# Is CCD a myth?



## casinoken

I pose this question based on information another beek pointed out to me. If u look at the USDA numbers for hives in the U.S., there has never been a significant drop in numbers of hives posted. Every year for the past 10 to 15 years the numbers alter in the 200,000 range from year to year. It has been that way since before CCD began being reported. Is the USDA just making guesses at numbers of Hives? I ask this because I know that the numbers reported for Mississippi are totally erroneous. The USDA reports regularly that Mississippi has 18,000 hives. How do they come up with that number? I know one beek in Mississippi that has over 18,000 hives. In Mississippi u are not required to register your hives, so are they just guessing? The Mississippi Dept. of Ag. regularly posts that during the season Mississippi has around 31,000 hives and during the winter it swells to around 160,000 hives. Has anyone here ever experienced CCD? Just wondering why u heard of 50 to 90% losses of hives, yet no numbers to support those claims. Just thought this might be something interesting to discuss.


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## waynesgarden

It sounds to me like you are saying accurate reporting of colonies is a myth. The USDA is reporting, for example, 30% losses for 2010/2011, not limited to CCD cases. When you hear of 90% losses, that obviously is not a national average and I don't know of anyone who says it is. In any statistical survey, there always will be high and low figures reported by individuals. That's part of how averages are determined.

I've never lost a hive to CCD that I am aware of, but it would be the height of silliness to offer that as proof of a "CCD myth." It will take a lot more than some fuzzy idea of statistics to make some beekeepers I know question the CCD losses they've sustained.

It's out there.

Wayne


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## robherc

Last year my mentor had 56% losses overwintering his hives...he blamed CCD
That said, I didn't know enough then, and probably don't now, to have ruled out other potential causes, but CCD and SIDS have a ton in common...I.E. when a hive or baby dies, and nobody can immediately tell why, it must've been CCD/SIDS. They're not really disorders, or syndromes, as they're named...so much as a statistical category to throw everything unknown into; in my honest, educated, far more than just an "opinion."


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## WillT

casinoken said:


> Just wondering why u heard of 50 to 90% losses of hives, yet no numbers to support those claims.


This may help
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004071


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## Keith Jarrett

" is ccd a myth"

Nope... just the person staring back at them in the mirror.


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## robherc

Another thought that I should've posted earlier...as you said, the MS D of A reported hive numbers being much higher as winter approaches, most likely form beeks making splits/nucs. The reason why the numbers aren't continuing to spiral upwards is that many of these splits/nucs either die themselves, or are used to replace other colonies that died, over the winter...thus accounting for the "steady" numbers you are seeing. Understanding that, it seems that, if anything, the steady numbers do more to prove CCD, rather than disprove it.


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## NirvanaFan

What about feral hives? Those numbers are only hives that beekeepers have, right?


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## casinoken

The high winter numbers are from beeks that ship hives all over the country for pollination services bringing them back. Mississippi is one of the top producers of queens and packages due to our mild winters. Wayne, u stsed that the USDA reported 30% losses for 2010/2011, however if u look at the number of hives from the previous year their reporting number is nowhere near 30%. As a running average, the USDA reports that there are approximately 2.4 million hives nationwide. If u look at the annual reort numbers for th past 15 years they range between roughly 2.1 and 2.6 million hives, with variations annually, up or down, usually averaging around 200,000 hives. To have a 30% loss of hives, u should see that years number drop by roughly 700,000 hives, and I haven't seen that big of a drop in any year from the USDA.


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## casinoken

Don't get me wrong, I believe CCD exists, however if someone who had never heard of it were given the annual report numbers from USDA and asked if they saw in the numbers where and if a major disaster hit the beekeeping industry, they would have to say no, because the numbers never bear out any major changes as they would if there were a 30% loss in one year. As I stated when I started this thread, I believe the USDA simply puts out bogus numbers in their reports. Another efficient government agency.


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## jim lyon

I think the federal government makes a good attempt at their reports. I know in my case they are relentless until you give them what they want. Are they accurate? More a case of garbage in garbage out as I see it, many beekeepers refuse to fill them out and quite often some fly under the radar and the government is never aware of them. If you have never dealt with a county FSA office they may not know about you. I think they are probably useful in showing trends more than highly accurate numbers.


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## RogerCrum

If you had 100 colonies in 2010, experienced 30% winter losses andpurchased 30 packages you would again report that you had 100 colonies in 2011. That is why the number of reported colonies remains relatively constant. 

Since the population increases every year, we cannot conclude that the reports of human death is obviously a myth.


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## casinoken

LOL, good point Roger


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## gonzo

lol, Roger.... this is one reason why i hated my statistics class!!!


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## Roland

Has anyone here ever experienced CCD?

Yes, 623 went to 75 and then 10, then 0. (keeping track of the original hives). Yes it is real, and it kills bees dead. Roger Crum has the right idea. We have since replaced most of the bees, so the numbers have not changed much. Why do you think package prices have skyrocketed in the last 6 years? Increased demand to replace lost hives.

Crazy Roland


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## Adam Foster Collins

Has anyone here ever experienced CCD?

I started a thread asking that question a while back on this forum. Personally, I don't doubt that CCD is very real, and that some operations have been decimated by it. 

What I do feel, though, is that many bee deaths are attributed to CCD by people who really haven't experienced CCD. I think a lot of deaths are caused by other things (mites, viruses, cold, etc) and if the reasons for their deaths aren't understood or recognized, then CCD is sometimes blamed.

From what I have learned, CCD is a shocking decline, and is not like anything else. It's not a myth, but it isn't very common. Most beekeepers have never seen it.

Adam


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## dannyidp

ccd= poison and gmo seeds that has poison in there genes! nuf said...


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## jim lyon

Adam Foster Collins said:


> From what I have learned, CCD is a shocking decline, and is not like anything else. It's not a myth, but it isn't very common. Most beekeepers have never seen it.
> 
> Adam


Actually I believe it shares enough similarities with varroa collapse that one is often mistaken for the other.


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## gonzo

i saw a recent article suggesting ccd may be due to the feeding of sugar water/syrup... when i first started on my beeking adventures, i was told by a very reliable source to add a few drops of lemon juice to it in order to bring the PH level to a more natural level. I haven't heard his instructions anywhere else regarding sugar water.... any thoughts on this (not to derail the thread...)


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## RAFAEL/PR

casinoken said:


> I pose this question based on information another beek pointed out to me. If u look at the USDA numbers for hives in the U.S., there has never been a significant drop in numbers of hives posted. Every year for the past 10 to 15 years the numbers alter in the 200,000 range from year to year. It has been that way since before CCD began being reported. Is the USDA just making guesses at numbers of Hives? I ask this because I know that the numbers reported for Mississippi are totally erroneous. The USDA reports regularly that Mississippi has 18,000 hives. How do they come up with that number? I know one beek in Mississippi that has over 18,000 hives. In Mississippi u are not required to register your hives, so are they just guessing? The Mississippi Dept. of Ag. regularly posts that during the season Mississippi has around 31,000 hives and during the winter it swells to around 160,000 hives. Has anyone here ever experienced CCD? Just wondering why u heard of 50 to 90% losses of hives, yet no numbers to support those claims. Just thought this might be something interesting to discuss.


it real guy , or Poland wouldn't ban this company http://www.naturalnews.com/036010_Poland_Monsanto_GM_corn.html


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## casinoken

Gonzo, I make my sugar syrup with 2 quarts water, 5 lbs sugar, 8 teabags of caffiene free chamomile tea, and two fresh squeezed lemons. The lemons help to lower the ph and convert the sugar to more of what the bees are used to gathering. I checked the ph and it is very close to the ph of honey.


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## gonzo

@casinoken - than you are the second person to say such.... everytime i looked up sugar water online, there was never any mention of lemon...


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## robherc

gonzo, I saw in a book where the breeder was describing making "invert sugar" by adding a few grams of tartaric acid (aka cream of tartar) to the syrup...in this case, it was being used for making queen candy, but I think it gets about the same point across...lowers the Ph so more of the sucrose sugars are broken down into non-crystallizing glucose & fructose. Once the sucrose has been broken down enough, the glucose+fructose syrup is nearly impossible to get to crystallize under normal circumstances (yes, I'm aware that it's possible, AND that "crystallized fructose" is sold in health food stores....but it's not likely to happen unintentionally). This helps with making queen candy for obvious reasons, and should help avoid bees from getting syrup-killed by having the syrup hyper-saturate & re-crystallize sugar granules on the bee.


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## sqkcrk

Not a myth, but a mystery.


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## bwdenen

Sounds like you are inverting the sugar...sort of anyway. I usually invert some of the syrup I make each year, expecially if I think I may not use it all right away. It may or may not be all that benificial for the bees but it make me feel better:shhhh:

http://wvbeekeeper.blogspot.com/2008/01/making-invert-sugar-syrup.html


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## Roland

"Most beekeepers have never seen it."

True, and when you do, you will not be able to comprehend that there is anything so lethal and virulent.

Yes, many other situations cause symptoms that are similar to, but not ALL of the CCD symptoms. Mite load, mild neonicinoid exposure, a lack of summer flow, etc; but they are nothing compared to the real thing.

(Sorry SQKCRK, no mystery here).

Crazy Roland


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## waynesgarden

dannyidp said:


> ccd= poison and gmo seeds that has poison in there genes! nuf said...


"nuf said," if that were the definitive answer. Please, send all the ****ing evidence that you seem to possess to the USDA and they can set guidelines, ban the bad stuff and all our problems will be solved. I wish it were that simple. I think the've about finished dismissing those that cried "It's cell phones. nuf said."

If they simply accept your simplistic "GMO, nuf said" opinion without thoroughly investgating the many posssiblities, including stresses caused by the combinations of various factors such as pesticides, mites and viruses, we're all doomed.

'Nuf said, as far as I'm concerned.

Wayne


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## RobWok

I add a TBS of apple cider vinegar per gallon. More than anything to keep it from crystalizing. I keep the batches in the fridge until I need em. I try not to feed too much anyway, so that's why I'm more concerned about the crystalization. 

Back on the thread, I think that neonicontinoid pesticides make the absolute best sense for a cause of CCD. Just look at the cause and effect, even the smoking gun. I think there is serious concern with thinking it's a disease. There will be a "treatment" for the "disease" soon enough, and if the company that makes the treatment has any lobbying power, they're going to try to make it mandatory. Most healthy hives can handle foulbrood - especially if you recycle your old brood comb. I've never had it, but I've read the stories and the research on it. However, we have lot of folks scared not to load up their bees proactively with terramyacin.

I have mixed feelings about the hype. On one hand, I have people pay me to do cutouts and trapouts and don't want me to harm a single bee. It's great because we get fewer people spraying pesticides to try to do it themselves. However, do you know of any other species out there that has 2 Million (and that's just colonies) in a country that considered endangered? What I tell people is, the honey bee is not a native of the US. There are over 2 million commercial colonies. However, you are doing a good thing. What is in danger is a feral bee that can handle the diseases and pests that have been brought into the U.S. By having me take care of your bees, you are sustaining genetic material that allows us to have a bee that doesn't need to be medicated just to survive.

Rob.


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## sqkcrk

Roland said:


> (Sorry SQKCRK, no mystery here).
> 
> Crazy Roland


A Thriller than? Sure ain't no Western or Romance Novel.


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## waynesgarden

RobWok said:


> Back on the thread, I think that neonicontinoid pesticides make the absolute best sense for a cause of CCD. Just look at the cause and effect, even the smoking gun. I think there is serious concern with thinking it's a disease.


Again please, PLEASE!!! RobWok, send evidence of your "smoking gun" to the USDA and they can all go home and we beekeepers can live in peace tonight knowing it is a direct result of poisoning and not a disease.

We all want to be able to point to Bayer as the culprit and have them banned and our bees thrive for ever more. But no one, with all their wishful and definitively stated opinions, has yet seemed able to prove it. Who is up to the task? Please, someone? Anyone? Proof? Actual scientific proof and not merely wishful thinking? Anyone?

Wayne


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## BayHighlandBees

RobWok said:


> I think that neonicontinoid pesticides make the absolute best sense for a cause of CCD. Just look at the cause and effect, even the smoking gun


what was the smoking gun?


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## BayHighlandBees

dupe post


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## AstroBee

I do not doubt that CCD is real, but I see no smoking gun. The whole neonicotinoids thing just does not resonate with me. I have lots of bees sitting on the edge of cotton/soybeans/corn, and not for just a year or two, for many years (10+ years). I know for a fact that treated seeds are used and the neonicotinoids are being applied to the fields. My bees are very healthy and I have not witnessed anything that remotely resembles CCD.


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## gmcharlie

CCD Is used as a common excuse for poor beekeeping, It does exist, and it does happen on huge scales, BUT a majority of beekeepers who lose hives, then blame CCD, when it was actually something much simpler like pesticede, mites, or bad feed. 
One of the biggest guys in the industry made that statement to me last week, and upon reflection he right on. Poor beekeeping is responsible for a lot of the claimed CCD cases. That said there are definatly times its a mistery and something beyound our knowledge has reared its head.


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## lazy shooter

I have been a bee keeper, maybe a keeper of bees is more accurate, for 14 months. I have been reading about bees a bit longer, maybe 18 months. As a new beek, my fact finding about CCD is approximately equal to my long term knowledge of Sasquatch. I now understand there are people hunting Sasquatch with ultraviolet lights, heat seeking devices and long range hearing equipment. The application of these technologies may advance the search for Sasquatch somewhere ahead of the CCD conjectures that I have seen in print to date.


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## casinoken

Wayne, if u want a smoking gun about neonicotinoids, just look at what Bayer did in California this year. Instead of going through a re-evaluation of their most profitable neonicotinoid, they pulled it from the market and asked almond growers not to spray it. An admission of a problem from Bayer itself? Don't know, but in these tough economic times, I doubt a company would pull its most profitable product from the market if it didn't know there was a potential problem. Just sayin'.


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## RobWok

One of the purported benefits of neonicotinoids is a sensory loss of direction for social insects. France, Slovenia, and other areas saw causal connections between the introduction of the pesticide and CCD symptoms. Additionally, though it is supposed to break down in sunlight, how many of us build hive bodies made out of glass?


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## BayHighlandBees

sounds more like a political problem than a problem with the product. If Bayer thought that there was a real problem with the pesticide then they wouldn't they pull it everywhere (and not just California almond growers)?

It worth mentioning the bees are thriving in the highest neonics use areas like North Dakota. There's also the flaw here that CCD doesn't mirror the map of agricultural neonics coverage (which it should if it is responsible of CCD).


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## crash2usaf

CCD isn't a myth as much as a catch all to explain a new phenomenon that is happening. There are definite markers for CCD and a multitude of problems found in correlation- it is a scenario of which came first- the chicken or the egg. When these losses came we imported a bunch of bees and with them a whole host of pathogens our bees weren't used to. According to most reports this nosema c. is a real booger. The virus isn't contained in just the midgut which is why fumegelin isn't effective, the virus needs the sugars to survive itself, hence no brood rearing, comb building etc... and it turns the nurse bees into foragers much faster. So if the virus is using the sugars in the nectar then the bee that need this amount to get from point A to point B will run short because the virus is eating it. They are weak and can't fly, can't fight off mights. There is no tell tale blk smelly poop. I was told to use a teaspoon of chlorine or lemonjuice in the sugar water til they overcome it.


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