# new beekeeper, new nuc: to feed or not to feed? also frame placement question



## ezwicky (Jan 10, 2012)

howdy all,

i'm posting this in the treatment-free forum because that's the way i intend to go as a new beekeeper, and i would like to get the opinion of like-minded folks. i hope this will not be considered off-topic.

first question: i installed my nuc of 5 medium frames of small-cell bees into an 8-frame box last monday, putting the nuc frames in the center and adding one foundationless frame on one side and two foundationless frames on the other.

i opened the hive for the first time yesterday to remove the empty queen cage, and noticed a lot of burr comb between the nuc frames, and also noticed that no effort has been made to build comb on the new frames.

in another thread, beeman410 advised me to tear down the burr comb,and while i'm in there, to feed the new colony until 7 or 8 frames are drawn. so i wanted to expand on the feeding idea this morning. i have read that feeding can discourage the natural foraging instinct; could this truly be the case? i have abserved that about 1 in 3 returning foragers comes back with a load of pollen, so can i assume that this indicates a good flow? if there is a good flow, will i upset the natural balance of things by feeding 2:1 syrup?

on the other hand, if i don't feed now, and there is actually dearth, i could be ignoring an opportunity to really help the new colony get established.

i'm pretty nervous about this being new and all, so i'd appreciate a broader range of opinion, not that i don't value beeman's input, i do indeed.

second question: robherc advised interspersing the foundationless frames among the drawn frames from the nuc in order to better ensure straight comb and also to stimulate the new frames being drawn out, but i seem to remember reading that the nuc frames should always be installed in the same order that they were delivered. i hope it will not be perceived that i am not taking good advice from two respected members of the group, but i just wanted to get a wider response before i make my moves later this morning.

thanks everybody for your time and advice,

-eric zwicky


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I am also new, I also happen to have installed a band new nuc last monday. I am also feeding 1:1 sugar water and my bees are finish off their first gallon today. 

My bees have been foraging from the first day and it appears to me they are increasing that activity day by day. I cannot say the foraging has not been effected by feeding but it certainly has not been stopped. Your pollen return is considerable better than mine. I woudl say one in 6 return with pollen about half return appearing heavy. the others may be bringing in water I am not sure.

I checked on them after two days and found very little comb drawn. I checked again Yesterday and found 2 of 5 frames with a lot of comb drawn and all the other three frames of foundation had some comb drawn but not a lot.

I also noticed a large increase in the foraging or coming and going from the hive activity yesterday as well. The bees may have found something that was producing nectar for them and this spurred the increased comb building. I will just say there was a huge difference in just two days.

I would not attempt to say what woudl account for the subtle difference in your results and mine. Mainly because they are just that "Subtle" Possibly your bees just need another day or two before they get into the comb building mode. Possibly they have just not yet located a source of nectar large enough to motivate them yet.

I will say that I found moving the frames of foundation from completely outside the old nuc frames to inside that the bees started paying more attention to them.

I have my frames arranged like this as of yesterday
10. Honey from nuc
9 New frame of foundation partially drawn but not a lot
8 Frame of honey pollen and a tiny bit of brood from nuc
7 New frame of Foundation that is heavily drawn. Had barely been drawn and was in location 9 two days before.
6. Brood from nuc
5 brood from nuc
4 New foundation with some drawn comb
3. Honey pollen from nuc
2. new foundation with a little comb drawn
1. New foundation with only a tiny bit of comb drawn.

It is my impression that moving the foundation within the outer frames of the old nuc frames has caused the bees to start treating it like their home. Otherwise it seems they want to continue to live on that group of 5 frames and ignore the new frames.

I make no claims anyone else woudl get the same results from the same manipulations. This is just what I did and how it has worked out.

Also I will add, I do not disturb frames 4 or 5 (The brood nest) when I go into the hive. Pulling the frames of honey and the number of bees that are on them is bad enough with such frequent visits. I plan to not open the hive again for a week and then it will be to swap frames 1 thru 4 around in order to get that comb drawn. Frames 5 thru 7 are where I intend to keep them.


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## ezwicky (Jan 10, 2012)

hey daniel, thanks for your detailed and thorough reply. i just went out and interspersed the frames, but i did not feed. we'll see in a week when i open up the hive again, how well things are progressing. have a great sunday,

-eric


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## wadehump (Sep 30, 2007)

feed feed feed


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## G Barnett (May 13, 2012)

This is exactly how my first hive is set up. 
So, I should move some of the unworked frames toward the middle? 
The hive has been relatively unchanged for a week. The hive has been set in my yard for 20 days.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

If the bees are taking the feed they need it, if they stop taking the feed they don't need it. If there is a flow or not you have to have a flying force to take advantage of it. If they don't have forage to gather or the flying force to gather that forage, you will not get any combs drawn, it is that simple.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

so far (in the 9th day) my bees are still taking about a quart of sugar water a day. It might be reducing but not enough to really notice yet. I do notice there is more bees leaving the hive. The bees returning with pollen is improving but still a lot of bees return with nothing on their legs. I have not checked the frames since last Saturday but am hoping to find most of them drawn when I check on Friday. My main hope is that the queen is able to enlarge the number of cells she lays in so that in a couple of weeks I get a boost in the hive population. That would work with adding a second hive body and doubling the space they have a second time. For this year that is about the most I even hope for. I woudl like to see my bees draw out and fill two deep bodies and be set for the winter. We will see. 3 weeks for a bee to go from egg to bee does not seem like a lot of time until you are in the midst of the active season. then suddenly realize that is not a huge number of rotations for a single cell to produce new bees. 
Mainly in my mind is how many eggs can a queen even be laying per day on two frames? That does not seem like a lot of room considering once she lays in a cell it is taken up for 21 days. I am hoping that by now she has 4 frames at least. I am finding it hard not to take a peek after leaving them alone for 3 days. Tomorrow is actually 10 days since I installed the nuc and I have not disturbed the brood nest yet. I might cheat and make a good inspection tomorrow. Problem is if she is laying in any new co9mb it is likely to be just eggs. I am not sure I can spot them that well.

All I know is that bees are foraging just not in huge numbers and they never run out of sugar water. If they are making babies at all I don't know I haven't confirmed there was brood since I installed them. I know that even in the middle of my install the queen was searching for a cell to lay in. She was on the wrong frame to find it but was still searching.

I will be very happy to get the second body on the hive and not have to be so close to the nest when I check on things.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

The bees determine how many eggs a queen lays. They will only allow the number of eggs to remain in the cells that they have bees to cover. That is what it is all about, population. The more bees you have the more bees you can have. A softball size cluster can only cover a softball size brood area. If you do not have brood hatching the cluster is getting smaller everyday, this time of year.


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