# Why keep Bees over winter?



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Okay don't shoot. I know everyone does it and that there are reasons. i just wanted to start this post to see the reasons why since i don't know all of them.

First I was just reading that in colder areas of the country it is common to leave 100 lbs of honey on the hive for winter. Now lets say that Honey sells for no more than $5 a lb . that means your hive cost you $500 to keep over the winter. I see prices for honey way above $5 so hat means it is actually costing much more than $500 to keep your bees. That is pretty expensive. I don't know what a nuc hive costs but my bet is it would be far cheaper to just kill all the bees sell the honey, not worry about wintering over and just buying nucs in the spring to repopulate the hives.

Some holes I see in that reasoning.
1. getting the hives up to speed in the spring.
2. any development you have gained in the breeding of your bees.
3. Uncertainly in the availability of nucs.
4. nucs may cost more than I think they do
5. introduction of diseases and other things do to new bees, bad bees etc.
6. Bees are in enough trouble so why add to it.

I am sure there are plenty more. I am sure even I can come up with more reasons to pay the cost of wintering over colonies. I am interested in what those with experience have to say.


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## twgreen3 (Aug 22, 2008)

A second year hive will produce much more honey than a first year hive will produce. That is the biggest reason I can think of but I am sure there are more.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Honeyhouseholder gets rid of all of his bees every year. If that's the right person. He figures it's worth the trouble.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> First I was just reading that in colder areas of the country it is common to leave 10 lbs of honey on the hive for winter. Now lets say that Honey sells for no more than $5 a lb . that means your hive cost you $500 to keep over the winter.
> .


On that math thing...10 lbs of honey per hive at $5.00 or even more per lb of honey...is $5.00 x 10 = $50.00 not $500.00...
Or not?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not to mention that 10lbs isn't enuf to winter bees on anywhere in the US. So if that is all there is in a hive, maybe you should take it. Or feed.


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## psisk (Jul 21, 2011)

It takes a lot more than ten pounds to over winter a hive, especially up north. I leave about 35 lbs. on mine here in Florida. On a good year they wont use it. But that at wholesale price is only about $50. 

Everybody cant get rid of thier bees every year. Somebody has to over winter bees for those Nucs and packages.


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## Jeff G (May 12, 2010)

It does take 100 pounds and he made a typo so it is around $500 worth of honey. Here in the midwest we leave the fall honey and it is mostly goldenrod and the taste is ofensive to most so it is hard to sell, if you can and if you do you will loose customers. A good overwintered hive will capture the spring flow and you can't do that with a package. Plus it is tradition like everything else we do.lol


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I imagine that 10 lbs was a typo. So 100 lbs. to be left on. The >$5 a lb is not a realistic net value of unextracted honey. Probably $2 or less a pound as is where is. For us in Canada a Nuc including a bit of shipping is close to $200. Closer to a wash but when you put in cost of treatments, feeding, winterizing etc. there is not a lot of money earned in keeping a hive over our 7 month winter.

I think what a lot of people do though is to substitute a lot of 50 cents a pound sugar for the 100lbs of honey so that sweetens the proposition a bit for keeping.

Philisophically though tossing the girls out to freeze when you are done with them, makes _yuh nuthin but a pimp!_ LOL! :no: You asked for it.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Um folks I really appreciate the pointing out the error. I corrected the OP to say 100 not 10. I am not sure it really takes all that much mental muster to have figured it out though.

As for second year hives out producing first year hives. They will have to do so by 100 lbs just to break even. this still leaves you in the hole any extra feeding and labor in care of bees over winter.

I have seen some numbers on bee production that compare bees on drawn comb to those on new comb or having to make new comb. not sure the terminology on that one. The production was higher by quite a bit, but not 100 lbs worth. Without other considerations the math could still be in favor of disposing of the bees rather than wintering them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel,
for this idea to work one would need to get package bees as early as is possible or there wouldn't be foraging bees in enuf numbers when the nectar flows arrive.

Look for Honeyhouseholders Posts on this subject.


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## sevenmmm (Mar 5, 2011)

I am not selling any honey. The honey is for the bees, but there is plenty extra for my canning and giving some away to a few acquaintances. 

I am more interested in honey bees that overwinter.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Crofter, LOL. I may be a pimp, but I'm a greeeeeedy pimp. Just kidding and the issue of they are your charges is as valid as any other.
So
Established hives out do unestablished ones
Depends on how long winter will take so some don't keep them.
Feed em sugar, As i understand it this causes some problems of it's own such as nutrition but I am not really clear on the entire issue here. but 50 cents a lb compared to even $2 a pound is alluring. another topic that can be looked at carefully. Is it worth having less nourished bees to save a hundred bucks or more? Is it easier to make a decision like that than to decide to kill off the hive period?
Wintering over is the only way to take advantage of early Honey flow.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Good discussion. I'm in the camp of overwintering, but it doesn't take 100 pounds for us. 50 pounds is more than sufficient.

I can't sell my honey for $5 a pound. Probably closer to a net of $3 at the most per pound.

My overwintered hives outdo my spring "refills" and our honey flow is early so I need a good strong hive to take advantage of this flow.

I've also found that when I want to buy some southern nucs to refill my winter dead-outs, the availablility is somewhat unpredictable and strongly subject to poor mating weather for the queen rearing. I can never get them when I want them. And they continue to cost more each year. I'm shifting to raising my own queens and overwintering nucs for my own needs.

Lastly, I find that if I want a monster crop of honey, I need to start in August in anticipation of the following spring. In August, I generally requeen, treat and feed as my honey crop is off and I start to get everything ready for winter. I let them keep the fall flow that takes place after Labor Day. Comging out of winter, I don't split in the spring like most guys do and work my butt off to forestall the swarming impulse. Difficult, but not impossible. Big hives bring in big honey crops. There's just no way to duplicate the overwintered hive's momentum when you set the stage with biennial beekeeping. Even an overwintered nuc does better than a split.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

There is more to the feeding than the price of the sugar. There is a fair bit of labor and equipment cost. If pollination income is part of the balance sheet or if selling bees is a factor then that would change advantage points. 
Up here if a person is raising bees just for the money he can net on honey and doesn't really like having bees then he is likely not good at math anyways. We really do have close to 7 months without nectar so it doesnt make cents anyway. I do think that in some geographic situations you could put figures together by valuing labor etc. and show an advantage for dumping bees in the fall but it would not work if everyone tried to do the same thing. Kind of like avoiding paying taxes.

The issue of getting good quality bees early enough in the season would necessitate mega rearing of bees somewhere warm and that could have issues of disease and loss of genetic diversity. Some things are hard to pin a dollar value on.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Daniel, I go way back to the days of how beekeeping used to be-B.M-before mites.....In those golden olden days ,people up north would do just what you are discussing-kill their bees off each year. Some even would reshake the bees and sell them back to people down south as a more humane method. Either way, the colonies were depopulated, all surplus honey extracted and brood combs with what honey was in them, stored. Then an order was placed with a reputable breeder of bees for packages. The northern beek would pick up usually a truck load of package bees and restock in the spring.....Now that was in the golden olden days of beekeeping. Now, there are getting to be fewer and fewer producers of package bees to restock hives with. Let alone beekeepers down here in the south land producing good quality queens. So the reality check is, if you kill your bees, you may not get them restocked the following year. I used to be a package producer but swapped to four frame nucs. Less stressful on the bees and myself. Even so, as beekeeping is today-DO NOT KILL YOUR BEES!! Mother nature may do that for you regardless on how good a beekeeper you are. And if that happens it might be impossible to restock with a package or a nuc from the southland. There are just too few bee producers producing bees anymore, that is the short and long of it. TED


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>First I was just reading that in colder areas of the country it is common to leave 100 lbs of honey on the hive for winter. Now lets say that Honey sells for no more than $5 a lb.

Unless I'm retailing that myself, it doesn't. And that require the work of harvesting, bottling, and retailing, so I can't say I MAKE $5 a pound.

> that means your hive cost you $500 to keep over the winter. 

A full sized hive doesn't eat all that in the winter. The majority of it gets burned up late winter to build up for spring and building up at a time when I can't even buy a package and those bees will be making a lot more honey than a package.

G.M. Doolittle used to winter bees in NY state on 27 pounds of honey a piece. But while that will get them through the winter, it will not get them built up in the spring.

>I see prices for honey way above $5

Not wholesale... maybe retail, and as I said, that is a lot more investment than just extracting it...

> so hat means it is actually costing much more than $500 to keep your bees. That is pretty expensive. I don't know what a nuc hive costs but my bet is it would be far cheaper to just kill all the bees sell the honey, not worry about wintering over and just buying nucs in the spring to repopulate the hives.

And I can make money raising the nucs to sell you... so how does that make sense. You could have SPLIT those hives, overwintered them and sold them for between $150 and $200 next spring. A package is now up to about $100 in my area.

>Some holes I see in that reasoning.
>1. getting the hives up to speed in the spring.

Exactly.

>2. any development you have gained in the breeding of your bees.

Exactly. I have quite a few years invested in breeding bees that do well in my climate and against the problems they face.

>3. Uncertainly in the availability of nucs.

Always uncertain as are packages but for that matter as are your nucs overwintering well... climate is always impossible to predict, but if you overwinter your own, you have one more fallback.

>4. nucs may cost more than I think they do

They vary. But a thrown together one with a southern queen that isn't established should be much cheaper than an overwintered one that is taking off. But it should also not make nearly as much honey.

You will be buying bees from sources that treat and breed bees that are only surviving because of treatments (wimpy bees) and getting mites and pests that can only survive the treatments by breeding at a rate to keep up (super mites) and queens that are bred to produce huge numbers of bees constantly so you can sell packages as opposed to bees frugal enough for your climate.

When it comes to math to show something as profitable or not, it often does or does not take into account the labor involved, the expense etc. If you have a sustainable system where you are not buying packages and queens and tons of feed and you're not having to install all those packages, make all that syrup, feed all those packages etc. I think you can keep more bees and make more honey than if you do all that extra work. And you have some control over things. And your costs are rock bottom.

G.M. Doolittle was big on being self sufficient. He made money on his bees from his first hive until he died. He avoided buying anything from anyone if he could help it. It seems to me that's the best way to make a profit. Minimize costs. Minimize labor. Be self sufficient.

That's not to mention I LOVE bees and want to keep them alive... killing them on purpose would depress me enough to quit beekeeping.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I am from a northern climate with winter 7 months out of the year. I will admit I have thought about shaking out all the bees, and last year i pretty much should have with the hit we took. But the reality is, that is not what keeping bees is about, really. NO offense honey householder. My job as a beekeeper is to keep these girls alive, cull out the free loaders and hopefully have bees to either split and sell or grow our operation next year. Yes, keeping honey on the hive is expensive. But that is where the math comes in and pricing out sugar, treatments, and wintering gear. It is also where one seriously looks at a hive in the last part of August and says...YES this one has the potential to live to spring, and NO this one will not. And the guts to dump out or combine the ones which are on the fence or will not make it. Why you ask...cause this is where you will loose your hard earned $ Wintering a dud will only cost. And if the dud makes it to spring and is only a couple cups of bees...still a dud and will not be a producer without more help than the rest...again costing $.
Now I think you mentioned the hive will have to make 100# the following year to break even. But you forget, that live hive will more than likely need to be split and split more than once if it is healthy. Nucs in Manitoba went for over $150 each. Singles were $200 each. So if you sell 3 nucs, or a single, or if you split 3x and had 4 hives, you are ahead of the game plan...before honey production starts.

Ted is right, you shake out the hives and you might not be able to buy back in the next year. Especially if the area losses are high. It will drive up the price due to shortages. Last year due to the heavy losses, Manitoba was scrambling to get packages. It was only through shear luck and a good supplier we were able to get the packages we needed to get back into the game.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

"Why keep Bees over winter?"

I dont want problematic packages. I dont want to wait till June for a package. I dont want southern stock. I dont want ahb. I dont want shb. I dont want poor queens. Syrup is not $5 a lb.

I want two deeps boiling over with bees in April. I want gangbuster queens from last summer splits from my best stock. I want to make splits in April. I want to make a harvest in June. I want to propagate from my best queens. I want to sell the guys who shake out their bees every year nucs. I want something to worry about all winter, lol.


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## frostygoat (Jun 3, 2008)

Simple. Monetary arguements are irrelevent. It comes down to taking care of animals you are responsible for.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

They are relevant to me!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

A much broader picture begins to emerge. Far more complicated that it first appears. I have not really wrapped my mind around all the factors just yet but am getting the basic idea that it is honey that is worth more like $100 to $150 if it is worth anything at all along with the labor and worry/ risk of wintering them against the value of the bees themselves. I am not sure I have an accurate picture of what the total value of the bees might be. So here is an example. A strong hive that can be split. the Nus hive can be sold for $150 and you still have a hive of bees to make honey. at this point the variables begin to make a figure fuzzy to get but it is still worth something. for now I will put a price of a nuc on it worth again at least $150.
So here alone something in the area of $100 to $150 worth of honey is invested in what could be as much as $300 worth of bees ???

And that is not even adding all the issues associated with trying to replace bees in the spring

Issues of character and morals you cannot put a dollar value on but they are a price as well just as surely.

The husbandry issues are extremely important to my thinking. I simply don't see how you could avoid back sliding by not selecting your best hives for being re produced each year. I am fairly sure you do not get top producing hives right out of the gate when you order packages and nucs. Certainly you may get a few but if you dispose of your bees every year what would it matter.

As I suspected the issue has many facets.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Put your ear against a hive in January when it is -20 degrees. Hearing the hum is priceless to me.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Dont forget to include the price of maqs, pollen patties, fumagilin, feeding, terramycin, apistan strips and whatever else is used in hives. I dont use any of it and probably dont always leave a 100 lbs. on hives, but enough of them make it over winter so I dont have to buy any packages or replace queens from treatments. It may be a matter of personal preference or maybe Im just a backyard beekeeper, but I have to agree with an earlier post there is nothing like hearing that hum at 20 below!


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Keeping bees over winter is not expensive. The bees collected the nectar and you say it is expensive keeping them overwinter? You didn't pay a cent for that honey.I do not let much honey stay overwinter because sucrose is cheaper and sucrose has more calories than honey. That way my bees could make it through the winter. 70% beekeepers in Canada use sucrose and wrap their hives well for overwintering. Before they all would kill their bees but now they find it is not worth to kill bees...especially since You can no longer import bees into Canada.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

frostygoat said:


> Monetary arguements are irrelevent. It comes down to taking care of animals you are responsible for.


not to make light of what you wrote, but...

Yes and no.

Monetary is irrelevant if one is not in it to make a living.

Monetary is relevant if it is your job, livelihood, and the bottom line. In the end an ag producer needs to pencil it out. Figure out how far the bottom like can go. How much is the producer willing to gamble. Taking care of livestock also means culling the dead weight so one can be profitable

Even though i do not agree with killing off hives for the winter, I applaud Daniel Y for thinking about it. Not on the idea of merit, but because it shows he is thinking about cost ratios, cost of production and profit and loss. It is this type of thinking which will keep the ag producer afloat not just in the good times but also in the lean times. Knowing the costs from A to Z will help when the times are tight and tough calls need to be made.


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## Me Beeing Me (May 27, 2011)

This may sound ridiculous to some, but what about the emotional connection you get with your hives? Or, the satisfaction that comes from knowing that you brought a small little nuc in the spring to a roaring, healthy 2 deep brood chamber that survived the winter. 

Those are intangibles that cannot be measured


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## kit (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm not into beekeeping for the money and I'm not an expert but I would have to think that if too many people were killing their bees then the sources for genetics could narrow and on a mass scale inbreeding could occur. If that happened it could mean serious difficulty in finding healthy bees. If that happened you could end up with no bees. Healthy bees in the environment seems to me to be an indicator of a healthy world overall. If you import your bees but everyone else killed their bees then in early spring if you want to breed some queens or the bees need to generate one there may not be drones from any other genetic lines available for them to mate with.
I realize you asking this question doesn't mean you are out to kill your bees so I'm not saying this to imply you don't feel the same but when I look at the bees I see them as my family. I couldn't kill them. If I killed them it would haunt me.
Kit


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## turboterry544 (May 29, 2009)

Daniel Y are we talking commercial or backyard ?
I have seen Honeyhouseholder work his bees on utube.com and he his selling them off this year and I think he was saying last year he got 165lbs of honey a hive and he pulls two time that's w a 2lbs of bees in April he must be doing some thing right.As for me I don't really know witch way to go keep em or kill em. I sure some of you will hate on me but's that's ok I wish you all the best of luck this winner


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

This is on queen rearing but it's the same point:

"At the outset, I shall undoubtedly be met by those inevitable “Yankee questions” - Does Queen-Rearing pay? Would it not pay me better to stick to honey-production, and buy the few queens which I need, as often as is required?

"I might answer, does it pay to kiss your wife? to look at anything beautiful? to like a golden Italian Queen? to eat apples or gooseberries? or anything else agreeable to our nature? is the gain in health, strength, and happiness, which this form of recreation secures, to be judged by the dollar-and-cent stand-point of the world?

"Can the pleasure which comes to one while looking at a beautiful Queen and her bees, which have been brought up to a high stand-point by their owner, be bought? Is the flavor of the honey that you have pro-duced, or the keen enjoyment that you have had in producing it, to be had in the market?

"In nothing more than in Queen-Rearing, can we see the handiwork of Him who designed that we should be climbing up to the Celestial City, rather than groveling here with a “muck-rake” in our hands (as in “Pilgrim's Progress”), trying to rake in the pennies, to the neglect of that which is higher and more noble. There is something in working for better Queens which is elevating, and will lead one out of self, if we will only study it along the many lines of improvement which it suggests. I do not believe that all of life should be spent in looking after the “almighty dollar;” nor do I think that our first parents bustled out every morning, with the expression seen on so many beekeepers' faces, which seem to say, “Time is Money” The question, it seems to me, in regard to our pursuit in life, should not be altogether, “How much money is there in it?” but, “Shall we enjoy a little bit of Paradise this side of Jordan. However, being aware, of the general indiffe-rence to Paradise on either side of Jordan, I will state that I have made Queen-Rearing pay in dollars and cents, having secured on an average about $500 per year therefrom, for the past five years; and that all may do as well, I proceed at once to describe the ground over which I have traveled, and tell how it is done."--G.M. Doolittle, Scientific Queen Rearing

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm


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## turboterry544 (May 29, 2009)

Michael Bush thank's for that post I got a lot out of


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Michael. I actually have read that before. I also read Scientific Queen Rearing. The subject of queen rearing is very interesting to me but I have a very long way to go to try my hand at it.

Just to clarify for everyone. I have and have not ever had any intention of killing my bees. I struck me that 100 lbs of honey setting in a hive when you have the winter power bill to pay must have some very good reasons to be there. There are other possible answers but it seems that nearly all bee keepers choose to keep those bees. Those reasons are what I am interested in knowing. Many of them I would be aware of with no comments at all. Some of the other reasons I would not have thought of.

In my opinion both development of your Apiary and your affection / pride in what you have accomplished are also very high on the list. A slight twist to the point Doolittle makes in the quote above. My wife is extremely expensive to keep, but I will anyway. In fact I may not even be a backyard bee keeper. I am interested in bees more for the beauty and challenge. for me any cost in keeping the bees is justified simply due to my desire to keep them.

As for the cost of the winter honey. Suppose I managed to find a swarm and needed maybe 15 to 20 lbs of honey to get them through the winter. Would it be unthinkable to find another Bee Keeper that might sell me that honey to get my bees through winter at say $2 a lb or so? Not including shipping of course. In the event I did manage to find a swarm I would really prefer to give them honey for the winter rather than sugar.

It seems some are on the verge of assuming my opinion on the issue. So that is not the case I will share this as my personal choices for now.

I would sell bees if I had to split my hive to prevent swarming. I may simply let them swarm and not bother with it also but that seems like a waste. The need being met is to prevent swarming not to make money. Heck I would give a split away to a local bee keeper. keep my source of strong queens handy that way.

I would prefer to feed honey rather than sugar even if it is cheaper.

My interest is actually more about building a quality apiary with well bred bees than it is in honey, wax or any other product. I actually have little interest in trying to produce honey to sell. I would use wax myself in candle making. And I would love to develop an apiary that has a reputation for producing quality bees and queens.

In short my interest is the bee. I suppose the cost would have to be unpayable in order for me to give them up in my case.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

This may sound crazy:


I do not believe the story that packages can not make as much honey as overwintered hives.
With good weather and proper management, we have been able split packages the first week of June and get a normal crop off both hives. 

All ethics aside, replacing your bees every year will make you very dependent on those replacement bees. We have noticed that winter survivabilty of a beeyard increases as 
time passes since they where established as packages. This seems to indicate that the descendants of package bees are better at wintering than packages. It can therefore be concluded that any operation that tries to suddenly wean themselves of complete spring replacement will have a tough time wintering for several years. They will have backed themselves into a corner. 

I also believe that eventually it will be determined that in an isolated beeyard, with good mite control(any method), that the mite population gets inbred, and looses potency, virility, lethality. Introducing packages into this environment also introduces mite that will breed with the existing mites and remove the inbreeding, increasing their vitality.

Crazy Roland


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Lost an ear doing that



Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Put your ear against a hive in January when it is -20 degrees. Hearing the hum is priceless to me.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

So I'll have time to learn their ways before spring? I really need the education I'm putting myself through.

Gypsi


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## smith (Mar 7, 2009)

For the last few years, the quality and availability of nucs and packages has been decreasing (quality in particular). That alone should answer the question.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

One thing only touched on here is the fact that one needs bees adapted to the local environment. We are lucky, we are starting to get more normal numbers of wild swarms appearing -- my beekeeping buddy hived four this year alone. They are locally adapted bees, he's not done any treatments for diseases or mites for 6 years, and has a dozen hives, more or less, with minimal care. 

You can only get locally adapted bees if you have local queens and local drones. If they survive well enough to swarm in the spring, they will be resistant to the common bee diseases and mites (tracheal and varroa), so that one does not have to treat for those things. Saves a great amount of money and bother. They will also forage at the correct times and store adequate honey and rear brood at the proper times for your climate.

His bees are mostly Italian, but there are some dark, small bees as well, so they are mixed race. He does not buy queens except in emergencies, and along with my brother, has not had swarming problems with his management style (although he's not home at typical swarm hours). 

We winter in two deeps, with the top one full of honey as a general rule. Take any of that, an one risks losing the hive as we occasionally get long, cold, wet winters. Not Canada style by a long shot, but cold and dreary. 

As for the economics, that's debatable, but certainly if one is renting bees for pollination, it will not be possible to supply bees in adequate numbers using spring packages. Further, hives can live on as productive "units" for decades -- before one calculates the "lost" revenue from overwintering a single winter, one must consider that the honey was free to you (the bees collected it) and that there is zero recurring cost to you for letting them do the same job next year. First year hives, unless supplied fully drawn comb, have to expend a good deal of their collected nectar in making comb, and storing and treating it to keep pests out of stored comb is NOT free, so say nothing of the work of keeping drawn comb on a large scale.

Packages are currently around $100 here (have not priced them for spring yet, as I want at least one more), so it might not be much of a savings to kill off a hive to spend $100 on new bees of unknown quality with a non-local queen!

There are lots of ways around this barn, but one should remember that in the days of skeps, only a few selected ones were killed out and robbed of honey, the rest were left undisturbed to make swarms the following spring. It would make much more sense to kill off some hives and leave enough to restore the full number with splits in early spring than to kill off the entire apiary. 

Peter


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

It is good to see that so many beekeepers take their role as stewards of their bees seriously. This is a sign that the industry will survive and beekeeping will continue. But if you kill your bees-it may not. Fellow beeks, as a southern producer I can tell you that it is real hard to produce bees for other beekeepers and replace your own losses. So Daniel, if you kill your bees, who do you think will replace them??? I would listen to Mr. Palmer. He can help you overwinter bees in cold country a lot better than I could being a southern beekeeper. Once again Daniel--DONT KILL YOUR BEES! TED


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Why keep bees over winter?
Because there is enormous satisfaction in success no matter what it is. Achieving sustainability is the utmost success in life.


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## onthekeg (Sep 19, 2011)

smith said:


> For the last few years, the quality and availability of nucs and packages has been decreasing (quality in particular). That alone should answer the question.


I'm a newb here, but if bees are similar to the other industries in the world, as I am assuming they are, (I have an Ag background), then money talks. Quality is there but you pay for it, everyone always has. The problem we are having now is that people can't get quality without paying extra or knowing someone in the business. I am sure its been that way for many years, quality is always separate from price. I will get off my soapbox about quality, its an old vocation. 

Sorry!~


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Not trying to criticize, just making an observation. I don't believe that the drop in quality is because of "shoddiness" or shortcuts on the part of the producers. It's because of the build up on chemicals in the wax, the narrowing of the gene pool and sometimes added to by just plain bad weather. I think they are all having the same issues so I doubt that "knowing" someone will help a lot. Of course, I'm sure some are using less chemicals so have less issues with that and some get lucky with good weather etc.


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## MethowKraig (Aug 21, 2011)

I agree with FrostyGoat. 

Beekeeping is a spiritual relationship with a life form that is foreign to the human mind. 

While I crush worker bees every time I put a lid back on a hive, I have never been able to pinch a queen. Never. She is sacred.

I tend bees. Which means I pay attention to them.


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## MethowKraig (Aug 21, 2011)

Actually that is not the truth.

I should have said I once did crush a queen and it has haunted me ever since.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

We need a Like button. I like MethowKraig's post.  I might pinch a bad queen, for my own good if she's hot, for the good of the bees if she is weak, but all life is sacred, including those short-lived worker bees that insist on moving between the box and the lid when I am trying to put it back on. (usually only one.)

Gypsi


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## onthekeg (Sep 19, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Not trying to criticize, just making an observation. I don't believe that the drop in quality is because of "shoddiness" or shortcuts on the part of the producers. It's because of the build up on chemicals in the wax, the narrowing of the gene pool and sometimes added to by just plain bad weather. I think they are all having the same issues so I doubt that "knowing" someone will help a lot. Of course, I'm sure some are using less chemicals so have less issues with that and some get lucky with good weather etc.


Thanks for the reason MB. I know that genetics, traits and production are a large part of any corporations goals in the livestock industry. Money is always an issue and I hope my bees aren't compromised next spring. I have actually thought of having a bee trap set up next year instead of buying some, not so much for the money of the package, just to say I did. Probably wouldn't catch anything though, that's why I can't fish.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

No one has really mentioned that there is no way to do Almond Pollination without a 2 story booming hive in March. CA packages don't come until after Almonds and that is because of almonds. If you want packages in the west there needs to be overwintered bee's so they can go to almonds and then be split.


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## Cris (Mar 10, 2011)

frostygoat said:


> Simple. Monetary arguements are irrelevent. It comes down to taking care of animals you are responsible for.


What he said.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Seems like all these arguments come down to 2 things. One being a monetary argument and the other being the caretaker of pets argument with many people in the grey area. If youre in it for the money, why would you do anything but the absolute minimum in work or feeding to keep your bees alive? If they can't produce what they need to in order to pay for themselves and the woodenware why not let them die? I have cats in my hog shed that are there for the sole purpose of killing mice. I dont feed them, when i do they get fat and lazy and watch the mice run rampant. When i dont, they either do what they do or they get cut from the gene pool. Then there's the hawks, the owls, the foxes, and the local dogs... The natural predators that thin the herd also make for the one mama cat i have that teaches her young to avoid said dangers and now I have cats that are adapted to my environment. If my dog didnt kill gophers and ground squirrels and chase off coyotes, foxes, and other dogs not to mention kill the scourge of rabbits we have, and eat them, I wouldn't have a dog. Analogously, if I kept bees for profit why would I want to feed them and treat them, expending money and labor, just so i could rob them then feed them again just to keep them alive. 

There's just no balance, the bees get robbed blind, treated for disease, then fed like crazy to sustain them then hope they make it through the winter. That's not helping to make a hardier bee. Seems like if the only money one put into bees was the woodware and the trip taken to rob them of their honey it would be a mostly profit kind of deal. The only other beekeeper in my area doesn't feed, doesnt treat, doesnt care until its time to migrate for pollination. He does his inspections before he migrates so he's in compliance with his polination contract, thats it. He also sells honey at this time of year and makes a decent profit from it. Even though he has a very abrasive personality, why would someone drive themselves and their bees into the ground when you can strike a balance between personal labor and expenditure and what the bees can produce. Now I do know what he makes from 1000 hives a year from honey, pollination, and packages (net) because his wifey tends to talk too much when shes been drinking. I wonder if other beekeepers make as much compared to his labor time and business costs with the same amount of hives. 

My point is this, from my observations beekeepers breed mostly for production and not for long term survivablility. Its a short term gimme gimme gimme and oh i hope they make it through the winter. I have seen several feral hives and they didnt have a sbb or a feeder stuck into them and boy, when we tore into the siding that was covering the comb there sure wasnt a lack of food. If you are in beekeeping for profit and your bottom line dictates that killing your bees is more profitable than keeping them over the winter the bees should be killed or at the very least released. If you want them as pets then keep them as pets, but if money is your motivator, you better do what money says.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

frostygoat said:


> Simple. Monetary arguements are irrelevent. It comes down to taking care of animals you are responsible for.


I read this one just about the time it was posted. I did not respond to it because I wanted to think about it for a while.
I don't really find this to be true in practice. But then maybe I have not seen much yet. I will put this request out there in the interest of learning.

Has anyone ever given a new bee keeper bees to get started free of charge?

I just built my first top bar hive. I am in Reno. Is anyone out there willing to give me a package of bees for the cost of postage? 

I will also add that although I do not think impossible, I do think it is very unlikely that request will be fulfilled. It has been my experience that nearly everything about bees is connected with someones monetary concerns. This group being the single biggest exception but not completely separate from it.

Another way to think about it. How many people would keep bees if there was no money in it? Again that answer will reveal the truth about weather monetary concerns are relevant. I simply find the quote above to not be true. I may even agree that it is sad. But it simply is not true.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

onthekeg said:


> I'm a newb here, but if bees are similar to the other industries in the world, as I am assuming they are, (I have an Ag background), then money talks.


Many things are marketed on perception. Price does not dictate quality. It use to but not anymore.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Another way to think about it. How many people would keep bees if there was no money in it?

G.M. Doolittle who I quoted, never failed to make a profit from the first hive on. He was very frugal and very careful. Would he have done it if there was not money in it? Probably for himself, yes. Maybe not for every one else.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

The competing philosophies seem to be analogous to the difference between beef cows and dairy cows.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

"Another way to think about it. How many people would keep bees if there was no money in it? Again that answer will reveal the truth about weather monetary concerns are relevant. I simply find the quote above to not be true. I may even agree that it is sad. But it simply is not true." 

Daniel Y:

About your above quote, yes, I am a bee keeper that does not harbor any thought of making a profit. I have read for years about the decline of honey bees, and we all know that is a bad thing. So, as a successful petroleum engineer that has made a few extra bucks, I decided to give something back. I bought three hives of package bees this year, and I will purchase three more next year. It is my hope to raise chemical free bees and let them swarm. In the process, I would like to harvest some honey for my friends and family. If someday in the future my hives were to produce more honey than I could give away, then it may be sold. That would make my CPA happy, as he is always wanting income to off set expenses. 

I don't know how many of us are out there, but there is one. I am 72 years old and probably won't continue bee keeping for too many more years, but my youngest son, who is an entomologist, will take my place.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Onthekeg, I can't fish either (every baby fish in the lake rushes at my hook, I catch one within 30 seconds of dropping it in the water, and some I can't free without injury), but i caught a swarm this fall. You can do it!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Lazy Shooter, Actually I would make two. Regardless of any assumptions made because I started this thread. I actually do not have any monetary interest in bees either. Actually right now I don't have any bees, but still I have no intention of getting them for any interest in money.

I am sure people keep bees simply for the interest of keeping bees. Other insects I can think of would be ants, They woudl even be more common among the younger crowed. Other animals I would consider when thinking of monetary issues really are not a concern woudl be. Dogs, cats, hamsters, guinea pigs, mice rats, ferrets, fish , birds, snakes etc. Pretty much your pet store line up and then you can expand a little bit beyond that. these are animals that are commonly kept by people with no monetary concern. I am also sure there is the Uncommon beekeeper that has them simply for the desire to have them. Doolittle, I would agree, even in his care of the bee he was above and beyond the norm. He payed meticulous attention and must have spent a tremendous amount of time devoted to understanding and experimenting with them. As far as I can tell he shared his knowledge fairly freely given the methods he had available. So I am not claiming that monetary concerns are true for everyone, just that monetary concerns are clearly present for the majority.
Monetary concerns then cause decisions to be made that are not in the best interest of the bee. Compounding this issue is that bees are a monetary issue that are associated with further monetary issues (agriculture) again a long list of choices have been made in regard to growing crops that the bees are then used to fertilize. this compounds the decisions that are made without the concern for the bee being foremost.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I see where you are going Daniel, and yes, these are valid points. Bayer's insecticide for corn that is damaging bees comes to mind.

I am a fishkeeper, by hobby and by profession. I do not sell 90% of the products sold for fishkeeping. Won't. Yes I would make more money, no they aren't good for fish. Neither are huge water systems, easy to maintain, highly profitable, expose every fish in the system to every disease in the system. The small pet stores have been driven out of business in part by the giants, and partly by the new diseases brewing in major fish harvesting areas, and commercial practices of large wholesalers. Throw in the economy, and I saw a 42 year old mom and pop store close last fall. 

Bees, Fish, Whales, dolphins, what are they, compared to the bottom line of corporations? 

I keep bees mainly so I will have tomatoes, and because it is a good thing to do. Honey- I have neighbors, 3 grown children, friends, helpers, if I ever have an enormous surplus I may sell a jar or 2. But I also keep bees because I enjoy difficult hobbies, I am a sucker for lost causes (there is no more abused pet than a fish), and I like bees. I researched fish diseases for similar reasons. You do know that no one ever buys a fish book, (except me). The fish all die, they just buy more fish.....

Gypsi (really wanted a head scratching smiley)


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Not to discourage you from keeping bees but tomatoes are one plant that is not dependant on the bees.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Given my lack of success at hand pollinating tomatoes last year, I'm sticking with the bees. thank you. How many years have you been gardening? And if the killed hive's poison honey killed every other pollinator in your area, can you produce tomatoes? Thank you Ace, your wisdom is really appreciated.


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## kldreyer (Sep 8, 2009)

Daniel Y:"Another way to think about it. How many people would keep bees if there was no money in it?"
All I know is that I have put a great deal of money *INTO* my bees, and haven't made a dime. A few thoughts, though, in defense of a money pit that stings:
1. I have great gifts of honey to give family and friends
2. The free sweetener from the yard gives baked goods to die for.
3. The bees I imported are helping this tiny little corner of the world flourish. My neighbors with vegetable gardens LOVE me, and I picked wild blackberries this summer the size of my thumb. Pre-bees, they were tiny, scraggly little things.
4. While I don't consider my bees 'pets' by any stretch, I enjoy watching something that I manage prosper. I HATE to lose a hive in the winter. I wouldn't kill them out of laziness.
5. the 'real' reason? I tried this beekeeper thing, and found it to be the most fun that I have ever had with my clothes on. What a great hobby!


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

kldryer - Ditto!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't mean to upset you Gypsi, but yes you can. Tomatoes are like corn, wind pollination. They are called self pollinators.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm not upset. Have you had tomatoes successfully pollinate by finger, feather or wind? Because you need to teach all the local Texans how this is achieved. Down here, no bees, (or wasps, etc), we get no tomatoes. Maybe your New York tomatoes are a different variety. Yankee tomatoes or something.

Gypsi

I've only been planting tomatoes in Texas for 25 years. Probably since you were 3 years old.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Northern varieties of tomato may not live to fruit here. 100 degrees in June is a bit much for those fainting pansy plants...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Tomatoes are tropical. They love heat but they need water. Any sign of cold weather and they are a gonner.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

How long have you been gardening?


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Bumbles work really well for pollinating tomatoes, I sell mine to a greenhouse that specializes in hydroponic tomatoes.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

We lost all bumbles, yj's, wasps, everything when the hive in the rent house was killed last June by the owner's pest control company. I am assuming the honey was poisoned. I hand pollinated my melons and squash, attempted the tomatoes.

Now, I stand corrected in yelling at Ace, the guy at my feed store just told me tomatoes are wind-pollinated - but that they won't set fruit in high temps. And if I didn't have a ripe tomato on one of my vines today, even though it has been 100 degrees for 2.5 months, I'd agree with him. 

I had no tomatoes from June to October last year, the temps were not as high, and in october it was green fruit even though temps had dropped 3 or 4 weeks before, a few ripened the week the hive was killed, none after, I picked them green before first frost. By October some bumble bees had found us, and this spring, mason bees turned up right after I got my hive. 

So while the official ag college line is that "tomatoes are wind-pollinated", in actual operating fact, I still say you need pollinators to produce a significant quantity of fruit. And further into the city, people plant tomatoes but get no fruit, ever, because there are no bees due to pesticides. Unless the wind hops over the city and just goes somewhere else. At the height one of my customer's garden is at, there is wind, and still no fruit. 

Gypsi


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The city has wind but could be blocked by buildings. That would make a difference. You can walk through your tomatoes or just shake them. Bumblebees and wasps do pollinated tomatoes more so then the honeybee. I really think the answer is water. The fruit is mostly water and the plant needs a ton as compared to other plants. I don't think 100 degrees is a problem for tomatoes but I could be wrong. I would consider planting more than tomatoes for the bees if you can.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

My customer's garden sits about 8 ft above his garage roof, on a hillside with sprinkler system that gets plenty of wind. 

Mine has north windblock pines and shrubs these days, which would be how I brought my tomatoes thru the week of sub-freezing cold that hit right after I planted them.

Water is provided. But I need to move on to other things. Thank you for all your advice.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

beekeepers overwinter bees to start out with strong hives in the spring. cheaper than buying. real simple. not sure what this has to do with tomatoes. typical thread lately.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why keep bees overwinter? Uh, because we are beekeepers? Duhhh.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Honestly bumbles, mason, leafcutter, and squash bees all pollinate their respective crops much, much better than european honey bees ever will. There is a trick for tomatoes though when it comes to putting on friut. I hang christmas bulbs on my tomato plants (they have to be approximately the same color as the friut) and it tricks the plant into putting on fruit. Its not a joke, it really works. I would just consider making habitat for 'native' bees (solitary bees) and let them do your pollinating. I only keep european bees to pollinate our mellon crops and to be honest, if and when I find a better alternative to european bees, my bees are going the way of the dinosaurs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You apparently don't understand the role of managed colonies in modern agriculture, if you think that native pollinators can cover the need. They don't.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

beeware10 said:


> beekeepers overwinter bees to start out with strong hives in the spring. cheaper than buying. real simple. not sure what this has to do with tomatoes. typical thread lately.


I fed the pigeon. Or was it the troll. oops.

And since I already directed the thread way off track, I wonder if I have any red Christmas balls? I gave the decorations all to my kids... Good grandkid project. But I've got ripe fruit now.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Acebird, There is a distinction between dependent and benefits. Very few crops are Honey Bee Dependent. very few that do not greatly benefit from their presence. Many things can pollinate but I think it is pretty well known that few if any do it as well as Honey Bees do.

I would find it interesting to see statistics of fields or orchards that had bees compared to those that do not. I know it makes a significant difference but do not know by how much.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, Daniel, according to a cranberry grower, it made the difference between 16,000 lbs of berries per acre and 24,000 lbs. He seemed to think that the bees made the crop that year. I'll take the credit for them.

Bees don't make the fruit, they just make the fruit better, more completely pollinated and therefore better looking and more uniform. More strawberry to the berry. Instead of caved in on one side. Same w/ apples.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

rwurster said:


> Honestly bumbles, mason, leafcutter, and squash bees all pollinate their respective crops much, much better than european honey bees ever will.


Takes a heck of a lot of bumbles to pollinate a 200 acre field of blue berries. We got a guy who tries to get his natural population of bumbles built up each year.. and each year he gets them built up a little and then the disappear. If you rent them, they seem to cost about the same as Honey Bees. But I will say this... they are tenacious little pollinators... in all kinds of weather! We helped a crew of Grad Students this summer, out in the blue berries... studying the difference in the pollination of HBees vs Bumbles... so we learned a little.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Daniel Y said:


> I would find it interesting to see statistics of fields or orchards that had bees compared to those that do not. I know it makes a significant difference but do not know by how much.


At least as far a blue berries go... the difference is in the size of the berry. Fields that are not exposed to bees have small fruit... fields that are exposed had much larger fruit. The small berries are graded down and the large are graded up. Has to do with the number of seeds that get"set" in the berry.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

None of the orchards around here use honey bees to pollinate their trees in the spring even though thousands of hives are available. They all use orchard bees which are quite easy to manage. And I do understand the role of managed colonies in modern agriculture as I'm a farmer who unfortunately has to use them for watermellon pollination. Now for Gypsi's needs, she would probably do better with an alternative pollinator and yes, they are fun to manage and quite honestly much easier to manage than european bees. There are many studies out on how many native bees outperform european bees on certain crops by 20 fold. Cranberry farmers are finding that leafcutter bees far surpass european bees at pollinating their crops. And yes, before i started with boring ol' time consuming euro bees, I managed leafcutters, masons, and even found a way to quadruple the amount of squash bees in a field the season before I plant pumpkins. I know I'm not the smartest guy out there but why would I use a euro bee to pollinate a crop that another bee could pollinate 5 - 20 times better? As I said before, I only keep my euro hives to pollinate watermellons. In 2 1/2 years they will pay themselves off and actually save me money after that ($3000 annually). If I had a better alternative to euro bees to use in my mellon fields would I use them? Yes. Do I understand the role of managed colonies in modern agriculture? Yes I do. My question to you is can you see the forest for the trees?


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I try to provide habitat for every bee but not wasps. Have some bee blocks to make for the bumbles and mason. I accidentally provide habitat for most anything. I grow about 7 tomato plants a year, (well this year anyway) I grow a little of everything, hummingbird gardens and all. Mini-refuge plus garden.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

rwurster said:


> None of the orchards around here use honey bees to pollinate their trees in the spring even though thousands of hives are available. They all use orchard bees which are quite easy to manage?


The grad students that were comparing our bees to bumbles thought they were about equal in pollination. The bumbles were slower, but kept at it in bad weather. They were a bit concerned about the size of the bumble and the size of the blueberry flower. Seems the bumbles were tearing the flower on some occasions. I do not know the final results of their study but they were David Tarpy's (NCSU) grad students.

We could pollinate with Bumbles too.. if their were huge advantages... catch is... they do not make much honey.


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## suburbanrancher (Aug 5, 2011)

Gypsi said:


> I try to provide habitat for every bee but not wasps. Have some bee blocks to make for the bumbles and mason. I accidentally provide habitat for most anything. I grow about 7 tomato plants a year, (well this year anyway) I grow a little of everything, hummingbird gardens and all. Mini-refuge plus garden.


Last year, I had over 24 monarch caterpillars on my TWO milkweed plants. This year I had 15 parsleyworms on my parsley (they become Black Swallowtail Butterflies), super cool.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rwurster said:


> My question to you is can you see the forest for the trees?


I guess not. Or, maybe we are looking at different forests. Please tell me how you see things. What you mean by your question. What am I missing?


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## kit (Jul 16, 2011)

I got some free bees with hive bodies once. I also plan to rear a queen and create a nuc for a friend of mine this coming spring no charge. I'll be paid by knowing he's enjoying the bees. The beekeeping group I joined is very much a generous type group. Members have shared extra queens and been real cool about sharing knowledge and helping eachother in lots of ways. I was almost surprised how non profit based the experience has been. Making money with bees is something I know little about really. When I read about the importance of pollination for sure I think there should be profit in doing it and same with large honey production. I could see working up a business plan and all that. I'm surprised true local honey doesn't cost more honestly. Killing the bees to save time/money never really crossed my mind until I saw this post. I could see selling some honey to maybe get some equipment down the road but before I get to that point for sure I'll just enjoy sharing it with friends and family first. 
On the topic of pollination. The house we bought had a fairly good sized grape trellace that my wife wanted to tare down. I re built it and the grapes used to get hard and kind of never do well for about 6 years it was always the same. The first year I had bees we had so many grapes I was giving them away. This year we had about the same harvest as well. Someone told me they were self pollinating but unless it's some kind of bizarre fluke which I wouldn't believe I'd say the bees had an excellent effect on our grapes. I understand wanting to maximize profits but killing bees to me aside from the occasional few that get pinched would be like killing people or something. It just seems wrong. I'd give them to the person that was wondering if anybody ever gives anybody free bees if I really didn't want them. That could be a solution This has truly been an interesting thing to ponder I can tell everyone here cares alot about the bees. It's such a great website. Beesource.com and the members are wonderful. Kit


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

The pollination info is interesting. May be why so many of my big beef tomatoes are producing golf ball size fruit.

By they way. That we are Bee "KEEPERS" and that it is "Just Wrong" are probably number one and number two on the list of reasons not to kill the bees.

Take the average bee keeper. they work plan hope and labor to keep the bees. Killing them is completely counter to the entire effort. "Say What? after all this get rid of them"? "explain in detail the exact nature of your brain damage please".

Other none emotional reasons do exist. but the investment made to keep them far out weighs the expense to winter them.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't believe the economic plan is to kill them. I thought the plan was to sell them at the end of the season. If they are not sold I don't think the plan works out to the positive. Maybe this should be clarified.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ace, My original post included killing them. I actually had not thought of selling them due to my own personal focus. I personally don't want to be bothered selling anything so my thinking doesn't go there. It was mentioned by someone else that selling them is a better idea. I agree since the bees themselves could be worth as much as the honey if not more.

I am just trying to stay with my original question so that people can continue to respond to it.

After all this discussion the reality looks more like a couple hundred dollars plus the labor involved is invested to keep about $400 worth of bees. Even with that some of that investment is recuperated in the spring. The cost is not as high as it might first seem.

I think if this thread was consolidated it has some extremely useful information for those learning the hows and whys of managing bees. I'm glad I posted it. I have picked up several things I had simply not thought of at all.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I ranch for a hobby. I'm semi retired and keep a few cows and the bees that I do not depend on for cash flow, although the cattle do provide me agricultural tax exemption for property taxes. I fallow plow land to raise sunflowers for the birds and small animals, and I plant oats in food plots for deer and turkey. Our current agricultural practices combined with the penchant so many people have for clearing the land of brush, has had a very negative impact on our native wild life. 

In keeping with the above explanation, it is my thought that we are all steward's of the land. My father was a fifth generation cattle rancher, and he told me we didn't really own the land, we were just using it and passing it along to the next owner. He told me many times, "make the land better than you found it." 

In keeping with all of the above, it just seems to me that we owe it to the bees to make them better. I feel duty bound to keep my bees through the winter and give them all the advantages that I can. This is just my opinion and nothing more.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Great question - albeit one I would never have considered even thinking. But I do think it is important to "think outside the box" and ponder things that first strike us as outrageous. In doing that we usually become firmer in our own convictions. 

But I will repeat what others have said, since I have two pennies laying around - my heart skips a beat to stand in the midst of twirling and swirling bees as I tend to the hive; as I watch pollen being dragged in by the bucket loads, just knowing how mighty these little worker girls are; that they construct comb in perfect little hex shapes; that the honey they produce has healing properties; that it can last 2,000+ years untainted! I have truly BATTLED to keep these girls alive and healthy. Yes, the hum in winter, the sight of a speeding flash through sunlight, my bigger, better crops... My zen. I could not possibly intentionally dispose of these bees. 

Kill the bees annually? 7 months of winter? I think I would just move!


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## suburbanrancher (Aug 5, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Has anyone ever given a new bee keeper bees to get started free of charge?


I got my bees for free, several times actually. I got 2 nucs and a package equivalent when the first nuc failed due to queenlessness. I plan to make a nuc for free for someone I know that is interested in bees, I'll be "paying it forward" so to speak. 

I have to agree that it does come down to taking care of what you have WILLINGLY brought into your life.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I could send you a package of robber bees for the price of the postage, but you have to come up with your own queen. (that is given that the current trapping experiment goes well, and no guarantees on their temperament.)

Gypsi
I did not get my first bees for free, however the gal that sold me the mite covered bees did warranty them out. She made money. We no longer do business.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Since this seems to go from an Economic explanation to an Emotional one, let me see if I can summarize the technique... as I suspect HH is tired of doing so.

Bees are shook out in the fall of the year and sold to some Southerner who has enough season left to get them started. This leaves HH with empty hives... all honey is extracted... no winter feeding.. no Meds. The trick is having a dependable source of package bees come early spring... and I gather HH does. Given that he is most likely the largest honey producer in his state... guess this economic strategy works pretty well.

I really don't know of anyone who kills bees in the fall... at least not since the Skep days... or since they closed the Bee border between us and Canada.


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## Danman (Jun 13, 2011)

rwurster said:


> Honestly bumbles, mason, leafcutter, and squash bees all pollinate their respective crops much, much better than european honey bees ever will.


I'm not sure what crops you are talking about- maybe something honey bees arent interested in?- but the noble foundation has done some studies comparing bumblebees and honey bees in hoophouse strawberry pollination and the bumblebees didnt even come close to the efficiency and thoroughness of the honeybees.


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## Poppi (Jul 9, 2011)

Wait a minute here folks.... don't forget if you overwinter your hives you get "FREE" bees in the spring and don't have to BUY new packages... besides unless you are beekeeping for a profit you do it for fun... and there must be a profit somewhere or you wouldn't see honey being sold....


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Poppi said:


> Wait a minute here folks.... don't forget if you overwinter your hives you get "FREE" bees in the spring .


That is just the point Poppi. It costs more to feed the bees, medicate, restock deadouts.... etc. Than it does to purchase package bees in the early spring. This is of course from the view point of the commercial guys who practice this procedure. Remember - every drop of honey gets sold... nothing is left on the hive. The guys who do this are usually in areas where a deep of honey is necessary to get the hive through the winter. They make a little bit too when those bees get shook out in the fall.

Oops... I see you did "qualify" commercial guys in your post. I should read slower. It's just that I have never heard of hobbyist guys practicing this method.... sorry.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Seymore said:


> ... that they construct comb in perfect little hex shapes;


Bees do not construct comb in perfect little hex shapes. Humans invented the word perfect and they decide what is perfect. In most cases perfection can only be attained by something man made. Most things in nature are not perfect because they are not man made. The irony is nature is perfectly balanced or will be over time.


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## EmBee (Nov 28, 2011)

"How many people would keep bees if there was no money in it?"

Are you saying I could make money from my bees??? :lpf:


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

EmBee said:


> "How many people would keep bees if there was no money in it?"
> 
> Are you saying I could make money from my bees??? :lpf:


I went into beekeeping with no expectation of making money. I have been hugely successful. My intentions were, and still are, to have some honey to give away, and to put some bees back into the environment. Once I start making some honey, I am going to let some of my hives swarm. Hey, I'm 72 and have been reasonably successful and the bees are a way for me to give something back. 

Lazy


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## EmBee (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm receiving my hive for Christmas & will populate it in the Spring. I never thought I could make money... it could buy me another hive!! Hearing of your success makes me hopeful. Thanks!


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