# Hive Ventilation-compared to Greenhouse ventilation



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Lauri,
There is plenty of Literature available on Varroa mites and their relations to Honeybees. One thing is that varroa is a new pest of European honeybees. The varroa mites original host was a Southeast Asian Honeybee which it has existed w/ in harmony of sorts. At least varroa doesn't kill its' original host as it does Apis mellifera.
Mark


----------



## Rusty67 (Mar 9, 2010)

I thought there might be a question buried in there, but I guess not. However, you hit upon my favorite beekeeping topic: ventilation. I have written extensively on my website about ventilation because I think it's the most overlooked aspect of beekeeping. I've spent my entire life around engineers who do nothing beyond designing proper ventilation for human habitation--homes, factories, office building, schools--and animal habitation including laboratories, animal clinics, barns, etc. If ventilation is so important for other living things, it certainly must be important for honey bees.

Do I think proper ventilation will control varroa mites? No. But bees living in well-ventilated areas will be healthier and better able to survive attacks by mite-borne diseases including the viruses, as well as other in-hive pathogens, parasites, and predators. In other words, I think proper ventilation is an important consideration for anyone wanting to maintain healthy bees, but it is just one of many management issues.


----------



## Rusty67 (Mar 9, 2010)

> I am a first year beekeeper. . . .
> 
> Breeding VSH strains, reproducing only survivor hives, using foundationless frames,screened equipment, etc is what I have been doing right from the start in my apiary.


Just wondering . . . Is that even possible for a first-year beekeeper? It seems that breeding certain strains and reproducing survivor lines would take multiple years. Perhaps I don't understand what you are saying.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

As a first year beekeeper she may not understand all the terminology. But, I believe she did say somewhere that she is planning on raising some queens and do II.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks for pointing that out. I edited my post to correct that statement so it will be more clear.
I also wanted to ask my first question on Beesourse.

Are Mites the problem or the symptom?

Don't you think it is best to treat the problem that is CAUSING the symptom for long lasting results? Might make a difference on the management approach


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Varroa mites are like ticks on bees. Imagine a tick on you or one of your horses the size of a dinner plate, sucking blood. That is a problem in itself. Then also consider that varroa is a vector for already existing viruses so they can gain access to bees and do their worst.

Along w/ the stress caused by a biting and sucking arachnid, there are also nosema on the insides of the bees causing even more stress.

All of these things contribute to the decline we have seen in honeybees thruoughout the world over the last 25 to 30 years, not to mention pesticides, fungicides and other chemicals in the environment which impact all sorts of insects, amphibians, and other animals.

Varroa mites and Nosema are two things that beekeepers can do something about. Control them and you will be a more successful beekeeper. Leastwise that is what I have seen in those who do.


----------



## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm glad you've stuck around this long, Lauri.

I'm curious what you believe to be the cause, if _Varroa_ are only a symptom?

Your ideas about ventilation are intriguing. Ventilation in Langstroth hives certainly seems critical to avoiding condensation when trying to keep bees over winter. I've often wondered how much ventilation many unmanaged hives have, though. Deep in a wall or between floors of a building, or in a cavity in a hollow tree, I wonder how much air movement some of those hives experience.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

lauri, mites are a problem because they can out breed the bees and the bees don't have much of a defense against the mite. At least I don't think they do. In colder climates the queen stops laying and this has a tendency to crash the mite population but if the hive is heavily infested the bees die off to quickly, loose their critical mass and the colony dies as a result.

We live in the city and I made a bus stop into a green house. It is not as nice as yours but we can get a heck of a good start on our vegetable garden and next year the wife plans on growing winter greens. The issue we found with a green house is you have to water like crazy. For some reason we didn't expect that. I suspect it is because you ventilate to reduce the temperature and that dries everything out.
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bus Stop - Green House/GreenHouse003.jpg
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bus Stop - Green House/GreenHouse002.jpg
Due to the consumption of honey and the curing of nectar a hive has too much moisture. It has to be ventilated to relieve the moisture. Again in a colder climate you want to do that without creating a draft. So it is best not to over do it. I do not know how ventilation would relate to varroa though.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Wholly cow Rusty 67, That is one heck of a web site! I will be checking it out ASAP. Sure is nice to avoid making mistakes when others share info and their observations.


Thanks to all who replied


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Acebird, you said a bus stop and I thought-what? 
That is amazing! NIce yard and nice job!


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Kieck, so true about the wild hives. Bees do seem to know best don't they. I seal my hives up to protect my box's against my wet weather. But it would probably be better left as natural wood. At least the box's. My area has a lot of rain and tops would have to be watertight.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's a hive I made recently. You can see the top and bottom boards are fully screened with top entrance. I used this combo all last year and it worked well for me.


----------



## Rusty67 (Mar 9, 2010)

> Varroa mites and Nosema are two things that beekeepers can do something about. Control them and you will be a more successful beekeeper.


Well said.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks.


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Whenever some novice loses a hive and wonders why, the first question almost always is about mite load. Anyone who glosses over the mites effect and does not have control of mites as a cornerstone of their endeavor, will continue to be a fine customer to the bee supply houses. Resistent stock is a great thing, but a large part of their resistence revolves around the fact they swarm and the brood breaks decimate the mites in the colony requeening after the swarm. Nosema is almost no problem for us non migratory folks here on the dry high plains. Where you are at, it will be a challenge. But dealing with the mites will be the key to your success or failure.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I have read, many feel there is no way to treat for mites without medication. Thanks for the info to all. I'll certainly be keeping my eyes open and will have to deal with treatment if the need arises. 
Just thought the man made enviroment of the hive might be manipulated somewhat by better ventlation thus reducing the mites stronghold.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't see any corrolation between ventilation and mites or mite control.

There are none chemical treatment controls of varroa infestation.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can added ventlation help the the bees and mites live together in managable numbers?

All of the research I've seen on ventilation and Varroa says that the more ventilation you get the more Varroa you get. According to Huber's research bees are very efficient at ventilation with one small hole. More holes made for less efficient ventilation.

>...about ventilation because I think it's the most overlooked aspect of beekeeping.

Huber did a lot of research on it published in Volume II of his New Observations.

>Are Mites the problem or the symptom?

Maybe a little of both. They aren't a problem for me anymore...


----------



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> There are none chemical treatment controls of varroa infestation.


I'm thinking you are saying NON-chemical controls? Assuming that, what is there other than powdered sugar? I sure had a battle with them last year!


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, you are right. My fingers moved faster than my brain. Imagine that?

A management method which Roland, aka Crazy Roland, uses is to go thru hives every 14 days, finding drone brood and smushing it. Other people use dedicated frames of drone comb which they regularly destroy by cutting cappings or freezing. These management techniques interrupt Varroa reproduction. It takes manipulation, but it doesn't leave you w/ the powdered sugar problems which potentially occur.


----------



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Oh yes, I forgot about the drone brood. Thanks.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Good replies, thank you all again for your input! Got me thinking from a different point of view. Here is a video I admire and it shows, among other things, drone bait frames being place and removed. This girl is a worker no doubt! If you have not seen the series of these videos, take the time to do so. It has helped me plan my beekeeping projects and management techniques for this upcoming year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKTvp1lupHY&list=UUQJZNNuHf5IEVBNFgDNj9HA&index=1&feature=plcp

I sure seem to find beekeeping in other countries interesting(Via -youtube). Different equipment and materials. Some good craftsmanship. Sometimes not in English, but still watchable.

The gal in the video above uses a goose wing for brushing off her bees.I would nave never thought of that.
My husband just happens to hunt geese and ducks. This year we kept the wings. We usually breast them out and throw the carcass away. Nice to use more of the parts of the wild game we harvest. I wish I knew someone who ties flies for fishing. The heads of those mallards are beautiful.If no one wants the wings I will have a lot of toys for my chocolate lab puppy!


----------



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Wow, Lauri, thanks for sharing the vid and another idea for recycling (feathers). I can't wait to watch the rest of the vid - saw 5 min. or so but gotta get to work. Wax paper for an inner cover - whoda thunk!


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks for posting that link Lauri. I'm always impressed by those foamboard hives w/ plastic sheet inner covers and how gentle the bees are that the beekeeper uses no veil and little smoke.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Great video.
Mark, do you think you can keep up with her? No gloves, loafers, no veil and it wasn't to the end of the vid before you ever saw a bee land on her. At first I had a hard time figuring out how the bees got into the hive. A plastic inner cover and no top entrances, what does that say about ventilation? The boxes look to be plastic or Styrofoam encasing a wooden interior. What do you think?


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Glad you liked the video, They have several you will find very intereresting-nice step by step instructions for the newbies. Queen rearing video has given me even more confidence in my endevors to do it this spring.
And the different equipment, such as the wax covers, are the deep bottom boards. Also their mini mating box's. Some of those are shipped off to a remote island for breeding-carried by horse and cart! They need some AI equipment!


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If I only had 4 hives in a yd, on a sunny day w/ a nectar flow on, yes, I could recreat that situation. I'd probably have to shave my beard off though. I hate it when they get stuck in my beard. 

I worked a cpl of yds last summer w/out a veil or gloves. One set of 80 hives which I worked was actually in a yd w/ another 40 which I didn't work that day. I went thru the 80 looking for signs that queens had been accepted in the half I had put queens in and that queens were laying in the half which queens had not been put in. My cataracts keep me from seeing early stage larvae, so I have to look over my glasses and squint, which is a pain in the butt while also wearing a veil. So I threw the veil back and dealt w/ the two or three stings in the head.

The right conditions, knowledge/experience and the right demeanor help a lot in keeping stings to a minimum. Anyone who gets along w/ horses as well as you and your husband appear to probably have that demeanor. Do you flinch when he gets you laying on the ground and snaps his bullwhip over you?


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> The gal in the video above uses a goose wing for brushing off her bees.


She goes back and forth between brushing them off and shaking them off. I couldn't see any reason for one or the other. I am guessing these are documentaries and they were just demonstrating both ways.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

sqkcrk Do you flinch when he gets you laying on the ground and snaps his bullwhip over you? ;)[/QUOTE said:


> LOL, how do you know I am not the one with the whip and spurs!!!
> 
> For those of you that have no idea what we are talking about:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O_TX0dvgBg&lr=1


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You use spurs? The ones w/ the spike wheels or the dual ones?


----------



## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

Discussion has strayed to the BDSM realm. Back to ventilation. Whatever happened to the solar powered hive tops that drew a bunch of air through the hive and "helped" the bees dry honey? In my climate on a hot humid day it would have sucked a bunch of moisture into the hive. Haven't seen or heard much about them. Are they still around? Didn't the guy that designed them get a patent on them?


----------



## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> I hate it when they get stuck in my beard.


Having not shaved in 20 years and attempting to grow a ZZTop beard for a while, I've felt your pain. Once when my beard was very long I had a bee hide in my beard for over an hour before she worked her way out and stung me. I keep it shorter lately so that hasn't been a problem for a while.

Almost always wear my veil because I have black feral bees (Germans) that can run hot, used to have some hot bees from Alabama that probably influenced the local gene pool and also had some Buckfasts which would run hot if you didn't requeen promptly.


----------



## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

Seymore said:


> I'm thinking you are saying NON-chemical controls? Assuming that, what is there other than powdered sugar?


Doesn't the SBB fall into that category?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

SBB doesn't control varroa. Dead varroa fall thru it.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The gal in the video above uses a goose wing for brushing off her bees.

Goose wings are awesome for fans. But one large goose feather is much handier for brushy bees than a wing...


----------



## Ozone (May 24, 2011)

I watched the video in its entirety. Thanks for posting. It is very interesting.

I will now re-read the entire thread searching for more gems.


----------



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> SBB doesn't control varroa. Dead varroa fall thru it.


My understanding is that live varroa can slip off the host (as with a sugar dusting, aka phorid) and fall thru the screen.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, w/ sugar dusting mites are caused to come off of bees and end up falling to the bottom of the hive and thru a screen if one has screened bottom boards. My point was, screened bottom boards themselves aren't a control mechanism. 

After all, how many mites do you think fall off of their hosts on their own? What percentage? I can't imagine very many. Mites that can't hold on aren't going to pass on genes to the next generation.

It is assumed that if one has solid bottom boards mites who drop to the floor crawl back up into the comb and onto bees. Has anyone really looked into this assumption?


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> It is assumed that if one has solid bottom boards mites who drop to the floor crawl back up into the comb and onto bees.


They don't have to crawl back up. All they have to do is hitch a ride on all the bees that are coming and going. With the screen the bees are not in contact with the SBB. I thought the behavior of hygienic bees is to clean off live mites like primates pick off ticks and bugs. If the bees do not have that hygienic behavior then the SBB is probably not going to do much.


----------



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Acebird - correct. They catch a ride back in if using a solid bottom board. Some may actually crawl too, but by and far the popular belief is they "hitchhike" back in.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Good point Michael Bush posted. More ventilation may be BETTER for mites than the bees.
LOL, Back to the drawing board.

Most of my posts will be based around observations. Conclusions must be made with an open mind and room for adjustment.


----------



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >Can added ventlation help the the bees and mites live together in managable numbers?
> 
> All of the research I've seen on ventilation and Varroa says that the more ventilation you get the more Varroa you get.


Michael, did the research pose WHY you get more varroa with more ventilation?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I thought the behavior of hygienic bees is to clean off live mites like primates pick off ticks and bugs. If the bees do not have that hygienic behavior then the SBB is probably not going to do much.


My understanding of hygenic behavior in honeybees can better be expressed as a trait called Housecleaning Ability. Grooming is something different, imo. I don't know if it is a heritable trait or not. Or how you would select for it.


----------



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

*I pulled this excerpt online defining hygienic behavior....

*_The term, 'hygienic', when used to describe honey bees refers to the tendency of some families of bees to identify and remove diseased and dead larvae and pupae from the brood comb and the hive much more accurately and promptly than the norm. _


----------



## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

Lauri said:


> Here's a hive I made recently. You can see the top and bottom boards are fully screened with top entrance. I used this combo all last year and it worked well for me.


Ventillation-only reply - no bugs.

There had been a discussion some months ago re double-screened hives (the placement of a weaker hive over a stronger) to take advantage of that additional heat for winter, but some suggested/experienced that the condensation issues were generally fatal to the upper colony, which got me to thinking:

In a different environment, where they didn't have to deal with rain & snow & critters - kinda like a greenhouse, duhinch:, would they propolize/comb the top of their hive to control ventillation?

I run vertical vent boxes above my hives winter & summer & can close them off as needed. They don't propolize the screened holes & bee space/burr comb is not really an issue. I tried it once with a top horizontal screen but they propolized it nearly closed, altho they don't bother with my SBB.

In a less-than-perfect environment than a greenhouse, if they are given the means to control ventillation according to their needs - won't they? How do your top screens remain unpropolized? Other than being in a 3/4" thick pine box that has to be wrapped up north in the winter time, wouldn't allowing the means for the bees to generally control their requirements - a six-sided screened box, do it?. Kidding (almost) of course, but other than weather, critters and physical contraints of the Lang hive - what would they do?


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I have about 20 hives with this screened top board. They have never propolized . Even a tiny bit. I used them all summer , fall and into this winter. Only a bit of burr comb on a few when I forced them to finish building horizontally and fill up their current box before adding another one on top.
This screened board is also their upper entrance. So the boards you see on the table on turned are upside down for the top, as you see it for the bottom board. No landing board, they are interchangable pieces of equipment. (These are made to accomodate 1 1/2" thick hive bodies or Beemax foam hives.)










There is a 3" dead space between the screen and the top cover. I get no condensation any time of year.
(Entry holes are reduced late fall and winter)
Here's a photo of one that had been used all summer.










I use it to feed syrup









And then top with a burlap sack filled with shavings in the winter









Easy to check winter time activity without suiting up. Just lift the pillow and take a peek. Sometimes they are too deep to see this way, but you can usually still see some activity.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Seymore said:


> *I pulled this excerpt online defining hygienic behavior....
> 
> *_The term, 'hygienic', when used to describe honey bees refers to the tendency of some families of bees to identify and remove diseased and dead larvae and pupae from the brood comb and the hive much more accurately and promptly than the norm. _


What I said, right?


----------



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Absolutely! Most definitely. At least I think.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, did the research pose WHY you get more varroa with more ventilation? 

Their conclusion was that more ventilation resulted in lower temperatures which resulted in more mites. Higher temperatures results in less mites.


----------



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Thanks, Michael. That makes sense now. I don't like it, but it makes sense.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Higher temperatures results in less mites.


I wonder if the action of fanning knocks more off.



> In a less-than-perfect environment than a greenhouse, if they are given the means to control ventilation according to their needs - won't they?


They do by fanning and flexing their muscles. Both of these exercises will wear out the bee so it doesn't live as long. If a tree falls on your house and puts a big hole in the roof or side of your house there will be a cost associated with fixing it. It is not that you can't fix it.

Putting a screened inner cover below a lid does not increase ventilation no more than a screen on your window with the window closed.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Seymore said:


> Thanks, Michael. That makes sense now. I don't like it, but it makes sense.


I understand what was written, but why does it make sense that lower temps made more mites? And not vice versa? I don't automatically see why that would be so.


----------



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I understand what was written, but why does it make sense that lower temps made more mites? And not vice versa? I don't automatically see why that would be so.


Mark, when I say it makes sense, I mean that now I understand the purported association between ventilation and more mites - temperature. I am not saying the the reason is a logical one for me. It is not - at least not yet. But it does give me a direction to head to do further research. It is a more complete picture than more ventilation = less mites. With this I am clueless. Hope my explanation makes sense.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It does to me. Thanks.

But, I still wonder about the cause and effect relation.


----------



## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> But, I still wonder about the cause and effect relation.


Me too! 

I guess they are like SHB - they seem to have a "season" and it's temperature dependent. I WILL be reading.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Unless I have this backwards, wouldn't one think that warmer temps would produce more varroa? Or more anything?


----------



## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Pretty sweet woodworking u do there. (2X material or 5/4?) I am looking to make mating nucs & I will considering yours & beyond. (Buzz Lightyear) I may start a thread about nucs over double screens.
I have thought about reworking the design I see from beeworks, removable woodchip screens, all in an insulated feedable top. You doin anyting along dem lines?

Great vid! I have watched their queen rearing vid 3-4 times.

Ace, Mark stated my thoughts exactly. no bees on her till late in the vid. I would think that brushing bees off like she duz would get a sting or 10.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

If you are going to make mating nucs, here is a slideshow of a few I have made so far.
The long combo mating nuc may end up being better as a queen castle. We'll see if the newly mated queens will return to the correct entrance. I am going to paint different patterns on the disk reducers so they are not be all round appering. ALso I will place potted flowers and herbs around the front for better orientation. I may also place two virgin queens in each section. If they tolerate each other may get a better mated return. (Hatched out in the incubator then introduced)
http://s425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/tweety4926/?action=view&current=6faef8fd.pbw

If you plan to build one of these contact me first for some of the slight changes in design.
Glad you all liked the videos.
You may have noticed on the queen rearing video, their mating nuc box's with the glass. I am going to build one, not with that design, but with glass so you can see at a glance whether the queen has returned or not. (With a cover over the glass for darkness within the nuc.)
Bought some 8x8" tempered glass cutting boards at the local dollar store for the prototype. They are a bit opaque, but are still clear enough to see through. I thought of getting some picture frames and just using the glass, but these are much thicker and not so fragile.
I'll post a photo when I get it done.
It will go into to a fence hung mini nuc like this one:


----------



## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I like the foam mating nucs re-enforced w/hardboard. There is one fella from Canada floating around that is nice.

I'm thinkin you could probably adopt me for helping w/ your hunting trips. If your interested pm me.: )


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

The only manting nuc I really liked was from Better Bee in Canada, But they are out of stock and don't know when or if they will get more. Also he told me shipping would be more then the price of the box. So homemade it is.

I already have 6 kids, 6 grandkids, a mule and 11 horses-sorry-no need for more! LOL got all the shooters and packers I can handle.


----------



## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Yea I guess I'll get over it I've been mistaken for a mule too often. : )


----------



## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

As more and more people who have been involved with bees in a long and un-interupted way report that they can not tell any differance a SBB verses a solid bottom makes in mite numbers, I can't help but wonder whether the mites we see below the screen are 8 or 9 day old mites and not young pregnant mites. Nine days being the maximumn natural life expectancy of a varroa mite after the host bee emerges from its cell.  Has anyone tested the mites found on a sticky board to see if the rabbit died?


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

SQKCRK - in my distant memory I think I remember some research done with elevated temperatures being used to kill mites. It was hard on the bees , but harder on the mites. If mites prefer drone brood, and drone brood is usually found in a feral hive on the perifery of the brood chamber, it would be logical that mites are adapted to slightly cooler temperatures than teh core of the brood nest.

As for screened bottom boards, we inherited some regular bottom boards that had several 3 inch holes in them that had been covered with screen. The bees propolized them all shut, so I interpreted that to indicated they where dissatisfied with that arrangement.

Crazy Roland


----------



## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> Yes, w/ sugar dusting mites are caused to come off of bees and end up falling to the bottom of the hive and thru a screen if one has screened bottom boards. My point was, screened bottom boards themselves aren't a control mechanism.


I know that when I first read about SBBs and IPM one of the selling points was that some mites fall off of their hosts. In the classic bottom board they could just crawl onto another host and get back into the gene pool. With an SBB they would fall through the screen to the ground and would not be likely to make it back onto a host removng them from the gene pool. I"m not sure that this is true but it sounds realisitic. Anyone have any proof or studies confirming or condemning this point? I like passive solutions like this in comparison to adding chemicals/solutions to the hive. There have been posts saying that HBH and other essential oils are having negative long term effects on bees. IDK but the SBB might also just breed a mite that holds on more securely if they they really do fall to the ground and cannot get back up.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I suspect that some live mites fall off but I have yet to find one in my tray. SHB's, yes, seen some of those live in the tray. I don't think the amount of live mites that fall off will equal the rate that they breed though. I don't treat my hives so this spring I have my fingers crossed that the break in brood cycle will get them through.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Are they still alive?


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Don't know.


----------

