# Queen mating flights - alone or with workers?



## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

I have not seen that the workers "escort" the queen to the DCA, but they do "harass" and chase her towards the entrance during mating flight time in the afternoon.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

I have seen the workers escort the queen on a mating flight on various occasions.

http://www.native-queen-bees.com/apiary-vicinity-mating/


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

It just shows that anybody can write a book. the quality of info just keeps going downhill. this is why I recommend the old standby manuals.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It's commonly known or been observed that a crowd of bees might fly out with her and return shortly.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

JRG13 said:


> It's commonly known or been observed that a crowd of bees might fly out with her and return shortly.


Ive seen this numerous times but only in nucs that are too strong.
My theory is that its more like a swarm response but because the queen flies off as soon as she leaves the nuc the bees may cluster closeby for a few minutes and then pile back into the nuc. 

Ive never seen this behaviour in a weaker nuc or a hive which is why i think there is some kind of swarm instinct kicking in rather than bees escorting the queen on her mating flight.

If bees escorted the queen on her mating flights it would be common knowledge because it would be happening worldwide on all mating flights.
.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Beeware10

Amen


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've seen her escorted and I've seen her not. An observation hive is a great way to watch such things transpire. They go out the door with her and maybe 100 yards or so and then they seem to comb back. Hard to say exactly as they tend to scatter as she takes off for the wild blue yonder and then straggle back.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks to all for your observations. The way the whole thing works so reliably is fascinating to me.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mostly I have observed this from Apidea mating nucs which have a population of about 500 bees and a virgin queen.
It is common enough as I have observed it many times, certainly more than a dozen.
I think some queens mate locally accompanied by an escort of workers and others fly to more distant congregation areas.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

jonathan said:


> Mostly I have observed this from Apidea mating nucs which have a population of about 500 bees and a virgin queen.


That's interesting. To me escort implies some type of leadership or showing the queen the way, but what you describe on the Apidea's sounds marginally like absconding/swarming. Now I am not sure what context Crowder is using... Commercial producers call this a "blow-out" in the sense that the small units are unstable and on edge. When the queen leaves for a mating flight there is some confusion and workers leave with her. Sometimes they settle back down and the queen returns, but other times they gather in large "swarms" in the yard.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Joe, the context Les Crowder provides is just general information upon how a queen gets to the DCA. This makes it sound like the "escorting" of queens to a DCA is more normal than not.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Michael Bush "They go out the door with her and maybe 100 yards or so and then they seem to comb back"

You'll have to pardon my skepticism here a little bit but just how does one follow a queen bee and her entourage visually in flight at 100 yards away with the naked eye? I'm not wearing my boots here this morning but I better keep them handy.


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## spammy_h (Jul 2, 2014)

Don't question Michael Bush - the bees ask him for advice.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

question everything


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## spammy_h (Jul 2, 2014)

It was just a joke - at least I thought it was funny.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>You'll have to pardon my skepticism here a little bit but just how does one follow a queen bee and her entourage visually in flight at 100 yards away with the naked eye? I'm not wearing my boots here this morning but I better keep them handy.

You can't see a swarm of bees or a comet of bees 100 yards off? Maybe you need to see the optometrist. But the way you see such things transpire is put an observation hive in the living room and let it either swarm or make it queenless. I've done both several times. As a means of setting back a booming observation hive, queenlessness is very effective. Then when she emerges and you keep watching you may get lucky enough to see her leave. You can tell that the bees leave by the loss of bees in the observation hive and by the comet leaving and tell that they return by the influx of them coming back. Not to mention you can run outside as they leave an watch them leave. I highly recommend an observation hive and plenty of experiments so you can watch such things...


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

riskybizz keep your boots handy. someones theory by watching an observation hive cannot be compared to a study done by a university which I have never seen. most drone congregation areas are a mile from the queens hive.ya would need a good pair of boots and eyes to keep up with the queen. anyone that has ever tried to keep up with a swarm can relate to this fact. more computer nonsense as far as I'm concerned. not trying to pick a fight but trying to see that new beekeepers don't get bad info.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>someones theory by watching an observation hive cannot be compared to a study done by a university which I have never seen.

Of course. It's doubtful I would ever see anything useful after 41 years in the beeyards and decades of watching an observation hive that would not have been studied by a grad student in a University...


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Bee ware

I put my boots as after the last couple of replies. I'd also bet that most of the really knowledgeable beekeepers are having a good chuckle on this one. The thing is that some individuals know just enough to want to come across as an expert on everything. Most realize this is not the case, and quite frankly if Dr. Latshaw is not familiar with this theory then that's good enough of an answer for me.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

beeware and riskybiz.
Workers accompany queens on mating flights, not always but quite often.
My observations are similar to those of Michael Bush and I rear a lot of queens every summer.

Did you have a look at the link I posted in post 3 above?

http://www.native-queen-bees.com/apiary-vicinity-mating/


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Thank you for the attached link however it seems to contradict everything I have read from the foremost author's and authorities on queen rearing. DCA's are established to provide virgin queens an isolated mating opportunity far removed from her own genetic offspring. Isn't Mother Nature smart to have provided such a genetic resource.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Im fairly confident if it was something that happened regularly I would have seen it in our mating yards.

If it was part of the mating process it would happen every time, which makes me think workers leaving with a virgin are not doing so as part of that process but for some other reason entirely.
.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Agreed...so what is that the barber says...Neeeeeeext..


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

After reading the link, ive witnessed the same thing from small overcrowded nucs, but have never been able to identify a virgin flying amongst hundreds of other bees and to be honest would question anyones ability to see that for more than a fleeting moment.

I dont think the virgin is being mated in that swarm I think she flys off to a DCA leaving the bees behind.

Or maybe shes just on an orientation flight and because the nuc is so overcrowded the bees head out with her in swarm mode.

if queens can be mated in small swarms basically a few yards from the ground and a few yards from a nuc then Im sure that enclosed matings would be possible and normal practice in a breeding operation which as far as Im aware isnt happening.
.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Some of Gerry Loper's work in tracking bees (drones specidically) with radar shows that in addition to the DCA'S (which are shown to be cone shaped by tilting the radar) there were flyways between the colonies and the DCAS (I forget how long drones stay in the DCA before returning to a hive bUT I think 20 or 30 min).

Lopers Comments (in a well produced video he showed at WAS ) along with the video of the radar screen (16mm black and white movie film 1 frame per revolution of the dish) implied to me that queens coming from apiaries were likely to get mated in a flyway.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

We saw one in Don Fatbeeman's nuc yard (hundreds of nucs)....he called it a mating swarm and claimed to see them all the time.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Is it me, or is there some confusion here between workers who might escort the queen, and drones that might mate with the queen?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I don't have the full study, and the abstract is less than crystal clear...



> The maximum height of drones in flyways was 21 m, whereas in DCA's they flew mainly from 30-50 m above ground. Flyways are more predominant than DCA's, and contain large numbers of drones. It is suggested that queens flying within or to the upwind side of flyways should attract sufficient drones to become easily mated.


http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/25085360?sid=21106230058233&uid=3739256&uid=2&uid=4


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

I'll buy everything said except for the retinue.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Ok. I have seen virgin queens leave with the retinue of workers maybe 15-20 times at this point and I rear several hundred grafted queens a year.
What's your experience with queen rearing Riskybizz?
Some queens mate locally and others travel to the DCAs in my neck of the woods.
Áre you rearing a lot of queens so you would be in a position to see queens leave to mate with a retinue of workers on occasion?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I have never seen any well known researcher such as morse or laidlaw writing about workers leaving with the queen on a mating flight. congregation areas yes. still just a theory as far as Im concerned. not claiming to be an expert but have been commercial for 50 yrs plus a few yrs as a nys inspector.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Do you rear queens or spend time in apiaries where a lot of virgins take mating flights?
You wont see it if you are not there to see it.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

It strikes be as quite odd that so many well known researchers studying queen mating for months did not discover this if there was anything to it. that is my best observation.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Some people have seen it and have written about it. Beo Cooper was one writer who described Apiary vicinity mating.
Like I said, I have seen it many times myself and I am a natural skeptic.
I keep Apis mellifera mellifera. Maybe it is more common with that subspecies.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

This is a little piece of video I took of a queen returning from a mating flight to a mini mating nuc.
The bees you seewith the queen are the workers which accompanied her on the mating flight
They sometimes make a pitstop on the way back, in this case on top of a nuc.
This queen started to lay 3 days later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXj-9jk4KUI


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Jonathon that is a handsome looking queen. Thanks for the video. I am fascinated by how this works. I respect research and researchers, but have just as much respect for the observations of people in the field. 
Riskybizz said "question everything", and I think that just because a researcher hasn't said it happens doesn't mean it can't. Sometimes scientists lead the way and sometimes they follow, giving validity to the observations of others.


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## Adrian the Beeman (Aug 28, 2021)

Think about the differences in bee anatomy. Take a look at the size of queen eyes compared to drones, compared to workers. Drones and queens have eyes suited to finding small groups of bees in flight. Workers have eyes suited to finding flowers, prefereably in large volumes. Queens are so much more suited to finding drones (and drones are even BETTER suited to finding queens) than workers are. Queens would work as seeing eye dogs for workers if the workers needed to find drones


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## Thorting (Apr 18, 2020)

I agree with Adrian that the anatomy of drones are built to find and chase queens, and queens are built to get mated by the best possible drones out there. So that means - do not get mated with brother drones, because their sperm has a 50% failure rate. Nature solves these problems pretty quickly. Because of this, there is no way that the queen gets mated leaving or entering the hive and this includes orientation flights. I am not doubting what you are seeing, and would suggest that the queen is being escorted in and out of the hive so a predator will not key on her. So the math of the drones is they travel <1 miles and queens travel to 5 miles. Also mating has not been done in enclosed spaces like greenhouses, so there’s probably a chase and/or a free fall involved. The other thing is CO2 or O2 depletion is involved in mating, does this mean that a queen can out fly a drone if she is under a mile into her flight or that O2 depletion relaxes her for mating - just buy her a drink to get her in the mood. You II people can tell me why CO2 and why it has to be done twice? With the track devices that they are using for the Asian giant hornet and drone technology it will not be long until a researcher will get a mating video.


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