# An alternative to a smoker



## Jack London (Jan 2, 2013)

Anyone ever tried spraying the bees with sugar solution instead of using a smoker?

If so, has it worked okay? Any problems? 

Thanks!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Spraying them keeps them from flying, but smoking them actually keeps them calm - on account of it interferes with their ability to spread the alarm via pheromones. Different tools for different purposes.


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## clumsy red bear (Jun 15, 2012)

Last year for most of my first year I did not have a smoker and used a 1:3 mix syrup with several drops of lemongrass and spearmint oil, enough to make it have a pretty strong smell. I did not really soak them down with it, just sprayed some on the inside walls. They seemed to enjoy the spray buffet and pretty much ignored me, even in the fall. Not a hot hive anyway, though. A friend gave me a smoker but I can't seem to keep it lit so will probably still use the spray sometimes hehe...


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

There's a reason beekeepers have been using smoke for thousands of years. As David said, smoke works differently than spritzing them with sugar water. While I'm often able to go through my colonies without smoke, I always keep the lit smoker handy. There will come a time when your bees are hot, or you're in the hive longer than they like, or you drop a frame of bees and you'll want smoke.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Know your bees.
I have feral survivors, if I pull frames I use smoke gloves and veil.
If I put feed above the inner cover no smoke.

I have heard of people that have very gentle bees no gloves or veil, they may use smoke. I bet they could get away with just sugar water spay.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How do you handle the frames w/out getting your hands or gloves sticky, if you spray them w/ syrup?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Why do I need an alternative? I've tried the alternatives. I use smoke. It has been the standard method of calming bees for the last 10,000 years for a good reason... it works.


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## KMP (Feb 21, 2013)

Why? I can think of one reason... the smoke. ;-) (Especially bad if you're a non-smoker.)

BTW, I trick I learned for lighting and keeping a smoker lit: Use a piece of broom stick or something similar that's handy and wrap a small piece of parchment paper around it (e.g. baking paper) to make a tube. Place this in the center of the can, add fuel (more than you think), then remove broom stick and light smoker. 

Worked for me; your mileage may vary.

-K


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## Jack London (Jan 2, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> Why do I need an alternative? I've tried the alternatives. I use smoke. It has been the standard method of calming bees for the last 10,000 years for a good reason... it works.



You may not need an alternative, Michael Bush. But I was just asking out of mere curiosity. 

Funny thing - standards and beekeeping. The standard hive design for thousands of years never involved moveable frames. But if you try telling that to certain beekeepers, they will rip you a new one!


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## slturner55555 (Jan 26, 2013)

Hi. I am a very new to bees. I too have been asking around about spraying vs. smoking. On Biobees.com, the group I asked advised having a smoker handy just in case needed. They also advised using water with a few drops of peppermint extract. I hope this helps.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've never been against trying new things and I have tried water, sugar water, liquid smoke, HBH in light syrup etc... nothing works as well as smoke.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

A detail you need to ponder, Misting syrup only gets the bees "on top" so lots of bees don't get misted. Smoke fills the hive and triggers a reaction.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Jack

Once you deal with a hive that has Africanized genetics you will understand why you use smoke and everything else is inferior. 

However I have been in my colonies without veil gloves and only lit smoker more than once. Its fun but I sure like a lit smoker ready when I need it.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Why do I need an alternative?


If you keep bees out in the bush, in an area where use of smokers is banned, that would be a perfectly good reason to find an alternative. Dont know about your part of the world, but, around here when the bees go out to logging patches for the fireweed flow, in most years smokers are banned due to the high forest fire hazard.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Really? How does that work? Does some Agency really regulate what beekeepers do out in the bush? This is something I have no knowledge or experience with.


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## buzzzz (Mar 7, 2013)

Honey B Healthy works good to keep bees calm. The bees love the smell of the essential oils and its also good for them. Use as instructed on bottle.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You know if there Really Was an alternative that wasn't smoke - and didn't stink up your clothes -but worked just like smoke, That would be great. On those impulse inspections you weren't really planning - or you already have on your goin' to meetin' duds and have a few minutes to kill. I'd keep a can of that in the bee yard right along with my 4th best hive tool and ratty old veil. As far as I know it doesn't really exist though. Does it?


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

indypartridge said:


> -snip- As David said, smoke works differently than spritzing them with sugar water -snip-- I always keep the lit smoker handy. There will come a time when your bees are hot, or you're in the hive longer than they like, or you drop a frame of bees and you'll want smoke.





Jack London said:


> You may not need an alternative, Michael Bush. But I was just asking out of mere curiosity -snip-


Welcome to the forum John. We have all learned not to believe everything we see on youtube, or read in a book with narrow views  

The perceived hostility on this question may come from the (serious) questions that are asked on the forum over and over again. Don't take it personally. 

Personally, I will tell you that smoke is a good idea, even if it just sits there upwind of the hive you are working. It interferes with the alarm pheremones and I don't see where sugar water sprays can do that, so, in my view, smoke causes less stress to the colony.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

An alternative to smoke is angry, stressed bees that might not sting you if you are wearing a veil and gloves, but are prone to stinging others nearby.

I'm much more prone to listen to someone comparing smoke to an alternative if they have experience using a smoker. If you haven't mastered the art of keeping a smoker lit and the art of using it appropriately, you will be well served to practice both. I don't really buy the excuse that anyone can't keep a smoker lit....it's a smoker, and anyone can learn to keep one lit. 

Finding a queen can be difficult, lifting a full box can be difficult, being nervous around bees isn't something you can always have control over....but if you can't see eggs, get some appropriate magnification/lighting so that you can. If you can't keep a smoker lit, practice when you aren't working with bees...and ask questions if you are having specific problems. Unless you have a phobia surrounding fire and smoke, saying you can't keep one lit means that you simply haven't spent the time...using that as a reason to not use a smoker is a copout.

deknow


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I have only used smoke but an advantage I can see is that the bees can get right back to working when the smoke dissipates and you can smoke in and around the hives without knocking bees to the ground with syrup. With the short flows here I like to disturb them as little as possible. I am sort of being redundant with what Lee said. Less strees to the colony. The smoke just subdues them and they get right back to business it seems.

I made innercovers that I can feed through screens so that eliminates the need to smoke them much when switching feeders in an out. I plan to make more of them. They are very helpful with speed of changing feeders and disturb the bees less.

I like that you are thinking outside the box. I can feed and work on hives at some points in the season with no smoke but at a certain point the bees remind me that I need to be smoking them so they don't over react.

Good Luck!!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why do those "thinking outside the box", who haven't learned how to keep bees in the conventional manner, get their feelings hurt on line when experienced and knowledgeable beekeepers explain why something won't work or won't work as well? It's an insult to my culture to want to change things before you are assimilated into my culture. Reminds me of Good Yankees and **** Yankees. Good Yankees don't try to change things and go home. **** Yankees stay and try to tell folks to change.

But, keep on thinking and asking. And don't take it personal when someone says "Been there, done that, doesn't work."


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

The thing is that it isn't outside the box at all - just about everyone tries it, and then they learn to keep a smoker lit. 

No offense to anyone - there is a real learning curve to lighting a smoker, and no shame in not quite being there yet.

Until there actually is an alternative to smoke this debate is like wondering about driving nails with a wrench - or an elaborate, expensive, nail gun - you can do it, but learn to use a hammer first.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> Until there actually is an alternative to smoke this debate is like wondering about _*driving nails with a wrench *_- or an elaborate, expensive, nail gun - you can do it, but learn to use a hammer first.


Yeah, its quite _difficult _to make the wrench grasp the nailhead so you can screw it into the wood. :s 

And now having said that, I can use my favorite emoticon!

:ws:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Smoke fills the hive and triggers a reaction. 

If you are filling the hive with smoke, you are using way too much smoke.

>Really? How does that work? Does some Agency really regulate what beekeepers do out in the bush?

Yes. The state and local fire marshals and the US Forest Service often ban any use of anything that could even make a spark during high fire danger times. That's a good time for liquid smoke or syrup, I suppose.


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## Greg Lowe (Feb 3, 2012)

I briefly tried an alternative to smoke earlier this year. It was the "Let the bees be understanding since they are weak and I won't be in there long approach". That was immediately followed by the "retreat to safety and hope you don't swell up like a balloon from all the bee stings" approach.

Now, I'm back to "the bees love the smoker - forget what others tell you" approach.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

For those who feel you need no smoker 
I am here to say 
To each his/her own 
Enjoy the time spent with your bees 

When the time comes (& it will)
Please please post the picture of 
What it was that prompted you go go out and buy one :lookout:


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I see a problem with using some kind of sweet or EO syrup as a spray, instead of smoke, that no one has mentioned yet that I see, and that is robbing. If I was to use any of those sprays instead of smoke for the beehive work in September, then I'd be setting off a robbing frenzy in all my hives and nucs in the yard.

I have used spray in the past, it was just water with a splash of vinegar in it. It worked somewhat well, but it won't push bees around like smoke does, and it does not affect the whole hive as smoke does, but just affects the immediate area of bees where it is sprayed. I prefer smoke, but I can see where it can be a large fire danger, as accidents do happen and large fires are quite scary, sad, dangerous and damaging in so many ways.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Some of the suppliers used to sell a device that would aerosolize liquid smoke....never used it, but it might be an option for fire hazard situations.

There is also a battery powered smoker....never used that either, bit think it would be appropriate for a hive or two where one might not want to bother during up a smoker so that it will stay lit for hours.

A lot of the commercial guys seem to use wood stove pellets and use a torch to get them started so it will smolders all day.

Deknow


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

Jack London said:


> You may not need an alternative, Michael Bush. But I was just asking out of mere curiosity.
> 
> Funny thing - standards and beekeeping. The standard hive design for thousands of years never involved moveable frames. But if you try telling that to certain beekeepers, they will rip you a new one!


Yes they will--Me included!! because the old "design" was basically a hollowed out skep or box and required *KILLING ALL OF THE BEE*S, usually with sulfur (yum...) to get the honey out


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

KMP said:


> Why? I can think of one reason... the smoke. ;-) (Especially bad if you're a non-smoker.)
> 
> BTW, I trick I learned for lighting and keeping a smoker lit: Use a piece of broom stick or something similar that's handy and wrap a small piece of parchment paper around it (e.g. baking paper) to make a tube. Place this in the center of the can, add fuel (more than you think), then remove broom stick and light smoker.
> 
> ...


To me an important factor is the fuel being used. Some, like burlap, can smell horrible. Others, like bark or needles, can be quite pleasant smelling. The best thing to do is to experiment with dry fuels available to you, and find something that works and smells nice and keeps burning.


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## Eagle (Mar 29, 2011)

I have had very good luck with a solution of 1 oz liquid smoke mixed in a large spray bottle with water. Real smoke is better, but I don't like to get my clothes all smokey. My family likes me using liquid smoke. When I use the smoker, I get sent right to the laundry room and then to the shower before I sit on the furniture.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

I've got an Ultrabreeze beesuit. I also have my bees in a weird situation. On the one hand, I have a small pasture, that is next to another pasture and also next to a family cemetery. The hives are a long way from anybody else. On the other hand, I live in a neighborhood. 

For the last two years, we have been in a severe drought. There have been fire bans that I assume would really make it illegal for me to light a smoker. Even if the fire ban did not extend to a bee smoker, it would be a really bad idea. One cinder could set off a fire that could get really bad, really fast. 

For much of the last two summers, I worked bees in a full bee suit without using a smoker and without even thinking about lighting one.

What I learned is that it's really not that big a deal, so long as you move slowly, don't mind a few stings, and wear good clothing. Also, I don't think it's more disruptive to the bees compared to smoking them. I don't think smoking bees "calms" them. I think it confuses them into thinking there is a fire, distracts them for that reason, and interferes with their alarm systems.

Also, once you close up a hive, they settle down pretty quickly, even without smoke. I really wonder whether the smoke in the hive persists longer than their bad mood does without smoke.

I'm not suggesting that you skip smoking bees if there is no fire risk. However, if there is a fire risk, get a good beesuit, some heavy gloves, and skip the smoke.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

So funny, one of my son's favorite memories from childhood is the smell of my smoker. I love coming in from my beeyard smelling of smoke and propolis!! I guess to each his own. I usually work my bees in gym shorts and a short sleeve tee BUT...I ALWAYS use smoke. I don't think burlap smells bad but then again I have never tried pine needles. 8)


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## KMP (Feb 21, 2013)

xcugat said:


> Yes they will--Me included!! because the old "design" was basically a hollowed out skep or box and required *KILLING ALL OF THE BEE*S, usually with sulfur (yum...) to get the honey out


Just wanted to say that this is getting a bit off-topic -- if anyone wants to discuss skep beekeeping (with the HYPERBOLE IN ALL CAPS or otherwise), then perhaps a new thread would be better.

-K


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Yes they will--Me included!! because the old "design" was basically a hollowed out skep or box and required KILLING ALL OF THE BEES, usually with sulfur (yum...) 

Propaganda based on chronological snobbery. Moses Quinby kept his bees in box hive up until they forced him into movable comb hives. He did NOT kill all the bees (nor did any significant number of people) and raised queens and did splits and was one of the most successful commercial beekeepers in American history. And, in fact, he INVENTED the smoker we now use. Skeps were kept the same way. You can harvest a skep or a box hive and kill no more bees than you do in a Langstroth. What you CAN'T do is inspect all the combs.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Beekeepers stopped using skeps because a vastly superior method was developed that uses wood boxes and removable frames. Nobody has ever come up with something that works better than smoke, so smoke is still used. BIG difference. The smoke = skep = outdated method(s) argument is ridiculous 

As far as smelling like smoke afterwards, you are supposed to smoke your bees, not yourself. If you are doing it right you should not smell (much) afterwards. The smell from my bee suit after working in the hot sun is worse than any smoke problem. 

I always like how the new beekeepers (a year or two) chime in saying that they never use smoke or veils. I am not saying that it _can’t_ be done with a lot of practice, but most people will end up finding out the hard way.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I use sugar spray and smoke. They are complimentary. Smoke alone does not always settle them.

I totally agree about smoke NOT calming bees. I have never seen it calm them. It just confuses them and keeps them from talking to each-other or they simply hide from it. If you mist them with syrup after you smoke them, then they lose the inclination to fly and sit and lick syrup instead.


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## davo (Feb 26, 2013)

I know I risk coming off like a tree hugging hippy... and this is partly true. But I found that my own emotional state and attitude could keep the bees calm. They are sensitive to movement and have their own body language. This is actually why I love keeping bees. It's meditative.

Yes, it's easier to shoot smoke in the entrance and down the top, but I don't like doing that. I listen, and if they tell me they don't like what I'm doing, I stop or slow down. I adjust my perspective and try again. If they are just irrevocably cranky that day and I must complete some critical task, I smoke them. *I do keep it lit*. Or, I leave to come back another day when they are more agreeable (or when I'm in a better mood myself).

My understanding is that the bees aren't actually calm when you smoke them. They are preparing for an emergency (the hive catching fire). They rearrange their defensive priorities and leave you alone. Is smoke more or less stressful than a human's hands in the hive? I don't know. But at least if I'm not smoking it's only one stressor and not two.

The other thing is that smoke contains a lot of chemicals I don't want soaking into my wax and honey through long term regular use. We all know what it does to lungs. I may try spraying syrup mixtures into the entrances this year and see if it makes a difference.

So, I use as little as I can get away with. Which, you may have noticed, is more than zero. 

I only have a year experience, but the whole year I was only stung twice. Once when I was moving the hives from a truck, and once in the fall. I had five hives... I probably actively used smoke around ten times.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Davo - I understand your point about "feeling the bees"... we are dealing with a collective super-entity after all. 

However, when your collective super-entity gets to full strength - they will try to kill you on occasion or try to drive you away. A one or two year hive is a far different critter than a 3 or 4 year hive - especially in the Fall or in a dearth.

Protecting yourself is a critical thing.


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## davo (Feb 26, 2013)

I do keep that in mind. That's why I make it a practice to always keep it lit. Someday there will be too many bees.

A problem I'm more than happy to have on my hands.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Paul McCarty said:


> Davo - I understand your point about "feeling the bees"... we are dealing with a collective super-entity after all.


Hopefully we can all limit "feeling the bees" by using proper handling techniques such as a smoker and a veil.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have to alternate smoke/syrup to keep my bees calm. The only time I go smoke-free is when they are too cold to fly. Desert bees can have a nasty attitude at times.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

..


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Hopefully we can all limit "feeling the bees" by using proper handling techniques such as a smoker and a veil.


Very true.


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## Sticky Bear (Mar 15, 2012)

This is from Bush Bees website and it does work well for keeping smoker lit. http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmisc.htm#smokerinsert










Out here in the desert we have juniper bark which looks like coconut husk when you break it apart and it burns clean and smells nice too, thanks goes out to Bill Davis for this tip.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

davo said:


> ...Someday there will be too many bees. A problem I'm more than happy to have on my hands.


Davo, you may indeed be prophetic, there. 

*We have fire bans here every year. I like that there are alternatives. But alternatives are not exact substitutions. 

*Keeping a smoker lit well can also depend on the size and design of the smoker. I have no problems keeping mine lit (after I watched a YouTube vid on how-to), but I helped a friend the other day and had a dickens of a time with hers, though ultimately successful. 

*Greg and tommy - y'all crack me up. 

*Pellets work great from what I've seen. I have asthma. Sets it off pronto - like nothing else I've used. The type of smoker And the fuel can make a big difference - in addition to experience. 

*The caustic and rude comments you Will find online here? That's because there are caustic and rude people. The upside is there is a wealth of knowledge here. The down side is it chases people off. 

*"Same" questions will continue to be asked. I'm guilty. I have all but given up on the Beesource search tool. If I want to search how to make a nuc, for instance, I will get 33,000 results. That is great if I want - and sometimes do - to spend a few Hours reading on a subject. But if I perhaps just want to converse with some folks more experienced on a subject than I, or I'm not in the mood to spend an hour trying to ask the question in a way that will reduce the search results down from 33k to the neighborhood of only 2,000 - or None - I'll post "the same" question "yet again." RnS people lay in wait. It's how they bully and feel superior. Considerate people will answer. Even though they've answered it perhaps a thousand times. 

Welcome aboard, Jack.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Seymore said:


> I have all but given up on the Beesource search tool. If I want to search how to make a nuc, for instance, I will get 33,000 results.


I'm not disputing your opinions posted above. 

But someone looking for nuc plans does not need to use any search tool. Just go to the "_Build it Yourself_" section of Beesource (reached from the Home page). There are plans for 3 different nuc styles right there. :lookout:
http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/

Also, there are plans for virtually every other piece of wooden ware a beekeeper might want to use. There is even a plan for building an extractor largely from wood!

If you haven't tried out the _Google Custom Search_ tool on the Beesource home page, I can highly recommend it. Note that this Google search is NOT the same as the forum search tools available at the top right of each forum page. The forum search tool is not as effective as the Google _Custom _Search on the left side of the home page, here:
http://www.beesource.com/


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I totally agree about smoke NOT calming bees. I have never seen it calm them.

If smoke is not calming them, you are using too much smoke.


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## sweetas (Apr 16, 2012)

I use sweet water with vanilla essence in it. I use this with smoke. It reduces the need for smoke. My logic, bees don't really like water if it is loaded with sugar they will clean each other up. Try it

Geoff


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Some bees don't calm - mostly the wilder sort; which is what I mostly have. 

Another good thing about juniper from out here in the desert is it is supposedly a natural miticide.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> But someone looking for nuc plans does not need to use any search tool. Just go to the "_Build it Yourself_" section of Beesource...


LOL Radar - thanks for all that info, really. Just goes to show text can be interpreted more ways than one. My verbiage was unspecific. I meant "make" a nuc in the "take one frame honey, 2 frames brood..." sorta way. 

Thanks for the tip on the custom search. I still don't seem to do well with that. My most effective searching comes from plain ol' google outside of BS and then I usually look for BS responses and land back here closer to my search goal than within BS. 

Yeah, all you kidders...I'm way ahead of you on the BS jokes...

Re: too much smoke... I was amazed to learn how little it takes. In my first year, those girls surely thought no escaping THAT fire - my fear of the bees was directly related to the amount of smoke I used! I'm sure the hive next door got a contact high! But I learned to ease up on it and that truly does help them not to be so angry. Now we are All happy. 'Cept wen we're not! A couple of puffs here. A couple of puffs there. Literally.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> My most effective searching comes from plain ol' google outside of BS and then I usually look for BS responses and land back here closer to my search goal than within BS.

If you prefer to use Google Search outside of Beesource, try typing or pasting this into the Google search box: _
nuc site:beesource.com
_ This uses Google, but limits the result to just the domain that appears after the keyword "*site:". *Of course, you can use this with sites other than Beesource.

And yes, I misread your intentions as to what "nuc" referred to!


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > If you prefer to use Google Search outside of Beesource, try typing or pasting this into the Google search box: _
> nuc site:beesource.com. _This uses Google, but limits the result to just the domain that appears after the keyword "*site:". *Of course, you can use this with sites other than Beesource.


WOW.... Totally kewl! Thanks for sharing that! I love it!:applause:


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## Javin007 (Mar 14, 2013)

Nabber86 said:


> Hopefully we can all limit "feeling the bees" by using proper handling techniques such as a smoker and a veil.


My brother in law and I found out that late at night, and after copious amounts of alcohol, you can pet a bee beard 4 times before getting the hell stung out of you.


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## sweetas (Apr 16, 2012)

I just make sure the water is very sweet ( with added vanilla essence for smell) , not a syrup. A syrup would not spray anyway.

Geoff


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## sweetas (Apr 16, 2012)

Is that alcohol for the bees or your yourself. If bees get stroppy after alcohol, could be a lesson for people not to consume alcohol 

Geoff


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

davo said:


> I know I risk coming off like a tree hugging hippy... and this is partly true. But I found that my own emotional state and attitude could keep the bees calm. They are sensitive to movement and have their own body language. This is actually why I love keeping bees. It's meditative.
> 
> Yes, it's easier to shoot smoke in the entrance and down the top, but I don't like doing that. I listen, and if they tell me they don't like what I'm doing, I stop or slow down. I adjust my perspective and try again. If they are just irrevocably cranky that day and I must complete some critical task, I smoke them. *I do keep it lit*. Or, I leave to come back another day when they are more agreeable (or when I'm in a better mood myself).
> 
> ...


I so agree! I do keep a smoker lit because on occasion a normally calm hive will be VERY unruly! Mine seem to not get over being upset quickly and will follow me quite a distance. Yet on most days they are very calm. 
One hive is pestered by neighboring bees all the time in attempted robbing. I must keep that hive very tightly covered and a very reduced entry. They are always ready to fight, lift the top and I get hit with a face full of bees. You know I wear my suit and veil AND use smoke.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

> My brother in law and I found out that late at night, and after copious amounts of alcohol, you can pet a bee beard 4 times before getting the hell stung out of you.


:lpf:


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