# My 21 deep frame observation hive



## Richinbama

Man , that looks huge!!! But, very nice.


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## odfrank

Will bees make use of all of it?


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## chorrylan

Wow that's an impressive work of art!

I hope you've included a mechanism to close the screened bottom board or vent it outside.
From experience... an observation hive with ventilation into your room/house can be pretty overpowering in a heavy nectar flow when your room starts to resemble a honey scented sauna.


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## broncorm

Wow very nice. That’s what my wife would like me to make. We a 8 frame that I made and wife wants me to expand on it and cover the entire wall. 
Could you post more pictures?


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## Kcnc1

Ffrt,

That’s impressive. Can we get pics head on?


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## ffrtsaxk

I will have to think about how to take pictures from other angles. The OH is located in a narrow dormer window. If I stand right beside it, I will be too close to get the whole thing in the shot. The screened bottom board is over the area for the oil tray which is closed off. The bees should use it all and I can section parts off until there are enough bees to fill it.


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## odfrank

My prediction:
Because the combs are so wide spread and there is not the usual cohesive brood chamber with side by side combs, a colony will never cover more than half of it. Let me know when I am wrong or right.


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## brushwoodnursery

Awesome! I'd love to see design pics of the individual isolation technique. Also, may i use the image in lectures about OHs? I'd credit you y name for the design if you'd like.


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## ffrtsaxk

odfrank said:


> My prediction:
> Because the combs are so wide spread and there is not the usual cohesive brood chamber with side by side combs, a colony will never cover more than half of it. Let me know when I am wrong or right.


Odfrank, it may turn out that you are right about the bees not covering more than half of it. I wondered about that when I was planning it. But, my backup plan is to simply to insert the dividers either horizontally or vertically and add another entrance or 2 and have more than one colony housed in it. I did, however, see an observation hive that had frames stacked on top of each other and running lengthwise that the bees used just fine, so I’m hoping this works. This is way bigger than that one though.


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## ffrtsaxk

brushwoodnursery said:


> Awesome! I'd love to see design pics of the individual isolation technique. Also, may i use the image in lectures about OHs? I'd credit you y name for the design if you'd like.


Brushwoodnursery, 
I never bothered drawing up plans. I just worked it all out in my head. I will try to put pictures of how I do the horizontal and vertical divisions when I finish making the dividers. My name is Henry Long. Feel free to use the photo in your lectures.


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## brushwoodnursery

Thanks! Funny, my last name is Long, too. Just a close up shot would do. I'm a tinkerer/builder so I'll understand. I was also thinking about multiple colonies for your design. I run a few OHs and they seem to be much more stable if they're at least 8 deeps. Maybe just 2 entrances/colonies in there.


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## ffrtsaxk

Does anyone have any suggestions for stocking this thing? I have 2 packages coming mid-April. I’m not sure if it would be best to just put one in it or place both of the packages in hives so I can treat with oxalic acid vapor and allow them to get brood and then try to move one into it (and probably loose a lot of bees in the process). I haven’t been able to get into my Langstroth hive to check the brood yet (only refilled the top feeder), so I may or may not be able to take a frame of brood from them by then.
I was finally able to pick up the supplies to make the insulated cover panels (truck was in the shop), so I should have that finished soon and be able to put some more pictures on here.


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## brushwoodnursery

Get the bees settled onto frames first. Not sure if you really need them to stay in a lang for long. Placing them later will disrupt the brood nest. I forget, did you say you could do this with 2 entrances and make it 2 colonies?


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## Murdock

Looks great! I can tell you did plenty of planning. This is something you can enjoy in any type of weather. Does it have lighting? Red? This is what the hobby is all about... having fun and trying new things.


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## ffrtsaxk

brushwoodnursery said:


> Get the bees settled onto frames first. Not sure if you really need them to stay in a lang for long. Placing them later will disrupt the brood nest. I forget, did you say you could do this with 2 entrances and make it 2 colonies?


Yes, I can easily add a second entrance and run 2 colonies.


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## ffrtsaxk

Murdock said:


> Looks great! I can tell you did plenty of planning. This is something you can enjoy in any type of weather. Does it have lighting? Red? This is what the hobby is all about... having fun and trying new things.


I'm trying to decide on the lighting now. I was considering red, how well does it work? I have this thing on barn door track and wheels to move from one wall to the other, so I may mount lights on both walls instead of mounting it to the hive.


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## brushwoodnursery

I think that's a good thing. If one colony goes big, you can always pull the other.


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## ffrtsaxk

The insulated panels are finished.


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## brushwoodnursery

Nice!


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## broncorm

Looks good


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## DanielD

A bee wall. I look forward to seeing it with bees and how it works out.


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## ffrtsaxk

Does anyone have any recommendations for how much ventilation to open to start out using 3 lbs of bees? I am planning on starting them in the bottom half of the hive. They will have access to all three vertical columns, but only the bottom 4 horizontal rows. That would be 12 frames. There are 4 holes in the top cover of each column and each hole is 1 inch. There is also a 1 inch hole on each end of the horizonal rows (7 on each end). I was thinking of only having one hole open in the top of the center vertical column along with the entrance tube.


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## Arbol

wow, ambitious for sure.
my 12 frame out front for our visitors here is tough
to manage.
that's great is it for personal or show for visitors?

we set up ours out in the front yard in a covered enclosure
for people driving by to stop by and check out, I have a cam inside 
to watch peoples reactions, it's fun. plus it sells the honey in the stand better.


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## Marcin

DanielD said:


> A bee wall. I look forward to seeing it with bees and how it works out.


Yes, looking forward to updates throughout the year.
Very impressive build.


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## ffrtsaxk

Arbol said:


> wow, ambitious for sure.
> my 12 frame out front for our visitors here is tough
> to manage.
> that's great is it for personal or show for visitors?
> 
> we set up ours out in the front yard in a covered enclosure
> for people driving by to stop by and check out, I have a cam inside
> to watch peoples reactions, it's fun. plus it sells the honey in the stand better.


It's just for me and my family and any friends who happen to come over.
Having one outside with a camera sounds pretty cool.


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## Ruthz

That is so awesome! I wish I had one. 

As for installing the bees, I would put the queen cage on drawn comb in the middle on a frame, and then let the bees crawling through their exit tube (like with a swarm). I think if they smell the queen, they will move in towards her. Then you won’t have to shake bees, and she can get laying quickly.

Good luck, and please keep us posted!


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## ffrtsaxk

Here is how the divisions work. The vertical beams are 2x2’s with a 1x2 attached to it with screws. The 1x2 covers where the boxes come together. The 1x2 is removed and dividers can be slid in the front vertically and/or horizontally. The end of the OH is hinged. Three screws are removed and the end opens up so that dividers can also be slid in horizontally.


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## ffrtsaxk

Ruthz said:


> That is so awesome! I wish I had one.
> 
> As for installing the bees, I would put the queen cage on drawn comb in the middle on a frame, and then let the bees crawling through their exit tube (like with a swarm). I think if they smell the queen, they will move in towards her. Then you won’t have to shake bees, and she can get laying quickly.
> 
> Good luck, and please keep us posted!


How long does it take for all or most of the bees to get from the package into the observation hive? It's been about 10 hours and a bunch are in it, but most are still clustered inside the cage.


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## brushwoodnursery

I think you should load them onto frames in a regular hive then transfer them into the OH.


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## ffrtsaxk

brushwoodnursery said:


> I think you should load them onto frames in a regular hive then transfer them into the OH.


I am sure you are right. I ordered 2 packages of purebred Russians in case something went wrong with one package and go wrong it did. The USPS shipped them without the shipping label attached so they ended up in the wrong state. To make a really long story short, I managed to get them several days after they were supposed to arrive but most of one package was dead. The other package was fine except the fondant plug slipped in on the queen. I hope she wasn’t injured. I put the package with almost all the bees alive in a hive outside. As for the package that was mostly dead, I put the queen in the observation hive and then attached the entrance tube to the package. Some went in, most refused to leave. It was a real pain. I don’t know if there are enough bees to get the observation hive going. There really aren’t that many. If the queen outside hasn’t started laying when I check her, I have a backup if I can figure out how to transfer her without her being killed. If the observation hive doesn’t have enough bees to survive (which is likely), then I may be able to move some from my established Italian hive if or wait and move the outside Russian hive into it.


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## ffrtsaxk

They are raising brood in the plastic comb in the OH.


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## ffrtsaxk

How’s the observation hive looking so far? The queen is currently laying at least 1,000 eggs a day. The frames are from bottom up: 1. capped and emerging brood, 2. A mix of honey, pollen, emerging brood, capped brood, and larvae, 3. every cell is filled with larvae and eggs except for a small patch in the upper right corner which should be filled by tomorrow 4. Honey.
I find it interesting that I have not seen a single small hive beetle in the hive or the oil tray beneath the screened bottom board.


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## odfrank

This thread petered out
What happened? How is the hive doing?


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## ffrtsaxk

Sorry, I didn’t know anyone was still interested. 
The hive is doing great. They’ve started raising more brood for Spring. I’ll post a few more pictures.


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## ffrtsaxk

Here are a few recent ones.


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## nickhefferan

How much have they occupied? wall of bees happen yet?


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## ffrtsaxk

They had 1 column completely filled and were working on the other 2 columns when winter hit. There were way more bees in there than could fit on 7 frames at that time. They have dwindled down a good bit now, but are still healthy. Hopefully, they will be able to pack it out this year.


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## Greeny

Wow! I don't know how I missed this thread originally. Lovely looking hive you've built, and really cool that they've settled in and doing their thing.
I'm curious how active they've been through the winter, and how much stores they consume, compared to a hive outdoors in your area.
Do you/did you feed much?


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## ffrtsaxk

Greeny said:


> Wow! I don't know how I missed this thread originally. Lovely looking hive you've built, and really cool that they've settled in and doing their thing.
> I'm curious how active they've been through the winter, and how much stores they consume, compared to a hive outdoors in your area.
> Do you/did you feed much?


I haven’t feed them much so far. They consumed about 3 and a half frames of honey and removed the nectar they had backfilled a couple of brood frames with before I started feeding them syrup a couple of weeks ago. They’ve gone through about 3 pint jars of heavy syrup and several pints of water in that time. I have also started giving them pollen substitute since they are raising brood again. Since they don’t have to stay in a tight cluster, they haven’t been eating their way up the combs. They have been consuming the honey from top down. The queen and the nurse bees stay on the bottom brood combs even when there isn’t any brood and the workers have been moving honey down from the top to replace what’s consumed at the bottom. So far, I don’t think they have been consuming an inordinate amount of honey compared to the outside hives. That may be because the outside hives need to generate heat most of the time, but the only time the ones in the observation hive seem to generate heat is when there is brood and then they only heat that small area which has ranged from nothing to just over a frame of brood. The bees in the rest of the hive are about the same temperature as my office. 
They are fairly active doing stuff in the hive, but not excessively so. There is usually a large group of field bees that just hangs out by the entrance doing nothing. Flights are limited to when my outdoor hives are also flying.


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## Greeny

ffrtsaxk said:


> They are fairly active doing stuff in the hive, but not excessively so. There is usually a large group of field bees that just hangs out by the entrance doing nothing. Flights are limited to when my outdoor hives are also flying.


Thanks for the info. I find it interesting they haven't eaten all their stores. I have always heard that insulating or wrapping hives led to running out of stores sooner since they were warmer and active and eating more. It sounds like your bees settled down and slowed down even though they're fairly climate controlled and much warmer than your outdoor hives.


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## ffrtsaxk

It’s Spring and they currently have 5 good frames of brood. The frames have about 8,400 cells per frame, so that’s about the limit if a queen is laying 2,000 eggs a day. A lot of bees hang out in the 2 covered columns especially at night when all the foragers are home. They also have pollen stored on the frame nearest the entrance. They like to hang out the window and wave at the neighbors on warm evenings.


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## brushwoodnursery

Thanks for the update! Really cool!


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## brushwoodnursery

I'm planning an new OH and would like your advice, please. I'm doing my WindOH style again. It's a very wide window so I can go 2 frames wide by 3 or 4 high. It will be 2 frames deep. How big are the holes between your sections? Does the queen move easily from one to the next or has she stayed on one column?


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## ffrtsaxk

brushwoodnursery said:


> I'm planning an new OH and would like your advice, please. I'm doing my WindOH style again. It's a very wide window so I can go 2 frames wide by 3 or 4 high. It will be 2 frames deep. How big are the holes between your sections? Does the queen move easily from one to the next or has she stayed on one column?


The holes are ¾ of an inch. But, this is actually one of the things I would have done differently if I was making a stationary observation hive. But, since I need to roll mine from one wall to the other, I decided not to risk the structural integrity of the boxes by making longer oblong holes to allow the bees easier movement or using multiple pairs of holes offset from the center.
The old queen never left the column I introduced her to. The new queen that went on her matting flight 2 days ago has been in all 3 columns, but spends most of her time in the same column the 1st queen used. She isn’t laying yet though. When the new queen goes from box to box, she goes under the bottom. Because of the way the frames I am using are built, I realized that would likely be the way the queen would have to move when I built it. I am using Honey Super Cell fully drawn plastic comb. They have a spacer that runs the full length of both ends of the frames so that when you place them into a normal hive the bees cannot go around the ends, but have to go over the top or under the bottom of the frames. When placed in my observation hive, the space between the “glass” and those spacers is just enough for the workers to go around and get to and use the holes between boxes, but too small for the queen to go around. I could have cut those spacers off and might do so someday, but wanted to keep the frames completely interchangeable with the frames in my Langstroth hives. 
Since you are probably using regular frames, you shouldn’t have the problem of the queen not being able to get to the holes. And, since you are making a smaller stationary observation hive, you can do the holes differently without worrying about anything breaking. 
If I was building an observation hive like you are describing and I wanted to make sure that the queen went from one column to another, I would cut oblong 3/8 inch holes that line up with the gap between your front and back frames and extend at least half the height of the frame. I might leave a 3/8 inch space between the glass and sections of the support beam in the middle that the frames will be resting on like the one pictured here: https://illawarrabeekeepers.org.au/observation-hive-bob-perkins-legacy/ 
That might result in the bees building comb from the frames all the way over to the support beams. If I was using traditional frames without full length spacers and wanted to make sure they didn’t build comb between the frames and the support beams, I would cut pairs of either circular or oblong holes lined up with the center of the frames. My bees have not tried to fill in the ¾ inch holes between the boxes that are lined up with the center of the frames. But, if I was making oblong cuts, I would keep it to 3/8 or ½ inch.


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## ffrtsaxk

Here is a picture of the frames I am using.


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## brushwoodnursery

Thanks for the details. I want to be able to slide doors to shut the holes. Going to allow it to be operated as one or two colonies. It should be pretty cool to shut it in spring and watch which side didn't get the queen make a new one. It will have top entrances out each side which can be closed as needed. I'm working on whether or not the doors will hinge or just unscrew and pull off.


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## ffrtsaxk

brushwoodnursery said:


> Thanks for the details. I want to be able to slide doors to shut the holes. Going to allow it to be operated as one or two colonies. It should be pretty cool to shut it in spring and watch which side didn't get the queen make a new one. It will have top entrances out each side which can be closed as needed. I'm working on whether or not the doors will hinge or just unscrew and pull off.


Sound cool. Keep me posted.


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## LearningBee

ffrtsaxk, it's been a couple years since you last posted on this thread - have you maintained two colonies, or is a single colony using the entire space? Also, how do you go about maintaining the hive? Do you find a need to swap out frames and such? Or is it so large that they don't get crowded?


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## ffrtsaxk

I have maintained it as a single colony. They have plenty of space and haven’t gotten overly crowded. So, I normally don’t need to swap out frames. But, they did go through the usual reproductive swarming process once this Spring (I learned a lot watching it happen on this scale) and I pulled a couple of frames out at that time with queen cells on them to make a split after they got a mated queen back. I left a few cells to see how that worked out. It was really cool watching the workers keep virgins captive inside their cells and feed them through holes and seal them back in and trying to keep the new queen from killing them. There was a whole lot of drama in there during that period and later as well, way more than in my small observation hive. The new queen got herself slightly stung by a worker when trying to kill a virgin in a cell in the Spring and I think that may have led to her laying doubles. They tried to supersede her, but that ended with a civil war in the hive with workers killing each other and the virgin. I harvested honey from it as well. I finally decided to requeen it because the queen was still laying doubles a lot. That was a real eye opener. After getting rid of the existing queen and waiting until they were hopelessly queenless, I added a queen and a couple frames of bees from a nuc with a screen in between them. When I combined them, it went nothing like either of the scenarios I would have expected. Once the new queen was accepted, she started laying and has been laying ever since. It’s January and they still have brood and are doing well.
That is the extremely abbreviated version of what has happened. I did a presentation on it at the local association with lots of videos and photos and I managed to keep it under 2 hours. Everyone loved it.


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## LearningBee

Your project is inspiring; I definitely need to build something like this. The OH is indoors, right? Do you roll it outside to maintain it? Or can you segregate and remove individual frames?


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## Marcin

ffrtsaxk said:


> I did a presentation on it at the local association with lots of videos and photos and I managed to keep it under 2 hours. Everyone loved it.


I'll bet. Next time you make that presentation, let me know. You're only a 5 hour drive away


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## ffrtsaxk

Each frame is in its own box, so I slide dividers between them and take one box out at a time.


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## ffrtsaxk

Marcin said:


> I'll bet. Next time you make that presentation, let me know. You're only a 5 hour drive away


I was asked to consider doing a breakout session at the state field day which I think is in March. But, I was told I would only have 20 minutes. So, I wouldn't be able to cover a lot. I'm still thinking about what I could cut and include. I'll be doing a presentation for new beekeepers on running an observation hive at the PBA workshop on the 25th, so I've spent my time working on that and haven't actually done much for the state presentation yet besides think.


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## LearningBee

ffrtsaxk, Your OH is three frames wide - do you find the colony spreads out side to side, or do they tend to stay in a relatively narrow column?


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## ffrtsaxk

LearningBee said:


> ffrtsaxk, Your OH is three frames wide - do you find the colony spreads out side to side, or do they tend to stay in a relatively narrow column?


Both, once the queen starts laying she moves up and down in the column she is in and stays in that column. The workers place most of the stores in the same column as the queen, but also utilize the other columns for stores and hang out in the other columns at night and when there are too many bees to fit comfortably in one column. They also like to use the bottom frames of the column closest to the entrance for the dance floor and for storing pollen. Right now, the column furthest from the entrance has the brood chamber and most of the honey and pollen stores, but they also have 3 frames with pollen in the column by the entrance.


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## Cloverdale

This is a work of love Henry Long, thanks for keeping this thread going. It’s great. Who ever knew the drama that goes on in a hive.?Honey bees are amazing. Thanks.


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## ffrtsaxk

Cloverdale said:


> This is a work of love Henry Long, thanks for keeping this thread going. It’s great. Who ever knew the drama that goes on in a hive.?Honey bees are amazing. Thanks.


You are welcome and thank you.


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## ffrtsaxk

Here's a close-up video I took of the queen laying in this observation hive on February 13th. https://www.facebook.com/groups/msbainfo/permalink/1593783377444980/


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## bee bud

Great video


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## Andhors

Would you recommend the artificial comb? Are they still on the artificial comb?


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## ffrtsaxk

Andhors said:


> Would you recommend the artificial comb? Are they still on the artificial comb?


Yes, they are still on artificial comb and I do like using it enough that I no longer use wax comb. If you decide to try it, I recommend running it through the dishwasher before you use it. I got some in black once that looked like they had some sort of residue on them. So, I wash them all first and I don't have any acceptance issues.


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## Robert Holcombe

I do believe many factors affect consumption rates. If you examine the metabolic curve for honey bee consumption of honey versus temperature you will see a pretty low consumption rate for about a 40F to 60F ambient inside the hive ( data form memory) - fairly wide range. If you look a the slope, consumption increases as internal temperatures rise but not a a fast as if it gets colder. The colder the ambient gets the more the more they consume to produce heat for survival.

There is more to the story as there is more than one issue such as moisture, CO2, brood rearing, dehydration. I have tried to weight hives every two weeks to get a trend in winter but was defeated by wet weather and an actual increase in hive weights! Understanding moisture control in a hive is not simple but it seems the bees are good at it. 

In one case, increasing temperature you have increased consumption to raise brood, forage etc - things that help a hive survive. The opposite direction is purely survival from what I can see and learn. I'll take the warmer side and I heavily insulate with no top venting. My experience and efforts lead me to believe there is a tipping point whereby the bees control the inner environment to suit if you give them a chance.


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## Marcin

Any updates? Those of us who are in bee winterland need updates


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## ffrtsaxk

Marcin said:


> Any updates? Those of us who are in bee winterland need updates


The observation hive is doing well. It’s November 21, 2020 and they are still raising brood. It has been a crazy year though. They built up really well this spring and had about 5 deeps filled with surplus honey before they started the swarming process. Here’s a photo from early August. I had a couple of surgeries and was unable to split them when they were preparing to swarm so I got to see some really crazy stuff go down. The workers wanted to swarm, but the queen didn’t want to leave the hive and they couldn’t manage to get her out. So, when the virgins started emerging, the workers started killing them. After watching a number of virgins get killed and the queen still refusing to leave, I killed the queen by pressing on the polycarbonate sheeting. I was hoping that the workers would then let the virgins emerge and requeen the hive or swarm into a swarm trap I had set up. The workers however continued to ball and kill all of the virgins. Without checking my records, I think that went on for about 8 days before they finally stopped killing them. One of the virgins got mated and returned only to be killed by another virgin that emerged. Then the few remaining virgins battled it out until only one remained. Unfortunately, that one did not return from her mating flight and I ended up having to requeen the hive by placing a caged queen on the feeding screen for a number of days and then directly releasing her into the hive. That’s the short version. It really was crazy to watch it all unfold.


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## Cloverdale

Beautiful!


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## FriscoDad

Hi @ffrtsaxk , Thanks for sharing your observation hive with us.

How much ventilation do you have built into the OH? Does it vent into your house or to the outdoors? If you have vents that are open to your home does it create any strong smells?


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## JWPalmer

FriscoDad said:


> Hi @ffrtsaxk does it create any strong smells?


IMO, a healthy hive smells really good.


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## ffrtsaxk

FriscoDad said:


> Hi @ffrtsaxk , Thanks for sharing your observation hive with us.
> 
> How much ventilation do you have built into the OH? Does it vent into your house or to the outdoors? If you have vents that are open to your home does it create any strong smells?


There is a vent hole on the side of each box and 3 along the top of each stack. If I remember correctly, they are each 1/2 inch. However, I usually keep all of them plugged except one on the bottom box on each end. They also have a screened porch and screened feeder area that allow air exchange. Most of the time I can't smell the hive. There is a fragrant smell during much of the spring honey flow. It has a stronger odor when my neighbors Bradford pears are in bloom. I don't mind it, but my wife says the Bradford pear odor stinks. It only lasts a couple of weeks though.


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## Marcin

For those interested, Henry will be doing a presentation on his observation hives and sharing some cool things he learned and saw. You can register for free at Virtual Beekeeping Lecture - Observation Hives


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## pdt

Marcin said:


> For those interested, Henry will be doing a presentation on his observation hives and sharing some cool things he learned and saw. You can register for free at Virtual Beekeeping Lecture - Observation Hives


Was this event recorded by any chance?


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## ffrtsaxk

pdt said:


> Was this event recorded by any chance?


The sound quality on the recording was off. I will be doing a presentation in July for a group in California and working out the details for one in the Midwest in June.


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