# Incubator queens?



## Knisely (Oct 26, 2013)

That’s painful. Following to learn.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Why not simply place the cells in the hives / nucs?


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Well it was working to where I had an endless supply of queens for all my needs and no guess work on wondering if the cell hatched in a nuc.I could hatch a bunch and then replace queens without waiting and using up resources on nucs.Worked really good to start with till now.Its like something in the incubator is killing them when they hatch out now.It will get a real good washing before the next batch starts.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Do you have a humidity control?


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

I typically put the cells in a california cage and place them in a queenless hive just before they emerge (if I'm not just placing the cells in nucs). THey tend to take care of them better, though you still get some they don't take care of.

If emerging in the incubator, be sure to feed them immediately. They are hungry when they first emerge and you will have much better success if they are fed. If necessary you can put a piece of candy in the bottom of the cage they are emerging in. That helps not only in the incubator, but when emerging in the hive. A drop of honey may work better, but I have had some that manage to get themselves all covered.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I've not used an incubator thus far, but plan to - but from researching this method I've learned that supplying feed is absolutely essential (obviously), and one tip I've read is to place a single nurse bee in each cage to ensure that the emerging virgin makes initial contact with that food.
LJ


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I have fed right as hatching,added syrup to the upside down nicot queen cut and watched them drink from it.Humidity is at recommended.Temp is 94.1. The only thing I havent done is add a young nurse bee and that will be next.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I can't find the source of the tip I read re: inserting a nurse bee in the roller cage - but here are two similar links:



> https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?242647-Hair-Roller-Cages
> post #5 - answer is in BLUE





> http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/s...queens-emerged-2015/page8&highlight=incubator
> 
> Post #76: "I mix runny honey with fondant to make a thickish paste.
> 2 days is long enough in the roller *if there are no attendants.*"


Must stress that I have never done this myself - but it sounds sensible.
LJ


FOUND IT:

https://www.beekeepingforums.com/th...rom-using-the-incubator-raising-queens.11233/

AND ....
http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?1755-Queen-cell-hatching
post #1: "I recently grafted 15 larvae into cell cups. Eleven of the grafts formed good looking queen cells that were transferred to hair curler cages and kept in an incubator. Of the three queens that hatched, two died after a couple of hours and one survived." 

post #9: "... the virgins seem to be fine in a roller cage in the incubator for a few days as long as they have food.
* Even better if you put in a few attendants.*"


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Feeding them is one thing I do.Using the nicot hair roller stuff I use the cell cups for a few drops of syrup.I see them hatch and go down and drink from it also.The only thing that I know I havent done is add a nurse bee or two to the roller cages before hatching and thats what I will try next batch.I know one thing.A two deep with the top deep removed and all the bees go back to the bottom so it is crowded with bees will make a ton of queen cells!!!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

tarheit said:


> I typically put the cells in a california cage and place them in a queenless hive just before they emerge (if I'm not just placing the cells in nucs). THey tend to take care of them better, though you still get some they don't take care of.
> 
> If emerging in the incubator, be sure to feed them immediately. They are hungry when they first emerge and you will have much better success if they are fed. If necessary you can put a piece of candy in the bottom of the cage they are emerging in. That helps not only in the incubator, but when emerging in the hive. A drop of honey may work better, but I have had some that manage to get themselves all covered.


Excellent advice. 

I believe that incubators are often over used. I use mine quite a bit, but it is to improve throughput in the cell builder, not as a holding area of freshly emerged queens. I've found that letting cells emerge in incubators can be very tough on queens. The longer she's in it the greater the toll. When I REALLY need to get queens emerged and confined, I do exactly as Tarheit suggests and let them emerge in a queenless nuc. Honestly, unless you're making a lot of queens and your schedule demands such precision, I think you'd be much better planting cells, or at least using a queenless nuc.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I have started using my incubator for replacement queens.I can put in queen and not have to worry if it is going to hatch or not.I can remove a queen then put in a caged queen.Saves a lot of time and guesswork.I am not trying to save queens in an incubator just hatching them.I am tarting to wonder if there is something on my cages or the incubator that is killing them.Hatched 3 two days ago and placed in JZBZ cages and put in hives right after hatched.Two got a dab of syrup and the third a dab of honey.This morning I looked and all dead in cages in hives.


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## HONEYGUY1973 (Jan 31, 2018)

I think something is wrong is wrong with your incubator ! I have a homemade incubator out of a small fridge and never lose hatched queens .. What is your temp and humidity? Mine never gets above 95 degrees and stays around 48 to 69 percent humidity depending on how much water I put on the sponges .


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Mine is set at 94.1 and humidity 48 to 75 percent and thats like you say depending on the water.Problem isnt so much hatching its the queens dying right afterwards.They come out good and lively.I first thought something wrong with the syrup so made some more and same problem.Then tried honey and same problem.Then straight from hatching to queenless hives and still dying.Kind of like some ant and roach residue on my cages or something.Everything gets washed on next batch,incubator,cages and all.Even the table the incubator sits on.


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## Josh Peal (Apr 26, 2017)

snapper1d said:


> Mine is set at 94.1 and humidity 48 to 75 percent and thats like you say depending on the water.Problem isnt so much hatching its the queens dying right afterwards.They come out good and lively.I first thought something wrong with the syrup so made some more and same problem.Then tried honey and same problem.Then straight from hatching to queenless hives and still dying.Kind of like some ant and roach residue on my cages or something.Everything gets washed on next batch,incubator,cages and all.Even the table the incubator sits on.


94.1??
How are you verifying this? Anything less than a lab grade incubator is going to swing by several degrees. And that's assuming the control readout is anywhere near accurate.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Snapper1, Josh and I talked about some of this about two months ago. Ok, he talked, I listened and asked questions. Check out the conversation here.
https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?347085-Candling-a-Queen-Cell


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

JW I have read about keeping them at 93 to 95 so I took the middle with the 94. I will have some ready about the 8th and I will try them on 92 and see how they do when they hatch.Just like everything I do everything starts out perfect the first time and goes down hill after that.The first batch turned out perfect and thrilled the heck out of me.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

JWPalmer said:


> Check out the conversation here.
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?347085-Candling-a-Queen-Cell


A couple of comments re: that thread (which I'd not read before now):

The easiest way to reduce a 600W heater to 50W or less is to use an 'AC Universal Motor Controller' ex China, ex Ebay. These are essentially souped-up dimmer switches, usually rated at around 2KW - but I wouldn't trust 'em with more than a 1KW load. Better of course to use a more appropriately sized heater in the first place, but sometimes we just need to work with what's available ...
Simply wind the Motor Controller setting down until the Heater Controller operates at near-enough 50% ON/ 50% OFF to give the optimal wattage for a system using an ON-OFF controller.


I was a little concerned to read: "Notice the excess royal jelly; this is what you're after. Not an obscene amount of leftover but more than enough that you know she has yet to be hungry for a moment of her life."
Now I appreciate the spirit in which this was written, but there's an implication within that wording that the remaining Royal Jelly can be viewed as a convenient food source for the newly emerged queen. Royal Jelly was placed in the q/cell only to feed the growing larva, and during pupation the developing queen positions itself such as to eventually leave the q/cell head-first. If the queen should subsequently re-enter the vacated queen-cell in order to consume what's left of that Royal Jelly, then there's a very good chance she may not be able to back out again afterwards. For that reason, it has become standard practice to provide food external to the q/cell, and the q/cell itself crushed or removed as soon as practicable.

Apologises if I'm "teaching my grandmother to suck eggs." 
LJ


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## Josh Peal (Apr 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> A couple of comments re: that thread (which I'd not read before now):
> 
> The easiest way to reduce a 600W heater to 50W or less is to use an 'AC Universal Motor Controller' ex China, ex Ebay. These are essentially souped-up dimmer switches, usually rated at around 2KW - but I wouldn't trust 'em with more than a 1KW load. Better of course to use a more appropriately sized heater in the first place, but sometimes we just need to work with what's available ...
> Simply wind the Motor Controller setting down until the Heater Controller operates at near-enough 50% ON/ 50% OFF to give the optimal wattage for a system using an ON-OFF controller.
> ...


The video is of a queen cell that has not emerged. I'm certainly not implying that I intended for the queen to consume the royal jelly after emerging. I believe you're misinterpreting rather.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

snapper1d said:


> Mine is set at 94.1



My guess is that your temperature is too high. I set mine at 92 and put the probe* right next to the cells*. Like others, I'm using the Ranco controller and set it to the minimum of 1 degree F differential.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Josh Peal said:


> The video is of a queen cell that has not emerged. I'm certainly not implying that I intended for the queen to consume the royal jelly after emerging. *I believe you're misinterpreting rather.*


The Royal Jelly is there for larval development, yet you say "... more than enough that you know she *has yet to be hungry for a moment of her life.*" 

Perhaps you'd then kindly clarify how this wording - which relates both to the future and to hunger - ought to be interpreted ?
LJ


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

LJ, I respect both you and Josh so I'm jumping in to help with the clarification. The wording " has yet to be hungry..." simply means that she hasn't been hungry, relating to the past up to this moment, not the future. 

John


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## Josh Peal (Apr 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> The Royal Jelly is there for larval development, yet you say "... more than enough that you know she *has yet to be hungry for a moment of her life.*"
> 
> Perhaps you'd then kindly clarify how this wording - which relates both to the future and to hunger - ought to be interpreted ?
> LJ


little_john,

The video, in the thread which you are referencing, is of a queen _which has yet to emerge_. My comments _are in reference to said video._ "Has yet" refers to the past up until the present moment. It's essentially short for "has not yet" which is a bit more obvious. Where do you get any reference to the future from that sentence? You are clearly misinterpreting a very simple sentence... 
Just for reference; I've emerged and kept alive over 300 virgins this year.

JWPalmer,

Thanks. You have it right.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I have a hive that is rather temperamental and found about 15 capped queen cells in it this afternoon.I tore open a few and almost fully developed queens were in them so I cut out 10 and ripped the rest out.I will be putting in a good gentle queen in a couple days but I put these 10 in the incubator.Its set at 92 this time around and will only be trying to see how long I can keep these in the incubator.Not going to pass on these mean genetics to any of my hives.They will all die in the end.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

When I end up with more cells than mating nucs I put the balance into a cheap incubator. I use small plastic capsule containers with clip on lids, drill 3 x 1/8" holes in the lid one in the center and 2 closer to the side of the lid. So I push the plastic part of the cell into the center hole and clip it over the container and so put all the surplus cells into the incubator. I normally check every few hours when they are due to emerge and when emerged put them straight into a queen cage either the California or JBZ and take them out of the incubator and leave them at room temperature put a drop of honey on one corner and a drop of water on another. when I get a chance I give them 4 young bees and will easily keep them for a week. For feeding Doolittle used to wipe a little honey around the top of the queen cell so that the emerging virgin could get a little of this honey as she emerged
Johno.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I got the temperature down to 92.1 and rinsed all the jzbz cages in soapy water.These last queens hatched and got them in cages in queenless hive and are doing good.Two did die but my queen candy was a little too soft and they dug down into it and buried themselves.I moved them all into cages with no candy and they are fine.Its too bad those all came from a hive that had a bad temper.These are an experiment so they will die in the end.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

snapper1d said:


> These are an experiment so they will die in the end.


I'm currently doing the same. I'm working on using the same colony for acquiring the larvae, for starting and then for finishing them - purely by changing the hive conditions by removing the queen for a day or two - which might be an easier technique to employ with a one-box colony than setting up a Cloake Board, but we'll see. What I'm interested in is whether the number of 'takes' will be increased by using exactly the same bees throughout the procedure. I'm using a 'Grade 2' colony for this trial, so none of those virgins will ever get to be mated.

BTW - with my last batch of q/cells, which were roller-caged at around Day 14 in my 'natural' incubator (above a QX, above a Q+ve colony), on an impulse I put a couple of workers in each cage.
Now in the past, I've always had a few virgins which emerged ok, but then died afterwards for no obvious reason - but this time every single one has survived. I'm not drawing any hard and fast conclusions just yet - but I'll be doing exactly the same next time. Adding bees does make virgin emergence a little difficult to identify with so many bodies milling around inside the cage - but so far it appears to be worth that inconvenience.
LJ


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## BeeHiveGuy (Apr 16, 2013)

snapper1d said:


> I have fed right as hatching,added syrup to the upside down nicot queen cut and watched them drink from it.Humidity is at recommended.Temp is 94.1. The only thing I havent done is add a young nurse bee and that will be next.


I would go down a couple of degrees on your temp. They are obviously overheating and the smart thing to do is reduce the heat. I have a digital thermometer and hydrometer that reads 88F. I check it with a known more accurate thermometer and it is closer to 92-93F. It has nice big digital numbers, so I just set the cheap chicken egg incubator to 88F based on that thermometer. Even if you think your thermometer is correct, they are overheating, so drop 2F degrees. 

I mess with electronics and woodworking, so I will be building a pair of incubators that will have double thermostats and an alarm that will TXT me, humidity control, fans to circulate the heat, battery backup, etc... I will build them as a winter project. I have also thought about Rubik Cube size cages where I load up 50-100 attendants that support the cell and the possible virgin queen if she comes out earlier than expected. I would build in a screened honey and screened water trough that can be filled with a syringe from the outside. I have six 3D printers and have CAD skills, so production won't be a problem (OK, I am bragging... only 3 of the 6 are ever working at the same time).


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## pradeep (Nov 11, 2018)

I had 8 incubated, 3 of them I had accidently cut out some brood cells as well.The workers hatched before queen, and cleaned the queen on hatching.other 5 survived a day in incubator and then for 4 days in queen cages in a queenright hive above super,where the mother does not normally go and young bees feed anyone including robber bee that hv made in.After that all 5 died.The first 3 I gave to 3 queenless hives after 5 days .2 made it and r laying.Food was soft queen candy and sponge for water.Honey kills queens if there r no licking attendant bees.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

my understanding is that workers don't feed a newly emerged virgin and may not feed her until she becomes mated and starts laying.

i've had pretty good luck introducing newly emerged virgins directly into the hive. 

i did this by finding a frame of open honey, shaking the bees off, and placing the virgin on the open cells of honey. without exception the virgin would start gorging herself. 

if a stray worker or two was present they might come over and check the virgin out. sometimes the virgin would hunker down in submission for a moment but then all became kosher.

when i put the frame back in the hive i put it off to the side with the virgin away from the rest of the bees.

so far 5 out of 5 virgins done that way went on to become mated queens.


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## robirot (Mar 26, 2017)

I have two types of cages, one is the Zander style cage the other the nicot hair roller cage. 
The Zander cage is quite similar to the california style cage, just that it got a plastic back instead of wood. These got a 2 mm diameter 3 mm deep drilled recess at the bottom, which gets filled with honey or fondant, the nicot cages got recesses at the bottom too.

Fill them with crystallized honey, it will turn liquid in the incubator. Very important, put it into the hole and cut it off flush with the top of the recesses, if you messed around with the honey, wipe the excess of. Else the hatched queen will cover herself with it. 

This way the queens can survive long enough inside the incubator. I had one queen this year, that i missed to pull out, after 5 days she was still alive and happy.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> my understanding is that workers don't feed a newly emerged virgin and may not feed her until she becomes mated and starts laying.


I've witnessed many times while banking queens prior to II, that virgins are definitely fed prior to mating. In fact, this is one of my selection criteria. Those virgins that get the most attention while caged are given priority in my II process. I've even seen queens emerging that were being fed before they were completly out of their cell.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

AstroBee said:


> ... that virgins are definitely fed prior to mating. In fact, this is one of my selection criteria...


very good to know ab, many thanks for the reply.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Always assumed that workers feeding the queen upon hatching is what really seems to get her "energized" for lack of a better word. A virgin that hatches in an incubator without workers present will damage a few cells and just sort of slowly walk around while one that hatches in a builder surrounded by workers is quite peppy and can wipe out 50+ cells in a matter of hours.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

jim lyon said:


> Always assumed that workers feeding the queen upon hatching is what really seems to get her "energized" for lack of a better word. A virgin that hatches in an incubator without workers present will damage a few cells and just sort of slowly walk around while one that hatches in a builder surrounded by workers is quite peppy and can wipe out 50+ cells in a matter of hours.


Absolutely!! 

My Opinion: 
And the "energized" comment above by Jim Lyon is one of the major reasons I feel incubators are overused. They certainly have a place in a queen rearing operation, but emerging queens in them (without nurse bees) will not yield better queens.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

AstroBee said:


> Absolutely!!
> 
> My Opinion:
> And the "energized" comment above by Jim Lyon is one of the major reasons I feel incubators are overused. They certainly have a place in a queen rearing operation, but emerging queens in them (without nurse bees) will not yield better queens.


:thumbsup:Virgin queens usually don't live very long without nurse bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They need to have food immediately. Newly emerged virgins are frantically voracious. I put some crystallized honey in the crevices of the hair curler cages. You also need to quickly get them somewhere they can be taken care of before they die.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

AstroBee said:


> Absolutely!!
> 
> ...(without nurse bees) will not yield better queens.


 The queens compensate it probably later.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

sjj said:


> The queens compensate it probably later.


Not exactly sure what you’re saying? Are you saying that queens will eventually recover from the initial dearth of being foodless during their emergence and a period after? As I stated, this is my opinion and have no scientific data to back up this claim. I will say, that I was surprised several times that queens die pretty quickly when emerged in an incubator. Yes, I’ve killed my share of queens this way. From my perspective, we put SO much effort into creating great cell builders, selecting our best queens for breeders, and drone mothers, it just seems counter productive to allow a queen to start their post emergence in such an unnatural environment. Lastly, given the development cycle of queens (of course greatly accelerated wrt the other castes) it wouldn’t surprise me that the period during and after emergence might have an impact on the quality of the queen.


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

Why not use a queenless, free-flying colony as an incubator?? We use them all the time as cell builders/finishers...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

JoshuaW said:


> Why not use a queenless, free-flying colony as an incubator?? We use them all the time as cell builders/finishers...


That works until the last day. If you leave a 10 day old graft in overnight, expect there to be an early emerging virgin that can devastate all the other cells. If they are in an incubator an early emerging virgin does little if any damage.


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## robirot (Mar 26, 2017)

JoshuaW said:


> Why not use a queenless, free-flying colony as an incubator?? We use them all the time as cell builders/finishers...


A couple reasons for that.

A queenless colony loses quite a lot of bees due to drift. 
1 colony will most times yield just about 10-12 queens. Even it is double strenght they just leave a couple cells behind.
It is expensive on the resources. 

Way easier to just hatch the queens i a queen right colony over an excluder into cages. 

For bigger operations you run fast into the problem of not having enough hives ready to care for the cells you need. A incubating colony will yield about 10 queen average every 13 days. Nearly two weeks where your colony is bound to the spot and you can't do much with it. Thats why you use incubators. 
I raise about 500 queens a season, for that i would need nearly all my colonys full time incubating. With an incubator get them all incubated in 15 days using 30 colonys for capping. Last queen hatches after 18 days. 2 days of really a lot of work and two half days. The worst is to get 250 mating nucs ready on one day.


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## jkellum (Dec 29, 2016)

stl's please this sounds neat.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We run almost all 2 story queen right starter/finishers with a cloake board. It takes 2 solid boxes of bees and quite a bit of regular maintenance but in good spring conditions they will start 50 to 60 grafts every 5 to 6 days without a problem. If cell quality drops at all we let them rest for a rotation or two.


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