# Queen bank



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

MB

What kind of feeders did you end up using? I think at one point you were going to use a bottom feeder where you put the syrup in the bottom of the box? How did that work out? Or did you just use inverted jars? Too bad about your queens and nucs. Nice try though, and I'm sure you'll regroup and try something else next year.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Hate to hear it MB, but seem you are working the problem out for the next attemped. good luck next time.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

That is rough Michael, sorry to hear it. But like you always tell me, if you're not making mistakes, you're not learning anything. Too bad some mistakes have to be so costly  

I certainly like inverted jars and such for feeders, but I'm leery of leaving them unattended for long periods of time because of leaking. It's bad enough dumping a quart or 2 into a hive in summer or fall- that happened to me a few times last season- but as your experience shows, having it happen in the winter time can be fatal.

Time for another more reliable, inexpensive, and convenient feeder.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I have heard tell of using plastic poultry waters with screens inserted in the trough so the bees have something to cling to, placed in an empty deep on top of the hive. I haven't tried it yet, but I think it would proably work, just not sure what affect freezing would have on it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What kind of feeders did you end up using?

Inverted mason jars on the cover.

>I think at one point you were going to use a bottom feeder where you put the syrup in the bottom of the box?

I was going to, but never did try it.

>Too bad about your queens and nucs.

All in all, they are doing pretty well, but the syrup seems to be a detriment.

>Nice try though, and I'm sure you'll regroup and try something else next year.

So far this is working better than what I've done before. I had about 30 out of 34 of them still doing well before I stole some queens to sell.

>Hate to hear it MB, but seem you are working the problem out for the next attemped. good luck next time.

I think if I get the feeding resolved the rest of it is working well.

>That is rough Michael, sorry to hear it. But like you always tell me, if you're not making mistakes, you're not learning anything. Too bad some mistakes have to be so costly 

Well, I'll miss the 16 queens. But it was just an experiment.







I'll try a second terrarium heater next year, or try one in the basement.

>I certainly like inverted jars and such for feeders, but I'm leery of leaving them unattended for long periods of time because of leaking. It's bad enough dumping a quart or 2 into a hive in summer or fall- that happened to me a few times last season- but as your experience shows, having it happen in the winter time can be fatal.

Exactly.

>Time for another more reliable, inexpensive, and convenient feeder.

Maybe I'll put a top feeder on, or build in a frame feeder with a tube to fill it. I'm not sure yet.

>I have heard tell of using plastic poultry waters with screens inserted in the trough so the bees have something to cling to, placed in an empty deep on top of the hive. I haven't tried it yet, but I think it would proably work, just not sure what affect freezing would have on it.

Mine are heated right now, so they don't freeze, however they still change temps.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I have heard tell of using plastic poultry waters with screens inserted in the trough

You mean like this:

http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/feeder.jpg

They work great and the bees loved it, they went absolutely bonkers, more so than with inverted jars and cans. Very little drowning going on. I've got 6 of them, they cost about $2.50 or so. The screen is 1/4" hardware cloth, pressed down into the trough. When the feeder is empty, the bees crawl inside and clean it out.

The only problem with them is filling them if they aren't quite empty.. the bees are all over them. I've found the best way to do it is to set it on the ground in front of the hive for 10 minutes or so, then most of the bees vacate. The rest aren't a problem.

>or build in a frame feeder with a tube to fill it.

I've thought of that, also something akin to a rabbit waterer- inverted bottle with a cork and bent tube. The problem would be keeping it from freezing. Another idea I had was basically a tank of some sort feeding a float valve in a pan that regulated the depth of the syrup, similar to the arrangment used in maple syrup evaporators to regulate the depth of sap in the pans. It could be fashioned from the innards of a toilet tank. The syrup supply could be insulated and even heated if necessary.

Requires more thought.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

George

That be it. If you set up your tank and floats right, one tank could feed a bunch of hives. The only problem I see with it is the hoses going to the syrup pans might freeze.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The syrup supply could be insulated and even heated if necessary.

Mine are insulated and heated. So that's not a problem to me.


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

George, that waterer you showed in the picture is a chicken waterer. There is one exactly like it but made for baby quail. It has a much smaller drinking area and I think would work better. I used to raise the quail and had some but they are long gone. You can still get them and I will try and find the link.
bill


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

Here is one.

http://www.meyerhatchery.com/get_item_1gfq_1-gallon-quail-fount.htm

Here is another one.

http://members.aol.com/olbonco/waterfeeder.html

Look at item 75 on this one.
http://www.dblrsupply.com/store/brower/fountbases.html


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

i've used plastic zip lock bags with razor cuts on top side and not had a problem with leaking.

Too bad about the queens - I was thinking about ordering some later this year.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I should have more in June.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

I'm thinking about banking 100 queens this season just to try it out. if it works out well enough i might just get into the selling of queens. early queens are always to have on hand too.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

can you bank queens in, say a medium with each frame seperated by a queen excluder, with a queen in each frame? I'm thinking this could be kept inside my house with a tube going outside. That way the queen could lay and be in contact with bees to clean, feed, etc. 
If the queens would fight between the excluders, is there another way to do the same thing?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't know about banking queens over winterbut, I have banked them in the spring, when I can't use them quickly because I am moving bees to pollination or just don't need them yet.

What I do is place a wooden bound queen excluder on top of a strong colony and place the queen cages ontop of the excluder. A wooden rim keeps the cover off of the queens and allows the bees plenty of room to cover the queens. A queenless colony works best. And don't forget to keep the candy ends covered. You can just leave them in their battery box too. But then you'll need a shallow super or a medium super. I've kept them for weeks without too much loss.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My "simple" version is just a 3/4" shim on top of a queenless nuc with the cages screen side down on the top bars. I also have some fancier frames with racks that hold the plastic cages.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, like he said.


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

Good thread so let's resurrect it









Why not bank queens inside in an OB hive? Seems to me this would be the easiest way to do it. Rig up a special frame like the one MB describes to hold a bunch of cages. Given they're indoors, they don't face the freezing temps or above-the-colony drippy feeder jar that the outside colonies do.

I'm thinking put in an excluder (cut to fit) below the top "special frame." Keep the caged queens above, and let a free queen roam below. 

Thoughts?

MB - do you have plans to try some version of this again this year? What changes are you making?


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Has anyone tried to replicate Kirk Webster's method of overwintering nucs? It sounded like a convincing way to overwinter queens.


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

Where can I read about how Kirk overwinters nucs, Aspera?

Thanks!


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I think that it was first published in the Feb 1997 of ABJ. His method has gained some fame, so you can find info by googling it if you don't have the old journals anymore. I'm lucky in that the local library has the last 20 years worth


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## Radar (Sep 4, 2006)

Did anyone have any luck locating the information about this method refered to in this thread on overwintering nucs article in ABJ,if so have you got a link please. I have searched in vain.


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

I Googled - no luck. I don't think any copies of his nuc wintering articles are available online.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why not bank queens inside in an OB hive?

I've thought about it. I haven't tried it. I'm almost sold out of queens this year, so I may not have any to put in the observation hive. Otherwise I had been considering it.

>I'm thinking put in an excluder (cut to fit) below the top "special frame." Keep the caged queens above, and let a free queen roam below.

That's an idea. But would take even more work to set up. It might be worth it, though.

>MB - do you have plans to try some version of this again this year?

The queen bank? I had planned to do what I did last year except feed dry baker's sugar (drivert) instead of syrup. But it looks like I may sell out all the queens. I only have five not accounted for and several nibbles on those.

> What changes are you making?

I am going to try overwintering nucs again, to get queens through. They are all five frame nucs and I will feed them syrup for now, but will switch to dry baker's sugar later. I think I'm going to make a one by two shim and put a piece of newspaper on top of the top bars and the shim on top of that with the front end open (I have top entrances on the lids) and baker's sugar (drivert) piled on the back for emergency feed. Then I can check on them on warm days and see if they've eaten all the sugar or not. I was thinking of candy lids, but I don't feel like working that hard to make all the candy.

I've been experimenting with the baker's sugar and the bees really take it well, as opposed to their indifference to regular sugar.

I'm also going to have the heater turned down more (50 F or less) and no syrup.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Sorry, I geuss that I overestimated his acclaim. Basically the system consisted of overwintering nucs on top of a larger incubator colony and breeding summer queens for replacements/spring nucs.


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

Last weekend and again today I worked on and finally finished my observation hive for the basement (it hangs from the window sill above my desk). Got a colony installed this evening after breaking one of the glass panes and having to drive all over creation to find a replacement to fit. 

The hive holds 5 medium frames which is the same size as one of my nucs. I've placed a queen excluder section just below the top frame, and have a caged queen in the bottom of the top frame; a NWC queen is free to roam in the bottom 4 frames of the hive.

I'll do a combine some time this week and will have a second queen to put into "storage" in the top frame beside queen that's there now. So far so good, but I feel bad about confining the queens in such a small space (queen cage). I might rig something up to give them a little more room, but it's got to be better than getting dropped in alcohol and used for swarm bait.

I'll report back here later as I learn how this method of banking queens works in actual practice. Wish me luck.

Note that I'd had another queen to bank, but lost her to cold two nights ago. I'd caged her and another queen (mail order) when I did a combine last week. When it got down to 30, I guess the cluster wasn't able to keep both caged queens in the nuc warm :-( Fortunately they chose to keep the mail order NWC warm over the mutt, though it would have been nice to have both :-(


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I was talking with a beekeeper in Canada and he said that you can keep the syrup warm using what is called a beer budy. it is a ring that fits over a bottle to keep liquid warm. 


Michael: how do you keep your syrup warm during the winter?


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

One day later and already I've learned something...

When I went down to check on the hive at 5:30 this morning, the banked queen was pretty torpid. It was cold enough even with a blanket draped over the hive that the bees were clustered mostly on the lower three frames, and very little heat was getting up to the top frame. 

So tonight after work I made up some insulation boards by gluing some 1/2" foam to cardboard sheets cut to cover the glass. I put these in place tonight - tomorrow will tell how well they do at keeping the inside temperature up.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Try a terrarium heater.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

do you put the heater on the bottom of the hive or on top. Never seen a picture of a terrarium heater.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I put it underneath.


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

I bought one that is approximately 6" x 8", and has adhesive on one side. I peeled back the paper on the adhesive about a quarter of the way, folded it over, and stuck the heater onto the glass behind the fourth frame from the top, with the banked queen directly above where the heater is stuck. It seems to be working like a charm!

Excellent suggestion Michael!


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## nsmith1957 (Sep 7, 2006)

I don't know how much a terrarium heater costs, if I was going to try to keep a box warm outdoors, I would setup a control system for 100 watt light bulbs. Using 1 heat only home thermostat, 1 small stepdown transformer (120VAC to 24VAC @2A), 1 24VAC octal base relay with base, 1 cheap bathroom vent fan, and ever how many light bulbs, with bases, it took to warm the box (depends on size of box to warm). It would be simple and cheap to operate (Replace a bulb when it burns out, simple to troubleshoot and repair). If all was kept dry it would last many years.


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

The one I bought was $20. They had a smaller one for $16


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## nsmith1957 (Sep 7, 2006)

__________________________________________________
The one I bought was $20. They had a smaller one for $16
__________________________________________________

How reliable are they?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Excellent suggestion Michael!

I got it from Finnman.


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

>How reliable are they? 

I don't know yet, but I'll post if it fails. Today while comparison shopping I found another brand that was about $5 cheaper. 

FYI the pad has the temp up to the point that the hive bees are now well clustered around the banked queen/cage. Previously in the AM there weren't even any workers on the top frame, let alone with the banked queen!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Previously in the AM there weren't even any workers on the top frame, let alone with the banked queen!

Exactly why I bought one.


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

Last night was our coldest night/day (or so the weatherman said). Tonight when I went down, the bees were "clustered" more than I'd seen them previously. There were still bees on the top frame, but only a few around the banked queen cage. On close inspection, the banked queen was dead  

My best guess as to what killed her is the temperature. Though the heating pad was on and warm, it was not nearly as warm in the top section as it had been previously, as evidenced by the fact that only a few bees were up there.

I may have one or two more queens to bank as a result of combines, but... I guess I would add a second heating pad before banking another queen. I might also reduce the ventilation. With this hive in the basement, my whole house might be acting like a chimney pulling cold air rapidly in through the entrance and through the hive - I'll have to look into this more on a really cold morning (maybe tomorrow).

The only other reasons I can think of that she might have died are: 1. She wasn't fed by the hive bees (but they were well clustered around her, so I doubt this) 2. She was killed by the hive bees (would they do this? Would their loyalty to the hive queen be that strong?) 3. She was killed by the hive queen (doubtful - there's an excluder keeping her out of the top of the OH) 4. She got stuck in the queen cage candy (this is a definite possibility - she is in a funny position wedged in a cavity in the candy - I should have put her in a candyless cage). Could be a combination of more than one of the above - guess I'll need to lose more queens before I'll know for sure - might have to wait till next year when I'll hopefully breed a late round specifically for banking.


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## nsmith1957 (Sep 7, 2006)

The terrarium heater's wattage is probably not high enough to keep the box warm. If the heaters are what I think they are, they are only designed to keep the terrarium at a constant temp within a heated home. They can only handle somewhere around 10 deg F below temp setting. If the outside temp is 20 deg F then the heater will only have raised the box (Terrarium size box) 10 or so deg F to 30 deg or if 45 deg F then the heater will raise it to around 55 deg and so on. Insulation would help raise this.

[ October 25, 2006, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: nsmith1957 ]


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## Craig W. (Feb 26, 2006)

This might be of interest? http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15337242


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I wish they had a picture of how they stored the queens on comb. I tend to use nucs because by winter I have all my mating nucs available anyway and the climate in my wintering yard is mediteranien so the winters are mild. I have a lot of five frame nucs I use for breeding and that leaves room for a feeder plus it is easier to introduce the queens to a colonly when I need them by just doing a combine. Otherwise the equipment would just have to be stored for the winter.


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## albee (Nov 16, 2006)

MB Are you over wintering nucs this year? 
I like your set up and was thinking about trying it with a feeder like brushy mountain uses on there 2 frame nucs.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>MB Are you over wintering nucs this year?

Yes. Minus the jar feeders.

>I like your set up and was thinking about trying it with a feeder like brushy mountain uses on there 2 frame nucs.

I don't know what their two frame nuc feeder looks like but their wood/masonite frame feeder would work pretty nicely.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm wintering about 150 queens this winter. No heater of any kind. They're in mating nucs, and I find that even in Vermont, the success rate is high. My mating nucs are 4 way...4 mating nucs per hive body...divided crossways not lengthways. During the queen rearing season, each mn has 4 mini-combs...full depth. With the last round of queens, most are expanded onto 8 mini-combs, by moving the mini-feeders to one side and uniting two of the nucs into one. With this configuration, each nuc has the same cu. in. as a 4 frame nuc. They winter quite well. Some are wintered with 4 mini-nucs in the box...not united as above. These are the mini-nucs that set up their little nest the best, and are most packed with bees. The box is wintered on top of a production colony, as I do with my standard 4 frame double nuc boxes. I've never seen any need for a heater.

In the spring, the mn's are moved to a new location, and stacked two high. At this time, some queens are removed, and used where needed. Two queens are left in each stack, one on each side of the central divider. These lay and fill the stack with brood. When the first round of cells is ready, the remaining queens are harvested, the mn's are divided into 4 ways again, and given cells. The mn's are used for mating queens for the rest of the summer, and in August, the process is repeated. Judging from the success rate, I don't believe that any type of heater in necessary here in Vermont. If the bees have been allowed to set up their broodnest, the population is good, and there is enough feed, they winter well. I find my mn's don't winter as well if I try to get just one more round of queens harvested at the end of the season.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Aspera, you said in reference to Kirk Webster "Sorry, I geuss that I overestimated his acclaim. Basically the system consisted of overwintering nucs on top of a larger incubator colony and breeding summer queens for replacements/spring nucs. 

I would suggest that there is much more to what he pioneered, what he does, and what his operation of scope is. It does not end with the narrow confines of your comment.

I had the pleasure of having dinner with Kirk, which is special I suppose since Kirk gives little speeches and some would say he is a little shy or low key. After hearing him give a talk, and then being able to pick his brain apart for two additional hours, it was a treat.

He wrote about northern climatized bees, over-wintering techniques, selection for northern climatized bees, and going chemical free, all at a time when there were not too many doing anything in this approach. He may not of pioneered much of what he does, since some can be accredited to C. Mraz, and others. But I will say because of his writtings and VERY humble approach, he has given many others the push, the direction, and the confidence to overwinter nucs, and build upon a northern system of breeding bees and being successful, while not depending on southern bees.

His program in itself is a model that northern beekeeepers should look into if you want northern climatized stock, without depending in my opinion, a weak southern breeding program. He advocates splitting and nuc/hive building after the flow. Imagine that! All beekeeper I ever knew, did it early spring with the first available queens one could get from the south.

He also advocates going into winter with nucs so you can anticipate losses, and realizes that mother nature naturally culls, as it should. I never heard of another beekeeper till Kirk mention, let alone take the time to write and teach others how to be self sufficient in the north without relying on early spring queens from the south.

Bees are not rocket science. And for all the hype and personal opinions on some new way of doing things, they basically have always been a box of bees. And years from now, they will still be a box of bees. But I find Kirks methods, even if not new, refreshing, inspiring, and he has helped many look at things with a twist here, and a tweek there. Today, we may see it as something many are doing. Back when he started writing and was humble enough to help others, far less considered overwintering nucs, many outright said it could not be done. They were wrong. It just took the right system, the right bees, and the right person to show others. 

Sorry, if you "think" you underestimated your accliam.

[ January 20, 2007, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

You should reread my posts in this thread. I said nothing to contradict your statements or to disparage Mr. Webster. Quite the opposite.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Aspera,

For the sake of not having bad feelings on anyone's part, I'll edit this post. I have had the pleasure of having Aspera in my home. Not worth picking a fight over this.

Isn't it nice to have someone as open and honest as "me", to let you know how someone else may interprete a comment, even if its not what was intended? 

[ January 20, 2007, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Bjorn, I think you're right on about Kirk Webster. He's been a good friend, and occasional mentor. While we don't do everything the same, the basic plan is the same. That plan is, to me, the salvation of all our apiaries.

It basically is a three part system. 

1. Mini-nucs to raise queens from your best survivor stock.
2. Nucleus colonies made in mid summer, using queens from the mating nucs.
4.Production colonies

Each supports the other. Surviving production colonies supply the breeder queens. These queens are selected for the traits that you feel are necessary, for keeping bees in your area, and under your management conditions. Those conditions will cover the spectrum from the chemical beekeeper, to the small cell beekeeper...your choice. The nucleus colonies provide a source of free bees to replace those that die or don't perform in the production mode. When production colonies are stressed by mites...of either kind...or whatever, the nucleus colonies often winter better and with no mite treatments. It is here that the selection process can begin. The poor queens and inferior nucs can be weeded out, before they are placed into production colonies. The mating nucs are providing a constant supply of queens for the other two groups. These also can be over wintered, providing both an early supply of queens, and healthy well brooded mating nucs for queen rearing.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

MP, One of the things that made a huge impression on me was Kirk's very sincere and humble approach. 

He made a comment that I took too heart..."We have been talking about varroa for almost twenty years. And we'll be talking about varroa for probably another twenty years. Why not take what mother nature gives you and make the most of it." This was in a discussion of his thoughts on overwintering a surplus of nucs in anticipation of some loss through the winter. This allows a natural cull, and sets the mind frame of a beekeeper having culling practices. A practice too few actually accomplish. Most try to save everything without regards to money, time or labor.

His program allows you to overwinter a surplus of nucs, breed and split at a better time than the traditional spring timeframe, compensate losses, and improve your stock.

If you need 10 hives next spring, overwinter 15 hives and/or nucs. Come out of winter with realized losses, and maximize your honey flow and labor efforts. Too many need ten hives next spring, go into winter with ten, come out with less than that, jump into ordering poor spring queens, split the strongest hives, ruin the honey crop, and start the cycle all over again.

I find nuc colonies overwinter at the highest rate. Then first year queens that were used for requeening production hives. Then everything else is far below in overwintering rates. I think this is very apparent for those not using traditional chemicals and treatments. Natural management and techniques will make it very clear, what works and what does not. treatments only mask the true picture.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>If you need 10 hives next spring, overwinter 15 hives and/or nucs. Come out of winter with realized losses, and maximize your honey flow and labor efforts. Too many need ten hives next spring, go into winter with ten, come out with less than that, jump into ordering poor spring queens, split the strongest hives, ruin the honey crop, and start the cycle all over again.

I couldn't agree more. I've devoted a lot of time, over the last couple years, to teaching beekeepers the plan. Kirk, at one time, told me no one was listening. He was discouraged by others lack of forsight. Now when I tell him...again yesterday actually, he's recovering from a hernia operation...how popular it has become, he gets a big grin. 

I'd like to see every hobby beekeeper have a nuc box on top of every colony. There wouldn't be any shortage of bees then, would there? The nuc box could remain on the hive, and be managed through the year. In the spring, if the parent colony is dead, or weak, one of the nucs could be used in that space. The other would be allowed to repopulate the whole nuc box...in nucs with movable division board feeders. It could then be redivided, to make 2 nucs. If there were a surplus of nucs, some could be sold/given away, much reducing the need for packaged bees being shipped north. The nucs would obviously have to be managed to prevent swarming, but brood can always be removed, and given where needed.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>jump into ordering poor spring queens, split the strongest hives, ruin the honey crop, and start the cycle all over again.

What a vicious cycle. You want to produce a honey crop, but you split your bees to replace dead outs. The colony never recovers, never reaches it's potential, and the crop is diminished. I know that after running my bees this way, for a number of years, my average crop is up 60%, and I'm having more fun than ever. It's so much nicer to manage strong colonies, than colonies always struggling to build up.


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## albee (Nov 16, 2006)

MB It was better bee. 
http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=306 
With the space in the back there would be room for a feeder. Have you checked on your nucs? How are they? How often does your heater run?

[ January 20, 2007, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: albee ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Betterbee has the styrofoam nucs (five frame deeps) where you spill the syrup on the bottom to feed. The two frame seem to have an entrance feeder and that seems like a bad idea. But maybe it's sealed well enough to keep out the robbers. Mine are just two frame nucs and if they need food I swap out an empty frame for one with honey from a strong hive. That usually doesn't set off robbing and gives them enough stores to last for some time.


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