# Do you Build or Buy your Hive Bodies?



## Swampsquash

I feel like it's cheaper to buy unassembled hive bodies then it is to buy the wood at Home depot. Maybe it's because I live in FL and there aren't vast lumber mills around me. I have had to build bottom boards, covers and even nuc boxes. But I have mostly bought my hive bodies and just assembled them. What do you guys do?


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## drlonzo

I build my own hive bodies and hive tops, etc. Although i'm able to use the lumber from the box stores. Recently I found a really good supplier of milled, kiln dried, pine wood. Gotta take 1600 board feet at a time, but as i'm planning to go commercial at some near point it won't matter much for the price i'm getting the lumber at.


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## Vance G

I personally cannot buy wood for a price that would save me money over the price I can buy budget boxes from Western Bee in Poulsen Mt. Shipping would be prohibitive I imagine for you. I get them shipped surface freight and pick them up at a local freight terminal for a pretty good rate. If you need deep frames, they have a sale on all plastic frames that is cheaper than you can put together a frame. $56 for a box of 30. Buy two of those and you get free shipping.


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## Swampsquash

Yeah they have some great prices...unfort ups ground for 50 supers is $300....:-(
So what quality of stuff do you guys normally buy?  The budget or commercial stuff?


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## spunky

I build everything else except the hive bodies/frames. I just wait till some company has free shipping and order ahead


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## Swampsquash

Yeah that's what I have been doing. I took advantage of the kelley beekeeping 15% off w free shipping in nov. I thought supers for $10 was a deal...never seen them for 6-8 like western bee sells!


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## plcnut

I build all my own boxes. I buy 1"x12" eastern white pine for around $.58 bf.
Dished handholds, box joints, Tite-bond III, and 4 screws per corner.


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## Swampsquash

Wish I could master the box joints.....I have done some with splines that worked out ok for nucs.


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## brandongunn2003

I get all of my bees from cut outs. When I need hives I fall the tree, mill the wood, dry it in a barn ,and use a half blind dovetail jig to make my boxes. ( super easy to use) I also make my own (Laurie miller) style screened inner cover and insulated hive top with moisture board. I do purchase frames and let the bees build natural foundation. I have 20 give or take hives of survivors with not much more then my time and a little money invested.


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## laketrout

Swampsquash , Just read a good article in ABJ thats suggests the rabbet joint is just as good if not better than a finger joint , as there is less end grain exposed with a rabbet joint . So don't worry about doing a finger joint when the rabbet is in some ways better and easier .


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## Tim KS

Swampsquash said:


> I feel like it's cheaper to buy unassembled hive bodies then it is to buy the wood at Home depot. Maybe it's because I live in FL and there aren't vast lumber mills around me. I have had to build bottom boards, covers and even nuc boxes. But I have mostly bought my hive bodies and just assembled them. What do you guys do?


I usually buy from Mann Lake when they have sales, plus you get free shipping when the order is over $100. I buy unassembled boxes and glue & staple them. I can put together 10 or 15 in an hour. Any cheap latex paint can be splashed on in less than an hour also.

It may be cheaper to buy boards and cut them, but if I figure my time, it gets higher priced real quick.

I've built some nucs, top & bottom boards, but only a few. Woodworking was never my strong suit.


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## Swampsquash

Oh man I hear ya.....Not my strong suit either....I have really hunkered down and tried to figure it out and the biggest problem I come up with is the crappy boards are always uneven or warped. ugh


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## LKBruns

I have found that while I may pay nearly the same per box, I can buy prime or select wood and have a lot better quality. The boxes I have ordered were of poorer quality wood and I had to reglue and nail about 50% of the boxes.


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## psfred

I have been building mine for the last couple years. Cost is about the same, and I have all the equipment sitting in the garage waiting to be used. 

Currently the local good lumber yard has #2 pine at $6 for an 8 foot 1x8, which will make a box plus trim that can be used to make another shallow or medium from a 1x6 bu gluing the trim to the 1x6. So maybe $5 per box. Deeps are more expensive, of course.

It doesn't take much time to set up some length jigs and I have a decent box joint jig. I can knock out a good pile of box parts in an evening, maybe another to cut the box joints and frame rabbets.

Shipping is a real problem cost-wise, and I prefer the boxes I make, they have more fingers on the box joints, hence more nails, and are usually heavier wood. 

I also check the scrap/cutoff bins at the local box stores, if you fish out the good ones, it's possible sometimes to get the price for a box down to $3 or so for wood. 

Suit yourself -- factory boxes are just fine, I prefer to use all that woodworking equipment to make mine since I don't need many. Make my own frames, too, but I don't recommend that unless you want to do something unusual. Way too much fiddly stuff in making frames!

Peter


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## Colino

I make all my own wooden ware, even most of my frames. I scavenge the majority of my material. First time I bought wood in 3 years was this year I bought enough 1x8 for 30 boxes for $39.99. It was a clearance bundle marked down from $150, I couldn't resist. I use rabbet joints, with everything glued and stapled with 1-3/8" staples. I scavenge paint from the recycle bin at the collection centers. There are some modular home builders near by and they throw out full 5 gallon pails of paint, even primer. The only problem is you don't get much of a color choice. 
Colino


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## Paul Reyes

If you on a tight budget then its not a bad idea to build the hive bodies yourself or you can get some already used equipment. If you do go the used equipment root just make sure the equipment is in fine condition, the last thing you want is equipment that can infect your bees.


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## My-smokepole

I was making all of my boxes. Started out with rabbit. Joint and over time I have seen loose couners. Move to fingers and started to pull my hair out. I have a amish person. That is just a cople of Dollars more than I can build them. Not counting my time cutting fingers or the frustration of cutting them.


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## beepro

I use osb boards to built my hive bodies.
Those hives will last me a long long time.


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## Mr.Beeman

I get 1x8x16 for less than 9.00. I can make two medium hive bodies and two inner cover frames with it plus a few entrance reducers.
I make everything but frames during the winter months.


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## NCbeek

I've started using plywood. Can get 5 deeps and a medium with a strip left for handholds out of one $25.00 sheet. Makes it about $4.00 a box. I enjoy building them. I call it my therapy time. Nobody bothers me when I'm running the saws and I don't think about anything else. Haven't built frames yet but going to try this year and see how it goes. Tops and bottoms get made from scraps and found wood.


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## Mike Gillmore

I build all of my boxes now. Using rabbet joints you can build a medium with a 6' length of 1 X 8 with very little waste if you are careful with your cuts.

I kept an eye out at the lumber stores last winter and jumped on a great deal at Menards when they put 12' budget boards on sale. I was able to build about 30 medium boxes for less than $3.00 each. I had to look through a lot of lumber to find 15 decent boards that were not warped or cupped, but I pulled it off. 

They had quite a few large knots as well, so I took my time figuring out where to make my cuts to avoid knots on the ends of the boards. It worked out great.

With "regular pricing" at the lumber stores I'm not sure it really saves that much money over buying pre-cut boxes. But if you can catch a good sale you can save a bundle if you have the time and ability to build your own. If I had to build a "lot" of boxes I would probably just purchase them ready to assemble. For me, it gives me something to do during the winter months while I'm waiting for the warm weather to return. Cabin Fever relief.


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## BeeMoose

Even though I am a woodworker, I choose to order my hive bodies and mediums from an on-line retailer.

I have checked at Lowes and Home Depot and have found that I can actually buy them precut and dovetailed cheaper than I could build them, in my area anyway. Plus I don't have the time invested in doing them myselves, I find the quality of the woood is better, and there is no waste or sawdust.

The cost of wood in my area has become prohibative and I'm going to start looking for a small mill as a source.


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## Acebird

You don't have an option for those who do both like myself. It is quicker to buy the boxes and assemble them and it is cheaper to make them out of scrap wood. The best choice for me is scrap stair treads. Construction sites many times build temporary stairs and then get rid of those and replace with finish stairs. A stair tread is made out of 5/4 fir or pine with no knots.


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## Michael B

I have been building my own equipment for a few years now. If you buy Home Depot lumber there is no cost savings and you have to do all the work. Finding a local sawmill is the best option for quantity and quality of lumber. Some mills have kilns but most don't. I find it easier to buy at the end of summer and sticker the lumber and let it finish drying. I have built a solar kiln out of an old greenhouse and they dry down to about 5-6% moisture in a few weeks. I can build deep hive bodies for around $4 each. I buy 14' 1x12's and all the extra lumber us used for bottom boards, inner covers, and outer covers. So doing to math $4 for the hive body and the rest is free.


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## lazy shooter

Just for statistics, I voted that I buy all of my wood ware, mostly from Mann Lake. Beekeeping is strictly a hobby for me, as I give all of my honey away. I'm 75 years old and spending some of my children's inheritance for fun in my twilight years, so I don't really figure into what is best. Were I a youngster, I would build my own boxes with rabbit joints. I worked my way through college as a carpenter in the early 1960's and have the expertise, but at my age time is a much larger consideration. 

Like NCbeek, I can see constructing boxes as therapy time. When I plow or use by big old John Deere, it clears my head.


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## MTN-Bees

I buy woodenware unassembled. The prices have been good on woodenware if look hard. The prices for lumber in my area is not cheap and I don't have an area where I can set up a full shop right now. A full shop is in the future, after that I will reassess.


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## TalonRedding

You would be surprised how much equipment can be built during "spare" time throughout the year. 20 boxes here, 15 there.......there is no reason someone couldn't build enough for 1-200 colonies in a year's time, especially during the winter when chores around the house/farm are at a minimum. If only I had the equipment to build frames......


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## shinbone

Wow! I admire those who build their own. Digging through the "budget" pile at Home Depot, visiting building sites looking for scrapes, waiting for things to go on sale, finding discarded trees and a lumber mill willing to cut it for free to break in their new equipment.

I work full time and have other committments besides beekeeping. I am not rich, but still, time is my most precious commodity. I buy my woodenware precut from Betterbee and then assemble myself. I get killed on shipping. I don't paint anything, instead relying on our dry Colorado climate to preserve the wood. Even then, I am constantly behind the curve on having equipment ready on time.

I am hoping I am close to done with the wooden ware acquisition phase of beekeeping.


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## Acebird

TalonRedding said:


> If only I had the equipment to build frames......


Keep in mind that the bees could care less what the frame looks like. With just a hand saw and a hammer you can build frames using but joints supported with tin brackets if time is on your hands.


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## bevy's honeybees

When I started increasing, my sweetie offered to build the hives, and he has made about 12 coats nuks for me over the past couple years. We found out real quick it's cheaper to buy unassembled (at free shipping, jredburn, or Dadant pick up) and do it that way.


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## BeeCurious

I build all of my 5-frame equipment, and the accessories (bottoms, inner and outer covers) for 8-frame hives, but I buy 8-frame boxes. My last couple of box purchases have been budget boxes, and I haven't had a problem with them.


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## TalonRedding

Acebird said:


> Keep in mind that the bees could care less what the frame looks like. With just a hand saw and a hammer you can build frames using but joints supported with tin brackets if time is on your hands.


That's true Ace, and that is an idea for someone who has five or so hives. 
I run all 8 frame equipment at the moment and with just 50 colonies (double deeps with 4 mediums) that comes out to 2400 frames. I have some spare time here and there, but not that much.
Now, if I had the correct machinery to build frames in an efficient way I would be in business. I'll just let the bees pay for that though if indeed I'm supposed to be a beekeeper.


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## laketrout

Another plus I have found in building my own wooden ware is when a need comes up you didn't plan on , a split a swarm whatever , I have on hand all the piece's I need for box's bottom boards , telescoping covers , inner covers etc. doesn't take long to get some equip. ready . Also there is some specialized equip. that you can build like cleo hogan's trap out box and reg. swarm box's .


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## Box

I also make all my bee related equipment here in the vinter months , think its important to get away from the coutch and netflix 
plus i really enjoy the process . Here a frame costs app. 10 kroner (2 usd) so i make those too and make some from time to time and it all adds up
plus I can make them the size i want 
This vinter I hope getting solved my foundation troubbles


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## WBVC

We used to built all woodenware. Now we buy unassembled deeps and make the honey super dadants.


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## burns375

I make deeps for about $3.50. I like making deeps, its pretty easy if you have the tools..... i don't like painting.


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## Honey-4-All

beepro said:


> I use osb boards to built my hive bodies.
> Those hives will last me a long long time.


Must have some new fancy waterproof glue in that OSB your dreaming of. Never in my life would I use OSB. Even if it was free.


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## Lauri

Honey-4-All said:


> Never in my life would I use OSB. Even if it was free.


Even if you PAID me to use it, I wouldn't.


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## Lauri

I buy unassembled hive bodies-on sale-in bulk. For now.

If I had to fabricate them from scratch & only needed a few hives, I'd probably actually consider 1 1/2" material. It's not only cheaper than 3/4" material, it is more plentyful in scrap form and a makes a really great hive. Well insulated naturally with breathable natural materials.

The hive bodies are not usually heavy with mostly brood. My honeysupers are standard 3/4" material with a 1x2 rim around the outside to conform the larger dimensions.

The thicker hive body is twice the weight of an empty 3/4" standard box. It really is not as heavy as it looks. 9# with cleats for hand holds instead of 4 1/2#.

I made this one out of scraps of car decking. I alternated the joints because I didn't have a router table back then to make rabbeted joints. I really liked it. Bees overwintered well with no extra prep.

I trimmed off the ends with the tongue to allow for the overlap




























Honey super is standard with rim around top and bottom.










The bottom and inner cover are shown here fully screened. I use a partial screened bottom now for ventilation and drainage without being cool and drafty. Migratory style lid has a 3/4" rubber paver mat from Home Depot to help keep it water proof. 










I've got a pic somewhere with bees in it, I'll keep looking & post if I happen to find it.


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## CtyAcres

Lauri-Built quite a few 8fr deeps that way, but found out you need glue and at least 4 long screws to hold those joints from
spliting. What's nice is you can put a normal 10fr super on them, I use deeps for supers.


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## CtyAcres

Lauri- also try building your nucs that way. Super way to overwinter bees, add slatted rack for warmth and ventilation.


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## beepro

Nope, no waterproof glue here. But plenty of deck screws though. Never thought that TB-3 is waterproof though I only use it
on the inside joints. Got them painted and waterproof with a cherry stain to make them shine.
So far so good that they lasted a season already under the hot summer sun and cold rainy winter.


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## dsegrest

I tried buying wood and building boxes. They only costs a little more than the bought ones and were almost as good. 

Lumber from Lowes or Home Depot warps before I can get it home. I had to buy the wood from Queen City. Higher quality...higher price. 

Then I learned to dumpster dive at building sites. They throw away pieces that are big enough for bee boxes. I find lots of pieces for making supers but not many for deeps.

3/4 inch cabinet grade plywood from the depot works really well for deeps. I get them to cut 2 11" strips lengthwise and then I have manageable pieces of wood. A 4x8 sheet of 3/4" plywood is a little too much for me to handle.

I use butt joints with titebond II and 4 3" deckmate screws in each corner.


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## Swampsquash

Lauri said:


> I buy unassembled hive bodies-on sale-in bulk. For now.
> 
> If I had to fabricate them from scratch & only needed a few hives, I'd probably actually consider 1 1/2" material. It's not only cheaper than 3/4" material, it is more plentyful in scrap form and a makes a really great hive. Well insulated naturally with breathable natural materials.
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Lauri I'm very impressed with your ability to think "outside" the beebox and come up with some really cool tricks for beekeeping! I'm inspired!


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## Lauri

Don't give me too much credit.
Just look a the insulated enviroment this colony had. (Trunk behind collection box) From the looks of the comb, bees have lived in this tree for many many years.











With a large entrance. Comb extended about evenly above and below the entrance.










After collecting those bees, My husband built an observation hive, similar in design. 




























I look forward to getting some bees in it this year!


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## Swampsquash

Lauri said:


> Don't give me too much credit.
> Just look a the insulated enviroment this colony had. (Trunk behind collection box) From the looks of the comb, bees have lived in this tree for many many years.
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Very Cool!

I wonder if thicker wood hive and screen top box with vent holes would be a good idea in Florida.....It's very hot and humid and I am trying to figure out what will keep the colony the happiest!


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## Lauri

When I think about R value, I don't think warmer or cooler, think more consistent-less extremes.


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## Acebird

Lauri said:


> When I think about R value, I don't think warmer or cooler, think more consistent-less extremes.


That is the way you should think. Thicker wood would make it easier for the bees to keep the hive cool in the summer for a FL location.


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## minz

Woodworker turned beek here. I buy wood by the unit (1000 [email protected] $0.40 per BF) and I would like to standardize to all mediums but I cut boxes to the widest board. 
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4267_zps535a1e3b.jpg
If you have a dato set, here is a quick (<10 minute) jig to make finger joints. 

Get two pieces of wood the thickness you want your fingers (or one cut in half). 
Put the dato stack on the saw the same width as the wood. 
Place a piece of plywood on the miter and clamp it in place
Place the fence exactly two widths from the end of the plywood 
Push the plywood through the saw (the height of the blade about the height of the finger wood) 
Unclamp the plywood, 
Place a wood finger in the slot and nail and glue it in place. 
Place the plywood against the fence (two fingers width to the right)
Screw the plywood to the miter.
Done!
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/boxjointback.jpg
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/boxjigfront.jpg
I put an extra slot in the bottom to run in the other miter slot so that I can make it more stable.
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4256.jpg
I do either single dato cut handles or Hogan handles on deeps.


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## Swampsquash

Minz.....I think I can build that....I will play around tomorrow and report back how I do...it just seems extremely time consuming cutting finger joints as opposed to rabbet or spline joints.


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## David LaFerney

Minz - that's pretty slick. Did you come up with it?


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## dsegrest

CtyAcres;1195070 I use deeps for supers.[/QUOTE said:


> That must be good for building up your arms. Do you wear tight t-shirts too?


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## Lauri

Minz, those are too pretty to let the bees gunk them up!



I'm still looking for the perfect finish to bring out the beauty of the wood grain, yet hold up in wet/exterior weather.
This below is the best I've found so far. A good soaking of walnut stain and 2 coats of gloss spar urethane. 

I use to burn them, then apply the urethane, but the burn would fade in the sun and urethane flake off.

Treating the wood with stain seems to keep the interior mosture from effecting the urethane. I've had these three years now with no flaking.










You can see on the nuc box's, I burned them, then stained. They have a bit of a golden glow and a little more grain definition.


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## Swampsquash

Ok so after playing around for a few hours I came up with this:









I got a bit more confident and whipped up a little nuc box:










Only Problem I see is that because my table saw can only handle a 3/4 dado I end up using about 60 nails per box.....Seems a bit high to me? Although it definetely squares it up lol. Pretty sure I could throw it off the roof and it wouldn't break. So how large a dado cut (fingers) do you use? and how many fastners do you put into it? Thanks


I have to figure out how to cut out handholds :scratch:


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## plcnut

I use a 3/4" dado. 

Get a gallon of tite bond 3, and fill a tray with it (try cheap containers from the dollar store). Immerse the end of your board in the glue just deep enough to coat all surfaces of the fingers. Use a foam paint brush to wipe off the excess glue.
Assemble the box in jour jig. 
Now use 2 screws from each side, one near the bottom, and the other near the top. Do this from both directions on each corner. Now use the foam brush to wipe the glue over all the end grains, and to seal around the screw heads.


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## Hops Brewster

I buy the parts and assemble. My carpentry skills are unimpressive.


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## psfred

Mine are around 13/16 or so. I suppose I could make them a bit wider by adding spacers between the stacked blades, but what I have works out pretty well. I have a good jig built (as noted above, they are easy if a bit fiddly to get exact) and it takes less than a minute to cut the fingers on a board. Not quite as fast as a dado or rabbet joint, but you can indeed throw them off the roof of the house and have them survive, that's the point.

I find it best to cut a large number of pieces for each stage of building boxes, reduces the setup time per box. Cut raw lumber to length, then to width, trying to cut every box I want at one time so they are exactly the same. Then cut the frame rest dado on all the end pieces, then set up the box joint jig and set for depth -- I always cut a complete box and verify that I'm getting the ends at exactly the correct spacing so that the frames fit but have enough play to get them out easily. Since the lumber always varies at bit in thickness, I have to set the height of the dado set empirically. Once I have it right, I can zip through dozens of boxes. 

Wear earplugs, cutting end grain slots with a stacked dado is LOUD and will certainly damage your hearing.

I added a 0.010" shim last year to the stack, it adds just a tiny bit of free play to the joints so they are easy to put together. May clean the blades better and if that doesn't tighten things up, reduce the shim to 0.005" -- I like the joint to be tight enough I have to tap the boards together.

One other note, very important: you must have a GOOD square, and ensure that your table slot is EXACTLY parallel to the blade, that the jig stays EXACTLY perpendicular to the blade, and that the blade is EXACTLY perpendicular to the table. If any of these conditions are not met, the boxes will end up out of square and racked with two corners higher than the others! Do not depend on stops on the tilt or your eyes, use a GOOD square. If you drop the square on the floor, throw it away and get another, it's bent. 

Happy sawing!

Peter


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## minz

Swamp, Very nice! I think I use about ¾ datos if not smaller. The only requirement is that they need to be smaller than the frame rest cut depth (5/8) or you need to get creative on the first dato. I have only used nails one time. For the most part I glue my boxes, set my boxes in a box jig to hold them square, shoot two screws per side and flip it. 
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/jig1.jpg
Screws hold them until the glue sets up (tightbond II flows better than III and is less expensive but needs 50 degrees to set decent).
I fill the loose knots with Elmers Exterior wood putty. 
I use full body acrylic stain from the mis-tint paint section for primer and the best deck paint I can find ($5/gal for both) two coats. 
Thanks for posting the pics Lauri, I can never figure out how to so I just post the link.
I invent nothing, just copy.


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## minz

I need to build more supers because the deeps are for the Crazy Wisconsin Beeks 
As for speed if you clamp the fronts and backs together you can cut a minimum of two sides at a time (I like 4). It makes for a nicer cut since the boards have a backing and the clamps hold them square to the table.
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4220.jpg 
this is another jig and an illustration of how I use the long side to increment the short side rather than using a spacer. I did not get the back square so I ended up with a shim.


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## Swampsquash

Yeah I know of a few tricks to speed up the cutting. I have the most luck cutting the frame rests with a router table. They always come out nice and sharp...I guess I need to build a box jig(I have never built so many jigs in my life, until I began beekeeping!) for installing all the pieces. Also really need to invest in a good dado set. My cheapo $30 vermont american (or whatever its called) causes a bit too much tearout.

I still plan to buy my hive bodies (wait for the yearly sales)....But it seems nucs are expensive to buy and sites like walter kelley don't even really sell them. So I will probably always make my nucs (Ntm if I get into using alot of nucs, I will prob make some rough plywood ones). But I need to def build a box assembly jig. That can help when installing all the boxes I buy! Any plans for box assembly jigs?


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## dsegrest

Swampsquash said:


> Ok so after playing around for a few hours I came up with this:
> 
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> I got a bit more confident and whipped up a little nuc box:
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> Only Problem I see is that because my table saw can only handle a 3/4 dado I end up using about 60 nails per box.....Seems a bit high to me? Although it definetely squares it up lol. Pretty sure I could throw it off the roof and it wouldn't break. So how large a dado cut (fingers) do you use? and how many fastners do you put into it? Thanks
> 
> 
> I have to figure out how to cut out handholds :scratch:


My table saw has a 1/2" arbor. The larges cut I can make is 7/16. I use butt joints for this reason (also I'm lazy).

I am told that Cleo Hogan has a post here to cut handholds with a skilsaw. I use the bar to add strength to the joints and because cutting the handhold reduces the thickness of the wood at that spot.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

dsegrest said:


> I use the bar to add strength to the joints and because cutting the handhold reduces the thickness of the wood at that spot.


True, the addition of a bar will add strength, but, you do no need any additional strength when using box joints.

True, the hand hold will reduce the thickness of the wood at the hand hold spot, however, this cannot be a real problem because there are millions and millions of bee boxes that have them on it.

cchoganjr


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## snl

dsegrest said:


> I use the bar (cleat) to add strength to the joints and because cutting the handhold reduces the thickness of the wood at that spot.


Using a cleat also makes it easier to carry......


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## thehackleguy

My-smokepole said:


> I have a amish person.


How much did that cost? I want one!


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## beepro

The first picture have some shiny big head nails on the left side.
Are they the waterproof nails? And do you worry about them getting rusty when exposed to
the rains over time?


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## minz

beepro said:


> The first picture have some shiny big head nails on the left side.
> Are they the waterproof nails? And do you worry about them getting rusty when exposed to
> the rains over time?


I don’t know if you are referring to my pictures, I use coated deck screws +prime and deck paint.


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## minz

duplicate, slow comuter


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## Swampsquash

beepro said:


> The first picture have some shiny big head nails on the left side.
> Are they the waterproof nails? And do you worry about them getting rusty when exposed to
> the rains over time?


Are you talking about the pics I put up? Yeah I figure in years down the road they may rust. I just used them cause they came with my walter kelley hive bodies and were leftover. I will probably be going to some type of screw going forward.


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## beepro

Yes, the galvanized nails will rust over time when the water got in.
Using the deck screws or coated nails or screws will help to waterproof them.
I usually use the black coated 1.5" screws.


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## Acebird

beepro said:


> I usually use the black coated 1.5" screws.


Drywall screws? They are already rusted (black anodized). Put them in water and they will rust like crazy.


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## KQ6AR

I'm surprised how many are building from scratch. I buy mine $10-$12 per medium & assemble.


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## biggraham610

I too find it hard to match the prices, buuut, I came into a bunch of seasoned clear shelving sooooo, Im gonna be making this batch. Think if my figures are right I have enough for 8 bottoms and 12 medium bodies without much scrap. Dont have the tools for box joints so butt joints it will be. I am going to make sure they match the appropriate design, which happens to be ML for me. Funny how different manufacturers find their bee-space in different ways.... G


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## lmholmes11

whats the cheapest place to find hive bodies? Its the shipping that jacks the price up for me


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## beepro

The cheapest way is to build them out of wood pallets. They are free on CL.
Put the foam insulation inside after assembly and then paint the outside to waterproof them.

Ace, the screws are waterproof with a layer of silicone water guard. Another way is to paint 
a layer of oil paint/finisher over them after assembly. I also put a dab of TB-3 on before painting them.
As long as they are waterproof by doing a good job they will not rust. I have some that are out there in
the elements for 4 years already. No rust seen yet. Everything is still holding so far. Besides, these are the
cheapest screws you can find at every hardware store.


----------



## snl

beepro said:


> The cheapest way is to build them out of wood pallets. They are free on CL.
> Put the foam insulation inside after assembly and then paint the outside to waterproof them.


Got a pic of those hive bodies??


----------



## Acebird

beepro said:


> Ace, the screws are waterproof with a layer of silicone water guard. Another way is to paint
> a layer of oil paint/finisher over them after assembly.


I didn't say not to use them only that they are far from rust proof. They are not good in shear because they are brittle. For a box joint it is not a problem but a butt joint could be a problem if you don't use enough of them.


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## AL from Georgia

If I include my labor, I feel I come out cheaper to buy the milled hive bodies from Mann Lake and assemble them. I also do this with frames, but I build my own tops and screened bottom boards. I always order enough to get free shipping and it helps to look out for sales. I do know that a new hive, with one deep hive body, ten frames with Rite Cell foundation, screened bottom board, aluminum clad top cover, political sign cut for inner cover, and an entrance reducer costs me about $54.


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## AL from Georgia

How much time do the folks that build their own boxes spend on each box? I know I can find cheap lumber and build my own, but I always consider my time as being valuable. I make a pretty good wage as a carpenter building custom shelving units and running wood trim in homes. If I figure in my time on milling the hive bodies myself, the price is very high. I spend maybe ten minutes per box when I use the previously milled parts, and they always turn out great. So if I get super cheap wood and spend two hours culling out twisted boards and milling each box, how much does that really cost me? Not meant to offend anyone, just another opinion on the cheap lumber method.


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## minz

I went from the Vermont American’s dato to the Oldham set. I threw a tooth on a chipper on the first run and called them up. I had a new blade on my doorstep within the week. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?292910-Dado-Blades&highlight=oldham
As for time on boxes: building about 8 at a time, it takes longer to send the wood through the plainer than any other step (and it is the only part of the job I do not enjoy). I have it timed to about 10 minutes per 12’ board. I set a stop on the cross cut saw, 15 minutes of set up and minutes per board. I cut fingers in 4 sides at a time. I would guess about 15 minutes per hive. Gluing and screwing takes about 20 minutes per (I guess I am slow at this step but have timed it). Cutting hand holds with the dato, 15 minutes set up and seconds per hive, changing set up for short sides. Cutting them with the Hogan about 20 minutes per hive. Priming and painting is kid work.
I like spending time in the shop. I find that building furniture it is more cost effective to buy good wood than pine (Pine dresser is worth about the price of the wood, red oak is heirloom). Even the maple trees I had milled last year ran me over $1k. If I figure $200 per furniture piece I am way ahead of the game.


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## beepro

On beekeeping I do things that normal beekeepers do not do. I experimented a lot to find
out what I have available since beekeeping is local anyways. I like to share good workable infos too so
we can all learn together.
Here are the composite siding boards I use along with the black screws. I also use
the long plastic coated 2" deck screws to keep everything tight and strong. I dropped it once and it did not
break. Maybe the TB-3 is holding it too. The smooth sides go inside to keep the SHB out if you have any. 
We don't have that many here maybe 1 or 2 but I like the rough side on the
outside for better painting and tinting. They make good queen nucs too. Look at these fat laying queens
I grafted and raised in these hive boxes. No need to dig thru pile of wrapped woods to find some good one. 
Since your time is money too do it the easy way when possible. These boxes are not insulated at my location. 
And they are easy to cut too. Time spent depends on how fast you like to work them. It is not that time consuming to me. 
I take it slow just to enjoy the process. But I can understand when you have the resources to get all your hive boxes too. 
The best part was they are free on CL. 4 of the 4x8 boards all cut in half waiting for me to pick up. Even the top cover was made out of them in
4 years and not even a wrap on them. It is a matter of personal preferences to use them or not. I think they may last up to 7 years or more. 
But only the manufacturer will know. They are holding out on the weather though. Can you see the painted screw heads? 


Fat queens and easy made hive boxes:


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## Acebird

AL from Georgia said:


> How much time do the folks that build their own boxes spend on each box?


 About equal to the time watching a TV program that they don,t get paid to watch. The enjoyment level it much greater though.


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## Mike Gillmore

AL, in your case you are probably better off purchasing ready to assemble boxes and spending more time pursuing carpentry projects to pay a little extra for the pre-cut boxes. 

If I had to guess I would say that many of the people who build their own equipment (myself included) are on somewhat fixed incomes and might not have the option to do side jobs and make a decent wage at it. But, they do have time available and make the best of it. For some it may also be a source of relaxation and stress relief, working in the shop.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Mike...Then there are those who enjoy the woodworking as much, or almost as much as beekeeping.

There is no pat answer. I build all of mine because there is nothing to do with the bees in the Winter, and I have all the tools for building hives in a heated shop. I do all the wood work in the Winter, take care of the bees in the Spring, Summer, Fall. 

cchoganjr


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## beepro

Yes, Cleo I build mine when it is not too cold on a warm Spring day while the bees
are building up. Once the boxes are finished it is just in time to expand my colonies again.
Isn't it fun just to know that you can build them. If you built it.... they will come!


----------



## dsegrest

Mike Gillmore said:


> AL, in your case you are probably better off purchasing ready to assemble boxes and spending more time pursuing carpentry projects to pay a little extra for the pre-cut boxes.
> 
> If I had to guess I would say that many of the people who build their own equipment (myself included) are on somewhat fixed incomes and might not have the option to do side jobs and make a decent wage at it. But, they do have time available and make the best of it. For some it may also be a source of relaxation and stress relief, working in the shop.


I would be embarrassed to charge someone for my "craftsmanship". I am not the world's greatest "marquetuer". I do enjoy making things though, and my boxes are getting better as my experience increases.


----------



## AL from Georgia

Of course, I understand enjoying the woodworking and using it as a stress reliever. This is a cool thread, I like to see what other folks are doing. The pictures are great, and I hope some more will be posted.


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## beepro

Just check out the local 1", 2" and 1 3/4" foam insulation from orange today.
Looks promising to assemble a few hives combining with the free CL shipping pallets.
Should be light weight and economical once finish building them. Anyone like to chip in for
the building and assembly ideas?


----------



## plcnut

You cannot put the foam toward the bees; they will eat it. 
You cannot put the foam on the exterior; it will deteriorate. 
So you are left making a sandwich. Now if you are using pallets, then you are looking at two layers of 3/8"-1/2" thick wood to protect both sides oh the foam. 
"Lightweight"? -I doubt it. 
Maybe you have a better plan. 

I don't *think* that bees need an insulated box. I do think that an insulated top is helpful though. 
So I build my own migratory style tops with Advantech, 1" of foam, ~3/16 (5mm) luan, and a 3/4" rim on the sides. I also have a variable top entrance that I have designed into my lids. 
I see it as being well worth the trouble to limit the influx of the suns radiant heat through the lid in the summer, as well as to reduce the chance of condensation on the lid in the winter. Therefore the time spent designing a quality lid is worth it. I don't mind condensation on the sides of the hive, so I'm happy to make my boxes with ~$6.48 worth of lumber per deep. Plus the time in my shop (a 28' semi trailer) is worth more than I would ever save by buying boxes.

BTW My criticism is meant to be constructive, but I'm not good at conveying attitude over the internet 

Merry CHRISTmas!


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## beepro

Thanks for your constructive criticism. Think of it this way. If
it is bad then turn it to positive thinking. If it is good
them put more improvement into it. Either way there is more room to improve on any project.
Your positive comments will be taken into consideration when designing
these low budget sturdy hives. Yes, I will select the most light weight
pallet boards to work with. And the foam will be sealed with an aluminum tape over the top. Bees don't like metal and the food grade thin plastic film or the thin foil on the foam will not attract the bees to chew up the board. Everything will be inside the pallet boards and painted outside after waterproofing the box. A drop test will be conducted for more sturdy improvement before the final mass production. When there's a will there is a way!


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## SugarbeatCo

I make mine, I use the incra ibox jig, I made one of hogans handhold jigs, life is good.. Frames are easy to if you have a dado stack a bandsaw and a router table..


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

I build all my own. I save money like crazy. Why would anyone who had the time not build their own?


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## beepro

Nobody show them the how to. Besides it is rather intimating seeing a
rotating saw to some. There is a danger zone once your fingers get closer to it.
Some can afford it so they rather buy than risking a finger or 2.


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## Hiwire

Its also just possible that some people can make more money at other things that more than pay for the difference in price. I know not everyone looks at it that way BUT it may make more sense to put that extra time toward something that will make them even more money that will more than cover the cost of purchasing them ready made, delivered to the front door. If time is not an issue, I think its great. I hope that some day I will be in that position! Til then, to spend an extra $3 per box, Ill let someone else do most of the leg work, bang them together, and paint them up. Either way they have to be painted and thats the worst part of it all! I think they will come darned close to outliving me anyway. Its not that I CANT make a 16 x 20 box, its do I really want to try to reinvent the wheel when I should be using my limited time elsewhere. My hat is truly off to the people that do it themselves and do as good of a job as ML, BM, BB or the others.
Ray


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## snl

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> I build all my own. I save money like crazy. Why would anyone who had the time not build their own?


Because in many cases, the cost of the wood alone, is more than the purchased price of a ready-to-assemble bought box.


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## Swampsquash

snl said:


> Because in many cases, the cost of the wood alone, is more than the purchased price of a ready-to-assemble bought box.


Yeah for me it's only a 2-3 dollar difference over volume pricing built boxes (for a deep)..... My biggest issues are the local wood isn't very nice. Most is warped or cracked. The budget boxes I bought from Kelley look perfect compared to the terrible wood I get here.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

snl said:


> Because in many cases, the cost of the wood alone, is more than the purchased price of a ready-to-assemble bought box.


Not if you source it thru different venues. Lowes and the local hardware store are not the place to get good lumber or good prices


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## snl

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Not if you source it thru different venues. Lowes and the local hardware store are not the place to get good lumber or good prices


Let's suppose you can buy the wood for $3 less than the cost of ready to assemble box, is it worth your time to build it? For me, no.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

Notice my original post on if you had time. Also 3 bucks less isn't worth it to me either.


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## Swampsquash

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Not if you source it thru different venues. Lowes and the local hardware store are not the place to get good lumber or good prices


I have found 84 lumber has the best price... But their 1x12's are absolutely horrible.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

Yes most of them are. It can be a pain to source good 1x12s in bulk. My equipment is not as perfect as Kelley's or dadants but is is less than half the price and works just as good. Bees don't care.


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## grozzie2

beepro said:


> Some can afford it so they rather buy than risking a finger or 2.





Hiwire said:


> Its also just possible that some people can make more money at other things that more than pay for the difference in price.


Those two quotes sum up my thoughts on the subject to a tee. I dont regularily work with saws, so I'm probably a danger to myself trying to do it on any scale. I dont have the tools in the shop to make this kind of stuff, and to be honest, I dont want them. I'm far better off to sit down in my office, and work on a client billable project for an afternoon, then phone up the young couple down the road who build this stuff, and just order finished boxes, assembled, painted, ready to go on a hive. I get to keep my fingers, and they could sure use a few extra bucks.

Over the next couple of years, I'm going to need around a hundred boxes. One finger to me, is worth far more than the entire cost for a hundred boxes, including the frames.


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## Riverderwent

I enjoy designing and building simple, solid, unpainted woodenware with culled cedar lumber. We build our own hives, swarm traps, mating nucs, trapout boxes, and bee vacs. That handmade equipment is not for sale. We sell our bees in eight frame medium nucs that we make using discarded plywood. Our customers can keep those if they want or return them for a nominal payment. Cleo Hogan for President. Different people enjoy doing different things and prioritize their time and resources accordingly. As a hobby, beekeeping is cheaper than golf; as a job, it's more fun than digging a ditch.


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## Acebird

Riverderwent said:


> Cleo Hogan for President.


Nah, I want a dictator. You can burn down the rest of Washington.


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## Michael Bush

My theory is that I buy things I can to save me time. I build things I can't buy because it's the only way to get them. It is not cheaper for me to buy lumber and build boxes. It's cheaper (even not counting my time) to buy the boxes already cut.


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## Swampsquash

SugarbeatCo said:


> View attachment 15383
> I make mine, I use the incra ibox jig, I made one of hogans handhold jigs, life is good.. Frames are easy to if you have a dado stack a bandsaw and a router table..


Yeah the ibox looks awesome....my box joints don't come out that clean. hmmmmm


----------



## shinbone

Michael Bush said:


> My theory is that I buy things I can to save me time. I build things I can't buy because it's the only way to get them. It is not cheaper for me to buy lumber and build boxes. It's cheaper (even not counting my time) to buy the boxes already cut.


Describes my position, too.

Some like to do the wood work, but when someone gets excited because they saved $1.50 per box by making them from scratch, I think to myself "there is someone who's time has no value." I know that is just my own perspective, and I hope to have that much free time on my hands someday.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

I guess for most it is that way. However I pay myself good money to build my equipment. Plus I have made adjustments to allow me to split colonies better in all my hives. I have spent thousands of hours using saws. I still can play my mandolin


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

I build my own. I wait until Menard's puts their lumber on sale and buy a few loads. I think I paid under $12 for 1x12x12's on a recent trip which will make 2 deep boxes and 2 feeder rims. At $6 a box that's hard to beat. 

I just was quoted a price of $9.25 for 50 budget deeps, shipping was $374.75. Came to a total of $837.25. 

Mann Lake is $11.80 plus free shipping for a total of $590 for 50 deeps.

My price is spend a day in the shop, burn some firewood, make some saw dust. $6 a box $300 for 50 deeps. Saves around $290 for a 1/2 days work. If you factor in time and equipment, it might be cheaper to buy already cut. Depends on what you have more of time or money. I usually dedicate the winter months to cutting and assembling equipment.


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## Acebird

I am surprised there is not a beekeeper growing their own trees and cutting up the lumber. Are there any big operations that are not migratory where they would have to find work in the winter season?


----------



## bentonbee

Here is a video on some Modified Dadant bee boxes I made. I used basswood. Basswood is n ot great. You need to keep them painted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g5IGoogHi4

I make most of my own hives. Most of the frames I buy. I can make my equipment cheaper than buying it. My time if free, and I have the tools.
It does take a bunch of time. I have even made my own Alexander bee feeders. You can't buy those anywhere that I know of. I really like those feeders.
Mike in Iowa


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm

I build all my own. For me that's half the fun of keeping bees. I would still build even if it wasn't cheaper than buying.

JMO


Rusty


----------



## Terry C

Acebird said:


> I am surprised there is not a beekeeper growing their own trees and cutting up the lumber. Are there any big operations that are not migratory where they would have to find work in the winter season?


 I have 12,000 trees <est for 12 acres> and plans to build a band saw mill to make my own lumber ... not just for hives , we're building a house and I want to use native materials . There's a reason they call it Stone County ...


----------



## Acebird

Terry C said:


> I have 12,000 trees


hard wood or soft wood?


----------



## Huntingstoneboy

I pay $.80 a board foot for white pine rough cut here...If my math is correct that is $5.60 a box. Pretty hard to justify buying pre-cut boxes, and like many others have said, building your own is half the fun!


----------



## NeilV

Terry C said:


> There's a reason they call it Stone County ...


Because of all the wood?


----------



## rmaxwell

Acebird said:


> I am surprised there is not a beekeeper growing their own trees and cutting up the lumber. Are there any big operations that are not migratory where they would have to find work in the winter season?


I have 34 boxes ready to assemble in my shop from a tree I cut on my property. A storm took the top of the tree out a couple years ago. It was an 18 inch diameter southern yellow pine. Instead of paying someone $1,000 to remove the tree, a portion of it will now be hive bodies for myself and another local beekeeper or two. The rest will go toward other woodworking projects. I had it milled, air dried it in my side yard and sent it to a local kiln to finish it off. 

To me, there's value in woodworking therapy and seeing something I took from a tree to a finished project. Everyone values things differently and I don't think it's always a simple matter of time equals money or this cost vs. that. In my case, I couldn't buy the pre-fabricated parts as cheaply, woodworking is a hobby for me just like beekeeping, and I've gotten to know other beekeepers a little better. Maybe, I've even been able to help them some along the way. To me, that's what I value most.


----------



## Terry C

Quote Originally Posted by Terry C 
I have 12,000 trees



Acebird said:


> hard wood or soft wood?


 Mostly white and red oaks , a few hickory , maple , and cedar mixed in . If I mill it myself I can quarter-saw most of it , most mills just slab it all .


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> I build all my own. For me that's half the fun of keeping bees. I would still build even if it wasn't cheaper than buying.
> 
> JMO
> 
> 
> Rusty


Yup same here. Building equipment to me is as much apart of beekeeping as the bees themselves.


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds

Huntingstoneboy said:


> I pay $.80 a board foot for white pine rough cut here...If my math is correct that is $5.60 a box. Pretty hard to justify buying pre-cut boxes, and like many others have said, building your own is half the fun!


Plus slow grown timber is tougher than commercial pine and spruce it should last longer.


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## Ted n Ms

I bought cypress for 60.00 dollars a ton and had it sawed with a band saw mill for .27 a board ft. I can make hive bodies for about 3.50


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## beepro

Need to watch out for those exposed nails to the elements.
Might rust if not waterproof them first. Maybe a dab with TB and then
paint them over.


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds

Nice.


----------



## Terry C

Quote Originally Posted by Terry C 
There's a reason they call it Stone County ...



NeilV said:


> Because of all the wood?


 A reference to natural materials , the only thing we have more of than trees is rocks . Bottom half of the house will be native stone , white oak split shakes above . The hive bodies I'm working on now are from re-purposed cabinet doors and closet shelving . So far I've spent - for a total of 5 deeps and 8 medium supers plus 2 stands , bottom boards , and tops - about 40 bucks , most of which went for aluminum flashing for tops and #8 hardware cloth for bottoms . Frames and foundation are another couple hundred , but I feel confident I have enough equipment to handle this summer . Plan is to split in early/mid April , then start another split with a purchased queen in May . Next year we can start taking honey , this year it'll probably all go back into the hives .


----------



## beepro

Terry C, is the screen bottom board using the #8 hardware cloth allows the mites
to fall thru? I'm reluctant to use it thinking that the mites might not fall through the
small holes. What is your experience so far with the #8 hw cloth?


----------



## 78-79fordman

beepro said:


> Terry C, is the screen bottom board using the #8 hardware cloth allows the mites
> to fall thru? I'm reluctant to use it thinking that the mites might not fall through the
> small holes. What is your experience so far with the #8 hw cloth?


#8 is standard size . Mites and bettles fall thru


----------



## frustrateddrone

Newb here....... From Central Texas (USA). Here is the experience and mindset that I have had. I don't even have bees and that's the sad thing. Yes, I do have a package of bees coming mid March from Georgia. So I have spent something like $625 so far on this endeavor. I have 1 bee hive and that's it. I thought I would just build my boxes myself and save $10 bucks. 
I go out and buy lumber at Lowes for 2 supers and 1 Medium. Wonderful huh......? I go watch how to do box jointing. I have a wonderful shop with 2 routers, table saw etc etc. I do plastic fabrication and don't know much about woodworking to do box jointing. I go to YouTube and look at a dozen or so box jointing videos. I found a dovetail router bit in my box of router bits; thought wow, that would be cool and proceeded to do some practice cuts with the dovetail. I found out you need a special jig for that because the upright cut and the 90 degree cut have to be done at the same time. No way to do it with the stuff I have that I know of and remember I am not a woodworker. So I go get my neighbor that does build houses. He says yah, dovetail you need this $100+ jig. Guess that's why people only do box joinery bee hives. 
I don't have a router bit for that. Amazon has 1 for $16 bucks and it's 1-1/8". I go buy it and my numbers for savings are now shot. Again I am new to this jointery stuff. I go and start cutting some pine for my finger joint jig and try and make it work. After burning through some lumber, I get it just about right. Good enough for me, but not quite marketable quality. So I make some adjustments for the on the Mediums. Bam. I have my cut lumber and cut the joints. Come to find out I am 1 board short because apparently I chewed through too much lumber. Sigh....... So I go out and buy lumber a few days later to get that 1 board I need. Come to find out I bought the wrong pine board. I thought it was 12", but it's shorter. I guess I will save it for making mediums. I have enough for a bee hive and when I get ready for more supers I will go make them. 
Sure it's easy to make them, but the learning curve was steep. Did I save money? Heck no! I could have bought 3 supers and 2 mediums not assembled. I wondered how these companies do it. I price shop lumber and found a company about $4.00 cheaper then what I could bought at Lowes. 
I need deck screws, Phillips #2 driver bits, galvanized double dipped nails, glue, paint brush, sandpaper, handles and whatever else. Total comes to $40 bucks roughly. This isn't including paint of coarse. 
I'm in uncharted territory that I have now walked down a path partially. I am glad I did make my own by my own hands. Just gives it that special meaning and effort I suppose. Like anything, I didn't know the path would be long to obtain a total bill of $625 for a hive of bees. I do have the knowledge and experience to build my own. If I ever need a Nuc, medium or Super I can build it. It's been fun and my bees hopefully will prosper in the way I want them to with a supreme queen. 
I am not doing it to sell honey and make my money back. I am doing it for the love of it and experience. I went to a central Tx Frame building party 2 hours away. Built wired frames for 3 hours. Met a handful of nice folks who many are in the same boat I am in. The wonderful thing is I actually got to talk to a live person about a lot of concerns and got 1st hand knowledge. Apparently geography has a lot to do with what I have been seeing. South has some percentage of Africanized bees and North doesn't meaning bees in the south are more aggressive. SO don't think I will bee trying to handle bees with bare hands in 6 months time.


----------



## Acebird

frustrateddrone said:


> Guess that's why people only do box joinery bee hives.


Not really. A box joint (finger) is stronger in soft wood than a dove tail. Don't waste your time making dove tail joints for bee hives.


----------



## Vince

I have made my own in the past from a shipping crate. The labor was 4x what it takes to put together a precut box. I have also made my own frames from scrap wood. They looked just like a commercially available frame. It took about 4 hours to make 40 frames. Since I still work full time, I can work overtime and make enough to pay for lots of boxes. My time is more valuable than the cost savings from making my own boxes. Here in San Jose, CA, I can't even buy wood cheaper than I can buy an entire precut box. I make my own hive tops, stands and bottom boards because I cannot find anything commercially that I like.

Vince


----------



## PAHunter62

I was in my local Home Depot this evening. They had a "new" item marked in their pine board section.

1x8x8 Fir/Spruce Utility Boards for $3.48 each

They are rough cut on one side. They did have some minor cupping. Had to dig through the pile to find good ones. Many were splitting a little on one of the ends.

I picked up 6 of them for $22.13

I'm planning on building slatted racks, cloake boards, etc. Ripping them down for these items will all but eliminate any issues due to the cupping.

I'll post back how much equipment I was able to build using these boards.


----------



## rmaxwell

Getting close to finishing this little project thanks to help from a couple local beeks.


----------



## snl

rmaxwell......

A very nice "little project" they look great!


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## beekuk

...


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## beepro

rmaxwell, the single hive box that sit on the front in the pic, is it a deep box that holds
the 9 5/8" frames?

Also how come the boxes are sitting on the 2 slats? Is it for a cleaner box ready for painting or dipping?


----------



## kingd

PAHunter62 said:


> I was in my local Home Depot this evening. They had a "new" item marked in their pine board section.
> 
> 1x8x8 Pine Utility Boards for $3.48 each
> 
> They are rough cut on one side. They did have some minor cupping. Had to dig through the pile to find good ones. Many were splitting a little on one of the ends.
> 
> I picked up 6 of them for $22.13
> 
> I'm planning on building slatted racks, cloake boards, etc. Ripping them down for these items will all but eliminate any issues due to the cupping.
> 
> I'll post back how much equipment I was able to build using these boards.


 I was at home depot yesterday and bought 4 1x12x8 for $12 in the discount rack,reason for being in there was because of water stains.
No cupping or splits (which is unusual).
I do like the depot for discount wood,generally 70% off too!


----------



## Acebird

PAHunter62 said:


> 1x8x8 Pine Utility Boards for $3.48 each


Are you sure it is pine and not spruce?


----------



## thehackleguy

I had to stop building the other day and look to see what I had. First had three 8 frame hives, then realized I had an extra top. So I built another one and made an order, then realized that I ordered one more bottom than I needed.....not I need another top! I usually buy about $20.00 worth of boards every two weeks, a little at a time and the wife don't notice as much 

Here is what I've been doing:


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## rookie2531

Frustrateddrone, sounds like a small learning curve you are going through. Sucks not to have some experience help I know. Try rabbit joint or even butt joint. I use butt joint because it is quick, easy and saves 1.5" of length on two sides, every box. Rabbit will save you a little less. Some will argue reliability, but I don't see them falling apart as I won't be throwing them around like maybe commercial guys.


----------



## Oh_Beehave

Swampsquash said:


> Wish I could master the box joints.....I have done some with splines that worked out ok for nucs.


Box joints are actually incredibly simple (once you make a jig). Here's a quick tutorial on how to make the jig: http://woodworking.about.com/od/woodworkingplansdesigns/ss/BoxJointJig_1.htm#step-heading


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## PAHunter62

Acebird said:


> Are you sure it is pine and not spruce?


You are correct, it is listed as 100% fir and spruce wood, not pine. I'm not planning on making hive bodies out of it, just some slatted racks and cloake boards. I'll prime and paint it, so it should still last pretty well. We'll see, could be a mistake ...


----------



## bergmansupplies

I have new boxes for sale check me out in the for sale section...Bergman Supplies
Have a good day


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## minz

I am not really building against any goal, just out there building. I am now messing around with a piece of acrylic and making my ‘brand’ that is really a router template of two nested ‘M’s. it turned out ok but nothing fancy. 
Frustrated drone, you have now developed furniture quality wood working skills using the least expensive lumber that you will ever use! I find that the price per pound I paid for green hemlock was about the same I would have paid for firewood. Yeah I had to dry it and plane it but I have to do something other than watch the wife watch TV. 
BTW I found my box jig plans the other day and they were ‘Beesource You build it’ I went to send the link and can not find it. Anybody know if it was taken down or can I scan a copy and have them put back up?


----------



## Acebird

minz said:


> I have to do something other than watch the wife watch TV.


Seriously? Thank you God for a wonderful wife.


----------



## rwurster

:waiting:


Acebird said:


> Seriously? Thank you God for a wonderful wife.


Seriously, how many of your 10.5k posts haven't been put up to derail a thread or give bad advice?


----------



## Acebird

I don't keep count. I have a bunch of other people that do that for me so ask them.


As far as advice goes I state my opinions. Some agree and some don't. I guess I fit right in with the bee community.


----------



## TheCompound

burns375 said:


> I make deeps for about $3.50. I like making deeps, its pretty easy if you have the tools..... *i don't like painting*.


+1 
I build pretty much everything but frames. The only part of the process I don't like is _painting_. But I'd be doing that, regardless.


----------



## rmaxwell

Acebird said:


> Not really. A box joint (finger) is stronger in soft wood than a dove tail. Don't waste your time making dove tail joints for bee hives.


Absolutely!


----------



## rmaxwell

beepro said:


> rmaxwell, the single hive box that sit on the front in the pic, is it a deep box that holds
> the 9 5/8" frames?
> 
> Also how come the boxes are sitting on the 2 slats? Is it for a cleaner box ready for painting or dipping?


Took me a while to get back to this post. The box in front is a deep divided box for running two small colonies. I can stack four frame nucs on top. I added 3/4 inch to the depth of the deep in case I get swarm cells and want to drop them into this box to simulate a swarm. There's a center divider so I can put frames with swarm cells in each side. The bottom board has an entrance in front for one side and an entrance in back for the other. 

I stacked them on slats so they don't pick up moisture before I stain. Not needed but I tend to be extra careful. Thanks.


----------



## Randy Andy

Where do you buy wood for .40$ a foot? I would think you would need a tractor trailer load to get that price. I really want to build my hive bodies, but it's cost prohibitive. Please let me know where to get wood for that price. I don't mind buying a 1000 ft


----------



## minz

I got mine off craigs list from a guy with a portable mill. I went for fir and he made me a deal on the hemlock at $400/1000 BF. I do have to say that I really hate planning the wood. I do it in big batches and run it all day. I only take it down to 7/8” because I hate the repetitive, noisy mundane task and cannot reason taking off an extra 1/8” of perfect wood. I thought I had a real find but when I used him a second time to cut up a few maple trees he gouged me for getting them out.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

In South Central Kentucky (Mammoth Cave Area), local mills sell pine for 50 cents a board foot, no minimum board feet. Poplar is 48 cents a board foot. Cypress is 50 cents a board foot, (but is not the greatest cypress.) Boards are random cut, 8 ft. long to 16 ft long. I can buy 6 inch, 8 inch, 12 wide. Boards are cut a full 1 inch thick. Boards really need to be strip stacked for 9 months to 1 year before using. I try to let mine set for 2 years by buying each year, and using what has been curing for 2 years. 

I cut my boards to length, cut the box joints, cut the rabbet, then plane to 3/4, then cut hand holds.

cchoganjr


----------



## Acebird

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I cut my boards to length, cut the box joints, cut the rabbet, then plane to 3/4, then cut hand holds.
> 
> cchoganjr


I was thinking the same thing only forget the planing or just plane one side if you wanted a smooth exterior to paint.


----------



## minz

‘I cut my boards to length, cut the box joints, cut the rabbet, then plane to 3/4, then cut hand holds.’
My plainer leaves snipe on the ends of the boards and since I am using Hemlock if I ran them through the planer after cutting the box joints I would lose half a finger joint on every other board. It would also make for boxes that were not square where the snipe was on the inside of the joints, mine are bad enough already! I would also not have a bunch of wood laying around for other projects.
‘I was thinking the same thing only forget the planing or just plane one side if you wanted a smooth exterior to paint.’
I know they are just for bugs but I like a nice finished box joint. This would look like every single finger had chipped out. It would create runs where the paint roller would leave extra paint to run down the hive body. I would have additional air gaps for weather infiltration.


----------



## Barry

minz said:


> My plainer leaves snipe on the ends of the boards and since I am using Hemlock if I ran them through the planer after cutting the box joints I would lose half a finger joint on every other board.


That's easy to solve. Adjust the rollers on your planer. If you don't want to do that, simply run a short piece of wood (12") right behind the first board that is the same thickness. You've just moved your snipe from the good piece to the scrap piece.


----------



## Dan the bee guy

The only thing I have not made is the foundation. If you have the tools it's easy.


----------



## Randy Andy

It's cheaper to buy the boxes unless your getting the wood for free! It cost me 8$ a deep and 5$ for a medium unassembled from a fellow beekeeper that makes the hives. Frames are 60$ per 100


----------



## Acebird

If they are finger jointed first why can't he just run one board after the other with the fingers engaged?


----------



## Ravenseye

I make all my own now. I enter save money but I sure do like the activity. My shop has heat but it's expensive. So, I cut all the wood in the summer and leave it to rest. Come winter, I move all the pieces to a small basement area that stays warm. She I have the time, I assemble the boxes and sand them. Then I set up a couple of saw horses with a long closet pole between them. I hang the boxes on the pole and prime / paint them with a roller. I can do 8 boxes at once and do all four sides by turning them as I go. I use the same method to touch up older boxes that I've rotated out at the end of the year. I kind of love the off season work mainly because it keeps my fingers in beekeeping and I don't get stuck doing it in the spring when a zillion other things become a priority as well.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> I was thinking the same thing only forget the planing or just plane one side if you wanted a smooth exterior to paint.


Planing only one side of rough cut lumber is not going to work very well. 

Making decent box joints (or even rabbet joints) is a lot harder if the wood is not relatively uniform. If the joints in the hive body are poorly made (as a result of varying thickness wood) there is little point in worrying about a smooth surface for paint.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Radar... I don't understand how it is harder to make good box joints if the wood is not relatively uniform.

I clamp the two end boards together then run the box joints. Wood thickness does not matter. Then I clamp the two side pieces and cut the box joints.

I did misspeak in my post above. The rabbet has to be made after the wood is planed to final thickness. Otherwise the rabbet will not be uniform.

I can run 1 inch rough saw boards mixed with 3/4 SBS (surfaced both sides), and it would not matter in making the box joints. 

One additional consideration. By using full 1 inch rough sawed boards and planing after all cuts are made, (except rabbet), the planing will take out any blowout you may have from the box joints, and will also take out a considerable amount of bowing you might have in the board.

I might also recommend a Delta 22-560 planer as you rarely ever get any snipe with it. The infeed and outfeed tables are large and you rarely get any snipe. You can pick up a really good used Delta 22-560 on Craigs list for $150.00 or less. Change blades often, keep them sharp. (about $29.00 for a set of two).

If I could buy boxes cheaper than I can make them, then I surely would. But, the availability of rough saw, and at a good price, makes it better for me to make, than to buy. Make boxes, (tops, bottom boards, inner covers,) in the Winter, paint in early Spring, put bees in them in Spring and sell the completed unit. That is how I do it. May not be the best option for everyone, but, works for me.

cchoganjr


----------



## Barry

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Radar... I don't understand how it is harder to make good box joints if the wood is not relatively uniform.
> 
> I clamp the two end boards together then run the box joints. Wood thickness does not matter.


I don't know about _harder to make_, but using two different thicknesses would leave some pins either longer or shorter, leaving an uneven outer corner.


----------



## Acebird

Cleo, do you make a lot of these boxes?
Personally I would through out the planer. It doesn't really take the bow out of the wood. What you need is a 12 in joiner. Join one side (inside) put your rabit in and finger joints. Glue the boxes together with clamping jig. Next day you joint the other side (outside) until smooth. You will end up with a slight varying thickness walls but that doesn't matter. Inside dimensions will be perfect and all the finger will be flush with the outside surface of the boards. A final step would be shooting staples / nails in the finger joints.

If you want perfectly flat boxes so they stack together with no space at all invest in a table sander. Sand the top edge and then set up a router to a fixed height to mill the bottom edge at perfect height. Instead of the router being in the table it is mounted above the table and you pass the work under it. Of course the boards have to be a little wider so you have some stock to take off. It also could be done with table saw. The router will do the best job though.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Barry... Explain how some pins would be longer or shorter...... 

The depth of the finger or valley has nothing to do with the thickness of the wood. Fingers and valleys will all be the same, regardless of thickness at the beginning, as long as the final product (after planing) is all the same thickness. In this case 3/4 inch. Which is what I do. Regardless of the thickness at the beginning, when you plane to 3/4 inch, all fingers and all valleys will be 3/4 inch.

For instance, if you cut one end of the box from 1 inch rough cut, then cut one end using 3/4 (sbs) when the two are planed to 3/4, (one won't require planing), all fingers and all valleys will be the same, i..e.. 3/4 inch. and the outer corner will all be flush, (or you can make them slightly proud, if you wish to sand.

cchoganjr


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## Barry

Oh, I get it, you're right. Yes, if you still plane everything to the same thickness, no issue. I was thinking you were joining/assembling boards of various thickness. My bad.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Acebird said:


> Cleo, do you make a lot of these boxes?
> 
> If you want perfectly flat boxes so they stack together with no space at all invest in a table sander. Sand the top edge and then set .



I make 600 to 1000 each year. Tops, bottom boards, inner covers, deeps, and shallows. I do not make frames.

And yes, a planer will take a slight bow out of a 9 7/8 inch board by removing the high side on one side (which will be in the middle) and the outer edges of the opposite side. That is the beauty of using a full cut 1 inch wood. You can eliminate any box joint blowout, and slight bowing of the wood,

And, yes,..I absolutely, absolutely, want perfectly flat boxes so they stack without any cracks between the two boxes. 

If your cuts are straight, plane to 3/4, and your box joints are all perfect,(and they will be after you set up your sled), then your boxes will stack with no cracks between them, no sanding required. I would not sell boxes if they did not stack level or had cracks between boxes..

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Barry said:


> My bad.


Barry... I thought it was just miscommunication of the process.

My bad too.

cchoganjr


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## Rader Sidetrack

Perhaps I should have _italicized_ the word "decent" in my earlier post ... 



> Making _decent_ box joints (or even rabbet joints) is a lot harder ...



de·cent ˈdēs(ə)nt/

2. of an acceptable standard; satisfactory.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Perhaps I should have _italicized_ the word "decent" in my earlier post ...


Rader.. I think we have the same miscommunication that Barry and I had. You are talking about making joints in different thickness of woods and leaving them at that thickness.

I was talking about making your cuts in any thickness of wood, and then plane all to 3/4. The joints will not only be _decent, _they will be perfect.

Thanks Rader

cchoganjr


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## minz

Here is what I ended up with, I can not figure out how to get the bees in it (Stickly 20” with through tennons made from the inlaws walnut tree). I find it easier to cut the 3” of scrap off of a 10’ board than to push a scrap piece through the DW735 planer on a couple of dozen boards.
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/IMG_0806_zpst1zxu4px.jpg


----------



## lharder

Lauri said:


> I buy unassembled hive bodies-on sale-in bulk. For now.
> 
> If I had to fabricate them from scratch & only needed a few hives, I'd probably actually consider 1 1/2" material. It's not only cheaper than 3/4" material, it is more plentyful in scrap form and a makes a really great hive. Well insulated naturally with breathable natural materials.
> 
> I'm making my hive bodies using cull 2 by 8's. I can use warped ones with a little use of a power and hand planer depending on how bad the warp is. Usually takes less than 5 minutes to get a box to sit flat. Just butt joints, deck screws and glue for now. Think the bees will really appreciate the extra thickness of wood.


----------



## Phoebee

I buy unassembled and knock them together. It gives me an excuse to buy toys like air nailers and better staple guns.

If I had a cheap source of pine boards I might be tempted to go for even better toys. I would like to build my own top feeders and Freeman beetle trap bottom boards, as I find myself modifying the ones I've bought from our local supplier.

Boxes that don't go together quite flat bug me, too.


----------



## the bearded bee

What? people actually waste good money for wood to build beehives? really? lol
I am a wood scrapper, I make my own hives and frames out of free wood. cheapest way to do it.


----------



## SteveStevenson

Swamp, I make my boxes using butt joints, yellow wood glue and screws using a Kreg jig. These joints are stronger than the wood itself. They will NOT break. If u aren't familiar with the Kreg jig look on YouTube to see how they work. Try it it's quick & easy!


----------



## AAIndigo

I just pumped a bunch of boxes and some 4 frame Michael Palmer type production hives with a locking miter joint. I have his set on my shaper and just role it out when I'm ready to make more. 

No worries about warped/cupped wood. Just clamp, glue and nail and it holds strong. Photos on my other computer but can post if your interested. 

You can use a router table as well.

Joint is strong as hell.


----------



## Mosherd1

AAIndigo said:


> I just pumped a bunch of boxes and some 4 frame Michael Palmer type production hives with a locking miter joint. I have his set on my shaper and just role it out when I'm ready to make more.
> 
> No worries about warped/cupped wood. Just clamp, glue and nail and it holds strong. Photos on my other computer but can post if your interested.
> 
> You can use a router table as well.
> 
> Joint is strong as hell.


I am interested in seeing some pics if you have them. I am starting this weekend making the 4 frame deep supers too. Thanks,
-Dave


----------



## GarfieldBeek

I'm an old shop teacher, in our woodworking classes at the college level we were always taught that a planer does not remove a bow from a wide board. That is the job of a joiner. The reason is the high pressure of the infeed rolls flatten the board just before it hits the knives. it is then planed while under pressure. After it passes the knives the pressure of the rollers is gone and the stresses built into the wood return the bow to the board. Running across a joiner there is no pressure flattening the board so the convex or concave surface is flattened.


----------



## AAIndigo

Not sure if this will work but here she goes. These were taken when I cut the frame shelf with a router (I forgot to dado) My second batch was done with a dado blade. Im in Ma and can run these with you if you like. Swing by this weekend (Sunday is best). Just cut your stock to length, dont rip the width, we can dado as well if you like. You can assemble at home. I may have a locking miter router bit you can have as well.


----------



## Acebird

AAIndigo said:


> I may have a locking miter router bit you can have as well.
> View attachment 22074
> View attachment 22075
> View attachment 22073


Now that is a thing of beauty.:thumbsup:

So if you wanted to make a jig you could route the ledge in perfectly such that the bow or the thickness of the wall would not matter. The wall that has the ledge for the frames could be 7/8 and the other sides 3/4. Another thing I like to do is take a belt sander and touch all four corners so when the boxes are put together you have a very small V to start your hive tool for prying boxes apart.:thumbsup:


----------



## minz

That is a nice joint. I really have to watch the depth of my dato set because it changes the entire dimension of the box. I had some shallow cuts that I actually had to glue a piece of plywood into the front and rear to get the dimensions right. I do have to admit that I am in the bee box making mode I like to make the furniture side of me go and do some mindless wood butchering (thus the plywood). 
I think I have hit the correct size for my apiary but I am addicted to building.


----------



## AAIndigo

>I think I have hit the correct size for my apiary but I am addicted to building<

I know what you mean. I like doubled up on all I need for my planned 2016 growth - just in case


----------



## gww

minz


> I think I have hit the correct size for my apiary but I am addicted to building.


I built most of a nuc today. Built two long langs and seven regular medium lang, tops bottoms, about 200 frames and some traps a year and a half ago. I built a saw mill to get more boards. I will finish the nuc tomorrow and build one deep hive body. I will then build some more traps that can be cut down later to use as mediums. I still don't have bees yet:gh:. I am working on it and should have enough equiptment to keep up with any potential bees I might get, expesially at the pace I am getting them.
Cheers
gww

Ps Responding to the addiction to building not the size of my apiary, ha ha.


----------



## minz

GWW post a pic of that mill! I have had 5 logs milled to date and the last 3 I think I got burned. I have about 1100 BF of maple stickered, 500 BF of hemlock, and maybe 300 BF of walnut. 
Here is what I finished the last week
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/flag front_zpsbaczwwqb.jpg
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/Otto 2_zpsu4h8id99.jpg
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/Otto and chair S_zpsyjjqyk7r.jpg
debating going back to bee gear or a couple of end tables.


----------



## Randy Andy

Acebird said:


> Cleo, do you make a lot of these boxes?
> Personally I would through out the planer. It doesn't really take the bow out of the wood. What you need is a 12 in joiner. Join one side (inside) put your rabit in and finger joints. Glue the boxes together with clamping jig. Next day you joint the other side (outside) until smooth. You will end up with a slight varying thickness walls but that doesn't matter. Inside dimensions will be perfect and all the finger will be flush with the outside surface of the boards. A final step would be shooting staples / nails in the finger joints.
> 
> If you want perfectly flat boxes so they stack together with no space at all invest in a table sander. Sand the top edge and then set up a router to a fixed height to mill the bottom edge at perfect height. Instead of the router being in the table it is mounted above the table and you pass the work under it. Of course the boards have to be a little wider so you have some stock to take off. It also could be done with table saw. The router will do the best job though.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> Don't throw out the planer you are crazy (ace bird)! The jointer will flatten the boards, but you will end up with a cattywompus box if you join both sides on the jointer! Welcome to shop 101 join one side to take out the cup then putting the join side down on the planet you will get a flat board every time! Then join one edge square and rip to width! I'm sorry if have more pride than using the jointer in the wrong way. The jointer is made for flattening and squaring not thickness planing.


----------



## gww

minz


> GWW post a pic of that mill!


So you need a laugh huh. Also how I sticker my wood.











lauri
nice stuff
Cheers
gww


----------



## Acebird

Randy Andy said:


> The jointer is made for flattening and squaring not thickness planing.


Randy, this has all been explained. The outside surface of a bee box is of little importance. The thinkness of the boards is of little importance. One surface joined and the two edges square is all that is necessary. The rest is cosmetic.


----------



## Randy Andy

Why would you tell someone to throw out a surface planer? Thickness is important if you want the boxes square, that line up when stacked and it's the proper way to woodwork. I could see skating by if you don't have a surface planer, but why would you join both sides if you could surface it to an exact thickness faster?


----------



## Randy Andy

gww said:


> minz
> 
> 
> So you need a laugh huh. Also how I sticker my wood.
> 
> Did you build that mill? It's pretty cool. I would love to be able to cut my own wood


----------



## Acebird

Randy Andy said:


> but why would you join both sides if you could surface it to an exact thickness faster?


You are missing the whole point Randy. You need the jointer to make things flat and square you do not need the planer. It might be before your time but a skilled carpenter can make things flat, square, and the same thickness with just a block plane. There is nothing wrong with owning a surface planer after you bought the jointer.


----------



## minz

gww said:


> minz
> 
> 
> So you need a laugh huh. Also how I sticker my wood.
> 
> 
> when you talk about the wheels on the bandsaw, you mean wheels on the bandsaw! can you zoom on the head end of that beast?


----------



## D Coates

Lauri said:


> I just bought a new knife and need to make a custom sheath.


VERY cool Damascus steel blade in that knife Lauri. I've got one from this guy with a feather pattern (not shown). http://www.duncanmadeknives.com/gallery.html I've harvested more whitetails (and few elk) with it than I care to admit. He laments that his knifes rarely get used because of their cost and beauty. I assured him this would not be the case.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Acebird said:


> You are missing the whole point Randy. You need the jointer to make things flat and square .


I must be missing the point too. 

Over the past several years, I have made several thousand, deep boxes, shallow boxes, tops, inner covers, and bottom boards. I have a 4 inch jointer, but, it has never been used in any of these operations. I have 3, DELTA 22-560 planers. Would not work with rough saw lumber without them. I use pine, poplar, and cypress, saw mill, full inch and inch and a quarter, wood. It is strip stacked for 1 year to 2 years then used. I have posted photos on this forum of the stacks of lumber in my barn. My boxes are flat and square and a jointer is not used. I also do not use a router for any operations in the production of bee equipment.

I would suggest everyone use what works for them.

cchoganjr


----------



## Ravenseye

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I would suggest everyone use what works for them.
> 
> cchoganjr


My sentiments exactly. Over the years I've acquired or rid myself of tools and the way I do wood work today is not the same as I did it a few years ago. There are lots of ways to build.


----------



## minz

I have no idea why you would use a jointer. You use a jointer to make two edges perfectly flat to glue them together so maybe if you wanted to cut short boards, run them through the jointer and then edge joint them together?
I have used a router when I messed up frame rests and need to fix it but it is not a standard tool.
As Cleo has said you could make boxes with a few hand tools and a LOT of sweat and probably do a better job than I do. Whatever works. You can get a Craigs list table saw cheaper than you can get a decent hand plane.


----------



## AAIndigo

Acebird said:


> You are missing the whole point Randy. You need the jointer to make things flat and square you do not need the planer. It might be before your time but a skilled carpenter can make things flat, square, and the same thickness with just a block plane. There is nothing wrong with owning a surface planer after you bought the jointer.


Complete Bull.

I have made countless boxes with just my table saw, shaper (for my locking miter joint) and staple gun. I'm making bee boxes not furniture. Yes a router is handy when I forget to dado the frame rest but but a jointer never crosses my mind.

box and finger joints dont even need require a jointer.

A block plane is used for breaking edges only.

A good table saw is needed though.


----------



## gww

Minz and randy
Not trying to steal this thread but here goes. I built it with junk.
Close up of head?









I know a bad picture. I got alot of help getting it to work after I put it together here.


http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,82695.0.html

Back to the threads. I don't have bees yet. I come here for bee help. I don't have a planer except a hand plainer that if a board is really bowed, I will try to flatten it a bid. If bowed but I can make it gapless I just use the boards. I don't worry about thickness. I just worry about the hives inside measurements. I cut them down to size after they are built and most sit well on each other doing it this way. I am a terrible carpenter and am hoping the bees won't mind. I bought a plainer on a yard sale and it quit on the first board. I just on thanksgiving used my uncles planer on some cedar for a cedar chest and I loved it. I bought a six inch jointer at the same yard sale and it helps my samill edges but is not wide enough for board sides for medium hive bodys. I mostly have a table saw and rough boards and work with that. So, no mass prodution here. It would take me a long long time to do 100 hive bodies. I guess the descussion on what to use and how to use it depends on how many hive you intend to do. I just keep pegging away and get done "what I get done" as I do it.

Examples









Its all good
gww


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## Barry

People are talking past each other. Amazing anything makes sense. Thinking back to my training days in woodworking, a jointer was the first step in finishing a rough sawn board. Once the "high" spots were removed on one side, it was then run through a surface planer. Then one edge was finished on the jointer and ripped to size one the table saw. It's not the only way, but the way I was taught 35 years ago.


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## Randy Andy

I was taught the same way Barry!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

AAIndigo said:


> Complete Bull. A good table saw is needed though.


AAIndigo.. My thoughts exactly. Actually you need at least 2 good table saws for making boxes. HA!!! 

One for ripping to width, the other to leave set up with the dado for the box joints. If you plan to make a lot of boxes, over an extended period of time, the second table saw left set up with the dado is sure handy. 5 more table saws also come in handy.

Odfrank is always ribbing me about my table saws, but, I have 7 table saws with the fence locked. I never have to move the fence. I cut the rough wood to length with a radial arm saw, then do all the operations in making boxes, bottoms, tops, and inner covers by simply walking from one saw to another. (2 are set up with dado. 1 for box joints, 1 for the groove in the side rail of a bottom board.) Once you have the saws set up, all your equipment will be the same, whether you make it today, or next month. I use a miter saw to cut the angle on the inner covers.

Not feasible for a hobby builder, but, if you plan to make a lot, over an extended period of time, the extra saws will soon pay for themselves in making sure all parts will interchange, flat and square, regardless of when they were cut.

cchoganjr


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## gww

Barry
I wish I could have learned some of that long ago and in the correct manner. I am learning most of what I know (or think I know) now at the ripe age of 53. I know now that some things would help but I can't justifie the cost of that equiptment help for my intended uses. I want all of the tools but don't have room or money to get them all. At least not yet:lookout:.
I still wish I had worked with a skilled teacher. I ruined a 10' 1x12 today cause I can't even measure. Had to do a deep box twice and it will work but still isn't perfect (dang it). Its like anything. I can get almost anything done with enough time and matirials but it would be so much better if I knew what I was doing.
Cheers
gww


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## gww

Cleo
Now I am jealous.
Cheers
gww


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## jwcarlson

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I would suggest everyone use what works for them.


Makes sense! 
I wonder how much time time some on this thread have spent jointing boards.  

Do you sell boxes, Cleo?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

jwcarlson said:


> Do you sell boxes, Cleo?


Not just boxes as such, (Unless it is someone in the local area and they need one real quickly.)

For the past 25 to 30 years I have sold bees. I split 135 to 175 hives each year and I put them into all new 10 frame equipment. New bottom board, new deep super, new inner cover, and new top. The completed hive is painted white. I put 5 frames of bees, a new Minnesota Hygenic queen, and 5 frames with foundation, and I sold the unit. 

I made the boxes in the Winter, painted them in early Spring, then split and put bees in them for customer delivery about the 25th of April to 10 May each year.

2015 was my last year. I have retired. I sold my brood stock down to 35 hives and plan to cut to 10 next Spring. I made about 30 complete units this Fall and will split the colonies that come through the Winter strong enough to split, then sell the splits and brood stock down to 10. I will be spending about 8 months each year from now on in Florida, so I won't be around to make equipment, or sell bees.

cchoganjr


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## Mosherd1

I am new to woodworking, and can do enough to get by, but I am wondering why a router would not work, or is not recommended when making the rabbits and frame rests. Thanks,
-Dave


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Mosherd1 said:


> I am wondering why a router would not work, or is not recommended when making the rabbits and frame rests.


A router will work for those, if that is what you want to use. No problem, and would be just as good.

I don't use a router because the same dado setup that cuts the box joints, will also cut the frame rest. So, for me, no need to use a router. 

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Here is a photo of how I cut the frame rest. Is not the only way to do it, just the way I do it.










The pattern you see is anchored in the miter groove of the saw table. Will be the same every time you put it on the saw.

The small block of wood in the center is there so you cannot get your hand, (or other body part) in the dado blade ( in case you fall asleep and fall on the saw table.) No, actually it is there for safety sake.

cchoganjr


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## Acebird

Mosherd1 said:


> I am new to woodworking, and can do enough to get by, but I am wondering why a router would not work, or is not recommended when making the rabbits and frame rests. Thanks,
> -Dave


A router does work but it is slower. A dado set cuts with the grain and develops less heat. The router cuts against the grain and doesn't clear the chips as well so it can burn. The truth of the matter is for bee boxes you don't need any equipment except a hammer and a hand saw. Bees aren't fussy. The whole discussion about a jointer vs. planer came about because Cleo stated that he put the finger joints in the end of the boards from the rough state. If the boards were twisted or bowed to begin with there is no way the boxes would sit flat in the stack. Yes you can hand select lumber that does not have this condition and make an acceptable box but there is a material cost associated with that. Secondly, He is taking 1 inch lumber and wasting 1/4 of it in chips. I would never do that no matter what the price of lumber is.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Acebird said:


> The whole discussion about a jointer vs. planer came about because Cleo stated that he put the finger joints in the end of the boards from the rough state. If the boards were twisted or bowed to begin with there is no way the boxes would sit flat in the stack.


With all due respect, I respectfully say, once again, you are just dead WRONG. I don't have a clue as to how many pieces of bee equipment you have made in your lifetime, but, I will put my boxes and other products up against anyone on the market. Ask the hundreds of people who have purchased from me the past years, and you will find that you can indeed, use 1 inch rough saw, and, make GREAT, bee equipment. As I stated before, there are lots of reasons to use 1 inch, when using rough saw. No need to restate them.

Once again I say, "DO WHATEVER WORKS FOR YOU" Best advice I can give someone just starting to make their equipment.

cchoganjr


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## rwurster

Barry said:


> Thinking back to my training days in woodworking, a jointer was the first step in finishing a rough sawn board. Once the "high" spots were removed on one side, it was then run through a surface planer. Then one edge was finished on the jointer and ripped to size one the table saw. It's not the only way, but the way I was taught 35 years ago.


Thinking back to woodshop, jointer to flatten one side, plane the other side, finish an edge, rip, surface plane to final thickness... logical steps to making parallel surfaces and a square edge to rip from. I've also wrecked hundreds of pallet slats practicing with a hand planer getting parallel surfaces and at probably 200 hours in and some winding sticks I can actually do a decent job of it now. I'd trade my jack plane and bench plane for a surface planer


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## rwurster

Using thicker or thinner lumber means 1 of 2 things, you're going to change inner dimensions to keep outer dimensions the same (bad idea) or you're going to change outer dimensions to keep inner dimensions the same. Ask ace how I know this lol


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## crofter

Inside dimensions call the shot! One thing that is often overlooked including mass produced hive bodies is selecting grain direction to ease assembly and prevent corners splaying out. The wood shrinks more on the bark side than it does on the heart side. Not often you will get 10" wide lumber that is purely quarter sawn so you will have cupping to deal with. The bark side should go to the inside of the box; that will almost always be the cupped side. Your fasteners will easily pull the belly flat against the box. Remember before you cut your rabbets or handholds "Never put your heart in a box of pine." Work with the wood is what a friend of mine often said. He was a boat builder, gunstock carver and violin maker. http://www.pilonsviolinshop.com/


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Crofter.... Good advice.

cchoganjr


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## Phoebee

The last time I saw any mention of quarter-sawed board I was shopping for high quality hardwood flooring. This is dying art stuff, sustained by the few people who still care about craftsmanship. This might be hard to get in utility pine boards unless you have your own bandsaw lumber mill and start with very large logs. Home Depot and Lowes would return a blank stare if you asked for this.

We ended up with recycled barn board, and it would be unusual for those to be quartersawn. The weathered boards are planed (really, I don't know the specific equipment or order of operations) down and reveal a very pretty interior. Edge treatment is tongue and groove. The company we bought from has been doing this, as well as making millwork from new lumber, for decades. They usually sell unfinished, but ours were prefinished.

But now that the boards have been down for a few years, they're definitely cupped slighly. We'll end up having them sanded and refinished.

Some of the leftover boards may make it into oddball bee projects, but oak is not my first choice for common woodenware.


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## Acebird

crofter said:


> Inside dimensions call the shot!


Correct, outside dimensions of the box only affect a telescoping cover.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Acebird said:


> outside dimensions of the box only affect a telescoping cover.


Not totally true.

Acebird, I think you would agree that the outside dimension of a box, also affects the flow of water down the stack. (rainfall). Right??? Water standing in the area where the two boxes touch will be where rot begins.

Also affects how it sits on the bottom board.

Also affects ease of separating boxes during inspections.

Also affects how people look at the equipment you are making.

And on, and on, and on.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Acebird... Now i am really interested in what you have to say. Honestly, tell it like it is. Not an argument, I would just like to hear your rationale for these.

Are you saying that outside dimensions does not affect flow of water down a stack of hives? (what if box # 4 sticks out 1/2 more than the box that is on top of it? Won't water accumulate around the top of box # 4?) Won't water initially flow into the hive until the seam is sealed? Then water will accumulate on this flat surface. 

That outside dimensions do not affect how the boxes sit on a bottom board?? Same as above. If there is a difference in the outside dimensions won't the boxes be indented on the bottom board, or overlap the bottom board?

That outside dimensions does not affect the point of entry when opening a stack for hive inspections.(What if box number #5 overlaps box # 4 by 1/2 inch??)Doesn't that affect the point of entry of your hive tool for breaking the seal on the boxes?

Randy Andy.... I agree. This forum is to discuss differing points of views and how we as beekeepers do things. Hopefully to help those who have less experience in beekeeping. But, I always tell everyone to do what ""works for them""

If you go back in this thread you will find that Barry and I corresponded at length about a process of making box joints in differing thickness of wood. We did not engage in an argument, just exchange of our points of view. As it turned out, we were just failing to communicate. We agreed and all was well in happy bee land.

The beauty of this forum is that purpose and process can be discussed. But it is important to keep in mind that our comments may well be taken as Gospil by those just starting out in beekeeping, so, we need to insure that what we say is at least "rooted" in facts, lest some be led astray.

cchoganjr


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## clyderoad

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> 2015 was my last year. I have retired. I sold my brood stock down to 35 hives and plan to cut to 10 next Spring. I made about 30 complete units this Fall and will split the colonies that come through the Winter strong enough to split, then sell the splits and brood stock down to 10. I will be spending about 8 months each year from now on in Florida, so I won't be around to make equipment, or sell bees.
> 
> cchoganjr


Good for you Cleo!
Might be hard to just sit around in the sun all day, you'll have to find something to do to keep busy.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

clyderoad... I will still spend a lot of time helping beekeepers. And, I fish a lot in Lake Okeechobee.

Retirement from selling bees and building equipment, will give me more time to experiment with purpose and process in beekeeping.

cchoganjr


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## clyderoad

Good to hear. Sure wouldn't want to "lose" another good one to the old rocking chair.
I hope going forward you still spend some time with us here .
All the best Cleo.


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## bw200314

price the boxes from Mann Lake. Any orders over $100 are shipped free. u will have to assemble but that is not a problem. I usally buy the cheap grade since the work nice


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## minz

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Are you saying that outside dimensions does not affect flow of water down a stack of hives? (what if box # 4 sticks out 1/2 more than the box that is on top of it? Won't water accumulate around the top of box # 4?) Won't water initially flow into the hive until the seam is sealed? Then water will accumulate on this flat surface.
> 
> That outside dimensions do not affect how the boxes sit on a bottom board?? Same as above. If there is a difference in the outside dimensions won't the boxes be indented on the bottom board, or overlap the bottom board?
> 
> That outside dimensions does not affect the point of entry when opening a stack for hive inspections.(What if box number #5 overlaps box # 4 by 1/2 inch??)Doesn't that affect the point of entry of your hive tool for breaking the seal on the boxes?'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You got this right! I got some ugly looking stacks out in my yard! Good thing my supers are bigger than my deeps, my deeps are bigger than my bottom boards and the migratory covers almost cover the entire tops of some of the supers! I said it before that not only did I not plane the lumber down enough but I did not cut the dato’s deep enough (sorry only one table saw here). I made up the ID with a piece of ply but now I have another 8 or 10 boxes that are even larger yet. Does it work? Had my biggest honey harvest ever last year!


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