# *Broodnest Structure* Shakedown Regression



## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

You can forget about trying to conserve the integrity of a broodnest when all they have is one frame of comb and the rest is foundation. So do what is convenient, which what I'd do is, place the brood frame against one of the walls. They seem to start from a wall if given nothing to start with anyways. If you forget about it then it'll be easier to ID that odd frame and remove it later. The outside frames are easier to rotate out if you're not wanting to monkey with the brood. Plus, it being a larger-cell comb you want it on the outside anyways. I don't think I'd use 2 deeps of just foundation. I've never tried it but supposedly the potential for the bees making a boogered up mess is high. You could probably get all of the bees into one deep, it'd be worth a try anyways.


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## betrbekepn (Aug 7, 2006)

wade said:


> I don't think I'd use 2 deeps of just foundation. anyways. I've never tried it but supposedly the potential for the bees making a boogered up mess is high.


I forgot to mention that the frame of brood I want to put in with the double deep foundationless frames is a deep frame. Hoping the frame of brood will serve two purposes, keep them from abandoning and act as a comb guide. My top bars have a V comb guide ( not in the picture ). Maybe I won't leave a frame of brood cause I don't want to confuse them, 5.4mm cells. *What do you think?*


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## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

Sorry, I missed that they're foundationless. But the boogered up potential still applies with two boxes put on at once. I suspect that its a matter of them getting 20 frames off -track vs 10 frames, rather than it being more apt to get off track just because of the arrangement, but I don't know.


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## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

*devel of a time*

betrbekepn -
I'm happy to have caught this post. Today i plan to install a swarm into a hive like this. I didn't realize it was called a double deep. I clicked on your picture and there was a frame like mine!

Did you make a double deep body or do you use two deeps stacked up?

I wired my frames for comb support. I've had comb failure in my topbars because they are so deep. I didn't want to chance it.

The swarm is in a box that's inside the DD body and has been there for about 3 or 4 weeks. It'll be a bit of a cutout with rubberbands to hold the comb in place. The wires will come in handy i believe.

I plan to add a screen bottom as soon as i can make one and i've got a "Tarheit" (?) style top entrance for ventilation.

Next year, if all goes well, i would like to checkerboard it and see what happens. All the rest of my equipment is deep, so it'll make for a tall stack even before i get started.

I think putting in a frame of open brood would be a good idea for both of your reasons. I dont know if it will "confuse" them or not. My guess, and it is just that, is that it probably would not. At least not for long.

I'm also going to guess that, when the time comes, they will just build off the bottom of the frame, if it's still there.

I like wade's idea of putting the frame against one wall, maybe decide which will be the warmest.

Did you make extra frames to cycle into the broodnest? I've read here that it's a good idea in order to keep them regressing and for health issues.

I plan on keeping a close eye on them, especially at first, because of the potential for cross-comb is pretty high i suppose. I have found it before and have removed the comb and turned the hive to orient the frames to the direction they want to go. Worked evey time as far as i can remember.

Good luck with your project and thanks for your post, it was so very timely.

Regards,
jim

P.S. If this gets posted, i'll be a happy camper. I've had a devil of a time trying to get this to work. I'm NOT a computer any thing and i dont know why it hasn't worked for the last four attempts in two days. Operator error, i'm sure. I wish me luck.


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## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

YAY! Yay for me. (needed at least ten charecters for it to work)


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## RAlex (Aug 18, 2001)

Betrbekepn...I suspect the bees will use the frame of brood that you put in there as a model for the comb they draw ? Even if it is put on the outside. That said if I were to try this I think I would get some sheets of 4.9 or 5.1 and alternate them with foundationless frames. I hopes of getting them started straight. The hive will have to be very level so the comb doesnt drift from one frame to another. I also think that a natural swarm would be better suited to trying this set-up. Good Luck in this endeavor . Please let us know how it works out for ya ...Rick


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>with my hives long side facing south, (the entrance is also on the long side facing south), what frame will they begin drawing first?

Whichever one they want. 

Probably they will prefer the south side if the south side is catching sun.


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## betrbekepn (Aug 7, 2006)

jim b said:


> betrbekepn -
> I didn't realize it was called a double deep. Did you make a double deep body or do you use two deeps stacked up?


I'm going to use 2 deeps stacked. I modified the frame rests in the bottom deep, beespace. odfrank is doing something similar http://flickr.com/photos/odfrank/434591454/ He calls it a "gargantuan box\frames". http://flickr.com/photos/odfrank/344959623/



jim b said:


> I wired my frames for comb support. I've had comb failure in my topbars because they are so deep. I didn't want to chance it.


You've had comb failure using extra deep frames. Please more info. 



jim b said:


> Did you make extra frames to cycle into the broodnest? I've read here that it's a good idea in order to keep them regressing and for health issues.


Yes, I have extra frames but I won't be cycling them into broodnest ( natural broodnest structure would be destroyed ).



RAlex said:


> Betrbekepn... I think that a natural swarm would be better suited to trying this set-up.


Presently, I only have one beehive of 5.4mm bees. I have 4 double deep hives. Working on catching local feral swarms to hive in them. I'm hoping that when shaking the 5.4mm bees into the double deeps that it'll will take them more than month before getting around to building the center of the broodnest (small cell), so that the hatching brood, young (5.1mm bees), can construct small cell.


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## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

*more on failure, and some other stuff too*

> He calls it a "gargantuan box". 
Yeah, i know how he feels. I put my frames in a box for storage and labeled it "monster frames".


>You've had comb failure using extra deep frames. Please more info.

I have a couple of topbar hives. There are no frames, only bars that rest on the edges of the box. If you are not familiar with these, check out the Topbar forum. Since you are interested in natural broodnest structure, these would be a "natural" for you. Quick, easy, cheap, and a lot of fun.


>Yes, I have extra frames but I won't be cycling them into broodnest ( natural broodnest structure would be destroyed ).

From what i've read on beesource, mostly from MB, it's a good idea to cycle empty frames into the center of the broodnest at the rate of one or two per year in order to cycle out older combs and to continue the regression process. It was explained that regression is a process and does not take place all at once. They wont produce 4.9 cells right off the bat from 5.2. It happens gradually, or in stages. I personally have not done much measuring, i'm just taking others words for gospel. Actually i'm not as concerned with "small cell" as i am with "natural cell". I see all sizes of cells in my hives- they are all foundationless. They are all from swarms.

It was also explained that feeding empty frames into the center of the broodnest keeps it from getting clogged and helps prevent swarming. It also keeps fresh wax in there. The older wax will build up contaminants and fill from the inside of the cell with layers of leftovers from the cocoons that aren't cleaned out completely each time they are reused. It seems to make sense. No reason to let things get stagnant in a managed hive situation. But on the other hand, if the cells are getting smaller on the ID from all that build up, wouldn't that help with the regression process? That makes sense too. But i suppose they are going to be in there for three or four years, that should be long enough. Also the older frames are removed from the outsides. Room is made for one frame in the center of the broodnest and the others are moved outward and the last one is removed from the hive and it's usually honey storage. Most of that is quite tasty.


>Working on catching local feral swarms to hive in them. 

I use lemongrass oil and catch swarms with (almost) regularity. The easiest way is to "bait" the ready hive with lemongrass oil and place it in a good spot and keep an eye on it for bee activity. Move it to their new location as soon as they move in, while they are still in the swarm mode. Keep a close eye on them to watch for cross comb.

Well that may be more than you wanted, but it's stuff that i think about and now you can too. Think about what you want and forget the rest. Just dont forget to have fun.
Cheers,
jim


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## betrbekepn (Aug 7, 2006)

jim b said:


> Well that may be more than you wanted, but it's stuff that i think about and now you can too. Think about what you want and forget the rest. Just dont forget to have fun.


Thanks *jim b*. Good luck with the "Monster Frames  "


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## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

*senior moment*

I totally forgot what it was that i was going to tell you about comb failure.

My topbar hives are about 12" deep and lang wide, 19.875" maybe, i forget. They are about 4 feet long but that's irelevant.

With that wide a span and the depth, the combs get heavy, especially when filled with honey.
During the heat of summer sometimes the combs soften to the point that they tear off at the top. 
This makes a mess in the bottom. Honey is one thing. Piles of brood mixed with piles of honey is a sad mess. 

This is why i wired my monsters. This is the chance i dont want to take.

Sorry i forgot the topic i was replying to. Not the sharpest candle in the drawer.

Later,
jim


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