# Black Locust!



## bsharp

I'm sure this has been beat to death somewhere here, but I haven't come across anywhere that specifically covers my question. It looks like I'm going to have some land to plant on and I'm really interested in Locust...the problem is that I can't seem to find anywhere that states how long it takes for seedlings to bloom. 

I was interested in tulip poplars until I learned that it would be 15-20 years before I could expect forage for my bees. Now I'm happy to plan(t) for the future, but right now I'm more interested in shorter-term investments. I already plan to do clover/alfalfa in the fields, but the idea of nectar producing trees is very appealing to me.

To reiterate, how many years until I can expect Black Locust seedlings to bloom?

Thanks,
Brandon


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## WLC

Seedlings? You should really buy trees from an nursery. They should already be more than a few years old.


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## TalonRedding

bsharp,

The answer to your question depends on the soil. I personally have seen black locust bloom at 2 and 3 years of age. But what you need to consider is the amount of forage you are providing with trees vs legumes. You would have to plant hundreds, even thousands of trees to make a difference in forage. Also, black locust grows everywhere across our state. I'm sure there are plenty of locusts in your area within the 8,000 acres that your bees will be foraging. No worries there for sure. The legumes will be the most bang for your buck simply due to bloom density. Good for a dearth too. 
It won't hurt anything to plant trees, but it won't make a huge difference until everyone in your area did it. You actually have a large amount of forage in your area already.


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## UTvolshype

Best for Middle Tennessee would be sumac species, clovers, Hollies, privet and basswood trees. You likely have enough Tulip Popular trees in your area. Black locust is a short lived tree and a questionable honey source most years in middle and eastern Tn.


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## RudyT

you might want to check out Kim Flottum's _Better Beekeeping_ whose planting plan includes both trees and ground plants (like legumes).


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## bigbluebee

Black locust is a legume and blooms prolifically, when it does. That is the down side to them. They may only have a really good bloom every 4 or 5 years. Then it only lasts about 10-14 days. Once you get them established they grow like weeds, really. They expand from suckers off shallow roots. I have seen trees as small as 4' in bloom


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## Birdman

If it were me I would plant something that would bloom late in the year, locust bloom in the spring along with every thing else.


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## Sharpbees

The biggest problem with Locust is that they bloom early in the season. If the temps go below 40 they stop producing nectar, or at least that's what I've been told. I am in central KY and many years the bees don't get to work them due to weather, i.e. rain, cold temps, and such. For faster return clovers and such will give quicker results. Basswood are also good trees for honey but like Locust they can be sporadic. I would check on bee bee trees, I have no experience with these but it's my understanding they are reliable producers and bloom in just a few years. Honeysuckle bush, not vines, can be good producers in certain soil types in others not so much. The mint family are good nectar plants also and bloom mid summer here. Planting for just bees isn't making good use of your land and resources, IMO. I would plant something that I could harvest and sell to get a better return on my investment like fruit trees or something.


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## Phoebee

Plant 'em? My experience around our WV site is that they are the first tree to colonize an open field, and they grow like weeds. Until we decided to take up beekeeping I was pulling up every one we found on our property. Fortunately there is no shortage in the surrounding area.

I'm also starting to appreciate all the huge poplars around here.


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## billabell

I cut down a small stand (4 trees 30' that were dead and dying) of black locust on my property. This was five years ago. I now have a stand of about 20 locust in a nice grove like configuration that came up as suckers from those roots. They are about 10-12' tall and half of them bloomed last year. The bees loved them but they got washed out in a week of rain. There is another grove on my property of about 25 trees that are about 7 years old and 12-15' and have yet to bloom. So I guess the answer as to how long to bloom is like so many things in nature-it depends.
We are letting our open lands revert to a natural state (about 6 acres) with some management to weed out undesirables to a certain extent and planting a lot of shrubs for their quick "turn around time". You might want to look at shrubs and hedgerows.


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## Michael B

In my state of Massachusetts, it is a prohibited plant. Illegal to sell plants or seeds or propagate.

There has been a large push to remove it from the environment. It has become an very invasive non-native plant.


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## BeeCurious

This might be interesting to you :

http://www.coldstreamfarm.net/p-127-black-locust-robinia-pseudoacacia.aspx


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## TalonRedding

Michael B said:


> In my state of Massachusetts, it is a prohibited plant. Illegal to sell plants or seeds or propagate.
> 
> There has been a large push to remove it from the environment. It has become an very invasive non-native plant.


I had no idea that it was a non-native there. Wow. You learn something everyday!


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## The Valley

TalonRedding said:


> I had no idea that it was a non-native there. Wow. You learn something everyday!


I am from NH, and it sure was native there, so I am not sure how it wouldn't be native in MA.


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## Rader Sidetrack

An interesting history of the introduction of black locust to Massachusetts and likely other New England states:

http://arnoldia.arboretum.harvard.e...t-robinia-pseudoacacia-l-to-massachusetts.pdf


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## The Valley

Rader Sidetrack said:


> An interesting history of the introduction of black locust to Massachusetts and likely other New England states:
> 
> http://arnoldia.arboretum.harvard.e...t-robinia-pseudoacacia-l-to-massachusetts.pdf


Interesting, I had read of colonists using it for fence posts, much like we do here, a post will outlive a man. I am still wondering why some would call it invasive if it has in fact been there over 200 years at least. It is great fire wood here too, good seasoned black locust is a HOT fire.
While on the subject of this tree, I used black locust posts and boards to place my hives on, I was even thinking of how rugged a few boxes made out of it would be, it would last near forever and wouldn't need paint. The Amish here will cut you any size boards you want of it. We have a lot of it here, and I still wouldn't call it invasive.


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## Michael Bush

>There has been a large push to remove it from the environment. It has become an very invasive non-native plant.

It is a native American plant. It would have been planted in MA sooner or later by someone, I'm surprised the American Indians didn't beat the colonists to it and then the colonists would have thought it was native... in fact at that point in time it would be. This whole take that everything non-native is evil is a very interesting view since based on current beliefs that would send all Europeans home and get rid of all the honeybees...


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## TalonRedding

Michael Bush said:


> >There has been a large push to remove it from the environment. It has become an very invasive non-native plant.
> 
> It is a native American plant. It would have been planted in MA sooner or later by someone, I'm surprised the American Indians didn't beat the colonists to it and then the colonists would have thought it was native... in fact at that point in time it would be. This whole take that everything non-native is evil is a very interesting view since based on current beliefs that would send all Europeans home and get rid of all the honeybees...


Our student chapter of The Wildlife Society had an open forum discussion on this very topic when I was in school. I approached the topic with the same point of view and question you just asked. I used the same logic and applied it to all of us, our dogs, cats, livestock, crops, popular flower varieties, etc.... LOL, the silence that followed was deafening! Needless to say, it absolutely killed the discussion and everyone went home. From that point on, the discussion was allocated to the topic of "invasive exotics".


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## billabell

I agree. The earth is evolving and has been since it's inception. In that context "native" would have to be viewed in relation to a time period. Most probably everything was "non-native" at one point. Man is part of nature and if his/her actions cause a plant/insect/animal to establish in a given locale 
that doesn't mean it is bad and should be eradicated.


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## Vance G

Black Locust won't grow in Montana, at least on the cold side of the mountains.


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## Michael Bush

Most of our "weeds" are nonnative and were brought here on purpose by the Europeans as medicine. I dont' think we should eradicte the apple trees... or pears etc. etc. etc...


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## Phoebee

Michael Bush said:


> >There has been a large push to remove it from the environment. It has become an very invasive non-native plant.
> 
> It is a native American plant. It would have been planted in MA sooner or later by someone, I'm surprised the American Indians didn't beat the colonists to it and then the colonists would have thought it was native... in fact at that point in time it would be. This whole take that everything non-native is evil is a very interesting view since based on current beliefs that would send all Europeans home and get rid of all the honeybees...


Uuuh, white man come, bring stinging fly, and plant ugly thorn tree from our enemies on the Pawtomac.

My favorite example is the sportsmen all up in arms over the invasion of "snakeheads" on the Potomac River. They weep over the devastation of their favorite sportfish, widemouth bass. But if you check, those were introduced on the Potomac in the 1800's, and were the snakeheads of their day.

Personally, I'd like to flay alive the people who introduced gypsy moth and the "Tree of Heaven." Or Dutch Elm Disease. I'm not a fan of the wooly adelgid, either. Oh, and how do you guys feel about the varroa mite?

Some are good, though. Did you know earthworms are not native to most of North America, either? And most of our food crops are imported.

I actually feel guilty about introducing Apis m. to our little paradise. We have a healthy stock of native bees (although I find a badminton racket can make individual carpenter bees less healthy when they bore into the cabin). We're limiting our hives in part because we don't want to totally displace the native pollinators.


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## Michael Bush

I think introducing new species is unwise as we never know the outcome until later. But trying to eradicate what has already become part of the ecosystem is a waste of effort that only unbalances things more.

As a Lakota I definitely see a down side to invasive species and varieties... but what is here is here.


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## The Valley

Michael Bush said:


> I think introducing new species is unwise as we never know the outcome until later. But trying to eradicate what has already become part of the ecosystem is a waste of effort that only unbalances things more.
> 
> As a Lakota I definitely see a down side to invasive species and varieties... *but what is here is here*.


Wisdom spoken, very easy to get on to a cause and fail to see the world around it.


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## Goran

I adore when is black locust forage, weather appropriate and bees in top form. In peak of forage they can bring easily over 10kg per day per hive ( some say 18kg) in our conditions.


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## The Valley

Black Locust is our first major flow if conditions are right, and the honey is delectable.


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## R.Varian

We live in the Mts. of W.Va.and the locust has only bloomed 1 time in 3 years,maybe this year


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## Dreyadin

It has it's good and bad points.. higher BTU's for firewood, nitrogen fixing, can handle coppice, pretty good rot resistance for use as posts... but it's also toxic to livestock.

(Earthworms- separate tangent.. we do have some natives- many are being pushed out by invasives. Glaciated areas around the Great Lakes & the forests of the NE are being altered by their presence as that ecosystem evolved without them. Sugar maples in particular they are finding to be more stressed.)

Can't stop it.. with movement comes new introductions. (Can put on football padding/ helmet, grab a net and come fishing not far from here where the Asian carp are plenty.)


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## roberto487

I live in northern NJ and I got 5 black locust trees from the forest in November of 2012. they lined the road. They were dormant, I planted them and they sprouted late spring. They trunck were about 1" circumference and over 5 feet tall. Of course, I pruned them. They grow quickly. Oh, only one did not make it. The root rotted at the ball joint. The best thing they were free. I have seen linden trees in the forest too, but I already paid a hefty price for one. I already have my eyes on a sassafra tree at my place of work. So, for forest trees, don't go to the nursery, wait until the ones in the forest go dormant and dig them up and plant it right away on your property. If you still insist on a nursery stock wait for late fall or early winter when they are heavily discounted. I bought a $159 tulip tree at 75% discount for $40 and a $200 Raintree for $50 and a bunch of cleomatis and viney plants for less than $20 dollars each. Bottomline, the ones in the forest are hardier and will transplant well in late fall when they are dormant.


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## Phoebee

Thanks, Roberto, because you make me realize how lucky we are to be surrounded by most of what you've been paying for.


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## Dave1958

Finding black locust of any size is difficult on any farm of my family. We have used them as fence posts for years, and cut the suckers off ASAP because the thorns would puncture tires. Now I'm beekeeping tryingto change 75 years of mindset. My brother is excited as he thinks I'm growing fence posts for him


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## tsmullins

Goran said:


> I adore when is black locust forage, weather appropriate and bees in top form. In peak of forage they can bring easily over 10kg per day per hive ( some say 18kg) in our conditions.


:thumbsup:

Like others have said, we don't have a big black locust flow every year. Last year was a very good locust flow here. My biggest is maybe 20' tall and has not bloomed yet. I have seen trees as small as six or seven feet bloom.

Shane


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## tsmullins

The Valley said:


> Black Locust is our first major flow if conditions are right, and the honey is delectable.


Black Locust is one of my favorite types of honey as well. To me, it is better than our storied sourwood.

Shane


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## Dave1958

I didn't grow up knowing what black locust was, but my dad cut all those thorn trees for fence post and burnt the rest so it wouldn't stob a tractor tire


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## Pete O

There are many, many black locust trees in my New Jersey area, many 80 feet high; will the bees fly to these altitudes for pollen?


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## Vance G

Yes and for the nectar. I understand Black locust can be a good flow in certain years.


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## canoemaker

You could plant several acres of black locust as a cash crop. Once established, you could cut trees for firewood on a rotational basis. New saplings spring up from the stump with vigor. You would have a perpetual source of income from firewood, and in years of good bloom, the possibility of some great honey. Also, as mentioned in your opening post, you could begin with a cover crop of clover.


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## spunky

Black locust is a good honey when it comes here; this yr we will miss it with what looks like is a early dry period. I would plant late summer forage , not spring/early summer producers


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## Michael Palmer

I planted 100 Locust whips in about 1985. After 10 years they were 15' tall and covered with blossoms…but not a huge nectar source yet. Today they're 30' tall and have a huge number of blossoms.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

black locust trees bloom fast here but are half the time low yielding. The Virginia creeper kills many of ours. I would focus on evodia (bee bee trees) instead. if it is a valuable tree you want.


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## SeaCucumber

There are huge quantities of red maple where I live, and I have a forest of mostly that. I read about locust, and it seemed superior. I want to make a bow or axe handle out of it. It would be nice to have some nitrogen fixers in the forest. I have some inoculant. I have a friend with a large locust tree. I don't know if its black or honey locust, but it has the large spikes. Can I air layer it?


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## spunky

Black locust is a good source of some tasty honey here; if the spring has average temps and decent amount of rain. My 2 bee tree seedlings did not survive the winter. I planted a few pussy willows this yr and will try and grow some black locust from seedlings, just for fun. All the tulip poplars have been logged here, sad.


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## tsmullins

bsharp said:


> To reiterate, how many years until I can expect Black Locust seedlings to bloom?


Mine took around four to bloom.


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## Westhill

SeaCucumber, the one with the big spikes is Honey Locust, which, ironically, does not help bees make honey. It's called that because the pods have a sweet-tasting gel in them, but it's not a nectar/bee tree at all. If you're looking for a bee tree, Black Locust is the one.


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## BattenkillJB

Here in upstate New York Black Locust trees are common. The issue is how invasive they are and how they create a monoculture due to root suckers that extend for hundreds of feet. I have them on my farm and have a love hate relationship with them. I prefer my forests with the natural mixed hardwood. The wetland completes the bee forage picture. The bees are bringing in pollen in March from the poplar and willows. Soon the red maples will be a source. When the locusts do bloom so does everything else. Not something the bees really need.


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## missybee

Per our bee inspector if we did not have any locust , where we are at, our bees would not do as well. We are in the middle of corn and soybean farms.


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