# Queens after June 15th



## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

What are the pros and cons of using queens born after June 15th?


----------



## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

It is June 21 the first day of summer. Some people think that a queen born after 21 June will lay better for the winter.


----------



## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Your right scdw43 it is the 21st, what I am looking for is someone to say that they know it is true, that queens born after June 21st lay better for winter, or have reduced tendences to swarm the following spring.


----------



## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Here's an earlier posting posting where the topic was covered. It was called Change-of-Days. It had over 4,000 views!

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...f-Days-quot-queens&highlight=SUMMER+SOLSTICE+


----------



## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

I read the Change-of-Days thread, It was started in May of 2008. In those post nobody new for sure wether it worked or not, and that is what I was trying to find out by starting this post. 
I would like to ask Mike Bush who stated in a thread on that post that he was " going to pay more attention to it and see what he thinks" What he thinks now, four years later. Are you there Mike, and did you look into it any further?


----------



## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

>"I discovered that a virgin queen that is newly-mated after June 20 (the change of days) out breeds the varroa mite and simultaneously breaks its breeding cycle, therefore eliminating the need for miticides."


A quote from www.mdasplitter.com

Here is the link, first page third paragraph

http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/IMN BOOKLET.pdf

Here is his email address:

[email protected]


----------



## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Mels' email address no longer works. Probably because too many people like me were emailing him ;-)
His reference for post-summer solstice queens goes back to Doolittle's research. 

M Bush make a similar case that making spits on July 15th provides a honey crop as well as a new queen to lay well into fall. I am planning for this and have ordered queen cells from a reputable breeder for that date.


----------



## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

I have had some late queens that made good ones in the fall and the next spring.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

DonShackelford said:


> M Bush make a similar case that making spits on July 15th provides a honey crop as well as a new queen to lay well into fall.


How's that done and where?


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Michael Palmer said:


> How's that done and where?


We can do that here. Flow tapers off end of June, pull crop, divide. I just watched a German video where they blow the bees off of the spring crop for divides.


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Most of my queens were born after June 21st, most tried to swarm. However, all of them did survive the winter. I am working on a combo of Mel's broodless period method and Mike Palmers nuc method for sustainability. I notice that the OP is in South Carolina, I don't know if MDA methods work in the southern climes.


----------



## Naturegoods (Mar 12, 2010)

Call me skeptical of the june 21 date. June 21 in alabama is different than Jun 15 in canada.
I think the point is late summer queen vs spring queen, especially if the spring queen is purchased from the south and brought north.
Personally I prefer mid to late summer queens but requeening a big honey making hive is an issue.


----------



## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

odfrank said:


> We can do that here. Flow tapers off end of June, pull crop, divide. I just watched a German video where they blow the bees off of the spring crop for divides.


I was thinking about experimenting with divides after honey flow on a few colonies and see how they overwinter!?



I also use Mel's tech and my summer raised queens overwinter real well and build up quick the following spring!


----------



## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

How come MDA methods wouldnt work in the south?


----------



## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

I would think Mel's methods would work in the south, but then I have never tried to keep bees in the south!
The main thing is you need to create a broodless period after such a date! 
You might have to feed your bees (nucs) more than someone in the north? (I don't know the dates on your honey flows?)


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Sfisher, we have a long period up here, weeks to months, when the bees can't break cluster and fly; During this time there is no opportunity for mites to get from one hive to another and there are no larva for the mites to feast on. I don't know if the immigration of mites between colonies is a factor in the south or not. Also, is there a period down there when they are laying no brood? 
Perhaps you could experiment and let us know how it turns out.


----------



## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

Most winters all my hives have brood yeararound.Some hives have a lot and some just a little. I believe that the ones with a lot of brood buildup better but if they run out of feed they will starve a whole lot quicker. I had a hive this year where the queen laid a lot of brood in Jan. The bees ran out of stores around that brood during a cold spell, and would not leave the brood to move up in the deep above full of honey and starved on the brood. A cold winter that last five months is better for bees than one that never comes and is 60 degrees in Jan for ten days and then drops to 22 degrees the next week.


----------



## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

5/27/2012
Pros:
Currently making divides because it works into my schedule.
Currently killing all queens that are over one year of age.
I can graft cells off the three breeder queens that were purchased this year from Glenn Apiaries.
Converting honey into nuc numbers.
Prepping for next years pollination and nuc sales.
Prevents winter losses.
You can fill old and new equipment with bees.
Increase your numbers.
By working your bees more often you should be able to eliminate failing queens.
Young vigerous nucs and hives headed by young queens provides young bees going into the winter and we know what that means for winter survival and spring build up.
Young queens will continue laying into late fall. However, old queens stop laying sooner in the fall and they are the last to start laying after or near 12/21.
__________________________________________________________________

Cons.
Some additional labor.
_____________________________________________________


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

odfrank said:


> We can do that here. Flow tapers off end of June, pull crop, divide. I just watched a German video where they blow the bees off of the spring crop for divides.


I wasn't asking about making splits after the flow. I make hundreds. I was asking about the bit about splits after July 15 making a honey crop.


----------



## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

I dont think you can just use a day and say anything mated after the 21st will lay different than one mated and laying on the 20th. A spring queen will slow down come fall and a fall queen will raise bees like a spring queen in spring. Here in Northern Wisconsin I believe a queen mated in mid to late July is fantastic for raising winter bees and surviving winter. Problem is you need a fall flow or you will need to feed a ton of syrup. It is wise not to take all your honey for extracting and leave some for the bees if you are raising fall some fall singles, double or nucs to winter.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Michael Palmer said:


> I wasn't asking about making splits after the flow. I make hundreds. I was asking about the bit about splits after July 15 making a honey crop.


"M Bush make a similar case that making spits on July 15th provides a honey crop as well as a new queen to lay well into fall."

OH, I interpreted it differently. We don't have much of a fall flow so I can't do that either. In the good old days my best hives made a winter crop on eucalyptus, but the last five years only one did that because most of them dropped dead during winter.


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Wibeek, we have been lucky this last few years with the Goldenrod flow, but I see what you mean. If that fails some major feeding will be needed for the late splits.


----------



## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Here is what Mel had to say about outbreeding mites in the south, and the reason why his website address didnt work.

Steve,
Thanks for your email and interest in the OTS. I had a hacker that use on "t" in mdasplitter and my server cancelled that from getting through and it is returned. You can tell Beesource of that.

It will work in the south as that is how the African Bees also break the mites breeding cycle. You just have to do it more often. I do believe that once a year is enough.

I do it twice a year.

Thanks,
Mel


----------



## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I talked with Mel about using it in NC. The timing of the system just didn't work for me though. The techniques involve splitting into multiple nucs, letting them grow, then recombining them back into one massive hive (along with OTS queens and breaks in brood cycles). The theory is that when you combine the work forces, you get a booming crop. And he's right. But around here the first, and really only good flow is Tulip Poplar, which starts Mid April and ends Mid May. No real flow after that. In order to have multiple nucs in mid April ready, I'd have to start the process no later than February 1 (which would give me 30 days for the OTS queen to emerge, mate, and get a good laying pattern, then two and a half brood cycles in order to make it worth while). I can't have drones ready by mid February every year, and having a population big enough to split four ways would require some SERIOUS feeding around December 22 (or the change of days). So for me, the MDA system didn't make logical sense to increase my honey yield. 

To use it as a break-the-mite cycle . . . well I could use any type of split to accomplish that lol.

As far as the after June 15th queens, around here it's though to tell. Since by June 15th you don't have a flow on, you have to feed to get decent cells drawn. At that point you are weighing between a flow queen (the best kind) pre June and an artificial flow queen post June. Any beneficial attributes that an artificial flow queen made post June would have would likely be outweighed by the fact that she wasn't made during a flow


----------



## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

Specialkayme I agree with your assessnent of Mel system for use in our area as the only other flow I have is sourwood after the poplar. I believe that great queens are made on a flow. I also believe that great queens can be made later after the flow with proper feeding with syrup and combs of honey. The later queen might even be better mated than early ones as there are more drones available. Just my two cents.


----------



## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

I agree with this for us also. I want to start raising queens now & my flow is petering out. But are you sure about more drones being available. Often, after the flow ends, first of June, I see drones being forced out of the hive to die.


----------



## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

I have drones most years until 15 October in established hives. Last year which was not a typical year I had drones in December. I know because I saw them returning to the hive. I can't prove it but I would say I had drones all winter.I know what you are referring to as most colonies raise a lot of drones in the early spring but I think that with new colonies being established in the spring the drone numbers stay up until late summer. Maybe not more drones available in the summer, maybe more good flying days. I know that a lot of queen breeders on this forum raise and sell a lot of queens that are not raised on a flow and I have not heard them admit that their later queens are not as good as the first (on flow) queens are.


----------



## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

But do you think there are more drones in the spring, or more drones in the late summer?

No doubt they exist year round in some years for us in the south, and I can continue to raise queens into September and October if I wanted to, but that doesn't mean they are mating as well as queens raised in May.



scdw43 said:


> I know that a lot of queen breeders on this forum raise and sell a lot of queens that are not raised on a flow and I have not heard them admit that their later queens are not as good as the first (on flow) queens are.


Lol, well, do you expect them to admit that? 

The challenges of rearing queens off a flow are greater than when on one. That doesn't mean that it can't be done, and it doesn't mean that you can't take steps to counteract any negative effects it may have. It does mean the more skilled the breeder the better chances they have of creating similar queens on a flow as opposed to off one. That doesn't mean they will be equal, and it becomes more so with the fewer amount of experience you get. That doesn't mean that anyone is going to admit to you that their August queen isn't 100%.


----------



## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

OK


----------

