# To Mark a Queen or Not to Mark



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm looking for some feedback from those folks that have gone against the traditional recommendations of Marking Virgin Queens. 

I've read a few posts on here that has indicated that some people DO indeed mark the virgin queens prior to putting them into mating NUC's. Which also means they are allowing them to emerge in an incubator. 

So I've a couple simple questions for those that have and do currently practice this method.

*What is your return rate from the queens from mating flights?

How many do you do this way normally in a season*?
I can see the upside to doing things this way and would like to incorporate it into my own methods but only if it's actually working for people.

So please tell me of your triumphs...


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Most don't mark virgins. Some do. I mark virgins when its critical that I can trace the genetics from cell to mated queen. For me, routine production queens get marked after they are mated. I don't think the percent of success varies much either way. I should mention that I only mark virgins that emerge in an incubator. I never catch virgins out of a nuc for marking.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I mark as soon as they are hatched. My return on my marked virgins is exactly the same as placed cells, which is very high. I usually get almost 100% returns..

Truthfully, even if I noticed slightly less return on marked virgins, I would still do it. The time it saves me from looking for queens is more than substantial. But I see no reduced rate what so ever.
I have a lot of 5 frame half sized deeps as mating nucs, but also have quite a few larger standard nucs I also use for mating nucs for about half the summer. Those more highly populated nucs are really the ones I need the marked virgins in. But strong mating nucs really produce some nice queens.

What reduces my return rate over all is, I generally get 1 _batch_ of poor returns each season. Not sure why. Not apparently weather related. Not batch related or cell VS virgin related. My worst return this year was cells and virgins placed On the Summer solstice, June 21. I thought that was strange. Cells and virgins from two different batches-different breeders. Cells and virgins from the same batchs placed a couple days earlier or a couple days later had a normal high return rate. Could it have been related some how to the day length? You wouldn't think so, but I never did determine the cause. 

I also got one failed return on almost my entire last batch from my favorite breeder queen this year too. About 80% all the cells hatched in the nucs and virgins placed failed. The virgins looked beautiful. Looking at their photos I see nothing wrong with them. But this was so strange, I figured the breeder queen, who was a 2012 model, must be running out of gas. Once I realized there was a problem, (which was about 3 1/2 weeks after grafting) I checked her hive, hoping I wouldn't find it filled with drone brood. It looked frantastic... lots of eggs and larva and a bit of newly capped brood. My marked queen was gone and they had already superceded her. Why her last batch failed I have no clue. But something was apparently lacking there.

Marking virgins saves me a tremendous amount of time and I see no down sides to it what so ever.

Now, marking with a _disk_ as a virgin is no good. The monkey on her back is too big and she won't get mated well. Disk marked virgins have a slightly shorter abdomen and are ususlly superceded in their first season.












I disk mark them after mating, they are laying well and have regained good size. I keep her in a roller cage sitting on the top bars or better yet, on the screened inner cover for an hour or two before letting her lose. Let the glue dry throughly so they don't peel off the disk or ball her because of strange glue smell. I also clip a wing. Every season I have one or two queens get away from me. My customers sometimes like to direct release their queens after a couple days. They are really bummed when they fly off. Even a very large queen, when young still has that wing strength and can still fly.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Astrobee, Lauri - You've both been great help here. I know witch way I'm going to swing with this now. Going to take Lauri's approach to this. Saves so much time I would think, not to mention getting stung on the fingers more then necessary. lol.. 

Lauri - How long after the virgin's have emerged do you wait till marking them? As well how long till you introduce them to a mating nuc?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

In fact my favorite way to requeen a larger colony is to use a marked virgin queen.

I remove the established queen from the colony and let them sit queenless about 5-6 days. Let them make all the queen cells they want and cap them (or close to it.) Then take off the lid and direct release a marked virgin queen through the hole in the inner cover. She'll go through the hive and destroy all the started queen cells. Unlike humans, she won't miss _any_ started cells. I have 100% success return with this method. I use to also place a capped queen cell along with the virgin queen in case they didn't accept her, but the marked virgin comes out the winner every time, so it soon became apparent it was just a waste of a good cell.

If you want to see an older tired colony grab a gear, try this method of requeening. Probably too late to try now though. Depends on your area. 

The colony gets a _good_ brood break-no overlapping capped brood- but isn't queenless quite as long as a walk away method and you control the genetics.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I mark then as soon as I see they've hatched. 
They are a bit furry, that's why you see such irregular marks..A dab, dab, dab to get through the hair makes for a jagged mark. Only reallly noticable in close up photos though. 

I usually do 3-4 batches of cells a week spring and summer, that gives me cells &/or virgins in the incubator & in the cell builder hives at all times for placement. I don't bank my queens so this allows me to place a cell or virgin in the mating nuc immediatly each time I remove mated queens for an order. 

I have done tests with the virgins as far as longevity in the incubator & feeds to see how long they are viable. But they are usually placed within 3 days of hatching.

This fall I had some extra virgins I couldn't place so they were held in the incubator for several days, then on my kitchen counter for several more. At day 12, About August 27th, I found a couple mating nucs that were not only queenless but had developed laying workers. A great test for those virgins. Older virgins, late in the summer and beyond ugly comb. While a laying worker colony will usually ball a direct released virgin, they were surprisingly acceptive of her. We'll see how they fare.

I did also recently had a virgin I placed in a nuc I forgot to release. 10 days later, when I checked for a return I was horrified to see she was still in her cage. Yikes
I released her and she is back,mated & laying and has good capped brood. She has good size and looks like she made her window just fine.

Looks like August mating quality is still good in my area, at least as far as healthy drone populations goes. I feed lots of protein in late sumemr, so hives don't evict drones until early winter..if at all. I see them in the large hives late October when I make my last checks. Who knows when or if they ever get kicked out.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Lauri said:


> In fact my favorite way to requeen a larger colony is to use a marked virgin queen.
> 
> I remove the established queen from the colony and let them sit queenless about 5-6 days. Let them make all the queen cells they want and cap them (or close to it.) Then take off the lid and direct release a marked virgin queen through the hole in the inner cover. She'll go through the hive and destroy all the started queen cells. I have 100% success return with this method. I use to also place a capped queen cell along with the virgin queen in case they didn't accept her, but the marked virgin comes out the winner every time, sapparent it was just a waste of a good cell.
> 
> ...


Lauri - How did you figure out when to stop rearing queens? I know you have to have good drone saturation, and time to build up in the colony for winter. Is there anything else that makes you stop rearing at a certain point each year before the drones get kicked out?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

It's the need to leave the mating nucs queenright so they build well for winter that stops me.

I overwinter most of my mating nucs in place-so I need to let them remain queenright at a certain point by late summer to build for decent population & stores. Any late August/September queen rearing pretty much eliminates overwintering of _those_ mating nucs. I only place late virgins and cells in mating nucs that had no real chance of building for winter and will eventually combine them with others. 

Also want to let my queenless cell builders finally have a queen of their own and grow for overwintering.
I give the cell builders a premium mated queen. It is just about the _only_ time I ever introduce a mated queens at my place. I select a few queens that have really imprssed me in the mating nucs and give them to these colonies that have nothing to do but _cherish_ a queen of their own. They are full of new brood in no time, and go into winter in great shape.

The call for mated queen is quite reduced by August with only a few scraggler orders coming in. It's too hot to ship the month of August so my only sales are local.
Any queens that don't sell by mid September will be banked and their mating nucs combined with others that can use the strength. I've actually never banked before, but I'm going to give it a shot for those Really late desperate customers that are determined to save a colony at that late date. I'll sell them one if they've squished their queen but the colony is strong. I'll talk them out of spending the money if the colony is problematic for unknown reasons. No sense throwing good money after bad. Banking is the only way I can have Sept/Oct. mated queens available.
I always get a few fall calls.. 

At that point, I'm not about to take a mated queen out of a nuc that is prime for overwitnering.

Overwintering the mating nucs in place saves me a tremendous amount of work in spring.. It also gives me lots of overwintered queens to make up early sale nucs. 
I overwintered about 40 last year. Am doing about 100 this year.

Here you see divided deeps on benches that will overwinter, smaller nucs hanging on the fence that will be combined here and there after the queens are removed..










I also have about 75 of these 8 frame deeps primed to overwinter that started out as 'mating nucs'. Whoops


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Lauri, re post #5. How old is the marked virgin you put in? Does it matter? Thanks.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Great thread.......... G......


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The reason I stopped marking virgins when I happened to see them is that they often fly off and sometimes they don't come back. Better to wait until they are laying and less likely to fly.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Lauri, re post #5. How old is the marked virgin you put in? Does it matter? Thanks.


When the queens first hatch, they are ususlly a bit blurry eyed. They are quite delicate at that time and if not fed immediatly will die within hours.
But if a little care is given, it isn't long before they are quite robust. 

A newly hatched queen, when direct released will walk carefully out onto the frames, sometimes curling up her abdomen slighly in a submissive behavior as the bees investigate her. A 2 or 3 day old virgin will strut right out into the crowd of bees like she owns the place.

In the case of the large hive setting where there are queen cells to tear down, I would place a mature and confident virgin if possible. She's all about the business of heading the hive.

I'm a little more careful when placing virgins that are really mature..3-6 days old or older. They are ready to fly. Get your inner cover on ASAP so she doesn't come up and out and make her break without orienting to the hive.
That's one of the reasons I will sometimes direct release through the hole in the inner cover. She's corraled better & I can cover it up fast if needed. 

They Usually go right down between the frames where it's dark. It's the occasional virgin that's frisky that will leave you hanging your head if you are not careful. 
inch:

In reference to my post on #5, it's importaint to leave the hive queenless long enough so the cells built are large enough the _virgin recognizes them as a threat_. 

If you give them only a 24-48 hour queenless period, newly started queen cells may be overlooked. That is a good way to lose a virgin. That cell will continue to grow while the virgin is out getting mated. After mating she will lose her kill instinct for the most part. When that queen cell hatches, it will kill your newly mated queen. 
A queenless period of 5-7 days ( or longer) is best. That's a week shorter than a walk away method, and a week longer than immediatly placing a cell with no queenless period.
The advantage is, besides controling your genetics is:
You have a longer truly effective brood break for mite control & other issues that are generally cleared up by a brood break, but the hive is not broodless for such a long period of time as a self requeening. 

If placeing a capped queen cell immediatly upon removing the existing queen you may have a slight overlap in capped brood, resulting in a poor if any real brood break when mites still have a place to hide.
If you have a failed return spring with a walk away nuc method, you have little time to rectify before laying workers _quickly_ develop.

The method in post #5 improves the timing on both methods for a happy medium and generally more efficient results.

Did I mention how easy it is? Especially in a very large hive it is almost effortless in comparison to other methods. You can't install a mated queen without checking throughly for started queen cells. This way, the virgin does it for you. The risk of a failed returned virgin is no more than the risk of rejection of a mated queen.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Lauri, thanks. I can see the advantages in this system.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Lauri - Just wanted to say thank you for explaining things in great detail here. You've actually helped me greatly to decide which way I'm going to go with my operation next year. Which means that I've got lots of work to do this winter. lol.. Love your photos by the way, some really great looking queens there!


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## kramerbryan (Oct 30, 2013)

I must say Lauri I admire your style. Your posts have helped me this year and I appreciate the way you explain the reason for what you do. The fact that you are so close makes it helpful to see what you are doing, the NW perspective.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't mark my queens until after they are laying. The reason being that they are hatched inside
the nucs and not inside an incubator. So rather than disrupting their scent that the worker bees might
ball on her and the fact that I don't know what is the return on successful mating yet, I just leave everything
alone until after her mating and laying. Less disruption is better I think. After 2 weeks of laying then I will
mark her. Usually she will not be going anywhere trying to lay as much as she can on the comb to get the nuc going.
By that time she is too fat and slow so I can catch her easily whereas a virgin will run too fast and fly off too when
I tried to catch her. It had happened before. But so far I have 100% success on the return mating flight. So I prefer to mark them later rather than earlier.
Could it be that in certain season like the Fall that the birds will get the marked virgins more so than other season say Summer? It is interesting to know.


Too big and fat to run off:


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Another informative post by Lauri with lots of photos and great detail. 

Lauri should have her own sub-forum.


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