# Home made frames



## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

last year I bought some nucs that had similar frames. before heading home I put in push pins to prevent frame damage and squishing bees. it worked great on the 100 mile [170 km] trip home. however some of the pins started to come loose over the summer and drop into the hive so I took them out. just spaceing the frames works better for me. for moveing the hives I think the pins are a good idea.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

I also made some homemade ones when I was first starting out - definitely not worth the time.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

I make the standard frames for about $0.64 in materials; it requires a little skill + tools, but very simple. I have an instructional thread here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277747-How-To-Make-Your-Own-Frames-Photo-Tutorial


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## hideawayranch (Mar 5, 2013)

My issue with frames is when you set them back in you squish bees between the frame and ledge they sit on. Takes me the longest time to make sure they are out of the way. Maybe if that yellow pin was there instead it would be a real boom. I have learned (the normal way) that squishing bees creates an unhappy group of bees, and they become a bit aggressive.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I used screw eyes to get frames evenly spaced when I made jumbo sized frames. I found if another set was placed about midway down the end bar they don't bang together when moving. I placed the 2 screw eyes on the right side end bar to face away from me when I held it and the 2 eyes on the left side faced toward me.

It is much easier to purchase frames than it is to try to make them, the reason I made the jumbos was because they were hard to buy.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I would place a second pin lower down the bar to prevent slapping. I would also just place a pen on one side of the frame. this would also serve to help keep frames oriented in the same direction.

I have made a lot of frames. I agree they are a pain and they are first on my list of things to not make in the future and just purchase so I am working with the shoulder. I have nearly a thousand of them to make this winter and will probably start placing a nail in them as a spacer.


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

the side plates are about the easiest part to make, and can be made fast using 2x10's Think its a great idea!!! Just think the time spent with pins could have made the side plates as quickly.. I made 200 today in about a half hour (side plates) its the top bars that take the longest for me.....



Progression of a frame from right to left... Of course I use mediums, so I dont have any supports.. if I need to extract and they havent attached the sides, I drill holes and push the plastic frame pins in from the sides...
Dont get me wrong here. i am NOT degrading what was done at all.. but would like a bit more detail in the construction steps.. learning how, and what others do often has me modifying what I do!


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

SS1, could you give a detailed description of how you mill the 2x10 for the side bars?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

SS1 said:


> ...would like a bit more detail in the construction steps.. learning how, and what others do often has me modifying what I do!


I'm only using a circular saw in a tabletop.

Cut 19mm (3/4") pine boards into the following lengths:

482mm (19") - Top bar
428mm (16.85") - Bottom bar
220mm (8.66") x 2 - Sides bars

With the circular saw cut 11mm (7/16") strips.

Put a groove on both the top and bottom bars.

Assemble with 3 icecream sticks as a comb guide and 2 bamboo skewers for comb support.

Tap in the 4 map pins.

That's it.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I am also interested in how to get the block milled for the end bars. I do the end notches as a block but then cut each individual end bar to make the rest of the cuts. It would be much faster to do them as a block.

I agree top bars are also time consuming. I have managed to speed them up quite a bit. Mainly with the use of a radial arm saw and jigs. I also cut the end taper with a dado blade on my table saw. Still a lot of cuts required on individual bars.

I cut boars to length on my radial arm saw with a stop block. no measuring for each cut and dead on accuracy. I then rip each bar form the board with the table saw. The groove and tapered end are cut on the table saw with the use of a jig and a dado blade. The end is then shaped either with a dado blade and table saw or a series of cuts with the radial arm saw and jigs. It is a system that even a person with little experience can do without many mistakes.


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

I run the 6 1/4 piece of 2x10 through the planer to get it to 1 3/8.. I raise my table saw blade up all the way and shave the sides 1/8 in about three passes per side until the bottom of the 2x measures 1 1/8 and both sides are shaved pretty evenly.. its not nearly as bad as it sounds.. takes about three minutes to complete...
I set up my router table with a 5/8 bit to run the middle of the 1 1/8 or smaller side of the 2x10 and run it through the table. then I flip the 2x end for end and run the other side.. turn it around side for side and run it through again to make the wider slot for the top bar. Making sure your dimensions are always the same you never have to change the router, and your top bars will always turn out the same dimensions so you can standardize your top and bottom bars to fit... Doing it this way you can rip out side plates at around 20 per 2x10 (or was it a 2x12????) section in only a few minutes...

I need to replace my radial arm saw.. after about 30 years the old craftsman died on me... Went down to get a new one.... 1500 dollars??? Really!!! I paid 185 dollars for the one I had brand new!!! After looking at the one they had for 1500 i have VERY great doubts it will last anywhere NEAR 30 years.... I may end up buying a sliding Miter saw and modifying my table to make it work.. as stated.. i use blocks at pre measured distances to cut lots of boards fast.... but for 1500 dollars I can do a HECK of a lot of measuring....
I will try to get Pics for you tomorrow to make it clearer...


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## Honey Hive Farms (Nov 1, 2012)

Not sure how you do this and make money. We wanted to make our own frames and we wanted to use a 3 axes router, but hasn't happened yet as we have so many irons in the fire. Nice pics and set up.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Honey Hive Farms said:


> Not sure how you do this and make money. We wanted to make our own frames and we wanted to use a 3 axes router, but hasn't happened yet as we have so many irons in the fire. Nice pics and set up.


Never heard of a 3 axes router. Sounds like something from a woodworking horror movie. 

Until our shop burned up a few years back I was making specialty comb honey frames on our Multicam 3 ax-I-s router among other stuff. I don't think a cnc 3 ax-I-s router is cut out for price competitive frame manufacturing. Killer machine for making lots of stuff though......


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks SS1. Yeah the cost of the toys makes it hard to save by making your own any more. Watch garage sales or craigs list. I got mine for $300.

I do not have a planer. But am thinking of a method that woudl start with cutting a dado for the end notches first. then making jigs to reference form those notches for all other cuts on the table saw.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

SS1 said:


> I need to replace my radial arm saw..


Not sure what the situation is in Iowa, but, in my area, (Louisville Ky, Nashville TN,) you can get a fantastic radial arm saw for less than $150.00 off Craigs List.

cchoganjr


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I make my end bars from 2 x stock (any width). Run it through the planer to the correct width (1 3/8 or 1 1/4"), cut to length, then mill a slot to match the size of the top bar and bottom bar, whatever you want to use there, then slice to width on a table saw or band saw.

I've found that it's best to have several saws set up (best) or to at least run a pile of lumber through each stage, makes the work more efficient. I like to cut blanks for top bars in 2 x stock and cut ten or so blocks to length, then cut the ends -- I use a taper, but flat is fine too -- then cut the whole set into pairs, then split them all into individual bars. Set up the dado to cut the side recess, run all the bars through, both ends, then cut the bottom dado on all of them. Takes a while to get from 2 x 12 to finished top bars, but they are all the same that way and when you run them through the last step you have a year's supply, or at least I try to do it that way.

Same thing for end and bottom bars, I fill up a big box of identical parts, then assemble when I have everything done.

Peter


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I started out making frames for the first year. Then I found out that the time and energy it took to make them could be spent better. Just wasn't my cup of tea I suppose.
Woodenware however, is a totally different story. I still make everything ..... but the frames.


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

I'll have to start looking on Craigslist.. def need to replace it..

psfred.. I have often thought of setting up another table saw.. if I start getting a lot of orders I probably will to save time and help keep everything consistent..
Mr.B.. having the time on my hands to spare allows me to make a lot of frames.. if you dont have the time buying them is the best answer. I enjoy doing it too which helps a lot.


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## Beesrme (Feb 4, 2011)

Ok here is how I make my end bars. First I locate good clean 2by material with very few knots. I either Plane or use Joiner to get the desired width of 1 3/8 inch. then I block out for the desired length next I use a Shaper with the correct size cutter to cut the groove for the top Bar and then change cutter for the bottom bar. Then I move to the Joiner and have it set up with a jig which lets me slide it across the cutter at angle so it leave my sholder and trims away the wood to leave a block of end bar material ready to go to the table saw and rip out the end bars one at a time I try and use a good blade that is thin and has carbide teeth set to ripe only. 

Making top bars is easy if you have cutters made to turn out the bars with the correct bevel on the ends, as for making the groves to interlock with end bars this can be done with a simple adjustable dado with carbide teeth. For Bottom bars use the same Dado to cut the ends make your cut the width of the end bars grove and then just use table saw to cut out the bars to 3/8 thickness. For making the grove in both top bar and bottom bars just set a dado or take two thin framing saw blades 7 1/4 in. use a washer to space them and set ther so you alternate the tips of blade so they will make a clean cut wide enough to fit in foundation set depth to desired depth. Use blade for skill saw for this. I like to use good clear sugar pine for this also since it is easy to use and strong clean wood.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Has anyone tried gang sawing the end bars? Years ago I ganged 4 hollow ground planer blades and it worked well, but sucked HP. I wonder if 5 1/2 in blades could be found with an even narrower kerf than the 7 1/2 in. thin kerf, ussing less HP and wasting less wood?

Crazy Roland


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## Beesrme (Feb 4, 2011)

Crazy Roland, Yes I think that could work if you had the right HP and kept the RPM's up and maybe used a power feed system. I am fortunate to have a Company close by where they will help design and make whatever one needs. The bottom line is will you be able to regain what you cost are and turn a profit. Tom Peavey


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

What do you mean by "gang" sawing the end bars?

I'm planning to make some frames by running my piece of stock through a planer to get the 1.25" width. Then I'll run it through a dado to get the top/bottom groove. After that, I was going to run it through the table saw with tenon jig which would cut the long sides of the frame. Then turn them on the side and cut the 45 degree angle of the space bar. I should now have a end bar that looks like a normal but 10+ inches thick. Then, my plan is to slice it into individual pieces with a crosscut sled..

That's my "rough" plan. I should be able to do everything on the table saw. For each step, I will do a bunch of them. So that I don't have to change between setups.

The "wife" bought me a new table saw for my christmas present this year.. I'm thinking about setting it up make these types of repeated cuts...

**Also, I run all mediums... If I was running deeps... You'd probably have to do the sides on a shaper/router.. Since you'd probably be getting close to maxing out your cut depth on the table saw...


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## Beesrme (Feb 4, 2011)

Kevin R If all you have is a table saw that will work are you sure you wasnt to make you end bars 11/4 wide at shoulder most end bars are 1 3/8 wide that is what mine are. Also look around for an used joiner you can find them at Garage sales and some times you can find them on a combo saw/joiner set up if all you are making is medium depth frames that would work fine.The blades are around 4 inches on them. Be careful with them I sliced my finger wide open when wiping down the blades after spraying them with a coating to help keep build up from pitch from the wood. Tom Peavey


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Roland is talking about ripping 5 or 6 end bars at once. Or more depending on how big his set up would be
David


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

1.25" end bars are to be used with natural/4.9 cell size... Most suppliers don't offer them. Otherwise, I wouldn't take the time to make something that I could buy for 72 cents.

I thought about using a set of spaced Dado's to cut all the finger joints in a single pass, but I haven't devoted the time to do it.. (Like a haunching machine)

I'm currently kicking around the idea of setting up a micro controller powered end bar slicing machines. I have CNC equipment, so it shouldn't be too hard to implement something similar... turn on step/dir for motor until it hits limit switch, turn on second motor to run the wood through the saw... reverse and repeat...

I'm just not sure how many bars I'd have to make to justify it... LOL!

Similar to the machine at the end of this video, but using a single saw to the the slicing, where he's doing the sides and dados...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7zHbBOiIw0


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

KevinR said:


> Then, my plan is to slice it into individual pieces with a crosscut sled.


This step would best be done on a bandsaw, a lot less wood to remove. But you would first have to have one.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I agree... resawing wood is better on a band saw, but I don't have one at my home shop.... Maybe I need a 2nd Christmas present... = ))


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

You can bet that production machinery for making frames starts with a board cut to length that ends up as top bars with little or now hand work -- preset dado cutters, gang saws, the whole shebang. NOT CNC controlled, it's wasteful when you are never going to change the design or the parts run, much cheaper to make dedicated machinery.

For production it will all have 440V motors, and figure 2 hp per blade or cutter head. Very hard to do in the home shop, and way outa sight costwise for a couple hundred frames. It would be fun to make it all though....

Peter


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

True, I plan to make multiple sleds to offset the cost of all those 440 motors.... = ) 

Same thing with the fixtures on my cnc mill. If I was going to make the same parts all the time, I'd get stock precut/extruded to the proper sizes.. But I don't make that much, so my 200 dollar metal cutting bandsaw and a fly cutter does that work for me. 

I make a bunch of glitter on the mil... I'll make a bunch of sawdust on that table saw. If I get serious enough, it would be time to invest in a pellet mill. So that I can save up to play with the big boys...

But at the moment... A 30 dollar micro controller, 100 dollar stepper driver, and some time seems like a realistic option.

*grins*


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

I fabricate Jumbo frames that are 1.125 wide (top bar, end bars & bottom bar). I space them using track spikes, similar to hob nails.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

That's an interesting idea.. I've seen similar with staples/thumb tacks. This appears to be a little more controlled.

How much do the spikes cost? I'm assuming these are the spikes that screw into the bottom of a track shoe? 

What do you do on the end bars?


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Track spikes, LOL, awesome idea. 

Just curious, what size are the jumbo frames.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

KevinR said:


> That's an interesting idea.. I've seen similar with staples/thumb tacks. This appears to be a little more controlled.
> 
> How much do the spikes cost? I'm assuming these are the spikes that screw into the bottom of a track shoe?
> 
> What do you do on the end bars?


Yes, these are track shoe spikes. Cost = 7 dollars for 14 pieces.

Each end bar gets a spike near the bottom of the frame.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

marshmasterpat said:


> Track spikes, LOL, awesome idea.
> 
> Just curious, what size are the jumbo frames.


The frames are Langstroth width 17.750" and Dadant depth 11.250".


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## Beesrme (Feb 4, 2011)

psfred, You are right having 3 phase power is good but buying the machines to use it will cost. When I bought this place my warehouse had the 3 phase power here already. This place was built by a Beekeeper and then sold to someone else who rented it out to a cabinet maker and he needed to 3 phase and when the economy took a dump the bank got the property back and I was able to get the property to run my bees from the bank. I don't have any equipment that uses that type of power but it is here if I want it sometime. most of my equipment is 110 or 220 volts and that work for what I do. Tom Peavey


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

rail said:


> Yes, these are track shoe spikes. Cost = 7 dollars for 14 pieces.
> 
> Each end bar gets a spike near the bottom of the frame.


You could use nails with a spacer to set them to the correct depth. This by the way was described by Doolittle I think it was in one of his books.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

methods to maximize the production with each and every cut is the best way I know to reduce the time and cost of making fraems. end bars and top bars begin the two to target. This is because even though there are fewer cuts to make and end bar. you have to make two f them for every frame. I try to improve my methods every time I make frames.

Cutting dados in the ends of a block of 2X4 allows me to cut the notches in 7 end bars with each cut. Cutting that block to it's final dimensions as a block is the ultimate way to maximize production per cut. I am not there yet.

At minimum a single end bar requires 7 cuts and 5 adjustments to equipment. those are. Length, notches at each end of the bar, width which requires a cut on each side and the bee spaces that require a cut on each side. This amount to 14 total cuts to make a complete frame.

Top bars are next they require 15 cuts 16 if you make a groove With either 7 or 8 adjustments. These are. Length, width. thickness, 6 cuts to make the notches for the end bar. two cuts to taper the frame rests. and 4 cuts to make the dog ears if you do that. 

If I where to make 700 end bars. it is much faster for me to make the 7 cuts in 100 blocks than to make them in 700 individual bar pieces.

For this reason think of methods to shape an entire block of 2X material to the shape of an end bar and then slice those apart for the final thickness. A gang saw that cuts all 7 bars to thickness from a single block would be the fastest way to do that.

The only other improvement you could make would be high speed cutting and automated feeding.

I am looking at a Delta table saw with a jointer mounted to it's side that will make it possible to shape an entire block to an end bar with a single piece of equipment. Only thing I have left is the slicing. I would love to have a jointer that will take a 2X12.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Has anyone tried this method for making frames? I made a 100 in a couple hours. There are a lot fewer cuts and once you are set up it goes fast. The only things I did different was make a 1 inch rabbet on my table saw in the 1x4 for all 3 top bars before ripping to save cuts and cut them 19 inches instead of 18-7/8. Also after cutting the 1-3/8 strips for end bars I clamped 6, 6ft strips together and cut them to length in a bundle. Although not as pretty as some others they are strong and functional.
Part 1
http://youtu.be/FrK2mG44wpQ
Part 2
http://youtu.be/Avww6M2zlRw


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Looks like it works, but not a very strong designed frame... Overall the techniques appear to be close to what you'd do, but I don't think I would "eyeball" the center lines. It appears that he's 1/8" or more off center. If you have 2 frames that are like that, turned so that both short sides are together.. The bees will draw one out and not the other... At least I'd assume that be the case. That's what they do when you place an over draw frame against a not drawn foundation.


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## primeonly27 (Jun 23, 2011)

I herd of people jut buying the tops and bottoms from Dadant or Mann Lake. They make their own ends that are wider so that when you put 9 in a 10 frame box they are all perfectly spaces and almost a tight fit. This maybe the cheapest way to have them made.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

If you make the end bars thinner, you should shave the top bar also... At least you need to measure the gap and make sure that it's still 1/4"-3/8"...

Frankly, unless you are going to make a bunch... I don't know if the 72 cents per is worth the effort... Now, once your going to make a couple thousand, build all the jigs/fixtures. It probably becomes worth effort...

I.e. buddy of mine would cut a 2x6 down to the length of a medium/deep frame. Then he'd run it on a shaper to get the hoffman space on the sides... Then he just sliced it 3/8" with a fixture, similar to cutting bread/sandwich meat.. 

I'm probably going to do something similar, but I need to look and see if that is the best way to do it. It might be easier/cheaper to set up a dedicated table saw with a vertical tenon slide and then another with a 45 degree cut for the side. It doesn't take much time adjusting machines and moving jigs around to offset the price of having a dedicated machine, assuming you have the space.. (100 dollar special at harbor freight... 500 frames and it should be paid for..))

Need Santa to bring me a bandsaw...


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

KevinR said:


> Looks like it works, but not a very strong designed frame... Overall the techniques appear to be close to what you'd do, but I don't think I would "eyeball" the center lines. It appears that he's 1/8" or more off center.


I put a dab of glue on my joints and use 3/4 inch long 1/4 inch crown staples instead of brad nails, it really makes them solid. I noticed too that he was off center but that was fixed by measuring correctly. My frames are foundation-less but I still make the saw cut in the top bar to hold Popsicle sticks.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

The top/bottom dado on the end bars add quite a bit of strength to the frame when glued in place. At almost 3 times the surface area for glue. I doubt the manufacturers would go through the trouble if if it didn't work out.

With said, I doubt these frames will fall apart, but I've had some that still separated when glued/stapled from the top and side.. If I was going through the effort, I'd do everything possible to do it one time.

But if you don't have the tools, all you need is a 1.25" wide bar on the top. *grins*


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I've also thought of gluing two 8mm(5/16") strips on a 19mm(3/4") board to make the width for the end bars 35mm (1-3/8"), but the blade on my table saw doesn't quite make the height needed. So haven't tried it yet.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: Homemade frames*

Previous post of mine, mentioning frame making -> Link.

The best tool I have for creating accurate frame components, quickly, is my band saw with a carbide toothed blade. I highly recommend that anyone with a band saw, or planning to acquire a band saw, give serious consideration to also obtaining and using a carbide toothed band saw blade.

I use the band saw to cut segments of lumber into blanks, then use the table saw with dado blade to cut all rabbet cuts, then once the blanks are ready, they can be quickly cut into individual parts, like End Bars or Top Bars, using the band saw.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

What width and tooth pattern are you using? What size bandsaw as well? I have a 10" Rockwell that I need to get a new blade for.

http://lumberjocks.com/assets/pictures/projects/68783-438x.jpg


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The smaller wheeled bandsaws do not get good blade life. Sometimes not all that smooth a cut and if you happen to dull one side the cut runs off. Unless you get something with a fairly good size to it they are not that fast. They will rip wider stock than most table saws though. I have cut quite a bit of wood for strip boat construction and I found the circular saw gave better finish and the band saw was not worth the little bit of savings in the kerf loss.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: Homemade frames*

My band saw is the cheapest one I could find, a $99 Craftsman - 10", with a blade 70-1/2" long. It worked well, but the blades would always dull quickly. I had the thought that a carbide toothed blade would be better, but it was more than a year before I could fit one into my budget. Now that I have one, it has increased the performance of my band saw, incredibly. Amazingly accurate, with smooth cuts and much more quickly.

The blade I got is one with one tooth beveled in from one side, then one that is straight/flat, with the next beveled in from the opposite side. I'm not sure what that's called, but I believe it is a standard for this type of blade.

See this link.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Joseph, how wide is the kerf compared to a non insert tooth band? The problem I had with my small wheeled saw was gullet cracking (and breaking) from bending around the smaller wheels. Re the dulling; A lot of bands have the teeth sheared all from one side then sharpened and set. The bend memory of the tooth is different side to side and they tend to run off to one side. It is a fair chore to refile and set properly.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

100 dollar saw, with a 100 dollar blade... oh the Irony... *grins* 

I agree that quality blades/bits make a difference on tools... Hurts my feelings everything I break a carbide endmill. *sniffs*

Looks like a .050" kerf on that bandsaw compared to a 5/16th (0.3125) or so that I think my tablesaw blades are.

Guess it depends on how wide the piece you are slicing from on whether it makes much of a difference... But over time, I expect the tablesaw sawdust pile to be significantly bigger.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: Homemade frames*

Yes, as KevinR said, .050" kerf. Also, I got the 1/2" wide blade -vs- 3/8", so I could mount it where the carbide teeth were plenty proud of the bearings, so the carbide teeth would only contact the wood I was cutting and not destroy the bearings or the teeth. The carbide has already endured a year of work, and I'm using it much more than I ever used the typical all-steel blades. It shows no signs of the teeth becoming dull or stress fractures forming on the backing metal. And my shop is not heated or cooled, experiencing all the temperature swings our desert climate provides.

When using the all-steel blades, they were, as you say, notorious for wandering and not cutting true, despite my best efforts. Now, with the carbide toothed blades, that is a very rare occurrence.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: Homemade frames*

Why I brought up the band saw and carbide toothed band saw blades in this thread.

I had attempted to create homemade frames before I obtained the carbide toothed blade, but only managed to create a few, it was very time consuming, and they were very sad specimens, indeed. Since I obtained the carbide toothed blade, it has been much easier to make the cuts for frame components and I no longer consider homemade frame creation impractical. The materials cost much less than commercial frames, though the tools and manpower costs, likely bring the total costs of my homemade frames way above what it would cost me to purchase them, I custom design them to suit myself, so making them myself is the only option I have for frames that incorporate my own designs.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Joseph they certainly look very nice. Do you find that ridge detail on the bottom bars leads to the comb being better attached? I built that into some of my top bars but have flat bottoms and they do not get built onto, or at least not in the first drawout!


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: Homemade frames*

Sometimes they attach the bottoms of combs more quickly to those with the matching bottom comb guides, and sometimes they don't. This coming season I am going to try paying more attention, to determine, for myself, if the bottom guides are truly worth the effort.


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

*Re: Homemade frames*

I was told to rub wax on the bottom and sides and that it would help... I was also told that on each inspection I should rotate the combs.. placing a new one at the bottom side, moving them all over one, the end one up and over etc... this way the combs are slowly moved through the center of the hive where they are primary and will get attached quickly.. I cant testify to the effectiveness of rubbing wax, but I can say the SLOW rotation does seem to help... IF there is no flow I rotate the top comb down to the bottom side so I dont end up with empty frames.. if there is a flow they will quickly fill the single empty frame...

I dont use bottom guides but would be interested in knowing if they help!!!


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

*Re: Homemade frames*



SS1 said:


> I dont use bottom guides but would be interested in knowing if they help!!!


What do you mean by bottom guides?

I usually just rotate my comb if they are slow to draw out the comb. I just checkerboard it between two well drawn brood combs. If you put it between honey combs, sometimes the ladies will draw the existing comb out and ignore the foundation.. So you end up with really fat honey combs and little sad partially drawn out combs..


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Mr. Clemons - I have no doubt you have good luck with your carbide blades, but have you ever tried a blade from Starrett? We used a 9' , 3/4 wide, .032" think, 3 teeth to the inch blade in a 1930's Wallace band saw, and where quite pleased. We where ripping 2*6 the tall way to make 3-3/8" pieces, and where impressed with how straight it cut.

Crazy Roland


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

What size bandsaw?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

KevinR, If you look at my pics in posts 53 and 55, it shows my foundationless frame design, and frames with comb guides on both the undersides of the Top Bars and upper sides of the Bottom Bars, mostly in attempts to get foundationless combs attached to the Bottom Bars more quickly and readily. In honey supers the bees often seem to prefer deepening cells vs building new comb, to the annoyance of their keepers. Though give them empty space between brood combs and they usually do work that is more appreciated.

Roland, I have not yet tried blades by Starrett, but I shall look them up, and if my budget allows, I will probably give them a try. Thanks for the info.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

barry - I would say it was about a cubit from the blade to frame. 

Crazy Roland


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## bentonbee (Jan 31, 2007)

Roland said:


> Mr. Clemons - I have no doubt you have good luck with your carbide blades, but have you ever tried a blade from Starrett? We used a 9' , 3/4 wide, .032" think, 3 teeth to the inch blade in a 1930's Wallace band saw, and where quite pleased. We where ripping 2*6 the tall way to make 3-3/8" pieces, and where impressed with how straight it cut.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Crazy Roland,
Do you guys make all your own frames then? That is alot of work. Maybe you can give us some more clues?
Mike


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## bentonbee (Jan 31, 2007)

rail said:


> The frames are Langstroth width 17.750" and Dadant depth 11.250".


Rail,
Are you getting your foundation for those frames from Dadant then? It sounds like a the old Modified Dadant brood chamber frame?
Mike


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Bentonbee - we do not make our own frames at this time, but plan to in the future, due to displeasure with the current 1/2" bottom bar. In the 70's, I was awing parts for wooden gift boxes, for Muth jars. 

We currently make our own bottoms, innercovers and roofs. 

Crazy Roland


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

In making Top Bar blanks, I cut pieces of 2x lumber to frame length (19 inches), then run them through the band saw, trimming them to 7/8" thickness. Later I run each face, through the router table, cutting the comb guide profile on opposite sides of these blanks, and next cut the notches on all four corners of each blank, creating the surfaces that will receive the End Bars, and will become the End Lugs to support the frames on the frame rests. Once the Top Bar blanks are nearly finished, the final cut is back on the band saw, where each blank is cut in half, lengthwise, separating the blanks into two Top Bars, each.

​
It's easier to determine how many frames you need, then set up the band saw to make the first cut on the component you plan to create on day one. Then the second and subsequent cuts (if required), creating Top Bars / End Bars / Bottom Bars, in the quantity needed to produce the desired number of frames. Or, if there is enough time, in one day, set out the materials and decide which order to make the cuts and create each group of components, in your desired order. And, after the components are made, you can then begin assembling the components into frames.

Just like queen rearing; I always assumed frame producing was too complicated, and not worth my trouble to attempt, until I designed my own plans, then began figuring out ways to cut out the frame parts. Now that I've been doing it, it turned out to be much easier than I believed possible.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Making frames doesn't make sense for a dozen, but if you need hundreds it's not rocket science. Work out a design that suits you, then spend a bit of time getting a process set up, then decided how many you want to make.

From there, acquire the necessary supplies (I like to use yellow pine 2x10 or 2x12, whichever is nicer, for top bars and soft white wood 2x6s for end bars) and do them all at once. By that I mean cut all the "blanks" for the entire set at once so you don't have to change setups. I like to cut all my top bar blanks to length, cut the tapered ends, then cut them apart into pairs on the table saw. I split them into separate top bars last year then cut the dados for the end bars, but this year I'm going to try milling a 1/2" dado down the end of the block to cut the "notch" for the end bar -- two cuts instead of 32 or 36 if I cut each top bar separately. I'm also going to cut the side dado before I split the pairs too, same reason -- four operations instead of 8.

I think doing things this way cuts way down on the time, should produce more uniform parts, and is more fun. However, if you do want to make frames, I'd not wait much longer! If you use rainy days or odd weeknight, you can get a pile of them done over the fall and winter, but if you wait until you need frames, it's gonna be a real chore, and boring to boot as you do the same operation over and over and over!

I think making frames is worth the effort -- I use 3/8" end bars, and I see Joe is using 7/16" ones. This is MUCH stronger than the normal 5/16" one gets from suppliers. If I'm going to put all that effort into making frames, I want them to last forever.

Only one other note -- you must get a good square and make sure your saw blade is EXACTLY square to the table and the slots and angle guide are EXACTLY square to the blade. Same thing for the fence, verify every time before you cut. This will often require adjusting the saw (loosening the table and moving it to get it square, for instance) and you must NEVER depend on the scale for 0 degrees, check your saw every time with a good square before cutting. Even a few minutes of arc off square will result in frames that are not square or not flat, and a drifting slide will cause you to cut tapered parts. Small differences in thickness of parts is much less of a problem so long as you don't violate bee space badly. 

Peter


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

Well said psfred.
It DOES take time and a bit of thinking. It isn't for everyone.. however, if you need a lot of frames, AND you have time, theres really no excuse not to figure out how YOU can do it... .20 cents each compared to a buck each makes a difference when you need a thousand frames. That price can even be dropped to almost nothing if you can scrounge 2X material from old buildings.. Over the course of the summer I usually end up with a pretty decent pile of scrounged wood. I see a lot of frames in that pile others consider scrap.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Fred, You are right in that making a lot of them cuts way down on time. If the saw only has to be set up one time for each cut. 

We are in the process of making 800 frames. to buy them would cost over $600. to make them just over $300.

Keep some very big boxes around. that is a lot of pieces.

I also made our first assembly jig a couple of days ago as well.

I am not sure just how long we can hold out making our own. I am going to buy the boxes and the deep 5 frame nucs. we will still make the medium 5 frame nuc boxes. $171 to buy the nucs $181 to make them. I may give up the idea of having medium nuc boxes unless I can start getting them from suppliers. my boxes are coming from Mann Lake. I like to start my bees in a deep and a med 5 over 5 so that I can then expand them to my standard deep and med hive configuration. Plus I will build up so that I have three medium honey supers for every hive in my yard. that will be 63 medium supers. I did this last year when I only had 4 hives and ended up filling every additional extra medium with swarms.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Mann Lake will cut down their deep nucs to mediums, but you only save effort not money...


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## Beesrme (Feb 4, 2011)

Daniel Y Would you explain further why it will cost $171. to make five medium nuc boxes and $181. to buy them. I would think it should cost less, the materials can not cost that much? I make my own Nuc boxes all the time and if I need to make one to use as a medium it is very simple, I just use the California style plans and they last if done correctly. 

I also make most all my frame parts myself. This way I get a good strong frame made to work for me. Thomas Peavey


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

You should be able to make a 5 farme nuc from a 1"x8"x 12' board... which is about 4 bucks for me... You might need a little extra scrap to finish it... But it shouldn't be anywhere close to the 171/181 dollars..


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Beesrme said:


> I just use the California style plans and they last if done correctly.


I've done a Google and site search and can't find the definition for California style plans. Could I bother you for one?
Thanks 
Colino(pronounced Ko leen oh)


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## Beesrme (Feb 4, 2011)

Colino, The California Hive Plans were what was put out by UC Davis Division of Agricultural Sciences. Basically a person makes there hives using Rabbit jionts that is all there is to it. Thomas Peavey.


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Beesrme said:


> Colino, The California Hive Plans were what was put out by UC Davis Division of Agricultural Sciences. Basically a person makes there hives using Rabbit jionts that is all there is to it. Thomas Peavey.


Thanks Thomas now I know mine are California Hives.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm not sure I would make nucs to sell out of 1x stock, I'd use plywood or better the plastic cardboard. Otherwise, you should be charging for the box along with the bees, a good 5 frame box, glued nailed, and painted, is worth way too much to give away!

For my own use I want them quite solid as I don't want to be re-making any, but for sale I'd use something much lighter unless the buyer wanted to pay for the box on top of what I sold the bees for.

Peter


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I make some very cheap and quick nucs to sell bees in. not the sort that are half size Langstroth hives. my permanent nucs are complete with a bottom board inner cover outer cover and built to the same standard as my full size hives. Those do not get sold. I am also looking at just getting the cardboard boxes. the cost is pretty much the same as a cheap wood one but the time in making them is less.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Over the years I have found that lots of my customers wanted a quality built nuc. 

My nucs are built the same as regular Langs, except the top is a feeder top.









cchoganjr


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have to actually go price the lumber for todays prices but here are my estimates.

I am only talking about deep 5 frame nuc bodies so they require a 1X12. The medium depth bodies I can make cheaper than buying them. I also am not able to find 12 foot boards locaaly so only have a price on 10 foot baords.

To make 18 deep 5 frame nucs I show I need 9 10 foot 1X12's at $20.15 each for a total of $194.68 with taxes. This makes each box cost $10.81

I can buy them from Mann Lake for $9.50 each no taxes. Since my order is over $100 there is no shipping.

It requires 58 inches of board to make a 5 frame nuc box. a 10' board is 120 inches. two nucs from a 10 foot board will use 116 of those inches not including cut off.

A 12 foot board leaves approximately a 28 inch scrap. this will make an additional pair of ends or one additional side. Using ten foot boards only leaves 4 inches or less of wasted board.

My price on the 1X12 is based upon an actual price from a receipt for a 10' 1X8 at $13.15 each. I simply multiplied that price by 1.5 since prices here remain linear. I must have added it in my head to get the $20.15 price per board because it is actually $19.72. It does not matter the price once taxes are added will be more than the mann lake price.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Daniel Y.. Your estimates are very close for current prices in my area also.

The way I am able to make nuc boxes, bottom boards, and tops, is, I have nothing in the lumber. I am in with some building contractors and I get 1 X 12, 1 X 8, and 1 X 4 , cutoffs when they build houses and commercial buildings. The scrap, short pieces of Advantec from one house will make a lot of bottom boards and the feeder tops. I have even made a few nucs completely from Advantec, but, I normally save it for tops and bottoms.

The only cost I have in the nucs is glue, nails, electricity, and labor. I mark the nucs up, if the customer wants to keep the nuc so that I also make money on the nuc. If the customer returns the nuc, I will refund the cost of the nuc. Very few return them, they want to keep the nuc for their own use later on.

I can't stress enough how important it is to get as much of your lumber as you can for free. My favorite price.

Here is a photo of a nuc made from Advantec. I like Advantec much better than plywood for nucs, but, I like 1 X 12 better. In this area, Advantec is used for subflooring in virtually all houses and commercial buildings. One building will have a lot of short pieces of Advantec. 1 X 12 is used for roofing sheeting. 









cchoganjr


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

I've found a jointer to be the fastest at trimming the end pieces










Tip:
The material cost of the top bar is 50% of the frame cost when you make them yourself, but you can salvage 2" x wood easily for free from new constructon home site scrap piles. (1000 salvaged top bars will buy you a nice used band saw)


Don


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