# Arranging frames for winter



## JB Allen (Sep 3, 2005)

I can't find consistant info on how to arrange the frames in my hives for winter. I have plenty of honey and pollen (25-30 frames of honey and 6-8 of pollen). The hives have all medium frames and are currently 4-5 high. I live in south central VA. Thanks for the advice in advance, JB


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

25-30 frames of honey spread across how many hives that are 4-5 mediums high?

Hawk


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You can just leave it the way the bees arranged it or you can arrange it the way you THINK would work the best. If I was arranging it (and I usually let the bees do that) I'd put the pollen in the bottom box, then stores in the rest. Pull the empties. Remove the excluder, if you have one. Some people complain about having a "pollen bound" hive, but I LOVE all that pollen. It means the bees have something to raise brood with in February.


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## JB Allen (Sep 3, 2005)

Robert, we are first year beekeepers and started with two hives. I'm currently purchasing equipment for another 6 for next year. Thanks for the advice Michael. Do we need however, to leave a few frames of empty drawn comb as we head into the winter, or will the bees consume the honey and make enough room by the time the queen starts to lay?


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

You Hope you have a lot of honey left in the spring. And if you do, Yes, they'll make room for the brood. Or you can change things then. They can have a frame of foundation drawn in two days if they want to. I get nervous about storing comb outside the hive. Let the bees take care of it. That way nothing melts it or lays eggs in it or ....

Hawk


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## JB Allen (Sep 3, 2005)

Can I assume then that if I leave more frames of pollen and honey than the books recommend that all will be ok? The bees will "take care" of the frames and will make room for the late winter/early spring brood? I guess what I am asking is...is it preferable to leave my hive 4-5 mediums tall heading into winter?


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Do you have enough bees for them to heat/protect that much room? If you can cut back to four(three if it's real easy) they'll do better. What you don't want is a lot of empty room. space for mice, moths, etc to set up space without the bees even knowing that they're there.

If you have more bee than you can force into three mediums, that hive is too strong for three. Probably needs to be split in the spring to prevent swarming, but worry about it then. Too late to raise queens now.

Hawk


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## JB Allen (Sep 3, 2005)

That is exactly the advice I was looking for. thanks, JB


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

wow,I have heard that you should give the bees a space they can manage but assumed that to be mostly in reference to building up colonies,making splits,etc.
Now I know that I can be thick sometimes,but if you have a good strong hive,that has built up all summer/year,and has several boxes filled with everything that they need,arranged the way THEY want it,how can you "give them too much room"?
Like a wise man said,"it's like millions at our house".
I'm talking from a bee's point of view,of course,
Just wondering,as I may HAVE to leave my bees in 3-5 deeps,as I may not be able to lift these supers(I broke some ribs),and don't like asking for help with stuff.I thought that my bees would be very happy with this plan.
Am I wrong with this thinking?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I try to leave space as long as there is anything blooming, but that time is past now, here. I try to remove all the empty boxes and even frames, if I have some full frames I can replace them with. There will be plenty of empty space in the spring and once they start rearing brood they will burn up honey and pollen at an amazing rate. Especially compared to what they burn just maintaining the cluster.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

In VA you should be just fine with a bit of early spring feeding. I would be reluctant to moves frames too much this late in the year. Usually the bees know best. If your not sure, you may still have enought time to do some fall feeding. I think honey, pollen, and space are all important (in that order), but having a healthy looking bunch of bees is the main thing.


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## JB Allen (Sep 3, 2005)

We've fed all year to get comb drawn and are still feeding. We just switched to thick syrup. The bees are still flying heavily and bringing back pollen and what ever nectar they are finding. This has been a great post! Where else can you find this kind of help? Thanks again, JB


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

mwjohnson, I have to admit to a double deep w/ a medium in between that I'm overwintering. But other than that, yes you can give them too much room. I'm thinking NY isn't alot warmer than Colo. and they have shut down for the winter. There will be no more brood until Feb if I'm lucky. If the bees are covering all the frames in two deeps plus more, I should have split. Can correct in spring.

Actually I combined to get them this way. Hives don't keep this many bees. I'll reevaluate in the spring. I'll reevaluate all winter. I have a theory I'm testing. We'll see. If they're nembers go down enough to empty a box, I'll remove it. I feel spiders, ****roaches, etc. are my fault. and wax moths.

Hawk


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Hawk,

Minnesota has quite a cold winter. Doesn't U of minn recommend over wintering in three deeps, or is that just for spring build-up?


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

They probably do. How did Minn. getinto this conversation. Thread was started by J B Allen in VA. Then I was explaining to M W Johnson in NY. I am in Colo. You're in PA. Did I miss something? I told Y'all I was easily confused.

Hawk


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

O.K. That's two of us,at least.
I wasn't doubting anybody Hawk,just trying to rationalize my leaving half a ton of honey up on the hill for winter.
Like I said,I might not HAVE a choice  
If I can though,I would winter in 3 deeps,for several reasons.But that's me.
Thanks-Mark


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Just commenting that some (myself included) don't feel that too much space is necessarily an issue. I don't know about your bees, but mine form dense, warm clusters just inches away from the freezing cold. I don't really think that they heat the whole hive. I geuss moths could be an issue, but only with really weak colonies.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

In fact they don't heat the whole hive. The outside bees in the cluster act as the insulation while the bees in the center of the cluster flex wing muscles to create heat. As the outside bees get cold they are pulled into the cluster and replaced with active bees from within and the cycle goes on all winter. Some interesting thermal imaging done and published in Nov. 2003 ABJ on hives that were wrapped in 4's. The bees tended to migrate to the side of the hive which had bees next to it in the next hive so both clusters would be next to each other within the pack, within thier own hive. The thermal image projection of heated area was pretty amazing.

Aspera, as a point of interest,Drapers Super bee in Millerton increased yield by 10% and had better winter survival in 3 deeps after one of the sons tried that method even in light of admonisment for doing so by other family beekeepers.

[ October 25, 2005, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Joel, you never told me that. I never even thought about pushing two hives together for mutual warmth in winter. Humph!

Hawk


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

two deep is all that is needed to winter up here. Perhaps you are referencing needing three deep in a non feeding situation. Becasuse with two deep, feeding is needed as the brood nest shrinks.


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