# The Last Beekeeper



## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

No sympathy here for these comm. beeks. They are strictly profit maxing by
what they are doing with these big pollination contracts at the expense of stressing their bees, who they are supposed to love so much, to death.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

3 commercial beeks is hardly a scientific sample, but I was wondering if CBs from the north going to CA have more trouble than CBs from the south have going to CA?


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

And what will you say to the almond grower who doesn't have bees to pollinate his almonds? Tough luck go into another business? California doesn't have enough bees to pollinate their corps that is why bees are taken to Cali. Are beeks paid to bring them there...sure they are. What about bees taken to blueberry, cranberry, squash, and many, many more crops for pollination? What would happen to our food crops if commercial beeks didn't move their bees to pollinate? 

I haven't seen the movie but most of the commercial guys I know don't lose many bees shipping them to California. As a matter of fact it keeps our winter losses down and we can split as soon as they arrive from California in the Spring. I don't buy the bees dying for "unexplained" reasons. Something killed them and I bet it was something simple like starvation, pesticide hit or moving the bees when it was cold and wet.


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## chevydmax04 (May 11, 2009)

Alpha6 I have to agree with you that these sudden deaths of entire colonies can and eventually will be linked to the increased use of pesticides. The bee's are the unfortunate victims of the collateral damage that pesticides cause. I think also the veroa mites are also major contributors to the problem, weakening colonies and spreading disease from colony to colony. I have only had bee's for a year but knock on wood thus far they are pest free, there are no other hived bee's that I know of anywhere in a 5 mile radius so I only have to worry about my bee's getting infected from the few wild hives that may or may not be in the area.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

alpha6 said:


> And what will you say to the almond grower who doesn't have bees to pollinate his almonds? Tough luck go into another business? .


If the biz of almond pollination is contributing to CCD then I say boycott almonds.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

I do not believe in CCD. I think it is a catch all for known reasons that bees are dying. There is a reason that nio nicotodes are banned in several countries in Europe and are freely used here in the US. Chemical companies have have a multi billion dollar business in these types of applications and spend hundreds of millions on lobbiest each year. It's simple math. So don't boycote almonds...vote in legislators that are going to do what is best for our nation and not what is best in their own interest. Additionally, there are other contributing factors to hives dying out. Certainly, mites, stress, etc can all contribute to the weakening of a hive. But a good beek will recognize symptoms and treat and care for his hives. Let us not forget bees are like any other creature. You have to know what is in your care and actually care for it. It's fairly simple.


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## chevydmax04 (May 11, 2009)

Well I talked with some bee keepers in West Bend this spring, they had lost 60 of 150 hives due to CCD, I could be wrong but I don't think there are any almond trees in West Bend. So therefore I don't think that the CCD can be pointed at any one crop being pollinated. What I meant in my last post is that the use of pesticides has increased greatly in all aspects of farming. The more pesticide they spray the more resistant the pests become, so the pesticides get more potent. I think it could be compared to DDT and Bald eagles dieing off in the 60's-70's. The eagles were collateral damage to killing insects. 
Just my opinion....


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

JBG said:


> No sympathy here for these comm. beeks. They are strictly profit maxing by
> what they are doing with these big pollination contracts at the expense of stressing their bees, who they are supposed to love so much, to death.


WAKE UP! Since the introduction of the honeybee to this country they have been transported. Since our every expanding population has been growing so does the need for food and pollination. Beekeepers have been trucking hives for decades with minor losses until recently(except for varroa) there has been mass die offs of the honeybee.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

I am very awake and aware of just how much stress the almond crop puts on the bee population of the US. Since when has this always been the case of having so much bee population concentrated in one area of California? A great way to get a disease concentrated and spread nationwide. Regardless, here is an innovative group doing some CCD work.....
http://www.beeologics.com/CCD.asp


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## dbest (Aug 9, 2005)

JBG said:


> No sympathy here for these comm. beeks. They are strictly profit maxing by
> what they are doing with these big pollination contracts at the expense of stressing their bees, who they are supposed to love so much, to death.


We should also shun those vicious beekeepers that allow some of their hives to die by leaving them in the cold WI snow all winter. I wonder what percentage of people that have 5 hive lose 2 every year. Isn't that 40% winter kill...sad.


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## chevydmax04 (May 11, 2009)

JBG I agree with concetratating a huge percentage of the bees into one small area as a problem, and is a great way to spread disease quickly and efficently nationwide. Perhaps someday the hives will have to stay in California and will not be allowed to be transported across state lines. Similar to the Emerald Ash borer problem we are having here in midwest, and not being able to move wood from one county to another. May not solve the problem but could slow the spread of disease none the less.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

Also a good way to make sure AHBs get moved all over the US. I'm sure the 
Almond growers would not really mind AHBs doing the job if that is what it takes.
I have a good course for them in Brazil if they want to learn about how to work 
AHBs commercially.


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

I don't care what size of beek you are!
But untill you have gone thru the losses that were shown in the movie you have no idea what it is like to go into a holding or over wintering yard, lift the lid & have them boiling over with bees & a month later having nothing but empty boxes.
I know of a good many beeks that lost hives & had no connection with any of the migritory guys for a hundred miles or so.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Be care full , ChevyMax04. I have 2 yards within 5 miles of you. Both of them perished completely 3-4 years ago. They now have new bees in all new equipment. Trouble is closer than you think. Oh, and I do not migrate, so how did we get the "croop"?

Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

alpha6 said:


> I do not believe in CCD. I think it is a catch all for known reasons that bees are dying. There is a reason that nio nicotodes are banned in several countries in Europe and are freely used here in the US. Chemical companies have have a multi billion dollar business in these types of applications and spend hundreds of millions on lobbiest each year. It's simple math. So don't boycote almonds...vote in legislators that are going to do what is best for our nation and not what is best in their own interest. Additionally, there are other contributing factors to hives dying out. Certainly, mites, stress, etc can all contribute to the weakening of a hive. But a good beek will recognize symptoms and treat and care for his hives. Let us not forget bees are like any other creature. You have to know what is in your care and actually care for it. It's fairly simple.


A catch all for known reasons? Then why doesn't Dennis van Engelsdorp say so? He's a pretty smart guy and has spent lots of hours researching CCD. So, if anyone knows what the problem is or isn't I'd listen to him. And Medhat Nasr from Manitoba. He says that it's due to varroa from the outside and nosema from the inside which allows the viruses entry to the bees bodies.

And what the heck did Sunderberg mean when he told the guy that maybe he liked his bees too much? Did he mean that he should maybe do something else, some other kind of work? Or that he shouldn't treat them so much? Or what?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

soupcan said:


> But untill you have gone thru the losses that were shown in the movie you have no idea what it is like to go into a holding or over wintering yard, lift the lid & have them boiling over with bees & a month later having nothing but empty boxes.


In spring of 2006 I had 732 colonies. By the fall of 06 I had 400 some. By March of 2007 I was down to 100 colonies. I blamed poor queens, drone layers, nontreatment and ineffective mite treatment. Then I started hearing about CCD. I still have no idea whether CCD is to blame or not. Counting almost 100 five frame nucs, I'm up to about 560 or so colonies. Now if I can keep most of them alive this winter I'll have a chance to get back to around 800. Wish me luck.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Interesting link, JPG. I checked it out, and would encourage folks to bookmark it and use it. For that reason, here it is again: http://www.beeologics.com/ccd.asp

there are several articles at this site that deal with the problems our bees are having.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> In spring of 2006 I had 732 colonies. By the fall of 06 I had 400 some. By March of 2007 I was down to 100 colonies. I blamed poor queens, drone layers, nontreatment and ineffective mite treatment. Then I started hearing about CCD. I still have no idea whether CCD is to blame or not. Counting almost 100 five frame nucs, I'm up to about 560 or so colonies. Now if I can keep most of them alive this winter I'll have a chance to get back to around 800. Wish me luck.


This is my point exactly Sqkcrk. No one can actually explain what CCD is...but there sure are a lot of explanations of what it isn't. "Well we can't say for sure it was the pesticide spray" You would think with all the research that is going into "CCD" someone could come up with something concrete...but then that would be an end to the funding...kinda like finding a cure for cancer.

I do wish you luck...keep up the good work on your bees.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Mark,I had 1016 pretty good looking hives in the summer of 2008. Did a lot of Fall feeding because of the drought,both syrup and pollen sub. By Jan 09 I only had 532 rentable hives for almonds.Lots of feed in the hives with a tiny cluster and queen. And a mountain of deadouts stacked up. CCD? PPB? Nosema C.?Kashmir BV?etc.? Who knows ,likely some of each.
Everything has been restocked,at great expense.I've kept bees most of my life but my confidence as a beekeeper is the lowest its ever been...
Good luck to all of us trying to keep our bees alive.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Thanks, Mike and Mark. It helps to know I'm not the only one struggling to keep numbers. If I double my existing count I may stay even by the time 12 months pass.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

I watched the movie and the main message I got was that taking my girls to CA would put them in jeopardy like the people in the show. Maybe the stress or the diseases on the blooms etc is causing it. It was very interesting and thought provoking. Even the guy that was successful from the south starting having losses after he returned home from CA. So CA might be place to stay away from. They have the terminator as the Governor so maybe it is a sign. I think it is a greater problem then the show portrays.

Losing 70% of 2000 hives would be devastating and I think she had already suffered 30% losses before she left taking her down to the 2k number.

They did not address the bee keeper that does not take there hives anywhere. Does CCD still happen to them also. Reading the posts I would say it does wish they had gone into that a bit. Is it global or just more of a US thing.?

Is there places that we can get our politicians to donate money to help. Write letters to help publicize that fact that we need more research.?


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

JBG
I disagree with you that moving bees to almonds is causing big loses and the problem. Beeks have moved bees for decades without this happening. When I lost 50% of my operation I had never been to Ca. Its true moving bees is stressful, both to the beek and bees. Whats killing the bees is a weakoned immune system (pesticides?)! THen the stress of droughts, moving, other weather related causes and mites(virusus) is the straw that broke the camels back....but the ultimate cause is a weak immune system! Read my post I made in bee diseases urban beekeeping vs country beekeeping. A beek I know lost 2000 of 2500 colonies last fall, MOST before he moved them to FL. He has NOT USED ANY pesticides legal or illegal for years(6-7). He sells nucs(until last yr) so all his comb is 5 yrs of less old with no exposure to miteicides. He raises his own queens, DOES NOT GO TO CA, never has and only makes one move a year....honey producing yards in north to fl to raise bees(nucs) and queens. Produces little orange honey and makes his honey up north. His area up north is cropland with a high concentration of vegs and other crops with lots of pesticide use(neonictinoids). He now has many hives that are going downhill fast..CCD symptoms. He bascially is a nonmiteicide use beek using thymol and other natural controls and has a LOW mite count!!! So its not Ca almonds as the cause!!


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

The most disturbing thing to me watching the show, was installing the new packages directly into the dead out hives. At least that was the impression I got. If they did remove all the old frames and wax it wasn't shown. To me, if the hive died out, putting the new packages right back into that dead out was foolish in my mind. Maybe that's all he could do to get the contract fufilled fast but I'm curious if those packages made it to fall or spring.


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## pcelar (Oct 5, 2007)

JBG said:


> If the biz of almond pollination is contributing to CCD then I say boycott almonds.


:lpf:


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Brandy said:


> Maybe that's all he could do to get the contract fufilled fast but I'm curious if those packages made it to fall or spring.


I pay $70 a package and they are not shipped. Can you imagine what he spent to have them sent in from Australia over night.? He could not have made much money filling the contract. But, maybe he kept his reputation with the farmers.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

suttonbeeman said:


> JBG
> I disagree with you that moving bees to almonds is causing big loses and the problem. Beeks have moved bees for decades without this happening. So its not Ca almonds as the cause!!


Here is my thinking on this Suttonbeeman. What I did learn from watching the program was just how rapidly they have expanded the size of the CA almond crop and what a big success it has been globally. We just did not have a single 100% bee dependent crop in the US of this size 40 years ago. Sure bees were moved around but nothing like it is now both in the concentration in that area of CA and numbers of bee colonies. Many of the beeks in the program mention this. I don't think there is anyplace else on Earth that has this kind of bee Ag. going on now and it has never happened on this scale historically either I don't think.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

pcelar said:


> :lpf:


Don't understand your point?
I don't find any Beek practices that contribute to a serious thing like CCD to be a laughing matter that's for sure. I would certainly give up eating almonds if the cultivation practice is shown to contribute to CCD as the program suggests. I saw boycotting almonds as a clear sub-message of this program.
However, more reasonable would just be to modify the commercial beek practices that may be contributing and keep everybody happy with as many almonds as they want to eat.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

You guys do know that CCD is probably just the result of the israeli paralysis virus right? Google USDA research on CCD, theyre saying 96% of CCD cases involved IPV, and that other 4 percent is probably the pesticides. They also said healthy hives had NO IPV present. Why they wont call these obvious statistics teh "cause" of CCD is beyond me. I'm in college studying Biology sciences, and I can defintiely say, 96% is NOT coincidental levels. I've simply concluded that I won't be pollinating if any other commercial interest has bees at the same location. I defintiely won't be going to Hellifornia. If I do go, for the prices they pay, they can just keep the gear and all. All those australian bees they fly in that are comingling with US bees, some of them carry the disease, which we all know is transmitted by varroa. So everyone can cry out that its stress and pesticide, but its really just too many bees in one spot, sick bees getting robbed, resulting in, alot of sick bees. If someone has the time to find the link to the USDA thing before I get time, do post it.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

Some data from a biased source but still of interest for your 96% number.

http://www.beeologics.com/CCD.asp


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

hey, its communicable. And while I suppose it could be biased in presentation, the data is quantitative.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

alpha6 said:


> ..but there sure are a lot of explanations of what it isn't.
> 
> I do wish you luck...keep up the good work on your bees.


To you second line, thanks, I'm trying.

To the first line, a friend of mine has spent part of the last six months or so going to Doctor after doctor and PT to PT only to find someone who now tells him that he has arthritis. He sure knows what he doesn't have too. No HIV/AIDS or lyme disease or lung cancer, etc., etc. It's probably the same thing w/ bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

loggermike said:


> Mark,I had 1016 pretty good looking hives in the summer of 2008. Did a lot of Fall feeding because of the drought,both syrup and pollen sub. By Jan 09 I only had 532 rentable hives for almonds.Lots of feed in the hives with a tiny cluster and queen. And a mountain of deadouts stacked up. CCD? PPB? Nosema C.?Kashmir BV?etc.? Who knows ,likely some of each.
> Everything has been restocked,at great expense.I've kept bees most of my life but my confidence as a beekeeper is the lowest its ever been...
> Good luck to all of us trying to keep our bees alive.


Back at ya loggermike. And don't let those who haven't walked in your shoes get you down. Look back at all of the stuff you have lived through. Some years from now this will be one of those things too, hopefully. If it doesn't kill ya, it'll make ya stronger.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Thanks, Mike and Mark. It helps to know I'm not the only one struggling to keep numbers. If I double my existing count I may stay even by the time 12 months pass.


Gonna do it all at once or spread it out over a couple of seasons?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

EastSideBuzz said:


> I watched the movie and the main message I got was that taking my girls to CA would put them in jeopardy like the people in the show.
> 
> Losing 70% of 2000 hives would be devastating and I think she had already suffered 30% losses before she left taking her down to the 2k number.
> 
> ...


A. It ain't necassarily taking them to the groves that is killing them.
B. How many of her hives were dead before they were taken out of the wearhouse and loaded on the semi? They didn't show them being looked at before going to CA.
C. Stationary bees have been hit too. Yes, it is happening in Europe too. From Poland to Spain.
D. I think that we are getting pretty good media attention and we have gotten research dollars just a couple of years ago.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Brandy said:


> To me, if the hive died out, putting the new packages right back into that dead out was foolish in my mind. Maybe that's all he could do to get the contract fufilled fast but I'm curious if those packages made it to fall or spring.


A calculated risk on his part. I'd be more concerned about explaining it to his wife when he got home. He could loose more than just his bees making unilateral descisions that way.

And why the heck did he run back to the truck when he didn't want to talk to her anyway? He left that phone in the truck for a reason in the first place.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

EastSideBuzz said:


> I pay $70 a package and they are not shipped. Can you imagine what he spent to have them sent in from Australia over night.? He could not have made much money filling the contract. But, maybe he kept his reputation with the farmers.


I heard that they cost about $120.00 each. So, maybe he took in $20 or $30 on each colony. Or broke even on each package. Either way, he lost, but maybe not as badly as he otherwise would have.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

sqkcrk said:


> Either way, he lost, but maybe not as badly as he otherwise would have.


I have heard of $140 for the package, then $140 pollination fee so breaking even on the almonds. BUT, if he had waited til spring to try to replace those bees, he would have gotten no pollination check plus had a big cost for replacement bees. Basically, his replacement bees are paid for. Or would have been if he could have rented them all. Sounds like only 400 still made the grade.
Making that kind of decision without his wife's knowledge, after the talk they had prior to the losses isn't the way to a harmonious marriage. I would imagine she hit the roof, then had to hunker down with the books to figure how to make ends meet.

As for the bees on that show dying from CCD or going to California or whatever, I didn't see ANY in depth analysis of what was wrong with those bees. Could have been garden variety mites or starvation for all they told us.

Sheri


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## pcelar (Oct 5, 2007)

JBG said:


> Don't understand your point?


I was laughing at your comment.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> A calculated risk on his part. I'd be more concerned about explaining it to his wife when he got home. He could loose more than just his bees making unilateral descisions that way.
> 
> And why the heck did he run back to the truck when he didn't want to talk to her anyway? He left that phone in the truck for a reason in the first place.


He does not have to explain it. She probably has watched the show.  So I think it would have to be more then just explaining he needed to do. I am sensing allot of flowers and jewelry.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

EastSideBuzz said:


> I am sensing allot of flowers and jewelry.


I got the sense that kinda stuff couldn't be afforded, especially with losses like those.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

pcelar said:


> I was laughing at your comment.


That was a rhetorical question. CCD not being a laughing matter. Bee health here is more important than almond eating in my estimation.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

JBG said:


> Bee health here is more important than almond eating in my estimation.


Why can't we have both bee health and almonds?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

I think blaming CCD on almond orchards is a little like blaming car breakdowns on major highways. Most auto malfunctions happen on highways because the cars just happen to be there: most of the commercial bees happen to go to California. As mentioned before, commercials NOT going to California have reported similar collapses. The reason why you primarily hear about it from commercials (who just happen to go to California) is that it is their livelihood and exponentially more colonies die. When a hobbyist has a high percent crash they blame themselves or starvation or whatever. It is not as financially important to them. When you think about it, losing 5 of 10 colonies or similar is a pretty high loss but I would guess not uncommon. Or 1 out of 1, that is 100%!! But while some might suspect CCD (that is the in vogue bee boogieman right now) they are more likely to blame mites or starvation or any of the other usual suspects.
Like any other communicable disease, higher population masses, especially those being pushed hard for productivity are more susceptible. Smaller isolated non mobile colonies would have an edge, other things equal.
Sheri


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

There was a lot of of joking about CCD for awhile.(not the losses, just the name) PPB and other such comments. 
Truth is,there are major losses of bees going on in many outfits(I know of plenty that never made the news). I started seeing this several years back in semi loads of bees coming into holding yards from out of state hives in January. There has been a huge amount of guessing on the cause. I bounce back and forth on the reasons. But it is becoming apparent that there are new pathogens at work, spreading from outfit to outfit. And of course Sherri is right-the almonds just happens to be where all the hives are mingled.
I have seen that it is not taking as many varroa mites to cause viral problems as it used to. Nosema C is everywhere now and add in drought and maybe some Tracheal mites and sooner or later the 'perfect storm ' arrives in YOUR bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

EastSideBuzz said:


> I am sensing allot of flowers and jewelry.


W/ what money?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> When a hobbyist has a high percent crash they blame themselves ...
> Sheri


I am anything but a hobbyist, but I always blame myself first and then look for reasons outside of my control. Like this summers crop failure. The bees are in good shape and we still didn't make much of a crop of honey. So, I thought that maybe the mite loads were too high. Then I started hearing about the dismal crop all over NY. So, even though mite counts may be somewhat high, I'm not alone in not having a good crop.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

"always blame myself first"
Me too. And usually with good reason. Coulda/shoulda done something different. Thats how we learn.My dad called it the school of hard knocks.But there are definitely things beyond our control.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

What is the commercial opinion on this group and what they are doing with CCD.
http://www.beeologics.com/

My opinion is very high of Israeli agriculture and biotech from everything I've seen. They really know how to grow stuff in a harsh enviornment. I use a type of greenhouse covering from an Israeli group that is remarkable in how it filters light, enhancing plant growth....
http://www.polygal-northamerica.com/

Israel has great greenhouse tech in general. Really innovative....
http://www.bio-bee.com/site/


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

What Mike and Mark are talking about is so very true for most of us...the emotional toll that heavy losses take. Everyone else is doing better, why didn't I do that too, It's all my fault, and so on. Something has changed, it's much much more difficult to keep your bees healthy these years than it used to be. Picking up truckloads of deadouts is a lot of hard work and very depressing. Think how good you feel when they are all boiling over, well there is another side to that coin. Then you have to spend money you don't really have, just to get back to an economic unit. How to keep that enthusiasm? When it all becomes a burden you're just a step away from quitting all together. inch:


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

very well said Sheri


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

I watched the last beekeeper with an open mind. I am not ashamed to admit that a tear or two slid down my cheek. I feel sorry for those that lose so much just trying to make a living.
Keeping my fingers crossed that the solution and or answers bring help to those who must haul their bees for a living. We are all in this together whether we like it or not.


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

I have not seen the film, but talked to a beek today that said he knew two of the three beeks followed in the film. He said one is bankrupt and out of business now, and the second one he knew is just a shiver away from bankruptcy. The third he did not know.
What I do believe is that commercial beekeepers are some of the hardest working businessmen and women that exist in the country. Especially, if you take into consideration the amount of possible return for the work, time, investment, and risk that must be put into it. My small hobby/sideline operation won't bankrupt me if it fails completely. Commercial operators with no other businesses or income is another matter.
My hat is off to each and every one of you!
Laurence


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

Laurence Hope said:


> I have not seen the film, but talked to a beek today that said he knew two of the three beeks followed in the film. He said one is bankrupt and out of business now, and the second one he knew is just a shiver away from bankruptcy. The third he did not know.


Well you don't have to know them to know that because that was all in the documentary itself.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> I think blaming CCD on almond orchards is a little like blaming car breakdowns on major highways. Most auto malfunctions happen on highways because the cars just happen to be there: most of the commercial bees happen to go to California. i


Hello there JK and Sheri. I think a better false analogy would be thinking in terms of AIDS. Like blaming AIDS on going to gay bathhouses or discos. True they were significantly correlated, probably still are. Of course before research isolated the virus and transmission pathways there were all kinds of speculations. However the correlation factors in AIDS at least are the behaviors when it comes to bath houses and discos. The true analogy for CCD would be similar in that what is going on in the high density areas are certainly significant in terms of disease transmission. Not like cars on the hiway malfunctioning which is only an issue of scale. Car malfunctions are not transmissible. Not to be confused with tranny problems.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

JBG A very good point, however almond pollination(massing of bees togather) is not the cause, I believe the cause is a weakoned immune system, then with bees in a smal area it does allow disease transmission. That said, I think the only big problem would be afb if we didnt have the comprised immune sytem along with NO imported bees. The big question is what is causing the immune system to crash. Once it does then nutrition (drought. monsoon), mites, viruses are all magnified. So it seems we need to fix the immune system. Anyone researched how neonictinoids kill? Do they not weaken the immune system? Down the road when everything comes to light I believe they will make DDT seem like a mole hill and nictinoids a mountain!


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

JBG said:


> The true analogy for CCD would be similar in that what is going on in the high density areas are certainly significant in terms of disease transmission. Not like cars on the hiway malfunctioning which is only an issue of scale.


While I think the high density is of course a factor in transmission I think scale is also at issue, that is my point. Hobbyists and sideliners fall through the statistical cracks. It is just plain easier to _count_ the cases where there are large populations of bees, whether they be non-migratory honey producing operations, holding yards in FL or in CA almond yards. The fact is, non-migratory honey producers of size are a declining species, hence the over weighting of migratory bees in the statistics. 

Of course, realistically, all our problems have migration at the root: migration of Varroa, migration of Nosema, migration of IAPV....
Unfortunately water under the bridge.
Sheri


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

Yes I agree about the scale issues for sure and the fine point about the overweighting is a good one to consider. I forget the kind of sampling that you have to do but I think you have to be up on Bio-stats and epidemiologic
methods so its not easy. I do see it as more an AIDS like thing where mutiple
immunity factors have been impaired but this is only speculation and we are now way beyond my brain limit on this thread.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

JBG said:


> we are now way beyond my brain limit on this thread.


LOL, don't feel bad, the best scientists in the country are working on this and haven't figured it out. We are _all_ just speculating here.
Sheri


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tom G. Laury said:


> When it all becomes a burden you're just a step away from quitting all together. inch:


But next year will be better, right? That's what I always hope for, even in good years.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JBG said:


> The true analogy for CCD would be similar in that what is going on in the high density areas are certainly significant in terms of disease transmission.


It seems as though Almond Pollination is the problem, in your opinion, if I understand your statements correctly. But maybe not. Maybe what you mean is anytime mass numbers of colonies are brought together, such as happens in Almond Pollination and Blueberry Pollination, there is greater chance of transmission of diseases and pests.

But this documentery focused on Almonds and not Blueberries. I know a number of beekeepers who go to Maine after going to California. Following those folks could be an interesting documentery too.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

Yes, I was being overthetop about almonds. However, a big point in "The Last Beekeeper" was that the growth of the almond industry in CA is huge over the last 20 years. Almonds as a %100 bee dependent crop have had an unprecedented impact on the domestic bee population. I have to agree with that. Blueberries, Cranberries, and any other crop just don't have the numbers of colonies and the density in one geographic region. If the bees in the overall US are sick then almonds magnified it.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Naaaaaw!
Actually taking our bees to almonds is one of the best things for them.
The last few years, we loaded them up in the cold, drizzle and snow after very few flying days and unloaded them in excellent mid70 degree days.
There, they get right out and take cleansing flights, get fed and generally get off to a really good start on the year.
But then, we don't unload in holding yards.
Our semi's pull right in to the ranch, and are moved in place in one ( long ) evening.
They come home looking awesome.
Sorry if I don't play along with the blame game.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

Hey there HarryV. So did you watch the last beekeeper documentary and if so what did you think about how they did the story? What is your opinion about CCD?


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## jesuslives31548 (May 10, 2008)

Does anyone know were I can watch the movie online. I dont have the planet green channel. Thanks for any help in advance.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

HarryVanderpool said:


> The last few years, we loaded them up in the cold, drizzle and snow after very few flying days and unloaded them in excellent mid70 degree days.
> There, they get right out and take cleansing flights, get fed and generally get off to a really good start on the year.


I know when I am in and out of Air conditioning I get a cold. It kind of wears on my system. Does taking them out of cold winter an plopping them into 70's with less rest (over winter) then they normally have for the climate they lived in before play a part in the susceptibility of disease for them.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

No, I cannot say that my bees have ever caught the cold in California.
The next morning after their placement, they orient themselves, take many cleansing flights and then begin hauling in wild mustard pollen by the shovel-full.
Meanwhile we begin slowly and carefully going through the hives feeding pollen sub patties, syrup, and equalizing brood, bees and feed.
Soon the trees begin to bloom and the bees are in good shape.
When the bees are back in Oregon in March they usually have a very good supply of pollen.
Usually they are brooded up very well.
This is good because it allows us to make up a bazillion nucs at that time.
Again, I consider the trip to almonds as one of the best things that happens to our hives during the year.
There are some other crops that we pollinate later (that I will not name  ) that are VERY hard on the bees and beekeepers.
I am very gratefull for my longstanding relationship with my almond grower and the annual trip to his ranch.
My bees are too!


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

Do you think your relatively short trip from OR and staying in the same zone,
not a big longitude change, contributes to your bees staying healthy?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

JBG
I think you have preconceived notions about migration due to previous media attention and reinforced by this documentary.
John and I have been sending our bees to almonds for 7-8 years and while we have had some problems, nothing like those on the movie and nothing that wouldn't have shown itself here in Wisconsin as well.
While there have been bee collapses out in California I consider the economic risks of the market more of a deterant than disease. Wintering in Wisconsin is no cake walk and our bees are much better in early spring after return from almonds than they ever were when wintering here. This is the case for most of the commercials I know. That said, one needs to have big healthy bees in January to get paid; that is something that those beeks on the documentary failed to provide. As far as I could tell, they were goners before they left their home state. CCD is a sexy buzz word right now and attracts lots of attention but did those colonies have CCD or PPB? The documentary should have made an attempt to answer that question.
Sheri


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

johnk, it's good to hear from people that actually ARE on almonds, so we can hear real experience, not TV. Economics question for you. If you did have any losses, were the trips always profitable, and what cell size are you running!


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Now, I remember what I wantd to ask, how many hives does one need to make a profit on almonds if travelling cross country? 300? or do I need as many as 500? More?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> they were goners before they left their home state. CCD is a sexy buzz word right now and attracts lots of attention but did those colonies have CCD or PPB?
> Sheri


WHHATTT !!!!!! you can't say THAT.

Calling a SPADE a SPADE. That like calling it the way it is.

Cmon Sheri, you can't come on here and just speak the truth like that. 

PS. What would Micheal Moore have to say about this.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Never been to almonds but you can bet my bees would be there if the border were open. It's not hard to figure out. What is better for bees, pollen or cold weather hmmm... It's no surprise that the package bee industry developped there. Almonds make a bunch of bees. The guys need to sell them or the bees will swarm. Essentially all the beekeepers who go there report that for the most part bees come back in good shape. Nice populations and very broody. 

I send bees on the prairies after pollination here. Sure the truck ride is rough on them especially if it hot, but they always come back with lots of bees and lots of pollen. They winter better here and they start better next spring. Believe me it's a pretty good plan. The other option is to feed them here. I don't mind hiring someone to burn a little diesel. I mean they make some honey as well to pay for the effort.

If you are going to get educated in the ways of a business , get the info from those who are living it, not those who film about it.

Jean-Marc


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

He'd blame republicans and global warming.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Skinner: 

Figure out how many can fit on a truck. Depends on the type of equipment, doubles or box and half. Also depends on 8 frame or 10 frame. Then add 25% more for the crappy ones that you don't send. Add another 10% for the dead ones. So you roughly need 600-650 alive in the fall for a truckload next february.

Consider moving there if you can afford it. It's easier to manage close by and too collect your money. Selling bees is an option after almonds. Send them on a crop share after in the mid west. Ask Keith, he knows a couple things about that plan. SC seems like a long ways to travel.

Jean-Marc


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

So I am confused. Is CCD real or a sexy buzz word? No doubt it is getting blown out of proportion by the media. That is what this thread is all about now.
What is fact and what is fiction? The film certainly had an anti-almond bias in the M Moore school of everything big in the US is bad. So, with all credit and great respect to the R Miksha book, is CCD a case of simply bad beekeeping?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Skinner Apiaries said:


> Now, I remember what I wantd to ask, how many hives does one need to make a profit on almonds if travelling cross country? 300? or do I need as many as 500? More?


Just the mileage may put you off the idea. Approximately 6,000 miles round trip at $2.50 per mile comes out to $15,000 per semi load from NC to CA and back. So, one semi load of colonies times $125.00 per colony should be about $50,000.00 minus expenses. So, just the mileage takes it down to $35,000.00. There are many more expenses, such as feed (pollen patties and syrup), human lodging and meals. Or maybe sending your colonies to a trusted friend who shares in the income and expenses.

My bees migrate to SC for the winter. I don't want to work hard enough to get my bees in shape for CA and then risk sending them out there for the income. I spend enuf time away from home as it is.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jean-marc said:


> Never been to almonds but you can bet my bees would be there if the border were open.
> Jean-Marc


You can take them south if you don't mind not getting them back into Canada, can't you?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Skinner, we are traditional commercial beekeepers, running traditional colonies, no small cell, no screened bottoms etc. Yes the trips have always been profitable, knock on wood. Some years are better than others and we have been lucky I think. I do know a couple beeks that have taken BIG hits on any given year. I think it is important to work yourself into a position to absorb a disasterous year whether you go to almonds or not, that is just good business management. 
We are working on a scale that can absorb some loss (we make it up in volume ). When a yard isn't looking right we scramble to figure out what is wrong. So far no CCD, hopefully we never see any of _that_. To date we pretty much know what has caused our losses and and it is usually something we either did or did not do.  They have been in line with what we would expect from wintering on the Wisconsin frozen tundra, but add in the stress of having your bees a thousands miles away. So far, the size of the good ones coming back allows us to make up our numbers here in Wisconsin, plus sell nucs and packages, which is added to the profit/loss equation.

Again, we know many commercials that go to CA every year and while every one of them has ups and downs on colony quality, the roots for that quality almost always goes back to where the bees were and how they were managed 4, 5 or 6 months prior to the orchards. With few exceptions they keep close tabs on their colonies' health. They ALL know where their bees are rented before they ship. They deal with reputable brokers or growers. Most spend considerable time in California putting patties and syrup to them, feeding Fum B, grading and evening them. If you aren't out there and something isn't right the broker, grower or another beek lets you know and you can sometimes get back out to fix it, or the brokers sometimes help. We leave as little to chance as possible.

As far as numbers needed to make a profit, there are too many variables. If you can send them straight out from the home state your best case scenario would be to at least fill one semi which in our case is about 500. If you need to go out to work them of course the more colonies the better the cost is spread around. Some bee clubs have gotten together a semi to share trucking expense and sent them out. We have read at least one catastrophic report on this forum of them losing everything on the load. The past couple years it has gotten very cutthroat and I sure would be careful. Brokers are cutting back, water is a big issue. It is only a profit if your bees are strong (NOT just strong for January), they get contracted and you get paid. All three of those variables are becoming more an issue out there.
Sheri
PS Keith you crack me up


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>>Is CCD real or a sexy buzz word?

I think it is being used as a catchall phrase for a lot of the problems going on in the industry. I take the view that all these problems are identifiable, but it has taken time to discover that it was really a mix of problems that make up so called CCD. CCD is a handy phrase when talking to the public who are mostly clueless about bees , but have all heard about the problems with bees.Try explaining the interaction of new strains of viruses with Nosema ceranae, neonicotinoid insecticides, and Varroa triggering it all, and their eyes glaze over.
Almond pollination gets the blame because that is where a lot of this crud gets passed around. No need to blame anyone .Thats just the way it is.


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

From my perspective of many decades of experience and some trips to CA before I went all stationary, what's not spoken about is mite treatments, hive inputs and success in CA. 

From the 2 dozen of so beeks I know in Wi/MN that go to CA it seems like a pattern of the beeks that have kept their brood comb clean and free of apistan/checkmite and off label miticides have good success in CA and the following summer. 

Its typically the same bunch of beeks that complain about heavy losses also have a long history of off label mite treatments. Many fo these guys have enforcement actions from Sodak and MN and have used a myriad of treatments some of which I don't want to mention for fear of someone else trying them. 

Comes down to some very experienced beekeepers lost their magic when they started tossing homemade mite treatments (and 2 or more antibiotics/yr, pollen subs, essential oils, syrup etc) into hives multiple times a year and now have contaminated brood comb and a host of problems.

Sure they have lots of experience to draw from etc but playing chemistry set with their bees year after year is not something they have the education or skill to comprehend what the affects mite bee. 

Even the top bee researchers will tell you that the synergy between multiple chemical treatments in hives is not something that is well understood. And I'm not sure its something we need to have research conducted on either since some of these are illegal treatments . 

I see some newbies and pro's still think that micrograms of trace pesticides brought into hives somehow trumps the massive levels of chemicals and additives that some beekeepers INTENTIONALLY put into their hives multiple times a year. 

Getting back to the basics and designing a bee business around the concept I SHALL PUT MINIMAL INPUTS IN MY HIVES AND STRIVE FOR NONE is in my view the key for successful commercial beekeeping for the next decade. 

The Last Beekeeper could be more accurately titled: The Last Industrial Beekeeper. Think about it....


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> PS. What would Micheal Moore have to say about this.


My guess would be... "mmm honey... FEED ME!"


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

Bud Dingler said:


> I SHALL PUT MINIMAL INPUTS IN MY HIVES AND STRIVE FOR NONE


YES, and I thank you for the clarity. 

I have to ask is CCD like AIDS? Once the virus is out there due to the extreme practices-yes AIDS was tied to the extreme promiscuity of the era- in this case the extreme stresses of sloppy industrial beekeeping, is everyone now going to pay the price or can it be avoided by safe practices?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Again there seem to be unsupported assumptions being made. CCD caused by "sloppy industrial beekeeping"? Puleeeese! There has been no correlation that I am aware of that supports this assumption. In fact, I believe there have been reported cases where the effected beeks were technically treatment free. 
The consensus is growing that CCD is a combination of virus/pathogens/nutrition issues that somehow reach a tipping point and cause collapse. The evidence is strongly pointing at IAPV as concurring at this tipping point, as a majority of collapses had this virus and it was very rare in non CCD cases. Is IAPV a cause or a symptom? I think the jury is still out.
Is heavily contaminated comb part of the equation? Remains to be seen. 

It doesn't do the industry a bit of good for people to bring their favorite whipping boy to the docks as the cause of CCD. It almost seems like some would wish harm on this important industry just so they can say "I told you so".
Sheri

PS As to what Micheal Moore would say..... He would be outside the labs of Beyer with his bullhorn, I can see it now.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

I was not making an assumption. I was asking about the AIDS/CCD analogy.
HIV/IAPV Bud felt that sloppy industrial beek practice was a predisposing factor, weakening bee immunity which would be analogous to promiscuous anal sex along with drug use weakening human immunity. You think there is no analogy between AIDS and IAPV or CCD it sounds like. I am not so sure.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Sorry, JBG, it looked like an assumption to me.
Promiscuous sex and drug use does not cause AIDS, HIV virus does, which can also be transmitted through marital sex or blood transfusions. If a virus is "causing" CCD, mass populations in California may make transmission easier but it does not CAUSE the virus. A single beehive sitting in someone's backyard in Illinois could catch that virus too, whether or not it has clean comb. Comb contamination may have little or nothing to do with CCD. 
Perhaps it is a fine line but I think it is an important distinction. If we all decided to suddenly replace all old comb and not use any sort of treatments at all, we would have much less money in the bank (or bigger loans), make the woodenware companies very happy, have a much larger mite problem (a more likely suspect in the losses IMO) and might _still_ be having losses. Jumping to convenient conclusions does no good and does harm while we put too much attention to a "gut" feeling.

A weakened immune system may well be what is making bees more susceptible to collapse but the question is what _causes_ the weakened immune system. Bud zeros in on contaminated comb, citing the beeks he knows that have enforcement actions against them. Maybe he's on to something. Maybe he's hanging around with a bad crew.  Just kidding, Bud! :lookout: 
Kidding aside, contaminated comb has been looked at, both the beekeeper _and_ bee introduced contaminates, along with mono-crop-induced poor nutrition, poor mite control, and a veritable host of viruses. Unfortunately saying "XX" is the cause of all the problems doesn't make it so. If only it were that simple. 
If CCD were caused by bad comb it would be replicable. Has that happened yet? I don't think so. 
Sheri


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> .....If CCD were caused by bad comb it would be replicable. Has that happened yet? I don't think so.
> Sheri


It is hard to replicate something when folks won't admit to what they have been putting in their hives for fear of regulatory action against them. Off label use of pesticides and chemicals is very common in all areas of American agriculture. I think for some it is easy to justify in the face of the politicization of our regulatory structure. It is unfortunate as it really does complicate the search for a cause when we see things popping up like CCD. There is so much obfuscation and finger pointing (and not just in the beekeeping venue) that I don't think we will ever get to the bottom of it. History is on my side, this sort of thing has come and gone more than once in the past with no real revelation as to the cause. I keep hearing that it is a combination of things but we can't seem to identify the thing that "tips it over the edge". Nature is like that, the stability of many natural systems can be quite fragile making the smallest and seemingly insignificant disruption a possible cause of calamity. I think it is obvious to even a casual observer that nature did not intend for bees to be managed by humans particularly in the ways that modern beekeeping has evolved, so it follows that we are really pushing the envelope when it comes to keeping that un-natural system stable. Eventually something happens to remind us of this fact. So far, between human innovation and dedication coupled with the natural resilience of the bees many of us have kept ahead of it, others have not been so lucky. It remains to be seen how far we can continue to push this envelope.


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## 67630 (Jul 17, 2008)

It seems alot of people on here are targeting the commercial beekeepers as the cause of these problems discussed in this post. Honestly, how many of the hobby beekeepers have bought packages to get started? Seems if it were not for the commercial guys there would be a lot less hobby guys.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Sorry, JBG, it looked like an assumption to me.
> Promiscuous sex and drug use does not cause AIDS, HIV virus does, which can also be transmitted through marital sex or blood transfusions.


What I said was that Prom. anal sex and drug use are predisposing factors in AIDS which they still are. Not that they CAUSE AIDS. Both as highly immunity suppressive activities and done together, anal sex and drug abuse, you are back in the late 70s early 80s. 
They are also significant factors in the etiology of AIDS, unlike bathhouses and discos, which are correlated yet have no real etiologic significance. Yes it is caused by a virus and is now transmitted via marital sex, transfusions and the like but how that virus manifested in the human population is the question. It looks like AIDS did not come from people engaged in marital sex or plain old drug use is the point. 
Now for CCD what are the significant factors, what is the real etiology?


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

Gene Weitzel said:


> So far, between human innovation and dedication coupled with the natural resilience of the bees many of us have kept ahead of it, others have not been so lucky. It remains to be seen how far we can continue to push this envelope.


I agree with G W on this one. Very well put along with the Bud dictum too of being minimal as better in my estimation. This pushing the envelope is a nice way of looking at the last beek as a documentary.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

michael-bees said:


> It seems alot of people on here are targeting the commercial beekeepers as the cause of these problems discussed in this post.


You are right. How RUDE to come to the commercial forum and trash commercial operators! No more packages for _them_. No more queens either.:lookout:
But more importantly, if the commercials go away so will much of the food they eat. Instead of harassing the commercials who are trying to deal with a myriad of newly introduced pests and a tightening profit margin, perhaps they should be picketing the producers of the foods that need bees to pollinate them. Right or wrong, monoculture needs massing of bees to do the job, that is not going to change. Instead of crying about how things used to be and trying to turn back the clock, we should be trying to figure out how to keep our bees healthy in the more challenging environment we are asking them to thrive in. 



JBG said:


> Now for CCD what are the significant factors, what is the real etiology?


Very good, _that_ is the correct question. Unfortunately there is no definitive answer. They're working on it.
Sheri


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

Ahhhh progress! This info. about the extent of off label use and the practices of the not so scrupulous / economically challenged is disturbing. I was making the same point about big Ag with respect to dairy farming. My neighbors are first rate but the problems are with the 2nd and 3rd rate operators. They are probably not big on this kind of forum.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Bud:

Have to disagree on inputs. How can you say that patties and syrup contaminates comb and your neighbours have since lost their magic? Patties and syrup do just the opposite. Studies consistently show better colonies when bees are fed patties. I don't think to many beekeepers would disagree based on their experience feeding patties. Syrup can prevent hives from starving overwinter. It also kick starts queens in the spring. In my experience more inputs of patties and syrup equals bertter colonies. Homemade mite treatments is another story altogether. There are some good ones though, thinking Mite Away 1 now.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

sqkcrk:

You can't send bees on combs to the USA from Canada anymore. That changed at about the same time Aussies started shipping bees to the USA. We can send them south in packages if we can jump through all the hoops.

Jean-Marc


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JM, post #93 very well said.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Keith:

Thank you.

Jean-Marc


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

In the upper midwest our hives are typically packed full with pollen and honey by October. right now my 2 story hives have little brood but the upper deep is jam packed with honey and pollen and the cluster is in the bottom deep. 

Many successful beekeepers from this region do nothing but move south or to CA and let them sit until almonds. 

From what I have seen hives from some other regions come into fall with less stores and need patties and syrup to maintain or brood up in CA as there not jack to forage on from Nov-Feb. 

I'm just saying that the guys who fiddle around the most from my area seem to have the most complaints. They treat without any idea of what their mite loads are, feed antibitotics with no nosema testing or signs of AFB. Its called feel good beekeeping in my view. The beekeeper feels better if he puts something into the hive.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

I just had no choice but to save my gals from the mites with formic acid pads yesterday. I don't feel good about it as I would much rather have been feeding. I do agree with Bud about minimal being better for sure, kind of like a Hiippo oath for beeks.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Yes, Bud you are right about usually having a good supply of honey and pollen in October in the upper midwest. We are very lucky to be in an area with diverse honey and pollen sources over a fairly protracted period of time. Unfortunately not this year for us. We had to feed asap when we stripped the colonies because what honey they made early this year they either ate up or put in the supers; they didn't make more than a dime's worth after the end of July. I prefer they go into winter with honey in the brood nest like they did the last few years. Our bees will be getting much more syrup for winter feed than they normally do for California. We _always_ (the last few years or so actually, since the growers are demanding such big bees in January) give them pollen. But even when they are full of honey we give them a touch of thin syrup along with the sub to get them broody. I am curious to see if they do as well this year without this stored honey. 
All the successful keepers _I_ know give pollen sub to their bees if they are out in California from Nov on. Stored pollen and stored honey are fine for living on but it doesn't get those queens turned on like a little fresh syrup and sub does and we want young go-getter bees for almonds. Like you say, nothing for them to forage on at all for most of that time.

As for putting treatment on without testing, that is one of those situations where some colonies might need it and others don't but how do you test each of 3000 or more colonies? It sure wouldn't be cost effective to treat without the need but we are hearing that Nos C is very widespread. I am testing for Nos C right now and finding very few spores but there are some. We know spore levels can vary greatly from one colony to the next. Without sampling every colony you just don't know if you are missing the ones that really _need_ treating. So many beeks feel it is better to treat every colony if they see any signs of Nos C at all. A colony that doesn't need it today might need it tomorrow if only 1 colony in the yard is sick now, not to mention the bee yard they might be sitting next to in California.
Same with varroa. If one is seeing varroa in the ones you look close at the assumptions is there that if they all don't have it they will soon so they all get treated. No one is going to ether roll each of maybe 5000 coloies. Too bad, there might be some that are mite resistant, but they get treated too. This is not ideal by any means but commercial beeks are not researchers they are commercial keepers that must keep ALL the bees healthy.
You can call that "sloppy industrial beekeeping" or you can call it "covering all bases". It is definitely called "trying to stay in business" and "trying to put food on the table, keep the lights on and pay Uncle Sam.

You say, Bud, that the ones that fiddle around the most are the ones with the most complaints. But consider, it might be more a case of those beeks that are having problems (for whatever reason) are desperately trying to find the answer to their potentially business-killing problem by (as you put it) "fiddling around". Ask those that have had the big losses over the past few years how they feel when their colonies are dying and they can't figure out why. Some have gone to the extent of trying some really out there treatments when traditional ones have failed them, out of desperation. It is a big difference between someone with a few colonies in the back yard, or even between a sideliner with a couple hundred but who has other income and the family that solely depends on those colonies for their entire sustenance and often the sustenance of employee's families as well.

I agree there is little to be gained by throwing everything but the kitchen sink at a sick colony but I don't think beeks that are inefficient and wasteful will be in business for very long. It is a fine line all commercials walk to stay in business, with skyrocketing costs and a competitive honey and pollination environment. They can't afford much useless "fiddling around".
Sheri


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bud Dingler said:


> They treat without any idea of what their mite loads are, feed antibitotics with no nosema testing or signs of AFB. Its called feel good beekeeping in my view. The beekeeper feels better if he puts something into the hive.


Let's say that you have seen mites in your colonies, say in the drone brood or on some bees. Then you decide to treat. 

What is the point of sampling colonies to find out how many mites you will find in the samples? No one can really accurately tell me how many mites I have in a colony if I have 5, 10 or 15 mites in a sample. And treatments don't very in strength or duration whether you have a low mite count or a high mite count.

So, my question is, why bother sampling before treating if you know that you have mites?

I can see checking to see if you have nosema before treating for it. Fumadil costs so much that to use it when you don't need to is a waste.

As far as AFB is concerned, I understand the idea of prophylactic treatment, but I don't do it. I burn what I find.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> It is a big difference between someone with a few colonies in the back yard, or even between a sideliner with a couple hundred but who has other income and the family that solely depends on those colonies for their entire sustenance and often the sustenance of employee's families as well.
> 
> Sheri


This brings to mind an issue I've thought about when members begin asking about such things as "How many hives..." and "How much money..." as they contemplate keeping bees for a living.

As a commercial beekeeper, have you seen a change in the number of beekeeping operations in the last 10 years and has there been a change in their size? 

I'm wondering if the realtive ease with which one can enter the business combined with ready access to information and equipment and the increased public profile of beekeeping has had a measurable impact on the industry. When I joined Beesource.com there were just a few hundred members and now there are over 9,000. Does that translate into the number of people trying to keep bees as a business?




Shoot, I forgot to ask my initial question...

Is there a possibility of a change in the way we keep bees "commercially" to the extent that we wil have more individual operations maintaining fewer hives per operation and managing those hives more intensely for higher efficiencies when it comes to pollination and honey production?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

JBG said:


> I just had no choice but to save my gals from the mites with formic acid pads yesterday.....


JBG, your sentiment is exactly that of most of us. No beekeeper treats his bees just for the fun of it. No, they don't feel better just to be putting _something_ in the hive. Most of us are too time and cash strapped to waste time and money doing something unnecessary. In a perfect world, bees would fight off the mites themselves and thrive through Nosema C infections, but most beeks have learned, just like you, that sometimes, to save your colony, the best option is to medicate them. We ALL wish it weren't so.
Sheri


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## dbest (Aug 9, 2005)

The way we keep bees "commercially" has been changing. The number of hives per employee has gone down over the past 10 years. Many of us were quick to notice the shortcomings of the the "letalone" system and have changed visiting schedules. We used to visit a hive once every 4-6 weeks during the summer, now its 3-5 depending on wheather they're pollenating or attempting to make honey. The only way to increase visits without scaling down is to add good workers, which of course increases costs. One depressing fact my father pointed out to me is that our bottem line is still less now with 2500 hives than it was in 1988 with 1000.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Interesting questions Barry
I think the majority of new beekeepers are hobbyists. I've seen a huge increase in interest in beekeeping as a hobby locally and I suspect some will get bitten so hard they will want to move into commercial operation. I know of a couple cases of this here but they are far outnumbered by those just wanting a couple for the back yard, for personal honey and enjoyment.
We have seen increased commercial operators as well, and also an increase in size of many of the operations we have been familiar with for years. I think you can safely blame that on the almonds. This increase in cash flow justifies more hired help which allows for more bees and to justify keeping someone employed you need enough work to keep them busy, again, this requires more bees. As Denny says, if you resist adding more bees than you do employees to work them you can gain in efficiency not lose. But many commercials are so used to be overworked they just add more bees for everyone to _still_ be overworked.
I know of a couple cases where these employees branched out on their own as well, sometimes hitching rides with their employer to almonds.

Larger operations have the benefits of size but also there are the drawbacks you hit on. While there are efficiencies of a larger scale, there is often lower honey production per colony. Size still seems to have the upper hand as more bees, even with smaller per hive production, are necessary to bring home the bacon. Of course, everything is local and retailing one's hive products can help but I don't know of any commercials that make a majority of their income from retailing. 
Personally, we only pollinate almonds and in that situation the more bees the cheaper per colony to stay out there and do whatever needs to be done to them. 
All that said, John and I say every year we are cutting back on numbers so life is less frantic.
Sheri


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Barry: 

I'm under the impression that operations have gotten larger over the last 10 years. On the commercial side of things the industry is aging. The trend for all agricultural production has been towards larger operations, beekeeping is no exception. One bright light in the last 5 years of american beekeeping has been good almond pollination fees. Now that could be changing, time will tell, with the water restrictions, pricing of almonds etc... Without that good fee many a commercial guy would have been gone. The only other bright light is the renewed interest in hobby beekeeping. So there seems to be some new blood. Of the many a few will be shinning stars and will rise to the ranks of commercial beekeeping. 

Beekeeping does have one really good thing going for it. You can start with one hive in the spring and end up with 5 in the fall. Next spring you can split again to bring the numbers up. As beekeepers we can start with a modest amount of hives and if we have the drive, ambition and skills can end up with a colossal amount of hives. It's impossible to take 1 acre of land of make 5 acres of land from the 1. That's the great thing about beekeeping. Fom every hive a have this year I sold either a hive or a nuc from it and yet I still have it. It's kinda like the stock market, I sold it and yet I still have it.

In beekeeping you have to be able to keep them alive, then you need to be able to make hives explode, then you need to be able to take advantage of the strong hives either through bee sales pollination jobs or honey production.

I think the toughest part in American beekeeping are the poor prices being paid to the producers. Today's price is ok to good, not fantastic. I'm speaking more of the historical prices paid to producers. As a producer if Iget good prices it's easier to spend more money on labour, patties, liquid sucrose queens if it's what it takes to keep them alive and well.

Jean-Marc


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Bud Dingler said:


> In the upper midwest our hives are typically packed full with pollen and honey by October. right now my 2 story hives have little brood but the upper deep is jam packed with honey and pollen and the cluster is in the bottom deep.
> .


Septemer 1st I sent a couple semi loads of pollen sub to a keeper in the north east corner of N Dakota. He put on seven pounds of sub per hive.

Funny thing, he said last week all the hives that got sub were brooding, the hives that didn't get any were broodless.


You can lead a mule to water but you can't force it to drink.


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## John Smith (Jan 31, 2006)

When we learn what High Fructose Corn Syrup is doing to our kids, it seems impossible to believe that it is not pivotal in CCD. For sure it is not the only factor, there are too many strong contenders to contribute, but the commercialisation of bees has always brought out the weaknesses in the species. 

Pollination is far more 'commercialised' than honey production, in that the health of the bee is not directly measured by their best product. Get it wrong in honey production, and you're broke. Get it wrong in pollination, and you may still get paid, assuming you present with some bees. 

It other words, getting it wrong is more permissible in pollination than in honey production. Pollination is more 'forgiving.'

There are times when all of ones chickens come home to roost. Times when all of ones problems present at the one time. Times when lady luck is on vacation. Call it what you will. When the planets line up against bees, they are as helpless as we are against such bad vibes.

If it were only the bees that are in trouble, one could look hard and long at these specific factors, but if you don't observe that the whole world is in trouble, in myriad ways, then please let me know which newspaper you read.

Saturn and Uranus are in opposition. This too shall pass! Lady Luck will come back! My challenge is to still be here for her homecoming!

Cheers,
JohnS


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

John Smith said:


> When we learn what High Fructose Corn Syrup is doing to our kids, it seems impossible to believe that it is not pivotal in CCD. Cheers,
> JohnS


Just keep in mind John that kids grow up and hopfully last 75+ years, the bees don't even make it 75 days.

But your point is well taken.


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## JBG (Jul 11, 2009)

Hey there JS, Missed ya! That HFC is way overused I like pure organic Brazil cane myself. You are right about Honey Production. Are you in the know on astronomy? I got a design that needs somebody who knows what a siderial drive is. Same as it ever was. Keep in mind the Universe is a big place! More to it than a few planets.


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## John Smith (Jan 31, 2006)

I hear you, Keith, but unfortunately I don't share your optimism. Obesity is a killer. It will take another miracle to keep the average age from plummeting.

Have you read the book, "The Honey Revolution" yet?

Unfortunately we are all locked into the system for the sake of our livelihood. It may be a mistake. When our outgoings exceed our income, our upkeep becomes our downfall!

With one third of western populations obese, another third leaning that way, one has to ask himself just how sustainable we are. Can the remaining third bear up under the weight?

Eat Honey, feed it to your kids, leave some for your bees, make your honey buyer pay.

Cheers,

JohnS


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Newbie here. If the CA almond growers want pollinators, why don't they keep their own bees? Lots of crops in CA so there should be a long nectar/pollen season. And if bees can't survive in CA - well, that's significant, right there.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

KelpticFest said:


> Newbie here. If the CA almond growers want pollinators, why don't they keep their own bees? .


I am sure there are some that do just that. But I bet it is extremely difficult to have both the skills of a Commercial beek and the skills of a Commercial Orchardman.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

In turn, that sounds like an excellent job opportunity for Californians. Can't tell me they're over-employed out there ...


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## benstung (Mar 20, 2011)

the bees need nourishment not mono culture


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

benstung said:


> the bees need nourishment


Stop! we have the winning answer.

Benstung, I didn't know you had the cure for CCD. lol


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## simplyhoney (Sep 14, 2004)

How in the world do you all have time to blog this much in the spring? Theres bees to be made in them thar hills. This memo may shed some light.............or not. Big Ag is not helping us or themselves. Rumor has it that Clothianidin is being linked to white nose syndrome in bats, and amphibian deaths as we type.

http://www.beyondpesticides.org/pollinators/clothianidinepamemo110210.pdf
Pony up some dough and lets get on the Mass GC.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

If the population of this planet was about 10% of what it currently is... we probably could feed it's inhabitants with far more natural (and sustainable) means..... but until then - I can't figure it out.


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## Apiator (Apr 8, 2011)

KelpticFest said:


> Newbie here. If the CA almond growers want pollinators, why don't they keep their own bees? Lots of crops in CA so there should be a long nectar/pollen season. And if bees can't survive in CA - well, that's significant, right there.



Around a lot of the orchards, there really isn't much else. It seems strange to say that there isn't a year-round food supply for bees in California... but that's monoculture for you.

Or like here... I can drive 50 miles down a road and see nothing but wheat on either side. Occasionally a pivot or two of corn, and that's your biodiversity in industrial farm-land.


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## Happy Honey Farm (Feb 14, 2010)

Does anyone know when it is going to be on tv again?


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