# Mcp??



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Most of the scales I encounter are 10,000 lb or better. Drive by empty and you'll get chased down, if they aren't too busy. And ALL 10,000 lb GVW vehicles are supposed to have a state or federal DOT number. I believe it's a HLS thing.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Thanks Mark.Maybe I shouldn't ask ,but what is an HLS thing?
The Ca. DMV website says:
--
Who needs a permit?

* Any person or entity who is paid to transport property in their motor vehicle regardless of vehicle size or weight (For-hire carrier).
* Any person or entity operating a motor vehicle with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 10,001 pounds or more and which is used in the course of business to transport their own property (Private carrier).
--
I figure I am a private carrier hauling my own property.
Oh, and I didn't mean I blew past the scales, just not pulled aside as I drove through.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

loggermike said:


> Thanks Mark.Maybe I shouldn't ask ,but what is an HLS thing?
> The Ca. DMV website says:
> --
> Who needs a permit?
> ...


10,001 huh? Clearly some legislator wanted to cut the 10,000 lb gross guys a break. Good on him.

HLS = Homeland Security. Maybe I should have abbreviated it HS instead, which is probably more accurate.

So help me God.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

HS!! Yikes,wouldn't want to run afoul of the KGB ,uh I mean HS.
Well gotta go mix up some more pollen sub and think about this some more.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Mcp*

Hey Mike as you probably already know the main requirement for an MCP is an insurance policy with a combined single limit liability of $750,000. Get it through your Farm Bureau it's not all that expensive. Then the permit is $35 annually plus I think $35 each time you add a vehicle. Buy the decals and you'll look official!


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

I went to the CHP in San Andreas and talked to the commercial guy about MCP. (this was two years ago) He said anything 10,000 lbs and under did not need a permit. My '78 GMC is 10,000 lbs. Most of the old 1 ton flatbeds or 3/4 ton flatbeds don't have dot numbers. Let us know, by the way Monday's a holiday for some.
Jim


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Thanks for the info. A few years back the local CHP guy(retired now) told me it was 10,001 to fall into that category. But I get the feeling there is a new interpretation of the law or something.
I was thinking about retiring both these old trucks after almonds, but with things getting kind of shaky might just hold off a bit longer.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

I have also been hearing of extremely intense policing of beekeepers. Tickets for everything, the state is broke and looking for $$. A friend just got a ticket for not having his forks strapped, plus 4 binders on the lift. Lots of other stories of ticketed beekeepers already this year.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

*From the Calf. dept of Motor vehices*

Who needs a permit?

* Any person or entity who is paid to transport property in their motor vehicle regardless of vehicle size or weight (For-hire carrier).
* Any person or entity operating a motor vehicle with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 10,001 pounds or more and which is used in the course of business to transport their own property (Private carrier).

Back to Top of Page
Who will not need a permit?

* Vehicles operated by household goods and/or passenger carriers as defined in Section 5109 of the Public Utilities Code (those vehicles operate under Public Utilities Commission authority)
* Vehicles operated by household goods carriers to transport used office, store, and institutional furniture and fixtures when operated under a household goods carrier permit issued pursuant to Section 5137 of the PUC.
* Pickup trucks with a GVWR of less than 11,500 pounds, an unladen weight of less 8,001 pounds, and equipped with a box-type bed not exceeding 9 feet in length, when operated in a non-commercial manner.
* Utility trailers, camp trailers, or trailer coaches.
* Vehicles providing transportation of passengers only, a passenger stage corporation transporting baggage and express upon a passenger vehicles incidental to the transportation of passengers.
* Vehicles used only for personal use and are 10,000 pounds GVWR or less.
* Two-axle daily rental trucks with a GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds when operated in non-commercial use.
* Vehicles which are exempt from vehicle registration fees.

More info here - http://dmv.ca.gov/vehindustry/mcp/mcpfaq.htm#whodoes


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## Action (Jan 8, 2005)

*Ca #'s*

If you are required to have CA #'s on your truck you will have to have a motor vehicle permit, They kind of go hand in hand. They are a pain in the [email protected]@ the first time because nobody seems to know what to do about them. Jim said he talked to chp in san andreas they don't know anything you have to go to sac. It is (for me $35 a year) after the first time it is easy they send you a bill. some times flatbeds don't go by gvw's
good luck.
Jack


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

You are right ,Jack.Not having the numbers was the other thing they wrote me up for(that ,and overloaded, but we wont go there).


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike, I had a thread about gooseneck trailers here a while back, not that I like trailers, but I dislike the CHP worse. 

good luck.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Action said:


> nobody seems to know what to do about them. Jim said he talked to chp in san andreas they don't know anything you have to go to sac. Jack


Well Jack,Sacramento isn't that sharp either.

Long time ago I drove my truck to the chp is sac, parked it in there chp parking lot, locked the door went inside and reported it stolen.

It took them two weeks to figure out the stolen truck was in there parking lot.

Man those were the good times. lol


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## Action (Jan 8, 2005)

*Chp*

Keith,
You are right when it comes to commercial most all CHP are lost. Kind of make it up as they go. But when it comes to MVCP you have to go to Sac.at least from here. From Modesto you would have to go thru Fresno. You can just call and they will sent you the paper work. DMV forms but you have to get them from CHP or something like that.
Jack


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Keith ,I saw that thread. I have been thinking along those lines myself, but trailers would be a bad fit in some of the places I go.But I'm not ruling that out.
Had a friend who hauled Christmas trees to the Bay area years ago with a diesel F350 pickup and gooseneck trailer. Said it was the way to go.


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Got to love revenue.Thats why I left 2 years ago......To much paperwork and bull....


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

*Want a bet?*

ok Jack, chicken fried steak breakfast at Franks in Mokelumne Hill says LoggerMike doesn't need a CA #..... loser drives 

Mike, you've got to let us know
Jim


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## Action (Jan 8, 2005)

*Truck?*

OK Jim,
I don't know what Mike drives so don't know if he needs Ca#'s or not. If it has a flatbed it opens up all kinds of windows. But sense he got a ticket I say Jim you are on.
Jack


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Better not to argue*

Just like when you get pulled over without DUE CAUSE!!!

Just get the goshdarn number if you don't want to discuss the pros & cons with the local CHP. Easier


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Right Tom,
Ive learned to keep my opinions to myself when dealing with the law.There are phone numbers on the paperwork for me to call to take care of it. I guess I just don't like getting sucked into the System any more than necessary, being kind of an independent person.
Jim,I hope you win this one!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Flyer Jim said:


> ok Jack, chicken fried steak breakfast at Franks in Mokelumne Hill says LoggerMike doesn't need a CA #..... loser drives


Your on Jimmy, dang this will bee the first time Jimmy pick up the tab.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

I got my CA# and put in the glove box. Never displayed it. Blew the scale at Wheeler Ridge regularly and only got stopped once. Told Chippy, I was confused. When going down the Ridge, I am not a TRUCK. Don't need to use right lane and run 35MPH, sooo I must not be a truck that needs to pull in to the scale with a 350 flat bed. He let me go and said pull in IF they wern't busy. Fuzzy laws, arn't they great.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

A CHP guy on another forum said this law was being enforced more than in the past. 
The first fine here is $157 (got the ticket to prove it). I think he said its a $1000 the next time if not in compliance .
So you get the ID # and MCP. Now you have BIT and EMP compliance to worry about. 
I am just about ready to say F CA. and their moronic laws.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Flyer Jim said:


> ok Jack, chicken fried steak breakfast at Franks in Mokelumne Hill says LoggerMike doesn't need a CA #..... loser drives
> 
> Mike, you've got to let us know
> Jim


Jimmy, you can swing by at 7:00 sharp!  OH, steak & egg for me.lol


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Don't be in too big a hurry to feed anyone yet ,Jim.
I got the CHP application for the ID number.The definition of a commercial truck is right on there:
--
any truck not already included in categories A through M which has a GVWR of more than 10,000 pounds and which is used to transport property privately (not for hire). Operators of these vehicles are subject to the Motor Carrier of Property (MCP) permit program administered by the DMV.
--
No other definitions apply to my operation.I'm thinking the guys at the scales are trolling for dollars.I think they had their thumb on the scales too!


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

"I'm thinking the guys at the scales are trolling for dollars.I think they had their thumb on the scales too!" dont live in cali but that sounds like what we are seeing here in ky. when gas got real high, the scales provided nearly free income if definitions and rules were stretched. if you dont like it, take time off to go to court(several times) and fight it.one will never find the smoking gun- a memo saying we need more tickets-but the cops can tell from the attitude at the post what is expected.


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Aw heck Louie,we can always carpool,I'll leave the tip.:thumbsup:


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

*jumping the cottonwood scale*

T'was back in 1971 , and we had just loaded our 700 pkges in Live Oak calif.(good bees they were too )We were aheaded for home and being a young inexperienced driver kinda held in awe by the beauty and overpopulated state,busy interstate highway..... I missed the scale stop. CHP came outta the scale lights aflashing,siren agoing and pulled us over.
Trooper was kinda cautious approaching the red one ton chevy,as hitch-hikers(loose bees) proceeded to pour out.He wrote us a ticket .We told him we wouldn't be in Calf. for much more than a couple more hours but he insisted we stop up futher, spend the nite and pay our fine before leaving the state.........never did get that dang fine paid.....guess I'm still a wanted man in calf.

Me,mom and dad made it home in good shape.....fond memories of the good old days, when holidays and bussiness were always combined and all things seemed much easier to do


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Ah, the Cottonwood scales. The southbound scale is just a shack and used to hardly ever be open. But the northbound is open 24/7 and is a major operation. If you blow by the scales they will come swarming outta there like hornets, if they aren't too busy.
Too bad packages cannot be sent up like in the old days. Yes , things were easier back then, before the mites screwed up everything.


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## Ishi (Sep 27, 2005)

Mike;
Go see the CHP up by Benton Air Park. I know some people that had good luck with them sorting things out.
Oh when you pay the fine don’t forget the $25.00 for each violation.

Good Luck


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Thanks Dan. Will check it out. I don't have any problem with just paying 35 bucks for a number if that would be the end of it. But there really isn't any category on the I.D. # application for a 10,000 GVW truck.It says specifically MORE than 10,000. 
I found this section of the Vehicle code that could be what they are using: 

260. (a) A "commercial vehicle" is a motor vehicle of a type required to be registered under this code used or maintained for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit or designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property.

No mention of GVW there.

Too many contradictions in the laws.Written by lawyers to assure themselves and their progeny plenty of work.
Maybe this thread is getting boring for anyone not in Ca. but hey you're all here for the almonds ,Right

.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

Sounds like a shoot first, ask questions later operation. Their quotas probably jumped way up with the tax situation, they are hoping you don't ask too many questions.

I hope you get this cleared up with out too much trouble. -rick


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## Jake S (Apr 3, 2008)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Just like when you get pulled over without DUE CAUSE!!!


The "DUE CAUSE" for getting pulled over in a truck is just that, because you are drving a truck. Any vehicle with a USDOT number can get pulled over at any time, on any road, with no probable cause. 

As far as confusion with what is a commercial vehicle AND/OR second division vehicle and what numbers are needed, the problem usually lies with the state's vehicle code AND the Commercial Motor Carrier Safety Inspection Act(MCS). Most states have their own laws that govern second division vehicles. The Commercial Motor Carrier Safety Act (USDOT) governs commercial vehicles. The Federal Act and the state's complied statututes can have different meanings and different weight limitations, causing both overlapping regulations and loopholes.

Troopers are ressponsible for conducting Level III MCS inspectors. This means they are capable of doing paperwork inspections, walk arounds, and weights. Level I inspectors are the guys in the coveralls they are going to get under the truck on a creeper and measure brakes. The Level I Troopers are the ones that you would want to talk to if you are wanting to sort out what you need and don't need in your state. The Level III inspectors just simply don't deal with trucks on a day to day basis.

On a side note from another comment posted:
The Illinois State Police has been accused of writing more tickets because of the economic situation to try and get more income for the state. What most people don't know is that the ISP doesn't receive a penny from any citation that their troopers write. All the money goes to the city, township, county, and courts. 

Jake


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Jake S said:


> The "DUE CAUSE" for getting pulled over in a truck is just that, because you are drving a truck. Any vehicle with a USDOT number can get pulled over at any time, on any road, with no probable cause.
> Jake



Welcome to the land of the free. With help from big brother.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I guess no one in this country remembers "Live free or Die" or "Don't tread on me!"
Just considered terrorist talk now.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

*speed trap*

We have this state route that the stateys work hard. I have bees in the fence row about a 100 yards from there turn around. Last year after the flow was over I was taking honey off, when a statey put a van of people over. They must have only been about 60 yards away. By this time I had all the honey off and ready to blow them out and the bees was robbing really bad. Well to make a long story short, the statey got the point. I think he got it real good too. I had 80 supers on my half ton and I would have love it if he would have pulled me over that day LOL.:lookout:

Ron


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## Ishi (Sep 27, 2005)

Mike;
I think that you said that your truck had a flatbed on it that opens up a whole new can of worms. I went up to the scales last year to see if my 77 Chevy 350 flat bed 1 ton with a boom could be registered as an implement of husbandry. The first thing they did was look at the sticker on the door to see if the GVW was less than 10,000 lb. Since it was originally designed to hold more than 1 person they would not buy that it was a farm truck. I license it for 15,000 because once you remove the pickup bed and change it a flatbed you have to deal with the CGVW. Both truck and trailer if you are pulling one.

Ask about putting NOT FOR HIRE on the sides of the truck.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Both of my trucks are one ton flatbeds with booms. The scale guy did say they could be registered at a higher GVW than the 10,000 on the door. Which would make sense as 1 tons are often(shall I say usually) overloaded. As long as the tires and brakes are up to the job and can pass the safety inspections.I see these side of the road inspections more frequently now,and have been pulled in on a few occasions.Ive seen out of state bee trucks pulled over too.
I was thinking the reason the Northbound scales are a major operation, but the southbound is still just a shack, might have to do with the huge amount of drugs going north up I-5 (thanks to the Mexican Mafia).The CHP knows this stuff is going by all the time.For a while the CHP was busting these drug runners almost every day, till the L.A. politicians accused them of racial profiling.

I have been told by hotshot drivers that putting NOT FOR HIRE on the door is a red flag to the CHP


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JBJ said:


> I have also been hearing of extremely intense policing of beekeepers. Tickets for everything, the state is broke and looking for $$. A friend just got a ticket for not having his forks strapped, plus 4 binders on the lift. Lots of other stories of ticketed beekeepers already this year.


I think that you might be taking a bit of a leap to say that what you describe is "intense policing of beekeeper", but I wasn't there. Regulations for the transportation of skidsteer loaders aplly to all haulers, not just beekeepers.

Unsecured load tickets hel[p keep the rest of us safe from folks who don't adequately tie down their payload or equipment. The same is true about lights, turn signals and such.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well Jack,Sacramento isn't that sharp either.
> 
> Long time ago I drove my truck to the chp is sac, parked it in there chp parking lot, locked the door went inside and reported it stolen.
> 
> ...


Did you get sighted for a false report? Or are you pulling our leg too?


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

sqkcrk, well of course there are not just targeting beeks (not enough $$ in that), however they are "in season" right now. The guys I know have been doing almonds for 20-30 years and have never even had a ticket for anything and there equipment is top notch, their loads tight and right the way they usually run, and no accidents. However this year there seems to be lots of extra scrutiny.

The news reports I have heard lately is that Ca may have to issue IOUs for tax returns and for payroll for state employees. This could mean every permit fee and ticky tacky citation they can come up with will be necessary to keep funding flowing to the state.

Loggermike I hope we get to hear the bottom line on your situation before it is time to trek down ourselves. I am wondering if I need the same permit?

Be careful out there.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JBJ said:


> The news reports I have heard lately is that Ca may have to issue IOUs for tax returns and for payroll for state employees. This could mean every permit fee and ticky tacky citation they can come up with will be necessary to keep funding flowing to the state.


Wow, things are really bad out there in CA. I hope you get in and out unscathed.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

John, Its my understanding that if you are legal to run commercial in your own state ,you should be ok here.Anyone correct me if thats wrong.
Putting bees on semis for the long haul looks better all the time, but you still need these small trucks for the final moves into the yards and orchards.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Well my one ton dodge flatbed says passenger vehicle on the reg and ins and we will be following a big rig down with the lift, despite this, we almost got a ticket in Ca last year for passing a scale and was told we have to stop at every one. In Oregon we never have to stop at scales. I am hoping for a trouble free pollination. Will I need to purchase a ticket to the dance to get the lift and feed tanks down there?


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I was just talking with a friend who is a fairly large operator here. His opinion was to just do what you have been doing.Be safe, and secure everything, and if any problems develop just tell them you are a small family farm operation and don't know all the laws that are in effect here.
Its the truth -you don't-no one does!
Was also told not to make a mountain out of a molehill,that this stuff wasn't as bad as it might seem.
Sounds like good advice to me.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Lets see.Jack,Keith and HRS will be buying steak dinner for Jim. You can email him to make arrangements
I talked to the supervisor at CHP commercial. Then got a call from the officer at the scale who wrote the ticket, with a promise to dismiss it.He was very helpful and admitted that the law has some vague interpretations,but in Ca., if the manufacturers sticker says 10,000 or less it is not subject to the ID# and MCP permit.But only if you are not hauling someone elses property for compensation.
Get a truck with a sticker over 10,000 and Ca trucks are subject to it.
Now, you can go to the DMV and get a higher declared weight(as Ishi did) and still not be subject to the MCP.This will cover overload tickets, as long as the truck is within safety limits.My truck was 1300 lbs over and the chp gave us a break by not writing that up.
I asked about small out of state bee trucks.The CHP does not enforce registration issues for out of state at the scales , just weight and safety issues.He said anyone with questions should feel free to call the Cottonwood scales and just ask.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

All right, thanks Mike. 
Jack has already called to make arrangements to pay his gambling debts. As for Keith and HRS, I'll make it easy on you guys. Since HRS wanted to car pool and leave the tip, you two can meet Jack and I at Franks in Moke Hill (you guys say when but not Wednesday, they're closed) and since I can only eat one chicken fried steak, one of you can buy mine and the other can buy Jacks since he's looking a little puny lately, and I'm going to make him drive. 
Salivatingly Yours, :waiting:
Jim


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

ah Gee, somethings never change, got to pick up Jimmy tab again. lol
Ok, you guys name the day.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*Who's on first. What's on second....*

I wonder if the almond board or someone would consider producing a publication outlining rules and requirements for truck operation in California?
It is REALLY OBVIOUS that the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing in regards to permits, licencing, rules, ect between departments in CA.
For example:
The first year that I went to almonds, a friend of mine told me that I needed a "trip permit" and a "Deisel permit" prior to entering CA.
So, I got on the phone and called CA DMV, Cal Dot, the state police; they all said that they had no idea what I'm talking about.
They said that as long as I was hauling my own cargo, no permits are necissary.
That same year, a few Oregon beekeepers were fined for no trip permit.

Last year a friend of mine was returning to Oregon in his truck and was waved off to a closed weigh station and "THEY" inspected everything with a fine tooth comb.
My friend was treated nicely and politely and told what they need to run their rigs in CA.
They were not fined.
They need their name and city on the door, DOT number, and some 3 or 5 year permit for $35.00 that no one has heard of, along with other requirements.
Once again, when my friend called around for the permits, no one had a clue.

I would like to see all of this in a pamphlet, with supportive quotes from respective agencies.
There is no excuse for all of the mystery. We want to do whatever we are supposed to to be legal! Who will take up this project?


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Bring it on,everyone still has to love big brother and all the gray laws.:lookout:


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Mcp*

Yeah and don't forget to buy a roll of DOT reflector tape to decorate your trucks with too!


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

*Paid up*

Jack, Keith and I finally found time to have breakfast. High Rate of Speed didn't show up. He was probably busy moving bees. :scratch:
Like the gentleman he is, Keith paid, and since HRS wasn't there Jack left the tip. Breakfast is always good at Moke Hill and since I won the bet it was even better. Thanks again guys. 
Jim


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Hey jim.sorry i missed the party,been busy moving,We still have another week or so to go.Hope you will take a rain check or an IOU.[like the state of CA].LOL.DWe will definately have to go when I come back out to ca.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*the guy loves to eat, but not ice cream*



Flyer Jim said:


> Like the gentleman he is,/QUOTE]
> 
> One thing about Jimmy, when he's hungrey, you can give him all the greif you can though at him and he's just smiles and just keeps on eating.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

high rate of speed said:


> when I come back out to ca.


This is about as good when you write the check, "when I get back out".


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

*IOUs?*

Hey HRS
No problem. Good reason for another breakfast meeting. As far as the IOU, I know you have to be in better shape than the State, no worries. 
Jim


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