# My first Top Bar Hive - Build



## Honey_i_do (Dec 5, 2021)




----------



## Honey_i_do (Dec 5, 2021)

Found two designs.

Will start collecting material this weekend.

One stupid question...

I know some beeks dip their boxes in wax.

Should I do something similar?


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

HID, Depending where you are at (your profile says nothing of it, which it should), you may want to research the subject some more before jumping at the TBH.
This is especially so IF you are at some relatively Northern location.

I never spent my time on the TBH and glad I did not buy into it.
It is just sold and perceived as if "easy" and gets you invested (then it is harder to break away from it).

If you are willing to custom build - there are much better options (while just as simple as the TBH).
This is objectively speaking, not my personal bias.

We discussed the subject to the death by now.
But again, you should read the BS Horizontal hive sub-forum - I will not be rehashing it for you.

The choice is, obviously, yours.
But a hasty decision now will give you all kinds of grief just few months down the road (and then it will be a "told ya so" moment  )..


----------



## FriscoDad (Dec 7, 2020)

GregV said:


> Depending where you are at (your profile says nothing of it, which it should),


 Based on the profile pic, palmetto and crescent moon, my guess he lives in South Carolina.


----------



## Mike in VA (Sep 2, 2021)

Honey_i_do said:


> Found two designs.
> 
> Will start collecting material this weekend.
> 
> ...


That sounds like a lot of wax! I started with a Warre hive in April. I oiled the outside and left the inside natural. I did wax the top bars though. The bees seem to be doing ok so far.

I'm planning to build a couple of TBHs this winter. I'm going to paint the outsides, and maybe rub some wax along the inside of the boxes (to get rid of the new smell). I don't plan to wax the bars as I've heard this doesn't improve how the bees build their comb.


----------



## Honey_i_do (Dec 5, 2021)

Yes…coastal South Carolina

My back is problematic.

Really just want to get a few hives going.

Have a few 8 frame mediums so I understand the pro’s and con’s.

More worried about keeping the bees alive…😁


----------



## Boondocks (Sep 16, 2020)

Another option-





Natural Beekeeping | Free Plans | Long Langstroth Hive







horizontalhive.com


----------



## bensbienen (Jul 31, 2020)

Honey_i_do said:


> Found two designs.
> 
> Will start collecting material this weekend.
> 
> ...


Wax dipping requires some equipment. You need a metal box big enough to get the entire hive in. Given that Top Bar Hives are quite big, that means you end up with a big metal box. That box is then filled with wax and heated significantly. So you'll end up with a lot of highly flammable liquid. For me, that would be much to risky. 

The idea of wax dipping is to protect the wood from the elements. There are easier ways to do this. You can just simply paint the hive - from the outside only of course - the bees will coat the inside with propolis anyway. Depending on your location and how bad the wether gets, what wood you use you might no even need to paint the wood.

I've build several top bar hives and painted them with an eco friendly paint that has been certified for organic beekeeping. I'm not sure if it really is any better than simple big box store paint, but it sure does the job - and it looks nice on the hives.

Also to address the topic wether you should or shouldn't start with a top bar hive. Every box has it advantages and disadvantages. Personally I started with the typical 'stacking boxes' hives and only later added top bar hives. By now I really love my Top Bars. No heavy lifting, no storing boxes in winter, no frames to store or assemble - I can get all material in the local hardware store instead of needing to order them from specialized stores. No need for an extractor, no need for a steam box to melt the wax out of the frames. Sure there are downsides. Moving top bar hives is a pain, no you can't exchange frames with your neighboring beek as you don't even have frames. You also have to be more careful with the comb, as it breaks easier than a framed one. 
Most of those downsides don't apply to my situation.

So in the end, for or against top bar hives is really up to you and your situation. I'd say try it, see if it works for you and your bees. If it doesn't, switch to a system you like better in the next year. The bees don't really care about the box as long as it meets certain baselines.


----------



## bensbienen (Jul 31, 2020)

One more thing: There are at least four top bar hive 'gurus' in the US that I know of:

Wyatt Mangum: Author and Bee Scientist – 200 Top Bar Hives: The Low-Cost Sustainable Way - Located in North Carolina
Christy Hemenway: Top Bar Hives | Kits, Books, Classes, Bees | Gold Star Honeybees - She and her bees are from maine
Michael Bush: The Practical Beekeeper, Beekeeping Naturally, Bush Bees, by Michael Bush - He's a member of this forum, but I'm not sure where his hives are located.
Les Crowder: About Les Crowder | Mysite - Texas

The hive plans on their sites all vary a bit - you might want to have a look at it and see which one is closed to you local weather and climate and see if you can adapt their ideas.


----------



## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

Alaskamike said:


> That sounds like a lot of wax! I started with a Warre hive in April. I oiled the outside and left the inside natural. I did wax the top bars though. The bees seem to be doing ok so far.
> 
> I'm planning to build a couple of TBHs this winter. I'm going to paint the outsides, and maybe rub some wax along the inside of the boxes (to get rid of the new smell). I don't plan to wax the bars as I've heard this doesn't improve how the bees build their comb.


Interesting......I'll be starting my first hive in April 2022 with a package of Italians. Similar to how you prepped your hive, I used Spar Urethane on the exterior and left the interior natural. I was wondering if you thought by putting wax on the bars helped the bees accept & develop the hive better than if you'd not treated them.


----------



## bensbienen (Jul 31, 2020)

Eagle1 said:


> I was wondering if you thought by putting wax on the bars helped the bees accept & develop the hive better than if you'd not treated them.


I'm using top bars with a 30 degree triangle cut on them on the table saw. I waxed the first few ones but by now i just leave them as they are. I don't see any difference in acceptance. So I don't wax them any more. Less work, less risk to bring in contaiminated wax.


----------



## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

bensbienen said:


> I'm using top bars with a 30 degree triangle cut on them on the table saw. I waxed the first few ones but by now i just leave them as they are. I don't see any difference in acceptance. So I don't wax them any more. Less work, less risk to bring in contaiminated wax.


Mine have a similar cut edge and basis this advice, I'll leave them alone. Thanks.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Somewhere I have seen a discussion to the effect that if you leave raw wood the bees put a primer of sorts on first that gets a better bond to the wood than just melting on wax that can pull loose from the wood. The bees do a better job of that without your help!


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Much depends on the surface, and whether the bees can get a grip on it, or not. If the wood is rough sawn, then it'll probably be ok, but maybe not if it's very smooth.

On one occasion a few years back, I needed some 'comb supports' in a hurry. At that time I was using commerically-produced gear, and had a couple of hundred frames squirreled away in store, still in flat-pack bundles. But, upon looking for them, it appeared that I'd been visited by a two-legged fox and had been cleared out. So - what best to do ?

Sometimes, "needs must" and so I cobbled together a dozen or so Top Bars by gluing some triangular section moulding of which I'd found a few lengths in the shed onto some plain battens of the right length. These looked ok, and so I made up a small Top Bar Hive, and then made a split into it.
Over the next few hours I kept hearing a strange 'tap' sound every few minutes, which began to puzzle me as I'd not heard anything quite like that before. Eventually, I traced this sound to the small Top Bar Hive which I'd just made up. 

Upon careful inspection I discovered the following: the bees were ascending the walls of the hive ok, before moving along the length of one of the triangular sections, where they clustered towards the 'sharp edge' where they had intended to start drawing comb - but, not being able to gain sufficient grip there, that small cluster promptly fell off, and landed on the floor of the hive ... making a 'tap' sound in the process. Then, this cycle was being repeated, time and time again. They were getting nowhere. Poor little sods.

The problem was that the triangular section moulding I'd used was hardwood and had a smooth, almost polished finish. The bees were like so many mountain climbers faced with an overhang without handholds on both sides of where they were clustered, and were unable to get even sufficient grip to hang on, let alone start building comb from that position. So - I gave each bar a generous lick of molten wax before replacing them, which instantly solved the problem, and that little colony never looked back.

These days I use popsicle (lollipop) sticks on edge, with which I've never had a single problem.
LJ

PS - if you want to wax a hive, then a jar of molten wax, a disposable-quality paintbrush, followed by a hot-air gun is a far more economical method than dipping boxes.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

bensbienen said:


> There are at least four top bar hive 'gurus' in the US that I know of:


yep... and there is a notable 5th, Marty Hardison


https://www.beesource.com/attachments/the-appropriate-beehive-by-marty-hardison-pdf.61453/



He wrote his book, and then gave it away and went to work for bees for development teaching top bar hives in Africa..
you don't hear much from him as he is not selling anything, the other 4 are

I don't like Christy's center entrance Chandler style hives(bare foot beekeper), they have been very probomatic out here with the bees moveing in to the sotores left or right and get trapped by a cold snap and starveing, I much prefer the end entrance with the brood up frount and food in the back... may not be an issue in your clime 

I have run bolth hardison pattern and crowder hives along with bell ("backyard Hive" I was given a pair of "used one season hives" by a local shop as they had been so much trouble they didn't want to sell them and end up providing support) and much prefer the 16" top bar of the Hardison, less cross comb issues
I run (ran)a 3/4" triangle (unwaxed) air stapled to the top bar as a comb guide and have found it better then full whith guides...

unless your looking for large expansion on the cheap, I would look in to a long lang and leverage some of the gear you have


----------



## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

little_john said:


> Much depends on the surface, and whether the bees can get a grip on it, or not. If the wood is rough sawn, then it'll probably be ok, but maybe not if it's very smooth
> LJ


I think given the exchanges I'll leave the top bars unwaxed. Even though I consider the surfaces rough enough for the bees to grip and build upon, I might just run a low grit sandpaper over the angled edges to enhance things. Beyond that, I think they've got it covered


----------



## Mike in VA (Sep 2, 2021)

Eagle1 said:


> Interesting......I'll be starting my first hive in April 2022 with a package of Italians. Similar to how you prepped your hive, I used Spar Urethane on the exterior and left the interior natural. I was wondering if you thought by putting wax on the bars helped the bees accept & develop the hive better than if you'd not treated them.


I actually used spar varnish for the roof, and the tung oil on the the boxes. I waxed the bars because the book said to, but from what I've read it doesn't help with the comb alignment - I think that plain, rough wood is better.


----------



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

A bad back (had surgery but I am not pushing my luck) is why I decided to use 8F-mediums. We ran a long Langstroth with Russians in the teaching apiary this past year and that worked well. We also had a Slovenian hive that we did not populate but will be used next year, the intent is to enable those in wheelchairs to be able to work the hives. A couple more ideas for you if you've not pulled the trigger on the Top Bar.

The long Langs are advantageous of course because they use standard frames (you might purchase a nuc for instance.) The Top Bar is sort of Banzai Beekeeping, you can probably buy, build, and have the hive ready for a colony in one afternoon.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

LBussy said:


> We also had a Slovenian hive that we did not populate but will be used next year, the intent is to enable those in wheelchairs to be able to work the hives.


With the Slovenians you have different levels - one must reach all way down; one must reach up - the Slovenians are NOT a single level hives (not by default).
You want a single level hive that that is just at the right height for the people in wheel chairs.
Indeed, a couple of Slovenian levels are workable, but not beyond that.

IMO, the most workable for a wheelchair person is a single-level horizontal hive (Lang/Dadant) with the frames oriented in a "warm way".

Here is a YT channel ran by a wheelchair bound beekeeper.
Take a look at his ergonomics and challenges.


https://www.youtube.com/c/%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8B%D0%B9%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0/videos



OK, here you go - created a topic because this subject is not talked about much.








Ergonomic beekeepeeing - from the wheelchair.


Imagine you are a wheelchair bound person (or you have to be sitting for any other reason). How can you work the bees? I think this particular setup will enable this - a single tier Land/Dadant hive that allows a sitting person work the hive from behind the hive and be able to reach every frame...




www.beesource.com


----------



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

GregV said:


> With the Slovenians you have different levels - one must reach all way down; one must reach up - the Slovenians are NOT a single level hives (not by default).


I agree, a long may be easier and more commonly used. Our job with the training is not to tell people the best thing for them, but to show them different options. While I am not differently abled, I did sit in a chair and mock use the hive. Where it has strengths is the ability to put it inside a shed for instance, and have the beekeeper work from the back on a hard/level surface.

All different ways to skin a cat. Not everyone's abilities are the same.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

LBussy said:


> I agree, a long may be easier and more commonly used. Our job with the training is not to tell people the best thing for them, but to show them different options. While I am not differently abled, I did sit in a chair and mock use the hive. Where it has strengths is the ability to put it inside a shed for instance, and have the beekeeper work from the back on a hard/level surface.
> 
> All different ways to skin a cat. Not everyone's abilities are the same.


Something like this - but still requires a whole house built around it - this house-thing to just hold few beehives is an over-kill for most.





But a simple horizontal hive can be just stood up on a back porch or an a patio (for pennies, comparatively speaking).
A special porch can be just built as well - for a chair beekeeper - however, cheap/simple one wants to do it.
Hard/level surface problem solved.
Put up a beach umbrella, or even a mosquito tent above - tada! - the shade.
All the while you don't need to inhale much smoke (a problem of the enclosed, poorly ventilated structure).

Many options - there I agree.


----------



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

You never know what people may be starting with - for instance maybe they have a garden shed already built to allow them to do garden work - for that a Slovenian hive might be good. As I inferred, we need not argue about what's best for people, we need to present them with options from which they can choose what works best for them.


----------



## Honey_i_do (Dec 5, 2021)

Long Lang looks like the winner.

Will start on Hive #1 this weekend.


----------



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I feel ya. Before surgery, I would often have spasms (I guess that's what I'd call them) that would lay me out for a few days.

If you will be keeping bees in more than one place, the long Lang seems like a better option for you. While you can certainly move resources between top-bar hives, I think you might find it easier to do so over a distance with Langstroth frames.


----------



## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Honey_i_do said:


> View attachment 66529


Here is the design I use:








It's Les Crowder's design from his book "
*Top-Bar Beekeeping: Organic Practices for Honeybee Health"*
The thing I like about this design is the top bars are relatively long while the depth of the box is shallow. This provides the comb with a lot of attachment area but not a huge amount of weight. This makes for robust comb. I rarely have to cut the comb from the sides of the box because, with this geometry, the bar come out fairly easily. My top bars are a little different from the above. I cut them on a table saw with the comb side a 90 degree included angle "V". They work quite well to minimize cross-combing. As for the top, I make a wooden frame and put plated steel sheet on the top. You can obtain this cheaply from old heating ducts that have been sent to the junk yard or recycle center. This works well for me. I wish you luck with whatever you choose.


----------



## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

The usual TBH entrances are round, say three at each end, about 1" diameter so the can be blocked by corks.

Try to make the top bars with a sharp edge on the bottom surface (5 sided cross section) to encourage straight comb


----------



## Mike in VA (Sep 2, 2021)

mchrist152 said:


> bars are a little different from the above. I cut them on a table saw with the comb side a 90 degree included angle "V"


I am planning to use the same plans to build a couple of hives for next year. Can you post some pictures of your top bars? Thanks.


----------



## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

You bet. Here they are:
















In the first picture you can see the side entrance. This is another Les Crowder recommendation and I really like it. There is never any problem with snow blocking the entrance and the bees don't mind not having a landing board in the least. I added the sliding doors so I can easily reduce the size of the entrance in the winter. A lot of the wood on this hive came from a Top bar hive I purchased on ebay. The design of the ebay hive was poor in that the angles were only 15 degrees from vertical and the resulting comb was very weak. It was a really pain to keep it from being cross-combed over time. It did however, have a nice window that I didn't want to throw away. I love this hive. I've got 3 other hives with different features. For example, one hive has a whole side made of plexiglass so it's really easy to see inside. It also uses 2" thick wood instead of 1". The main thing you have to remember is to keep the internal cross-sectional dimensions the same. You want to be able to split and combine as necessary.

I hope that helps. If you want more pictures just let me know.

Mike


----------



## Mike in VA (Sep 2, 2021)

Those are great - I really like the rebar hive stand (although I don't think my wife would like it). Do you have any photos of the individual top bars? I'd like to see how they were cut.
Thanks.

Mike


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Some Bloke said:


> The usual TBH entrances are round, say three at each end, about 1" diameter so the can be blocked by corks.
> 
> Try to make the top bars with a sharp edge on the bottom surface *(5 sided cross section)* to encourage straight comb


I can never understand why people will keep insisting on complicating simple ideas.

I don't know how much you know about the KTBH - it's origins can be found in a design by two Brits, Tredwell and Paterson, which was adopted by Kenyan students at the University of Guelph who considered that it might be suitable for their home country.

I'm attaching a ccpy of the original paper written by their professor, Gordon Townsend, and would draw your attention to the diagram on page 10 which I've highlighted here to show the recommended profile of the Top Bars. This T shape can most easily be made by gluing (with either waterproof glue or wax) a popsicle/lollipop stick directly to a rectangular section batten. I don't know who first started to specify triangular-section Top-Bars, or their reasons for doing so - but such sophistication is completely unnecessary.










I used to run a saw-groove down the centre of my (frame) top-bars into which I glued popsicle sticks, until I discovered that even that wasn't necessary:










There's a lot to be said for keeping things simple ... 
LJ


----------



## Mike in VA (Sep 2, 2021)

little_john said:


> I can never understand why people will keep insisting on complicating simple ideas.


One of the things that draws me to the non-Langstroth hives is the ongoing innovation. As I read through different books about different approaches I find concepts that I agree with and some I don't, and I think there is still room to try new ideas - particularly for hobbyist beekeepers.


----------



## bensbienen (Jul 31, 2020)

Those are the ones I'm using. This is one of the first - still with wax on it. I'm cutting them from 38x58mm stock, so I don't need to trim them down. Two cuts on the table saw to create the the triangular shape on them and four cuts on the band-saw to create the flat spots. 49cm long, so that I don't have any off cuts.


----------



## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Here are some top bar pictures:

















I cut these from nominal 2"x2" pine (1.5"x1.5" actual). I used a Rigid brand portable contractor's table saw that you can buy at home depot for about $300.
Here are some pictures of the other hives as they show some different stand options:








The above hive has the plexiglass side that is really nice for observation. It has a stand made of 1" copper pipe which also looks good. Although the most expensive option it wasn't too bad because I picked up all the pipe for cheap at a recycle center. I do worry about some idiot stealing it for scrap and although that hasn't happened yet it is the main reason I've gone to rebar stands.








The above hive shows a wooden hive stand option. All these stands work well. The hives simply sit on the stands so I can remove any of them if I want to. This is handy if you want to use one to catch a swarm or if you want to move the hive to a different location. Interestingly, my wife likes the rebar stands the best because she doesn't see them from the house. They kind of disappear in the background and the hive appears to float in the air.

Again, hope that helps.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Mike in VA said:


> One of the things that draws me to the non-Langstroth hives is the ongoing innovation.


But also look at the reintroduction.
Perfectly fine and deserving solutions were forgotten and/or suppressed intentionally by the equipment "big boys". 
Most of the "innovation" is nothing but reintroduction.


----------



## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Mike in VA said:


> One of the things that draws me to the non-Langstroth hives is the ongoing innovation. As I read through different books about different approaches I find concepts that I agree with and some I don't, and I think there is still room to try new ideas - particularly for hobbyist beekeepers.


I think one needs to determine their beekeeping goals and interests. If your goal is to maximize honey production and income then the Langstroth is hard to beat. If I were trying to make a living at this I would be using Langstroth hives. If your goal is more natural beekeeping and harvesting enough honey for family and friends then these top bar hives are great. They are much easier to work than a Langstroth, no heavy boxes to move around, and inspections are much less disruptive to the bees. They are great for trying different innovations and ideas as you can see from my pictures. The other downside might be more frequent inspections are required to keep tabs on cross-combing. But overall, I think this is the way to go for a hobbyist beekeeper.


----------



## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

little_john said:


> I can never understand why people will keep insisting on complicating simple ideas.
> 
> I don't know how much you know about the KTBH - it's origins can be found in a design by two Brits, Tredwell and Paterson, which was adopted by Kenyan students at the University of Guelph who considered that it might be suitable for their home country.
> 
> ...


There's nothing wrong with gluing popsicle sticks to the bottom of the top bars. I'm sure they work well. But I find cutting the triangular shape into the top bar is even simpler provided one has a cheap table saw.


----------



## Mike in VA (Sep 2, 2021)

mchrist152 said:


> I think one needs to determine their beekeeping goals and interests.


I agree 100%! All I wanted (at first) was a little honey for my morning tea (still waiting for that). I started with a Warre hive because they are relatively low maintenance. Since then, I've been reading about top bar hives for my next adventure. My new hives are sure to be a unique combination of every book that I've read!


----------



## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Another thing I read on these forums is feed, feed, feed. But why? I mean if they don't have any stores and are starving then certainly feed them. Or perhaps one wants to maximize honey production which would be another reason to feed. But if the bees have honey stores and/or a flow is going on I avoid feeding them. Why? Because sugar water is not good for them. Just like it is not good for us. It might be a necessary evil but I avoid it if possible. I haven't feed my bees once this year and they are doing fine. I've split them and gotten some honey. Time will tell but I'm feeling pretty good about them now. The other thing I wonder about is how much of that sugar water is being stored in comb. I don't want to harvest honey only to have most of it consisting of sugar water. I prefer to maximize on honey flavor and quality.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mchrist152 said:


> I don't want to harvest honey only to have most of it consisting of sugar water.


Feeding <> harvesting the sugar honey back.
Study up.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

mchrist152 said:


> Another thing I read on these forums is feed, feed, feed. But why? I mean if they don't have any stores and are starving then certainly feed them. Or perhaps one wants to maximize honey production which would be another reason to feed. But if the bees have honey stores and/or a flow is going on I avoid feeding them. Why? Because sugar water is not good for them. Just like it is not good for us. It might be a necessary evil but I avoid it if possible. I haven't feed my bees once this year and they are doing fine. I've split them and gotten some honey. Time will tell but I'm feeling pretty good about them now. The other thing I wonder about is how much of that sugar water is being stored in comb. I don't want to harvest honey only to have most of it consisting of sugar water. I prefer to maximize on honey flavor and quality.


Depending on where you live, you might find it near impossible in many years for new colonies to draw comb and get up to wintering weight without supplemental feeding. That is true in many years in my locations and most definitely was so this past year. My best yield in 10 years has been something a bit over 100 lbs but that then leaves the colony so light that a minimum of 35 or 40 lbs of feed is mandatory to hit target wintering weight since we get no fall flow. 

Saying that sugar water is not good for bees is far to blunt a statement. People in areas where canola is the main forage have found that bees indeed winter much better on sugar syrup stores than the hard crystallizing canola honey. You can avoid feeding it if it suits your circumstances and philosophy but I think it is misleading people to state its supposed evils in such strong terms.


----------



## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

When starting a hive with package bees.....is it recommended / necessary / or not necessary at all - to reduce or partially block the opening to the hive for a day or so once all are in? I have a Warre Hive on which I've already installled a Guardian Hive Beetle block. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated - thanks!


----------



## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

mchrist152 said:


> There's nothing wrong with gluing popsicle sticks to the bottom of the top bars. I'm sure they work well. But I find cutting the triangular shape into the top bar is even simpler provided one has a cheap table saw.


Agreed. I tried popsicle sticks glued to the underside but the shaped bar seemed more elegant, uses no glue (which I try to minimise) and actually I find the comb is straighter. I use a sharper angle than shown on the photos by others in this thread.

Another thing is, the shaped bars are _one piece of wood_ and thus strong. I bought my first TBH which had 2 piece bars - there was a triangular comb guide affixed below a rectangular bar and on several occasions, when loaded with 3kg honeycombs _these pulled off_ - what a mess. So I prefer one-piece bars partly for peace of mind.

I have seen the original paper before, thanks. I'm also aware of various subtleties like the different bee space used by African bees, resulting in terrible cross combing issues when well meaning experts persuaded Africans to use standard framed hives; how the biggest problem beekeepers there face is not the bee sided stuff but the marketing chain; how African bees simply won't stay in mesh floored hives ("how can we guard vs SHB etc getting in through that?") Etc.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Some Bloke said:


> Another thing is, the shaped bars are _one piece of wood_ and thus strong. I bought my first TBH which had 2 piece bars - there was a triangular comb guide affixed below a rectangular bar and on several occasions, when loaded with 3kg honeycombs _these pulled off_ - what a mess. So I prefer one-piece bars partly for peace of mind.


I really must comment on that assertion - just in case anyone here should take what you have written seriously. The idea that a properly glued two-part top-bar is significantly weak is nothing less than preposterous. If your glued top-bar failed, then look either to the glue used or to workmanship for a cause.

I must have made well over a thousand top-bars and frames, all of which have been held together with glue, and in that time there has not been one single instance of a glue-line failing.

The frames I make are all of the same basic construction: I first make the frame rectangle within a jig, and then add the top-bar afterwards - so that the resulting top-bar is *always* made from two parts, held together *only by glue* - nothing else.

Here are a couple of photographs I made in the early days, when I used a 56lb weight as a go/no-go test - the first was a check for bowing with a standalone double-10mm thick x25mm wide top-bar, the second was a specific check for the 'top-bar to frame' glue-line strength:



















If there's any dispute re: the above, I'm more than happy to repeat the same test with double the weight, as I'm confident such a glue-line would support 112 lbs. (However, I'd need to use thicker string for such a test  )
LJ


----------



## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Gee littlejohn a post just in time LOL I am shortly constructing two part top bars and was concerned that they might not be thick enough. So in your experience 10mm is fine?


----------



## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

Thanks Litlejohn, that is reassuring.

The bars I bought which failed were not glied, but nailed


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

ursa_minor said:


> Gee littlejohn a post just in time LOL I am shortly constructing two part top bars and was concerned that they might not be thick enough. So in your experience 10mm is fine?


10mm ? Well - kindof - made from* two* thickness of 10mm, so that the lugs/ends are 10mm, but the central section is 20mm. See the diagram in post #1, Frame sizes reviewed ...

That will withstand the heaviest load normally encountered - the above tested top-bar did bow just a little (circa 2-3mm) with 56lbs attached to it - but then, it didn't break.  With just a few kilos attached such a bar should remain dead flat. 

I'll continue this reply in the above link, as what I'm about to write is more relevant to that particular thread.
'best
LJ


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

This should be educational for people who claim they think use of glue for frame and box construction is a waste of time and money! Lots of pics. too showing only a _token _application of glue.


----------



## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

little_john said:


> 10mm ? Well - kindof - made from* two* thickness of 10mm, so that the lugs/ends are 10mm, but the central section is 20mm. See the diagram in post #1, Frame sizes reviewed ...


I did not make myself clear, yes the lugs at 10mm. I think I am using a frame plan you posted a few years ago that had a rectangle made and then a top bar attached. When I started I made the traditional Layens and that was a pain, those are easier for a new woodworker to make and they are very sturdy.


----------



## Mike in VA (Sep 2, 2021)

Eagle1 said:


> When starting a hive with package bees.....is it recommended / necessary / or not necessary at all - to reduce or partially block the opening to the hive for a day or so once all are in?


I installed a swarm in my Warre hive this spring and left the opening alone. They should be ok. You may want to put some sugar syrup in a feeder on top of the bars for the first couple of days.


----------



## Honey_i_do (Dec 5, 2021)

Just checking back in...

One thing that stalled my decision was lack of land.

Another was fear of getting in over my head from a lack of skill set.

At least I got wood cut for swarm traps.

Thinking a Layens design might be simpler with Langstroth frames?

Since work is slowing soon for the season, going to locate a local beek or club for some volunteer work or lessons.

Ready to roll by year end is the goal.


----------

