# Pollen feeding and SHB



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Don't know the answers to your questions, as I've never fed anything outside the hives. But if SHBs aren't being too much of a problem, I feed tiny patties more often. That way the bees clean it up in a few days and the SHB don't have as much chance to abuse the patties. What I do if the SHBs are getting more of my sub patties than my bees are, is to switch to liquid feeding. Mega Bee works great for this and their instructions even include feeding it as a liquid. 

HTH

Rusty


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

Thanks for the post. I'm just kind of worried about feeding the SHB more than the bee's and don't want to encourage that at all. With liquid feeding, are you referring to something like HBH - as I regularly feed with that, as needed. I guess I could try putting some small patties (what do you suggest, 3 x 3) in the hives to test?


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## beegeorge (Apr 19, 2012)

in the south with SHB,, use smaller patties,, to allow them to be eaten before SHB lays eggs in them. but regardless,, you need to check to see if they are being eaten or a breeding place for SHB


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

seapro220 said:


> With liquid feeding, are you referring to something like HBH - as I regularly feed with that, as needed. I guess I could try putting some small patties (what do you suggest, 3 x 3) in the hives to test?


Mega Bee is a protein supplement that can be mixed as a patty or as a liquid feed. I get mine from Dadant. As to patty size, I make hamburger-sized patties and break them into quarters. I feed a quarter at a time. If the SHBs overrun them, I switch to the liquid.

HTH

Rusty


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Roll out your patties thin and put them between 2 sheets of wax paper. In this way, only the edges are exposed to both the SHB and bees. The SHB will lay their eggs on the edge, however, the bees will consume the patty before the eggs hatch and deal with the eggs. You will need to take out the patties when the bees stop taking them so that they don't turn into SHB breeding ground.

I was collecting pollen last summer and I had to remove it every 3 days or so for the above reason. I would assume the same will be true if you're bulk feeding pollen.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

You should be OK feeding dry supplement outside the hive, the bees will treat it just like pollen. Won't pick it up at low temps, but equally SHB won't be laying eggs in it either outside the hive. When the bees do pick it up they will pack it away in the comb just like pollen, and the beetles won't be able to get at it so easily.

If I were doing this, I'd start when the maples bloom, as it's unlikely the bees will be very active before. You could also feed in liquid syrup as soon as it's warm enough for the bees to take syrup.

Peter


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

Thanks all - 
I looked at the Megabee website and their mixing instructions for a candy-board, or sheet. It appears that the receipe they have described will, if I understand their information correctly - create a 'sheet' with the dimensions of 20 1/4 x 16 1/4 x 2" thick. If this is correct, and i want to make it 'thinner' i suppose I could pour the mixture into several smaller wax-paper lined pans. This makes sense. The other thing I was wondering is if I could just lay out some wax paper on the counter, pour the mixture onto it - and overlay some more wax paper to press or roll it out to a thinner mixture. Is this how some of you guys are making the mixture thinner?

Good to know on the external feeding also, and I'll probably try this process as well as it sounds like with the mixture being in a powder form, and external - that the SHB won't try to lay eggs in it.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

seapro220 said:


> Thanks all -
> The other thing I was wondering is if I could just lay out some wax paper on the counter, pour the mixture onto it - and overlay some more wax paper to press or roll it out to a thinner mixture. Is this how some of you guys are making the mixture thinner?


This is what I am doing with mine - not MegaBee, though.


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## Earl of Chatham (Jan 28, 2013)

As Merince pointed out, if you use a patty that has wax or parchment paper on the top and bottom, the bees will eat from the edge and it keeps the SHB out of the middle. I use this by maximizing the amount of edge by cutting the patties into strips that are the width of the top bars. The bees will eat from all the edges and consume the patties much more quickly. I can put on exactly the amount I need and place them where I want them. This leaves the gaps between the frames so the bees can move around normally. The strips can be cut in half if needed. That way you can put a half strip on the middle of several frames if you want.

As far as rolling out the patties if you are making your own. Use a baking sheet that has a lip all around,(not a cookie sheet). Put a layer of paper down and put some patty mixture on. Add a top paper and then roll to thickness using a rolling pin. You can make a rolling pin to fit your baking sheet by buying a 1.5 to 2 inch dowel and cutting it to length. By experimenting with the amount of mixture you can control the thickness. If you pour the mixture down the middle it will help keep it even.


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

Thanks to all for their input.
I'm going to order some MegaBee tomorrow and make up some patties. It was curious that Dadant didn't stock any pollen. I know that MegaBee has pollen in it - so if I use it, in conjunction with some pollen substitute - can i skip ordering some 'plain' pollen? This should work shouldn't it? I guess the other choice, as mentioned over on Mann Lake's site would be to use the "Bee Pro" product. It suggests that it can be used either as dry, wet, or made into patties. I suppose that both of these product are pretty much the same, and I'm just trying to maximize my investment - since I want to use it in multiple methods.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If/when I feed any pollen, I feed it dry in an empty hive on top of a window screen on top of a screened bottom board. This keeps the pollen dry. We do have some SHB around, but they are never a problem. They have never gotten in the open pollen if it stays dry.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

From my experience, patties are designed to replace pollen, so you don't need to be adding any. Randy Oliver is working on a study comparing the various patties out there and supposedly 2 of the formulations actually outperform pollen so far.

Most of the patties will do a decent job for couple of rounds of brood without pollen. By that time, natural pollen is usually available.


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## s1sweetser (Aug 9, 2013)

It has been my experience that SHB will get to the patties even if they are sandwiched between wax paper. They will also lay eggs in the patty and before long it will be writhing with SHB larvae. I feed pollen in a small tray inside of a 3 frame nuc to keep it dry. If I have a hive open that seems to be low on pollen, I will sprinkle a little dry pollen on the tops of the frames. Like others in this thread, I have also found that SHB don't go for the dry pollen.


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

Ok.
It's beginning to sound like feeding pollen or pollen mixed with pollen substitute might be the best bet for me to try, unless I'm going to feed the megabee in a 'wet' formula. This might be best, at least for me now since I had a real infestation of SHB in most of my hives last year. I've seen the pollen substitute mixtures around this forum which calls for Soy flour, brewers yeast, powered milk, and a vitamin C pill. To this, I guess you can mix some 'real' pollen as a added treat. I'm not sure how much to mix, but maybe I'll find something here about how much to add. If I do this, then I can feed externally, and keep the mixture dry. Of course this means that the weather will have to cooperate, and the bees find it all while giving me some ability to feed early and give the bees an extra jump on spring. I can probably find soy flour pretty easily, along with the powered milk - but where should I be able to find brewers yeast - at a grocery store, or health food store? Are there different kinds of brewers yeast ?


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## chadritchie (Jan 20, 2014)

When is the ideal time to begin feeding a dry pollen substitute, such as Mega Bee or Ener-G outside the hive? 
It's January and the temp. will be in the upper 50's today here in NC. Is it too early to start feeding a pollen substitute now?


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

chadritchie said:


> When is the ideal time to begin feeding a dry pollen substitute, such as Mega Bee or Ener-G outside the hive?
> It's January and the temp. will be in the upper 50's today here in NC. Is it too early to start feeding a pollen substitute now?


The purpose of feeding sub is to get the bees brooding. Usually it takes about 6 weeks to get a forager from an egg. So, optimally, you would start feeding about 6-7 weeks before your main flow.


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## Earl of Chatham (Jan 28, 2013)

merince said:


> The purpose of feeding sub is to get the bees brooding. Usually it takes about 6 weeks to get a forager from an egg. So, optimally, you would start feeding about 6-7 weeks before your main flow.


One exception to this is if you need to draw comb for your brood boxes. You can push that time frame back but you will have to provide lots of sugar syrup until the nectar flow. Basically you are turning sugar into wax. 

chadritchie, as an example, I have six hives that are ten frame single deeps. The main flow here in central NC is around late April early May. I plan to feed pollen patties and add on second deeps with foundation on February 15th. I will also be feeding 1:1 syrup. I will pull the syrup around April 1st and put on supers around April 15th. Of course this all depends on when the nectar flow really starts. If it shows up early then the feed comes off and supers go on sooner. Don't use this method to try to draw comb in supers ahead of the nectar flow. You don't want sugar syrup in your super frames. You would have to adjust the time frames for your location. Being in the mountains, I assume your nectar flow comes in later.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

merince said:


> The purpose of feeding sub is to get the bees brooding. Usually it takes about 6 weeks to get a forager from an egg. So, optimally, you would start feeding about 6-7 weeks before your main flow.


Merince - That is what I missed this spring already. We are getting early pollen flows and it is January 20th, back that date up 6 to 7 weeks and I should have been putting patties in during the middle of December. And that seems crazy with the normal discussion of wintering bees. LOL - OK one of you experienced beekeepers that lives within 50 miles of the big bathtub we call the Gulf, start helping us new keepers out that live in the same zone. 

Hehee - I placed my patties in 9 days ago. As Always, day late and a dollar short.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

marshmasterpat said:


> Merince - That is what I missed this spring already. We are getting early pollen flows and it is January 20th, back that date up 6 to 7 weeks and I should have been putting patties in during the middle of December. And that seems crazy with the normal discussion of wintering bees. LOL - OK one of you experienced beekeepers that lives within 50 miles of the big bathtub we call the Gulf, start helping us new keepers out that live in the same zone.
> 
> Hehee - I placed my patties in 9 days ago. As Always, day late and a dollar short.


Lol! The discussions about wintering bees are usually by people who have some kind of winter (no offense!). I have noticed that we totally confuse new beekeepers down South who instead of getting ready for their flows decide to tighten down the hatches.

On a more serious note - I have found that that mapping the bloom dates in my region helps immensely with the decision on when to place patties. Here are some more thoughts on that: 

How to maximize your honey production while minimizing swarming

How to maximize your honey production while minimizing swarming (Part II)


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## chadritchie (Jan 20, 2014)

Thank you for the explanation. Now I'm thinking that maybe I need to lay off of feeding a pollen substitute for another several weeks. Nonetheless, here is a video I recorded of my bees devouring the Ener-G Plus Bee Diet yesterday. They were loving this stuff! http://youtu.be/KZp15fh8r9M


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

I decided to order the MegaBee and received it yesterday. Thanks Merince for the pre-6-week tip on supplimental feeding for brood rearing. As I'm a new beekeep (first winter with 7 hives) I need all the tips/help I can get. The weather is still really cold down here ( 20 this am and high's in the lower 40's today) and I dont want to get back into the hives just yet, and know they won't be feeding externally for a while. Feeding too early will cause them to raise allot of brood, but with the weather still cold for about another month, and not allot of bees to cover the brood I'm going to try and stick to my plan of not feeding till the middle of next month. With that being said, I ordered some Megabee and it was delivered, so I'm in "can't wait mode" like everyone else - but don't want to rush them too much.

I know I can put some dry feed externally, just like it is but will be trying some liquid or small patties first. If you feed the liquid, from a top-mounted gallon feeder, does it still flow easly ( 2-1 sugar mixture) with the added Megabee product added to it? 

From there website, on mixing liquid instructions - 
LIQUID
Mix well in a bucket using a paint mixer or a large spoon; making sure that all powder goes in solution. The final product may have a few clumps, this is normal.

4 Cups of MegaBee powder weighs- 1 pound
2 Cups of MegaBee powder weighs- 1/2 pound
1 Cup of MegaBee powder weighs- 1/4 pound

Note: Sugar and water syrup must be mixed at a minimum 2 parts sugar to 1 part water to keep powder in suspension.

So - based off of this receipe, If I wanted to make up a 1/2 pound liquid mixture I use 2 cups of power with 2-1 sugar water mixture. Do I add 1/2 lb of sugar water to the mixture also so that the overall receipe is 1-1 - meaning equal parts of sugar water to powder mixture, or are they saying that I can only mix up 1/2 of their powder mixture to "how ever much" of liquid I want to use. I know I'm over complicating this - so please don't beat me up on this question. 


As I've never made any patties, the instructions seem pretty easy to follow. A question on the 'roll-out' or post-cutting of the patties. Are the patties easy to cut once they are formed, and should the patties be stored in the fridge after making them to preserve their 'freshness'? I'd presumed so, but wanted to ask. Do you guys wrap plastic around them to 'seal' them or user tupperware containers? I'll be making a small amount and using small amounts in the hives to allow the bees to consume quickly - or faster than the SHB's. LOL


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

With the temperatures that you mention, I would feed patties as the bees will not take syrup if it's temperature is below 50F.

Also, I would keep both patties and dry mix in the refrigerator if not used immediately. A lot of the components of the sub loose nutritional value at room temperature. Although the sub will not "spoil" at room temperature, storing it that way will cause it to lose nutritional value. Personally, I just stack them with wax paper between the patties.


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

Thanks for all the help and info provided. I received the MegaBee powder and made some up today. I cut the recipe in 1/2 as I didn't want to make up too much for the first trial run, and because I'll be cutting it into small 'strips' and putting it in the hives so the bees will get most (lol) instead of the SHB. OMG .. Why didn't any warn me as to the smell of the mixture? It certainly has it's own distinctive smell - unique and all to it's own doesn't it? Anyway, I'll try to post back whenever I've had a chance for the bees to consume, and have some type of better idea how well it's working. I added 1 teaspoon of HBH to the mix, as I didn't think it would help - and might increase their receptiveness to it. The weather is supposed to be 51 tomorrow and 58 on Monday, then back to high's in the mid 40's with low's in the lower 30's. I'm gonna put some on their front porch and see how well they like it as it's too early to start 'internal' feeding (for me now anyway) and I want to do a good inspection to check the cluster/brood patterns before I start feeding internally.


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