# 1st Queen cells in Starter/Finisher



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

From the look of them, you could probably add more bees to the Cell Builder. I think a package is approaching its minimum population at 4 weeks. I prefer to newspaper combine a package or a swarm to a strong colony for the cell builder, then import 8 to 10 frames of capped brood. Bees should be *BOILING OVER THE TOP OF THE HIVE* when you open it, thouroghly over-fed with REAL POLLEN, a patty, and 1:1 syrup, and HOPELESSLY QUEENLESS.

Good that you got some takes, though. Hope there are a few winners in there.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Nope, from my experience these will turn into the dinky
queens later on. An acceptable cell will be filled with lots of
RJ extending the cell pass the 1.5" minimum mark. Cells like
these I will not keep. Yes, the builder need more bees for sure.


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## yem (Jan 19, 2010)

I will keep yall posted on this round. Just added another frame of sealed brood.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

1.5" from what? The edge of the jzbz cup, the length of just the wax cell, length from the cell bar?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

From the end of the cell cup all the way
to the end of the capped cell tip. Some cells are
a bit fatter while some are a bit narrower. The
fatter cells will hold more RJ. But it also depends on
the number of nurse bees feeding the developing larvae before
they are being cap. Somehow the bees know whether or not the queen
will be a dinky one or a big fat well fed one. So they cap
the length accordingly in a normal hive environment.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

beepro said:


> From the end of the cell cup all the way
> to the end of the capped cell tip. Some cells are
> a bit fatter while some are a bit narrower. The
> fatter cells will hold more RJ. But it also depends on
> ...


I don't buy this. I've had very large queens come from dinky looking cells.

Allen Dick posted (here or on bee l) that the length of the cell is determined by the number of bees available to do the capping...a separate operation from the feeding (which can be seen as plentiful with a plastic cell cup even I'm a dinky cell).

Uniformly long cells is an indication that they were raised by lots of bees (which is a good thing), but not as important as the feeding.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Deknow- How about take out a gram scale, weigh the virgins then weigh your spent cell. Then you could post the data


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I can do that next time it happens. Who had data to compare to?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Then weigh them again a week later when they have trimmed down to their flying weight. I have seen huge virgins emerge from small cells for whatever that's worth. The only two things I concern myself much about in quality queen cells are full cups at 48 hours and cell uniformity. After that comes the really important part in determining queen quality and that is mating conditions and how many drones are available.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

deknow said:


> I can do that next time it happens. Who had data to compare to?


You must produce enough queens each year to make your own data set?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, the initial feeding is very important to the
later stage of the cap larva. I'm talking about the naturally built
cell not the plastic one we use that restricted the bottom end. 
There are exception to the 1.5" observation because a recent dinky queen that I
have turn out to be a big fat one after mating. Good
laying pattern and is a keeper. Remember that other than
the length the width or bottom size will also determine a
good well fed queen or not. The plastic cup will restrict
this bottom width while the natural size built by the bees will
have a wider bottom to hold more RJ. In the end whether or not
she will be a good queen is determined by the amount and quality of
the RJ being feed to her by the number of the nurse bees caring for
the individual cell.


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## yem (Jan 19, 2010)

Well out of the 10 finished cells 9 emerged...one I broke open opps! 4 of the virgins were small for sure...no smaller than the 4 year old queen mother they came from...one was rather large and the rest I would consider average. I did put in more emerging brood and started 10 more grafts but the first night in the starter/finisher it got down to the low 40s and with the screened bottom board they did not take to the bottom cell bar, so they only took 3 on the top cell bar but let me tell you that those 3 are quite a bit larger than the last run. The new 3 are sealed and will go in nucs Thurs. I put in some eggs and larva to stimulate brood rearing and will add more grafts on Thursday as well. Here is a link to the 3 cells one covered in bees 
https://www.facebook.com/1621953738...195373827456/1051657491547902/?type=3&theater


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Looks like an improvement over the first batch. What was your setup?


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## yem (Jan 19, 2010)

Six frame deep nuc, 1 honey,1 pollen 2 frames emerging brood, graft frame , caged cells on the outside frame. I have a screened bottom board also which is closed now till it warms back up. I added a frame of eggs and larva Monday for the next batch, that went in Thursday, to get them making royal jelly. Checked last night and the 3rd round is 5 for 8. Not bad considering I was grafting in the rain Thursday night.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm wondering if it is the usual first batch blues, then business as usual after they are in queen rearing mode, or if you juiced the starter / finisher with more bees and it's helping?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I wonder if the open or closed SBB makes a difference also, the darker the environment the better is what I'm thinking.


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## yem (Jan 19, 2010)

The bottom board is still closed...the 3rd batch is now 4 really nice sized cells. I think it may be due to adding eggs 4-5 days before adding grafts. I will cage the cells tonight and add eggs. Then Sunday or Monday take out the eggs now larva and the give them my gragts along with some emerging brood. I am not getting alot of queen cells but the last two batches have been nice sized now. I will be checking on the smaller first round queens this weekend as well to see their progress.....the weather has not been the best for mating flights but there have been a few good days.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes, I agree that could be at least part of it. I've stated in the past to put in a frame of eggs or younger larva a few days before adding the grafts, removing the added frame of eggs/larva at that time. It seems to get the bees primed with royal jelly so they are already in the mood when adding the grafts.


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