# When to fuss about a walk away split



## jlsheehan (Jul 26, 2012)

Hi, first time bee hive-splitter, so maybe overly neurotic about this. But I did a walk away split on March 9th (25 days ago). By 3/16, there were already capped queen cells in the hive (fast!), by 3/24, at one of these queen cells was ripped open. Not wanting to disturb the hive much, I just left well enough alone until today. Opened hive, old queen cells are mostly gone, but couldn't find the queen -- maybe just too impatient. In any case, no sign of eggs or young brood, so there's clearly no laying queen in there anyway. When should I start fussing about this, either adding another frame of eggs from my other hive, or ordering a new queen? How long from split until I should be seeing eggs? Thanks!


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

You are a little early to worry. Some would say you are a little early to check. Visit Michael Bush and review queens and splits. I do.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

jlsheehan said:


> Hi, first time bee hive-splitter, so maybe overly neurotic about this. But I did a walk away split on March 9th (25 days ago). By 3/16, there were already capped queen cells in the hive (fast!), by 3/24, at one of these queen cells was ripped open. Not wanting to disturb the hive much, I just left well enough alone until today. Opened hive, old queen cells are mostly gone, but couldn't find the queen -- maybe just too impatient. In any case, no sign of eggs or young brood, so there's clearly no laying queen in there anyway. When should I start fussing about this, either adding another frame of eggs from my other hive, or ordering a new queen? How long from split until I should be seeing eggs? Thanks!


Late already. You need to get them a new frame of brood and eggs, or a laying queen. What happened was they drew out queen cells, but for whatever reason they didn't take, so they tore them down. if I don't have good capped queen cells in 14 days I have a problem....


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

A walk away split if I understand does not matter where the queen is at so don't even look for the queen bee. 
According to the queen rearing calendar you should see some eggs by next week on the 8th. But if this queen is lazy or not ready for a mating flight because she emerged later then you have to wait a bit longer. If you do not see the queen after she emerged then look for her. But it is hard to find her if you have too many bees in the hive. If she is in there then adding another frame of eggs will not help. They will not make more queens for this hive. They got one already. You can order a queen bee but if they are in there then they will kill each others until one survive. I'm worry though if one is injured while the other is dead. Either way, it is better for you to confirm that you have a queen inside to make the right decision.
If this queen emerge late then you have to wait another week to see. Also, if your area not have drones flying then she cannot get mated. That will delay some more of egg laying. I did a notch the same time you did. So far 1 out of 4 did not get mated because she hatched out one week later. By next week she should lay some eggs. But so far she still waiting inside her hive. And not want to do a mating flight. But she is 5 days ahead of herself anyways. So I will give her another week or 2 to see. Some keepers here said they waited almost 3 weeks after they emerged
to see some eggs. If you can confirmed that she is in there then give her some more time. Hopefully, my last queen will get mated as well.


----------



## jlsheehan (Jul 26, 2012)

well, judging by my other hive, there are drones aplenty. But sounds like I should keep calm for a little while longer and keep my eye out for eggs/larvae. Thanks all of you!


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I always wait 30 days from doing the split before taking action.


----------



## Tom B (May 11, 2011)

I have had very good success with walk-away splits, but have also learned that the bees will do things on their own schedule and not necessarily follow the book (maybe they are poor readers, maybe they are just rebellious). It is ok to add a frame or two of brood from another hive at any time to supplement numbers, if still no brood after 30 days, time to buy a queen.


----------



## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

jlsheehan said:


> well, judging by my other hive, there are drones aplenty. But sounds like I should keep calm for a little while longer and keep my eye out for eggs/larvae. Thanks all of you!


Well, I did a cutout on a colony that I didn't find the queen on the same day (March 9). There was only a little bit of brood, but when I checked it on March 18 there were sealed queen cells. I am going in this Saturday to see if I can see eggs, brood, or a mated queen. 

I think the absolute latest they could have started a queen would have been on March 15 (March 9 + 3 days as egg + 3 day as larva). 10 more days for the queen larva to mature puts her emerging at the latest around March 25. It takes a week or so for the queen to harden off, make her mating flights, and start laying. Her mating flights also are dependent on weather which could delay her a few days.

I think that your're right in waiting.

Ed


----------



## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

If you have it available there is NO harm in putting a frame of eggs in there. If they have or soon to have a laying queen you have just given them a boost, if the original queen didn't take you have given them the resources to make a queen with. WIN WIN


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Yes - When in doubt give them brood - it always helps and never hurts.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I may have misread, I assumed you had looked for the new queen and found nothing?


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Confession; When I look for a queen and do not find one it usually just means I did not find her, it does not mean there is not one. Here she may well have been flying. A frame of brood would prove or disprove a queen.


----------



## jlsheehan (Jul 26, 2012)

Yes, well, this was my theory as well -- being a newbie, I'm often hard pressed to find the queen, and there are a fair number of bees in this split. So I decided just to look for brood... If I do add a new frame of eggs/brood to this hive, by the way, do I need to knock the other hive's nurse bees off of it? or can I just drop the whole frame, bees and brood, into my baby hive? Thanks again for patient advice.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

No need to, but the nuc is fairly full already? I usually shake off enough to make it easy to know the queen is not on.


----------



## jlsheehan (Jul 26, 2012)

Tada! Today there are eggs... whew. I think I made it. Thanks for all the advice.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Did you see the queen too? She should be on the egg frame or on the 2 adjacent frames.
What color is the queen bee?


----------



## jlsheehan (Jul 26, 2012)

No, I was trying to get in and out quick -- it was cold and windy, and the bees were cranky... but I'll give it a longer look when we get some warmer weather here.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

On Weds supposed to be in the lower 80s. Warm and sunny all week long after today. 
I think spring is finally here, I hope. Keep us updated.


----------



## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

jlsheehan

Hooray for your success!

I suggest less fiddling and let them do their thing. I experience better results with less and greater losses with more.

As far as the books, my girls don't read them at all.


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Good Job


----------



## jlsheehan (Jul 26, 2012)

Rats, I spoke too soon... turns out that it wasn't a queen laying eggs, but a worker. Obvious today, with multiple eggs in the cells, and all drones being raised. Never dealt with this before, so am leaning toward recombining with my strong hive -- newspaper between the brood box and the queenless box?


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

If laying workers started just shake them out & remove the hive. Many of the bees will join other hives


----------



## jlsheehan (Jul 26, 2012)

I just looked at Michael Bush's recommendations (http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm) and thought I might try stealing frames with eggs/larvae from my other hive and giving them to the queen-wrong one -- he suggests doing this once a week for 2-3 weeks. This might also work to prevent swarming in my giant hive? Ever tried it?


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I did one that way last year, although I did it late in the season & the queen didn't get well mated.
If you have the patience, & the hive can afford the bees that will die over time, it works.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When in doubt a frame of eggs is always good insurance.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm

> I did a walk away split on March 9th (25 days ago). By 3/16, there were already capped queen cells in the hive (fast!), by 3/24, at one of these queen cells was ripped open.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm

If you do the math, you did the split on the 9th of March. They will start with a 4 day old (from when it was laid) larva. 12 days later (16 days total from when it was laid) she will emerge, which would have been the 25th of March. Two weeks later she would probably be laying, which would be the 8th of April, but it could take as long as the 15th of April. If you have no eggs by the 15th then she will be a drone layer. Sometimes eggs are very hard to find. You'll have open brood then by the 19th and capped brood for sure by the 24th of April at the latest. Those are both much easier to spot.


----------



## jlsheehan (Jul 26, 2012)

I checked again this weekend and I definitely have laying workers. The only capped worker brood is on the frame of eggs that I dropped in last Saturday. In a last ditch effort to save the hive, though, I added another frame of eggs yesterday, hoping that they start raising a queen. If nothing by next Sunday, though, I'm thinking that I'll shake out the hive and call my first try at a split an (educational) failure. Seem reasonable?


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Does to me. A frame for 3 weeks to try and save the hive is the same investment as three frames at once to start over. I would not say a failure, it happens.


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Since you've already gone this far go ahead & add the third frame, third or fourth week is when they usually start a queen cell. Its up to you, but you're already 1/2 way through the proses.
Some splits don't work, just like some hives end up queenless after a swarm.


----------



## jlsheehan (Jul 26, 2012)

Hm, yes, patience is not really my strong suit, I'm afraid. Maybe this is good practice. So as I understand it, I'd add one more frame this weekend, and then see whether they succeed in starting a queen over the course of the next week.


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

You would know if they build the queen cell, it should be obvious in a couple days. Then it would be about 30 days from adding the frame until the new queen is laying.

I like to put a piece of blue painters tape on my hive & write notes with dates on it. It helps when experimenting.


----------

