# Who does instrumental insemination of queens? Advantages and disadvantages?



## TylerStewart (Oct 15, 2014)

The ones I bought that were inseminated the bees constantly tried to replace.... I kept cutting out started queen cells and eventually they just kicked out/killed the queens. I tend to think that queen guy just didn't have the process figured out good enough yet.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I'm hoping Astrobee will chime in here. You might private message him if he doesn't post in a few days.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

There are also several others on beesource who perform II (Adam Finkelstien of VP queens, Brandy, Joe Latshaw, and others). This is my 3rd season using II. I was trained by Sue Cobey in a special class at the University of FL Gainesville. Joe Latshaw has also offered training, but I see on his site that none is scheduled for 2015. Is it hard to learn? Not terribly hard, but it does take a fair amount of practice to get it right. Many queens will be sacrificed before you get the technique. There are a lot of details involved that are way beyond simple queen rearing. At least for me, semen extraction is the most tedious part. Is it a good thing? Of course, but with any high-level control of genetics, you can over do a good thing. There is also a pretty high entry price associated with the instrument, scope, misc stuff, certainly not for your average backyard beekeeper.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

AstroBee said:


> certainly not for your average backyard beekeeper.


 Who wants to be "average"? 

Good topic!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

thehackleguy said:


> Who wants to be "average"?


With a cell builder full of cells, a garage full of supers waiting to be extracted, out yards still to be pulled, and one man standing in the room - average seems like a very nice place...


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

AstroBee said:


> With a cell builder full of cells, a garage full of supers waiting to be extracted, out yards still to be pulled, and one man standing in the room - average seems like a very nice place...


Some of the equipment cost is probably a barrier for many. From my research you're looking at least a couple of thousand just in equipment to do it. Not to mention the time and effort.

I'm curious how many "mistakes" or "misfires" a person might expect. It looks like harvesting the semen is tedious to say the least, and the the actual insemination process looks rather delicate.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Qvox said:


> Some of the equipment cost is probably a barrier for many. From my research you're looking at least a couple of thousand just in equipment to do it. Not to mention the time and effort.
> 
> I'm curious how many "mistakes" or "misfires" a person might expect. It looks like harvesting the semen is tedious to say the least, and the the actual insemination process looks rather delicate.



The Latshaw instrument is advertised for $1135, which is substantially cheaper than the Schley. A decent, but still cheap, microscope is going to be around $500+, and a few hundred+ extra for misc (CO2, light, etc), so for around $2K to $2.5K you could have a minimalist system. That's about as cheap as you can expect without finding a far cheaper instrument. I have the Schley instrument that Sue recommends, which is far more expensive, but it is a very nice unit - true German craftsmanship. Here's a link: http://www.besamungsgeraet.de/__en/catalog-equipments/

Regarding the learning curve, I was told by a professor that I can expect to sacrifice about 100 queens before I get the technique down. I think that assessment was a bit exaggerated, but not crazy either. I didn't count, but at the class, I must have done about 20 queens. I took two home with me and one of the two was successful. Post class, my averages are not great, but somewhere around 50% survival. I have 3 from last season that are absolutely awesome. 

I think your assessment about "tedious" and "delicate" are exactly on target. The key to drone extraction is to make sure you've got plenty of mature drones flying. Without that you will be very frustrated. Of course not just any old drones, the most desirable drones possible. The actual insemination is all about technique and a light touch. I'm a bit clumsy, so probably not the best suited for the task, but I've managed to have some success. 

II has really made me focus on the drone side of the equation, not only for the availability of mature drones, but the whole process is so time consuming that you'd better have some really decent drone stock to make it worth the effort. 

Of course, all this requires that you're pretty skilled at making cells, managing nucs, etc. Lots of work for sure.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Not that I know of. We normally offer a training class each fall, but this year, we just have too many other commitments. Sue offers training in Washington, maybe it would be a nice vacation opportunity.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

AstroBee said:


> With a cell builder full of cells, a garage full of supers waiting to be extracted, out yards still to be pulled, and one man standing in the room - average seems like a very nice place...


I said I don't want to be "average" not crazy! 

Just out of curiosity how do you choose your drones? Just like breeding chickens for fly tying feathers, the roosters are easy to tell the quality but the hens genetics are completely hidden (except for records). But I mark each chick when they hatch so I know exactly who the parents are for the life of the bird. How do you keep track of drones, if they are any good, that they came from the right queen and not a laying worker, etc?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

thehackleguy said:


> Just out of curiosity how do you choose your drones?


It is necessary to have a diverse population to select from. Diverse in the sense of being not closely related to your queen mothers, but having similar good qualities, such as mite tolerance, highly productive, gentleness, etc. I use the same selection criteria for drone mother that I use for queen mothers. Each drone colony is given 1 or more drone frames in early spring. These can be simply an empty frame (no foundation). I really don't like the green all plastic drone comb frames. A colony on foundation will absolutely jump on the foundationless frame and fill it with drone comb in a remarkably short time. Once you've raised enough drones for the season, you can either cut out the last round for mite control, or move it to an other position and let them fill it with honey. Also, I cut out when possible drones from undesirable colonies and they get requeened. 





thehackleguy said:


> How do you keep track of drones, if they are any good, that they came from the right queen and not a laying worker, etc?


Of course there will be drifting of drones between hives. To help reduce this you can reorient the colony, or move it. Alternately, and much easier, you can move frames of capped drones to "drone colonies". These drone colonies should be well-isolated from others to minimize drifting. Once you have these isolated drone colonies, you take a leap of faith that drones collected at its entrance are those that you are seeking. Sometimes color of emerging drones from selected drone frames is used to help make final selections. Of course plucking drones off frames is much less efficient than trapping them at the entrance. Drones walking on frames may or may not yield semen. You can perform some field eversions to test yield, but flying drones are much more likely to be mature. 


Hope this answers your questions.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

It does, thanks for taking the time to elaborate.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

thehackleguy said:


> Just out of curiosity how do you choose your drones? Just like breeding chickens for fly tying feathers, the roosters are easy to tell the quality but the hens genetics are completely hidden (except for records). But I mark each chick when they hatch so I know exactly who the parents are for the life of the bird. How do you keep track of drones, if they are any good, that they came from the right queen and not a laying worker, etc?


It is similar to poultry in that records and progeny testing are essential. We set up yards with only drone mother colonies and try to collect drones from 50-60 drone mother colonies at a time for a sample of 1000-1200 drones. Drones are then mixed and semen is collected. So far today I have collected about 600 mircoliters of semen and have about another 200 mircoliters to go. It is all about good records and maintaining a large enough population to ensure genetic diversity but to allow for selection.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

an advantage is the ability to combine genetics under controlled conditions. the big disadvantage is the queens do not last as long as natural mated queens. Its not practical for average use. If your doing it just for queens your wasting time and money.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

beeware10 said:


> the big disadvantage is the queens do not last as long as natural mated queens.


I suspect that Sue Cobey would not agree with this statement. 

See: "Comparison studies of instrumentally inseminated and naturally mated honey bee queens and factors affecting their performance" Susan W. Cobey, Apidologie 38 (2007) 390–410 Available online at: c INRA/DIB-AGIB/ EDP Sciences, 2007 www.apidologie.org DOI: 10.1051/apido:2007029

In that reference, you'll find the snippet below:

"The unfounded reputation for poor performance of IIQs has been difficult to dispel, although the scientific community has repeatedly demonstrated their equal and sometimes higher performance compared to NMQs"


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

my statement about aI queens having a shorter life comes from adam finkelstein of vp queens. he spoke at a pa state meeting a couple of years ago, as far as I know all he sells are breeder queens from stock he developed. he said if a aI queen lasts the first summer that was average. again its hard to do something better than nature.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

beeware10 said:


> the big disadvantage is the queens do not last as long as natural mated queens. Its not practical for average use. If your doing it just for queens your wasting time and money.


I think this is a fair observation. Not all queens are created equal. The point I believe Sue was trying to make is that in a fair comparison performed by an experienced queen rearer and inseminator, II queens will perform as well as naturally mated queens. I agree with that point. However, it is challenging to produce exceptional II queens and when working with living organisms, things happen...


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

This is all extremely fascinating to me! I've spent the majority of my life breeding chickens and breeding bees is FAR more complex!


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## Moccasin (May 18, 2010)

I think you would be capable of selecting color back into your specific line of honeybees this way. People used to sell their own line of grey bee, black bee or yellow bee and even control how many stripes. They sold 3 banded or 5 banded Italians, Midnight blacks golden Italians Mountain grey Caucasians,etc. Now not many people can do that anymore and you cannot buy any Caucasians, Greys or blacks AT ALL. I guess that might be an advantage to be the only black line in the USA Or pure grey line? I do not know how to do that A I line breeding and wish I did because I want pure greys or pure blacks but cannot buy them at all for any price. Used to though. Sears sold them and the YUGO ARS YC1 was pure grey! It was from Russia's Yugoslavia.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

JSL said:


> I think this is a fair observation. Not all queens are created equal. The point I believe Sue was trying to make is that in a fair comparison performed by an experienced queen rearer and inseminator, II queens will perform as well as naturally mated queens. I agree with that point. However, it is challenging to produce exceptional II queens and when working with living organisms, things happen...


I agree with your assessment. It also meshes with how Sue relayed that point during the class (and in the reference above). The pre- and post-insemination treatment of the queens does have an impact. She was very adamant about that. In fact every of the many steps has the chance to effect the potential of an II queen, and of course there are many steps - far more likely for error to creep in vs NMQ. That said, I now have 5 (3 I did a nd 2 from someone else) II queens in their second season and are going strong.


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

AstroBee said:


> I agree with your assessment. It also meshes with how Sue relayed that point during the class (and in the reference above). The pre- and post-insemination treatment of the queens does have an impact. She was very adamant about that. In fact every of the many steps has the chance to effect the potential of an II queen, and of course there are many steps - far more likely for error to creep in vs NMQ. That said, I now have 5 (3 I did a nd 2 from someone else) II queens in their second season and are going strong.


I may go ahead and look into Sue's class. If for no other reason than I'm very interested in learning the process. The one problem is the financial investment in equipment. I'm pretty sure I read that you have to bring your own equipment to her class. So all in, just learning the process isn't cheap. 

That's why I was hoping I could find a class in the southeast (closer to home) where I can learn, and try it, and see if it's right for me, before I sink the money in the equipment. 

I do like the idea of controlling both sides of the genetic equation, and I'm very interested in the process.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

I haven't looked into the process, and have no intention of going down this road in the near term. But I am curious about one detail. How do you folks go about ensuring that the fresh new inseminated queen doesn't head out and open mate after she's placed? Seems to me that the act of flying out to get mated is hard wired into the bees genetically, so even if you have inseminated her on the bench, that young queen will still want to fly out and mate once she is placed in a hive ? Then again, maybe I've missed some big bullet point about this detail, and it's 'worrying about nothing' .


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

grozzie2 said:


> I haven't looked into the process, and have no intention of going down this road in the near term. But I am curious about one detail. How do you folks go about ensuring that the fresh new inseminated queen doesn't head out and open mate after she's placed? Seems to me that the act of flying out to get mated is hard wired into the bees genetically, so even if you have inseminated her on the bench, that young queen will still want to fly out and mate once she is placed in a hive ? Then again, maybe I've missed some big bullet point about this detail, and it's 'worrying about nothing' .


You are correct, it is hardwired in, but suppressed once the physiological change of egg development occurs. Age of the queen is one way this occurs. At around 4 weeks of age, queens initiate egg development whether they have been mated/inseminated or not. To expedite the physiological transition in inseminated queens, CO2 is used as an anesthetic and a stimulant to initiate the production of juvenile hormone which leads to the initiation of egg development.


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

JSL said:


> You are correct, it is hardwired in, but suppressed once the physiological change of egg development occurs. Age of the queen is one way this occurs. At around 4 weeks of age, queens initiate egg development whether they have been mated/inseminated or not. To expedite the physiological transition in inseminated queens, CO2 is used as an anesthetic and a stimulant to initiate the production of juvenile hormone which leads to the initiation of egg development.


Please explain the 4 weeks of age? I have seen queens laying eggs within 4 days of hatching. On another related question, with all the intermixing of bees, how do you know if the sperm and the queen you are inseminating is a pure stock? People that sells queens from a breeder stock, cannot guaranteed the daughters of the breeders stock will have pure offsprings if they were open mated.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

roberto487 said:


> Please explain the 4 weeks of age? I have seen queens laying eggs within 4 days of hatching. On another related question, with all the intermixing of bees, how do you know if the sperm and the queen you are inseminating is a pure stock? People that sells queens from a breeder stock, cannot guaranteed the daughters of the breeders stock will have pure offsprings if they were open mated.


Four weeks is the "average" length of time observed for un-mated virgin queens to lay. If they are prevented from taking a mating flight that will at some point begin laying regardless. 

Pure is a term we have applied to populations... Correct, the workers from open mated queens are no longer "pure" in most instances, but at least you have some control from the queen side.


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