# Engineers and Bees



## Kevtater (May 17, 2013)

I've read several articles on personality traits of bee keepers, in that context I'm a walking stereotype. The recent discussion on thermodynamics of a cluster/hive is one that's been playing out in my head for years now. I'm also an engineer and fit some of those stereotypes as well, inteoverted, socially awkward etc. I've seen a few others make reference a science/engineering background here on beesource over the last year so I thought I'd ask the question, how many of you have a background in science or engineering?

BS Chemical Engineering, Colorado School of Mines, 2006.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Guilty, and also evidently guilty of triggering your question. Electrical engineering technology and biology degrees, Va Tech, 1970's, career includes nuclear rocket science
I'm hardly introverted though. Science fiction author, don't mind speaking to large crowds. Socially_ inept_, maybe.


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## Kevtater (May 17, 2013)

Yes I saw your recent post, but it was hardly the first. There are others, who's posts just stand out, without directly stating their background.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Our local beekeeper's assocation's outgoing president is a young woman I had the pleasure of chatting with at a meet-and-greet last fall. Turns out she's a mathematical physicist. Another physicist I hang out with is an avid beekeeper. I told him about this young lady and he wanted to know if she was available.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Wildlife biologist.
I'm not what I would call socially awkward, but then again that's my opinion. I'm constantly speaking with the public on the job. 
My neighbor, who is a beekeeper is also a biologist.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Mechanical Engineering from The Ohio State University. I personally know just one other engineer beekeeper. I wouldn't say theres just one profession, our club is pretty diverse, we have construction, farmers, "good ole boys", stay at home mom, newspaper columnist, secretaries, retired folks, UAW autoworker, natural food store manager, docs, radiologist...list goes


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## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

Civil Engineer. My son, also a beekeeper, has a Masters on Physics.


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## AugeredIn (Jun 12, 2013)

Civil engineering and aeronautical engineering. Handle related to a spectacular mistake in one of them


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Telecommunications engineer for a lot of years. Funny thing, most of what I do is self taught. There are no courses or formal training that really teach what I need to know. Definitely introverted, but enjoy speaking in front of large crowds. Socially awkward, but much attenuated in the last 20 years.


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## ARGluck (Mar 10, 2013)

Technology Education and Engineering Education degrees. I teach engineering along with a few other tech oriented fields.


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## ksirovy (Mar 26, 2013)

OK, now you did it! I've been in the computer business for 25 years, built servers, setup networks and everything else that goes with computer systems. From mom and pop shops to Citibank. College Chemistry, Biology, Genetics and an Associates of Science. Not a rocket scientist like a Chemical Engineer, but can understand how deep it gets. I started with my first two hives this year and lost the one that gave me 10 gallons of honey. Well that made me mad, so being my eccentric self I wanted to create a beehive with climate control, I know sounds crazy. The cost would be prohibitive on a large scale but for the hobbyist it would be more like a mission. If you heat a hive your going to have condensation, which needs to be controlled. Requires a fan on some kind. Would need to be monitored, which with the technology now could be done with a sensor inside the hive and possibly even having the information sent to a computer. I've seen sensors from Monnit Corp. they are more for external use but are wireless. I know a lot of people have tried different things and the old story is bees been doing it for 10 million years. I don't want to heat the hive so that the bees don't cluster, it's has been 18 below here with a 40 mph wind. Brutal! Bee keeping farmer that I've been working with said if you weren't over 47 years old you would have never seen a winter like the one we just had..


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## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

Mechanical Engineer here.


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## UTvolshype (Nov 26, 2012)

MS in Geography, undergrad in Zoology and too many years in GIS screen planting.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Stationary Operating Engineer, includes a little bit of everything above and HVAC, Chillers, Boilers, Cooling Towers, Pumps, Pneumatic and Digital Controls, etc... Mostly highrise commercial buildings.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't know how many beekeepers are engineers, but bees certainly are.


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## Kevtater (May 17, 2013)

Phoebee was the rocket scientist....
You guys might like this... If you haven't seen it already...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60P1xG32Feo&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Chemical process controls engineering. Have not worked out bee control just yet.


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## Rdavis183 (Oct 24, 2009)

Count me in, MS in analytical chemistry.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Tool Engineer by trade (also sometimes Design Engineer & Liaison Engineer) aircraft industry. Degrees: BS Aviation Technology (Airframe & Powerplant License - not current), AAS Aviation Management, and MA in Art (specializing in Sculpture, Ceramics, and alloyed steel. Sometimes get called a nerd by my coworkers if it means anything.


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## chrisaukcam (Jun 5, 2013)

Computer Programmer. Part of the club.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Home-schooled daughter of a civil engineer and ornithologist (as the twig is bent...), university-trained in plant science, married to an inventor. Life-long odd-duck, I'm afraid. Prefer stinging invertebrates to most humans.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

SOOOOO---Which one of you guys is responsible for this???

http://youtu.be/XGDjG7MqLik

Don't worry, he's safe, he's wearing a helmet ....lol..

==McBee7==


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Not mine. I will admit I'm a friend of a friend of Travis Taylor.

More my speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBBLT4j6_aw


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

Mechanical engineering and civil engineering from michigan state university. I'm more outgoing than all of my mechanical buddies but about on par with a lot if the civil guys.


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## beemartin (Mar 13, 2013)

Home schooled through high school, natural science degree from college, married to a computer geek with a philosophy degree &#55357;&#56842;


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I have a Petroleum engineering degree from Texas A&M college. It became a university in 1965. I still work part time drilling hostile environment deep wells and some desk-top work. I've spent most of my career in the field, and since the oil patch folks are very out-going and gregarious, I would think I am very extroverted.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Beekeeping certainly goes along with my interests and personality. I'm an organic chemist. There are quite a few engineers who are excellent beekeepers in my local club, but among the best are also those who know agriculture.


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## WaverlyBees (Jul 13, 2012)

Civil engineer from Auburn University. Not socially challenged, just plain old challenged. Lol


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I agree with Chemguy in that I believe those with agricultural backgrounds are among, if not, the best beekeepers. The ag people are accustomed to caring for livestock, and they are well adapted to the constant observation and NOTATION of all livestock.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

My dad is a mechanical engineer and I have his leanings, but he's not a beek.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

BSc, BEd,BVetMed...practicing clinical veterinarian, father was an engineer, mother was a physicist, son an engineer, two daughters and one son-in-law doctors, other daughter a veterinarian. My father had bees when I was a child. Hope I can figure out how to allow bees to thrive


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

I stayed at a Holiday inn. :kn:


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

BS Mathematics


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## Lady Luck (Mar 15, 2012)

BS in Animal Science. It only takes an hour or two of computer work, telephone calls, or paperwork in this complicated world before I need to get some "bee therapy" to wind down and remember what's important in life.


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## Hautions11 (Jun 20, 2013)

BE mechanical engineering Bradley University, MS engineering Rose Hulman, extroverted and generally strange. 2nd year bees hoping to winter over 2 of 3 hives.


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## Akmac (Jun 16, 2012)

BS in biology. I do occasional work mitigating wildlife hazards at airports. Trying to figure out how to overwinter in the arctic.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I was a carpenter when I started keeping bees. I've been a computer programmer for the last 30 years. I took 16 semester hours of college chemistry, 13 semester hours of biology, 5 semester hours of physics and 10 semester hours of math, just because I was interested in them.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Birdman said:


> I stayed at a Holiday inn. :kn:


Lol...standard or express? Careful....your answer will determine your credentials! :lpf:


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## Comper100 (Nov 25, 2013)

Mechanical Engineer also


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## DBS_UTAH (Apr 26, 2013)

Mechanical Engineer Here. There appear to be a lot of us.


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## cwood6_10 (Apr 17, 2012)

Current junior at the University of San Antonio for a BA in Civil Engineering. I would say I am not an introvert but my Marine Corps background of being cautious would make it seem that way.


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## Stella (May 22, 2013)

Domestic Engineer. 
24 years invested. Still waiting on my diploma :thumbsup:

College degree. Currently subcontracting business services.

Oldest son is an Aerospace Engineer. Second son is earning his degree in Bio-Medical Engineering. Third son is heading into Civil Engineering.


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## RCorl (Mar 24, 2012)

Aerospace Eng. (PSU '82) turned high school math teacher. My son is a civil eng. (VaTech '07) who also keeps bees.


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

Electronics Engineer (Va Tech '88). Good to see several other Hokies on Beesource. I fit Dilbert's definition of an engineer - 

"Extreme intuition about all things mechanical and electrical and utter social ineptitude"

The below video will tell you how to know if your kids will be engineers because we all know Dilbert is not a comic strip, it's a documentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60P1xG32Feo


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## Stella (May 22, 2013)

GaSteve said:


> The below video will tell you how to know if your kids will be engineers because we all know Dilbert is not a comic strip, it's a documentary.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60P1xG32Feo


Thanks for the chuckle! I should have seen it coming with my boys back then......


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## toekneepea (Jul 7, 2010)

Two-fer. BS in Biology, and I currently work for a bunch of Mechanical Engineers at MIT.

TP


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm sure the whole 30 minute episode is on Youtube somewhere - titled "The Knack". It is hilarious and shows what happens when engineers "drink from the cup of management" and lose "The Knack".


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

Electrical engineer. BTW, civil engineers aren't real engineers. Am I right, guys?


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## Kevtater (May 17, 2013)

Civil are ok, industrial is a different story. Be careful though, I once cracked a joke about industrial engineering not being real engineering in front of our new plant manager, sure enough... Murphy's Law.


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## cwood6_10 (Apr 17, 2012)

Beerz said:


> Electrical engineer. BTW, civil engineers aren't real engineers. Am I right, guys?


What would you consider them then?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>BTW, civil engineers aren't real engineers. Am I right, guys?

When I was working for the Army Corps of Engineers, the CO said you could tell an extroverted engineer because he was staring at the OTHER guy's shoes... they were civil engineers...

Then there is the Dilbert where the doctor says "I see from your paperwork that you are an engineer. We classify that as a disease now..."


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

In school the electrical and civil engineers had a good natured rivalry. It was decided over beers that possibly they were engineers, after all. As they pointed out, when a civil engineer makes a mistake, bridges and buildings collapse. When an electrical engineer makes a mistake, he\she has a bunch of blown out chips on a circuit board.


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

Kevtater said:


> Civil are ok, industrial is a different story. Be careful though, I once cracked a joke about industrial engineering not being real engineering in front of our new plant manager, sure enough... Murphy's Law.


IE stands for Imaginary Engineer. They're really just accountants for real engineers.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

35 years software and systems engineering for DOD and aerospace. BS CS, math, biology


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Yaah! Must ... look ... away. Love old tools too much!


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## Hilltop (Aug 21, 2013)

Mechanical / aerospace engineering for me. Maybe I was destined for this?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Hilltop said:


> Mechanical / aerospace engineering for me. Maybe I was destined for this?


Just pay attention to Low Reynolds Numbers if you want to understand how bees can fly.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Geological Engineer - Missouri S&T '86 (formerly Missouri School of Mines and Metallurgy)

Here's to the St. Pat's Board!


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Son of an engineer who's name is on the moon (microfilm) with Apollo 11.

Former Physics lab supervisor. So what if I disappointed everyone and became a Biologist?


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Grew up on a dairy farm, 20 years in submarines, in my senior year working on and Environmental Science degree. I am all sorts of odd!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I use to be a practical mechanical engineer but now I am just a putterer.


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## green2btree (Sep 9, 2010)

Majored in Horticulture - but married an Electrical Engineer - does that count?

JC


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

No, miss. We have to draw the line somewhere. Next we'll have to let in English majors.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not an engineer, but Majored in Commercial Beekeeping at ATI/OSU.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Beerz, in all fairness and sensitivity, please, we're not trying to be exclusive here. Well, maybe to English Majors. But be gentle. The original intent was to find out how many forum participants are Engineers, thought by most non-technical segments of society to be Asperger's victims.

So to all the biologists, horticulturists, housewives, and teachers inquiring, ask yourself if you really are eager to be in this particular group???

Some say there is a spectrum of disease in which autism is the extreme, and then there is a gradation through Asperger's toward "normal". The usual assessment is that Asperger's victims are emotionally muted, and Autism means you are emotionally dead inside. Of course, anyone who thinks that has never run into Temple Grandin, who would quickly set you straight on that diagnosis. She's got autism, and a PhD, and you've probably seen her in her fancy cowboy shirts on TV, talking up a storm and not the least bit introverted. 

Me, I think the disorder continues to the whole other extreme, the end on which the social scientists, English majors, and other artsy set resides. That's the end that panic in an emergency instead of working it out, thrash around the stage moaning "To be, or NOT to be?", suffer melancholia, and are basically screaming loonies when things get bad.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Phoebee said:


> Beerz, in all fairness and sensitivity, please, we're not trying to be exclusive here. Well, maybe to English Majors. But be gentle. The original intent was to find out how many forum participants are Engineers, thought by most non-technical segments of society to be Asperger's victims.


Actually, I believe the OP inquired as to who has a "science/engineering background". Lol...it still doesn't include English majors though (insert sarcasm here).


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

The idea being, "Who else would want to work alone with stinging insects?'"


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Heck, the real test is, do you like bees, or run away screaming when you see one?

I personally think most farmers are born engineers. They can fix anything with bailing wire and pliers, design by instinct, and understand mechanics or they die. They also work complex systems.

My favorite engineer in history was Oliver Evans, a farmboy apprenticed as a wheelwright, with no formal education, who designed an automated flour mill shortly after the American Revolution, and went on to develop high pressure steam engines from scratch. I know people with engineering degrees who are not engineers. No knack.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

WLC said:


> The idea being, "Who else would want to work alone with stinging insects?'"


Yep, you would have to be somewhat different. We're all just plain weird I suppose.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Electrical PE, extrovert, can not stand in a line without shooting the breeze with everybody. Facilities, HVAC, Power distribution. Spent the better part of the week switching 15000 volt breakers for replacing the 6’ tall ones with new vacuum bottle ones. You can not spell gEEk without the EE (electrical engineer)


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## Stella (May 22, 2013)

Phoebee said:


> Beerz, in all fairness and sensitivity, please, we're not trying to be exclusive here.
> 
> So to all the biologists, horticulturists, housewives, and teachers inquiring, ask yourself is you really are eager to be in this particular group???
> 
> ...


Yes, I like this group. I raised engineers. 
Did you just call me a "housewife"?
Im also an Art major. (Oh, the horror!)


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Stella said:


> Yes, I like this group. I raised engineers.
> Did you just call me a "housewife"?
> Im also an Art major. (Oh, the horror!)


That's alright, I'm a writer (was invited to become an English major but refused on account of wanting to have a job when I graduated). I've been thinking about writing a story in which a bunch of warrior types rescue a Mom. But it turns out the Mom does what Moms do ... which is whatever needs doing whatever it takes, and saves the bacon of the warrior types more than once. She spots things not in their training ... she's used to worrying about her kids.


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## Stella (May 22, 2013)

Im curious. 
Are you a Mother?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

No, but I like writing with strong female characters and have been suspected of being a woman writer with a male pen name. My wife and I were never blessed with kids.

Phoebee is from the name of our place in the mountains, the Phoebe's Nest, named by a little grey bird that builds nests on the cabin every year. The gag is the apiary will be called the Fee-Bees Nest due to how much money we are putting into the pet bees.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

BA Biology from Carthage College, Kenosha Wis. 

I have backed down a few engineers, they had not enough time in the field. 

Crazy Roland


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

TalonRedding said:


> Actually, I believe the OP inquired as to who has a "science/engineering background". Lol...it still doesn't include English majors though (insert sarcasm here).



To tell you truth, I think a STEM background can be a detriment to successful beekeeping. Such people have too much attitude about how they can save the bees by _engineering_ their bees and hives to meet whatever hair-brained theory that they have at the particular moment. Even if you went to MIT or RPI you are not going to reinvent the wheel after thousands of years of human manipulation of bees. It just ain't going to happen. It's like playing pool or hitting a baseball. Every engineer thinks that they are good at it because they understand concepts like conservation of momentum, angles, and velocity. It may work on paper, but not in real life.

Also the irritation factor and one sided affect on discussion boards such as this, does not always facilitate meaningful discussion. 

Myself; guilty as charged.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm the only guy here who has ever accused Mike Bush of 'transesterification'. 

Beekeeping is much more interesting with STEM.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> So were you a maintenance man, or do you actually have a degree?


You have read my resume cover to cover so it is questionable why you would ask.

Even though Roland's comment has a negative tone, I somewhat agree with what he said. We get back to the definition of an "Engineer". Not all engineers have engineering degrees. The State of NY recognizes that experience plays a part so you can become a professional engineer with experience and passing a test.

Now I am in property management / maintenance. I got my start many years ago in mechanical maintenance and assembly of automatic machines for textile. Through out my carrier I knew many people in maintenance who knew a lot more then you that taught me plenty. I wouldn't go ditzing maintenance personnel. But then I am not you.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Network Engineer, and master of duct tape and bailing wire.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Funny you say that Ace. In the computer VAR world everyone is a systems or network engineer. I started a job and was given the title of Senior Network Engineer. I thought that was special, until I realized that all of us were Senior Network Engineers!


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## OBee (Mar 9, 2013)

I'm the odd man out. No science or engineering back ground. Just a taxidermist and artist. However coming from a construction family I am also a Joe handyman guy that can figure out how to fix most things or figure out how they work by looking at them.


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## Harvester (Jan 19, 2013)

Also Ran ! ---> Electrical Engineer, University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana. 35 years Semiconductor Engineering. 
Total introvert. Too old to care.  
Love the Forum thinking!


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Nabber86 said:


> To tell you truth, I think a STEM background can be a detriment to successful beekeeping. Every engineer thinks that they are good at it because they understand concepts like conservation of momentum, angles, and velocity. It may work on paper, but not in real life..


That really doesn't have much to do with anything. None of the theory you mentioned has anything to do with beekeeping, perhaps extracting. Much of mechanical engineering has nothing to do with keeping bees, maybe 1% of it applies. And that which applies is on a basic level, for anyone to understand, does not require a degree of anykind. My dad is an engineer who designs jet engines for GE, the compressor section and blades to be exact, how does that have anything to do with beekeeping? Well it doesn't. Whenever you put people in groups you get yourself in trouble, not all engineers are the same, not all beekeepers are the same. There are dumb and smart people everywhere you go and a degree doesn't make that determination.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

burns375 said:


> That really doesn't have much to do with anything. None of the theory you mentioned has anything to do with beekeeping, perhaps extracting. Much of mechanical engineering has nothing to do with keeping bees, maybe 1% of it applies. And that which applies is on a basic level, for anyone to understand, does not require a degree of anykind. My dad is an engineer who designs jet engines for GE, the compressor section and blades to be exact, how does that have anything to do with beekeeping? Well it doesn't. Whenever you put people in groups you get yourself in trouble, not all engineers are the same, not all beekeepers are the same. There are dumb and smart people everywhere you go and a degree doesn't make that determination.


That was the exact same point that I was trying to make.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

If you're saying that STEM has nothing to do with beekeeping, then you're wrong.

There's hardly one aspect of beekeeping that doesn't involve one or more of the STEM fields.

The Langstroth hive is just one example of a STEM application in beekeeping. Yep, it was a big one.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Nabber86 said:


> To tell you truth, I think a STEM background can be a detriment to successful beekeeping. Such people have too much attitude about how they can save the bees by _engineering_ their bees and hives to meet whatever hair-brained theory that they have at the particular moment. Even if you went to MIT or RPI you are not going to reinvent the wheel after thousands of years of human manipulation of bees. It just ain't going to happen. It's like playing pool or hitting a baseball. Every engineer thinks that they are good at it because they understand concepts like conservation of momentum, angles, and velocity. It may work on paper, but not in real life.
> 
> Also the irritation factor and one sided affect on discussion boards such as this, does not always facilitate meaningful discussion.
> 
> Myself; guilty as charged.


Ah, not so with biology. Math is a subject that is concrete by nature of numbers and totally predictable. Whereas in biology, many aspects are always changing and never stay the same or constant due to life forms adapting to surroundings and environment, thus hardly predictable at all. An engineer can tell you exactly how much of a resource is needed for a project, and can predict with a high level of confidence the future success of the project. Granted, math is applied in certain areas of biology such as population models, predator/prey relationships, sustainable yields and the like. Basically, the science of engineering is far more predictable that that of biology. I know many farmers who are better biologists than those who actually went through college to be biologists. It makes sense....if you don't understand the life history of what you are growing or raising, you will not make it as a farmer/producer. Otherwise, it would be like a gambler who hasn't the slightest idea how to deal cards.
There are other aspects of the STEM field that have been beneficial too. We wouldn't know the life history of bees without the science, we wouldn't have extractors without the technology, we wouldn't have our boxes without engineering, and we couldn't forecast varroa numbers without the math. Yep....they all play a role, and the successful Beekeepers know it. However, they don't have a bias toward any particular aspect of the "STEM" fields. They all work in harmony with one another so to speak.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Uh, what does STEM stand for? :lookout:


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

Whoa! Had to make a quickie reply, I can relate to the "introvert","socially awkward" but I usually refer to it as "socially retarded". Nope, not an engineer.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

TalonRedding said:


> Math is a subject that is concrete by nature of numbers and totally predictable.


Divide any number by 0 what do you get?


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## green2btree (Sep 9, 2010)

My electrical engineer husband has no desire to get near the stinging insects. Or too involved in the horse breeding business. I think SOME engineering types have a little trouble with biological systems just because they are so complex and as of yet not fully understood. Thus A (a mare) + B (a stallion), taking into account A + B's reproductive health and condition, should result in C (a foal). What do you mean no, and you don't know why?! (Of course there IS a reason, but we don't what it is yet in this case. Might never know.) Bees - same thing. Yet bees, I think, can call to many with the engineering bent because bees, given the opportunity, will follow their "programming" to a predictable outcome, and yet have the joy and zest of living things. Plus there are many enjoyable things you can play with dealing with the systems that exist, not just making honey.

JC


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Nabber86 said:


> That was the exact same point that I was trying to make.


Ok. I miss understood....good to know were're on the same page. Just about anyone can be successful in beekeeping, takes drive, _passion_ and inquisitive nature, a willingness to learn and here other viewpoints. Beesource has been a great resource for me, far more learned here than from my local club. 

STEM = fields of study science, technology, engineering, and mathematics


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## Teal (Jan 30, 2014)

I am not an engineer. I just like bees. Crazy how many are engineers though. Seems like a popular career.

I'm reading lots about introverts and socially awkward...is that common among beekeepers too? LOL. I am so brand new to this. I only personally know one beekeeper, though I am being proactive about that number going up! I'm not introverted at all. I love people and love being surrounded by people! 

I do wonder though, do you HAVE to be good at science or math to be a good beekeeper? I hope not, because neither are strong points for me.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Teal said:


> I do wonder though, do you HAVE to be good at science or math to be a good beekeeper? I hope not, because neither are strong points for me.


No just have to have the desire and ability to learn.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Acebird said:


> Devide any number by 0 what do you get?


Precisely


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

TalonRedding said:


> Ah, not so with biology. Math is a subject that is concrete by nature of numbers and totally predictable.





Acebird said:


> Devide any number by 0 what do you get?


Division by zero is totally predictable. It is undefined every single time. Do you think that is going to change and become unpredictable?


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Teal said:


> I do wonder though, do you HAVE to be good at science or math to be a good beekeeper? I hope not, because neither are strong points for me.


If you want to be a good beekeeper, I would say that you will need to have a knack for being observational about what is going on in your bee yard. Just knowing science or math doesn't help unless you know how to apply them. Therefore, your success at beekeeping will depend on your knowledge of those subjects,but not solely. 
Again, I personally know some farmers who would blow away many biologists, engineers, and geneticists, and even bankers with their knowledge. Needless to say, they are VERY VERY successful with their operations because they knew how to apply that knowledge to their goals. 
As a matter of fact, this rule can be and is applied to everything else in life.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

TalonRedding..:thumbsup:


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## Teal (Jan 30, 2014)

TalonRedding said:


> If you want to be a good beekeeper, I would say that you will need to have a knack for being observational about what is going on in your bee yard. Just knowing science or math doesn't help unless you know how to apply them. Therefore, your success at beekeeping will depend on your knowledge of those subjects,but not solely.
> Again, I personally know some farmers who would blow away many biologists, engineers, and geneticists, and even bankers with their knowledge. Needless to say, they are VERY VERY successful with their operations because they knew how to apply that knowledge to their goals.
> As a matter of fact, this rule can be and is applied to everything else in life.


I like how you put this, thank you. &#55357;&#56842;


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Nabber86 said:


> Anyway for further clarification, I never said that science has nothing to do with the advancement of beekeeping, you and others have misread that.


I think I understand what you are saying. Sometimes, people become tunnel visioned in the way they look at problems and ways to solve the problems. And yes, some think they can re-invent the wheel even when it doesn't need it. As a result, they think that their possible solution is the only one out there, which of course, is absolutely absurd.
The best thing everyone can do is to be open minded and hear other people out, even if they disagree. Collaboration with one another is how Beekeepers will solve their problems, in the past, now and in the future. It's also not a good thing to take criticism personally (not at all implying that you are). 
I think the reason there are so many engineers and scientists in beekeeping is because they are problem solvers by nature, and beekeeping fits the bill for them to do on the side. It's the perfect escape so to speak. Coincidently, they figure something out and decide to share what they found with others. Sometimes, what they find is accepted with loving arms and other times it is rejected with a swift kick to the seat of the pants.


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

I am an electrician currently with a degree in computer science and have worked as an electrical engineer to some extent designing electrical systems for large equipment and machinery but hold no degrees in engineering.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> You may be an environmental engineer, but I am a STEM Scholar.


I'm just a guy w/ an AAS. What is a STEM Scholar? And why do STEM Scholars look down on environmental engineers?


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm just a guy w/ an AAS. What is a STEM Scholar? And why do STEM Scholars look down on environmental engineers?


STEM: science,technology,engineering,math (STEM)
Why do they look down on environmental engineers?: I have no idea.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

TalonRedding said:


> STEM: science,technology,engineering,math (STEM)
> Why do they look down on engineers?: I have no idea.


So WLC is a science, technology, engineering, math scholar? I guess I need to look up the word scholar. What makes one a scholar?


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> So WLC is a science, technology, engineering, math scholar? I guess I need to look up the word scholar. What makes one a scholar?


The definition is quite arbitrary, even in Merriam Webster's.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

</begin rant> I think the STEM thing is overblown. Tech companies "import" folks and say there are not qualified folks available for the jobs, while there are lots of folks with skills that go unemployed since this companies can pay these imported folks less and then hold their H1B visas over their heads. 

If you ask me more money should be spent on training folks on skills like carpentry, machining, welding, etc. Kills me that schools have put computer labs in the old shop classes. I think the problem isn't that we don't have smart enough kids, it is that we have kids who don't understand what work is, and some barely know how to think. They sit in front of a computer and they complain about how hard they work. Let them work a summer carrying shingles up a ladder and they get it, they learn to work. 

Now we need to import more unskilled folks from other countries since our kids are not even skilled enough to do unskilled labor! Apparently their high school dropouts are more skilled than our high school dropouts.

Schools spend money to give computers to kids that have nicer computers at home, but really the schools don't know how to teach them how to use the computers in the first place. 

</end of rant>


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

This is an interesting thread, surprising how many engineers are into beekeeping.
Could see it might be an interesting thread by looking at the tag.

WLC, well done, you always seem to be very popular with your wealth of knowledge.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm just a guy w/ an AAS. What is a STEM Scholar? And why do STEM Scholars look down on environmental engineers?


STEM is just a term for the related areas of study that includes science , technology, engineering and math. The term originates from collage as in, I am a STEM major. It is used as a collective term just as, I am a liberal arts major. I have never heard the term STEM Scholar. I suspect it is a an ego enhancing term that is intended to project superiority from an internet scholar.


Edit: Jeez, I am sorry I even brought the term STEM up. It is just a general term for a group of related fields, nothing more, nothing less. Thinking that it makes you smarter or better than anyone else is idiotic. 

It's no different than saying you work in the health care field or in the food service industry.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Nabber, me too. I learned something.


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## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

Interesting thread and I'll throw my name in also. BS Mechanical Engineering, Virginia Tech.


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## Kevtater (May 17, 2013)

Wow just caught up on this thead... 7 pages... However it took a tone I didn't expect. I was looking for the discussion on personality traits of engineers/beekeers and if there's a connection. Don't know that there's as strong of a relationship there as I expected. There are a lot of highly intelligent people here, that's about the only connection I can make.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

WLC said:


> Would you also characterize what the Rev. Langstroth did as 'hair-brained'?


I would say at the time, it was, along with the hair-brained idea the Wright brothers had. Your going to build a flying machine, :scratch: Well that's the biggest hair-brained idea I ever heard of.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Wow. This started out so innocent.

Birdman, Stayed at a Holiday Inn. Hilarious! Got a gut busting laugh at that. Especially liked the emoticon in conjunction with it!

Mark, I think an AAS puts you directly in the path of STEM. Even if it didn't, your experience credentials put quite a few of us to shame. Experience counts for more than a piece of paper in my book.

3-D printing? Get over yourself, it is overrated. Tends to be brittle, there are superior methods. Nothing wrong with old school metal forming and you know for sure it isn't leaching poisons into the environment.


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## Lawndart (Feb 18, 2014)

Physicist here. 
Had my first hive this past summer. All seemed well and fed them late autumn. They were active 3 weeks ago during a few days around 50 deg F; then the very cold arrived. Just opened the hive for possible candy feeding and quick inspection. Seems I have lost the hive. 
Autopsy in a few days.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm a member of several local beekeeping clubs and know the majority of beekeepers in my area. I'd say that a very small percentage are practicing engineers, perhaps around 10%. I haven't observed any correlation between interest/proficiency in beekeeping and formal degrees in "STEM", but I have observed that certain people are just natural beekeepers, where others constantly struggle. I know a guy who was in construction who is a total natural from the moment the hive tool touched his hand, then I know a medical doctor that has been attempting to keep bees for 5+ years who simply doesn't get it - probably never will. 

For me: Ph.D. Aeronautics/Astronautics MIT, MS/BS Mechanical Engineering


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## ARGluck (Mar 10, 2013)

Colleen O. said:


> 3-D printing? Get over yourself, it is overrated. Tends to be brittle, there are superior methods. Nothing wrong with old school metal forming and you know for sure it isn't leaching poisons into the environment.


On a complete unrelated side note ;-)

Woah, for what it does 3D printing is exceptional. The things my students can create are nothing short of amazing. Like all techs it has it's place and I honestly believe it's one of the most interesting tech's I've had the privilege to work with (and I have a ton of CNC & technical experience). I also use a bio-degradable plastic but there are less environmentally friendly versions that use the same type of plastic as Lego. As for it in the bee hive, I have thought of many things but haven't bothered, wood is quicker, cheaper, and more natural though I can see places it would be useful.

I also teach STEM, I taught it before the buzzword became popular and I find it to be another educational acronym. If politicians and administrators are good at one thing, it's renaming what we already do haha. I still call it engineering because that's what I believe an engineer does, combines science, tech, and manufacturing.

Regardless of my background which is broad (farming, engineering,teaching, woodworking, you name it) I'm in love with bees because of my farming and nature background. I sometimes found myself out in my woods simply enjoying the sounds of nature. This I attribute to the farm and my mother and grandmother always pushing me out into the garden. If it's not in my blood it was a learned love.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I had a tour up at Penn State last fall, and saw some of their "additive manufacturing" capability. Once you have enough millions invested, you need a more expensive name for it than 3D printing. Yes, the common plastic resin approach is of limited use, but you ought to see them making metal parts, laying on metal with something like a wire feed welder. You can make shapes that way that are nearly impossible otherwise. I saw them working some more advanced stuff as well, but if I told you, they'd have to kill me.

STEM may be a new buzz-acronym, but the idea of motivating kids to study these fields is old. When I was a kid, we all wanted to build rockets and become astronauts, and they told us we'd better study science and math. So we learned about technology and became engineers. Or in my case, one step better, an Engineering Technologist with a science degree on the side. It doesn't matter what you call it, it matters that you engage the kids, and convince them that these studies lead to careers they'll love and be proud of.

I've had some luck motivating kids with this topic, including some who have gone on to major prizes in the Intel Science Talent Search: http://www.tomligon.com/Fusion/Balticon2010.pdf


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Not an engineer. I'm the guy that can open the hood and get the car started with just my pocket knife and whatever happens to be in the trunk.


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## LizardKing (Feb 12, 2014)

Another mechanical engineer checking in here...
Beekeeping has an intellectual aspect that apparently appeals to a certain type.


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## Sonoramic413 (Aug 10, 2013)

What an interesting thread! Hits my nail right on the head as well.. Machinist and introvert.


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## Silverbackotter (Feb 23, 2013)

The statistics of the tread probably are a little bias. As we are all on the internet on a bee blog... That is going lend itself to a sampling bias. 

I won't divulge what I do, but I did spend more than a couple years prostrate to man.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

When I was a kid, I engineered a great bird trap with a box and a stick that had a very long string attached to it. Does that qualify me? 

I don't think I waited long enough on the other end of the string though.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

The one thing I am taking away from this thread is STEM. I had never heard this acronym prior to this thread. I've got to get out more.

I'm a bit confused. Is there a degree or university discipline named STEM, or is it some BS graduates in the sciences or math that self proclaim themselves to be STEM qualified?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

lazy shooter said:


> Is there a degree or university discipline named STEM, or is it some BS graduates in the sciences or math that self proclaim themselves to be STEM qualified?


No, you don't get a degree in STEM per se. There is no BS in STEM that I am aware of. If you are studying in any tech-related field, you are a STEM major. Or you could say that you are in the STEM program at your school (if they have a formal STEM Program, it is pure marketing). 


You could be an English major working as a lab rat and you would be working in the STEM field_. _ You could also drop out of school and continue to work in a lab and still be working in the STEM field. 

Putting too much emphasis on the term like calling yourself a STEM Scholar or any other such nonsense, is in exercise in self-aggrandizement (or is it aggrandizing? I should have paid attention in English class).


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I am a Safety Technician who does Fire Protection and Safety Engineering among his duties. Mostly reviewing plans submitted by a real engineer to check his mistakes for compliance. So yeah - definitely in the club.


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## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

Well, been an Auto Mechanic, Auto Air Conditioner Tech, Machinist, Tool Maker, Power Plant Operator, Large Engine Mechanic & now retired. I also am a "HAM RADIO OPERATOR". Does that make me an Engineer? Bee's keep me from getting Alzheimer disease.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

APL: a programming language.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> I recall a whole bunch of posts getting delete awhile back in this thread. Looks like we're right back at it.


Well, you do know the source from which this all STEMs. Maybe direct communication would be best?


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## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

Got a lot of different experience, but just don't have the Sheepskin to go with it and that makes a big difference in the PAY.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Nabber:

Thanks for the information. It seems like STEM is a catch all term for people that don't have a specific degree, but want to recognized as a scientist.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Nope.

The STEM field includes science, technology, engineering, and math.

It fits in with the OPs intent.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Barry has actually deleted two of his own posts. 

He's getting 'delete post' punchy.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

STEM should never be considered to be an elitist term! It just means Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math are subjects we want to encourage kids to learn. Not just a few elites, but kids in general. Make it fun, make it interesting, show them how to build the future. Get them involved in science fairs and that sort of thing.

I consider this one to be another of "my kids", although I didn't know about him until earlier today. Other people helped him, all I did was write an article that proposed the thing he built as a science fair project.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/education...n-the-world-to-build-fusion-reactor-1-6478560


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

This made me chuckle today that STEM was in the local news. 

http://www.kirksvilledailyexpress.com/article/20140305/NEWS/140309433 I wonder if someone there is on beesource?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm starting to wonder if I'm the first one to ever use the term 'STEM' on BeeSource.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

WLC said:


> I'm starting to wonder if I'm the first one to ever use the term 'STEM' on BeeSource.


Yes you are the first one to ever use the term. 

I think it started here back in February:




Nabber86 said:


> To tell you truth, I think a STEM background can be a detriment to successful beekeeping. Such people have too much attitude about how they can save the bees by engineering their bees and hives to meet whatever hair-brained theory that they have at the particular moment. Even if you went to MIT or RPI you are not going to reinvent the wheel after thousands of years of human manipulation of bees. It just ain't going to happen. It's like playing pool or hitting a baseball. Every engineer thinks that they are good at it because they understand concepts like conservation of momentum, angles, and velocity. It may work on paper, but not in real life.
> 
> 
> Also the irritation factor and one sided affect on discussion boards such as this, does not always facilitate meaningful discussion.
> ...



:digging::digging:


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

DanielD said:


> This made me chuckle today that STEM was in the local news.
> 
> http://www.kirksvilledailyexpress.com/article/20140305/NEWS/140309433 I wonder if someone there is on beesource?


I also had a chuckle when I read the story. My daughter is going to Truman State this fall to study psychology. I couldn't convince her to go to Rolla and do the STEM thing.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Found this at the Musical Instrument Museum in Phoenix last week. Note the 11+ mile range!


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

deknow,
That gives me hope being a beekeeper. I have a small business and I build the replica Tangley Calliope as well as some other models. It's a small business, but it's been going for almost 30 years. I am not the original owner of the business, but worked with him for most of those years. 

http://minercompany.com/


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

That's terrific! In some of my former 'lives', I've been a flute/piccolo maker (Haynes, Powell, Burkart) and built/restored/recorded/performed with classic analog synthesis equipment. 

I met my wife when I built a theremin from a kit and found a local theremin band that was looking for another theremin player (one of the 3 was moving to the UK).

deknow


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

deknow said:


> That's terrific! In some of my former 'lives', I've been a flute/piccolo maker (Haynes, Powell, Burkart) and built/restored/recorded/performed with classic analog synthesis equipment.
> 
> I met my wife when I built a theremin from a kit and found a local theremin band that was looking for another theremin player (one of the 3 was moving to the UK).
> 
> deknow


I can't help but smile at your theremin experience. I am trying to visualize a theremin band. I only met one guy ever that played, or even mentioned a theremin. Until then I didn't know they existed. He also played the Glass Armonica and just about any unusual instrument you can find. 
I'm really not a big musical guy. I mostly just know how to build things. I did build a violin lately though that plays ok.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Sheldon from the Big Bang played one a while back. I had never seen one played. It is very weird.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

http://www.wobblymusic.com/lothars/LotharsTunes.php

Oscillate My Metallic Sonata and Connected are probably the best recordings (I did 'engineer' both of these, to stay OT).
Connected was reviewed in Playboy!



> Despite its overuse, soundscape is an apt description of the Lothars' music — vistas of sound that are more atmosphere than plot. On their new CD, Connected (Wobbly Music), they wring sadness and beauty from such instruments as the hammer dulcimer and the theremin. The live improvisations sound like elegies for Martians, or love songs for robots.
> 
> -- Anaheed Alani


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

deknow said:


> http://www.wobblymusic.com/lothars/LotharsTunes.php
> 
> Oscillate My Metallic Sonata and Connected are probably the best recordings (I did 'engineer' both of these, to stay OT).
> Connected was reviewed in Playboy!


It sounds like they could "engineer" some music for an Alfred Hitchcock movie about killer bees.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

The beez told me, they love this music on a cold winters night, while all huddled
in a cluster, sharing heat....

http://youtu.be/w5qf9O6c20o

I once worked a bit for a pipe organ maker in south dakota, making wind chests and
wooden round things--LOL--Which qualifies me for nothing, other than talking to
the BEEZ--;/

==McBee7==


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

McBee7 said:


> The beez told me, they love this music on a cold winters night, while all huddled
> in a cluster, sharing heat....
> 
> http://youtu.be/w5qf9O6c20o
> ...



Hmmm....... Wooden round things. Interesting.


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## ukewarrior (Jul 4, 2013)

BS, Computer Science, OSU.
Master Engineer at HP.

Yep, nerd alert.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Undergrad Biology Major, Chem. 
Social awkward to quirkiness, But that's being an INFJ


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Sunday Farmer said:


> Undergrad Biology Major, Chem.
> Social awkward to quirkiness, But that's being an INFJ


What is an IHFJ?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

IHFJ reference:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INFJ


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

INFJ 
Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, Judgment
It's a Meyer's-Briggs character. 
INFJs are just known to be socially awkward. 
I always get "He's weird till you get to know him. He's still weird, but cool"


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

lazy shooter said:


> What is an IHFJ?


I will have you know that I am an IHFJ Scholar, so you had better treat me with the respect that I am due.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Nabber86 said:


> I will have you know that I am an IHFJ Scholar, so you had better treat me with the respect that I am due.


Um...excuse me...do you know who _I_ am?

I'm the president of the International Society for the Standardization and Taking Seriously all Acronyms. (ISSTSA).

As your acronym is protected by my organization by contract, you are required under Section 37, Subheading 83d to pay _me_ the respect _I'm_ due.

deknow (hmmm, that was a strong cup of coffee)


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

shannonswyatt said:


> Funny you say that Ace. In the computer VAR world everyone is a systems or network engineer. I started a job and was given the title of Senior Network Engineer. I thought that was special, until I realized that all of us were Senior Network Engineers!


That's such a load of BS. I have CS degree and worked at DBA, programmer, and SA and never considered myself an engineer by any stretch of the imagination. I actually TEST my theories to ensure they work correctly!


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

deknow said:


> Um...excuse me...do you know who _I_ am?
> 
> I'm the president of the International Society for the Standardization and Taking Seriously all Acronyms. (ISSTSA).
> 
> ...


I don't owe you anything for the acronym BS do I? Dang it I hate it when that happens.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

Mechanical engineer here. at my last property, the local beek down the road that help me get started was also an engineer.


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## senilking (Mar 8, 2014)

Civil Engineer here. I guess we engineers always have to try something, and beekeeping just seems crazy and difficult enough to keep us entertained.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

deknow said:


> Um...excuse me...do you know who _I_ am?
> 
> I'm the president of the International Society for the Standardization and Taking Seriously all Acronyms. (ISSTSA).


At a glance I read that as ASTM and was scared for a moment.


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## Troutsqueezer (May 17, 2005)

I retired two years ago. When people used to ask me what I did for a living, I shortened it to something they would have no problem understanding: "I design chips". Everyone knows what a chip is and that satisfied them perfectly. They don't need to know that there are many aspects of engineering and science that go into designing a "chip". Chemical, mechanical, thermal, electrical, software to name just a few. My official title was Package Design and Analysis Engineer. Would you know what that was if I told you? At first, I tried to explain to those who asked what a substrate was and the role I played in designing one but eyes glazed over ten words into it. 

I'll explain a little further here: In a nutshell, I held meetings where all the various types of engineers would get together and discuss problems they were having with design, layout, schedules, laboratory results along with any company expectations in terms of performance for upcoming projects. This being Intel Corp. the last project I was in charge of was Intel's Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge mobile platforms. 

I can't tell ya how happy I was to retire because at Intel, if you slow down, you're out. So there was no resting on coat tails, something I would have liked to have done. I had a big meeting my last day there and I would much rather have spent that time down in the cafeteria relaxing in the massage chairs they have down there. :thumbsup:


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## DmacShack (May 22, 2013)

Double BS Agronomy and Agricultural Economics
Auburn University 

Graduated 2 years ago. Now working at a bank as an Ag consultant and lender. Glad to see some fellow science nerds here. Really love the beekeeping community. 

I use my position to really encourage farmers to spray after 3pm for the bees. Also trying to get them to not spray blooming cotton at all. I've met farmers I didn't like but I have yet to meet a beekeeper I didn't like.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Troutsqueezer said:


> I was to retire because at Intel, if you slow down, you're out.


NOt unlike most corporations in the big league. Even if you don't slow down they want you to be a technical writer, salesman, politician, and yes man. Engineering and the ability to make things right the first time have very little to do with your advancement. You are better off leaning the art of tactfully blaming other for your mistakes. You will find there is always enough time and money to do things over but there is never enough time to do things right.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> You will find there is always enough time and money to do things over but there is never enough time to do things right.


Not with that attitude.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Engineering and the ability to make things right the first time have very little to do with your advancement. You are better off leaning the art of tactfully blaming other for your mistakes.


Wow. Well I have to say in the 19 years I have been in the computer industry I have to say I have NOT found the above true. With that stated I also found what Ace just stated is true in this part of NY, which completely disgusts me!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

In my younger years I got the opportunity to work with a bunch of elders who had the same complaint about the corporate world. I was too young to compare but valued everything that they taught me. I moved back to upstate NY and joined the corporate world and it was quite an eye opener. I don't think it has anything to do with NY. I am thoroughly convinced it has every thing to do with the corporate world. Think "Congress" it operates very much the same way. Totally dysfunctional but they all make a killing.


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## Troutsqueezer (May 17, 2005)

Acebird said:


> NOt unlike most corporations in the big league. Even if you don't slow down they want you to be a technical writer, salesman, politician, and yes man. Engineering and the ability to make things right the first time have very little to do with your advancement. You are better off leaning the art of tactfully blaming other for your mistakes. You will find there is always enough time and money to do things over but there is never enough time to do things right.


As you can imagine, any mistakes designing microprocessors can cost millions of dollars. I made a mistake once that cost $3M. When that happens, as is the case with any mistake even if it only cost the company a little bit of lost time, you have to write white papers explaining every detail of how the mistake occurred. A committee is assigned and every detail gets explored with you at the center. You'd better have a plan ready that spells out how it will never happen again and back it up with plenty of data. Most projects at Intel eventually get ZBB'd. A term they use meaning it is no longer feasible. They get about 6 months into it and suddenly it vanishes because of changing marketplaces, technology/cost obstacles, etc. Work is to be discontinued at once. Only a few designs make it to mass production. Luckily, in my career there, most of my projects were ZBB'd, same with all the engineers. It was always a relief because it meant I was good for another few months without worrying about something going wrong. There were a lot of perks working there but I never felt warm and fuzzy and secure in my position.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Acebird said:


> Engineering and the ability to make things right the first time have very little to do with your advancement.


Oh my! Ace, I think you need a vacation get out an blow the stink off. You need to shake things up a bit.

Not sure what engineering experience you really have, but I can assure you, having worked for 3 different firms, you don't have a clue. EVERY place I worked advancement had EVERYTHING to do with your ability to do engineering. Not saying its total nirvana, but a far cry from the picture you're trying paint.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Even if you don't slow down they want you to be a technical writer, salesman, politician, and yes man.


So big time beekeeper don't work as hard as corporate suits? Work is work. It doesn't matter if you work in a big corporation or raise bees for a living. Work is a huge inconvenience either ether way. I guess your basic attitude is that working hard is bad.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> You are better off leaning the art of tactfully blaming other for your mistakes.

I was working (as a contractor) for a small very agile company that was very profitable. Of course, it got bought up by a very large ungainly company that was not profitable. The corporate culture of the small agile company was very much that we were a team and helping one another. The coporate culture of the large company was very much a culture of "how do we make sure we don't get blamed when this fails". I wish it would at least have been "if this fails" but it wasn't. It seemd a sure thing it would fail. I can't handle that attitutde.

This would have been an improvement but would fit perfectly in that environment:
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2007-02-04/


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> I guess your basic attitude is that working hard is bad.


Boy did you miss it ... I feel as bad as my English might be Mr. Bush got the message I was trying to convey correct. And I mimic his feelings.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I should have realized that IHFJ was cloaked around psychology. In reading the reference on this acronym, I have determined it is about as meaningful as the FES, Flat Earth Society. But I do appreciate Deknow maintaining the presidency of the ISSTSA. It appears his services are badly needed with such esteemed societies as STEM and IHFJ.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

As a petroleum engineer, I skipped much of the committee and meeting governance. When I have a problem big enough for it to go before a committee, I will have pulled the bit into the casing and be circulating at a cost of approximately 60 grand a day. Someone's budget is absorbing this hickey. That person will spur some immediate action, so I don't go through days and weeks of meetings.

There have been times in my life where I presented proposed drilling projects and those proposals produced many meetings prior to starting the project. Our company has drilled many wells for chemical companies, and they take a lot of fore play. I'll be 75 in a few days, and I hope to never attend another meeting, but I probably will as I have a couple of drilling jobs this year. I only work about 60 or 70 days per year.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Troutsqueezer said:


> As you can imagine, any mistakes designing microprocessors can cost millions of dollars. I made a mistake once that cost $3M. When that happens, as is the case with any mistake even if it only cost the company a little bit of lost time, you have to write white papers explaining every detail of how the mistake occurred. A committee is assigned and every detail gets explored with you at the center. You'd better have a plan ready that spells out how it will never happen again and back it up with plenty of data. Most projects at Intel eventually get ZBB'd. A term they use meaning it is no longer feasible. They get about 6 months into it and suddenly it vanishes because of changing marketplaces, technology/cost obstacles, etc. Work is to be discontinued at once. Only a few designs make it to mass production. Luckily, in my career there, most of my projects were ZBB'd, same with all the engineers. It was always a relief because it meant I was good for another few months without worrying about something going wrong. There were a lot of perks working there but I never felt warm and fuzzy and secure in my position.


There was a book written on this sort of environment, a documentary of a computer development that was as riveting as a thriller novel. It won a Pulitzer. You would get a kick out of the description of the machine architecture, picked up by the Pentium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soul_of_a_New_Machine


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