# Necesity of Bottom bar in Foundationless frames



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are people doing something similar in Warre' hives. My concern is how to separate the boxes...


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## tim8557 (Feb 6, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> There are people doing something similar in Warre' hives. My concern is how to separate the boxes...


Thanks Michael. I consider you a guru on this topic so I was hoping that you would see it and respond. It is not too late for me to add bottom bars and I'll do any subsequent frames with them as well.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

tim8557 said:


> I recently added a medium super with the idea of transitioning to foundation less. So far nothing. My question is, do I need to install the bottom bars? Right now I am using a top bar with the tongue depressor, the two sides (legs) but no bottom.


They won't stop before the next top bar and you'll have a mess on your hands. Ask me how I know.


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## tim8557 (Feb 6, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> They won't stop before the next top bar and you'll have a mess on your hands. Ask me how I know.


Thanks JW....Between you and Michael, that settles the question for me.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> They won't stop before the next top bar and you'll have a mess on your hands. Ask me how I know.


If this does ever happen to you Tim, it's not so difficult to slice between the boxes with piano wire or similar.


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

yep. gluing the boxes together is the issue. You don't have to worry about it in a top bar, as that is only one box deep.

rob


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Hops Brewster said:


> If this does ever happen to you Tim, it's not so difficult to slice between the boxes with piano wire or similar.


Right. I used a long thin knife. But on the off chance that the connection is really good on the bottom and not so good on the top bar... you might end up with a nice large slab of comb collapsing down into your brood nest leaking honey and damaging brood, bees, and maybe the queen. I didn't realize how well they were held and figured the top bar connection would be better than the one on the bottom and that they'd pop free if I wiggled them enough. To be fair it was not a frame without a bottom bar... it was a top bar from a TBH that I transferred over and let them build out. Same difference though. You don't want to have to go slicing through brood and bees with wire or knife everytime you get into a hive.


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## tomcollins (Jun 22, 2015)

Tim, I built warre hives with only top bars. supposedly I would be able to twist and lift to separate the boxes. I had my doubts and sure enough the combs broke high up in the top box, killing bees and spilling honey, what a mess' I then went to plan b which was to use small music wire to cut between the boxes. that works great if you don't mind cutting through the critters inside along with some brood and honey. I disliked it so much that I redid the whole thing and added complete frames. I have also been convinced that it is not a good practice to remove the ladder comb from between the boxes.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Whenever I picture the piano wire "cheesecutter" method, I can't help but imagine a queen getting cut in half...


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## Nu Bee (Jun 1, 2015)

tomcollins, Is the 'ladder comb' the comb built from the bottom of the frames in the top hive connecting the tops of the frames in the bottom hive? 
and if so, 
... please tell me why it is not a good idea to remove the ladder comb from between the boxes... I am new to all this and during my first inspection (after adding a second hive box), I did as I was told and removed everything that was not within frame limits...
Em


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

tim8557 said:


> I recently added a medium super with the idea of transitioning to foundation less. So far nothing. My question is, do I need to install the bottom bars? Right now I am using a top bar with the tongue depressor, the two sides (legs) but no bottom.


There's a discussion about adding foundationless supers here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?314070-Bees-not-going-into-new-top-boxes


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

Two reasons for having bottom bars: the first has already been mentioned - sometimes they don't attach to whatever is below the frame .... but at other times they most certainly DO !
A second reason is to prevent the side bars from pulling inwards when lacing the frame with wire - or in my case, 60lb monofilament fishing line. Personally, I wouldn't consider running foundationless brood combs without such support.
LJ


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

I have quite a few of such frames and none of them are attached to the bottom board or the frames bellow. The only disadvantage I see is that you cannot extract them. The big advantage is that it is very easy to spot swarm cells on them when you tilt the box and that they are very easy to built.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

It reads like the conclusion is rather plain to see...make up whole frames and drop them in. No worries.

Every time I've tried to make a top bar-only Miller queen frame, or other such comb, either a disaster resulted, or I waited too long and had a capped honey comb for breakfast.


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

I'm running all foundation less frames and if you use deeps it's best to have standard wired frames.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I have no problem with bottom bar because I simply do not use it. All my "frames" are foundationless, bottom-bar-less and often side-bar-less (top bar). My bees seldom attach comb to the bottom - they usually keep bee-space. At the beginning, when I used some full frames, I saw many times that bees do not attach comb to the bottom - therefore, I start using bottom-bar-less "frames."


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

That's awesome. If you don't intent to extract they're perfect. You spare money and effort.

Thanks for sharing.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

.
Well, here's another side to the same story:










As you can probably see, at the moment this comb is only attached to the frame along the very edge of the popsicle sticks. It has not yet been drawn out to the sides, not onto the top bar itself. Yet the bees have already started filling those cells ...

If it were not for the supporting wires (fishing line), that comb must surely be at risk - even the slightest gust of wind might be enough to flex that soft comb like a hinged flap, and drop it onto the ground.

Sure - in a month or two that comb will be secure enough without any support - but right now it's extremely vulnerable.

Give me a bottom bar and supporting wires any day ...

LJ


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

asd said:


> ... If you don't intent to extract they're perfect...


I am a hobbyist, I do crush-and-strain, not a problem


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Little-John said:


> .
> Well, here's another side to the same story...


 Essentially, my bees learned how to use top-bars only and we have very little problem with attachment etc. Once bees got the idea (top bar, straight comb), they follow the rules. They do not need any starter etc. At the beginning I tried many different "starters" - all of them helped somehow, but never 100%. I had anecdotal situation, when placed top-bar starter up - bees build perfect comb without any starter AND they did not use starter on the upper side to build the comb upwards. For medium boxes, I have very little problems related to comb's attachment-detachment. Deep box is another story - it can be done without anything, but short side bars can substantially improve stability.


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

cerezha said:


> I am a hobbyist, I do crush-and-strain, not a problem


That's a smart thing to do for a hobbyist. I'm a hobbyist too. This year I started to use wired(bought them so). One thing about foundation less frames is that in Spring you get tons of drone combs no matter where you put those frames(at least that's what happens in my location). I get much better results on nucleus hives as they are in the build up phase.









However I plan to use those drone frames in the honey supers. Does this happen to you too?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

asd said:


> ... you get tons of drone combs... Does this happen to you too?


 It is interesting question. I remember discussing it somewhere on beesource. So, since I am a hobbyist, I have a little respect to beekeeping dogmas  I have so called "drones comb" with large cells, but that comb never occupied by drones. These large cells normally filled up with nectar in the first place. Than, they somehow magically shrinks and used for normal brood. Drones cells (not comb!) are on the periphery of the worker brood, next to pollen and honey. Usually, it is in the lower corners of the "frame." On the left picture, drone's cells are clearly visible at the bottom-left side of the "frame." Large cells above drone's filled up with uncured nectar - bees will move it in permanent storage later on. Another "frame" is full of nectar, no drones.


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

cerezha said:


> It is interesting question. I remember discussing it somewhere on beesource. So, since I am a hobbyist, I have a little respect to beekeeping dogmas  I have so called "drones comb" with large cells, but that comb never occupied by drones. These large cells normally filled up with nectar in the first place. Than, they somehow magically shrinks and used for normal brood. Drones cells (not comb!) are on the periphery of the worker brood, next to pollen and honey. Usually, it is in the lower corners of the "frame." On the left picture, drone's cells are clearly visible at the bottom-left side of the "frame." Large cells above drone's filled up with uncured nectar - bees will move it in permanent storage later on. Another "frame" is full of nectar, no drones.


I will definitely try top bar only frames this year(in the next batch of nucs).


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

cerezha said:


> Than, they somehow magically shrinks and used for normal brood.


Please explain. Your contention is that they use drone sized celled for worker brood by some means of magic?

And I can see from your pictures that (like my foundationless frames with only top bars) they connect around the edges to the sidewall and it's SO easy to pop a comb right off of the top bar. 

These types of combs are collapsing disasters waiting to happen:


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> Please explain. Your contention is that they use drone sized celled for worker brood by some means of magic?...


 Yes, magic. Seriously - I just do not know. Unfortunately, I am quite disorganized and do not keep track of "frames." Therefore, I can not explain rationally what I observe. I observe that (1) I never ever had a "frame" full of drone's brood; (2) most of my "frames" started from large cells, which originally filled with nectar. (3) Later, I can see "frames" with normal working brood in approximate area, where nectar-frame was, but I never sure exactly is this the same "frame" or not. Essentially - I do not care, because I am happy how things are and have no intention to change anything


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> ...These types of combs are collapsing disasters waiting to happen:
> View attachment 19468


I am in SoCal and my beehives are 70% full sun. I had collapsed honey comb accident twice. In both cases, I just left comb inside the beehive and bees repaired the damage, so next time I was able to remove the comb (with some difficulties). In general, such size for top-bars I would not recommend; medium size is perfect, not a problem. Top-bars are cool and I really like them, but they are not for serious apiary - they are for small beekeeper-hobbyists. For myself, I do not see any advantage to have full classical frame. But, it's my personal choice.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

duplicate, sorry


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> ...And I can see from your pictures that (like my foundationless frames with only top bars) they connect around the edges to the sidewall...


Not really. If you keep them without inspection for month or so - than, yes, they will make a few bridges to the side wall at the top of the "frame." I have special tool to cut these attachments (thin knife will do). It is really not a problem. The design of my top-bars is so, that they are not propolized much and easy to lift. So, if I feel slight resistance, I just use the tool to cut those bridges. They always are at the top of the "frame" and easy to cut. 

Nevertheless, bees are very creative creatures! Sometime, they can create a really elaborate network of combs, which many would cal "such a mess." Currently, my bees decided to interconnect three side "frames." I will wait, when they cap all honey, than - remove, crush-and-strain. I do not need perfect combs!


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

When having powerful colonies in late Spring(before swarming season and being the main flow) and want to break the brood nest in order to avoid swarming and get some drawn combs you get a lot of drone frames. That's a fact in my area.
The best frames are drawn in 5 frame nucs. Unfortunately that comes starting from June only when I start making queens. This foundation less management means moving frames of drones to the upper boxes. I think they might be suited for storing honey. I'm still in the process of adapting my management as I expand my apiary.

However I don't intend to use foundation. I just need to find the optimal method. Give me another one or two years.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Well, I have a couple of hundreds pictures of my frames and I have none, which is more than 10% drones - it is magic! In SoCal, we have no winter break and we (my urban situation) have no really big flow. With drought, things are even more complicated. Bees are active all year around - they stretch their "power" over entire year.


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

Well, this proves once more that location has a huge influence regarding practices in this domain. As a beginner you have to spend at least 3-4 years before you get into the right tune. The most important things are: overwintering populations(how much), flows(how much and when), queens, nucs, when to feed etc.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Absolutely!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That's what a bottom bar is for. To keep the bees from building the comb down to the top bar below and attaching it. Enjoy learning why things are the way they are, but someone already did that so the rest of us can get along keeping bees. But knowing why, and finding out by doing what was already done before is fine too. Enjoy exploring with bees.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

cerezha said:


> Top-bars are cool and I really like them, but they are not for serious apiary - they are for small beekeeper-hobbyists. For myself, I do not see any advantage to have full classical frame. But, it's my personal choice.


I'm very glad to read the above ...

I would also add - imo (of course) - that top bar beekeeping is actually quite an advanced form of beekeeping which, because it has the potential for more things to go wrong than with framed combs (cross-combing, collapsed comb etc), it is best undertaken by those who have already gained some working experience with the keeping of bees in a more conventional manner.

Likewise, the management of Long Hives requires more skill than 'standard' vertical hives, as the brood nest frequently requires manual expansion; feeding is a little more difficult; and more care needs to be taken with top insulation over winter, and so on ...

But the irony is that although Top Bar Beekeeping in Long Hives is the most demanding of all styles of beekeeping, yet it is the very style being promoted by certain 'gurus' - in an almost 'religious' way - to complete beginners: often on grounds of minimum financial outlay, and usually accompanied by dubious claims of it being 'more natural' than other forms of beekeeping. 

And so on the various beekeeping forums we keep seeing the same cries for help for solutions to collapsed comb and cross-combing, and for colonies which die out over winter for lack of warmth, or in spring for lack of feeding.

I personally think that there is a good case to be made for people to be encouraged to learn the basics of their craft on conventional hives - perhaps even with foundation being used, but certainly on fully framed combs - and then, after a year (say) of such experience, to then move on to more demanding styles of beekeeping, should these be their ultimate goal.

LJ


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Little-John, I am very interested in learning more about your use of fishing line instead of wire. What size line do you use? Have you had any durability problems with it? It certainly seems easier than wire, how do you string it? Since the fishing line appears to be larger diameter than wire does it interfere with the cells in the comb? How do you get it tight? I know that is lots of questions, but I'd be grateful to hear more about it, installing it, and pros and cons you have encountered.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

" Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
Top-bars are cool and I really like them, but they are not for serious apiary - they are for small beekeeper-hobbyists. For myself, I do not see any advantage to have full classical frame. But, it's my personal choice."


Little-John said:


> I'm very glad to read the above ...
> I would also add...LJ





sqkcrk said:


> That's what a bottom bar is for...


Original question was is bottom bar necessary in foundationless frames? My answer was no, it is not necessary and I provide evidence. Foundationless frames with or without bottom bar can be used by anybody. I do like "long hives" and I also love the "natural beekeeping!" I feel, that "traditional" way of beekeeping is not for me, so I do things differently and illustrate it with my pictures - you can decide for yourself. 

What I learned from my experience is that bees are tremendously adaptable and can adapt to many situations. They also are learning - MY bees know how to build straight comb on the stick and do not make much cross-comb (some exemptions applied). If somebody wants to reproduce my approach (not recommended), s/he needs my-style hardware AND my bees to begin with AND it must be in SoCal with similar weather/etc conditions. Bees from the package will not do well in my place because my bees are mites-resistant (hopefully) and "regular" bees probably will not stand such mite's level. Bees are amusing creatures!


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

JConnolly said:


> Little-John, I am very interested in learning more about your use of fishing line instead of wire. What size line do you use? Have you had any durability problems with it? It certainly seems easier than wire, how do you string it? Since the fishing line appears to be larger diameter than wire does it interfere with the cells in the comb? How do you get it tight? I know that is lots of questions, but I'd be grateful to hear more about it, installing it, and pros and cons you have encountered.


Good questions ...

Firstly, the tools I use:










If you're 'wiring' a lot of frames, then a side-bar drill template saves a lot of time. You will notice that the fluorescent yellowy-green (which anglers didn't want to use, so I bought the lot, cheap) 70lb B/S fishing line is a much larger diameter than the grey 65lb B/S line next to it. The Breaking Strain of the line used actually isn't that important, as it's only tensioned to somewhere around 5 or 10 lbs (I guess) - it's the larger diameter that's important, so that the girls can't get their mouthparts around it. I have heard reports of thinner line (20-30 lb ?) being used, which the girls have chewed through successfully ... !

Durability and acceptance - no problems whatsoever. I first heard about it's widespread use on a Scottish beekeeper's forum, and it sounded right to me. It's very cheap to use, doesn't cut into the wood and, if you should ever need to cut away the line (say - to remove a nice queen cell) - a quick stroke of a utility knife is all that's required.

This shows how the drawing pins (thumb tacks) are placed. The Scots wind 3 turns around the pin - I use 4 or 5, then press the pin home with plumber's pliers (shown in the first pic). Never had one pull out yet.










To 'wire' the frame - simply feed the line through the holes as shown - press 2 drawing pins halfway into the side bars about an inch away from an 'end' hole using your thumb, or the pliers. Then, at the free end of the line, wind 4(ish) turns around the pin, and press home. Then pull each strand of the line in turn to take up the slack. Wind the line around the first and second fingers of your right hand, and pull the lines tight - individually, if necessary. With the tension still on, make 4(ish) turns around the remaining pin, then pull the line down along the side-bar where it can be trapped between the thumb and first finger of your left hand. The right hand is now free to pick up the pliers and press the second drawing pin home.
Snip off the excess - job done. I hope that makes sense.

A modest amount of tension on the lines is all that's required - it's not necessary to be able to play music on them ! A plink and a plonk is quite sufficient.

'best
LJ


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

.
It was while looking for old photographs for my reply to the fishing line query, that it suddenly occurred to me that on this thread we may all have been talking at cross purposes ...

As a former scientist, one of the main attractions of beekeeping for me, is to try and understand WHY bees behave in the way they do. Now with regard to comb building, the bees will always try to build as long a comb as physically possible - because such a comb will enable them to move easily from one end of it to the other. That is one reason why I don't have much time for the claims of 'natural' beekeepers who place their top bars across the hive's width - for that is the shortest dimension - whereas bees would much prefer to build across the longest dimension - which, in any rectangular cavity, is across the diagonal. Which is why, if allowed free reign, bees will automatically build such cross comb.

With vertical hives, the situation is no different - the bees would prefer to build one long comb from top to bottom - which is why, if they are able to do so, they will attach the bottom of one comb to the top bar of another. For they see the lower top bar simply as an obstruction to be dealt with. Unless, of course there is a bottom bar in place. It is the gap between the bottom bar and the top bar below it which causes the difficulty for them, for it is (or should be) one bee-space in height.
In such a space, bees cannot form the chain which is required in order to build comb - thus they are thwarted in their ambitions, and duly accept that space as being 'unbuildable within'.

There is however, one exception to this situation - and this is where the bees reach *what they see as being* the bottom of the comb. For some reason, bees do not want to attach the bottom of their comb to anything beneath it. Perhaps this is to prevent ants from crawling up the comb, perhaps it's so that the comb can swing more freely and vibrate - there have been many theories put forward to explain this.

*So - bottom bars are NOT necessary where a frame will only ever be used in a single story hive, or where - in a multi-story hive - it will always be located at the bottom.*

Indeed, when I made some 12" deep foundationless frames recently (for an odd-ball hive), I looked for a way of providing support without stringing wires across, so as to avoid using a bottom bar. This was one idea I played with:










But - when it came to actually making them, I decided to stay with what I knew to work in practice:










LJ


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