# Too Late to start??



## King bee apiary (Feb 8, 2005)

I would go ahead and get the packages,you still have time for them to build up over this summer.Noone should expect to get a large honey crop from a first year package.
Has all the flowers quit blooming already,I didn't think they had started real good up there yet,Just getting a good start here in the south.
As with everything a person gets involved in there are risk,you just have to learn from the mistakes and try again.I would consider more than one package of bees just in case one does fail maybe another will survive.
Heres hoping you get them and have a good year.


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## rflegel (Apr 25, 2005)

Thank you for your reply. I did consider trying two packages this year for the reason you mention, but finances are tight and I had been told earlier to discard my old frames and start with new, which is what I did. I purchased all of my supplies used about a month ago and was afraid of the risk of old combs and frames having problems. Also the flowers are yet to bloom for the most part.


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## Pugs (Jul 15, 2004)

rflegel,

I'm not familar with your area. Seems rather early for the flow to be over though. Do you have blackberries all over the place like we do here in the Willamette Valley? If so, that is most likely your main flow. Our flow should be starting in the next few weeks and go through July (I can't remember exactly when the berries stop blooming).

Pugs


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## Lori McAllister (Sep 8, 2004)

I agree with Pugs, the honey flow here in the northwest is just getting started with the heaviest flow coming in June.
Your bees should build up just fine, good luck,
Lori


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## rflegel (Apr 25, 2005)

Thank you all for your replies. The biggest flow is said to be the big leaf maple, but we are fortunate enough to have a large crop of blackberries and salmon berries. I am pretty sure there are many other potential blooms near as we are located in the foothills of the Olympics with many wildflowers near by. I was surprised by the information I had received about the flow being over. Perhaps I had mis-understood what I had heard. Thanks again all!


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## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

I say go for it. Your nectar flow is probably just about to get started so you should have plenty of time. This is my 3rd yr so I don't know everything but I think I've learned from my mistakes. One thing I remember regretting at the end of my 1st season was not having more drawn comb. I fed my 2 young colonies for about a month then stopped feeding once the nectar flow was going. I should've kept feeding as long as they would take it then start again after the flow to encourage more comb building. Drawn comb really is a beekeeper's most valuable possession, so to speak. Get as much comb made as possible your first year so that you'll be ready to make a serious honey crop next year. And protect that comb from wax moths if they are present in your area. I let some of mine get damaged. And learn all you can by viewing this site and others and by reading a good, up to date beekeeping book like The Beekeeper's Handbook or others.
Sorry to ramble, its late. Good luck!
Ken


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

rflegel, I'm in Kirkland, and my hive was started just ten days ago (and going strong). According to the PSBA meeting I went to, there is a flow on now (my bees have not taken much from the feeder for three days, but they seem to be quite busy). Blackberry is coming up soon (june?), so we should have time. I certainly hope so, since I'm only a few days ahead of you.

Good luck, and look up the west sound beekeepers association if you haven't already.


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## dlib from (Apr 17, 2005)

the bigleaf maple flow is supposedly a real nice flow but in the 6 years that I've been keeping bees, I've not once been lucky enough to have a strong hive during the maple flow. What you're really aiming for is the blackberry flow in June. I'd keep feeding sugar water until mid may so your hive is strong and filled with drawn comb. With a little luck, you'll get a surplus during June. If you live in the right location on the Olympic Peninsula, the best flow in the area is Polygonum cuspidatum, giant knotweed. It is by far the best tasting honey your going to get. It's just as dark as buckwheat honey (it's the same genus) but doesn't have the off flavors. It's perfectly sweet but nicely complex. It blooms in late August. Good luck.


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## rflegel (Apr 25, 2005)

Thanks all! I'm just about ready. I need pick up some paraffin wax to seal the joints on the hive top feeder I built, some sugar and make an entrance reducer and then it's off to pick up the bees. I am concerned about the weather though, it's raining and I understand I should not hive the bees until the weather is better. Dry & warmer weather does not seem to be in the forcast for another week or so, If I am to trust the local weather forcasters. Any thoughts on this?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Too late? Missed the flow? ...I am not sure who you have been talking too, but stick with the advice from beesource.
The main flow is just that, the main flow. Its not the only flow. And you should be feeding new packages on foundation anyways making the "main" flow timing just about useless. Main flows are for honey production, not discussions of building first year hives. I have made splits, caught swarms and installed bees all the way through June and July, and with a little help from me, and nothing too drastic from nature in the way of a major drought or an extremely early winter, all can build up to go through winter.


Do you think those who gave you that "its too late" info, who catch a swarm next week or next month, are going to let it go to waste. Heck no. May give it some honey, may give it some comb, but for the most part a swarm will draw comb and collect stores at incredible rates. And I have had packages and swarms both draw a full box out in 4-6 weeks, and than adding the second another 4-6 weeks for that. Bees here will bring in something all the way to October or early frost.

Not in regards to honey for supering, but speaking strictly for hive build-up, I would also add that the main flow if its as early as you suggest, will play a minimal part in your hives overall honey collecting efforts. Bees will continuously bring in nectar all summer long. Yeah, it may not be called "main" flow material, but your bees can only bring in so much as they draw comb, raise brood, and still sometimes have to deal with the spring cold snaps, rainy periods, etc.

This idea of having everything installed by April is absurd. I would really think twice about asking advice from the same people, who said it was too late, in the future.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Well, hold on now Bjorn, there is a tiny bit of
truth in what he was told. Let's assume he has
zero drawn comb, and got his packages a few
weeks before the "main flow". That main flow would
at least help them draw a lot of comb quickly, as
nothing beats a genuine nectar flow for getting
comb drawn.

Sure, he'd need to feed those packages all spring,
if not all summer to get them built up to decent
size and strength for overwintering, but just like
an overwintered colony, a package that misses
the "main spring flow" misses out on the highest
quality nectar available all year. Sugar content
of spring nectars are 2-3 times as high as the
sugar content of nectar available later.

So are late packages a bummer? Sure they are.
Are they a reason to "wait for next year".
No, not at all.
Do they require more feeding, and build up
slower than earlier packages? Yes, moreso
in an area with mild winters, where packages
could be installed even in March.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I am guessing that it may have been a slight miscommumication. I would bet that what they meant was "it is too late to hit the main flow". Meaning that since packages are later this year and our main flow may be earlier, that it may be impossible to get this package large enough to get a honey crop for you this year.

You probably wouldn't have got much if any, even if the bees had got to you a month ago, but the odds would have been much better. It is not too late to start a package. It will mean that you will get a honey crop next year, but if you wait until next year for a package, you may not get one even then.


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## rflegel (Apr 25, 2005)

Thanks again for all of the input. I am starting with zero drawn comb as I had been told it would be best to discard all of my old frames (with drawn comb) and to start with new. The reason for this advice was that I had just recently purchased my stock of equipment and was uncertain of any potential disease problems. Foulbrood had been the topic and was said to live for decades in wood. Also the old 1962 copy of First Lessons In Beekeeping" had notes in it relating to foulbrood. So I burned and buried all of the old frames and comb and charred and scraped the inside of the old hive and super boxes in an attempt to provide the very best start for the new package.

Being cautious I also washed and bleached the old "bee suit", veil, capping knives, and misc. other equipment. I also gave all of the old hive and super boxes new paint on the exterior, built a hive-top feeder, IPM screened bottom board, slatted rack, hive stand and outer cover. I will also be cleaning the extractor befor it is used, hopefully next year.

I just recieved two more deep supers yesterday from the same person I purchased all of the equipment from. One has draw comb the other empty frames with no foundation. I had planned on doing the same discard of frames and char, scrape and paint routine as with the others. Do you think this was wise to do? I also have a supply of old meds that I am concerned about using. My thought was to start with new, as/if need.

Well, I'm off to pick up the package of bees as an excited new bee keeper, I hope. I have been doing much reading and feel as though I have just enough information on board for a decent start although the reading does not cover all of the questions I have come up with. That is where all of you have helped.

Thanks again for all of the input!


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## rflegel (Apr 25, 2005)

Thanks again for all of the input. I am starting with zero drawn comb as I had been told it would be best to discard all of my old frames (with drawn comb) and to start with new. The reason for this advice was that I had just recently purchased my stock of equipment and was uncertain of any potential disease problems. Foulbrood had been the topic and was said to live for decades in wood. Also the old 1962 copy of First Lessons In Beekeeping" had notes in it relating to foulbrood. So I burned and buried all of the old frames and comb and charred and scraped the inside of the old hive and super boxes in an attempt to provide the very best start for the new package.

Being cautious I also washed and bleached the old "bee suit", veil, capping knives, and misc. other equipment. I also gave all of the old hive and super boxes new paint on the exterior, built a hive-top feeder, IPM screened bottom board, slatted rack, hive stand and outer cover. I will also be cleaning the extractor before it is used, hopefully next year.

I just recieved two more deep supers yesterday from the same person I purchased all of the equipment from. One has draw comb the other empty frames with no foundation. I had planned on doing the same discard of frames and char, scrape and paint routine as with the others. Do you think this was wise to do? I also have a supply of old meds that I am concerned about using. My thought was to start with new, as/if need.

Well, I'm off to pick up the package of bees as an excited new bee keeper, I hope. I have been doing much reading and feel as though I have just enough information on board for a decent start although the reading does not cover all of the questions I have come up with. That is where all of you have helped.

Thanks again for all of the input!


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

rflegel: I live in Rochester and the vine maple, black locast is just starting, their is also fireweed, and hawthorn the the bees work. My vine maple just started blooming w/the locast just comming in. Altough in Wash. different areas will bloom at different times, we're 5 miles from Centralia and they are about 2 weeks ahead of us in bloom time. Listen to the people on the site. IMHO they are alot better informed.
The PSBA needs to check all areas before saying the main flow is over, for me it is just getting ready to start. GOOD LUCK and WELCOME TO BEE KEEPING.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Jim fischer, Who said that the main flow would not help? I said in the same paragraph that if your feeding your bees from the start, then whether you are in a flow or not does not matter. (ok, break this down I'm sure you will do, have fun) In other words, the bees are only going to take so much anyway, and if they are getting all they can from feeding (something highly suggested for new pavckages on foundation), than whether you miss the flow or not makes no difference. Of course now you suggest and compare a hive if started two weeks earlier and what advantage they may have...something that is true at any time of the year. Imagine that....someone saying saying packages installed two weeks earlier than the next package would have a head start, wow, we are breaking new ground with statememts like that. I will not argue the quality of feed and nutritional content of sugar compared to nectar from a flow. (you may impress others with detailed analysis of every comment, breakdown graphs, and inforamtion that although may be thuthful, does little to help in the discussion at hand, but I'll pass.) This new beekeeper is asking whether it is too late to start a package in April. Debating the percentages of what he missed in relationship of the seasons progress is mind-boggling. 

Feeding compensates for a flow, whether taken advantage of or not. Feeding is a flow unto itself, which allows the bees to draw comb, and store reserves. So he missed the flow two weeks ago. No big deal.

Sometimes I feel the nitpicking over every small detail of every comment, made by you Jim really takesaway from the quality of information for those seeking advice. Someone mentioned recently about all your accomplishments and degrees, and indicated they were surprised you have the time or inclination to partake in long drawn out detailed argument type discussions. I'll second that.

As for anyone saying that the last week of April is to late for installing new packages, and believing that you can not have them ready for winter, regardless of the timing of the main flow is absurd. Not even mentioning the fact that I find it amazing that the season is over in Washington in mid-April, I further question anybody's statement that April is too late for beekeepers to start. And to suggest that there is some truth to someone saying that because the flow is over (questionable), that it is too late, is self-defeating. 

Good luck rflegal, it is not too late regardless of what others feel.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Basically a package is a swarm. Just one that was artificially created. The old saying is:

"A swarm in May is worth a load of hay.
A swarm is June is worth a silver spoon.
A swarm in July isn't worth a fly."

Frankly I'll take a swarm in July. I've seen a lot of them build up enough to do well the next year.

April 30 is not too late to start a hive of bees anywhere that I know of in North America. I'll bet a lot of Canadians are just getting theirs and they have an even shorter season.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> "A swarm in May is worth a load of hay.
> A swarm is June is worth a silver spoon.
> A swarm in July isn't worth a fly."

OK, but what does that really mean?

Virginia's April Hay prices were:
Mixed Grass Large square Premium 2nd cutting $87.00-$101.00.

Google's Froogle service shows silver spoons
running anywhere from $8.00 to $600.00
(the median price would be $296.00).

Hand-tied flies start at $0.55 and go up
to 6 flies for $44.00 ($7.33 each).

So, to maximize my profits, I should only
sell nucs and splits in June!


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## roger eagles (Apr 18, 2004)

We can get bees in 2 week of may and make 165 lbs.Our flow starts around 28 of june an goes into 1st week of sept.depending on fall.By 2 week of oct they should be fed and prety well wrapt.This is central,south ,Can.15 min from U.S. border,N.D.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

go for it. feed the heck out of them they will be fine!


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## rflegel (Apr 25, 2005)

Thank you one and all. I have just hived the bees and all went well! I do have one new question now that I will post under the heading "entrance reducer".


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

<the median price would be $296.00>

Wow. That's very close to the mean of the reported data. There must have a nice distribution of spoons available in all price ranges to get that kind of agreement between mean and median.


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