# Affordable beekeeping



## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

Hmmmm....


----------



## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

No thanks! I'll put that $189 toward another hive.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

Maybe part of the cost is to cover their recent legal fees and fines...............I dunno..


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

Beekeeping bubble.


----------



## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



GLOCK said:


> Beekeeping bubble.


You're not kidding. I definitely see the fad thing going on here. But classes through the local extension are $10!


----------



## dirt road (Jan 4, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

Granted, $189.00 is quite a bit of money, but this is one hobby that can get breathtakingly expensive in a hurry. Most people who become interested in bees, don't have a well equipped woodworking shop, or a suit or any of the varied tools that wind up in most beekeepers' tool box, and don't have any idea where a good spot is to set a swarm trap, if they had one. Add up a package of bees, a suit w/veil, and the beginners kit that the supply houses will almost always steer newbies toward, a couple of the books available everywhere, and you are going to be well north of 189 bucks before you get your first sting. It may not help that on all of the available forums, when a question is asked by anyone they will get 13 different opinions for every dozen responses. Certainly not for everyone, and I won't be spending the money to subscribe, but I think it might be an excellent resource for some, and well worth the price.


----------



## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

For that price I could meet up with ODfrank and Charlie, buy their lunches and pick their brains for a wealth of hands on knowledge and still be money ahead.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

Thats PENN STATE they try to cash in on anything they can. I own a business in state college{20years} and it's all about the campus and it's money.
If PENN STATE does not get a chunck it don't happen in STATE COLLEGE. But thank god for that college or i'd have to sell alot of honey to make what that town gives me.
Plus i do beleave they have a nice Department of Entomology and they are working to help the bee's but they are not getting any money from me i think 189.00 for the basic bee keeping knowledge is kinda steep . Join a bee club much cheaper and ya have some hands on . I say just buy 3 hives jump in and swim or drown and read all you can you'll get it and you'll know with in 2 years if beekeeeping is for you.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

By comparison the Minnesota course is only $25!

http://beelab.umn.edu/Education/Public_Courses/Healthy_Bees/index.htm

Rusty


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

It is a bit pricey, but, I believe the biggest factor in newbee dissatisfaction and failure, is "lack of knowledge" If you are just starting, beekeeping is a lot like any other new enterprise. There is so much more to beekeeping than just buying a veil and a smoker, and so much of beekeeping is very time sensitive. If it needs to be done, it needs to be done now to preclude additional damage.

It is pricey, but, get the knowledge somewhere, before you become discouraged and just give up on beekeeping, or spend a ton of money.

cchoganjr


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> It is a bit pricey, but, I believe the biggest factor in newbie dissatisfaction and failure, is "lack of knowledge" If you are just starting, beekeeping is a lot like any other new enterprise.


A newbie doesn't need any knowledge that he/she has to pay for. All the newbie needs is determination and a small investment. 
Here is my question to the forum pointed at commercial operations: Would you pay someone more that has taken this class or would you rather teach this person yourself starting at a lower wage? Once this question is answered then we can determine if the 189 bucks is worth it.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

The first thing I look for in an employee is honesty, then a strong work ethic, previous beekeeping experience, physical strength, pleasing personality, intelligence, drivers license, the flexibility to be away from home for up to a few weeks at a time..........hmmmm I haven't gotten to formal online bee education yet......it's way down there somewhere. Pay more? Yeah right.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

Shopping for an education is a lot like shopping for a car. Prices vary for a wide range of reasons. One example of cost of education is a course in Instrumental Insemination. U.C. Davis wants $950 for the entire course. II and Advanced II. Plus you provide your own instrument. Some students provide their own microscope. But where else are you going to get the training? And if you do get it somewhere else was it worth getting.

On the other hand. They need to do a lot more to support that their course is with a plug nickle. I want to see the results that are achieved by those that have taken the course. Do people come out of the course better than average beekeepers and if so is it $189 better?


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



Acebird said:


> A newbie doesn't need any knowledge that he/she has to pay for. All the newbie needs is determination and a small investment.
> Here is my question to the forum pointed at commercial operations: Would you pay someone more that has taken this class or would you rather teach this person yourself starting at a lower wage? Once this question is answered then we can determine if the 189 bucks is worth it.


You are right determination is a big facter if you don't love beekeeping you will fail.

I jumped in with no help at all from a mentor or classes .
I learned everything from /books/beesorce/ the other forums/web sites/hands on/ .
The first year was a failure 2 hives both died out my falt seconed year bought 3 nucs all made it throught winter and got alittle honey made queens and splits caught swarms{mine i'm quessing} i now have 13 hives and 2 nucs going in to winter and there all heavy and health.
This coming year i'll will learn more about swarming and a better SPM thats for sure. And the varroa destructor my main concern trying to stay chemical free so far so good. So ya see ya learn more and more the longer you stick to it but ya have to love it and ya don't need a course thats just another way for people to make money.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



jim lyon said:


> The first thing I look for in an employee is honesty, then a strong work ethic, previous beekeeping experience, physical strength, pleasing personality, intelligence, drivers license, the flexibility to be away from home for up to a few weeks at a time..


I now have a fall back plan! I rank high in your first three, a bit lower on the forth, 5th & 6th - you decide (heheh), in the same rank with the first three for 7, if timed right, my wife would welcome your last requirement. Am I hired?


----------



## Gord (Feb 8, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

I'm a great fan of education, but beekeeping is an art as well as a science.
I went for an afternoon session at a local apiary ($40), joined some beekeeping forums, and read all I could find.
The apiary afternoon gave me minimal hands on, but I became sure I wanted to get into it.

You don't get that through a correspondance course, and you have to keep abreast of news/trends/developments in the field anyway.
I'd rather take a more advanced course now that I have a couple of years in; I think my money would be better spent.
The art part comes from doing; the science through reading/study.
You need both.


PS I don't claim to be an artist, or scholar w/r/t bees. Getting a hive is more like a license to learn.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



Barry said:


> I now have a fall back plan! I rank high in your first three, a bit lower on the forth, 5th & 6th - you decide (heheh), in the same rank with the first three for 7, if timed right, my wife would welcome your last requirement. Am I hired?


. 
Well the fact that your wife might welcome the last requirement makes me wonder about number five. But what the hey as the old drill instructors would say drop yer......errrr I mean grab your hive tool lets get some work done.  On the other hand you just might be better suited to fixing up the old money pit than putting up with the likes of our crew for very long though.


----------



## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



GLOCK said:


> The first year was a failure 2 hives both died out my falt


Not defending this particular course...but...

What did you pay for those bees? Since it was your fault, if you had taken a class, maybe they wouldn't have died and you'd have saved the money of replacing bees plus made honey the second year....education is an investment, not a one-time cost.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



libhart said:


> Not defending this particular course...but...
> 
> What did you pay for those bees? Since it was your fault, if you had taken a class, maybe they wouldn't have died and you'd have saved the money of replacing bees plus made honey the second year....education is an investment, not a one-time cost.


Yes i did pay more then the course is but what i learned from those two failed hives made me a better beekeeper and plus there's alot of people that there first year{even with a course} is not good but the hands on is well worth the bee's and like i said i had 100 percent survival last year and well 15 hives going into this winter with no dinkys so will see how spring is.
The bee's i made this year alone made up for the bee's i lost and the problems i had and i had a few made me even a better beekeeper.
I now don't have to buy bee's/queens /honey just have to raise bee's all learned from books/net/hands on/
How much can a course realy teach you that a book or internet and hands on can't? I know i have alot to learn but i bet that course could not teach me anything and if it did i bet it would not be much.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

I wouldn't compare a forum to an organized course. 

Some people have the money and time to benefit from an online course and their questions could possibly be answered by Maryann Frazier. On a forum there's no telling who's responding to ones questions. Having read two or three books would help someone to muck out the good answers on a forum. My first beekeeping book was the one used in the University of Delaware's credited beekeeping course and their online course, Dewey Caron's "Beekeeping and Honey Bee Biology". 

BOOKS are important in my opinion.

Attending a class in person is not an option for many so an online course is an affordable (with two f's) option.


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

So for 189 bucks ya get to reed a bunch of stuff on line and watch a bunch of online videos?? Reed some books watch some u tube vids buy some bees and save some bucks.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

"affordable" is a relative term. 

Some people buy from Bee-Commerce, they can afford to... http://bee-commerce.com


----------



## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I guess simply buying a beginner's book, a starter outfit from Dadant or Kelley's, then one of the "bibles" is passe' now... in this modern, technologically expensive age. Heck, I don't even own a bee suit. opcorn:


----------



## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

BeeCurious said:


> "affordable" is a relative term.
> 
> Some people buy from Bee-Commerce, they can afford to... http://bee-commerce.com


Bang! Those _are_ some high prices! I have his "Dummies" book, but, wow I never saw his website. His book references himself for buying equipment, so maybe the book is right in being titled "Beekeeping for _Dummies_"! Nothing at all against the author (Mr. Howland Blackiston). Really a decent beginners book.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I am only going to make two comments, then back out of this discussion.

1. If newbees do not need education, then why would anyone go to college.

2. If you can learn everything by experimenting and reading, I really want to talk to my Doctor, the next time I visit him. How did he become qualified to diagonose and treat me.

cchoganjr


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

Beekeeping and doctoring ain't the same thing. Ya need a collage course to keep chickens??? Grow a garden???


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

As stated above , no additional comment.

cchoganjr


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Can you keep bees, grow a garden or keep chickens without a college course? Sure. Can you do it better with a college course. Well that is questionable, But possible. Now go breed chickens with 12 inch saddle hackle that are dry fly quality. You ain't gonna do that with any trial and error. So a lot of it is what you consider good enough.


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Another observation. The U. of MN course "Beekeeping in Northern Climes" is $150 for 2 days in March, taught by Marla Spivak and Gary Reuter. 
http://www.beelab.umn.edu/Education/Public_Courses/Beekeeping_Short_Course/index.htm

This last few years it has booked up and sold out early. I don't believe it would have sold out if priced wrong.


----------



## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

To be honest, before internet I would have bought a book to learn about beekeeping.............wait, I did buy a book, "beekeeping for dummies". I also got a book from the "first hive" package I got, it was a Dadant book. I read both of them cover to cover. Then I discovered this site and others and Youtube and they all opened my eyes and I learned everything that a person needs to know to keep bees in a basic way. 

Now, if I wanted to learn specialty things like AI queens, I would take a course. If I wanted to turn beekeeping into a business as my sole income, I would take a business class AND work for a commercial guy for a year to learn short cuts and what I need and dont need.

Most people learn better from books (a harmless jab at engineers!) but I learn things a lot better from hands on experience whether I try myself, or learn from someone with experience.

Would I pay $189 for an online beekeeping course, no way!! Would I pay $189 to watch a commercial guy work his hives and solve issues........heck ya!! Again back to the hands on visual learning thing I have!!


----------



## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

All Beekeepers that I have meet *so far *have been more than happy to teach for free!


----------



## trykonxlgold85 (Feb 7, 2012)

sfisher said:


> All Beekeepers that I have meet *so far *have been more than happy to teach for free!


I'll second that. I would never put anyone down for trying to learn but why pay if you do not have to? Join a club you will find lot of teachers not just one opinion you will get from taking formal class. The club I belong to has one of only seven(I think 7) master beekeepers in PA and I have been out to his apiary and I have his number for any question I have


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

In the "beginning" I'm sure cavemen went to college to learn everything. 
We (human race) learned from trial and error all along to educate ourselves. College is just a place to learn from those who receive a higher level of education than ourselves.
Trust me..... college professors can learn quite a bit from the old timers on this site. Hands on education you cannot learn from any book.
BTW, I'm starting an online class myself. For as little as $99.95 I will provide you with a link to this online site. lol


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

I read a post just a while back from a member that had a mentor that gave them horrible advice at almost every turn. resulting in a disastrous first year. Eventually that mentor abandoned the beekeeper all together. For a while that person was at risk of giving up. Courses that are paid for improve both qualification of the teacher and accountability. Willingness to teach does not make you a teacher. Heck, having a teaching position does not make you a teacher either but at least then you can have them removed.

Reading works to a degree, but only for those that can read. not everyone can. not everyone's eyes put things together they same way. A dyslexic person eyes re arrange the order of the symbols used in writing. "A" is a symbol that represents a sound in speech. For many it may randomly look like V. an L will look like 7. a Y may very well look like h.

Vub ly3n il q3Is rea77 coufnsiuq.

How does it work for you? Yes the above says something and it is just a mild form of what a dyslexic person might see. It represents only two of three visual orientation issues they might have.
Then you have those that simply cannot learn from a book.


----------



## trykonxlgold85 (Feb 7, 2012)

Danial you are correct not everyone can learn by reading and not everyone is quilified to teach but I think no one is quilified to teach beekeeping except the bees just look how many opinions are out there who says that the class instructor's opinion is correct?


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I've paid to attend EAS the past few years and on the other end I'm now involved with pricing for our local bee school. I'm not rushing out to sign up for the Penn State Course, but if I should and perhaps learn something that makes me a better beekeeper, than I will have gotten my money's worth.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

trykonxlgold85 said:


> Danial you are correct not everyone can learn by reading and not everyone is quilified to teach but I think no one is quilified to teach beekeeping except the bees just look how many opinions are out there who says that the class instructor's opinion is correct?


From what I can tell there area lot of people out there that have made up their minds about many things. all mostly incorrect. And I am talking about bees and beekeeping. If in fact it was known what was correct. we would not bee seeing the problems that we are.

Realizing that current methods are incorrect does not by default give us the answers. What bothers me is the hard headed determination not only for a generation but for decades that these obviously mistaken methods are defended as the way to do it.

Cavemen? Is that really relevant? Sadly it is. I see much that is seriously defended about beekeeping because it would be dishonoring to some guy that figured something out 120 years ago. What I find dishonoring is that not many have taken up his real contribution. and that is figuring out the next best way.
I don't think Doolittle is much offended that we stopped using a candles while grafting. But he does include comments on them in his instructions.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>> '...all mostly incorrect...', '...obviously mistaken methods...'

really dan? those seem like pretty extreme statements to me.

please enlighten us, how have you with so little experience come so quickly to determine that generations of beekeepers with years of practice have gotten in so wrong.

please, when you figure out the 'correct' way, share it with the rest of us, so that we will no longer be 'mistaken'.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> please enlighten us, how have you with so little experience come so quickly to determine that generations of beekeepers with years of practice have gotten in so wrong.
> 
> please, when you figure out the 'correct' way, share it with the rest of us, so that we will no longer be 'mistaken'.


Are you getting a little bit _sarcastic _here, _squarepeg_? :scratch:



squarepeg said:


> what's the point? forgive me for saying so, but if are you trying to make yourself look good by making somebody else look bad, it's not working.


:digging:


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> 1. If newbees do not need education,


Where did you get this idea from?



> then why would anyone go to college.


To be initiated into the corporate world otherwise it is not necessary. Most of the learning of my profession had nothing to do with my formal education.



> Most people learn better from books (a harmless jab at engineers!)


Apparently you don't know too many engineers. They predominantly learn from tinkering and failures more than any other profession.

Daniel explained how people learn. It is not the book that matters it is the written language that may or may not get passed on to the reader. Visual aids have always been used. In a book all you can illustrate is a still photo or a sketch. A book cannot compete with the internet that is capable of video illustration and sound when it comes to learning.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

If I gave the impression that formal instruction whether it be Internet or classroom based is a waste of money, let me clarify. I think these classes are probably real good primers for prospective beekeepers who are trying to grasp the basics, are they worththe money? I suppose only the student could answer that at the end of the class. I responded to the question of how an employer would view a prospective applicants ability to be an effective employee. In that context some sort of diploma would mean far less than the qualities I mentioned. 
As someone who has literally 10's of thousands of hours logged in a beeveil through the past 40+ years I have still learned a lot on here and some of it from highly observant folks with far less experience than I. There is a wealth of information available on a forum such as this but one of the great distractions is sorting out the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Posters with virtually no experience at all are given as much "podium time" as those who can relate decades of experience. To someone just coming on here it can all be a bit overwhelming trying to grasp who really knows of what they speak and who simply regurgitates second hand information available to anyone capable of a google search. I don't have much trouble making the separation but it bothers me that many inexperienced posters struggle to figure out who is who.
In a learning environment whether it be in a bee yard under the employment of a commercial beekeeper or in a classroom setting where you are listening to a professor's lecture you are in an environment where it is understood that listening and learning is what students do. Employers and instructors will gladly listen to respectful and probing questions but long winded talks about why they are in error would never be tolerated for long.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

you're right rader, touche'.

please forgive me dan, i should have waited until i had my coffee.

let me rephrase,

does anyone else think that beekeeping practices are 'all mostly incorrect', and that methods are for the most part 'obviously mistaken'?


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> In a learning environment whether it be in a bee yard under the employment of a commercial beekeeper or in a classroom setting where you are listening to a professor's lecture you are in an environment where it is understood that listening and learning is what students do.


For most things this is true but with beekeeping there are too many contradictions at the Professor or Employer level. This is why a forum discussion often results in a debate. As a newbie this is good. As a professor or an employer it may not be so good.



> Employers and instructors will gladly listen to respectful and probing questions but long winded talks about why they are in error would never be tolerated for long.


Employers will have their employees do it their way right or wrong. Hopefully you can see the distinction between an employee and a forum member. Instructors (at the college level) are concerned with completing a syllabus on time. It is less of a concern at the college level that the student succeeds.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Acebird...Correct..I don't know too many engineers, I don't know too many beekeepers, in fact I don't know too much of anything, and never will, because I will listen and learn from others. The word "too" is the operative word here.

cchoganjr


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



Acebird said:


> A newbie doesn't need any knowledge that he/she has to pay for. All the newbie needs is determination and a small investment.


"small investment " Are you referring to "one thin dime"?

Or, as an engineer, have you learned from your mistake?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Acebird...Correct..I don't know too many engineers, I don't know too many beekeepers, in fact I don't know too much of anything. The word "too" is the operative word here.


Cleo, maybe its time to repost your original comment from the "wax" thread ...


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



BeeCurious said:


> Or, as an engineer, have you learned from your mistake?


I have learned plenty from my mistakes just not in this case. There wasn't anything to learn.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> you're right rader, touche'.


Squarepeg, actually I agree 100% with your *original *comment. I just couldn't pass up an opportunity to illustrate the old parable about "_the shoe being on the other foot_". 

Perhaps we can agree to move on and jointly "_fight the forces of ignorance wherever we find them_".


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



Acebird said:


> I have learned plenty from my mistakes just not in this case. There wasn't anything to lean.


"There wasn't anything to lean"

OK, I think I understand.


----------



## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Acebird, I know a lot of engineers, both at work and in my personal life. Ya, not all of them think that what is written in a book or formulated on a computer is gospel or WILL WORK, but the ones I deal with at work tell us to do things a certain way and when we tell them it wont work because of this problem or that, they insist on it until we physically show them why it wont work. 

Engineers like yourself push their agendas and ideas without having actual hands on experience, and in that they fail to see what problems could arise and will arise. Example, you have a couple of hives, yet you consider yourself a bee expert and flood this site with comments on something you have no hands on experience with, which makes you look dumb. You might be the smartest person on here crunching numbers and using scientific formulas, but your hands on experience is lacking and in my book that could spell trouble to a person taking your advise, yet you sit there and argue with people that have oodles of hands on experience and have seen the results of doing certain things FIRST HAND.

Not to mention I have seen what you have engineered..................i'll just stop on that note.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



Acebird said:


> There wasn't anything to *lean*.


Presumably you actually meant "_learn_." Very apt that you have difficulty with this word.


----------



## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



Acebird said:


> There wasn't anything to lean.


Is this because you know it all? Acebird, lets sit down and write a beekeeping book using your wealth of knowledge.................i'll bring a post it note, or that piece of paper that came in my fortune cookie at lunch yesterday, and a pencil, that should about cover it. Oh and a bottle of asprin for my head ache from hitting my head on the wall.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

rader, i'm all for debunking nonsense, and pointing out when statements presented as facts may not be factual.

but i am going to try and be more careful with my tone, and do my best not to insult anyone.

i appreciate you pointing that out to me.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



Acebird said:


> All the newbie needs is determination and a _small investment_.


Or a _wife _with a checkbook.



Acebird said:


> To answer your question, nothing. *My wife pays for everything.*


:lookout:


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

All this thread needs is "more cow bell"!


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeGhost said:


> Engineers like yourself push their agendas and ideas without having actual hands on experience, and in that they fail to see what problems could arise and will arise.


I am sorry that you have to work in that environment. It is an atmosphere that I would expect to see in a large corporation more so than a small company that needs results from it's engineering staff.

BeeGhost I have literally thousands of posts on beesource (my buddy is keeping track and will give you an update from time to time as to the exact count) and many of them I state that I am a newbie plus it is in my profile. So where is the secrecy? Where is there any claim of my "expert" status?

I have gotten complements on my extractor from people that have seen it first hand. It is hard for me to understand your objection to me building a working device from scrap material. Is it the thin dime thing? What really has got you upset? I don't think I am the person you think I am. Certainly not a number crunching engineer that sat behind a desk all my life. Far from it.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Stop the presses: I am most likely in a minority here but I kind of enjoy the "birdmans" posts. They are often entertaining and occasionally informative. There is usually a little bait dangling there that you can choose to nibble at your own risk. I read them with a wry smile and almost always move on but every once in a while even I cant resist. I thought his response to me in post #44 was actually pretty good.....but not quite good enough for me to bite.


----------



## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

The $189.00 might be cheap. I started in beekeeping some 19 months back. The internet and a few phone calls have been the only outside assistance that I have received. My bees have survived and are finally prospering, but they did have a rough first year. I am now recovering from knee replacement surgery. As such, I won't be able to travel comfortably until after the first of the year. This spring I intend to travel and visit some beeks within a couple of hundred miles of my place. My driving expenses and motel costs for two of these trips will well exceed 189 bucks.

Let's face the facts, some people learn well in a class room environment, others need the hands-on experience and some lack the discipline to follow instruction. There are many different types of learners. This brings to mind the old Will Rogers quote: "Some men learn by reading, some men learn by observation, the rest of them have to pee on the fence."

I'm an engineer. I supervise drilling hostile environment oil and gas wells. My crew has two safety meeting a day at crew change. At that time we address safety concerns for the next 12 hour shift. I invite all of my crew members to please give their opinion about our upcoming chores and tasks. Before we do a major operation, we have another meeting about procedures, and once again, I ask the input of all members of the work team. Sometimes the lowest ranking person on the crew has the best solution. It has been my experience that engineers are no more dogmatic than other supervisors.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



> It is an atmosphere that I would expect to see in a large corporation


Ace, you often talk about "large corporations". Can we know what large corporations you have experience with. As for experience, I mean within the walls... Eating Corn Flakes doesn't count as experience with Kellogg's.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

i haven't been to a formal class on beekeeping, but i did get a chance to assist working some hives with experienced beekeepers in the beginning. i have done a fair amount of reading, and i have learned alot from the good members here on beesource.

in the end though, for me, and has been posted above by others...

nothing compares to the time spent with the bees,

and maybe more so the failures than the successes.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



lazy shooter said:


> The $189.00 might be cheap. I started in beekeeping some 19 months back. The internet and a few phone calls have been the only outside assistance that I have received. My bees have survived and are finally prospering, but they did have a rough first year. I am now recovering from knee replacement surgery. As such, I won't be able to travel comfortably until after the first of the year. This spring I intend to travel and visit some beeks within a couple of hundred miles of my place. My driving expenses and motel costs for two of these trips will well exceed 189 bucks.
> 
> Let's face the facts, some people learn well in a class room environment, others need the hands-on experience and some lack the discipline to follow instruction. There are many different types of learners. This brings to mind the old Will Rogers quote: "Some men learn by reading, some men learn by observation, the rest of them have to pee on the fence."
> 
> I'm an engineer. I supervise drilling hostile environment oil and gas wells. My crew has two safety meeting a day at crew change. At that time we address safety concerns for the next 12 hour shift. I invite all of my crew members to please give their opinion about our upcoming chores and tasks. Before we do a major operation, we have another meeting about procedures, and once again, I ask the input of all members of the work team. Sometimes the lowest ranking person on the crew has the best solution. It has been my experience that engineers are no more dogmatic than other supervisors.


Some good observations LS. I have often said that one of the arts of management is having the wisdom to separate the really bad ideas that come your way from the really good ones and you are right the good ones can sometimes come from the most unexpected places. So tell us who are you gonna hire LS, the guy with the degree or the guy with the dirty hands who says he sure needs a job and is willing to learn and do whatever needs to be done? Yeah I know probably an overly simple question in your line where some jobs clearly require a great deal of expertise. But havent many of the best employees started out at the very bottom and learned as they went?


----------



## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

Jim:

So tell us who are you gonna hire LS, the guy with the degree or the guy with the dirty hands who says he sure needs a job and is willing to learn and do whatever needs to be done?

The above question is not an either/or to me. If I want an entomologist, I am probably going to hire a college graduate from an agricultural school. If I'm hiring someone to work the bees with me, I want the dirty hands, hard working guy. In the oil patch, I contract with service companies and they provide me the personnel. That being said, most of the contract employees are supervised by employees that have come up through the ranks. Some of the services, like well head testing, pressure control, casing crews, pipe thread companies, vacuum truck, rental tools, fishing hands and tools, ..... are almost always headed by non college types that learned from experience. A few of the services, such as geophysical well logging and cementing operations are headed by engineers (even then the work is done by non college personnel.) The crew, roughnecks, are provided by the drilling contractor. In reality, I don't hire anyone.

I love the working people in the oil patch because they have a "can do" attitude. I am not exposed to whiners. Our people "man up" and do their jobs, and almost none of them have a college degree. And, yes, I listen to every **** one of them.


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

You sure can tell it's the "off season" for most of us beekeepers. lol
It is only a select few engineers (from my experience) that will actually listen to those "beneath" them AND act upon their suggestions AND give them credit (or at lest partial).
Hat's off to you lazy shooter (and the others like you), you are one of the few I speak of.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

At UGA, taught by Keith Delaplane….at a bit $300/semester hour, this class runs about $1000. Formal, face to face class time w/lab that includes hands on with all sorts of beekeeping things, including grafting, queen rearing, hygienic testing, etc.
Ask yourself how much time using trial and error and reading conflicting advice would you waste learning these things? Would it be worth a grand?

*ENTO 4300/6300-4300L/6300L. Bee Biology, Culture, and Management. *3 hours. 2 hours lecture and 3 hours lab per week. 
Oasis Title: BEE BIO & MGMT. 
Prerequisite: [(BIOL 1104 and BIOL 1104L or BIOL 1108-1108L) and ENTO 4000/6000-4000L/6000L] or permission of department. 
The life history, ecology, behavior, and pollinating activities of honey bees and other bees of the Southeast, including theory and practice of bee culture. 
Offered spring semester every odd-numbered year.


----------



## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

I'm with mr. Beeman on this, engineers like you, lazy shooter, are few and far between, and thanks for listening to the little guy!


----------



## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Daniel Y said:


> ...Realizing that current methods are incorrect does not by default give us the answers. What bothers me is the hard headed determination not only for a generation but for decades that these obviously mistaken methods are defended as the way to do it.something ...


hmmm what methods are mistaken? and what current methods are incorrect? I'll compare my winter losses to anyone's. 

Education comes in many different forms, and eveyone needs education. Whether from books, forums, videos, classroom, or hands-on experience. The best education is a combination of several methods. And it enables one to separate the wheat from the chaff. Sometimes the old ways are better, sometimes the new ways are better. Education and experience enables one to discern, and apply.
Regards,
Steven


----------



## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

My wife is a school superintendent in Texas. She has been in education for 40 plus years. She has a doctorate degree in statistics and is a very smart lady. I have listened to her lament about education for all those years. Public education is a paradox. On the one hand, all students are different. On the other hand, all public schools are managed at the upper most level by politicians. The politicians want a one size fits all education for the masses. Hence, the paradox mentioned above. Aside for campaigning for office, what do politicians do well?

When it comes to adult education, such as beekeeping, each individual must act according to their capabilities and abilities. If you are a hands-on learner who has to touch and feel things to learn about them, then get your butt in an apiary and spend some time. If you are one of those people that remember everything you read, buy a book or two. There are some people that like to be lectured about everything. I have one client that works for a large oil company, and when he has a project for me, he wants me to come to his office weeks prior to a job and just lecture him and his staff for a few hours. He says, “I want the information fed to me.” Education is a “whatever works for you” thing.

As I stated earlier, 189 bucks could be a good deal, or then it could ………………


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

You beekeepers are the best i do love the fight and sometimes i learn something thank you.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



Acebird said:


> A newbie doesn't need any knowledge that he/she has to pay for. All the newbie needs is determination and a small investment.
> Here is my question to the forum pointed at commercial operations: Would you pay someone more that has taken this class or would you rather teach this person yourself starting at a lower wage? Once this question is answered then we can determine if the 189 bucks is worth it.


I'd rather have someone who will do what I ask of them w/out a lot of questions. Someone who knows nothing and is willing to work is what is often needed more than anything else.

I just spent the last four days throwing pollen patties on hives w/ a friend of mine. Yesterday a young guyt w/out any experience or knowledge at all helped us. Along w/ his Dad we got twice as much done. 

You can teach someone what they want to learn, but what you can't teach someone is how to work, really simply work. That is something someone comes w/.

Many are capable, fewer are willing.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



Daniel Y said:


> Shopping for an education is a lot like shopping for a car. Prices vary for a wide range of reasons. One example of cost of education is a course in Instrumental Insemination. U.C. Davis wants $950 for the entire course. II and Advanced II. Plus you provide your own instrument. Some students provide their own microscope. But where else are you going to get the training? And if you do get it somewhere else was it worth getting.
> 
> On the other hand. They need to do a lot more to support that their course is with a plug nickle. I want to see the results that are achieved by those that have taken the course. Do people come out of the course better than average beekeepers and if so is it $189 better?



Those prices weed out those who aren't serious about learning and using the knowledge.

Everybody pays for their education one way or the other. Some of us take longer to learn. Continuing education programs go on throughout one's life.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I am only going to make two comments, then back out of this discussion.
> 
> 1. If newbees do not need education, then why would anyone go to college.
> 
> ...


College can give you an indication of serious intent. Once the Diploma is in hand the real education begins. Leastwise that's what I found out w/ my AAS in Commercial Beekeeping.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



sfisher said:


> All Beekeepers that I have meet *so far *have been more than happy to teach for free!


I just forgot to send u a bill Steven.  What's your address? lol


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



sqkcrk said:


> but what you can't teach someone is how to work,


My father taught me and I am 1 out of 6 kids. Some of it comes within but some of it is passed down.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



sqkcrk said:


> Those prices weed out those who aren't serious about learning and using the knowledge.


You can't be serious Mark. We live in an area that is surrounded by ivy league colleges. Do you seriously believe the majority of the students are serous about learning? It is a party at their parents expense and the sad part is their parents are happy to send them away. The ones that are serious are the ones that don't have too many options.
Private colleges are businesses so pricing has to do with what the market will bear. Nothing more nothing less.


----------



## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

"Here is my question to the forum pointed at commercial operations: Would you pay someone more that has taken this class or would you rather teach this person yourself starting at a lower wage? Once this question is answered then we can determine if the 189 bucks is worth it."

Gee Ace, I didn't realize that you intended to pad your resume enough with this one course for 189 bucks to significantly increase your annual income. Hell, it's 189 bucks, one doesn't have to take a second mortgage on their home for this amount of bucks. For 189 bucks, I would think one should expect some personal enlightenment. Nothing more.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



lazy shooter said:


> For 189 bucks, I would think one should expect some personal enlightenment. Nothing more.


That is always an option but I am not sure I would personally be enlightened even if it was for 20 bucks.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



Acebird said:


> I am not sure I would personally be enlightened even if it was for 20 bucks.


"Stop making sense Making sense."


Would you go for a dime's worth?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



Acebird said:


> You can't be serious Mark. We live in an area that is surrounded by ivy league colleges. Do you seriously believe the majority of the students are serous about learning? It is a party at their parents expense and the sad part is their parents are happy to send them away. The ones that are serious are the ones that don't have too many options.
> Private colleges are businesses so pricing has to do with what the market will bear. Nothing more nothing less.


I was refering to the Instrumental Insemination Classes which DanielY refered to.

Ask my daughter. She has pretty much put herself through college w/ Scholorships and Loans, not from Mom and Dad. But, just like her Mom and Dad did.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Daniel explained how people learn. It is not the book that matters it is the written language that may or may not get passed on to the reader. Visual aids have always been used. In a book all you can illustrate is a still photo or a sketch. A book cannot compete with the internet that is capable of video illustration and sound when it comes to learning.


Ace, you changed the method of teaching when you went from book to video.

And there are hundreds of ways people learn. but one primary one is this.

When learning see it write it and then speak it. this gives your brain three sensory avenues in which to absorb the information. Then there is the development of skills and application of that information which is separate.

Many people claim that hands on learning works best for them. This is partially due to combining the seeing. hearing and speaking along with the application and practice at the basic skill all in one.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Doing something w/out external direction gives one plenty of time to develope bad habits.

My Dad once said "Don't take driving lessons from a race car driver that crashes." Whether that fits or not, I'm not sure.

As an employer, not really, I don't employ anyone, I would rather have an interested blank slate than someoner w/ a little book learning who wants to know the why of every move. I had a helper this past Summer and he was good at helping and waited until the work was done to discuss what we did and what we saw. That was good and helpful.

Whether the Penn State Forum is worth the cost is up to the user. I sure hope you all send Barry 10% of the Penn State cost to support beesource.com so it will continue to be here for our education and entertainment.

SUPPORT beesource.com. !!


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Mark, I agree that tuition or cost helps reduce the casually interested.

Specifically in regard tot he II courses I think it is more of an issue of providing quality training at an arguably low price. I am not certain what tuition at U.N.R. is not. it changes all the time. but I think we are somewhere up around $200 or so per credit. I think that covers 30 hours of classroom instruction. One of the II courses is 4 days. So $425 for possibly 32 hours of instruction.

Just a comparison to show that the price may not really be that far out of line. and it may be that some portion of this course offering is running on a grant or some other funding.

I don't think the cost of the II courses are set to discourage the curious as much as they are set to assure quality in the instruction.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well said and informative. I have no personal knowledge of course costs and instructors fees. I went to college as a test of my own seriousness in persuing beekeeping as a means of selfsupport. So I base my understanding on that, whether that is the case for anyone else I have no idea.

Back when I went to school, back in the dark ages, college was affordable, for me and my wife, because we were able to get Pell Grants, student loans, and work study. Are such things not available today? It took us a while to repay our loans, but we never felt likeanything was going to be foreclosed on to reclaim the debt owed.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Ace, you changed the method of teaching when you went from book to video.


Yes, by a huge amount. You not only get see and hear from the video you get motion at 25 frames a second. You can get see and hear from a narrated book while reading along. You remember doing that in school? It still won't equal video in learning retention because it lacks motion.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> It took us a while to repay our loans, but we never felt likeanything was going to be foreclosed on to reclaim the debt owed.


That is because when you finished your degree there was other opportunity for you if by some chance you really didn't take to beekeeping. Today, the unprivileged student is 200,000 dollars in debt and may have no job offers at all when he/she graduates. You can capitalize the loans only so long and that is just digging a hole deeper anyway.
I came out of school with a degree is building construction during the oil embargo. No construction jobs anywhere but I was able to move to Connecticut and learn textile automation and machine design. Yes, from the bottom up and my questions were welcomed.
If you are looking for a brainless monkey to help you with the monkey work that is one thing. If you are looking for someone that can think on there own and take over the monkey work so all you have to do is manage the people and grow your business, that is another. The person who can take over for you is not a monkey see, monkey do type of individual.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Mark, Yes grants loans and work study are still alive and well. Ace nails it on the opportunity though. College graduates are leaving school to live with their parents and struggle to pay off any loans with no income. Many of the students I see every day are outright afraid of graduating. they are extending their studies to delay repayment of student loans.
There are ways through all things and for students today there are ways. not preferable by any means. but they are hanging on and college enrollment is actually up by 15% over last year at our University. Another side effect of a bad economy. retention of new students is also up. It's harder to leave when you have nowhere to go.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

For sure Brian. But the guy who will take over any current commercial operation probably is already able to do the work intelligently w/ understanding and insight and it's just a matter of conforming to the style and direction of thge beekeeper himself.

First I want someone who can work and has a brain, able to see when something is wrong and able to fix it or bring it to my attention.

U gotta know youir employees and their limitations, and then supervise them. Trust but verify. and still mistakes will bve made, but hopefully not fatal ones. Covers get left partially left off, here and there, after feeding syrup. Stuff happens. You gotta be able to roll w/ it.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Glad i did not go to college would of been a wast of money for me{to much party thats for sure}
I learned the restaurant thing hands on and been at it since i was 12 and have owned 3 the one i have now is 22 years old and doing great so thats the way i'm going with beekeeping hand on learn buy my mistakes. I make more then the kids{PENN STATE}that work for me when they graduate if they graduate most not all but most and i made money as i learned. Now my kid is going to go to college next year so i guess it's 
time for me to pay but hopefuly she'll do better then me and if not well there's the restaurant allways make money how else could i pay for this hobby?


----------



## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

"Online" and "Beekeeping Course" don't belong in the same sentence. Beekeeping is hands on and no course will teach near as as much as you will learn from your own hive. Beyond that, I can't imagine any online course can provide more than you can find here or through Google.


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



throrope said:


> Beyond that, I can't imagine any online course can provide more than you can find here or through Google.


Some people are overwhelmed by the multitude of opinions on how to do many simple tasks and welcome a place to learn that tells them "this is the way to keep bees." Paying $189 for the privilege of learning what for many of us is a hobby has to do with how the course is valued by the public at large.

I am not aware of any bee schools operating in the past in my area. If people nearby wanted to take a course to learn about beekeeping, then they'd have few options but to travel, take a course like the Penn State one or Dave Tarpy's NC State BEES program, or do without.

I started by just diving in and keeping a hive - I wish now that I had known a bit more how little I knew then. Just maybe I'd be a better beekeeper.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> First I want someone who can work and has a brain, able to see when something is wrong and able to fix it or bring it to my attention.


Then you got to grin and bear all the stupid questions that cost you time. Trust me on this one. I volunteered for the internships every year (no one else would do it) I could tell in a heartbeat which students were interested in an engineering carrier or even technical carrier or just there to goof off. An inquiring mind is going to consume your time without question. If you show patience and deal with the stupid questions you will have a believer.


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*



Andrew Dewey said:


> Some people are overwhelmed by the multitude of opinions on how to do many simple tasks and welcome a place to learn that tells them "this is the way to keep bees." Paying $189 for the privilege of learning what for many of us is a hobby has to do with how the course is valued by the public at large.


SOOOO that is the point. Get a book HOW TO KEEP BEES Mr Bush"s book is a good place to start.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Afordable beekeeping*

+10


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Then you got to grin and bear all the stupid questions that cost you time.


Isn't that what I am doing here on beesource? Friends wonder why I do it. Must be filling some need, I guess. Attention probably.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> Then you got to grin and bear all the stupid questions...





sqkcrk said:


> Isn't that what I am doing here on beesource?


Yes, but sometimes you seem to be distracted by legitimate questions.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ha,ha, BeeCurious. Not to mention legitimate work.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Isn't that what I am doing here on beesource?


Yes, very much so. That is why I don't understand why you are reluctant to do it in the work place where eventually it would benefit you more in the long run.


----------

