# Icing Sugar dusting for a natural way to treat bees.



## Ice509bee (May 7, 2021)

Hello all,
I am a small scale beekeeper (hoping to grow) that is embarking on a little experiment to treat my bees with icing sugar dusting against varroa. I started beekeeping in 2019. Is there anyone who is doing the same and has some tips or would like to participate in this little study with their bees?
Thank You,

By the way this book is a good read! 'Natural Beekeeping: Organic Approaches to Modern Apiculture' by Ross Conrad. (available on Amazon)


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!

I would like to encourage you to conduct your experiment with 'ground-up' ordinary granulated sugar, rather than the commercially available powdered/icing sugar. The reason is that granulated sugar is ONLY sugar, but powdered/confectioners sugar has cornstarch added to prevent caking of that powdered sugar (at least that is the case in North America). 

See this product page for confirmation of the cornstarch issue:





Powdered Sugar | United Sugars


Powdered Sugar is made by grinding granulated sugar with cornstarch to the desired grain size. White in color, powdered sugar has a sucrose content of approximately 97.0% and a corn starch content of approximately 3.0% to prevent caking and to increase shelf life.




unitedsugars.com





Ground-up granulated sugar (running it through a blender works) is a better choice than confectioners sugar.


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## Ice509bee (May 7, 2021)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Welcome to Beesource!
> 
> I would like to encourage you to conduct your experiment with 'ground-up' ordinary granulated sugar, rather than the commercially available powdered/icing sugar. The reason is that granulated sugar is ONLY sugar, but powdered/confectioners sugar has cornstarch added to prevent caking of that powdered sugar (at least that is the case in North America).
> 
> ...


OK, Thanks.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

if your going to put the organic compound C12H22O11 in to a beehive, why not put C2H2O4 , or CH₂O₂ ?

all 3 are natural food components.

give this series a read, it will help you frame the experiment Powdered Sugar Dusting - Sweet and Safe, but Does it Really Work? Part 1 - Scientific Beekeeping


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## Ice509bee (May 7, 2021)

msl said:


> if your going to put the organic compound C12H22O11 in to a beehive, why not put C2H2O4, or CH₂O₂ ?
> 
> all 3 are natural food components.
> 
> give this series a read, it will help you frame the experiment Powdered Sugar Dusting - Sweet and Safe, but Does it Really Work? Part 1 - Scientific Beekeeping


Yes, they are 'Natural' but what are the rest of the ingredients in those treatments?


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

Also check out the research done by Dr. Jamie Ellis, entomologist, University of Florida, on the effectiveness of dusting with powdered sugar for varroa.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Ice509bee said:


> Yes, they are 'Natural' but what are the rest of the ingredients in those treatments?


Nothing...all are single compound organic treatments 
and that's the rub... an organic treatment is an organic treatment
it doesn't matter if its C10H14O (thymol), C2H2O4 (oxalic acid), CH₂O₂ (formic acid) or C12H22O11 (*sucrose* )

The long and short is that IF C12H22O11 worked, it would have the same pitfall of all the others, propping up poor genetics!! this is the belief system TF "breeding" is based on


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## Ice509bee (May 7, 2021)

msl said:


> Nothing...all are single compound organic treatments
> and that's the rub... an organic treatment is an organic treatment
> it doesn't matter if its C10H14O (thymol), C2H2O4 (oxalic acid), CH₂O₂ (formic acid) or C12H22O11 (*sucrose* )
> 
> The long and short is that IF C12H22O11 worked, it would have the same pitfall of all the others, propping up poor genetics!! this is the belief system TF "breeding" is based on


Ok, Thanks for your reply.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm just going to come right out and say it.

Sugar dusting won't work.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

John Davis said:


> Also check out the research done by Dr. Jamie Ellis, entomologist, University of Florida, on the effectiveness of dusting with powdered sugar for varroa.


Don't believe any of the above and Dominoes sugar will really love you.


Oldtimer said:


> I'm just going to come right out and say it.
> 
> Sugar dusting won't work.


Works for Dominoes sugar company.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

😂


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## jjayf (Aug 15, 2020)

Oldtimer said:


> I'm just going to come right out and say it.
> 
> Sugar dusting won't work.


I hate to discourage the scientific method but the studies have been done...its a waste of time.

in my opinion...
IF you want to be treatment free and contribute to varroa and virus resistant genetics have at it. ScientificBeekeeping.com has some great articles on ways to do that with ethical considerations.
But in my opinion if your gonna treat, (maybe after doing mite washes and seeing infestion and viruses galore), use something that actually works like a good dose of formic , and requeen from resistant genetics....and then you can go back to "treatment free" 

just my thoughts


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

jjayf said:


> I hate to discourage the scientific method but the studies have been done...its a waste of time.
> 
> in my opinion...
> IF you want to be treatment free and contribute to varroa and virus resistant genetics have at it. ScientificBeekeeping.com has some great articles on ways to do that with ethical considerations.
> ...


Unfortunately mites are here to stay with their viruses and all, you can take care of your mite problem whichever way you wish but it the numbers do not come down you are just another beekeeper contributing to those high loss numbers put out by the Bee Informed Partnership. There have been a number of intelectual folks working on developing mite resistant and or hygenic bees going on for around 20 years now but I have not found any that would survive mites without help from the beekeeper. Get to know your bees mite load, then you can decide which way you would like to go.


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## jjayf (Aug 15, 2020)

I would like to add to johno's comment. The way I support the advancement of resistant genetics in my small way by buying bees from breeders that prioritize it I pay the extra $$ for VSH, Russians and feral survivors I get from local a few breeders. I appreciate people that keep a watch on thier mites as in late fall my strong russian hybrid colonies that have been treated 4 times during the season with Formic, Oxalic, Apivar, AND Thymol go from a 0 mite wash to 12-15 in a week at the end of october because they are robbing one of my neighbors dying colonies that are full of mites and viruses which overwhelm any inherent resistance my bees have.


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## Ice509bee (May 7, 2021)

Hi all,
Thanks for your input.

Is there anyone who has used sugar dusting and found it a successful way to keep mite levels down in a hive?
Just looking for the other side of the story. Thanks


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## Ice509bee (May 7, 2021)

I am really only looking for a way to keep the mite levels low, as I know that sugar dusting only makes the bees groom themselves thus knocking the mites off (+ coating the mites, so they have no grip), but it has no effect on mites inside the cells. One study (by ScientificBeekeeping.com) showed that it killed 50% of all phoretic mites each time the bees were dusted. Look at the second half. IPM 5 Fighting Varroa : Biotechnical Tactics Part 2 - Scientific Beekeeping


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Ice509bee said:


> Is there anyone who has used sugar dusting and found it a successful way to keep mite levels down in a hive?
> Just looking for the other side of the story. Thanks


Might get a few more responses outside the treatment free sub-fourm. Most of us here are at least trying to be TF... 

Not tried sugar dusting myself and have no plans to do so. If your in a low humidity area and can time the SD treatment(s) to a brood break it is probably worth trying. Otherwise likely a waste of time.


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## ncbeez (Aug 25, 2015)

I have sugar dusted with a Freeman oil bottom board to remove small hive beetles. I notice that it knocks a few of the varroa mites off also but very few. I couldn't use it as a means to keep varroa populations down.


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## jjayf (Aug 15, 2020)

Ice509bee said:


> I am really only looking for a way to keep the mite levels low, as I know that sugar dusting only makes the bees groom themselves thus knocking the mites off (+ coating the mites, so they have no grip), but it has no effect on mites inside the cells. One study (by ScientificBeekeeping.com) showed that it killed 50% of all phoretic mites each time the bees were dusted. Look at the second half. IPM 5 Fighting Varroa : Biotechnical Tactics Part 2 - Scientific Beekeeping


In my opinion scientific beekeeping has everything you really need to know about keeping varroa levels down from resistant bees to IPM, the "treatment free" forum won't get you great feedback, Im even reluctant to get into my IPM strategies here because .... its the "treatment free" forum


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You are right Jjayf, IPM strategies are considered treatment strategies for the most part, so are not supposed to be discussed in the TF section.


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## drone74 (Dec 22, 2019)

I use sugar dusting as part of a treatment regiment I have been doing for the past few years. Just like others have suggested (and the research reported on the Scientifc Beekeeping website), sugar dusting by itself it is not effective enough. You will knock down some of the mites, but you will still have mites chomping on your larva and spreading viruses. The most effective method I have found is forcing a brood break by caging the queen in a Scalvini cage for 21 days so that all the bee larva have hatched. I sugar dust a couple times during this time as all the mites are phoretic b/c there are no brood for the mites to feast on. I also use drone comb frames and cull all the drones after they have been capped. This is a lot of work however, specifcally finding each queen and caging them, so it is definitely not a TF method... it is a chemical-treatment-free method.

I used sugar dusting alone in the past and it did not work out well for my bees. The viruses spread by the mites really do a number on the bees, so you really have to keep mite levels low in order to prevent the spread of viruses, especially to the larva of course.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

drone74 said:


> it is a chemical-treatment-free method.


how so?

Your putting the organic chemical compound C12H22O11 in to a beehive to control mites 
How its this different then using the organic chemical compounds C2H2O4, C10H14O, or CH₂O₂ ?


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## drone74 (Dec 22, 2019)

There is no chemical interaction between the sugar and the bees or varroa. Sugar dusting is physical interaction only. Oxalic acid etc have a chemical interaction with the organisms inside the hive, hence the sort of crude use of the word "chemicals".

Of course, that is EXACTLY why I don't use treatments like Oxalic acid- I do not want to potentially harm the hive with treatments any more than I have to. Sugar annoys them and disrupts them some, but most likely does not harm the bees. It is unknown if oxalic acid harms them. I figure that there is a potential for it to harm the bees seeing that the bees and mites are made of the same stuff.

Also, I do not want to disrupt the ecology of the hive either. Oxalic acid potentially harms other important organisms inside the hive other than the bees. I assume that sugar dusting might disrupt the other organisms some as well, but I assume it would be less harmful to the hive ecology.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think what MSL was getting at is that sugar is a chemical.

So a person using it cannot claim they do not put a chemical in their hives.

A technicality I know, however in the past there has been confusion with people posting they were chemical free, because they only used thymol, formic acid, essential oils, etc... The TF moderator decided that chemical free should mean just that, no chemical of any kind put in the hive for the purpose of removing a mite issue.

Sugar dust does kill larvae that have recently emerged from the egg, in fact I used to use a queen raising method that utilised that to kill off the unwanted larvae and allow a suitable gap between queen cells. It is documented as the ball bearing method or some such name, although I don't think it is widely used now a days.


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## Ice509bee (May 7, 2021)

Oldtimer said:


> Sugar dust does kill larvae that have recently emerged from the egg


How do you know that for sure? We are not dusting into the cell but down the frames onto the bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ice509bee said:


> How do you know that for sure?





Oldtimer said:


> I used to use a queen raising method that utilised that to kill off the unwanted larvae


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## drone74 (Dec 22, 2019)

Oldtimer said:


> I think what MSL was getting at is that sugar is a chemical.
> 
> So a person using it cannot claim they do not put a chemical in their hives.
> 
> ...


I understand that he was saying that sugar is a "chemical". Every element and compound have a chemical formula, so it is really silly to make a post like that. By the same logic you could say that smashing hive beetles with your hive tool is "applying a chemical". What matters when it comes to application of treatment is interaction of the substance with the environment. There is no chemical reaction, so there is no chemical application. There is only physical interaction of the substance with the environment. 

Even if we all agree in the end that using sugar dusting is "chemical treatment", my motivation is not to say that "I use chemical free treatment" as some sort of badge of honor. My motivation is to try to harm the bees and their environment as little as possible.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

drone74 said:


> Oxalic acid potentially harms other important organisms inside the hive other than the bees. I assume that sugar dusting might disrupt the other organisms some as well, but I assume it would be less harmful to the hive ecology.


Got it

C12H22O11 sticking to the mites footpads and causing them to drop = good
C2H2O4 sticking to the mites footpads and causing them to drop and die = bad

potentials and assumptions baised on how a human body reacts to said organic compounds, not science


We have studies showing sugar dusting kills more bees than OAV 😉 , 3.7% of the dusted pop by day 4 in Fakhimzadeh (2011)


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## Ice509bee (May 7, 2021)

msl said:


> Got it
> 
> C12H22O11 sticking to the mites footpads and causing them to drop = good
> C2H2O4 sticking to the mites footpads and causing them to drop and die = bad
> ...


Could you show those studies please? Thanks


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## drone74 (Dec 22, 2019)

Ice509bee said:


> Could you show those studies please? Thanks


I found them here:








(PDF) Physical control of varroa mites (Varroa destructor): The effects of various dust materials on varroa mite fall from adult honey bees (Apis mellifera) in vitro


PDF | In this study, we investigated the impact of ten different materials on the fall of varroa ( Varroa destructor) mites from adult honey bees (Apis... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net




You have to select the option to download the PDF to get access to it.

The figures msl was talking about refer actually to Slovenian powdered sugar and baby powder, not regular old powdered sugar. The author of the study suggested that ground sugar and vacuum collected ground sugar (he describes what these are) had low bee mortality and high mite drops in comparison to the other substances he used in the test.

Of course, something very important to note is the method he used to apply these substances- sugar shake in a jar. This study is not specific to applying sugar dusting to a hive- it is more testing to see which powdered substance is most effective in knocking off mites using the jar shake. He also examines bee mortality rates in his findings of course.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

drone74 said:


> The figures msl was talking about refer actually to Slovenian powdered sugar and baby powder, not regular old powdered sugar.


nope

at day 4, 90.3% of the bees survived the powered sugared and 93.8% survived the control shake... the difference between the 2 is the amount of bees killed by the powdered sugar.
Good news for proponents of sugar shakes for mite monitoring as that would mean only about 11 bees die out of the 300.... but when your dusting a hive of 40,000 that adds up to 1480.. at a 50% mite knock down that's 5 treatments to = one OAV... that's a lot of dead bees... but a treatment is close to the amount that die of natural causes per day that you don't see dead, so they are missed


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## drone74 (Dec 22, 2019)

msl said:


> nope
> 
> at day 4, 90.3% of the bees survived the powered sugared and 93.8% survived the control shake... the difference between the 2 is the amount of bees killed by the powdered sugar.
> Good news for proponents of sugar shakes for mite monitoring as that would mean only about 11 bees die out of the 300.... but when your dusting a hive of 40,000 that adds up to 1480.. at a 50% mite knock down that's 5 treatments to = one OAV... that's a lot of dead bees... but a treatment is close to the amount that die of natural causes per day that you don't see dead, so they are missed


You missed this (quoting myself):



> Of course, something very important to note is the method he used to apply these substances- sugar shake in a jar. This study is not specific to applying sugar dusting to a hive- it is more testing to see which powdered substance is most effective in knocking off mites using the jar shake.


You can't compare mortality rates from an Oxalic acid application done in a hive to a sugar shake in a jar. If he did an oxalic acid jar shake or if he got the results from sugar dusting a hive you might have something.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> I'm just going to come right out and say it.
> 
> Sugar dusting won't work.


Don't sugar coat it, OT. 

Alex


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

drone74 said:


> You can't compare


We know the shakeing mortality rate, we know the control mortality rate, we know the dust mortality rate.. 
From the study


> we feel that these products should be used with caution when applied to bee colonies to encourage mite fall. With powdered sugar, our data suggest that using “pure” sugar is better than using sugar containing starch or other ingredients. Our data further suggest that those products which people feel are “natural” varroa controls (for example, the dust controls) may affect bees negatively in other ways. We do not feel that all natural varroa control methods are inherently harmless to bees




But let's move on to field trials then
Bery (2012) (PDF) Revisiting powdered sugar for Varroa control on honey bees (Apis mellifera L.)

We see top dusted hives (the common way of applying powered sugar) had a 23.57% lower bee population at the end then air dusted hives, clearly showing a damaging effect on the bees.

I will stick with the unpopular but defensible position that sugar dusting is not harm less to the bees and OAV seems to be safer on them.


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## Ice509bee (May 7, 2021)

Thanks all for your input.
Is there anyone who used to do sugar dusting but has now stopped because they found it to be not worth their effort?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I wouldn't say I "used to do it", because I didn't do it for any length of time.

But I did trial it long enough to find it didn't work, so stopped doing it.

Let's put it this way. Years ago it became the newest thing among new beekeepers who were investigating ways to deal with mites. Lots of people tried it, wrote about it, and even made videos about it. Because it can take a long time for mites to kill a hive, many of those people thought it was working. They would say things like "I've been sugar dusting my hive for 6 months, and they are doing just fine". Other new players would see such posts and think that meant it worked. Not realising that the bees could seem to be "doing just fine" for 6 months anyhow, even with no form of treatment. 

People were also fooled because after a sugar dust they might find say, 100 mites on the drop board. Wow it's working, they would think. Unaware that there were 4,000 mites still in the hive and the 100 on the drop board was not even equal to one days population increase.

The other problem with human nature was that people who were promoting and arguing for sugar dusting as a treatment, basically dug themselves into a position on it. Then when their hives eventually collapsed, they just went silent on it. Not wanting to fess up that everything they had been saying was wrong. So there's all this stuff about sugar dusting floating around on the net to contaminate the minds of new players, without the other side of the coin being presented.

However some people will honestly tell you it didn't work, there are some of them in this thread.

That is the hard reality about sugar dusting, plainly told. But end of day, if you are determined to do it, go ahead, but you have been warned, don't come crying back to us


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