# Disoriented Bees



## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

CCD (Colony Collapse Disorder) is the disappearing disease you're referencing. It's been around for a NUMBER of years, but by different names. Fall Dwindle, May Disease, Mary Celeste Syndrome (my personal favorite!), etc. 

Likewise, this syndrome has occurred over a number of years, too. In fact, bee journals from 1869 indicate that something was afoot with the bees that year. This disappearance occurred again in 1891 and 1896. 1915 and 1917 were additional years in the states when severe bee losses were documented. The middle 1960's and middle to late 1970's also were years with severe bee loss.

Now, the obvious question is: How many wireless devices were around in 1869, 1891, 1896, 1915, 1917, etc?

See my point?

What HAS changed is the internet has "shrunk" the world and made our communication with each other INFINITELY better. We're now sharing information and can recognize that something is wrong. But, what exactly, we don't know. Hopefully, we can identify what the problem is AND find a solution before it disappears again for the next 10 years or so.

DS


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

It has not been proved that wireless devices affect bees in any way.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I have no experience with CCD... other than reports and studies from others... I see a lot of discussions about it on beesource, but not much mention of the recent theories of a combination of bacterial and viral infections.... what are some of your takes on it? Most of us here in the south have always just assumed that it was connected to migratory operations, just as it was connected to human migration in the past... I would love to hear what the other theories are.

Thanks!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Most CCD should probably be re-classified as PBD. (poor beekeeping disease)


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

pretty sure that a lot of the claims are either from that or LOU (Lack Of Understanding)... but I am sure that there is a real problem that some people are experiencing...

I had a fellow tell me that he had a horrible wave of CCD once in East Texas... I asked to tell me about the details and he said...

"I bought two hundred three lb packages and set them all up in deeps of foundation in my YARD in a soy bean field... went back the next week and only had 103 boxes with bees left in them...

 Drift.. Duh... asked him to check the others and he told me that they were over flowing with bees... didn't understand how they had "produced" three more lbs of bees in foundation in only a week... :doh:

Another guy told me a similar story of losing over 100 colonies to pesticides... exact same situation except it was on cotton...

I believe in some form of ccd... just not sure what to make of it because I don't know anyone personally that has actually had it... 

If anyone out there has seriously had a run in with it, I would love to attempt to work with them to figure it out and maybe get it resolved...

One of my student workers said that he saw a video of a guy that had ccd and he stood supers of honey from the "ccd" hives up in the yard, and the bees wouldn't touch it, yet when he did the same thing with honey supers from colonies that didn't abscond, they ate it right up... 

Haven't seen it for myself, but would like to know if this is the case... also would like to know if there are any bees at all left in the hives, such as the queen or drones... I can't see how crop chems can be the culprit if ALL of the bees are gone... foragers, ok, but queens and drones???

Thanks!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes you could have a point, I read one case where combs from CCD hives would not be touched by wax moths.

However those situations may be as simple as exposure to a pesticide.

So, there may be something to it, but it's certainly made murky by the numbers of claimed CCD that is really something else, that could actually be defined with thorough investigation.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Exactly... personally, I have heard about sixty plus stories, but all were explained quite simply... there may be something to the bacterial/viral infections... but extremely unlikely that something like that would only effect some colonies, some of the time, and how would it have spread to those colonies across the country, yet not effect the others in the same yards?? And if it were an infection, why would the bees not simply die from it, or at the least appear ill... from what I gather, these are all strong, swarm level colonies...


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

BigDaddyDS said:


> CCD (Colony Collapse Disorder) What has changed is the internet has "shrunk" the world and made our communication with each other INFINITELY better.
> 
> DS


Another thing that has changed is the easy movement of people and commodities around the world. This has spread pests, viruses and bacteria to areas where it was previously unknown. Varroa, Tracheal Mites, Nosema Cerana and probably several viruses came to the Americas, Europe and Africa from East Asia because of easy trade with that area. This is just a part of the consequence of our era. It effects many other plants and animals than just honey bees(for example: the blight that killed Chestnuts). 

Some hobbyists think they have CCD when they don't-they just don't know any better. But bee scientists have no doubt that CCD is real, they just haven't figured out the cause yet. It is certainly not cellphones. The current evidence points to a combination of several viruses with Nosema, stress of being moved often and possibly pesticides being contributing factors. Varroa mites come into play because their bites on bees leave an easy entrance for viruses.

I get this from reading ABJ, BEE CULTURE and Bee-L.

My opinion is that our honey bees will develop ways to deal effectively with the new pests and viruses if we help and not hinder that development.

Lawrence


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## dthompson (Feb 10, 2008)

There are 3 factors
>Varroa mites come into play because their bites on bees leave an easy entrance for viruses.
YES no mites before '87? so earlier instances were not so infective(hive level, drifting)
In a state of nature few hives are closer than 100yds
Globalization has increased in the last 20 yrs
USA is "special" with respect to the amount of migratory beekeeping
another country-specific factor, call it sub-golobalization. countryization?
I guess that my infection came with new Queen or attendants (80%)
(previous (to ccd) year WL (winter loss) was zero, pride goes before a fall)
Perhaps only 10 of us have "come out of closet"
I have a list of those reporting "likely" incidents
Best "end-user" description from a search of archives with these names
Most of these people are NOT newbees (myself+30y)
If you have never experienced it I can understand your disbelief,
but I, on this or the other board, have never knowingly lied and
corrected my errors when apperant
statistics suggest 10-12% excess mortality from ccd, ie 1/4M hives/yr
Whats a million beehives worth? A million beehives of suffering? (from the bug pt of view)
In the early days a common "put-down" was: Have you tested
The reply: Great, where? and test details please?
Deafening silence was always the answer
IMO rear leg symptoms is the answer but also a deafening silence there too
Since I know now how to keep ccd from becoming calamitous I've
stopped being so pissed off about it all, but I am rather disillusioned about
the general levels of competence recently displayed (past 4yrs)
Still called a "disorder", IMO is disease, specific pathogen, etc
It's a wonder its not worse

dave


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## dthompson (Feb 10, 2008)

See http://www.motherearthnews.com/natu...n=HE&utm_source=iPost&utm_medium=email&page=3

I don't entirely agree, my bees have had 4-5 tests for nosema (amongst other tests)
and have always been zero. I do AGREE that it is viral

dave


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Dave, 

Sorry for your troubles. Can you help us to better understand what actually takes place?

1. Were your hives left completely empty? (No bees at all)

2. Were they strong before the disappearance? 

3. How long between inspection of strong hive and noticing the hive was empty?

4. Was ant brood left behind? Was it live brood or dead brood and at what ages?

5. Was any honey or pollen left behind? Would the other hives rob out the food that was left behind?

6. Was the wax that was left behind used on other hives? What was the outcome of those hives if so? 

Thanks.


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## dthompson (Feb 10, 2008)

Rus, please search archives here and the other board for many details
This will be somewhat brief

1. Were your hives left completely empty? (No bees at all)
80% < 1cup on BB, 20% with small (grapefruit or <) frozen cluster
When warmer absconds essentially complete

2. Were they strong before the disappearance?
Nearly all made 2 boxes (or>)honey. Yes

3. How long between inspection of strong hive and noticing the hive was empty?
Depends on time of year. I don't like to break proplis seal after mid Oct
I am a northern bk (93-95 on warm-cold scale)
When warmer, 2 weeks 

4. Was ant brood left behind? Was it live brood or dead brood and at what ages?
Absconds late oct (or later) none
Absonds early sept some. Two age ranges
Largest group(80%) dead emergants, other group aprox time of sealing - 1day,+2days

5. Was any honey or pollen left behind? Would the other hives rob out the food that was left behind?
Yes, in many cases lots. usually no robbing
ccd does NOT effect earwigs, does badly effect ants but only for 1 year

6. Was the wax that was left behind used on other hives? What was the outcome of those hives if so?
Do you mean dead-out frames? They appear to be infective
The 1st attempt to re-populate always fail, often 2nd too, the 3rd makes a dink

See archives, here and bee-l

dave


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