# Bee Lineing or Following the Wild Ones



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

The trick is to get low to the ground, so that
the bee is contrasted against the sky. You
will only see the bee for some certain distance
before you loose sight of the bee, but once
the bee makes a few minor adjustments to its
flight vector and settles down on a steady
course, you have what should be a decent
bearing to the hive (or at least to a major
terrain feature where the bee makes a significant
course change).

The biggest problem is finding a bee that is
"full up", and sure to fly back to the hive
rather than to another bloom. This is why
a bee-lining box is such a useful tool.
(Betterbee sells them, my Dad makes them. 
They should have some "in stock" by the
end of January.)

The second biggest problem is tracking the bee 
as it circles when it first takes off. The
trick here is to get yourself outside the circling
so you don't end up spinning around and getting
dizzy.

There are some who sprinkle day-glo colored chalk
on bees while foraging or while in the bee-lining
box, and this can help it to be more visible.

There are others who do unspeakable things to bees,
such as attaching feathers or strings with super
glue to slow down the flight of the bee. This
is very poor form, and the mark of a lazy and
unenlightened bee-liner.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

http://beesource.com/pov/wenner/bsjun1992.htm


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

There is a book entitled "Keeping Bees", written by John Vivian, that has information about beelining. The book is a little dated but very enjoyable to read, and he gives instructions on building a beelining box out of a cigar box.

[ January 24, 2007, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: ikeepbees ]


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

There is a little trick of not looking directly at the bee but tracking them in your peripheral vision. It takes a lot of practice but I find it works sometimes. It seems to me that I have to learn to do it all over again every time I try beelining and that can take as much as a half hour before it starts to work.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

A little saucer of sugar syrup makes it a lot easier. The bees find it quickly or you can catch a few and/or give them a taste on a small stick. They recruit other bees that fill up quickly and return to their hive. Soon the direction will be quite obvious - the bees don't mess around with circling much. If possible, try to view the bees against the sky, preferably a cloudy sky. If the feeding bees fight a little, then you probably have more than one colony to track down.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Albert,

If you lay on your back or sit on the ground in the bee yard it is easier to follow. The trick is to follow bees as they spiral up and when several bees tracked this way, you can begin to see at what level they will break from the spiral and take off, then next bees are easier to follow because you have an idea where they will begin flying in a certain direction and bearings can then be determined. 

Where my bees are surrounded by tall trees, the bees will make about 5 or more spirals up to about 60 feet to clear the treetops making it difficult to track them, but in open areas, they will begin with a bearing sooner.

I have difficulty tracking in sunny days, the sky is just too bright. So I wear sunglasses or beeline on over cast days. Also, during sunny evening hours, you can sit on a chair in the shade to block sun from your eyes about 20 yards to the east of your apiary (the distance lessens how fast you need to move your eyes to follow the bee, somtimes making it easier to track). The setting sun serves to backlight the bees making them much easier to follow.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>There are others who do unspeakable things to bees,
such as attaching feathers or strings with super
glue to slow down the flight of the bee. This
is very poor form, and the mark of a lazy and
unenlightened bee-liner.

When I first started hunting deer I asked an American Indian friend who I knew was feeding his family with wild game, if he could teach me any tricks to getting a deer. He said, you go out at night and shine a bright flashlight in their eyes and while they are frozen from the light you shoot them in the head. I said, that's not even legal. He said, the deer doesn't know that.

If your goal is sport, then you should learn to beeline. If you want to find bees, a downy feather on the bee is the trick I learned from my practical Indian friends.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Thank Y'all Very Much!

Well I learned quite a bit on this now. I've found references to the bee lineing box so I'm going to try that.

I do have a question though on tieng a bit of down on a bee. Do you use floss to lasso the girls then tie the down to 'em? Or is there some kind of wrestling kind of move you use?

Seriously, I understand practicality and will allow that circumstances sometimes require a pragmatic approach. Especialy in certain areas of our Nation that have been cast aside and forgoten. Haven't faced those circumstances yet, and hope I never have to.

Though gluing a piece of down to a bee seems to be kind of in a grey area... How do you glue it to them anyway?

Thanks,
Albert


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How do you glue it to them anyway?

The American Indians I knew used a drop of pine sap. Super glue, of course, will work, but you might feel better about the pine sap. The other bees will probably clean that off eventually and maybe even use it for propolis.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> A little saucer of sugar syrup makes it a lot 
> easier. The bees find it quickly...

What time of year has this worked for you?
I've put such baits right in front of hives,
and had the bees ignore the "feeder" in favor
of foraging often. On feeders placed 100 meters
away from hives, I've had worse results.

> If your goal is sport, then you should learn 
> to beeline. If you want to find bees, a downy 
> feather on the bee is the trick I learned 

This approach would have to be demonstrated
to take it out of the "myth" category. 
Have you ever even tried it yourself?
I've attached too many ID tags to bees to buy 
a claim that down can be attached without killing
half a dozen bees before getting one that 
survives, and is able to fly. When we tag
bees, we chill them down first, to avoid the
problems that anyone not chilling down bees
would have, and even then, it takes a steady
hand and lots of practice before it can be
done "well".

[ January 29, 2007, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: Jim Fischer ]


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Your true feathers are showing again Jim.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

I've done the "saucer of sugar syrup" beelining mostly in July (usually when on vacation somewhere and I notice a few bees around). Don't put the "feeder" right in the forage (like in the middle of a lawn full of dutch white clover) - the bees recruited will be after the forage. Put the feeder off a ways to one side. If in a hurry, take a cotton swab of syrup and get a bee from the forage and, while it's lapping up the syrup, take it to the dish. Repeat a few times. The bees will notice the new location and associate it with the new "nectar" flavor/odor, recruiting accordingly back at the hive. I've tried at other times, spring, summer, fall and don't recall an instance that didn't eventually work.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've had the best luck looking for bees at a water source and either tracking them or converting them to foraging with some syrup. Bees in a flow are usually already occupied.

>Again, sad. Looks like respect for all living
things has declined. 

From an American Indian point of view eating living things is not a lack of respect. It is a requirement to stay alive. You have to eat something that was living. For you to live, something must die.


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## flathead (Nov 1, 2006)

Excuse my ignorance.

I assume that long ago beelining was for the honey.

Why would we (modern beekeepers) want to beeline other than sport? I mean if I find a bee tree I would leave it alone and use it for a drone mother colony for my queens.

Is it to locate traps for swarm catching?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Honey, Bees, Swarms, Assessment of feral colonies (number, quality, health etc.).


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## Craig W. (Feb 26, 2006)

I don't think I will be very good at tracing bees. I tried some today while it was 70 plus. The bees were shooting left and right from the hive. I could follow them about 100' in one direction, then I am sure I looked like a complete idiot out there looking up and spinning around.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Fellows,

I needed to know because another gentleman was asking for an assesment of feral colonies in an area where one lives. I'm always game for learning something new.

What I wasn't expecting though, was thinly veiled barbs being cast at others. 

Jim Fischer, I think that you might have phrased your commentary a little less antagonisticly and still gotten your point across. I am NOT trying to start a flameing issue here. But, what I read was insulting and inflamatory, (and I don't even know MB, other than he takes the time to answer 80% of all the posts in the forum and seems to be a neverending source of knowledge and references, and what you say you don't want to sound like, is exactly what you sounded like.

Look, I'm as respectful of life as any Native American; I hunt, I fish, I even grow some vegetables. I studied micro-biology and manage construction projects. I am currently studying bee breeding and genetics, and permaculture.

As a biologist, I don't see any problem with gluing a piece of down to a bee. As Albert the land steward and all round nice guy, that picks up bees in the evening (we have had a cold snap)from in front of the hive, warms them up and puts them back in, and puts "Blankies" on his hives, I don't want to do it.

Again to assuage any ruffled feathers, let us all let this one die right here. No need to go any further on this theme.

Thanks,
Albert

PS: Craig, You sound just like me! lol!


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## Craig W. (Feb 26, 2006)

Barry, you also said something will happen to those who react as Jim has, also.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I'll repost my specific questions about attaching
down to bees, as someone seems to have gotten a 
tad over-ambitious with their editing.

</font>
Is this "attaching down to a bee" something
that anyone here has actually done themselves, 
or merely something heard about? No one quite
comes out and says that they have done it with
their own hands, but I'd love to hear how one
is expected to accomplish the task.</font>
When attaching down, how does one capture
the bee without equipment, and hold it while
attaching the down, all while avoiding a sting,
which would kill the bee? I can catch drones,
I can catch queens, but workers are a tad 
small for hand capture and handling without 
losing a significant percentage in the process.
How many bees are killed before one can be
used, on average?</font>
Where on the bee is the down attached, specifically?</font>
With what is the down attached, specifically?
How does one apply the adhesive? (Pine sap?
Come now, how does one apply pine sap to a bee?
Can we see a photo sequence of this process?
OK, I thought not.)</font>
Assuming that one has somehow attached the
down, how does one keep the bee in sight when 
the bee goes up above the tree canopy, leaving 
you below the tree canopy?</font>
How is a forager not yet "full up" continue
to forage with a bulky thing attached to it?
One would have to be very lucky to just happen
to capture a bee that is "full".</font>
How much time is spent following bees that
are not heading back to the hive, but are 
instead, still foraging? How does this compare
with the 30-seconds required to release a bee
and get a compass heading on its flight vector,
and then walk 3 minutes to release another bee
and get a 2nd compass heading?</font>
How does the "down" approach compare with
the known-harmless approach of sprinkling some
day-glo chalk on a bee while it is sucking up
nectar? How often does one actually follow 
one bee all the way to a hive, rather than
simply getting an idea of the general direction
of the hive, due to losing track of the bee?</font>
What is the overall efficiency of this 
approach in finding multiple colonies as 
contrasted/compared to a systematic "survey
approach" of the sort described here?
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000385;p=1#000010</font>
Claims are made about "sport" versus "food",
but aside from he generalized disparagement,
no claims are made that this approach is a fast
process. Would you like to set up a little 
"competition" at the next bee-lining workshop I 
lead? I've got $50 that I'll have any randomly-selected
attendee getting at least 3 good vectors to
the hive, and already standing at the hive before
an encumbered bee can be encumbered, and make
it back.</font>
> I've had the best luck looking for bees at 
> a water source and either tracking them or 
> converting them to foraging with some syrup. 

That takes even MORE time versus simply capturing
nectar/pollen foragers and letting them "fill up"
in a box. I'll agree that setting out a dish 
is a lost cause in a flow, but there are a lot
more nectar/pollen foragers per hive than water
foragers, and finding a hive's water sources
is difficult, and time consuming as compared
to simply gathering up whatever foraging bees
one sees about. (In fact, if one is lucky
enough to stumble upon a water source in use, 
these tend to be very close to the hive itself!)

Quicker and easier to capture any bee one sees
anywhere one finds it, as one can have a dozen 
in a box in a matter of a few minutes. Let 'em
tank up, let 'em go one at a time, and move a 
hundred yards or so between each (finding a 
clearing in which to release each).

So, while following individual bees around may
be a good way to get one's cardio workout, the 
decade of bee-lining I've done has taught me 
to use a compass or GPS to triangulate flight
vectors.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> 1. Is this "attaching down to a bee" something
that anyone here has actually done themselves,
or merely something heard about?

Yes. I've done it. Often? No. I not often have the time to do beelining.

> 2. When attaching down, how does one capture
the bee without equipment, and hold it while
attaching the down, all while avoiding a sting,
which would kill the bee? I can catch drones,
I can catch queens, but workers are a tad
small for hand capture and handling without
losing a significant percentage in the process.

Go to one of Marla Spivak's queen rearing workshops and she will teach you how to catch and mark workers. You catch them the same way you do a queen. You get stung sometimes.

> How many bees are killed before one can be
used, on average?

That depends on how good you are at catching workers by the throax between your fingers.

> 3. Where on the bee is the down attached, specifically?

I put it on the back of the abdomen.

> 4. With what is the down attached, specifically?

A drop of super glue is what I used. I think a drop of pine sap would work.

> How does one apply the adhesive? (Pine sap?

To the down. Then apply the down to the bee.

> Come now, how does one apply pine sap to a bee?

To the down. Then you apply the down to the bee.

> Can we see a photo sequence of this process?

It's not the time of year to be doing it and it would require, what I already lack for other things I want to document, a beekeeper that wants to take the pictures. I am not coordinated enough to catch a worker, glue a piece of down to it's back while operating a camera. 

> OK, I thought not.)

You usually don't.

> 5. Assuming that one has somehow attached the
down, how does one keep the bee in sight when
the bee goes up above the tree canopy, leaving
you below the tree canopy?

My point in doing the down is that my eyesight is not good enough to track them. Beelining is about lining bees. A bee with down need to be able to fly. If the down is too big for them to fly you have wasted your time. If they can fly, you now have the oportunity afforded by a larger and slower target to try to spot and line on. If you manage to match the size to the point that they can't fly well but can fly, perhaps you can track them. At least you have more time and a better chance.

> 6. How is a forager not yet "full up" continue
to forage with a bulky thing attached to it?

First you walk a creek on a hot day looking for bees. Then you try to convert some to forage by offering some syrup. Then you wait for them to recruit bees. Then you catch some of those and glue the down on them.

> One would have to be very lucky to just happen
to capture a bee that is "full".

Or arrange it.

> 7. How much time is spent following bees that
are not heading back to the hive, but are
instead, still foraging? How does this compare
with the 30-seconds required to release a bee
and get a compass heading on its flight vector,
and then walk 3 minutes to release another bee
and get a 2nd compass heading?

If your eyesite is good enough to do that, it would be faster. Mine is not.

> 8. How does the "down" approach compare with
the known-harmless approach of sprinkling some
day-glo chalk on a bee while it is sucking up
nectar?

They aren't big enough for me to see.

> How often does one actually follow
one bee all the way to a hive, rather than
simply getting an idea of the general direction
of the hive, due to losing track of the bee?

So far, I've always lost track of the bee. If I did it often enough perhaps I could match the size of the down to the bee well enough to follow that bee. I have not succeeded at that and really don't care. They point is I can track them far enough for an accurate line.

> 9. What is the overall efficiency of this
approach in finding multiple colonies as
contrasted/compared to a systematic "survey
approach" of the sort described here?

You question is irelevant. Do whatever approach you like. The point is to have a bee you can see.

> 10. Claims are made about "sport" versus "food",
but aside from he generalized disparagement,
no claims are made that this approach is a fast
process.

No. Just that it works for the hard of seeing.

> Would you like to set up a little
"competition" at the next bee-lining workshop I
lead?

No.

> I've got $50 that I'll have any randomly-selected
attendee getting at least 3 good vectors to
the hive, and already standing at the hive before
an encumbered bee can be encumbered, and make
it back.

Perhaps.

>That takes even MORE time versus simply capturing
nectar/pollen foragers and letting them "fill up"
in a box.

Either way you have to find a bee. If you take a walk up a creek you often find them on a hot day gathering water. You can mark them (with the dayglo chalk or catch them and paint them) and they return to the exact same spot. If you time them and if you can see them well enough for a vector you can calculate fairly accurately where the hive is without even converting them to foraging. If my eyesight was better that's what I'd do.

> I'll agree that setting out a dish
is a lost cause in a flow, but there are a lot
more nectar/pollen foragers per hive than water
foragers, and finding a hive's water sources
is difficult, and time consuming as compared
to simply gathering up whatever foraging bees
one sees about.

Not at all. A walk down a creek often reveals a lot of bees, especially on a hot day.

> (In fact, if one is lucky
enough to stumble upon a water source in use,
these tend to be very close to the hive itself!)

Making them even easier to find.

>Quicker and easier to capture any bee one sees
anywhere one finds it, as one can have a dozen
in a box in a matter of a few minutes. Let 'em
tank up, let 'em go one at a time, and move a
hundred yards or so between each (finding a
clearing in which to release each).

Have you tried the water method? I thought not.

I am certainly not saying your methods do not work. I'm not sure why you wish to claim that my methods, which you have never tried, do not work. 

[edit by mod]

[ January 29, 2007, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Barry ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It strains plausibility to
claim that a bee would somehow remain visible
along the entire flight back to then hive

I have never said they were visible along the entire flight back to the hive. As usual you read a lot into what people say which they did not say nor intend.

>This, combined with the ease with which you
claimed to be able to locate water sources for
hives, gave the impression that you were
repeating a tall tale told to you by others,
rather than relating any actual real-world
experiences. (Finding a water source is
tough, except perhaps where water is scare
in the first place.)

I find it more difficult to get them to come to syrup as bait than to find them at a water source. I have never said it was easy to find bees at all. I'm just saying that I've had better luck with finding them at water sources than any other method.

[edit by mod]

>I was saddened by your callous disregard for the
life of even one of God's little creatures, but
you seem to claim that if tree sap was used
(its not clear if you've ever used tree sap
yourself, despite my direct questions), the bee
survives.

No, I have not used tree sap. The super glue was handy. I know, and you know, that if I do a cut out on a tree a lot more than one worker is going to die in the process.

[edit by mod]

[ January 29, 2007, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: Barry ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I have never said they were visible along the
> entire flight back to the hive. 

OK then, perhaps you could be so kind as to 
explain exactly how attaching a feather to 
a bee helps, then. You said you had problems
seeing the bees, but maybe the actual problem
at hand is a lack of ability to transport bees
to clearings for release, where they are easier
to see?

I merely want to understand the exact process. 
I am in the middle of the first book on bee-lining
to be published since the WWII era, so I'd like to
pin down some specifics.

[Added 02/02/07 - Superglue... dries pretty fast,
so I guess I'll have to give this the Mythbuster
treatment (a la the TV show) to see if superglue
will even work on porous surfaces like feather
down and bee bodies]

[ February 02, 2007, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Jim Fischer ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>OK then, perhaps you could be so kind as to
explain exactly how attaching a feather to
a bee helps, then. You said you had problems
seeing the bees, but maybe the actual problem
at hand is a lack of ability to transport bees
to clearings for release, where they are easier
to see?

Perhaps your eyesight is better or even remarkable. Perhaps your methods are such as you can overcome a lack of good eyesight. I have not perfected a method to overcome it nor have I good enough eyesight. What it solves is two problems I have: 1) the bees are hard to see because they are fast. 2) the bees are hard to see because they are small.

[edit by mod]

>I merely want to understand the exact process.

Which I think I have been forthcoming in trying to answer.

If this is really about you being the better beeliner, I'm sure you probably are. I'm sure you have more practice. I've done it off and on when I wanted to find a bee tree over the last 30 years. I'm sure it's less than once a year. But here are the problems I faced when attempting it: 

_The books would say you could use syrup to get some bees, which did not work except in a dearth, while in a dearth or a flow there are always water foragers.

_Bees are too small to see very well.

_Bees are too fast to see very well.

The down makes them a larger silhouette and a slower target to follow.

I'm sure with your superior methods and skill from more frequent practice you don't have these problems. I, however, do. I suspect others do too.

[ January 29, 2007, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: Barry ]


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Okay friends, I've done my best to get this train back on track by removing everything that was not directly on topic.

Regards,
Barry


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## tony350i (Jul 29, 2005)

How bad was the edited bits Barry?  

Tony


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Thank you, Barry.


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## markalbob (Jan 31, 2007)

wow....nice Pi$$ing match....


*runs to corner to vomit


I plan on using both methods, and whatever else works within reason. I find the judgements in this thread more than a bit off-putting though. One guy asked a question. Several tried to answer. Soon this turned into outright sarcasm and incredibly judgemental snipping, at least from the stuff that made it through editing. To say nothing of whatever did not. 

For my 2 cents, as a newbie, even if I tried this a dozen times here and there during the summer, I highly doubt I'd kill as many bees gluing the feather as I will on my radiator from driving into work each day. Conversely, if I located a couple feral hives and was able to collect swarms and propogate these, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest there's a net return of well over the couple dozen workers I might kill......

Everyone can have their own opiinions, but there's a point where you pass what would be considered normal civility and it not only trivializes your point of view, but starts to potentially block others from their own opinions.....enough on my soapbox, I was just really surprised, and bummed, as a newbie reading this post.

Best of luck in finding the wild bees.


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## crazy hivan (Aug 17, 2006)

I have only kinda of tried this once. I found some bees hitting a bird bath with water. In my limited experiance I think a water source might bee the best because I,m assuming that bees are filling up and head straight back to the hive. I got one of those paint pens (pink) and marked a bee rump with a little dot. I then timed for round distance. I was amazed at how consistant the time was alittle over 9 minutes for the bee to come back. I timed at least 5 trips one afternoon.An did this on more than one occasion.On Sensei Bush's web site is a book with a graff which will give a range of distance to hive based on this flight time. I guess the next step would have been to capture several and follow, but i never did as thought what was I going to do if I did find them? It might just lead me to some ones hive, However there is a abandoned house in the general direction range they were going. Other observations I had from this is all bees left the bird bath and followed same path, at most I could see them for about 50 yards. also they flew higher than I expected about 50-60 feet in the air.

Bees a bird bath
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2882306410055760662hMsRcp

Good luck,

Stu


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## CWBees (May 11, 2006)

Jim Fischer said:


> (Betterbee sells them, my Dad makes them.
> They should have some "in stock" by the
> end of January.)


I looked at BetterBee's web sight and can't find the BeeLining box for sale.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I looked at BetterBee's web sight and can't find the BeeLining box for sale.

Me neither. I was going to buy one. Brushy Mt. used to have them but I don't see them there either.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Brushy Mountain was selling them, but decided to not bother 
including it in their 2007 catalog. They did not tell us until 
well after everyone's catalogs, including Betterbee's had gone 
to print. Betterbee expressed some interest, but I guess that 
interest was only cursory.

My dad, who makes the boxes, is happy to sell them direct to
beekeepers, so if you would like a beelining box, send me 
an e-mail at [email protected], and I will e-mail you
Dad's address so you can mail him a check.


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## Limey (Feb 10, 2007)

Hey Jim.. do you have a pic and price?


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