# Filling a tob bar hive in the cold



## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

I'm about to fill my top bar hive here in Central Massachusetts, and it's 33 degrees and snowing. I'm a little concerned it's too cold so I'm thinking about throwing a blanket and tarp over it overnight. Is this overkill? I'll add some pics when I get done, I'm going to set it up now.

Thanks! 

Shmalphy


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

don't cover them with anything.
assuming you have no drawn comb to install them on, just wait until your temps are 40* or better. they wont be able to fly or do any work below that temp so you might as well let them stay clustered and content in the package in the basement or somewhere cool and dark. there is nothing to gain by rushing an install without drawn comb when the bees wont be able to fly anyway.
if you need to install now due to your schedule, then just wait for the warmest part of the day and get it done quickly. blanket or tarp is bad idea. they need to breath. maybe a piece of styrofoam insulation board on top if you had it. but really they have no brood to care for and should be fine with just entrance reduced.


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

Well I didn't see this until after I installed them. I would have probably waited,the guy seling the bees was too busy to answer many questions but he did say it would be best to unbox them today (if I had drawn foundation, but I didn't even know what that was until I googled it). 

This is my first time getting bees and I don't have drawn comb. It was pretty warm in the sun when I put them out. I'll just have to hope for the best I suppose.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

what did you do for them in regards to feeding syrup? At cold temps, the syrup is too cold for them to take. You may need to rewarm it twice a day for them so they don't starve.


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

i put 3 jars in the back of the hive behind an excluder. I also added a pollen cake my friend gave me. Ill put a warm feeder on the entrance for cold mornings and evenings. 

Looks like the overnight low is 32, tomorrow high of 46 low 36, then weds high of 61 low of 27.. 43 for a high following 3 days. Fri it's down to 23 for a low, I am a bit concerned about that.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

shmalphy said:


> i put 3 jars in the back of the hive behind an excluder. I also added a pollen cake my friend gave me. Ill put a warm feeder on the entrance for cold mornings and evenings.
> 
> Looks like the overnight low is 32, tomorrow high of 46 low 36, then weds high of 61 low of 27.. 43 for a high following 3 days. Fri it's down to 23 for a low, I am a bit concerned about that.


The bees are not going to be moving around a lot right now. They will have little chance of getting to the feeders unless they are right next to the cluster of bees. It is too cold for them to draw comb at the moment so you don't need to worry about them drawing comb all over the feeder. I'd strongly suggest that you get back in there tomorrow morning and warm that syrup up and move the feeder directly where they are clustered at.

The front feeder will be helpful for when it is 50 or so during the daytime. They will use the pollen once they have drawn comb and start rearing brood. Things are critical for you in the next couple of days to keep them fed. If they don't have carbs to provide energy to vibrate their wing muscles, they can't keep everyone warm.


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

Awesome, thank you so much ruthiesbees. I will get up early and heat up syrup. I am assuming it should be warm like a baby bottle, not piping hot.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I would just echo Ruth's words: "Things are *critical *for you in the next couple of days to keep them fed."

Without the presence of combs the bees will now be huddled together is a ball, most probably in a topmost corner of the box trying to keep warm, and (unless it's warm enough for them to break that cluster) unwilling to move to wherever the feed is - feed which is absolutely essential to them right now if they are to survive. So - in this situation *you* must take the feed to *them*, wherever they happen to be clustered, unless the weather provides some fortuitous warm spells.

A couple of thoughts: 

Whenever you supply warm syrup, check the level very carefully and mark the jar if necessary. Then, if that level isn't seen to change, then they're obviously not taking the syrup ...

Fondant (soft candy ?) is often taken in low temperatures when syrup isn't. The problem, as with the syrup, is locating it close to the cluster. You mentioned a friend giving you a pollen cake (?) - if he/she would let you have a spoonful or two of honey, then that smeared on the fondant would help to initially attract the bees onto it - as fondant has no smell or taste. Don't be tempted to use shop-bought honey though.

An ideal 'temporary fix' for this unfortunate situation - although a fix which may not be practicable for you, of course - is to rig-up some kind of heating system, so that the temperature inside the hive is just above cluster temperature. At the moment I have one such system in place which has enabled a micro-colony of some 200 bees to survive from mid-January until now. When free from the need to cluster, bees can then search-out whatever food supplies have been provided for them.

Wishing you the very best of luck,
LJ


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

I put a small 200w heater in the hive with a thermostat set to 50. Is that a good temp? Fantastic idea, little_john I do appreciate it. I already had the heater and thermostat, don't know why I didn't think of it but thank you for mentioning it.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

shmalphy said:


> I put a small 200w heater in the hive with a thermostat set to 50. Is that a good temp? Fantastic idea, little_john I do appreciate it. I already had the heater and thermostat, don't know why I didn't think of it but thank you for mentioning it.


200 Watts - WOW - thats a lot more than I had in mind. (I manage with 15-30W) - but, if there's a thermostat there, you should be ok. Still - monitor the temperature towards the top closely for the first few hours, until you're more confident that you're not cooking them !

Just check to see when they're happy enough to break cluster and start wandering around - I set mine to 65-70 F - but suggest you increase the temperature a little at a time until they become mobile.

Good luck.
LJ


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Give them warm syrup once a day until the nights are 45 F or so most of the time or the days are in the upper 60s F most of the time. ANy heat over 15 w is way too much. 7 w would be about right... a terrarium heater is pretty nice for such things.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

So much depends on hive volume, amount of insulation, heat loss and so forth. At the moment I have one half of a divided Deep Long Hive with a 15W heater-frame in place hooked-up to a simple ON-OFF controller. On mild days it can maintain 20 C (68F) ok, with about a 50% 'ON' time - so I'd agree in general with a 7W figure for an uncontrolled heat source. 

But - over the last few weeks we've been hit by a couple of Siberian 'weather bombs' which brought seriously sub-zero temperatures, and my 15W heater couldn't maintain target temperature under those conditions, even when 'ON' 100% of the time. I could have usefully used 30W for just those few days - so that's where my 15-30W figure comes from. Having too much wattage (within reason) should never present a problem providing there's a thermostat or some other form of control in place.
LJ


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

Yes, thank you little_john. The heater only runs for a short time then shuts off. My other option was to box in the stand under it and add a heater there to sort of give the bees radiant floor heat, but this was easier. I just added a wifi thermometer so I can monitor it, but they have clearly broken the cluster and are eating syrup, which is a huge relief. I started at 50, then turned it up 5 degrees at a time til it hit 65 and I saw them on the feeder.

The Hive







The heater







I replaced 2 of the jars with the heater


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Wifi thermometer ? I'm seriously impressed ... ! 

To be honest, when I first suggested a heating source, it was very much in the spirit of "... it would be great IF you had ..." - I really didn't expect you to have such equipment immediately available. LOL

Glad to hear that they're feeding ok - I'm really pleased. Nice photos, BTW.


FWIW, this is my own QD (Quick 'n' Dirty) lash-up:









I've just raised the temperature to 25-30C (77-86F), as I've donated a frame of brood, and there still aren't enough bees to cover that frame adequately. This particular colony has been on 'life-support' for 11 weeks now ... but we're getting there(*) - albeit somewhat slowly ... 

LJ

(*) 'there' being saving an aging grandmother queen, who's colony largely deserted her for one of her granddaughters (next door). The next challenge will be trying to raise more queens from the old lady before she's finally superseded ...


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

Fascinating. Reading that, I am getting excited about the possibilities adding a heater can provide for the winter and other situations like that. I really don't think I would have thought of it, we always just let the chickens go without heat and never lost a bird to cold, and I have only ever heard about insulating a hive. I admit I should have probably researched a bit more ahead but posting this thread was my (obviously effective lol) backup plan, so thank you for the input.

I have been indoor gardening for awhile, so between that and raising chickens I have a collection of tools for such projects. I keep a bin in the basement for "science experiments" with some old kitchen gadgets and random appliances for when such a need arises. I use the wifi thermometer to keep track of the fireplace which heats a garden because it graphs the temps, it was not very expensive (LaCrosse Brand) and I find myself using it anywhere I want to track changes over the course of a day or 2, like in the chicken coop or a greenhouse. and you can add multiple sensors. It's a really neat product, I had intended on trying to make something like that based on a middleschool computer science project I saw using a Arduino here: http://farmhack.org/tools/remote-compost-monitor 

I never really managed to wrap my head around it before getting this one, but if you are familiar with that stuff or have the time it seems like a neat project.


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

Temp update: I put the thermometer on the side with the bees and hung the external sensor outside the box. It is 48.8 inside now and 36.8 outside. I am going out now to move the sensor to the other side and turn the thermostat to 70 and check again shortly. They were covering the base of the feeder earlier I will get a few pics.


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

Even at 75 it's still not warm enough


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

glad to hear they are taking syrup. Don't get carried away with all the fun toys if this is your only hive.

For those looking for heaters, they actually make a real one for the beehive. www.warmbees.com. I've used them for a couple of years on the smaller nucs when temps dip into the 30's for the two weeks of winter we get here in coastal Virginia (this year it was a lot longer, snow forecasted for Sat.)

And the temperature probes are a standard piece of equipment for me in each hive. I know if their temp changes much from what it had been the day before, the colony is in trouble. Saved one of my big ones last month just by watching it.

I get my temp probes from www.ambientweather.com


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

Well it's staying pretty consistent on the queen bee side (red line). The humidity (blue line) is also the queen bee side. The green line is the syrup side right next to the heater. It spikes while the heater is running then cools off. I think there is a nice blend of microclimates, very excited to see this idea working out, I feel much more confident than I did yesterday.


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

Nice source for temp probes ruthiesbees, I will be getting my next ones there. I already had everything I am using. Hopefully I can pull the heater out within a week or so, it's going to be 23 Friday night tho. I didn't know that the temp could be used to monitor health, thanks.


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

Well it looks like they survived. I don't expect to see any more nights below freezing, maybe close to it tho. The heater kept it 50-65 unless it was really windy.

They have been eating syrup and candy. I have to pull out the queen cell later today when I get home from work and inspect the bars to be sure they are building straight. I also need to figure out when I should remove the excluder between the syrup and bees, and when to stop giving syrup exactly.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

shmalphy said:


> They have been eating syrup and candy. I have to pull out the queen cell later today when I get home from work and inspect the bars to be sure they are building straight.


Queen cell? Please tell my your phone did an auto-correct and you mean queen cage, which should have been removed after day 3 to prevent wonky comb. You will keep feeding them until they don't take it anymore, or have about 15 bars of drawn comb.


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

ruthiesbees said:


> Queen cell? Please tell my your phone did an auto-correct and you mean queen cage, which should have been removed after day 3 to prevent wonky comb. You will keep feeding them until they don't take it anymore, or have about 15 bars of drawn comb.


Yeah, I am not yet adept with terminology, I meant the cage she came in. They were building around it a bit and building against the divider instead of on the top bars. My plan is to wait until it's warmer this weekend and open it up and attach some of the comb they have built to a bar with some wire. It hasn't really been over 50f much, if at all the past few weeks here.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

You might find that the wire tears through the soft comb. I like to use painter's tape or masking tape.


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

Great tip on the tape. It worked perfectly, and they are building all straight comb now. I put a bar with taped on comb on every other bar, and an empty bar in between. I just went out to look at them the other day and spaced the combs apart by a bar again to ensure they keep building straight.


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## shmalphy (Apr 2, 2018)

The hive is now very full and seems to be doing great. I made another hive so I can put the combs down when I open it to inspect. It's completely filled, end to end, and I am starting to think there isn't enough space between the bars. What is the ideal space between bars and how many bars should there be? I am going to add spacers to the bars on the new hive so they are always proper distance.

I am thinking about taking out 3-5 combs with a mix of honey, pollen, and brood and putting them in the new hive with a new queen. I will be adding heat for the winter, with a better setup than I used this year. Anything I should consider before I go ahead and do this? Any input is appreciated.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

shmalphy said:


> ..... I will be adding heat for the winter....


Bad idea.
You will be just interrupting normal wintering process.
Bees need no auxiliary heating (or cooling; or any high tech contraptions trying to "help them"). 
None of it.
They survived 40 millions years and will survive more just as well (for a perspective).

If you mean to winter a smallish hive (nuc), instead just feed them now so to help them build up for the winter.
There is plenty of time yet to do it as normally as possible this time around.

Bar spacing has been discussed much.
Search and see.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am starting to think there isn't enough space between the bars. 

There is no space between bars in a top bar hive... The width of the bar sets the distance between combs.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

shmalphy said:


> ... and I am starting to think there isn't enough space between the bars. What is the ideal space between bars and how many bars should there be? I am going to add spacers to the bars on the new hive so they are always proper distance.
> 
> I am thinking about taking out 3-5 combs with a mix of honey, pollen, and brood and putting them in the new hive with a new queen. I will be adding heat for the winter, with a better setup than I used this year. Anything I should consider before I go ahead and do this? Any input is appreciated.


The actual space between each comb can vary based on what the bees are storing in each comb. This photo is one I did a couple of years ago for a science paper. We were measuring the comb so I had to take each one out of the hive and flip it over. This is exactly how they were down inside the hive. You can see some are "fatter" than others. Especially a the top where the comb connects to the topbar. The bees frequently enlarge that area for honey stores. I don't like using spacers in my topbar hives. The bars are either 1 3/8" or 1 5/8", just because that is the kit I buy from Beeline apiary in MI.

As for making a split this time of year, I'd caution against that, especially in MA where winters are more harsh than here in VA.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

If you are trying to put 2 bars back together, and the comb surfaces will end up touching, or being closer than "bee space", which is 3/8 inch I think, then you will want a spacer.

I just wanted to confirm that the bars do not currently have a space between them - that they are flush together - because otherwise robber bees or yellowjackets can get in and rob out a hive, or at least get a lot of house bees killed who are trying to defend their stores. :/

I have made spacers, which I put between bars where the honey storage got fat. I'd rather not have them, but I don't want to just cut fat honey chunks flat so the bars will fit. And I have a lot of comb where the honey part got too fat. 

As to making a split, if you want to do that, it is vital that you purchase a queen rather than have your bees raise their own. Winter is coming... you have enough time to probably get the second top bar half filled out, if you start in the next 10 days with a purchased queen. Any later and what happens is the temps get too cold for the bees to draw any new comb, so they will be stuck with what they have. You will need to feed gallons of sugar syrup, inside the hive with a feeder, to get the bees to draw out enough comb. I mean that feeder should never go empty. And you will want to start the new queen with at least 5 bars of brood and 2 of stores.

In order for the bees to be in danger of swarming, which is the only downside of a crowded hive, the bees need to have 1) lots of young bees, 2) a nectar flow, and 3) a queen. This time of year, the bees will not have a nectar flow. Right? you're not feeding sugar syrup any more? As soon as they have all their comb and have a reasonable chance of filling that comb with stores, we let them do their bee thing. The queen will start to shrink her brood nest, resulting in fewer young bees. You can give them more room by taking out LOTS of honey now. A large hive will make lots of honey. If the bees have filled the hive with more than 20 bars of brood comb that is actually full of brood, well, they won't for long because the forage will dry up. 

So be aware that in spring you will have to split this hive or you will have it swarm - but it will be a serious honey maker too. 

For winter prep - first, the top winter killer of bees is varroa mites. This is the time of year to check for mites, and think about what you will do if there are more than 3% or so of mites now. A beekeeper club should have a mentor list or meetings, and you can find someone to show you how to check if you want. Or check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgPfT9FQxLc I use a small washbin to shake the bees off the comb into first, then pour that into my shake container. I have screened bottom boards under my top bars, and I do oxalic acid vaporization through the screen (I have to move the wand every 30 sec around the screen because the crystals clog up on the screen after that much time). You MUST use a proper mask to do this - I use this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LXF98DQ/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and eye pro. Because I am basically under the hive bathed in the vapor. :{

MAQS or Formic Pro strips should work too, placed along the side of the hive wall, probably at the brood nest/honey divide. Don't do those unless temps will be low 80s for 1st 5 days of treatment.

If you do nothing to treat for mites, many people find at least half their hives die. If you take a minute and click through, you can select "used varroa treatment" and see survival rates for people who did and did not treat, for any state and year. https://bip2.beeinformed.org/survey/

If you check and mite counts are low, then you have peace of mind and a sense of how well the queen's genetics are coping with mites. But check again in Sept for sure. 

Second is wind protection, if you have an exposed yard. 

To survive winter, the bees need stores (I find they need about 1 bar of honey for every bar covered with bees - so 5 bars covered with bees requires 10 bars, 5 brood ones that they are on and 5 honey filled ones beyond the brood ones), low mite predation (they suck the fat stores so winter bees can't survive winter), and wind protection - the bees provide the heat.  If you do try to heat the hive, you risk keeping the bees more active so they spend too much energy moving around instead of in a low-energy-consuming cluster. You can store them in a barn or shed - it must be 40 degrees or below that or the bees will fly. 

Good luck and happy bee watching!


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Oh and be sure to check the front of the hive for pure honey combs, that don't have brood. If you are seeing lots of brood at the rear of the hive, the queen may be laying at the rear instead of the front of the hive. Be very very careful removing the first comb, expect it to break, I like tongs to help pull out bits, and you can use the J-tool hive tool and slide it between the bottom of the comb and wall and pull UPWARDS to break comb attachments. There will be comb attachments for honey comb. The smoker is pretty important for this, because the smoke can be directed at the comb-wall area you are working and move bees out of the way so you crush fewer, and btw expect the bees to be more defensive than if you go in at the rear. 

I make it sound like so much fun, don't I!


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