# Apis cerana japonica



## Beeslave

Where is he keeping these(state/country)?


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## arthur

Japan.


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## josethayil

I have kept bees in Saudi Arabia(Mellifera) 10 hives and in India(Cerana) 200 hives and i still keep bees in new Zealand(Mellifera) 3 hives. 

i can say that cerana does have a lot of different characteristics and some subspecies do build up as big as the mellifera and produce better than mellifera. The temperment do vary between subspecies and within each subspecies just like in mellifera.


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## Marc

Jose, what race do you keep in New Zealand? Italian? Carniolan? German Dark Bees Apis mel. mel.? I read before that New Zealand still has larger areas where the old dark bee apis mel mel is dominant. Is that the case?


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## arthur

He is sending me updates on his efforts. I will ask him to start a blog with pics. If not interested, I will see if I can post his emails here (w/ his permission).

That is, if there is interest.


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## bigevilgrape

arthur said:


> He is sending me updates on his efforts. I will ask him to start a blog with pics. If not interested, I will see if I can post his emails here (w/ his permission).
> 
> That is, if there is interest.


I would definitely be interested.


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## josethayil

Hi, I keep carniolans now. used to keep a mix between the Dark bees and italians before. Not much of bark bees left in the north island now.

but still a good population of british dark bees left in the south island. I think the varroa which is spreading through the south island now will mostly wipe out all the feral colonies of native british black bees in a few years time. I think that will be the loss of some well preserved genetics of pure dark bees.


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## peterloringborst

Apis cerana is not really an alternative to honey bees. They _are_ honey bees.


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## arthur

peterloringborst said:


> Apis cerana is not really an alternative to honey bees. They _are_ honey bees.


This is not true, not exactly.

For example in Japan, my understanding is that no bee operations keep Apis cerana. Not productive enough.

Also Apis cerana have different behaviors, and require different equipment (for example, regular honeybee foundations do not work for them).


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## peterloringborst

Apis cerana are honey bees. And they are kept in hives throughout Asia. They also occur in the wild, as does Apis dorsata, Apis florea, etc. which are also honey bees. 

All the Apis species are true honey bees, whether they live in boxes, have many combs or just a single comb hanging on a tree or off a rock. Honey bees can not be an alternative to honey bees.

In China both Asian honey bees and European bees are kept in hives. While the European bee is generally more productive, the Asian honey bees are resistant to Asian mites, and other predators. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vll_2xH_SQY&feature=player_embedded


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## arthur

Irrespective of whether this is the right subforum or not....

My father's quest to find an apis cerana japonica hive in the wild continues. He and a friend went to a foraging area, caught and anesthisized a bee of this species, then tied thread to it, with a bit of tissue paper tied to the thread. When the bee woke up, it flew away with string and tissue paper, above a tree and out of sight. 

No luck so far finding a hive.


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## arthur

Article on traditional methods of keeping Apis cerana on a small Japanese island situated between Japan proper and Korea--Tsushima. If you get to the meat of the article, it has pictures and description of how they keep bees in hollowed logs.

http://www.tokyofoundation.org/en/series/japanese-traditional-foods/vol.-22-japanese-honeybee

I mention this because my father will be going to Tsushima in a week, to meet beekeepers on this island. No European honeybees are kept on this island. I'm hoping I get a honey sample eventually.


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## ehallspqr

Arthur, this is really interesting I hope you keep this thread updated. I have seen several documentaries about apis cerana japonica. There are even several Youtube videos about them and especially there interactions with giant hornets. Yes you could say they are very similar to our bees but they also have a unique look and behavior about them. Most people here are focused on regular old European honey bees which I understand that. Native bees and alternative pollinators may really gain peoples attention in the future should our bees continue to die off.


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## arthur

Thanks, ehallspqr. I'm ok writing to empty chairs, but nice to know someone is interested.

Quick update. My dad could not go to Tsushima because of bad weather. The trip is postponed.

He recently caught an Asian Giant Hornet in a butterfly net. But it escaped through a hole in the net, before it could be collected. When he described its size, I said "sounds like a bird." And he replied by saying in Japan the name for it is actually Giant Sparrow Bee (in Japanese of course). If you read about the sting these things pack, as well as how they attack honeybees, and how japonica fights them off--very interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_giant_hornet

A coworker of my father has built a box that is used to geotrack bees. I forget what they call the box. But it has three chambers. It is essentially a rectangle composed of three boxes. The foraging bee is placed in the first box, and then through a trap door is allowed into the second box, where there is a nice supply of honey/sugar/syrup. The bee is kept in the 2nd box until it is sated, and then a trapdoor is released allowing the bee into the third box. The bee is released from the third box, and the direction of its flight is observed. Observers can watch standing as normal, or better yet, lay down on the ground and stare up. Often the bees will do a small orientation flight before heading for the hive. You do this for many foragers, and you after collecting several points from several vantages, they should all hone in one direction/point. Anyway, this has been started, but no hive located yet.

One more thing, my dad has been looking in a Japanese beek catalog. The accessories are very different. I forget all the details. But veils and clothing and such are different.

With japonica, frames are not typically used. I was describing Michael Bush's suggestion to me in another thread to use a guitar wire "guillotine" to free up my hybrid TBH, and he said Japanese use the same method with their japonica hives in boxes. A cross-x is formed inside the honey super. The description didn't make sense to me, so I can't describe it further.

And yes, I am kinda ticked that my father doesn't have a camera!


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## dcross

Bee lining box! Jim Fischer has written quite a bit about them, and his dad makes/made them.

If somebody starts a collection to get your dad a camera, I'll chip in!

Also, if there is an online version of a japanese supply catalog...


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## ehallspqr

"I'm ok writing to empty chairs, but nice to know someone is interested"

Yes these types of posting about alternative pollinators are very interesting to me and others. I lived in Japan and checked out their beekeeping scene. It is different in some respects but mostly they used the European bees/equipment also and are having the same issues with disease and parasites. Many countries have had serious problems with their euro honeybees dying off so there is a renewed interest in their native bees. In many parts of the world their turning to the Stingless bee species. Checkout the Meliponicultura scene in South America or the Sugarbag bees of Australia. You can also type in stingless bees on youtube and see many videos.


"He recently caught an Asian Giant Hornet in a butterfly net. But it escaped through a hole in the net, before it could be collected. When he described its size, I said "sounds like a bird." And he replied by saying in Japan the name for it is actually Giant Sparrow Bee (in Japanese of course). If you read about the sting these things pack, as well as how they attack honeybees, and how japonica fights them off--very interesting"

He's braver than me. Those giant hornets are nasty. I saw them when I was in Japan and they are horrible scary creatures, this coming from a guy who fears no bug. I'd say the queen is a good 2.5 inches, maybe more. They'll kill a whole hive of euro honeybees in a few hours. That's one of the reasons for renewed interest in the native honeybee as they can fight off an attack by smothering the hornets and cooking them.


"The bee is released from the third box, and the direction of its flight is observed. Observers can watch standing as normal, or better yet, lay down on the ground and stare up. Often the bees will do a small orientation flight before heading for the hive. You do this for many foragers, and you after collecting several points from several vantages, they should all hone in one direction/point"

I have used a similar method to find wild hives. Bees always fly in a straight path when returning home. By placing a bowl of honey out I can watch which direction the foragers at the honey dish fly when returning home. Then I move closer and closer until I home in on the hive location. Then it's just a matter of looking for the in and out hive traffic. Also viewing the bees flight path at the time of day when the sun is low in the sky will make a difference. By standing at a certain angle in relation to the bees flight, the sun will highlight their wings/body and you can see their flight path for a much greater distance.


"And yes, I am kinda ticked that my father doesn't have a camera!"

Buy him a cheap digital camera with batteries and extra memory sticks and send that to him. He should be capturing this on film.


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## arthur

My mother is bringing him a camera, or supposed to anyway. He says he will buy one if she doesn't.

I asked about the European bees over there. He says they can only be kept with intensive management (i.e. chemicals). He's seen some of them, and remarked that they were very calm bees (worked without gloves). Of course, this is also the man that has led me to be criticized on beesource, due to his keeping bees that are a tad on the aggressive side (stateside).

I asked him why they don't import some hygienic bees from the states. It turns out all bee importation into Japan is banned. Probably a very good thing for Japan. US would be better off with the same policy, IMO.

He says he can purchase a package of apis cerana j. for $200. But that they are very prone to abscond. This is coming from a man who has never bought a package in his life, and hadn't bought a queen in years. He and a dollar are not easily separated. So this will be a great dilemma for him, lol.

Ehall, I will mention the honey bowl thing to him.


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## arthur

Here are some pictures of hives that are purpose-built for cerana japonica.

These pictures were taken by a friend of my father's. And I did secure his permission to post the pictures here.

This hive is in Tsushima.










This hive and the following one are both from Kubokawa, Shimanto, Kochi Prefecture. Notice the holes that appear to be drilled in the front.










You will noticed the potted plants next to the hives. They are orchids whose scent the bees are attracted to. Swarms are often found on these plants. So the orchids are placed next to these hives to attract swarms.










My father tells me a couple of things about how these bees are different than European bees. For one, when bees are outside of the hive, fanning, they face outward, instead of toward the hive. Also, when they abscond, they eat their larvae. So he says.

No update yet on any capture or purchase efforts.


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## ehallspqr

Great pictures. These look like the old style Box Gum hives. The top picture looks like a two chamber hive with a log gum sitting on top? I wonder if these type hives are the norm or mainly kept by the old school traditional beekeepers? There are no frames or top bars in those are there? It would be interesting to see the inside of one of these.


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## arthur

there are no frames in these hives. And I don't believe there are top bars either. I think honey is harvested by cutting out a portion of the comb.

My father goes to Tsushima this week, and he says he is taking his camera. Hope hopes to return with a package of Cerana.


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## arthur

Quick update: my father went to Tsushima and talked to a beekeeper. Said it was a difficult winter and maybe 30-40% colonies were lost. It was only this beek that was even willing to sell a hive/colony, but my dad decided not to buy it. Cost is about $1000 and there are issues having it shipped.

But he did buy a traditional log hive.

I heard today that he somehow now has a cerana swarm in his log hive. Sounds like the swarm was caught and placed, but I'm not sure. The local news did a piece on his hive.

Pictures of Tsushima and this new hive to come.


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## ehallspqr

Wow a thousand bucks for a hive? That sounds high, but typically everything costs allot more over there. It sounds like he got lucky with getting a swarm.

There are many videos on Youtube about Japanese beekeeping. It looks like the hives they use are kind of like a cross between a Warre hive and a boxgum. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WocSM4Z4ltU&playnext_from=TL&videos=EcuMvR6pP2g

You think we have problems check out these Giant hornets attacking both European & native bees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtFV...tq-lg8nZByFWNN5GEczDxcSb1uZ9frkZDfSgh_AdtI_k8


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## arthur

So, it was a swarm collection, according to the Yomiuri Shimbun, the newspaper with the largest circulation in the world.










That looks like a rather large swarm to me.

Here's the online article:
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/e-japan/fukuoka/news/20100603-OYT8T01201.htm

Translation of the article:
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translat...03-OYT8T01201.htm&lp=ja_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

The details have not been reported to me yet.


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## arthur

The swarm was large, but not as large as it appears in that picture. Angle trickery.

I'm forgetting the story on how they found out about the swarm. I think someone called the news and the news called the university, and the news also called an exterminator. My father told them to cancel the call to the exterminator.

So that swarm is now in the hive purchased in Tsushima. It has apparently taken and is active. This kind of beekeeping is like keeping a skep. You don't open this thing up to inspect it. "Bee-having." Which is alright, as I have learned on my time on beesource from many folks here that my father was never a beekeeper. He is/was just a bee-haver. 

Here are some pictures of the current set-up. Enjoy.

http://s1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/bee_art/cerana_hive_roof/


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## ehallspqr

That is like a wooden skep or log gum. Basic beekeeping. Is the hive kept on a rooftop? No giant hornets this time of year.


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## arthur

Yes, it's on a roof. He has made a couple of top-bar hives, built specially for cerana, but he needs more swarms to get them started. I'm not sure why he started with the log-hive. Maybe just to be traditional for the heck of it.

Despite being 100% feral, they are apparently quite gentle.


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## mattoleriver

I have nothing to add to the discussion. I just wanted to tell you how much I am enjoying this topic. Keep 'em coming.
Thanks

George


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## Skinner Apiaries

Hey, What does the sign in pic 18 say? I can get past the hirigana, but there's too much kanji for me! lol.


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## arthur

Some pictures of cerana japonica hives in Tsushima, taken by my father.

http://s1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/bee_art/Tsushima Hives/


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## ehallspqr

Cool pics. It almost looks like a Zen garden setting. I like how they blend the hives amongst the landscaping. They use every inch of space in Japan because land is so scarce and expensinve. The tops on the log gums are different. Each looks like either something they scrounged up to throw on top or its purposeful/artful in a way I don't understand. The old Japanese guy looks like a bee-keeper though.


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## arthur

I wonder if the slit openings have something to do with preventing attacks from wasps.


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## ehallspqr

Most likely. Every Japanese hive I see in videos or photos has a screen or narrow opening to prevent Giant Hornets from gaining entry. They are a huge problem overthere. How is your dad's hive doing?


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## arthur

Here are some pictures of the cerana hive being inspected. It cannot be inspected from the top--that is where the comb attaches of course.

http://s1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/bee_art/cerana_hive_roof_2/


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## Aspera

Is japonica in any way different from the rest of A. cerana? Does A. cerana have varieties the way some people think A. mellifera does?


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## ehallspqr

As I understand Cerana is all thoughout Asia and has variances just like Mellifera. The Japanese version is one such variance. 

Man that log gum looks like something from the 1800's. Very cool though!


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## arthur

Update: DISASTER!

Apparently, being on a roof, the hive overheated. Bees could not keep it cool, honey came pouring down, bees came pouring out. Bees are on outside of log hive (as of yesterday). Shade being considered as well as a move off the roof.

It already had afternoon shade. So perhaps the roof is not the answer.

Another lesson learned the hard way.


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## arthur

I am told that the bees have recovered and are doing ok.


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## arthur

This hive is still up and going. I will soon have an update, if anyone is interested.


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## josethayil

Yes. Please do update. Let us know how they are ddoing and some pictures if you can get them

Thanks


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## Joseph Clemens

Very interested. I very much enjoy and appreciate this thread.


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## arthur

Here is the latest pic of the hive:

http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/bee_art/Update_2011/beesonroof001.jpg

The same hive is on the far right in this picture. It is the only hive that actually has bees in it:

http://s1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/bee_art/Update_2011/?action=view&current=beesonroof004.jpg

Not much to report other than that the bees are flying and active. And not glowing.


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## arthur

further updates on a.c. japonica will be on me and my father's bee blog. I think my father is hoping for some conversation and feedback, so comments/questions welcome.


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## JRing

Enjoyed reading your post, and will look at yall's blog. 
I do have a question. Has any of the A. cerana japonica or other asian honeybees been exported/imported to the states? 
I wondered how they faired agianist the Varroa mites? SHB if there are any in Japan? 
I have a couple hives of mixed A.M. bees, as well being in a swampy area with A.M.M's flying around my feeders and various plants.


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## arthur

I believe japonica is highly resistent to Varroa, having evolved with it. Isn't varroa thought to have arrived in the US from some kind of Asian importation/infestation? So I'm fairly certain that importation of japonica is banned. Plus japonica has little commercial value, as they don't take to Langstroth hives well and are very prone to swarm. I don't know about SHB. If you pose your questions to my father on one of his posts on the blog (just updated today btw), I'm sure he will answer you more specifically.


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## JRing

I am not sure how the V mite arrived in the states. I will investagate, and look into it. I just a curious fellow. I am an education major (math/science), so I am always looking for lesson plan ideas, that I think students will enjoy.
I can't find much about cerana imports to the states, other than they kill the Giant Hornet, which I have seen in documentories, AWESOME! Those things are scary, I would RUN away fast if I saw one. 
I just wondered about the SHB in Japan, since they have closed imports of EU bees. I know they came here via Florida by way of Africa. Florida seems to be a gateway for introducing aliens (non-native animals) to our eco-system. I did not know, if all species of cerana were banned. As I know some species in India are used in honey producton. I enjoyed yall's blog. 
Thanks


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## DelawareJim

Very cool thread Arthur. Thanks.

Cheers.
Jim


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## arthur

My understanding is that apis m. do not do all that well in Japan. It takes a lot of TLC to keep the hives going according to reports from my father who has talked to beekeepers in Japan.

I'm looking forward to my first taste of japonica honey, which I understand is a different experience than apis m. honey.

Btw, it's not that japonica doesn't make honey you can eat, it's that it's not suited for large commercial production.


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## arthur

japonica cutout placed in langstroth style hives...
http://bees.arthurwestover.com/?p=399


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## Stacykins

arthur said:


> japonica cutout placed in langstroth style hives...
> http://bees.arthurwestover.com/?p=399


Too cool! Thanks for sharing! Too bad I didn't know of Apis cerana japonica when I lived in Yokosuka, I would have loved to learn about them firsthand! Even if my spoken Japanese was rusty back then, it was less rusty than it is now!


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## arthur

my father's recent updates and pics from Japan...
our shared blog:

http://bees.arthurwestover.com/


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## arthur

My father took a photo of this japonica swarm. Successfully hived.

Our blog: http://bees.arthurwestover.com/


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## arthur

Lots more updates from my father in Japan with A. c. japonica.

Here's the very latest from last week.

http://bees.arthurwestover.com/?p=823


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## jadebees

There are a few very nice You tube videos on the traditional Japanese hive. There are rumors of these type hives influencing Abbot Warre in his hive designs. 
It would be interesting to set up a Warre hive with the inner parts of the Japanese hive. Said to be a design more than 1000 years old , it's simple, and elegant.
Perhaps wild bees would do well in them, as they are often smaller colonies.


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