# Formic Acid Resistance



## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Supposedly the answer is No. The same answer was no for Thymol-Apiguard. But it was noticed by beekeepers that used the substance two years in a row that control while good, was not as good as the first year. The same might be true for formic. My recommendation would be to adapt a IPM schedule. One year use formic strips, the next Thymol, the next Hops guard, the next Apistan, then back to Formic. Always keep the mites, which are evolving off balance and unable to build resistance to the control substance. By doing so, you will give your bees a chance to evolve as Dr. Russell has posted, to build up a resistance slowly over time to the mites. Good Luck TK


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The question I have about this is if I diligently rotate and minimize my treatments but my neighbor chooses not to, does that make everything I am trying to do futile. Im not accusing my neighbors of anything but it is something that has bothered me for some time. we have used nothing but thymol and oxalic for about 5 years now and our mite problems have lessened during that time. I have also heard (sorry can't remember the source) that Formic and thymol resistance may go hand in hand.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have a lot of reasons for not using formic acid, but resistance isn't one of them. I don't see any way they can build resistance any more than you could.

The problems are:
1) it's very temperature dependent. Results vary greatly depending on the temperature which is out of your control.
2) it totally disrupts the microbes in the hive that are needed to displace pathogens and needed to ferment pollen into bee bread.
3) there have been reports of queens being killed by it.
4) there have been reports of brood being killed by it.

But I don't see the mites getting resistance any more than you could build resistance to fire.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

You may well be right on that but if I would choose to use a one year "silver bullet" treatment (can't see doing that but for the sake of argument) of a chemical/compound that my neighbor has over treated for then wouldn't that treatment be worthless?


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## unhdude (Apr 21, 2011)

My guess is that resistance could build to pretty much anything - especially to a substance which is meant to kill one arthropod and not another, as opposed to something like bleach which probably nothing will be resistant to in the near future but would kill you and your bees too.

I'm just getting started but I'm planning on being diligent with drone brood removal in addition to any chemical treatments. I'm sure eventually the mites could adapt by not preferentially seeking out drone brood, but hopefully by then VSH will be a more common trait among bees.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Development of resistance will depend on the pests ability to overcome the mode of action of the treatment. Treatments that tend to disrupt a physiological pathway can be overcome if there is a mutation to that pathway that makes an individual resistant. That individual survives to mate and pass on that trait. Eventually, the entire surviving population has genetic resistantance.

If the treatment is such that no individuals annot survive the treatment than they cannot develop resistance. For example, every tomato hornworm you pull off and step on dies. Tomato hornworms will not become strong enough to survive being stepped on. Not the best example, just what has popped into my head.

Where IPM becomes a powerful tool is when pest populations are sampled to determine if a treatment threshold has been reached and THEN the appropriate treatment is choosen. Every time you treat with a product that the pest can become resistant to brings you one step closer to developing resistance.

IPM is harder to use because you have to sample for pests. That means time/resources have to dedicated to accurately sampling. The benefits are you only treat when you have to, saving money. And, since you only use treatments when you have to you extend the time it takes for a pest to develop resistance.

Tom


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

The best treatment is less effective if your hives in an area with beekeepers who tried to raise “mite resistant” bees. I also heard beekeepers talking that they like to be “organic beekeepers”, in realities most of them falling in one of the following categories.. 
lazy, doing nothing or having no idea what to do.

If you have somebody like this in the flying range from your colonies, the re infection can be up to 4000 mite in a few days (personally experiences). If you have a hive robbing in those colonies you whole yard is in danger. 

We use (European beekeepers) here thymol, formic and oxalic for more than 25 years and no resistant has been found.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

IMO I think one of the problems with chemicals is companies to save money will use just enough chemical that it will be barely enough to take out what you want to kill.This will leave some that dont die and that is what causes resistance to the chemical.If there is enough chemical to overwhelm the pest there would be no resistance buildup.I am not saying you need to put in 3 times as much chemical because that would be against the labeling of it.I only use chemicals when it is a life or death of a hive.This way it causes the bees to do the work of the chemicals by building their resistance to the pest.I think my bees have taken care of the varroa and now I am watching the shb.I have a few hives that I am watching.Two of them I can not find a beetle in at all.while I have others next to them that are even stronger that have a few.There is some reason the ones without any beetle are keeping them out.Those will be the ones I will be raising my newest queens from.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

What Axtmann says really rings true with my experience. those folks who think that their bees are resistant are folks who have never had to deal with the realities of commercial migratory beekeeping. We can be responsible with our treatments but anyone who tries to go totally treatment free better not have any neighboring bees within flying distance.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

What experience is that? I thought you were a treatment beekeeper. What is your experience with totally treatment free? What kind of neighboring bees are you talking about?


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I dont have anyone within three miles of me and I do go treatment free unless there is a life or death situation with my bees.If everyone tried to do their part on it also to help get bees resistant to all these pest we could all be better off.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Well, drones fly. Drones can carry Varroa from one colony to the next on their backs-I have seen it. Blown out colonies that die of Varroa can spread the mites. In the last dying gasp of the colonies life, bees will leave and join up with other colonies thus spreading the problem. This Axtmann pointed out. So if you have a disease reservoir say in the form of a treatment free beekeeper that looses colonies and a commercial beekeeper that treats consciensously with IPM. The question becomes who is contaiminating who? This same situation was faced with the cotton industry in their fight against boll weevil. Some farmers would not join the spray program thus they reinfected their neighbors and set the cotton boll weevil eradication program back several years. If every beekeeper would treat JUST ONE TIME!, all at once, on a certain date. Varroa mites would be knocked a hard loop. But trying to get beekeepers to do anything or agree on anything is like herding cats. OFF TOPIC, Hey, Barry, excile out here on the third moon of Jupiter is not all that bad. There is good pale ale honey beer to be had thanks to Stonefly aka Tim Hayes. It is good stuff ice cold!!! Hope he sends you the recipe. TK got to get back to that beer!!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Oh my Barry where do I begin? To start with my statement that those who think their bees are treatment free would be in response to the previous post. My experiences with being treatment free? Our first experience, of course, was like most beekeepers at the time varroa first appeared, we didn't know what hit us, assumed varroa would be more like tracheal until we started pulling off honey and noticed there were barely any bees in the hives. Every beekeeper we talked to said the same thing, you can get Apistan strips for a couple bucks a hive or mavrik for about .10 per hive it will do the same thing. Guess which one we and everyone else we knew chose when they see their livelihoods disappearing. Treated that fall and the turnaround was dramatic, by spring the bees had completely turned around. by the next fall we even sold a load of doubles to a major queen and package producer (no not Russells) who were desperate for bees because they made the decision not to treat. Or there was the time we got a load of 512 heavily populated story and a halves off the almonds about 12 years ago, got them in late and didn't have enough strips to treat them like the rest. Made the I'll fated decision to just requeen and hope that would get us through the season, BIG mistake. Put them in a great honey producing area. Got a decent crop but by fall it was a repeat of our initial experience with varroa, there was nothing left but a few small clusters. But hey it was treatment free honey. Just last fall the late yards to get thymol treatments when the temps fell turned out to be mostly small hives, many didn't make it through the winter, the contrast with the hives treated a month earlier was dramatic, but we don't treat until the honey supers have been removed, I believe that is being a responsible honey producer, even when I know it will probably cost us in bee numbers. 
The neighbor thing: Barry surely you are not suggesting that there is no threat from being within flying distance of hives that have mite problems and other bee diseases. Yes I have plenty of those stories as well and I will gladly relate a few of those as well if that is in fact what you are saying, I was just agreeing with Axtmann who has much more of a research and academic bent than I do. Thought it was nice to see data backing up my anecdotal experience. So yeah I am a treatment beekeeper, I like to think that I am a bit more responsible than most but I'm not quite ready to drop my gloves yet and hope that Varroa dosent have a few good haymakers left.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I would like to see hard data done by a University based on treatment free beekeeping but so far I have not seen anything but "your bees where just not acclimated to your area". Show me the data! There has been plenty of research done by the USDA and Universities showing that the IPM (rotation of miticides) approach works and works well. Remember Varroa is not a static creature. It too is evolving. Thus there maybe a few more "upper cuts" to go along with those haymakers! If Tropolaelaps Clarae is ever found, everybody will have to treat. The life cycle from egg to mite is six days and this will have devestating effect on the bee industry. TK


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Now if one beek on the left has bees he treats and the have no resistance to varroa he will probably not ever have any resistant bees and will always have varroa problems.Now old Joe on the right has good bees that are really resistant to varroa and never has to treat his because he doesnt have hardly any mites.Then where are all the mites breeding at?I would think most are at the guy that does the treatments because mites will build up between treatments where as old Joe's resistant bees are keeping the mites out so no mites breeding there!!!


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

snapper how do you know this? I am an IPM beekeeper. We do mite counts. The last count was .94 mites to the hundred and that was done by the USDA. My source of reinfestation is from guys that dont do what they are supposed to do. Bee Havers is what I call them. Resistant bees have mites, these mites can and do spread out as a source of reinfestation for everybody around them. My bees have a lot of VSH/SMR traits in them but I still treat. I know what the complacency of not treating will cause--dead bees. I have lived through three collapses. Tracheal, Varroa, and CCD. If your living depends on it, you will do what you must to keep your living alive. So Snapper, I ask you in a friendly manner--what is your mite count?? TK


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The question becomes who is contaiminating who? 

Exactly my question. I think it's the large cell Varroa factories who are contaminating every one with more Varroa and, because they have to be able to reproduce faster than the chemicals kill them off, super Varroa.

>If every beekeeper would treat JUST ONE TIME!, all at once, on a certain date. Varroa mites would be knocked a hard loop. 

For about 64 days or so, maybe. Last time I treated hardly any Varroa died until the bees all did.

>The neighbor thing: Barry surely you are not suggesting that there is no threat from being within flying distance of hives that have mite problems and other bee diseases. 

Exactly why I don't want to be within flying distance of hives being treated to mask AFB and breed super Varroa and passing out genetics of bees who can't survive without treatments.

"If you're not part of the genetic solution of breeding mite-tolerant bees, then you're part of the problem. Every time you allow drones or swarms to issue from a colony that owes its survival to a miticide application, you're hindering the natural process of evolution toward mite-tolerant bees." Breeding Mite-Fighting Bees" by Randy Oliver.

Who has a pocket of unhealthy bees? The people who are propping up unhealthy bees!

Health records of my untreated bees:
http://bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Well, Micheal, what is your mite count?? And if you are using VSH/SMR stock, the chances are you just might have some of my bees genetics in them. TK


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I am going to the apiary in the morning and I will let you know the exact count I get just as soon as I get back then.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Somehow I missed your post Michael before I last posted and I think you are right on!!!


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Alcohol wash is the best. I hope you get less than 2 mites to the hundred. One or less is best. All beekeepers need to know what their Varroa mite infestation levels are in their bees. I commend you on doing this. TK


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Not real sure why commercial/migratory beeks have to constantly be defending themselves against beekeepers whose operations don't share many similarities. Well over a million hives are required for almond pollination each spring. Who has done it and remained treatment free? Must I apologize for running what most would consider a successful operation even though I am not using any chemical that has ever been shown to taint honey. How often must I hear that all I am is part of the problem even though we are selecting and breeding from our best hives plus bringing in new genetics. Does it mean anything that we have actually increased the size of our operation while using fewer and fewer treatments? Or does that just not jibe with the treatment free mentality.


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

chazman said:


> Is formic acid a treatment that varroa destructor can become resistant to? Any experience or references would be appreciated.Chuck in JAX


 In regards to the original question I don't believe mites can become resistant to treatments that don't appear to stay in the wax because there simply wont be any residue left behind for them to build immunity to, also depends on if the keeper follows directions and doesn't leave them on all year because they are just to lazy to go through a thousand hives and do it right....


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Where mites get resistance to chemicals is when the get a dose that doesnt kill and the second time it would take more chemical to do the job but if the second time doesnt kill he has more resistance and the third,fourth and so on treatments brings more resistance.And like you said some beeks that never remove when they should will just add to the resistance.Just like the old snake man down in Shreveport.I dont know if he is still alive now days but he used to take doses of venom everyday and he became immune to even crate snakes.There was a guy in Monroe,La that had a crate snake and got bitten.The old snake man had the same blood type and he went to Monroe and they did a blood transfusion and saved the guys life.Anything can get resistance if small enough doses are administered and gradually increased.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

jim lyon said:


> The neighbor thing: Barry surely you are not suggesting that there is no threat from being within flying distance of hives that have mite problems and other bee diseases.


Just wasn't clear to me in your post from which perspective (side of the fence) you were writing. Just want to be clear. So the threat to you is from treatment free beekeepers, not that you are treatment free and see the threat from those that treat.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> I am an IPM beekeeper. We do mite counts. The last count was .94 mites to the hundred and that was done by the USDA. My source of reinfestation is from guys that dont do what they are supposed to do.


Oh my. Ted, what do you base this on? Have you done mite counts in treatment free hives? This makes no sense to me. Back when I treated, mite counts went down after a treatment, but within several months they were back up. If I take your approach, I'd have to blame a treatment free beekeeper for all my mite problems back then. Problem is, there weren't any then.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Not real sure why commercial/migratory beeks have to constantly be defending themselves against beekeepers whose operations don't share many similarities.


Not sure why? Um, maybe it starts with people making statements like:



> Ted said: So if you have a _disease reservoir_ say in the form of a treatment free beekeeper that looses colonies and a commercial beekeeper that _treats _ _consciensously_ with IPM. The question becomes who is _contaiminating_ who?


If someone lumps treatment free bks together and calls them _disease reservoirs_, do you expect no responses to such statements?

Maybe best to return to formic acid resistance as the thread subject.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Barry: The threat to anyone keeping bees is to be within flying distance of someone elses bees that have been neglected to the point that weak hives can be robbed out or have strong hives and open feed. I don't feel threatened being near someone who is treatment free as long as their hives are being properly tended to. I wish those folks who want to be treatment free nothing but the best, I just wish some of those treatment free folks would show the same level of respect for guys like us. It would raise the level of discourse immensely if those who choose to criticize learn something more about the operation that they are openly criticizing as being part of the problem. FWIW I have immense respect for Randy Oliver and have learned a lot from him, many of our treatment methods are those that he has researched and found to be effective.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Barry: The threat to anyone keeping bees is to be within flying distance of someone elses bees that have been neglected to the point that weak hives can be robbed out or have strong hives and open feed. I don't feel threatened being near someone who is treatment free as long as their hives are being properly tended to.


Along this line of thought then, do you feel that feral honeybee colonies should be eliminated?


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

There are treatment free beekeepers that respect guys like you.....its the Tac-tic guys I issues with.....
mike


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Omie said:


> Along this line of thought then, do you feel that feral honeybee colonies should be eliminated?


Omie, don't pick fights until you have met this guy. I feel like you have a bias against commercial guys....Jim is one of the guys that does it differently....he uses soft chemicals, he saves as many bees as possible, and CARES what happens to them other than the profit margin....I worked for him for a week and it really changed how i looked at commercial beekeeping....
mike


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Well I got back from doing mite checks on some of my colonies.I checked 5 colonies and found 0 mites.I was afraid no one would believe me so I contacted Dr. Russell on the subject and got an answer back from him.Years ago the Baton Rouge Apiary station had an article in Bee Culture wanting people to send them queens that had not been treated in several years.Well I sent in queens to them.There was only 20 something beeks over the US that sent in queens.They bred them up for resistance to mites and then shipped each one back the same number of queens they had sent in.This is the same stock my bees came from.Here I copied and pasted the email I received back from Dr.Russell

Thanks for your question and I fully understand your reluctance to publicly mention your zero mite count. The truth is, through time ALL honey bees build resistances to mites, so long as the colonies are kept from dying due to overwhelming mite presence and as long as the colonies are allowed to naturally reproduce (swarm or supercede). We have many yards that are completely void of mites... however, I must contribute this to a wealth of variables...
1. Location... some areas, such as the far north where winters kill off mite populations that resistant bees refuse to allow to stay in the hives where it is warm, and in remote areas such as islands or the deltas where resistant bees evict the mites consistently and with out any other colonies around, the mites literally starve out.

2. The variations of resistances... most people do not realise that there are many forms of resistances, and by combining them the resistance levels increase even to the point of total mite depletion for a geographical area. The most effective of these resistances is vsh, but coupled with swarming (breaking the brood cycle), and reduced foraging (producing the most stores at once before the mites can build populations and then only foraging directly near the colony reduces the amount of mites that are picked up from blooms, which is actually a strong mechanic for the spread of mites), these three characteristics can create such an absence of feed and breeding sources for the mites, that the entire area can see an immediately identifiable drop in mite presence... through time, even a void in mite presence...

That said, there are also down sides to this high level of resistances... the areas most effected by this are production and colony numbers... thus limiting the amount of honey, drawn wax, and splits that each colony can afford to give each season... Baton Rouge crossed primorsky with already tolerant stocks in an attempt to produce just what you have there, a void of mites... this void is more geographical than genetic... if you were to bring in some untreated nucs that had mites in them, your hives would have to use their resistances to wipe out those mites as well over time... if a migratory operation was to move within foraging distance of you yards, they would most likely be picking up mites from other colonies during pollenation and bringing them along to impact your hives as well... in the development of our resistances, we actually have to bring in nucs that we know are filled with mites, just so that our resistant colonies will be exposed to them again, little by little, we select away from the negative side of the resistances, and continue to develop the positive sides. 

Thanks again for your great question and I hope I was able to help. Please feel free to copy and paste this email to the forums if you would like. I have no problems backing you up.

Dr. Robert L Russell
Russell Apiaries
www.russellapiaries.com


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Kingfisher, that's great! 
I don't have bias against 'commercial beekeepers'. I have bias against anyone who describes others' methods in derogatory and disrespectful ways. That goes both ways. There are some TF bks out there who I feel are very disrespectful to commercials and what they have to deal with. Small or hobby bks _cannot_ know the critical challenges of running a big commercial apiary, therefore we have no right to imply that we know better than they.
I'm not picking a fight with Jim. I don't even know Jim or his bk methods, as you correctly point out. Jim asked WHY commercial bks seemed to have to keep defending themselves here, and I answered with a point concerning how i see these debates get started time and time again.
My question about feral colonies is a real question, not trying to pick a fight with it. Don't we all have feral colonies within flying distance of us? Should this be dealt with in some way?

I think we should *all* be much more thoughtful before describing each other using terms such as neglectful, disease reservoirs, contaminating, proper, toxic, greedy, conscientious, lazy, etc etc. These are all being used as _judgmental descriptives, _and they imply a lack of caring or a lack of responsibility. They are completely unneeded hot buttons, and it would be great to be more aware of them when we compose our posts. Let's _think_ before we automatically apply our favorite provocative and tired adjective.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

deleted


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

HONEYDEW said:


> also depends on if the keeper follows directions and doesn't leave them on all year because they are just to lazy to go through a thousand hives and do it right....


 feelin' the love and understanding.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Omie there are still some wild colonies out there. But they are few and far between. You can not find a bee tree hardly in Alabama. We one of the most heavily wooded states in the nation. You think bee trees would be everywhere. Mites did them in. We have one colony of bees to around 1200 acres of land. So most of the disease problems are cross contamination between beekeepers here and elsewhere. So like I posted who is contaminating who?? It is Not an easy answer to find. It is not the wild stock doing the contaminating, because it is not there. What is out there escaped from someones colony in recent days in the booger woods of Alabama. Commercial beekeepers have unfairly recieved some bad press from somewhere. You want to find out how commercials operate, do like Kingfisher did, tag along a few days. You might be surprised what you might learn and some of those misconceptions might go away. Have a happy Easter. TED


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

chazman said:


> Is formic acid a treatmeant that varroa desteuctor can become resistant to? Chuck in JAX


Can someone explain the mechanics by which formic acid kills mites? Perhaps that would give us a better understanding about formic and whether rewsistance is likely.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Well I have nothing against commercial beeks.I just wish I had the years back so I could be one!!!! I was once young and foolish but now days I am just old and foolish!!!!!


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Thank you Mark for bringing the thread back to "Formic Acid Resistance". Let's continue the discussion along those lines please.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

from mitegone.com site the cut and paste didn't work very well, lost part of it 

1. How does formic acid kill mites?
Formic acid is believed to act as an asphyxiant. However, one German researcher believes the formic fumes kill the mites (but not the bees) because the mites’ exoskeletons or skins are much thinner than that of the bees, allowing the fumes to penetrate their bodies.

Until scientists agree on how exactly formic acid kills mites, they will not be able to pin down what physiological changes in the mites wounecessary to bring about resistance to formic acid. They agree that resistance in the near future is very unlikely.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Can someone explain the mechanics by which formic acid kills mites? Perhaps that would give us a better understanding about formic and whether rewsistance is likely.


Good question Mark, I have used it a few times and it is nasty and dangerous to handle, it's surprising to me that the bees themselves can survive those fumes.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Doesn't formic acid treatment tend to kill bee brood as well as mites, or to stop the queen from laying for a while?- do I remember reading that? I'm not sure.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> Formic acid is believed to act as an asphyxiant. However, one German researcher believes the formic fumes kill the mites (but not the bees) because the mites’ exoskeletons or skins are much thinner than that of the bees, allowing the fumes to penetrate their bodies.


What I thought. Now we all have a better understanding.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I would like to hear more about Formic killing all the beneficial microbes in a colony. Bush mentioned this. I would like to read the data that he has found on the subject. Question, Thymol works in a similar way-as a gas. So are the beneficial microbes killed also?? TK


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

just feed them Yoplait when your done gassing them and everything will be magically back in balance opcorn:


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Nah, I was going to use Activia. TED


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would like to hear more about Formic killing all the beneficial microbes in a colony. Bush mentioned this. I would like to read the data that he has found on the subject. Question, Thymol works in a similar way-as a gas. So are the beneficial microbes killed also??

Formic acid kills microbes by drastically changing the pH. Thymol actually has antimicrobial properties that have been used for centuries by people. It will kill bacteria, yeasts, fungus and viruses. Bee pollen needs a variety of microbes to properly ferment. All of these are susceptible to dramatic changes in pH. Some of these are yeasts. Dean and Ramona did an experiment on the effects of Formic acid on yeast and have it posted on their web site.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How long do the effects last? Long enuf to make a lasting difference?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

A certain number of these microbes exist in the bee itself,which the thymol or formic is not going to penetrate. So when the bee regurgitates nectar, it would seem that a number of these beneficial microbes would be incorporated back into the hive. Thus the beneficial flora of the hive would be quickly repopulated.


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> A certain number of these microbes exist in the bee itself,which the thymol or formic is not going to penetrate. So when the bee regurgitates nectar, it would seem that a number of these beneficial microbes would be incorporated back into the hive. Thus the beneficial flora of the hive would be quickly repopulated.


That's what I was thinking. If this were not the case, wouldn't everybody treating with formic be seeing major brood problems from the lack of fermented pollen/bee bread? I'm guessing that the pre-existing bee bread stores are sufficient during the after-treatment period while the various microflora re-establishes itself in the hive. Slightly off topic...can anybody elaborate on the rumored "cleansing effect" of formic on the combs? What about nosema spores in the comb?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

All I know is that for northern beeks, treating with formic appears to increase winter survival. This is from reports from Ontario and Alberta. I'm going to use the MAQS this August.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

_All things_ that keep mite populations in check will increase winter survival.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

True, but there appears to be some evidence that formic is more effective that Apistan or Oxalic, particularly in northern climates.


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