# when to super?



## ajs32 (Apr 27, 2009)

i am in chemung county in upstate ny, my bees are second year survivors, and are in the top box, numbers seem to be starting to increase, a few weeks away from dandelions coming on, so for other beeks in my area when do you start to put supers on in the spring?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

when the top super is 70 percent full, this is normal conditions, if you have a short intense flow you might have to stack supers 20 feet high like the Canadians, 12 deeps working from a ladder, crazy people!


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## Ruben (Feb 11, 2006)

What he said, I will only add that if you are going to be very busy and not be able to check in on them maybe stick one on a little sooner as I have seen them fill frames faster than I thought they would and I was busy and did not get one on in time and once they decide to swarm then they will swarm.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

earlier is better than too late.


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## bigbore (Feb 25, 2008)

ok, but when would you put on your first? that is the question I got from his post.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

hmmm You're in New York state, and your bees are in the top box? Are you running two deep brood boxes? any other supers already on? I'm assuming two deep brood boxes - are there bees and brood in the bottom box as well, or is that one empty? If empty, REVERSE. What is the status of their honey stores? You may need to feed at this time of the year. I imagine your season is about 2 to three weeks behind me here in SE Missouri. Thus my suggestion:
Check the status of ALL the boxes on the hive. Put brood boxes on bottom, empty boxes on top, and seriously consider feeding, to prevent starvation. You may not need to feed if they're heavy on stores. But... not enough information yet. Then as the bees have filled up the bottom box, and are working all but a couple of frames in the top box, start adding supers. 
Regards,
Steven


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

S G's recommendation is sound. If I may expand on it some:
Your first priority is to keep them alive untill field forage is available. Worry about supering later. Check honey reserves now. Rearing brood uses honey at a brisk rate. Don't know what early sources you have that precede dandelion, but early sources are typically iffy - influenced by flying weather access and/or Vegetation slow-down. If you don't have a couple deep frames of honey in the top box, prepare to feed immediatly above the cluster. If the colony has left some honey below in the outsides of the bottom box, you can reverse now and add that lower honey over the cluster, where they can use it. Otherwise, hold off on reversal to maintain proximity between the cluster and the feed source.

Note that the colony will typically not expand brood into a raised empty (reversed) untill field nectar is collectable. They have this hang-up about wanting to consume honey/nectar from the cells for expansion of the brood nest. But they also have a hang-up about empty cells within the cluster - those are filled with nectar on a priorty basis. If the cluster enfolds the empty cells, they are filled promptly, and brood seems to jump into the raised empty. But feild nectar must be accessible, to make it happen.

Back to the original question on supering:
First, calander timing is less significant than colony status - strength. If you have sustained them to two deeps of bees, you are late. We need to branch here to what you are supering with. We'll talk about foundation, since a second year colony may not have generated any drawn comb to work with. 2nd year colonies have the capability to generate early wax making in the buildup if they perceive that establishment was not accomplished in the first year. The trick is to get their attention. Add a super of F at the time of the first reversal. The excess population spilling over into the box of foundation may do the trick. Maybe not - then they are likely to swarm. Swarm prevention, supering with F is very iffy. You can let them swarm or resort to some of the more complex brood nest disturbance procedures. Another option is periodic reversal at two week intervals until "main flow" but that has problems of its own.

If you have drawn comb to work with, its done with the same stage of colony development. At the first reversal, add a super of drawn comb above. As they build population through the raised deep, the super of comb above is automatically enfolded in the cluster. The need to fill that comb inside the cluster kicks in, and they are off and running on overhead nectar storage. Keep them in empty comb above and watch what happens. The odds are good that they forget about swarming, and store more honey than expected.

When "new wax" starts at the beginning of the "main flow" you can use F.
Walt


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## Naturegoods (Mar 12, 2010)

All beekeeping is local. This morning in Chemung County NY it is 15 degrees with Thursday nights snowfall still on the hilltops. My girls remain undisturbed on my piece of hilltop except for addition of feeder and cleaned the winter killed bees from the lower super and bb.
Bee sure to record weather conditions and nectar flows on you personal calender for use next year when you're thinking of spliting and supering.

I've kept bees since 1994 but only been on this site for a few weeks. 'Kept bees' does not include having to buy fresh ones every spring. My observation is that this site seems to be both a wealth of information - as well as a wealth of mis-information from people too far away with more time on line than in the hives. I only hope that my beek decisions are not adversly affected by some of the stuff read here.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>If the colony has left some honey below in the outsides of the bottom box, you can >>reverse now 

No, don't reverse now. Way too early in Elmira, NY State. I've kept bees in NY State...Clinton Co. for 30+ years. I reverse my hives every year, and believe it...it's way too early!


>>First, calander timing is less significant than colony status - strength. If you have >>sustained them to two deeps of bees, you are late. 

Late?? I don't think so. We've only had a vewry few days of pollen. That's much earlier than normal by a couple weeks. Last night was 8* F. Good luck if you had already reversed.

>>The trick is to get their attention. Add a super of F at the time of the first reversal.

Reversing and adding foundation in March?? You're kidding. Good way to lose the foundation, puting it on before a good nectar flow. The bees will chew the wax right off the wires.

>>Another option is periodic reversal at two week intervals until "main flow" but that has >>problems of its own.

Reversing every two weeks from now until main flow?? Stop and think! You're in New York State in March. 

>>At the first reversal, add a super of drawn comb above. 

Reverse AND super in March? Why? Not a good idea in Elmira, NY. 

>>The odds are good that they forget about swarming, and store more honey than expected.

Odds like what? 60/40? 80/20? And what do you do with the colonies that persist? And I thought that your CB scheme led to no swarming. You mean you still have swarming?

AJS32, try it this way...

You might be a couple weeks ahead of me in the Champlain Valley. Plan your bee work around flows not calendar. Depending on how strong the colony is, and how big your broodnest is, you'll need to do something before you see the first dandelion blossom. 

Although I keep hearing horror stories about the bee losses in the Northeast this winter, the bees are actually in great shape for March. I've talked to experienced beekeepers across NY and New England. All say the same thing...large clusters, brood, and getting light on feed. So, the season might get going a bit early this year. 

I usually add a super (two actually) just when I see the first dandelion blossom. Your cluster is in the top box. Adding a super of comb will be just like reversing...and same results as CBing without the added intrusion. The bees will move up having a place for overhead nectar storage. The queen will move up if she wants, giving her empty comb to lay in. This super(s) will take off the pressure of early nectar. 

When the dandelion flow starts, then reverse. Add another super if they are working well in the first added. By this time westher is more settled. The colony will be stronger, and brood won't get chilled as would happen if you reverse in NYS in March or early April. 

It seems to me that no matter what management you follow...supering, CBing, reversing, reversing and supering, some colonies will persist in their swarming preparations. Remember that swarming is one method of requeening that bees employ. By the management I propose, you will give added comb space above active cluster twice...once by supering and once by reversing. This will discourage many colonies in their swarming, but not all. By waiting until the early dandelion flow to do the reversing, those that desire to persist in their swarming preparations can be identified and managed accordingly.

To just reverse or CB and call the job done is ostrich beekeeping. You need to take a more active approach. Your bees in NY are going to swarm about dandelion time. Manage them for that.


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## ajs32 (Apr 27, 2009)

thanks for the input guys...spring mngmnt in my area was pretty much what i was looking for so this was very helpful


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Michael and Naturegoods, of course I defer to your wisdom re: timing in NY state... that only makes sense. The crucial fact is to pay attention to the climate, and not the calendar, as you point out.

Now, if we pay attention to climate, and his bees are in the top box, and assuming the bottom box is empty of bees and stores, are his bees in danger of starvation? If he adds an empty super as suggested, to minimize disruption of brood nest, (which makes sense) etc... should he not also add syrup or some form of feed? Syrup I've added to my hives in the last two weeks is currently being used to make bees, and is also being stored in comb above the brood nest. I fully expect the bees and queen to move up as they consume those stores and the cluster and brood nest expands as winter and cold rainy weather gives way to spring. That is what has happened in the past. As I read his post, seemed to me he's running the risk of starvation. 

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to be combative, just trying to help our discussion as we focus on climate and vegetation. And thus it seems like what we're discussing here is applicable to many locales. And many beeks in a situation similar to his.
Regards,
Steven


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

StevenG said:


> As I read his post, seemed to me he's running the risk of starvation.


As I said, March is way too early to reverse or super. I agree that at this time of year, they should be watched closely and fed if necessary. Good chance there's already brood. There certainly is here. I'm feeding. Have 2 yards that were near starvation, but the rest are just light...fed out 4 bbls to 700. 

I expect to super the first week of May this year unless the weather changes much colder. My dandelions are usually blooming by the 10th. When in Elmira? The 1st? So you might super the last week of April and reverse when the dandelion flow starts.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

:lpf: Don't you just love it! You measure syrup in bbls, I in 5-gallon totes! 
Dandelions here popped open earlier this week. I returned home from Texas on Wednesday to Bradford pears blooming, forsythia blooming, and dandelions. Redbuds not yet, getting closer. Dogwoods next month. If the weather would cooperate, they'd get more forage. We still have a danger of a late freeze.
Regards,
Steven


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Mike:
This thread is concluded by the originator, but I think it's time to respond to your constant needling of anything I have say. As you know, I take no pleasure in disagreements in opinion and generally abstain. But you persist. I have no animosity toward you or your opinions - everyone is entitled to their own. Actually, am glad to see you back on the job as the voice of the northern perspective.

Concessions first:
Re periodic reversal:
Left out some pertinent info on the timing. That approach is normally done when the colony has two full boxes of bees, brood, and stores. That would normally occur in the swarm prep period, and would only be done 2 or 3 times. Certainly didn't mean to start now.

Re use of F wax for other purposes:
Have only seen a couple cases of that in 20 years. Very rare. You imply that it's automatic. Is it really?? Locally, our bees store a reserve of wax during the active season for use during late winter period when they don't have wax-making capability. Their wax reserve is stored as burr or bridging in the brood nest area. It's a reserve that hasn't been fully treated in my published stuff.
If your bees automatically chew up F wax in the winter/spring season, that may be a real regional difference that we need to know.

My post was oriented to first things first. Get the colony up to strength before worrying about supering. Raising honey from below to overhead was intended to be a stopgap measure to avoid starvation. That might delay or obviate the need to feed.

Rebuttal:
"Way too early for reversal" I can undestand that the consequences of separating the brood nest at this tme in the season in NY would be problematic. In the circumstances cited, that is, brood and bees in the top box, Where is the problem? " Believe me" sounds more like an unfounded opinion than a reason. Give us a reason applicable to the situation. You say that reversal of an empty and adding a super of drawn comb are similar in effect. So, while you're at it, explain why one is better than the other. Don't spare the details. We're all learning from this and I'm a dumb southerner.

Checkerboarding swarm prevention reliabity:
On another thread you said we all have swarming "no matter what they do or say." Here, you call it "ostritch beekeeping." I tire of holding back in the interest of avoiding a protracted flap where there are no winners. For the record, I have had 2 swarms in ten years. In both cases, didn't follow my own recommendations. Try to let this penetrate. CB can be 100% effective when the regimen is followed. Have several years of 100% with 20 test colonies. Granted, that is a limited sample compared to your 700, and somewhere in the 700 are likely units that will not respond like most.

If you are able to spot those that need swarm control where swarm prevention failed, you must be checking for swarm cells. I gave that up in the first year of CB. Fractured too many supersedure cells. I can tell when CB is working from the top. Increasing overhead storage of nectar is all I need to see. Would that, or could that, be used in your operation?

If I can stop swarming in this area of excellent conditions, anybody, anywhere, can.

Walt


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Walt,

Please, you are not a dumb southerner. You are passionate about beekeeping in a manner that invokes some thinking. Personally, I find it refreshing. You’ve helped me learn why bees do some of the things they do, and I thank you and many other “dummies” for that. Whether you’re right or wrong in your opinions and recommendations, I don’t feel you deserve the hostile persecution I’ve seen posted, especially when many seem to be the result of sentences taken out of context. You handle the rebuttals like a true gentleman, something more of us could learn to be better at. Please keep teaching us.

A dumber northerner,
Steve


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## Oberlinmom (Mar 11, 2009)

As a new beek I enjoy the give and take. I've heard debates at every beekeeper meeting, web site and convention. Everyone has the "best" or "right" way to do this and none of them are the same. I think it's great to see various opinions of why and why not to do anything. 
I got a great kick out of hearing one trainer say "Never add anything to your hive, if you need to aid your hive to survive you're just nurturing a weak hive". I walked from that class to the next where that trainer espoused treating for everything before it happened as a safety precaution.
I don't look at these various opinions as derogatory just different views that work for those beeks. My last local meeting one woman was telling a new class to check the hives and reverse if the bottom was completely empty to get ready for the pollen and nectar coming in from the trees. I reversed, my bottom deeps were dry. I started feeding. This past week a gentleman spoke and said a second year hive (mine) shouldn't need any syrup, don't feed. Oh and wait to reverse. Same group, same weather, I bet I could ask more people in the club and have even more opinions. Some times I pick the right stuff, sometimes....did I reverse too soon? I pick the wrong. So far the bees are surviving all my mess ups. 
Don't stop arguing gents I love the information and it gives me ideas for next time! :applause:


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## bigbore (Feb 25, 2008)

I have always felt that 10 beekeepers will give you 11 answers to the same question. What is right?? you just try what seems best for the situation you are in, I don't want to argue with anyone, but I think that everyone is right and everyone is wrong all the time. just gotta try something that seems reasonable to me.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> >>
> 
> Although I keep hearing horror stories about the bee losses in the Northeast this winter, the bees are actually in great shape for March. I've talked to experienced beekeepers across NY and New England. All say the same thing...large clusters, brood, and getting light on feed. So, the season might get going a bit early this year.


i think we are seeing that down here- started about 3 weeks ago or so. it sure seems like the ones that survived are huge and building up super fast. 
Any theories why the season is starting early? 
we had more moisture and more cold than normal down this way.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

winevines said:


> Any theories why the season is starting early?


I think it started last Fall. The bees raised a late round of brood, and the colonies went into winter with large populations. Our winter was mild. So, the clusters wintered intact. I would say that due to large clusters and mild temperatures, the bees began raising brood early here...all thi contributes to large hungry clusters.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>Mike:
This thread is concluded by the originator, but I think it's time to respond to your constant needling of anything I have say. As you know, I take no pleasure in disagreements in opinion and generally abstain. But you persist. I have no animosity toward you or your opinions - everyone is entitled to their own. Actually, am glad to see you back on the job as the voice of the northern perspective.


I'm not needling you Walt. I'm disagreeing with you. I'll not say anything about your methods when it comes to keeping bees in Tennessee or that kind of climate. When it comes to beekeeping in a northerly location like Vermont, or Elmira NY, I will. From your posts., what you know about northern beekeeping is hearsay, ie. needing to know if foundation chewing is a regional difference. OK fine. I don't know about the timing in Tenn. But I do in NY and VT. 



>Concessions first:
Re periodic reversal:
Left out some pertinent info on the timing. That approach is normally done when the colony has two full boxes of bees, brood, and stores. That would normally occur in the swarm prep period, and would only be done 2 or 3 times. Certainly didn't mean to start now.


Unfortunately, from your post, it seemed to me as if you were advising to reverse now if the colony had expanded into 2 boxes or had some honey down below. Walt, our bees are just coming out of winter here. The temps are still in the teens and single digits at night. I have bees that are in 3 boxes...many of them are this year. I would never reverse them this early. That's my main objection. And second objection is the 2-3 times reversing. You don't know northern flows.

Swarm prevention is accomplished by adquate overhead nectar storage. We both agree. Where we differ is I don't think there is a need for overhead nectar storage space until there is adequate nectar available. Our bees are now in the top box. Strong colonies have 1.5-3 boxes of bees. Even the strongest won't start cells on the tree blooms. A very few will start just before Dandelion, but most need a nectar flow that is much greater than colony needs. Here that most often comes from Dandelion, but rarely a bit sooner. So, keeping that timing in mind, I super just before that nectar. Gives the bees a place for overhead storage. Walt, our bees are in the top box. No overhead honey dome. Just what should I CB? The top of the broodnest. CB brood? 

Early supering relieves the pressure for needed nectar storage overhead. As you said in December, it isn't permanent. That super (2 mediums actually in my case) will become filled with nectar, and create that dome you speak of, or cavity limit that I mention. That's when I reverse. By reversal ON the Dandelion bloom, you are again creating space overhead. More supers are added at this time. So, lots of empty comb space above the active cluster by reversian and nectar storage by managing supers correctly.

Now, why not just reverse early. Because the cluster moves up into empty combs, queen establishes broodnest there. When nectar comes in they are right back to the same place...cluster in top, incoming nectar, reach cavity limit...start swarm preps. Early reversal proponents advise multiple reversals about 10 days apart. I'm sure. The first was performed too early in the season and they don't understand the reason for reversing and it's relation to nectar flows.

>>Re use of F wax for other purposes:
Have only seen a couple cases of that in 20 years. Very rare. You imply that it's automatic. Is it really?? Locally, our bees store a reserve of wax during the active season for use during late winter period when they don't have wax-making capability. Their wax reserve is stored as burr or bridging in the brood nest area. It's a reserve that hasn't been fully treated in my published stuff.
If your bees automatically chew up F wax in the winter/spring season, that may be a real regional difference that we need to know.

It is here. If you add foundation before there's a good flow, the bees will chew the wax off the wires. We just don't have a strong flow until mid-Dandelion bloom. Then it's safe to add foundation.

>>My post was oriented to first things first. Get the colony up to strength before worrying about supering. Raising honey from below to overhead was intended to be a stopgap measure to avoid starvation. That might delay or obviate the need to feed.

Yes, that is the main goal. Reversing up that honey isn't the correct thing to do in the middle of March. Leave the bees alone at that time of the year in the North. If they need feeding, then feed. Many days now they are still in a winter cluster. Reversing the cluster to the bottom of the hive in those conditions is working against the bees wishes and nature to be in the top box at this time of year. See Walt, I don't believe in the swarm prep theory that says bees start swarm preps on the tree bloom. At least not here. Bees react to stimulae. We don't have a honey dome here, as you call it. So, I'll call it cavity limit. That cavity limit can be reached in any size hive at any time of the year that there is a flow on. If the broodnest is too small, or there aren't enough supers on that limit is reached. Yes, when there is nowhere else to put nectar, it goes in the broodnest. That's the trigger for swarming. Have space above for nectar storage...supering, CBing, reversing...and swarming is greatly reduced or delayed. Reversing here before that nectar flow is a waste of time and too invasive to the bees. 

>>Rebuttal:
"Way too early for reversal" I can undestand that the consequences of separating the brood nest at this tme in the season in NY would be problematic. In the circumstances cited, that is, brood and bees in the top box, Where is the problem? " Believe me" sounds more like an unfounded opinion than a reason. Give us a reason applicable to the situation. You say that reversal of an empty and adding a super of drawn comb are similar in effect. So, while you're at it, explain why one is better than the other. Don't spare the details. We're all learning from this and I'm a dumb southerner.

" Believe me" sounds more like an unfounded opinion than a reason." Walt, your pov is totally full of unfounded opinion. You even say that all this new knowledge you have is unsupported by science. Is that not unfounded opinion? I'm trying my best to explain my methods. You want me to explain everything and "spare no details," yet most of your explanations are opinions. 

I've been asked to add to BS, POV. My POV is contained in my posts in these pages. I don't mind questions and I don't mind challenges. Go ahead and question my methods. We all learn that way. I promise I won't answer your questions with more questions.


>>Checkerboarding swarm prevention reliabity:
On another thread you said we all have swarming "no matter what they do or say." Here, you call it "ostritch beekeeping." I tire of holding back in the interest of avoiding a protracted flap where there are no winners. For the record, I have had 2 swarms in ten years. In both cases, didn't follow my own recommendations. Try to let this penetrate. CB can be 100% effective when the regimen is followed. Have several years of 100% with 20 test colonies. Granted, that is a limited sample compared to your 700, and somewhere in the 700 are likely units that will not respond like most.


Yes, and if some in 700 then some in 20. All colonies act and react differently. None are the same. So, performing one manipulation on many colonies and walking away is what I call ostrich. Even after colony swarm prevention measures are taken, the colonies have to be checked periodically. 

>>If you are able to spot those that need swarm control where swarm prevention failed, you must be checking for swarm cells. I gave that up in the first year of CB. Fractured too many supersedure cells. I can tell when CB is working from the top. Increasing overhead storage of nectar is all I need to see. Would that, or could that, be used in your operation?

I don't care if I fracture supercedure cells. There are always some more up inside the broodnest. I see colonies swarm that are filling supers well. Couldn't tell that from the top. I've seen colonies swarm when their supers are empty. Can't tell that from the top. I'm a more pro-active beekeeper. I like to look at my bees from the bottom up, not the top down. 

>>If I can stop swarming in this area of excellent conditions, anybody, anywhere, can.

Truly, but maybe not by your methods everywhere. One size does not fit all.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Mike:
Now, we're getting somewhere. We both have the same objectives of informing the beginners and promoting real world beekeeping, and you can see why I wanted to meet with you on your turf to understand your perspective. I live in a climate that is much like central Europe, and you are successful in a climate that is at the fringe area of their natural range.
It's not a surprise that differences exist. 

I don't believe that the basic survival traits change with location. Regionalism is impacted only to the extent that the colony has to react to availability of field forage and longer winters at the place they find themselves. And they are good at adapting to those conditions, whatever they are. I get the same reactions from all races of European bees - including Brother Adams"s deliberate mongrels. Apparently, as the bees expanded their range into Europe, the basic survival format preceeded their adaptation to the various regions that we label as races.

As an example of how that affects our interpretation of what we see, consider your statement that the colony wants to be in the top of the hive in late winter. I see that as caused by circumstance, and not desirable at all - exposes them to starvation. Not to quibble over - just a difference of interpretation.

I am inclined to yeild to your perspective as it is described above. You are correct in saying that my observations are questionable, or opinions. Those conclusions are not inviolate. Someone else with the same observations could draw different conclusions. However, the conclusions are not based on a single observation, but several observations pointing to the same conclusion.

Can we bury the hatchet?? Beekeeping will be better off for it.
Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> As an example of how that affects our interpretation of what we see, consider your statement that the colony wants to be in the top of the hive in late winter. I see that as caused by circumstance, and not desirable at all - exposes them to starvation. Not to quibble over - just a difference of interpretation.
> 
> 
> Can we bury the hatchet?? Beekeeping will be better off for it.
> Walt


I'm not a hatchet man Walt, and I think beekeeping will be better off with all the cards on the table.

Allow me to respond to your parting shot.
You say that my bees being located in the top box is not desireable and exposes them to starvation. Well, what would you have me do? It's they not me who desires to be in the top box come late winter. "Bees make better beekeepers than beekeepers make bees," so I say work with them and imitate their plan.

So, I weigh every colony in September/October. Each gets fed the proper amount of syrup, if needed, to get them through the winter until they can be checked in March/April. At that point, March, all colonies are in the top of the hive. I suppose I could feed them so much in the Fall that there would be a dome of feed above, but I don't really see the point.

You ask for details...

Of the 760 colonies I took into winter this year, about 44 were dead, and 19 were weak come spring. Of the nearly 700 remaining, I had to feed 177. Of the dead colonies, 9 starved. 

So, 25% of surviving colonies had to be fed, while 1% of initial Fall count starved.

I don't consider either number to be a problem. I don't consider that 1% starvation means that I..or better said, my bees...have got it all wrong.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

What I love about America and democracy is everybody can voice their opinion and anyone who can write can be heard. However, not all opinions have equal value. Experience is a very harsh teacher and I tend to listen to people who have survived her lessons, like Mike Palmer. If I found myself disagreeing with him, I would question myself, not him. 

An example: who would you prefer as a mechanic to work on your car? Someone who had worked on cars for 30 years, studied with experts, keeps up to date on all the latest information, has receipts from thousands of customers, etc. OR -- some self taught mechanic who thinks everybody else is wrong, that they know more than anyone, and to prove it they have worked on 20 cars and all of them are still running. Or so they say.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Timing is everything as long as everything times out the way you thought it would.

I did notice that hard mast (acorns) fell early last summer in Delaware county, N.Y. .

Since we are in an El Nino year, might things time out alot earlier for beekeepers as well?

Especially in parts of NY state?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

WLC said:


> Since we are in an El Nino year, might things time out alot earlier for beekeepers as well?
> 
> Especially in parts of NY state?


Yes, well, I would play it on the safe side. Assume that we have a lot more bad weather ahead of us. As Eliot said, April is the cruelest month.


> APRIL is the cruellest month, breeding
> Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
> Memory and desire, stirring
> Dull roots with spring rain.


T.S. Eliot (1888–1965). The Waste Land. 1922.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

For me, the only really bad time to super, is after the honey flow has ended.

A little more than a decade ago, I neglected my apiary, nearly completely. Some hives had nice stacks of four or more supers, others had one or two, a few had only their brood supers (even then all supers were medium depth, but also 10-frame). They all managed to fill the supers they had - I'm sure that the neglect they experienced was not something they noticed. I do remember that they swarmed much more regularly than they have since I began giving them more attention. This season I am going to try providing them with more supers than they can fill during the honey flow - I am very curious to see how that works out. I am also planning to extract as soon as I have enough finished supers to fill the extractor my friend has offered to let me use. It has been sad to see my strongest hives suddenly stop working the flow, because they no longer have empty supers to work in.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm a Frost and T.S. Elliot fan from way back. Do you wear the bottoms of your trousers rolled? 

Let's just go over the outcomes:

Don't super, and they swarm, setback a month (a guess).

Super, and the brood get chilled, setback less than a month (another guess).

Super, and things go well, you gain a few weeks, or more, production during an El Nino year (ditto).

Maybe a compromise would be to split the difference on the advanced schedule by a week or two (instead of a month ahead)?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

WLC said:


> Do you wear the bottoms of your trousers rolled?


No but I do wear them too long and they tend to get the bottoms shredded. (You know the look)

But you're wrong about supering (sorry). The time to super will be different fro each year and different for each hive. Supering is the beekeeper's response to the _actual_ internal and external conditions of the hive. Supering is a response to the beekkpeeper's _anticipation_ of the colonies' need for additional space.

Merely supering up is not an antidote for swarming, by the way. There's a lot more to it than that. In San Diego I had very little bother with swarming whereas in Upstate NY it can be a real problem _some years_. The best plan is to pull a few frames of brood and bees out of the colony in late April or early May.

This can be used to boost lagging colonies, or start new colonies. If you don't want to do either, you can pile it above an excluder where it will hatch out and merge back with the colony below (Demaree method). The idea is to relieve congestion in the brood nest. 

By the way, I am totally opposed to any checkerboarding or other radical disruption of the organization of the nest.. Brood frames should be kept close together and only an experienced beekeeper will know when it is OK to stick empty comb into the middle of the brood area.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> ...
> So, I weigh every colony in September/October. Each gets fed the proper amount of syrup, if needed, to get them through the winter until they can be checked in March/April. At that point, March, all colonies are in the top of the hive. I suppose I could feed them so much in the Fall that there would be a dome of feed above, but I don't really see the point.
> ...
> .


Michael,

I am currious as to what you would consider an adequate weight for two deeps in September/October, and in March/April. 

Thanks,

Ken


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/30day/off14_temp.gif

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/30day/off14_prcp.gif

Maybe looking at the above NOAA products might be helpful in making a decision.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

c10250 said:


> Michael,
> 
> I am currious as to what you would consider an adequate weight for two deeps in September/October, and in March/April.
> 
> ...


My colonies are mostly 2 deeps and a medium. I find a weight of 155-160 to be adequate for the bees to get through the winter. Some years some will need additional feeding by mid-March but most years they are fine until April.

2 deeps, a bottom, and an inner cover with bees and no honey weight about 70 lbs. Add to that the amount of honey you feel they need to winter. Add that and that is your initial target weight. Adjust for a few years until you get it right.

I don't weigh them in the spring. Lifting and visual check is close enough.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> You say that my bees being located in the top box is not desireable and exposes them to starvation. Well, what would you have me do? It's they not me who desires to be in the top box come late winter. "Bees make better beekeepers than beekeepers make bees," so I say work with them and imitate their plan.


That was a question Walt. 

My bees don't have a honey dome in the spring. They're in the top box. Always have been unless they are weak or I left way too much honey on. Again...what would you have me do? Fight what the bees do here naturaly? Checkerboard brood? Run colonies with small clusters that don't amount to beans?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Mike:
Sorry, didn't recognize it as a question. Thought we had already established in earlier discussion that CB is to break up the reserve honey overhead that is almost a given in most parts of the country. If you can't CB without broodnest disturbance, find another way. You have done that, but apparently it not as reliable as CB.

Not relevant, but I saw your article on nucing. Well done, but perhaps you would rather not be congratulated from someone you consider an adversary.

When I said that I yeilded, I meant that I would not push my opinions on you any further. Still have a question about fall prep for wintering to get the whole picture. Assuming your fall flow is as good as most northern areas, you must harvest in the fall. Can you give me a general timeline as to the relationship between harvest and your fall feeding?

Thanks, Walt


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Peter:
I find it interesting that you are "totally opposed" to CB and you don't have the foggiest notion what it is. Is that what it takes in your circles to be considered an expert??

Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>Mike:
Sorry, didn't recognize it as a question. Thought we had already established in earlier discussion that CB is to break up the reserve honey overhead that is almost a given in most parts of the country. If you can't CB without broodnest disturbance, find another way. You have done that, but apparently it not as reliable as CB.

Not as reliable??

>Not relevant, but I saw your article on nucing. Well done, but perhaps you would rather not be congratulated from someone you consider an adversary.

Thank youy Walt, and I don't consider you an adversary. We see some things differently, keep bees in what are apparently very different conditions, and only want to propose alternative methods for folks that don't keep their bees in a Tennessee like climate.

>>When I said that I yeilded, I meant that I would not push my opinions on you any further. Still have a question about fall prep for wintering to get the whole picture. Assuming your fall flow is as good as most northern areas, you must harvest in the fall. Can you give me a general timeline as to the relationship between harvest and your fall feeding?


Here, the main flow is pretty well done by July 15. Not long after that starts the Purple Loosestrife flow if in a Loosestrife area. Otherwise it's Goldenrod by August 15. 

I try to remove the main crop honey before Goldenrod starts. The GR flow can yield 50-60 pounds. With that possibility in mind, I try to plan my supering. When the main crop is removed, the broodnest is looked at...from the top. If the colony is heavy and I see only honey up top, they are already approaching winter weight, I add a super or two. If I see only brood and black empty brood comb, I don't super. The Goldenrod flow goes into the broodnest for winter stores. So, it's a colony by colony decision. I try not to feed if possible. 

The GR flow is finished by mid-September. At that point, feeding should start. Hives are weighed and fed accordingly, to reach target weight. Feeding has to be finished by the middle of October so feed is ripened, stored, and capped as much as possible. I think one big fault of many beekeepers is feeding too late in the fall resulting in unripened feed and moisture problems in the winter...and crazy band-aid fixes like mountaincamp method to control moisture.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

wcubed said:


> Peter:
> I find it interesting that you are "totally opposed" to CB and you don't have the foggiest notion what it is. Is that what it takes in your circles to be considered an expert??
> 
> Walt



Walt, 
You are right. I didn't have the foggiest notion what CB was and I confused it with the idiotic practice of breaking up the brood nest. My mistake. I don't know everything. 

By the way, I like to think I understand honey bees pretty well, but maybe I am not all that familiar with the various nutty practices beekeepers have dreamt up to outwit bees.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Dear Walt
I have now familiarized myself with your technique of checkerboarding supers. I had not realized that it was a particular style unique to yourself that you were referring to. I hope I didn't offend you by sniping at your pet project.

The practice of breaking up hive organization is not new, and can be traced through such luminaries as Aspinwall and the more recent No Swarm Cluster frames. 

I view such practices as disruptive, and do not view beekeeping as the study of how to outwit honey bees, but rather a practice of making hives as comfortable and successful as possible, knowing that their success leads to my success.

I try to know a little about non-mainstream theories but there are so many it's hard to keep up.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Mike:
That sounds to my untrained ear like a very efficient and well-thought-out approach. I havn't learned to enjoy feeding either. Perhaps I should have explained why I asked, and we could have avoided a follow-up question. The status of the medium at the top,when it exists, is important. Is it harvested in the summer, left in place, or flexible with colony condition?

An under-publicised characteristic of our bees is that they regulate population to be in proportion to their comb in use. They seem to perceive the top of their honey as the top of their cavity. (True in the tree hollow)
More honey overhead results in a larger wintering cluster size. The larger cluster is an advantage in that they can tolerate more loss of old fall bees and maintain a viable cluster for starting late winter brood. The disadvantage is use of more honey to warm the cluster to the larger volume. They have several generations over eons to refine this characteristic to a fine art where is comes out right to support repro swarming. Am aware that I didn't need to point this out to you, but others might be interested.

Have to branch now. Have an appointment with my shade tree mechanic.

Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>Mike:
That sounds to my untrained ear like a very efficient and well-thought-out approach. I havn't learned to enjoy feeding either. Perhaps I should have explained why I asked, and we could have avoided a follow-up question. The status of the medium at the top,when it exists, is important. Is it harvested in the summer, left in place, or flexible with colony condition?

No, it's never harvested. But, it can be located anywhere in the hive. If it's on top this year, it will be on the bottom next via reversing at dandelions. Only supers above the 2D1M config. are harvested. One note..if you practice spring splitting, it's real handy to have the medium in the middle. Pull from strong colony for instant nuc.

>>An under-publicised characteristic of our bees is that they regulate population to be in proportion to their comb in use. They seem to perceive the top of their honey as the top of their cavity. (True in the tree hollow)

Yeah, I think so. That's why you can winter colonies in small cavities.


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## ajs32 (Apr 27, 2009)

at the risk of restarting an argument i reversed 3-31 avg day temps 70's, 40s at night, top box heavy with honey still, bees in both boxes good numbers i think for this time of year, broke some brood comb from between deeps. the ladies today and yesterday bringing in TONS of pollen


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Mike:
Absolutely. I wonder how many folks realize that the reason hives in the north make more honey is NOT more field forage, but a function of population created by wintering config. CB, where increased brood volume/ population is incouraged, makes up some of that difference. Will likely add some notes at the end of the CB thread to that effect.
Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>Walt says: Mike:
Sorry, didn't recognize it as a question. Thought we had already established in earlier discussion that CB is to break up the reserve honey overhead that is almost a given in most parts of the country. If you can't CB without broodnest disturbance, find another way. You have done that, but apparently it not as reliable as CB.<<

Mike asks...
Not as reliable?? Overhead honey reserve is a given in most parts of the country?? 

Apparently?? A given??

Please do explain and back up your statements...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Mike:
> Absolutely. I wonder how many folks realize that the reason hives in the north make more honey is NOT more field forage, but a function of population created by wintering config. CB, where increased brood volume/ population is incouraged, makes up some of that difference. Will likely add some notes at the end of the CB thread to that effect.
> Walt


Can't agree Walt. We in the north have a honey flow that LASTS. Most folks south of NY or NJ seem to have a flow that lasts only into June, and then everything is dried up and there's no Fall flow. We have a flow that lasts from dandelion in May to Goldenrod/Aster in September. 

How does winter configuration lead to increased population? What does CB do to make up "some of that difference." What difference?

You will you add notes after the discussion is finished??


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## MWillard (Dec 8, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Can't agree Walt. We in the north have a honey flow that LASTS.


I completely agree with Mike. I live in VT and there is always something in bloom here all summer long and into fall. The sources for nectar and pollen are some what limitless to a point. There are varying degrees of quantity for each plant source, but over all there is usually something there for the bees to work.

Maybe that's why some folks refer to this area of the country as "the land of milk and honey".


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> My colonies are mostly 2 deeps and a medium.


do you leave the med in any specific location, ie top super, bottom, or middle?
so that they don't get in the way when making spits. I had to use up some med due to running out of deeps last year and they seemed to winter just fine, want to check and see how much pollen is in the 2 1/2's compared to the 3 deeps b/4 I decide.

I agree that the hives are coming out very light. mine went in very heavy and I normally don't have to feed but am feeding the yards I can get to. as far as pollen, my hives started getting in pollen one day later this year than the last two years but the clusters are monster size.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> I wonder how many folks realize that the reason hives in the north make more honey is NOT more field forage, but a function of population created by wintering config.


This is a new one on me. Long hard winters are the reason that bees make more honey in the north? Doesn't _seem_ to make sense. I thought the main reason had to do with more daylight hours. 

But it isn't true, anyway. I used to live in San Diego (Southern California) and they have huge honey crops there as well. If it rains, that is.

The quality of a honey flow is the product of many factors, primarily having to do with the type of plants, the weather, and the population of the hives. 

To pin it on one thing, like the population of hives at the end of winter, is _oversimplifying_, in my opinion.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wildbranch2007 said:


> do you leave the med in any specific location, ie top super, bottom, or middle?
> so that they don't get in the way when making spits. I had to use up some med due to running out of deeps last year and they seemed to winter just fine, want to check and see how much pollen is in the 2 1/2's compared to the 3 deeps b/4 I decide.


The medium can be anywhere. If on top this year it will be on bottom next year as I reverse my hives. If in the middle it lives in the middle. I don't make spring splits as a rule so it never gets in the way.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Don't feel like haggling on the night shift. Had a rough day enduring a sister. Will come back to this after Easter. In the meantime, others can tell me how stupid I am.
Walt


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## Dr.Wax (Apr 30, 2008)

Walt, I never have understood the antagonism towards you and I hope you will continue posting your observations. They have been very helpful to me. I will have the drawn comb to begin checkerboarding next season and I look forward to that day.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Spring Supering.
Sunday, April 04, 2010
Super your bees when you can see a white frosting of new wax added to the combs.
Or, go into the brood chamber and see if you can do a shake for floral sources in your area.
Then. write down in a log book for future references.
I supered some of my hives two days ago because I know that their population is on the increase, avocados are starting to bloom, a cold front needs to clear out and next Wednesday we 81 degrees F. in the forecast.
These hives are going to have a tough go at it because I supered them with 100% Pierco 6 & 1/4" frames.
The 2nd time that I super these bees wil be using the top supering method and the hives will have made combs that can be intersperced.
Good Luck,
Ernie


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Don't feel like haggling on the night shift. Had a rough day enduring a sister. Will come back to this after Easter. In the meantime, others can tell me how stupid I am.
> Walt


I don't get it Walt. No one is calling you stupid, the Tennessee Crackpot, or anything else. You continue to make remarks like that when someone disagrees with you. When you say that no one else in the history of beekeeping knows the "True Path" to beekeeping success...and the truth is only known by you...that to me is calling everyone else "stupid."

So let's stop with the names. Your statements about northern honey flows and northern beekeeping don't jibe with what I've learned in 36 years of on the job training. Can't we just answer one another's questions.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Mike:
Those self-deprecating words did not originate here. They are quotes. I've been at this business of trying to introduce some new info to the beekeeping community for 15 years. Have not used the whole assortment of unkind words yet, but will dispense with the remainder. Those that I find most objectionable are those that imply that I'm lieing. I take pride in telling it as I see it. That may appear to be a lie, if you don't believe it. Challenging my credentials is fair game - I make no claim to being an expert, but undermining my integrity, as supported by PLB, is over the line.

Addressing your post of 4-3: (will come back to the "flows" thing next time.)
"Reliable" was in reference to swarm prevention. By your own admission, you have limited confidence in the effectiveness of your system to prevent swarming and find it necessary to follow up with swarm control. With CB, that extra work is not required. Will come back to this.

Re the "given" aspect of the overhead honey reserve:
If the colony is left with an amount of honey overhead that supports reliable wintering thay will have some of that reserve in place through the swarm prep period. In my area, with continuous nectar available from late winter, the colony deliberately maintains the capped honey reserve by feeding on incoming nectar. If forced to by circumstances. they will feed on the reserve. Did you not check out what Dennis out in WY had to say about the reserve in a cold winter area?? He wintered in triple deeps when he investigated the concepts of CB. A link to his website was provided on the CB thread.

CB has a feature that I havn't pushed because I don't understand it. My guess is that there are many survival tricks in their genetics that we havn't seen or might not recognize if we did see them. The feature that I don't understand is the WHY of the swarm prevention reliability. The colony CBed and kept in empty comb above completely abandons swarm ambition - The natural drive of the period. Storing nectar overhead, there is no effort to backfill the broodnest with nectar and the broodnest continues to expand untill repro c/o. And once in that mode, whatever it is, it's difficult to get them out of it. Or, at least, my quest to get them to revert to swarm ambition resulted in failure.

Candidly, the first CB test was an effort to redirect the backfilling nectar to overhead. In spite of letting my mag subscriptions lapse to clear my head for an objective look at the swarm process, was hampered by the literature contention that "congestion causes swarming." Was as surprised as you are unbelieving at the results. 100% swarm prevention in the test yard of 12.

A few years back, Jim Fischer characterized CB as "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic." Went off-line via pm to tell him that it was more than that, but couldn't explain why. Still can't.

Why I should bare my soul to someone who doesn't believe anything I say is a mystery - even to me. Just call me Lucky.

Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>Mike:
Those self-deprecating words did not originate here. They are quotes. I've been at this business of trying to introduce some new info to the beekeeping community for 15 years. Have not used the whole assortment of unkind words yet, but will dispense with the remainder. Those that I find most objectionable are those that imply that I'm lieing. I take pride in telling it as I see it. That may appear to be a lie, if you don't believe it. Challenging my credentials is fair game - I make no claim to being an expert, but undermining my integrity, as supported by PLB, is over the line.<<

Well, I looked back at the entire thread, and at Peter's posts. Where did he use unkind words and when did he call you a liar. Saying beekeepers have nutty practices to outwit bees is the truth. Reversing and CBing are nutty practices.

>>Addressing your post of 4-3: (will come back to the "flows" thing next time.)<<

Yep.


>>"Reliable" was in reference to swarm prevention. By your own admission, you have limited confidence in the effectiveness of your system to prevent swarming and find it necessary to follow up with swarm control. With CB, that extra work is not required.<<

Merely adding supers is only part of my manipulation. Reversing and additional supering completes the process. And no doubt my management is more work that yours. And with 700+ colonies it is a considerable amount of work. But you know, I don't care. I'm a beekeeper and I love to work with my bees and I will continue to look at broodnests and performance and patterns and queen cells. With CBing, you haven't a clue what is happening below the supers, unless you look. And as I've said, your broodnest is nowhere nearly large enough to build the huge populations we do here in the north. 

>>Will come back to this.<<

Yep



>>Re the "given" aspect of the overhead honey reserve:
If the colony is left with an amount of honey overhead that supports reliable wintering thay will have some of that reserve in place through the swarm prep period.<<

Maybe, maybe not. Not this year. Some have a few frames of honey left, some have none. None have an overhead honey dome. All were weighed in the Fall and fed to a target weight. Honey consumed and brood raised amounts are all over the scale. All colonies are different and behave differently.


>>In my area, with continuous nectar available from late winter, the colony deliberately maintains the capped honey reserve by feeding on incoming nectar.<<

Deliberately? Or is it that they prefer incoming nectar to stored honey.


>>If forced to by circumstances. they will feed on the reserve.<<

Why would someone assume otherwise?


>>Did you not check out what Dennis out in WY had to say about the reserve in a cold winter area?? He wintered in triple deeps when he investigated the concepts of CB. A link to his website was provided on the CB thread.<<

Nope, I didn't. I know what my beed do with what reserve they have. Very few of my colonies have much of a reserve left, and I don't want them to have. Old honey takes up space. Enough is enough, but too much is a waste.

>>CB has a feature that I havn't pushed because I don't understand it. My guess is that there are many survival tricks in their genetics that we havn't seen or might not recognize if we did see them. The feature that I don't understand is the WHY of the swarm prevention reliability. The colony CBed and kept in empty comb above completely abandons swarm ambition - The natural drive of the period. Storing nectar overhead, there is no effort to backfill the broodnest with nectar and the broodnest continues to expand untill repro c/o. And once in that mode, whatever it is, it's difficult to get them out of it. Or, at least, my quest to get them to revert to swarm ambition resulted in failure.<<

My bees and my management are no different. When I'm dont with my spring mamagement, I find the same thing you do. Once they are storing nectar overhead, they abandon swarming. Why would they backfill the broodnest if there was ample room for overhead storage of nectar? While I have never disagreed that CBing will help control swarming because of overhead storage of nectar, I do disagree with your backfilling theory. I don't believe that the bees purposefully backfill the broodnest with the intention of starting swarming. I think they backfill the broodnest because there isn't anywhere else to put it and that's the swarming trigger. 

One thing..."completely abandons swarming ambition?" I'm not going to debate the difference between reproductive/overcrowded swarms. Personally I think they are all reproductive swarms. The only other type of swarming I can talk about is the colony that starts swarm preparations when they aren't really strong enough to swarm and they aren't even storing nectar overhead. Swarming is a requeening method that some bees use. Isn't that what you call a supercedure swarm? So, do you have any supercedure swarms? 

>>Candidly, the first CB test was an effort to redirect the backfilling nectar to overhead. In spite of letting my mag subscriptions lapse to clear my head for an objective look at the swarm process, was hampered by the literature contention that "congestion causes swarming." Was as surprised as you are unbelieving at the results. 100% swarm prevention in the test yard of 12.<<

It's not and I have not said that congestion causes swarming. I can show you lots of congested colonies at various times of the year that never swarm. Rather than congestion, it's about the bees reaching the cavity limit, overhead honey dome, or having their supers full and being on a flow. In all cases, there is nowhere to store nectar overhead, they backfill the broodnest because they can't put the nectar anywhere else, and swarm preps begin. 

>>A few years back, Jim Fischer characterized CB as "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic." Went off-line via pm to tell him that it was more than that, but couldn't explain why. Still can't.<<

I agree with Jim. It's nothing more than providing overhead storage space. There's nothing magical or unexplainable about it. Just another variation on a theme.

>>Why I should bare my soul to someone who doesn't believe anything I say is a mystery - even to me. Just call me Lucky.<< 

I'm not asking you to bare anything Walt...God forbid. And don't tell me I don't believe anything you say. I've consistently agreed with parts of your theory. I just don't believe everything. I think that's the hard part for you.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Mike:
Before we go any further on this tangent, let me say that I think we have made a case for early supering - the original question. And "early" is before the literature fruit bloom period. 

I consider my main contribution to beekeeping know-how to be definition of the effects of the overhead honey reserve on swarm preps. When the reserve exists, swarm preps start below it. Preservation of the reserve is important to the colony through the swarming period for use in the event of weather interruption or field forage drop-outs. That info was not available in any liturature at my disposal at the time.

Anyone recognizing the role of the reserve in the swarm process would naturally create some way to break up that reserve. Dee Lusby's pyramiding up (raising a frame of brood into the next higher box) works well as I understand it. My approach, CB, was just another that was effective, but I don't consider it nearly as important as the original observation leading to it. Taking a split of a frame or two from the top box works most of the time, but is less reliable.

In your case, with brood to the top, the overhead reserve is not of serious concern. I can understand your considering CB frivolous, But CB both breaks up the overhead reserve AND adds empty comb to encourage overhead nectar storage. Both are important to swarm prevention in most (there I go again) areas of the country.

You may be correct in that it's just a matter of a place to store available nectar. The problem that I have with that is that it seems unlikely to me that the urge to store would displace the basic urge to reproduce. Reproduction is a priority urge in all creatures. On the other hand, availability of nectar in the spring is a given and backfilling would be assured if the colony were topped out by the top of the hive or saving the reserve.

The pieces of the "story" as you call it fit together well and some nebulous areas of the literature are explained. So, I'm sticking with it for now.

Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Mike:
> You may be correct in that it's just a matter of a place to store available nectar. The problem that I have with that is that it seems unlikely to me that the urge to store would displace the basic urge to reproduce.
> Walt


Of course, but they need a trigger to start swarm preparations. Backfilling is that trigger. What does CB do. It provides overhead storage for incoming nectar, delaying...or as you say preventing...backfilling. 

If you didn't CB, what would happen? Many would swarm. So by providing overhead storage the urge to store has displaced the urge to reproduce by eliminating for a time the need for backfilling the broodnest...because there was somewhere overhead to place the nectar. I bet if you had only two CB'd supers above the broodnest and they were filled and you didn't add additional supers and your bees were still on a good flow that they would swarm. Yes? And why would that be? Because they had nowhere to store the incoming nectar and had to store it in the broodnest...backfilling as you call it.

If the urge to reproduce is so overpowering, then why does your CBing delay swarming. I mean, I would think that if the urge were so strong, they would swarm no matter what. Bees react to stimulae. Backfilling the broodnest is the stimulus. Until that happens the bees work merrily along.


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## ehotham (Jun 17, 2009)

I have a question about supering and swarming. 
I have 2 deeps with no honey just bees.
I have a medium super with honey left over from winter on top.
I place an empty medium super under the filled medium super.

Would they not swarm because they now have room for storage?
Would they still swarm because they have enough honey left for the parent hive?
If I CBed the two medium supers they wont swarm because I broke up the honey cap?

I am a second year beekeeper in Phila, PA.
Thanks


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

ehotham:
If we are talking about drawn comb of brood-rearing depth (about a half inch) yes. The bees are reluctant to use shallow cells in the early season - even to store nectar. The second part is to maintain empty comb in your area at the top for another two weeks or so. Don't let them fill the hive to the top. All this presumes that the colonies do not have a band of capped honey across the top of the upper deep at this time. Some will save a full medium as the the reserve and that needs to be opened to nectar storage.
Note that foundation does not get the same results and often results in over-fat frames when they recycle the existing frames of honey.

Mike:
Right on both counts.
Not letting them fill to the top is part of the CB scheme. I recommend two supers so that one can be filled between supering passes and still have an empty at the top. 
Re trigger: In the early days of my observations, redbud was called the trigger. Redbud bloomed in the swarm prep period and the dark nectar was unmistakable in backfilling. Later, when it was concluded that the whole swarm process was a well organized format for reproduction, regretted identifying redbud as the trigger. By your interpretation, the first guess would be correct.

Am aware that Repro c/o does not fit your interpretation. For those who have not seen my descriptions in the "manuscript" or read the articles in POV, let me list the changes that take place at that point in the bee development schedule:
...Consumption starts on the capped honey reserve that was saved through the swarm prep period. During the 3 week lull in overhead storing it will be replaced by this seasons fresh honey.
...Early season bases or cups for queen cells automatically constructed on the next higher level with brood nest expansion will be used for supersedure.
...The overhead storage of nectar is suspended for about 3 weeks (a brood cycle) in the established colony.
...Brood nest reduction starts for those colonies that did not start earlier as part of swarm preps.
...Wax makers generated during the swarm prep period deposit their wax in the first few days of the lull as burr or cell extension. No more new wax until the start of "main flow." 

Since you consider Repro c/o inappropriate, what would you suggest I call this major change in colony internal operations??

Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Since you consider Repro c/o inappropriate, what would you suggest I call this major change in colony internal operations??
> 
> Walt


I wouldn't call it anything, as I don't believe it exists.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
Walt


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