# I'm done with Top Bar Hives...



## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

and after two years I'm selling what I have, moving my colonies into Langs, and using the proceeds to pay for the purchase of the equipment. Might keep a couple for comparison but the fit is just not right for me.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=618388#post618388


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Why are you no longer using topbar hives?


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## Zonker (Mar 10, 2010)

I may also be done with TBH's. I like the advantages (simpler, cheaper, clean more natural hive, no heavy boxes, etc.) but they require a bunch of baby sitting. I'm switching to Warre hives ("the People's Hive") which have all the same advantages but don't require the constant supervision of the bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm not sure you could say a TBH is more natural than a Warré, in fact there's a number of reasons it could be argued a Warré is more natural than either a TBH or a Lang.

BTW not saying a Warré is *better* than a Lang, but in terms of just purely natural, it is more natural.


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## catbackr (Jun 5, 2010)

" but they require a bunch of baby sitting"

help me understand this. I've got both Langs and KTBH and I don't think the topbars require as much intervention as the Langs. I do think they are more interesting and I tend to look at them more. What is the baby sitting that is referred to?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I wondered that too, but think I can answer.

The Warré method is very much about natural, leave the bees alone, beekeeping. According to the Warré theory, it is only nessecary to open the hive twice a year. Yes, you heard right.

Obviously a TBH should be opened more than that, and the management needed to allow bees to reach their fullest natural potential in a lang would require it to be opened quite a few times per year. Even commercial beekeepers who need to cut time spent to the minimum would open their lang something around 7 times per year although this could vary upwards depending on location, climate, and just what methods they are using.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Oldtimer said:


> would open their lang something around 7 times per year


A significant amount of these times are required for treating I'm sure. For those who don't treat, getting into hives can be reduced.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

No that's not factoring in treating, as that is done at the same time as other manipulations.

Remember to a commercial guy, time is money. If he can cut his visits to the hives during a busy time of year, by even just one less visit per year, that could represent the ability to keep more hives, and therefore enjoy a bigger income. 

It all has to be viewed holistically though. There will be some beekeepers, even commercial, who don't treat. But the downside is they don't get a very big honey crop. Each beekeeper will have to decide on their own philosophy regarding treatment, the money they save by not doing it, and then the money they lose by not doing it, their own survival in the industry, and the desire we all have to be as treatment free as possible.

But of course there will be variation as each beekeeper has his own methods, and a beginner beekeeper might be in the hive quite a bit, just for the pure enjoyment of it.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Treatment timing trumps any other reason to open up hives. It has it's own requirements. You can piggyback onto that for a hive inspection, but having a reduced or no treatment plan will allow one to reduce hive inspections.

I'm done, won't keep beating this drum.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

A little off topic but here is the schedule I worked to in a honey producing non migratory business back in the days before mites. We didn't treat for anything not even nosema, no chemicals were used it was totally organic.

1. early spring round. Entrance gaurds removed and bottom boards scraped clean. Stores checked and old brood combs replaced.

2. spring, swarm preperation checking and swarm control if needed.

3. spring. Splits made and cells put in in preperation for two queening

4. spring. Splits recombined into 2 queen hives. Supers added if needed.

5. early summer. supers added.

6. summer. Dependant on location one or more visits made to add more honey supers

7. Late fall, honey removed.

8. late fall. Hives wintered down, ie stores checked and bees fed if needed, entrance gaurds put on.

Any less visits than that would have reduced the bees capacity to reach their full honey production potential.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Here is what my schedule looks like unless a need arises to do more:

1. early spring round. Entrance guards removed and bottom boards scraped clean. Stores checked and old brood combs replaced.

-----------Optional 
3. spring. Splits made and cells put in in preperation for two queening

4. spring. Splits recombined into 2 queen hives. Supers added if needed.
-----------Optional 

5. early summer. supers added, enough for the entire crop. Inspect brood.

6. Late fall, honey removed. Brood inspection.

7. late fall. Hives wintered down, ie stores checked, entrance guards put on. Does not require opening hive. Hefting test for stores.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well that schedule is fine and no doubt followed by many, if not most. No issues here!

No requeening though? You'd let swarming take care of that right? Again, that will cost you honey.

But missing out those "optional" bits will cost you honey. We as I said, were about maximising the bees capacity to reach their full honey producing potential. The time spent in two queening and ensuring good healthy young queens, was more than repaid by the extra honey we got. The 2 queeners averaged around a box more honey than the single queeners.

Also, adding all supers at once is a wasteful procedure. Doing that means just guessing at what the crop will be and may end up with empty boxes on the hive all season which is not good for the bees, or conversly the bees run out of room and you don't come and put more boxes on. We only ever added one box at a time.

I guess my background and approach is as a business, and like any business the more money the better.

I guess at it simplest, a lang could be visited 2 times per year. Spring, put some boxes on, Fall, take them off. 
It wouldn't be a very good idea, but it would be simple, and some would argue, more natural.


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## Buz Green (Jun 29, 2009)

Oldtimer.

Are you and Barry speaking of KTBH's or Warre's on these last few posts?

If it's Warre's, can you direct me to some info about "two queening" as I have had some ideas about trying that with the cut outs I do.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

No, I use Lang's, so does OT. Just comparing apples to apples.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Around here, I've seen a few beekeepers try top bar hives (TBHs). The success has been pretty minimal.

The TBHs do well in the summers, but winters really seem to take a toll on the bees in TBHs. I suspect it has a lot to do with "heat rises" (and a stacked hive is more efficient given that aspect of thermodynamics) and "bees tend to move up into stores." Frankly, beekeepers using Langs here tend to see bees move vertically to reach stores and possible even starve rather than move horizontally.

I'm not saying that TBHs can't work, or don't have some success. My experience has been that vertical hives fare much better when trying to overwinter in cold climates.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Buz G
I think this has turned to langs,I'm new and green but that is what I'm seeing:s 
I like going into my hives,Often:no: If I knew they would not Abscond I would go in a couple times a week,or at least a couple a month,maybe I'll get better as time goes on or get 365 hives and look into one a day :applause:


Tommyt


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hi Buz 

No sorry, we were talking about in langs, a bit off topic i know.

In theory, it could be done in a Warré. However it is not really compatable with the Warré method of nadiring because the two queens have to be seperated by an excluder. This would prevent the queen and brood nest moving downwards in the hive as honey is stored. it could work if boxes were added on top rather than underneath.

The other thing though, the brood chamber in the langs we ran was a lot bigger then the brood chamber in a typical Warré. One queen is quite capable of fully utilizing a full sized Warré brood chamber so there may be little advantage in using two queens.

None the less, if you can find a way to profitably utilize two queens in a Warré it would be an interesting experiment and I'd love to hear about it.

two queening was discussed on beesource a while ago, here is the thread.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249137&highlight=queen


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## Buz Green (Jun 29, 2009)

Oldtimer and Barry.
Thanks for the clarification and the info.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Barry said:


> 7. late fall. Hives wintered down, ie stores checked, entrance guards put on. Does not require opening hive. Hefting test for stores.


The heft test has one drawback. With many colonies, they all feel heavy after the first yard. Weighing each colony works better for me.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I suppose, but I don't have near as many hives as you. We get such big fall flows here that I never worry about them getting enough. I also take honey off before the fall flow starts. I've always had heavy hives going into winter.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Assuming you want to manage a hive to it's full potential as far as bees and honey, then a Top Bar Hive requires more frequent manipulation mostly because you have a fixed space and can't just pile on supers, or if you are going to pile on supers, then there is no advantage to the horizontal configuration.

In other words, since the space is limited in the top bar hive, you have to manage the space by harvesting, opening the brood nest etc, where with a Langstroth, I MIGHT have to open the brood nest once or twice, or not at all depending on the flow and the way the bees are building up, but I can just pile on the supers and come back in the fall once the flow hits. With the limited space of a top bar hive I have to harvest a few times to keep some space for them to put the honey.


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## Growing Boy (Jan 28, 2009)

This thread really sums up what my thought proccess has been lately. Having stuck my toes in the beekeeping water last year wondering whether or not I wanted to get back into it I have now decided to go into deeper water. After much soul searching (honestly)
I came to conclusions that will probably fit FOR ME and my property, climate and conditions. Would other beeks dispute my choices? (Chuckle.) What do you think?
But...............................
It comes down to most questions in life.
The very least you can do is make an INFORMED decision. If it works for you then it works, if it doesn't, rethink it and adjust or give it up. 
It makes me smile to say it but it's really only another relationship
problem in our lives.


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## 11x (May 14, 2009)

the style of top bar hive you use has alot to do with the "babysitting". you chose the bio bees design. side entrances are a big part of your "babysitting" the deminsions of the hive also have alot to do with it. i sugest you find some better hive plans and see if your tbh experience is a better one. i have no problem with my tbhs. i am sure if i didnt want to go in my hives but 2 or 3 times a year they would be just fine.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

11x,

Side entrances don't necessarily = more maintenance than an end entrance. If you start a colony at one end with side entrances as I do, I see no difference in management compared to that of an end entrance. Except for the fact that you get the added versatility of accessing the colony from the front or back. This is likely the reason Phil Chandler of biobees.com recently officially changed his stance and has now switched to colonies at one end rather than starting at the center. 

Best,
Matt


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

I like the side entrances because you only have to move the bars in one direction when you open it up and check your hive. The next time you open, you move em back the other way. If you read Phil's book, there are other clever manipulations you can do with side entrances. 

Anyway, I'm selling all but one of my hives - keeping that one for comparison and research.http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250649


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