# supercedure cell in split



## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

I did a split 3 weeks ago and moved the queen and all open brood and lots of honey and pollen into a new hive box, 10 frame deep, i checked on them last week and they were drawing comb quickly and every brood comb had eggs larva or capped brood not a cell was empty and very nice patern, 
i checked yesterday again and decided to add a second deep as it was getting around 80% full and 90% drawn except for a drone comb that was just started but they were making comb on the outer cover, i pulled a frame to take a look and found a superceduce cup with an egg in it.

my question is if this queen who is only 1.5 years old is laying so well why are they superceding her and should i make another split and have a nuc with the old queen in it?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds like the safe plan. May be left over from split, but when I argue with them about queen quality I lose.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

I've always gotten excellent queens from supercedure cells! I won't argue with you:applause:


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

Saltybee said:


> Sounds like the safe plan. May be left over from split, but when I argue with them about queen quality I lose.


I dont think it is left from the split as it is only an egg still and my queenless hive from the split has eggs in it now, also doing great laying full frames in both deeps.

should i try for a split or should i allow the supercedure to happen? running low on equipment already going to have to start making boxes and assembling frames.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Your original hive is queenright? I would leave some eggs behind when moving the queen to a new split.
When I said leftover from the split I meant the bees may blame the queen for the disruption, not unlike the quick superceder of a queen in a package.

Good pattern is not proof that the old queen is not failing. If you are going to let the superceder happen, and I would, moving the old queen to a backup nuc is a safety net. 

If you are ready to add a 2nd deep you could put an excluder between the deeps and keep the queen on one side and brood combs and cell on the other. That is an alternate to complete split.


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## happyflorencebees (May 1, 2014)

I just made this kind of split yesterday. I installed a new Buckfast queen mid-May, but the bees began making swarm cells about a week later. I opened the brood nest (controversial, I know, but there it is) and removed the queen cells after making sure the queen was still there. I hoped I could change their minds, but of course it didn't. So, I made a cut-down split. I'm hoping that works and that the queen the old hive raises won't produce angry bees. I've not had good luck with that here in Central Texas. I also hope the new hive will settle down and stay put.


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

yes the original hive now has a laying queen, i did the split when i found a nearly capped queen cell. after doing some reading it sounds like i should just let the supercedure happen not much of a loss in brood and building up because the old queen will keep laying until the new one takes over and i get a good new queen.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

The lifespan of the old queen is not a given. It is not a given that she will stay alive until the new queen is laying. It is not a guarantee that the new queen will mate and make it back to lay. The safest way is to park the old queen in a separate hive of some sort. Little more complicated but safer.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

spreerider said:


> my question is if this queen who is only 1.5 years old is laying so well why are they superceding her and should i make another split and have a nuc with the old queen in it?


They are superceding because she's a year and a half old, and with the flow going now, it's the best time to raise a new queen. The flow in the Campbell River area ramped up last Thursday, you can see it here:-

http://www.rozeware.com/hives

I am expecting some of my colonies to start superceding soon too.


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

yep with this rain i expect the clover to really start flowing here so it should be good, thanks everyone


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

I checked all 4 hives today and found that the 2 new ones are queenright and growing fast going to need to add a super to one and another deep to another.
Both the parent hives are totally queenless though, one (hive B) has no brood at all and the other (hive A) has a couple frames of capped and some uncapped drones that are about to be capped. two weeks ago hive A had a queen and eggs etc and she was laying really good but must have swarmed?
Hive B had queen cells hatching 2 weeks ago when i checked so i put everything back, there was probably 6 cells all the same age at that time.

Should i add frames of open brood from the nucs or should i recombine, the nucs are 8 frames full and the other is around 14 frames filled.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Hive B is within the window of hatching/ prior to laying time frame. Adding a frame with eggs/larva is a good check, if they are queenless they will start cells.

Hive A; swarming is a possibility if everything else fits. Taking a split off reduced that possibility and there would normally have been other QCs in the hive. If true then situation is the same as Hive B. True or not I would add a frame and see what they do.
Only capped drone raises the laying workers flag, myself I would give the frame and a little more time unless you see definitive LW signs.

Recombining seems a little too drastic this soon, you can always do that.


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## AppleJack (Mar 2, 2014)

How can you tell they are supercedure cells and not swarm cells?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

AppleJack said:


> How can you tell they are supercedure cells and not swarm cells?


Ask a bee! 
You really can not for sure. Here is a discussion;http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

ok after work i am going to add a frame to each hive from their nucs, hopefully they make a queen if not maybe i should go queen shopping if anyone around me has any they can sell.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

If they do not start in hive B then they most likely have a queen that has not started laying yet. Adding a queen if they do not start cells would probably be a step backwards.

Hive A is a little ambiguous because of the drone cells. Drones take longer and may simply the tail end of the last eggs. Starting cells is pretty definitive; 99% queenless, not starting cells is open to question, young queen or LW. Then it is time for a very close exam of frames looking for eggs and how they are laid.

Taking an empty brood frame from A or B and placing it in the nuc where you remove the brood will get you eggs for next week without slowing down the nuc. It is raising the brood that takes resources, eggs are cheap.


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

i had found a nearly capped queen cell in one of the nucs so i put it in hive B left it for a while and when i checked that cell had hatched and i found a few eggs and the queen.
hive A i put a frame with eggs and they raised them all to be workers, checked lower down and found some young larva so there is a queen as well and found a open queen cell in the bottom stuck to the wall of the hive not on a frame so she must have hatched from that one and i missed it.

all my hives are queen right and i am right in the middle of the clover flow which is doing great this year, keeps raining for a day or two and the clover is not getting dryed out


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