# Plastic Frames-Biggest Mistake Yet



## TripleS (Mar 17, 2012)

New is not always better. Why in the world would one think that changing from the tried and true to the new up-to-date plastic foundations/frames would improve the quality of a beehive? I have recently converted to plastic foundation/frames and much to my dismay, have had a complete failure. I have added them into established brood chambers that had old, damaged comb-none have been drawn out. Then had the wonderful idea to use them in some swarm boxes I have caught this year. Even after coating the frames in syrup (sugar water) and feeding the swarms, they left. That's right. Three caught swarms left my boxes. I have NEVER had this happen with wax foundation. Yes, it would have been ideal for me to put drawn comb in with the new swarms or even some established brood frames, but unfortunately I don't have any to spare at the moment. Needless to say, I will be going back to all wax foundation. Sure, maybe it will be a little more effort on my end, but it beats losing over $300 in swarms - not to mention the quality and health of my existing colonies. Sorry for the venting, but I am absolutely sick over my screw up.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Did you get wax coated plastic frames or non wax coated?


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## khaas15 (Feb 17, 2010)

I have had three hives started with wax coated plastic frames. The bees built out three top deeps, and six medium supers with no problems. Are you sure they were given a good wax coating?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I have had poor results with plastic frames as well... I bought some peirco frames last year and they haven't touched them... I took them all back out and am not going to use them any longer.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I used wood frames with plastic foundation last year and all plastic this year - all from Mann Lake - and I don't see ever buying another sheet of wax.

Why would you treat all brands as if they were the same? No offense, but what you are saying is about like "I had a red car once that was a lemmon, therefore all red cars suck."

Name names if you are going to condemn a product.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Through this past Winter and continuing, now, I've been using Mann Lake PF120's, some PF120 foundations cut out and inserted into wood frames, and foundationless wood frames. I've also been using combinations of both, all have rapidly (within two or three days) been turned into working combs, some with pollen/honey, most with nearly all brood and a little pollen/honey. I also use many Rite Cell plastic foundations in wood frames (I use these for the ease of grafting from the larger cells). I give these a little extra beeswax coating and they're drawn into comb, usually overnight.

The only time I've seen bees balk at plastic, was when it wasn't beeswax coated, when the hives populations were still low, and when there wasn't a honey flow happening.

When the hives populations were "strong" and there was also a "strong" honey flow, I've had them turn old plastic frames that were waxless (they were so old the wax had worn away), weathered until they were warped and cracking, and even with a layer of dried mud; become, in just a few days, beautiful, honey and brood filled combs. I almost didn't recognize these frames as the ugly, disintegrating old frames that they had been. I was amazed again at what the bees could do.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I've had good results with PF-100 frames. I just ordered another batch. Bees build them out well.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

camero7 said:


> I've had good results with PF-100 frames. I just ordered another batch. Bees build them out well.


Same here, ordered two more cases of pf-125's...


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Should I add wax to new PF-105s? Should I exclude the swarm in that I put on them? If I super with it how do I do it? This coming from a decades old plastic ridiculer trying plastic again for the 2nd time.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

well I guess I get to say it again, since nobody knows what google is, paint wax on em, thick wax gives em more of what they want. The only precaution is DO NOT get so much wax on there the comb pattern is smooth over, they have no idea what to do with that. Plastic is great. As the moth finds some wax we tear it out, and rewax the frames with plastic. And they dont blow out in the extractor, how awesome is that!?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

odfrank,
I would recommend adding some additional beeswax to the PF105's, I've tried various other techniques, but find that adding more beeswax as recommended by Grant, see Beeswax on Plastic has been the most beneficial technique for getting nice comb drawn on plastic foundation as quickly as possible.

As Skinner Apiaries has said, add the extra beeswax to the cell walls, only, and it appears, you can't go wrong with that.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I had all plastic last year, and the bees drew it out nicely once I started feeding. This year I am trying foundationless wood alternated with wax coated plasticell, and I am scared to look in the box. We've had a good flow on, I was delirious with fever from a flu yesterday and not brave enough to open the boxes. Unfortunately my wood frames that are in the mediums didn't have the wedge dropped down. I was kind of busy with my cutout. So this morning I am dropping the wedges and getting ready to swap whatever frames I need to. 

Gypsi


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## MrHappy (Feb 10, 2012)

Another easy fix I've found is to spray them with a little 1:1 syrup. I didn't spray 3 frames in the center of the box to see and they built out the other frames before touching the 3 I didn't spray.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

I have used the Mann Lake PF100, 120's and 105's for a few years now. In addition I still purchase new wood frames and use rite-cell plastic foundation. Manufacturer's do not apply a great deal of wax to the plastic because it adds to the cost of the product. I for one am glad they don't, because I like to add my own "clean wax" instead. I think its important to add a thin coating of melted wax over the face of the cells. I generally coat at least 3/4 of the frames by using a foam brush run lightly across the plastic. Don't fill the cells with wax. After awhile you'll develop you own technique for apply wax to foundation. Less is better. My bees have no problem drawing plastic coated foundation into nice looking combs. No matter what you use bees will only draw out foundation when there is a flow on or they are being fed heavily. I have had boxes of foundation just sit on a hive and not have them eager to touch it because the weather turned, or the flow stopped. When conditions are right they will draw it out. Personally I still prefer wood frames with plastic coated foundation.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

One anti-plastic note that I feel responsible for putting in here (and then I'll shut up with my "plastic bashing," promise):
According to countless studies, plastics leach toxins, especially toxins that POWERFULLY emulate the effects of estrogen in the human body; according to a new study, paid for by a plastics manufacturer, not only do SOME plastics do this, pretty much ALL plastics (even and especially "BPA and PABA free) do it. If you're not concerned about feeding your kids artificial estrogen, ignore me & continue to wonder why all the 14 year old girls keep looking like 17-19 year old girls should....

All Plastics Are Bad for Your Body, New Study Finds (article by Emily Mann)


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

For swarms I only use foundationless with a 1/4" to 1/2" wood starter strips coated with old melted brood comb. Once they move in, I immediately put a frame of brood in, even if it's drone brood to get them to stay. I also feed syrup regardless if they need it or not. I think it helps them to build comb.

Once they draw out several frames on foundationless, I stagger in PF 125's as a comb guide so they'll keep it straight. I know it's a little more work but I've never had a swarm leave. They don't like plastic at first. You have to integrate the plastic as the hive grows. Once they draw on it, it's fine.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

"plastics leach toxins"

They seal the plastic with wax! The honey and brood does not come into contact with the plastic, only wax!

I traded a friend a wood frame with wax coated foundation for one with regular crimp wire. A week later I could not figure out which frame contained the plastic foundation. I have not switched yet but I see no reason not to when I need more foundation. I am really tired of foundation warping, popping out, wiring, etc. For the small cost increase I believe you are much better of when you figure all the time it takes to deal with crimp wire as long as you dont need to brush it but I doubt that takes much time. And now that I believe I seen my first shb grub, I will want to be able to scrape off bad comb and that's another plus. Old comb can simple be scraped off when it gets old. Trying to cut old comb out and insert new foundation is a major pain is the you know what.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Charlie B said:


> They don't like plastic at first. You have to integrate the plastic as the hive grows. Once they draw on it, it's fine.


So far this spring I have hived 3 swarms into deeps with wood frames and plastic Pierco foundation. All three had the frames drawn out in a week and needing a second box. I have great luck with Pierco foundation.

Johnny


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

What brand are they?
What do you want to sell them for?

I like plastic, but I really don't have any experience with anything else. I have a bunch of wood that came with some Nucs and truthfully can't throw them out fast enough.
I coat them with wax sometimes or switch out positions on the ones they don't want to draw out.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

WI-beek said:


> "plastics leach toxins"
> They seal the plastic with wax! The honey and brood does not come into contact with the plastic, only wax!


Unfortunately, Wax and plastic are both oil-based solids...100% compatible for leaching purposes; so the wax is pretty "transparent" to any toxins that would leach out of the plastic & into your honey (in the brood, the toxins affect only the bees, so that'd be of SLIGHTLY less concern than poisoned honey).


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Anyone thinking about trying Mann Lake PF120s and that line of all plastic frames - You need to know that they are *small cell, and non-small cell bees don't always draw them out correctly* - especially in honey supers. The rite-cell foundation on the other hand seems to always get drawn out beautifully. BTW, I've never added more wax to them, and so far I've had good results.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

We've dumped a lot of swarms on the man lake PF frames. I usually put one drawn frame, or a brood frame in the box.
Most of the swarms stay.
We don't add any wax to the man lake PF frames, use them right out of the box.

I have not had a swarm move into a swarm trap with them yet.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I use the Mann Lake PF's, have never started a hive on anything else since my TBH. The only concern I have is that occasionally I will come across one that is warped so badly that the bees will only draw out one side of it. 
In drawing them out the biggest variable I have noticed is the colony that is working them. My large colonies, on a flow, or my nucs have drawn out comb easily, my also-rans - not so much.


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## TripleS (Mar 17, 2012)

All are wax coated. After reading several comments I will try adding more wax.


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## TripleS (Mar 17, 2012)

Thank you for all of the replies! I have both Mann Lake and Dadant foundation and frames. Some are plastic on wood frames others are all plastic. I have ordered only wax coated foundation, although upon inspection there does not seem to be much wax. I will pull out the paint brush/craft roller tonight and get to painting wax. I'll add them to my current swarm boxes plus a few established colonies to see if it makes a difference. Thanks again!


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

They would not draw out my plastic so this year I painted them. Now I wonder if I may have got it too deep. I am putting one frame with comb (mostly drawn from a cut out), one plastic (with extra wax) and struggling to figure out what else to add to the traps (since I have 6 the number of extra gear) I have some wax shallows, and plastic coated mediums (none drawn).


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Not sure if I'm on the right track...I'm replacing all my Plastic Frames ( made in Australia) for a different reason then the ones mentioned above. The problem I have is that our Plastic Frames have reinforcing on the side bars and they are SHB heaven as bees can't get into them.
I have also started to replace wired queen excluders for the same reason ( SHB can get into the sides where bees can't chase them)


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## beehonest (Nov 3, 2011)

Well I am anxious to see what happens, I have always been die hard wax. But I got a pre assembled Mann Lake hive for CHRISTmas. It came with plastic, so on Friday I will find out, I am installing a package in it. I have heard that if you start with it it is OK, but if you take bees that are used to wax, they don't won't to build it out? I hope it works OK,being able to buy pre assembled, not have blowouts, and not having to worry about wax moths sounds great to me! You know the old saying, if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is. I have proved this wrong with bee suits, I hope plastic proves it wrong also.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

"Unfortunately, Wax and plastic are both oil-based solids...100% compatible for leaching purposes; so the wax is pretty "transparent" to any toxins that would leach out of the plastic & into your honey (in the brood, the toxins affect only the bees, so that'd be of SLIGHTLY less concern than poisoned honey)."

What leaching may occur would be so minimal it should not be of any real concern to anyone. If they are going to be that paranoid to worry about parts per billion of contaminates from plastic leaching through past the wax then they will probably want to take a big breath and hold it and never take another breath ever again for the rest of their life. There are so many unhealthy chemicals, pollutants and other unhealthy particles that leach into the air from the plastics in our cars and other pollutants from exhaust and factories and such and as we know pollution from Japan and China end up in our air here as well. By not breathing any more they could avoid all the health risks that they are subjected to if they continued to breath. I think it would be really foolish to worry about such little things like consuming the leached chemicals from plastic though honey if you are just going to keep breathing it. You have to go all the way or you are just wasting your time.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I've had a similar experience as described by the OP.

Natural comb came out O.K. .

I put in some rite cell deep frame foundation for a project (making deeps) and they turned out fine.

However, I still can't get my bees to draw out PF 120s.

So, yes, once they go natural cell, they won't do the PF 120s, but will do rite cell.

It is most annoying.


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## Roadstar (Nov 1, 2010)

We use PF 120's, and have no problems getting the bees to work them. I brush on some extra wax, spray them with 1:1 syrup when I put them in the hive, and the bees draw them out just fine. We use the medium frames in our supers, and they take to them fine too. We don't add wax to the mediums, but we do spritz them with 1:1 when we put them on.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Last night I brushed extra beeswax onto the cell walls of a batch of PF120 frames, also some that had been cut out and mounted in wooden frames. This morning I installed many of them into brood nests, between frames of brood. Late this afternoon I checked to see how they were doing, of the five I examined, all were already completely drawn out into comb. Adding extra beeswax really does the trick.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>non-small cell bees don't always draw them out correctly 

I have not had that problem with the PF120s.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I just picked up a few hundred sheets of Perma-dent foundation by mistake. I am going to try it out, anybody here use it before?


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

I have used Perma-dent in honey supers and like it but I just a small guy


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> I just picked up a few hundred sheets of Perma-dent foundation by mistake. I am going to try it out, anybody here use it before?


Brad,
I could use about 20 sheets of that Permadent if you don't like it. I can pay you for it when I meet you in Brattleboro.

Cheers,
Keth


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I put all the deeps together already. I do have some mediums if you want some of those.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

I am all set on mediums! 

Cheers,
Keth


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## Buzzsaw2012 (Feb 1, 2012)

I'm a new beek.
We installed a 2 lb and a 3lb pkg each on mann lake sc frames and they are drawing them out nicely.
I did add extra wax and spray of sugar water .

I wish I could figure out the picture thing , pictures turned out nice .


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## beehonest (Nov 3, 2011)

Ok, I am liking the plastic so far! It is a lot faster and more durable. I started a package back on the 9th and they are filling the frames out nicely! I did nothing to them put them in as they were shipped. I think what I have been hearing is right, if you start them out on that they take to OK. If you switch them from wax, or regular cell, they don't like the change. Keep you updated.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Buzzsaw2012 said:


> I wish I could figure out the picture thing , pictures turned out nice .


Open a free http://photobucket.com/ account, then upload your photos there. Photobucket will provide a link to each picture that you can post here.


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## Littlestinger (Apr 21, 2011)

I use Pierco black plastic frames and I think they are great. I also use wooden foundationless. I am to lazy to mess with foundation. I think the plastic frames are the best, but the wooden foundationless are cheaper.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Littlestinger said:


> I use Pierco black plastic frames and I think they are great.


Yeah..what he said!


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

I've had trouble with bees drawing plastic out correctly unless I make the spacing closer, for example, start with 10 frames and later reduce to 9.

Also, it's harder to cut out queen cells when they're on plastic.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

4/25/2012
I have a field trial going on this April 2012.
I explained to Nick at Pierco that I was hot bees wax coating his one coating product to insure that they get drawn out and he suggested the 02 type 
I purchased the Pierco 02 which is double coated, supered a strong medium, waited 10 days, and checked the hive on 4/24/2012.
Results:
:thumbsup:
5 perfectly drawn out frames on both sides from top bar to bottom bar!
photos will follow after a local rain.


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