# BMPs for Commercial Beekeepers



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If we can make the assumption that the health of honeybees is a representative of the health of all pollinators;

And we can assume that native pollinators are difficult and expensive to monitor,

We can therefore conclude that monitoring the health of the honeybees, via commercial beekeepers, would be "most effective and practical" and "make the optimal use of one's resources"

That was the easy part. The tough part come when you must identify if and why the bees are having difficulties. The answer most likely lies in massive data acquisition, and application of....... and I am fuzzy here..... I believe it was epidemiology????? There have been recent gains in finding causation with intense math, that was previously overlooked. 

Crazy, eh Mark?

Crazy Roland


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

So, if the silence is deafening in this thread, it for good reason in my opinion.
Successful beekeepers do not beekeep by jury.

There are so many variables to each and ever aspect of honey bee management.
To attempt to summarize the huge array into simple statements is impossible.

Within the state of Oregon, for example, there are extreme variations in climate, forage, urbanization, ag sectors; these have profound impact on annual management strategies.

Pest & disease control. how many options there? How many people agree?
"Well, I'm sure that we can all agree that hives should be tested in the fall for mite levels and the resulting data applied against an economic threshold level to decide whether or not to treat, right?"
WRONG!!
Statements like that are the ones that end up included into ill informed, BMP documents.
But EVEN THAT statement could hold true in certain individuals operations. Such as a region with huge early flows, a summer durth and a late flow. They treat mid summer and in early spring.
Too many variables.

Nutrition. Same problem.
Hive density. It goes on forever......

I can tell you that when doing electrical work, I appreciate the NEC, and Ohm's law.
When I work our maintenance shop, I appreciate the standardization of fasteners and tools.
As far as BMP's go I really appreciate and fully implement Lock out / Tag out , and MSDS / Right to Know laws.
Both are wonderful BMP's

We are talking beekeeping here; I should not have to explain the difference to any one on this forum.
So, please give me just one Beekeeping BMP that we can all agree upon.

Here, let me start:

1) Do not fill hive feeders with gasoline.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Harry - I must have done a poor job of describing my suggestion. I am suggesting that pure data collection is the starting point. How do we know what needs to be done untill we can determine what is not right? For example, the easiest metric to start with may be length of a queen's productive life. I realize that prophylactic requeening may hamper data collection, but it the percentage that failed before requeening may still be valuable.

We tried the "if the bees died it is my fault" logic, but the last few years have shown that there is an outside influence that is out of our control. I would sure like to know what it is.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How about, "Avoid creating Varroa bombs by regular monitoring of specific hives to determine the growth of mite counts."?

Does it matter if we all agree with the recommended BMPs? They are recommendations, not rules or regulations.

And this is not just about honeybees, but all pollinators and Monarch butterflies.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> And this is not just about honeybees, but all pollinators and Monarch butterflies.


.....and the reason I didn't respond was I found the question a bit confusing. What beekeeper management practices might affect pollinators other than honeybees?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

jim lyon said:


> What beekeeper management practices might affect pollinators other than honeybees?


how about limiting the number of hives in an area so other pollinators that use the same weeds can compete? :shhhh:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> .....and the reason I didn't respond was I found the question a bit confusing. What beekeeper management practices might affect pollinators other than honeybees?


Bumblebees have been found with deformed wing virus which they may have gotten from honey bees by visiting the same flowers or somehow coming in contact with each other. Thoughts are that if beekeepers keep their varroa count down that there will be less DWV and therefore less exposure of that virus to bumblebees.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I'm not sure I can buy into the notion that honeybee competition is detrimental to other native pollinators, at least not to any measurable degree when compared to land management practices. Plows and pesticides are the primary enemies of pollinators and neither of those can be controlled by beekeepers.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Defining BMPs is such a government feel good exercise. 
the one thing that government can do to increase the health and viability of our native pollinator populations is to keep flowers in our ditches. No spraying and timely mowing. 
...but do you think they will even consider that easy reaching strategy? Nope, farmers will not allow it. Ditches are government control not farmers, tell the task force to focus on implementing a strategy which all municipal governments can adopt which increases the abundance of wild flowers in our ditches. We need to find a compromise between farmers and beekeepers, more diverse flowers, healthier pollinators .


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

.Have you noticed lately the focus is turning off bee health to native pollinators ? We are being lumped into the rest of agriculture, as we are, because we are able to manage these loss issues and pushing back at the environmental lobbies end game...we are part in parcel of agriculture, always have been but never identified as such until lately . ....


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> .....and the reason I didn't respond


And now Jimbo, my guess is you wish you hadn't.  lol


And, Harry's post sums it up. lol 


p.s. better than the Sunday funnies.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

DWV has been endemic in honeybees for a long time....well before varroa.

I've not seen ANY work that seeks to determine how long DWV has been present in bumblebee populations.

Why, if one just started using modern virus scanning technology on bumblebees, would one assume that the presence of a particular virus is a new occurance? For all we know, more virulent forms of DWV have migrated from bumble bee populations to honeybee populations....by no means am I saying this is what happened, I am saying that the data I've seen (that the virus is present in bumblebee populations) supports any number of conclusions and hypotheses equally....the notion that DWV has recently (since varroa) migrated from honeybees to bumblebees is only one of many possibilites.



sqkcrk said:


> Bumblebees have been found with deformed wing virus which they may have gotten from honey bees by visiting the same flowers or somehow coming in contact with each other. Thoughts are that if beekeepers keep their varroa count down that there will be less DWV and therefore less exposure of that virus to bumblebees.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Ian said:


> .Have you noticed lately the focus is turning off bee health to native pollinators ? We are being lumped into the rest of agriculture, as we are, because we are able to manage these loss issues and pushing back at the environmental lobbies end game...we are part in parcel of agriculture, always have been but never identified as such until lately . ....


Can't label our managed honey bee pollinators as "endangered species" but native pollinators can be labeled as such.
I sure don't want to see a push to protect the native pollinators by such a label because no measures were taken
when there seemed to be an issue with their well being. Imagine the possibility of acres and acres of private farmland, and public lands, off limits to protect dwindling populations of endangered native pollinators and their habitat.
That would be a game changer.
Discussing quality and quantity of pollinator forage may be a good, simple starting point.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

clyderoad said:


> That would be a game changer..


... Another arm of burocracy, surely a simple strategy like ditch diversity preservation is achievable without imposing producer land management regulations


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> p.s. better than the Sunday funnies.


Some people skip the business news section and go straight to the funnies 
Lol


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

We have Crop Reduction Programs in place now. Adding pollinators to the reasons for these programs to exist and increasing the amount of money per acre paid might increase participation. 

Alex


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Ian said:


> Defining BMPs is such a government feel good exercise.


That's it folks, we'll all fell better when we get our new BMPs.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Ian said:


> ... Another arm of burocracy, surely a simple strategy like ditch diversity preservation is achievable without imposing producer land management regulations


Agree. And the faster something like that happens the better it will be for everyone in the long run.

We have a few endangered species here where whole stretches of beaches (piping plover) and entire sections of pine barrens (eastern tiger salamander) are literally
roped off because of their presence during breeding season or because of the limited habitat for their existence. Closed zone state and federal 'off limits'. Much better to avoid these types of scenarios if possible.


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Or maybe another leg for our buddies Monsanto and other chem company's.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

Wow, this could be a big project!

My summary of BMP - Beekeepers do what you need to do to keep your bee hives alive and be profitable at it!!!

This may cause some beeks to operate outside the legal realm of beekeeping, ie. approved mite treatments that cost 2 to 3 dollars per treatment and have not been the most effective whereas someone can get the ingredients and make there own for .20 per treatment which works highly effectively. 

What I have also found over the years is that I have different BMPs for different parts of operation, ie. hives that pollinate most the year & hives that go for honey in another state are handled totally different.

So, sqkcrk good luck with this, keep it as simple as possible.

P.S. If I was to make one change in our area, Southern California, I would have our DOT, Caltrans, stop spraying for weeds and other stuff. They are the largest user of products that kill my bees!!!


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hi guys, I have been spending the last 5 years trying to figure out the old BMP's and now you want to bring about new BMP's. Now about those native pollinators, when I plant buckwheat, crimson clover and any other forage how about a way to keep all those native pollinators off. I have 30 hives at home but the native pollinators make up about 70% of the insects feeding on stuff in my area so much about all those mouthfuls of food due only to honey bees. I would also agree that our VDOT contributes more to destroy wild flowers and weeds than anything else I know about. While on this rant I may as well complain about those folks who want to eradicate invasive species that are feeding pollinators when there is little else available. Just my 2 cents worth.
Johno


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I can see volunteer BMP's turning into something else.

Tom


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

TWall said:


> I can see volunteer BMP's turning into something else.
> 
> Tom


Such as what, Tom? Are you concerned that recommendations might turn into regulations?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

When you hear the words "We only want to hep you" run and hide.
Johno


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

johno said:


> When you hear the words "We only want to hep you" run and hide.
> Johno


Amen & Amen.
Those who believe "treatment free" is "the only way to go" would want to outlaw treatments because they "weaken" the gene pool, those who treat would want to make it a punishable offense to to be treatment free. All research & experimentation would only be done by those adept at the paper work to milk public money to pay for it, & the "little guy" would disappear.
Government intervention? I don't think any one wants this.
( the Soviets tried that, their non-production became legendary ...)
just venting, I guess. Now I will go calm down ....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Pests are already defined in NY State Bee Laws as something the State can regulate. It never has, only diseases. Even though pests, aka varroa, have killed more colonies in one decade than AFB ever has.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

johno said:


> When you hear the words "We only want to hep you" run and hide.
> Johno


Sticking your head in the sand is the best way to contribute to a discussion(Task Force) that is going to happen with or without you.:scratch:
And to boot they are asking for input.
I think I'd rather stick around and have a say.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That's why I am there, as well as others. We were given a chance to contribute. We'd be foolish not to.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

What thoughts will you be putting forward ?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

When and if ever this sort of discussion comes to VA my voice will be heard, telling the organizers that I am quite happy as I am without any regulators and such telling me what I can or cannot do and if that should come about it will be time to move to some backwood area where the regulators wont find me. Or do a final hot soapy water treatment on my bees. I will have no part in taking money from the state to subsidize my beekeeping as many do, and also do not want the state sticking their nose into my bee keeping any more than they already do.
Johno


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

About the only thing I have come up with is something pretty vague and open ended. If something specific is called for, seems like that would take a book and a particular style of management. So this is what I think I will submit as a BMP that would apply to beekeepers to address Pollinator Protection.

"Beekeepers should do their best to know their craft, know their own hives, know Honeybees, their diseases, pests, and predators, and keep their colonies alive and as healthy as possible."

That's about all I have come up with so far.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

That sounds good to me .

Why not push the agenda back at them, BMP's of "others" that would benefit the beekeeper. Since this is a government initiated venture (assumed) push it right into them

Make some waves, give them something different to think about. I've been in these meetings... Self directed


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That was part of the assignment too, Ian. To come up with BMPs for the other concerns at the table, AgChem Companies, Environmentalists, Fruit Growers, Vegetable Growers, Researchers, and NYS Governmental Departments.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Oh they would just love some ideas against ag corps... Lol. 

I've said this already but feel strongly about it. 
One of the simplest things gov can contribute to this issue is developing a policy that preserves natural habitat. Or in the U.S. expand on it. We need diversity. We need to protect it in the most obvious places


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The NY State Pollinator Protection Plan is supposed to address the lack of forage for Monarch Butterflies, which forages primarily on milkweed.

NYS Dept of Transportation, NYS Dept of Environmental Conservation, and NYS Parks have already talked about doing more than they currently are doing to provide more forage for Insect Pollinators and Monarch Butterflies. They know what they are doing and what they can do, so I hesitate to suggest what more they could do beyond what we have already talked about at the Task Force Meetings so far.

One thing I don't know is how success will be measured.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

This comment was included in the National Honey Report earlier this year.

"As it currently stands, domestic production of honey simply cannot keep pace with consumer demand in the United States. Collectively we need to start thinking of new ways to improve our domestic honey industry, from disease control to creating a better environment for our honey bees."


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

"They know what they are doing and what they can do, so I hesitate to suggest what more they could do beyond what we have already talked about at the Task Force Meetings so far."

What are they doing to to provide more forage for the Monarch?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> This comment was included in the National Honey Report earlier this year.
> 
> "As it currently stands, domestic production of honey simply cannot keep pace with consumer demand in the United States. Collectively we need to start thinking of new ways to improve our domestic honey industry, from disease control to creating a better environment for our honey bees."


When has America ever domestically produced all of the honey we consume? 1865?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ian said:


> "They know what they are doing and what they can do, so I hesitate to suggest what more they could do beyond what we have already talked about at the Task Force Meetings so far."
> 
> What are they doing to to provide more forage for the Monarch?


I'm not certain, but the DOT came to a meeting of the Apiary Industry Advisory Committee and talked about what they do as far as mowing and planting where possible so it meets safety concerns. Planting of milkweed wasn't discussed, that I recall.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Without involvement then voices don't get heard , but,

... we the government law makers are aware of these problems and have put together a task force to identify the issues so we can act on them accordingly ... 

Good luck being heard


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## PeterP (Feb 5, 2014)

The link is to a BMP for wintering bees in Ontario. This is an example of how a BMP can be structured and effectively delivered.

http://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ontariobee.com/files/document/Best%20Management%20Practices%20for%20Ontario%20Beekeepers%20in%20Advance%20of%20Winter%20-%20en.pdf

The challenge with BMP's for "wild" pollinator protection is that beekeepers have little direct management of the key factors - forage/nutrition, nesting sites, pesticide kill, etc. 

Regards Peter


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

How's the OBA's neonic directed farmer BMP's working out?


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## PeterP (Feb 5, 2014)

Ian said:


> How's the OBA's neonic directed farmer BMP's working out?


I didn't hear a big hue and cry about corn planter dust pesticide kills this year. Weather at planting time could have been a factor. I assume the dust problem was reduced significantly due to the proposed practices. Ontario's position on neonics in general is another topic. 

Regards Peter


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ontario's Pollinator Protection Plan has not yet been approved, has it? It has taken Ontario a year and a half, I believe, to get a final draft of their plan. Seems like NY wants to get theirs (ours?) done in three or four months. We'll see about that. Probably won't be anything final until Jan. 1.


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## PeterP (Feb 5, 2014)

The link below is a good starting point for understanding Ontario's approach to "pollinator protection". I like to give people links so they can read content in context and come to their own conclusions.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/pollinator/meeting-reg.htm

The Pollinator Health Strategy is published. see link. 

It includes 3 points;

1) Pay beekeepers that have high losses.
2) regulate neonics
3) develop health action plan to address multiple stressors.

Items 1&2 have been addressed. I have not seen anything specific related to the health action plan, except as an overlap with the neonics regulations.

Regards Peter

I found this recent article that I think describes things well.

http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/2015/08/31/federation-continues-work-on-a-complete-pollinator-health-strategy


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

That's what I am mean. Planter dust has been addressed through changing the flowable. That's a BMP that the industry sunk it's teeth into. 
It's the regulated use of the neonics is what I'm getting at. BMP's imposed on farmers from beekeeper lead government policy. How is that action working out?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> When has America ever domestically produced all of the honey we consume? 1865?


I don't know, maybe never.
The quote never mentions "all the honey" just that domestic production cannot keep pace with demand.
Growing demand.
So I'm guessing that the percent of domestic production is now a smaller percent of the overall consumption. 
A number cruncher will have to verify.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Ian said:


> Without involvement then voices don't get heard , but,
> 
> ... we the government law makers are aware of these problems and have put together a task force to identify the issues so we can act on them accordingly ...
> 
> Good luck being heard


When the doors are closed and decisions are made in secret the cry is that everyone is left out.
When we are invited to offer input the cry is that the decisions are already made and we won't be heard.
What an outlook!


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## PeterP (Feb 5, 2014)

Ian, I am an observer in the neonic discussion. I have no skin in the game. Retired hobbyist with 10 hives on a small fruit farm (not my farm) located in a green belt around Ottawa. 

The regulations started implementation in June/15. Too early to tell what will happen. May never be able to determine if regulations improved or made the situation worse . There are too many variables. 

Regulation is not new for Ontario. There is a ban on "cosmetic" pesticide use. As a home owner I cannot buy whole classes of pesticides for use on my lawn or garden. "Organic" pesticides have replaced the chemicals with varying degrees of success. Life goes on. 

Regards Peter


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

clyderoad said:


> I don't know, maybe never.
> The quote never mentions "all the honey" just that domestic production cannot keep pace with demand.
> Growing demand.
> So I'm guessing that the percent of domestic production is now a smaller percent of the overall consumption.
> A number cruncher will have to verify.


Probably somewhere in the mid 1970's when population and honey production was in the low 200 million mark. What difference does it really make, though. Currently we produce 150 to a 175 million pounds and consume around 400 million pounds. One would think that would mean it's pretty easy to sell a domestic crop but with our odd dual pricing structure it's getting increasingly difficult to market domestic honey. What's happening right now with the price imbalance in the U.S. just isn't a very pretty picture for domestic producers.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Clyderoad, the government task force does not lead to open doors, they are used as defections to the issues. if you want to change government policy, lean on lobby groups


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

PeterP said:


> The regulations started implementation in June/15. Too early to tell what will happen. ... There are too many variables


Exactly.
BMP's imposed on farmers in a product blamed for colony death, which may haven nothing to do with colony health. 
Here is one example of a task force helping to implement policy. They developed a pollinator health strategy, and implemented policy heavy on the neonic issue... 
Notice how the rest of the country distanced themselves from that same strategy ?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Ian said:


> Clyderoad, the government task force does not lead to open doors, they are used as defections to the issues. if you want to change government policy, lean on lobby groups


the task force is the open door.
the lobby group is the member(s) of the task force with an outlook/desires in common with your own, like Mark from the ESHPA.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Such as what, Tom? Are you concerned that recommendations might turn into regulations?


Mark,

Yes, I am concerned that 'well-meaning' recommendations/regulations could end up having negative impacts. 

Tom


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> The NY State Pollinator Protection Plan is supposed to address the lack of forage for Monarch Butterflies, which forages primarily on milkweed.


Mark,

This sounds like a broad plan with a very narrow focus. Monarch Butterfly Protection Plan sounds more appropriate.

I believe the monarch lays its eggs on milkweed. I believe it forages on a wide range of plants.

This is the type of situation that makes me less trusting. 

Tom


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

PeterP said:


> 1) Pay beekeepers that have high losses.
> 
> Regards Peter
> 
> ...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> I don't know, maybe never.
> The quote never mentions "all the honey" just that domestic production cannot keep pace with demand.
> Growing demand.
> So I'm guessing that the percent of domestic production is now a smaller percent of the overall consumption.
> A number cruncher will have to verify.


Probably has more to do with price and quality of the honey, rather than scarcity. We export honey. If someone here paid enough for it we wouldn't, would we? I hear of people with warehouses of honey waiting for the right price. And we import cheaper honey.

I haven't heard a report lately, but I doubt that the per capita consumption has changed much, 1 lb per person annually.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ian, does Manitoba have a Pollinator Protection Plan? Or one in development?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ian said:


> Notice how the rest of the country distanced themselves from that same strategy ?


The rest? Or do you mean "the west".


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

PeterP said:


> The link is to a BMP for wintering bees in Ontario. This is an example of how a BMP can be structured and effectively delivered.
> 
> http://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ontariobee.com/files/document/Best%20Management%20Practices%20for%20Ontario%20Beekeepers%20in%20Advance%20of%20Winter%20-%20en.pdf


There is good information here. Perhaps commercial beekeepers don't need it, but it can be very helpful to newer beekeepers.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

zhiv9 said:


> The rest? Or do you mean "the west".


More neonics used out west than in Ontario ...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> Ian, does Manitoba have a Pollinator Protection Plan? Or one in development?


No, the MBA has not taken such action. 
That ONA pollinator protection plan was developed soely to implement restrictions of neonic use. Without the neonic campaign at hand, that hand book would not of been created .


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

One BMP for Beekeepers that should be recommended is comb rotation. With all the Chem treatments Beekeepers rely on, exchanging the comb would help reduce that in house Chem exposure


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> When the doors are closed and decisions are made in secret the cry is that everyone is left out.
> When we are invited to offer input the cry is that the decisions are already made and we won't be heard.
> What an outlook!


:thumbsup:


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ian said:


> More neonics used out west than in Ontario ...


Yes, but the west is hardly the rest of the country. Beekeepers in the 2nd largest and most populous province also support restriction or a ban on neonics.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Ian said:


> One BMP for Beekeepers that should be recommended is comb rotation. With all the Chem treatments Beekeepers rely on, exchanging the comb would help reduce that in house Chem exposure


wouldn't that also require that the manufactures of the wax to find some way to eliminate the chemicals that are still in it?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ian said:


> No, the MBA has not taken such action.
> That ONA pollinator protection plan was developed soely to implement restrictions of neonic use. Without the neonic campaign at hand, that hand book would not of been created .


It's important to note that this wasn't developed by the Ontario Beekeepers Association. The Pollinator Protection plan was developed by OMAFRA - Ontario Ministry of Agriculture and Food in conjunction with the ministry of the Environment. The OBA certainly lobbied for implementation of some sort of IPM protocol after softening from a demand for an outright ban.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I am confident this is done with best of intentions but I'm with Harry on this one. I do have one suggestion for the government on a BMP plan. Stop wasting my tax money by having a people have busy work and meetings and instead let me keep some of that money to spend on learning what works best in my apiary, having time to share it with others. 10 years ago IPM was the bomb, now it's not??????. Simplify my sales tax record keeping, state and local tax bookkeeping, and the ton of paperwork and time I have to spend on so many nights and weekends keeping track of every little thing we do. If we are going to have state inspections, great, let's inspect everyone because me taking care of my bees doesn't help when some guy with 3 hives full of Foul Brood and mites down the road who is doing a hands off beekeeping experiment infects my hives, the wild pollinator populations and other responsible beekeepers. I take care of my hives because if I don't, I, my sons family, my NYC manager, our market staff, our Value added products people, don't eat and live inside, so good beekeeping is My BMP every single day. Different from everyone else because with bees it is about every little thing. In short, between the various tax deparements, state inspections, DOT, FDA, USDA, Various state and local codes a ton of my time is wasted on e-mails, record keeping, letters, opening mail, online research about forms and filling out forms, all time that could be better spent in my bee yards. I guess simply, the best BMP would be for the Government to get off our back by finding a way to streamline any process we are required to complete and reduce the time and cost. So that would be my suggestion.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

wildbranch2007 said:


> wouldn't that also require that the manufactures of the wax to find some way to eliminate the chemicals that are still in it?


Take out the old comb, replace it with fresh comb. its a management practice that helps purge possible beekeeper applied chem build up within the brood nest treatment area.
The manufacturer could possibly also be included into this. I assumed they used cappings wax when coating plastic foundation. A suggested BMP would be to only use cappings wax for this process


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Ian said:


> Take out the old comb, replace it with fresh comb. its a management practice that helps purge possible beekeeper applied chem build up within the brood nest treatment area.
> The manufacturer could possibly also be included into this. I assumed they used cappings wax when coating plastic foundation. A suggested BMP would be to only use cappings wax for this process


Then, what becomes of all this removed and contaminated wax? I bet it gets turned into foundation and candles and cosmetics with some small amount of filtering and bleaching. Ya have to just love unintended consequences! LOL Yes, I understand that this is already done, you will just recycle and increase the original problem. Maybe we can set the old comb time limit to five years initially, then after a few years we can find out that the contaminants build up too fast so then we change the requirements to a four year rotation. Then a three and so on. The guys making foundation will love this!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Bees make new wax , most guys use plastic foundation 
This is not a cyclical issue


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Ian said:


> Bees make new wax , most guys use plastic foundation
> This is not a cyclical issue


Ian, if only it was that simple, life would be great.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Duncan151 said:


> Ian, if only it was that simple, life would be great.


I don't understand how this is a complicated strategy. It's like changing your underwear .


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Roland said:


> If we can make the assumption that the health of honeybees is a representative of the health of all pollinators;
> 
> And we can assume that native pollinators are difficult and expensive to monitor,
> 
> ...


Experts I have talked to say that what is good for honeybees is not necessarily good for native pollinators.

Gauging success, or even figuring out what success is is beyond me. We are having a good honey year here in NY this year. Must be because of all of that forage we planted? Oh, yeah, we didn't do that. Maybe it was all that rain we caused to fall. Oh, yeah, we didn't do that.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Probably has more to do with price and quality of the honey, rather than scarcity. We export honey. If someone here paid enough for it we wouldn't, would we? I hear of people with warehouses of honey waiting for the right price. And we import cheaper honey.
> I haven't heard a report lately, but I doubt that the per capita consumption has changed much, 1 lb per person annually.



From the Sept. 22 National Honey Report:
we have exported 3 million Kg. we have imported 109 million Kg. year to date.
that's export value $11 million, import value $378 million.
for all intents and purposes we import honey.
http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf

I also haven't seen a per capita consumption number but wouldn't be surprised if it is higher than 1lb/person/yr
and if not higher there are certainly more 'capita' and creative value added products containing honey to widen the gap
between domestic and imported honey consumption to give credence to "domestic production cannot keep pace with demand".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It is my understanding that the per capita consumption includes all the foods that honey is added to.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Yeah, now that you point that out, I agree.
My point was even with per capita consumption staying the same, the number of people has increased.
So more honey is being consumed and the additional honey is imported honey, and the gap widens.
The value added products that include honey are fairly new to the market place and likely not included in the consumption numbers yet.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Ian said:


> I don't understand how this is a complicated strategy. It's like changing your underwear .


Have you ever tried to write a regulation, or a procedure, for the good of someone else? I had to write a lot of different things while in the service, and sometimes no matter how hard you tried, and how much effort you put into it to make if logical, helpful and fool proof. People would mess it up in ways that you could not have imagined! LOL I think that too many government programs, regulations, BMP's, and such end up like that. Americans are very good at hitting the bulls eye on the wrong target, which rarely makes things better.
For the record, I have no problem with rotating out comb, but I think each beekeeper should make his own decision as to when and why to do that. If there is one really good reason to do it, word will get around, and beekeepers will do it because they understand the why of, instead of the regulation of it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I find that a certain amount of Winter Die Back is of benefit to me. That way the equipment that I need to make replacement splits and increase is right there where I need it. So my best management practice is to do the best I can to get as many hives through the Winter alive and then roll with the punches. I only want to run around 500 or 600 anyway.

I'm just a 500 hive hobby beekeeper compared to some of my friends. So what do I know?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Duncan151
Comb rotation is a good suggestion for BMP's. I'm not talking about regulation,


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

SQKCRK, per your post #25, please explain to me what the "experts" have to say about the needs of honeybees vs. all pollinators. 

I can not think of one insecticide that would benefit one group and harm the other.

I can not think of one way that adding forage would harm either group. It might not help one group, but harm to the other is doubtful.

I can not think of any way, now that we know that flowers can transmit pathogens, that controlling disease in honeybees is not helpful to native pollinators, and vise versa.

I reassert that rather than having government employees try to monitor native pollinator health, they just ask us how easy it is to keep bees alive, assuming due diligence controlling mites and disease, and corrected for weather effects.

Crazy as always, Roland


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

T O comeS


Ian said:


> Duncan151
> Comb rotation is a good suggestion for BMP's. I'm not talking about regulation,


Along with all the "doom & gloom", & good comments here, 
Just remember whatever is written down as "a good idea for voluntary compliance" can be adopted by any municipality, or state government as their ordinance. BOOM, now it is the law
( I hear the UN warming up the black helicopters to come get us : P. )
If you do not want it to become the law, please don't write it down. After all, what could possibly go wrong... CE


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Roland said:


> SQKCRK, per your post #25, please explain to me what the "experts" have to say about the needs of honeybees vs. all pollinators.
> 
> I can not think of one insecticide that would benefit one group and harm the other.
> 
> ...


Yeah, sorry, can't actually quote anyone on that. Just replying with something that was discussed at a Pollinator Workshop.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

tech.35058 said:


> T O comeS
> 
> Along with all the "doom & gloom", & good comments here,
> Just remember whatever is written down as "a good idea for voluntary compliance" can be adopted by any municipality, or state government as their ordinance. BOOM, now it is the law
> ...


Which is why I was uncomfortable, still am, about participating in the process. Especially knowing how anything that comes out of this Task Force in NY will be brought up to me the rest of my life by some people. "Why did you let that happen? How could you let that happen? Why didn't you do X?" On the personal level, potentially not good for me.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

tech.35058 said:


> T O comeS
> 
> Along with all the "doom & gloom", & good comments here,
> CE


The most pro active thing you can do Mark is not let all the recent media beekeeping hype control the tone of the meetings


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ian, I am afraid that since I am the President of the Empire State Honey Producers Association, Inc, NY State's statewide beekeeping organization things are not that simple. I will, to the best of my ability, put forward the point of view which the Board of Directors and Officers want me to put forward. I am not free to speak my mind if it varies from what is deemed ESHPA's point of view.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Oh I hear ya. 
Shake it up a bit, lol 
Like I mentioned earlier, I feel these task groups are struck out to deflect political issues, might as well get some leg out of it! 
Cheers to your work Mark! Help them suits focus on the right issues


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Watch your back Mark, but be aware that you will not be able to please everyone, so speak the truth and let the chips fall where they will.

Crazy Roland


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Roland said:


> Watch your back Mark, but be aware that you will not be able to please everyone, so speak the truth and let the chips fall where they will.
> 
> Crazy Roland


I would change the statement slightly.



> Watch your back Mark, but be aware that you will not be able to please ANYONE, so speak the truth and let the chips fall where they will.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I sit corrected.

Crazy Roland


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

an article about the goings on in Mass. with the pollination protection plan. really seems the same attack is being run in most states.



> But Tabit, Jessel and other Massachusetts beekeepers say they became more outspoken as they began to realize that supposedly bee-friendly bills went against their interests as guardians of bees.
> 
> County beekeeper associations across the state have organized hundreds of their members to send letters to state legislators opposing a bill introduced earlier this year by state Rep. Keiko Orrall, R-Lakeville, a participant in the Farm Bureau pollinator meetings. Orrall’s bill, entitled “An Act to Ensure Proper Stewardship of Honeybees by the Commonwealth,” would establish an advisory committee to evaluate the state’s beekeeping regulations and policies. Among other concerns, beekeepers oppose the makeup of the committee, a majority of whose members would not be beekeepers. In addition, the beekeepers that would serve on the committee would be chosen by the state.
> 
> The Worcester County Beekeepers Association argues in its statement against the bill that “farmers, who frequently apply pesticides that harm honeybees, should not be tasked with making laws that govern beekeeping and the apiary inspection process. ... This is a conflict of interest.”





> So Tabit’s interest was piqued when she heard earlier this year that the Massachusetts Farm Bureau Federation was working to draft the outline of a “pollinator stewardship plan” for the state. Responding to concerns about the loss of honeybees, which are vital to the pollination of many crops, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency last year gave states the task of coming up with individual plans for protecting bees and other pollinating insects.
> 
> But when Tabit and other beekeepers asked to attend the Farm Bureau’s invitation-only meetings on the Massachusetts plan, their interest was spurned. Tabit said she was told the group was “not ready” for her to participat


http://www.hillcountryobserver.com/2015news/dec2015bees.htm


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