# 3D Printing for the Beekeeper



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

If you would want to print nuc boxes or even 8 or 10 frame boxes you will need at least a Creality CR 10. I printed my nuc backs and fronts with a Creality ender but needed the CR 10 to print the sides in 2 pieces. so at this time the nuc box is in 6 pieces weighing around 800 grams and printed with PETG. Not all that cheap but no painting will be required and it is assembled in minutes with screws. With 8 or 10 frame boxes you would probably need 8 or 10 parts the 2 extra parts would be inserts to join the two front and back pieces togetherThe cost of a super would be in the vicinity of around $30 not cheap however I have a couple of Apimaye hives I purchased to look at the best way to OAV treat with them and then decided to try and purchase some empty supers and the cost I got from them was around $90 so I guess I will print my own supers for the Apimaye hives.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Yeah, I have the Prusa MK3S+ which is not a huge format but I really like the features and quality. One of my guys at work has a Creality and I can always hear it whining in the background as he prints while we are on calls.

I was looking (briefly) for a model for the Apimaye and did not see one. I guess I could make one, but I've got a dumpster out front of the house and we are preparing to move. The wife will KILL me if I take longer than a 5-minute break.  If I do get the time, I assume they are basically the same dimensions as the Chinese ones? I have one of those here.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I have not seen the Chinese ones at all so I can't comment. The hassle putting these things together is the time spent on freecad.I have 3 Creality Enders and the CR 10 they are not expensive and get you printing after you assemble them. I have increased the nozzle to 0.6mm which cuts down the print times where the finish is of little importance. My son does quite a lot of printing and has one of these that print onto a belt so you could make the parts in one piece but I do not feel like spending around a $1000 just for that. I have also built some mini's for queen rearing and ran 4 of them for a while this year, they have 5 small frames that cut plastic foundation fit into and then a feeder fits on top that has a queen excluder in the entry area then a cover on top. Those enterance discs that are on my nucs also fit onto the mini nuc's.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Bearing in mind that I know* absolutely nothing whatoever* about 3D-printing, it's shortcomings or it's potential - 2 questions ...

1) is it possible to print a plastic structure on top of a wooden former ? For example, plastic cladding around a sheet of (say) balsa wood - in the same way as a balsa core sandwiched between fibreglass sheeting is often used in yacht construction. Nothing in mind for this - just curious.

2) But - if the answer to the above is positive, then would it also be possible - in principle - to 3D-print directly on top of a hardwood wooden roller to create a pair of wax-sheet embossing rollers ? I'm sure that such an item would be hellishly demanding to make, but a DIY embossing machine made for relatively little money would be very desirable - if indeed this could be done. 

An alternative approach might be to make several 'curved tiles' (in the form of arcs to fit completely around the roller's circumference) - say 6 for a 4" diameter roller, each one 4 (say) inches long - so that would be 18 such curved tiles for a 12" long roller. Two rollers, of course. Each plastic tile secured to the roller by four very small wood-screws (the heads of which would show on the resulting embossed wax foundation surface - but so what ? 

Is such a wacky idea feasible - or no ?
LJ


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

LJ, I would say with the present printers available to the small user the prints that you suggested are not possible, I see no reason that it could not be made possible if the demand was there however I would see no major demand in that area, Basically the system is almost a reverse CNC milling sytem, instead of starting at the top and removing matterial you start at the bottom and add material. So basicall you work on 3 flat axis.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

little_john said:


> is it possible to print a plastic structure on top of a wooden former ? For example, plastic cladding around a sheet of (say) balsa wood - in the same way as a balsa core sandwiched between fibreglass sheeting is often used in yacht construction.


No, but printed plastic is not necessarily solid. Below is a cross section of the part at what is called "15% infill," meaning it's 15% solid in between the shells. 










little_john said:


> would it also be possible - in principle - to 3D-print directly on top of a hardwood wooden roller to create a pair of wax-sheet embossing rollers ?


No, but 3D printing is often about re-imagining in the 3D world. For that, I might create the embossing as a cylinder (probably two of them with my printer) and bring it upright.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

LBussy, that is correct I never thought about printing those rollers in an upright position, although you will have to print in a reverse honeycomb on the outside and the pattern will have to be in a perfect circle. Still not easy to get a good finish.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

johno said:


> LBussy, that is correct I never thought about printing those rollers in an upright position, although you will have to print in a reverse honeycomb on the outside and the pattern will have to be in a perfect circle. Still not easy to get a good finish.


But if you are going to go there you could print the rollers on top of the drive gears and include the hole in the center for the shaft. It will be all about drawing these rollers with their gears in CAD and then turning them into an STL file. For the amount of them you wish to make I would print then one at a time until you are satisfied with the print. Silk PLA plus would probably do the trick.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

And here it is: OpenScad parametric bees wax honeycomb roller


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

And here's a guy that built one. I have to say, the auto-translated captions are easier in the Russian vids. 






ETA: Here are the 3D files


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Wow - I am seriously impressed by that. 

One of the joys of complete ignorance of a technology is unfettered 'blue sky thinking' - much like flying a bi-plane up to the moon ... I had serious doubts about whether this idea was truly feasible or not (I hadn't even thought about gears - was thinking more along the lines of a bicycle chain and sprockets).

Very cleverly done. Many thanks for posting the above. 
LJ


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

thats nifty
Ihad seen a few different 3d printed rollers but never any video proof they were working well

JohnO, did your 3d printed II stuff end up geting anywere?

I have been eyeballing a Jordan Pollard, while it was made to be easily machinable, its begging for a 3d printed variant , and would be likely much more funtional then the printed ones out there (they sux, bad) baised on more complex systems.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

MSL I never got it going, started trying to make up the glass tubes and that is as far as it went. I just ended up with too many irons in the fire and just sort of ran out of steam.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I hear that... my 3d printing has dropped quite a bit after this magically appeared in my garage (not so magical, at 1500# it was as PITA to move solo)








back left is the small injection molder(it has a much bigger brother).... too many irons in the fire


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

msl said:


> my 3d printing has dropped quite a bit after this magically appeared in my garage


Holy crap! Here I was thinking I was going off the deep end considering a laser CNC.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

msl said:


> back left is the small injection molder(it has a much bigger brother)....


Now your talking real machines! Blow molding operator for five years, mostly extrusion blow with some injection blow. Did not spend much time at the other end of plant with the straight injection machines. Sure you are well aware of tooling costs. Was told by an 'old timer' in the 90s how in the 60s they actually had some wooden molds. Said they did not last well so were not cost effective. Just something for you to consider...


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## E.T.'sBees (Nov 28, 2021)

Super cool, thanks


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

William Bagwell said:


> Sure you are well aware of tooling costs


hence the reason I have a cnc mill...
AL from the scrap yard is $2 a pound, makes it far less panful when I botch a mold or product dezine


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

little_john said:


> 2) But - if the answer to the above is positive, then would it also be possible - in principle - to 3D-print directly on top of a hardwood wooden roller to create a pair of wax-sheet embossing rollers ? I'm sure that such an item would be hellishly demanding to make, but a DIY embossing machine made for relatively little money would be very desirable - if indeed this could be done.


Know little to nothing of 3D printing, and have read both replies above stating it would be difficult to print on an existing roller. But, if some figures it out in the future... Printing on knurled metal rollers should be better than smooth wood? Was on another (non beekeeping) forum today and ran across "Two-Roller-Grain-Mills" and after seeing one, thought it was _almost_ a foundation roller minus the hex pattern and the two gears to keep the rollers synchronized. The ones I found are only 6" wide so would not work for deeps. A brewing supply has some very detailed pictures with dimensions, Amazon has one with a vague description and much lower price. Plus an un-needed hopper. Worth a look if you can solve the problem.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

William Bagwell said:


> Printing on knurled metal rollers should be better than smooth wood?


I'm not sure anyone has solved for printing on a surface as you suggest. msl's CNC could do it without breaking a sweat (assuming he has that axis covered.) Laser engravers do allow turning a surface (such as when printing on glasses and mugs) so the software is out there in the public domain. I don't think there will be anyone silly enough to go modify it for just this. 



William Bagwell said:


> Was on another (non beekeeping) forum today and ran across "Two-Roller-Grain-Mills"


HBT? There have been a lot of homebrewed grain mills, and I've made some myself. Interestingly, larger non-knurled rollers create a more optimal "grind," a "crush" being best for preventing torn husks and leaving a uniform grain bed. With larger rollers, you only need to drive one side and the other, provided it is on quality bearings, will roll freely to match.

I think the foundation embossing setup shared by that French (I assume) gentleman is pretty well thought out. I'm clearing out the house and throwing things away, not making more, so this one will have to wait. Maybe I'll have a nice pile of capping wax to use by the time I get around to this. I wonder if it's practical to make the very thin foundation used for cut comb with that?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The printing of it is entirely out of my field. I see problems with the system of controlling clearance of the rollers. Point of contact much too small an area but that could be modified.

What is missing is a method of precisely indexing the secondary roller timing. Axial clearance between male and female hexagons should be precisely controlled to get uniform cell bottoms and sides without perforation. Again, not too difficult to add that feature. 

Graininess of surface may be a problem with sticking. You fellows into printing would know about that. 

Taper of the sides of the hex forms both male and female is necessary to enable free withdrawal. In other words the sides of the indentations should not be exactly parallel. Literature touting the merits of different foundation stress the advantage of greater cell depth. All the points mentioned above become increasingly more critical as deeper cell sides are targetted.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

You have your work cut out for you MSL, been there and done that, was a partner in a manufacturing business for 17 years. Mainly doing compression moulding of thermosets even produced our own BMC or DMC depends which side of the pond you are on. We also had a number of injection moulders as well as metal working presses and bits and pieces. Of course this was in the early days before the CNC stuff came around and all tools were made on hand operated machine tools and then there was the spark eroder worked with smoke and mirrors and with a copper shaped electrode you could burn a shaped cavity into a block of tool steel. Kind of miss the tooling there when I work on the projects I have at the moment. LJ why print onto a roller when you can print the whole roller and the drive gears, actually you could print every thing else you need to put a mill together except for the shafts. The syncronising of the 2 rollers is done with the 2 drive gears, however in the day of wax coated plastic foundation I would not go in that direction anyhow.


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## SuiGeneris (Feb 13, 2018)

The theads gone off in a different direction since the OP, but I have a small handful of designs (I use the term loosely) I've designed and made for beekeeping on my thingiverse account: Thingiverse - Digital Designs for Physical Objects


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

The different direction just illustrates the difference between making thousands of objects against making them one at a time by means of the 3D printer. These little printers should fuel innovation in all directions.It is also a usefull way to bring new people into the world of CAD especially prametric drawing and Freecad is a free down load, Creality Enders can be found for under $200 and that is a good entry level printer. LBussy the whining you heard from your friends Creality was probably from one of the cooling fans, they can get a little noisy some times.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

forgot to add you can find johno's matting nuc here Johno's mating nuc w/frame by milsimlabs


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

On the other hand, printing the press molds vs. the rollers should be significantly simpler.
Should suffice for the small peeps plenty.
Though, just buying the molds is cheap as it is. 



https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0+%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%81


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

msl said:


> forgot to add you can find johno's matting nuc here


_looks to the left_
_looks to the right_
... ? I don't see it.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Sorry, just fixed it... just got done with a 3 hour ATF inspection....of cource everything was just fine, but I am bit frazeled



GregV said:


> On the other hand, printing the press molds vs. the rollers should be significantly simpler.
> Should suffice for the small peeps plenty.
> Though, just buying the molds is cheap as it is.


the molds arn't "that" cheap... I did make one (full Silicone and urethane casting shop in the basement) and they worked ok, but the resulting cast wax is very brittle compared to rolled.. I had to cut it while it (makein mating nucs) was still warm to keep it form shatering
edit, I see they have droped to like $50... not bad


now if you want cheap, just use a board and dip it.. no "reason" you have to have cell imprints


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> edit, I see they have droped to like $50... not bad


It may be worth to pay some extra for better quality;
Which I don't know how much that would be as I don't practice foundation anyway.
So I have no comment either way - no personal experience.
But anyway, flat pieces are way simpler to make if insist on home made foundation.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

msl said:


> Sorry, just fixed it... just got done with a 3 hour ATF inspection....of cource everything was just fine, but I am bit frazeled


I feel your pain, I had a type 20 (when there was such a thing) and the inspector really seemed to hate me. I finally did what they really wanted and surrendered my license.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Making wax foundation is quite a pain, and using molds will really make you feel that pain. With a roller you first have to make wax sheets which are hard and quite brittle, when you roll them they seem to soften up and are easier to work with, While in Slovenia I saw the assocotiatian guys using a special wax foundation machine to make foundation automatically, the local beekeepers bring in their wax and they make foundation for them. The slovenians also bring in their honey and the association also bottles and labels it for them and it is also sampled and the sample kept for so many years should ever a problem be claimed with that beekeepers honey. By the way I have re designed the queen rearing nucs to now have 5 small frames with a feeder on top as I was not all that happy with the system with the feeder at the back of 3 frames. At present I am working on myvaporizer parts as I was not very happy with the ammount of cleaning I had to do when using PETG so I have down loaded the Super Slicer program and am now gwtting much better prints.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

johno said:


> By the way I have re designed the queen rearing nucs to now have 5 small frames with a feeder on top as I was not all that happy with the system with the feeder at the back of 3 frames.


Have you shared that anywhere? Or would you? I understand if not, but it doesn't hurt to ask. 

In the original design, what's the purpose of the recessed hole in the bottom? As screen I guess? I didn't see a printed part for that so did you use just a regular screen?


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

msl said:


> hence the reason I have a cnc mill...
> AL from the scrap yard is $2 a pound, makes it far less panful when I botch a mold or product dezine


On the off chance you ever run out of ideas, I have plenty 


LBussy said:


> HBT? There have been a lot of homebrewed grain mills, and I've made some myself.


No, shamed to admit it was Permies and milling to eat not brew. Brew stuff just showed in my search.


crofter said:


> Graininess of surface may be a problem with sticking. You fellows into printing would know about that.


Suspect you are very correct on the sticking. This kills my latest idea of a custom knurling tool and knurling the pattern directly into an aluminum roller. No 3D printing or CNC machining... Labor of polishing all the burrs would far exceed either.


GregV said:


> as I don't practice foundation anyway.


A necessary evil when your starting out. Have posted the results of a whole box of foundation-less and it ain't pretty. Well until you spray paint it gold and hang it up in a museum


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

LBussy, I am not quite where I want to be with the mini nucs I have made, I would like to make then an inch deeper for a little more comb space. I have used some and the concept works fine but there is room for improvement. I am not a member of thingiverse, when I tried to sign up a few years ago I could not get it right so left it alone.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I understand (both.) I’d be more than happy to help with the Thingiverse part if you like. I’ll drop you a PM with my email address.


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## Marlowe (Dec 10, 2017)

Pic is a curler type of queen cell holder my niece made for me on her 3D printer. After cells are capped they are placed in the curler and then the tray is placed in incubator. Cost me a steak dinner is all. Cheap. Works great.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Here is my take on a mating nuc: Mini Mating Nuc by LBussy


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

nice


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Here's a Bee Escape for the WBC hive, as suggested by @sparkyApis.


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## ShelleyStuart (Jan 4, 2010)

LBussy said:


> Here is my take on a mating nuc: Mini Mating Nuc by LBussy


Wow. What's the estimated print time on that?


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

ShelleyStuart said:


> Wow. What's the estimated print time on that?


"Not insignificant." 

I just updated the model on Thingiverse to reduce the print time by several hours. Johno uses a 0.6mm nozzle and that is way faster. For those of us with the more common 0.4mm nozzle, well, we just are used to long print times. Each part prints best with slightly different settings which does impact print time. The way I have printed them so far, the following times apply:

Box: 1d3h33m
Outer Cover: 6h5m
Inner Cover: 4h27m (this is intended to be cut Plexi, but some may want to print it)
Foundationless frame: 2h (6h42m for four frames)
Feeder Float: 3h31m
Entrance Disk: 2h7m
Total: 2d2h26m
If you use cut Plexiglass as the inner cover (or just skip it) and a piece of screen or another float for the feeder, the total time is reduced to 1d18h27m.

Of course, this is just sitting there in the corner, printing stuff. It's not like the print time has a cost for a person who just has a printer for their personal use. If someone wanted to get one printed commercially, then it would start getting pricey.


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## SuiGeneris (Feb 13, 2018)

LBussy said:


> "Not insignificant."
> 
> Total: 2d2h26m


That's not bad at all. While unrelated, we're printing a microscope in my lab as we speak, and the largest part (which is printing now) is a 5 day, 2 hour print, that will require two filament exchanges during the print. To say I'm a tad nervous about that is an understatement.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I "load tested" my filament sensor a few times now (Prusa MK3S) and it worked. When I tried that with the previous version it resulted in a hot-end teardown.

I've never had a single print run over two days, so yours is a record as far as I'm concerned. 0.05mm resolution or something?


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## SuiGeneris (Feb 13, 2018)

I'm also on a MK3S. Never had an issue with the filament sensor. The long run is both a size thing (it fills almost all of the MK3S's print volume) and a lot of fine details needing a 0.1mm layer height.

Doubt its a record though - I've seen 10+ day prints being done by people over on the prusa forums. Big items + high-res = slow prints.


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

LBussy said:


> Here's a Bee Escape for the WBC hive,


That is the very thing. Thank you for taking the time to do that. FWIW the link to Thingiverse appears broken to me. I do not have a printer but I do have a concern that these may turn out to be the most expensive bee escapes in history.  
Sel.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

sparkyApis said:


> FWIW the link to Thingiverse appears broken to me.


I think I may have forgotten to hit the "publish" button. It should work now.



sparkyApis said:


> I do not have a printer but I do have a concern that these may turn out to be the most expensive bee escapes in history.


Well, I can't help you with the cost of a printer - I'm still fighting that battle at home. If you already own the printer, at $22 per Kilo, that works out to $0.09 per cone.


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

Sorry if that came across the wrong way, it is the cost of the printer I was referring to. I have been looking for an excuse to try 3D printing and this is another straw on the pile.

The link is OK now.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Oh I got ya. I mean if you want me to tell you that you’ll save money printing your own stuff I will. You just have to tell me beekeeping will make money.


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## SuiGeneris (Feb 13, 2018)

sparkyApis said:


> Sorry if that came across the wrong way, it is the cost of the printer I was referring to. I have been looking for an excuse to try 3D printing and this is another straw on the pile.
> 
> The link is OK now.


A printer can pay for itself quite quickly. The one I have at work I bought because it was cheaper to buy the printer and hire a student to do some CAD work (maybe $2K total) than it was to have a scientific supplier send out a technician and part to repair a piece of equipment ($10K-ish). Since them, I'd guess the printer has paid for itself at least 10 times over. Its amazing how many $10-$20 items you can make yourself, for less than a dollar of filament. And there's a whole community of people posting designs, so you don't even need CAD know-how to take advantage of it.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

In your environment, I have no doubt. At home, I _really_ need to stretch to justify it to the wife. Sitting here looking around I have printed the following at home:

Jig to drill holes for the pulls in our new cabinets (saved $7)
Replacement tray for the coffee scale (saved $4)
Cool Mario Brothers inspired stand for our Echo Dot (didn't really need it)
Tray to hold our remotes (saved $11)
KC Chiefs Coasters (let's call this one $5)
So there's $27 I saved in a couple of years. At $749 for a current kit, I only need to print $722 worth of additional home items to justify this to my CFO.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

For somebody starting out a Creality Ender with a print bed of 230mm x 230mm at a cost of around $200 will do quite well, or if you want a print bed of 300mm x 300mm a Creality CR 10 which would be a little more expensive but you could print nucs and hive boxes with a little ingenuity. I have 3 creality Enders, a CR 10 and a small printer that I cannot remember the name of. With these printers I have printed thousands of vaporizer components and many other things and I have never had a problem bar plugged nozzles and power failures during the night. I have never had any experience with CAD and started out with Fusion 360 and bumbled around until I had what I wanted, however Fusion 360 comes to a hobbiest at a year at a time and can also be purchased at a year at a time but the cost is so high that it is only feasable if you are using CAD constantly so I downloaded Freecad and managed to get around using that. Actually my son gave me the small printer when I started playing around and building an II setup for queen insemination and then also sent me my first Creality ender so that is how it all started.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I think the Creality line is great. It's also true that for a lot of these objects there's no reason to have ultra-fine detail. As a matter of fact, I'm using 0.20 "fast" mode to leave some texture on the parts to allow the bees to get a better grip.

I pay for being on the bleeding edge with Prusa, both in the hardware and software. I'm fine with that. It's the second one I've owned and I don't regret paying the money for either.


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## ShelleyStuart (Jan 4, 2010)

sparkyApis said:


> Sorry if that came across the wrong way, it is the cost of the printer I was referring to. I have been looking for an excuse to try 3D printing and this is another straw on the pile.
> 
> The link is OK now.


Check your library system. Our public library gives access to a Makerbot, Prusa and Flash Forge. I'm not in a particularly large metro area, either.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Explain to me how the cost of a super made in eight pieces would be $1500. I looked at getting some Apimaye supers but they wanted around $80 to $90 per box so I am working on printing my own and would like to get the print down to about 1 plus kilos by using foam inserts to lighten and insulate the boxes better. I have made some 4 frame nuc boxes weighing in at 1160 grams each assembled with 28 screws.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I'll print them for $1,499.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you are wondering about the $1500 references, its because of a [now] deleted post by what looked like a spammer who _also_ did a copy-n-paste job of a post from page 1 of this thread.

Bye . . . .


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