# To give a queencell, or not to give a queen cell?



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I would suspect that the old queens would search out and kill the queen cells that you introduce. I think I would kill the old queens as I put in the queen cells. Give it a thought, and what opinion does anyone else here have?


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Ray,

A common way to requeen a hive is to place a ripe queencell in the top super. The new virgin queen will emerge, then kill the old queen. From what I understand about this is that the key to success is placing it in the supers when there is a flow on. If you place it near the brood nest, the old queen will kill the new queen in her cell.

What I don't know is if it is to early to do this, or if I should wait until the flow is winding down.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

IndianaHoney said:


> What I don't know is if it is to early to do this, or if I should wait until the flow is winding down.


Add cells when the flow is going strong. Use cell protectors.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I'd love to have someone do this with older marked queens. I'd be interested in finding out the kill rate of the old queens. I have never requeened in this manner, but have some doubts about its effectiveness. Young queens are not always the victor, and it seems if there would be risks in injured virgins who then need to go on mating flights. I would be interested in the kill rate and the success rate of a hive going to queenright, compared to just removing the queen manually. Interesting.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

to remove queens and add a cell right before a flow might be a good move.
judge your hives as to wich are best and worst performers. pick a couple duds and break them down into nucs, two brood one stores and add cell or your best preforming queens.


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## jeff123fish (Jul 3, 2007)

*swarming?*

wouldn't this method just make the bees think that it is just time to swarm?


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

I'm sure if it was done durring the spring they would think it is time to swarm. From what I have read and been told, there are lots of commercial guys that requeen this way, although this would be my first time trying it.

Lets get MB's opinion on this. I thought that he had agreed that this would work, but I could be wrong.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Indiana honey: why not conduct this experament? It would be great to see. Graft yourself another round just in case for insurance reason. Try it!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BjornBee said:


> I would be interested in the kill rate and the success rate of a hive going to queenright,


This is common practice in Florida, and I'm told is about 70% successful. I know one Florida/New York beekeeper who claims 80%. I've done it when I had extra cells. I was changing over to a new darker strain. I'd say it worked pretty well, although I can't give you any figures. One thing, I tried requeening with cells once when there wasn't a good flow on. I don't think any of them worked.


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Correct, there has to be a good flow on. I have three queens that are marked. I'll try it with all my hives, but will see what happens with those queens.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Give it a go Indiana, I'd be interested in hearing your success rate.

You say place the cell in a super, would there need to be a full super of honey/nectar above the broodnest, as a seperator between the older queen and the new cell?

Thanks!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Indiana...

As for the other question you had, I'd suspect it would help increase the honey production for you, having a virgin queen during the flow, because of reducing brood to feed as the flow is coming in.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

mark as many more of those seventeen other queens you can find to get a better test.
if your old queen isn't marked it can be very hard to know whether you got the hive requeened or not.


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Good point stangardner. As for the other seventeen, I have more hives but only enough queencells for 20. The good thing is that I have another marked queen in a hive that I gave a cell to one week ago. The queen should have emerged Tuesday. I remembered marking her when I made splits a while back. This requeen was just a test run for me. It is only one deep with a laying queen that likes to run a hide, but she is a great honey producer. I wanted to get rid of her because she hides on the bottom board in a corner everytime I open the hive. I'll check back with them in another 10 days and to see what happened. I don't expect that one to have worked because it was so close to the brood nest.

It might also be of interest to note that a few days ago I had a queen that emerged in the incubator. I visited a hive to see if another queen had emerged, and I mistakenly broke the queen cell with the developing queen in it. I gave them the emerged queen and they started grooming her right away. This split was made four days before this happened, and only had capped brood. Just to be on the safe side, I gave them another queen cell as well. Before anyone makes any assumptions, it might also be worth noting that the emerged queen was a sister to the queen in the queen cell, and she had emerged the night before. The reason I mention this is because I have always read that it is hard to get a hive to accept a emerged virgin queen. Was it that she was a sister and smelled the same? Or was it because they felt desperate for a queen? I'd like to also run a test next summer to see if hives having no hope of raising a queen with the brood they have, are desperate enough for a queen that they will accept a non-caged virgin. Maybe someone has already tested this theory?

I can tell you one thing; learning to raise queens has opened up a whole new world of learning. Now if I can just figure out how to get them through the winter with less than a 50% loss....


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

IndianaHoney said:


> I'll check back with them in another 10 days and to see what happened.....


Often, when a colony supercedes, both queens will continue to lay. Maybe 10 days isn't really long enough. If both queens are there, and you spot the marked one, you'll figure that the procedure didn't work.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Mike Palmer said:

> Often, when a colony supercedes, both queens will continue to lay. 

Exactly. MUCH more often than anyone suspects.
This two-queen situation can last for an entire season

> If both queens are there, and you spot the marked one, you'll 
> figure that the procedure didn't work.

Again, a very astute observation.

I've looked at this with some care over several hundred hives over
several years, as requeening became "mission-critical" when drone
fertility generally decreased due to a general approach of miticide 
misuse at the queen producers, and I was tired of paying for 110
or 120 queens just to get 100 to "take".

The old "battle to the death" certainly is possible if one drops two
virgins into a container, but requeening without removal of the
laying queen will often result in the WORKER bees balling or otherwise
"rejecting" the new queen. In at least 10% of my hives I could find
two laying queens, most often mother/daughter. 

The process seems to be far too variable to define as anything other
than a spectrum of approaches to "supercedure". But the old canard
about a laying queen killing anything? Forget it. The "court" will
keep her laying, and out of trouble. A fighting laying queen puts the 
entire hive at risk of perishing, as BOTH contestants could end up
dead or mortally wounded.

So, it is my theory, and my theory alone that many "requeening
problems" are not due to the bees refusing to accept a new queen,
but instead are due to the failure of the beekeeper to remove BOTH
queens before putting in the new queen.

Finding the queen can be tough, and finding the OTHER queen can
been even tougher, but you only find the 2nd queen if you look for her.


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

So basicly it is doomed to failure?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>This is common practice in Florida, and I'm told is about 70% successful. I know one Florida/New York beekeeper who claims 80%. I've done it when I had extra cells. I was changing over to a new darker strain.

Those are the numbers I've heard quoted. I haven't kept careful records, but I'd say my results have been more like 50% and as stated, you often end up with a two queen hive. But that's not a bad thing and the older one is usually the one gotten rid of later.

I wouldn't say it's "doomed to failure". It's actually not a bad way to end up with two queen hives and has been used by some simply for that purpose.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

IndianaHoney,
I understand that Dee Lusby does lots of her requeening by releasing virgin queens into the hives to be requeened, without removing the reigning queen, or even opening the hive. I believe she does this during a honeyflow. Though it has been awhile since I read about the Lusby's requeening methods and I may be mistaken.

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Update: I have been searching trying to find the reference to Lusby's using virgin queen introduction as requeening method. If anyone knows where this reference may be located, if at all, please let me know.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

The procedure is called forced supercedure and it works best when the old queen is on the decline.
It is also called re-queening without de-queening.
You might consider making a divide on top of the hive using a split board or Cloake Board and after the new queen is mated and has some brood unite them an let nature take its course. You will find out that the bees in the upper brood nest will destroy the older queen. The law of averages is with the new queen.
Regards,
Ernie Lucas Apiaries


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*beeworks.com*

http://www.beeworks.com/informationcentre/requeening.html

Forced Superscedure.
A new way of re-queening for the busy keeper with lots of hives, dependent on a supply of ripe queen cells, more successful when a flow is on.

A ripe queen cell is placed in the center of the brood nest, held in place and protected by a cell protector. The cell is kept warm by the natural order of things and in due course the virgin emerges, mates and takes over the old queens position.

A number of points, first it works on an older queen who is about to be replaced. Secondly the cell protector is vital, if the bees didn't put the cell there, then its in the way and going to be removed by the house bees.

Thirdly, to really prove that this system works it is imperative that the old queen was marked, otherwise it takes a very practiced eye to note a young queen from an old one.

Finally, the virgin is quite safe, once she has emerged it is very rare that the bees will remove her, provided she's healthy, of course.

Regards,
Ernie Lucas Apiaries


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Cloake Board Method of Queen Rearing and Banking*

Fyi:
http://www.leedsbeekeepers.org.uk/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=225

Rearing your own queens is one of the more interesting and rewarding aspects of beekeeping. It provides a means to -------------
Regards,
Ernie


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