# How Much Space?



## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

How much space should I leave my new bees in my top bar hive? I'm getting standard three lb packages. And my hive dimensions are from the plans on Michael Bush's site. 6in wide floor, 15 in bars and 12 in sides. Thanks.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Give your bees about 10 bars at most to start with. Giving them more room will tend to slow them down a bit. As they pull out new combs make sure they stay straight on the bars. FIX the comb ASAP to keep everything in line. If you are afraid to mess with the combs, you may wanna rethink Tob Bars. As the hive draws out new combs completely, slide another bar between two that is nice and straight already. They will draw that comb straight and true as well. Always keep an empty bar at the end of the hive. This makes sure that the bars can be moved and removed as time goes on.

Hope that helps..


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

I have no problem getting in to manipulate the combs. But, does it matter where and when I place the new bars? I mean is it better to place them between brood and honey, closer to one end? And should I place the new bars as soon as the combs are drawn, or wait until they are filled, or somewhere in between?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Evan
I am hoping you don't mind if I add what I believe is a related question of my own.

dr


> FIX the comb ASAP to keep everything in line.


I always see that when adding a package or swarm, that you don't want to overly mess with them cause it could cause them to leave. On the other hand, when going top bar or foundationless, it is important to get the bees drawing comb correctly.

Could you give a reasonable time line for inspection frequency that takes both of these concerns to heart.

Thanks you
gww


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

I have no problem with your additional question. I was wondering that myself. Is it better to start fixing the comb when it is only a few inches, or wait a little longer until it fills the bar more, maybe half the bar?


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## Teabag (Feb 10, 2011)

Ok, please bear in mind that I am talking about checking for straight combs after the introduction of a swarm, not a package. I think it is the absolute key to starting off a TBH to check this issue early. I generally leave my hives alone as much as possible but I like to check for straight combs at about the 5 day mark after introduction. I have found that generally, if they have not absconded after the first 72 hours you have a high chance that they will stay put. After 5 days they should be building decent comb but you MUST check it is being built straight. Dont shirk away from this or you will regret it later. It's also a good oportunity to check for eggs if she is a mated queen. If all is well at the 5 day stage I close the hive up a and leave well alone for them to establish themselves. Just my view but like I say, I have no experience with packages.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

tea
I kept seeing on both pacages and swarms you wanted to leave for ten days and yet going foundationless needs checked. Thanks for your perspective. I have swarm traps out and no package ordered and everything I read says swarms are hard to hive and keep.
Thanks
gww


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

EvanS said:


> I have no problem getting in to manipulate the combs. But, does it matter where and when I place the new bars? I mean is it better to place them between brood and honey, closer to one end? And should I place the new bars as soon as the combs are drawn, or wait until they are filled, or somewhere in between?


OK, lets see if I can shed a little light here. It does matter in my book where and when to place new bars. In the beginning you are going to want to place new bars into the broodnest area. Pick the two combs that are nice straight and all the way drawn and insert new brood bar between them. As for waiting till a frame is filled, that's the fun part, the queen will lay eggs in every cell she can while they draw the wax. As soon as a cell is deep enough, if the workers haven't shoved something into it, she will. Now as for later on, once you get about 14 to 16 bars usually in the brood area, the bees should have enough for brood. At that time there should be a small comb near your divider board. It will normally end up being your first honey bar. When they draw it down till you can insert another bar between it and brood comb do so. That is the easy way to keep them drawing honey bars out. Keep in mind that they won't do much during a dearth at all. So if you want to keep them drawing away, don't be afraid to feed.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

gww said:


> Evan
> I am hoping you don't mind if I add what I believe is a related question of my own.
> 
> dr
> ...


gww - This is always a concern. Reasonalbe time frame. When I hive a swarm I use a queen excluder under the first deep in a Lang box, or turn the entrance disks to excluder if a TBH first. That keeps the queens in till I don't have to worry for a while. Give her about 7 to 10 days from installation of a swarm, should be fine to manage as needed. Now, for a Package bee install. The queen is caged, I give her at least 5 days total with her new workers prior to release. This means if they have been in the box for 3 days, I put enough sugar candy in the hole to last a couple days for the bees to release her. I then go back 7 days later and remove the cage from between the lang frames. If installing into a TBH remember those excluder discs, direct release if the bees are loving her..  If not wait another day and then do it. As for manipulation of the TBH combs, give them about 7 days from release of the queen. If they are drawing comb out good, you'll be fine. Once the queen lays eggs and there is viable brood, she won't leave them normally.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

EvanS said:


> I have no problem with your additional question. I was wondering that myself. Is it better to start fixing the comb when it is only a few inches, or wait a little longer until it fills the bar more, maybe half the bar?


Fix it once you see it is going off target. White wax is easy to manipulate and squish back into correct spot. The bees can fix it easier too.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

dr

I don't have a queen excluder and my long langs are open on the end at the top. I guess I will do the best I can. I do thank you for your thoughts on the inspections and believe your informations put me closer to not being the cause of messing up. I kept seeing the don't inspect just hived bees but check early on foundationless and I didn't know what would be a common sence approch.
Thank you
gww


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## msscha (Jan 4, 2014)

As one who did not show sufficient initiative, I can say wholeheartedly that getting in and fixing comb early is important. Given that, the first combs the bees will draw may look straight...cross combing doesn't occur until they get a few bars in and decide they'd like to add a bit of curve to the enterprise. I saw it, but b/c it was in the brood nest, didn't want to deal with it. Sigh. I'm still dealing with the outcome as I slowly move a three-bar-wide comb slowly out of the brood nest into the honey area. As Michael Bush says over and over, one straight comb leads to another. 

Fwiw, I had no problem hiving the package at all. I bought a "kit" from Goldstar Honey Bees that included a piece of old brood comb and a cotton ball with a drop or two of lemongrass essential oil on a cotton ball. The company reports a 95% decrease in absconding with these two items. You can buy lemongrass oil for cheaper than I paid for the kit -- if you have a beekeeper nearby with healthy bees, ask for a smallish piece of comb (3" x 3"-- old brood comb works best), put it in the freezer for a couple of days to ensure bugs are dead, then attach that to a bar. My bees happily built it right into the new comb. Rub a bit of lemongrass oil into the interior (mimics nasanov scent -- don't use too much though!).


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

ms
I already have the lemon grass oil in the hive just incase a swarm decides to move in. We have only had 2 days that the bees seem to be flyings and they definatly are checking out my empty hives.

evan
I am done leading your thread off track and thank you very much for you hospitality.
Thanks
gww


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## AdamBeal (Aug 28, 2013)

I had a window in my TBH which made watching for straight comb possible early on without disturbing them which was really helpful. I didn't open the window for the fist 3 days but checked every day after that without issue. The window was awesome this winter too it allowed me to look in anytime I wanted and see the cluster size and how the bees were doing aka were they alive. Hitting them with a flashlight always made them move a little and I knew I was still in business. No window and I would just be guessing and waiting till spring.


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## EvanS (Feb 27, 2015)

My hives will have windows, also. I figure that would mke inspections easier. And it will be good for my daughter to see them working while they develops the hive.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I assume you have a follower board. If you don't, then give them all the space. If you do, then give them about twice the space they occupy.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

RE: straight comb. I'm really convinced that if you use bars with a deep v they don't have much choice.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Apis
I did all my frames like your picture. Hope you are correct.
gww


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