# Partially capped honey frames



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

O look for at least 90%..... more than that ands you have to have a refractometer and able to dry it down. It won't store well it will want to ferment.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

If these are drawn frames, I have found that they probably won't cap any cells that they can't fill. So if they run out of flow and have a frame with cells only half filled they seem to just leave it. I bought a refractometer for that reason, but rarely find any cells with moisture above 17.5%. Even when one side is completely uncapped. If the flow has been over for a week or so I think that it is probably dry. If they are still bringing in nectar then you need to be more careful.


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## BaconStreetBees (Mar 26, 2009)

There are nectar sources that will produce lousy flavored honey unless it has been cured. If it is uncapped, in my opinion, it is not cured. I would leave them in the hive and wait until the end of the season.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

You can always shake a partially drawn frame. If the nectar spills out easily...well, you know that you can't take it. If it stays in the comb, you can probably extract it. I only do that at the tail end of the harvest season when I'm not sure if they'll be bringing anything else in except my syrup.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I have always heard 2/3 capped is dry enough.


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

I'd guess the flow had slowed and they just never had enough to finish and cap. Or at least an incentive to cap it cause the cells seem pretty full.

Looks like the corrolary question is: should I be pulling these two supers off this hive now or waiting until fall? 
This is my first harvest and I know that now is a typical harvest time. Is there a disadvantage/advantage in delaying this harvest?

I only have one super on that hive now. Any issues with overcrowding (going from 2 deeps and 3 med supers to 2 deeps and 1 super)?

Of course I ask all this *after* I pulled them off.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

A lot depends on whether you'll be treating for anything such as mites. A lot of beeks pull honey around now and then treat while the supers are off, replacing the supers after treatment is done. Depending on what you're treating with and your temps, you may not have that option or feel you don't need to. 

Beyond that, I always ask myself who needs the honey more, me or the bees. If the hive is lighter than I think it should be I leave it on. Many of my overwintered hives end up with a super on top because they didn't adequately fill the bottom boxes. I personally see no hurry to harvest early and I typically don't pull my supers until the end of the summer / early fall. I doubt you'll have overcrowding issues. If the supers are used for honey, they're really not "space" in the sense of a congested broodnest. Are you using excluders? If so, then the only broodnest issues you can be concerned about are below the excluder.


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

I'm operating pretty au naturale. 
I have a drone frame that I freeze and it has knocked back the mites. No excluders.
The top brood box is wicked heavy, lots of honey.

I think I'll keep off the one super that is full and return part of the other super unless it's a mostly capped frame.
This will make it a lot easier to get into the brood boxes too. 

Need to decide if it's worth borrowing the club's extractor to spin out about dozen frames. If I spin them, then I won't have to try and store the full frames. And the kids will have fun....

Thanks!


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## BaconStreetBees (Mar 26, 2009)

Au natural is fine, but I'd at least wear a veil.:lpf:


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

All the above is good stuff, but let me try something on you for next year. Because I oversuper deliberately to give the workforce space to apply the whole gang for maximum efficiency, I often have three or four supers in various stages of completion from compleated to a couple of frames capped. A couple of days before harvest the capped honey is consolidated at the top. Starting at the top with fume boards, I can load them on the truck as they come. 

The cosolidation serves several purposes. Placing the boxes of partially compleated frames at the top of the brood nest and below the capped honey leaves them in reach for further reduction of the brood nest by backfilling (with my two - month mid summer doldrums brood nest reduction is continuing) A reasonable fall flow will compleat them. Removed later. If not compleated in the fall, the open cell honey supports backfilling the brood nest at brood nest closeout. Take what's left early winter.

Walt


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

Thanks Walt. 
I was just reading your articles last night (and Michael's interpretation of the checkerboarding one).

I might have been going to do that (putting the partial frames above the brood), but not realizing the impact. Thanks for making me more conscious of the brood size varying / backfilling.

> Take what's left early winter.

You say that I can pull the supers in the early winter. What do you recommend to overwinter with? Just the 2 deep broods? 

Thanks!


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Currently have an outline for an article cataloging all my reasons for replacing the upper deep with two shallows. Long list. Won't go into it here.

In Mich. if you are carefull in late fall/early winter to insure that the lower deep is backfilled, naturally or by feeding, the deep of honey above is ample. In that case, you are limited to reversal for swarm prevention.

The colony is not going to try to winter on an empty brood nest. They need the honey underfoot for winter warming fuel. They will relocate the cluster into the upper deep of honey in early winter. They didn't eat their way up there - they moved there as a unit. To put the lower empty back in service - reverse. Brood volume jumps into the upper.

In either case the double deep is sufficient for wintering. But you are almost locked into periodic reversal for swarm prevention. Checkerboarding is awkward, at best, without a full box of honey to thin.

All this to say yes - you can peel them down to the double deep for winter rations, but a full shallow of capped honey above would facillitate CB. That shallow would more than pay for itself in increased honey.

Walt


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

wcubed said:


> All this to say yes - you can peel them down to the double deep for winter rations, but a full shallow of capped honey above would facillitate CB. That shallow would more than pay for itself in increased honey.
> 
> Walt


So, if I CB with the super of honey, they would expand the brood up into the super, right? I'm not concerned about that, just trying to follow the theory here.

I normally overwinter with MountainCamp's (sp?) technique of adding sugar on the top bars of the hive, acting as humidity control and a food supply. 
Could I just take that off in the spring and put on the super (that I would have to store someplace....)?

My other hive is foundationless and mediums, we'll see if I switch over this hive to mediums.

Thanks!


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

With the extra shallow of honey at the top, you would not need to feed. And left there, is as good a place to store it as any. If you prefer sugar to a top vent for humidity control, put it on top of the shallow -the warm moist air rises to the top.

Your need to feed in late winter makes me think that your cluster does move up (relocate) in early winter. They didn't have two deeps of stores in early winter. The trick is to feed concurrently with brood nest closeout in Oct. If the lower deep is properly prepared by backfilling, they will winter there and grow into the top deep, instead of consuming the top deep during the winter. Note that in your area fall forage often is taken out while the colony still has significant brood volume. They can't backfill with forage and they are reluctant to open capped unless it's necessary. The only option is to relocate the cluster upstairs.

Walt


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

This hive went into winter way light on stores, even after feeding during the fall. The sugar on the top bars is completely what got them thru the winter.

They backfill the brood cells with honey or nectar when they closeout the brood nest? Which means they pretty much stop work on the supers at that point?

Thanks!


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Correct. Backfilling the brood nest takes priority over storing upstairs. But if field nectar has been shut down, they can't get it done.

Walt


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

So feeding them sugar water should help with the backfilling if the nectar supply is gone.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Yes. But that's not easy either. Fall decends quickly in your area. Your colonies may have significant brood when fulltime clustering is appropriate. That complicates feeding. The colony can move feed at temps below cluster-breaking temps - they can crawl when they can't fly. The trick is to take advantage of cluster heat rise to warm the feed and the path to it. That's why feeding above the inner cover vent is successful, and division board feeding less so. If your early winter cluster peak reaches to the inner cover, so much the better.

You and I may be the only two folks following this thread to this point, but this stuff is applicable to a wide range of northern beeks.

Walt


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## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

I just got back from another business trip and am playing catch-up, but I'm following it.

Bill


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## PerryBee (Dec 3, 2007)

I have been following with interest.
I typically feed with 1.5 gallon plastic pail feeders over the inner covers. This spring with the big swing in day/night temps some of my pails leaked syrup all over the inner covers so I'm not sure if I want to continue this. I tried fondant over the inner cover holes last winter and had great success (10 for 10).
I have 10-12 gallons of honey (2008) that I want to feed back once I finish pulling this years crop. This was honey that came from brood chambers (could have meds in it) and some that was too high in moisture content that I froze. Can this be diluted (or should it) and be fed back in the pail feeders? How much water should I dilute it with, say 10 % ? 
I also have a couple of hives that were broodless for an extended period, no queen or brood at all. They appear to be quite happy having filled the brood chambers completely (bottom box chock full of pollen?) and have even filled a honey super as well. I am puzzled as to why they are calm with absolutely no evidence of brood, laying workers or anything. I took a couple of nucs I had in the wings and combined them with these hives yesterday as I'm sure the populations will start to plummet soon.
I am realizing there is more to learn in the way bees arrange their stores than I first imagined. Thanks

Perry


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## BonnieBee (Jul 29, 2007)

Kurt S said:


> Is there a general rule of thumb of how much a frame should be capped before it should be considered harvestable?


The figure I've always heard was 80% capped.
But what does that actually mean???
To me, what it means is 80% as a whole. What I mean by that is, let's say you have one frame that one side is capped wall-to-wall but the other side is 60% capped. As a whole the frame is 80% capped.
Let's take it a little further. You have two frames, one is capped wall-to-wall on both sides and the other is 90% on one side and 70% on the other.
As a whole what's the % capped?
90%


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

wcubed said:


> If your early winter cluster peak reaches to the inner cover, so much the better.


I was following you till this comment. I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. I thought they'd be in the bottom box if there was food there.


> You and I may be the only two folks following this thread to this point, but this stuff is applicable to a wide range of northern beeks.
> 
> Walt


I appreciate the info you are providing here. 
I was thinking the same thing, this is good info that could get missed.......

Thanks!!


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Typically, you would be opening the colony on a mild day. The loose cluster, actually concentrated bees, might appear to the top of the upper deep. When the temp drops, that cluster contracts, and might not be obvious from the top. It's not uncommon in late fall to appear to have two full deeps of bees, but they will lose a great part of the fall foragers in early winter. Did that help?

Walt


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## Kurt S (Jul 20, 2007)

Yes, now I understand what you were saying. 

Thanks!
Kurt


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