# economics of increase during a dearth



## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

It's viable but you'll have to watch robbing. I did this last year and all my splits got robbed out. All of them. Like dominoes; one after the other. That is, all the ones I made right at the end of the flow. The ones made during the flow were okay. This year I sacrificed the last three weeks of the flow to make splits, and barring a few queens not returning, they're fine and I'm going into my next phase: making mini nucs.

You could open feed to distract the massive colonies from the new splits, but that's a lot of work, too...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Sure, it is viable only if they are separated from the other big strong hives near by.
Separating them from the other hives is better to prevent any robbing. Also give them plenty of
food to build up.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Don't do anything to encourage robbing anywhere in the immediate area!


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## reidflys (Jan 14, 2011)

I did splits during dearth two years ago and lost all of the splits. I was trying to get honey and multiplying both.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Make big splits. Move to a different yard.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

Last year's dearth here was July/Aug, and not much happened following them, either. But that's when I made three colonies into 9 via splits with mated queens. Two rounds of purchased queens plus another home-grown one that surprised me by being there. [Lost one in the fall, dwindled away queenless. Perhaps it grew too much and swarmed, followed by replacement queen loss. Don't know.] Eight colonies going into "winter" here. But it worked for me with frame feeders and pollen patties. There are site-specific warnings for watching patties and patty fragments for invaders (moth/beetle larvae), depending upon what's in the vicinity and hungry.

So, depending upon your locale, it can be done. Not much forage here in summer proper, post-solstice. We fully expect to do similar nuc rearing this summer, and will keep syrup on them with small entrances, stacking up 5-frame boxes as needed, robbing them also as needed to prevent fall swarms.


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## physicsdude (Mar 6, 2015)

Thank you all for your replies. Probably going to try it. They will be pretty big splits.
Matt


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If you retain the foragers in the original hive location then your split can be bigger because the foragers will
make up the majority of the bee population. So even when the foragers returning you still have a bigger split in the split out hives. You don't have to move the split hives to another location. Simply make a bigger split and allow the foragers to return to their original hives. And don't forget to feed them too--patty and honey water. Yes, it can be done!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

If it was me, this is what I'd do, and it all gets done in one yard, no need for remote yard...

You have 16 hives, so will need 16 hive boxes with top and bottom boards and frames of foundation to fill. 

Put the frame with the queen on it in a new box, along with a frame of emerging sealed brood and a frame of drawn but empty cells comb. Put these in the center of the box and fill the rest with frames of foundation. Put your feeder in this box. Leave this box in place, and move the entire rest of the hive to a new stand, filling in the sides with 3 frames of foundation to replace the three you left in place with the queen.

The queen left in place has the drawn comb to continue laying in, and will get all of the foraging force who will start drawing the foundations for her to expand her brood nest. Keep the feeder going so you get all the combs drawn. This hive has the strength of the foragers and the laying queen so will not be robbed out very easily.

The queenless portion was moved to a new stand in the same yard, so loses foragers to the queen right portion left in place. It will have all younger bees and stores so don't put a feeder on it, as it's queenless and robbing will be a problem if you do. It will also have all of the brood, both young and old, which will be emerging over the next three weeks as the queen cells are made and the queen mates and starts laying, so lots of younger bees constantly emerging. 9 days after doing all this, check the queen cells in each moved hive, and split them up into two hives if you like, setting them side by side where it sits to retain foragers equally, or if not, remove the smaller cells and just keep a couple of the best that are close to each other to emerge. Check them again in 21 more days for laying queens.

The hive moved away needs to have stores of pollen and nectar before you make the splits, so feed the hives ahead of time if needed so that when you make the splits, no feeding is needed in the cell builder portions moved away.

The key is leaving the queen in place with open drawn comb so that she can continue laying and gets all the foragers with a feeder and they will draw a box of comb fairly quickly. Another key point is the rest of the hive moved away needs stores so they don't need feeding, this is important during a dearth. They will make enough cells and be strong enough to split in 2, 9-10 days after making the first split away from the main hive. You can triple your hive numbers this way in a month, getting comb drawn also. 

After all the splits now have laying queens, the original queens box will be fully drawn combs. From then to the end of the year, keep the hives equalized and drawing comb as needed, and get them into shape for the winter by the middle of November.

Good luck, let us know what you choose to do and how it works out.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So instead of letting them make their own queen on the splits, why not give them a mated queen? This way you
don't have to wait for a month to have a new queen in the newly split hives. An investment now will give you 3 folds the 
next season. It is a good investment if you ask me. A potential of a virgin missing in action is too much at this time.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Never feed a weak colony in a dearth. It is just an invitation to robbers. Feed a strong colony instead and then give full frames of stores and maybe a frame of sealed brood to the weak colony.

Otherwise, I agree with the general method Ray outlined. The only thing I would do different would be to leave 3 frames of brood and one empty frame with the old queens. I've had better results getting comb drawn when the parent hive has plenty of young bees.

It is a good idea to move the splits to a new location if you have a place available. This is especially true if the splits are expected to raise their own queen. I would make the splits and set them in the parent apiary for one day, then move them to the new location. Most of the foragers will return to the parent hive but maybe 10% will stay with the split. This will help the split get established and raise a healthy mated queen.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Beepro...
It's economics. In southern California there's still plenty of time to have them raise their own queens and build up to winter strength. Besides, home raised queens won't be going through the stress of shipping and may turn out better queens than purchased shipped in queens.

Fusion_power...
Ah yes, feeding a weak colony... But these won't be weak, they'll be strong with an active laying queen and all the foragers which will be migrating over for a week or more. And foragers can build comb very fast, faster than young bees in my experience. The young bees in place will help the queen continue laying up slowly, so that more force can be spent on drawing comb.

This is the fastest way I've found to get comb drawn, other than doing a shook swarm process, which does not give you a split or two. And I'm assuming that drawn comb will be needed in this adventure. This will be very similar to a swarm, except you have an actively laying queen with room to lay and young bees emerging. the bees will draw comb and quite quickly.

Lauri has outlined the same or very similar process, search for her postings on the matter.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The only thing I worry about is the active Africanized bees down there. If this location have them then having
open mated queens will be a bit of a headache the next season. I'm sure they will overwinter well as I have done it
last season with 2-4 frames of bees here. That is why I advised to get the gentle type mated queens from reputable
sellers. Oh the intention of these split will be quite strong alright. Only feed them what they can use over night or put a
screen guard over the weaker hive.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Beepro...
Thanks, I'd forgotten about the possibility of the AHB genes in the areas in Southern CA, you do have a good point there, in which case my plan may need some modifications in it's execution.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Your plan is good. It is doable when the OP pick his method. After all beekeeping is all local. And the more
you understand about your local bee environment the better success you will have in beekeeping. Doing this for 5
seasons now I track every month to see what is blooming out there good for my bees. Any environment factors that
changed I will know for sure like the green nectar. Why? Has there been a recent car accident nearby or the bees went to the car repair shop to collect during the dearth?


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## physicsdude (Mar 6, 2015)

Thanks all for your replies.
Yes, AHB are a big problem in my area. No open mated queens for me unless I get a spot to the north just for that purpose. Going through a bit of an economic rough time right now, but if I have the resources, I'm definitely going to try.
Matt Brown


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

To expand up North you definitely need to find a place without the AHB there. It is local environment that will give us an
advantage but at the same time can bound us in if not too favorable on beekeeping. One beekeeper told me he's so sick of keeping the local AHB that he just packed up and pursued beekeeping in a more favorable state. Doing quite well at it too.
Your situation really give the introspection of how fortunate I am without the AHB here. Still I'm too picky to find the more gentle type bees to keep.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

Ray: I'm going to give your method a whirl with mated queens.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

MTN-Bees said:


> Ray: I'm going to give your method a whirl with mated queens.


OK, good luck. But keep in mind, that way I wrote up is for getting bees to make their own queens, and for getting comb drawn by the queen left in place. It should still work out by adding queens into the mix, just think it through and make any modification you might think are needed with that change. Keep in mind your flows in the area as well. 

The splits you move away, since they are getting purchased queens, will grow much faster and end up as larger hives by far than the ones with the old queens left in place. You may want to do some equalizing of brood or stores after a brood cycle. Also, we are not in spring build up mode any more, so the old queens left in place may need a boost after a brood cycle, or just keep them as singles as if they were over wintered nucs holding queens in reserve. Also, it's now getting late in the bee season, they won't want to draw wax out much longer, keep that in mind. Many possibilities depending on your goals. Good luck!

Added thought...
You are in Squaw Valley which is a whole lot different location than Simi Valley location of the original poster of this thread. You'll most likely have time to do this still with purchased queens, you know more about the timing in your location than I do. Keep the feed on the old queens and hope they keep drawing wax.


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