# Queen introduction next friday: a question



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Today I did 10 queenless nucs to introduce 10 mated queens in a cage with candy. The queens are expected to arrive next Thursday. If I introduce the queens in the next friday, nucs were 7 days queenless. All possible emergency cells are initiated. On Friday I will destroy all these queen cells. It seems to me that increase the probability of accepting the queen bees because they no longer have larvae with less than 3 days. My question is: on Friday shortly after destroying the emergency cells can I introduce the queens in the cage or should I wait a while and how much?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

you are a bit early. 24 hours without a queen is more than enough. you will have to look for unwanted queen cells. get the new queens in as soon as you can.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Thank you for your response. Queens only come to my hands on January 15. I will introduce the queens 7 days after the nucs have been quenless and destroy all the queen cells on the seventh day (16 Jan), so I can introduce the queen immediately following the destruction of all emergency cells. Am I thinking correctly?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I would introduce them immediately. I would go through them all and destroy all queen cells, then immediately go back and intro the queens in cages. That should give plenty of time between pinching cells and introducing queens to make the nucs anxious in their hopelessly queenless situation. I would then go back 5 days later to insure all queens had been released and accepted.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Eduardo,

Yes, you are thinking correctly. And, like you say, you are limited by the time/availability of the queens getting to you until Jan 15. 

Personally, I would do just as you described...E cells out of the way, queen less bees, new laying queen offered in a cage... I would say pretty good odds of acceptance. Done it many times, just as you describe.
Might want to also observe the immediate reaction of your queen less bees towards the caged queen. And then just allow the bees to candy release the new queen.

As in, are they biting at the cage or are they nice and calm, yet very interested in the new queen. Michael Palmer has a short video clip demonstrating the behavior I am talking about.

Good luck!


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Thank you both Ray and Apis maximus. It is the second time I am introducing queens in cages and so I am safer that I'm not forgetting any of those little details that make big differences.
Yes I have seen the video of Mr. Palmer that is highly instructive. As we all say a good picture is worth a thousand words.:thumbsup:


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I make 400+ nucs in June/July. I've never waited more than 24 hours to give them the caged queens. More often, I make up the nucs during the day, take them to their summer yards, and give them a caged queen...only a few hours after making them up. I would never wait 7 days to give them their new queens. I don't want to have to cut out emergency cells and I want the queens laying as soon as possible after makeup. 10-12 days after giving the queens, the new queens are out and laying lots of new brood, and the nuc has to be expanded. Waiting 7 days, cutting cells, and waiting another day...then a couple more for the queen to escape the cage...that's 8 days already before the queen has an opportunity to lay. Too long in my opinion. I would never make up my nucs until I had the queens in hand. 

Same when I re-queen colonies. I remove the old queen and install a new queen beneath a push-in cage. No waiting.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm thinking that waiting that long one would find laying workers at work, wouldn't one? That's what I would expect.

I have made quick splits in the past where I took double deep hives, equalized brood and bees as best I could between the two boxes, didn't bother looking for the queen unless I accidentally saw her, and then put one box on another pallet, leaving the other box on the original stand. Then a cpl days later I came back and checked for queen cells, figuring the ones with the cells didn't have queens. At that time I gave the queen cell half a caged queen. It worked pretty well. But I didn't wait 7 or 8 days.

Why did you make queenless nucs that early? You could have waited until your queens came. It doesn't hurt to bank them 4 or 5 days or even more.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I'm with MP. Maybe I am missing something here but I don't know what advantages are gained by leaving bees queenless for such a long time. If you can work an approximate 5 day checkback into your schedule, then make yourself some fairly roomy push in intro. cages and put your queens in immediately on a patch of mature sealed brood. It will almost guarantee a successful introduction.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Thank you for your observations!
The queens are not in my hands. It is envisaged arrived next thursday (15th).
I decided to make the new nucs yesterday (10th) basically for 3 reasons:
- Take advantage of good weather yesterday (17 ° C , dry and with little wind time ) to make the splits;
- Divide blindly, so I must give at least 3-4 or days to know the box that has queen and what it does not have;
- Introducing the queens to 16 ( remember that only come into my hands 15 ) , give seven days and I can, in one operation, destroy all the existing emergency cells in orphans nucs, since after 7 days no longer will remain larvae with conditions to be future queens (if bees read the same books ), and immediately enter the caged queen. Acceptance of fertilized queens, who can walk in the order of 80 % or higher, can however be much lower , and be only of the order of 40 % . It seems to me that this discrepancy may be due to the failure to safeguard this situation, and if the bees still have opportunities to carry the queens of their "blood", may want to go out there and kill the queen of "strange blood ". When we eliminate the possibility of making queens of their blood, they eagerly accept the new mother, even if painted yellow ( it's no joke to ligusticas ) . I will report after the acceptance rate.

The reason for do it so early in the season has to do with the fact that I want to take the chance that my beekeepers association that I should buy these queens to 1/3 of the normal price (this purchase is framed in a state aid program to the purchase of queens). Or I get them or I risk losing the opportunity. On the other hand from February in this area the queens colonies have a strong development, reaching want to swarming.
Michael and Jim I don't know the conditions under which they have the queens. I hope they know that queens should not be many days in a bank. I hope that the harvesting of them from the nucs are on the 14th, for deliver on the 15th and I introducing them in 16. If things do not go well , I think I'm doing my part well done. I will then ask under what conditions they had queens before I hand them over. I do not know personally the breeders once the business is mediated by my beekeepers' association.
On the 16th, at the time of introduction, my idea is to strengthen these nucs with a good capped brood frame. My intention will bee strengthen the contingent of young bees and born after leave room for the new queen start laying.


Mark maybe I'm wrong, but not seem to run the risk of laying bees because there are brood to be born in the coming days. I work in the same way that you, to not have to find queens . But only when the minimum temperatures are above 10 ° C . For now and here the minimum temperatures do not allow me to get comfortable with this option (current minimum temperaturas close to the 0 ° C and maximum temperatures of 15 ° C). 

If you see something wrong in my reasoning, do not be sorry for me. I am already grown to endure the blow. I am here to learn from you. Thank you for your welcome help.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Here is a suggestion Eduardo. If you need to make them up that long before queens are available I would suggest splitting your brood among the boxes and leaving them stacked on the hive with an excluder between each box to eliminate the problem of e cells. When your queens arrive, make a daytime inspection and relocate your queen to the bottom box and ideally make sure each split has some open brood. At sunset or early the next morning carry your splits into a new location and intro your new queens at that time.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Obrigado Eduardo, é gentil de sua parte superior que o diga. (Thank you Eduardo, it is nice of you top say so.)


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Obrigado Eduardo, é gentil de sua parte superior que o diga.


Mark as you see is simple to write in portuguese. Thank you for the nice surprise. :thumbsup:.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Google Translate is wonderful. I don't know how accurate it is, but it is easy.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

so, what are your plans if the queens are delayed. What if they arrive dead and it will be a few weeks before you can get replacements? Just going to re-combine?


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Yes Mark the portuguese is five stars. Much I wish my english had the same accuracy .

Harley you remembers well. I hope for the best but be I must be prepared for the worst. If the queens have not reached, I have near 130 hives rear to help cope with brood and bees these 10 nucs. I don't intend recombine them. Within a month, and if everything goes badly, I'll be able to let these nucs raise there own queens and be fertilized by drones now are being born. 
My association of beekeepers never left me hanging so far, I think it still will not be now.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> My association of beekeepers never left me hanging so far, I think it still will not be now.



I hope your luck is better than mine. We have a saying here that goes "The only thing that is certain in life is death and taxes" so I always have a plan B because it seems anytime I count on anything.... especially something time sensitive it usually falls through.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Yes Mark the portuguese is five stars. Much I wish my english had the same accuracy.


You mean English isn't your primary language?


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

>I hope your luck is better than mine.> Thank you Harley. I then I will be happy to tell you how things are going.
>"The only thing that is certain in life is death and taxes" > A great truth that applies here as well. Taxes here increased greatly in the last 5 years because of our financial crisis.
>especially something time sensitive it usually falls through.> Oh yes, the time factor is greatly despised. 

Mark , maybe you do not believe but lately I've written and read more in english than in portuguese. I'm doing a intensive english training. Beekeeping literature in portuguese language is a little sparse, and english it is essential to get the information you offer me on the BS and in articles published mostly in english. On the other hand I am also muscle my memory and all that goes with it, because the training of a foreign language is a very stimulating and motivating cognitive exercise, especially when learning is done in interaction, as happens to me in the BS . I as well as learn more about beekeeping I'm also having valuable english lessons.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

You have my admiration Eduardo and also anyone else posting here for whom English isn't their native language. We Americans are famous for assuming everyone else should be able to speak "mercan" and making no attempt to reciprocate. I know some rudimentary Spanish and Italian. I promised some German speaking friends that I would learn some basic German this winter.....Ich muss an die Arbeit


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In my experience, my minimum for introducing a queen after dequeening, is 2 hours. My optimum is overnight (dequeen in the afternoon and introduce the next morning). My maximum if I have any say so is 24 hours. (sometimes they were already queenless longer...)


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> ...If you can work an approximate 5 day checkback into your schedule, then make yourself some fairly roomy push in intro. cages and put your queens in immediately on a patch of mature sealed brood. It will almost guarantee a successful introduction.


I like the sounds of that level of certainty, Jim. One question: Why contain the queen on sealed brood?

Thanks,

Adam


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I like the sounds of that level of certainty, Jim. One question: Why contain the queen on sealed brood?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Adam


The newly emerged bees will readily accept the queen.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

While we're on the subject if you're installing the queens into the nucs in cages, do you remove the attendants first?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> The newly emerged bees will readily accept the queen.


And the queen will be brought into lay before she is directly exposed to the colony. Laying queens are easier to introduce than non-laying queens.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Riskybizz said:


> ... do you remove the attendants first?


I do, but I'm an Outey.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

I suppose it never hurts. Our practice last year was to intentionally make up our 5 frame nucs on the weaker side and then go back after the new queen is accepted and laying and beef them up with more bees and brood. Isn't that much extra work for us as we have to check them anyways.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Riskybizz said:


> While we're on the subject if you're installing the queens into the nucs in cages, do you remove the attendants first?


If I bought the queen and it came with the attendants...I don't remove the attendants.

If I "made" the queen, and I want to do a cage introduction to a nuc, then, I do not add any attendants in the queen's cage.

Personally, I did not notice any difference in the acceptance rate, going one way or another.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

apis maximus said:


> If I bought the queen and it came with the attendants...I don't remove the attendants.


Last year I introduced 20 mated queens (my first and only experience) and I didn't remove the attendants because the breeder tell me to do that way. The rate of success was 90% (loose 2 queens).


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

I want to share my satisfaction with all, especially with those who actively intervened in this thread . Today I confirmed the acceptance rate of 10 virgin queens that I introduced in jail, with their attendants, in the past day 16th. All 10 queens had started laying eggs. One had first day larvae bathed in royal jelly.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Good to hear that Eduardo. Keep up the good work!


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