# A Tale of Two Hives



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

As I now have several methods of enabling Warre-length frames to co-exist with the much longer British National frames, last year saw me re-visiting the 300x300mm format by building a handful of Warre-style boxes in which I then over-wintered two colonies.

Although these two colonies have very different histories, their behaviour is almost identical - more on this in just a moment - and I can't help wondering if the hive format might possibly have something to do with it. But for now I'll just put this down to pure coincidence.


The first stack housed my 'Number One' colony (meaning it has all the qualities I could possibly wish for) - which is a couple of years old now - the queen of which I'll be breeding from in just a few weeks time:










The second colony arrived here as a somewhat hesitant swarm last year - a small (orange-sized) swarm first arrived and set up home, and then it left. 3 days later it returned and decided to stay. A further 3 days later it was joined by what I assumed to be the rest of the swarm - by which time it was far too big for the box it had originally chosen, so I made-up a Warre-style stack and transferred it into that. I've seen this 'swarming by installments' only once before, many years ago. It's unusual and very curious. Don't know why they do this.

Anyway, being so strong it wasn't long before a third box was required, and it was in that 3-box configuration that this colony over-wintered.










Yesterday I transferred the colony from the above Warre-style stack into a 24" Gallup/Doolittle Hive, the depth of which I've extended to accommodate the extra-deep Ukrainian frame. :
This turned out to be quite a protracted operation, requiring a detailed inspection to see what was what, the siting/levelling etc of the new hive, and finally cable-tying extenders to most of the frames. In total it took two hours from the first opening-up of the stack to the final closing-up of the new hive - but not once did I need to use smoke, and not once did the bees hassle me in any way. This behaviour was near enough identical to that of my Number One colony in that they're either unaware of my presence, or are completely indifferent towards it.

So - two colonies with very different origins - both housed in 300x300mm vertical stacks, and both can now be rated as pussy-cats. A coincidence ? Well, maybe - that's what it seems to be right now - but I'll proceed to use those now empty 300x300mm boxes to start-up another colony, and see if this behaviour is repeated.
'best,
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I very much envy you LJ in that you can spend your time freely tinkering with these hives.
I guess I should enjoy some of that with age - good or bad, but it will happen! 

For now I plan to build another CVH set over this upcoming summer (compatible to my #1). 
I like the 300x300 CVH setup a lot and want more of it.

I wish I could spend my summer vacation doing exactly that - building equipment - but the family will not appreciate my egoistical inclinations. Got to plan some travel instead.  

I hear some noises about seeing the Grand Canyon this time around.  
Rotting peaches and failing mini-nucs while being away give me vacation anxiety. LOL


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## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

A question for other Warre Hive users.....

I introduced a 3LB package of bees to my (first) Warre Hive on 4/9. All appears to be going well and they're building out comb.

I made a change to the hive as was constructed / offered : the original plan was for a four (4) chamber hive - but I swapped out one of the chambers and replaced it with a feeder box. So - I introduced the bees to the three (3) chamber hive - but I've cut it down to just two since things are just getting started. 

*My question:* Should I invest in that fourth box now (?) - or simply wait and invest in another hive in total? 

How long would you anticipate before I'll need more than three (3) brood/honey chambers? 

Oh...btw....I'm in Florida and there's no lack of blooms etc.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Eagle1 said:


> *My question:* Should I invest in that fourth box now (?) - or *simply wait and invest in another hive in total?*


With multi-box hives you don't really think in term of "another hive".

What you should think about is:

I need X "roofs"
I need X "bottoms"
I need X * N boxes

Where

X is the maximum possible # of stand-alone colonies you foresee handling
N is the maximum possible # of the boxes per a colony.
It is also somewhat strange to think of investing in *another *box.
Think in batches - at least 3-5 boxes at one time to make the hassle worthwhile (either making or buying).

Most likely you want to just add another full set (a "hive" you call it). Just getting a set of boxes without corresponding roof/bottom makes little sense.


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## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

GregB said:


> With multi-box hives you don't really think in term of "another hive".
> 
> What you should think about is:
> 
> ...


Understood....but I was wondering if I'd actually need a second hive this year. The concept of adding a second hive (and thereby securing that additional box....) is understood easlily enough, I was wondering if I should expect to _need_ an entirely new hive this year - or could expect to get thru this first year with just the four chambers. 

I was trying to get a sense of how quickly I can expect a 3# package of bees to expand.......


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Eagle1 said:


> Understood....but I was wondering if I'd actually need a second hive this year.


Don't get into habit of thinking - I can sit on ONE hive and that is it.
If you do mean ONE hive - this automatically means you need to have at least two sets (one set being a spare stand-by).

Even with one hive, there will be times when you temporarily will have TWO hives.
This means extra roof, extra bottom and some extra boxes (even if 1-2 only).

Plywood slabs can act as temporary top/bottom pieces if in a pinch.
Thus you can get away temporarily with just the 2-3 extra boxes.

Does not matter so much how "quickly" you will run out of space - it maybe weeks or maybe months (most likely 2-3 months).
Just assume you WILL run out of three boxes this very season and they will swarm away on you unless measures are taken.

PS: this is assuming 300x300x300 internal box size (or so about) - this is not very much for an exploding colony.


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## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

GregB said:


> Don't get into habit of thinking - I can sit on ONE hive and that is it.
> If you do mean ONE hive - this automatically means you need to have at least two sets (one set being a spare stand-by).
> 
> Even with one hive, there will be times when you temporarily will have TWO hives.
> ...


There we go. This is the insight I was looking for: "Just assume you WILL run out of three boxes this very season and they will swarm away on you unless measures are taken......you will run out of space - it maybe weeks or maybe months (*most likely 2-3 months*)"

It's my intention to stop at two hives with any splits beyond that be sold. I'm not in this for commercial reasons "per se" and I'm not looking to "grow out" into rows of hives/bees. I'm also working on a budget and with this being the first hive I've started, I was wondering how quickly I could anticipate this first install filling out available space - hence my question.

If I'm going to max out space in the first hive somewhere mid-summer - probably best to invest in a second hive now so it can be prepped and ready.

The internal dimensions of the boxes are 12x12x8" btw. Thanks for the feedback.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Eagle1 said:


> I'm not in this for commercial reasons "per se" and I'm not looking to "grow out" into rows of hives/bees.


Like most hobbyists around here.

Just keep in mind - once you figure out the formula for yourself, the summer time is usually about trying to contain the internal pressure from spilling over (i.e. swarming). 

This is where extra stand-by pots and pans come in handy - even if temporarily only.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Just keep in mind - once you figure out the formula for yourself, the summer time is usually about trying to contain the internal pressure from spilling over (i.e. swarming).


Isn't swarming a more "natural" way to propagate your colonies?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BEE J said:


> Isn't swarming a more "natural" way to propagate your colonies?


Natural - yes.
Manageable - not really.
Meaning, are you sure you will be right there, that *very *day and that *very *time AND you *catch *the swarm too? 
LOL
I am never sure.
In fact, I am pretty sure I will NOT be there and then and catch them too.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> In fact, I am pretty sure I will NOT be there and then and catch them too.


If anyone will it's you greg!😄😄 


GregB said:


> Manageable - not really.


That's what I'm wondering. I know Fedor Lazutin did it, but it could be tricky...


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

BEE J said:


> That's what I'm wondering. I know Fedor Lazutin did it, but it could be tricky...


Tricky is an understatement. If you watch the YouTube piece on skep beekeeping in Germany (it is an old video) you will see that back in the day the beekeeper sat all day and monitored each hive for swarming. He knew the signs and attached the net bag to the front of the hive at exactly the right time. It is a wonderful video to watch, totally fascinating IMO.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> Tricky is an understatement. If you watch the YouTube piece on skep beekeeping in Germany (it is an old video) you will see that back in the day the beekeeper sat all day and monitored each hive for swarming. He knew the signs and attached the net bag to the front of the hive at exactly the right time. It is a wonderful video to watch, totally fascinating IMO.


Wow! That would take some patience! I don't think I can do that. Maybe if you put up a bunch of swarm traps in the area you could catch most of them.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

I can offer if you have 12 x 12 x 8 inches, 3 will not get you thru the first summer/season.
seems a fairly easy thing to make , these boxes.
I would also look at the price of a "cheap" table saw, "harbor freight" against 6 boxes (1 more for this hive , 4 for the next with 1 more feeder box) 12x12 should allow 2 boxes per 8 foot board, or 1.75 if this dimension is ID.

quick search, of 1x10 pine board








1 in. x 10 in. x 8 ft. Premium Kiln-Dried Square Edge Whitewood Common Board 914908 - The Home Depot


Every piece of 1 in. x 10 in. x 8 ft. Premium Kiln-Dried Square Edge Whitewood Common Board provides you with the perfect solution for all your project needs. These boards combine the highest grade available



www.homedepot.com





20 bucks so 10 per box plus screws and paint.
at some point making is a nice plus if you have some wood working skills.

if anyone in your family has a set up a contractor type, one Saturday at his/her shop can get you the parts cut out and only have screws and paint to then do.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> I can offer if you have *12 x 12 x 8 inches*, 3 will not get you thru the first summer/season.


Yes, these are tiny boxes actually.

These are pretty close to mine - I have *6 boxes* pre-built for my single vertical hive - just by the very minimal default setup.
Even then I feel I need to make more boxes asap for standing by.

More importantly - when one is running custom equipment, running to the closest bee store, grabbing few generic Lang boxes, and dumping your newly swarmed bees into is not an easy option.

IF you run custom - you must plan ahead and cover your butt.
A pretty silly situation is where you rush into building new boxes (while no tools/materials are even available yet) - while you keep some poor bees taped in some cardboard box.

IF one is getting into the bee-ownership, some rudimentary planning/risk assessment is a part of the game.


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## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

Ordered hive #2 today


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## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

Question.....can you do a hive split.....with the second hive 3-4' from the original (?) or should the second hive be a good distance away?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Eagle1 said:


> Question.....can you do a hive split....*.with the second hive 3-4' from the original *(?) or should the second hive be a good distance away?


Sure.


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## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

GregB said:


> Sure.


Okay. Thanks for that confirmation....then I'll proceed with plans to reorient the hive stand (pictured) so I can have a hive on each end by moving the cider blocks to the ends and putting a couple new ones in the center for support  

Next will be introducing a Cordovan Queen into the old hive and changing it's genetic makeup. I'd actually wanted to start with Cordovan's, but nobody in my area supplied them and there was concern about shipping via USPS....so I went with Italians sourced locally (that I picked up directly).


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Eagle1 said:


> ..so I went with Italians sourced locally (that I picked up directly).


How did the Italians do?


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## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

BEE J said:


> How did the Italians do?


They're doing fine....far as I can tell. They're building out comb in the top box - if I had to guess, they've got it 3/4's full (give or take). I'll be taking a closer look at the individual bars in a day or so. They're very even tempered. I've not been stung once....and being new to all this, I've used the jacket/veil when inspecting/lifting the bars/combs - but last time I was actually barefoot and in shorts (LOL) and still not a sting.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Eagle1 said:


> I went with *Italians*


Now that you mentioned this fact - it makes even more sense to have a full stand-by setup for a spill over.
You will need it.


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## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

GregB said:


> Now that you mentioned this fact -* it makes even more sense to have a full stand-by setup for a spill over*.
> You will need it.


Sorry....but you're gonna have to decipher this....
Are you meaning an entirely new hive?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Eagle1 said:


> Sorry....but you're gonna have to decipher this....
> Are you meaning an entirely new hive?


The Italians tend to grow relatively *big*.
So your existing setup was not a good match for what was coming anyway.
Now you are better prepared - make two hives for the summer season.


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## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

GregB said:


> The Italians tend to grow relatively *big*.
> So your existing setup was not a good match for what was coming anyway.
> Now you are better prepared - make two hives for the summer season.


Good insights. My first choice was to purchase a horizontal top bar hive from a local manufacturer. However, they experienced some labor issues associated with the COVID matter - so I went looking for alternative manufacturers - all of whom were considerably more expensive - so I selected the Warre type hive - vertical as opposed to horizontal - and smaller by design/intent than the horizontal types. 

Just spoke with a supplier of Cordovan Queens and laid out the timing, pricing and potentials to secure a queen from them - all very doable....should I actually need to do a split this year. Everyone's general thinking is that you should be good for the first year with package bees....but I suspect the hive design skews that thinking some. In any case, groundworks been laid that will allow me to move if need be.Right now...it's all about keeping everyone healthy and happy


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

that close you will get heavy drift back to the parent.
I would leave it till the split, then put a split on each end.
then neither is in the old location and they may just split better right to left.

GG


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## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> that close you will get heavy drift back to the parent.
> I would leave it till the split, then put a split on each end.
> then neither is in the old location and they may just split better right to left.
> 
> GG


Good insights. I'm only going to prep the new hive. It'll "cure" sitting in the garage till needed. 
I'll probably adjust the hive stand however - get it ready and move the current hive to the left side (as pictured from the front) - with the right side to remain empty.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Eagle1 said:


> They're doing fine....far as I can tell. They're building out comb in the top box - if I had to guess, they've got it 3/4's full (give or take). I'll be taking a closer look at the individual bars in a day or so. They're very even tempered. I've not been stung once....and being new to all this, I've used the jacket/veil when inspecting/lifting the bars/combs - but last time I was actually barefoot and in shorts (LOL) and still not a sting.


Sounds like their doing great! I guess we'll be sure once they go through a winter. Cool on minimal protection- your a "barefoot beekeeper"   !!! It sounds like your rolling. way to go Eagle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

Need a confirmation......
Saw (and killed) this guy outside the hive a short while ago.
Can I assume I've met my first hive beetle?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Eagle1 said:


> Can I assume I've met my first hive beetle?


Of course not.

Can you google "small hive beetle" and look at the pictures? 
Now go ahead and do it.


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## Eagle1 (Oct 9, 2021)

GregB said:


> Of course not.
> 
> Can you google "small hive beetle" and look at the pictures?
> Now go ahead and do it.


Thanks for the computing instructions but I'm more than proficient at it, had already looked at their images and they looked similar. Thought I'd ask here for clarification. 
So this wasnt a hive beetle? Good.


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