# Can we save our colony?



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

It sounds to me like they swarmed, or more than likely they just flat out absconded. The remaining bees could be just the foragers that returned after the main hive absconded. If so, then 5K older foraging bees would not be worth trying to save, at this time of year especially. If you think you still want to save them, the only way I see is to get them a laying queen pronto and get feeding them.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It is impossible to go from 40k down to 5k within 3 weeks. So Ray maybe correct that they just packed up and left. The remaining bees are still too young to make any QCs. I have read here that any chemical treatment other than OA will caused the queen death. If you want to save this hive then you'll have to pack them in for the winter. Do not allow any extra space inside the hive. Put on syrup, sugar bricks and small amount of patty subs because of the SHB there. It will be a hard winter for them unless you can add bees and cap broods from another hive to the rescue. In time like this having lots of supporting nuc hives will be very helpful, Palmer style. With the 5 frame nuc hives, I can expand and contract quite easily on any season through out the year. Good for situation like this too.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Let's see... you're in Ct? Lovely comb btw! But you have frost coming in Oct....

Winter bees...Even if you found a queen, that hive needed winter bees to be emerging right about now. Winter bees don't have their life span shortened by foraging or feeding little sisters. Even if you tried to get winter bees by inserting a new queen, the soonest a new queen's brood would emerge would be beginning Oct - and cool temps mean it's harder to get brood to "term". Especially with fewer existing bees. Those bees would have to work incredibly hard to keep the brood warm and it's just not likely with those numbers. In fact, the bees you have now will probably die by Nov at the latest (working hard = 2 month life span, if they were born in early Aug....), and may not even survive to keep brood warm enough. If you can't add capped brood, this hive probably can't be saved. And I'm guessing from the build that Lang frames aren't any help. 

But - next year - the comb is a gold mine for your future package/swarm - if you can prevent wax moth from consuming it. After we have a hard freeze, then be sure that hive is closed up tight. THe hard freeze will kill wax moth eggs. Also the less feeding you do, the better for your future bees. Uncapped sugar syrup can ferment and be toxic for your future bees. I'd either freeze uncapped syrup or let it be consumed/robbed out. 

And next year plan to split ASAP (and it will be sooner than you expect since the future bees can just use the comb!) so you have a second hive. I found Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding helpful for thinking about splits. MIchael Bush's website has some great writing about splits too. Just remember when you start a hive with eggs, that hive has a 50/50 chance (or so) of ending up with a mated queen - sometimes they don't make it back. If you plan for that you will have better success. 

Everyone ends up losing a hive at some point. THe key is what you do next...


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## hive beetle (Sep 26, 2017)

I have the exact same hive, 2 of them to be exact and am a first year bee keeper. My hives were 40 miles apart, and did the exact same thing that yours did. your comb photos could have been from my hive. Very discouraging to say the least with this hive box, since my bees were also so big and healthy looking to me, and went down very quickly also. But mine did have the queen and I found her. Closing the hive area with the follower board, reducing the entrance to a small opening, and feeding didnt change anything. Wax worms eventually were too much for them. I didnt see any supercedure cells so I dont think they swarmed. I didnt treat with anything, and was figuring on doing something about mites after labor Day. Now I am at a loss for next year.


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## g1nko (Jun 16, 2016)

I'm super disappointed with Backyard Hives customer support. For all their hippie kum-ba-ya BS about being "bee guardians" they're terrible at customer service. I wrote 3 times during the season for help with this design and never received a single reply. 

I wrote to them after losing the bees and told them I felt designing the hive so you don't even have the option to treat was a disservice to both novices and to the bees. No reply. Nada. Nothing. Crickets chirping were louder.

I'm going to cut the bottom out of this hive, install a screen, and then put on a hinged bottom so I can use MAQS next year instead of just the HopGuard II. That will also let me put in a sticky board, if I want.


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

Mite treatments are difficult in TBHs, but then again everything is. We live in a Langstroth world, and everything - queen rearing, moving hives, feeding sugar water, treating - is a bit harder for us, not due to any particular thing with the hive, but because we are purposely going against the grain, and all the books and catalogs are filled with Langstroth solutions. (Ok, well "moving" is hard because of the hive not breaking apart into sections, admittedly; that's one we can blame right on the hive design!) All the financially viable tools and equipment we find in catalogs don't fit our hives. Hopefully we find the fun of the hives to be worth the bother of thinking "how am I going to build a robber screen for this thing?" every now and then when crisis strikes.

They should have answered you, for sure. But, I think you would probably get better info here than from them. (Plus they are probably having a rough time manning the phones, I figure).


http://scientificbeekeeping.com/mite-management-in-top-bar-hives/

Here's Randy Oliver with a short article on TBHs and mite treatments. Not much here, but it is a place to start, and Randy's good about listing external references.

I've figured 2 or 3 ways to use Oxalic in a TB. There's the "crackpipe" method (I've never done it or seen it, but some people here do it). Best would be to place a normal vaporizor complete in the hive, pack it good with towels, and then attach the battery, I think. You can "dribble" if you want to, or do the shop towel thing; I've heard of those working.

All that being said, I agree with the other posters who said "abscond". I had a hive killed by mites in year 1, and it was terrible and there was no surprise to it. You could see all the bees drunk and listless, with every 5th bee or so with deformed wings. They don't all disappear; they all turn into zombies and then die right in front of you. It was very clear what was happening, and it changed how I thought about treatments and the ethics of treatment free. (You don't have to treat, but you have a moral obligation to not let a sick hive like that suffer or infect other hives. there are two or three ways of doing that, but just "letting them die" is cruel and dangerous to all the wild bees in your area, as well as your neighbors).

So, I sympathize for your loss, but am not sure you could have saved them in any event. A Langstroth is worth the money if you want to be able to buy off-the-shelf feeders, treatments, hand-trucks, foundation and what-not. I still like my topbars, but gaze longingly at the other apiaries I see sometimes when I'm trying to feed my bees.


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## hive beetle (Sep 26, 2017)

I doubt you will hear from backyard hive--they are probably still trying trying to land on this planet from burning man. 

The cathedral hive is nothing more than a double top bar. much more volume and with the frame design the bees dont make brace comb so inspection is easier. The super highway holes really work, as does the ventilation. I basically half copied the backyard examples, and built mine like a tank out of 2x12 lumber cut to their rough inside dimensions instead of that specialty milled stuff they were talking about. mine are heavier, but its much cheaper plus more natural insulation from the thicker wood. If we get a good hurricane, I could probably put a 15 yamaha on this thing and ride it to the house. 

I figured once I got the hive set i wouldnt have to move anything but the frames anyway. I designed a higher roof that i thought would provide more ventilation here in the south. I also hinged the top half to the bottom half so I wouldnt have to lift all that out of the way each time. You just lift the roof off, which is made from waterproof siding guaranteed for 50 years--and not heavy----and then open the top on the hinges to expose the frames. Looks like a bee grill sort of thing. Very easy to work. Plus i have a gasket running the circumference of the top that completely seals the hive closed like a casket, so no critters can get in thru warpage or gaps.

I have a mason jar beetle trap under the floor baited with vinegar and banana peels that the bees readily run the hive beetles into, thru a hole in the hive bottom. it works like a champ. Bees run the beetles into the hole, they go into the mason jar to the bait and get trapped in the mineral oil. You dont have to go into the hive to check and change out the beetle trap. Just unscrew it from the bottom to clean and rebait.

I have a tube that runs into an inside feeder container that i can fill from the outside quickly with a huge syringe, and can see the level thru the observation window. And now i am making a beetle trap entrance thats a little complicated but should prevent many beetles from even entering the hive. 

As far as wax moths, that 2 liter bottle trap with the banana peel really works, and I wish i had put those out earlier. but these are secondary problems, and everyone says that a strong hive is the key. easier said than done, and was being done until suddenly it seemed, like G1NKO said, It all went downhill in a hurry. I was checking on these weekly as this happened, and I figured it was the dearth and the queen was cutting back, etc. 

This thing is a bee generator it seems to me when things are going well. maybe the problem is indeed tough to treat, even though if you look at fat bee man videos he wouldnt hesitate to vaporize this thing with mineral oil and wintergreen oil. And he says that vaporized oxalic acid is ok for the honey being in there, but I have read otherwise. Of course sometimes i think F bee man would treat with Quaker State if it killed something other than a bee. 

And there is also that sugar dusting stuff, which seems very labor intensive to keep that up and the results may be minimal. I can vaporize oxalic acid thru the bottom after removing my hive beetle jar, so I may go that route. 

So i will try this hive once more next year and see what happens. And treat with something somehow. Les Crowder says that creosote smoke kills mites, and he used that to keep varroa at bay until he got mite resistant Russian bees. maybe Russian bees with honey that tastes like an old railroad tie is the solution. 

Can it be that the problem with this hive is the thing is TOO BIG? Is that a thing, can bees draw out all these big beautiful combs and then have way to much area to guard when they decrease in numbers? Maybe its a combo treatment and management problem. It is a PITA! It seems like everything on the planet, from mites to beetles to wax moths to mother in laws lay in wait for that honey and the bees dont have much of a chance on a good day.


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## Delta 21 (Mar 4, 2016)

hive beetle said:


> The cathedral hive is nothing more than a double top bar. much more volume and with the frame design the bees dont make brace comb so inspection is easier. The super highway holes really work, as does the ventilation.
> 
> Can it be that the problem with this hive is the thing is TOO BIG? Is that a thing, can bees draw out all these big beautiful combs and then have way to much area to guard when they decrease in numbers? Maybe its a combo treatment and management problem. It is a PITA! It seems like everything on the planet, from mites to beetles to wax moths to mother in laws lay in wait for that honey and the bees dont have much of a chance on a good day.


I am planning on building one of these this winter. Was already figuring in a robber screen and thru the bottom feeders/traps. 
I am confused / concerned about the ventilation. With my top bars, they are shut up tight on the top, when I tried putting vent holes, the bees closed them off. So the only ventilation is the front door and they seem to like it that way. 3" in the summer and 2 bees wide in the winter. Could the big combs need to be closer managed with the population of bees? Mine dont like very much extra space at all, and it is very frustrating when in-laws raid the honey stores.

opcorn:

I remember in Crowder's book, he spoke of using chaparral leaves to smoke the bees with to keep the mites down. Is that the same plant as creasote, or am I thinking wrong?


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## hive beetle (Sep 26, 2017)

The vents on this hive seem to work ok. My bees also liked to close them off on the top bars, mainly over the brood area. They seemed to know what they were doing, and the entrance is about 7 inches wide and about 1/2 inch deep. When the hive really got going they used all that entrance and had plenty of guards to handle it. It was probably my fault when they dwindled that i didnt close the opening down quick enough. 

do your top bars make plenty of drones? Mine made about 2 combs of drones, and this was probably the mite breeding area. thats one area that may be a problem. the bees had backfilled most of the drone comb with honey before their end. 

They had a lot of comb, honey and pollen, and started to taper off in June. Maybe I should have started taking some honey in the back and reducing the number of combs to keep their space tighter. they had plenty of honey and pollen on top and around the brood combs. both of my queens had the same sparse brood patterns--maybe when they got weak she just wasnt interested in laying.


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## hive beetle (Sep 26, 2017)

just reread Crowder. he said he used smoker fuel from a creosote bush. I dont think we have many of those in Carolina....  i have never smoked my bees, not that i am anti smoker. just that it gives me a headache if i am around very much of it. I usually used nothing and the bees didnt mind. And if they got curious and wouldnt get away from the bars i used a fine mist water sprayer and gave them the hose, and they moved. now if that creosote smoke killed mites, I would smoke them like a coal fired locomotive if i could find that wood.


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## Delta 21 (Mar 4, 2016)

hive beetle said:


> do your top bars make plenty of drones?


I've spent 30 minutes in a hive just poking drone cells...Then its time to do something else!
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ped-swarm-on-the-ground&p=1546142#post1546142
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Thanks* g1nko* for sharing this. I know you are learning a lot very fast and I appreciate you letting me learn with you. 

That comb is your ticket to an earlier stronger hive next year. :thumbsup:


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Seems to me that the bees would treat a cathedral hive as a large log tipped sideways. So they should prefer the broodnest to be close to the entrance and the honey to be deeper. The queen lays between 1000-3000 eggs a day. A cathedral frame is what- 5000 cells on a side? She can fill a cath frame in what- 3 days? so she can fill at most 7 frames before the first one she started on will be emerging. This should be the ideal size of the brood nest, right? Is it too much to patrol? should be fine, as long as you can prevent swarming by constantly expanding their "broodnest" until you get to 7 brood combs. Just guessing though, I am most familiar with lang sized frames, as my tbh are the size of a lang deep frame. 

I check for mites with an alcohol wash. Since I have top bars, not frames, getting the bees into the collection jar is a bit more work. I built a rickety bar holder - holds 2 bars - and I hold the cup with alcohol under a clump of bees. Then I run a stick up then down to brush bees into the cup. I don't usually get stung when I do this.  But they don't like it.

I check for mites in Feb or so, then in April, then June, then Aug, then end Sept or Oct, then Nov. It's an important tool for me. I use a bar that is close to (but not quite in) the brood nest and has a lot of bees. But not chock-full of bees.

I use OAV when the mites get over 4-5% or are rising quickly from less than 1% to 4%. I will not use the queens for splits or allow drones to survive from my top mite breeders.  I move honey bars to the rear of the hive, or even removed the bars to an empty box to make room for the dang wand. I put it under the brood nest only, 2 "scoops" of their glorified wood bleach. I put a solid follower board on the wand, put a towel over the gaps, and check for mites in 2 weeks or so. It's best to do this with minimal brood numbers. 

There is a beeK in OH who uses drone comb culling exclusively for her mite control. No other treatments. We can do something similar - the bees prefer drone comb to be on the outside of the broodnest, like combs 8-10 in a cathedral hive (assuming the beekeeper was inserting empty frames at the broodnest/honey storage boundary so the bees always had room to expand). So I mark the drone brood combs, and sometimes remove it, and the bees are pretty consistent about replacing the drone cut comb with more drone brood. That's part of my plan for mite management next year. 

And now for some ADD - Delta21 in the post you linked to, there was something about swarms. I put out lang deep boxes (sometimes with frames) as swarm traps, and if the bees show interest, it tells me I had better look for queen cells! I like that "anti-swarming" tool.


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