# Fifty years in house - treatment-free (This isn't supposed to be possible)



## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ah, this should be in the swarm/cut out forum, unless you care to post something that ties it to this forum.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Barry said:


> Ah, this should be in the swarm/cut out forum, unless you care to post something that ties it to this forum.


Barry, the guy doing the cut-out is constantly talking about the bees being there treatment-free for fifty years.

He didn't even see any mites.

I'm confused as to how that doesn't pertain to this forum on treatment-free bee keeping?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

So what's the point? What are you wanting us to take away from this video?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Cutouts are a good source of treatment free bees.

What else?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

We should be keeping our bees inside wall structures?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

This is the 'Holy Grail' of treatment free bee cutouts.

It's got human interest.

You could easily hire a home remodeler to fix it, and put in some new windows while they're at it.

I hope that PatBeek paid cash for them.

If not, do it man.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

WLC said:


> This is the 'Holy Grail' of treatment free bee cutouts.
> 
> It's got human interest.
> 
> ...


I wish I could take credit for getting those bees, but that wasn't me.

I would say that those bees are a definite indicator that bees do not need treatments.

But I also realize that the present state of industrial bee keeping has almost no resemblance to those bees living in that wall. 

Perhaps the industry can move closer to the natural model in the future before everything collapses? Because I know bees can't survive too long by being fed sugar syrup that's laced with antibiotics and stuff like that. That cycle cannot continue with good results.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, you're in the right place.

However, since you do know of that find, see if the beekeeper that has them will sell you their descendants.

It's a known pedigree.


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## ralph3 (Jun 3, 2012)

Bees and mites have been around since creation. So has the beetle. Nothin new under the sun.

I know of a black walnut tree that has had them in it for atleast 30. I know where 5 fully functional and evidently healthy colonies are that are in house walls. They've been there for atleast 20 years on one and 30ish to 40 on the other ones.

I cutout three colonies in an old abandoned house back in march that were probably there in some form for decades. one had nearly a full board of siding gone exposing the colony/combs to the weather near the top of the hive. they wintered just fine and were exploding with bees in march.

My great grandaddy's house had bees in it for atleast 30 years until I cut them out last year. My grandaddy took honey out of the wall on that one probably around 1987ish. I was with him when he did. 

So far as I know. Nobody snuck mite strips and beetle traps in these hives in the last decades.


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Took out a monster hive this spring....the owner claimed they had been there 5-10 years. I thought wow....treatment free....and they certainly were. However, he also said some years they would leave for a while, and then come back. Point is hives die...swarms move in. Were these bees in the video, truly from 50 years of the same lineage?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Let's not forget the microbiota hypothesis.

It's the stuff growing on the comb that can be important.

That's what treatments might be destroying.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

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WLC said:


> Let's not forget the microbiota hypothesis.
> 
> It's the stuff growing on the comb that can be important.
> 
> That's what treatments might be destroying.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

There are a lot of assumptions already being made. The stuff growing on the comb? The comb the grandfather would cut out every year and melt on his stove? 50 years goes quite a ways before varroa. No one can say how many times the bees died or swarmed and a new colony moved in. Likely. So now take these bees out of the wall and hive them. You think they will live even 20 years? You might n ot be able to take a colony like this and expect to see the same results in a Lang hive.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Barry:

I understand your point.

However, until I actually tested different honeys from around the world by using them to inoculate syrup and milk, no one would have believed that they would have had differing properties. Some demonstrated **** lacto fermentation, others hetero (gas!).

Even the honey from a cutout could have value as an inoculate.

It's alive!.

Everything from this kind of a cutout is important to TFB.

We have a federal mandate to develop resistant stocks of Honeybees.

Where do you think they're going to come from? 

Why aren't we supporting the individuals doing these cutouts, trapouts, and swarm removals as true Conservationists?

In my opinion, they're the most likely source of resistant stock that we can find. Contact them, give them your number, and your price.

Especially if you're a TFBer.

They belong here on the TFB forum.

WLC.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

ralph3 said:


> Bees and mites have been around since creation. So has the beetle. Nothin new under the sun.
> 
> I know of a black walnut tree that has had them in it for atleast 30. I know where 5 fully functional and evidently healthy colonies are that are in house walls. They've been there for atleast 20 years on one and 30ish to 40 on the other ones.
> 
> ...


Varroa mites have not been on Apis mellifera since creation, whenever that was.

Honey bees have not been living in the wall of that house for 50 years continuously. That doesn't happen. Not even befor varroa got to the US. Y'all don't know nuttin' 'bout bees.

Any colony that survives in a tree or the wall of a house swarms more often than those in boxes managed by beekeepers. That gives them a brood break which cuts back on varroa infestation. They also all died out when varroa first arrived or came thru an area.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I disagree with the opposition speaker 100%

I demand that we recognize the contributions of these true conservationists to treatment free beekeeping.

WLC.


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## ralph3 (Jun 3, 2012)

Huntingstoneboy said:


> Took out a monster hive this spring....the owner claimed they had been there 5-10 years. I thought wow....treatment free....and they certainly were. However, he also said some years they would leave for a while, and then come back. Point is hives die...swarms move in. Were these bees in the video, truly from 50 years of the same lineage?


It's doubtful they are exactly descendant from the queen that was in there 50 years ago. That may be the point that some people take but I don't. The issue is the cavity has maintained bees relatively consistently that long.

They've just managed to do all the things a bee keeper should keep an eye on and possibly do, but they've done it all on their own.

Hives get over thrown at times and the queen gets replaced by a swarm queen. I've seen it twice so no tellin how many times it happens and people never know. Because all you see is bees going in and out of a hole.

If somebody had about 10 hives spaced moderately apart and did nothing to them but maintain the woodenware. They could probably replicate this. When the strong ones swarm in the spring they would take over and clean out the weak and history repeats.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

To what purpose? To have bees? If all you want to do is have bees, not do the keepiong that keeping bees is all about, then leave it to the environment/Mother Nature to keep the bees in your area. People keep bees in boxes to interact w/ them. To have them for their own benefits, just like people have sheep or cattle.

I don't know if there is anything special about the bees in that house. No one should assume there is or isn't. Just because they occupy the same cavity that other bees have before means little about them themselves. Mostly it means that it is an attractive location. One that bees prefer. Shucks, there is plenty there to attract a new swarm.

I have bees in the maple tree in my front yard and bees in the wall of my house. Those cavities have been occupied many years since I have lived here. Maybe before I lived here. But I know where the current residents came from. I saw the swarm move in. I know how many years the have been vacant.

If you find a colony in the side of a house cut them out and see what they do for you. But don't get blown away by the fact that bees have occupied a space for many years. It doesn't necessarily mean as much as you might think.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Maybe heating one side of the hive all winter is the trick...


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

sqkcrk is exactly correct.. however I would like to try some of those nice black bees there is always some chance that they are great. I also know they would be real ify as far north as mark and myself are.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

However, the fact remains, that treatment free beekeepers are reporting that they are getting actual resistant stock from cutouts, etc. .

A source of resistant stock, is a source of resistant stock.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

WLC said:


> However, the fact remains, that treatment free beekeepers are reporting that they are getting actual resistant stock from cutouts, etc. .
> 
> A source of resistant stock, is a source of resistant stock.


I am sure that that is correct, the real question is at what ratio? My guess is it would tend to follow a bell curve.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

I'm one of the TF nuts but watching the video, I'm skeptical about the age of the current colony. 

I've done a lot of removals and old established colonies in my experience always have a lot of debris below the nest. 

Also, the quite entertaining beekeeper says the siding was removed and put back by the old farmer to harvest the honey in days gone by, but you would see that evidence in the old lap siding boards.

Not saying the house hasn't had bees for 50 years, just not where they removed these.

Good looking colony.

Made my feet hurt watching him on that ladder so long.

Don


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

WLC said:


> I disagree with the opposition speaker 100%
> 
> I demand that we recognize the contributions of these true conservationists to treatment free beekeeping.
> 
> WLC.



Quit trolling please. 


Don


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

rearing bees from feral cut outs as a path to treatment free can and does work.

my bees are derived from bee tree cut outs. my supplier started with six feral colonies almost 17 years ago, has used no treatments, and has a thriving apiary which produces 100+ nucs and 100+ queens for sale each year.

i am in my third season with these bees off treatments, and so far so good, with very few losses and those mostly from queen failure.

these bees are mutts, a little bit dark in color, not overly aggressive, good honey producers, and somewhat swarmy.

i'll be taking mite counts soon to get an idea as to what levels of infestation they are tolerating.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Well, I had bees living in the walls of one of my unheated dairy barns for 20+/- continuous years.

They were always there, and they were there as late as December 2012.

This spring there were none, in any of the three distinct cavities they had long occupied. 

Broke my heart, as I knew bees were under stress for the last couple of years, but I was too preoccupied with other stuff to figure out how to care for them.

I was thrilled to discover that first two new swarms, and then a third one, reoccupied the cavities in June. They were cutout and now they live in their hives where I have a better chance to help them out, if necessary. 

(Just in case, though, I'm putting the siding back on with screws, not nails.)

Although my old bees appeared to be doing well, for years, it's possible that as a non-beekeeper I missed previous die-offs and then re-occupation by new swarms. I doubt I would have noticed that as I didn't understand the bee-biology.

When we did the cutout there were no masses of dead bees or diseased-ridden combs visible, either. The insides of the wall cavities were filled with enormous quantities of capped honey comb. I have no idea what happened to the old bees. 

The new bees (the ones now in my hives) would have appeared to a casual observer to be the same bees as last year, but they are not. They were fresh swarms this year, from who knows where. They are slightly smaller than most local (hived) honey bees that I see in nearby bee yards. I have no idea if they are ferals, or just ordinary reproductive swarms.

Only time will tell if this is an improved situation for them. However I know I am enjoying caring for them.

Enj.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Bees move in, die off, wax moths open the cavity back up, bees move in, etc. I personally like when they move into my swarm traps or used equipment  It's testament to why a cavity needs to be completely sealed after a cutout is complete. I love doing cutouts, especially when you can see that the bees are noticably smaller than bees raised on large cell, I can get them on small cell right off the bat and then let them build whatever kind of comb they choose in the outer foundationless frames.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I enjoyed this video and discussion so far. I haven't been keeping bees that long in comparison to many of you. I am appreciative to read forum members views on these topics. It helps me be a better beekeeper and sets my imagination going with different scenarios. My first thought is to build a very tall narrow hive about the size of the dimensions in the video. Put some bees in it from my bees that have wintered a couple years and see if they would survive year after year without any of my beekeeper meddling after initially getting them started. I guess it would be preferable to design it so that it could be inspected by the bee inspector or me if necessary. Maybe I could build it one day in the future. 

If the hive survived for like ten years despite swarming it could be a good basis for a queen rearing operation. "Bred from survivors" with a picture of the source colony. Even if the origin of the drones was not isolated one could perhaps have some faith that there was some consistency based on years of successful healthy bees.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

virginiawolf said:


> My first thought is to build a very tall narrow hive about the size of the dimensions in the video.


How would you create the "warm side"? What direction will it face? There are very real elements that must be factored in if you want to copy the real thing.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I would probably just have a thick outside amount of wood maybe design some insulation into the walls something comparable to a cutout from a vacant house as opposed to a heated house. I have tried using tar paper for winter and not here in PA. Both have worked and not worked for me. I have imagined thicker hive bodies and hives that were designed with insulation on the boxes like a double wall. Although it may not be practical for more than a test hive. I have wondered what modifications might have impacts. Instinctually I am drawn to think a hive should be similar to as found in a tree but since the bees have done well in the sides of houses etc. Maybe being deeper inside of structures makes the temperatures more consistent. I don't live where there are redwood trees but if bees were inside a redwood tree maybe that large trunk would have benefits. There are so many variables and that is part of why Honeybees are so wondrous to me. The lack of singular methods and answers is part of what is cool about beekeeping. At this point I am still learning many basic things based on reading and what has worked so far. Re creating a hive like this would be a big jump but maybe one day. I like the hive the person made in the carved tree. This is not like the house but very cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcgA7rPgY2g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTEoGSEMTtU


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

WLC said:


> However, the fact remains, that treatment free beekeepers are reporting that they are getting actual resistant stock from cutouts, etc. .
> 
> A source of resistant stock, is a source of resistant stock.


WLC,

Perhaps we should consider trying to express these things in more probabalistic and relative terms.

We could offer: a colony that has reportedly lived without aid for say, 4 years, is more likely to have a good measure of resistance than one that has done so for 3 years.

Both are more likely to have better resistance than any bees originating in systematically treated apiaries.

These claims are dependent on the reliability of the witnesses to longevity.

Cut-outs and swarms taken from good bee country with sparse treating apiaries are likely to have better levels of resistance than cut-outs and swarms taken from near treating apiaries.

What I'm trying to get at is: let's identify the factors that increase the likelyhood that the bees will have a good measure of resistance, and state our results in (loosely quantified) probabalistic and relative terms. That will reflect the realities more closely.

It will enable us to say - without fear of contradiction - these bees are almost certainly more valuable in resistance terms than any sourced from treating beekeepers. 

Mike (UK)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is it a resistance characteristic or is it how they are kept/not kept (as in a feral colony) so they end up swarming/requeening causing broodless periods therefore varroa reproduction gaps? Is it the genes or the house they live in?


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Works for me, its where I get most of my bees. the only hives I have had mite problems with have been the ones I have paid money for. Each to their own....


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Mike:

You are aware of the 'Bond' hypothesis.

Using feral trapouts and cutouts, from colonies that have successfully overwintered, will save you one season.

It will also save you the cost of any colonies that won't overwinter.

On top of that, it's good to remove exotic species from the environment.

It has a value in terms of both time and money.

As for 'feral' swarms, there's a lower percentage that they'll overwinter successfully, but if you consider the proportion of swarms that are actually feral vs the swarms that are from managed colonies, you're still enriching for feral/resistant stock.

So, it's still better than 'bonding' any old stock.

Let's not discount the importance of actual untreated feral comb. It's valuable stuff.

It's got microflora on it that haven't been affected by any of the numerous potential hive contaminants, which includes contaminated beeswax.

So, I'd say that trapouts/cutouts that include comb from known overwintered feral colonies, are more valuable than a swarm.

But, there's nothing wrong with swarms since they are potentially feral/resistant, and besides, they're free.

Regardless, we keep hearing reports from TFBers, and these local resistant stock fit the bill. 

They can save a lot of time, money, and effort on the part of TFBers.

Too bad I don't have that option available.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

WLC said:


> As for 'feral' swarms, there's a lower percentage that they'll overwinter successfully, but if you consider the proportion of swarms that are actually feral vs the swarms that are from managed colonies, you're still enriching for feral/resistant stock.
> 
> [...]
> 
> So, I'd say that trapouts/cutouts that include comb from known overwintered feral colonies, are more valuable than a swarm.


WlC,

Unless the swarm is known/highly likely to come from a longstanding wild/feral colony... I suspect they'll bring their balance of micro-life with them and set to on starter strips the end result is the same. Good comb is good comb though - if you can persuade them to stitch it into a frame nicely...



WLC said:


> So, it's still better than 'bonding' any old stock.


I'm tempted to think bonding any old stock is probably a waste of time and effort. Do we know of any reports of success?

Certainly bonding stock known to originate in systematically treated apiaries - and that's most of it - has to be close to hopeless. 

Soft bonding might be a different story. That's probably a different topic though...

Ongoing success depends every bit as much on proximity to treating apiaries/feral colonies, and to how much attention is paid to lifting the resistant drone population.

Mike (UK)


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## Yvesrow1 (Jan 27, 2013)

Hope for him he found the Queen, 
Thank You for sharing this video clip :thumbsup:


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## scallawa (Jul 6, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> i'll be taking mite counts soon to get an idea as to what levels of infestation they are tolerating.


I would be very interested to see what your counts are. It would be nice to see some counts of those who are not treating so we can get an idea of what levels of mite infestation they are successfully living with.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Here's one where Solomon checked into it
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...e-and-Worker-Brood-in-a-Treatment-Free-Colony


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

A huge wall cavity full of old black smelly comb is extremely attractive to swarms as anyone with swarm traps knows--and a swarm can move in short order when no one is home so the fifty years thing is pretty doubtful 

I hear the "bond" method touted around but it is SO overly simplistic. All the "Method" is natural selection with no modifying factors --sure you can breed bees from ones that lived from last year ad infinitum, but that doesn't get to the matter at hand which is why they survived-maybe they had more food stores, maybe the queen was a young queen and there was a break in laying to slow down the mites, maybe the winter wasn't so bad etc. Left to nature alone evolution of any measurable sort takes many thousands of years 

Unless someone can take such techniques and have a clear MOP method of procedure you really do not know if the stock is really mite risistant or not. That combined with dealing with only small numbers of hives does not take into account other abnomalities/ reasons for survival including those outlined above. I would be interested to read about anyone doing larger scale studies out there


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

xcugat said:


> I hear the "bond" method touted around but it is SO overly simplistic. All the "Method" is natural selection with no modifying factors --sure you can breed bees from ones that lived from last year ad infinitum, but that doesn't get to the matter at hand which is why they survived-maybe they had more food stores, maybe the queen was a young queen and there was a break in laying to slow down the mites, maybe the winter wasn't so bad etc. Left to nature alone evolution of any measurable sort takes many thousands of years


This is a misapprehension. Evolution works on every time scale. Specific to this issue, it works continuously in each generation through sexual recombination, allowing the 'best fitted' genes in every generation to make the bulk of the next. 

By that method natural selection constantly updates, and retunes each population to its environment.

That basic understanding that sits at the foundation of all animal (and plant) husbandry (breeding). 



xcugat said:


> Unless someone can take such techniques and have a clear MOP method of procedure you really do not know if the stock is really mite risistant or not.


The colony is _more likely_ to have higher resistance the longer it has been there - so reliable witnesses are helpful. If no information is available it can be regarded as _likely_ better resistant than any bought package or treating apiary swarm, on this basis: package bees and apiary swarms - especially commercial apairy swarms are _likely_ to be *as low in resistance as it is possible to get*.

That's the outcome of systematic treating.



xcugat said:


> That combined with dealing with only small numbers of hives does not take into account other abnomalities/ reasons for survival including those outlined above.


It doesn't matter what the reason for survival is - if you have 'survivor' bees you have first class stock for beginning a breeding program. They wouldn't be surviving if they weren't mite resistant to a valuable degree.



xcugat said:


> I would be interested to read about anyone doing larger scale studies out there


You could begin by following up the links from the links page on my website, url below.

Mike (UK)


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

Thanks for the response but I beg to differ Mike

I regards to my "misapprehension" regarding evolutionary animal husbandry I would have to say that the methods outlined by most people who favor the treatment free approach come nowhere close to the level of analysis and detailed record keeping done by say horse breeders for instance. You would need to work to find definitive traits that you were looking for say mite resistance--through "TESTING" rather than assuming that they, because they have existed for several years are defacto mite resistant. 

In addition, breeding for specific traits is very common in many animals, look at homing pigeons for instance, but these are being bred to be a certain physical way, rather than to modify their behaviour against a certain recently introduced foe (changing grooming behavior for instance. )

A colony that has been around for at least 3 years in my book may have some mite resistance as you say but it is silly to assume anything in this business, which is what I was getting at in my initial post. For example "surviving" 3 years with mild winters and small clusters that have small honey reserves is more of a fluke rather than wonderful mite resistant bees, and even if they were resistant as defined by actual data collection, would these be the bees that, in the long run would make a all around good bee--I should think not


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

xcugat said:


> .. the methods outlined by most people who favor the treatment free approach come nowhere close to the level of analysis and detailed record keeping done by say horse breeders for instance.


Depends which horse breeder you're talking about, and what they want from the offspring.

If you're breeding zillion dollar racehorses I dare say you make every test in the book. If you're breeding everyday workhorses you'll use your eyes, your judgement, your notebooks.



xcugat said:


> You would need to work to find definitive traits that you were looking for say mite resistance--through "TESTING" rather than assuming that they, because they have existed for several years are defacto mite resistant.


Its not an assumption, just simple logic. How would a colony that thrives for three years among other bees carrying varroa not be mite resistant? 

At the very least it would have *better chance* of being significantly resistant than any hive that didn't survive and thrive (under non-treatment). That puts it high in the ratings as a breeder. 

*If you are in the game of raising resistance*



xcugat said:


> In addition, breeding for specific traits is very common in many animals, look at homing pigeons for instance, but these are being bred to be a certain physical way, rather than to modify their behaviour against a certain recently introduced foe (changing grooming behavior for instance. )


Its precisely the same process: identify those with the desired trait (ability to thrive in an environment containing varroa): breed them.



xcugat said:


> A colony that has been around for at least 3 years in my book may have some mite resistance as you say but it is silly to assume anything in this business, which is what I was getting at in my initial post. For example "surviving" 3 years with mild winters and small clusters that have small honey reserves is more of a fluke rather than wonderful mite resistant bees...


Any colony that *thrives* for 3 years in a mite infested environment has a significant measure of mite resistance, and is better breeding material than any bees that need treatment - if treatment free beeking is what you're after.

Here in the TF section that is a given.



xcugat said:


> ... and even if they were resistant as defined by actual data collection ...


The thriving for 3 years is the data collection....



xcugat said:


> ... would these be the bees that, in the long run would make a all around good bee--I should think not


Again, if treatment free is what you are after, absolutely. Keep bringing in and breeding survivors and/or bred resistant bees; keep selecting those that thrive best unaided - the best producers is a perfectly good measure. (But take care to compare like with like)

Its very simple. Lots of people are doing it. People have done it for thousands of years. *It is how we got our domesticated species*. No fancy tests needed. Quite a few hives _are_ needed - unless you have a healthy feral environment.

Mike (UK)


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

xcugat said:


> sure you can breed bees from ones that lived from last year ad infinitum,


Yes, exactly.




xcugat said:


> I would be interested to read about anyone doing larger scale studies out there


I would be very interested if someone actually did such a study. However, they all seem to be mired in treatments and mite drops and never actually asking someone who does it how they do it. We don't even need large scale. I'd take any scale.


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