# Starter Colony Arrangement



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've tried a few variations. Some of them worked. All were more work than just pulling the queen. Most of the queenright systems involve a queenless starter, either by using a FWOF (Cloake board) or by using a "swarm box" or "starter":

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#The%20Starter%20Hive

Marla Spivak's method is basically a rotational system on the finisher. The queen is below the excluder and the boxes are rotated every seven days so that the queen stays below the excluder, the open brood is in the next box up and the emerging brood is in the top box. The nurse bees are easily shaken out of the middle box because the nurse bees are feeding the open brood and these are used in the starter box. After the cells are started they are put in the box with the open brood where the nurse bees are.

The cloake board method is similar but you shake a lot of bees in the top box for the starter and put it on top of the closed cloake board and then open the cloake board after the cells are started.

Both of these seem to work well.

When I tried just putting queen cells above the excluder with some open brood but no cloake board and no method of both concentrating the bees and of making the starter queenless, I never had much luck. They would start some queen cells but not nearly as many.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I never had much luck

Thats what I had thought, 
it would seem thier attention wouldnt be as focused as we would need them to be.

I guess the method I use now is called the "Cloade board" method. Works good, 

Do you have any idea what the Adee method is all about? Perhaps it sound much like the Marla Spivak method your mentioning.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you have any idea what the Adee method is all about? 

No, I don't.


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

The Adee method follows the system discribed on the Ohio Queen Breeders web site(3 high). This is a queen right starter system and has worked well for me depending on the time of year. I normally use a queenright starter during the normal season(2 high). It works well for me. Average season start is 85%.
You have to use different systems depending on the time of year or what is happening in your hives.
I have not visited Ohio Queen Breeders site lately and do not know if they are still on the web.
Frank Wyatt


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The Adee method follows the system discribed on the Ohio Queen Breeders web site

The one they used to have on Ohio Queen Breeders site, they put some kind of bottom board between the starter (on top) and the bottom where the queen was. The end result was basically the same as a cloake board. Is that what the Adee method is?


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## Jon McFadden (Mar 26, 2005)

Here is a spreadsheet integrating the Nicot and Cloake Board Systems
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/beekeeping/files/Nicot%20Queen%20Rearing/


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Frank Wyatt 

Im still not quite clear on this,

Is the Ohio Queen Breeders system, and the one you employ, involve placing cells in between young brood frames in the second, while confining the queen below with an excluder in the first? Otherwords, are you starting the cells in a queen present state?


Thanks Jon, but I cant seem to get your link


Perhaps the terminology is confusing me. 
Right now, the system that I am using was discribed to me as a queen right starter/finisher. Yet I started the cells in a queenless state, on top, to be reintroduced to the colony after 24 or 36 hours. Pritty much discribed like the "cloke board" system


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## Jon McFadden (Mar 26, 2005)

Hi Ian,
I have pictures of the Cloake Board which separates the two boxes; queen below and cells above when doing the queenless part. It's in a thread called "Cell Door"
http://nordykebeefarm.com/forum/default.asp 
You may need to join the Beekeeping Group to get access to the file area where the spreadsheet is posted.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/beekeeping/ 
Good Luck,
Jon

[ February 25, 2007, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Jon McFadden ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Basically the Ohio Queen Breeders method goes something like this:

Day -1 Set up top box with: Nectar- Brood- Brood- Pollen- Eggs- Cell Bar- Eggs- Pollen- Brood- Nectar. Confine the breeder queen in the top box and cell cups brood, division board feeder, pollen and honey, over an excluder. Put all remaining brood and pollen in the bottom box. Put everything else in the middle. CONCEPT: This is so that we have some open brood and lots of food for the cell raisers in the top box. Also the cell cups will get the smell of the hive and be polished by the bees.

Day 0 Confine the breeder queen. Feed. CONCEPT: This is so that the queen will lay in the cell cups and we will know the age of the eggs/larvae.

Day 1 Release queen. Feed CONCEPT: We are done with the queen laying and we know the age of the eggs.

Day 2 Set up Cell Starter/Cell Builder: Take the queen out of the top box and cage her. Put the top box on top of the inner cover (with a screen over the hole). Shake all bees from all the other boxes into the top box. If you dont think they will all fit, start with the brood frames and then add the rest until you cant get the lid on for all the bees piled up on the box. Put bottom box (as set up above) on the bottom board and release the queen there. Add an excluder on top of this and the middle boxes on top of that. Put a cover on that and a bottom board (or a cloake board) for the Cell starter. Put top box (with all shaken bees) on top of the bottom board and the inner cover on top of that. Feed. The field bees will fly out and return to the bottom part of the hive. The nurse bees will remain in the top, cell building box. CONCEPT: The object here is to make the top box into a queenless cell builder. Since they are queenless they will want to build queen cells. The bees are shaken into it to make both an overcrowded condition, which is a stimulus to swarm, and so that there will be an excess of nurse bees that can feed the queens. The queen is in the bottom box, so the top is queenless and we will be able to remove it without disturbing the bees much. This is the step that has failed most often for me. It is REALLY critical that the cell builder box be queenless AND overcrowded with nurse bees.

Day 4	Transfer larvae to cell cups with preference to those that are already started as queen cells and place in Cell starter. Feed nuc and cell starter. CONCEPT: The larvae are now the right age to transfer and the bees are now queenless enough to raise queens. We put them in the cups to convert them to queen cells. We feed so that the queens will be fed well.

Day 6	See if queen cups are started. Feed. CONCEPT: By now the bees should have started all of the cells they intend to. If you want a queenright cell finisher, then remove the cover to the bottom box and the bottom board of the top box to reunite the hive. (You could also do this with a Cloake board or a FWOF, Floor With Out a Floor. The theory is that a queenright colony does a better job raising queens than when they are raising emergency queens.)

The rest is the same timing as any system.


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

Ian,
I modified the Ohio System and did not install the inner cover and bottom board under the top or third box. I put the queen with capped cells in the bottom box, installed misc. frames with honey etc in the middle box and set up the top box as a full starter with pollen frames, young and open celled larva in this top box. I slid the graphed frames into the space between the young larva and the pollen frames to start my cells. I did install a queen excluder between the 2nd & 3rd box. The distance from the queen in the bottom box reduces the amount of Queen substance present and resembles a queenless state for the young workers that move up into the top box to tend the larva.With a "strong" starter you can get at times 90+% cells started. The three boxes and continual shifting of the cells help to control the overpopulation that can occur sometimes in starters. It also helps when a honey flow is on by having someplace for the bees to put nectar.
Frank Wyatt


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks Michael,
Sound like the mothod I employ currently.
Sure involves alot of prep work, but works even for small timers like me. Kind of what I should be focusing my attention towards, you know, dont fix it if its working









But still,

Frank, this is the first I have heard of this kind of system. It really interests me.
Granted the hive has to be well populated, during a good flow, but then what system doesnt have to be,

How many cells do you send through your starter arrangement at a given time, and through out a noraml builder schedule?

Do you use builders along side this starter arrangement? 

Do you find you have to continually rebuild/or boost the starter colony weekly?

Thanks


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

Ian,
I like to use the 3 deeps during our spring nectar flow which is tulip poplar.
Usually I scale back to 2 deeps after the flow. I will use one ten frame with internal feeder (on the bottom) and one 8 frame to start the cells over a queen excluder. Its easy to keep the queen in the bottom and move young larva into the 2nd story. 
Normally on both systems I will only start a max of 90 cells per hive. I could start more, but I would rather have an over abundance of bees wanting to feed the young larva than additional cells that may have been marginally fed.
Early season or late season, I start the cells in a swarm box and dump the bees back into the hives I have borrowed them from.
I always provide each starter with a pollen patty when starting cells. I use Global Patties with 4% pollen added.

Frank Wyatt
Eden, NC

[ February 26, 2007, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: WG Bee Farm ]


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Whats the que for deciding to go from the swarm box, to a mear excluder to draw cells in the starter?

Sound like your rearing queens early, mid and late season. How many queens do you produce in a season?


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

The clue I use for starting cells are drones in the hive.I already have drones in 70% of my hives. This comes from feeding Global Patties back January 1st and keeping a check on them for stores and pollen stored in the cells. Until the hive begins to store pollen they are consuming all that is brought in and have no additional to rear drones.
I use a swarm box in the early spring (for my own queens0. What with the fluctuation of daytime and night time temps. the use of a standard starter hive can result in the existing workers clustering away from the cells you are trying to start and the loss of heat kills the larva that you have grafted. Night time temps. in the 50's are easy for the hive to maintain temps. I don't even remove my entrance reducers until usually May.(night time temps 60+)
Frank


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Up here things progress real quick. Im guessing alot quicker than what your use to.
There is no early season queen rearing here, we have winter, sometimes a spring, and then full out summer, boom!
I time my queen to give the drones at least a week to mature, but it rushes thing sometimes, having subsequent grafts usually better.

I think I am going to experiment with this on my second or third graft. Perhaps I could incorporate this into my nucing schedule.

Thanks for the help.
Im going to post back here next season and discribe my experiences on it.

Anyother and all thoughts are welcome,

Chow

[ February 27, 2007, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Ian ]


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## Scott J. (Feb 6, 2007)

A question about drones, how long after they emerge are they ready to mate with a queen?
Anyone have experiance in Western Washington raising queens?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I always figure to give them at least a good week, they have to mature their sex organs, and on that I'm talking the general drone population. There are going to be some earlier emerged, so even if 1 week is too soon, your subsequent grafts should be right on the money.


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