# How many dead-outs are the result of the 2 types of nosema?



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

We give an awful lot of advice here about testing for mites, but I don't think I've heard much about nosema, and I'm wondering how many of our dead-out wintered hives can actually be attributed to nosema infections instead of mites. (Besides the fact that mites reduce overall immunities, of course.)

A typical beekeeper can't really know if it's nosema because it needs to be tested in the lab, and how many beekeepers do that?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Any beekeeper that wishes to get a sample from his deadout to the Beltsville lab and have the service done for the cost of postage for that sample. Be a trendsetter.


NewbeeInNH said:


> We give an awful lot of advice here about testing for mites, but I don't think I've heard much about nosema, and I'm wondering how many of our dead-out wintered hives can actually be attributed to nosema infections instead of mites. (Besides the fact that mites reduce overall immunities, of course.)
> 
> A typical beekeeper can't really know if it's nosema because it needs to be tested in the lab, and how many beekeepers do that?


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Too late, but next time.

I heard a suggestion to treat the hives prophylactically (phew, try spelling that one without a checker) with Fumagillin as they go into winter and not wait for nosema to rear its ugly head. I'm not particularly in that camp, but I do wonder if it would reduce winter dead-outs (in our northern climates). Altho I also read that Fumagillin is not effective against the ceranae strain. 

I don't know if nosema is given enough respect as a culprit.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

NewbeeInNH said:


> A typical beekeeper can't really know if it's nosema because it needs to be tested in the lab, and how many beekeepers do that?


A typical beekeeper can't really know it's mites from afar, but that doesn't stop attribution rates. I would encourage all to send in samples. The turn over rate for the results are decent, and it offers a window into their demise.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

I would think that bee testing labs would want to test dead-outs to keep a finger on the pulse (or non-pulse...) of diseases/infestations occurring in our hives. I imagine if they knew the issues sweeping our apiaries and could let us know, we might all be better prepared.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

NewbeeInNH said:


> A typical beekeeper can't really know if it's nosema because it needs to be tested in the lab, and how many beekeepers do that?


I do, bought a scope and check my bees spring and fall and in hives that are not doing well.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

camero7 said:


> I do, bought a scope and check my bees spring and fall and in hives that are not doing well.


What percent are "not doing well" and what percent do you find have high nosema counts?

Did you treat?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

NewbeeInNH said:


> We give an awful lot of advice here about testing for mites, but I don't think I've heard much about nosema, and I'm wondering how many of our dead-out wintered hives can actually be attributed to nosema infections instead of mites. (Besides the fact that mites reduce overall immunities, of course.)


I agree, an underlying major factor


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Vance G said:


> Any beekeeper that wishes to get a sample from his deadout to the Beltsville lab and have the service done for the cost of postage for that sample. Be a trendsetter.


I don't think I've ever gotten a report that distinguished between the types of nosema. But I think it's a good idea to send samples in when trying to determine the cause of a dead out. I send random apiary bee samples for testing 3 times a year to see if/when nosema is present. Beltsville also test for tracheal mites but none of my samples came back positive for those.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

I've sent in samples twice to Beltsville when I had a lot of winter deadouts. They test for varroa, tracheal and Nosema. (My problem both times was Nosema) They do not distinguish between the two Nosemas. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but Nosema Apis causes observable dysentery whereas Nosema Ceranae does not.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

NewbeeInNH said:


> I would think that bee testing labs would want to test dead-outs to keep a finger on the pulse (or non-pulse...) of diseases/infestations occurring in our hives. I imagine if they knew the issues sweeping our apiaries and could let us know, we might all be better prepared.


How do you test deadouts for nosema infection?


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> How do you test deadouts for nosema infection?


Beltsville has instructions on their website. Send in dead bees, if not decayed, soaked in alcohol.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

heaflaw said:


> Beltsville has instructions on their website. Send in dead bees, if not decayed, soaked in alcohol.


if you have staining in or on the hives and have a microscope, you can also test that for nosema.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

FlowerPlanter said:


> What percent are "not doing well" and what percent do you find have high nosema counts?
> 
> Did you treat?


I've never treated for nosema. I've had a few high counts in the fall but almost never in the spring. Interestingly, in my hives, high nosema in worker bees does not translate to brood bees. And it has little to do with winter survival in my hives. Usually about 50% have high counts in the fall, seldom find any high counts in the spring. I was pretty worried about nosema until I bought a scope and started tracking it.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

> Interestingly, in my hives, high nosema in worker bees does not translate to brood bees.


It just so happens it's Youtube Season, and I caught this interesting one on nosema from Univ. of FL yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMDN7r1SfbY

In which he says that the spores build up in the gut over time, so maybe that's why you're not seeing it in your brood bees. I also wonder if your sickest older bees have died off by spring.

I'm getting a little more worried about nosema than mites, but maybe I'm just watching too many horror flicks. Come on spring!

(It also makes me wary of switching frames into different hives, for fear I'm spreading fungal spores. Anyone else think that way?)


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Sick bees tend to fly off and die


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Little doubt in my mind that most bee colony collapse is the result of a combination of problems. Mites and the diseases they vector make the colony more susceptible to every other pressure...including nosema. As camero7 pointed out, hives with high spore counts can overwinter well....but then camero7 keeps his mites in check.
I still believe that the number one enemy is varroa. They are relatively easy, even for a newcomer to check....as opposed to nosema. And if properly managed, in my experience the bees seem to handle everything else well...with a few exceptions...afb, high pesticide exposure, starvation, queen failures.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Yes, I monitor and treat mites when they reach my threshold [6 mites/300bees]. Mostly I only treat in the fall because I don't have those big spring numbers. I certainly agree with Dan... my biggest losses are starvation [getting stuck on brood and not moving to stores] and queen failure, which seems to be a bigger problem the last couple of years. I've never had AFB in my hives and I'm not in a high pesticide area with any of my yards...


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

camero7 said:


> Sick bees tend to fly off and die


Or, in the case of Nosena C., crawl off and die.
I sometimes get a colony with crawlers, but no DWV that test high for Nosema.

Second hand, so take it for what it's worth: Our club president and his mentor/partner sent live bees to a testing facility (in MT, I think). They had 400 of 1400 colonies dwindling or dead at pre-almond count three weeks ago (we're in WA state). Samples game back at 30 million spores per bee. Suggested treatment threshold is about 5 million per. Nosema was the predominate malady found, with varying levels of other virusus.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

My belief is that Nosema C is more problematic in warm weather areas than the cold north [unless you winter indoors] I don't get many crawlers in my hives and I've never approached that high a spore count. Wonder what their mite counts were?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

if you look for the symptoms, crawlers, or if you are feeding and they refuse to take the sugar water, or lots of bees dying in the feeders, or nucs or hives that just sit their and don't progress for no apparent reason are all good indications that you may have a nosema problem.



winevines said:


> This video (I think from 2015) presents some very interesting things going on with bees and commercial pollinators- things many of us would never has considered if we've never done it. It is from the perspective of a State Apiarist from a State that brings in commercial pollinators.
> If you are short on time, skip to about minute 50. And thanks to the folks in NJ who post lots of great videos.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0rC8KnwET8


if you go to around the 35:00 min mark in the above youtube video, tony states that the best method to use is the drench method, this is what I have done to individual hives very successfully that have had problems. I even have had success with one hive that had bee paralysis, kept dosing it every 5 days and added in some Vitamin C with the fumidil, hive is still humming in it's third year with no symptoms showing back up.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> if you are feeding and they refuse to take the sugar water, or nucs or hives that just sit their and don't progress for no apparent reason are all good indications that you may have a nosema problem.


Also, in my experience, symptoms of a failing queen or queenless hive.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

This will be my first year not using fumagillin , my in yard trials are showing a overall neg effect to spore count months after treatment. My nosema infection has been diagnosed as nearly 100% nosema C. 

Right now my hives look good... With zero mites and no detectable virus, but holding a background infection of 2.9m spore count!


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

I don't know mite counts. They dribble with OA at Solstice. I can't remember if they use formic in August, but I think so. I know they have vaporizers as well. They definitely treat. The interesting observation they shared at last month's meeting was that after QA dribble, the "weak" bees died, the survivors were reduced to a couple of frames, but seemed vibrant. 
We had an unusually mild winter (for WA) in 2014/15 and dry spring, with drought in summer. This seemed to lead to an increased varroa problem. Many of those who treated after pulling supers in August, felt we needed to treat again by October.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm not feeling any less nervous about this.

This is from wiki's Nosema ceranae blurb:



> News articles published in October 2010 quoted researchers who had discovered that Nosema fungus had joined with a previously unsuspected virus, Invertebrate Iridescent Virus, or IIV6, dealing test bee colonies a lethal blow. Neither the fungus nor the virus alone kill all the test group, but the two combined do. Both the fungus and the virus are found together with high frequency in hives that have suffered CCD. Final testing is in progress with field tests on colonies.[13]
> 
> N. ceranae and N. apis have similar life cycles, but they differ in spore morphology. Spores of N. ceranae seem to be slightly smaller under the light microscope and the number of polar filament coils is between 20 and 23, rather than the more than 30 often seen in N. apis.
> 
> ...


I believe that the nosema c. strain is relatively new, to the U.S., or at least identified in the 1990s here. C. is harder to treat than a. Interestingly, it looks like the c. strain originated in Asia (Asian bees). 

2009 article: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/nosema-ceranae-not-your-fathers-nosema/

A 2015 article by the same author: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-seasonality-of-nosema-ceranae/ he finds:


> My current take on nosema is that it is an opportunistic pathogen, always there at a low level, but only becoming a problem when colonies are already stressed by chilling, viruses, poor nutrition, and perhaps environmental toxins. The effect would likely be most pronounced in colonies of aged winter bees, especially during the spring turnover. The troika of chilling, paralytic viruses, and nosema appears to be especially deadly. So it may not be that N. ceranae initiates disease, but rather that it takes advantage of weakened bees and delivers the killing blow by causing rapid abandonment of the hive by the infected bees.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Not to mention that prophylactic treatment with fumagilin may be exacerbating issues with Nosema ceranae: http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1003185


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

NewbeeInNH said:


> I'm not feeling any less nervous about this.


What would you propose one do? 
Everything I've read indicates that n ceranae (with a name like that...certainly from Asia) is now the predominant nosema in the north America. Without the obvious symptoms of dysentary...short of sending routine samples to Beltsville or buying a microscope...


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Anyone hearing of any correlation between using OA dribble and reduced nosema problems? 

OA dribble is supposed to be hard on gut of the bee and one should only apply OA by dribble once. However, in being hard on the bee gut, does OA dribble also reduce Nosema???????

I noted that Randy Oliver(in the video presentation about 3 weeks ago in a thread) eluding to possibly some correlation to reduced nosema with OA dribble. 

??????


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

beemandan said:


> What would you propose one do?


Well, I'm thinking, since I haven't heard much about this anywhere, or at least not with fear and trepidation, that maybe increased awareness will lead to spotlighting the strain of fungus and its effects, which will lead to more researchers proposing remedies. That's my hope. If we only blame varroa and neglect this issue, we might face a setback in colony health.

The other thought is we could form Nosema C. anxiety therapy groups and one would start in my area.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

NewbeeInNH said:


> I'm not feeling any less nervous about this.


My recommendation to you, is go read Randy Oliver's web site about the information he has about his take on Nosema c. I also recommend you read it sequentially if you can figure out which trials he did in order. Having read his stuff and followed him on bee-l for a very long time. He initially thought NC was extremely bad, then decided it wasn't bad, then was sure it was bad, then decided it wasn't as bad as he thought, or something along those lines. I'm not sure which way he is leaning recently. I'm not knocking him at all, if he is having trouble deciding, the collective we are going to be in the dark. What I did get out of his conversations with other pretty savvy beeks was that NC seems to affect the colder climate beeks more than the warmer climate beeks. There is also some evidence that Formic, Oxalic, and the thymol products, and a good flow of really good pollen can all affect NC, so depending on where you are, what you use, what kind of bees you have all influence your outcome. did I mention throwing in a little luck on the side. Randy has also said that he didn't feel that fumidil helped, and then said he found some benefit. so you are not going to get an answer here or probably any where else that will make you happy.
I have tried to follow the recommendations of the Ontario province web site as they more resemble our weather than the usda or Randy. good luck


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

If my memory serves me, when n ceranae was first reported in Europe...there were many failing hives attributed to it. Worldwide there were countless researchers giving it a hard look. At the end of the day, it hasn't turned out to be the disaster originally feared. Having said that...awareness isn't a bad thing.
But my take....as you can probably imagine....is to keep your bees as healthy as possible...and that starts with...varroa management. And if you've done that successfully and made sure they had vigorous queens and plenty of stores and limited exposure to pesticides....and they still collapse....then panic may be appropriate.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks, wild. Randy's recommendations from his 2015 article were: keep the bees healthy nutritionally, avoid chilling as much as possible, isolate dwindling hives, keep young queens.

Which sounds more and more like we northern beekeepers really need to move south. (Move over, beeman. We're about to infiltrate.)


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

By the way, this youtube is very informative, even tho it's by a first year beekeeper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOaMkNRjxv4

Some excellent slides of ceranae. Motivated me to try using the microscope here myself.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

mgolden said:


> Anyone hearing of any correlation between using OA dribble and reduced nosema problems?
> 
> OA dribble is supposed to be hard on gut of the bee and one should only apply OA by dribble once. However, in being hard on the bee gut, does OA dribble also reduce Nosema???????
> 
> ...


First I hear of it, but I dug up the article: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0034528815300333

Thymol also has effects against nosema. Much more than even fumagilin, at least on N. apis, according to this article: http://www.hrbka.org.uk/assets/site/documents/misc/thymol-for-nosema-paper.pdf
And also for N. ceranae specifically: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1051/apido/2009070

Fumagilin, on the other hand, slows then Nosema ceranae at first, and then accelerates it with decreasing concentrations (see previous post).


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

Has anyone here had luck with any of the "snake oils"? Nosevit or Complete? Dribble, not as feed stimulant/supplement ?


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

mgolden said:


> Anyone hearing of any correlation between using OA dribble and reduced nosema problems?
> 
> OA dribble is supposed to be hard on gut of the bee and one should only apply OA by dribble once. However, in being hard on the bee gut, does OA dribble also reduce Nosema???????
> 
> ...


 Because the OA dribble killed the weak bees?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

beemandan said:


> What would you propose one do?


Nothing?

When N. apis was the strain infecting our bees, they told us to treat when spore count rose to 1 million spores per bee. Over the years I saw colonies that I thought might have winter killed from the infection. Dysentery all over the hive, and a weak or dead colony in the spring. Didn't sample and didn't treat. 

I'm not sure when N. ceranae replaced N. apis, but in spring of 2012 I had a severe infection in a nuc apiary. The winter was similar to this year, 2015-2016. Warm. Most every colony survived the winter. The apiaries of nucleus colonies looked awesome...except one. Half the nucs were dead. The remaining half were weak with greasy looking bees that had the shakes. I tried to understand what was happening...what had I done differently with this group of nucs that caused their demise. They were made from the same brood source as the rest of the nucs I wintered that year. They had the same daughter queens as the others. I made them during the same time period as the other. I fed them the same at the same time. Very confusing.

While we were looking at the mess, a neighbor drove into the apiary, and began shaking his finger at me...I had moved in on top of his 10 colonies, and because I had, his bees failed to build up and most had crashed the previous summer and the remaining live colonies died in the winter. The lightbulb went off. I took a sample and examined under my microscope. Nosema spores are supposed to be examined at 400x. I looked at the slide at 40x, and the spores lit up like a Christmas tree. 40X! He was blaming me for the demise of his package bees, when in reality, his bees caused the demise of mine. I never moved the nucs to the apiary until July, while he said his bees, installed in May, never built up. So my bees robbed out his sick colonies and brought the infection home. I drenched the remaining bees in the apiary with fumagilin and thick syrup and they recovered.

But that's the only time I've ever used fumagilin. New York samples my bees every year, for the national survey. My spore counts are quite low, but occasionally an apiary has more than 1 million spores per bees. While that is supposed to be the treatment threshold, I haven't treated. In the spring, I can find no relation between spore count found and dead/weak colonies in the spring. 

For the last few years, the counts are very low or not detectable. The NY inspector and the Chief want to know why. They know I don't use fumagilin and wonder why my spore counts are so low, when other's have such high counts and are treating. Beats me.

Last summer, Vermont joined the national survey. At our Vermont winter meeting this past Tuesday, I asked the person running the survey, how my bees looked. Two of my apiaries sampled were the lowest for both Nosema and Varroa among all apiaries sampled. The third apiary came in fourth. While I don't know the owners of the apiaries surveyed, I saw the numbers. Very high nosema, with some varroa counts that were scary. 

All this makes me wonder what's going on. The survey samples were all taken from apiaries of 10+ colonies...half migratory apiaries and half non-migratory. While I don't know why there is such a difference in both my New York and Vermont apiaries, when compared to other apiaries in the areas, I can guess. I think I'm the only one who raises all stock from strong colonies wintered in place. I also don't requeen every colony every year. If a colony is healthy and productive, and they know how to supercede successfully year after year without having a drop in productivity, I never requeen the colony. For instance...One of my 2015 breeders came from a colony that I first established in 2001 and have never done anything to that colony but treat for varroa after the honey was removed each August. 

So, could it be that the bees can develop a resistance to Nosema?


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Interesting Michael, thank you. Resistance would be optimum, I hope you're right.

Your story about the nuc yard succumbing kind of reinforces what they say that chilled bees have a harder time resisting nosema. I wonder if the small nuc populations are more vulnerable. That would be my guess.

I think the standard answer amongst beekeepers to winter die-outs is "varroa." But maybe not necessarily. It might be nosema c. A relatively new infestation here, my concern is that we're not giving it enough credit, but masking it over with: it must be varroa. I'd hate to see widespread fumagillin use that could start causing resistance issues, but I think it would be good to know which enemy we're dealing with.

Maybe the bees will end up sorting it out on their own and the issue won't be that big of a deal. That would be good. But I'm going to start getting very friendly with the microscope, comparing bees from deadouts to those from surviving hives, looking for differences in nosema levels. If it turns out there is a relationship there, I'm going to think twice about sharing frames between hives.

It also sounds like you are not importing any bees into your apiaries, while others with higher counts and issues may be. I wonder if, like you said, building your own colonies from your own strong stock, is key. Others may be bringing infected bees into their apiaries (packages, queens), and whammo. Nosema c. (Just guessing here of course)


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Maybe this is why my bees have low nosema counts, although I vaporize rather than drench or dribble:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0034528815300333

Abstract_Nosema ceranae_ is a honey bee pathogen parasitizing the ventricular epithelium and potentially causing colony death. The effect of 0.25 M oxalic acid solution administered to the bees in the form of sugar syrup was determined in laboratory and field trials. The spore numbers in an 8-day laboratory experiment were significantly lower when AO was administered (treated: 11.86 ± 0.94 s.e. × 10^6; untreated: 30.64 ± 0.31 s.e. x 10^6). When administered in autumn to free flying colonies twice, 3 weeks apart, the infection prevalence decreased in young (relative reduction of 53.8% ± 6.5 s.e.) and old bees (relative reduction of 44.4% ± 6.0 s.e.). Meanwhile increased prevalence in all the controls was detected (young and old bees: relative increase of 45.7% ± 22.8 s.e. and 10.2% ± 5.9 s.e., respectively). While all the treated colonies overwintered correctly, the untreated ones did not (3 out of 5 were dead).
In the absence of commercial products approved in several countries to control nosemosis, oxalic acid syrup appears promising in the development of alternative management strategies.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

NewbeeInNH said:


> A relatively new infestation here


From what I've read, when reports from Europe started and folks here began looking more closely it was discovered that n cerane was in stored samples going back years. It is not overtly different under a microscope and had been presumed to be n apis throughout that time. All indications are...it isn't new here.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

The data I've seen starts it in the mid-90s, which is actually fairly recent to me.  Are you saying you think it existed in the US prior to that?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

A parasite that's been with us for twenty years is pretty well established. I don't think of it as very recent...but that's just me.
During those twenty years it has been examined pretty closely. 
Are there times, such as Michael Palmer described, where it is the primary cause of winter collapse? Sure. Are there times when it is a significant contributor to winter collapse? Sure.
Yet by any measure that I have, it hasn't shown itself to be in a league with varroa for destructive power.
But...this is just my opinion.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I bought a microscope a few years back when nosema ceranae was the "disease du jour". Results consistently showed pretty low levels. I only bothered (fumagillan) treating one year when the mentality of most commercials was you were irresponsible if you didn't. I haven't even bothered sampling in recent years. Samples pulled this past fall by a SD state inspection showed results as negative. Like Dan says, worry first and foremost about varroa and nutrition and most other problems will go away.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

beeman - You make perfect sense. But, while nosema c. was identified here in the mid 90s, it takes time to spread. And those parasitical conditions that come from across the globe can be pretty devastating until immunities are built up. (Thinking about our American Chestnuts that were obliterated pretty much in one generation here.) Also, nosema c. seems really difficult to kill, may not respond as well to fumagillin, appears to live on surfaces for a long time, or in shared water sources, and does not die in freeze. From what I gather, baking your equipment at 120F for 24 hrs. seems to kill it, and I would be all for that if worse came to worse. The other factor is that you're in a warmer climate where your bees don't get as old as mine do, and don't have to stick around as long in the hive cluster, with the fungus multiplying and causes issues in the gut. 

I want to keep my eye on this one. Of course, that could mean nothing. It's not like I'm a scientist. Just a professional worry wart.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

NewbeeInNH said:


> The other factor is that you're in a warmer climate where your bees don't get as old as mine do, and don't have to stick around as long in the hive cluster, with the fungus multiplying and causes issues in the gut.


You may want to review Michael Palmer's post....his bees are in the neighborhood.
I understand the whole worry wart thing....I tell people that I got the 'fret gene'....pretty much the same thing as a worry wart gene....I'm thinkin'.
All the same...I have plenty else to fret about.....I don't think n ceranae is going to keep me up at night.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

It's a good thing you don't plan on worrying about nosema c. because I have that base pretty well covered. We should make a list of just who is going to worry about what, so we can cover all the bases and not have a lot of overlap.  Efficiency, after all.

Yeah, Michael Palmer's apiary, I'm thinking, is so completely self-sustainable that he's not bringing any new bees in that could carry diseases. And just a few minutes ago I was thinking that may be the ultimate scenario. Once your apiary becomes so self-sustainable that you pretty much never import bees, then the only carriers might be either robber bees or drones infecting queens. (Unless they can pick something up from pollinating the same flowers as other yards.) In my opinion, self-sustainability in the apiary is a worthy goal, and altho I have 2 Russian queens on order for July, I think after this I'm just going to go with getting my queens from my own swarm cells and forget about 100% Russian genetics. Then maybe my bees will self-select along resistance lines, and the apiary will be stronger.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Self sustaining does not eliminste disease introduction at all


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Ian said:


> Self sustaining does not eliminste disease introduction at all


Total isolation without any inputs might...otherwise.....you're out of luck. Not many places in north America can claim total isolation.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Agree, there are lots of bees flying. Just consider how drones move from hive to hive. I've seen some cordovan drones in my hives and I run all dark bees. Not to mention that those queens you raise are going to mate with strange drones for a distant congregation area. And then there are the robber bees from your hives which will raid collapsing hives. Much better strategy is to control varroa, keep strong hives and make sure nutrition is good.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Well, I did say except for drones, robbers, and probably pollinator meetups.

I still think the more sustainable, the better. And the more you raise your own queen supply, the better. I can't imagine that couldn't help.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Yes but your also assuming genetics coming in are inferiour. I understand the line of thought, breeding for local environmental concerns, but the largest point I'd say comes from self sustaining is controlling costs. Bees are not like a cattle herd where all those factors around outside the fence are irrelevant


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

I have posted no trespassing signs. My bees are safe.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

NewbeeInNH said:


> I have posted no trespassing signs. My bees are safe.


That only works if all of your neighbors do the same.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Ian said:


> Self sustaining does not eliminste disease introduction at all


Not at all.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

beemandan said:


> That only works if all of your neighbors do the same.


Okay then. I'll build a wall and make them pay for it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Michael Palmer said:


> Not at all.


I'm converting my apiary back towards a more self sustaining model, I feel our industry is getting too commercial (spend spend ) and I'm starting to see quality problems associated with the imports. For me, re introducing self sustainability brings back my control


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I agree


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> All this makes me wonder what's going on. The survey samples were all taken from apiaries of 10+ colonies...half migratory apiaries and half non-migratory. While I don't know why there is such a difference in both my New York and Vermont apiaries, when compared to other apiaries in the areas, I can guess


Do you regularly renew hives by cleaning and applying fresh paint? Remove old brood combs and replace with fresh foundation? Attempt to keep your colonies healthy and clean? Could any of these be factors in your low levels of nosema?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>Do you regularly renew hives by cleaning and applying fresh paint? 

No

>>Remove old brood combs and replace with fresh foundation? 

Regularly? No. I have some combs that are decades old. I replace combs when they are too droney, damaged, thick greasy wax, entombed pollen. Nice worker comb...black or not...I use.

>>Attempt to keep your colonies healthy and clean?

Me attempt? The bees do nicely on their own. I treat for varroa and feed them if they need it. No antibiotics, fumagillin, or the latest designer treatment to correct some perceived issue, or add some "probiotic" or feed "stimulant" to make ME feel better. 

>>Could any of these be factors in your low levels of nosema? 

Beats me. Since I'm not doing what you ask, maybe not.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Hey, Mike, what do you use to treat varroa? Maybe I missed you already answer that?

Also, dunno how helpful this would be for everyone?

https://youtu.be/82jyphxqoiY?t=361


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