# Beekeeping is a very cheap hobby



## Nabber86

Not one dime? That's preposterous. How come it cost me almost $1,000 over the last fours years? I must be a really bad hobbiest. :scratch: 

This is the equipment that I purchased. I am sure you can cut some of the stuff out, but it has to be farily typical of a small hobbiest: 

4 complete hives each with 4 medium supers
160+ frames (ALL woodenware came un-assembled so I could save money)
160 sheets of foundation
2 nucs purchased locally
1 mail-order queen
a bottling bucking with honey gate
1 bee suit
1 extra vail
Smoker
a couple of epi-pens
1 box of Api-Guard Thymol Gel
200 squeze-top honey bottles
nails
1 bottle of Tight-Bound Glue
1 can of paint
Leather gloves
Latex gloves
hive tool
Heck, I have spent over $200 on shipping alone. 

I have been able to not buy any bees since my initial purchase (catch swarms and do splits). I also managed to sell 60 pounds of honey last fall, so I can subtract $300 from my capital outlay thus far.


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## BMAC

well he is right. You really don't need any money at all to get into keeping honeybees. All you need is a rotted hollow log and a swarm of bees hanging in a tree. Now for the rest of us that use Langstroth hives and want to keep the majority of the stingers out of us. Well that costs money. Not a ton but I can tell you I can make a 10 gallon batch of beer cheaper than I can buy a beesuit with veil and gloves.


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## Nabber86

Dont even get me started on the money that I have spent brewing beer........


At least with a lot of luck, skill, and time you can re-coup some of the investment of hobby beekeeping by selling honey. I may even break even some day. None of my other hobbies have the ability to pay me back. 


(Did somebody mention "Reef Tanks"? I got over 4 grand in one of those )


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## BMAC

making beer sure can be the one that is most satisfying. Well maybe 4 weeks after brewing! HA!


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## quevernick

I'm going into my second year of beekeeping as a hobby. As far as a hobby this is one of the few I have broken even or made money on and I've had a few. Now I did do quite a bit of work between breaking apart pallets, constructing boxes, grabbing swarms, and doing a cutout. But I enjoyed most of the work which is a sign of a good hobby. I had probably less than $100 invested last year which was a shop vac and a bunch of sugar to feed the swarms.


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## Nabber86

That is awesome, but probably not the norm. 

And still infinitely more than Aces's "not spend one dime".


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## quevernick

I agree it definately isnt the norm and I did have to spend a bit of money. However I did come out about $50 ahead from the cutout I did. To be honest after about 6-7 hours in almost 100 degree weather I probably should have charged more


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## Acebird

My point is you can make all the equipment yourself with scrap wood that people throw out and you can collect swarms. A bee suit is not required. For the first two years we used a straw hat and a mosquito net with heavy cloths as protection. About all that is required is a hive tool which again you could make or use a flat bar picked up at a tag sale. If you are going to value the honey you get from the hobby it more than likely will end up as a net gain (as far as hobby is concerned). Why else would so many hobbyist get the bright idea of going into business? It is that decision that makes the numbers go the other way because then your time is money.


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## Solomon Parker

You've done this? :applause:


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## Nabber86

So Ace, tell us approximately how much you have spent on your hobby? 

Didnt you start with package bees and a hive kit?

How'd that home made extractor work out for you?


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## Acebird

I did not say I didn't spend any money, I said it could be done. And I know people that have done it for years. What bugs me is when you join a club or take a class and they come out with that laundry list like you just posted saying this is what you got to have.

To answer your question, nothing. My wife pays for everything.


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## Nabber86

So as usual you are providing information that you yourself have no experience with and is patently false (not spending a dime).


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## quevernick

A hive tool isnt really necessary either Ive been using a bread knife. First time I ever worked the bees I must of used almost an entire roll of duct tape sealing my self up :lpf:. Anymore I rarely use the bee veil I made. Heres a picture of my very first "Bee Suit":









You can see my homemade smoker which consisted of 2 cans, a piece of wood, and a bunch of duct tape.


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## BMAC

Acebird said:


> My point is you can make all the equipment yourself with scrap wood that people throw out and you can collect swarms. A bee suit is not required. For the first two years we used a straw hat and a mosquito net with heavy cloths as protection. About all that is required is a hive tool which again you could make or use a flat bar picked up at a tag sale.


Yes scrap wood can be used but to say you don't need to spend any money because you can use scrap wood to make equipment and you can make your own hive tool all requires tools. Those tools generally cost money less someone is a user of people and constantly milk folks for their tools.


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## Risky Beesness

I have to say, as a scuba diver, underwater photographer, and whitewater enthusiast, beekeeping is my least expensive hobby. The thought that it might generate some revenue is nice, because the others certainly do not. 

Of course the Kawasaki Mule that I "had to have" to drive down to my hives, upped the anty a little. :shhhh:


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## Ranger Cody

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch..... That's what we were taught in economics. Which means that for everything we do, there is an opportunity cost, which is generally whatever activity we could have been doing instead. That being said.... what else would anyone want to do other than have their head in a hive all the time?!?


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## jim314

Risky Beesness said:


> Of course the Kawasaki Mule that I "had to have" to drive down to my hives, upped the anty a little. :shhhh:


You have to have some reason to justify that new Mule


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## Michael B

While it does cost money to get started for most of us.....if you handy and want to work at it you can get every dollar back that you spend and then some.

I make all of my own equipment......Home Depot Cull Lumber is great. Just about free. I sell honey, candles, nucs, and woodenware. This winter I turned a profit. Going to raise about 20-30 queens this year and sell them too.

All of this while working 7 days a week in my day job.


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## divemaster1963

I guess I'm as close to the topic as can be.





















I made the saw from 2 saws that were in a trash pile. got the materail for the barrel from a wire supplier that was throwing them away. and cut and dry the trees for the wood for the boxes. the tablesaws were my fathers and grandfathers pass down. I now have 25 hives and my tools are hand made smoker from bean cans hive tool from peace of metal from the trash. vail from a piece of netting from old torn tent. hard hat from long ago job.I form my own foundation sheets now made from a fiberglass model I made. I have a total of 75.00 which has been payed back in full.

guess I just a lucky and handy man.

john


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## divemaster1963

missed photo


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## beeware10

divemaster
good to hear from an old school beekeeper. sometimes things are better if you work for them.


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## quevernick

How do you like the chainsaw mill, I've been thinking about building one.


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## NW_Mark

Nabber86 said:


> Dont even get me started on the money that I have spent brewing beer........
> 
> 
> At least with a lot of luck, skill, and time you can re-coup some of the investment of hobby beekeeping by selling honey. I may even break even some day. None of my other hobbies have the ability to pay me back.
> 
> 
> (Did somebody mention "Reef Tanks"? I got over 4 grand in one of those )


All of my reef new would have cost me over 10 grand. most was used. Now lets add up the cost of fish and corals.I still fork out about 2 grand a year to keep it running (light bulbs, food,elect bill. 

So far with bees I might have a grand in it. Should have dones bees a long time ago and would have saved some $$. And if all goes right (fingers crossed) I might get something in return for my hard work.


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## Gypsi

My coral raising failed, so I'll second this.


Nabber86 said:


> At least with a lot of luck, skill, and time you can re-coup some of the investment of hobby beekeeping by selling honey. I may even break even some day. None of my other hobbies have the ability to pay me back.
> 
> 
> (Did somebody mention "Reef Tanks"? I got over 4 grand in one of those )


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## Gypsi

Nabber86 said:


> So as usual you are providing information that you yourself have no experience with and is patently false (not spending a dime).



I thought he said he was a "kept" man
.:scratch:


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## Nabber86

Well I guess it is all relative. Compared to hobbies like salt water aquaria, compitition BBQ, scuba diving, golf, snow skiing, etc., beekeeping is inexpensive, but not free. Compared to knitting, crochet, and belly button lint collection, beekeeping is outrageously expensive. Beer brewing is somewhere in between, depending on how many extra fridgerators, soda kegs, 3-tier brewing systems, stainless steel, and recirculating mash systems you have. 

Anyway, the point I was trying to make earlier is that the idea of beekeeping for free (not spending a dime) is ridiculous. For those who make all of their own woodenware, that is awesome and I applaud you. But aside from cobbling some boxes together with a circular saw (which I have done), building the frames requires a little more skill and woodworking equipment than most people have. If you already have that kind of skill and equipment, how much have you spent on your woodworking shop already? 

Also consider - How many hobby beekeepers start out by building their own equipment and then going out and trying to catch a free swarm to save money? From all the newbie posts about which is better (nucs or packages?), my guess is ziltch. 

Can beekeeping be done for little money? Heck yeah, for some very few prople. For free (less than a dime)? Hell no. 

In conclusion, Ace asserts that anyone can start up and keep bees for free, yet he remains silent as to how much he (or his wife) has spent on the hobby. Nice diversion, but I suspect it wasn't free!


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## Nabber86

Gypsi said:


> My coral raising failed, so I'll second this.


We actually sold a few nice pieces of coral on e-Bay in the beginning and made a couple of hundred dollars, but then the tank got invaded with aptasia and now it is a total wasteland. Continual O&M costs for the electricity of metal halide lamps, and pumps, and salt, and RO/DI top-off water isn't helping the initial capital investment either. Although from some of the attitudes displayed in this thread, I guess it would be easy to just hop on a plane to the south Pacific and load up on as much "free" livestock as I can using my cobbled together scuba equipment, and off-set all of my livestock costs thus making it a "free" hobby.

Again, I am not saying that beekeeping a really expensive hobby. But it is nowhere near free, or even relatively cheap for most people.


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## lazy shooter

I'm in the process of building trebuchet out of treated lumber. When finished I will be able to sling a 10 lb. object 200 plus meters. A profit will never be made with this machine. I probably have a $1,000.00 in my three bee hives after the first year. They could eventually be profitable, but I don't care one way or the other. I have worked long and hard and the bees and the trebuchet are my toys. To my way of thinking I am a hobbyest, but that doesn't mean I want to learn any less than the rest of the beekeepers.


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## D Semple

I netted about 5 k my first year by doing cutouts and catching swarms. This year I hope to double that.


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## quevernick

I did start catching swarms instead of using a package or nuc. Langstroth hives are a little more complicated to build but a Top Bar Hive is incredibly simple to build. Building a Top Bar Hive could be done with just a handsaw and some scrap materials. One of the plastic blue 30 or 55 gallon drums cut in half and some pieces of wood placed on top. I built my TBH out of an old fence my folks had just torn down. In my case I didn't actually keep bee for free I actually made about $50 doing it. I understand that what I did is not the norm but it is definately possible.


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## Gypsi

Those that don't have time or a lot of shop tools spend money.
I'd have done better last year to spend time, maybe. But I
Would have had to just skip bees, and books are no substitute
For hands on experience. I had no free time in the spring.
Either way it would not have been free.


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## BeeGhost

Sure, a person could get into bekeeping for next to nothing if they spend all their free time scrapping. But, if you have four young kids and a full time job, free time is hard to come by. I do make some of my wooden ware, but to me, making frames and hive bodies is too time consuming and are easier to purchase and assemble. When the kids are grown and I am bored as heck, i'll make my own stuff just for something to keep my mind and body busy, but until then, Mann Lake is getting my business. 

Hunting and fishing and 4-H are my other hobbies that I really enjoy as well, and each has its own return on investment, but beekeeping is something I wish I would have started years ago, its addicting to me. I havnt seen my bees in almost a week and I am going through withdrawls!!!


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## Specialkayme

D Semple said:


> I netted about 5 k my first year by doing cutouts and catching swarms.


How much was the equipment that you need to properly do a cutout?

Some cutouts don't require much equipment (a ladder, a multi-tool, and a box to put the bees in) but others will require much more (scafolding, permits, a truck, gas, ect.).

Even if you had the equipment given to you, how much was the labor involved in removing them?

To say you made $5k your first year from doing work, sure. To say you didn't spend a dime to make that first $5k is a beast of a different color.


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## Specialkayme

A guy in TN that I met (and bought some bees off of) was having a similar conversation with me. He told me that you could get into beekeeping for zero dollars (while he was selling me bees, which I thought was hilarious). He told me how I could get the wood for free and make the equipment if I wanted . . . if I had a table saw, a band saw, a router . . . 

He went further to explain to me two similar examples. He said I could build a house out of used pallets if I wanted to. Even showed me a drawing of how to do it. He hadn't done it, of course, but theoretically it was free. Then he went on to explain why he was getting out of keeping bees. It cost too much in medications, equipment, time, ect. He started a new hobby, gold panning. He built a bunch of traps and had them laid out in the creeks. He didn't have time to keep bees and watch his gold traps. He said he made most of the traps himself, so saved a crud ton of money. He said you could get into that for free too. I asked how much money he made in gold. He said $5.42. I asked how much he spent on his equipment. He said "probably between $200-$300." Still not free.

Many people will look at it and say you can do it for free. Sure, it's possible, but the time and money you spend on making it "free" negates the point. Even if you get free wood to make hives, free bees from swarms, and get free equipment to make the hives, you still spend money on gas, nails, queens (when you crush one from learning), medications, sugar, pollen sub, ect. Sure you don't have to buy all that stuff, but it's unrealistic to say everyone doesn't have to by any of it.

Anything can be free . . . if you spend enough time on it . . . even building your own home. But the time you spend is still worth something, and if you have a job you can use that time to work, get paid, then buy equipment. Using that rationale, it's cheaper for me to work and buy than it is to make. If it's cheaper than free, it works for me 

To say you can make money in the end is a different issue though. Yes you can get paid back for your investment, but to say you don't need to spend a dime isn't the same as saying you re-coup your investment.


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## bluegrass

Anybody know what it cost Al Avitabile to get started? A swarm landed on a bush outside his office window and he took it home in a borrowed trash can and installed it in a borrowed hive box. I think we would all agree he makes more than he spends 

I don't know what I have spent in beekeeping over the years, but I know I am not in the red. If it were not a cheap hobby I would not be doing it... I am the most frugal person I know. I have been know to drive around and pick up pallets and cut them up for firewood so I didn't have to buy heating oil or cord wood.


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## Nabber86

*ReBeekeeping is a very cheap hobby*



D Semple said:


> I netted about 5 k my first year by doing cutouts and catching swarms. This year I hope to double that.


Some of those swarms probably came from my yard!


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## Kieck

I think the title of the thread should be, "Beekeeping can be an inexpensive hobby." That title would be more precise.

"Cheap" and "inexpensive" are too different things. They shouldn't be confused.

And "can be" fits far better than "is." For most folks, beekeeping isn't inexpensive. I've had a number of people tell me they want to keep bees to "get some free honey." Then they invest hundreds of dollars into equipment and bees and maybe, hopefully, get a little honey back. I usually recommend that if inexpensive honey is their only objective, they would be better off buying honey in bulk.

Also, any number of hobbies or pasttimes can be less expensive than beekeeping. Birdwatching comes to mind. That's a hobby that is enjoyed by millions of people and requires nothing more than watching birds, if one chooses. Like most hobbies, though, people that engage fully in it will likely spend money on guide books and binoculars and feeders and other paraphernalia in their pursuit of the hobby.


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## Acebird

Nabber86 said:


> Compared to knitting, crochet, and belly button lint collection, beekeeping is outrageously expensive.


Do you knit or crochet? The yarn will cost you more than the garment is worth.




> In conclusion, Ace asserts that anyone can start up and keep bees for free, yet he remains silent as to how much he (or his wife) has spent on the hobby.


You really do have a problem with reading comprehension or maybe it is just that you like to twist the words of other people. I suspect the latter.

Does anyone care that we spent more than 300 on our hobby? It is enjoyment for us. A lot of people blow that for two months of thumb crack.

Some of the previous posts proves my point but you keep arguing that it is false. Is everybody doing it? No, I didn't say that.

Barry, that is cool that you can strip an off topic from another thread and make it separate.


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> You really do have a problem with reading comprehension or maybe it is just that you like to twist the words of other people.



From Ace in the opening post od this thread: "_*It is the only hobby that I know of where you literally do not have to spend one dime to get into. "

*_Reading comprehension?! :lpf::lpf:


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## Acebird

Kieck said:


> Birdwatching comes to mind. That's a hobby that is enjoyed by millions of people and requires nothing more than watching birds, if one chooses.


First off, I agree with your title wording. Birdwatching is not much of a hobby if you are limited to your kitchen window. Typically it requires traveling and traveling is not cheap by anyone's standards.


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## snl

SK......
He said he "netted about 5k" .............that's pure profit as net profit is what's left over after all expenses are deducted................


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## Nabber86

I have a question about this free "scrap lumber" that people keep mentioning. Where is this coming from? I did a little searching on Craigslist and Freecycle and found a lot of pallets and odd-sized scrap piles that people were giving away or selling (cheap, but not free). Sawmills were mentioned, but those are non-existent in my neck of the woods (because of lack of woods). 

I actually bought a really nice table saw on Craigslist this week. Old school, cast iron deck, belt and motor drive. It's a work of art itself and I got it for an unbelievable price. So now I can start making woodenware from scrap, right?

Oh wait. I notice the pallets and scrap are all different sizes, especially the thicknesses. I guess I will have to by a plainer/jointer to make my free woodenware now. :doh:


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## D Semple

Specialkayme said:


> How much was the equipment that you need to properly do a cutout?
> 
> Some cutouts don't require much equipment (a ladder, a multi-tool, and a box to put the bees in) but others will require much more (scafolding, permits, a truck, gas, ect.).
> 
> Even if you had the equipment given to you, how much was the labor involved in removing them?
> 
> To say you made $5k your first year from doing work, sure. To say you didn't spend a dime to make that first $5k is a beast of a different color.


I said I *netted* $5,000

I grossed $10,465 - all in fees from 14 removals, 13 swarm catches, 4 removals farmed out to others, and $375 from bees sold. 
Plus I have 15 strong hives (still alive) (Of the original 27 I caught or removed, I had 2 abscond, sold 5, combined 4, and have lost 1 over the winter so far)

Had about $2,000 in wooden ware and frame cost (I make all my own equipment)
2 home bee vacs (thx Robo) set me back about $200
I already owned the truck, ladders, and scaffolding but figured $1,000 towards their costs (I'm a commercial roofing contractor)
Misc other equipment maybe $500
Liability Insurance $685
Wife Tax about $1,500 :scratch:

Labor don't count - IT'S A HOBBY - But I probably put in something the neighborhood of 200 extra hours spread out over 3 months (all of it an absolute blast!  http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj72/DSemple/Bees 2011/

My whole point is to show others you can at least breakeven your 1st year with a little ingenuity, IF you care to.

Don


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## Acebird

Nabber86 said:


> I guess I will have to by a plainer/jointer to make my free woodenware now. :doh:


Bees don't care what the outside looks like and they will take care of the inside.

Watch the DIY network. There has to be 20 tons of lumber a week going into the landfill, all good lumber. You couldn't put a dent in all the lumber wasted making bee equipment.


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## Daniel Y

I agree with Ace. I could start beekeeping for nothing. I didn't but I could. What I did spend money on is now worth nearly 8 times what I spent. That does in fact go in the asset column. I did not have to spend any money. I chose to. some things simply where not worth the effort. Making frames for example.
I could also use equipment that is not mine, and it woudl hardly be considered "Milking" I get invited to use other peoples equipment all the time. It is called teaching a class. In like manner I have an invitation to build a rocket mass heater that others will pay for. It is also considered teaching. I teach people how to use a wood lathe. and I can teach others how to make a beehive. in the process I will make one and keep it and never use one pieced of equipment or one tool I own in the process. I could require that the materials be supplied and actually ask for payment for my time. And I still get a free hive out of it.
I am actually pretty shocked of the claim that you could not start beekeeping at no cost. IT is pretty obvious to me that it can be done.


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## D Semple

Nabber86 said:


> Some of those swarms probably came from my yard!


Paul, I didn't catch any swarms over your way, but I have a removal lined up for April over on 223rd St. Be glad to let you have it, if you want to get some of your own bees back. 


Don


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## Rader Sidetrack

Around here, standard 40"x48" four-way pallets that are in good condition are generally reused / returned. So the ones available for free are often damaged ones that are difficult to reclaim usable wood from. But those damaged pallets make decent free compost bins. Stand 4 on edge in a square, use unbent wire coat hangers to wire them together and fill er up!

Of more interest to me for reclaiming useful wood are oversize shipping frames for things like firewood splitters, riding mowers, etc. Those odd sized items are just scrap that the retailer has to pay to have hauled away. Check with places like Tractor Supply and independent mower retailers (not big box stores.) I have recovered a considerable amount of kiln dried 1x4's and 1x8's from such frames. If you can get multiple matching frames [over time], its easier to figure out a process for reusing the wood.


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## Acebird

D Semple said:


> I said I *netted* $5,000
> Labor don't count - IT'S A HOBBY - But I probably put in something the neighborhood of 200 extra hours spread out over 3 months (all of it an absolute blast!  http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj72/DSemple/Bees 2011/
> 
> My whole point is to show others you can at least breakeven your 1st year with a little ingenuity, IF you care to.
> 
> Don


Far from a hobby if you are getting liability insurance and pulling in 10K but anyway I like the IR photography. Did you buy that camera? What did you use?


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## Kieck

> Birdwatching is not much of a hobby if you are limited to your kitchen window. -Acebird


Right. The same as waiting for all the stuff you need to get into beekeeping to show up at your doorstep isn't much of a hobby. The point here is that while you _could_ get into beekeeping at minimal expense, it isn't typical and it likely isn't the best way to enter beekeeping as a hobby.

Those "free" sources of lumber that you go pick up? How much does it cost to go get them? Gov't figures 37 cents a mile to drive an average vehicle now. Same goes for going to pick up swarms, etcetera. Unless they show up on your doorstep (and that could happen), at least some minimal expense is likely to be incurred.

For a person starting out (and I know I will be labeled as one of those who lists costs that might not be necessary), I recommend buying woodenware, a veil, a smoker, a hive tool, and bees, as a minimum. I also recommend anticipating some additional expenses along the way. Replacement queens or even bees, maybe some feeding if the beekeeper worries about them, some of the gadgets that most of us in any hobby "have to have" when we discover them, and so on.


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## Gypsi

I figure my time is worth a minimum of $50 an hour. I have an old pallet out next to my driveway, came with rock on it last year, i was going to use it to make swarm traps. The nails are rusted in places..... I am not sure it is worth my time to take the thing apart. I bought a sheet of 3/8 plywood for tops and bottoms on last year's sub-par equipment. Anyone want this pallet?

And feeding is not optional during a drought / dearth. Weak hives that were not fed die in snap freezes.


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## cg3

This thread caused me to do a little math. Next year honey will be $47/lb.


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## D Semple

Acebird said:


> Far from a hobby if you are getting liability insurance and pulling in 10K but anyway I like the IR photography. Did you buy that camera? What did you use?


My original plan last spring was to just get 3 hives. Put myself on some swarms lists and I started getting removal calls. One thing led to another and it snowballed on me. Michael Bush and JPthebeeman helped me out. 
Still consider it a hobby though as I’m probably only pulling in about $1.85 an hour!

The infrared camera is also from my regular job. It’s nice to use, but really completely unnecessary for removals, a $25 stethoscope is all a guy needs.


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## Acebird

Great, got one of those free.

Here is the oxymoron. You consider it a hobby. The IRS considers it a hobby too but you cannot claim any deductions but must claim 10K in income! Get a DBA, file your taxes, claim your income and claim all your expenses so your hobby costs you nothing.

*KEEP GOOD RECORDS don't run it like a hobby.


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## Mr. C

I definately am not getting into this hobby? (obsession is more accurate I think) for free. I build most of my own things, but I still have equipment costs etc. That being said, If you want to start counting time as a resource it's only fair that you count the pleasure gained from doing it in your cost too (economics opportunity cost yada yada). I'm definately way ahead there so far. Since everything takes time even belly button lint collecting that someone pointed out isn't free. I don't like that definition of free, it's not particularly useful. If I was stubborn enough and not as picky as I am I could start this hobby without outlaying any cash money. That is free to me. I'm not going to do it, but I could and I think that's the point.


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## snl

Acebird said:


> Here is the oxymoron. You consider it a hobby. The IRS considers it a hobby too but you cannot claim any deductions but must claim 10K in income!. *KEEP GOOD RECORDS don't run it like a hobby.


Not true Ace........if it's a hobby, hobby deductions cannot exceed income. If it's a business they can........but there are other rules on this..........


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## Acebird

snl said:


> if it's a hobby, hobby deductions cannot exceed income.


Could you show me what line that is on for a 1040? My accountant must have missed that one.


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## snl

Ace.....see below.........there is more on @ www.irs.gov. Very simplistically, you must report hobby income to the extent that exceeds hobby expenses.......but again there are other rules that suggest a hobby is business when certain other guidelines are met......too much to go into here........

What are allowable hobby deductions under IRC 183?
If your activity is not carried on for profit, allowable deductions cannot exceed the gross receipts for the activity.
Deductions for hobby activities are claimed as itemized deductions on Schedule A, Form 1040. These deductions must be taken in the following order and only to the extent stated in each of three categories:


 Deductions that a taxpayer may claim for certain personal expenses, such as home mortgage interest and taxes, may be taken in full.
 Deductions that don’t result in an adjustment to the basis of property, such as advertising, insurance premiums and wages, may be taken next, to the extent gross income for the activity is more than the deductions from the first category.
 Deductions that reduce the basis of property, such as depreciation and amortization, are taken last, but only to the extent gross income for the activity is more than the deductions taken in the first two categories.


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## snl

Acebird said:


> My accountant must have missed that one.


Time for a new accountant, preferably a CPA. If he / she missed that one, what else did they miss?


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> Bees don't care what the outside looks like and they will take care of the inside.


I am just learning about woodworking, but I believe one needs a jointer to plain downs the edges of the scrap so you can join (glue) them together. If you take apart a pallet, you end up with several pieces of (and I am guessing here) nominal 1" x 4" stock, certainly nothing wide enough to build a medium super. Hence you need a jointer. If the thickness of the stock actually ranges from 1/2" to 7/8", you need to plane the surfaces down to a uniform thickness. It's got nothing to do with making the boxes look pretty.


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## Dynasty

Geesh, i thought that spending all the money i did on my soon to be first year, was spent wisely. But apparently i spent way more than i needed too. I'm way over .10$ 

But i now have everything i need for 6 hives in my first year.


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## Barry

Nabber86 said:


> I am just learning about woodworking, but I believe one needs a jointer to plain downs the edges of the scrap so you can join (glue) them together.


Not completely true. Another way to glue up boards of various thickness is to "biscuit join" the boards. Say if you set the biscuit joiner to 5/16" (this being the center of the cut for the biscuit), you just need to always cut the slots using the outside finish of the board. If this is done, the biscuits will align the boards all flush on the outside (finish side) and leave the unevenness to the inside. Does this make sense?


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## Nabber86

SNL is correct. You can deduct hobby expenses, you just cant show a loss and you are limited to simple expenses that are easy to prove (no equipment depreciation, or such). 

Case in point. If I "win" $500 dollars in a BBQ contest, the contest organizer sends me a 1099-MISC form along with the check. This needs to be reported as "other income" when I file taxes. The problem is, I ususally spend more than $500 on entry fees, meat, beer, and gas. OK I probably cant deduct the beer, but entry fees, gas, and the meat that I cook are all deductable. You just have to keep legit receipts. 

The same is true with honey sales. If you sell $500 worth of honey as a hobbiest you are supposed to report it as income (even if it was strictly cash under the table). You can deduct some of the expenses that went into producing the honey. Although in this case probably only the cost of the plastic squeeze bear bottles and caps. 

You just cant do anything stupid like trying to deduct a $1000 honey extractor that you bought from the $500 income, and claim a $500 loss.


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## quevernick

Or you can just glue 2 boards together and then stagger them a bit so they overlap when you screw them together on the corners. Here are some pictures of 8 frame medium boxes built entirely out of scrap pallet wood:

https://picasaweb.google.com/115931992924380826986/MediumBoxes?authuser=0&feat=directlink


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## Mr. C

I was of the understanding that like you said you can take itemized deduction for some things under hobby (equipment costs have to be spread over the expected life of the machine I believe), BUT for many people after they calculate out itemized deductions it ends up that a standard deduction often times is greater than the itemized (obviously varies from person to person). Because of that you end up claiming all of your income and none of the deductions (because you take a standard deduction). If you run it as a business for tax purposes you can deduct your expenditures from your gross cash flow and only claim profit as income. That means for most people you pay less. I also heard/read (I'm should begin with I'm not a CPA or taxpro) that if you claim an operating loss more than a year or two the IRS will bump you back to hobby status and your stuck trying for itemized expenses.

I know last year I tried itemized deductions, but the standard deduction was still better so I just wasted a bunch of time.


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## Acebird

> You just cant do anything stupid like trying to deduct a $1000 honey extractor that you bought from the $500 income, and claim a $500 loss.


or bee equipment, bees, or tools, clothing, or rent, power and utilities, yada, yada, yada.

You can claim anything you want on your taxes. Should you get audited you will get an education on the grey areas.


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## snl

Acebird said:


> You can claim anything you want on your taxes. Should you get audited you will get an education on the grey areas.


AND on the not so grey areas!!! What kind of cigarettes do you smoke? That's right, smoking in prison is no longer allowed!

Best bet, get a CPA to do your taxes. The hassle is just not worth it.....


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## Mr. C

Correction, get a good CPA to do your taxes. I ponied up 240bucks 2 years ago (no hobby/business expenditures, just a simple return) and did better myself with taxact, that guy was a waste of money.


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## Kieck

> Or you can just glue 2 boards together ...


Glue, biscuit and glue, plane and glue ... where do you get or how do you make free glue?

I think the spirit of the thread is good -- a beginner could get into beekeeping with minimal expense _if_ that beekeeper was willing and able to 1) put a fair amount of time into scrounging, 2) had some experience with woodworking and metalworking and sewing, 3) was fortunate enough to come by "free bees" (or was prepared and willing to take the risk of cutting some out, but that was or picking up a swarm still leaves some risk as to the quality and nature of the bees one gets), 4) had enough self restraint to not purchase all the other gadgets that go along with getting into beekeeping, and 5) was really determined to not make much monetary investment in beekeeping.

Most beginners can hit a happy medium, I think. Spend enough to buy some equipment and bees, but not buy everything at the beginning.


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## Capricorn

Didn't read all the pages yet, but I wanted to say that I think catching a swarm or doing a cutout is a bit intimidating for someone starting bee keeping. Last year was my third year in the hobby, and I did both of those things. It was great, I decided I would never buy bees again (except if I wanted particular genetics..), but without experience it would be overly intimidating to do those things. A swarm trap (in a nuc or an 8 frame deep or something) might be good middle ground I guess..


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## snl

Mr C....
You went back and redid your taxes using taxact from two years ago and did better yourself? $240 is not bad for a Fed/St return. The CPA pays for software, rent, utilities, (expensive clothing) etc. and is required to attend and pay for required continued education classes yearly......


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## Acebird

Capricorn said:


> Didn't read all the pages yet, but I wanted to say that I think catching a swarm or doing a cutout is a bit intimidating for someone starting bee keeping.


Well, OK. What part of stealing honey from stinging insects was not intimidating for someone starting bee keeping. I admit I have yet to do either catching a swarm or a cut out but what I have read capturing swarms from a tree is the least likely to get stings. Once you hive them and they burn off the honey they consumed the chances go up.


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## Nabber86

Thanks to Barry and quevernick for the woodworking tips. I may have to try that, but I am still looking for an excuse to buy more equipment (woodworking being such a cheap hobby as it is ). 

-------------------

Back to the original point of the thread. I would like to see some data from the honeybee equipment suppliers (Mann Lake, Brush Mnt., Etc.) as to what a typical beginner spends on their hobby. I am sure they track those numbers pretty closely and know the spending habits of their target customers. This is just a complete shot in the dark, but I would bet the initial dollar figure would be right around $500 (cost of a couple of hives and some basic hardware, no frills).


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## Acebird

The people that don't buy equipment will skew your data. You will get typical customer data not typical beginner data.


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## Specialkayme

D Semple said:


> I said I *netted* $5,000


Maybe I wasn't clear in the point I was trying to make, as I'm very clear on what "net" as opposed to "gross" means.

My point was that while you made $5k, you still had several expenses in the process. You did, in fact, spend more than a dime to get there. That is what the topic of this thread was about: spending very little money to start up. You spent quite a bit of money to start up, you just made it back and then some. 



D Semple said:


> Labor don't count - IT'S A HOBBY -


Not when you are doing a profit/loss sheet, or adding up what your "net gain" was.

Hobbies don't involve financial sheets. Side businesses do. Labor counts in side businesses.


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> The people that don't buy equipment will skew your data.


No kidding? I wasnt talking about unquantifiable non-buyers. I was specifically talking about people who buy at a store (or on-line). And there must be a lot of buyers, or the stores would not be in business. 

If you want to talk about skewness and statistics, the amount spent per hobby beekeeper (including buyers and non-buyers alike) is obvioulsy a bell shaped curve. My guess is that complete non-buyers are more than 2 standard deviations to the left. A combination of buying and scrounging what one can is probably right in the middle of the field. 

This whole thread reminds me of talking about gas mileage. When you get a large group of people together in a discussion, there is a natural tendency to inflate mpg numbers. Just as when you get a large group of people together talking about how much money they save by DIY, there is a tendency for exageration (or at least not properly accounting for all costs). 

Anyway after all this, I think we can safely say that NOBODY really keeps bees for free (as you claimed in the first post of this thread).


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## Acebird

And again I didn't claim that but you can see what you want to see as you usually do.


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> It is the only hobby that I know of where you literally do not have to spend one dime to get into.


Must be that reading comprehension thing again. :lpf::lpf:


----------



## Acebird

Specialkayme said:


> Labor counts in side businesses.


In small proprietorships if you don't pay yourself it does not count as a business expense. If you take on employees then it counts. In a hobby it never counts. You may loose interest for not getting paid for your time but that is a different story.


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## Capricorn

Acebird said:


> Well, OK. What part of stealing honey from stinging insects was not intimidating for someone starting bee keeping.


The part where they come all ready for you in a nice screened in box, or in a small nuc hive where all you need to do is transfer frames. 

Cutouts aren't for beginners I don't think at all. You have to remove wild comb and rubber band it into a frame, while dealing with the thousands of stinging insects who think there current home is OK and don't understand why you are tearing it down.

Swarms are (most of the time) great and easy and simple and safe but I believe most beginners would still feel more intimidated by them when they could just pick them up in a pre-packaged box instead.


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## Kieck

I hate to beat a dead horse. I understand the spirit of this thread, and I believe that, given the right person and the right circumstances, beekeeping could be an inexpensive hobby. I disagree completely with the title, "Beekeeping is a very cheap hobby." For most hobbyist beekeepers, it is anything but inexpensive (see comparisons to "cheap," as well). And the flat-out statement is incorrect, I think.



> Anyway after all this, I think we can safely say that NOBODY really keeps bees for free (as you claimed in the first post of this thread). -Nabber86


I think this is fair, as long as readers understand that we truly are not talking about "beekeepers" inclusive of those rare folks who have unmanaged hives living in trees on their property. Such "keeping" certainly is cost-free, but hardly qualifies as "beekeeping" as most of us understand the term.



> And again I didn't claim that but you can see what you want to see as you usually do. -Acebird


Actually, you did. The last line of your original post in this thread read:



> It is the only hobby that I know of where you literally do not have to spend one dime to get into. -Acebird


Powerful statement, but not accurate. Other hobbies certainly exist. And some costs (expenses amounting to at least 10cents, or one dime) go along with every form of beekeeping that I would term "beekeeping."

I like the stimulation of ways to save money in beekeeping from this discussion. Some creative ideas have been suggested here. Not all of them will work for all people; a number of the ideas will not be practical for the vast majority of beekeepers. It has sparked discussion of ways to start less expensively for people who otherwise might not be able to come with the money to buy all their equipment and bees.


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## pascopol

Beekeeping can be inexpensive, or not so, depends on your attitude and willingness to make your own equipment, catching swarms etc.

Anyway I bet than beekeeping in general is much cheaper that such "hobbies" as flying small planes or owning/actively using a boat.

BOAT (Bring over another thousand) 

http://www.zerotocruising.com/bring-on-another-thousand/


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## Luterra

> I find beekeeping to be a very cheap hobby. You almost always get something back even if your bees die. Most hobbies are holes in the ground where you keep pouring money into and very rarely get something of value back other than entertainment.
> It is the only hobby that I know of where you literally do not have to spend one dime to get into.


Acebird, you sure know how to start active threads on here. I have to think you get some sort of high from eliciting so many responses and starting arguments. Every forum has its active members but you are something else - by my count you have 28 posts so far today. 

That said, I'll rise to the bait and offer my perspective. I find beekeeping to be one of my more expensive hobbies. Allow me to explain.

I garden. My yard is free. Seeds cost $2-3 per packet. Basic tools can be had for about $50. Add another $100 for fence, fertilizer, pest control, and irrigation. About $200 for a good-sized garden. In 3-4 months that garden will produce about $200 worth of food of all types, which I eat, sell, or trade. Net expense: nearly zero.

I brew beer. Ingredients for a five gallon batch cost $35. A brew pot is $50 if you don't have one already for something else. A glass carboy, airlocks, and bottle capper will run another $50. So around $100 to start up, averaged over six batches, is $50 for five gallons. That is 50 12-oz bottles, or a dollar a bottle. Cheaper than good beer in the store. Time until beer is ready: 2 months. Net expense: nearly zero, assuming I would have bought the beer anyway.

I have 19 hens. Chicks are $3 each. Feed costs $30 a month. The coop was repurposed from an old shed, with $50 spent on nest boxes. Hens start laying in 5-6 months. I sell extra eggs to friends for $3/dozen, which offsets the cost of feed. Net expense: nearly zero.

I have four beehives. Each hive has four boxes. Each box is $12 for the box, $12, for the frames, and $8 for the foundation. That is $512 alone. Add in four covers and bottom boards for $150. A bee suit is $60. Accessories (smoker, bee brush, hive tools) come to $50. Bees are $90 per package, and throw in an extra $40 for replacement queens. If you want to recoup investment you need an uncapping knife ($30) and a honey extractor ($200 for a simple one). I was lucky to get about a third of my woodenware and the extractor and uncapping knife donated from neighbors, but if you add up those numbers for four hives it comes to $1400. Honey is worth about $3/lb to me, as that's what I pay for it in bulk at the local farmers market. If I assume no honey the first year and 50 lbs/hive/year thereafter, I will break even in 3-4 years, assuming no value for my time as it is a hobby. 

So...compared to my other "homesteading" hobbies, beekeeping is by far the most expensive, with the longest return period and the least certainty of getting a return. Certainly it is possible to spend less by building your own equipment, catching swarms, etc., but unless you have a full shop already that will require buying new (expensive) tools, etc. At the moment I can only afford one hobby as expensive as beekeeping, and beekeeping it is...

Mark


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## Acebird

Capricorn said:


> Swarms are (most of the time) great and easy and simple and safe but I believe most beginners would still feel more intimidated by them when they could just pick them up in a pre-packaged box instead.


Maybe you are right but that doesn't get them the honey. At some point you have to dig into a hive and take the honey away from them or kill them first. Most people don't plan on killing them first so they get over the intimidation part.

I will say cut outs shouldn't be done by the average beekeeper because it involves reverse construction. Technically it would be illegal to do it in our area in most homes because of the new lead paint law.


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## quevernick

I think there has been quite a bit of hair splitting in this thread so far  I agree there is no way that you could start out with absolutely nothing and be able to keep bees for "free". Im pretty lucky in that I have a lot of tools and random junk lying around and know other people with equal amounts of tools and randome junk. I've also never let not knowing how to do something get in the way of doing it. My first swarm retrieval was my first experience actually handling bees. I screwed it up horribly, got stung twice and didnt even get the queen. But I got a little experience and the second time I got the swarm and the after swarm that came out. I did one more swarm after that then got a call for a cutout. I did the cutout and the last time I checked that hive is still alive and well. Im not gonna lie there was a bit of trepidation on that first swarm call but if you want the bees you'll get over it.

Most people seem to be focusing on Langstroth hives in this thread but if you are really looking to start out cheaply then a TBH is the way to go. IMO a TBH is a really good way to go as a beginner. The nature of the hive means you need to check the hive weekly. I know as a beginner I had to stop myself from checking the hives too much. Slapping together a TBH could be done with a hand saw and hammer for tools. Now having said all of that I am keeping my 2 TBH's but I'm probably going to go mostly Langstroth from here on out. They are a bit less work


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## Acebird

Well Mark, maybe we should listen to you about chickens and you should listen to me about bees. I would have to say our eggs cost about 9 dollars an egg and we sell the extras for 2 bucks a dozen but you have to adopt my wife's philosophy about food in general. We got honey the first year, just kill your bees. I learned that without ever talking to a commercial guy.

Is this an argument? If you argue with me you are a fool.

I think there are enough responses in this thread that proves that you COULD get into beekeeping without spending a DIME if one is so inclined. Never did I say anyone can do it.

I am secretly hired by Barry to stimulate Beesource. NOT!


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## sqkcrk

You get out of it what you put into it. If you only spend a dime, I hope you enjoy getting around spending anything more in a creative way.


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## HONEYDEW

Nabber86 said:


> Heck, I have spent over $200 on shipping alone.


 Should have shopped Mann Lake first...:no:


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## Specialkayme

Acebird said:


> In small proprietorships if you don't pay yourself it does not count as a business expense.


I never used the word _expense_ Acebird. I said it "counts." Meaning you can't negate it, and say it doesn't exist.

To deduct it as an expense is an entirely different subject.


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> Maybe you are right but that doesn't get them the honey. At some point you have to dig into a hive and take the honey away from them or kill them first. Most people don't plan on killing them first so they get over the intimidation part.


So you advise beginners to catch swarms instead of buying bees because they are going to have to get over their itimidation at harvest time anyway? In the likely event that a nervous newbee drops a load of bees in his lap (or worse), we are likely to loose a potential new beekeeper to the community. Is that what you want?

I think it is much better (and safer) for a beginner to start down an easier path with a package or nuc, build confidence throughout the spring and summer, and then harvest the honey in the fall. 

BTW - Did your wife buy you your first package, or did she go out and catch a swarm for you?


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## Luterra

> Well Mark, maybe we should listen to you about chickens and you should listen to me about bees. I would have to say our eggs cost about 9 dollars an egg and we sell the extras for 2 bucks a dozen but you have to adopt my wife's philosophy about food in general. We got honey the first year, just kill your bees. I learned that without ever talking to a commercial guy.


We get free wheat berries from a research program at the local university and mix them 1:1 with high-protein layer pellets. Works out to about 19 cents/lb for chicken feed. 

I tried to leave honey for the bees, but they killed themselves anyway and left most of it behind. Oh well, 70 lbs of honey should help kickstart the new season...



> Is this an argument? If you argue with me you are a fool.


Why, because you have endless perseverance?


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## xcugat

This is all a bunch of hypothetical who--ha if you ask me--most things are technically possible* but not that probable *

Posts should be more informative rather than argumentative like this thread Ace--

So far I learned:

Birdwatching is expensive
Someone will pay me to use their equipment and wood and show them how to make a hive and I get to keep it
Cheap and Inexpensive are different things
Time has no monetary value to build all of my "free equipment"
Bees are swarming in the trees like grapes waiting to be harvested 

..and thats just the half of it
Lets have more specific technique driven discussions perhaps they would be more informative and maybe productive instead of hypothetical minutiae


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## divemaster1963

If you already have that kind of skill and equipment, how much have you spent on your woodworking shop already? quote.

I hate to tell you I built my 20x25 shop from pallets. and reclamed metal roof. I have a total cost of 125.00 in it


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## divemaster1963

Nabber86 said:


> So you advise beginners to catch swarms instead of buying bees because they are going to have to get over their itimidation at harvest time anyway? In the likely event that a nervous newbee drops a load of bees in his lap (or worse), we are likely to loose a potential new beekeeper to the community. Is that what you want?
> 
> I think it is much better (and safer) for a beginner to start down an easier path with a package or nuc, build confidence throughout the spring and summer, and then harvest the honey in the fall.
> 
> BTW - Did your wife buy you your first package, or did she go out and catch a swarm for you?


Personnelly I belive the best way to introduce new beeks is to offer them a starter hive and then work with them and their hive and mine to share the joy of bee keeping. That is what I did with my friend. and he now has 17 hives. 

john 

showing and teaching is a hands on experance (that is what beekeeping should always be about.) passing on the love of our hobbie.

john


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## divemaster1963

quevernick said:


> How do you like the chainsaw mill, I've been thinking about building one.


It is great but a little slow. I built mine from a discarded rack used to transport hunting stand on atvs. I removed the atv mounts got 8 inch 3/4 alltread from a shop that suts off the excess from brake boosters for trucks. I drilled and taped the ends and welded flat metal to frame. used 2 nuts on each to mount to frame. drilled bar to run bolts threw and into altread. whalla perfect level cuts on each pass.
I cut 1 1/4 inch slabs and dry then plane to 3/4.

john


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## sqkcrk

divemaster1963 said:


> Personnelly I belive the best way to introduce new beeks is to offer them a starter hive ...
> 
> john


For free?


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## xcugat

I think it should actually cost something as then there is some tangible outlay of something-- a vested interest--not a tremendous amount but enough that they show concern rather than a "whatever attitude" But I agree the best way to get people involved and learn is through mentoring them as long as it is not hand holding ie call me after you have read a beekeeping manual and come up with a possible diagnosis than we can talk productively


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## Specialkayme

sqkcrk said:


> For free?


Lol, well, if you wanted _the best way_ that would probably be it. Not really too practical though. And I don't have the funds to support such an effort (although, if everything was free . . . ).

NC State did a program like that, were 10 people got free hives, free equipment, and free bees if they would take an intro class. I don't know how it ended up, ie if they kept keeping bees after a few years . . .


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## sqkcrk

Did they pay for the intro class? Or was that subsidized?


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## Specialkayme

It was subsidized.


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## sqkcrk

Now that's what I call getting into beekeeping w/out spending a dime. I wouldn't have thought of NC as a Nanny State.


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## Acebird

Specialkayme said:


> NC State did a program like that, were 10 people got free hives, free equipment, and free bees if they would take an intro class. I don't know how it ended up, ie if they kept keeping bees after a few years . . .


Our club has a beginner course for $5 and they give away a hive to one of the students that attended all the classes. There is more money in the coffers then ever before so we talked about getting more equipment and raffling it off. I don't understand the mind set of "granny state". Even if the person gives up the hobby some beekeeper will end up with the equipment. If just sounds like sour grapes to me and deep down you really don't want to promote the hobby.


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## Mr. C

In answer to a comment several pages back on CPAs, they didn't have to pay for software since they did a paper return. They worked out of their house (my wife's preparer she used for years retired and reccomended him), so probably saved money by claiming it as a home office (I hope they did better on their own then they did mine). When I used taxaxt the next year I found stuff they missed that I would have caught using the software for under 50bucks. I don't remember the exact loss, but it was a couple hundred bucks, So without refilling I would have paid 240 instead of <50 and made a couple hundred less. That means I was out about 500bucks by using them. I'm not saying that 240 is too high for a CPA, but it was too high for this one because it cost me money. If you have nothing but a simple return (which at the time I did) it's easier/cheaper to do it yourself imo.

My chickens have been my most inexpensive investment so far since I already I had coup and lots of acreage for them to freerange. My bees almost cost me as much as my garden this year. Those packets of seeds add up (at least $700 so far this year and I buy a lot through a great co-op). Then theres the 8ft deer fence around 2acres... the orchard, the 68" rototiller I just bought, flower bulbs for my wife...

We've got a little CSA running this year and will head to market so we're hoping to at least break even all together this year.


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## divemaster1963

I used the word Free figurativly. The person has to have a real interest in beekeeping. and I get most of the honey the first year will they are learning. if they decide that it is not a hobby for them I now have a alternative location for a couple of hives. I am using this now with 2 sites. they have the desire but not the personal time to tend the hives so they let me leave them there and they let me know of any problems between my inspections.


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## psfred

Free? Ha, I just bought a $50 dado set to save $20 on boxes....

Turns out I can buy 1x8s at the local Lowes to make boxes for about $7 a box (or less, I've not priced the 12 ft ones yet) compared to $11.50 plus shipping from Kelleys (or more likely, driving down there). 

So I'm about $30 in the hole so far! Of course this doesn't at into account that my brother and I both want more hives, will be building some screened bottom boards, need more supers, and I want at least three nuc boxes plus probably some swarm traps, I have friends that keep bees and will be happy to let me make boxes for the cheap, etc.

The dado blade set will get plenty of other use as well, though.

Peter


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## Hawkster

If I buy an old 1948 Ford pickup to use as a "bee truck" and then spend way too much tricking it out does that go against my beekeeping hobby or my new antique truck hobby from an accounting perspective ?


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## Specialkayme

Hawkster said:


> If I buy a ... 1948 Ford pickup ... and then spend way too much tricking it out does that go against my beekeeping hobby?


I think we may have gotten as far off topic as possible . . . .


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## Rather-b-beekeeping

I reckon cheap is relative, but I haven't exactly found it to be a "cheap hobby" ...........LOL!


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## beyondthesidewalks

You can make any hobby as cheap or expensive as you care to. You can scrounge used equipment or play high dollar for Rolls Royce equipment. Compared to other hobbies, beekeeping has the advantage of a payback. Not many hobbies do. The biggest payback IMO is the hours of enjoyment I get watching the bees. When I've had a hard day at work and the bees are flying, I stop my truck in the driveway and go sit in front of some of my hives. Seems to make all that crap go away and gets me in the right frame of mind to hit the front door. I cannot put a price tag on that.


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## Hawkster

> You can make any hobby as cheap or expensive as you care to./QUOTE] exactly, my facetious post was my feeble attempt at pointing that out  if its a hobby how much you spend depends on how much you want to spend and where you draw the line as to what is related to the hobby. A bee truck, wood working tools etc etc. if you added them all together and said this is what beekeeping costs me then it would be a very expensive hobby indeed... who would have thought AceBird could get 11 pages of responses from his post


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## Acebird

My last hobby was gasoline remote control helicopters. Bare minimum for getting into this hobby was $2600 without fuel to run it. I gave it up due to lack of skill to really fly them because crashes typically run 600-800. There is no way you can get into remote control anything for cheap. Although I built a fleet of airplanes out of paper cardboard there were quite economical.


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## Hawkster

It is all relative, if its a hobby by definition you can afford it or you wouldn't be doing it.


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## Acebird

Hawkster said:


> if its a hobby by definition you can afford it or you wouldn't be doing it.


I wish that were true. Unfortunately in the last hobby I witnessed a man bragging about buying a $500 plane when his wife needed a cloths washer fixed. I wanted to smash him but I kept my cool. Thankfully I don't see any of that in the beekeeping world.


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## Hawkster

well the assumption is that you make rational decisions not everyone does


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## Mr. C

There is a distinct danger of spin-off hobbies unfortunately. I started keeping bees in part as a spinoff to my gardening (my wife let me put a fence around the garden so I couldn't expand past 2 acres, talk about expensive there goes 5k). A desire to save money led me to build equipment... which has got me into a little woodworking, so far it's just been bee gear and trim for the house... but now my wife is talking about adding a second kitchen and I'm looking into cabinet making. In order to pay for the first hobby we started a CSA... now we're supposed to start farmers markets for honey... My initial "hobby" is snowballing into a second and third job. thank goodness I still enjoy all three of them, or was it four?


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## Acebird

Just so you know there is a slight difference between making bee hives and kitchen cabinets unless the wife is very supportive.


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## Gypsi

Not that much difference Ace. Especially if you are competing with big box store cabinets, which I consider junk. Nice cabinet plywood is what, $20 a sheet, birch veneer plywood is $40 a sheet, and compared to cutting notches for box corners, I'd rather build a cabinet any day. (and I don't own a tablesaw)

I know what you mean about spinoff hobbies Mr. C. My first hobby spun off a business, didn't pay too well but let me work at home when my kids were young. Second hobby spun one off that has fully supported me for the last 10 years, and adjacent to it, the bees kinda moved in the back door. The $1000 I spent fencing the bee-yard was the biggest expense, but then as long as I was getting bees I quadrupled the size of the garden last year. And I've dropped the lowest paying part of hobby 2 to have time for the bees, but I am having so much more fun...

Gypsi


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## beyondthesidewalks

The fun is the most gratifying part of beekeeping to me more so than any monetary return.


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## Mr. C

It's really not all that far off, just more expensive a little more exacting (though I'm pretty persnickity about my beeboxes). I just built some cupboard doors in January for some storage cubbies I added in my upstairs remodel. Similar types of joints to what I use to make inner covers. I try to avoid plywood if I can with the exception of some 1/4" for the door faces and back wall. There just cupboards, not a fancy dresser or anything. I live in a remodeled (many times) farm house, if it wasn't simple and sturdy it'd be out of place. Shoot my dad built the knotty pine cupboards in our current kitchen when I was a kid with crappier tools than I own. If I can come close to what he did I'll be happy.


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## cg3

I spend most of the rest of my time doing finish carpentry and I find the high tolerances of bee equipment exhilarating. For me, one big appeal of the whole hobby is the gadget making.


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## Acebird

Mr. C said:


> If I can come close to what he did I'll be happy.


If you are doing something for yourself everything is wonderful. If you are doing it for someone else the expectations are something different. When you get to the point where someone else will wait for you to be available you are pretty good.


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## Mr. C

That'd be a loooong wait if I ever got that good, you'd understand if you saw my to-do list. It includes an entire side of a house that is just framed and insulated, and that part of the list hasn't even made it on the radar yet.


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## Riverratbees

I get ti if you steal everything that is the only way you don't have to invest any money. One thing is for sure he has no clue what he is talking about DUMB___! If you can't explain yourself you are a fool just another idiot, or a thief!!!!


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## jarodmorrison

I actually started a blog last fall about cheap beekeeping. You can get the equipment you need for around $60 and the wooden ware for langstroth hives will set you back about $150, but you'd have enough to have several nucs and 5 deeps. But if you went with top bar you could do it much cheaper. I caught 2 swarms on my front porch last year (my first year) using copy paper boxes I brought home from work. You could do it cheaper than this, but time is money as well, so each person has to weigh the resources they have on hand and the time they have avaliable to determine what is worth the time to make and what you're better off just ordering. But I'd have to agree, that if you're a handy person with lots of scrap material and ingenuity you could get into it for close to nothing. Not sure why everyone is getting so fired up about this? Http://cheapbeekeeping.wordpress.com

For those who are talking about home brewing being expensive, I present to you http://skeeterpee.com. It's not beer, but it's cheap to make and it's very refreshing after working your bees on a hot summer day!


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## mac

Acebird said:


> I find beekeeping to be a very cheap hobby.
> It is the only hobby that I know of where you literally do not have to spend one dime to get into.


 You can hunt for free if ya can through a rock. You can fish for free all the tackle ya need can be found in the trees at a popular fishing spot. Gardening can be done for free just plant what sprouts in your compost pile. But ya still have transportation to contend with. THERE AIN’T anything free in this world. I’m just saying


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## beyondthesidewalks

jarodmorrison, you really ought to credit beesource and DCoates for the cheap 5 frame nuc on your blog. What you've done could be called plagiarism or just downright stealing IMO.


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## lazy shooter

My wise old pappy was fond of saying, "every thing is paid for." That doesn't mean it's paid for in dollars and cents.


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## Acebird

jarodmorrison said:


> Not sure why everyone is getting so fired up about this?


It's me. If someone else had posted this topic it probably would of only lasted a couple of pages. Instead there is a lot of negativity amongst some good posts. Just read the good posts and move on. Thanks for yours.


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## sqkcrk

It's not you, it's your statement. Perhaps you would like to say what you meant in a different way? One which folks would take less of an issue with?


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## Acebird

I think people have lost sight of or do not realize I did not chose the wording of the title and beesource does not allow editing of the title. It is a clip from another topic created by Barry.
On any forum people should try to understand what other people are trying to convey not spend effort twisting what other people have not said correctly. We are not all English majors even though some people would like it that way.


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## tommyt

sqkcrk 
I agree 
Ace most times you disagree,too Agree,only too explain why you don't need to agree with the disagreement :applause:
However you always stand behind your statements,even when your right

I will say that Dumpster Diving as a hobby is a fairly cheap one
and with this type hobby 
It may help Cheap Beekeeping

IMHO 
Tommyt


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## BeeCurious

To suggest that one can become a hobby beekeeper for 10¢ or less seems to be inaccurate.

Charcoal sketching would be an inexpensive hobby but sticks of charcoal cost more than a dime, and then there would be the paper. 

Acebird,

It doesn't matter if you copy and paste ... you picked the words that you post.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> I think people have lost sight of or do not realize I did not chose the wording of the title and beesource does not allow editing of the title.


I have very little argument against the Thread Title. That's just a pov kinda thing. But, you said something in your original post about how one could get into beekeeping w/out spending one thin dime. Quite a bold statement.

In the future maybe you aught to choose your own Thread Titles?


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## quevernick

If the statement of contention is that you could get into beekeeping without spending one dime then I in fact did get into beekeeping without spending a dime. Now after my first hive I did spend more than a dime. But my first hive was a TBH put together from a fence and hardware that was lying around. I got the bees from a swarm call. Now granted the hive didnt survive (I didnt get the queen). As has been beaten to death on this thread it wasnt technically free since I did spend quite a bit of time on building and grabbing the swarm but I did not actually spend any money on it. Now since then I've bought a shop vac, screws, and some sugar but thats the extent of my beekeeping expenditures. 
I think the statement that you could get into beekeeping while spending less than 10 cents is completely plausible. You would need to have tools and material lying around. You would also need to do quite a bit of work to make it possible. Is it common or even a good idea, probably not.


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## Acebird

I know others like yourself that have done it. I didn't do it but the statement is correct as a HOBBY because your time is not something you pay for. People go around in vehicles and pick up stuff left on the side of the road to be disposed of. It is considered FREE even though you had to drive and pick it up. Some may consider it a bold statement, I do not.


----------



## BeeCurious

Where I live the selection of roadside bee equipment is limited. 

It seems like ages since I last saw a hive tool or smoker along the road. 

Having said that I'm keeping an eye out, hoping to find a double deep hive, a deer-cart and a set car ramps, lost from another thread...


----------



## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> people should try to understand what other people are trying to convey not spend effort _*twisting *_*what other people have not said correctly*. We are not all English majors even though some people would like it that way.


I dont think there is any twisting of your words there, Ace. To quote yourseld for the nth time in this thread: 
"_*It is the only hobby that I know of where you literally do not have to spend one dime to get into. "

*_Must be that reading comprehension thing again?! :lpf::lpf:


----------



## Nabber86

quevernick said:


> I think the statement that you could get into beekeeping while spending less than 10 cents is completely plausible.


Well then I guess we should define the term "get into". One certainly could "get into" keeping bees in a paper bag for less than a dime. For a while anyway. Maybe we should also define "a while". How far is that dime going to take you?

I could just as easily say that I "got into" saltwater aquaria for free because I read the Reef Forum everyday (and provide plenty of comments and advice even though I dont own a reef tank).


----------



## quevernick

Man do you guys like to split hairs  I give you an example of starting out in beekeeping and you compare it to keeping bees in a paper bag. My TBH is definitely not a paper bag. In fact it is still in service and in fact has bees in it that I didnt pay a dime for  In fact I was paid to take them.


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## sqkcrk

Nabber86 said:


> I dont think there is any twisting of your words there, Ace. To quote yourseld for the nth time in this thread:
> "_*It is the only hobby that I know of where you literally do not have to spend one dime to get into. "
> 
> *_Must be that reading comprehension thing again?! :lpf::lpf:


In a fashion, not literaly, you don't have to spend a dime. You do have to spend a lot more than that, whether the monetery outlay is a little or a lot.

At one time, being "into" something meant "having a great interest in". I guess one could have great interest and even knowledge of beekeeping only from reading books at the library and spending time on the internet w/out spending a dime.


----------



## Acebird

quevernick said:


> Man do you guys like to split hairs


Unfortunately it is an annoyance that you have to deal with from certain people. They don't like being proven wrong. Just let them throw their rattle and carry on. They can't do any harm.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> Unfortunately it is an annoyance that you have to deal with from certain people.


I couldn't agree more, I think... 

Mind if I quote you on that?


----------



## Acebird

No, go right ahead.


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## Specialkayme

Acebird said:


> They don't like being proven wrong.


That is very much a two way street.


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> I find beekeeping to be a very cheap hobby. You almost always get something back even if your bees die. Most hobbies are holes in the ground where you keep pouring money into and very rarely get something of value back other than entertainment.
> It is the only hobby that I know of where you literally do not have to spend one dime to get into.


Just curious if any new, 2012 hobbyists would like to add their 2¢ to this thread...


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

This is a very long thread, so I am doing a public service in providing one of the highlights below. 

This is Acebird's response to other posters challenging his assertion that beekeeping can be done *without spending any money*.



Acebird said:


> I did not say I didn't spend any money, I said it could be done. And I know people that have done it for years. What bugs me is when you join a club or take a class and they come out with that laundry list like you just posted saying this is what you got to have.
> 
> To answer your question, nothing. *My wife pays for everything.*


----------



## odfrank

Don't mud wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it.


----------



## GLOCK

Well in the last 3 years i got 7000.00 in this hobby and have got 200 pounds of honey for myself.
But i now have 15 strong hives going into winter so if things go good this winter i'll have a good spring .
My first year only had 2 hives and i lost both to not knowing anything so the seconed year I got three northen breed nucs and they made it throught the winter and i made 16 hives out of the three this year so not alot of honey but i learned how to do splits/ hive a swarm and make queens .
I never joined a club so everything i learned on my own with BOOKS/INTERNET/MAGS./HANDS ON/ i thinks it's worth every penny to me.
I just finshed there wind break on my number 2 apiary there good for winter now.

























I love my bee's


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## sqkcrk

Got bears their GLOCK?


----------



## lazy shooter

I didn't get into beekeeping to make a profit. I am well north of a thousand bucks. Three mature hives, three large nucs, and enough spare equipment to make a couple of nucs next spring or summer. It is my hope to be able to give honey to my friends and some charities in my area. There may be a tax benefit, but that is not known at this time. 

Now as far as getting into beekeeping free: It may be possible, but I seriously doubt it. This is a matter of someone engaging their mouth way far ahead of their brain. Also, for all of you get into beekeeping on the super cheap, it seems to take a lot of time. Is your time not valuable. Even WalMart will pay you minimum wage for your time. If one is talented enough to make equipment from scrap materials, they have enough skills to make and sell other products. Let's all "fess up" and admit their are no freebees. 

As my old pappy said, "everything is paid for." I will add, that it may not be paid for with money, but it is still paid for.


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## Acebird

lazy shooter said:


> Now as far as getting into beekeeping free:


It is hard for you people to insult me without insulting the people that have done it. Me I could care less. I equate people who spend their time throwing insults on a public forums as non thinkers. My concern is that it will deter other people from sharing ideas.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> I equate people who spend their time throwing insults on a public forums as non thinkers.


What does that say about the *insulting *comment you made last night in the Virginia Beekeeper Meeting thread. You remember, your comment was so insulting it was deleted by _Barry _as *nonsense*.

Acebird's deleted post is in this thread, between post #65 and #66.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275228-Virginia-Beekeepers-Ass-meetng-advice/page4

Of course as its deleted, you can't read it, but I did do a screen capture before it was deleted, just in case its needed to refute Acebird's denial.


----------



## lazy shooter

Acebird said:


> It is hard for you people to insult me without insulting the people that have done it. Me I could care less. I equate people who spend their time throwing insults on a public forums as non thinkers. My concern is that it will deter other people from sharing ideas.


So, who has gotten into beekeeping with a zero investment?


----------



## rhetoric

I got into bees without spending "one thin dime." 

I told people I might be interested in keeping bees. We had chickens and people mocked us about it and said, "What's next?" And I said, "Maybe bees." My son-in-law was friends w/ an elderly man who used to keep bees and when he found out I was thinking about it, he gave my son-in-law a box and frames and lid (and everything) to give to me. Then somebody told me there was a swarm at church. Another friend at church loaned me his veil and I got a 5 gallon bucket and swept the hive (in a tree) into the bucket, took them home, poured them into the hive, and walla -- I got into beekeeping without spending one thin dime. In fact, I didn't even have to make a special trip to get the bees -- we were on our way home from a graduation ceremony and we already had all the gear in the trunk. 

Oh, I've spent a bit of money since, but I got into beekeeping for free.

[And if you want to argue that there was, in fact, an investment (time, opportunity cost, etc.) then I think that misses the point. You can spend lots of money if you want to -- but you don't have to.]


----------



## rniles

Acebird said:


> Most hobbies are holes in the ground where you keep pouring money into and very rarely get something of value back other than entertainment.


I've spent some money on bee equipment - and I haven't any bees yet. But I do agree with your post. For bees, I'll probably spend more than someone who knits. I don't know but it is sure less expensive than Photography, spent quite a bit there and that's just to start out. Then there is instrument making ..wood, tools, spent lots there. Beer making ..spent a bit there too but what a wonderful return. Wine making too. And gardening ..I love gardening but am always spending more than I make from it.

Bee keeping might just give me the best return as a hobby.


----------



## BeeGhost

Acebird said:


> Me I could care less. I equate people who spend their time throwing insults on a public forums as non thinkers. My concern is that it will deter other people from sharing ideas.


You really should read what you type Acebird. Are you exempt from your own thinking??? Your concern is that it will deter other people..........good gosh man, 99% of your posts would deter ANYONE from keeping bees. When someone shares an idea you are the FIRST one to swoop in and belittle the person saying "it wont work, you should have done this or that." The funnier thing is when that person does build the project and it works like a charm, you STILL say it wont work or you come up with some stupid antic.

Acebird, if you abided by your own thought process, you MIGHT be tolerable................but until then, you are just going to keep being known as the village.........................i'll leave it at that. 

And I bet you would care very much about what half these people think about you and what stuff spews from your mouth if someone knocked on your door one day and confronted you face to face...........I bet you would cower like a dog that got caught on the dinner table. You hide behind a keyboard because the internet is the only social life you have, period. 

I could easily hit the ignore button and not see a single post you make, but I am not going to sit idle and watch someone like you act the way you do and not say something. Im going to be all over you like a spider monkey.


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## lazy shooter

Rhetoric is the first among our members to get into beekeeping without spending, "one thin dime." But you have to admit it is highly unusual that someone will give you bee equipment, and then out of the blue comes a swarm, and another fellow is there saying "do you want to borrow my veil." Don't get me wrong, I am not questioning that all this happened. In fact, I'm quite sure it did. But, it is one heck of a coincidence. If one is waiting for all those events to fall into place to get into beekeeping, in almost all cases he will be cold in the ground without bees.


----------



## crofter

I have helped my son a fair bit over two years putting together the gear and bees for nearing 40 hives. Bear fences at both our places. Shed at his yard to secure spare frames etc. Have built quite a few of the boxes and all the bottoms and covers. It has not been cheap. If you have endless time to devote and the tools and knowledge and can get your bees out of the trees for free, you can get together the wherewithal to say you are a bee keeper hobiest and spend very little.

That said, I think it is pure entrapment to suggest to someone that bee keeping is commonly a cheap hobby to get into. The truth of it for the majority is that it is a way to pay for the worlds most expensive honey! 

That kind of blarney has to rank with convincing someone that reloading their own ammunition will save them a lot of money! Boy, I should be a millionaire with all the "would be" cheap endeavors I have undertaken!
Some of them have been a whack of fun though.


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## lazy shooter

Crofter:

I ditto you last post. And, yes, I am one of those reloaders. Reloading was akin to the beekeeping, the more I did the more tools I wanted. But, there is a good possibility that in the long haul beekeeping will pay its way.


----------



## sqkcrk

rhetoric said:


> Oh, I've spent a bit of money since, but I got into beekeeping for free.
> 
> [And if you want to argue that there was, in fact, an investment (time, opportunity cost, etc.) then I think that misses the point. You can spend lots of money if you want to -- but you don't have to.]


And all things come to those who wait, if they don't starve first.


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## GLOCK

sqkcrk said:


> Got bears their GLOCK?


We are in BLACK BEAR country never had one at my hives but i've seen them in the past on my land and i'm not taking any chances don't want to have to eat bear meat for a year plus i don't like it.
As far as investment i'll get all my money back one day i own a restaurant and have bee pics on my counter and all my customers can't wait to buy my honey .
I garden also and grow garlic and i set globes of it in a big boul on the counter and make around 300 dollars a year and that pays for al my gardening needs so i guessing the same will happen with the beekeeping and if not i just don't care i love my bee's .


----------



## cg3

GLOCK said:


> i own a restaurant and have bee pics on my counter and all my customers can't wait to buy my honey.


Sweet


----------



## Daniel Y

Since first seeing this thread and the claim. I have sort of set out to see if it can be done. I have since built 3 double deep hives and 4 5 frames nucs as well as a hogan trap out and they did not cost me a dime. not for frames or anything. I now have 4 hives populated with bees 3 of which I got the bees free by trapping them. I have actually made more progress since I switch to a cost free method of getting bees than I did when I was trying to find money to buy things.

Buyign bees and equipment I got one hive and 1 5 frame nuc of bees and had no consideration of getting more. when I switched to catching swarms and trapping out bees I filed 3 hives in about 4 weeks time and have since made 4 more hives in anticipation of the bees I will have.

In the end I am dong better at no cost beekeeping than I am at buying my way through beekeeping. Sugar still costs money though. But I was actually surprised. I am sure that a lot of it had to do with my particular circumstance. I am also just as certain that if I keep putting the time and energy into letting others know I capture swarms. trap out bees or do cut outs that I will have more bees than I can use. In fact I need to find buyers for two hives next spring as it is. Selling those two hives could result in me recouping 100% of my cash costs for this entire year. Including my jacket, veil, smoker and other tools. That would in fact result in completely free beekeeping.


----------



## sqkcrk

No matter whether you account for what you invest in your endevor or not, you will get out of it what you put into it.


----------



## BMAC

hats off to you if you can sell your two hives. How many hours did you spend making the frames? Being it cost nothing how did you hold the frames and boxes todether? Are these foundationless hives?


----------



## BeeCurious

rniles said:


> snip
> For bees, I'll probably spend more than someone who knits.


Help is probably on its way! I would assume that Ace has some knowledge of knitting and he will most likely be offering some cost saving suggestions...


----------



## Acebird

lazy shooter said:


> If one is waiting for all those events to fall into place to get into beekeeping, in almost all cases he will be cold in the ground without bees.


I have read countless posts suggesting people should wait. Wrong time of the year, haven't read enough books, need help, many reasons for holding off, even getting the right equipment. The topic I was trying to get across is that you don't have to through money at this hobby if you are patient, have some skills and are willing to spend time instead of money. I thank Rhetoric for his post because it is exactly my point. The key word here is HOBBY.


----------



## Daniel Y

BMAC said:


> hats off to you if you can sell your two hives. How many hours did you spend making the frames? Being it cost nothing how did you hold the frames and boxes todether? Are these foundationless hives?


The frames really don't take much time depending on how you do it. frames. It took me about 3 hours spread out over a week to make 100 frames.

No foundation and I am not sure I will be using it again. So far I am so small scale I am looking at crush and strain to harvest anyway. Otherwise the cost of foundation would be comparable through the roof. I think at this time I look at foundation from a fairy unique perspective in that it really has to be justified. And so far I am not completely convinced it is. When I was spending $100 here and $100 their foundation made complete since. But now that it is the primary cost of a hive. It is not looking so desirable.

I don't intend to remain cost free. I plan more of a roll over type of situation though. sell honey. wax. hives etc and then turn that money back into the bees if needed. So foundation can very well be part of the equation.

But then the statement was not that you can keep bees at a low cost. it was that you can get started at low cost. And I believe I have proven that in fact you can start with no cost at all.

When I set out to start a hive at no cost. I did so. not only once but three times. I don't plan to remain in that test. I don't think you can keep bees at no cost. Btu you can start a hive at no cost, I have proven it.


----------



## mac

Daniel Y said:


> I now have 4 hives populated with bees 3 of which I got the bees free by trapping them.


How much did ya pay for nails, car, gas, ato insurance did ya use a hand saw table saw lights electricity paint ???


----------



## Daniel Y

Actually I was paid and pretty well for that mater to own the nails glue etc. That payment woudl more than cover the cost of gas etc. 

The vehicle I use I don't pay for. In fact I get paid to use it. If you consider the pay I receive for owning the hardware and the use of the vehicle. including being paid for the time I gathered the scrap lumber. It offsets any electrical use. But I don't consider any of those expenses in owning hives anyway. I think it is fairly reasonable an obvious that expenses in owning bees would be money spent for the express purpose of keeping bees. That I put gas in a vehicle because my life requires I have a vehicle with gas in it. does not get added to the cost of keeping bees. If I put $40 worth of gas in a vehicle to drive to Sacramento to pick up some bees. that would count as cost of keeping bees.

Even for those that disagree. If I actually broke it down cent by cent. in all I was probably paid to make this equipment.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

BeeCurious said:


> Help is probably on its way! I would assume that Ace has some knowledge of knitting and he will most likely be offering some cost saving suggestions...


I almost fell over laughing! :lpf:

And since Acebird seems to do very little actual _research _for his "_improvements"_, here is a head start on cheap knitting!
http://kiwiyarns.wordpress.com/2010/07/20/is-knitting-cheap/


----------



## lazy shooter

Well, Daniel Y makes two beekeepers that got into their hobby without spending "one thin dime." It makes one wonder, how many prospective beeks have a free car and hardware to produce bee equipment?


----------



## lazy shooter

My hat is off to Daniel Y and Rhetoric. They both have the health, skills and tools to produce beekeeping equipment, and the knowledge and ability to capture wild swarms. Out of 171 viewers to this thread there are at least two such people. That equates to there being 11 people in each thousand with these special circumstances. 

So you meet someone wanting to become a beek. What do you tell them? You could mention to them that they could build all the required equipment and catch a swarm, or they could sit down with a Mann Lakes catalog, order a starter hive kit, and look for the most local bee packages and nucs for sale. Out of necessity, almost all of them will be ordering from Mann Lakes or another such supplier.

Daniel Y and Rhetoric are the ultra exception to the rule.


----------



## Nabber86

rhetoric said:


> I got into bees without spending "one thin dime."
> 
> My son-in-law was friends w/ an elderly man who used to keep bees and when he found out I was thinking about it, he gave my son-in-law a box and frames and lid (and everything) to give to me. Then somebody told me there was a swarm at church. Another friend at church loaned me his veil and I got a 5 gallon bucket and swept the hive (in a tree) into the bucket, took them home, poured them into the hive, and walla --


Yes, and I can get into NASCAR without a dime, if somebody would just give me a car, lend me a racing suit, and provide sponsership.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

lazy shooter said:


> Daniel Y and Rhetoric are the ultra exception to the rule.


Well, Daniel Y admits to spending money to get started:


Daniel Y said:


> Buyign bees and equipment I got one hive and 1 5 frame nuc of bees and had no consideration of getting more. when I switched to catching swarms and trapping out bees I filed 3 hives in about 4 weeks time and have since made 4 more hives in anticipation of the bees I will have.


So while it appears that he feels he has recovered the money he initially spent, he did spend money to get started.

So the ratio suggested by _lazy shooter_ is currently at 5.5 viewers per thousand.


----------



## Nabber86

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, So the ratio suggested by _lazy shooter_ is currently at 5.5 viewers per thousand.



I think the margian of error to account for people not being 100 percent truthful would push that down to something closer to 4 people per thousand.


----------



## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> The key word here is HOBBY.


You should add that to the "cheap" and "dime" tags....


----------



## Acebird

lazy shooter said:


> Daniel Y and Rhetoric are the ultra exception to the rule.


People today buy everything out of convenience. A while back everybody made everything out of necessity. I wonder if Brother Adam ordered everything out of the Mann Lake catalog?


----------



## oblib

While I must agree that it could be done for free, I don't think even 1 in 1000 would do it. Just too much of a pain in the butt from scrounging wood to trying to make a veil from some left oveer rotten window screen in the back of the garage. You would also need to have all the tools needed to make all your equipment.

I happen to have all this stuff and if forced to do it I could/would but, I have already have bees and know I like it. I just can't see many ever starting out this way. Doing it on a low budget yes, but for nothing? No


----------



## beefast

LOL.....we must not beee in the same hobby 
:no:


----------



## crofter

Hey you guys that are looking forward to beekeeping without spending a dime should give this a think. There are plans around to make a 200 mile per gallon carburetor for your vehicle. Get this operational first cause otherwise the beekeeping for free won't fly!


----------



## Nabber86

Daniel Y said:


> The frames really don't take much time depending on how you do it. frames. It took me about 3 hours spread out over a week to make 100 frames.


1.8 minutes per frame? Does that include the time spent fashioning the frame pieces from the free wood that you find?

You must be some sort of wizard.


----------



## xcugat

This thread should just be closed--

For anyone who stumbles on it here is a recap:

Beekeeping *can* be a very cheap hobby, if all your wood, time and bees are free, otherwise, _*for most beginners*_ it is going to cost some initial money outlay, which if all the equipment is new and someone can correct me if I am wrong on this, around 250 for a full hive set up plus 75 for a package so around 325 a hive to start. Lets try to keep things real here for the new bees please. Threads on here should offer pratical information and tips, not a semantics lesson or a discussion of the amount of seconds to build each frame etc. The mods should make a new section called the *rumpus room* where people can argue about minutiae all day long.


----------



## lazy shooter

crofter said:


> Hey you guys that are looking forward to beekeeping without spending a dime should give this a think. There are plans around to make a 200 mile per gallon carburetor for your vehicle. Get this operational first cause otherwise the beekeeping for free won't fly!


Hey Crofter, you rang a bell with the above comment. I remember back in the 70's there were people, supposedly educated people, that thought that there was a carburetor that would produce 100 mpg or more. The story was that the guy who invented it sold it to the major oil companies,and they would never allow it go public. Dang, I wish I had one.


----------



## Daniel Y

Nabber. It doesn't take a lot of time per piece when you make a lot of them. production work reduces time per piece drastically.

a top bar is 3/4 inches thick 1 1/16 inches wide and 19 inches long. What is the fastest way to cut 1X material to these dimensions? Should you cut pieces of 1X19 inches long first or cut 1X material to width first? Does it matter?
Actually it depends on what equipment you have. If all you own is a table saw it is really not going to matter much. In my case I have both a table saw and a radial arm saw. set up correctly I can make both cuts in only a few seconds per frame. I make the width cut on the table saw first. I make the length cut on the radial arm saw with a stop block set at 19 inches. The reason I do it this way is that I can use the table saw for as long as it takes to cut 1900 inches of 1X material total length. Or I can use it to make 100 19 inch rips. the radial arm saw is hands down faster at cutting to length that the table saw. I can in fact make 100 cuts on the radial arm saw in less than half the time I could make 100 cuts on the table saw.

Basically it is knowing how to use a shop to it's best advantage. And their really is a reason to own al these different saws.

In like manner with the proper equipment nearly all the cuts in a frame can be made in just a few seconds. It is partially a matter of having the right saw. having the creativity to figure out how to feed the wood through it and being able to set up jigs. blocks and stops so that making each cut is a matter of how fast you can drop the next piece in place.


----------



## Nabber86

Did you figure the cost of your table saw and radial arm saw into the cost of your hobby, or did you get those for free too?


----------



## ralittlefield

Daniel Y said:


> I can in fact make 100 cuts on the radial arm saw in less than half the time I could make 100 cuts on the table saw.


That tells me that you may not have your table saw set up to your best advantage.

To cross cut with a radial arm saw each cut requires that both the saw and the material be moved. With a table saw you move only the material. The table saw should be at least as fast as a radial arm.



Daniel Y said:


> Basically it is knowing how to use a shop to it's best advantage. And their really is a reason to own al these different saws.


Does it take more time to set up one machine twice than two machines each once? It's still two set ups. Also even if they are in close proximity, you have to move the material to a different location in the shop, however small that move is.


----------



## GLOCK

xcugat said:


> This thread should just be closed--
> 
> For anyone who stumbles on it here is a recap:
> 
> Beekeeping *can* be a very cheap hobby, if all your wood, time and bees are free, otherwise, _*for most beginners*_ it is going to cost some initial money outlay, which if all the equipment is new and someone can correct me if I am wrong on this, around 250 for a full hive set up plus 75 for a package so around 325 a hive to start. Lets try to keep things real here for the new bees please. Threads on here should offer pratical information and tips, not a semantics lesson or a discussion of the amount of seconds to build each frame etc. The mods should make a new section called the *rumpus room* where people can argue about minutiae all day long.


I figuerd mine to be around 400 ahive maybee alittle more but thats my set up and i'm inculding my table saw beeyards {2 one 300sqft with stone and fenced and one 650sqft stoned and fenced with eletric / suits{3}{one ultra breeze}/ Jacket/ smoker a shed to put my bee stuff a frezzer to put frames i could go on.I think you should have some cash going into bee keeping makes for a nice hobby.My strart up bee cost was almost 1000.00 that was for 2 package bee's my frist year 3 nuc's the next year and 3 nuc's this year i now have 15 strong hive's in my bee yards and i never have to buy bee's again.


----------



## sqkcrk

lazy shooter said:


> Well, Daniel Y makes two beekeepers that got into their hobby without spending "one thin dime." It makes one wonder, how many prospective beeks have a free car and hardware to produce bee equipment?


Or someone who pays you to do your own thing on their time using their vehicle. What do you do for a living Daniel Y? Does your employer know and approve of your extracurricular activities while on the clock?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

sqkcrk said:


> What do you do for a living Daniel Y?





Daniel Y said:


> I work for the State of Nevada ....


Note, I didn't realize until recently that the little blue "double arrow" in the quote box was actually a link to the original quote. So that's why I have not provided a stand-alone link to the original comment by _Daniel Y, _you can just click the blue arrow to see the original post.


----------



## Nabber86

I guess if I was employed by the State, I could run around picking up bee gear on the taxpayer's dime. Wonder how thin that dime would be?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

I have been mining Google Search for interesting quotes from older Beesource threads.



Daniel Y said:


> I work for a University ...


Would that be the University of Nevada? :scratch:

Here is some of the University of Nevada vehicle use policy:


> It shall be unlawful for any individual, individuals, or groups of individuals, whether an employee or employees of the State of Nevada or not, to use any automobile, truck, or other means of mechanical conveyance, property of the State of Nevada, for their own private use.
> 
> http://www.unr.edu/administrative-m...s/university-services/5100-vehicle-use-policy


Of course, it _may not _be the University of Nevada that is the employer in this case. One would hope so, at least ...

Keep in mind there is not much on the net that is not crawled by search engines. And what you post can come back to bite you.


----------



## sqkcrk

That's for sure. If there is ever an investigation into Daniel Y's vehicle use you can be sure there will be an internet search which will lead to what is Posted on beesource.com. You may wish to delete those Posts Daniel.


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## Nabber86

I had better stop reading/posting at work.


:ws:


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## sqkcrk

As if you didn't know that already.


----------



## JRG13

Maybe he's a maintenance guy, who really cares. I don't classify him as starting beekeeping for free, because, well, quite frankly he didn't. The only way he was able to expand for 'free' was all the knowledge he acquired by buying his first hives and becoming a part of Beesource and some other factors that allow him to produce equipment and being paid for having all the tools necessary. Everyone doesn't fall into this category so the point is moot but Daniel deserves some credit in accomplishing that.


----------



## Daniel Y

sqkcrk said:


> That's for sure. If there is ever an investigation into Daniel Y's vehicle use you can be sure there will be an internet search which will lead to what is Posted on beesource.com. You may wish to delete those Posts Daniel.


You make some pretty broad assumptions. Mainly that I am doing anything wrong. do a present myself somehow with a guilty conscience? Who is it I am to be concerned about reading my post. The same people that have me take materials that they want to their vehicles?
It is trash, nobody cares what happens to it.


----------



## Daniel Y

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I have been mining Google Search for interesting quotes from older Beesource threads.
> 
> 
> 
> Would that be the University of Nevada? :scratch:
> 
> Here is some of the University of Nevada vehicle use policy:
> 
> 
> Of course, it _may not _be the University of Nevada that is the employer in this case. One would hope so, at least ...
> 
> Keep in mind there is not much on the net that is not crawled by search engines. And what you post can come back to bite you.


Do you seriously think I don't know the policies of a place I have worked for for 25 plus years? Really? You assume I violate them. OF course my boss that helps me drop things of at my house doesn't seem to think so. the bosses that I tell I am running something to my house don't think so. So I guess now I should get all worried about what you think?

The University also has a policy that you cannot eat in your office or classrooms. Last week this became an issue so I did a walk through of 10 offices. 9 out of those ten had food thrown in the garbage cans the one that did not had not been to work the previous day. I have know this to be the reality of that no food policy in the entire time I have worked their. So much for policy.


----------



## ralittlefield

Daniel Y said:


> Do you seriously think I don't know the policies of a place I have worked for for 25 plus years? Really? You assume I violate them. OF course my boss that helps me drop things of at my house doesn't seem to think so. the bosses that I tell I am running something to my house don't think so. So I guess now I should get all worried about what you think?
> 
> The University also has a policy that you cannot eat in your office or classrooms. Last week this became an issue so I did a walk through of 10 offices. 9 out of those ten had food thrown in the garbage cans the one that did not had not been to work the previous day. I have know this to be the reality of that no food policy in the entire time I have worked their. So much for policy.


Regardless of who ignores or violates policy, it is still policy. I can't help wonder if this post is symptomatic of the reason for so much waste/abuse in government.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> Do you seriously think I don't know the policies of a place I have worked for for 25 plus years? Really? You assume I violate them. OF course my boss that helps me drop things of at my house doesn't seem to think so. the bosses that I tell I am running something to my house don't think so. So I guess now I should get all worried about what you think?


I'll take your word for it that you are aware of the policies of your employer. After 25 years you certainly should know the rules! But since your employer is a State agency, those rules have the force of law.

Violating State law makes one a criminal, regardless of how many of your fellow employees also violate the law. Not only that, but you are admitting it in a public forum, and in effect, saying you don't care who knows about your illegal activities involving State of Nevada property. :no:

I am not concerned about what *you *think about what I posted. Obviously, I was aware when I wrote it that you would not be _pleased _about the links. I provided links to your past posts to assist *other *Beesource members in evaluating your mindset in light of some of your posted comments earlier in this thread, and in particular, your ridiculous and outrageous comments on the _Sandy _[storm] thread.

:digging:


----------



## Acebird

Daniel Y said:


> So I guess now I should get all worried about what you think?


No Daniel, when you have a person who looks to berate individuals on a forum they get tired of just one individual and look for more victims to harass. The last thing you should do is worry about these little people. They are really harmless.


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## Daniel Y

ralittlefield said:


> Regardless of who ignores or violates policy, it is still policy. I can't help wonder if this post is symptomatic of the reason for so much waste/abuse in government.


Vehicles are an exception to nearly every other piece of equipment owned by the university. Which can be used for personal use. That means they can be taken home over night or the weekend and used to landscape your own yard. build an addition to your house. widen your driveway etc. But you can't borrow a state truck to help your sister move for example. This is the reason for this policy and how in fact it is enforced.

They are in fact used every day by multiple employees that are at work to drive several miles across town to buy lunch at burger king for example. This is not considered a violation of the acceptable use policy. Never has been.


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## BMAC

You should consider yourself lucky to have such flexibilities in your place of employment. I have worked many years in federal service and it is unlawful for us to use government vehicles for personal use (except while in TDY status). Only then are we allowed to use vehicles for running to stores or fast food places. 

Personally I would view it as misuse and abuse of tax payer funding. Then again Most of nevada taxes are paid for by the gambling industry isnt it? I suppose if thats the case I probably wouldnt much care either.


----------



## Daniel Y

BMAC, At the university it is not usual that people are able to park close to where they work. It is standard to have to park and walk 4 to 5 blocks to the office or shop.

Because of this is it standard practice for employees that use vehicles to park their car, walk to the shop get their work vehicles. return to their car and retrieve items. It is also common practice and almost policy that if an employee leaves mid day say for a doctors appointment that they are driven by a co worker to their vehicle. I have on many occasions actually picked co workers up at their homes and driven them to work. some of them a few miles from the university.

I happen to live 2 blocks from my shop. Closer than most that drive to work can park. So if it no big deal for an employee to drop something off at their person vehicle. it is also no big deal that I drop it of next to my driveway. So a bit of geography comes into play.

It is near policy to pick employees up when necessary because the safety of our employees is above all else where I work. Individual situations determine if such measureless are necessary. But I will say it is not uncommon for the university to think it is. case in point. a person openly and in broad daylight was harassing females on campus. we had one female employee that had to walk through that same area every morning to get to work. I spent the next two months picking her up at her door and driving her to the shop.

Today we will have a meting at 8 a.m. one of our employees will have to travel 20 miles to get to that meeting. It will be my job after that meeting to drive him home. At 8 when that meeting starts i will be by law due for my first break of the day. I will not get it. I will not get it when the meeting ends as I will have a 40 minute round trip drive to make. I will not get it when I get back because frankly I don't care if I get it. So it is a two way street. we have a job to do and we do it. if that means I work 4 hours non stop so be it. if it means my employer gives me an old book shelf so I can make beehives so be it. It doesn't always work like that and there are rules that have to be followed. But it is not anything like a dominating you have to do this or that place to work at all. Very Lucky, yes I am.

Yes I am fortunate that I work for an employer that truly puts the employee and their well being first. And if I want beehives. that employer does what they can to help me get them. in fact they are on the watch for more colonies for me as well. They ask how my hives are doing, they also keep asking about any honey I have. I don't know what that is about.


----------



## BMAC

Maybe you have intriqued them to think about having a University bee yard.


----------



## Barry

OK, this has gotten off topic and has nothing to do with beekeeping.


----------



## sqkcrk

Nabber86 said:


> I guess if I was employed by the State, I could run around picking up bee gear on the taxpayer's dime. Wonder how thin that dime would be?


As an Apiary Inspector, as I was, had I anything other than the necassary tools and forms to do my job I could be fired. No picking up of swarms for an Apiary Inspector. I don't think I ever saw any anyway.


----------



## mac

Acebird said:


> It is the only hobby that I know of where you literally do not have to spend one dime to get into.


If ya spend $.02 on electricity and sell your hive fore $1000.00 ya still SPENT $.02 before ya made the sale ya just recouped your expenses after the sale. Picky picky picky. And fishing can be done without spending any money.


----------



## mac

Bee keepers will argue about anything


----------



## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> As an Apiary Inspector, as I was, had I anything other than the necassary tools and forms to do my job I could be fired. No picking up of swarms for an Apiary Inspector. I don't think I ever saw any anyway.


"Tax payer's dime" is a key phrase here.

It is one thing for an employer to allow personal use of vehicles _after hours_, it's is another thing to use the vehicle _while on the clock_.


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## sqkcrk

It was my own vehicle, but I was paid by the State for its' use. Conflicts of Interest could not exist, nor the appearance of COI. This was drummed into us each new employment season.


----------



## BMAC

Mark,

When you say the vehicles use was paid for by the state do you mean they paid you X per mile or actually granted fuel card, and paid percentage of oil changes, repairs, etc...?


----------



## sqkcrk

I got a per mile compensation for vehicle use. It complied w/ the Federal Standard. As did Motel and Meals Expense Reimbursement for overnight travel expenses.


----------



## Acebird

mac said:


> If ya spend $.02 on electricity and sell your hive fore $1000.00 ya still SPENT $.02 before ya made the sale ya just recouped your expenses after the sale. Picky picky picky. And fishing can be done without spending any money.


Borrow a five spot from a friend. Sell your hive for 300. Give your friend a ten spot and keep the rest. Now what did it cost you to start?


----------



## sqkcrk

What did you spend the $5.00 on? No beehive I have ever seen or would want to pay $300.00 for. Not that there are any beehives I would ever spend $300.00 for.

It cost $5.00 and a Profit of $295.00 was realized. 

Plus, when has that ever happened? Can we live in the real world? Write about real world experiences, not fantasy or imaginings?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Borrow a five spot from a friend. Sell your hive for 300. Give your friend a ten spot and keep the rest. Now what did it cost you to start?


You risked a _friendship_. How much is that worth?

If your hive dies, you have no $300 sale. Any you can't pay back your friend. :no:


----------



## JRG13

Acebird said:


> Borrow a five spot from a friend. Sell your hive for 300. Give your friend a ten spot and keep the rest. Now what did it cost you to start?


Apparently at least $5.


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You risked a _friendship_. How much is that worth?
> 
> If your hive dies, you have no $300 sale. Any you can't pay back your friend. :no:


Sure you can, you borrow another five from another friend.


----------



## rhetoric

As a new bee keeper I guess this thread has taught me that while bee keeping CAN BE an affordable hobby, it can also be quite expensive. It has also taught me that beekeepers can be an argumentative and grouchy bunch of know-it-alls. 

If I had decided, "Today, I'm going to start keeping bees," it would have been expensive, but this tightwad was patient. And a few months after I got my hive started on the cheap, I saw an ad on Clist for "free beekeeping gear." I got probably 10 deeps w/ bottoms and piles of supers, 6 or so telescoping tops and hundreds of wooden frames and a capping knife for free. But yes, eventually I also bought some plastic foundation and a new hive tool and eventually my own veil and gloves. I bought some new hive supers too and some queen excluders. At first I borrowed my church pal's extractor, but found a A.I. Root extractor on clist for $50.00 the other day. He threw in two unopened boxes of comb honey boxes for $5.00. And using most of that used gear I now have 4 hives, having split the original (I bought a queen for $20.00 or so and I'm pretty sure it died -- but they requeened!) and I caught two big swarms. 

Of course, this is a hobby for me, so I don't really mind spending a few bucks here and there. Sorta like deer hunting -- it may cost $20.00 a pound for venison, but it's worth it. Still, so far I feel pretty good about my expenses to pleasure ratio.


----------



## jim314

rhetoric said:


> Of course, this is a hobby for me, so I don't really mind spending a few bucks here and there. Sorta like deer hunting -- it may cost $20.00 a pound for venison, but it's worth it. Still, so far I feel pretty good about my expenses to pleasure ratio.


Well said. Actually $20/lb may be a little understated in my case


----------



## BeeCurious

Here are two recent comments concerning the costs of beekeeping. Perhaps some new beekeepers would like to share their opinions. 




Michael Bush said:


> It is an expensive addiction...






Acebird said:


> As a hobby, beekeeping is dirt cheap.




I would agree, beekeeping is an addictive hobby. And it's not cheap unless someone else is buying the equipment for you...


----------



## sqkcrk

Some comments can stand alone w/out anyone else's comments. What one says says something about the person saying what they say.


----------



## BeeCurious

sqkcrk said:


> Some comments can stand alone w/out anyone else's comments. What one says says something about the person saying what they say.


I was asking for "opinions" from newbies.


----------



## GLOCK

I have 11000.00 wraped up in this hobby but i'm going to sell honey this year and nucs next year.
plus i'm now honey independent and bee independent what a great feeling knowing i don't have to buy either .
Money does not matter to everyone .
Plus i have great bee yards and alot has been learned beekeeping is worth every penny .:thumbsup:


----------



## snl

It can be if managed right & you don't mind selling some of your products (bees, honey, etc)..


----------



## sqkcrk

BeeCurious said:


> I was asking for "opinions" from newbies.


Oh, Sorry.


----------



## D Semple

BeeCurious said:


> Here are two recent comments concerning the costs of beekeeping. Perhaps some new beekeepers would like to share their opinions.
> 
> I would agree, beekeeping is an addictive hobby. *And it's not cheap unless someone else is buying the equipment for you..*.


Or you find a quick way to turn a profit.

I have made money from day one by doing cutouts and catching swarms. 

Try doing that with golfs. :shhhh:


----------



## Acebird

GLOCK said:


> I have 11000.00 wraped up in this hobby but i'm going to sell honey this year and nucs next year.


I think if you have 11 grand into beekeeping your goal is beyond a hobbyist. Whereas if you were into RC helicopters you might not have enough for a camera ship. One three second mistake can cost you more than half your investment.


----------



## Nabber86

BeeCurious said:


> ...it's not cheap unless someone else is buying the equipment for you...


Ha. I just had a guy buy 4 hives for me and is paying me to keep bees on his land. 

I have also been building some of my woodenware and catching swarms, but I am still about $1,600 in the hole from my oringinal hive/colonies that I have purchased over the last sereral years. A couple more of good harvests and I should break even in another couple of years. 

Not counting the recent windfall: 

Bee suit an initial ancilary gear = $230
Woodenware (5 hives - some I made myself from purchased wood) = $1,200 
Nucs (3) = $235
2 queen bees = $100
Shipping costs for on-line purchases = $150
Plastic honey bottles = $70 
Sugar for feed = $100
Oxilic acid and fumagator experimentaion = $50

Total (at least) = $2,135
Honey sold to date (~100 pounds at $5 a pound) = $500

Now I know a bunch of people will chime in on how they find scrap lumber on the side of the road (probably next to their dinner) and have a wood shop and tools so all of their wooden ware is free, but i would say my numbers are pretty typical (+- a couple of hundred dollars) for a hobbiest with 4 colonies.


----------



## JRG13

Looks like it Nabbers. I think two select grade deeps, migratory top, bottom board cost me just under $60. Frames and supers probably push it close to $200 per hive, not including screws and paint.


----------



## Nabber86

Dont forget the 3 honey supers with foundation and frames will add another $114 per hive.


----------



## Acebird

Tell us what hobby you were ever in that you broke even.


----------



## Steve zone 5 WI

Being new to beekeeping this year:

My wife and I have spent probably the better portion of $1500 (estimate). This is for a used 4 frame extractor and enough wood to build 4 hives set up with two deeps and 4 supers each. two bee suits, foundation ect.....

We could have done this on A LOT less money had I put my mind to it. Sometimes the checkbook comes out for convenience. 

I have easily spent 1000 on each one of our 5 vintage snowmobiles. I will never see 1/2 of that back! If the bees don't work out for us I think we can get our money back out of the extractor, suits. The hives themselves probably wont bring any money as I would be a bit leery buying used hives. Even it it turns into a money pit. The most important thing is....... We are having fun!! 

Thanks Steve


----------



## GLOCK

Acebird said:


> Tell us what hobby you were ever in that you broke even.


Gardening i set a bowl of garlic globs on my counter at my restaurant and i sell around 600 ayear {i grow 2000} thats 300.00 at .50 people love it .
Sames going to happen with my honey his coming year as long as things work out . I will get my money back one day i'm sure if i'm a good beekeeper.


----------



## Daniel Y

I am days away from completing my first year. And I believe it can go either way. What I do not believe is that beekeeping is easy.

I started with one colony. A 5 fame nuc in a cardboard box for $100. I now have 10 colonies. I have never paid for any other bees than those first ones. As of now. ! colony was purchased. 2 came from colonies started from a cut out with bees having brood added to them. Two more have come directly from cut outs and 4 where swarm captures. Only one swarm is a dud so far and has been re queened from a better colony. So as of now average cost of a colony of bees is $10 each.

Hive boxes bottom boards, inner covers outer covers etc.
This has also been a mix although I do tend to purchase materials more often due to urgency. Not having bees does not create an urgency but getting a call to do a cut out when you know you have no more bottom boards. well choices have to be made and you can't wait for the scrap of plywood to show up any longer. I made my first 5 deep boxes bottom boards for three hives as well as the inner and outer covers for the same from scavenge wood. I also made 4 deep 5 frame nucs with bottom bards inner and outer covers form scrounged wood. I can manage to do this as long as it is well before any equipment will be needed. But when things start hoping. Home Depot is the answer. So I have also purchase materials for 4 bottom boards inner and outer covers and 15 med boxes. That has been in the past few weeks. I have twice made frames for my boxes, but they are extremely tedious and time consuming so I will just as often buy them as make them. All this making of stuff also includes the fact I own a wood shop. Which was not cheap. but that issue can be addressed in various ways at little or even no cost.
In all I woudl say I have between $300 and $400 spent on wooden ware. and a total of 8 hives and 2 nucs or an average of about $50 per hive. The hives vary form a deep and a med to a 3 deep 2 med.

Medications. Any way you go I think you are goign to pay. You can be treatment free and you are still goign to pay for some of the IPM sort of measures used. I don't tend to do a mountain of treating but I do feed pollen patties and spent about $200 farting around with OA vaporizers. I am not sure if I call that beekeeping expense or just playing around expense.

Personal equipment. Veil, jacket, suit, gloves smoker, hive tool bee brush and you can add anythign esle on their you want. This is actually probably my single largest beekeeping expense. Btu I am also outfitting three people. So three jackets to of them ultra breeze types. two smokers, two hive tools, a frame tool and I am not sure what else. In all I would say I have over $500 in just gear.

Running a close second to gear is processing equipment. when it is all said and done. keeping the be sis only about half the cost. Once all your hard work and dedication pays off with all that honey. you get to price extractors and such. I think it is at this point that many people realize why beekeeping does not pay. Yes you can if you will do the work and be patient, find deals. But I looked for nearly a year and did not come across any. I read about them form others. $60 extractors on craigs list. Honey collection pots or pumps. uncapping machines or whatever. I eventually paid full price for an extractor and it comes very close to the $500 of gear. at $400 plus. If you add the crush and strain garbage I got last year I think I actually top that $500. 

So for me it can be cheap if I take the time to keep it cheap. but it takes a lot of time and means missing many opportunities. Buying everything gets expensive quick but allows me to be more relaxed and enjoy beekeeping more.

Btu above all beekeeping is not a matter or expensive or cheap. it is a matter of get through. It is a challenge ad the cost gets lost in the effort to meet that challenge.

Can beekeeping be cheap? Yes, Will it? I doubt it.


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## WBVC

I wouldn't say getting started is cheap..at least for us. Cheaper than the boat, lift tickets and horses but not cheap. Four of 5 hives are made from lumber we had on site. The frames were cut from 2x4s and set up as foundation less. I made the protein patties (still cost and nearly killed my good mixer), had to buy in sugar and essential oils. The bees were purchased ~$185/hive. If we had been paid for wood work labour and had had to buy the tools then the home made hives would have cost more than the 2 deeps with foundation that I purchased. We still have to have a means of getting the honey IF there is any left for us. 
For me the fun is the bees themselves...the honey will simply be a bonus

The thing that is hopeful is that the equipment should last for years and if the bees don't die we may eventually to get more hives from splits.


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> Tell us what hobby you were ever in that you broke even.


 Competition BBQ. I have made a profit doing that. Although sponsorship has helped, I still make a profit. 


Funny your comment considering you where the one early on in this thread that said you can be a beekeeper without speeding a dime. If you can be a beekeeper and not spend a dime, all you have to do is sell a single jar of honey and voila, you just made a profit.


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## sqkcrk

Nabber86, sounds like a business and not a hobby the way you describe Competitive BBQ. Actually I think that's one way tghge IRS determines if something is a hobby or a business, if profit is made.

"all you have to do is sell a single jar of honey and voila, you just made a profit."? I don't think so. Profit is what is left over after investments and debt are taken care of. Otherwise I wouldn't fill out a Profit or Losss from Farming each year, just the profit part.


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## Nabber86

Daniel Y said:


> I am days away from completing my first year. And I believe it can go either way. What I do not believe is that beekeeping is easy.
> 
> I started with one colony. A 5 fame nuc in a cardboard box for $100. I now have 10 colonies. I have never paid for any other bees than those first ones. As of now. ! colony was purchased. 2 came from colonies started from a cut out with bees having brood added to them. Two more have come directly from cut outs and 4 where swarm captures. Only one swarm is a dud so far and has been re queened from a better colony. So as of now average cost of a colony of bees is $10 each.


You did enough swam captures, cutouts, and splits to get 10 colonies in less than a year (first year, at that) of beekeeping? That sounds like..... uh....... 
.....you must be an awesome beekeeper.


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## sqkcrk

You actually read his whole Post? I'm impressed. I often wish I had learned to speed read.


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## bilder

I am just getting started, but so far I have a little over 50 bucks invested.


Lang hive and assorted gear (smoker, tool, veil)- free from guy who was getting out of beekeeping and wanted it out of his garage.

Top bar hive- free made from scrap lumber

Bees- free from swarm captures

Bee jacket- $25

Extra Deeps and Medium- $18 (factory seconds from Shastina)

Gloves- 12 bucks.

Epipen- Covered by insurance, no out of pocket expense.

Sugar- 4 dollars so far

I am sure I will spend some more cash as time goes on, but if you are good at scrounging stuff up or making your own, then you can do it on the cheap. I am cheap because I simply cannot afford to buy all the stuff for my hobbies. I usually end up doing my hobbies the hard way, but it keeps me busy and out of trouble.  Beekeeping is easy compared to making your own ham radio gear.


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## rwurster

Nabber86 said:


> ... Now I know a bunch of people will chime in on how they find scrap lumber on the side of the road (probably next to their dinner) and have a wood shop and tools so all of their wooden ware is free, but i would say my numbers are pretty typical (+- a couple of hundred dollars) for a hobbiest with 4 colonies.



Sounds about right. I turned my neighbor's furniture into hives and frames, demolished a few buildings and turned them into hives and frames (top-bottom boards too) If you have the money or means and it enriches your life...  Making money never hurts either


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## Acebird

Nabber86 said:


> but i would say my numbers are pretty typical (+- a couple of hundred dollars) for a hobbiest with 4 colonies.


People smoke that up each week in tobacco and that doesn't even cover the cost of healthcare to the rest of the country that is not smoking.
As far as I am concerned when you put up a for sale sign you are outside the endeavors of a hobbyist and more like a moonlighter not paying taxes for business like activity.

Glock, most people that do gardening as a hobby put much more into the ground then they get out. That is why most people don't have vegetable gardens. I can actually say the money that my wife spent on beekeeping was a gardening expense. The money that we have spent on keeping bees past the original purchases is laughable as a hobby. It doesn't even affect the gardening budget anymore.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> I can actually say the money that my wife spent on beekeeping was a gardening expense.


This will be helpful for newbies concerned about the costs of equipment and bees. They just need to consider the expense differently. 

I have to admit that I never thought of this... "Garden Expenses" is a nice category. Buying beekeeping equipment from the "Groceries" account seems logical too. The "Education" fund could be dipped into as well, but only if the expense can be justified... ["Is our beekeepers learning?"] 


So "Dirt Cheap" Beekeeping does exist, but mostly as an accounting trick.


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## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> So "Dirt Cheap" Beekeeping does exist, but mostly as an accounting trick.


BeeCurious, are you a hobbyist or not?

Hobby accounting and business accounting have always been quite different. I wouldn't call it a trick.

"Dirt cheap" is a comparison between one hobby "bee keeping" to most other hobbies.


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## Daniel Y

Acebird said:


> Tell us what hobby you were ever in that you broke even.


penturning. I could if I put in the effort turn this one into a business.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> "Dirt cheap" is a comparison between one hobby "bee keeping" to most other hobbies.


There are a great number of non motorized and non flight hobbies that are much cheaper than beekeeping. How would you rank "Beekeeping" compared to the following :


Aircraft Spotting
Airbrushing
Airsofting
Acting
Aeromodeling
Amateur Astronomy
Amateur Radio
Animals/pets/dogs
Archery
Arts
Aquarium (Freshwater & Saltwater)
Astrology
Astronomy
Backgammon
Badminton
Baseball
Base Jumping
Basketball
Beach/Sun tanning
Beachcombing
Beadwork
Beatboxing
Becoming A Child Advocate
Bell Ringing
Belly Dancing
Bicycling
Bicycle Polo
Bird watching
Birding
BMX
Blacksmithing
Blogging
BoardGames
Boating
Body Building
Bonsai Tree
Bookbinding
Boomerangs
Bowling
Brewing Beer
Bridge Building
Bringing Food To The Disabled
Building A House For Habitat For Humanity
Building Dollhouses
Butterfly Watching
Button Collecting
Cake Decorating
Calligraphy
Camping
Candle Making
Canoeing
Cartooning
Car Racing
Casino Gambling
Cave Diving
Ceramics
Cheerleading
Chess
Church/church activities
Cigar Smoking
Cloud Watching
Coin Collecting
Collecting
Collecting Antiques
Collecting Artwork
Collecting Hats
Collecting Music Albums
Collecting RPM Records
Collecting Sports Cards (Baseball, Football, Basketball, Hockey)
Collecting Swords
Coloring
Compose Music
Computer activities
Conworlding
Cooking
Cosplay
Crafts
Crafts (unspecified)
Crochet
Crocheting
Cross-Stitch
Crossword Puzzles
Dancing
Darts
Diecast Collectibles
Digital Photography
Dodgeball
Dolls
Dominoes
Drawing
Dumpster Diving
Eating out
Educational Courses
Electronics
Embroidery
Entertaining
Exercise (aerobics, weights)
Falconry
Fast cars
Felting
Fencing
Fire Poi
Fishing
Floorball
Floral Arrangements
Fly Tying
Football
Four Wheeling
Freshwater Aquariums
Frisbee Golf – Frolf
Games
Gardening
Garage Saleing
Genealogy
Geocaching
Ghost Hunting
Glowsticking
Gnoming
Going to movies
Golf
Go Kart Racing
Grip Strength
Guitar
Gunsmithing
Gun Collecting
Gymnastics
Gyotaku
Handwriting Analysis
Hang gliding
Herping
Hiking
Home Brewing
Home Repair
Home Theater
Horse riding
Hot air ballooning
Hula Hooping
Hunting
Iceskating
Illusion
Impersonations
Internet
Inventing
Jet Engines
Jewelry Making
Jigsaw Puzzles
Juggling
Keep A Journal
Jump Roping
Kayaking
Kitchen Chemistry
Kites
Kite Boarding
Knitting
Knotting
Lasers
Lawn Darts
Learn to Play Poker
Learning A Foreign Language
Learning An Instrument
Learning To Pilot A Plane
Leathercrafting
Legos
Letterboxing
Listening to music
Locksport
Lacrosse
Macramé
Magic
Making Model Cars
Marksmanship
Martial Arts
Matchstick Modeling
Meditation
Microscopy
Metal Detecting
Model Railroading
Model Rockets
Modeling Ships
Models
Motorcycles
Mountain Biking
Mountain Climbing
Musical Instruments
Nail Art
Needlepoint
Owning An Antique Car
Origami
Painting
Paintball
Papermaking
Papermache
Parachuting
Paragliding or Power Paragliding
Parkour
People Watching
Photography
Piano
Pinochle
Pipe Smoking
Planking
Playing music
Playing team sports
Pole Dancing
Pottery
Powerboking
Protesting
Puppetry
Pyrotechnics
Quilting
Racing Pigeons
Rafting
Railfans
Rapping
R/C Boats
R/C Cars
R/C Helicopters
R/C Planes
Reading
Reading To The Elderly
Relaxing
Renaissance Faire
Renting movies
Rescuing Abused Or Abandoned Animals
Robotics
Rock Balancing
Rock Collecting
Rockets
Rocking AIDS Babies
Roleplaying
Running
Saltwater Aquariums
Sand Castles
Scrapbooking
Scuba Diving
Self Defense
Sewing
Shark Fishing
Skeet Shooting
Skiing
Shopping
Singing In Choir
Skateboarding
Sketching
Sky Diving
Slack Lining
Sleeping
Slingshots
Slot Car Racing
Snorkeling
Snowboarding
Soap Making
Soccer
Socializing with friends/neighbors
Speed Cubing (rubix cube)
Spelunkering
Spending time with family/kids
Stamp Collecting
Storm Chasing
Storytelling
String Figures
Surfing
Surf Fishing
Survival
Swimming
Tatting
Taxidermy
Tea Tasting
Tennis
Tesla Coils
Tetris
Texting
Textiles
Tombstone Rubbing
Tool Collecting
Toy Collecting
Train Collecting
Train Spotting
Traveling
Treasure Hunting
Trekkie
Tutoring Children
TV watching
Ultimate Frisbee
Urban Exploration
Video Games
Violin
Volunteer
Walking
Warhammer
Watching sporting events
Weather Watcher
Weightlifting
Windsurfing
Wine Making
Wingsuit Flying
Woodworking
Working In A Food Pantry
Working on cars
World Record Breaking
Wrestling
Writing
Writing Music
Writing Songs
Yoga
YoYo
Ziplining
Zumba


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## James Burke

When anybody ever asks me "....Is there much money in beekeeping", I always tell them yes. It just flows the wrong way, though.

Joking aside, there is money to be made. It takes a little bit of business savvy and a whole lot of hard work. Believe me, people are always willing to pay good money for a quality product when administered with large doses of excellent service. 

JB


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## Acebird

Quite a list BC I would eliminate all the sport related topic as a hobby. Many of the things I am not aware of and might bore me to death. Most of the list that I can identify with is much more than Beekeeping. At least that is my experience.


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## Jack London

First year beekeeper here - I've already spent several hundred dollars. I wanted to use a top-bar hive but they are illegal in my state so I've been forced by law to use a Langstroth.


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## Rader Sidetrack

> I wanted to use a top-bar hive but they are illegal in my state so I've been forced by law to use a Langstroth.

I can certainly believe that someone may have _told _you that top-bar hives are illegal in Alabama, but after reviewing relevant Alabama code, here:
http://statutes.laws.com/alabama/Title2/Chapter14
it seems unlikely that TBHs are indeed in violation of Alabama law. If you still want TBHs, I suggest that you get them to cite the relevant section of Alabama code that says TBHs are illegal. Certainly combs must be inspectable, but TBH combs are just as easily inspected as Lang frames.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> I find beekeeping to be a very cheap hobby. You almost always get something back even if your bees die. Most hobbies are holes in the ground where you keep pouring money into and very rarely get something of value back other than entertainment.
> It is the only hobby that I know of where you literally do not have to spend one dime to get into.


Bump


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## bassbee

I have to agree with ace to a point. I have spent probably $2500 the past 3 years of keeping bees and I feel that I have probably broke even now. As long as you maintain your hives and take care of your equipment you will eventually make your money back and then some. I am also a avid hunter and have spent thousands over the years and will never see that money again. Beekeeping is a great hobby and one that you can share your return with others


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## labradorfarms

I am new but ... Its anything but cheap....... With 2 hives, tools, clothing, Bee Packages, sugar and so onnnn.. If I had to guess id say . I have spent about 700 bucks......

but to some people 700 bucks may be pocket change.


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## labradorfarms

I never heard that before..... There are people in my Bee club from Bama and they have top bar hives..... One was a past president of the ABA.


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## Nabber86

bassbee said:


> I have to agree with ace to a point. I have spent probably $2500 the past 3 years of keeping bees and I feel that I have probably broke even now. As long as you maintain your hives and take care of your equipment you will eventually make your money back and then some. I am also a avid hunter and have spent thousands over the years and will never see that money again. Beekeeping is a great hobby and one that you can share your return with others


I am about $2,500 in the hole too and have sold about $800 worth of honey to off-set that. Like many hobbies, it is nice to recover some of the money, but I am not counting on making a profit, or even breaking even.


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## marshmasterpat

Only have about $500.00 spent so far and that includes the paint, nail, and junk,. Have 6 hives currently and have several more lined up to grab. I have met my goal to have 1/2 dozen hives by the end of my first year, and I am just 7 months into this. Having fun:thumbsup:


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## Nabber86

marshmasterpat said:


> Only have about $500.00 spent so far and that includes the paint, nail, and junk,. Have 6 hives currently and have several more lined up to grab. I have met my goal to have 1/2 dozen hives by the end of my first year, and I am just 7 months into this. Having fun:thumbsup:


Sweet. Good job! I assume that you are doing your own wood work? $500 for 6 hives is pretty cheap.


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## phersbees

I was payed $200 to get my first hive $150 for the 2nd and countless free swarms. used scrap to make box from loc sawmill. . brother works at stamping shop so metal to cover is free. most of the cost for me is frames for 99cent so like 10 buck a box nails power and wear on tools time and gas. but its the most fun I ever had doing anything. cant buy that


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## Lauri

Old posts...come back to haunt you. Makes me laugh and cringe at the same time.


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## Nabber86

Lauri said:


> Old posts...come back to haunt you. Makes me laugh and cringe at the same time.



Yup, I have many old posts that make myself cringe. I am happy with bees, dispite all the difficulties. As long as I am having fun, thats all that matters. It still make it cheap enough to keep me happy.


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## grozzie2

BeeCurious said:


> There are a great number of non motorized and non flight hobbies that are much cheaper than beekeeping. How would you rank "Beekeeping" compared to the following :
> ...
> Astronomy


Beside astronomy, beekeeping doesn't even register on the cost scale. I've got 10 hives out back, and equipment for 25 more in the garage. At brand new retail prices, that adds up to less than 25% the cost of my telescope, without even counting the mount, camera, filter wheel and filters. Then to really push the point home, astronomy is a 'his and hers' hobby here, my wife has an equivalent set of gear.

We moved onto a new place last fall, and are working it into 'what we want' over the next two years. After the observatory is built out on the back acre, and we have 40 hives scattered around it, my best guess is bees will cost about 10% of what astronomy costs.


But it's all relative, I've had this discussion with astro folks in the past, complaining that astronomy is an expensive hobby. It can be, until you start doing things like racing sailboats or cars, both of which I have done over the years. They make astronomy look downright cheap. Price a new set of sails for a 40' racing sled, then price a few hives complete from Mann Lake, including bees. Beekeeping wont even register on the same scale.


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## Acebird

Lauri said:


> Old posts...come back to haunt you.


Lauri, I don't think age is going to affect this topic. I still feel beekeeping is a very cheap hobby. It is not until you make it a business that it becomes expensive because then it is competitive.

The guy that mentioned 700 bucks ... I know people that spent more than that on the license to hunt in NY then you have to spend almost that (and most spend more) on a gun or bow. And on top of the that most go year after year and come back with nothing.

My brother in law spent 8 grand (twice) on a trip to CO to hunt elk and came back with nice pictures of landscape. Beekeeping is a very cheap "Hobby".:thumbsup:


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## justusflynns

The other good thing is that you can make a boatload of money selling buckets of water to folks in Florida who are worried about their hives being blown over. I've never done it, or seen it done, but I heard about it once.


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## Intheswamp

Selling buckets of water to Floridians...a new cottage industry is born!!!!

...those hauntingly old threads!!!! Ya gotta love'em!!!! :lpf:


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> My brother in law spent 8 grand (twice) on a trip to CO to hunt elk and came back with nice pictures of landscape.



For that price, I hope they were transporting him by helicopter from a condo in Aspen to his stand every morning.


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## Acebird

We are talking CO. Have money please come. But seriously, air fair, room and board for two weeks, a guide, beer, women would be much more so leave out the women part. You are traveling through commercial air lines with GUNS so think about the red tape that is involved. I think the accommodations were more primitive.


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## shannonswyatt

mac said:


> Bee keepers will argue about anything


Your wrong!


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## Lauri

Acebird said:


> women would be much more so leave out the women part. .


Yes, we Women Pets _are_ costly, especially when it comes to beekeeping...Not cheap as the OP implies. We want the best equipment, best bees, best tools...

Check out my newest toy:
http://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by-model/industrial-cabinet-saw#overview


You see, that's where you made your mistake. Women are good luck on a hunting trip. And the cooking ain't too bad ether...




























Deviled turkey eggs


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## sqkcrk

Was it your birthday Lauri?


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## Lauri

sqkcrk said:


> Was it your birthday Lauri?


Next month..

Jim always buys me something really good..that he likes too  Ulterior motives I think. I notice it is in HIS side of the shop...


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## shannonswyatt

I would love one of those, but then I would need someplace to put it. ****...


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## sqkcrk

Lauri said:


> Next month..
> 
> Jim always buys me something really good..that he likes too  Ulterior motives I think. But I'm happy to share


Ha, ha, ha. If I bought my wife a lawn mower for her birthday I would hate to think what some folks would say. And she is the person who cuts the grass.


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## djei5

Acebird said:


> I did not say I didn't spend any money, I said it could be done. And I know people that have done it for years. What bugs me is when you join a club or take a class and they come out with that laundry list like you just posted saying this is what you got to have.
> 
> To answer your question, nothing. My wife pays for everything.


 Aaaaaahhhh! Reminds me of all the other "free" stuff people can get.
Free lunches
Free groceries
Free health care...wait a minute, I pay for that!


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## Acebird

Lauri said:


> Women are good luck on a hunting trip.


Of course they are if you are actually hunting.

However, getting back to the topic I don't believe too many "hobby" beekeepers are buying a Saw Stop. I am not saying you shouldn't but I don't think they are. If we thought about the potential danger we put ourselves in every day we would all be driving tanks.


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## Acebird

Lauri said:


> Next month..


Ah, the bull.
http://www.astrology.com/taurus-sun-sign-zodiac-signs/2-d-d-66950


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> If I bought my wife a lawn mower for her birthday I would hate to think what some folks would say.


My wife told me never to buy her a kitchen appliance for a gift so I picked a Kitchen Aide mixer and a bread machine out of the dumpster. When I brought it in I told her I didn't buy it. Her eyes lit up like I was the most wonderful man in the universe. You just never know how a woman will react to a gift.


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## Lauri

Acebird said:


> Ah, the bull.
> http://www.astrology.com/taurus-sun-sign-zodiac-signs/2-d-d-66950


Nope, guess again.


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## Lauri

Acebird said:


> I picked a Kitchen Aide mixer and a bread machine out of the dumpster.


I KNEW I've seen you before! I'm a dumpster diver too. I go after the wood products though, not for gifts.
Well, _maybe _for my Mother in law...


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## Acebird

Lauri said:


> Well, _maybe _for my Mother in law...


Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, I can't stop.


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## Lauri

Acebird said:


> Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, I can't stop.


Cant stop???
You can avoid the company of gals, but can't resist a garbage can? 

I think we've figured out Brians weakness:banana:

Acebird: Master recycler


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## Brad Bee

shannonswyatt said:


> Your wrong!


It's you're.


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## BeeCurious

Lauri said:


> Cant stop???
> You can avoid the company of gals, but can't resist a garbage can?
> 
> I think we've figured out Brians weakness:banana:
> 
> Acebird: Master recycler


These posts have reminded me of an old blues song... "Stick out your can, here comes the garbage man" 

http://www.veoh.com/iphone/#_Watch/v299736s44wrY3J


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> We are talking CO. Have money please come. But seriously, air fair, room and board for two weeks, a guide, beer, women would be much more so leave out the women part. You are traveling through commercial air lines with GUNS so think about the red tape that is involved. I think the accommodations were more primitive.



It's very easy to check a hunting rifle (or any other gun) as luggage.


----------

