# 7-8 lbs pollen/sugar patty



## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

when a person puts on such a large amount of this dry feed is there much need for liquid feed? 
Seems like its a bit of over kill

how much pollen supplement do you use on your hives?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

MNB, first are you calling dry feed in patty form or dust, and your second question of how much, thats an economic one, what I ask my costomers is what's your end game? Do you have a place or a need for big bees? There are some that feed heavy and shake bees all month of april, then there are comstomers that feed one 4 pound round take them to the almonds then to the apples in WA then home to ND so they dont want major swarming issues. It really all depends on your program, there is no one size that fits all.


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

Yes i realize its all about a persons program. Not only ones program but also location and finances. As well as work ethic.

what i want to know is when you feed that 7-8 lb brown mix of protein and carbohydrates all winter do you use allot less liquid feed? 

i was wanting some in put from others and what they do on a large scale?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

MNbees said:


> what i want to know is when you feed that 7-8 lb brown mix of protein and carbohydrates all winter do you use allot less liquid feed?


No, the hive will consume more stores.


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

well what waste of money!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> No, the hive will consume more stores.


Not always!!!!!! My experience says the answer varies. Sub is used to build bees. If it builds bees correctly you should have more mouth to feeds. If the bees are in a yard that has a dearth of nectar they will need more feed as Keith mentioned. There is another experience though. We have yards in places that on some years the winter flowers arrive and the warm weather cranks up the nectaries. In these yards the "more mouths" means more foragers. More foragers in the correct weather conditions can fill a hive with additional weight. In those yards I watch the weather as well as the hive weight in making decisions regarding a feed routine.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

MNbees said:


> well what waste of money!


Say what??????? how did you come to that conclusion???


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

If you promote brood production with a pollen sub then you better not be far off with the syrup truck. To me it's no different than in the spring when pollen is flowing in but no nectar. The feeding of the brood is what needs the carbs not the extra adult bees so much.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

MNbees said:


> well what waste of money!


Well maybe not, we shake bees before the almonds @ $30lb & after the almonds @ $10lb sub is $1.19lb, so if you shake pre almonds 2-3000lb x $30= $90,000 then shake 15-30 thousand @ $10lb after almond = xzy well you get the picture.

P.S. as the commercial goes....what's in your wallet.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well maybe not, we shake bees before the almonds @ $30lb & after the almonds @ $10lb sub is $1.19lb, so if you shake pre almonds 2-3000lb x $30= $90,000 then shake 15-30 thousand @ $10lb after almond = xzy well you get the picture.
> 
> P.S. as the commercial goes....what's in your wallet.



Thirty bucks before the almonds. Thats almost better than the Aussie's are "doing" the Canadians for when May arrives in the far north. Thats how you got so $$$$ rich. Next year sign me up for enough sub to fill a former President's engorged ego. Oops! What I really meant to say is "enough sub to fill my back forty with an acre foot minimally. " I'll be making so much dough even the Fed will be coming to me for a loan. WOW!


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Keith,

This reminds me of the thread I think Harry started. Was it “easy money”? Any time we “push” bees to get increased productivity, there are a lot of costs associated with it. Nothing is free.

I think beekeepers see a lot of $$$ when they hear $30 a pound for bees, BUT… There is a labor cost, feed cost, queen cost (need fresh young queens to lay lots of eggs) and many other inputs. Would you be willing to share your estimated cost to produce a pound of the early bulk bees?

Thanks,
Joe


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## sjvbee (Dec 27, 2006)

I would love to feed 7-8# patty. If I did half of it would be hive beetles. So 1# every 10 days.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JSL said:


> Keith,
> 
> This reminds me of the thread I think Harry started. Was it “easy money”? Any time we “push” bees to get increased productivity, there are a lot of costs associated with it. Nothing is free.
> Joe


Very well said Joe.

Yeah know Joe if almonds & honey prices were in the tank this would not work. We feed alot, we are feeding today Sunday, we do what the bees need on there schedule we keepers come second. If you set up for mass feeding it's not so bad, when we feed we feed, 5-10lbs at a time is normal, NEVER will you get me out of the truck to feed 2 or 3lbs at a time.

We look at it like this, honey crop is a one big IF, almonds that need pollinating.... money in the bank. beekeepers that need to boost there hives before almonds.... well, you get the picture.  

feed, labor, & extra queen costs somwhere around $50 per hive.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keith, you remind me a bit of ourselves how we manage our cattle herd. 
We believe that well properly fed cattle not only perform better but also handle disease better. Does that sound like a stretch? LOL. We constantly preich our herd health practices most of the time to deaf ears. Those deaf ears are penny pinchers and they are always the ones who end up having wrecks on a yearly basis. 
Few producers follow our philosophy and have reaped the benifet making them that 10-15% more on their cheques every year. That and lower production losses throughout the year. Guys who know what they are doing get the cattle what they need and know how to do it without over feeding and wasting money.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> feed, labor, & extra queen costs somwhere around $50 per hive.


You forgot to mention the sore back. I personally have seen you so sore from sub that I thought you were trying to outdo the hunchback of Notre Dame. Then Again maybe it was all those thirty dollar gold pieces in your coat pocket weighing you down. Its all work!!!!!!!!


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Thanks Keith.

Ian, that is not a stretch. It is well documented in other animal industries that with the right genetics, nutrition and environmental conditions animals are better able to withstand disease pressures. We are starting to see this research in honey bees too. But, there are still beekeepers that think commercial honey bees are wild and should be able to gather their own resources, even in a commercial setting with thousands of hives in a given area.

Joe


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

We live by the rule for many years now that one may need to spend $.95 cents to make a dollar & have found that the $.95 cents spent will be paid back many times over more so than not. 
Not only on bee feed & meds but the the entire business!!
I am still one who can sneak $.12 cents out of a dime when need be but I see to many folks now days cutting corners in the strangest places!
Had a professor many years ago teach that " The cost of business is multiplied by the cost of doing business "


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

I leave tomorrow for Florida. We have been feeding HFCS for the last several weeks. This week, we will put on 4lbs of sub per colony of Ultra Bee and again feed HFCS. We equalized just before we began feeding. Colonies look good except for a few losses to Ants even though we had a less than stellar pepper flow.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ian said:


> We believe that well properly fed cattle not only perform better but also handle disease better. Does that sound like a stretch? LOL. We constantly preich our herd health practices most of the time to deaf ears. Those deaf ears are penny pinchers and they are always the ones who end up having wrecks on a yearly basis.


Well said Ian, It's kind of like what H4A said, sub & sore backs go hand in hand. I don't think any of us got into this business just to make a pay check, after a while it becomes a passion, it's why you go to work in the morning, if you don't have a great passion about what your doing, bees can be a very tough business.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Another emerging aspect of this discussion is the effect of additional sub feeding on colony nosema levels.
Recently, I met with a number of Oregon commercial beekeepers when one of them announced that he had not used fumigillian in 5 years.
Instead, he has taken the money saved and a bit more and shoved additional pollen sub down their throats.
He is very happy with the results.
And the benefits extend beyond just the nosema levels.
This is a long established and well known 6000 hive operation.
Listening to him was interesting because I recall Randy Oliver talking about the effect of just moving additional material through the bees midgut on nosema levels.
Have any of you employed such a regimin or know of another beekeeper who has?
I'm kind of interested.
But I make changes SLOWLY. I'm not a bandwagon type.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Have any of you employed such a regimin or know of another beekeeper who has?
> I'm kind of interested..


Harry, there has been much discussion on that topic, maybe in the archives. Yes we don't feed fumigilian.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Another emerging aspect of this discussion is the effect of additional sub feeding on colony nosema levels.
> Recently, I met with a number of Oregon commercial beekeepers when one of them announced that he had not used fumigillian in 5 years.
> Listening to him was interesting because I recall Randy Oliver talking about the effect of just moving additional material through the bees midgut on nosema levels.
> Have any of you employed such a regimin or know of another beekeeper who has?



Unless my dementia is greater than I remember I do recall this is just a repeat of the sermon series that Keith was preaching at the church of the healthy bee over 10 years ago. Please correct me if I'm wrong!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Another emerging aspect of this discussion is the effect of additional sub feeding on colony nosema levels..


Hey Harry, did I mention we add a micro flora builder in our sub, this is to counter act Nosema. You've been on that blue hot rod to long.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

O.K. I'll take my whipping; I'm behind on this.
Very interested in hearing more!


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## azbees (Jul 23, 2011)

Keith, I'm fairly new at this but would you consider your micro flora a probotic? and how would u go about researching which micro flora to use, aren't there many kinds?


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## borada bee doc (Feb 6, 2010)

Who has identified the microflora beneficial to bees? My sons added microflora to the subs this summer. Just started the mortar mixer mid-morning during the dearth and all the "home-bees" landed in the mix. 300 lbs. of subs and bees. Didn't trust that we weren't adding nosema cerana microflora to the bees so gave it all to another beek who wasn't as concerned and his bees did great.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I look at it more of an insurance, it will benefit some bees but not all, if you don't have detectable nosema you really have nothing to worry about and a probiotic helps keep it that way.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

azbees;1025426 and how would u go about researching which micro flora to use said:


> Yes, there are many kinds.... thats an understatment lol. It pretty much ends up with time & money spent, there really no way around it. Basically it's a preventative measure. Keeping bees heathy starts LONG before they get ill, always be out in front of your problems two or three months.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Is Nutra-Bee available in Canada ? I would get some if it was. I want a good sub for my bees


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