# Varroa Mitigation Entrance using Nail Brushes



## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

Hello. 

I have seen some beeks using toothbrushes to scrub the back of bees as they enter the hive. Some have suggested using fingernail brushes for this purpose.

I plan to build a Varroa Mitigation Entrance using 2 fingernail brushes arranged facing each other so that it will scrub both the back and belly of the bees as it goes into or comes out of the hive. It will be 2 brushes facing each other with a small gap in the middle. 

The brushes are about 7cm long, 3.5cm wide and about 1.7cm in thickness from the brush frame to the tip of the brush bristles. I will then arrange them face to face with a middle gap of 5mm. I will then glue them onto a slot onto a shim arrangement similar to an Imirie shim. The shim will be approx. 5cm thick. This shim can be placed in-between hive boxes to act as an additional top or middle entrance.

My question is, what is the proper middle gap that would work for this arrangement? I know that Queen Excluders have a gap of 4.1-4.4mm. This allow workers to pass and blocks queens and drones. 

In your opinion, what should be the proper gap for such a brush arrangement. Is 5mm sufficient for allowing the bees to walk in and out without hurting them too much? If the gap is too wide, it may not brush off the varroa mites. If it is too narrow, it might hurt the bees or maybe screen off its pollen payload like a pollen trap. Is 5mm a good gap distance to allow the bees a comfortable entrance while brushing off the varroa mites without brushing off the pollen load? Once the mites are brushed off, they will fall harmlessly to the ground where hopefully, they will be eaten by chickens. LOL....

What is your opinion?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

My opinion is that you must be trolling the forum. This suggestion even outdoes your previous one!


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I think you have some competition with very deep pockets. I believe Bayer has a device called "Varroa Gate", which has nothing to do with G. Gordon Liddy.
This device coupled with your inner bee brush shim would be great as you could then see if it works. If so you could see what the mite does after it is brushed off. Be warned though, they are fast.

Alex


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## JTGaraas (Jun 7, 2014)

crofter has accurately described the situation. Until JojoJaro establishes he is not making fun of beekeepers, I will keep my social distance from his form of sickness.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Several yrs ago there was a brush setup at the entrance aimed at getting the same results. Quite pricy and I’m sure quite useless as it never got past the “ooo has anybody tried this“? stage.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

crofter said:


> My opinion is that you must be trolling the forum. This suggestion even outdoes your previous one!


What is wrong with you? You can't seem to tolerate new ideas. Would I not be justified in calling you an old fart set in your old outdated ways. Why would I be trolling this forum? What benefit does it give me? Who are you that you should be worthy of being trolled. Open up your mind to new ideas, dude.

I try not to be confrontational but this is over the top.

Here's the link of a guy trying out the toothbrush entrance. There is also the suggestion to use fingernail brushes.

https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/anti-varroa-grooming-tunnel/21444


I deserve an apology now.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

JTGaraas said:


> crofter has accurately described the situation. Until JojoJaro establishes he is not making fun of beekeepers, I will keep my social distance from his form of sickness.


You and crofter go stick your mouth up your ***. Check out this link.

https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/anti-varroa-grooming-tunnel/21444

Have I now established that I am not making fun of beekeepers.

The idea is not a troll and I deserve an apology now. If you won't give it, then screw you.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

AHudd said:


> I think you have some competition with very deep pockets. I believe Bayer has a device called "Varroa Gate", which has nothing to do with G. Gordon Liddy.
> This device coupled with your inner bee brush shim would be great as you could then see if it works. If so you could see what the mite does after it is brushed off. Be warned though, they are fast.
> 
> Alex


Here's the link to an experiment done by one guy. He seems to have success.

https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/anti-varroa-grooming-tunnel/21444

I could let the mite drop down to the ground or simply rig something like this guy - a bucket to catch the mites.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

AHudd said:


> I think you have some competition with very deep pockets. I believe Bayer has a device called "Varroa Gate", which has nothing to do with G. Gordon Liddy.
> This device coupled with your inner bee brush shim would be great as you could then see if it works. If so you could see what the mite does after it is brushed off. Be warned though, they are fast.
> 
> Alex


I got so worked up with the 2 idiots insulting me, that I forgot to respond about the Varroa Gate.

Yes, I've seen the Varroa gate. The problem with it though is that it uses a chemical to kill the mites. I would like a chemical free solution that simply relies on mechanical action to dislodge the mites. That way, the mites will never develop a tolerance for it.

There is a chance of course that the mites will modify their behaviour and simply voluntarily get off the bees and crawl inside on their own, but I don't think mites would be that smart or that adaptable.


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

You missed what AHudd said and knowing about mite life cycle is important. Mites do crawl from bee to bee as well as across comb and other surfaces and are remarkablely quick. If you brush them off they will not just fall to the ground to be eaten by the chickens.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

Where is the moderator of this forum when you need him?

I asked a simple and honest question presenting a genuine idea and I get insulted.

Is this how the moderator wants to run this forum?


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

John Davis said:


> You missed what AHudd said and knowing about mite life cycle is important. Mites do crawl from bee to bee as well as across comb and other surfaces and are remarkablely quick. If you brush them off they will not just fall to the ground to be eaten by the chickens.


OK good point, I did miss that.

What do you suggest?


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

Also, this Varroa Mitigation Entrance will not be the end-all be-all solution. It will be part of a pest mitigation management system which would include Sugar dusting as well as weekly drone cell culling. 

I am already trying to design a hive extension attached to the side of the brood hive where I can put a medium frame with drone cell foundation. This frame will be removable without openning the entire hive. I could put this frame in and wait for the drone cells to be capped and then remove it while it is still capped and feed the whole frame to my chickens.

Someone suggested removing and culling this drone frame weekly to avoid the mites maturing to become a problem. I forgot where I heard it. I believe its in one of the Youtube videos by the National Honey show.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

rwlaw said:


> Several yrs ago there was a brush setup at the entrance aimed at getting the same results. Quite pricy and I’m sure quite useless as it never got past the “ooo has anybody tried this“? stage.


If my shim idea works well and is effective, I don't think it would be that pricey. It is just 2 brushes on a shim of wood or PVC. How pricey can that be?

The guy in the link I provided seems to have good success with it. He did dislodge quite a few mites. There was discussion though on what the proper gap of the brushes should be - hence my post.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

Does this forum have a "Report Abuse" feature? I could certainly use one now but I can't find it.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

Here's the link to Kim Flottum talking about Drone trapping as a means of Varroa Control. Starting at about 24:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_rH9ZEh_-Q&list=RDCMUCiOtIebcpY0Zqqma0H5wLYQ&index=10


The idea appears to be simply Drone Cell culling.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

JojoJaro said:


> I got so worked up with the 2 idiots insulting me, that I forgot to respond about the Varroa Gate.
> 
> Yes, I've seen the Varroa gate. The problem with it though is that it uses a chemical to kill the mites. I would like a chemical free solution that simply relies on mechanical action to dislodge the mites. That way, the mites will never develop a tolerance for it.
> 
> There is a chance of course that the mites will modify their behaviour and simply voluntarily get off the bees and crawl inside on their own, but I don't think mites would be that smart or that adaptable.


Maybe it wasn't Varroa Gate, but there was something that used mechanical removal. Maybe, the name was "Bee Gym", or something similar.
If mites are smart enough to migrate to Drone comb, I think they are smart enough to crawl into a hive once deposited on the BB, but I don't really know.

Alex


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

AHudd said:


> Maybe it wasn't Varroa Gate, but there was something that used mechanical removal. Maybe, the name was "Bee Gym", or something similar.
> If mites are smart enough to migrate to Drone comb, I think they are smart enough to crawl into a hive once deposited on the BB, but I don't really know.
> 
> Alex


Yes, I'm familiar with the Bee Gym also. That, and the link, is where I got the idea of brushing off the mites.

My idea is not unique or original thinking. It is simply a synthesis of the Bee Gym, Pollen Trap and Screen Bottom board ideas. Together with other mitigation strategies like sugar dusting and Drone cell culling, it might be enough to keep mites at bay.


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## hockeyfan_019 (Dec 1, 2019)

Perhaps I am missing something here, but drone bees are substantially bigger than workers, so if the size is perfect for a worker, then drones will probably get trapped by the small opening. And, the same setup will be needed up top too, if there is an upper entrance. Queens seem roughly the same size as a worker when you are looking at them head-on, but it still seems like they'll not be happy with such an arrangement, sort of like a super stiff loofa every time they enter or exit...

Finally though, I'm not sure how "tough" the stupid mites are hanging on. If you've ever had the unpleasant experience of getting stuck with either a tick or a leech, those things hang on like gangbusters when they want to stick. If the brush were aggressive enough to remove the mites, it may also be aggressive enough to remove wings or legs... If such were the situation, I'm confident that several thousand pairs of mandibles would make short work of the offensive blocking bristles in no time.

Regardless, I personally welcome any ideas that might help rid us of these lousy pests, especially if they don't contain chemicals. If the mites are indeed like squirrels, and eventually they're going to keep trying until they make it inside the hive, at least ALL of them might not make it in, and the bees can fend off the rest more easily. Unless we can learn to think "outside the box", we'll be trapped inside forever, with all the old ideas that didn't work, and the hungry disease infested mites


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## vtbeeguy (Jun 10, 2016)

This idea as with the Bee Gym and others are ignoring several things about the mites and how they act that make these methods worthless. Mites aren't just riding along on top or even the bottom of the bee all exposed. They wedge themselves into the gaps between their segments (can't think of the proper name for them) of exoskeleton. They won't be simply "brushed off" and even if the random one were it wouldn't stop them from just jumping on the next bee or crawling back into the hive. Second I would like to address what you said about putting in a medium frame so they can build drone comb on the bottom. Its a good idea. However not worth designing some special thing on the side to put it in. For one the outer most comb rarely gets laid on for 2 it's not at the center of the brood nest where the majority of varroa is so it wouldn't work well. You need to get comfortable enough to get into the center of the brood nest when you need to. But I feel like I would be lying to you if I said I thought your "mite control" methods were going to be enough to keep your hive alive. Sugar dusting is at best very minorly effective at even knocking the mites off forget that most of the mites are in the brood. You need to use an actual treatment. Use organic acids if you want (that's what I use mostly). But without something else you won't be successful. Lastly I can't keep my mouth shut about YOUR ATTITUDE. You are screeching about how a moderator needs to come in here and "do something" but you had no problem insulting some people who have been here and contributed for a long time. If you had done even the basic sorts of research about Varroa you would quickly have understood all the reasons why your idea won't work. Yet you posted up, took immediate offense (whether offense was given or not), and used it as an excuse to show your ASS to the whole forum. Seems to me that the simplest solution for the moderator would be to delete this abortion of thread or maybe better you in general. It's the internet you need to toughen up cupcake...


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

JoJo 
Copper wires at the entrances, Magnets, and placing the hives on intersecting Hartman lines (usually found by dousing) has a long-standing practice as a mite supresseser :lpf::lookout: https://www.electrocultureandmagnetoculture.com/bee-hive-saving-solutions.html

Fringe beekeepers make lots of claims, many evaporate under the weight of scientific scrutiny 

spend some time learning the bee and mite life cycles and you will see why you don't want to be drone culling weekly. 

The guy posted a video of the prototype a year ago, and then disappeared.. never a good sign
Pattens for this sort of thing go back almost 20 years https://patents.google.com/patent/US20030190860
and the brush type like your talking about goes back 12 https://patents.google.com/patent/US20080280528A1/en http://www.kwapiary.com/images/VMCEPDF.PDF

the long and short is its been tryed, people put alot of $$ into it, it never came to market...for some reason today's beekeepers feel they are so much smarter then the ones that came before them 99.99% of there "new" ideas have already been tried and for the most part if its not common knolage, its cuase it didn't work... this problem is exacerbated wen its comeing form someone who isn't displaying basic knowledge of the subject 
If it was even slightly effective we would all be using it (or at least know of it) and china would have knocked it off 10 years ago... heck the "bee gym" came to market


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

From VTbeeguy; 

"Mites aren't just riding along on top or even the bottom of the bee all exposed. They wedge themselves into the gaps between their segments (can't think of the proper name for them) of exoskeleton. They won't be simply "brushed off" and even if the random one were it wouldn't stop them from just jumping on the next bee or crawling back into the hive."

The odd one jockieing momentarily for a change of rides would be knocked off.

The loss of pollen would be very damaging to the colony.

Every potential problem pointed out to to this poster is brushed aside. The level of presumption of authority IS a bit off putting to this old fart. I have entertained my share of what I thought was unique solutions but tended to give each one a point by point feasibility test as I mulled it over. I dont see signs of this process being applied here

I think confirmation is being *demanded* and criticism discarded. Not a good balance in my opinion.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

JojoJaro said:


> I am already trying to design a hive extension attached to the side of the brood hive ...


As you clearly have no first-hand knowledge of honey-bees - why are you trying to design *anything *? Why not simply learn to walk before attempting to run - i.e. learn the basics of beekeeping before trying to improve the hardware ?



> *JojoJaro*: Hello all Beeks, Newbie here. *Hope to learn* from all experienced Beeks here.


I don't think so. Two wacky ideas, 22 posts, and a stand-up row - all within 24 hrs of arriving. That's not my idea of someone intent upon learning from those more experienced than themselves. Not a very good start, methinks ?
LJ


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

hockeyfan_019 said:


> Perhaps I am missing something here, but drone bees are substantially bigger than workers, so if the size is perfect for a worker, then drones will probably get trapped by the small opening. And, the same setup will be needed up top too, if there is an upper entrance. Queens seem roughly the same size as a worker when you are looking at them head-on, but it still seems like they'll not be happy with such an arrangement, sort of like a super stiff loofa every time they enter or exit...


The brush will be set up as a shim so you can put as many as you want. Install as many as you want between hive boxes. I envision one entrance in-between every hive box. So, if you have 1 brood and 3 supers, you can install 4 shims. You would end up with 5 entrances, 1 bottom entrance and 4 shim entrances. In this case, it may be best to close up the bottom entrance and instead install a shim there too, so that you have 5 VMEs. 
Whether that works out for you is a different matter.

The VMEs would work for the queens and drones also. The queen will probably not use it since she won't be coming in and out. For the drones, it will be a tighter squeeze but should be manageable. There is no reason why a separate VME with wider gap can't be made for the drones, although workers will also use that entrance diluting the overall effectiveness of your setup. It might be that you can install a Drone VME on the bottom and regular worker VME for the rest of your shims. The theory is that the drones will use the bottom VME while the foragers would go directly to the top VMEs. 



> Finally though, I'm not sure how "tough" the stupid mites are hanging on. If you've ever had the unpleasant experience of getting stuck with either a tick or a leech, those things hang on like gangbusters when they want to stick. If the brush were aggressive enough to remove the mites, it may also be aggressive enough to remove wings or legs... If such were the situation, I'm confident that several thousand pairs of mandibles would make short work of the offensive blocking bristles in no time.


Well, like I said, this solution will not be the be-all end-all solution. It will be part of an Integrated Pest Management System. The job of the VME is simply to reduce the number of Phoretic mites thereby allowing your other solutions to deliver a significant knock-out punch. Like I said, VMEs with intense and regular sugar dusting and Drone Cell culling might do the job. Since I want to be chemical-free, these 3 solutions seems to be the only ones available to me. Do you know of any other chemical-free Varroa control solution?

The link I included seems to have some success with toothbrushes. He did manage to dislodge quite a few mites. The main question really is the size of the gap. Hence, this post.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

vtbeeguy said:


> This idea as with the Bee Gym and others are ignoring several things about the mites and how they act that make these methods worthless. Mites aren't just riding along on top or even the bottom of the bee all exposed. They wedge themselves into the gaps between their segments (can't think of the proper name for them) of exoskeleton. They won't be simply "brushed off" and even if the random one were it wouldn't stop them from just jumping on the next bee or crawling back into the hive.


Maybe true but using VMEs would be better than doing nothing.



> Second I would like to address what you said about putting in a medium frame so they can build drone comb on the bottom. Its a good idea. However not worth designing some special thing on the side to put it in.


Not worth it for you... does not mean not worth it for me.



> For one the outer most comb rarely gets laid on for 2 it's not at the center of the brood nest where the majority of varroa is so it wouldn't work well. You need to get comfortable enough to get into the center of the brood nest when you need to. But I feel like I would be lying to you if I said I thought your "mite control" methods were going to be enough to keep your hive alive. Sugar dusting is at best very minorly effective at even knocking the mites off forget that most of the mites are in the brood. You need to use an actual treatment. Use organic acids if you want (that's what I use mostly). But without something else you won't be successful.


Maybe you are too busy trying to insult me to really perceive what I posted, but didn't I say the VMEs are part of an overall solution? VMEs, sugar dusting and drone cell culling. If you are comfortable poisoning your bees with organic acids, whose effectiveness appear to be waning, then all power to you. I for one, do not want to poison my bees and the honey I eat.

Randy Olivier, whose experience and knowledge I trust more than you, is saying regular Sugar Dusting every 4-5 days for the entire Varroa life cycle of 15-20 days may be significant in reducing the mite load. It appears you have not read that. So more power to you if you want to remain ignorant and close-minded.



> Lastly I can't keep my mouth shut about YOUR ATTITUDE. You are screeching about how a moderator needs to come in here and "do something" but you had no problem insulting some people who have been here and contributed for a long time.


I have only posted a few dozen times, search it to see if I have insulted anybody FIRST. I only respond to idiots who feel that since they have posted here a lot, that they have a right be the judge of what ideas are worth discussing in this forum.

Well, offense intended, but my ideas are simply a synthesis of what Kim Flottum and Randy Olivier have been saying, and sorry to pop your bubble but I trust their opinions more than you. Just because you are a long time poster does not mean your opinions have merit. 

Discuss the merits and demerits of an idea without resorting to personal insult. Is that possible? 



> If you had done even the basic sorts of research about Varroa you would quickly have understood all the reasons why your idea won't work. Yet you posted up, took immediate offense (whether offense was given or not), and used it as an excuse to show your ASS to the whole forum. Seems to me that the simplest solution for the moderator would be to delete this abortion of thread or maybe better you in general. It's the internet you need to toughen up cupcake...


I will absolutely take offense. I will not start the insults but I will respond to it. Why can't we be civilized and discuss the idea instead of personal attacks.

If the moderator wants a forum where insults dominate the discussion, that is fine with me. I can throw down with the best of you. The reason why I appealed to the moderator is so that he can do his job and control the discussion to be free of insults. Is that too much to ask?


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

msl said:


> Fringe beekeepers make lots of claims, many evaporate under the weight of scientific scrutiny
> 
> spend some time learning the bee and mite life cycles and you will see why you don't want to be drone culling weekly.


Watch the video of Kim Flottum discussing weekly drone cell culling. He calls it Drone Trapping.

I have studied the bee and mite life cycle and I can understand where Kim is coming from. His ideas of Drone Trapping have merit.

My question to you is have you tried what he is advocating? If not, how do you know it's not a good idea.

Well, you seem to be critical of Drone cell culling, What is your solution to the mite problem?



> The guy posted a video of the prototype a year ago, and then disappeared.. never a good sign
> Pattens for this sort of thing go back almost 20 years https://patents.google.com/patent/US20030190860
> and the brush type like your talking about goes back 12 https://patents.google.com/patent/US20080280528A1/en http://www.kwapiary.com/images/VMCEPDF.PDF
> 
> ...


Well, all I know is the guy in the link I posted appears to have some success with his toothbrush tunnel entrance. Success like that, whether it eventually pans out, is worth looking into.

Will my VME idea eventually pan out, I hope it does, I think it will, but it will never happen if people start having knee-jerk reactions that it won't work. 

Let's try to be open minded. We don't loose too much by being open-minded and discuss. It does not cost us too much to discuss. If you are so offended by somebody bringing up an idea, whether it is truly a new idea or a rehash, simply not participate. No one if forcing you to participate in the thread. What is not acceptable is for you to suppress the idea as a few have done here because they feel that they are a long time poster and hence have the God-like authority to decide what is worthy of being discuss or not. It is bad enough for one to try to suppress an idea like some have done here, it is worse to resort to insults if your attempt to suppress does not work.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I am but one of several moderators and I am taking note of what is being said here. Jojo, you are new to this forum and quickly alienating yourself from some very knowlegable and experienced beekeepers. Innovative ideas are always welcome, but if you ask for opinions, you should expect some to be negative. Your reference to posioning the bees and the honey by use of organic acids for mite control clearly displays how much you have yet to learn about beekeeping and varroa treatment/control in particular. If you are reading Randy Oliver's work, you know that he is concentrating on Oxalic Acid and various delivery mechanisms for the control of the Varroa destructor mite. It has already proven itself to be both safe and effective if used properly. The methods you have described are all old news and have been proven over and over not to be effective at control, even when used in conjunction with one another. I hope that you will take the advice freely offered by Beesource members under serious consideration. The only thing asked for in return is that you become a better beekeeper, a goal we all are working towards.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

little_john said:


> As you clearly have no first-hand knowledge of honey-bees - why are you trying to design *anything *? Why not simply learn to walk before attempting to run - i.e. learn the basics of beekeeping before trying to improve the hardware ?


Well, beeks have been trying to solve the Varroa problem for decades without too much success. The status quo is simply unacceptable. Something radical has to be propose.

It's not that difficult.

My hive extension is simply an extension of the well proven Langstroth system. The intent is to be able to remove a drone frame regularly, like weekly, without harassing the bees that often. By putting the Drone frame to the side with it's own independent cover, you can remove it to cull it without disturbing the bees too much. The idea is not unique or original. I've seen some people putting 8-frame boxes on top of 10-frame boxes creating what is essentially a side panel area where the outermost frames can be removed independently. What is so difficult with that?



> I don't think so. Two wacky ideas, 22 posts, and a stand-up row - all within 24 hrs of arriving. That's not my idea of someone intent upon learning from those more experienced than themselves. Not a very good start, methinks ?
> LJ


What is your basis for deciding an idea is "wacky"? Have you tried any of them? Like I said, your status quo ideas are simply unacceptable. Your old ideas simply do not work. The Varroa problem has been getting worse in the decades where we have been accepting your status quo ideas. Something rather radical has to be proposed. 

I don't know about you, but I do not want to be in the company of "established" experts who were convinced the Light Bulb or a Flying machine is wacky. That is how some are acting here. They are so offended that someone is proposing a radical new way of doing things, that they have to resort to "wacky" name calling and personal insults. It doesn't have to be that way.

Whether my ideas of VMEs or Transparent Hives pan out is for history to decide, not you. It does not cost you or hurt you if I try my own ideas. Discuss or keep quiet. No need to suppress or insult.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

JojoJaro said:


> Well, you seem to be critical of Drone cell culling, What is your solution to the mite problem?


Drone culling alone will not solve a mite problem, but it can contribute if you have a whole basket of things working to reduce mites. Been there, done that, to much work for to little return. Much easier and more effective to put formic acid pads into the hive.



JojoJaro said:


> Will my VME idea eventually pan out, I hope it does, I think it will, but it will never happen if people start having knee-jerk reactions that it won't work.


You are perfectly free to put it on all of your hives then report back in a year or two about how well it worked. But, you are correct, it'll never happen if you expect somebody else to do it just because you think it's a good idea. My opinion after having bees for a decade and dealing with mites for that time, it's a dumb idea, but my knee jerk reaction certainly doesn't stop you from doing it, just means I'm not going to waste any time or effort in that direction.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Jojo, since you mentioned Kim Flottum and drone brood culling, thought I would share this article from Jan. 2018 in which he also recommends the use of soft treatments, ie, organic acids. He discourages the use of essential oils and chemical treatments.

https://www.grit.com/animals/bees/guide-to-beekeeping-varroa-rules-ze0z1801zmcg


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

JWPalmer said:


> I am but one of several moderators and I am taking note of what is being said here. Jojo, you are new to this forum and quickly alienating yourself from some very knowlegable and experienced beekeepers. Innovative ideas are always welcome, but if you ask for opinions, you should expect some to be negative.


I don't mind the negative opinions at all. In fact, you can see that I have been discussing the negative merits of my ideas freely and transparently. I have changed my mind on an occasion or two when someone pointed out the disadvantages. I welcome those negative comments. In fact, that is the whole reason of why I came here. I hope that is apparent to you.

What is unacceptable, whether I'm new or not, is the personal insults. I appealed to you as a moderator and wanted to find out what your stand is. Is it OK to you for forum members to be trading insults? Because I can resort to that kind of Base behaviour. What I would rather have is a civil discussion of the merit and demerits of the ideas.



> Your reference to posioning the bees and the honey by use of organic acids for mite control clearly displays how much you have yet to learn about beekeeping and varroa treatment/control in particular.


Oh, I did not originate the "poisoning" comment when using chemicals. Many are of the opinion that using Formic or Oxalic acids, or hop guard or other organic acids as poisoning. Contrary to your perception, I am aware and familiar with all of the Varroa control solutions out there. I am not totally ignorant on this matter.



> If you are reading Randy Oliver's work, you know that he is concentrating on Oxalic Acid and various delivery mechanisms for the control of the Varroa destructor mite. It has already proven itself to be both safe and effective if used properly.


Some are of the opinion that Oxalic and formic and other organic acids are NOT safe. I am in that camp. I want to find another way. I hope that is OK with people here.

More specifically, I am referring to Randy's sugar dusting piece. He seems to be suggesting rapid sugar dusting every 4-5 days for the entire life cycle of the varroa of 15-20 days. I think we should try that. If somebody has already tried that and found it to be ineffective, I'd like to read about it. Do you have a link for that?

I'd like to try that but my small Apis cerana colonies do not appear to have a lot of Varroa.



> The methods you have described are all old news and have been proven over and over not to be effective at control, even when used in conjunction with one another. I hope that you will take the advice freely offered by Beesource members under serious consideration. The only thing asked for in return is that you become a better beekeeper, a goal we all are working towards.


I do, I do. I take all opinions seriously. And quite frankly, I have changed my mind on a couple of them. If opinions are truly what is being offered, I have gladly accepted them. I hope that has been apparent to you.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

grozzie2 said:


> Drone culling alone will not solve a mite problem, but it can contribute if you have a whole basket of things working to reduce mites. Been there, done that, to much work for to little return. Much easier and more effective to put formic acid pads into the hive.


Well, you are right. Drone culling alone will not work. That is why I am including VMEs and rapid sugar dusting to the repertoire. Do you know of any other non-chemical means?

I am not fond of the formic acid solution. For one, it won't work here in the tropics. The temps are too hot. Second, I am not totally convince it is 100% safe, if it were, it shouldn't be killing bees when temps are high.




> You are perfectly free to put it on all of your hives then report back in a year or two about how well it worked. But, you are correct, it'll never happen if you expect somebody else to do it just because you think it's a good idea. My opinion after having bees for a decade and dealing with mites for that time, it's a dumb idea, but my knee jerk reaction certainly doesn't stop you from doing it, just means I'm not going to waste any time or effort in that direction.


Alas, I can not do it. My small Apis cerana colonies do not have a lot of Varroa. I would really like to try it on Apis mellifera. Hence, this thread. 

I am working on importing some Apis mellifera Italians but it is impossible in this COVID-19 environment.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

JWPalmer said:


> Jojo, since you mentioned Kim Flottum and drone brood culling, thought I would share this article from Jan. 2018 in which he also recommends the use of soft treatments, ie, organic acids. He discourages the use of essential oils and chemical treatments.
> 
> https://www.grit.com/animals/bees/guide-to-beekeeping-varroa-rules-ze0z1801zmcg


Well, in his talk at the National Honey Show, he mentioned using Drone Trapping (aka Drone Cell Culling) keeping his varroa in check without any mention of "soft" treatments. He is not even using sugar dusting.

What I proposed is a 3-pronged approach. VMEs on all hive entrances together with Rapid Regular sugar dusting of Randy, together with the Drone Cell Culling technique of Kim. I am hoping this would be effective in keeping varroa in check. Any opinions on that?


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

crofter said:


> From VTbeeguy;
> 
> "Mites aren't just riding along on top or even the bottom of the bee all exposed. They wedge themselves into the gaps between their segments (can't think of the proper name for them) of exoskeleton. They won't be simply "brushed off" and even if the random one were it wouldn't stop them from just jumping on the next bee or crawling back into the hive."
> 
> ...


You just can't stand it when people have ideas that did not originate from you. You perceive yourself as an "expert" that you can't stand other independent ideas just because you did not come up with it.

You need to come to grips with the reality that you are not that smart. You may have experience but not the wisdom to think outside the box.

I did not originate these ideas. VMEs came from the Bee Gym. Rapid Sugar Dusting came from Randy Oliver. Drone Cell Culling came from Kim Flottum. Do you feel that you are smarter and more experienced than these guys? I trust the opinion of these guys, but not yours.

Stick to the merits and demerits without insults. Is that too much to ask?

BTW, I will gladly stand down and stop insulting you if you stop insulting me. Well, in fact, I will be the bigger man and stop insulting you from this time forward.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

That question is best posted on the treatment-free sub-forum. As someone who treats his hives (OAV only) I am in no position to asses the overall effectiveness of your IPM program, only to report what others have found to be true. Each of the steps outlined are known to have some affect on varroa populations, wheather those three combined in your specific location will be sufficient is only something time will tell. I am of the opinion that you are determined, a good thing, and still a little idealistic, not so much a good thing in this case. You are also a bit confrontational. This is not necessarily a bad thing except that you are also a bit light on actual experience and that does not make for a good combination. I do hope that you will try these ideas and report back on their sucess or failure. Too many new beekeepers start off full of passion with a host of what are refered to as fringe ideas and after six months or so of them touting how all of the older guys are stuck in the dark ages, they disappear, just like all of their bees.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

msl said:


> JoJo
> The guy posted a video of the prototype a year ago, and then disappeared.. never a good sign
> Pattens for this sort of thing go back almost 20 years https://patents.google.com/patent/US20030190860
> and the brush type like your talking about goes back 12 https://patents.google.com/patent/US20080280528A1/en http://www.kwapiary.com/images/VMCEPDF.PDF


Now that I've had some time to look at your 3 entries above, I can comment on it.

The first patent entry is a complicated contraption with mechanical agitation. Too complex to build and quite likely expensive. These are the reason why it did not succeed.

The second entry is simply a design very similar to a pollen trap. The screen was intended to dislodge the mite like it would dislodge a pollen load. The screen probably is too large and the gap static which would allow the mites to move away. This is the reason why it failed much like why a simple pollen trap would be ineffective at dislodging mites.

The first 2 examples you have is no where close to what I have in mind. Their failure can not be used to justify that my VME would fail as they work using totally different mechanisms.

The third example you have is closest to my idea. Brushes on top and bottom on the entrance to brush off the mites. Should work but I think I know why it failed. 

The brushes are not deep enough. Once the mites are able to evade that single row of brushes, they are home free to enter the hive. My VME is deeper at 3.5cm deep. There are four rows of bristles on the brushes. More chances to scrub and flick the mites away from the bees. 

Also, I think his gap is too wide and too uniform. On my VME, I will be using bristles that are grouped into bundles with small 1mm gaps between bundles, not like the uniform bristles on the picture. Also, the bristles would be of different lengths much like a modern toothbrush with longer and shorter bristles. What this does is essentially create "tunnel" like gaps that the bees can work thru. The shorter bristle bundles would scrub the back and belly of the bees with the longer bristles would scrub some of its sides. Of course, it is critical for the bristles to be gapped correctly to match the size of the bee's body - hence this post.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

JWPalmer said:


> That question is best posted on the treatment-free sub-forum. As someone who treats his hives (OAV only) I am in no position to asses the overall effectiveness of your IPM program, only to report what others have found to be true. Each of the steps outlined are known to have some affect on varroa populations, wheather those three combined in your specific location will be sufficient is only something time will tell. I am of the opinion that you are determined, a good thing, and still a little idealistic, not so much a good thing in this case. You are also a bit confrontational. This is not necessarily a bad thing except that you are also a bit light on actual experience and that does not make for a good combination. I do hope that you will try these ideas and report back on their sucess or failure. Too many new beekeepers start off full of passion with a host of what are refered to as fringe ideas and after six months or so of them touting how all of the older guys are stuck in the dark ages, they disappear, just like all of their bees.


Thanks for the reasonable response without the insult. I truly appreciate it.

I am in for the long haul. I will try my ideas and many others which I am now loathe to post here given the knee-jerk reactions of the "experts" here. This is not a good recipe to encourage innovation and out of the box thinking.

I will post the results as soon as I have tried them, positive or not. Though I hope that you take action to discourage the inappropriate responses I have received here. It's just not helpful. I think you know who I mean.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

For the record, the 'exclamation point in the black triangle', (located on the left side of the gray bar at the bottom of each message, when viewed on a desktop system) is the "Report Post" button.

However, don't expect that simply because someone reports a given post that that post will be edited or deleted. A careful reading of this thread will show that the only posts edited by a Moderator are [some] of those by JoJoJaro. Using swear words is the fastest way to get a message edited or deleted by a Moderator. Find another way to express yourself.

Finally, the members pointing out the 'shortcomings' of the plans as outlined by JoJoJaro are experienced beekeepers. That doesn't mean that they are infallible, but the voice of experience should be considered seriously by those that do not have that experience themselves.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> For the record, the 'exclamation point in the black triangle', (located on the left side of the gray bar at the bottom of each message, when viewed on a desktop system) is the "Report Post" button.


Thanks for that.



> However, don't expect that simply because someone reports a given post that that post will be edited or deleted. A careful reading of this thread will show that the only posts edited by a Moderator are [some] of those by JoJoJaro. Using swear words is the fastest way to get a message edited or deleted by a Moderator. Find another way to express yourself.


Where did I use a swear word? I only responded with an insult when I am insulted.



> Finally, the members pointing out the 'shortcomings' of the plans as outlined by JoJoJaro are experienced beekeepers. That doesn't mean that they are infallible, but the voice of experience should be considered seriously by those that do not have that experience themselves.


commenting on shortcomings are welcome. Insults and personal attacks are not.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I believe the brushes will catch a few mites but with the mites already in the hive multiplying at an exponential rate, the brushes will never make a large dent in the population. It also might work better late in the summer and early fall when hives begin to die from mites and they start getting carried from hive to hive at a higher rate. However, I hope I am proven wrong and it works great. Good luck with your experiment. Also, as far as getting pissed off at your fellow posters, take it as a challenge and prove them wrong. People laughed at and made fun of Edison, Tesla and the Wright Brothers just to name a few. Are you up to the challenge?

I came up with a high tech idea a few years back but nobody jumped on it and patented it. My idea was to place computer controlled mini lasers in the hive that have sensors to find mites on the individual bees. When it senses a mite, the lasers zaps the mite and saves the bee. It would cost millions to develop but I am sure some young computer genius could make it work.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

dudelt said:


> I believe the brushes will catch a few mites but with the mites already in the hive multiplying at an exponential rate, the brushes will never make a large dent in the population. It also might work better late in the summer and early fall when hives begin to die from mites and they start getting carried from hive to hive at a higher rate. However, I hope I am proven wrong and it works great. Good luck with your experiment.


The VMEs are just one part of the overall solution.
Regular sugar dusting will take care of the phoretic mites inside the hive.
Drone cell culling will take care of some mites in the drone brood.

hopefully all 3 solutions used in a consistent fashion would be enough to keep the mites at bay



> Also, as far as getting pissed off at your fellow posters, take it as a challenge and prove them wrong. People laughed at and made fun of Edison, Tesla and the Wright Brothers just to name a few. Are you up to the challenge?


It's unfortunate that I had to deal with some posters in a manner that I did not like from myself. I expected more professional behavior and more open mindedness. 



> I came up with a high tech idea a few years back but nobody jumped on it and patented it. My idea was to place computer controlled mini lasers in the hive that have sensors to find mites on the individual bees. When it senses a mite, the lasers zaps the mite and saves the bee. It would cost millions to develop but I am sure some young computer genius could make it work.


LOL.... but you'll be surprised if the DOD already has something like that.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> I came up with a high tech idea a few years back but nobody jumped on it and patented it. My idea was to place computer controlled mini lasers in the hive that have sensors to find mites on the individual bees.


https://thebeereport.com/2019/08/07/lasers-a-new-method-to-control-varroa-mites-in-honey-bees/
Austin powers, sharks, with fricken laser beams on it head killing mites

JOJO I showed you patents that cost more then my truck is worth new (and I sure as **** didn't by it new), that came to zero income, but are in efect and will stop you from makeing this product
you're in the Kruger/Dunning trap, without getting over political its why HS age burger flippers feel they are worth as much or more than EMTs and why teenagers and 3rd-year beekeepers know everything https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10626367

not coming at you high brow... just a beekeeper, and a product developer, who has had the bees, and the word show him he got a bit too big for his britches.
you asked for feedback and got it, your target market is unconvinced. 
come back with a completed product and test results... 
you asking for the distance between brushes to remove an economically viable amount of mites if anyone here knew, why would they tell you? Vs make it them selfs and sell it

I realy appreciate you enthosuation, but the lack of basic beekeeping education is a problem... learn to keep bees, if your still around in a few years (many arnt) we will talk 
grasping at random internet straws in hope you and all your "experience" are more enlightened than the "stupid" beekeepers before you is a poor way forward, its not inspiration, its often a failure



> I expected more professional behavior and more open mindedness.


bahahahaha... Kettle calling the pot black, your on your own now... I did try
hit me up in 5 years when you have a tested beta test unit, not a pipe dream, a peer reviewed study and have treatment vs control data on 100+ hives and 3 replicates in different climates. 

I know it sounds harsh, but till then it sounds like another visit from the "good Ideal fairy" (can any one say OA in a bug fogger), someone selling snake oil, or a noob with no clue 

prove me wrong, not an insult, a challenge, we would all be much better if you were right... 
who wins at vegas, the card counter, or the guy who makes the random bet...


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

JojoJaro said:


> I expected more professional behavior ....





> You and crofter *go [ (moderator edited ................... end edit)]*
> 
> The idea is not a troll and I deserve an apology now. If you won't give it, then*[ (moderator edited ................... end edit)].*


Pot - kettle - black. Foul-mouthed, with too much ego, too much arrogance, and probably with too much coffee inside you - unless it's something you're smoking ...

I tried to help you with your first 'wacky' post, as I really like to help beginners whenever possible - but it has become fairly clear to me from your second wacky post (and I see there's now a third - in just 48 hrs after arrival) that you want to talk and not listen. Learning involves listening, but it appears that you don't have either the capacity or the willingness to do that.

Don't take my word for this - trawl through the forum's past posts - say, during the last 2 or 3 years - see if you can find even one instance of a newcomer being disruptive or complaining about the way in which they've been treated. I can tell you now that you won't find a single one. So what makes you different ? What makes you so special ?

Do yourself a favour and take a look through the beekeeping patents which have been filed since around 1850 - there are many thousands of them. But how many have been taken up by others during this same period ? Less than a handful.

How many beekeepers have there been - world-wide - since the days of Langstroth ? The number must run into the millions. And yet YOU - without any hands-on knowledge of beekeeping whatsoever - can see possibilities that no-one else has ever seen. Don't you realise that you are effectively saying that the existing beekeeping community must be very stupid indeed. And you wonder why your posts are not being well-received ...
LJ


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

JojoJaro said:


> LOL.... but you'll be surprised if the DOD already has something like that.


Wish we did. Would make a nice tool in our integrated vector control tool kit. Betting this idea came from the laser mosquito zapper the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation was funding development of. Keys in on wing beat frequency to locate then zap them mid-flight. 

Reading through this thread I will just say there are two ways to learn. Vicariously, which is what has made the human species so successful. Or by doing, in which case you may need to repeat the failures of others. Both will get you to the same place, one just costs more and takes longer. A little knowledge can be dangerous when it breeds assumptions that focus your acceptance or denial of objective facts to support your opinion.

I, too, started on the treatment free band wagon building my own Warre hives with windows. Had many of the same ideas you had. I quickly migrated to langstroths for various reasons and began using organic acids/thymol to help combat Varroa--and sometimes Apivar in the summer heat before winter bee production. I think treatment free can work but I currently do not have the space and isolation to make it work. So, rather than continually killing bees, I changed my practices. Think of it this way: If you had a dairy cow, you would not just turn her out into a pasture to fend for herself and expect to actually still get milk and calf from her. Trying it is a sure way to kill her--even on the most lush and permanent pasture. Things like milk fever (Ca deficiency when she first starts lactating) would kill her off w/out some kind of medical (Ca transfusion) therapy. 

Bees are better looked at as domesticated animals that need husbandry to produce what we want from them.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

JClark said:


> Wish we did. Would make a nice tool in our integrated vector control tool kit. Betting this idea came from the laser mosquito zapper the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation was funding development of. Keys in on wing beat frequency to locate then zap them mid-flight.
> 
> Reading through this thread I will just say there are two ways to learn. Vicariously, which is what has made the human species so successful. Or by doing, in which case you may need to repeat the failures of others. Both will get you to the same place, one just costs more and takes longer. A little knowledge can be dangerous when it breeds assumptions that focus your acceptance or denial of objective facts to support your opinion.
> 
> ...


I hear you, but in your opinion, the 3 prong approach of VMEs, rapid regular sugar dusting and Drone cell culling is insufficient?

Kim Flottum appears to be saying Drone cell culling alone is sufficient to control mite populations. So I would say that adding Rapid Sugar Dusting and VMEs to it would be even more effective.

I really can't bring myself to consider chemical treatment, even if it is supposedly "soft" chemical treatment. Formic and oxalic acids are pretty nasty stuff.

I wish I can breed a hybrid of my cerana with some mellifera. My cerana girls do not have varroa issues, but boy are they swarmy. They swarm at the slightest twitch. That's why I wanted to devise a way to manage them without disrupting them. That was one of the reasons for my Transparent Hive idea.


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

Regular sugar dusting is a feel good but ineffective and labor intensive tactic. See study by Jamie Ellis at the University of Florida.
Drone brood culling does help slow down the mite increase but does not stop it or help with the mites brought in by robbing or drone drift.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

One of the issues I see with drone cell culling as a primary means of mite control is that varroa populations and the influx from robbing activities are on an increase at a time when the bees are no longer producing drones. Pehaps it is different where you are, but there are very few drones being produced here in the States after mid-summer.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

John Davis said:


> Regular sugar dusting is a feel good but ineffective and labor intensive tactic. See study by Jamie Ellis at the University of Florida.
> Drone brood culling does help slow down the mite increase but does not stop it or help with the mites brought in by robbing or drone drift.





JWPalmer said:


> One of the issues I see with drone cell culling as a primary means of mite control is that varroa populations and the influx from robbing activities are on an increase at a time when the bees are no longer producing drones. Pehaps it is different where you are, but there are very few drones being produced here in the States after mid-summer.


You're both right, hence my VME proposal. VMEs are intended to knock off the phoretic mites riding on robbers and foragers. All three approaches must be used consistently to make a difference.

Also, the sugar dusting I am talking about is the "rapid regular" sugar dusting advocated by Randy Oliver. It is sugar dusting every 4-5 days for the entire 15-20 days of varroa life cycle. I understand his reasoning for it. It is essentially to knock off varroa as soon as it emerges from the brood cell. If you do that, in theory you will knock off all the varroa. Those varroa that are still in brood cells should be knocked off on the 2nd dusting. Those still in the brood during your 2nd dusting should be knocked off on your third dusting and so forth.

As far as Drone cell culling. Kim actually calls it Drone Trapping. The idea is to put in a drone frame to entice the queen to lay drones. This would entice the mites to enter these drone cells. Remove and cull these drone frames weekly, which would not allow the mites to hatch out. Put several of these drone frames and the queen will always lay drones and mites will always have a nice place to go. You are using drones to entice the mites to be trapped and culled. He said, it works and he does not have mite problems anymore.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

John Davis said:


> ... labor intensive tactic.


Yes dusting is labor intensive. But there may be a way to make your labor more efficient.

Consider that you have say a couple of colonies. You can open the top super and put a screen. Then put your powdered sugar. Then, (don't laugh, I am truly serious) put a vibrator on it. (The kind that women use for fun.). Then walk away and take care of the 2nd colony. Repeat that for all your colonies. By the time you reach your last colony, the vibrator would have finish vibrating the powdered sugar on your first colony. If you do this procedure, you can dust a significant number of colonies in no time.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Folks, the only way to stop this kind of stupidity is to stop feeding the troll. The more you feed the troll, the stupider the suggestions will get.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

JojoJaro said:


> Yes dusting is labor intensive. But there may be a way to make your labor more efficient.
> 
> Consider that you have say a couple of colonies. You can open the top super and put a screen. Then put your powdered sugar. Then, (don't laugh, I am truly serious) put a vibrator on it. (The kind that women use for fun.). Then walk away and take care of the 2nd colony. Repeat that for all your colonies. By the time you reach your last colony, the vibrator would have finish vibrating the powdered sugar on your first colony. If you do this procedure, you can dust a significant number of colonies in no time.


Well, I asked. She said I can have her vibrator when I pry it from her cold, dead hands.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

grozzie2 said:


> Folks, the only way to stop this kind of stupidity is to stop feeding the troll. The more you feed the troll, the stupider the suggestions will get.


An idea is stupid to those who are not smart enough to understand the implications of the idea.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

JoJO
How many hives did you bring threw winter so far this year?


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

msl said:


> JoJO
> How many hives did you bring threw winter so far this year?


None, I did not bring any hives "threw" (sic) winter. We don't have winters. 

If you are interested in proper discussion, you should have read my responses and known this. I keep saying I'm in the tropics and I have cerana. That should have been enough to figure this out.

If it is your intent to discuss, then discuss with civility. If not, then please go away. I do not have the time nor the inclination to argue with you.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

Grins said:


> Well, I asked. She said I can have her vibrator when I pry it from her cold, dead hands.


LOL...

Well buy some extra ones. They're cheap at Alibaba or AliExpress, though I don't think they can ship it now.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Ha
you did say that, but it was in the middle of a try rate of 4 back to back posts..guess I had tuned out by then..
this is the kind of thing you need to put in your OP
you hop on here asking for a spacing recommendation, and citing works on European honey bees how, could we even help you if we don't know your running much smaller bees of a type almost no one hear has kept that naturaly survives varroa


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

Jojojaro, have you tried a small trapeez at the entrance to the hive. Force the bees to swing across into the hive and the centrifugal force at the bottom of the arc will force the mites to drop off right off into the beaks of waiting chickens.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

msl said:


> Ha
> you did say that, but it was in the middle of a try rate of 4 back to back posts..guess I had tuned out by then..
> this is the kind of thing you need to put in your OP
> you hop on here asking for a spacing recommendation, and citing works on European honey bees how, could we even help you if we don't know your running much smaller bees of a type almost no one hear has kept that naturaly survives varroa


Then why the hostility? Quite obviously you were operating under incomplete information and yet you act like a know it all.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

Tim KS said:


> Jojojaro, have you tried a small trapeez at the entrance to the hive. Force the bees to swing across into the hive and the centrifugal force at the bottom of the arc will force the mites to drop off right off into the beaks of waiting chickens.


Great Idea, I will try it out. I will make sure to let you know of the results and give you due credit for your brilliant idea.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

> If it is your intent to discuss, then discuss with civility. If not, then please go away. I do not have the time nor the inclination to argue with you.


Jojo, you are asking others to discuss your ideas with civility, yet you call those who disagree with you "stupid". Not exactly a page out of a Dale Carnagie's book. Beesource is a forum to learn how to keep bees, what works, what does not. If you choose not to learn from the mistakes of the thousands of beekeepers who have gone before you, then you are free to make those mistakes on your own.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

problem is you asked a bunch of duck farmers (on a duck farming forum) a question about your birds not swimming and didn't tell them you were keeping chickens
Then you get mad at them when they don't understand why your birds can't swim

most of us here can't even fathom why you would take such actions with A. cerana in a tropical area.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Msl, jojo did state the he intended to get A.mellifera. ligustica but was being delayed by current events. He posed his original questions relating to mellifera but is now talking about the A. cerana that he currently has. He should be able to try out his theories, transparent hive, soaker hose, etc. on them. The brush idea will have to wait until he has bees that will die from varroa.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

JWPalmer said:


> Jojo, you are asking others to discuss your ideas with civility, yet you call those who disagree with you "stupid". Not exactly a page out of a Dale Carnagie's book. Beesource is a forum to learn how to keep bees, what works, what does not. If you choose not to learn from the mistakes of the thousands of beekeepers who have gone before you, then you are free to make those mistakes on your own.


I will only respond with incivility for every incivility that comes my way. An insult will be insulted. Check out all my posts to see if that is not true.

While we're in this topic, did you even chastise grozzie2 for hijacking my thread, calling me a troll and stupid? 

If I am indeed trolling your forum, then it is within your power to cut it off. But thus far, neither of you two moderators have done that. It is because you recognize that I am discussing valid and legitimate issues. If so, then let me have the freedom to discuss it without harassment. Is that too much to ask?

If it is, then let me know and I'll leave you folks alone.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

JWPalmer said:


> Msl, jojo did state the he intended to get A.mellifera. ligustica but was being delayed by current events. He posed his original questions relating to mellifera but is now talking about the A. cerana that he currently has. He should be able to try out his theories, transparent hive, soaker hose, etc. on them. The brush idea will have to wait until he has bees that will die from varroa.


Actually, none of my major ideas can be currently tried with my small cerana colonies. I can not buy any of the materials I need. Not the transparent PVC boards, nor the soaker hoses, nor the brushes. I have many other ideas that are on hold.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

JojoJaro said:


> I will only respond with incivility for every incivility that comes my way. An insult will be insulted. Check out all my posts to see if that is not true.


That is not going to happen any longer. You will be gone if you try that.



JojoJaro said:


> While we're in this topic, did you even chastise grozzie2 for hijacking my thread, calling me a troll and stupid?


NOT "Discussing moderation" in a public thread is one of the rules you agreed to when you joined the forum.
_
Step carefully_ if you wish to continue to post to Beesource.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> That is not going to happen any longer. You will be gone if you try that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't worry, I'm out of here. If you moderators will not even enforce your own rules, then so be it. 

As the Q would say "Savage race don't even follow their own rules"

I have neither the time nor the inclination to participate in a fascist board with no even handedness or fairness. I've receive very little information anyways. The insult to information ratio leaves much to be desired.


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## JojoJaro (Mar 16, 2020)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> That is not going to happen any longer. You will be gone if you try that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How does one unsubscribe from this forum? Please remove my email address from your records and to stop spamming me.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Very well then. We have tried to be fair, giving you much more leeway in your comments to others than is normally tolerated. You were the beneficiary of our largesse. I wish you well with your ideas.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

JojoJaro said:


> The insult to information ratio leaves much to be desired.


Pretty much the conclusion at which the moderating team had arrived.

paalam jojo.


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