# Dadant and horizontal hives



## mystang89 (Apr 23, 2018)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?343609-Horizontal-Hive-Styles-What-should-I-consider&highlight=horizontal+hives
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?343665-Single-Box-Hive&highlight=horizontal+hives
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?327565-Hive-designs-and-their-advantages-and-disadvantages&highlight=horizontal+hives
I read through half of that last one and couldn't go on any further. There was just too much of a wealth of information for my poor head to absorb. 

I have read a few threads concerning horizontal hives, Dadant hives and Langstroth hives. I currently own a Langstroth hive and have been trying to take care of bees for 3 years - quite unsuccessfully - but I have learned some things I like and don't like about design. I know that I don't like having to lift multiple boxes in order to check my hive. I don't want to have to take off 2 supers + 1 deep in order to check all my hive. I would much rather it be all in one spot which is why I like the idea of the horizontal hives and I'm also going to be using the frames from the Langstroth hives with whatever I decide to build this year.

I looked into the double deep horizontal hives but it seemed to be fairly labor intensive to get to the bottom frames as well. Not nearly as much as the Langstroth but with the box being tall enough to hold both the honey frames (on top) and the brood frames (underneath) it seemed like you had to reach fairly far over the side in order to get your brood frames. Along with that it also seemed as though taking the brood frames out meant trying to tilt them at an awkward angle in order to bypass the two bars which hold the honey frames up. Mainly it was having to reach so far down the box to get your brood that I don't like though. One of the pros for this system though appears to be that they winter well since its so deep.

I also looked at the single horizontal hive which really seemed like what I would like. You have all the brood right at the top so you don't have to destroy anything to inspect them. You have the honey on the outside edge. You don't have to take off all sorts of different boxes in order to see what you want. Sounds great until I read that they don't overwinter well in areas that have winters in the teens. There aren't too many days of our winter that hit those temps but it seems to happening more and more often in recent years. If I built this style of hive would insulating the inside walls of it with foam board, along with the bottom and the roof be enough to overwinter the bees successfully? 

That last link I posted got me thinking about the Dadant hive which seems nice as far as not having 2 brood chambers but don't you still have to take off the super boxes in order to reach where you want? And since those boxes are fairly larger than the Langstroth supers wouldn't that also mean they were much heavier than the Langstroth supers which I already don't care to cart around?

Thanks for reading and any responses are very much welcome.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I too looked into "double-deep" horizontals and quickly dumped the idea. 
This is neither here nor there - just more hassle with two levels of frames, while most the benefits of horizontal hive are botched. 
A true horizontal hive should have one level of frames/bars - end of story.

Let me confuse you more; read this too:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?341887-Horizontal-deep-hives&highlight=horizontal


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

But, honestly, for Charlestown, IN (USDA zone 6-7), just do a standard horizontal Lang setup and be done.
You, guys, don't really have to worry about serious winter down there. It is just not.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> I too looked into "double-deep" horizontals and quickly dumped the idea.
> This is neither here nor there - just more hassle with two levels of frames, while most the benefits of horizontal hive are botched.
> A true horizontal hive should have one level of frames/bars - end of story.


I'd agree with that - a double-decker Long Hive is just about as barmy as it gets. I still can't believe that some people are serious about working with such a configuration.

But you could try a different interpretation of "Double-Deep" thusly:









Which, when completed and fitted with a starter-strip look like this:









So - this kind of 'Double-Deep' effectively becomes a Layens frame - well, almost. 
LJ.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> So - this kind of 'Double-Deep' effectively becomes a Layens frame - well, almost.
> LJ.


LJ - Exactly!
I have plans to make such frames this season for my deep horizontals! 
As I was harvesting honey this winter (crush/strain), got lots of starter combs saved up. 
Starter combs should work for this design really well.


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## mystang89 (Apr 23, 2018)

GregV said:


> I too looked into "double-deep" horizontals and quickly dumped the idea.
> This is neither here nor there - just more hassle with two levels of frames, while most the benefits of horizontal hive are botched.
> A true horizontal hive should have one level of frames/bars - end of story.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I had actually read that one but didn't look at all the links that were shared, this one particularly caught my attention. http://www.beebehavior.com/modified_european_long_hive.php It talked about how well they were insulated and how they were built which was very helpful but then a google search brought up this link http://www.backyardbeekeeping.net/bee-hive-winter-preparation-northern-climes/ which says that they main killer of bees during the winter isn't necessarily the cold but the bees getting wet from the condensation inside the beehive then getting cold. Where's the fine line? How do you know you have enough ventilation? I saw on a few builds that the person installed ventilation screens in the top. How do you keep the bees from propolizing the screen to uselessness?

Which do you prefer, your Dadants or your Ukrainian frame horizontals and why? Also, from reading some of your other posts you mention you don't much care for having to lift heavy things because of problems. I've broken my back years ago and it hasn't let me forget yet so lifting the supers, whether that be for a Dadant or Langstroth or anything else really doesn't sound too appealing to me. Doesn't the set up you have in your pictures require a super?



GregV said:


> But, honestly, for Charlestown, IN (USDA zone 6-7), just do a standard horizontal Lang setup and be done.
> You, guys, don't really have to worry about serious winter down there. It is just not.


Last year the temps got down to the single digits for about 2 weeks straight which I realize is not even close to what Wisconsin and the northern states have to contend with but felt pretty nasty to me. Do you think the horizontal would hold up in that type of weather? This kinda goes into what Little_John was posting pics of but I've read that making the hive deeper allows the bees to stay warmer. Is there a way to turn the turn the deep frame 90 degrees sideways to where they are now longways vertically without loosing too much space in the box? I'm not knowledgeable on the proper dimensions for a bee hive other than 3/8" bee space. In another of your articles I see that you do this exact thing but you use mediums. What I have are 14deep frames like you use in the brood chamber (19 inches x 1-1/16 inches x 9-1/8 inches). If I put two of those together making 7 wide and deep frames would that make the hive too wide? Is there a reason why the Layens uses 2 mediums instead of two deeps? Or is it just as you've said, I can use a regular ol' horizontal hive, stuff my frames in there the way they are and not worry about the winters to come? I've read conflicting info saying the bees need more space and other saying less space. So many questions and confusion in my head! lol Glad you all are here.



little_john said:


> I'd agree with that - a double-decker Long Hive is just about as barmy as it gets. I still can't believe that some people are serious about working with such a configuration.
> 
> But you could try a different interpretation of "Double-Deep" thusly:
> 
> ...


Is there a way to reuse the foundation on my existing frames and "marry" the two foundations together without either starting to bow? I like that frame you've made.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Re: ventilation (especially during winter) - I'm gradually fitting OMFs (Open Mesh Floors aka SBBs) to all my hives as and when I can source the mesh, as the mesh I use is recycled from old fireguards, which turn up from time to time at Boot (Bring and Buy) Sales.

Fitting mesh floors to the bottom of a hive avoids the propolising you speak of, as well as allowing debris to fall through - whilst at the same time providing ventilation. If used with bottom entrances, there isn't the problem of a through-draught which would occur if OMFs were used with top entrances. I'm not saying that this is a perfect solution - but it works ok in practice at this location (which is extremely damp during winter, and can also be very windy at times).

To avoid condensation forming on the Crown Board (inner cover), simply place lots of insulation on top of it. This also helps to retain heat within the hive, although the bees provide their own insulation, and thus keep warm - where it counts the most - by clustering.

Although the hives being discussed here are 'fixed-volume' hives, their volume can be reduced at any time by the use of either partition (follower) boards, dummy frames, or suitably-built space-occupying boxes (e.g. cardboard boxes covered in thick plastic). Such measures are useful when installing small colonies, or for reducing cavity size for over-wintering - should this be considered desirable in harsh environments.

BTW - the Layens Hive is normally considered to be a fixed-volume Long Hive - but there are variations (just to further muddy the waters !).









LJ


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## mystang89 (Apr 23, 2018)

Thanks for that info. Is there a way you can post a picture of the mesh bottoms you're talking about? Is the bottom closed but there is deadspace covered by the mesh? Seems if the bottom was only mesh that it would be too open to everything from wind to other insects.

I like the top two designs on the variant of Layens but I don't really see the advantage to have that deadspace and then small honey frames vs having full frames to be filled with honey unless it's just showing that this is a possibility of you don't have any larger honey frames.

If I made it like that I wander if I would have to make it longer so i could put more honey frames in there to account for the amount of honey.

Does a partition board go all the way to the bottom of the hive so the bees can't go to the deadspace? If so how would this work with the mesh at the bottom?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

After some research I concluded I want to go with deep Ukrainian frame (why - enough said on that Deep hive thread)








On this recent photo, I drew up a typical early spring configuration for this hive in cold areas like WI.
Green - heavy honey frames (generally 1.5 inch/38mm frames for now; need to standardize the width to 1.25 inch/32mm).
Red - insulated follower boards.
Yellow - brood nest on 1.25 inch frames (32mm). Five frames at the moment (equal to 10 medium Lang frames).
Blue above the nest - blankets.

The nest is compressed to keep them tight and warm and quickly raise maximum brood amounts.
I imagine they will burn honey stores from the nest soon, if not already.
I know they are sitting on lots of brood now as the temperature above the frames is about 25C and steady last couple of weeks.
To get more honey/pollen, they will need to go around the follower boards as needed. 
This is a classic early spring configuration for horizontal hive/Dadant hive by Blynov (a classic Russian beekeeper 19th century).

Ventilation - a non-issue. 
There are two 1 inch round meshed holes in the opposite corners of the floor (opposite to the entrances). 
Nothing else.
The body roughly as deep as a double-deep Lang vertical.
The significant depth of this hive is enough to create air/moisture gradients to have the moisture dissipate just around the hive.
I am in Dave Cushman camp on this. 
Details are here:http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html

Ventilation in the hive above is chiefly through the bottom (but the attic is also ventilated and full of loose insulation as in a typical American home, as you can see).

I think the moisture problems have to do with mostly 1)*shallow *hives that do not allow for good air/moisture gradients where things just normally mix and dissipate and 2)poorly insulated hives (this one is obvious); if you don't insulate properly, you then have to ventilate to make up for it, then bees burn much more honey to compensate for the heat losses via excessive ventilation and on and on it goes. Bees in this hive hardly consumed any honey at all until now.

The hive pictured here is a heavy 20-framer in my backyard.
The frames go through the entire body as pictured.
5cm/2 inches of air space left between the frames bottoms and the hive bottom.

The attic is large enough to hold 
1)large amount of filtering-type insulation (e.g. fleece blankets); 
2)*OPTIONALLY* put in box of medium Lang frames perpendicular to the brood frames; 
3)keep tools and supplies. 
This is a stationary chest-hive so anything goes. 
Great work-table too for my orchard tools (grafting, what not) . 
Managed similar to a top bar hive (brood area/honey area) thanks to asymmetric entrances. 
During the main flow, I will open the closed entrance too so the directly go into the honey area (not through the nest).
Can be two colonies if I want to (e.g. larger colony and a nuc OR two medium colonies).


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

Answers to some of your questions are offered in post #11 of this recently started thread, where I link some material provided by Roland right here on bee source:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?343665-Single-Box-Hive
It seems relevant to your questions to me, anyway, and I didn't see your moniker posting there. Lots of other info, too.

Michael


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

mystang89 said:


> Thanks for that info. Is there a way you can post a picture of the mesh bottoms you're talking about?


I use them both with and without 'dead-space':
http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek03.htm
http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek12.htm
http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek17b.htm



> Is the bottom closed but there is deadspace covered by the mesh? Seems if the bottom was only mesh that it would be too open to everything from wind to other insects.


If the bees can't get through that mesh, neither can other insects of similar size. NB - we don't have SHB in Britain (at least, not yet ...)

In practice, wind isn't a problem. I thought it might be, but during this last winter we had two periods of Siberian weather: seriously sub-zero temperatures and heavy snow with gale-force winds behind it, which brought the country to a standstill. I took the opportunity to measure a hive temperature with and without the Open Mesh Floor sealed-off. The difference was just 1 deg Centigrade - hardly worth getting excited about. It would appear that the first few inches of comb inside the OMF act as some kind of wind baffle, to reduce it's impact.



> I like the top two designs on the variant of Layens but I don't really see the advantage to have that deadspace and then small honey frames vs having full frames to be filled with honey unless it's just showing that this is a possibility of you don't have any larger honey frames.


The 'Granary format' is the one I'm in the process of using - principally in order to 'bed and breakfast' brood combs of two different sizes from queen-rearing hives. The space-occupying boxes can easily be removed in order to run the hive in the Original way.



> If I made it like that I wander if I would have to make it longer so i could put more honey frames in there to account for the amount of honey.


You could always 'super' a Layens-style hive with shallow boxes - thus making it into something approaching a Dartington Hive - in order to take off the excess honey. Honey stored in the deeper brood frames could then be left for the colony's use.



> Does a partition board go all the way to the bottom of the hive so the bees can't go to the deadspace? If so how would this work with the mesh at the bottom?


Partition boards can be used in two very different ways. The first is to keep two colonies separate - for this purpose the Partition Board must be at least queen-tight, and preferably fully bee-tight. Which is difficult to achieve in a parallel-sided beehive. (Unless slots were cut into the hive wall for that purpose)
The second way applies here: the board is used to create a reduced 'thermal' space, and so only needs to fit really well at the top and sides. Indeed, a gap of 1 to 2 inches at the bottom is desirable, in order than any bees managing to squeeze their way through gaps (which tend to occur with home-made equipment) can then find their way back easily.

There are pictures of such divider boards (which I call 'thermal dividers') at:http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek15.htm In my experience, these work extremely well. All credit to Charles Dadant, who invented them.
'best
LJ


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## mystang89 (Apr 23, 2018)

Ok, I read through each and every article posted and I have or will forget most of it by 7:27AM (it's 7:26am) atm. Too much reading too early in the morning but I'd like to talk about what I do remember.



> On this recent photo, I drew up a typical early spring configuration for this hive in cold areas like WI.
> Green - heavy honey frames (generally 1.5 inch/38mm frames for now; need to standardize the width to 1.25 inch/32mm).
> Red - insulated follower boards.
> Yellow - brood nest on 1.25 inch frames (32mm). Five frames at the moment (equal to 10 medium Lang frames).
> Blue above the nest - blankets.


What are the insulated follower boards made out of, just a piece OSB plywood?
Is there a reason you use such loose material for the insulation at the top instead of a thick piece of foam board?
Do you know if there is a reason that brood frames are made to the specifications they are? For example: I will be putting two deep frames together which would come out to be around 18"x19". Is that too large of an area for the queen to lay or the bees to work? Would the bees just start storing the excess honey on those frames if they don't have enough brood to cover? Even with they frames that you have put together I believe they are about 12"x19". (Not exact measurements here, just rounding off atm).



> Ventilation - a non-issue.
> There are two 1 inch round meshed holes in the opposite corners of the floor (opposite to the entrances).
> Nothing else.
> The body roughly as deep as a double-deep Lang vertical.
> ...


I'm pretty much following Mr. Cushman on the ventilation thing but I do have a few questions. On you're setup you say that you have two 1" round mesh holes in the floor. How big of mesh do you use and I'm going to assume, going from little_johns post, that they aren't simply window screens. I do know that in the "old" days before AC was a main thing people had to build the house to accomplish the same thing as AC and so the doors or windows would be directly across from each other. This way when both windows or doors were open there would be a fresh breeze flowing in. Going a step further, wouldn't this same concept work with beehives? Since warm air rises you wouldn't have to worry about the cool air getting to the bees but it would also circulate the moist air out. In other words, if I put a hole on one end of the hive and another hole on the other, both meshed of course, wouldn't that create a draft that wouldn't hurt the bees - assuming the top was insulated? If that's the case should the sides also be insulated or would it be better to allow the sides to be cooler than the top so they end up accumulating any build up of water?

Also, on your beehive I notice there are 2 little holes in the middle towards the top. What are those there for?



> I use them both with and without 'dead-space':
> http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek03.htm
> http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek12.htm
> http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek17b.htm


Thank you. Those explained much to me and helped to put the picture in my head. I'm going back and forth between the way @GregV has his set up with the 2 holes or the entire bottom used as ventilation. Both the same concept but different applications.



> Partition boards can be used in two very different ways. The first is to keep two colonies separate - for this purpose the Partition Board must be at least queen-tight, and preferably fully bee-tight. Which is difficult to achieve in a parallel-sided beehive. (Unless slots were cut into the hive wall for that purpose)
> The second way applies here: the board is used to create a reduced 'thermal' space, and so only needs to fit really well at the top and sides. Indeed, a gap of 1 to 2 inches at the bottom is desirable, in order than any bees managing to squeeze their way through gaps (which tend to occur with home-made equipment) can then find their way back easily.
> 
> There are pictures of such divider boards (which I call 'thermal dividers') at:http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek15.htm In my experience, these work extremely well. All credit to Charles Dadant, who invented them.
> ...


I can see how those partition frames would be easier to get in and out since they "squeeze" in at the sides. I'm still a bit confused by why the bees don't start building onto the partition frames or if there is deadspace on the other side of the frame, why they don't start doing something there as well.

So much to think about with so little time. I'm supposed to be getting my nuc on 5/5 so I'm trying to scramble to get this made. I'd hate to put the bees back in the Langstroth hive and then disrupt everything they made by placing them in the hive I make. Quick question though. With these custom frames how would I get the bees and brood and honey into the Deep horizontal hive? Basically, how do I get everything off the 9x19 frames and onto the 18x19 frames lol? Eviction notice?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

The horizontal hive topic (should be - heritage hive, really; nothing really new here) is huge and I have been constantly researching myself for the last three years (since I took a plunge again, this is after 35 year break).



> What are the insulated follower boards made out of, just a piece OSB plywood?


The divider/follower boards:
- I do sandwiches with particle board outside/1 inch foam inside
- when no time/material - just even 1/2 inch plywood from salvaged kitchen cabinets works fine.

Anything works.
You can just even hang two thin boards side-by-side and have 1/2 inch air buffer between them - done.

All my follower boards have bees space gaps to have full access around/under them AND let air around and under them too.
The main point is - to block air from blowing around TOO freely but still allow it. 
So you create enough restriction to allow the bees control the climate inside the enclosure. 
Take home is - you want to be able to create "hive-inside-hive" configurations. 

To divide the hive into isolated partitions, I have pre-cut grooves and take 1/4 inch hard plastic or plywood.



> Is there a reason you use such loose material for the insulation at the top instead of a thick piece of foam board?


Whatever material I can get free - I use it. 
I don't buy stuff. I recycle stuff.
Hence the loose insulation (all bunch of fleece blankets are laying around AND lots of coconut fiber mats came along).
So in general, I use lots of filtering insulation on the top and use locking top bars to create solid ceiling for the bees (they just glue it as they see fit).



> I will be putting two deep frames together which would come out to be around 18"x19".


Not large at all; this is the Lazutin frame size.
Given the space, bees will do exactly what works for them best regarding brood/space placement. 
Why worry too much. Deep horizontals are very, very flexible.



> How big of mesh do you use


I recycle screen doors/storm doors. 
People toss them - I use them.
The mesh is fine enough to keep mosquitoes out (whatever the size).
Bees do not propolise the hive floor openings (again, the frames are tall already and two inches of additional air below the frames).
The loose trash I just sweep away. 

But again, think out of the box and forget the industrial conventions ....  
Anything we talk here goes completely against typical industrial teachings. So forget them. 
I provided few pictures already how you can turn frames perpendicular to each other using hanging brackets. 
Don't feel like repeating myself at the moment.


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## mystang89 (Apr 23, 2018)

I like the way you think @GregV. Outside the box and recycling is something I can do, I just don't want to go from "outside the box" to a completely different world. I raise sheep and sheer them so I have lots of wool that is good for insulation. I wander if there is a way to sandwich the wool on the sides and top. After that I can put a hole or 2 on the bottom. Thanks for talking me through this. I'm sure I'll have more questions but I think I at least have a muddy picture in my head of what I need to go with.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I'll be darn! 
Wool is the best!
I wish I had access to some - nada. 

Outside the box - you will notice I intentionally stay compatible to the existing Lang world due to practical considerations.
So - no, not the completely different world. 

TB hives are completely different world and I chose not to go there (why create unnecessary problems one does not need).


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## mystang89 (Apr 23, 2018)

Well, if you're ever down in my neck of the woods I've got over 4 bags of it just laying around, free to good home lol.

I was doing some more reading and saw that you started out with 16 frames here http://forum.tfbees.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=890 but that later on you wanted to try 14 frames here http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?341887-Horizontal-deep-hives&highlight=horizontal. Did you ever get the 14 framers built and if so how do you think they did compared to the 16 frames?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Did not get to the 14-framers yet - no time.
Carrying the design in my head.
Main objective - better portability when alone. 
But also due to lots of dead-outs I have lots of empty hives standing now and so new hive construction is less pressing.

The priority for now - I want more vertical, free-standing traps built and deployed. 
Later in season, will build my first 14-framer.


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## mystang89 (Apr 23, 2018)

Not sure how well this might work in your situation but have you thought of wheels on the bottom?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Wheels... you know, this never occurred to me.
The idea of legs/stand is so ingrained in the brain - hard to get rid of it.

But for a stationary backyard chest-hive, I can totally see it on wheel-based platform.
Say, just move it out of the way when I am pruning my apple trees. 
Yep - the idea of beehive-stand on wheels actually should work well (not the hive itself, but a platform rather).
What a great thinking! 
Need to remember this one.


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## mystang89 (Apr 23, 2018)

GregV said:


> Wheels... you know, this never occurred to me.
> The idea of legs/stand is so ingrained in the brain - hard to get rid of it.
> 
> But for a stationary backyard chest-hive, I can totally see it on wheel-based platform.
> ...


If I was able to give you a good idea I'd be grateful. 

If you do end up putting wheels on it I would go with something like this https://www.ebay.com/i/273125823250?chn=ps. Of course I certainly wouldn't buy those but something with the same size simply because it might lesson the jerking over uneven ground and simply make it easier in the long run. Plus something like that would be less likely to break off if the tire did end up getting caught on a tough bump.


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## rinkevichjm (Feb 14, 2018)

Have you looked at the rear accessed AŽ bee hives? They are often kept together in a bee house. There are two American hive makers who have Langstroth type frames with standard deep foundations.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Not sure who you asking..
But anyway, AZ hives are really a different subject. 
They have nothing to do with Dadant and horizontal hives.

First - if you look into AZ hives, must have a structure anyway so that you can work the bees while being inside. 
If you do have such structure (or want to build one), then the next question is - how to manage the bees while being "indoors".
So the AZ hive design comes in (the frame size is less relevant - pick you own size).

I have seen videos of AZ design hives just standing outside - I wonder what is the point of those. 
I see none.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

The only *slight* advantage may be that they don't use hanging frames - but you're quite right, the A-Z (or Hinterbehandungsbeute Hives as they're called by Germans - who appear to be claiming the invention as their's, rather than the Slovenians) are *fixed-volume vertical hives*, not Dadant or horizontal hives.

Greg - interesting that you've seen stand-alone A-Z hives too - when I mentioned this a while back (I forget on which forum), I was shouted down that such things don't exist - and that they're only ever found in bee-houses.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

LJ, 

For sure I have seen stand-alone A-Z hives.
They came up incidentally while I was googling on something else.
I tried searching just now - no quick hits at the moment.
But for sure they exist as I have seen images.

People do fail to think of the original intent of the A-Z hives and start creating some.... donno... curious, mutant hives just for the sake of curiosity, I suppose.

Stand-alone, external hives are, indeed, more convenient to work through the top. 
But even internal hives are often worked through the top. 
It works just as well with one-level of hives placed internally.
Here is just one example: https://chelifer.de/straw-bee-hive-frames/


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## mystang89 (Apr 23, 2018)

I finally finished building the bee hive. It's much the same as yours GregV. It holds 16 langstroth frames doubled up and turned 90 degrees so they are going vertically. There were many mistakes made and it looks like a mad man put it together but I did my best. I'd post a picture but the site doesn't seem to want me to right now. It's basically a double frame. I built one box and then placed wool on the outside of that box. I then build a second larger box over the smaller one sealing the wool inside. The top is just a simple removable top with a 1" foamboard insulation in it. I wanted hinged but couldn't figure out how to do that without there being a gap in the top where the hinge is.

I have a question though. I'm supposed to get my bees tomorrow which are coming in a standard nuc. How do I transfer thoes bees into this hive? Yes, the frames will fit still, even horizontal, but how can I get the bees, brood, honey and everything else to be transfer to my frames? If I simply place the frames in my box I'm afraid they will start to make comb downward because of all the extra room. Any thoughts?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mystang89 said:


> I finally finished building the bee hive.....................
> I have a question though. I'm supposed to get my bees tomorrow which are coming in a standard nuc. How do I transfer thoes bees into this hive? Yes, the frames will fit still, even horizontal, but how can I get the bees, brood, honey and everything else to be transfer to my frames? If I simply place the frames in my box I'm afraid they will start to make comb downward because of all the extra room. Any thoughts?


Good to hear. Let us see it!

Your question: 
here how I transferred Land deep frames (turned vertically) from one of my narrow and tall traps last summer into a typical large frame hive (see pics).




















(Yes, I know - why the hassle? Well, I got this nice trap for free and it caught me bees and works for me)

those frames in my traps already have ears pre-cut, as you can see;
you can do the same in place (bees and all) - figure out how do use large garden loppers - they bite the ears off like nothing.
(NO saw is preferred - will shake the bees off and stuff - but I have done it too);
Be best to do it with a helper (one holds frame; the other works it), but hey - I routinely work alone and get away many crazy things.

All the manipulations I would do directly in your new hive - it is large very conveniently, and you can turn and work frames inside as needed.
If the bees and even the queen fall off - who cares (they are in the hive already).

I have many top bars of my sizing prepared before hand - you should do the same, with the screws in them and ready to go.
I screw the prepared bars into the trap frame top bar (thus making the top bar longer);
the migrated frames WILL be too narrow for your hive - not a problem and who cares; I do this routinely.
You will just gradually move too-narrow frames out of the nest and then out of the hive (just like in a typical TBH comb moves - same exact ideas are applied here).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is a good video from Uzbekistan.
Horizontal Dadants.
Just jump to minute 21:00 and watch.
Usage of spacers between the frames makes the similar to top bars (solid ceilings).
They also use cotton rags, I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZlHPt5pppI&t=1052s


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## mystang89 (Apr 23, 2018)

Here are the pictures I said I'd upload. There are quite a few things I'd do differently next time I make one. This one was more of a prototype. I forgot to cut a place for the bees to actually go into the hive before screwing the hive together so I had to cut through 3 pieces of plywood + the wool in order to get the holes made. My genius of an 8 y/o daughter mentioned the fact that I might want to do that before putting everything together next time.....Thanks Captain Obvious. After that my wife came out and asked how the bees were going to get to the frames. I said through the holes I made. She then pointed out there wasn't any Bee space AROUND the frames. The frames were snug up against the walls of the hive. I wasn't going to tear the whole thing down at this point so I trimmed the frames down to where there was about 3/8 in on each side. About. Then she asked about the bottom and I noticed the frames touched the bottom....Yeah, just a few things I'd do differently next time lol. I went ahead and just put a 1/2 x 1/2 piece on top of the hive and put the frames on top of that.

After getting everything together where it was supposed to be I started putting the frames from the nuc together and remembered that the 2 frames put together from the nuc would be the exact same size as the box and fit nice and snuggly. Remember the "don't take a saw or anything that vibrates too much"? Yeah, out came the circular saw. Many bees were angered/killed this day. Oh, and apparently saw dust isn't good for bees. Dries them out or something....Then I drop one of the frames I was working on, face first, in my box. Too much yet? Anyone still reading or will I be visited by PETA?

Anyway, to continue, I did see the queen! This was before the sawing started so I'm not sure she survived. Also, I noticed after putting a bath towel over the top of the frames and the foam board insulation along with the top of the actual hive that the bees are able to get into the hive from the top. It's apparently not snug enough so they can make it under. I figure if the bees can then so can other insects. I'll be taking a few pieces of 1/2 x 1/2 and screwing them directly under the roof of the hive so that the roof sits on top of it. Hopefully that will stop anything from getting through the top?







Above is the wool before putting the outer frame on it.







The saw with the nuc frames.







The nuc came with 4 frames which makes 2 frames for my hive. I put an additional 2 in there as well, one on each side.







What is that? It came with the nucs.

That last pic is with the towel.


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## mystang89 (Apr 23, 2018)

I could only post 5 pics per post so here's the rest.








That is the foam board insulation.









This is the final product. Kinda embarrassing to be honest but it was the best I could do in one days time. Hopefully the bees don't hold it against me for too long.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Dude!
Was some fine reading! 

But hey, I am on the opposite spectrum of this so much so to be constantly in "analysis paralysis" state of mind.
So it took me to build my first hive about 1-2 weeks(???).





















Good thing was I had no bees waiting outside while building this rig.
I have since modified it twice already (between the bees in it).

I noticed you went really big for the true Lazutin size (two Lang deep frames).
I only went for the Ukrainian/Dadant size (two Lang medium frames) - this is for easier hive portability since I have a tiny backyard.
IF mobility was not important, heck, I might too do the double-deep Lang frame.

Regarding insects/bees getting through the holes - since I have a fortune of screen doors saved up, I use that door screen any place where in doubt. Works well. 
The main thing to not allow foreign robber-bees through the back-door - if they can, they will get inside.


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