# Queen Checking in Almonds



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Here is a fun little thing for those of you that winter your hives in northern states and move them directly into almonds:
We winter our hives right here in Salem Oregon.
At the appointed time, they are loaded up and moved directly into our growers almonds where we thoroughly inspect and work them prior to bloom.
The first thing that I do when i pop the lid is to lower the palm of my hand right down to the top bars as close as possible, sometimes touching the bees and try to sense heat.
The heat of a queen-rite hive is barely noticeable to your palm. (double deeps)
A Brood less or queen less hive seems cooler.
The difference is VERY SUBTLE!

But if you take a second and test each hive, make your call, and then dive in and see what is going on, you will get really good at it.
I wish I had real data for you as to my accuracy; I don't.

Maybe I'll keep track this year just to be a statistics nerd and report back.
It seems that after several years of doing this, I am really close to 100%.
Close, but not there yet.
Things like position of the brood nest alters things, of course.

Now before you get out the straight jacket, there are valuable uses for this once you build your confidence.
Last year I found a drone layer that needed repair but didn't record the hive number.
DOG-GONE-IT!!!!
I remembered which pallet but not which hive.
After returning to the hive with a nuc, I quickly read the temperatures with the palm of my hand and nailed it, "It's this one!".

Cool skill. Learning it breaks up monotony. High error rate at first.
Try it!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

That's not crazy at all.

Roland


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## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

Harry ever had any luck in listening to the buzz and humm of the bees I've been told there is a difference when they are queenright and not? I guess I am not that good because I cannot. I will give your method a try this year in the almonds.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Absolutely, Jake.
Roaring, running, fanning; You are likely queenless.
We find a number of those every year as well.
Thank heavens for overwintered mini mating nucs and pallets of 5 framers!!

The problem that I am addressing, mainly, are queens that tapered off in the fall as they all do but did not resume egg laying, or resumed, but became drone layers.
These result in a cooler hive temp that can be detected ONLY AFTER self training to sense the slightest temperature variation..
Try it. It breaks monotony and can return a killer beekeeping skill.
Don't expect to become an expert overnight.
I get better at this assessment each year.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Harry,

What about a thermometer? 

It is a great skill to have. I use a subtle variation when checking nucs, but also based on the temp. of the brood nest. The ease with which the first frames separate and the coloring of any tid bits of wax on the frame edges are my indicators. Again it is subtle and relative, but with a queen and brood the frames separate a little easier than a queen less or broodless box. I can kind of get a feel for it when the cover comes off, but that has not been as reliable as just starting to spread the frames.

It has become a game... I still need to check the II queens, just trying to guess if they are there or not.

The subtleties of beekeeping.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

how about one of the Non-contact Digital Laser IR Infrared Thermometer


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## Gazelle (May 17, 2015)

And yet another great tip for this want a bee!


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Jerry Bromenshenk did a presentation in CA this week on the FLIR units for IR, He showed what your saying in a Image. The queenless hives the bees were "all over" and in the queen right the hive the cluster was concentrated......

Hard to describe in text super simple to see his image.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

lazybhoney said:


> The queenless hives the bees were "all over" and in the queen right the hive the cluster was concentrated......


Makes sense, those queenless clusters just don't seem to be organized. When I used to sample all of the colonies for tracheal mites in February, I saw something similar. After a while I could almost guess the percentage of workers infested by the density and activity level of the cluster. The more mites, the more activity there was.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Yes queenless clusters are not "tight". Bees are loose, as in not organized when they are queenless. It is obvious after opening the first 50 000 hives or so. I am in complete agreement with Jerry B and labybhoney. Saves time when working hives. No need to check the good ones, just the problem ones. I will check the odd good one to see the size of the brood nest, and to get a feel for how things are progressing for the season. Not much sense spending too much time trying to figure out why some hives ain't broke.

Jean-Marc


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

wildbranch2007 said:


> how about one of the Non-contact Digital Laser IR Infrared Thermometer


Another tool that you need from Harbor freight.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

EastSideBuzz said:


> Another tool that you need from Harbor freight.


I just love finding excuses to buy new / more tools.
That is not what this thread is all about.
This thread is all about developing advanced beekeeping skills.
Jake and Joe added two additional symptoms that beekeepers should instantly be able to evaluate.
Here is another one that most of us are familiar with; alarm pheromone.
I was hoping that this thread would focus upon the most valuable tool that a beekeeper can own; the area between their ears.
What skills would you identify in a beekeeper with a high level of expertise that you admire?

Those are the skills I want to learn and focus upon.
Nothing in our industry replaces a great beekeeper!
Becoming a great beekeeper is not something you can write a check for and purchase.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Yes you are right. I have learned tons from you posts on the forums you are on. Sorry for taking the thread in cheap Chinese direction. I really like the idea of the mini mating nuc's through the winter. I do nucs but, have not gone that small yet. Interested to know how you insulate them or to you keep them indoors? How do you keep that small of a cluster alive over the 30 degree winter. Having backup queens for almonds would be awesome.

thanks again for all your advice and guidance.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

JSL said:


> Harry,
> 
> What about a thermometer?
> 
> ...


Yes, you are on the mark here. It's the subtleties that must be experienced and are difficult to describe. We spend long days in the spring doing checkbacks and you do get a sense instantly when you pull the lid. Among the things I have noticed, in addition to hive roar,is that queenright hives don't seem to tolerate as many drones within the cluster. I used to dismiss this as proof of a drone layer until I stopped to realize that these nucs hadn't had the time to produce excessive drones. Also, (and you can call me crazy) but it seems to me that I notice a certain "fraying" or "feathering" of the outside edges of the cell walls within the cluster in queenless hives, almost as if the bees chew on them because they are ****** off that they don't contain normal worker larvae.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

jim lyon said:


> Also, (and you can call me crazy) but it seems to me that I notice a certain "fraying" or "feathering" of the outside edges of the cell walls within the cluster in queenless hives, almost as if the bees chew on them because they are ****** off that they don't contain normal worker larvae.


Jim that is a good one too! I don't think you are crazy, regardless of what anyone else has to say. 
Queenless bees cannibalize brood, starting with the youngest open brood first. It always amazes me to see how quickly a colony senses it is queenless. When I start down a row caging queens, it isn't very long before I can look back and see increased frantic activity and flight activity from those I already pulled queens from.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

jean-marc said:


> It is obvious after opening the first 50 000 hives or so.


Jean-Marc, this is so true and the point I think many of the commercials have tried to make to aspiring commercials! Time and experience are great teachers. I am sure Harry runs his hand across the top bars without giving it a second thought. Perhaps most watching him wouldn't even notice him doing it... but learning what is NOT right is significant, because that is often what requires attention from the beekeeper.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Here is a fun little thing


Funny that you mention that Harry. I don't use your heat hand trick, but I do play a game with myself when opening hives determining its status before I actually dig down into it. I have gotten real good at "knowing" what's going on inside just my looking from the outside. I only dig down into the nest once or twice a year, unless I read the hive as being an issue. And by identifying those problem hives through the year simply by looking from the outside of the nest I have made myself $$$ by fixing up the fixer upers!  Always listing, always watching, and always asking


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The easiest sign to spot trouble midsummer is simply a lack of white work. No white work=no young bees=queenlessness. Almost without exception.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

jim lyon said:


> The easiest sign to spot trouble midsummer is simply a lack of white work. No white work=no young bees=queenlessness. Almost without exception.


That is useful advice. Insight plus experience.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Good tips. Thank you all.

When I open a hive and see the bees too scattered across the frames and more nervous with erratic movements like that aimlessly over the frames this is a beehive that I will inspect in great detail frame by frame.


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## marios (Nov 20, 2012)

this is the treads we learn from thank you for sharing your experience. i think this is one of those great experiences even i can learn from


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

jean-marc said:


> It is obvious after opening the first 50 000 hives or so. Jean-Marc


Well I have to open only 49900 more before I get this down ...:lookout:

But will start watching and checking.

Larry - are you doing this with a bare palm?


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

marshmasterpat said:


> Larry - are you doing this with a bare palm?


Pete, yes. Bare hands as always.


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