# 24 Hour Varoa Count? *UPDATED*



## George Fergusson

>What are 'acceptable' numbers? 

You're not going to get a straight answer to this question. There are too many variables- colony size, time of year, weather, amount of brood rearing, the strain of bee and the degree of hygenic behavior, etc. What is bad for one hive might be tolerable for another and inconsequential for a third. What is more important than absolute numbers is the trend of the mite population over time. If it's trending UP, you've got potential problems. If it's stable, well.... If you search around the site you'll find many threads on this subject.

>Above what number do you recommend Apistan?

I'll never recommend Apistan







I'll recommend powdered sugar, I'll recommend Oxalic acid vapor or drip, I'll recommend drone comb trapping. Those are the only forms of treatment with which I am personally familiar. I've fogged with FGMO, but I don't believe it's a real knock-em-down treatment i.e., if you don't have a lot of mites, it will probably help keep it that way but if you've got a serious mite problem, I don't think it will help.

>Up to what number do you feel powdered sugar is adequate to treat?

The more mites you have, the more it will knock down. If you've got a lot of brood rearing going on and your mite (and bee) population is peaking, no treatment is going to be good enough. All you can hope for is killing enough mites over time to reduce their population to "safe" levels. It's often too late by then.


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## longarm

George,
Thanks for the info. I just finished a 24 hour count and found 71 mites. Seems kind of high.. though I have not been keeping records of numbers in the past. However I am certain that the number has been increasing over time.
This is a first year hive that was started from a #3 package of Italians in April. I just pulled 2 shallow supers of honey off the hive. Seems healthy (??) other than the mites...
Powdered sugar enought to take care of this situation?
Dan


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## drobbins

longarm

that's definately enough to raise the alarm bells
the problem is it's difficult to treat this time of year because most of the mites are sealed in cells where your treatment won't get to em
folks report good results with powdered sugar
you have to do it repeated times to get em as they emerge from the cells, so it's labor intensive, but if you only have a couple of hives it sure beats using hard chemicals 
I tried Apiguard (a thymol product)
it seemed to work pretty well but it's kinda stinky
we'll see if it taints the fall honey
I'll be a little reluctant to use it again bacause of that
I used oxalic acid last fall with good result but have never tried it in summer
I think you need to do something now to get that count down

Dave


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## longarm

THanks Dave.
I don't plan on getting any Fall honey and so for that reason I am not opposed to using Apistan (active ingredient: Tau-fluvalinate). Many on this board and others seem opposed to it's use though I haven't read exactly why..
I am concerned for the bees making it through winter. I have only a couple of hives so repeat treatments with powdered sugar is not a problem. I just don't know if it is enought to get the mite count down enough for winter...
any thoughts appreciated.
Dan


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## George Fergusson

>Thanks for the info. I just finished a 24 hour count and found 71 mites. Seems kind of high..

Yup. Without knowing the trend I can safely say you've got a big problem. I lost hives last winter that had 24 hour drops less than that this time last summer. Surprising for a 1st year package, they must have come with a healthy mite load. Good you got a crop of honey off them, they may not be around next year  

To keep them alive you've got to reduce the mite load and see to it that the bees raise 2-3 cycles of healthy over-wintering bees before the queen shuts down. The bees that are being raised now won't live long enough to take your hive through the winter. Feed 1:1 syrup to stimulate brood rearing and make sure they've got enough pollen- if they don't, some pollen substitute or even better, real pollen should be fed to them as well. At that, their chances aren't good, but you could get lucky.

George-


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## iddee

Nobody has mentionsd fgmo and thymol fogging. I think that may be a good additive to whatever you decide to use.


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## longarm

Well I treated with powdered sugar.. about 1.5 or 2 cups sifted into the top of a stack of 2 deeps, then brushed the sugar off the top bars.
24 hours later my mite drop is 80.
I had expected .. a lot more.
What do you make of it?


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## George Fergusson

Longarm, powdered sugar's effect is mechanical in the sense that it causes the mites to lose their grip and fall off the bees as opposed to a chemical effect that kills them and causes them to drop. With Oxalic acid for example, a single treatment has an effect that lasts up to about a week, during which you'll see increased drops. There is no real long term effect on mite drop from the use of powdered sugar. You powder your bees, mites fall off. You powder them again, more fall off. In the meantime, mites are emerging and mites you didn't remove are entering cells to breed. What would be interesting to know is how many mites were dislodged by the treatment. You were seeing 71 mites drop before the treatment, I'd expect about that after treatment as well since you really haven't removed many of the mites that normally contribute to daily drop.

In other words, with powdered sugar you're removing phoretic mites- mites that are hanging out on bees. It so happens that when mites are phoretic, they're much less likely to fall off so most of the daily drop you see results from the process of brood rearing. In the late fall, when brood rearing slows down, mite drop also diminishes. When brood rearing ceases, mite drop becomes almost zero.

So your goal with using powdered sugar (or any other treatment for that matter) is to remove mites after they've emerged from cells and are starting the 3-10 day phoretic phase of their life cycle. You want to prevent them from reentering cells to breed. If you can do that, then your breeding population of mites will slowly be reduced and your daily drop will slowly diminish.

So. It will take some time before you see any significant change in "natural" daily drop. If your treatment is effective, it will stop rising, level off, then start to drop. If it is not effective enough, then it will continue to rise in spite of your efforts. It is in effect a race against time and the mites have a head start. You need to significantly reduce the mite load while your bees still have a chance to raise a few cycles worth of wintering bees. If you succeed, then your hive will likely winter OK, all other things being equal. If you fail, then your hive population will consist of weakened short-lived bees and it will dwindle to the point where they don't have enough bees left to maintain a functional winter cluster, and they will die.

Am I making sense?

George-


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## longarm

George,
Thanks once again for all the info - very helpful for a beginner such as myself.
Today's mite drop had a much higher percentage of immature mites than the daily drop before the first treatment.

Still concerned though that I may be at this too late.. and am therfore considering more aggressive treatment.


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## Mike Gillmore

Dan,

I ran into this same kind of situation last year. With two packages and two hived swarms I figured that I did not need to worry about the mites too much the first year - Wrong !
Late fall I noticed bees crawling around on the grass with deformed wings and I knew I was in trouble. I started checking the mite drops and sure enough, they were very high - mite factories! 

I figured it was too late and the hives were probably doomed, but wanted to try to save them if I could. I did not want to use chemicals in the hive so I went the OA Vapor route and gave them a series of treatments 1 week apart. The number of mites that fell was just unbelievable. 

Long story short... 3 of the 4 hives survived the winter and I was actually able to split 2 of them this spring. I really did not think any would make it, but they hung in there. 

I've just been using Powdered Sugar this summer and hopefully that will keep the mites under control. If they get out of hand I can always crack out the OA again - it is very effective.

Mike


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## longarm

Good to hear Mike, thanks.
Will look into it at my local supplier.
Dan


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## Mike Gillmore

OA is not an "approved" treatment in the US, so you probably will not get any help with your local supplier. 
If you are interested, do a search here and read up on Oxalic Acid. You'll find everything you need to know... and then some.


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## drobbins

longarm

>though I haven't read exactly why..

it's because fluvalinate kills the mites but it also contaminates the wax
next year your bees are raising their young in pesticide contaminated comb
it won't kill em, but it sure isn't good for em

Dave


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## drobbins

I would mention that iddee pointed out fgmo treatments
I've never used em but there's a whole forum devoted to them here
read em, food for thought

Dave

[edit]sorry, I can't spell worth spit

[ August 01, 2006, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## George Fergusson

>Still concerned though that I may be at this too late.. and am therfore considering more aggressive treatment. 

As well you should be. I wouldn't bet dollars to donuts on your hive making it through the winter. I had 20 hives last summer about this time with 24 hour natural mite drops ranging from a low of 45 to a high of around 100. Only 2 were still alive this spring.

The problem you face however is that as long as your bees are busily raising brood, no "more aggressive" treatment is going to make much difference. You can't beat the odds and as long as the bees are rearing brood, the odds favor the mites. The math is simple enough, and Michael Bush has done the math:

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

Click on "Varroa Treatments" in the left frame.

Now, here's a radical approach I heard about on another site and I decided I would try it if the situation warranted it, but I haven't been faced with a dire situation requiring desperate measures since. Your situation just might qualify







At the time I considered it pretty drastic but knowing what I know now- that the chances of a hive in a condition such as yours surviving being oh, about zero, I think it might be worth a try. I'm not suggesting it's guaranteed to succeed but if your hive were my hive, knowing what I know now, I'd try it. The steps are simple enough:

1) Remove all the capped brood from your hive. Every last cell of it.

2) Treat the bees with something with a real wallop to it to take out as many phoretic mites as possible.

3) Feed honey (or 1:1 syrup) to stimulate brood rearing and if they need it, pollen (or pollen substitute.

That's it.

By removing all the capped brood you're immediately getting rid of 60% to 80% of the mites in your hive in one swell foop. This followed by a treatment with an efficacy of something better than 90% will then remove the majority of the remaining mites, leaving you with a minimal mite population which will not overwhelm the bees. Then it's just a matter of getting the bees rearing brood again.

Simple. Easy. Drastic. Effective? Well, I dunno, never having done it or talked to anyone who's done it, but I'd guess you have a better than even chance of saving the hive. As it stands now using "conventional" means of treatment, I put your chances of success at around 1 in 10.

In practice, I'm not sure how I'd go about it. You could simply remove the combs with lots of capped brood and freeze them, then then return them to the hive so the bees can clean them out. Combs with small patches of brood you could probably just uncap and leave in the hive, but I think I'd still be inclined to freeze them- no sense risking letting any live mites loose in the hive when you've got them captured in a capped cell. If I had empty comb available, I'd probably substitute it for the combs with brood so the bees could get back to brood rearing that much faster.

For a highly efficaceous treatment, my choice would be Oxalic acid drip. It's simple, easy, fast, and it works Very Well. It would kill most of the open brood however. I suppose I might consider Oxalic acid vapor which is also effective but which is nasty and much harder to do right.

The third step is simple enough. You want to kick start brood rearing and start raising some healthy long-lived overwintering bees as quickly as possible. Lastly, you want to make sure the bees have sufficient stores for winter so you're probably looking at feeding them heavily in early fall.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.


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## drobbins

Dang George,

I guess it's that time of year to dive into the mite treatment quagmire again
it seem to me that what you need at this time of year is some type of "time released" treatment where you can catch the mites as they emerge from the cells
that's the problem with OA, it zaps the phoretic mites but at this time of year most of em are in sealed cells
I tried Apiguard, it worked well but it's "stinky"
I guess repeated OA treatments are an option
can anyone figure out we're struggling for an answer??

Dave


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## George Fergusson

It occurs to me that the above "drastic" method of treatment is really just yet-another-means of breaking the brood cycle, but with extreme predjudice. You obtain the effect of caging the queen for a month in about 15 minutes. You don't have to wait 3 weeks for all the brood to hatch out. The downside of course is that you lose those future bees. However, with a 2-deep hive dropping 80+ mites a day, those future bees will be heavily infested and they aren't going to be worth much. They're not going to live long, they're just going to consume valuable resources and they're not going provide the hive with a return on it's investment.

Something to think about.


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## drobbins

George

exactly
what hurts the hive more
the varroa or the OA?
sometimes the medicine is bitter

Dave


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## George Fergusson

>it seem to me that what you need at this time of year is some type of "time released" treatment where you can catch the mites as they emerge from the cells

The problem Dave is what I mentioned above in my "afterthought": While you're patiently killing mites that emerge from cells for a month or more, you need to remember that the bees emerging from those very same cells suck. You're raising sucky, weak, short-lived bees that can never pay their own energy bill. As long as the mites are predominantly in drone brood, things are OK. When they start entering worker brood in late summer, that's when you're in trouble. Sure, with a "timed release" treatment you might manage to get 80% of the mites in your hive by the time winter sets in, but the damage has been done. Will your hive make it through the winter?


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## George Fergusson

>what hurts the hive more
the varroa or the OA?

The varroa!


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## drobbins

George

you paint a grim picture
here's a thought nobody mentions
how bout the queen?
are some queens damaged by varroa and other not?
if you raise 10 queens and 5 are parisitized by varroa and 5 are not, how does that effect there performace?
are the queens who aren't damaged by mites better able to recover from the dire situation we're talking about?

ignore my poor spelling, I still have my foot in my mouth from another post  

Dave


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## AstroBee

George,

I had the same idea some time back, but never felt the need to implement such a fix. One of the things I wondered about was the load that you'd be placing on the hive by placing the previously frozen frames back into the hives. That's a big clean-up task. 

Regarding your statement:
"You're raising sucky, weak, short-lived bees that can never pay their own energy bill. " 

I think this is heavily a function of how badly the bees are affected by the mite load. Of course shriveled winged bees will never pay their own bill, but if the bees can fly they stand a chance of contributing to hive's resources. They're certainly not going to overwinter, but they may bring some return.

Overall, its probably not an approach a rookie should attempt. I'd suggest perhaps a combination punch, of a heavy knock down, like those suggested, e.g., OA, Sucrocide, followed up with a time released agent, e.g., Apiguard, (even strips for a one-time use). 

I'd really like to hear form someone who may have tried "pull and freeze" approach.


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## George Fergusson

>you paint a grim picture

Yep Dave, that would be me. I'm not particularly good at painting rosy sweet smelling pictures, and I don't think rosy pictures and an optimistic prognosis really serve much purpose when talking about varroa mites. Granted, not all hives with mites are doomed, but they do kill a lot of hives and the mechanism by which they do so is relatively simple, but I think, often misunderstood. I lost a pile of hives last year to mites. I watched what happened and I studied mites and their life cycle. In classic cases of heavy varroa mite infestation, most hives ARE doomed. Few hives showing classic symptoms of PMS in early August are going to make it through to spring. There are exceptions of course- 2 of my original 20 hives survived the winter.

>I had the same idea some time back, but never felt the need to implement such a fix. One of the things I wondered about was the load that you'd be placing on the hive by placing the previously frozen frames back into the hives. That's a big clean-up task. 

I agree.

>"You're raising sucky, weak, short-lived bees that can never pay their own energy bill. " 

>I think this is heavily a function of how badly the bees are affected by the mite load. Of course shriveled winged bees will never pay their own bill, but if the bees can fly they stand a chance of contributing to hive's resources. They're certainly not going to overwinter, but they may bring some return.

Mmm... I had to think about it for a while. I disagree, and here's why:

1) At least in northern areas of the country where queens typically shut down egg laying in October, bees raised in August and September are expected to fulfill one and only one job: to live long enough to see the hive through the winter. These bees don't pay off their energy bill by flying and collecting nectar. They're expected to live 6 months or more rather than the typical 5-8 weeks. If they don't live long enough, the hive will die. These overwintering bees don't forage for the most part as bringing in the fall crop is the job of older summer-raised foragers. Overwintering bees may never take more than a cleansing flight in January. An egg laid in early August won't become a foraging worker for roughly 40 days- it will be mid-September before that bee comes of foraging age, by which time, the fall flow is pretty much over. Obviously then, by the time eggs laid in September mature into adult workers, the hive will be heading into winter cluster.

Hives with a moderate mite load typically don't make surplus honey and hives with a heavy mite load can't even meet their own needs. This is because bees parasitized by mites during development are weakened, tired, and shorter-lived than unparasitized bees even if they're not outwardly deformed exhibiting shriveled wings or shrunken abodomens.

When the bees are raising drones in the late spring and early summer, the mites don't infest worker brood as much. In late summer when hives stop raising drones, the mites have no choice but to enter worker brood, in ever-increasing numbers. The impact of this change is significant on overall hive health and productivity. You'll often see booming hives make a good surplus in June and July only to sucumb to PMS in August and early September when mite population numbers have gone ballistic.

Then there is the whole issue of overall colony morale and the impact of lethargic, depressed bees. Don't get me started!









>Overall, it’s probably not an approach a rookie should attempt. I'd suggest perhaps a combination punch, of a heavy knock down, like those suggested, e.g., OA, Sucrocide, followed up with a time released agent, e.g., Apiguard, (even strips for a one-time use). 

I've already explained why that approach is more often than not doomed to fail. As long as the bees are raising brood, you're fighting an uphill battle and the odds favor the mites.

>I'd really like to hear form someone who may have tried "pull and freeze" approach. 

I would too. I just got some email from a German beekeeper suggesting that this method is routinely employed in Europe as part of an overall varroa strategy involving late-summer splits, combining colonies, etc.

As I was heading for bed last night it occurred to me that this method is comparable to a shook swarm- not something you typically do in late summer I suppose, but the concept is the same.

I'm not about to become the champion of, for lack of a better term, "the drastic method of varroa control" but I will play the devil's advocate here and happily shoot holes in people's more "conventional" approaches to managing heavily mite-infested hives in late summer.


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## Dave W

Greetings . . .

I can't add much to this discussion, 'cept to say that, "George is right!" 
He needs no affirmation from me or anyone. He is telling a "bought-n-paid-for" lesson that no one wants to hear.

If it were my hive, I'd treat w/ Apistan and watch (and count) the 10,000 or so mites fall out. If this hive is not treated NOW w/ a treamnent that KILLS lots of mites, its doomed.


longarm . . .

I have posted (3+ year) mite drops for a simular hive. Do a search and find those numbers, you may be shocked!


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## longarm

hmm... just did another 24hr mite count. this is 3 days after treatment w/ powdered sugar. count is down to 41. still... 
i think i will take advice here and treat this once with chemicals. i really don't want to lose this (my FIRST!) hive.
Dan


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## George Fergusson

Longarm, you're going to see such day-to-day variation as brood tends to emerge in waves. For this reason most people recommend taking a 3 or 4 day average to obtain a 24 hour drop. That's actually the main thing I've got against drop counts- they can vary due to weather and temperature. Over time, they're pretty reliable indicators of mite load however.

Checking mite loads in several ways is always a good idea- drop counts supplemented with either sugar shakes or drone brood examination. It helps to get a sense for how the different methods compare. Whenever I am pulling frames, I always check drone brood when I find it, at least 8-10 cells. I use an uncapping fork. If I find a mite, I pull some more until I've got a reasonable sample.

>i really don't want to lose this (my FIRST!) hive.

I sure hope you don't, but your mite load is pretty high. I'm not saying you'll lose it, but it's certainly at-risk. Have you seen any sign of deformed wing virus or bees with shrunken abdomens yet? Any uncapped pupae?


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## longarm

No I haven't - they seem, to my admittedly untrained eye, very healthy! Have looked to find k-wing and have not, nor any of the other mentioned indicators. Will open some drone brood though next time in the hive (most likely tomorrow).
thanks again George,
Dan


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## Mike Gillmore

" I had 20 hives last summer about this time with 24 hour natural mite drops ranging from a low of 45 to a high of around 100. Only 2 were still alive this spring. "

George,

I appreciate all of of your advice here but what I would like to know is... what did you use for treatment last year? 
Please fill me in so I don't make the same mistake you did.


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## George Fergusson

>Please fill me in so I don't make the same mistake you did.

Hehehe... Nicely put Mike









If you'd like to know what *I* think I did wrong, I'll tell you. First, I bought 20 severely mite-infested hives in the middle of June. I wouldn't suggest doing that







The second mistake I made was that I didn't treat effectively soon enough. Avoid those two mistakes and you should be OK









I figured out I had a mite problem in early July. I first tried a powdered sugar blaster, dusting each frame one at a time. I did 8-10 hives twice, a few days apart. Not only was it largely ineffective, it was an ungodly amount of work and it quickly because clear that there weren't enough hours in the day and days in the week to treat all my hives that way, even if it was effective, which it wasn't.

Next I tried FGMO, fogging all my hives every 3 days for oh, about 2 weeks. It too was largely ineffective, my mite drop counts just continued to rise unabated. By now it was early August and I started seeing deformed wing virus, bees with shrunken abdomens, dead emerging brood with their tongues sticking out, etc. Classic PMS. A few hives had a touch of european foul brood, and one went hopelessly queenless and developed laying workers. Lost that one







By this time I also noticed that many hives were losing bees- their populations were dropping. Double deep hives that had been overflowing with bees in June were now to a single deep. I switched to vaporized oxalic acid. I think I administered 3 treatments a week apart, a few of the worst hives got 4 treatments. I killed a lot of mites.

By now it was September and gee whiz, my hives were light. Way light. Not only had they not produced any surplus that summer, they hadn't done much towards filling up their brood chambers either. I started feeding. By the middle of October I'd fed out around 800 pounds of sugar. During this time I also combined 5-6 weak hives and requeened some as well in the hopes that the larger populations and young queens would make a difference.

By early November my hives were all broodless. I dribbled oxalic acid once and put my hives to bed. I went into winter with 21 hives.

I had my first deadout by the end of December:

http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/deadhive/

I continued to lose hives in January and February. When April arrived, only 2 of those original 20 hives were still alive. Those 2 hives are doing OK now









George-


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## Dave W

If I may be so bold







, I think George made THREE mistakes, not two.

#1 - >First, I bought 20 severely mite-infested hives in the middle of June . . .

#2 - >The second mistake I made was that I didn't treat EFFECTIVELY . . .

#3 - >SOON ENOUGH . . . 

A wise newBEE will cut-n-paste George's story, print it out, AND READ IT OVER AND OVER!!!!


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## longarm

First 24 hour mite drop count POST beginning of Apistan treatment: 935 mites.

[ August 05, 2006, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: longarm ]


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## George Fergusson

It will be interesting to see how that varies over time. I bet you'll see comparable numbers for more than a few days.


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## longarm

mite drop 2nd day post treatment: 397.


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## Dave W

Based on your first day (935) and second day counts, I'll guess your numbers will hold at about the 300 range (a bit less than 2nd day) until 12 days from beginning of treatment (935). After 14-15 days, drop will probably level, at a much, much lower level (no mites left in hive, but kill will reflect "incomming" mites, if any), until strips are removed.

Please, PLEASE, PLEASE, keep doing daily counts and keep us posted.

Thanx,

[ August 07, 2006, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Dave W ]


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## longarm

serious? ok.
i plan to count everyday anyway this week so i'll happily post here. then i go on vacation for a couple of weeks.
tell you what.. there is some satisfaction to be had from killing parasites!
dan


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## longarm

mite drop 3rd day post treatment: 257.


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## wade

Those are some pretty specific and serious predictions Dave W. Are you gonna be my new hero?


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## George Fergusson

DaveW is basing his predictions on his experience with a heavily mite-infested hive and fastidious records. I don't know if you can predict the progress and outcome very accurately since there are so many variables, but clearly, there are classic situations and this appears to be one of them- the general outcome is likely.

I don't agree with Dave's prediction that longarm will kill all the mites in his hive and that any subsequent drop will reflect new incoming mites. No treatment is 100% effective especially considering there is brood in the hive, resistance develops very quickly, and the efficacy of Apistan drops off relatively quickly over time. At the end of treatment, there's likely to be a healthy though substantially reduced mite population still in the hive and with no drone brood to infest, they'll be jumping into worker cells.

The question is, are enough healthy long-lived bees being raised to carry the hive through the winter? I hope so, but I have my doubts.


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## Dave W

I AM NOT A HERO!!!

>I don't agree with Dave's prediction . . .
That's GOOD, but please let me change your mind









>No treatment is 100% effective . . .
I'll agree, since "100% effective" is hard to define.

>especially considering there is brood in the hive . . .
Here is where "this treatment" really shines








In the first 24 hrs, ALL (approx 660) phoretic mites were killed (935 minus approx 250-300).

Each of the next 12-13 days, approx 275 (range of 300) mites per day will hatch out w/ WORKER & DRONE bees. These are "the mites in brood" everyone so much fears. No mites are entering any brood cells, they are ALL being killed.

On days 13, 14, maybe 15, only DRONE brood will be hatching that contains mites. The "275" will decrease dramatically. No new mites are entering brood cells.

After ALL brood EXISTING on day 1 hatches (about day 14), the "kill number" will be only incomming mites. This number his hard to predict and may vary from zero one day, to as much as 200 the next. Only DAILY counting can determine the numbers. No brood capped during the 42 to 56 days strips are present will be infected w/ mites. Only after strips are removed, will mites be allowed to enter cells.

PLEASE keep counting


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## longarm

I like Dave!

4th day: 250 mites.


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## Dave W

Before I can say, "see I told you so"







, we need numbers for the ENTIRE treatment period. 

Please, keep counting.


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## longarm

will do - though i'll unfortunately be out of town for 10 days of it. will count up to then and resume after.
Dan


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## Dave W

Can someone "exchange" sticky boards a couple of times while your gone? If you make up extra boards before you leave, all they would have to do is remove a board and insert a new one. You could do the counting (fun part







) later. Dividing the total found by number of days board was in place will give a "24-hr count".

I sure would like to know how many mites are in your hive.


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## longarm

day 5: 136 mites.
Dave: can't I just set a fresh board on before I leave then count and divide by the number of days as you said above upon my return?
Dan


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## George Fergusson

>can't I just set a fresh board on before I leave 

Sure. Dave would just like to see daily variation









>I sure would like to know how many mites are in your hive.

Oh, about 3500 or so, give or take, when he started. Since then he's killed almost 2000 mites. There's probably around 2000 or so still in there.


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## Dave W

>Dave: can't I just set a fresh board on before I leave then count and divide . . .

IF, if your hive is dropping 200 mites per day and your gone 10 days, 2000 mites will be VERY, VERY hard to find in the pollen, wax particles, and other debris that will accumulate (possible, but very hard to do).

I have found that a MAXIMUN of 7 days works best (for me).

Daily variations are nice to have, but the TOTAL mites in your hive will make more of an impact on YOU.









Daily counts after day 14-15 is need to determine how may mites are comming into your hive EVERY DAY. Knowing this number (along w/ future counts) can give you an idea of how soon the mite population MAY need additional treatment(s).

Please, keep counting!


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## Fusion_power

I'll make a couple of assumptions and see how this works out. There are about 4000 mites in the colony which consists of about 30,000 bees. This gives a density of about 14 mites per 100 bees. While this is well within the danger zone for a colony, its not at death's door. Given that the treatment is in early August, the colony should be in reasonably good condition next year.

I'll agree that some mites will survive the treatment. Best guess is that the colony will go into winter with about 500 mites presuming the treatment lasts at least 45 days. This colony will be in dire straits by July of next year if its not treated again.

Fusion


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## George Fergusson

>There are about 4000 mites in the colony which consists of about 30,000 bees.

Hehe.. we're not far off in our basic assumptions. I too was figuring about a 10% infestation level, which is definitely in the danger zone, I'm of the opinion that a hive with a 14% infestation level probably ain't going to make it no matter what you do.

I personally wouldn't want to go into winter with 500 mites in my hive. If I had a load like that, I'd be inclined to do a late-fall (early November) OA drip treatment.

>Daily counts after day 14-15 is need to determine how may mites are comming into your hive EVERY DAY. 

Mite immigration isn't a foregone conclusion. Could happen. Might not.


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## longarm

day 6: 270 mites!
majority of them are smaller than even yesterday though.


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## Dave W

>Mite immigration isn't a foregone conclusion . . .

Every day as forgers return to hive, they are bring back mites too. We just dont know how many yet (the counts at he end of treatment period will give us an indication).

Keep counting, please.

[ August 11, 2006, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Dave W ]


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## iddee

It may not be a foregone conclusion, but it is well documented that the drones are the biggest carriers of varroa between colonies. They are the only ones welcome to go from colony to colony without being questioned. No other bee has the oportunity to visit multiple hives on a regular basis.


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## longarm

day 7: 168 mites.


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## Dave W

>it is well documented that the drones are the biggest carriers of varroa between colonies . . .

This is news to me







Where is it "well documented"?

Robbers (workers only) are the "carriers" that concerns me. They have the potential to re-infest a hive very quickly. Drones may carry mites INTO hive but probably carry an equal amount OUT as well.


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## gingerbee

Question from a relative newbie:

How can you tell if a hive is affected? How does one count mites?


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## drobbins

Ginger

these days, most new hives come with SBB
(screened bottom board)
here's pics

http://www.beesource.com/plans/ipmbottom.htm

it let's mite that naturally fall off the bee's fall out the bottom of the hive
then you put a piece of cardboard smeared with some vegtable oil under it and the mites get stuck on it and you can pull it out and count em
people typically talk about how many fall out in 24 hrs
a 24 hr natural drop
there all kinds of thoughts on how many constitute a problem
I worry if it's over about 20/day

Dave


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## gingerbee

Dave,

Thanks. I've an older hive and am going to order a SBB.

I'm also trying to decide between fogging with MGFO or using formic acid, maybe even vinegar to rid the hive of mites. 

Is there a source for natural (not plastic) small cell comb?


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## gingerbee

Dave,

Thanks. I've an older hive and am going to order a SBB.

I'm also trying to decide between fogging with FGMO or using formic acid, maybe even vinegar to rid the hive of mites. 

Is there a source for natural (not plastic) small cell comb?


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## drobbins

Dadant has the biggest selection

http://www.dadant.com/

Brushy Mountain has it for deeps only I think

http://www.beeequipment.com/products.asp?cat=6&pg=2

these are foundation, not drawn comb

Dave


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## BjornBee

iddee,
I agree with your comments as a whole although as DaveW pointed out, the "documented" part may be lacking.

A few points....

Drones do in fact drift and are welcome from one hive to another. That point is documented.

Diane Cox at Penn State in researching virus vectors, had stated and documented that mites transfer(along with Virus transfer) happens within an apiary on a regular basis. Her research goal was not based on these findings and was not the point at hand. So the facts and data have been stated on a casual observation level. These hives being tested had shown a great transfer of virus and mite loads that were not attributed to robbing.

I'll assume it must be in part to drone drift. Although in doing many sugar shakes, it is common to see bees covered in sugar an hour later in another hive. At first I thought it may be just confused bees, being covered in sugar and all. But further observations would make it appear for other reasons. Just how many worker bees drift is hard to say. May be in part to both worker and drone drifting.

I do beleive drones play a bigger part in mite transfer than first thought, especially at this time of year. Drones being kicked out of one hive, may just go to the next hive. Hives rearing late swarm queens and those superceding may allow these drones into the hives in great numbers. At this time of the year, with the increasing mite loads, such drone increases can drastically change mite loads. This my opinions based on observations, and of course not "well documented".

The one way to eliminate the drone impact on hives through drift would be to do mite counts while using drone excluders. This would eliminate the drone factor while making comments from DaveW like "Drones may carry mites INTO hive but probably carry an equal amount OUT as well." a non issue. (Dissmissing one persons comments while using "may" and "probably" is a little hard to swallow.) As of this time I know no such test, thereby making drones a real possibility of mite transfer. Drone drifting through the year may have one level of impact, and drones congregating in receptive hives after being kicked out of another may cause an increase impact.


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## longarm

day 8: 226 mites.
die suckas, die!


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## longarm

day 9: 265 mites.
my last count for about 10 - 12 days as i am leaving town now. will resume upon return.

[ August 13, 2006, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: longarm ]


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## iddee

So I will change it and just say drones are the largest carriers of varroa between hives. Rather than saying documented, I will do as my father did and just say, "cause I said so". That better?


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## George Fergusson

>Drones may carry mites INTO hive but probably carry an equal amount OUT as well.

Yeah. If mite immigration was primarily due to drifting, you'd expect mite populations in your hives to sort of even out over time, sort of like how the population in a small town remains stable over time- every time a baby is born, a man leaves town...

I wasn't suggesting that mite immigration doesn't occur, I know it does but unless a dying hive full of mites is being robbed out, I'd expect changes in mite populations due to immigration to be minor. Maybe?


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## iddee

Changes in population, yes. I would think the biggest factor there would be the amount of brood present. I do not think you go from 100 mites to 5000 mites in a hive through mite travel.

What about initial infestation of strong hives that aren't being robbed out, or robbing out? Even if you have a 100% kill and have no mites in a hive that is too strong to allow any robbers in,and find no weak hives to rob, it will still become infested. That is the thing I am crediting the drones with. The mite devastated the bees of NC in a matter of a few years. I do not believe they spread that fast from robbing.


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## George Fergusson

>What about initial infestation of strong hives that aren't being robbed out, or robbing out?

Spontaneous generation iddee, a proven mechanism for establishing life where no life existed before. They come from... the ether


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## iddee

>> You don't have to be a pedantic hyper-technical former land surveyor like myself to figure it out [Smile]

>Yes, you are perfectly correct, in a pedantic,
hyper-technical way.

That's me, and Thank You! It is rare these days when I get such acknowledgment [Smile]<<

>>Spontaneous generation iddee, a proven mechanism for establishing life where no life existed before. They come from... the ether [Smile]<<

George, you are just tooooo modest. You should really learn to take credit for your magnificent genius.


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## George Fergusson

Oh wow, I just experienced deja vu and amnesia at the same time, I feel like I've read this thread before but I forget where...

>George, you are just tooooo modest.

Eh? Say what? One can't be too modest, or too humble. Nobody likes a know-it-all that blows their own horn


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## BjornBee

FOUL! Alert the moderators. George just said he does not like almost all beekeepers. I vote to have him banned from the site. How dare he say he does not like beekeepers by saying "Nobody likes a know-it-all that blows their own horn [[Smile]] "


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## Dave W

Way to go guys! We had 'em going, and George had to go let the cat out of the bag









>Spontaneous generation . . .

A perfect description of Varroa


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## George Fergusson

>George had to go let the cat out of the bag

Sigh. I can't say anything right


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## longarm

Hello again all. Returned from vacation to a stickyboard absolutely covered in hive debris and an estimated several thousand mites. Too much to sort through (sorry Dave). 
So I put a fresh board on and after 24 hours I have 112 mites on it!! 
Does that seem pretty high after 20 days of Apistan treatment?
Dan


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## BjornBee

I'd say. Your pretreatment level was like 71. Are you sure apistan is effective? Did you ask your package supplier what he treated the bees with before he gave them to you? You could have resistant mites. Do a pettis test.


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## longarm

Was wondering the same Bjornbee about the possibility of the mites being resistant.
But what is a pettis test?
Dan


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## BjornBee

Dan, I'll see if I can scan the procedure and post or send it tomorrow. Its alot to type out. Basically its putting some bees in a jar and after the chemical kills the mites, you sugar shake the remaining mites out to see what percentage is being killed by the strips. I know it was typed out previously on beesource in another thread so maybe you could search it out and see what others have said also.


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## Dave W

Longarm . . .

Please add up the numbers, 935+397+257+250+136+270+168+266+265+"an estimated several thousand"+112. Does this sound like resistant mites?

112 is within the realm of "invasion". Lets see MORE counts. Please do them the same way as all others.

Edited to add:
We need at least 4 or 5 (or more) consecutive counts. 
thanx.

[ August 26, 2006, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Dave W ]


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## longarm

todays winning number: 127.

i hate mites.
i hate counting mites.


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## iddee

You can't let us down now. With a steady drop like that, we've got to see what the 42 day count is.

PS. Just thought I would chime in to say thanks. This is a very educational thread, and I'm sure there are many lurkers enjoying it, too.
Thanks for doing it.


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## George Fergusson

>we've got to see what the 42 day count is.

These guys probably got a pool going. How can I get in on the action?


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## BjornBee

George, send me your twenty dollars and the number. I've got you covered...


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## hummingberd

Hi all, seems a little late to chime in, but I just recently acquired a nuc of bees, and the woman who sold them to me went from a single hive to 11 of her own healthy hives, and she has sold 9 this year! She gave me a recipe for what she calls "grease patties" 1 cup sugar, 1/2 cup crisco, about 7-10 shakes of wintergreen essential oil. Make into patties on waxed paper. Invert patty on to of frames. The theory is that the bees will see the patty and say "what they hell is this" being such great housekeepers, they will carry the grease out, covering themselves in the grease, and suffocating the mites & making it so their suction cuppy hands cant hold onto the bees. The essential oil will be transferred to the honey and brood where is is thought to produce deformed mites that cannot hold on to their host. This obviously cannot be used while supers are on the hive unless you enjoy the taste of wintergreen honey! Any thoughts on this treatment. Be nice...I'm new here. hehe.

Thanks!


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## longarm

Well.. I will continue counting the freakin mites as long as someone sees it as a productive pastime. 
On the other hand I am wondering if there is something more pro-active I can be doing to save this hive?
As a side note another hive I keep not even 30 feet from the one I have been posting about showed today a mite count of ZERO. What gives?
Dan


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## George Fergusson

>As a side note another hive I keep not even 30 feet from the one I have been posting about showed today a mite count of ZERO. What gives?

Are you treating them too, or just checking drops?


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## Mike Gillmore

> Any thoughts on this treatment. <

Hummingbird,

I use regular Grease Patties year round, sugar and Crisco, without essential oils. This way I am certain that none of the hives' honey has been tainted. Plain Grease patties are very effective in "controlling" Tracheal Mite but to have an impact on the Varroa Mite as well, they should also contain Wintergreen oil and Salt. This site will give you a little information on the patties. Hope this helps some.

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/GresPates.pdf#search=%22grease%20patties%22

[ August 27, 2006, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Mike Gillmore ]


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## rache

mike, for using grease patties over the winter, do you have them on just the frames of the top box (assuming two deeps, like mine) or on top of the frames of both boxes (i.e., sandwiched between the boxes)?

poor longarm, i'm impressed he hasn't just run away screaming yet.


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## longarm

today's count: 94.

George: Yes the other hive is being treated the same way/time as this infected hive. Its count again today: zero mites.


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## George Fergusson

>Yes the other hive is being treated the same way/time as this infected hive.

Thanks Longarm.

OK. Now someone explain to me why the drop in his infested hive is fully attributable to mite immigration, as DaveW suggests? If they're immigrating into one hive at the rate of a hundred or so every day, why aren't any turning up in his other hive?

I didn't believe his continuing daily drop was due to immigration in the first place but I didn't have a basis to argue the point. Now I do. 

DaveW: Defend yourself!


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## Dave W

Well George









We have two hives, one is robbing and one is not. Where is the robbing hive getting the mites? We dont know for sure







, do we? 


longarm . . .
What are YOU learning from this "productive pastime"? Please, please, please keep counting. 

>wondering if there is something more pro-active I can be doing to save this hive?

This hive needs a new queen. August is said to be a good time to requeen. But, if this hive IS being invaded by a 100 or so mites a day and that continues AFTER you remove the strips, two things cound happen. You could treat again w/ something DIFFERENT, like OA in November, and hope hive pulls through winter. Or, order new package to replace the dead hive that may collapse yet this fall.

Sorry, I dont have good news.
Remember, I am NOT a HERO!


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## longarm

'156 mites on the wall'.. etc.


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## Fusion_power

Fishy, Fishy, Fishy.

You started treatment on August 4th if my memory is correct. All unsealed brood should have been capped and have emerged by August 25th. That means the varroa counts should have dropped to very low levels by now.

If the theory does not agree with the facts, throw out the theory and come up with a new theory that does fit the facts. The only supportable conclusion is that this colony is bringing in a huge load of varroa on a daily basis. The only place they could be getting that much of a mite load is from another heavily infested colony. I'll agree with the above. This colony is robbing a severely infested colony somewhere nearby. You probably have one colony robbing and another colony staying at home minding its business.

Do you have a fall honeyflow? If so, when does it start? I'm guessing goldenrod should start to bloom sometime soon. When that happens, the bees will be busy gathering nectar and will stop the robbing.

Just as a sideline, if you stop treating now, within a month this colony will be just as badly parasitized by varroa as it was before you started treating. This emphasizes that treatment is NOT a panacea. Its one possible step in a sequence of actions with lots of negatives along the way. One beekeeper I know leaves the apistan strips on his colonies all winter long. This is bad all the way around because it causes maximum comb contamination.

Fusion


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## George Fergusson

Well, I propose that the mites are still breeding. I don't believe all the original mites in Longarm's hive are dead and if there's a hive nearby crashing from varroa, why aren't both of his hives robbing it out? Defending the proposition that the ongong mite drop is due to immigration alone by saying "one is robbing and one is not." doesn't work for me Dave







It seems to me that when robbing is the order of the day, hives are either robbing, or being robbed and if they're strong enough to defend against robbing, they're probably the ones doing the robbing









If dealing with mites were as simple as putting Apistan strips in your hives for 40 days once a year, life would be easy and beekeeping would be easy too. It's a well known fact that treating hives while the bees are actively raising brood is if not a losing battle, then a war of attrition and all you can really hope to do is knock down the mite population to the point where the bees can handle the load. You shouldn't expect any decisive battles! Successfully beating mites involves vigilance and an integrated management strategy- there ain't no Silver Bullet.

I am reminded of Stephen Martin's example of a hive with 5000 mites in it being treated with a 98% effective treatment once a year. It took 3 years to reduce the mite population to zero.


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## drobbins

I believe if I had 1 hive with this problem and another hive with no problem I'd be putting a lot of effort into raising a queen from the hive with no problem
do you still have time for that where you are?

Dave


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## longarm

Dave,
Thanks for the input. I might have time to raise a queen from the 'good' hive.... on the other hand there is a breedder in the immediate area who breeds hygenics. 
But will dropping a new queen into this infested hive make any difference??
Dan


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## drobbins

apparently there's a beekeeper sitting at your keyboard who HAS hygenic bee's








unfortunately changing the queen in your hive won't be a "quick fix"
I think if I were in your boot's I'd continue down the path you're on and hope you can get em thru the winter
next spring I'd focus on getting a queen from your "good" hive to requeen this one
why buy a queen from some guy down the road when you have a proven performer in your yard??
if the hive with mites croaks, where ya gonna get replacements from?? (hint, hint, the good hive)









Dave

[edit]there are several techniques for easily raising one or two queens from a hive or making a split

[ August 28, 2006, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## George Fergusson

>I think if I were in your boot's I'd continue down the path you're on and hope you can get em thru the winter

I agree.


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## sierrabees

Interesting observations on some mite counts.

Treated four hives with oxalic acid yeasterday. None of these hive had been treated all summer because they were involved in a queen rearing program. 

Hive zero (haven't had time to number it) was used as a queenless finisher. Was given sealed brood only to keep it up to strength. Raised no brood all summer. Has a new queen and brood nest about the size of a small orange 24 hr post treatment 15 mites.

Hive 15 was a support hive that provided the brood for one of the finishers. Had superseded recently and the new queen just started laying. Eggs present but no larvae. 24 hr post treatment 1900 mites.

Hive 10, support hive, superseded, new queen just took mating flight yesterday. 24 hr post treatment 1600 mites. This hive is the result of combining the support have and finisher hive from this unit.

All three of these had virtually no brood so I assume almost all of the mites were on the bees when treated so the mite fall should represent a pretty good housecleaning.

I don't have time to do daily counts but I will be retreating everything around October and will re check at that time.


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## longarm

Dave and George - Thank you both for the continued input on what to do. 
I had been planning to make splits for friends next year .. turns out I may need to to keep bees in MY boxes.


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## beedeetee

> It seems to me that when robbing is the order of the day, hives are either robbing, or being robbed and if they're strong enough to defend against robbing, they're probably the ones doing the robbing


I don't believe that is true. My experience is when I see robbing in my yard, I can tell which hive it is. Many times it is just one or two.

If one hive has a lot more entrance activity, that is probably the robbing hive. When I put my wet supers out in my lawn, only two hives seem to find them. The others had only a small amount of activity while those two had a lot of activity by 6:00 am.

In our area, from August 1 to November will be robbing season. I am in the same general area as Longarm. We have none in the spring or early summer.

I have a hive like Longarm. Four of my hives were dropping 20-40 mites per day. I have one that dropped one mite after 7 days. I don't know why. It was my best producer this year and was a cutout from a wood duck house this spring. I got it in April and it had no mites in June that I could detect.

[ August 29, 2006, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: beedeetee ]


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## Fusion_power

George,

If you are correct re the mites are still breeding, then the hive would have to be overrun with mites to drop ~150 per day. It would be crashing big time. It would also be conclusive proof that the mites were apistan tolerant.

On the other hand, if the ~150 mites per day are dropping because they are being killed by the apistan, then the mites are coming from elsewhere.

There is no middle ground here. Either the colony is on the verge of total crash or else its nearly mite free with a large load of mites entering the colony each day.

Fusion


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## George Fergusson

>There is no middle ground here.

Heh. Well, I'm not saying there isn't any immigration going on, but I'll stand by my opinion, it's consistent with my stand throughout this and similar threads: I think the mites are still breeding. If I'm wrong, well, I've got nothing to lose but my reputation! I'll be devastated, but hopefully I'll still be able to look at myself in the mirror in the morning!

Referring back to the beginning of this thread, this is a first-year hive of italians, started from a 3# package. It's unusual but not unheard of for first year packages to have such a mite load the first summer. Packages are typically treated and if they're not mite-free to begin with, they're virtually so. Clearly this hive started with a healthy mite load. This situation might be due to the presence of restistant mites, or the package may not have been properly treated. Dunno.

>It would be crashing big time. It would also be conclusive proof that the mites were apistan tolerant.

It was beginning to crash. It was dropping in excess of 70 mites a day and rising. As for Apistan tolerance, that's a real possibility.

There are always going to be some resistant mites. Always. That's why there are no 100% effective treatments, except for Michael Bush's preferred single-application dynamite treatment of course









Furthermore, resistance develops rapidly with varroa because the majority of the mites inbreed and traits favoring resistance are passed on directly. Only if multiple foundress mites enter the same cell to breed is cross breeding possible, and even then it's not guaranteed- if 2 foundress mites enter a cell, there's only a 50:50 chance that the females will mate with other than their own brother.

If any of you have ever played with VarroaPop, the mite population modeling software developed by Dr. Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman of the Carl Hayden Bee Research Lab and available for free download, you might have a greater appreciation for the way varroa populations can explode exponentially under the right conditions.


----------



## eric101

>I'd really like to hear form someone who may have tried "pull and freeze" approach.

Well I killed two productive queens right after the flow this year, had them raise new queens, and tried the drone trap method to catch the phoretic mites. Not sure how well it worked - will tell you next spring. The new queens are laying - suppose I should feed 1:1 right now.

I kind of did this as an experiment as last year I lost all my hives to mites. Used powdered sugar weekly - that obviously did not work - likely due to mites in cells.

Using Apiguard on my other three colonies. Will see what happens.

Eric


----------



## Dave W

The ONLY way I can see to declare "I AM RIGHT"







is to screen the hive entrance and take AT LEAST two 24hr counts. The first count could be high - maybe the mites found today came into hive yesterday, I dont know. Second, third, fourth count (w/ no traffic into hive) WILL BE ZERO!!!








.

If no other action is taken, soon (maybe next day) after strips are removed, daily "natural" drop will be very near zero (for a while). If these invading mites continue to enter, some (probably not all) will enter any open brood (if brood is available), some will be carried OUT of hive, and some will remain phoretic (attached to bees). As bees hatch w/ new mites and as phoretic mites die of old age, the "natural" mite drop will again begin to increase (this gives some the idea that the mites are "resistant to the treatment". Clearly







, not true.


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## Dave W

Hey!!! Wunder if feeding the hive would keep the robbers home????

Have any of the above counts been during a "rainy day"?

I KNOW I'm right! I KNOW I'm right


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## longarm

another day.. another mite count: 86 today.


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## longarm

Dave - today is the first overcast day in quite a while. It is just starting to drizzle outside. Only 86 mites. Yesterdays temp. was in low 90's as were most days previous, a few over 100 degrees.
I like the idea of feeding the hive though!
Dan


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

When the bees are confined due to bad weather like a loooooong rain storm, you can see that in your counts. Even in winter, hot and cold days can be easily noted. Are days over 100 F "low" days too?

>I like the idea of feeding the hive though!
Try it! Cant hurt.

Better not try the "screening". Days in the 90s or 100 might kill the bees.


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## longarm

todays count: 112 mites. weather was cold last night (low 40's) and is overcast and cool now.
hive 2 count still real low at 5 mites.


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## TroyDere

I read through all 5 pages of this thread today. 

I had a hive about a month ago that was crashing due to SHB. The hive beetles were everywhere and the frames were all nasty and oily with their residue. I took all the frames except the one that had some brood and the queen on it and froze them. I gave them 9 new frames of plastic foundation.

I then moved the hive to a new location and I pretreated the ground at the new location with Guardstar. 

The hive is making a comeback now, but I have only given them one more of their original frames back. I too was wondering how well they would be able to clean up all that mess. In fact I haven't given the frames back as I did not want to burden the already weak hive with the task of cleaning out all of the other frames.

After reading this thread it has me wondering if I did the right thing for the wrong reasons. Maybe they were crashing from Varroa and I just wasn't paying attention. Maybe I just got lucky here. 

I know I'm a bad boy for not doing varroa counts, but was curious what others think.

Troy


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## TroyDere

I'm also curious about the whole freeze and give back approach. If we had a standard 10 frame brood box, then they would have 3+ frames of mostly brood and 3+ of Pollen and 3+ of Honey in there. 

Obviously the honey is no problem to freeze and return to them. 

Unless the pollen gets harder to remove from the comb, I assume it is no problem either.

But what about all the dead brood. Can a healthy colony resonably be expected to be able to clean out many thousands of dead brood from the frames in a day or so before it gets to stinking?

Should we give it back to them more slowly so they have time to clean it out?

Has anybody done this?

Troy


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## drobbins

Troy,

sorry to hear of your trouble with SHB, hope you get it under control, sounds like you're making progress
I haven't had trouble with them but most folks talk about using some kind of traps for them
the traps have some kind of bait, sometimes it's just a refuge from the bees, and some way to keep the bees out. Then you kill the mites with FGMO, DE or vegetable oil
As far as mites, people talk about freezing drone comb to kill mites but you didn't mention drones
I think if you freeze worker brood to kill mites you'll have a classic case of "the operation was a success, but the patient died"








worker brood is to precious a resource to destroy like that
it's kinda the whole problem with varroa, they hide in the most valuable thing the hive has

Dave

[ August 30, 2006, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## George Fergusson

Hasn't anyone here messed with VarroaPop?


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## drobbins

George

gimme a URL
I'll mess with it
I followed the discussion last year

Dave

[edit] Psst, I know I can google it
post it anyway









[ August 30, 2006, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## George Fergusson

Here ya go Dave









http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/soft/vpop/vpop.html 

It's a bit quirky, and the documentation is a bit light. Most of the quirks resolve themselves and understanding dawns after banging on the proggy for a while. The graphs are cool, but after a while you get pretty good at looking at the numbers output and seeing what's going on.

The weather file took me a while to figure out. What they don't tell you anywhere is that the date range of the simulation is limited to the date range of the weather data in the file, so if your data covers the range 1/1/1999 to 12/31/2001 and you try to run a simulation from sometime in 1998 until 2002, it'll bomb on you. I fabricated a larger file to work with simply by copying and pasting the data and editing dates where necessary.

[edit]There doesn't seem to be any way to extrapolate projected drop counts from population figures except by a seat of the pants application of common sense and an understanding of how drop relates to the amount of brood rearing, which is basically proportional- the more brood rearing, the higher the drop, the less brood rearing, the smaller the drop. Your multiplier therefore is bass-ackwards i.e., a small multiplier between 20 and 50 when there is brood rearing going on and between 200 and 500 when there isn't brood rearing going on... 

Anyways, it's too bad VarroaPop doesn't output projected daily drops because drop counts are often the only way we have of comparing whats going on with the model and what's going on with our hives.

I can send you some data files once you get going but the installation has everything needed to get going.

George-

[ August 30, 2006, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: George Fergusson ]


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## longarm

mite count for the last 3 days: 475. average per day = 158. temperature has been hot (100 for 2 of the past 3 days).

mite count in the other hive average 5/day for the past 3 days.


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## George Fergusson

Keep up the good work longarm. That crashing varroa-infested hive that has supposedly been supplying all these mites, it must be about cleaned out by now! It would have been emptied out in a few days if they were my bees doing the robbing... my bees really know how to rob. I left out 2 shallow supers partly filled with uncured honey today and they were both empty by mid-afternoon. They wasted little time finding the supers and even less time emptying them









Have you noticed a significant increase in weight of this hive? If they've been robbing, they should be putting up a good deal of honey. If they're not putting on weight, they're probably not robbing.


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## iddee

George, you have to be kidding. It's been five weeks. They would have robbed out every hive within flying distance by now.
The fact is, there is no 100% kill. They will keep falling as long as they are treated. Only when the number of mites is reduced to the point that the bees can take care of them and prosper long enough to build a resistance will the drop count be consistently below ten.


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## longarm

George, Iddee,
The hive is full of honey. Lots and lots of bees too.. strange - for all the mites I have seen come from this hive the bees themselves are hard workers and seem to act much like the bees from my other hives. Guess I just somehow expected them to be acting ill in some way.. but not yet.
No mites in the other hives in my yard.


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## George Fergusson

>George, you have to be kidding. It's been five weeks. They would have robbed out every hive within flying distance by now.

I was trying to be nice iddee, and give the mite immigration proponents the benefit of the doubt...

>The fact is, there is no 100% kill.

We agree. Immigration happens, but I don't think you're going to see it as a slow, steady influx of mites over a long period of time. Rather, I think you're going to see a large jump in the mite population over the course of a few days- more of a "Holy Smokes, where did all those mites come from all of a sudden?" scenario.


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## longarm

another 24 hour count: 232


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

Thanx for the counts.

For the record, please tell us (again?) how may "frames of bee" you had when you started treating, and how may strips (and where) you inserted then. 

>The hive is full of honey . . .
Do you have honey supers on this hive now?

>No mites in the other hives in my yard . . .
Do you have more than two hives?


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## longarm

Dave,
I put 2 strips per deep box in opposite and alternating corners, 2 frames from the edge, as per instructions. The top deep looks to be mostly honey. I have had no supers on the hive during treatment. As I recall the bottom box, at the time I started treatment, was full of brood.
I have 4 hives in the yard, one which just arrived a week ago. All 4 are being treated.
The hive that is infected was started in April from a #3 package of Italians. They made 2 westerns of honey before treatment started.
Can you make any sense of it?
Dan
Any theories?


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

>Can you make any sense of it . . .
1) A first-year, double-deep hive of Italian bees.
2) Top deep, mostly honey. Thats good








3) Bottom deep w/ brood. Sounds normal for this time of year.
4) 4 strips of Apistan w/ NO honey supers on hive.
5) Honey removed = 2 mediums.
6) Three other hives nearby.
7) All hives treated at same time.

In order to get a feel for bee population, how many frames (guess ok) do you think is covered from top to bottom, end bar to end bar, on both sides. 10, 15, 20 frames?

When you remove the strips (soon??), please note how much brood is then present. I suggest lifting ea frame and checking both sides. As I do ANY inspection, I "talk to myself" and a mini recorder in my chest pocket. Later, I play-back and add info to my hive notes in my computer. A sample might sould like this, "Frame number 7 on south side of chamber number 1, south side, no brood. North side, no brood. Frame number 9, south side, 10% brood. North side, 50% brood. etc, etc."

By estimating the "percentage" of side filled, I can later determine the hive "has 4 frames of brood" (and actual amount may not be enough to fill one frame). Later on, with experience, YOU may not need the recorder









>Any theories . . .
About what?


GOOD JOB!
Thanx


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## longarm

Dave,
Took a look in that hive today. Here's what I know - a little less information than I would have liked as I ran out of smoke and the bees were pissed.
Top deep: Zero brood, or eggs, or larvae. About 70% filled with capped honey.
Bottom deep: Many frames filled with pollen. Maybe 3 frames of brood and larvae. Did not see any eggs or the queen.
Bees: total both boxes estimate 14 frames covered with bees both sides.

What I meant re: any theories (above post) was simply to ask if you have any idea how to get this hive through winter? This is my first year at this and I haven't a clue.. would rather do SOMETHING than sit and wwatch them slowly die off.. if there is something to be done.


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## pahvantpiper

"would rather do SOMETHING than sit and watch them slowly die off.. if there is something to be done."

Seeing that you're willing to use chemicals...I know many commercial guys who have used Maverik and shortning or Maverik and crop oil this past year. It's not approved for use in beehives, yet, but the mites are not resistant to it, yet. Anyway, out of thousands of hives these commercial beeks say they have zero mites.


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

After you have removed the strips, there are other treatment options. This hive CAN live through this winter. Sounds like it has a good amount of stores and a good size population of bees, both are "much needed" to get through the winter.

Now, let me ask a DUMB question, are you sure







you are only counting mites (not other hive debris), and not counting them twice?























Can you estimate AMOUNT of brood?
Example = Frame 1, 3" area one side, 6" area other. Frame 2, 6" area + 6" area.


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## longarm

Thanks. Maverick? I'll look into it. Dave: which other methods would you recommend? Yep - mites, not debris. and zero chance they are being counted twice - i have sticky paper with lines drawn across it every half inch so i just follow along and count.
filthy freakin mites..


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## nhbloke

Longarm, I would like to thank you for keeping count as this is a very good topic and I am learning a lot, also thanks to all who have given advice, it even made me do a test on my hive which being a package this year I thought was all set, I shall find out tomorrow. John


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## George Fergusson

>Maverick?

This is a labeled pesticide that is NOT approved for use in beehives. I believe but I may be wrong that it's a forumlation of fluvalinate like Apistan but at a much higher concentration. Some of the "big boys" use it- illegally. If you have any reservations at all about putting dangerous chemicals in your hives, I wouldn't even consider Maverik. I believe it's Maverik- Maverick would appear to be an herbicide.


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

On Oct 20, 1987 the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (USDA APHIS) approved (Sec 18 Crisis Exemption) the use of plywood strips soaked w/ Mavrik or Spur for DETECTION of Varroa. Dec 30, 1987 soaked plywood strips were approved (Sec 18 Special Exemption) for TREATMENT. Mar 21, 1988 - Permission to use wooden strips was RESCINDED. Replaced by Apistan.

DO NOT USE fluvalinate in any way other than w/ Apistan strips. Apistan can cause YOU problems and any other use of fluvalinate wiil cause EVERYONE problems. Don't do it!
_____________________________________

>Yep - mites, not debris. and zero chance they are being counted twice . . .
That's Great! (Sorry, I just had to ask







)

Please tell us about your "brood examination" on Sep 8th.

Can you estimate AMOUNT of brood?
Example = Frame 1, 3" area one side, 6" area other. Frame 2, 6" area + 6" area.
Did any of the caps have holes?
What color were the cappings?
Were there patches of brood, or was it all in one area? Any "holes" created by single cells not being capped?
What color was the uncapped larvae?

PS - We would "still" like to see mite counts









[ September 11, 2006, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Dave W ]


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## longarm

Dave and George,
Scratch Maverik (and Maverick!)from the list of options then..
Dave - I'll do a more thorough exam this week and supply you with the numbers, etc you are asking for. And will get back on mite counts.
d.


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## longarm

24hr count: 192 mites.


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

When are you planning to remove Apistan strips?


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## longarm

Well the package states 42 - 56 days total for treatment. The strips have been in my hives now for 40 days. So... this weekend probably.


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## longarm

another 24 hr count: 116. 48 degrees last night, cool and cloudy today (61 degrees at noon).
hive 2 only 9 mites.


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## George Fergusson

It will be interesting to see what the drops are after you pull the strips. Any guesses Dave?


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## longarm

i'm afraid to hear....


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## wade

I have a guess. The count will go way down.


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## longarm

today's count 131. 
(hive 2: 4)

Dave: I'll do a thorough brood check tomorrow or Sunday when I remove strips.


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## Dave W

George . . .
>drops after you pull the strips. Any guesses Dave?

Sorry, I dont have "any quesses"







I posted what I expect to see on August 29, 2006 at 11:32 AM. It begins with, "If no other action is taken".

longarm . . . thank you.


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## longarm

last day of treatment, Apistan removed. count: 171.
(in hive 2 Apistan also removed, mite count: 14)


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## longarm

Well.. here's what I have seen so far today in that hive. 
H=honey, B=brood, P=pollen, L=larvae, E=empty comb, --- = flip to other side of that frame.

Top deep:
1) 20%H, 0%B, 80%E --- 100%H
2) 100%H --- 60%P, 40%H
3) 15%H, 85%E --- 15%B, 85%H+P
4) 15%H, 85%B and L, 5%E --- same
5) 10%H, 70%B + L, 20%E --- same
6) 50%B, 10%H, 40%E --- 80%B, 10%H, 10%E
7) 70%B, 30%H --- same
8) 30%H, 5%B, 65%E --- 50%B, 25%H, 25%E
9) 80%H, 20%E --- 25%H, 75%E
10) 100%H --- 100%E (Undrawn)

Have not opened bottom deep yet. Bees were going absolutely nuts. It also didn't help that the first frame I pulled the topbar came completely off and the frame, heavy with honey, fell into the hive... then my gloves came apart at the seams.. then perhaps more significantly as I continued to make notes on each frame a robbing situation at the entrance became obvious. Bees were falling to the ground attacking each other, a large clot of battling bees on the landing board. 
Will open bottom box tomorrow.
The results thusfar were a big surprise to me. As recently as September 8 the top box was 70% honey and zero brood or eggs.
Beginning that same day I have fed the hive 5 quarts of 2:1 syrup via a boardman feeder and have observed no robbing, despite looking for signs of that activity closely.
What happened to all the honey??


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## longarm

mite count for today: 117 (Apistan was removed from top deep yesterday, and from bottom deep today). 

Bottom deep results:
1) 100% undrawn --- 80%H, 20%E
2) 60%H, 40%P --- 30%H, 50%P, 20%E
3) 90%P, 10%H --- same
4) 100% undrawn --- 10%H, 70%P, 20%E
5) 75%P, 25%E --- 60%P, 40 E
6) 40%P, 10%H, 50%E --- 40%P, 60%E
7) 25%P, 25%H, 50%E --- 50%H, 50%E
8) 25%H, 25%P, 50%E --- 75%H, 25%E
9) 85%H, 10%P, 5%E --- 90%H, 10%E
10) 100%H --- same

Also - I did not see ANY eggs, or the queen (though I really wasn't looking for her). There were no swarm or supercedure cells in either deep.

[ September 17, 2006, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: longarm ]


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

Your (first?) "true" brood nest examination has provided a lot of useful, acurate information. Excellent job!

The only additional info that would (always) be helpful is an "accurate guessitmate" of bee population.

Please give us a "few" more counts (then I'll stop asking, promise







) Thank you.


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## longarm

mite count: 114.
(hive 2: 13)

Dave - will continue counts, no sweat.
Re: estimate of number of bees in the infected hive. Conservatively each frame I pulled in both boxes was 2/3 covered with bees. Many were completely covered and I had to apply smoke to even see what the frame contained under them. The undrawn frames were void of bees, and the empty comb frames were ~ half covered. Seems like a lot of bees to me.
This hive.. seems unlikely to last very long this Fall. Would you agree? Is there any way to salvage the bees in it? I mean if I combine them into another hive won't they bring their mites with them? I have 1 hive that still has Apistan strips in it for another week. Might that one work?
Or are they just doomed?
Dan


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## Dave W

>estimate of number of bees . . .
>Conservatively each frame I pulled in both boxes was 2/3 covered . . .

If 3000 bees completely covers a deep frame, top-to-bottom, bar-to-bar, and you "pulled" 20 frames that were 2/3 covered, that would be 39,600 bees.

An unrestricted package colony's population peaks at about 50,000 bees mid to late September [Ref 4, p91, 102] w/ bees covering at least 17-20 frames. 

Would you say this hive's bee population has declined in last couple months?
Sep 8 - "total both boxes estimate 14 frames covered with bees both sides" (14 x 3000 = 42,000).


>This hive.. seems unlikely to last very long this Fall . . .
At this point, I do not agree. But it needs help! 

When you examined frames, 
1) Did any of the brood caps have holes?
2) What color were the brood cappings?
3) Were there patches of brood, or was it all in one area (per frame)? 
4) Any "holes" created by single cells not being capped? (Spotty Brood)
5) What color was the uncapped larvae?


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## longarm

Dave,
First, thanks for your continued interest in this hive. It has been a learning experience for sure.
No I would not say the population has declined in the last couple of months - if anything the opposite. Yesterday and the day before I was quite surprised by the numbers of bees pouring out of it.
Re: the brood caps - they appeared without perforations and were in all ways just like capped brood I see in the other hives. Slightly darker than tan cappings. They were both in patches on frames and in isolated contiguous areas. There were also a few cells capped and isolated on their own surrounded by either empty cells or cells partially filled with nectar. No frame I examined had an entire side of brood, or really anything close to it. Some of the comb that had previously held bees was partially filled with nectar.
Larvae appeared normal bright white. At first I thought I was seeing more than one in a cell but upon closer exam it was a larvae and some white liquid (in worker comb - not queen cell, drone cell, etc).
This help?
d.


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## George Fergusson

>No I would not say the population has declined in the last couple of months - if anything the opposite.

I'm not surprised longarm, as I'm of the opinion that the consistent drop over the past month you've been seeing is the result of mites breeding, not immigration and if mites are breeding, then bees are emerging.

I too am interested in and have been following the saga of this hive. I'm interested in what you see in the way of daily drops now that you've taken the strips out. Within a week I expect the mite fall to drop to about 1/2 of what you've been seeing, roughly 40-50 mites per day, then slack off over time as brood rearing slows down. By late October (if you're still counting) when brood rearing is finished for the season, your daily drop should fall to almost nothing.


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## longarm

mites: 98.


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## BjornBee

Good one george....


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## longarm

today's count: 76 mites. 64 degrees and overcast.
(hive 2: 12 mites)

George, thanks for your continued interest. I will keep counting these mites as long as it is useful to others in some way. 
I am, however, very interested in saving this hive if anyone knows how...........


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

Here are some "facts" you have given us about your hive:

1) On Sep 16th & 17th you indicated that the top chamber contained approx 22,700 cells of brood. Thus, about 1000 bees have been hatching each of the past 21 days. 

2) On Sep 18th you describe a hive w/ "normal" brood. 

If your hive has been DROPPING mites that have hatched out during the last 21 days at a rate of 150 to 200 per day from only 1000 cells of brood, your "normal brood" description would be very different. Your mite drop of the last 21 days was NOT from HATCHING mites. 

You asked, "What happened to the honey?" 
Your hive weight on Sep 8th (Top chamber) was 35 lbs. On Sep 16, 20.25 lbs., that's a LOSS of 14.75 lbs. Two things could have happened,

1) Robbers came INTO hive - bringing mites w/ them.

2) Or your bees ate the honey. 

3) Maybe both









Do you realize your hive currently has only 40.25 lbs (20.25 top + 20.0 bottom) of honey for winter? Do you NEED 60-70 lbs?

Something else your notes indicate, your hive is UPSIDE down, your brood is in the top chamber. I would reverse chambers, relocate all frames w/ honey in top chamber and feed, feed, feed. Use top feeder. Save Boardman to supply water only.

George has described the future well (he is only wrong about "why"







) "Within a week mite drop will fall to about 1/2 of what you've been seeing, roughly 40-50 mites per day, then slack off over time as brood rearing slows down. By late October, when brood rearing is finished for the season, your daily drop should fall to almost nothing."

>I am, however, very interested in saving this hive . . .
You have done that (for this year), so feed, feed, feed. Don't let them starve!

PS - You could just do counts once-a-week now.
But, daily IS NICE









[ September 20, 2006, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Dave W ]


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## George Fergusson

>I am, however, very interested in saving this hive if anyone knows how...........

Assuming the drop counts fall off as expected (or at least as I expect) then the only thing I could suggest would be a late-fall oxalic acid dribble treatment around early to mid-November when brood rearing should have pretty much ceased. Done properly (and it's not hard to do properly), that should knock down most of the remaining phoretic mites, putting your hive in good shape for spring. Then it's just a question of whether you have enough young healthy overwintering bees.

Feeding a little lite (1:1) syrup now might help spur some final brood rearing, or it might not. You didn't find any eggs in your last inspection so they may have aleady stopped.

Keep counting, if only to prove me wrong


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## Dave W

Please . . . Let's wait and see how many mites are dropping before we recommend additional treatments.

But, I like the idea of counting to prove George wrong!























Who knows, by counting and counting and counting, maybe longarm will learn something too!









[ September 20, 2006, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Dave W ]


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## longarm

you guys crack me up.
yes I am learning something as I go (and not only to count to 935). one thing, that as a newbee surprises me, is how strangely 'young' the science and art of beekeeping seems. 
this is only a hobby for me and i am still in my first year but it becomes more fascinating all the time.
thanks again for your encouragement and help.
Dan


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## Dave W

>I am learning something (and not only to count to 935) . . .
You have "counted" (and removed) 7,009 mites. I knew you could do better than 935









>surprises me how strangely 'young' the science and art of beekeeping seems . . .
So little is known and very little of whats known is understood.

>it becomes more fascinating all the time . . .
Yes it does! And I hope YOU remain fascinated for a long, long time.

>thanks again for your encouragement and help . . .
We (George, myself and many others) expect you to give us "encouragement and help" too. 


Are you "planning a count" for tomorrow?


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## longarm

of course!
but then I'll be out of town 'til monday so counting will resume then.
happy weekend!


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## longarm

and today's winning numbers are:
97 mites.

(hive 2: 2 mites)


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## longarm

getting caught up.. 
mite drop over a 4 day period averaged 128 mites per day. will have today's count in a couple of hours.


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## longarm

todays count: 115 mites.


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## George Fergusson

Geez Longarm, I'm surprised the numbers are still so high. When did you take the strips out? The 17th I think? That's 8+ days. I'd have expected the effects of the Apistan would have largely worn off by now.

It seems to me there are 2 possibilities to explain what we're seeing:

The first is that the Apistan has a longer residual effect on the mites than anticipated and the drop you're seeing is the result of the strips having been in the hive i.e., you're still killing mites.

The other is that the mites in your hive are largely resistant to Apistan and that the drop regular drop you've been seeing is natural drop resulting from the mite's normal breeding activity.

I don't suppose I need to say which of these scenarios I favor.

Given a daily drop of 115 mites and the presence of continued brood rearing going on in your hive, I'd hazard a guess and say you have between 3000 and 4000 breeding mites in your hive.


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## longarm

Hey George,
I am surprised as well.. thought the counts would taper down considerably... will continue counting to see what comes next..
Dan


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## George Fergusson

Dan, have you got your counts handy? Any chance you can post them so we don't have to go back through the 7 pages of posts and dig them out? A trend might jump out...


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## longarm

George - will do as soon as I have time to go through the posts myself.
Today's count: 107 mites.
(hive 2: 11 mites)


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## BjornBee

Can we start a contest for guessing the day this hive dies? Put me down for Feb 10th.


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## wade

I hope you can get to the bottom of this longarm. But this is just another example of what the bees keep showing me- they don't read the books! I'm glad I didn't bet anybody that the count would be close to zero by now because I was sure of it. I'm now leaning towards George's resistance to treatment notion although its hard to swallow, I really didn't wanna believe it. If it were me I'd leave them alone now and let them fend for themselves. They might surprise everybody. I know about an unwanted beetree that I'm gonna harvest when the time is right, it might be a good consolation for your efforts on this thread, if'n yours doesn't make it.


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## George Fergusson

Apistan resistance happens. Resistance is usually indicated when you have high levels of mites in a hive or hives after completion of a treatment. Apistan is a contact insecticide and the highest kill rate occurs within the first 24 hours of putting the stips in the hive. Used properly on non-resistant mites, it can remove virtually all the mites in a hive. Neglecting resistance, other reasons for poor results using Apistan are using old past-date strips and improper strip placement. Using fresh strips in the proscribed manner isn't that hard. If in doubt, there are published procedures for actually measuring chemical resistance. Basically, you expose a sample of bees to the chemical for a sufficient period of time (in the case of Apistan, 24 hours under the proper conditions) and then count the dead mites (initial kill). Next, you freeze the bees to kill them (and the mites) and then rigorously remove the remaining mites with an alcohol wash, and counting them (final kill). The formula is:

%Apistan kill = initial kill / (initial count + final count) X 100

Less than 50% and resistance is clearly indicated.

Seeing in excess of 100+ mites a day dropping during the majority of the treatment and continuing unabated for days after treatment ends to me at least clearly indicates resistance is at work. The introduction of mites into a hive through drifting is minimal and you'd be unlikly to be able to detect it over the normal "noise" present in drop counts. Immigration on the other hand typically apears as larger, isolated spikes in the mite counts which represent the introduction of a relatively large number of new mites. I have never felt that the drops that Longarm has been diligently reporting were due to mite immigration. 

It's good to remember that the vast majority of mites comprising natural drop result from actively breeding (emerging) mites. The phoretic phase of their lives is rather safe. Phoretic mites don't generally drop unless they're groomed off or otherwise removed via treatment manipulations. This is why drop counts fall off to a very small fraction of summertime drop come late fall and early winter when brood rearing slows and usually ceases completely, if only for a while. For the most part, the drop you see in winter is due to mites dying of old age. My rule of thumb is that the mite populations can be estimated by multiplying the drop count by 20-40 when there is brood rearing going on, and 200-500 when there is no (or little) brood rearing occurring.

>Can we start a contest for guessing the day this hive dies?

Bjorn, you're incorrigible, you insensitive brute! Er.. put me down for January 28...

George-


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## Dave W

Hey! Put me down for "the Fall of 2007".

George . . . Please explain how 100+ mites can be hatching from (now) less than 1000 cells of brood without causing "brood damage".

Here is "MY" summary:
71 - Pretreatment Natural Drop, 7/31/06
80 - 24hrs after Powdered Sugar Treatment, 8/1/06
41 - 3 days after sugar treatment, 8/2/06

8/4/06 - Installed Apistan
#1 (8/5) - 935 - First 24hr drop w/ Apistan
#2 (8/6) - 397 
#3 (8/7) - 257
#4 (8/8) - 250
#5 (8/9) - 136
#6 (8/10) - 270
#7 (8/11) - 168
#8 (8/12) - 266
#9 (8/13) - 265
Total mites first 9 days = 2944
Average for last 8 days = 251

#10 thru #20 (8/14 - 8/24) - "Estimated several thousand mites" - - longarm, 8/25/06 
(Estimate #10 thru #14 at 251 x 5 = 1255)
(Estimate #15 thru #20 at 115 x 6 = 690) 
(1255 + 690 = 1945)

#21 (8/25) - 112
#22 (8/26) - 127
#23 (8/27) - 94
#24 (8/28) - 156
#25 (8/29) - 86
#26 (8/30) - 112 (Last 6 day average = 115 - Estimated total = 3631 actual + 1945 estimated = 5576)
#27 (8/31) 
#28 (9/1) - 158
#29 (9/2) - 158
#30 (9/3) - 158
#31 (9/4) - 232
#32 (9/5)
#33 (9/6)
#34 (9/7)
#35 (9/8) - Started feeding w/ Boardman
#36 (9/9)
#37 (9/10)
#38 (9/11)
#39 (9/12)
#40 (9/13) - 192
#41 (9/14) - 116
#42 (9/15) - 131
#43 (9/16) - 171 Apistan removed from top brood chamber
#44 (9/17) - 117 Apistan removed from bottom chamber
TOTAL MITES REMOVED - 7,009 (Estimated)

9/18 - 114
9/19 - 98
9/20 - 76
9/21 - 97
9/22 - 128
9/23 - 128
9/24 - 128
9/24 - 128
9/25 - 128
9/26 - 115

ADDED THE FOLLOWING 10/23/06
9/27 - 107 (#2 - 11)
9/28 - 122 (#2 - 7)
9/29 - No Record-Estimated at 118 by DLW (Last 4-day average)
9/30 - No Record-Estimated at 118
10/1 - 129 (#2 - 2)
10/2 - 119 Average daily drop since Apistan removal = 115 (1725/15 days) (#2 - 9)
10/2 - Installed Apiguard
#1 (10/3) - 189 (#2 - 14 No Apiguard)
#2 (10/4) - 344 (#2 - 10)
#3 (10/5) - 576 (#2 - 14)
#4 (10/6) - 522 (Total w/ Apiguard = 1,631 + w/ Apistan = 7,009 + After Apistan = 1725 = 10,365) (#2 - 18)
#5 (10/7) - 569 (#2 - 21)
#6 (10/8) - 372 (#2 - 14)
#7 (10/9) - 335 (#2 - 17)
#8 (10/10) - 335 (11,976) (#2 - 17)
#9 (10/11) - 202 (3,444 in first 9 days w/ Apiguard - 2,944 w/ Apistan) (#2 - 26)
#10 (10/12) - 202 (#2 - 26)

[ October 23, 2006, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Dave W ]


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## Dave W

Looking for a trend?

Look at the drop 3 days AFTER sugar treatment (reduced almost 60%). Sure wish we knew how may mites were removed









1) If we ALL agree that the 115 mite drop that is now occuring is because of a remaining mite population and 

2) Apply any one of the following . . . 
 Sep through Oct: Daily mite fall X 100 = Total Mite Population. (This number is more of an approx because of large bee population shifts during spring and fall.)
 Total number of mites in a colony = 120 X average number of mites per day[http://www.biavl.dk/english/varroa-english/outline.htm - Accessed 5/9/05].
 One mite per day, natural fall, equates to 120 - 130 mites in colony [BC, 1/03, p43].
 One fallen mite during 24 hr period means there are 500 alive within colony [BC Nov 02, p33].
 To calculate total number of mites use: X=Y-5.75/0.0019 (X=Total, Y=24 h natural fall) [ABJ, 10/03, p799].

3) Is it possible . . .
That 11,500+ mites remain in hive? (115 x 100)

That on 7/31 there were 18,500+ mites in this hive? (11,500 + 7,000)

[ September 28, 2006, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Dave W ]


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## longarm

Dave, Thanks for compiling all the drop info.
Here's another count: 122 mites today.
As to whether there are 11,500 mites remaining in the colony... I'm willing to believe just about anything at this point.


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## George Fergusson

>Look at the drop 3 days AFTER sugar treatment (reduced almost 60%). Sure wish we knew how may mites were removed

Irrelevant. The mites that were removed were phoretic mites. The mites that dropped after treatment were for the most part newly emerging mites. The fact that the counts dropped off after the sugar treatment is largely coincidental. It would take a full brood cycle for any reduction in phoretic mites to show up in a reduced drop.

Of course, you need to agree that phoretic mites don't contribute substantially to natural daily drop..

>2) Apply any one of the following . . . 

I don't buy into those formulae Dave, so I can't really agree with the population estimates. Mite drop is not a linear function of mite population. I subscribe to the Stephen G. Martin school of mite population analysis which basically states that mite drop is entirely dependent on the amount of brood rearing occuring in the hive.

Somewhere I've got a link for Stephen Martin's paper on mite population modeling. I'll dig it up after dinner.

Look at your own numbers Dave. In November 2004 you were seeing 70+ mites a day or so. 2 months later in early January you were seeing 10-15 mites a day. Do you really think your mite population dropped that much in 2 months without any treatment?

So you can't estimate mite populations based on drop counts without considering the amount of brood rearing going on. You just can't. So any formula that uses a constant multiplier just won't cut it.

Thanks a lot btw for compiling Longarm's numbers!

George-


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## drobbins

you guy's continue to ignore the 800 lb gorilla
if I'm not mistaken the hive sitting next to this one doesn't have hardly any mites

Dave


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## wade

drobbins, How about if you please expand on the gorilla, I'm thick sometimes when it comes to reading between the lines. I can guess that its about maybe rearing a queen from the other hive? But not sure, and its too late for that if that's what your getting at.


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## drobbins

it's to late for this year but the mite infested hive is just sitting there putting huge varroa pressure on the one next to it and the good hive just takes a lickin and keeps on tickin

I'm making assumptions here
longarm, does the other hive continue to show low mite levels?

Dave

[edit] hopefully he's gonna raise bees from the good hive next year
do you want the drones from the mite infested hive flying around mating with the virgin queens from the good hive??

[ September 28, 2006, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## longarm

HI - yes the hive next to it continues with low mite counts (today's count in hive 2: 7 mites). It also appears 'normal' in terms of lots of honey in the top box, etc. Hoping it stays that way!!


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## drobbins

Longarm

hive #2 sounds like a "keeper"








that's where I'd focus my attention 

Dave


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## longarm

Was thinking along the same lines...
Actually, as I think Wade suggested, I will NOT pursue any futher treatment on hive 1 this year. If they make it through the winter (which apparently I am not the only one doubtful of) then I will do what I can in the spring to keep them healthy, otherwise .. I plan to make a split from hive 2 in the early spring and raise a new colony that way. 
Hive 2 was a swarm I trapped on the sidewalk only a block and a half or so from my house. The bees in hive 1 cost $80.... kinda funny.


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## longarm

Oh - and thanks again to all posters in this thread! I've learned a lot in the process of counting mites..
Tell you what - I'll post a date when this hive bellies up, for those with a gambling spirit.


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## George Fergusson

>As to whether there are 11,500 mites remaining in the colony... I'm willing to believe just about anything at this point.

I don't believe you have that many mites in the hive. My estimate, which I'm pulling out of my uh... out of thin air, is between 3500 and 5000 mites. Obviously, I don't know. How many bees in there? Pretty full? 40,000? If you have a 10% infestation level, that would be 4000 mites.

>it's to late for this year but the mite infested hive is just sitting there putting huge varroa pressure on the one next to it and the good hive just takes a lickin and keeps on tickin

Heh. Well, I just don't see it that way







I suppose I might as well take the opposite stand here since little comes from everyone agreeing with each other all the time, right?

First, I don't see the huge varroa pressure. Short of one hive actively robbing out the other or totally indiscriminate drifting taking place on a massive scale, where's the pressure coming from? There's no reason to believe that the "good hive" (for lack of a better name) is fighting off and controlling a massive influx of mites from the bad hive.

This is not to say that the good hive isn't managing it's mite load better. It might be. For this to be indicated, it would need to be shown that both hives started out more or less "even". I'm not sure that's the case. Did they come from the same source? Same kind of bees? Started at the same time? Have a similar summer? Did either hive swarm? Supercede? If I recall correctly, when this thread started back in mid-July, the good hive had no significant mite load. Now it's dropping anywhere from 7 up to 15 mites a day. That sounds like a good increase to me. Mites are breeding in the good hive too.

Longarm, the bad hive started life as a #3 pound package of Italians. Where'd this good one come from? Same source? I'm guessing it's a first-year hive and I'd also hazard a guess that these two hives came from different suppliers... one of whom has managed to raise Apistan-resistant mites maybe!

It's not unusual- it's normal in fact- for a first-year hive to end the season with a small, manageable, non-hazardous mite load. Longarm's bad hive is unusual.

I could be all wet. In any case, I'd start getting excited if the good hive is still "good" this time next year. Until then, I'd keep my fingers crossed.

George-


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## drobbins

hmmm,

you wet blanket you








I've seen you argue against the idea that varroa migrate from hive to hive in large numbers
robbing, drifting, whatever
I think that fails to recognize how rapidly they've spread around the world
how else do they spread?
longarms #2 hive was from a swarm he picked up
it had the advantage of the break in the brood cycle a swarm entails
but the mite infested hive was a package
it had the same advantage
you seem to be suggesting the package came with chemical resistant mites and the swarm did not
and there was no cross contamination between the two sitting next to each other
I'm sorry, I just can't buy it
the hives appear to have had fairly equal starts to me 
my point is that the mite infested hive doesn't appear to be one you want to spend much effort keeping around
I'm a beginer too, that's an awfull hard thing to say (I want all my bees to live)

Dave


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## George Fergusson

>Hive 2 was a swarm I trapped on the sidewalk only a block and a half or so from my house. The bees in hive 1 cost $80.... kinda funny.

Hilarious!

You supplied the answer to my question before I asked it- the two hives came from totally different sources, so comparing them after a single season isn't possible.

>I'll post a date when this hive bellies up, for those with a gambling spirit.

Oh heck Longarm, it's not certain it will die, only very likely. If it does, I'll be very sorry for your loss. In any case, you're learning a good deal going through this, and providing a good learning opportunity for everyone.

It could survive. Stranger things have happened. Afterall, it's got a heck of a mite load now and you haven't seen the normal symptoms of PMS one would expect. Don't get your hopes up too far, but maybe you'll beat the odds with this on


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## George Fergusson

>you wet blanket you 

Feh. Sorry









>I think that fails to recognize how rapidly they've spread around the world
how else do they spread?

Well let me set the record straight! While I do tend to minimize the effects of drifting as a means of moving varroa from one hive to another, I don't discount it completely. However, as a means of putting varroa pressure on nearby hives, I don't believe it does. Clearly, drifting is the primary means by which varroa have spread but I don't believe massive hive-killing numbers of mites move from hive to hive via drifting, nor do I believe that is even necessary for them to have spread either so far, or so fast. What has hastened the spread of varroa is their ability to propogate so **** fast.. It only takes 1 mite. One mite doens't put the pressure on, but from that one mite, a hive-killing population can develop in 2 to 3 years and that puts the pressure on. We see this all the time with new packages that arrive with very low mite populations- they're fine for the first year or two.

Another reason I believe drifting doesn't move a lot of mites is because during their 3-13 day phoretic phase, mites favor nurse bees as hosts, and nurse bees don't drift. Foragers drift, and drones drift indescriminatly and yes, it's inevitable that some mites will end up on drones and foragers and end up being transferred to nearby hives.

So the transfer of mites due to drifting in and of itself is not going to cause an otherwise healthy, mite-free hive to crash overnight.

The robbing of crashing hives and deadouts on the other hand can and does result in the transfer of large, possibly even hive-killing numbers of mites and therefore can result in putting the "pressure" on. However, from the evidence we have no reason to believe that either of longarm's hives has been robbing out any crashing hives this summer. In fact, that his #2 hive has such a low mite load is a clear indication that it hasn't been collecting a lot of mites from this source.

>the hives appear to have had fairly equal starts to me 

Well, similar but as usual, there are several ways to look at this! At any given time when there is brood rearing going on, 60-80 percent of the mites in a hive are in cells reproducing and most of the remaining phoretic mites are on the nurse bees. When a hive swarms, it leaves behind most of the nurse bees and the majority of the mites. Packages on the other hand are made up from bees of all ages, including a lot of nurse bees with their attendant mites that in this case appear to have been Apistan-resistant. For side-by-side comparison, I don't think you can consider these two hives equal unless you can show they had similar mite loads to start and while possible, I think this is doubtful.

George-


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## BjornBee

George,
On a nice day that allows the bees to forage on a good amount, sugar treat one hive. Not just a few frames but the whole hive. Wait about 10 minutes, and then open up a second hive next to that one, being one hive that you did not coat with powdered sugar. You may be very surprised how many sugar coated bees are in the next hive over. Wait and look again 30 minutes after. You will be surprised.

I discounted this when I first noticed it as bees just being confused from being coated with sugar. But close observation and reasoning suggests that drifting and bees entering the wrong hive just based on the sugar would not fully answer this amount in numbers.

I think the bees adapting over millions of years know how to navigate rather well. In the wild, the bees are somewhat seperated by natural habitat locations. What we have done is taken many hives and lined them up next to each other. This goes against what they naturally do. Yes, Bees are good at pinpointing to a few inches where this entrance should be, but if only 1% get confused, and were talking 10,000 foragers, and the scenario is repeated many times over the course of a day, than the drifting potential is very large by bee counts.

Natural drift, drone congregating to swarm hives, drones being kicked out and going to the next more receptive hive, and other factors, all contribute to much more drift than I think we realize.

I look at many hives over the summer. And the scenario for almost all bee yards is the same. Hives seperated by inches or something less than a foot, all lined up, with all boxes painted the same color. And then some beekeeper saying that he does not not think bees drift much. Go figure......


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## db_land

george, do you have a study reference for "during their 3-13 day phoretic phase, mites favor nurse bees as hosts". Thanx

longarm: IF you havn't seen PMS yet, then hive 1 has a good chance of survival. I would wait for a natural break in the brood cycle and treat with OA vapor or dribbling. The key factor will be the condition of hive 1's October brood (the overwintering bees). If these are strong and have no PMS, this hive is a winner regardless of mite load.

On the other hand, there are a couple of more drastic measures you can take if you believe the hive is doomed. Here is one which may or may not work, but it requires a spirit of adventure:
1) Flip the brood chamber(s) upside down! 1st put a strip of wood or something across the tops of the frames to keep them from falling out.
2) Keep them this way for 8 days and then treat with OA dribbling to eliminate phoretic mites. Keep flipped for another 3 days until the OA effect has worn off.
3) Flip back upright, remove frame holding strips. Monitor mite drop during the whole time.
The idea of flipping the brood chamber came from someone in Germany as a mite control method. I think the theory is: a) mites in cells will drown in brood food and/or fail to feed and mate properly; b) phoretic mites will fail to enter brood chambers due to orientation confusion; c) the queen will stop laying while the workers rebuild some cells sloping the right way - this provides a break in the brood cycle for an effective OA treatment.
Should be a fun experiment and you would probably be the 1st in the USA to try it!


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## longarm

db_land, please remind me.. what is PMS?
also, would a treatment of Apiguard at this time be useful?


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## db_land

PMS==Parasitic Mite Syndrome. Usually you'll see bees with deformed wings (deformed wing virus ==DWV). Or you might see weak, sometimes shrunken, young bees. Often the healthy house bees will drag these out of the hive or you'll see them wondering around (and falling off) the landing board.
I would not mess with Apiguard. The ambient temp has to be over 60 for it to work at all. If you decide to go the chemical route, then maybe formic acid would be more effective (for saving the hive) in the short term.


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## Dave W

Hey guys, is breaking the brood cycle a good idea this time of year, I dont think so.

As we read the above words about drifting, I am reminded of my similar hive. I had only ONE hive; no one had hives within a 1 mile radius, maybe 2 or 3 miles. How far do bees drift?

If longarm would do a "sugar or ether roll", we could get an idea of any existing mite load. The jar might be cover w/ mites, if any exist.

Based on the roll test, I might suggest further treatment after brood rearing stops.

The thoughts about a good hive and a bad hive side-by-side, suggest to me that "some hives just dont have mite problems".









That said, what do you do when you encounter a bad hive? How or when do you know its bad? Has anyone ever "turned around" a bad hive? How?

Just to say, "My hive has lots of mites", and then do nothing the reverse the situation, some how doesnt fit my description (and hopes) of a "true beekeeper". However, at times its tempting just to quit, its an easy answer









I find it very interesting that no "experienced", "I have more hives than you", "I know it all because I have a degree", types havent chimed in w/ any words of wisdom.

I guess there is a lot thats unknown and/or pooly understood. Where is a good mentor when you really need one?


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## BjornBee

My comments about drifting are for realizing (for George, you know he needs some help) how much drift actually goes on. How they impact hives or a single event probably can be much debated. I just want people to realize drifting does occurr and that having hives lined up next to each other causes much of it.

I also have seen many beekeeeprs treat with apistan and checkmite incorrectly. Last week alone I inspected a beekeeper who used 1 strip of checkmite per hive. I asked him about this and his reply was something along the lines of "that stuffs expensive".

I would venture to say that most people do not use enough strips in the hives for adequate treatment. The instructions say "1 strip for each 5 frames of bees or less in each brood chamber", it also states that the strips "must be in contact with the brood nest bees at all times"

It states the amount, and how important for contact with the bees for the product to be effective.

I see people on a regualr basis have 2 strips per hive. This seems as the going treatment amount. But of course most of these beekeepers have 2 deeps or more full of bees. If you follow the instructions, many of these hives should have 4 or more strips being used per hive.

This not only gives you partial mite kill, but adds significantly to resistance.

This thread sounds like a certain mite kill was effective but not nearly strong enough to keep the numbers from maintaining a certain level.

If you look at the multiplying of mites during the August and September timeframe, and then only knock down something like 50%, the numbers can easily be maintained with huge mite counts along the way.

Was the apistan old or bad somehow?

Was enough used as per the instructions?

Were the mites resistant?

Drifting is always a concern. But the story does not reflect that as the main source.

I will bet money that if the three above questions are answered, and they can be, the answers will expose the truth and circumstances.


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## longarm

Bjorn,
I used the Apistan EXACTLY as directed on the package (read elsewhere in this now lengthy thread) - 2 per brood box (4 total), each placed 2 frames in from the edges in direct contact with the brood nest, placed in opposite corners from each other, reverse corners in the other box, and REVERSED this arrangement after 10 days or so in both boxes (as per a recommendation I received on this site). The Apistan was purchased new from a busy local dealer Glorybee.. I do not have the empty box any longer to check dates but as the company sells volume I would find it very difficult to believe it was old stock they were selling.

If the mites were resistant and drift was considerable... then why didn't the numbers of mites increase in the next adjacent hive which was also being treated with Apistan from the same box?

Also is there compelling reason NOT to treat with Apiguard now? I will have 4 weeks of 60+ degree days.


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## BjornBee

Personally I think this is a sick "April fools" joke gone terrible wrong.....  

I do not think that the apistan was effective to the point of a good kill. I also do not think that drift is the main source, which I have stated. I do believe that this hive totally sucks at mite resistance and hygienic qualities. 

Apistan is not 100 percent. Many things can cause a less effective kill. Apistan also is effective for a time and lessens over time. I had not read the amount of strips you used, but stand by my comments that the "dose" used was ineffective. I have seen strips that seemed ineffective due to mere strip placement between comb that was to tight for many bees to come into contact with the strips. I have seen bees build comb around and propolize strips. Makes you wonder the effectiveness when this happens.

With all things considered, it does make you realize that all bees are not created equal. Your apiary is really no stronger than the weakest colony. I would consider getting rid of the genetics for this particualr hive.

If you want to use apiguard, I see no reason for not using it.


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## wade

Bjornbee,
I don't know. Everybody wants to beat up on or "fix" a colony of bees, solely on the presence of a high mite drop. It seems like performance should factor in there somewhere. Longarm wouldn't have any reason to believe there were a problem without doing the mite count. So is there a problem? I dunno probably, but I do know that hive #1 doesn't read, can't go online to check out our comments, and if they could, wouldn't give a rip what anybody wrote anyways. Maybe they're tough and can handle mites. Destroy that line and nobody will ever know.


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## BjornBee

wade,
I do not favor fixing a colony. I do favor having strong genetics. This hive can have a severe impact on other hives by having un-natural high levels of mites by beekeepers doing everything in thier power to baby through and help a colony. This hive also can pass on poor genetics by having drones mate with other colonies.

I do favor that if you are not going to do anything in treating, than let nature run its course. If they make it fine. But to baby a colony and help it survive, to do nothing more than be a potential problem next year, and even drag your other hives lower, without considering requeening or changing genetics, than I ask why? We have the ability to do better than hives with mite counts in the hundreds. I favor eliminating bad genetic stock, and perpetuating good stock.

It can't be any clearer for longarm. One hive handles mites and the other is badly infested. I know what I would do. But thats not to say that giving good advice based on anothers preference is wrong. If longarm treats, than good luck. It may help, it may not. The hive may survive winter, it may not. I personally do not treat and would not tolerate poor or weak gentics in my yards. If I don't do something to correct it, mother nature does.


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## George Fergusson

>george, do you have a study reference for "during their 3-13 day phoretic phase, mites favor nurse bees as hosts". Thanx

I didn't remember right off where I heard that, but a quick google of "varroa host preference" turned up a number of studies on the subject. Here's one:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k30814txn4306533/

The abstract summarizes thusly:

"We suggest that V. destructor may detect relative concentrations of these compounds in order to discriminate between adult bee hosts, and preferentially parasitize nurse bees over older workers in honey bee colonies."

Directions for obtaining samples of bees for ether rolls and sugar shakes all state you should collect them from brood combs, not honey supers.

>My comments about drifting are for realizing (for George, you know he needs some help) how much drift actually goes on.

Oh you know it Bjorn, I need all the help I can get









I was just reading in the New Zealand "Control of Varroa" manual about the impact of drift on the spread of varroa and it states that the impact it can have on a mite population over time can be "significant". They're talking immigration rates on the order of 1 to 2 mites per day.

Some more poking around turned up this APIS newsletter that suggests varroa really is a "community" problem:

http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis93/APMAR93.HTM

And this study of the impact of drifting on varroa immigration rates done in Italy:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n3630364gq387t78/

I may have to revise my opinion... er.. change my tune... um... maybe even admit I was wrong


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## longarm

interesting links George, thanks.


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## Fusion_power

Interesting thoughts George, but I think you may have a problem in another area too. Nurse bees tend to split about half and half with a swarm. As in half go with the swarm, and half stay at the parent colony. This kind of throws your rationale that most of the varroa stay with the parent colony into a tailspin. 

You could however reason that reproductive swarming occurs only when the brood nest is fully developed and therefore most of the mites are sealed in cells when the swarm issues. From this logic, its apparent that phoretic mites that go with the swarm would represent about 10% of the total mite load in the parent colony. This gives a decided advantage to the swarm over the parent colony.

A package of bees is roughly as likely to have mites as a swarm. Again, the logic is simple. Package bees are shaken from strong colonies with large brood nests. Most of the mites will be sealed in cells. Commercial producers will have treated their bees for mites so the probable mite load in the package should be significantly lower than in a swarm. 

The only caveat you can make is that the package would be more likely to carry apistan tolerant mites. Unfortunately, this fact does not at all explain why one colony is heavily infested vs another colony sitting right beside it. The only viable explanation in this case is that there is a major genetic difference. 

I don't think you have a leg left to stand on. Crow is being served at the third table to the left. Its best eaten fresh.

Fusion


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## George Fergusson

>From this logic, its apparent that phoretic mites that go with the swarm would represent about 10% of the total mite load in the parent colony. This gives a decided advantage to the swarm over the parent colony.

Correct.

>This kind of throws your rationale that most of the varroa stay with the parent colony into a tailspin.

Is not 90% of the mites "most of the mites"? I think it is.

>Commercial producers will have treated their bees for mites so the probable mite load in the package should be significantly lower than in a swarm. 

Correct, unless..

>the package would be more likely to carry apistan tolerant mites.

Which is exactly what I think happened.

>Unfortunately, this fact does not at all explain why one colony is heavily infested vs another colony sitting right beside it.

Sure it does, or at last it can. For one thing, we don't know exactly how these 2 hives sit in relation to each other, I don't believe longarm has ever said one hive is "sitting right beside" the other. There's a matter he can clear up for us.

We can also speculate all day long on how similar these 2 hives were back in the spring but we really don't know. They could have had comparable mite loads, all things being equal, but it's not very likely given the sources of the 2 swarms, one shook from hives (apparently) containing Apistan resistant mites and the other a reproductive swarm from who knows where. Equal? Maybe. Not a given. Not even likley.

Lastly, drifting is a two-way street. Assuming longarm's hives were arranged in a manner that promoted drift in the first place, I'd expect mites to be moving in both directions, but who says drift occurs equally in all directions? It's been shown that it does not. Maybe the workers in the good hive are more prone to drift, maybe that's why the bad hive has so many mites. We just don't know!

It could be argued that the hive with the most mites would lose more to the hive with less mites i.e., that mite transfer would be proportional to their respective mite loads, but again, this assumes equal drift in both directions, a big IF but say it was; over time, this mite transfer could cause them to eventually end up with roughly equal mite loads. Is that what's been happening? We don't know!

> The only viable explanation in this case is that there is a major genetic difference.

I'm generally suspect of any explanation that claims to be the only viable one







It always makes me wonder what the real explanation might be









In my own defense I did say "This is not to say that the good hive isn't managing it's mite load better" and I never said these two hives were genetically similar. They're most likely not, having come from two totally different sources. Is the #2 hive's minimal mite load indicative of better genetics? Maybe. Time will tell. There are too many unknowns and too many convenient assumptions being made to prop up the conclusion that hive #2 is genetically superior when it might just be a matter of luck.

It might just turn out that longarm's bad hive actually has some genetic characteristics that help it manage a massive mite load without crashing. Why hasn't it crashed yet? Why isn't it showing classic signs of PMS? His "bad" hive might be genetically superior in it's own right- able to withstand crushing mite loads without buckling under the pressure. We just don't know









>I don't think you have a leg left to stand on. Crow is being served at the third table to the left. Its best eaten fresh.

And yet, here I stand! I admit to being a bit off in my understanding of how drift under the right circumstances can affect mite transfer and all of a sudden, people are trying to feed me! I appreciate it, really, but crow isn't my favorite food- it tastes a lot like Bald Eagle









So show me these hives a year from now and I'll tell you which one is genetically superior. Genetically superior hives must stand the test of time, it's not a judgement I'm willing to pass based on a single summer. And keep that crow warming on the back burner- someone will eat it


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## longarm

24 hour mite count in hive 1: 129
24 hour count in hive 2: 10

Hive 1 is 18 feet away from hive 2.


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## drobbins

if hive 1 makes it thru the winter I'd implement a SERIOUS drone brood culling program next spring
I wouldn't want them mating with any queens that come from hive 2









Dave


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## wade

<24 hour mite count in hive 1: 129>


The light bulb just went on, I've figured it out! Longarm, what you need is a surveillance camera on that hive. What you'll find is that some wiseguy is sneaking around with a jar full of mites, sprinkling them onto the sticky board.


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## longarm

at this point.. i wouldn't doubt it!


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## db_land

Hey longarm, are you seeing PMS in hive #1 yet? How about looking at some of the fallen mites with a microscope to see if they are damaged in any way.


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## longarm

To see if the MITES are damaged in any way? I don't follow...


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## George Fergusson

>if hive 1 makes it thru the winter I'd implement a SERIOUS drone brood culling program next spring

If hive 1 makes it thru the winter, it'll be a freakin miracle


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

>if the MITES are damaged . . .
Sometimes, as bees remove phoretic mites from themselves and/or other bees, some of the mites may be "damaged"; missing legs, chunks missing from the bodies, etc.

I dont think "hygienic behavior" is causing your mite drop to increase at this time. If your bees are "removing" lots of mites now, why were there so many mites (7,000) killed w/ Apistan?

I think (cant prove YET) what you are seeing now is the "annual die-off" of "summer" mites. Female mites produced in summer live 2 to 3 months and in the fall 5 to 8 months [http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/pest&Disease/pppdIndex.html - Accessed 7/10/06]. Now, at this time of year (sometimes Aug, usually Sep and Oct) EVERY hive produces an increased mite drop. Mite reproduction now is almost non-existent. The "rush" was in late spring/early summer when 80% of the mite population was breeding in bee cells. Now, w/ very few brood cells available, the "rush" is over and all (99%?) of the mites in the hive are now phoretic. These summer produced mites are now dying off and a few will remain (on the winter bees) to cause even MORE GREIF next year.

Have you started any additional treatment?

If or when you do, please keep track of the mites







. I sure want to know how many are removed and thus how many the Apistan didn't get.

Here is something to ponder . . .
It is said that "You can never kill all the mites". Does that mean this hive's count will never again be "ZERO"?


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## db_land

Dave: I don't agree that brood rearing is over - even in oregon bees must be raising winter cluster bees during October. The big mite population explosion usually happens in August/Sept - also the time when PMS usually shows up. The mite die off happens in Nov/Dec. So I think you're about 30 days off target. The genetics and consequently the behavior of a hive changes throughout the year - the queen's mating with 17 drones might have something to do with it. Anyway, hives can go through periods when they are more or less hygienic. 

longarm: Are you seeing PMS? How about opening a few cells to see what you find? Other than mite drop, what "crashing hive" symptoms are you seeing? Is the population dwindling or increasing?


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## Dave W

db_land . . .

>I don't agree that brood rearing is over . . .
Thats good! I dont think longarms hive has stop raising bees, but I DO think the mites have stopped breeding (maybe 1 or 2 are still at it







)

A dramatic increase in mites FALLING usually happens in Aug/Sep. Thats NOT from breeding. It caused by the thousands of mites that were breeding have no place to go and are now old and dying.

>The mite die off happens in Nov/Dec . . .
In Nov/Dec my mite fall has DECREASED almost to its "winter low".

You are a bit south of Indiana, is it different in NC?

>longarm: Are you seeing PMS? How about opening a few cells to see what you find? Other than mite drop, what "crashing hive" symptoms are you seeing? Is the population dwindling or increasing?
His last report was NO symptoms and an increasing bee population.


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## longarm

Dave is correct re: what I am seeing (and not seeing) from hive1 - No PMS.
Hive 1 count today: 119 mites.
HIve 2: 9 mites.

[ October 02, 2006, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: longarm ]


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## Dave W

I have been thinking . . . that usually get me into trouble









Aug 2 - I projected mite population to be 10,000. This was based on longarm's pre-treatment natural drop on 7/31/06 of 71 multiplied by 142, a factor determined by my hive counts of Jul/Aug, 2004. (71 x 142 = 10,082). My "factor" is "similar" to:
 Total number of mites in a colony = 120 X average number of mites per day [http://www.biavl.dk/english/varroa-english/outline.htm - Accessed 5/9/05].
 One mite per day, natural fall, equates to 120 - 130 mites in colony [BC, 1/03, p43].
 One fallen mite during 24 hr period means there are 500 alive within colony [BC Nov 02, p33].
 To calculate total number of mites use: X=Y-5.75/0.0019 (X=Total, Y=24 h natural fall) [ABJ, 10/03, p799].

Sep 17 - Apistan removed. Total DEAD mites = 7,009. Mites REMAINING?? = 3,073 (10,082 - 7,009).
Total mites removed to date since removing Apistan = 1,606 (Counts 9/18 thru 10/1). 
Mites now (10/1) remaining = 1,467.

How many mites will longarm count from now through . . . say, March 31st, 2007?


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## longarm

NEW TREATMENT APPLICATION BEGINS TODAY

Starting Apiguard today on hive 1. I believe I will have 4 weeks of minimum 60 degree days and so wanted to destroy mites! A very generous friend gave me the 2 trays of Apiguard necessary for this treatment (thank you Erin!).
Beginning tomorrow about this time we'll see what kind of mite drop hive 1 will have..


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## George Fergusson

>Hive 1 is 18 feet away from hive 2.

Thanks Longarm. I can't believe there was much drifting going on with them being that far apart, and I can't believe there was a statistically significant number of mites transfered to either hive as a result of drift.

Without significant drift occurring, there couldn't have been a lot of mite pressure placed on either hive from the other.

So where's that leave us? There is still no real proof that hive #2 is genetically superior to hive #1 and there is at least some evidence that longarm's bad hive, the one with all the mites, may have some genetic characteristics that are helping it deal with the infestation without succumbing to PMS. 

Go figure. Things are not always as they appear!

>I think (can’t prove YET) what you are seeing now is the "annual die-off" of "summer" mites

Never heard of an "annual die-off" of varroa mites, though that doesn't mean there isn't one, and I was not aware that summer mites and winter mites were physiologically different and lived for longer or shorter times as a result of these differences. Anyone have any documentation of this claim?

My understanding (from memory) has been that mites breed roughly 3-4 times, then die. In the summer time when there is ample opportunity for mites to breed, they live 60-90 days and in the fall and winter when there is less opportunity to breed, they can live much longer but apparently do still die of old age at rate of around 10% per month i.e., during the winter, a completely phoretic mite population consisting of 1000 mites would generate an average daily drop of around 3 mites per day.

>Thats good! I dont think longarms hive has stop raising bees, but I DO think the mites have stopped breeding (maybe 1 or 2 are still at it )

Why do you think that?

>A dramatic increase in mites FALLING usually happens in Aug/Sep. Thats NOT from breeding.

What else could it be from? At a certain point, mite populations go ballistic as their numbers start to increase exponentially. If mites stopped breeding in late summer and started dying off in massive numbers, they wouldn't be much of a problem!

Mites drop because they're breeding and the more they're breeding, the more they drop. If they're not breeding, they're not dropping at anything like the same rate.

The dramatic increases you see in late summer coincides with the bee population peaking and the bees stopping raising drones, leaving the mites with only worker brood to infest. As brood rearing starts to drop off, multiple foundress mites enter worker cells to breed. This results in significant damage to the brood and an increase in mites dying in the cells along with the bees.


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## Bob Russell

To All
George Writes
>A dramatic increase in mites FALLING usually happens in Aug/Sep. Thats NOT from breeding.
What else could it be from?

Removed my post,out of context.

[ October 04, 2006, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Bob Russell ]


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## Dave W

>Never heard of an "annual die-off" of varroa mites . . .
Yes you have







, it occurs in Aug/Sep. You have seen it, but maybe didnt recognize it as such.

>I was not aware that summer mites and winter mites were physiologically different and lived for longer or shorter times . . .
Here is a famous quote, "In the summer time when there is ample opportunity for mites to breed, they live 60-90 days and in the fall and winter when there is less opportunity to breed, they can live much longer."

>Why do you think that? . . .
How much brood is available? I say, very little. And the cells that may be available are not very heavily infested or we would be seeing damaged bees, i.e. deformed wings.

>>A dramatic increase in mites FALLING usually happens in Aug/Sep. Thats NOT from breeding.
>What else could it be from?
Please see comments about "annual die-off"









>At a certain point, mite populations go ballistic as their numbers start to increase exponentially . . .
That happens in late spring/early summer. Some, who count our mites







, see it clearly.

>If mites stopped breeding in late summer . . .
I didnt say that! But "start dying off in massive numbers" is correct and "they wouldn't be much of a problem" is kinda true







. This massive die-off, in of its self, doesnt cause problems







, the problems usually have already occurred.

>leaving the mites with only worker brood to infest . . .
Do ALL the mites go into cells? Do the "extra" mites die?

>As brood rearing starts to drop off, multiple foundress mites enter worker cells to breed . . .
This hasnt happen or we would be seeing deformed bees.

Here is another great quote:
>Things are not always as they appear!


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## longarm

first mite count of Apiguard treatment: 189 mites.
(hive 2 which is NOT being treated: 14)


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

On September 20, 2006 at 04:33 PM, I posted: 
>Do you realize your hive currently has only 40.25 lbs (20.25 top + 20.0 bottom) of honey for winter?

Is your hive still "light"?


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## longarm

Very. Or at least I think so.. haven't torn into it since then. But nothing much is blooming around here. 
Can you feed (via top feeder) while treating with Apiguard??


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## db_land

longarm: My guess is that in Oregon the bees are still going strong raising brood. Is this correct? What color are most of the mites you're counting? Dark brown would be relatively old mites, tan/light brown are younger mites. I would still like to know if many of the fallen mites are damaged (as in bitten by a bee) in any way. The reason I keep asking about PMS is that it could suddenly show up any day. If the hive population is truly increasing with healthy bees, no problemo - they'll survive to become a great hive next spring. I guess it gives you peace of mind; otherwise why waste apiguard killing old mites (if Dave is right) or mites that the bees are handling anyway.


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## longarm

db_land: majority of the mites are typically dark brown. BUT... in the last week or so I have noticed a growing percentage (maybe 20%) of the mites are light to very light (as in translucent).
still no signs of PMS as of this afternoon, that I can find.
last I looked there was not a lot of brood - or honey - in the hive. I should look again .. maybe sometime this week.


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## George Fergusson

>I have noticed a growing percentage (maybe 20%) of the mites are light to very light (as in translucent).

Those are immature mites that failed to mature and mate before the bee they were living with emerged.

They're breeding. I don't know why anyone would think they're not, as long as there is brood in the hive. Varroa mite's lives are intimately tied to those of the bees.

Mite populations, if left unchecked, peak in late summer and early fall as this classic graphic shows:

http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/bee_and_varroa_population_graph.gif 

>>leaving the mites with only worker brood to infest . . .
>Do ALL the mites go into cells? Do the "extra" mites die?

Mites die when they have exceeded their practicle reproductive lifespan or they die when they've been groomed off and damaged and fall to the bottom board or are dug out of developing brood by hygenic bees. They die of old age. They die for a lot of reasons, but they don't die in any massive mite die-off simply because the time has come.

There are no "Occupancy: One Mite" signs on brood cells. When they're ready to breed, they pile into the available cells even if they've already got mites in them. When multiple foundress mites enter worker brood, the resulting bees rarely emerge unscathed, if they emerge at all. This situation usually occurs in late summer when the bees stop raising drones, the mite's favorite cells.

Typically this is when PMS shows up, but PMS is a syndrome, not a disease and it is characterized by a variety of symptoms, some or all of which may be present. It's more than just bees with deformed wings. I've seen DWV in a hive without an appreciable mite load; The Deformed Wing Virus does not manifest because there are multiple mites in the cells, it appears because the mites have transmitted it to developing bees that are susceptible to it because they've been poorly nourished by a weakened and diminished nurse bee workforce. This is when you start to see bees dying upon emergence with their tongues sticking out- another symptom of PMS but it's not a disease, they starved because they didn't get the attention they needed at a crucial time of their development.

You'll also see bees with shrunken abdomens, another symptom of PMS that is in fact much more common than DWV. This is most likely due to their being fed on by mites while in the late larval and early pupal stage of their development as well as being poorly fed earlier on.

PMS can also show up in the form of more traditional brood diseases either in appearance, or in fact- again no doubt because the bees immune systems have been compromised by mite predation and a break down in hygenic behavior which as above, typically results from a weakened and diminished nurse bee work force.

Finally, there's another aspect of PMS that I'm certain exists because I've seen it but which hasn't been clearly described by anyone I'm aware of: Depression. Depressed, morose bees. Demoralized bees. Tired, rundown, unhappy bees. Hives suffering from PMS-caused depression just don't perform well.

[ October 04, 2006, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: George Fergusson ]


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

When counting your mites, look for and count separately, pure WHITE mites. There may only be 4 or 5, or less, in a 100. WHITE mites are a sure sign of mite reproduction. Light brown and even tan colored mites MAY not be good indicators. What you decribe as "tan", I might call "light brown"


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## longarm

hmm.. can't say I have ever notice a "white" mite but will look today when I do my count. The closest thing I have seen to that are nearly clear mites, or mite sheddings? I see a fair number of them.. never white.
Geroge - I will keep a close look out for any of the above symptoms you mentioned. So far I have seen none of them and have been looking closely every day.


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## longarm

today's count: 344 mites!!
(hive 2: 10)

Dave - saw no white mites.around 15 of the mites I counted were more or less clear.


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## Dave W

My sticky board is painted white, they are hard to see directly on the board. But, most of my counts are made using clear contact paper as the "sticky" surface. Before removing the contact paper, I place a sheet of 8-1/2 x 11 copy paper on top of half of the debris and then fold over the other half of the contact paper to "sandwich" the paper between. The paper is a very, very light gray. They appear white on a gray background. Maybe your "clear" mites are actually white










I dont find many "white" mites, and some of the ones I do find look like "Pac Man". They have broken open (some in puddles of liquid), leaving a "V" shaped "mouth".









Your daily average drop has been about 115 since you removed the Apistan, glad to see the 344, maybe your killing mites?


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## Maine_Beekeeper

Longarm - 
WOO HOO!!!!
How were your temps today? What's the forecast?
I'm Psyched! go get 'em!


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## longarm

Hey Maine_beekeeper!
Yeah I am very happy to see so many dead mites!
High today was 66, forecast is for warming trend over the next week or so.
Killing mites feels great!


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## longarm

check out this 24 hour mite kill: 576!!
(hive 2: 14)


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## George Fergusson

>576!!

Sweet.


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## BjornBee

I said feb 10th on the contest. Is it too late to change the date, much sooner...


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## Maine_Beekeeper

Congratulations on the mite killing. 
I'm now totally sold on the Apiguard!
Thank you for continuing to count (544 is a lot of mite counting and I know that's a total bummer...)
This hive may crash but it aint going to be from lack of trying. 
Me, I'm betting they make it through.
Feed 'em. big time. 
I might even throw in some pollen substitute now. 
I hope your weather holds for another month - 5 weeks. Will it over there maybe?
Good beekeeping! and thanks for sharing. we're all learning from your experiences.


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## Dave W

Hmmmmm . . . .

7000 mites removed w/ Apistan . . .
About 1700 after Apistan . . .
Now, another 1100 . . .

WOW! Thats almost 10,000 mites REMOVED.
How many more can there be?


BjornBee . . .
Are you thinking this hive will starve, abscound, or just DIE?


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## George Fergusson

>WOW! Thats almost 10,000 mites REMOVED.
>How many more can there be?

Still think they're not breeding?

Stephen J. Martin's paper of varroa population dynamics suggests an intrinsic daily increase rate of 0.021 per day for a healthy mite population in a hive with normal brood rearing going on. That rate could turn 5,000 mites into 10,000 in about a month. Over 2 months that original 5000 mites could become 18,000 mites. So he's killed 10,000 mites or so and you want to know how many more there can be?

Good question. This has been going on over 2 months now. We don't really know how many mites he started with, we don't know how effective the Apistan treatment was (but it appears not to have been very effective) so it's anybody's guess. Mine is he's got now about what he started with two and a half months ago, somewhere between 2000 and 2500 mites.


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## sierrabees

Starting Apistan Oct 2 the treatment should be complete by mid to late Nov. At that point the queen should be producing little or no brood, therefore almost all mites remaining should be vulnerable. At that point I would switch to Wintergreen Oil. If the problem hive has enough healthy bees to winter well, this approach should bring them into Spring with a fresh start.

The links below give a good introduction to how to use wintergreen oil. It is pretty old research and doesn't get a lot of attention today but the work seems solid.

http://www.rnoel.50megs.com/frm2.html 

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/varroa2.htm


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## Dave W

>Still think they're not breeding . . .
>So he's killed 10,000 mites or so and you want to know how many more there can be . . .
>somewhere between 2000 and 2500 mites.

So, 10,000 + 2,500 = about 12,500.
On Aug 2, I projected a population of 10,000.
Maybe I was wrong









>he's got now about what he started with two and a half months ago . . .
Where (date?) can I find "your" prediction?


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## George Fergusson

>>he's got now about what he started with two and a half months ago . . .
Where (date?) can I find "your" prediction?

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006737;p=2#000045 

>On Aug 2, I projected a population of 10,000.

The difference between our perspectives Dave is that you think he had 10,000 mites in his hive to start with 2 months ago that and he's been killing them ever since, and I think he had about 2000 or so in his hive 2 months ago and that they've been breeding ever since.

George-

[ October 07, 2006, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: George Fergusson ]


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## longarm

Today's count: 522 mites! Unbelievable..

Hive 2 had 18 mites.. the highest number I have counted in that hive since removal of Apistan on 9.16.06.

One observation: I have noticed that with Apistan a great number of the mites on the sticky board were alive and scrambling around. With Apiguard I have seen only one mite moving.. all others appear stone dead. I wonder then if with Apistan mites are more likely to reinfect the hive after dropping?

[ October 06, 2006, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: longarm ]


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## George Fergusson

>I wonder then if with Apistan mites are more likely to reinfect the hive after dropping?

Apistan should kill them before they hit the bottom board. If they were crawling around after dropping, it wasn't the Apistan that knocked them down.. which is what I've been saying- that the 100+ mites you were seeing drop every day was the result of natural fall due to normal breeding activities.

I expect your use of Apistan was by the book and should have been effective. However, I'm pretty certain that the majority of your mites are effectively resistant to Apistan. When you first put the strips in, you immediately saw some really good drops which only means to me that most of your non-resistant mites bought the farm right off, leaving the resistant mites to carry on. The kill rate dropped quickly, but it leveled off too high, at around 100 mites a day. The drop just didn't look like a typical kill from an effective pesticide, even for there being brood in the hive. You can't expect a really effective pesticide treatment if your bees are raising brood.


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## db_land

longarm: Congrats! I think you have DWV resistent bees and Apistan resistent mites. IMO, it's only a matter of time before bees and mites adapt to one another so that both thrive - maybe your hive is one of the first. 

What other debris do you see on the insert? If brood is emerging you should be able to recognize brood cappings. Usually you can see stripes of debris just below the open space between frames. Are the fallen mites concentrated in these stripes are scattered about randomly? 

Thanks again for doing the counting and observations!


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## Dave W

>The difference between our perspectives Dave is that you think he had 10,000 mites in his hive to start with 2 months ago that and he's been killing them ever since, and I think he had about 2000 or so in his hive 2 months ago and that they've been breeding ever since . . . 

Very well said









Some how, I can relate a natural drop of 71 (7/31/06) to 10,000 mites but not to the 3500 you predicted on Aug 9


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## Dave W

>If brood is emerging you should be able to recognize brood cappings . . .
I agree. Brood cappings are a bit darker than honey cappings and easy to recognize in early spring. But when hive is active, other debris makes them hard to see.

>Usually you can see stripes of debris . . .
Strips ALWAYS occur. With very, very little debris or no debris (just mites) they are hard to recognize. If sticky board remains long enough, they become one large area.

>Are the fallen mites concentrated in these stripes are scattered about randomly? 
The word "are" should be "or" (sorry db_land







).
This could be a good clue as to where the mites are when they are being killed, UNLESS they fall, crawl around, THEN die.

>Thanks again for doing the counting and observations!
Yes. I also want to say thank you.


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## George Fergusson

>Some how, I can relate a natural drop of 71 (7/31/06) to 10,000 mites but not to the 3500 you predicted on Aug 9

Sigh. Dave, I wish we could agree on this question of how drop relates to total population so we could move on... perhaps to disagree on some other aspect of mites









As I've said before, I subscribe to the Stephen J. Martin school of Mite Population Dynamics. The model that he developed fits very well what I have seen in my own hives and data I've had an opportunity to review from other people's hives, including your own Dave. I believe it.

From his paper:



> The model predicts that the ratio of live to dead mites will change dramatically between periods when bee brood is present or absent. However, since the ratios were shown to be stable within the periods, the mite population can be estimated throughout the year by multiplying the daily mite drop by [approx] 250–500 or 20–40 when brood is absent or present, respectively.


If there were 10,000 mites in longarm's hive at the end of July, I'd have expected to see a drop on the order of 300-400 mites per day, not 71. I'd also expect it to be dead by now.

The only hive I ever saw with anything like 10,000 mites in it was one of my own deadouts:

http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/deadhive/bottomboard1.jpg

VarroaPop for what it's worth kills off a hive with a 25% mite infestation level (40,000 bees, 10,000 mites) in relatively short order.

George-


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## BjornBee

George is afterall well known for his beekeeping experiences with killing hives and is known as one of the best mite farmers on the east coast....Sorry george...its been awhile.


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## sierrabees

Does George plan on shipping his stronger mite hives to California this year for almonds?


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## George Fergusson

>George... is known as one of the best mite farmers on the east coast....

Well, that was last year. I've failed to raise the crop of mites this year that everyone expected, myself included! Bjorn, what did I do wrong?

>Sorry george...its been awhile.

Yes, it has, and I'm glad to see you're sitting up and taking nourishment! It just isn't the same without you lobbing grenades around the place









>Does George plan on shipping his stronger mite hives to California this year for almonds?

Don't be silly









All kidding aside (sorry Bjorn!) I had the opportunity, early in my beekeeping career, to witness first-hand the effect mites can have on seemingly strong colonies. It was not pleasant losing most of my hives to mites the first winter, and I dare say I'm smart enough and observant enough to have learned the lessons I learned by watching just one of my hives die over the course of a few months, not 90 percent of them. Whatever! The fact is, I started up again this past spring with a greater understanding of and a healthy respect for the little suckers. I can honestly say, when it comes to mites, that I've been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.

I certainly don't claim to know everything there is to know about mites, and I don't doubt that I will lose more hives to mites in the future and when that happens, I will add to my knowledge of mites. I'm particularly interested in learning more about how mites and bees seem to "get along" for a while and the dynamics of the situation when the mites eventually, finally, get the upper hand and kill off the hive. It seems it's more than just hygenic behavior or lack thereof, more than just the mites breeding exceeding the bee's ability to handle them. All bees are hygenic to some extent- they're cleanliness freaks, almost by definition. Given a minimal population to start, mites have the ability to raise hive-killing populations in a single season. Why don't they? How does requeening affect the situation? Swarming? In a truly symbiotic host/parasite relationship, the parasite doesn't kill the host. Bees and varroa haven't had a chance to work this out yet... if and when they do, what will it look like? What will be the beekeeper's role in colony maintainance 5 years from now in regard mites? In 10 years? In 20 years? How does what we're doing now impact the ultimate outcome?

I've got more questions than answers









One thing I have discovered: I firmly believe that people tend to over-estimate the numbers of mites in their hives and under-estimate the mite's ability to seriously impact their bees. In other words, I believe it takes a lot less mites to cause problems than most people think. 

Sunday morning ramblings.. It's going to be a great day. It frosted last night and today the bees are going to be out working the last of the aster and trashing the autumn crocus blooming in my mother's yard. I think I'll go get some pictures, and if I'm lucky, I'll even get stung









Cheers,

George-


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## Dick Allen

It does seem to me that, in general, northern beekeepers are having more difficulty with mites than southern beekeepers. Many of (but by no means certainly not all) the claims of not having to treat for mites are coming from the folks down south where brood rearing goes on longer and starts earlier than up north. Bees in the north can go mostly broodless for 4-5 months at a time while mites continue to live on, suck blood from and weaken their hosts.


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## George Fergusson

Sunday afternoon ramblings now, I've been up to the apiary and fed my double 4 frame nucs for the last time this season, and hefted all my hives. They're in good shape this fall after only a very small amount of selective feeding- a few of the later swarms I caught this summer needed some extra feed. I didn't think I was going to get stung at all but finally managed to get stung once, but it took some trying.

Interesting notion Dick. I don't know if it's true, but it's worth thinking about the differences between northern beekeeping and southern beekeeping and how those might affect the varroa situation. I think a lot of the so-called "problems" that northern beekeepers have in general largely result from emulating southern beekeepers and their management practices. I wonder, if northern beekeepers started acting like northern beekeepers and treating their bees like northern bees, things might be a lot different.

All beekeeping is local.

I've begun to start thinking of our winters as a Good Thing, the great equalizer of sorts. I may as well, because for better or worse, I like it here. I'm not moving. We have a winter that weeds out weak, unfit, and unlucky bees, leaving the strong, fit, and lucky colonies to carry on.

I suspect one aspect of managing varroa successfully, with or without treatments, is breaking the brood cycle. I remember when I first got going with bees, I argued with Michael Bush about the benefit of breaking the brood cycle to control varroa- he claimed it had a major impact on the mite's population growth, and I felt, well sure, it couldn't hurt, but what would interupting their breeding cycle for 3 weeks really do to help the situation much?

It turns out Michael was correct. Gee, I shoulda seen that one coming









I don't know if breaking the brood cycle is sufficient in and of itself to control varroa in northern climes, but it's a good start. The problem for northern beekeepers is that with a short season, you really can't afford to just go breaking the brood cycle any old time you feel like it. Do it at the wrong time and you get no honey. Do it at the wrong time and your colony won't build up in time for winter. Do it at the wrong time and the effect on the mites will be inconsequential. My bee's foraging season starts in mid-April when they start hauling in the pussy willow pollen on nicer days and ends in mid-September when the golden rod and aster starts to die back. That's 5 months total flying time, with really only about 2 months of generally good foraging weather- June and July. May is typically cold and wet and hives around here are as likely to lose weight that month as put any on. August is largely a dearth until the goldenrod starts up later on in the month and by the end of September, it's all over.

So when is a good time for northern beekeepers to break the brood cycle? I'm guessing after the main summer flow is over- end of July. You can't really start to raise queens until mid to late June.

Nice afternoon. Off to haul some wood.


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## iddee

Possibilities....

Southern people are just smarter than yankees.

The bees benefit from scrounging sugar from the moonshine mash.

Southern beeks keep their resistant queens and ship the non-resistants north with packages.








  

I would think it has a lot to do with the weakening of the hive overall. The summer bees live a shorter life and the mites have less time to do damage to individuals. They do most damage by weakening the bees so they are not strong enough to make it through the longer dormant period when the young bees are not emerging to replace the die offs. Even tho I don't treat and my bees are making it, the hive populations are much lower than prior 1987 hives were. This tells me that if it takes 90 days for mites to kill a bee, the ones dieing at six weeks of age aren't going to be affected like the ones overwintering for 5 or 6 months.


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## BjornBee

George, breaking the brood cycle during the flow can actually increase honey production. Larvae in the hive at the start of a main flow will not mature and contribute before the flow is over. Bees spend a great deal of energy and resources feeding and caring for larvae. Breaking the brood cycle and allowing bees to concentrate on foraging, instead of other items such as feeding larvae can boost honey production and help control mites at the same time. It may also be times nicely to keep colonies from swarming. And you could even use such a time to raise queens. It certainly is a management technique not many use, but one that has many benefits.

Waiting till after the flow is over limits the impact and some of the different advantages it promotes.


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## Michael Bush

>George, breaking the brood cycle during the flow can actually increase honey production.

Exactly. Anytime from two weeks before to the middle of the flow it will probably make more honey and less mites. Two weeks before is probably the ideal time to confine, remove or otherwise stop the queen from laying.


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## George Fergusson

I'd have to to begin queen rearing in mid to late May if possible, and certainly no later than the first of June if I wanted to combine requeening with a break in the brood cycle before the end of the main flow. I'd been hoping to put off queen rearing until late June when the weather is more of a sure thing and I could make up make up my summer nucs in late July. That's what I tried to do this summer, but I got behind and didn't make up nucs until early August.

Timing. More thought required. But we've (I've) hijaacked Longarm's thread here... Sorry guys









George-


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## Michael Bush

If you make them queenless in mid to late May, they will make a queen. You can always requeen later. Here, two weeks before the main flow would be the last day of May or the first day of June.


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## longarm

MB - Do you have a link handy to more information on this subject? 
Thanks.


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## drobbins

longarm,

this thread will keep you busy









http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004759#000000

Dave


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## longarm

Still piling up mites... unreal. Here are counts for the past 4 days:

Oct. 7 = 569
Oct. 8 = 372
Oct. 9 + 10 = 670, so ~ 335 each day.


HIve 2 is showing an overall increase of mites as well.
Oct. 7 = 21
Oct. 8 = 14
Oct. 9 + 10 = 35, so ~ 17/day.


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## Michael Bush

>MB - Do you have a link handy to more information on this subject? 

Any description on cut down splits will cover the aspects of getting more honey by having less brood. There used to be some studies on the web on "early recruitment" but the links are broken now.

As far as confining the queen reducing mites. It's kind of obvious, that if I skip a brood cycle I'll get one brood cycle's less mites, not counting the ones that get groomed off and die of old age without reproducing another time.

If I don't breed my cow one year, I get less calves. If the mites miss a brood cycle that hurts them and helps the bees, it's a win - win.


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## longarm

Interesting. 
Obviously I will be looking at any and all strategies for reducing mites next year..
Dan


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

More numbers?


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## longarm

Oct 11 + 12 = 404 so ~ 202/day.

(hive 2 Oct 11 + 12 = 53 so ~ 26/day).


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

Whats your weather like now?


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## George Fergusson

Here's an interesting paper on the "Dynamics of Falling Varroa Mites in Honeybee (Apis mellifera)
Colonies Following Oxalic Acid Treatments."

http://vfu-www.vfu.cz/acta-vet/vol73/73-385.pdf

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I've scanned it and marked it for further study. It could spark some interesting discussion.

>(hive 2 Oct 11 + 12 = 53 so ~ 26/day). 

Woof.


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## longarm

Dave - mid 60s day and mid 40s nights. Might be warming up though for another week before the big wet starts.
George - why 'Woof'?


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## George Fergusson

Why woof. Well, mites are just impressive creatures I guess. Hive #2 was the one that "didn't have any mites" back at the beginning of August. Now, two and a half months later, it has a healthy breeding mite population of somewhere between 500 and 1000 mites. Or so.. Probably not enough to kill the hive this winter, but enough to worry about next spring. I'd seriously consider an oxalic acid treatment, vapor or dribble, later this fall when the hive is broodless and the mites are phoretic.


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## longarm

George - do you have a link handy that describes the procedure/necessary gear? I have seen oxalic acid referenced frequently but ..


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## George Fergusson

There's a current thread going now about oxalic acid evaporators:

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000869

No others come to mind right off, but search and you'll find plenty of discussion on OA and various ways of using it. I've vaporized it and dribbled it, and see benefits to both methods.


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

Hive #2 is NOT currently being treated. Right?

>mid 60s day and mid 40s nights . . .
Its been that way for a few weeks. 60s/40s is not good "robbing" weather







and I cant believe there are more than "a dozen" cells of brood for the Varroa to breed in.

Are you sure you are counting mites or does your sticky board have fly poop on it?





















Just joking.

If (when) you treat hive #2, maybe you could count the total mites killed. 500 to 1000 should be easy counting . . . now that you have experience.









I have vaporized OA, it's an easy method. It's a good method to use when NO BROOD is available.


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## longarm

Dave - you are correct. Hive 2 is NOT currently being treated. Treatment with Apistan ended September 16.


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## George Fergusson

They must be breeding in hive #2 to account for that drop. A population of all-phoretic mites would have to be massive to drop 26 mites in 24 hours.


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## longarm

another 24 hour count:
Hive 1: 135. This is the first count after application of 2nd tray of Apiguard.

(Hive 2: 19)

Daytime highs still above 60 degrees F.

[ October 17, 2006, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: longarm ]


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## longarm

I am interested in Oxalic acid. Need to keep costs down though . I have only 4 hives total and can't justify buying another expensive piece of gear to apply the acid. 
Will the drip work now?? If so.. how do I get some?!


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## George Fergusson

Oxalic acid itself is cheap, it's the packaging and handling that costs the most money. I bought a one pound tub of it for about $4.50 which included a nice rugged plastic container with snug-fitting lid. Hardware stores often have it under the heading of "wood bleach". Somewhere on the label it should say "oxalic acid". Call around, it's not too hard to find.

Dribbling it is quite effective when done properly- better than 90% effective when your hives are broodless, or very nearly so. Dribbling OA will kill open brood and it probably isn't good for capped brood either but I don't know that for sure.

I forget the exact instructions for mixing up a sugar-water and oxalic acid solution, but I'll look it up when I get home. All you need is a horse syringe or a turkey baster so you can administer a measured dose. I'll also have to review the procedure before I say any more lest I have to correct myself.

Vaporizing OA is relatively cheap too but nowhere near as simple as dribbling. Vaporizing requires an evaporator which you can build out of pipe fittings. I built one for about $5. You use a propane torch to heat the unit.

As for the pros and cons of vaporizing vs dribbling, you can vaporize OA more than once but you're only supposed to dribble it once a year. This suggest that dribbling is more hazardous to your bee's health than is vaporizing it. That said, it's probably not good for your bees to vaporize `em too much either.


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## George Fergusson

Longarm, here are my notes about dribbling oxalic acid:

-----------------------------
Preparation: The solution is prepared using one liter of water with one kilogram of sugar and 70 grams of store bought Oxalic Acid (which is Oxalic Acid Dihydrate). Mix thoroughly. (For those still helplessly addicted to pints and pounds and who do not need a quarts worth of solution, use one pint of water, one pint of sugar, and 1.168 ounces of Oxalic acid (same as about 2 1/3 tablespoons, or 7 teaspoons, or 2 tablespoons plus 1 teaspoon- all level and be precise) This is enough to treat about ten hives).

Application: I use a 150 or 100ml syringe, which you can buy at many farm supply stores, and drip 5ml of the mixture from end to end between frames for each hive body (or frame of bees). Trickle down 5ml of the solution by slowly pushing down on the syringe plunger. Do not be in a hurry or it will squirt out and not drip out.

When to apply: In the fall when the colony is near broodless. You can apply it down to freezing temperatures, so it is excellent to apply in November.
-------------------------

If you're thinking about dribbling oxalic acid, here's a paper worth reading:

http://www.beedata.com/files/drip-oxalic-bogdanov.PDF

George-


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## rache

george, not to be dense, but is that 5ml total, or 5 ml between each two frames?


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## George Fergusson

That's 5 ml between each pair of frames for a total of up to 50 ml per deep body.

Something doesn't add up does it. In a 10 frame deep there's actually 11 bee-spaces counting the one between the outside frames and the box walls. You only need to dribble it between frames actually occupied by bees and if there are no bees in the outside space, you don't need to dribble that. So it's really 5 ml for each bee-occupied space.

Each hive body gets up to 50 ml. Obviously, if the bees are all in one box, that's all you need to treat. Don't dribble an empty hive body


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## rache

gotcha


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## Maine_Beekeeper

Hi Longarm - 
How is the feeding going now? Are they showing any interest?


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## George Fergusson

This is a heck of a thread longarm, 11 pages and counting. Been a learning experience for everyone I'd say.

By the way, I think Apistaning (?) and then Apiguarding (??) your "bad" hive is plenty for one season, especially since you're treating so late into the season. Adding an OA treatment on top of it all probably wouldn't be the best advice. That hive is either going to make it or it's not. Your #2 hive might benefit from an OA treatment however, but that's your call.


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## longarm

Maine_beekeeper,
No they are not feeding at all. Strangely the other hives wouldn't touch the frame feeeder full of syrup either. Weird. But I did pour a lot of honey on the top bars and they seemed pretty excited about that and went straight to work.

George,
I was thinking of treating the other hives in the yard - not hive 1. Your info on oxalic acid drip is very useful - thank you. As you said.. very educational for sure.


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## wade

Hey longarm,

For what its worth, my bees are slowing way down too. Its been two weeks since I fed them and they're still working on it, whereas before they'd suck it down in a few days. Your mite hive looks like toast though, sorry.

Unless there's a really good reason to open a hive, you might oughta let them batten down the hatches for Winter. Once the rains and fog start up in 2-3 weeks they're gonna be in a cluster until February. Just my fellow greenhorn $.02


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## longarm

Wade - I am of the same opinion re: hive 1 unfortunately. It is still producing amazing numbers of mites (too bad they don't make honey!). 
3 day count averaged 132 per day. Hive 2 averaged 8 per day over the same period. Daytime highs over 60 degrees F. This weekend forecast to 70.

I am planning on oxalic drip in November on the other hives in the yard. Still need to get materials together.


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## Maine_Beekeeper

Longarm - 
Have you pulled the second apiguard trays yet?
highs in the 60's and 70's?! I'm so jealous. 
Have you looked at them lately? How are the stores? Are they still bringing in nectar and pollen? Perhaps there's a more attractive source than your feed. 
I wouldn't give up on them yet...


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## longarm

Hey Maine!
I installed the second tray of Apiguard on Monday - it will remain in for 2 weeks. While I haven't made a very thorough exam of the hive since September 17th, on Monday I pulled a frame or 2 and there was very little capped honey. 
I haven't given up entirely yet - would love to see them make it! They are bringing in pollen and I did see larvae in the hive.


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

>bringing in pollen and I did see larvae . . .
Can you estimate the "amount of brood" you have now?

[ October 21, 2006, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Dave W ]


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## longarm

Dave - not without a thorough examination of both boxes. If it warms up as predicted I might just get to it this weekend.


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## sierrabees

It kind of sounds like the mites in hive #1 might have a tollerance for apiguard. Here in Calif we usually don't repeat a treatment with the same product twice in the same year to try to prevent that sort of thing. I've talked to a lot of beeks who used apistan excessively and eventually found the mites happily crawling right on the strips with no effect. We learned the hard way that given enough exposure to most anything the mites might develop a tollerance to it by natural selection. On the other hand, you have a hive that is doing well. I would be inclined to eliminate the problem hive along with it's bees and mites and try to re-establish it with a queen produced by your good hive. Let Darwin work for you instead of against you. Of course it's easy to say that when you have plenty of colonies to work with. Michael Bush produces some queens that have demonstrated good tollerance for varroa mites and he probably will have some to sell in the spring.


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## Dave W

FYI and "for what its worth", I updated "my summary" found on page 7.


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## George Fergusson

>I updated "my summary" found on page 7.

Thanks Dave. Longarm, how's it looking now? It's been a while since we heard from you.


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## longarm

George, Dave, et al,
Been overwhelmed of late with other projects (which thankfully don't have mites) but will resume tinkering with the hive(s) after November 4 as I hope to treat with OA. Thanks for your continued interest.
Longarm


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## Dave W

Sure wish I had a new count


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## db_land

Hey longarm,
What's the current status of your mite-factory hive? I think I may have one similar - LOTS of bees and mites but none of the symptoms other than high mite drop rate.


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## longarm

Hey all,
It has been too cold to open the hive lately. But whenever it warms up a bit I always see lots of bees flying in and out. It's still kickin! Though I'm sure the mites are too...

Today I purchased oxalic acid (12oz for $6.49). A product called Savogran Wood Bleach. Called the company via the 800 number listed on the container and a rep told me it is 100% oxalic acid. So... if it warms up again in the next month I plan to apply it to all the hives as a drip. 

The party is not over yet for this hive!


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

Any counts in the last 30 days or so?

Do you plan to "count" before you use the OA?


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## longarm

Dave, I have made no counts lately. Will make a 24 hour count before using OA. I am expecting ...you'll never guess... huge numbers of mites.
Dan


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## longarm

Treated all hives with OA drip yesterday. Did not get a prior 24hr count but will make one later today. 
Hive 1 condition: Cluster the size of a large volleyball in the top deep and even a few on the top of the innercover. Top deep very light though with little stores.


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## longarm

first 24 hour mite count post OA treatment:
HIve 1) 8 mites.
Hive 2) 44 mites.


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## Maine_Beekeeper

WooHoooOOO!!!
Longarm - Sounds like they're making it!!!!
I'm guessing the OA is superflous.
Sounds to me like you got the bastards with the Apiguard (or maybe I'm just biased.)
You planning on giving them a candy board or sugar on the inner cover? (I would - in a big way - and am on my own hives here in the state with the other Portland)
A little pollen substitute patti in the early spring never hurt nobody neither - (except the swarm catcher)
Pushaw to the nay sayers, I think you've "kept" these bees. 
-E.


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## longarm

Another mite count. Weather since last count has been cool (highs in the low 50s) during the day and no freezing at night.
Hive 1 after 4 days yielded only 40 mites, or 10/day.
Hive 2 after 4 days yielded 112 mites, or about 30 per day.

Is this what you would expect? 
I expected huge numbers of mites from hive 1 at least.
Recipe for OA drip was as per Randy Oliver's paper: 13.1g OA mixed in 1 cup warm H2O, then a cup of sugar added. Dripped via graduated lab syringe 5ml per bee space where bees were present. Hive 1 received 40mls total, hive 2 received 30mls total.


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## George Fergusson

Drop from oa drip can take a while to peak. Keep counting!


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## Dave W

>Cluster the size of a large volleyball . . .
Sounds good!

>in the top deep . . .
That's a bad place to be this time of year. They should be in bottom chamber now, top chamber only in eary spring.

>and even a few on the top of the innercover . . .
They are LOOKING for FOOD!

Better heed Maine_Beekeeper's advice








Please don't let them starve. 

>Is this what you would expect? 

Typically, NATURAL mite drop is VERY low in winter. Your drops of 8 and 10 are within typical "winter range". 

On Nov 30th, I asked, "Do you plan to "count" before you use the OA". A PRE-TREATMENT count(s) may have indicated low numbers, and thus no real need for treatment at this time.

Oh well, PLEASE keep counting









After the effects of the OA wane, you can insert a clean stick board, leave it in place and just count every 30 days or so (until about March). That way you dont have to count often, but you are still monitoring


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## longarm

Good advice Dave - thanks. 
Was thinking I would put a couple of frames of capped honey in the hive in the top deep to stave off starvation as soon as I can/weather permits.
In the mean time I am following Maine_beekeepers suggestion.
Dan


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## longarm

A sunny day today! Nice break after the last couple of weeks of freezing, light snow, and rain. Bees seemed very pleased and all hives had a good fly. Last week I put a candyboard (Erin - you are the best!) in Hive 1 and there was evidence that they have been chewing away at it since. Still a volleyball sized cluster in Hive 1. I sprayed a bit of syrup into empty comb. Here are the surprisingly low mite counts from hives 1 and 2. I expected a LOT more mites..?

Hive 1: 61 mites over an 8 day period, so ~ 7 mites per day.
Hive 2): 120 mites over the same period, so ~ 15 mites per day.


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## Maine_Beekeeper

Longarm - Glad to hear they're still doing well!
we're going to need some pictures of the hive in spring!


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## Dave W

>7 mites per day . . .

Based on this hive's count history, this sounds "reasonable", "what I would expect", etc.

But, 15 is a "head-scratcher"









Maybe I can pick a fight w/ George







by asking, since this hive's count continues to rise (or remain high), are the mites still "BREEDING" Or is this "seasonal die-off" showing up on the sticky board?


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## George Fergusson

>Maybe I can pick a fight w/ George









Always ready for a good natured argument Dave!

>since this hive's count continues to rise (or remain high), are the mites still "BREEDING" Or is this "seasonal die-off" showing up on the sticky board?

I don't really believe in varroa "seasonal die-off" unless you're referring to the elevated drop that occurs when the bees start slacking off on brood rearing and the mites pile into less and less worker brood. That's a late-season event that doesn't last all that long and which typically results in a dead hive by the first of the year. An elevated drop count at Christmas is something else.

Longarm treated with OA drip on 12-8, 15 days ago. We may still be seeing some residual drop from that treatment though I'd expect it to have leveled off by now. Looking at the drops since he treated, it looks like we're pretty much back to the baseline.

If the bees aren't raising brood, then there's a whopping mite population in both hives, 1400-2500 mites in hive #1 and 3000-4500 mites in hive #2.

One has to wonder, given what these hives have been through since mid-summer, why they're still alive? They certainly seem to have mite-tolerance figured out.

I'd say the bees are still raising brood, that's been my explanation for the numbers since this thread started and I don't see a good reason to change it now









Furthermore, they were likely still raising brood when Longarm treated 15 days ago which explains the poor efficacy of the treatment. It's hard to imagine treating a broodless hive with OA drip and have a natural daily drop of 7-15 mites 15 days later. Why aren't they dead if they weren't in brood breeding? I suspect my bees are raising brood what with the weather having been so warm this fall- here it is December 23rd and the lake isn't even frozen yet, and it's raining out. I remember ice skating on Thanksgiving. Wassup with that?


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## Dave W

>Always ready for a good natured argument . . .
"Good natured"????







You are just "GOOD"!

>I don't really believe in varroa "seasonal die-off" . . . 
Why? Does it happen w/ about every other living thing?

An elevated drop count at Christmas is something else . . . 
Not if you "believe"









>Looking at the drops since he treated, it looks like we're pretty much back to the baseline . . .
I agree. 

>1400-2500 mites in hive #1 and 3000-4500 mites in hive #2 . . .
George, I'm not rich, but I'll bet my last million bucks







, that there are NOT 4500 mites in ANY living hive on Christmas day. At times, I too am not a good Believer.

Here's a dumb thought . . . could the formula your using to calculate this be wrong?

>They certainly seem to have mite-tolerance figured out . . . 
And if the mites are dying off and only a few remain, life may now (till spring) be easy for the bees









>I'd say the bees are still raising brood . . .
OK, w/ 4500 mites and only a few cells of worker brood (100 cells max???), are the hatching bees deformed? What signs of PMS do we see? 

Is it possible that only a few hundred mites remain phoretic and the drop numbers are just old mites dropping due to weather, old age and bee grooming?

If the drop is checked regularly throughout winter, you see drastic (50% or more) daily fluctuation. Breeding mites produce a steady climbing growth in numbers, not 15 one day and 7, 5, or 3 the next day. When your drop numbers show a 1000% increase in a 60 day period, you KNOW mite reproduction has begun. I have seen it, just DO mite counts  

>I don't see a good reason to change it now . . .
You will change your mind, WHEN you see a good reason







Please keep looking!

>they were likely still raising brood when Longarm treated 15 days ago which explains the poor efficacy of the treatment . . .
Using past explanations for "poor treatment", why not say the mites are resistant? Why not blame Longarm? Was there something wrong w/ the OA, did the OA cover all the bees, how was it mixed, how was it applied, etc? The end result seems to be about the same as if/when we used the awfully stuff called "Apistan".


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## George Fergusson

>"Good natured"???? You are just "GOOD"!

Flattery will get you no where Dave...

>Here's a dumb thought . . . could the formula your using to calculate this be wrong?

Sure. Probably is. Martin's 20-40 multiplier when there is brood and 250-500 when there isn't makes for a relatively wide range of possible values. When brood rearing is ramping up or falling off, large fluctuations in drop can occur but I think when the bees are steadily brooding, or not brooding at all, that the multipliers work pretty well.

The question is, are longarm's bees raising brood or not?

>Is it possible that only a few hundred mites remain phoretic and the drop numbers are just old mites dropping due to weather, old age and bee grooming?

I personally don't see how a few hundred mites can generate daily drop counts like he's seeing.

>Breeding mites produce a steady climbing growth in numbers, not 15 one day and 7, 5, or 3 the next day. 

That's only if the bees are rearing brood steadily. This time of year, if they're rearing brood at all, it's probably sporadic so I'd expect mite drop to be sporadic too. Also, if brood rearing is sporadic, then it's really hard to correlate drop counts to total population.

>Using past explanations for "poor treatment", why not say the mites are resistant?

Resistant to oxalic acid? Dave! Dood! Hush yo mouth!

The efficacy of oxalic acid drip treatments can vary, if you don't get good coverage for example or if the bees are tightly clustered.

Bottom line, time will tell. I suspect longarm's hives are (still?) rearing brood, at least some amount- enough to keep the drop counts up. If they're not rearing brood then the drop counts suggest the hives should already be dead.

George-


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## JBird

I'm planning to treat four hives with oxalic acid trickle this winter. I'm located near Philadelphia, PA. Given the oddly warm winter we're experiencing thus far, I *think* the bees are still raising brood and and I've been hesitant to trickle. The bees are still flying a few days a week and bringing in some pollen. I realize there's no perfect answer to this question, but I'd appreciate hearing from more experienced folks when should I trickle? When would be too late to trickle? Is it already too late? We've already passed the solstace, the weather is weird, the bees need the mite load knocked down and I'm at a loss...


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## Dave W

>Hush yo mouth!
SEEEEE, we DO agree, at least one point!









>sporadic brood . . .
Hmmmm, Got proof? We dont believe anything you say









For some reason, I thing of the queen laying eggs at a steady pace. First zero, then about Janurary a few, increaing to hundreds, peaking at a thousand or so (about late Apr), then decreasing. Maybe stopping (or very near) for an August dearth, then resuming (at slower but steady rate) till about Nov/Dec.

JBird . . .
Why do you "think" you NEED to treat?


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## JBird

Dave W,

I believe the bees need a treatment as I've counted 24hr mite drops of 5-15 mites for the past month, indicating that there is likely a healthy Varroa population in each hive. I'm working my way to small cell but am not there yet and would like to trickle oxalic acid at a time of minimal brood. It's looking increasingly likely that I'll just have to go for it and trickle when I deem best, eventhough with this oddly warm winter there is likely to be more brood at this time of year than during a more typical winter. I was just wondering when one could generally expect a brood minimum in my part of the world and how deleterious it would be to the bees (and inefficetive against the mites) to treat outside that window.


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## Dave W

JBird . . .

Drops of 5 and maybe 15, if the 15 only happens once or twice, are not what "I" call a "big problem" in winter. But, my hive that had similar drops only lived for 47 months









My opinion (understand its just that, opinion) is that it might be best to hold off now on treatment and prepare for the "big battle", starting in VERY EARLY spring.

Now would be a very poor time to do anything that might result in queen loss or bee loss. During the next few weeks, the bees are going to be stressed w/ cold, maybe lack of food/pollen, maybe wet hive or too little moisture. It's a time when some would say, "stay out of the hive and leave them alone"!


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## JBird

Dave W,

Thanks for your reply. I'd much prefer to leave the bees alone and that's exactly why I was asking if it was getting too late to trickle. 

When you refer to waging the "big battle" in "VERY EARLY spring," what stratgey would you employ? Does "VERY EARLY spring" mean early to mid March?

Thanks.


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## George Fergusson

Jbird, the risk of a treatment at this time is that you'll shorten the lives of the overwintering bees which will hamper their spring buildup, should the hive survive that long. OA drip treatments in mid-winter are also somewhat less effective than treatments in late fall due to the bees being more tightly clustered, which affects the distribution of the OA laced syrup. I don't know if the same holds true for OA vapor but I suspect it does.

>I was just wondering when one could generally expect a brood minimum in my part of the world and how deleterious it would be to the bees (and inefficetive against the mites) to treat outside that window.

Good question. This has been a really mild winter so far and many people's bees are brooding up at a much higher level than they would in normal years at this time. Given the drops you're seeing (5-15 per day) and the fact that your hive is still alive, I think it's a safe bet that your bees are raising brood. Otherwise, those numbers would suggest a serious mite infestation level. This is pretty much the same situation as longarm's hives which are, in my opinion, still raising brood. The difference is I know more about the treatment history of his hives I don't know anything about yours. Some information in this regard would be helpful.

The risk of treating with OA drip when the bees are raising brood is only reduced efficacy of the treatment and the more brood the bees are rearing, the lower the effectiveness of the treatment. This is the only real reason for treating during periods of broodlessness and it holds true for ALL treatments. There is no solid evidence that OA injures open or capped brood whether it's applied by dribbling or vaporization.

So, I guess my advice would be to hold off on treatment and continue to monitor. Typically there is a January thaw of some sort where it warms up enough for the bees to move about and make cleansing flights. That would be a good time to treat if your numbers are continuing to rise. Otherwise, prepare to jump on the problem come spring and hope your hive makes it through till then


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## JBird

George, I certainly appreciate your lengthy and thoughtful reply.

>The difference is I know more about the >treatment history of his hives I don't know >anything about yours. Some information in this >regard would be helpful.

Both the hive in question were started this summer from 5-frame Nucs. I have not treated them at all.

>Typically there is a January thaw of some sort >where it warms up enough for the bees to move >about and make cleansing flights. That would be >a good time to treat if your numbers are >continuing to rise. 

Well, as I mentioned, we've been reaching the mid-50's here every day for ten days or so and will continue to do so for at least the next week it seems. As I mentioned, the bees have been flying for a short period of a few hours every day we get into the 50's and they're finding pollen somewhere. Given this, I'm wondering if this situation might be a decent time to treat, as you describe above? In any case, I'll always monitor the mite drop and be prepared to treat as necessary. 

One big unanswered question I have, however, is if I do need to treat in spring (with brood rearing in full swing), is oxalic acid trickling a good method? Or is there a better alternative for treating in spring?


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## George Fergusson

As far as I'm concerned Jbird, when the bees are in full scale brood rearing, there isn't a satisfactory treatment. They all fall short. If I had to do it in early spring though, I'd either vaporize OA or dust `em with powdered sugar a couple of times, a week apart, to knock down as many phoretic mites as I could- hopefully enough to get them through the summer. Multiple treatments are required when the bees are raising brood and OA drip can be hard on a colony trying to jump start itself in the spring, though you could probably get away with it mid-season when the bees are raising bees and the workers are foraging- they're short lived anyways.

Other opinions may vary. I'm trying to get away from treatments as much as I can and aiming for a single late fall treatment if required. So far, it's been required..


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## JBird

George, thanks for your thoughts. I guess this winter I just kept waiting and waiting for the weather to cool and the bees to stop rearing brood but neither has happened. Now it's too late to treat it seems. I'll just continue to monitor the mite drops and see how things unfold. I'm planning to set out ~5 swarm traps this spring so hopefully I'll be able to compensate for any losses with feral stock. Thanks again.


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## George Fergusson

>hopefully I'll be able to compensate for any losses with feral stock.

That's the ticket. I picked up.. 5 last year, 2 in traps and 3 hanging swarms. I plan to get more traps out earlier this year. Nothing like free bees









Your nucs, if they didn't come with too many mites, should be OK through this winter everything else being equal, but this year you're going to have to be more proactive in dealing with your mite situation.

Happy New Year


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## Dave W

>waging the "big battle" in "VERY EARLY spring," . . .

Almost always the second year w/ V-mites is worse than the first. Third year is most often the "killer". A first-year hive starts w/ zero mites, second year begins w/ mites "left over". This "left over" population provides a larger pool of mites to begin the reproduction process. Thus, the "battle is bigger".

Very early spring could mean February IF you use any of the following:

a)Mite-A-TholR to control Tracheal mites - 
Apply by Feb 15 (if temp is expected to reach at least 600 F [Package]) to allow for 28-day minimum treatment [Mann Lake 2003 Catalog, p34] and 30-day withdrawal [Package] before adding honey supers. 

b) Terramycin to prevent American and/or European foulbrood - Apply on Feb 18, Feb 23, and Feb 28 to allow 45-day withdrawal before adding honey supers on Apr 15th [DLW].

c) Varroa Mites - Applying miticides in spring, when mite levels are low, does not reduce the mite population in colony during late summer. Varroa populations are nearly identical if miticide application is made on February 15 or August 15 [ABJ, 8/05, p631]. If applying Apistan, apply on Mar 1 (daytime temp at least 500 F [Package]), leave for at least 42 days [Package]; remove after Apr 11 but before Apr 26 [Package]. Honey supers may be added immediately after removing strips.


>what stratgey would you employ? . . .

First necessity to controlling Varroa mites is to measure them. If you don't measure them you can't know when and if you need to treat with anything and if you do treat and you don't measure, you can't know if what you are using is working.

How do you know they need treatment if you don't count the mites? And how do you know the treatment worked if you don't count the mites? Since even the most "hard chemical" solutions such as Apistan and CheckMite+ are now failing for many people, it is folly not to monitor the mite levels before and after the treatments. If you use alternative treatments, how do you know they work if you don't monitor before and after? And if you don't monitor, how do you know you aren't treating when you don't need to and contributing to the chemical resistance that is now rampant?

If you want to keep your bees alive you must learn to monitor Varroa mite levels. 
- Michael Bush, June 01, 2005 [http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000367;p=1#000013].

Longarm seems to have mastered this first requirement very well. Others need to learn from his efforts.

The second step in "my control stratgey" would be the use of Drone Trapping or Drone Brood Removal which should begin 26-30 days before apple blossom [BC 2/06, p21].

Drone brood removal will dramatically suppress the growth of V-mites population during brood-rearing season and ensure that you have strong, health colonies going into Winter [BC 2/06, p19]. Drone brood removal will NOT completely eliminate the need for miticides [BC 2/06, p21]. This biotechnical measure allows the deferral of acaricide treatments until end of summer and is only one measure in a system
[http://www.apis.admin.ch/en/krankheiten/docs/biotech/drohnnenbrut_e.pdf ]. It is important to realize that drone brood removal will NOT halt the population development of V-mites. Female mites will still enter worker brood cells and reproduce. Reproduction rate will just be slower in worker brood. [http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/pests-diseases/animals/varroa/guidelines/control.htm  p 63, Accessed 8/1/05].

According to European field studies, the mite population in heavily infested colony can be reduced from 16,000 mites to about 1750 (89%) provided there is no re-invasion from other colonies. Drone brood removal can at least temporarily halt the growth of mite population in colony. [http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/pests-diseases/animals/varroa/guidelines/control.htm  p 58, Accessed 8/1/05].

Step 3 - Begin Small Cell Regression 

Step 4 - MONITOR, MONITOR, and MONITOR some more









[ January 02, 2007, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Dave W ]


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## Maine_Beekeeper

How about an ApiLifeVar treatment first thing in spring?


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## George Fergusson

>A first-year hive starts w/ zero mites

This has not been my experience in the first 2 years of my beekeeping and I'd be surprised if this was ever really the case except perhaps in the very early years of the mite invasion. ALL my new colonies whether from packages or nucs came with some number of mites. It figures that if the source of the colony has mites, any splits or packages produced from that colony is going to have mites even with an effective treatment prior to sale.

The most you can hope for is a low initial population. I've been hearing about a lot of first year hives having mite problems. The days of believing that mites only kill hives in the second or more likely the third year are over. You need to be vigilant from day one.

George-


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## kensfarm

Hi George & Dave,

Okay guys.. your advice seems confusing.. 

"My opinion (understand its just that, opinion) is that it might be best to hold off now on treatment and prepare for the "big battle", starting in VERY EARLY spring.

"Now would be a very poor time to do anything that might result in queen loss or bee loss. During the next few weeks, the bees are going to be stressed w/ cold, maybe lack of food/pollen, maybe wet hive or too little moisture. It's a time when some would say, "stay out of the hive and leave them alone"!"


"So, I guess my advice would be to hold off on treatment and continue to monitor. Typically there is a January thaw of some sort where it warms up enough for the bees to move about and make cleansing flights. "

-JB has natural mite drops of 5-15 in 24 hrs.
-Currently temps reach the 50's during the day where he is located.
-OA is best used when brood rearing is min. or none.

From my mind.. and the information that has been given.. I would say go ahead and OA right now(mid-day). Why let the mites feed off the bee's until spring? 

Then monitor mite drops after the OA treatment.. with continued monitoring of mite counts till spring. 

Even if there is a small brood area now.. it will only get larger as we get closer to the spring.. but the mites are slowly killing the bees now. 

What am I missing?


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## Dave W

>I would say go ahead and OA right now(mid-day). Why let the mites feed off the bee's until spring? 

With all due respect, I guess "we" could treat every day of the year, two or three times per day, with four or five things someone has declared to be "best", if we wanted to.

>What am I missing?

A good, very effective Fall treatment is whats missing. The mite-load SHOULD have been controlled BEFORE now. From here on and through spring, treatments do not impact mite load very much (see ABJ, 8/05, p631).


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## kensfarm

Dave.. I'm sorry if you feel my questions have been dis-respectful.. that was not my intent. My intent was to discuss the advise given.. and that the current warmer weather pattern might require a shift in spring management treatment schedules to match the brood cycles.. which seem to have started a month early.


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## JBird

>A good, very effective Fall treatment is whats >missing. The mite-load SHOULD have been controlled >BEFORE now. From here on and through spring, >treatments do not impact mite load very much (see >ABJ, 8/05, p631).

While I appreciate the advice I have received, I am a little perplexed as everything that I had read regarding the timing of oxalic acid treatment referred to treating at the time of brood minimum, usually early winter. Now, I'm hearing from some that Fall is the ideal time. Where I love, my bees were still rearing a considerable amount of brood in the Fall. In retrospect, I should have treated in late November/early December, but I don't think the window for effective oxalic acid treatment has closed for me yet.


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## George Fergusson

>Now, I'm hearing from some that Fall is the ideal time.

For many of us, fall, or more accurately, late fall, is when our bees are broodless, or nearly so. This year seems to be different.

Regardless of the season, broodless periods are much preferred for treatments of any kind, if you can arrange it. That said, if your mite population is out of control when the bees are getting ready for winter, you may need to treat regardless of what the bees are up to.

Sorry if you feel like you're getting mixed messages- Dave W and I don't see totally eye to eye on this, but for the most part we're on the same page. It's assessing the mite population and interpreting mite counts that we tend to disagree about.


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## Dave W

IMO, I think and feel







that too much is ASSUMED when we "talk" about using OA.

From the "talk", some say treat "anytime", some "treat when broodless", treat in fall, treat in early winter, treat whenever. Its easy to be perplexed. I'm glad I have company









In my statement, "The mite-load SHOULD have been controlled BEFORE now", I was not talking about when OA should have been used.

kensfarm . . .
>questions have been dis-respectful . . .
That is not how I read any question. 
Sorry, if my answer seemed disrespectful









George Fergusson . . .
>we're on the same page . . .
Yes. 

>assessing the mite population and interpreting mite counts that we tend to disagree about.
Disagree? Not really. Clearly, V-mites are a problem that NO ONE fully understands.
It is easy for some to just repeat what we hear, what we are told (those w/ high IQs are good at it), but some of us have to kinda figure it out on our own. Please bear w/ me


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## longarm

The thread that won't die!
Anyway for those who placed bets on the death of Hive 1 by the new year.. you lost. It is still going very strong. So pay up, suckas!
Here are the mite counts today:
Hive 1 ... 13 mites over a total of a 4 week period.
Hive 2 ... 49 mites over the same period, so a little less than 2 mites per day.

So.. begs the question: did the oxalic acid treatment have any positive effect? Was the cluster too tight for the dribbled acid/syrup to be spread evenly through tthe colonies? Never saw a huge mite drop after treatment.
And... what are your new bets?

[ January 20, 2007, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: longarm ]


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## Maine_Beekeeper

Quoting Longarm on 9/28/06 >> Actually, as I think Wade suggested, I will NOT pursue any futher treatment on hive 1 this year. If they make it through the winter (which apparently I am not the only one doubtful of) then I will do what I can in the spring
>>Oh - and thanks again to all posters in this thread! I've learned a lot in the process of counting mites..
Tell you what - I'll post a date when this hive bellies up, for those with a gambling spirit.

And George 9/29/06 >>Oh heck Longarm, it's not certain it will die, only very likely. If it does, I'll be very sorry for your loss. In any case, you're learning a good deal going through this, and providing a good learning opportunity for everyone.
10/2/06 >>>if hive 1 makes it thru the winter I'd implement a SERIOUS drone brood culling program next spring
If hive 1 makes it thru the winter, it'll be a freakin miracle [Smile]
And Longarm again 10/2/06 >>NEW TREATMENT APPLICATION BEGINS TODAY
10/4/06 >> Killing mites feels great!
And Myself 10/5/06 >> Congratulations on the mite killing. >>This hive may crash but it aint going to be from lack of trying.
Me, I'm betting they make it through.

Congratulations Longarm for not giving up! 
Winter aint over yet, but so glad to hear that things are still looking good! Just goes to show it is always worth it to try... We are all learning a ton from your experience. Thanks for continuing to share!


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## George Fergusson

Good going Longarm. I've maintained all along that it looked like hive #1 had a high tolerance for varroa without showing the normal symptoms of heavy mite infestation. That doesn't mean it won't die, doesn't mean it will.

You may be out of the woods. Here in Maine, it's 0 degrees this morning and it will be mid-April before I start counting my survivors. Hope yours survives. If it does, raise some queens from it


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## longarm

Yes.. well.. my exuberance now somewhat tempered I do have to agree that I am not out of the woods yet. This hive has been full of surprises for me. It was just nice that this latest did not involve counting parasites by the hundreds. 
We'll see.


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## George Fergusson

Tempered Exuberance eh? Good deal









What's the weather like in Willamette Valley? When does spring.. spring?


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## longarm

Unusual year thus far, George. We have had what for here passes as a long freezing spell (couple of weeks) and it is just now warming up a bit: highs in mid 40s to 50, lows around 30. Bees are out and gathering what I think is either alder of filbert pollen (beige/gray) whenever they can.
Typically snowdrops are first to open in early February, the maples and fruit trees in the end of April/beginning of May.


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## Dave W

>a little less than 2 mites per day . . .

Ahhhhhhhhh . . . . brings back memories.

Just dont let it starve - February is known as the "Hungry month".


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## longarm

Dave, 
Been working on that a bit. Would appreciate any advice. Thusfar I have given them a candy board (made of 4 cups sugar) and it is more than half gone. Today I also gave them a pollen/honey patty. The cluster is in the top box just beneath the IC. How can I get them more to eat? Do you think a frame feeder will work in the upper hive box?
BTW high today was 52, lots of bees flying.


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## Dave W

>today was 52, lots of bees flying . . .

Anytime bees are flying, they can "go to" and "eat from" a liquid source.

Have your read (elsewhere) about the famous "MountainCamp" style of liquid feeding?

Feeding inside is always a good idea, but might be a bit too early for a top feeder (IMO). TF provides a "lot", and provides it "quickly" - great for "bulking up". This time of year, its best to feed them only what the can eat, so they don't fill the brood nest. Its way too early for a swarm.









>Would appreciate any advice . . .
This "aint advice". 
Advice is something known to work and something you have to pay for


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## George Fergusson

Hey longarm!

Been a while since the last post. What's the news with your hives? Have they made it? Inquiring minds want to know wassup!


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## harlond

Bump. A very educational thread.


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## longarm

Back by popular demand..

Last did a mite count on 3.3.07. The previous mite count was 41 days earlier. Here then are the numbers for hives 1 and 2 for a 41 day drop:
Hive 1) 13 mites,
Hive 2) 23 mites.

Other info: I reduced Hive 1 to a nuc as there were only 3 frames of bees. Queen is present. Included in the nuc is a frame of honey and one of pollen/honey.
Prior to reducing to a nuc both top and bottom deeps contained a total of 7 frames of honey (4 in top, 3 in bottom). Numerous frames of pollen also present particularly in the bottom box. BUT pollen reserves there were molded. As little as ~5% of a frame to maybe 40%. Color of mold is predominantly white, a little green. Mold is only in the cells on top of the pollen, not over the comb. When this colony was still in the deeps I attempted to give them a pollen/honey patty. They did not eat it even after 2 weeks so I removed and discarded it. Numerous dead bees on the bottom board.
The nuc is acting as normal.. bringing in pollen, etc. There is also a bit of capped brood present and larvae. 

Hive 2 appears to be my strongest hive. Very large colony actively bringing in lots of pollen. Entire frames (deeps) of capped brood, etc. Eating up the mixed pollen/honey patties I give them (4 so far). This colony also still has a top deep 2/3 full of capped honey.

My plan for Hive 1 (the nuc) is to simply leave them alone now. No more chemicals, no more fussing. If they make it I will be happy. If not..well I think we have it a good shot. 
Also plan on starting a regular powdered sugar treatment on the other hives while maintaining a mite count to see what happens there.

So.. 
What would you do with the frames of honey and slightly molded pollen from Hive 1?


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## drobbins

longarm

refresh my memory
which had the high mite counts and endless treatments?

Dave


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## George Fergusson

I think hive 1 was the mite-factory.

For that matter, how many hives do you have longarm?


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## drobbins

George

I went back and re-read it
you're correct
I'll restate my earlier advice
breed from the best and forget the rest
I got some rockin good bees from iddee last year and this year is going to be my first shot at raising a few queens from them to re-queen my other hives
"bad" bees aren't something you save
the obvious exception being keeping them alive till you can re-queen them with better stock

Dave


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## Dave W

longarm . . .

How many dead bees did you find in old hive #1 BEFORE you reduced them to "a nuc" (I assume a smaller box).

Is that 13 mites in 41 days (.3 per 24 hrs)?

While the bees are in the nuc, can you still do mite counts (does it have a SBB)


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## longarm

drobbins,
Hive 1 was the buggy one.

George,
I have 4 now.. soon more. The only one - so far - to have this mite problem was my first hive, a purchased package. The other hives are from ferals. Fingers crossed.


Dave W,
I found several handfulls of bees inside the hive dead caught up in between or on combs. Another several handfulls on the bottom board. Dead bees also on the ground in front of the hive but not in huge numbers.
Numbers correct for mite drop.
Will not have the ability to count mites while that colony is in a nuc..


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## Dave W

Longarm . . .


>Will not have the ability to count mites while that colony is in nuc..

Sounds like THE END to a very good story!

I want to thank you for all the information, your efforts and "attitude".

Good luck w/ all your hives.

Dave W


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## longarm

Dave W,
You're more than welcome!

Thanks to all who have expressed interest in this hive and its mite problem and thank you all especially for the information you have shared. Very educational for me.


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## George Fergusson

The moral of the story: Don't write a hive off until it's dead.


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## Dave W

How is this hive doing????


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