# Mann Lake



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

I ordered several packages from Mann Lake earlier this year, After releasing the queen I left the bees alone for 3 weeks so as to allow the queen to settle in and get the hive started. On the 3 week inspection there was No brood in the hive, No eggs, no larva, and no capped brood. I located the queen and she was happily wandering the frame doing nothing. I called Man lake and told them the problem. They told to give her another week, Not that I thought it would matter, so I did. After that week the conditions were the same so I called them back. They told me a new queen. but I would have to drive to their store to get it. I told them It was a 450 mile trip and the fuel cost alone was more than the cost of the queen and asked if they would mail her. They refused claiming they had too many problems with queens not arriving or dying. Well I happen to know that Olivarez honey bee gives them extra queens for just such situations because I have spoken to Olivarez in the past. so what difference does it make to man lake weather the queen arrives or not. (BTW I have had queens shipped from Olivarez in California to Pa. and they made it just fine.) One would think a within state shipment would be just as successful. 
Anyway by now this package is 3 weeks with no brood new bees and is dwindling fast. So I call and speech to someone in a position of authority, and tell them the situation I get more run around ( now have over an hour in Phone time) Don't get called back the next day as promised, and after three days I call them back. I tell them the package is down to a cup of bees and basically done for. They tell me they will discuss it with their supervisor and get back to me. When they get back to me they tell me they will give me a nuc to replace the by now failed package. But I have to pick it up. Now let me see. 450 miles @ 16 MPG=28.125 gallons gasoline. @ $3.10 per gallon = $87.1875 450 miles @60 mph=7,5 hours. + 2 fuel stops @ 20 minutes each =8hr 10 min. Figure 1/2 hour for pick up. and 40 minutes for my employee to have lunch. We are now up to 9hours and 20 minutes. My employee's wages are $11.50 per hour. $11.50 X 9.333=$107.30 They expect me to invest $194.49 to replace a $141.00 package, THAT I ALREADY PAID FOR! This is not the first time I have had to do battle with Mann lake over their stupidity they once charged me twice for the same order. after hours on the phone they would not make it right. I had to cancel my sky miles credit card and dispute the charge. My bank n longer offers sky miles credit cards. so I list that forever. 

I bought Olivarez carnolians because that is what I wanted to try. I could have easily split some of my hives and introduced Olivarez queens. 

I mentor dozens of students annually, as well as maintain over 100 hives. As of today. I WILL NO LONGER BUY FROM OR RECOMEND MANN LAKE. 

as long as Mann Lake is taking the money they are fine. but when they make a mistake DO NOT EXPECT THEM TO RECTIFY IT! 


EVERYONE SHOULD CONSIDER THIS WHEN DEALING WITH MANN LAKE!!!


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

Well, that sounds really vexing, and I am sorry you are having trouble with ML.

But maybe it will make you feel a bit better if I say that I, for one, am glad to see you posting again on BeeSource, Several of us wondered at your absence and were hoping all was well. There even was a thread about it sometime this spring!


Nancy


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

hi tenbears! how was hunting season?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*



Tenbears said:


> After releasing the queen I left the bees alone for 3 weeks so as to allow the queen to settle in and get the hive started.


I realize that you've got many years of experience installing packages and that Mann Lake should have dealt with this better, so what I'm about to say can be ignored by you, but newbees should read on. Waiting three weeks to check for eggs is not something I recommend. I check for eggs about day 5, and if none are found, then I repeat frequently until about day 8 to 10. If past day 10 and still no eggs, then open brood is given. Honestly, if I can afford it, a frame of brood is given during the install. Packages can be finicky, so its important not to disturb them too much, but you need to balance that with the need to know if all is well. Packages are already highly unbalanced and going queenless for 3 weeks is pretty much game over. At 4 weeks out you no doubt have a total loss.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

"I ordered several packages from Mann Lake earlier this year...."

Which store/location did you order your bees from? They shipped the first packages but would not ship a replacement, you would have to pick it up, right?


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

No I picked up Numerous packages. All they would have had to ship was a queen. Now let me add, several of the packages went to my customers, and of them 3 others had queen problems. However I was the one who sold them to these people. I could not verify that the queens were handles properly, so I replaced them, they were Italian bees so I used my queens to replace them. The packages I kept were Carni and I have no Carni's to glean from.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

" 16 MPG" - just out of interest...what are you driving?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

They are forcing you to drive so they can say they "offered a replacement but you refused to take it." 

I'd loudly kick'em to the curb, too.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

Max2 A ford F350 diesel. But it is geared to pull our 30 foot trailer when fully loaded. And it is the only vehicle I have insured for employees to drive. the hourly rate would be much higher if I had to go get them.


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

In all fairness, your situation sucks bigtime. 
BUT...

In general I have had great service from Mann Lake regarding all other realms of equipment. But I have never bought bees from them. 

So that's my question. Why would you buy bees from Mann Lake and not directly from a beekeeper?


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

I'm a new keeper myself, also ordered equipment from them online, not bees. Their shipping is slow, but no issues otherwise. I wish they would do faster, but accurate shipping . 
On packages, I installed 2, and a swarm on the same day. I left them alone for 7 days. Queens were out of queen shipper, and I looked for eggs, yes they were in there, so I left them alone. All doing well. If they weren't any eggs, I'd have been a little worried, and done something to make sure they had a way to make a queen or something.. Just my thoughts.. good luck


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*



AstroBee said:


> ...but newbees should read on. Waiting three weeks to check for eggs is not something I recommend. I check for eggs about day 5, and if none are found, then I repeat frequently until about day 8 to 10. If past day 10 and still no eggs, then open brood is given...


X2


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

In six years I have never had a speck of problem with Mann Lakes service or communication. Quick shipping except when I gave directions to hold in case of a back ordered item. In the same time frame I dont think I have read more than three or four posts here on Beesource that were critical of them. Unless something has changed dramatically in their business plan I don't they deserve the general statement that, "Mann Lake Sucks Big Time". My dealings have been through the Hakensack Minnesota branch; perhaps local management in other centers is different.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*



crofter said:


> In six years I have never had a speck of problem with Mann Lakes service or communication. Quick shipping except when I gave directions to hold in case of a back ordered item. In the same time frame I dont think I have read more than three or four posts here on Beesource that were critical of them. Unless something has changed dramatically in their business plan I don't they deserve the general statement that, "Mann Lake Sucks Big Time". My dealings have been through the Hakensack Minnesota branch; perhaps local management in other centers is different.


I tend to agree and I do a lot of business with them. 
Sorry, but I just have to make an observation here. I’m not going to say ML handled this very well but am I the only one here that finds it a bit odd that someone who “maintains a 100 hives and mentors dozens of students” is paying over $140 for a package and isn’t able to diagnose the problem a bit sooner and come up with some brood to remedy the occasional queen issue one gets with packages? I expect that from a newbie not from someone claiming 57 years of beekeeping experience.


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## Matt yocham (Aug 3, 2016)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

I have bought a fair amount of equipment from them and have had no problems at all, but if I had bought bees from them and the queens were no good they should do everything they can to make it right, and it seem they haven't so tenbears has every right to say they suck. For the people who say he shouldn't label them that way would feel the same as him if they were in his shoes.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*



jim lyon said:


> I tend to agree and I do a lot of business with them.
> Sorry, but I just have to make an observation here. I’m not going to say ML handled this very well but am I the only one here that finds it a bit odd that someone who “maintains a 100 hives and mentors dozens of students” is paying over $140 for a package and isn’t able to diagnose the problem a bit sooner and come up with some brood to remedy the occasional queen issue one gets with packages? I expect that from a newbie not from someone claiming 57 years of beekeeping experience.


I have always received great service from Mann Lake and would like to hear the other side of the story.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

I’m not trying to be combative here but what good is a replacement queen going to do almost a month later when the package has dwindled to “a cup of bees”? I think ML’s offer of a replacement nuc is a pretty fair offer, as that’s your best chance to end up with any production at that late date but of course a nuc isn’t very shippable and ML would undoubtedly already be losing money on the deal Is it ML’s fault that the customers best option is sending paid help in a vehicle that’s not very fuel efficient?


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## MichiganMike (Mar 25, 2014)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

My queen supplier here in Michigan, Dr. Megan Milbrath nolonger ships queens because of a high dead delivery rate and it appears that holds true for ML. I am very pleased with my experiences with ML.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

I have only purchased once from Mann Lake and the order was shipped fast and arrived in good condition. I have never bought bees from them though. I am suprised they did not make a modification to their shipping policy to rectify this situatation. Customer service just isn't what it used to be.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*



jim lyon said:


> I tend to agree and I do a lot of business with them.
> Sorry, but I just have to make an observation here. I’m not going to say ML handled this very well but am I the only one here that finds it a bit odd that someone who “maintains a 100 hives and mentors dozens of students” is paying over $140 for a package and isn’t able to diagnose the problem a bit sooner and come up with some brood to remedy the occasional queen issue one gets with packages? I expect that from a newbie not from someone claiming 57 years of beekeeping experience.


I wonder that too...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*



JWPalmer said:


> I have only purchased once from Mann Lake and the order was shipped fast and arrived in good condition. I have never bought bees from them though. I am suprised they did not make a modification to their shipping policy to rectify this situatation. Customer service just isn't what it used to be.


They have screwed up a couple of orders of mine and I’ve found their customer service to be pretty good but then I’m a higher volume customer. Keep in mind here that shipping bees is unique and highly seasonal with limited supplies and shipping windows. Not a situation where you can grab another one off the shelf. I have no doubt bee suppliers hate dealing with the myriad problems and customer service that comes with live third party bee deliveries but I suppose it’s hard to furnish everything a beekeeper needs.....except the bees.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*



enjambres said:


> Well, that sounds really vexing, and I am sorry you are having trouble with ML.
> 
> But maybe it will make you feel a bit better if I say that I, *for one, am glad to see you posting again on BeeSource, Several of us wondered at your absence and were hoping all was well.* There even was a thread about it sometime this spring!
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*



jim lyon said:


> I’m not trying to be combative here but what good is a replacement queen going to do almost a month later when the package has dwindled to “a cup of bees”? I think ML’s offer of a replacement nuc is a pretty fair offer, as that’s your best chance to end up with any production at that late date but of course a nuc isn’t very shippable and ML would undoubtedly already be losing money on the deal Is it ML’s fault that the customers best option is sending paid help in a vehicle that’s not very fuel efficient?


 Look They sold a package and represented said package as having a BRED Queen. IT did not! They could have solved the problem By putting one of the extra queens supplied by the package grower in a priority mail package and sent said queen. I would have paid the shipping. Instead they demanded I drove or sent someone 450 miles. When I first called them They were not down to a cup of bees their messing around for weeks is what resulted in the diminishment to a cup of bees. It is not a matter of the bees, or the money, It is a matter of I paid for somethin, Drove a long way to get it. and it was NOT what it was represented to be.

.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

Sorry to hear about that Tenbears. I know that is a very frustrating situation.

I am glad to see you posting here again though and am hoping for a great bee season for you there.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

Good to see you posting again TenBears. Sorry for the issues with Mann Lake. My only criticism of ML (and I have never ordered bees from them) is that their website looks like it was designed by a 7th grader. Terrible product descriptions and pictures. No technical specs on anything. No ability to see your "Bee Bucks" and actually know what your order is going to cost you until a couple of days after you order. I have been to a lot of Mom & Pop hobby store websites that do a much better job than ML. Otherwise, I have been satisfied.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*



Tenbears said:


> I ordered several packages from Mann Lake earlier this year, They told me a new queen. but I would have to drive to their store to get it. I told them It was a 450 mile trip and the fuel cost alone was more than the cost of the queen and asked if they would mail her.


Would like to have more information if possible. Do you ever sell nucs or packages? If so do you deliver or must the buyer(s) pick up? If the package fails and you choose to replace the queen or entire package of bee do you deliver to the buyer or must they pick up?
Thanks.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*



jim lyon said:


> I tend to agree and I do a lot of business with them.
> Sorry, but I just have to make an observation here. I’m not going to say ML handled this very well but am I the only one here that finds it a bit odd that someone who “maintains a 100 hives and mentors dozens of students” is paying over $140 for a package and isn’t able to diagnose the problem a bit sooner and come up with some brood to remedy the occasional queen issue one gets with packages? I expect that from a newbie not from someone claiming 57 years of beekeeping experience.


Not that it is any of your business, But, we are doing a study with saskatraz bees, and Olivarez Honey bee is a large supplier, They sell through Mann Lake. No I realize we could have ordered Queens direct from Oliverez, and re-queened existing hives However carni queen seem to have trouble indoctrinating to Italian hives, Beside the time involved in breed conversion of the hive would impact the study. NOW, since you have NO idea as to the basis of the study you really should not assume and should expect NOTHING!

I too do a lot of business with Mann Lake. I buy boxes by the pallet. and frames by the case. And yes over the years I have had a bump in the road here and there with them. That is to be expected. But to call and have the girl that answers the phone be rude, uncooperative and refuse to let you speak to the supervisor, Saying he is not in today. When you request to have him call you back he/she never does. Making you call dozens of times to speak to a supervisor. That is just wrong. Them to offer an unreasonable solution is offensive. And it has been this way ever since they opened their facility in Pennsylvania. 





enjambres said:


> Well, that sounds really vexing, and I am sorry you are having trouble with ML.
> 
> But maybe it will make you feel a bit better if I say that I, for one, am glad to see you posting again on BeeSource, Several of us wondered at your absence and were hoping all was well. There even was a thread about it sometime this spring!
> 
> ...


 People like this are the reason I left beesource. They make it not about the discussion But one's experience, and veracity! Thanks Jim For the reminder. Good of you to offer it early on so I waste no more of my time!


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

Yes I do sell Packages and nucs and no I do not deliver. However, if I sell one and they are not what I represent them to be I will bring a replacement to the customer, I will go through their hive and asses the situation and install a replacement queen if that is what is required. In fact along with the packages I purchase for our study, I also got sever from Man Lake for resale. Some of them had queen Issues. Those that were Italians I replaced the queens with queens I had raised at no charge. I did not tell my customers Well they are live stock and cannot be guaranteed, Or I have no way of knowing that you did not damage her during an inspection. And If a Package fails because of My actions or inactions yes, I replace it. If the situation warranted I would ship a queen or a package. If I were incapable of supplying them with a viable queen at THEIR convenience I would credit them the cost of buying a queen and the shipping to get it to them. and advise them to get one from the best posable source.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*



Tenbears said:


> Not that it is any of your business, But, we are doing a study with saskatraz bees, and Olivarez Honey bee is a large supplier, They sell through Mann Lake. No I realize we could have ordered Queens direct from Oliverez, and re-queened existing hives However carni queen seem to have trouble indoctrinating to Italian hives, Beside the time involved in breed conversion of the hive would impact the study. NOW, since you have NO idea as to the basis of the study you really should not assume and should expect NOTHING!


Indeed this would have been good information to have initially posted and the reason I found your post so vexing. If my response is forcing you to leave Beesource then that is your right but I do find it odd that you decided to make this cameo with such a title when perhaps a thread entitled “We are doing a study on Carni queens” with a little offshoot about your difficulty in obtaining one would have had a more positive ring to it. In any case, sorry I offended you and sorry to hear ML’s branch out there has had a few problems. Wishing you all the best, most on here will attest to the fact that I’m actually a pretty nice guy.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*



jim lyon said:


> Indeed this would have been good information to have initially posted and the reason I found your post so vexing. If my response is forcing you to leave Beesource then that is your right but I do find it odd that you decided to make this cameo with such a title when perhaps a thread entitled “We are doing a study on Carni queens” with a little offshoot about your difficulty in obtaining one would have had a more positive ring to it. In any case, sorry I offended you and sorry to hear ML’s branch out there has had a few problems. Wishing you all the best, most on here will attest to the fact that I’m actually a pretty nice guy.


 Why does what I am doing with these packages matter as to weather The supplier is acting professionally? The title was appropriate for the thread. I did not post to discuss the study, I posted to warn people of a POOR vender who has no real customer loyalty. why should it have to have a "positive ring"? Why should my experience, or integrity have been called into question. Why should my Veracity be challenged. You went so far as to check my background for no other reason than to challenge my integrity. Pretty nice guys do not do that! Again, Thanks for the reminder.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*



Tenbears said:


> You went so far as to check my background for no other reason than to challenge my integrity.


Yes, I read your public profile.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

I get a tad cranky when someone ships me damaged goods. I received a package of 100 nursery trays that had one corner broken out. They are useless in the greenhouse. Fortunately, they were replaced with no questions asked. I seriously question the failure to ship a queen. I've shipped queens a few times with USPS and had zero problems.


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## Mickrat (May 4, 2014)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

I’ve had a similar bad customer from Mann Lake also. I’ll never buy from them again. Too many other options to put up with that.


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Come on Tenbears you know better. You know how tough the bee business is. I like Mann lake and never had a problem they didn't resolve. I have never met Jim Lyon either but if had read his posts for years and find him to be very helpful and believe him to be a man of high character. Cool down when the dust settles it wont be so bad. You accepted the risks when you bought the packages .


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: Mann lake SUCKS bigtime*

Doing the following:

- Moving this to "Consumer Report"
- Changing the title to conform to the rules of the sub-forum
- Asking posters to be careful about getting personal

It doesn't really belong in "Equipment and Hardware" so moving it seems logical. Please stay on track re: Mann Lake and any experiences with them.


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## I'llbeedan (Mar 31, 2013)

Bkwoodsbees said:


> Come on Tenbears you know better. You know how tough the bee business is. I like Mann lake and never had a problem they didn't resolve. I have never met Jim Lyon either but if had read his posts for years and find him to be very helpful and believe him to be a man of high character. Cool down when the dust settles it wont be so bad. You accepted the risks when you bought the packages .


 Exactly right the bee business it difficult. So why should our suppliers be able to make it more difficult. As a member of the legal community I do Know one thing. When you sell and represent something in any manner, it better be what you say. Mann lake represents their packages as 3 pounds of bees, with a newly bred queen. I have bought bees from Mann lake Wilkes Barre in the past, and know that queen failure is high among their packages. Loosing a queen here and there is part of the game. However, a non laying queen that is still in the hive seems to be another story. It seems that it does not constitute a newly bred queen. A few years ago I bought 25 packages from Mann Lake. Introduced them into hive which had at least 3 drawn frames in them. Followed normal prodigal of releasing the queens as recommended by Mann lake. Of the 25 packages 11 queens failed 4 were dead when I went to pull the cork, 2 were found dead in the bottom of the hive on first inspection. and the other 5 were never found. Now I do not profess to be an expert bee keeper, I as well will be the first to admit that I am fallible. But nearly 50% seems a bit high I called Mann Lake Wilkes Barre, and was met with a rather obstinate rude lady who had absolutely no interest in helping me out in any way shape or form. I called Olivarez Honey Bees on Orland Ca. who was Nice enough to provide a health certificate with their information with the bees. and explained the situation I told them I was willing to take responsibility for 1/2 of the queens but I felt there was more in play here than simply my bad luck and poor beekeeping skills. They told me they did not understand Mann Lakes reluctance to supply me with new queens as they send a surplus with the packages. In any event they would send me new queens. They sent me 12 queens, shipped them overnight and charged me nothing. 


Mann Lake could have easily done the very same thing. but chose not too! For me this happened early on in my beekeeping. so I cannot say how Mann Lake is or is not on other aspects, I went to Kelly Bee right away, and began buying bees from Rossman Apiaries

We all Have our pet peeves, I have seen people spend thousands of dollars on unrecoverable suits just to prove a point. Most often it is to say "I am mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore"


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