# Why are Lang frame sides narrower at the bottom?



## Danpa14 (Jun 12, 2013)

So they do not get propalized together as bad and for easier bee travel.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

The sidebar shape you refer to is actually a Hoffman derivation of the straight sided Langstroth design.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Are they narrower at the bottoms or wider at the top?
I hear some refer to these as "self spacing"
"Self-spacing frames are credited to Hoffman. The real advantage of Hoffman frames is several can be picked up simultaneously with a single grasp."
Quote from Americasbeekeeper.com


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

ally said:


> I'm sure there's a good reason...


What you are describing are not actually Langstroth frames, but Hoffman style frames for Langstroth hives.

I don't know the rationale for the End Bars on Hoffman frames, especially deep frames, to be narrower from about one third of the way down, to their bottom-most ends. Perhaps it is recorded somewhere, maybe in the patent description. I only know that I never appreciated them being that way, I prefer mine to be perfectly parallel, so their is no gap between the End Bars, anywhere along their sides.


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## ally (Jan 13, 2014)

Joseph Clemens said:


> ...I don't know the rationale for the End Bars on Hoffman frames, especially deep frames, to be narrower from about one third of the way down, to their bottom-most ends. Perhaps it is recorded somewhere, maybe in the patent description. I only know that I never appreciated them being that way, I prefer mine to be perfectly parallel, so their is no gap between the End Bars, anywhere along their sides.


...and you hit on the reason for my question. I wanted full-width frame sides but every supplier I see only sells (what I now know to be) Hoffman frames.


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## ally (Jan 13, 2014)

I found these frame illustrations on Dave Cushman's site. I find it interesting that Hoffman frame widths start at 35mm (1 3/8"). Why not 32mm (1 1/4") for brood?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I was also frustrated by the lack of diversity of frame designs available commercially. I also, always thought it would be too difficult for me to make my own, but gradually acquired the tools necessary to make the process easy, now I make almost all of my own wooden frames (primarily 1-1/4" wide, and foundationless), with parallel, straight-sided End Bars.


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## ally (Jan 13, 2014)

Joseph Clemens said:


> now I make almost all of my own wooden frames (primarily 1-1/4" wide, and foundationless), with parallel, straight-sided End Bars.


Any pictures? I probably have enough woodworking equipment to make frames: router, table saw, drill press, nail gun, etc. Care to share your process?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Ally, you can read more about _Joseph Clemens'_ straight-sided frames in this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...=1061132&highlight=frame+sketchup#post1061132

The thread includes a [apparently non-functioning] link to a Google SketchUp frame plan in post #11, but here is one that works for me:
https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/mo...=c41738a156fbc4ecd27e267ef65bfd9b&prevstart=0


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I know a beekeeping couple from Poland the frames they make are an even with from top to bottom. They must manually get the bee space correct when manipulating the frames.


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## ally (Jan 13, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Ally, you can read more about _Joseph Clemens'_ straight-sided frames in this thread:
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...=1061132&highlight=frame+sketchup#post1061132
> 
> The thread includes a [apparently non-functioning] link to a Google SketchUp frame plan in post #11, but here is one that works for me:
> https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/mo...=c41738a156fbc4ecd27e267ef65bfd9b&prevstart=0


Excellent resources. Thanks.

Here's a YouTube link to Ryan Bekke making Hoffman frames from scratch. His method could be adapted for any of the frame styles discussed. http://youtu.be/FrK2mG44wpQ


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## ally (Jan 13, 2014)

KQ6AR said:


> I know a beekeeping couple from Poland the frames they make are an even with from top to bottom. They must manually get the bee space correct when manipulating the frames.


I've seen this before, but using screw spacers. The appealing thing about this setup is that it minimizes saw adjustments. 

Using 4 screws, all on the same side of the frame, put 2 on the top bar and 1 on the lower portion of each side bar. These spacer screws keep the frames parallel and provide adjustable spacing depending on whether you need brood or honey frames. Using screw spacers also provides very little area for propolis adhesion between frames.


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## cryptobrian (Jan 22, 2012)

I can see that a straight side would be simpler to make ... but that aside, why would you not want the Hoffamn style?


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

One can do straight sided sides if needed. If straight sided, the bees have to go all the way to the bottom or top of the frame to go to the other side. The side cut on the side bars gives them a short cut. They are going to propolize tha heck out of it tho!! Instead of just the top 3rd thats glued togather it will be the whole length of the frame. Speaking of propolis...thank tha Lord for it!! I went to move a hive the other night two feet forward onto a better hive stand I made. so while it was raining and all the bees were inside I quickly grabbed it and went to move it and the whole 3 tier high hive canted to the side about 45 degrees!!! If that hive hadnt been glued togather that thing woulda busted wide open, fallen to the ground and all in the rain and woulda been heck to pay!!! So for that one quick moment I was really glad the bees glue everything togather!!


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## ally (Jan 13, 2014)

cryptobrian said:


> I can see that a straight side would be simpler to make ... but that aside, why would you not want the Hoffamn style?


I like my TBH, but I have some of the usual issues: occasional broken comb, comb adhesion to the hive sides, and (worst for me) squashing bees between the frames during inspections. So I want to try frames. I also have this disease called an engineering degree that makes me question everything and over-think the prevailing obvious solutions.

I like to make my own stuff, so why fabricate some of the intricacies of the Hoffman frame if they aren't needed? I want to fully understand the design decisions of the Hoffman frame and determine if those features fit my situation.


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## Backyarder (Mar 25, 2014)

How's that saying go?
An optimist sees the glass half full
A pessimist sees the glass half empty
An engineer sees the wrong size container for the volume of liquid.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

To me, disadvantages of Hoffman style End Bars ->

- They swing and slap together when moving hives - injuring/killing bees and possibly queens.

<Parallel sided End Bars between 1-1/4" and 1-3/8" wide provide proper spacing of combs/frames, and cannot slap together as easily when moving hives, so as to injure/kill bees.>

- The wider part of the End Bars acts as a guillotine to bees positioned on the edges of End Bars - smashing and squishing them.

<Bees can always be injured if frames/End Bars are pushed together quickly, but if adjacent frames are lowered into position with the edge of one parallel sided End Bar held against the adjacent ones, most bees will be simply pushed out of the way, vs smashed/squished.>


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