# decline in protein of Goldenrod Pollen



## camero7

After listening to Randy Oliver mention it last week I looked up some information. This is quite concerning since I depend on Goldenrod pollen for my fall buildup.

https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rel...rotein-in-crucial-pollen-source-for-bees.html

"Goldenrod, a common North American perennial that blooms from late July through October, offers bees some of the last available pollen before winter. Bees that overwinter must store substantial amounts of pollen to rear their winter young. Declines in pollen protein could potentially threaten bee health and survival and weaken bees' ability to overwinter on a continental scale, said Jeffery Pettis, study co-author and research entomologist with the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Agricultural Research Service. "A poor diet sets bees up for failure," he said. "Previous research shows bees have shorter lifespans when fed lower quality pollen."


----------



## cervus

Great. What next? Why have all the forces in the universe aligned against the honeybee?


----------



## enjambres

When I heard that I wondered if that was for all species of goldenrod. NY has more than hundred species, and I think there are way more than that nationwide.

Enj.


----------



## camero7

Not sure but it would make sense that it affects even more than Goldenrod. Worrisome.


----------



## cervus

It's a pretty safe bet that the physiological effects they found transfer across species and apply to the whole genus. I wouldn't think a single species within that genus would be unique in that regard. But you never know.


----------



## Gypsi

Didn't read the article, and I have to run, but Camero did they have any idea what was causing the decline in protein content? soil conditions? Temperature?


----------



## cervus

Elevated atmospheric CO2 levels.


----------



## Gypsi

well that isn't going to change instantly


----------



## wildbranch2007

I've started breathing slower :scratch: just trying to do my part. In the areas of the country that have napp weed, it is taking over the golden rod areas, it doesn't produce as well, wonder about the protein levels in that.


----------



## Redhawk

What they say about the real possibility of the affect of CO2 on possibly millions of species of flora definitely raises a red flag. And once again it shows how the industrial machine has for decades put quantity over quality.


----------



## Gypsi

we will have to muddle through this too. I guess.


----------



## camero7

I'm going to start open feeding of pollen substitute this week and see if they take it. If so it will be a big indication that their pollen isn't up to snuff.


----------



## Redhawk

Good idea, Cam. What type of substitute will you be using? Keep us posted.


----------



## camero7

I ordered a bag of Mann Lake Ultra Bee. I'll use that. In the spring they take it pretty well before there's lots of pollen available. We'll see.


----------



## Duncan151

I have read, from several sources, that the nutrient levels in our food crops have been declining for years. This makes sense as well.


----------



## Cyan

I started feeding dry pollen substitute last week, and they're constantly working it. I've been keeping an eye on them since I started, and strangely enough, it seems to have subsided their robbing behavior.


----------



## RayMarler

The report is full of suggestions and possibilities, more propaganda...

Deleted...


----------



## Cyan

I can't and won't comment on the report, but the alternative is real simple: there just isn't much pollen to be brought in where I'm at. So the logical choice is to feed. 

But as I've mentioned in other posts, if the weather is favorable for it, Japanese Knotweed is going to be huge here.


----------



## Nordak

Duncan151 said:


> I have read, from several sources, that the nutrient levels in our food crops have been declining for years. This makes sense as well.


They have also recently linked nutrient levels as a possible reason for the uptick in obesity rates over the years. Essentially, the body is screaming for nutrition, so to compensate, folks eat, eat, eat. Food for thought, pun intended. I assume bees will try and compensate by jamming as much pollen in comb as they can. Pollen bound may replace honey bound.


----------



## Cloverdale

enjambres said:


> When I heard that I wondered if that was for all species of goldenrod. NY has more than hundred species, and I think there are way more than that nationwide.
> 
> Enj.


What Randy was saying is that since 1960 or so the CO2 has affected the protein content in pollen by about a 30% reduction.


----------



## Duncan151

Nordak said:


> They have also recently linked nutrient levels as a possible reason for the uptick in obesity rates over the years. Essentially, the body is screaming for nutrition, so to compensate, folks eat, eat, eat. Food for thought, pun intended. I assume bees will try and compensate by jamming as much pollen in comb as they can. Pollen bound may replace honey bound.


Great, now we are going to have fat bees!!!! :ws:


----------



## johno

I read an article some time back where some German guys found that an increase in co2 increased crop yields, I guess that will not fit todays agenda. Nordak I guess I eat the same food as some of these obese folks but am still reasonably skinny, maybe their bodies are screaming for all that nutrition just like some bodies are screaming for some of that cocaine stuff. 
Johno


----------



## Nordak

Duncan151 said:


> Great, now we are going to have fat bees!!!! :ws:


No more small cell! 😄


----------



## Nordak

johno said:


> I read an article some time back where some German guys found that an increase in co2 increased crop yields, I guess that will not fit todays agenda. Nordak I guess I eat the same food as some of these obese folks but am still reasonably skinny, maybe their bodies are screaming for all that nutrition just like some bodies are screaming for some of that cocaine stuff.
> Johno


So many factors in the obesity issue. Too numerous to get into. I should have stated perhaps it further aggravates an already growing problem, according to some research.


----------



## cervus

johno said:


> I read an article some time back where some German guys found that an increase in co2 increased crop yields, I guess that will not fit todays agenda. Nordak I guess I eat the same food as some of these obese folks but am still reasonably skinny, maybe their bodies are screaming for all that nutrition just like some bodies are screaming for some of that cocaine stuff.
> Johno


That's true, but this particular study looked at protein in pollen, and other studies have shown the same thing in wheat and rice. The authors summed up the process involved pretty succinctly; _Elevated levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide - a building block for plant sugars -have allowed many plants to grow faster and bigger. But this growth spurt can dilute plants' total protein, rather than concentrating it in the grain, resulting in a less nutritious food source._


----------



## Duncan151

cervus said:


> That's true, but this particular study looked at protein in pollen, and other studies have shown the same thing in wheat and rice. The authors summed up the process involved pretty succinctly; _Elevated levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide - a building block for plant sugars -have allowed many plants to grow faster and bigger. But this growth spurt can dilute plants' total protein, rather than concentrating it in the grain, resulting in a less nutritious food source._


Have you ever grown any of the, "Giant" versions of our regular vegetables, like those giant pumpkins? They never taste as good as the normal or smaller versions of the same plants, they are just bigger.


----------



## dudelt

Maybe we should get Monsanto or some of the other big ag companies to make genetically altered goldenrod with high protein pollen. They could solve all our problems! LOL


----------



## camero7

Why do the trolls come out when you're trying to have a serious discussion of an important change in things?


----------



## Cloverdale

camero7 said:


> Why do the trolls come out when you're trying to have a serious discussion of an important change in things?


It's their mentality unfortunately.. What a shame. Learned some good stuff from Randy Oliver at Bee a Wellness last weekend, did you attend camero7?


----------



## camero7

Yeah I was there Fri and Saturday.


----------



## Cloverdale

What did you think?


----------



## camero7

It was worth the trip... nice to meet some people I correspond with from time to time. Learned a little.


----------



## pskoskiewicz

It might not have been very useful for commercial guys, but Sunday was the best part of the workshop. Watching Randy work a hive is a treat - he truly is a bee charmer! We did lots of inspections, saw a suspected EFB, did nosema sampling, Holst test, sugar rolls and alcohol washes, etc. Then in the afternoon the roles were reversed and we were supposed to demo for the experts. Let's just say, that no one wanted to be the first one,  If you are a backyard beekeeper, workshops like these are the best - watching the experts one picks up so many little tricks, but also one realizes that there are things that they struggle with too, so it's not just you. Pat Bono of NY Bee Wellness did a fantastic job putting this workshop together. Highly, highly recommended.

Przemek


----------



## Cloverdale

pskoskiewicz said:


> It might not have been very useful for commercial guys, but Sunday was the best part of the workshop. Watching Randy work a hive is a treat - he truly is a bee charmer! We did lots of inspections, saw a suspected EFB, did nosema sampling, Holst test, sugar rolls and alcohol washes, etc. Then in the afternoon the roles were reversed and we were supposed to demo for the experts. Let's just say, that no one wanted to be the first one,  If you are a backyard beekeeper, workshops like these are the best - watching the experts one picks up so many little tricks, but also one realizes that there are things that they struggle with too, so it's not just you. Pat Bono of NY Bee Wellness did a fantastic job putting this workshop together. Highly, highly recommended.
> 
> Przemek


Pat does not get enough recognition in her role of educating Beekeepers. What I did learn was primarily the mites are the focus now due to new beeks wanting to be treatment free before having a few years experience in keeping a managed hive of tiny animals, namely honey bees, and people not realizing the extent of management and knowledge that is needed. Thus recognition of the "other" diseases of honey bees are somewhat forgotten and/or not correctly diagnosed. Pretty scarey! There is just so much to learn. I agree, I think all Beekeepers should take this workshop.


----------



## jim lyon

So elevated levels of CO2 allow plants to grow faster and bigger and if we can then assume that this results in plants that produce more pollen with lower protein levels how do we, in fact, know which is better as it relates to bee health, lower volume with higher protein or higher volume with less protein.


----------



## Cloverdale

Well I would think the higher protein is more important.


----------



## cervus

jim lyon said:


> So elevated levels of CO2 allow plants to grow faster and bigger and if we can then assume that this results in plants that produce more pollen with lower protein levels how do we, in fact, know which is better as it relates to bee health, lower volume with higher protein or higher volume with less protein.


Ha! Good point. I think that is the "_Our work suggests there is a strong possibility that decreases in pollen protein could contribute to declines in bee health, but we haven't yet made that final link"_ caveat. It has to be left open, there are many more graduate degrees to be had!


----------



## camero7

I put some dry pollen sub on a couple of hives in one yard this afternoon. So far the bees are pretty much ignoring it. Going to put some on some hives in my other yards. Cheap insurance IMO.



> So elevated levels of CO2 allow plants to grow faster and bigger and if we can then assume that this results in plants that produce more pollen with lower protein levels how do we, in fact, know which is better as it relates to bee health, lower volume with higher protein or higher volume with less protein


We don't know, but it stands to reason that the pollen sacs have not grown bigger and bees can carry only so much pollen on a trip. So will the bees compensate by sending out more pollen carriers? I certainly don't have the answer but it's just something I think we need to be aware of.


----------



## wildbranch2007

camero7 said:


> I put some dry pollen sub on a couple of hives in one yard this afternoon. So far the bees are pretty much ignoring it. Going to put some on some hives in my other yards. Cheap insurance IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> We don't know, but it stands to reason that the pollen sacs have not grown bigger and bees can carry only so much pollen on a trip. So will the bees compensate by sending out more pollen carriers? I certainly don't have the answer but it's just something I think we need to be aware of.


never used dry pollen, what do you put it in so the elements don't affect it, it's so humid up here this weekend, I would think it would become a liquid, but we finally got over an inch of rain for the first time since May.


----------



## camero7

I just put it in an olive jar [eat the olives first]. Rain doesn't get in, but then we haven't had much and none today. I use that method in the spring and I need to refill the jars almost every day. Much easier than mixing, opening and closing. Can do this without gear or smoke.


----------



## Ian

jim lyon said:


> So elevated levels of CO2 allow plants to grow faster and bigger and if we can then assume that this results in plants that produce more pollen with lower protein levels how do we, in fact, know which is better as it relates to bee health, lower volume with higher protein or higher volume with less protein.


Exactly, 
How about year to year variability?? Good years bad years, lush growth poor growth. We monitor this in our crop production. 

This study was geared towards one specific narrative


----------



## cervus

Ian said:


> This study was geared towards one specific narrative


Yep, one specific narrative...declining pollen protein levels in goldenrod. So the USDA, Purdue University, University of Maryland, and Williams college are collectively in cahoots to massage the data? To what end? Someone needs to get to the bottom of this vile rumor of the earth being round too.


----------



## johno

Well Camero more and more trolls coming out, So basically you are saying if we do not agree with you we must just shut up. To put a little perspective into this discussion just consider that the oldest specimen of bees found dates back 100 million years and at that time co2 was much higher than it is now. Mans history maybe 200 thousand years so I would worry more on the humans ability to survive than that of the honey bee.


----------



## wildbranch2007

gee I get the impression all this reallly hot weather is making the beeks more testy than the bees:shhhh:


----------



## camero7

wildbranch2007 said:


> gee I get the impression all this reallly hot weather is making the beeks more testy than the bees:shhhh:


 :thumbsup:


----------



## Ian

cervus said:


> Yep, one specific narrative...declining pollen protein levels in goldenrod. So the USDA, Purdue University, University of Maryland, and Williams college are collectively in cahoots to massage the data? To what end? Someone needs to get to the bottom of this vile rumor of the earth being round too.


It's a studdy thst looks at a pollen sample from 100 years ago and then projects 50 years from now. The narrative it geared towards the negative. How about the flip side on that?? More plants, lush growth, more nectar, more food. 
the narrative is 50 year negative prediction. How about a 50 year prediction, huge golden rod crops coming soon ...


----------



## cervus

Ian said:


> It's a studdy thst looks at a pollen sample from 100 years ago and then projects 50 years from now. The narrative it geared towards the negative. How about the flip side on that?? More plants, lush growth, more nectar, more food.
> the narrative is 50 year negative prediction. How about a 50 year prediction, huge golden rod crops coming soon ...


They tested a hypothesis. The results are what they are. The scientific method has no agenda.


----------



## jim lyon

Whats the hypothesis? I see 2 data points of evidence and an admitted unproven presumption that this just might be a negative factor in bee health. Is it any more of a leap in logic to assume that more lush plant growth and more total pollen might well result in healthier hives? Either way its a guess.


----------



## Barry

cervus said:


> The scientific method has no agenda.


As long as humans are conducting the science, there's an agenda.


----------



## cervus

jim lyon said:


> Whats the hypothesis? I see 2 data points of evidence and an admitted unproven presumption that this just might be a negative factor in bee health. Is it any more of a leap in logic to assume that more lush plant growth and more total pollen might well result in healthier hives? Either way its a guess.


_Researchers found that the overall protein concentration of goldenrod pollen fell about one-third from the onset of the Industrial Revolution to the beginning of the 21st century._

I guess their hypothesis was that the rise in atmospheric CO2, again well documented, was a contributing factor. They then conducted the field experiment with incremental increases in CO2;

_A 2-year controlled field experiment that exposed goldenrod to a gradient of carbon dioxide levels from 280 to 500 ppm showed strikingly similar decreases in pollen protein, Dukes said._

Correlation does not equal causation, but when it walks like a duck... I agree at this point it is nothing more than a guess. But if I were a betting man, I would have to go with the evidence that is before me.



Barry said:


> As long as humans are conducting the science, there's an agenda.


That's true. Unfortunate but true. Applying the scientific method _correctly_ seeks to eliminate, or greatly reduce human bias. Overall, the scientific method has served us quite well. What's the alternative? And I still can't understand what their supposed agenda is exactly?


----------



## Ian

cervus said:


> They tested a hypothesis. The results are what they are. The scientific method has no agenda.


Scientific methods show no bias either way. Where is the flip side to "the rest of the story"?

Protein production in plant growth is nothing new and extremely variable year to year. More than one variable determine such. CO2 levels decreasing protein content hinges on one factor...and the flip side of that factor holds huge advantage to bee health


----------



## cervus

Ian said:


> Scientific methods show no bias either way. Where is the flip side to "the rest of the story"?
> 
> Protein production in plant growth is nothing new and extremely variable year to year. More than one variable determine such. CO2 levels decreasing protein content hinges on one factor...and the flip side of that factor holds huge advantage to bee health


I'm hoping for the rest of the story too, and I'm pretty sure with the emphasis on climate change, every biological unit on this green earth will be the subject of one study or another. Hopefully, it is an offset...more forage, but less protein = less forage, more protein.
The yearly variation is very real, heck even a fertilization regime effects crude protein. But that's the beauty of a 174 year-old data set. The yearly variation, or noise, can be accounted for and trends emerge.


----------



## Ian

>>more forage, but less protein = less forage, more protein.<<

That is crop production simply put. What more of a trend do you want to see? 
I speaking of the off set of their conclusion. Abundance.


----------



## cervus

Ian said:


> >>more forage, but less protein = less forage, more protein.<<
> 
> That is crop production simply put. What more of a trend do you want to see?
> I speaking of the off set of their conclusion. Abundance.


At first blush, it would seem that it is already an offset. Bigger plants surely means more biomass and more biomass surely means the same or better nutrition if just by means of sheer volume or density alone. But this (from article); _Elevated levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide - a building block for plant sugars -have allowed many plants to grow faster and bigger. But this growth spurt can dilute plants' total protein, rather than concentrating it in the grain, resulting in a less nutritious food source._ indicates existing crops (plants) are producing less protein *per plant*. So the only offset would have to come from more plants. I don't know what the trend is in Canada, but in the United States, ag land (and even undeveloped, "natural" areas) is being converted to other uses at a fast pace. Farmland is especially hard hit. So unless that trend is reversed (more undeveloped land = more plants), the offset may be a moot point.


----------



## cervus

Duncan151 said:


> Have you ever grown any of the, "Giant" versions of our regular vegetables, like those giant pumpkins? They never taste as good as the normal or smaller versions of the same plants, they are just bigger.


And apparently less nutritious than their "normal" counterparts. :lookout:


----------



## Ian

cervus said:


> At wed many plants to grow faster and bigger. But ce.[/I] indicates existing crops (plants) are producing less protein *per plant*. So point.


Yes that's how it works, abundance production, less concentrated protein . Another offset advantage is more nectar 

Abundance of production >>> :thumbsup:

Do you have dandelion down there? Unbalanced protein profile but lots of it... Mixed off with fruit pollen, fantastic abundant food. Key word, diversity


Sometimes the focus on alarmism leads the perspective which miss the actual points


----------



## cervus

Good. I agree completely. I think.


----------



## Ian

And again Beekeepers are being used to front an agenda with a study and a story that will virtually never play out as presented 

But I can't count the number of papers which ran it


----------



## camero7

I put out ultra bee supplement for open feeding in all my yards. None have touched it.


----------



## Ian

Remember this is a study projecting 50 years from now, report back in 50 after feeding the Ultra Bee


----------



## Cyan

I ran out of pollen sub and was away for several days, but I set the feeder up last night. They didn't seem interested, but after work today they were indeed working it. Granted, it's not an ideal protein source,but it's better than sawdust or grain dust.


----------



## greg espey

Cyan said:


> View attachment 27548
> 
> 
> I ran out of pollen sub and was away for several days, but I set the feeder up last night. They didn't seem interested, but after work today they were indeed working it. Granted, it's not an ideal protein source,but it's better than sawdust or grain dust.


I add some lemongrass oil in the center. Just a few drops and it helps them locate it.. I also put real pollen on top which seems to help...


----------



## camero7

I've had it available to all my yards this fall. So far none have touched it.


----------

