# Seeking Ideas for a New Lid Design



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think a notch is very elegant... just one piece of wood. Half of mine are reduced with a piece of screen molding (3/4" x 1/4" x 10" leaving a 2 1/2" or so opening on my eight frame hives.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Does there exist some sort of very durable material available in 16.25" widths? Some material like composite decking. Actually, come to think of it, composite decking might make good lids. Those PVC trim boards are nice too, but they cost like $25 a stick.

The optimum would be something that would be one piece, or maybe three, no need to paint, durable, waterproof, etc.

Some Googling finds a product called "Nylosheet" as well as other composite decking sheets, but it looks like the price is in the range of $200-$400 a sheet. Best I can figure is about ten lids from one sheet. On the lower end, that's not terrible for a quality product, but on the upper end, that's no good.

I also found some fiberglass reinforced polyurethane foam boards which look interesting, but can't find a source.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

HardieBoard??


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I doubt that would work, too thin. However, that does give me another idea. What if I made a form and cast concrete lids? I could mold in all the parts I want and I wouldn't need bricks to hold the lids on. The downside would be that concrete has an insulating value of R 0.125 per inch whereas wood has more like R 1 per inch. They would need insulation in the winter to reduce the possibility of condensation. Of course I could mold them with a sloped roof so that the condensation drips down the walls rather than on the cluster but then there would be problems with bee space.

What about fiberglass resin?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

If money were no object, I would have a custom molded plastic over polyisocyanurate core lid made. It would do away with a lot of the hassles of current lids.

A few years ago, I had a few colonies set out in a field in direct sunshine. I had some old sheets of roofing tin 3 feet wide by about 4 feet long. I put one on top of each colony and placed cinderblocks on top to keep it in place. My only intent was to provide a bit of heat relief. After a few months, I noticed that these colonies had much less moisture damage where boxes butt into each other. The bees were foraging much more instead of hauling water to cool things down.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Solomon, check out my migratory lids that have the concept you seem to be looking for. Post #14
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?264860-Upper-top-entrance-design-Korschgen


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Yeah, that looks pretty good. How do you finish the plywood? What's the durability?

I'd love to do exactly that but using something a little more durable than plywood, like composite decking.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I think Marine Plywood is the stuff.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

This is a design I came up with a few years ago...if the plywood warps it isn't so good, but I did like how the entrance was setup (there was a slot where a block or queen excluder can be slid in).


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Cement board is available in 1/2" thickness in 3'x5' sheets:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_65361-325-1...1&currentURL=?Ntt=tile+backerboard&facetInfo=

You can notch it with a tile nibbling tool or tile saw.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

That's nice Dean, how is it made?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

BeeGhost said:


> Solomon, check out my migratory lids that have the concept you seem to be looking for. Post #14


In a pinch, you could flip it over and use at as SoBB also........


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> That's nice Dean, how is it made?


I think I have a couple of unfinished blanks around that will make it clear, but I'm traveling at the moment.

A single piece of plywood...I cut a slot partway through the board along the front (for the entrance block or queen excluder strip).

On the RAS with a dado blade, I carve out the 3 entrance cuts (it helps to have a stop of some kind for how far the blade travels...a big C clamp is what I usually use).

Then I glue 3/16 strips around the edges, which provides proper bee space and strengthens the front edge where the groove is cut.

I think between the photo and the description you will get the idea.

deknow


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Interesting idea. Seems you could simplify it by not cutting the slots so far past the front edge. It doesn't really give the bees anymore space or access to the opening. As long as the slot is 1-1/8" into the plywood from the front edge, you'll have your 3/8" bee space on each one without weakening the edge. Especially since Sol only wants half a square inch in total area, one slot is all that's needed.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Interesting concept. Also reversible for times when a top entrance might encourage robbing. I am wondering if rugged end cleats could somehow be incorporated into this design. We used to have some old wooden shingle lids of a somewhat similar recessed design that for some mysterious reason always seemed to have a strong hive under them.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Sure, instead of stripping the edge with the 3/16" wood, screw a 3/4x 2-1/2" or 3-1/2" cleat on each end like conventional migratory lids.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When I was pouring concrete, in a previous life, our wall forms were a kind of rosin impregnated plywood. I don't know what it was called, it just came that way, but it was very smooth and very durable and stood up well to being exposed to wet concrete all the time. I would guess it would make a great lid. I think someone on here has mentioned some product that sounds like the same thing.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Phenolic plywood? $66 for a quarter sheet as far as I can find.

Apparently there is also HDPE plywood, or sheets.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> When I was pouring concrete, in a previous life, our wall forms were a kind of rosin impregnated plywood. I don't know what it was called, it just came that way, but it was very smooth and very durable and stood up well to being exposed to wet concrete all the time. I would guess it would make a great lid. I think someone on here has mentioned some product that sounds like the same thing.


Its awesome stuff and pretty much all we use for both lids and bottom panels on our pallets. Its 1/2" 7 (and some 9) ply. They never warp and rarely delaminate. We were fortunate enough to buy some large quantities of them used. If you can find some go for it, a little residual concrete isnt that big an issue. I have heard that prices on new are out of sight. 
http://s470.photobucket.com/user/jimlyon/media/Bee stuff/2009Mix300.jpg.html?sort=6&o=6


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It sounds as if finding it used would be the key to it being practical...


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

jim lyon said:


> I am wondering if rugged end cleats could somehow be incorporated into this design.


After seeing the photo of your lids, looks like you use a 3/4" cleat under the plywood top? Seems you could still put the 3/8" deep dados into the plywood and attach your cleats right on/over them, still giving channels for the bees to access.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

jim lyon said:


> If you can find some go for it, a little residual concrete isnt that big an issue.


I think I found some!

http://www.formingamerica.com/

About 2 miles away, I see they have used plywood for sale. I'd be surprised if they have 1/2" thick though.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I have only seen it in 1/2". I think that's the standard.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

There was a thread years ago about a standard Western cover made 3/4" longer than usual. The under cleat was 1 1/2" wide on one end with a slot missing in the middle with normal 3/4" wide cleats on the other end and sides. If one let that 1 /2" cleat over hang, the entrance would be open. If one pushed the end with the 1 1/2" cleat against the box , the end cleat of the lid would close the entrance by being against the box. Did I explain that right?

Radar, can you find that thread?

Now that I contemplate that, probably the end under cleats were the same width with one having the slot.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I don't know if you explained it right, but I think I get it. That's a good idea.

How durable is regular painted plywood? I've been using lumber, but it warps over time.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Two older threads that may be related to Ollie's comments, but I didn't find a thread that is clearly 'the one':
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?199331-Commercial-Top-Design

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?212558-why-telescoping-covers


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

Not sure if anyone mentioned this. what if you molded concrete around a styrofoam lid. you could have your weight and your r value


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

odfrank said:


> There was a thread years ago about a standard Western cover made 3/4" longer than usual. The under cleat was 1 1/2" wide on one end with a slot missing in the middle with normal 3/4" wide cleats on the other end and sides. If one let that 1 /2" cleat over hang, the entrance would be open. If one pushed the end with the 1 1/2" cleat against the box , the end cleat of the lid would close the entrance by being against the box. Did I explain that right?
> 
> Radar, can you find that thread?
> 
> Now that I contemplate that, probably the end under cleats were the same width with one having the slot.


I find this idea really intriguing. Apologies to Sol for hijacking this thread but some good lid ideas have been brought forth here. The "holy grail" of lids from my perspective is a cleated, recessed lid with a flat top in which a provision can be easily made,without extra materials, to use either with or without a top entrance. Making them a bit longer is an interesting concept. I don't feel shimming lids up is a real good option as a weight is often required to hold them down (certainly not a problem for many folks), an overly large entrance can result and they can't be readily stacked with the lids propped. 
To answer Sols recent question, a 3/4" exterior grade plywood is about all I would consider using if I weren't able to locate any of the aforementioned concrete form boards and I would definitely paint them and give them a front cleat to help with warping stability and to help hold the lid in place. I know one large beekeeper who made some excellant lids from 1" plywood, don't know where he found it, but it might be worth investigating as well.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I suspect that Ollie's sliding top cover design may be based on posts by _Dan Williamson _in these two threads:

Post #6: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?211438-Inner-covers-are-they-really-needed

Post #14: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...purpose-of-an-inner-cover&highlight=westerman


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Leave it to Graham. Dan's post in the first link (complete with his own photo links) shows what he is doing pretty clearly. His lids aren't recessed and it appears it may be more of a vent than an upper entrance but it's a pretty simple concept to work from.


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## bbbthingmaker (Sep 26, 2010)

How about light-weight concrete? There is a backer board for ceramic tile installation made of cement and styrofoam beads. It is a lot lighter than regular backer board. Some of you smart guys need to figure out a formula for light weight and weather proof cement hive covers. Has anybody tried this?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Taking a different tack. I have found that Foamular http://www.homedepot.com/s/foamular+250?NCNI-5 to be useful for my nuc operation. A hole in a broodbox, a FBIC, and a rock does the trick. The rock is vital. 
I don't think this is very suitable for a commercial guy, but for a sideliner it would work quite well. 

Another design I remember seeing here on Beesource a few years ago was a top/bottom combo board. The beekeeper had just one board serving both functions, but I don't think he was palletized.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Another design I remember seeing here on Beesource a few years ago was a top/bottom combo board. The beekeeper had just one board serving both functions, but I don't think he was palletized.


..which brings me back to one of my all time favorite old lid designs. Many variations on this were used years ago. Ours consisted of two sets of thin wooden shingles facing in opposite directions with felt paper in between and rimmed top and bottom with a plaster lath that is fully enclosed on one side and on the other an end is left half open. It can be used as either a non porched bottom or as a lid with the option of a top entrance depending on which way it is flipped. Assembly was simply to run overlength nails through the outside lath's and then clinch the nails sinking them deep enough into the wood so as not to interfere with the seal. I suppose the cost of wood shingles may make them impractical, though and certainly not ideal from a migratory aspect.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

bbbthingmaker said:


> How about light-weight concrete? ... Has anybody tried this?


When I was in college, we built concrete canoes using a light weight mix. I still have a sample of it, it floats. Nice stuff, but it needs to be finished, it's not really strong and it's hard to mix, has to be mixed by hand.




Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Taking a different tack. I have found that Foamular http://www.homedepot.com/s/foamular+250?NCNI-5 to be useful for my nuc operation.


I'm really interested in how durable this is. How does it stand up in sunlight? Do the bees chew it? If it was durable, I think it would make an excellent lid.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I looked up the Foamular technical bulletin. It says that the foam fades after a couple weeks and begins to lose thickness after two or three months. Can it be painted to compensate?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Sol, bees will chew on it, but I use a feedbag inner cover (FBIC) underneath which eliminates that problem. I am into my third year with unpainted foamular and it has faded, but it doesn't seem to make any functional difference to it. I have had 2 or 3 lids that small ants have taken up residence in via holes, but overall I am very satisfied with it and have no plans to use anything else. As you are moving to a cold area I think there are some big advantages to a lid that has built in insulation. 
http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/A...0218510053D4_zps4b43bdd5.jpg.html?sort=6&o=20

Oh, I nearly forgot. I don't know if it can be painted - I have never tried to. I use a handsaw to cut it, although folks tell me it will break along a scored line.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

According to the website, it can be painted with oil or latex paint. I think that would help with chewing and ants too. That sounds like an excellent lid, costs about as much as good plywood, but would last along time with UV protection, and cuttable. Would be easy to cut a little slot for an upper entrance and insulation would be great too.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I've pondered on cutting an upper entrance into it, but I worry about the bees using that as an access point to chew on the foam. However, I should stop wussing and just try one. It is cheap enough to mess around with, perhaps the FBIC could be folded up.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If it were painted all around, I would think it wouldn't matter if there were a slot cut in it. My concern would be paint peeling after a while, experiments are required.


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