# Paid to maintain Warre hives



## HiveAtYourHome

Started a new company today (Hive At Your Home) which Warre was the answer for. I'm going to be maintaining hives in Boston, NE Mass. and Southern NH, people paying for pollination, having a hive, and some honey. I would not be able to do this with a Langstroth for two reasons. (OK they will be modified Warre to easily comply with NH and MA regs on inspection.)
1st: The start-up capital would prevent Langstroth, but as I have lumber already my version of a modified Warre hives are <$10 each.
2nd: A Langstroth or hTBH would require numerous manipulations throughout the year. When there are at scattered out-yards with sometimes only 1 hive a proper Warre approach allows for much less travel as I'll only open them ~3 times a year.

Additionally I'm getting people to adopt hives at community gardens, organic CSA farms, a historic garden, and an educational center through a kickstarter project (online funding donations with rewards.)

So although there will be Langstroths and hTBHs at my house for breeding, the out-yards will all be Warre. Admittedly this model needs both the revenue from getting most of the honey and people paying to have them there, but then again big commercial guys rely on the pollination fees so...


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## b2bnz

We would be interested in the specifications of your modified Warre, length, breadth and height , and your planned manipulations for the season.


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## odfrank

H A Langstroth or hTBH would require numerous manipulations throughout the year. [/QUOTE said:


> I know guys who stack a bunch of supers on a Langstroth and return in fall to harvest them, me included at some sites. A wood box is a wood box, they can be managed the same way. You are trying to give Warres some magical quality I fail to see.


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## sqkcrk

HiveAtYourHome said:


> but then again big commercial guys rely on the pollination fees so...


"so" what? What are you saying that you didn't?

Pollination for many commercial beekeepers is part of the whole income producing venture. But, there are commercial operations which do no paid pollination.


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## quevernick

I've seen quite a few people say that Warre Hives require the least amount of attention of the three major Hive types. However I'd imagine if you are trying to manage the hive to comply with removeable frame laws then a lot of the advantages of a Warre Hive would not apply. At least initially you would need to check the hive quite frequently to make sure comb is drawn out straight (unless I've misunderstood something). Most of the manipulations of a Langstroth Hive generally tend to be for Swarm Prevention. I've havent seen anyone running a Warre Hive mention Swarm Prevention. Is it not needed due to the hive design or do you just not worry about it. If you just dont worry about it then I really dont see the advantage of a warre versus a Langstroth with a bunch of supers stacked on top and left alone as mentioned earlier.


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## Oldtimer

Warré hives, being 1/2 the size, would surely have more swarming issues if left unmanaged, than a lang? IE, if you left a lang, and a Warré with equal bee numbers, both stacked 5 high and unmanaged, the Warré would probably swarm first, and the most.

Is swarming regarded as just a natural behaviour that should be allowed to happen, in Warré method?


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## Jim 134

I see this is you'r 1st post is this you'r time 1st at trying to keep to keep bees to ??



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## HiveAtYourHome

*Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives - Oldtimer*

@ oldtimer - 

Swarming in regards to volume is the same Warre/ Langstroth

2 Deep Langstroth boxes with the same amount of bees as 4 Warre boxes gives about the same result. (that is the fair comparison) Warre isn't magic.

"Warre Method" now you using that term is important as it is possible to distuish between the Warre box and his prescribed method. I would say however that a higher percentage of practicioners but Warre boxes real close to Warres method than the percantage of beekeepers who use Langstroth boxes do their beekeeping real close to what Langstroth wrote.

The same beekeeper choices exist to allow bees to do what they do in any hive if they are doing well, swarm. Although I think Warre nadiring would do a much better job at swarm prevention than Langstroth style (talking methods here) supering at preventing swarming; the tools available are more limited with Warre (nadir, split) then langstroths unless you want to seriously deviate from Warre's intents then you could do about anything the same.


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## HiveAtYourHome

@ Jim 134
No the name here is new as of last week as the name of the company is new. Just abandoned my old account, figured I should use the actual name of my company and not hide it behind some old random user name. (meaning I feel its more important that my business is accountable than I care what oisters think of my join date.


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## Oldtimer

*Re: Paid to maintain Warre hives - Oldtimer*



HiveAtYourHome said:


> 2 Deep Langstroth boxes with the same amount of bees as 4 Warre boxes gives about the same result. (that is the fair comparison) Warre isn't magic.


 Thing is though, if you will be using Warre method, ie, not doing much manipulation, most Warres' from what I understand, don't often go past 5 boxes total, only the equivalent of 2 1/2 langs. So you are virtually guaranteed to force the bees to swarm, probably multiple times. This will be a nuisance to some of your customers.

I do have some experience with hives this size, because many years ago I spent two years working for a guy who ran a particular queen bee breeding operation. The frames he used in his nucs where 3/4 standard lang depth, and 3/4 standard lang length. So to keep everything standard we also used hives that were made of boxes 3/4 depth and 3/4 length, or in other words, virtually the same size as a Warre. 

Although undersupering (or in french, nadiring), is the preferred Warre method, this is not about swarm control it's because in Warre method the new boxes added do not have comb or comb foundation. If the boxes do have comb or comb foundation, as was the case with us, the bees take more readily to boxes added on top. Undersupering, if done during a heavy flow, forces the bees to wait till brood hatches before they can store honey in the preferred location, the top. They feel crowded, which promotes swarming impulse. Top supering is better in that circumstance.

Swarming was not a problem to us, because we were constantly harvesting packages. But bees in a hive this size can build and fill it very rapidly, without fairly intensive management swarming would be a major concern.

But anyhow, very pleased someone is actually doing what you are doing, and there is something about Warre hives people find appealing. I'm sure the business will go well, just sharing a few thoughts from my own experience.


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## HiveAtYourHome

quevernick said:


> Swarm Prevention.


see reply to Oldtimer abouts swarms in this thread.

A couple Warre advantages:
overwintering (in a lang they need to move this way then that or they leave honey behind before moving to the next box, also what's with the skimpy 3/4" wood),

Bees in natural comb need more depth than a langstroth to get to the smaller brood cells (combs have honey above, then pollen, then in the middle of a brood nest if the comb is allowed to get deeper the brood cells get smaller, the bees try to breed bees of different sizes. In a traditional warre this can happen.

In a traditional warre the comb is continuous, none of this making the bees jump up a frame, there are many studies showing how this negatively affects the bees.

My favorite: I built mine for <$10 thats 5 bodies high (two lang deeps and a shallow) another body to put a feeder in (I feed packages, then don't feed again, leave honey), rigid sound insulation board (breathable) instead of Warre's fancy quilt, tile for a roof and weight, frames.

There are many things, some blur the management versus physically box or other. For physicalness....need to continue later, kid needs to be in bed. But that is better for a general "what are the advantages of a traditional physical warre hive" "what are the advantages of Warre management" threads anyways then here.


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## quevernick

Im guessing you had most of these materials laying around if you built all of that for <$10. I've thought about using 2x instead of 3/4 to make langstroth hives. The biggest reason I can think not to, would be weight and it wouldn't be a standard size.


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## Oldtimer

Yes, we have a guy here who does rental langs, built of 2 inch timber. The edges of the boxes are bevelled, making them quite attractive. But it does add weight. A full box of honey is heavy enough, and these thick boxes tip it that much harder.

With Warres though, the smaller size means the weight is not such an issue. Langs, being bigger, do not require the same amount of insulation, so 3/4 or 7/8 timber is normally fine.


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## HiveAtYourHome

OK odfrank you got me.

I've repeated a bunch of times recently that a langstroth can be operated per Warre methods. Did this in my argument that vertical versus horizontal is the real divide not frames that just have top bars versus wood all the way around frames. (don't complicate things by mentioning no frame/top bars please.)

So that is kind of your argument against what I said, but I was typing one thing while thinking about methods not the langstroth box.


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## HiveAtYourHome

b2bnz said:


> We would be interested in the specifications of your modified Warre, length, breadth and height , and your planned manipulations for the season.


OK, with a portable saw mill and 60 acres of woods I have rough cut board laying around from an abandoned project.
I stole this concept from Anarchy Apiaries when I saw his, its great because you just make four boards one length and screw them together to form a square, only one cut length.

What I also love about it is that even if you "mess up" there is a wide range that everything will work out, almost anyone could do all of this bye eyeballing the lengths and where to put top bars and it would still work based on the suggested lengths and spacing below. These frames are inspectable (cut box with wire, check to see if there are sidewall connections from below, cut sidewall connection, lift topbar and look at comb, put it back in same space,) but not meant to be interchangeable (Warre wouldn't want you moving comb around.) (Most state regs reference inspectable comb, some reference frames, legal interpretation of every state with that is that a top bar is a frame, you don't need side or bottom bars to meet definition. In normal lingo we say frame when talking fully wooden around versus top bars but that means nothing to legal interpretation so don't get confused these are frames and they are inspectable.)

First what it could be then what I did:
For the basic box what it could be:
thickness between 1"-board to 2" board (this will change your outer dimension but not the inner, boxes are smaller so extra weight not a problem)
inner dimension 10.25" - 12.25" can work with bee space, Warre is 11.75" Do you have small cell bees?
board width, wider is better 8"-12"
length of 4 square sides will be inner dimmension + 2*board thickness (12.25"-16.25")
I cut all the boards the same length and screw them together in a spiral so each side is one board end and one board length.
board length: So cut four boards to be inner dimension + 1 board thickness (11.25"-14.25")

OK so what I did:

I wanted 11.75" inner dim., it matches Warre and randomly the needlessly complex frame spacing I use.
Outside dimension 14.75" sq 10" high (10" is close to Warre's metric and I had it)

Cut 1.5" by 10" boards to 10 13.25" lengths
and screw boards in a spiral to form a square like this:

------------------- |
|..........top bar......|
|..........top bar......|
|..........top bar......|
|..........top bar......|
|..........top bar......|
|..........top bar......|
|..........top bar......|
|..........top bar......|
|_________________

Then taking scrap pieces (unused edges from langstroth frames is the size, much thinner and less wide than a kenyan hTBH or a hoffman selfspacing frame in your langstroth, thinner is better as its bees will keep the comb going from one frame to the other, you cut the boxes with a wire and less sidewall attachments then you would think and as 11.75 inner dim doesn't need much of a frame top bar.) snipped top bars to inner dimension.

staple two against opposite sides to make frame rest (set in thickness of top bar and one bee space)

Then you could either eyeball wedging the top bars across (if you leave a tad bit long or wax down) or have something with the spacing on them. using metric warre wasn't thinking 1.5" but its close even division is ~1.5 between top bar mid points and .75" to side. I on the other hand think the brood in the center frames does better with 1.25" spacing and outside frames will get honey (I know its all honey when it gets moved up,) so I give them 1.5" spacing for the outer two top bars. the space from the out top bar to the side would be 15/16" (half of the 1.5" spacing = .75 plus half a bee space = 3/16) but I round that to 1". So I mark a board with where the top bars should go. From interios side board:
interior side, 1" bar midpoint, 1.5" bar midpoint, 1.5" bar midpoint, 1.25" bar midpoint, 1.25" bar midpoint, 1.25" bar midpoint, 1.5" bar midpoint, 1.5" bar midpoint, 1" interior side
if you want identical spacing work it out yourself or heck like I said eyeball it till the eight bars look evenly spaced.

For inspectability I use topbar frames every box. To start package use two boxes. Have 6 made min. (one for feeder/insulator)

For bottom had scrap plywood, cut 14.75" square then put down 3/8" high strips on back and sides and I throw in 1/4" hardware cloth as permanent mouse guard with sharp ends up to scratch skunk paws.

Instead of fancy gabled roof with vents and complicated quilt I cut open cell ridged sound insulation board (~ $1 absorbes water and bees can suck it out, and breaths) to the dimension of top of box. cut hole in center to put pail feeder above for packages (don't plan to feed sugar after year 1 ever, leave honey but packages aren't as good as a similar size swarm and swarms only get 25% overwinter in wild so first year feed.) I bought epoxy coated paint cans ($3) and the feeder screen plug-betterbee $1.50 sells to make my own feeder but a 1 gallon plastic pail should fit.

For top bought 16" tile ($3) Buy whatever is >15" for whatever color.

So take bottom, put 2 boxes on it, add insulation board, add another box, put feeder pail in this box, ratchet strap down to cinder blocks or pallet, put tile on top.

Thats it. If clients want to paint outside of spare boxes, they get nadired in later. Personally rough cut lumber small boxes don't look like hives and cause less issues then a big white Langstroth. (nadiring isn't just for Warre philisophical reasons, if you go foundationless in a langstroth you should nadir to draw the comb out as how would the bees get to the top if supering if no foundation?)


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## odfrank

Arguing the merits of Langstroth, Warre or Topbar with a devoted user of either, is like arguing with the Jehovah's Witness who push their particular religion going door to door. Niether of you are likely to change your religion or agree that the other person is right.


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## deknow

HiveAtYourHome said:


> (nadiring isn't just for Warre philisophical reasons, if you go foundationless in a langstroth you should nadir to draw the comb out as how would the bees get to the top if supering if no foundation?)


...you could nadir, and you should if you are trying to manage a lang like warre...but otherwise I disagree.

Space above the colony is treated differently than space below.

If you can't be bothered to do anything other than toss an empty box of foundationless frames above the colony, then they will make a mess of things...but they will (like all space added above the established colony) fill it in earnest....they will expand downwards as they need the room if it is available...but it's no where near the same effect. They won't fill the space below as quickly, it won't distract them from swarming as much as space above. Adding space above or below is not swarm control.

There is nothing "natural" about adding more volume to an existing colony..above or below. ...this is the primary manipulation that beekeepers use to redirect the natural urge to swarm into an increased honey yield. Adding the room above (empty, foundation, comb, or a combination) leaves the bees in the unnatural situation of having empty space above the colony....their natural reaction to this unnatural situation is to "repair" their nest (which is generally built and filled from the top down). Nadering adds volume but does not stimulate the need to repair, to build or fill empty comb above the established colony.

Warre beekeepers tend to pride themselves on their desire to cause swarms. I get the point, but in a city? Only visited 3 times a year? To paying customers with neighbors? Without insurance?

Who is going to pay to cutout swarms from the neighbors home? Have you ever kept bees in your modified warre hive? Did they swarm?

I don't mean to be hard on you Kagen, but I think you are getting in over your head. No one will be happy if unattended hives swarm in the city. Beekeepers won't support you if you are willing to be paid to maintain the hives, but unwilling to take reasonable care to prevent swarming. 

deknow


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## quevernick

odfrank said:


> Arguing the merits of Langstroth, Warre or Topbar


Hehe, I've noticed that  From my limited experience with my Langsroth and Topbar they both have advantages and disadvantages. I will try a Warre eventually just so I can make an informed opinion on all of them.


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## Oldtimer

deknow said:


> Warre beekeepers tend to pride themselves on their desire to cause swarms. I get the point, but in a city? Only visited 3 times a year? To paying customers with neighbors? Without insurance?


Yes that's a question I would like to direct to Warre beekeepers, in Warre method, what is the attitude to swarming? Is any attempt made to control it? Or is it seen as something that should be allowed to happen?


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## HiveAtYourHome

deknow said:


> swarming.
> 
> deknow


The Warre's in very rural areas will be kept strong as thats the only folks who really need intense pollination for farming plots. Installing swarm boxes and having swarms in a remote field surrounded by woods is not the end of the world.

In the city I plan to do walk-away splits, keeping weak hives, I'm willing to suffer low honey yields. I doubt people will mind if they get two hives, and if they only want one, the I'll take the other one elsewhere. Finding the balance to get them strong enough to overwinter, but weakening through splitting as early as possible to try to avoid swarming (but late enough to maintain numbers to keep cluster temperature.) Customers informed of this, and for the most part more urban folks just want a hive, its ok with them thats its not a monster, they agree they'd rather have a timid hive that is not a swarm generator even if it has far fewer pollination potential. A farmer on the other hand doesn't really see the use of a new package or newly split warre. (In fact the farm near me will get established Langs using 3 deeps for brood/overwintering and honey only taken from above.)

My question for urban and suburban beekeeping is does anyone think that you can do a better job preventing swarming than keeping Warres weak by walk away splits and choosing a lower honey yield?

One advantage of the fraught early for north queen rearing is migratory brought drones won't be here yet, more matings are better but only the strongest winter proven hives will have any drones flying. Better DNA  Lower amount of drones, potential less matings  Not worried about volume (duration queen will keep laying) but about diversity of sister lines within hive as recent studies being/soon to be released have shown better performance in many aspects with hives with more lines.


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## HiveAtYourHome

Oldtimer said:


> Yes that's a question I would like to direct to Warre beekeepers, in Warre method, what is the attitude to swarming? Is any attempt made to control it? Or is it seen as something that should be allowed to happen?


Not speaking for me as this is the opposite of what an established business could ever operate on and one of my reasons for posting is that I have to fight swarming (hence glad to get pointers from folks without a Warre hive or swarm is good mindset as I must deviate in that direction), but for the clandestine dedicated, I think that you may be on to people oldtimer as many enthusiasts are likely setting up purpose built swarm generators just left around randomly in the woods (and more controversially urban areas.) Why promote swarming? Why leave swarm generators on a tree in the woods and never come back? I surmise, they think that by allowing bees to reproduce themselves (swarming is the only normal bee reproduction) that the bees will beat scientists to discovering lines that are not easy-die welfare bees.

I don't do this, but I understand the motivation as most beekeepers although they like bees, want something from the bees and don't want their bees to die for the good of eliminating weak stock so we do things to save them. Bees reproducing on their own only let the fittest survive and the easy-die, treatment welfare bee dna is breed out. So I'm not going to speak for Warre beekeepers and be the one to say "yes swarming should happen" as its not part of my model as I don't really think of what I'll be doing as Warre's model of beekeeping, but if you keep asking this I'm sure you will find someone to agree with that and defend swarming.

Kagen
Hive At Your Home
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/186539561/hive-at-your-home-honey-bees


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## HiveAtYourHome

quevernick said:


> Hehe, I've noticed that  From my limited experience with my Langsroth and Topbar they both have advantages and disadvantages. I will try a Warre eventually just so I can make an informed opinion on all of them.


I think your on to something there odfrank & quevernick. While devoties of Langstroth, hTBHs, or Warre might not concede the disadvantages of their choice or the advantages of another type, but no type of hive or management is perfect, but all in practice must have some advantages or they wouldn't be used.

I do find it peculiar that a devotee of any hive type or practice would visit the forum of a type or management style that they don't think their are advantages to be learned from.


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## Oldtimer

OK well to me the advantage with a top bar hive is it's built to suit the beekeeper, ie, no heavy lifting. The advantage with a lang is it suits the bees inclination to store honey at the top, so they can store you a decent honey crop. What then, is the advantage of Warre?


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## HiveAtYourHome

deknow said:


> If you can't be bothered to do anything other than toss an empty box of foundationless frames above the colony, then they will make a mess of things...but they will (like all space added above the established colony) fill it in earnest....
> deknow


Did you personally get bees to draw a box of foundationless frames supered in earnest? If you did that was a non-standard result, check beesource forums, the most oftenly used mistaken argument posted against foundationless stating the bees took forever to draw and would have done so fast with foundation, is the mistake of supering foundationless frames. There are many postings here from beeks wondering why they the bees won't draw, and many posters have pointed out that mistake.

If you did get bees to draw foundationless above so earnestly, were you feeding from above that?

You are spot on about that there is emergency drive for space above, but the only time foundation will be drawn quicker than foundationless is supering it, so I could not think of anyone calling drawing it above as an action in earnest, maybe I'm quibbling...hmmm. 

You are also right on in that they would make a mess, most likely starting comb from the bottom and such.


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## HiveAtYourHome

Oldtimer said:


> OK well to me the advantage with a top bar hive is it's built to suit the beekeeper, ie, no heavy lifting. The advantage with a lang is it suits the bees inclination to store honey at the top, so they can store you a decent honey crop. What then, is the advantage of Warre?


Well after 50 odd years of research and 500 or so hive designs, Warre's book "Beekeeping for All" (download at http://www.users.callnetuk.com/~heaf/beekeeping_for_all.pdf) is a good place to start to answer that, 

but seriously I urge you to start that thread asking to list advantages and disadvantages, but be clear are you asking about the traditional Warre methods, or the dimensions of a Warre's "the People's Hive" box, or strict adherence to using both in conjunction.


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## Oldtimer

True, I guess it's a bit off topic for this thread.


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## HiveAtYourHome

Oldtimer said:


> True, I guess it's a bit off topic for this thread.


My intent isn't just off topic or not but I think you've hit on the pivotal thing that most checking out a Warre forum who aren't converts already want to see. It DESERVES its own thread.

Also admittedly I'm not up for codifying THE definitive list for Warre advantages, I've been chatty enough.


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## Maddox65804

Honeybees are being used - that means there are going to be similar management issues, and therefore similar time inputs, no matter what hive design is being used


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## HiveAtYourHome

Maddox65804 said:


> So it seems very on topic to explain why using the Warre design works best for the business you propose. Honeybees are being used - that means there are going to be similar management issues, and therefore similar time inputs, no matter what hive design is being used


First, Agree that that hive design doesn't influence time input nearly as much as management style, and situations drive managment style. So I must concede a Warre and Langstroth managed the "same" take the same amount of time, think I implied it didn't earlier glad to have that set straight thanks for the catch. (But you can't really manage the "same" a hTBH, but I guess moving a follower board could be equated to adding a box? Its just hard to visualize saying its the same management and I think there are many situations that a hTBH may take more time input than a vertical box of any dimension configuration.)

Second. Why choose Warre design if urban/suburban locations drive management to be the ~same? Answer is three-fold, public relations, Warre is by far the easiest to make, and I do disagree in that a hTBH would need more manipulations by design.

Warre being easy (OK, my Warre is simplified and is easier/cheaper than real design, see previous post): OK 45 minutes of my time per complete hive (6 boxes (1 to go over feeder), bottom/entrance, top, insulation,making paint can a feeder.) I had the wood and spent <$10 per hive and feeder. With one circular saw, one stapler, one ruler, pencil, & pair of snips could you make a Langstroth hive (2 deep, one shallow and box for top feeder, bottom board, inner cover, outer cover, 30 frames) from rough cut board in 45 minutes? Would it cost you less than $10? Even hTBH need the bars ripped lengthwise at good spacing tolerance.

Public relations:
We may be talking bees, but in all things the actual technical activity means little in comparison to people and politics.
I think Warre is a far superior hive choice to a conventionally run Langstroth in urban/close suburban settings. The reaction of people counts more than the the supposed difference in what will happen with bees (keeping in mind not following Warre's methods unfortunately.) I've brought both down to community gathers at the sponsored locations. Giant white Langstroths scare people (they should the 3 deeps of brood produces
a less timid hive) rough cut small boxes don't stick out, or painted individually by people it screams someone is proud of this, someone loves this hive and their is nothing wrong with it. The perception response to the
Langstroths is a lot of revulsion, they are commercial, they are big and scary, and there is their auto connection to peoples stereotypes of bees. Warre's break out of that and I'm going in that direction because of the issues of
urban/suburban beekeeping. At growing center meeting this feedback made it obvious to me that Warres are much more suited to urban beekeeping. People in urban settings want bee awareness and for them to feel a connection, the maximum honey and pollination isn't necessary and the ill will towards Langstroths is counterproductive.

Choosing Warre over simple hTBH: Although you can manage any dimension of vertical stacked boxes similarly, I don't think that extends to hTBHs. I just think that putting packages in hTBHs would necessitate more frequent management than what is necessary for a Langstroth or Warre given the situation I face at least initially. So Warre style design was chosen over hTBH.


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## quevernick

You do realize there is no law stating you have to paint langstroth hives white  Mine are actually brown since I got mistint paint. If the cheapest paint was Pink I'd have pink hives. Given that your using a circular saw Langstroth boxes would be a little difficult to make. If I had to use a circular saw to make boxes they would be crooked as crap :0


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## odfrank

HiveAtYourHome said:


> Giant white Langstroths scare people (they should the 3 deeps of brood produces a less timid hive) The perception response to the
> Langstroths is a lot of revulsion, they are commercial, they are big and scary, and there is their auto connection to peoples stereotypes of bees.People in urban settings want bee awareness and for them to feel a connection, the maximum honey and pollination isn't necessary and the ill will towards Langstroths is counterproductive.
> .


There is a lot of public beekeeping going on in this area, hives on the rooftop of the San Francisco Chronicle Newspaper, hives on the Google campus. It is all being carried on with Langstroth hives. I have not heard any of the "revulsion" "ill-will" and "scariness" that you speak of at any of these projects. These comments sound pretty far fetched to me. Run your business with the hive you find best suited, you don't have to convince any of us.


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## HiveAtYourHome

@ quevernick -
OK, you are right Langstroths don't need be white. And most near me know about the cheap deals on mistake paint and go that route. As I have only 1/5 acre where I'm at (the 60+ acres I reference in design post is the farm I own and land nearby it but don't live there,) I debated between unpainted and unobtrusive route or the paint fancy a be proud of the two hives at my house. Since I invite neighbors over and let folks watch from the screened gazebo that they are next to, I went the paint them brightly and be proud route. Check out my profile photo here or my website to see. One is a rainbow color with each box/component, the other black or yellow for components, then white with yellow/black details for boxes. My soon to be 3 year old named one rainbow-bright and the other one warrior princess.

Hive At Your Home
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...ome-honey-bees


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## HiveAtYourHome

@ oddfrank - 
Sorry if it seems demonizing, but just passing on the feedback I got at sessions when I did the research and asked. I have Langstroths at my own house and see nothing wrong with them personally, but if one is honest you already know people had those reactions. But It does seems I do need to convince some of you that in a Warre forum that it is OK to post that I plan to use Warre style hives. That there are some advantages to Warre, just as there are some advantages to Langstroths, and some to horizontal hives. It seems that anything that is similiar to a warre in design and connecting to any of the philosophy of Warre is being attacked and I brought out a couple of points on the other side. Warre hives being different cause people to stop and form an opinion, they already have preconceived notions about Langstroth Hives even if they don't know the name, some people good notions, some people bad. By talking to people about bees while they are forming an opinion its easier. I don't believe I need to defend the Langstroth hive, others are doing a fine job doing that and its success in number of users speaks to that.

If there is not one advantage to either Warre hives in design or Warre's management style then why are people wasting their time posting?

Unbelievable that anyone would not have ever heard of negativity towards hives and bees by non-beekeepers. The people actually putting "hives on the rooftop of the San Francisco Chronicle Newspaper, hives on the Google campus" etc. I am 100% sure thought about the public and that a percentage of people will have negative opinions about bees no matter what hive style one has, and I can guarantee that someone thinks revulsion" "ill-will" and "scariness" about the bees in those projects. Not necessarily because they are Langstroths, but because they are bees. Because they are Langstroths its harder to put them in the light of a simple friendly project as the general public connects them with commercial beekeeping. Those examples I concede the type is not as import as location where the public can get closer, rooftops of a single house or apartment, community gardens etc. In those projects the hives are probably not visible to anyone and you can't get within great distances of them. For smaller plots that are private homes the look of the hive becomes more important as it shifts from bees as a concept to "hey what am I looking at over there."


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## Oldtimer

HiveAtYourHome said:


> Because they are Langstroths its harder to put them in the light of a simple friendly project as the general public connects them with commercial beekeeping.


I don't think the general public have any issues with commercial beekeeping. The only issues with commercial beekeeping come from within a small section of beekeepers themselves, and the general public only pick up on these attitudes if they are passed on to them by beekeepers who hold these opinions.


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## HiveAtYourHome

Probably fairly true but I wasn't meaning to imply that, I wasn't eluding to that sentiment you are mentioning so much as I agree that the general public probably has little opinion of commercial beekeepers one way or the other.

To clarify what I meant, as private residents not liking ANYTHING not residential near their residences, any thing that reminds them of a commercial or industry enterprise. Kinda saying that its the difference in response by a neighbor thinking "here is my neighbors hobby hive", versus "my neighbor moved in a commercial enterprise" Trying to play off the hive as the persons pet project, that its personal to them, and that hey this is no big deal, just something small. As it doesn't ring clear that that is my intent in the first post maybe I'm reaching with that.


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## quevernick

There are certain sections of the public that have a aversion to bees or flying stinging insects period. My little sister is one of them, she wont go any where near my hives. No matter the type, if the hives are out in plain view people will see the bees. There is a very visible cloud of bees when they are active. And if they have the mentioned aversion will most likely start complaining. Bees are great though since they can do their job while remaining hidden. Which would be my point I try to keep bees that I have on other peoples propery away from the public eye.


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## Maddox65804

I must apologize first. I had written a response because I had not seen the arguments that you had presented on Page 2 (somehow, I skipped from page 1 to page 3 by accident). So much of my response had already been answered. My apologies for the mistaken post.

The choice of Warre over Langstroth seems mostly driven by the limited construction facilities - and that is a good reason. I was curious about the factors that led to the decisions. I was not intending to criticize them.

Warres are essentially Langstroth hives using top bars instead of full frames. The main difference in management is the under-supering (nadiring). Not a lot significant differences between the two. Even the looks of the two systems are pretty much the same if you chose to let them be so.

Good luck with the enterprise and thanks for letting us explore the ins and outs of your thought process.


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## Zonker

Wow crazy thread ... but a big part of my use of the Warre hives is that both my wife and my mom insist that I use them since the are so "cute". I think HiveatHome is right about the general appeal of public.


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