# 8 frame equip vs 10 frame equip....



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Bee space -- the bees will fill anything over 3/8 inch with comb, feeders, widely spaced frames, lack of frames, even foundationless frames. It is all usable space to bees. Bee space applies to all hive designs and management types.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I "hear" you, but 8 frames in the brood nest plus the a 2 frame feeder takes up the same space as 10 frames. In the supers, the drawn 8 frames also allow for proper bee space.
Yes, it may take a while to draw the comb out in the supers, but once you have them, you have them......


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's about weight. I space seven or even six in an eight frame super. I shave the frames and put nine in an eight frame brood box. It's not about the number of frames A ten frame medium super with eight frames in it, full of honey, will weigh about 70 pounds. With ten frames in it, it will still weigh about 70 pounds. An eight frame box with 9 frames of honey in it will weigh 48 pounds. With six frames of honey in it it will weigh 48 pounds. The bees just make the combs fatter when you put less frames in it. The other issue with eight frames is that the weight you save is those last two frames the furthest from your body. That last 20 pounds is the "heaviest" as it has a lot of leverage against you.

The other issue is the the narrower box fits the winter cluster better with less food left behind.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

So it's just about weight? 

On the other issue, if the brood box is basically 8 frames (in a 10 frame box with 2 frame feeder) is that not the same as an 8 frame box w/o the feeder?


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael,
Looking at your website, you state that a 10 frame medium full of honey weighs about 60 lbs, not the 70 mentioned in this thread, so in reality, we're only talking a difference of 12lbs. Is that worth cutting down 10 frame hives to 8?
I guess that's up to each to decide...


----------



## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

12 lbs does make a difference. Especially if you are lifting above your belt. 5 pound can make a difference. a few are not to bad but more than a few and it gets to me very quickly. Seems I extract about 40# of honey from my 10 frame mediums.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Looking at your website, you state that a 10 frame medium full of honey weighs about 60 lbs, not the 70 mentioned in this thread, so in reality, we're only talking a difference of 12lbs. Is that worth cutting down 10 frame hives to 8?

It varies. It runs between 60 and 70. 60 is a perfectly good estimate but 70 is not unheard of. But that extra weight is still 16" from your body and adds far more that its weight would indicate to leverage against your back. It is the "heaviest" weight in the hive. The ones closest to your body, are the "lightest". If you don't believe it, take those two frames of honey and hold them close for a few minutes, then try holding them at arms length...


----------



## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

Ever hear of the frames that broke the bee keeper back?


----------



## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >Looking at your website, you state that a 10 frame medium full of honey weighs about 60 lbs, not the 70 mentioned in this thread, so in reality, we're only talking a difference of 12lbs. Is that worth cutting down 10 frame hives to 8?.


I would say no. But, I have a lot of friends that swear by 8 frame hives. They cut down the 10's to 8 but, then you need a new top and bottom. I am still a purist at 10 framers.


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I cut all my 10 frame mediums to 8's because of weight. My largest bee yard is on a four story apartment building rooftop which was built in 1930 so there's no elevator, just stairs. The second reason is standardization of all my equipment. As MB says, you can make up nucs in 8's and never have to make another nuc box again. I just use them to make up 6 frame medium nucs with a follower board on either side. Once the nuc grows, I just replace the follower boards with frames.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

How wide is the brood nest in an eight frame hive? In my ten frames usually the outside two on each side are pure honey with the six in the center for brood. Since we don't need winter stores at many sites I wonder if eight frame boxes might push up that honey not needed in the brood chambers up into the honey supers. Should I after 40 years add eight frame hives to my apiaries of ten and twelve frame hives?


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

With all due respect Mr. Frank, I think you should keep an open mind about these things. I know that you're a celebrity now and your fame knows no bounds but I think even you might learn something from your humble followers.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

That's why I am asking, I have never owned an eight frame hive. I find that the brood nest in my Gargantua hives is also about six frames wide, so I want to move them into double stacked eight frame deeps with regular depth frames in positions 1,2 7, & 8. That way I can extract the outer frames.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How wide is the brood nest in an eight frame hive? 

Often wall to wall. Sometimes the outside half of the outside frame is honey.


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I have two hives that have solid honey/nectar outside frames, (#1 and #8 frame) The rest have brood under a honey arch.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

All this talk about 60 and even 70 pound mediums. Really folks, if you don't allow them to plug down a nicely full medium is probably going to gross around 50 lbs., an 8 frame box of equivalent depth around 15 percent less. When you take one off you tip it ahead or back and allow a moment for the honey to stop dripping or stringing then carry it nearly upright with the majority of the weight resting on your hip (we wear canvas nail aprons to protect your clothing from the propolis) to take the strain off of your lower back. Also bear in mind that a large crop of honey in an 8 frame hive may well require you to lift down from eye level or above.


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

I don't use 8 frame equipment, but a good friend of mine started using it and I have helped with his hives a couple of times.

My personal thoughs, not even considering the weight issue, is that a bee colony fits better and more naturally in an 8 frame hive. I also read a study that indicated Russian bees (which are slow to build up) actually build up much earlier in the year in 8 frame equipment for some reason.

I think that the likely reason we have 10 frame equipment is that we have 10 fingers and like the number 10, not because that size is actually better for the bees (or us). 

I have not switched because it would result in compatibility issues with the equipment I already have. However, if I were starting out as a beekeeper, I think I'd buy 8 frame equipment. If I was more than a hobbiest with 5-10 hives, I'd work 8 frame equipment into the hive.

I would not use 8 frame mediums for the brood area though, but that's a personal preference. I like deeps for the brood area, and I checkerboard my hives, so I have one deep and then supers for everything else. The deep/medium issue is separate from the 8/10 frame question.


----------



## MrHappy (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm just starting so just wondering... Don't people take the frames out of the hive and brush off the bees before putting them in another box for transporting? Why can't you take the frames out of the 10s and put them in 5 or 8s if weight is an issue? The people that I've helped so far have been doing this. I was thinking of using a plastic box to put them in, and if I needed to wait a few weeks or so they can stay in sealed boxes.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm just starting so just wondering... Don't people take the frames out of the hive and brush off the bees before putting them in another box for transporting? Why can't you take the frames out of the 10s and put them in 5 or 8s if weight is an issue?

Harvesting is one thing. But what if you just need to get to the brood to see if its queenless? A frame at a time is too time consuming and it's intimidating to a newbee when you have to spend that much time and that much exposure of bees. But even an experienced beekeeper, I have too much to do to handle things a frame at a time. I do most of my work a box at a time rather than a frame at a time, including splits and, since I wait until it's cold or I harvest in the flow with abandonment, I seldom handle them a frame at a time in harvest either.


----------



## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

NeilV said:


> I don't use 8 frame equipment, but a good friend of mine started using it and I have helped with his hives a couple of times.
> 
> I think that the likely reason we have 10 frame equipment is that we have 10 fingers and like the number 10, not because that size is actually better for the bees (or us).


Take a look at bee math. There is a good reason that Mr. Langstroth settled on 10 frames.

One deep frame holds about 6800 cells. A good fresh queen can lay between 1500 to 1800 eggs a day. @ 1500 a day that is about 4 to 4 1/2 days to lay out a frame. so figure 4 days to lay out a frame and 21 days to hatch out then a day for the cell to be cleaned and prepped for another egg. That is 22 days to cycle a frame. Divide that 22 by 4 that gives you about 5 1/2 frames of eggs and brood. Round it up to 6 frames and that leaves 4 for pollen and honey. In an 8 frame you only have 2 frames for pollen and honey. Of course if you are running a double deep brood box, there is lots of room for honey and pollen. You can read the Beesource article here which does a much better job than I on the numbers game if you are interested.

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/how-many-eggs-can-a-queen-lay/


----------



## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

MrHappy said:


> I was thinking of using a plastic box to put them in, and if I needed to wait a few weeks or so they can stay in sealed box.
> Any thoughts?


Here in Florida if you put them in a box for a few weeks you will find that you no longer have honey frames but a Small hive beetle incubator when you open that box.

Also on the removing the frames one at a time. I do that at times. But first I remove the entire series of supers off the hive and then shake/brush the bees off the individual honey frames right back onto the top of the hive. I have found the bees settle back down on the hive rather quickly this way. You still have to protect the supers and the now beeless honey frames from other bees re-finding them prior to you taking them to the honey house. Most people that run many hives use fume boards which run all the bees from the entire super and deal with the supers as a unit. Two to four supers is about all you will want to clear by shaking/brushing. After that it just takes to long.


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

If you use a system with an unlimited brood nest (a la Mr. Wright's checkerboarding) it does not matter how wide the boxes are. They would just build a brood nest that is big enough to suit them. Then you super like crazy until you need a ladder to take off the top boxes. 

I actually think that my average 10 frame hives ignore about a frame a box much of the time, which I doubt would happen in narrower boxes. That's just based on my limited observation of 8 frame hives, but I think Michael Bush would agree based on his experience.


----------



## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

I won't disagree with that, but then if they are not using the outer 2 frames, then the extra weight of a 10 frame box is pretty much negated, even considering the leverage issue. Plus I like the empty frame on the outside give me some security against rolling any bees when the first frame is removed. Taking that first frame out of a completely full box can be a problematic at times. Even worse if they propolize it tot eh box.


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

I don't see the weight issue as being the advantage. I just suspect the size is more suited to a space bees want to use. Also, since I usually only have one deep, and it's on the bottom, I rarely need to pick up a deep. Another advantage of checkerboarding. The downside is you have more boxes to separate and remove.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are a lot of "usuallys" and "oftens" in the discussion of weight as far as how much it will weigh and how often it will be full. What I do know is when I had 10 frame deeps I "often" hurt my back. Now that I have all eight frame mediums I "never" hurt my back.


----------



## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

8 frame equipment is great for bees that overwinter in small clusters, like the carniolan bees. I've noticed that they fill the frames nicely with winter stores when they start to downsize. It also helps them staying warmer because there is less airspace around them. The weight also factors in. All my equipment is 8 frame, but the equipment at an organic farm I manage is 10 frame. The 10 frame equipment is filled with Italians, and I do think they are happier with the larger boxes. Anyway, I think it may be more of a personal preference, and I agree it is much harder to change if you already have equipment piling up.


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Most of my hives are from swarms and cutouts so I don't know what they are but I have noticed that they seem to do better since I converted to 8 frame. They never really filled out the #1 and #10 in the 10 frames which I know became drafty on my rooftop so I think
there are factors involved like that as well. I'm just happy with my 8's and it was worth all the work to cut them down. So much easier to move from one yard to another without eating a whole bottle of aspirin afterwards.


----------

