# Can spaced top bars prevent cross cromb



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

If you spaced the bars you would need something over the top bars, so it wouldn't be a top bar hive. Comb guides do a good job of reducing cross comb in the brood nest. Things can get wonky fast in the honey stores.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

shannonswyatt said:


> If you spaced the bars you would need something over the top bars, so it wouldn't be a top bar hive. Comb guides do a good job of reducing cross comb in the brood nest. Things can get wonky fast in the honey stores.


Is it the wider requirements of honey stores or something else going wrong that results in cross comb farther from the entrance ? 

To the untrained eye like mine, warre also looks like topbar / frameless. The top most box of warre appear to have similar situation where the quilt box covers the top. 
Some have suggested similar quilt box for TBH for humidity (winter) control. So wondering what would happen if spaced out bars (with pins) were to be presented in TBH with quilt box covering the top.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I had a TBH last year where I tried to super it, so I spaced the bars a bit wider. The only thing it resulted in was angry bees and more small hive beetles. I have not experienced cross combing on any of my bars. I reduce the amount of open space the bees are given initially by moving the follower board so they only have about 8 bars to start with. All my bars have comb guides on them. As I insert more bars, I tend to put them between drawn comb, which is a major factor in keeping things straight. I do have about 3 empty bars at the end by the follower board, and sometimes they build on them; but my bees show a definite preference for building new comb between drawn comb (brood nest).


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I do that as much as I can, but with a bunch of hives and a heavy flow you can go in on one day and come back a week later and have 3 new fully drawn combs.This is when they can get crossed.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

The answer to that is ....beespace. the kenyan topbar is 1 3/8", if it made right. The warre topbar 1", + a 3/8" space. Adds up to... beespace. It is the spacing of regular Lang frames. 1" combs, 3/8" space. Too small to make a cell, too big for propolis. Thats why your inner cover in Lang hives keeps the bees from gluing the roof onto the bars. I put a 3/8" lift onto Warre hive quilts, or just use inner covers. If you have 1& 1/2" the bees will build comb till there is ...3/8" inch between. Too deep for the queen to lay properly. Too close, the bees move the gap they want,(3/8") to the edge of the topbar, then (usually by#4,) build a comb right in that area between bars. And, that one is a real cross combed beauty, making you tear up 2 or 3 combs. ______This works......, make the starter strip too wide for the workers to touch the topbar at all, 3/4" or even more. Then, waxx the edge. Most of it will just go away, as they draw below the topbar first. Good luck !!! It works the same in topbar, Warre, or foundationless frames. And, of course, Always! use a spacing of 1+3/8" from center to center in any hive.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Thanks all. So essentially it doesnt matter gap or not, as long as center to center is 1 3/8" ? Trying not to generalize, but that seems about it.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Basically. The better the comb guide the better the results. Some folks run 1 1/4, and I've seen mention that some folks run 1 1/2.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Shannonswyatt, some people use 1+1/4" spacing for really small bees. Like africanized, but if they get fed better, they get big, too. And, btw, then makes a mess of a topbar hive. If you want to use 9 frames to make fatter combs, such as for cut comb honey, you can use 1 1/2" spacing in a super. Its just special purposes, for a result, not permanently. I have done both, and it just doesn't make a good broodnest either way. Most people just don't, it's one more thing you have to do for maintenence. Im sorry if I seemed too rigid, I was trying not to be confusing.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Actually, the standard spacing for the broodnest used by many of the Founding Fathers of American Beekeeping was 1 1/2 inches center to center. Charles Dadant followed the lead of Moses Quimby and made his brood chambers that spacing. The range in a brood chamber can be 1 1/4 up to 1 1/2 inches, they all work, some better than others. A. I. Root was the leader in making 1 3/8 inches center to center the standard spacing in the Langstroth style hive, but he even said in later years that perhaps 1 1/2 would have been better.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

Daisy, I had a hive with bars like that (spaced) for a couple of years. The bars were also wedged and 1 3/8". I had no cross combing, but like Shannon said, the bees can often build faster than you can inspect. I had some combs attached only on one side of the wedges as each comb pushed outward a bit farther than the last. I had parchment paper over the bars until I wanted to super. It was too slick for the bees to work, so it kept them from propolising the roof. I ended up ditching the experiment since supering didn't work like I thought it would and it wasn't nearly as fun to inspect that hive as my standard top bars hives. All my hives now have 1 1/2" bars and are doing fine.


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## MartinW (Feb 28, 2015)

- Will spacing the top bars prevent cross combing ? 

I'm a new beekeeper overwingering three TBHs. My top bars are 1-1/2" with a waxed string as a guide. After working the hives last year, I found this system worked fine. I had to correct for cross combing when I missed multiple inspections or if the hives moved out of level along the length of the hive body. 

Once I had drawn bars, it was easier to expand the brood nest or honey stores when including a straight comb on either/both sides of a new bar. Having a straight bar with comb seems to make the process easier. 

In any case, correcting for cross combing, was not very time consuming, and did not significantly diminish the experience of having TBHs for me.

Good luck.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Will spacing the top bars prevent cross combing ?

Gaps don't matter at all as far as cross combing. Spacing from center to center matters a lot. Every bit more than 32mm in the brood nest will make more cross comb.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#framespacing


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

>Spacing from center to center matters a lot. Every bit more than 32mm in the brood nest will make more cross comb.

And combs get thicker and wider spaced, sometimes up to 2 inches, as they get farther away from the broodnest.

Tbh beekeepers who use a single width top bar based on broodnest spacings, will notice combs drifting off center. That accumulated drift can quickly center a single comb on two adjacent top bars.

Different width top bars or spacers can prevent this problem.

I like spacers. And make them by ripping a few top bars into 1/4" strips. That way, I can add one or more between top bars when needed.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

BWrangler said:


> >Spacing from center to center matters a lot. Every bit more than 32mm in the brood nest will make more cross comb.
> 
> And combs get thicker and wider spaced, sometimes up to 2 inches, as they get farther away from the broodnest.
> 
> ...


For my TBH's I like to put the undrawn bar in the brood nest between drawn comb so it comes out nice and straight. If I notice a comb getting wider on top with "honey fins", I will either slice the fins off into a bowl to enjoy, or I move that whole bar down to the end for them to continue storing honey in (and later harvest via crush 'n strain). Most of my new bars will get drawn out between drawn comb, so it never gets off center. It does mean I am doing a lot of comb shuffling, but my bees don't seem to mind, and I consider that part of my management style.


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