# Need to switch to Flash Formic Acid treatment at the tail end of OAV



## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I am on a 3 of 4 week treatment of OAV for varroa.

I had an issue with tracheal mites this springtime and wanted to do a flash treat to all my hives...but one hive I have been treating with OAV....due for the last tx on Friday... WOndering what would happen if I did a flash FA treatment on the beeyard including the one I have been treating with OAV....

ideas? concerns ( like hey you are going to poison your bees! )


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Nothing bad happened...I switched and the hives are still here, but it is fall and I am about to do my last OAV treatment.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I do not do OAV but drip. I wait for about another 3 weeks when mine are broodless but due to a record warm year I have been debating that schedule. 
Can I ask why you are doing it now? Are they broodless? Not criticizing but asking since I am questioning my own timeing.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

What is a 'flash' FA treatment, how does it differ from a regular FA treatment?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Flashmeans the formic evaporates quickly... as opposed to say MAQS that release formic over several days.
The normal method is formic first, followed by oxalic if necessary. Oxalic to be done when bees are broodless.

Jean-Marc


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

jean-marc said:


> Flashmeans the formic evaporates quickly... as opposed to say MAQS that release formic over several days.
> The normal method is formic first, followed by oxalic if necessary. Oxalic to be done when bees are broodless.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Interesting, this is the first I've heard of a 'flash' treatment with FA. Call me skeptical, but my brain says to me that in order for such a thing to have any efficacy, the concentration would have to be so high that the bees would be at risk. No? Yes?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Bees are always at risk wih formic. The concentration ued is 65%. Whether or not you have heard of the method , it has been employed by many for years and years with the usual pros and cons of formic.

Jean-Pierre Chapleau may have been the one who coined the term. He used the "flash" method in conjunction with his Apinovar bottom boards.
Others "flash" with mite-wipes, the meat soaker pads. The formic evaporates very quickly from the pads, perhaps not as quickly as with the Apinovar bottom boards, but that is where the term "flash" comes from. The idea is that formic evaporates quickly and then dissapates rather quickly from the hive afterwards.

Jean-Marc


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I do a flash after pulling honey. Funny thing about it is that I have been reading more and more that the formic does not get through the black brood comb as well. 
I have made and use 5 of these fume boards.
http://anr.ext.wvu.edu/r/download/37598
I have also been reading about just using pads with wax paper.
http://honeybhealthy.com/pads3.pdf
I have also found that too high of a formic concentration or applied in too high of temperature simply drives all the bees to beard on the front of the hive and it is not effective.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

jean-marc said:


> Bees are always at risk wih formic. The concentration ued is 65%. *Whether or not you have heard of the method , it has been employed by many for years and years* with the usual pros and cons of formic.


That 'sounds' a little snippy, I'm going to imagine that you didn't mean it that way. I was just admitting my ignorance, so that maybe I could learn something.



jean-marc said:


> Jean-Pierre Chapleau may have been the one who coined the term. He used the "flash" method in conjunction with his Apinovar bottom boards.
> Others "flash" with mite-wipes, the meat soaker pads. The formic evaporates very quickly from the pads, perhaps not as quickly as with the Apinovar bottom boards, but that is where the term "flash" comes from. The idea is that formic evaporates quickly and then dissapates rather quickly from the hive afterwards.


And now I've learned something, thank-you.

But I remain skeptical as to the efficacy of this method.

As far as doing it "for years and years", that does not amount to a valid argument- there are many things that many people have 'done for years and years' that don't actually do anything at all...people are funny creatures, they can be convinced to believe in things that do not exist, and cling tightly to those convictions despite there being no logical basis, and even in the face of firm evidence and reasoning to the contrary.



minz said:


> I do a flash after pulling honey. Funny thing about it is that I have been reading more and more that the formic does not get through the black brood comb as well.


I should think that it requires a certain amount of *time* in order to penetrate comb/cappings, so it does not strike me as unusual that you would read that.



minz said:


> I have also found that too high of a formic concentration or applied in too high of temperature simply drives all the bees to beard on the front of the hive and it is not effective.


Yes, and especially if the temperature is approaching the higher end of the recommended range. I have observed bearding at higher temperatures even with the provision of an extra box to increase the volume of the hive and give the bees some room for the first days of treatment.

I would fully expect that if applied at temperatures *above* the recommended range, bees and brood would die, because the higher temps cause the acid to evaporate at a higher rate and achieve too much concentration.

I usually try to apply when the temperatures are closer to the lower end of the range. I have also changed my method slightly, by packing the [frozen] MAQS in a large cooler with ice packs so that they don't get heated up in the sun...when I only had two hives it wasn't such a big deal, but now that it can take me several hours to inspect and place treatments it requires more consideration. My nose tells me that formic can get a bit harsh when it sits in the sun for a while.

I wonder if anyone has done any studies, on the length of time it takes for a mite to die at specific temperatures and concentrations of acid...


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Well it sounds like J-M is telling it the way it is. Doesn't sound 'snippy' to me.

Look up the studies, they are out there. U of West Virginia was one of the
first I'm aware of to detail the method, it's on line.
You could use the flash method and see for yourself.
I don't feel as if I can control the parameters properly so go with the controlled MAQS release. It's
not perfect but a better application method IMO because I don't lose as many bees and get good mite kill.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> I don't feel as if I can control the parameters properly so go with the controlled MAQS release. It's not perfect but a better application method IMO because I don't lose as many bees and get good mite kill.


My sentiments as well. It works, it doesn't require a great deal of time or effort (compared to some other methods), so I'll keep going with what works.

The interest in the studies, as relates to the particulars I mentioned, is just my over-active curiosity. Perhaps I'll have time this Winter to satisfy it.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

The U of West Virginia is another of the flash methods. The bottom line with formic is that it is imperfect. It is temperature sensitive. It is so sensitive. A little too warm and bees beard, too cool and the kill rate is not as effective as it could be. Then there are the slow evaporation rates and they they too have their pros and cons. Either way, varroa will get your colonies sooner or later. If you treat with formic you will delay the time when colonies will be at the "treat immediately" phase. Formic is far from perect but there is room for it in a well thought out IPM program. Better treat and get so so results than to angst over the "perfect conditions for a perfect application" and do nothing. I realize it is not one or the other but I keep reading about beginning beekeepers "hesitating " their colonies to death. Beekeeping is action not so much philosophical.

Jean-Marc


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> My sentiments as well. It works, it doesn't require a great deal of time or effort (compared to some other methods), so I'll keep going with what works.
> 
> The interest in the studies, as relates to the particulars I mentioned, is just my over-active curiosity. Perhaps I'll have time this Winter to satisfy it.


It's good to look into all of the available treatments as you never know when you may need to resort to something else. Those who ignore the other treatment options, at some point in time, will wish they hadn't. Know what the options are before you may need them and when one doesn't work for some reason you can save the bees most times with a plan B and no delay.

J-M: MAQS knocks down mites for me, it's not a so-so treatment. I use it as a primary treatment in late Summer with a November OAV followup.
Many years no spring/early summer treatment. 
Every treatment I've used is imperfect and the results need to be monitored.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I am pretty sure that a late summer MAQS followed up by 2 OAV treatments when they are broodless and you can get away from spring or summer treatment. The issues with the MAQS are weather related and with the queens. As long as beekeepers are aware of the issues and monitor post treatment all should be good.

I am in complete agreement with Clyderoad... monitor.

Jean-Marc


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