# Missouri Bees from a Walnut Tree, turned into log hive



## Serendipidity (Feb 3, 2013)

It would be best to set it on end in the original position as bees draw cells in a slightly upward position otherwise they might abscond. good luck!!


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## Bee Whisperer (Mar 24, 2013)

If it were me, even though it has been a few weeks since the tree toppled, I would stand it on end. I would do it as soon as possible and then remove the screen ASAP. They need to get out and find water and get their location figured out. The sooner, the better. I have moved them several miles and let them out the very next morning with no problem, so you should be fine. Wish I could see the log.  Post photos.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Bee Whisperer said:


> If it were me, even though it has been a few weeks since the tree toppled, I would stand it on end. I would do it as soon as possible and then remove the screen ASAP. They need to get out and find water and get their location figured out. The sooner, the better. I have moved them several miles and let them out the very next morning with no problem, so you should be fine. Wish I could see the log.  Post photos.


should be a photos link to Photo Bucket in my original post.

I've only been able to make the photo up loader on this site work once.

Hope it works.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Thanks.
That was my initial thought to get the comb cells right. I opened up the screen a bit, enough to give them room to get out. The smell of honey is strong. I have other hives and don't want robbing to go on. My guess is if they made it OK, the numbers are good enough to be able to protect themselves.
I'll open it up all the way in a couple days, and stand the log up. Wish I could see what's going on in there.


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

Personally, I would transfer them to a regular hive. I think you will have a much better chance of getting them through the winter. You can rubber band any usable comb to frames, and if they need feed it will be much easier to feed them.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

BeePappy said:


> I've only been able to make the photo up loader on this site work once..


Bee Pappy.. Maybe this will help.

Most common problem with failure to load, is the size of photo and file type. 

Check size before attempting to upload. If too large, a red X will appear in the upper right side of box. If too large, downsize and try again.

Site will only accept certain file types. jpg works best for me (and is a common type for most cameras). Photo type can be changed to jpg then upload.

When mine won't load, I get some kindergarden student to do it for me. HA!!

cchoganjr


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Bee Pappy.. Maybe this will help.
> 
> Most common problem with failure to load, is the size of photo and file type.
> 
> ...


Hi Cleo, thanks. Yes I re-size all digital images I create using professional caliber photo editing software. All are downsized to 72ppi at a max of 8" width. No more than 550k file size, RGB jpgs. I just tried another at a reduced size at 120k with the same results, I also tried a png (220k). I would suspect it's more browser issues. I use Firefox on a Mac 10.6.8 OS. The frustrating thing is I got it to work once. And from the posts I see on the site, I'm not the only one with issues.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m601/maxgrafixx/Loginplace.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m601/maxgrafixx/Log Hive from Missouri/jobdonemaybe.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m601/maxgrafixx/Log Hive from Missouri/screenonlog.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m601/maxgrafixx/Log Hive from Missouri/theentrance.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m601/maxgrafixx/Log Hive from Missouri/biglog.jpg


OK, hopefully these images upload OK from PB.
I was out of town for the last two days. Checked the log hive and it is still laying down as seen in photos. So now it has been 3 weeks plus. I've provided water nearby, and opened the scree just a bit from the bottom to keep some protection, and also allow them to get in and out.
There is a lot of "normal" activity going on now, they seem much calmer, seem to be going out and checking the new surroundings. Tell me again why it is best to stand the log back up versus just leaving it lay down like this. My fears are that when the tree came down, it hit the ground and could have dislodged the comb inside. Or maybe in transit it could have shifted.
Is this a real possibility?
Would they correct any internal problems with the comb position? 
If the consensus is to stand it up, then I'll do it. I just hate to get them riled up again. Maybe standing them up would be less stressful than I think. I have limited knowledge on a log hive and only first year beek, so input is appreciated. The log is pretty heavy, maybe 270+lbs.
Is there the proper amount of time (this season) to open the log, cut the comb out, strap into frames and have them rebuild in a box?
the distance from the hole to the bottom is about 40". We saw the end of the comb about 6" in from the bottom.

Thanks


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I would stand it up. I have done several of these over the years, and even if it has been down for a while, the combs were arranged from top to bottom and I would try to get it set back up the way it was.

That said, that is a good size log, and just maybe, they have rearranged the comb, tying it to the sides of the log. Could be a close call, but, guess I would go with standing it up.

cchoganjr


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## Bee Whisperer (Mar 24, 2013)

If you are concerned about any damage to the hive, you may have to open it up and frame the comb into a box hive. As short as that log looks, is it possible to remove the board and examine the comb? I have seen hives that have slammed to the ground when the tree toppled, and many were not even harmed; not sure why. So, the guessing, or the "could haves" and the what if's, are all speculative. Anything is possible, but not necessarily be probable. If you can't stand wondering, open it up and take care of it. 

The reason I am saying to stand it up is that obviously the bees originally found the tree standing upright and built their comb accordingly. If it was intact and full of brood or stores, those areas of comb may be still in use. If it has been damaged, they will eventually rebuild, but they chose the location at a time when the tree was vertical, not horizontal. My thought is, since you don't know if there is damage, why make them rebuild? They may have already started that process, but which would be easier for them to restore; their entire hive, or just the work from the past few weeks?

I think I would either stand it upright, or I would open it up and build a new hive with their comb tied into frames. Just saying what I would do and why.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Thanks guys.
I guess I could remove that bottom board to take a peek. There was a lot of debris, rotted log, probably animal stuff, etc. I could see before putting it on there.
My thoughts on how that would disturb them trumps my "need to know." The left side of my face got lit up pretty good from the one sting I got after I had the log in position, and decided to take off my gear. So I'm going to leave it buttoned up.

your reasoning makes sense to stand the log up. I think I'll make some sort of a brace to hold it up in case the way the bottom board is attached, throws the balance off.
I'll need to eat my Wheaties to get that thing to stand up, or maybe just stand it up off of the pallet.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

I got the log stood up on end this morning. First attempt the log went over and took me with it. So we both hit the ground. Needless to say that woke up the girls and they threw a reception for me. I had to walk away, then come back and take a second shot at it. Took all I had to get it stood up. The bees were hitting my veil and hat so hard I thought it was raining. I'm going to let them settle now. I'll post pics maybe after work tonight. This section is not the main trunk of the tree. This was part of a "Y". Currently their entry is 'cupped' up and would act like a funnel to rain and snow, etc. Makes me wonder if it possibly could have been on the underside or perhaps at an angle in it's previous natural positioning. I may need to build them some sort of a roof.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

BeePappy... Good idea to build something to help them out at the entrance, but, if you don't they will build their own system to divert water or snow if they have time before a big rain.

cchoganjr


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Here is a photo of the log on end now, and then a closeup of the girls on the entrance. The entrance is just below that branch nub. They're pretty active, and very protective. I was suited up and had one of the guard bees follow me over 100 ft. to the house.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Bee Pappy

I would definately configure something to divert rain. The way the log is standing looks like it would run right into the hive.

cchoganjr


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Bee Pappy
> 
> I would definately configure something to divert rain. The way the log is standing looks like it would run right into the hive.
> 
> cchoganjr


Thanks Cleo. That's what I was thinking. It would be my guess they built their home on the underside of that section of trunk, probably well protected from everything. I'd also guess this colony is pretty old considering the amount of debris at the base, the rot in the remainder of the tree, and other assorted clues.
As I had mentioned, the entrance forms a 'cup' that will catch all the run-off. Not fair to them as that's not how they engineered things.


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## rlsiv (Feb 26, 2011)

I do a lot of work with a couple of big arborist companies in St.Louis, and overwintered three log hives just like this. I screen closed their entrances before daylight, mark where I think the top/bottom of the hive is, they cut the log free and gently lower it onto my trailer with a crane. All three were too heavy for me to stand upright, so I laid them in a position that kept the comb running vertically (so turned about 90 degrees or less from its' original construction), covered the "extra" entrances with plywood (top/bottom/OtherBranches) that weren't existing before the log was cut free, and (if the original entrance is Open to rain/snow) put a "raised cover" over the entrance. Last year all three of my logs overwintered well, I cut them all out in April, and they all made extra honey this season. If possible, I'd prefer to stand them up and secure them at their "original" upright position, but they seem to be just fine if you treat them gently.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

rlsiv said:


> I do a lot of work with a couple of big arborist companies in St.Louis, and overwintered three log hives just like this. I screen closed their entrances before daylight, mark where I think the top/bottom of the hive is, they cut the log free and gently lower it onto my trailer with a crane. All three were too heavy for me to stand upright, so I laid them in a position that kept the comb running vertically (so turned about 90 degrees or less from its' original construction), covered the "extra" entrances with plywood (top/bottom/OtherBranches) that weren't existing before the log was cut free, and (if the original entrance is Open to rain/snow) put a "raised cover" over the entrance. Last year all three of my logs overwintered well, I cut them all out in April, and they all made extra honey this season. If possible, I'd prefer to stand them up and secure them at their "original" upright position, but they seem to be just fine if you treat them gently.


Thanks for that. We had thought of trying to catch a swarm from it in the spring, but a cut out sounds more feasible. How did you cut yours out? I had thought of driving steel wedges in to split it instead of a chainsaw, thought it might be a bit less intrusive. Any photos of your log hives?


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## rlsiv (Feb 26, 2011)

BeePappy said:


> Thanks for that. We had thought of trying to catch a swarm from it in the spring, but a cut out sounds more feasible. How did you cut yours out? I had thought of driving steel wedges in to split it instead of a chainsaw, thought it might be a bit less intrusive. Any photos of your log hives?


Usually if you look at the end of the log above and below the hive, you get a good idea of the thickness of the log "wall". I use a small chainsaw to cut a perforation ALMOST that deep, in a straight line the length of the log. I try not to cut all the way through to the hive. Then I roll the log 180 degrees, so my first cut is facing straight down, and do the same thing on the exact opposite side. Then I use several log splitting wedges, inserting them into that cut and tapping them in starting at one end and moving to the other. The most I've used is four wedges on a side (for a log about 10' long). When you tap those in one at a time, the log will start to split slowly on that side, from one end to the other. Then I roll it back over the first cut and do the same thing there, starting at the same end I did with the first pins. When you start putting those pins in, the log will split open and lay there like two dugout canoes. Then you handle it like a normal cutout, removing the comb as gently as possible, trying to locate the queen, etc.

I probably have picture or two of these on my website: www.fourridgebees.com 
Here is a pic that I just pulled off my website of one of them from earlier this year:


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Wow! That is very cool. I understand the process of removing the comb, rubber banding it into frames and all. The collection of the bees them selves and getting them into a box, do you use a vacuum? I do plan on building one this winter.


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## rlsiv (Feb 26, 2011)

I move a great deal of them as they're clinging to the comb, a lot more will move into the hive body if I find and cage the queen, and yes I do use a bee vac.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

It is my guess that if you build them a good watertight roof they will be fine until spring. Goldenrod should be blooming and is the last real good nectar flow for the bees.
If I had a hive like that, the Hogan trap out would be a permanent addition to the log hive!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

BeePappy said:


> Thanks for that. We had thought of trying to catch a swarm from it in the spring.


Rather than try to catch a swarm from it, trap starts from it. If they survive the Winter they are obviously survivors, good stock, and you could take 3 to 4 starts from it each year from now on. Great way to increase your hive count with survivor stock. If you haven't done a trapout, e-mail me at [email protected] and I will send you the instructions for a trapout for taking starts.

Cut outs work great also, but, if you cut them out, then it is a one hive, possible two, solution. If you can leave the tree in its current position, I would trap starts.

Good Luck.

cchoganjr


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Update to this log hive. I added in a roof to protect the log hive entrance from the weather (rain and snow). It also does shield them from a direct hit of the sun. We've had 9 straight days of 90º + temps here, so a lot of fanning going on. The roof seems to help. This hive has now been upright for nearly two weeks, and has been in our yard for 16 days. The bees are much more accustomed to us and are a lot less aggressive which is good.
I only fed them a few times to get them charged up. The other local hived joined in the "open feeding" used Boardmans on a nearby ladder, and a frenzy ensued. Not always friendly. I opened up the feeder mount by removing the back piece so it is like a tunnel. The first feeding, several bees got trapped in the back and didn't make it.
Anyway, here are some pics.


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## Bee Whisperer (Mar 24, 2013)

Cool. Are you going to hive them different next spring?


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Bee Whisperer said:


> Cool. Are you going to hive them different next spring?


Yes BW, the plan is to do trap starts from this log if they overwinter well. Mr. Hogan provided some good direction on how to accomplish this. It does make sense to be able to get at least a few starts off this one colony, and keep the log in tact for awhile. His link is in one of the above posts to this thread. We have another log hive that we could do the same thing, although it already has a box on the top of it, and the bees are slowly moving in.


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## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

Every bee tree that I tried to "rescue" after falling had the comb collapsed and was pretty much a total loss. I've decided I'm not going to mess with fallen bee trees unless there is a $350+ check after everything is cleaned up. They've all (4) been a mess inside but I do have one sitting in my bee yard that does seem to be thriving. One we did yesterday as an impromptu bee club demonstration had absconded and we realized after starting to do some cutting that there weren't nearly enough bees anymore. The robbed out and chewed up comb when we got to the top of the hive was a testament to that. FORTUNATELY, the sun was shining just right and I was watching the bees as they flew away landed on the swarm 25' up in a nearby white pine. One of our helpers works for the power company and the shop was a mile away and got is a 35' telescoping hot stick with a bucket taped to it to catch the swarm. Second was a 36" oak tree (at the base) that was dead and felled for firewood. The colony was 30' up and all the comb was smashed to pieces from the impact. We had a Stihl 039 with 24" bar that was just barely enough to cut the **** thing open. A lot of work yesterday with nothing really of value.


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

DLMKA said:


> Every bee tree that I tried to "rescue" ... lot of work yesterday with nothing really of value.


Sorry to hear that DLMKA. I wondered about 'dropping' sections of tree from high up how much damage would be done. I have one in line for next spring that is 30' up, in a 16" dia. section. It's several years old, the owner has seen many swarms come from this colony. My thought was to take off the top of the branch section, then put rope around it which goes down to a truck or tractor, cut the hive section lose, let it drop and swing and then lower it to the ground. This one won't weigh near as much as that Walnut.
The Walnut did fall, but perhaps only a few feet, and the top section of tree would have cushioned it somewhat. The tree trunk was off the ground until I cut it lose, and dropped it about 1'. I'm sure the comb was disrupted. They did rob out a hive when I got them here to home, but seemed to take only what they needed if that's possible. I fed them hard for a few days thinking they could re-build inside. Now they would appear to be acting like a 'normal' log hive. I see them bringing in pollen, and their numbers are better than my two Lang hives.


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## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

If it's lowered down (and I see it lowered) I don't mind doing it but trees cut down or fallen in storms I'm not messing with them anymore without getting paid. Not worth an entire Saturday on the business end of a chainsaw.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

If you have some one operating the chain saw who will cut a little at a time, and let the tree fall slowly, I have found that you can save the bees, most of the time. (Not always, some trees fall so violently that the comb is destroyed and the bees abscond). 

For years, I got calls from a local logger who wanted the log that wasn't hollow, but, wanted me to remove the bees, and he was very good at falling the trees, then I would cut above where I thought the hollow ended, and he would then get a log or two above the bees. He would then take the dozer and load the log for me. I would take the log to the bee yard and set it back up like it was, using the loader on the tractor. I would then trap bees from the logs until they died out. (they normally die out because I took the queen, and the log did not make a new one). I have several hollow logs laying around the yard. I have never had a swarm go back into one of the vacant logs. So, apparently, they are not good swarm boxes.

If you think the comb is mangled or destroyed, then split the log in halves, remove the bees, save any good brood, attach to frames, remove all honey and tree residue from the area, leave the box overnight, next morning move the bees to your yard.

Most often, you will lose a lot of bees that are drenched in honey, no way to survive. But, you can normally get enough bees to make a good hive.

cchoganjr


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I would then trap bees from the logs until they died out. (they normally die out because I took the queen ...
> cchoganjr


What would determine whether or not the remaining colony makes a new queen if you take the queen in a trap start?
Time of year, strength of remaining colony, amount of stores - all of above?

Just guessing,
Thanks.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

BeePappy.... Absolutely essential in making a queen is a viable egg, or multiple viable eggs in the feral source. (tree, log) 

Also whether the (or multiple) virgin queens successfully return to the feral colony after mating, I.E. did not get lost, or get eaten by a bird etc. 

Also dependent on how quick the feral colony realizes they are queenless. If the queen has been in your box for four or five days, laying eggs, then you remove the box (or frames), with the queen, all the eggs in the feral source, (tree, log), may no longer be viable to make a queen.This is probably the most likely reason the tree, log, colony dies.

In Spring there are normally a lot of open brood from which they can make a new queen. As Summer comes on, there are fewer and fewer. Also all of the above. (time of year, strength of colony, amount of stores)

cchoganjr


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## rsderrick (May 7, 2006)

Enjoyed reading about this. Thanks for the photos as well.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Here is one I am doing now.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

2 more


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## BeePappy (Apr 13, 2013)

Honeyman,
These are both "trap starts" in process?
How's it going so far?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

honeyman46408

Your bee yard looks a little like mine. Empty logs laying around, where bees have been moved into hives.

cchoganjr


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## ryandebny (Apr 17, 2010)

I had a similar reduce after sandy. I put empty honey supers over the trunk and an upper and lower entrance, and out cover. I used polystyrene on the bottom. It worked well until the rats chewed through the foam. Since you have wood on the bottom it should work well for you.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

> I used polystyrene on the bottom. It worked well until the rats chewed through the foam


 the bees will chew foam out too


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