# Fall pollen substitute feeding, helpful?



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

They will put away a lot of pollen from the goldenrods, asters, and various other fall wildflowers as long as the weather cooperates. I don't do any feeding of pollen patties in the fall or spring and my colonies do great here in southeast Michigan. John


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

jmgi- thanks for the reply. I just want to make sure my colonies are in the best shape possible for overwintering. This past winter\spring tought me a few lessons.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

What you need going into winter are long lived bees. What you get from pollen substitute are short lived bees...


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

So basically, only use it if they are real low on stores? I recall a study that tested the stored fat levels in bees fed different protein sources. It seems like it was something like; pollen substitute produced about half the amount of stored fat in bees as did bee bread. 

Feeding substitute should be looked at as feeding your bees fast food, it will sustain them if they are starving but it certainly isn't good for them. Sound fair?


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

muskratcreekhoney said:


> So basically, only use it if they are real low on stores? I recall a study that tested the stored fat levels in bees fed different protein sources. It seems like it was something like; pollen substitute produced about half the amount of stored fat in bees as did bee bread.
> 
> Feeding substitute should be looked at as feeding your bees fast food, it will sustain them if they are starving but it certainly isn't good for them. Sound fair?


 Have you read any on Randy Olivers site ?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

What if the good pollen supplement you purchase is better nutritionally than the pollen available?
Not all supplements are equal, some have had alot of research done in their formulation.

Crazy Roland


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I find it hard to believe that natural pollen is difficient in the essential nutrients that bees need to be healthy, as long as they are able to collect all the various pollens available during the season. I have read somewhere that dandelion lacks one or more essential nutrients, and there probably are some others too. Bees that are moved around during the season to pollinate different crops may be the ones to suffer from a lack of some nutrients, as they are mostly exposed to only one type of pollen at a time for the most part all season long. Specially formulated pollen substitutes or supplements may be pretty close to natural in most nutrients, but I have to believe they are not complete either. John


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

jmgi,

Don't forget to consider that many of us keep honey bees in areas with the *potential* for a very wide variety of pollen and nectar sources, but they are very unreliable sources, because they are entirely dependent on infrequent and scattered Summer/Winter rains and temperatures. For instance, we had a few very nice rains within our forage range, this Summer, but where the temperatures usually drop subsequent to the rains, they did not, so the effect of the rains was entirely negated - hence no wildflower bloom and no additional pollen/nectar. Meaning an almost complete dearth of both nectar and pollen - continuing into the foreseeable future.


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

I feed Megabee patties in the fall made with 2:1 syrup and a bit of vegetable oil. My bees are all over it. I'd rather feed a pollen sub and know they have something, rather than feed nothing and not know. As stated earlier, pollen sources can be very unreliable and and nutritionally variable. I figure if the bees need it, they will consume it. My bee losses in the spring are usually 10%-20%. I don't think that is bad. We have been treatment free for 10 years and use open bottom and screened inner covers year round.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I have 2 choices. Feed or let them starve. 

I'm feeding. Drought and dearth plus pests equals dead bees, been there done that. Feeding has already improved the health of my hive, they are putting up sugar water stores, the queen is laying again, the varroa count has dropped with a little help from powdered sugar, I haven't seen a shb on my sticky board in over a week, and in spite of the robber bees, my bees were calm and happily working away last night. And the droppings on my sticky - one wax moth, I chased it out. No larva...


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

I have no doubt that if you are in a drought you must feed. I feel for you guys down south. I guess a more appropriat question is this:

What do you look for in a colony that suggests that they could use a little help from a substitute? How do you know that they are in need? i.e. 

1. Not seeing pollen being brought in for a certain period of time?
2. Only 1 frame (deep) of pollen?
3. Queen has shut down?
4. Very little worker jelly in larvae cells?


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

spunky said:


> Have you read any on Randy Olivers site ?


 I assume you are talking about the "fat bees articles". Yes, but its been a while. Time to refresh.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> What you need going into winter are long lived bees. What you get from pollen substitute are short lived bees...


But what would you get from a combination of pollen substitute and real pollen?

My guess is some long lived bees (those that ate pollen) and some short lived bees (those that ate substitute). Wouldn't that be better than just having the same number of long lived bees to overwinter?

What is the difference between "short lived" and "long lived" anyway? Especially in the winter?


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

muskratcreekhoney said:


> So basically, only use it if they are real low on stores? I recall a study that tested the stored fat levels in bees fed different protein sources. It seems like it was something like; pollen substitute produced about half the amount of stored fat in bees as did bee bread.
> 
> Feeding substitute should be looked at as feeding your bees fast food, it will sustain them if they are starving but it certainly isn't good for them. Sound fair?


I found the study I was referring to above and I was wrong. I just wanted to correct my statement. "Cremonez et al. (1998) fed caged bees various diets and used hemolymph protein titer to assess their quality, with higher protein titer suggesting higher quality. Six day old bees had protein concentration of 27.6, 24.1, 11.4, 3.98, and 2.2 ug/ul, for bee bread, soybean/yeast, pollen, corn meal and sucrose, respectively." Here is the linkhttp://www.extension.org/pages/28844/honey-bee-nutrition#2.8._Pollen_Nutrition_May_Play_a_Role_in_CCD


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

after reading this thread.... WOW


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I would have thought the King of sub feeder himself would have more to say than "WOW."


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>But what would you get from a combination of pollen substitute and real pollen?

I have mixed real pollen half and half with dry substitute and open fed it with acceptable results. But I have not gone under the half and half.

>My guess is some long lived bees (those that ate pollen) and some short lived bees (those that ate substitute). Wouldn't that be better than just having the same number of long lived bees to overwinter?

Why? I want bees to last to spring.

>What is the difference between "short lived" and "long lived" anyway? Especially in the winter? 

Long lives bees are still alive in the spring...


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

Specialkayme said:


> I would have thought the King of sub feeder himself would have more to say than "WOW."


Yes, my thoughts exactly! Anyone know of new research comparing the substitutes vs. bee bread, pollen, etc.?


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

Keith- why don't you have a link to the nutra bee substitute under your posts? Make it easy for your future customers.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Long lives bees are still alive in the spring...


So any bee that is fed on substitute alone will not make it to spring?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> So any bee that is fed on substitute alone will not make it to spring?


Specialkayme, good luck on this thread... you will need it.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

It was sarcasm Keith


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> It was sarcasm Keith


I know SKM, that's the only reason I posted.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Quote: Michael Bush
Long lives bees are still alive in the spring...

My take on this is that there will be very few honey bees alive in north Texas (land of heat, drought and wildfire) next spring, so why am I trying? Please correct me if I am wrong. I sure can't fabricate pollen.


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## johnblagg (May 15, 2011)

hmmm ever thought of using actual real pollen?


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

johnblagg said:


> hmmm ever thought of using actual real pollen?


Are you going to ship me some? Not within 100 miles of me is much to be found, my yard has flowers and garden. Fields of brown surround me.


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## johnblagg (May 15, 2011)

hmmm lets see I bought mine on amazon.com so I would hazard a guess that they ship it that far as well....


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

At the prices it goes for on amazon, I sure can't afford to feed all my hives with it.

Plus, if it isn't from a reliable source, it isn't much good from what I've heard. If it isn't fresh, good luck. The nutritional content decreases rapidly. If it is fresh, you better hope it isn't laced with diseases, or worse off, tons of pesticides.

Keith, sorry: I thought your post was meant as an attack. Often hard to tell on these sites . . .


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I buy stuff that doesn't matter much on amazon. Lots of PARTS. Consumables, like SKM said, could be laced with diseases, pesticides, or not even be pollen. Or chinese bee pollen...

But I did learn something. I had no idea they sold the stuff.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Re;
Feeding pollen substitutes in the fall.
Research and field trials have proven that the fall feeding of pollen substitutes is superior to spring feeding.
Please remember that the bees need ten known essential amino acids and fall feeding is one way to prevent winter losses.
Late summer and fall feeding is a good management practice.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Re: bee differences.
Physiologically there is a major difference.
"Skinny bees, cold bees and no bees"


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

Has anyone tried the Amino-B Booster? It says just 1-3 Tbsp. to a quart of syrup. It would be interesting to see the affect on those drought stricken hives in Texas. Anyone use it in cell starters?


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## johnblagg (May 15, 2011)

well since I needed some this spring or at least thought I did,I bought some off amazon ...high desert bee pollen from arizona ....which in fact lists those very reasons to be carefull when your buying pollen says its 100% american product and from the high desert .

As far as amazon goes so far I have never had a issue with anything I bought there after all it is not made by amazon its just resold basicly online by the people with products to sell.....


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Eventually my Mann Lake pollen substitute will show up. It's dry, so I can mix it. Should I start a new thread? If I need amino-B booster, or a vitamin supplement or anything else, realize unless a miracle occurs my bees will be totally dependent until spring. A recipe and suggestions are welcome. I'd rather have tried and true suggestions than mfgr's ad copy.

Amazon owes me $16 for 4 books they got paid for, and I didn't get paid for, in the 90's. Great place to buy, lousy place to sell, I get some things from them, but they are not my favorite retailer. Putting too many small businesses out of business, and a big time slow-pay to their vendors..


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

johnblagg said:


> ...high desert bee pollen from arizona ....


Cheaper than Brushy Mountain's, but still way too expensive to regularly feed the bees with. At least to me. I'd love to feed them fresh pollen only, but going bankrupt in the process would make some very unsatisfied bees (as well as an unsatisfied wife) in the process.

I really need to start collecting my own pollen . . . if a halfway decent pollen trap didn't cost $65.



Gypsi said:


> Amazon . . . Great place to buy, lousy place to sell


Bingo!

I sold some books on their (higher education books). One was sold for about $150. I sold it, and shipped it out. Amazon later took the money back, as the customer said he never got the book. They even took the shipping back (I asked them to at least not take the expenses that I had, but they refused). They didn't have any accountability to the buyer either. If they claim they didn't get it, you have to prove that they didn't (which is impossible). I was out $150 book AND the shipping charges.

Next $100 book I had to sell I got delivery confirmation, for that reason (I paid for it myself). Similar story occurred. They claimed they never got the book, so they took the money back. I gave Amazon the delivery confirmation number, showing that it was delivered to the address that I was given. Amazon didn't care, and they still took the money back. They said delivery confirmation confirms that it was delivered, not that the buyer actually received it.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

If I must sell something online, I use ebay. Even though I have been set up with Amazon since about 1997 or 1998, I don't sell through them. Ebay and paypal cut into the profits, but I'm just clearing out old stock, so I get space, and I get SOMETHING for my backstock. Beats Amazon. I use Craigslist and a bodyguard for big items.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I think people in pollen rich areas should all get those pollen traps. They'd make a fortune off Texas beekeepers right now.


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## beeherder (Aug 7, 2011)

I am new to beekeeping, but the fella I bought my nucs from said to feed syrup now, till the fall bloom, as long as the bees eat it, so they'll build comb for me and be ready for winter/spring brood rearing.
He said we have pollen all but december and january so that pollen shouldn't be a problem for me right now, just start collecting it late in the fall flow to feed back to them in the late winter early spring.
I live in a part of the phoenix area with alot of flowers and flowering bushes for landscape, so they are watered, by people, even if it doesn't rain, so fortunately I should keep my pollen up.

They werent' bringing much in, till I started feeding syrup, first 1:1 sugar, now corn syrup, both with HBH in it. Now they are alot more active, it seems, and I see white and yellow/orange pollen coming in.
I plan to seed with buckwheat and sweet alyssum when it cools down a bit. None of the seeds I've planted inthe last few weeks outside have popped, but my indoor under lights seeds are growing like crazy, just waiting for the weather to cool


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## beeherder (Aug 7, 2011)

My thoughts on Amazon.com, I charged a 'package deal' of 3 books suggested by amazon, that I did want, Hive management, Natural Beekeeping, and Honey Plants of North America, by Lovell. I received the first two books, knowing the honey plants book would be a later delivery when I purchased it:waiting:, but got a email 2 or 3 days back, about the time I expected delivery on the Honey Plants book, saying they weren't going to send the honey plants book, and that if the price was affected on the 'deal' that I would have to pay the difference for not meeting the price that made the 'deal' a deal. 
I went to amazon.com and looked, and they have the book they refuse to send me in stock, "only 5 left" so I don't see why they would reneg on the 'deal', other than to try to charge me more on shipping or whatever.
When I looked at their 'new History' area it didn't list my card being reimbursed or anything at all about the Honey Plants book, so needless to say I, on the buying end, and just as unhappy as you guys are with amazon.com, so don't feel so alone there.
I sent them an email today telling them what I think of their actions, and considering the book is in stock why I don't feel they are reputable for not honoring the arrangement *they suggested*, as in the 3 book bargain they suggested. 
I have bought a couple Bee Books from them, actually someone else got them there for me, that's where I started studying bees from, as well as my subscription to ABJ, but I will not be doing any more business than absolutely necessary with them anymore. I really hate disreputable, and especially unreliable business. I know, I'm in the wrong field if I want reputable, as in counting on things to happen with the bees, things to happen  but I expect more from someone dealing in a product such as books and magazines. I'll stop my rant now, for a minute...inch:


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I bet you could get that honey plants book real quick if you ended up quoting a few passages of the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) Article 2 - Sale of Goods . . . that usually heats a fire that gets things moving quickly . . .


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

as far as far as your original post fall feeding cannot hurt but would have a bigger boost in march & april if given a choice. sometimes normal sized clusters winter better than ones larger. no two winters are never the same. as far as goldenrod and aster pollen it has worked fine for years. again the bees know what to do.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

There is an article in ABJ, September 2011 issue, titled "Feeding Basics" by Roy Hendrickson. Page 840 reads:



> Most small beekeepers, new beekeepers in particular, tend to feed pollen substitute in the early spring in an attempt to stimulate early season brood rearing. Realistically, in most areas early season pollen flows are more than adequate, in both quantity and quality, to meet colony needs. Mid to late summer is the most important time to feed pollen substitute.


For what it's worth.


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

Yes, that was good timing. Thanks for all the responses.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Post #43 by SKM, very well said.


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## tkendrick (Apr 30, 2010)

Has anyone tried putting a patty on the bottom board instead of on top of the brood nest for ease? I just don't want to smoke the hive and take the supers off just to put a patty on the brood nest - perhaps just slipping it in through the front entrance. What do you'll think?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Quite a waste to feed wax moth larvae and perhaps even SHB larvae down there on the bottom board. Just feed frequent small amounts on top of the brood frames. Mine are consuming 1/2 - 2/3 pound patties in two or three days.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

JC is right. must be above the brood and you are in shb area. like he said feed in small amounts. If they are still making honey feed after you take the supers off.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Has anyone tried putting a patty on the bottom board instead of on top of the brood nest for ease? 

Yes. The bees treated it as trash.


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## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

I worked at Wenner Honey Farm in Glenn, CA from 1980 to 1982. It doesn't rain in the Central Valley for a good 5 months straight in a normal year. Clarence Wenner developed a pollen substitute that gave him very strong bees going into almonds and package bee season. He would feed in the fall and also in the winter. Before starting this feeding program, his bees would suffer fall collapse and he would lose almost all of the bees from his hives. The bees in Texas should do just fine on pollen substitute.


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

Anyone notice the 20% price increase of Megabee as compared to the price in the 2011 Dadant catalog? For 5# dry $16.25 vs. $19.50 now. Did all the supplements increase?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Megabee has been "out of stock" on Brushy Mountain's website for quite some time. I contacted them and asked when they would be getting more, and they said they had no idea. The rise in price might be a supply/demand thing. Supply has dwindled (for some reason).


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## mca429 (Jun 25, 2013)

How do you make the Megabee patties? .........thanks............mca429


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