# My new TBH with Supers



## SoarWestBees (Feb 15, 2011)

In the pictures of your hive it looks like there's foundation hanging from the top bars. I had thought top bar hives didn't use foundation? Am I seeing this wrong or what is the deal?


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

This is a brand new TBH and has not been used yet. Probably the picture is a bit deceiving. I think what you
see is my falseback that I will be using.
Bruce


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Nice work Beeheck, both the very attractive woodwork, and also the idea and design.

It will be very interesting to see how this goes.

One comment I'd make is I think the brood nest area (top bar part at bottom)might be a little small relative to the honey storage area. If you have a good strong honey flow where you are, the bees will move into the supers alright, but if the flow is not very strong, initially anyway, the bees may be reluctant to move up. Once you get past the hurdle of the first year and have drawn combs in the supers, the bees will move up much more readily. Is there comb foundation in the supers?

I'd love to see this work! And if you can pull it off you will probably be the highest producing TBH in the country!

Where are you getting the bees from?


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Thank you for the workmanship compliments. I appreciate your comments about where it will all go. I'm a new beekeeper and just passed my initial Beekeeper certification today and the funny thing is, I haven't had one bee in my hive. So, I look to you experienced ones to guide me. I'm getting a package of bees locally. 3 lbs. I'll use Italians and go from there.
I will obviously have to monitor the actual top bar hive carefully and really don't anticipate any honey for myself the first year. I will just keep an eye on the growth of the TBH. It has 24 top bars and is 37 inches long so I have to carefully watch its growth. I won't even put the supers on unless I have some kind of spectacular honey flow and then I'll put the super on. This is designed to put one super on and the other one you see is a standby. They are interchangeble. I won't think about harvesting any honey for myself until next spring. 
It was fun and my wife calls it the Ark of the Covenant.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well I don't know where you are getting the bees from, but I do know that some of them arrive with varroa mites already on the bees. So while they are still in the package is a great time to give them a sugar dusting and hit any mites that might be there while it's easy.

Italians with a good queen would be a great way to go to build up & do well, I see no reason why not to expect a honey crop this year. Don't be too slow to put the super on the hive, you don't want them to swarm for lack of room.

Keep us filled in how it's going!


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Oldtimer,

Ok, here's dumb question #400. How do you sugar dust a package of bees?

I've gotten some feedback from some other experienced beekeepers that think the super may be too deep and will not encourage them to climb that high up from the bottom TBH. I was planning on encouraging them with a comb from the bottom hive so it's already started for them. Your thoughts?

I'm buying the bees from a local beekeeper who teaches my classes and has a supply store. He buys his bees from a supplier and I don't know where they come from but I am also concerned about mites. This week, I'm going to cut a hole on the bottom of my TBH and put a screen in and a slide board probably made of masonite. My plan is to put vaseline on the slide board and check for mites as they drop from the hive through the screen and onto the board. I can slide the board out to check and/or remove it for some additional ventilation on hot days.
Bruce


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well I think those other guys might have a point,the bees will not go straight up into that super. Does it have comb foundation? If it doesn't it will be very difficult to get them up.

However your idea of coaxing them up with a couple of combs from the top bar section is excellent. A couple of brood combs would be best, if you put them up & get bees working them for a few days, and provided there's enough bees up there, then put one of your lang frames in between them so the bees will work on it. If this goes well a few days later put another lang frame in between. Once you've got about three drawn lang frames then return the TB combs to the TB section.

Re the sugar dusting, just tip the package on it's side and sprinkle icing sugar over the bees, and give the package a bit of a jiggle around to spread the icing sugar over all the bees. Put the package on it's side, over white paper or similar, and leave for say, 5 minutes, so the mites that drop off will be visible against the white background & you'll know if there was a mite problem or not.

Because of the exponential way mites breed, every mite you kill at this stage will greatly take away from their population later. Some say not to worry about mites because TBH's don't get them, not my experience.

I'm really wanting to see your idea go well and knocking off the mites will be a big factor in that.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> ..Some say not to worry about mites because TBH's don't get them, not my experience...


Oh they get them. I've got TBH's and by November, my bees had thousands of mites. Natural comb is not an automatic mite-away from the start. I think its something you have to work toward.

Adam


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## Ueli Hoffmann (Jan 26, 2011)

Beeheck said:


> I've gotten some feedback from some other experienced beekeepers that think the super may be too deep and will not encourage them to climb that high up from the bottom TBH. I was planning on encouraging them with a comb from the bottom hive so it's already started for them. Your thoughts?


I have a top-bar hive that works with medium 8-frame Langstroth supers or Warré boxes. I had good luck with the bees moving up to the Langstroth super with just a line of foundation wax in the top-bar grooves of foundationless frames.

Here are a couple of photos. Twelve weeks after I installed a 3# package they had thirteen bars in the TBH and had moved up into the super.



















But...

"In beekeeping, as in most endeavors, there are many ways to accomplish the same task and many interpretations of the same facts or data, just as many roads lead to the same destination, although it is equally true that different individuals following the same road can arrive at different destinations." - _The Queen Must Die and Other Affairs of Bees and Men_


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Ueli,

That almost is identical in construction to my top bar hive and access bars to my super. The only difference is that I constructed my own supers to fit exactly the top bar hive. This is hopeful to hear your bees went up and started new combs. Again, the only difference for me will be that I will be using only top bars in the super, not foundationless langstroths, but thanks for the great pictures and feedback.
I also found it interesting that you used a deeper super instead of the shallow ones.
As to mites, I am going to cut out the bottom of my top bar hive and put a screen and sliding masonite board in to at least be able to monitor the mites.
Bruce


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Ueli,

I noticed you have falsebacks on the front and back of your tbh access bars to your super. Was this just for the picture or was there something specific you were trying to accomplish by positioning them as you show in the picture?
Bruce


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## Ueli Hoffmann (Jan 26, 2011)

By "falsebacks" I assume you are referring to the sliding "follower boards". These are used to adjust and divide the hive to the space needed for the colony. The follower boards allow the use of many management strategies.

I don’t want to hijack your thread so I'll just post a few links you may find helpful. 

http://www.biobees.com/

http://www.warrebeek.com/fhhive.html

http://www.warrebeek.com/fhhive2tier.html

http://beenatural.wordpress.com/top-bar-hives/management/working/


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## volker (Dec 7, 2010)

Ueli,
are you using 19" Top Bars? Hand what are the dimensions of your TB hive body?

This looks very nice and it makes sence the to interchange with standard Langs.

I have 3 healthy Langs now and am about to build a KTBH, but have not settled on dimenssions yet.

Volker


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## Ueli Hoffmann (Jan 26, 2011)

volker said:


> Ueli,
> are you using 19" Top Bars? Hand what are the dimensions of your TB hive body?
> 
> This looks very nice and it makes sence the to interchange with standard Langs.
> ...


The hive body internal dimentions are W 28 cm x H 35 cm x L 99 cm that's roughly W 11" x H 13 3/4" x L 39". This width and height are taken from Johann Thür in his book Bienenzucht: Naturgerecht einfach und erfolgsicher (1946).


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## volker (Dec 7, 2010)

Ueli,
Nestduftwaermebindung - I read the german original 1946 book and much of what he figured out was way before his times.
What I did not know was that those dimmesions would fit a Langs super.
Your design makes good structural sense particuarly when adding supers.

But don't you have comb attachement issues with those big tob bar combs of 11"x13 3/4" without frames against the straight side walls?

Volker


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## Ueli Hoffmann (Jan 26, 2011)

volker said:


> What I did not know was that those dimmesions would fit a Langs super.


The side walls of my TBH are 1 1/2" thick which adds to the overall width. An 8-frame super turned sideways (the bees don't care) sets nicely on the top-bars. Just build your overall TBH length in increments of 19 3/4" (the length of a Langstroth super) or make a blank to fill the difference beneath the roof.



volker said:


> But don't you have comb attachement issues with those big tob bar combs of 11"x13 3/4" without frames against the straight side walls?


The bees will attach intermittently with small passageways (peripheral galleries) along the comb edge. A long thin knife blade held at an angle slicing slowly upward frees the comb. Eventually the bees accept the cut.


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## volker (Dec 7, 2010)

Ok, I understand the comb detachment issue and form factor relationship. It is great that you can take off any one of the three super (or Warre) to reach into your Fankenhive. On a hot day how do these 11" x 13 3/4" TBH combs handle when some comb is filled with honey or full of honey?


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## Ueli Hoffmann (Jan 26, 2011)

volker said:


> On a hot day how do these 11" x 13 3/4" TBH combs handle when some comb is filled with honey or full of honey?


On hot days if I have to move the combs I do it in the morning. On real hot days I leave them alone - Nestduftwärmebindung!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Any updates?


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

I don't get my package of bees until April 13th. Sorry. I'll update the forum when I'm getting a little further down the road.
Bruce


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Ok, got my package of Italians and the installation went very well. I have a friend with an identical top bar hive and package and she set the box of bees in the hive and came out a few hours later and half the bees were still in the box. I dumped my bees in immediately and for the few remaining bees set up a ramp for them out front and they climbed right in. My hive is very active. The queen was released fairly quickly because I cut a starter hole in the candy plug. I don't think she was in there more than a few hours. My friend didn't start the candy and more star comb was on the queen box than mine. Her hive seems to be less active. My hive is already strung out 6 to 7 bars back from the front in just 2 days and drawing comb like crazy. Hers is drawing comb on 2 or 3 bars. It's very good to be able to compare like this. Here's my question. We both have bottle feeders in the back of the hive with a follower board in the middle of the hive. I've cut out a 1 inch hole in the bottom of the board and I see about 30 or so bees drinking. How long can I leave the current solution in the hive before I need to change it out? Doesn't it ferment or turn bad?
At this rate, I'm thinking I might be able to add the supers I designed for the top of the TBH sooner, rather than later, but that depends on my bees.
Bruce


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very exciting Beeheck! Isn't it great when a plan comes together!

Regarding how long to leave the syrup, depends how thick it's mixed, temperature and other variables but a safe number is to feed not more than they'll take in a week. Can usually go longer than that if you have to though.

You will have a big burst of activity now, but it will be 3-4 weeks before your first brood is hatching, by which time older bees are dying. So growth of the hive can slow somewhat and then pick up again once there's plenty of emerging young bees. So for now, the quick build up and comb building is laying a good foundation for the months to come.

Once you feel they are ready for the super, taking a comb or two from the existing hive and temporarily at least, hanging them in the super, will encourage the bees to go up into it. They may be quite reluctant to move up into a totally empty super.

Anyhow very much looking forwards to updates over the next few months.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Feed them all they want to get them up and running 
they will stop or slow down after they build comb 
They have that Go go go attitude now 
They want the Queen to have holes to place eggs
so they are working overtime of comb
They may also slow down when the flow is on 
at that point, is when you need to watch the syrup 
It may go green 
I had that happen and asked about how to avoid it 
was told too use a bit of bleach 
or apple cider vinegar?
I have decided if it sits long enough to turn 
They no longer need it 

BTW I put a super on my KTBH a month ago and just last week
they started too build a little bit in it 
AS a test I put in plastic ell and foundation-less frames 
They hit the foundation-less first 


Tommyt


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Plastic? Arrrgh!!

Bees hate it!

Well, maybe not hate. But they'll certainly accept wax better.


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Thanks Oldtimer. I appreciate learning about the timeline for brood and I thought I would do what you recommend and place a couple of combs upstairs when and if, they start to fill up the TBH.
Looking good so far, though. Lots of activity.


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

This may sound strange but I sat down about two feet from my TBH yesterday and spent over an hour just watching the bees come and go. What I saw was a lot of bees leaving and many returning but only about 1 in 30 or so came back with pollen. I know bees have various duties outside like getting water, but what does it mean when so many return with what appears to be no pollen? I set up a chicken water feeder about 6 feet to the side of the hive with rocks in it for landing pads but I've yet to see a bee take a drink. Are they not into water now because they have the syrup? Otherwise, the hive is very active and I need to check the syrup today because it dropped fairly quickly over the last two days. I won't spend much time doing this as I'm still in the first 4 days of putting a package in.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That can be quite normal with the pollen, especially before there is a major honey flow. They will use your water if there is nothing more to their preference somewhere else.


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

I must be one lucky guy. I hear all these horror stories about installing a package and cross combs being built and I just keep my fingers crossed. I installed my package on Wednesday, April 13th. Two days later, I went in and removed the queen box. She had been released. I've been watching the bees coming and going and they're drinking the sugar syrup which is located on the other side of the follower board (I cut a hole in it for them to go back to the feeder). They're drinking and the syrup has to be monitored every couple of days but they know where it is and they're drinking. I opened the hive today ( I know, I think it was a tad premature, but I couldn't wait) and it was 85 degrees out. They are already building comb on 8 of the 12 bars I've given them. The follower board is right after top bar number 12. So they are building like crazy. I saw the queen right in the middle of the hive. I couldn't see any eggs though. So here's my question. If the queen looks healthy and active, is there a good chance she's a successful queen even though all I could see was nectar and pollen? I just didn't have the right glasses to take a close look but I'm thinking if the queen looks good, she's probably laying eggs. Am I correct here?
I am going to wait a little longer (about a week) before I open it up again and see what's happening.
Oh yeah. These bees are the most docile creatures. I think I could be naked and they would not be bothered by me at all. I spent 15 minutes looking through the hive and not one of them gave me the time of day.
Bruce


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Eggs are very hard to see on new white comb. When you check back in a week you will probably see larvae.

I'm thinking this hive sounds like the next issue will be swarm prevention. Once it's getting pretty full of bees make sure you give them that super to move into before they get crowded and go into swarming mode.


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Checked my bees today and everything was perfect. Saw the queen on the 2nd top bar I looked at from the back. Larvae and capped pupae are nicely distributed on both sides with nectar and honey above. Every comb is good and straight.
I've spent a lot of time watching these girls. I just sit down next to the hive and watch the activity. Bees are going out of the hive and back in steadily but I don't see that much pollen being brought into the hive. Here's the question. Should I be seeing a lot more bees bringing in pollen now? The hive is growing and combs are being built. I would have thought by now, just about every bee would be coming back to the hive carrying pollen. Is this a misconception and only one out of 40 or 50 bees actually bring back the bacon?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Normally it's only a few bees returning with pollen. Imagine if every bee brought in 2 baskets of pollen, every trip. How could they possibly raise enough brood to eat all that!

Best way to discover if they have enough, is look inside the hive. There should be a smattering of pollen stored in some of the combs. Once the bees are established they might have what is almost a dedicated pollen comb, containing quite a bit of pollen. If you see almost no stored pollen, the bees may be short on it.

Another good thing is to keep a beekeeping dairy. You will find at certain parts of the season the bees are gathering heaps of pollen, or nectar, and at other times, not enough. Just depends what's flowering at the time. This information will be of great help to your management in future years as you will know wether or not you need worry about pollen / honey supplies, at a particular time of the year.


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## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

As I don't have a second hive to compare with, I'm glad you're making updates. Mine appear to be about where yours are. Installed on the 17th. A week ago yesterday I released the queen. A week ago tomorrow they had 4 drawn combs perfectly along the guides. Mine are barely touching the syrup, but there have been acres and acres of dandelion in bloom around here. Like you, I'm also seeing about 1 in 40 girls coming in with pollen. I'm assuming (hoping) the rest have nectar or water.

I'll check them tomorrow late morning before I go in for an outpatient surgery. Won't be able to do much for a few days. Hopefully, I'll find some larvea and capped stores. Would love to find the Big Girl.


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

The Tulip Poplar is in full bloom here and on my property I have quite a number of these trees. There is going to be a lot of nectar from these. I also have quite a bit of honeysuckle as well and just now starting to flower out. I opened up my window to my hive and they're taking less syrup and I noticed a lot of my bees were doing the "waggle" which my understanding is they are giving directions to all of this pollen and nectar they found. I'm in the middle of lots flower and tree blooming so I will be removing the syrup in the next couple of days. I don't know how I get so lucky but again today, while looking through the observation window the queen walked around one comb and back into another right in front of me. Straight comb, apparently a healthy queen and lots of nectar and pollen for my girls. Looks good for my first early spring. I have about 10 top bars at various stages of drawn comb with larvae and capped brood on many of them in the middle. I'm guessing 5 or 6 of the comb have brood. I've got a 24 top bar hive so I have plenty for them to grow but since I only inserted the package on the 13th of April, we're moving along pretty good.


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

I'm about a day or two from some new bees born and excited to see the results. All my comb is straight still and loaded with capped brood, nectar and pollen. I did see something interesting today. While looking out the window I saw a huge cloud of bees swirling in the air not 30 feet from the house. Thousands of bees and my first thought it was my hive and they were swarming. I immediately went to the hives but after looking through the demo window and watching their activity, these weren't my bees. Then I saw some of my worker bees pushing drone bees out of the hive. Not all the drones, just some of them. I didn't think this would be an activity I'd see until Fall. Any thoughts on what this might be? All I could come up with was these might have been drones from the swarm I saw, but then wouldn't I see other bees checking out my hives besides just drones?
Bruce


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It's a behavoiur consistant with swarming. You can know in a few days by looking in the combs and seeing if there are new eggs there. If so, they still have the queen so didn't swarm.

But BTW it's very unlikely a new package would swarm before their first brood is even hatched. Did you catch the swarm?


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Couldn't find the swarm and my hive looks fine. I expect if the weather gets warmer tomorrow I should take a look. I think I'm expecting babies :0)
Bruce


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Hive inspection today on a mild day of about 69 degrees. I was concerned about how cool it was but there was neglible wind so I went for it. I spent 15 minutes to reduce the exposure but I was absolutely pleased with the results. It looks like they are focusing on the bars they are working on and not building any new bars but the existing bars look classic. Nectar, honey and pollen in the bar closest to the front opening and by the 2nd bar through 6 bars I now see a very nice pattern of capped brood, pollen and honey on the top. Combs are getting bigger and more capped brood is seen. I saw what look like fuzzier and grayer bees which I assume are new adults who just came out so I've got new bees. All the way back to almost the last bar I have this pattern. The last bar is smaller and already has some capped honey and the rest of the comb is white and appears empty but could either be the start of eggs or just capped honey. Lots of larva visible as well throughout. Bees are still docile and unconcerned about me. I could have gone in without any veil or gloves. Saw the queen again on the 2nd to last bar. Every time I go in I see her which is great. I'm just wondering now, when do they start building more new comb and building out. Are they waiting for new foragers to help out? It seems they've almost stopped building and focused on their existing combs.


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## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

I think the deal is that they build more comb when the flow is heaviest and there's excess. Comb production takes more resources than most anything.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

It's only been 3 weeks since you installed your package. Many of the bees that came in the package will be nearing or have come to the end of their life so you will have a slow down in comb production until the new bees emerge. Once they get their numbers back up they will start to expand again.


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

It's now been 26 days since I installed my package and my hive is really active today. I just walked over to the hive and there are a lot of bees circling in front of the hive. A couple on the landing board are facing towards the entry with their butts up in the air. The bees that are circling are facing the front of the hive and just kind of circling around in front of it. I have plenty of room in the hive and I would think I've got some brood that have hatched. What are these bees outside doing? I don't think they are preparing to swarm. Could these bees be new foragers orienting themselves before they start going out? My friend's other top bar hive has normal activity and we put packages in the same day. 
Bruce 



Delta Bay said:


> It's only been 3 weeks since you installed your package. Many of the bees that came in the package will be nearing or have come to the end of their life so you will have a slow down in comb production until the new bees emerge. Once they get their numbers back up they will start to expand again.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

I thought that the ones on my top bar with thier back side facing out were the ones cooling the hive, I can see them just standing there with their wings going 90 to nothing


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes that's a point, is there enough ventilation, and is there a big enough entrance for the bees to easily come and go.

Also if you get concerned about the hive swarming, you can do the Top Bar equivalent of checkerboarding, which is to spread the brood out a bit and put an empty bar or two in the brood area to keep the bees and queen busy. You don't need to worry about the hive getting too filled with brood and bees because your hive is superable.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Beeheck said:


> A couple on the landing board are facing towards the entry with their butts up in the air.


If you look closely you should be able to see their sent gland is exposed on the back of their abdomen. They are scenting to call the orienting girls home. That's if this is what you are seeing. When fanning their butts turn down so looks very different. 



> What are these bees outside doing? I don't think they are preparing to swarm. Could these bees be new foragers orienting themselves before they start going out?


They are orienting and some will start to forage, some are out to relieve themselves. As more brood emerges you will see more of this as the house bees are freed up to do outside work.


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## Beeheck (Oct 10, 2010)

Hive inspection at about 32 days from the initial package put in. Replaced Syrup. About 13 top bars in various stages but all healthy. Lots of new babies. Almost broke off a large top bar by tilting it while inspecting. A real "duh" moment. But still attached and put back into the hive safely. Saw the queen on bar 3 so she's going back to the beginning and laying more eggs. Significant growth and seeing lots of capped brood, honey, pollen and capped honey on last top bar at about 30% completed. Saw about 3 top bars where they were adding new comb a little crooked so I went in and cut the comb loose from the top bar and moved it over to align it straight. All in all, a very good day.


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