# DWV, robbing...requeen?



## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

I don't want to be a bother, seems I'm posting too often.
The facts:
I've had my hive a week. I transferred them from the 10 bar medium I got them with last wednesday. They were a three week old colony originating from an unknown swarm. the box had drawn comb from unknown origins, the bees were transferred into one medium and one deep 8 frame box and the new frames are foundationless. Thursday I noticed crawling bees, Friday I started collecting them and looking closely. The bees are fifty fifty drones and workers with deformed or small wings. I've noted many of the dead early on were hollow. I also noticed some white pupae near the hive, also hollow. (Speculation, could have been ants or parasitic fly. Don't know.) Still collecting the dead and observing, though crawlers have lapsed now and there are fewer each day. Yesterday I noticed way too many bees outside the hive trying to get in, I also observed bees crawling around the small separations between the hive boxes trying to get in. I figured it was robbing and made a little robbing screen on a new reducer with an inch wide entrance.

These are my questions
1.) If I have robbing, does it mean I have a queenless hive, small and young colony or just a weak one?
2.) Is the hive doomed if it is expressing signs of DWV.
3.) Would requeening be a good idea, say, using a vhs queen from local apiary?
4.) When I inspect tomorrow, what can I do to help the hive? Cull drone brood? Split for a brood break?
5.) Since putting up my robbing screen yesterday afternoon I have noticed quite a few bees with pollen not being able to get into the hive. I doubt they are robbers, will all my bees be able to figure it out eventually?
6.) How long do I leave the robbing screen in place?
7.) If the colony is going down, should I just euthanize them to prevent detriment to other feral colonies nearby?

I am sure some of the answers may be contingent upon my findings tomorrow.
I plan on getting a split from one of the big TF guys near me...I just need to bribe and them.

Also, I really don't want to be attacked for TF constantly, it's obviously a management technique others nearby practice with success, even through two years of drought and on a commercial scale...(well, does 100 and 300 hives qualify as commercial? They sell their honey and products) and I see it as a definite possibility to be TF in my locale. Should I just confine myself to the TF forum and isolate from the fervent beekeepers who treat? It's like the combination of TF and being a beginner makes other beekeepers despise me and personally attack me. I seriously don't need to experience any more conflict, it's so offputting. I want to learn about beekeeping, but some people seem to ignore the fact that there are many successful people in both courts and resort to condemning each other.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I'm betting perhaps you saw an orientation flight, not robbing. You are correct, bees w/ pollen are not robbers.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

1.) If I have robbing, does it mean I have a queenless hive, small and young colony or just a weak one?
I think all of the above as well as perhaps other reasons that can cause robbing.

2.) Is the hive doomed if it is expressing signs of DWV.
Maybe, maybe not. There are some times that a hive with DWV does not die out 
if not treated. Not very often, but sometimes.

3.) Would requeening be a good idea, say, using a vhs queen from local apiary?
Maybe. Let me ask you... Do you think it's a good idea to introduce a 
healthy purchased queen into a hive with rampant viral infections going on?

4.) When I inspect tomorrow, what can I do to help the hive? Cull drone brood? Split for a brood break?
Don't go in with any preconceived game plan, 
let what you see determine further action.

5.) Since putting up my robbing screen yesterday afternoon I have noticed quite a few bees with pollen not being able to get into the hive. I doubt they are robbers, will all my bees be able to figure it out eventually?
Mostly, but there may be some that don't.

6.) How long do I leave the robbing screen in place?
For as long as you see that they are helping.

7.) If the colony is going down, should I just euthanize them to prevent detriment to other feral colonies nearby?
That is something only you can decide.

Should I just confine myself to the TF forum and isolate from the fervent beekeepers who treat?
I myself do not think so. There are also fervent beekeepers who do not treat eh?
Discussion and differing points of view is what forums are for. 

It's like the combination of TF and being a beginner makes other beekeepers despise me and personally attack me.
Perhaps you should not take it so personally. Call it discussion and advice,
 whether asked for or expected or surprised by responses or not. We are all
different people with different experiences and expectations. 

I seriously don't need to experience any more conflict, it's so offputting.
Try to take a more scientific or detached outlook and approach instead 
of making it all idealistic and personal.

I want to learn about beekeeping, but some people seem to ignore the fact that there are many successful people in both courts and resort to condemning each other. 
Yes, that's human nature sometimes huh? 

I will now make a suggestion, take it how you will...
Get a copy of first lessons in beekeeping and read it. Then if you want more, get a copy of The Hive and The Honey Bee by L. L. Langstroth. It's a large tome, but well worth the read. Try to understand the sociology and biology of a beehive as a super organism. Concentrate on learning that as you start off along your path in beekeeping. I think that will help you out tremendously along your way of beekeeping. Don't be so focused on just TF or NonTF regimes. Learn what makes a beehive tick. Learn what makes a Drone, or Queen, or Forager, or Nurse bee or House bee tick. All the parts of a hive make a whole super organism. Learn why it is called that.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Good responses Ray, only you could've put it that way. I probably would've been too blunt and even more offputting even though I don't mean to be that way. You know I'd be the first one down to help inspect the hive if I could....


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes JRG13, you are top notch for helping out anyone you can in beekeeping. I know that you never attacked diymom in a personal vendetta kind of way, you are only trying to help with discussion the best way that you can. I know this because I know you, we have met and talked and helped each other out many times. Everyone has their own way of trying to give information and advice when asked. Perhaps everyone can move more to discussion without so much emotion involved. These bees are bugs, they live and they die with and without our interference in their colonies. We keep them because it gives us pleasure in one way or another, and for some, it's the income and bread on the table. We all have different experiences and training and sometimes we just have a hard time relaying what we mean when trying to help out.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

What I don't get about the various descriptions of this new hive is the season .... I live 200 miles north (north of Pt. Conception), we have a slightly more pronounced winter. My Treatment Free hives don't start expressing DWV until June or July. 

At this season, the end of April, in my locality, one is hard pressed to find a Varroa in any hive (TF or not). The mite population just doesn't build until later.

Would love to know if the LA basin has an overwintering population of Varroa, in a fashion that my area is free of.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Diymom, the bees working at the seams between the boxes is not robbing. They are adding propolis to seal the seam. You don't describe the kind of fighting that I have seen with robbing. I would take off the robbing screen. I would also encourage you to relax a little. There is a limit to what you can do here, and there can be some unintended consequences if you intervene too much at this stage in the hives progress and at this stage in your beekeeping. You are climbing a learning curve that you will only get to climb once. Enjoy the ride. 

Don't isolate yourself in a single thread area, and don't sweat the posts. It's like middle school. You may be able to remember the angst that people had over what other people thought. And you probably wouldn't recognize most of the folks today if you passed them walking in a store. There are some thoughtless bullies in both camps, but there are many more thoughtful, and helpful folks as well in both, and most of the folks on here who treat and who don't treat would paddle a jonboat to get your family out of a flood. We just don't see eye to eye right now. If the Lord tarries, the bees will probably work it out for us and we'll have to find something else to disagree about in a decade. At least we will still be able to argue about when to feed.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

diymom said:


> I don't want to be a bother, seems I'm posting too often.




If you do not share your questions, that means I can not learn from your mistakes, & I have to make the same mistakes for myself.
The forum needs your questions & experiences.


Beyond that comment, as you consider my comments also consider the source, a relative new guy, from across the continent.

the other responses were good, but I would like to ad ...



1.) If I have robbing, does it mean I have a queenless hive, small 
and young colony or just a weak one?

If you have robbing, it means there is a more aggressive colony in flying range that thinks it can take their resources.
The robbing screen is a good move, If it appears to have started, I also duck tape the cracks.
I _try_ to keep a robbing screen on all my hives all the time. But there are a few that are "bare". I will kick myself if they get robbed.
The best time to install robber screens is at nigh, when all the bees are indoors, before the robbing starts.
If I miss the "before it starts" part, I just do the best I can. If you still have bees trying to get home, 
you may remove the screen for a bit late in the evening, then put it back on after they are all indoors.
Obviously this assumes no bearding. If you have a small colony with a screened bottom board, you may want to cover the sbb.
Some one mentioned the house bees would be trying to guard the screen instead of just the entrance.
If robbing is occurring,& does not get under control, the hive _is_ doomed. 
My sure fire cure is to move the victim hive "away". not every one has this option, so across the yard maybe?
Since my robbers were in a box in my yard, I (finally) solved the problem by moving the robbers.


2.) Is the hive doomed if it is expressing signs of DWV.

Hmmm. If you give up, the hive is doomed.
If you don't give up, maybe, maybe not. How much effort do you want to put into this colony?
( I am told nucs are $175 ish, packages are $150 -ish. wow, prices went up!)
How much can you learn from these bees?


3.) Would requeening 
be a good idea, say, using a vhs queen from local apiary?

Well it would probably help your hive, but as mentioned, it might be fatal to the new Q.


4.) When I inspect tomorrow, what can I do to help the 
hive? Cull drone brood? Split for a brood break?

Well they are pretty new from swarming .. how much brood do they have?
I would probably pull larva from drone cells & inspect for mites.
Have you checked for mites? sugar shake or Alcohol bath depending on your beliefs.
mite drop to sticky board under sbb?
Its kind of negative to suggest this from far away, & having seen nothing in person ( but I have lost a few hives)
Are there a lot of dead bees on the bottom board? If so get a bunch of them & check them under a magnifying glass.
Are there enough bees to make a viable split? Are eggs or very young brood present?
Do you want 2 colonies? if yes to all, then make the split. 
Have robbing screens in place on the split as well as the old hive. That still may not be enough.


5.) Since putting up my robbing screen yesterday afternoon I have 
noticed quite a few bees with pollen not being able to get into the hive. I doubt they are robbers, will all my 
bees be able to figure it out eventually?

I would remove the screens for a bit late in the evening, the resident bees will crawl in, then replace the screens after dark & leave them on.


6.) How long do I leave the robbing screen in place?

Robbing screens are a permanent part of most of my hives


7.) If the colony 
is going down, should I just euthanize them to prevent detriment to other feral colonies nearby?

If the local ferals could not deal with this they will have self selected / culled themselves already.
The local "domestic bees" might suffer. How close is the closest domestic apiary?
If you are being robbed, they are coming from some where. 
By the way, did you observe bees fighting on the landing board? or near the entrance? 
if not, either you are not being robbed , or it is too late. the crawlers looking for cracks is also a pretty clear indication, 
but the fighting is more of a sure sign. ( in my opinion)



If you are _not_ being robbed, & if you still have a high number of dfw bees, I wonder what would happen if you shook them all out...
The DFW's would not make it back to the hive, but the nurse bees probably wouldn't either ... 
If you are desperate, on the verge of euthanization, what do you have to lose? what do you have to learn?
Perhaps more experienced beekeepers have tried this?( I have not) ( comments?)

Just my thoughts. Good luck with your bees ... CE


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Thanks for the reassuring feedback, I think I was extremely irritated when I posted my questions after having been called arrogant in another thread. I do need to detach and relax a bit...I'm a little high strung naturally and have two little boys so my nerves are often thin...it's good to have a gentle reminder to step back from time to time.
Sometimes I wish I could just talk to a beekeeper, the beekeepers I've met seem leery of newbies, are really senile, or can't show me their hives because of liability insurance. 

I just finished my inspection an hour before sundown...

Here is how it stands...
No new comb, shotty brood pattern, almost no capped brood, no larvae, no eggs- looking queenless, three wormy non bee larvae and their frass on the bottom board, 15 varroa counted on 15x11 grid bottom board which wasn't oiled. No hive beetles, lots of nectar where there was once brood and some capped honey.
Oh and I got stung! I'm still alive! I haven't been stung since I was 14 so I was a little worried about it. It was my fault, I didn't cover my ankle and when I squatted, I squished a poor bee, the other one my glove pinned down and it reacted appropriately to the rudeness. Like the goat skin gloves for protection but not for handling frames. The rest of the colony is so mellow and gentle, shame the genetics are gone now.

Ray M, you said it, opening the hive and looking inside really determines what you do. You also have good perspective and communication skills. Thank you for answering my questions.

I don't think I had a queen when I got the hive, it had no eggs and only 10 to 15 uncapped brood on one side of a comb. The rest of the frames had lots of capped brood of which only little remains. I have no idea what happened to the queen. I haven't seen many crawlers, just some dead drones outside the hive that got dumped there.



Now I Need to contact some local TF beeks for a brood frame or a capped queen cell...if nobody can accommodate, then I need to order one from that place in San Diego...wildflower meadows? Since I now need a queen, I kind of have to get one even if the colony isn't in the best health. Should I do a soft treatment on a road to TF to prepare the hive for her? I don't know how to go about this... I am unprepared for this level of dysfunction.
Wish my hive was in better shape.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I can not advise you on any soft treatments, but it's sounding like you need a mated queen ASAP. The bees you have will be dying off from old age, so get a queen. Having them raise a cell to a laying queen takes too long in this case. That's my impression at least from here.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Here's what might have happened, you got a bunch of bees without the queen. There was brood. As time went on, brood matured, but there was no increase of new egg laying to offset the fact that as brood emerged, mites came out and no new brood to infest. That makes the mite populations increase as a percentage of bees in the hive. This bunch of bees may have carried mites on them through the winter, and without a queen increasing the amount of laying each day as they tend to do this time of year, the mites got the upper hand and virus' started increasing in a dwindling population hive. This is what happens with any broodless period. To quickly correct the problem, you need a queen ASAP. Some sort of treatment may be advised, but you have to decide that. It may be that with a fresh queen laying, and increasing laying each day, that she can outrun the mites for now, up until summer solstice.

I have done TF for many years, lost too many hives for my liking, started soft treatments, some of them worked better than others. There are many many options for soft or hard treatments and I'm not exactly sure which are which sometimes. I'm sure you've done some reading and had conversations with others so that you may have something in mind. What I'm trying to express in my fumbling way is get a queen asap, and doing some sort of treatment however hard or soft may be quite beneficial, but, it may be that you can build up without any treatment. You have to make that call from what you see there. i'm too far away to see what you see in that hive.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Ordering queen and possibly going to pick her up asap. I was considering having them raise a queen or putting in a queen cell...seems like time is of the essence here.

I wonder why the queen wasn't in there. I looked for her when I made the transfer, but she wasn't anywhere to be seen. Of course, I am new to looking for queens. This is what I attributed my inability to find her.

Ray, that scenario sounds plausible, hopefully I can turn. This around.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Ugh, wildflower meadows is sold out. Any other sources for TF queens?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I can't say they are treatment free, but Koehnen's in Glenn County, CA, has VSH cordovan queens, or Carni crosses. Do a google search if interested.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

diymom said:


> Ugh, wildflower meadows is sold out. Any other sources for TF queens?


Getting my 5 queens June 2nd....  Try Wootens. I don't have any off my untreated Bill Carpenter queens yet... if I did I'd send one your way....


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

I'm with Ray and JRG13, get a queen as quickly as you can. I've had success with Wootens treatment free. You will want to have two hives as soon as practical because of situations like this. Local club. Learning curve. I'm sure several of us wish we could help.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Yes, I agree about having two. I have another hive body and frames awaiting another colony, I just need to get more bees. 
Looks like I may not be able to get a queen until this weekend (maybe-apparently my club may have ordered wildflower meadows queens this weekend but they may not have enough or it could be false info) or next Tuesday from wootens...but I can get a feral swarm via a bee remover in the next few days and combine if nothing else works out.
Hopefully today I can find out about a queen through my club, if they don't have any, I will combine a swarm and order one from wildflower meadows to requeen with in a month or so. Is that plausible?


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

diymom said:


> Hopefully today I can find out about a queen through my club, if they don't have any, I will combine a swarm and order one from wildflower meadows to requeen with in a month or so. Is that plausible?


Definitely. You may decide that you like the queen in the swarm. This time of year where you are the swarm will likely be a secondary swarm with a young, open mated queen.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Now, if combining a swarm with my queenless hive...if I do the newspaper method, do I put the swarm above or do I put it below? Could I just shake them in? I heard swarms may be aggravated by contact with other bees, but that a queenless hive may be welcoming. I have the full medium and the almost empty deep under it. Logistically, how do I combine? I just don't want to trap a swarm for potentially two days. I also need to check my weather forecast. I'm also pretty sure there will be enough stores for them to feed from, but am worried about my bees backfilling all the comb with nectar. Won't the bees make new comb though?

I may like the queen, but if I order a queen, I will do a nuc or requeen my other hive which will probably be colonised, then I will have some nice genes to build from that have a proven history.
I want to put a swarm trap on my roof to see if I get anything in my neighborhood.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

diymom said:


> Now, if combining a swarm with my queenless hive...if I do the newspaper method, do I put the swarm above or do I put it below?


I would put the queenless colony above the swarm over two sheets of newspaper with a couple of small slits in the paper.



> Could I just shake them in?


You can spray both sets with a moderate amount of air freshener or lite sugar syrup strongly scented with peppermint and combine them. 



> I heard swarms may be aggravated by contact with other bees, but that a queenless hive may be welcoming. I have the full medium and the almost empty deep under it. Logistically, how do I combine? I just don't want to trap a swarm for potentially two days. I also need to check my weather forecast. I'm also pretty sure there will be enough stores for them to feed from, but am worried about my bees backfilling all the comb with nectar. Won't the bees make new comb though?


Take a few deep breaths, don't dwell on everything that could go wrong, pick a reasonable course of action, take it, assess the outcome, and share your experiences with others later. They're bugs.



> I want to put a swarm trap on my roof to see if I get anything in my neighborhood.


I would place the trap in the shade. Lots of sunshine is good for controlling hive beetles, but the bees haven't quite figured that out yet when they pick hive locations. They don't have good bandwidth and don't read Beesource.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Ok, I got a call from a bee remover at 7am, he had a swarm from the day before in a box for me. I got my kids fed, dressed and headed over, two road work detours later I got the box of bees. They were all looking up at me, very unusual experience being looked at by hundreds of eyes.
I got them home, put newspaper above the other hive boxes and drizzled some honey and poked some holes in it. I sprayed the swarm and then shook it into the upper medium I placed above the newspaper and put the brushy mountain top cover with that inch wide exit under the top cover. I hope the swarm seeks out the honey stores and that they all figure out how to get inside. 
I couldn't get all the bee's out of the box and noticed several little clusters of bees half an hour later near the hive and on the outside. I hope things work out. I will check them Saturday.
The weather is pretty overcast and is 73 degrees. I will monitor the temps and sun the next several days. I may need to put up a shade to prevent overheating.
Hope this works out.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

7 am I got a call from the swarm removal guy
9am I picked up the swarm in a nice box
10am I installed the swarm over newspaper above the queenless colony.
Checked every hour or so, things calmed down, everyone was happy, the swarm was using a top exit.
Maybe that was my mistake-I just wanted the stragglers to be able to get back to their queen.

About 45 minutes ago I glanced outside toward the hive...war of the worlds. 
I think my new swarm figured out they could go downstairs and rob.
I had removed the robbing screen when I did my install of the swarm.

I saw bees duking it out on the ground, the landing board and flying off fighting in groups, it was nuts.
I hope by putting the robbing screen back on, everything will be ok.
It's been half an hour since I replaced it and it's much calmer

Should I not have an entrance for the swarm?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

diymom said:


> Should I not have an entrance for the swarm?


correct, you should not have had an entrance for the swarm. the idea is to force them to mingle gradually as their scents meld through the newspaper.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Dang it, well it's closed now. There was still activity a half hour after dark for both groups of bees...it was pretty surprising. Maybe they are anticipating rain.
I was pretty worried about them not having had any food or water for a day or two, and I do like leaving stragglers behind...so I left them an entrance. 
now I've learned something.
Hope this works out.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I always leave an upper entrance open on a newspaper combine. 

I never combine a fresh swarm. When I have tried to do this I get complete mayhem. 

My recommendation is to let a swarm settle and start to raise brood, then and only then combine.

Most (>75%) of feral southern California bees are AHB. AHB usurp hives, and are genetically programmed to fight and defend boxes from interlopers.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

This would have been helpful....earlier today. So with a queenless hive, do I let it sit while the other is drawing comb, raising brood etc for a week an a half and then combine? I might still have a shot at a queen, I can check. Hopefully they won't eat through by the morning.
Why didn't anyone else mention this? Has anyone combined a new swarm with a queenless hive successfully? I need to know so I can do damage control in the morning. I have a second hive body so I could separate them again...
With usurpation, will the new swarm with its queen kill all other bees? Will my bees kill their queen? Feels like chess or British history...


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

diymom...
Take a deep breath and relax. You have done the best that can be done with the situation you had and the resources available to you.The bees will work it out. Let them stay the way they are for a week. They will already have eaten through most of the newspaper by morning. Don't stress, just let them work it out, it's usually fine. If they are still not right in a week, you can do something then. Take a week off and enjoy mother's day weekend.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good post ray. 

nc, congratulations on being a better beekeeper today than you were yesterday. there are as many or more lessons to be learned by 'doing' than any other way. my advice if you want to fast track is to do your best to make 10 year's worth of mistakes in the first year, at least that's what i did. 

a huge turning point for me in terms of enjoyment with the pursuit was when i learned embrace the mistakes and view them as advances up the learning curve. so don't forget to pat yourself for this and any future mishaps. find comfort in those experiences whereby you've learned another thing not to do.

diy is actually a pretty good trait when it comes to beekeeping. i sensed by your first posts that you have what it takes. thanks for sharing your adventure with us.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

It's raining gently, I woke up thinking of bees. 
I really appreciate the kind words, they do wonders dispelling fears and frustrations. Looking at mistakes or negatives as learning experiences and thus constructive experiences is weirdly just the shift in perception and positivity that I've been working on practicing in every avenue of my life. It's really funny to hear it reiterated here.

I hope the bees figure something out that results in a queen laying eggs and nurses raising them.
I am going to leave them be for a while, per the advice, I thought I needed to remove some of the paper and reduce the space after three or four days to make it manageable for them.
I am looking forward to my third mother's day as a mother.
Thank you all so much for all your help here, it's such a fast learning curve and I couldn't have done it without your advice or encouragement. 
Wish I could send you all some home made baked goods...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Attempting to combine a new swarm will go wrong almost every time.

Best to hive the swarm and let it settle for a couple weeks or until it has capped brood, it may then be combined.

A queenless colony may be combined by moving it to the swarm and putting it on top. No sprays or chemicals. After 3 weeks the bees should be properly merged and combs can be reorganised how you want.

Why did nobody tell you this earlier? Don't know about others but for me I found the rant in the opening post rather intimidating (i treat if they need it) and did not read further, but today not much on so came back and read the whole thread anyway.

A person can benefit from advice given by beekeepers who treat, and beekeepers who don't, because most of the knowledge a new person needs is not about treating or not it's just about bee lore. Do not be afraid to take advice on some matters anyway, from people who treat.

"I just don't want to trap a swarm for potentially two days". Ha Ha I got a giggle from that statement, If / when a swarm is available _that_ is when you take it. For all things beekeeping we have to work on the bees timetable not our own.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Yes, I would like to hear about beekeeping from everyone who has experience, I read lots of the other threads...even if they are 12 pages long, I don't just seek out TF beekeepers advice. however, I have found that my questions wander and then I get attacked for contemplating/attempting TF when it comes up. I had someone refuse to mentor me when I asked because I was clearly nuts for wanting feral bees and desiring Tf. She said she didn't want to help kill bees.
I was ridiculed three times within the first two weeks I was starting to seek people out and discuss beekeeping and I found it off putting. It's probably the club I joined. They seem pretty rigid about their methodology and what they allow to be taught to new beeks. I quickly figured out that beekeeping is like politics and there are definite sides. This is why I extended my search for answers online and to other clubs and looked for beekeepers at farmer's markets. 
I've read lots of your posts, oldtimer, you have lots of good information.

Anyway, I didn't want to set out a swarm trap until I had time to set one up...that's all I meant about that. I have two little (apparently always hungry with tons of energy) boys, 1 and 3 years old...they take up almost all my time.

Today I learned what I had not been able to research previously....that combining a swarm and a queenless hive...doesn't work. I feel really irresponsible and stupid-though I acted on the information I had in the short timeframe I had...
I am pretty sure the swarm swarmed...now I am responsible for that swarm, and I hope to God, nobody calls an exterminator on them. I put out the old 10 frame hive that I got my bees in which smells of honey, I put a q tip with lemongrass essential oil on it inside.
I am still queenless and probably angered my bees greatly. 
I made lots of mistakes and am feeling about a half inch tall and a little sick to my stomach. I wish I had a better understanding of swarms and bee culture before I screwed up a great opportunity. It does make me feel better that the old beek I know told me the feral swarms here are fickle and often abscond from even the nicest hive bodies.
I have to get a queen! I am actively pursuing one.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

diymom said:


> I made lots of mistakes and am feeling about a half inch tall and a little sick to my stomach.


Ha ha don't be so hard on yourself, it is a rare person who gets into beekeeping and all goes smoothly (although it does happen). I've been doing this a while now and even over this last season I can think of a number of screw ups I made, some of which damaged the hives, some of which I got lucky and they worked out. End of day bees are insects and while we do the best we know how for them, end of day if it all goes wrong they are very replaceable, they are not as endangered as the general public has been led to believe.

Since you know that swarm collecting guy, your best shot is to tell him you need another swarm, and once you get one set it up and let it establish to the stage of having capped brood. Mean time, you will need to see your queenless bees as expendable, unpalatable as that is, your best shot is getting a queenright hive or swarm going, and once all is safe with it, if there are still any bees in the queenless hive combine them, but the primary goal is the establishment and survival of the queenright hive, and the queenless hive has to come second to that.

Re the treat / don't treat debate, there are some bees that just will not survive varroa mites unless they are treated. However if there are treatment free beekeepers in your area and they are successful, if you do the same thing as them, with the same bees as them, you should in theory have an equal chance of succeeding. Just, could pay to check with them what their survival rates are. Some of them may lose 1/2 their hives each season, and make new hives up to maintain numbers. You need to know that type of thing, because if you are doing this with one or two hives, you will need to be aware what management practises are needed to give yourself the best shot at having at least some hives survive each year.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Bees are bugs that live five weeks (in the summer). The only way a hive keeps going is the queen laying and nurse bees raising. Sometimes it's better not to try to save a hive but to leave it alone to die out or make it on it's own. Get more hives going, I'm sure you'll get a good one established fairly soon this spring. Try not to get too attached to the bugs. They been living on their own a lot longer than we have been a civilized species.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

I'm giving these guys one last shot, I think it's all they have time for. They are probably on their last emerging brood cells and someone in there is probably going to be laying. I think they have been queenless for two weeks, maybe three max.
I have a queen coming. I pick her up tomorrow morning, and she is supposed to be from wildflower meadows, TF stock... I lucked out that some people canceled their orders for queens.
I am going to introduce her between the most populated brood frames so the last babies can emerge and be her compatriots. I have been trying to figure out the best ways to do this and it sounds like it's a crap shoot...it could work, could fail. I will leave her in the cage three days and then release her... I heard if you spray her and the surrounding bees with vanilla and sugar water mix, they will be preoccupied with grooming for a bit. I don't know, I have a few days to look into it.
I hope this works and that I can settle another swarm soon, maybe even a third hive (don't tell my husband) I told him having a few nucs would be a good thing...
I've never had this much trouble with rearing any of my other insect species...i mean lepidoptera species are cake...unless you raise caterpillars with poisonous hairs that sting...but they are still fairly simple.... Bees are definitely more work.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

How do you know your swarm swarmed? Actually if it did it would be an abscond. 
Are you sure it did?
Are you sure there is no queen in your hive now?
And you've ordered a queen that is going to arrive later this morning, What if you have a queen in that box of bees now from the swarm combine? So you had some fighting, so what? The queen from the swarm may still be in there, with more bees there than what you started with before adding the swarm. Have you looked? It seems to me that you've been jumping to conclusions and taking action without being sure of what you have to take action about. I thought you were going to let them sit for awhile and enjoy Mother's Day? I hope this all works out well for you, but I'm having my doubts at this point.

check out this video for how to check for queen acceptance before introducing a queen...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX3BgnOkozs

Good luck with your adventure.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

I saw the swarm, it was thousands of bees filling the air and the side of the box before getting airborne and making a cluster in my neighbors orange tree, it took less than an hour and happened about an hour after the sun came out. The new bees wouldn't have left without their queen, right? They wouldn't have made a cluster around something other than a queen right? I watched it all happen and the upper box where the swarm was is empty, I looked down through the frames and there aren't any extra bees. My bees are carrying on as they were before. I will check them to make sure before I leave that they are queenless...I just don't think I am good at spotting queens yet.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

diymom said:


> I just don't think I am good at spotting queens yet.


yeah, they swarmed alright. about the only consistent way to keep a caught swarm from leaving is if you give them a frame of brood (if you have one) from another hive. as the others have mentioned it's better not to disturb a caught swarm for awhile to let them get 'established'.

on spotting the queens, that's something that certainly gets easier with experience. i finally learned how to not focus real hard on the frame and kinda of let my gaze wander, the queen then kind of catches one's attention sort of like with 'where's waldo'. (this thanks to a beesource contributor's suggestion, forgot who)


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

diymom said:


> I saw the swarm, it was thousands of bees filling the air and the side of the box before getting airborne and making a cluster in my neighbors orange tree, it took less than an hour and happened about an hour after the sun came out. The new bees wouldn't have left without their queen, right? They wouldn't have made a cluster around something other than a queen right? I watched it all happen and the upper box where the swarm was is empty, I looked down through the frames and there aren't any extra bees. My bees are carrying on as they were before. I will check them to make sure before I leave that they are queenless...I just don't think I am good at spotting queens yet.


OK, I'm sorry for the mini outburst, I did not read where you actually saw the swarm leave. All I saw was that you said "I am pretty sure the swarm swarmed"... and that could mean just conjecture and just did not sound very convincing to me. Hope you're new queen introduces easily.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

I went out and disturbed my poor bees this morning, attempting to verify that the swarm did leave and that they were queenless...and then I found something that I think may have been a supersedure cell, it was hidden and had recently been chewed open... I remember seeing lots of drone cells in those areas and think it could have been a drone cell added onto the old comb, but I have no experience to know for sure. I think it was really small for a queen cell but was tucked away in a lower frame corner. Maybe they did make a queen after all. They were four to five days queenless judging from the time I transferred them two Tuesdays ago...there were just a few larvae in the 3-4th in star that I did see back then. So I counted down the days that the queen last laid and came up with today being the 15th-16th day...queen hatch day if that's what I saw. I scraped the thing off the bottom of the frame and saved it.

I was really at a loss as to what to do. If they have a queen...We have had inclement weather, so maybe the virgin queen won't get mated well, maybe she will die enough route...and in the best case it takes her two more weeks to begin laying. But right now I have a great opportunity to pick up an excellent TF queen and possibly have her begin laying much sooner. I am almost out of brood, so I came up with potentially a stupid idea. I feel so out of my league. But I didn't have the time to figure out anything better.
The bees in my hive were on an original 10 frames of drawn comb, I decided to buy a nuc and split.
I picked up the queen and nuc.
I got home, started preparing the nuc, the gear and all of the sudden found I was in the middle of the swarm that absconded...they had stayed on the neighbors orange tree overnight and decided to fly west this time. Apparently my swarm trap was unappealing.
So then I built my own push on queen cage thing and sank it onto some comb with honey and brood for her, let her and the attendants go inside and placed the frame into the nuc. Before I got to this point though I had her cage on a table twenty feet from the hive., it had about six of my bees walking around it and more coming to check her out. They didnt seem like they wanted to sting her.
Each frame I put into the nuc I checked for potential virgin queens. I seriously doubt I would have seen one if it had been on the frames though, but I have a 50% chance the frames were without a virgin queen. So now the nuc has some frames with maybe 5-20 capped brood on each side and a full frame of capped honey and lots of nectar, the bees did a mambo line to the queen in her little wire apartment and were flicking their wings...which I thought was a good indicator that they were queenless
I will remove that wire thing in four days on the nuc and check the other hive daily by observation to see if they act like they have a queen. If this purchased queen doesn't take I can combine the hive again, if the other box does have a virgin queen, she will begin laying in 14 days... I am bewildered, smell like smoke and I am going to take a nap.
Hopefully I did ok, the bees will tell me soon enough.


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