# Hands off Beekeeping.....for the most part.



## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Man I wish it was hands off like it was 40 years ago!!!


----------



## 123989 (Jul 30, 2018)

That would be nice.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I do have just the one colony (amongst dozens of others) which I've been 'leaving alone' as a trial for a couple of years now - in a thick-walled 'Warre' stack I modified to take British National frames. I've been checking that hive just twice a year: in early Spring, and again in October. Other than dosing with VOA at the same time as all the other hives and ensuring it has adequate stores ... that's it. The colony was doing fine last time I checked - and it's been happily sucking syrup since then - but I'll only know for sure that it's ok come next March.

What I'm really doing of course is testing the hive design itself, which has a permanently-exposed Open Mesh Floor with a Slatted Rack over, and which the colony has been keeping as clean as the day it was installed - unlike most of my other hives which require periodic cleaning-out.

But - other than functioning as a test colony, it hasn't been contributing anything at all to the running of the apiary - except maybe a few drones.
LJ


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Just yesterday I visited a 3-unit yard so I could move a colony into a better equipment for the winter.
The last visit prior was 8/18/2019 - *two months.*

Bees are fine, if a little light on the stores (which is fixable later in a season).
In fact, they are fine without me.
One hive just chased me away - good for them; they did not need me there, poking around.

I suppose I taped over the entrances from robbing, proactively.
(one hive was actually under robbing pressure but they had no problems holding the invaders back - taped them in while on site anyway; surely, it was no the first robbing attempt - but I will never know and it does not matter)

I have another 1-unit yard I have not seen about 3 months.
Low priority.
I have nothing for them yet (a bigger winter hive be good for them).
Pretty sure they have nothing for me to see either.

PS: to be sure, I don't do Langs either - deep frame hives require no box rotations and the like moves, for me to be physically present; bees can do the rest on their own.


----------



## DeepCreek (Jan 23, 2015)

Our inspections are done every 7 to 10 days Spring to Fall. A lot can change in that time and we've been able to stop some problems from becoming bigger ones.


----------



## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

I would say I minimize my interference. I have a standard winter / brood configuration that I put a QE over than supers. I check the standard section box bottoms for swarm cells in late May and June, maybe part of July. If I am suspicious of a queen issue then I go in looking for brood status. That's it, no frame moving, no box swapping, no alcohol wash sampling. I will be increasing drone cells removal this coming year as a test. I am debating with myself about doing a brood break next year. Brood break resulted in a house cleaning (low Varroa numbers) but was followed by a massive horizontal invasion as the foragers went "a robbing and foraging" while waiting for a new "acceptable" queen..


----------



## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

Sure that’s fine if that’s how you want to keep bees. Probably not a good method for honey production, nucs, or keeping swarms from moving into the neighbors’ houses.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I suppose if you are located in a very isolated place, no big deal. If you live somewhere that there are neighbors, schools, businesses and such….then neglecting any sort of swarm management is irresponsible, in my opinion. Some of those swarms will become a nuisance to your neighbors.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Agree about the swarm prevention. Springtime - Mid April into June I'm checking the hives almost every week. Reversals, opening the broodnest, adding supers. If not, the usual outcome is swarming. Summer through Fall it's more hands off. Maybe once every 3 or 4 weeks. A few more frequent inspections in the Fall for mite treatment and late season feeding if needed. 

When I was first starting out I was in the hives all the time. Wasn't really necessary but it was a great learning experience.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> Just yesterday I visited a 3-unit yard so I could move a colony into a better equipment for the winter.
> The last visit prior was 8/18/2019 - *two months.*
> ....


To be sure - I was weekly or so in that exact yard in May-June (the swarm season).
No way I was going to loose my #1 queen.
As well as the #1 queen must working to the max to my advantage - so that takes some personal time.

But that was then.
Starting at about August and with proper setup some of the units can be neglected for a month and more.
Nucs, on the hand, need frequent visits - that's where the neglect is balancing out.
So, the "neglect" really must be qualified - blanket "neglect" is not working too well - selective "neglect" is pretty much a necessity if one to have any decent # of units.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have one three visit yard.

1. Spring inspection, place supers and supered bait hives.
2. Harvest and place Apivar.
3. Remove Apivar.

I should use Formic Pro and get it down to two visits a year. Or leave the Apivar in for four months. 

If loses are bad there is a bring new colony trip.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Queen rearing in my home yard I'm in the hives every week. My outyards I'm in the hives about three or four times a year. More would be better but it's hard to find the time...


----------



## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

There are different ways of doing things. I prefer more management, which I believe will result in more sucess in my goals.



fadder said:


> I figure they have been raising bees a longer than I have. I just let them be bees.


But not in man-made hives, in their non-native environment, with pesticides and herbicides, and with varroa. They also do not naturally want to make honey for you, so maybe that needs to be managed if you want to maximize it.


----------



## hecjt (Mar 28, 2016)

fadder said:


> I see people talking about weekly inspections, about rotating boxes
> and it makes me wonder, does everyone
> do this? Is there anyone else out there
> that operates on the principal of just
> ...


I'm pretty much in your camp. I've been keeping bees for almost 10 years (so still a novice for the most part) but I've had years where I aggressively treated, regardless of indication of issues, for varroa, tracheal mite, nosema, etc and then years when I've been pretty passive. I haven't noticed a survival or production difference other than I save a buttload of money not buying chemicals. The only thing that I did treat aggressively and am glad I did was hive beetles. I had them pretty bad one year and I treated which took care of it. Mind you I don't do the powdered sugar rolls or other advanced monitoring things that more seasoned beekeepers do, so take what I write for what it's worth. The first person to figure out how to have a colony produce 200 lbs of honey and survive every winter will be a millionairre...


----------



## beesRus (Nov 15, 2018)

Fadder,

we are like you. My son & I keep a small apiary of 2 - 3 hives. We have not suffered losses from any problems related to not checking in on the bees. We check when we think it's needed (per weather, local pollination flows, etc). Our only losses were from a bear attack and from a robbing before we knew what to watch for in 'robbing' season. My son does the Formic Pro thing starting only this year of 4; until then... no problems with mites. We do not "move supers around" unless we see, during minimal flows or close to putting down for winter, that there are unfilled frames that need to 'get out of the way' for the bees to produce their last harvest (now asters here in PA), and then we close up, feed sugar, and tie down to stop he bears! 

We simply do not have time to do more, and so far NATURE & the BEES are doing their thing. Yay! and we are getting wax for crafts, honey for us, and more honey to sell ... just not on commercial scale.

Michele



fadder said:


> I see people talking about weekly inspections, about rotating boxes
> and it makes me wonder, does everyone
> do this? Is there anyone else out there
> that operates on the principal of just
> ...


----------



## tbishop (Feb 28, 2012)

Where I'm located, if you do not tend to the bees at least every 10-14 days things become hairy quickly. The honey flows are not lining as they did in the past. In my location, putting too much room on drags the bees down(I know, this is not how it is supposed to work). The queens fail and the hive requeens itself, but the new queen doesn't work out. Mite bombs. Short intense honey flows occuring during the dearth. I don't tear into the hives like I did years ago, but I do pop the inner cover whenever I go into the yards on every hive.


----------



## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

A few of my favorite reference books and materials. Inspections are the only way to observe the health of your hives throughout the year, if your hives are honey bound, queenless, ready to swarm, etc and make decisions. Sometimes, when you inspect your hive you may need to go back in the next day to complete some maintenance. Do you belong to a beekeeping club?

My favorites:
Pink pages are golden. http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/
At the hive entrance. Check out Preparing for Winter and During the Winter chapter. http://www.biobees.com/library/general_beekeeping/beekeeping_books_articles/At the Hive Entrance.pdf
Videos. http://www.uoguelph.ca/honeybee/videos.shtml
Their many downloadable books. http://strathconabeekeepers.blogspot.com/p/the-beekeepers-library.html#basicbeekeeping Multiple downloadable books.

Uploadable guide books from archive.org

https://archive.org/details/practicalqueenre00pellrich/page/10
https://archive.org/details/cu31924003202276
https://archive.org/details/OriginalPhillipsEverettFranklinBeekeepingD6/page/n8
https://archive.org/details/beekeeping_for_all
https://archive.org/details/A_Practical_Manual_of_Beekeeping
https://archive.org/details/beekeepingincali100ecke
https://archive.org/details/fundamentalsofca42stan


Beekeeping Guide Books
https://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Field_guide_to_honeybees_and_their_maladies.pdf
http://www.biobees.com/library/general_beekeeping/beekeeping_books_articles/At the Hive Entrance.pdf
http://strathconabeekeepers.blogspot.com/p/the-beekeepers-library.html#basicbeekeeping Multiple downloadable books.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/honeybee/videos.shtml
http://biobees.com/library/general_...oks_articles/Quinby_mysteriesofbeek00quin.pdf
https://victoriancollections.net.au...m-media/534209022162ef0a845dc07c/original.pdf
https://thebeeyard.org/wp-content/u...ve_.And_.The_.Honey_.Bee_.Langstroth.1853.pdf
http://library.uniteddiversity.coop/Beekeeping/A_Practical_Manual_of_Beekeeping.pdf


Other beekeeping sites.
https://digital.library.cornell.edu/collections/bees
https://www.facebook.com/Historical.Honeybee.Articles/
http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/
https://nhbees.wordpress.com/tag/supercedure-cells/
https://www.keepingbackyardbees.com/10-reasons-beehives-dies-in-the-winter/
https://bees.caes.uga.edu/bees-beek.../honey-bee-disorders-honey-bee-parasites.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diseases_of_the_honey_bee
https://www.foxhoundbeecompany.com/beekeepingblog/what-is-a-queen-cup


----------



## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Wouldn't it be nice if we could glean all of the info we need about a hive from watching the entrance? Here is a book about that: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx7DrOGMiXtlV2MyNTJpN2NqeVk/view

Thanks to the previous poster for all those resources in one place! And for the posters before, sharing your perspective and approach. 

I note the number of foragers returning in 10 sec (I raise a finger for every group of 5, while I count 10 sec). And I note the # returning with pollen (out of 10).

For a split, that is raising its own queen, watching the entrance has been a reliable indicator of the state of the hive - queenless or good! the enthusiasm with which they are foraging, and seeing around 4/10 or even 5/10 with pollen, is a very reliable indicator that their queen is doing well. 

A large hive does not send clear signals. I can say that during swarm season, if you are counting returning foragers every day at the same time, you will see a drop in foragers the day after a swarm. But... even though a swarm leaves with something like half the bees, there are more bees just about to emerge, and many nurse bees just about to become foragers. So, in a week post departure, I don't see a big difference in the number of frames covered with bees for hives that swarmed vs hives that didn't. So I really try hard to check in swarm season in a timely way to detect that a hive swarmed - no more than 14 days between inspections. I really want to know if they swarmed, because I am only breeding from queens who do not swarm when given enough space.

And during the summer, I have watched pollen collecting very closely. In my area, once it gets hot, the bees collect pollen from about 8-9 AM and about 730-830 PM. But... a big hive apparently can collect more than they need, and then "skip a meal". I have seen large hives with as few as 2/10 foragers bringing in pollen, started to feel bummed that the queen is a dud - then found plenty of brood when I opened up. They just had enough pollen with 2/10 bringing it in. They also often had 15-20 foragers in 10 seconds too - so 90-120 a minute. That's the max possible, it seems, without dropping in lots of extra capped brood...

I aim to check production hives (with honey supers) about every 2-4 weeks, outside of swarm season. I don't want to lose steam with honey collecting, so I would want to know ASAP if they need a new queen due to a failed attempt at mating. And that's a black mark on their record, if they swarmed or superceded without successfully bringing in a mated queen - I want to work with hives that can start superceding in time to try again if she doesn't make it back. That trait appears to be heritable, can be selected for. So I'm selecting for it - but I have to know more about the state of the hive to know if the hive swarmed, is superceding, failed their one attempt to get a queen mated...

In a couple of years, I will trust my stock more, and I will have a couple of outyards that I am not using to select for breeder queens. So those ones will be once-a-month yards for sure.

But... I am able to quickly tell if a hive is OK based on a brief inspection, like after the 2nd frame or so. A well functioning queen results in a well-ordered hive. But that ability was gained by checking every 7-10 days for the couple years before. And if there is a problem, then I have to dig in more, and so I don't try to do "quick" inspections where I am relying on finishing a hive every 10 min. I would rather finish a hive as needed, as long as it takes - so I can't bet on not finding a problem! 

So it all depends on your goals for beekeeping, on your willingness to accept that you might miss a chance to save a hive. I would not recommend only checking a hive seasonally - as in, once a season - for someone with only 1 hive, or as few as 2. That's an expensive mistake, to not realize a hive is light on stores until they starve, or that they were queenless mid summer... 

I really don't like mystery losses, so I am motivated by fear to check more! That's not necessarily a positive...  Every inspection is a chance to lose a queen. I aim for that balance between getting necessary information (or lessons on a how a hive "works"), and leaving them bee...


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The honey flows are not lining as they did in the past.

In 46 years of beekeeping every year has been different. All you can do is average them out, keep records and base your guesses on past experience. i.e. if things are running early then expect things to be somewhat early the rest of the year, though sometimes they catch up a bit. And if things are running late expect things to be somewhat late the rest of the year though they sometimes catch up closer to normal as the year progresses. Droughts have been unpredictable throughout history. You have to be aware of what's happening in the present.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

A rule that tends to be true in most human endeavors is <minimal effort ='s minimal results>.

This rule also applies to beekeeping except under a certain circumstance. That circumstance, is that the beekeeper is uneducated in the ways of bees, and on average does more harm when he opens the hive, than good. 

So, how does the beekeeper become educated in the ways of bees? By spending time with the bees of course!! Opening the hive, seeing what bees do, learning. In the beginning will probably make a few screw ups. But it's learning.

Leave it alone beekeeping works, until it doesn't work. Which will bite nearly every leave it alone beekeeper eventually.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> A rule that tends to be true in most human endeavors is <minimal effort ='s minimal results>.....


OT, disagreed.
You here talk of the absolute terms.
Really should always factor everything in relation to the *time *spent per unit of something - the ultimate factor.

What does anything matter if tomorrow one to goes to the hospital and never comes back out? 
Appreciate your time first.
All else is secondary.

So, if spending no time on your bee maintenance generates you a bucket of honey - that is plenty.

IF spending your time with your bees *IS* the priority, who cares of the honey then?

Again, making living by making honey/selling bees is not compatible to making living by writing computer programs (and having few bees alongside).
Unsure why oil and water are kept being compared to each other.....
These are different chemicals.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

fadder said:


> IIs there anyone else out there
> that operates on the principal of just
> leave them alone?.


Yes!!! I just make sure they have plenty of room and keep supers cleared. Once colonies are setup the same fairly close average of what they do. Anything below average I'll tear down to see why, very low percentage.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

GregV said:


> OT, disagreed.
> You here talk of the absolute terms.
> Really should always factor everything in relation to the *time *spent per unit of something - the ultimate factor.


Good point Greg, time vs assetts is the critical ratio, something all commercial beekeepers think about and factor in, in order to get the maximum returns against investment, of both time, and assetts.

Me, I'm retired now and only have 320 hives as a retirement hobby. So i can afford the time to manage them pretty intensively, which I do. It certainly worked out last season, when i saw what some of the more or less leave it alone beekeepers in my area were harvesting, compared to what I was harvesting. Big difference and a good return on my investment.

If you look at some of the better commercial beekeepers like say, Michael Palmer, you will find they manage their hives pretty intensively. Course, they know how to do that fast, and they also know what is, and is not, needed. So they will not be wasting any time on anything not necessary. But what is needed, or what is going to get the beekeeper a better return, they will do.


----------



## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

Such an interesting thread. I find there is no "one way" to work with bees. I belong to 2 beekeeper's clubs. As secretary of one, I have an advantage of recording and transcribing the meetings. It's amazing what I have learned from other beekeepers who are experienced. One was a pig farmer, another is a farmer multiple varieties of peaches in his orchard, a president who has been beekeeping for 40 or more years. 

Personally I can't recall anyone advocating hands off beekeeping in the 5 years involved with honey bees and clubs. Observation, listening and hands-on beekeeping are all essential to maintain healthy hives. These aren't field bees living in clusters of rocks or old hollow trees but bees in boxes made by humans that require care and year around maintenance. Bee behavior can be established by the equinoxes. Days get longer, shorter, weather changes. In the winter they cluster and there is maintenance to assure they have ample stores to survive, spring is when they begin multiplying and foraging, summer is when they create honey and fall they begin preparing for winter. In today's world there are pesticides to deal with, varroa mites and all the diseases they carry. Untreated bees in the fall will be a dead hive in the spring.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

TehachapiGal said:


> Untreated bees in the fall will be a dead hive in the spring.


Really? Haven't treated since starting in 2001, and haven't bought bees since I stopped feeding in 2006. 

SMH!!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Untreated bees in the fall will be a dead hive in the spring.

And yet I haven't treated my bees since 2003 and they are not all dead by spring. Pesticides in July are my problem...


----------



## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

As far as I understand, the Varroa Destructor has spread throughout the U.S. Here in central California most colonies are treated. If not, they don't survive. I prefer to use oxalic acid and an unapproved yet to be acknowledged shop towel method. After opening a hive in early spring a few years ago and seeing my girls with deformed wing virus they're monitored and treated as needed. 

Mites are prevalent everywhere. Is there a reason why your hives are mite free?

Certainly you are by far much more knowledgeable than most beekeepers. I'm one of your fans and followers and a better beekeeper by following your advise.

http://www.stoppinginvasives.org/home/database/varroa-destructor


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

TehachapiGal said:


> Mites are prevalent everywhere. Is there a reason why your hives are mite free?


Virtually no hives are mite-free. 
No one claims to have mite-free bees.
They just don't die (not all of bees die).
Very old subject by now.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Just to fully explain TehachapiGal, in some areas people are keeping bees without treating for mites, in other areas they must be treated or as you say, they will die.

Nobody quite knows why, there has been much discussion over the years about if it is the kind of mites in the area, the kind of viruses in the area, the kind of bees, the climate, the kind of comb, or whatever. Of course, some of the beekeepers who found their bees can survive untreated like to think it is because they personally, are a bit smarter than everyone else. Ha ha. 

All these theories have been tested and no one answer has been found to hold true, recent beekeeping history is littered with dead hives of people who followed the advice given by people with treatment free ( TF ) bees, but it didn't work in a different place. And there are even TF beekeepers who moved their hives to a different area, then lost them all. It does seem TF beekeeping is location specific but again, nobody knows why, even if they like to think they do.


----------



## TehachapiGal (Mar 5, 2015)

The discussion here is a topic related to hands-off beekeeping. Bee diseases do not fall into the category of an old subject.They represent a cause of colony collapse along with other factors like herbicide and pesticide use.

I live close to a freeway where hundreds of semi's loaded with bee hives pass through on their way to almond groves in late January to Arvin, Bakersfield and the surrounding cities, north to groves up that way where queen, bee package sellers are located like Oliveras Bee Company. Every year there are reported swarms at the local truck stops where the semi's gas up. Some of them almost certainly carry diseases and Africanized. I've met at least 1 family that embrace Africanized bees and rent them out to commercial pollinator companies. If an apiary has mites and refuses to treat them then they are part of the problem not part of the solution. 

With this said some of us work at controlling swarming through inspections and splits, queen replacement, etc. However, there is nothing to stop field bees from making their way into hives. It happens. A hive welcomes a bee carrying lots of pollen. It's altogether possible for them to harbor diseases.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

TehachapiGal said:


> As far as I understand, the Varroa Destructor has spread throughout the U.S. Here in central California most colonies are treated. If not, they don't survive. I prefer to use oxalic acid and an unapproved yet to be acknowledged shop towel method. After opening a hive in early spring a few years ago and seeing my girls with deformed wing virus they're monitored and treated as needed.
> 
> Mites are prevalent everywhere. Is there a reason why your hives are mite free?
> 
> ...


Look at my FB post on 10/18/19. Colonies are keeping mites below threshold. 
Varrao don't kill bees, the viruses associated with Varrao kills bees. Which I do not have! So, the Billion dollar question is why dont the bees have the virures? Nutrition difference of not feeding? 
Whom else can I buy bees or Queens from that' has not been raised on any kind of syrup for 10+ years? Surely cannot get Southern raised Queens to perform the same, even the TF ones.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Until you KNOW that your bees have the traits, such as mite biting, required to survive the mites and the diseases that the bees are exposed to in recent decades, "Hands-Off" beekeeping is just cruelty to animals - sacrificing bees to the mites. 

Responsible beekeepers are using IPM - Integrated Pest Management methods until they can be sure that the bees can make it on their own. This basically means that we admit that the mites are here, they are here to stay,_ but we are going to torture them and never let them get a foothold!_ We economize a regimen of light, moderate, firm, and occasionally a heavy treatment (usually formic acid about August 15th) instead of going "treatment-free". This approach has been documented to deliver more bees each Spring.

No doubt that in the long run, "Treatment-Free" beekeeping will be better, but until you have bees (and beekeepers who are fully armed with the know-how) that can handle today's stresses, both man-made and natural, IPM is the best approach.

To learn more about IPM, check out www.scientificbeekeeping.com


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> And yet I haven't treated my bees since 2003 and they are not all dead by spring.


Mike,
Would you credit your location for the major reason you need not treat?


----------



## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> Just to fully explain TehachapiGal, in some areas people are keeping bees without treating for mites, in other areas they must be treated or as you say, they will die.
> 
> Nobody quite knows why, there has been much discussion over the years about if it is the kind of mites in the area, the kind of viruses in the area, the kind of bees, the climate, the kind of comb, or whatever. Of course, some of the beekeepers who found their bees can survive untreated like to think it is because they personally, are a bit smarter than everyone else. Ha ha.
> 
> All these theories have been tested and no one answer has been found to hold true, recent beekeeping history is littered with dead hives of people who followed the advice given by people with treatment free ( TF ) bees, but it didn't work in a different place. And there are even TF beekeepers who moved their hives to a different area, then lost them all. It does seem TF beekeeping is location specific but again, nobody knows why, even if they like to think they do.


I have been reading a lot of papers recently where studies were done with bees that had survived without treatment for years. They transported some of these hives to other regions and found they died just as fast as local bees. It's odd. We know that there are several races of bees that have developed resistance, Africanized for example, and apparently Russian Far Eastern bees. If there are any genetic causes of resistance it should spread very rapidly into feral bees. 

Something else is going on. I suspect that something else is a combination of flooding the landscape with commercially produced, heavily treated queens every year, and, migratory beekeepers bringing loads of severely infected bees back form Cali every year. I doubt either one of those two things will change soon.

Hopefully people like Randy Oliver will succeed in producing queens that are commercially useful and also more resistant. If they change the queen equation, so that commercial queen producers are mailing out resistant queens instead of mite-bombs-in-waiting, we might see some progress.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tim Ives said:


> So, the Billion dollar question is why dont the bees have the virures? Nutrition difference of not feeding?
> Whom else can I buy bees or Queens from that' has not been raised on any kind of syrup for 10+ years? Surely cannot get Southern raised Queens to perform the same, even the TF ones.


Oh i forgot to add that to the list. Some people think the secret is not feeding sugar. 

But they forgot all those wild hives that died of mites didn't get fed sugar LOL


----------



## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Last internal inspection June 29, 2019. We'll see. I'm not pretending this is the best way. It is experimental and I am making observations about different hive designs and entrances.



fadder said:


> I see people talking about weekly inspections, about rotating boxes
> and it makes me wonder, does everyone
> do this? Is there anyone else out there
> that operates on the principal of just
> ...


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Oh i forgot to add that to the list. Some people think the secret is not feeding sugar.
> 
> But they forgot all those wild hives that died of mites didn't get fed sugar LOL


They didn't all die, wild swarms is where my bees originated from. Lol


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sure, but that 99% of them died despite having natural comb and not being fed sugar, demonstrates there is more to it than that.

My own reading indicates that a large part of it is genetics. Not the whole story either, which we know because of the way they die when moved to another area. But there is so much anecdotal evidence people report of good results once they get the right genetics, seems to me it must be an important factor.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

It wouldn't surprise me if diet isn't playing some kind of role. The type of forage differs markedly from one area to another, and is implicated in disease resistance generally. Mono-floral diets are probably none too healthy.
LJ


----------



## Skeggley (Jul 25, 2015)

Being in an area where ‘hands off beekeeping’ is possible due to not having the pests in the area it’s still recommended to do regular inspections as this is the difference between having bees and keeping bees. A hands off approach is still viewed as irresponsible but for different reasons. Swarm prevention is the main reason for me breaking the brood nest apart. There’s already too many tree colonies in the area stealing native hollows displacing the local fauna. 
Yeah, i know, how do I cope....&#55357;&#56899;


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

AR1 said:


> We know that there are several races of bees that have developed resistance, Africanized for example, and apparently Russian Far Eastern bees.


Africanized bees dont produce winter fat bees. Varrao will starve!


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Skeggley said:


> Being in an area where ‘hands off beekeeping’ is possible due to not having the pests in the area it’s still recommended to do regular inspections as this is the difference between having bees and keeping bees. A hands off approach is still viewed as irresponsible but for different reasons. Swarm prevention is the main reason for me breaking the brood nest apart. There’s already too many tree colonies in the area stealing native hollows displacing the local fauna.
> Yeah, i know, how do I cope....��


Must not have Small Hive Beetles. Contastly letting those out of jail will quickly become a problem!

As far as swarm prevention. Don't let core broodnest area become backfilled and keep the young wax builders depleted dramatically reduces swarming.


----------



## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Tim Ives said:


> Africanized bees dont produce winter fat bees. Varrao will starve!


One of Seeley's papers on bee genetics says that low levels of African genetics are now in the feral bee populations he studies.


----------



## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Agree


little_john said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if diet isn't playing some kind of role. The type of forage differs markedly from one area to another, and is implicated in disease resistance generally. Mono-floral diets are probably none too healthy.
> LJ


----------



## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Agree


GregV said:


> Virtually no hives are mite-free.
> No one claims to have mite-free bees.
> They just don't die (not all of bees die).
> Very old subject by now.


----------



## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Hey, Tim,

could you share some of your thoughts and techniques? Hives you use, etc?

thanks,
Thomas


Tim Ives said:


> Really? Haven't treated since starting in 2001, and haven't bought bees since I stopped feeding in 2006.
> 
> SMH!!


----------



## Skeggley (Jul 25, 2015)

Tim Ives said:


> Must not have Small Hive Beetles. Contastly letting those out of jail will quickly become a problem!
> 
> As far as swarm prevention. Don't let core broodnest area become backfilled and keep the young wax builders depleted dramatically reduces swarming.


Nope, no beetles. Clear hive mats will let you terminate those beetles in situ I’ve heard.
In the past I’ve done preemptive swarm splits, and brood box honey frame removal beginning of spring and replacing the frames with wax foundation, breaking up the brood nest to keep the waxers busy. This year I’ve left it for later on and am reaping rewards of an increased spring honey crop.
There’s a feral tree colony in a tree out front that’s been there for over 20 years, issues swarms every 3 years. Truely hands off. 
Hopefully our bio security and compulsory hive registration keep those nasties out, not sure I could handle all the extra work....


----------



## Rhop (Sep 13, 2018)

I think running test hives is the best way to attempt this hands off approach. Like a few others said, inspections help catch problems early so they can be corrected. Also these hives would be more prone to varroa if you aren’t breaking the brood pattern w splits


----------



## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

I'm finishing up year 6, and what I've found is that it is best not to quantify or have an absolutely inflexible set of methods.


----------



## tbishop (Feb 28, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >The honey flows are not lining as they did in the past.
> 
> In 46 years of beekeeping every year has been different. All you can do is average them out, keep records and base your guesses on past experience. i.e. if things are running early then expect things to be somewhat early the rest of the year, though sometimes they catch up a bit. And if things are running late expect things to be somewhat late the rest of the year though they sometimes catch up closer to normal as the year progresses. Droughts have been unpredictable throughout history. You have to be aware of what's happening in the present.


My history with bees goes all the way back to the summer of 1963.. The honey flows are totally different today. With the elimination of pastures, our honey flows are now different. I'm fornuate to be located near locust groves which can fill the hives up in May. The clover flow is now almost gone. Then we have heavy flows that can occur in late July and early August. Then if we are lucky we have the goldenrod/aster flow in September. Back in the 60's, our honey came in before July 1st. Not today


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The honey flows are totally different today.

Yes. People stopped using sweet clover for hay, the farmers started killing every weed in the fields, the ditches are sprayed with 24D, the famers here have stopped growing much alfalfa, and even when they did grow it, they started cutting it as soon as it started to bloom.


----------



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Farmers use to also use Sweet clover as a nitrogen fixing cover crop in rotation with corn and other crops before herbicides became the norm.

Alex


----------



## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Not just kilocharley:
"...cruelty to animals"
"the mites are here, they are here to stay, but we are going to torture them and never let them get a foothold!"
I guess we humans advocate for cruelty against some and not others. I have yet to find good fly food and cat swatters (might be a market gap?)
Obviously I can see why we selct some and not others for our support but I don't think there is really good moral grounds for one over the other. Ie suggesting that someone is abusing their livestock (bees) by not abusing the mites just seems like a spurious argument.
Now, being concerned that someone is abusing their neighbor's bees and forcing them to abuse not only their mites but also yours, because you are unwilling to abuse your own mites, is something responsible beekeepers, whether tf or not, should be aware of....
For me, weekly inspections are not needed. Knowing what is going on, what should be going on, and how to tell quickly of things are off track, so I know who to inspect is important. (eg mating nucs that don't get checked in time may become lw if all did not go to plan.) Knowing how and when to do what, does, in my experience, come from checking more often than needed in the beginning. So until you know you can be successful checking less often, I'd suggest checking more often. Besides, that's the fun part! 🙂
Happy beekeeping everyone!


----------



## jnqpblk (Apr 7, 2015)

fadder said:


> I see people talking about weekly inspections, about rotating boxes
> and it makes me wonder, does everyone
> do this? Is there anyone else out there
> that operates on the principal of just
> ...


Me, I find generally speaking, my gals do far better on their own than with me attempting to ultra manage anything "I" want them to do and whenever "I" want them to do it. Here, SW WA, my bees do according to the seasons, and are simply far better at doing when they should. For instance last year, prior to the 5 month dearth which began mid May, many of my hives had backfilled their upper deeps with the winter crowns by mid may. No way I had any knowledge that would happen in an area where we typically get a blackberry flow in June, but didn't due to the dearth of 2018. And yes, I even added supers to get the non-existent blackberry flow.

Hives too distant for me to micromanage, I often find them better off than those I do micromanage.

But at the same time, I am keeping bees because of my compulsive beekeeping addiction, not for the purpose of making money from pollinating or honey harvesting. The 24 gallons of honey this year was just as much a bother as it was a benefit to me. I'm just in it for the putzing. But for a beek (ie. "not" me) wanting to send bees to the almonds from here, it essentially requires one to be feeding both pollen sub and sugar water, at a time when un-managed hives or feral hives are reducing down their brood chambers, (and in my hives now, there is near no brood, not what one wants for almonds).

My major manipulation in late winter/early spring, when I do not reverse the 2 deeps, but add the excluder directly above the brood chamber and supers above that.

And in the summer/fall, entrance reducers go on during the robbing/YJ season. And if my hives do not defend/protect themselves, "oh well, didn't need them genes in my apiary anyway" Ain't my job to do all in my power to protect from robbers. And when bearding begins in spring, that is my sign to remove the reducers.

Hive management?: Just depends! What exactly are you striving for with your hives? Can/will they do it better without you, or do you need to intervene to pull it off?

If ya want a good nectar flow brought in, ya may just need to help your bees get built up in the spring prior to the flow by feeding sugar water and pollen sub, and here, during a time when spring weather is wet and cold and restrictive to bees going out in it.

Are your bees your animal husbandry force, managed by you, or are they just some feral critters you happened to have supplied a house for, and are to be left alone?


----------



## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

jnqpblk said:


> But at the same time, I am keeping bees because of my compulsive beekeeping addiction, not for the purpose of making money from pollinating or honey harvesting.


Good write-up, jnqpblk... and I think there are many of us here on Beesource who identify with your compulsive beekeeping.


----------



## 123989 (Jul 30, 2018)

I don't break my brood Chambers down. I may check the top super and see if another is needed. Other than that, I only go down to the brood chamber twice a year. Once in the spring and then once in the fall and add Formic Pro strips. I don't try to stop swarming, I just try to have enough traps around to catch them


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>One of Seeley's papers on bee genetics says that low levels of African genetics are now in the feral bee populations he studies.

People brought African queens and most every other kind of honey bee queens into the US back in the 1800s. Then the USDA was breeding crosses of African and European bees and sending them all over the US back in the 60's with stock they got from Kerr who gets blamed for the whole AHB issue. These were shipped to Madison and Laramie and other places in the US by the thousands. So my guess is that African genetics will show up most anywhere in the US and has been there for more than a century with a new infusion half a century ago.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Re: 'hand's off' beekeeping ...

All of my hives are 100% 'hand's off' between Late October and early March. It's the only hard and fast 'rule' I've adopted with beekeeping.

The singular exception to this is if I should spot a colony not putting any bees into the air on one of those sunny Winter days we occasionally get, when fair numbers of bees enjoy a clearance flight - then I'll take a peek to see if anything's wrong. Otherwise the hives remain untouched.
LJ


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

As for me ans my bees, I tend to check them as close to the 1st, the 10th, and the 20th of each month during the Spring, then slow it down somewhat after the nectar flows taper off. 

This is not to say that if I'm feeding a drop and I spot a colony or 2 with abnormal beehaviour, I won't check things out immediately (unless it is too cold to do so). I do. This may save a colony, or I might combine two or even 3 weak colonies and make it over Winter because I did.


----------

