# When should my tf hive die out if it's going to die?



## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

I have what looks to be a healthy, albeit slow moving hive (Italian wildflower meadows queen) that I got back in April queenless. I have never treated it, I did two powdered sugar rolls in early summer which I posted about. Second time, no mite drop. I know it's not extremely accurate... but it's all I really had to go on. They had deformed wing issues the second week I had them. Nothing since.

I think they are either tolerating their mite load and slowly moving forward, working on brooding up now. This is why:
Here in orange county CA, it's been like Seattle for a month. Lots of rain, like twice or three times a week. I think 25% of California is officially out of the drought now. Anyway that means grass everywhere, clover is taking over, sudden onset of spring and flowers in every vacant lot, roadside and forgotten lawn. 
Yes, it's basically spring. Tons of pollen going into this hive now. Lots of activity, checked it today, lots of honey, queen still good to go, clearly looking for room to lay up top in some empty comb adjacent the honey.

Anyway, when will they die out if they are going to do it or are they in the clear? The numbers seem unchanged since September.

Also, I got a new hive from my 83 year old mentor, it was a cutout from a sprinkler box on the highway last month the 13th... these bees take steroids. They have completely filled every empty space in their five frames where I rubber banded odd shaped comb, they even built a completely new, independent comb in between frames where there was some space, almost the size of an entire deep frame full of new comb with capped brood and honey. This new comb extended halfway into the upper box. Oh and I had one medium frame for trapping drone brood in there on which they had built the entire new comb underneath. Absolutely astonishing. I had them in a five frame nuc because in my head I figured the colony would be small when I got it, Wrong. I stacked another nuc box on top until i could transfer them to the 8 frame deep and a medium today. This cutout is going to be Bigger than my original hive in a month, already more bees. They move like nothing I've seen, so fast I can't focus on a single bee for more than 2 seconds. They fly top speed right to the landing board. They take off the moment they clear the opening. I am really excited and impressed by this new hive.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

hey nc! i've been wondering about how your bees were doing. when you say the queen is 'good to go' does that mean you are seeing eggs and brood? if not and if the cut out colony is brooding like crazy but there aren't even eggs in the other one i would be concerned about the queen. if that's the case consider giving your original colony a frame of brood with some eggs and young larvae and see what happens. if you do have eggs and brood in the original colony then no worries, they'll build up with that kind of forage coming in.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

She is doing well, eggs, brood, capped brood, good pattern.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

then i think it's safe to say that your tf hive isn't going to die anytime soon. way to go!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Your feral hive sounds like they might have a bit of AHB in the mix. Keep an eye on them as they grow. No idea what they're like in OC, just throwing that out there.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

diymom; Watch the new hive closely, remember you are in an Africanized Honey Bee area. In my area, most treatment free colonies that are not split or allowed to swarm will die from BPMS late in their second year, or in July or August after their third spring nectar flow. The adult bees often start looking shabby and the brood pattern poor. The viruses the mite give the bee can cause premature queen failure at any time.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

AR Beekeeper said:


> diymom; Watch the new hive closely, remember you are in an Africanized Honey Bee area. In my area, most treatment free colonies that are not split or allowed to swarm will die from BPMS late in their second year, or in July or August after their third spring nectar flow. The adult bees often start looking shabby and the brood pattern poor. The viruses the mite give the bee can cause premature queen failure at any time.


Hey ARB, how many beeks are in your surroundings and what stock are you using? I'm curious as I haven't had that experience yet. Not saying it won't happen, but starting year 4 with 12/12 overwintering thus far. I realize it's still early in the game. 3 of 3 original hives are still some of my best looking colonies. I had a dicey looking hive from an unrelated queen in September of this year, what I tgought was the onset of PMS, but as of now they appear to be pulling through. It may just be a difference in colony size, as I don't have anything larger than what would fill a 4' TBH 75% full of comb at the moment and generally split once they get to this point.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I find that if they can make it to March then they'll make it. March 21 is spring equinox, bees doing good then will do well. A slow colony can be from mite loads over winter. A fresh queen can help kick them back into high gear. You might consider moving the queen into a nuc to make a split off the slow hive. The hive will go through a broodless period and make a new queen. Once the new queen starts laying it should kick off into high gear pretty fast and make a great summer colony. I would consider doing this around middle March.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If they have high mite load now then the hive may just pick up and leave.
They don't have to die when the queen is smart enough to find them a new location somewhere with a
fresh start. I know that when there are high mite levels inside without a treatment method they can leave at
full build up time around May. Reminds me of the you tube vid of an African queen trying to find a greener pasture over
the other side of the mountain while avoiding the yearly summer dearth. So she finally decided to take the long harsh journey.
This issue has not happen to me yet. Maybe one day it will here.


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

Forgive my ignorance, but I have a question for TF beeks. When you come across a colony with usual desirable traits what do you do to promote their genetics. Let's say you have a hive of feral collected bees, and they flourish. But not only flourish, they have other desirable traits and are easy to work with, not overly aggressive. What do you do?

Do TF beeks practice instrumental insemination to try to expand the line, gathering both sperm and inseminating queens, or do they just let nature take it's course? Are there any universities doing genetic surveys of survivor colonies? 

Mutation happens in nature. It'd be shame for someone named LeRoy to come across a truly superior genetic expression, and just comment on it. Just some thoughts from someone trying to learn.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Nordak; I have a commercial beekeeper that has around 200 colonies within 2.5 to 3 miles of my home, and 2 or 3 hobbyist within the same distance. The stock I use are a mixed up bunch of bees, some are lines from Buckfast X Russians that have been allowed to have supersedure queens, these are from a Bond Yard I have, some from Minnesota Hygienic lines, and a few are generic Italians.

I have had queens with very good traits, but I find it is almost impossible to not lose those traits after 1 or 2 generations. I find I have to use chemical treatments every 3 or 4 years to prevent heavy loss over winter. Usually varroa mites are not out of control if I am diligent in using shook swarms combined with drone brood removal/powdered sugar dusting. Varroa numbers usually are high, but colony losses are in the 10% range or less. Losses in my five frame nucs run as high as 30%.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

AR Beekeeper said:


> Losses in my five frame nucs run as high as 30%.


Thanks ARB. I find this interesting. Do you have a theory why by comparison to your larger colonies the nucs have higher losses?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Nordak; Yes, I have a theory. My theory is that 90% of my losses are caused by sloppy beekeeping. I fail to properly monitor the varroa level in the smaller nucs, I fail to identify failing queens, I fail to feed the nucs up to the poundage they should have for winter, I try to take the "shortcut" instead of doing the management the way I know it should be done. I try to keep more bees than I am able to properly manage and care for. I often just make foolish decisions to try and see if the nuc/colony can survive varroa numbers that I know should kill the colony, and it usually does. I foolishly view a nuc as expendable.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I can see where the numbers could outgrow one's ability to give them the attention they need. I'm worried about that very thing myself, and expect when or if that day comes, I'd have similar or worse losses. Seems like you're doing very well to me for what it's worth. I've got about 1/5 the hive count of what you're looking after and it amazes me how anyone has the time for that many colonies. I'm looking to get to that point some point in the future but nowhere near ready yet time or resource wise.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

AR Beekeeper said:


> diymom; Watch the new hive closely, remember you are in an Africanized Honey Bee area. In my area, most treatment free colonies that are not split or allowed to swarm will die from BPMS late in their second year, or in July or August after their third spring nectar flow. The adult bees often start looking shabby and the brood pattern poor. The viruses the mite give the bee can cause premature queen failure at any time.


Thank you, this is what I was hoping to find out, I knew it may take longer than a year from the first swarm stage to die out, but I thought it could be a year and I wanted to celebrate being in the clear. Now I can watch and plan and possibly intervene via a split.

Can I split the slow hive and insert brood and eggs from fast hive to get a queen with fast build bee genes? Will they accept those eggs? Or is it better to duplicate the slow build queen to see if it was a mite overload in the slow hive? 

I also wanted to ensure i would be able to harvest honey this fall so I was wary of splitting a hive. Will my fast build colony recoup and grow fast enough to produce honey I can harvest if i split in early May?
I do want to keep these genetics and I want to prevent swarming so I am open to splitting, will making a nuc be a better option?
Ideally I want only two hives at my house and no more than 6 in my satellite apiary.
I can't believe after less than a year of beekeeping, I have a second apiary and am planning for a total of 8 hives.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

there may be some differences between california, arkansas, and alabama but...

in my view the fast growing colony is a prime candidate for swarming. if i had it, and liked its traits, and wanted a daughter colony from it...

as soon as i had drones flying here i would split out the queen, a frame or two of brood, and a frame or two with honey and pollen and make up a 3 or 4 frame queenright split. move this split to your outyard.

you have to make sure there are eggs and/or just hatched larvae left in the parent hive and leave it at the original location. you want to leave the parent hive good and strong so that they can make good queen cells. you can check after about a week to make sure.

in alabama, and if this was done by late march or early april, and in a normal year, both the parent and the daughter colonies would likely produce some harvestable honey.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

That's a good idea to move the split with queen to my other location. I do want to babysit it though and it's not going to be easy with it being so far away. I have a busy life and two toddler boys and making a trip down there for the day can mean driving for 6 hours in traffic if I time it wrong. Not fun. I may do a weekend trip to babysit the split or go down two days in a week. But then we are talking extra gas $$. 
I don't want to push this colony too much too often, I have already manipulated the hive body three times and changed location a few feet once and need to relocate the hive body one more time to get it into my garden. They need a break from interference.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the reason for moving it is the foragers are going to go back to the parent hive. i have left the queenright split at the same yard on occasion, and when i did i shook extra nurse bees into it to compensate for the foragers returning to the parent hive. mostly what moving the split to another yard does is make it easier to have the number of bees you want in the smaller split to start with, but it will work either way.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

DIY Mom - if you split off the old queen - you can just leave it in the same yard - the old bees will leave a queen less nuc but will stay with the old queen. They thank they swarmed


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