# Square Hives, 13 Frame Boxes, Big Hives, and Swarming



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I was reading this old issue of American Bee Journal and I found an interesting article on page 177.

http://books.google.com/books?id=MF...EwAA#v=onepage&q=american bee journal&f=false

I had considered square Langstroth hives before and wanted to try them. I already have a number of other configurations, 5-frame, 6-frame, 10-frame, 21-frame, and I've seen other larger versions as well. I'm wondering what effects a square, or by any means larger cavity would have on the bees, production, wintering, survival etc. At some point, someone mentioned that you can orient the frames perpendicular on successive levels and that might have some effect.

I already keep quite large hives year 'round even when such a configuration is unnecessary. I credit that decision for a distinct lack of swarming in my yards. There have been a couple of these old magazine articles which have credited large hives with little swarming and large honey crops. Add to that, Oscar Perone who seems to be communicating the idea that bees decide sometime in late winter how much they need to grow in order to swarm. Meanwhile, typical practice is to remove honey supers during winter and overwinter with the smallest hive feasible. What are your thoughts?

I realize there is a lot of information here, but give it your best shot. Tell me your experiences, your opinions, and your conjectures.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

they were square and deeper. If they had been practical they would still be used. bees did not winter well in them and it took superman to pick them up. also low resale value. everyone is always looking for greener grass.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Square has the benefit that you can orient the comb "warm way". The deeper 11 frame hives beeware is referring to is the Dadant hive. They became obsolete in the US because we are geared towards migratory operations and the smaller Langstroth hive ships more per truck.

The Jumbo Lang and Modified Dadant are both still popular in Europe, The second being the choice hive of Brother Adam and still in use at Buckfast Abbey to date.

As far as wintering; look up the DE hive from Canada. They were designed for superior wintering and that is accomplished with a square box that can be oriented cold way for maximum summer access and warm way for wintering.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

> If they had been practical they would still be used. bees did not winter well in them and it took superman to pick them up. also low  resale value.

Good I didn't know this when I built ten in 1979. You could fool me. Mine winter fine, lots of stores on those big brood combs, they have lasted 30 years so I don't care about the resale value, I am smart enough to work them without having to pick them up. 
Read Brother Adam's Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey. He test all available hives and concluded the square hive with 11 1/4" deep frames was best for him. For me, crops like this on them are not uncommon.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So how do you work them w/out taking off each super? They must be heavy when full.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I would do them in mediums. Not excessively heavy.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> So how do you work them w/out taking off each super? They must be heavy when full.


The medium honey supers full weigh about 50 lbs and the deep hives are not heavier than a lang double. I now have them permanently mounted on trailers and in the past kept them at permanent sites. Sure, they are not for someone who wants to meet commercial standardization, but they are a great unit for honey production. Add one piece of 1X4 on top of the honey supers and you can stack on regular Lang supers. Get strong labor and they can heft the occasional deep I draw comb in as a honey super.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

odfrank said:


> Good I didn't know this when I built ten in 1979. You could fool me. Mine winter fine, lots of stores on those big brood combs, they have lasted 30 years so I don't care about the resale value,


Sounds just like those crazy SC beekeepers assuming it's the cell size that's the cause of their success.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Solomon.... I have built a few 21 frame hives for ease in splitting hives in making nucs for sale. Since I'm not interested in honey, I don't use supers and the horizontal configeration makes it easier to find the queen since I am not taking off additional boxes each time I split. When I am preparing for making nucs, I find the queen, move her to where I want her, slide a queen excluder where I want to keep her out. Then when I get ready to split, I know where the queen is, and can manipulate the frames of brood, honey, just bees, for making nucs quickly. I use two commercial type tops, (no inner cover), that way not all of the frames are exposed.

At the end of the splitting season, I return them to regular singular deep or two deeps to go through the winter. I winter most in single deeps. In Kentucky, I don't have a problem wintering in one deep.

cchoganjr


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I think "standardization" is a detriment to US beekeeping. No other country in the world standardized around one hive. Hives should be selectable depending on the bee and what the beekeeper is trying to do. Could you imagine if, lets say, all cars were Ford Fiestas and all parts were interchangeable? It is ludicrous when we apply the principle to any other subject besides beehives.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I should have been more clear when I said they did not winter well. that is for upstate ny where they may be under 3 feet of snow and have few if any flights for 2-3 months.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have used the 21 frame hives in the past, but I have yet to see one survive winter. I have one in now, and it seems to be doing well thus far. Time will tell.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I can't think of any logical reason that the width of the box would have any impact on wintering ability? I thought everybody here subscribed to the "bees don't heat the box, just the cluster" philosophy


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

In the winter it is harder for the bees to move sideways vs up and down. has nothing to do with heating the hive.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Right; so how does adding three additional frames change that? If they are on 20 or 26 frames in two deeps it should have no impact on the amount of room they have to move up and down. Likewise if a person winters on mediums, 30 frames vs 39 frames should make no difference.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

beeware10 said:


> In the winter it is harder for the bees to move sideways vs up and down.


They have to move either way. Why is it harder one way verses the other? Aren't they fighting gravity trying to move up?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Think about it Barry. The path above is open, whereas the path to either side may be blocked by comb.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Well yes, thinking in terms as you put it, that would make sense, especially if it is a critical time when moving is "dangerous" due to temperature. Any other time shouldn't make a difference. I had a mental block thinking side to side on the same combs.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Bluegrass..... Barry... Don't they also say, that in horizontal hives, the bees often cluster in the center, then as cold weather approaches move toward one end. When they run out of honey on that end they starve because they think they are out of honey. In reality, the other end still has honey but they don't move back to it. I am not an expert on this, I have never tried to winter in 21 frame hives, but it could make sence.

cchoganjr


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

bluegrass said:


> I thought everybody here subscribed to the "bees don't heat the box, just the cluster" philosophy


Dead is dead. One that I lost was frozen in place near stores in the wide part, the other was frozen in place near stores in a deep stacked on the wide hive. Why they died, I do not have the greatest insight. But they are dead. In the current one, the cluster is right in the middle of the wide box. They seem to be doing fine so far. But they are also from a different source.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Bluegrass..... Barry... Don't they also say, that in horizontal hives, the bees often cluster in the center, then as cold weather approaches move toward one end.
> 
> cchoganjr


We are not discussing horizontal hives. A 13 frame box would be stacked, just like a 10 or 8 frame box... The additional frames should have no impact on wintering. 

As far as moving to honey stores. I am of the opinion that a good colony should not have to move at all, the stores they are clustered on should be a sufficient amount to bring them through the winter.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

bluegrass... I am missing something here. Are you saying you have 23 frames per box, and stack them just like a 10 or 8 frame box?? A two story box would have 46 frames??

If bees don't need to move to stores, why would you ever need anything but one chamber, and why would all the honey be gone from the bottom chamber, and a good deal,or all, gone in the second chamber (where the bees are) when winter ends?? Whether they need to move, would not that depend on the population of the colony. Very small colonies can be wintered in a nuc ( 5 frame), but a colony that goes into the winter with two 10 frame deeps full of bees, will need more honey. Obviously the population decreases during the winter months,as the queen cuts down on laying, but, they also live longer in winter than summer.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm really interested in talking about square hives, 13 frames, but it looks like it's morphed to long and combo long hives.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Solomon..Don't know that I ever saw a 13 frame square hive. Do you make your own frames? What about foundation for them. Do you know off the top of your head, the dimensions of the box. I might just build one tomorrow to see what it looks like. cchoganjr


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I think my gargantuan hives fit 13 - 1 3/8" wide frames and 14 - 1 1/4" frames. They are probably 20X20 with made 3/4" plywood. I learned from them not to make any frame deeper than you have an extractor to fit them in. My Brother Adam hives contain 12 frames and two 3/8" follower boards.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I don't build my own frames, but I do build my own boxes. I'm talking about basically the same thing odfrank is. They have the exact same dimensions as a standard lang hive, except for instead of the short side being 16 1/4", it's 19 7/8" the same as the long size. They take the same frames. When I get around to it, I'll make a set, all mediums.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> bluegrass... I am missing something here. Are you saying you have 23 frames per box, and stack them just like a 10 or 8 frame box?? A two story box would have 46 frames??


No, my finger miss-fired and hit 2 instead of 1


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

odfrank... Thanks...I wasn't thinking straight. I was visualizing something like 2 ft by 2 ft. Actually a 13 hive frame would be a square, wouldn't it. They would be very close to 19 13/16 by 19 13/16, and you could use standard deep or medium/shallow frames. Now I know I am going to make one tomorrow, and look at it.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

That's a good way to visualize it.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> If bees don't need to move to stores, why would you ever need anything but one chamber, and why would all the honey be gone from the bottom chamber, and a good deal,or all, gone in the second chamber (where the bees are) when winter ends?? Whether they need to move, would not that depend on the population of the colony. Very small colonies can be wintered in a nuc ( 5 frame), but a colony that goes into the winter with two 10 frame deeps full of bees, will need more honey. Obviously the population decreases during the winter months,as the queen cuts down on laying, but, they also live longer in winter than summer.


They don't need more than one chamber. Multiple brood chambers is a North American thing. In Europe hives are most often wintered in a single box.

I hope to regress all my winter clusters down to single boxes over the next few years. 

Brother Adam once wrote that a good colony would winter on 6 lbs of honey. That is a far cry from the 150 lb total hive weight most recommend to shoot for going into winter.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

bluegrass .. I agree. Recently someone wrote in a local publication, that you could not winter bees in single deeps in Kentucky. Sure glad I didn't know that, because I winter 85 to 100 each year in single hives. Last year for the first time, I wintered 3 in five frame nucs. One was a swarm on 6 October. Only swarm I have ever seen in October, in Kentucky. I gave them two deep frames honey and they made it just fine. This would seem to verify your conclusion above. This year I am trying to winter five in five frame nucs. 

Also I notice you edited the post above. Sorry, I should have caught that 23 was a typo and was really meant to be 13. As I stated above, I was thinking about a much larger box than a 13 frame square actually is. cchoganjr


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Here is a shot of my special 1X4 adapter boards I use on top of my square hives when I run out of square supers and have to stack on Lang size. Actually this looks like a 1X6 board. Sometimes I use a two incher on each side. The green box is a 9 5/8 converted to fit 11 1/4" frames being drawn out as a honey frames.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

This is a regular lang next to a Brother Adam hive.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Wow, that adapter board is fancy.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Solomon Parker said:


> Wow, that adapter board is fancy.


In 40 years of beekeeping I have designed numerous similar intricate items to facilitate production.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Square hives have been tried many times over the years with excellent results. The Hive and The Honey Bee at one time held an article supporting their use. Here are some of the reasons and arguments for and against.

A square box made to hold Langstroth size frames will hold 14 frames 1.25 inches wide. I strongly advise using this width, it resolves several of the wintering issues mentioned earlier.

A square box is much more stable on the base and less likely to be blown over in a storm. This also applies because each super holds a bit more honey and therefore the colony does not get as tall.

One significant problem with a square hive body is that there are problems with keeping the queen out of honey supers. You must work in a way to use queen excluders or other methods to prevent "queen in the honey super" excursions. This is not a problem in a major nectar flow, the bees keep the queen below by filling cells with nectar. But in a light flow, the queen will go straight up.

Brother Adam strongly felt that a single brood chamber was desirable because it meant fewer combs to be inspected to find a queen and fewer combs to handle for all other manipulations involving the brood nest. This is a huge advantage in my opinion. It greatly simplifies many operations involving colony management.

DarJones


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

The other point that hasn't been brought up yet is that winter clusters are supposed to be round. Round fits better in a square than a rectangle.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Post number one asked for theory and conjecture, here is mine, with a question thrown in for good measure. I agree with the above poster that a round cluster should fit in a square better than a rectangle.
I am really curious about others warm way/ cold way thoughts; Why would the British with their mild winters work out how to winter with the hive set up the cold way and Northern US beekeepers not? By making an entrance on the side of a standard lang this could be accomplished. 
Putting together what I've seen in other posts, and giving credit to those who I remember originating the ideas, I come up with this theory.
In a current thread Mike Palmer shows large colonies filling 10 frame boxes and says they are successful because the bees are in contact with all the frames at once, and thus should winter well. It seems that a square box would facilitate this concept even more easily. The trouble with large colonies is their ability to rear mites - Mel Disselkoen theory. If you accept that a smaller cluster in a cold climate has a harder time moving sidewise, because it has to move because it is in contact with fewer combs, then using the rising heat it generates to move up to a second set of combs makes sense. That is why I am interested in trying to overwinter the smaller colony, 2 colonies overwintering on a total of 20 frames gives me 2 chances of winter survival versus one in a standard double deep. 
Back to the square hive, the appealing thing to a short beekeeper (5'8") is if the bees are housed in 2 square boxes (26) frames is that you could run quite an unlimited broodnest in there without going tall. Mike Palmer runs his big colonies in three storey 10 frame hives. I can barely lift a single medium off a colony this tall without resorting to a ladder. One box shorter is a big deal to us little guys. Here endeth my ramblings.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Adrian:

Beeworks in Canada sells a Lang bottom board with a side entrance so comb would be oriented warm way. When Europe went with comb orientation we came up with slatted racks to accomplish the same thing. Now people winter with screened bottoms wide open so.....

Don't let Uk's mild winters fool you... They have much higher humidity which we all would agree is harder on the wintering colony than cold. But they do get temps down below Zero at times just like here.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

bluegrass...Yes, I figured that out after you edited the post. Sorry, you had me confused, and for some reason I just did not see that it should have been 13 frame not 23 frame. Sorry. cchoganjr


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## brushmouth (Jan 17, 2010)

Dr.C.L.Farrar (U. of WI) used square mediums, in his double queen system.
Purchased some of these squares a couple of years ago from a retired local beekeeper.
I got production with the system, but at a cost of more labor than I cared for. (re-TIRED)
Have tried warm comb placement and believe a detriment to ventilation in the summer months, unless rotated.(Don't want those girls running the fan, I want them gathering.) 
Although did see nice build up in the back with possibly earlier brood rearing with warm side placement.

I have also purchased several of Modified Dadant deeps, built Modified Buckfast deeps (square and deep) and regular depth but square brood boxes.
I like experimentation, however I will warn you in advance, all these sizes mixed is a nightmare.
Pick a size unless you are willing to live with having the wrong box at right time.:scratch:
Undecided as to size I prefer, but the deeper frames are one feature I like.
A frame of capped brood is a sight to behold.:thumbsup:

BM


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

British National hive is a "square" hive -- British National.

Here's a PDF document showing hives with metric and English dimensions.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

So they use about an 18" square hive while ours is about 16x20". And I'm wanting to try out a 20x20".

Which size exactly did Brother Adam use?


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## tsk (Nov 26, 2010)

I believe the 18 1/8" is the inner dimension and you are quoting the outer dimension so I think these are identical.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Solomon...TSK... I made a square deep today. I made all four sides the same as my regular deep lengths, 19 13/16. The lengths are interchangable with my regular lengths. The end box joints were cut the same, then cut the rabbet along the top. I assembled and then I filled it with new Kelly Frames. It will hold 13 frames, almost perfectly. To be perfect it probably needs about 1/8 inch filler at the end. But, with wax, and propolis on one or two frames, 13 is all that would go in it, without rolling bees when you remove it.. I hope to make photos and post them tomorrow. I am going to put bees in it the first chance in the Spring, and just see how they do. Of course it is going to require a new bottom board and a new top also.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

tsk said:


> I think these are identical.


 It's outside measurements both ways, so not quite. Plus British National hives have significantly smaller dimensions inside relative to the outside dimensions than Langstroths due to the inset of the body from the frame. Also due to the way the hives are made, the inside is not square, same as Langs.



Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I made a square deep today.


Fantastic. I ran out of wood and money, so it's going to be a little while. I look forward to hearing some updates.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Solomon..tsk... Others. Here is the link to my photobucket account. The first three photos are of the Square Hive I built today. As you can see it holds 13 frames almost perfectly. I made all four sides the same as a standard box,(19 13/16 outside measurement.) By the way, I made it with cypress. Pretty lumber. 

http://s841.photobucket.com/albums/zz339/cchoganjr/

cchoganjr


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The interior standard length of a Langstroth is 18 - 5/16. If you build the boxes square with those dimensions, you wind up with enough room for 14 frames at 1.25 inches wide.

DarJones


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Great pics Cleo.

A 13-14 frame medium is still still a bit lighter than a ten frame deep according to my calculations, am I wrong?

1.25*14=17.5 Sounds like a perfect fit to me.

Splitting a square hive up for mating nucs nets about 4 3-frame nucs, so that works too.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I just did some math and drew a few boxes in Sketchup.

If we assume a medium equals .66 deeps, and that a square medium equals 1.3 10 frame mediums, then each square medium approximately equals 0.858 10-frame deeps. 1.17 square mediums to the standard deep. So if I normally keep 5 deeps on a hive, the equivalent would be about six square mediums. At the same time, 5 deeps equals 7.5 regular mediums. Five deeps would be 48 inches tall. 6 mediums would be 40 inches tall. 

The reduction in height isn't that great, but since the hive is no longer narrower than it is long, the side to side stability increases dramatically.

Also, I discovered that three square mediums is actually a cube. Minimizing surface area.

Interesting stuff, to me anyway, but I'm an engineer.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> So they use about an 18" square hive while ours is about 16x20". And I'm wanting to try out a 20x20".
> 
> Which size exactly did Brother Adam use?


His were perfectly square, but he used Dadant depth frames.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

fusion power.... Soloman... I went back to the wood shop and measured mine. Inside length is 18 5/16 (18.3125) both ways. Standard Langstroth. However, 14 of Walter Kelly's frames will not go in the box. Not even close. Their top bar is 1.125 ( 1 1/8), However their side bars extend beyond the top bar and measures 1 3/8. (1.375) So no way that 14 at 1.375 = 19.25 and the inside measurement is 18.3125. If you put 13 in the hive, 13 times 1.375 equals 17.875. That leaves only .43 for the 14th frame and it needs 1.375. So only 13 of Walter Kelly's frames will go in the standard Langstroth inside of 18 5/16. 

If you want 14 frames, and you use Walter Kelly Frames, you will need to increase the inside measurement to 19 1/4, and that would be a perfect fit with no propolis, burr comb, etc. A very tight fit. I suspect 13 is all you will get in there.

Look at the photos I posted on photobucket. The frame sidebars are touching and with 13 in the box the is only about 1/8 inch left. The 14th would not even start to go in.

I am not an engineer or cabinet maker either for that matter, but, I do love to make bee boxes.

cchoganjr


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Cleo, narrow frames are 1.25 on the end bars. So 14 of them is 17.5".


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

That makes sense. I don't have narrow frames. I was using Kelly's. Yes, 14 narrow frames at 1.25 on the end bars will go in a 18 5/16 box, but only 13 of Kelly's will go.

There is another thread on this forum that says Kelly is considering offering the 1.25 frames.

cchoganjr


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I use 12 frames and two follower boards. My frames get so propolized that 12 often fill the box up fine with only one follower.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

odfrank... Yes that was my concern with 13. May be hard to get them out.

My only other concern is not having anything else in the yards that will interchange, ( bottom boards, tops, supers, etc. Maybe that is why people use the retangular boxes.

cchoganjr


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## forgeblast (Feb 4, 2011)

What about a warre type design?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I believe the big problem here would be extraction and movement. In warre hives you don't have the frame and wired frames to take extraction and movement. I believe warre hives would be more for hobbiest.

cchoganjr


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## forgeblast (Feb 4, 2011)

There is always the possiblilty of using 1/2 frames (come down 6'' on each side) this allows inspection if needed. http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9945 
at http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10720 a person posted I am also thinking about constructing a wooden honey extractor to extract honey from frameless topbar combs. There has been such an extractor in use after WWII in Germany
there are pictures of it at the link I provided. 
With movement do you mean moving the hives from place to place? or the movement of the extractor? Thanks.
http://translate.google.com/transla...layout=2&eotf=1&u=http://www.ruche-warre.com/
shows the french commercial outfit. Sorry for the edit I was looking for the link.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I guess I need to bow out of this discussion. I have never seen a Warre Hive. But without frames, and wiring, or pins in some instances, it just looks like the comb would be subject to breakage if you moved the hive from place to place. cchoganjr


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

Without all of the "best size of box", frames & frame moving, queen finding, making the hive smaller for winter..... Just how in the world do those bees survive on their own? I am not being sarcastic either. I am just so puzzled. All of these great hive designs, all of the studies, all of the experienced beekeepers around.....It would seem to me, it should be much simpler. How can they live in a tree full of comb that is never moved around so they can get to the stores, and the lid never propped open in the winter but starve through the winter in a custom built house? 

My friends, that is what I am searching for. I have been doing this just a short while, about 3 or 4 years. It is overwhelming at times. What should a fella do? Seems to me that everything works, but then again it doesnt. How can a guy keep bees like they keep their selves? Surely they are doing something in nature to survive the winter that someone isnt seeing. Or maybe its been seen but ignored.... 

LOL....I am just confused..... 

Rob


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If we kept bees the same way bees live in nature, we'd get precisely the exact same amount of honey we get from them when they live in nature. None.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Solomon Parker is correct, colonies ensconced in a hollow tree or even in a void in the wall of a building and left alone so they are never manipulated, may very well be living and surviving in optimum conditions (or not), but other than pollination in a 2-3 mile radius, won't likely provide anything else useful to humans. In order to harvest honey, combs must be manipulated, either crudely (pulling chunks of honey-filled comb out), or by honey-supering and removing the honey-super once it contains honey. That is the objective the Warré hive appears to have, to provide a "hive" in an almost natural configuration, yet provide "honey-supers" that permit harvesting of honey with the least disturbance to the remainder of the nest.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Rob
You live in prime feral bee country. But for every colony you find in a wall or tree that has survived a winter or two.... hundreds of others didn't make it. Nature chooses the survivor and they are fewer and farther between then if we have bees in a box and feed and nurture them. 

On the flip side our manipulations can also be detrimental to their survival, you just have to find the balance.


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

Well, there may never be a best way to balance the good and the bad. Someday, maybe I will be all balanced out. Either way, I love working with bees.  

Rob


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Solomon, odfrank, bluegrass.. others.. Last week I acquired about 600 ft cottonwood, free. All I had to do was move it. 10 ft boards, planed two sides to 7/8 inch. Been strip stacked, air dryed, for about 10 years. Man was moving, and just wanted it gone, so I stacked it in my barn. I had never heard of cottonwood, apparently there is very little in Kentucky. Locals I talked to say it is worthless, but, I went on two woodworking forums, and they say with today's paint, cottonwood is good for decks, storage buildings, wood fences, etc. Long story short, I made three 5 frame Nucs and I am going to paint them and see how they do next year. 

With the discussion on the square hive in this forum, today, I made a square hive out of the cottonwood. Will try to get photos of it, and post on photobucket tonight.

Has anyone had experience with cottonwood use. The main con in the woodworking forums seems to be fuzzing when planed, or sawed. I did not have that problem. Maybe my knives are sharp, but it is glass smooth, very hard, pretty wood. It can stay stacked until I do something with it, didn't take that long to move it, the man lives 2 houses up from me.

Any comments. cchoganjr


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

t: I knew God made cottonwood for something besides stoping up my AC unit and I have heard of it being used for pallets.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Honeyman 46408.. Guess I should have started a new thread. I put it here because we were talking about Square Hives, and that is what I made. Sorry. I will move it. Planning on using it next Spring. Thanks. I went ahead and made the photos this morning. Here is the link to my photobucket acct. The first two photos are the Cottonwood Square Hive.

Yes, the forums stated that it is used for pallets, flooring on lowboy trailers,( apparently it bends before it breaks), and other things. Sorry. I will move it. 

http://s841.photobucket.com/albums/zz339/cchoganjr/

cchoganjr


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> I'm really interested in talking about square hives, 13 frames, but it looks like it's morphed to long and combo long hives.


I am building a 13 frame square hive that is a deep and medium (Langstroth) in height. Plan to use shallow frames for supers!

I have been reading Brother Adam, Frank C. Pellett and C.P. Dadant writings, I like their practice & philosophy.

I have an interest in your hive and findings for you region?

Charles


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

rail said:


> I am building a 13 frame square hive that is a deep and medium (Langstroth) in height. Plan to use shallow frames for supers!


I suggest a deep and medium with a medium super or a deep and shallow with a shallow super to make for more interchangeability. Or does the the brood chamber a very deep frame?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Picture for Solomon. A square hive with 13 1 1/4" wide frames, small cell.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

odfrank said:


> I suggest a deep and medium with a medium super or a deep and shallow with a shallow super to make for more interchangeability. Or does the the brood chamber a very deep frame?


The brood frame is very deep (comb area of a deep and medium). Inside frame height is 13".

In my region the common overwinter hive is a deep and medium. I wanted one chamber for brood and stores.

What are your thoughts on this size of large frame for brood chamber?

Charles


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

rail said:


> What are your thoughts on this size of large frame for brood chamber? Charles


It is a good size for brood and stores in one box. The problem I found with large frames is that there is no way to extract them, they won't fit in a common extractor. Keep the box size narrow to force stores up into the supers where you can remove them if not needed. I removed all excess honey from my gargantuan hives yesterday, I converted the peripheral frames to foundationless early on to be able to empty the box of excess honey. See pics:
http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t7/odfrank/Garantuan BroodChambers/2011 Harvest/#!cpZZ1QQtppZZ16


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

odfrank said:


> Keep the box size narrow to force stores up into the supers where you can remove them if not needed.


Would I receive better results with the 11 1/4" frame, as Dadant and Brother Adam used?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

rail said:


> Would I receive better results with the 11 1/4" frame, as Dadant and Brother Adam used?


Yes, I think so, better than your oddball size. I have been running about 35 hives with that depth frame both ten and twelve frame wide for many years. I like the one box inspection, a good size here, I don't need winter stores. I have a 20 frame Dadant extractor that will fit four frames. I visited Brother Adam in 1978 and came home a built ten hives to his specs and still run them today. The big stacks on hives stay lower. I like a double lang for easy splitting when re-queenng or making divides.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

odfrank said:


> I like a double lang for easy splitting when re-queenng or making divides.


Is your double lang; 20 frames with 11 1/4" frame depth?

What depth should the boxes be for the Dadant or Jumbo Lang; 11 5/8" or 11 3/4"?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

rail said:


> Is your double lang; 20 frames with 11 1/4" frame depth?What depth should the boxes be for the Dadant or Jumbo Lang; 11 5/8" or 11 3/4"?


My doubles are the common 9 5/8" deep boxes. For 11 1/4" frames you could use either 11 5/8" or 11/ 3/4", my 33 year old boxes shrank a long time ago down to where I added a 3/8" strip to the bottom. I was able to buy the 11 1/4" frames from Rossman last year and the 10 5/8" foundation has always been available from Dadant. I have found that a single brood chamber works well in both the 10 and 12 frame width with the 11 1/4" deep frames.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

odfrank said:


> Picture for Solomon. A square hive with 13 1 1/4" wide frames, small cell.


Can you tell a difference in the hives (bees health and production) with small cell and 1 1/4" spacing?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm just about to pull the trigger and build what I'm calling 'cube hives.' I call them that because it just so happens that when you take three square medium boxes and stack them up, their volume forms an almost perfect cube. It's also equivalent to about 2.5 deeps which should be just fine for wintering in most places. I think if I figure things out just right, I can cut 6 sides out of each 10' board and have just about nothing left over. A little more efficient than normal Langs.

The only other problem to figure out is how to get some bees on mediums. All mine are on deeps right now. I only have three medium boxes and one six frame medium nuc at the moment, all unoccupied.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

rail said:


> Can you tell a difference in the hives (bees health and production) with small cell and 1 1/4" spacing?


No, both died from our winter die offs last year, both were re-filled with large baited swarms, both are alive this year, the LC on regular spacing is substantially stronger and is the only one that has ever worked up from its giant brood chamber into a honey super. Time will tell if SC is a hoax or not. I in six years see no evidence of it's superiority and I have had several side by side comparisons. Our winter die offs make any experimentation comparisons difficult, it is an equal opportunity killer.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Solomon Parker said:


> I'm just about to pull the trigger and build what I'm calling 'cube hives.' I call them that because it just so happens that when you take three square medium boxes and stack them up, their volume forms an almost perfect cube.


That should be a versatile hive. I have extras and should set one up, but I avoid using mediums for brood because I am a deep frame type of guy. My square Gargantuans have taught me that a very deep frame is a nuisance here, too much honey in it that can not be accessed for harvest.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

odfrank said:


> I have found that a single brood chamber works well in both the 10 and 12 frame width with the 11 1/4" deep frames.


Received the 11 1/4" frames from Rossman, working on a ten frame Langstroth Jumbo brood chamber. Have you used or seen an eight frame Langstroth Jumbo?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

rail said:


> Have you used or seen an eight frame Langstroth Jumbo?


I have not. I have made boxes for those frames by combining two sawed down mediums. A stacked medium and shallow would also work with a bit of trimming.


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## Cyclex (Feb 7, 2012)

Where do you find the extra deep frames for the Brother Adam size beehive?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Cyclex said:


> Where do you find the extra deep frames for the Brother Adam size beehive?


11 1/4" frames available from Rossman, 10 5/8" foundation from Dadant. I just foundationed 25 frames using one sheet each per frame of pre 1985 vintage 5 5/8" and 5/14" foundation, overlaping about 1/4". I now have brood comb from foundation pre-dating fluvinate and comphoshomous (sp).


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

Cyclex said:


> Where do you find the extra deep frames for the Brother Adam size beehive?


Did you find any Jumbo frames?


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## psisk (Jul 21, 2011)

Do top bar hives not move sideways and also survive?????


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