# Acclimatized bees, biggest scam in bee sales?



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

What are you? Some kind of a rabble rouser? Of course bees adapt to their surroundings like all of us do. Those who cannot, do not thrive. Also a consideration is who is caring for these bees? I got back into bees after a twenty five year absense and helped form a consortium to get nucs. Well, by the nit pickers standards, they were splits of bees fresh off the california almonds with caged queens from California and Florida not genuine nucleus colonies. Whatever mine were, they drew all their comb from foundation and were split to double their number and I ended up with a modest crop off the original colonies in fact about the national average production and except for the one I should shake out have plenty of stores with no fall feeding. 

Most of the colonies in the consortium ended up with beginners and the results were not quite the same. Not saying I am special, I am not. But I chose good pasture and did what was needed when it was needed and headed off most problems. I think the bees often get a bad wrap when they fail to train their operators in a timely manner. Also I cannot imagine trying to keep bees in the overpopulated, over pesticided and overly regulated land east of the Mississippi! My condolences on your losses.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Surviving or dying alone is not really any indication of adaptability. Maybe of minimum ability to a particular environment but nothing more. It seems to me that a better measure of Adaptation in particular would be does a specific colony improve season to season? This requires that it survives for several years at least. Adaptation is something that the bees need time to do. not just pop out of the hive in a strange location and get to right away.

There are plenty of other issues that may effect the apparent adaptation of a particular hive such as the care they receive. the specific location, good year or bad year, overall health of the hive for many many reasons etc. In fact every topic of conversation can be silenced by throwing that laundry list at it. that is not advantageous to education, discovery or conversation.

Anyway I would like to see any comments form people that did or did not see a hive improve over time. At least to some degree I find it hard to believe that bees are incapable of adapting at least to some degree. They are mobile after all and will naturally move themselves around. Issues such as resistance to a colder climate may be beyond there ability though.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

What Brother Adam is pointing out is that the development cycle is genetic. Using my area as an example, we have a spring flow, summer dearth, and fall flow. Carniolans tend to do very well in the spring flow but poorly in the fall. Caucasians tend to do poorly in the spring flow but take full advantage of the fall flow. Italians make a good crop from both spring and fall flows but maintain huge colonies during the summer dearth which consumes honey unnecessarily. Buckfast bees were developed specifically to take advantange of a spring flow, summer dearth, and fall flow. This is also true of most of the European Apis Mellifera Mellifera and it is a genetic trait. This trait of AMM is also the major reason why they should be included in any breeding program for the Southern U.S.

Survival of the fittest is the only form of adaptation to the environment for honeybees. But survival of the fittest does not necessarily mean they are going to produce a crop of honey for you to harvest. To say this another way, man can learn and therefore adapts the environment. Bees do not learn as such and therefore can only perform as their genetics dictate. After a few generations, the bees that survive will be the bees that are adapted to the environment. As Brother Adam points out, if you bring a tropical bee into a temperate environment, they retain the tropical adaptations which is a huge disadvantage in the new climate. For example, the Egyptian bee A.M. Lamarckii does not collect propolis and does not form a winter cluster. This bee cannot adapt to a temperate environment except if it is suitably crossed to a temperate strain like Apis Mellifera Mellifera. I would dearly love to have a bee that does not collect propolis.

You can say with some accuracy that bees are flexible in response to changes in the environment. An example is the response to the mad rush of the spring flow. The brood tending bees move over to nectar handling and field duties, the queen slows down egg laying, and the field bees work dawn to dark bringing in nectar. This allows the colony to maximize the opportunity to produce honey.

DarJones


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Here's a case for you. After I moved to Arkansas, I brought six hives from Oregon. Five of them died the first fall and winter. The remaining one was totally unremarkable the next year, but I didn't requeen because I wanted to keep the last vestiges of that strain. The following year, 2010, I split that hive and it still made almost three deeps of honey and its split made more than one. This year, 2011, I split that same original hive six times. No honey naturally, but I still have it. It's that queen or one of her daughters who appears as my mascot on my website.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Fusion_power said:


> Buckfast bees were developed specifically to take advantange of a spring flow, summer dearth, and fall flow. This is also true of most of the European Apis Mellifera Mellifera and it is a genetic trait. This trait of AMM is also the major reason why they should be included in any breeding program for the Southern U.S.


Where do you get them? Short of getting lucky and finding ferals somewhere they are unavailable in the US.

Solomon:
What was the source of your 6 hives? Were they related hives?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The twenty original 3 lb. packages came from Koehnen and Sons in Orland California in 2003. Ten were 'Italian' and ten were 'Carniolan.'

I consider all swarms a source of new information. If they survive the first winter and provide generally desirable characteristics, so much the better. I tend to get very small swarms around here so I think there are a couple of small tree hollow colonies that have been surviving here since I moved here at least.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Whether the proper semantics are "acclimatized", "adapted", "survivor", of "dem bees dat winter gud 'n make lots hunny" is moot.

I think that in the context of selling to a local or regional climate the meaning is clear to most: these bees are not form a strain that proved that they die in our winters and/or forage conditions. The mother queen (or line) has done acceptably well here. 

Some folks value that. So there is a niche market willing to pay a premium.

Unless, of course those bees "ain't from around here" after all.
And usually, they are what they are from where they say they are.

There may be some poor semantics being used, but no scam.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

there are so many variables here there is no correct answer. best to worry about doing good beekeeping with what you have.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Dar, I have to inform you that 3 percent of the bees in Alabama are Lamarckii. You will find these bees up and down the Alabama river valley. They do form a winter cluster. They were brought into this area around the turn of the early twentith century. They were brought in because they have a very nice golden color. We have several yards that are genetically close to the original stock. These bees exist in genetic pockets that back breed among themselves. We also have 2 percent AMI stock that still exist in nearby areas. This is the Spanish black bee. These can be down right on the nasty side, while the Egyptian bee is fairly gentle. TED


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Thanks Ted, I was aware of the Lamarckii influence in local feral bees. But my statements are about the pure Lamarckii. They don't collect propolis. They don't form a winter cluster.

DarJones


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

]


Winter in Alabama :lpf::lpf::lpf:


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> So what do you guys think? Is the massive die offs of first year southern packages due to owner error over environmental shock?


Environmental shock? Probably not. Unsuitable genetics I would say. I bet I could take southern packages, select from the colonies I feel winter the best, and over time have colonies that winter well...better than the original stocks. Does that mean they have acclimatized? Beats me. Does developing a "local" bee take years...or eons. 

Think about this... 

Dr Jamie Strange studied the Amm bee in the Provencial region of France. The local beekeepers using this bee calimed that they were "Acclimatized" to the local conditions. They felt that the migratory beekeepers entering the region with their Buckfast stocks were polluting their bee. Jamie took brood area measurments throughout the bee season of both the local Amm bee and the imported Buckfast bees. In Provence they have a Lavender flow that is famous. 

He showed that the Amm bees had a brood rearing spike prior to the Lavender flow, while the Buckfast bees had a brood rearing spike as a result of the flow. To me, this was proof that a local bee could be produced over time.

Acclimatized or local or adapted...I guess it's the same?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have imported queens to my apiary for decades from Kelly, Weaver, Velbert, Hawaii, Ontario and others far east/north/south,west of me and most have fared much better than California queens that I have bought. I have a five year old BWeaver survivor hive in my poorest apiary that has outlived dozens of bait hives I have trapped locally. The California Koehnens and Strachans I bought the same year are long gone.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Jim, Alabama from central Alabama to the North has a winter that is not pleasent. We are not far enough North to have lots of snow in feet that soaks the moisture out of the air for lower humidities. We are not far enough south for sunny Weather with sea breezes blowing in from both coasts such as in Florida. We sit here at elevations between 1200 and 2500 feet in the tail end of the Appalachains. And we do have some snow but at 5-7 inches at a time. What we have here is a wet bone chilling cold that stays in the 48 degree range for a daily average from the middle of December to the Tenth of February. The weather is hard on bees because the day length, they keep rearing some brood thinking spring is around the corner. Thus they end of starving out if you do not keep an eye on them. TED


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

odfrank said:


> I have imported queens to my apiary for decades from Kelly, Weaver, Velbert, Hawaii, Ontario and others far east/north/south,west of me and most have fared much better than California queens that I have bought. I have a five year old BWeaver survivor hive in my poorest apiary that has outlived dozens of bait hives I have trapped locally. The California Koehnens and Strachans I bought the same year are long gone.


Can you confirm that the original queen is 5 years old or has there perhaps been a supercedure or 2 along the way? I can remember a few hives doing the same for me in past years when we wintered hives and I always wished that the queen had been marked.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> they keep rearing some brood thinking spring is around the corner. Thus they end of starving out if you do not keep an eye on them. TED


Sounds like you don't have the right bee for the right location. "Local" bees would develop brood cycles that prevent the starvation.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

ya using the correct bee is very important you should try a Russian cross Carnolian since they don't produce brood until they have pollen and nectar and very frugal on there stores.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

jim lyon said:


> Can you confirm that the original queen is 5 years old or has there perhaps been a supercedure or 2 along the way? I can remember a few hives doing the same for me in past years when we wintered hives and I always wished that the queen had been marked.


I said survivor hive, not survivor queen. The winter losses here, without treatments, have been so severe since 2006 that any hive that lives more than three years is a miracle.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

The "scam" isn't in the principle, it's in the practice.

With any population (bee, plant, mammal) there is the potential for the expression of trait combinations that will not only perform well in the environment but also be desirable for the person selecting/using/selling the animal.

This process takes time, and requires meticulous record-keeping and acute attention to detail. The process is dynamic and ongoing.

Claims to have acclimatized bees in a few short generations/seasons based on tiny breeding populations (" the best queen of ours from 20 hives..." is a good example) is less of a scam and more plain ignorance.

One teacher I had always used to say:

"Why do you think breeders often have grey hair?"

Selection takes time, energy and patience. 

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

With the multiple mating aspects of the honey bee. It is possible to have a queen who does well in any given environment, but have a certain % of her offspring express a trait that is completely non-compatible to the environment...

To be accurate I think we would have to keep all queens for at least a full year before selling them as adapted or acclimated stock...


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Barry, we are at the edge of the cut off zone. By that, bees will keep a patch of brood the size of your hand through the winter. To the north Broodless, to the South full frames of brood. This is also a possible adaptation in response from mite pressure keeping a hand sized patch of brood through the winter. And some of the stock is CarniolianXItalian. The bee I wish I had for the area would be the Mountain Gray Caucasians. TED


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## josethayil (Jul 17, 2008)

Jamie Strange, PH'd...was a post doc at Cornell, and now at Utah or Idaho...studied the French bees in France. The local beekeepers of these Apis m. m. felt that the importation of Buckfast bees into their area was polluting their stock. He wanted to know if the A. mm. were actually local bees and were in some way different than the Buckfast.

He looked at brood rearing of both straing, measuring square inches of brood, and the relationship of peaks in brood rearing and local flows.

He found that the local A. mm bees actually had brood rearing spikes IN ANTICIPATION of the local Lavender flow, and a later flow during the season. The Buckfast bees had a brood rearing spike AS A RESULT of the flows. 

This does show that bees can be Acclimatized to a region and climate.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> To be accurate I think we would have to keep all queens for at least a full year before selling them as adapted or acclimated stock...


Probably true, but then your selling tested breeder queens and the price would go up a bunch.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> The bee I wish I had for the area would be the Mountain Gray Caucasians. TED


Me too Ted. I never got to see that bee, but would love to. They're gone aren't they?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

josethayil said:


> This does show that bees can be Acclimatized to a region and climate.


Well, to me it means that there really can be a local bee and if so it is a bee that has acclimitized to the local weather conditions and flow patterns.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

So, what is your advice for people like me who keep 10-20 hives and probably will never grow much bigger? We should buy queens from other local keepers whose bees have not had outside influences for years instead of buying from the major breeders 100's of miles away?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

It's seems that the confusion here is in the terminology..."Acclimation" has many different levels..."Adaptation" is the process... 

Bees differ from other creatures... ie...

A human from the south may move north as a young adult and become "accustomed" to the northern climate... this does not happen with bees, and that is all that brother Adam was pointing out... bees "adapt" over many generations, so moving a queen from a southern lineage into the north will not change the way that this particular colony will operate... the different flow times, forage types, snow depth, and low temps will cause a stress on the colony... if the colony survives, these stresses will be communicated and thus the characteristics of the next generation will be altered slightly... the more generations that pass, the more the characteristics will have been altered to suit the new climate...

The laying habits of a queen are based on two sets of variables... instinct and calculation... the stresses of the lineages before her provide the instinctual characteristics, such as how accurately she should calculate the incoming food and what equation of brood to food she should keep...

So a hive may alter its brood rearing slightly when it is moved into a climate that it is not accustomed to... but it must be exposed to that new environment for many generations before it true becomes "acclimated" to that environment...

"Acclimation" is the term used usually in this industry to describe a lineage that is accustomed to and thus performs well in a location... whether it performs very well, or merely survives are completely dependant upon the selection process... but "acclimation" can continue far beyond the queens understanding of the seasonal changes, forage availability, and winter work force needs... it can also go on to change the color of the workforce as a response to the stresses of radiant sun and/or predation... it can effect the average cell size in the colony, it can effect the distance of flight that foragers will go through in order to reach optimal food sources... mostly, people see the brood nest changing to better fit the needs of the colony, and assume that they have acclimated their bees, but it can take many many years and a well trained eye to see the real effects...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

To go a little further into how this understanding is useful in our industry... 

The most widely used method is bringing in queens from the north that are from lineages that have proven well in handling long winters and using them as drone mothers in a mixed mating yard... the queens mated with this mix of drones produce COLONIES that have a certain number of northern bees and southern bees... thus there CAN be certain percentages of workers that will be less effected by the cooler temps and be more apt to work forages that are more productive in the north... the next generation however, runs the CHANCE of the new queen either being developed by an egg that was fertilized by a northern drone or that of a southern drone... so by the original queen being a southern queen, the chances of having more than just one good season are greatly diminished...

The better option is for the breeders to send out their stocks to the different regions and types of operations that their customers in those areas are in... have the participants continue the selection process and raise daughters from the queens that perform the very best in that region and type of operation... then continue the selection process even further and begin sending certain selected breeder queens back to the original breeder for use in developing queens specifically for that region and type of operation... this is what we do and the users of these queens can testify to the vast differences that they experience... there is a downside though... along the lines of what Michael Palmer was saying, its expensive and requires extremely stricken record keeping as well as devoted stocks for certain regions... thus creating a uniquely strenuous process that is likened to selling nothing but breeders at standard prices... producing a hundred thousand queens in a season is a cake walk in comparison... so it really depends on WHAT the customers are demanding... mated queens, or mated queens that are specifically produced to add diversity and lessen losses...


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

josethayil said:


> He looked at brood rearing of both straing, measuring square inches of brood, and the relationship of peaks in brood rearing and local flows.
> 
> He found that the local A. mm bees actually had brood rearing spikes IN ANTICIPATION of the local Lavender flow, and a later flow during the season. The Buckfast bees had a brood rearing spike AS A RESULT of the flows.
> 
> This does show that bees can be Acclimatized to a region and climate.





Michael Palmer said:


> Well, to me it means that there really can be a local bee and if so it is a bee that has acclimitized to the local weather conditions and flow patterns.


I think there is a confusion here between "acclimation" and geographical evolution. The Amm's anticipation of the flow is an evolutionary process which probably took 1000s of years to develop. The Buckfast building up as a result of a flow is a trait that was also developed over eons, but then selectively bred for.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Not exactly. Honey bees progress rather quickly compared to other creatures...

The "geographical evolution" is the process of the strain becoming "acclimated"... traits are promoted very quickly in honey bees, consider that they reproduce annually, and when under stress, multiple times per year... traits that are beneficial in answering the stress are promoted by natural selection removing the colonies that do not respond to the stress, and rapidly reproducing the colonies that do respond to the stress... 

Primorsky bees are a good example... these bees had never been exposed to mites and were managed bees that had no hygienic history... those that swarmed or escaped into the primorsky region during the human migration of the Russians escorting the Ukrainians out of Russia found themselves exposed to varroa immediately... about 100+/- years later, this once non-hygienic bee now possesses the highest level of varroa resistances known... including a hygienic behavior that is quite extreme and in many cases even excessive...

In the case of a strain becoming accustomed to the timing of forage availability... this is probably the number 1 cause of winter losses in northern operations using southern bees... the bees build up too early following instinctual memory... then when spring doesn't come right away, they starve by using their stores to feed brood... this is why so many people are feeding and applying huge patties in late winter/early spring... they need to provide the food for these bees to live on between this early expansion and the actual availablility of forage... 

Swarm prevention and queen control may be an issue here, as allowing a few generations (usually you will notice a difference in build up timing within 2-4 generations) to be produced under the new conditions, the timing will begin to become more and more correct for that climate... by 10 or 20 generations, the timing is usually perfect... 

So it does not take that long for bees to become "accustomed" to the timing of the forages in an area, you just have to allow them to reproduce and keep them alive during the most strenuous manipulation that we humans must do to our bees, move them from one extreme to another... we know how to keep them in both migratory and stationary operations, but the differences between the two are often not understood... the migratory operation doesn't really need an "acclimated" bee, but rather a bee that responds eagerly to feeding and manipulations... while the stationary operation needs a bee that understands when to build up and when to shut down in order to take the most advantage of the areas flows, and survive the areas winters...


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

"Accustomed" bees does not mean that the bees themselves learn. It means the bees that survive are the bees that are genetically "accustomed" to the climate they are living in.

And I strongly agree that there are plenty of bees out there selected specifically for migratory purposes. They are almost all from Italian stocks and have been produced specifically for the purpose of producing tons of bees regardless of season or climate. These bees are not adapted to stationary management because they will always consume a huge amount of the crop in off season brood production. On the other hand, if you are a migratory beekeeper and need to place bees in 3 or 4 locations per year for pollination and maybe some honey, then these bees are ideal.

Which gets to another question. How many queens do you raise from a given breeder?

DarJones


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Most of our breeders are only used for one or two grafts, so each one will usually only produce 300-500 daughters per season... we track our lineages and uses, so that breeders and drone mother colonies are not used two seasons in a row, but instead are "rested" before being allowed back into the selection pool... 

Each breeder is identified during each graft, so cells are planted in a sequence as they go into mating nucs... there are usually no less than 40 separate lines being planted at one time, creating an order of planting and caging that allows us to know that when we cage queens to ship to a customer, they do not receive all sisters... for example:

John Doe orders 40 queens... none of the queens that he receives will be sisters...
Jane Doe orders 80 queens... she will receive 2 queens from each breeder... the way that the queens are placed in the shipping container is also in sequence... so as Mrs Doe is installing her queens, she will go through the first 40 lines before she begins to place sisters... in operations that run 10 pallets or less per yard, this creates a very diverse situation that will benefit the operation for many years...

If all of the queens were sisters, then Mrs Doe would be limiting the diversity in her own operation greatly, and in some cases, exclusively using sisters throughout an entire yard or even throughout multiple yards...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

This can be taken a bit further by considering the drones available in the open mating environment for these queens... one could say that it doesn't matter if the queens are sisters because they are only half sisters, but again most purchased breeders are mated using ii and drones from one two colonies, one of which is sometimes even the sane colony that the queens were produced from... so only two sets of half sisters may exist... raising the relation of the sisters greatly...

One could also say that the queens produced from the breeders are mated openly, and thus are adding diversity to the buyers operation once they get replaced by one of their own eggs... but one must also consider what type of requeening practices that breeder may follow themselves... the standard practice is to use ones own queens for increase and requeening... so the drone mother colonies may as well be from the same lineages as the queens that are being mated... thus limiting the future availability of diversity within the customers operations...

It's a vicious cycle... 

Our drone mothers are carefully selected from distant yards are moved to the mating yard specifically to produce drones that are not related to the queens being produced there... this practice is, in my opinion, a very important practice for any large producer...


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

You're best & cheapest way would be to raise you're own. 



heaflaw said:


> So, what is your advice for people like me who keep 10-20 hives and probably will never grow much bigger? We should buy queens from other local keepers whose bees have not had outside influences for years instead of buying from the major breeders 100's of miles away?


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## Grandpa Jim (Apr 20, 2007)

We buy packages in the spring filled with bees produced by hives that have been selected for their production of bees (not honey production or winter hardyness) ...and why not, that is what a producer of packages is selling....bees. If queens are being produced for these packages are they coming from the same stock? If so we are getting bees selected through the years for their ability to produce lots and lots of bees?

We should be raising our own queens and exchanging eggs (to produce queens), queen cells or mated queens with other local keepers to keep diversity in our local stock.

Jim


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