# Heard a taLL tail. Is it true?



## labradorfarms (Dec 11, 2013)

I heard a story the a few weeks back about a Bee Keeper who runs 3 deep brood boxes and requeens ever year. His hive produce about 500 pounds of honey per year per hive ... Is this BS or no?????

The population is said to be near 100.000 strong.......


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Hmmm.. I've heard of beeks up in the northern areas running 3 deep brood, but not the 500 pound crops. There are ways to get to the 200lb range doing cut down splits during heavy nectar flows, but even then you have to have all your cards drop in line to get it done. 

Would be interested in knowing who the beekeeper is though?


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

That would be around 40 gallons of honey.......Unlikely in the extreme, but if true, I'd give a lot of money for one of those queens.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

You'll hear a lot of stories like that. One of the many good things about beekeeping is that you will develope your internal BS detector pretty quickly!


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Every year producing that is a little tooo much. I think this story falls in dere with the Terrty point buck!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

What's 500lbs, about 11 medium supers?? Haven't guys showed pics with hives that size?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Tim Ives. Do a search.
Walt


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

labradorfarms said:


> Is this BS or no?????


The former, if this is claimed as an average.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Don Studinski, in his book says that they aim for 3 deep colonies, but he splits them twice a year and doesn't reveal how much his harvest yields. Some of his hives are for production and some are for breeding.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

That does sound like Tim Ives claims.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

There are always a lot of tall tales and a few true ones as well floating around. Funny thing about this business some like to exaggerate while others wouldn't dream of telling around a success story for fear they will get a bunch of bees moved in on them. So it's kind of hard to tell what to believe, I can say with absolute certainty, though, that no one gets a 500 lb. average with any regularity. A few hives here and there will make that no doubt but it requires exceptional bees in exceptional conditions. That would be be 15+ mediums per hive, if you "pull honey two times it still requires you to have around 8 mediums a hive available. Does anyone really plan for that? Lots of folks like to talk about average among just what they define as production hives which leaves lots of room for tall tales.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Tim Ives has stated that he has tried 10 supers but none of his hives had all ten filled so he uses seven medium supers, http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?294119-Too-Tall-Stacking-Supers-to-Silly-Heights . If I remember correctly Tim's hives are in an agriculture area.

I will be conducting a test run this coming year with an unlimited brood nest configuration. This past year I completed the change over of my ten hives to three deep brood nests and compiled a yearly management schedule to follow, however my goal is not 500 pounds of honey from each hive which is unrealistic in my area because it is not agricultural. I am hoping for at least 60 pounds from each hive, limited swarming, minimum management, and better wintering, if I can achieve this I will be satisfied .


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Lots of folks like to talk about average among just what they define as production hives which leaves lots of room for tall tales.


I hear this sort of statement quite often. "I got an average of 200 lbs of honey off of this hive." Seems like some people don't know what an average is, what the word average means.

If something is too hard to believe then it's probably not true. If you read it in a Newspaper article then it was probably incorrectly reported. People who write newspaper articles are not experts on what they write about and typos or notes quite often misstate what someone else said.

Some things are just a mystery. "Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see." Benjamin Franklin


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It's the 2 year average mark..... I see a deep super all year if I'm lucky sunflowers are planted nearby and need at least a double deep broodnest to pull that off. Obviously urban hives do better, I can't say what they brought in, since most of it is still on the hives, but the bees put up 3 mediums and a deep. I don't restrict my queens in any way, there was a brief late summer dearth as well, but you have to be in a hell of an area to pull 500lbs. I've seen vids of Tim and I'm still trying to figure out how to keep a colony that well populated over winter, I find most of my bees, even if fed still rather constrict to a smaller cluster for winter. Some of it has to do with mites and my waiting to treat and maybe that makes all the difference, I'll find out this year, but I'd like to know what blooms, how much, and when where people are pulling 500lbs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm skeptical.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I've been pretty danged happy when a few hives produced a little over 100 lbs each. I don't have a tall enough ladder to harvest from a 500 lb hive.










Seriously from my few years of making a little bit of honey - I've made 350 lbs from 3 hives, and I've made a similar crop with 10 hives (more or less - but you get the idea) and the second way is a LOT less work. The pictures *don't* look as cool though.

I also *think* they cap it better/quicker if you don't give them so much empty comb.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

What is so unbelievable about running 3 brood chambers. I do it all the time. I overwinter in 2 deeps. Then in the spring during the flow I add a 3rd and she lays in it. mainly the middle 5 frames. Then I super on a 4th and 5th deep then westerns. In a strong flow with 3 deeps of bee's I get 2+ deeps of honey out of it. That is the way I though it was done by all.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

There are ways to artificially jack up hive populations, 2 queen hive, or through minupulations, but swarming would really be a problem, and there would have to be tons of necter available.....I'm still waiting to see 2 full boxes of honey on a hive..lol..
David,are those 8 frame hives? and are those ventilation holes or entrances I see on the upper boxes???
Looks like your hive stands will hold the load 

==McBee7==


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

EastSideBuzz said:


> What is so unbelievable about running 3 brood chambers. I do it all the time. I overwinter in 2 deeps. Then in the spring during the flow I add a 3rd and she lays in it. mainly the middle 5 frames. Then I super on a 4th and 5th deep then westerns. In a strong flow with 3 deeps of bee's I get 2+ deeps of honey out of it. That is the way I though it was done by all.


:no:


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

McBee7 said:


> David,are those 8 frame hives? and are those ventilation holes or entrances I see on the upper boxes???
> Looks like your hive stands will hold the load
> 
> ==McBee7==


There are entrance holes in the next box above the queen excluders, and yes they are all 8 frame mediums.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

JRG13 said:


> What's 500lbs, about 11 medium supers?? Haven't guys showed pics with hives that size?


90% of our honey production is in mediums. This past year was a pretty good one and I calculated we averaged about 31 lbs. per medium box though that does include a lot of partly full stuff towards the end. 
I have run a lot of hives through the years and have seen a lot of really nice honey crops. Probably the most I have ever seen a whole yard average is around 300 lbs. and that has been a pretty rare occasion and I doubt that I have ever even had a single hive do 500 lbs. Unless it is a migratory situation with an extended season and good flows in multiple stops I would be pretty comfortable in waving the BS flag on anyone making a claim of a 500 lb. average.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'd like to see a hive that produced 500 lbs once.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Ormond Aebi* (1916 – July 2004) was an American beekeeper who was reported to have set the world's record for honey obtained from a single hive in one year, 1974, when 404 pounds ofhoney were harvested, breaking an unofficial 80 year-old record of 303 pounds held by A. I. Root. Together with his father Harry, the Aebi's wrote two books on beekeeping: _The Art and Adventure of Beekeeping_ (1975) and _Mastering the Art of Beekeeping_ (1979) (both currently out-of-print).[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP]
World record in honey production[edit]Aebi held a Guinness World Record in quantity of honey produced from a hive of bees, but many others have surpassed that record. Single colonies of bees occasionally produce some spectacular crops. This is sometimes a combination a multiple queens in a hive (see two-queen beekeeping management), excellent weather conditions, or extraordinary good luck.
In 1979, Earl Emde of Big River, Saskatchewan, had several colonies produce over six hundred pounds each,[SUP][3][/SUP] though Guinness was never employed to substantiate the production. Many other beekeepers in Canada, Australia, North Dakota, Florida, and the mid-west have seen similar results on rare occasions. However, a Mr. Rob Smith of Australia surely holds the world’s most astounding result for an apiary. According to Bill Winner, Beekeeper Services Manager, Capilano Honey Company, “We can confirm the average production of 346 kilograms (762 lbs) per hive from 460 hives. (This is almost twice the Aebi claim to fame, and it is an average from hundreds of colonies, not just one hive's unique production.) The beekeeper’s name was Bob Smith from Manjimup, Western Australia. The honey was Karri. The year was 1954.” Mr. Winner adds: “This figure is confirmed by R. Manning with a reference to a journal highlighting a box titled _World Record in Honey_ in 1954."[SUP][4][/SUP]


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

It is not unusual to get very large crops off things like alfalfa grown for seed in Canada (Alberta, I belive). A family friend started beekeeping up there, because a package of bees put on the alfalfa would easily produce at least 250 lbs of honey with no need to keep the bees over winter. Wintering bees in Edmonton, Alberta would be a real challenge, I think.

Otherwise, you would have to have a very large supply of concentrated nectar to get 500 lbs per hive, and to do so year after year that means some sort of crop that is watered in dry years I suspect. Location, location, location.....

I got about 80 lbs off my biggest hive this year, and am quite happy with that. Given a good spring I think I've figured out how to duplicate that now that I have plenty of drawn comb. I suspect I lose honey with just foundation, not because it takes so much nectar to draw it so much as the season is fairly short here and the time it takes to draw the comb reduces the amount they can store! Main flow was about 2 weeks.

Without a high concentration nectar field crop around, I'm dependent upon trees for nectar. Occasionally soybeans will give me some honey, but typically not.

Peter


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## Silverbackotter (Feb 23, 2013)

Sounds like how the University of Minnesota recommends managing langs. You split off a young colony every year and use the old one to make honey and take everything. They have a good set of books. 500 lbs is BS though.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Seems like some people don't know what an average is, what the word average means.

Seems like people are using it in different ways, even if they do know what it is. Average between all your hives? Average yield from year to year?

>I'd like to see a hive that produced 500 lbs once

Me too. It would be exciting to see ONE hive produce 500lbs once. I did have most of the hives produce 200 pounds once... but not before or since...


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

let's see..... 10 by 10 side by side, 3 foot wide hives like mr. palmer's split 10 frame double nucs. with 4 Italian queens, a 100 lb. capacity pollen sub box on top. set up across the street from a corn syrup factory with leaky pipes. and a finger and 3 toes helping the scale. round up to the nearest hundred pounds. almost believable with a lot of mead, I mean a lot of mead.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

mathesonequip said:


> let's see..... 10 by 10 side by side, 3 foot wide hives like mr. palmer's split 10 frame double nucs. with 4 Italian queens, a 100 lb. capacity pollen sub box on top. set up across the street from a corn syrup factory with leaky pipes. and a finger and 3 toes helping the scale. round up to the nearest hundred pounds. almost believable with a lot of mead, I mean a lot of mead.


I like your thinking.  At the very least it would be neat to see how that experiment turned out.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> I like your thinking.  At the very least it would be neat to see how that experiment turned out.


I don't think you would be able to see how it came out, but it would be fun.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

drlonzo said:


> Would be interested in knowing who the beekeeper is though?


Me too. It's secret or something?

Wonder why it's a secret?

Most productive beekeeper in the world don't want nobody to know?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

A friend of mine listens to the stories patiently right to the end. When the storyteller finishes he just asks him, if he can buy a ton of honey of him. For a premium price, of course. 

Most can't deliver. :shhhh:


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Matheson I like your math

Never mind the queen, I've got great queens, I would trade a lot for that forage, I can build up to accommodate but with no rain no forage.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, I guess we poked the bear with this Thread.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I could believe 100-150 pound average. This with a 3 deep broodnest and the 3rd deep being a food chamber full of stores for winter with bees that don't need feeding for winter. 500 pounds hmmm. How much would you have to back feed after striping a hive that hard. Then subtract syrup back fed from the 500 pounds = not 500 pounds. Story sounds like bs to me.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

Clayton Huestis said:


> Story sounds like bs to me.


do you mean bee-source???


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ya know, if something seems to good to be true, then more times than not it's not true. But the person being talked about has shown that he has done it. Leastwise to my satisfaction. Whatever that's worth or even necessary. Trouble is, if he wanted to, he can't defend himself because he isn't allowed to. If that's not an incorrect way of stating the situation, I'm sorry.

So maybe in the future if someone isn't a beesource participant we should be more careful calling them liars, in not exactly those terms. This same sort of thing happened w/someone else and makes things at least somewhat hurtful for them.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in our philosophy." William Shakespeare


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Mark, my experience here on Beesource is that Barry has an extraordinary amount of patience. Just being argumentative dosent get you banished, you have to break some basic rules and ignore a lot of warnings. If he has taken the step of banishment it has probably been with pretty good reason. Someone who can't defend themselves has only themselves to blame.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I didn't know anyone was named, but if we're talking the more hives the bigger the ego guy, I still never saw hives stacked tall enough to get 500lbs.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> the person being talked about has shown that he has done it.


He has? 

I don't see where anyone even said who it is?

So Sqkcrk, if you know those things, why not enlighten the rest of us. What's the secret?

If you are going to say Tim Ives, well, the information he gave a newspaper reporter who saw his operation about his honey harvest was very different to what he was claiming online.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Mark, my experience here on Beesource is that Barry has an extraordinary amount of patience. Just being argumentative dosent get you banished, you have to break some basic rules and ignore a lot of warnings. If he has taken the step of banishment it has probably been with pretty good reason. Someone who can't defend themselves has only themselves to blame.


Seems reasonable. So how should we conduct ourselves when talking about those who cannot defend themselves?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> I didn't know anyone was named, but if we're talking the more hives the bigger the ego guy, I still never saw hives stacked tall enough to get 500lbs.


I don't know why you have to put things that way. Makes it seem as though you don't like someone. And yes, he was named. Not by the OPer, but later on in this Thread.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> So Sqkcrk, if you know those things, why not enlighten the rest of us. What's the secret?


Intensive management.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> What's the secret?


People skills.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Mark, that's a direct quote from said person, I actually like it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Seems reasonable. So how should we conduct ourselves when talking about those who cannot defend themselves?


If you are talking about Tim, I guess I didn't know he wasn't allowed to post on here. If you are talking in generalities I suppose it comes down to good manners. I don't spend much time worrying about folks that have already shown they aren't capable of debating a point without getting insulting. 
Here is something I've figured out about posting on Beesource. Having the last word in a debate dosent make you right it just means you're the most persistent in talking about a subject that most readers have already made up their mind about.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

It's funny that anyone should ask his "secret". I drove quite a ways to go hear him speak about a year ago. He was quite forthcoming, detailed, and specific about what he was do8ng and why he thought it worked for him. My own impression (assuming he is being honest....an assumption I'm willing to make but I've been wrong before....if you don't believe what he says then I'm not sure why you would care what he has to say), is that he may be a little off in the why his techniques work..

Mostly though, he was very detailed.....and no one new in the room wanted to believe him, and the general assumption I think (similar to his reception online) is he was either lying about his results or not being honest about what he was doing.

It's a funny situation to be in.....people don't believe what you say, and accuse you of keeping secrets....maybe some enhanced interrogation techniques would get everyone the answer they are looking for....ive got the pasta dinner in the blender...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> Mark, that's a direct quote from said person, I actually like it.


What is a direct quote? Please be explicit.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I see no reason that 500 pound crops or averages would be so difficult. Due to all day rain here, I scanned some pictures from the '70s and 80's, Hillsborough, California. My stacks showing 300 pound plus crops. This was the pre-mite era. I'm not that great a beekeeper now, and then I knew nothing. I would throw feral swarms into boxes and stack on the supers. We did learn how to re-queen the vicious ferals with imported queens. We tried Starlines, Midnights, Weaver All Americans, Buckfasts, others. I see Brother Adam hives in some of the pictures so they were after 1978. There was no internet to learn from then, so I followed what they said to do in the books and bee journals. "Leave a deep full of honey on for a food chamber". It took quite a few years to figure out that we had a eucalyptus flow all winter and that food chamber should have been empty. I must have missed out of tons of winter honey. 
Even now, I would think if I was Michael Palmer, and pulled honey two or three times a year, I could make some 500 pound hives. It must be easily possible in high production areas.







http://s156.photobucket.com/user/odfrank/library/1970 Bees Hillsborough California?sort=3&page=1


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

jim lyon said:


> I can say with absolute certainty, though, that no one gets a 500 lb. average with any regularity.


Dont tell Rick Willams up in Canada that averaging 610# year after year after year. Funny this is Ian S. Is only getting 150 off his single hive body management. Gee who would of thought more bees per colony makes more Honey. People crack me up. 



jim lyon said:


> That would be be 15+ mediums per hive, if you "pull honey two times it still requires you to have around 8 mediums a hive available. Does anyone really plan for that?


Yes, hence my typical 3 deep 7 medium average setup well before average swarm cell start date. Otherwise all the bees won't fit and start swarming once Dandelions pop.



Clayton Huestis said:


> How much would you have to back feed after striping a hive that hard.


Zero feeding, simply dont take it all. Just take from the 7 supers. 


sqkcrk said:


> So maybe in the future if someone isn't a beesource participant we should be more careful calling them liars, in not exactly those terms.


Highly agree. So who wants too play now? 


Seen several posts of people saying they're getting 150# off single hive body management. Umm that is in a awesome Honey producing location. Single here will only put up around 40# surplus and high probability you going to need to put weight on them in fall. Indiana average is around 60ish and 99% of those are from 1.5 and DD. I'm taking my first round of Honey off before those 99% have supers placed. Gee why am I getting more Honey per colony? Guess it some kind of secret. SMH


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