# FDA Approves TYLAN



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Just how effective is it??

Is resistance an issue??


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## Ishi (Sep 27, 2005)

I don't think resistance is a issue at this time. TM was good for 40 + years. FB only become resistent after Beekeepers started using (Tera Patties). I have no proof that this caused it only that is when resistsnce started


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I'm not convinced that Terra Patties caused resistance. Resistance came after packers started importing large volumes of Argentinian honey. Reports of antibiotic resistant AFB came from there earlier on ( not to say that it was not an issue here). What happens to all those drums with2-3 pounds of honey sticking to the sides of the barrel? I know that some of them end up outdoors for the bees to clean up.

Jean-Marc


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## Beemaninsa (Jun 9, 2004)

Has anyone seen labeled dosage/application instructions yet?


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>Has anyone seen labeled dosage/application instructions yet? 

Try Mann Lake. They (are/will be) selling the stuff.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Resistance is always an issue, and it is more effective than tetracyclines (for the time bein when used in the face of a outbreak).


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## Beemaninsa (Jun 9, 2004)

Mann Lake is not selling TYLAN but hopes to in the future.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

There's a lengthy article in the latest Bee Culture about Tylan.

George-


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## JJ (Jun 22, 2004)

Hi everyone, I havent bought any of the Tylan yet, was just wondering do you still mix it with sugar and what is the mixture? Thanks Take care JJ


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

The small bottle treats 500 gallons of syrup. I forgot the weight but it is about the 1/2 the size of a can of pop and that container is about 1/2 full.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Almost forgot....it makes syrup have a bitter taste, but bees still take the syrup. You can always tell when it is present by putting a dropon your finger and licking it....very bitter even at that small a consentration.


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## JJ (Jun 22, 2004)

Hey, How much tylan to how much syrup and do you treat more than once? Thanks JJ


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Residue is much longer than OXytet, so fall treatmetns are a must!!


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

http://www.elancous.com/products/pdfs/tylan_soluble/tylan_soluble_label.pdf

The maker says mix with sugar and dust 3X. It's not for use before you get the disease.

Dickm

[ December 27, 2005, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: dickm ]


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Sutton beeman,
Where did you get the data you posted? Just wondering where the 2 approaches came from.

Dickm


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## JJ (Jun 22, 2004)

Hi Ian, Yes you are right. I have just talked to a few people about Tylan and you must be very careful. Take care JJ


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

http://www.albertabeekeepers.org/Articles/2005TylosinLimits.html 
Quote from above article:
"What does this mean for honey producers? Is it open season to used tylosin freely? Absolutely not! Having now completed several years of trials looking at residues of tylosin in honey, I can virtually guarantee that if an application is not made according to the current fall-applied recommendations, a producers honey will exceed the WRL."

[ December 27, 2005, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: loggermike ]


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

I personnally would not feed tylan in syrup. It is also not agood idea to use it the spring it builds up way faster than terramycin and is hard to get rid of unlike terramycin. So use sparingly and be careful


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>>I personnally would not feed tylan in syrup.<<

Not to mention that it seems to be against the law!

Dickm


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{It's not for use before you get the disease.}

Since it only kills Foulbrood in the vegatative state(correct?) it seems useless. Once you've developed and noticed the disease you have (as Carl Sagan would say) "Billions and Billions", of spores in frames and stored honey starting a viciouls cycle of infected equipment that masks the disease until resistance develops and you get the privilage of watching a meltdown.

[ December 31, 2005, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It is my understanding, having not read the label myself(anybody have one?) that it (the label) reads "for the cure of AFB". Discussions here with other beekeepers, regulators and extension persons, this means that once you find AFB in your apiary that you should follow state regs on AFB(ie. burn the infected colony) and treat the others with tylosin.
NOT MY RECOMMENDATION. 

Seems to me that if you have taken care of the infected colony then you shouldn't automatically treat the others.

I also understand that tylosin doesn't "break down" as fast as terramycin, so if you use it, be careful when and perhaps, to be safe, remove all honey supers.

Mark


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>only kills Foulbrood in the vegatative state

I dont believe that is how I understood this product to work. I am going to find some literature on its recommended use.

We have two or three operations here in Manitoba that is using this product under strict watch of the cheif aprarist, and under the emergencey use act to control rAFB. This product has higher residues than Oxytet. but it is much much easier on bee brood, and is extreamly effective against AFB, rAFB. 

>>AFB in your apiary that you should follow state regs on AFB(ie. burn the infected colony) and treat the others with tylosin.
NOT MY RECOMMENDATION. 


I agree, burn infected comb. And increased culling of old comb within the operation. 

>>NOT MY RECOMMENDATION. 

So your telling me, that if your operation had an outbreak of rAFB, you wouldnot use all the tools available to your operation to help clean up the outbreak? Culling comb is one thing, but supressing the outbreak is also a very useful tool when trying to replace brood combs.
It takes time to rotate brood comb. Cant all be dont within a time span of a single season, most beekeepers wouldnt be able to handle the sudden capital expense let alone the production losses.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Ian, I look forward to what you find on the effect other than in the vegatative stage. I have done quite a bit of reading on Tylosin and Lyncomycin and may have some aspects confused. Your reccommendations of Comb culling are key and the system we've committed to after reading VanEaton/Goodwins study. We had just that problem when we started, we could not cull a couple thousand combs in a season (either from a labor or cost aspect) and have found it has to be an ongoing process.

In treatment I usually treat problems as a yard not as a hive. I don't know how though if we find AFB in a hive in April and May we can destroy the infected combs, treat the yard and be confident with a 4 month life the tylosin won't show up in out honey supers? That may (or may not)be Marks point. I would assume fall prophalactic treatement would be worthwhile, especially in the south where brood is present through out most of the year.

[ December 31, 2005, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ian, Over the years I have had, in my own operation, differing percentages of AFB above and below the state average. I find that by burning I have been able to keep my average well below the state average.

I haven't used TM for quite a few years. Since my bees go to SC, where I have an opportunity to look at each of my frames once and some twice, I have plenty of chances to see the hives that are diseased or have scale. If I find it I burn it. 

So I guess that I generally disagree with your last paragraph. I run between 600 and 800 colonies.

Joel, I am concerned about the residual Tylosin in the honey. Concerned for other beekeepers and the overall quality of honey on the shelf.

Mark


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>> It is my understanding, having not read the label myself(anybody have one?) <<<

http://www.elancous.com/products/pdfs/tylan_soluble/tylan_soluble_label.pdf

As I said: not for prophylactic use. Not in syrup.

Dickm


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, I guess I was wrong. Not ,for the cure of but, "for the control of AFB." Thanks for that link dickm.

Mark


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Thanks dickm.
Quote from label:
"Residue Warning:Honey Bees:The drug should be fed early in the spring or fall and consumed by the bees before the main honey flow begins, to avoid contamination of production honey.Complete treatments at least 4 weeks prior to main honey flow."
So there you have your guidelines right from the label.Anyone know if residue levels have been established ?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Here's the scoop from the group that did the study: Pettis and friends

Technical Abstract: Residue levels of the antibiotic tylosin in honey were determined after the antibiotic was applied to honey bee colonies. The antibiotic was applied as a dust (200 mg or 1000 mg in 20 g confectioners sugar) three times, one week apart, and both brood and surplus honey were subsequently sampled and analyzed. Tylosin concentrations declined over time in all samples. In surplus honey from colonies treated with a total of 600 mg, tylosin concentrations declined from an average of 1.31 ppm in honey sampled during the treatment period to 0.16 ppm three weeks after the last treatment. Exposure to tylosin from honey is significantly less than from other agricultural products, based on U.S. per capita consumption and an established tolerance of 0.2 ppm.

[ January 01, 2006, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Thanks Joel.I looked for it but wasn't having any luck.Gotta keep on top of these things...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Happy to hear you are able to manage your AFB levels within you operation with culling comb. Culling is probably the most effecient means of controling AFB.

I know a fellow, from France. Who follows the same logic as you Mark. He only maintained 100 hives or so. But experienced never the less. He maintained culling was all that was needed to contol AFB, and prieched it loud. 

Till he had a large outbreak, and just could not get ahead of the disease and its devestation. The problem was not only was he fighting it in his yards, but neighbours yards were also getting exposed. 
It ended up he lost all his equipment, and had to start from scratch, new comb. 100 hives would require a managable replacesment cost, but in your situation, 800 hives would pritty much floor a fellow. I'm talking complete replacement, the disease just would not go away. >

It wasnt caused by bad beekeeping by anymanner, just got caught up in a bad situation. 

His stronge advice to me is, " By all means, use all the tools available in combating this distructive disease ".


For a migratory beekeeper, outside infection should be a big concern.

[ January 01, 2006, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Ian ]


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Ian ,thats one of the drawbacks to almond pollination.There can be a lot of robbing going on at times and you KNOW some of those are going to have afb.If you dont protect your bees ,who will?Afb exposure in almond pollination is a reality,not a guess(see recent ABJ articles).


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) recently set a maximum residue level of tylosin in honey. The application method preached in Alberta is 3 dustings in the fall 1 week apart.Apply 1 -2 tablespoons each application, depending on the strength of the hive. The mix is 100 grams (about 4 oz.)of Tylan to 10 kg ( about 22 pounds) of icing sugar (100:1 ratio). Used this way there is no residue in honey the next season. It is also strongly advised not to mix with syrup as this will create residue issues. It is also advised not to extract brood honey as this may have tylan residue.

Used this way AFB is no longer an issue. However bees in Alberta have a much shorter active season than those that are used for almond pollination. I don't know if the Alberta recommendations would work in California.

Jean-Marc


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ian, By all means use all of the means necessary. Integrated Pest and/or Disease Managment needs to include Managment Techniques, Medicinal Treatments and Genetics (hygenic behavior). Some will leave out the medicine and that's okay. Dilligent comb culling will help keep the stuff at bay.

Mark


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{His stronge advice to me is, " By all means, use all the tools available in combating this distructive disease ".}
(this story is a repeat for new folks)

An associate and I became aware of a 100+hive opertion in our county (1999 or so) that was badly infected do to neglect by the owner. Because we knew the owner was not taking care of his bees we offered, when he was having problems, to go through the operation (to protect us and other local beeks). I was flabbergasted. In April 80% of the hives were empty and robbed out, rotten with foulbrood. He had several nucs from the season before that had never been hived and all we could do was tell him to burn it all. He did not have bees the next year. This cycle started in 1997 when he bought out an elderly beekeeper who claimed he couldn't see any more and thought his queens were failing. The newbie Beek contacted me to look at the equipment and you guessed it, rotten with foulbrood. Despite my reccommending he not use the equipement I have to assume some of it was, thus the initial innoculation. 

Since that time inspection literally burned the local beekeepers club out of existance (which unfortunately had to be done), we've cleaned up 2 other yards with newbies who want to do the right thing and can only guess how many wild hives are infected.

I heard this person bought nucs again this year and started over (40 or so) and here we go again.

You never know who is nearby and what they are or are not doing. Those promoting the non-use of chemotheraputic agents are those who have never encoutered a serious problem. As Ian indicates it's not just about what is in your hives.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

IPM doesn't preclude the use of antibiotics. It just uses them as part of an integrative approach rather than using them as a substitute for good management and hygiene practices. Just because a beekeeper with foulbrood is using tetracyclines, doesn't mean he or she can't also be sanitizing equipment, using hygienic stock and culling combs. IMO a good IPM strategy incorperates many preventative practices with WELL TIMED, effective treatments.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>IPM doesn't preclude the use of antibiotics

IPM has taken on an entirely different meaning to some from it's original concept hasn't it?


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Forgive me, but my definition of "pest" is rather loose and not limited to multicellular organisms. IPM, as it was originally formulated applied only to crop plants, but the principles are sound, and have been used in diverse fields under different names (food safety/HACCP, epidemiology/public health, veterinary medicine/herd health, auto manufacture/TQM, antibiotic usage). Basically, I use the term to mean an analysis of risk, identification of possible intervention points and the use of probability based prevention strategies. Treatment is economically costly and must be reserved for those cases where the outcome is predictable. I realize that this is not precisely the same as minimizing field pesticide application, but the underlying concept remains unchanged.


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## SUKIE (Apr 4, 2002)

jean-marc, at 3 dustings how many hive will your 22 pound mix treat???? And why 3 dustings?????


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

SUKIE,

The mix ratio of tylan is different that that of oxytet. So always read you lable before applying. Also be sure to get complete understanding of the product from your seller,

It works in three dustings much exactly the same as Oxytet. does.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Dilligent comb culling will help keep the stuff at bay.

Mark

Remember, its your strong hives that will go down first,


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Sukie:

22 pounds does about 500 hives one time. 3 dustings is probably for the same reason that oxytet was dusted 3 times.

Jean-Marc


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>>[Tylan]Used this way AFB is no longer an issue

I don't think it's a cure all. Am I missing something? I was told this was not for prophylactic use. Only to be used when you have the disease. Am I wrong. And then, of course it kills nothing, just hides it for later.

Dickm


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>Am I wrong

nope, you're right.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

>> IPM doesn't preclude the use of antibiotics

> IPM has taken on an entirely different meaning 
> to some from it's original concept hasn't it?

Not at all - the "original concept" of IPM was
useful, and still is useful, regardless of what
one used/uses to combat pests and diseases.

I have often said in half-jest that IPM practices
do not, in themselves preclude the use of
short-range tactical battlefield nuclear weapons.

It's only half jest, because IPM was originally
a method of defining "targeted" use of some of
the nastier pesticides ever created by man,
not in an attempt to stop using those pesticides,
but instead, in an attempt to make their use
more effective, and allow less to be wasted,
leading to the stuff getting into the groundwater
and such.

So while IPM practices certainly will reduce
one's "waste" of pesticides, and thereby save
a grower serious money, the idea that "IPM"
involves or even suggests the use of "soft" or
non-toxic alternative products is an impression
given by unclear statements about alternative
approaches. What SHOULD have been said is that
since many alternative approaches don't have the
impressive kill rates of the nastier chemicals,
such products only have a ghost of a chance of
controlling pests and diseases within the
context of a well executed IPM plan and approach.

So, is a screened bottom board an "IPM Product"?
Sure it is, as it allows one to monitor varroa
populations with minimum fuss, and no disturbance
of the colony. But is it effective as a stand-alone
"pest control product"? Not in the least! It only
has value if you are going to use it within the
context of an IPM program, as it only allows you
to count mites, and is NOT a magic talisman
against mites, nor is it a product that, by
itself, will control mite populations enough to
save an infested hive.

But most beekeepers don't really want to implement
IPM, as it takes work, and worse yet, organization.
Beekeepers still want magic bullets, and when they
are told that there is no such thing, they then
ask "OK, can I buy some magic beans, instead?"

Proof that beekeepers continue to refuse to lean
about IPM is evident in the offhand statement
that so many pounds of Tylan can be used to
treat so many hives, as if the intent was to
treat every single hive with Tylan.

[ January 05, 2006, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Jim Fischer ]


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Hal wrote that IPM does not preclude the concept of antibiotics. I agreed with him. 

You wrote: Not at all - the "original concept" of IPM was
useful then proceed to talk about using chemicals:

not in an attempt to stop using those pesticides,
but instead, in an attempt to make their use
more effective

I can actually agree with that, but how does that refute what Hal wrote?


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I took issue with your statement:

"IPM has taken on an entirely different meaning
to some from it's original concept hasn't it?"

So, I took no issue with what Hal wrote, I took
issue with what you wrote.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

and what was that issue? Hasn't it taken on an entirely different meaning to some from it's original concept? Or no?

[ January 05, 2006, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Beekeepers still want magic bullets,

If by "majic bullets" you mean; cheap, quick to administer, effective at killing mites, ease on bees and brood, then yes we are looking for a magic bullet. 
Simple fact, most IPM techniques are just too impractical for most commercial operatiors, regardless of its effectiveness. Its the very reason there is still an ongoing focus on finding the better method, of what we have out there. And taking that method, and making it practical to most all beekeepers to use. 
Unfortunately, with brood diseases, our options are getting very narrow.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Simple fact, most IPM techniques are just too 
> impractical for most commercial operatiors, 
> regardless of its effectiveness.

Yes, I am well aware that a large number of
people are perfectly willing to externalize
their costs on others while internalizing
profits into their wallets. Some people call
them "commercial" beekeepers, but perhaps the
actual term should be "overextended,
undercapitalized, and understaffed beekeepers
who use marginally trained casual labor".

IPM seemed "impractical" to all of agriculture
at first, and many of the same excuses you offer
have been offered by those who see IPM as a
"cost" rather than a path to survival and
sustainability of the business as a whole.

The only "good news" is that those in agriculture
who do not invest in new techniques and
technologies suffer lower yields, and are forced
out of agriculture, often selling out to those who
did make the investment. That's why farms get
bigger over time, and that's why farming has
become more "corporate".

> Unfortunately, with brood diseases, our options 
> are getting very narrow.

So maybe Tylan can be used with a little more
restraint than prior treatments, so that
resistance does not appear quickly. Recall that
the overwhelming bulk of the colonies in North America are owned by "commercial" operators, so
even if every "hobby" and "sideline" beekeeper
on the continent indulged in massive misuse of
treatments, there simply would not be enough
mistreated colonies to create the widespread
resistance that we have seen to various
treatments.

Simple fact, you have met your enemy, and he
also has so many colonies, he isn't quite sure
at any single point in time even how many he
has, let alone how many are healthy.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Tylosin resistance will probably spread faster than tetracycline resistance spread. This is a good time for beekeepers to find a way to make IPM profitable. Also, it seems to me that many people prefer honey to cane sugar because it is "natural". Heavy relience on antibiotics detracts from this perception and will ultimately cause consumers to use "natural" sweeteners other than honey. This can only hurt commercial beekeepers in the end. When doing things on a large scale, I think that its especially important to examine non-monetary costs associated pesticides and such.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>IPM seemed "impractical" to all of agriculture
at first, and many of the same excuses you offer
have been offered by those who see IPM as a
"cost" rather than a path to survival and
sustainability of the business as a whole.


Simple fact Jim, most of these organic controls are impractical solely due to the time involved in administration of the treatment. Its the continued studdy on these treatments by the commercial minded community focusing on making some of these treatments actually practial in larger operations, and sideline all the same. In our hunt for the "magic bullet".

Its the continued support of our beekeeping community here in Western Cananda that has encouraged and sponsored and lobied for extensive reaserch on indoor formic acid treatment.

It is the commercial beekeepers who have paid for the registration of Oxalic Acid here in Canada. I know for a fact that registration of products to be used in our hives is very important in your eye. 
Going on to elaborate on ideas and inovate devices that allow the application of the OA in mear seconds. Taking that device, mass producing it and providing its usefulness to all of beekeeping.

Its our commercial beekeeping community that has been selecting and breading localized hygenic bees, to tolerate mites. And their progress has been stagering. 

Your too quick on your assumtions Jim. Perhaps we commercial beekeepers are "overextended,
undercapitalized, and understaffed beekeepers
who use marginally trained casual labor", but we are progressive, practical, and in continous search for the inovative idea that allows us to bring longterm sustainability back into our operations.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Simple fact, you have met your enemy, and he
also has so many colonies, he isn't quite sure
at any single point in time even how many he
has, let alone how many are healthy. [Smile]

So then, how have you been able to control the pests in your hives?


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>Tylosin resistance will probably spread faster than tetracycline resistance spread

It's off-label use is already being talked about. Some who are discussing using it not in accordance with instructions appear to be unaware of its intended use as a few on this thread have already pointed out. 

How many will, in the end, simply use it any old time "just in case" or as a "preventive"?

[ January 06, 2006, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

A long time ago when reading about whaling, I came acroos the line that:"Some businesses should go out of business." Maybe factory farming of bees is one of them.

Dickm
I'm not that serious, I just want people to think.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

At any time of the season, I have hives in a multitude of conditions for a variety of reasons ranging from weak to strong. So the label says I will treat the weak hive (4-5 lbs of bees) with x amount of tylan laced sugar. Now I get to the boomer, I'm giving it the same amount. Does this make any sense? Are we treating for the strong hive and overdosing the weak? Delaplanes' opinion was the reason Oxy reisistance came on was due to sublethal dosages. What didn't we learn with OXY?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So then, how have you been able to control the pests in your hives?

I let the bees handle them.









>What didn't we learn with OXY?

That antibiotics are a dead end? That propping up weak genetics is a dead end? What else didn't we learn?


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Joel,

You brought up an interesting point about dosage. I'd be interested to hear how the original label tests were done. With regard to the spread of resistance, there is solid evidence that resistance genes don't need to evolve: they can jump from other strains or even other bacterial species on plasmids. Bacteria are really adaptable little buggers.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{That antibiotics are a dead end? That propping up weak genetics is a dead end? What else didn't we learn?}

MB I hear you, see my post on winter losses. It is also a fact that with the best breeding available we are working against the natural world by overpopulating an area with a species. I think chemotheraputic or natural controls will always be needed in commercial operations. Let's keep in mind that when foulbrood wiped out beekeeping the chemical model we are using today did not exist. The natural selection of the time succumbed to a disease. If it's not foulbrood it will be some other parasite or disease thriving in the un-natural environment of overpopulation we create.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Recall that
the overwhelming bulk of the colonies in North America are owned by "commercial" operators, .....indulged in massive misuse of
treatments,

>>This is a good time for beekeepers to find a way to make IPM profitable.

>>How many will, in the end, simply use it any old time "just in case" or as a "preventive"?


I realize culling comb as the most effective method to control AFB within an operation. No doubt about that.

But tell me what IPM I can use to prevent the outside infection of AFB in my hives? 

To continual resonse I hear in regards to the formation of rAFB to oxytet, is much exactly what Jim has said "indulged in massive misuse of treatments". Which I can understand from a vantage point where by the shear volume of the product used has placed a very heavey selection pressure on the bacteria, bring upon us rAFB.

But to say the volume of the antibiotic used has been a massive misuse of the treatment is drawing a conclusion from either a false statement, or a misunderstanding of what the treatment is being used for.

General Oxytet treatment of our colonies spring, and fall is a preventative measure beekeepers have been taking in order to prevent outside infection to our honeybee hives. 
You can participate in all the comb replacement culling you want, and still have an outbreak of AFB in your hives due to neighbouring problems. This especially holds true for beekeepers who participate in pollination services, where they dont have any clue from where the colonies come from.

Until all beekeepers out there, big small, young, old, hobby, sideline or commercial, start participating in better comb culling/rotation practices and also induldge themselves to get better educated on AFB, I as a beekeeper will continue to use these products as a precautionary measure to protect my hives from outside infection of AFB.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

>> IPM seemed "impractical" to all of agriculture
>> at first

> Simple fact Jim, most of these organic controls 
> are impractical solely due to the time involved 
> in administration of the treatment.

Your misconstruing of "Integrated Pest
Management" as meaning (or having anything
to do with) "organic controls" is the essential
problem. You clearly haven't listened to your
own extension people, or read much of what
has been written about IPM, as you persist in
thinking that "IPM" is anything more than
diagnosing, so that treatments (regardless of
what sort of treatment is chosen) can be
appropriate. Its all about investing in
monitoring and record-keeping, and spending
the time and money to analyze the data.

But it is easier and cheaper to apply antibiotics
to each and every hive twice a year, regardless
of need than it is to come up with a more creative
approach that would entail something less than
100% treatment twice a year. 

Its also easier and cheaper to melt comb and
recycle frames than to stop and think and realize
that the frames themselves might need some level
of decontamination before they go back into
another hive. Antibiotics treat the bees, but
don't kill spores in the nooks and crannies of
frames, do they?

Change your practices, and you'll find less AFB.
It might cut into your profits over the short
term, but the good news is that you will be able
to remain in business at all over the long term.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Ian,

I'm not saying that its wrong for you to use antibiotics in the face of an outbreak. And it is true that your business may be hurt by people with poor management practices. Neither of these statements mean that large operations can't benefit from sanitizing equipment, comb culling, hygienic bees, good feeding practices etc. I think that Bob Harrison is familiar with large scale beekeeping and he swears by comb culling as a way to increase productivity. I'm just trying to gently suggest that you look at Tylosin with a jaundiced eye. Its an expensive, incomplete and temporary solution to a permanent problem. Sure, its great as a 'stop-gap' measure, but so was DDT for malaria control, and Baytril in the poultry industry. Ultimately the beekeeping community will be forced into finding other solutions, so why not start looking now?


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Ian wrote

>>>But tell me what IPM I can use to prevent the outside infection of AFB in my hives?<<<

Life's a b***h and then you die. Sorry Ian but there isn't anything but... Hygienic bees will pull out infected larva before it creates spores. Would you do this [requeen with hygienic stock] if there were another way?

>>> I as a beekeeper will continue to use these products as a precautionary measure to protect my hives from outside infection of AFB.<<<

Does this mean you will use Tylan BEFORE you get the disease?

Joel said:
>>>I have hives in a multitude of conditions for a variety of reasons ranging from weak to strong<<<

It seems to me that if you have this much AFB you would be better off to do something else. [Shake all the bees out and put them on new equipment, for instance].
It does sound like you and others are going to go right past the label and use Tylan just in case. 

I knew it would happen, but I'm not going to get off the subject. It shows up what the real problem is: the need for another quick fix. BTW this cr*ap gets into the honey with big feet. There will be a big story in the press about it some day and the price of honey will go down permanently.

It seems to me that we should use the predictably brief hiatus that Tylan provides to develop AFB resistant stock. 

Dickm


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Does this mean you will use Tylan BEFORE you get the disease?


I dont know. I have to learn more about the substance, but from what I have been hearing form our head bee man, is that it controls AFB same if not better than Oxytet, and is much eaier on the bees. BUT has a much longer residue hold in the honey than Oxytet. 

Its the longer residue that has got me scared of using it. Like you say dickm, just wait til it shows up in our sold honey!!

It is the longer residue that throws a red flag, and has gotten me wondering if allowing unprescribed use of this product is wise. Under a chiefs supervision would be better, added controls, but I guess they are termendously overworked as it is,..?

Dickm, Aspera, my comments were on the use of Oxtytet, not Tylan. But at the same time, we cant overlook the results Tylan can offer the beekeeping community.

>>Hygienic bees will pull out infected larva before it creates spores. Would you do this [requeen with hygienic stock] if there were another way?

Sorry dickm, I dont understand what you are asking. But I take point, hygenic stock is a direction to be taken seriously. As I am bringing ,or trying to bring sutch traits into my bees. And now I am getting more confused about IPM, and what it actually means. 

Jim, perhaps I dont have a good enough grasp on the concept of IPM to comment on it further. From your reply, it sounds that my understanding of IPM is focused off my understanding of it. Yet many other relateing comment exagerate on my understanding of it.??

But to comment on your statement,
>>Its all about investing in
monitoring and record-keeping, and spending
the time and money to analyze the data.

I think it is very important to know your pest, populations, and effects on your colonies.
Wheather it be by the hive, yard, or operation( in the veiw of cheif athourities) identifying and targeting the pest is everyones objective. 

If IPM is in short all about record-keeping, and analyzing data, then I agree, it is a very important step in combating our pests. But its only one step in the battle, and regardless how much money and time you devote to it, its still the following steps that actually show the results. 


>>But it is easier and cheaper to apply antibiotics
to each and every hive twice a year, regardless
of need than it is to come up with a more creative
approach that would entail something less than
100% treatment twice a year. 

>>Change your practices, and you'll find less AFB.

Good advice. I agree. 

I was making the obvious point that the useage of Oxytet in my operation was to help prevent the outside infection of my hives to AFB. 
I do particiapate in a yearly comb cull, because not only do I believe it will help my AFB situation in my operation, I believe the bee do better on fresher comb.

Now tell me how comb culling, or anyother IPM will prevent the infection of AFB from outside sources.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

IPM can't prevent infection from outside sources, of course. Still, with large scale agriculture its pretty easy to stop believing in germ theory altogether. The bug is *always* there, just waiting for its opportunity to cause disease. The trick is to sucker punch the opportunity by creating an environment that is not pest friendly.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{It seems to me that if you have this much AFB you would be better off to do something else. [Shake all the bees out and put them on new equipment, for instance].
It does sound like you and others are going to go right past the label and use Tylan just in case.}

DickM Re read my post and please highlight where I said any, many or all my hives have AFB. My Hives don't have AFB. While your at it why don't you highlight the section inmy post that makes any inferrence to your accusation that I "and others are going to go right past the label instructions." I have invested heavily ($2,000 in the past 3 yrs on comb and foundation, another $600 for 2006)) in the VanEatons/Goodwins "Control of AFB without the use of drugs" out of their New Zealand studies. Incidentally,just for the record, I don't treat AFB hives with anything, I burn the combs and guess what, shake the bees on new foundation as indicated in the extnesive study I go by. But thanks for the advice. Once you do rearead it I hope it is clear that what I am saying is this--

It makes no sense to treat a strong hive with the same dosage of chemotheraputic agent as you do a medium or weak hive. Whether you treat 3 or 300 for control or prevention. Most agricultural antibiotics are adminstered by weight. At least one PHD , Delaplane, is of the opinion that the reccommended dosage of TM was sublethal to AFB which contributed to the current resistance. I'm hoping that's not the case with Tylan.

Dick by we I'm curious how much money you spent over the past couple of years developing AFB Hygenic queens. Is we you, or is it everyone else. If you saw my post on winter losses you know I let 18 hives in one yard die by not treating them to develop better stock to breed from. I've invested another $400.00 in hyngenic stock this spring to breed with the survivors next spring. Now those 18 hives represent about $6500 in lost income for next season + the replacement cost of the hives. That puts me over the $10,000 investment mark, Dickm. I think I'm doing my share! I'm a little curious how much "we" are all spending to find a solution to this problem. I hope whoever "we" is finds a quick solution to a problem that we've been breeding for since bees were wiped out by the big AFB epidemic 60 yrs ago when there was no kind of fix at all much less a quick one.

I have everthing to loose if honey gets a bad name, at my hand or anyone elses. That's the soul of my business. I would suggest it looks considerably different for Ian, who I supect makes at least part of his living on bees, as do I, then someone who if their bees die from AFB their families still get to live inside and eat. I walk my talk thank-you very much.

{Life's a b***h and then you die}

I have to say I'm really disappointed, I know Ian is big enough he'll overlook your accusations and rudeness and look for what you meant to say. Your concerned about the industry! News Flash, we all are, that's why we're here!

[ January 09, 2006, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>In treatment I usually treat problems as a yard not as a hive. I don't know how though if we find AFB in a hive in April and May we can destroy the infected combs, treat the yard and be confident with a 4 month life the tylosin won't show up in out honey supers? That may (or may not)be Marks point. I would assume fall prophalactic treatement would be worthwhile, especially in the south where brood is present through out most of the year.

Joel your post from Dec. 31, I think, could be intrepreted by some that you had foulbrood and might be intending to treat hives that didn't show signs of AFB. Just my $0.02 on the matter.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Ian,
Joel says I insulted you. If I did I apologize. My question would have been clearer as a statement. "I don't think you and other commercial guys would rely on breeding until the last gun was fired." It's sort of like we won't develop energy savings until gas goes to $5 a gallon. 
When you asked how you could prevent AFB infiltration from neighboring hives and I said,
"That's tough!" ... what I meant was that it's a source of infection that's always going to be there. It's a cost of doing business. Maybe we shouldn't be able to handle that with drugs. A lot of people have stopped using Oxytet every year. Did you read the study that was done on the hives at almonds last year? They found AHB in something like 1/3 of the hives. I think that you already have enough spores in your hives that the ones that come from outside will be the smallest part of the problem. The answer lies in having colonies that are resistant. They actually live with the spores and if the disease erupts, they clean it out.

Joel,
Sorry you took offense. I'm aware of what you are doing and I applaud. I think we agree more than most about most things. You set up a hypothetical and I responded. I didn't think your real hives were involved at all so I wasn't being accusatory. [in the hypothetical] you posited several hive with AFB and how to treat them. [In the hypothetical]I read into that a sort of broadcast sowing of Tylan. OK so I was overreaching and you don't belong with those "others" that will ignore the label and use Tylan the same way they used Terra. You are right and I was [quite]wrong to lump you.

You know and I know that off label use is going to happen just as surely as we are sitting here at the computer. I hate to see the industry continue on this path. I don't have all the answers but have listened to Marla Spivak and Jennifer Berry give work shops on hygienic bees. It seems to be the way to go.

What have I invested? I got back into beekeeping 5 years ago and have worked up to 20 hives. They have never been treated with anything but FGMO and O/a. The FGMO is history. I'd be embarrassed to admit how many have died, usually in the winter. I don't have to make a living from them so I can afford losses. I may be beginning to get a handle on disease but it's been tough. I have north of $20,000 invested, over the years. It's all been an experiment in non-drug disease control. 

I bought 11 packages of Minnesota Hygienics last year. Have you ever tried them? 


Dickm


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{I think, could be intrepreted by some}

Dick Allen, thanks I guess I could see that interpretation ( if I look really hard). I know DickM is pretty balanced. I get a little prickly when folks start to make public statments about what they assume I will or won't do and it's effect on the industry as a whole(as well as my reputation and my business). I work pretty hard to do the right thing.

DickM I have ordered 25 MH queens this year. How's your stock surviving in the north. I have High hopes to continue improving our stock. It is a long expensive road. Rob Harrison has been working dilingently on this for decades without reaching the end. I don't think guys like Ian and I will be the ones that bring down the industry. If we step outside the rules, and virtually every commmerical beekeper will have to at some point to survive, we will not do it at the risk of our (our anyone elses)lively hood. There is a ton of unapproved stuff being used out their including lyncomycin, sulpha drugs and who knows what else. I am aware there are beekeepers going to public meetings and telling other beekeepers to use calf dust on their bottom boards to kill beetles. I'm concerned too, it's just a matter of time if thing continue to deteriorate.

As far as contamination here's the poop from Beltsville for those who didn't see it in my previous post. I have some additional infor to post about breakdown time in syrup etc. that I will post when I get finished. 

From Pettis & Gang studies:
In surplus honey from colonies treated with a total of 600 mg, tylosin concentrations declined from an average of 1.31 ppm in honey sampled during the treatment period to 0.16 ppm three weeks after the last treatment. Exposure to tylosin from honey is significantly less than from other agricultural products, based on U.S. per capita consumption and an established tolerance of 0.2 ppm.

In light of this, I think we may be overeacting.

[ January 10, 2006, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>> Joel says I insulted you. If I did I apologize.


I dont take offense unless I get slaged. But I dont get slagged too often









Grudges just get in the way of a good conversation. How would I learn anything here if I didnt listen to everyones opinion.?


>>I have to say I'm really disappointed, I know Ian is big enough he'll overlook your accusations and rudeness and look for what you meant to say.

Thanks for taking my back Joel!!










>>The answer lies in having colonies that are resistant.

I agree. Breading for tolerant trait is the key to the future!

Its the stronges hives that will crash first in a yard, or near a yard infested with AFB. Same principle as varroa infestation from outside sources. The stronge hives are the most active on robbing out other hives.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>The bug is *always* there,

I dont really know if I agree with that. 


If the bug was always there, you would think that failing hives, due to queen problem or mites ect, would always fall to this disease as the hive weakened. But thats not the case. 
Seems to me, from people I have talked to who have been through an infestation, make out as if it came into thier operation. It was so invasive that it distroyed everything to the point where they had to shake everything into new equipment, to get rid of the diesease out of their operation.
This fellow hasnt seen it sence. This fellow isnt the one I was talking of earlier, 

That tells me that the bug is spread,


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Joel,

>>How's your stock surviving in the north. I have High hopes to continue improving our stock.<<

Of the 11 packages from La, 3 queens never took off or died early. I requeened but don't think they will winter. I was a tough dry summer. A 4th queen was the 13% africanized I've written about on other posts. I had to kill the colony. I think I have 5/6 that seem to be wintering. Wintering here is the big screen. The rest are carnies and Italians. I intend to breed from the survivors this year.

We actually aren't that far apart, at least in summer. Perhaps we'll meet some day. In a day or so I'm leaving to do some beekeeping "in the trenches," helping a Fl 'keeper do a few hundred splits and move a thousand hives. I've done this before. I'll know more of what I'm talking about when I get back. This is how I get a whiff of the crap that goes on in commercial beekeeping.

Dickm


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