# Single Brood Chambers



## Stan The Bee Man (Jul 24, 2016)

Hi....I am planning on about 50 single brood chambers next spring. I have never done this so wanted to hear pros and cons that those who might be doing this already. I know it requires more inspections and time but for me I would like to keep all brood in one bottom deep. I will be using a queen excluder above deep and using mediums for honey supers. I am in Texas and have good flows. thank you! --stan


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Only problem with me that as we have such wast amounts of brood diseases here I never figured out a way to circulate old combs out. With two brood chambers (there may be one at a time in use) it is soooooo easy.

The official advise is to move old combs to the sides and remove them in cold period. Well I did not get this message to my queens, language problems... they kept on laying on the dark combs where ever they were.


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## Stan The Bee Man (Jul 24, 2016)

thanks! sounds like its all a management call. The old comb procedure makes sense. I just want one brood chamber. Time will tell. thanks!


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

What do you do with all of the bees and how do you prevent them from swarming? I am in the north and have a hard time giving them enough space with 2-3 deeps with supers above. If they swarm, you won't have many bees left. I don't see the appeal of running single deeps, so please explain. Thanks. J


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## Stan The Bee Man (Jul 24, 2016)

This is one of the best videos on it. On swarming you just dont let them swarm. Management. Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjyNcyVvbEI


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Unfortunately, he doesn't go into his swarm management. I would love to hear how swarm management is done with only one brood box. Besides pulling frames of nectar and splitting, I can't think of any. I have a hard enough time preventing swarming without reversing and providing another deep as part of that management. Its all I can do to keep two or three brood chambers from becoming nectar bound almost overnight when the flow is on. His math is off and I don't see how he is pulling 200lbs of honey and splitting the hive too!
I am only a second year so cannot say this can't be done, and would love to hear from real people here that get those kind of results. J


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## Stan The Bee Man (Jul 24, 2016)

Swarm Management is easy. With single brood chambers even easier. You just have to be in your boxes every 10 days. Some only check their boxes every 6 months. What ever ones goals are. We all have different goals. Its all management.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Swarm management is cutting out cells on colonies that make preparations. Most will go into production mode when the flow hits. Cut cells once, twice, if a third time split them for max nucs and be done with it. Don't mess around if no honey production you make bees and make your $$$ there. The split he is talking about is a capped frame of brood and an open frame of brood to make up a nuc. Won't effect production at all if done at the right time. 150 - 200 pounds is normal there from good hives. Remember beekeeping is local.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

I may have some insight on how swarm prevention would go hand-in-hand with running single deeps...

before I get started, some links... http://www.three-peaks.net/PDF/hive_Objections To The Double Deep.pdf and http://www.pedersenapiaries.ca/wintering_singles.html So, it is done by some commercial folk in Canada, eliminating the argument about not enough winter honey (somewhat - for northerners).

When a queen lays 2000 eggs a day, on a frame with about 3000 cells on a side for brood (it has 3500 total but will not be completely brood), it will take her 3 days to fill a frame, and in 21 days she will have laid 7 frames worth. Then the first frame she started with is open and she can go to that one. Or she can go to another... but the new frame will just replace the original as brood space, right? that first frame won't magically fill with eggs.

That's right, I am making the argument that a queen laying 2000 eggs a day, using about 80% of a frame, will only EVER have 7 frames of brood going at a time. 

How can someone make the claim that they have 3 deeps full of brood? A few possibilities come to mind... 1) Queen only laying in top deep; 2) less than 40% of all the frames' area usable for eggs due to pollen or backfilling or cells too big for worker brood, so used for honey/drones; 3) queen has much higher laying rate than expected.

Going back to a queen laying 2000 eggs a day, using 80% of a deep frame, this means someone using 1 deep has to manage the comb VERY CAREFULLY. It's key to note whether comb has become unusable due to pollen, for example. Bees do not remove old pollen. And that if too much of the top part gets drawn out as honey storage, you won't have enough brood area. It also means often there is no cushion for days where the bees cannot go out and forage due to rain or cold or wind, when it is not during an expected time of no-fly. A sugarboard would be in order. 

My understanding is that the majority of the honey collected is stored in the supers for a single deep case, making for a larger crop collected. Then at the end of the season the beekeeper feeds a lot, to the point the bees backfill the broodnest. 

What does this mean for swarm prevention? Keep the frames with the majority of worker cells available for eggs, be prepared to remove frames and add an empty one. Super early. Maybe temporarily have a double deep if the single becomes very crowded - but only long enough to start a split. Have a super or a medium UNDER the brood nest for extra bees to "hang out" in - just tossing thoughts out there of strategies I have seen in old books. 

I'm going to try a Dadant deep - basically a Jumbo Langstroth - 12 in deep rather than 9 and some odd inches deep. Hopefully that will be the best balance of honey reserves (we can get 50 and crappy in late June, and have long stretches of no-fly in spring during build up) and using only 1 brood chamber.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I'm a big fan of the single box brood chamber in a square Dadant depth box with 14 frames. It easily meets all the needs of a full size colony year round. The area available for brood is equivalent to 18 Langstroth frames.

Juhani and others have pointed out the weaknesses with Langstroth equipment. 

1. Difficult to rotate frames out of the brood nest
2. Easily gets crowded in spring which leads to swarming
3. Requires management with queen excluders
4. Requires plenty of supers since most of the crop will be removed
5. Fall feeding is necessary to pack the box for winter
6. Difficult to relieve honeybound colonies except by swapping out full frames with empties


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Fusion_power said:


> Juhani and others have pointed out the weaknesses with Langstroth equipment.
> 
> 1. Difficult to rotate frames out of the brood nest


This was actually the reason I gave up using full Dadant (Jumbo 285x448) frames.


With Langstroth (232x448) frames rotating is much easier, even with single brood chamber system. Just put the queen on clean frames or foundation (one drawn comb is usually needed) in the bottom box, excluder on and then all other boxes.
With Full size Dadant this cannot be done unless you have 2 full size Dadant boxes per hive. And even if you have, they brake your back, and therefore it is not a good idea.

Today I have all equipment half Dadant(140x448) 12 frame boxes.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Fivej said:


> Unfortunately, he doesn't go into his swarm management. I would love to hear how swarm management is done with only one brood box.



With one brood chamber Langstroth size it needs a bit work. Put the queen is one drawn frame (the one she is walking) in a box of foundation. Put this on hive bottom. Queen exclure on top and then all other boxes, take one frame out and equalize the beespaces. Do this operation just before your main crop and/or when the bees start swarm preparation. If your beestock has a problem with swarming you need to check for queen cell above excluder after 7-9 days. Destroy cells or use them for nuc production.

P.S.
The best is to buy beestock which does not swarm. 
I have given this advise in all my courses and lectures for the last 30 years and there are always beekeepers who say "such bees do not exist". Well, I understand it is hard to believe something exists if you have not seen them (ufos for example). But bees, which do not swarm or swarming is such a rare incidence that it is not profitable(time spent/ money saved) to do anything, really exist. Where is US, cannot say, but you just need to find good enough beebreeder.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> I'm a big fan of the single box brood chamber in a square Dadant depth box with 14 frames. It easily meets all the needs of a full size colony year round. The area available for brood is equivalent to 18 Langstroth frames.


I`m with Dar here. With a closed floor the bees used the foundations completely and as a brood chamber the 12 frame Dadant I´ve got is exactly right for a colony made in spring or a swarm caught.
Put a second deep on top in may and wait until filled with 3 frames of brood just use this for a split in spring as the new chamber, no shifting of combs necessary, except of combs with stores perhaps.
Or let them throw a swarm, this will happen in June without swarm prevention, if flow is good.
I can´t say to overwintering yet, but space is sufficient for stores in my climate without a medium on top ( honey frames at the sides and big domes on top, I need 20-25kg of stores) . If the horizontal moving of the cluster is good for survivability I have yet to see.
Put some mediums on top for honey they never bred into those after swarm season.

I have a co-worker in Ireland who uses square dadant with his production hives, but does swarm prevention by breaking cells, his colonies use two deeps for brood and 2-4 for honey storage above an excluder.
So to us, one square dadant is a nuc hive.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks for the explanation on swarm prevention. I sure would like to find non-swarming bees. Most here (Northern US) say they do not exist. Just some are less swarmy, but you usually give up a desirable trait. J


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> Put a second deep on top in may and wait until filled with 3 frames of brood just use this for a split in spring as the new chamber, no shifting of combs necessary, except of combs with stores perhaps.


If you use two Jumbo 12 -frame boxes as regular procedure, there will be time when you:

1. have to lift full size Jumbo ( brakes your back)

or

2. lift frames individually from this box (lots of extra work)



either way not good idea if you have more than about 10 hives


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Fivej said:


> Unfortunately, he doesn't go into his swarm management. I would love to hear how swarm management is done with only one brood box. Besides pulling frames of nectar and splitting, I can't think of any. I have a hard enough time preventing swarming without reversing and providing another deep as part of that management. Its all I can do to keep two or three brood chambers from becoming nectar bound almost overnight when the flow is on. His math is off and I don't see how he is pulling 200lbs of honey and splitting the hive too!
> I am only a second year so cannot say this can't be done, and would love to hear from real people here that get those kind of results. J


I’ve been getting bombarded with single management questions, so I’ve Been putting a vid together to help demonstrate the practice here.
Should be up shortly. Swarm control is the major theme of this management


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## bee keeper chef (Nov 1, 2015)

Ian cant wait to see this I have 10 single deeps that I am trying to take through winter I have been trying to find everything I can about singles


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I’m not treatment free, as I realize this topic sits in the treatment free forum 
But the management practice is sound and practiced by most around here


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The trick about managing singles is not to restrict your thought toward single box’s, just manage around the single box as the base unit


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ian, you are more than welcome to post in the tf section anytime you wish.

it appears that the equipment/hardware subforum is a better fit for this thread so i have moved it here.

i use a single deep with medium supers, but allow the broodnest to expand up into the (checkerboarded) supers as part of my swarm prevention strategy.

by mid spring the broodnest is usually all the way up into the supers and the deep becomes mostly empty comb. at that point i'll move the queen down into the deep below an excluder and make her start a whole new broodnest. (many thanks for sharing that strategy ian)

as the brood emerges in the supers it gets replaced with honey during what is our main spring nectar flow and with this management i'll thwart swarm ambition for about 85% of my colonies.

in some hives i'll find a few queen cells pulled out in the supers after moving the queen down. i've been culling those cells but next season my plan is to go ahead and make up nucs with them.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Ian
Though you have a wonderful you tube spot, I spend more time on here. I request that when you get your vidio up that you post a link in a thread like this cause I would love to see it but admit also that I only go from here or find by accident if on you tube. Your choice but I really like your vidios but don't subscribe to stuff cause I don't check email or anything like that.

If you post a link where I can find it, I will be the first one to watch. Like I said, I have liked all of yours I have seen.
Cheers
gww


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

Stan The Bee Man said:


> Swarm Management is easy. With single brood chambers even easier. You just have to be in your boxes every 10 days. Some only check their boxes every 6 months. What ever ones goals are. We all have different goals. Its all management.


If you inspect every 10 days, you will miss the swarm. Queen cells get capped after 8 days after which the queen will swarm with half of the hive. You need to inspect every 5 days to catch the QC in time to split the hive.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> Juhani
> 
> either way not good idea if you have more than about 10 hives


I have more but set the limit on 30. Shift the frames in the original arrangement to a second deep when filled, yes. But only once in season.
Since I can move around my hives with a wheelbarrow it´s easy work, done in 10 minutes after caging the queen.




> Ian
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I would like to learn more about singles to be managed too.



> Squarepeg
> 
> by mid spring the broodnest is usually all the way up into the supers and the deep becomes mostly empty comb. at that point i'll move the queen down into the deep below an excluder and make her start a whole new broodnest.


Interesting! In my two deep arrangement the queens moved up but down again and filled both boxes. I have never tested when they would throw a swarm. Once I had two queens in a 2 deep arrangement, that was in late summer. One layed on top the other on bottom. My only natural swarm was a single deep which I had made queenless and which was too strong, so they throwed a swarm with virgin.



> If you inspect every 10 days, you will miss the swarm. Queen cells get capped after 8 days after which the queen will swarm with half of the hive. You need to inspect every 5 days to catch the QC in time to split the hive.


My former mentor checked every weekend on saturday. This worked. All beekeepers here do swarm prevention like that. Often they overlook a cell because it´s time consuming work and the hives burst with bees.
I´ve had queen cells buried horizontally in the comb at the bottom. Most of such are not detected.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Videos of Ian's presentations at BCHPA were posted a few days ago
https://vimeo.com/user40390212


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

msl said:


> Videos of Ian's presentations at BCHPA were posted a few days ago
> https://vimeo.com/user40390212


Well the presentation is pretty rookie but the content is solid


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Good presentations, Ian, plus really like your other you tube videos, all really interesting.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

My first presentation you could see my nerves but the other two I was able to relax a bit. 
I love it! Buzz buzz buzz


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I don't get this link to come up on my computer. It just gives a blank page. I am thinking it could be my brouser being too old.
Cheers
gww


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Ian, two things, i asked one question on your video but ill ask here too:

1. How do you think this would fare for a 10 frame deep with a 2 frame feeder in it? 

2. Can you upload your presentations to your YouTube channel?


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## cbay (Mar 27, 2017)

Great stuff! Thanks for taking the time to do this. 
Quite the operation you have there.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

hex0rz said:


> Ian, two things, i asked one question on your video but ill ask here too:
> 
> 1. How do you think this would fare for a 10 frame deep with a 2 frame feeder in it?
> 
> 2. Can you upload your presentations to your YouTube channel?


They uploaded the vids on a user platform I’m not familiar with but I’ll link them to my website tonight

As for having a frame feeder, I need those 2 frames space. 
Now do that with nuc production and you will be fine


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

You can always keep your bees from swarming by putting on a queen excluder on top of the bottom board. Just a simple idea.


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## bee keeper chef (Nov 1, 2015)

frustrateddrone said:


> You can always keep your bees from swarming by putting on a queen excluder on top of the bottom board. Just a simple idea.


That does not work


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

frustrateddrone said:


> You can always keep your bees from swarming by putting on a queen excluder on top of the bottom board. Just a simple idea.


That does keep the drones from going outside.


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## robirot (Mar 26, 2017)

If you use single brood chambers, it is easy to renew the old combs.
Start the hive with a shook swarm (homemade package bees) or a buyed package if you only have that, and put on foundation. Mark the box with the color of the year.
After two working seasons, you take a new box with foundation and put in the place of the old hive. Now put a big landin board and a queen excluder in front of the hive.

Work about 30 feet away with the old brood chamber and brush all bees into a bricklayers tub. Most bees will fly back into the now empty hive. Look 4 the queen inside and kill her.

If you can't find her, wait a little then throw the bees up into the air, she will fall down and be easly spotted most times or shake the bees through a excluder to make up more shook swarms. 

After about two hours put a new queen in a candy cage into the new box and put on a hive-top feeder filled full of sirup. The bees will draw the foundation in one to two wekks fully, just make sure to feed. OAV the hive after 2 and 5 days and you also reduced the mite count.

The left over brood in the combs, gets onto a weeker hive over an excluder. Treat with formic, since you will introduce a lot of mites with the brood.
After 3 weeks take the box of and molt it down. If they have stored honey/feed inside spin them out and refeed it into our other hives. 

This way you get fresh combs and queens into every hive, every two years. But it also means that you need to work this way strict, no of they changed the queen, so it's ýounger. Not making splits. What is once inside a colony now belongs to the colony full time. This is also important, to make sure not to spread any disseases with transfered combs.

If you new hives, you need to make shook swarms. To make these you just take bees from over an excluder and brush them into there new home or a package cage and add a raised queen.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

I looked, but didn't see where Devan Rawn is from....what part of the country?


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## NorthMaine (Oct 27, 2016)

Canada definately... Ontario I believe.


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## Rocky Mt High (Mar 22, 2014)

@Stan the Bee Man
How was your first year of running single brood chamber hives? How did the management compare to DDs? What management practices will you change for 2019? Details, please 

Thanks, RMH


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