# Something different this year



## paulmon (Jan 31, 2018)

I have two Langs, and want to do something different so I'm thinking about adding a top bar. But I'm wondering whether to go with the standard top bar or to use full frames. 

Any tips/suggestions?

Paul M


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

management is different with a topbar hive vs. a long langstroth. I love my TBH's and didn't care for the 8 frame mediums I added last year, but then I'm not in it for the honey. The TBH kit from Beeline Apiary is about $150 shipped to your door, and I add a long observation window to mine. Bars are the same length as a Lang so you can get some drawn by putting them in your Lang, and then populate it with a shaken swarm from one of your other hives.

For a long lang, you probably want to build your own.


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## paulmon (Jan 31, 2018)

Good info. I'm inclined (for now) to go with frameless top bars that are lang length. And I too would put an observation window, which I now do for all of my hives.

Paul M


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

paulmon said:


> Good info. I'm inclined (for now) to go with frameless top bars that are lang length. Paul M


So a true topbar hive where the bars form a solid roof; but will it have the trapezoid shape or rectangular hive body shape? Some people have issues with rectangular comb with only a topbar. I've put the topbars in my 5 frame Langstroth nuc and I do find where it is a bit harder to fit the comb back in without crushing some on the sides (especially bad when I am doing queen cell rearing in them) but it does make sense if you are going back and forth between the Lang box and topbar hive to have them both rectangular (because the bees are going to draw them out that way in the Lang)


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Paul, I am a big fan of the top bar hive and there is some benefit to having the bars the same length as those in a Lang. I have seen your work in the other forum and you will have no issues building it. They are a lot of fun. If you would like some hands on experience with one before deciding to build, feel free to come on by. I am not far from you and live just outside of Bridle Trails in Bellevue.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

I went the other way. My initial hive was a KTBH, then I built a long lang because I needed frames for removals. Since I couldn't move the long lang easily, I built several 8 frame boxes. That brought me to stacking lang boxes. Standardization has seen the demise of the long hives.

The management of horizontal and stacked hives is different, but the basic bee behavior is the same. I had a lot of swarming and small hive beetle issues in the long hives, but most of that may very well have been beginners mistakes also.

If you want to play with it, you could make a long lang and use lang frame length top bars. This would allow you to move frames and bars around easier. You'd need a cover any frame space with an upside down bar to close the top and keep the spacing.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Some thoughts about top bar and horizontal hives:

ENTRANCE THOUGHTS
If you are building a long hive, with frames or with bars, there are some aspects of the entrance that I can share with you. I have long boxes that fit a Lang frame. 42 in long.

I have an entrance that is 3 holes, a bit larger than a wine cork, and I have never had a comb fall off while the hive is closed due to heat. I have seen a kenyan top bar with a 1/2 in slot 3 in long that did have trouble with combs falling while the hive was closed. When some 1/4 in holes were added, this stopped.

I could not easily remove dead bees that were starting to block the entrance, which a slot at the bottom (like a lang) would have allowed. I'm going to add slots but keep them closed unless I need to fish out dead bees. I'll add them in hives that are currently empty!

Also you can put the entrances at the narrow end or the middle. Mine are at the narrow end, because I wanted the honey at one end only. I have found that if I try to remove the first bar at the entrance, the bees become more defensive, as though I was messing in the middle of their brood nest. I will be adding holes near the narrow end, but not ON the narrow end. This way when I remove a bar at the narrow end to check the brood, I won't be messing with the bee entrance and hopefully won't trigger as much alarm. Nothing like bees coating my veil but still too much bee interest.

FRAME vs BAR THOUGHTS
I was adding bars to give the bees room to expand their brood nest (or honey storage) at the boundary of the brood and honey. After about bar 12 in a long hive (so that would be directly comparable to 12 deep frames in a line), the bees just made drone comb. I got a lot of drone comb this year instead of honey comb or worker brood. Turns out Dadant wrote in his book about using Dadant deeps that if during comb building the queen isn't "desperate for laying space and worrying the comb-builders" the worker bees built drone comb. So it seems like once the bees have the size of brood nest where once a comb empties, the queen refills, and the queen has empty comb to choose from, then the bees just make drone comb or honey comb, not worker comb. I'm planning on switching to green frames because I want to be able to uncap the comb and just put back into hive after drone brood is removed. So they don't waste the wax on drone comb. I have currently removed the drone comb from the hives. 

Ruthies' bees and others say that you can shake the top bar brood comb for mite washes, but they have kenyan top bar hives. I will be putting in a few frames for stress-free frame shaking for mite washes. Or just use the bees on the green frames! 

I have found that the bees filled and capped 1/2 of the honeycomb for like 10 bars, and put nectar at the bottom of the honeycomb. So I couldn't harvest. I waited for them to cap the bottom but the flow ran out, and they consumed the uncapped "honey" at the bottom. This would be an argument to either use Kenyan TBH for smaller honey comb (so easier to fill) or to put in fewer honey frames for the bees to fill and cap. 


If you'll be mixing frames and bars, try out doing that in an empty hive as a trial. I tried to mix them using a board that covered the frames, but I could not easily place a bar between frames. I ended up making a bar that fit over the frames. I will be attaching bars to empty frames this year so I can pull up with the bars. SO much more comfortable than using the frame corner to pull up!


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## paulmon (Jan 31, 2018)

dudelt said:


> Paul, I am a big fan of the top bar hive and there is some benefit to having the bars the same length as those in a Lang. I have seen your work in the other forum and you will have no issues building it. They are a lot of fun. If you would like some hands on experience with one before deciding to build, feel free to come on by. I am not far from you and live just outside of Bridle Trails in Bellevue.


Thanks! I'll be in touch.

Paul M


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## thebrighthive (Dec 19, 2017)

Paul- I just watched your cedar Langstroth construction video on your website. Great looking hive! Because you have great woodworking skills, my advice is to build a long Lang. The durability and interchangeability of 4-sided frames are superior to top bars. You'll be able to move frames between hives easier (since you already run 2 standard Langs), raise/sell deep-frame nucs, use conventional extractors, inspect easier, add foundation if you desire, etc. In our experience, the only real advantages to top bar hives over long Langs is that they can be cheaper (they're a much simpler build, use ~30% less wood, don't require inner covers, and you don't have to buy frames) and they can be built with minimal tools (you don't need a table saw with a dado blade, and measurements are more forgiving). 

We build and sell horizontal Langs, and if you would like help with dimensions/measurements, feel free to contact us...we're happy to share plans. It'd be neat to build one out of that 5/4" thick cedar you used in your video. We've heard of beekeepers claiming eastern cedar helps repel mites and SHB, but don't have any personal experience testing that theory.

Below are pictures of our horizontal Lang-- we use cypress for it's durability, insulation value, and availability in wide widths. It can be used to raise full colonies, or raise/overwinter multiple nucs. We've run these hives for years, and our bees overwinter in them great. More pictures are on our site at www.thebrighthive.com.

Enjoy your project!


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## paulmon (Jan 31, 2018)

Thanks for the reply. A friend and I do this together and we are leaning towards exactly what you are talking about. If we do, beesource.com will be the first to see


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