# hfcs vs liquid sucrose vs invert liquid sucrose



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

can you have it tested for quality?


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

*they have a lab on site*

What would I be looking for? I can ask for a sample but I am hoping if the price is write to feed sucrose in the spring and hfcs in the fall


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The guys here at our extentions office will test our surip, if needed, and they are looking for the HMF level, otherwise the acidity level int he surip. Higher acid level, worse the surip. I forget what HMF stands for


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Rainesridge:

Ian is right. Look for HMF- Hydroxymethylfurfurals. I suspect levels in your sucurose will be high. Hmf increase as the temperature increases in either honey or syrup. If the colour is off in the sucrose it was possibly overheated, therefore it is darker. I don't know enough about the process to understand to explain what else could cause the off colour. I guess there is some sort of a bleaching process to get white sugar crystals as opposed to brown sugar.

HMF's are indigestible to bees I think, so it's deadly to bees if it is in their winter stores. In the spring it's not so bad as the bees can fly and void themselves.

Jean-Marc


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

This topic has been covered quite extensively lately and lots of deatil can be found here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1372538


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

*bad link*

I can not open the link you posted.

I will check the hmf levels. They have a lab onsite so I should be able to get This. My big concern was stability over time. They can invert the sucrose so it will not mold. I buy a tanker load of hfcs and use half in spring and half in fall. With a price of inverted sucrose as low as $.20 gal delivered I wanted to make sure it is good to last the summer.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

rainesridgefarm said:


> I can not open the link you posted


Yes. It quit working for me, too. It was just a link to the search results obtained by an advanced search for 'HFCS' in posts here on BeeSource over the last month. Easy to do.



> I will check the hmf levels. They have a lab onsite so I should be able to get This. My big concern was stability over time. They can invert the sucrose so it will not mold. I buy a tanker load of hfcs and use half in spring and half in fall. With a price of inverted sucrose as low as $.20 gal delivered I wanted to make sure it is good to last the summer


HMF is not the only problem. Process and residual acid is implicated, too. I would check with Diana Sammataro http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/sammataro/index.html if in doubt.

I used HFCS and stored it over summer and winter, too, with no apparent problem, but a 10% or even 20% hit to the hives is not that easy to see. Minor ill effects are hard to spot. Not saying that is likely, but it never hurts to ask.

I actually still have a half tank that has been around for five years and it looks OK. I'm afraid to feed it tho'.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>use half in spring and half in fall

Our guys say that might not be a good idea,

the HMF values in the surip increase with time, and temperature,
temperatures over 5 degrees. 
They suggest keeping surip over winter is fine, here anyway, becasue it is mostly below freezing and not HMF degradation will happen.

With that in mind, feeding the left over surip in fall would pose a problem to your wintering bees. Depending on the type of winter you have I suppose,

Here, our winters are long and cold. We have to give our hives the best of feed to ensure good survival rates. But I am talking up to 5 months of confinement. Your situation might be different,


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

*found a site*

thanks for the information 

I found this site to get a start

http://www.wildwoodlabs.com/viewer.php?article_id=52


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

$.20 gallon, are you sure? That's less than 2 cents a pound delivered. Hard to believe, and almost to good to be true. I mean I pay about a penny a pound for delivery and I'm about 1 hour and 15 minutes away from the sugar plant and 10 minutes from the tanker truck yard. This a based on a full load. If it's not toxic grab it and don't hesitate before someone else does. I mean I've stored syrup over the summer, don't know if the increase of HMF's as Ian points out is harming my bees. I don't think so, but I have never measured.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>don't know if the increase of HMF's as Ian points out is harming my bees. 

To find out, you'd have to test your syrup.
I was at a entomological symposium in Winnipeg a couple of winters ago, and one of the honeybee topics was geared around feeding syrups to bees as a supplement to their diet. They talked mostly about sucrose and HFCS. One important point I left with , was how easily HFCS can degrade over time especially with higher temperatures.
It was mentioned syrup left over from spring, here in the prairies anyway, is better dumped in the bush than into your hives for winter feed,


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

The seriousness of the problem depends on time of year and what other food is available. If there is lots of other food, then the effect is diluted and also, bees live a shorter time when flows are on, HMF or no HMF, but add in some nosema, and you can just imagine the poor bees' stomaches!

The effect is worst when bees are confined and limited in resources.

Moreover, HMF goes up over time in honey and old honey can have high HMF, too. Heating honey raises HMF as well.

Time and temperature. Plus the nature of the original mix.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>The seriousness of the problem depends on time of year and what other food is available

Reason being why they were a little more relaxed in advising spring time feeding of old syrup rather than fall feeding of old syrup


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

*pricing*

Sorry I missed typed that. It is $.20/lb not a gallon. Just want to make sure as hfcs is now $.24/lb delivered. on a full load that is a savings of $2000. But I would rather feed sucrose in the spring and hfcs in the fall. But if they use enzymes to invert the sucrose instead of acid and heat it may be stable for the summer. That is if I can keep it cool from what I hear you telling me?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

From the bees point of view you want to feed sucrose in the fall and HFCS in the spring. You don't want to feed a bad batch of HFCS in the fall, too hard on the bees. Some of the oldtimers in Canada told me this years ago. If you get a bad batch in the spring the bees can sort of recover from it. 

Jean-Marc


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