# crisco patties



## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Its a very common practice for the control of tracheal mites. Mix powdered sugar and crisco to make a "hamburger patty". Stack them between newspaper or wax paper to carry them out to the hives. You can leave them in year round, even during a honey flow to help fight tracheal mites. . I'm guessing he does them in the fall since tracheal mites often kill overwintering colonies, and he has 300 of them. I do them year round. Some people mix terramycin with them but many, including myself, think that is a very bad idea


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

as I have not yet applied terramycin, please explain how mixing with crisco patties could be a bad idea thanks


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## AJ Christ (Jun 8, 2005)

What kind of ratio? How much sugar to how much Crisco? And how does it work in controlling mites?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>he mixes crisco with sugar and puts a patty per hive in the fall....what is the basis for it's use?

They are used to control tracheal mite reproduction.

>as I have not yet applied terramycin, please explain how mixing with crisco patties could be a bad idea thanks 

Well, the crisco patties attract small hive beetles and that might be a bad idea. The terramycin IN the crisco patties, I've been told, has been linked to causing terramycin resistant AFB and has not been as effective as dusting.

Using terramycin at all, is probably a bad idea, since it only hides the AFB and doesn't kill the spores and leads to resistant strains of AFB.

Interestingly when I quit using Terramycin 28 years ago, when NOT using it was considered iresponsible by all the experts. Now the experts say that not using it was the right thing to do. Go figure.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Here is a recipie for 12 patties

(4 3/4 cup)of granulated suagar mixed with (1 1/2 cup)all-vegetable shortening

I usually just mix about half and half and add more sugar till its "right". At my local bee club they said you use powdered sugar not granualted, but I've been going by extension agent's recommendation (above recipie). So maybe powdered or granulated dosen't matter.

How the vegetable oil works I save for someone who knows what they are talking about

I'll try and get the terramycin issue right. I'm sure some pro-terramycin person will rebut, but you should hear both sides of the idea. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will correct any errors on the "no doseing" side of the argument. 

Leaving terramycin in the hive for long periods of time increases the likelyhood that terramycin resistant foulbrood will develop. The patties can stay in there at least 3 months, they are there usually longer.

Terramycin is an antibiotic.

Overuse of antibiotics has lead to resistant bacterias in many areas of agriculture and human health care.

Foulbrood is thought to be present in most hives. It only becomes a problem when it infects the colony at a large enough rate to notice its having an effect on the colony (killing brood).

If you have foulbrood in the presence of an antibiotic, it will kill the bacterial that are easily killed by it and the ones that are resistant to it are "selected for". The non-resistant ones are "selected against". What you end up with is much more terramycin resistant foulbrood living in your hive than you would have if you had taken no action. The patties confound the problem even more because you are leaving small amounts of antibiotic in the hive. This is thought to increase resistance in other areas of health care, so it should in beekeeping too. Take for example, when you are perscribed an antibiotic, you are told to take the entire perscription and not stop before its gone. That is done to help prevent resistance buildup of the bacteria. you want to take enough antibiotics to crash the population enough for your body to keep the rest of the bacterial population under control. The hive is the overall body in the case of beekeeping. Take this idea furthur and you see that dosing your hive every year, usually twice a year with antibiotics will only increase you chances of resistant foulbrood. 

It is better to learn to recognize foulbrood, and deal with it quickly if it arises. You will then have terrymycin at your disposal to prevent the spread to other hives. Hopefully your foulbrood strain won't be resistant, but many strains are resitant now due to the regular use of terrymycin.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Interestingly when I quit using Terramycin 28 
> years ago, when NOT using it was considered 
> iresponsible by all the experts. 

Plain Crisco with no drugs added was never a bad 
idea until the SHB showed up. How could it
hurt? What more could you ask for in the way
of a cheap and effective non-toxic way to deal
with Tracheal Mites?

> Now the experts say that not using it was the 
> right thing to do. Go figure.

That was then, this is now. Even experts learn
things over time, ya know. 

If you find tracheal mites these days, the proper 
reaction still involves Crisco, but the "best 
practices" approach is to take the entire tub of 
Crisco, and shove your queen suppliers head into it.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I can't wait to hear the discussion when the information on the other uses and benefits of terramycin is finally brought to light.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Now forgive me for being DUMB, but im a newbee and I wasn't going to treat for T-mites, I have Kona queens and there suppose to be T-mite resistant( now I know this might not mean much but I was hoping), I also have feral hive's I got from removals, I'm not going to treat with patties simply because Im in Georgia and I know the SHB is here, what do yall think my hives chances are ( by not being killed by T-mites)??


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Don't know your chances, but menthol is a good, not very toxic, way to prevent tracheal mites. 

Although, I would think whats the use of a T-mite resistant queen if you still have to treat. Consider, Kona isn't Georgia either.

This leads me to a question I was wondering.
What is a good way for beekeepers without microcopes to look for symptoms of tracheal mite? I've herd "bees dying off in the winter with plenty of food, and diminished population". That seems alittle late and not very accurate.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Answers to my questions;

PARASITIC MITES OF HONEY BEES: Life
History, Implications, and Impact
Diana Sammataro1, Uri Gerson2, and Glen Needham3
Annu. Rev. Entomol. 2000.45:519-548. 

524 SAMMATARO n GERSON n NEEDHAM
"Diagnosis HBTM are not visible to the naked eye, making diagnosis difficult.
Consequently, beekeepers often use unreliable bee stress symptoms, which
include dwindling populations, weak bees crawling on the ground with disjointed
hind-wings (called K-wings) and abandoned, overwintered hives full of honey.
The only certain way to identify mite infestation is to dissect the tracheae of
bees and visualize the parasites. Bees are collected in winter or early spring, when
HBTM populations are highest; fewer mites are found in the summer, due to the
dilution effect caused by the rapid emergence of many young bees."


526 SAMMATARO n GERSON n NEEDHAM
"An alternate, environmentally safe control is to apply a vegetable
shortening and sugar patty at peak mite populations. A quarter-pound (113 g)
patty, placed on the top bars at the center of the broodnest where it comes in
contact with the most bees, will protect young bees (which are most at risk) from
becoming infested. The oil appears to disrupt the questing female mite searching
for a new host (181). Because young bees emerge continuously, the patty must
be present for an extended period. The optimal application season is in the fall
and early spring, when mite levels are rising.
Resistant Bees Several lines of bees resistant to tracheal mites have been developed,
starting with Brother Adams Buckfast bees (23). Some of this stock is
commercially reared and sold to beekeepers. Resistance to HBTM seems to be
accomplished by the increased grooming behavior "


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

To answer the why the patties work with trachaels is the method used by the parasite to find the host. Trachael mites are attracted to larvae by the hydrocarbons they give off in respiration and enter throught the trachael tubes. Both menthol and Crisco mask those odors making if more difficult for the mites to locate the hosts. I'm of the same mindset as MichaelW when it comes to terramycin in patties. It delivers a steady, often sublethal dose if left on past the reccommended treatment time which allows the AFB to build resistance. One can determine trachel mite infestations by microscopic examination quite easily. A sample of bees should be preserved in alcohol. Using tweezers carefully remove the head and collar of the exoskelatan, kind of twisting gently and slowly pulling out the trachael tubes. The tubes should be white, if they appear brown and splotchy then trachael mites are indicated. I believe more beekeepers loose there winter bees to TM's than they expect.


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## Pugs (Jul 15, 2004)

Has anyone tried 1/2 a sheet of blue shop towels soaked in canola oil? Many people do that out here. Any oil works, but the canola works best from what I'm told. 

The bees tear the towel up to get it out of the hive and get the canola oil on them and the T. mites can't figure out which bees are the young ones. At least that is what I've been told.

I'll try to find the source of the info.

Pugs


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

Is a disecting scope strong enough to look for tracheal mites?


David


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

A speker from University of Georgia was recently at our bee meeting. The last thing he told us was "treat for T. mites". He said they get calls from keeprs wondering why they lost their colines. He stated more time than not it was from T. mites. He talked about how it was inexpensive and easy to treat for. Said the original studies was done with powdered sugar but granulated would work and is what most people use because of expense. Also said the original recipe was with vegetable oil in the liquid form(and that was what he would recommend- don't know exactly why, maybe some more experience could tell you why.)
He then expressed again "please treat for T. mites".
Just passing on the info., as I'm only in my first year!!!


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> He then expressed again "please treat 
> for T. mites".

If anyone had any backbone, packages would be
purchased every year, and sent to a decent
lab to find out which suppliers were shipping
what diseases and pests along with their bees,
and the results would be made public.

Even though tracheal mite resistance is one of
the things that has clear and tangible positive
results, something that can be obtained through
the result of simple "selection methods" by
queen/package producers, only about 1/2 of the
producers actually ship tracheal mite resistant
stock.

Queens and packages are a product.
Beekeepers pay serious money for the product.
We should demand value for our dollars, and
hold the producers accountable.

ABJ (May 2000) had this graph in it.
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/tracheal.htm

It was a classic example of what can be done
with ease in regard to tracheal mite susceptibility
as a function of queen/package producer.
Sadly, names were NOT named.

The full paper is here:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=2744&page=12


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Is a disecting scope strong enough to look for tracheal mites?

Yes! Even a kid's TOY microscope is good
enough. Even headband-mounted magnifying
glasses are strong enough to see the specks
and discoloration in the trachea.

All you need is a bright light source, some
sort of magnification, and a little patience.


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

I agree Jim!!! But since suppliers are not being held accountable, do you think the next best thing to do is treat, even with the shb problems (which I have experienced first hand).
Being new I am curious treat or not treat?


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## Propolis30 (Aug 25, 2005)

I use the grease patties and have had good luck with them. I also add a few drops of pepermint oil to each patty.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Any follow-up on Pugs' question re: oil-steeped towels? Seems reasonable and certainly less hassle than grease Play-Doh.


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## Beekeeper Bill (Jul 22, 2005)

Pugs I know of at least one person , and myself that uses the towel and oil and it seems to work fine. I bought 2 colonies from this person and that is what they were doing so I continue to do the same . 
Bill


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## Donna Marie Honeybee by the Sea (Jun 29, 2005)

Is there any evidence of SHB being attracted to the paper towel oil?? I had such a time with melting grease patties in the heat here, I am thinking the paper towel with perhaps olive oil (its the only oil I use) might be worth a try, especially if it does not attract SHB...anyone have a thought on that? Thanks Donna


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I guess if I was buying other peoples queens, I might have to rethink it, but I don't think I'd do it any differently. I don't treat for Tracheal mites at all. If I have queens that are suceptable, I want to know about it and I don't want to breed from them. If I was getting them from bee breeders I'd want to know that too.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

My signature line mentions all of my treatment methods. If my bees suddenly die it won't be because I kept them weak and soft by babying them.


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

Joseph, do you check for varroa? Do you ever get any? If so, what do you do? I want to run my hives without treatment or at least only natural treatments. Please advise.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I check for Varroa by opening drone brood and examining adult bees for mites hitching a ride (taking a high-res digital photo helps to spot the riding mites). Until this season I could always find mites on sealed drone brood and a few, here and there on adult workers. Recently I haven't been able to find a single mite. I even cage a few hundred bees every other day for my wife's, MS 20 beesting apitherapy and none yet have been carrying mites. I still think there must be at least a few around, but I don't wish to go to excessive lengths to locate these unwanted guests. Earlier this year it was easy to find several on nearly every drone pupa.

What I have done to keep my bees healthy:

1) Started with feral survivor bees captured from open air nest beneath neighbors mobile home.
2) 4 years later, once I had learned about Varroa, I began to migrate the bees to small-cell.
3) I use slatted racks built into my bottom boards and the sides of the brood supers.
4) I use all medium depth supers, brood and honey, both.
5) I avoid feeding with anything except Robin Hooded honey. I hardly imagine the bees feeding themselves, processed "sugar" or "HFCS" without our intervention.
6) Possibly the most important thing is, <"I never subject the bees to, "treatments">. It has been speculated that "treatments" introduce stresses that wouldn't ever be there in a strictly natural environment.

Bottom line: I really don't know why my bees don't have any serious problems with mites or diseases.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

That's what I wanna do!

Hawk


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

Thanks, Joseph.
I would presume that the crash of your hives possibly could indicate varroa. Your continued success must indicate lack of same.


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## dgoodman (May 30, 2005)

We were discussing patties in class the other night. My instructor made the point that the patties get in the way, and the bees are slow to access them. Instead, he recommends applying the mixture directly on the top bars of the frames. The bees immediately access the mix, which means there spreading it through the hive right away.
I have been using patties, and I must agree, they do get in the way a bit. I look forward to trying his technique.

DG


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## dgoodman (May 30, 2005)

We were discussing patties in class the other night. My instructor made the point that the patties get in the way, and the bees are slow to access them. Instead, he recommends applying the mixture directly on the top bars of the frames. The bees immediately access the mix, which means there spreading it through the hive right away.
I have been using patties, and I must agree, they do get in the way a bit. I look forward to trying his technique.

DG


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

That's a good idea.

The patties got started because they "scale" well
to larger operations. Make 'em in big batches,
freeze 'em, and toss 'em in the hives.

Spreading the stuff on top bars simply gets in
the way of HORIZONTAL movement, rather than
both some horizontal and some vertical.

If you want the bees to "access" them more,
mix in a little more sugar.


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