# Sticky  2019 efb threads



## squarepeg

i stickied a handful of threads last year having to do with efb outbreaks. i thought it would be best to organize those threads here into one sticky, and we can start over with 2020 outbreaks.

https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...hich-brood-disease-is-shown-in-my-photographs

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?354293-EFB-options

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?352535-Can-t-stop-the-EFB

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?356313-Shrinking-population-what-do-I-do

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?355717-EFB-Waiting-on-my-test-kit

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?355093-EFB-dilemma

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?354565-Is-this-EFB

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?354979-PMS-or-EFB


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## BernhardHeuvel

Interesting enough, in Europe we have the "American Foulbrood" and in North America you find the "European Foulbrood". 

I know, different bacteria. Still interesting that we don't have much EFB in Europe. (Except Switzerland, where it is epidemic.)


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## squarepeg

anecdotal reports here in the u.s. suggest the prevalence and virulence of efb is increasing with time. 

the swiss have adopted a mandatory destruction by fire program and are making progress with eradication.

the u.k. leads the world in efb understanding and management by having a centralized program for dna typing of the various strains of efb.


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## BernhardHeuvel

squarepeg said:


> the u.k. leads the world in efb understanding and management by having a centralized program for dna typing of the various strains of efb.


Didn't know that. Either we don't look careful enough or there is much less EFB. In Germany at least. All we deal with is AFB here.


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## squarepeg

understood bernhard. the current thinking is that efb is morphing and becoming more of a threat. discovering efb bacteria can live for a long time in beebread and honey makes it more like afb in that the equipment has to be dealt with as well.

here is a very informative video presentation that is worth looking at when you have some spare time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0B9o4GHq7U&feature=youtu.be


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## clyderoad

> the u.k. leads the world in efb understanding and management by having a centralized program for dna typing of the various strains of efb.


It's likely the Brits don't know they are leading the world in efb understanding and management either! :scratch:



> anecdotal reports here in the u.s. suggest the prevalence and virulence of efb is increasing with time.


Only in the SE US. 
Traditional terramycin (or even tylosin) not effective if diagnosed and action taken timely? or is the secondary infections the problem?


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## squarepeg

clyderoad said:


> Only in the SE US.


i don't believe that is accurate.

when i say 'anecdotal' i am referring to direct personal communications with the leading bee entomology professor at auburn university, the research leader at beltsville bee lab in maryland, and the chief apiary inspector for alabama's apiary protection unit.

i'll defer to these 'experts' and when they tell me that efb is on the rise nationwide i'll accept that until i see evidence to the contrary.

all one has to do is look over the threads linked in post #1 on this thread to see reports of efb outbreaks in the u.s. including the southeast and elsewhere.

waiting for efb test kits and the time delay with obtaining the vfd necessary for ordering antibiotics can certainly contribute to efb advancing through an apiary and reaching a point of no return despite eventual treatment.

the surprising and most concerning facts the brits have uncovered are the ease at which the bacteria can spread within a yard and to nearby yards and the length of time the bacteria stays active in the food stores. they also prove that antibiotic treatment alone doesn't do much to keep efb from showing back up later.


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## wildbranch2007

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Didn't know that. Either we don't look careful enough or there is much less EFB. In Germany at least. All we deal with is AFB here.


correct me if I'm wrong as I never have paid much attention to it, but do you have large commercial beeks going from one end of the continent to the other? and how about package and nuc sales?


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## clyderoad

squarepeg said:


> i don't believe that is accurate.
> 
> when i say 'anecdotal' i am referring to direct personal communications with the leading bee entomology professor at auburn university, the research leader at beltsville bee lab in maryland, and the chief apiary inspector for alabama's apiary protection unit.
> 
> i'll defer to these 'experts' and when they tell me that efb is on the rise nationwide i'll accept that until i see evidence to the contrary.
> 
> all one has to do is look over the threads linked in post #1 on this thread to see reports of efb outbreaks in the u.s. including the southeast and elsewhere.
> 
> waiting for efb test kits and the time delay with obtaining the vfd necessary for ordering antibiotics can certainly contribute to efb advancing through an apiary and reaching a point of no return despite eventual treatment.
> 
> the surprising and most concerning facts the brits have uncovered are the ease at which the bacteria can spread within a yard and to nearby yards and the length of time the bacteria stays active in the food stores. they also prove that antibiotic treatment alone doesn't do much to keep efb from showing back up later.


I sense by this response that you have found yourself a new boogeyman ( eh new virulent strain, eh new enemy ) to combat. Sure hope the special queen genetics isn't going by the wayside now.


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## squarepeg

clyderoad said:


> I sense by this response that you have found yourself a new boogeyman...


you sense wrong clyde.

i was hoping you might sense that there is more to efb than some are acknowledging but alas, i'll hope no more.

i don't believe in boogeymen nor did i have any battles to fight with respect to my bees thriving off treatments season after season until some out of state packages were installed down the road and allowed to collapse...

are we still using prophylactic antibiotics in the spring and fall up there?


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## clyderoad

squarepeg said:


> you sense wrong clyde.
> 
> i was hoping you might sense that there is more to efb than some are acknowledging but alas, i'll hope no more.
> 
> i don't believe in boogeymen nor did i have any battles to fight with respect to my bees thriving off treatments season after season until some out of state packages were installed down the road and allowed to collapse...
> 
> are we still using prophylactic antibiotics in the spring and fall up there?


Only time will tell if I sense wrongly about your new found boogeyman or not. 

Blame, blame, blame. How about the beekeepers' responsibility and their inability to detect efb in their bees in a timely manner and treat it? 
At least take some action while waiting for test kits and vfd! Shake out on clean foundation, feed, requeen are all actions that could have been taken. Or just kill them off. Does anyone do that anymore? or do they wait and 'do nothing if they are unsure'?
It's a game for many, these bees, until it hits home and the pocketbook. Playing the game until it hurts, then get spooked and rationalize it away.

We? Up there? still using?
I live on a Island, I'm a stationary beekeeper, I raise my own bees, most times I know what comes in here and most times from who.

I'll bet my combs and equipment do not test + for antibiotics, can you make that same bet with yours? 
I don't know who treats prophylacticly, or if anyone actually does. I do know many beekeepers who know when and how to properly deal with a historic brood ailment like efb, but most of all they know how to detect it before it infects the whole operation and take action. 
Same with afb. 
There was a uptick in efb this spring in NY, anyone who pays attention expected it due to the late, wet, cold spring- and took care of it. Smart beekeepers know their bees.

It's a whole lot easier to talk about bees than it is to actually keep bees. Nothing has changed.


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## squarepeg

clyderoad said:


> Only time will tell...


yes, spring 2020 will upon us soon and we'll see what reporting we get with respect to efb.




clyderoad said:


> Blame, blame, blame. How about the beekeepers' responsibility and their inability to detect efb in their bees in a timely manner and treat it?


yes, i was very frank about blaming myself for getting caught with my pants down, perhaps you missed that post. my motivation for sharing the experience here is that others may be more prepared than i was.




clyderoad said:


> Or just kill them off.


yes, and destroying the infected comb will be my approach going forward.




clyderoad said:


> I don't know who treats prophylacticly, or if anyone actually does.


that's good to hear.




clyderoad said:


> Nothing has changed.


nope, sure hasn't.


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## Cloverdale

clyderoad said:


> It's likely the Brits don't know they are leading the world in efb understanding and management either! :scratch:
> 
> 
> 
> Only in the SE US.
> Traditional terramycin (or even tylosin) not effective if diagnosed and action taken timely? or is the secondary infections the problem?


Check out Enjambres (Nancy Wicker) ordeal with EFB, up in the Albany area. Nasty.


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## BernhardHeuvel

wildbranch2007 said:


> correct me if I'm wrong as I never have paid much attention to it, but do you have large commercial beeks going from one end of the continent to the other? and how about package and nuc sales?


Yes, we have large commercial beekeepers, mostly ranging from 1,000-3,000 hives, there are two with 7,000 hives and another in Austria with 10,000 hives. Of course we don't have as many like in the US, but we are a much smaller country. 

And of course those commercials (including myself as a rather small commercial) going back and forth the country (and into other countries, too) while hunting the honey across the country. We don't have the pollination business, though. 

What we have is a myriad of beekeeping beginners that want to "save the bees", but have no clue about bees (not a problem) and are not wanting to learn more about bees and beekeeping (problem). 

They set out foreign imported honey in their gardens to "feed the bees". If that is not enough, they wrote articles in newspapers and on the internet to encourage other people (public, no beeholders or beekeepers) to follow. What a help...

There are so many small stories I could tell you. One for example, had a bee coming to his balcony in the midst of the town. He was thinking that this bee lost it's home. Catched it with a tea infuser (you read right), got on a bus and drove all the way up to me in the country. Set the bee free in front of my house. Wrote me a note, that I please set up a bee hive, that the bee can find a home...

Those people are so far away what I call the real world, that I sometimes wonder how those people are able to survive.


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## wildbranch2007

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Those people are so far away what I call the real world, that I sometimes wonder how those people are able to survive.


guess it's not that different than here after all


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## crofter

Recognizing and acting on the very first signs of EFB is excellent advice; as usual though, the devil is in the details.

The first signs of EFB in a well populated hive would easily go unnoticed. With plenty of nurse bees the affected larvae are quickly removed. They dont get to the large, discolored and slumping stage that is so obvious in advanced cases. The vacated cells appear as a bit spotty brood, but this is common in cold climate spring colonies as a lot of cells are empty for occupation by heater bees. In early stages there will not be the secondary infections which are responsible for the commonly reported odors so that might not be an indicator.

I missed the first signs for certain and the delay in acting cost me colonies. I even made moves that are commonly recommended but dead wrong for verified Monococcus Plutons infection. 

Reading some of Flowerplanters advice was helpful. I remember thinking (long before I had the problem) that he was way over the top about EFB. I dont think that now!

Things got to be like this before I took action.


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## Cloverdale

I agree! This happened with a swarm my husband picked up; as soon as I saw the symptoms I dumped the whole hive; box, bees and frames. Grateful it was a small one. After viewing the UK’s National Honey Show videos on EFB and some people on this forums experiences lately, I am very cautious.


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## squarepeg

BernhardHeuvel said:


> There are so many small stories I could tell you.


we thank you for sharing them bernhard.

is it true that in germany beekeepers are required by law to use chemical treatments for varroa? and that they are subject to inspection for varroa by the government authorities?

is it also in germany illegal to hang swarm traps in the spring?

also interested in your book when it's ready for publication.


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## BernhardHeuvel

squarepeg said:


> is it true that in germany beekeepers are required by law to use chemical treatments for varroa? and that they are subject to inspection for varroa by the government authorities?


Not really. It is regulated in the law, but somewhat vague. No word of chemical treatment, just treatments. There never has been a case where someone got fined for not treating. 

It is stupid anyway. Varroosis is said to be a disease and has to be treated. But...we have a "animal disease fund". In case of losses by a disease, the beekeeper gets financial compensation. Well, except for varroa losses although it is listed as a disease in the law. So it is a listed disease and you should treat for mites, but in case of losses you don't get compensation although it is the law you get it. 

I guess, they don't say much if you are not treating and on the other hand you have to help yourself in case of losses. Everybody is fine with that.



squarepeg said:


> is it also in germany illegal to hang swarm traps in the spring?


Not only in Spring, all year round. The law says that all bee hives that are capable to house bees, have to be shut in case it is empty. Especially combs are not allowed in the open.


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## squarepeg

many thanks for the clarifications bernhard.

i'm guessing that those reading in other countries will find it strange that swarm traps are outlawed in germany.

so if a beekeeper in germany is not doing a good job with mite control season after season and affecting the neighboring beekeepers will the authorities deny that beekeeper a license to keep bees?

i wonder what the authorities in germany do if they should come up on a case of efb or afb? perhaps there is not much efb there due to mandatory destruction, like it is in switzerland?


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## squarepeg

clyderoad said:


> At least take some action while waiting for test kits and vfd! Shake out on clean foundation, feed, requeen are all actions that could have been taken. Or just kill them off.
> 
> I do know many beekeepers who know when and how to properly deal with a historic brood ailment like efb, but most of all they know how to detect it before it infects the whole operation and take action.
> Same with afb.
> 
> 
> There was a uptick in efb this spring in NY, anyone who pays attention expected it due to the late, wet, cold spring- and took care of it. Smart beekeepers know their bees.


is that to say you know personally many beekeepers having first hand experience with bona fide laboratory confirmed efb, and that these were successful in quickly eradicating the bacteria so that there was very little spread and no residual or recurring disease requiring retreatment or prophylactic treatment for awhile?

i'll commend ya'll for that; but even the brits who have been doing scientific comparisons of those various interventions you list are quick to admit that once entrenched in an apiary mellisococcus plutonius is pretty hard to eradicate.

i missed early detection and quick intervention that's for sure. it's hard to quantify how much spreading to nearby hives occurred while i was waiting for a diagnosis. 

the first two affected colonies were a little bit small coming out of winter compared to average, probably from doing a less than average job dealing with the high mite counts back during the previous fall brood up of winter bees. i chalked up these first two as having an issue with chilled brood, which was likely occuring after sharp drop in temperature. 

heckfire, the oldtimers as well as the state apiarists here couldn't tell me the last time efb had been diagnosed anywhere near here, so i wasn't really thinking efb.

the irony is that coming out of winter is the time in the yearly cycle that i am going into my hives most frequently, as in at least once a week and sometimes more if splitting ect. and not just popping the top, but rather going through the broodnests to checkerboard and open up the nest and pyramid brood up to the next box ect.

over the course of just one to two brood cycless those beautiful solid brood patterns seen especially in the strongest colonies (2+ 10 frame deeps worth of bees) went from wall to wall solid capped brood to less than 25% still capped with the nonviable brood removed by the nurse bees. the open brood was also spotty with not very many old larvae, but rather mostly young larvae with a few of them and their jelly turning bright yellow.

i'll be spreading mine out and won't exceed 3 or 4 hives per yard with a least a mile or separation going forward. anything positive on the vita efb test will be considered hazardous waste and treated as such.


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## little_john

BernhardHeuvel said:


> There are so many small stories I could tell you. One for example, had a bee coming to his balcony in the midst of the town. He was thinking that this bee lost it's home. Catched it with a tea infuser (you read right), got on a bus and drove all the way up to me in the country. Set the bee free in front of my house. Wrote me a note, that I please set up a bee hive, that the bee can find a home...
> 
> Those people are so far away what I call the real world, that I sometimes wonder how those people are able to survive.


What a lovely story ...

There is another guy (a Brit, I believe) who has come up with the idea of people who want to 'Save the Bees' can carry a credit-card which has been modified to hold a few drops of sugar solution, so that an emergency supply of syrup can be given to any bee that appears to be hungry. Strange times ...
LJ


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## JRG13

If you're not really sure on the issue, pull a frame of larva at night, the yellow will really stand out then and be very apparent, especially on older comb.


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## Fivej

Squarepeg: What kind of hygienic precautions do/will you take going from hive to hive or apiary to apiary? When the state apiarist inspected my hives for suspected efb (neg thankfully), he scrubbed his hive tool with water and comet cleanser with bleach and then soaked in alcohol. I do not know what, if anything he did with his suit/jacket. Nancy (Enjambres) who was kind enough to help me out dedicated a efb suit which she left here so as not to risk contamination to her apiary. J


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## squarepeg

Fivej said:


> Squarepeg: What kind of hygienic precautions do/will you take going from hive to hive or apiary to apiary?



good question, and the short answer is probably not as much as i should be fivej.

i use throw away nitrile gloves for handling frames.

i sterilize my hive tools by spraying them with alcohol, wiping them dry with a paper towel, and then flaming them with a propane torch.

i'll wash my suit every now and then.

i'll be more careful about transferring equipment and stores from one hive to another.

if i have to do much more than that to keep bees i'll probably hang it up.


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## wildbranch2007

Fivej said:


> Squarepeg: I do not know what, if anything he did with his suit/jacket. Nancy (Enjambres) who was kind enough to help me out dedicated a efb suit which she left here so as not to risk contamination to her apiary. J


the suit or cloths is the part that I really suspect is the piece of equipment that causes the problems, the few times I have been inspected they wore a veil and long sleeve shirt, they either switched hive tools and washed hands between yards, but the arms of the shirt were in contact with every hive. I carry a chefs "bib" in my truck that covers their bodies, but the sleeves are a problem. I'm not particularly worried about my own yard to yard, it's the other peoples yards that he came from that bother me.


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## Cloverdale

little_john said:


> What a lovely story ...
> 
> There is another guy (a Brit, I believe) who has come up with the idea of people who want to 'Save the Bees' can carry a credit-card which has been modified to hold a few drops of sugar solution, so that an emergency supply of syrup can be given to any bee that appears to be hungry. Strange times ...
> LJ


I wonder how they know a bee is hungry?


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## crofter

wildbranch2007 said:


> the suit or cloths is the part that I really suspect is the piece of equipment that causes the problems, the few times I have been inspected they wore a veil and long sleeve shirt, they either switched hive tools and washed hands between yards, but the arms of the shirt were in contact with every hive. I carry a chefs "bib" in my truck that covers their bodies, but the sleeves are a problem. I'm not particularly worried about my own yard to yard, it's the other peoples yards that he came from that bother me.


Boots too! I may have brought the EFB home that way myself but I have not seen bee inspectors doing more than shining up their hive tools! I have seen veterinarians being very cavalier about moving disease one farm to another. The old deal about rasping horses teeth was a dandy example! Ever try to sanitize a rasp?

Off topic but a good parallel. Trying to sanitize bee equipment without causing worse contamination would be a formidable task.


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## squarepeg

melissococcus plutonius is an anaerobic bacteria. for most anaerobes oxygen is toxic and they cannot survive long when exposed to it.

i've not been able to put my hands on any studies that show how easy it is or not to grow m.p. off of tools, clothes, ect., let alone say a frame of empty comb with no stores of any kind in it.

on the other hand it's easy to see how the organism could thrive at the bottom of a cell containing beebread or honey.


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## AHudd

Our inspector doesn't touch anything or use a hive tool. He wears latex gloves and changes them between inspections. I hope these precautions are adequate.

Alex


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## squarepeg

fortunately the bacteria associated with efb doesn't form long lived and virtually indestructible spores as is the case with afb.

afb is the one where you might as well through everything into a pit and then burn and bury, unless you have ionizing radiation available.

it would be helpful if some research types would look into how long and under what conditions m.p. can remain viable.

the folks at beltsville offered to test any equipment ect. that i wanted to send them. i thought about sending some of the empty comb from efb infected hives that i have rinsed out and then bleached to see if they could grow any m.p. off of it.

as of right now the strongest colony i have is a caught swarm that i installed into a double deep full of washed and bleached comb out of efb dead outs.


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## Andhors

Bernhard ,

Don’t leave us hanging! What happened to the bee? Did she make friends? Start any new hobbies?


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## Cloverdale

squarepeg said:


> fortunately the bacteria associated with efb doesn't form long lived and virtually indestructible spores as is the case with afb.
> 
> afb is the one where you might as well through everything into a pit and then burn and bury, unless you have ionizing radiation available.
> 
> it would be helpful if some research types would look into how long and under what conditions m.p. can remain viable.
> 
> the folks at beltsville offered to test any equipment ect. that i wanted to send them. i thought about sending some of the empty comb from efb infected hives that i have rinsed out and then bleached to see if they could grow any m.p. off of it.
> 
> as of right now the strongest colony i have is a caught swarm that i installed into a double deep full of washed and bleached comb out of efb dead outs.


https://youtu.be/z0B9o4GHq7U
UK honey show video on AFB/EFB I am not sure who has seen it. ?I don’t remember how in-depth it was regarding the lifetime of EFB outside the hive. I’ll watch again.


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## Cloverdale

Interestingly the EFB is found in the honey of an infected hive and can be transmitted that way.


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## squarepeg

thanks deb. i provided bernhard a link to that same video in post #5 of this thread. 

dr. stainton doesn't go into detail about how long efb can survive outside a hive. 

after an exhaustive search of the literature, i've given up on looking for an answer to that question. i don't believe anyone has looked at it.

it can hide in honey and beebread where it is protected from oxygen.


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## Cloverdale

sorry about that I should have looked at the earlier replies and posts!


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## squarepeg

bernhard if you are still following the thread,

how would the authorities there deal with a case of a beginner beekeeper purchasing 4 hives of bees and then completely neglect them, resulting in the collapse of all 4, and do this same thing for 3 years in a row for a total of 12 collapsed colonies? (assume nothing was done to prevent the robbing out of these hives after the collapses)

would the neighboring beekeepers have a legitimate complaint and could they compel the authorities to refuse a license to the negligent beekeeper?

in my state of alabama, the authorities tell me there is nothing that our laws allow them to do about this, and that such a beekeeper can continue to carry on doing this if they wish.

the only exception here is with afb, in which case a law allows the state authorities to come in and destroy the afb infected hives.

if my understanding is corrrect, a similar mandatory destruction directive is now in effect for efb hives in switzerland, and if over 50% of the hives in an apiary are infected then 100% of the hives are destroyed.


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## squarepeg

one of the rare finds i came up with on my literature search:











it's from here:

https://www.oie.int/eng/EMERGING_IN...tations/8_OIEBeeSymposium2017_DrCharriere.pdf

but the power point presentation does not provide a source for the graph.

the graph suggests that the efb bacteria in honey degrades to negligible after about a year.


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## Fivej

Cloverdale said:


> Interestingly the EFB is found in the honey of an infected hive and can be transmitted that way.


A good reason not to share honey among the hives or if you do, not to share it between apiaries. Also, feed sugar water to your caged/banked queens, not honey. Something I did before I knew better. J


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## BernhardHeuvel

squarepeg said:


> in my state of alabama, the authorities tell me there is nothing that our laws allow them to do about this, and that such a beekeeper can continue to carry on doing this if they wish.
> 
> the only exception here is with afb, in which case a law allows the state authorities to come in and destroy the afb infected hives.


Same here.


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## squarepeg

thank you for the reply bernhard.


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## squarepeg

i am bumping this thread and keeping it stickied even though the efb discussion has transitioned to newer threads. the information contained in 2019 threads linked in post #1 of this thread is still current and relevant.


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