# Africanized Bees



## Jaseemtp

Alex
I would not keep AHB, there is way to much risk and liabialty for doing so. If you decided to remove the bees that are living in your buildings and wanted to keep them, then requeening them would be the first thing I would do. AHB are suppose to be hard to requeen but if you reduce their numbers down enough and do not leave them with brood that they can raise their own queen with they would accept a european queen.
Now not all european honey bees are calm enough to pick and I have encountered some that were pretty nasty, I look at it as each hive has its own personality just like people.


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## MichaBees

I volunteer at an orphanage in Mexico, at the copper canyon of chihuahua. I caught some swarms and did cut outs on colonies with local stock. They are aggressive to the point of just wanting to quit working them. It is not uncommon to have 300 stingers on each glove for a full days work with the mean bees. It can be intimidating to see all those bees trying to sting you and to know that if they could, you would be killed. 
Would I raise queens there? -absolutely no. I bring queens from certified queen producers from central Mexico that guarantee no Africanization on their stock. 
To re queen is difficult but can be done. Finding the queen is almost impossible for they love to run and just "pour" out of the hive just to attack you. I usually wait until I have good weather, good flow and good population. I make 3 frame nucs without looking for the queen, but making sure that they are equalized in population and resources. You take the nucs a good distance away into another apiary. I wait a few days and then, walk with my docile queens on hand. As you open the hive, you place the new queen cage on top and you will notice the queen less nucs welcoming the new girl like crazy. The nuc that does not welcome it, has the mean queen. Once you find the mean queen you can just kill her, wait a few days and give them a new mama. Some times they do kill the new queens but, if you pull a frame with pupa and some honey, shake of all bees and carefully install your queen on a 4"x4"x1" wire care with a 2"x3/8" clear plastic hose filled with candy where the border of your honey and pupa is; you may have up to 95% chances that the queen will be accepted. As the new bees are emerging, they all assume that's their mama and the colony just takes care of her since she starts laying eggs where the new empty cells became available. If you do not want that many weak nucs, after you find your mean mama, you can just reunite the bees into a big nuc or colony or as many as your resources will allow you to. 
Do not keep them close to you or your family and pets. They are mean and will attack you and everyone for hours after each inspection. 
I do find them extremely productive and resistant to all disses, plus, they do manage resources well and know how to handle harsh winters. I have not seen the swarming everyone describes as a characteristic behavior of these bees. Even with their high productivity and their survivor ability; I prefer my weak, non productive tame bees in the USA.


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## alexanderbuzzsaw

*Re: Americanized Bees*

I have no dealing with honey bees at all my Dad raised them but I had other things on my mind. I started SIX MILE PIC N PAC PRODUCE and I need the bees I have had in the eave bees for about 3 years and there is a lot of them and also in shop wall those bees have been there for about 3 months, well my wife wants’ them gone so I have to get them in a bee hive. I built my own bee vac, made my own broad and supers and have a complete bee suit so I think I'm ready to get them. I put smoke on the ones st the shop and it did not calm them down they got right down mad and swarm me. I called the wife not to hang around the shop where we park are vehicles cause I pissed of the bees. Three hours later she came home and I met her at the front deck and the bees where right behind her and I told her run and she started waving her hands and running her ass off but one did get her on the finger and had to be a fast bee because her hands were travailing a 100 miles an hour and that's when she said the bees are me well I’ve had the wife for 43 years and the bees three months’ I know I have to put the dog in the house cause he was stung too and he's around the corner not even insight of the hive. When I start opening up the wall and start vacuum them out they going to go crazy with all that noise so do I start the vacuum and as I start tearing into the wall at the same time getting the end of the hose and start sucking them out of mid air also I will doing this as soon as the wife goes to work and let her know not to park under the carport and come through the other gate which is about 70 feet away. So do you have some kind of plan to do a bee vac for AB 
Thanks


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## bendriftin

I am not necessarily raising AHB but have gotten several hives of them over the last couple years. In my opinion putting a EHB queen in does seam to immediately calm them down a bit. Finding the queen in an AHB hive can be very frustrating though. First of all the queens tend to be a bit more prone to play hide and seek with you and will disappear in the blink of an eye. I have had pretty good luck shaking all the bees into a hive body with just a few frames in it then placing all the brood and supers above an excluder. Then I smoke the bees up. Now to answer your questions. when mowing around the bear fence to keep it from shorting out on the weeds we tend to do this at night when we have known hives that are pissy. I have walked into some yards that have an AHB hive without a bee suit and worked some of the other hives in that yard without gloves without a single sting. Then other yards I have gone in and they are on you the second you get out of the truck, so it depends a great deal on how far you can get from them. When a bear has been knocking their hive over you can't get within 200 ft. AHB have some really good traits to go with their bad. They emerge from cells two days earlier so this helps to keep Varroa mites low. They tend to groom each other well as well express great hygenic behavior. The queens will often lay like crazy. I have used AHB colonies to increase numbers with moderate luck. As long as you keep the colonies small they are great for making lots of splits, but when you forget to check to make sure your queen cell took or miss splitting an AHB hive for a few months well they can be a royal pain in the butt. I am thinking of moving back to TX to work in the oilfield and will probably get some more AHB hives strictly for increasing my numbers and then requeen them prior to returning to CO.


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## Lburou

alexanderbuzzsaw said:


> ...snip... I can set out about 3 to 4 feet and not bother them just watch them and of course I have my bee suit on and start attacking me for no reason at all and I have seen video on EHB and they even pick them up and with no bee suit.


Alexander, if you live or work in the building with those bees and have to get that close before getting thier attention, they may be 'defensive' bees but not necessarily 'Africanized' bees. Your bees do, however, sound pretty defensive. The Africanized bees genes are pretty watered down by the time they get to North America, with some colonies still showing very defensive (some say aggressive) behavior.

I can get my nose right down to the entrance of my hives with no problem....as long as my body is on the side of the hive. If I get directly in their flight paths in front of the hives when the bees are coming and going during the day, that is another story entirely. They will buzz my head and butt my head and face and finally sting if I don't move away. Your location relative to the hive entrance might be a factor in your experience. 

Sometimes it is advisable to mow with protection (some mow in the dark). _IF you actually have Africanized bees, _you should keep them where they will not come into contact with livestock, wildlife or people. That probably means you do not want to keep Africanized bees and would want to requeen. For a beginner, it is inadvisable for you to keep Africanized bees. 

P.S. Move slowly, wear light colored clothes and don't shout (don't let the dog bark at them either) while you are close to the bees.


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## alexanderbuzzsaw

You know come to think about it the bees on the back porch in the eave never really bothered me for about 2 ½ years I could mow and weed eater. About 3 months ago I was mowing and the bees where hitting me and not stinging then one stung me on the ear and I put on my bee suit and now when I mow I wear my bee suit and there all around me, maybe at first they were EHB and was taken over by AHB.
Now at the shop I have a very strong feeling these are AHB because where I sat to watch them I’m not in their flight patch and make no noise just setting and watching and I would say within about 10 mints there all over me. 
I would hate to think I had to kill these bees even if there AHB because we will have to deal with them in the future so I’m going to try and vacuum them up and move them on the back acre which would be around 300 feet from the house. 
Should I vacuum them up after dark has anybody done this before?
Thanks for all your responses me being new and never caught a swarm are use a vacuum to suck them up is really put a strain on my nerves.


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## Lburou

How long have you had the dog?


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## alexanderbuzzsaw

About three years the bees were already there when we got him as a puppy had to bottle feed him, now my cousin has a black dog and they really got after his butt and I didn't know the dog could run that fast and he is a black dog. My dog is almost all white with a little brown and he has only been stung once in the ear.


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## AmericasBeekeeper

Welcome ABS!


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## Lburou

Good luck with your bees, I'm not sure what to recommend.


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## beenut46

get rid of the bees before someone gets hurt.If you vacum the bees and only moved them 3oo ft the bees would beat you back to the old location ,need to move a couple of miles.The ahb is not worth keeping .


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## Paul McCarty

Most of what people think of being AHB in North America are just watered down hybrids - as mentioned before. Yes, there are some truly nasty ones out there, but all in all, they are mostly a big hub-bub unless you live in South Texas or Florida (funny that those states are the ones killing off the wild colonies). Just re-queen your mean or overly runny bees. 

In general the influx of African genetics has made the feral bees much hardier than they used to be. Most of them I run across in my region would all be considered VSH bees at this point. Requeen any hive that is extremely runny, overly defensive, or makes a bearded collar around the hive when opened. Those are the signs of too much African in my parts. True Brazilian AHB are very rare. For every 6 feral hives I remove I would say 1 is too aggressive.

Don't rely on the USDA info to identify them. Most I have seen do not act like that - and a lot of what people think are AHB are really just regular mean old EHB. They can be mean and aggrssive too. Lot's of the ferals also have some AMM in them too - they are worse than the AHB.

Don't forget - There are several strains of African genetics that were already in our country from ages ago before the arrival of Brazilian AHB. There were the Egyptian, the Spanish/Iberian, and the Tunisian bees in varying amounts depending on your region. And in the 1960's the good old US Government bred them and shipped them around for pollination purposes. So they have been here for a while and are nothing new.

All of this is my opinion, take it or leave it. Michabees actually messes with the real deal Brazilian bees most likely down in Mexico. He is a very wise man.

As far as your bees go, they may just be defensive because it is Fall. I just removed a hive that was largely an AMM-ish bee, and they were hitting us 200 feet out before we ever got to the tree. If they are Brazilian AHB, they usually beard on the outside of the hive in large numbers - those are the guards.


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## cerezha

Well
I had a disagreement with my bee-club about AHB. The majority of club members stated that all SoCal feral bees are africanized. They even petition against bees in Los Angeles. I personally is very concern regarding "africanization" since my bees are feral/survivor and in populated urban environment. In accordance of my bee-club fellows they ARE africanized by definition... immediate re-queening was suggested. From another hand, I read bunch of posts in numerous bee-forums - apparently, EHB demonstrates defensive behavior as well... My "africanized" bees (three bees) patrols my backdoor for 3-7 days after inspection. All other time, I am having tea-party withing beehive's proximity in my garden every day. I could watch my bees from 1 foot (side of beehive) for 5-10 min (did not try longer). When I mastered my inspection technique - bees become much calmer and show less protection. September inspection was something - I even did not take a pictures of beautiful comb they created! So, I am living with this africanized bees for one year. I got approximately 10-15 stings (most accidental and not during/after inspection). My wife got one from neighbor's agitated bee in garage. I do believe that my cat got at least one since she disappears every time bee is around. So, AHB or not AHB? May be SMHB? Sergey


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## Paul McCarty

If they are not overly aggressive, or runny and difficult to work - who cares if they are African in origin. That's what we want right?

People, especially new people, have a tendency to read a few books or websites and accept them as dogma. Very few people advocate for the wild, feral bees. Those are the bees that will save the industry from genetic bottlenecks. You can't breed out the ferals and have bees that tolerate mites and disease too. Not enough diversity. After these wild bees are worked and bred for a few years, they will be the new domestic bees and it will benefit all. Can't do that by killing them all because of fear.

Besides, most people would be shocked at the results if they sent their sweet little EHB bees out for a DNA test.


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## alexanderbuzzsaw

After reading all the post I have decided to help them survive I will bee vac them and move them to the back of the acre and there will be two broad boxes and not worry about a honey super . I will only get the ones at the shop the bee’s in the back of the house I will leave until next spring. I know I will have to feed the bees for winter because they have only been there for 3 months. I will take video and post Thanks for all the comments


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## Lburou

I have been trapping bees with Dwain Cleveland (who designed the bee vacuum sold by Dadant). I've learned quite a bit from him about how the bees are frequently injured by the vacuum and how his design reduces that injury. 

Injure the queen and you could lose the entire colony at this time of year. What can you do to reduce injury to the bees? Study the bee vacuum design here. The big thing that will reduce injury is using a larger diameter hose (not the 1.25 inch size). 

The traditional way to relocate a hive is to move it three miles so the foragers do not come back to the original site. If you move them 300 feet, its a little more difficult to succeed. You'll want to confine the bees for a day or so and pile grass, branches, leaves and such over the entrance so they get the idea that something is different when you do release them.


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## alexanderbuzzsaw

When I move them I will put brush in front of the entrance and also will cage them up for a while. I will be putting all the broad and cone in the frames with rubber bands, so it will be two broads and with no queen excluder right are should I put the bottom on then the broad and the queen excluder and another broad and the top. Thanks for all the comments


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## Lburou

alexanderbuzzsaw said:


> When I move them I will put brush in front of the entrance and also will cage them up for a while. I will be putting all the broad and cone in the frames with rubber bands, so it will be two broads and with no queen excluder right are should I put the bottom on then the broad and the queen excluder and another broad and the top. Thanks for all the comments


Holding the honey comb in the frames with good rubber bands is OK (I'd recommend wire if youhave it) . You have no reason for an excluder at this point. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "should I put the bottom on then the broad and the queen excluder and another broad and the top." So, I'll shoot in the dark here to respond. 

Have the hive body on the bottom board when you start (reduce the entrance to the hive to an inch or two). Put the combs in the frames and place them into the empty hive body (honey on the outside, pollen frames next and brood frames in the center.

If you have enough comb for two hive bodies, put most of the brood combs with eggs in the lower hive body and more honey combs in the upper hive body (you probably won't have that much comb). Put the top cover on and check them for eggs or queen cells in a week. If you see eggs or queen cells (better research what they look like), the queen is there and laying. If no eggs, look for queen cells. If you don't see eggs in ten days or a queen cell on your seven day check, order a queen. HTH


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## Paul McCarty

If you keep them, just keep an eye on their demeanor - you are in Texas after all. If they get too hot or show the other tell-tale signs, just strain them through a queen excluder and smash the old queen. Just keep them someplace away from people until you know for sure.

If you cut them out, keep an eye on their behavior. If they run from you and clump in a big mass, or drip from the combs in clumps, you should really think about a new queen. If they attack you in larger than usual numbers, use soapy water on them. I usually give the feral hives I remove a chance to prove themselves though, if at all possible. They should show their true colors in a month or so. Remember - runny bees that drip from comb in clumps, bearding/collaring on the super when it is opened, excessive "crawlyness" with bees all over the ground (and you), Bees that fly en-masse when the hive is opened, excess defensive behavior, and jarring or tapping the hive which brings an immediate reaction to ALL of the bees. These bees will usually festoon down under the frames when lifted from the hive too. Smoke usually just scares them and makes their runny drippy behavior worse. Any of these signs - order a new queen. 

Where is Port LaVaca anyway? They say the further East you go in Texas, the less you encounter true Brazilian hybrids. Supposedly they stop completely somewhere in the Piney Woods region. All hear-say I have run across.


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## TooFarGone

Paul M

What is AMM?

Hey, I know where Port LaVaca is, it is right next to Seadrift! (Used to compete in the Texas Water Safari, finished at Seadrift)- Actually about 30 miles east of Victoria on the gulf coast, south of Houston...

Here is another highly regarded bee vac (no personal experience with it, but the one I will probably build)

BRAIN FART- Edited to add link to the Bushkill Bee Vac

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/bee-vac/


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## Lburou

TooFarGone said:


> Paul M
> 
> What is AMM?





Beesource glossary said:


> *AMM *(Apis _Millifera Millifera_):The European dark bee (Apis _mellifera mellifera_) was domesticated in modern times, and taken to North America in colonial times. These small, dark-colored honey bees are sometimes called the German black bee, although they occurred originally from Britain to eastern Central Europe.


Brother Adam concluded that the AMM is a descendant of the 'Telle' bee of Northern Africa, so, most all our bees have roots in Africa.


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## Paul McCarty

AMM - Apis Melliferia Melliferia... the old Black Bee. A lot of the wild bees in NM seem to show signs of being their descendants in my opinion- well mostly the bees you find in the pine forests up in the mountains. 

They say back in the Spanish colonial days, the Spanish brought over the Iberian bee. Those bees were a mix of AMM and Tunisian (African). I am quite convinced their descendants are what I am seeing, after they have hybridized for many generations over here.

I am overwintering 5 hives of them plus a bee tree (awaiting my Swarm Harvester for starts next season).


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## alexanderbuzzsaw

I have set there just about 5 feet away and not in their flight path and in about 3 to 5 minutes they were all around me and hitting into me. I got the smoker and put smoke on them to settle them down and they just went crazy.
Some of These bees are big and some are small I’m talking about ½ inch long does this make any since.
I need bee’s to pollinate my produce and even if there AHB I still need them.
What if I put up an 8 foot wall where I put the hive so they cannot see anybody from the front or even put the wall on all three sides and leave the back open would this help.
I will take pictures of the bee’s and post them won’t be till Wednesday, right now I’m out of town and won’t be back till Wednesday. Thanks to all of you for the support and remarks I’m not into killing anything unless it enters the house then its war but only what enters the house!
I live where there are rattle snakes and they don’t scare me half as much as these AHB!
I have stepped on rattle snakes and never gotten bit also most of the time they will let you know that you’re to close so for closing two things I’m afraid of ABH and SPIDERS!


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## Jaseemtp

Alex,
If you are going to go through the trouble of removing them and them trying to put them into a hive, requeen them. Now your a big boy and can do what ever you want but that's my suggestion. I understand the need for bees on your place but it does not warrant over aggressive bees. 
So rehive them and kill the queen and install a queen from a reputable supplier.
Or kill them and purchase some nucs or packages in the spring


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## alexanderbuzzsaw

I will take your suggestion and kill the queen but should I buy the new queen first and then when I get her in kill the ABH queen
Thanks


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## Lburou

Killing any queen before you have the replacement in hand puts you in a bind if there is a problem supplying the new queen, so get the new queen first.


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## alexanderbuzzsaw

Thanks I will do that


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## Paul McCarty

I definitely don't recommend defensive bees to a person who has been around bees for long.


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## alexanderbuzzsaw

Well thats ok I was going to get them anyway just wonted someone who had used a vac on ABH and what the effect was Thanks for all the input.


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## Jaseemtp

using a vac on just about any honey bee removal will tick em off. if you are going to do the removal I would suggest using a little smoke but not to much as it can cause the queen to run and hide and make it more difficult to find her. 
What I would do is to perform the removals, set the devil bees up in their new hives. If you have queen excluders set them on top of the bottom boards to keep the ahb queen from leaving. wait a few days and provide them with plenty of sugar water. after you are sure they have settled in and accepted the new hive as home. order your new queens. you will be hard pressed to find queens this time of year of you are planning on doing the removal now. Something you can do is if you have to get them out now is go ahead and do it as stated above and just leave their queen until spring. in spring their numbers will be lower and they will be more likely to accept a new queen. again this is just what i would do and your milage may vary


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## alexanderbuzzsaw

That's what I will do I have to get them out that's my woodshop and also where I store my dryed wood. I harvest my own lumber to sell and also sell wood chips and barbeque wood so the bees have to be moved.
Thanks


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## Jaseemtp

do you have the equipment to place them in hives? When you perfom the removal make sure some one knows where you are and what you are doing. It would be helpful if you found some one in you local bee club to maybe be brave / crazy enough to help you.
by setting the queen excluder ontop of your bottom board you allow the workers to come and go but keep the queen contained. then set you hive bodies ontop of the queen excluder. I would then do my best to feed them so that they make it through winter with as big a cluster as possible. If you try to cut and save the honey comb you will be in for a big big mess. One thing you could do was after the removals and the bees are setteled in, just open feed the honey back to them. down that far south Texas you should still have plenty of warm weather ahead of you.


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## Lburou

Jaseemtp said:


> ...snip... If you try to cut and save the honey comb you will be in for a big big mess. One thing you could do was after the removals and the bees are setteled in, just open feed the honey back to them...snip...


I would mount the brood comb in frames for sure, if not, the bees won't have any reason to stay in your new hive. Once you have brood combs in there, its not much more trouble to fill the hive body with combs containing pollen and honey to give them a kick start. JMO As stated, your mileage may vary. 

Let us know hwow it worked out.


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## TooFarGone

Link to a frame for holding cut-out brood:

http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/removeable-swarm-catching-frames/

I forgot to paste the link for the Bushkill bee vac- you could build one pretty easily. Read his descriptions on its use, particularly the parts about adding back brood and honey. If I were in your shoes, I would put a queen excluder between the boxes to limit the number of frames you have to look at to find the queen. 

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/bee-vac/

I really like the UltraBreeze bee suit, pricy but has full length leg zippers:

http://ultrabreezesuits.com/

Mann Lake and Pigeon Mountain bee suits- similar to above but no full length leg zippers(It gets Dang hot where you live)
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/page110.html

http://www.pigeonmountaintrading.com/Category/1-22636-ventilated-bee-wear.aspx

Hope it helps.


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## alexanderbuzzsaw

I have look called searched for anyone to help me with no luck and the one’s I ask said H_ _ L no so I’m on my own. I know I will have to put my dog up in the house and he won’t like that but at least he will be alive. I have all it takes to get the bees my concern is I will be tearing into the wall and using the smoke as I do it. I have to vacuum up the bees and then get the broad out and the honey comb and wire it to the frames. I’m not going to keep any for myself the bees get it all. 
I have noticed in the evening around 4:30 pm there coming in with pollen and not just a few bees either.
I will be getting them right after the wife goes to work which is 8 am no sooner are no later 8 am on the dot she goes to work. 
After I get the bees and put the broad in and the honey comb do I have to leave the hive there over night I would sure like to move them A.S.A.P.


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## Paul McCarty

I use a bee-vac on aggressive bees all the time. Just have to make sure you are suited up good with lots of layers and the cracks are all sealed. There is a tipping point in bee mass, where they decide they are doomed and give up the fight. Usually it is when you are about halfway done.

If they are too aggressive, I just destroy them with soapy water. Usually these are the hives that hit me right off with 200+ guards or more. A couple of dozen head butters are sort of expected when I destroy their home; those bees don't bother me and usually calm down when I hive them. The others - history!

When you remove them - vac, vac, vac... then use a little smoke to get them off the comb you want to cut, cut it and repeat until done. It's much easier to have a helper to strap the removed comb into empty frames, but I have done it alone before. It just takes longer and makes things more complicated. I have found big rubber bands and foundationless frames are the best for me for installing removed brood comb. All you need is a few pieces of brood comb and you can just scrape out the rest and feed it back to them. Especially if they are attacking you. Just have to make sure you get all of it. Ice chests work best for putting the honey/comb into.

Make sure someone knows you are doing it and are around to help or at least call 911.


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## TooFarGone

I have never done any of this, but it seems like putting the bee vac up to the opening where they are coming out for 10 or 15 minutes might be a good idea. If they came out with smoke, I might then put in a little smoke to get more of them contained in the vacuum before trying ot open the wall. The Bushkillfarms bee vac sucks them directly into a hive body so you don't have to transfer them later.

I would probably have a pump sprayer full of soapy water pressurized and ready to go in case you needed to invoke the nuclear option....

Bushkill use video (I am not related to these guys, just looks like a great idea, and you can build your own)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjA04sbZoxg&NR=1&feature=endscreen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Mkg0jg9L-J8&feature=endscreen

A Youtube video of the system in use
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYjPMFtRSnY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMGeaEcQI-k&NR=1&feature=endscreen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODrQ...om/watch?v=ODrQpqhKibQ&NR=1&feature=endscreen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODrQpqhKibQ&NR=1&feature=endscreen


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## alexanderbuzzsaw

That’s the beevac I made and going to use and I may wait till this weekend to get the bee’s. I’m trying to get the wife to set in the car about 50 feet away and watch me. I will have a sprayer there full of soapy water incase things go south on me. I will have video on it and I will post it. Thanks for all the help.


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## Justi

Paul McCarty said:


> AMM - Apis Melliferia Melliferia... the old Black Bee. A lot of the wild bees in NM seem to show signs of being their descendants in my opinion- well mostly the bees you find in the pine forests up in the mountains.
> 
> They say back in the Spanish colonial days, the Spanish brought over the Iberian bee. Those bees were a mix of AMM and Tunisian (African). I am quite convinced their descendants are what I am seeing, after they have hybridized for many generations over here.
> 
> I am overwintering 5 hives of them plus a bee tree (awaiting my Swarm Harvester for starts next season).


Would you sell a queen or 2


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## Rader Sidetrack

*This is a 9 year old thread!*

Note: Reactivating an ancient thread to ask a _question to a specific member_ does a disservice to all the other members of the forum who are using the "What's New" forum feature to monitor new activity.

I suggest use of the 'Private Message' / 'Conversation' / 'Message' feature of this forum to contact individual members. At a given posted message, click on the MemberID, then choose "Message" to start a new Private Conversation.

This thread is closed to replies.


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