# Found old boxes.



## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

If you suspect there may actually be bees in these hives, I'd recommend having at least a veil protecting yoru face before opening them up on a warm spring day. The boxes, tops and bottom boards may be salvageable depending on condition. 

Consider contacting a local bee club. Perhaps they could connect you with a nearby beekeeper who would be willing to come over and take a look:
http://mostatebeekeepers.org/local-associations/


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## Lazer128 (Dec 15, 2012)

Very interesting to find old boxes that are occupied. And everyone says bee keeping takes a lot of effort. 
I'm interested in what advice you get from the pros. Sounds like a good find.

Welcome to the site from another newbee.


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## TriJim (Mar 11, 2011)

George --
First, congratulations and good luck with your move. Strongest recommendation would be to seek a local beekeeping organization for their help. If you have live bees and enter the hive this early in the year, you will stress the bees and may get stung. Best to wait for warm and calm weather when the bees have some food available for foraging. It is likely that older boxes will be sealed with propolis (a thick resin collected by the bees) and the boxes may disintegrate when you open them. Again, best to have an exerienced beekeeper at your side with a smoker, hive tool, and extra boxes and frames to transfer the bees to a new home if necessary. If the boxes are empty, you should consider taking a beekeeping class and starting hives - it's an interesting and challenging hobby that will integrate well with your rural life. Again, good luck and let us know how you fare.


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## keeper (Jan 29, 2012)

Sounds to me like a family member may have allowed a beek to use the property as an outyard and you don't know about it. I would check with who ever has legal deed to the property before I start messing with somebodies hives.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

How warm was it when you saw one bee?
When it gets in the 50s and sunny there should be a bunch flying.
If that's the case I would feed them, you don’t know how much they have left on the hive until you can inspect. Mix a quart of syrup 2 to 1 white sugar and pour some on a scrap piece of plywood 20 ft from the hive on a warm day when they are flying. I would also put dry sugar above the inner cover, not too much the lid won’t close. Don’t open the hive if it cold.

If you’re not ready to commit to buying anything yet, you can use a mesh laundry bag and a brimmed hat as a veil, gloves and duct tape, almost any jacket and jeans, a flat screw driver can be used like a hive tool. I've also made a smoker from a metal watering can. I would wait until mar to inspect the hive.

Take pictures and post them here.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

keeper said:


> Sounds to me like a family member may have allowed a beek to use the property as an outyard and you don't know about it. I would check with who ever has legal deed to the property before I start messing with somebodies hives.


As keeper mentioned, these may belong to a local beekeeper. Do the hives look to be in fairly good condition or like they've been sitting there a long time? Signs of excess wood deterioration/condition of paint? Weeds and grass shorter around them than elsewhere? Etc., etc.,. 

See if you can see any numbers or letters (or even a name) on any of the woodenware. If the numbers are to be found they are normally found on the boxes and frames, though they may very well be elsewhere (top cover, bottom board). Numbers and letters could be the beekeeper's registration number or brand. Checking this number with your state apiarist could reveal the owner.

Best wishes,
Ed


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## george314 (Feb 6, 2013)

Thanks for the replies! I think I am going to try and find someone locally to help out, or just leave them alone and set up a couple more in the same spot. The prices seam low enough that it would be the best route. The day I saw the bee it was in the low 40s, but sunny. It was a warm up from the week before.

I'm going back out this weekend, and will take a better look. I would doubt they are still being used, but may not be as old as I think. Either way, it has opened me up to something I never gave a thought to. Plus, I'm not able to set up my coral reef tank at this house. I'll have to fill in the gap with something.


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## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

When you go back, try to take some pics to post here. That will help a lot. -js


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## george314 (Feb 6, 2013)

So I decided to go sooner. It's 60 here today, and there are hundreds in and out of the one box.. I was getting buzzed 15' away. The other one doesn't show any life. I talked to my mom, and she said that no one comes out here and from the looks of it, she is correct. Don't judge the setup to hard. Hopefully I can get a healthy hive out of it.


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## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

They look serviceable enough. Can you get close enough to observe the bees coming and going? If so, are any bringing in pollen? that would be a sure sign of a living colony. Otherwise, it could be robbing behavior. You may have a great find here.

Find a local mentor to go through them with you as soon as it is warm enough. If the one is indeed a viable colony and the other is a deadout, you may be able to make a split of the living colony using the woodenware from the deadout. Starting with 2 colonies is far better than starting with one. In the meantime, you could take the woodenware from the deadout and clean it up/repaint. Get new frames for it.

Any idea how long these bees have been here undisturbed?

-js


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## george314 (Feb 6, 2013)

I can see them coming and going but don't feel comfortable getting much closer. What exactly would I be looking for, behavior wise? 
My grandpa passed away in 02, and my mom is sure no one has messed with them since.


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## Rocketcaver (Feb 13, 2011)

Anywhere near St Louis there should be plenty of local folks to help you out.
If you have trouble finding someone let me know, I might be able to give you a couple contacts depending on where you are.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Nice hive

Buy some bees stuff, stay away from kits and combos buy just what you need. go to "Forum: How to Start Beekeeping" lots of good info.

I usually get really close to the hive if I go to the side, buzzed by is fine if I get head butted then it's time to stay away. It will take some time to learn your bees manner. I would still feed them. This time of the year is when hives starve.

You might want to split your hive in end of Mar (you already have a spare hive) they will most likely swarm in mid Apr, a new beek should start with at least two hives.

Also learn about and how to monitor your mites.

Where in St Louis are you?


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

CONGRATULATIONS!! Looks like you most likely already a beekeeper. A local beekeepers organization or mentor would be invaluable. You can also read a lot, and Beekeeping For Dummies is a good place to start (12 bucks on Amazon). Mr. Bush has a great website full of info which is excellent. http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm 
As stated before, the easiest thing for a newbie to tell if the hive is vital is to see if they are bringing in pollen (without opening it up). That doesn't guarantee all is well, but it will tell you there is a living colony in the hive.
Good luck and welcome to a wonderfully addictive hobby.


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## bobbarker (May 23, 2012)

I would definitely get in touch with a local beek club, do some reading (I'll second the Beekeeping for Dummies book. I use it still, and love it.) I wouldn't worry too much about getting in and feeding them, inspecting them, etc. until you decide if you want to take the plunge. They've survived on their own for the last 10 years or so, why mess with them now, before you're ready?


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## george314 (Feb 6, 2013)

It was raining so I took a look in the other two. (I didn't notice the one was two stacks.) They were totally empty except for little bits or comb in the corners and some beetles. I know they are a pest, but should I just burn these ones, or will they be an ongoing problem?


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

!!! SCORE !!!!!!!!!!!! u just scored some great Ferrel bees my friend. dont worrie about a great honey flow this first year...just get them under control, split them if you can and look to next year. check for SHB if u found them in that one hive.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

george314 said:


> It was raining so I took a look in the other two. (I didn't notice the one was two stacks.) They were totally empty except for little bits or comb in the corners and some beetles. I know they are a pest, but should I just burn these ones, or will they be an ongoing problem?


There is always a risk when using old equipment that it will have a disease that can infect a new colony. The one of major concern is AFB (American Foul Brood), as the spores can be viable for decades. Once the colony has AFB your choice is pretty much continuous antibiotic treatment or to burn the whole thing. Pest (such as beetles, mites or mice) are not really a problem from old hive bodies.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Interesting, a seven frame box with very wide top bars....maybe homemade??


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## george314 (Feb 6, 2013)

This one and one other look home made. From my uneducated guess, it looks like there are four deep boxes setup as individual setups. (stacked two high) and then the one I took the first pictures of. There are a lot of fruit trees, berry bushes, and use to be a corn field. He may not have had them set up jusy for honey.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Looks like you have found a survivor bee colony. It is hard to know how long that they have been living there. The hive bodies are a bit worn out from the outside.
If diseases are a concern then invest in new equipments after you have a better look to evaluate. Then transfer the bees into the new hive if you want to keep them. If beekeeping is your new hobby then at the minimum you have to protect your face with a veil. Then protect your hands with a pairs of nitride plastic gloves. These are not expensive to buy. Use a flat head screw driver or something flat to pry the frames because they are sticky by now. Buy a LED miner's light with both white and red color bulb. The red light is what you want to turn on at night time for inspection because the bees cannot see the red color. But you can at night time with the Red led light on. You can use the bright light on the farm too with rechargeable batteries. Very handy to free up both hands when working at night time. Is it safe to check at night time where you live without any snakes or critters under the hive or inside the bushes? Better check around first before it gets dark outside just before sundown that you cannot see anymore. Safety first, o.k. A 5 minutes quick check to open up and lift out a frame to inspect is enough time I think.
Then you can play all you want with your new found bees. Keep us posted on your first hive check, o.k. Look for how many frames of bees, what color they are, general health conditions, and pests, etc. 
Next is to identify the bees you have. Might be Carniolan though. And moved them out of the bushes if you decide to keep them later on. How fun like finding candy again or is it honey?


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Looks like someone's foundationless home-made frame experiment using standard boxes.

They look fine, although I would have repainted them before they peeled so badly.

If you know they don't belong to a family member, put a note on them with your cell phone number, quite likely somone set them up there in the last couple years and will be back to check on them (or not) later when it warms up more. At that point you will have to discuss ownership. The tops were weighted for winter, so the owner may still be interested.

If you get no response and no one comes around by April, I'd not worry too much, just enjoy them.

I do recommend standard sized frames though.

Peter


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## george314 (Feb 6, 2013)

I found a little store that was more than happy to talk for a while. I picked her brain and picked up a veil, gloves, and hive tool. Hopefully that will get me a look without stings.

Wish me luck!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You can reduce the chance of sting by gently smoking them too. I would be very careful if not using a smoker. Then when they 
get mad there is nothing to calm them down. If you check them in the day time they will certainly be all over you if they are not
the gentle type bees. With aggressive bees even smoking they will still try to sting and chase you. But if you can check on them just before sundown then they will be much calmer compare at noon time. I usually check on my hive around 5pm after they had settled down after a 
day of hard work. I don't use smoker anymore but a red LED miner's light to see them. Keep us update on how it goes.


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## george314 (Feb 6, 2013)

I didn't have any problems with the bees, but the boxes are full of comb going every witch way. They were defiantly there but not overflowing the top super like I was expecting. The one frame I tried to pull out, pulled apart and this is what was inside. I didn't want to dig any deeper without feedback. Thanks!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Hopefully you will have many feedback on this issue. Looks like not enough bees to keep the combs moist. I think the bees are good since they are gentle bees, for now. The aggressive bees will chase you once opened the hive.
It is all up to you now whether or not to save them. Since I don't see any reserved honey, the hive is just start building up by now. If were me, I would transfer the bees home in a safe location that I can manage them better. I would also put in a new hive at the bottom of these hives. Maybe then the queen bee (if there is one) will start laying on the bottom hive. Also, to take out some of these old combs and replace them with the new standard type frames. The focus is to get rid of these bad combs and save the good straight ones. Don't have to buy the expensive frames just the one that the bees can accept on this first season.
Any future expansion is to get rid off these old combs (little at a time) and build new ones into your new hive with straighter, better combs. So maybe going into the Fall with a good honey crop. Feed them if not enough population for a quick expansion. Now is the time to find out if there is a queen bee inside and how many frames of worker bees still left or any new brood or larvae.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Looks like a home-made equipment experiment gone wrong. Empty bars with inadequate space between them in standard Langstroth boxes, perhaps an attempt at a Warre hive, but the bees didn't make straight comb and the beekeeper (or more likely "bee haver" since they didn't fix it) didn't correct the problem. If that is the case, you have not a Langstroth hive but a box hive, and getting comb out isn't possible, really.

Probably no point in trying to fix that comb, the whole box is going to be a tangle of comb with honey and brood intermixed.

I would put a box on TOP with standard deep frames in standard box (or narrow frames, either will work). Check regularly, and when you find the queen up in there, as I suspect you will, put an excluduer underneath. In three weeks, all the brood down below will have emerged and you can remove the bottom boxes, add another deep or whatever box you want on top, then rip the bottom boxes apart and shake out the bees in front of the hive. They will go back into the new hive.

Later this spring you could also "drum" them up into a new box of foundation -- you don't want to do this until there is a good flow on since they won't have stores or brood for a while, at least until you can get some comb out of the bottom and rubber-banded into frames. 

I would definitely get rid of those frames, though. The boxes are fine. The factory ones are standard Lang, and I assume the home-made mediums are standard size and configuration. Get some standard frames and foundation to move them onto -- I suggest foundation because they have already made a mess, and are likely to do the same thing if you try foundationless frames. 

As you can see, bees are VERY adaptable!

Later this spring, on a nice 65 or 70 degree day, you need to get those boxes apart and see what's in the rest of the hive. If the lower boxes are empty, as I suspect they are since there are bees and empty comb in the top, you can turn them upside down and cut the frames free from the sides and lift the box off the combs, then do whatever you want with them. Given the overly wide frames, I would NOT expect proper comb, they would be too far apart, most likely a tangled, solid blob. If the boxes won't pry apart, use some fine wire to saw between them and cut the propolis and comb between them.

If you can tilt the hive with one hand, you should also feed them, you want to keep those bees!

Peter


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## Eddie Honey (May 30, 2011)

How can everyone tell that these are "survivor" bees and not a swarm that moved in last year?. How do we know this hive hasn't "died" every year and a new swarm hasn't moved in to replace them?


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## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

I second what Peter said. It doesn't look as if there is much comb that is salvageable. After the process is done, you can render out the wax. -james


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

You cannot tell if they were there for years or just moved in. However, they made it through the winter in either case without beekeeper intervention, and they cost only the effort of getting them into a decent hive. Much cheaper (and at this point, much more available) than a package.

Peter


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## george314 (Feb 6, 2013)

Peter: Thanks for the detailed reply, sounds like a plan. After getting in there, I knew the frames and probably supers are done. I'm going to buy a smoker and a deep with frames for the next step. Hopefully they except the nice new addition!

Eddie: That crossed my mind a few times. They have an empty hive 4' away. I assume they may have moved around a few times over the years.


I'm going to start a new thread once the new stuff is in place..

Thanks again!!


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Eddie Honey said:


> How can everyone tell that these are "survivor" bees and not a swarm that moved in last year?. How do we know this hive hasn't "died" every year and a new swarm hasn't moved in to replace them?


You can't tell for sure, there is a good chance that wax moths and beetles would make the hive box inhabitable.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Wax moths will eat all the brood comb, but the bees will clean out the mess and re-occupy the space with no problems. The hive beetles will vanish once the food is gone, and the bees will move right back in.

Even if the hive was not occupied continuously, the bees were from a good hive that swarmed, so they are still desirable bees to my mind.

And they didn't cost much, eh?

At least until you start making or buying hives, anyway.

Peter


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## george314 (Feb 6, 2013)

So it has been a while. I added a deep on top of the old hive hopeing they would move up. I left them alone and got busy with the garden until today. To my surprise the new frames are +60% drawn and they were busy building.

They built a little on the bottom of the frames. Should i scrape that off or leave it alone. I also thought i had shb but between lids were some roach sized ones. Any input is appreciated.

Thanks!

Edit: I talk to the neighbor and he told me a lot of info. The property is registered with some bee group, and showed me a photo from the 20s of a guy with a hive in the same spot.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

george314 said:


> SoThey built a little on the bottom of the frames. Should i scrape that off or leave it alone.


 I scrape it to help them focus their energies drawing comb elsewhere. Others don't, it's your call.



george314 said:


> I also thought i had shb but between lids were some roach sized ones.


I get roaches (I call them tree roaches) in hives that space their population can't defend. No biggie but make sure the hive is on the growth upswing not downswing. As the hive increases in population they'll give those roaches the boot. You may want to move the hive to full sun to lessen the attractiveness for SHB's. SHB's seem to love hives in full shade.


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