# Hive body/frame dimensions question



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Cut and machined "wood", while no longer part of a living tree, is *_not_* static. 

Wood dimensions change slightly as the wood absorbs/loses moisture from the environment that wood is in. If you make frames to be an 'exact fit' (or close) in the hive body, you may end up running 9 frames in your 10 frame box because 10 frames will no longer fit! 



... add in a little propolis and 'fit' only get further away from 'spec' ... :lookout:


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Bees do not work based on U.S. inches. They build drone cells which need wider spacing and they build burr and bridge comb which close up any gaps. Propolis will be applied to the side bars eventually making them wider than 1 3/8 inches. That extra inch of space inside the box will be needed by the beekeeper to be able to remove a frame without rolling the queen.

The correct internal dimensions for a Langstroth hive are:
Length 18 5/16 (465 mm)
Width 14 11/16 (373 mm)
Height 9 5/8 (243 mm)

If you have a copy of Dadant's book The Hive and The Honeybee, it shows the height as 9 19/32 inches. That does not help much when the frames are only 9 1/8 inches deep leaving a 1/2 inch gap between hive bodies.


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## muusu (Mar 21, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Cut and machined "wood", while no longer part of a living tree, is *_not_* static.
> 
> Wood dimensions change slightly as the wood absorbs/loses moisture from the environment that wood is in. If you make frames to be an 'exact fit' (or close) in the hive body, you may end up running 9 frames in your 10 frame box because 10 frames will no longer fit!
> 
> ...


I hadn't considered moisture and the swelling of wood, that is a good point.

Though even in the most humid of weather I would be stunned to see those little spacers gain that much distance.


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## muusu (Mar 21, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> Propolis will be applied to the side bars eventually making them wider than 1 3/8 inches.


Valid points. 

One could argue that if the frames were properly sized and spaced propolis would be less of an issue. With one extra inch of space in the hive the 10 frames need to be spaced approx. 3/32" apart and away from the sides, this being less than bee space, causes the bees to propolize. If the space in the hive were different or if the spacer bars were wider so that they fit fairly tightly together, the bees might weld the frames together but would not be able to add to their dimension.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Frames in a brood area of the hive are normally all pushed together and the group centered in the available space. Intentionally leaving space between the bars will normally result in wonky comb and possibly an unmanageable problem.

_Once drawn out_, in honey supers only, frames can spaced wider apart to encourage fatter frames (more honey per frame, but less quantity of individual frames to handle to extract)

As far as hive humidity, note that the bees themselves may maintain hive humidity that is different than whatever the ambient outside air is. Notably, bees haul in water to manage temperatures on very hot days - in a bee version of a human 'swamp cooler' in a structure.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

With standard frames the width of the shoulders on endbars is such that each frame gives half a bee space from the capped cell surface. The adjacent frame gives the other half a bee space so the working bee space between comb surfaces is one bee space. If you go wider it takes two layers of bees to cover brood and slows buildup in cold climates. If you go less there is not room for drone cells on adjacent comb surfaces and cells may be cut down on the adjoining frame: projecting drone cells interlock and you cannot pull frames straight up without raking cell cappings and rolling bees.

Between the outside frame capped cell surface and the hive wall there is no adjoining frame to lend half a bee space so that space looks proportionately larger than what is shared between frames. It is a bit more than one bee space when all the frame shoulders are scrupulously clean of wax and propolis but that is not the real world situation in a hive and frames with some experience on them. A little bit of slack lets you pry the outside frame out to the wall and makes pulling the second frame a safer opening move.

The wee bit of extra space to the outside of the collected frames on the Mann Lake boxes are not a problem. If I thought it was I would surely make a half inch dummy or follower board before I considered making the box smaller and create a bastard size box that would not mate with other standard boxes or bottom boards.

I would give that one some more thinking before I headed down that trail!


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## muusu (Mar 21, 2014)

crofter said:


> The wee bit of extra space to the outside of the collected frames on the Mann Lake boxes are not a problem. If I thought it was I would surely make a half inch dummy or follower board before I considered making the box smaller and create a bastard size box that would not mate with other standard boxes or bottom boards.
> 
> I would give that one some more thinking before I headed down that trail!


I agree with that. I didn't really have any plans for making bastard boxes, it was more just curiosity on why it seems so out of place. I am planning to build some long Langs this winter which will make this moot, at least for those hives. I am also planning to go to a thinner (natural/regressed) 1 1/4" frame and would then run 11 frames in a 10 frame box.

Bill


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> it was more just curiosity on why it seems so out of place.


The best way to answer this question is to go back to the bee space arguments of the late 1800's. There was a lot of controversy over what constitutes proper bee space with Dadant arguing for 1.5 inches, others for 1.25 inches, and a compromise on 1.375 (1 3/8) inches. Read the original arguments and the answer will be there.


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## NorthMaine (Oct 27, 2016)

If you look at the book Dadant System of Beekeeping - C.P. Dadant Page 21-22 

Frame Spacing
Another advantage of the large brood-chambers, which we adopted after the example of Quinby, is to be found in the greater spacing of the frames. Quinby spaced his frames -- and therefore the combs of the colony -- 1 1/2 inches from center to center. He followed former apiarists, such as Dzierzon, in this, and thought it the correct distance. Langstroth spaced his combs a fraction over 1 3/8 inches apart and thought it correct. The manufacturers of hives in the United States, without investigating the matter very deeply, made the spacing of the frames exactly 1 3/8. They had good authorities behind them for Berlepsch, one of the leaders of the middle of the 19th Century, asserted that this spacing was the one followed by bees. Adopting the Quinby hive, we have adopted his spacing. When the matter was discussed and we referred to the bees, in natural condition, for their testimonial, *we found that they make all sorts of spacing in building their combs, from one to two inches or even more, from center to center.* But the aim to have their worker-brood combs a half inch apart, between the combs, which would represent the 1 3/8 spacing, from center to center. 
All this may look very unimportant to the beginner. Yet much of the success or failure of beekeeping depends on such small matters.
The supporters of the narrow spacing look upon the wide spacing as a detriment and Mr. Julius Hoffman, inventor of the frame bearing his name, wrote:

"If we space the combs from center to center 1 1/2 inches, instead of 1 3/8, then we have an empty space of 5/8 inch between two combs of brood, instead of 1/2, as it ought to be; and it will certainly require more bees to fill and keep warm a 5/8 than a 1/2 inch space. In a 1/2 inch space, the breeding bees from teh two combs facing each other will join with their backs, and so close up the space between the two brood combs. If this space is widened to 5/8 the bees cannot do this, and more bees will be required to keep up the needed brood-rearing temperature. What a drawback this would be in a cool spring, when our colonies are still weeak in numbers, yet breeding most desirable, can readily be understood."

This is a good argument but it does not work well in practice, in large hives. When the breeding season ends, the bees living between combs spaced 1 1/2 inches put more honey in each brood comb, since there is more room and they do not need, then, to keep the cells down to the exact length of the bee chrysalis, as in breeding time. So the comb, or that part of it that is filled with honey, is thickened so as to leave just the necessary room for the bees to pass through. This gives a larger amount of honey than in narrow combs; the bees congregate ther in greater number and thus winter better. They are more powerful in spring and the cycle of the year is reached with better success.

----------------------

My take on this, this is an issue where there is no real correct answer. It's all just compromises.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Be happy with the extra space in-between frames as it will disappear quickly and you will be scraping end bars to try to get it back.


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## HillBilly2 (Jul 26, 2015)

muusu said:


> I have been trying to figure this out for a while. I am planning to build my own equipment because I am tired of the mismatched slop that I have now (which was procured from neighbors, different suppliers, and home built in a rush).
> 
> the "standard" hive body is 16 1/4" outside, which is 14 3/4" inside. "Standard" frames are 1 3/8". 10 frames @ 1 3/8" is 13 3/4" which is 1" less than the inside of the hive. If you consider using 1 1/4" frames the spacing only gets worse.
> 
> ...


Well, the 13 3/4 is the width of the ten frames, then you have to add the 3/8 bee space on both outsides, then you have 14 1/2. A couple of extra eights and then your there.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

I am the owner of a plastics (Acrylic) Company. Day to day use can make equipment settings move. Every couple weeks I go through with micro gauges and re-set the table saw settings. It becomes really off when the temps change about 15 degrees. Different MFG saw blades and sharpening service times will all effect the outcome of the dimension. If a company really cares about a dimension it's gotta be checked every so many parts and that's the problem with industry I suspect is no tolerance is kept. This is the problem with buying from different suppliers. It's just not humidity/temps and board moisture expansion and contraction. It goes with either the company checks and calibrates every so many parts or they don't. In my business accurate measurement is key and most things I do is specified with a tolerance. Dial Gauge Calipers work perfectly for precise measurement. Want uniform equipment, cut wood that is at the same density and moisture with a 5 axis cnc machine. In bee world it's evident that it's not critical.


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## pjigar (Sep 13, 2016)

The extra 1" in the standard dimension is to allow for propolis build up and the some "wiggle space" on the last frames.

PS: When I built my first set of boxes, I did the math and reduced the box width by 1" and later found out that the frames were too tight to fit after few weeks! So now I have to run 9 frames on those old boxes.


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## billbyrd (Nov 13, 2021)

muusu said:


> I have been trying to figure this out for a while. I am planning to build my own equipment because I am tired of the mismatched slop that I have now (which was procured from neighbors, different suppliers, and home built in a rush).
> 
> the "standard" hive body is 16 1/4" outside, which is 14 3/4" inside. "Standard" frames are 1 3/8". 10 frames @ 1 3/8" is 13 3/4" which is 1" less than the inside of the hive. If you consider using 1 1/4" frames the spacing only gets worse.
> 
> ...


My biggest gripe about dimensions and other issues is that the folks who take it upon themselves to make how-to videos or write how-to books, don't bother to explain "why". This makes it very inviting for people to guess. And they state their guesses as facts. A full inch is way more than anyone would leave for wood expansion on any other wood project. Propolis and other types of frame thickening by the bees sound like the best answers to me. But the issue needs to be put to bed. I'm making my first hive and I chose to go with 8-frame dimensions trusting that the author of my how-to video series knew what he was doing. Now that I'm done, I have that big wide space. When I ask veteran beekeepers about it, I get a variety of answers. This is not a new science. By now there should be no ambiguity about math. Pisses me off when people say "It's personal preference." What if my personal preference was to leave two inches? What happened to the importance of bee space?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Standard hive body boards in Canada are 7/8" thick and US 3/4. This makes a small difference in width but can screw things up for people taking outside dimensions instead of inside of the frame rest area. A bit of extra space across the frames is not a problem; being on the tight side is. Actually nice if you use frame feeders to have space for one and still run 9 frames. Being tight in the frame rests (19 instead of 19 1/8") is a real curse. 

Not much use wringing you hands about the variations. It is what it is. Be careful mix and matching components from different manufacturers frame parts and be very suspicious of any home made articles unless you are completely familiar with the areas that are critical such as overall height of boxes and depth of frame rests.

Usually we touch the stove several times to learn the lesson; I still manage to go back for the occasional refresher!


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

billbyrd said:


> This is not a new science. By now there should be no ambiguity about math. Pisses me off when people say "It's personal preference." What if my personal preference was to leave two inches? What happened to the importance of bee space?


You've made a mistake in describing beekeeping as a science - as it's nowhere near being a science.

Although people frequently assert this, Langstroth didn't actually discover 'the bee-space' - that term was coined later - what he discovered was that when using removable frames there is a need for clearances all around the woodwork: that is, between the frames and the hive body, and between adjacent frames. This was clarified within his second Patent of 1863, in which - when describing frame construction - he writes: "Each of these strips is *about* one inch wide ...", and "The sides (...) are kept away from the front and rear walls of the case, and the bottom (...) of the case, *about* three-eighths of an inch, or* far enough to give a free bee passage* ..."

Langstroth's description (upon which his Patent claims were based) do *NOT* relate to the distance between the combs themselves. He writes: "I very much prefer that the tops of the frames, as they rest upon the rabbets, (see Fig. 1,) should have a lateral motion, so as to enable the apiarian *to regulate at will the distances between the combs*."

Thus, this idea - which admittedly has become widespread - that there is, or ought to be, an exact 'beespace' between adjacent combs is totally erroneous. Indeed, if you examine a comb prior to entering winter, you can often see a variation within the spacing between adjacent combs, with a two 'bee-space' clearance within the central comb area, where the bees have been raising brood, working back-to-back, with the spacing reduced to one 'bee-space' clearance towards the top, and perhaps the sides as well, where the bees have drawn-out the length of the cells a) to contain more honey, and b) to create a cavity between the combs roughly similar to that of two dinner plates placed rim-to-rim. Such a shaped cavity improves the ability of the bees to control conditions within that inter-comb environment.


With regard to the "personal preferences" which appear to annoy you, it may be useful to recognise that certain practices were only appropriate at one moment in time, and yet were not changed when subsequent inventions were adopted.
So - when the Root-Heddon Hive (called the 'Langstroth Hive' in the US) became the industry Standard, a frame spacing of 1 3/8" was adopted. But that was in the days when swarming was the only known way of 'making increase', and so any tendency to provoke swarming was considered to be a good thing - or at least it didn't present as being a serious problem which then needed to be eliminated.

Over time, methods of making 'artificial swarms' (nucleus colonies) were developed, and the use of unnatural-sized foundation (which determines the size of bees, and thus the size of the 'bee-space' itself) became popular, and yet the 1 3/8" spacing remained unchanged.

Charles Dadant was a far more experienced beekeeper than the woodenware manufacturer Amos Root, and had stayed with 1.5" spacing regardless of these developments. This spacing had always worked well for him, and yet Dadant was hard pressed to explain precisely why he preferred it. It was only after Allan Latham had clarified that the 1 3/8" spacing is largely responsible for stimulating the swarming impulse, that Dadant finally recognised the underlying reason for his own spacing preference.

The Root-Heddon ('Langstroth') Hive with it's landscape-shaped frames has been widely adopted because a} it maximises honey production (albeit at the expense of other desirable features), and b) because it was the first industrially mass-produced beehive which then effectively saturated the market. It is only by comparing this hive with other, numerically less popular hives, that some "personal preferences" begin to reveal their merit. One classic example being that of the space below a hanging frame.
In one-box hives which have frames of 11-12 inches or deeper - Dadant, Langstroth Jumbo, British 14x12, Layens etc - this space can be almost anything. even 2 or 3 inches, it really doesn't matter very much, as the bees are happy enough with such comb sizes and tend not to extend them further down. This only happens with the shape and size of the Root-Heddon ('Langstroth') Hive frames - hence the "personal preferences" expressed by some beekeepers.

Hope at least some of the above helps ...
LJ


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