# "No Treatment of Honey Bees Report" by StevenG



## Brooklyn

Steven,
Thanks for the report. I am new to beekeeping this will be my first year starting April 15th.

So thanks for the information. I am going to try and go chemical free.
:thumbsup:


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## KQ6AR

Hi Steven,
Just finished reading the report. You did a great job writing it, even a construction worker like me can follow along without getting lost.

Thanks,


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## StevenG

Brooklyn, in the words of Yoda, "Do not try. Do." :applause:
My take on this is that if you don't start with the right bees, you will fail. If you panic and treat, you'll never get off the treatment treadmill. I don't mean "you" personally, I mean all of us. I am more nervous about beekeeping now than I ever was the first time around. I've been second-guessing myself for two years now, and won't really know how it works out for another year or two. Mainly because I've sacrified what I know about getting a honey crop to both go treatment free and rapidly expand. 
Good luck to you!
Steven


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## peacekeeperapiaries

very detailed, i look forward to reviewing you progress. Thanks. :thumbsup:


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## StevenG

Ok folks, data on all 14 hives is now entered. There are a few formatting problems, but I'll deal with that another time. Got to finish equipment so I can expand up to 32 hives this spring. :doh:
Regards,
Steven


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## ccar2000

StevenG, I like the report. For me it was hard to figure what race of bees are in each hive. Maybe you could add that info where you have the hive number? I will be looking forward to your progress. I think it is important that we all strive towards imposing ourselves less.


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## StevenG

ccar2000, you're right, I wasn't as clear as I should have been re: strains of bees, as I started out. As you read the data, you see where I have the strains, or changed strains. I'll go back and make that change on the earlier data. I think it's more clear on later hives. 

I don't think at this point I'll label each hive at the heading, which strain it is, because I requeened a couple of them after a season or two, changing the strain. 
Thanks,
Steven


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## ACBEES

StevenG, read through your report...great job, good stuff. My main question is how do I post my report when I'm ready?


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## StevenG

acbees, pm Barry, the moderator about it. I don't know what he's worked up with other "powers that be" about the best way to handle whatever is generated as a result of this discussion. I look forward to reading your report!
Regards,
Steven


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## Monie

Thanks for doing this. I, too, believe in letting the bees build their immune systems which is hard to do if they are constantly bombarded with medications. My bees have dealt with nosema, shb, and dwv. I've done nothing more than requeen. Thus far, things are going well, and I haven't had a die out.


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## StevenG

March 15, 2010 temp. is 53, heavy overcast, light breeze, very cool day. I inspected the final two hives today, #1 and 2. Needless to say, the bees were extremely cranky. I do not usually wear gloves, but I did today, and was glad I did. If I didn't have to leave town tomorrow, I would have waited for a better day. 

The blog has been updated, to reflect my activities in the last few days. Hives needing feeding are being fed.

I began 2010 with 14 colonies. I lost only one colony over the winter - #4. Indications are starvation, perhaps aggravated by a small cluster unable due to cold weather to move into stores. That is a 7% loss, if I calculate correctly. Needless to say, I am _very_ pleased! And probably _very_ lucky! 

The next update will probably be around April 1.
Regards,
Steven


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## AstroBee

Nice job. One big question I have, (not trying to be critical) is why not at least monitor and record mite counts? Seems like you're really taking the time to document this effort, why not take it one step further and document mite levels? Seems like now if you loose a hive, unless the cause is totally obvious, you're somewhat left guessing as to what happened. With counts you could add data like: Sept. 1, 2010 hive 14 has 200 mites/ day, Nov. 30, 2010 hive 14 dead.

...just my 2 cents


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## ACBEES

I believe this thread was set up for reporting only. Discussion and comments should be posted at the "no treatment...do-ers only" thread. I believe discussion posts should be deleted from this thread by the moderator.


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## Blackwater Bee

StevenG,

Thanks for for sharing your Observations, very important stuff


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## Monie

ACBEES said:


> I believe this thread was set up for reporting only. Discussion and comments should be posted at the "no treatment...do-ers only" thread. I believe discussion posts should be deleted from this thread by the moderator.





StevenG said:


> Here it is. Between Barry's schedule and mine, it's taken a while. And do not ask me what I think of the word processing program that we have to use for this.
> 
> Here's the link: http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/
> 
> DO NOT post comments there. *We'll discuss it here.*
> 
> Regards,
> Steven


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## StevenG

sorry folks, I've been out of town for 10 days. 

Regarding discussion - the report posted on the blog and this thread are set up for discussion of the report to occur here. Rationale is that we can keep the discussion focused on the report better here, than if it is part of a generalized discussion. That way if you ask a question, here, you know you'll find the answer to your specific question, here.

Astrobee - regarding doing mite counts - I've been struggling with that thought. On the one hand I could have the kind of information you indicate, and that information might indicate mites were contributory to the death of the colony. On the other hand, if I do a mite count, and find the counts skyrocketing, I might be tempted to treat. Which would defeat my purpose in using and keeping resistant bees. On the third hand :lpf: is the ever-present issue of time. Do I really want to use my time to test for something that is basically irrelevant to me? The ultimate test is if the colony dies or survives. 

Now, the colony that starved, and the one that almost starved, had no deformed wings. If I successfully deal with moisture, starvation, lack of pollen, queenlessness, etc etc etc, my bees should thrive. So at this point, that's what I'm focused on. Right or wrong, I'm sticking with my plan at this point. I've read some of the more scientifically oriented postings on this forum, and I've come to the conclusion that we sideliners or back-yarders can have too much information. So much so that it kind of paralyzes us into inaction, because we don't know which is the "right" course of action to take. Beeks test, treat, count, their colonies dies. Beeks don't test, treat, count, their colonies die. I may have gotten lucky this year - I didn't test, treat, or count, and only lost one colony, out of 14. We'll see what happens next winter.

re: Critical - I didn't take your comment as being critical. In fact, I welcome suggestions and clarifying questions or comments. 
Regards,
Steven


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## StevenG

Today, March 27, I inspected all the hives after being gone almost two weeks. The blog is updated, here's the link in case you need it:
http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/

The weather was not conducive to doing what I really wanted to do. It was a cool 58-60 degrees, overcast, chilly breeze. The bees were really, and I mean really, cranky. So I wore gloves for a change, and glad I did. I did get most everything done I needed to do. I did notice some mites on drone pupae when frames were removed for inspection. I messed up, didn't note count or hive they were in. Realized my mistake when headed to the next group of hives. I'll make that note next time. However, in about 4 dozen pupae, I only saw about 5 mites... in about 5 colonies. But, :no: on me for not noting it in the journal. I could have guessed and gone back and entered it, but it would not have been accurate, so I didn't do it.

Each time I work the hives irrespective of the weather, because I know they have to be worked, I have a deeper appreciation for the commercial beeks who do this all the time, fair weather or foul. You simply gotta do what you gotta do. I honor them for their hard work. :applause:

If I didn't have to work, I'd not be so weather dependent. On Tuesday I'll feed the ones needing feeding, and prepare site named MARK B to receive 10 colonies when I get my nucs and make my splits. I'll do some of that next weekend, when weather permits, and will probably update the blog again then.

Regarding the foundationless frames I added to hive #2 because they had drawn some comb: I was surprised how much comb they had drawn since installing the deep super. Unfortunately, it looks to be mainly drone comb. I understand they'll draw what they need, but I sure didn't want solid frames of drone comb. I'll see what the queen lays in those cells, to be sure. But its like they started drawing comb in two or three different points at the top of the frame, and where they joined the comb, it's rather wavy. New experience for me. It could be it was simply too early for them to draw worker comb...but they sure did want to draw comb.

Remember, any questions or comments, post them here on this thread. Thanks!
Regards,
Steven


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## jajtiii

This looks great.

I do have a question about your queens. It appears that you have purchased queens for your requeening and splits. Is it your intent to continue to do this or will you start to rear your own queens?


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## StevenG

Yes, I have purchased all my queens for requeening and splits to this point. This year I'm purchasing 6 MnHyg queens also, to add to the genetics. I wanted to be sure I had good genetics

However, this year I also plan to make "walk away splits" and let several of my hives make their own queens. I hope to eventually get to the point where I raise my own queens. This year is the first step in that process. My guess is eventually I'll have "mutts", but I want to be sure they retain the survivability necessary. 

I will continue to purchase queens periodically, in order to keep the gene pool stirred up. lolol
Regards,
Steven


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## jajtiii

Excellent.

How will you choose your Queen mother? I am curious about this, as I also do not treat (well, I have been known to do a powdered sugar dump). I had intended to use my mite drop count as one of my indicators of a good queen mother (or genes that I wanted to pass along). What indicators do you plan to use?


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## StevenG

The splits I'm going to make to requeen themselves will come from hives that produced the largest surplus last year, went into winter with the best cluster, came out of winter with the best cluster, and are building up well this spring. So far I have three colonies that are perfect by those standards. 

One of them I haven't even had to feed this spring. Led by a Purvis queen, the cluster was still in the bottom box, with sealed honey above. That colony now seems to be exploding. The other two, one Russian and one B. Weaver, are bursting at the seams with bees. 

I'll watch my other colonies, naturally, to see if any are worth propagating. At this point when I make splits from those three, I'll try to work the parent hive for honey production, and then as the splits develop, pull a frame of eggs from the queen mother, and frames of brood and bees from her first generation offspring nucs, and grow more nucs. That way I'll get several first generation queens from the queen mother, and not impair honey production from the parent hive, I hope. :lpf: We'll see how that plan develops. If there are real good brood patterns from her daughters, and they build up quickly, I may do splits from her daughters... we'll see.
Regards,
Steven


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## StevenG

The blog has been updated tonight, April 5. I've started making splits, and as I do so, I introduce foundationless frames in the donor colonies. Got 6 splits made so far. Each "walk away" split will produce it's own queen. If all goes well, by first week of May, I'll have a laying queen in each colony. That will give them plenty of time to build up for next winter, and I might even get some surplus off them. Depending on the queen.


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## StevenG

Updated the blog today, Sunday, April 18th. I've made my walk-away splits, which seem to be doing well. I haven't gotten into them - had read you shouldn't do that for about 4 weeks. 2 weeks to go. 

Had a swarm today, fortunately I was able to hive it. Will know Tuesday whether I'll reunite it with parent hive, or keep it as a new colony.
Regards to all, who are following this.


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## Sam-Smith

StevenG said:


> Today, March 27, I inspected all the hives after being gone almost two weeks. The blog is updated, here's the link in case you need it:
> http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/
> 
> The weather was not conducive to doing what I really wanted to do. It was a cool 58-60 degrees, overcast, chilly breeze. The bees were really, and I mean really, cranky. So I wore gloves for a change, and glad I did. I did get most everything done I needed to do. I did notice some mites on drone pupae when frames were removed for inspection. I messed up, didn't note count or hive they were in. Realized my mistake when headed to the next group of hives. I'll make that note next time. However, in about 4 dozen pupae, I only saw about 5 mites... in about 5 colonies. But, :no: on me for not noting it in the journal. I could have guessed and gone back and entered it, but it would not have been accurate, so I didn't do it.
> 
> Each time I work the hives irrespective of the weather, because I know they have to be worked, I have a deeper appreciation for the commercial beeks who do this all the time, fair weather or foul. You simply gotta do what you gotta do. I honor them for their hard work. :applause:
> 
> If I didn't have to work, I'd not be so weather dependent. On Tuesday I'll feed the ones needing feeding, and prepare site named MARK B to receive 10 colonies when I get my nucs and make my splits. I'll do some of that next weekend, when weather permits, and will probably update the blog again then.
> 
> Regarding the foundationless frames I added to hive #2 because they had drawn some comb: I was surprised how much comb they had drawn since installing the deep super. Unfortunately, it looks to be mainly drone comb. I understand they'll draw what they need, but I sure didn't want solid frames of drone comb. I'll see what the queen lays in those cells, to be sure. But its like they started drawing comb in two or three different points at the top of the frame, and where they joined the comb, it's rather wavy. New experience for me. It could be it was simply too early for them to draw worker comb...but they sure did want to draw comb.
> 
> Remember, any questions or comments, post them here on this thread. Thanks!
> Regards,
> Steven


What your doing is awesome, there is way to much speculation in the beekeeping community imho. On the drone comb, what I have read is when suddenly given the freedom to draw their own comb they will draw a lot of drone, my tb hives had less then a frame of drone comb and all of it was natural comb, a big selling point of foundation is the inhabitation of drone comb (imho)

Sam.


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## StevenG

Sam, I think you're right about the selling point of foundation - it inhibits drone comb. However, I've noticed while going thru my hives, how the bees will take perfectly good foundation, and make the biggest section of drone cells you can imagine! Either centered in the bottom of the frame, in a semi-circle, or a wave of drone cells going up one side of the comb. 

Several folks have observed that the bees will build what they need and want, irrespective of our desires. Soooo true! The swarm I just hived, I put in a deep box with one frame of old worker brood cells, and 9 frames of foundationless. I've read a new swarm will build worker comb, so I'll see. And if so, I'm going to keep those little darlings as a separate colony, not reunite them with their parent hive, and let them build as much worker foundationless comb as they want. As long as they keep building worker comb, I'll keep adding boxes of deep frames. :lpf:
Regards,
Steven


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## Bsweet

Good report, Shows that record keeping is a must in our hobby.At the end of your report it seamed that you were letling you splits make their own queens I plane to let my two hives do the same as they both are 2 yr old and nonmedicated and appear to be doing good. we'll see. Thank you Jim


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## StevenG

Yes, I am letting my six splits make their own queens. However, the first week of May I pick up 2 nucs of Russians, and 2 nucs plus 6 queens of Minnesota Hygenic bees. I discovered that the breeder uses Thymol (?) an essential oil, once in the fall on his MnHyg bees. sigh... I may have made a mistake, but time will tell. I have had only one other colony of MnHyg and I never treated them, with any kind of mite treatment. However, in regular requeening, I did requeen them with a Purvis queen. So we'll see how these MnHyg bees do. 

I plan to pull 6 two-frame splits from existing colonies to hive those 6 MnHyg queens. Small, but I'll have enough time to build them up into two-deep brood boxes before fall. I want to get a honey crop off the donor colonies this year, else they'd donate more frames of brood and bees. 
Regards,
Steven


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## StevenG

Sunday, May 9th... 
I've updated the blog, here's the link: http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/

I have finished making my splits, and will now settle down to trying to get honey production, and preparing my increases for the upcoming winter. I started 2010 with 14 colonies, one starved, leaving 13. With purchasing 4 nucs, hiving one swarm, buying 5 queens, and 6 walk-away splits plus two unintentional walk-away splits (found frames of swarm cells!), I now have 31 colonies.

To be perfectly clear, I do not treat in any way, shape, or form, for mites. I do have sbb, and use AJ beetle eater traps. I also feed granulated sugar syrup, and have used some HBH in some of it... so far have fed approximately 700 pounds of sugar, and only one pint of hbh, so that gives you an idea of just how heavily I'm (not) feeding HBH. May be good, may be bad, but that's how it is.

Remember, any questions or comments should be posted on this thread.
Thanks for reading.
Steven


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## rweakley

Hey Steve, I notice you are using the AJ beattle eaters. Are you having that much trouble with the beatles? I live up in Sullivan, MO and so far knock on wood the only small hive beatles I have seen were in a tree I went and got in st.louis. The bees from that cut out quickly abscounded and I burned all the wax that I had cut out. I am also using a very limited treatment regime. I have only used oxalic acid for mites and at that I went 2 years with out doing that. I did 2 treatments in Jan or feb this year to knock them down some. I am all foundationless, they build what they want and if it's drone it goes to the outsides and we move on. Over the past winter I went into the winter with 8 hives. Lost 1 to its top blowing off and they got rained on, and one abscounded early spring from mice damage. So not bad considering the limited treatment.
Rod


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## StevenG

Good for you Rod! 
Re: shb, I have not had a problem with them down here in Poplar Bluff, I just have them...but I trap aggressively so they don't become a problem. Last year in some of my hives I had 4 AJ traps, and 2 of the cd jewel box traps. I really, really don't want to lose a hive to the shb.

Regarding mite treatments, I have never, ever treated for mites. HOWEVER, I started with bees that were advertised as not needing treatments - survivors some call them. Those, and Russian bees. I would NEVER advise a beek to go treatment free, unless he has bought or requeened with bees advertised as being "treatment free". To do otherwise is a guaranteed failure.

And keep watching for those mites. I understand they can fly 20 miles at a time. Or if you buy a nuc or a package, you're bound to get a bonus! 
Regards,
Steven


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## rweakley

I understand about the beatles and not wanting to lose a hive to them, they are nasty little creatures. a hive that has died due to varroa, the frames can be reused, a hive that dies from beatles maybe not. I no longer buy packages or NUCS. all of my bees now are muts. Probably new world carnolians and russians, but I let them do the requeening and if I do a split I always let them raise their own queen. I think having bees acliamatize to our area is a good thing. I think going to using your own queens would be the next step for your project down the road.
Rod


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## StevenG

rweakley said:


> I think going to using your own queens would be the next step for your project down the road.
> Rod


I'm already moving that way, Rod. I did 6 walk away splits this year, and each raised their own queen. 5 were Purvis mutts, 1 is a Weaver mutt. My donor Weaver hive is going great guns. So much so I plan to buy enough queens from them next year to do about 20 splits, and requeen 20 colonies. I'll do the same with my Russians, in a separate apiary. That should give me the genetics I want to continue treatment free.

I really want to see what my Weaver mutts do this year. Some concern has been expressed that the second generation becomes very hot. I'll know in a few months if that is the case. But so far, I love those bees!
Regards,
Steven


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## rweakley

My hottest hives have always been my Russians. Well there is that one hive I got from a cut out (wild mutts I guess) that was so hot that as soon as you took the lid off BAM they were out in force to get you. My Russians have always been similar. Maybe they new I have always been a committed anti communist. Just think 5 years from now, no treatments and all home bred bees, you'll be selling queens. We'll call them G-Queens.


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## Sam-Smith

StevenG are you moving towards converting all your hives to foundation-less? Because I believe you need to regress them for the benefits to be fully realised, I know Mr bush (and I agree) thinks foundation-less is a must for natural mite control, all my cut-outs are feral so they have naturally regressed themselves. Just wondering what direction you are going with the foundation issue.

Sam


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## StevenG

Hi Sam!

My main reason for going foundationless is to minimize chemical contamination of the brood comb. Not using chemicals myself, I don't want to "import" any via foundation in the brood chamber. I realize bees will bring chemicals in via pollen and nectar, and unfortunately that cannot be avoided.

Regarding regressing and small cell, I've read all I could on that. There seems to be some disagreement as to how effective small cell is. 

By going foundationless, I'll simply let the bees take care of that debate themselves. I'll assist them by providing the frames and guides, and minimizing chemical contamination of the comb. My first efforts resulted in a horrendous amount of drone comb. But after making some splits and hiving a swarm, those colonies are producing beautiful brood comb. And it seems to be much lighter in color than comb drawn on foundation. As I cycle frames in and out of the hive, I figure the bees will produce what they need, whether small cell, large cell, worker cell, drone cell. 
Regards,
Steven


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## arthur

how big a deal is chemical contamination of foundation? are there some good sources on that?

my bees draw out perfectly white comb on foundation, btw.


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## StevenG

Greetings Arthur....

According to some, it is becoming a big deal. Here is a link to a discussion about it: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216872&highlight=contamination+foundation

Also, do a search on this site for contamination of foundation, or comb. The problem is that wax comb acts as a sponge, absorbing all sorts of things that the bees bring into the hive, or beekeepers put into the hive. Then when that wax is recovered, rendered, and sold to the bee supply houses who make it into foundation, those chemicals stay in the wax. As the bees draw wax foundation out, to a small degree they stretch the sides of the cells on the foundation as they add their own wax to it to make the comb. Thus you'll have chemical contamination of the bottom of the cell, where the egg lays and hatches, and part of the side walls. 

I have read (sorry, don't remember where) that this contamination leads to some fertility problems with drones and queens... Not having done the studies, and not being a scientist, I don't know the veracity of this. But in general, personally, I think there is reason to be concerned about chemical contamination of foundation.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Steven


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## rweakley

Going a little t: but staying pretty close. First of all it would be surprising if the bees didn't produce a frame of mostly drone comb soon after switching from foundation to foumdationless. Think of it this way I'm a cook and I love peanut butter and chocolate chip cookies, for the longest time I couldn't get any chocolate chips, but then suddenly I get a whole big box of chips what kinda cookies am I going to make You betcha chocolate chip. OK now I am on my soap box American beekeepers are doing themselves and the rest of us a huge disservice by only using worker foundation. Africanized bees in the wild don't have any foundation, they make the proper # of drones. which means in areas of an infestation at the DCAs there are going to be more African drones then nice gentle European drones. We are handicapping ourselves in the fight against those pests from the south. I probably won't have to worry too much myself if it's true the africanize don't over winter well because we get a pretty good winter here, but it is something to think about. Off my soap box.


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## StevenG

True, the proponents of foundationless say the bees build what they need. I've seen beautiful worker comb "spoiled" by a big chunk of drone comb in the middle bottom of the frame... they do make what they need.

I had mentioned elsewhere that I horizontal wire my foundationless frames, because you never know.... Turns out one deep box is full of foundationless frames, and drone comb. After the drones hatched out, the bees filled those cells with honey, so now I have an unexpected bonus, a deep super full of honey! Fortunately I had cross wired those frames, so they shouldn't be too hard to extract without blowing out. If I'm careful with the speed on my new extractor.
Regards,
Steven


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## Bumbles

Ive read your blog, because I also went chemical free last year. I really appreciate you doing this. It helps me compare results with what I'm doing. BTW, how do you post a blog? To whom, or where do you submit it? I've been documenting my misadventures from the beginning. 

ALSO, if you're looking for queens that are from chemical free stock, try BJORN APIARIES. He raises hygienic queens that would give you good genetic diversity to mix in with your stock. I can get you contact info if you need.

_*"So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains ,and we never even know we have the key"
Eagles*_


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## beecuz

Steven - Thanks for all the hard work - your report is interesting and helpful. 

BeeCuz


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## StevenG

Bumbles, thanks for the head's up on Bjorn Apiaries, I'll check them out. Regarding blogs, contact the moderator, Barry. I don't know what the criteria are for blogs. When the discussion developed around doing a study blog, Barry chimed in, and away we went.

Beecuz, glad you find it interesting. I must admit, by doing the report, its forcing me to focus on better record-keeping, and it is amazing what I'm learning by that. 

FYI, i got this idea from Grant Gilliard. I take a spiral notebook with me, make my notes on each hive right after working it. Then return home, and transfer those notes into an organized ring binder. I check those notes before going out the next time, and make a list of things to do with the hives. Saves a lot of time, keeps me focused, and minimizes surprises. Except for the list of things to do, all those notes appear in the blog, unedited. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Sam-Smith

On the wax contamination issue, another problem is this same foundation wax keeps getting reused so the concentrations of those chems will only rise. 
Have you thought off adding feral bees to your collection? Especially survivors, feral colonies that are more then one year old?


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## StevenG

Hi Sam-smith. I think you're correct regarding the increasing level of contamination in foundation. It would be interesting to know if any of the major players in the foundation market would render a particular beek's wax into foundation, and what it would cost. My guess is, at this point, the beek couldn't afford it. But it would be interesting to know.

Regarding feral bees: The supposition is that most of the truly feral bees have been killed off by varroa. I don't think that is correct, some have probably survived, but not many. Again, just supposition. But think how many bees you see in nature today? or in yards? Not nearly like it was 20 years ago. So regarding feral bees, I'm operating on the assumption they resulted from swarms from a beekeeper, and may or may not have the traits I want. Personally I do not clip my queens. I try to prevent swarming, but figure if a hive swarms, it is my contribution to reestablishing bees in the wild. Soon to become feral. I'll catch and trap any swarms I can, but I won't go out of my way looking for feral bees. Perhaps after I retire and have more time!  Some beeks swear by ferals, and it makes sense to me. Just not my cup of tea at this time.
Regards,
Steven


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## beecuz

StevenG said:


> Hi Sam-smith. I try to prevent swarming, but figure if a hive swarms, it is my contribution to reestablishing bees in the wild.
> Regards,
> Steven


I agree. 
I recently surrendered a swarm to a nearby oak. Now, every time I visit the bee yard I look up at the oak tree see the bees happy and settled, buzzing around their new home...and I am just as happy to have them a part of my 
"bee kingdom" even though they are too high for me to harvest. Just having them there is such a joy. I guess I am hooked. 

___________
"For breath is sweeter taken even as the last in places dear...
With gardens, fields and dogwood trees...
In forest stands of bamboo shoots...
Of ginger root and honey bees..."


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## StevenG

The blog has been updated. http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/

I had a bit of a disaster. I had purchased 6 MnHyg queens, picked them up, brought them home to install. One was dead when I arrived. Installed the five. Today checked them. 1 was still in the queen cage, so I released her, she moved down into the hive. 2 had been released, but could not find them and there was no sign of eggs. 2 were dead in their cages, all the candy was gone. Sigh, this has never happened to me before, but such is life. I have already ordered 5 new queens from B. Weaver.

I had thought about giving those 4 hives frames with eggs, and letting them raise their own queens. Then I got to my #2 hive...the one that swarmed this year? The one that I pulled two nucs out of this year? It has filled a deep super with honey, and in the last 8 days drew out and filled a shallow super of foundation. I gave it a second super this afternoon. 

I realized by ordering I'd have a laying queen in about 10 days, as opposed to 30-37 days. Plus I'd really like to have 5 more hives like my #2! 
Regards,
Steven


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## rweakley

Steve if you want 5 more hives like # 2 I would strongly suggest pulling eggs frome there to make queenswith. I figure getting queens from most suppliers is just as much of a blank shoot as making your own. Consider this: week 1) pull 1 frame off eggs frome hive # 2 ( won't set them back much) pull capped brood, honey and pollen from other hives. Week 2) same, so on and so forth. If all you are pulling from your good hive is a frame of eggs once a week,they should be fine, in fact honey prod may go up because they don't have that frame of brood to raise. This time of year how much are the eggs laid now going to help with overall honey harvest? It will be into June before they are foraging, and isn't that hitting the end of clover for us. Get some good queens from your boomer, save some $$, and rock on. Unless you are buying breeder queens or artificially ins who knows what you are gonna get, I bet queens from your boomer are just as good or better than most avg queens you get by ordering.

Rod


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## StevenG

Hi Rod,

Yes, I've already pulled two splits off that hive to raise queens. I've ordered 5 queens from the same source as that one, to requeen a weak hive,and some that are queenless. I don't want to weaken my "boomer" at all, as I have to have a good crop this year, for financial reasons... 

Things will be done differently next year. It is a lot more difficult keeping bees now, than 20 years ago...but where have we heard that before? :doh: This is also the first year that I have hives that should produce a surplus, as I've been in an expansion mode since restarting in beekeeping. 
Regards,
Steven


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## StevenG

The blog has been updated.

My new B. Weaver queens are supposed to arrive this week, and will solve several problems. I think pushing for growth, going from 13 to 31 colonies has cost me honey production this year. Coupled with the fact that I'm having them build comb, as I don't have any! They get foundation, or foundationless. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Sam-Smith

On feral population, first off bees are not native so all bees in north America came from some where else and thus non are truly native feral, second I have personally cut out hives that have survived for 3 or more years, one house has had bees for 20 years (not the same colony of course) I have read that 3 or 4 years is about the lifespan of a colony before the comb gets to dark. I am convinced that there are way more that I have not heard of. You could always post a notice in your local paper about bee removal. Bees are not easy to spot, if I was walking through a forest I wouldn't be able to hear just one hive unless I was less then 50 feet away on a quite day. Of course removing a colony is not easy, you can get a lot more colonies buying them then hunting around for em. Don't take this the wrong way I'm not trying to rebuke you or anything just defending feral bees I guess  ^== "fruitcake"


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## beerated

Hi Steven G,

Great reporting. I too am working 3 colonies treatment free. So far so good. All Italians.1 colony from California,1 from Georgia and 1 from South Bend Indiana.California from a 2lb box,Georgia 3lb. and Indiana a Very Fine nuc from
Bob a beekeeper near Mishawaka.All are doing well.Will post information too.
Maybe not as detailed as your report though. Thanks Ray


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## StevenG

Greetings folks!

I updated the blog last night. New entries on all hives are dated 5/29; 6/4; 6/22; and 6/26. Here's the link if you don't want to go thru BeeSource home page: http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/

Our honey flow is over, and I'll be pulling honey this holiday weekend. Next report will be on the harvest results. The colonies I'm not pulling honey from I'm feeding to get them to finish brood comb, and get them ready for winter. Trust me, it is not too early to start planning for winter, and next spring!

I had abysmal results with the MnHyg queens. Most failed, and were replaced with B. Weaver queens. I've had 5 of my splits go queenless, thus instead of 33 colonies, I now have 28. But, growing from 13 in March to 28 now, with splits and only 2 nucs isn't so bad. 

Thanks for reading.
Regards,
Steven


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## bjoynes

Hi Steve G,

Noticed from your blog that you spray for ants. Can you give more detail on products used for ant control, and how you go about this procedure.

Thanks

Bryn


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## StevenG

Actually the best ant solution I read from another beek on the forum - cinnamon sprinkled on the inner cover.

When I spray, I use ant and roach spray... 6-12" out from the hive stand, very close to the ground, a circle around the hive. Keep it real close to the ground so there's no drift to the hive. In front, I go further out if the ant trails are that direction... because I've seen bees on the ground in front. So far no indicatino of any problem with the bees/spray.
Regards,
Steven


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## StevenG

Sorry for the delay in updating, but it has not been a pleasant season. When I began this project, I promised to be honest - the good, the bad, and the ugly. However, I did not anticipate proctologically ugly...

Last year, the honey on the hives July 4 was all the honey I got when I pulled and extracted around Labor Day. So the July 4th weekend I pulled and extracted, exactly 180 pounds from 11 hives, for a whopping 16 pound average! To add insult to injury, I've lost 6 hives, so I'm down from 32 to 26 colonies now. Started with 13 in March, so I guess that isn't too bad. 

I hired a high school senior to help me move 11 hives to soybeans July 15, and promptly got heat exhaustion, violently physically ill, to go along with a multitude of stings. Won't bore you with the details, except I'm never doing that again. Will mount those hives permanently on a flat bed trailer, and simply trailer them next year. 

Details are in the blog. I have great hopes for those 11 hives on soybeans to save my year. Who said beekeeping was easy? Never a dull moment. :lpf:
Regards,
Steven


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## jajtiii

Heat exhaustion is serious business. I'm glad you made it out ok.

I have an opportunity to put some hives on soy beans, but have not taken them up on it as I was afraid that they would be sprayed.

Do they not spray in your area or do you cover them during the spray?


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## StevenG

Thanks jajtiii, appreciate that.
Apparently here they either don't spray, or spray before the bloom. Not sure. From what I understand, soybean location makes all the difference in the world whether one gets a honey crop or not. 
May I make a suggestion? The person who offered to let you put your hives on soybeans, ask if and when they spray. You might be surprised...and it might be worth it to see if you can get a honey crop.
Good luck!
Steven


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## StevenG

Greetings all!

The blog has been updated today. Here's the link for those interested: http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/

Glad I listened to a friend, and moved bees to soybeans. They saved my year, such as it was. Got a total of 500.5 pounds from 13 colonies this year, most of it from soybeans. Unfortunately I checked with the farmer about the possibility of him spraying the beans, four days after he and his neighbors sprayed. Lost all my field bees. Flow came to a screeching halt. They recovered, but... well, we live and learn. Now getting the colonies ready for winter, and ordering materials from the bee supply shops for next spring.
Regards,
Steven


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## Blackbrood

You might be interested in this article about a chap in Swindon, England breeding a varroa resistant/tolerant bee

click here

It doesnt tell all the story and in this months Bee Craft (October 2010) magazine is a full interview. Apparently what he has found out is that some bees actually attack mites and/or open up larvae and remove them from the cell to kill them, so what he has been doing is he examines the mites that fall under a microscope and which ever hives are best at killing varroa he then uses these colonies to breed from, thus breeding a bee that will attack/kill and remove varroa from the colony. He says you can tell a varroa killed be a bee in that it will have legs pulled off and other parts as varroa are very soft skinned. He says you can also tell the colonies that remove them from the cells too because he sees lots of immature white varroa mites on the drop boards.

Non of his colonies he says are free from varroa but they all have very low varroa populations and he has not treated for varroa since 2000 or 2001. Not bad going. He also states he breeds all his own queens and uses local stock that are accustomed to local climatic conditions. It is an interesting article to read

He says what he is doing any beekeeper could do and in fairness he is right. I think he says he uses a 40x magnification microscope to inspect the mites


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## Delta Bay

> He also states he breeds all his own queens and uses local stock that are accustomed to local climatic conditions.


 Keep everything local including mites which are also part of the equation. Should help to breed a less virulent mite to the local bees over time.


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## Blackbrood

Delta Bay said:


> Keep everything local including mites which are also part of the equation. Should help to breed a less virulent mite to the local bees over time.



I dont think the mite would be affected/become less virulent. when breeding the queens he keeps them and the drones secluded however that might be, so he can chose father as well as mother. but once workers start flying they will bring mites in from all over not just his apiary, and by all over I mean more than 3miles away.


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## jajtiii

That's one way to do it, I suppose, but I personally believe that breeding livestock for resistance to one pest out of many that attack it is not a wise strategy. You want livestock that can prevail against all of its current enemies. It may not be your best hive against the V Mites, but it holds its own when assailed against all known (and unknown) attackers.

If you assume that there are unknown attackers out there (i.e. you have not come to a definitive conclusion as to what is causing CCD), it is even more important to simply leave your hives alone and breed from those that continue to survive, year in and year out, without feed, sugar or chemicals (one could argue that you could still feed them and you would only be countering environmental factors, I suppose.)


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## StevenG

jajtiii said:


> If you assume that there are unknown attackers out there (i.e. you have not come to a definitive conclusion as to what is causing CCD), it is even more important to simply leave your hives alone and breed from those that continue to survive, year in and year out, without feed, sugar or chemicals (one could argue that you could still feed them and you would only be countering environmental factors, I suppose.)


To me that is the key, which is why I began this report - to show folks there are bees available to us that do not need treatments, chemicals, etc to survive the mites and shb etc. And yes, I do sugar feed, and this fall am applying Mega bee also. 

Seems like more and more beeks are seeing the wisdom of a resistant bee, and non-treatment or not using chemicals. Personally I'd like to get back to the kind of beekeeping I did in the 1970's, only fed sugar occasionally as needed in times of dearth. But that isn't going to happen...seems like there are so many more chemicals in the environment the bees have to cope with.
Regards,
Steven


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## AR Beekeeper

In July of 2005 I placed 12 colonies with sister queens (Buckfast from Fergusons Apiaries) in a "live or let die" yard. My purpose was to see how long they would live without varroa mite treatments. The colonies were over wintered from 2004. They had been treated for varroa in August 2004 and then requeened in July 2005. 

They have received no management other than a check in spring and fall for disease and being queenright. Honey has not been removed but supers have been equalized among colonies in the fall. They are in standard 10 frame Langstroth equipment and are on Pierco plastic frames. They have received no treatments of any kind.

As of today there are 5 colonies still alive. The queens are all swarm or supersedure queens from the original 12. Drones for the queens to mate with were from russian, Weaver Buckfast, and Minnesota Hygenics and drones from the surviving Ferguson Buckfast. The seven dead colonies (2 each year in 07,08,09 and one this past March) all happened when they failed to overwinter and it appeared they had queen failures in late fall or winter. 

April of next year I am taking any remaining colonies out of service and placing the queens in nucs. I am going to raise queens from these and remake 12 colonies using those queens. I will let them draw new comb and then check these for varroa resistance and honey production. I plan to manage these colonies with regular checks, I think had I been checking I would not have lost the 7 that I did. I would have seen the queen failing in time to replace her and save the colony.


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## bbbbeeman

AR,I have not used chems or any thing in my hives sence 1994, I do have a screen bb with an oil pan under it , it kills every thing that falls in it .yes it was nice keeping bees in the 60`s and 70`s , I hope more beeks will try to go treatment free. but most look for the easy or the less expensive way of beekeeping. and the queen lived longer and most of the time more productive.It looks like everthing is going to hell in a hand basket ,but we can try to save our bee as best we can. good luck rock.


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## oparea

bbbbeeman said:


> AR,I have not used chems or any thing in my hives sence 1994, I do have a screen bb with an oil pan under it , it kills every thing that falls in it .yes it was nice keeping bees in the 60`s and 70`s , I hope more beeks will try to go treatment free. but most look for the easy or the less expensive way of beekeeping. and the queen lived longer and most of the time more productive.It looks like everthing is going to hell in a hand basket ,but we can try to save our bee as best we can. good luck rock.


Just like to chime in. Have had 2 hives of MN hygienic since 2006, have not treated them once and they are still doing great. I do have screened bottom boards, had a problem with deformed wing virus last year but the queen seemed to outbreed the mites. Also used the green drone frames in that hive to get the mite levels down.


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## Myron Denny

Ark Beekeeper I need to visit with you about your procedure.
Myron Denny
Glencoe OK

[email protected]


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## StevenG

Greetings all!

The blog has been updated. http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/ I finished up 2010. 
For those who have not read from the beginning, I restarted in beekeeping April 8, 2006, with treatment free bees from B. Weaver. This April begins my 6th year, with absolutely no treatments for mites. You can read the details on the blog if you wish.

No postings have been made yet for 2011, because I haven't opened any hives yet. I've walked by them. I've listened to some, but don't plan to open for another week or two. At that point, I'll feed Mega Bee patties, and possibly 1:1 sugar syrup. Will report that here. 

As most of us are, I am rather anxious to see how many of my colonies made it through the winter. I entered the winter with 26 lives colonies. I plan to expand up to 50 this year. I've already ordered 20 queens from B. Weaver, to pick up in April. So, until next time, may Winter be kind to you!
Regards,
Steven


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## StevenG

2011 reporting begins!

The blog has been updated, inspections were made this past week for the first time this year. http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/

Summation - entered the winter with 26 hives, lost 4. 15%, which isn't too bad, more than I would have liked. 2 clusters were pinned in place by brood, and starved with plenty of honey in the colony. 1 colony had queen issues late in the fall apparently, and dwindled to death. Last colony seems to have absconded last fall, or had a queen issue. You can read the details on the blog. Two other colonies I'm concerned about. We'll see.

I inspected without gloves, except for the 5 hives in my back yard. Three of them were real, and I mean, REAL cranky. Other two were pussycats. But, I had already been stung 6 times in the other yard, and the first colony I opened let me know how upset they were, so I donned the gloves. 

20 queens were ordered from B. Weaver late last year, for pickup in April. I'm proceeding with my planned splits, and putting 20 colonies on a trailer to move to soybeans after the clover is over. I hope to be at 50 colonies by fall, we'll see. 

Hope you all have a great year this year!


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## sqkcrk

StevenG said:


> 2011 reporting begins!
> 
> 15%,


Me too.


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## bbm

what if I don't divide the hive so often? I know they will swarm, but my purpose to start beekeeping is not for honey production, is for the environment. Will my colonies still be strong?


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## StevenG

bbm, I've been dividing in order to increase my colony numbers. I want to get up to 50 colonies before leveling off. In fact, you don't ever have to divide. You simply need to practice good swarm control measures. Of course you'll lose swarms, but that simply repopulates the feral populations, which is good for the environment. 

My take is, if you manage for honey production, you'll have the populations that benefit the environment, namely a strong and healthy hive. A strong, healthy hive does great job pollinating, but also producing honey. And when you have your very own first honey on a hot buttered biscuit, you may not be so altruistic! :lpf: (just teasing! But there is nothing better than your own honey on a hot buttered biscuit)

If you decide you don't want a lot of extracted honey for your use and to sell or give away, keep only one or two colonies. Or produce comb honey, a bit of a tasty speciality.
Regards,
Steven


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## Ted Kretschmann

I applaud, believe it or not what you are trying to do. But after reading through the blog and seeing that you have fed Honey bee healthy, which is an IPM essential oil concoction, used to help bees overcome all kind of problems. Thus you are not 100% treatment free. So with that in mind I would suggest setting up an IPM apiary, rotating soft chems like Thymol, hops guard, Formic and good old fashion apistan, which is a soft pyritherin over a period of two to four years. Used in conjuction with VHS/SMR commercial stock ,which can be aquired from several commercial breeders who post on this forum..... IPM will require you to do mite counts and physical methods like screened bottoms or partially screened pallets. Then you can compare the two methods-treatment free/semi treatment free or IPM on their results for hive survivability, honey production and cost of keeping those colonies alive. Thus the comparative results can thus be posted. TED


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## StevenG

Thanks for the input Ted. You're still going to owe me a steak dinner in 10 years! 

I started the blog as the result of some very heated discussion back then on this forum about the success of treatment free beekeeping - esp. as it relates to mites. In fact, back then, Treatment Free basically referred to chemical treatments of mites. The concept has expanded considerably since then. My original intent was not to do a comparative study, because there were those much smarter than I who were telling me what I would need to do in order to have a bonafide study. 

Before reentering beekeeping, I subscribed to both magazines, and studied the new problems. I decided early on to get bees that would not require a lot of treatments. So, I decided to do a report. Working full time, caring for a 92-year-old mother-in-law who lives with us, and a wife with Parkinson's, I don't have the time I'd like to devote to the bees. I had then, and still have, no desire to do a scientific study. I simply want to report my experiences so those beekeepers who want to keep a few hives can see what options might be available to them.

By the same token, I hope that some commercial beeks might glean a nugget or two from my efforts. Especially if I'm able to get my honey production up where it was in the 1970's-'80's, namely 100 pounds per colony here in Missouri. I know there are parts of the country where that is low, but it is still nearly double the Missouri average.

What I have learned so far: the MnHyg (Minnesota Hygenic) strain doesn't work so well for me. The second and third generation Purvis doesn't hold up (and Purvis is no longer in the queen business, so that's a moot point). The jury is still out on my Russians. The B. Weavers do the best overall, hands down. But sometimes the second or third generation gets a little warm lpf: a couple are downright hot! and got requeened a couple weeks ago). I'm going to try some of Russell's bees this year and next.

Regarding "treatment free", by the current definitions, regarding mites I'm treatment free. In other areas? Not so much. But that's ok. I think WLC made an interesting observation in a recent post that perhaps we can never really get off the treadmill. I'd modify his comment to say We're all on a treadmill, we just choose how elaborate that treadmill is. I'm going to try to keep mine as simple as possible.

So, while I think your observation is on target, and such a study might be beneficial, I have no interest in doing such a study. I'm simply reporting on what's happening as I am mite treatment free, and minimal treatments of other kinds.

(I still think even commercials will be mite treatment free in 15 years [you said 10 so you'd have a better chance at getting that steak from me!]. And Stonefly told me to insist you have salad along with your steak.  10 or 15, get ready to pay up! I'm not going to forget! :banana
Warmest regards,
Steven


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## Ted Kretschmann

Did stonefly also tell you I prefer baked beans with the steak?? At least that was his observation while down here helping me--that I ate too many baked beans. But back on topic. Somebody needs to do a comparative study with real data generated. I am also a pre 1984 beekeeper and remember higher honey yields. Bees do not build up a strong due to mite predation, thus the lower yields in honey production. TK


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## Myron Denny

Dadants have a film titled Organic Beekeeping 101, we have a local beekeeping group that meets monthly, does this film answer questions or just tell us what the problems are?
How long does it take to see the film?
Does it promote treatment free beekeeping?
Do you know of a better treatment free film for a group to see?
I sent this info to Dadants and so far they have not answered.
Myron Denny


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## StevenG

Sorry Myron, I haven't seen that film so I know nothing about it. And I haven't seen any videos on organic beekeeping or treatment free beekeeping, so I can't make any recommendations there.
Steven


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## johnblagg

nice report and very good to know some one in my area has broke the ground ahead of me ....now I have a much better idea of what kind of queens would be good here and lol I may even have a swarm that escaped from yours in the past .....collected it by the industrial park on fair street last spring


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## DeeAnna

StevenG wrote in his blog: "...2. “No Treatment” means I shall not put any medications in my hives. Nothing for mites, nothing for Nosema. No essential oils, no powdered sugar dustings, no treatments of any kind...."

Ted Kretschmann wrote in post #74: "...seeing that you have fed Honey bee healthy, which is an IPM essential oil concoction..."

I looked at Steven's blog and could not find any mention of the use of HBH. Admittedly I only used a fine toothed comb, and not a laser. Could someone enlighten me on this point? Thanks in advance!


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## jajtiii

DeeAnna, what on earth are you going to do with the answer to this question? If he did use HBH, does that mean to you that treatment free doesn't work? What about his hives? Were they made in some natural manner with absolutely no trace of 'unnatural' method (I assure you that they were not, unless a tree grew them)? What about the hive stand? If they are cement blocks, does that detract from the 'I do not treat for mites' methodology in you mind?

Heh. What about your grass? Do you cut it with a mower? That's certainly not 'free of treatment'. Did you have someone transport your hive/package/nuc with a horse? I hope it wasn't fed with bailed hay (at least not bailed by something running on fossil fuels.)

Understand the point. Otherwise you spend you life missing the forest for the trees.


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## DeeAnna

Ted referred to the use of HBH in Steven's report. I couldn't find any reference to HBH in said report. So either I missed Steven's comments about HBH, or Ted is mistaken about said use of HBH in Steven's hives. 

I'd like to know which it is. Just that and only that. I am a newbie to beekeeping, and I want to learn. I can't do that unless I ask questions about things that are not clear to me. 

I do NOT have some agenda about "treatment free" or otherwise, and anyone who assumes that I do is completely incorrect. I am just politely asking a simple question that deserves a courteous, factual answer. 

What am I going to do with the answer to my question? It will help me to better understand the methodology he is following with his beekeeping.


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## StevenG

Hi DeeAnna, and welcome! 

Ted was right. A couple years ago perhaps, I gave one feeding of HBH in sugar syrup. The only feeding of HBH until last week. 

When I started, my intent was not to get on the chemical treadmill treating for mites and other pests. I bought bees that are supposed to be treatment free, and that's the course I've taken. Some beeks use acids, essential oils, powdered sugar, and who knows what else to treat for mites. I don't. 

Since last year, there has been a new thread on the forum on treatment free beekeeping. I used to read and post there, but gave it up as they were too busy arguing about what a treatment was and wasn't, and I just don't have time for that. I also have not updated the blog, and at this point don't plan to. The link to it no longer exists here, and I find updating the blog to be extremely cumbersome. I had surgery on my right shoulder 2 weeks ago, which has slowed me down. All is well though. I'm just an old fart (turned 63 this past Tuesday) and I decided some things I just don't have to do or put up with any more. 

Now, having said that, I do plan to post regular summary updates here, for those who care to follow. To me, feeding HBH in sugar syrup as a stimulative for hive health and brood rearing is not a mite treatment. But I probably ought to say I'm semi-treatment free, for the purists. 

For an update: I made splits, ordered 20 B. Weaver queens, and 2 Russians. Several of my donor hives had issues, some of the splits had issues. I went foundationless a couple years ago, and for me that was a really big mistake. Been tryijng to clean that up, which probably caused issues with a couple of hives that absconded and/or died out. Had to order 3 more Weaver queens and 2 Russians 2 weeks ago. They're here, and installed. I ended last fall with 27 hives, began this season with 23 hives. I've made 21 splits this year, and should be at 44 hives, but now I'm at 38 colonies. Should be at 50, just didn't make it. 

Last year I fed 1800 pounds of granulated sugar to 14 colonies in the spring and 27 colonies in the fall. So I stocked in the sugar which I got wholesale, had 2500 pounds of it first of April. Have only fed 200 pounds, splitting my colonies from 23 (had deadouts) up to 44, but lost several for various reasons. Now have 38colonies. 

For me, personally, the issue is: What do I put in my hives? We beeks have put so many different things into them, without understanding the long term ramifications. So I tend to err on the side of caution, and want to minimize what I put in my hives. Ergo the bare minimum - and other than an occasional stimultative feeding of granulated cane sugar syrup with HBH, some MegaBee patties, and a rare Nosema treatment, that's all they get.

Hope this helps, and feel free to ask any questions any time. I'll do my best to answer.
Regards,
Steven


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## DeeAnna

Hi, Steven -- Thank you for your answer to my question. I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I thought it was likely that I'd missed the info in your blog/report, but I couldn't figure that out for sure, so the feedback is a great help.

"...A couple years ago perhaps, I gave one feeding of HBH in sugar syrup. The only feeding of HBH until last week...."

My goodness, you got a lot of mileage out of that one feeding of HBH! 

Like you, I have also been reading the treatment-free forum. I usually glean a few nuggets of good information from most threads, but the frequent digressions and heated side-debates often make it tough going. Not a good situation for a newbie, but that's the way life (and BeeSource) usually goes.

Your ongoing report has been extremely helpful. It has been great to be able to clearly follow what you are doing with your hives and learn what is working for you and what isn't. I look forward to following this thread about your beekeeping. Thank you for being willing to share this information on BeeSource.

Regards, DeeAnna


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## StevenG

Greetings folks!

Thanks for your kind words DeeAnna.

I had a pm question from Tim in KY about some issues I had with foundationless, and I thought I'd answer here to help others. When I went foundationless, I didn't have much drawn comb, and was expanding. So I simply put a 10-frame foundationless deep on some hives, because that was what I had. BIG mistake! Some comb was drawn nicely, most was drawn willy-nilly, and woven together in such a way you couldn't get the frames apart without major damage. So I thought to use a queen excluder and eventually get those boxes to the top of the hive with honey in them, them extract. Sigh, not going smoothly. And most of the comb they drew was the ugliest drone comb you ever saw. And paradoxically, some hives drew out beautiful worker comb. Others have mentioned that they'll draw drone comb until they have enough, then draw worker. But I've never seen so many drones in my colonies. 

Ok, what I've learned. Gotta put foundationless frames between nicely drawn worker brood comb, and the bees will draw the foundationless nice and straight. Generally. lolol I use wedge top, divided bottom bar frames, that's what I had. I simply turned the wedge and nailed it in vertically, instead of as it is supposed to be nailed in. Bees used that as a guide, and it worked very well. I did not use starter strips of foundation. You cannot put foundationless frames in between frames of foundation...bees will do what they want, and you won't like it. 

I'm reverting to foundation, until I get the messes cleaned up. Though I am doing some foundationless as a continuing test. But I'm not as enamored of it as some are. FWIW
Regards,
Steven


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## Acebird

What is HBH?


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## StevenG

HBH, Honey Bee Healthy


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## beeG

StevenG said:


> I went foundationless a couple years ago, and for me that was a really big mistake. Been tryijng to clean that up, which probably caused issues with a couple of hives that absconded and/or died out.
> Steven


Hi Steven I am interested in your negetive experinces going foundationless? I was seriously concidering this. been reading up some. Please tell me your experinces on why going foundationless was a mistake for you?


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## Michael Bush

I started out with DuraComb. When the bees misdrew it I blamed the plastic. I went to wax. When it melted and crumpled and when they drew it uneven, I blamed the wax. I tried putting drawn combs between undrawn combs and they drew out the drawn combs so they protruded so far into the space of the undrawn next to them that I couldn't get a single frame out of the hive. I went to plastic. When they built fins on it and combs between other combs I blamed the plastic. I went to foundationless. They sometimes make some of those mistakes, but the foundation never crumples, they never build fins out from the face, if I space them right they don't try to build a comb between two foundations. I think we often blame the foundation or lack of it when it's the timing, the genetics or the method that is at fault. Putting drawn combs between foundation in a honey super was not the right method. Putting foundation in when it was hot caused the buckling. Putting the plastic in where there wasn't a flow and/or spacing it wrong lead to issues with that.

Now I use a mixture of all of them with no serious issues, but some issues just come with working with creatures that can and do make decisions.

Don't you find it interesting how many people hate one or more of these methods and are sold on one or more other methods and yet people are fairly evenly divided on which one they hate and which one they love?


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## StevenG

:lpf: BeeG, Michael Bush nailed it perfectly! If I put foundationless between perfectly drawn comb during a honey flow, the bees drew it beautifully. If I put a box of foundationless frames on a hive, I generally had a mess. And I didn't like frames and frames of drone comb. I was expanding my colony numbers, and just didn't have enough drawn comb. 

FWIW, what I discovered was the best way to get the best foundationless comb was to insert foundationless frames between frames of perfectly drawn worker comb. It didn't matter if that perfectly drawn comb was on foundation or was itself foundationless. Since my initial experiences, I've used some foundationless, but like I've said, between drawn comb. As a creature of habit, I prefer foundation - fewer headaches or need for careful planning on my part. But I have a lot of time pressures, and tend to find things that are easy and quicker. When I retire, and have more time for the bees, might do some things differently.
Hope that makes sense.
Steven


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## heaflaw

Michael Bush said:


> Don't you find it interesting how many people hate one or more of these methods and are sold on one or more other methods and yet people are fairly evenly divided on which one they hate and which one they love?


Yes. People tend to make draw conclusions based on only limited knowledge and with that limited knowledge truly believe that they are correct and that others who have drawn different conclusions are wrong. They can stick to those conclusions all their lives without ever investigating what the truth really is. 

Of course we do this with politics, career decisions, love decisions, etc, too.

Maybe if we are truly honest, beekeeping can teach us humility of what we know of life.


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## sqkcrk

Er, religion. U left out religion. Must have been part of the "etc.", I guess.

We could call this laziness or expediency. Making up opur minds based on little knowledge or evidence. Who has the time?


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## StevenG

sqkcrk said:


> ... We could call this laziness or expediency. Making up opur minds based on little knowledge or evidence. Who has the time?


Good point Mark. But we all do it. We make up our minds based on what knowledge and/or experience/evidence we have. Perhaps the difference between wisdom and foolishness is that wisdom keeps an open mind to new knowledge/experience, thus modifying decisions/actions/activities, and foolishness does not.
Regards,
Steven


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## heaflaw

sqkcrk said:


> Er, religion. U left out religion. Must have been part of the "etc.", I guess.
> 
> Yes, definitely religion.
> 
> 
> We could call this laziness or expediency. Making up opur minds based on little knowledge or evidence. Who has the time?


And since we don't have the time, we should trust the expert's knowledge and understanding. But it is against our human nature, particularly in US culture, to trust what others say. We want to make up our own minds and not be told how to think.


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## StevenG

I think most of us have been burned by various "experts" in such a way that many of us, well, at least my approach is to trust, but verify. Another fly in the ointment, particularly when it comes to beekeeping, is that what works in one section of the country, just might not work in another section of the country. Thus a trustworthy expert in New England for instance, might be a complete failure in Texas, if he/she practiced New England beekeeping in Texas. Just a for instance. Of course, there are certain generic truths applicable to any locale, but...

Meanwhile, I'll read and trust people like the lamentably deceased Richard Taylor any day of the week. 
Regards,
Steven


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## heaflaw

Agreed StevenG. So many variables in beekeeping. And it really is part science and part art. And Richard Taylor like several of the more experienced guys on here seem to have a deep understanding of bee behavior that goes beyond facts.


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## Acebird

heaflaw said:


> We want to make up our own minds and not be told how to think.


What can I say.:thumbsup:


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## StevenG

Greetings all!
It has been a while, but I won't bore you with the details in my personal/family life this past fall. But it's past time for an update on my program.
FYI, the two colonies I restarted beekeeping with in the Spring of 2006, treatment free, are still going strong, and still treatment free.

In the Fall of 2010 I entered winter with 27 hives. I lost four over winter, entered 2011 with 23 live colonies.

Expansion goals: I hoped to hit 50 colonies this year. So, Spring 2011 I bought 20 B. Weaver and 2 Russian queens, for splits and requeening. Because of queen issues, during the summer I bought 3 more Weavers and 2 more Russians. I managed to get up to 44 colonies. However, due to absconding and queen issues I lost 10 colonies between June 1 and Aug. 1. One hive succumbed to the small hive beetle, but it obviously had other problems. I had entered the year with some comb messes related to ppm and foundationless frames. That cost me problems with colonies, but I managed to get all that mess cleaned up this summer.

I entered Fall 2011 with 34 live colonies, all heavy with stores. 

Honey: The crop this year was poor again. Clover in two fields I have bees on failed to bloom. I moved my trailer of 20 hives to soybeans again, and got a good crop there. From 22 producing colonies, I gained 681 pounds of honey. That is a 36.8 pound average. The breakdown is as follows: Weaver queens averaged 28.76 pounds each. Purvis mutts averaged 47 pounds each. The one productive Russian hive gave me all of 5 pounds... I really struggled with the Russians this year, and clover failed there as well.

I had 7 colonies produce over 50 pounds each: 2 led by Purvis mutts, 5 led by B. Weavers. The Purvis colonies averaged 60 pounds each, the Weavers averaged 58.3 pounds each. 

For those who like to pick nits, the only treatments I gave my bees were a couple of feedings of granulated cane sugar syrup, one with HBH. Also one feeding of Mega Bee. That's it.

For 2012 if my Russians don't do any better, I'll phase them out, replacing them with a different strain. I have four Russell Sunkist Queens on order. I have tried in the past Minnesota Hygenic, but they didn't work out, and I've replaced them with Weavers. 

I checked the four hives in the back yard today, bees flying and still very heavy with stores. In a week or two I'll do a serious check of all my hives, but right now, I'm leaving well enough alone.
Regards,
Steven


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## Acebird

Are you strictly buying queens as your mode of operation? What is your life span for the queens with treatment free?


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## StevenG

At this point, when I requeen a colony, I do so with a bought queen. When I expand via splits, I do a walk-away split, and let the bees raise their own queen. A queen called a Purvis or Weaver queen for example, is bought. A Purvis or Weaver Mutt is the result of a walk-away split, and not bought, thus not pure-mated, as I have no control over how they mate in my yards. 

I try to mark my queens so I know their age, but I'm not always successful. So every third year I try to replace the hive's queen, if the bees have not already done so. Thus my queens generally have 2 years of laying. 

My goal is to have at least two genetic lines, if not three, in each apiary. And I'm hoping in the next 2-4 years to begin raising my own by means other than walk-away. There are factors in my family life for the next two years that preclude me reaching that goal any faster.
Regards,
Steven


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## jajtiii

It would be interesting to know how well your walk away's do vs your purchased queens. It's too early to draw any conclusions, but it would still be interesting.


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## StevenG

Excellent question. Of my top 7 producers, 4 were splits with new B. Weaver queens. 1 was an older purebred Purvis. 2 were Weaver Mutts, walk away splits last year. The other 15 producers were 8 new B. Weaver queens this year (either splits, or requeened) and 7 mutts, all walk-away splits last year. 

This year, with no money for new queens (and no real need because of requeening and new queens last year), I plan to do mainly walk-away splits. 
Regards,
Steven


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## StevenG

WOO HOO!!!! I'm a _*very*_ happy camper!! :banana: 
Just checked the colonies for the first time this year. First the caveat...in post 98 I indicated I entered Fall/winter 2011 with 34 live colonies - was actually only 32. 4 at home, 21 in one out-apiary, and my 7 Russians in another out-apiary. I lost only 2 this winter! That is a paltry 6 per cent loss. Of the remaining 30, I have to feed 5, as they feel very light. All the others are very heavy with stores still, and all bees are bringing in pollen. So, we'll see what this year brings. May you all have such good fortune!
and this is treatment free, on large-cell foundation or foundationless. 
Regards,
Steven


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## beyondthesidewalks

Great news! I do hope that my fortunes are as good as yours but will not count on it yet. Old man winter may still have a trick or two up his sleeve. So far, it is looking very good for me as well.


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## Solomon Parker

Great job. Look forward to hearing more.


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## StevenG

I wish I could take all the credit, but the reality is, the success is more than likely due to the genetics and quality of the bees.
Regards,
Steven


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## Solomon Parker

What advice would you give to newbees wanting to do what you're doing?


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## StevenG

I've been giving it in most of my posts, Sol! 
1. Buy your bees/queens from a breeder who does not treat. Period. No kind of treatment for mites, not even soft.
2. Do not treat. No matter what anyone says, IF you've done #1. You don't even have to do mite counts, IF you've done #1. And perhaps this is my greatest heresy - I've never done a mite count. Never plan to. :lookout: I figure my colonies have mites, but the bees know what to do. After all, I've bought "survivors".
3. Don't try anything fancy the first year or two...go with the basics, Langstroth equipment, basic management skills. Learn to keep your bees alive. Master the basics. You can pick up an old bee book cheap, read it and master it. In the second or third year you can begin to play around, if you wish. Too many forget it is the basics that do more than anything else to help a colony thrive. 
4. Realize you are going to lose hives. So what? Everyone does. Get over it, do a post mortem on the dead hive, learn from it, start over.
5. As soon as you feel comfortable, go without gloves. That will lessen your fear of the bees, make your movements more deliberate, and make you more confident. Yes, you're going to get stung. So what? They're honeybees for heaven's sake. (if for some reason your health mitigates against this, ignore this point.)

Sol, rightly or wrongly, I think most newbies latch onto the latest fad in beekeeping, when more losses are caused by mismanagement and simply failing to master the basics. As most of us who have been around a bit know, there is no magic bullet. Beekeeping is hard work today. But man alive, it sure is fun and rewarding!

More than anything else, I attribute my success to the genetics of my bees, and the various sources from which I've acquired them.

By the way, I got my first arthritis treatment of the year yesterday. Even let the stinger pump all the venom into my left hand...I guess I'm becoming masochistic...oh...wait! Beekeepers are by nature masochistic! :lpf:
Regards,
Steven


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## Solomon Parker

There's always new newbees. Some things bear repeating, concisely and directly.

I also got my first stings of the year this past week. Not nearly as painful as the first of the season usually are. :thumbsup:


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## Acebird

I think my bees do all the hard work and I appreciate them not stinging me when I steal the fruits of their labor.
Don't you feel not treating reduces most of the work a beekeeper has to do?


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## sqkcrk

Some, by no means most.


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## StevenG

By not treating, I don't spend time on acquiring and installing chemicals. Nor do I spend time on mite counts, or anything else related to treating or mites. Having never done those things, I don't know how much time I've saved, but know I have saved some. From the pros here, I've learned how to inspect a hive by watching the entrance. Minimizes the number of times I have to open the colony. Experience also teaches the time of the year I must get into the hive. 

And of course there are those times when I simply need my fix, and go thru a colony. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Acebird

StevenG said:


> From the pros here, I've learned how to inspect a hive by watching the entrance. Minimizes the number of times I have to open the colony.


Any harm in giving us their names, member names if they are anonymous?


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## LetMBee

StevenG said:


> I wish I could take all the credit, but the reality is, the success is more than likely due to the genetics and quality of the bees.
> Regards,
> Steven


StevenG -- Without your management practices the genetic potential of your bees would never be realized. They are just living and dying like they have always done. Bees have been dealing with them longer than we have been keeping bees. New challenges always come along. Give yourself credit for giving them all they really need, a place to live, and decreasing their stress by only getting into the hive when needed. :thumbsup:


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## Intheswamp

StevenG said:


> <snip>
> By the way, I got my first arthritis treatment of the year yesterday. Even let the stinger pump all the venom into my left hand...I guess I'm becoming masochistic...oh...wait! Beekeepers are by nature masochistic! :lpf:
> Regards,
> Steven


I hope I didn't quote too much...

I'm not sure if he's right or wrong but I think it was Roger Moore that stated that the stinger dumps basically all of it's venom at the time of the sting and that the pumping action seen is not actually pumping venom but is the barbed stinger digging deeper to give the venom a deeper entryway.


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## Acebird

Mechanically that doesn't seem possible.


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## Intheswamp

You're probably right, bird. Morse is the only person I've heard mention that. Here is a link to what Dave Cushman presented on his website regarding the sting/stinger...nice drawings and info...

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/stingstructure.html

Well, now I'm beginning to wonder if it was Morse that may the statement above...I'll have to keep digging to find that one....or else I dreamed it up!


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## StevenG

From what I've read, the pumping action continues to shove the barbed stinger deeper, at the same time it pumps venom into the "victim." 

But the reality is, it takes a certain amount of foolishness :lpf: to stand there and watch the venom sac do it's work. I didn't have my reading glasses on, so didn't get a good view of what was going on, but the stinger sac seemed to change from beginning to end of the pumping cycle. Seemed to whiten up and flatten out towards the end, before I scraped it off. 
Regards,
Steven


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## StevenG

Acebird said:


> Any harm in giving us their names, member names if they are anonymous?


Ace, the harm would be in embarrassing myself by leaving someone out....there's about a dozen I trust and read their posts regularly. I will mention five by name, and tell why, with apologies to the rest (in alphabetical order):

Crazy Roland - met him this past summer, neat guy, 5th (I think) generation beekeeper. Went out of his way to drop by and talk bees. 

Grant - doesn't post much, lives 90 miles from me, met him, bought his e-book. Makes a lot of sense, always enjoy him.

Mike Bush - don't need to say much about Mike and his value to our craft. To those who haven't checked out and read his web site, do so.

Sqkcrk (Mark) - Another beekeeper whose work mentors newbies with solid guidance and counsel.

Ted Kretschmann - a couple of years ago Ted and I got into a discussion here on the forum about commercial beekeepers going treatment free. We have a steak dinner riding on a bet. I said it would happen in 10 years, he said it would take longer. When I retire and have time to drive down to see Ted, I'm going to collect that steak, or have a good time paying off on the wager.

I really regret not having time or space to list all the others. But for the newcomers to our craft, get and read anything by Richard Taylor, also the two "Bibles" - ABC's of Beekeeping, and The Hive and the Honey Bee. And subscribe to at least one of the magazines. 

Again, there are others, (ah, like Walt Wright!) but my mind has gone blank this morning... 
Regards,
Steven


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Mechanically that doesn't seem possible.


What doesn't seem possible?


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> What doesn't seem possible?


Once the stinger entrails have left the bee there is nothing to push against as a reactive force. I thought...

After studying the diagram that Intheswamp linked to there may be a possibility it could happen. I didn't realize that the bee's stinger was two split barbs. If the pumping action results in a see saw action of those barb stingers they could walk their way in deeper, one pushing against the other. That would be one clever sting mechanism.


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## sqkcrk

It is a rather clever stinging mechanism. Actually it is made up of two lancets, which are barbed, and a muscular sting sac which keeps pumping, as does a heart taken out of the body of a live frog.

There is more in this world than in your imagination. To present a poor paraphrase of something William Shakespeare wrote.


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## Michael Bush

>That would be one clever sting mechanism. 

It is. With two barbed halves one half can hold while the other drives in further and the the other half holds while the first drives in further. Thus, even though the stinger is no longer attached to the bee, it continues, not only to pump in venom, but to drive in further as well, just as Mark described.

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Sting1.JPG


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## Acebird

It just baffles me that something of this complexity and ingenuity could develop in nature for an insect. I can't get my head around it.


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## Michael Bush

>It just baffles me that something of this complexity and ingenuity could develop in nature for an insect. I can't get my head around it. 

That's why a lot of us believe there is a creator... hard to fathom the complexity of a stinger let alone the behavior of building comb, or adjusting the input of pollen or even flight without a master designer. The complexity of one cell boggles the mind and now you put those together to make a bee and put those together to make a colony...

Or maybe it's all just a freak accident...


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## Intheswamp

Michael Bush said:


> > <snip>
> 
> That's why a lot of us believe there is a creator... <snip>
> 
> Or maybe it's all just a freak accident...


I hear you, Mike. I personally don't believe in luck or coincidences. You're right, there are many, many more incredible things about honey bees other than the stinger...the bee dances, the workers knowing what their jobs are from day one and onward, the virgin queens knowing where the DCAs are located, the ability of the house bees to communicate to the foragers what is needed in the "house", etc., etc.,. Some incredible details, but so subtle.

Ed


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## sqkcrk

Intheswamp said:


> the virgin queens knowing where the DCAs are located,
> Ed


Just gotta say, they don't know where they are so much as they find them, in case you thought otherwise. Maybe somewhat less amazing, but still intriuging.


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## jmgi

sqkcrk said:


> Just gotta say, they don't know where they are so much as they find them, in case you thought otherwise. Maybe somewhat less amazing, but still intriuging.




I still consider it amazing, actually the honey bee just boggles my mind. John


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## sqkcrk

Ditto


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## Intheswamp

That is intriguing, Mark. Thanks for clarifying it for me. The fact that the virgin has the option of heading out in any cardinal direction or point between and being able to find a dca is truly amazing. The exertion that she uses to propel her long body, dodging birds and dragonflies and the like come in to play...it's amazing that so many make it. I've heard it said that the virgin mates on multiple days...after the first day do you think she knows where to go looking?

Ed


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## sqkcrk

I imagine she does in a way. Similarily to how she knows how to get home. Bees have a sense of smell which comes in handy. I bet that has something to do w/ it.

"How do queens find DCAs?" would be a nice thing to know.


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## Intheswamp

Well, Mark, do we even know how the drones themselves find the DCAs? It's not like there's a map tacked to the hive wall from the last years drones showing them how to get to the cemetery or ridgeline or woodline or whatever...but they return to the same area year after year from what I've read. There's some questions that I believe will never be answered by man.


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## sqkcrk

No, I don't. But I have a book. 

Under "Drone congregation area" it says, "The fact that drones and virgin queensfly to specific areas, now called drone congregation areas for mating, was discovered by Zmarlicki(Zmarlicki, C. and R.A. Morse (1963)"Drone congregation areas, in Journal of Apicultural Research 2: 64-66) Drone congregation areas have been found in nearly all parts of the world where Apis mellifera is established. DESPITE MUCH RESEARCH, WE STILL DO NOT KNOW HOW THEY ARE FORMED OR WHAT ATTRACTS QUEENS AND DRONES TO THEM. Where mating takes place in other Apis species is unknown.
"Our best theory at the present time is that an anomaly in the earth's crust is responsible for making certain areas attractive. We have been frustrated in our search for their origin because of our inability to learn how they are found by the insect. IT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED BY VARIOUS PEOPLE THAT ODOUR AND VISUAL AND MAGNETIC CUES ARE OF GREATEST IMPORTANCE IN BEES FINDING AREAS, BUT NO ONE OF THESE SUGGESTIONS HAS BEEN SUBSTANTIATED BY DATA. "

Caps used to highlight pertinent parts to reply to what we were discussing.

There certainly will always be unanswered questions to ponder and investigate. Let's not give up on that search.


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## StevenG

For those following my report on treatment-free beekeeping, as previously reported this year (2012) I lost 2 of 32 hives overwinter (6%). Today I was able to check the remaining 30. Of those, 2 are somewhat weak but rebuilding, the rest are doing great! I have a couple of gang-busters going strong, the usual suspects. I supered all hives with one, either shallow or medium super. The hives in full sun had nearly no hive beetles in the beetle jails. The four hives in partial shade had a couple dozen dead beetles in the traps. I cleaned and refilled all traps. In one of the hives in partial shade I was able to execute 7 beetles...very satisfying.

Because of some changes occuring in my life and family situation, unfortunately I will not be able to manage the hives this year as I would like. Do not have the time to do swarm prevention, thus I've just supered. Will check as I can, and will report periodically how things are going.

Just to remind any new folks to this thread, since inception, I have done NO mite treatments, and have done NO mite counts. I have tried Russians, Purvis queens, MnHyg queens/bees, and B. Weaver packages and queens. I do walk-away splits. I messed up big time when I tried to go foundationless a couple years ago, took two years to straighten out that mess. Not the bees fault, mine. I started with two packages, have built up to 30 this point. Plan to get to 50, but that will take a couple more years, as I have to stabilize now at this plateau.

Feel free to ask me any question here, or pm me. Personally I like to keep the discussion on these pages, as I believe it helps us all learn. My open-mated walk-away splits are doing as well as my store-bought queens. So the genetics appear to transfer acceptably well, at least here in SE Missouri.
Regards to all, and may you have your best year yet!
Steven


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## LetMBee

Are you doing anything else to control the beetles besides those traps? Ground drenching etc..... Up to this point I have provided no treatment except sugar dusting, which I stopped because it seemed more cruel than just letting them sort things out with the mites. 

I saw SHB's in one of my out-yards about 15 miles from most of my hives. I would like to keep them isolated, but I don't know if that will be possible since beetles can fly. any advise?

Also what are you loading the traps with?


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## StevenG

LetMBee, you can't keep them isolated, because, as you mentioned, the beetle can fly. I use plain mineral oil. Depending on the size of the hive, and how much of a problem the beetles seem to be, I'll have from 2 to 5 traps in a colony, with a max of two traps per box. I do not use Gardstar.

From what I've read, except for in the south, if you need or use Gardstar or some form of ground drench, it's too late for your hives. As I understand it, the beetles simply must be taken care of in the hive, before they get to the point they head to ground. But like I said, in the south, it is vastly different.
Regards,
Steven


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## DRUR

I had 16 last summer. We had a bad drought here in Texas and I lost 2 to???, so I had 14 going into the winter. And we didn't have much winter to speak of this year. The middle of January thru the end of January, weather and time permitting, I went through all 14 colonies. Each had eggs, grubs, and sealed brood except 1, which had ample population but no evidence of a queen. I dropped a frame of eggs from my favorite colony and a week later had several queen cells. At the time I checked and they had queen cells, I dropped 2 frames of sealed brood [mediums] from two different colonies to keep their population up before winter die offs. A couple of weeks later I had a queen laying good patterns.

I have since recovered a swarm in mid flight, and split that colony and 2 others fixing to swarm to a total of 17. All are doing good.

I do not treat with anything except screened bottom boards [on all but 3 which have solid bottoms], and will be converting about 1/2 of my apiary this year to solid bottoms because these are doing better than the rest. If this proves out then I will be going to all solid bottoms.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


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## StevenG

Thanks for the post, Danny. I run screened bottom boards on all my hives. I think I'll follow your example and try some solid boards on a few hives and see if that makes a difference on wintering. Though our winter was quite mild this year. 
Regards,
Steven


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## DRUR

Forgot to mention in my first post, that I am on small cell using the mannlaked medium plastic frames. I am having a lot of ears breaking off the plastic frames so I will be going to wooden frames with starter strips. Still considering how I will do that.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


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## StevenG

UPDATE!
Worked the bees today. Of my 30 hives, I lost one...it had been weak, and post mortem indicated queen failure. There was brood three weeks ago. Found some emergency queen cells along the top bars where the cluster had been. My guess is the queen failed, colony dwindled, cold snap finished them off. Very few bees in the hive. Plus a vacant mouse nest in the bottom deep box.

The remaining 29 colonies are all over the board, as usual. Some booming, a couple struggling. There's a chance I'll lose one of my Russian colonies, I'm watching it. Another queen issue. 

I did hive a swarm last Saturday, and it's going gangbusters now. So I'm still at 30 colonies now, with the swarm and with the dead-out. Foir those reading my blog linked in the first posting here, the colony that died was #15.

Of my three apiaries, I'm having small hive beetle problems in my home apiary. Killed 17 beetles in two colonies. Didn't see any in the other two colonies at home. I keep the traps filled with mineral oil. Bees seem to be doing a good job. These colonies are in partial shade...unfortunately I don't have any place else to keep them here. 
Regards,
Steven


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## DRUR

Michael Bush said:


> Or maybe it's all just a freak accident...


*WOW, now believing that would take a lot of faith.* 

I remember walking in the woods on a small island just west of Kodiak Island Alaska, about 1983. I came upon what looked to be a cabin built and well hidden in the forest, but no one was there. I shared this with my cousin who at the time lived on Kodiak and told him that some hermit had built a cabin in the woods. He said nah, that would be illegal, he was sure a storm came through and just arranged things like that. I laughed at himand he said, oh yee of little faith.

Funny how things will bring back fond memories.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


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## Aerindel

That is an awesome little story. It has to be one the most succinct ways of explaining something that i have believed my whole life.


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## Michael Bush

>I laughed at himand he said, oh yee of little faith.

And a cabin is so much simpler than a bee...


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## Vance G

Mr. Bush that is a wonderful observation. But the pearls are often cast before the----- unappreciative.


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## StevenG

UPDATE!!!!
It has been an interesting time since my last report... I'm struggling with some colonies, due to PPM and queen issues... having to deal with home repairs is keeping all my spare time away from the bees. 

In preparation to move my trailer with 19 hives on it to soybeans, I pulled supers this weekend, and extracted 352 pounds of honey! That was WONDERFUL, since last year I got nothing from that particular location. The honey should all have been clover, but it turned out to be a mixture of clover and wildflower. In a couple of days, I'll have the hives ratchet strapped together, all the hives affixed to the trailer, and have them moved to soybeans, and new supers installed. At that time I'll go thru them, and deal with any problems I find. I'm anticipating problems with 3 colonies. oh well, life goes on.

By the way, one of the colonies, led by a year old B. Weaver queen, produced 95 pounds of honey. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Solomon Parker

Nice. Keep up the good work. The weather was real cooperative this year.


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## StevenG

Ok sports fans, the harvest is over for me, and it was GREAT!!!!
To update, I do not treat in any way, shape, or form for mites. Do not even do mite counts. Have not done prophylactic treatments for nosema in 5 years. 

My total honey production this year from 23 colonies which produced honey was 1,539 pounds. That is 66.91 pound average, in SE Missouri. I had 5 non-productive colonies, so if you factor those into the average, the average drops to 54.96 pounds.

Production by queen:
- Feral swarm hived in April - 26 pounds
- B. Weaver queens - including Mutts (11 hives) - 998 pounds, 90.72 lb. average
- Purvis queens/mutts (5 hives) - 306 pounds, 61.2 lb. average
- Russell queens (installed May 11 in splits) (3 hives) - 81 pounds, 28 lb. average (I found it interesting the feral swarm hives on foundation did as good as Russell queens given to single deep splits with existing brood, bees, and stores.)
- Russian queens/mutts (7 hives) - 111 pounds, 15.8 lb. average.

To get an honest comparison between Weaver queens and the Russian queens, part of the season I had 7 Weaver hives in a locale similar to the Russians. Those 7 Weaver hives produced 298 pounds, for an average of 42.57 pounds per hive, nearly 3 times the production of the Russians.

The conclusion for me is to switch from Russians over to B. Weaver queens, and throw in another line for genetic diversity. 
Had I practiced better beekeeping this year (time and family constraints dictated otherwise this year) I would not have lost some hives over the summer, and my 5 non-productive hives might have been able to produce. But then again, maybe not.
Now to get them ready for winter.

For me, what this proves is that with the right genetics, you can be treatment free, and produce a nice quantity of honey. My two oldest colonies are 6 years old, in the back yard, and produced 79 pounds for one, nada for the other (queen laid throughout supers, had to leave). The second oldest hive is 4 years old, and this year it produced (I _*LOVE*_ this queen!) 170 pounds! I had six hives produce over 100 pounds each, 1-170 pounds, another 175 pounds. I had four other hives produce between 75 and 100 pounds. And that, my friends, is treatment free, in SE Missouri. Not in fields of clover or alfalfa. I did have some hives on soybeans though. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Solomon Parker

That's fantastic! Good show!


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## odfrank

I would say we can't measure the success of treatment free on honey production alone but also first measure how many survive the coming winter. Like mine, many of your hives were this years starts. I am treatment free also, produce approximately 2.5 tons of honey, but suffer massive winter losses by so far undiagnosed causes. So I rate myself and my bees a failure as a treatment free beekeeper. Remember President Bush on the aircraft carrier? "Mission Accomplished". Report back in April. And five years from now.


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## sqkcrk

Yes, but good report and thanks for reporting. Is anyone else replicating the study?


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## StevenG

Mark (sqkcrk) as I mentioned in my blog a few years back, this is not a controlled study, but simply a report on my experiences endeavoring to be treatment free. A scientist would be driven to drink if dealing with this report as a scientific study. 

Odfrank - Actually my reported data goes back to 2006. See my blog http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/
What I've been doing recently is giving updates here on this thread, so folks won't have to slog thru all the data in a blog to get the conclusions. 
Regarding my winter losses...Started 2009 with 2 colonies, ended with 14.
winter 2009/2010, entered with 14 colonies, lost 1, a 7% loss.
Ended 2010 with 26 colonies, lost 4 winter 2010/2011, a 15% loss.
Ended 2011 with 32 colonies, lost 2 winter 2011/2012, a 6% loss. 
My best producers were 2 years old or older, and a 4-yr. old colony produced 170 pounds, rather unusual in this part of the state.

Like you, I try to judge the success of the bee/colony by survival AND production. Some folks say treatment free bees won't produce. Mine have, thanks to their genetics, and environmental factors as well, I'm sure (e.g. forage, weather, etc.)

I don't plan to go commercial, just be a successful side-liner with up to 50-60 colonies, give me some travel money in my old age. :lpf:
Kindest Regards,
Steven


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## Myron Denny

Have you used Buckfast Queens in the past?

Do you see any noticable aggressive difference between the colonies you have?

Do you actually use purchased queens to make your splits?

How many frames with bees and brood do you use to make a split?

Do you reuse the frames and foundation from your colony's that have died?

Do you use any kind of sanitation on the frames and foundation after a colony dies?

Myron Denny
Glencoe Okla


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## StevenG

Hello Myron - did you get much alfalfa honey this year? When I lived in Oklahoma, I loved getting alfalfa honey! Anyway....
Buckfast queens, haven't used them, sorry.

Aggressiveness - Russians are consistently my most aggressive. But depending on time of year, weather, etc etc and honey flows, hives are pretty mild...never wear gloves. I get most of my stings in the spring, before the serious honey flows start. I'll take 3-4 stings from one hive before I'll put on my gloves. That usually happens every other year. I've had a "junk yard dog" hive twice - 30 years ago, and about 3 years ago...requeened 3 years ago. Endured it 30 years ago...produced bumper crops.

Queens for splits - I generally use walk away splits, but also buy queens to introduce genetic diversity into my operation, and try different strains.

Frames for splits - I use 4 frame nucs generally, so I pull 2 frames of brood and bees, 2 frames of bees and honey/pollen. Sometimes I'll use a frame of empty comb or foundation, depending upon my mood and comb availability. 

Reusing frames - yes, I generally reuse my frames/comb. I do a post mortem on any dead out. Most to date have been queen issues or starvation, so I've felt comfortable reusing those, with no problem. When I get this summer's deadouts in and autopsied, my guess is, thanks to the wax moth, won't be any comb to use. Now, if I think a hive died out for other reasons, e.g. foulbrood, I'll burn.

Sanitation - to date I've let the bees clean them up. That is subject to change, if my post mortems indicate other problems. I'm also planning to follow a colony hived in previously used dead-out equipment, to see if there is mortality there. So far there hasn't been. So my practices are subject to change. I figure bees can do a good job, but with all the new stuff out there, I need to be willing and able to adjust.

Now, to turn the question around, do you use any kind of sanitation on deadouts you plan to reuse? And what kind? 

Thanks for your questions! That's how we all learn, and I'm open to suggestions.
Kindest regards,
Steven


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## Lburou

*Celebrating your Home Run this year Steven!*



StevenG said:


> Ok sports fans, the harvest is over for me, and it was GREAT!!!!
> ...snip...For me, what this proves is that with the right genetics, you can be treatment free, and produce a nice quantity of honey....snip....The second oldest hive is 4 years old, and this year it produced (I _*LOVE*_ this queen!) 170 pounds!...snip...
> Regards,
> Steven


Normally, I wouldn't want to see a 170 pound queen, but not true this time: I think I'm in love too 

I ordered some BeeWeaver queens today for splits, please Steven, tell me your four year old, 170 pound, queen is a BeeWeaver queen!


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## StevenG

*Re: Celebrating your Home Run this year Steven!*

I'm sorry Lee, but she isn't a four year old B. Weaver queen... she was installed April 9, 2011, but is a B. Weaver queen. She took off slow last year, colony struggled, as did most of mine last year. But wow! This year was great for her!
Regards,
Steven


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## Acebird

*Re: Celebrating your Home Run this year Steven!*

Isn't that normal for a hive to start slow and go gangbusters the second year? I did some crazy splits this year and I am both anxious and apprehensive at the same time to see what these hives will do next year (assuming they make it).


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## StevenG

*Re: Celebrating your Home Run this year Steven!*

It is normal for a colony to start slow as it gets established the first year, and go gangbusters the second year. But this hive was in its third year when I requeened with a B. Weaver queen. Had last year been a better year all around, it should have done much better last year than it did. It only produced 7 pounds of surplus last year. But all my colonies were down last year, so I decided to see what she would do in her second year. And, rightly or wrongly, I always assume my hives will make it thru the winter. My good fortune has been if I can get a new hive, split, swarm or whatever, thru the season to fall and ready for winter, they make it thru winter. Last three years my winter losses have been 7%, 15%, and this past winter 6%. I think it's because I get quality bees, and get them built up for winter.
Regards,
Steven


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## Myron Denny

*Re: Celebrating your Home Run this year Steven!*

I have many old boxes and used frames I have cleaned the old wax out and washed them in a heavy solution Clorox and water, I let them dry and filled them with new wax. I lost enough bees that I am now using new frames and new wax. This year I had a Nuc that after 2 purchased queens failed I let them raise their own queen, they got strong enough I put them in a 10 frame box with the 5 filled frames they had and 5 frames from a deadout that had not been washed in Clorox, they died. The old frames and foundation I think were the cause!

The bees made honey early here, they have done very little from June on here because of the heat the last 2 summers. All my bees have alfalfa in their area, one field was left for seed which is being thrashed now. The bees that had Arrowleaf clover close by seemed to make the most honey. I never see bees on the beans in our area. 
I have a neighbor that bought packages from Weavers, they were in new equipment but they all died the second summer? Weavers used to sell Buckfast queens.


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## StevenG

*Re: Celebrating your Home Run this year Steven!*

Soybeans in my area are generally irrigated, and I've gotten real good crops off them. 
Which Weaver did your neighbor get bees from? R. Weaver or B. Weaver? I've only used B. Weaver. When I've lost some, it's generally been my fault.
Regards,
Steven


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## squarepeg

*Re: Celebrating your Home Run this year Steven!*

test


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## squarepeg

*Re: Celebrating your Home Run this year Steven!*

steven, thanks for pointing me to your sticky thread.

i did not realize that there is regular activity on it, good stuff too.

i wonder, do you follow the 'treatment free beekeeping forum'? i quickly scanned through a few threads there, and did not see any posts by you.


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## StevenG

*Re: Celebrating your Home Run this year Steven!*

Hi Squarepeg...
I followed and participated in the Treatment Free Beekeeping Forum section for several months after it started. But I got tired of all the nit-picking and arguing about what was and was not a treatment, and saying the same thing over and over again about getting quality bees from the get-go. So I don't check that section much, nor add to it. 
Regards,
Steven


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## squarepeg

*Re: Celebrating your Home Run this year Steven!*



StevenG said:


> Hi Squarepeg...
> I followed and participated in the Treatment Free Beekeeping Forum section for several months after it started. But I got tired of all the nit-picking and arguing about what was and was not a treatment, and saying the same thing over and over again about getting quality bees from the get-go. So I don't check that section much, nor add to it.
> Regards,
> Steven


totally understandable steven.


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## oparea

*Re: Celebrating your Home Run this year Steven!*

Just checking in, 2 hives treatment free for 7 years and counting now. MN Hygienic


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