# Sundance Pollen trap



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Did you try opening the trap up every couple of days for a while? Or, perhaps removing one of the drone cone escapes to let SOME bees back in with pollen?


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## Kurt Bower (Aug 28, 2002)

My understanding of the trap is that it was designed in such a way that this was unnecessary.
I left the trap on and consistantly trapped pollen for several weeks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My understanding of the trap is that it was designed in such a way that this was unnecessary.

It's a good theory. One that your experience does not seem to support.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I have looked with care at arriving pollen
foragers in the hive (after they passed
through the sundance trap) and it consistently
removes only ONE of the two pollen balls, as it
is designed two do.

If a hive is suspected of suffering as a result
of using a pollen trap, it might help to contrast
the evidence with what we know about bee life
cycles:

> strong to weak after trapping for several weeks

OK, but from egg to bee takes 21 days (3 weeks)
and from emergence to forager takes another 21
days, while the typical lifespan of a bee is 45
to 60 days during summer when foraging is going on.

So, if one left a pollen trap on for several
weeks (rather than several months) and it had
any negative impact, the sole impact would be
a smaller brood area for the first few weeks.
I would compare brood areas between "trap"
and "no trap" hives.

A drop-off in adult bee population would be
hard to blame on the pollen trap only a few
weeks after installation of the trap.

Could your hives be "crashing" due to varroa,
which does impact adult population?

> Did you try opening the trap up every couple of 
> days for a while?

This would only confuse the bees, Mike.
It takes them a while to adjust to having the
pollen trap "bypassed", as their entrance is
suddenly a few inches above where it was both
before the pollen trap was installed, and
when the pollen trap is "in service". It then
takes them a while to adjust back again when
you close it. Some hives are quicker about this
than others, so YMMV.

> Or, perhaps removing one of the drone cone 
> escapes to let SOME bees back in with pollen?

Nope, that won't work either. What will happen
is that ALL the bees will learn this little
trick, and you won't get much pollen.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>> Or, perhaps removing one of the drone cone 
>> escapes to let SOME bees back in with pollen?

>Nope, that won't work either. What will happen
is that ALL the bees will learn this little
trick, and you won't get much pollen. 

I've seen them with a 3/8" bypass hole in them and they seemed to still collect a decent (but perhaps reduced) amount. A strong hive will still have a big enough traffic jam to force a significant number of bees through the trap. A small hive, of course will use the bypass hole exclusively but then they don't have the resources to afford to give you their pollen anyway. If I were to try drilling a hole I'd go for 1/4" instead. But since the holes are already there and simply have the cones on them...


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2004)

This year I collected pollen in an entire yard of initially 28 hives from May 27 through October 5. We did not take a summer vacation, so the traps were collecting for the entire period. I collected approx. 290 lbs. of pollen, and averaged 87 pounds of honey per hive. 

No hive collapses, although I had three hives swarm so took the traps off those hives until the new queens were mated...and I never got them back on.

Honey and pollen collections were low, but overall this was not a good season.

For lots of reasons, I firmly believe that collecting pollen (with a well-designed trap) does no damage to the hive. Some of those reasons are:

1. There are several commercial pollen collectors in the US. Each running hundreds of traps. I have asked every one I have met whether their yards set up for pollen collection collect less honey than yards without traps. They all have answered 'no'.

2. NO commercial collector that I have talked to 'periodally' sets the trap to a 'no collect' mode.

3. Seely's book (wisdom of the hive) well describes that bees are capable of collecting far more pollen than they need to maintain hive health.

4. NO academic researcher has ever maintained or documented that collecting pollen damages hive health or reduces the honey crop.

5. Jerry Bromascheck (sp?) at the University of Montana claims that a high percentage of the bees re-enter the hive by passing 'backwards' through the cones on the Sundance trap.

6. As Jim Fischer said, a relatively large percentage of the workers figure out how to get through the stripping screens while keeping at least one of the two pollen baskets full, plus all the pollen on their bodies.

Like others, I suspect mite damage to Kurt's hives. THE STRONGEST (most populous) HIVES CARRY THE MOST MITES, AND ARE THE FIRST TO COLLASPE IN THE LATE SUMMER AND EARLY FALL. As a comb honey producer, I learned that lesson the hard way!

Next week US dealers will get literature on the new Sundance II Pollen Trap and hopefully they will choose to offer the trap in their 2006 catalog. This is a top-mount trap that is less expensive than the Sundance I, and produces cleaner pollen. Those of you that are willing to install these on hives without queen excluders and choose to invest will be able to actually observe the bees going through the stripping screen 'catty-corner', so they keep at least one full pollen basket. An amazing sight!

Kurt, sorry for your difficulties and I sincerely believe that using the Sundance trap was not a contributing factor.

Lloyd


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Lloyd, is there a field upgrade kit so those of
us with systems deployed can keep up with the
latest technology?









I spent a whole lot of money to upgrade the fuel
source for the kitchen cooktops this summer, so
I am ready to upgrade something else. I upgraded
to the "Pro" version fuel, so now we burn "Pro-pane". Before, I had the shareware version, called simply "Pane".


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm looking forward to the top mount trap, especially since I already have all top entrances.


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## Lew Best (Jan 8, 2005)

lloyd are you going to sell these direct or only through dealers?

Lew


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Okay guys, I am going to ask a "hobby beekeeper" question here. Will this top mount pollen trap cause more difficulties when working the hives? I kind of like the bees entering on the bottom board entrance and do not know how this top entrance will change my working habits. I need to invest in some pollen traps and want to explore all the avenues this forum shares,thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Will this top mount pollen trap cause more difficulties when working the hives?

I don't have any difficulties. Anytime you work a hive you have a lot of confused bees hovering trying to figure out what's going on. Perhaps there are a few more with an upper entrance. But there would have bee quite a few anyway. I don't do anything differently working a hive with a top entrance.


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2004)

In reply to a question, I just can't compete with my dealers by selling direct. While Bee Source has a 'list' of some 3,000, and the magazines have lists of 10,000-15,000, some dealers send catalogs to 30,000! What is more, we run this operation with just 4 people plus me, and that would have to increase by a multiple to sell direct. Sorry.

No...no retro kit. Don't know how to do that.

As far as top entrances are concerned...I am in my 7th year of running top entrances on everything but those hives that have a bottom mount pollen collector (Sundance). Just a few points:

1. Bees prefer top entrances. Bottom entrances, IMHO, were invented by beekeepers (not bees) for the beekeeper convenience. I have never seen a feral hive with an entrance below the brood nest!

2. Top entrances should be REQUIRED to overwinter in harsh climates! They are hugely beneficial and there is nothing remotely similar with a bottom entrance.

3. Top entrances cannot/should not be used on hives with queen excluders. Drones can be trapped, and supercedure queens can end up above the excluder.

4. There is really no measurable difference in working bees with a top compared to a bottom entrance.

5. IF a beekeeper is going to use queen excluders, she should use a bottom entrance (and a Sundance I trap) for the spring/summer/fall, and a top entrance for the winter. Otherwise, I highly recommend only using a top entrance.

Lloyd


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

I truly thank you for taking the time to be so thorough with your answer, I shall try this new type of pollen collection device Sundance II when it becomes available. Next year we plan on offering pollen for sale as well as honey. Again thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Otherwise, I highly recommend only using a top entrance.

I'll second that.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Wouldn't it then be more advantageous to position the upper entrance either between the brood supers, or on top of the brood supers and beneath the honey supers when honey supers are on the hives?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Wouldn't it then be more advantageous to position the upper entrance either between the brood supers, or on top of the brood supers and beneath the honey supers when honey supers are on the hives?

The bees, just don't seem to care that much. To me the main reasons for using upper entrances are wintering, grass, skunks, mice and ventilation. The bees don't care much where they get in as long as they can.


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