# Trap-out or smash open cinder block wall?



## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

That might be the only time I would try a trap-out. Here's the thing: it will of course leave all the comb and stores inside the wall. If she's OK with that (it is 'crete, after all), try the trap-out. I wouldn't consider trying a smash-out without a firm written agreement and payment.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Ben Brewcat said:


> That might be the only time I would try a trap-out. Here's the thing: it will of course leave all the comb and stores inside the wall. If she's OK with that (it is 'crete, after all), try the trap-out. I wouldn't consider trying a smash-out without a firm written agreement and payment.


Hmmm,

I'm headed to youtube to see if I can find anyone removing bees from a cinder block wall.

Not sure if this venture is even going to be worth the trouble.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

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This guy is just going to destroy them.

ISN'T THAT JUST SPECIAL !??!?!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Cinder block will be easy to break. Be careful of the blocks above that are supported by the ones you need to break. basically you need to remove blocks in a V shape from the bottom up and I woudl guess there is a considerable area inside the wall that a hive covers. I don't think I would break the wall unless the owner wanted it removed.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Daniel Y said:


> Cinder block will be easy to break. Be careful of the blocks above that are supported by the ones you need to break. basically you need to remove blocks in a V shape from the bottom up,.....


Thanks for that tip. Makes sense to me.


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## tedlemay (Oct 3, 2011)

I am doing one right now in a block wall. all is going well. i used a bee escape taped over the hole. Works well.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

I'm guessing that in a trap-out, I would need existing brood with eggs in it?

I don't have that available right now, if that's the case.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Wow,

look how long these combs extend down in a cinder block wall:


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

I've been slacking on studying trap-outs.

So, in the following video - two questions:

How come the bees travel OUT of the cone but not back in? It sure looks like a large cone opening



> EDIT - I just read where their sight is not coordinated enough to find the small end of the cone and go back in. Also, they are attracted to the smell coming from the base of the cone.


and

What does he have in the hive to attract the bees? existing brood?


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

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Alright, from what I understand, I really need fresh eggs in brood comb for a trap out to work.

I guess i can scratch that option.


Crap, because it would be so easy. The hole is only about a foot-or-two up the wall.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Do the trap out. Just place the hive body with empty (with foundation) frames next to the entrance (as close as you can), against the wall. Install the cone over the opening. I attatch mine through a piece of plywood, stapled to the back of the ply and screwed to the mortar joints. Be sure to caulk the egde of the ply. In a few days you will have the bees start to take up residence in your hive. Wait two to three weeks before you remove the hive. IF you wait, most often you will get the queen as well. Done this many times.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Mr.Beeman said:


> Do the trap out. Just place the hive body with empty (with foundation) frames next to the entrance (as close as you can), against the wall. Install the cone over the opening. I attatch mine through a piece of plywood, stapled to the back of the ply and screwed to the mortar joints. Be sure to caulk the egde of the ply. In a few days you will have the bees start to take up residence in your hive. Wait two to three weeks before you remove the hive. IF you wait, most often you will get the queen as well. Done this many times.


Well, this morning I woke up and called a fellow bee keeper who lives near me and deferred the job to him because I don't even have a bee vac yet and didn't want to open that wall without being fully prepared.

If I would have read your post about doing it WITHOUT brood in the trap hive (and still possibly get the queen) before I called him, I may have ended up trying it that way.

I am agnostic about the whole idea that the queen can also be retrieved in that manner, but I suppose it's true since so many have claimed they've done it.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Pat Beek... Others.. The probability of getting a queen with the cone funnel method is virtually O%. In the early stages of a trapout, the queen is not going to come out for anything you put in your bait hive. This would amount to her leaving her established colony, which she is not likely to do. As the colony is depleted she may come out, still, very little probability she will go into the bait hive. Far more likely she will swarm, (abscond) with the remaining bees in the feral colony, when there is little to no honey, pollen, nursebees, etc to sustain the feral colony. At that point you may catch the queen in a swarm situation,or, you may not.

I have used the cone funnel method, many, many, years ago, and in a very limited number of cases, it is still a good way to do a trapout, but, by making your trap an intregal part of the feral colony, rather than detached from it, is a much better method. I would still use the cone funnel if 1. You cannot seal all entrances, 2. Height or other considerations make it too dangerous to mate your trap to the feral source. 3. No way to attach transition or trap, to the feral source. (You can be very creative). 4. No way to get a frame of unsealed brood. (This can be overcome by using the funnel in the trap and getting every bee that comes out and cannot get back in, same as the cone funnel. If you do this, it is the same principle as the cone funnel.

Trapping, as an integral part of the colony, will get you lots of bees within 24 to 36 hours. That many more more in 36 to 48 hours. There will be fewer bees as the days go by, rather than several bees at the end of a week or two. The bees are in a normal, natural situation. The trap is just another part of their colony. As you get three to four pounds of bees, move them, (I move just the frames, not the trap), and add a new queen. You get the right mix to start a new colony, whereas in the cone funnel method you get mostly field bees until others come out for cleansing flights or relaxation. If you don't need the bees, contact your local bee club and give them to someone. Contact your local school or 4-H Club and see if someone needs a colony for a project. 

If you are not familiar with this system, e-mail me at [email protected] and I will send you info and photos of traps in progress. (I will send to anyone). I don't sell this, it is all free. I like helping beekeepers as I enter the end years of my beekeeping.

cchoganjr


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> If you are not familiar with this system, e-mail me at [email protected] and I will send you info and photos of traps in progress. (I will send to anyone). I don't sell this, it is all free. I like helping beekeepers as I enter the end years of my beekeeping.
> 
> cchoganjr


Cleo, thanks so much.

I tried to email the address you provided but it immediately came back undeliverable.

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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Sorry.. My typing mistake. I left off the r in my e-mail address. It should be [email protected] I have corrected it on my post.

I won't be able to send until Saturday, I am in Georgia and will not return to Kentucky until Friday Night. I cannot access that file from here.

I will send Saturday Morning. Thanks.

cchoganjr


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## Nmace (Apr 4, 2012)

Mr. Hogag/Patbeek,

I can forward the files Cleo sent me for the trap-out I am doing if you will send me your email at [email protected], I will forward them to you.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

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Ah, I'm kind of kicking myself for not trying the trap-out at this location.

Well, I was also pressed for time at the time also. I thought I was going to have to leave for Texas, but that got postponed.

I have some old comb I could have placed in my top bar hive (as trap). I could have tried it that way and then just bought a queen if the feral queen didn't come out.

Would this have been a good plan? Because, again, I don't have an existing hive at this point to pull eggs/brood from.

And by the way, isn't it a risky proposition to bring naked brood/eggs to place in the bait hive? Won't their temperature be a factor? Do you throw in nurse bees from your collection as well to take care of them? I saw a trap-out on youtube the other night where someone did just that. He was filming a few fights happening from the nurse bees and the trap-out bees.

But again, kind of kicking myself for wimping out.

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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

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Regarding Cleo's design (of which I got the photos and directions - thanks !!), I would have to build a new hive that has the trap-out entrance made into it. I couldn't have gotten that done in time. I don't have the supplies right now anyhow. That's why I'm going to Texas - to make more money to be able to justify my new hobby.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

tedlemay said:


> i used a bee escape taped over the hole. Works well.


Is a 'bee escape' a general term for the cone or a specific design or product of someone here?

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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

bee escape is a general term for any device that allows bees to escape from a location into another, and generally not able to return. They are also used to get bees out of honey supers before harvest. Some actually fit into the oval hole in inner covers.

The one I use in the trap is called, a plastic "conical" bee escape, and normally used for the same purpose. You place a board with the escape in it between the honey supers and the brood chambers and as bees exit the honey supers through the escape, they cannot come back into the honey supers. I have never known anyone who uses them, but someone must, because there are different designs available in the bee supply catalogs.

No, it is not a problem to move brood without nurse bees. ( in fact, I don't recommend it) I have done it hundreds of times, never had a problem. Of course you would not want to move it at low or cold temperatures, but you can run the heater in your car if you have to. The brood can also be out for at least a few hours. I have had it out for 2 1/2 - 3 hours, no problem. 

Moving nurse bees would not be helpful. And possibly detrimental. The object of the frame of brood is to draw the queen and the nurse bees from the feral colony into your trap. When you set one up you will see how fast the nurse bees, fanners, cleaners, rush into the trap as soon as the brood is introduced.

Hope this is helpful.

cchoganjr


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

3 for 3 on cone trap out with queen so far this year. Working on the 4th right now. I will know in a couple of weeks. 
I do like the idea of making the bees enter the hive as Hogan explains. When I get a trap out that will support this method, I will surely try it.
The system is already built, waiting for the call.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Mr.Beeman said:


> 3 for 3 on cone trap out with queen so far this year. Working on the 4th right now. I will know in a couple of weeks.
> I do like the idea of making the bees enter the hive as Hogan explains. When I get a trap out that will support this method, I will surely try it.
> The system is already built, waiting for the call.


Did you use brood/eggs or just old comb? In your original post I believe you said you just used comb and no brood/eggs.

grrrrrrrr......I should have tried that !!!!!

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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Mr Beeman...That is good to know. How are you getting the queen with the cone funnel? Are you getting her at the beginning or at the end, and are you putting brood in your bait trap. I used the cone funnel for years but never had any success at getting a queen. Do you have to make the exit/entrance on the cone larger.

I heard from Brent Claywell yesterday, and he said he always installs the screen cone funnel inside the trap, and he has gotten the queen on both of his trapouts this year, he is going to take one more start, then stop for the year. I had just never heard of this. He said she came through the screen cone no problem. Good to know. You can learn something new every day from this forum. He said he was going to post his results soon on the forum.

I haven't done an elimination trapping in the past several years, so I don't even use the conical funnel in the trap. I just don't have the time for elimination trapping. I just take starts, so I let them come and go. If you want to get the queen the main thing is to get them using the trap as a brood chamber, and not honey storage.

For all of you that I have sent photos of the Horse Cave Tree trap, bad news. Someone took the four frames of bees in the trap, and then sprayed the tree and killed all the bees. I suspect they also sprayed my trap Luther tore everything down a couple of days ago. I had taken a lot of starts from that tree. The trap had been in place for at least 5 years. 

Thanks, Mr BeeMan. Your info is good to know.

cchoganjr


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Yes, screen cone funnel with a 1/2" opening. I can only surmise that the queen is one of the last to go. The nuc hive is placed beside the the cone funnel. The bees go back to their entrance and find the nuc. It does take a day or so for them to enter the nuc, but when they do the queen follows close behind, maybe a couple more days.
I didn't have any brood comb for these trap outs, but did have drawn comb with a little stores. All the trap outs but this last one (4th this spring) just "moved in" to their temporary home. I don't believe they had much but maybe some drawn comb. Then I trapped out.
This fourth one literally did swarm out after four days. They are now in a a two super hive. I will pick them up at night in three weeks.
I can't post pics here for some reason.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

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Mr. Beeman, how do you have all this experience but you don't have any brood/eggs laying around for these trap-outs? Is it just that you don't have any other hives strong enough at the moment?

So do you actually PREFER doing it without brood/eggs, or has that just been your situation when you did all of these trap-outs?

Cleo, that's HORRIBLE that someone sprayed those bees. Who has access to that property to where something like that could happen? Could they have possibly been an irritant for a nearby neighbor? Was it just vandals?

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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

As you could tell from the photos, the trap was right on the edge of a minor blacktop road. Been there 5 years, no one ever bothered it. There is a house about 65 yards down a dirt access road, and it appears that someone may have moved in it. Luther, (MY trapping buddy) talked to a neighbor and he said the bees swarmed onto the side of the tree above the trap. He said somone came by and got the bees off the tree, but he did not see him open the trap or do anything else. I knew the trap was full, I just had waited to go get them. When I did, my frames were gone, and there was not a single bee left in the tree. Had to be sprayed. Maybe the people who are moving into the house had it done. I don't know. It is about 15 miles up there and I haven't caught them at home, if they have finished moving in. Oh well, I had 5 good years, got about 15 starts, and lots of fun with them.

Mr BeeMan. With a 1/2 inch opening, do you have any problems with bees going back into the cone, and then back to the colony.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Here is the photo of the tree in 2011. Notice the road to the right, and a major factory in the distance.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

This is what the trap looked like about the first of June. I had gone to Southern States to get some Soy Beans, and I wasn't prepared to move them. I should have. When I went back a week or so ago, frames were gone, and the bees in the tree were all gone. 

I believe they sprayed through the transition from the trap back into the tree. We took down the trap, and I am not going to use the transition again. I will just build another one.

cchoganjr


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Pat,
I have only two hives started this spring... one Lang and one TBH. I wanted to see which style I liked best. 
I'd prefer to use eggs and brood IF I had them when performing a trap out. Just didn't have any early this spring, but did have drawn comb from an early swarm. I figured it was better than an empty box. I am an ADC (animal damage control) trapper as well as a residential/commercial builder. Trapping out bees is just part of the ADC work as well. Been doing it for a few years! lol

Cleo,
My cones are typically much longer than normal. Probably around the 16-18" area. While they look really wierd, it gets the job done. To be honest, I've never seen one go back in. My best guess is that the bees have their access point down to mere inches and all the smells they know are emitting from the same location through the screen. I wish I could post pics!!!!!! My daughter couldn't even figure out why I can't. lol Send me an e mail if you would and I'd be more than happy to send some.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Mr.Beeman...My experience with the screen cone funnel has been that the entrance had to be down to about the size of a pencil, (perhaps just a smig larger) and fray the ends of the screen, to keep them from going back in. Large drones, and the queen, likely cannot come through it, but it keeps them from going back into the original source. If I set up another one I might try a larger entrance and see what happens. I posted that I received a call from Brent Claywell, and he said the queen had come through his cone inside the trap on both his trapouts this year. I did not ask how large his opening is. If I talk with him again, I will ask.

I have wished a thousand times that I had taken a photo of a trapout 5 or 6 years ago, where the bees had formed a chain, from the bottom of the tunnel, to the bottom of the trap, and bees were climbing this chain and going back through the little conical bee escape I put in my traps back into the tunnel and then back into the tree. I had left the trap in place for a few weeks, and they had found a way to defeat it. The entrance into the funnel is too small for them to fly into, and the plastic is slick, (I normally coat it with cooking oil also) and they cannot land on it and crawl back into the tunnel. But, they formed a chain and simply climbed back up into the funnel, then back to the tree. Oh the joys of trapping. I just don't have the time nowadays, and gas is so expensive for multiple trips if the trap is very many miles away.

cchoganjr


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

That would have been a cool picture for sure!
Most, if not all of my trap outs progression has been sent to my email addresss via daily digital pics from the homeowner. I literally set it and forget it! lol 
I make two trips:
1. To set the trap out.
2. To retrieve the set up.
Again, I do wait some time before I pick up.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

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Mr Beeman - here is my email if you wouldn't mind sending me a few pics.

Thanks so much in advance:

[email protected]

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