# Queens from drone eggs



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Making queens from drones is easy....it is a graft less system like the Jenter system, but involves simply putting a dot with this year's queen color on an athletic looking drone. It is, of course, the Jenner method. Sorry...couldn't help it


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I just snorted my drink out my nose!


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

Chuckling in the kitchen...muahahaha! I think one also has to glue a crown on them.
I'd seriously be interested however in how this would actually work. Seems Im always being surprised and fascinated by the adaptability of these critters.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Thanks much Fusion_Power,
I've known that AI was done in the past, before all the AI equipment and training started, but could never wrap my head around how it was done, and never saw any particulars about it. You, however, have let the old secret out of the bag, thanks so much. That would be a very easy poor man's way of doing AI. Very interesting, I may give it a try one day.

So, no I've never done it, at least not yet, but have you done it before yourself?


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Sort of like invitro fertilization for bees. I would expect the chemistry that leads to cell division would interfere with this (but I don't really know) so a really new egg would be the best bet for success.
Bill


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

This has been discussed before. Here is a link to one discussion, which contains links to others.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ng-a-drone-egg&highlight=Drone+eggs+fertilize


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes, whiskers, it may be that it won't work at all, but sounds like an interesting thing to try.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

This will not work.
The bees will smell the larvae scent signature and
uncap them all later on. Why would a hive want to 
keep some weird looking *** queens?


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Ray-
I agree, in fact, too interesting not to try
Bill


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes I agree Bill,
I'm just now reading through the thread link posted above, and another link posted within it. I think it is something worth trying, if nothing else, just to satisfy curiosity. I know, curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.

Maybe cut out a row of freshly laid drone eggs sticking straight up from the cell, and pinch a drone to ejaculate, use a small toothpic to transfer some of the sperm to the egg, glue that row of cells to a cell bar to put upside down over the queenless hive of nurse bees, like a hopkins method, and see what happens. I'm going back to further reading, Michael Palmer stated that in UK they state that the open end of the egg where sperm is normally input into it is the end of the egg that is stuck to the cell bottom. I think I'm in for lots of reading tonight!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I am imagining from reading one of the other threads linked, that both Me and Fusion_Power replied to, that FP is asking if anyone that has read that thread from two years ago has actually tried this yet, and if so, what were the results? It's either that, or he, like me, have forgotten about that thread and he is posting this from lack of remembering the other? teehehehe


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I have a very good memory Ray.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes, I know you do Darrel.
I myself had forgotten about those threads, but even so, I would not have tried the experiment as I was not really set for doing so. Now however, I may be able to play around with it some this next season. How about you? Are you thinking of trying this as well? 

I'm assuming no one has tried because I don't recall seeing anyone posting about the effort. It is so much easier to just order a good queen and make daughters from her to locally mate in my area, but I may play with this idea some this year, as I do plan on getting an ongoing queen rearing system going again as the weather warms in spring.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

ABJ April 1920 pg 147
"ARTIFICIAL EGG FERTILIZATION Mr. E.M. Cole of Audubon Iowa recently called my attention to the fact that the artificial impregnation of so called drone eggs as set forth by Gilbert Barratt in the American Bee Journal December 1919 page 415 is not a new idea but that Langstroth reported such a case. The statements referred to appear on the first page of the appendix in the 1914 reprint of the original and on page 41 of Langstroth's third edition. The latter reference reads Dr. Donhoff of Germany in the summer of 1855 reared a worker larva from a drone egg which he had artificially impregnated. Langstroth himself had attempted the same thing in 1852 without success but still held to the opinion that it could be accomplished under favorable circumstances. Apparently this paragraph has been omitted from the recent revisions of Langstroth but now that the subject is receiving considerable attention would it not be desirable to incorporate it in the next revision.--Wallace Park 
The reason why the experiment in question was left out of the Langstroth Dadant revision was that Mr Langstroth had failed and that we feared Donhoff had been mistaken. But the incident was entirely forgotten by me and I thank you for recalling it. It is now too late to incorporate it in the new revision which is just out. But later we may be able to add not only this but also additional facts I do not believe that the eggs which a queen drops involuntarily have ever been cared for by experimenters to ascertain whether they are fertilized or not. If it has been done has the result been invariably the same and what was the sex? These questions have a scientific and perhaps practical importance.--Editor "


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

"....and what was the sex?"

I don't think a gay-drone queen with ugly hairy legs and a big queen abdomen
will be tolerated much by the bees even though it was mated. I thought there was
a genetic mutation seeing such a rare big queen almost twice the height and
weight of a regular queen. Turn out that the bees superseded her
later on. Should of snap a pic that time. Later on the hive crashed. Yep, one never
know what will pop up in raising those early season queens.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

These Beepro messages... Oh boy, are you seriously taking part or just fooling, I never know, sorry. 



beepro said:


> "....and what was the sex?"
> 
> I don't think a gay-drone queen with ugly hairy legs and a big queen abdomen
> will be tolerated much by the bees even though it was mated. I thought there was
> ...


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

You are not alone, Juhani, you are not alone.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

one would think that it would have to be done almost immediately once laid by the queen. Admittedly I don't know much about cell division prior to the egg hatching into a larva, but one would think it would start quick and therefore already be on it's way to being a drone.


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

I was just wondering about the potential of rearing queens, say from VSHII stock. At this point in time they are somewhat expensive and the "Drone Egg" method could possibly lower the $ tag significantly.

On the other hand, I have to think that this might not be the most desirable course to take. I remember from my younger days the problems some of the ranchers in this area had with line and inbreeding cattle. The biggest problem was "dwarfism" and "Muleys." The line breeding was safe enough as long as you used "clean sires." (not inbred) The inbreeding was the most dangerous. These breeding practices quickly produced a very similar body type but the problems nearly destroyed several of the purebred breeders.

I hope our efforts to streamline genetics does not overshadow genetic diversity. My brain has done enough thinking for one day. Please forgive me if I am coming across as being a tiny bit senile. No body is perfect! Best wishes, LP


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Larry, rest assured, we will all reach perfection eventually (meaning a whole lot senile) 

deknow


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Theoretically there is no reason that this procedure should not work, but would require lab like conditions. First the drone eggs would need to be recently laid, within what time frame, I have heard up to 4 hours at the time of fertilization. I would think much sooner than that say within 30 minutes. Then the fertilization, fresh drone semen would need to be available. The actual fertilization requires a pipette with a drop of semen on the end and this drop is just touched to the new drone egg and then moved on to the next and so on and on. those eggs have to be replaced into a hive and after 4 days larvae grafted into queen cups and then put into some sort of queen rearing colony. So I feel that it could be done but would take an awful amount of work and organization when for $200 odd you can buy an I/I queen and go from there.
Johno


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

If I was going to try this, I'd confine the queen to a small area and insert fresh drawn comb from a frame like this with drone sized cells on at least one side of the foundationless area.
Check several times throughout the day until I got the hang of when to expect a lay up. If there was no where else to lay but a small section of foundationless drone cells, it would be reliably quick. 
Better yet, Just confine the queen with a large sized push in cage on drone cells. You could even place that frame in a small observation unit and keep your eye on the queens progress as you work on your computer. A _soon_ as she had laid up enough cells, pluck her off and hold temporarily in a transport or roller cage and process the eggs immediately. 

I'd collect drone semen and _possibly _dilute with enough saline so it could be simply sprayed light into the cells. ( I've not done II so not sure if this would dilution would be viable or not.) The spray method , if it would work, would make the process quick and not so time consuming it would be worth the effort. If not, introduction of semen into each cell would be necessary, but still wouldn't be a huge deal.
Reinsert the frame and established queen to nurse bees until they hatch out, then graft or cut cells out as usual. 

IF they didn't clean out the cells upon reinsertion, larva were successfully grafted and drawn out, capped and made it to the point of near emergence without being torn down, you Might have something accomplished.

I'd be letting them emerge in an incubator so I could observe the entire process. At least for the first few batches until I have confidence in the viability and quality of the little monsters.










Box for queen confinement (This is a divided double breeder queen unit)











After some trial and error, I bet you could streamline the process to be quick and efficient...*IF* it is possible, that is


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

The following study shows that this is doable, fertilization within 30 seconds of an egg being activated (laid) produced female eggs while over 30 minutes produced drone eggs

Egg activation and timing of sperm acceptance by an egg in honeybees

https://www.researchgate.net/public...tance_by_an_egg_in_honeybees_Apis_mellifera_L


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'd use an observation hive. You could note the cells she lays in over 1 min or 5 min, have the en ready, and just slide up/prop the glass to do the insemination. Assuming one was persistent enough to work out the bugs (pun intended), this seems rather doable.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

deknow said:


> Making queens from drones is easy....it is a graft less system like the Jenter system, but involves simply putting a dot with this year's queen color on an athletic looking drone. It is, of course, the Jenner method. Sorry...couldn't help it


But then she'd have to win the Olympic decathlon and be on the cover of Wheaties.

The more I get into it, the easier it seems to rent an island and place one drone colony with your mating nuc's.

Then last week, I was given a CO2 bottle and a microscope....:scratch:....so now I've GOT to try regular I.I., and will probably give this drone egg trick a try. There is the possibility that a method could be developed that produces superior performing "I.I." queens.

I'd probably set up a very strong "Bee bomb" finisher colony not unlike Michael Palmer's setup, and place a frame of <15 "drag queens" (sorry - I mean fertilized-then-punched drone egg queen cells). This is just a SWAG (=Scientific Wild-A$$ed Guess) - no way to tell what method will prove successful at this point, but make no mistake - it will eventually be dubbed the Jenner Method.

Still editing - KC


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...charlie, I don't understand your comment.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Another couple possible variations...

1. The one time I caged a virgin for 6 weeks (to see what would happen), she predictibly became a drone layer...very handy for this technique.

2. Similarly, I think that if queen gets below a certain temp, she becomes a drone layer (presumably sperm doesn't survive).


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

deknow said:


> Another couple possible variations...
> 
> 2. Similarly, I think that if queen gets below a certain temp, she becomes a drone layer (presumably sperm doesn't survive).


Yes this does work, but there is a very fine line between killing the queen and killing the semen in the the spermatheca.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

....something between a polar bear club new years eve dip, and a 'restore your virginity' ceremony.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

My apologies that it took so long to complete - I'm attempting to connect through McDonald's wifi. It finally rained in Ojai today, and everyone is coming home from work, driving through McDonald's and swiping their credit cards. Their router keeps kicking me off the internet every time someone swipes a card, and I have to re-type the previous attempt at my post. 22 tries later, I have succeeded at typing 1 post. You can imagine the unpublished emoticons ("Smileys") I'm thinking of right now.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I cam imagine the last two attempts (which I'm sure we're longer)....
"...in 20 tries I have"
And....
"...in 21 tries I have suc"


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

Kilocharlie,

I have no intention to do II. The problem is after reading your posts, I caught myself calculating micrometer threads (40 per inch) and looking up fly tying bases with optics and all the other technical stuff to build an II setup. I told my wife it was your fault. It seems like we need someone to blame and we must always be right, right?

This thread is great!! I wish you well, LP


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks, Larry. Compliment accepted. See you at the island. That's one island per bloodline, right? 

BTW, my cheapie I.I. stage is only 50 bucks. Forewarning - it is not easy to repeat the setup. It is not going to give Dr. Schley's instrument any serious competition. I've only gotten a few practice queens through it without the 15x magnification. My buddy has incredible eyesight, mine won't cut it. If I come up with an improvement like Otto or Harry made, I'll go the the machine shop and knock out a production run, but the cost will go up. Right now it's off-the-shelf parts with a small mod.

Now that I have a CO2 bottle and a scope, it should get more interesting. If I get accepted at university, I should be able to get some access to queens & drones *worth* inseminating. Meanwhile, it is a training device for use on dud queens.

Still, this drone egg idea could lead to something good.

Dean - That was the easy part. Shutting the laptop down and re-booting every 5th try was fun, too. :waiting:


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

What is your II setup, Kilocharlie?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Well, to hello with the big secret - I'm not going to be patenting it. There's no market here. I bought two different kinds of magnifier stands from Harbor Freight (one kit is a bit larger than the other), also a package if dental picks from them. 

These are the stands with the 2 alligator clip "hands" for soldering. I use a combination of the two sets of rods, screw stops, and parts that come with each different kit. I don't use the clips nor the magnifiers (at least not in the I.I. system - I made a jumper wire with the alligator clips, and attached flashlights & handles to the magnifiers for other uses). The two fixtures that held the clips on the end of the main rod need to be drilled to accept the hooks so that the locking thumb screws hold them tight in place. 

I used a clear plastic cap of a large ink pen to hold the queen, drilled it, and ran an aquarium air hose to it for the CO2 system. I use a small screw valve (finer control than a ball valve) to the CO2 bottle valve. I made a quick disconnect for placing / removing the queens. All the other parts I bought and tried were less than $50.00, and I didn't use all the parts - I think there are some brass hose fittings in the system as well.

That's the queen stage. The system still needs a CO2 bottle & regulator, a small air compressor or inflated tire, an air / CO2 mixing chamber, a syringe, an LED light, a microscope, and a small refrigerator. Of course you'll need queen and drone cages too. I'd recommend the numbering disc system over painted dots on I.I. queens if you are going to run multiple blood lines.

I confess, my system is a genuine ******* design, but I am getting some practice in. I need to go take Dr. Cobey's class before I start practicing mistakes. Dr. Elina Nino will be of big help, too. She has made new refinements of Laidlaw's, Mackinson's, and other's work.

Next time I'm down there at Harbor Freight with my 20% discount coupon, I'll get the SKU numbers of the parts and post it here. If I can get a hold of a friend with a camera, I'll try to post a photo. I made 3 systems a couple years ago and have sold only 1. I made a quick instruction manual, but it should be better. Later this year, after I move (hopefully up to U.C.Davis), I'll get the whole system photographed and the instructions all posted in a thread.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Thanks for the write-up, I don't really intend to do anything, I was just curious as to what you were doing. Other than in my head it sounding relatively neat to try... I don't have a reason to do so. A picture would be neat to see, it sounds like you've done a good job rigging something up.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I might get my ******* card for this one....


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

kilocharlie said:


> I might get my ******* card for this one....



I duct taped diapers on my twins when they were little..........I can loan you mine! LOL


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