# sound waves



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

I know the frequency of the human voice has no effect. I have called them many things in soft and loud tones. 

Come to think of it, that makes them come to my hives 

You may be on to something!


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## pahvantpiper (Apr 25, 2006)

"I know the frequency of the human voice has no effect. I have called them many things in soft and loud tones."

LOL!!!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Dave W said:


> I know the frequency of the human voice has no effect.


Have you seen the traditional Egyptian clay tube hives? They are stacked like cordwood. Opposit end from entranve has clay plug that is removed. Beekeeper uses voice to drive bees off the honey and to other end of tube, so it can be harvested.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do you supposed that it's really the beekeepers breath and not his voice that moves the bees?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you supposed that it's really the beekeepers breath and not his voice that moves the bees?


No. I've read that it's the vibrations of the beekeepers voice...a certain pitch. Sort of like drumming bees from a gum.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Maybe is my pitch and my "vocabulary" that doesnt work w/ Varroa 

Seriously . . . I have never read anything about using sound as a varroa control.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

If I was forced to listen to loud heavy metal it would kill me!  Why not try it on mites? You might be on to something.


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## JonEdangerousli (May 8, 2007)

Play 'em some gansta' rap...:lpf:


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## marty (Nov 7, 2000)

Working with a retired PHD. That has done a lot of this type of work for example if you had a large container of plastic containers with numbers 2-7 it is possible to just melt one of the numbers out without melting the rest of them kind of like a microwave works.
In the same theory it would be possible to treat a truck load at a time exploding the mite with out damage to the honeybee's.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> No. I've read that it's the vibrations of the beekeepers voice...a certain pitch. Sort of like drumming bees from a gum.


But isn't drumming bees from a gum done by tapping the side of the bee gum w/ ones hand or a mallet? That's where the vibrations come from. Not from sound, but from the bees feeling the vibration of the box or log that they are in.

I thought that bees were deaf, unable to hear. Where are their ears?


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I thought that bees were deaf, unable to hear. Where are their ears?


Why don't you ask them or sign to them?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> But isn't drumming bees from a gum done by tapping the side of the bee gum w/ ones hand or a mallet? That's where the vibrations come from. Not from sound, but from the bees feeling the vibration of the box or log that they are in.
> 
> I thought that bees were deaf, unable to hear. Where are their ears?


Yes, that's what drumming is. But the voice too can set up vibrations. And that's what the Egyptian beekeepers did. They used their voices to set up the proper vibrations to drive the bees to the opposite end of the clay tube hive.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Think of the human ear. it is the action of "sound waves" hitting the ear drum and producing vibrations that the brain then translates into what we hear.

bees have exoskeletons. just because they do not have ears does not mean that they cannot feel the vibrations made by sound waves and respond to them.

Big Bear


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>does not mean that they cannot feel the vibrations . . .
Just "kick a hive in August"


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## JoshJames (Jun 12, 2009)

It is very possible that frequencies could be used to kill mites, or disrupt their behavior in such a way that renders them incapable of reproducing, surviving, etc. Take the link below for an example.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/09/070913-burning-water.html

It would take a while to narrow down which frequencies affect mites because of the almost (or maybe it is) limitless amounts of frequencies that can be created. But it sure would be worth a try. The military uses frequency generators of some sort for mass crowd control. It supposedly can make you feel sick and for some, lose control of their bladder. Just where does one pick up a frequency maker? I have no clue....that is waaaaay beyond my puny brain. C'mon smart people, do it for me! LOL


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dave W said:


> >does not mean that they cannot feel the vibrations . . .
> Just "kick a hive in August"


Stand next to a hive and fire off a shot gun. I'll bet you that you won't get a reaction from the bees.

Shooting the hive is different.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

and yet, if a skunk scratches at the front of a hive, guard bees come to investigate. perhaps to get eaten, but they respond all the same.

Big Bear


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bigbearomaha said:


> and yet, if a skunk scratches at the front of a hive, guard bees come to investigate. perhaps to get eaten, but they respond all the same.
> 
> Big Bear


But is that response due to a sound? Perhaps, in a way. But if the skunk came up to the hive, and the bees didn't smell it, and then it made some sort of skunk vocalization, what do you think the hives response would be? I don't know. I'm just stuck in my belief.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Skunks don't have an odor all the time. Bees are much more sensitive to a vibration, hence the skunk scratching on the front of the hive getting their attention. Here's a quick clip to review talking about the senses of bees. It includes references. 



> *Sound/Vibration perception of the honey bee*
> 
> *Honey bees do not have ears as warm blooded animals do. Sound waves are conveyed by very small vibrations of solids, liquids, or gasses. Honey bees detect these vibrations through their legs and it has been shown that mechanical vibrations cause the honey bee leg to respond. It is also believed that the bees antennae are sensitive to vibrations when they touch other bees and may contribute to communication of dancing bees and the piping noise made by the queen. In a practical sense, when the lawnmower creates sound to us, it is creating vibrations (sound waves) which are transferred to a solid (the walls and floor of the bee hive) which are then detected by the feet of the honey bee. The further away the lawnmower is from the hive the lower the vibration level.*


from:

http://www.beeclass.com/DTS/honey_bee.htm


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Well Mark, I asked Dewey....

NO do not know a reference. I think I heard that they Drum and sing - the drumming is what probably does the movement of the bees - not thier "singing". Bees have NO receptors to "hear" airborne sounds. The waggling dance has sound but they pick it up as vibrations via feet. Beekeepers used to bang on pots etc to get a swarm to land -claiming their clanging noises caused bees to settle - which swarms do (settle) after relatively short flights so if you were an ancient beekeeper following a swarm and you kept banging on your pot the bees would settle and of course you would claim credit for it.


So No Mike sorry I couldn't be of help...I have serious doubts that bees can "hear" any airborne sounds so the singing as you harvest is not likely the factor - they may also be drumming (as I have heard) or the bees may simply move away from sunlight and confusion so opening your log (or clay pipe in case of Eqypt) may simply cause the bees to move away from the light/opening of one end - whether or not the beekeeper "sings"...recognize that the world of beekeeping has many traditions and practices that can best be described as "worship" of bees...offering a nice song is probably in that tradition - respect for your bees by offering them a "song" as you "steal" their riches!!!
Trust all is well. Hope yuo and family have a good holiday season.
Dewey


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

This reminds me of worm grunting...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKNv6ZrC5mg


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

This article suggests that honey bees do have a sort of hearing, based as some have suggested in alternative sense of vibration.



> Honey bees can detect the air-particle movements associated with airborne sounds
> (Towne and Kirchner, 1989), and they do so using Johnston's organ, a chorodontal
> organ in the antennal pedicel (Dreller and Kirchner, 1993a). Air-particle
> oscillations cause the long, thin antennal flagellum to vibrate, and Johnston's
> ...


Also, from SETI  (yes, that SETI)...



> Hearing
> 
> Surprising as it may seem, bees are able to hear. They don't hear sounds in the same way as mammals however. Instead they are sensitive to a few specific frequencies of vibrations which are transmitted through the air or the physical structure of the hive. They have three sets of organs for detecting these vibrations. One set is located in the legs. These organs listen for messages transmitted through the honeycomb by the Queen. The other two sets of hearing organs are in the antennae. These function like tuning forks and are only sensitive to certain frequencies. The lower part of the antennae are sensitive to about 20 beats per second. This is the frequency associated with the waggle dance which bees use to communicate the location of food. The higher parts are sensitive to between 250 to 300 beats a second. This is the frequency at which that the wing muscles vibrate when the wings are folded. The Queens use this method of communication to "speak" to the hive and control swarming.


I think there is much more investigation that can be done in this area.

Big Bear


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Well Mark, I asked Dewey....


Another piece of the puzzle....Thanks Ann...

I ran your request for info on Egyptian singing and bees by Ann Harman. I don't have my reference books with me here in Bolivia and I knew Ann would find what we needed. 
In Chapter 20 in "The World History of Beekeeping and Honey Hunting" by Eva Crane. she found this:
"The following procedure was used for dividing colonies in both Lower and Upper Egypt according to Melior (1928) but Dr M.M. Mazeed told me in 1988 he found it only in Upper Egypt. It was done during the swarming season at the end of February or in March, in the early morning while the bees were still in the hive. The beekeeper smoked the bees from the back (as when harvesting honey) so that they (and any young queens) were crowded together at the front. Then he put his mouth to the flight entrance at the front and 'called' the bees several times. The call, which was described as kak,kak, or kak, kak, kaak or ee,ee, imitates a sound known as piping, made by young virgin queens; frequencies of the sound are discussed at the end of Section 20.6. Any virgin queens free in the hive or still in their cells were likely to reply to his 'calling,' in which case the beekeeper knew that the colony would swarm unless he took action." Etc.(how they made a divide.)


Then in another section there are comments about calling the queen -- evidently historical -- using a reed because some god called Nut (evidently goddess of the sky) responded to a reed noise; about 700 BC in Hebrew scriptures "...the Lord will whistle...for the bee from Assyria."


So it seems it has to do with the piping of virgin queens.


Once again however queen piping although audible to us, is "heard" by bees as substrate vibration. When it starts in a colony with virgin queens in cells it is picked up by others and can be quite a "noise". How a person might imitate this sound (to cause comb vibration) is quite a feat. I suspect the skilled beekeeper was using piping as his swarming forecast method (since frames are not removable in the pipe hives it would be impossible to do this inspection) and his sound imitation did not start the piping - he just listened to those colonies judged to be pretty strong (or the smoke was more important - maybe it is a factor that kicks off piping when cells present?)for piping then made his prediction. Why hasn't this been imitated by others through history? A fellow Woods had a Swarm predictor that used a change in sound by a colony as an indicator of swarming. It not longer is for sale. The problem with both methods of predicting swarming---they both are possible predicto!
!
rs ONLY at the lat moment befroe swarms cast!


Thanks to Ann we both know a lot more now>
Dewey


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> (quoting dewey caron quoting ann harmon?)A fellow Woods had a Swarm predictor that used a change in sound by a colony as an indicator of swarming. It not longer is for sale.


yes, the apidictor.
http://beedata.com/data2/listen/listenbees.htm

and of course schematics:
http://www.beesource.com/files/apidictor.pdf

but these days, it would be faster to implement this in software.

over on bee-l, jerry bromenshenk has been talking about a project to diagnose various diseases, as well as racial makeup (look for the AHB app for your iphone) by analyzing the sound inside the hive.

i expect that if one wants to understand what the bees are saying, one would have to listen to the smells in the hive.

hey michael, are you in bolivia?

deknow


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

deknow said:


> hey michael, are you in bolivia?
> 
> deknow


Bolivia in the springtime...gosh, I wish. Nope...just here in Vermont with our first little bit of snow of the season. 

Imagine...Texas and Louisiana get snow before Vermont. What is this world coming to...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Well Mark, I asked Dewey....
> 
> NO do not know a reference. I think I heard that they Drum and sing - the drumming is what probably does the movement of the bees - not thier "singing". Bees have NO receptors to "hear" airborne sounds. The waggling dance has sound but they pick it up as vibrations via feet. Beekeepers used to bang on pots etc to get a swarm to land -claiming their clanging noises caused bees to settle - which swarms do (settle) after relatively short flights so if you were an ancient beekeeper following a swarm and you kept banging on your pot the bees would settle and of course you would claim credit for it.
> 
> ...


So maybe the singing is good for the beekeeper. It keeps him calm and focused, perhaps.
How is Dewey? Enjoying retirement?
Hope you have a good holiday season too. I'm looking forward to seeing Charles in about 6 days.


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## gconran (Nov 8, 2009)

I wonder if the vibrations of a 'happy / healthy' hive could be duplicated to help reduce the need for smoking? Some type of device to put on the hive when you're ready to do inspections tell the girls that 'all's well', 'just hang loose' until I'm done.

I haven't been able to find references to folks trying that anywhere.


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## bigevilgrape (Aug 21, 2008)

JoshJames said:


> It is very possible that frequencies could be used to kill mites, or disrupt their behavior in such a way that renders them incapable of reproducing, surviving, etc. Take the link below for an example.
> 
> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/09/070913-burning-water.html
> 
> It would take a while to narrow down which frequencies affect mites because of the almost (or maybe it is) limitless amounts of frequencies that can be created. But it sure would be worth a try. The military uses frequency generators of some sort for mass crowd control. It supposedly can make you feel sick and for some, lose control of their bladder. Just where does one pick up a frequency maker? I have no clue....that is waaaaay beyond my puny brain. C'mon smart people, do it for me! LOL


Between any two numbers there exists at least one rational number and one irrational number. (I could supply a proof if you really want  ) Later rinse repeat and you have yourself an infinate number of frequencies. Now given the confines of humman engenering there are probably a lot fewer freqencies that we could actually recreate.

Edit: actually frequencies probably have to be whole numbers so there goes my brillant use of Real Analysis proofs. However you can still keep adding one to get to the next highest frequency. I'm sure if you go high enough you'll start having human heads explode.


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## Stanley Sloan (Apr 9, 2017)

I have a plasma field generator, call a Rife Machine, it creates a plasma field that generates a frequency of your choose. I have read that 1100.57 and 1112.71 Hz kills the mites. I can not this them until may bees come after the 4/15. I have built a rife machine in a bee box and made it on a 12 volt system. Many systems work on sound waves alone, but my system works on a 30,000 volt DC and the sound is broadcasted through a plasma field light of neon and argone. I will get back after I try it, one way or another.


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