# How to fix cross comb?



## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Hey, y'all,

the girls made some pretty bad cross comb, three bars involved. If I tried to separate them I am fairly certain half a comb would drop immediately. I've been reluctant to deal with it because, well all the other combs are okay in front and behind, and being that there is no strong flow right now, I would hate to make them build new comb.

What would you?? And I mean how do you fix cross comb??

thanks,
Thomas


----------



## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

The only cure for cross / kinky comb is to get rid of it........or have a serious 'come to Jesus' talk with the bees.


----------



## NCGrimbo (Dec 15, 2016)

The first two combs on one of my hives got cross combed several times. To fix it, I cut all the crossed comb off along with about 1" of the comb prior to where it started to cross. I cleaned up the bars so that there wasn't any wax from the crossed area. This left about 3" or 4" of bar without any comb or wax on both bars. Since they seemed to like to cross it here, I turned one bar around so that the blank area was reversed. In the two weeks since I did this, the bees have filled in both bar's blank spaces without any crossing.


----------



## Delta 21 (Mar 4, 2016)

Very gently. The heat is building. 

Use a coupla of long bread knives or spatulas to smoosh it back straight after you trim off the wild parts. They can take a mess of wadded up comb and work wonders with it, sometimes 2 or 3 adjustments over a few days will convince them. You can cut the crossed comb off and leave the rest if its straight, or make several 'relief cuts' in the comb, not all the way through, where you can bend it around where you need it. Use toothpicks to hold it place until the bees work it. Maybe jockey the position of a bar or two, or flip 180 degrees, to compensate for the bend where they want to make the comb into the free space next to the existing comb.


----------



## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

do fix it now, or remove it. sometimes you can mush it back into shape and place it between straight comb. Sometimes, you only have to carve off the wonky stuff and leave the straight stuff. That's the nice part about foundationless, you can cut and carve as needed. Don't leave it in the hive. If you have to take large sections off, then use painters tape to create a sling to hold it back onto a new bar and let the bees re-attach it.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The most important thing is the the last comb (where the next comb will be built next to it) is straight and on the bar. If you can put the three cross combed ones out of the way somewhere you can minimize the issues. Or move them to the far end with a straight drawn comb next to them and wait for the bees to fill them with honey...


----------



## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

I fixed some in a lang super last year using the "breadknife and smush and twist" method. Cut between the bars with the knife, and then twist each 1 inch section into/onto the bar.

Crosscomb:

BAR: ===|===|===
cut here and then twist each comb
Bar: ===|===|=== 

Repaired Comb:

BAR: ===_===_===
BAR: ===_===_===

You will still have somewhat wavy comb, but at least it will be following the bars.


----------



## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Hi, Ruth,

I don't think I understand the painters taper sling thing, does it go all the way around the comb and bar?



ruthiesbees said:


> do fix it now, or remove it. sometimes you can mush it back into shape and place it between straight comb. Sometimes, you only have to carve off the wonky stuff and leave the straight stuff. That's the nice part about foundationless, you can cut and carve as needed. Don't leave it in the hive. If you have to take large sections off, then use painters tape to create a sling to hold it back onto a new bar and let the bees re-attach it.


----------



## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Yunzow said:


> Hi, Ruth,
> 
> I don't think I understand the painters taper sling thing, does it go all the way around the comb and bar?


yes, I like to slice the comb so there is a straight edge to butt up against the comb guide (letting it warm up in the sun makes it easier too). Mush it onto the comb guide as best you can and then wrap 2 pieces of tape around the bar and comb. I like to start and stop the tape where the ends will get pinched between the bars when I slide them together. That way, the tape doesn't come undone. These are some photos of a mentee of mine. I don't have any here at work to post to illustrate.


----------



## friendlywithbears (Feb 6, 2017)

+1 to Michael's suggestion. If the damage has been done, it's built comb and would be a shame to waste it if you can put it somewhere they'll fill with honey and won't cause more cross combing.


----------



## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

With this particular strategy, would it make sense to wait until they are having a surplus, even wait until next spring for example? For example, there are currently two mostly empty honey combs at the far end of the hive because the girls have eaten the capped honey from the spring during the dearth after the flow.

The "good" thing about the situation is that they built straight comb on either side of the three crossed combs, so it is having no effect on any new combs at all.



friendlywithbears said:


> +1 to Michael's suggestion. If the damage has been done, it's built comb and would be a shame to waste it if you can put it somewhere they'll fill with honey and won't cause more cross combing.


----------



## friendlywithbears (Feb 6, 2017)

If it's empty and it won't hurt them taking the comb, I'd probably just remove it now and let them rebuild good comb.

But I have had situations where it's been surrounded as you say and so really isn't bothering anybody but me, so I end up leaving it until I can extract it with honey. In those cases I'd mark the bars so I don't accidentally ruin things...again...


----------



## Delta 21 (Mar 4, 2016)

If the queen eyes it (it is virgin wax) and lays in it then you really wont want to get rid of it then because it will impact the numbers of the workers, but it will be smack in the middle of your brood nest.

My bees/queen had 4 frames crossed up and laid full of brood and it took me 7 months to get that mess out of the hive.


----------



## friendlywithbears (Feb 6, 2017)

Slightly on topic: what do you folks do when they expand comb with honey to be too wide for the bar? I had a problem this year for the first time where, anytime I added empty bars, rather than building new comb, they expanded the comb on either side to fill the space.

Once it was filled with honey I didn't want to just cut it back to width, as last time I did that I drowned a ton of bees. I now have a few frames like this, and I've just put empty bars between them for spacers.

Here's an example:


----------



## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

friendlywithbears said:


> Slightly on topic: what do you folks do when they expand comb with honey to be too wide for the bar? I had a problem this year for the first time where, anytime I added empty bars, rather than building new comb, they expanded the comb on either side to fill the space.
> 
> Once it was filled with honey I didn't want to just cut it back to width, as last time I did that I drowned a ton of bees. I now have a few frames like this, and I've just put empty bars between them for spacers.
> 
> ...


The reason this is happening is because you put bars between combs that had open cells with nectar. In this situation they are inclined to just extend the cells into the open space. Best not to place blank bars between combs with open nectar. It really isn't off topic as this is exactly the same reason combs start to curve off of the bars as they build the nest outward. Each new comb gets pushed a bit further off one bar to the next. The type of guide can make all the difference. Deep wedge bars or bars with a minimum 1" foundation starter strip across the full length of the bar are the best for avoiding combs curving and eventually becoming cross comb. Still you may need to butter back cell walls before they are capped and move newer combs back between drawn combs to get the best results.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>what do you folks do when they expand comb with honey to be too wide for the bar? 

I make two sizes of bars and use the 1 1/2" as soon as the bees start building fat combs. 1/4" spacers would also be useful to add enough to get them back on center for the next bar.


----------



## friendlywithbears (Feb 6, 2017)

Delta Bay said:


> The reason this is happening is because you put bars between combs that had open cells with nectar. In this situation they are inclined to just extend the cells into the open space. Best not to place blank bars between combs with open nectar. It really isn't off topic as this is exactly the same reason combs start to curve off of the bars as they build the nest outward. Each new comb gets pushed a bit further off one bar to the next. The type of guide can make all the difference. Deep wedge bars or bars with a minimum 1" foundation starter strip across the full length of the bar are the best for avoiding combs curving and eventually becoming cross comb. Still you may need to butter back cell walls before they are capped and move newer combs back between drawn combs to get the best results.


This is very helpful. I think I will have to look at how my spacing strategy has changed this year, as it has not been a problem for me until now. Perhaps spacing in the brood nest rather than adding space to combs that are actively being filled will help prevent this.


----------



## friendlywithbears (Feb 6, 2017)

Michael Bush said:


> >what do you folks do when they expand comb with honey to be too wide for the bar?
> 
> I make two sizes of bars and use the 1 1/2" as soon as the bees start building fat combs. 1/4" spacers would also be useful to add enough to get them back on center for the next bar.


Until now the bars I've had were middle of the road 1 3/8", which I am very much realizing is not helpful whatsoever. I do now have 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" bars, and will hope this helps going forward!


----------



## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Hi, Delta, 

could you tell me more about your experiences with deep wedge bars or the 1"
starter strips? I got to thinking about such bars because of the advertising for the cathedral hives, the bars have deep wedges, this has something to do with less likely to squish bees. I did post another thread about that specifically, one guy said that he found the deeper foundation strips were less stable. I can't recall if he specified the depth being more than 1" or no....



Delta Bay said:


> The reason this is happening is because you put bars between combs that had open cells with nectar. In this situation they are inclined to just extend the cells into the open space. Best not to place blank bars between combs with open nectar. It really isn't off topic as this is exactly the same reason combs start to curve off of the bars as they build the nest outward. Each new comb gets pushed a bit further off one bar to the next. The type of guide can make all the difference. Deep wedge bars or bars with a minimum 1" foundation starter strip across the full length of the bar are the best for avoiding combs curving and eventually becoming cross comb. Still you may need to butter back cell walls before they are capped and move newer combs back between drawn combs to get the best results.


----------



## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> could you tell me more about your experiences with deep wedge bars or the 1"


I haven't had to start a colony from scratch (all undrawn combs) in a number of years so haven't had any issues with cross or curving combs. With the foundation starter, it acts as a barrier against the mid rib being curved off center. What you can end up with though are combs having shallow depth cells on one side of the comb and over extended cells on the other. What the foundation strip does for you is maintain the mid rib centered on the bars even if when the comb has been drawn as above. The foundation starters are limiting to how far the cell walls can be extended. A 1" exposed depth seems to be the minimum for best results as it is the curving of the mid rib or pushing the mid rib off center that turns into crossed combs. Buttering back over extended cell walls before the honey is capped is sometimes necessary and can also be shuffled back between straight and more desirable combs. The deep wedged bars seem to have the same effect but I still prefer the foundation starters that I make from saved wax.
For me the foundation starter strip made all the difference in having combs drawn the way I wanted the bees to draw their comb. To the point that for several years I can manage my colonies with only 3 or 4 hive openings per year.


----------

