# Im curious, has anyone gone to a weekend class by Leo Sharashkin



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Maybe cheaper and less risk to watch his videos.


https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Leo+Sharashkin+


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Hogback Honey said:


> I've a friend that would like to attend one of his 2 day classes, I'm leery, as it's $299.00, no refund if you cancel up to 3 weeks before the class. Has anyone here gone to one of his weekend classes, is it worth it? How many are usually in these classes, 20, 30?
> 
> TIA


Just read his site, articles by him and about him, watch the vids, and read the book "Keeping bees with a smile" (if want to buy that; the original in Russian is a free PDF).
That will will get you the same material and at your own pace.

Crucial part - his results are reproducible at his location only as he is plugged into the local feral population.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think he is already booked solid but there is a good chance that with the COVID-19 they will be cancelled. Personally I would rather listen to talks about bees by someone like Michael Palmer who has made a living at it.


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## Mikro (9 mo ago)

Bump.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

I considered going.
but then discovered that "room and board" + Gas took the trip to a place I felt was to pricy.
I instead bough his 3 most popular books, IMO that and a couple of his Utubes took me close to where the onsite boot camp would for < 25% of the cost

If Money in not an issue then place it in the entertainment column and go. Keep in mind his DR is in forestry and has some of that slant. If you are a visual learner it would be a good trip.

GG


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## Mikro (9 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> I considered going.
> but then discovered that "room and board" + Gas took the trip to a place I felt was to pricy.
> I instead bough his 3 most popular books, IMO that and a couple of his Utubes took me close to where the onsite boot camp would for < 25% of the cost
> 
> ...


Same here.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

I gained a lot of info from just the book "Keeping Bees With A Smile". The class might be helpful for a begginer like me, but you could also just read and watch his online stuff.


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## maniago (10 mo ago)

Wife and I went in 2021. We drove out from MD and saw the sites and visited relatives on the way so killed a few birds with the one stone. We felt it was worth it (compared to other vacation costs it was minor really) and in-person training is always better than read-a-book stuff for me. Besides, youre with like minded people - some already keeping and some just starting - you can also network for qus later given the layens hive US group is pretty small still. Seems like lots of people on Beesource like to poo-poo Dr Leo but have no experience with him, and have no reason to do so except that hes doing a different "religion" and we all know how religious wars go. If you consider all the people making money on Langstroth stuff (and noone poopoos them), and that each of our geographic regions require slightly tweekings of the standard bee keeping methods, hes no different in either way. I do wish he had his own forum site for his past class participants to reengage in, but oh well. Just my .02.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

maniago said:


> Seems like lots of people on Beesource like to poo-poo Dr Leo but have no experience with him, and have no reason to do so except that hes doing a different "religion" and we all know how religious wars go.


Mind you some of us here do have some experience.
Issue with Dr. Leo is that he is sending mixed messages and feeds a certain amount of mis-information (which then sets up people to fail - after they spend money with him).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is just one example (from Wisconsin too).
Notice how by October those beautifully decorated Layens hives are *empty of bees.*

This what will happen if you are to follow Dr. Leo to the letter in most places in Wisconsin (meaning to leave them alone) - been there, done that.

(146) 162 Day Inspection 20 Frame Layens Horizontal Bee Hive on October 9, 2021 - YouTube
(146) Winterize 174 Day Inspection 20 Frame Layens Horizontal Bee Hive on October 21, 2021 - YouTube

Pretty sure this season it will be a repeat of the 2021 for this lady.
Dr. Leo does not teach how to identify a mite crash in his beautiful leave-them-alone Layens hives.
But here is perfect picture of one.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Is there anything wrong with layens... not really. Bit inconvenient sometimes to get matching and compatible equipment but that isn't the end of the world.

The biggest problem I have with Leo's methods is that he is the latest iteration in the Lazy Beekeeping movement that has been around for a while. I use to be a lazy beekeeper myself... it is very expensive.

Laziness gets you losses with any creature. There is a reason his honey is 90 bucks a pound. He doesn't make much. (And he is very popular due to good social media marketing) 

While I am on social media too we take a different approach. Sweat equity and bee husbandry can get you this.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Kamon A. Reynolds said:


> While I am on social media too we take a different approach. Sweat equity and bee husbandry can get you this.


I agree with that 100%. We didn't grow the bee operation to the size of yours, but when wife and I purchased our current property we decided to expand on the bee operation. We rolled all the revenue from bee stuff back into purchasing 'bee stuff' until we had everything we needed to comfortably run 50 colonies, 100 if we pushed it.

The 'honey house' (really just a 12x20 shed)









The extracting room (the little table has since been replaced with a proper capping setup similar to the MUTT)










It's all from 'sweat equity', we sweated to end up with the revenue, then spent it on improving the overall setup. The honey house has a warm room that'll comfortably hold 50 supers without stacking to high, we are set up to extract and bottle in there.

It really depends how far you want to take it, but, the bee business is great in so much as one can start with very little and build it into a substantial business by inputting nothing more than sweat equity.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Dr. Leo does it mostly via his keyboard! Not much sweat there! _You sweating guys just is Neanderthals_


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

maniago said:


> Seems like lots of people on Beesource like to poo-poo Dr Leo but have no experience with him, and have no reason to do so except that hes doing a different "religion" and we all know how religious wars go. If you consider all the people making money on Langstroth stuff (and noone poopoos them), and that each of our geographic regions require slightly tweekings of the standard bee keeping methods, hes no different in either way. I do wish he had his own forum site for his past class participants to reengage in, but oh well. Just my .02.


I don't see it so much as poo-poo more like skepticism that his method is one that should be followed to the T. The problem is, and I had been a follower of Dr. Leo, that is what got me using Layens in the first place, is that he does not show the pitfalls for new beekeepers in both the 'leave alone method' and the TF method. His hive, for one thing, is a flawed design, his TF touting should be dialled back and he should add the caveat that TF only works in certain situations in certain geographical areas of the country and what works for him is not necessarily transferable to others. 

IMO, there is no room for' Lazy' in beekeeping, beekeeping requires work no matter how many hives. It requires in depth learning, just look at all the info on this one forum, and it requires a new beekeeper to look into their hives periodically. IMO it is hard to recognize when something has gone wrong if you are not familiar with what looks right. 

I have seen a few Lazy beekeepers the leave em alone crowd, and both have lost their hives the first two winters they had them, one now is on the third, which I donated, and we will see what next spring brings.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Kamon A. Reynolds said:


> There is a reason his honey is 90 bucks a pound. He doesn't make much.


I actually see no problem here.
Nothing is wrong with lifting less bulk - but if you still get the same money for it, then you are doing well.
Sort of along the idea that lifting the queens is much easier on the back than lifting honey.

Heck, if I manage to sell a jar of highly special and unique honey for $1000, I am done selling for the season.

My fuss is about skipping the *importance of the local context* which really drives things.


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## maniago (10 mo ago)

Ok guys, I hear you on your comments. And dont get me wrong, I'm not a blind disciple of Dr Leo persay - ala David Koresh etc. But I dont think its fair to bash him if youve not gone to his class and heard what he says or doesnt say. I dont ever remember him saying that his methods are the holy grail to be followed to the T, or anything like that. Yes he tauts "set it and forget it". But my notes also show that he said, it works for him - most of the time - but he gets problem hives too, and you need to work w the bees if you need to. Yes hes on 100 acres of tick infested forest, so hes mostly insulated from problems; gets lots of wild swarms etc etc - he acknowledges that. And he gives credit to Lazutin and DeLayens ad nauseam, so hes not plagiarizing like an infomercial. Really, these days if you dont have an ounce of common sense (and I'll fully agree we do have a country of numbskulls who cant think critically, god help us), then yes, stay in your armchair, eat your funyuns, and watch the Bachelor for your fun.
Personally, I listen to everyone, fish out the nuggets, and chuck the rest. When youre a bull****ter yourself, its pretty easy to spot a bull****ter no matter what the topic. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, IDK. I'm just a hobby guy.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

maniago said:


> Ok guys, I hear you on your comments. And dont get me wrong, I'm not a blind disciple of Dr Leo persay - ala David Koresh etc. But I dont think its fair to bash him if youve not gone to his class and heard what he says or doesnt say. I dont ever remember him saying that his methods are the holy grail to be followed to the T, or anything like that. Yes he tauts "set it and forget it". But my notes also show that he said, it works for him - most of the time - but he gets problem hives too, and you need to work w the bees if you need to. Yes hes on 100 acres of tick infested forest, so hes mostly insulated from problems; gets lots of wild swarms etc etc - he acknowledges that. And he gives credit to Lazutin and DeLayens ad nauseam, so hes not plagiarizing like an infomercial. Really, these days if you dont have an ounce of common sense (and I'll fully agree we do have a country of numbskulls who cant think critically, god help us), then yes, stay in your armchair, eat your funyuns, and watch the Bachelor for your fun.
> Personally, I listen to everyone, fish out the nuggets, and chuck the rest. When youre a bull****ter yourself, its pretty easy to spot a bull****ter no matter what the topic. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, IDK. I'm just a hobby guy.


OK, here.
Read for yourself:
*



Natural beekeeping -

Click to expand...

*


> “Pulling honey is all I do.” – One hive visit per year. – Mistakes to avoid.


*



Treatment-free

Click to expand...

*


> - Healthy strong colonies without any drugs.


Directly from:
*Natural Beekeeping Workshop ~ October 15-16, 2022 ~ Cabool, MO*





Natural Beekeeping Course | Dr Leo Sharashkin







horizontalhive.com





One who is posting this is selling mis-information to those who don't know any better and are looking for magic (there are always suckers for magic).

Yes, I get it - academically sounding workshop about "ergonomic benefits of a horizontal hive" will not sell as well (sounds boring!).
As well - academically sounding workshop about "minimal/no treatment beekeeping in *Southern Missouri*" will not sell as well (while being very likely accurate and factual).
It has to be "Natural and treatment-free and one-visit-per-year blah blah...." - to sell well.

Last summer I did just such a horizontal hive workshop (meaning it to be technical).
People came looking for basic beekeeping advice (NOT to discuss the nuts and bolts of the horizontal hive beekeeping).
It was kind of a flop that way, pretty much I was talking into emptiness.


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## maniago (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> OK, here.
> Read for yourself:
> 
> It was kind of a flop that way, pretty much I was talking into emptiness.


Ok, I'm gonna just bow out now. I'm good with what information I got from Dr Leo. And I'm also good with the info on hive consolidation that you gave me on the other thread.

Thanks to everyone whos willing to help a newbee out.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

maniago said:


> Ok, I'm gonna just bow out now. I'm good with what information I got from Dr Leo. And I'm also good with the info on hive consolidation that you gave me on the other thread.
> 
> Thanks to everyone whos willing to help a newbee out.


You got some learning to do yet.
Good luck.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> One who is posting this is selling mis-information to those who don't know any better and are looking for magic (there are always suckers for magic).


So I had the opportunity to attend Dr. Leo's conference last fall with Kirk Webster, and I was glad I went. The conference was chock full of practical advice and more than a few warnings about what can happen if you do not have access to suitable genetics and/or fail to recognize and act on hive cues or changing threats- Dr. Leo spent quite a lot of air time at the meeting discussing recent run ins with SHB, which had caused him to have to adjust his management protocol.

When you dig into the actual agenda for the meeting, you can see the plan is to cover a lot of ground regarding genetics, hive type, management, etc. based on the situation on the ground where you're located:



https://horizontalhive.com/natural-beekeeping-conference/natural-beekeeping-missouri.pdf



I think what we may be observing here is the distinction between marketing and cold-hard reality- any consumer industry that comes to mind uses marketing to emphasize the benefits while minimizing the risks in an attempt to encourage a purchase - and I don't think we should hold Dr. Leo to a standard above what we expect of anyone else in the industry.

As an example, when is the last time you saw this in the Mann Lake catalog:

_2 pound packages made in Georgia will be available for you in Wisconsin to purchase a month before you should really be installing them - oh, and by the way these colonies have absolutely no resistance to varroa whatever- so plan on treating them early and often with OAV. You do have an EZVap don't you? But don't worry- if you mess up, we'll always have more next year... but they'll cost a little more. Oh, and by the way- it's possible that the queen we've included might be rejected by the colony or turn up a drone layer, so make sure you inspect in two weeks and plan on calling us in a panic to order a replacement queen. Better yet, might want to plan on 3 colonies to start with, because you're going to kill one this season due to beekeeper error and one will die by no fault of your own - that way you'll still have bees at Christmas time to impress your visiting relatives who will have seen on Facebook that you are now 'into beekeeping'._


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> and I don't think we should hold Dr. Leo to a standard above what we expect of anyone else in the industry.


It is true.

But also, IF I was doing similar workshops - I would at the very least remove those statements (I quoted above) from the workshop description.
Without thinking too hard - those exact statements reduce the credibility of the entire thing in my eyes (add to this the very risky tree-climbing/swarm-trapping ideology promotion - totally unnecessary and misleading as well - the tree-climbing part, to be clear).

It is shame.
This is because with very few adjustments Dr. Sharashkin's program has lots of merits and utility and real potential.
As for me, I would somehow transform those cheap gimmicks into a different but yet still attractive message.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> As an example, when is the last time you saw this in the Mann Lake catalog:
> 
> _2 pound packages made in Georgia will be available for you in Wisconsin to purchase a month before you should really be installing them - oh, and by the way these colonies have absolutely no resistance to varroa whatever- so plan on treating them early and often with OAV. You do have an EZVap don't you? But don't worry- if you mess up, we'll always have more next year... but they'll cost a little more. Oh, and by the way- it's possible that the queen we've included might be rejected by the colony or turn up a drone layer, so make sure you inspect in two weeks and plan on calling us in a panic to order a replacement queen. Better yet, might want to plan on 3 colonies to start with, because you're going to kill one this season due to beekeeper error and one will die by no fault of your own - that way you'll still have bees at Christmas time to impress your visiting relatives who will have seen on Facebook that you are now 'into beekeeping'._


This is exactly the example which a serious person should use to differentiate themselves.
But that same very serious person should state up front - you very well may fail in your Wisconsin suburb when trying to replicate what I am doing.
Here is *WHY*.....

Then talk about the "why" part in very fine detail.
Also - redefine the "success" part - meaning "one visit per year" will transform into "four visits per year" in different locations - this is still a success (due to different circumstances).
Put this up the web site too.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> This is exactly the example which a serious person should use to differentiate themselves.
> But that same very serious person should state up front - you very well may fail in your Wisconsin suburb when trying to replicate what I am doing.
> Here is *WHY*.....
> 
> ...


This seems kind of like a balance between being sincerely honest, so your customer is well educated, but not overwhelming them with to many cons -so that they get scared out of buying (or starting beekeeping).

I believe this discussion is really about marketing. Interesting!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

A partial quote from Russ:

"I think what we may be observing here is the distinction between marketing and cold-hard reality- any consumer industry that comes to mind uses marketing to emphasize the benefits while minimizing the risks in an attempt to encourage a purchase - " 

So true, but I have to admit becoming more and more browned off when I perceive lop sided encouragement and unbalanced portrayal of probable outcomes. No doubt it is a fact that many people would not fall in if they were initially shown the unsweetened reality. Marketing sure is not for the benefit of the bees.

_Doctor_ Leo is undoubtedly a sharp marketer and would be a good case study for someone with marketing aspirations.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I will hang up (repeatedly) this YT channel from a WI lady with her two Layen's hives.

This year she got her two packages of Buckfast in hopes that the outcome will be different.
This is such a good demo channel of an inexperienced beekeeper who attempts to replicate Leo S. beekeeping model down to the letter (perfect hives, minimal invasion, and all).

She (accidentally! since she did not know any better) documented her mite crashes in October 2021.
Keep track of it and see what happens in October 2022.

I did suggest to her to review the mite control situation - which pretty much went unheard.
The point of installing those packages was the perfect timing to conduct a clean start using OAD (which was blown) - could have been sufficient to even make it into the 2023.

You already know my prediction - she will be buying new bees in spring 2023 (unnecessarily).



https://www.youtube.com/c/BeeLogwithSuperBeeShirleyandBBSBees


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

BEE J said:


> This seems kind of like a balance between being sincerely honest, so your customer is well educated, but not overwhelming them with to many cons -so that they get scared out of buying (or starting beekeeping).


Maybe so, but if they are scared out of buying with the truth then so be it, is it better they learn after they have lost multiple hives to mismanagement caused by not telling them the whole truth? I think not. 

The glossing over serves no purpose except to discourage those who fail when they follow the proposed method and they then feel they must be terrible at beekeeping, terrible at caring for bees and just terrible at the whole business. If they go in with eyes wide open to all the pitfalls they will come out better at the end of it without feeling like a total incompetent. Beekeeping is hard, selling it as anything but is IMO misrepresenting the truth in order to garner sales.

Slick marketing strategies that gloss over the reality tick me off, right from those who sell old varieties of plants with new more attractive names, those peddling fantastical cures for ills to those peddling 'easy' beekeeping methods. Look a person straight in the eye, tell them the honest truth and guess what, most people will accept all the caveats without question.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> This is exactly the example which a serious person should use to differentiate themselves.





crofter said:


> So true, but I have to admit becoming more and more browned off when I perceive lop sided encouragement and unbalanced portrayal of probable outcomes.





ursa_minor said:


> Look a person straight in the eye, tell them the honest truth and guess what, most people will accept all the caveats without question.


I agree with all these sentiments- I appreciate a square deal and earnestly try to employ the Golden Rule in my own dealings.

I am not defending Dr. Leo on the basis that I necessarily agree with his approach - only that I think we do well to apply a similar standard to all purveyors of apicultural products and services.

Truth be known, most bee industry marketers can probably be accused of possibly glossing-over some of the less attractive or less successful aspects of their product or service. 

As @crofter sagely reminds us from time to time: 'Caveat Emptor'.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> only that I think we do well to apply a similar standard to all purveyors of apicultural products and services.


Yep.
Just like the cases where some unsuspecting nuc buyers honestly think that the nucleus queen was producing excellent laying pattern at the point of sale (see recent talk).
Only to be reminded by some Beesource persons  that the brood and the queen (just purchased) are NOT necessarily even related.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have seen it written that a corporation's first responsibility is to their shareholders return on investment. Dr. Leo does not have the same corporate image up front so he will take more Flak than Mann Lake for instance. We can lament about it but really the situation amounts to "whatever the market will bear". There are lots of far worse operators than this.
Some people that do speaking engagements dont purvey such a large component of wishful thinking. Thinking of Michael Palmer or Roger Patterson; they are not trying to capitalize on the dreams of the innocents.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Frank:

You make some good counter-points on this score. Two thoughts:

1. Dr. Leo makes quite an emphasis that he is plowing company profits back into preserving Ozark wildness- so he may take more of a 'corporate' approach to profit taking under a perspective of supporting the greater good.

2. Most people make assumptions about Dr. Leo's approach without ever having been to a seminar. There is a reason there is a paucity of videos online of his talks- he wants people to pay for the service he is offering. Good or ill I'd suggest it is difficult to develop a full appreciation for what he is suggesting people do unless you've been to hear what he actually has to say.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> Maybe so, but if they are scared out of buying with the truth then so be it, is it better they learn after they have lost multiple hives to mismanagement caused by not telling them the whole truth? I think not.
> 
> The glossing over serves no purpose except to discourage those who fail when they follow the proposed method and they then feel they must be terrible at beekeeping, terrible at caring for bees and just terrible at the whole business. If they go in with eyes wide open to all the pitfalls they will come out better at the end of it without feeling like a total incompetent. Beekeeping is hard, selling it as anything but is IMO misrepresenting the truth in order to garner sales.
> 
> Slick marketing strategies that gloss over the reality tick me off, right from those who sell old varieties of plants with new more attractive names, those peddling fantastical cures for ills to those peddling 'easy' beekeeping methods.* Look a person straight in the eye, tell them the honest truth *and guess what, most people will accept all the caveats without question.


I tried that a couple times.
looked the person in the eye and said "you are not the kind of person to be a bee keeper" and "it is a waste of my time to help you, I decline the invitation"
I had several people say , why were you so hard on her, you really broke her bubble etc.

to save face I now need to sugar coat it with "I really do not have the time" etc.

so there also are people who cannot handle the truth.

been on both sides of this

GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

crofter said:


> I have seen it written that a corporation's first responsibility is to their shareholders return on investment. Dr. Leo does not have the same corporate image up front so he will take more Flak than Mann Lake for instance. We can lament about it but really the situation amounts to "whatever the market will bear". There are lots of far worse operators than this.
> Some people that do speaking engagements dont purvey such a large component of wishful thinking. Thinking of Michael Palmer or Roger Patterson; they are not trying to capitalize on the dreams of the innocents.


As a retired software engineer I can say that both free Open Source and for profit Microsoft, Apple and tons of others make good software.... I think Dr.Leo, Michel Palmer and Roger Patterson do good to beekeeping. It is your choice if you want to stay with beekeeper's Open Source or pay for the know-how or use both.


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

jtgoral said:


> As a retired software engineer...


It's funny, I'm in training to become one.
Software engineer's seem to pick up quite interesting hobby's. 😄



jtgoral said:


> I can say that both free Open Source and for profit Microsoft, Apple and tons of others make good software.... It is your choice if you want to stay with beekeeper's Open Source or pay for the know-how or use both.


It's like with my code schooling. There is a MASSIVE amount of free code tutorials and info. out there on the web today. And while I utilize some of that great, free information, to help me with my studies, we decided to pay for a pro membership with Codeacadamy.com instead. And I must say that the paid schooling has been worth EVERY PENNY!
The amount of well presented information at this site is amazing, and it would probably be hard to find a curriculum, like this, for free anywhere else on the web!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jtgoral said:


> As a retired software engineer I can say that both free Open Source and for profit Microsoft, Apple and tons of others make good software.... I think Dr.Leo, Michel Palmer and Roger Patterson do good to beekeeping. It is your choice if you want to stay with beekeeper's Open Source or pay for the know-how or use both.


Can you please clarify the significance of this in terms other than computer related?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

crofter said:


> Can you please clarify the significance of this in terms other than computer related?


My second and third sentences say it.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

jtgoral said:


> As a retired software engineer I can say that both free Open Source and for profit Microsoft, Apple and tons of others make good software.... I think Dr.Leo, Michel Palmer and Roger Patterson do good to beekeeping. It is your choice if you want to stay with beekeeper's Open Source or pay for the know-how or use both.


Yes it is the person's choice to pay or not pay for information. Yet, if Apple had you pay for a class and then gave you software that would crash every year in the fall from a virus if you followed their method of running it, and still marketed their way as the best, but Microsoft provided the same software for free and told you of the pitfalls of the methods of running it so you could mitigate or at least understand how to avoid the crash would you not say that Microsoft at least was a bit more open and honest??


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jtgoral said:


> My second and third sentences say it.


The meaning of the second sentence is clear; In the first and the third there appears to me to be something like talking behind your hand. Talking behind your hand is an analogy of trying to be mysterious or equivocal about your meaning; spit it out!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> Yes it is the person's choice to pay or not pay for information. Yet, if Apple had you pay for a class and then gave you software that would crash every year in the fall from a virus if you followed their method of running it, and still marketed their way as the best, but Microsoft provided the same software for free and told you of the pitfalls of the methods of running it so you could mitigate or at least understand how to avoid the crash would you not say that Microsoft at least was a bit more open and honest??


Being in IT myself, I very much like this open-software/free-software vs. the closed-software/proprietary-software comparison.
Yes, we at my work depend on the paid-for proprietary-software - but surely our system does not crash and burn at the end of every summer (predictably too!).


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## Hoot Owl Lane Bees (Feb 24, 2012)

My wife and I had lunch with Dr. Leo and the author of Beekeeping with a smile many years ago at the Mo. State Convention. 
I cant recall his name and he passed away about a year later.
He was asking all kinds of questions about my Lang hives and he was very interested in my methods.
Dr. Leo on the other hand insisted that I was doing it all wrong even though its been working for 30 years for me.
Even my wife who was there for the crafting competition was very offended by his comments.
I am only about 60 miles from him now and still don't care for his methods.
I have had phone calls from people asking what to do about there bees and first question is what kind of hive do they have. If they say one like Dr. Leo has I tell them to call him. Reply He wants to charge to answer questions.
My reply I have no idea how his hives work and wish them luck.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Hoot Owl Lane Bees said:


> My wife and I had lunch with Dr. Leo and the author of Beekeeping with a smile many years ago at the Mo. State Convention.
> I cant recall his name and he passed away about a year later.
> He was asking all kinds of questions about my Lang hives and he was very interested in my methods.
> Dr. Leo on the other hand insisted that I was doing it all wrong even though its been working for 30 years for me.
> ...


Of course those people can come to Beesource and get free advice here.
Some of us here know how Dr. Leo hives work. 

But people also have Google and Youtube (and Beesource "search" function)..
Totally free to use. 
And, frankly, I'd sent people away to do their own searching (instead the spending my time rehashing the same old subjects for them).

Speaking of the "wrong ways" is wrong.
There are preferred ways.
Those preferred ways should fit your needs and preferences and abilities.
However (and this is my own rant) - most people are plainly unaware of the options and are very rigid about it too - this is where I will support Dr. Leo (just will not charge to answer questions, but because I don't need to charge and don't have to answer either).


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Litsinger said:


> Most people make assumptions about Dr. Leo's approach without ever having been to a seminar. *There is a reason there is a paucity of videos online of his talks- he wants people to pay for the service he is offering.* Good or ill I'd suggest it is difficult to develop a full appreciation for what he is suggesting people do unless you've been to hear what he actually has to say.


Does it not occur to you that there might be another, 'more suspect' reason, such as avoiding widespread criticism and/or ridicule ?

I don't think it's always necessary to have first-hand experience of something in order to form a judgement regarding it. For example, you wouldn't expect those who legislate against harmful drugs such as heroin to have had first-hand experience of addiction before passing appropriate laws. To be aware of their effect upon others is considered adequate knowledge - likewise towards socially harmful phenomena, such as religious (and beekeeping ?) cults.

I hold negative views about Sharashkin, based primarily upon his 'guru' status, his intolerance of other proven beekeeping methods, and his unrelenting marketing and self-promotion.
LJ


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## BEE J (10 mo ago)

Hoot Owl Lane Bees said:


> I cant recall his name and he passed away about a year later.
> He was asking all kinds of questions about my Lang hives and he was very interested in my methods.


His name is Fedor Lazutin (I'm a fan  ). The fact that he was interested in your success, and open to new ideas is a great indicator.

He sounds like he acts the way he writes -that he was truly more interested in the benefit of the bees than selling his hive or program. Also, from what I've read he's not against other ways of beekeeping than his, he said if the work why not use them?

Right now I am following his system of beekeeping but may later modify or change completely to what works for me and my bees.

(P.s I think it's so cool that you got to have lunch with him, I wish I could have met him myself).


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## Hoot Owl Lane Bees (Feb 24, 2012)

Yes that was him. I have his book at home in Mo. but we are in Pa. due to a family emergency.
We were very surprised at the differences in opinions being they were traveling on tore together.
I may reread it this winter.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

little_john said:


> Does it not occur to you that there might be another, 'more suspect' reason, such as avoiding widespread criticism and/or ridicule ?


You might be right, LJ. I can only go by the rationale he gave at the conference I participated in. And good point about the need for first-hand experience- in such cases we tend to rely upon the opinions of sources we trust and/or those who have first-hand experience.


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## birddog (May 10, 2016)

Don't drink the kool-aid,


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

birddog said:


> Don't drink the kool-aid,


Was just a sip, have sense enough to not down the whole pitcher!  

Interesting thread, now understand where the animosity is directed. No need to feel shame in enjoying the book.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Was just a sip, have sense enough to not down the whole pitcher!
> 
> Interesting thread, now understand where the animosity is directed. No need to feel shame in enjoying the book.


William,
i ordered a couple of the books from his site. the class caused me sticker shock, considering the travel and overnight costs as well.
there are nuggets in the books, and well worth the read.
IF you have the funds, and like the bee vacation idea, then by all means go.
not sure "all in" is the way to go with his methods, but I ended up building the double deep long lang from the plans section of his book, was a good decision, the hive works different and is managed different, than the lang ones ,I also have. I have 2 today I am about to go out and make 5-7 NUCs as I pulled the queen 10 days ago from the tan one.
for this function they are great. last year I make 6 NUCs after one was "left to swarm"









if there is room in your bee world for some additional ideas, then Leo can be a source, tempered with what you already know.
IMO starting there and only having his "ways" can lead you off the trail.
your base of knowledge should suffice to keep you from over indulging in the Kool aid.

good luck

GG


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

William Bagwell said:


> Interesting thread, now understand where the animosity is directed. *No need to feel shame in enjoying the book.*



I found it to be a strange read ...
It's purported to be a book written by Lazutin, and* edited* by Sharashkin - only it's not: at least not in my understanding of the word "edited". It begins very much as Lazutin's work (or certainly appears so) - as it makes references to specific regions of Russia where the natural approach to beekeeping has been feasible - but, further on in the book it gradually becomes apparent that the primary aim of the book has surreptitiously shifted towards hive designs marketed by HorizontalHive.com - references to which, by the way, occur* seventeen times* within the book. (I was able to count these quite effortlessly as I possess a .pdf copy of the book which I pulled off the Internet. Whether this is a legitimate copy or not, I really couldn't say)

There are quite a few errors in the book, such as Varroa mites attaching themselves to the bees' neck (rather than burying themselves under the abdominal plates), and the Layens Hive having been invented by Georges de Layens in 1864 for use in mountainous areas, which afterwards became popular in Russia. 

But Layens did NOT invent the hive which now bears his name - he popularised an already existing hive by writing a book about it. It is not known who actually invented the hive, nor when, and - as it so closely resembles hive types found in the Ukraine and surrounding districts - it's far more likely that it's origin is to be found there, and that at some point the hive 'migrated' into France. It has certainly become popular for use in the mountainous areas of Spain for example, but this occurred *after *the popularisation by Layens of a pre-existing design.

From the Preface of his book, *"The Breeding of Bees by Modern Methods, Theory and Practice in Seventeen Lessons", Second Edition, 1879*:
"*Not being an inventor of new beehives,* we have simply chosen, among the best models, that which seemed to us the easiest to manage, and the most in harmony with the natural instincts of the bees. Moreover,* this hive has already been proven in the hands of many beekeepers*."

And, from the Sixth Lesson:
"Before describing* the hive I have adopted,* which will be the subject of my next lesson, let me tell you that* I am not an inventor of hives,* for there are already too many; I have simply *adopted a model that has been proven for many years.*"

So - as it has now become clear that de Layens didn't actually invent the beehive which today bears his name, can we expect Sharashkin to correct this error within his website and book ? I somehow doubt it.
LJ


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

little_john said:


> I found it to be a strange read ...
> It's purported to be a book written by Lazutin, and* edited* by Sharashkin - only it's not: at least not in my understanding of the word "edited". It begins very much as Lazutin's work (or certainly appears so) - as it makes references to specific regions of Russia where the natural approach to beekeeping has been feasible - but, further on in the book it gradually becomes apparent that the primary aim of the book has surreptitiously shifted towards hive designs marketed by HorizontalHive.com - references to which, by the way, occur* seventeen times* within the book. (I was able to count these quite effortlessly as I possess a .pdf copy of the book which I pulled off the Internet. Whether this is a legitimate copy or not, I really couldn't say)


Noticed that as well, just never thought to count. Used copies of the first edition are still available, slightly higher price. Curious what (if anything) got cut to make room for the additions in the 2nd. Anyone have both and knows?

@Gray Goose which one do you recommend next? Have Beekeeping With a Smile.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> I found it to be a strange read ...
> It's purported to be a book written by Lazutin, and* edited* by Sharashkin - only it's not: at least not in my understanding of the word "edited". It begins very much as Lazutin's work (or certainly appears so) - as it makes references to specific regions of Russia where the natural approach to beekeeping has been feasible - but, further on in the book it gradually becomes apparent that the primary aim of the book has surreptitiously shifted towards hive designs marketed by HorizontalHive.com - references to which, by the way, occur* seventeen times* within the book. (I was able to count these quite effortlessly as I possess a .pdf copy of the book which I pulled off the Internet. Whether this is a legitimate copy or not, I really couldn't say)


Now hold it.
I NEVER read the Sharashkin "edited" version.
Why?
Why should I - if I can the read the very *original *by Lazutin.

Now I see the *first time *about references to the HorizontalHive.com in the book by Lazutin (clearly an afterthought and a marketing gimmick).
Thanks @little_john for bringing up this curious fact.

So now - let me remind about the fact that Lazutin in his book *downgraded the Ukrainian hives* - because in his view the Ukrainian frame was too small and that promoted excessive swarming.
Well, the Layen's frame is *smaller *than Ukrainian frame.
By extension, Lazutin downgraded the Layens hive as well (as even less suitable due to even smaller frame).

Also - Lazutin was not aware (nothing mentioned in the book) about vertical compact hives (various Warre-based off-shoots).
He is praising the idea of the bee tree - and yet not a single reference to the vertical hives that I can recall (maybe I forget).

Had he familiarize himself with the ergonomic vertical hives, he very well could have changed his tune.
We'll never know now. Sad.

All of his speculations are based on the traditional Dadant and Root (Lang in the US) hives.
So he ends up with his Lazutin frame.

I will just simply state, the original author operated off rather a limited, narrow knowledge base.

All in all - the readers of the "edited" book must understand - it is market oriented "edit" of the original manuscript.
There is nothing wrong with it; I am sure it is a good and useful resource still - as long as you understand the entire context.

And btw, the translating and editing of the book was still a great deal of work - nothing to be scoffed at.
And btw, I will give all kinds of credit to the said "edited" book because it still promotes alternative and worthy method of non-commercial, *ergonomic beekeeping. *
I am yet to do something similar about a different hive (just placed onto a back burner).


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Noticed that as well, just never thought to count. Used copies of the first edition are still available, slightly higher price. Curious what (if anything) got cut to make room for the additions in the 2nd. Anyone have both and knows?
> 
> @Gray Goose which one do you recommend next? Have Beekeeping With a Smile.


as I recall the other book I ordered was :
_Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives:
A Complete Guide to Apiculture_
Georges de Layens & Gaston Bonnier
Dr. Leo Sharashkin (editor) 

has a lot of basics
hopefully you can find one used somewhere he wants 50$ for one.

GG


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Gray Goose said:


> as I recall the other book I ordered was :
> _*Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives: *A Complete Guide to Apiculture, _Georges de Layens & Gaston Bonnier
> Dr. Leo Sharashkin (editor)
> *has a lot of basics*
> hopefully you can find one used somewhere *he wants 50$ for one.*


That book: 'Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives' has given me one helluva headache ...

Sharashkin describes this book by Layens and Bonnier as being a *classic work* ... and yet when I searched BnF Gallica (digital reproductions of historical works - now public domain - sourced from within the collections of the National Library of France), plenty of titles for both Layens and Bonnier (both as joint authors and separate) were returned ... but nothing with the title 'Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives', either with an English title or the French equivalent. So it would appear that it has never existed under that title.

So I turned to the WorldCat, where it was pretty-much the same story: plenty of 'Complete Courses in Apiculture', but no 'Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives'.
That is, until on a hunch I tried "Layens, Horizontal Hive" as search terms. That threw up the title "Keeping bees in horizontal hives: a complete guide to apiculture" by Layens and Bonnier and, although the WorldCat says there have been no reviews - there was indeed one right at the bottom of the page: Keeping bees in horizontal hives : a complete guide to apiculture (Book, 2017) [WorldCat.org]

This review was from Kafl of GoodReads, who writes:
*"In parts quite interesting but a lot of it deals with skep hives and the plans for beekeepers to transfer their hives from the fixed frame[sic] skeps to moveable frame hives. I would love to say the book gave me ideas how to transfer my vertical hives to horizontal hives but i can't say it did. But still an interesting read with some new aspects." *

Now that's pretty-much how I would describe the 1879 Layens 2nd Edition which I've been translating (and which should be freely available in a week or so) - the only obvious significant difference in the later (1897) Bonnier edition is the change from reed-based hive walls to a 100% wooden structure - but the emphasis on transferring bees from skeps to a movable deep comb hive appears to be pretty-much the same.

It was only when I visited the GoodReads site: Kafl's review of Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives that Sharashkin's name appeared as the 'editor' of that book - so - mystery solved. 

At minimum Sharashkin has changed Layens & Bonnier's book title - no doubt for his own marketing purposes. Whether or not he's adulterated the text as with Lazutin's book I really couldn't say as I've not been able to source a free copy of it - and I ain't gonna buy one at those prices. Seems that man has no shame, and no respect for historical authenticity.

If anyone wants a copy of the original "Cours complet d'apiculture" by Layens & Bonnier - in French - it can be freely downloaded from: Cours complet d'apiculture : (culture des abeilles) / par MM. Georges de Layens,... et Gaston Bonnier,... | Gallica
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Well, thanks to LJ's hints above, I looked up a physical copy of the book in my own library system.
Cool, I thought.
Let me then order it and look, because I can.

Well - it seems someone borrowed it *permanently*.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Saw this post on FB and I was reminded of this thread:


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> Saw this post on FB and I was reminded of this thread:
> 
> View attachment 70601


something about old dogs and new tricks come to mind.
nice to see the adjustment.

A step in the right direction.
who know maby he is reading Gregs threads under an assumed name

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> something about old dogs and new tricks come to mind.
> nice to see the adjustment.
> 
> A step in the right direction.
> ...


Even there he missed to underline *a crucial fact* - catching a swarm does not automatically equal to obtaining "local bees" (let alone "feral bees").
What is so hard to clarify to your followers about this?

Teach them about the populations a little bit - some will get the point.

A swarm of bees is *a sample point* of your local bee population status.
You have lots of ferals - then the swarm could be feral (and local, by implication).
You have lots of imported/commercial bees - then the swarm is more likely to be an imported bee (whatever it happens to be).

And yet - the idea of catching swarms of "local bees" and then keeping them "treatment-free" keeps going around and around.
Again - try that in a Chicago suburb and see what "local bees" you get.
And so trivialization of this "local bee" idea is a disservice.

Back to Sharashkin, the lecturer, to make that correction. 

PS: I will give that chasing the swarms in the highly imported location is still a fun lottery - you could catch a swarm of MH or ankle-biters just as well (these are ALL imports);
this is one reason I will NOT automatically re-queen a swarm - that would be a silly thing to do;
but I will also NOT hive a swarm without treating them clean - 90% of them die without an OA shower as my experience has it by now


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