# so how much does old dark comb darken up honey



## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

when using alot of old brood comb in honey supers, how much does it darken the water white honey?


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

It doesn't much. There have been a few articles on this a few years back in some of the bee mags. Imparting acaricide and other residues not visible to the naked eye may be of more concern than color change.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Ahha! This ought to stir up some opinions!

I have produced water white sage from black combs. But I think I have read that moisture content of honey is a factor and here we have dry honey. 

Just a little bit of dark honey from an odd nectar source will sure go a long way in lowering the color grade.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Exactly, I also have seen water white come off very dark comb. I would definitely want to know the comb's history. 

It is hard to see contaminants on the order of PPB or PPM


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Well people tend to equate dark with contaminated but I fail to see the link.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Surely you don't. Dark = old(er) = more time chemicals have been in contact with the comb. One can still have dark combs even if they don't treat with chemicals. So the bigger question is, do(have) you used chemicals when these dark combs have been in your hives? If so, there are plenty of studies that point to higher levels of chemicals in older combs.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Hi Barry:

My honey supers are my drone combs that I wouldn't put in the brood chamber. I have owned and used them since long before the advent of mites and the chemicals I think you are referring to. Some of them have a mid rib so thick you can extract frames that are missing bottom bars. Many are not just dark but black. But they have never been exposed to miticides.

Frames from a brood chamber are another matter. In 2008 a honey producer in my county had @30 drums rejected by a buyer after finding a miticide contaminant. These frames were all as nice and new looking as you could imagine, new plastic frames, light combs,...and used interchangeably in the brood area. This guy admitted treating for mites with supers on.

So I think that the outward appearance of combs is a poor criterion.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

The older the comb, especially in the case of brood comb, the more likely it has seen acaracide treatments and absorbed some environmental contaminates (bees wax has been likened to a chemical sponge). There have been a lot of studies on comb residue the last few years that demonstrate this. That being said it is certainly possible to have clean dark old comb as long as it has been handled properly. 

It is not the darkness that makes it dirty, it is the fungicides, organophosphates, fuvlainate, Tylan, and other ag chems, the stuff the bees have a hard time cleaning out and that doesn't necessarily darken the honey that poses some residue risk in honey. I would want to know where the comb was used and what was used on it or better yet send some sample to a lab.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

The color of the honey is determed by the plant. Not by the combs or what kind of bee made it. :doh:
Come on guys!!!
90% of my honey combs are very dark, most are 35-80 years old. Each year my bees make the same water white honey, and the combs keep getting darker.

The question could be why does bees make more honey with dark combs? Or why does dark combs produce so much more then light combs?


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

How much more do they produce?


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I would like to see a pic of some 80 year old comb. That must be some black thick walled stuff. Talk about small cell!

G3


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

JBJ said:


> How much more do they produce?


That is a good question. The only thing I can come close to light combs is my comb honey. Most of my hives only make a 100 lb of comb honey. Last year APH (avg. per. hive) was 165 lbs.
I would think that it would take less to dry the honey down in the darker combs. I know the bees will go to the darker combs and work first.


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## Scott J. (Feb 6, 2007)

Do you have any problems uncaping old dark combs?


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I use a chain uncapper and I only run 8 frames for honey so the frames are drawn way out. The bees can put more in 8 frames then 10 frames.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

G3farms said:


> I would like to see a pic of some 80 year old comb. That must be some black thick walled stuff. Talk about small cell!
> 
> G3


I would like to see a photo of ANY comb with thickened walls. If you leave them in the sun they can melt down a little but when combs are in use by the bees they are constantly stripping the walls down. The mid rib builds up but not the walls. This is just another myth that lives on because people repeat things they have no knowledge of.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/publications/effects_comb_age.pdf

Interesting stuff here. Table 1. references comb age and inner cell dimensions.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Thanks for posting those studies John. They are interesting. When I look at the difference in cell size between new and old it is less than 2%. As the wall structure changes from wax and resin to having the fibrous material in addition I can understand. But the notion that the cells keep getting smaller and smaller with successive generations of bees is simply not true. This is just something people imagine, it seems logical, but it doesn't happen in real life.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I believe there was a study posted in the American Bee Journal a couple of decades ago about how much the honey was darkened by the combs. I have no doubt that white honey can be harvested from dark comb, but I like to believe the honey from the new or still white comb tastes the best. How hard do you want to try to make your product the best?

Roland


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Just a little bit of dark honey from an odd nectar source will sure go a long way in lowering the color grade. 
One frame of avocado honey can darken one 5 gallon can/bucket.
You have to sort them out from the orange and or sage--when you make it.
Ernie


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

The color of the honey is determed by the plant.
You are right!
They are still trying to figure out why the same orange grove produces a differen color in different years.
Ernie


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_I would like to see a photo of ANY comb with thickened walls._

Tom, in my foundationless frames I have had the bees start drawing comb with REALLY thick walls. I'm talking 1/32 inch thick walls.

I've never had them draw a whole frame this way, but have had them draw a few inches like this.

Is this what you want a picture of?


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Tom G. Laury said:


> I would like to see a photo of ANY comb with thickened walls. If you leave them in the sun they can melt down a little but when combs are in use by the bees they are constantly stripping the walls down. The mid rib builds up but not the walls. This is just another myth that lives on because people repeat things they have no knowledge of.


Tom, I've personally seen photos (not drawings, mind you) of cells cut cross section and you can clearly see the layers and layers of cocoon skins where generations of larvae have used the same cell, only to be propolized and polished clean again with another layer. So yes the walls appear in the photo to thicken with age!

So this layer of propolis means the walls don't build up? Sorry I don't buy that. Pls disprove the photo (I think it's in Blackiston's, Beekeeping for Dummies book). I'm validating the knowledge of something I've SEEN. Now, what do you have to say about that? Will you say it's photoshopped?


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Beekeeping for Dummies book). I'm validating the knowledge of something I've SEEN.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

If you think about it:
The bees draw out the foundation with it's mid-rib, we cut the comb down so that we can extract the honey, store the combs for the next seasonal use, super the bees, they use it and so on and so on 
You will have some very old combs that the bees clean up and re-furbish.
Running 9 frames in a super can give you the 80 years + combs.
9 frames in a super and brood chamber sure makes hive manupulations easier.
Ernie


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Still like to see some pics of comb that is still in use since 1929. 

I think everyone would, just kind of a neat thing to see to me.
You know how us new beeks are curious.

G3


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Hey in ten weeks when I shake the bees out I'll show you. 

I don't care about the size of the cells as long as it get the job done. The combs have to be tuff for the way I beekeep. This winter I'll spray HFCS that is 150 deg. with 120 psi. The hot syrup might even make the cell walls thicker, but WHO CARES


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

I'm also validating something I've seen. I've extracted feral colonies out of walls of 200 yr old churches and saw bees myself the size of houseflies. Why? Because layers of wax and cocoon skins have built up on the sides of walls and reduced the diameter of the cells. I'm not saying the comb was 200 yrs old, but about 20 yrs, given what old timers had told me. Not a myth, sir.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Bees the size of houseflies.

You expect someone to believe that?


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

There are churches out there a lot older than 200 years, c'mon!


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## John Smith (Jan 31, 2006)

Well, guys, you’ve got three (at least) issues going here, and they are all mixed up together.

Someone said on the opening page, that bees clean the cocoon off the walls but not that bit next to the midrib. I believe this to be true, mainly because the larvae defecate against the midrib and the cocoon covers it over, so what cleaning lady would go looking for the job of tearing that fibre apart with her mandibles. Incidentally, that is where I believe the spores of the foulbrood hide, only to be brought to light and rendered infectious by the wax moth.

I find huge chunks of very deep, black and fibrous midrib (maybe an inch thick) at times in a corner, along the bottom bar etc., and I have heard many explanations as to why these chunks emerge and what builds them up. 

I have a theory that may be useful in unravelling some of these mysteries. 

A comb with a patch of drone cell in the brood area can be a nuisance to my bees, who frequently (most years) run at least some brood during winter. Now brood in winter is challenging, so they wouldn't want to have too much of that warm space separated by comb they couldn't use. They don't often rear drones in winter. I wonder if in fact those patches of thick black wax and fibre have been squashed into lumps in the corner thanks to the pressure of the warm part of the nest expanding (over time) with all those maturing pupae pushing out the walls of their cell. 

Wild, aye? OK. but just imagine a few thousand bees growing in their cells to maturity, in a warm environment. They would exert a lot of pressure, especially over time. I am certain that a crooked comb placed in that winter brood nest will straighten out if brood is reared in it. Those grubs and pupae on the concave side would need some room, and the ones on the convex side would have surplus (very marginally speaking, of course). The effect is right before your eyes. You put in a mangled up comb, but still free of drone, and you can remove a clean slab eventually, with nice smooth brood in it. My winters are not to be confused with sub-polar ones. Maybe more like Florida Winters.

Two things contribute to darkened colour that have not been mentioned yet. For sure, dark nectar will make dark honey. But even light honey in old combs darkens considerably when extracted under certain conditions. In the case of the 8 frames per Ten Frame box, as noted above, the decapping knife is well away from the midrib. Hand uncapping also ensures a better chance of getting the honey out unblemished. 

What really ruins the light honey is putting old combs through an uncapping device that tears everything up as it progresses along the comb face. Old brood combs, pollen patches, distorted midrib patches, these all contribute to darkened honey as they are pulverised. Pollen especially, depending on how much colour is there in the natural pollen does the dirty on honey. Mono pumps are death on colour also, they grab those grains of pollen and literally shatter them into pulp as they rub the honey into the pollen. You can see the colour weeping off your drip tray from a comb that has been uncapped and the pollen has been cut.

Light nectar around my eucalypt honey flows will produce dark honey if the flow is below standard, as in dry seasons, but with moisture, the flow increases, and the faster the flow the lighter the honey will be. Even the wax on slow flows is darker. I put this down to the stain from the tree, being a certain level, is spread more thinly in the big flow, but is concentrated in the dry years. 

Ground Flora crops around here mostly have very little colour from the plant, unless it comes from pollen from something like dandelion.

If anything near this 'expansion' pressure is happening, I suspect it would break some of the fibres in the cocoon deposited on the cell walls, but not on the midrib. These breaks could well lead to the cleaning process that strips the cell wall and prevents a build-up beyond the limits of how much space that pupae requires to complete its development. We all have seen cell walls that are multi layers of cocoon, but never have I seen a full frame of those cells diminished beyond the natural size.

Just thinking outside the box a bit. Isn't that something beekeepers are allowed to do?

Cheers,
JohnS


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Tom G. Laury said:


> You expect someone to believe that?


I do. Now you can too!










There's one the size of a large house fly.


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## peletier (May 5, 2007)

Wow, what a leap! The thread starter asked how much dark comb darkened honey. I THINK we established right off that it doesn't darken it at all. Now here we are comparing the size of bees to the size of house flies. I'll play....I've seen some really small bees and some really big house flies. And to take one more small step, I'm not entirely sure I buy the idea that smaller cells produce smaller bees. :lookout:


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

When it comes to honey combs it don't make that much of a differents what size the cell is. I would think the bigger the better. 
The bee size and the size of cell doesn't have anything to do with this thread.
Who care what size the bees are as long as they fill my boxes.:doh:


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Bees the size of houseflies.
> 
> You expect someone to believe that?


I seen some today, no lie. Not alot but I seen 6 of them and yes they are honeybees. Freshly hatched, they were half the size of their sisters.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

I jumped back into this thread and made my last post with out seeing the previous 6. I have the colony marked and will get some pics tomorrow comparing them to the fly. No trick photography, I will be lucky if I can get the pics from my camera to this thread. Also since this thread started about "dark comb" I will start a new one.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

I think Barry's pic is sarcasm! Two of the bees are headless and missing the front legs.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

No sarcasm here! I took that sample picture of my bees to show the size variation within the same hive. These happen to be winter bees, yes, two missing heads, but so what? You can compare size and see that there are factors that play into bees not all being the same size. I'll leave it at that.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Barry said:


> These happen to be winter bees, yes, two missing heads, but so what? .


Ahh Barry, some good sub, fix those winter bees right up.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

How could I forget the sub? :doh:


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

The Honey Householder said:


> Hey in ten weeks when I shake the bees out I'll show you.
> 
> I don't care about the size of the cells as long as it get the job done. The combs have to be tuff for the way I beekeep. This winter I'll spray HFCS that is 150 deg. with 120 psi. The hot syrup might even make the cell walls thicker, but WHO CARES


 
Did you get a chance, I would still like to see a pic and I am very curious.

Thanks in advance

G3


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would like to see a pic of some 80 year old comb. That must be some black thick walled stuff. Talk about small cell!

According to Grout the bees will only allow it to get to some lower threshold and then they chew the cocoons out back to the diameter they want. So probably an inside diameter of 4.4mm to 4.6mm would be the maximum.

As far as color, my experience is that dark comb makes no difference at all to the color of the honey.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> As far as color, my experience is that dark comb makes no difference at all to the color of the honey.


Ditto


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Yup., that's how it is.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

To busy blowing the dead bees out of the frames to take pictures.
Maybe a 120 psi will open up those cell walls. I know it get there little butts out of them. 
Why does bees have to climb into the cells to die????? This is the reason you shake the bees out in the fall.

Sorry what was the question again..:banana:


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Just wanted to see what a frame and comb from 1929 looked like.

G3


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

The Honey Householder said:


> To busy blowing the dead bees out of the frames to take pictures.
> Maybe a 120 psi will open up those cell walls. I know it get there little butts out of them.
> Why does bees have to climb into the cells to die????? This is the reason you shake the bees out in the fall.
> 
> Sorry what was the question again..:banana:


Just grab there little butts with your teeth and pull them out like a real beekeeper. :lpf:


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

That's one way to get your protein! :lpf:


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I get enough on the blow back to fill me up each day.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

G3farms said:


> Just wanted to see what a frame and comb from 1929 looked like.
> 
> G3


You know frames that old have a repair piece on each corner. A lot more metal then wood. You do what you have to, to save the combs.


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