# New hand holds!



## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Hey everyone,
I just got in from the shop and creating a new handhold for hive bodies and supers that I like very well. I haven't seen this design anywhere else yet, so forgive me if this is not actually new. It is a simple dado-type cut, but has angled top and bottom edges. The top is angled up for a good undercut grip/hold, and the bottom edge is angled the same direction for water runoff. They are easier and faster for me to make than Hogans hand hold, plus they have the undercut and are wider overall. It is made with a larger blade, hence the width change. The slant/angle is about 22 degrees. So that is my new and improved box. What do you think? All input is welcome! Here are some photos.

The old:








The new:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yup, that aught to work.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I like it because those are exactly the kind I make.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

jmgi said:


> I like it because those are exactly the kind I make.


Aha! I knew someone was already as brilliant as I was!!! :applause:


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

westernbeekeeper, I made up a jig for my tablesaw, actually two jigs, one for the short side of the box and one for the long side. It makes a nice handhold, I think mine are about 5" wide. Very simple to make once you get the jigs set up.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

I use my sliding compund miter saw. Using a 10" blade, and no jig. Are yours the same depth from top to bottom? Takes less than 30 seconds per handhold.


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## Father & Sons Apiary (Sep 4, 2013)

Could you show how you make em?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Sure...I'll try to post some pics tomorrow.


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## Father & Sons Apiary (Sep 4, 2013)

Thank you


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## cblakely (Sep 6, 2013)

Just watched this video last night: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7celcnrkEE

It is a tutorial on how to make a nuc box, but he takes about four minutes (4:52 - 8:53) to show how to make those handles.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

Father & Sons Apiary said:


> Could you show how you make em?


I agree, Westernbeekeeper. I'd like to know how to make them as well. Thanks.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Those were the first type I ever made. I got too nervous dropping a board onto a dado pack and just went to cleats. Seems like every handhold I made like that has a black widow hiding in it during late summer.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

nice might try that soon


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

westernbeekeeper, yes my handholds are the same depth top to bottom, you cut yours on a slight angle so that your's are a touch deeper at the bottom, correct? I just use the dado blade in my saw set to cut about 5/8" deep. I clamp the jig onto the table saw top, put one end of the board against the stop on the jig and lower the board down onto the dado blade until it contacts the table, then I have to slide the board about an inch until it contacts the opposite stop on the jig. It may sound dangerous (maybe it is, ha!) but I have never had any problem, the board covers the blade so it's not exposed, no flying chips of wood, takes about 30 seconds per handhold also. I am careful and only hold the ends of the board with my finger tips as I'm cutting, like I said never had anything bad happen doing it this way.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Westernbeekeeper.

Nice hand hold, and will absolutely work.

I did the same for years, but, when I started selling nucs, and complete hives, people would notice the hand hold (made with a dado blade) and ask if the boxes were home made. For some reason, there is just apprehension about people buying hives that may be home made versus commercial. Some of these concerns are justified, because, some home made boxes do not conform to proper bee space, length and height. I found that making a hand hold that closely resembled commercial boxes, the subject of who made the box never comes up.

cchoganjr


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Good point Cleo. Thanks for the explanation; I can see where that might come in quite handy!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Westernbeekeeper... Others.... If you think you may one day want to sell nucs, complete hives, or, used boxes, I would highly recommend finding a system that closely resembles the commercial handle. There are lots of examples on U-Tube that uses a Table Saw, a Radial Arm Saw, or a Router. Some are simple, some are more difficult. For some the setup time for the jig, and cutting, is less than desirable. Some take longer to cut the handles. Some are DOWNRIGHT dangerous. (PLEASE AVOID THOSE). I would recommend that everyone watch these and see which one is best for them.

I believe rabbet joints are just as good for bee boxes, as box joints, but, since box joints are the industry standard, if you plan to sell any boxes, hives, nucs, used equipment, I would work toward converting to box joints.

I know some people like the undercut handles, but, not me. I do not wear gloves, and the undercut is kinda like picking up a box with an attached razor blade. Cuts right through the fingers, very uncomfortable.

I have not played with my design, but, I believe the undercut could be accomplished on my jig by extending the length of the ramps. Since I don't like undercuts, ( I like a slightly convex, not concave or flat cut ), I have never worked on it.

Someone with lots of time on their hands, and time to play in the woodworking shop, I believe, could make the handle with the undercut.

Thanks for your input. You do good quality looking work. Glad to see people always trying to find a better way, not necessarily reinventing the wheel.

cchoganjr


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

This is the cross-section view of my hand holds:
View attachment crossectionviewhandhold.bmp


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

My favorite hand holds are cut with a radius on the top(the radius of your finger), the inverted surface slightly tipped down to the outside(to catch the fingers), and the vertical wall of the cut being on a large radius to create a "D" shape where it meets the plane of the outside surface of he wood. I believe the cutter is advanced to cut with the face, and not the ends. 

Crazy Roland


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't understand why anyone would not want to buy nuc's from someone just because they make their own nuc boxes with different handholds and corner joints than what the bee supply companies sell. If you do quality work building equipment, people will recognize it for the most part. Yes, there will always be a few picky beginners who will think everything has to look like it does in the catalog or its not built right, so what. With the demand for bees what it is today, I would not worry about the shape of the handholds or rabbet vs. box joints when making equipment to sell, but that's just me. To quote Mike Palmer, "it's what is in the box that counts".


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

jmgi.. I agree totally, and I don't understand it either. Just know it happens. 

It is what is in the box that counts, but, the box does count too. If you are selling a product that looks non standard, then they wonder if what is inside is also non standard. Just me, but, I would not underestimate the value of how something looks, especially until you establish a reputation.

People are less likely to want commercially looking equipment for nuc, than for full size hives, ( 8 or 10 framers). Lots of people spend as much time making their apiary look good, as to make honey. Commercial bee keepers, for the most part,, don't really care what the box looks like as long as it performs, but, it is a different ball game with hobbiest and backyard beekeeper.


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## Moots (Nov 26, 2012)

jmgi said:


> I don't understand why anyone would not want to buy nuc's from someone just because they make their own nuc boxes with different handholds and corner joints than what the bee supply companies sell. If you do quality work building equipment, people will recognize it for the most part. Yes, there will always be a few picky beginners who will think everything has to look like it does in the catalog or its not built right, so what. With the demand for bees what it is today, I would not worry about the shape of the handholds or rabbet vs. box joints when making equipment to sell, but that's just me. To quote Mike Palmer, "it's what is in the box that counts".


jmgi,
I agree with your premise for the most part. I use all mediums and build my own boxes...I use rabbet joints because they are a heck of a lot easier to make and I'm convinced that they are plenty strong enough when glued and stapled properly, as well as possibly having an advantage over box joints because you only leave half the amount of end grain exposed to the elements. (But that's a whole different discussion) 

However, the other point that was being made is correct...Understand that since I use Rabbet joints, while the inside dimensions of my box is the same as the commercial boxes, the outside dimensions are different. Therefore, that would cause issues that I think a lot of folks would not like if they started stacking my style boxes among commercial boxes. I guess whether those issues are purely aesthetic or "actual issues" is another debate....but I don't think most would want to do it regardless. I know I wouldn't!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Cleo: All good points and I pretty much agree with everything except, long term (say 20+ years) a finger joint far outperforms any rabbet joint I have ever seen. There is a reason all major bee equipment manufacturers use exclusively finger joints. 
Yes, in reselling there is a hurdle to overcome if things don't pass the first visual test of uniformity. My father spent years growing our business by buying out smaller operations. I have dealt with the gamut of homemade equipment but my reaction was always the same the first time I would see the latest stuff he purchased....."oh no! What this time?"
If you have designs on growing your operation considerably, or even if you don't and you think you might want to sell some day. I recommend that do it yourselfers mimic commercial appearance and particularly dimensions as closely as possible. It's not an indictment on anyone's woodworking skills just a statement of reality.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Hmmm, I make my hive bodies with _rabbet _joints as well, but the finished box dimensions - inside and outside - _match _the dimensions of the Beesource Build it Yourself plans, which show _box _joints.

As far as the perception of different handholds giving potential purchasers concern that the boxes are "homemade" and somehow inferior to other boxes, the solution is to _promote _that as a feature! 

Include a photo of the handhold cross section, and talk about how your design is an _improvement _on the ordinary handhold available elsewhere. Product _differentiation _is the key to separating your product from the pack and _possibly _getting a higher price.

The same principle is at work in marketing _local honey_, Ford vs Chevy, Roundup vs glyphosate, and Shell gasoline vs "ordinary" gasoline.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Jim lyon...Well stated, good advise for those considering building their own equipment, and possibly selling bees and equipment someday.

I suspect someone will jump on the finger joint, box joint statement. But, i agree with you. 

cchoganjr


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If I was building and selling boxes, I would consider acquiring a wax dipping tank and selling _dipped _hive components. As far as I am aware, _Country Rubes_ is one of the few vendors offering dipped hive components in "retail" quantities.

Use the dipping tank for your own boxes, and sell dipped boxes to separate yourself from competitors. Obviously, the boxes must be sold assembled, but from a practical point of view a small hive body producer will not have an easy time competing with outfits like Western Bee for unassembled boxes anyway.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> If I was building and selling boxes, I would consider acquiring a wax dipping tank and selling _dipped _hive components.
> Use the dipping tank for your own boxes, and sell dipped boxes to separate yourself from competitors.


Totally agree. Would certainly buy assembled, dipped boxes ........... no paint...........ever! A BIG selling point......


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## Moots (Nov 26, 2012)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Hmmm, I make my hive bodies with _rabbet _joints as well, but the finished box dimensions - inside and outside - _match _the dimensions of the Beesource Build it Yourself plans, which show _box _joints.


Rader,
WOW! You're correct! Not sure what I was thinking there, other than the cut on the long side boards have to be different between the two styles of joints...But the finished product does have the same dimensions! Again, not sure what I was thinking...I'll attribute to the fact that I hadn't had my morning coffee yet. LOL! Apologies...

Regardless, I'm still a fan of rabbet joints, and know many that would agree, as well as many that would disagree. :lpf:


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Moots said:


> However, the other point that was being made is correct...Understand that since I use Rabbet joints, while the inside dimensions of my box is the same as the commercial boxes, the outside dimensions are different. Therefore, that would cause issues that I think a lot of folks would not like if they started stacking my style boxes among commercial boxes. I guess whether those issues are purely aesthetic or "actual issues" is another debate....but I don't think most would want to do it regardless. I know I wouldn't!


I don't know why your outside box dimensions would be any different than store bought when using rabbet joints, I use rabbets and my inside and outside dimensions are exactly the same as any you buy. :scratch:


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## Moots (Nov 26, 2012)

jmgi said:


> I don't know why your outside box dimensions would be any different than store bought when using rabbet joints, I use rabbets and my inside and outside dimensions are exactly the same as any you buy. :scratch:


jmgi,
They're NOT! See my post above...I have no plausible, reasonable, or logical explanation as to what I was thinking...


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## pihlpet (Nov 3, 2011)

Here is a link to my handle:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...79m33DJ4/w945-h709-no/2013-05-08+09.42.50.jpg

Peter


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## Moots (Nov 26, 2012)

pihlpet said:


> Here is a link to my handle:
> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...79m33DJ4/w945-h709-no/2013-05-08+09.42.50.jpg
> 
> Peter


Peter,
Nice! 

Has that wood been treated? If so, with what?


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## pihlpet (Nov 3, 2011)

Moots said:


> Peter,
> Nice!
> 
> Has that wood been treated? If so, with what?


Thanks! Yes, the wood is treated. It is treated with only heat - thermotreatment (no chemicals are used). 
My hives are like that all-year-round, without any paint etc.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAFwk/7WXk65thn80/w1278-h567-no/CAM00050.jpg

Peter


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## Moots (Nov 26, 2012)

pihlpet said:


> Thanks! Yes, the wood is treated. It is treated with only heat - thermotreatment (no chemicals are used).
> My hives are like that all-year-round, without any paint etc.
> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAFwk/7WXk65thn80/w1278-h567-no/CAM00050.jpg
> 
> Peter


Very interesting...From the look of it, I thought maybe you had used ECO International. I was going to pick your brain for an opinion if so...I've purchased some, but haven't tried it yet. Up until now I'd been painting my boxes.

Thanks,
Jeff


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## pihlpet (Nov 3, 2011)

Moots said:


> Very interesting...From the look of it, I thought maybe you had used ECO International. I was going to pick your brain for an opinion if so...I've purchased some, but haven't tried it yet. Up until now I'd been painting my boxes.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jeff


Sorry, can't help with opinion on personal practice.
And I just noticed, that there are many different handles on my last picture 

Peter


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## Alpha11 (Oct 6, 2013)

Nice work!


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## TheBeeVlog (Jan 23, 2014)

pihlpet said:


> Here is a link to my handle:
> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...79m33DJ4/w945-h709-no/2013-05-08+09.42.50.jpg


Very nice! Can you explain how you did that?

My video was posted earlier in this thread that shows how I cut mine. My handles are similar to yours but I don't have that bottom chamfer. I only cut them this way out of laziness and convenience. If I could add a slope or chamfer to allow water to run off then I'd be a little happier with them.


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## pihlpet (Nov 3, 2011)

Actually im using a different machine - spindle moulder.
Principal is the same as in the video you posted but the operation is done vertically not horisontally.
And im using two stop-blocks, one in the beginning and one in the end. Allows making looong handholds

I can try, maybe I can do a video about that.



TheBeeVlog said:


> Very nice! Can you explain how you did that?
> 
> My video was posted earlier in this thread that shows how I cut mine. My handles are similar to yours but I don't have that bottom chamfer. I only cut them this way out of laziness and convenience. If I could add a slope or chamfer to allow water to run off then I'd be a little happier with them.


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## pihlpet (Nov 3, 2011)

Here is a picture of the cutter:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-r4H0kBdNpPU/UuYOHs6HX_I/AAAAAAAAF_w/r6U5ozJzchk/s640/CAM00143.jpg


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## TheBeeVlog (Jan 23, 2014)

pihlpet said:


> Here is a picture of the cutter:
> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-r4H0kBdNpPU/UuYOHs6HX_I/AAAAAAAAF_w/r6U5ozJzchk/s640/CAM00143.jpg


Ah ha. Very nice. Makes sense now. Thanks!


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