# Thymol in nucs



## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Are you using oxalic dribble or gas methods?
Ernie


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We have been dribbling on check backs as close as we can to 21 days after killing our old queen.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

I run thymol in my feed on all the splits. Very low to zero mite counts using an alcohol was test.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

I have used apiguard in nuc's I over wintered. No problems


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Alpha how much thymol per gallon of feed?


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

the break in brood rearing plus the low number of parasite hosts negates the need for treatment in a nuc in my view. 

I never treat my nucs going into their first winter. Is Mike Palmer out there? I don't think he treats his nucs either.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Nick Noyes said:


> Alpha how much thymol per gallon of feed?


He might be using the formula that's provided on Randy Oilivers web site.
Ernie


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

I have it at home. I will post it tonight and PM you with it also. I don't want to guess cause I have worked long and hard to get the right amount. I will have to check out Randy's...see if I am close to his.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Big thanks to a lot of you American beekeepers on all the work you have done with regards to varroa control. We are several years behind in the varroa resistance journey in Canada and are able to learn a lot from your battles. Doesn't mean we don't get caught with some of the same disastrous situations (though we probably shouldn't), but the options back to healthy hives are much clearer for us due to your battles.

Thanks again.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Nick Noyes said:


> Alpha how much thymol per gallon of feed?


Nick,

Here is my feed recipe.

Liquid Feed – Sprayer (or feed)
3 Gallons of Water
20 lbs of Sugar
(1.5 droppers of thyme oil) – Optional for use with mite control misting or as treatment/feed
3 droppers of lemongrass oil
3 droppers of spearmint oil
5 teaspoons of Soy Lecithin Granules

In a 5 gallon bucket pour in one gallon of very hot water (not boiling). Mix in 5 teaspoons of Lecithin granules. With a mud mixer or similar mixer, mix in the granules for a couple of seconds. Add your lemongrass and spearmint oil to the mix and run the mixer again. Next, add two gallons of tap water. Mix again. Next, start adding your bags of sugar. Add a couple of bags and mix then add more. If you try and add too much at once it can burn out your mixer. Keep mixing until all the sugar is mixed well into the solution. You should have about 4- 4.5 gallons of feed ready to go. 
(For mite control misting) Get a garden sprayer. Use one that has not been used before as you do not want chemicals in your feed. I label the one I use “Bee Feed” so it doesn’t get confused with anything. Pour in your mix and pressure up your sprayer. I use the fine mist setting. This allows you to mist a frame in one or at most two sweeps and doesn’t soak the frame or bees but gives it a nice even complete coating. Place into your hive and move to the next frame.
Lastly, I run two of these feeds with thyme and then just run them with lemongrass and spearmint. Towards the end of Nov. I will feed one more time with thyme. No special reason that I do this but experimenting around I found this works best for the bees. My mite counts since starting this method have been very low to zero. 
Alternate Liquid Feed (makes up a smaller batch)
2qts. of water
2qts. of sugar
12 drops of thyme oil
28 drops of lemongrass oil
28 drops of spearmint oil
3 teaspoons of lecithin granules


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

> I have worked long and hard to get the right amount.

How did you decide when you had it right?


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Does anyone know how many drops are in a liquid ounce?


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

And what size dropper? 1ml, 2ml, 10ml?


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Heck I don't know what size it is, but I can get 28 drops filling the dropper as full as I can get it. Not sure how many drops in an oz but the oz containers of EO's I buy last a good while.

To answer Allen's question. I started with a formula that I got from someone at one of our bee meetings long ago. Since then I have been working on getting the amount right so as to have maximum effect with as little EO's as possible. This is the current formula (three years worth of effort) that I am using and it seems to work really well. My mite count this fall using the alcohol wash method with between zero and three on 99 percent of my hives. I had one count of 7 which was the biggest I had. Several other here on Beesource have used this with good success. If you improve on it, please let me know...always looking to tweek it just a bit more.


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Here is what I have measured out a few times using the .5 oz bottle that had the built in dropper.

15 drops = .25 tsp. .5 ounce bottle has 3 tsp. (180 drops)


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Have you fed thymol without the spearmint and lemongrass?
Also it is my understanding you are using thyme oil not thyme crystals disolved in alcohol?
Were is a good place to purchase large quantities(gallons) of thyme oil?
Also thanks for the info already given.


Would 10 drops of thyme oil per hive be the right amount?
Which would be about 14 oz. per 500 gallons of feed.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

> To answer Allen's question. I started with a formula that I got from someone at one of our bee meetings long ago. Since then I have been working on getting the amount right so as to have maximum effect with as little EO's as possible. This is the current formula (three years worth of effort) that I am using and it seems to work really well. My mite count this fall using the alcohol wash method with between zero and three on 99 percent of my hives. I had one count of 7 which was the biggest I had. Several other here on Beesource have used this with good success. If you improve on it, please let me know...always looking to tweek it just a bit more.


Thanks. I guess what I am getting at is, are you going by mite counts and comparing hives that receive various formulas all at the same time as well as some that get no treatment?

At Orlando, I did hear that someone has EO formula which Dave Wick, a virus tech guy from Montana said seemed to reduce his virus loads to immeasurable levels in a limited and nob-scientific test of a few hives he has -- if I understood him correctly. I have the info here somewhere and will post it.

I tend to be sceptical about these things and hate to put anything into my hives, but I also keep an open mind and if something works, it works.

Are there other things you are measuring?


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

What is the concentration of thyme in your thyme oil? 

If I go by thyme crystals I know the concentration is 100% but different oils have different thyme concentrations. 

Thyme oil is available with a concentration from 25% up to 65% of thyme.
IMO it is useless to go by any formula when using different oils.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

So how do you mix the crystals and how much per hive?


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

I use alcohol, the higher strength stuff purchased at a vet clinic,I'm mixing 750 grams of thymol crystals in appox 1/2 gallon alcohol , to dissolve all the crystals and to put in 1000 gallons of syrup ( 3/4 gram per gallon) I would be cautious at first on feeding anything to bees,There seems to be lots of variables involved in everything ones does with bees,maybe trying on only a few colonies at first, and not all of them and maybe a smaller dosage.I notice I get a build up of thymol in my syrup tank, maybe from several years usage in the same tank,never completely emptying the tank and not washing out my tank, It does seem to perciptate out over several weeks by floating on top of the syrup , depending on concentration and temperature and remixing does dissolve it again,We have a by pass on our pump that recirculates while pumping, so mixes as well as pumps.
Noticed in June on a warm day while feeder pails were on with thymol syrup and dosage was one gram per gallon, bees were hanging on the outside,other than that no other bad side effects.It does seem to help in controlling my mite population, I have not done any studies on this, it does definitely prevent syrup fermentation. I have seen a European study showing thymol fed over 3 years with fumidil-B showed there was no nosema spores present after 3 years, while those colonies just fed fumidil B still had spores after 3 years.Have not see this study duplicated anywhere.Haven't tested my bees for nosema levels lately ,but feed fumidil-B, sometimes both spring and fall


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Irwin

Are you using the thymol primarily to prevent fermentation in the syrup, to treat for nosema and varroa? Are you using a supplementary treatment for varroa? 

Thanks


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Not sure about Irwin, but I use thymol for treatment of varroa. I feed spearmint and lemongrass for the nosema. I don't use Fum B and haven't had a problem with my bees since starting this process about 3 years ago.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Allen

I am using the thymol for all three, it prevents fermentation, I think it hinders mite population growth and controls nosema spores.I had to treat 100 nuc's purchased this spring, which received the thymol syrup all thru the spring but had higher mite counts than my other colonies( nuc's had 5 % or better) in the fall. I have done no testing to prove thymol controls mites or nosema, it is just an observation that I think it does.2009 was the second year of usage, hope colonies look as good as they did last year.
So there was no mite treatment in 2009 except for the nuc's


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Alpha

I noticed in your description of your procedure earlier in this thread that you misted each frame separately. Do you find that this greatly improves your varroa control as opposed to just feeding thymol syrup? Are several feedings like you do after the misting more effective than one big feeding?

Irwin

Where have you been buying your thymol crystals in MB?

Thanks


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

The misting incites a huge kill off as any mites not in a closed cell are killed on contact and if they move through the thymol 1:1 which is on the combs. The subsequent feeding makes sure that those in sealed cells are killed once they emerge and go into the subsequent cell for breeding. The bees feed the thymol syrup to the larvae and this contact kills those mites resulting in a pretty good culling of any mites. 

I only mist hives that have a high mite count. Lastly (last two years) this has only been hives or nucs that I have acquired from other beeks as my hives which I feed in the spring and fall have a zero or very very low mite count so no real reason to mist those. I did try misting a hive that had EFB to see if it helped, but I ended up burning it after it didn't appear to help out the hive for this. If I have any show up with EFB or AFB this year I may try different concentrations of EO's to see if it helps. I haven't tried teatree oil yet...can't hurt to try. FYI - I pull those hives to isolation yards before I burn them so they can't spread to other hives.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

I get my thymol crystals from The Lebermuth Company, INC., it only seems to come in one grade "flavor"


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

We are having low winter loss, 21 dead out of 436 hives checked so far,(about 4.8%) 360 left to put patties and pails on.It was a mild winter , with not much wind, only one real cold snap, which didn't last too long.I feel my thymolated syrup had a lot to do with this success.
Mite counts were not done till Sept, so if they were high I would have cooked my goose, winter bees heavily infested do not survive,fortunately they were low and I only had to treat a 100 colonies.Average winter losses are usually 15 % plus


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

What is the concentration of the thymol oil used in the 5 gal mixture? Did I miss the post somewhere? 

thanks


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## Jackobeeo (Jan 11, 2010)

alpha 6

Thanks for the info and recipe 

Do you follow up same treatment in Spring?

What intervals in Fall treats? and do you purchase EO online or by mail?

I'm wanting to get away from the 'beneficial drug companies' products, so all info is a real bonus.

Thnx again
Jacko


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