# sugar roll - zero mite count?



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>(turns out, bees can fly. who knew?)

Yup. It helps to put the sugar in the jar, then as you scoop some bees in, roll it around once to cover the bees and it keeps them from flying out of the jar while you scoop up some more.

And 1/2 a cup is probably plenty.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

If you want to check further 


Find a frame with emerging BROOD and look at them closely (watch for deformed wings) look for mites on the back of the bees also if you want pick them up by both wings and turn them over to see if mites are on the under side.Some cell can have mites in them and even on the bees and they will not have any deformed wings.


I don't do a sugar roll i just pick up 30-40 by the wings and look them over and keep count and get my Per cent from that also i will uncap some brood, worker and drone to give me an idea what is coming up later that might not show up with just a catch count or even your sugar roll.

Velbert


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## bee target (Jul 5, 2006)

something i was shown by a long time bee keeper was to pull a frame and locate a drone cell open it and look for the nasty mites feel free to check more than one cell , more than one frame and more than one super... good luck .


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

rache . . .

Counting mites on a sticky board is a lot easier than doing a "roll", and according to many sources, its more accurate.

> (watch for deformed wings)

Hopefully w/ proper monitoring and treatment, you will never see deformed wings. I had a hive that dropped well over 100 mites per 24-hr test and NEVER once did I see any mites on any bees.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

also some time the mites are between the segments on the side or under side and only sticking out about half out


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## rache (Jun 22, 2006)

i've never seen a mite on any of the bees, and we've watched any number of worker bees emerge. they only recently began building drone cells, so we haven't been able to check drone larvae yet. 

i asked in a different thread about doing drop counts with a totally open screened bottom board (it sits maybe five inches off the ground - can you get an accurate count with the sticky board exposed like that? we get a lot of ant/spider/other traffic under there, and it seems like it would screw up the board contents. does anyone do drop counts this way?


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>i've never seen a mite on any of the bees

You won't until you've got a big problem. As a way of counting mites, visual inspection just doesn't cut it. When mites are phoretic, they hang out mostly on nurse bees and slip in between the abdominal segments and can be very hard if not impossible to spot. When you see a mite on a bee, it's either just emerged from a cell, or it's getting ready to enter one.

>can you get an accurate count with the sticky board exposed like that?

I don't know. Probably not unless it's well greased up. You could always make a screened insert out of 3/8" thick sticks with screen on one side and plastic on the other, and slide them into the hive opening on top of the bottom board. That's what I do on hives without screened bottoms.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

rache,
I guess without defining "accurate", (it is not about that anyways), I'll add my comments.

Its about doing the same count the same way each and every time, regardless of a sugar roll versus a sticky board, and all the useless comparisions. If you pull a frame from the brood chamber, use a measure of 1/2 cup bees every time, shake the same, and then count the same thing, then the numbers being compared to each other is what counts. Are the mites increasing, or being maintained? Is the trend on average going up, to a level where intervention or additional treatments needed? Thats what you should be looking at. Whether it 0, 3 or 6...it means not alot unless you do the monitoring on a regular basis, and know whats going on inside the hive.

As a comment to zero mites, this is the first year success many beekeepers have. They install a package, find little mites, do not treat the first year, the bees come through winter, the beekeeper proclaims resistant bees and a wonder stock of bees to breed from, and then all the bees die the second year. The beekeeper than asks what happened. Well, your package was treated prior to shipment from most package producers. They were treated with some chemical strip or some other treatment. You may not treat your bees the first year, but they were treated just the same. The teatment prior to shipment, the broodless period with a up to a couple weeks with no mites being producer in capped cells, and other factors, all go into getting great low mite counts or even no mites being found with new packages.

Monitor for mites. You will see them soon enough. Assuming, and with no bad intent in saying this, that you know what your looking for to begin with.

I am kind interested in "rolled/lightly shook" means. You do need to knock the mites off. Putting them through a tumbling routine does not really do it. If your concerned with hurting a few bees, your probably not doing it correctly. Not to say you need to smash heads, but a good shake is needed.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>>>. i rolled/lightly shook them for a good minute. <<<<

With that method, you may keep getting 0 to few mites. The next time, shake them well, set them down for 3 minutes, shake for another minute, set them down. After 4 shakes and 6 to 8 minutes, sprinkle the sugar in a tray with a light colored bottom with water 1/4 inch deep. Then come back and tell us what you found.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I'm with Velbert on this one. Check the undersides of new bees, the ones that have just emerged. If the bees have mites, you'll see them.

Jean-Marc


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I guess I'm going with a procedure, information, and something a little easier than others are suggesting. I know the average beekeeper, or at least the majority, do not do weekly/monthly mite monitoring. Sometimes "KISS" works best.

I find it easier to teach/suggest/instruct beekeepers, and new beekeepers in particular, about sugar rolls and sticky boards. In comparision of telling those same beekeepers, about finding newly emerged bees, suggesting they handle the bees, actually having them find and identify mites on bees, and having them find the confidence to proceed and accomplish something on this level correctly.

And I would seriously doubt the consistant method of mite data collection from such procedures as mite counting from the underside of newly emerged bees. There are times that newly emerged bees could be hard to find. And to get a baseline number for comparisions, a number more than a few would be needed. I would think checking 50-100 bees would be needed for "averages" to mean anything. Checking the undersides of this many bees is time consuming and as already mentioned, something perhaps left best not suggested to beekeeper who either have not the time or skill to accomplish. Finding mites on individual live bees is not always "easy" as suggested. It seems we as beekeepers always want to make things way harder than it already is.

I suggested pushing sugar rolls in the general concept of this discussion knowing not everyone has screen bottom boards and mite trays. A sugar roll is what was used by the original poster, and is also something that every beekeeper can accomplish regardless of equipment options. It doesn't get any easier than that.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Hey Bjorn, we're pretty much in agreement on this. What are the chances of that happening, eh?

I'm not even sure how I'd go about checking the undersides of newly emerged bees. Pick `em up and turn `em over? With all due respect Jean-marc, this is not a method I've ever heard of before.

It takes some practice to do sugar rolls right, but it's pretty straightforward. The best thing about them in my opinion is the immediate results you get as opposed to doing drop counts which take at least 3 days to show reliable results: do a sugar shake, count the mites, make a decision, and move on. Sugar shakes are unique in that you're directly counting mites on bees as opposed to sampling "natural drop" which can vary for many reasons. The one downside to sugar shakes is they're somewhat disruptive- I don't think you want to be opening up the brood nest once a week and scooping up a half cup of bees... nor do you want to rock and roll your queen by accident









In any case, I think it is useful to have several methods of mite sampling in your arsenal. I personally use sugar rolls, sticky board drop counts, and random drone brood examination. By using all 3 methods, I get a sense for how they compare so when I see a drop count of X mites in 24 hours I might expect Y mites from a sugar shake or Z mites from drone brood sampling. I don't waste my time looking for mites on bees.

That said, I probably don't sample mites enough. Whenever I'm in my hives (which is much less often than last year) I always pull some drone larvae and try to do a comprehensive count, either sugar shake or drop count on a representative sample of my hives, once a month. No way do I have the time (or the inclination) to monitor ALL my hives though I'm trying to check all of them over time.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

hay Guys she was just want to know if there were mites she did not find them in the sugar row 


The other suggestions were just avenues to look a little deeper into seeing if they were mites

weather you count mites on the bees or uncap brood and check or use the sticky board


If you do sugar row and find high mite count
if you do the stick board and find a high mite count.


You can bet there is a lot more mites in the brood 

and if low mite count still a lot more mites in the brood.

No mite count Still more mites in the brood


Want to get to the heart of the matter to know the mite problem 

check the brood Uncap the brood that is on the dark side these are close to emerging.


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## rache (Jun 22, 2006)

thanks for the feedback, you guys. 

things i forgot to take into account: chemical treatment prior to package shipment, interruption in brood cycle. 

it's not that i expected to see a LOT of mites at this point, but i expected to see a few, you know? i just want to make sure i'm not missing anything. i'm planning to keep up with the sugar rolls, and to figure out some way to get a sticky board under there. at the moment, they only have a handful of drone cells, so i don't imagine checking them would tell me much. but i'll keep an eye out.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

rache . . .

You asked about the possible effects of placing your sticky board ON THE GROUND some 5" below the screen.

YES, ants or "something" could be removing the dropped mites. A sticky board is usually "enclosed" and only 1 or 2" below screen.

Have you tried to trim your sticky board so it will fit?









Not that I disagree w/ any of the above comments, but a STICKY BOARD count is BEST for NewBees


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## RAlex (Aug 18, 2001)

Seems to me that I have read on a couple of discussions on here that people have observed ants carrying off mites ? Anyone observed this in their mite counts ? ...Rick


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

For a rough and ready test, scoop out some drone brood with an uncapping fork, and see if they've got mites on. If you see larvae with several mites, you've got a fairly high level of infestation.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

My .02 as a brand new beekeeper. I did two sugar rolls. No mites found. I have a screened bottom board that came with a very inexpensive piece of foam board. I tried coating that with cooking oil and it promptly got absorbed. So, I just left if thinking that if I had no mites in the sugar roll, why bother making a board sticky that wanted to stay dry. Just for grins, I pulled the board this evening to clean the wax flakes and junk off of it and there, crawling around was a mite. Found another close to it although it seemed dead. So much for expecting to see mites in the sugar. I think it's time for a sugar treatment, real sticky boards and maybe strips if I have to. I can't give advice here...I'm too new for that, but I wanted to share what I found. Thanks!


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## Hook (Jun 2, 2002)

To do an accurate sugar roll, shake bees from a brood frame, preferably open brood, since this is where mites are going to mate and reproduce. Using a measuring cup, take 1/2 cup and put them into a Mason jar with screened top. Add cofectioners sugar. Add enough that all of the bees look like powdered donuts. If you don't add enough, you will not clog the pores of the mites, causing them to suffocate momentarily, which makes them let go. Then shake the miture side to side for at least 30 seconds. Shake out into something you can see the mites in. Look carefully, you will see them moving their legs after a while.

I have had 0 mite counts before. If you get more than 12, you need to do something. Anything less, the bees should survive the winter.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

My stste inspecter says that is why so many people get false readings from sugar shakes. He says sat the mixture aside for at least 10 minutes, preferably 15, shaking every 5 minutes. Then you will get a much better reading.

No, Dave W., I don't have it in writing. Just his word.


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## rache (Jun 22, 2006)

the second sugar roll i did, i performed like iddee described - leaving the jar to sit for awhile, shaking occasionally. by the end there was so much moisture in the jar that the sugar had solidified and it was kind of flaking off of the bees. got a zero count that time, too, go figure. 

ultimately i stuck to doing powdered sugar treatments, and just replaced the solid board under the screen for a few days, to do a sticky board count. averaged less than 4 mites/24hr. i guess i'll stick to doing it this way from now on, even though it's a big pain getting that solid board on and off again.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>No, Dave W., I don't have it in writing.

Ahhhhh . . . At least I have ONE of you guys "trained".










Note to rache . . .

>it's a big pain getting that solid board on and off again

Cant you place or insert a "sticky board" under the screened BB w/o removing SBB?


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## rache (Jun 22, 2006)

i leave the SBB on all the time, but normally it's open - no solid board beneath, i like the idea of the increase ventilation. i put the solid board back on to do the sticky board count, to keep it protected from ants and whatnot.


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

My hives are on cinder blocks spaced close enough together to hold a "sticky board" under the SBB. Is this an option?


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

rache . . .

Thanx for clearing that up. I read "getting that solid board on and off again" to mean something different










notaclue . . .

Doesnt your SBB have a slot or groove to accept a sticky board?


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