# Oxalic acid application Sprayer vs Vaporizer



## RAK (May 2, 2010)

You must mean dribble oxalic acid. I certainly would not spray oxalic. A drench gun might work, but no spraying.


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

We bought a bunch of stuff from a beekeeper going out of business and they used a pump up sprayer. I watched some youtube videos with the drizzle method.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Crabo,
I have watched people on youtube use a pump up sprayer however the nozzle was set on stream and not spray, I agree with RAK in that I would not use the spray setting. 

Oxalic acid in drench is only effective if the bees are in cluster and bloodless and one must limit the use of the drench method to 1 application every 6 months because it does cause damage to the bees. 

Vapor on the other hand can be applied anytime that brood is present but must be applied in 3 applications, one application a week for 3 consecutive weeks to cover a complete 21 day brood cycle and is applied through the entrance. OA vapor does not harm the bees or the brood. 

I have heard it said that Oxalic vapor can be used with the supers on the hives however I prefer to apply the vapor only when the supers are removed.


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## tdf (Nov 27, 2013)

use a dosing gun like for cattle, set to 5ml and away you go


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Randy Oliver has a page that details the how and why of using the oxalic acid "dribble" application method:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

WWW said:


> Vapor on the other hand can be applied anytime that brood is present but must be applied in 3 applications, one application a week for 3 consecutive weeks to cover a complete 21 day brood cycle and is applied through the entrance.


Depends on time of year, middle of winter with 0 brood is best time to treat and during this time reapplication is practically unnecessary most of the mites are crawling. The only problem during winter is the cluster is very compact and its difficult for the vapor to fully penetrate to the center of the cluster. Mulitple applications are required during warm months when upto 80% of mites are in brood. 

I would vaporize


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Crabo said:


> It looks like the vaporizer is much more effective and you don't have to open the tops of the hives.


Having done both dribble is the way to go for efficiency for TWO people. It is faster...no batteries...no wires. One opens the brood nest and moves on. The other dribbles, closes and moves. However, if you wire the vaporizers together in a parallel and you're a one man show, a pallet of 4 can take about 7 minutes from start to stop. No back strain on opening the hive, insert, vaporize & go...


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

WWW said:


> I have heard it said that Oxalic vapor can be used with the supers on the hives however I prefer to apply the vapor only when the supers are removed.


You can vaporize with the supers on HOWEVER you would want to wait at least 10 days before pulling them for extraction............. OA is natural to the beehive but not in the amounts after vaporization. A 10 day period allows the OA to dissipate.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> However, if you wire the vaporizers together in a [HIGHLIGHT]series [/HIGHLIGHT]

If you wire multiple devices in "_series_", the battery voltage is split between those devices. By wiring in "_parallel_", the full battery voltage is available to each vaporizer.


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

We are going to try to do it next week depending on the weather.

We are trying to make the move from 100+ hives to 300+ this summer using splits and nucs. The goal is to have 400 doubles every year. We winter in North Texas and move them to North Dakota for the growing season.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Crabo said:


> We are going to try to do it next week


Which method?


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

I bought 2 of the vaporizers that they advertise the bee journal. They are around 3 grand each and need a generator and an air compressor. I used them in one yard before I quit. Saw very little mite kill. The guy said that we would have to treat 2 more times to get all of the mites. For me that seemed crazy because if I could do 1000 hive per day it would take over a week then turn around and do it again and again.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

babybee said:


> I bought 2 of the vaporizers that they advertise the bee journal. They are around 3 grand each and need a generator and an air compressor. I used them in one yard before I quit. Saw very little mite kill. The guy said that we would have to treat 2 more times to get all of the mites. For me that seemed crazy because if I could do 1000 hive per day it would take over a week then turn around and do it again and again.


My take as well, at least in regard to the time required. If you can make it until they are broodless a trickle takes less than a minute per hive, no batteries, generators or toxic fumes. I am a bit surprised you werent pleased with its effectiveness though, are you sealing the hive up for a 5 minutes or so after treatment? It all takes time then when you do the math, and with a lot of hives it amounts to LOTS of time.


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Randy Oliver has a page that details the how and why of using the oxalic acid "dribble" application method:
> 
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/




That is the procedure we've followed for the last 2 seasons. Last week I treated about 100 colonies located in 4 yards in about 3 hours. One person opens the hive the other 1 sprays. Each hive takes about 30 seconds from start to finish. The pump up 1 gal garden sprayer is the way to go.

Mike


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

I admit that I didn't seal up the hives, Jim, but based on their video on their website neither did they. That was the main reason I bought the units. I was convinced that it would be as easy as the dribble method or easier and get every inch of the beehive thus every bee not flying.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

I saw a demo of that thing last year, looked easy, put it all in the back of a pickup and go. $3000, but oa is cheap.Wondered how they worked on mites.You say not so good?


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

mmiller said:


> Randy Oliver has a page that details the how and why of using the oxalic acid "dribble" application method:
> 
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/
> 
> ...


snl, This is the information we were looking for and the method we are going to use. We already have the sprayer and the crystals and don't want to spend money on anything we don't have to right now.


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## borada bee doc (Feb 6, 2010)

Can anyone give more info on the VM Vaporizer. Watching the video clip at (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M65m5pTHEFI&feature=youtu.be), the first hive is fumed for 23 seconds, the second pallet hive's are fumed for 6 and 7 seconds. It also appears that the operator is exposed to quite a bit of OA smoke. This seems inconsistent. Can anyone who has used this product give more insight on their experience? Also, what is the purpose of the compressed air? A video clip of a European product shows plenty of airflow from a heating unit which has no forced air (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NoYE2FA6_U). This second unit is placed in the hive entrance for @30 seconds but looks like it would cost less than $100. I imagine one could use 6 or 8 of these and move through a beeyard quickly without all the fume exposure of the first unit.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I got one of the passive units, a Heilyser JB200, a week or so ago. It costs a bit over a hundred dollars. I tested it on a couple of dozen hives last week. For the most part these were colonies that had extended brood breaks last season. In addition they were given two treatments of Apiguard in September. About half have screened bottoms.
I counted dropped mites on the SBB hives yesterday (6 days after treating) and the numbers ranged from 40 to over 500. Seven of the 12 hives counted had drops exceeding 200.

Basically you add 2g of oa, insert the device into the hive entrance, I blocked the entrance with a towel, apply power for about 2 minutes (that’s how long it took my setup to fully vaporize 2g), disconnect from power and leave in place for an extra minute, remove the unit, dip the head in cold water, wipe the heating block dry…then repeat. I left the towel in place for an additional 10 minutes. If I had to guess, I’d say I could do about 4 – 5 minutes per hive per unit (you could parallel up a number of units to increase your efficiency).

Even with one of these…you don’t want to get downwind. I got a small whiff…not even a visible cloud and I instantly knew it. A filtered mask would surely improve the safety.

For a couple of hundred hives…it is acceptable. I don’t think it would be practical for many more than that.

I have no idea about the $3000 unit.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I quit blocking the entrance a couple of years ago. I see a cloud of vapor come out the top entrance and I get good results. Makes OA vapor go much faster. I have 4 but only use 2 at a time - that's the most efficient for me. I also dip in water and let the bowl dry. I run one and tend to the other, then run it, etc. Makes the yard quick and easy.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I too have been interested in finding an efficient vaporizer. Look at this one:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARK2tyXFfrU
BBDoc: do you know who makes the one in the video you posted?
Also interested in more info on the 3000 unit.

Mike


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

We have used both methods. Where we are bees are in tight clusters and have no brood from about mid October on so that is when we apply. We found that the drip was faster but were never realy satified with the results. We winter outside so wraping of hives had to be delayed and that was a problem. We went to the vaprizer a few years ago and are more than pleased with the results. The only nock against it is it is slower so we run multiple units. We winter in double deeps and the amount of vapour fills ever bit of the hive. A tight cluster is not an issue as soon as the smoke from the vaporizer hits them you will here a loud buzzing as they start to fan. This will allow the vapour through the cluster. Our hives are wrapped for the winter so they are sealed up and the vapour remains in the hive. This vapour is actually small crystals that coat everything in the hive and seems last for some time. With this method we only use the late fall treatment and it is the only mite treatment we use for an entire year. Another thing, this treatment costs pennies per hive. We use the vapourizers marketed by Beemaid Honey out of Winnipeg, Manitoba. When we first used the vapourizer we were concerned about the fumes and having to deal with them outside the hive but found this to be a non-issue. A little common sense, take note of the wind and use a top rated dust mask when needed and there is no problem att all.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

As anyone who has played around with these things finds out, speed is the issue. The need to get a lot of hives done in reasonable time frame.Dribbling is fastest but has the disadvantage of only one treatment in a broodless time frame. Multiple treatments with dribbling can be done when there is brood but effectiveness falls way off.

Thats why there is interest in the $3000 unit. But it seems cludgy having to move a generator AND a compressor around.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I can do a 20 - 25 hive yard in about half an hour with little physical exertion. I just use battery pack and the units. Quick and easy. I do use long leads from the pack [25'] so I only have to move it a couple of times in a yard.


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## borada bee doc (Feb 6, 2010)

Mike, Here is a link to the non-forced air vaporizer (http://www.eng-service.com/api caratt sublim apfPLUS.htm). Treats hive in 25 seconds. Looks like it is not available in 120V. I think this unit makes of sense as it is not blowing alot of extra hot air into the hive (and outside the hive....and all over the used). Anyone have an explanation for the forced air in some products?


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

12 volt to 220. Hmmm

I would guess the idea of forced air is to ensure adequate coverage of all the nooks and crannys. But the passive(non-fanned)units throw a huge volume of gas up so it does look like overkill.The heat gun units seem like that would be enough fanned air to do the job. I think being able to go from hive to hive without having to reload each time is the time saver.


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## borada bee doc (Feb 6, 2010)

What would be the best temp control setup to maintain 300-315F? Any Grainger parts that would work in a farm-shop built unit?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I vaporize for now with 21 hives. not sure I would continue to do so unless I get more units. The process with eh vaporizer would be just a bit time consuming on a commercial basis unless you get enough units that keep a person moving. I think with the right combination and method you could make it less time than dribble and definitely less disruptive to the hive. I don't know that anything is going to be fast. I have a crew that excells in slow and can live with it for now.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Like filling hundreds of honey bears, there is just a point where you are sick of it and want it done.

But thats always been a good thing about beekeeping. When you are absolutely sick of doing the same job day after day, it changes!


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## VanIslander (Aug 19, 2013)

I've been looking at this oxidizer on Ebay for backyard use -- just two hives. Has anyone here seen or used one like this?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

VanIslander said:


> I've been looking at this oxidizer on Ebay for backyard use -- just two hives. Has anyone here seen or used one like this?
> 
> View attachment 8662


You're going to have a tough time getting them to comply with the instructions.

"During processing, the bees must comply with safety requirementsin terms of eye protection and breathing of vapors of oxalic acid."


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

I bought the same unit that babybee described. I had the same results as babybee described. Is this a pattern or are we just not doing it right?
I fogged them until vapor came out the lid. We had sticky boards under them and got basically no might drop after waiting 3 days.
I think the dribble method is the way to go.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

VanIslander said:


> I've been looking at this oxidizer on Ebay for backyard use -- just two hives. Has anyone here seen or used one like this?


I tried it to "Check out the competition." Maybe it was just the one I bought, but it only worked on two hives ....... then quit.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Nick : Doesn't seem possible 'you weren't doing it right".

Maybe vaporizing is just over hyped?. I was playing around with some home made units a few years back and remember it wasn't too successful. I thought I was just overheating the acid with propane and gave it up.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

borada bee doc said:


> Mike, Here is a link to the non-forced air vaporizer (http://www.eng-service.com/api caratt sublim apfPLUS.htm). Treats hive in 25 seconds. Looks like it is not available in 120V. I think this unit makes of sense as it is not blowing alot of extra hot air into the hive (and outside the hive....and all over the used). Anyone have an explanation for the forced air in some products?


That is the same make of oxalic vaporizer i use, 25 second treatment per hive continuous (no cooling down between hives)
and faster than the trickling method with less disturbance to the bees, and less harmful, plus can be used at any time of year,multiple times if needed when brood present.

The vapor comes out under pressure into the hive, as the oxalic chamber is sealed, so as it heats up the oxalic first turns to liquid, bit like the steam outlet on a pressure cooker.

We use a small lightweight generator and long extension lead, the generator just sits in the back of the truck at most apiaries, as the lead is long enough to reach the hives, the unit is nice and light to use, and stays at the correct temperature for sublimation of the oxalic via a thermostat, unlike other methods where there is no real heat control for correct sublimation, such as copper pipes.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Thanks for that info Pete. I do see now where it can run off a 220 generator. Maybe one could use a step up voltage convertor in order to use a 120volt generator?


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## Hossman (Mar 22, 2011)

Crabo we sell and use the JB200. You can check it out on our website. Bedillionhoneyfarm.com or look in the for sale forum on beesource.


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## borada bee doc (Feb 6, 2010)

Interesting that vaporizers sending a concentrated plume of OA beneath the brood nest are getting good reports but apparent failures are reported for gonzo forced air units. Possibly the more concentrated vapor plume in the brood nest is necessary. Do the makers of forced air units have any well controlled studies on their product to show their effectiveness? As for home built units, an inexpensive thermostat could be obtained from an old iron or electric skillet. One is fast acting (I think the skillet, and the other slow acting).


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

I'm sure glad I asked about dribbling , there has been a lot of good info come out of this thread . I'll probably go with a vaporizer , since it appears to do a better job at this time of year - plus I have all the materials on hand to fabricate one (I run a small part-time machine shop as supplementary income) . Y'all are a great bunch , and I'm very happy to be involved with such a caring group .


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

Crabo said:


> We are going to use oxalic acid for first time. We have a sprayer and were given this formula of 1lb/5 pints water mixed in hot water, mixed with 5 QTS syrup. I also read 35 grams t one liter of 50/50 sugar syrup and water.
> 
> I did a search and didn't find any information on using a sprayer.



http://link.springer.com/article/10.1051/apido/2010029?no-access=true


On Spraying of Oxalic Acid Dihydrat:

“We conclude that 0.5% oxalic acid in a water solution at a dose of 25 ml per 
comb applied as a single spray in honeybee colonies with little or no brood achieves effective control of the Varroa mite. 

The bees were sprayed until wet at dosage 25 ml per comb. 
The bees outside the combs were sprayed additionally with 25 ml OA solution. 

Thus for an 8-frame colony 8 × 25 + 25 = 225 ml solution of OA was applied

If the number of mites is high the colonies should be treated in early autumn, 
either once (13.09.05) 
or twice (13.09.05 and 19.09.05) in autumn
using the spraying with 0.5% OA 
... Experiment 2 showed that spraying colonies with 0.5% OA in aqueous solution, in September when they had little sealed brood, was highly effective in killing mites (Fig. 2). 

The average efficacy in colonies sprayed once was 92.94 ± 0.01% 
and in those sprayed twice, 91.84 ± 0.02%; “

http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2010/06/m09055.pdf

Spraying of 2% Oxalic Acid Dihydrate on bees against the Varroa is known for more the 36 years!


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Spraying of 2% Oxalic Acid Dihydrate on bees against the Varroa is known for more the 36 years![/QUOTE]

Yes , much information on oxalic and other methods has been out there for a long time. Mostly from Europe (thank you!). Before the internet it was difficult to gather good info, and came from word of mouth and the bee mags.The trickling method works fine on large numbers of hives, but vaporizing oxalic on a large scale effectively isn't so clear. 
I am interested in the vaporizer from Lega Italy, but didn't get any response to my email to them.


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## mnbeekeeper (Jun 30, 2010)

I would like to talk more about dribbling OA. I understand it shortens the bees lifespan. and is less effective when brood Is present. my questions are, is any one dribbling 2 times in the fall. say once in the end of sept. and again in nov or dec. my real question is, I move the bees down to texas and I know they raise some brood in dec. so even if I shorten up their lives in sept. by the time I re apply in dec would there be enough new bees present to keep the colony going. or would I really be hurting my population. I used mite away quick strips after honey was pulled in august. still seeing mites on some hives. everything is getting dribble now. but im worried there is still brood and mites hatching so I want to dribble them again in a month or two. is that a bad idea??

this spring I was dribbling the hives after I split them and again before the summer honey flow. I didn't see any populations go down hill. but I know the hives are growing at a much faster rate.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

The way I understand it is that you don't want to dribble it on the same adult bees twice due to carapace damage. If you think they are going to replace the bees you just treated with new brood/bees before the second treatment - you are probably ok.

“You can treat your colonies with a liquid mixture of OA and sugar but be careful. The liquid acid shortens the life of the bees. There is no problem during summer because the bee’s life not longer than approximately 6 weeks. The problem starts with winter bees–do not treat your winter bees more than one time with liquid OA. When using liquid OA bees get wet and have to clean each other. The result is, the acid ends up in their stomach and during winter without a cleaning flight it shortens the life of the bees. Two treatments on winter bees might kill the colony. Liquid OA is a slow killer and bees will probably die after a few weeks or month instead reaching the next season.”

From RO's page on OA http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/


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