# 1:1 sugar water pH adjusted recipe



## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

This past year when I mixed 1:1 sugar water, I routinely added 1 or 2 tbsp of Bragg apple cider vinegar to move the pH down. In retrospect, I think this is NOT the way to do it.

Does anyone have a recipe for pH adjusted sugar water, OR is my thinking wrong?

I have read in various places that the higher alkaline sugar water may contribute to various ailments, and that the lower pH sugar water may reduce the risk of these ailments.

Phil


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## CS Bee Man (Dec 30, 2013)

I use vitamin C crystals from the health food store, about a teaspoon to 12 lbs of sugar in 1:1 or 2:1 syrup. The bees took it fine. I fed for about 5 months last year. I have been a beek for almost a year. Have four hives two nucs and raised two queens.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Phil, the problem with a set "formula" is that water's pH varies from place to place. You really have to test the water source you will be using. A simple test kit will do the job for you. Once you know your pH, then you can adjust up or down (usually down) with your Bragg's and retest/tinker with THAT sample until you hit the pH you want. Then you can make your syrup using the figures you've already determined to get your pH. That's what I did anyhow.

Unless somebody out there knows a better way?

FWIW


Rusty


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## DRAKOS (Oct 17, 2011)

And what is our target for PH?


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## CS Bee Man (Dec 30, 2013)

I shoot for 3.5 to 4 using a PH meter.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I use Hydrion short range test papers ( 3.0 to 5.5 ph ) and ascorbic acid to adjust my syrup. For my water, 3.5 grams of ascorbic acid crystals is enough to adjust a batch of 5:3 syrup made with 25 lbs of sugar down to a ph of about 4.0

I should measure the crystals to see approximately what the dry measure would be so that measuring spoons could be used...


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

I aim for 4.0, although nectar varies from as low as 2.9 to as high as 6.4, I believe. The 4.0 seemed like a reasonable middle point to me.

HTH

Rusty


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

In my observation, vinegar as an acid source is hard on bees, spoils quickly, and promotes robbing and draws yellow jackets. Powdered ascorbic acid (as a canning supplement) or crushed vitamin C pills have become my practice. Ascorbic acid, Cream or Tartar, Oxalic acid, Acetic acid would all catalyze sugar inversion. Ascorbic is likely the best to prevent souring of the syrup. 

Mostly I have abandoned vinegar because it too easy to overdose the syrup-- you add it as the technical "glug" from the gallon bottle-- as you mix up 10 gallons at a time. And too much gets poured into the mix.

An acid source functions to catalyze the inversion (splitting) of white sugar to glucose-fructose. Once sugar has been split (hydrolyzed); the fructose, itself, becomes a hydrogen donor to the solution and promotes an acid reaction observed in honey. 

Bees make honey (of typically low pH) just fine from naturally occurring high-sucrose nectar (eg. Avocado = 93% sucrose, 7% undigestible 7 carbon carbohydrate). They catalyze the hydrolysis of sucrose using the enzyme invertase present in their honey crop. The nectar is collected neutral pH and is stored in cells as unripe honey of low (acid) pH.

I suppose some sucrose will by pass the crop unconverted and serve to neutralize the pH in the hind-gut. Does this happen more than with "typical" nectar of 50% sucrose -50% glucose-fructose. 

The metabolic cost of the enzyme invertase to the bees is likely extremely low. If you give bees pure sucrose, they make honey of low pH, because that solution of fructose/glucose is low pH.

No canned recipe can be given -- because the buffering ability of various water sources varies enormously. Hard water (with high cations Ca++, Mg++) will neutralize any added H+ because it will preferentially form BiCarbonate salts (HCO3)- or sulfate (HSO4-) before the H+ remains free in solution.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

What happens if syrup ferments? Will the alcohol produced repel the bees, or will they get drunk on it anyways and likely intoxicate themselves to death and/or harm the brood? I've never put large quantities, so I've never had any go bad...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>In my observation, vinegar as an acid source is hard on bees, spoils quickly, and promotes robbing and draws yellow jackets. Powdered ascorbic acid (as a canning supplement) or crushed vitamin C pills have become my practice.

I agree. I tried vinegar and was not pleased with the results. I use vitamin C. I buy the 1000mg ones from Sam's club pretty cheaply.

The other issue with a "recipe" is not just the pH of the water, but how much of certain things that absorb the acid, e.g. act as a buffer. If there is a lot of lime in the water, for instance, it will absorb more of acid with no real change in pH because it is being offset by the lime. My target is always 4.5 pH. That's the top end of the range that honey naturally is, but I think the gut bacteria add some lactic acid so I don't want to go too far acidic.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> >In my observation, vinegar as an acid source is hard on bees, spoils quickly, and promotes robbing and draws yellow jackets. Powdered ascorbic acid (as a canning supplement) or crushed vitamin C pills have become my practice.
> 
> I agree. I tried vinegar and was not pleased with the results. I use vitamin C. I buy the 1000mg ones from Sam's club pretty cheaply.
> 
> The other issue with a "recipe" is not just the pH of the water, but how much of certain things that absorb the acid, e.g. act as a buffer. If there is a lot of lime in the water, for instance, it will absorb more of acid with no real change in pH because it is being offset by the lime. My target is always 4.5 pH. That's the top end of the range that honey naturally is, but I think the gut bacteria add some lactic acid so I don't want to go too far acidic.


Thank you Mr. Bush and all for helpful comments. Our municipal water here is naturally soft (Baltimore City), but with additional CL/FL likely buffers or otherwise effects (affects?) the pH. Is your target of 4.5 of the water before miixing or of completed sugar water?

Phil


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is your target of 4.5 of the water before miixing or of completed sugar water?

After mixing.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

... and add the ascorbic acid to the water before adding the sugar.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

BeeCurious said:


> ... and add the ascorbic acid to the water before adding the sugar.


First trial:
What I will plan to do is mix water and ascorbic acid to arrive at pH of around 4.0 +/- .25. Record amounts used.
Mix equal parts (by volume) of the water and sugar under low heat until fully dissolved.
Remeasure pH. As long as pH is at least 4.0 (no lower) feed to bees.

For second trial, add (or subtract) amount of ascorbic acid used similar to first trial, starting with pH adjusted water corrected as necessary to arrive at pH of 4.0-5.0 for final product. 

I am hoping that our municipal water does not vary to much, but perhaps that is unrealistic.

Thanks all for your comments and advice.

Phil


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

If sugar blocks are made by compacting and drying moistened sugar in molds would you first adjust the ph of the water before mixing?


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

I do wonder how justified this obsession for fine-tuning is. Are there any studies linking syrup pH to hive pH? Probably has an impact, but how much? And then linking hive pH to hive health?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Are there any studies linking syrup pH to hive pH? Probably has an impact, but how much? And then linking hive pH to hive health? 

I don't know, but it's easy to do one on syrup spoiling...


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm am going to test my waters PH. Say it's 3.5 How much crushed up Vit C does it take to change the PH to 4.0+


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Hambone said:


> I'm am going to test my waters PH. Say it's 3.5 How much crushed up Vit C does it take to change the PH to 4.0+



It depends of the buffering capacity (alkalinity) of your syrup mix. You can get an akalinty test kit and do a bunch of calculations from there, but you will be much better off with a pH meter and the trial and error approach.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Hambone said:


> I'm am going to test my waters PH. Say it's 3.5 How much crushed up Vit C does it take to change the PH to 4.0+


If it's 3.5 you are on the acidic end. We have alkali water here and it is up on the 7.0 range. Vitamin C will bring it down.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I think maybe Hambone is talking about raising the pH up to 4, so you are right vitamine C not work. What does one do in that case? Would pickling lime Ca(OH)2 work? That is what I used to add to my fish tank. 

Either way you need a pH meter to figure out how much to add.


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Sorry I meant bring it up. I'll get a Ph meter and will ask questions once I know what it is.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm am going to test my waters PH. Say it's 3.5 How much crushed up Vit C does it take to change the PH to 4.0+

As Mike pointed out, acid will move it lower, not higher, and as Nabber pointed out, assuming you are trying to bring it down, "it depends of the buffering capacity (alkalinity) of your syrup mix." It seems intuitive that pH is measuring alkalinity, but it is not. pH is measuring the reciprocal of the hydrogen ion activity, in other words the lower the number the more free H+ are in solution. Alkalinity, on the other hand is the quantitative capacity of a water solution to neutralize an acid. For instance a water solution with a lot of sodium bicarbonate will have a pH of around 7. But just pure water is also around 7. The pure water, however, will quickly change pH when acid is added. The sodium bicarbonate solution will absorb a lot more acid for the same change in pH. Water typically has some amount of lime in it (calcium hydroxide -- Ca(OH)2) and that can absorb a lot of acid before changing pH. It will also raise the pH some, but it will resist changes in pH as it absorbs acids.

>Are there any studies linking syrup pH to hive pH? Probably has an impact, but how much? And then linking hive pH to hive health? 

There are several studies by Martha Gilliam that show that changes in nectar affect the bacteria in the gut and that feeding sugar syrup disrupts the bacteria in the gut. 

http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/gilliam-archives

There is now at least one study that show that feeding sugar syrup disrupts the biofilm in the gut of the bee.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188

It seems to me that most likely cause of this change is the pH difference between nectar honey and the sugar syrup.


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

There are a bunch of meters on amazon from $8-40. Do y'all have a recommendation on the kind you use?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Just use test paper strips, unless you have a reason to own a quality pH meter.
pH meters should be QC checked against standards frequently, they are very, very touchy.
I have a Hach sensION1, but would not recommend it.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Hambone said:


> There are a bunch of meters on amazon from $8-40. Do y'all have a recommendation on the kind you use?


I prefer meters and a set of calibration solutions. But I have other uses for pH measurement. I like Oakton and Hanna, but they are pricey. 

This one comes with calibration mix. Why mess with strips when this is $15? :

http://www.amazon.com/CyberTech-PHT...-Included/dp/B005KGKCRA/ref=zg_bs_393271011_3


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> It seems intuitive that pH is measuring alkalinity, but it is not. pH is measuring the reciprocal of the hydrogen ion activity, in other words the lower the number the more free H+ are in solution.



Sorry, don’t mean to be pedantic, but pH is the _logarithm_ of the reciprocal of hydrogen ion concentration in (g/L)
If there are 1E-7 hydrogen ions by mass, the pH would be 7. 

log (1/1E-7) = 7

Concentration of 1E-14; pH = 14 and so on.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Hambone said:


> Sorry I meant bring it up. I'll get a Ph meter and will ask questions once I know what it is.


Is there a reasonably priced pH meter that stays working after the first month? I have not had good luck with the soil test pH meters. I am presently cruising the web looking for papers that test in the range of ~ 3.0 to ~6.0.

Hambone, if you have a means to test pH, and your water is 3.5, you might just try mixing 1:1 sugar water. You might be in the good range (4.0-5.0).


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> Just use test paper strips, unless you have a reason to own a quality pH meter.
> pH meters should be QC checked against standards frequently, they are very, very touchy.
> I have a Hach sensION1, but would not recommend it.


Do you have a source for papers?

Phil


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

philip.devos said:


> Do you have a source for papers?
> 
> Phil


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...M4kzxsJw3zk5H2mqQ&sig2=OUnP8GC0F1RzOlU_NZsjbg


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

philip.devos said:


> Do you have a source for papers?
> 
> Phil


Measuring pH is particularly difficult when you are trying measure on the small scale. Strips are good if you want to get plus or minus 1 pH unit in general, but they are unrealistic to use to measure on the 0.1 unit level (regardless of what the specs on the papers indicate). The difference between 3.4 and 4 is somewhat meaningless unless you are working on very complex chemical reactions and is not really needed for measuring the effectiveness of sugar syrup for bee feeding. For syrup you want acidic conditions between 4 and 6. On that scale, pH strips are fine for getting a good indication. If you really want to get more precise readings you need a calibrated pH meter. pH meters are somewhat hard to maintain, but if you get calibration solutions they are way more precise. 

That said, it is a personal choice. Use papers if you want a rough idea, which is fine for bee feeding. If you want precision, go with a meter. But don't fool yourself thinking that you are doing any better for you bees if you use a meter to measure to a tenth of a unit. It really doesn't matter. 

amazon has several choices of pH papers and meters. Decide what you want and go for it.


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## ptmerrill (Jul 24, 2012)

The probability of a municipal water supply being a ph of 3.5 or 4.0 is basically 0. The corrosive nature of water that low would destroy the distribution pipes, corrode and pin hole any copper pipes. Most municipal water is maintained between 7.25 and 8.5 for corrosion control.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

BeeCurious said:


> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...M4kzxsJw3zk5H2mqQ&sig2=OUnP8GC0F1RzOlU_NZsjbg


Thanks BeeCurious! That range should work well.

Phil


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Ok I tested my water. First I called the water dept and they said they try to maintain 8. Sure enough I tested and it was really close to 8. 

Questions for a 25lb of sugar 1:1 mix.

Best acid to use and where do you get it?

Cold water or hot water when you mix it?

Once I add the acid how long does it take to change the Ph?

Once I add the sugar will the sugar change the Ph much? If so can I add more acid to the 1:1.

Sorry for all the dumb questions but this is interesting.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Questions for a 25lb of sugar 1:1 mix.

I never make 1:1. I make 5:3 for all purposes.

>Best acid to use and where do you get it?

I like Ascorbic (Vitamin C). I buy 1000 mg tablets at Sam's Club in very large containers. Never paid attention to what size.

>Cold water or hot water when you mix it?

For 1:1 hot tap water works. For 5:3 I have to boil the water and then add the sugar. But I think the hardness of your water affects how much will dissolve.

>Once I add the acid how long does it take to change the Ph?

I add the vitamin C to the water and after it boils it's dissolved. If I add it to the syrup it never dissolves. It has already changed the pH by the time it's dissolved in the water.

>Once I add the sugar will the sugar change the Ph much?

Probably.

> If so can I add more acid to the 1:1.

I don't know how it will work with 1:1 but adding more will not dissolve in 5:3


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Thanks Michael. How big are your batches of 5:3 when you make it and how many tablets of vitamin C does it take to change your Ph?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How big are your batches of 5:3 

Five gallons.

>when you make it and how many tablets of vitamin C does it take to change your Ph? 

7 which is 7 grams of Ascorbic acid (1000mg = 1 g)


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

How long will the syrup keep once the PH has been adjusted? Does temperature make much of a difference? At the end of next fall I will likely be feeding nucs to weight for winter. I would like to make a batch of about 30 gallons and it will probably be used over about 3 weeks. Temps can vary from 60-80 degrees in the unheated building I plan to keep the vessel in.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> How long will the syrup keep once the PH has been adjusted? Does temperature make much of a difference? Temps can vary from 60-80 degrees in the unheated building I plan to keep the vessel in.


Temperature affects the pH of a solution; so technically, a temperature should be referenced when reporting a pH level. I *think* the standard temperature is 60 degrees F, but don’t quote me on that. Most decent pH meters compensate for temperature and report what the pH would be at 60 degrees even if your solution is 50 or 70 degrees. So the answer to your question is yes. 

In practice however, you don’t need to worry about it. The pH change is small and you are shooting for a range of pH in your sugar solution, not an absolute value. 

How small or how big of a change depends on a numbers of factors including the specific gravity of the solution (how much sugar per gallon of water) and the buffering capacity of the solution. So trying to figure out what the temperature affect would take a lot of measuring (you would need a hydrometer or a sensitive scale and a volumetric flask - simply measureing volumes of sugar and water would not be accurate enough) . I am sure there are tables (probably even in graphical form too) somewhere out on the internet that show various pH levels at various temperature for various sugar solutions. If you find the info, don’t be surprised if the density is reported in degrees Brix or Plato.

As far as keeping the sugar solution, other than the slight pH fluctuations due to temperature, I dont think there would be anything happening that would alter the pH with time.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks Nabber. Does the syrup keep longer after its PH has been adjusted? Any idea how long it will keep?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How long will the syrup keep once the PH has been adjusted?

Several times as long, but it will eventually succumb. Instead of the black mold you usually get, you'll finally get some red mold...

>Does temperature make much of a difference?

Temperature always makes a difference in spoiling.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks. I'll bear that in mind.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My theory is to make only what I need when I need it, but surprises happen, of course. If you have it around for a while you can freeze it, or boil it. Boiling will start fresh. Freezing will keep indefinitely.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> Temperature always makes a difference in spoiling.


Good point. Spoiling would also change the pH. Lactica acid bacteria (Lactobacillus) is pretty common and would lower thepH

a Of course if it is spolied you probably dont feed it to your bees regardless of the pH.


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