# Dead Hive



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

If they still have honey....then.....likely varroa mites.
PS...save your comb.


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## Dante827 (Jun 8, 2014)

We looked at the bees for signs of mites but couldn't see any. Maybe we are too new to this to spot them. Would they wipe out a whole hive? Yes there was still honey in some frames. We were able to save about two quarts. Why should we save the combs?


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

Dante827 said:


> We looked at the bees for signs of mites but couldn't see any. Maybe we are too new to this to spot them. Would they wipe out a whole hive? Yes there was still honey in some frames. We were able to save about two quarts. Why should we save the combs?


Because those combs will save your new bees a lot of work drawing wax . Drawn comb is worth it's weight in gold ...


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## Dante827 (Jun 8, 2014)

Do I risk contaminating the new Nucs with the old comb? I really don't know what caused the mass extinction. How can I sterilize the old comb, frames and supers?


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

Dante827 said:


> Do I risk contaminating the new Nucs with the old comb? I really don't know what caused the mass extinction. How can I sterilize the old comb, frames and supers?


 Probably no need to sterilize , and the bees will clean them up . Do freeze them to be sure there are no SHB's or wax moth larvae , then seal them up so pests can't get in . I too lost a colony this winter , but I'm pretty sure mine was caused by mites combined with an already-weak colony . Getting robbed didn't help ...


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Dante827 said:


> We looked at the bees for signs of mites but couldn't see any.


Definitely mites...sorry. Find a local bee club.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

How and what signs of mites were you expecting to see, or not?

Right now, with a dead hive you can look in the brood cells and see if you see small white particles stuck to the sides and back. This is mite frass (poop).

Unless the bees are decomposed you might also try doing an alcohol roll on them to see if you float off some mites. This will only confirm that mites were there, not give you an idea of the rate of infestation which can only be done starting with live bees.

You can also look at the trash on the floor for mites.

Do you know what mites look like? Have you seen them? That may seem like a silly question but almost all hives, well in up the 90% range, have mites these days, so if you are not "seeing" them, I'm wondering if you are looking for the right thing: the right size and color for the tiny, oval-shaped (usually red-brown) creatures in the floor trash on your bottom board. I use a magniying glass to look for them on my white sticky boards

However, one other thing about your post caught my eye. You were checking the "sugar water". At this time of year you can't feed sugar syrup, you need to feed solid or dry sugar (either loose granulated white sugar, or bricks made of same, or fondant, or winter patty). Liquid (if the bees will even take it) chills them which adds a lot of physiological stress.

Do you have any idea what your hive weighed going into winter? That's a very important number to know, and it varies locally. I am north of you, slightly north of Albany, NY, and we shoot for 110-120 lbs as a minimum. If a hive is lighter than that, it is fed syrup in the fall to achieve that number, but if it is still light by early to mid-November (depending on the warmth, or lack of, of the particular season) then the plan is to switch to solid sugars kept on the hive for for the whole winter.

Throwing the comb out, in the absence of evident disease is a foolish waste. It will not contaminate your new bees and as mentioned it will give them a huge head start. Bees on new foundation have a dicey job getting it drawn and filled in their first year. The accumulated work of your dead bees will be a gift to the new ones, and make their unfortunate loss less pointless.

Starting over on fresh founationb won't help your new bees in any way as the most likely causes of the previous ones' death are things that a beekeeper can correct, not an infectious disease.

The three keys to winter survival: 

1) Enough stores to last the long period of no forage and to support the new brood started in February, long before they can go out again.

2) Adequate control of mites (however you choose to achieve that) during the previous August-October period so the wintering bees are strong and healthy. This makes sure that enough of them can live long enough to get through the winter to be able to maintain the critical cluster size for self-warming.

3) Winter preparations to the hive itself: which can be a mix of reducing entrances, providing windbreaks, upper entrances, quilt boxes, insulation, wrapping, etc. These things are meant to lower the energy-costs to the bees during the winter. bees do not hibernate, they self-heat their cluster to a core temp that allows them to survive and once they start brooding again they need to keep it in the _nineties_. And that's when the temps can be below zero outside.

I hope you will have much better luck next year. You can tip the Lady Luck's hand in your favor if you make a point of learning how to look for and monitor mite levels this year and weigh your hives (and if necessary feed them in seasonally-correct ways) later on in the year. 

Enjambres


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

enjambres said:


> almost all hives, well in up the 90% range, have mites these days,


I'd say 100%. I can't think of a situation where there wouldn't be any mites in North America.


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## Dante827 (Jun 8, 2014)

Fantastic reply! Thank you so much for the information. It was suggested that I treat my new nucs with oxalic acid when they arrive. Do you think that's necessary? 

With the sugar syrup I think you nailed it. Last winter 14/15 we gave them blocks of hardened sugar which they consumed throughout the winter. This winter we foolishly thought they had enough honey stores and only supplemented with the syrup. A mistake we will not make next winter!

We now know we need to be much more vigilant in spotting signs on pests. Prior to the arrival or our nucs we will be doing our homework. We plan to restart with two colonies to hopefully limit our losses and increase our honey harvest.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Do I understand correctly these bees had previously wintered successfully?

Then almost certainly these bees died from the effects of mites, which are much worse (in untreated colonies) in the second summer and fall. This is the boom and bust cycle that feral colonies go through. Beekeepers can sometimes eke out a year going TF, but the mites which overwintered with the colony in fairly high numbers will just explode in the second year, taking down the colony in the next winter, one way or another.

Oxalic acid dribble is one way to treat your new bees, but it has to be nicely timed to avoid setting back, or interrupting, the new colony's establishment. As a single-dose treatment it is only effective before there can be any capped brood, so less than seven days after hiving on drawn comb. I have no experience doing it, but I'm sure you can finf people here who have that. (I do use OA vaporizations, but have never used that on a new colony.)

But even if you don't treat soon after hiving you have lots of opportunities to get a mite monitoring and control program in place for this summer. If you want to reliably and successfully keep the same colonies of bees alive year after year, you need to set up some reasonable monitoring program to know what levels your mites are, and thus what your options are for dealing with them. But failing to monitor and manage leaves your bees in the same jeopardy as feral colonies struggling to survive.

Enj.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Dante827 said:


> It was suggested that I treat my new nucs with oxalic acid when they arrive. Do you think that's necessary?


My supplier now treats with OA dribble when the nucs are made up. OA dribble requires some practice/skill in order to get the dosage correct.

Previously, the nucs were not treated, and I would wait until the population had built up after hiving them, then treat with Formic Acid (MAQS). MAQS is easy to apply and (IMO) effective as long as the conditions are correct. To me, FA is easier and I intend to continue using it for the foreseeable future...though I reserve the right to change my mind if I get adventurous.

Check with your supplier to see if the nucs will be pre-treated or not.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Wait, you said you were getting nucs, right? Well, then they won't be broodless so any variety of a single dose of OA will not be very effective as it doesn't kill mites under cappings at all. And multiple doses just at installation might be too stressful. I think I'd let them get settled down and then consider something else, perhaps MAQS which is OK to have while you have honey supers (for human harvest). The advice about an early, single-dose treatment with OA-anything is for packages which are by definition broodless at installation. Nucs are a 'nother story as they likely come with some mites in with capped pupae when you get them.

But before worrying about that, I'd learn the monitoring techniques and get a program in place. New nucs usually aren't under too much mite pressure anyway, but you want to make sure of that by checking regularly. That way you know what the scope is before the first symptom is completely losing your colony.

Enj.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Do not throw out those frames! They are a valuable asset to the replacement bees. Use the money treating mites. Classic die off of a second year wintering colony falling to varroa mite load. The varroa are dead with the bees and the new bees will clean out those frames easily and quickly.


Dante827 said:


> Hi All
> 
> We went out to check if the little guys needed more sugar water and they didn't seem to be drinking any. I looked lower in the hive and found that every bee was dead. Some were just dead in a circular cluster on different frames but most were just dead at the bottom. My thought s are that if it was a pest or disease they wouldn't have just died in place. Is it possible they all died of the cold? We are in the northeast on Long Island. We did have a few very cold days below 0 but if I remember last year we did have cold temps also. We are cleaning out the hive and throwing out most of the frames so we can start new in the spring. Our new nucs will arrive in early May so we have time to sterilize and prepare.
> 
> Any thoughts?


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## Dante827 (Jun 8, 2014)

So the new bees will just clean up the cells and have a head start doing their thing? Some look nasty with capped cells that are not honey.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The capped cells are dead brood. No biggie, the bees will clean it up. Take care of what combs you have because starting a new colony gets a huge boost by having even one frame of drawn comb. Two or three is even better. No need to panic but think about ordering your new bees now. You might consider contacting your local bee club or association to attempt to purchase local-bred bees from one of the members. Great way to break the ice and meet some local beekeepers to see what they do about mite control.


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## Dante827 (Jun 8, 2014)

Where or how should I store the drawn frames until the nucs arrive in May? I don't want them to be a home to critters.


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