# a little info about swarm traps



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Great stuff yoyo.

I also have mentioned the swarm book put out by Root Publications several times now. It covers about everything about swarms, swarm trap placement, types, etc.

It was 5 dollars last year including shipping, so maybe it went up. You can order by calling 1-800-289-7668 item #X56 - Swarming

Well worth the money for this small book.


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## Benton2569 (Feb 26, 2007)

Good info - I just built a swarm trap and cant wait to set it out this Spring. With only 3 hives a lost swarm is a big set back.


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## yoyo (Jun 13, 2007)

Got 3 hives myself and two strong enough to swarm. I need to build a few myself. What did you build? I think I just might build some nucs and use those. I might can scrounge some waxed produce boxes and tape them up.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

In my experience, nucs don't seem to catch as many swarms as a larger trap. Saw some research a couple years ago where the researcher found a similar thing. I get best results with two western 8 frame deeps.


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## yoyo (Jun 13, 2007)

now that you mention it , I did read somewhere that a big sized box was better than a smaller one. I don't remember where it was though. I guess size does matter!


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## kbee (Mar 6, 2005)

I've had very good luck with 5-frame boxes. In the last two years have trapped 21. For me the smaller boxes are accepted well and are alot easier to place. I think location is more important than size. Using a box with a screwed on bottom and top is much easier to get out of the tree.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*Twins*



kbee said:


> I've had very good luck with 5-frame boxes. In the last two years have trapped 21. For me the smaller boxes are accepted well and are alot easier to place. I think location is more important than size. Using a box with a screwed on bottom and top is much easier to get out of the tree.


I could have written that except for the trees part, and I only got 20. I'm gimp in the leg department so I go for top of walls, outdoor tables, top of firewood piles, easy grabbing and walking in the dark when I go for pickup. AND I AM GOING TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE BETTER FED THIS YEAR. Lost some to placing in a poor yard.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Of course some will have success with larger and smaller boxes. Things such as competing nesting locations will effect ones success to a degree, among other things.

Dr Thomas Seeley of Cornell, did extensive swarm studies and bait hive research in the 70's. Many years of controlled studies indicated that bees prefer a volume of around 10 gallons.

Of course one can go larger or smaller. And if one used a larger or smaller cavity, indicating a number caught does not indicate success. It indicates the number caught. It does not indicate the number that flew elsewhere.

I'll mention again, the book I mentioned earlier. For five bucks, its well worth it. And if it helps you IMPROVE your success by giving you BETTER chances, then it pays for itself.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Clean traps with and without Pheromone 19-3

Used traps with and without pheromone 13-4

Traps with comb and without 11-3

They missed an important control, without and without. 

Bjorn is right about them not measuring success, because they do not know how many got away. They have no idea how many swarms where in the area and the % caught. So I am not sure what they study is showing. The #s don't really mean anything except that when the 19-3 trail was done, more hives swarmed.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Bluegrass, (I figure you know this...just for conversation sake for those who don't have the book.) Much of the book is paraphrased and written to suggest the results, but not the details of the actual study. That would require going back and looking at the research and pdf files, etc. It does not detail the actual studies. One of the things the book points out is that in studies, bees preferred a certain size box over another, when given side by side options.

If you take this a step further, and imagine your competing with any other possible nesting sites within your apiaries vicinity, then it would only reason that having the optimal trap that bees prefer would give you the best shot. Yes, the study did not track how many got away. But it does make clear in studies, that bees do prefer a certain bait hive.

The numbers you show suggest how many swarms were caught with and without such stimuli such as pheromones. A different subject matter altogether.

But if one wants the best chance to catch swarms, there are very specific studies that have shown what gives you this best chance. Includes such items as trap size, placement, locations, shade-sun, baited/not baited, etc.

I had read some of the studies somewhere. Not sure where. Maybe Cornell has them on file or were posted in ABJ, etc. I don't earmark alot. But the studies are out there for that extremely bored person fighting the winter blues.. 

The book just suggests guidelines to be used as found in studies to give you the best shot. Not the full study material.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Bjorn:

<Dr Thomas Seeley of Cornell, did extensive swarm studies and bait hive research in the 70's. Many years of controlled studies indicated that bees prefer a volume of around 10 gallons.>

That's the study I was thinking of.


kbee:

<I think location is more important than size. Using a box with a screwed on bottom and top is much easier to get out of the tree.>

That probably accounts for my lack of results with small boxes. I live in a poorly managed national forest where there are so many old and dying trees the the swarms probably have hundreds of better locations to choose from.


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## Reno310 (Oct 15, 2007)

BjornBee said:


> I also have mentioned the swarm book put out by Root Publications several times now. It covers about everything about swarms, swarm trap placement, types, etc.
> 
> It was 5 dollars last year including shipping, so maybe it went up. You can order by calling 1-800-289-7668 item #X56 - Swarming
> 
> Well worth the money for this small book.


You can order this online as well:
http://www.beeculture.com/store/index.cfm?action=showproducts&CatID=89


Reno


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## Benton2569 (Feb 26, 2007)

I built a few 5 frame nucs out of extra plywood that I plan to use. In my mind this is more versatile for me: Can use one for a swarm trap and others for splits etc.

Since I have never done this before I am going to try it and see what happens. Each year seem to loose a swarm so what the heck!


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## yoyo (Jun 13, 2007)

So now that that's out of the way, what is your lure of choice? I have some lemmongrass oil I purchased and I am curious as to how many folk have had success with that and/or actively use it.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

sierrabees said:


> Bjorn:Many years of controlled studies indicated that bees prefer a volume of around 10 gallons.
> 
> Let's do some math...help me. A deep super inside is approximately 14.75 inches wide X 18.5 inches long by 9.6 inches deep. 14.75X18.5X9.6= 2620 cubic inches.
> 
> ...


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## kbee (Mar 6, 2005)

I use lemongrass oil in all the swarm traps. A few drops on the top bars in the trap with 1 drop on the outside cover. I also put 3 foundationless frames and 2 drawn comb frames in the trap. I check them once or twice a week and put an additional drop or two inside.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

What part was to hard to understand odfrank?

Nobody said you can't catch a swarm in smaller cavity. My comments were along the lines of giving the BEST advice that studies have shown in side by side tests of different size swarm traps offered to bees.

I even went as far to suggest that availability of competing nesting sites and other factors play a role in success, no matter the size.

Just because you caught a swarm in a small trap does not mean that this is the best size, the best advice, or the best situation. Do you know how many got away? Did you do as the study and offer different size cavities, before you came to some conclusion? The study merely suggests that bees do in fact prefer a certain size trap. And if you can imagine that your human placed traps are competing for swarms with natural nest sites, then using the best known desirable trap may even produce more swarms than you cuaght with your traps.

Does that mean you will never catch a swarm in a smaller trap? No. That's not the point to my comments. It had to do more with offering the best advice possible, proven by studies, and not by casual observations.

I honestly don't know why this is hard to understand.

Please odfrank, step back, read the comments again, take a deep breathe... 



odfrank said:


> sierrabees said:
> 
> 
> > Bjorn:Many years of controlled studies indicated that bees prefer a volume of around 10 gallons.
> ...


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

BjornBee said:


> What part was to hard to understand odfrank?
> 
> Why are you again personally attacking me and making me out to be some kind of idiot? I wasn't commenting on YOU or YOUR post. I was tabulating what size box equals ten gallons. Don't take yourself so important, it wasn't about you.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

You quoted me, asked for help, and I responded. Now your crying about it. go figure. I tried.


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

I've also heard that European honey bees prefer the 10 gallon swarm trap over the 3 gallon swarm traps that Dadant and others sell. And with the proper sized swarm trap AND with a swarm lure, it seems that you can't lose, right? (Yeah, right...) 

Seriously, I've read before that while smaller traps *can* be used, more success with European bees can be had with larger traps. (African bees, on the other hand, preferred the SMALLER traps of approximately 3 gallon size.)

It should also be noted, the ideal height of the traps seem to be between 10' and 12' feet.

So...

12' feet up, 10 gallon trap AND swarm lure? It seems IMPOSSIBLE to lose a swarm to the trees, right? (Again, yeah, right...) 


This year, unless I just happen across some 10 gallon peat pots, I'm just going to use cardboard nucs, placed 10' feet up in a tree, with swarm lure, about 50' feet away from my most "swarmy" hives.

Unless anyone has a better idea, wish me luck!

DS


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Justin O. Schmidt (I think that's how you spell his name=I'm just to lazy at the moment to double check it) developed a lot of the "technology" that we use today for swarm trapping. He did a lot of research into trapping swarms, particularly AHB. 

One thing I distinctly remember is that AHB prefer smaller cavities, which if you are trapping at the ports of entry, smaller traps are a good thing. Here in SE Missouri, not such a good thing. He said AHB like traps in the 5 gallon range.

He was also quite found of traps measuring 31 liters (yeah, those government types love the metric system). If a liter, by volume, is equal to 1.057 quarts, then 31 liters is equal to 8.19 gallons. That's pretty close to 10 gallons.

Compared to nucs, mediums and deeps, my six-frame nuc/swarm trap comes in at 5.68 gallons. Maybe I need bigger traps. A medium super is 6.51 gallons and a deep/brood box is 9.46 gallons.

Still, I seem to do pretty good catching feral swarms with my nuc boxes baited with pheromone lures. I've tried the 5-frame MDA "splitter" boxes made of waxed cardboard. They caught swarms, but the cluster could not fit into the whole box.

Try getting one of those babies home in the back of your van!

Grant
Jackson, MO http://www.MakingPlasticFramesWork.homestead.com


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## cdanderson (May 26, 2007)

Okay, how do you guys get these things up in the tree, attach them there and then get them back down ? 

You discussed height 10-12' and one person metioned about 50' from the hives. I would like to hear more about successful trapping.


charlotte


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## kbee (Mar 6, 2005)

I try to catch feral swarms,so my traps are spread far apart. Sometimes miles apart. I try to use deer hunting stands if possible. Also easy to get into trees that I can bungee a trap in. It hasn't been that hard to find good places. The edges of fields, hedgerows or pastures work well.


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## Durandal (Sep 5, 2007)

Which would be considered better? Lemongrass extract or pheromones?

I have a couple vials of pheromone. Can you use both or does it get silly redundant?


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## yoyo (Jun 13, 2007)

So , a deep brood chamber, or CLOSE to that size, up about 10-15 feet is a great choice( avoided the word "best"). Lemmongrass oil is a GOOD attractant(avoided it again).

Now, what is a preferred or good way to deploy the oil? 
I have read above that just a dab on the top bars and I have read elsewhere about using cotton balls inside a ziplock baggie with a few holes punched in. 

What is the average time before you need to reapply the oil?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>what is a preferred or good way to deploy the oil? 

I put a few drops on the top bars in the bait hive.

>What is the average time before you need to reapply the oil?

Once a month would probably be wise. I do it once a year.


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## kbee (Mar 6, 2005)

I have used both lemongrass oil and pheromone lure and both worked equally well. The lemongrass was much cheaper. Now I only use lemongrass. I use an eyedropper and drop it on the topbars and add another drop or two each week. It sounds like I don't need to use that much but it's cheap and the bees like it.


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

i hope to keep my few hives from swarming this season,and i dont think we have many feral honey bees in this part of the world(i know quite a few loggers who all say they have found one or two hives in the last 15 to 20 years,and i only know of one feral hive in an old cottonwood)so i dont think i would be catching ferals,on the other hand a couple large bee keepers have 20 hive outyards on a couple ranches close by,i dont think they practice alot of swarm control so....would i be out of line to place swarm traps in these areas around mid july?i think they would be ticked if they saw me,but these swarms would be lost anyway.i know landowners close by.it must be winter and i am thinking out loud.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

It was asked how you get them up to 8' to 10'

I walk the fence rows of property where I have permission to post traps. I use an aluminum extension ladder and find a tree with a clear spot. Some people think a fork in the tree is attractive to the bee, I just find a spot I can get the ladder stable and a clear spot on the tree.

I pound a 6" spike into tree (my apologies to those who think this is horrible). I can get these nails at my local hardware store in the section where they sell bulk nails. They run about 60 cents a piece.

My swarm traps are wood nuc boxes with a 1x4" strip on the edge. It has a hole in the top of this strip that fits over the nail. Good physical strength, coordination and balance are required to get the trap up and down. I have set traps in ravines at shoulder heighth when a ladder was not stable due to the slope of the ground. They've caught swarms as well.

For a very poorly, amateurish web site, click here: http://www.feralhoneybees.homestead.com

The site still needs to be finished. Maybe some day when I have time (yeah, ha, ha, ha!)

Grant
Jackson, MO http://www.makingplasticframeswork.homestead.com


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

Grant? It looks from most of your pictures that your wood traps are constructed of 1 inch boards at least. Can a person use 1/4 inch plywood that is reinforced with some 1 by 2's along the [some of] the edges before putting it together? This would reduce the weight. The bees can't or don't measure the thickness of the wood; can they? I mean for around here, WI., where it would get too cold [ like NOW! at 0 degrees F.] I would think in the winter for the bees to survive in a 1/4 inch box? Also, are all your traps with a bottom entrance? Have you ever used a top entrance? Another question; regarding those "flower pot" traps that are offered at bee supply places. Could a person put 2 of them together for more space etc.?


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

*nice site. great ideas...*

Grant,

Nice site you got there. I liked the swarm traps. That was just what I was looking for. 

Thanks to everyone for the information posted on this thread. Very informative.

Andy


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## timgoodin (Mar 10, 2007)

*Great website*

Grant, nice website on trapping swarms. 

I used the carboard box method last year and was VERY skeptical but actually caught a swarm. I'm sold and plan to put out a bunch this next year.

Tim


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

*Swarm traps*

Does color play any part in this. Light colors vs. dark colors. White or off white? How about camo? I've figured out the trap configuration and I'm finishing them now to hang them up next week. 

Andy


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## kbee (Mar 6, 2005)

I have traps that are painted white and traps that are natural wood color (plywood). Both seem to work equally well. If I make more I won't bother painting them. Unpainted ones blend into the surroundings better and that may be important in some areas.


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