# Factors in Honey Production



## Matthew Smith (Oct 18, 2017)

In an effort to treat my bees more like a business, I'm trying to understand the factors that lead to high honey production and the manipulations or management practices that would encourage those.

In my search so far I've found: high population right before the main flows, healthy colonies, good weather, and swarm prevention.

It almost seems to simple, those things you can deal with relatively easily, with good queen stock, mite treatments or non-treatment methods, reversing brood boxes, etc., though not much can be done about poor weather...

Am I missing anything?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

If your swarm management consists only of reversing boxes....you are sure to be surprised and disappointed.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Matthew Smith said:


> Am I missing anything?


yes, beekeeping.


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## Matthew Smith (Oct 18, 2017)

"if your swarm management consists only of reversing boxes....you are sure to be surprised and disappointed."

Yes, I know. There is a lot more to it that that.. supering, removing brood, splitting, requeening yearly, and a whole load of various manipulations you can do.

I'm trying to learn what is involved in, and what it takes to make honey. I know what is involved in beekeeping as a whole, just looking for ideas on how to improve.


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## Matthew Smith (Oct 18, 2017)

I just can't afford beekeeping as much as I'd like to if my bees aren't paying for themselves as much as possible.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Delete


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Matthew Smith said:


> I just can't afford beekeeping as much as I'd like to if my bees aren't paying for themselves as much as possible.


if you can find locations that have many varied nectar sources, without to much competition in NY and keep your mites under control, and come out of the winter with plenty of bees, the bees will make you money. especially locust, basswood, and goldenrod, all three are preferred.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

What is your APH now? What do you consider to be a good avg?


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## Matthew Smith (Oct 18, 2017)

The Honey Householder said:


> What is your APH now? What do you consider to be a good avg?


This is my first year, but I've talked to people in my area and they get 60 lbs. or so.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I've been in the business for 37 years and grew up with my Dad doing the business. Each year I try and improve on what I did the year before. Ohio APH is only 56 lbs. My 7 year APH is 157 lbs. There is a lot that goes into the job to get that number, and years too. 

First, How much drawn comb do you have?

Second, What was your weather like this year?


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## Matthew Smith (Oct 18, 2017)

The Honey Householder said:


> I've been in the business for 37 years and grew up with my Dad doing the business. Each year I try and improve on what I did the year before. Ohio APH is only 56 lbs. My 7 year APH is 157 lbs. There is a lot that goes into the job to get that number, and years too.
> 
> First, How much drawn comb do you have?
> 
> Second, What was your weather like this year?


That's a fantastic APH! I only have one hive; I got it through a scholarship, so Ill take what I can get. So I only have 2 deep boxes of drawn comb, and a few extra frames that I got from someone in the local bee club. This year was very cold and wet, we stayed between 60-70 F for most of the summer. Because of the weather and some problems with my queen I only got the two boxes filled. 

Next year I'm planning on starting another two hives or so and get them going strong. I realize that I'm not in any position to make too much honey with no drawn comb in supers yet, but I'm trying to learn whatever I can on the matter to keep in mind with how I manage my hives going forward.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

How are you at controlling the weather?

Crazy Roland


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Roland said:


> How are you at controlling the weather?
> 
> Crazy Roland


in our state we are not allowed to control the weather, we are only allowed to use whatever is left after you get done with it.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Roland said:


> How are you at controlling the weather?
> 
> Crazy Roland


Roland, I've been looking into small bee rain coats with heaters. When it rains it pours.:digging:


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## Matthew Smith (Oct 18, 2017)

Roland said:


> How are you at controlling the weather?
> 
> Crazy Roland


Wish I could say I was better, that's for sure


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

First, a bad beekeeper will get more honey out of a good location than a good beekeeper will get out of a bad location. Often multiples more. Like real estate, it's LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION of your honey yards. And like everyone's favorite fishing hole, no one will tell you where to find the honey yards. It's up to you.

Beyond that, there's good weather, which no one can control.

What is in your control is swarm prevention, the health of the colonies, the timing of the supers, and the size of the colonies. Read up on Randy's articles about timing the population with your nectar flow. Stay on top of your varroa mites and keep your hives healthy and disease free. Be prepared to be able to identify diseases. Requeen when you need to, and early on. Get a game plan on swarm prevention (lots of methods out there) and get ready to be wrong. Get a per hive average and read up on what you can do better next year. Plenty of good books out there. 

It sounds simple, but trust me it isn't.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

"It sounds simple, but trust me it isn't"

Truer words were never spoken. Knowlege is powerful. Learn all you can. Don't be afraid to make a mistake or three. Always have more equipment available than you think you will need. Getting started is expensive and you cannot grow your apiary and make honey to sell at the same time.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Specialk.....
I have an off topic question. I have ask in one other place that was probly off topic also. Forgiveness please. 

Do you think if you added five hives to a bad area that the area might improve due to better polination of good bee plants maby giving those plants an edge of sorts?

I do not think my area is great but am hoping for a small immprovement due to the amount of bees I have added. Possible? Opinion?
Thanks 
gww


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

My number one concern is how do you control the hive environment so that your 
queens and bees can overwinter better? 

Most of the hives got dwindled away over the duration of a long hard frozen winter. Reminds me of the post that
he want to move south because the hives are not growing up north.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

My number one concern is how do you control the hive environment so that your 
queens and bees can overwinter better? 

Most of the hives got dwindled away over the duration of a long hard frozen winter. Reminds me of the post that
he want to move south because the hives are not growing up north.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

beepro said:


> My number one concern is how do you control the hive environment so that your
> queens and bees can overwinter better?
> 
> Most of the hives got dwindled away over the duration of a long hard frozen winter. Reminds me of the post that
> he want to move south because the hives are not growing up north.


Successful overwintering begins 3 or 4 months before the 1st day of winter.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Exactly, I thought that the newbies don't know it. Some are still chasing the syrup feeding hoping to
gain some hive weight. Too late now because the snow is falling in some northern regions already. Yep, winter is
finally here. We should see some 60s by next week here. My hives still building up the first round of their real
winter bees while the summer bees are extending their life-line as much as possible. It will be a long wait time for
them. Mini-fridge incubator on!


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

here is a good site if you haven't found it yet, watch for one of their workshops and sign up

nybeewellness.org


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

The Honey Householder said:


> I've been in the business for 37 years and grew up with my Dad doing the business. Each year I try and improve on what I did the year before. Ohio APH is only 56 lbs. My 7 year APH is 157 lbs. There is a lot that goes into the job to get that number, and years too.


Oh. Maybe I've got this wrong, but don't you take all the honey and shake out the bees? Not really a fair comparison to the Ohio APH. If you subtract the honey needed for winter, your average would be down below 100. A good average, and considerably above the Ohio APH, but not 157...without destroying the bees.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

gww said:


> Do you think if you added five hives to a bad area that the area might improve due to better polination of good bee plants maby giving those plants an edge of sorts?


Not really. In theory, more bees to an area will promote bee pollinated plants more than non-bee pollinated plants over successive years. But you'd have to do it for a very long time (measurements of decades) before you'd see a difference. Practically speaking, poor yards remain poor yards due to land use. Your bees collect nectar and pollen from roughly the closest 25,000 acres. If the majority of those acres are farmland for corn, or grass, or forests full of non-bee plants, it doesn't matter how many bees you bring in there, it won't change the farmer planting corn or the christmas tree farm. If the majority of those acres are full of ditches and open growth plains, the odds are they're probably full of goldenrod and asters anyway.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Specialk....
Thanks for giving your opinion. I guess eventually I am going to have to try dads 12 miles away and just see if there is a differrance. Nothing wrong with hope but decades is longer then I will probly live so I better speed up the process.
Thanks for taking the time and energy to answer my question.
gww


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Oh. Maybe I've got this wrong, but don't you take all the honey and shake out the bees? Not really a fair comparison to the Ohio APH. If you subtract the honey needed for winter, your average would be down below 100. A good average, and considerably above the Ohio APH, but not 157...without destroying the bees.


Mike you are wrong!!! 7 year APH of 157 lbs and I sell the bees off in the fall. Like your business you have built it up and an improved what will make you a living. I have done the same.

Back when my Dad overwinter he left 45-60 lbs to over winter. Honey price back then $.43 a lb. and packages $16. Premite so you didn't buy a lot of bees. Now honey price $2.75-$3.05 a lb and package $75. 

Beekeeping was a lot easier before the mite and the rest of the stuff a comm beekeeper has to deal with now. 

By taking the extra 45-60lbs, I can buy two new packages in the spring. Then on top of that I sell the fall shake out, that recoup $30 of my $75 package in the spring. 

This tread was about honey production, so what is your APH Mike??

If this tread was about making a living on just honey production, both you and I would not reply. 

With the packages I buy in the spring I produce a lot of nucs, frames of bees, and I sell the bees off in the fall too. 1/4 of my income anymore.

What do you do with your overwintered hives? What is your avg. income per unit. (hive, or nuc). 

Really is beekeepers better then honey producers???:bus


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yeah, I understand that you sell the bees and buy packages. I'm no criticizing that. Just think comparing your average to the Ohio average is apples to oranges.

My average? Long time, a little less than 100.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

The Honey Householder said:


> Mike you are wrong!!!


Actually, I think Mike is right. 

Your business model makes 100% sense. Dollar for dollar, your method grosses more than keeping them alive. No doubt. But when you say you have a 157 lb average, and state average is 56 lbs . . . they're keeping honey on their hives . . . so it isn't exactly like you're beating state average by 101 lbs. How much do they keep on their hives on average? 60 lbs? 100 lbs? Who knows.

Apples and oranges.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

WHO KNOWS???
Where does state avg. figures come from. Is it an average from just those that produce one way or is it an average of all product. Is it made up from everyone or just the producer that report there numbers? How many comm. beekeeper report and how many hobbies report. Avg. is and avg of what is harvested not what is left on the hive. What is the really avg for Ohio without the honey producer. What % does comes from my operation to make ohio avg 56 lbs. 
Apples and Oranges 

I'm talking Honey.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

If I had to work the way of The Honey Householder I would have to sell all my bees in July which would save me a ton of work and money not to mention the increase of honey, The problem however is who would want all those bees at that time of the year.
Johno


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Johno,
You would be surprised what you can sell them for at that time of the year for.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Forgive my intrusion into the commercial area (enjoy reading this forum much).
Would not THH's production be figured into the state's averages?


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Factoring in honey production.

Just the right amount of bees on drawn combs, good weather, and here is the big one for me. I harvest supers 3-4 time in the main flow, never wait until the end.(the bees eat less of it up that way)
Your big honey producer will run with a single brood box, and at the end of harvest feed them up a box for winter. Honey cost to much to over winter on.

A good forage area helps too. Some of the farms that I've been working has had bee on them for over 80 years(proven yards).


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

The Honey Householder said:


> I harvest supers 3-4 time in the main flow, never wait until the end.(the bees eat less of it up that way)


Interesting. I haven't heard that one before. Can you elaborate on the timing? Do you put one super on at a time, add another when the first is 80% full, then take the first one off by the time the third one goes on? Or do you have a different system?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Specialkayme said:


> Actually, I think Mike is right.
> 
> Your business model makes 100% sense. Dollar for dollar, your method grosses more than keeping them alive. No doubt. But when you say you have a 157 lb average, and state average is 56 lbs . . . they're keeping honey on their hives . . . so it isn't exactly like you're beating state average by 101 lbs. How much do they keep on their hives on average? 60 lbs? 100 lbs? Who knows.
> 
> Apples and oranges.


Its not a apples to oranges comparison. Do you know for a fact that the state APH is based on all the beekeepers leaving honey on the hives for winter??? You don't know what the management style is of all the beekeepers in any particular state. There's no reason HH can't look at his APH as beating the state average by 90-100 lb. if he wants to, I look at it the very same way. Bottom line is what your APH is, that's all that matters, what you have to do to get there reflects your own personal management style among other things, whatever it is. APH in any state is exactly that, an average of management styles, weather, pests, and location for a particular season.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Specialkayme said:


> Interesting. I haven't heard that one before. Can you elaborate on the timing? Do you put one super on at a time, add another when the first is 80% full, then take the first one off by the time the third one goes on? Or do you have a different system?


It takes some work but this is one of the things you can do to substantially increase honey production.

Strive to have a large population of healthy bee just prior to the nectar flow. I use two 10 frame deeps for brood.

I then run three 10 frame deep honey supers. Some with queen excluders and some without. If bees are plugging the top brood with honey because of the excluder, remove it.

Remove the bottom honey super every 4-7 days and put the wet super on the top of the stack. And they mostly don't swarm! I find if the frames are 1/3 capped, honey will be dry enough. Otherwise, I have a small room with a dehumidifier in it, that I leave the supers in overnite or for a day.

Our hours of daylight are long(15 hours plus) and during the heart of the flow, a good hive will pack away 75 lbs of honey in a week.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Thank you so much for sharing mgolden. Invaluable information. Its these nuggets of information that I LOVE reading about.



mgolden said:


> Remove the bottom honey super every 4-7 days and put the wet super on the top of the stack.


Just to be clear, do you remove the bottom super regardless of whether its full or not, or do you remove it every 4-7 days as its filled?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

mgolden said:


> It takes some work but this is one of the things you can do you substantially increase honey production.
> 
> Strive to have a large population of healthy bee prior to the nectar flow. I use two 10 frame deeps for brood.
> 
> ...


I know all beekeeping is local, but I only use one deep for brood and an excluder on top of that. I really think that a good queen only needs the one deep for brood, and anything more than that is going to end up being at least partially filled with honey that would otherwise be put above the excluder in the supers. Swarming pressure is different every year, but surprisingly, my method of limiting the queen to a single deep has not resulted in much swarming at all over the last several seasons running a little under 100 hives. Checking hives for queen cells is labor intensive, so rather than constantly doing that during the swarm season, I make sure that the hives get supers of drawn comb way ahead of when they need them, and that seems to help immensely. Using a single deep and an excluder can get me 6-7 filled medium supers over the season, so roughly 192-224 lb./hive, but obviously not all hives will produce that much, just the boomers. My APH is closer to 125 lb. in most seasons.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

jmgi>> my system is the same. 
the super sitting on the QE contains open polished cells ready to be laid up. early supering keeps the brood nest below the QE open and open cells in the 1st super. early supering is key.
putting supers on late causes the super over the QE to be filled with honey and starts the process of creating a honey dome in the brood nest and backfilling.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Specialkayme said:


> Interesting. I haven't heard that one before. Can you elaborate on the timing? Do you put one super on at a time, add another when the first is 80% full, then take the first one off by the time the third one goes on? Or do you have a different system?


I start out with 2 supers on the hive when I shake the bees in. Queen excluder are always on the hives. After pull all the extra bee by the end of May, I super them up to 4-5 supers. The first pull is around July 4. Most years 2-3 supers are pulled then, and then super back 2-3 supers. Second pull is starts around July 25 or when I'm done with the first. Most year that is another 2-3 super, leaving 2-3 super depending what things look like. The rest of the super get put above the innercover. The third pull is depending on the fall flow and when I shake the bees. A week or so before we shake, we pull the last of the super of honey and stack empty super up for the winter in the yards and fill their feeds. 

The extra supers going above the inner cover has pull me some extra supers over the years. Most supers pulled from one hive in a season was 16 mediums.

Supers don't always have to be 100% capped to harvested. This year's crop avg moister at 17.2% and was harvested at 2/3 capped. The less energy the bees put into capping the most they put in with honey.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Specialkayme said:


> Thank you so much for sharing mgolden. Invaluable information. Its these nuggets of information that I LOVE reading about.
> 
> 
> 
> Just to be clear, do you remove the bottom super regardless of whether its full or not, or do you remove it every 4-7 days as its filled?


No, one makes a judgement call. 

If the top super is not full, and bottom super is less than a third capped, then I wait a few days to pull the honey. You get a feel for the weight of a full super and can also inspect a few frames.

However, I strive to have open nectar storage space other than the brood nest. If brood nest is starting to get plugged, I pull a couple of outside frames and insert a couple of frames with blank foundation. I mostly routinely do this, every couple of weeks during the flow, so as to have work for the wax makers, laying area for the queen and brood for the nurse bees to tend to.

I know some beekeepers run a single brood and winter in a single brood. It takes some management. I am trying a single with a sugar board, but two deeps has been my practice for broods and eventually winter configuration.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

clyderoad said:


> jmgi>> my system is the same.
> the super sitting on the QE contains open polished cells ready to be laid up. early supering keeps the brood nest below the QE open and open cells in the 1st super. early supering is key.
> putting supers on late causes the super over the QE to be filled with honey and starts the process of creating a honey dome in the brood nest and backfilling.


This is correct, I failed to mention that I experience the same thing with the first super above excluder. It does usually have open clean cells in 6-7 of the center most frames of the first super, not that the queen could ever lay in them, but its the bees natural way of shaping the brood nest in an oval pattern. I find towards the end of the season, the bees will sometimes start to fill in those same empty cells with honey, but not always. I have extracted some supers lately that still have those center most combs empty, with honey only on the outer most couple frames.


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2004)

This is a great discussion! Ron, I don't understand "After pull all the extra bee by the end of May". Can you elaborate? 

Lloyd


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

It is the belief of some that bees with empty supers will make more honey honey than a hive with full supers.

Crazy Roland


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> This is a great discussion! Ron, I don't understand "After pull all the extra bee by the end of May". Can you elaborate?
> 
> Lloyd


Hi Lloyd,
Hope your crop was a good one this year.

Even starting with 2 lb package in mid March, it makes more bees then we need to produce our crop.
We only need a 6 frame average by the end of May to make the honey crop.
I sell a lot of nucs and frames of bees off to keep the hives at that size. I do still make some increase for myself too.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Roland said:


> It is the belief of some that bees with empty supers will make more honey honey than a hive with full supers.
> 
> Crazy Roland



I can make you a believer too, Roland.:thumbsup:


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Do you commercial honey producers use an upper entrance above the excluder so the field force gathering nectar doesn't have to pass through the
brood nest and the excluder?


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

The only upper entrance I have on my hives are the holes on the boxes. You know the ones you get from years of use.


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

The Honey Householder said:


> We only need a 6 frame average by the end of May to make the honey crop.


Is this frames of bees, brood, or both??


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

JoshuaW said:


> Is this frames of bees, brood, or both??


For the timing on the main flow. I want my hives to have 6 frames of brood by the end of May. Our basswood flow is normally 3rd week in June and the main flow start right around the first of July. If I can get the hive to peck a week into the main flow I'm good. If they peck to early, I take the chance of losing the hive to swarming. You can do everything right and the weather can still screw you. 2-3 weeks of rain at the wrong time and there goes the hive. I only run in a single deep with 8 frames and a feeder. Just with that you can get your hive built up to 8-10 lb of bees by end of our main flow.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Not a commercial answer, sorry. Wrong forum.


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

@THH: So when you reach the six-frame strength, you start selling nucs and brood, etc?


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

JoshuaW said:


> @THH: So when you reach the six-frame strength, you start selling nucs and brood, etc?


Thats correct.:thumbsup:


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

Hello All,

I believe I have read most posts in this thread, but fail to see much about the bees themselves. I am not commercial, so you can through my post out if you like for 'misplacement', but I run my hives like I need to make money with them for several reasons. I don't have the time to 'babysit' them, I don't like to do work for nothing and I like to improve, always. I have bought hives in late April, early May, ready to go and I am now at a stage where I hope I am able to let the bees manage themselves, do swarm prevention, give them ample of room when they need it and extract 5-7 times on a good hive. Perhaps I get to the confidence to build some nucs, but beside location, the most important factor is the bee breed.

What I noticed is that honey production at the same location can vary so much just by the bee breed, my best hive of dark, just about black bees did 230lbs and two hives beside with light brown colored bees never build up population much and where disappointing honey producers. I am a farmer and ex dairy producer and know what breed means and I am certain that with bees we have milk and meat bees and what we need to produce is the milk bees. 

Cheers, Joerg


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## Matthew Smith (Oct 18, 2017)

For those who overwinter their colonies, is there a difference in honey production with ULBN vs. two deep or one deep hives? I understand that the unlimited brood nest helps the bees build up faster in spring, but there is also a lot more space that the bees will fill up with honey stores, possibly negating that?


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2004)

In my opinion, the primary rationale for unlimited brood nest is that it helps reduce swarming. I know of a beekeeper running better than 1,000 colonies who overwinters with three deeps. and that is said to be the rationale. In my opinion, the highest annual honey production per colony is to run a brood nest with one deep. The management required to run with three deeps for brood and one deep is totally different and I do not have an opinion as to whether one is 'better'. Personally, my brood nest is a deep and a medium, and I don't feel a need to change. That said, were I to do so I would probably go with a single deep.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Biermann said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I believe I have read most posts in this thread, but fail to see much about the bees themselves. I am not commercial, so you can through my post out if you like for 'misplacement', but I run my hives like I need to make money with them for several reasons. I don't have the time to 'babysit' them, I don't like to do work for nothing and I like to improve, always. I have bought hives in late April, early May, ready to go and I am now at a stage where I hope I am able to let the bees manage themselves, do swarm prevention, give them ample of room when they need it and extract 5-7 times on a good hive. Perhaps I get to the confidence to build some nucs, but beside location, the most important factor is the bee breed.
> 
> ...


I have never used anything but Italian bees, so I can't speak about the honey production of other breeds, but what I do know is that from a strictly honey production point of view, I have no reason to go with anything different because I can get a little over 200 lbs. from some Italian colonies located in my backyard (one of my apiaries) which is in a residential area with no agricultural crops of any kind grown within 5 miles or so. My colonies located in agricultural areas can do better than that. I'm happy with those kinds of numbers. Obviously, these kinds of honey crops are produced in very good years weather wise. No breed of bees will produce that well in poor weather years. If the bees can't fly because of rain or cold, how much can they produce? Location is not everything, but its up near the top of the list IMO. Management style and weather are way up there too.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> In my opinion, the primary rationale for unlimited brood nest is that it helps reduce swarming. I know of a beekeeper running better than 1,000 colonies who overwinters with three deeps. and that is said to be the rationale. In my opinion, the highest annual honey production per colony is to run a brood nest with one deep. The management required to run with three deeps for brood and one deep is totally different and I do not have an opinion as to whether one is 'better'. Personally, my brood nest is a deep and a medium, and I don't feel a need to change. That said, were I to do so I would probably go with a single deep.


I agree with the brood nest size of one deep, at least in my area of the country with the amount of forage that is available.


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

This past year, I ran a deep and a medium, with the medium under the deep; I also had a few singles with the deep as the bottom, and only box. ALL the medium/deeps swarmed. NONE of the singles did (and we had a VERY swarmy season according to the State Inspector, who lives in my county). I'm really beginning to believe BernhardHuevel's observations that the bees really like that tight, compact, organized broodnest. Not seeing a problem with the queen, they stay home and rake it in.

I'm going to singles.


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2004)

JoshuaW makes a valuable observation concerning the swarming tendency comparison between running a brood nest of 1.5 stories and a single deep (one story). However, perhaps offsetting that is the overwintering comparison between the two. The 1.5 story (a deep and a medium) hive in this climate will easily store enough pollen and honey in the deep (when the deep is on top) to overwinter. At this time of year the deep will weigh 70-80 lbs, without feeding. When a single deep is used as a brood nest the standard thinking is that the bees must be fed accumulate enough stores to overwinter. 
I don't care about the added honey production from a single deep compared to a deep and a medium...and I hesitate to add all the labor to feed singles! I currently run about 130 hives.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

JoshuaW said:


> I'm going to singles.


Any management tips or suggestions you can provide?

I love running singles. Honey production beats 1.5 and doubles, and I usually have fewer mite issues. I haven't noticed a decrease in swarming from singles, but that may be true too. But while they work great in singles, the second a super makes it above that deep, that queen runs to it to lay in. Then I'm looking at increased wax moth issues and extraction difficulties (I know others here don't care, but I hate running a brood frame through an extractor). If I throw an excluder on, my honey yield decreases. 

So how do you run them?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

The use of double deeps for brood go way back, and I think that is still what the beekeeping manuals of today preach for beginners. When I started keeping bees back in the 60's that was the rule. It was probably recommended for wintering purposes (more food storage), and the fact that it was believed a hive with a good laying queen would get cramped in one deep for brood and swarm easier. I don't believe that for a minute, and in fact I believe the opposite is more likely to happen, a double deep with a good queen will be harder to keep from swarming. I find a strong hive with only one deep for brood does not plug up the brood box with honey, they use 90% of the space for brood and pollen storage, very little honey, and the rest of the honey goes above the excluder into the supers. Now, a weak hive with only one deep for brood will put much more honey in the brood box and little in the supers, that's what I have experienced without fail.


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

Thanks Lloyd!

What I left out was that most of my production hives remain 1.5's with the medium under the deep to overwinter. Like you say, I can certainly tell which ones I DON'T have to feed up for winter 

Randy Oliver made an interesting observation (sorry, I can't remember the exact article) that bees will make every effort to get to 10-frame strength if they're smaller, and reduce to 10-frame strength if they're larger, for overwintering. But I don't know what race he's working with, yada yada...


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> JoshuaW makes a valuable observation concerning the swarming tendency comparison between running a brood nest of 1.5 stories and a single deep (one story). However, perhaps offsetting that is the overwintering comparison between the two. The 1.5 story (a deep and a medium) hive in this climate will easily store enough pollen and honey in the deep (when the deep is on top) to overwinter. At this time of year the deep will weigh 70-80 lbs, without feeding. When a single deep is used as a brood nest the standard thinking is that the bees must be fed accumulate enough stores to overwinter.
> I don't care about the added honey production from a single deep compared to a deep and a medium...and I hesitate to add all the labor to feed singles! I currently run about 130 hives.


I find that a strong hive with a single deep brood box never seems to put much honey in there, even in the fall, as long as there are available supers on the hive. Then you must feed the bees syrup to get them up to weight for winter after taking off the supers. So yes, that is a somewhat of a disadvantage, or, it can be a disadvantage if you don't get the supers off early enough so the bees can use the fall flow to store up food for winter. And depending on the fall flow, you may still need to feed syrup. But syrup is way cheaper than honey last time I checked. More labor to feed, definitely.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

JoshuaW said:


> Randy Oliver made an interesting observation (sorry, I can't remember the exact article) that bees will make every effort to get to 10-frame strength if they're smaller, and reduce to 10-frame strength if they're larger, for overwintering. But I don't know what race he's working with, yada yada...


Here you go:



> The data from both Lloyd Harris and from a large-scale Beeologics trial [5] in which I was involved suggest that no matter the strength of colonies in summer, (in the words of Harris) there is “a tendency for colony populations to converge towards a common numerical size.” This size appears aim toward a cluster of 9-10 frames in strength in December. Thus, stronger colonies appear to shed a greater proportion of excess bees.
> 
> . . .
> 
> That colonies of any starting strength in autumn tended to grow toward 8-10 frames in strength by the end of January (the 99 colonies in my data set were treated identically; but I do not know how the other beekeepers treated theirs). Of interest is that an 8-10 frame colony is just large enough to fill the size of cavity preferred by swarms [6]—do our bees have an innate goal of wintering at that size?


Source: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/understanding-colony-buildup-and-decline-part-12/


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

Specialkayme said:


> Any management tips or suggestions you can provide?


Not much more than I've already read here on BeeSource  But, since you asked I'll share my (brief) experience/observations.

I'll assume the hive setup is: bottom board, deep, excluder, supers, roof.
• It almost goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway: young queens.
• I put the excluder on after the bees are working in the super. If the queen moves up there, then I put her down below and accept the fact that there's one round of brood up top.
• I think Bernhard has a point when he observes that bees like it tight and organized. They don't percieve a queen problem. Also, the queen really does have a set number of eggs she can lay per day, and a young queen can cover her combs pretty thoroughly and maintain the integrity of her broodnest, but I haven't seen it done perfectly yet.
• The queen DOES prefer the second box, even if that's a medium over a deep. I think she wants away from the entrance. But she'll lay up wherever she can if she's confined by an excluder... And the bees eventually give up and fill those cells in with nectar.
• The bees polish the cells ABOVE the excluder for the queen to lay in, as spoken of earlier in this thread. I even witnessed the bees move an egg to a queen cell on the bottom bar of the medium over the queen excluder. I cut it and that never happened again.
• Dr. Seeley mentions that bees prefer a cavity about the size of (you guessed it) a deep, and I find myself continuously asking "how can I help the bees be as efficient as they want to be, given modern equipment?"
• I do have to be on top of the food situation, as I find it harder to get the bees to expand horizontally, across the deep, especially when it's started as a nuc. I LOVE working nucs 

Sorry for all the dis-jointed thoughts, but those are the general principles I've been noticing/using. Of course nothing is perfect, and the weather and flora have quite a say, too. When I read in the Hive and the Honey Bee that some Canadian producers (like Ian) winter in singles, and that nucs winter better than triples in some instances, I started thinking "smaller space".

Would be nice if Ian would chime in on this...


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Thanks for the reply JoshuaW



JoshuaW said:


> • I put the excluder on after the bees are working in the super. If the queen moves up there, then I put her down below and accept the fact that there's one round of brood up top.


One follow up question, can you elaborate on the timing of this? How far ahead of the main flow do you put the first super on, and how long after that do you put the excluder on?


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

Okay. I might "back into" the timing.

We have an Elm that opens the third week of February, like clock-work, and that's a major early pollen source. Our main flow starts about the 2nd week of May; I like to have storage space on the hive by the last of March/first week of April , if not before, even. So first/second week of April is about Red Bud bloom for us. Followed by Autumn Olive (both major early nectar sources here). This is a good time to get the excluder on, but once they have brood they won't leave it, so even March isn't crazy in my book. I can see Red Bud in the supers even if there's not much (if any) surplus, and if the weather is co-operating we can get surplus Autumn Olive in late April/early May. After that there's a lull, and the Locust opens, but sometimes the colonies aren't quite strong enough yet to get a good piece of it. But then Tulip Poplar opens. We used to be guaranteed two supers of Tulip Poplar, but the locals say the weather is changing and the flow is coming earlier and earlier. If extra supers aren't on by Tulip, then forget a crop; they'll be in the trees. by the third week of June things are noticably slowing down, and July 4th we consider to be the end.

Thanks for asking! That really helped me think through the season!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Roland said:


> How are you at controlling the weather?
> 
> Crazy Roland


:lpf:


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Very helpful. Thanks Josh.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

JoshuaW said:


> Would be nice if Ian would chime in on this...


Ian gave a presentation on this subject, single box hive management at the BCHPA AGM this last weekend. All of the presentations were recorded, and most will end up online linked thru our website along with most of the presentations from the prior 3 years worth of events. Not sure how long it'll take before they are posted, but, when it's up, that will be an hour video that answers a LOT of the questions folks would be asking on the subject. It was a very well thought out presentation, I took a lot from it.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ron - Who said I was not a believer that empty hives make more honey? You can't let them think they have enough and start to slack off.


Crazy Roland


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

grozzie2 said:


> Ian gave a presentation on this subject....when it's up (on youtube), that will be an hour video that answers a LOT of the questions folks would be asking on the subject. It was a very well thought out presentation, I took a lot from it.


Looking forward to hearing when it is available...Please post the links.


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