# Manitoba Honey Prices,.. Seriously??



## Hops Brewster

B grade. Now for A grade, I would raise my eyebrows.


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## Riskybizz

I sell wholesale to quite a few stores here at $6.00 per lb. including the jar and label. Net is about $4.56 a lb. Not sure what your considering A grade vs. B grade. Its not maple syrup. Most of our honey here is fairly light, but I have several customers that prefer a darker blend. And keep in mind its U.S. dollars. Its all very good honey.


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## CJK

I consider grade A the light amber colored honey. There is a color scale there too, yes?








$3.50 lb may as well quit. That's low grade and drive an hour each way to get it


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## CJK

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...=LhngVFuH6ArekwsdqkDlFg&bvm=bv.99028883,d.aWw


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## CJK

I agree risky, that's a better price for all your work


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## Agis Apiaries

I've seen a lot of people selling for cheep. I've seen people selling honey when I know they don't even have bees. I know people who will sell "local honey" that they got in a five gallon pail from somewhere else, and put in their own bottles with their own labels. When people start moving "funny honey" their prices really drop. $3.50/lb.? Ummm... no, I wouldn't eat it! Probably cut with some corn syrup or who knows what else.


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## CJK

LOL hahaha all kinds out there Agis. Oh Lordy.


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## frustrateddrone

Everyone has a reason. Just ask why the low price. Maybe they're getting the customer relations built up.


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## HiveOnTheHill

CJK said:


> someone is selling honey for $3.50 lb. B grade? Even if people supply their own container I can't comprehend that.


http://manitobabee.org/hive/category/honey-price/


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## Ian

B grade? 

Whats your honey house price?


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## CJK

$3.50 for a pound is FAR below what anyone should charge - even if they have own containers. Appears to be a remote area And would cost most people $20 return trip


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## Ian

Like out here to Miami? And my honey is premium , not B grade. 

Been in the business long?
Take a look at HiveOnTheHill's link


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## CJK

3.50 US is more that $3.50cnd. Not just in currency exchange either. 

This person in Miami Dade selling one pound honey with some comb for $15.50US. You're selling around $3.50? http://www.naturalbyeve.com/product/raw-honey-w-honeycomb-1lb

It's pretty dark too. Just sayin

Oh, here's an Allergy Blend. 1lb $8.00 (aka wildflower??) Still way more than $3.50lb http://beehavenfl.com/


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## CJK

ok Ian. Here is one person selling 60lbs of honey in Florida. $230 If it's picked up. $3.83lb. Straight from the fields of ... somewhere 

Here is another thread from 2010. Average price then seems to be $6-8lb http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?245319-price-for-1-lb-of-honey


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## JoshW

Ian said:


> Like out here to Miami? And my honey is premium , not B grade.
> 
> Been in the business long?
> Take a look at HiveOnTheHill's link


"No Name" honey at RC Superstore costs 9.99 per KG plus tax, liquid or creamed. Should premium honey not be sold for at least the same? This honey house price has been updated recently and it is still low in my opinion.


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## CJK

No they should not. First of all Superstore honey is not A grade honey. They may have be getting away with labeling it as such but it is not. It might not be real honey like the stuff sold in the US. http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/11/tests-show-most-store-honey-isnt-honey/ Super filtered with all pollen removed. Second It's most probably GM crop honey. Pasteurized. Which is not the same as Something 100% raw and almost entirely organic. It's probably Canola honey or Gd knows what mixed together for no authentic signature. 

Second. Who is selling them honey cheap enough to sell for $9Kg. You can not buy bees and equipment and medications and ever break even with such prices. 

Every other business under the sun is gouging people. Fuel goes up a few cents L / gallon and they charge 25% more. I'd recommend not doing pollination service for free either. Like many saps do

I also think $9kg is a sale price. Even still where are they getting it so cheap? What's it cut with?


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## CJK

Honey Laundering : Globe & Mail

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/tech...ures-golden-sweetener/article562759/?page=all


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## JoshW

One of the markets I attend has 3 beekeepers. My prices are the highest, I have the most hives. I have more of an issue with the imbalanced market mix than with their pricing. We have sold out every year before the next harvest, so my prices have been too low every year.

Several questions one should ask before setting pricing:

What price should I sell at so that my honey is available year round? If your sold out before the next harvest then you left money on the table and it is going into someone else's pocket while you turn away customers.

Will I sell more honey by having a lower price? If everyone in your area sells at $9 being the lowest at $8.50 will sell you just as much honey as selling at $7. If this is the case lets not be stupid and give away that free $1.50 right? also in my experience lowest price is not a selling factor to the majority of the general public.

There are those who sell wholesale and give their honey away at the farm gate if you pick it up, they don't have the time to market their honey the way you do as a small producer... take advantage of that. If they are selling at 3.50/lb at your local farmers market, do me a favor and punch them in the teeth, they are not doing anyone a favor with this, though it is a good way to keep small start-ups out of their area.

Just my blunt and honest opinion, of course I don't condone violence...


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## CJK

"Chinese honey meets the Canada No. 1 grade standards, but the grade doesn’t mean it must be produced in Canada. Consumers don’t know that Canada No. 1 is a grade and doesn’t mean it is produced in Canada, said Chartier."

http://www.producer.com/2014/07/sector-faces-challenge-of-cheap-honey-imports/ 

Beemaid is another taking advantage of producers


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## JoshW

CJK said:


> No they should not. First of all Superstore honey is not A grade honey. They may have be getting away with labeling it as such but it is not. It might not be real honey like the stuff sold in the US. http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/11/tests-show-most-store-honey-isnt-honey/ Super filtered with all pollen removed. Second It's most probably GM crop honey. Pasteurized. Which is not the same as Something 100% raw and almost entirely organic. It's probably Canola honey or Gd knows what mixed together for no authentic signature.


I advise my customers to stay well clear of those saying their honey is non-gmo/organic in North America. They are liars and crooks. And I prefer canola honey over clover personally for taste.


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## CJK

How are they liars and crooks if there are no crops around them for 3- 5miles? ok you sell canola honey.


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## JoshW

CJK said:


> Second. Who is selling them honey cheap enough to sell for $9Kg. You can not buy bees and equipment and medications and ever break even with such prices.
> 
> Every other business under the sun is gouging people. Fuel goes up a few cents L / gallon and they charge 25% more. I'd recommend not doing pollination service for free either. Like many saps do
> 
> I also think $9kg is a sale price. Even still where are they getting it so cheap? What's it cut with?


commercial beekeepers do it on half that, the argument is not valid.

Its not about what you can or cannot do with the money you get. Its about what people are willing to pay, and doing what you can with that. I did just fine last year at $9kg matching NN brand pricing. sold out early, so of course my price was to low... its higher this year.

And it was pure. Test it if you wish.


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## JoshW

have you looked what's growing in the ditches lately? Volunteer growth is not organic


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## JoshW

CJK said:


> ok you sell canola honey.


Yes and clover and sunflower and wildflower, was hoping for buckwheat, maybe alfalfa. My bees live in mobile homes, they get some mileage.


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## CJK

JoshW said:


> have you looked what's growing in the ditches lately? Volunteer growth is not organic


I don't understand this comment


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## Rader Sidetrack

The point of the "ditches" comment is that unless you own/lease the land in question, you do not control what potential contaminants (to 'organic' honey') are applied to the land in the bees' forage area.

How can honey meet any semblance of "organic" standards when bees don't care about property lines when they forage. It is very unlikely (in North America) that honey producers can control the so-called "chemicals" applied to the land unless they control said land. And roadside ditches have all kinds of contaminants from vehicles driving on those roads.

Note that honey pricing discussions need to consider selling wholesale in bulk (pallet loads / truck quantities) vs selling at retail in consumer sized packages. The wholesale price for large quantities of Grade "A" honey (in the USA) varies, but its reportedly somewhere around $3 per pound. Also note that Grade "B" honey (see post #1) is lower quality than Grade A honey, and sells for less money than Grade A.

Read about USDA honey grading standards here: http://www.honey.com/images/uploads/general/exhoney.pdf

My _understanding _is that Canadian honey grading standards are virtually identical to USDA standards, although I don't have a link to offer.


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## jim lyon

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Note that honey pricing discussions need to consider selling wholesale in bulk (pallet loads / truck quantities) vs selling at retail in consumer sized packages. The wholesale price for large quantities of Grade "A" honey (in the USA) varies, but its reportedly somewhere around $3 per pound. Also note that Grade "B" honey (see post #1) is lower quality than Grade A honey, and sells for less money than Grade A.
> 
> Read about USDA honey grading standards here: http://www.honey.com/images/uploads/general/exhoney.pdf
> 
> My _understanding _is that Canadian honey grading standards are virtually identical to USDA standards, although I don't have a link to offer.


I wish. If you have large quantities of white honey you would be hard pressed to find trailer load bids for much over $2.00 per lb. I will sell folks all the excellent white honey they want in 55 gallon drums for well under $3.00
http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf


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## Barry

I can imagine this has to be frustrating for you. I would put Jim's honey up against any other honey. Even those honey's that sell as "special" to the discriminating consumer. I've tasted quite a range of honey and yours is right near the top, just under mine!  I'm thinking I should go into the honey resell business and by a barrel off you. I could setup a webpage describing the unique floral elements/notes of your honey, print a unique label and charge $18 for a 1lb. jar!


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## Ian

I sell my honey for a bit more than $2 per lbs. wholesale. I also sell to neighbours for $3.5 per lbs honey house sales. I don't go to farmers markets and if I did probably would charge $4 per lbs. I know more than a few selling at that price still with their teeth... 

Way down here in Miami


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## CJK

I didn’t realize there were non land owners in the mix. That being said it’s illegal to set up within 1 mile of a honey house. So I have been told


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## JoshW

Ian said:


> I sell my honey for a bit more than $2 per lbs. wholesale. I also sell to neighbours for $3.5 per lbs honey house sales. I don't go to farmers markets and if I did probably would charge $4 per lbs. I know more than a few selling at that price still with their teeth...
> 
> Way down here in Miami


I believe your summer time is too valuable to be found sitting at a farmers market. $4 per lb plus packaging is a reasonable price for our area. Making more than that is Ok too. 

My frustrations come from the gentleman who complained about my pricing last year and then proceeded to stand in front of my booth and hand out cards to potential customers for a guy who would sell it to them cheaper. He is lucky he still has teeth. There is always that special person somewhere.

By the time prices of other people would begin to slow my sales, I will be large enough to sell wholesale. Packaging is a lot of work and there is value at a certain point, not to worry about it, you have to value the time you spend sitting at the market. Then again the pride in my product would keep me packaging anyway.

How is the weather down there in Miami?


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## CJK

and it's not frustrating I sold out 190ml honey for $4.50. and 375ml for $8.50. I have back orders. And back orders into next year. When I get larger I too will sell the garbage to PC for the poor consumers


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## JoshW

CJK said:


> and it's not frustrating I sold out 190ml honey for $4.50. and 375ml for $8.50. I have back orders. And back orders into next year. When I get larger I too will sell the garbage to PC for the poor consumers


Sounds like you didn't charge enough. That's the perk of having a limited supply.


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## Biermann

Hi CJK and Ohers,

I guess for money purpose it makes a difference if you get $3.00 or $4.50/lbs and the problem, I am sorry, maybe us (like me) small hive producers that do it more for fun than to earn a living and we should think about our pricing and its effect.

I run an export business (not honey, but peas to Asia and garden pea seed) and have never lowered my price but always improved quality and customer service and it has paid for us. 

Don't couch, but fair price and if you have employees and a lot of support you need to make money.

So, if the price in a glass is $5.50 -$6.00 why should not all of us agree? Is this price fixing, perhaps, but the Walmart selling honey today for $4.50.lbs and in February for $9.00 subsidies the low and couches the high, is that fair? 

A bottom sales price setting would be great, but good luck with that in our socialistic world.

Cheers, Joerg


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## CJK

LOL. I feel that our time is too valuable to let others sitting behind a desk get rich from our hard work. Beekeepers in Swan River found out what free pollination services do. Farmer got better yields and made much more while all their bees died. And I heard that in Roblin another guys bees were all wiped out way back in the early 90's. Probably form whatever was being sprayed.

So there is higher value depending on what they forage on. Healthier for the bees too


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## CJK

$4lb should be bottom price in MB


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## CJK

Have had enough of this thread however. There will always be a few who don't care what they bottle or what they get for it. Unfortunately.


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## JoshW

CJK said:


> LOL. I feel that our time is too valuable to let others sitting behind a desk get rich from our hard work. Beekeepers in Swan River found out what free pollination services do. Farmer got better yields and made much more while all their bees died. And I heard that in Roblin another guys bees were all wiped out way back in the early 90's. Probably form whatever was being sprayed.
> 
> So there is higher value depending on what they forage on. Healthier for the bees too


Most of the high nectar source crops in Manitoba don't need our bees. I am not pollinating, I am making honey and the farmer is doing me a favor letting me on his crop, in return his crops may marginally benefit. Don't bite the hand that feeds!


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## jim lyon

Barry said:


> I can imagine this has to be frustrating for you. I would put Jim's honey up against any other honey. Even those honey's that sell as "special" to the discriminating consumer. I've tasted quite a range of honey and yours is right near the top, just under mine!


Actually, it doesn't Barry. To me $2.00 per lb. is still manna from above. It was less than 10 years ago that I struggled to find a buyer at even $1.00 per lb. and this is for as good a honey as is produced anywhere in the US by just about any yardstick. Because it's the commercial producer who supplies the large packers, there is a tendency among the uneducated to assume there is something substandard about "commercial" honey (whatever in the heck that is) when, in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. The degree to which packers may filter it and cut it with other honey is beyond the producers control. It's the packers to market as they wish and to handle as they see fit and as their markets dictate. If the average grocery shopper understood that granulation didn't equate with spoilage I'm sure that honey packers would be more than happy to give them unfiltered raw honey and not have the inevitable headache of product returns. Trouble is packers that market large quantities in grocery stores have found out that the majority of their customers want the convenience of easy to dispense clear, liquid honey and will shy away from purchasing jars that are granulated and that means using lots of heat and good filtration. One thing, though, I think is pretty safe to assume is that the larger the packer, the more concerned they are with product liability. Most have quite strict testing standards and also require signed certificates of origin.


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## Ian

JoshW said:


> I believe your summer time is too valuable to be found sitting at a farmers market. $4 per lb plus packaging is a reasonable price for our area. Making more than that is Ok too.
> 
> My frustrations come from the gentleman who complained about my pricing last year and then proceeded to stand in front of my booth and hand out cards to potential customers for a guy who would sell it to them cheaper. He is lucky he still has teeth. There is always that special person somewhere.
> 
> By the time prices of other people would begin to slow my sales, I will be large enough to sell wholesale. Packaging is a lot of work and there is value at a certain point, not to worry about it, you have to value the time you spend sitting at the market. Then again the pride in my product would keep me packaging anyway.
> 
> How is the weather down there in Miami?



Lol, there are all sorts ! Ha ha
Honey is still flowing here Josh 

It amuses me how one fellow on this thread criticize another local producers product as B grade. If this one fellow is selling out at high pricing... What's all the fuss about? 
My honey is priced the same , so does that make my honey B grade  Sounds like a rookie comment


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## JoshW

He sold out early, obviously the other producers pricing didn't interfere with his sales. He needs to raise his prices or get more hives, probably both, that is the solution.


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## CJK

. :shhhh:


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## CJK

Someone just told us 190ml at farmers market $6.50.


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## Ian

That's awesome, tap that market, don't cry here after that market fills up


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## CJK

Told ya I am sold out. I am sold out next year. And the year after that. Prices are all over the place, obviously.


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## Ian

Then why start a thread bashing beekeepers for selling honey out of our honey house for $3.50/lbs? Our market place is obviously not the market your tapping...


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## CJK

fishing out what others charge. Thank you


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## Ian

CJK said:


> fishing out what others charge. Thank you


$3.60 / lbs, on farm


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## kanikka

CJK said:


> someone is selling honey for $3.50 lb. B grade? Even if people supply their own container I can't comprehend that.


We have some newbee in Spruce Grove, AB selling honey for 3.60 lb ($12.00 Glass Liter Jar less the price of the jar $1.20)...unbelievable...the only certainty is that they won't be making money doing this


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## CJK

kanikka said:


> We have some newbee in Spruce Grove, AB selling honey for 3.60 lb ($12.00 Glass Liter Jar less the price of the jar $1.20)...unbelievable...the only certainty is that they won't be making money doing this


I see now the honey prices are all over the place. Biggest producers obviously have to sell off bulk at a lower price. Another thing is I don't know what co-op like bee maid pays per lb. $3.60 might be better I honestly don't know. But it sounds low. Considering initial cost and upkeep.


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## Haraga

Good for the newbie. I hope they do well.


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## Ian

CJK said:


> nother thing is I don't know what co-op like bee maid pays per lb. $3.60 might be better I honestly don't know. But it sounds low. Considering initial cost and upkeep.


Wholesale quotes from other Canadian packers have been $2 per lbs at present market. With our low dollar I would expect US bids to be higher


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## jim lyon

Ian said:


> Wholesale quotes from other Canadian packers have been $2 per lbs at present market. With our low dollar I would expect US bids to be higher


Let's hope so Ian. With the exchange rate all the way down to the mid .70's if you guys don't see bids of well above $2.00 we may be in for some price softening down here.


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## CJK

too much Chinese honey entering our market


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## Ian

jim lyon said:


> Let's hope so Ian. With the exchange rate all the way down to the mid .70's if you guys don't see bids of well above $2.00 we may be in for some price softening down here.


I sell to BeeMaid so I don't get the quotes but others have told me they have been given that soft offer. None sold at that price from what I gather


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## CJK

So what is beemaid paying per. lb? And what are the stipulations. How much can a person sell privately?


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## Ian

CJK said:


> So what is beemaid paying per. lb? And what are the stipulations. How much can a person sell privately?


BeeMaid does buy non member honey for cash, not sure what they are offering. Worth a call for more information.


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## sjz

BeeMaid price hard to know, because it takes a year to get full payment. Final payment depends on market next year. I would guess it will end up at $1.85. As for most other wholesale markets there is no price. Packers won't even buy. Billy Bee is out of market now, and their last offer was $1.75. U.S. Packers I have talked to won't even give a price.


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## hagane

I can see how someone who doesn't actually keep their own bees and is selling honey would most DEFINITELY dilute the honey. After all the stores do, if you compare the raw honey and whats on the grocery store aisle it IS diluted a lot of the time right?

Part of the problem is our society thinks its OK to mess with cutting corners on everything. So I would move to say if someone doesn't know how to treat bees it's questionable that there isn't something in there to spread the honey further like earlier someone mentioning corn syrup or other things.


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## hagane

The whole price softening thing I also question its validity. Granted I'm a novice at bees, but I'm experienced in business and other areas. A lot of the market price softening in other areas is artificial and about control and cooking up a good excuse to curry favor in their own interest. 

So what i want to say is, *I think most price softening in most industries is reflective of them betting that you can't or won't sell on your own and that they think they will get away with it by your lack of action, their legal maneuvering to eliminate someone's ability to compete, and lack of selling infrastructure of local or other competitors. That's the bottom line.*

An example of this; I come from a family of veterinarians. My dad's a vet, and so was my grandpa. Both farm vets that dealt with real people issues, and not selling high priced water schemes like some of the new ones where they charge an arm and a leg ( In the old days being a vet wasn't about money)...At any rate when my grandpa was in practice Utah County, in Utah had almost 35 or more dairies in this county. Now there are only about 3 or so left, and one of those is contracted to one of the others. It's really interesting how the big plunge in numbers wasn't related to lack of interest in farming or people not wanting to continue, but rather a lot of the losses came from artificial compulsion schemes to make milk price based on obtaining "special" equipment, and also litigation to make it so you had less competitors in the form of more "rules" to promote "health" but weren't actually in the consumers best interest.


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## irwin harlton

honey is a commodity, ... but there is no futures market in honey

http://www.miningweekly.com/article...ices-to-decline-in-2015-world-bank-2015-07-22

Agricultural prices are projected to decline almost 11% in 2015, with notable declines in all indices amid abundant supply and high levels of stocks. Risks to the agriculture price forecasts are also weighted to the downside, the report stahttp://www.miningweekly.com/article/all-commodity-price-indices-to-decline-in-2015-world-bank-2015-07-22


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## Biermann

Hello ih,

your comments are well noted, but be wary who give you the info. The world bank is not interested in high world food prices because it limits funds available for other investments in countries, I will stay away from examples.

Also, Honey is definitely not a commodity that will appear is thus forecasts, simply because the trade is minimal. 

Price has a lot to do with marketing discipline and frankly speaking if the (guess) 100,000 hives with custom pollinators in Canada have already earned $75-125/hive, then the honey value is a bonus, nothing more, nothing less.

If honey is stored, it needs to be properly warehoused and most apiaries are probably not interested to spend +$100,000 for a well build warehouse for a $0.75/lbs gain on prices if they wait until April to market.

Also, if you only have two or three large buyers, what you think the gone do? They know each other and have phones. Do I need to say more?

It is in all the trades, only a few big buyers and no little once left, but we are all 'cheap' buyers when we go shopping, so why complain? One gets what he deserves.

Sorry for the low punch, but the truth often hearts. 

Joerg


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## Ian

Lol, honey is not a commodity? Ha ha, it's a marketable item produced to satisfy wants or needs, which makes it a commodity straight from definition


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## Biermann

@Ian, please recite the whole sentence, not just a fraction:

_Also, Honey is definitely not a commodity that will appear is thus forecasts, simply because the trade is minimal. _

I compare it to wheat, sugar, corn, soy, etc.

Thanks, Joerg


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## Ian

K, my Mis interpretation, 
Still trying to make sense of that comment


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## PeterP

Ian, I believe, correct me if I am missing it Joerg, he is referring to the need for more "market" volume/liquidity to get a pure supply and demand price response. He does not think honey trades in a straightforward commodity market. Beemaid and Souix (sp) on the seller side and the big food companies on the buyer side try to influence price by holding back from sales and purchases and by warehousing if the cost/risk looks right. Larger supply less risk to holding off buying. Less supply bigger payoff to holding off selling. Same thing happens with maple syrup. Relatively few players are in the honey market. Small producers and buyers deal directly with consumers of sell/buy to the "market" makers.

Regards Peter

An additional note. In the grains and cattle markets buyers and sellers use future contracts to bet on prices or to hedge on future price (lock in a future price without taking receipt of goods). This ups the market volume. I don't think this happens in honey or maple syrup. I don't think describing "the market" is anything new to the average farming business.


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## Ian

Then you could also argue that honey still actually trades in the true sense of supply and demand , whereas pricing is still determined by the buyer and seller of the product. Commodities markets like grains and cattle have Ben saturated with speculators paper trade and pricing follows market whims instead of actual fundamental market factors. In our dealings the pricing needs to be adjusted at the elevator or stock yards in form of plus or minus basis contracts to better reflect local supply demand factors.
Honey is purely traded and priced reflecting supply demand factors


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## jim lyon

Biermann said:


> @Ian, please recite the whole sentence, not just a fraction:
> 
> _Also, Honey is definitely not a commodity that will appear is thus forecasts, simply because the trade is minimal. _
> 
> I compare it to wheat, sugar, corn, soy, etc.
> 
> Thanks, Joerg


I would suggest that's a poor comparison. Those commodities are quite generic in quality. A bushel of corn in Missouri is pretty much the same as one in Indiana or Illinois. Honey, on the other hand, has unique flavor characteristics beyond the basic honey grading criteria of moisture and color in addition to being able to pass muster for purity with the particular buyer you are dealing with. 
For this very reason we sample to pretty much every major buyer in the country, and there are more than 2 or 3 of them. To suggest that pretty much the same group of packers (excepting one set of crooks that went out of business) who have more than doubled their price offerings in the past 10 years have suddenly started colluding shows a degree of ignorance about the competitive nature of landing packing contracts and garnering shelf space with the major retailers. I've heard enough grumbling to make it clear there is no love lost between some of the major packers. It's rare I have a conversation with a buyer that I don't get quizzed myself on what I'm hearing about prices. The honey market has always been a bit murky and right now it seems to be at its murkiest. 
I'm fond of saying that the honey market is what you can currently pick up the phone and sell honey for once you've established a relationship with them. Packers and producers alike tend to try to use hearsay as evidence to establish where they feel the market is. 
So what is the price now? I don't have a clue because there don't seem to be many bidders. I'm assuming it's because of 2014 carryover and the prospect of cheap import offerings with the strong dollar. I know that at least one major player is offering 1.75 for domestic white but only to established suppliers. I have no idea how many takers there are, though history has shown that there are always cash strapped producers that can't cash in fast enough once their honey has been extracted. I've found it's usually best to stay out of the market in the fall until the fire sales are over. Beyond that I don't have a clue and I'm not sure anyone else does either. For my part, I'm going to chill for awhile and not get too obsessive about what may or may not be going on. Honey keeps you know.


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## Ian

jim lyon said:


> I have no idea how many takers there are, though history has shown that there are always cash strapped producers that can't cash in fast enough once their honey has been extracted. I've found it's usually best to stay out of the market in the fall until the fire sales are over. .


True sense of how a supply demand market place works, the buyers and sellers determine that equilibrium. Where as other commodities prices like wheat is determined in the mind of paper trading speculators...


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## PeterP

As always, an interesting thread from the commercial people, passionate and knowledgeable discussion. I'm a hobbyist with a thousand pounds production from 9 production hives (3 swarms), so I had a good year.

Jim has some good points I agree with. I tell new customers local honey is not the same as store packed honey. Canned peas and fresh shucked peas are two different vegetables. Canned peaches and fresh peaches are two different fruits. Local honey sells at a premium over store packed in my local market. If store packed honey retail prices drop 25% then there would be pressure on local honey prices. If prices go up then local honey will jump. A little like house prices, I will sell fast for more but will resist selling for less as long as possible. 

The honey market (liquid/creamed for retail/consumption or as a sweetener in other products) is not the same as most agricultural products. (exclude "local" honey sales from this discussion) The market is where buyers and sellers meet to make trades. Money for honey. Trading in honey is thin. Not enough volume to establish a futures market. Sow bellies (bacon) has a futures market. A futures market is where a non-producer non-user of the commodity can buy and sell without taking possession of the goods. A speculator. A risk taker. If a risk taker understands the market forces they can make money by betting which way the prices will go in the future. To be able to do this you need trade volume to produce market liquidity. The ability to get in and out of the market at the going price. Speculators or risk takers are an asset to a market so long as they cannot manipulate the market hence why markets are regulated. 

Honey producers as a group act as speculators by withholding honey from the market in anticipation of rising prices. Honey buyers as a group act as speculators by buying in advance of actual needs or by delaying buying. Each group assumes the risk of price changes. Why? Necessity or nature?

Regards Peter


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## Biermann

Hello Jim,

Sounds like what I said.

BTW, I was talking about the Canadian market as this thread 'Manitoba-Honey-Prices-Seriously' suggests.

This puts is clearer: 'anyone can make something, marketing with the highest return is a different story'. 

Edith: noticed Peter's comments after I posted this. Addition: orderly marketing is for me having a plan, like dividing 9000 kg of honey in to three blocks and selling one block every 3 or 4 month, yes the rest would be speculating unless winter or spring prices are always higher, then could get a show out of it.

Cheers, Joerg


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## CJK

Hi. I started this thread last year. My apologies for breathing life into an old topic. I did call Beemaid last year after the post. The office told me they sell to non members at $1.00lb. (at that particular time?) So,… haha. May as well buy honey in the store are relabel it. Sell it off the highway (joke)
Can someone please explain to me what qualifies a structure as a certified or approved “honey house” I have even seen people on the internet using modified campers and extracting honey in those. So..? I emailed CFIA on that topic and just got questions for questions. But they made it sound like it has to be a permanent structure with water / sewer. Temp hookups for seasonal no good? Should even be allowed to do it in a mudroom of your house. I mean… come on.


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## Ian

You need to realize CFIA is a federal standard, and follows all the food producer and processing standards. But it's not at all that complicated. 
Cleanable walls, ceiling, floor, covered lighting, proper wash stations and waste water removal, a written program covering all the requirements, check lists for maintenance, sanitation, production records... And such 

You can turn your mud room into a processing facility as long as you meet those requirements.


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## CJK

Ok so the campers for mobile set-ups would work in Canada because you can seal everything and hook up water and drain. Now the question is drain to where and why? Honey water isn't exactly an environmental threat. Its very clean I was giving it back to the bees. The final wash is just a bit of soap. We do not want to build anything significant until we are sure we can make headway. At the same time once you get into 10 or more hives the honey adds up. Soo. This wasn't a business aspiration but intended as a self sustaining hobby to help the survival of honeybees... and it's a pretty addictive hobby. The requirements I was told for a hobby, selling a hundred jars as an example. Sounded shifty and very unreasonable. I was told BeeMaid co-op owners are the ones who pushed CFIA regulations. In fact I think its in their membership literature. Hmm


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## Biermann

Hello CJK,

Please take a little more time editing your writings, or is your statement correct that BM sells to non members for $1.00/lbs? Is it not 'buying from non members for $1.00?

The rules are what they are and if you want to really qualify under CFIA rules, the thought Ian had in #74 does not do it. BUT, CFIA is in the dilemma that they don't have the staff to do what the law requires them to do, as a matter of fact, the consumer could sue the Canadian Government for non compliance and that the Canadian Government is risking public health.

What CFIA does, as every other organization would too, look at the priorities, like risk exposure and that is were honey is very far down the list. The top is milk, meat, etc. funny thing is, restaurants are not included in all this, one reason why you never see workers in a restaurant with hair or beard nets, other then Government canteens. 

The old saying remains: were no plaintiff, there is no judge.

Cheers, Joerg


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## CJK

"Buys", yes Joerg. Under "Purchase of Honey from Non Members" it states that Beemaid will purchase the honey in the same initial price set under the members Advance payment program." Then it says honey is graded then the price is set(?) So why was I told $1lb. That’s a base and then they pay more after grading? Under C.F.I.A. CERTIFICATION it states that "a motion was passed at the 2007 Annual General Meeting to have a proposal for inspection compliance, indicating a clear timeline and manner of implementation.” I was told the biggest honey producers pushed the “Federal Standard” into existence to keep hobbyists down. Remember there is also Provincial Municipal laws (depending on your RM) that states registration and licencing is required to sell anything from your property. $80 a yr in this RM. I’ve been told. So. $100 + $80 plus inspection fees yearly to sell a few jars of honey (-and a permanent structure to extract honey as I was told). Really? I just want to say… I worked with some of the CFIA top brass... and I appreciate everything you guys have done. Seriously. Yeah. 

I wanted them to give explicit details of what is and is not allowed for a structure to extract honey. CFIA would not give it to me in writing. Never talk to those people on the phone. Because they have a tendency (and Rev. Canada also) to gloss over things and can come back later and deny their former comments or recommendations.


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## Vance G

It is called barrier to entry. Stay out of our club. No one has been harmed by honey short of over eating but the government always knows best.


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## CJK

Right Vance. Beekeeping is super fun. And compromising the fate of honeybees with outrageous fees and regulations to appease some bigger players is a crime against humanity. Literally. Is one way to interpret it. I commend all the beeks who are in it for the love of bees and their countrymen. They really are hero’s in some ways


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## JoshW

If you need to sell wholesale to get rid of honey from 10 hives you should quit while your ahead.


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## Ian

Biermann, what I listed is simple conditions that needs to be satisfied, and if so the process of registration is easy after that. The scary thing is many honey houses don't satisfy those basic sanitary conditions.... 
I have an inspector audit my facility and its program each year.

BeeMaid requires registered producers and had been in the process upgrading their membership for the last 5 years. 
Producers outside the membership have needed registration from producers for years


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## Ian

CJK, if your production does not meet BeeMsids requirements, then find another buyer. If pricing does not fit your budget, find another buyer. 
BeeMaids focus is to protect member returns, not satisfying hobby pricing...
Get creative, there are ways to meet BeeMaids market requirements and capture their pricing . But most of all, respecting the organization would be your first step


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## CJK

Josh If I wanted to dump $25,000.00 into the bees I can do it without even going to the bank. Money is not an issue. Here's another way to look at it. Might give some perspective on the situation. I am a land owner. I don't have to transport my hives. What if those who transport their hives are loaded with mites and foul brood or whatever (god forbid) might pop up next.. How about we charge the mandatory hourly CFIA wage for each hive to be inspected - with detailed and documented papers - before they are allowed to move them off their properties. Or. Charge them $25 per box. Haha. Sounds petty now right? 

I say big producers must pay $25 per brood box if they move them off their personal property to pollinate crops because they pose a risk to the stock of landowners. How about that. Sound fair? So why should land owners pay $200yr or more to sell a few jars of honey. Food contamination from 100 jars of honey is unlikely and more insignificant than bees infecting others. I can say that. Just as others who don't like that opinion can deny it. 

No need to argue this any further its time to get our equipment ready., But I made my point.


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## JoshW

CJK said:


> Josh If I wanted to dump $25,000.00 into the bees I can do it without even going to the bank. Money is not an issue. Here's another way to look at it. Might give some perspective on the situation. I am a land owner. I don't have to transport my hives. What if those who transport their hives are loaded with mites and foul brood or whatever (god forbid) might pop up next.. How about we charge the mandatory hourly CFIA wage for each hive to be inspected - with detailed and documented papers - before they are allowed to move them off their properties. Or. Charge them $25 per box. Haha. Sounds petty now right?
> 
> I say big producers must pay $25 per brood box if they move them off their personal property to pollinate crops because they pose a risk to the stock of landowners. How about that. Sound fair?


Your rich, good for you, now you have let us all know and few of us care. 

The things you have listed do not affect the quality of the honey people sell, so why would CFIA care? they are inspecting the handling of the byproduct not the livestock themselves.

This argument has absolutely nothing to do with any of your other complaints posted, so I am unsure what you are trying to put into perspective here. You have gone from complaining about the price of honey to attacking the beekeepers who are at the mercy of the markets.... and their way of life.

I am unsure what sounded petty, I am in the process of going through the CFIA certification right now, it will be a long drawn out process, the fact that there is regulations in place is doing more to protect the price of honey than harming it. 

Nobody is stopping you from keeping thousands of hives, they are stopping you from selling product that could be potentially contaminated. So if you don't need the money, as you seem to need us to know, go out and buy up hives to save the world. The rest of us will do the same, but we have bills to pay and families to feed, so we will sell our honey in the way we see best and conform to the regulations set.


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## CJK

Ian I'm not sure what you mean. I was told we are not allowed to sell a single drop of honey without a certified honey house and municipal licencing. That's $180 yearly plus inspection cost and other fees if pasteurizing. $200yr creaming and more for export. My point was; where the heck do they get off saying we need that to sell honey from half dozen hives (and I was told the big co-op owners are responsible for those new federal regulations). But others can haul their hives all over the place potentially risking my stock. Come on. The second issue was CFIA refusing to correspond Via email to get the 'details' in writing. So it seems arranged to discourage rather than provide a reasonable food safety management system.

People that work at beemaid are very nice they are not the issue.


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## JoshW

CJK said:


> I say big producers must pay $25 per brood box if they move them off their personal property to pollinate crops because they pose a risk to the stock of landowners. How about that. Sound fair? So why should land owners pay $200yr or more to sell a few jars of honey. Food contamination from 100 jars of honey is unlikely and more insignificant than bees infecting others. I can say that. Just as others who don't like that opinion can deny it.


You don't need any certification to sell your 100 jars of honey to your customers. You need that certification to protect those people who you would hire to sell the product for you. If you can market 100,000lbs face to face to an end user who would not use it for resale, you could get away without dealing with CFIA.


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## CJK

see Josh it angers you. Just like it angers small keepers who want to sell 100 jars of honey without breaking rigged laws


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## CJK

even people with a certified honey house and pay $100 fee can later have contaminated honey when selling privately from pails. I mean really now.


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## JoshW

It does not anger me, I get frustrated with the amount of time it takes, and that the time is potentially holding me back from expansion opportunities. I am actually more offended by you coming on here and bragging how rich you are than I am bothered by the regulations to sell wholesale and 3rd party. I sold several thousand lbs of honey this past season, My honey house was not certified and I did not break any laws.... 

Its a reduced possibility of contamination if the regulations are followed. You can walk out today and be hit by a bus, you reduce the chances by looking both ways before crossing the street.


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## CJK

wait, wait, Josh, OK this is the conversation. If you were not registered then you broke EVERY law, from what the government told me. Unless you used someone else's licenced extraction facility. If so I have no idea how that even works.

You have to read the threads. I was getting no straight answers. Only told I MUST HAVE A PERMANANT, APPROVED STRUCTURE TO EXTRACT ANY HONEY THAT IS SOLD. No inspected licenced honey house. NO SELLING HONEY. Ok? Hear me? 

And I didn't brag omg you brought that up and you are trying to DETRACT a thread. Anyone can jump full in. This is not the point. It's manipulating which ways the laws lean that is the point. If you want to see highly professional trolling there are people who actually do that, BRO 

So. From what I was told. MUST have an approved licenced honey house. Must pay for CFIA inspection. Must pay another $100 to pasteurize. Must pay another $200 for creaming. more for export. I asked are these yearly fees. They said YES. I know someone with a big honey house. Every year he pays liceincing and inspection fees. He does not sell to Beemaid. ok. 

Canada. haha interfering with your expansion. SMH. Ok gents have a good season its almost here


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## JoshW

If you wanted straight answers from experienced people, you would not have come on here and disrespected them all. Also you would have asked straight questions.

For the record, many on here could have pointed you in the right direction, a more favorable direction than the one you have decided you must follow. But hey if you have all the answers, and want to discount and disrespect the extensively researched knowledge of others, I do not doubt you are 100% correct.


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## grozzie2

CJK said:


> wait, wait, Josh, OK this is the conversation. If you were not registered then you broke EVERY law, from what the government told me. Unless you used someone else's licenced extraction facility. If so I have no idea how that even works.


You need to read up on the laws, I dont know how they are implemented in Manitoba, but I do know how it works in BC. CFIA rules come into play if your extracted honey is going to be shipped across provincial boundaries. If it's going to be shipped across provincial borders, then it must be graded in a CFIA approved facility. If it's not going across a provincial border, CFIA has nothing to do with it, and only local provincial laws apply. Like I said, dont know how it is implemented in Manitoba, but I can say how it works here in BC.

In BC, food safe regulations are implemented and enforced by the health authorities. They are the ones that inspect commercial kitchens etc, where food is processed for sale, be it a restaurant or whatever. For farm gate sales, depending on the product, many dont require inspection. Using our example, we sell honey and garlic off of our plot, and neither required an inspection.

Another of the issues that is gettiing more traction these days, is the implementation of traceability. For folks selling honey via Beemaid, this is also an issue. The goal of the food distribution system is to be able to take a bottle off the shelf, look at the lot number, then go back to the packer and determine from those records, the farm of origin. It is an important detail if the product is being sold thru multiple levels of wholesale / packing / retail distribution, because when I buy a bottle of Beemaid honey off the shelf in superstore, there is no way for me to have any idea of it's source, but in the event there is something drastically wrong with it, the distribution chain can trace it back to the source.

Traceability doesn't come into play if you are selling farm gate, and at least in our province, small scale production with gate sales is not only smiled upon, it's encouraged with incentives. Using our own example, we filed the paperwork for our sales in 2015, which resulted in the classification of our property changing for tax purposes. Our classification changed from 'country residential' to 'farm', and with it, the assessment for tax purposes changes dramatically. This is one of the primary incentives used to encourage small scale production. Since we sell at the farm gate, and our labels include the farm name and address, traceability thru a production / packaging chain becomes a non issue. Consumer can look at the label, and it tells them exactly where the product came from, and based on the variety on the label, our internal records can tell us what day it was extracted, and where the hives were that it came from. We meet traceability requirements in two different ways. First, consumer that buys the product at the farm gate, knows where it originated, because they bought it at the point of origin. Then we go a step farther, and have the address on the label, so even if that bottle ends up elsewhere, the label states the point of origin, no need to go thru a long involved paperwork chain to see where it came from, just read the address off the label.

Our setup must be ok by the provincial standards, or they wouldn't have given us the new classification based on our honey and garlic sales, instead, we would have got a visit from enforcement folks regarding the operation and licensing etc. BUT, I cannot sell our honey outside of BC, and in reality, to go beyond the farm gate we will likely need to re-visit more regulatory stuff. As soon as a bottle with our label on it crosses a provincial boundary, it requires a CFIA grade label to be sold, and we dont have that, so it cant be sold.

A lot of the issues you are concerned about, only come into play where there are middle men in the distribution chain, and product is being shipped outside of the locale where it is produced, at least that's how it works out here.

I would suggest when you are talking to 'the government' about such things, instead of accepting off the cuff commentary, ask for reference to the specific statutes that are being enforced. When you read the specific statutes, wouldn't be at all surprised to find they are very different from what folks tend to 'think they are' in conversation. Honey in particular, at the federal regulation level, is broken out into a category all of it's own, with a lot of detail regarding grading, and processing facilities. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you find, the provincial regulations dont mention that category anywhere.


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## Ian

the thing is BeeMaid has no obligation to buy his honey... as he seems to think otherwise... 
The big market place waits for his production, there is more than the cooperative to sell to... 

( I'm one of those regulation imposing big time owners of the cooperative ) 

Fit the bill or don't walk through the door 
BeeMaid welcomes many new Beekeeping operations most years. Stability is one main criteria


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## Ian

CJK
Send me an email
I can help you navigate the system. BUT for it to work you need to come on board first. 
If your not interested in upgrading your facility standards then don't consider BeeMaid as you primary marketing venue

Check out my CFIA registration manual here
Www.stepplerfarms.com

...washable walls, ceiling and floor, adequate hand washing stations, SS equipment, proper waste water disposal, an up to date program and you will be close.... Other than the filing fees.


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## grozzie2

Ian said:


> ...washable walls, ceiling and floor, adequate hand washing stations, SS equipment, proper waste water disposal, an up to date program and you will be close.... Other than the filing fees.


Is a bathroom a requirement ? Or is 'bathroom in the house 75 feet away' good enough ?


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## Ian

Far as I was told, "what is the plan to manage that issue ?" If the crew needs to leave the facility to use the washroom, all hygienic practices will be used, right? And when re entering the facility, all hygienic practices will be used, right? So there is no issue , right? 

Having a washroom within the non production room of the facility is so much more convenient. 

Next question is if there is no plumbing for a washroom, what kind of plumbing is there to remove waste water? Does the exsisting plumbing adequately remove the wash water? How is the hand washing stations set up? Hot water? Where does the water come from and what kind of plumbing is used to get it to the facility? Annual water testing is required. 

All common sense stuff, and if their requirements are used proactively, when renovating an exsisting facility or building a new one, all these requirements can be satisfied while cutting hours off your daily chore routine


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