# Applying Overwintering Nuc Techniques for the South



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I am interested in propagating some of my more mite resistant/productive bees going into winter, and while I've read the techniques geared toward Northerly climates, how does one apply these principles to a milder climate? I would imagine a scenario where a mild winter could leave them starving. What would be sufficient stores in such a set up? I would also be implementing the majority of this overwintering utilizing TBH equipment, either a hive with dividers or separate nucs bundled together. Any general ideas or suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Not sure about the top bar hives but Lang nucs that I have over wintered are treated just like regular hives, only on a smaller scale. I'll use one or two deep 5 frame nucs for brood and stores plus a medium 5 frame nuc box of all honey over the deep box(es). If I need to feed, I'll use sugar blocks or moist sugar over the cluster/brood area. Usually the medium of honey will get them through Winter.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Thanks Gary, this gives me an idea of what will be needed in terms of stores.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Same as Gary - But I use 2 each 5 frame mediums - full blown hives a single and 2 mediums as well (or a double deep)


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Thanks Sak. Starting to get a clearer picture. I'm hoping for a decent fall flow for our area as my plan for numbers kind of hinges on it. I'm always starting late to the race it seems.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

you still have plenty of time - that's what's good about the south - in 3 weeks I'll be splitting 2/3 hundred myself


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Wow, that's a lot of splits. About 197/297 more than I'll be doing.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

sakhoney said:


> you still have plenty of time - that's what's good about the south - in 3 weeks I'll be splitting 2/3 hundred myself


Hope that holds for NC as well. Just made up a Nuc from a supercedure hive yesterday. Everyone here says way too late in the season. We'll see. Looks like our dearth is starting to ease up a bit, and the goldenrod and aster should start in August.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Cervus - still got drones - it's not to late - may have to feed heavy - but it can be done - also on late splits and feeding - feed strong hives - when feed is in the comb - pull it and move to nuc


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

Yes, plenty of drones and a bee tree about 6-700 yards down in the woods. The virgin queen should have no problem finding dates! Stocking up on sugar now. This thread has me thinking seriously of overwintering nucs. Might be a good option for those hives that are just on the cusp of combining for winter. Smaller population, smaller resources, faster build-up in spring. Sounds like a great option.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

good luck to ya


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Same to you, and thanks again. I'm going for it.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

Nordak said:


> Same to you, and thanks again. I'm going for it.


Keep us posted. I'm very interested in your outcome. If I don't try it this winter, for sure next. I think our climates are sorta similar. I'm in SE NC. Coastal plain.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Nordak - I am just south of Sak about 20 miles and over wintered several two high 5 frames nucs and two 3 high medium 5 frame nucs last winter. Just watch stores in the early spring and feed if needed.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

cervus said:


> Keep us posted. I'm very interested in your outcome. If I don't try it this winter, for sure next. I think our climates are sorta similar. I'm in SE NC. Coastal plain.


Will do. Worst case scenario, I come out even assuming normal conditions. My bees seem to be pretty frugal so I think it could work.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i tried overwintering some nucs a few seasons ago. i had five them in single five frame deeps pushed together and insulated on top. 

four of them made it, but they benefited from resources reclaimed from dead outs that i had that same winter. basically they got transferred into ten frame bodies in january, and then got a second deep in february. in this case having interchangeable equipment came in handy.

i later decided that losses were low enough and so easily recoverable that i didn't need to overwinter nucs to keep my numbers at nominal.

i wanted to take some nucs through this winter but i ended up selling most of my queen cells and didn't make as many nucs as i thought i was going to.

i may try again next year, use what i need here, and sell off the rest so that folks can get earlier nucs.

nordak, try to have at least 2/3rds of the volume in each hive filled with honey. give them a chance to do that on the fall flow but feed if needed to get there. weigh the hives after the first hard frost, and then every 3 - 4 weeks after that to get a feel for how much honey is in the hive. mountaincamp sugar on top if they get too light. try to insulate the top somehow, and allow for ventillation at the top.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Square - what do you guys do on goldenrod in the fall - we get about 60 lbs in a good year


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

there's a lot of it around here sak, and they put up more in some years than others.

when i harvested some in the past it sugared after just a week in the jar.

most of it gets left for the bees, the earlier honeys are much nicer.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Sak - do you extract any of the fall goldenrod flow? Just curious. 

I had some strong tasting honey in one hive last fall.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

>insulated on top. 

I was going to say "way down there?" until I looked at a map of Jackson County. You're "way up there!"

Early, overwintered Nucs bring a premium price here, depending. Usually $15.00-20.00/nuc more than later spring.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cervus said:


> I was going to say "way down there?" until I looked where at a map of Jackson County. You're "way up there!"


yeah, and i'm on a ridge top at 1350' asl to boot.

after my first winter i noticed a lot of mildew on the underside of the inner covers. i started sandwiching a half inch of styrofoam between the inner and outer covers for winter, as well as notching the front and back of the inner cover, and that stopped the mildew.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

No on the goldenrod - beside it turning to sugar in a couple of weeks - smells and tastes like $hit


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> yeah, and i'm on a ridge top at 1350' asl to boot.
> 
> after my first winter i noticed a lot of mildew on the underside of the inner covers. i started sandwiching a half inch of styrofoam between the inner and outer covers for winter, as well as notching the front and back of the inner cover, and that stopped the mildew.


Wonder about insulating migratory covers on nucs? Kinda hard insulating those. The boxes I'm making up will have screened opening at the back/top with migratory covers . Wonder if the thermal mass of the 3/4" wood cover would be enough here? A quilt box would just be overkill down here.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Goldenrod only smells like dirty socks for a few weeks. When the honey is cured, it is a decent table grade honey. I rarely take any leaving most of it for the bees.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Cervus - I'm making both my tops and bottoms out of 5/4 treated deck boards - have not had a chilling issue with them and I over winter my honey supers on the bees as well.
Fusion - way back when I sold honey to the government through the ASCS program - they had it listed as baker grade honey


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

sakhoney said:


> Cervus - I'm making both my tops and bottoms out of 5/4 treated deck boards - have not had a chilling issue with them and I over winter my honey supers on the bees as well.


I saw that thread. Good stuff.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cervus said:


> Wonder about insulating migratory covers on nucs? Kinda hard insulating those. The boxes I'm making up will have screened opening at the back/top with migratory covers . Wonder if the thermal mass of the 3/4" wood cover would be enough here? A quilt box would just be overkill down here.


what you want to do is have the top insulated much more so than the sides. that way moisture will collect on the sides and run harmlessly down and out, avoiding the dripping down of cold water on the cluster.

my five frame nucs had migratory covers. i pushed the nucs together side to side, placed one piece of styrofoam across the top of all of them that fit between the end boards of the tops of the covers, and then put a second sheet of styrofoam over that letting it telescope all around. concrete blocks were used to hold the styrofoam down.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

sakhoney said:


> Square - what do you guys do on goldenrod in the fall - we get about 60 lbs in a good year


The way the drought has been, me and squarepeg won't get 60 lbs of goldenrod honey this year if we add all we both get together. The only goldenrod I've seen growing is runty. He's about 250 feet closer to the sun than I am, so it's bound to be worse up there.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Thanks for the tips SP, I am reconsidering based on some of your thinking as well as my own. I have yet to have a loss in the two winters I've had bees, and my thinking is similar that if I suffered a loss or two, I could easily recoup the losses come Spring. My worry is there are a couple of queens with new blood that have me impressed and I'd hate to lose the genetics from a winter loss. I'd also hate to lose two nucs of those queens...decisions, decisions.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

> i pushed the nucs together side to side, placed one piece of styrofoam across the top of all of them that fit between the end boards of the tops of the covers.

So you turned the tops upside down so the cleats were on top? i.e. l_____l. Never thought of that. Doh....


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

go for it nordak. get your colony count up to as much as you can afford in terms of materials cost and time to work them. survivor stock is precious.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

hate to hear that brad - I kinda depend on it for winter feed - but I don't cut them short just in case


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I think you're right. Safety in numbers.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cervus said:


> So you turned the tops upside down so the cleats were on top? i.e. l_____l. Never thought of that. Doh....


no, but maybe mine are made differently than yours. these are what i have:

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/product/NB-550.html


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> no, but maybe mine are made differently than yours. these are what i have:
> 
> http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/product/NB-550.html


Yes, mine are just solid tops with the cleats screwed in to the ends to fit down over the box. But I see now what you did. Thanks for the info.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I think we have similar mild winter climate condition.
Last year I put on early Lauri's sugar bricks and the store bought patty subs.
This was all winter long until the early Spring time when things are blooming again.
So will try again this winter hoping to get an early build up for the Spring expansion.
All nucs and hives survived including the breeder queen.


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## Hive5ive (Nov 21, 2015)

Hey All,
I'm in Virginia, we had a really crappy honey year here this year. The bees are doing well though. I've been resisting splitting one of my hives, I just figure it's to late. The hive is a real boomer. I'd have to let them make their own Queen.
BTW, I saw a post in here about making lids and bottom boards out of treated lumber. I think that is a no-no, that stuff is treated with arsenic if I'm not mistaken.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

i later decided that losses were low enough and so easily recoverable that i didn't need to overwinter nucs to keep my numbers at nominal.

That is actually an amazing statement in TF keeping.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

that, plus temperature and humidity are more easily managed in the 10 frame equipment vs. the 5 frame equipment.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

high5 - due to customer demand - the treated lumber I get no longer has arsenic in it - this is the old CCA treated lumber - and that's what the A stands for.
It is now MCA - stands for micronized copper azole. I have been told from the manufacture there are no study's directly on bees. So with that in mind I also wax dip my stuff. I think the dip will seal off the treated parts of the wood - anyway been using it for years and the bees don't seam to have an issue with it


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