# To screen or not to screen?



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Hi, I posted last fall and got some useful opinions about starting as a newbie. I plan to start building a TBH with sloped sides, and 16 inch bars within the week. However, I wonder what the prevailing wisdom is around screening the bottom for varroa purposes? Is it necessary? Miki's site has a thought provoking article which suggests it's not; Or is an alternative design which lets the beek clean out the bottom in the spring, perhaps by a flap, a good idea? Adrian


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## blkcloud (May 25, 2005)

I have 1 tbh and it has a sbb..no problems here..


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think it's your call. But I haven't found them necessary. The bees seem to be able to ventilate it well enough without it and I'm afraid that large of a bottom would be too drafty without a "tray". I have several with and without and I use a tray on the ones with. Both work fine.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Most of mine have SBBs but I don't think it is 'necessary'. However, the picture of mites falling off and becoming ant food is a good one...

I have noticed one potential downside of SBBs - one of my colonies seems to regard the open mesh floor as 'outside' and don't bother to remove dead bees from the floor. Once, I even caught one 'undertaker' bee trying to stuff her dead colleague through one of the gaps in the mesh! Clearly, there could be a hygiene problem here.


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## mistergil (May 24, 2007)

My Tanzanians are solid bottoms, 12" deep. Even at this depth they occasionally will fasten comb to the bottom board. This would be my only concern with movable or screened ones. So far I haven't found screens necessary but I did suffer some collapse in one unit last season during a very hot spell which more ventilation may have prevented.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I did suffer some collapse in one unit last season during a very hot spell which more ventilation may have prevented.

Since the bees actually COOL the hive in hot weather, I'm not sure more ventilation will help. To much and the temps inside reach the temps outside instead of staying BELOW the temps outside.


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## mistergil (May 24, 2007)

Good point. I used wood covers which were painted green and recovered them in reflective aluminum which seems to have helped as there was no more collapse after that.


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## bigeddie (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael Bush said:


> I think it's your call. But I haven't found them necessary. The bees seem to be able to ventilate it well enough without it and I'm afraid that large of a bottom would be too drafty without a "tray". I have several with and without and I use a tray on the ones with. Both work fine.


 I'm thinking it's also to cold in winter here for screen bottoms. Here in N. Wi. we had lots of 20 to 40 below this winter. What would you do to tbh to prep for winter in this climate? I've never had a tbh before but am going to try one as well as a D.E.hive. I have always used lang. equip. but think there are better ways.

Michael, I respect your opinion.

Eddie


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What would you do to tbh to prep for winter in this climate? I've never had a tbh before but am going to try one as well as a D.E.hive. I have always used lang. equip. but think there are better ways

From my web site:
"Question: Some people say that TBH's don't winter well in cold climates. Do they?

"Answer: I have them in Nebraska and others have them places as cold as Casper Wyoming. I have heard NO reports from anyone keeping bees in top bar hives that they don't overwinter well in cold climates. I have only heard it from people who have not attempted it. It is a good plan to get the cluster to one end at the beginning of winter so they can work their way to the other end over winter. If they are in the middle they may work their way to one end and starve with stores at the other end. The bigger problems are having top bar hives in very HOT climates and yet people seem to do that as well. I have the most problems on the over a hundred degree F days when I have comb collapses. "

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm

As far as the DE:

Here's what I like about the DE hive:

o It has good ventilation (but you can use the Langstroth kit to provide this for your Langstroth hive)

o It has the frames running so you can stand behind it to work it. (but you can get this in a Langstroth by using the kit or by making your own top and bottom and turning the hive)

o It has a system that almost eliminates having to break frames loose. This keeps the bees calmer, especially when working the brood chamber. (this you cannot get by using the Langstroth kit)

o It is nice dimensions from the bee's perspective. It's a square box and has 11 frames that the queens fills out nicely. (this you cannot get from a standard Langstroth hive)

o The frame design is very light, very strong and very good at keeping the foundation straight in the frame. I wish I could get such well designed frames for a Langstroth. There is a slot in the sides to hold the edge of the foundation.

o The DE frames are really light to handle.

o The DE frames are dimensions such that you almost never have to use a capping scratcher.

o The long end bars are really nice for handling the frames, especially when you're extracting but also when you're working a hive.


What I don't like about the DE hive:

o My biggest irritation is that it is not a standard size. This is no end of frustration when you see something really useful, but it won't work with them. Like a nice triangular bee escape or a top feeder or a bound queen excluder. I get around it a lot by building things that are universal. e.g. a bottom board with 1 1/2" edges instead of 3/4" that is sized long enough for a Lang. I can put either a Langstroth or a DE on it. I built several adapters and often mix the DE supers and Langstroths. Also since it's not standard I can't buy stuff already assembled when I'm short of supers or hives and don't have time to build them.

o There's this space around the ends of the top bars, that the bees can't get to when the hive is closed. The purpose is to keep the bees from propolizing the ends of the bars. My problem with them is the bees run into them when I have the hive open and I can't get them out. Shades of the Arizona, they get trapped in there when I put the covers back on or a super on.

o I did have to modify my extractor to fit them. Maybe some wouldn't but the top part of the rack was spaced too far, so I had to get three threaded rods and replace the ones that came with the extractor. Now it works for either DE's or Langstroths.

o The long end bars (which are so nice to handle) stick down more so you can't have as much honey in the tank before they hit the honey and bog down the motor.

o It takes practice to not knock off the little plastic spacers on the ends of the bars when you're uncapping. It's kind of frustrating to be looking through a bunch of cappings for missing ones.

As you can see there's more I like than don't, but the big problem is the non-standard size. I had four and some spare parts and sold them all.


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## bigeddie (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael,thanks for the reply.

I tend to agree with your points. I have the D.E. assembled and like it alot.I'm going to have to build my own if I decide to go with more as they are not cheap, boxes ,tops ect. should be easy to make and just buy frames,foundation and spacers.

I've read alot of your posts as well as your web site and like your common sense bee keeping ideas. With the tbh do you think a honey harvest of any kind would be out of the question the first year if I install a 3# package? I've heard yes and no. Just trying to get a feel for doing things the tbh way. I'm sure it will be a big change from the way i'm used to doing things but i'm excited to try.

Thanks again!

Eddie


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>With the tbh do you think a honey harvest of any kind would be out of the question the first year if I install a 3# package? 

That depends on the bees. Some packages some years do well enough to harvest some honey the first year. But as a general rule I wouldn't expect it.


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## pcooley (Apr 18, 2006)

I have one large rectangular top bar hive with a screened bottom. The colony made it through the winter here in Northern New Mexico without my covering it in any way. (I think our coldest morning was around 3 degrees).

However, I don't notice that colony being any healthier than my other bees. I don't monitor or treat for mites, and I rarely see them on the bees. I just went through one of my hives and saw one mite on a drone, and that was it.

Maybe I'm just in a good location.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

pcooley said:


> However, I don't notice that colony being any healthier than my other bees.


How do you assess your colonies for health? By which I mean, what are your criteria for healthy bees?


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## pcooley (Apr 18, 2006)

buckbee said:


> How do you assess your colonies for health? By which I mean, what are your criteria for healthy bees?


My criteria is very loose -- they come out of the winter with a robust population and good brood pattern. I keep honeybees because I enjoy them, so I've never kept statistics on honey per hive or anything like that. I had one colony last year that requeened themselves three times, but I tend to think of them as ill-fated rather than unhealthy. They went into the winter with only nine combs, most only built halfway across the hive body -- I did add two full-width empty combs at one point in the summer. Traditionally, I should have killed the queen at the end of the summer and combined them with another hive, but I couldn't bring myself to kill the queen, (they had worked so hard all summer to arrive at one that would work out). I'm surprised to find them still going strong this spring, but I haven't opened the hive to inspect them. With a small population, I don't want to open them up to robbing, so I'm waiting until the main nectar flows start.

(I also haven't fed my bees any pollen or syrup since the first package arrived. It seems some people feed as a matter of course around here, but it doesn't seem to make any difference to my bees, so I don't do it. I trust them to know what they're doing, and I try to leave them plenty of honey in the Fall).


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Hi, I posted last fall and got some useful opinions about starting as a newbie. I plan to start building a TBH with sloped sides, and 16 inch bars within the week. However, I wonder what the prevailing wisdom is around screening the bottom for varroa purposes? Is it necessary? Miki's site has a thought provoking article which suggests it's not; Or is an alternative design which lets the beek clean out the bottom in the spring, perhaps by a flap, a good idea? Adrian


I am against SBB's as a ventilation device, I think they are an invaluable tool to monitor mite fall. Mite fall is one of the best ways to assess the condition, treatment needs and timing of a colony.


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