# Four Very Difficult Steps to Healthier Bees



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Lets look at this slide show and dissect it slide by slide and see how true or how misleading it actually is.


Should be simple enough so even my Mom-In-Law can do this.

*Four Simple Steps *
No Treatments
Breeding Local Survivors
Natural Food
Natural Comb

*Four Simple Steps to Healthier Bees By Michael Bush Copyright 2008*





Four Simple Steps to Healthier Bees By Michael Bush Copyright ppt download


Presentations online Before you take copious notes, all these presentations are online here:



slideplayer.com


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## Akademee (Apr 5, 2020)

Simple, sure, but certainly not easy


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Akademee said:


> Simple, sure, but certainly not easy


I like what you say, Akademee.
See the thread title.

But if read Michael Bush it sounds as if - *Simple + Lazy = Easy*
Those are the key words that stick.


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## adrock (Mar 19, 2021)

Telling us to go all natural with everything. Feed, cell size, mite treatments(none). But aren’t we still keeping a creature in an unnatural “house” in an
Unnatural region and environment. At this point in selective breeding can we even say the bees are “natural”? I do like what the slide show is saying to a point but my opinion is that, as with everything, moderation and a healthy mix of man’s input can be a good thing. My opinion only.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

This is digressing quickly!


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Slides 5-10 - MB thesis: gut microflora is disrupted by Fumidil (and by extension all other interventions). 
Response: Knowledge of gut microflora has advanced with DNA fingerprinting since these slides were prepared. 1) Gut microflora is quickly self-repairing, and 2) Very contingent on local forage and random occupancy. Long term disruption or even the optimal mix of micro-organisms is not demonstrated.
Slide 11-12 MB thesis: treating selectively advantages "weak" bees, and disadvantages the selection for of hypo-virulence in the virus-parasite system.
Response: selection for hypo-virulence (the "peaceable kingdom" postulate) is not observed in diseases with a horizontal mode of spread (see human typhus). Postulated hypovirulence in Brazilian island colonies has been revised by Dr. Martin to actually be random failure of virulent virus to establish in a small population.
Slide 14: MB thesis: Wax absorbs treatments. Response: True of Apistan (which is no longer used in any frequency), absolutely untrue of Amitraz (the major "hard" chemical now in use).

Slide 16: MB thesis: Essential oil disrupts communication by pheromones. Response: Seriochemicals are detected by specialized receptors in the antennas, only the proper chemical is the key fitting the "lock" on the receptor.

Slide 17: MB thesis: "Bond" breedings removes "bad genes". Response: This is a crude and reductionist analogy. Bee genetic system conserves variation through polyandrous outcrossing. Targeted selection is deminished. The bee genetic system has the highest level of "cross-over" mixing during meiosis observed in any organism. This ensures that all genes are strongly conserved.

Slide 20: MB thesis: Local survivors are climate adapted. Response: No where demonstrated. Bees manage their hive environment to their requirements, they are not passive recepients of "climate". The Apis bee is, sine qua non, a "generalist" not a specialist. This includes forage and climate adaptation. Broad outcrossing and conservation of genetic variation means that "local adaptation" is not an operative factor.

Slide 27: MB thesis: Sugar syrup is alkaline and Honey is Acid. Response: Nectar is 50% sucrose and is alkaline. It is the process of inverting Nectar (and sugar syrup) by spliting disaccharide to the two mono-saccharide that the immature honey is made acid. Bees split syrup just like they split nectar to create a acid glucose and fructose mixture.

Slides 35-40. MB thesis: Natural comb is healthier than comb drawn on foundation Response: The logic of MB is "I cannot demonstrate it helps, but what harm is there in trying". Comb is energetically costly to the bees and time consuming on the part of the beekeeper to "chaperone". The harm is in the "opportunity cost" of not making a honey crop, of losing a colony to swarming out due to constraints on the available comb, and the time cost in correcting and managing "wonky" comb.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregB said:


> *Four Simple Steps *
> No Treatments
> Breeding Local Survivors
> Natural Food
> Natural Comb


Speaking of the "Four Simple Steps":
- the "No Treatments" part

So far, my following the prescription of "No Treatments" resulted in near impossibility to be "Breeding Local Survivors" just due to simple logistics.

This is because there were either no survivors to breed from OR no essential breeding was possible due to the lack of resources (i.e. timely availability of live bees to support the breeding activity in a proper pre-planned fashion).



> 2016/2017 - 1/2 (50%)
> 2017/2018 - 2/11 (18%)
> 2018/2019 - 4/13 (31%)
> 2019/2020 - 0/19 (0%)
> ...


Basically, this 5-year TF operation attempt amounted to per-annual recovery project from the severe losses by means of free bee scrounging (catching escaped commercial bee swarms) - all because of the strictly following the "No Treatments" plan (technically, no chems).

Several "resistant" queens obtained for "breeding purposes" were not able to produce adequately "resistant" off-spring (openly-mated).

This is a good "dirt cheap (DC) beekeeping" model. 
But this is not a sustainable Treatment-Free (TF) model (no matter if it is called exactly that). 
DC beekeeping <> TF beekeeping.
DC beekeeping, indeed, is possible just about anywhere where construction trash and free bees are available for taking.
TF beekeeping - not so much (even if presented so - misleadingly).


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

_ Clean WaxNatural comb is really the only way to get clean wax in your hivesThe beeswax supply is contaminated and foundation, right out of the box, is contaminated with fluvalinate, coumaphos, amitraz and other lipophilic pesticidesOnly if you already have clean wax and a press could you make your own clean foundation _



https://slideplayer.com/slide/676514/1/images/41/Clean+Wax+Natural+comb+is+really+the+only+way+to+get+clean+wax+in+your+hives..jpg


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregB said:


> DC beekeeping <> TF beekeeping.


So yes, the opportunistic DC beekeeping is an interesting subject and this is what I have been doing. 
It is a lot of fun and makes all kinds of practical sense in many situations.

Anytime people call it "TF beekeeping", however, they are misleading the audience.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Speaking of the* Four Simple Steps:*
- the "Breeding Local Survivors" part..

Let us remember who the target audience of the said presentation is - majority is a beginning hobbyist with very few colonies (or no bees even yet).

So, every single word of these three words (Breeding Local Survivors) needs some unpacking in terms of their actual feasibility.

Breeding - is a "beginning hobbyist with very few colonies" capable of any meaningful breeding?
Let alone in somewhat populated area with the presence of other uncoordinated beekeeping activity?
No.
Next....

Local - are there true local bees in any random, generic place in the USA?
Most likely not.
There are several promising pockets - indeed. A good subject for a discussion.
Enough said on that.
Next...

Survivors - in the eyes of a "beginning hobbyist with very few colonies", most any package or a random swarm that survived a winter (while not being treated) is a survivor.
Not so.

And so here we are, a "beginning hobbyist with very few colonies" somewhere in suburbs of Chicago or Milwaukee.
We found this magical slide show, watched it, and we now decided to be "Breeding Local Survivors" because we could.
Just another day we even caught a swarm of feral bees!
What not to love about the TF beekeeping?
LOL


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Speaking of* Four Simple Steps *
- the "Natural Food" part

We all heard the "I never feed" part often enough.
OK, great.
For some beeks it works great and that is cool.
Some of us can be truly envious.

But it really depends.

Eat natural or die is a false premise.
However un-sexy OR politically incorrect bees surviving on dry sugar may sound, it will save them when it really counts.
(At least here we agree with Solomon Parker, the TF guy. LOL).

I routinely feed sugar syrup where it is due - to boost the nucs or to prep a smaller colony for the winter.
If not for winter dry sugar feeding, those mite-weakened colonies will drop off even faster (bringing winter losses from terrible to _worse than terrible_).

Doing everything possible here to mitigate the "No Treatments" problem - hence the unnatural feeding necessity.
Being on the "No Treatments" regiment causes many people to be inventive in all kinds of ways - because the "No Treatments" part results in a number of very weak colonies to be handled over the winter. What is one supposed to do?

The "No Treatments" is great for the beginning beekeepers this way - they are forced to learn all kinds of techniques to keep the barely live colonies alive - very educational!  I guess, there is that benefit.

Different subject - non-floral honey in certain places and/or certain times can be really bad.
I lost at least one very good colony to non-floral honey over the last 5 years.
Straight sugar syrup wins hands down over the late non-floral honey for wintering purposes.

OK, end of rant.
Again, this rant is only applicable in places where TF appears to have very poor feasibility and makes no practical sense to follow.


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## Akademee (Apr 5, 2020)

GregB said:


> Different subject - non-floral honey in certain places and/or certain times can be really bad.
> I lost at least one very good colony to non-floral honey over the last 5 years.
> Straight sugar syrup wins hands down over the late non-floral honey for wintering purposes.


Could you expand on that? I'd be interested to know more about that situation. Are you referring to a colony getting honey-bound by overfeeding syrup or something else?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Akademee said:


> Could you expand on that? I'd be interested to know more about that situation. Are you referring to a colony getting honey-bound by overfeeding syrup or something else?


Non-floral honey - *natural *honey obtained from non-floral sources.
Not Pepsi, not Coke, none of that.
Not over-feeding.

A common example - honey-dew honey sourced from the aphid poop.
Lesser known examples (yet just as common if not more) - non-floral honeys collected from coniferous trees.
Deciduous trees can also have sugary secretions and also are collected by bugs.
Aphids may or may not be a part of the picture, but they are not required to be.

Non-floral honeys are bad for bee wintering as they contain lots of ash and fill the guts too quickly.

I had a perfect chance to film a good example and wasted it a couple of years ago.
In late summer some of the White Pines in the area developed some liquid secretions on their needles.
Wasps, YJ, bees, flies - most any bug in the area were swarming around those pines, collecting and eating that "stuff".
A lot of that went directly into the hives - not good.

Looks similar to this picture but not exactly (pictured is just water condensate).
In case of the non-floral coniferous "nectar" (offer a better name) you should see how the liquid is being released from the very ends of the needles.
By the way, Etienne Tardif (if not mistaken) had some write up on this exact subject - non-floral honey collected from the conifers in his Alaska setting. They have a similar problem.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is a YT episode about "juniper honey"
(non-English though - I keep track of this channel as they analyze and discuss various honeys sent in for analysis and certification).

A honey with large non-floral component sourced apparently from some local juniper is the topic discussed.
The show host is puzzled after they spent three days analyzing the sample - basically it is juniper honey, love it or hate it, even though juniper is a non-blooming coniferous plant. 

This kind of "natural food" would be pretty much lethal for bee wintering for most bees.
Of note - the Russian bees seem to show good tolerance of non-floral honeys, however. 
So that part comes in too.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

*Four Simple Steps *
- Natural Comb

All I ever used in the brood nest was Natural comb.
All five years of this TF program (and will continue since this is what I want - the Natural comb).
Bees died as has been reported due to the "No Treatments" regiment, regardless of the Natural comb based brood nests.

As far as the Small Cell...
Natural cells are variable, not small.
We had a good discussion of it here:








Cell size survey.


Watching this video gave me an idea. A fellow in Tatarstan, Russia is trying foundation-less approach in his Dadants. (Feel free to ignore or quickly click through - nothing special outside of him realizing that foundation is not necessary and iron wires maybe bad; nothing to see here....)...




www.beesource.com





Samples of mite-related crashes on Natural comb.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Bush's steps are on their site. That one didn't work.

things not mentioned

brood breaks: Feral bees have a brood break when they swarm. Bush's might not get one.
Hive volume might not be natural.
Entrances: Does Bush know the natural entrance size and location?
insulation: What's the natural amount?
Food: People disrupt forage plants. Pollen substitute can help.
Bush should cite some research if they want to be more convincing.

I especially want to know about when successful TF bees get brood breaks. I made a thread.

The thread I made about becoming TF is in my signature.
If you're hives aren't able to be TF,

Treat.
Let the treatment break down.
Requeen with a TF queen.
Change the genetics in your area to more TF.
Try to become TF. Only risk a few hives at first.
I don't understand the point of foundation.


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