# Mating Nucs....



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I wanted to to know who is running what as far as mating nucs go and why. 

I am currently running mini mating nucs..... deeps split into four "pockets" with 4 mini frames per pocket. 

However, I was towing with trying 2 frame nucs.... a deep split into 4- 2 deep frame nucs. 

For some reason, this year, I am having a terrible time with the mini mating nucs. The queen cells look really good when I put them in but when it is time to pick queens, either they are drone layers or laying workers lay creating a real mess of the mating nucs and I really do not know how to handle this problem. I originally equalized all the mating nucs prior to putting in these last set of cells. But when I checked them last night to pick queens, 14 of them had either laying workers, drone laying queens, or nothing and totally empty. 

I was thinking that with the regular sized mating nucs, I could clean up the problem pretty quickly with just swopping frames with a hive. 

Any suggestions, thoughts, or advice?


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Chef,

I am relatively new to mating nucs and queen rearing but from a logical standpoint, all of your observations could be explained if the queens didn't mate. 
I thought about using the mini mating nucs, but decided to make four frame deeps instead (108 four-frame nucs made this year plus 30 five-frame nucs from previous seasons). I built the four frame nucs exactly half the width of a standard box and plan on overwintering on top of full hives with a Snelgrove board. So far I like this plan very much but time is needed to discover the flaws. One potential problem is that there is a little extra bee space that will get filled with comb if I let the nucs get very strong. A spacer could be added if needed. The extra space is great at first, because inspections are so much easier. I can clump all the frames together in the middle of the box with the extra space to the outside. When I need to inspect, add a cage, or find the queen, I can get the frames out without rolling the bees. I could have compartmentalized a standard box the same way, but I prefer being able to move the individual boxes around when needed. With two boxes side-by-side, I decided to make my landing boards with an extra strip of wood running down the middle to support the inner edges of the boxes and keep the queens apart. Now that I have about 108 nucs and enough migratory tops (and the special landing boards), I plan on adding a rimless queen excluder on top of each nuc doublet, plus a full depth box of foundation, an inner cover, and a 2 gallon bucket of syrup. I hope the nucs will draw the foundation and further help in the expansion of the apiary. I started the season with about 30 full colonies, with 18 at an out apiary. So the remaining 12 colonies have been used to rear queens and to borrow brood for nuc production. At last count, I have added a little over 100 nucs and have another 24 queens about to emerge. The first round of nucs were allowed to expand enough so I could have a second source of brood frames for more nucs. My goal was to fill every nuc and full hive with a new queen and have enough time to get them strong for winter. After this last batch of queens, I hope to raise one more batch to replace any that I find that are inferior and to replace queens in the regular colonies. If all goes well, all nucs and full hives will be requeened this fall so winter losses will be minimized. Having 138 overwintered nucs should allow for some major expansion next year with quite a bit more flexibility in colony management. With all that said, it will be a record winter and all the nucs will die. 
I went a bit long, but generally I like to hear how others approach problems - so I added my two cents worth as well.

Chris


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Chris: Thank you for explaining how you do it.

Part of wanted to go with mini nucs was that it needed less resources to start. But when problems arise like laying workers and population (lacking), it is hard to always remedy to problem. 

See, with a laying worker hive (using deep frames), I could just replace the frames with another two frames from another colony. However, now, with the minis, it presents a different problem. 

I just do not know what to do.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

Chef Isaac said:


> I wanted to to know who is running what as far as mating nucs go and why.
> 
> i'm using twentyone five frame meds. they are built to take a division board wich would make them roomy two framers on each side. along with a closable small entrance they have a screened ventilation hole. this year i'm not using the divisions boards.
> 
> ...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> Part of wanted to go with mini nucs was that it needed less resources to start. But when problems arise like laying workers and population (lacking), it is hard to always remedy to problem.


Chef...try this. You can run your mating nucs with 2-8 frame nucs and a feeder, instead of 4-4 framers, can't you? With one queen on each side of the central divider...each on 8 combs, add an additional box on top with similar configuration. Each queen will have 16 mini-frames. Add a 3rd box if you want. The queens will fill their space. Supers on top of excluder, too if necessary. With two queens laying, these ger real strong, real fast. These boxes are your reserves. When a mating nuc goes bad, you can re-stock it with bees and brood from the doubles.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

*some pictures of matting nucs*

Here are some pictures of my matting nucs. I do use Apidea and the German matting nucs that Bee Works sells.
Last year I have introduced and overwintered 4 way half 5 frames matting nucs and I have used some early swarms to build 20 half frames on deeps, 2-3 deeps high and even overwintered in that configuration. In June I had enough comb with broad to start my matting nucs.
This year I have build over 50 single half 5 frame nucs. They have a regular entrance and a colored entrance reducer, upper entrance and a small screen on the bottom. This way I can use an entrance feeder (the black and yellow the Better Bee sells), I have over 200 of those feeders and never had a problem with leaking or robing. I do reduce the entrance less than 1 inch when I use them.
When I move them I can use entrance screens and bottom screen helps on a hot day. I love them.

When I run out of my drawn frames from previous season, I have stocked them with bees on foundation and a queen cell.
The procedure is well known and have been explained several times on Bee Source.
Personally I shake young bees, less drones and queens, on a screened deep, feed them e put them on a dark cool place 24 hours before you make the nucs. This is the time that the bees perceive themselves queenless.
The next day you spray those bees with syrup so they don't fly and I scoop 10-12 OZ of bees, put a ripe queen cell, feed and put them in a dark cool place for 4 days. I put them in my basement, next to my wine.
On the 4-th day you put these nucs in the matting yards. 
For the smaller matting nucs 8 OZ are enough. 


Good luck Gilman
http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t97/bleta12/?albumview=link


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Michael:

That is a real good idea. I wish I would have thought about it earlier in the season. I gotta tell you, everything is a mess. I was hoping for better luck this last round but to be honest, it really sucked. I have got messed up comb with laying workers and drone laying queens. The current problem with the boxes (what you recomended) is that I have solid bottom boards that have been nailed to the deeps. So I need to figure that out. I like the idea of having the reserves. 

Thank you Gilman for your description!


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Chef Isaac said:


> Michael:
> 
> That is a real good idea. I wish I would have thought about it earlier in the season. I gotta tell you, everything is a mess. I was hoping for better luck this last round but to be honest, it really sucked. I have got messed up comb with laying workers and drone laying queens. The current problem with the boxes (what you recomended) is that I have solid bottom boards that have been nailed to the deeps. So I need to figure that out. I like the idea of having the reserves.
> 
> Thank you Gilman for your description!


 
I do have the bottom boards nailed too. I do use a deep with a piece of wood in the middle, 1 nail in the side, that holds 20 1/2 frames, same that Lazy bee studio sells. I have overwintered in those deeps, 2-3 deep high, 1 queen. They do build some burr comb in the middle but that is no problem.

Gilman


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I use mostly 5-frame med nucs but have a few 5-frame deeps.

I often make up the 5-frame med mating nucs with one frame of brood and one frame of nectar pushed to one side of the nuc. Then I'll add another frame of foundation. I like to get a frame of emerging brood. If there are not enough bees on the comb of the sealed brood I will often shake a frame of young brood off of a comb of young larvae.

If the nucs are made up in the same yard where they will remain, I often shake an extra frame of young bees to make up for any returning to their original colony.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

*Mating nucs*

Chef:

Just restock them. Place 1 frame of eggs and larvae, then "crack" a frame of nurse bees in front of the entrance, they'll crawl in and you're set to go with 1 queen cell. If 1 frame is not enough bees , then use 2 frames. That's how I re-stock my minis. It's kinda hard to shake them in, but the bees will crawl in. 

Jean-Marc


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I use 4 frame deep nucs. I run 8 frame deep hive bodies and supers. All the frames can be switched/traded/moved to any box/nuc I have, it's very convenient.

This afternoon I was checking thru an 8 frame single box hive that has a VSH x MHI queen, instrumentally inseminated from Glenn's Apiaries. She had 4 frames honey/pollen and 4 frames brood. 3 of the brood frames had active queen cells half drawn out and should be capped in 3 days or so. 

I moved the queen on her frame of brood without Q-cells with 3 frames honey/pollen into a 4 frame nuc. On top of that (middle box) I added a nuc box with 4 partially drawn empty frames. On top of that I placed a Q-excluder (10 frame Q-excluder cut in half covers a 4 frame box) and put a cover/lid over that which has a 1 1/8 hole in it for a bottle feeder, but no feeder. Over that I placed a 4 frame Q-excluder that had 3/4 x 1 wood along sides and back which creates a front entrance. On top of that I placed a nuc box (top box) with the 3 brood frames with Q-cells and a honey/pollen frame, and put a lid on top.

In 9 days, I'll move the top box with Qcells off to a new location and it should be a queen hatching in a couple or 3 days later.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm#matingnucs

I use two frame nucs with medium frames.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I use three frame and five frame medium and deeps. I use nucs that are interchangeable with my hives and can be built up and broken back down into regular hives at the end of the season.

What I always find interesting, are those breeders that now are setting the trend with advertising 21 days, or 24 days, or some yet to soon be longer period of time, that queens are laying so as highlight this as a marketing tool. Then they are using mini or baby nucs with the comb area of next to nothing, with a hand full of bees, just enough to "get the job" done of getting a queen mated. 

So they let thier queens lay eggs where? How much comb was that queen able to lay in that baby nuc half filled with nectar? 21 or 24 days of evaluation in a baby nuc and this was enough to evaluate egg laying, brood pattern, and quality? Baloney!

As a minimum, a couple frames are needed. But a mini nuc with a cupful of bees and a few inched of comb, and this queen layed for 21 days in some attempt to market this supposed concept? Hmmmm. Maybe some massed produced operations where they pull the queen at the sight of first egg, but I can not hardly believe that proper evaluation of queens could be claimed by other so-called breeders that allow queens to lay for weeks prior to pulling the queen, in the use of mini or baby nucs.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> So they let thier queens lay eggs where? How much comb was that queen able to lay in that baby nuc half filled with nectar? 21 or 24 days of evaluation in a baby nuc and this was enough to evaluate egg laying, brood pattern, and quality? Baloney!


I don't think going to 21 or 24 days is for queen evaluation. Increasing the number of days the queen lays in the mating nuc is for the health of the queen. It has been reported...no I don't have them...that supercedure rates go down when the queen is pulled on the 21st day, rather that day 14 or 16. 

Evaluation of the queen is done later, nucs, or production colonies.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

MP, The evaluation I'm talking about is evaluating the queen BEFORE it is sold to the customer. I see little evaluating a queen in a baby nuc where laying is diminished, true value and quality is hidden by the queen not laying at full potential. 

Yes, the queen matures when able to lay for a period of time, prior to shipping her out. I just question the whole period of time when baby and mini nucs are used where they are "boosted" by a cup of bees here or there.

I think if the queen is to be held for a period of time for whatever the benefit, than why not get a truer picture of her quality, her pattern, her potential, etc. Which is not exactly easy to do to ensure a quality queen is produced to send to the public, when baby nucs are used that inhibit any real world results.

Not sure about anyone else, and perhaps nobody else does this, as many mention the whole "See an egg, pick the queen" comments, but I like to show the customer the queen, the brood pattern, and anything else the customer wants to see. That's done whether a person comes to my place to buy a queen or a nuc. I don't think holding up a baby nuc frame and having the person gaze at a whole whopping two inches of comb where she previously had the opportunity to lay, really cuts it.

I'll bet my queen being able to lay at full potential shows greater ability and less supersedure, than some queen kept fed by a handful of bees, and kept at some fraction of her ability for 21 days. 

You may need to cut me some slack on this one. I just happen to be not in the crowd of those who pull queen with the first egg being laid. And my reasoning of keeping a queen for a period of time goes beyond the single point of supersedure.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I would like to see, face to face, the success percentage of a queen in mini nucs and a queen in full framed nucs, be it a 2, three frame, etc. I ask this because I went out to my mating yard this morning and opened up the deeps that have 4- 2 frame nucs in them and saw that the queens hatched out and the cool thing is is that the bees are still there in the nucs. I cant say this is the case with all my mini nucs. 

I like the mini nucs because they generally use up less resources. Which at the begining of the year, was a concern as I had a good amount of my bees die out this winter. So I decided to try 2 deeps that each had 4 nucs with 2 deep frames in them. I just grabbed two swarms that I hived a month or so ago and split them up and moved them. I like using standerd equipment so far as it allows me to change things in a quicker way.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> my queen being able to lay at full potential shows greater ability and less supersedure, than some queen kept fed by a handful of bees, and kept at some fraction of her ability for 21 days.


Well, I guess there are mating nucs, and mating nucs. Mine aren't started with a cup'o'bees. 

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0005-2.jpg

Some get such beards, that I have to remove bees...made up 5-20 pound packages last year from my over crowded mating nucs. Want to see bees draw foundation...

Some get so crowded, they have to be expanded onto 8 combs.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0006.jpg

But...those queens raised in mating nucs, with mini-frames, could never reach the potential of those mated on full sized combs. 

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/VBAPDF2.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/strongnortherncolonies.jpg

BB, don't get yer hackles up.  I'm agreeing with you, I just want to say there's more that one way to skin a cat...or mate a queen.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Bjorn, I was holding a small frame of an Apidea matting nuc. I hope you are not referring to my picture.
I use some Apidea and Bee Works mating nucs just for matting the queens. There is no evaluation of the queen on those nucs, there is not enough room. Last winter I overwintered 2 of the Beeworks,
After mating I move those queens on splits I make to overwinter.
On the other hand half 5 frames nucs gives you a much better idea on the queen. My plan is to overwinter every half frame nucs I have, that is the real test. 

Gilman


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

MP,
My hackles, whatever they are, are just fine...  I am not talking about anyone in particular, or those who are raising their own queens. I'm just, once again being "vague" or as some may say "sleazy"  in throwing out the idea that those....oh my gosh! here we go again...those "Big Boys" who somehow produce queens in baby or mini mating nucs, which are known to be maintained by the occasional adding of a cup of bulk purchased bees, may not be of the best quality, as many times they are caged upon sighting of the first egg.

My own opinion is that for those consumers who want a breeder to evaluate a queen, making sure she has a good pattern, is not a drone layer, is worthy of collecting your money.....may not be those who are using mini mating nucs in their queen rearing program. I personally know of no breeder using mini nucs to get a queen mated then transferring them over to larger nucs or hives for some period of time for several weeks as is now being suggested by some and seems to be what the latest marketing cliche may be.

Big producers who use mini or baby nucs from what I know, pull queens as soon as they can. And if other producers are going to be making promises and claims beyond the standard practices by some, then I could hardly see how this could be claimed by using such things as baby nucs.

Certainly, I point to nobody directly. I hope all can actually recognize the fact that mini nucs are used by some, and queens get pulled perhaps in my opinion, way too soon.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

bleta12 said:


> Bjorn, I was holding a small frame of an Apidea matting nuc. I hope you are not referring to my picture.
> I use some Apidea and Bee Works mating nucs just for matting the queens. There is no evaluation of the queen on those nucs, there is not enough room. Last winter I overwintered 2 of the Beeworks,
> After mating I move those queens on splits I make to overwinter.
> On the other hand half 5 frames nucs gives you a much better idea on the queen. My plan is to overwinter every half frame nucs I have, that is the real test.
> ...


Those mating nucs are way bigger than some of the one's I have seen. Its great to see that you let the queen lay so well and can evaluate her, regardless of whether you sell the queen or use her yourself. Nice picture.


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