# has anyone ever heard of using compresed gas to calm or sedate bees



## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

What gas was used?


----------



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

toadfish said:


> i was told by a customer that a bee remover in Arizona used gas to sedate bees and remove them just wondering if anyone ever heard of using compresed gas to calm or sedate bees


CO2 will cause bees to go to sleep. They use it down in S.A. to work the hives of AHB . Give them a dose and they sleep for about 5 min or so.


----------



## toadfish (Jul 22, 2013)

WBVC said:


> What gas was used?


i have no idea. nitrous No2 would be explosive!!!


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Burning ammonium nitrate fertilizer in your smoker knocks out bees for about five minutes.


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

We used about $200 worth of C02 making up mating nucs this spring. Happy bees!!!!!!!!!


----------



## WilMorris (May 15, 2013)

drlonzo said:


> CO2 will cause bees to go to sleep. They use it down in S.A. to work the hives of AHB . Give them a dose and they sleep for about 5 min or so.


I thought CO2 kills them. I saw somewhere on the interwebs a "bee removal" company that kills them with CO2 gas and then removes the comb. Their big sales pitch was that they kill the bees without leaving behind dangerous pesticides that kill bees :scratch:


----------



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

WilMorris said:


> I thought CO2 kills them. I saw somewhere on the interwebs a "bee removal" company that kills them with CO2 gas and then removes the comb. Their big sales pitch was that they kill the bees without leaving behind dangerous pesticides that kill bees :scratch:


I did some reading and found that out. But here's a video of the S.A. beekeepers having done this and working with the bees.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

odfrank said:


> Burning ammonium nitrate fertilizer in your smoker knocks out bees for about five minutes.


Ammonium nitrate can knock out lots of things. If inhaled, it can knock out a person. It can knock out buildings, remember the Murrah Federal Building. It can knock out plants if too much is used on them. 

cchoganjr


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

odfrank said:


> Burning ammonium nitrate fertilizer in your smoker knocks out bees for about five minutes.


How do u happen to know that?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WilMorris said:


> I thought CO2 kills them.


Commonly used to anesthitise virgin queens prior to and during Instrumental Insemination. Properly dosed.


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I've used ammonium nitrate several times to introduce queens, mainly virgins. It's only explosive in large quantities and under pressure with fire. It does burn hot so you have to be careful when smoking bees with it not to burn them [did that once and melted a styro nuc]. Bees sleep for about 5 minutes. A couple of queen breeders use it to make up mating nucs. Search utube for video.


----------



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Ammonium nitrate can knock out lots of things. If inhaled, it can knock out a person. It can knock out buildings, remember the Murrah Federal Building. It can knock out plants if too much is used on them.
> 
> cchoganjr


Yes it can knock out buildings, but it has to be mixed with desiel fuel and have a large charge put to it first. lol.. Not sure about the other applications but the plants being fertilized though.. Never heard of the other uses..


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

My remarks were meant to be a joke to Odfrank, about different things that happen when you use ammonium nitrate. Please don't take them seriously when talking about putting bees to sleep. I have never tried it, but, if Odfrank says it will put them to sleep, I will take it at face value. 

Of course I know it takes other measures to make it explode, it takes larger quantities to burn or kill plants rather than fertilize them. However, in all seriousness, ammonium nitrate is not something to play with. There are lots of good uses and there are a lot of ways to use it illegally.

cchoganjr


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Requeening mean bees with Ammonium nitrate - Get a few table spoons from a local wholesale nursery or farmer or terrorist. Have a new caged queen, division screen and drone guard (entrance queen excluder) ready. Light the smoker, drop in a tea spoon of ammonium nitrate, don't inhale the smoke as it will blast out of the smoker. Fumigate the hive with the blasting smoke. The bees will fall unconscious. Shake them onto a sheet in front of the hive. Place all the brood in the upper brood chamber. They will awake from their stupor and walk back into the hive, the queen being found on the entrance excluder. After an hour or two divide the hive introducing the new queen above the division screen into the box containing the brood. These mean bees will kill the new queen if you try a direct introduction. The division screens sends the old mean bees back to the box down below, young bees above to accept the new queen. Either squish the old queen, or mark her and run her back into the bottom. You will then have to find her and squish her after the new queen up above is accepted, then merging the boxes. 

I did dozens of mean hives in the '70s using this method, works great.


----------



## Sonoramic413 (Aug 10, 2013)

drlonzo said:


> Yes it can knock out buildings, but it has to be mixed with desiel fuel and have a large charge put to it first. lol.. Not sure about the other applications but the plants being fertilized though.. Never heard of the other uses..


There was no diesel or charge in the West, Tx fertilizer plant explosion last year..


----------



## Sonoramic413 (Aug 10, 2013)

ODFrank- interesting! 
Do/did you have to use a dedicated smoker or clean out the used smoker before reusing ?


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Sonoramic413 said:


> There was no diesel or charge in the West, Tx fertilizer plant explosion last year..


Like I said, Ammonium nitrate is not something to play with, unless you know what you are doing.

cchoganjr


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Way overblown comment. Many beekeepers, including myself, use it without problems. It is the common fuel for fireworks. A few teaspoons will never explode. 

odfrank. I just put the queen cage on the top frames, smoke them, release the sleeping queen and put her on the top bars and close up the hive. I get about 85% success with mated queens and about 70% with virgins. Only one trip to the hive, come back in 3 weeks and combine the failures with another hive.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

camero7 said:


> Way overblown comment. It is the common fuel for fireworks. A few teaspoons will never explode..


Really??? I thought firecrackers explode. How many teaspoons are in a firecracker. Or better yet, how many firecrackers would you have to have to have a teaspoon.

cchoganjr


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"The division screens sends the old mean bees back to the box down below, young bees above to accept the new queen."
Odfrank, is the division screen a queen excluder? If so, are you saying that the queen excluder discourages the older bees from going into the upper brood box but not the nurse bees?


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Riverderwent said:


> "Odfrank, is the division screen a queen excluder? If so, are you saying that the queen excluder discourages the older bees from going into the upper brood box but not the nurse bees?


What I call a division board others call a double screen board. 

http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1454

This device has two screens separating the bees and an entrance for the box on the top. The older bees return to the original entrance when they forage, leaving only young bees above the screen.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Sonoramic413 said:


> ODFrank- interesting! Do/did you have to use a dedicated smoker or clean out the used smoker before reusing ?


NO, the AN burns away totally.


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

odfrank said:


> NO, the AN burns away totally.


Yep, but it is hard on smokers. I use a cheap one for AN


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

camero7 said:


> Yep, but it is hard on smokers. I use a cheap one for AN


I did not notice that at the time, but we only did a few dozen hives at a few yards.


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> I thought firecrackers explode


Firecrackers are made with black powder. Rockets have AN for fuel much of the time.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

camero7...Which is it??? IN post #19 you wrote, quote,"it is the common fuel for fireworks. A few teaspoons will never explode" unquote.. (the IT is talking about ammouium nitrate,... 

In post # 26 you say firecrackers are made with black powder.. I agree. I have never heard of ammonium nitrate being used in firecrackers.


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

AN is used in fireworks - you know those beautiful rockets that you see on the 4th. AN burns at a controlled rate and has some color when it burns with other additives. I don't consider firecrackers fireworks.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

camero7... THANKS. Clears it up.

cchoganjr


----------



## oldfordguy (Dec 5, 2009)

toadfish said:


> nitrous No2 would be explosive!!!


Nitrous (oxide, N2O) is in no way explosive. It is used in internal combustion engines as an oxidizer to allow them to burn more fuel to create more power, but will not burn on its own. NO2 is nitrogen dioxide. It is also non-combustible, but will also serve as an oxidizer in combination with another fuel.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

oldfordguy... nitrous oxide in and of itself will not explode, (however it is a compressed gas), When exposed to heat in the 338 degree F to 464 dregree F range, nitrous oxide is a moderately sensitive explosive and a very strong oxidizer. 

Nitrous oxide is normally made by controlled heating of ammonium nitrate. That is the subject being discussed here. Putting ammonium nitrate in a bee smoker and lighting it to put bees asleep. At the 338 degree F to 464 degree F the heating of ammonium nitrate decomposes into nitrous oxide and water vapor. In the manufacturing of nitrous oxide, the burning of ammonium nitrate must be cooled to avoid explosions. In using it in a bee smoker there is little way of cooling. I doubt that most bee smoker fuels would reach 464 degrees F, but if the temperate does exceed 464 degrees F, explosions can occur.

That is the reason for my post (I think it was # 18) that said ammonium nitrate is not something to be played with especially when heated, or burned. My suggestion would be, be very careful. Small amounts, and do not breath vapors.

cchoganjr


----------



## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

To anesthetize bees I sometimes use a fungi. It is the Giant puffball/Calvatia gigantea fungus. It is the traditional way to sedate bees.

This is the fungus:









The fungus gets dried first. You use just a little piece of it in a smoker. 









Within seconds the whole hive drops to the floor









You need to spread out the anesthetized bees to prevent them suffocating.









You can overdo it and they die. Usually they all wake up after 20 minutes. Very litte losses. Do not inhale the smoke, the smoke is not safe for humans.

Bees forget where their home is and stay where you put them after the sedation.

Must not be used by beekeeping beginners. (!)


----------



## oldfordguy (Dec 5, 2009)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> oldfordguy... nitrous oxide in and of itself will not explode


That's what I said, glad you agree with me. 

Explosions only occur with the high temperatures in the manufacture of Nitrous Oxide because of impurities in the ammonium nitrate that serve as a "fuel" to combust in the oxygen rich environment. That being said, in a smoker, you have plenty of fuel/impurities, so I would consider this a volatile mixture and worthy of care. Oh, and it's only a compressed gas if you compress it.

Ammonium nitrate is never something to be careless with. I have used it in the past as a component for making rocket fuel for model rockets and fireworks, and am well aware of the dangers it can pose. 

And since you brought up breathing it, let's also keep in mind that dentists frequently use chemically pure Nitrous Oxide as an anesthetic; having their patients breath the "laughing gas." Nitrous Oxide isn't the danger in itself; it's the impurities that are often associated with it.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

oldfordguy said:


> That's what I said, glad you agree with me.


I do indeed agree with you. 

I share your concern about the possible careless use of ammonium nitrate. My only concern about this thread, was, if someone mishandled ammonium nitrate by breathing or burning. Most compounds containing ammonium are a health hazard if you breathe the vapors. Ammonium nitrate falls into this category.

We are on the same page, and, I am happy to agree with you, and let others be aware of the possible dangers. If you know what you are doing, and take simple precautions, no problems. I just did not want to see someone dump a bunch of ammonium nitrate into a smoker, light it, possibly breath the vapors etc. That is the whole reason for my post. Safety first.

Thanks.

cchoganjr


----------



## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> To anesthetize bees I sometimes use a fungi. It is the Giant puffball/Calvatia gigantea fungus. It is the traditional way to sedate bees.
> 
> You can overdo it and they die. Usually they all wake up after 20 minutes. Very litte losses. Do not inhale the smoke, the smoke is not safe for humans.
> 
> Must not be used by beekeeping beginners. (!)


This might work but not sure it is wise to post it here. Most folk know nothing of fungus and even some that do, don't know what they are talking about. And if it is toxic, do we really need to post it. Just something to think about.


----------

