickly becomes dark. I wouldn't worry about it. Once the hive is built up you can start rotating comb, but now drawn comb is a precious asset until you get some more built. Your main concern now is getting boxes and frames built to keep up with them. They will swarm on you if you do not. If you have plans for increase its time to get extra materials together as well. 

I build most of my own stuff, mostly ahead of time, but there have been a couple of times where I have had to improvise, build things fast, for instance when I got some queens on the spur of the moment.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Backstory:
I dropped in on a very small local group of old school beekeepers, they all were basically mentored by a man named Lewis who has been tending bees since he was 10 on a farm in Ohio. He is 83. He has his network of beek pals most of whom are retired and help him by catching swarms with their old equipment and he personally still goes out and does cutouts and rescues local swarms. 
The day I met Lewis, he was still in his full suit and had captured 3 swarms in the area. He has 300 hives inland on another beeks property. So he runs all ferals, he and his crew rescue them and they collectively help others keep them and everything is treatment free because of the local stock. He has always used ferals and hasn't had much of a problem with varroa, shb or moths... it's probably a really nice result from ahb genetics, swarming equilibrium in his own yard, hygienic behavior traits and how he has his hives set up in isolation. It's quite fascinating. I actually have been by the area he kept his hives many years back and remember how many thousands of bees were always around there (being an entomologist and generally looking at insect activity wherever I am)
He gifted me a 10 frame medium a retired friend used as a swarm trap a few cities away and that's my hive. It's four weeks along now, though I am sure I set it back by transferring them into a medium and deep 8 frame hive of my own. (I didn't have ten frame boxes to build with that one I got...) 
Their laissez fair attitude toward beekeeping is so unusual and actually works for them... could be a total fluke and dependant upon the local population characteristics and geography and ordinances... 

My hive was full, capped brood on nine frames, drones all over the place, got to see some emerging, not too many drone cells, not a ton of new larvae, but different instars were noticeable. I tried not to go too slowly and I didn't find the queen. Only had one frame being used for pollen and nectar, all brood frames had a little capped honey on top. The frames were half wired, half not, the wood looked almost black and the comb is nice and deep yellow... the bee's are mellow and haven't stung me, I crawl over to the hive and stare at them coming and going daily now. I suit up for any closer work (have discovered I hate the metal reducer!) After I get a hold of Lewis and chat about the comb history, I will be able to make a more informed decision about what I will do with the older comb. He has no cell phone and he is always busy!

I do want to give back to the nice beek who gifted me his equipment though...very nice thing of him to do.


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