# X2 vs X3. Opinions on growth of your operation



## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I had a fairly successful second year and I am heading to winter with five hives, from just one last year. My concern now is the best manageable route into growing the operation. I now have the help of my wife for next year (or so she says after having real honey for the first time). I can see how five hives have increased the demand of time, especially working a full time job. Im considering a target of 10 hives for next year, vs. a target of 15. Just would like to hear opinions on how you did it and what are the major cons when growing at a fast pace, vs. a moderate pace ( 2x vs. 3x).


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

It depends on the size of your hives - if you have 5 full grown double deeps with honey supers you can probably do 3x and still make some honey if you want to. If you have 5 singles, you can probably still do 2x and make some honey. If you don't want to make honey yet then go for broke, but until you do you really won't get a very good idea of how much work that is. 

I grew for two years until I got to 10 hives and then made my first honey crop (about 100 quarts) the third year while I also expanded to 20 hives. For me further expansion was only justifiable when I started selling honey.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

If you want 10, one must raise 15. If all 15 thrive, you sell 5 to make back the cost of the equipment. A rule of thumb is one hive sold buys 2 hives capital and annual maintenance cost.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

One of the worst mistakes a novice beekeeper makes when starting out is to have more hives than they can properly care for. You will produce more honey and have more enjoyment if you stay with fewer hive than you think you can manage. 

After two or three years you can up your numbers to a new level if you wish, always remembering that honey bees colonies can increase their numbers very rapidly. With added equipment construction, swarm and disease control, the need for more storage space, extraction and bottling of the honey, and selling the additional products produced can become more like work than an enjoyable hobby.

How fast you increase your numbers also depends on other factors such as your age, health, other family activities, and long term goals. Don't take time away from being with the wife and children, and participating with them in activities they enjoy. If you do you may regret it later.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

AR Beekeeper is right.

Personally I started out with 2 then 4 then 8 by the third year. Floated up to 20 by year 7, 25 year 8 and last year ended up with 30 (said I wouldn't). As the hives have increased I've found I've become very quick at reading the hive from the outside, understanding which one's need to be inspected, inspecting quickly, and making quick decisions on what to do with the info I've got. That comes with experience. Had I jumped to 10 my 2nd year, personally I would have been overwhelmed on multiple fronts. Spending too much time on bees over the wife and kids is a loser at this point in my life. Where's the break point? That's a personal decision.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I disagree - Even If all you want is an enjoyable hobby and never want more than 5-10 hives I think you should expand into that range within very few years, and plan to make increase every single spring even if you recombine in the fall - to be able to at least recover from summer time queen issues. 

The OP however is already thinking about 15 hives and fast paced growth - which is at least a notch or two past "just an enjoyable hobby" as far as I'm concerned. So I assume *some* income is the desired end. 

Although there are some exceptions, what I have observed has been that beginners who make increase are *much *more likely to be successful and stick with beekeeping. Yes you need to be able to care for them. Yes expanding trades off making honey for a while. But the process of making increase and expanding *dramatically *speeds up the learning curve while also giving you more* fault tolerance* - and building your stock of comb and mitigating swarming. 

Maybe I'm mistaken but when I do a mental survey of beginners who expanded and those that didn't a lot more (percentage wise) of the first group are still keeping bees after 4-5 years.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

D Coates said:


> Spending too much time on bees over the wife and kids is a loser at this point in my life. Where's the break point? That's a personal decision.


It *is* a personal decision that will differ for everyone. However 10 well managed hives can pay for all or most of a decent vacation most years. Growing has forced me to become much more time efficient - other than harvesting and processing honey (which can be a family event) I doubt if I spend more than 10 minutes per hive per week on average - if that.

But I get it - I didn't get bees until after my kids were grown so my time options are more open.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It all depends what you want out of it, honestly. I'd say a nice pace is to double the hive count at this point and set goals on how many hives you want to manage. I'm lucky I can come and go at work during peak season for the most part but hitting 60+ hives from 20 took a toll on having to spend time building equipment or having enough equipment ready to move splits into after they filled a 5 frame nuc. Most of that came from not setting a goal last year and having equipment ready to go. I had a fair amount of equipment ready, but just kept on making splits and buying queens and it got to a point where I was constantly out of something which really put constraints on time. Managing the hives is fairly straight forward though once established. If you have the possibility of checking a few each day it's pretty simple to get everyone inspected on a regular and timely basis.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Like all opinions. Very good point David. I love beekeeping. The fact of taking time from family was a bit bothersome, until the wife joined. Now we talk a lot about it. The problem is that her opinions are always biased. Is hard to get her to disagree with me. So on the add 5 vs. add 10 she is on the fence as much as I am. I like the idea of selling a few in the fall to recoup investment, plus honey, I'm hoping to break even next year. How easy is it to sell your nucs/small hives?


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

Assuming all 5 hives make it through the winter. You can expand from 5 to 10 next year and get a honey crop. Simply let them make honey during the natural flow the split the 5 hives evenly after you take off the honey. Leave the original queen with one half and introduce a new mated queen to the other half. Then you have your honey crop to sell and 10 colonies to build up for winter. I am also assuming you have an early summer cut off of your natural flow like we do here in Tn.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

How about going to 10 production and 10 nucs?


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Going into year 6, and this is what I've learned. It's NOT about how many hives, it's about how many boxes of drawn comb you have available for working those hives. We started this spring with a little over a dozen drawn supers, and I used most of them on 4 colonies that built well early. I got them chock a block full of honey, and no issues with those hives trying to swarm out on me. I had 8 more that started the year with minimal drawn comb, and I was constantly working on those to try prevent swarms. During the heavy spring flow, they just wanted to plug up what comb they had then cast out a swarm.

Splitting 2 and 3 ways means you are forever short on comb for the bees, and always in the battle to prevent swarms. If I have 3 boxes of drawn medium supers to put on a double deep, it's much easier to keep them in my boxes and out of the trees, and I'll get a good crop of honey from them. Stealing a few frames of brood out to start nucs goes a long ways to reducing the swarm impulse, and provides me with increase. You'll never build a decent honey business if you are forever buying new gear and splitting the hives so heavily that they aren't strong enough to make honey. And as we have realized, once you get into that mindset, you start to think it's the only way to run bees, split them and keep them weak enough they wont swarm off of the fresh new equipment, then you never get a honey crop either.

Learn to manage a smaller number of big strong colonies, you will get more honey, and then build your colony count around the amount of drawn comb you have to work with. A side effect you will discover, one of those big strong colonies will draw out more comb in a month, than a dozen weak colonies will draw out in a season.

I've stopped counting colonies, now we count boxes of drawn comb. My plans for next spring will not revolve around specific numbers of colonies, they revolve around how I can use the comb we have to make the colonies big and strong, then harvest from them. We will harvest some bees for increase in the process of working to harvest as much honey as possible, while still getting more comb drawn in the process. But if we want to get maximum numbers of bees and honey from our colonies, it's important to make sure they never run out of empty drawn comb to work with.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I this was a re-building yr for me, I went from 2 to 10 and still made 12 gal of honey.......BUT it was an exceptional yr with nonstop flows for the most part.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

What I'm thinking as of now, seeing all this opinions, is to take two frames of brood from my best queen plus some from other hive to make nuc 1. Once I have queen cells from this queen, I can take frames from other hives and make nucs and give them the queen cells from nuc 1. I can do at least 4 more I think. Feed those like crazy while manage the other 5 overwintered colonies. If they build enough I can re split those in the summer to make 5 summer/fall nucs. Just an idea. maybe ya'll can chime in.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I really like the comments on drawn comb. I have never look at it that way, but I was somewhat worried considering I on foundation less. I have about 130 ~ 150 medium frames of drawn comb. I think I can analyze it from that point of view and come up with a good conclusion.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

jcolon said:


> How easy is it to sell your nucs/small hives?


Put it this way - I've never heard of ANYONE getting stuck with nucs that they couldn't sell. The demand far exceeds the supply of nucs that I sell.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Good point David. Was thinking this was a later on thing, but I may be able to pull it off next year. 



David LaFerney said:


> Put it this way - I've never heard of ANYONE getting stuck with nucs that they couldn't sell. The demand far exceeds the supply of nucs that I sell.


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## the kid (Nov 26, 2006)

AR I think you are right on ,,,,, family ALWAYS come first ,, yes bees do relax me , but family still always comes first and age does step up to let you know you are over doing it.. you must think some what like me


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Family balance is important indeed. I am at work 40 hrs. a week. But beekeeping is becoming a family thing. And after all Im in the backyard. And im 40 and not in bad shape if you were wondering. Just found yesterday my doctor is a beekeeper, great surprise.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

jcolon said:


> I have about 130 ~ 150 medium frames of drawn comb. I think I can analyze it from that point of view and come up with a good conclusion.


Just as a rule of thumb, an apiary can be grouped in thirds --- One-third are production hives that will make honey, The second third are resource builders -- that donate drawn comb and frames of brood to the last third -- the increase (and replacement). If you sell the increase, you are exporting the resources, and must manage for more comb drawing. 

Thinking in thirds allows you to keep the apiary young -- which more than anything else allows you to avoid the autumn crash of the big, old hives.

This means if you want the production of 5 hives (25-30 gallons), you need a behind-the-scene cohort of hives that you are stripping of brood and comb to build the next year's replacement hives -- or 5 supporting hives and 5 fresh nucs -- and surplus generated by the "supporting cast" can be sold to subsidize the expenses in the production run.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

This thread gets better. Thanks for your input. I had the idea of donor hives in the back of my head, especially for comb production. Being foundationless comb is an even more precious resource. 
I like how this sounds and kind of goes along with my previous post on the 5 new hives, and 5 more off those five later in the summer. 



JWChesnut said:


> Just as a rule of thumb, an apiary can be grouped in thirds --- One-third are production hives that will make honey, The second third are resource builders -- that donate drawn comb and frames of brood to the last third -- the increase (and replacement). If you sell the increase, you are exporting the resources, and must manage for more comb drawing.
> 
> Thinking in thirds allows you to keep the apiary young -- which more than anything else allows you to avoid the autumn crash of the big, old hives.
> 
> This means if you want the production of 5 hives (25-30 gallons), you need a behind-the-scene cohort of hives that you are stripping of brood and comb to build the next year's replacement hives -- or 5 supporting hives and 5 fresh nucs -- and surplus generated by the "supporting cast" can be sold to subsidize the expenses in the production run.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

jcolon - Yes it is a great threat. Thanks for starting it.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Grozzie and JWChestnut - Like that advice. Great information to think about.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> How about going to 10 production and 10 nucs?


How would you go about it Michael?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I would build enough equipment this winter. Then I would buy 5 nucs, install in the new equipment and build up into honey producing colonies. I would make some nucs from my overwintered colonies using bought queens. These would replace any dead or weak among those 5 colonies. Any left over I would allow to build up until...dare I say the Main Flow. I would then use them as the brood source to fill the nuc boxes and use bought queens. 

The following year, I would install wintered nucleus colonies into the deadouts, and/or re-queen the weak colonies with nucs. I would keep a few nucs, build them up into 3-4 stories, and on that Main Flow, use them as your brood source to start another year's nucs.

I think by this point, you will have to make a decision. What are you going to do with all the bees you suddenly have. If you want to keep your number of production colonies down, you can greatly expand the nucleus side of the operation. Depending on the year, and the availability of drawn comb, you can increase the number of nucs by 5-10 from each nuc. So, from 50 nucs you can make 250-500. 

If you make 300, keep 50 for next year's nucs, lose 10% in winter, you still have 220, and at [email protected], that's not a bad income from a small operation.

You won't have to buy an extractor, or a Flow Hive.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Wow. Thats a plan. A few questions.
Why buy nucs vs making my own? Same question for queens? 
Since I use all mediums, is an 8 frame medium with frame feeder a suitable size for a nuc? Im not great at wood working and dont see a cost benefit building my own. 
Last 300 nucs? Wow that sounds great but will they sell?
What about the wax cardboard nic boxes... worth the hassle?


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## MariahK (Dec 28, 2014)

I'm loving this thread, although it does make me seriously think about my own hives. I have 4 good hive now. 2 are from packages and 2 are from cut outs that were 4 but I combined them. I have been trying to make a plan for next year. I realize that these hives may need to be split at some point,or there may be swarms or other cut outs. As it is 3 of my hives are langs. And one is a top bar. I love the top bar and I suppose I wouldn't mind 2 but they are big and take up considerably more room. The langs. Are great but very heavy, but I do have a husband and 17 yr old son who can help out. I also have a second location about 15 minutes away that is out in the country that I would like to put hives at. I think that next year I'd like the 4 at my home and possibly 5 at the second location this really is just a hobby for me and my job is only 27 hours a week with summers off (school bus driver). So I feel I can really handle the extra work. Thanks for this thread it's giving me a lot to think about for next year.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

> Wow. Thats a plan. A few questions.
>Why buy nucs vs making my own? Same question for queens? 

Because it will be easier for you to expand and not over-tax your available resources in that first expansion year. Why buy queens? You haven't got the resources yet, or the experience to raise the queens yet. Concentrate on learning how to manage production colonies to make honey and manage nucleus colonies to winter and use in your operation. You have enough to learn over the next number of years without trying to do everything at once. 

>Since I use all mediums, is an 8 frame medium with frame feeder a suitable size for a nuc? Im not great at wood working and dont see a cost benefit building my own. 

Don't know what to say about mediums. I use deeps and prefer larger combs, as do queens. I meant build...either from scratch or bought in and assembled. 

>Last 300 nucs? Wow that sounds great but will they sell?

Don't know about Arkansas, but they sure do in the northeast. Heck, load 'em up and move 'em out to New England to fill the orders and take that hard working wife of yours for a vacation and a nice Lobster dinner. 

>What about the wax cardboard nic boxes... worth the hassle? 

Good enough for sales but not for permanent use.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

MariahK said:


> I'm loving this thread, although it does make me seriously think about my own hives. I have 4 good hive now. 2 are from packages and 2 are from cut outs that were 4 but I combined them. I have been trying to make a plan for next year. I realize that these hives may need to be split at some point,or there may be swarms or other cut outs. As it is 3 of my hives are langs. And one is a top bar. I love the top bar and I suppose I wouldn't mind 2 but they are big and take up considerably more room. The langs. Are great but very heavy, but I do have a husband and 17 yr old son who can help out. I also have a second location about 15 minutes away that is out in the country that I would like to put hives at. I think that next year I'd like the 4 at my home and possibly 5 at the second location this really is just a hobby for me and my job is only 27 hours a week with summers off (school bus driver). So I feel I can really handle the extra work. Thanks for this thread it's giving me a lot to think about for next year.


I started it because I started planning what to buy for next year and found myself with a different scenario in my head every two hours. Its getting hard to plan properly. I know I want honey for me and for sale and I would love to at least break even. Its great to have a wide variety of experiences to understand what im up against. I appreciate all the input especially having @therealMichaelPalmer chime in. Maybe I can get Mr Bush to throw in his $2 worth in the discussion. opcorn:


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"I had a fairly successful second year and I am heading to winter with five hives, from just one last year."

How did you increase from one to five in one year?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

grozzie2 said:


> It's NOT about how many hives, it's about how many boxes of drawn comb you have available for working those hives.


This was an excellent post, and my thoughts when I first read the OP.

I don't know how much "extra" drawn comb you have available for the coming spring, but if it's minimal you may want to dedicate that comb to just a couple of hives. Assuming all or most of your colonies come out of winter in good shape, pick a couple of the best hives and use that comb for swarm prevention and honey production on those hives only.

The other colonies will most likely prepare to swarm if there is not enough drawn comb to go around, so use that to your advantage. Rather than allowing the bees to swarm, plan on doing splits to increase your hive count. Splits with swarms cells should do very well and you don't need to put a lot of effort into raising queens .. the bees will take care of that for you. 

Add a few more production colonies, make a few nucs. Get some more frames drawn out and grow your colony numbers at a controlled and balanced pace. There has been a lot of good advice given on this thread for you to digest.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

First hive went into swarming mode. Made two nucs. Kept old queen. Bought one nuc. Another nuc tried swarmed. Made into two. Fed through the dearth. Now got one huge italian hive. Four carnis, three fairly strong, one in a single med, basically a big nuc.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"Im considering a target of 10 hives for next year, vs. a target of 15."

I would plan woodwork for a dozen hives and keep doing what you are doing. You will need the woodwork eventually anyway. I would consider checker boarding to reduce swarming and I would use some swarm traps. Email me and I'll be happy to provide some information on swarm trapping. Be prepared to lose a couple of hives this winter, particularly the "nuc". It's better to be pleasantly surprised than unpleasantly disappointed. After the spring flow, I would consider making some summer splits for increase or sale. We had demand for nucs quite late this season. Cheers, and tell my friend Kevin Holland hi if you run into him up there.
David


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Great thread. 
I am carrying nucs into winter with my production colonies this year, because of similar advice last year. I came out with 4, and am going in with 15 of different configurations. Hope I can dedicate 5 for production colonies in the spring, and continue increase with the rest. Also, purchased queens take the lost time of laying out of the equation. I raise my own, but, there is a month of lost time doing so should you want rapid increase. G


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

You can always increase working to the stronger side instead of nucs. Here is what I wrote to organic beekeeping list to similar question:



> This is my suggested method working to the strong side:
> 
> So my friend Bob wants to make a small bee business. For the sake of simplicity we will talk about 10 hives here. So he has 10, 3 deep ULBN hives (or the equivalent or 5 mediums if that is your choice). For each production hive he will have at least 2 deep supers or 5 medium supers with spares(you will extract and put back on if needed). He needs to makes some $$$ to get more equipment yet expand at the same time. So he takes 5 of his "best" hives sets them up for production. The other 5 hives are split 3 ways with full box splits walk away style, but you do balance the brood in them. These splits are built up to 3 deep. He now winters 20 hives. Next year he takes his best 10 hives for production. The other 10 turn into 30 walk away splits built up to 3 deep. He now winters 40 strong hives. He now supers 20 hives. The other 20 are split 3 ways to equal 60 walk away splits, that are built up 3 deep. He loves bees and he really want more and more. So he takes 40 hives to production, he now has 40 other triple deeps and he makes each hives into 6, 5 frame nucs.. 40 x 6 = 240 5 frame nucs. He builds these 240 nucs into double deeps and winters. OR he takes these 240 nucs and turns them into 700 nucs and winters them. He then keeps 150 of the best nucs in spring to replace the 40 hives he split up. He sells the 550 nucs @ $150 each. He grosses $82,500 on nucs sales alone. Repeat the process till you get were you want to be. I threw some variation in there to show you some options. This is all of course ideal w/o loses.


Hope these concepts might interest some. BTW on the walk away split you can buy queens, add cells, or let bees raise there own or a combination of all.

Clay


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Mike Palmer really laid it our well. The most common mistake I see is new beekeepers building an operation don't realize the 1st step is to learn to keep bees successfully. They jump into queen rearing, making nucs etc and use up resources they just can't afford to loose. Keep bees and make honey for couple of years, learn the cycle of the season and of bees and when you can do that then grow. This mean reaching self sufficiency through making your own healthy hives and bringing in new stock to grow so you are not losing ground by making manipulations you don't have resources for. Admitting your time limitations and being realistic about what can do is important. I worked full time 40+ hours a week, Ran 150 hives and made 40 trips to NYC (250 miles each way) for 10 years selling honey. In 2010 I walked out of a 55K+ a year job with full benefits and now I do this full time with my son and love it. Successfully managing 10 hives vs 15 hives will have no huge impact because as you move along your manipulations will become much more efficient. Set some clear goals, when you buy fixed equipment buy it for what you will need 5 year down the line not for what you are doing today. Always have an escape route. By that I mean Know the value of what you have and a plan to liquidated some or all of it is you decide making bees a business isn't really what you want. As a hobbyist when I had a difficult day with bees I could walk away and come back another day. Making a living with bees I have to push through days when bees are in ugly stinging moods, and trucks or trailers are on the side of I-95 with a flat tire or smoke coming out from under the hood and a few hundred hives under a net that looks nice but really does not contain bees for very long. I spent 2 hours in NYC traffic waiting to get on the Geroge Washington Bridge last Thursday and I have almost 600K miles of windshield time to markets, bee yards in SC and running out yards in the past 10 years. A bad day in the bee yard is still a good day for me because I own that day as does my son own his day. Most of all, as Mike's post alludes to find your niche. You have to sell a lot of something to make a living. What do you like best, making bees, making honey, making pollination, making candles, look what the Burts Bees Girl did. We went from 1 hive (which I promptly let die in two weeks of bad spring weather) to 2, then 10 then 50 (our most efficient and productive level) to now which in the spring we are managing 600+ hives and nucs until nuc sales when we drop down to 250 we run as 2 queen units.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

Joel said:


> We went from 1 hive (which I promptly let die in two weeks of bad spring weather) to 2, then 10 then 50 (our most efficient and productive level) to now which in the spring we are managing 600+ hives and nucs until nuc sales when we drop down to 250 we run as 2 queen units.


Great post Joel, you had a vision and made it a reality. How long did it take you to grow from one hive to 600+? Just wondering if the above sentence is suggesting it was done in just 3 years? Thanks,
-Dave


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jcolon said:


> Im not great at wood working and dont see a cost benefit building my own.


It is a time benefit if you are small. From now until March there is not much to do and then you have to go wall to wall after that.
Beekeepers that sell nucs will suggest selling nucs of course but starting out you will most likely sell to those you know and that will put another time burden on you. You might find yourself managing their hives or teaching them what to do. I would avoid selling nucs at this stage of your beekeeping.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Mosherd 1, I started as a hobbyist in 1992 and loved it right out of the box. I had 50 hives by 1996, lost almost all our bees to varroa in 1997 a year after they arrived, rebuilt in 1997 and started our NYC operation in 1998. We grew fast from 1998 to 2002 when we were running around 200 hives ( 325 for spring management) and by 2008 were at 400+ under spring managment. Next year we are on course for over 1000 spring units, all splits from our own bees. So that 3 years is really more like 23!


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

About bee plans and setting goals...

Bees are not something that you can use math on. In other words "bee math" does not work.
So saying that a person will increase by 50% per year is not realistic but we all try and anticipate our needs. This is one of the most difficult parts of keeping bees. I mean knowing what you'll need in 3 months. 

For instance:
My original plan this spring was to try and get 4 bee hives established and hope that maybe 2 live thru the winter. That plan fell apart very quickly. Let me explain...
Got real active in the bee group (club) and stuff kept falling on me. One thing led to another. Swarms, cutouts, people gave me hives to manage...now I have OMG 25. 

The point of this post is to show you how out of hand it can get if you "work towards that". Am super pleased. 

It sounds like Joel works a bit harder at it than I do. WOW.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Then I would buy 5 nucs, install in the new equipment and build up into honey producing colonies. I would make some nucs from my overwintered colonies using bought queens. These would replace any dead or weak among those 5 colonies. Any left over I would allow to build up until...dare I say the Main Flow. I would then use them as the brood source to fill the nuc boxes and use bought queens.


Will he be able to get nucs early enough to take advantage of the Main Flow?


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## the kid (Nov 26, 2006)

ask 10 beekeeps get 40 answers


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Started with 6 this year, have those and 28 nucs going into winter. So what if all those nucs survive? Now busy making boxes and frames. 30 X 5 boxes and thats 150 boxes filled with frames. Looking at starting 45 nucs so have to account for those as well. So far have about half built, all home made from cull lumber, frames too. The equipment is a big consideration and potential expense. Each box costs me about 3 dollars, and the frames for each box about another 4 dollars. Time consuming but good from the cash flow perspective. A table saw and learning how to use it is a great investment for a beekeeper. 

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned is bee yards. Once you get to a certain size, the backyard isn't going to work. Each expansion by 15 to 30 hives is going to require another one. For me that may be the rate limiting step. 

Raising good queens may be beyond a beginner, but that learning curve has to be climbed anyway. One of the better rowing coaches I knew threw kids in tippy singles right away. He produced wonderful scullers that ended up on national teams. Challenging oneself and setting high goals creates a good learning environment. But bring in a few queens to cover your mistakes


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I have the same idea. Anything above 15 hives can be too taxing for a backyard operation depending on your climate and foliage. I have already started eyeballing potential yard locations in the vicinity, but still a few years away.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

You can use your best 2 or 3 for honey, split the rest up into 3 frame nucs with purchased queens. Then after you've gotten some honey, and the nucs have grown into a full box or more, do more splits with your own raised queen cells, or with purchased queens, so that you can go into the next winter with your 15 hives and nucs. After you have gotten enough honey, if that happens  - you can split them up into summer nucs and build them up with the other nucs you have, into 2 box or more colonies for winter.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Awesome thread. Mike Palmer has tons of knowledge with bees but only you know what burns inside you. I have a five year plan and have been on this site just about every day since I have joined. I have read and asked and did. I say, if you want to raise your own nucs, then read about all the ways to rear and try more than one. You can do it as long as the drive is there. I went from one package in spring 2014, to 20 hives this year. Sold 7 nucs to help pay for lumber. Made woodware last winter including frames, (great experience) and grafted (totally awesome). Even bought bulk supplies for newbees in need of everything. 

Even if I lose a few overwinter, Im still ahead, in dollars and hives.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

jcolon said:


> Im not great at wood working and dont see a cost benefit building my own.


I always got A's in woodshop way back, but the table saw I bought paid for itself the first year. I make everything, and I can say with all honesty, the thought of making frames makes me uncomfortable. Thinking of assembling them makes me want to refill a keg. But in the winter it gives me plenty to do, I've been lucky enough to have found recycled lumber for all my hives and components. If you have the means and a bit of training you can save thousands, however once you reach a certain point, making frames won't be feasible to me anymore, but I'll always make my own boxes, tops, and bottoms. As far as queens are concerned, make your own  good fun bro


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I make my tops and bottoms. They are good. And I don't like any of the commercially available and they are too expensive for what it is. I'm never happy 100%. 1/16 of an inch short and I'm mad every time I look at it. But I live with it and bees don't care. Boxes I buy. Too cheap to spend time making my own. I don't think I can shave enough to pay for my time.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

jcolon said:


> Boxes I buy. I don't think I can shave enough to pay for my time.


That's where I save most of my money building my own equipment, hive bodies. With just a table saw, and using simple rabbet joints, you can easily cut your cost for boxes down quite a bit. I wait for sales at the lumber yard, and can make my own boxes for close to 1/2 the cost of pre-cut boxes. If you have the time and inclination, it really adds up.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

I make my own supers but not hive bodies. My thought was that since the hive bodies are out in the weather all year that they would need the box joints for extra strength and help with longevity. Have you noticed that your rabbeted hive bodies have a good life span. If so, maybe I will make some up this winter. Thanks,
-Dave


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I see your point. is not for everyone. I got no idea what will it take in time, but I assume maybe 30 mins per box, and lets say $4 in lumber and I think im being conservative. Add having to go to the big blue, pick it load it, transport it. Another 2 hrs plus gas. If im making 40 boxes - 4 x 40 = 160. Add 22 hours for the work and the 300 dollars saw. In the meantime I can get boxes at 8.70 a pop delivered @ my front porch. It doesn't really works for me. 



Mike Gillmore said:


> That's where I save most of my money building my own equipment, hive bodies. With just a table saw, and using simple rabbet joints, you can easily cut your cost for boxes down quite a bit. I wait for sales at the lumber yard, and can make my own boxes for close to 1/2 the cost of pre-cut boxes. If you have the time and inclination, it really adds up.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> Have you noticed that your rabbeted hive bodies have a good life span


Rabbet joints seem to do very well for me. I've been making them for years and have not had one fail me yet. I use pipe clamps when gluing and they have held up great. Takes some extra time to assemble, but that's what winter is for.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Rabbet joints seem to do very well for me. I've been making them for years and have not had one fail me yet. I use pipe clamps when gluing and they have held up great. Takes some extra time to assemble, but that's what winter is for.


Thought it was to kill all the bugs except bees.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

jcolon said:


> I see your point. is not for everyone.


That's exactly right, not for everyone. I have more time in the winter to tinker so I probably do not put a very high value on my "time". It's therapeutic for me, and saves me some cash. 

The main thing is it gets me out of the house and into my man cave.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

jcolon said:


> Thought it was to kill all the bugs except bees.


One of the side benefits


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Mike do you use a double rabbet, or single? Do you nail/staple from both sides or just one? I just used butt joints for the boxes I made in haste over the summer, but am considering trying the rabbets with more time on my hands this winter. G


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I first tried the double rabbets which worked out very nice. Second round I used a single rabbet cut on the ends the same depth as the top bar recess. Both worked great, but the single rabbet took much less time to cut. On some of the boxes I used a couple of screws on each corner as an extra precaution, but have found that they are unnecessary if you make good cuts and clamp well when gluing. 

I'm not terribly hard on my equipment but the boxes have been dropped or handled roughly at times and I've never had a joint fail on me. I only use butt joints on my feeder rims. I just don't trust them as much, and there is twice as much end grain exposed compared to a rabbet joint.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Thanks Mike, yeah, the end grain is my concern. I will try a sample of both but could see the single will be much faster, if you have had no problems that's what I wanted to hear. I too am not very hard on the equipment. G


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You don't need to get fancy, butt joints all the way.
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Hive Bodies/HiveBodies018.jpg
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Hive Bodies/HiveBodies001.jpg
No exposed end grain.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

biggraham610 said:


> yeah, the end grain is my concern.


I seal/slather TiteBond III over the exposed endgrain of all of my assemblies. Then it essentially is nonexistent. Paint *will not* serve the same purpose.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I spread TiteBond on the ends too. 

It works pretty well for the most part, but I've found that in my climate the freeze/thaw cycles of the seasons eventually cause the end grain to begin to crack. Once moisture finds this point of entry into the end grain it continues to deteriorate. That's why I prefer a design with as little end grain exposed as possible.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Rabbets screwed from both directions. A lot of mine are made this way. Plenty strong.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Thanks. G


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Acebird said:


> You don't need to get fancy, butt joints all the way.
> http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Hive Bodies/HiveBodies018.jpg
> http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Hive Bodies/HiveBodies001.jpg
> No exposed end grain.


That is interesting, do you glue them or just screw them for eas of repair?


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## Hiwire (Oct 19, 2014)

First let me say that I work as a landscape foreman 40 to 50 hrs per week. I started with 2 hives, went to 5 the following year, then 10, went in to last winter with 23, came out with 20. This fall I have 35 with plans to go to 45 or 50 next year. I made 2000 lbs of honey this year so selling that will create a big job of its own but what seems to make the most money for me is making splits from those hives, letting them make their own queens, installing them in new hives, and selling them to new beekeepers. Another option is buying queens to speed things up. There is a whole group of urban and suburban people out there who say "I always thought about getting a bee hive". I found them. Last year from my 20 hives that made it through the winter I took 2 nucs from each one. Many of them went in to hives that were sold, some went to increase and replace mine that didnt make it through the winter. I also purchased additional nucs along the way. Im not afraid to spend a some of that money to buy select boxes so the new beeks are getting the best quality for what I charge. Many people who only plan on having 1 hive in their back yard so dont mind paying extra for the best equipment. Make sure you use every minute efficiently. You cant afford to hire employees, nor do you need to. Spend the saved minutes to spend with potential customers explaining why they should get a hive from you. While you are building their hives, set a bit of equipment aside for yourself to expand with. If you enjoy teaching, talking with people, and "creating" new beeks, it can pay for your own habit and without realizing it you will be producing your own nucs, your own honey, and a business. If you find you are selling more hives than you can produce nucs for, dont be afraid to purchase nucs to use in the sold hives. Be sure to let yourself expand. Dont keep your own hives totally knocked down from making splits off them. This year I figured that each of my 20 overwintered hives gave me about 2+ nucs plus about 80 lbs of honey. Some of the first year hives gave me 30 lbs for a total of 2000 lbs. Taking in to account small bottles that sell for more per lb (I sell more of these) and bigger bottles that sell for less, my honey sales average something like $9 per lb. I make more on the hive sales but the honey is nothing to sneeze at. Its been prety intense and going in to winter with almost double the hives of last winter means the potential for a LOT more work but I like staying busy. I am already building new hives for people that want to put them under the Christmas tree. Its cool for a beekeeper to be making some decent money in November in the northeast!! Its just one more option for you to consider if you like keeping bees but you have to also enjoy working with people.
Ray


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Ray very impressed with your story. I was concerned on taxing my hives too much by making nucs. I See you have successfully done it and your production majestic. Well Done. How much land is your bee yard sitting on? Do you use traditional 10 frame deep for the nest or have you standardized equipment in any way?


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

Hiwire said:


> ....This year I figured that each of my 20 overwintered hives gave me about 2+ nucs plus about 80 lbs of honey. Some of the first year hives gave me 30 lbs for a total of 2000 lbs. Taking in to account small bottles that sell for more per lb (I sell more of these) and bigger bottles that sell for less, my honey sales average something like $9 per lb.


Great explanation of your operation, may I ask how you are selling that much honey with a profit of $9.00/lb? Is it mostly farmers markets, word of mouth, consignment in stores? Thanks for the insight, I think your story is what many of us hope to aspire to one day. Thanks,
-Dave


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I just butt joint medium boxes from cull 2 by 8's, glue and deck screws. Use a planer to straighten warped boards where they join so they sit flat and relieve tension. The quality has definitely gone up. Take about 5 minutes extra per box. I'm hoping the extra thickness will be of benefit come winter. The extra thickness is useful for getting an exact frame fit, and I may just be able to fit a 8 frame box from this year on a 10 frame from last. 

Good tip on glue on the end grain. When I have time, will be finding some cull paint and working to maintain the equipment. Lucky my climate is pretty dry.


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## Hiwire (Oct 19, 2014)

Thank you for your kind words. Most of my money is going back in to the business for new materials, booth rental, tools, and advertising such as t shirts, sweatshirts, cards, a couple paid ads, and some give aways that bring in people. My PROFIT is not $9 per lb. I sell at an average of $8 per lb, but I also sell a lot of 2 oz "baby bears" at $2 each...$16 per lb. 3 and 5 lb bottles are closer to $7.50 but dont sell as many. At the end of the day, I average about $9 for every lb sold. I sell at the big Regional Market in Syracuse. I also sell at a smaller market, the local diner, and a couple gift shops. I will be spending some time this winter looking for a couple additional outlets but Im not far off.
I try to keep about 10 hives in a yard so there isnt a lot of competition for forage. Yes I have standardized somewhat. About half of my bees are on mediums. I like the easier assembly and I REALLY like how much easier it is on ME. Im 56, not getting any younger, and had shoulder surgery about 11 months ago. Between motorcycle accidents and a 40 yrs of landscaping I am pretty beat up. I appeciate the lighter boxes. A lot of hobbiest really like the idea of the smaller boxes. Some of them are women, older folks (at least my age), or just plain dont want to lift the bigger boxes. My business is definitely a work in progress every day. I am always open to trying new ideas. You just never know what will stick. I am also not afraid of charging for "house calls" if it means moving frames around, driving more than a couple miles, or visiting more than once. Most people are happy to spend a few dollars to learn something. There is definitely a niche for someone wanting to spend time chatting and helping new beeks. Just something to consider. I always remember there are so many ways to do things, what works for me, may not work for them but all I can do is tell them how I do it and point them toward our local clubs so they can learn from others too. What I do may not work in every area. Syracuse is just a few miles from where I am so there is a wide variety of people. It may not work in all parts of the country.
Ray


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I've used rabbets on all my boxes, glue with TB III and staple both directions on every joint. I've only had 2 come apart on me and that was because one deep was full of honey when I dropped it (just broke the glue joints) and the other was a brood box that I dropped on a corner off a truckbed (broke the glue joint and that box was made from plywood). I seal the minimal end grain with glue too. I'll be going into my 6th season with all boxes made with rabbets.


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## mitch30 (Feb 8, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> If you make 300, keep 50 for next year's nucs, lose 10% in winter, you still have 220, and at [email protected], that's not a bad income from a small operation.


When you say sell nucs at $150 is that a 5 or 4 frame or a 8 or 10 frame nuc? It is such a Joy to make up nucs in the summer. 

Mitch


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

5 frame


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

jcolon said:


> Ray very impressed with your story. I was concerned on taxing my hives too much by making nucs. I See you have successfully done it and your production majestic. Well Done. How much land is your bee yard sitting on? Do you use traditional 10 frame deep for the nest or have you standardized equipment in any way?


I'm on 3.3 Acres, the area here is terrible for beekeeping. What isn't rice fields is dead grass fields in the summer and fall, not much forage here. I have not even tried for much honey production in a couple years now.

I use 8 frame deep Langstroth equipment, with 4 frame nucs. This year I increase from 4 to 14, all are in an 8 frame configuration; 7 are 4 over 4, and 7 are single 8 frames. Not much forage here, so fed a lot of sugar this year, to get the 80+ combs drawn for all the increase. A couple years ago I scraped and melted wax of all frames, so I've been starting over now with mostly foundationless frames.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

RayMarler said:


> I'm on 3.3 Acres, the area here is terrible for beekeeping... This year I increase from 4 to 14,


If there is so little to forage on is it wise to expand x3" What is your motivation?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Acebird said:


> If there is so little to forage on is it wise to expand x3" What is your motivation?


Maybe he enjoys keeping bees?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Maybe ....$$$$


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

With mediocre forage, you just need a plan. We use the home yard as a nursery and for teaching hives. Once the hives are big enough they go into outyards of 8 - 10 hives, typically in a riparian zone. Outyards are scattered within a few miles of a line between home and work.

My wife teaches a class on making money as a hobbyist and the takeaway is finding what works for you given your skill set and your area.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

ChuckReburn said:


> My wife teaches a class on making money as a hobbyist and the takeaway is finding what works for you given your skill set and your area.


That has got to be an interesting course because one philosophy is opposite to the other.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Not following you.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Most people think of a hobby as an expense paying for enjoyment of something we like to do and making money is more of an income like work.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

Acebird said:


> Most people think of a hobby as an expense paying for enjoyment of something we like to do and making money is more of an income like work.


I suppose that's a good attitude if you split like crazy and just absorb the loss. On the other hand she spoke to a packed room of hobby beekeepers looking for a way to recover some of their investment.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I would opt to watch the year and make my decision as the rainfall stacks up.

If it comes down near ideal conditions for maximum flower growth, split like crazy and build a bunch of equipment. Heck, buy more bees up to about 30 colonies. If it turns out dry, stay on the conservative side.

Then put in about 3 to 7 years growing from 30 up to around 100 colonies. Learn queen rearing. Then you will likely know enough to grow your apiary. To jump in financially at 100 or more colonies and NOT know beekeeping like a 5 to 10 year beekeeper could prove financially unfortunate.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Acebird said:


> If there is so little to forage on is it wise to expand x3" What is your motivation?


Yes, I do like keeping bees, they seem to be good therapy.
I'm trying to find a way to make it here with them, this is the worst area I've ever tried keeping bees. I wanted to get up some numbers to be able to work with in spring. My only hope for honey is very early in the season. I now have drawn comb, and enough hives I can make one or two strong for early spring flows, such as they are. I also wanted to play with the genetics of what I have here, it's been quite interesting. Next year I'm greatly reducing the hives, and concentrating on trying to get me a queen rearing system going here, small scale, maybe 4 queens a week or so.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Another point to all beekeeping is local. It can be done. You have to learn and adapt to your specific conditions. 



RayMarler said:


> Yes, I do like keeping bees, they seem to be good therapy.
> I'm trying to find a way to make it here with them, this is the worst area I've ever tried keeping bees. I wanted to get up some numbers to be able to work with in spring. My only hope for honey is very early in the season. I now have drawn comb, and enough hives I can make one or two strong for early spring flows, such as they are. I also wanted to play with the genetics of what I have here, it's been quite interesting. Next year I'm greatly reducing the hives, and concentrating on trying to get me a queen rearing system going here, small scale, maybe 4 queens a week or so.


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