# Apivar didn't work, now what?



## Amiaji (Jun 8, 2017)

On July 9th I did an alcohol wash on my strongest hive. I had 17 mites in 340 bees. After some research I decided on Apivar as a treatment. Installed them on July 18th in both my main hive and a split I made from my observation hive. September 3rd I removed them. Today I did another alcohol wash and found 11 mites in 283 bees in hive 1 and 10 mites in 268 bees in the split. I'm not sure why Apivar didn't work but it obviously didn't.

My question is what do I try next. The temps are more agreeable for MAQS than it was in July. I'm a bit concerned with queen mortality with MAQS. OAV won't work (without multiple treatments) because there is plenty of brood in both hives. Hopguard?


I'm just not sure what do next. Any suggestions appreciated.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The apivar strips may not have been positioned correctly. I see so many people, even today when I checked some hives, put the strips on the outside edges of the brood nest, they think as long as bees are walking on the strips they will work. If the broodnest is say, 6 frames of brood, the strips must be among it not on the edge of it. So in a 10 frame box with 6 frames of brood, the strips would be placed on the outside edges of the 2 middle brood frames.


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## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

So from what I have heard with apivar is that it is such a low dosage it does not work well. Oxylic acid from personal experience works well but the crappy methods of application limit it. A commercial guy told me he purchased formic acid and made his own cardboard strips with a diluted solution but I don't remember the ratio. I just put some formic acid stripe on that I got from mannlake. I went for the lower does longer duration but have one hive in bad shape. So if I can I will check it this week and let you know how it works


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## Vectorjet (Feb 20, 2015)

Sorry to hear that apivar did not work well. I would go with MAQS to get the mites in the capped brood. The risk that you could lose a queen is minimal, compared to the risk of losing the hive to that high of a mite count. The bees are raising the winter bees now and unless you have mite tolerant bees that high of a mite count is problematic even for your milder winters down there.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have not try this method yet. But have use CO2 on the II queens and seen some you tube vids on using
CO2 to put the bees to sleep then use oad on them. My method is to use CO2 to put the bees to sleep then put them inside a 
nuc hive box. When they are awake use either oav or oad for the treatment. Oad can only be used once in a season.
We have cheap CO2 here just $5 dollars for 5 lbs. cylinder. That should be enough for a 2nd possibly a 3rd
treatment too. This will be a very quick treatment so take out the queens and caged her first. Be sure to test out a few
workers to see what CO2 does. Put them too close and the bees will be frozen to death. Then you can try a 2nd round of apivar later on. For the cap broods just put them inside another nuc box with some bees. After they emerged you can do another treatment on them. I use a homemade mini fridge incubator for my cap brood frames. Don't forget to feed the bees on the cap brood frames too.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I used Apivar for the first time last June. On one hive that had a screened bottom board there were 4000+ mites dropped during the first four weeks. I removed those strips at the end of July. I’d be willing to bet that today my mite population is back up. Remember that you applied those strips at the time when mite populations are expanding exponentially. They probably worked fine. That doesn’t mean that you don’t need another end of season treatment.

For reasons I won’t go into…..I had a number of hives that were in a full state of collapse in June. I fully expected to lose them all. When I returned to remove the strips….I also expected to remove the empty equipment….I was stunned to return to thriving hives. I lost two out of thirty…and every one of the remaining 28 was booming. 

My point. Don’t feel like your initial treatment effort was wasted. I’d wager that your hives are in a lot better shape for it.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I think the only way you can say the Apivar didn't work, for sure, is if you re-sampled/retested the mite count about 2 weeks after you treated. You did not indicate that you retested. 

Retesting is considered to be one of the steps of integrated pest management (IPM). 

You could try Apivar again but test afterwards. You also need to retest after using Hopguard, MAQs, OA or anything. Keep in mind that each product has certain temperature requirements, time required in the hive, exposure to honey supers, use during certain times of the population build up - peak - and decline. Check out the information on the Honey Bee Health Coalition web site.

MAQS works well for mites within capped cells as well as those on the bees -- but it can be tough on them and can have queen problems. 

Hopguard is a fumigant and I don't think it does anything for mites in capped cells. 

Alternate products to avoid resistance.

In your case, the mites had about 2 months after the Apivar strips were removed to increase their population again and remember, it is nearly exponential growth and not all mites are killed with one treatment. And, not all increase in mite population is just from the mites in your hives -- horizontal transfer from other hives via robbing, wayward drones, etc. from other highly infected hives in your area (i.e. the MITE BOMBS in the neighborhood) can also cause your mite numbers to raise rapidly -- so again, continually monitor and test for mites.


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2004)

I agree with Beemandan, based on your description I don't think that you can assume Apivar 'didn't work'. I think it probably did...which is why your hives are alive today. Having to treat more than once a year is common, I treat three times. In the spring with MAQs, now (when supers have been removed) with Apivar, and again in late December with an Oxalic drip. You are far south of me, so your schedule will be different and you may need four treatments rather than three. Consult serious hobbyists or commercial beekeepers in your area. But be very careful with MAQs, for all the reasons mentioned by others.


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## Amiaji (Jun 8, 2017)

orthoman said:


> I think the only way you can say the Apivar didn't work, for sure, is if you re-sampled/retested the mite count about 2 weeks after you treated.


This is exactly what I did. I started the treatment on July 19th. The treatment period is 42 to 56 days. I removed them on September 3rd, 46 days later. I retested them on the 19th, 16 days after treatment, and while the mite count was somewhat less than it was before treatment it is still way too high.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

orthoman said:


> Hopguard is a fumigant and I don't think it does anything for mites in capped cells.


Hopguard is a fumigant?


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

As I said Harry, I thought it was a fumigant -- but in checking HHC, they describe it as a contact treatment -- I stand corrected.


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## Nhaupt2 (May 31, 2016)

BeePro, why do you throw this stuff out continuously? you haven't even tested it out yourself to see if it works, why suggest it to people? 
it may have merit, but holy cow, try it yourself before suggesting somebody else do it.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You will see whether or not it will work once you tested it yourself. I know for sure oad will work even though I have
not use it myself. I've seen beekeepers use CO2 before on you tube vids. It works for them. So if OAD and CO2 work then
how come you said my suggestion will not work? The only way to find out is to run a test trial. And I already know the result after the treatment.


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## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

So I have never used the dribble method for Oxalic Acid but I do know the fumigation does work since I have tried it. I am curious why the CO2 to put them to sleep? Seams to me like an extra step, expense and time for no reason.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The purpose of using CO2 is to gather all the worker bees together inside one nuc hive. This way they will not
be running around all over for better oad coverage. The separation of the cap broods is to ensure no more mites that
come out after the treatment. It will be a clean hive afterward. The 3rd suggestion on using the apivar again is to clean up the
residual mites in case the oad did not do a good job. Without the CO2 disturbing such a hive would be difficult and they will sting you too. CO2 is putting the bees to sleep like a baby.


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## bendriftin (Nov 1, 2010)

interesting concept. when I first learned of OA I decided that maybe the fumigation method would be better. Mixing OA with sugar syrup for the dribble concerned me due to the fact that it would potentially cause the bees to ingest it. I suppose that breathing it is no better. Either way, I certainly do not want to invest the time or money for using CO2. If it works for others then great, thank you for bringing new ideas to the table.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I've used CO2 on II queens and bees before. I know it works. The you tube vids used CO2 and oad together running 100s of
hives. It worked for them too. I do not doubt it at all. Having seen it already even though in vids, I know it is no longer a
concept. Beekeepers are actually using it for their mite treatment. It is no longer a concept. It is another form of IPM.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beepro said:


> I've used CO2 on II queens and bees before. I know it works. The you tube vids used CO2 and oad together running 100s of
> hives. It worked for them too. I do not doubt it at all. Having seen it already even though in vids, I know it is no longer a
> concept. Beekeepers are actually using it for their mite treatment. It is no longer a concept. It is another form of IPM.


So CO2 will kill varroa mites, but not the bees that they are on? Does the dosage required to kill varroa mites anesthetize the bees?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Dups!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Only the CO2 is needed to put the bees to asleep while transferring them into the nuc hive for better OAD treatment. On
you tube instead of using alcohol, beekeepers use CO2 to put the bees to sleep (or frozen dead bees) and shake off the mites for a count. Since I've not done this experiment before, seeing it on you tube vids, I don't know if the CO2 will kill off the mites or not. Maybe the CO2 only put the mites and bees to asleep if done right. You don't want a frozen mite either because that will mess up the OAD mite count afterward. Yes, if OD on CO2 both the mites and bees will died, all frozen!

On open forums like these, one has to have an open minds (to learn from everybody.) What I presented may not be what you are looking for right now. Perhaps in the future this solution maybe what you are looking for. For now just put it a side as future reference. Over here we have the most deadly mites in my apiary and through out. We are facing a mite epidemic unlike other time in the history of beekeeping. Like you and the rest, I've been trying to find a workable solution to this crisis. Through the many challenges, I have invented my homemade oav gadget under the hive but did not use it. The oapowder gadget has been invented also but never been put to use either. Both have the potential to wipe out the mites completely using oa. It is not just blowing out smokes like others have said! There is a discussion here about one day the oav may not work on the mites anymore. What if the mites have developed resistant to all the chemicals we have been giving them. Then what should we do? Reading this post gave me the impression that the mites may be resistant to apivar already. There is an older Russian man here that cannot keep his hives alive without the use of amitraz (apivar) spray at 12% solution in the early Spring time treatment. Each year he has no other treatment option using the same regimen again and again. Who knows how many years he's been treating his bees for with the same chemicals. At one time he asked me what other options can I give him? I cannot give him an answer because even I don't know back then. Now I know, with many available options too. 
What I'm saying to you is don't be too fast too critical of the information presented on these forums. Sometimes when you are not at this level of beekeeping yet others are interested in what new solution is available. And yet I'm still learning just like you and everybody else on this forum. When I don't have a solution I try to find my answer by designing my little bee experiment. Maybe one day after absorbing all the new information you can come up with a better solution than I can to get rid of the mites. And when all else have failed we can always go back to the basics of beekeeping like this one here http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332871-Constant-mite-removal-management/page4 And when others are ready to try out new method to control the mites then there is a cheaper alternative for the ordinary joe like me, here http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?340312-My-ghetto-II-station
There is no short cut you can take just have to go through the learning curve like the rest of us devoting our time and resources into beekeeping. Getting frustrated on other member's posts will not speed up your learning curve any shorter. Through beekeeping I've learned to be a more patience person. There is no such thing as instant gratification!


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## costigaj (Oct 28, 2015)

I am not a big chemical guy but I did use Apivar last year to save my one and only hive and it worked well. I counted 17,000+ mites on the sticky board in 6 weeks. I had all medium boxes and the strips didn't fit well since they are made for deeps. 1/3 of the strip will get tucked under or pop-up if the frames in the top and bottom boxes don't line up exactly I thumb-tacked them diagonally across the frames to maximize contact. Hive overwintered great and it was split twice this year.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Wow that is a *lot* of mites. Great you were able to save the hive, plus make it into more hives this year!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If apivar did not work then I suspect the mites got the resistant already. A little experiment I would like to
try is to dust the bees with oa powder (oap) at every 5 days interval until the cap broods emerged. I have not read anybody has
tried using oap yet. I'm interested in how the larvae will develop under oap. Not sure how it will affect the queen or her eggs laying either.
Does oap works? Be sure to wear a dust mask to avoid inhaling the oap. Very damaging to your lungs should you breathe it in!


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## Amiaji (Jun 8, 2017)

I have ordered a Varrox and picked up a tub of OA. As soon as it gets here I will be starting treatment.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Interesting to see that finding stronger bees to work with and doing some selection hasn't been suggested.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> I counted 17,000+ mites on the sticky board in 6 weeks.


What? God my tf hives are almost mite free :scratch:



> Interesting to see that finding stronger bees to work with and doing some selection hasn't been suggested.


yeah, and this a good advise to all treaters too.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes don't feel constrained, it's the internet anyone is welcome to offer advice. 

Those with knowledge of TF beekeeping could check if TF beekeeping works in his area, is there anyone near him who does it successfully, wether a 17,000 mite hive can be cured by requeening with a stronger bee, and would it put him on the successful road he is now on.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I´m very sorry amiajii.
If bee density is still high I would take out some capped brood combs, wash the larvae and mites away with a spraying can without chemicals, put them in again, do some OAV if needed, feed like crazy and hope they make it. Or use sugar shake instead of OAV if no chemicals. Remember with all actions: Beekeeping is local and climate dependant!
Good luck!


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## Amiaji (Jun 8, 2017)

lharder said:


> Interesting to see that finding stronger bees to work with and doing some selection hasn't been suggested.



That is my ultimate goal but as this is my first year I started with 2 packages from Georgia. Had to have something to start with.


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## Amiaji (Jun 8, 2017)

I run all 8 frame medium hive bodies and most instructions for OAV is for 10 frame deeps. How much OA should I use per box? Since an 8 frame medium is about half the volume of a 10 frame deep do I cut the recommended amount of OA in half?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I wouldn't cut it in 1/2, because you are still trying to get coverage across 8 frames wide.

Thing with oxalic vapor, it can be overdosed by several multiples with no apparent harm to the bees, and I know this because I have experimentally given hives up to 4 times recommended dose, with best I could tell, no harm at all. 

I also read an article recently saying the currently accepted dose rate of 1 gm per deep Lang box is too low and 2 gms would be more effective.

If you do want to reduce the dosage, my opinion would be go to 3/4 what you would use for a 10 frame deep Lang.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> I wouldn't cut it in 1/2, because you are still trying to get coverage across 8 frames wide.
> 
> Thing with oxalic vapor, it can be overdosed by several multiples with no apparent harm to the bees, and I know this because I have experimentally given hives up to 4 times recommended dose, with best I could tell, no harm at all.


Although I haven't tried a 4x dose, my experience, too, is that the bees are quite insensitive to OAV dosage levels. I routinely increase the OAV dose by about 50% and have never seen any ill affects to the bees. Meaning, I would not reduce the recommended 10-frame dosage when going to 8-frame hives.


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## Amiaji (Jun 8, 2017)

> I have 8 frame hives or use mediums for brood chambers, how much OA should I use?
> 
> You always use one gram of OA per brood chamber to vaporize no matter the number of frames or size of the brood chamber. The only exception to this is when vaporizing a nucleus colony and then it is ½ gram.


I found this on the OxaVap site and now I am even more confused. If you reduce the dose for a Nuc then why wouldn't you reduce it for an 8 frame medium since the two are about the same volume? Maybe I am thinking too hard about it.

At any rate the general consensus is it is hard to overdose them so I will go with a full dose per box. Thanks for the advice everyone. :thumbsup:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Use the full dose both for the nuc hive and for the normal 8 or 10 frame hive. Whatever is
not use will be clean up by the bees anyway. When I ran my little oav experiment I've used 6x than
normal. This is pushing the oav dosage to the max I think. Bees were still flying the next day.


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## MimbresBees (Sep 22, 2016)

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