# Need to split - can’t find queen



## Farmgirl971 (9 mo ago)

Hello - 2nd year beek and first time to split. I have a double-deep hive that is busting at the seams and I need to split — there are multiple swarm cells, queen cells and play cups. My problem is that I can’t find the queen — I have some eyesight issues and usually find the queen more by luck than anything else. Is it ok to split the swarm/queen cells to a new hive box and (presumably) leave the current queen behind in the original hive? I’m sure I’ll have a good deal of drift back as they would be in the same yard but don’t know how to handle that except to supply enough older brood that new bees emerging will orient to the new hive. Thanks in advance — feel like I’m drinking through a firehose….


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

You can just split 50/50 without looking and call it done.

OR you can shake all the bees into a new hive without looking (the queen will be shaken off).
Then about 50% of the bees will return home to their brood.
Thus, you will make a brood-less split.
You may optionally give them 1-2 frames of eggs/brood too (to the split) - to ensure they have a recovery option if the queen gets lost or damaged during the transfer.

No need to be crazy about finding the queen - not necessary.


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## cwoodar0 (Jun 13, 2021)

Just split it 50/50 then check next week for wet brood. Only one hive would have it. Then take that frame of wet brood and check it well for the queen, and if she's not on it move that one frame to the other hive as an insurance policy to make sure they get ample supplies to requeen themselves.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Put all the frames you find a swarm cell in a box at the current location. Check those frames closely to be sure you dont put the queen there.

Move the rest of the hive to a location 10 feet or more away. The foragers will go back to the old location and the cells will be raised. The queen in the new location will keep doing her thing and the swarm impulse should be gone.

You dont need to find the queen, just be sure you didn't put her in the new box.


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

If the swarm cells are capped, there may not be a Queen in there to find. If a 3-4 pound swarm issues from a hive with 60k+ bees in it, it can be difficult to see the population decrease just by looking. I’d do an even split with the frames and shake a couple of frames of bees into the half of the split that is not going to be in the original location. Don’t shake frames with Queen cells on them. Make sure each half of the split has 2-3 Queen cells and cull the rest.


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

IMO, the best way to handle this would be to shake the frames with queen cells, then put them back on top over a queen excluder. Nurse bees will cover the brood. I know not everyone has QEs, and that is the only thing I ever use them for -- splits.

Otherwise, you have some good advice here, and, like NUBE said, you may not be able to find the queen because she may have already left the colony.


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## Farmgirl971 (9 mo ago)

NUBE said:


> If the swarm cells are capped, there may not be a Queen in there to find. If a 3-4 pound swarm issues from a hive with 60k+ bees in it, it can be difficult to see the population decrease just by looking. I’d do an even split with the frames and shake a couple of frames of bees into the half of the split that is not going to be in the original location. Don’t shake frames with Queen cells on them. Make sure each half of the split has 2-3 Queen cells and cull the rest.


Fortunately, I was able to view all of the queen/swarm cells and none are charged as yet and no caps. This helps - thanks!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

lemmje said:


> IMO, the best way to handle this would be to shake the frames with queen cells, then put them back on top over a queen excluder


shakeing queen cells is often a bad idea


Farmgirl971 said:


> Fortunately, I was able to view all of the queen/swarm cells and none are charged as yet and no caps


if they are not charged, they are cups not cells, and have a different situation 

ok in your situation I would use drift to you advantage( with a fly back split )rather then fight it , and use the Doolittle method to make a queen less split with out finding your queen

1 Take 2 combs of eggs/young larva and a comb of food and shake all the bees off

2 Place the combs in the box your going to use for your split, place that box on top of your overwintered hive with a queen excluder between them

Come back the next afternoon.. the nurce bees will have gone threw the QE and will be tending the brood, and your shure your queen isn't in that box.

3 when the bees are flying hard , move the overwintered hive to a new spot, 5+feet away

4 place the new box were the old hive used to be

5 shake off one of the two combs of open brood and return it to the old hive, this doubles up on the nurce bee to brood ratio in the new split.. its not needed, but its some added insurance that the queen cells will be well fed

come back in a mounts 

all the old forage bees, the ones that cause swarming issues will return to the old spot, drawing down the overwintered hives pop by about 1/3
this split works better if you can find your queen and leave her in the new split in the old spot... but its fine either way


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Put frames for splits in mating nucs. Make sure the queen isn't on them by checking or shaking or brushing their bees into the old hive.
If a frame has a queen cell, be gentle. Don't shake it.
If it has mostly capped brood or stores, put it in a nuc.

Put open brood in 1 big box.
Put a queen excluder on the old hive and the brood box on top.
The frames in the brood box charge. They fill with nurse bees. Keep shaking them into nucs and recharging them.
Do a standard artificial swarm.


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## backyard smallcell (10 mo ago)

Just verifying for my own plan of action,
run a 50/50 for one brood box
Splitting wet cells. Honey and pollen
Separate hives, place original hive several yards away and place new hive in old location,

Check hives weekly, hive with continued wet brood has queen, 
place brushed off frames of capped brood to other hive. For two to three weeks .

(I've only run 8 frame)

Correct?


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

backyard smallcell said:


> Just verifying for my own plan of action,


There are hundreds of ways to do a split. Most find the one that works best in their locality by trial and error. If you are still in the flow just pick one and do it. 

For the most part during the flow you wont kill a hive with a botched split during flow.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Even a flow not necessary (can always feed).
What is really mandatory - ability to mate new queens OR having a mated queen handy.


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## Farmgirl971 (9 mo ago)

msl said:


> shakeing queen cells is often a bad idea
> 
> if they are not charged, they are cups not cells, and have a different situation
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the clarification on terminology. I always try to use the correct terminology but, as I said, 2nd year so I’m not 100% yet. So, good news — I’m 99% certain I found the queen. Maybe you can look at this pic and see if you agree. She was buried and really hard to see. Now, I just have to be able to find her again but, at least, I know what to look for. Additional question — regardless of whether I find her or not, if I put the frames with the cups in one box and she happens to be on one of those frames, she will kill anything that might emerge (assuming they continue the process and cap it) and the other box would go ahead and make a new queen. Or, would they continue the process and swarm (what I’m trying to prevent). Am I thinking correctly?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I think you found her!


Farmgirl971 said:


> , would they continue the process and swarm (what I’m trying to prevent)


depends on how strong the split is, if you have drawn comb, weather you leve the queen or move her, etc
locally this year there was a rash of swarm control splits swarming as they failed to remove the swarm triggers 



Farmgirl971 said:


> she will kill anything that might emerge


a virgin queen is a death machine, fat laying queen will lose almost every time if the bees allow conflict 

If you can find the queen, fly back split is my hands down favorite...
the old queen in the old location is broodless and can be given a OA treatment
the old hive in the new location will be broodless in 24 days and can get a OA treatments
mite slam dunk!


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

msl said:


> If you can find the queen, fly back split is my hands down favorite...


Mine too. The other advantage is they draw comb very fast, especially in a flow.


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