# Yearly expenses estimate NEW - 175 hives - please input!



## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Are these your expenses?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

No sir, just the estimated ones for when I expand my own operation.


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

I don't see any labor and the related expenses. You doing it all yourself?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Steve10 said:


> You doing it all yourself?


Oh yeah I am!


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

First of all, I have no idea, but I found it an interesting question. Transporting bees is a new world to me. You are looking at around $30,000 there in expenses, and I was wondering where your profit is coming from. Last time I looked, $120 for two deeps was the going rate for pollination services. I may be wrong. That equates to $21,000 gross pollination income. There is a $9,000 gap there.


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Poor guy....stuck with the worst kind of employee!! Seriously, do you already own the truck you'll need? Feeding sub and/or syrup? How many colonies do you already have? can you raise your own queens in the summer?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Ok...here is my whole estimate.

EXPENSES:

(One time)
Acquire hives: $21,000
Transport: $6,720?
Frames: $1,200
Queen excluders: $460
Truck: $4,000?


(Yearly - 175 hives)

Feed: $4,500
Yard registration: $50
Forklift rental: $600
Transport to almonds: $13,420?
Extractor rental: $700
Broker fees @ $20 per hive: $3,500
Requeening: $3,500
Honey packaging: $3,000
Gas: $3,000
Truck insurance + maintenance: $1,200
Loss: $2,850 
Treatments: $875
Nuc supplies (boxes, frames, etc): $6,000

Total: $43,195


INCOME
(Yearly)

Honey: $21,875
Nucs: $19,500
Pollination: $26,250

Total: $67,625

TOTAL (yearly) NET: $24,430


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Only $3,000.00 for Gas? Are your bees in a yard behind your house? $3,000.00 seems low. But it has been a while since I had 175 hives.

Estimating a Profit is encouraging, but you'll probably be closer to break even than Profit, much or none. But it would be nice.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Whew! That's better than the first partial estimate. I would definitely be looking into raising my own queens, acquiring my CDL, and building my own supplies such as nuc boxes etc. you will save a TON of money. You might even cut your bill in half that way. Then again, you may be considering that already. To me though, if you could keep your hives at home, each hive make 50 lbs of surplus, that is 8,750 lbs of honey. IF you sold it at market/retail price, you are looking at $52,500 in just honey. I'd set up a local honey store! Then, add whatever you get out of nucs. But, that's just me and I'm not suggesting you do that. I like to play with ideas. Taking your bees to California may be the most rewarding beekeeping experience you will ever have.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

TalonRedding said:


> But, that's just me and I'm not suggesting you do that. I like to play with ideas.


As long as we agree that we are just playing. These exercises are fun, I guess. But they are simply speculation. western will have a better idea when he fills out next years taxes.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> western will have a better idea when he fills out next years taxes.


huh...I guess so. Kinda counting on that!


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Let me reiterate and emphasize that I am JUST PLAYING with ideas!  they are most certainly speculation. It's Western's decision all the way. 
I'm becoming leery of giving input anymore due to the fact that I can't see peoples' faces during these "conversations", and they can't see mine, and then everyone takes things the wrong way and gets offended. I guess I should use emoticons more often.  :s


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Knowing a few comm beekeepers from Wyoming, and from driving through I would say that 50 lbs would be tough to make regularly. Focus on higher numbers for pollinating and less honey production.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

To be honest, when I read the first post I just sat back and thought "here we go!..."

It is nice to know I am not the only person building up numbers and making predictions getting roasted on here. Good luck with everything!


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

JoshW said:


> To be honest, when I read the first post I just sat back and thought "here we go!..."
> 
> It is nice to know I am not the only person building up numbers and making predictions getting roasted on here. Good luck with everything!


I know exactly what you mean. I'm actually beginning to learn less about bees on Beesource and more about communicating via the written word. I'm great at reports, but the worlds worst at correspondence.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Don't exspect 100% of you're hives to make grade for almonds. Maybe estimate 75%


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

babybee said:


> Knowing a few comm beekeepers from Wyoming, and from driving through I would say that 50 lbs would be tough to make regularly. Focus on higher numbers for pollinating and less honey production.


Not at all unheard of. I averaged 69 lbs per hive this last season. My former partner averaged 62. And the Bryant Honey (7000 hives) north of us averaged a whoppin' 110lbs to the hive.



JoshW said:


> Good luck with everything!


Thank you sir!



KQ6AR said:


> Don't expect 100% of you're hives to make grade for almonds. Maybe estimate 75%


Good info, thanks.


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

I run a 150 colony operation. I migrate from Virginia to Florida (Second Year) and am now looking at purchasing some land in Florida verses renting. I am praying that I make it to 300 colonies this year depending on what happens after Almonds and the oranges in Florida. Sending some colonies with a local (Florida) large beekeeper. It has taken me three years to get to this point. I work by myself, and my wife helps out. I have students who also help and a friend who is a big help when traveling to florida. In addition to the above we have expenses for selling our honey, bottling, advertising, direct mail, office supplies, accounting, legal, inspections, insurance for the colonies, auto and liability, and travel. This is our first year going to the Almonds so we will see how things turn out. Currently working towards CDL, making equipment for the expansion and getting ready for package bee season.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

So Matt,
How do the above expenses compare to yours? Any adjustments?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

some things change as you grow such as the honey price recieved. no 6 dollar per lb. once it goes into the barrel your more at the mercy of the packer. expect $2.25+ per lb. big difference to bottom line. good luck


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

Western, see below:


Feed: $4,500 (mine 2600 in 2013)
Yard registration: $50 (none)
Forklift rental: $600 (784 x 2 in 2013)
Transport to almonds: $13,420? (45.00 per colony in 2013)
Extractor rental: $700 (Own my own 20 frame extractor)
Broker fees @ $20 per hive: $3,500 (none)
Requeening: $3,500 (2000.00 in 2013)
Honey packaging: $3,000 (bottling our own and selling it at 6-10.00 a pound, 5345.00 in 2013)
Gas: $3,000 (Gas and travel 9100.00 in 2013)
Truck insurance + maintenance: $1,200 (Insurance: 1200.00/Main 5600.00
Loss: $2,850 (28 colonies in 2013)
Treatments: $875 (1500+ in 2013)


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Is that a 30 year old truck you are buying for $4000?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

odfrank said:


> Is that a 30 year old truck you are buying for $4000?


prolly!


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

matt1954 said:


> I run a 150 colony operation. I migrate from Virginia to Florida (Second Year) and am now looking at purchasing some land in Florida verses renting.


Nice work Matt. 

What you have right now was something of a goal for me in the next few years. Personally, I didn't really know what to do when I'm between 50 and 100 hives. 50 became too many to treat as a hobby, but not enough to really get into pollination contracts with. Hives don't put on enough honey around here to be really profitable (35 lbs per hive state average, with some years in the 15-20 lb hive range), at least as the only business. And queen production (while a blast) requires such specialized equipment, you really need to be ready to get big into it. It's refreshing to see someone not too far from me making a go at it. Congrats.

In doing the math in my head, it didn't really seem profitable for someone in the central eastern seaboard to run 50-100 hives to oranges in FL, Almonds in CA, Blueberries in ME, or Apples in MA (just to name a few). I thought we were more stuck with what we can do locally. Good to see you breaking out of that. 



matt1954 said:


> This is our first year going to the Almonds so we will see how things turn out.


So this upcoming year, as in February, will be the first Almond trip for you? Or was 2013 your first trip to Almonds, with this upcoming year being your second? 

Just checking, cause your expenses appear to indicate that you went in 2013.



matt1954 said:


> Transport to almonds: $13,420? (45.00 per colony in 2013)


Is this an average? Or did you contract with someone to transport literally on a per colony basis?



matt1954 said:


> Broker fees @ $20 per hive: $3,500 (none)


If you don't mind me asking, how did a Va guy with 150 hives get an Almond contract without a broker? What rate did you get?



matt1954 said:


> Gas: $3,000 (Gas and travel 9100.00 in 2013)


Which I assume counts your (and the bee's) travel to and from FL, as well as your travel to and from CA, but not the cost of the bee transport to CA, right?

Thanks for the insight. Extremely helpful.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

My bees haven't made me enough money to afford land in SC, let alone FL. Guess I don't work hard enough.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Did I miss the expense line for 90 percent CCD losses, that no one knows how to cure?

And the 4000 dollar truck needs more repair costs projected, unless you are also a mechanic.

Good Luck, 

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How do you expense colony loss Roland? Only way I know of is Queens Purchased Expense or Package Bees Expense.


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## Sadler91 (Nov 6, 2011)

Bought my truck for 4500. Paid for it twice in repairs :lpf:


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>And the 4000 dollar truck needs more repair costs projected, unless you are also a mechanic.

Making payments on a new truck might cost less than repairs on a $4000 truck. I bought a used 722 Bobcat in 1982 that was like that, Ford Pinto engine.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

westernbeekeeper said:


> Yearly expenses for 175 hives
> 
> Yes, I probably forgot some things, but that's why I'm posting. Please comment.
> 
> ...



See answers filled out inside your "quote"


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

odfrank said:


> >And the 4000 dollar truck needs more repair costs projected, unless you are also a mechanic.
> 
> Making payments on a new truck might cost less than repairs on a $4000 truck. I bought a used 722 Bobcat in 1982 that was like that, Ford Pinto engine.


And know you cant take the truck into the state of CA. Also why are you budgeting for queen excluders. There are plenty of ways to do it without them. I don't use them and run 300 hives just fine.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sadler91 said:


> Bought my truck for 4500. Paid for it twice in repairs :lpf:


Bought my F-450 brand new. Haven't put another $50,000.00 in it yet. But I have bought other peoples problems in the past and found Sadler's statement to be my experience. I can laugh about it now.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Honey-4-All said:


> How about vehicle depreciation . . .


Are we talking about cash accounting, or accrual accounting?

Most of his expenses appeared to be based on a cash system. If that's the case, he should count the truck purchase/maintenance in the year he used it, and not depreciate it over a number of years. 

That doesn't mean he can't do that on his tax return though. Tax accounting and day-to-day accounting are miles apart, and should be remembered as such.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Feed: $4,500 Maybe? depends on the year. *Yah*
Yard registration: $50 Pretty fixed *yep*
Forklift rental: $600 How many times you renting? *3 times a year?*
Transport to almonds: $13,420? Bit steep! you could get a load to Florida and back for this amount and have some left over. *I just found out that is will be half this*
Extractor rental: $700 Buy a cheap one yourself. Have your brother crank it by hand till you can buy a better one. *I have a 20-frame maxant power extractor*
Broker fees @ $20 per hive: $3,500 Close *good*
Requeening: $3,500 LOW!!!! *will adjust*
Honey packaging: $3,000 what is this for? *BOTTLES AND BUCKETS*
Gas: $3,000 DEPENDS ON WHERE YOUR YARDS ARE AT? *Within a half hour of home*
Truck insurance + maintenance: $1,200 ABOUT RIGHT for insurance not sure about tires oils and brakes etc.... *you're right*
Loss: $2,850 WHATS THIS? *colony loss*
Treatments: $875 Depends on what you use and how often. *right*

How about vehicle depreciation, Suits, hive tools,liability insurance, trips to bee conventions for "edumacation" ?? *will do some figuring*


_See bold answers above_


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

SQKCRK asked me:

How do you expense colony loss Roland? Only way I know of is Queens Purchased Expense or Package Bees Expense. 

Replacement bee expense
Replacement queen expense

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, that makes sense.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Guess I don't work hard enough.


And here I was thinking you need to get your bees to work harder. After all, if one colony makes twice the honey, your overall efficiency of production increases.


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## Crabo (Jan 17, 2012)

Do you already have all your woodenware for these hives? We have bought a lot of our stuff from beekeepers who went out of business and saved a lot of money.

It takes a lot of sanding and painting, but it saves a lot of money.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Crabo said:


> Do you already have all your woodenware for these hives?


Nearly all of it. Been accumulating over the years.


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

Specialkayme said:


> Nice work Matt.
> 
> What you have right now was something of a goal for me in the next few years. Personally, I didn't really know what to do when I'm between 50 and 100 hives. 50 became too many to treat as a hobby, but not enough to really get into pollination contracts with. Hives don't put on enough honey around here to be really profitable (35 lbs per hive state average, with some years in the 15-20 lb hive range), at least as the only business. And queen production (while a blast) requires such specialized equipment, you really need to be ready to get big into it. It's refreshing to see someone not too far from me making a go at it. Congrats.
> 
> ...


*No problem*.


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## Maddox65804 (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks for the thread. I am also growing so this is very interesting to me. I don't run almonds. Just nucs, honey and local pollination.

My question: If they start running to almonds, won't their yearly losses be increase?

I have been leery of almonds because although the money looks good on the front end, it seems as if we end up losing so much in hive health that the long term losses eat up the profit margin. The long term cost of losing hives through increased disease/pest/virus transmission and stress seems hardly worth it unless an operation is running thousands of hives and can make an economy of scale.

I don't see those increased losses being factored here.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I hope everything works out great for you , I know asking questions on this site is a hard thing to do , you get more questions thrown at you rather than an answer . 
It's a lot like asking a Kung-fu master a question , it always is a question for an answer LOL . 

I will be close to the number of hives you have for rent in the spring and I am doing some projections as well. I find it hard to get everything covered , but I am using a miscellaneous section for things I might not think of right now and I think We will be okay , mainly because I won't have to travel as far as most migratory Beekeepers . My distance to the fields I will be pollinating will be a max of 2 hours 1 way . I did find a truck for 2800+ tx and yes it needs a little work , but for another couple grand it will be a nice flat deck truck and it is a 2004 W5500 GMC Diesel , not a 30 year old truck


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

The only bees that will die in almonds is the 5 percent that lose their queens in transit. And sometimes I find fungicide issues with the bees coming back. Very small price to pay for the added income.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

I have bought many used trucks in the past. One time a Chevy 6500 with a cat c7 in it. It had rather low miles on the odometer so I considered it a sweet deal. I figured the truck would be good to about 500k and it had around half of that. Long story short I took it to the shop after noticing oil dripping out of the blow by and it had super high hours from city driving or idling. So a rebuilt c7 is like a 15000 deal. Something to think about.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Benjamin:

I was looking at your income forecast and it looks like you figure on selling 1 nuc per hive at roughly $110 per nuc to generate close to 20 k in bee sales. This may be a bit optimistic but is possible to find customers. Depending on the time they are available you will likely have to purchase queens so the nucs are available so the buyers have a chance of making some sort of crop. You may need 200 queens at $20 each to make up your 175 nucs so that would be more than your projected needs. Remember this does not include any for yourself. We loose about 3-4% queens per month. I suspect that if you run to California that number is higher.

I do not see any money for California other than hive transport. So you are putting them on the truck and saying a prayer for them, and hope for the best. I think this is not a bad strategy given the limited hive numbers. Pretty sure if you personally go to Cali, your costs go way up. This could be offset by working there. Probably no shortage of work at certains times. Experience will be priceless.

When I had around that number of hives I mad made less money than that. Expenses are always higher, income lower. If you hit 10k profit at the end of the year, good on you.

Jean-Marc


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## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

babybee said:


> So a rebuilt c7 is like a 15000 deal. Something to think about.


Why so high? It's a sleeved block so 6 new piston packs and big end rod bearings and you're back on the road. No external high pressure fuel lines on a HEUI engine and oil pump and cam timing wouldn't be messed with. Solid lifters so just have to do lash adjustment on reassembly. You can rebuild that in your home garage with an a-frame lift to get the head out of the way.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

jean-marc said:


> looks like you figure on selling 1 nuc per hive at roughly $110 per nuc to generate close to 20 k in bee sales. This may be a bit optimistic but is possible to find customers.


I have no problem selling out $170 per nuc. Hmmm....


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Ok, well at this price that changes things a lot. After a run to California, you should have enough good hives to split off the 110-115 nucs you need to hit the 20k in bee sales.

Jean-Marc


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

What's the secret to selling a nuc for 170? Most guys I sell to want to negotiate me off of my 70 dollar price tag.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I haven't tried fully digesting your numbers Ben but I do have some questions and observations. Where will this nucing operation be taking place and how much attrition in your returning almond pollinators are you planning on? Early April splits up north can be pretty iffy depending on the weather, possibly even too early to get queen shipments up north. 
A word of caution here. Your first priority is to your own bees. You won't recognize your returning bees. Many will be quite strong some will be struggling and a few will be dead. Don't underestimate how much of the returning resources will be needed to rebuild the weak and dead hives. Going through post almond bees is both the best and the worst of times. Additionally if you are leaving all of your own queens you had better make plenty of extra splits for your own operation as many will certainly fail as the season progresses. I wish you the best Ben, hope for the best and plan for the worst.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

babybee said:


> What's the secret to selling a nuc for 170


Sell them in Canada


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

babybee said:


> What's the secret to selling a nuc for 170? Most guys I sell to want to negotiate me off of my 70 dollar price tag.





Ian said:


> Sell them in Canada


Or in WY. Both places are hard to get bees.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

I have sold a few hundred to a guy out of Casper for the past few years. He always negotiates me down. Just good business I am sure. If you can sell a nuc for 170 you may as well buy from me and middle man them. As far as Canada, I think the border is closed to US bees. Right?


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