# bought 10 frame hive with bees only had 7 frames



## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

I bought a hive last year from a lady that thought she wanted to get into beekeeping, but changed her mind for one reason or another.

I believe she got her hive in the spring of 2014, and didn't do much with it. I purchased her hive and equipment in the summer of last year (2015). 

When I opened the hive for the first time, I found out she had removed some frames and for whatever reason (she was scared??) she didn't put them all back in.

My hive has survived this winter, and I checked them out today. They seem to be doing well, although it is hard to tell since the frames are all glued into the hive and I don't want to attempt to pull out the frames and risk damaging their home.

Here's a picture I took today:

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/7v3aq0r2n553odm/AADPr3Dp1eWCpfWuEgG7W80Wa

I've started a blog for bee record keeping purposes, and put more pictures I took today there: jasonsbees.blogspot.com

I am a novice beekeeper, but I think I have a plan and would like some feedback.

1) add a new deep (box B) on top of the current deep (box A)
2) let the girls build up the new hive body
3) add another super (box C) when box B is built up, but move box A to the top and B to the bottom so I would have (from Top to Bottom): A, C, B

The goal here is to end up with the messy hive box on top with only honey in it. I can then take it off the hive, move it to my shed and attempt to salvage what I can out of there. I figure I can probably get a couple of frames of honey out of it that can be put back into the hive, but that might be optimistic as the frames are randomly spaced out. I might be going about this all wrong, which is why I am asking for some advice!

I would appreciate advice with reasoning behind it (IE, try doing X because of Y) so I can better understand what I am doing.

Thanks very much!


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

So you bought a hive last year and just now opened it? Seems your plan had a few holes in it as well as missing frames.

Keep moving the messy frames up so the brood gets moved out of it. Then when it is brood-less cut it out and let them clean up the mess. 

And pay better attention to your hives moving forward. Also find a mentor or a local club to join quick.


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

EastSideBuzz said:


> So you bought a hive last year and just now opened it? Seems your plan had a few holes in it as well as missing frames.


No. I opened it the next day. Thanks for your productive and welcoming response.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

The comb that isn't in any frames, keep. Like eastbuzz says, let the brood out first and tie it or rubber band it in a frame. They will fix it.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Or, add a deep now, a deep later and supers as needed. By mid to late summer they should have moved out of the first brood box and started filling it with winter stores, just remove the screwed up box and clean it up.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

stan.vick said:


> Or, add a deep now, a deep later and supers as needed. By mid to late summer they should have moved out of the first brood box and started filling it with winter stores, just remove the screwed up box and clean it up.


Yea what he said. 
Sometimes you do something that isn't ideal cause of the situation. Imo, by late summer when that box is mostly empty I'd take out the **** up comb (some old boxes in my apiary have f.u.c. Scrawled on them)


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

jlaudiofan said:


> No. I opened it the next day.  Thanks for your productive and welcoming response.


I love this post.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

I don't see many bees in that box - and they don't even seem to be working the three frames on the right and the one on the left. It's a pretty dismal hive.

I would just leave them. If they die, clean up the comb when it has no bees on it, if they survive, wait until the queen moves to a higher box, then move this box above a queen excluder so they stop laying brood in it.

Personally I would give them a cheap mite treatment, like a few rounds of oxalic acid, but I wouldn't spend any time or money on them otherwise


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

What is in between the deep you added on top and the original box? Queen excluder?









Honestly, that hive doesn't look like it needs the space it has, let alone another deep to deal with. I'd take it off and get them build up before adding more room. Then get them building up and eventually the bottom deep will be empty or nearly empty and you can just get rid of that mess all at once instead of going the "cut out" route. Make sure they're a functional colony of bees before investing a bunch more time and money into them though. Good luck, she probably didn't put the frames in correctly to begin with so they got drawn fat and had bridge comb. Likely hadn't read anything about bees or beekeeping other than toss them in a box and walk away. So you get the fix her mess!


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Build two Nuc boxes, and buy a cheap unframed plastic queen excluder, and 10 additional frames. 
Make a 5 over 5 stack. 
Move the wild comb into the bottom nuc box, fill the straight comb in the upper box.
Monitor the upper box for the queen moving up. 
When you have her located her upstairs, insert the QE (it will hang over, or cut it to fit).
Let the brood downstairs hatch out (21 days).

Remove the wild comb, replace with straight comb, remove the QE.

Melt the wax out of the wild comb. Don't expect much recovery, as it will be mostly cocoons which soak up wax.

You can speed this process up with a queen clip -- shake and smoke the colony through the QE, the queen can be captured in a clip and forced to live above the QE for the "brood hatch" interperiod.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> What is in between the deep you added on top and the original box? Queen excluder?


Looks like he has a QE -- so he can reverse the boxes, and shake and smoke *all* the bees off the wild comb. Capture the queen on the box with clean comb using the QE, temporarily stack the messed up box upstairs, after 21 days the bad comb can be pulled and gotten rid of.

A small colony (such as shown) will often abandon brood trapped away from the queen. No big loss, really.


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## awebber96 (May 28, 2012)

I think these sort of problems are fun. Lots of ways to skin the cat. Your idea will work. So likely will other suggestions. There is nothing inherently unhealthy with this comb, so you can take your time to correct the problem. 

I think moving the frames outward toward the sides of the hive (rather than upward into a super) will also allow the brood to hatch and, if you time it right, maybe you can get it pulled before it gets refilled with eggs, honey, or pollen.


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## Mr. Biggs (Jul 20, 2015)

Jason, I took a look at your blog photos. 

The fact that you have bees in a box after 2 years and they are easy to handle is a good sign. 

I have a few questions for you.

How are your current flows (What do you have coming into the hive at this time) and what is your typical temps/weather patterns for your area at this time? 

In your last picture what box is the messed up one?
Is that an excluder that you have on between the boxes?

Are these your only bees?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

JWChesnut said:


> A small colony (such as shown) will often abandon brood trapped away from the queen. No big loss, really.


I like your nuc idea, though, JWChesnut. I wouldn't want a colony that size losing any of its existing brood... but I am obviously in a different zip code.


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

Sunday Farmer said:


> I love this post.


=)


jwcarlson said:


> What is in between the deep you added on top and the original box? Queen excluder?
> 
> (snip)
> Good luck, she probably didn't put the frames in correctly to begin with so they got drawn fat and had bridge comb. Likely hadn't read anything about bees or beekeeping other than toss them in a box and walk away. So you get the fix her mess!


There isn't anything between those two hive bodies. I think she spraypainted the hive purple while the telescoping cover was on, so it's just raw unpainted wood. I do have two queen excluders which I might end up using, but I would prefer to let the bees sort themselves out. I don't have my heart set on honey this year. Wait, that's a lie. I really do want honey, but I won't steal it from them unless there is PLENTY to go around.

I don't mind cleaning up the mess, it'll give me lots of hands on experience =)



Mr. Biggs said:


> Jason, I took a look at your blog photos.
> 
> The fact that you have bees in a box after 2 years and they are easy to handle is a good sign.
> 
> ...


Right now there is creosote blooming, as well as desert mallow and several other wildflowers. The temps have been high 40's at night and around 80 during the day. Next week looks like mid 40s/mid 80's as well. The little bit of winter we do have out here gets cold for sure, but it's brief. We will have lots of sun until around july when the monsoon season starts up and we get some rain, and the desert greens up and blooms like crazy then.



Mr. Biggs said:


> In your last picture what box is the messed up one?
> Is that an excluder that you have on between the boxes?
> Are these your only bees?


The purple one is the messed up one.
No excluder, just raw wood from when previous lady spraypainted box with the top cover on.
Yes, these are my only bees. 

I know there aren't many bees in there right now, but I added the white super on top so they won't want to swarm. I'd rather let them build up and then split them when I know that there are enough honey stores for 2 nucs to overwinter, if that is even possible this year.

I know that there will be plenty of forage around the monsoon season. I had a swarm move in underneath the dashboard of my boat last spring (added those pictures to the blog), and after about a month I had a local beekeeper volunteer to help remove them. It got quite messy, and we salvaged what comb we could (enough to rubberband 6 frames full) and ended up with about a gallon of honey from comb that wasn't salvageable (for the bees at least). We did not find the queen, and they later swarmed to a creosote bush 30 feet away while I wasn't home. I came home and heard them buzzing when I got out of the truck... Ran to put my veil on and get a box, but they took off before I could catch them.

Point of that story is they built up REALLY fast, and they were quite gentle bees as well. I believe that my current hive, assuming they aren't sick, will probably build up pretty quick starting soon.

Thanks very much for all of your replies! I feel better about my plan now. I will definitly try and save as much comb as I can when I get into that box.


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## Sky (Jul 7, 2015)

the ol 10 combs on 7 frames trick.... looks like good sticky fun.


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

Sky said:


> the ol 10 combs on 7 frames trick.... looks like good sticky fun.


It will be a sticky situation indeed!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The first thing I would try is to get one or two of the outside frames out. They don't look that bad and it is unlikely there will be brood in those combs. Throw a couple of foundation frames in their place (probably will not get used). Use the box on top or get a nuc box and block off the exposed frames of the bottom box if you use the 5 framer. Put the one or two frames you got out of the bottom box in the top box right in the center. Add three more frames with foundation. If you are using a full size box block in the empty space on the sides. If there is no nectar coming in you have to feed as much as I hate to do it so they will draw out the foundation and raise brood. The bees will go in the top box, I guarantee it. As they draw out the comb keep adding new frames. If you are using the nuc size box you will have to add another nuc (5 over 5) pulling up at least one drawn frame. When you get 3 boxes high drawn and 75% filled the bottom box will not have brood so it can be removed, cleaned up and repopulated if you want.
I like using mediums and this would be an opportune time to change from deeps to mediums. Kill two birds with one stone so to speak. The instant you see nectar available I would stop feeding.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Acebird said:


> The first thing I would try is to get one or two of the outside frames out. They don't look that bad and it is unlikely there will be brood in those combs. Throw a couple of foundation frames in their place (probably will not get used). Use the box on top or get a nuc box and block off the exposed frames of the bottom box if you use the 5 framer. Put the one or two frames you got out of the bottom box in the top box right in the center. Add three more frames with foundation. If you are using a full size box block in the empty space on the sides. If there is no nectar coming in you have to feed as much as I hate to do it so they will draw out the foundation and raise brood. The bees will go in the top box, I guarantee it. As they draw out the comb keep adding new frames. If you are using the nuc size box you will have to add another nuc (5 over 5) pulling up at least one drawn frame. When you get 3 boxes high drawn and 75% filled the bottom box will not have brood so it can be removed, cleaned up and repopulated if you want.
> I like using mediums and this would be an opportune time to change from deeps to mediums. Kill two birds with one stone so to speak. The instant you see nectar available I would stop feeding.


ACEBIRD!!! Stop giving weird advice. Focus! Quality over quantity!!! You are making my head hurt!

A weak hive like this is not turning 3 boxes high any time soon, is more likely to turn into 0 boxes. Changing to mediums would be disruptive, I don't even know how you would do this without cutting out the comb? How is that good for his weak hive in any way? What are you talking about???

An argument could be made for pulling the 3 inner frames in one chunk, and dropping that into the bottom of a 5 over 5 nuc to get the queen into a higher box as quickly as possible, with proper number and spacing of frames above, so i'll give you credit for that, since I think that's what you were trying to say, although I can never fully understand your posts.

It seems like you are also suggesting putting a nuc on top of a 10 frame? Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with that. If you have a nuc it would be better used for the arrangement above.


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

I have though about trying to remove the outer frames, but with them not being a strong hive I don't want to cause any disruption. 

I do have another question though. The hive removal I did, I ended up with a fair amount of pollen mixed in with honey. It does not smell fermented at all even though it's from last year. Is this something I could feed to the bees if I water it down a little? I have a jar feeder. Otherwise I will probably end up throwing it out.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Other than the one sleeve were it looks like an extra comb between the two frames, the rest is more than likely bur comb for honey storage and probably doesn't extend much further down than what you see. Shouldn't be to difficult to trim the combs back so you can push the frames together. If the free comb is brood band it into a frame then fill out the box with the missing frames. You can feed the honey back without diluting.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

tanksbees said:


> A weak hive like this is not turning 3 boxes high any time soon,


Who said anything about soon. Three boxes high would be ten frames total and not all at once. Using mediums is even less of an expansion so God only knows what you are thinking about. I suspect if the colony survives they will expand quite rapidly. What makes you think the hive is so weak?


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

Delta Bay said:


> Other than the one sleeve were it looks like an extra comb between the two frames, the rest is more than likely bur comb for honey storage and probably doesn't extend much further down than what you see. Shouldn't be to difficult to trim the combs back so you can push the frames together. If the free comb is brood band it into a frame then fill out the box with the missing frames. You can feed the honey back without diluting.


OK, you've talked me into it. I have tomorrow off, I will at least give it a shot. If I feel like I am going to damage brood, I will stop. Will also put the honey pollen in the feeder. 

Thanks!


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

.... and now it has 8 frames!

Got off of work earlier than anticipated =)

Two of the frames I put back in were ones that I pulled out and took off all the cross built comb. They both had one messed up side, and one beautifully drawn out side.

I had closed up the hive while I took the two frames over to garage for cleanup, and about 5 minutes later I came back to replace those frames... The bees were doing the space measurement on one of the other frames I put back in. Pretty entertaining, reminds me of the movies where people are hanging on to each others feet for dear life 

I also put the pollen honey in the entrance feeder so they have some food. The comb I removed was 99.98% empty. Might have been a 1/8 teaspoon of honey left.

There was also quite a bit of activity at the hive entrance, and I think it might have been orientation flights??? They would hover a within a foot or two of the entrance, then take off. Will post pics after the phone charges up.


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

I don't know why it's so amusing seeing them hang onto each other =)









The bees on the right side, are they cleaning out the cells? I think there might have been bees hatching today!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I think you are golden now. Put those frames and the honey you said you had in a box on top. Feed if you have to but you might not have to. If you are using an 8-10 frame box block off the side with a follower board so you only have 6-7 frames in the center and make sure the frames are tight together. They will go right up in it.
With the temperature swings you are having I would put an insulation board on the top cover.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Acebird said:


> Who said anything about soon. < THE ASSUMPTION IN A CONVERSATION IS THAT SOME SORT OF REASONABLE TIMEFRAME IS INVOLVED
> 
> Three boxes high would be ten frames total and not all at once. < WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???
> 
> ...


..


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I find photos from the top of a box to be very misleading about how many bees are in the box. Video is a better indication when you can see the instant a cover is pulled off.

In the fall of 2014 this hive was presumed to be queenless and I was told it would not survive but it went on to the spring of 2015 and gave me not only a split but the most honey we have ever harvested.
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/2014 Fall Hive/DSCF7203_zps686ba37d.jpg


Tanksbees I may not be doing a good job of communicating what I am trying to say but it is a know fact that someone is incapable of listening if they are yelling.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Acebird said:


> In the fall of 2014 this hive was presumed to be queenless and I was told it would not survive but it went on to the spring of 2015 and gave me not only a split but the most honey we have ever harvested.
> http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/2014 Fall Hive/DSCF7203_zps686ba37d.jpg


That hive has a full complement of drawn frames and bees on every frame. Very different situation.


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

Acebird said:


> I find photos from the top of a box to be very misleading about how many bees are in the box. Video is a better indication when you can see the instant a cover is pulled off.


You're right. I will try to get video next time I open the hive. I need to grow an extra arm to hold the camera


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

tanksbees said:


> That hive has a full complement of drawn frames and bees on every frame. Very different situation.


The most entertaining part about Ace's statement is that the hive was "presumed" queenless and he was told that it wouldn't survive by people on here. Now... the consider the source of information available to Beesource members when they made this assessment. It's a referendum(b) on his beekeeping skills that he could not ascertain or could not be bothered to ascertain if his colony was queenless or not. The fact that it obviously was queenright and survived the winter somehow makes Ace a master at internet bee diagnosis, whilst not being able to tell if his own hives are in order or not.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> The most entertaining part about Ace's statement is that the hive was "presumed" queenless and he was told that it wouldn't survive by people on here. Now... the consider the source of information available to Beesource members when they made this assessment. It's a referendum(b) on his beekeeping skills that he could not ascertain or could not be bothered to ascertain if his colony was queenless or not. The fact that it obviously was queenright and survived the winter somehow makes Ace a master at internet bee diagnosis, whilst not being able to tell if his own hives are in order or not.


I came to the same conclusion, but wanted to only call out Acebird in this thread on the points that might lead the original poster astray.

We could go on endlessly about Acebird, but at the end of the day he is a lost cause, and we have a novice beekeeper who could use some good advice, and maybe doesn't understand yet that Acebird does not give good advice.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jlaudiofan said:


> I need to grow an extra arm to hold the camera


I have the same problem. It requires another person or a tripod. And then it takes eons to up load the file. I am not that motivated.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

tanksbees said:


> We could go on endlessly about Acebird, but at the end of the day he is a lost cause,


:applause: :lpf:

Jlaudiofan......you have been warned!


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## Buzzed (Oct 26, 2014)

Sunday Farmer said:


> I love this post.


I was looking for a like button.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

jlaudiofan said:


> .... and now it has 8 frames!
> 
> Got off of work earlier than anticipated =)
> 
> ...


Thanks for the follow-up and pictures. Seems like you made the best of a "bad" situation. If you get a chance post some more pictures in a couple of weeks to compare to the first "mess".


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Acebird said:


> I have the same problem. It requires another person or a tripod. And then it takes eons to up load the file. I am not that motivated.


You can get a chest mount that takes an iPhone, GoPro, etc. - they work well.

Uploading is a pain unless you use an iPhone, you just click upload to youtube and it does everything on it's own.

What is really neat is the slow motion feature on the iPhone 6 and above, you can see lots of things the bees do that are happening too fast to see - like grooming, or bees crashing into each other in mid-air.


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

thehackleguy said:


> :applause: :lpf:
> 
> Jlaudiofan......you have been warned!


Acknowledged 



Groundhwg said:


> Thanks for the follow-up and pictures. Seems like you made the best of a "bad" situation. If you get a chance post some more pictures in a couple of weeks to compare to the first "mess".


I am going to do my best to remember to at least take pictures any time I open my hive. Documentation is great for looking back and referencing what has been done and what effect it had.



tanksbees said:


> You can get a chest mount that takes an iPhone, GoPro, etc. - they work well.
> 
> Uploading is a pain unless you use an iPhone, you just click upload to youtube and it does everything on it's own.
> 
> What is really neat is the slow motion feature on the iPhone 6 and above, you can see lots of things the bees do that are happening too fast to see - like grooming, or bees crashing into each other in mid-air.


I'll have to look for one of those. I might be able to make one that my phone holster can clip on to. Some Android phones also have the slow motion, like mine. I will have to try it out on the bees 

The pollen / honey mixture that I put in the feeder yesterday is almost gone, the girls are eating it up. There was only about a half a cup there, which tells me I should probably feed them some more. I will give them a pint of sugar water when it's empty, although I don't really like the idea of sugar water. It'll probably hold them until the pollen really starts going, which should be very very soon.

Thanks for the info all, really appreciate it!


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Also in the above list find a local club to join. 

When you are in a pinch and need some eggs to make a new queen etc having someone local for a quick hand or a frame of brood will be a life saver. Reach out to the lsit below and find some guys local to you.

If there is no club local start one. That is how my club started a couple of us did not want to drive to Seattle anymore and pay the stupid toll over the bridge and we formed Snoqualmie Valley Beekeepers. You can do the same if there is not one. Strength in numbers get some local help I know they are out there.

http://www.bees-on-the-net.com/arizona-bee-clubs/
https://www.azbeekeepers.org/
http://www.aridlandhomestead.com/so-you-wanna-be-a-beekeeper/
http://tucson.com/business/local/ar...cle_ed1bcb5a-527b-5224-941b-e14076b235f4.html


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

jlaudiofan said:


> Acknowledged
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Without being able to do an inspection, it's hard to say what they need.

Maybe a mite treatment, maybe some sugar water, maybe some pollen patties.

With a hive that dwindled like that, I would imagine they either swarmed or have heavy mite load, or a queen problem.

Hard to give advice, especially if it involves spending more money on them, might be better to let things run their course


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

EastSideBuzz said:


> Also in the above list find a local club to join.


I've been in the Tucson Beekeepers Facebook group for about a year now. I like to think if I was in dire need, one of them will help me out. I will also check into the ones you listed. Thanks for the list!



tanksbees said:


> Without being able to do an inspection, it's hard to say what they need.


Now that I have gotten in there more and saw what is going on with the comb structure, I may be able to get into the brood frames and see what they are doing. I thought about it the other day but didn't want to leave the hive open too long as it was starting to get a bit windy.

Need to track down some good rubber bands to stick those loose brood combs into an empty frame!


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

Got into the hive today and was able to remove all but the middle frame. That one is a mess and I didn't want to damage any brood or the queen by fiddling with it. I added a couple more pictures on the blog, but they are basically more pictures of the same. I did find some capped honey that looked new (it was surrounded by open cells with liquid... Honey? Nectar??) but I was not able to find brood. The frame in the middle has nearly a whole frame worth of comb on either side so it's hard to tell.

I am a little worried. I think I will make up some honey patties, I heard mixing sugar and honey works pretty well. Want to make sure they have enough food until the flow starts (all kinds of things are budding up right now!!).

I thought I would make up those patties and place them on newspaper on top of the inner cover, is that usually a good place to put feed?


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Seems like they are probably queenless

Do they roar loudly when you open the box, and run around in all directions?


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

tanksbees said:


> Seems like they are probably queenless
> 
> Do they roar loudly when you open the box, and run around in all directions?


Nope. If i blow smoke across the top of the hive when open, they buzz and run around though (I would too if I was a bee).


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

jlaudiofan said:


> Nope. If i blow smoke across the top of the hive when open, they buzz and run around though (I would too if I was a bee).


Interesting, but not definitive.

The thing to do at this point would be to put a frame of eggs and nurse bees from another hive in, and see what happens. See whether they raise a queen.

Or just let nature take its course.


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

tanksbees said:


> Interesting, but not definitive.
> 
> The thing to do at this point would be to put a frame of eggs and nurse bees from another hive in, and see what happens. See whether they raise a queen.
> 
> Or just let nature take its course.


I don't think anyone has queens for sale locally yet (looks like mid april or so) and this is the only hive I have. So I will have to do the wait and see, I suppose. I will set aside some money for a new colony, and hope for the best (and prepare for the worst).


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

jlaudiofan said:


> I don't think anyone has queens for sale locally yet (looks like mid april or so) and this is the only hive I have. So I will have to do the wait and see, I suppose. I will set aside some money for a new colony, and hope for the best (and prepare for the worst).


That's a good plan. The reality is you don't have much to lose. You have some old grandma bees in a messed up box, and maybe no queen. When the hive "doesn't make it", it just means the bees get old and die, and their are no new bees to replace them. It's not cruel, if you think about it.

They might make it, or not, time will tell. 

Put your money and time into getting good solid hives and keeping them healthy, not saving weak ones.


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

tanksbees said:


> That's a good plan. The reality is you don't have much to lose. You have some old grandma bees in a messed up box, and maybe no queen. When the hive "doesn't make it", it just means the bees get old and die, and their are no new bees to replace them. It's not cruel, if you think about it.
> 
> They might make it, or not, time will tell.
> 
> Put your money and time into getting good solid hives and keeping them healthy, not saving weak ones.


I agree. 

Though it would be sad if they died out, it would give me a chance to clean up the hive and start fresh. They have always been gentle bees but if they die out, it was for a reason. And not being able to fully inspect the hive has been making me feel like a pretty worthless beekeeper


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

Opened up the hive today. More bees in there than previously. Updated my blog. Here's a picture:









Also added a honey/sugar patty on the top of the inner cover. One of the bees was doing a funky buzzing thing. Made a video of it:
https://youtu.be/10d160Gt4Ms

Was she marking the honey so others would "find" it?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

From your blog:


> Once they start to draw out the other frames in the brood box, I will put the super back on.


IMO this prolongs your problem. Now that you have those outside frames out plug up that space and put the retrieved frames in the box on top over the bees. Only use five frames in the top and block off the rest. Essentially that would be a nuc (5 over 5). They will go up if they have nectar or feed. When they fill three of the frames on top add another box and they will go up again. By the time they get the third box 80% full there will be no more brood in the bottom box and you are off.


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

I was able to remove the one wild comb today, and wired it into a foundationless frame. Now all the frames are removable, and I was able to squeeze a 9th frame into the bottom super. I pulled out two of the "not too bad" frames, scraped off the excess / burr comb, and put those in a 2nd hive body on top. I also gave them a pint of sugar syrup, hopefully that will encourage them to build up some more. 

We are getting ever so close to a major bloom here (creosote, mesquite and palo verde). I am quite satisfied with the progress of this hive so far =)

Also saw brood in there, which is a good sign. Means there is a queen doing her job!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

jlaudiofan said:


> I was able to remove the one wild comb today, and wired it into a foundationless frame.


Good you removed it and cleaned things up, however it is likely that the "wild" comb will be mostly drone comb. As the hive is small and struggling at this time, keep the "wild" comb on the outside of the broodnest, so you have all worker cells in the broodnest area which they need at this time. Later when they are stronger they may decide to raise drones.
But frankly you may be better to chuck this drone comb.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jlaudiofan said:


> Now all the frames are removable, and I was able to squeeze a 9th frame into the bottom super. I pulled out two of the "not too bad" frames, scraped off the excess / burr comb, and put those in a 2nd hive body on top.


Be careful of too many empty frames that a small colony cannot defend. If you now intend to keep the bottom box as part of the hive then maybe you have too many empty frames by adding the second box. What was in the two frames that you put in the top box?


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

Oldtimer said:


> Good you removed it and cleaned things up, however it is likely that the "wild" comb will be mostly drone comb. As the hive is small and struggling at this time, keep the "wild" comb on the outside of the broodnest, so you have all worker cells in the broodnest area which they need at this time. Later when they are stronger they may decide to raise drones.
> But frankly you may be better to chuck this drone comb.


Roger that. I'll keep an eye on that comb, I did put that one in the new super so it's not down in the brood right now.



Acebird said:


> Be careful of too many empty frames that a small colony cannot defend. If you now intend to keep the bottom box as part of the hive then maybe you have too many empty frames by adding the second box. What was in the two frames that you put in the top box?


I'd like to get the one remaining messy frame out of the hive, but right now it's got most of the brood. I left it in the bottom since I have read the bees / queen like to build upwards, so hopefully she will get up top and start laying. The frames i moved from bottom to top had some drawn comb that was empty, which I put in the middle. I may need to remove the wild comb I salvaged depending if it's drone comb or not. 

I'll check in on them next week and see what's going on. I forgot to take pictures yesterday, so I will do so next time I am in the hive.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

jlaudiofan said:


> I'll check in on them next week and see what's going on. I forgot to take pictures yesterday, so I will do so next time I am in the hive.


Sounds like and looks like your makeing good progress.

As for your last funky frame, I wouldnt hesitate to move it to the outside of the box. The queen should ignore it there, the nurse bees will continue to tend to the brood and in 2-3 weeks everything will be hatched out and you can finally deal with it.

Also remember if its finnally empty of brood you can always pull it out and set it outside or above the inner cover and let them rob it out before you cut it up. (or cut it up first and let them rob out the cut off chunks either way....)


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

schmism said:


> Sounds like and looks like your makeing good progress.
> 
> As for your last funky frame, I wouldnt hesitate to move it to the outside of the box. The queen should ignore it there, the nurse bees will continue to tend to the brood and in 2-3 weeks everything will be hatched out and you can finally deal with it.


Sounds like a good idea, I may do that next week when I get in there and see what's going on. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

Quick Update: This hive now has 10 frames in the bottom box. The girls are pretty busy in there, have 4 frames in the upper box that are just about all honey! Most of it's capped! Very exciting =)
Will post pictures later


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## jlaudiofan (Feb 21, 2016)

Pictures:

Bottom super with 10!! frames in it. The one with wire is a "rescue frame". One frame in the hive had 2 combs attached to it, and the rescue frame made it really, really easy to affix to a frame. 

































It's really nice being able to remove all those frames now.... I'll get a picture next time of one of the rescue frames so you all can see what it looks like after a couple of weeks.

I'd like to thank everyone here for their advice!

One last edit, I uploaded all the photos I took on the blog at http://jasonsbees.blogspot.com/

I've looked them over pretty good and did not see either queen (I sure was looking for them). Maybe someone can spot one


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