# First year over, mess in hives...



## TSWisla (Nov 13, 2014)

First time beekeeper this year. I started 2 foundationless, TF hives. I installed bees into both hives. Everything seemed to be going well. Comb was being built, honey was being stored. Then there was a stretch of bad weather and I went on vacation; I did not look at the hives for almost 2 weeks. When I finally opened them up, they were cross-combed to hell. I tried, over the course of a few days to cut and straighten the combs, but it turned out to be a huge mess. Honey wasted, bees crushed, awful! The one hive seemed to have a good amount of honey that I left in the deep body and in one medium body. The other hive was rather light. I put some pollen patties in both and have not been back in either yet. This is my question. What should I do with the all of the cross comb? I can't inspect or remove honey from either hive because they are so badly cross combed. Any advice? Thank you in advance.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Just curious, but what did you use for comb guides? I would have used 3/4 inch wide strips of foundation to ensure the first 2 or 3 combs were built straight.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Wait until warm spring weather, then you can deal with it. Trying to fix it now can be hard on the hive.


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## TSWisla (Nov 13, 2014)

Half were wedges turned 90 degrees and the other half were slotted with popsical sticks.


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## TSWisla (Nov 13, 2014)

I wasn't planning on fixing them now, but when it does become warm, what should I do?!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Cut the comb out and tie into frames. If it's really bad, you may not be able to do it. You can add a deep box to the bottom of the stack, as the queen and bees push down into it, put on an excluder and let them fill the box/boxes of wonky comb with honey that you can then crush and strain for the honey and the wax. You could also cage the queen into the bottom under an excluder, that will force brooding to the bottom new box as they release the queen. Since brooding will start slowly as they draw out the combs in the box, they'll be storing more honey above as less brood to feed. 7-10 days after doing that, be sure to check for queen cells in the top boxes and destroy (unless you want to make splits with them).

Some would say to add the new box to the top, but my experience says they will more likely draw it out as drone or honey storage sized cells, and that would not give you any worker cells of much numbers drawn for brood. I would prefer adding to the bottom and caging the queen to the bottom under an excluder, that way they'll draw more worker cells comb than they would if you added the box to the top.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If people would only use a thin strip of comb foundation for a starter strip they would not have to deal with these issues. I do not know why people are so fixed on wedges etc.

Everybody who buys my bees that wants to go foundationless I encourage them to use a one or two cell deep strip of comb foundation for starter strips, nobody who has done this has had a problem with cross comb yet, and nearly all these folks are brand new inexperienced beekeepers.

I also use this method for my own foundationless combs and mating nucs, never a problem.

Just wondering TSWisla, there could be another reason your bees have cross combed, the spacing between frames has to be right. Wedges done right will often work, unless the combs are spaced too wide, in which case the bees will ignore the wedges. The frames have to be hard up against each other.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

I had similar problem with one hive (with the others I managed to fix the combs while they were beeing built). I just left it like that on one (upper) box. I don't feel the need to fix it. They just have it like that. Next year I hope to take it out with honey  I don't see much problem in leaving it like that.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

TSWisla said:


> Half were wedges turned 90 degrees and the other half were slotted with popsical sticks.


Shaking my head while singing, "Oh when will they ever learn....."


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Shaking my head while singing, "Oh when will they ever learn....."


Mr Palmer,
but who has to learn what? 
1. the ones that use foundation, that bees want to build what they want, and that is not straight comb in the frame?
2. the ones that have foundationless, that they should use foundation?
3. the ones that have their combs crossed, that it doesn't matter at all since no harm to the bees have been done, and the bees have what they want, and the beekeeper can still have honey from the hive?
etc etc etc 

there are many doubts for me who has to learn and what


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

My foundationless Langstroth hives have a wide wood starter strip, and are wired. The Warre hives have a wide starter strip, of wood, glued on. Heavily waxing the edge helps. They start where they should, the waxing encourages them. Foundation strips work well,. Or dip the edge in melted beeswax 3 times, don't just rub them with an old comb like a few folks do. Use beespace always, and be picky about it. And make your hives level. Bees work with gravity. Most of the cross combing will go away. The messy ones? Just wait till you can take them out full of honey. Good luck


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

BeesFromPoland said:


> Mr Palmer,
> but who has to learn what?
> 
> 3. the ones that have their combs crossed, that it doesn't matter at all since no harm to the bees have been done, and the bees have what they want, and the beekeeper can still have honey from the hive?
> ...


Here in the states, the law requires removable combs, so it really isn't a choice available to this beekeeper to let the bees continue to cross-comb that hive. Is this the case in Poland as well or are beekeepers not required to have removable combs so the hives can be inspected by the State Apiarist or his staff?

Rusty


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Here in the states, the law requires removable combs, so it really isn't a choice available to this beekeeper to let the bees continue to cross-comb that hive. Is this the case in Poland as well or are beekeepers not required to have removable combs so the hives can be inspected by the State Apiarist or his staff?
> 
> Rusty


I'm aware of that legal requirement in the USA. And I'm not saying to keep bees like that all the time. But I'm sure it is not such a crime that if in the summer bees build cross comb, that it stays till late spring to collect honey from it. 

In Poland we don't have this kind of regulations. You can keep bees however You like. Of course 99,9% of beekeeping is with foundation in the regular frames/hive. I personally have foundationless frames in regular hive. But if the bees build cross comb that I can't put back in the frame easily I leave it like that (this year I had only one box like it). 
But if You wish to do it "like Nature wanted" You are allowed to. 
E.g. one of my collegues do reconstructions of historical tree hives - You can read something about it here : http://bartnictwo.com/en/
There are also a few who keep bees in Japanese hives (the text is in Polish, but You can see some of the pictures here: http://wolnepszczoly.org/ule-japonskie/). 

This kind of beekeeping is rare since it's not that productive and profitable. However You can sell honey from that kind of hives for more money. 
And its more rewarding as a hobby 
Here are my logs : http://pantruten.blogspot.com/2015/05/koda.html . Next year I will put bees in them. I was to do that this year, but I had some problems with my bees (they were too stingy  ) and had to take them away from my yard. Next year I will have more docile bees there  I will not collect honey from this log-hives. They will be just for the bees. Just my kind of hobby


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Here in the states, the law requires removable combs, so it really isn't a choice available to this beekeeper to let the bees continue to cross-comb that hive. Is this the case in Poland as well or are beekeepers not required to have removable combs so the hives can be inspected by the State Apiarist or his staff?
> 
> Rusty


they are removable, just gotta flip the box over on a flat surface and lift the box off the comb :lpf:...............In all seriousness to the OP this is what I would do come spring. Flip them over remove the box from the combs and treat it like a cut out.


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

I wanted to go foundationless when I started too. I did that with my supers that I put on my foundation filled deeps thinking that they already learned how in the lower box. Each box is a chance for them to draw however they want. So now what I do is compromise with the bees. One frame is 1/2 frame of foundation in the middle of the frame. The next frame is foundationless with the starter wedge turned sideways. And so on. Look at Lauri Millers previous posts showing how she did that. Now they never draw any cross comb and I save a lot on foundation which was my goal by going foundationless.


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## kyell (Feb 3, 2012)

BeesFromPoland said:


> Here are my logs : http://pantruten.blogspot.com/2015/05/koda.html . Next year I will put bees in them. I was to do that this year, but I had some problems with my bees (they were too stingy  ) and had to take them away from my yard. Next year I will have more docile bees there  I will not collect honey from this log-hives. They will be just for the bees. Just my kind of hobby


Wow! Those are дуже гарно! (sorry, only know a little Ukrainian, but no Polish). I am very impressed. I would love to do the same here just for a couple of hives to catch swarms from. Maybe if I set them up as swarm traps to start with--just out in the woods somewhere--they if a hive went in, I'd just let them do their thing. It wouldn't be my fault that a swarm of bees found them гарно and moved in.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

kyell said:


> Wow! Those are дуже гарно! (sorry, only know a little Ukrainian, but no Polish). I am very impressed. I would love to do the same here just for a couple of hives to catch swarms from. Maybe if I set them up as swarm traps to start with--just out in the woods somewhere--they if a hive went in, I'd just let them do their thing. It wouldn't be my fault that a swarm of bees found them гарно and moved in.


Yes, they are beautiful 
If I wanted to work with bees in them, I would have to have opening on the side. There are some beekeepers in Poland that work with such log-hives. It's completly different type of beekeeping. Some have windows/glass on the side, and watch bees build "wild" combs and live on them.


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## TSWisla (Nov 13, 2014)

Thank you all for the replies. This is very helpful. I am very confused about Mr. Palmer's response though. As the summer moved on, I started cutting out bits of burr comb and adding them to the wedges or popsical sticks, this helped tremendously. Thank you for that input, it certainly helps. I am going to add an empty box to the bottom of the hive and move the cross combed boxes to the top. Oldtimer probably had the best suggestion for a solution to my problem and I admit that I have not given this much thought or consideration. :doh: For spacing of frames, I simply spaced them out evenly from each other and the ends of the hive. The reason that I did this is because of those spacing tools. I am very embarrassed to admit this. I began reading some information about narrower frames, but can someone get me started here? The frames should be touching together? Then there will be a lot of space between the last frame and the outside of the box then. Thank you again.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A thoroughly cross combed box is best dealt with as Harley said, in the spring, flip it upside down and do a cutout. Obviously you want to prevent such things. A drawn comb in the middle of a box helps tremendously. You can get it from the box below when you add the new box. You can also add boxes to the bottom (this helps a lot but requires more lifting). I generally don't add a box without pulling a straight drawn comb up from the box below it.


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## TSWisla (Nov 13, 2014)

Wow! Read up on frame spacing, but still unclear about certain things. Mainly how to arrange the frames in the box (should the be touching, etc)? I will order a bunch of new frames and plane down the ends so that they can be 1 1/4. I will put 9 in my 8 box for the brood. Should I still only put 8 in the supers? Should the super frames be 1 1/4 as well or should I still use 1 3/8? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thank you.


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## TSWisla (Nov 13, 2014)

Thank you Mr Bush. I was just starting out this year and had no drawn out frames to use, which was part of the reason for my problems. Can you further describe the cut-out option that you mentioned? Does this mean that I flip, pull of the frames and remove all of the comb (I don't think that I can reuse any of it, it is very badly cross combed)?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

TSWisla said:


> Any advice?


Foundation.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

TSWisla said:


> Thank you Mr Bush. I was just starting out this year and had no drawn out frames to use, which was part of the reason for my problems. Can you further describe the cut-out option that you mentioned? Does this mean that I flip, pull of the frames and remove all of the comb (I don't think that I can reuse any of it, it is very badly cross combed)?


You can just use part of it. Bees will build the rest.
I have mostly problems in may when my bees "explode" (AMM does that in may, they just build in every space they have). Then they draw straight combs. 
I also had no drawn combs this year because I bought bees in the spring on different type of frame, and I had to withdraw it when they started to draw new ones in the spring. In the begining there was total mess  But they just rebuilt all they need.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I use 1 1/4 frames for brood in the honey super I use regular frames with plastic foundation but some times they don't like the plastic .


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## TSWisla (Nov 13, 2014)

I don't want to use foundation. I am particularly worried because a lot of that comb is brood comb. Or will it be OK if I install a new bottom box and wait for the bees to begin building brood in it? 

And please, some advice about my spacing questions in #18 and #20. Thank you!


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

If your going to use 1 1/4 frames you have to get them on small cell foundation or it won't work. Larger cells will need the wider frame. When you have them drawing out good small cell foundation then you can put in foundation less frames. I use plastic foundation in the super , makes extracting easy.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

TSWisla said:


> I don't want to use foundation. I am particularly worried because a lot of that comb is brood comb. Or will it be OK if I install a new bottom box and wait for the bees to begin building brood in it?
> 
> And please, some advice about my spacing questions in #18 and #20. Thank you!


Spacing narower... I don't get the "inch thing"  I prefer metric  Here normal frame is 35 - 36 mm wide, with small cell, or foundationless we use 30 - 32 mm (32 is standard, some people do 30, because bees will propolise and make it wider).
I would stop worring  in May give them another box with frames - under that one, they are in, and let them correct that problem for You


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Keep your frames tight together leave space on the outside . They will get all gummed up if you leave a space between the frames.


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## TSWisla (Nov 13, 2014)

OK, so push all of the frames together, but what happens with the extra space on the outside? Won't it get filled with burr comb? Also, if I add an extra frame and wait until they are drawn to remove a couple of them, is there a specific timing to that? What I mean is that the bees will get the middle ones done first and start filling them before the outside ones are done being drawn (in my limited experience). Is that when I should remove the extra frames? Thank you.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thank you Mr Bush. I was just starting out this year and had no drawn out frames to use, which was part of the reason for my problems.

But as soon as they drew a second comb you had two drawn out frames...

>Can you further describe the cut-out option that you mentioned? 

There are many youtube videos on how to do a cutout. But the concept is that you do it during a flow so the bees have resources, you harvest all the honey and tie all the brood comb into frames.

>Does this mean that I flip, pull of the frames...

The purpose of flipping the box upside down is that you can remove the box from the frames. This eliminates the problem of pulling a frame out that has a cross comb and tearing the comb up. After it's upside down with the box out of the way, you can cut each comb from the frame and rubber band it into an empty frame.

> and remove all of the comb (I don't think that I can reuse any of it, it is very badly cross combed)?

You can probably reuse all of the brood comb.

>Won't it get filled with burr comb?

If you have a box full of straight comb with a little burr on the sides you have a good situation. If you have a box full of burr, you have a bad situation...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#framespacing


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

TSW, if you put all the frames on 1.25 inch spacing, you will still have problems because the bees will build some drone combs which require 1.4 to 1.5 inch spacing. Michael Bush if foundationless and deals with these issues on a regular basis. Take his advice.


BfromP, your log hives have one significant problem that needs to be addressed. There are no cross sticks for the bees to attach comb. The way traditional beekeepers used log hives was to cut out the honey above the cross sticks and leave everything below for the bees. Even if you do not intend to remove honey, the bees still need the cross sticks to strengthen combs.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

To the OP. Been there. Done that. Frustration is a great motivator. I found a solution fast. Saved a fair amount of $$ on foundation. I get what I want. The bees get what they want. 


http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...sheet-of-foundation-in-deep-frames-experiment


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## TSWisla (Nov 13, 2014)

Very interesting, thank you Lauri.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I'll be going into my 3rd year foundationless. What I've found is that wooden starter strips work great in the spring when they are building lots of brood comb. All hell breaks loose on a flow and more management is needed. I did ok but will change things up a bit. Because I am still short of comb with more hives coming on line I will.

After the flow starts I will.

1. Keep my 1 1/4 spacing throughout the hive. My goal is straight evenly spaced comb when the hive is building comb inventory, not fat comb. When I have lots of comb I can change my honey strategy. 
2. Empty frames will be placed in the brood nest or between capped honey frames in the center of boxes. 
3. Some following boards/plastic frames will be used to fill some gaps to keep things contained.


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