# Mann lake vs dadant frames



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Assuming you are talking about unassembled frames I would let price be the determining factor. The quality of both are excellent in the commercial grades that I am familiar with.


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Mann Lake frames are just as good as Dadant.


----------



## monrovi (Jan 22, 2012)

Yes i am talking about unassembled frames. Is the design of components about the same? Same thickness end bars and such?


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Dimensions should be nearly identical. Only a few subtle differences in style.


----------



## Ledge (Dec 15, 2010)

I've noticed no difference in form and function.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I think the ML's have a wider bottom bar.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

monrovi said:


> I need to order additional wood frames and have bought Dadants in the past. They have always been exceptional quality.


Very well said. I have the same veiw, everytime I go somewhere else when I know what works I seem to get burnt. I ordered a semi load of frames this spring I think 22,000, wouldn't change my supplier for nothing dadant been working for me for years.

Free this free that... there's nothing FREE. I want quality, I don't want some flyer every other week saying "new and improved the BEST on the market".


----------



## joshk (Mar 31, 2010)

Quality is the same, but the size is a little different. I have Mann Lake medium plastic foundation and dadant medium frames. Foundation is a touch bigger. Not much of a deal I just buzz it off on the table saw.


----------



## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

It doesn't matter to me what what folks may say, I will always say that ML's frames are some of the best I have ever come across, and you can't go wrong or get burnt with them.


----------



## red (Jan 15, 2013)

The top bar on the [ML] frame is a little thinner. I have less broken end bars with [ML] when i'm done assembling than I have with Dadant because the [ML] parts fit together easier. Also [ ML] uses pondarosa pine and I think Dadant uses white pine but I could be wrong on this. I have less blow outs with [ML] plastic than with Dadant also, [in my deeps only].


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

ML Frames are good quality. I did have one issue when i bought foundation, it was about 1/2cm too long and bowed a bit. Perhaps the grooves in the frames were a bit shallow also. Easy fix though, simply trimmed a little bit of the foundation off and fit like a charm. Of course, if I was doing 22,000 of them... and it was a frame issue I'd be upset.


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Dadants frames come from Westernbee.com in Poulsen Mt. I find their budget grade is good enough for the girls I go out with and they are very reasonalby priced.


----------



## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

I did notice recently that the Dadant grooved bottom bars I had would not fit into the Mann Lake endbars. They were too fat, as the Mann Lake bottom bars are notched to fit.


----------



## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Vance G said:


> Dadants frames come from Westernbee.com in Poulsen Mt. I find their budget grade is good enough for the girls I go out with and they are very reasonalby priced.


Ditto!


----------



## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

I have had issue with the assembled frames sold by Mann Lake, only 1 staple down through the top bar so when you load a box with ten frames and later that season when they are drawn and you try and pry one out the top bar comes right off. It happened with only a handful but still annoying.


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I believe Dadant went from a 3/8" thick bottom bar to a 1/2" thick bottom bar to ease automated assembly. I have always been pleased with their frame quality, but saw no reason to change the bottom bar after how many years, just to please their machine.

Crazy Roland


----------



## monrovi (Jan 22, 2012)

I think I will order a couple hundred and give them a try. Shipping alone from dadant was $50+ for 100 frames. It sounds like Mann lake builds an equally good product. Have to order up


----------



## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

I've used both Dadant and Mann Lake frames. I just bought 2400 Mann Lake frames, mainly because of the free shipping. Wished I had sucked it up and just paid for the shipping! Both make a good frame, however: Dadant frame is a tighter fit (maybe too tight). I've broken end bars installing the top bar. With Dadant frames I can put a staple in from the side through the end bar, into the top bar. You can't do that with a Mann Lake frame. The top bar is not as thick as the Dadant frame. I'm installing Pierco foundation into these frames. The Dadant top bar is just a little thicker and holds the foundation more securely. It just seems like the foundation is going to pop out of the Mann Lake frames. Like I said before, Both companies make a quality frame and I've used both in the past and I bought Mann Lake this time, BUT, all my future purchases will be Dadant frames.

Wisnewbee

Bill


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

We are in the final steps of assembling 8,000 new deep wood frames with both grooved top and bottom bars. Sick of the pre-assembled ones from both outfits being put together very poorly and prone to falling apart under the abuse I and the crew apply to them in hive work. 

The new ones..... 5000 from Dadant and the other 3k from ML. 

As I am close to both the shipping is not an issue. Dadant was at 66 cents and ML at 69 cents. With the bee bucks at ML my overall cost each way was just about equal +- .


Couple of observations:

ML top bars are thinner than Dadants. A minus but not much as I hardly ever see a frame crack in the center of the top bar. The new deeper groove in the Dadant bottom bar is also prone to collapse when we are stapling them. Lots of blow-ins from the lack of structure and lower quality wood on stapling . The quality of both the wood and the cuts are far superior in the ML frame with this purchase. Not even close. The wood shop guys in Minnesota produce a very nice clean cut with not even a bad piece of wood in the lot. The drop in angle cut design on top of the ML sidebars saves a couple of microseconds a frame also. 

If we go back and build more this summer or next fall the folks at ML will have won the first chance at a repeat purchase at this point.


----------



## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

I buy Western Bee frames. The Budgets are just fine. Maybe 3 in 100 I have to treat special. I get them on a truck and they are way cheaper then 69c so price them out again.


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

EastSideBuzz said:


> I buy Western Bee frames. The Budgets are just fine. Maybe 3 in 100 I have to treat special. I get them on a truck and they are way cheaper then 69c so price them out again.


Paid 66 cents at dadants in Chico. If you add in the gas or shipping doubt the commercials would be much less elsewhere. 

As per getting budget frames. Back in 1980 the first 100 frames we ever bought "new" were budgets. After that "experience" I vowed to never make that mistake again. ( been kept if I might add and gladly so)  Cheap equipment always costs you more in the long run....ASSEMBLY TIME, LOWER PRODUCT LIFE, LONGER TIME MANIPULATING EQUIPMENT.... Which is another subject sadly enough


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

westernbeekeeper said:


> I will always say that ML's frames are some of the best I have ever come across, and you can't go wrong or get burnt with them.


Ben, look up some old post here about ML woodenware, I posted pics, I got a thousand boxes with frames the stuff was so bad I got a renburst for the bad product after posting pics and making it a issue. The frames had a staple on the end bar going right down the grove of the top bar which bowed the wax insert. Try taking apart ten thousand frames & with a center pounce tapping the staple back into the wood groove. When I asked Stew about this all he said was a machine puts them together so when one is wrong there ALL wrong.... nice answer.


----------



## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Having just ordered 600 ML frames, the prior message is concerning.

Keith; Were there issues with the woodenware or just with the assembly process?


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keith: I would sure second that ML has had some serious issues with their assembly but I don't have an issue with the quality of the unassembled frames I have seen. I do, however slightly prefer the style of the Dadant/Western frames. Dadant has been extremely good in their delivery prices in LTL shipments direct from Polson. They dropped me off 12 pallets of woodenware for around $300 dollars a year ago.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Jim, that year stills sticks with me, it's the gifts that keeps giving. lol

Yeah know Jim, I see "Honey 4 all" post #22 about Dadants frames in Chico.... funny thing he's lives about 10 minutes from ML in woodland, he's drives right by ML to go to Dandants.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

DonShackelford said:


> Keith; Were there issues with the woodenware or just with the assembly process?


Don, look up here in the arcives (sp) I posted pics of the boxes, I had bloodied hands trying to put that junk together. This was a couple years ago, I will NEVER buy there woodenware again.


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Don, look up here in the arcives (sp) I posted pics of the boxes, I had bloodied hands trying to put that junk together. This was a couple years ago, I will NEVER buy there woodenware again.


Like a lot of threads this one is deveating from the original question but the flavor is part of an overall evaluation of not only their products but also how they handle their customers issues regarding quality. 


I, like Keith, had a problem with the pre-assembled frames from both ML and Dadant. With ML the issue I observed was a very poor job of applying little or no glue. I did not see the issue of staple alignment as mentioned by keith. The glue job on the Dadant frames was a little better but the fact they use a short staple on the top down shot just put a weak link in an already poorly made chain. 

Because of the lack of appropriate response both Keith and I have received regarding the quality of the product we both agree that forgoing any more purchases of such is a wise idea. This is especially true of ML whose basic premise was " live with it" which IS NOT HAPPENING with my money. 

A while back I posted questions about frame assembly. The new ones we are putting together cost about 33-35 cents each for the labor assembly just to put the wood together. That's NO glue, staples included. 

My biggest issue is the way wood frames seem to de-laminate in one place or another over their course of life in the hive. To keep them together we are using Tite Bond 3 at the wood joints. To keep the foundation in place while giving unequaled stability to the whole frame we are placing a bead of elastomeric / polyurethane in the groves before the pop-in foundation goes in. This adds about 50 cents a frame to the overall cost but they are coming out as stiff and as durable as the 100% plastic frames on the longitudinal edge while giving us the durability of the wood.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

DonShackelford said:


> Keith; Were there issues with the woodenware


Don, we wax dip ALL our woodenware, here is a pic of ML boxes stacked up up side down to dry, notice the nice fit.
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/100_1902.jpg
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/100_1905.jpg

Don, here is a pic of Daves boxes in OR. Dave has NICE BOXES.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/100_0806.jpg


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Don, we wax dip ALL our woodenware, here is a pic of ML boxes stacked up up side down to dry, notice the nice fit.
> http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/100_1902.jpg
> http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/100_1905.jpg


Yikes! Was that stuff commercial grade?


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Jim, they called it commercial grade, I called it JUNK.


----------



## monrovi (Jan 22, 2012)

That's awful looking woodenware. I sure hope they have improved the quality of there products. I wouldn't have been happy either if I would have purchased something like that


----------



## red (Jan 15, 2013)

Are the or. boxes from Shastina?


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

red said:


> Are the or. boxes from Shastina?


As Far as I know Keith is getting them from Shastina.

We have another 500 plus being delivered from there tomorrow. 

Their cuts are superb. A plus .... the wood is a B+ in my opinion cause of the knots. Easy to assemble and very few "busts" while assembling. 

The product speaks for itself which is a GIGANTIC difference from when they purchased the old John Miller facility. 

They have improved the quality from an D- up to top grade over the years. Great to work with. Call you back and if you want a little custom stuff they are willing to give it a shot. 

Am waiting with baited breath for when their frame production comes on line. I for one am willing to give them a shot once they are...


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

red said:


> boxes from Shastina?


Red, Yes, Dave & Pat from Shastina have the nicest boxes, outstanding quality! They are the only folks that I get them from now. Bought a couple thousand last month from them guys, Dave asked me... you wan't to know the price... I said no....I wan't the same quality as the last shipment of boxes that you sent. Well I got the boxes, once again, outstanding quality, those guys even take a dis-sander to the corners. 

P.S. did I mention Shastina & quality two of the same.


----------



## red (Jan 15, 2013)

I live an hour away from them. All my boxes are from them and they do have good quality. They are supposed to be making completed frames soon and i'm looking forward to see them. It's nice to be able to call in an order and then go pick it up also.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Lucky dog.


----------



## Widdy (Jan 12, 2012)

I ordered a bunch of commercial deep (20), medium (25) boxes and frames for all of them from ML. I have had no issue with the frames. I order the split bottom frames as I have noticed that foundation is a little long and the split bottom doesn't require me to cut all the foundation down.

The boxes on the other hand had a few pieces that had huge knots or cracked the length of the board. I called ML and explained my issues and they replaced ever board I had issues with at there expense.

I am a customer service driven person. I will pay more for something for the service, but I am also not buying things in the huge quantity that the commercial guys are.


----------



## wbee (Mar 4, 2005)

To answer some of the questions here: first - Dadant frames are ponderosa pine, not the other way around. None come from Argentina, New Zealand or are made of punkier white pine.

Second - Dadants bottom bar is 1/2" thick. Western Bee made this the new standard in 2007 (we'd been making 1/2 bottom bars as a custom order product for 25 years), and soon thereafter our competitors all followed suit and made it their standard as well. We didn't have a frame assembly machine at the time - so that had nothing to do with this change. A thicker bottom bar reduces blow-outs in the extracting process.

Our top bar is a FULL 3/4" thick compared to the thinner top bar of our competitor. What does this full 3/4" do for you? It allows you to run a staple through the end bar into the top bar. Why is this important to you? It reduces blow-outs in the extracting process and if you've had bees long enough and haven't put that staple in, at some point you've seen the top bar pull out of the end bar as you're trying to pull a frame out of a hive. 

Western Bee now produces assembled frames. It's a great thing from my end for one reason: when there's a QC problem, we catch it right now - if something's not fitting together as it should, our people on that assembly machine catch it right now and we shut down whatever we need to shut down right now and get that problem straightened out. 

Then there's the so-called free shipping. You are the consumer - you can do what you want. I would encourage you to take a little extra time and do some comparing - just as an example, I compared final delivered cost of different quantities of hive bodies to various places west of the Mississippi and found my prices with shipping were better than the "free shipping" program offered elsewhere. So is it really free shipping? It's your call - feel free to call/email me if you want to make a comparison. 

Thanks,

Rick Molenda, Gen. Mgr.
Western Bee


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

There ya go folks, right from the "horses mouth". I won't disagree with any of it. I like to price around and always seem to come back to Dadant/Western. Their prices are always competitive and we have never had an issue with quality. I am not going to chase a few bucks of savings down somewhere else and not be sure of what I will end up with.


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Wbee wrote:
We didn't have a frame assembly machine at the time - so that had nothing to do with this change. 

But dadant did, correct? With all respect, I still do not see the need for a thicker bottom bar(just added weight). The thinner bar did not cause us any problems the last 100 plus years.

I do agree that the staple/nail through the end bar into the top bar is very important, and refrain from purchasing any top bars that are not as thick as yours. . 

Roland Diehnelt 
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


----------



## wbee (Mar 4, 2005)

Yes, Dadants had a frame assembler at the time and we asked them whether we would need to keep making the 3/8 bottom bar for that. They agreed the 1/2" bottom bar was a good idea and modified machine to accept them. And as I mentioned - all of our competitors quickly followed suit. We still get customers asking for 3/8" bottom bars, and we can do that, but less wood in the weight bearing bottom bar does stand a better chance of blowing out, and our goal is to continue providing the strongest frame on the market so our customers can spend their hard earn dollars building their operation up vs. replacing current equipment.


----------

