# Can the State of Florida demand kill of bees?



## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

*refer callers to a beek keeper*

I would suggest instead of taking care of the bee problems for the customer I would refer them to a beekeper that does removals. instead of removing them to sell to beekeeps. A good beekeep would be better equiped to handle the bees this is just my opinion and the way it usually handled in kansas


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

Beekeepers will not go up 50ft in a tree, 3-16 stories hanging off a building or knock down walls and recconstruct homes around here. Plus it requires patience that homeowners dont have. Never cut and dry work, different obsticules everytime.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

My suggestion would be to save the bees, send a few to Beltsville for testing, and tell the inspector you are awaiting the results. If they prove to be ahb, you will destroy them. The beltsville testing is free. Keep each swarm identified and do destroy any that test positive. Sell the others with the lab results showing they are NOT ahb.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

"I currently have keepers begging for bees across the nation and here in Pinellas Count Fl bees are up; way up."

Let me get this straight...

Pest control operators in Florida are shipping captured swarms and cutouts to other parts of the country?


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Nothing surprises me anymore....


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## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

I agree no-one should be shipping bees that could possibly be AHB without having them tested first. It's how so many invasive species get spread around. Think of the long term results, not short term profits. Iddee has the right idea in my opinion. Would you be willing to be held responsible ( pay medical bills and face a lawsuit)for what might happen if you sold someone an africanized hive???????


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Guys, guys, guys.

From his past posts, I think he is asking for advice on how to do it right. I think you are coming down on him a little hard. He came to beesource for help. That's more than most exterminators do. Let's give him some positive roads to take, not condemnation.


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## Walt McBride (Apr 4, 2004)

Iddee, excelent advice to Bugmanjr.
Walt


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## nsmith1957 (Sep 7, 2006)

berkshire bee said:


> I agree no-one should be shipping bees that could possibly be AHB without having them tested first. It's how so many invasive species get spread around. Think of the long term results, not short term profits. Iddee has the right idea in my opinion. Would you be willing to be held responsible ( pay medical bills and face a lawsuit)for what might happen if you sold someone an africanized hive???????


Just curious, do the commercial operators, that raise bees for sell across the country and who's yards are near known AHB areas, test every package they sell?


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>>>Just curious, do the commercial operators, that raise bees for sell across the country and who's yards are near known AHB areas, test every package they sell?<<<<

That would be totally useless. The queen that is shipped with a package is not the mother of the bees in the package. Add to that, most queens shipped with packages are open mated to whatever drones are in the area and shipped before there progeny is old enough to fly. Testing of these queens would be impossible.

AHB are known to swarm more than EHB and the source of swarms being unknown to the swarm catcher, Florida has come out with a law, ordinance, directive, or something that says kill all swarms. My idea was in hopes of circumventing this directive.


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

>>>Can the State of Florida demand kill of bees?
YES
Bureaucrats can made stupid laws. But once it is the law it must be applied. It sounds as if someone is taking the 'zero tolerance' approach to the spread of AHBs.

The current suggestion for beekeepers is to ‘requeen’ whenever a hive starts to show signs of AHB tendencies. However if you already have a fully developed AHB colony just requeening would not solve the problem - you have AHB males in that colony that still are capable of spreading the AHB. This is the reason you should have them tested any time there is doubt, and being in Florida there is now always doubt.

Shipping of bees across state boundaries should also only be done after inspections by the state inspectors to verify that the bee operation is safe. This has been a requirement for queen and package sales for sometime.

In short, don't ship any of thos AHBs to Virginia.


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## EKW (Feb 2, 2005)

Yes, Bugman, they can, and they SHOULD, if there is any possibility that they might be AHB. I don't think that is a stupid law at all- I am from Florida and have many friends who have had a lot of problems with AHB and if I were still down there I would not want anything to do with them. I especially don't like the idea of anyone collecting swarms which could very well contain AHB and offering them for sale to any beekeeper anywhere in the country when those beekeepers probably haven't got a clue what they might be winding up with. Besides the possibility of AHB, there are also diseases and pests which could wind up getting shipped across the country with the bees. Yes, there are some very good reasons why bee inspections exist and certain rules are in place.

By the way, until I left Florida 3 years ago, I took many calls to remove bees and a lot of the calls were from homeowners in Pinellas County. I also have beekeeper friends in and around that area who still do take calls there so I am not sure why you think that beekeepers won't do removals down there. 

I do admire your desire to salvage the bees rather than killing them, but there is a lot about bees that you do not know and you could inadvertantly wind up doing a lot more harm than good.

Not sure if this would interest you or not, but you are quite close to the Tampa Bay Beekeepers Association which meets in Seffner. Maybe you could hook up with them, learn more about bees and become a beekeeper yourself.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

Having been through all this, I must say the State is right. Many AHB swarms act docile until they grow in size. In my region, totally AHB except for our hybrids in our boxes with known linage, a good bee is a dead bee if it is not in a beeks box. Profilation of swarms just makes the problem worse. Trust me been there done that.


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

I don't care for the idea of shipping those captured swarms around the country myself, for all the mentioned reasons.. This is why i bought my bees from a northern breeder, in Mass.
Not to say, that bees from southern sources my be AHB or bring more than there fair share of pest/disease.. I know that there are very reputable southern suppliers, with healthy bees, FatBeeman comes to mind...
I just figured when i bought my first hive, a northern breeder with 30yrs experience in selective breeding would cut back on some potential problems.
Of course doing it the way Iddee mentioned certainly does make sense.


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

OK, I'll wade in on this one. It is getting a bit charged in here.

I think the voice of reason should apply here. Of course I agree that we (here in FL) should not be shipping bees out to other states that do not already have AHB.

Certainly Florida is considered infested with AHB now, so within FL I don't think it matters much. I assume most swarms are AHB and more so in the Tampa area. In fact I am pretty sure AHB infestation is the reason you are suddenly seeing so many more beehives than previously. The AHB swarms more often and is successful in more places than EHB ever were.

Even if I thought most swarms were AHB that does not mean I advocate their wholesale slaughter. It just means that after removal they should be requeened with known stock.

As for what does the FL law allow. Beeing that I live in FL I have read up on this a bit. It by no means makes me an expert though. First off I have read that the FL Dept. of Agriculture (FlDAg) has published a "Beekeeping Best Practices" booklet. One thing I remember in there was to requeen suspected AHB hives with known EHB stock.

In another case I had read about a beekeeper was suspected of having AHB and the FlDAg had demanded the beekeeper either A) destroy the hives, or B) requeen with know stock. The beekeeper was required to comply with the order within 30 days or the FlDAg would destroy the hives.

These requirements are reasonable. One could capture all the swarms you want. Shake them through a queen excluder and kill all the drones and queen(s) and then combine them with another hive that has a queen of good stock. One could build some very large hives this way and with an abundance of workers, probably would make larger than usual honey reserves too.

I know if I could get the bees for free, I would accept as many as I could get this way, and I would combine them with known stock (as stated above). My personal problem is the drive over to Pinellas and back. It is 200 miles RT for me so at $.50 a mile that is $100 for the bees. I can split or buy colonies for near that price including the equipment, so it is not cost effective for me to buy the bees from thebugman AND have to pay the time and cost to drive over and get them. I certainly would accept them if they were delivered though.

thebugmanjr wanted advice on how to do it. I'd factor relocation costs into the price I quote the customer. It probably will cost more to save a hive than it would to exterminate them. If the customer is willing to pay, then as always the customer is always right. Take his money and provide the service he asked for.

The "Beekeeping Best Practices" also states that one should not collect swarms, but that is because they don't want to spread the AHB genes any more than it already is happening. If you are requeening then you are adhering to the intention of the Fl laws and it is a only a matter of the details now. I think if you are responsible and do it right (I think) a judge would have a hard time punishing you for adherence to the intention of the law, but not the EXACT words.

So now it is up to you.


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## EKW (Feb 2, 2005)

If you REALLY want to know what your state laws are, you should read the statutes rather than relying on a bunch of un- or under-informed beekeepers, most of whom do not even reside in the state. Here is a link for Florida apiary laws-

http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/onestop/plt/apiaryinsp.html

Halfway down the page there are two links- click on the first of the two for current regulations.

Troy, if I were a judge and Bugman were brought before me on charges of violating the apiary laws by shipping uninspected, feral colonies out of the state, I'd throw the book at him!!! It's all well and good to say "just requeen them", but requeening isn't a given- the AHB's are much more difficult to requeen with a queen of European origin than you might be aware. If it were all that easy, then all the states along the Southern tier and the West Coast could have requeened all the AHB colonies in their states and they would have eradicated them by now. 

There is a reason these laws have been implemented. Please follow the rules and regulations. I don't see what the big deal is- if you simply printed out the relevant information from the apiary website and explain to your clients WHY the laws exist, I am sure that they would be happy to have you comply. My guess is that most, if not all of them, are more aware of the CCD problems than they are of the AHB problems and mistakenly think that they are helping by asking you to remove the bees live rather than killing them. You simply need to educate them as to why that is not desireable. 

Frankly, you guys in Florida have an excellent apiary inspection program, and you have some really talented entomologists/beekeepers working on your behalf and you should be grateful for that and do what you can to help, rather than hinder, their efforts.


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## ooptec (Jul 16, 2007)

*oh sure*

{I think if you are responsible and do it right (I think) a judge would have a hard time punishing you for adherence to the intention of the law, but not the EXACT words.)

Are you serious, a judge would have a hard time sentancing y'all for less than 25 to life as that seems to be the common sentence for any of y'alls 'wars on ......"

With deepest respect lol

peter


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

EKW - I specifically said that shipping bees out of state would be a bad idea.

ooptec - what are you trying to say?


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## aidah (May 29, 2007)

I believe Troy is right. Since "Life will always find a way." The AHB's are here to stay one way or another. They will mate and reproduce and carry on. We as a group have a responsibility to cope the best way possible with this situation. We test, re queen, and destroy what we are sure will cause a problem. There are bees out there in swarms that are calm, Good bees with genes that we could certainly benefit from. Lots of them have survived without chemicals and dusting's and all the crud we bombard them with.


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

*Bees for profit or humanity on this site?*

Are bee people mad at the world? [edit] First, knowone is selling bees to other cities let alone states, the bees so far ( 12 out of 350 plus killed) have been kept by a local hobbiest. Maybe I need to talk to people who want to help on a global level and save the stickiness that bonds us all, pissed off or not. Thanks for all the views and [edit]!!!!!!


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

*And to all who think man can stop AHB now .....*

You Need Jesus !!!!


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>>>Thanks for all the views and only Moron comments!!!!!!<<<<

I don't think my comments were moronic, and as for the others that were in a biting mood, maybe it is the full moon.
Give them a few days for the signs to change and maybe they will reread your posts and understand your true questions.

Personally, I hope you find a solution for your problem and can save the ehb while fighting to reduce the spread of ahb.


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

*Sorry for losing cool didnt expect remarks from..*

the same people emailing me to get my bees a month ago. Maybe you guys havent read recent studies that show if colapse of the ehb does happen, ahb will possibly do a more effecient job without the traditional backwoods bee keeping unfortunatly. Only 2 very aggresive hives have I came across here, and one of those was in a different county. This mass hesteria on AHB is created by ignorance and media not the public who I deal with (100s of people daily). Yes there has been public record of Violent Attacks, but this is nothing new, just critized more here now. Thanks to this site I have a deeper resect for the worried, confused and the blaming.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

thebugmanjr said:


> However now a state inspector for Dept of Agriculture demands that I no longer save swarms and colonies of nonaggresive bees.


Mind letting us know who this is?

- Barry


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

There was no profanity in above, why the edit?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

thebugmanjr said:


> There was no profanity in above, why the edit?


Around here, the use of #$&%*, whether preceded by a letter or not, is still considered profanity as that was the poster's intent.

- Barry


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

ekw sezs:
Troy, if I were a judge and Bugman were brought before me on charges of violating the apiary laws by shipping uninspected, feral colonies out of the state

tecumseh replies:
the transportation of ALL livestock across state lines requires a health certificate and a permit. beyond the ahb thingee there are about 16 ka-zillion diseases that can be associated with the honeybee which is what these kind of regulations are designed to limit. 

in addition it would be good to refresh everyone's memory that a great many of the diseases and associated problems (like the most recent small hive beetle) find their entry into the us via florida (which in my mind is an unavoidable by product of free trade).

total control of these kinds of problems are undoable/unworkable. there is some advantage to slowing the advance of a new introduced pest/disease around the point of entry since this allow the host to adapt (given enough time) to the newly introduced species/disease.

like someone else suggested (possible ekw) the people of florida should recognize what a pool of talent they have in their state apiary inspection/entomology service... 

go gators...


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

I don't see how killing random swarms around Tampa is going to stop the spread of AHB. I guess it might make the public think the state is doing "something" about the spread of AHB?????????

Edit: Note: my statement in no way supports the idiotic things thebugmanjr is saying.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

My packages had Florida queens in them this year, Texas and California are major queen producers...


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I forwarded a link to this thread to Jerry Hayes, chief of the Apiary Section of Florida's Department of Agriculture. Think of that as you will. Personally I feel this is a very serious issue and the tone of the original post gave me a very uneasy feeling. Mr Hayes was quick to respond and to point out the innaccuracies in Bug Man's knowledge. Here is Mr. Hayes' response:


It would always be nice if the folks who are so quick to post stuff would actually do some due diligence to see if what they are posting is correct. I do not know who Mr. Bug Man Jr is but he is inaccurate.

Because the feral environment in Florida is being filled with AHB and as a result we have lost a 900 lb horse, 9 dogs, goats , sheep and have had dozens of people seek emergency medical attention because of stinging incidents with AHB the recommendation from my office is and you can quote me," any feral honey bee not associated with or managed by a registered Florida Beekeeper should be considered for eradication". There have been two more human fatalities in Texas from AHB in the last few months. My job is to prevent or delay that in Florida for as long as possible. The other part of my job is to protect the Florida Beekeeping Industry so that in our growing population of residents and tourists beekeeping is still a viable part time or full time activity. To that end we have in place voluntary Best Management Practices (BMP's) so that we can partner with the beekeeper to maintain healthy, active and manageable honey bee colonies that are not a hazard to the beekeeper, his neighbors, or tourists or guests. Do we need more honey bees for pollination of course we do. Do we need more dangerous feral AHB colonies and not gentle managed colonies more than protecting the average citizen who thinks beekeeping is a dangerous hobby anyway? We have approx. 1000 beekeepers in the State of Florida. We have approx 18 million others who are not beekeepers in the State. If the other 17, 999,000 decide that beekeepers are part of the problem and not part of the solution I know exactly who will win this one. Beekeepers will be zoned and ordinanced out of beekeeping and out of existence. This will open up an even bigger niche in the environment for AHB to dominate with out the competition in mating that we need for some degree of genetic dilution by gentle colonies

Can I demand eradication? Absolutely not. Can we encourage eradication of feral defensive and aggressive bees, yes we can. If someone does not have the prudence or empathy to want to protect himself or his neighbor then there is nothing I can do at my level. If someone is stung and sent to the Hospital and or killed at some point in time and there was a property owner who did not decide to show normal prudence and follow suggestions to contact a PCO for eradication then I am sure that they will be liable and be invited to defend their action in a court of law.

Thank you for the heads up. Feel free to post my statement if you think it may be helpful.



I have copied Mr. Bug Man Jr. on this so he can contact me directly in the future. Jerry Hayes


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

This is the smartest comment I have heard yet on this matter. We cant stop the bees evolution, only try to educate and make aware, that there are many alternatives to traditional thinking when it comes to "taming of gods wild creature". The hype that was created by the media for KILLER BEES and now the hype of CCD, what is one to think when a swarm shows up on their property? Call a keeper or call the killer? Who is right? AHB is going to be the majority regardless of AHB task forces nation wide. 
PS stop sending snowbirds with Bedbugs too please.


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

Wow, I stand corrected and had know idea that the people that I deal with on a daily basis were at such of a threat or serious harm. Wow, everyone exept the experts, wants them relocated, and or intigrated with current depleated stocks. Im going to kill them all as I have been doing for years and just assume Im helping mankind. I have deep respect for your work Mr Hayes; and I appologize again for my lack of Scientific proof that bees here, could benifit places where bees are getting extinct. Born Again Killer says Good Bye!


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

One last thing to add to this, has the beekeepers also been told to destroy the hives or swarms they retrive for customers in Florida? They certaintly havent had this type of critzizim Im sure.


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

*Ask those that know...*

[This will open up an even bigger niche in the environment for AHB to dominate with out the competition in mating that we need for some degree of genetic dilution by gentle colonies]

Amen Jerry Hayes!!!!

[...any feral honey bee not associated with or managed by a registered Florida Beekeeper should be considered for eradication".]

And there's the answer to the question that started this:
If the bees are a nucience that jepardizes public health, you can be forced to kill them. 
If you manage them, and they are not threat, and its your livelihood, no they can not make you kill them. 

I love how one person that is the authority come outs and kills six pages of speculation on these boards. 

-Jeff


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

Quick Facts- Only One Report Of Death Resulting From Bees, All Bees, In Florida By Mid 2005. This Death Wasnt Even A Person, Livestock. C/o Uf
24 People Since 1990 Have Been Killed By Bees In Us Since The Ahb Hype.
243 People Died In 2000 Due To Bathtub Related Injuries. Why The Ahb Hype?


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

I agree why all the hype?

Your original question was answered clearly by the head apiarist of the state of Fl. NO he cannot demand that they be killed (but he would prefer it that way.)

He advocates a responsible position designed to minimize the spread of the AHB. The simple solution is of course to kill them all, but one can be responsible without killing them as well. Not moving them out of state and requeening problem hives is also a responsible position.


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## joekurm (Sep 23, 2007)

So are you saying that the lab in MD will let me know if the bees are ahb? I have Buckfast bees, the queens are from R Weaver, in TX, and are pretty agressive. My friend has Italians and Buckfast on a double hive stand. If he hits the Italian hive, the Buckfast come out, not the Italians. He swears that they are ahb.


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## Erik T (May 22, 2007)

joekurm said:


> So are you saying that the lab in MD will let me know if the bees are ahb? I have Buckfast bees, the queens are from R Weaver, in TX, and are pretty agressive. My friend has Italians and Buckfast on a double hive stand. If he hits the Italian hive, the Buckfast come out, not the Italians. He swears that they are ahb.


Supposedly MD will test them.

This is not the first time I've heard about the evil little Buckfasts from Texas. Even Michael Bush had problems with them. I'm guessing that those Buckfasts probably have some amount of african in them. 

I've heard from a beek up in Michigan that has some All-Americans that seem to be straight from hell. He tells me these buggers will attack en masse from 100 yards out unprovoked. That's the only kind of bees he's ever kept and thinks that's normal behavior. He doesn't believe me when I tell him I work my Russian girls wearing shorts and a t-shirt. 

Shipping untested bees out of an AHB area is a really bad idea.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

the junior bug man sezs:
One last thing to add to this, has the beekeepers also been told to destroy the hives or swarms they retrive for customers in Florida?

tecumseh replies:
to answer your question quite directly.... I take a sample (about 50 dead workers in sandwich bag) of all feral hive and swarms to the bee lab for identification. since I do know that my hives will be around people (most of whom I like very much) I would rather KNOW than specualte in regards to this hazard.

quite evidently you have no experience on how difficult (and becoming more so) acquiring locations are in places like central or south florida (and also along the texas gulf coast)... if you did then you might appreciate why limiting liability and bad publicity is more important than saving a random swarm here or there....

having said that... I do appreciate your sympathies.

erik t sezs:
Shipping untested bees out of an AHB area is a really bad idea.

tecumseh suggest:
reread iddee prior post as to why this is not a doable or relevant idea. futhermore given that migratory beekeeper ARE moving bees from one coast to the other there is NO SUCH THING as a afb free area.

ps...your friend might also acquire some benefit by simply placing the hives on seperate stands.


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## Erik T (May 22, 2007)

tecumseh said:


> ...
> erik t sezs:
> Shipping untested bees out of an AHB area is a really bad idea.
> 
> ...


I understand that it probably isn't doable. Irregardless, I still believe it's a bad idea. Quarantine is the only effective solution to help prevent the spread of diseases and pests. Had quarantines been enacted, we probably wouldn't have seen t-mites, varroa, and n. cerana, spread across the entire NA content and world. Yes, it would suck for migratory beeks and farmers, but thems the breaks. 

Someone in Michigan wants me to send him some of my Russians. I won't do it because I have SHB problems. I do not want to be responsible for spreading these vile little creatures around.

The Michigan beeks All-Americans are on seperate stands. As I said, they attack on sight, unprovoked.


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

All this has made one thing clear; I feel real bad for the American Mollano, and have mixed feelings on playing god with genetic testing for the benifit of a more master race of bees. If we always do, what we have always done..earth will be stung ! New open minded views on how killer is AHB; and new techniques to revamp the depleated stock c/o of imidacloprid and its CCD.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

Erik T said:


> Supposedly MD will test them.
> 
> This is not the first time I've heard about the evil little Buckfasts from Texas. Even Michael Bush had problems with them. I'm guessing that those Buckfasts probably have some amount of african in them.
> 
> ...


Erik T,

A significant portion of my hives are bees from the Weavers. I keep All-Americans, Buckfast and BeeSmart. I work them all in shorts and t-shirt. The point here is that you can have a "hot" hive no matter the source or race. I do a lot of feral cutouts here in Texas where the experts claim that at least 40% of our feral population is AHB. To date my experience has been 1 in 20 feral hives are somewhat hot and 1 in 20 are extremely gentle, the rest lie somewhere between the two. I have come to the conclusion that "hot hive" does not necessarily equal AHB and "gentle hive" does not necessarily equal EHB. I have decided that the most prudent approach is to just keep my bees and re-queen or destroy those that don't have the desired traits and not really worry about the "AHB" problem so much. It has become abundantly apparent to me that the AHB don't respect any county or state lines and most of us will eventually be dealing with them as the dominant feral population. As a result it will be a struggle to keep their genetics out of our managed hives. Whether this will be a good or bad thing for us, time will only tell.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

Removed duplicate post


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## Erik T (May 22, 2007)

Gene,

I don't necessarily disagree with you. My concern is shipping bees around the US could be bringing AFB to areas that are free from them today.

I did say I was guessing about the buckfasts carrying AFB genes. I do know the Weaver's area is pretty darn close to AFB territory.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

Erik T said:


> Gene,
> 
> I don't necessarily disagree with you. My concern is shipping bees around the US could be bringing AFB to areas that are free from them today.
> 
> I did say I was guessing about the buckfasts carrying AFB genes. I do know the Weaver's area is pretty darn close to AFB territory.


I do hope you mean AHB (Africanized Honey Bees) as apposed to AFB (American Foul Brood) ;^)

The Weavers are more than pretty darn close to AHB territory, they are surrounded by it. For all practical purposes the entire state of Texas is considered Africanized. That is why the state lifted the quarantine on moving bees from "Africanized" counties to "Non-Africanized" counties. They now consider the "Non-Africanized" counties to be merely "undetected". The quarantine was totally non-effective in controlling their spread across Texas and IMHO it will be equally non-effective in keeping them out of most of the rest of the US. I believe the Weavers use instrumentally inseminated breeder queens and drone mothers and practice "Drone Saturation" to produce non-AHB open mated queens. This type of scenario should be pretty safe even if there is a small percentage of AHB drones contributing to the drone pool, since it is the combination of an AHB queen mother mated to a drone from an AHB drone mother that typically result in the highly aggressive trait surfacing. The Buckfast being a hybrid also have been known to produce aggressive bees from subsequent generations of similar type matings. I think that all beekeepers in the US are going to have to realize that keeping a closer watch on our queens is going to be a "fact of life" in the future of American beekeeping. My plans for now are to keep queens of "known genetics" in my hives by re-queening fairly often with queens purchased from reputable breeders. Eventually I plan to take the instrumental insemination class and start producing my own queens as I feel this is probably the safest/best method of keeping out the undesirable AHB genes (or any undesirable traits for that matter).


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

eric t sezs:
I understand that it probably isn't doable. Irregardless, I still believe it's a bad idea. Quarantine is the only effective solution to help prevent the spread of diseases and pests. Had quarantines been enacted, we probably wouldn't have seen t-mites, varroa, and n. cerana, spread across the entire NA content and world. Yes, it would suck for migratory beeks and farmers, but thems the breaks. 

tecumseh replies:
well this strategy certain has not worked in the past eric t... and each and ever incident when the disease and problems you suggested directly were first introduced a guarantime was issued and within a fairly short time the quarantine was lifted because it be quite evident that only with a constantly moving quarantime line could you ASSUME the strategy was effective. life does not honor an arbitrary line in the sand drawn by man.

although I do understand your concern about not being the person who personally brought the shb to michigan, I would suggest that the shb is here (in the us of a) and as beekeepers we are just going to have to deal with it... much like wax moths and afb.

gene weitzel states:
To date my experience has been 1 in 20 feral hives are somewhat hot and 1 in 20 are extremely gentle, the rest lie somewhere between the two.

tecumseh replies:
I take a lot of samples to the bee lab here in college station... about the same number (5%) turns out to be some mix of european and african blood. it seems to me the africanized samples tend to be geographically clustered. 

then gene weitzel sezs:
A significant portion of my hives are bees from the Weavers. I keep All-Americans, Buckfast and BeeSmart. I work them all in shorts and t-shirt. The point here is that you can have a "hot" hive no matter the source or race.

tecumseh suggest:
I am not certain here if gene is speaking of R weaver (previously mentioned) or B weaver... I would suggest to you quite frankly that the two weavers products are not equivalent, so please don't confuse the two. the other consideration is that a great number of new queen will be superseceded early in year one, so oftentime quite quickly the queen in a new hive is actually an F2 cross of the II queen mother (and there is more than a bit of evidence to suggest these F2 can be quite feisty).


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

*my 2 cents worth again*



thebugmanjr said:


> One last thing to add to this, has the beekeepers also been told to destroy the hives or swarms they retrive for customers in Florida? They certaintly havent had this type of critzizim Im sure.


 
IMO beekeepers have to be more careful about there bees especially when capturing swarms they will be the ones responsible for them once they are housed in there little white boxes. more than likely this is why they are not catching the flack you are. if they place the bees in an area that is populated and someone is attacked there is liability issues. has with you it looks like all you are after is to be a middleman to broker bees to make a buck and you in reality could careless on the welfare of the bees. This could be proven if ****roaches where kept by keepers willing to pay would you quit spraying them and broker them. probably so but there is no market for a ****roach so you give them the death sentence and dont think twice about it. I said it in an earlier post and I am going to say it again exterminators need to refer bee calls to beekeepers this is the way it is done in our area and we have a good working reationship with the exterminators they are not after the bee money but instead are out to help the bees.


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## mgmoore7 (Jul 6, 2007)

When I had my inpsection done, last month, I volunteered to sign up for the Africanized Bee Management program. Part of this program is submitting bees for testing. The inspector collects a sample of about 100 bees. I just got my letter yesterday and they said that after testing there is a high probability that my bees are Africanized. The letter requested that I requeen and notify them in writing.

I want to mention, that this was a VOLUNTARY program. It is not required. I actually already requeened my hive as they went queenless.

I have read alot of this thread and have read alot about Africanized bees. 

For me, if my hives were to become hot and possibly stung someone nearby (my hives are within 10 feet of 3 neighbors and 50 feet from several more), it is likely that I would not be able to keep my bees in my backyard as the HOA would do everything it can to stop me. Also, in this sue happy world, who knows what someone would do. Now, if someone gets stung and I have proof they are not africanized and have been following their management best practices, the state will be on my side and help in whatever way they can. My best course of action though is to keep European bees.

This also, as discussed earlier helps to put more European drones in the area which helps to fight africanized bees too.


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

*Wow finialy some understanding..*

They say that AHB is the norm here and I deal with every type of hive you can imagine for 12 years here, and with, the real killer. yellow jackets too. My dad/boss native killer for 37 years .The only change is here in Pinellas County there is more activity than before. The colonys are just as defensive as they were 12 years ago just more plentiful. We have not had a freeze here in many years, we have not been affected by the CCD near cental florida orange groves, and bees like snowbirds, want to stay here year round now and not have to produce 35lbs of honey to see them thru the winter. I was worried what was to come out of all this by the responses I first got, but please understand, the folks willing to drive from Montana and 10 other states above the tropics, to get Florida bees, I have told to buzz off because of State reccomendations that no bees are to leave without genetic testing to save mankind!


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

10 years ago and beyond, the dumb spray tech was never asked by his customers (potential) if I am/could relocate the nonthreating creature that is going extinct according to the media. It was kill them all to the cheapiest bidder. Now; people are begining to realize, the role insects play here on Earth. Why should a bugman have a consious for mankind is what some riverrats keep asking me? And if aint broke to the point that it dont work, dont fix it. Yehaw!


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

*I love a good debate*



thebugmanjr said:


> Why should a bugman have a consious for mankind is what some riverrats keep asking me? And if aint broke to the point that it dont work, dont fix it. Yehaw!


nowhere in my posts has the above been mentioned. you should consider getting out of the exterminator business and become a cub reporter or politician since you are good at twisting the truth. all I have pointed out is I believe you are trying to be a middle man or bee broker for financial gain. you could actually care less about the bees how many of the swarms or bees have you given away after beeing payed to take them how many hives do you care for other than the swarms you are selling from what I gather none if there wasnt a market for bees you would be spraying them just like the other bugs you are called upon to exterminate. I have simply made the suggestion you pass on the contact information of a repuatable beekeeper in the clients area that could handle the bees more effectively this would be best for all involved including the bees. has for the if it aint broke comment I would say something is broke or you wouldnt be crying on this board about being shut down by the state from trying to make a buck while possibly compromising the saftey of the public. May I suggest wearing a respirator when spraying chemicals in the future I think the fumes are getting to you


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## AllFloridaBee (Sep 25, 2007)

thebugmanjr said:


> 10 years ago and beyond, the dumb spray tech was never asked by his customers (potential) if I am/could relocate the nonthreating creature that is going extinct according to the media. It was kill them all to the cheapiest bidder. Now; people are begining to realize, the role insects play here on Earth. Why should a bugman have a consious for mankind is what some riverrats keep asking me? And if aint broke to the point that it dont work, dont fix it. Yehaw!



Are you saying that AHB are not threatening???? This attack victim would probably disagree:

Man survives 1600 bee stings LInky


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

So what your saying is that history never tells of bee stinging incidents and that the Americas are in grave danger? Please read death statistics from the US census dept online and you tell me how many other creatures are responsible for death to Americans. If we could combat lightning, mosiquitos, alligators, snakes, spiders, and those pesky cars, we would surly help mankind more than killing bees in the wild. I think we need to start checking human genes and weed out all the aggresive that defend their homes with force. Oh, that would stop the war?!


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

That was some amazing footage that impacted my life forever, thanks floridabeekiller for opening my eyes. Wow I had no idea that if you disturb a colony of bees they might attack, even in the city. They couldnt be just misplaced looking for a tree , and no way were they there first before the complex was built.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Bugman, when you started your posts, I was on your side completely. I know you got a lot of flack from some, but to stoop to their level is not the proper way to reply. Back up and just relay the facts and your plans for the bees and leave the nastiness to the lesser of the crowd. Then I can go back to supporting you and trying to save the bees.


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

Im sorry but that footage from the news, with helicopters, deplicting a OJ crime scene is what I am trying to stop. The bees are in a hard place in history right now, the public should know that bees are preety importaint, not wild african killers.
RUUNNN FOOORRRR YYYYOUUUR LIIIIIVVVEEESSS I see a beeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OHH BUT I THOUGHT THEY WERE EXTINCT!!!!


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## huggy (Jun 23, 2007)

Just my thoughts:

- In a global economy, quaratining only works in the short term. Eventually a few bees or a feral hive would have found its way somewhere it shouldn't be in a shipment of whatever. Then they infect the local feral population, and off we go. SO now, it's not IF you are going tgo see AHB (or CCD, or whatever new disease or pest comes along) - it's WHEN. We northerners are no exception - for NOW, they don't overwinter in harsher climates, but that will change.

- AHB is nature's answer to the more agressive world bees now live in. Man helped to create that world. Ain't no turning back. But guess what? AHB also produce honey and wax, etc.

- No one likes the steps that have to be taken to insure "commercial interests" are protected at the expense of all. For all you south Floridians, tell everyone about the cirtus canker eradication program... how they cut down healthy backyard trees "in case" they get infected in areas that are near commercial growers or infected trees... How they keep having to figure out that the canker moves in ways they never thought... and how a hurricane is probably the best way it sweeps acrosss the entire state... and oh yeah, the only problem with the canker is that is makes for ugly looking citrus and eventually destroys the tree more quickly than man does. The fruit is actually fine to eat. But what about the Florida citrus market?

I'm not saying we shouldn't take what precautions we can. I believe trying to slow things down is a good idea, but at what cost? I think Bugman's intentions are good - he's trying to work with his customers and do what they want. The media isn't very helpful in most instances with their inaccurate reporting of only a piece of the picture. State and sometimes Federal laws are also passed in similar fashions, without considering all the facts. Bugman, you just need to foillow the rules of the states(s) you are dealing in. In some cases confirmed AHB bees will need to be destroyed. In other cases, you may be able to relocate them. Costs are what dictate most issues in commercial situations (testing to see if a hive is AHB, for example), so do what you can - just make sure you are telling people what's going on so they can make informed decisions, and that you are acting with integrity.


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

The bees and myself want to give you a huggy !
Thanx for the nectar and comb support; and long live the queen !!
These thoughts of from huggy should be a thread 4 all 2 see.


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## AllFloridaBee (Sep 25, 2007)

thebugmanjr said:


> That was some amazing footage that impacted my life forever, thanks floridabeekiller for opening my eyes. Wow I had no idea that if you disturb a colony of bees they might attack, even in the city. They couldnt be just misplaced looking for a tree , and no way were they there first before the complex was built.



The man was walking back from dropping off his laundry, along a path he probably has taken many times before and he gets walloped with many stings. He didn't disturb the bees, yet it sounds like you blame him for living in a complex that was built where there might have been a preexisting bee population. Wow, that's pretty righteous stuff. 

Face it, AHB ARE a threat. Certainly not as much as some sensationalized media accounts, but don't paint a idealized gentle italian race picture either. I don't know about your AHB experiences, but we've seen VERY defensive AHB colonies. I shudder to think what would happen to someone without a bee suit when they encounter such colonies.


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## thebugmanjr (Sep 1, 2007)

Im not a bee advocate but I wish I could be. See most, If not all bees are not native to my county here in Florida and my company has always made our customers aware of that. All aspects of beekeeping is also outlawed in Pinellas County as well. So hence ends the debate, of me and or, local beekeepers from saving swarms or colonies from my neck of the beaches. There is now more hybrid colonies here than ever before, alot I have seen freestanding and @ head level recently, causing a more serious threat to people now. Twice this summer I had to quarintine neighborhoods, because of heavy winds blowing down massive hives and they chased everyone, people, police, and even I got 2 to the lip and looked like the nutty proffesor on one job. More stings this year than ever and I swear they know I killed their cousin down the street now. Swarming season is now never ending and it looks as if our summers are as well. The buzz is louder than their bite so far with the public and I prey it stays that way
The job we do is different (keeping and killin), but Im sure glad this bugman finialy found his myspace.com where he can ramble on about his job that he shouldnt take home!!! 

If the world outside looks dirty..
clean your mirrored glass!!


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