# Cell builder



## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

In my quest to learn this winter I have questions. Is it possible for the cell starter to also be the finisher? My thoughts were to take a ten frame deep and put capped and emerging frames in. I would have a frame feeder in so once the cell frame is placed in, you would have 7 frames of nurse bees. Would that be enough for 5-10 cells at a time? I am just thinking about the limited resources I may have and trying to optimize on them. How many frames of nurse bees would be enough for 5-10 cells at a time?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Yes, 7 frames of sealed and emerging brood would be good for up to 10 or 12 cells. Are you going to have a double deep split with an excluder and with the queen below, move the sealed brood above and allow the colony to start and finish the cells in the upper box? Or do you intend to move the brood and bees from a colony into a queenless deep and start the cells?


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

AR Beekeeper said:


> Yes, 7 frames of sealed and emerging brood would be good for up to 10 or 12 cells. Are you going to have a double deep split with an excluder and with the queen below, move the sealed brood above and allow the colony to start and finish the cells in the upper box? Or do you intend to move the brood and bees from a colony into a queenless deep and start the cells?


I was thinking in a queenless single deep


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

In that case I would shake in several more frames of nurse bees to start with, or put the queen and open brood in the top box over an excluder, sealed brood below, and an hour before adding the grafts in the bottom, move the top box with the queen onto a new bottom board behind the colony. Put it facing away from the cell building deep left on the original stand. This puts all the adults that oriented on the original stand in the cell builder to help care for and warm the grafts. After the cells are started and then sealed, you can move the deep with the queen back to the top position over the grafts. You can start/finish a few grafts continuously all season with this setup if you wish.


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Ok thanks


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Well, if you start with a strong colony, I would put the sealed brood and queen in the bottom box below an excluder, and the unsealed brood in the top box above excluder. Ten days later there will be no larvae in the top box. The sealed brood below the excluder will be emerging, giving the queen a place to lay. There will then be new larvae and the nurse bees will be located in the bottom box with the queen. Remove the hive from stand. Place top box on new bottom on original stand, bottom box on ground behind facing 180˚ away. Shake bees from open brood in bottom box, through excluder into cell builder (top box). Add pollen comb to middle of top box and in 3 hours, add graft next to pollen. Feed syrup. In 5 days, bring back queen-right bottom box to stand and cell builder on it over excluder. On day 10, harvest cells.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Is it possible for the cell starter to also be the finisher? 
Yes, using a cloak board to do this without having to move the hives off the stand.

Would that be enough for 5-10 cells at a time? Yes, with a strong hive anything is possible.

How many frames of nurse bees would be enough for 5-10 cells at a time? Try making a bee bomb with 10 frames of sealed broods and 5 more frames of nurse bees brushed in from another hive all full of bees.
I like to use a crowded 5 frame mating nuc for this set up when bee resources are limited. 

From the break down above:
Step 1) Well, if you start with a strong colony, I would put the sealed brood and queen in the bottom box below an excluder. <== This is so that after all the sealed broods have hatched the queen will have a place to lay in. See step #4 below. At the same time to prepare for the entire process moving forward.

2) and the unsealed brood in the top box above excluder. <==To separate them creating a brood less situation later on. See step # 9 below.
3) Ten days later there will be no larvae in the top box. <== Of course, they all should be capped by now.

4) The sealed brood below the excluder will be emerging, giving the queen a place to lay. <== See? Going back to step 1 above.
5) There will then be new larvae and the nurse bees will be located in the bottom box with the queen. <== On the 4th day, the new eggs will turn into little larvae. The nurse bees will move in to tend to them.

6) Remove the hive from stand. <== Preparing for the next transitional phase II adding more bees to the cell builder hive.
7) Place top box on new bottom on original stand, bottom box on ground behind facing 180˚ away. <== So you have switched the top and bottom box position and rotated the bottom box entrance facing the opposite direction too. The purpose is to allow all the foragers from the queen right hive to go inside the queen less cell starter/finisher. The top box should have all the capped broods already. See step #2 related above. All the foragers will be bringing in natural resources to the cell starter/finisher hive. What a brilliant idea!

8) Shake bees from open brood in bottom box, through excluder into cell builder (top box). <== So shake all the nurse bees from the bottom hive into the top hive through a queen excluder. That way the queen will not be shaken into the top box to make a queen less cell starter/finisher. The extra nurse bees should take care of the graft cells. If you have more nurse bees from other colonies then brush them in as well.

9) Add pollen comb to middle of top box and in 3 hours, add graft next to pollen. <== Yes, to make sure the cells are well fed. PBGBP P= pollen, G = grafted cells, B = capped broods. Put in a syrup jar feeder. wasba.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Graft-Free-Queen-Rearing-Morris-Ostrofsky.pdf on page 13 at the top left pic. See the queen cell development chart on page 7. Also put in a patty sub whether or not there is a flow on. 

10) Feed syrup. In 5 days, bring back queen-right bottom box to stand and cell builder on it over excluder. <== The reverse of step 6 & 7 above to put everything back to the normal set up again. So these cells will be finished later on. Will they be capped in another 2 days? Cells should be all capped on day 7.

11) On day 10, harvest cells. <== This is the good part!


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Thank you for the information. I will certainly follow what you all with more experience have done. I guess my question would be why do you need to have over a queen right colony? Why can't you just use a a deep packed with nurse bees? Just trying to be as efficient as possible and I do want quality queens. Try to self sufficient and sustainable. Are you placing over the queen right for even more nurse bees? Going to do this two to three times to attempt to get 10-20 queens, hopefully of course.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

"I am just thinking about the limited resources I may have and trying to optimize on them."

I guess my question would be why do you need to have over a queen right colony? 
Why can't you just use a a deep packed with nurse bees? 
Are you placing over the queen right for even more nurse bees?

You said with limited resources. So we don't know how much is limited that you have.
This is one method but not the only method to get a few good queens. And at the same time still preserving the queen right colony. 
Yes, you can definitely use a deep packed with nurse bees when resources are unlimited. You don't have to use a queen right hive. There is a way to make a "bee bomb" when you have all the nurse bees in the world to use. You literally have to let the grafted frame to sink in those thick glob of bees all over. Since you mention about the limited resources, this may not be the most efficient way to use them, right.
Yes, using a queen right hive will give you more nurse bees once more bees hatched later on. 

If you understand the method and process mentioned above this is a longer way to make the queen cells with limited resources. Again there are many other ways to accomplish the same task using other cell rearing method. This is only half of the equation after the cells are made. To be continue: The next step is 12). I'll let him explain more since I'm only trying to clarify what's happening at each step. Queen rearing is so flexible even with limited resources when you know how to do it. I only started with less than one frame of bees and a new laying queen. Been expanding every year since then. As of now I still have 2 big fat virgin queens waiting to be mated. Maybe in the Spring time they will or else....


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is it possible for the cell starter to also be the finisher?

Yes.

> My thoughts were to take a ten frame deep and put capped and emerging frames in. I would have a frame feeder in so once the cell frame is placed in, you would have 7 frames of nurse bees. Would that be enough for 5-10 cells at a time?

The density is the issue. You want CROWDED bees. It's not the number but the density that gives you well fed cells.

> I am just thinking about the limited resources I may have and trying to optimize on them. How many frames of nurse bees would be enough for 5-10 cells at a time?

I've seen two medium frames in a two frame nuc that was overflowing with bees raise four or five well fed queen cells. But if it was not crowded it would not work.


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## wvbeeguy (Feb 20, 2011)

maybe research "Cloake Board" have used it effectively, allows you to use one STRONG hive for both- works good for small number of queens, would not want to use it for large scale queen production. Internet search for Cloake Board pulls up an excellent article from Sue Colby. Mark


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Make sure in your builder/finisher that you have no young larvae up top when trying to start cells, for no other reason than eliminating those extra mouths to feed. I usually have several sealed brood frames up top, all open down below. I reorganize and run each builder/finisher every two weeks


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> The density is the issue. You want CROWDED bees. It's not the number but the density that gives you well fed cells.


Yeah, but crowded with nurse bees, not just any old bees.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

PyroBee said:


> I guess my question would be why do you need to have over a queen right colony? .


 it is my understanding that the best queens are produced in a supercedure situation having a queen on the other side of an excluder makes her pheromones weaker on the side she can't walk on, yet they are still there. so it re-creates a supercedure situation thus getting better well fed queens. Again, this is only Harley's interpretation of it so don't take that as gospel.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Yeah, but crowded with nurse bees, not just any old bees.

Any old bees works better than not being crowded but they are all nurse bees. If it's an assortment (simply a strong nuc that boomed to that level) it works fine. I do prefer to make a cell starter up as a "swarm box" with nurse bees, but that takes more resources and work.


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

Thanx for this thread. I have had queen cells survive to emergence in a regular hive. Is it possible to insert one or two grafted or punched cells into a regular production hive, perhaps on a half frame held in place with a clip and still get the desired results? I know I am showing my ignorance but it is worth the risk to more fully understand this entire process. Please further enlighten this "dumber than dirt" bee keeper. LP


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

So now you have 10 nice cells, limited resources, the problem that always got me was getting them mated. If I do a queen castle with 2 frames of bees each that requires 20 frames of bees in 5 queen castles, 20 new frames to replace the ones you had, and all the gear depending on what you will do with them when mated. I use Demaree swarm control to make my new queens and pull a new queen cell to a couple of queen castles. I am thinking about grafting just to try it or to requeen the entire operation this year so this is all great reading.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

larrypeterson said:


> Thanx for this thread. I have had queen cells survive to emergence in a regular hive. Is it possible to insert one or two grafted or punched cells into a regular production hive, perhaps on a half frame held in place with a clip and still get the desired results? I know I am showing my ignorance but it is worth the risk to more fully understand this entire process. Please further enlighten this "dumber than dirt" bee keeper. LP


Sure, as long as it's a populous queen less hive, and best if all the open brood is pulled out, which turns that regular hive into a cell builder


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Be sure to have your nucleus boxes made up for the number of queen cells you intend to graft. Make up a calendar and a checklist. Laminate them. You can mark on them with a grease pen, wipe it off later with a rag and Dawn detergent.

Enough nuc' boxes? Enough feeder frames? Enough nuc'-sized robber screens? Enough honey / pollen frames? Enough emerging brood? Mite treatment ordered for Day 19 after planting? (<= excellent opportunity to whack mites while bees are broodless with a "mild" treatment and start the nuc' out with no mites!) 32-oz cup of bees for each mating nuc? Enough 10-framers (or 8-framers) ready to move them into? Queen bank frame and cages ready for excess queens? Incubator up and running (not necessary, but nice to have!!!)

I build nuc's on the trailer for queen cell planting, then move them that night to a different yard 10 miles away.


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## McCoslin (Dec 4, 2013)

PyroBee said:


> In my quest to learn this winter I have questions. Is it possible for the cell starter to also be the finisher? My thoughts were to take a ten frame deep and put capped and emerging frames in. I would have a frame feeder in so once the cell frame is placed in, you would have 7 frames of nurse bees. Would that be enough for 5-10 cells at a time? I am just thinking about the limited resources I may have and trying to optimize on them. How many frames of nurse bees would be enough for 5-10 cells at a time?


Try this Pyro.. works well on limited resources:http://doorgarden.com/11/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

PyroBee said:


> In my quest to learn this winter I have questions. Is it possible for the cell starter to also be the finisher? My thoughts were to take a ten frame deep and put capped and emerging frames in. I would have a frame feeder in so once the cell frame is placed in, you would have 7 frames of nurse bees. Would that be enough for 5-10 cells at a time? I am just thinking about the limited resources I may have and trying to optimize on them. How many frames of nurse bees would be enough for 5-10 cells at a time?


PyroBee , do not try to complicate your life my friend. just because you heard the term outer space, does not mean you have to go there if you are a line pilot. the same goes for queens. just becsude you read of the starter , finisher colony, does not mean you need one. that is for those that actually do this for a living, because it allows them to make endless queen cells, and they work on a different cycle. 
all you need is a nice 5 frame nuck, packed with nurse bees, so when you prepare it, use 4 frames of capped brood, with the bees on them, and maybe 1 frame of honey. shake on top of that the bees from another 4-5 frames of brood. make sure that when you put the lid on your nuck box, you kill a ton ( just joking, do not kill them) but make sure the box is overflowing with bees, literally. use bees from multiple hives, i would use 5-6 hive to make this up. after that , just graft your frame, and put it in this nuc. feed a little bit of sugar water, and let them work. go back 10 days later, and place cellprotectors ( the roller cage type i find work great) over the capped cells. do not use them unless the cell is capped. and then let them hatch in there. go back 10 days later and get your hatched queens out. 
it is the fastest and easy way to make a few cells for your small operation. if you only need a couple of queens or so, just buy them, or do a walk away split. 

i hope this helps, and remember that simple is good in beekeeping. if something seems complicated, it is most likely a borred old man's winter project and there is most likely a simpler solution.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I agree with most of what Croc says, except for the part about letting the queens hatch inside the Cell Builder. 

You'll get much better success cutting the cells out of the frame and planting them into nuc's 10 days after grafting. Virgin queens don't waste much time fighting each other to death, or killing their sister queens still in the cells.

I also think grafting is far ans away better than a walk-away split. With a split you get 2 queens, one of them old. With a frame of grafts, you get up to 48 queens. If you have enough bees to populate a 3- or 4- frame nuc', that's a lot more chances to get some well-mated queens. By properly managing your other colonies, they stay in honey production and pollen collection throughout the peak of the Spring bloom, walk-away splits miss a month. The year-end results are only skewed by the size of the split. There's a lot more bees and resources in a full 10-frame box, but you can split after grafting with well-raised queens and NOT lose that critical month or prime nectar / pollen flow.

No offense, Croc. You have a lot of practical experience. I do think that grafting is one area of beekeeping where a little bit of complication REALLY WHOOPS the simplicity of walk-away splits.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Charlie...I think you misread. My reading is that he is advocating grafting into a 5 frame nuc (I do the same, but have an empty box below the box with all the frames....I like to visualize a giant ball of bees hanging over all the frames and into the empty box), and putting cages around the cells at about 10 days.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I don't recommend the roller cage protectors. Separating the queens is safer. Don't ask how I know...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't use the roller cage or any kind of a
cage now. Just cut out the cells at the
right time to transplant them. You only
have 3 days time frame to decide what to do
with the new queen. It is better to give her
a place asap for her mating flight later on.
And I don't like a balled virgin either. Do ask
me how I know.... So far lost 3 already because of bad
weather. Still Spring is almost here for the real deal.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I don't use roller cages in the hive either (I have used them in an incubator).

I've always thought this incubator bar was rather brilliant...gonna make some this season.
www.myoldtools.com/Bees/incubator/


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Incubator caging is all about reliability and ventilation. 

One queen gets out, and it's "Oh, *NO*, Mr. Bill!"

Temperature control in the incubator is fairly tight ~ 93 to 94.5 degrees F seems to work pretty good. That's +/- 0.75 degrees. Most incubators have some kind of air circulation. The cages need to be able to breathe, or they can go over this range.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Well, if caging is done properly in an incubator, the one queen that gets out can't get to the other cells.
I do this with curler cages and jzbz cups ...a little wax to hold the cup on the cage properly.


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## bee keeper chef (Nov 1, 2015)

check out this link http://www.thebeeyard.org/rearing-queens-via-the-cloake-board-method/


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

deknow said:


> ...I like to visualize a giant ball of bees hanging over all the frames and into the empty box), and putting cages around the cells at about 10 days.


Why don't you just put them in the nucs on day 10 and be done with it?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Mike, aplogies if that wasn't clear.

Referring to the roller cages in that post was an attempt to interpret crocks post...not my own practice. The passage about visualizing a ball of bees was in parenthesis.

Ive used roller cages in an incubator, but only on grafted cells.

Mostly I introduce cells 48 hours after grafting, before capping.


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