# from top bar to horizontal hive



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hello Thomas - one problem you may encounter if trying to convert existing Top Bars into frames is the problem of wax on the woodwork which effectively prevents you from using glue.

My suggestion would be to make life easy for yourself by chequer-boarding (IOIOIO) your existing Top Bars in-between the new frames, and then over time, gradually move the Top Bars towards the rear of the box, until such time as they are cleared - at which point you can then pull them out.

My only experience with something vaguely similar to what you're doing was to transfer Top Bars from Warre-style hives into British National frames. Warre Top Bars have a shorter length than the frame internal space, and so I was able to simply cable-tie the Top Bars and their combs underneath the Frame top-bars - which then enabled a very straight-forward transfer. 

My opinions re: horizontal framed hives are very positive, especially if you make the frames themselves reasonably deep. 

LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Yunzow said:


> .... Currently *my top bars have a 15" length*. I'd like to maintain that length of bar in the horizontal hive, .....
> 
> Heart,
> Thomas


This is a perfect TB size.
Just do what I do - intermix frames and free comb and don't worry too much.
Like LJ says, you will want to gradually push the free combs out over time.
This is my goal as well.

I have exact 15" top bars. 
The frames are preferable, but no required by any means.
With your current combs, I could drop them directly into my hives - no changes.

Here is an example of free comb just hanging off a top bar. 
A beauty. Too bad - from a mite dead out. 
I ended up with many of these coming directly from swarm traps.


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Thank you for the suggestion and feedback!


little_john said:


> Hello Thomas - one problem you may encounter if trying to convert existing Top Bars into frames is the problem of wax on the woodwork which effectively prevents you from using glue.
> 
> My suggestion would be to make life easy for yourself by chequer-boarding (IOIOIO) your existing Top Bars in-between the new frames, and then over time, gradually move the Top Bars towards the rear of the box, until such time as they are cleared - at which point you can then pull them out.
> 
> ...


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

thanks for the suggestion!

I'm trying to understand what is going on in that picture with the wood structure. The two vertical wood pieces, is the distance between them 15"? Also, what about the white bar at the very top? I assume the two holes drilled into that are bee passages?

Based on what you and LJ are saying, I'm going to have the distance between the two verticals of the frame be 15" and have one inch sticking out past the verticals of the frame. This would leave 1/4" bee space between the outside of the verticals and the hive body. 

I was going to leave at least an inch of space between the bottom of the frame and the hive body, so the hive might be 20" or 22" depending on what size boards I have handy.

To adapt my existing 15" bars to the larger hive body, I'm going to screw one inch pieces of wood onto the ends of the 15" bar to make it 17".



GregV said:


> This is a perfect TB size.
> Just do what I do - intermix frames and free comb and don't worry too much.
> Like LJ says, you will want to gradually push the free combs out over time.
> This is my goal as well.
> ...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Yunzow said:


> thanks for the suggestion!
> 
> I'm trying to understand what is going on in that picture with the wood structure. The two vertical wood pieces, is the distance between them 15"? Also, what about the white bar at the very top? I assume the two holes drilled into that are bee passages?
> ....................
> To adapt my existing 15" bars to the larger hive body, I'm going to screw one inch pieces of wood onto the ends of the 15" bar to make it 17".


So if you have been following me - my standard is two Lang medium frames strapped together (many pics).
With that I decided that the my standard top bar will be 15 inches.
That simple and works for me.
This also keeps me compatible to Lang equipment.

15" is the length of the final top bar (the longest white bar - piece of plywood screwed in on the top).
This particular comb came from a narrow trap (hex hive) and went through a conversion.
The vertical "end bars" are about 9" apart (same as Lang deep frame - again, compatible).
The entire conversion was to screw in my "standard" 15" top bar into a shorter trap top bar.
Done directly in place. Very simple and quick.
When done, pick up the comb and drop into a standard hive.

Two holes drilled - bee passages. 
They use them (for sure, they don't glue them shut as if "unused").
I can see value in such passages during cold season, but it takes yet extra work for me.
Maybe no need for these as I see that in foundation-less nest bees have been doing plenty of passages as they see fit.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Yunzow said:


> To adapt my existing 15" bars to the larger hive body, I'm going to screw one inch pieces of wood onto the ends of the 15" bar to make it 17".


Do take into account the weight of those combs (especially as you're talking about making your frames fairly deep) which will create considerable stresses in that area. A much better idea (imo) would be to attach a separate Top Bar on top of the existing one with screws, thusly:









Personally, I'd still install by chequer-boarding, and fit new purpose-made foundationless frames. If making foundationless frames from scratch - check out: http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/firewood06.htm which might give you an idea or two.
'best
LJ


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Great thanks for the tip! Yes I definitely am going to try the checkerboard.

I was going through all these different possibilities in my head over the weekend, and I had a perhaps irrational fear of screwing it together as you described. Or another irrational fear about the different top bars being staggered and not on the same level. 

But yes, that would be the easiest!

for stability the top top bar at least 3/8 to 1/2 inch thick??



little_john said:


> Do take into account the weight of those combs (especially as you're talking about making your frames fairly deep) which will create considerable stresses in that area. A much better idea (imo) would be to attach a separate Top Bar on top of the existing one with screws, thusly:
> 
> View attachment 40377
> 
> ...


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Yunzow said:


> for stability the top top bar at least 3/8 to 1/2 inch thick??


Spot on ! I make all my home-made frames from 10mm thick battens, so yes - a top top-bar between 3/8" (9.5 mm) and 1/2" (12.5 mm) would be fine.
(Even my 17" deep combs have a top top-bar 10 mm thick, with a second top-bar 10 mm thick glued underneath (between the side-bars) - which combination has been tested to withstand 56 lbs deadweight)

If you're uncomfortable about using screws, then why not use some cable-ties instead (or, in addition to screws ...) ?
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

UNLESS you ever think of supering over the bars (a long shot and even then who cares) - why even worry of different thickness of the bars?

I do try for 1/2" thick bars, but I have all kinds of thickness that bounce about 1/2" up and down.
Width of the bars are functionally important - yes. 
But gosh, I don't give much hoot about thickness of the bars.
As long as it is "thick enough" - it works.
That exactly the beauty of a single-level horizontal management - you get away with a LOT of things. 
Just don't matter.

Screws work great. I try four 1 1/4" (or longer) screws per a bar. Screws are cheap.
Hold double-frames of honey - not a problem.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Yunzow said:


> thanks for the suggestion!
> ........ I'm going to screw one inch pieces of wood onto the ends of the 15" bar to make it 17".


I do not think 17" is a good sizing.
You have to keep it to 15" or do the 19" (to match Lang frames long-side).
17" is neither here no there.
Pretty sure, you will regret eventually when dealing with Lang equipment compatibility (sooner or later will).


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Thanks for the tip Greg.

I'm not sure if I'll ever come around to Lang, but who knows.....



GregV said:


> I do not think 17" is a good sizing.
> You have to keep it to 15" or do the 19" (to match Lang frames long-side).
> 17" is neither here no there.
> Pretty sure, you will regret eventually when dealing with Lang equipment compatibility (sooner or later will).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Yunzow said:


> Thanks for the tip Greg.
> 
> I'm not sure if I'll ever come around to Lang, but who knows.....


You will not; not likely. 
But likely will get some Lang frames one day (with or without bees).
I am not doing Langs myself.
But a great bonus to be able to use them.

What Lazutin himself did with his hives - he took Dadant frames and modified them.


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## jennSAL (Jan 6, 2014)

I switched to horizontal (I call it a U shaped vs W shaped hive) since I get Langstroth nucs when I do and it was hellish to put the Langstroth frames of the nuc lengthwise, as I did to fit the W hive, and get Her Majesty to move over to the top bars. As I've gotten a few nucs I also have several Langstroth frames and see no need to waste them. I know there are concerns about strength of comb on 19" topbars- especially if allowed to be rectangular rather than trapezoidal by the striaght sides of the horizontal (U or l_l shaped) vs the conventional (ha ha) topbar (W or \_/ shaped). However here in SE AL zone 8, heat zone 9 like most of GA, I have only had some bending of comb if I foolishly hold it out of its normal plane for too long inspecting, which corrects with minimal trouble by hanging it back correctly, and never any fall off of comb. 

My high temps here are below 100 most of the time but over 80 most of 6 months, and my hives edge a forest, but I figure if the bees don't keep the hive cool enough even in the heat of an Alabama day they are goners already.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> UNLESS you ever think of supering over the bars (a long shot and even then who cares) - why even worry of different thickness of the bars?
> 
> I do try for 1/2" thick bars, but I have all kinds of thickness that bounce about 1/2" up and down.
> Width of the bars are functionally important - yes.
> ...


So, I was prepping my long hive to be moved over the long weekend (and moved it too).
The prep amounted to taping the top bars together as a precaution (better safe than sorry).

While at it, took a pic to show what I get away with - all kinds of top bars; don't matter much.
I highly doubt I will ever super this rig up (could, but won't).
Just so much easier to stay a single-level horizontal.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

One warning about foundationless frames, and moving bars around the length of the top bar hive - the bees sometimes make worker comb and sometimes make drone/honey comb. If u want to catch drone comb and destroy it after it's capped for mite control, it is a lot easier if your foundationless frames are either all drone/honey or all worker. I'm having better luck getting all worker comb drawn out by using foundation. To make it more attractive to the bees, I rub a chunk of beeswax on the worker foundation to provide the bees with bits of wax to start drawing out the foundation. Before you commit to a size with the horizontal hive, really consider how useful being able to install a Nuc would be, or to give someone with a lang a frame, or to be able to put a ready-made lang frame into your hive... I have lang-compatible to bar hives and no problems with fallen comb (when the hive is closed and I'm not touching it!) or winter survival (as long as mite population not too high).


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

GregV said:


> I do not think 17" is a good sizing.
> You have to keep it to 15" or do the 19" (to match Lang frames long-side).
> 17" is neither here no there.
> Pretty sure, you will regret eventually when dealing with Lang equipment compatibility (sooner or later will).


I'm with GregV on this. If you are going to do a horizontal hive you should probably go with a standard size so when you get in a bind, and it will happen, you can order frames. The transfer will be easy since you can attach the existing bars to longer bars for the first "frames". Plus you may end up needing to split a hive, and if you don't want it you can put it in a 5 frame nuc and sell it for a bunch. 

Otherwise I don't see the advantage of going with a 15 in long hive. You cant go back and forth to the TBH.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

shannonswyatt said:


> ......
> Otherwise I don't see the advantage of going with a 15 in long hive. You cant go back and forth to the TBH.


The 15 inch TB makes sense IF you do things the GregV's way - tied together medium frames so to make the horizontal hives deep.
Then it becomes the 15 inch deep system.

But 19 inch also can be deep system. 
You can do double-deep deep frame along 19 inch TB.
You can do double-deep or triple-deep medium frame along 19 inch TB.
You can turn them cold ways or warm way or both ways.

But anyhow, both 15 and 19 inch TBs provide for ways to stay compatible with Lang beekeeping world out there.
Don't try to fight the Lang world - it will hurt as you will be fighting problems you created for yourself.
Instead, leverage the Lang frame dimensions, and still do the beekeeping your own way, and still achieve your own goals (the Aikido martial art approach).

Sometimes I just shake my head as I observe TBH keepers fighting all kinds of artificial problems of their own making - all due to ignoring the basic compatibility ideas to move combs across different hive systems. Does not have to be this way.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

GregV said:


> Sometimes I just shake my head as I observe TBH keepers fighting all kinds of artificial problems of their own making - all due to ignoring the basic compatibility ideas to move combs across different hive systems. Does not have to be this way.


I'm with you as someone that used to swim against the current. I still have around 10 TBHs, but things are a lot easier with the Langs. I'm very thankful that I started with bars that can be dropped in a lang.


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