# egg vs larvae



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I believe Steve Tabor did studies on using eggs moved by forceps into queen cells to make queens. The studies showed the queens were no better than the ones from 18 hour old larvae and were harder to move than larvae.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Thats the first I have heard of any success at all regarding removing eggs. My understanding is that the egg is injured when moved due to it being glued to the cell bottom. 
There have been recent posts regarding a method of simple queen production where a larva is found of the correct age and the cell wall just below the larva is torn down. This apparently results in a queen being produced. I have not tried this so have no personal experience. If it works, however, I wonder what the bees would do if the same thing was done with an egg instead of a larva.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've done it with eggs with the Jenter method (you don't have to unglue them) and the bees always remove the eggs. They usually don't remove the larvae. Alley was a believer in using eggs, but he was trying to get them hours before they hatched so they would hatch before they were cleaned out. It is easy enough to get eggs by the Alley method, the Better Queens method or any of the graftless systems. But they don't work well.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I concur with MB. I use the Nicot system, and in the early days of using this method, I was so uptight and worried about the right age of my larvae I tried grafting the cups with the unhatched eggs. I had no luck whatsoever. The eggs disappeared.

As I continued to hone my Nicot skills, it's not hard at all to look at the back of the cell cup and see the difference between the egg and the little dribble of royal jelly when it first hatches. I gave up on eggs and work with newly hatched larvae.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearingmethods.htm

By the way, grafting was first done by a German scientist/beekeeperNichel Jacob in 1568.

Schirach, based on this work was the first to graft that we know of. -- A.M. Schirach, ("Physikalische Untersuchung der bisher unbekannten abet nachher entdeckten Erzeugung der Bienenmutter," 1767):

M. Schirach's famous experiment on the supposed conversion of a common worm into a royal one, cannot be too often repeated, though the Lusatian observers have already done it frequently. I could wish to learn whether, as the discoverer maintains, the experiment will succeed only with worms, three or four days old, and never with simple eggs. --Francis Huber, New Observations on the Natural History of Bees Letter IV.

Which Huber repeated in 1789 and published in 1794:

"I put some pieces of comb, with some workers eggs, in the cells, and of the same kind as those already hatched, into a hive deprived of the queen. The same day several cells were enlarged by the bees, and converted into royal cells, and the worms supplied with a thick bed of jelly. Five were then removed from those cells, and five common worms, which, forty-eight hours before we had seen come from, the egg substituted for them. The bees did not seem aware of the change; they watched over the new worms the same as over those chosen by themselves; they continued enlarging the cells, and closed them at the usual time" --Francis Huber, New Observations on the Natural History of Bees Letter IV. 

And Doolittle repeated in 1846:

In this work I often found partly-built queen-cells with nothing in them, or perhaps some would contain eggs, which, when I found them, I would take out, substituting the larvae in their places. As a rule, I would be successful with these, as well as with those that were put into the cells that contained royal jelly, but now-and-then a case would occur when only those placed in royal jelly would be used. -- G.M. Doolittle, Scientific Queen Rearing Chapter V 

Doolittle does not take credit for inventing the queen cup:

I remember that away back in some of the bee-papers, some one had proposed making queen-cells to order, on a stick, for a penny a piece, and why could I not so make them? It would do no harm to try, I thought; therefore I made a stick, so that it would just fit inside of a queen-cell, from which a Queen had hatched, and by warming a piece of wax in my hand, I could mould it around the stick, so as to make a very presentable queen-cup. 

So the "Doolittle method" was not, by Doolittle's admission, invented by Doolittle. This should be the "Schirach Method" or maybe even the "Jacob Method".


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks Michael,

That is why I added "and perhaps earlier". I almost always assume there is some prior art out there before a fertile mind gets all of the pieces to work. 

Huber's work suggests that he got eggs transfered successfully in place of larva and the workers produced queens. I had not heard of successful egg transfer before. A guess from what you and others have stated, that the bees will ignore eggs in graftless systems where larva succeed.


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## Littlestinger (Apr 21, 2011)

HVH said:


> What about the method of tearing down the bottom of the cell wall just below a larva to produce a queen. What would happen if you chose an egg instead?


I made a couple of splits almost two weeks ago, and I used this method on eggs and larvae. It seemed to work just fine with either.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Do you know the name of that method so I can do a search? Thanks for the response.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Isn't the problem w/ am egg is that it hasn't laid down in the bottom of the cell in the brood food? But, I guess a naturally laid queen cell egg is oriented that way, isn't it. I wonder why it doesn't work so well? This is an interesting thing to ponder.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Mel Disselkoen calls his method that involves cutting away half of the bottom of the cell " On-The-Spot Queen Rearing." 

Wayne


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Alley used eggs. But I've never had any luck with it.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesalleymethod.htm#combs_to_use_in_obtaining_eggs


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>That is why I added "and perhaps earlier". 

Which made me think of the history...


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

LittleStinger
That is great to hear. I also have been wondering lately about this, not about eggs or larva, but about the on the spot queen rearing and if it would work out, but I've not tried it yet as not had any long lasting good weather here yet. It's good to here it's works in a split on either eggs or larva, makes it so I don't have to try to look so closely with my aging eyesight. I'll give it some tries here myself if the weather ever stabilizes without jumping into overly hot right away. I'm hoping sometime by end of June I can give it a whirl.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks wayne for the method name and thanks Michael for the history. So here's a dumb question. Why not make it a matter of habit to tear down the bottom edges of a few cells every time you do an inspection of a hive. If they make a queen and she survives - great! If not - nothing lost. What am I missing?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If I'm in doubt about them having a queen I always put a frame of eggs from a good hive in (good meaning gentle, productive, healthy...). If I see a new comb with eggs I do that (they can more easily tear it down). If I don't I just put it in, but I suppose it would make some sense to tear down some walls for the bees. What would you gain doing it in a hive that is doing fine?


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I would only approach colonies with older queens or with poor brood patterns that way. I would have to admit that I usually fall behind schedule every year with unanticipated events running my calender. If I don't get queens started early enough and find a colony with a failing queen, I suspect no harm is done by tearing down a few cells for a bit of "on the spot queen rearing". If it doesn't work, I have lost a few seconds. If it does work, then by the time I pop the lid to add a grafted queen, I may be pleasantly surprised and move on to the next colony.


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