# A new look at wild survival and resistance inharance, and longevity



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

The Role of Pathogen Dynamics and Immune Gene Expression in the Survival of Feral Honey Bees


Studies of the ecoimmunology of feral organisms can provide valuable insight into how host–pathogen dynamics change as organisms transition from human-managed conditions back into the wild. Honey bees (Apis mellifera Linnaeus) offer an ideal system to investigate these questions as colonies of...




www.frontiersin.org




read for your self as I am taking a different spin on their data 😉



> To be included in the study, all feral colonies needed to survive at least one winter in wild, unmanaged conditions. We checked each reported colony in early spring to corroborate activity and record overwintering survival (Figure 1). We paired each feral colony with one managed colony located within a seven-mile radius to control for site variation between colonies located in geographic areas with different landscapes and climates. A total of eight pairs of feral and managed colonies (_n_ = 16 colonies) in 2017





> Total survival of colonies over the 2017–2018 winter was 63% for both feral and managed colonies. For the 2018–2019 winter, survival was 47% and 38% for feral and managed colonies, respectively. Of the five feral colonies that survived the 2017–2018 winter, two also survived the 2018–2019 winter.


So spring 2017 they took 8 overwintered feral colonies and tracked them..
17/18 winter 37.5 % loses and they had 5
18/19, 2nd winter the 5 became 2, 60% loses

Spring 2018 they located 12 more overwintered feral colonies, those took 53% loses winter of 18/19

Added all together that's 49.44% loses on an overwintered feral hive round up to an even 50% iit works out well ... 8 becomes 4 in there 2nd winter and 2 in the 3rd..

Now if only 25 % of the swarms that find a home make their 1st winter (seeley) that means to be a wild stable pop they need to average 4 swarming events (including after swarms and swams that swarm ) that find a home  per overwintered hive to keep the population stable...

It seems what ever "magic" (besides swarming 2x a year and the prime swarm often throwing a swarm of its own and living a cavity that restricts brood rearing) is lost quickly in the outcross and the hive dies...
when the same group took feral based survivor stock and did a trial (COMB project COMB) there results were similar..63% loses and massive swarming in the second year


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

So what is your spin MSL

In nature if I look at deer, each doe has a fawn , some have 2 so a near double, however in the same fields there is close to the same number of deer each year. So deer try to double just to maintain.
if bees cast a swarm each year and it survived the colony numbers would double, in 20 years they would be bees in every tree.
To me the math looks fine, An attempt to double and then actual, some what maintain.

We AG minded humans think like "every calf or lamb or foal " needs to survive. In nature it just cannot work that way or we would be over run with critters.

I would think the outcrosses are attempts at getting better, if a fail then a dead out if success then a swarm the next year.
There must be places where there is not an outcross, IE stable genetics, then we would be habitat bound, only so much nectar to make the winter. More south,, less issue, more north,, longer winter bigger issue. 

GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

MSL:

Thank you for posting this study- I did my level best to summarize it below. A few things stood out to me:

1. The small initial sample size and test/control pairing structure makes it difficult in my mind to draw any sweeping conclusions from the results given that it appears there were no (or maybe one?) pairs left at the end of the two year study.

2. The generally poor overwintering in Year 2 for both groups makes me wonder what the management practices of the control looked like. I caveat this by acknowledging that it appears the primary focus of the study was on immune response markers and not overwintering per se.

3. The term 'feral' for the purposes of the study is never explicitly defined other than noting that, _'... all feral colonies needed to survive at least one winter in wild, unmanaged conditions.' _While I take no exception with this definition, I can see how local adaptation might likely impact local disease response as opposed to a swarm escaped from a managed apiary within the last 12 months.

Sample Size and Pairing Structure

_A total of eight pairs of feral and managed colonies (n = 16 colonies) in 2017 and 17 pairs (n = 34) in 2018 were included in the laboratory analyses. In the case where a managed colony was not able to be sampled a second time due to death or other reasons, the feral colony was paired with a different managed colony in the same location (between 2017 and 2018, n = 3; between spring and fall 2018, n = 1). This resulted in 20 unique feral colonies and 24 unique managed colonies being sampled over the course of this study.

Due to the death of either a managed or feral colony in a pair, only two pairs of colonies were sampled in both 2017 and 2018._

Colony Survival

_Feral and managed colonies also had similar probabilities of survival, despite higher DWV titers in feral than managed colonies.

Total survival of colonies over the 2017–2018 winter was 63% for both feral and managed colonies. For the 2018–2019 winter, survival was 47% and 38% for feral and managed colonies, respectively. Of the five feral colonies that survived the 2017–2018 winter, two also survived the 2018–2019 winter. Two managed colonies were sampled in both years, and one of these also survived the 2018–2019 winter. _

Experiment Objectives and Results

_Here, we investigate the role of pathogen infections and immune gene expression in the survival of feral and managed honey bees to answer the following questions: 

(1) are feral colonies reservoirs of pathogens with increased levels of pathogens compared to managed colonies?; _

*A. While we did not investigate the transmission efficiencies of pathogens from feral to managed honey bees, our results provide support for the ability of feral colonies to serve as reservoirs of DWV.*

_(2) do increased pathogen levels lead to higher expression of immune genes in feral colonies than in managed colonies?; _

*A. We also found evidence of higher immune gene expression in feral colonies, even at timepoints when DWV levels were similar between managed and feral colonies. Further analysis of all colonies revealed that levels of DWV infection were positively correlated with the expression of hymenoptaecin in the spring and N. ceranae levels were correlated with defensin-1 and pgrp-s2 in the fall. The strength of correlations was low suggesting additional factors such as genetic background and environmental conditions play an important role in immune phenotypes.*

_(3) is immune gene expression correlated with survival of honey bee colonies?_

*A. Last, we found significant associations between the expression of two immune genes (hymenoptaecin and vago) and survival in both feral and managed colonies. These genes have been previously identified as differentially expressed in virus-infected honey bees, but this is the first report of expression being correlated with reduced host mortality.*


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Gray Goose said:


> We AG minded humans think like "every calf or lamb or foal " needs to survive. In nature it just cannot work that way or we would be over run with critters.


Exactly, we trade relance on animal husbandry for survival for improved “productive” traits we desire. 

What the math means is each 1 that over wintered colony becomes 3, then a winter loss of 66% (50% loss of established, 75% loss on swarms that found a home) back to 1 if we are assuming stable pop

What’s interesting is when you add in the slush for swarms that don’t find a home(nesting sites seem to be the carrying capacity limitation) say a spit ball 50%, that fits well with skep records



> 1757 : One old hive: the first swarm 7 June, the second swarm 20 June; swarm out of the first swarm 8 July, second swarm from the first 22 July.


https://www.evacranetrust.org/uploads/document/9cb7fced9e5db46beb810b8cc3f9f1797e2c5995.pdf

This fits better with the math and beekeeper experience better then Seeleys 19% loss estimation on established colonies, but its also happening in the areas people keep bees, so seeleys results may be the result of lack of pop density, witch is what tarpy say 

and when we look at the COMB project in the same area we see 63% TF losses and BIP 5 year average for TF in the area is 61.6
So not bad given the added mite pressure of large cavities and swarm prevention

What I am point out is the very low wild survival rates (80% die in the 1st year. And 50% of what over winters dies the next) creates high selection pressure but that pressure just maintains the high losses, not improves on them…

out of 100 swarms 20 see spring, 10 see a 2nd spring, 5 see a 3rd spring, so only 5% or of those queens has what it takes to be a breeder and have the “survival” trait strong enough for a f-2 to survive .. Yes there are many other things besides mites, including dumb luck, but that’s natural selection for you.. this is why splitting what lives fails to induce change

The other thing worth noting is of the 20 that make spring, only 5 or so of those queens will see a 2nd year (the overwintered queens swarm and then have a 75% loss rate) so nature is NOT selecting for queen longevity




Litsinger said:


> 2. The generally poor overwintering in Year 2 for both groups makes me wonder what the management practices of the control looked like.


agreed, likely back yard beekeepers in proximity to the feral colony if you look at the data sheet some of the managed hives were only a few feet from the feral ones


Litsinger said:


> The term 'feral' for the purposes of the study is never explicitly defined other than noting that, '... all feral colonies needed to survive at least one winter in wild, unmanaged conditions.' While I take no exception with this definition, I can see how local adaptation might likely impact local disease response as opposed to a swarm escaped from a managed apiary within the last 12 months.


While I was running numbers based on a sustaining pop, there is the rub, were these truly genetically feral hives from a self-sustaining population, or just escaped swarms that didn’t die in their 1st year do to better immunity(preselected).. these weren’t bees in the woods, they were bees in in peoples building 

it would be interesting to see how many colonies they had found, but died overwinter and couldn’t be used for the study.. 

It would also be interesting to test the COMB TF survivors vs the managed bees of the project as they all had sister queens to see if the survivors has a higher imuinty % vs the base population that was treated,


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> It would also be interesting to test the COMB TF survivors vs the managed bees of the project as they all had sister queens to see if the survivors has a higher imuinty % vs the base population that was treated,


That would be interesting- you know better than most- are they still actively evaluating the COMB colonies on a monthly basis? It appears that the latest updates are from 2019?









COMB


COMB: Conventional and Organic Management of Bees Project COMB (Conventional and Organic Management of Bees) aims to determine the impacts of various management systems on honey bee colony health. …




lopezuribelab.com





It is also interesting to compare the overwintering success of the 'feral' colonies with that of the 'CF' colonies.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

no clue, Robyn hit the speaking tour a bit in 2019 and then they have gotten fairly closed mouthed for the last year + witch is odd given all the buzz they were creating for the project with constant updates

I know they have started new project with purdue that is kinda the reverse of comb... testing different genetics head to head with the same management to look at performance differences, it should be Interesting to see just how good, or bad these stocks are... I had high hopes for Russtian/VSH/MBB/Feral showdown, but it looks like a local bee test.... I just hope there are some good commercial controls in the mix given they are the ones paying $$ for resticant breeders.








Honeybee Research at Penn State - ABC23


Honeybees contribute at least 19.2 billion dollars to the United States economy each year and an additional 4.7 billion dollars through the honey industry! Unfortunately, honeybee populations have declined by 61% in the U.S. during the past 70 years, and beekeepers expect to lose an average of...




www.abc23.com


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> I know they have started new project with purdue that is kinda the reverse of comb... testing different genetics head to head with the same management to look at performance differences, it should be Interesting to see just how good, or bad these stocks are...


Thanks for posting the video, MSL. I appreciate the update.

The one mite wash example they showed certainly does not engender confidence regarding a standardization in management strategy nor treatment threshold.

Thank you again for the video link.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Not to dis on the video, but I bet the beekeeper was embarrassed. "Yeah, I treated twice already", and yet 15 mites on a 300 bee sample is pretty bad.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Finaly found it 





Which bees are best: Testing the performance of commonly available honey bee stocks for Midwestern and Northeastern beekeepers - PURDUE UNIVERSITY


Honey bees are the most important managed pollinator in the United States. Despite extensiveinvestments of time and money by beekeepers and researchers, an unsustainable proportion ofcolonies are lost each year in the US. These losses are the result of multiple stressors (e.g., poornutrition...



portal.nifa.usda.gov






California commercial Vs Georgia Commercial Vs Purdue MMB Vs TF bees of feral bace
It looks like perhaps they are using NW Carnys form CA.. so at least there it that....but really, no russians?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

msl said:


> Finaly found it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm
"distributed across Indiana and Pennsylvania "

So the test is which commercial bee when moved to "somewhere else" other than where it "acclimated to" will do the best in 2 years.

And they got the grant, I need to start writing for grants, if this qualifies.

What is a commercial California bee any way One from somewhere else brought in for Almonds, then split given a puppy mill queen and sold as a "Nuc" or "Package"

Well since Purdue is in Indiana, and Indiana is one of the test places, My bet is on the MMB from Purdue in Indiana, as it is the most adapted to where it will be sent. Proving what exact ally? local bees are best?

GG


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Interesting that after all the Russian bee hype, it isn't Russians all the time everywhere. It's almost as if...the Russians aren't really much better than any other bees.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Gray Goose said:


> it is the most adapted to where it will be sent. Proving what exact ally? local bees are best?


well you have the local "feral survivor" stock as well
but remember this isn't a mite resistance test, and isn't a survival test (thow both points do matter) its gole is to


> Assess the health and profitability of four honey bee stocks within the Midwest and Northeast


Its were the rubber meets the road for profit based beekeeping...
IE Maybe the georgia Italians come out on top(not enuff selection for honey production in the MMB and ferals)... sure they need 2 extra mite treatment at $10 each and you need to put $20 in sugar in to them so they don't starve... but they make $60 more in honey and you get an extra 1/2-1 nuc out of them come spring offsetting there slightly higher winter loss rate.. Do to being TF its quite possible the MBB may have had some productivity die out of its gene pool 

Local II TF bees vs local natural selection TF bees, vs foreign commercial work horses. It should be interesting to see just how far apart (or close) the stocks are in performance

Side bar they are doing a 48 hour sticky board before each monthly mite wash this will give us thousands of paired samples, works of others (Randy O, ect) have show stickies to be very inconscient (I liken them to tea leaves) but this will be a very large sample size so it should be insteringing to see if it supports past works



Gray Goose said:


> What is a commercial California bee any way


In this case New World Carniolans from Strachan Apiaries, arguably not typical for Ca, but popular in the area being tested.



AR1 said:


> Interesting that after all the Russian bee hype, it isn't Russians all the time everywhere


my guess is that many locals who would be using russians are using the purdue MBB, lessing there populatirly inthe area


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AR1 said:


> the Russians aren't really much better than any other bees.


Don't forget that maintaining of the traits is hard if even possible.
The Russian Bee Association is (hopefully!!) doing it - but who is to check?

The Russians are nothing more than mutts that have been thrown together with the mites (accidentally!!!). some 70 years ago.
Well, is this a profile of a Russian bee OR just some random US mutt we have all over?
(I just extracted this sample 2 days ago)


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

In her WAS talk last night melanie kirby was saying that the piromsky are not a distinct subspecies but a rotating bag of hybrids of hybrids

an I think that's the rub, do to the way the US moves things around its going to be a mixed bag of hybrids on many fronts.. and once you start looking at the workers its a game of whos your daddy

Its been show that drone wings work for this, and as drones don't have a father it might be useful as a way to figure out "what" the queen is without compounding the issue with who she mated with..
added advantage is once you have a type on the queen, that will tell you what is flying in your DCAs!!

Have you gotten permission to distribute some copies of the english version yet?
BTW, you have don't a good bit of work on this, time to give it a tread of its own so it becomes searchable and not lost in your main thread. 😉


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> *Have you gotten permission to distribute some copies of the english version yet?*
> BTW, you have don't a good bit of work on this, time to give it a tread of its own so it becomes searchable and not lost in your main thread. 😉


Why - sure:








GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.


Count me as one impressed. To be sure, Russ, I only did some auto mechanic-level hacking (not the car design). I will not pretend to understand the complete logic behind the algorithms. No need - smart people have done the smart work already for us. Will keep reporting.




www.beesource.com





I know, I should just start a dedicated thread.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> time to give it a tread of its own so it becomes searchable and not lost in your main thread











FREE tools for honey bee wing morphological analysis.


Here is one free tool for honey bee wing morphological analysis. It is called MorphoXL. This is originating in Ukraine and developed and maintained by a guy mostly interested in the Ukrainian bee breeding (A.m.Sossimai) Has English instructions generated via Google (so is expected to be...




www.beesource.com


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> Finaly found it


Great find, MSL. I took the opportunity to follow-up with Dr. Harpur regarding the study and some of the objections noted above.

To be fair, I believe the intent of the study is for it to be a 'double blind' effort so the fact that the grant application outlines the proposed lines for testing, it may compromise this aspect of the study if the contents become widely known and distributed.

That said, I am always impressed that Dr. Harpur is willing to answer questions, and he has always been very helpful and responsive.

A few excerpts from his feedback to me:

_'This is a fully-factorial study. We have local stocks and commercials in IN and PA. If local stocks are better in their locations (i.e. PA does better in PA and worse in IN), we'll see that. That's one of the points of the study. What you're suggesting is that if we had mite biters in the study and if those mite biters are adapted to Indiana, then they might do better than imported queens in Indiana. That statement predicts that MBB's would actually perform worse outside of Indiana relative to local queens and/or other imported stocks. A fully-factorial study allows us to test these predictions and not stack decks.' 

'We're looking at the effects in the hands of an average beekeeper and the inputs that a beekeeper needs to make to use a specific stock. That is, how profitable is a stock? This is not a treatment-free study. If a beekeeper has to treat one stock more frequently to knock mites down then that's an important thing to consider when making stock decisions. There are management practices occurring and every beekeeper involved is recording them. Of note, if a colony hits threshold, it gets treated.' _


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> A few excerpts from his feedback to me:


And a postscript:

_'...do keep in mind those are pre-review documents (the grant is a little longer than a page). We receive feedback from the funding reviewers, from our committee of stakeholders involved in the grant, and we incorporate it. We also heard back from breeders about exactly how many they could supply us in the timeline we provided. Together, this led to stock updates. Some of the listed ones might be included.'

'I didn't say we don't have Russians. I can neither confirm nor deny that we do.'_

Hmmm....


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Hmmm... indeed



> will provide 20 colonies (5 from each stock) to at least 5 beekeepers in each state (for a total of at least 10 beekeepers).


Not reading "too much" in to it but the photo on the *Lopez-Uribe Lab*FB page show 5 groups of 5 sequentially numbered queens in 10 shipping boxes 😉


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> Not reading "too much" in to it but the photo on the *Lopez-Uribe Lab*FB page show 5 groups of 5 sequentially numbered queens in 10 shipping boxes 😉


MSL: You win the super sleuth award. The plot thickens...


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

msl said:


> my guess is that many locals who would be using russians are using the purdue MBB, lessing there populatirly inthe area


If the Russian stock significantly outperformed other stocks re mite resistance then they would be an unstoppable genetic wave; we'd be seeing something like the Africanization wave that swept from Brazil to south TX in a few decades. Unless in some other way they were distinctly unfit.

I have read a report that Russian genetics is getting into feral stock in Louisiana and replacing older stocks.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

msl said:


> well you have the local "feral survivor" stock as well
> but remember this isn't a mite resistance test, and isn't a survival test (thow both points do matter) its gole is to
> 
> Its were the rubber meets the road for profit based beekeeping...
> ...


Thanks MSL interesting observations.
BTW I have Russians and they so far way out winter any swarm I have caught, I am not assuming the Swarms are feral. IMO most of the ferals here have mited out.

Swarms are good for 5 X OAV then place a Russian QC in them. 

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

AR1 said:


> If the Russian stock significantly outperformed other stocks re mite resistance then they would be an unstoppable genetic wave; we'd be seeing something like the Africanization wave that swept from Brazil to south TX in a few decades. Unless in some other way they were distinctly unfit.
> 
> I have read a report that Russian genetics is getting into feral stock in Louisiana and replacing older stocks.


AR1
I let 2 or 3 Russians go every year..
Perhaps into someone's Swarm Trap.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is how the Mother/Daughter open-mating out-breeding looks like (still incomplete).
I took the F1 queen I bought last year and the F2 daughters I raised myself from here (all three F2 daughters are dead, btw; the F1 mother still OK). The original "breeder" queen is of some Russian/VSH origin, according to the seller.

Just these rough morphological runs show how quickly the out-breeding occurs.
Observe how the original F1 results (double-run) has heavy Carnica presence and virtually no Caucasica.
The F2, mated at my backyard, have significant Caucasica presence added to them and Carnica diluted by about as much (ignore the Sossimai and Ligustica for the moment).
It maybe consequential that all of my F2 died due to these changes.
One more F2 sample is to be tested, hopefully over the weekend.

And so I would question the entire "Russian" bee talk.
In fact, this same applies just as well to *most any hybrid-based "breeds"* (be it VSH, leg-biters, Buckfast, Saskatraz, etc). What ARE they?

And speaking of the feral bees?
LOL
I would want some sort of the documentation to at least know rough make up of the "ferals".
Seems to me a pointless talk otherwise.
They should be at least comparing some sort of *documented bee profiles* vs. a mix feral cats in a beg.

Some kind of stable and well-known signatures of the "Russian"/VSH/etc bees need to be developed and documented before we even talk about it (not to mention doing "research").

I am interested in obtaining few "Russian" bee samples to at least look at them for some consistency (IF it even exists).


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Hi Greg,

This would be true for "your Apairy"

PM Me your mailing address, I can send some bees 50ish correct? spring dead bees ok?

GG


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

AR1 said:


> If the Russian stock significantly outperformed other stocks re mite resistance then they would be an unstoppable genetic wave;; we'd be seeing something like the Africanization wave that swept from Brazil to south TX in a few decades.


sadly that's just not how bees work.. 

the AFB wave didn't out compete EFB for resources or what not for their niche, they bred them out.

AHB, make more drones, the drones fly at a time better suited to mate with a EHB queen (later in the day then EHB drones) and they had better mating sucess
They swarm much more, AHB genes are dominant, AHB sperm is preferentially used by EHB queens who have mated with bolth, and AHB queens emerge 2 days earlier so they are the ones who take over a hive after a swarming event... even if its just one or 2 AHB drones who mated with the EHB queen


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> PM Me your mailing address, I can send some bees 50ish correct? spring dead bees ok?


Will contact you GG.
I am indeed asking around locally for "Russian" bee samples.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> This would be true for "your Apairy"


Of course.
I have a very specific example as a demonstration.

However, the "Russian" (TM) bees for sale must be the same everywhere and should produce very similar morpho-signatures.
If you sell the "Russians", then provide the conformity certificate.
No?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> Of course.
> I have a very specific example as a demonstration.
> 
> However, the "Russian" (TM) bees for sale must be the same everywhere and should produce very similar morpho-signatures.
> ...


As I understand there are 17 lines in 3 blocks, so not sure if the wings match...









Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association, Inc.


Russian Honeybee Breeders Association



www.russianbreeder.org





GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> As I understand there are 17 lines in 3 blocks, so not sure if the wings match...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By and large they ALL should produce very similar wings within the allowed CI/DsA/HI ranges so to classify them ALL as the Russians.

The wing testing is a very rough testing and catches the significant phenotype differences only (not down to the DNA level differences). The line differences are too fine and down to the genetic testing level - not for us to judge.

This is, of course, IF they allowed the lines to diverge from the original stock and from each other too far - which they should not.
Now - IF the lines are so very distinct, then IMO they should be marketed as specific line numbers than (e.g. Russian, Line 13).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Just as well, if someone claims to use pure-ish Apis millifera mellifera in some kind of consequential research, should be using bees that indeed conform to a wing profile like this:


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> Thanks MSL interesting observations.
> BTW I have Russians and they so far way out winter any swarm I have caught, I am not assuming the Swarms are feral. IMO most of the ferals here have mited out.
> 
> Swarms are good for 5 X OAV then place a Russian QC in them.
> ...


GG, where are you getting your Russian queens or queen cells from?


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

msl said:


> sadly that's just not how bees work..
> 
> the AFB wave didn't out compete EFB for resources or what not for their niche, they bred them out.
> 
> ...


And they quickly developed some resistance to mites. Very interested in seeing how the Puerto Rican bees play out.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Some additional commentary from the research team regarding the initial study posted by MSL:









Feral colonies provide clues for enhancing honey bee tolerance to pathogens


Understanding the genetic and environmental factors that enable some feral honey bee colonies to tolerate pathogens and survive the winter in the absence of beekeeping management may help lead to breeding stocks that would enhance survival of managed colonies, according to a study led by...




phys.org


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

A little more context relative to this study from the May 2021 ABJ attached.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I was able to get a signature of bees sold as "Russian" (attached)>
Should have strong signature of Sossimai in them.

But one issue is that I also caught some commercial and/or random swarms that also had lots of Sossimai in them (it so appeared in the signature).
Lots of mongrels made of other mongrels made of other mongrels....


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

You're getting good at this morphometry stuff, GregV.

Your post prompted me to look into the Ukrainian honey bee- doesn't look like there is much literature out there (at least in English) about this subspecies- are they considered to be similar to Caucasians?

The best taxonometric document I could find that includes them is this:









A revision of subspecies structure of western honey bee Apis mellifera


The taxonomy of honey bee A. mellifera contains a lot of issues due to the specificity of population structure, features of biology and resolutions of…




www.sciencedirect.com


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> Your post prompted me to look into the Ukrainian honey bee- doesn't look like there is much literature out there (at least in English) about this subspecies- are they considered to be similar to Caucasians?


Per the morpho sigs, the Ukraians land between the Caucasica/Mellifera and Ligustica/Carnica.
Hard to say what are they similar to the most.
Certainly, the main morpho indexes of Sossimai and Ligustica have larger overlap than the overlap of Sossimai and Caucasica.

Geographically, the Ukrainians were formed in a buffer zone between the Mellifera and Carpathica - so maybe that is where they belong.
They never really contacted the Caucasica due to the lack of habitat between the two.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Good information, GregV. So now I am wondering- how did the Ukrainian steppe bee genetics get into the Primorski signature? Imports? I had always assumed the Primorski bees were predominantly Caucasian at their base so your morphological evaluations are an interesting wrinkle.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> Good information, GregV. So now I am wondering- how did the Ukrainian steppe bee genetics get into the Primorski signature? Imports? I had always assumed the Primorski bees were predominantly Caucasian at their base so your morphological evaluations are an interesting wrinkle.


Primorski bees are primarily what the Ukrainian immigrants brought with them during the mass migration onto the area.
Late 1800's/early 1900's lots of people moved there from the Ukraine.
This is similar to the US's West migrations (but in Russia it was to the East).
Wild Wild East migration, if you will.

Other bees likely also made it there during these unregulated importation times (this is where the Carpathica/Carnica come from).
Of course, the Carpathica is another Ukrainian bee - it is the Western Ukrainian bee whereas the Sossimai is the Eastern Ukrainian bee. 
People from the Western Ukraine did not migrate as much as from Eastern Ukraine (I guess the life on the West was better and they stayed put).

Later during the Soviet times, the ruling administration decided to "improve" and organize the beekeeping into the massive state operation.
In the Primorski region it amounted to massive importations of the Caucasians and the Italians (from the US).
So the Caucasians and Italians polluted the already pre-existing population (predominantly Sossimai) - however, the pure Caucasica and Ligustica pretty quickly faded away as mostly unfit for the area. But the genetics are present in the mix, of course and it shows.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is the profile of a random swarm I caught in 2020.
I thought they were sorta/kinda Italians; looked and behaved that way; no mite resistance to speak of.

Well, the morpho reported a lot of Sossimai in them.
So I have not a clue what these bees were OR maybe the tools need proper calibration for the US (for which I really need very pure US Italians to be measured).

But of course, the variability is variability - without very strict and continuous selection (which the Russian program appears to do) any "Russian" colony will very quickly out-breed with the surrounding population with unpredictable results in few generations.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

GregV said:


> But of course, the variability is variability - without very strict and continuous selection (which the Russian program appears to do) any "Russian" colony will very quickly out-breed with the surrounding population with unpredictable results in few generations.


Agreed. Given the number of drones a queen mates with, the mathematical possibilities of picking up some new blood are high. On the flip-side I now probably have 20-30K Russian drones flying around so the probability starts swinging the other way for this neighborhood. But in fairness, the colony I used for a large portion of these was a queen bred here when I still had 2-3 Italians and whatever feral stuff is here. Still, just going by looks, I haven't seen a blond Italian-looking drone yet. They're either black, almost black or caramel colored. 

@Struttinbuck sent me the video someone posted with one of the RHBA guys a couple of weeks ago. Those guys are serious about maintaining the line(s). And membership requirements were pretty strick. I think "try as you may" unless you have an island, you're going to get diversity.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Good stuff, GregV. Interesting because Dr. Tom Rinderer is quoted as observing in the attached Bee Culture article that, 'He and Dr. F. Ruttner both concluded that the actual subspecies being brought to Louisiana and quarantined on a nearby island was _Apis mellifera macedonica_, a relative of the Carniolan bee (_Apis mellifera carnica_). Both used a technique called morphometrics (structural analysis), which was in vogue at the time before substantive genetic identification techniques were developed. However, according to Dr. Rinderer, neither of these determinations were published.'






RUSSIAN Honey Bees | Bee Culture







www.beeculture.com


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

joebeewhisperer said:


> I think "try as you may" unless you have an island, you're going to get diversity


Or place bees were no one would... ie open grasslands with no trees and little forage 
or II 

Even with complete mating control you get diversity with bees, that's just their nature, so the selection of breeder queens is key...

ie you could be on an island and if you just split and open mate you will start loosing control of the lines


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> Good stuff, GregV. Interesting because Dr. Tom Rinderer is quoted as observing in the attached Bee Culture article that, 'He and Dr. F. Ruttner both concluded that the actual subspecies being brought to Louisiana and quarantined on a nearby island was _Apis mellifera macedonica_, a relative of the Carniolan bee (_Apis mellifera carnica_). Both used a technique called morphometrics (structural analysis), which was in vogue at the time before substantive genetic identification techniques were developed. However, according to Dr. Rinderer, neither of these determinations were published.'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As of very recent re-classification, the Ukrainian steppe bees is now Sossimai.
2007 if I recall.
Google knows.

Previously, the Ukrainian steppe bee was classified as Macedonica.
Not any longer.

So, they were technically correct - whatever they brought into the US was Macedonica at the time (later reclassified to Sossimai as a separate group from Macedonica).
I don't know IF the Sossimai is a relative of Carpathica/Carnica.
Sossimai is just as well is a relative of Mellifera because the population areas are adjacent to each other (see map).
So the Sossimai should be related to both and is a transitional subspecies, if someone bothers to really dig into it.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Some time back I read a study that said that in Louisiana feral bee numbers crashed after varroa came in. Within a few years recovered to about 50% the number of feral colonies, and remains at 50% years later. I wish I had saved that link. The same article found that Russian genetics was common in the mix there.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

kind of








(PDF) Changes in Honey Bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Colony Swarming and Survival Pre- and Postarrival of Varroa destructor (Mesostigmata: Varroidae) in Louisiana


PDF | The impact of Varroa destructor Anderson & Trueman (Mesostigmata: Varroidae) on colonies of Apis mellifera L. (Hymenoptera: Apidae) in southern... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net




they bounced back 100% in 5 years (biased on swarm catches)
it was suggested


> However, we cannot rule out that some varroa resistant bees from the USDA laboratory in Baton Rouge may have been represented


but not genetical proven it could be the Baton Rouge stocks..
but one has to wonder... they let AHB loose here in the past, but some how they didn't take hold till a 2nd wave coming up from the south till 2005..
why did they not take hold the 1st time...
With out mites, AHBs varroa restiance advantage may have not bee as competive, there gentilics may have been pushed to the back, but still out there


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Thanks MSL. Interesting report. I found this:

Survival times of monitored colonies varied signif-
icantly through time (Fig. 2). Before the arrival of
varroa mites, the estimate for colony survival was 14
mo (No-Varroa, Table 1). Mortality rates increased
starting in 1993 (after the detection of varroa mites in
the immediate area in 1992) and the survival de-
creased to ⬇10 mo (Early-Varroa, Table 1). The col-
onies within the period 1997Ð2005 had an estimated
survival of 27 mo (Late-Varroa, Table 1)

Pre-varroa survival average was only 14 months. Believable. That then dropped to <10 mo when varroa arrived and later increased to 27 months for unknown reasons. I can't imaging why colony survival would increase after arrival of varroa. Makes me suspect a change in technique or personnel affected data collection.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> Previously, the Ukrainian steppe bee was classified as Macedonica.
> Not any longer.


GregV:

Thanks for the feedback. Very interesting information- when looking at the above referenced study, they note the following:

#23


_Apis mellifera macedonica_ Ruttner, 1988The Macedonian honey beeCBulgaria, Greece, Macedonia, Ukraine

#25


_Apis mellifera sossimai_ Engel 1999 (new name for preoccupied: _Apis mellifera cerifera_ Gerstäcker 1862)The Ukrainian honey beeC or OCrimea, South Russia, Ukraine

This prompted me to look up the 1999 Engel publication which sought to unify the taxonometric structure of honey bees (attached).

So it appears (at least based on Engel's research) that sossimai (p. 21) is distinct from macedonica (p.19) and based on the above research both might be considered endemic to Ukraine.

I also note that Wikipedia suggests that,_ 'A.m. macedonica might be synonymous with A. m. artemisia (the Russian steppe honey bee; see above) as described by Engel, 1999.'_

Finally, the attached genetic research from bees sourced near Kiev suggested a background of macedonica and looks to confirm your suggestion that this area (i.e. the region surrounding the Black Sea) might likely serve as a frequent source of genetic mixing of the various lineages.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Thanks for the feedback. Very interesting information- when looking at the above referenced study, they note the following:
> .........


It appears you are correct - unsure why I kept thinking 2007.
Cross-referencing took me back to Engel, 1999.

*



Apis mellifera sossimai

Click to expand...

*


> *Украинская степная медоносная пчела*
> Apis mellifera sossimai _Engel, 1999_
> Синоним: Apis mellifera acervorum _Scorikov, 1929_


The Macedonica is supposed to be the Macedonian/Bulgarian bee - the locations are removed far enough from the Ukraine proper.






Болгарская медоносная пчела — Википедия







ru.wikipedia.org





One needs to keep in mind that Ukraine is a large geographic space of about size of Texas.
They have many different ecosystems - lowland northern forests, highland western forests, southern/south-eastern steppes, transitional zones between the forest and the steppes, finally a marine zone along the Black Sea.
Toss in the Crimean peninsula - a totally unique place in its own right.
Anyway, the Ukraine does not have just a single bee, they have many - this is to be clear.
Carpathica, Mellifera, Sossimai, Taurica, and, possibly, Macedonica also.
And everything in between because the bees mix.

Anyhow, this particular bee, the Sossimai, was the original, imported foundation of what is now known as Primorisky bee.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

AR1 said:


> I can't imaging why colony survival would increase after arrival of varroa. Makes me suspect a change in technique or personnel affected data collection.


Word. 

Many times we see "research", particularly in our headline culture that has a tiny sample size, or some really funky methods to get to a conclusion they did not need a study to "prove". 

In reading some of this I first thought of how obsessive some of you guys have been on this topic, and the shear time it has taken in pursuit of this knowledge. Then I realized every beek on earth would benefit from a clear understanding what it takes to promote the health and survival of our little friends. i.e. If/when a completely treatment-free bee/process becomes available we will all benefit. And without folks engaged in a serious study of it, it won't happen. Even if it did, no one would know about it. Thanks for the time you put into it.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

joebeewhisperer said:


> If/when a completely treatment-free bee/process becomes available we will all benefit.


Such process is available as we speak - 100% chem-free.
NOT in the USA but rather in Ukraine.
I found a series of videos and am watching it now.
The basics:

planned queen isolation where the queen is only laying for two specific periods during the year - spring build-up and fall build-up
mite trap creation - at the very beginning of the fall build-up, the queen lays up 1-2 frames of drone brood (in 1-2 frame confined space)
the brood frame(s) with concentration of the mites is removed and then the true fall-build up starts
the drone brood frames are not wasted but rather a marketable product (which I harvest too for myself - different subject).
the queen only lays 2-3 months out of they entire season, otherwise she is confined.

The high level management drawing is posted in this video at 38:00, for example:


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> Such process is available as we speak - 100% chem-free.
> NOT in the USA but rather in Ukraine.
> I found a series of videos and am watching it now.
> The basics:
> ...


so with all the confinement/non laying days the population is not all that big for splits or honey crop.
If the goal is to keep the bees alive then fine and good , but seems you are sacrificing the crops of bees and/or the honey. funny when I put frames of drone brood out at the bee stand to sell they do not get any buyers. so with 50 hives and 100 drone brood frames , i am not seeing the cash flow side of this equation.

to then advertise these bees as "mite resistant" would IMO be a disservice.

so to what ends,, to we get on this train?

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

And more generally the management process is:

create clean brood-less status in the colony that all mites are phoretic (however you do it)
remove the very first brood capped immediately after the brood-break with the mites concentrated in it
proper timing of these two steps within season is very important so to hit other seasonal beekeeping objectives.

The obvious drawback - this is about as opposite of the "lazy beekeeping" as you can get.
Pretty advanced stuff if to execute successfully.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> so with all the confinement/non laying days the population is not all that big for splits or honey crop.


The guy mostly targets the pressed drone product and honey.
He is not about bee sales.

No issue for the honey crop (in fact, the opposite - it is very productive).
The fundamentals are:

the queen by default lays far more eggs that are needed to be successful in your honey crop harvest (this is how we get our swarms and splits)
the bees that do not take part in brood raising are the best bees for crop harvest - with the long brood-less breaks the vast majority of the bees never took part in brood raising and are the best foragers you can get
important point there is - raising the brood is where the bees spend the most of their vital resources (negative factor for the honey foraging)

No - this method has nothing to do with the resistance selection.
But if you care about that objective, you are free to experiment in that direction.
This is purely chem-free management technique.
The guy never once says word "selection"; he just does not care.
He developed his method rather as a double-whammy method to harvest drone brood AND control the mites at once.

Regarding the splits - again, need to see if/how this will fit the bee propagation.
Probably will NOT fit as we rather want the queen be non-stop working on the bee propagation projects.
But the general idea of 1) creation of clean brood-less start combined with 2)removal of the very first brood capped after the break and (optionally) 3) OA application in the brood-less start should work.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> funny when I put frames of drone brood out at the bee stand to sell they do not get any buyers. so with 50 hives and 100 drone brood frames , i am not seeing the cash flow side of this equation.


Issues:

you are in the US - no developed market (of all places, the US has the most terrible market for bee products).
you don't sell drone brood, instead you should sell a developed product fully ready for consumption, like this one:






Трутневое молочко гомогенат купить в городе Москва, цена на Медовея


Купить трутневое молочко в городе Москва 🍯 Лучшая цена ✔️ Собственное производство 🐝 Опт/розница ✈️ Удобные способы доставки и оплаты




medoveya.ru





In the Ukraine/Russia, the producers of the drone brood product establish supply relationship with final brood drone product sellers.
So the beekeepers don't sell themselves; they harvest and supply the raw stuff to the companies who create and sell the consumables.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

So, yes, I went on a tangent from the original topic to address this line:


> If/when a completely treatment-free bee/process becomes available we will all benefit.


But this is basically to point out that the treatment-free methods do exist and they work.
I even translated and posted a whole book chapter from back 1980's yet when they developed such method.

However, such methods are unconcerned with the treatment-free bee selection at all - rather, these are bio-technical methods of mite control.
So just making this clear.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> Anyhow, this particular bee, the Sossimai, was the original, imported foundation of what is now known as Primorisky bee.


Good post, GregV. I apologize for the delay in reply as I have unfortunately not had the time of late to spend here on Beesource.

Your research is what makes it more intriguing that Rinderer and Ruttner concluded by morphometry that the Primorski bee was macedonica. 

Keep up the good work-

Russ


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Follow-up study from Southern California evaluated the viral titers between feral and managed colonies, concluding:

_'Similar levels of HBAV in FHB and MHB in southern California suggest that both bee types are sources of HBAV for the pollinator community. Additionally, since FHB do not rely on management to mitigate pathogen stress, they may have means to combat viral stressors that MHB do not.'

'This suggests that feralization itself may select for beneficial adaptations to mitigate disease. Thus, FHB may be both important sources of pathogens among pollinators, and potential resources for understanding pathogen mitigation in honey bees.'_


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

FWIW I inquired of Robyn re: COMB, she stated the study ended in April of 2021 after 3 years of data. 

The Conventional Group 88.5% Survival
The Organic Tx Group 86.8% Survival
Chemical Free 33.3% Survival.

Very similar to the previous two winters.

She is expecting final lab results to tally (which is far behind) and drafting publication on the previous two years for journal submission and review.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

nice
I was wondering what happened as she stopped up dating the blog


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

msl said:


> nice
> I was wondering what happened as she stopped up dating the blog


Wasn't the response I was hoping for on the TF side of things - that's for sure! It is a non-starter for me as to the validity of the study, but I heard there were concerns about the stock used for the TF group, which might've subverted the premise of starting with alleged TF stock to perpetuate success/survival. I can't find any data to support pro/con for the point, just repeating what was heard. Would be interested to know if this influenced outcomes in that group or not.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

James Lee said:


> but I heard there were concerns about the stock used for the TF group


people always have concerns about "something" when the results conderict thier views... burry their heads in the sand and cast stones 

It was the same breeder for all groups, they were all daughters of a local survivor colony with 7 years of TF history (3 years in a soffit as feral and 4 years in a hive)














and wouldn't you know it the resulting conlys were plagued with unconabul swarming...come spring only 10% didn't swarm despite control attempts 

to be fair, they more or less did everything "right" Even sourcing cemical free wax form Lusby for the small cell foundation


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

msl said:


> people always have concerns about "something" when the results conderict thier views... burry their heads in the sand and cast stones
> 
> It was the same breeder for all groups, they were all daughters of a local survivor colony with 7 years of TF history (3 years in a soffit as feral and 4 years in a hive)
> 
> ...


Like I said - I would'nt assume the COMB study would've embarked on a study using a variable that would taint the study. But the data supports previously survival assessments of TF beekeeping to be around that 1/3 mark.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

msl said:


> people always have concerns about "something" when the results conderict thier views... burry their heads in the sand and cast stones
> 
> It was the same breeder for all groups, they were all daughters of a local survivor colony with 7 years of TF history (3 years in a soffit as feral and 4 years in a hive)
> 
> ...


Any insights on what the stock providers current survivability is? Again assumes his local environment is a contributing factor to his personal successes.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

James Lee said:


> Any insights on what the stock providers current survivability is


"We are a local, family-owned honeybee farm. We use organic management techniques and treatment free beekeeping. Our commitment is to the planet. "
my guess is they treat when needed and the breeders are TF




James Lee said:


> his local environment is a contributing factor to his personal successes.


they were local to the COMB study




James Lee said:


> But the data supports previously survival assessments of TF beekeeping to be around that 1/3 mark.


yes, that was the point of this thread, that the wild data form linked study dove tails well in to the COMB data. this is a far cry form the numbers reported by some


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> It was the same breeder for all groups, they were all daughters of a local survivor colony with 7 years of TF history (3 years in a soffit as feral and 4 years in a hive)


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

The methodology has been proven time and time again, hopefully people will start to listen and pickup the grafting tool



> The strongest tool that a beekeeper has for controlling colony genetics is the grafting needle. Colony characteristics that are favorable to a particular beekeeping operation or are adapted for a specific geographic area can be increased by grafting queens from colonies that possess the desired traits


Dee Lusby etal
ABJ, November, 1989 – Page 717-719


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

An update on the COMB project (among others) in this discussion with Dr. Uribe. Sounds like only 1 of the 100 TF colonies made it to the end of the 3 year study, but the Organic management group had an average of 85% annual survival.

She also spends considerable time talking about the role of nutrition in bee health, declaring it the #1 problem that honey bees in the US face:

Impacts of Management Practices on Bee Health


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> I took the opportunity to follow-up with Dr. Harpur regarding the study...


While recently communicating with Dr. Harpur, I asked about this study:

_'We just wrapped up the study. Papers in the works so nothing peer-reviewed yet. The overall trend was that locally developed stocks seem to do better by many metrics: e.g. honey production, survival, and mite loads.' _


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