# Does this look like a Buckfast queen?



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I know, you can't tell by the color. Folks with experience can give their best guess.

(Please excuse the bad paint job

She's a 2012 model-this is a photo from today. Overwintered in Western Wa so those are also her offspring. The apiary I got her from ended up being questionable. I would like to know what to call her.











Thanks for your help.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

What is a Buckfast queen? I'm not being ignorant, nor am I joking. Buckfast queens were a population bred by Brother Adam. Brother Adam has been gone for some time, and the bees that are sold as "Buckfast" have no relation to the bees he was breeding.

The best analogy I can come up with is something like "Pyrex".....Pyrex kitchen products used to be made of the same material as their lab ware...now, you can buy "Pyrex" kitchen ware (from Corning) that is made of soda-lime...not the borosillicate glass that people expect "Pyrex" to be. Pyrex isn't Pyrex anymore.
I'm baffled by what people think they are getting when they buy "Buckfast" branded queens.

deknow


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

"Folks with experience can give their best guess."

I know it's not Brother Adams true strain-
I know it's not a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle-

I assume breeders are raising queens that have the correct lineage and exhibit the traits that strains are known for. 

It would be nice if labs like UC Davis had some DNA testing for bees like they do for horses, dogs, etc. .


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Call her Susan . It's REALLY hard and (except to a few hard-cores) not very reliable to characterize a queen for sure just by looking. Sure you could opine that this one's dark abdomen seems Carni, and that one's seems leather Italian, but who's to really know?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I think that supplier may have used a set of dice marked like retirement dice, but he probably bought a lot of the queens he distributed as his own. 

THere are people breeding bees of lineages going back to Brother Adams bees. If they want to describe them with the buckfast name, that is logical and proper. But your reservations are well founded and it just doesn't matter~! If she is a good long lived queen raise some queens from her.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Back in the 70s the Buckfasts typically looked like the leather colored Italians. In other words, less "yellow" than the typical commercial Italians. But since he wasn't breeding for color, I'm sure they varied. I'm also sure they have changed over time. I had them from the 70's to 2001 and they were not the same in 2001...


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## Deepsouth (Feb 21, 2012)

I have some Buckfast queens from R weaver and they are much Darker. Not sure if they are true buckfast or not but i dont really care. I bought them last year just to try them out and they are doing very well. They are gentle, laying full frames brood and building up very quickly. That's all that matters to me.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't know if mine are Italian or Carni. Maybe they are a mutt. If yours are the buckfast then mine
pretty much look like that as well. Cannot tell by their color alone. Youtube bee channel said there is no more pure bred bees anymore. They are all mutt now more or less. Who can truly say they have the pure bee genetics now.


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## ralph3 (Jun 3, 2012)

I installed five 'italian' packages from south georgia somewhere, yesterday and I know at least one queen was tiger striped like that.

It should be pretty safe to say that everything in the US is a mutt of some sort.

While black bees fascinate me, the brown queens and golden workers seem to be more domesticated.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Yup, performance is worth more than a name. After overwintering about 60 hives successfully this year I have to say, the daughters of the Glenn inseminated Carniolan queen I bought in 2011 are the shining stars in my yard. Daughters from a swarm I collected in 2011 also are performing very well. BeeWeavers single daughter queen looks fabulous, but I will see how hot this second generation is before grafting too many of them. I ordered 5 more Beeweaver queens to be delivered late April though. I did like them and they really get to work.

The different strains, what ever they may be, really have different traits. It is obvious when you can see the hive conditions side by side when they have all had the same management.
I also have some comments about overwintering prep and management, but will make that another thread at another time. Those I did lose I know exactly why and will share that insight with you. (It was not mites)

This next month I will be evaluating which queens I will be grafting from this year. When you tended them last summer and they are overwintered, you have a great feel for performance and positive traits. When I open some hives I just think "whoa!" Those are already on my list


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Good job, Laurie. Glad you get things done early this Spring.
Welcome back! Cannot wait to get my queen moving, I mean mated.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks Beepro. I haven't gone anywhere, just too busy to read much or post. If you are interested, click on my Agricultural facebook page and see what I've been working on.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510


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## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

Could be a Sunkist or Moonbeam... Sorry I couldn't resist.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Looks like a queen with a yellow dot.:lookout:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Nope, looks like a Carni. Those I have 4 so far. Big fat and juicy virgin ones.
No red dots yet. I also have the Sunkist or yellow type bees. Sorry!


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Lauri said:


> ...the daughters of the Glenn inseminated Carniolan queen ...


 Wow, I guess I missed something... may be mature "boys" also involved?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, youtube has videos on those mature boys artificially way.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

beepro said:


> Nope, looks like a Carni. Those I have 4 so far. Big fat and juicy virgin ones.
> No red dots yet. I also have the Sunkist or yellow type bees. Sorry!


Most carnis that I've seen are much darker than these.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yup, that is why I think these are the mutts. Not sure after
a few generation if they are still pure anymore.


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## dansk (Aug 8, 2012)

Lauri,

The queen in the picture has markings that are consistant with the Buckfast line.

Visit Us:


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. That queen is gone...so no matter now


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Vance G said:


> THere are people breeding bees of lineages going back to Brother Adams bees.


http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/

Some other old Buckfast lines.http://www.buckfast.biz/

http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_CD_2010.html


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

Lauri said:


> Yup, performance is worth more than a name. After overwintering about 60 hives successfully this year I have to say, the daughters of the Glenn inseminated Carniolan queen I bought in 2011 are the shining stars in my yard. Daughters from a swarm I collected in 2011 also are performing very well. BeeWeavers single daughter queen looks fabulous, but I will see how hot this second generation is before grafting too many of them. I ordered 5 more Beeweaver queens to be delivered late April though. I did like them and they really get to work.
> 
> The different strains, what ever they may be, really have different traits. It is obvious when you can see the hive conditions side by side when they have all had the same management.
> I also have some comments about overwintering prep and management, but will make that another thread at another time. Those I did lose I know exactly why and will share that insight with you. (It was not mites)
> ...


Lauri, 

So how were the daughters of the Buckfast Beeweaver queen? Were they hot? Do you recommend using the Buckfast Beeweaver queen for a breeder queen?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

RichardsonTX said:


> Lauri,
> 
> So how were the daughters of the Buckfast Beeweaver queen? Were they hot? Do you recommend using the Buckfast Beeweaver queen for a breeder queen?


I had no daughters, only the five I ordered for that spring.

You can't judge a line just from a couple queens, but they were _wayyyy_ too hot for my taste.


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## BjornH (Nov 8, 2013)

Since this poped up. Buckfast queens today are queens bred fro Rev Adams linage, keeping a controled mating and pedigree. Buckfast are more a method to have good, healthy, honey production bees than specifik " look like this". Usually like a brown italian, sometimes darker, sometimes lighter but colour is not a production criteria... Temper is. The only specisl with Adam was that he spend time to mix in good thing from different races more than working within one specifik race. Today some Swedish Buckfast breeders starts to integrate VSH from both imported US-stock and in the same time do selection in the breeder queens we have. But keeping the production high and varroa low...It will take a while.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I'd rear queens from RWeaver Buckfast in a heartbeat - especially since you are right there in Texas already. Many of them - RWeaver Buckfast - are (have been) quite gentle. There have always been a few "mavericks".

I spoke with Richard last fall. They had made a concerted effort to deal with a small number of "aggressive" complaints in 2014. One was mine. After refreshing the line, & re-visiting drone saturation, they had few if any verifiable complaints in 2015. 

Rearing ANY queens in AHB country, like Texas, is going to be a gamble - just be prepared to deal with it.


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