# Noob, first mead



## ColoradoRaptor

Good choice of mead! I love Cyser and have made many! You didn't say where you got your apple cider? I use local fresh cider without preservatives. It is important you use a cider without any preservatives! Your choice of honey is interesting, never used mesquite. I like wildflower or clover for my cysers. Acid blend is best used after fermentation to taste, not before as honey can get very acidic during fermentation without it. I always use K2CO3 to control the acidity during fermentation. Raisins are generally used as nutrient and the most common is the dark raisin. Your yeast should be fine though I have no experience with it. I exclusively used Lalvin yeast though now I only use Wyeast 1388. Cheers!! :thumbsup:


----------



## Ravenseye

Sounds great and I may try it. I just started making mead and I now have 12 gallons of all kinds in one of my cellars. They're in varying stages of the process since I just started a month or so ago. It's quite an interesting learning experience.


----------



## kramerbryan

Welcome. I'm interested in the progress.


----------



## ducatidom

ColoradoRaptor said:


> Good choice of mead! I love Cyser and have made many! You didn't say where you got your apple cider? I use local fresh cider without preservatives. It is important you use a cider without any preservatives! Your choice of honey is interesting, never used mesquite. I like wildflower or clover for my cysers. Acid blend is best used after fermentation to taste, not before as honey can get very acidic during fermentation without it. I always use K2CO3 to control the acidity during fermentation. Raisins are generally used as nutrient and the most common is the dark raisin. Your yeast should be fine though I have no experience with it. I exclusively used Lalvin yeast though now I only use Wyeast 1388. Cheers!! :thumbsup:


Both the apple cider and the honey came from Trader Joes. Cider is all natural with no preservatives.Honey choice was made because it was the only variety they had in a 3lb container that day(maybe any day?). SG was 1.144 though, so I may cut back on the honey next time. The Cote de Blanc is tolerant to 14%, so it will finish sweet, in the future I think I want to aim for being able to sweeten to taste. Also good advice on the acid blend, and the raisins were what I had on hand.


----------



## Tenbears

Yes, This will finish with considerable sweetness. Although Red star list Cote de Blanc as having low fluctuation in alcohol tolerance The also list it as between 12 to 14% which seems like an oxymoron. Anyway, I find it tends to finish closer to the 12% than the 14. As for back sweetening, This is a good practice and offers better control. Again nothing is without it's drawbacks. When back sweetening with honey the residual pollen in raw honey can leave a slight cloudiness or haze in the mead. For this reason, I do not back sweeten immediately before bottling. but sweeten before bulk aging, allowing it to settle and be racked off. If using store bought commercially processed honey the problem is significantly less.


----------



## ducatidom

Well, like all here I'm sure I will live thru some mistakes. Hopefully I hit nearer to 14% at the finish. Next batch will include some adjustments based on the final outcome of this one.


----------



## Tenbears

ducatidom said:


> Well, like all here I'm sure I will live thru some mistakes. Hopefully I hit nearer to 14% at the finish. Next batch will include some adjustments based on the final outcome of this one.


That is the great thing about mead making. You get to drink your mistakes. :thumbsup:


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

Tenbears said:


> That is the great thing about mead making. You get to drink your mistakes. :thumbsup:


Agreed, I have swallowed quite a few ....... :lpf:


----------



## ducatidom

Airlock activity has become pretty subdued, will take a gravity reading tomorrow morning. I will most likely rack again as well.


----------



## Vance G

Your relatively low alcohol mead should finish fairly fast, but do not judge the flavor too harshly for at least four months. Mead tends to improve radically with age. I had one batch I was thinking of dumping at 16 months as undrinkable and six months later it was absolutely wonderful and now four years later is devine.


----------



## ducatidom

Vance,
I thought 14% was pretty average for mead, and the Cote has the ability to reach that. I think the main problem was that I did not adjust my honey lower to account for the sugars in the cider and oj. So I will more than likely end up a tad sweeter than I was aiming for. 
Also according to the BOMM theory the small batch may "mature" more quickly. Not that I need it to, I entered the mead arena with the expectation of 1 yr from start to finish(aging/mature)


----------



## Arnie

Couldn't you add some water to the mead to get it to ferment a little drier?


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

Arnie said:


> Couldn't you add some water to the mead to get it to ferment a little drier?


Water will just dilute, thinning the mix??? You can't ferment in water without a source of sugar??


----------



## Arnie

I was thinking the water would dilute the alcohol content and get the yeast going again since it is likely not quite finished yet.


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

Arnie said:


> I was thinking the water would dilute the alcohol content and get the yeast going again since it is likely not quite finished yet.


Ah... I see  Unless the yeast died of alcohol poisoning they will wake up once more sugar/honey is introduced. And you don't have to stir it in either, just pour it in and the yeast will get to work with it on the bottom of the carboy!


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

ducatidom said:


> Both the apple cider and the honey came from Trader Joes. Cider is all natural with no preservatives.Honey choice was made because it was the only variety they had in a 3lb container that day(maybe any day?). SG was 1.144 though, so I may cut back on the honey next time. The Cote de Blanc is tolerant to 14%, so it will finish sweet, in the future I think I want to aim for being able to sweeten to taste. Also good advice on the acid blend, and the raisins were what I had on hand.


I have used their cider, it works well and has good flavor! I am lucky enough to have several orchards that make fresh right here where I live. Your final gravity should be around 1.040 if your yeast ferments out to tolerance. That is actually around the way I like my mead sweet and strong  I also like to add cinnamon, clove and nutmeg to mine during secondary. I have one right now that is amazing and I am going through it a bit fast according to my wife


----------



## Tenbears

Arnie said:


> Couldn't you add some water to the mead to get it to ferment a little drier?


 You can But it has to be done before the yeast quits once it goes dormant it is hard to start again (stuck fermentation) And remember, you cannot count on air lock activity as an indicator that a ferment is still going. Airlocks will bubble from off gassing long after fermentation ceases.


----------



## ducatidom

Took a gravity reading on Friday and it was at 1.030. Based on the my SG of 1.144 it looks like I am now @ 14.96% ABV, with about 3% sugars left over. I racked again and made a small nutrient addition(1/4 tsp), but I doubt it will move from where it is at.


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

ducatidom said:


> Took a gravity reading on Friday and it was at 1.030. Based on the my SG of 1.144 it looks like I am now @ 14.96% ABV, with about 3% sugars left over. I racked again and made a small nutrient addition(1/4 tsp), but I doubt it will move from where it is at.


That's good that your yeast exceeded it's tolerance! It sounds like you will have a nice cyser though I would not have added any nutrient! Nutrient additions late in the ferment can leave off flavors especially DAP!


----------



## ducatidom

****, hope it doesn't effect it much, tasted ok. Now to see what some proper aging does for it


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

ducatidom said:


> ****, hope it doesn't effect it much, tasted ok. Now to see what some proper aging does for it


If it tasted ok then you should be fine! You would know right away if DAP ruined it because the taste of it is strong and kicks you in the nuts!


----------



## Tenbears

ColoradoRaptor said:


> I would not have added any nutrient! Nutrient additions late in the ferment can leave off flavors especially DAP!


 Considering That DAP (Di-Ammonium Phosphate) is not a nutrient I would not suggest using it either, Once the ferment stops. DAP helps the yeast multiply and can at times boost a slow ferment by increasing productive yeast when infusing oxygen is not practical. Under these circumstances only a small amount should be used. If an excessive amount is used it can facilitate the development of Hydrogen sulfide, which defiantly can be considered an off flavor, as well as smell like rotten eggs!

But I doubt you would notice it in a few days.


----------



## BadBeeKeeper

Tenbears said:


> ...it can facilitate the development of Hydrogen sulfide, which defiantly can be considered an off flavor, as well as smell like rotten eggs!


And it goes BOOM! if you collect enough in an enclosed area and light a cigarette...don't ask.


----------



## ducatidom

Bought it labeled as "Yeast Nutrient", not sure if it is DAP. Didn't think to look at the specific ingredients, but thanks to the advice here I know to be careful with the timing of additions in the future.

Current batch is off-gassing, but doesn't seem to be clearing much yet. I have racked twice so far, now hoping to start seeing it clear up on its own


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

ducatidom said:


> Bought it labeled as "Yeast Nutrient", not sure if it is DAP. Didn't think to look at the specific ingredients, but thanks to the advice here I know to be careful with the timing of additions in the future.
> 
> Current batch is off-gassing, but doesn't seem to be clearing much yet. I have racked twice so far, now hoping to start seeing it clear up on its own


Yeast Nutrient is a mixture of diammonium phosphate(DAP) and food-grade urea that nourishes yeast, ensuring that it remains healthy throughout fermentation. One teaspoon per gallon recommended for wine, mead, and cider. By the way Urea is food grade urine.....


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

Tenbears said:


> Considering That DAP (Di-Ammonium Phosphate) is not a nutrient
> 
> 
> 
> :scratch:
Click to expand...


----------



## Tenbears

It is not it is an ingredient in "Some" Yeast nutrients. DAP in and of itself does not nourish yeast. it stimulates multiplication of the yeast. Add Dap alone to a must in which the yeast is starving for nutrients and see what happens! Don't believe it? Ask Dr. Denard!
We do not refer to sugar as a nutrient either, Although technically it is in the same way DAP (diammonium phosphateis) which yeast can break down to mine for Nitrogen. However, there are other compounds yeast can get Yeast assimilable nitrogen from making it the nutrient nit the DAP.


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

Tenbears said:


> It is not it is an ingredient in "Some" Yeast nutrients. DAP in and of itself does not nourish yeast. it stimulates multiplication of the yeast. Add Dap alone to a must in which the yeast is starving for nutrients and see what happens! Don't believe it? Ask Dr. Denard!
> We do not refer to sugar as a nutrient either, Although technically it is in the same way DAP (diammonium phosphateis) which yeast can break down to mine for Nitrogen. However, there are other compounds yeast can get Yeast assimilable nitrogen from making it the nutrient nit the DAP.


Nutrients are ingredients that nourish! When you cook your own food you use ingredients that nourish the body ..... yes? The stimulation you refer to is nourishment because reproduction cannot take place without proper nourishment. And sugar is nourishment for our brains, you would die without it. Not to mention sugar, honey being a concentrated form is nourishment for your bees.


----------



## Tenbears

ColoradoRaptor said:


> Nutrients are ingredients that nourish! When you cook your own food you use ingredients that nourish the body ..... yes? The stimulation you refer to is nourishment because reproduction cannot take place without proper nourishment. And sugar is nourishment for our brains, you would die without it. Not to mention sugar, honey being a concentrated form is nourishment for your bees.


 I thought we were talking about mead! So now you are saying that if one of your HIGH SG ferments stalls due to lack of nutrients, adding more sugar will help?

And adding straight Diammoniun phosphate will also help?


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

Tenbears said:


> I thought we were talking about mead! So now you are saying that if one of your HIGH SG ferments stalls due to lack of nutrients, adding more sugar will help?


LOL..... what I said just flew over the Cuckoo's nest didn't it..... :lpf:


----------



## Tenbears

ColoradoRaptor said:


> LOL..... what I said just flew over the Cuckoo's nest didn't it..... :lpf:


Now you know How I have felt for weeks! Since my doctorate is insufficient education to understand your wisdom. Please explain how adding the "nutrients" sugar or DAP to a stuck ferment which has resulted from Lack of nutrients will help the ferment? Take all the time you like to search for an answer that you can in YOUR mind manipulate to sound as though you are right.  :lpf:


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

Tenbears said:


> Since my doctorate is insufficient education to understand your wisdom.


A doctorate of what??? ...... look out schools in session :thumbsup: :lpf:


----------



## Ben Brewcat

Pause for breath gentlemen. Mazers, and beekeepers, are people of quiet dignity and who welcome all views... let's continue to be a model for our community please.


----------



## Tenbears

Again I ask. Please explain how adding the "nutrients" sugar or DAP to a stuck ferment which has resulted from Lack of nutrients will help the ferment?


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

Tenbears said:


> I thought we were talking about mead! So now you are saying that if one of your HIGH SG ferments stalls due to lack of nutrients, adding more sugar will help?





Tenbears said:


> Again I ask. Please explain how adding the "nutrients" sugar or DAP to a stuck ferment which has resulted from Lack of nutrients will help the ferment?





Tenbears said:


> Now you know How I have felt for weeks! Since my doctorate is insufficient education to understand your wisdom. Please explain how adding the "nutrients" sugar or DAP to a stuck ferment which has resulted from Lack of nutrients will help the ferment? Take all the time you like to search for an answer that you can in YOUR mind manipulate to sound as though you are right.  :lpf:


1. I never said sugar or DAP would restart a stalled ferment, you came up with that all on your own! And I'm sure you will try to find something I said that can be construed as such..... 

2. The discussion I started was about whether or not DAP was a nutrient, which it IS!! Nutrients nourish and DAP is in several different brands of nutrient! Here is one definition: "Yeast assimilable nitrogen or YAN is the combination of Free Amino Nitrogen (FAN), ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4+) that is available for the wine yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae to use during fermentation.* Outside of the fermentable sugars glucose and fructose, nitrogen is the most important nutrient needed to carry out a successful fermentation *that doesn't end prior to the intended point of dryness or sees the development of off-odors and related wine faults. To this extent winemakers will often supplement the available YAN resources with nitrogen additives such as diammonium phosphate (DAP)." Feel free to look it up with your library or google it and you will see the same. 

3. You are trying so hard to be right that you are looking foolish. So by all means keep going......


----------



## Tenbears

ColoradoRaptor said:


> 1. I never said sugar or DAP would restart a stalled ferment, you came up with that all on your own! ......



Yes, I did, I was asking you a related question! However in simple terms for you! ! Every mead makers knows that when a ferment becomes stuck (when the yeast become dormant before the fermentation has completed) as a result of of a lack of nutrition in most cases it will restart when yeast nutrients are added. Since you contend that DAP in and of itself And sugar are nutrients then the addition of either or both should and would restart the fermentation. 






ColoradoRaptor said:


> 1. I never said sugar or DAP would restart a stalled ferment, you came up with that all on your own! And I'm sure you will try to find something I said that can be construed as such.....
> 
> 2. The discussion I started was about whether or not DAP was a nutrient, which it IS!! Nutrients nourish and DAP is in several different brands of nutrient! Here is one definition: "Yeast assimilable nitrogen or YAN is the combination of Free Amino Nitrogen (FAN), ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4+) that is available for the wine yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae to use during fermentation.* Outside of the fermentable sugars glucose and fructose, nitrogen is the most important nutrient needed to carry out a successful fermentation *that doesn't end prior to the intended point of dryness or sees the development of off-odors and related wine faults. To this extent winemakers will often supplement the available YAN resources with nitrogen additives such as diammonium phosphate (DAP)." Feel free to look it up with your library or google it and you will see the same.
> 
> 3. You are trying so hard to be right that you are looking foolish. So by all means keep going......


None of which you even had a clue about until I brought it up. Dap is no more a nutrient to yeast that air is to a person It creates a assimilatable fuel Same as O2 for humane. 
Funny how you are now saying the same things about Yan I did many posts ago.
Just because some innocuous poster from who knows where refers to Nitrogen as a nutrient does not mean that it from a scientific standpoint it is. Most Humans refer to many things with common adjectives so the lay person such as yourself can understand. 
It is nice to see that you are now actually studding wine techniques and the psychological aspects involved in the chemistry involved in wine making. Rather that simply taking the advice of a Philosopher who has only been a self professed mead expert for 2 years. 

It is not a matter of trying to be right. It is a matter of preventing beginners from trying to do ferments by starting out with SG of 1.170+ and low ABV tolerance and then needing to be coached as to why their ferment will not start, or has stalled and they cannot restart it. 



*For the fourth time I ask, since you proclaim Dap to be a nutrient, and sugar to be a nutrient. Please explain how adding the "nutrients" sugar or DAP to a stuck ferment which has resulted from Lack of nutrients will help the ferment? Because That was the basis for the origional contention! *



ColoradoRaptor said:


> My poor mead making and half baked ideology has received many good reviews from vintners, brewers, mazers and friends, one of which is a wine snob who is a distributor here in southern Colorado. You can say whatever you like about me or the advice I give but at least my advice can be referenced.


 The mazers cup is coming up in march. It is right there in Broomfield Co. How about this. I will enter a straight mead. You enter one of yours. Highest Medal tells the tail. Then everyone will know who the real mead makers are! *Put up or shut up*

How bout one of your 21% ers


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

To late for entries, but you should know that..... if you were not so busy trying to talk down at me we could possibly be friends.... you are just like some wine snobs that I know..... full of yourself! Maybe next year we can enter our mead I'm more than willing to put up!


----------



## FlowerPlanter

I've got it.

How about you both send a sample to me and I will test it.


----------



## Tenbears

ColoradoRaptor said:


> To late for entries, but you should know that..... if you were not so busy trying to talk down at me we could possibly be friends.... you are just like some wine snobs that I know..... full of yourself! Maybe next year we can enter our mead I'm more than willing to put up!


Well there are still 17 spots available. I know because I just entered seconds ago. 

But ya know what! I have thought this over and Maybe I could have handled it differently. Maybe if I had PMed you and explained that I was getting Emails on my personal email from people who were following your High SG recommendations and having a lot of trouble non starters and stuck ferments you would have made adjustments in how you presented the information. So beginners would understand that it was not a guaranteed method and required sacking techniques. Maybe you would have seen that my concerns were only for the countless beginners who follow the advice of those with experience on our humble site. And that we as those with experience need to take into account that we are discussing mead making with many who are complete beginners. rather than post it in open forum. For that I was wrong. and apologize. 
We will never know what could have been at this point. There has been too much water pass under the bridge. Maybe we can just go on from here and offer what we have to offer to the beesource community without the rhetoric,


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

Tenbears said:


> Well there are still 17 spots available. I know because I just entered seconds ago.
> 
> But ya know what! I have thought this over and Maybe I could have handled it differently. Maybe if I had PMed you and explained that I was getting Emails on my personal email from people who were following your High SG recommendations and having a lot of trouble non starters and stuck ferments you would have made adjustments in how you presented the information. So beginners would understand that it was not a guaranteed method and required sacking techniques. Maybe you would have seen that my concerns were only for the countless beginners who follow the advice of those with experience on our humble site. And that we as those with experience need to take into account that we are discussing mead making with many who are complete beginners. rather than post it in open forum. For that I was wrong. and apologize.
> We will never know what could have been at this point. There has been too much water pass under the bridge. Maybe we can just go on from here and offer what we have to offer to the beesource community without the rhetoric,


WOW..... you are actually apologizing??? Then I to apologize and accept yours! You are right we should have discussed this via PM and saved a lot of grief! No there is not to much water under the bridge, I think we can start afresh and if we disagree, we should conduct that via PM. Thank you!!

Oh, I checked several weeks ago and entries were closed....... maybe some backed out??? I will look again this week.


----------



## ColoradoRaptor

FlowerPlanter said:


> I've got it.
> 
> How about you both send a sample to me and I will test it.


Maybe


----------



## ducatidom

So after a couple months of bulk aging I broke down and added a clarifier last night, this batch just didn't seem to want to clear on its own. Now it will be put back to rest some more.


----------



## Tenbears

I do a Pawpaw mead every few years or so. It takes forever to clear. Even with Sparkloid. I usually add pectic enzyme to break down the pectin haze. It is rare that a straight mead does not clear though.


----------



## ducatidom

This is actually a Cyser, and I did add pectic enzyme in the primary as the cider selected seemed rather cloudy. I am a bit surprised it didn't clarify more on its own, but not worried.


----------

