# Help, wiring an electric fence



## NoodleSalad (May 14, 2016)

12'x20' area
4 corner posts
insulators at 6",16,26,36,46 (five wire)
Do I need any of my wires to be grounds or should I do 5 hot
I bought 2- 4 foot grounding rods
MN soil moist by woods
Pretty sure I'm going to buy a Parmark Mag 12, 15w solar panel and either a car batt or deep cycle.
Do I need 2 grounding rods?
Where shall I put them
If I go 5 hot, can i use one wire wrapper around or charge 5 individual?
Thanks


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

On the system I got (zareba ac not solar). The unit has a red (hot) and green (ground) terminal. All wires on the fence were hot. I ran a lead from the red terminal to the top strand of the fence and down to the last strand. They sell connectors at tractor supply to connect all the hots.








I suggest using three 6 foot ground rods.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

And is there a distance away from the energizer that the ground rods should be installed? If we're talking about a 12'x20' area, would that still require 2-3 rods, or would one be considered sufficient, especially in moist soil?
I recently had to install a fence and was only able to pound my ground rods in 3 feet. My energizer is 6 joules and rated for 100 miles, with an area of about 10x10', so I figured I wouldn't need all that grounding. Is that logic false?


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

I'm sorry, I forgot to address ground rod placement. Install the first one near the fence controller then 10 feet between each rod. They sell the ground clamps at tractor supply as well.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

I would play it safe and go with 3. If you go along the 20 foot section, it works out well. 1 at each corner post and 1 dead center. I got lucky and got 2 rods in 5 feet and cut a foot off. The 3rd rod was such a rocky spot that I made a 6 foot long trench 1 foot down and laid it horizontally (that is acceptable if absolutly necessary.)


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Drive one ground rod at the base of the post that you hang the solar charger on. I would suggest driving more than one rod and a 4 foot ground rod is not sufficient down here, not sure about up there. 

The Parmak 12 has an internal battery. No need for an additional battery. Once you unbox and install the charger you need to let it charge a couple days before you use it.


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## exmar (Apr 30, 2015)

IMHO, return the four foot rods and get at least six foot. Put one ground at controller location and the other directly opposite it e.g. Controller in a corner with ground rod, other rod in opposite corner. 6" for the first wire? You're going to be busy cutting off weeds as it only takes one to "ground" out the system. 

It's spring and yes, the ground is moist, will it be moist later in the summer or going into late fall? That's the reason you want grounds as deep as you can get them. If you're trying to drive a ground into a ledge or boulder and can't do it, the NEC does allow burying a FULL LENGTH ground rod horizontally, as deep as you can get it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Brad Bee said:


> The Parmak 12 has an internal battery. No need for an additional battery.


Well .... the Parmak Magnum Solar-Pak 12 has an internal battery to go along with its solar panel: http://www.parmakusa.com/product_details.php?PId=4


However, the Parmak Magnum 12UO has _no_ internal battery, and no integral solar panel:
http://www.parmakusa.com/product_details.php?PId=2
It is 12 volt operated and can be run for some time just on a deep cycle battery, which would be external to the charger. In some applications users just periodically swap batteries and don't use a solar panel. Or it can be used with a battery and a standalone solar panel.

[hr] [/hr]
If one is using steel posts for the fence, get double duty from those fence posts and run a ground wire connecting all the fence posts together with the 'real' ground rod(s). Each grounded fence post improves the overall ground system.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

exmar said:


> IMHO, return the four foot rods and get at least six foot. Put one ground at controller location and the other directly opposite it e.g. Controller in a corner with ground rod, other rod in opposite corner. 6" for the first wire? You're going to be busy cutting off weeds as it only takes one to "ground" out the system.
> 
> It's spring and yes, the ground is moist, will it be moist later in the summer or going into late fall? That's the reason you want grounds as deep as you can get them. If you're trying to drive a ground into a ledge or boulder and can't do it, the NEC does allow burying a FULL LENGTH ground rod horizontally, as deep as you can get it.


If you can, running that ground wire is a great way to guarantee in dry conditions a trespasser will get ground/live connection in very dry conditions. And it is awesome with the low joule output on these fences to help make sure your fence isn't being drained by weeds. I love ParMark. 

And FYI, you can place your fence tester on your ground rod. If you don't have enough ground, the juice will feed out through the ground. I have an AC ParMark 50 miler and it requires a lot of grounding. Got a heck of a zap a few years ago not know what I was doing while setting it up.


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## exmar (Apr 30, 2015)

Rader, good point, forgot to mention it/thought it was understood about using the "fence posts" for grounding. 15W is only 1.25Amps on a very bright sunny day, a regular car battery will fail fairly quickly. A car battery is designed to supply a high current for a short time for starting and then recharges with a high current from the alternator. A deep cycle is more forgiving in the low discharge, low recharge scenario. Either way, When you're there, put some jumper cables on and top charge the battery from your vehicle, should prolong life by offsetting storage battery tendency to "sulfate" or bridge the plates. Best case scenario would be a cheap 120Volt controller if an outlet is available. won't do anything in a power outage, but most critters learn fast.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Exmar is correct. Better one 8' rod than 2 4 foot rods. You have to get down to permanent soil moisture. While I'm not a fence expert, I do have a degree in EE. 

I disagree with his charging recommendation tho. Better to put it on charge and fully charge it overnight prior to installation. You do need a deep cycle as he says, AGM is better than the old wet cell lead. 

Just remember you touch the wire, the electricity goes thru your body, down through your feet, thru the ground and returns to the ground rod. The actual power used by the system when nothing is touching the wire is minimal, need to keep weeds off of it. The lower 6" wire will require maintenance, better get the extended life roundup.


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## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

I live in the Ozarks where it can get quite dry. I have found that a ground wire in between the hot wires guarantees the effectiveness of the fence.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

exmar said:


> the NEC does allow burying a FULL LENGTH ground rod horizontally, as deep as you can get it.


Good point, but I don't recall an electric fence chapter in the NEC

Another way is to lay down a metal mesh around the perimeter and bond it to the ground. Standing on it when touching the wire will give the max shock available.

Oh, one last thing, insulate the battery from ground (soil) contact, it's not good for it. Elevate it on a block of wood or something.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

herbhome said:


> I live in the Ozarks where it can get quite dry. I have found that a ground wire in between the hot wires guarantees the effectiveness of the fence.


That would work just fine as long as they touch both a ground and supply at the same time.

I like (I think it was TenBears) that had the idea of laying wire mesh on the ground around it to act as the ground. He actually said concrete mesh, but I think he meant the reinforcement wire that goes inside a concrete slab.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Coach62 said:


> Good point, but I don't recall an electric fence chapter in the NEC
> 
> Nope but you will find grounding in the IEEE green book,
> I scanned the page about the number of ground rods multiplying factors and shapes but could not figure out a way to paste it in.
> ...


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

It was just a joke, I wasn't serious. You are correct to apply the NEC to this, even tho there's no mention of a fence in the NEC, the same grounding principals still apply.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

My information was accurate but it was also a joke that I was trying to put in a bunch of pages with equations and tables. the internet takes away my constant flow of sarcasm.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Bear fence: holding back bears for over 30 years. T-posts & yellow T-post insulators. No ground rods. All hot wires. The T-posts are the grounds. The 120V unit is grounded in the shop. We have at least 6 local bears. The boar must be pushing 600 lbs, by all accounts. The neighbors see them often - late at night - rummaging through some fools' trash that got left out overnight. There's an active den on the bluff behind the house. The bears apparently just hate my fence.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well .... the Parmak Magnum Solar-Pak 12 has an internal battery to go along with its solar panel: http://www.parmakusa.com/product_details.php?PId=4
> 
> 
> However, the Parmak Magnum 12UO has _no_ internal battery, and no integral solar panel:
> ...


Question for you as you seem to know a lot about the fences. The manual for my unit says to run a wire rated to 20,000 volts from the energizer out to the actual cables and the ground rod. How important is it to have this 20kv rated wire, and can I just plug my galvanized steel cable that I use for the fence directly into it? I ended up running 4 wires rated for 600volts each in parallel, but I'm wondering how crucial it is to have that 20kv rating.

Is there a risk of fire with these things by the way? We are installing them in some pretty wild, arid, wooded and unattended areas.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I believe that your manuals' reference is regarding the _insulation_ of whatever wire you use. The assumption is that one would use insulated wire to pass the charger current though areas where a bare wire is unsuitable. (for instance, charger in a building and needing to get the wire outside, etc).

Ordinary 'house' wire found at places like Lowes and Home Depot is rated at 600 volts, but that is a conservative rating. I don't have any insulated wire in my fence system (my charger is outdoors), but my neighbor has a cattle fence that employs ordinary 600 volt UF household wire (rated for direct burial) that he uses to bridge around field gates etc. Having accidentally touched his fence, I can attest that using the 600 volt rated wire does not seem to diminish the effectiveness of the fencing. 

Fence chargers are a relatively 'mature' technology, and are _not_ known for starting fires. But vegetation touching the live wires can ground out the fence and kill its effectiveness. A powerful charger _may_ be able to eliminate some weeds contacting the wire, but some kind of fence line vegetation management plan is a good idea. Dare I suggest application of glyphosate along the fence line?


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Hahaha I guess I understand. So the 20kv is insurance that no current would pass through that insulation, but since my unit is also outside, albeit in a large rubbermaid container to get it out of direct rain, I may be fine with running the fence wire directly?

If one were so silly as to leave any of the fence wire touching, say, wood. Would that cause a fire? Just wondering what I'm dealing with here.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

When wood gets wet, it can be a conductor, which would ground out the fence, so wooden fence supports generally need insulators. For instance ...








photo credit

For an inexpensive alternative, cut up some schedule 80 PVC pipe into short sections.


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## K Wieland (Sep 15, 2011)

We also had a bear wipe out one of our hives last year. One thing I would add is that once the bear knows where the honey is, he or she will be back! Once we set up our electric fence we baited it with peanut butter on aluminum foil. The smell of the peanut butter makes them want to smell it. If you've ever been shocked by a fence, you respect it. Imagine that on your nose!

The hole the next day in a nearby mesh fence, both coming and going, was slight consolation for the missing hive.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

OK, now I need to get into this too. I've heard tales of a bear around here but hadn't seen signs of it myself. But the wife got a pic of it the other day when it crossed the road in front of her, estimate about 5' when standing up on hind legs, maybe 250lbs, Black Bear.

So, she's freaked and getting on my case about a fence. I've been confident with the dog and guns, but...

So, I've started looking at fencing and chargers but there seems to be quite a varied selection of chargers and outputs, rated in joules. I'm used to working with volts, amps and watts, joules doesn't really tell me much. How much does one really need to put a zap on a Black Bear?

Considerations:

1) AC is out of the question, too far from line power so some sort of solar charging system will be necessary. (All-in-one unit or a separately rigged battery and charging system?)

2) Area- Several hundred feet long, 50-100 feet wide, but the fence will probably end up in an irregular layout instead of a simple rectangle.

3) Money is tight right now, I don't want to spend a lot, but I don't want to waste it either (by buying something that won't be effective enough). Like the guy on 'Tool Time', I always have the urge for "more power", so I need to get grounded in reality (pun intended).

Between brands, 'joules output' and 'miles' I'm just getting myself confused and frustrated. I know how to do the wiring and grounding, but figuring out what I need is shorting my brain.


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## exmar (Apr 30, 2015)

Asking a question here, prompted by Badbeekeepers post. I can see a small electric fence around an apiary or beeyard, but he seems to enclosing much more. We don't have bear problems here-yet, but wondered about something like a five strand barbed wire fence? Do bears climb over those? I know that as expensive as electric fence is, it's still cheaper than what I'm asking about, just wondered.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

ABK said:


> Hahaha I guess I understand. So the 20kv is insurance that no current would pass through that insulation, but since my unit is also outside, albeit in a large rubbermaid container to get it out of direct rain, I may be fine with running the fence wire directly?
> 
> If one were so silly as to leave any of the fence wire touching, say, wood. Would that cause a fire? Just wondering what I'm dealing with here.


I may be fine with running the fence wire directly? Yes - as long at you do it correctly and carefully. 

If one were so silly as to leave any of the fence wire touching, say, wood. Would that cause a fire? No.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> OK, now I need to get into this too. I've heard tales of a bear around here but hadn't seen signs of it myself. But the wife got a pic of it the other day when it crossed the road in front of her, estimate about 5' when standing up on hind legs, maybe 250lbs, Black Bear.
> 
> So, she's freaked and getting on my case about a fence. I've been confident with the dog and guns, but...
> 
> ...


It's not very easy to convert joules to watts and joules takes into account time, as watts do not. A joule is one watt-second, but I don't believe a fence pulse is near one second. To convert the joules to watts you would need to know the duration of the pulse. To me - my opinion - a joule is easier to compare to horsepower than a watt.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Coach62 said:


> It's not very easy to convert joules to watts and joules takes into account time, as watts do not. A joule is one watt-second, but I don't believe a fence pulse is near one second. To convert the joules to watts you would need to know the duration of the pulse. To me - my opinion - a joule is easier to compare to horsepower than a watt.


That's...interesting...but it doesn't get me any closer to knowing what I need.



exmar said:


> Asking a question here, prompted by Badbeekeepers post. *I can see a small electric fence around an apiary or beeyard, but he seems to enclosing much more.* We don't have bear problems here-yet, but wondered about something like a five strand barbed wire fence? Do bears climb over those? I know that as expensive as electric fence is, it's still cheaper than what I'm asking about, just wondered.


I'm also planting an apple orchard with other crops between the trees. The original idea was interspersing the hives throughout, no consideration was given to issues with bears, since, at the time I started I had never heard of any bears being in the area. Lately I've been keeping additions within the previously defined area instead of expanding it, but it would be somewhat of a hassle to consolidate everything into a smaller area, and probably not worth it since the wire is relatively cheap.

Bears can be creative and have been known to dig under fences as well as climbing over them, they are sometimes smarter than they look. I suspect one might just rip down a standard barbed-wire fence, the one around here [allegedly] just bent over some fairly hefty metal pipe to get the bird feeders mounted on top (don't know for sure just how durable the pipe was, going off a second-hand description).


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Bears can be creative and have been known to dig under fences as well as climbing over them, they are sometimes smarter than they look. I suspect one might just rip down a standard barbed-wire fence...


Creative? Shoot, I've read about them climbing trees to drop into an enclosure... and unhooking the spring loaded connectors (like I have) for the hot wire. 

'Agreed on the barb wire - they'd likely just climb over, dig under or shove on through. Likewise with any height of chain link that doesn't have a hot wire incorporated - a hot wire designed to drop them on the outside, of course... They climb 6' chain link fence like most of us climb stairs.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

'....That's...interesting...but it doesn't get me any closer to knowing what I need.'
from the Kengrove site (I use the poultry fence for chickens)
We found for every 1.5 joule rating of most our chargers the filament of a 100 watt light bulb will just barely glow in a dark room. We normally hook them in series, but in the 18 and 28 joule we use several strings of lights. Our 6 joule charger should dimly light 4 bulbs and the 12 joule unit 8 lights. A few years ago I planned to sell a charger the factory rated at 10+ joules. When tested, we felt it was far overrated. I feel the better a charger does in this test, it will do better at killing the green growth touching the fence.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> from the Kengrove site ...


That's _Kencove_.com  ... here is the Kencove page where that snippet originated:
http://www.kencove.com/fence/7_Volts+vs.+Joules_resource.php


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## Zombee (Mar 20, 2016)

I am just a backwoods hillbilly in Kentucky. Can't keep up with all you engineers no way. And we don't have bears in western Kentucky. But I do keep goats. An animal that is down right determined to get to the other side of a fence. The only way I have found to keep them in is an electric fence. 

I don't use any fancy ground rods. I use rebar. 3 or 4 four foot pieces hammered in until the top has only a couple inches sticking out. Then I just tight wrap the fence wire around each piece along the line and run it to the fencer. I have a few solar fencers. The paddock the goats are in now is maybe 100' by 350'. It is powered by a solar Zareba, 5 mile, 0.1 joules fencer. I run a ground wire 6 inches up. Then a hot at 10" another ground and another hot. EDIT.... The fencers are rated for miles of hot wire. Not miles of fence.

I don't have much problem with weeds grounding it out although I do try to keep them down. But let me tell you, even with a bunch of weeds touching the hot it will still open your eyes in the morning and charge your prostate for later in the day.

For goats it's about training. Don't really even need it on everyday now. I imagine once bears touch their noses to it they learn quick too.

My Border Collie will not go anywhere near a wire that looks like an electric fence.

If you do ground out your steel posts, you have to make sure that you are to bare metal on the post. Not the paint. And you need some paint scraped off the part of the post that is in the ground.

Rock


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

ABK said:


> And is there a distance away from the energizer that the ground rods should be installed? If we're talking about a 12'x20' area, would that still require 2-3 rods, or would one be considered sufficient, especially in moist soil?
> I recently had to install a fence and was only able to pound my ground rods in 3 feet. My energizer is 6 joules and rated for 100 miles, with an area of about 10x10', so I figured I wouldn't need all that grounding. Is that logic false?


That is not even logic. You need a ground that is effective when it has not rained for a month. Why not do the job right to start with rather than guess and take a chance? I used an eight foot copper clad ground with 7'9" in the ground plus metal T poles for the fence that are all tied together and tied to ground. We are talking about trying to stop a bear not a rabbit.


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## Zombee (Mar 20, 2016)

Richard Cryberg said:


> That is not even logic. You need a ground that is effective when it has not rained for a month. Why not do the job right to start with rather than guess and take a chance? I used an eight foot copper clad ground with 7'9" in the ground plus metal T poles for the fence that are all tied together and tied to ground. We are talking about trying to stop a bear not a rabbit.


The effect of touching an electric fence is psychological, not physical. With a mere 35+ years of experience with electric fence I have touched one more than 100 times. Never was I physically harmed. But I still avoid touching one.

Electric poultry netting will deter a rabbit. It will also deter a 500 lbs. pig or a 1500 lbs. cow. But the rabbit being smaller receives no more damage than does the cow.

Which makes me wonder if electric poultry netting would work for a bear fence?

But to say you need a better ground for a bigger animal is illogical. Either the ground works or it doesn't.

Rock


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The 'quality' of the ground system affects the shock that the target critter receives. If the path from the charger 'plus' terminal, though the charged fence wire, through the critter, and returning to the 'ground' terminal of the charger has a high resistance value, then more of the shock is effectively wasted by that undue resistance.

The effect is similar to putting two incandescent lightbulbs connected in _series_ - each bulb only gets _half_ the voltage that it would have received if the bulbs were connected in parallel (or there was just one bulb), and you end up with a _dim bulb_ or two. 

In an electric fence system, the target critter is in series with the rest of the fence system. Whatever voltage is used burning though a high resistance in the fence system - _including a poor ground_ - is not available to shock the critter.


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## Zombee (Mar 20, 2016)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The 'quality' of the ground system affects the shock that the target critter receives. If the path from the charger 'plus' terminal, though the charged fence wire, through the critter, and returning to the 'ground' terminal of the charger has a high resistance value, then more of the shock is effectively wasted by that undue resistance.
> 
> The effect is similar to putting two incandescent lightbulbs connected in _series_ - each bulb only gets _half_ the voltage that it would have received if the bulbs were connected in parallel (or there was just one bulb), and you end up with a _dim bulb_ or two.
> 
> In an electric fence system, the target critter is in series with the rest of the fence system. Whatever voltage is used burning though a high resistance in the fence system - _including a poor ground_ - is not available to shock the critter.


As I said, I am but a lowly hillbilly with nothing but my years of hands on experience to guide me. But, I think you and I just said the same thing. "Either a ground works or it doesn't."


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Richard Cryberg said:


> That is not even logic. You need a ground that is effective when it has not rained for a month. Why not do the job right to start with rather than guess and take a chance? I used an eight foot copper clad ground with 7'9" in the ground plus metal T poles for the fence that are all tied together and tied to ground. We are talking about trying to stop a bear not a rabbit.


Like I said in my previous post, I couldn't pound the ground rods deeper than 3 feet each.

If instead of 6 joules, I had lets say 60000000 joules running through that fence. Would a bear standing on that ground that only has one rod stuck 3 feet into the ground feel the same percentage of the total charge as he would from my 6 joules? My logic is that if people get away with using 0.1 joules for a bear and it works just as well (even if psychologically), then the most energy the bear can feel with that setup and proper ground would be 0.1 joules. If I have 6 joules and I'm grounded only "50%", wouldn't the bear still receive 3 joules of the charge?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> "Either a ground works or it doesn't." 

I did not intend to convey that. 


A relatively poor ground on a fence system might be suitable to deliver a shock to some critters, while at the same time not suitable for other critters. Yet if you improve the ground, even difficult target critters can get a suitable shock to deter them.

[hr] [/hr]
If you can't pound a typical ground rod in the ground vertically as far as the rod is long, then Plan B is to dig a trench and lay the ground rod in the trench horizontally. This alternative is even acceptable for house wiring under the National Electrical Code. A newer preferred method under the NEC in many jurisdictions is a 'concrete encased electrode' - essentially the ground wire is attached to the rebar in the footing before the concrete is poured. This gets the ground contact over a wide area, even though the footing may not be all that deep in the earth.

The same principle can be achieved with a fence by a horizontal ground rod, and connecting all the steel fence posts to the grounding system. A diversified ground can replace, and likely be better than, a traditional vertical grounding system. Using both would be ideal.

.


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## Zombee (Mar 20, 2016)

ABK said:


> Like I said in my previous post, I couldn't pound the ground rods deeper than 3 feet each.
> 
> If instead of 6 joules, I had lets say 60000000 joules running through that fence. Would a bear standing on that ground that only has one rod stuck 3 feet into the ground feel the same percentage of the total charge as he would from my 6 joules? My logic is that if people get away with using 0.1 joules for a bear and it works just as well (even if psychologically), then the most energy the bear can feel with that setup and proper ground would be 0.1 joules. If I have 6 joules and I'm grounded only "50%", wouldn't the bear still receive 3 joules of the charge?


Here may be the question...

Is not a joule relative to the flow of current (power) through the source and not an indicator as to how much shock (energy) a critter receives? In other words, it takes more joules to push a certain amount of energy through say 30 miles of fence (0.5 joules) Then it does to push that same certain amount of energy through 5 miles of fence (0.1 joules). So joules vs. ground vs. shock received is not really relative. If some EE wants to turn that into the nomenclature that you can all understand, be my guest. I have already expended all available joules from the brain and the moonshine is having it's affect. 

As to the depth of ground.... In regards to electric fence I have perhaps once used an 8' ground rod. Only because it happened to be already installed next to the barn where I had my fencer plugged in. But I don't really know how long it was. Other than that, we have made do with what we had or what was cheaper. Even in the "dry spells" our fencers have kept working. I am currently rotating goats through 5 different systems trying to eradicate poison ivy. It is a long arduous process. But my use of grounding rods do not meet up to the directions or the specifications of any manual or guide. And yet my fences have always worked and kept the critters in. Except when the fencer fails which is far to often with solar units.

Hoodoo boy, now my poor noggin is tired!!!


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## Zombee (Mar 20, 2016)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> >> "Either a ground works or it doesn't."
> 
> I did not intend to convey that.
> 
> ...


Right! Either a ground works or it doesn't. Halfway is "it doesn't. "


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Zombee said:


> Either the ground works or it doesn't.
> 
> Rock


With over 70 years of experience with electric fences and enough education to actually understand how an electric fence works electronically I submit that what you say is simply dead wrong. Further, a bear has a lot more hair that can electrically insulate it than a rabbit so you need more voltage before the bear feels a thing. A less than perfect ground will cut both voltage and joules.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

If you have a tractor with a loader, just skip the ground rod altogether. Dig a flat bottomed hole 5 feet wide and 18" deep. Place the panel in the bottom of the hole, attach a stranded copper ground wire in about a 2/0 size and cover the hole with dirt. Best ground made.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Zombee said:


> Here may be the question...
> 
> In other words, it takes more joules to push a certain amount of energy through say 30 miles of fence (0.5 joules) Then it does to push that same certain amount of energy through 5 miles of fence (0.1 joules).


Wrong. As one of my favorite physics professors would say, "Pure Nonsense."


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## Zombee (Mar 20, 2016)

I concede to you Richard. I simply cannot argue with your type of logic. Doesn't mean I agree. And either my fence keeps animals in, or out as the case may be, or it doesn't. So either it works or it doesn't. My fences all working wonderfully. I guess they forgot to read your "rule" books. Have a super day!


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Zombee said:


> I am just a backwoods hillbilly in Kentucky. Can't keep up with all you engineers no way. And we don't have bears in western Kentucky. But I do keep goats. An animal that is down right determined to get to the other side of a fence. The only way I have found to keep them in is an electric fence.
> 
> Rock


From what I understand a goat is the hardest animal to stop with an electric fence. I would not put my EE against your goat any day!


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