# A few KTBH construction questions



## TALittle (May 7, 2016)

I did not plan to start this for some time. However, I told a couple of friends I was going to build some bee hives for my ranch and last Friday one of them called to tell me that her work had a bunch of pallets. She had spoken with the boss and I was free to come grab some to use for free wood.

I am not one to pass up free anything, lol. So I stopped in and grabbed 7 pallets. As well as some framed plywood that came off shipping crates.









Not the best as each pallet only has 6 slats, but each slat is just over 5-1/2" wide and 44" long. I spent Saturday breaking them down, removing nails, and sorting them.









In the first stack the board have something wrong with the, not straight cuts, are split, or just not a good board. That second stack came off of one pallet, they are 1/2" thick and a dark hard wood. I think it is mahogany. The Third and forth stack are good board and the last stack has boards with knot holes.









I butt joined two of the boards with glue and a small piece of the dark wood. I was going to screw them together but that turned out to be a lot of trouble. It was much easier to use the nematic stapler with 1.5" staples. 

















This last set of board I joined with a biscuit joiner and glue. I make two of them to cut down for the end boards.

This is where it stands at the moment. Waiting on the glue to finish drying. I know there is no "Standard" to KTBH builds so my questions are more along the lines of looking for opinions. 

For those that have built and used KTBH's Is there an optimum top bar length? Is wider better (19") or would you suggest narrower? 

Which method do you like for guides on the top bars? Chamfer molding, thin wood sticks, cut groove filled with wax, Wax and string, etc.

I see some suggest using two different top bar widths (1-1/2", 1-1/4") While others suggest a single width with spacers as needed. Is there a preference or from experience have you found one to work better than another?

Thank you


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

TALittle said:


> I did not plan to start this for some time. However, I told a couple of friends I was going to build some bee hives for my ranch and last Friday one of them called to tell me that her work had a bunch of pallets. She had spoken with the boss and I was free to come grab some to use for free wood.
> 
> I am not one to pass up free anything, lol. So I stopped in and grabbed 7 pallets. As well as some framed plywood that came off shipping crates.
> 
> ...


For my grand children's TBH I went with standard lang bar length of 19". That way I could Place their top bars in my long lang to help build up comb. As for the width I went with 1 3/8 inches. I would advise you keep it simple and pick just one width, the bees may not care but sorting through bars to find the right width in a hurry sounds like a pain to me.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

Nice pictures! 

I'm almost finished building my first KTBH (need to attach the bottom, cut the top bars and construct a roof of some type).

Though there's no standard, I'd either find out what design is most popular in your local beekeeping group, or choose one of the many designs available. Two designs I liked, published in books are Les Crowder's and Wyatt Mangum's. Les's is made from 1x10s is rather wide and shallow (which might be better in hotter climates (less weight of comb)), while Mangum's is based in North Carolina and now Virginia, which is the closest to my location in PA. (Mangum's design is 1x12 for the sides and 1x10s for the bottom. )

I like the idea of 19 inch top bars (total length) as it gives the potential option of some trading with a Lang. I only have power hand tools so most of the guides become difficult, and some of the molding that would be useful for guides is expensive. So I'm planning to go with the waxed string method.

I am attaching my sides to the outside of my end boards which I believe is easier for me rather than the many designs that have the sides butted against the ends. 
There has been a thread fairly recently that went back and forth over the whole (all 1-3/8" vs 1-1/4" plus 1-1/2") debate on top bars. I've decided for myself that I'm going all 1-3/8", but I am going to create some 1/8" and 1/4" spacers (for between bars) I might occasionally use for honey comb. The bars themselves need to be fairly thick so they don't flex much when they hold several pounds of comb and honey.

Oh, and this is my personal opinion, but I don't like entrances in the middle of the sides. My entrances are going to be on the ends, but I think the entrances on the sides but at ends are ok too.


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## TALittle (May 7, 2016)

Im leaning towards 19" over all width of the top bars for the reasons both of you have stated. 

crmauch, I am planning to attach the end boards the way it is shows (butted up to the side boards) but instead of the screws I plan on using the 2.5" hot dipped galvanized plasticoted ring shank nails. I can shoot them with my 21deg framing nailer and I already have them. I bought them to build my cabin out on my ranch and found that once they go in, they don't want to come out. I split a 2x4 trying to pull it apart from another board. lol

Though running through the math/geometry if I did cut the end boards and attached then as you suggested, I could get 4 end boards out of the piece instead of 2. It may be worth trying.

Counting out the boards I should have enough to build 2 full hives and most of a 3rd hive. Provided it stops raining here. lol


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

TALittle said:


> crmauch, I am planning to attach the end boards the way it is shows (butted up to the side boards) but instead of the screws I plan on using the 2.5" hot dipped galvanized plasticoted ring shank nails. I can shoot them with my 21deg framing nailer and I already have them. I bought them to build my cabin out on my ranch and found that once they go in, they don't want to come out. I split a 2x4 trying to pull it apart from another board. lol


Hey, if I had that I might butt the end board up to the side boards. But as I'm using screws and pre-drilling holes and counter sinks, (every screw requires 3 uses of the drill (chuck type drill)). I couldn't imagine trying to hold the sides even with the shape of the end, drill the holes and get the screws in (for each individual board). I built some primitive jigs (from the waste of cutting the ends) that hold the ends upright and space the top side board the correct distance from the top of the hive (the end boards stick up beyond the side when completed to hold the top bars in place). The boards then just lean into the end boards which makes for easy drilling and screwing in of the sides.



TALittle said:


> Though running through the math/geometry if I did cut the end boards and attached then as you suggested, I could get 4 end boards out of the piece instead of 2. It may be worth trying.


I'm not following, but I'll trust your math.



TALittle said:


> Provided it stops raining here. lol


We were like that April through May. Told my kids that we had been secretly moved to Seattle. Being teenagers, they then rolled their eyes.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

For guide, I just took a 1x pine board, cut to length (depends on how much of your bar you want to cover). Take a table saw, angle it at 45 and start stripping the board. What you get are these long pieces with triangular cross section that looks like molding but lot cheaper to make. You just nail them to bars. Worked great too.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

DaisyNJ said:


> For guide, I just took a 1x pine board, cut to length (depends on how much of your bar you want to cover). *Take a table saw*, angle it at 45 and start stripping the board. What you get are these long pieces with triangular cross section that looks like molding but lot cheaper to make. You just nail them to bars. Worked great too.


Yep -- don't got one of those.


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## TALittle (May 7, 2016)

crmauch said:


> Yep -- don't got one of those.


Too bad you are not local to me, I have all of it. Nail guns, table saw, table router, drill press, etc, etc. I would welcome the help and am always up to meeting new people.

Heck, I even have a 5k generator so I can run it all out at my cabin. lol


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

TALittle said:


> Too bad you are not local to me, I have all of it. Nail guns, table saw, table router, drill press, etc, etc. I would welcome the help and am always up to meeting new people.
> 
> Heck, I even have a 5k generator so I can run it all out at my cabin. lol
> 
> ...


Nice!


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

crmauch said:


> Yep -- don't got one of those.


In a pinch I have read where you can use a hot glue gun and pop cycle sticks from a craft store. The bees just need a guide they will do a better job gluing the comb to the bar than you can. I set the table saw at 15 degrees bty.


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## TALittle (May 7, 2016)

Cabin said:


> In a pinch I have read where you can use a hot glue gun and pop cycle sticks from a craft store. The bees just need a guide they will do a better job gluing the comb to the bar than you can. I set the table saw at 15 degrees bty.


15deg? Most of the ones I have seen used a 45deg angle to cut them.


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## MariahK (Dec 28, 2014)

My top bars have popsicle sticks in them work great, haven't have one crooked comb yet in two years.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

TALittle said:


> 15deg? Most of the ones I have seen used a 45deg angle to cut them.


Just my thing. Thought it looked nicer. I am sure the bees do not care either way.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

you do know pallets are soaked in chemicals, all extremely toxic to bees and humans?
check the production stamp b4 use...
just me, but I'd never use pallets for any woodwork or burning
google pallets and poisons


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## TALittle (May 7, 2016)

DavidZ said:


> you do know pallets are soaked in chemicals, all extremely toxic to bees and humans?
> check the production stamp b4 use...
> just me, but I'd never use pallets for any woodwork or burning
> google pallets and poisons


They were heat treated single use pallets. No worries.

Besides, the Methyl Bromide treatment has a half life of 30 min. It has also been phased out on pallets. Under normal fumigation conditions methyl bromide is applied as a gas and when the pallets are properly aerated according to label instructions, virtually no methyl bromide residue remains on the pallets and wood materials.

These pallets set out in the rain for a few weeks. I am comfortable that they are safe.

Personally I am not worried about it. Pallets are not "Soaked in chemicals" they are treated in one of a limited number of ways.

Thought thank you for posting the info.


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## TALittle (May 7, 2016)

Well they are coming together. I have two done (minus the legs) and enough wood to make a third.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

TALittle said:


> Well they are coming together. I have two done (minus the legs) and enough wood to make a third.


What is the thickness of the wood in your picture?

Looking good! :applause:


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## TALittle (May 7, 2016)

crmauch, it's all 1" dimensional so measures about 3/4 of an inch thick.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

TALittle said:


> crmauch, it's all 1" dimensional so measures about 3/4 of an inch thick.


It looked 'thick' so I wasn't sure if it was 1" or 3/4"

I had the meaning of dimensional and nominal confused in my mind, so you taught me something too!


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