# Which frame type to purchase for foundation-less? Groove or wedge?



## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

If your going to buy the frames from Kelly's get the F style frame. They actually have the best frame for foundationless. They come with a v in the middle of the top bar. And they are close to the other frame prices from the other suppliers.


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## ScienceGirl (Oct 24, 2014)

Billboard said:


> . . . Kelly's get the F style frame. They actually have the best frame for foundationless. They come with a v in the middle of the top bar.


Does anyone have the link to those frames?
They seem to be very elusive. Though I have heard of them, I can't seem to find them.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

ScienceGirl said:


> Does anyone have the link to those frames?
> They seem to be very elusive. Though I have heard of them, I can't seem to find them.


https://www.kelleybees.com/Shop/37/Hives-Components/Frames/4426/Unassembled-Medium-Frames Select F-Style foundationless


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## loghousebees (Jun 13, 2014)

I purchased a couple hundred of the F style frames from Kelley's this past fall and have just put them on a couple of hives this Spring. The girls have not taken to them as quickly as I had hoped but the longest any have been on is three weeks. I'll give them another week or two and check again.


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## ScienceGirl (Oct 24, 2014)

Okay, next question: split or groove bottom?


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## KbeeG (Mar 29, 2014)

Last year I used the both the Kelley F type and the Dadant wedge top (foundationless). I found that breaking off the wedge and having that straight edge worked better than the Kelley frames. The Kelley F frames are neater looking and well made.


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## Royal (May 4, 2015)

This year (my first, actually) I have done foundationless on all 3 of my hives. I haven't really been able to look yet, but I bought wedge types simply because the old beekeeping equipment I already had was wedge. Other than the ones with starter strips, I just left the wedges out.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

ScienceGirl said:


> Okay, next question: split or groove bottom?


I don't think it matters for foundationless; the bees usually don't draw to the bottom. I made the mistake of buying groove top; that's ok if you are not ever using foundation. Unless you are sure you will be 100% foundationless, I would get wedge; you can either turn the wedge and glue in place, or leave the wedge in place and glue in popsickle sticks or the craft sticks (look like tongue depressors).


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

https://www.kelleybees.comhttps://www.kelleybees.com/
Hover on "shop our products" then "hives and components" then click frames. Chose unassembled frames in the size that interests you. Scroll down to where it asks you to pick a style and chose F,
Bill

I see that while I was figuring this out, others already knew.
Bill


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I've used wedge top frames with the wedge turned downward (from both Dadant and Beeline) for several years in my foundationless frames.

They work flawlessly, require no additional parts or cutting of sticks as do Popsicle sticks, project less into the frame than the popsicle stocks, and so do not impede cutting comb, and are available from any bee supply house.

I use grooved bottom bars rather than split as the split serves no purpose without foundation, but can harbor small hive beetles, and I think the grooved ones are stronger.

Have fun.
Enjoy your bees.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I use mann lake wedge top. snap off the wedge, insert in groove facing down and the bees do the rest. Make sure your hive is level.(Side to side) I would prefer solid bottoms for the reasons mentioned above, but grooved are the second best option in my opinion. Good Luck. G


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I am currently running all foundationless and shaved end bars to 1.25" wide. So 11 frames per box. All were on Mann Lake grooved frames with tongue depressors glued in. They have worked great. I also orderd 100 of the F type from Kelley and just now put some in the hive a couple weeks ago. They have drawn out great drone comb on them as I am using them to expand the brood nest. So far so good.

I don't think you can go wrong, and if you have a large order to make the cost savings over the whole order by going with Mann Lake will make you willing to make the extra step of gluing in sticks or wedge.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

ScienceGirl said:


> Also looking to produce foundation-less comb honey: not sure if a certain frame type would impede comb cutting/harvesting, would one type of frame be preferable?


I tried foundationless for comb honey last year. I just put empty standard grooved top and bottom frames between frames of thin foundation and had no issues with them being properly drawn.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I have used all of them for foundationless.

Groove frames; glue popsicle sticks in the grooves, these are usually the cheapest (mann lake) frames and are still cheapest after cost of the popsicle sticks.

Wedge frames; turn the wedge and glue or nail it back.

Foundationless; No additional work, have a solid bottom bar which is strong and not place for beetles. these are a little more expensive than the other two.

They all work the same. Put the empty between two nice brood frames during a flow and the bee draw it perfect.


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