# old combs



## gangheim (Mar 25, 2001)

I recently got some old hives and supers which have not been used for 3-4 yrs.Many of the supers had 50% or more of there space filled with good looking comb. Should I scrape this off and start again or do my new bees get a headstart?


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2001)

Leave it, they'll clean it up and go from there. It will give them a head start, as they won't have to build out the comb. I'm starting a new package hive next month, and saved some combed honey and frames for just that purpose. Good luck, Tom.


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gangheim:
*I recently got some old hives and supers which have not been used for 3-4 yrs.Many of the supers had 50% or more of there space filled with good looking comb. Should I scrape this off and start again or do my new bees get a headstart?

*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
do yourself and your bees a favor melt down the comb and scrap the frames, use a propane weed burner on the inside of the hive bodies and supers this is your only sure way of eliminating any afb spores in your used equipment , provide your bees with new foundation and clean equipment and they will return the favor with beautiful honey, use you new comb for two years max, and start with new foundation agian, old foundation will darken your honey, if you dont believe me just check your old foundation agianst new comb honey and you will see the difference, joel


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Originally posted by joelz:

[/b][/QUOTE]
use you new comb for two years max, and start with new foundation agian, old foundation will darken your honey, if you dont believe me just check your old foundation agianst new comb honey and you will see the difference, joel[/B][/QUOTE]

Hello Joel -

It's true that comb will darken with age, but I'm interested in knowing why you replace your comb after two years of use. Does it have anything to do with chemical contamination of the wax? I don't know of any reason to replace solely on color.

Regards,
Barry


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

> Originally posted by Barry:
> 
> barry it has to do with quality beekeeping management, you should be continuosly rotating out you comb, the purpose, your comb is like a magnet for all types of contaminants, pollution ect, if you want top quality hives and honey you must rotate your comb. i really dont care about the dolor of comb its the color of honey which comes from that comb and as i previously stated your hives will be healthier rotating brood comb yearly, joel
> 
> [This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 19, 2001).]


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Joel -

Looks like we need to get a few things clear before going much further.

First, I know of no study that would support the practice of using comb in the hive no longer than 2 years. Now you are even saying yearly. I have seen 3 year cycles suggested in journals. Personally, I would suggest about a 3 to 4 year maximum useage of brood combs if you are using chemicals in the hive for mite treatment. Especially with Cumaphos now being used in hives, you may want to use the comb even less.

You also mention that honey from dark comb is affected and made lower in quality. Do you then extract honey from brood comb as part of your honey crop? I've not had to worry about this in the past because all my honey comb was used just for honey, so they never got dark. I realize I can't stop contaminates from coming into the hive, but I sure can do something about the contaminates the beekeeper puts into the hive. How about you? Do you use anything for mite control? Do you use any drugs? If one isn't using any of these elements, then I see no need to cull out perfectly good wax in the form of comb. Otherwise, yes, one will have to always be replacing comb so the bees don't end up sick and dead from contaminated wax.

Regards,
Barry


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

sorry barry, but i am associated with the masterbeekeeping program at cornell university,and it is sound magagement to rotate your comb, contsminates are from all sources, air pollution ect ect, come on barry use brood comb for honey production ?? your not talking to a beginner, please dont try and insult me if your going to give advice i suggest you give the right advice, you are only leading beginning beekeeper to a dissapointing end to a wonderful hobbie and pastime.and yes i treat for varroa destructor with chemicals,that has nothing to do with rotating comb out of your hives keep reading barry, but give the correct advice,, joel 



[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 19, 2001).]


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi all,

If one isn't using any of these elements, then I see no need to cull out perfectly good wax in the form of comb. Otherwise, yes, one will have to always be replacing comb so the bees don't end up sick and dead from contaminated wax.

reply:

I agree 100% Barry. One only needs to cull combs when one is using dopes in the hives. As for AFB comb culling doesn't prevent it just wastes good combs. AFB can occur on new combs too. Treat disease when you have it. Other than that you are not doing anything if there is no problem.

come on barry use brood comb for honey production ?? 

reply:

And exactly whats wrong with it? Assuming no dopes have been used. Don't you think bees store nectar in brood combs and then later move it up into the supers? What about the chemical residue that is moved up? Shouldn't one also rotate combs out of supers too! 

Clay


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

Don't forget that it takes about 6lb of honey to make 1lb of wax. If you're rotating comb every two years, you'll make a hole in your honey production. If there are good reasons for doing this, I'd be very grateful to know. I don't use pyrethroids, and coumaphos is illegal in the UK, so as far as I can see the only persistent nasties in my hives are likely to traces brought in from outside, which I have no control over. Until someone shows that these are likely to build up to significant levels, I'm going to worry more about the possibility of disease-carrying comb, and will rotate at a slower rate to safeguard against that. 

Regards,

Robert Brenchley

[email protected]


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

> Originally posted by Clayton:
> 
> I agree 100% Barry. One only needs to cull combs when one is using dopes in the hives. As for AFB comb culling doesn't prevent it just wastes good combs. AFB can occur on new combs too. Treat disease when you have it. Other than that you are not doing anything if there is no problem.
> ----------------------------
> ...


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

clayton , yes i rotate my super comb completely every other year and the honey from this comb is always first rate and bees have no problems drawing new comb during a flow. and beeswax selling for three bucks a pound im not losing money just producing honey that sells.......joel

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 19, 2001).]


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

associated with sounds good but, how many hives do you have and how long have you been keeping bees? I have my first hive from a man in Wisconsin and never did this practice. I do not use chemicals and have the original comb from him going on 7 years. Last year that hive gave me 160lbs. Sounds like overmanaging not good managment.


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rainesridgefarm:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ive been a beekeeper for over ten years and let me say this if your are not treating your hives with chemicals such as apstatian, checkmite, formic acid, terrimiacian, ect ect your bees will not survice also what you doing is a disservice to your bees and any beekeepers within the 2mile range, your best bet is to join a recognized bee club or association better yet take a college level bee course and you will be pleasantly suprised what you dont know about bees. i have numerous beekeepersquestion me every year as to how i produce such strong overwintered hives, its by sound hive management. by rotating 2 or three of your oldest comb out of your hives every spring you will realize stronger , healthier hive that if you manage things correctly you can split your hives once or twice each summer , agian you dont have to believe hat i am writing but i have seen enough wrong advice here, so i cannot stay silent anymore..joel

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 19, 2001).]


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

I have sent samples in and all is clean. I am also certified organic so the use of chemicals is not allowed on the farm. You have been brainwashed into thinking that there is no other way. Sorry for your closed mind. I also have been keeeping bees for a very long time and never have had a problem. good genetics? I also make two to three splits every summer. having spent 9 years in the chemical industry I would look very close at what you are using. I to at one time was a big beliver in better living though science. Saw too many of my fellow researchers dying of cancer.


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

> Originally posted by rainesridgefarm:
> 
> 
> why do you send samples in if they are clean, maybe you are missing your calling you should apply at ohio state university of penn state , or at cornell for research studies im quite sure the usda would like to know you secrets,, because there is a entire country of beekeepers who use chemicals,, sorry but im glad your not a neighboring beekeeper cause your bee problems will become my bee problems when your hive weaken..
> ...


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

What bee problems? You just do not get it!! Build their immune system and all the problems go away. Kelp tea, pepperment oils, Organic soy flour. I am sure you will want the last word. So give it your best shot. But please work on your spelling.


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

if your are not treating your hives with chemicals such as apstatian, checkmite, formic acid, terrimiacian, ect ect your bees will not survice

reply:

If you say so. There are 1000 colonies on 4.9mm cell size that are surviving. 700 of which are now going into there 7th year of zero dopes, acids, oils ect. They are NOT crashing. They are thriving!

what you doing is a disservice to your bees and any beekeepers within the 2mile range, 

reply:

Healthy bees doesn't sound like a disservice to me. Using coumaphos a very dangerous chemical is a disservice. This stuff is deadly and and acculates in combs. Can cause DEATH! Then turn around and sell a product that has residue in it that builds up. Hmmm.... I guess I shouldn't mention that the handler of such chemicals is exposed no matter how much protective gear. Also checkmite is now resitant and apistan! Chemical options will soon be shot. Yes they'll get a new one but most (that are effective)are more dangerous than coumaphos.Whats wrong with chemical free honey?

your best bet is to join a recognized bee club or association better yet take a college level bee course and you will be pleasantly suprised what you dont know about bees

reply:

It wouldn't hurt for general info. But to be taught to pump dopes. NO thanks been down that road. Yet then again clubs and associations CAN provide excellent info.

i have numerous beekeepersquestion me every year as to how i produce such strong overwintered hives, its by sound hive management

reply:

There is more than one way to manage colonies. One does one need to cull combs to do this. Nor do they have to treat with drugs. You are correct sound HIVE management will produce strong colonies. That is working bees properly. AS for comb culling I have done this and see little to no difference. If one wants to cull comb they would be far better off to cull drone comb to 10% per frame as varroa targets drone brood (not drone trapping). Of course bees on 4.9mm cell size chew varroa out at the purple eye stage and can naturally control them. Picturres of this are on the net for the non-believers. 

Clay


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

Thanks for the backup Clay, P.S. I am the secretary/treasurer of our beekeepers Association with over 100 members. Many are comeing to me to find out about alternative solutions. 

[This message has been edited by rainesridgefarm (edited December 19, 2001).]


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Hi -

The URL to those photos that Clay mentioned is: http://www.beesource.com/mitechew/index.htm 

Joelz -

It's obvious that you are preaching the standard party line thought to beekeeping here. I'll also assume that it's the only line you've heard. You have choosen that route for your bees and you are welcome to it. It's also obvious that there are those, myself included, that have tried that route, only to get to a point where it no longer works. The simple fact that Apistan won't take care of varroa on my bees anymore substantiates that. I'm not about to go to the next higher level in chemicals. Apparently you are. You've embraced the chemical answer that has been sold to us by our researchers and before very long, you will find out what the prize is at the end. Surprise! You will have dead bees and contaminated honey and nowhere to turn. Anyone who's keeping pulse of current beekeeping stat's can see this is what's happening.

It's good to question things and share information and debate a bit, but to come on here with guns a blazing, as though a messenger of THE truth, this will not win you any listening ears. Make room in your mind for there possibly being another viewpoint and you just might learn something.

Good luck with your bees.

Regards,
Barry


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## timg (Oct 21, 2001)

As long as you trust the previous owner, I would use it. Even if it has been contaminated with FB, you can treat it. Keep a close eye on the hives the first year that you use the old equipment. Be sure your state inspector has a look at it as offen as possible and you will be fine.
Good Luck,


------------------
Tim Gifford


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

> Originally posted by Barry:
> 
> hello barry, do you purchase foundation, or raw beeswax from beekeeping suppliers? well guess what your buying beeswax with all of the chemicals used to surpress varroa already contaminating your beeswax. and one more question, why are your bees becoming resistant to apstain? why because beekeepers are not following the medication directions, they are either pulling the strips out of the hives too early or leaving them in overwinter... one last thing when you give advice to beginning beekeepers your reciting from a book is just that, if thats all they need then why do colleges like cornell have master beekeeping programs? all beginners need to do is read a book right?
> 
> [This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 19, 2001).]


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

> Originally posted by Clayton:
> 
> hello clay, do you purchase foundation or beeswax from a supplier? well guess what you have so called contaminated wax, how many mites do you count when you do a either roll on your untreated hives? nick calderone at cornell would love to have you on his research team. the only way you are going to have uncontaminated wax is if you start with a supply of uncontaminated wax, thats not possible today, or if you live in new zealand, the contaminats you are raving about are in the fraction of a ppm,
> 
> ...


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

hello clay, do you purchase foundation or beeswax from a supplier? 

reply:

No. I Make my own foundation with my own mill. My wax is self contained. The only thing that is in that wax is FGMO which is safe for consumption.

Clay


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Joelz wrote:
hello barry, do you purchase foundation, or raw beeswax from beekeeping suppliers?

reply:
I do not buy foundation anymore. I made my own from my own chemical free wax.

Joelz wrote:
why are your bees becoming resistant to apstain?

reply:
Because you can never kill 100 percent of anything with chemicals and those that you don't kill will build up resistance over time. Sure, the misuse of these chemicals by beekeepers has help to speed up the process, but you just can't excape the inevitable. Your contacts at Cornell can explain this to you in much greater detail, giving references also.

Joelz wrote:
one last thing when you give advice to beginning beekeepers your reciting from a book is just that, if thats all they need then why do colleges like cornell have master beekeeping programs? all beginners need to do is read a book right?

reply:
All beginners SHOULD start by reading the books. I simply quoted some text from a book that I thought would add to the discussion. By no means was it intended to be conclusive. The purpose of this Bulliten Board is to share thought and experiences, ask questions, and learn from others.

Regards,
Barry


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

hello barry quite interesting, my contacts at cornell, dont seem to have the expertese in organic beekeeping as you do, maybe we could all attend a sminar in your beeyard?? i and thousands of beekeepers would like to know your and clays weapon agianst mites. mine is drone foundation, screened bottom boards and formic acid.. oh formic acid is a natural occuring chemical, so im organic too... 

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 20, 2001).]


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

This is an email to Joelz:

Hi!

My name is Dee and I too know people at Cornell University and some don't like loudmouths know it alls that throw their ignorance around to have it fall back onto a fine institution. 

Therefore for those here Dr Nicholas W. Calderone's email address is:

[email protected]

May I suggest you forward a copy of this long exchange to the boss. He might find it highly interesting. I myself found it rather laughable.

And yes, one does not need to use chemicals in a colony of bees to keep them alive due to parasitic mite problems. This is what master beekeeping classes are for. To help those in need and one here certainly talking is in deep need.

You therefore want to talk my man. You can now talk with me on a one to one basis, item by item and be prepared to reference what you say.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

dont seem to have the expertese in organic beekeeping as you do, maybe we could all attend a sminar in your beeyard?? 

reply:

better yet you should visit Lusby Apiaries in AZ. There you can see 700 colonies of 100% dope free colonies going into there seventh year on 4.9mm top clearance cell size.

oh formic acid is a natural occuring chemical, so im organic too... 

Yes. But not at the level that you are using it. Formic burns the exoskeleton of your bees. Don't think so, handle it with bare hands for 50 colonies. This can't possible maintain the healthiest of bees. 

Clay


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

ok dee ill refrain from your style of mane calling, you are trying to market your solution to the mite problem in the u.s. and anyone who disagrees with you are ignorant loudmouths, i hope all beginning beekeeprs who read this will assume that also, you have proven beyond any doubt i have had that you are a master beekeeper and how can i purchase a bottle of your organic formula to protect my bees?? its really funny the chemicals used in mite supression are usda approved is yours?? 

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 21, 2001).]


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clayton:
*> oh formic acid is a natural occuring chemical, so im organic too... 

Yes. But not at the level that you are using it. Formic burns the exoskeleton of your bees. Don't think so, handle it with bare hands for 50 colonies. This can't possible maintain the healthiest of bees. 

Clay

*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

clay, handle the liguid form of formic acid and yes you will be burnt, bees are not handling the liquid form only the vapors...obviously, you would not handle formic acid with your bare hands, what are you trying to prove here clay that your right and im wrong if so your better sharpen your skills a bit

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 21, 2001).]


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

well dee must be ive missed something all the classes i have taken at cornell and not once has there a suggestion that your methods work?????? i have a number you can contact nick or one of his assistants at cornell if youd like, 

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 21, 2001).]


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rainesridgefarm:
*What bee problems? You just do not get it!! Build their immune system and all the problems go away. Kelp tea, pepperment oils, Organic soy flour. I am sure you will want the last word. So give it your best shot. But please work on your spelling. *<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>their immune system? to handle mites come on from reading you question obviously you are a beginner, or you wouldnt ask such silly questions, and yes im trying to work on my spelling i do this as soon as im done writing replys to foolish question


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2001)

ATTENTION!

When everyone joined this Bulletin Board, you agreed to it's rules, of which there is basically one: Be civil.

Discussions are starting to become uncivil. If you can't say it politely, don't say it. Share your opinions and agree to disagree. If cutting remarks enter in, the posts will now get deleted.

Please continue.

Administrator


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Hi Joelz, 

Reference your reply of 21Dec01, 02:48,

ok dee ill refrain from your style of mane calling, you are trying to market your solution to the mite problem in the u.s. and anyone who disagrees with you are ignorant loudmouths, i hope all beginning beekeeprs who read this will assume that also,

Reply:

First of all, I am not trying to market my solution in the USA. I am trying to market it worldwide. Herein is the difference. 

Anyone who disagrees with me is not an ignorant loudmouth, But it will be a conversaton with exact references keeping to subject matter and not comparing apples to oranges concepts. This means keeping to a natural system of beekeeping concerning foundations and bee breeding, and yes there are vast differences in behaviour between the two in the field.

You further wrote:
you have proven beyond any doubt i have had that you are a master beekeeper and how can i purchase a bottle of your organic formula to protect my bees??

Reply:
There is no organic formula for bees Joelz. You especially, if a masterbeekeeper should already know that. Field work is hard and labor intensive and short fix gimmicky just does not solve problems. It's like a bandage on an open wound, hoping it heals, when sometimes it doesn't.

The biological formula you talk about requires proper diet of honey and pollen for bees. It requires regression to natural workerbrood cell sizing, to that in effect prior to sizing upwards in search of better bees with longer tongues for larger honey crops. It also requires a change in the way bee breeding is looked at, especially getting away from inbreeding that no animal on earth naturally does long and survives on an evolutionary trail forward.

You further replied:
its really funny the chemicals used in mite supression are usda approved is yours?? 
[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 21, 2001).]

Reply:
Actually, we went to the USDA Western region in the mid 1980s, and originally were under contract with the USDA/ARS for doing much of what we have done.In the beginning we worked with the Tucson Bee Lab, but then the project stopped because no one was assigned there that could do the work required and so we continued on our own. Yes it is funny chemicals are approved, but then you must have approval to apply dopes of various kinds. As for the biological, you must ask for it under law to be allowed to do it. Then under federal law it must be given to you upon request. Then they don't have to show you how to do it. Just make the information available. The ketch is no one is told they are to ask for the biological.
Being published with Apiacta with the world beekeeping federation makes then, this material available to those asking for it. Since most don't it isn't given, nor forced.
As most want chemicals, that is taught. 

But that doesn't make biological wrong.It is something that is hard to teach in class for each region is slightly different, though basically the same. Also, it involves going back to old style beekeeping with unlimited broodnests. This is a style that used to be taught by the USDA back in the 1970s. Today, other methods unfortunately are taught. Perhaps you should bring this up and maybe get the masterbeekeepers course updated or changed to accomodate the biological side and old style beekeeping with unlimited broodnests. Evidently from what you say the course is slighted towards the petro chemical solution side. This I think is wrong, for it teaches fast quick and a road to hell and slow death for beehives, that in the long run, must make the conversion back to natural parameters to survive.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Hi Joelz

On 21Dec01, 0257pm you wrote:

well dee must be ive missed something all the classes i have taken at cornell and not once has there a suggestion that your methods work?????? i have a number you can contact nick or one of his assistants at cornell if youd like, 
[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 21, 2001).]

Reply:
I have Nicsolas' phone number in my file already, However, perhaps you should talk with him about including some of the small cell size methodology in the masterbeekeeping course to bring it up to date.

In the mean time, since you seem to be there, you are welcome to come here to learn about it first hand in the field. Then perhaps you could teach that part to others.

Right now we are about 700 colonies, but are planning expansion this year to 900-1,000 colonies.

Stuff you could learn here would be, basic biological bee breeding, regression of enlarged honeybees, foundation making, wax reclamation, colony work up on a natural system for unlimited broodnest management for crops of honey, pollen and propolis.

Don't worry, we won't charge you for hands on learning, but you will have to house and feed yourself and supply transportation. Many come now to learn from around the USA and overseas. The information is free.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Barry,

I am quite sure that all of us can understand your last remarks. It is obvious that Joelz is under stress and indeed presents himself badly and by referencing Cornell University, puts the school in a very bad light.

Beekeepers reading this bulletin board should not judge Cornell by his remarks and the administrators do need to be made aware of actions such as these and I am sure that they will.

It is indeed hard for those losing bees due to various dopes used, many times worse then the parasitic mites themselves.

As you all know, coumaphos is now no longer working in many areas. This many of us have known for 3 years or more now. But now finally it is official, by a government officials willing to stick their necks out.

There is very little control now to follow and the scene will just have to play out.Besides coumaphos contamination of combs that render the wax useless for continued use in a beehive, you also have loss of queen rearing functions which means basically, when you lose the right to requeen with supercedure you lose the natural right to carry on your hives requeening of themselves and the game ends. You cannot buy new nucs and rreplace the bees for the problem remains. Contaminated combs with organophosphates and still no way to requeen. 

When will the game end now? Well, when the bee breeders using coumaphos top out and can no longer raise queens.

In the mean time, this is a good example to show you all that many are scared. Also that hearing that doing nothing, but using natural sized combs to solve the problem is frightening to some, beyond belief.

While we cannot accept actions such as displayed here, we can pity those in distress and try to help.

Joelz needs help. Try to understand him, but be firm. Chemicals are no solution. Natural ways are and further, they have been that way since the beginning of time.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

AMEN. 

But the upside to all of this is we learned so much about the natural way of doing things. Dee are you going to be doing any group training this spring. I am sure many beekeepers would be interested in coming down and see your operation. Maybe just a two or three day course would be great. If you want to e-mail me that would be great. Also how far would you go to speak to a group of people. What cost would we have to pick up to get you to come to our Association meeting.

Thanks 
Phillip


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## Andrey (Jul 17, 2001)

My brother's loves his 4x4 Toyota truck and he always post and reads a toyota offroad forum just like we do. One day all of the people on the east coast got together for a weekend and went 4willing. Over 50 people came together and they all had a grate time. Anyway, Phillip's idea is not bad about Dee doing a group training this spring. May be we can all join?

Just a thought,

Andrey.


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

dee please , i am not losing any bees dear and cornell university does not teach a biological mite control because at this time there is no complete biological control, thats fact. what bothers me is your dialog to new bekeepers that in a year or so will face the question as why there be are gone, read any of the last test results as published in the december issue of bee journal there is no complete control for mites, except yours, my hive consitaantly produce double the pennsyvania average of 60lbs.and i understand your reasoning for censoring my replies, finally someone is questioning you.........

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 23, 2001).]


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## joelz (Dec 16, 2001)

see i appriciate your opinion, but please try and refrain from degrading my intelligence, coumaphose was given a emergency use permit by the usda, i am totally unaware of any coumphose resistant mites in the u.s. also how is comb rendered useless in a hive where coumaphose is used?
and as for requeening with supercedure cells, not the best route to requeen with.
nattural ways since the beginning of time? really at the beginning of time we didnt have small hive beetle, varroa and treaceal mites, migartory pollenators criscrossing the counrty, or packaged bees moved across the country, 
and as for me being under stress, the only stress i have is your continued point of view to beginner beekeepers that organic beekeeping is the only way of keeping bees.
organic beekeeping may work for a time by very experienced beekeepers, but for a beginner to try and master beekeeping and organics at the same time is a recepi for desaster. i stand behind my opinion as does cornell university beekeeper program, censor and edit this reply if you wish. as you have done in the past with anyone who disagrees with you

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 23, 2001).]


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2001)

Joel,

The ONLY one that has been editing your posts is the Administrator of this Bulletin Board. The ONLY thing that has been edited/deleted from your posts has been the excessive quotes of previously posted messages. I have finally changed the settings on the BB so this option is no longer available. I regret having to do this, but excessiving quoting uses up disk space, makes it harder to read through a post, and creates a thread file that takes longer to open due to its size.

Administrator


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Joelz wrote:

i am not losing any bees dear and cornell university does not teach a biological mite control because at this time there is no complete biological control, thats fact.

Reply:
Yes, I already understand that you are using various dopes to keep your bees from dying. This is understandable from previous posts.

You are mistaken, as there there is a complete biological control for field management for control of parasitic mites and secondary diseases. Fortunately it does not involve petro chemical, it just involved honest field work.

You further wrote:
what bothers me is your dialog to new bekeepers that in a year or so will face the question as why there be are gone, read any of the last test results as published in the december issue of bee journal there is no complete control for mites, except yours,

Reply:
Yes, I understand that even Cornell would like to teach beekeepers how to keep bees without usage of any dopes/crutches for parasitic mite and secondary disease control. Can you relate any, progress that has been made?

Yes, the December issue of ABJ painted a bleak future for continued chemical usage. The pesticide treatmill is hard. This is shown quite adequately here.

You further added:
my hive consitaantly produce double the pennsyvania average of 60lbs.and i understand your reasoning for censoring my replies, finally someone is questioning you.........
[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 23, 2001).]

Reply:
I myself have not edited here, and I am glad you hives are producing double the Penn. standard from what you say. Question: Do you feed artificial feeds? Additionally, do you take honey and then feed syrup, etc for going into winter?

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Joelz wrote:

see i appriciate your opinion, but please try and refrain from degrading my intelligence, coumaphose was given a emergency use permit by the usda, i am totally unaware of any coumphose resistant mites in the u.s.

Reply:
This was officially announced by government officials for the state of Florida on 30Nov01. Check here with the USDA for scope I would suggest to you.

You further wrote:
also how is comb rendered useless in a hive where coumaphose is used?

Reply:
coumaphos is an organophosphate, actually an old Nazi nerve chemical and impossible to get out of wax combs once used. It is doumented that even usage with the first treatment means that while the strips are in a colony you cannot requeen nor will it naturally requeen itself via supercedure. This should be evident also to you in reading the Dec ABJ articles posted there, besides previous written material months earlier in ABJ.

You also wrote Joelz:
and as for requeening with supercedure cells, not the best route to requeen with.

Reply:
Natural supercedure is the way bees have requeened for thousands of years without man.Why is it not best or do you equate bees to poodles nowadays for keeping, along with other house pets that need continued help?

You further wrote:
nattural ways since the beginning of time? really at the beginning of time we didnt have small hive beetle, varroa and treaceal mites, migartory pollenators criscrossing the counrty, or packaged bees moved across the country,

Reply:
THis is quite true we didn't. And if we don't stop this artificial enlarging of bees to detrimental parameters, we won't have bees. The predators and scavengers will keep coming in until man is willing to make the changes to work within a natural environment.
That could mean no migratory if they don't learn to change their ways back to within reason. Also changes are needed for package bees. But they will all learn or go out of business. Real world beekeeping is hard when only quick fix and artificial measures are taught that have no bearing upon realworld circumstances. Because of what is happening, one would think that institutions of higher learning would rise to meet the challenge! Teaching what works.......

You further wrote: 
and as for me being under stress, the only stress i have is your continued point of view to beginner beekeepers that organic beekeeping is the only way of keeping bees.
organic beekeeping may work for a time by very experienced beekeepers, but for a beginner to try and master beekeeping and organics at the same time is a recepi for desaster.

Reply:
Teaching biological beekeeping to beginners is not hard. The principles are not hard. It just takes loving bees and wanting to work with them and take a little longer time in the field. It is the older beekeepers on the pesticide junky treadmill that are hard to teach and get out of dependency habits.

You further wrote:
i stand behind my opinion as does cornell university beekeeper program, censor and edit this reply if you wish. as you have done in the past with anyone who disagrees with you
[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 23, 2001).]

Reply:
I have not edited your posts on this thread and am quite not afraid of deep thoughts nor administrators. Have been one myself for too long. Unfortunately I am schooled in the old ways of beekeeping and not into bowing down to the petro chemical Gods, nor quick fixes in life that don't work, and I am not afraid of getting my fingernails dirty working bees.

I very much look forward to continued dialogue with you and how Cornell thinks. It should be enlightening for everyone to say the least.

Perhaps we can come to an understanding for learning to help our industry and you at Cornell can upgrade your program then.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Hi Phillip and Andrey

This is something that will have to be done in the future I can see. I have conducted workshops for years off and on, both at National beekeepers meetings and Regional and various State Asociation meetings.

Right now I and my husband are booked with beekeepers coming in for the next several months to learn how to make 4.9mm foundation processing and wax rendering the old way, with review of the field (2 days here on field)for workup of bees through regression. 

But this is probably something that should be done, have a meeting for biological beekeepers set up where all can come and talk and exchange ideas. It doesn't necessarily have to be here, as we have taken our wax dipping pots and embossing rollers to Alabama and Calif in the past for workshops for hands on learning while holding workshops that lasted a few days.

As beekeepers are now springing up all over the USA using 4.9mm foundation, perhaps an event should be planned ahead and centralized. 

Right now we are expanding from 700 to 900-1,000 colonies this year to wrap up getting back to normal levels with our bees. Following that we will gain time by not having to retool 8,000 to 9,000 frames each year during the off season months. Perhaps this time could be well spent helping others in workshops once or twice a year for hands on training. After all the foundation and explaination of working up broodnests is the center life of our colonies.

Yes, this is good thought you two. I will work on getting ready for doing it once we are past this coming season. You are right, it's about time we all started doing this.

Someting to plan for

Very best regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Joel wrote:
"i am totally unaware of any coumphose resistant mites in the u.s."

ABJ - January 2002
Reduced Chemical Beekeeping 1
by Carl Wenning

"This form of biological evolution is mirrored in beekeeping by the presence of Apistan - resistant (and now some Checkmite - resistant) Varroa and Terramycin - resistant American foulbrood. Using chemicals to treat honey bee pests ultimately only forces evolution's hand, and both bees and beekeepers turn out to be the losers. The fact of the matter is that the array of chemical treatments beekeepers use today ultimately will fail."


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## Juandefuca (Mar 16, 2000)

Hi folks
Once upon a time there were scientists. 
And they proposed that the world was flat and stood on a number or pillary supports. Or they said that anything beyond the atmosphere is occupied by ether ( whatever that was or is.)Of course everybody swore by that until some other one came around and quoted a different hypothesis. And they became the gospel for the time beeing.
Further. I have not read all the posts , but from what I understand there is a vast amount of different scientifically proposed management styles. Which is the correct one ?. And since a host of scientists have researched the same goal and came to all these different conclusions , which one is correct ?
My little obs : Old comb has NOT discolered the honey.Why should honey be always light ? It is merely an immaterial OPINION expressed by some individual and subject to "feelings" or " believes".I could go on and repeat again what was already quoted. How many books were written on the bee subject ? Why ?
I have the notion that Nobody knows it all because it would be already cut and dry within the time span of the written word or the printing press.
Happy 2002
JDF


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2002)

It's not clear from the original posting whether this has been used for brood, or if only used in supers above an excluder.

If it has only been used for honey storage, it will darken very little, and it's more likely to be safe from AFB contamination. I'd use it without replacing comb, and as someone else mentioned, save the bees a lot of work. I doubt very much that there's a buildup of pathogens in super comb. If super (extracting) comb doesn't give 20 years of service, a lot of work and expense is wasted. This, of course, would not be true of supers with no excluders or faulty excluders, that let queens run upstairs.

If it has had brood cycles in it, I'd be prone to replace it. At the very least I would look at it carefully for AFB scale. If you find it, burn the comb and frames, and scorch the boxes. Every scale has billions of foulbrood spores. 

You can see a photo of scale in the comb at The Pollination Home Page. I don't have the exact reference handy now, but run a search for AFB scale, and the search engine at the bottom of the first page.

Dave Green
The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Some more current information (Bee Culture - Jan. 2002) for Joel regarding Coumaphos written by the editor of Bee Culture, Kim Fllottum:

"Now, finally, results of several studies released this year show beyond doubt that the presence of either Apistan or Checkmite+ adversely affect queens and drones. Developing queens treated with Coumaphos suffered high mortality rates, acceptance was low, larvae died, physical abnormalities were common, they weighed less, had lower ovary weights . . . and all at exposure rates below the EPA tolerance level of 100 ppm in the beeswax they were living on. Meanwhile, Fluvalinate reduced sperm counts in drones and reduced the size of queens at maturity, according to the reports."

[This message has been edited by Barry (edited January 05, 2002).]


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## jbkriebel (Jan 30, 2002)

WOW! Quite a lot to handle for someone just looking into getting started. 
I grew up on a small farm. I moved away, and have a small family of a two-year-old boy, and four year old girl. I live in SE PA, [Collegeville] and the area, in which we now live, while only 15 miles from the farm, has become the victim of the greed of the builders. People have moved into this area, which was once agrarian, and turned it into a place where the mini-vans all compete for parking spaces in the ever-expanding malls. This is certainly not a place where I want my children to grow up.

To wit-I am moving my family back to the farm. We will have our own chickens, and I plan to start back in on the organic farming I did while growing up, and up to when I went to college.

I am very interested in getting started in beekeeping, and have just now started in getting information together. I look forward to the information presented here, and appreciate that all views are welcome. Seems that human nature is the same everywhere. What we need is less human, and more nature...JK

------------------
Jonathan Kriebel
Das Sauen Öhr Farm
Green Lane, PA 
[email protected]


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi,

I am very interested in getting started in beekeeping, and have just now started in getting information together. I look forward to the information presented here, and appreciate that all views are welcome. Seems that human nature is the same everywhere. What we need is less human, and more nature...JK

reply:

Good luck in beekeeping. When do you plan to start? If you have questions just ask. As there are many good beekeepers here to get advise from.

Clay


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## Lu Klimaszewski (Nov 11, 2001)

Hi Johnathan,

The best few quid (UK pounds) I ever spent was on a beginners course with my local beekeepers club. I got lots of information and contacts for people to pester with my problems. I joined the club. We have visits to each others' apiaries (bee yards)to see how they do it.

Very recommended. Your head will be buzzing with questions, and there's no better place to get answers.

------------------
Lu


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## jbkriebel (Jan 30, 2002)

To Clayton:

I plan to start this year. However, given my propensity for researching and information gathering, that might be a bit optomistic <<G>>. There are two beekeepers in the area that I know of, and I plan to start with asking them for help and information. Hopefully they can tell me what the local clubs are in the area. Looks like I found the right place. BTW, I had a restoration business (17th Century homes), and a full shop, so I will have no trouble with the sawdust end of it. I already have the plans downloaded, but need more information before I cut any wood...JK

------------------
Jonathan Kriebel
Das Sauen Öhr Farm
Green Lane, PA 
[email protected]


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## ckinser (Feb 7, 2002)

hello all, 
I have never seen beekeepers so snippy. I think you guys should start brewing mead with your honey. It might take the edge off. As far as used equipment goes, it is risky bussiness with a disease such as american fowl brood. Its spores survive for a hundred years and unfortunately the best treatment for complete erradication is burning the hive. If you have some used equipment you can boil it in a lye bath. It will kill the spores. This is a hard project that must be done outdoors and with allot of protective clothing.It is very dangerous. Just wanted to mention it. Also to the organic beekeepers out there i salute you. I think fgmo will be the way of the future. The rules change yearly for beekeeping these days
cheers
chris


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2002)

I was wondering what you mean when you say organic. I would not think beekeeping could be organic . Would it not be hard to contain ones bees to a field with no chemicals when on the other side of the fence is a field of clover that has just been sprayed with some chemical or other. Do you really believe the bees no the difference. Cheers Ian!( I just thought I would add this because I have seen the word organic used quite a bit here.)


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi,

We are talking about organic practices as pertains to the beekeeper. No adding chems, dopes, oils, acids, ect. In general bees don't aim for chems and pesticides in the field. Mostly talking about the beekeeper directly contaminating hive products. We all know we can't control the bees. Just aiming for a high realistic ideal that is plausible. 

Clay


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## gcomeau (Sep 4, 2001)

Here we go again....


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

I shall rest and say no more......


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## tworedroseman (Jan 7, 2002)

Just discovered something interesting here in Pensacola, Fla. and I imagine it will apply in other locations: I had to park in the rear of the local doughnut shop and saw what I thought was a swarm at the dumpster. Investigated and it was bees reclaiming the sugars and other trash. A day later was driving slowly in another area of town and saw light through wings of flying bees just above the car. Stopped and discovered bees in an oak near the road. Followed their flight and sure enough they were going to a dumpster behind a "Poor Folks". Then I began to remember growing up in Western Pennsaylvania with a little necessity house out back which always had honey bees working hard behind that little house - nasty critters. Little wonder that they can make a honey crop in New York city.


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## puddle9 (Mar 6, 2002)

I am looking for a bunch of old combs for an art project i am doing. Specifically i want to sandwich them between two pieces of glass and mount them in a window cut-out of a door. The space i need to fill is about 24" square, and i would like to get combs that are fairly thin, say less than an inch. I would be willing to pay something, but i would hope to find some combs for a relatively inexpensive price. Can anyone help me???

Thanks!


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