# almonds-weather-starvation?



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

HVH,

If you came out of Nevada with a single or light bees and are to the north you might want to think about checking them. Cheaper jumping over the hill than packing home deadouts. The trees are open here . Bees flew good last weekend. 8+ on a ten point scale. Maybe warm enough for a little nectar. Two inches of rain since. Yahoo--- summer honey flow. My bees need to be lightened up at this point so I'm not worried. The forecast temperature wise does not bode well for much nectar flow in the almonds the next 10 days. The bees tend to gain weight on the 60+ degree days. I'm sure Mann lake would love your business at the syrup counter if the ladies need it.

If you have 8 frames of bees in a box that weighs less than 30 lbs I would be getting nervous. 60-70 pounders will be ok.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

When In doubt FEED. The bloom is on in the North, but the weather doesn't look good for the next week. They will fly hard during the breaks,but not if its windy.
I felt some of ours were too light so arranged to have them fed.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Mr Mike,

Wise move. :thumbsup:


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

OK - I'm nervous then. I was hoping that the few 50 plus days would get them by until the pattern turns to our favor. The forecast for Modesto is on and off again rain punctuated with daytimes between 50 and 60. It looks like we might have four days in a row of clear sky. How long after a rain does it take for there to be fresh nectar? Does it require the opening of new blossoms or do the washed out flowers replace nectar quickly?
My fifty lightest colonies were given rim boards and several pounds of dry sugar but I am concerned that the ones that seemed heavy enough a month ago are feeling light. I will not make the same mistakes next year - hopefully any new mistakes won't be worse than the old mistakes.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

A few years ago it rained a lot during the bloom .On the muddy gumbo soils it was very difficult to feed but we fed what we could. I lost a few to starvation even though they were heavy going in.

We usually get feeders on them as soon as they are moved in just for insurance.Some of our hives hit an early flow in January and were VERY heavy going in. But I think they will eat it up quickly now,especially with all the brood they have.

Here at home there is 14 inches of snow this morning,so I get to watch the bloom on the internet.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Modesto almost always gets better Feb.weather than up in the far northern Sac Valley,so you may be ok. 
Theres nothing like checking for yourself during the breaks in the weather. It does me good to get out of these cold snowy mountains.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

With the rain they will take more dry sugar if you give them that. Moisture in the air to process it. 

If it was up to me I would... in descending order.

1. Put a can on top (no rim)
2. Put an inside feeder with syrup, 2-3 lbs of sucrose on paper with rim
3. Inside feeder with syrup.


Repeat in 1 week. 


And maybe the following.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I'll probably switch to feeding cans next year but currently have internal frame feeders. The thing I don't like about the internal frame feeders is that once they get enough dead bees in them you have a solid mat. The solid mat seems to make its way to the bottom of the feeder (and then get glued to the bottom) as the bees somehow get at the remaining feed. So then you fill up the feeder thinking all is well only to come back a week later to find the plug of dead bees has floated to the top of the feeder and made an impenetrable barrier. These are the Mann Lake feeders with the cylindrical ladders. I think the cans would be less work, although they tend to leak and initiate robbing. 
This was my first year trying dry feed and I am very impressed. When I went back only a few days after the initial feed I noticed the sugar was moist due to respiration and can't help but think moisture reduction could be a huge benefit. After reading Larry Conners article in one of last months journals, however, I may find that the dry feed didn't help the weak colonies much. 
I guess I need to drive a couple hundred miles to hedge my bets.


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## humbee (Dec 12, 2010)

Put a single sheet of screen in those internal feeders. Keep them all buzzing


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Humbee

He says he has the Mann Lake Ladders already. This is not an open feeder that needs a frame "insert" of some sort. Already has "wire." Am I reading him correctly?

HVH. 

If you haven't figured it out already you will shortly. When its cold there are certain colonies (they always tend to bee the small ones. Five frames and down at this time of year) that seem to have a death wish in division board style feeders. Its almost like the small ones are retarded in some fashion and just want to commit suicide and go drown themselves. You won't see this in warm weather. You won't see it on the big ones. Always wondered if since they were going down hill already they had some genetic predisposition to this division board suicide tendency naturally. Could be that the small ones are weak already and don't have the umph to suck up cold syrup through a straw( proboscis) while the big healthy ones can. Does anyone know if the proboscis on these drowning bees is either bigger, smaller, shorter, or longer than ones that tend to bee OK?


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

From what you have said, I wonder if the smaller colonies are simply not warm enough. The cluster is thought to be maintained at about 57 degrees during winter and then jumps to 95 around the brood after the solstice. If this is true, then perhaps as bees start to take a hike over to the internal frame feeder they get chilled and don't make it back unless the colony is strong enough to heat a larger volume of air space. Just a thought.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Nosema makes small colonies. Nosema infected colonies have more bees drown in the syrup. Have you tested your bees?


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I had that problem last year and after reading about the symptoms for N. cerana, I thought my packages may have been infected. Last year the packages didn't respond much to syrup, didn't expand and eventually died off. At first, I discounted the possibility because there wasn't any dysentery. Later, after reading, I found that N. cerana is not like N. apis regarding dysentery. This year's bees had a great start and really performed well in a few locations. I ended the season with a full depth and a medium but would have preferred two deeps. Since we have cold winters, the medium may be marginal at providing good stores so I am nervous. The pass is seeing nasty weather and the orchards will be all mud next week when the storm breaks. I guess this is natures welcome to farmers. If the storm breaks for a few days I guess I'll have to drive 7 hours RT and get some feed on the bees.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

HVH said:


> If the storm breaks for a few days I guess I'll have to drive 7 hours RT and get some feed on the bees.


Be glad it isn't 40 hr one way! like Fl beekeepers that sent there hives out light. Glad mine are all with in 15 mins of me right now with a continues supply of feed and pollen (as we call it here, the bucket flow And the patty plant lol).


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I am grateful for that. Can't imagine the nail biting that some might go through.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

HVH,
Pull the caps and ladders.
I will catch hell for this but, they don't work. The opening is not big enough and gets plugged with dead bees. Have seen it in hives that graded 12+ frames before almonds. Great idea just doesn't work. Maybe a bigger hole or more of them.
Mann Lakes feeders don't need a float or stick they are rough enough the bees can crawl up them and won't drown.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Certain feeders are designed wrong. Burr comb below it and propolis on the frame rest will not allow the bees to go in and out of the feeder properly.


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

I'm with Nick; had a bunch of caps & ladders from Motherlode, wound up taking them alll off.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Did you say they were in Modesto? If so most of the soil near there is pretty sandy. I did almonds there for 20+ years. We could move bees in and out in the middle of a ten inch storm. Miss the yards, miss the people, don't miss the LA traffic jam that moved into the area over the 30 years I've run bees. Having trees 3 miles away beats 200 RT any day. 

As for the caps and ladders they aren't perfect. We have thousands of the Mother Lode ones and I like them better than open ones. Especially if they are not "filled" in to prevent burr comb. 20 years ago I used to put swamp cooler padding in the deep feeders and cover it with 5 count hardware cloth to keep the mice out. Worked well as the "foam" in the swamp cooler pad only took up 3 % of the volume if I recall correctly. Bees loved the "grab" area to walk on. Virtually no drowning. We used to run the 2 frame wide plastic gallon feeders in the shallows on top also. I designed a pvc cap and ladder of which we made thousands in the early 90's as there where no commercial caps and ladders available at that point. Mother Lodes are basically a squared up snap on version of the ones we made way back. 


As for getting your little rump over the hill to feed in this cruddy weather all I can say is welcome to the world of beekeeping. Like other livestock farming you will be best served if you feed the cows before you feed yourself. If you really think its below your dignity to get r done when the weather is like it is you might as well sell what you have and put 3 hives in the back yard for fun.

Having bees is like being married. To make it work you need to put in the work. The "olden" days of slapping bees in a box and letting them do their thing while you watch the honey drip off the combs as you put lids on jars never did really exist. To finish the marriage analogy just remember that hungry ladies are grumpy ladies (if not dead ones)

If your not sure how your bees are doing you ought to get yourself over the hill even if it means replicating the feats of Snowshoe Thompson to do so. (snowshoethompson.org) 

My want to start thinking about finding someone in the area where you pollinate who might be a good resource to help you ought in times like these. A bee buddy willing to crack a couple of lids might save you a trip over the hill someday when you won't be able to make it.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I wonder how many beeks have had the same problem. Its a bit off topic but it has been suggested that the high spore count for C. botulinum may be due to dead bees in an anaerobic state. I have often wondered if piles of dead bees on the bottom board, hive feeders and the honey house might be sources of botulinum growth. I would suspect the 2:1 syrup to be rather bacteriostatic but maybe not. 
Either way I will try a comparison this season between ladders removed v.s. present.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

If you think that is your culprit I bet a bit of Thymol in the syrup would not do anything but help remedy it as well as other ailments.


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## bfriendly (Jun 14, 2009)

Relevant to this topic: Anyone know where I can pick up (only a couple of bags of) drivert near Chico? (Dadant is ..."backordered from factory") Thanks. PM or post..


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Is thymol bacteriostatic?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Not sure what fancy word you call it. All I know is that it works great to keep the black mold out of the feeders. Be they bucket, can , tank ,or inside. Works great to keep watered down syrup "fresh and new."

It is antibacterial and may be more. It is an active ingredient in Listerine. For the uninformed it makes it possible for the ladies to kiss each other in the hive and not spread stuff. No bad breath hives allowed you know.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I read an article once about using thymol in dry sugar but the efficacy was very low. The bees carries the sugar out. Then they tried powdered sugar and it was much more difficult for the bees to carry away which made it more effective. I might play with thymol this season. My understanding is that a few new miticides are being approved and we may have them on the market this season. I am going to try and harvest early this summer (middle/end of August) treat and let the bees build up longer before winter. If my memory serves me, it was one of Richard Taylor's book that said it is smarter to stop short in summer/fall and have really strong bees coming out of winter to collect the finest early crops. It seems with all the mite problems it may even be smarter yet. It makes sense to get the honey off early and treat for mites before the colony is over-run. Giving the bees an extra month to fill up the top box and recover from mites just makes sense to me. Besides, we have a very late nectar source in the way of Rabbit Brush that can build out the hives before winter. I'm hoping to get the rabbit brush followed by Eucalyptus.
p.s. Bacteriostatic means - kind of pissing off the bacteria and slowing their growth. Bacteriocidal means killing them.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Smart move management wise to rip and strip early. Mid late August now- a-days. Kill the mites and go rabbit brush hunting. 

The rabbit brush is a great source of pollen and dark honey for the fall. Free feed. Not sure where your going to find eucalyptus in Nevada though. I never seen any in my travels. ? :scratch:

Apigard contains thymol so it must kill mites also. ?


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

apigard is NOT a feed additive it is a miticide, so yes it does kill mites....


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

"The National Weather Service in Sacramento has issued a freeze
warning... for the northern and central Sacramento Valley... which is
in effect until 8 am PST Sunday."

Uh oh...not good.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

The Eucalyptus along highway 99 (between Sac and Modesto) is blooming.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Just checked Modesto - a bit warmer. What temp before blossom drop?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Sunday, 20 February 2011

Current weather, Fresno, Ca.
http://www.weather.com/weather/today/Fresno+CA+USCA0406
_______________________________________________________________

Current weather, Modesto, Ca
http://www.weather.com/weather/today/USCA0714
_______________________________________________________________

I hope the bees have been fed pollen sub. and syrup.
Good Luck,
Ernie


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

They were fed sub and sugar but might be getting low. I'm kind of in a bind. I just bought a used international with a 24 foot bed but can't really afford chains right now. It looks like the pass could require chains on the return trip so I would need to take my SUV but my old landcruiser is not really designed to pull a trailer with 3000 lbs of syrup. I could go down the mountain with dry sugar but only have about 50 feeding rims and 132 colonies. I think the best compromise is to try and build another 25 rims and just use triage and feed the lightest colonies. 

This is my first year in almonds and I am not certain why near freezing temps are a problem - at what temp do you get blossom drop? Do the emerging buds get killed?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

RE:

This is my first year in almonds and I am not certain why near freezing temps are a problem - at what temp do you get blossom drop?

Do the emerging buds get killed
Ans. The tree can take 32 degrees for a while. 
Blossom drop will not be for a while.
My guess is that the blossom drop determines your homeward bound trip. And, some growers want to wait until the last petal falls.
Good luck,
Ideally. For a fee or exchange of ???, some local bee keeper or broker could help you out.
I could help you. But, I am too far south of you.
I have my 225 gallon syrup tank and pump mounted on a 5'X10' tandom axel trailer.
Good luck
Ernie


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks Ernie,

Sorry about my loose terminology - by blossom drop, I meant due to the freeze. I've seen freezes knock blossoms down prematurely on other plants. 
I have a 14 foot trailer with the tote on it and a pump ready to go but I don't think my 1989 Landcruiser is up for the job. 
I guess I will have to talk to the wife about a loan for a Ford F450


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

HVH: For only 132 colonies i would suggest throwing about 500 or so lbs. of dry sugar in your land cruiser and a bunch of old newspaper. Split your doubles and you can quickly tell their feed situation, if they are light lay some paper down on the back half of the lower box and then pour 5 lbs. or so of dry sugar on the back half of your upper box. Not ideal but far better than letting them get hungry. They will clean it up pretty fast especially in damp conditions. A few hours of hard work for sure but time well spent. Good Luck


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I never thought of that approach - very interesting (that would solve the lack of a rim problem). Almost all of my bees are up against the top cover - will they still get at the feed if it laying on top of the bottom box? Daytime temps look like they will be mostly above 50F so I would think they could get at that feed??????


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

HVH,
That's ok.
Flier Jim has the better way to emergency feed the bees and it's much simpler let alone cost effective.
Ernie


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Came back from a run to Dadant for frames yesterday afternoon. The bees Arbuckle and North were flying after 130 pm as I went south. Not a wing in the air south of Arbuckle as its was to cold and windy. no sun.

Went to bed early last night and the coyotes were going nuts at 3:30 am so I let our dog out to get rid of them. They like to smile at my dads sheep. As I was opening the door my dad had the spotlight out and I heard the shotgun let one loose. Couple minutes later I heard Perky a half mile away chasing the scoundrels back to their dens. 

As I didn't hear him wander back home after the fight I was wondering if he was ok so I stepped out the door this morning to call to see if he was ok. In 9 years he has never got a scar from a coyote rumble but I still worry about the 5 to one odds.

As I stepped out on the deck I slipped and nearly landed on my old keester from the thin layer of ice. Once back in the house I called my dad to warn him about the ice outside. He said once the sun came up it was *27 degrees this morning[*

Just to let you know Mike, it did freeze. There was no ice on the puddles but on the rooftops and other elevated areas. My dad mentioned the almond blossoms as we will be getting near fully open here on our own trees the next couple of days. I did see the first pedals fall on the wild trees yesterday.

Time will tell if they got toasted or not. The forecast is sunnier the next couple of days but no 60's. 

HVH. The snow has stopped. Get over the hill and feed. If your worried about the full trailer over the grade come over empty and get syrup on the west side of the hills once you get here.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Yes, that will work. It's to your advantage because you will not disturb the bees.
Hint.
You could add some water to the dry sugar so it's easier for the bees to get started.
It's about time for a road trip.
Ernie


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I have fed a lot of bees like that mid winter with pretty good results, just try to keep the sugar to the back so it dosent filter on down to the bottom board where it may get used but occasionally they will just haul it out the entrance.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Don't know how cold Modesto got last night, but in the Corning area there were temps of 26 in some places. Definitely cold enough to do damage to the bloom. Now the growers will have turned on the sprinklers to try to protect the bloom.In some cases they will fly helicopters over the orchard to try to pull warmer air down.

Watch the Blue diamond website tomorrow.

If worst comes to worst, a coffee can full of dry sugar may save a hive!


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

This information is for *prunes*

Critical Temperatures1 for Frost Damage To Prune Buds, Flowers, or Fruit. 
___________________________________________________________________________

For almonds:
http://ucanr.org/files/47998.pdf



First White 26oF
First Bloom 27oF
Full Bloom 28oF Post Bloom 30oF
1 Temperature endured for 30 minutes or less.

Ernie


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks everyone - great info. I already have bags of sugar and no money for syrup, so it is time to load up the SUV and head over the hill. I really hope those buds can hang in there. 

Thanks again to everyone. 
Jim - your method just saved me hours in the shop. 
If I get my first installment, then I'll come down with the big truck and a tote during a warm spell.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/USCA0714

The next few days look good though not as warm as we would like.

We all worry about our bees when in almonds, but most years they are fine. There is nothing like checking them personally, and most of the time we find we worried for nothing. 

But I will be checking mine this week too...

Watch the weather reports and the Blue diamond site.

When things get tough,remember that snowshoe guy. He made us all look like wimps!!.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Hope it goes well for you, sounds like you have a pretty good "battle plan". If you get your first installment? Hmmm might not hurt to have a friendly little chat with your grower as long as you are there.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

loggermike said:


> http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/USCA0714
> 
> When things get tough,remember that snowshoe guy. He made us all look like wimps!!.


I've read C.C. Miller and Doolittle and feel like a big wimp when I read about their bees being loaded on horse and trailer. I didn't catch the snow shoe incident.

Jim, I am supposed to get paid on the 20th according to the contract (hey - that's today). It's funny how much money can be spent before you have it. I guess I've learned from congress. I just wish that any Draconian cuts to my income meant a smaller increase than expected.


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