# 10 feeding steps/rules for new beeks



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

I've noticed lots of posts by new beekeepers stating that they have feed all spring or summer and now talk about stored syrup in their honey supers. As I'm sure most already know, that is a bad thing if you want to extract and sell, or eat whats in those supers. Having sugar syrup in those honey supers should be avioded at all costs. And here are good feeding rules that work for me.

1. Figure out when the spring flows start in your area. It is earlier in the south and later in the north.

2. One month to 45 days before that flow starts is when you need to feed your bees, this is just after winter, and when the bees need it the most to take advantage of the spring flow and to aviod starvation. As you may already know, bees will use this syrup to feed larva, and raise more bees. The more bees you have, the more nectar the bees will bring in when there is a flow.

3. The goals of feeding in the spring, and feeding in the fall are different. The reason that new beeks end up with syrup bound hives in the spring or summer is because they feed to much syrup in the spring, and continue to feed through out the year. Unless your hive has no foragers, there is no spring or summer flow, or is being used to raise queencells, this is a mistake. In the spring, only feed enough syrup to feed the adult bees, and feed the larva. Do not feed enough syrup for them to store it. Feed 1 part sugar, 2 parts water. A good practice is to know how much stores the hive has. If they have lots of honey going into the spring, only feed them a little at a time, just enough to stimulate the brood rearing. If they have almost no stores going into spring, feed them more agressively, but not enough for them to fill up their space with the syrup. It is a fine line that must be learned over time. Nucs, and package bees may need more feed than an overwintered hive, the extra goal is to get them to draw wax, but you want them to fill that with bees in the spring, not syrup. Some syrup is OK, but not filled by any means. You want them to fill it with honey in the main flow.

4. If there is a nectar flow, take the syrup off, and leave it off until the nectar flow stops. In most areas there is a darth in the early summer. In my area it is usually June 1st - 15th. If the hive has no honey supers on, and lots of empty space in the brood chambers, you can again feed them some syrup. But I only feed enough to keep them from losing weight, and stimulate brood rearing. Do not feed any durring a darth if you have honey supers on.

5. Take all feed off before the main flow. When the main flow hits, you want them to store the honey in the honey supers. But if the brood chambers are lacking a little, its Ok. That will be common amoung most nucs, or packages that were installed in the spring.

6. After taking all the honey supers off after the main flows, and if the hives are light, you can again feed. But this time your goal is to get them ready for winter, so you want heavier syrup, and more of it. Keep in mind that some areas have good fall flows, and this can be left for the bees to fill up their hive. If you don't plan to take any honey from the fall flow, you can keep feeding as long as they will take it. But you do not want them to completely backfill their brood nest, the queen will still need some place to lay. Again that is a fine line, and will take practice and learning. To sum up this rule, you now want them to fill most of their space with syrup if they are light.

7. If you use Thymol, quit feeding until the treatments are done.

8. Lift tests throughout the winter to make sure your bees don't starve is a good idea. If they get to light, and end up on the top bars you can give them bee candy.

9. Keep in mind that honey or syrup is not the only food that bees need. If your hive ends up to light in the fall, or comming out of winter, it is likely that they need pollen as well. If there is no pollen comming in, give them a pollen patty on the top bars. A good rule that I keep to is that if my bees are a 1st year nuc, I give them a pollen patty after the main flow, and again in the early spring.

10. Summer feeding. If you have to much rain, or to little rain in the spring, it can really hurt your spring, and your summer flows. If there is a drought at any time, keep a close eye on your nectar flows. If your spring or summer nectar flows are to slow, or non-extistant, be prepared to feed.


Some beekeepers may take a different approach. And if that works well for them, great, please add it to this. For the new beeks, good luck!


----------



## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

You pretty much covered it all....oh..and usually a sting or two won't kill ya.


----------



## jasontatro (Feb 6, 2008)

IndianaHoney said:


> In most areas there is a darth in the early summer.


Or if you live on the Deathstar.....he is there year round.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

IndianaHoney said:


> 6. Keep in mind that some areas have good fall flows, and this can be left for the bees to fill up their hive. If you don't plan to take any honey from the fall flow, you can keep feeding as long as they will take it. But you do not want them to completely backfill their brood nest, the queen will still need some place to lay. Again that is a fine line, and will take practice and learning. To sum up this rule, you now want them to fill most of their space with syrup if they are light.


Not so fine a line if you would weigh each colony at the end of the fall flow. The scale doesn't lie...as does your back from lifting. Find a target weight, and use it. Mine is 155-160 for 2 3/4 - 3 story colonies. Feed 1 gallon of thick syrup for every 10 pounds your colony is under target weight. Feed early, so the bees can ripen the syrup...first half of October in the north. Feeding late...into November...will result in moisture problems in the hive.


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Not so fine a line if you would weigh each colony at the end of the fall flow. The scale doesn't lie...as does your back from lifting. Find a target weight, and use it. Mine is 155-160 for 2 3/4 - 3 story colonies. Feed 1 gallon of thick syrup for every 10 pounds your colony is under target weight. Feed early, so the bees can ripen the syrup...first half of October in the north. Feeding late...into November...will result in moisture problems in the hive.


Hey MP, do you weigh each hive? Or do just know what the 155-160 pounds should feel like when you try to lift them?


----------



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

he has a scale that he tips the hive onto. It is pretty cool to see.


----------



## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Why stop feeding for the Thymol application?


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Chef Isaac said:


> he has a scale that he tips the hive onto. It is pretty cool to see.


Now that I'd like to see. That would certianly take all the guess work out of it.




Ben

The reason that you stop feeding when treating with Thymol is that the Thymol has to be spread throughout the hive in order to work. This happens when the bees are removing it from the hive. When feeding the bees will sometimes consentrate on the feed and ignore the Thymol, causing it to dry out and become useless.


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

indiana honey writes:
2. One month to 45 days before that flow starts

tecumseh replies: I would suggest 60 days as a better target.

and definitely having some process to determine weight is beneficial in a number of ways. I use one of those digital fish scales which does a quite adequate job and is extremely portable.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

IndianaHoney said:


> Hey MP, do you weigh each hive? Or do just know what the 155-160 pounds should feel like when you try to lift them?


Yeah IH, I weigh every hive. Lifting doesn't work for me. After a couple yards, they all seem heavy. The only ones you can make an intellegent decision about are the hives that are wicked heavy, or wicked light. The borderline hives you can't really tell about. So, I wind up overfeeding...just in case. Well, overfeeding a couple gallons with all the colonies that I have would cost thousands of $$$.

I've been weighing hives since 1982, when I went to work for a NY apple orchard...managing their bees. They had a spring scale with a hive hook attached.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/springscale1.jpg

Worked well, but the process takes two people, and you have to pick the hive up off the ground.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/springscale2.jpg

After 20 years of that, my shoulders were toast. I had to find a better way. Always thinking along the lines of picking the hive up to weigh it. Thought about tripods, mechanical lifters. All too expensive and cumbersome.

While in between sleep and wake one night, I had my eureka moment. Tip the hives to weigh them.

I bought a commercial package scale from the Grainger catalog.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/packagescale1.jpg

And, fit it to my hive stand with a piece of plywood.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/packagescale2.jpg

I also placed a small square of plywood on the scale to spread out the weight and prevent damage to the scale.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/weighinghives1.jpg

My hive stands are 2x4 material. About the same height as my outer covers. I place the outer cover on the ground, at the end of the hive stand. Place the scale and plywood on that. Tip the hive sideways, and slide scale on plywood onto hive stand, and under hive.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/weighinghives2.jpg

Tip the hive up onto the scale and read weight.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/weighinghives3.jpg

Tip hive down, remove scale, and settle hive. Write the wieght on the back of the hive with the rest of the year's records.


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Thanks MP, I'm gonna have to get me one of those. One thing though, my bees would eat me alive if I did that without a suit.


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

tecumseh replies: I would suggest 60 days as a better target.


That would be nice, but our flow starts around April 30th. That would mean that I have to start feeding March 1st, and we just don't have enough warm weather for the bees to break cluster until the beginning of April. I try to feed those who are on the top bars in mid March because the cluster is close enough to the feeder to take it. I afraid that if I put the feed on in early March, it would freeze or chill the cluster.


----------



## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Indiana and others, thanks much for the post. I know it gives me a lot more to consider/plan for next year.....I'm feeding the snot out of my hives right now to build up enough to get through their first winter.

Any suggestions for when I should stop feeding or should I just go until they stop taking it in the fall?


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

IndianaHoney said:


> Thanks MP, I'm gonna have to get me one of those. One thing though, my bees would eat me alive if I did that without a suit.


Well then, get better bees.  Mine for example )


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

JPK1NH said:


> Any suggestions for when I should stop feeding or should I just go until they stop taking it in the fall?


Are you using foundation? Have they drawn it all out? Have they got room for storing the fall flow?

Unless they're drawing foundation, you shouldn't need to feed right now. We're in harves right now. When the supers are taken off, we look at the broodnest. Lift the hive, too. Is it light? Do you see brood in the top box? Or, is it heavy, with the top box full of honey?

If it's heavy, we put a super back on. If it's light, with brood in the top box, we don't put a super on, and allow the colony to have the fall flow. At the end of the fall flow...last half of September/first week of October...we weigh the hives and fed accordingly.

IH is correct about overfeeding...The queen need a place to raise a large cluster of bees for winter. Like these in the beginning of October...

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0010.jpg


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

indianahoney writes:
That would be nice, but our flow starts around April 30th.

tecumseh: I was speaking of what would be optimal (relative to a bee bioliogy) and local conditions and process (means of feeding) would somewhat move an individual away from an optimal pathway.

also feeding early give a cluster enough energy (and heat) to break cluster anywhere the temperature is not constantly below freezing.


----------



## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Are you using foundation? Have they drawn it all out? Have they got room for storing the fall flow?
> 
> Unless they're drawing foundation, you shouldn't need to feed right now. We're in harves right now. When the supers are taken off, we look at the broodnest. Lift the hive, too. Is it light? Do you see brood in the top box? Or, is it heavy, with the top box full of honey?
> 
> ...


2 colonies I'm not worried about....in fact 1 has filled 2 deeps, a medium and is working on a second. The second has filled 2 deeps and is working on a medium.
3rd is a month old hive from a nuc that is doing well and drawing comb on natural foundation.
4 and 5 are newly queened/started nucs that I need to build up so they can make it through the winter....we probably have three brood cycles left in the season if my guess is correct.

I'm planning to feed for the rest of the season to build up all as much as possible and rob from 1 and 2 to give to 4,5 and 3 if necessary to get them through the winter.

If necessary I can pull the 2 nucs inside and put them in a window frame in a room that is not fully heated and hovers around freezing when it gets really cold up here and they will have an exit to the outside....we had an -18F night last winter....below zero is not particularly uncommon.


The plan is to rob some/all of the mediums from 1 and 2 to distribute to 4,5 and 3 if necessary. That way I can hopefully go into spring with all 5 intact.

Sound reasonable?


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

You have about three brood cycles left yes. But if some of these nucs are just started, you may be hard pressed to get them built up to two full deeps before winter, unless they are already really strong nucs. As for if that is reasonable or not, I'd ask someone in your area. But if you can't ask someone, just keep feeding and giving them building space until they are strong enough to get through winter. Remember that it is not just honey, they need pollen and bees to make it through winter. If these nucs still don't have enough bees by the end if Sept, combine them with another hive, or be prepared to overwinter as a nuc. Overwintering in that room with access to the outside is not a bad plan. But you may need to open them in order to give them candy. Just putting them in that room will not get them through the winter, you will still have to feed, with candy being the best option for that time of year. Also a nuc that is made after June with a newly mated queen will need to be given pollen. The turn of days is June 21st, any queen that is mated after that will not slow down much in the fall, and that hive will burn up lots of pollen in raising brood. And a nuc that was made late in the year (July or August), will not be able to collect enough pollen to keep up with that queen, and store enough for winter. So make sure you give them pollen as well.


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

tecumseh said:


> also feeding early give a cluster enough energy (and heat) to break cluster anywhere the temperature is not constantly below freezing.


Tecumseh, do you feed two water one sugar during that time? Or something thicker to give them more energy? I'd think thicker if the temps are so low that they can't cure it.


----------



## JPK (May 24, 2008)

IndianaHoney said:


> You have about three brood cycles left yes. But if some of these nucs are just started, you may be hard pressed to get them built up to two full deeps before winter, unless they are already really strong nucs. As for if that is reasonable or not, I'd ask someone in your area. But if you can't ask someone, just keep feeding and giving them building space until they are strong enough to get through winter. Remember that it is not just honey, they need pollen and bees to make it through winter. If these nucs still don't have enough bees by the end if Sept, combine them with another hive, or be prepared to overwinter as a nuc. Overwintering in that room with access to the outside is not a bad plan. But you may need to open them in order to give them candy. Just putting them in that room will not get them through the winter, you will still have to feed, with candy being the best option for that time of year. Also a nuc that is made after June with a newly mated queen will need to be given pollen. The turn of days is June 21st, any queen that is mated after that will not slow down much in the fall, and that hive will burn up lots of pollen in raising brood. And a nuc that was made late in the year (July or August), will not be able to collect enough pollen to keep up with that queen, and store enough for winter. So make sure you give them pollen as well.


I put a pollen patty in there when I queened them so I have fingers crossed.

How many bees do I need in the nuc for them to get through the winter and when you say (Candy) what are you referring to?


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

They may still need more pollen than that. You might consider giving them another pollen patty in the spring, or put a pollen patty on top of the frames before winter.

A nuc should be packed with bees, otherwise they may not be able to keep themselves warm. Even with them packed with bees, you still may need to provide some warmth for them. Some people use a heat pad designed for a terrainium.

The candy that I'm talking about is sugar candy. Its made by mixing lots of sugar with a little bit of water, then heating it up. When it cools, it hardens into a solid mass. You should be able to find a recipe for it on the internet. Just do a search for bee candy. They won't take it unless they run out of honey, and a nuc will run out of honey.


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

indiana honey writes:
do you feed two water one sugar during that time?

tecumseh replies: I almost never feed 2:1. curing nectar is not so much a problem here (1:1 doesn't have the potential in creating the kinds of problems you might encounter) and I really want the girls to consume the content of the feeder and not so much store it away (which they will do somewhat anyway). 

I find the location of the feeder relative to the cluster is absolutely important in terms of the syrups uptake and activity of the hive. in fairly cold weather (it doesn't ever get that cold for that long here) the activity level of a hive with a top feeder just above the cluster vs a similar hive with a frame feeder (most typically shoved over to one side of the box) is quite apparent.


----------



## timgoodin (Mar 10, 2007)

*SHB and pollen patties*

Last year I fed patties late summer and had a problem with small hive beetle. This year I stopped feeding pollen mid April, put them in direct sun and have tried to keep nucs strong or combine with another weak nuc. So far it seems to be working. Essentially SHB free (saw a couple but the bees had them on the run). I plan to feed some more pollen this fall/winter if/when the pollen stops coming in. I'm curious how other's handle SHB and feed patties in hot weather?

Tim


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Feed the patties in the fall when the weather cools down but is not so cold that they cluster, around here that would be Oct.


----------



## beehoppers (Jun 16, 2005)

There are other schools of thought. 
Keep Russians. Make sure they fill the top 2 boxes in the fall. Pile on dry sugar in December. Checkerboard. Feed a gallon with Fumagellon B in the Spring. No more feeding necessary unless a bad dearth.


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Beehopper, I agree there are other schools of thought, and many ways to do things. Although I have some Russians, I like to stay away from them. For some reason not many of them are ready to produce until around the end of the summer flow. I personally don't like that. I've tried Russian, Buckfast, Italian, and Carnie. I have some VSH that I just requeened with this summer, so I won't know how well they will produce until next year. The Italians produce lots of honey, but can't seem to survive our winters. The Russians may be able to survive, but just don't seem to produce. The Buckfast produce well, but are mean and don't survive as well as others. My Carnies have done the best so far. When I first tried them, I didn't think I would like them because of the tendancy towards swarming. But so far they have out performed everything else in honey production, spring build up, and they seem to survive the winter just as well as Russians. We'll see what happens with the VSH queens, but I've seen the stock they came from, and was very impressed.


----------



## beehoppers (Jun 16, 2005)

I really only have experience with Russians. Over the 3 years we have had them, hives that overwinter have averaged 9 gallons, over 100lbs each.


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Wow! Maybe I should give them another chance.


----------

