# Fumigilin®-B: yes/no/maybe...



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Nope, never used it, and don't ever plan on using it either.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

I have used it, but mostly in the fall or autumn of the year. I have only three hives going, so in the future I could refrain from "using" it on one of the hives and just see what,.. "happens" over the course of a few years.


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

you forgot one catagory. Never Used it and dont intend on it. That be the one I would check


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

We feed a minimum of two gallons of Fumagillin syrup in the fall and one gallon minimum for spring.
The research done on this product reported that the bees benefited most with the fall feedings. If you feed 5 gallons of syrup make the last 2 gallons medicatted so that the bees consume it and it is not covered up withuntreated syrup. This spring is a good time to start.
Mix the fumagillin into your syrup just before you feed the bees. Sunshine can degrade the Fumagillin, I mix the Fumagillin into water and then add it to the syrup. For large amounts like 100 gallons, we add it to the tank and let the by-pass tube off the Dadant fructose pump mix it into a homogeneous mix. I put a i" x 2" plastic open nipple inside the tank where the by-pass empties into the tank + a 1" T + 2 more 1" open nipples that are 8" long + a 1" cap. Idrilled holes in the two lon nipples at 12 & 6:00 and 9 & 3:00 to make the syrup mix into the tank better than just pouring back via the 1" by-pass return. I let the pumpm run and mix the batch of medicated syrup from the shop to the field and of course as we fill the inside feeders which are in the top super as well as the bottom brood chamber.
We park the syrup truck inside the shop if we want to keeep the sun shine from degrading the Fumagillin. You can add WSTM if you choose.
I hope this helps you.
Regards,
Ernie 
Lucas Apiaries.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

ok now i know that i am not an 'experienced' bee keeper. This is only my third year. But I am an experienced cattle producer who handles drugs,vaccinates, and de worms cattle.
And this i do know. If you are going to treat, treat all the same. 
If you are treating for a sickness, quarentine and treat untill the ilness is gone or there is no hope of recovery.
When we de worm cattle we do every bovine on the farm the recommended dosage so we do not create resistance.
If we vaccinate we vaccinate everyone so as not to cause one animal to get sick and cause immunity stress on the other animals


If you treat some hives and leave some hives you are going to cause yourself problems and most likely the rest of us over time.

Here is the reason

First, the bees are in one site. So even if they only go to their hive they still co mingle. In the fields, at the water source, on the ground, mating.
If you mix treated VS non treated what happens is the non treated can infect the treated over prolonged exposer. You are still treating the treat hives, eventually they become infected and Voila resistance to Fummagillan B or what ever drug of choice. 
If there are sites close to yours and the bees co mingle, same thing happens, voila they now have resistance. Their bees mix with some one elses site and so on and so on.
If you treat one hive and not the other and the other eventually becomes infected becauses it stresses the immunity of the health hive causing them to take the time to fight and thus wearing their immunity down. 

This is how we get drug resistance in humans...not taking the antibiotics for the recommended time at the recommended dosage.
Same with cattle, sheep and any thing else out there

If you are going to experiment with some hives they should be separated far enough to prevent co - mingleing. Otherwise some poor shlop, maybe you, will have trouble in the future.

Treat all or treat non. do not treat some.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Or....

You could check your bees to see if they have a nosema spore problem first with a blender & scope and then make the call. Hmmm

Maybe the guys that feed fumagilin fall & spring would be interested in some pollen sub too?

That has shown to be just as effective at certain times.

Fumagilin is stressfull on the bees BTW.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Or....
> 
> You could check your bees to see if they have a nosema spore problem first with a blender & scope and then make the call. Hmmm
> 
> ...


I am sure glad that all of these threads start out with the proud "No medications, no treatments" gallery.
I am able to keep my "Do not pollinate with" list up to date.
But I'm with Keith. Test.

>>>Fumagilin is stressfull on the bees BTW.<<<

Yeah, but so is nosema ceranae.


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

Thanks for the fast replies. Very informative.

*Honeyshack*, thanks for the info. Maybe you've made my decision for me. I don't know If I actually want to treat all my hives. But next year I'll have a few in a new location, several mi. away from my current field, so maybe I'll try some this fall, and compare the treated to the non-treated.

*Keith*, perhaps I should stick to my instinctive philosophy and not medicate at all.

-Nathanael


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

HarryVanderpool said:


> I am sure glad that all of these threads start out with the proud "No medications, no treatments" gallery.
> I am able to keep my "Do not pollinate with" list up to date.


I'm glad your glad. 

I wouldn't want to comingle my bees with migratory bees either.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary said:


> Thanks for the fast replies. Very informative.
> 
> *Honeyshack*, thanks for the info. Maybe you've made my decision for me. I don't know If I actually want to treat all my hives. But next year I'll have a few in a new location, several mi. away from my current field, so maybe I'll try some this fall, and compare the treated to the non-treated.
> 
> ...


just how did i make your decision? That is up to you!
Please keep in mind bees can travel 5 miles to forage. So any test site has to be 10 miles apart as the crow flies + a buffer zone, say 1 mile maybe 2.

Please don not give me credit for making your descion. These are your bees and as such you need to do what is best for you...and the industry at large.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I've used Fumidil-B it does not mix well with water. Fumigillin is eaiser to mix so more likely more effective. I generally have not treated unless I have a problem as Nosema clears up almost instantly once treated.

What's the verdict on effectiveness against Cernae?


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Like other aspects of beekeeping, I suspect this is also different for different locations. I would rather not use it since it is rather expensive, but I notice quite a difference in my spring bees with it.

Maybe it is our common long wet springs. I don't know. I tried to go without for a few years, but now always use it. So if you don't need it count yourself lucky, but be careful with blanket statements about needing it or not.

Go to your local beekeeping meeting and ask if people use it or not. Then ask why they use it. If you don't get an good answer on the "why", try going without it for a year or two.


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

[ You could check your bees to see if they have a nosema spore problem first ...]

Boy that just sounds like work and the responsible thing to do, don't expect that to materialize with this crowd - its much easier to just say I don't treat because its evil, instead of understanding why it works where nature fails. Gee... Treating when the disease is identified, what a concept. 

[ If you are treating for a sickness, quarentine and treat untill the ilness is gone]

The problem is that most people assume that Fug. is the only necessary treatment and stop there. They treat with the chemical until the condition is no longer seen. This does not remove the pathogen from the hive, nor prevent its spread to other hives. Nosema spores can lay dormant for years, not decades like AFB, but it also doesn't take a dozen spores to start the disease (casting off 50 million spores from one spore infection). 

[What's the verdict on effectiveness against Cernae?]

It take 4 treatments to be effective. (Spain)

[Fumagilin is stressfull on the bees BTW.]

Gotta love half information. Perhaps if you make a statement you should back it up with some information HOW IT IS STRESSFULL on the bees, unless you don't know and are throwing blind statements to imply an understanding. Maybe I should just accept it because someone said so. 

This concept of I'm not treating because most of the people on the bandwagon claim they are not (who knows?), is as mindless as lemmings off a cliff. 


[ Maybe the guys that feed fumagilin fall & spring would be interested in some pollen sub too? That has shown to be just as effective at certain times.]

While I think it may appear that there is temporary relief, the disease can not be eliminated by pollen alone. You are merely diluting the disease, not curing it. That is only if the bees are able to perform cleansing flights, else you are making matters considerably worse. 

But I'd have to say, it was a nice try, perhaps you might get someone to want to buy a few thousand pounds of your secret recipe pollen supplement, if they don't do their homework.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

perhaps some might profit by reading this thread first????? lots of good information there plus an address for sending bees so that you might know rather that just wonder.

Beesource Beekeeping Forums > General Beekeeping Forums > Beekeeping 101 
fumigillin: how vital?


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Thanks for the reality check NW IN Beekeeper. This 'feel good' understanding of infectious diseases is really annoying and a disservice to beginner beekeepers. There is lots of gratitude and bandwagon following on this website towards advise that this beekeeper calls 'very questionable'. 

To keep healthy bees, in no particular order,

1. know what a healthy (better yet exceptional) colony looks like.
2. know you disease's epidemiology
3. know the known controls of disease and potential new controls
4. know side effects of controls and use the least damaging to the system that is still effective.
5. prevention
6. actively survey colonies for disease
7. take action when diseases reach 'economic' levels before its too late.
8. the steps I forgot to mention or haven't learned yet myself

or you can do nothing and hope for the best! 

cheers!


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

I suppose my only lingering question now is if Fumigilin-B would be considered an organic treatment method? And how is it stressful on the bees?

-Nathanael


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

organic?... I would think no.

stress... it is often suggested that a bee hive will display symptoms of stress on a honey flow. so I am not sure what that particular question will answer.


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

tecumseh said:


> perhaps some might profit by reading this thread first????? lots of good information there plus an address for sending bees so that you might know rather that just wonder.
> 
> Beesource Beekeeping Forums > General Beekeeping Forums > Beekeeping 101
> fumigillin: how vital?


Thanks Tecumseh, That (http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214357&highlight=fumigilin) was a good read! I think I've learned the value of the search tool

-Nathanael


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

honeyshack said:


> just how did i make your decision? That is up to you!
> Please keep in mind bees can travel 5 miles to forage. So any test site has to be 10 miles apart as the crow flies + a buffer zone, say 1 mile maybe 2.
> 
> Please don not give me credit for making your descion. These are your bees and as such you need to do what is best for you...and the industry at large.


My new location is over 10 mi. I'll hoping to split my hives into a group of 5 and 10 by summer... so I was thinking of testing it out on the group of 5 this fall. Besides my apiary's pretty much broke right now!

I'm not sure how easy it would be to get my bees tested in this state, We only have one inspector... I'll have to call.

-Nathanael


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

NW IN Beekeeper said:


> [ You could check your bees to see if they have a nosema spore problem first ...]
> 
> >>Boy that just sounds like work and the responsible thing to do, don't expect that to materialize with this crowd -Treating when the disease is identified, what a concept.
> 
> ...


Keith replies, Nice try my [edit by mod] , it's right on target.


PS.. fumigilin does nothing more than mask the problem, unless you sterize the comb it's a on going war.When you have a out break is just a matter of time.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

NW IN Beekeeper said:


> [ You could check your bees to see if they have a nosema spore problem first ...]
> 
> Boy that just sounds like work and the responsible thing to do, don't expect that to materialize with this crowd - its much easier to just say I don't treat because its evil, instead of understanding why it works where nature fails. Gee... Treating when the disease is identified, what a concept.
> ...
> Gotta love half information. Perhaps if you make a statement you should back it up with some information HOW IT IS STRESSFULL on the bees, unless you don't know and are throwing blind statements to imply an understanding. Maybe I should just accept it because someone said so.


Seems that I read in the ABJ that the treatment with fumigillan is similar to a human taking systemic antibiotics...it can affect the balance of the bacteria in the gut of the bee. But I can't find the article right now and can look it up when I get home.

As far as checking for nosema...so far in 4 years I haven't seen what I think would warrant treatment so it hasn't been worth it. And while I plan on purchasing a microscope for the kids in the future, it isn't worth it to do that right now. Not for something I haven't seen, and for less than 10 hives.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

ScadsOBees said:


> And while I plan on purchasing a microscope for the kids in the future, it isn't worth it to do that right now. Not for something I haven't seen, and for less than 10 hives.


ScadsObees, you bring up a good point.

A scope cost's about the same as four large ( 9.5) bottles of fumigilin. A keeper has to make a choice whether it's worth the investment.

Keith MissBeeHaven


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

*Thymol better than Fumidil-B*

Hi all,

I have done a fair bit of searching on treatments for Nosema, I came across a 3-year study done at Ege University in Turkey in 2002. They compared the effectiveness of Fumidil-B and Thymol. To summarize the results:

2002 First Year of treatment:
Fumidil-B, 55 colonies - Avg. 4.98 million spores per bee
Thymol, 55 colonies - Avg. 5.06 million spores per bee
Untreated, 52 colonies - Avg. 5.14 million spores per bee 

2003 Second Year of treatment:
Fumidil-B, 40 colonies - Avg. 3.8 million spores per bee, Winter loss: 15 colonies (27%)
Thymol, 53 colonies - Avg. 2.8 million spores per bee, Winter loss: 2 colonies (4%)
Untreated, 31 colonies - Avg. 6.0 million spores per bee, Winter loss: 21 colonies (40%)

2004 Third Year of treatment:
Fumidil-B, 32 colonies - Avg. 3.7 million spores per bee, Winter loss: 8 colonies (20%)
Thymol, 51 colonies - Avg. 0.6 million spores per bee, Winter loss: 2 colonies (4%)
Untreated, 15 colonies - Avg. 6.7 million spores per bee, Winter loss: 16 colonies (50%)

The effectiveness of Thymol appears to be much better than Fumidil-B. The lack of a short term effect on spore counts in the first year can be explained by the fact that Thymol works by inactivating the spore, whereas Fumidil-B works after the spore is activated so many of the spores that were observed in the first year of the Thymol group were most likely inactive (as is supported by the significantly better overwintering stats). There was further evidence of the effectiveness of Thymol in the first year when the Avg. worker counts, brood surface area and honey production are compared between the groups. 

The indication of this study is that with Thymol you can reduce the Nosema to a level that will not cause re-infection in subsequent years. Fumidil-B will not bring it down to that level and will require that the colonies be continuously treated (it seems to lose effectiveness over time). In addition the Thymol group outperformed the Fumidil-B group during all years of treatment.

There are also several additional advantages of Thymol:

1. It retards molds in the syrup and pollen substitute.
2. It has been shown to have a repellent effect on the Small Hive Beetle (IMHO, this is because it retards the growth of the yeast that SHB infect the pollen with that helps attract them to the hive). 

In light of this study and others I have been routinely using Thymol in both my syrup and pollen substitute.

If anyone would like a pdf copy of the study, PM me and I will email it to you.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary said:


> I suppose my only lingering question now is if Fumigilin-B would be considered an organic treatment method? And how is it stressful on the bees?
> 
> -Nathanael


You will have to look it up in the NOP list of allowed and banned substances. The rules for organic beekeeping are cryptic and hard to find. If you want to advertise your honey as organic, I would contact a certifying agent and ask for clarification/direction. Seems like they should be somewhat cooperative even if you are not looking to get certification in the near future. If you don't want to use organic on the label, I would just do what you think is best for your bees and fits with your management. I go with IPM, and use organic methods whenever I feel like my bees or bank account won't suffer.

I've never seen any scientific evidence that Fumadil/Fumagillian is a hard on bees. Until I see some documented evidence of that, I would call it misinformation. That said, there is no need to overuse any medication as that is simply asking for something to go wrong.

Thymol looks like an promising new concept. Too bad its presently illegal if that makes a difference to you. The US is much slower on approving good meds. for beekeeping.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

nathanael writes:
'm not sure how easy it would be to get my bees tested in this state, We only have one inspector... I'll have to call.

tecumseh writes:
here the state bee lab only test for africanization. they directed me to the usda lab site listed on the other thread.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

34 years of no Fumidil/Fumigillan.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#nosema

I'm not fond of using things that are believed to cause birth defects in my hives. 

Try a search on "teratogen" and "fumidil".


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## beehoppers (Jun 16, 2005)

Thanks Gene Weitzel for that info. Would thymol mite treatment ie Apiguard be effective?


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*Questions*

Is fumidil a different substance than fumigillin? 

Also, it was my understanding that fumigillin breaks down rapidly and does not have harmful effects on bees or people and does not lead to drug-resistant Nosema. Is that right/wrong?

For treating with Thymol in syrup, how do you do it?

How can it be legal to put pure Thymol in the hive to treat for mites but not to put it in syrup to treat for Nosema?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Ccd*

38 BEE CULTURE April 2007
COLONY collapse
disorder (CCd)
Malcolm Sanford
Like so many things there’s good and bad news about
the phenomenon originally called “Fall dwindle disease,”
now renamed “colony collapse disorder,” or CCD. The bad
news is that it appears to be a continuing situation with
little short-term solution in the offi ng. The good news
is that it has caught the attention of the press, and is
responsible for an increased attention about honey bees
and their pollination potential.
In an effort to understand the conditions currently
faced by the industry with reference to CCD, The Foundation
for the Preservation of Honey Bees sponsored a
workshop on the disorder in conjunction with the USDA
Agricultural Research Service’s review of National Program
305, which kicks off a new fi ve-year work cycle.
The bee labs are an integral part of NP305. Though not
formally linked, the fact that these two events occurred
back-to-back at the same location (Suart, Florida) appears
to be fortunate. Industry leaders and USDA researchers
were able to compare notes, and the disorder made the
formal list of things that NP 305, and thus the labs, will
be working on for the next half decade.
A Pennsylvania/Florida beekeeper, David Hackenberg,
is being noted by press releases as most affected
by the phenomenon (Fall dwindle), and in this role has
now been quoted all over the globe, as the story continues
to take on a “life of its own.” Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk
of Bee Alert Technology, Inc. and faculty member at the
University of Montana, laid out the reason for the name
in a posting to the Bee-L Discussion list, February 16,
2007:
“CCD was a name carefully chosen to not imply
anything more than we know. The initial Fall Dwindling
Disease terminology had three problems – our surveys
indicate that the problem was not confi ned to the Fall,
nor was it a dwindle in terms of taking several weeks of
months to play out, and it may or may not be a disease.
CCD means Colony (the effects are at the colony level),
Collapse (sudden, rapid reduction of population sizes
– a couple of weeks, maybe even a couple of days), and
Disorder (since it may or may not be a disease). CCD
may be something new – the nosema seen in Spain, the
neonictotinics (imidacloprid) used in France, a new virus,
a fungus, the result of throwing everything but the
kitchen sink into a hive, etc., or it may be something old
– a variation of mites and PMS (parasitic mite syndrome),
whatever went through colonies in Louisiana and Texas
in the 60s, etc.”1
The Foundation for the Preservation of Honey Bees
is a 501 (c) 3 entity with the mission “to preserve and
protect honey bees to ensure a quality food supply and
environment.”2 Under its objectives are several pertaining
to beekeeping, the reason that it organized the workshop.
Thus, it assembled in Florida a diverse array of
industry leaders, including representatives of the Apiary
Inspectors of America, American Beekeeping Federation,
American Honey Producers Association, land-grant
colleges (Pennsylvania State University, North Carolina
State University), American Association of Professional
Apiculturists, Eastern Apicultural Society, and USDA’s
Agricultural Research Service (Beltsville, MD and other
bee laboratories).
Several affected beekeepers at the meeting, including
Mr. Hackenberg, described a variety of symptoms
characteristic of CCD, but others reported they were not
experiencing more than “normal” colony loss. However,
a few of those not affected have observed colonies of
colleagues collapse quickly for no apparent reason and
remain nervous. One operation lost 800 of its 1400 hives
and another saw 400 colonies reduced to 10 in short
order. Enough beekeepers have been affected, therefore,
that the disorder has resulted in its own research
group. The CCD Working Group consists of a number of
researchers who have agreed to share information, establish
standardized sampling procedures, and develop
other agreements with respect to citing, publishing and
reporting their research. So far, the Group has defi ned
the symptoms of CCD as follows:
1. In collapsed colonies, complete absence of adult
bees with no or little build up of dead bees inside or in
front of hives; capped brood present; honey and bee bread
is not robbed by bees and attack by wax moth and small
hive beetle is noticeably delayed.
2. In actively collapsing colonies, not enough workforce
to maintain brood present; only young adult bees
and queen present, cluster reluctant to consume provided
sugar (carbohydrate) or protein supplement.
Reports from the Working Group at the workshop
consisted of discussions about the historical context
of this kind of phenomenon (disappearing disease), relationship
to other diseases and pests, sampling, virus
and pathogen screening and comb testing. At least one
“organic” beekeeper with new equipment has reported
the disorder, leaving in doubt concerns that pesticides
employed by beekeepers for mite and beetle control are a
cause. Affected colonies also appeared to have passed on
the disorder when stacked on healthy hives, suggesting
that it might be communicable. Although the workshop
produced no concrete recommendations for bee managers
at the present time, it was strongly hinted that prudent
ones not mix affected equipment or hives with healthy
ones until more is known and carefully consider a preven-
April 2007 BEE CULTURE 39
tative feeding program of fumagillin for nosema control.
Perhaps the person who has seen the most colonies
with CCD is Dr. Bromenshenk, quoted elsewhere in this
article, beginning with the Midwest in the Spring of 2006.
He reported it appeared to have spread from there to the
Southeast and then Central states last Summer, and now
is reported in the far West. About 24 states in total have
been affected. A major concern was the status of honey
bee colonies in California almond groves. Another is that
there is simply not enough information for the Working
Group to go by in investigating the situation. To this end
Dr. Bromenshenk’s company, Bee Alert Technology, Inc.,
has mounted a World Wide Web survey to collect data on
the disorder.3 Beekeepers are urged to cooperate in this
survey. The specifi c information they provide will remain
confi dential and will become an important addition to
the studies.
Funding remains an issue. The Florida State Beekeepers
Association ($6,000), Tampa Bay Beekeepers Association
($1,000), Eastern Apicultural Society ($5,000), and
The National Honey Board ($58,000) have all committed to
support this research. A range of estimates determined at
the workshop indicated this course of study might require
up to $500,000. A fi nal concern is the large number of
requests from the press. Again, the publicity could be a
good thing, but beekeepers are urged not to provide “off
the cuff” remarks to reporters. One strategy is to steer
reporters away from the topic and focus on the exciting
life of the honey bee and its historical value to humanity.
There is concern that often the topic of safety of honey in
human nutrition comes up when CCD is discussed. Any
questions about honey quality should be directed to the
National Honey Board.4 Updates about CCD will continue
to be posted at the Mid-Atlantic Apiculture Research and
Education Consortium (MAAREC) Web site.5
Dr. Sanford is a former Extension Specialist in apiculture at
the University of Florida.
References:
1. Bee-L Discussion List Archive, accessed February
23, 2007 http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/
wa?A2=ind0702c&L=bee-l&T=0&P=4806.
2. Foundation for the Preservation of Honey Bees, Inc. Web Site,
accessed February 23, 2007 http://www.honeybeepreservation.
org/
3. Bee Alert Technology, Inc Web Site, accessed February 23,
2007.http://beealert.blackfoot.net/~beealert/surveys/index.
php
4. National Honey Board Web Site, accessed February 23, 2007
http://honey.com/.
5. Mid-Atlantic Apiculture Research and Extension Consortitum
Web Site, accessed February 23, 2007 http://maarec.cas.psu.
edu/index.html.
If your organization is interested in helping fund these studies,
you can make donations to:
1) Project Apis M.
1750 Dayton Road
Chico, CA 95928
Att: CCD Working Group
or
2) Bee Alert Technologies
1620 Roger Street, Suite #1
Missoula, MT 95802
or
3) Maryann Frazier
Att: CCD Working Group
MAAREC
Dept. of Entomology
Penn State University
501 ASI Bldg.
BC University Park, PA 16802


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Fumagilin & Fumagillin*

THIS MAY HELP.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&q=FUMAGILIN

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&q=FUMAGILLIN

Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&q=FUMAGILLIN

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&q=FUMAGILIN&btnG=Search

http://beekeeping.atspace.com/nosema.html

http://www.drugs.com/vet/fumagilin-b-soluble-powder-can.html

Regards,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Winter Losses--back To The Basics*

WINTER LOSSES--BACK TO THE BASICS
There has been a lot of discussion about winter loss last year. Dr. Eric Mussen (quoted in June 1996 issue of The Speedy Bee from his newsletter, From the UC Apiaries, May/June 1996) revealed some "negative results" he found studying amitraz to control tracheal mites. He states: "An overview of all these studies (those conducted by Dr. Mussen and colleagues) suggests very strongly that contact applications of amitraz in hives of bees do not provide adequate control of tracheal mites ...in cool or cold temperate climates." Thus, in spite of other investigations that "paint" amitraz more favorably, he suggests that popular misconceptions about the value of amitraz as a tracheal mite control could in fact be contributing to heavy winter loss. Adding fuel to this fire is the fact that presently NO FORMULATION OF AMITRAZ IS LEGAL TO USE ON HONEY BEES.

How much tracheal mites contribute to winter loss remains an enigma. A. Phibbs ("Three Year Survey of Varroa and Tracheal Mite Infestations of Honey Bees in Wisconsin," American Bee Journal, Vol. 136:8, pp. 789-592) was unable to coorelate tracheal mite frequency and mortality. She concludes, however, that mite parasitism appears to make colonies more vulnerable to other diseases. A spring 1994 survey conducted during the study showed 66 percent of colonies with "signficant" infestations of Nosema apis.

Dr. Tom Webster reported (quoted in the June 1996 issue of The Speedy Bee from Kentucky Bee Line May/June 1996) an average 1995 winter loss of 45 percent by 38 beekeepers. Only three individuals had not used Apistan (R), resulting in 100 percent loss. For tracheal mite control, half used shortening/sugar mixture and got better winter survival than those that did not (see October 1994 APIS). However, those using menthol had the same loss as those not using the product (see November 1988 APIS). But beekeepers using Apistan (R), vegetable shortening and Fumidil-B (R) (for nosema control) lost 19 percent of colonies, while those not using Fumidil-B (R) had 38 percent loss. *According to Dr. Webster's calculations, for a $12 to $15 dollar investment in Fumidil-B (R), about six to eight times as much can be saved. Note: Fumagillin is the active incregedient in Fumidil-B (R) and can at times be found in other products like Nosem-X (R) or Fumagillin-B (R).*
This goes back to some beekeeping basics, as stated by Mr. Glen Stanley, retired Iowa bee inspector, while giving advice on controlling tracheal mites "...why not begin fighting the battle where it would do the most good by getting bees cleared of nosema first." (see July 1994 APIS). The same issue was also raised more recently by Andrew Matheson discussing why beekeepers have so quickly adopted vegetable oil patties for tracheal mite control, yet do not routinely use fumagillin for nosema. (see December 1995 APIS). 

Sincerely, 

Malcolm T. Sanford 
Bldg 970, Box 110620 
University of Florida 
Gainesville, FL 32611-0620
Phone (904) 392-1801, Ext. 143 FAX: 904-392-0190
http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~entweb/apis/apis.htm
INTERNET Address: [email protected]
©1996 M.T. Sanford "All Rights Reserved


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Some Good Reading*

http://www.mdac.state.ms.us/organizations/mshoneybee/Library/Newsletters/02-2007.pdf
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

ndvan writes:
How can it be legal to put pure Thymol in the hive to treat for mites but not to put it in syrup to treat for Nosema?

tecumseh replies:
a product is used in a specific manner (i.e. external application) and tested within a manner described and any use of the product beyond the specific description of use (in this case internal application) is a violation.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

beehoppers said:


> Thanks Gene Weitzel for that info. Would thymol mite treatment ie Apiguard be effective?


I believe that the thymol mite treatment might be minimally helpful since you would in effect be "fumigating" the hive and it may have some effect in inactivating the spores that are on the comb and other hive surfaces. I know of no study in regard to this effect, but it has been used for many years as a fumigant to eradicate/prevent mold buildup in antique books and manuscripts, so it does make some sense that it might help in regard to the spores on hive surfaces. You would still have the problem of the spores in the bees gut continuing to transmit infection since they would not be ingesting the thymol. A combination of Fumidil-B in syrup and thymol mite treatment in theory might be more effective than Fumidil-B alone, again I know of no studies supporting this, so it is pure conjecture on my part.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is fumidil a different substance than fumigillin?

No. One is just a form that is more soluble in water.

>Also, it was my understanding that fumigillin breaks down rapidly

Fairly rapidly, yes.

> and does not have harmful effects on bees

It's a derivative from the fungus that causes stonebrood. But all in all it does not seem to be very harmful to bees.

> or people

If birth defects aren't harmful, I guess not.

> and does not lead to drug-resistant Nosema. Is that right/wrong?

So far Nosema has not developed resistance to fumidil and it has been in use a very long time.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>fumigilin does nothing more than mask the problem, unless you sterize the comb it's a on going war.When you have a out break is just a matter of time.


It buys the hive time, gets them through that last bit of winter, gets them through that cool delayed spring. 
The uses of funigillin show huge advantages to northernly beekeeping operations. So much so that I dont winter prep my hives without it. It saves alot of equipment from being tossed and bring those hives through allowing them to releave the problem themselves.
Funigillin adding stress to the hives? 
Better check that one out again,


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

BEES4U said:


> A spring 1994 survey conducted during the study showed 66 percent of colonies with "signficant" infestations of Nosema apis.
> 
> This goes back to some beekeeping basics, as stated by Mr. Glen Stanley, retired Iowa bee inspector, while giving advice on controlling tracheal mites "...why not begin fighting the battle where it would do the most good by getting bees cleared of nosema first."



I would say, why not begin fighting the battle where it would do most good, BY TAKING A LONG, HARD LOOK AT MODERN BEEKEEPING METHODS.

Bees did well for 100 million years or so. Then along came The Reverend Langstroth with movable frames, followed shortly by the introduction of wax foundation - and they have gone downhill ever since. Discuss.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I make a living off honey production, in an area where bees arnt normally found in the wild. Our winters are harsh and unpredictable. We can successfully manage a hive through a winter, where otherwise a hive doesnt have a long term chance left alone.

If I can manage the bees successfully, and help the bees adapt to the climate, why not use thier potential and produce off a land scape that would make most beekeepers envious?

Its a part of modern day food production.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Ian, what part of Manitoba do you live?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Hey honeyshack, 
Beekeep in southern Manitoba,

got a name?


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Hey Ian

Tammy Solberg is my name. We got into bees to help pay for cattle ranching!LOL
We are working on our third winter with bees. Started with 2 then bought some and went to 16 and then split last year to 32. Some of those 32 probably will not make it this year. It was my first year using mite away 2, and i did not get to feeding untill late in the fall. I have no idea if i can feed sugar syrup at the same time as the varroa treatment. They might be hungry now and there is nothing i can do about it.
We are considering going to top feeders next fall rather than the pails. Then just incase this happens again we can feed later. What is your opinion since you have the harsh MB winters like us. Hives are doubles, wrapped in blocks of 4 and the site has round bales around for a wind break, and bush on the north side.
Have you been in it long?


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

YES! USE FUMIGILIN-B! I HAVE USED IT WITH GREAT RESULTS AND HEALTHY, HEALTHY, HEALTHY BEES. THE STATE INSPECTOR WAS ASTONISHED BY SOME OF MY HIVES AND THE REPORTS SHOWED THEM WITH A COMPLETELY CLEAN BILL OF HEALTH. IT WILL MAKE YOUR HONEY PRODUCTION SKYROCKET!

(the use of caps should hopefully convey how strongly I feel about this)


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I've used it, but stopped years ago, the same time I stopped using Apistan.

- Barry


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{Bees did well for 100 million years or so.}

This is not an accurate comparison because bees prior to langstroth were not kept in populations quantities they are now even in most hobbyists operations. If you're running 10 or 20 hives in a yard your bees are in a proximity for spread of disease, competetion for forage and subject to predation from pests and predators which would have not existed over the past 100 million years. What is happening in modern beekeeping is what's to be expected in every overpopulation of a species in a confined area, disease, starvation, pests and death.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

honeyshack said:


> We are considering going to top feeders next fall rather than the pails. Then just incase this happens again we can feed later. What is your opinion since you have the harsh MB winters like us. Hives are doubles, wrapped in blocks of 4 and the site has round bales around for a wind break, and bush on the north side.
> Have you been in it long?


Feeding late can greatly reduce winter survival. Bees need time to dry the syrup by winter to reduce in hive condensation and early feeding seems to eliminate robbing problems between hives. Here in Manitoba, I like to have the feed on by the end of September. 

Because we have no feral bees in Manitoba, if you are short of time in fall, open feeding gets the job done very quickly. For the last four years I have fed all my hives this way. You have to make sure that that there are no other bees close to yours if you only want to feed your own bees. Rule of thumb I use is no closer than a mile away in cooler weather (under 20 C) or no closer than 2 miles away in warmer weather.

I use one 117 litre rubber maid tote for every nine hives. A fill gives every hive an average of 2 gallons. I fill the tote up with syrup, then add a wooden grid to serve as a float, and then add about 2-3 inches of straw on top of this. These totes have the high lids, so I've drilled 2 inch holes into the lid with a hole saw bit (seven on each side). These lids give great protection from rain. I began open feeding with barrels, but found that I didn't have enough surface area and this resulted in bee drowning.

You can get a lot of hives fed in short order.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian said:


> The uses of funigillin show huge advantages to northernly beekeeping operations. So much so that I dont winter prep my hives without it. It saves alot of equipment from being tossed and bring those hives through allowing them to releave the problem themselves.
> Funigillin adding stress to the hives?
> Better check that one out again,


Ian, I've only treated twice in the last ten years. I've only treated when the nosema test came back high and/or late summer were very wet. Worked for me so far. (Famous last words)

With nosema ceranae in NA, more frequent testing and treatment may be necessary.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

M.Bush Says


> > or people
> 
> If birth defects aren't harmful, I guess not.


So what do you say about organic beekeepers that use Neem Oil? Neem Oil is on your teratogen list as well. 

So is zinc oxide, which has probably saved me from skin cancer a time or two.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Michael Bush's authoritative list also contains such toxic substances as: 

_CORN OIL_ !

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/teratogens.html


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

But I notice that the European Union has not outlawed Corn Oil while they DID outlaw Fumidil.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

CORN OIL !

Meaning HFCS?


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I believe "corn oil," meaning "Mazola" or other similar vegetable oils extracted from corn.

What I'd be really curious about is if/how much difference extists in treating hives with Fumidil-B/fumigilin/etc. when no signs of Nosema are present. Logically, I would suspect that the treatments should help colonies that are afflicted with Nosema, but I wonder whether any difference would appear in hives that would otherwise so no symptoms of Nosema.

I've not treated with Fumidil-B/fumigilin/thymol/etc., and I've yet to have any symptoms of Nosema appear in any of my hives. But I doubt that production in my hives would increase significantly by adding such a treatment at this point.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Allen Martens said:


> Feeding late can greatly reduce winter survival. Bees need time to dry the syrup by winter to reduce in hive condensation and early feeding seems to eliminate robbing problems between hives. Here in Manitoba, I like to have the feed on by the end of September.
> 
> Because we have no feral bees in Manitoba, if you are short of time in fall, open feeding gets the job done very quickly. For the last four years I have fed all my hives this way. You have to make sure that that there are no other bees close to yours if you only want to feed your own bees. Rule of thumb I use is no closer than a mile away in cooler weather (under 20 C) or no closer than 2 miles away in warmer weather.
> 
> ...



A picture is worth a thousand words LOL. My husband would love to see a pic. Makes it easier for him to understand what to make....plese thanks


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Joel, 

I like your analysis of the overpopulation concept. Simple, but historically very true.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

honeyshack said:


> A picture is worth a thousand words LOL. My husband would love to see a pic. Makes it easier for him to understand what to make....plese thanks


I'll try to get some pics and post then on photo gallery in the next couple of days.

If you are going to open feed, make sure livestock doesn't have access to the syrup. To much syrup can be lethal for livestock.


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

All livestock except for bees at least.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

"I am sure glad that all of these threads start out with the proud "No medications, no treatments" gallery.
I am able to keep my "Do not pollinate with" list up to date.
But I'm with Keith. Test." Harry Vanderpool

Harry, a little harsh...believe it or not one of our no treatment clients is splitting before the Almonds ala Kieth Jarret style. He is pulling 8 framers off of fat triples. No acaricide was used and no Fumagillan. He will use antibiotics if necessary and he fed Honey-B-Healthy this fall. I have seen his bees personally and they look great. It was very encouraging to my queens kickin such booty. There will be pics coming soon for our web site.

I am looking forward to the results from Randy Olivers Nosema study. HBH was one of the products being tested. I also think Kieth's comment about sterile combs can not be underestimated, that is part of the reason my friend is having great success.


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## island101 (Apr 26, 2008)

*chemical free bees*

The only way you can tell if your bees have Nosema is to look into the inside of the bee gut with a microscope.

If you detect poop on the outside of the hive, especially during the middle of April, when the dandelion is in bloom and you have concerns with the hive, don't reach for a chemical. Mix a mild herb tea made with chamomile, sage, and a pinch of salt with a small amount of sugar and honey to feed your bees. This will reduce the strain on their metabolism and they will thrive with an adequate supply of their own rightful sustenance, and you will evolve from the degrading role of exploiter to the fulfilling honor of being a steward.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Mix a mild herb tea made with chamomile, sage, and a pinch of salt with a small amount of sugar and honey to feed your bees. This will reduce the strain on their metabolism and they will thrive 

Really now, I didnt realize how easy it was to relieve Nosema from my hives,
In other words, its the dandilion flow that relieves the problem,


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Where is the choice for "I've NEVER used it?"


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## niduoamlro (Jun 3, 2008)

*I wish to receive a pdf copy of the study of the effects of Thymol on Nosema*

Good day to you, Mr Gene Weitzel, 

I wish to receive a pdf copy of the Ege University made in Turkey for three years. Thymol and Fumidil-B were compared for the treatments and control of Nosema Apis (and probably of Nosema ceranae?) .
I am sent on the fields to make a detection of massive loss of bee populations stated AFTER the winter in the beginning of May. These analysis are led by the "Veterinary French Department Service" (Direction départementale des Services Vétérinaires ) in the southern Department of Province Alsace. My work will last until 15th June with the help of co-workers.
On the one hand, analysis of samples are made by french labs on fresh bees, wax, pollen, honey to find either infectious agents or pesticids.
On the other hand, analysis are made on plants of the surroundings (mainly corn ) by the "Protection Service of the Plants".
The prospecting Zones are within a radius of 2,5 km around the focus.

Thanking you in advance for the sending of that Ege University report, I give you my e-mail address:
[email protected] .........Louis-Remi OUDIN ............(niduoamlro)..............11 rue Bellevue ..............68170 RIXHEIM...............France...................................................................................


Gene Weitzel said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have done a fair bit of searching on treatments for Nosema, I came across a 3-year study done at Ege University in Turkey in 2002. They compared the effectiveness of Fumidil-B and Thymol. To summarize the results:
> 
> ...


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## rjzens (Jul 21, 2009)

*Re: Thymol better than Fumidil-B*

gene said---> _"In light of this study and others I have been routinely using Thymol in both my syrup and pollen substitute.

If anyone would like a pdf copy of the study, PM me and I will email it to you." _


gene, could you email me a copy of that thymol study? was it pretty thorough? i don't know what PM is. my email is [email protected]


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## smith (Mar 7, 2009)

Quite simply: I never had success overwintering colonies until I started using Fumigilin.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

This is an interesting thread to read a year and a half after it started. I'm surprised that folks are so defensive of their use of chemicals and feel like those that don't use them are sort of picking on them.

I used to use everything (apistan, terramycin, fumidil-B) years ago because I was told that if it didn't, my bees would die. So there I was on the treadmill spending money every year to treat my hives and I had no idea that I really needed to be doing this. It was costing me money and putting money in the pockets of the drug salesmen. We're really just bee farmers and it seems to me whether you're raising cattle, goats, sheep, chickens or whatever else you may have, the agricultural industry has plenty of drugs, amendments and equipment that you're supposed to buy. If you don't there's a pernicious attitude that your livestock will die and that you may be causing others peoples livestock to die or at the very least, get sick.

I know many farmers who are spending serious cash on drugs and amendments, driving new tractors and pickups yet losing money every year. Meanwhile the agribusiness folks are doing just fine, getting rich. I also know a few farmers who are making plenty of money yet they still don't have a new tractor or pickup, don't medicate unless absolutely necessary and use sparing amounts of amendments. That's how I'd prefer to farm. I certainly see no future in medicating for illness that isn't there.

I've stopped medicating as a matter of course and yes, I've lost some hives. the hives that survived have thrived and now I don't need to medicate. It's my opinion that giving your livestock a crutch is not wise. It just creates more livestock that need a crutch. Throw away the crutches and run.


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