# building a top bar hive



## Riverderwent

"do you have any other tips for this first timer building a top bar hive?"

If I were building another top bar hive or long box, I would make it about four feet long and would have three holes 1 1/4" in diameter on one of the long sides. I would put the holes an inch or two from the bottom and have one near each end and one in the middle. I would keep two of the holes closed unless I had a particular reason not to do so. Others would likely want to have several smaller holes that could be closed off or a larger hole that could be reduced in size as circumstances warranted.


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## brunothefinn

Everyone has their own preferences on entrance location and size. I'm not sure if the bees do.I use three wine cork size holes on each end of my KTBH. Then use the corks to close all but one, removing corks as the colony grows. 
Love Bruce


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## strummer

I use one hole on a end entrance .i think mine are a 1 1/4 or 1-3/8 bout 1/2 off the bottom


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## Michael Bush

My entrance is just the gap at the end bar...

http://bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm
http://bushfarms.com/images/TBHEntranceDiagramChrisGraham.jpg


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## EvanS

This is my first year also. I use Michael's design and the bees seem to love it. And, it is simple. I do need to flip the plywood roof, though. It is beginning to warp from all the rain we've had.


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## razoo

Thanks for all your replies. I now have a better idea of the entrance. I am trying to get a better understanding of the need for ventiliation. I just read the info I could find out about on the bushfarms website. I am a little confused - could you help me figure this out? Exactly what holes for ventilation - how many - where should they be placed. 
BTW I am loving building this, such a fun project!


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## Michael Bush

>Exactly what holes for ventilation

None.

> - how many - 

0

>where should they be placed. 

No where. Just the entrance and it's not so much a hole as a gap...


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## razoo

ok, wow. I didn't expect that. No ventilation is certainly the easiest 
I must have really misunderstood.


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## Duncan151

A Bush style upper entrance is the easiest one to make, and one that is working the best for me. My first three TBHs have three holes on the end of one long side. They work fine, but I get more bearding from them in hot weather, plus I now have holes in my hive. I stopper the holes with corks to close them down. 
The one thing that I like about the three hives with the holes is that it makes it easier for me to watch the bees come and go. My covers on the hives have a lot of overhang, so with the top entrances, I have to squat down and look up under the lid to see the bees.
I have pictures of both set ups, if you would like to see them, PM me.


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## EvanS

I made my TBHs from 8 foot boards cut in half. My bars are 1x2s and the measurements work out perfect for the entrance. I have about a 3/8 inch gap between the first bar and the front of the hive. I can't post pics, but I wish I could. It is pretty much the perfect entrance. I spent a lot of time researching before I built my hives. The thing to remember is that in nature, honey bees look for the best situation they can find and adapt to it. That is why I went with Michael's TBH design. But, it is not set in stone, either. My bottom boards are a little narrower. I think the reason the Bush entrance works so well is that it is closer to what the bees would find in nature. I haven't seen many hollow trees housing bees with three perfect holes drilled in them. It's usually a crack in the wood or in the crotch between limbs, or something similar.


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## shannonswyatt

I've got holes in the front, holes on the side and slits on the side. I like the slits the best, but the holes are easier to close up if you need to move the hive. I don't like end entrances, prefer side entrances towards the end. Keeps the rain out since it is at an angle. Michael's method is the easiest though.


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## my2cents

Interesting. I am planning on building my first TBH, mainly to hang on the porch. I intend to make a view window on the side.
As I read and educate myself on this, I do not see a consistency on the size.
Another note, I see where Michael Bush cautions on making sure the comb starts straight. I was thinking, as I have some old foundation, to cut some down to get them started.
What I have yet to determine, is the width of the top bar. I understand it rts on the sides, but what are the dimensions of the top bar? 1"X .75 " by width of box?


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## shannonswyatt

The problem with using foundation is the comb is likely to fall of right were you attach the foundation to the bar. Wedges or craft sticks are your friend. The width for bars in the brood nest should be 1 1/4 to 1 3/16. The bees may go wider, but I haven't seen them go narrower than 1 1/4. You can use spacers if they start drawing wide in the honey stores, or make some wider bars, like 1 1/2. I've got a ton of scrapes, so i just use spacers.


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## typhoontx

If you need spacers the large paint stirring sticks split long-wise and cut to bar length make nice spacers and at Lowes they will give you a couple for free !


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## Michael Bush

Brood combs work best at 1 1/4". If you make them wider the bees often cheat the comb smaller and they get off the guides. Honey works better at 1 1/2". If you have honey combs on 1 1/4" bars the bees often cheat the comb larger and they get off the guides. I make mine half and half (half 1 1/4" and half 1 1/2"). If you get narrower than 1 1/4" in the brood nest they bees will cheat them bigger and get off the guides...


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## shannonswyatt

I generally agree with Michael, but I have a couple were they want the bars bigger than 1 1/4 in the brood nest. Propolis tends to make them a bit wider.


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## my2cents

Well, Let me see if I understand something here. I read the sides of the hives need to be made out of 12 in wide boards. But, I am wondering if they can't be made from 10 inch wide boards? A Langstrom brood nest is 9 5/8. A 1X10 is much easier to come by than a 1X12.
Anyone ever try a 10 inch wide board? Maybe just make it longer to acquire the same square feet of internal space.


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## shannonswyatt

1x12s are something like 1x11.25. You can use what you choose, but when you choose, choose wisely. If you use a board that is 2 inches smaller you are going to reduce the storage volume. You could increase the bar length by using a longer bottom board to get some of that space back. I like to keep it simple.


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## Duncan151

my2cents said:


> Well, Let me see if I understand something here. I read the sides of the hives need to be made out of 12 in wide boards. But, I am wondering if they can't be made from 10 inch wide boards? A Langstrom brood nest is 9 5/8. A 1X10 is much easier to come by than a 1X12.
> Anyone ever try a 10 inch wide board? Maybe just make it longer to acquire the same square feet of internal space.


I believe that Les Crowder and Sam Comfort both use 1 x 10's for their TBHs


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## shannonswyatt

Not sure about Sam, but Les uses them for the sides and the bottom, so he really only needs 1x10's to make his hives. If I were to start all over I would probably go that route as well, but I'm happy with what I have. It can be hard finding half way decent 1x12s (or any lumber for that matter)


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## Duncan151

As your side boards get narrower, your top bars have to get longer to maintain an equivalent volume inside the hive, and/or you have to make the bottom board wider. 
Wider and shallower combs may be better for your area due to heat issues than deeper and narrower combs, or not. Then you add in the widths of the top bars themselves that you use and you have a nice, multivariable equation. 
If 1x10's are easier to come by in your area, go with them, just figure out your length of the hive based on the desired internal volume. Volume by the way is the best method to compare two TBH's.
There was a link a few weeks back that had a spread sheet where you could put in your numbers and get a volume calculation back. I will see if I can find it.


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## Duncan151

shannonswyatt said:


> Not sure about Sam, but Les uses them for the sides and the bottom, so he really only needs 1x10's to make his hives. If I were to start all over I would probably go that route as well, but I'm happy with what I have. It can be hard finding half way decent 1x12s (or any lumber for that matter)


I agree, I spend a lot of time picking through 1 x 12's to find decent ones to work with. At this point, I have enough hives built that that is what I am going to stick with. I used Bush's plans for my TBHs, but went with the 1x8 for the bottom vice the 1x6, and I put the sides to the outside of the bottom board instead of on top. Each of my combs, when accounted for beespace, have a surface area of 102 square inches; which is a little more surface area than a medium frame.


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## shannonswyatt

I rip a 30 degree angle on in the bottom and side boards, removing just enough for the angle on the boards, and then glue it up. 1x12's and 1x8s. Chop them length and then glue it up and put in some nails. Very quick to build a box.


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## my2cents

See, this is what I am speaking of, a TBH, I believe, was built with what ever material was on hand at the time. Think about it, do you think a tribe in Kenya can go to a local big box store and pick up a few boards. This reminds me of when I was a child, the farmers made feed troughs out of what ever they had on hand.
Conclusion in my mind, it really doesn't matter what you house a colony in, as long as it works for you!.
My2Cents


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## shannonswyatt

Very true, but unlike a hog trough there is one big consideration. If you plan on expanding you need to have hives that you can move resources between. So if you start with 1x12s and 1x8s and then go to 1x10s you won't have interchangeability. My first hives are a little smaller than my newer ones, but I can use the combs from the older hives in the newer hives, but not the other way. This isn't a problem since I use the old hives mostly for swarm traps and have comb for them, but it sure is nice when you know you can grab a bar from any hive and put it in another hive.


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## my2cents

That is like saying, keeping things consistent. I know one Beek that uses all 10 frame deeps, another uses all 8 frame mediums and another that uses all 10 frame deeps on the bottom and shallows on the top and yet another that has what ever he can get his hands on.
I think after some considerable time reading, studying and thinking about this, it is a personal choice of the dimensions that work in your yard. It is not like you carry some over to a friends house and interchange it. So, if I made mine out of 1X10's and 1X6 bottoms, due to the high temps in Florida, it may be better to help prevent the comb from melting and collapsing.

Another thing that popped into my mind, why can't you use plywood?
My2Cents


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## shannonswyatt

Don't be surprised if you end up taking some comb to someone if you have a top bar hive! Lots of folks want them and doing a split to get one going is a great way to get a hive. This year I wanted to help a kid get his hive up and going, but the size was way smaller than my hive, he had to wait to see about getting a swarm.


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## Duncan151

shannonswyatt said:


> Don't be surprised if you end up taking some comb to someone if you have a top bar hive! Lots of folks want them and doing a split to get one going is a great way to get a hive. This year I wanted to help a kid get his hive up and going, but the size was way smaller than my hive, he had to wait to see about getting a swarm.


Why could you not make a split with some combs that were not fully drawn out? They should have been able to fit?


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## Duncan151

shannonswyatt said:


> I rip a 30 degree angle on in the bottom and side boards, removing just enough for the angle on the boards, and then glue it up. 1x12's and 1x8s. Chop them length and then glue it up and put in some nails. Very quick to build a box.


I thought about doing that, but in the end it was easier to just fit them next to each other. The bees quickly propolize the gap and all is good.


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## my2cents

Duncan151 said:


> I thought about doing that, but in the end it was easier to just fit them next to each other. The bees quickly propolize the gap and all is good.


The SHB said to the bee keeper, better to lay my eggs in dear and to cause your bees to work harder while I lay more.
If you were to do that, why not seal it with silicon?
My2Cents


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## my2cents

http://timeinventorskabinet.org/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php/ami/ami/how_to_build_a_top_bar_hive-02.pdf


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## Duncan151

my2cents said:


> The SHB said to the bee keeper, better to lay my eggs in dear and to cause your bees to work harder while I lay more.
> If you were to do that, why not seal it with silicon?
> My2Cents


True if you live in a SHB area, I do not. I have not figured out yet if I can use silicone in the hive, or if I do, Can the bees remove it?


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## Michael Bush

Keep in mind that anything beyond a hollow log or a simple box is not for the convenience of the bees, they are very adaptable and they won't care. Any other things are for the convenience of the beekeeper.


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## Tigger19687

I might be able to get a good price on some 1x10 boards, but they are 2 inches thick.
Would this bee too thick ?


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## brunothefinn

I think 2 inches thick would work work fine. Might be a little heavier but most probably you won't be moving it to much. 
Love Bruce


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## Michael Bush

>I might be able to get a good price on some 1x10 boards, but they are 2 inches thick.

Then they are are not 1x10 boards.

>Would this bee too thick ?

The only disadvantage to thicker wood is the weight when you want to move it. It will be better insulation. I think 2 bys are actualy cheaper than 1 bys last I checked.


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## Tigger19687

I think they were for roofing. They are 20 feet long.
I would have to measure to find out.
Here is the listing with Pics, could be 2" thick compared to the 5/8 board ?
http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/mat/5201479312.html
No no one better steal these  
They have yet to email me back


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## Michael Bush

It looks like a 2 by 10, which would be 1 1/2" by 9 1/4".


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## Apismellifera

I use MB's basic hive recipe with the top entrance, out of 1x12. Ends are cut 15" at the top, 9" at the bottom, 15 degree. The ends end up sticking up .5" higher than the sides, which is on level with the top of the bars. I don't like making the bottom so narrow, missed volume and I think these proportions are more pleasing to the eye. Sideboards on the outside of endboards. Bars end up being 16.5" long, and I bevel the ends to 15 degrees, end of the wedge comb goes on ends up being about 14.5" so there's some clearance from the hive sides and some slack in that dimension. I think having that top entrance possibly the whole width of the hive helps with ventilation/moisture control and it's easy to use a strip of wood to control entrance size.


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## aunt betty

Not an expert but I learned to make the bars 19 inches long so that they can fit into a langstroth deep hive body. I wish I'd know this when I built the first one and 30 bars.

The top bar I made. Now there are two. It's too danged cute to not make more.
That's May and the colony has been in there about two weeks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiIPCFFn7c

In the video you may notice that some bars have twist-ties. Those are langstroth frames that I cut with circular saw. They had drawn out combs and I felt forcing the bees to start with nothing was too risky. Cut up 5 frames like that and it really helped that colony get strong fast. They wanted to swarm in July and got split.


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## AAIndigo

Michael Bush said:


> My entrance is just the gap at the end bar...
> 
> http://bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm
> http://bushfarms.com/images/TBHEntranceDiagramChrisGraham.jpg


Michael,
What is the width of your bottom here? Your web site states 19 7/8?

1-bottom (plywood, coroplast or other) 48” x 197/8”


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## AAIndigo

Michael Bush said:


> Brood combs work best at 1 1/4". If you make them wider the bees often cheat the comb smaller and they get off the guides. Honey works better at 1 1/2". If you have honey combs on 1 1/4" bars the bees often cheat the comb larger and they get off the guides. I make mine half and half (half 1 1/4" and half 1 1/2"). If you get narrower than 1 1/4" in the brood nest they bees will cheat them bigger and get off the guides...


Do you alternate 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 or split the hive in half? 

Also: is the entrance 3/4 high by the width of the hive or do you reduce?


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## Michael Bush

>Do you alternate 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 or split the hive in half? 

I put the 1 1/4" by the door and the 1 1/2" at the other end. I'm not sure if that's what you mean by "split the hive in half" or not. 

>Also: is the entrance 3/4 high by the width of the hive or do you reduce?

I have never reduced it except when installing a package or I thought it was week and then I just stuck a 1 x 2 under the cover and on the edge of the end piece. You can adjust it to any horizontal width you like with that, but I seldom have done it.

>What is the width of your bottom here? Your web site states 19 7/8?

That is on the TTBH not the KTBH. My Tanzanian is just a long Langstroth but with just top bars and no frames. It is, like all Langstroths made of 3/4" material, 19 7/8" in the direction of the top bars.


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## AAIndigo

So I have decided to build my 1st TBH this weekend. I will be building a Tanzanian style hive and was thinking of incorporating a screen bottom. I will build in a sliding channel with board so I can close it up for the winter. 
Thoughts?


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## AAIndigo

>That is on the TTBH not the KTBH. My Tanzanian is just a long Langstroth but with just top bars and no frames. It is, like all Langstroths made of 3/4" material, 19 7/8" in the direction of the top bars.

So I slowed down and read it again and realized what this referenced. The photos were throwing me off.


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## Michael Bush

> I will be building a Tanzanian style hive and was thinking of incorporating a screen bottom. I will build in a sliding channel with board so I can close it up for the winter. Thoughts?

I put a screened bottom on my first three or four. I don't anymore and I would not bother. Just put a bottom on it. It makes no difference on Varroa and it makes too much ventilation unless it's completely closed anyway. Save your money and your trouble and just put a bottom on it.


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## shannonswyatt

I'm with Michael on the bottom boards. I like windows, but I doubt I would make another one with a window, unless I was making it for someone else. Adds time and complexity to the build. And one or two with Windows is good enough to show friends.


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