# Queens are relatively cheaper now than before Varroa????



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

I don't know the answer to this. I do know that when I started out in '91, the first thing I did was lose my queen. The replacement from Weaver was $11--I still have the receipt!

Rusty


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> There are no substitutes for queens.

In a literal sense that statement is absolutely correct.

But, the commercial *price *for a queen is driven by the interaction of demand (those wishing to _purchase _queens) and supply (those wishing to _sell _queens). 

If more beekeepers raise their own queens (not offered for sale), then the demand curve is altered and the intersection of the demand and supply curves occurs at a lower price point. 

Of course, economics is the _dismal science_, and some would say not science at all!  :lpf:


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Ouch! $11 in 1991 is only $18.82 in 2013. All kidding aside, I'm not too sure how much credibility to give these inflation calculators wrt queen bee prices. I think you'd be better off judging the current market and making +/- adjustments based upon your product. Just my 2 cents (2014 money, of course, which would have been only 1 cent in 1975  )


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Shhhhhhh,, what the heck are you trying to do?? you know those guys read these post!


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_JBJ _(the OP) _*is *_a queen breeder and seller.


----------



## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> _JBJ _(the OP) _*is *_a queen breeder and seller.


Very true.

Using the same calculator for a gallon of milk which cost about $1.57 in 1975 would be $6.80 so perhaps milk is not a good parallel and maybe the inflation calculator is fallible as average price for milk was about $3.48 in 2013(there are some who predict much higher prices in the near future). One could very well argue there have been much more efficiency gains in the dairy industry since 1975 with breeding and production methods than there has been in apiculture.

To know what the actual current supply and demand for queens was would be great. Demand seems very strong from my perspective and seems to the the consensus among other producers I have spoken with. I would be willing to bet queen bee economics closely parallel pollination economics. Rental prices have not followed crop value very closely historically. Burgett's pollination survey and articles make a strong argument that beekeepers have historically undervalued their pollination services and I would be willing to argue they same could be true of queens and honey.

If the demand curve for queens is relatively inelastic then an increase in price should not negatively affect demand? Econ class was a way long time ago. 

I would argue that demand for queens should be increasing as they are an integral component of our food production system as vast monoculture farming acreage increases and wipes out wild pollinator habitat; this is all in the face of an ever increasing population that like to eat.

Maybe all beekeepers should get paid better?


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

JBJ said:


> Maybe all beekeepers should get paid better?


sound good to me. the part that you would have to factor in, when I first started with bees, I could get them from one person locally, or have them shipped in. I don't live in that area any more, but being 350 miles away, right now I know of the top of my head 7 or 8 people I could get queens from and if I really looked around could come up with alot more. with the internet, sites like this, and the kits available doesn't take very long to raise your own. Heck I gave my friend my work sheet, bought him a jenter, showed him twice how to do it and the man went crazy raising queens, and he's 77 years young. Just look at the commercial beeks on here that now raise their own, then you have Miska out of florida shipping queen cells all over the place, why would I buy a queen that may or may not be mated very well, when I can order queen cells for $5.00 shipped in and make sure there are plenty of drones to mate with them. just saying:lookout: then we look at milk, factor in all the subsidies that the farmers get, add that to the price(because you do pay it) and then come up with the real price of milk. bet you will come up with a price that would switch you to some other beverage.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

"Fluid" Milk is not a good historical comparison as the price of fluid milk is artificially manipulated by direct government action.

I could argue that the price of queens is somewhat influenced (in a macro sense) by the price of honey and its substitutes. The rise of rise in the quantity of HFCS produced since the 1980s and its influence on domestic sugar prices inevitably affects honey prices, and in a roundabout way, queen prices.

Note that queens are _only _sold to other beekeepers.  If the prices of queens rise, those beekeepers _buying _queens will be poorer.  :lookout:


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

In 1974, my first packages were $10.50 delivered to Vermont. Queens were $7.00. Honey in drums was $.50/lb.

Now, here, packaged bees are $100, queens $30, and honey $2.25 in the drum.

Honey price increased 450%. Bees by 950%. Queens by 428%.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Well here is an Idea... get one of those TF wizards to share his genetic line thats bullet proof (several swear buy it) and 50.00 a queen is absolutly no problem.....


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I have a facebook page that attracts quite a few followers. All year long I post photos and information about my program here, genetics, experiments, tips and maintenence for local/seasonal management. My followers see my success, my healthy hives and all the possibilities that go along with it. It is what they strive to have for themselves. and by the time they buy something from me, they feel like they know me and my product well.

So when I offer my queens for $40.00 each, I have no problem selling every one I can raise. Many people tell me I am selling them too cheap.

I do offer volume discounts, but generally my customers are hobbyists that only need a few, one at a time, usually at a moments notice. I only sell locally and my queens are never banked. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-VW_PMRHCs


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Best I can tell, the issue for you guys is China.

Here, queens go for 35 or 40 bucks, bog standard queen. But we do not allow honey imports so our honey does not have to compete on the domestic market with cheap imports plus our exports get good dollars too. So beekeepers can afford to pay for a queen.

I suspect that in a country where you have to compete with cheap third world imports, the price of a queen is dictated by what a beekeeper can afford to pay plus still make a decent profit off that hive.

For a hobby beekeeper the pleasure of having a really great queen outweighs the cost. But looking at the massive and "industrial" scale & methods of US commercial beekeepers I would imagine they would be expecting queens at a pretty competitive price. I also understand US queen breeders have access to cheap Mexican labor? As labor is a high proportion of the cost to make a queen, this may also allow production at a lower cost than someone like me would be able to do them for.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

acces to cheap Mexican labor is an interesting term... I can tell you many of the larger guys have Mexican crews. The real issue is not the cost of that labor, but the quality. Most of the Mexican workers are highly skilled and dedicated. and are paid a decent wage. Those crews though can be relied on to get the job done and not leave it half way.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I purchased queens for $6 each in 1977 from Glenn Fowler who had been the president of American Bee Breeders Association in the 1960's. No shipping was involved, I called in advance, he caged the queens, I picked them up an hour or less later. I still remember carrying those queens home in my car and installing them in colonies built from swarms I had captured. In 1985, he raised the price to $8 each because of the rampant inflation at that time.

It is worth noting that he was the most scrupulously conscientious queen breeder I've met. His queens were outstandingly good Italians.


----------



## JMoore (May 30, 2013)

I've been reading A.I. Root's ABCs & XYZs of Bee Culture. In the preface he writes that in 1865 he bought a queen from Rev. Langstroth for $20.00. Therefore...we should be selling queens for $295.74


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Therefore...we should be selling queens for $295.74 

That was an Italian when they were hard to come by, which would probably be the equivelant of our "breeder queens". Yes, that's about right...


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Equating a queen to the value of 10 pounds of honey has been a pretty close benchmark to the bottom end pricing through the years for quantity purchases. Obviously, though, supply and demand is the final determinant.


----------



## CesarBeeCool (Apr 11, 2011)

This is from CC Miller; Fifty years among the Bees.

"In 1866 I got my first Italian queen, paying R. R.
Murphy $6.00 for her, and the following year I paid
$10.00 for another to Mrs. Ellen S. Tupper, who was at
one time editor of a bee-journal."

That is some steep year to year inflation.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

In 1969 (when I was 13 [acuially I would turn 13 later that year] - I'd been keeping bees for 3 years) I received a queen from Hawaii. I was in Lompoc, Californis, she was in a 3-hole wooden cage, with candy plug and attendants. A postcard was attached to the cage with postage and addresses. She arrived just fine and with shipping included, the cost was less than $4.00.

It's a vivid memory, as the postal carrier rang our doorbell and hand delivered her, directly to me. I remember holding her and staring at them for several minutes, and being amazed that she arrived so quickly after I ordered her, and it was so wonderful (this was the very first queen I had received, without being part of a package of bees). I also remember wondering how the queen could, so easily be shipped in such a manner, yet be perfectly safe. I used her to make my first split. I only had one colony of Starline bees, at the time.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

CesarBeeCool said:


> That is some steep year to year inflation.


In 1974, I paid $10.50 @ delivered for my 3 lb. packages. In 1978, the price was $19.95


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> I don't know the answer to this. I do know that when I started out in '91, the first thing I did was lose my queen. The replacement from Weaver was $11--*I still have the receipt!*
> 
> Rusty


If you still had the queen ( alive) I would have to say " Now were talkin."


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Equating a queen to the value of 10 pounds of honey 

Retail or wholesale? The average retail price for honey, last I heard, was over $6 a pound which would be over $60 a queen. That sounds about right to me...


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

For good queens that can be TF 60.00 is a no brainer........ thats kinda been my point for months!


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Equating a queen to the value of 10 pounds of honey
> 
> Retail or wholesale? The average retail price for honey, last I heard, was over $6 a pound which would be over $60 a queen. That sounds about right to me...


The people that get quantity discounts from queen suppliers are pretty much the same ones selling wholesale to packers. Currently the ratio is pretty close. $2.15 a lb, and somewhere in the low 20's on queens. I haven't seen it vary dramatically from that ratio. Remember when the ABBA used to meet each winter and come out of their meetings with unified pricing? We used to rib them and refer to it as the queen cartel,


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Wow I remeber ABBA too them blondes were nice....


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

gmcharlie said:


> Wow I remeber ABBA too them blondes were nice....


It was the American Bee Breeders Association. Those in the "cartel" would proudly display the logo on their advertising. It was pretty much a who's who of queen breeders at the time. Check out a vintage ABJ from the 1970's or so. 
They wanted you to "take a chance" on their queens.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> They wanted you to "take a chance" on their queens. 


:lookout:


... note that _honey _is featured prominently at that link ...


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

The only problem with this fuzzy math is........ What was the avg production of honey per hive today verses 30-40 years ago, beekeepers & calculators........ 

It's easy to switch the math to support any angle.


----------



## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> The only problem with this fuzzy math is........ What was the avg production of honey per hive today verses 30-40 years ago, beekeepers & calculators........
> 
> It's easy to switch the math to support any angle.


Great point. I wonder if beekeepers are even valuing US honey appropriately. Is it more difficult to produce a barrel of honey now compared to 25 years ago?

I am sure cheap imported honey changes the equation, but demand for US honey seems very high.


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Keith Jarrett said:


> The only problem with this fuzzy math is........ What was the avg production of honey per hive today verses 30-40 years ago, beekeepers & calculators........
> 
> It's easy to switch the math to support any angle.



That and are the commercial queens the same quality they were 30 or more years ago? 

I wasn't there so I dont know.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Kamon Reynolds said:


> That and are the commercial queens the same quality they were 30 or more years ago? .


Kamon, I think a lot of the queen breeders are doing a good job, I think where we as commercial keepers run into a problem is, where mite treatments are damaging the queens.


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Kamon, I think a lot of the queen breeders are doing a good job, I think where we as commercial keepers run into a problem is, where mite treatments are damaging the queens.


As the mites seem to become resistant to more and more of the "treatments" the fine line where this queen "damaging" is occurring happens to be one of the many constantly moving "sweet spots" in beekeeping.


----------

