# Titebond III versus Titebond II



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

I have a reasonable amount of experience using Titebond II and am relatively happy with it. I just purchased and used my first bottle of Titebond III and I am curious about how the beekeeping community at large uses these two glues:

1/ Is Titebond III considered less safe for bees than Titebond II in any way?

2/ Are there any areas of the beehive where Titebond III should be avoided (ie: frames or inside of the hive)?

3/ Are there any other consideratins to keep in mind when deciding whether to use Titebond III or Titebond II in beehive assembly?

From my first experience with it, here are the differences I have found with Titebond III versus Titebond II:

a/ 40% more expensive

b/ supposedly 'water-proof' as opposed to 'water-resistant'

c/ longer setting time - seems about twice as long in my limited experence

d/ more liquid which allows a thinner layer to be spread (but also leads to more running and a bigger mess to clean-up)

e/ dries to a light brown color instead of a dark yellow

My current plan is to use Titebond III for hive bodies, supers, bottom boards and other parts of the hive that are exposed to the elements, and to stick to Titebond II for frames and anything else that goes inside the hive like slatted racks. The inputs of anyone else who has experience with both of these glues and has formed opinions on how bset to use them in the assembly of beehive equipment would be most appreciated.

-fafrd


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

I think you have a good plan. To be perfectly legal read which is food-safe and which is not. They are fundamentally different chemical ****tails. The inside of a hive is a humidity (moisture) controlled environment anyway. Ever wonder why the candy plug in queen cages does not melt out. Actually I had one go in a very rainy week. I used the cheap interior glue for ten years without incident. I put ten nails or 6 staples in every frame. I have started using Liquid Nails on supers and external parts. It is awesome, fills any gaps and is flexible enough it will not snap like PVA (Titebond) glues.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Titebond III is the food safe glue, I use it on all hive parts, inside and out with no problems, it is expensive though.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

I use TBIII, except when I can't get it, then I use TBII, except when I can't get it, then I use Carpenter's Wood Glue except when I can't get it, then I just use staples. Most commercial guys don't bother with glue. And this guy won't bother with it either when I get another 100 hives. THE BEES DON"T CARE!!!


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## Jim Stevens (Jan 15, 2007)

Living in the Great Northwest, we can get rain for 6 to 9 days strait, and snow, then there’s mist and the due.
I like to use what I think works best here.
I want my boxes as tight as possible, with no water seeping in. I glue, clamp, pilot drill then nail.
I have shop rags around for clean up, don’t matter if I’m using TB II/III or Liquid Nail.

I’ve used liquid Nail in the tube, on boxes, Lids, B Boards and frames, it works great.
I got tired using a calking gun and the tube thing.
Then I found Titebond II, and TB III, they both work great.
No problems with primer and paint. 
As fafrd stated, TB II is water resistant, TB III is water proof.
As a matter of personal preference I lean tuward TB III, as its water proof.
When I need to resupply and can’t find TB III, I will fall back on TB II then Liq. Nail.
The Cost around here is, 
TB II, 16oz @ $7.49
TB III, 16oz @ $9.79
I don’t mind the price difference.
Jim


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## greengecko (Dec 16, 2008)

The "cure time" is the same. It is the "open time" that is longer. That makes Titebond III a better choice for larger glue-ups where Titebond II would begin to set before the all joints are in place and clamped.

Yes, Titebond III is FDA approved for indirect food contact.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Jim Stevens said:


> The Cost around here is,
> TB II, 16oz @ $7.49
> TB III, 16oz @ $9.79
> I don’t mind the price difference.
> Jim


Jim,

check your local home depot - around here it is $5 for II and $7 for III (16oz).

-fafrd


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## Jim Stevens (Jan 15, 2007)

fafrd said:


> Jim,
> 
> check your local home depot - around here it is $5 for II and $7 for III (16oz).
> 
> -fafrd


Thanks fafrd,
I'll check again, sometimes my local HD won't have III.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

I am thinking of wax dipping my new hives (parafin and rosin) - has anyone wax dipped hive bodies held together with either of these glues and does anyone know if these glues will withstand the temperature and stresses of wax dipping?

-fafrd


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## brendantm130 (Jan 23, 2010)

I believe it fails above 200 F. But I'd have to look it up.


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## MRADAMS (Mar 7, 2010)

Why would you want to glue frames - what's wrong with just nailing ???


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

MRADAMS said:


> Why would you want to glue frames - what's wrong with just nailing ???


In my area, where there is a trickle flow a lot of the year, strong hives propolize, brace comb and burr comb the frames together and the combs to the sides of the box. All of this is stronger than the tension of the staples in the frames. I both glue and place a staple through the end bar in to the top bar. Every time you pry out a top bar leaving the comb in the box you will understand why many glue their frames.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

brendantm130 said:


> I believe it fails above 200 F. But I'd have to look it up.


From Michael Bush's web site: The wax/gum rosin mixture was melted and heated to between 230 and 250 F. At 250 the boxes cook nicely (like deep fat frying them) in about six to eight minutes. At 230, they take more like 10 to 12 minutes. 

Does this mean that if you want to wax-dip hives glued with Titebond II or III the wax-dipping process will destroy the strength of the glue joints? What do others wax-dipping boxes do as far as gluing joints?

-fafrd


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

I tried the Titebond III in boatbuilding, since it is listed as water proof. I found that joints would break under pressure, that would not break with Titebond II. I called the factory abou this, and they asked me to send them some sample joints, which I did. They tested them, and found they broke too, but blamed me for it, saying that the wood joint was not "machined" to a close enough tolerance. I asked them how I could get it closer, as all I had was a table saw and dado blade? I pointed out that the same joints did not give with Titebond II. They never gave me a good answer, as they were not about to admit that their expensive glue, sucked. I did some studies, then, and found out why Titebond II did not pass the waterproof test. There are several tests the glue must pass, and one of them has the glued joint being boiled in water for so many minutes, and then l put under stress. The TBII glue had a breakage on this test. It almost tested waterproof, but not quite. Anyway, The TBIII would fail in my joint test, It failed when I used it to glue scarfed playwood, it was a pain to clean up and was more expensive. I threw the rest of the bottle away, and have used Titebond II since, or, if I cannot get that, Elmer's Probond, which is about as good.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

TBIII on everything for me!!!


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

fafrd said:


> does anyone know if these glues will withstand the temperature and stresses of wax dipping?
> 
> -fafrd


I talked to a tech at Titebond but I don't remember the tempertures for both TBII and III. The softening and failing temps are higher for TBIII; I believe it begins to soften at 150F. 


Give them a call.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

fafrd said:


> I am thinking of wax dipping my new hives (parafin and rosin) - has anyone wax dipped hive bodies held together with either of these glues and does anyone know if these glues will withstand the temperature and stresses of wax dipping?
> 
> -fafrd


I dip all my equipment in rosin/wax at 275 to 325 and I have no clue if it holds or not. I can tell you this, my equipment looks wonderful after dipping and is solid, protected and if the glue loses it's effectiveness when heated, it doesn't matter to me. I figure that when I put it together the glue holds it, at least for the months until I dip it...after dipping I am totally satisfied, so I don't care if the glue has broken down by then. Just my thoughts...


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## dave28210 (Nov 10, 2008)

Good experiences here with Titebond III. I guess the real question is how much equipment you have to assemble, as price on a commercial or big time hobbyist scale could make a difference.


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## dave28210 (Nov 10, 2008)

Chick said:


> I tried the Titebond III in boatbuilding, since it is listed as water proof. I found that joints would break under pressure, that would not break with Titebond II. I called the factory abou this, and they asked me to send them some sample joints, which I did. They tested them, and found they broke too, but blamed me for it, saying that the wood joint was not "machined" to a close enough tolerance. I asked them how I could get it closer, as all I had was a table saw and dado blade? I pointed out that the same joints did not give with Titebond II. They never gave me a good answer, as they were not about to admit that their expensive glue, sucked. I did some studies, then, and found out why Titebond II did not pass the waterproof test. There are several tests the glue must pass, and one of them has the glued joint being boiled in water for so many minutes, and then l put under stress. The TBII glue had a breakage on this test. It almost tested waterproof, but not quite. Anyway, The TBIII would fail in my joint test, It failed when I used it to glue scarfed playwood, it was a pain to clean up and was more expensive. I threw the rest of the bottle away, and have used Titebond II since, or, if I cannot get that, Elmer's Probond, which is about as good.



Good information. I used caulk on the outside of my joints just in case the TBIII decided to not be so waterproof, though this is the first account I've heard with an issue. No issue with it on the frames so far though (2years) Better safe than sorry--I waterproof my boxes so that my unborn great-grandkids might use them!


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## Jim Stevens (Jan 15, 2007)

I found some interesting info on the Titebond site.
Talks about testing and what is involved, like boiling for 4 hours and more.
I took this from there site.

>>>Take note of storage life.

The Best of The Best
Titebond® brand wood glues have set the industry standard for over 50 years. Titebond® III is the best-performing Titebond® wood glue and is ideal for both interior and exterior woodworking. It offers the highest strength, longest open time, lowest chalk temperature, highest viscosity and the best water-resistance of our primary wood glues. 

Strength* 4,000 psi 
Open Time 10 minutes 
Chalk Temperature 47° F 
Viscosity 4,200 cps. 
Exterior Use Yes** 


* Maple to maple (ASTM D-905)
** Passes ANSI/HPVA Type I water-resistance
*** Passes ANSI/HPVA Type II water-resistance 

Physical Properties

Type Advanced Proprietary Polymer 
Calculated VOC (less water) 5.6 g/L 
State Liquid 
Weight/gallon 9.22 lbs. 
Color Tan 
Chalk Temperature* Approx. 47°F. 
Dried Film Light Brown 
Flashpoint >200°F. 
Solids 52% 
Freeze/thaw stability Stable (5 cycles) 
Viscosity 4,200 cps 
pH 2.5-3.0 
Storage life 12 months (in tightly closed containers at 75°F.) 

*Chalk temperature indicates the lowest recommended temperature at which the glue, air and materials can be during application, to ensure a good bond. 

Questions & Answers
What is Titebond® III Ultimate Wood Glue?
Titebond® III is the first one-part, waterproof wood glue that cleans up with water and offers a one-year shelf life. It is an advanced, proprietary polymer-based formula that offers the preferred performance attributes as defined by professional woodworkers. Titebond® III represents the benefits of multiple gluing technologies and delivers them in a single product, ideal for interior and exterior woodworking applications.

What is the difference between the ANSI/HPVA Type I and Type II
water-resistance specification? 
Both of these tests are conducted using 6” by 6” birch laminates glued together to make three-ply plywood. The test for Type I is clearly more stringent than Type II, and involves boiling the glue bonds and testing the specimens while they are wet. 
Type I testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 1" by 3" specimens, boiling them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 145°F oven for 20 hours. They are boiled for an additional 4 hours, then immediately cooled using running water. The specimens are sheared while wet, and the bonds must pass certain strength and wood failure requirements to pass the Type I specification.

Type II testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 2" by 5" specimens, soaking them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 120°F oven for 19 hours. This is repeated for a total of three cycles, and the bonds must not delaminate to pass the Type II specification.

How does Titebond® III compare to polyurethane glues?
While polyurethane glues bond well to a variety of materials, Titebond® III is superior in many ways. In addition to excellent water-resistance, it provides a stronger bond on wood-to-wood applications, doesn't foam and requires less clamp time. Titebond® III has no health issues, doesn't require the use of gloves and cleans up with water. It is significantly less expensive than polyurethane glues and offers similar coverage rates.

Why should I use Titebond® III instead of Titebond® II or the other Titebond Wood Glues?
While all Titebond® products provide superior performance, Titebond® III is especially useful for outdoor applications in cooler temperatures or when concern for substantial moisture calls for the use of a Type I glue. For interior applications, the longer working time of Titebond® III provides woodworkers the necessary latitude to ensure that substrates are precisely aligned before being bonded. Overall, Titebond® III combines superior strength, Type I water-resistance, long open time and low chalk temperature into one easy-to-use formulation.

Jim


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

BeeCurious said:


> I talked to a tech at Titebond but I don't remember the tempertures for both TBII and III. The softening and failing temps are higher for TBIII; I believe it begins to soften at 150F.


I will update another thread later. For now I can say that at approximatly 170F Titebond 3 is softened. I glue the inside corners of all my assemblies. As a little test, I placed a hive-top nuc feeder in a warm oven for about 40 minutes. There was a new thermometer inside. 

Someone should dip some glued boxes to see if it runs out of the joints.


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## plaztikjezuz (Apr 22, 2010)

anyone use gorilla glue?

i used the standard titebond on my hive because that is what i have right now.
is the 2 or 3 worth the expense? i have gorilla glue also, can i use that instead?


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

BeeCurious said:


> For now I can say that at approximatly 170F Titebond 3 is softened.
> 
> Someone should dip some glued boxes to see if it runs out of the joints.


BeeCurious,

I probably talked to the same Tech at Titebond (Franklin) over a month ago who gave me the same information. What I also learned is that the glue softening of Titebond related to high temperatues is reversible - in otherwords, after the wood has cooled back down the glue retains 100% of its strength.

I have been dipping boxes glued with Titebond III in boiling wax/rosin at 250 degrees F for 10-15 minutes. The boxes are coming out beautiul and strong. Some of my supers use a lock-mieter joint where I do not use any nails and there has been no slippage of the glued joints through the wax-dipping process.

The Franklin Tech I spoke with has a soft spot in his heart for beekeepers and tod me that in his opinion the much lower cost Titebond I will work fine for all hive equipment. I use Titebond I for anything that does not require a long set-up time (such a frames, lids, etc..). For boxes where getting a good glue coverage on several complex surfaces can take some time, I use Titebond III primarily for it's convenently long set-up time.

-fafrd

p.s. at 250 degrees F with a 10-15 minute exposure, there is no 'run out' of the Titebond glues at the joints. My suspicion is that the only problem you could have in heating the glue to the softening temperature is if you have a joint under stress (such as a box joint with warped wood that has been glued 'straight' by using clamps) and withtout any other reinforcement (such as nails), in which case the joint might slip or fail...


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## Kentuckybee (May 11, 2008)

I have been dipping my hives in a mixter of paraffin wax and gum rosin also, using Titebond III with no problems what so ever.
You can easily see that the corners are still glued. No runoff or loss of glue.
After my boxes are built I do let them sit for about a week or so before I dip them. Mostly I wanted the wood to dry out also. 
I use the titebond III on the boxes and the frames. 11 hives going these year and the bees look happy.
Good Luck.
Bruce


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

think I bought titebond III by the gallon for < $30.
I assemble equipment in the winter, titebond has a lower working temp than the gorilla glue
and at too low a temperature you don't get good penetration into the wood so low holding potential

re the comment why glue at all? - propolis is stronger than staples, i glue and shoot 6 staples into the top bar alone.

I paint hives. Woke up sleeping in a burning house once in my life, gives you a certain respect for energy potential. No offense intended to anyone but boiling flammable materials is not my idea of working smart. besides i like finding odd color paint in the bargain bin, gotta love those pastels in the bee yard, partial to greens and blues personally.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

fafrd said:


> BeeCurious,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fafrd,

I had a woman tech on the phone who knew her products. 

I saw evidence of TB3 melting/running at around 220F but it was on wood that warped before being put together. I actually glued the hive-top feeders first, then put screws in later. I had filled gaps as large as 1/8" with glue. On nice tight joints I'm sure the glue stays in place much better. The pressure of the melted parrafin may also "hold" glue in any wide joints.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=530655&postcount=18


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## BigT (Mar 6, 2006)

I use gorilla glue and have for about three years now. I have never had a problem with it. I also use titebond II and like it also.


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