# InstantVap 18V : professional cordless Oxalic acid vaporizer



## BillM2B (8 mo ago)

Seems like the tube could be longer because the battery might bump up against the landing board. Or a screw on extension.


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## InstantVap vaporizer (8 mo ago)

BillM2B said:


> Seems like the tube could be longer because the battery might bump up against the landing board. Or a screw on extension.


The tube cannot be longer, because if it's temperature drops below 159 celsius degrees on the end of the tube, oxalic acid start to deposit on it, and eventially clogs it. Also the treatment will not be effective if the oxalic acid drops off the tube.


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## Tumbleweed (Mar 17, 2021)

It looks very sexy in a 1950’s civil defense sorta way, good luck with it.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hello János.
From your presentation and video this appears to be an exceptionally well-made piece of equipment - I particularly like your method of speedily injecting precise quantities of OA. I had planned to ask you about how the 'furnace' could be accessed for cleaning, but then discovered that you describe a method of cleaning within your user manual: http://www.instantvap.eu/shop_ordered/98639/pic/InstantVap_user_manual_2022_02_27.pdf
I note that you also advise drilling a delivery hole at the rear of the hive (a very sensible suggestion) so that the concern expressed in post #2 regarding the landing board need not then be an issue.

I have two suggestions to make - the first relates to the 12V version, in which you state that accidental power supply polarity reversal will cause damage to the equipment which would not be covered by your Warranty. On the assumption that it is only the PID controller which would be damaged, have you considered fitting a diode in the positive supply lead to the controller to provide reverse polarity protection ? Of course this assumes that the resulting small voltage drop is acceptable, but if it is, then this simple and cheap modification could even become an additional selling point. 
My second suggestion relates to the Warranty referred to above. Details of this Warranty do not appear to be listed either on your website or within your user manual - or at least I cannot easily locate that information there. I think providing details of the length of the Warranty and what it covers etc, would certainly be of benefit to potential buyers.

On balance, I think you have designed and built a first-class product, and wish you all the best of luck with the marketing of it. I wonder - would you be able to provide a mains voltage version (110V or 240V) for those beekeepers who have such power supplies readily available ?
'best
LJ


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

It looks to me like a very fine unit and I wish you the best of luck in marketing and sales of it. It was a pleasure to watch your attached video and I am impressed.


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## BillM2 (May 22, 2019)

InstantVap vaporizer said:


> The tube cannot be longer, because if it's temperature drops below 159 celsius degrees on the end of the tube, oxalic acid start to deposit on it, and eventially clogs it. Also the treatment will not be effective if the oxalic acid drops off the tube.


Could you raise the temperature a few degrees to keep that from happening?


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Wow, well done!


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## sheneron (May 6, 2020)

Looks great. If I hadn't just recently got a provap I'd have bought this. Nice to see competition in this space, some really nice products coming out.


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## InstantVap vaporizer (8 mo ago)

little_john said:


> Hello János.
> From your presentation and video this appears to be an exceptionally well-made piece of equipment - I particularly like your method of speedily injecting precise quantities of OA. I had planned to ask you about how the 'furnace' could be accessed for cleaning, but then discovered that you describe a method of cleaning within your user manual: http://www.instantvap.eu/shop_ordered/98639/pic/InstantVap_user_manual_2022_02_27.pdf
> I note that you also advise drilling a delivery hole at the rear of the hive (a very sensible suggestion) so that the concern expressed in post #2 regarding the landing board need not then be an issue.
> 
> ...


Hello John!


You have some good points made.
I did solve reverse polarity protection back in January, I even made a video about it on a Facebook group. The voltage display just does not work if polarity reversed, but not damaged. The PID controller has no issue with reversed polarity, and that was my problem. There is a separate PCB in it, because of several issue, one of them being is that the PID controller is not able to handle high current switching. The PID would switch on the signal on the Mosfet Transistor on the PCB, and fail it.
If someone accidently connects the lead in reverse polarity, because of the diode I put in, the PID does not switch on, and does not give signal. But the Mosfet starts conducting in reverse polarity anyway, and because it has higher resistance that way, it starts to warm up. It can survive between 30-60 seconds without damage. The tool meanwhile is heating, until the mosfet is too hot, and fails. Still, with this solution the beekeeper has a little time to react, and understand that something is wrong, because the display is not on, and corrects his mistake.

This is too complicated to explain in a user manual, and I was afraid to tell people that for shorter time the tool is not failing with reverse polarity, as I was afraid of carelessness. Maybe I am wrong on this.

I did make 230 and 110V version, which was real simple, but then would not seel even one. They work extremely well. I have on stock 230, 110V heating elements, PID controllers, etc. My big worry came when I went on sites to see how people are using vaporizers. Without RCD, without grounded socket, with inverter but without proper grounding before, and with generators without grounding and protection. And all this with extension cords put together, dragging them in wet grass… This is a stainless steel tool, even on his handle, and I am very afraid that most beekeeper would not use necessary caution. I did look at some 230V vaporizer inside, well known brands, used in USA as well, and I was shocked to see how they are not complying with grounding standards, rules. Even if I did all grounding as per standard, I am almost curtain that more than 50% of beekeepers would not adhere to their part of safety, and that is just too high of a risk for me.

Guaranty is a valid point. I will display that.
Best, 
János


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## InstantVap vaporizer (8 mo ago)

BillM2 said:


> Could you raise the temperature a few degrees to keep that from happening?


Yes, you can. But a tube is only able to conduct the heat to a curtain length. Maybe it could be 1-2cm longer the best case, at a higher temperature. Many people would be afraid raising heat as they are afraid that it would degrade oxalic acid. I did some experiments recently, in trying to understand how oxalic acid behaves on different temperature from 200 to 300 Celsius degrees.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

InstantVap vaporizer said:


> I did some experiments recently, in trying to understand how oxalic acid behaves on different temperature from 200 to 300 Celsius degrees.


Temperature control is not critical for OA, you can explore vaporizer version with timer instead of PID.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

viesest said:


> Temperature control is not critical for OA, you can explore vaporizer version with timer instead of PID.


For a device which cools down to ambient between single doses - sure, a timer is fine. 

But 'continuous use' Vapourisers require the temperature to be continuously held at (or very close to) a pre-determined set-point, and thus require some form of controller. Using a PID controller is the best and simplest way of recovering quickly from the temperature drop which occurs when Oxalic Acid sublimes.
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

InstantVap vaporizer said:


> Hello John!
> You have some good points made.
> [..]
> Guaranty is a valid point. I will display that.
> ...


Hello János
just a quick post to thank you for such a comprehensive reply. You've clearly given this a LOT of thought - especially regarding safety issues. 
Very best wishes for your future success.
LJ


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

little_john said:


> For a device which cools down to ambient between single doses - sure, a timer is fine.
> 
> But 'continuous use' Vapourisers require the temperature to be continuously held at (or very close to) a pre-determined set-point, and thus require some form of controller. Using a PID controller is the best and simplest way of recovering quickly from the temperature drop which occurs when Oxalic Acid sublimes.
> LJ


It should not cool down to ambient temperature, for that purpose there would be one timer for maintaining vaporizer warm.
Other timer is for heating up for vaporization of 2, 3 or 4 grams with different times for different amount of oxalic acid.
Heating time should be some 30 seconds which is enough time for OA to vaporise, or in other words heating time should be little longer than evaporation time. The idea is to not use vaporiser immediately after evaporation to avoid to be exposed to OA fumes. In that way more energy would be used overall, but vaporizer is simpler and less expensive.


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## InstantVap vaporizer (8 mo ago)

viesest said:


> It should not cool down to ambient temperature, for that purpose there would be one timer for maintaining vaporizer warm.
> Other timer is for heating up for vaporization of 2, 3 or 4 grams with different times for different amount of oxalic acid.
> Heating time should be some 30 seconds which is enough time for OA to vaporise, or in other words heating time should be little longer than evaporation time. The idea is to not use vaporiser immediately after evaporation to avoid to be exposed to OA fumes. In that way more energy would be used overall, but vaporizer is simpler and less expensive.


Hello Viesest!


I have to disagree with you if you don’t mind.
Before I had the right controller, I did a lot of different tests, and I am sure that the temperature would be all over the place. The controller itself is not very expensive, and it gives the confidence to the beekeeper that it is under control, knows that it is working right, and the temperature is where he wants. 

It would be possible to develop a less expensive controller just for this purpose, but the development would worth only if the numbers would be several 1000s / annum. Now, having the chip shortage, I have problem even sourcing simple SMD components, not the best time to develop…


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

InstantVap vaporizer said:


> Hello Viesest!
> 
> I have to disagree with you if you don’t mind.


I understand your disagreement, your vaporizer is well designed unit and it will be hard to make something better.

And about development; bowl type vaporizers are now using low voltage heaters or voltage is transformed?


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## InstantVap vaporizer (8 mo ago)

viesest said:


> I understand your disagreement, your vaporizer is well designed unit and it will be hard to make something better.
> 
> And about development; bowl type vaporizers are now using low voltage heaters or voltage is transformed?


Low voltage heater.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

viesest said:


> It should not cool down to ambient temperature, for that purpose there would be one timer for maintaining vaporizer warm.
> Other timer is for heating up for vaporization of 2, 3 or 4 grams with different times for different amount of oxalic acid.
> Heating time should be some 30 seconds which is enough time for OA to vaporise, or in other words heating time should be little longer than evaporation time. The idea is to not use vaporiser immediately after evaporation to avoid to be exposed to OA fumes. In that way more energy would be used overall, but vaporizer is simpler and less expensive.


I must disagree. With a timer, you're relying upon a duration of time (initially determined by trial and error) to reach a given temperature - temperature which is NOT being directly measured in the conventional manner. In a sense, you're effectively 'guessing' what the final temperature will be at the end of a timed period of heating. 
So - in order for the time required to reach the desired temperature to be repeatable, it is therefore necessary to cool the device to the same starting temperature each time. If you only cool to "warm" (which is unmeasured and therefore imprecise), the time required will then be shorter than when starting from 'cold' - but how much shorter ?

So - to prevent over-heating and possible damage, it's necessary to always start from a repeatable temperature - or at least to within a few degrees of it. In the absence of any form of temperature measurement, cooling to ambient temperature becomes the obvious choice.

As to a timer version being "simpler and less expensive", I'm not sure about that. I'd be the first to agree that a PID controller in this application is a 'sledgehammer used to crack a nut', but they're cheap enough, ready-made 'off the shelf'. and do a very good job at controlling temperature - so why not use them, and take away the guesswork of a timed unit.
When treating with VOA - in order to speed things up I only cool down enough to allow the next dose to be placed in the heated can, just as you suggest. Sometimes that's 110C, sometimes 80C - sometimes 40C - but it doesn't matter what that temperature is, because I'm monitoring and controlling the set-point temperature, rather than measuring elapsed time.
'best,
LJ


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## Chester5731 (Jan 11, 2016)

I would be interested but unfortunatley all of my batteries are 20V DeWalt. They do make an adapter for 20v batteries on 18v equipment. Would this combination work?


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

little_john said:


> When treating with VOA - in order to speed things up I only cool down enough to allow the next dose to be placed in the heated can, just as you suggest. Sometimes that's 110C, sometimes 80C - sometimes 40C - but it doesn't matter what that temperature is, because I'm monitoring and controlling the set-point temperature, rather than measuring elapsed time.
> 'best,
> LJ


You can apply full power (250 W) for a period of time and there would be no difference. After that period of time the vaporiser can go back to stand by mode. It would be different if the input power is 4000 watts for example, but as long as power is relatively low it is just matter of time when OA will vaporise. Will it be in 20 second, 30 seconds or 60 seconds it doesn't matter. Vaporizer would have bowl, heater and insulation and two wires (remember the Varrox). In this case vaporizer can have indication when it is in stand by mode and can be used again without any temperature disturbance.


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## InstantVap vaporizer (8 mo ago)

Chester5731 said:


> I would be interested but unfortunatley all of my batteries are 20V DeWalt. They do make an adapter for 20v batteries on 18v equipment. Would this combination work?


Between the 18v and 20V batteries there is no difference, it is only marketing staff. One advertise it for maximum voltage after charging, the other the nominal voltage. But they have the same no. of cells same voltage. Good example is the Dewalt, see this vide, it explains it: 






Dewalt 20V in US and Dewalt 18V in EU are the same apart from label, only in Europe the laws does not allow this marketing. I also sold Dewalt socketed type vaporizer in US, and it works for the person.

I believe that it would also work for the 20 / 60V Dewalt flexvolt type. Because the socket is a 20/18V type, it would take the 20V from the battery.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

I really love what you're doing and hope it does well for you! 

I'll admit the only thing I don't look forward to, when treating with OAV, is running the extension cord.


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## InstantVap vaporizer (8 mo ago)

mtnmyke said:


> I really love what you're doing and hope it does well for you!
> 
> I'll admit the only thing I don't look forward to, when treating with OAV, is running the extension cord.


Thanks! How many hives are you treating?


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

InstantVap vaporizer said:


> Thanks! How many hives are you treating?


I only treat about 30. However...

We're currently moving and at the new place I've made a point to keep most of the production hives in a row so they are together and within reach of the extension cord. I'm still going to have some nucs and resource hives on the back side of the property that will require a much longer cord. It's going to run through the patio and driveway so I will have to pick that up after each treatment.

I also keep some hives at a few friends properties. Having to bother them for power has been a bit of a chore and would be MUCH easier to simply show up with a battery powered vaporizer and be gone in a few minutes.

I'm using a 110v version and do prefer it to my old 12v version since the large battery was far more inconvenient. I may have to invest in a battery operated version in the future as the convenience factor is hard to ignore.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

viesest said:


> You can apply full power (250 W) for a period of time and there would be no difference. After that period of time the vaporiser can go back to stand by mode. It would be different if the input power is 4000 watts for example, but as long as power is relatively low it is just matter of time when OA will vaporise. Will it be in 20 second, 30 seconds or 60 seconds it doesn't matter. Vaporizer would have bowl, heater and insulation and two wires (*remember the Varrox)*. In this case vaporizer can have indication when it is in stand by mode and can be used again without any temperature disturbance.


I'd like to make the following my last post on this issue, as I feel we've strayed too far from the thread's original subject matter.

I'm pleased you mentioned the Varrox, as that is a perfect example of what I've been talking about. The Varrox is a timed applicator, and relies upon the operator disconnecting and then removing the device after pre-determined elapsed periods.

The manufacturer's instructions state that the device should be switched ON for 2.5 minutes (this duration may be adjusted according to results), and then switched OFF for a further 2 minutes, after which time* it should be removed and cooled in a bucket of water.*

By immersing in water, the temperature of the device is returned to the same (or very nearly the same) starting temperature for each new application. This is the equivalent of what I have described as 'cooling to ambient', when cooling within air.

The manufacturer states that their applicator can reach a temperature of 300°C. I would point out that the Melting Point of Beeswax is around 64°C and it has a Flash Point of 204°C , and indeed fires within beehives have been reported when using the Varrox applicator. A casual approach to elapsed-time is therefore not to be recommended when employing such timed-duration applicators.
LJ


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

little_john said:


> * it should be removed and cooled in a bucket of water.*


It is a waste of "precious" energy from battery. My posts are about how eventually vaporizers can be better. In this case Warrox could be supplied with metal spoon which fits in pan; in that way OA could be added into hot vaporiser.



> The manufacturer states that their applicator can reach a temperature of 300°C. I would point out that the Melting Point of Beeswax is around 64°C and it has a Flash Point of 204°C , and indeed fires within beehives have been reported when using the Varrox applicator.
> LJ


That is why I guess we all agree that bowl type vaporizers are better.



> A casual approach to elapsed-time is therefore not to be recommended when employing such timed-duration applicators.


Warrox is example of vaporizer with no temperature control.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

InstantVap vaporizer said:


> The 18V version requires 1.1Ah energy to heat up the furnace, after which 1Ah provides enough power for 9-12 two-gram treatments


The heater can have power that it maintains the best temperature for vaporizing 2 grams of oxalic acid. Than 36 V battery can be used for heating up the vaporizer initially. Supposed power with 18 V would be 180+ watts and with 36 V ~720 W.


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## InstantVap vaporizer (8 mo ago)

viesest said:


> The heater can have power that it maintains the best temperature for vaporizing 2 grams of oxalic acid. Than 36 V battery can be used for heating up the vaporizer initially. Supposed power with 18 V would be 180+ watts and with 36 V ~720 W.


The heater power increases exponentially as you increase the voltage (material dependent). That would kill the heater, as it is not designed to dissipate that high power.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

InstantVap vaporizer said:


> The heater power increases exponentially as you increase the voltage (material dependent). That would kill the heater, as it is not designed to dissipate that high power.


The higher power can be adjusted (by changing the voltage of battery or by limiting current) to what will not kill the heater.


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## Cobbler (Jan 6, 2021)

This is a great looking machine. You have done an excellent job addressing several of the problems of other machines - portability, ease of use (not needing to turn the unit upside down), and simple accurate measurement and injection of oxalic acid into the heater. Plus, having everything contained in a single stainless steel housing makes it look very durable and just completely designed. These improvements over other options are enough to pull me back into the market for this type of OAV tool.

It looks like your shipping is concentrated in Europe. What is the cost to ship to the US?


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## InstantVap vaporizer (8 mo ago)

Hello Cobbler!

I am shipping to US as well, I have shipped some already. I will ship one next week too. If you type in this, you will see the prices in USD, as well as the shipping when you set your address:


https://instantvap.hu/us/


Shipment costs:
1ps: 60 USD
2pcs:, 70USD
3pc: 90USD
4pcs: 100USD.
The device is 299 USD for the cordless version with 1 oxalic acid dispenser.
It is worth ordering together with other close by beekeepers when ordering.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

This is an impressive looking device. I would consider ordering one but the US distributor, Lorobbees, has it priced at $495, marking it up approximately $220 USD vs. the seller's price of approximately $278 USD. I can't justify paying someone that kind of mark up. Consider shipping directly to the US again.


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## InstantVap vaporizer (8 mo ago)

Hi e-spice,

it is actually 299USD. The difference is not that much as it seems. You have to add shipping fees, transaction fees, import charges as well. While Lorobbees price includes shipping to your door. And he provides warranty repairs as well when needed.


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