# Apivar or Formic Acid for first treatment?



## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

I have 2 packages being delivered tomorrow, one of Apivar, and one of Formic Acid. I live in SWFL, temps are predicted to be in the mid to upper 80's for the next week, low humidity, I have a screened bottom board.

I'm going to start treatment for varroa tomorrow when they arrive, trying to decide which one to use, and which one to save for the fall.

My nuc is brand new, only about 10 days old. I'm trying to build up the population obviously. I like the fact that the formic acid is "organic", don't like the fact that it can lead to brood loss. Apivar I know leaves residue.

I really didn't plan on trying to get any honey for some time, unless the population explodes and there's a sudden strong flow.

Any guidance is appreciated. My thought was formic acid now, apivar for the fall. Sound right?

Again, thanks.

UPDATE: I just talked to the guy that I bought my nuc from. He said he does NOT treat for mites. He uses 4.9 mm foundation and finds that the small bees don't need treatment. He has a lot of hives and swears they don't need treatment. I did notice that the bees are smaller than most.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Tell us more about your "brand new 10 day old" nuc. Is there brood in all stages? How big is it in terms of frames of brood? What was the treatment regime of the person who provided the components? Formic can be a pretty harsh treatment particularly if the temps are high and Apivar requires a certain period of time before a surplus honey flow. First do no harm, treat only if there is a high mite load situation.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

jim lyon said:


> Tell us more about your "brand new 10 day old" nuc. Is there brood in all stages? How big is it in terms of frames of brood? What was the treatment regime of the person who provided the components? Formic can be a pretty harsh treatment particularly if the temps are high and Apivar requires a certain period of time before a surplus honey flow. First do no harm, treat only if there is a high mite load situation.


Thanks Jim, all excellent points. I'll call the person I bought the nuc from and ask what he used. I haven't done an exact count of mites, I've seen some deformed wing virus, and there are some mites in the IPM board that I coated with Pam. 

Yes, the last time I looked I saw brood in all stages. As far as the percentage of frames full of brood, I'll have to look again, I've been trying to stay out of the hive to give them a few days to get things established. 

The main issue with the amount of brood seems to be their reluctance to spread onto the other 5 frames. (The nuc was 5 deep frames, full of bees, came from an orange orchard just after bloom.) They're plastic foundations, wood frame in a 10 frame deep box. I coated the foundations with wax over the weekend, I do not think they've spread to the new foundations. I think they just picked the wax off and used it elsewhere. 

I'm getting ready to order some wired wax foundation to see if that makes the difference. I think they're trying hard to expand, but just haven't figured out they can use the other frames / foundation yet. 

I could also insert some frames with a wax comb guide. I do have some medium thin surplus wax foundation.

As far as the Apivar and honey flow. I really don't even know how established a hive should be before trying to even harvest any honey.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Oxalic Acid in the form of vaporization would be a great treatment now and the very best treatment in the fall. Read up on it. No temperature restrictions (except temps have t/b above 37) no harm to brood, eggs, bees, the queen and no contamination of the wax. For the packages, one treatment will suffice, for the nuc, possibly a treatment once every 7 days to capture that brood cycle (to vap the mites that are emerging with the brood)......


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Just a repeat post of what I added above.

UPDATE: I just talked to the guy that I bought my nuc from. He said he does NOT treat for mites. He uses 4.9 mm foundation and finds that the small bees don't need treatment. He has a lot of hives and swears they don't need treatment. I did notice that the bees are smaller than most.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Coach62 said:


> Just a repeat post of what I added above.
> 
> UPDATE: I just talked to the guy that I bought my nuc from. He said he does NOT treat for mites. He uses 4.9 mm foundation and finds that the small bees don't need treatment. He has a lot of hives and swears they don't need treatment. I did notice that the bees are smaller than most.


Open up some drone brood from the nuc.......that'll tell you whether the nuc has mites....


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Coach62 said:


> Just a repeat post of what I added above.
> 
> UPDATE: I just talked to the guy that I bought my nuc from. He said he does NOT treat for mites. He uses 4.9 mm foundation and finds that the small bees don't need treatment. He has a lot of hives and swears they don't need treatment. I did notice that the bees are smaller than most.


To be really fair to yourself and your bees.... Anyone can make a claim about their bees. Are they testing? Checking? Doing real alcohol washes and seeing how many mites, fall and spring? What does "small bees don't need treatment" mean? Does it mean that they all don't die or are they all thriving? 

IMO, keep track of your mites and treat accordingly. You made an investment into the nuc and it would be a shame to see it falter because "small bees don't need treatment." FYI, I used Apivar this spring in NC. I was seeing healthy hives, nice clusters, but phoretic mites and I simply didn't want to: 1. Be a mite farmer for neighbors 2. Deal with fallout later in the season.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

snl said:


> Open up some drone brood from the nuc.......that'll tell you whether the nuc has mites....


I'll do that. Oddly enough, I saw several drones flying back into the hive today. Not sure if they were smelling another queen in the area or what.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Sunday Farmer said:


> To be really fair to yourself and your bees.... Anyone can make a claim about their bees. Are they testing? Checking? Doing real alcohol washes and seeing how many mites, fall and spring? What does "small bees don't need treatment" mean? Does it mean that they all don't die or are they all thriving?
> 
> IMO, keep track of your mites and treat accordingly. You made an investment into the nuc and it would be a shame to see it falter because "small bees don't need treatment." FYI, I used Apivar this spring in NC. I was seeing healthy hives, nice clusters, but phoretic mites and I simply didn't want to: 1. Be a mite farmer for neighbors 2. Deal with fallout later in the season.


Good point, but he does seem to be having success with the way he's doing it. He's been in business for over 40 years. He did say that his bees are not mite free, but that he doesn't lose colonies to them.

On the good news side, since he doesn't treat, they won't be resistant. I'll go ahead with the Apivar treatment tomorrow just to be safe and monitor the mite drop.

I would add that the population of the hive has very noticeably increased in just the past 11 days. Maybe he's on to something, maybe not. I have read that some apiaries are trying to breed mite resistant strains.


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## Swampsquash (Oct 25, 2014)

Coach62 said:


> I haven't done an exact count of mites, I've seen some deformed wing virus


Maybe it's just me but when I see DWV it's usually a pretty heavy infestation. Does everyone else notice the same or similar? Or am I way off?


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