# Advice Needed on Cell Starter



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Ok, so yesterday I decided after seeing the progress being made by the bees and having some time this weekend, I thought it would be a good time to set up a swarm box and get grafting. I took an 8 frame TBH, shook in about 3 lbs. of nurse bees from an extremely strong hive for the time of year. I then set up the cell builder with two frames of pollen to go on either side of the graft bar, two frames open nectar to the outside of pollen, a frame of capped brood to the outside of one nectar frame and empty comb on the outside of the other nectar frame. Empty bars filled the remaining space. I moved a smaller hive from its original location to redirect the foragers from it to the cell builder. The cell builder was packed with bees. Placed my grafts in about two hours later. Checked today, and got an abysmal 4 of 13 take. I felt good on the grafts, so I'm pretty sure they were viable larva. Any suggestions? Should I be feeding the cell builder given the time of year? I'm determined to figure this out. Thanks beforehand. I've got another bar done and placed in the cell starter, but not expecting different results.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

Sounds like you have the right idea. Yes, i would keep the feeder full while they are making cells. My guess is that it is your grafts. I know you said you felt good about them but, it sounds like you did everything else right. If you can't really watch the larva slide off your tool into the cup then you need some kind of magnification.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

johnq, I was using a lighted magnifying visor and for the first time could see quite well. Last year I was going blind and had nearly as good of results. The larvae came out nicely, all centered in RJ in the cups. I really think it's pointing to the cell builder. Given it's so early as mentioned in a couple of responses as a potential issue in SP's TF thread, perhaps copious feeding is in order. I'd really like to salvage this cell builder if possible.

Editing as I didn't mean to sound as though the grafting isn't a potential issue. It certainly could be, I just felt pretty confident. I'll see how this second round goes.


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## Bob Anderson (Jun 13, 2014)

Nordak - sorry but I didn't quite understand your original post. It sounded like you set up a starter swarm box as well as a cell builder colony but you never mentioned putting the grafts into the starter box for 24 hours or so. Was your success rate of 4 out of 13 based on the results from the starter box or the cell builder? Edit - I guess rereading the title of your post that it is the success rate of the starter box.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

You could try using a cut strip of comb as a fast way to compare and see if its the bees or the graft. 
cut it a little smaller then then a blank or upside down top bar and hold it in place with a few wraps of fishing line
page 28
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1hLGJYX3QKDU3dXS0JkeUNRWlU/view
I had what I felt was good success with it, but I never had need of grafting, so my only comparison is letting them make there own on fresh comb in a starter/finisher/walk away and cut out cells

I am confused as to your process I see a "starter" "cell builder " and a "Swarm box" and then you state you concern about salvaging the cell builder, witch says to me its not queen right.... (to me anyway) a swarm box or starter is usually used with a queen right finisher/cell builder 
if you haven't seen this(and you very well may have), give it a read, outlines a nuc sized, free flying, queen less starter/finisher and how to keep it up and running all season http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ing-using-the-Joseph-Clemens-Starter-Finisher


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Bob Anderson-Apologies for the confusion regarding terminology. I am using a starter/finisher system. The 4/13 is the acceptance rate after 24 hours. My thinking with only trying for around 10 cells, a strong starter/finisher would suffice. I'm just trying to pinpoint what I might be missing.

Hopefully that answers your questions as well msl. I might try some comb strips if I can't get anything to take on this second bar. It might very well be a timing matter, perhaps too early, as has been mentioned in a different thread. I may just keep it going until the bees get in the mood to draw out some cells or I get better at grafting, whichever comes first. If it's grafting, and I get at least 4 to take again, I'll be up to 8, which I'd be ok with. 

Thank you.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I'll just copy my questions from the other forum.

Ok, so something is wrong. You should be getting 10+ cells from 13 grafts. How are you setting up the cell builder. Where are you getting your nurse bees? How are you harvesting the nurse bees. How many frames of nurse bees? When you transfer the grafts to the finisher, how many have been accepted. How strong is the finisher? How is the finisher set up? Where is the loss happening? In the starter or the finisher? Are you feeding the finisher, or is there a good flow on? 

Are you attempting to raise cells when the conditions aren't right?

Lots of questions. Something wrong at any stage means results that are less than acceptable.

Are the bees in Arkansas starting swarm cells? I don't really agree that queen rearing can be started once you have mature drones. Do the bees start cells as soon as they have mature drones. I don't think so. So first, I would wait until the bees told me it was time. 

*"I took an 8 frame TBH, shook in about 3 lbs. of nurse bees from an extremely strong hive for the time of year."*

Yep, strong for the time of year, but strong enough to start swarm cells? How did you determine you had 3 lbs. of *nurse bees*? 

You moved a "smaller" hive to harvest foragers for the cell builder. You mean a "weak" hive? That won't do. 

Cell builders have to be fed syrup if they aren't on a good flow. Are they? Did you? 

I think all of the above contributed to the low acceptance of your grafts. The biggest issue I see in your setup, is starting too soon.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Thanks Mr. Palmer for taking the time. I see some issues you laid out, in particular to feeding and timing that are most likely the culprit of my poor outcome. The bees aren't quite in swarm mode yet, so my expecting them to build cells without simulating some form of good flow is most likely at fault. Plan for now is to feed the cell starter, get them some additional capped brood, additional nurse bees and stores if necessary, try again in a week or so. I'm determined to get there.


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## AmericanApiaries (Jan 27, 2017)

Hey Nordak!

I am in the same boat as you in that i'm fairly new to queen rearing, and have experienced the same poor viability. At first I thought I was killing most of the larvae during the transfer process, so I bought a USB microscope and used that to help me see the larvae. With that I could see them moving and breathing so I knew that was not my problem. I had much better success when I switched from a 5 frame nuc to Michael Palmer's method. I went from around 20% viability to up around 70-80%. I did not want to do this because I only have around 50 colonies and it is a more resource intensive method. It seems like it is a case of you get out what you put in. I have seen on here that people have been able to get great cells with a nucleus cell starter. I am not sure what the difference is between what these people are doing and what I am doing. Perhaps they just have a better environment for rearing queens than I do. 
One more thing that I tried that I think helped; I have 5 different spots where I keep my bees and I try to set up my cell starter in the yard that seems to be experiencing the best nectar flow. I do this by monitoring the weight of a strong hive in each yard to gauge the flow. Good luck with your bees this year!

Jonas


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

AmericanApiaries said:


> Hey Nordak!
> 
> I am in the same boat as you in that i'm fairly new to queen rearing, and have experienced the same poor viability. At first I thought I was killing most of the larvae during the transfer process, so I bought a USB microscope and used that to help me see the larvae. With that I could see them moving and breathing so I knew that was not my problem. I had much better success when I switched from a 5 frame nuc to Michael Palmer's method. I went from around 20% viability to up around 70-80%. I did not want to do this because I only have around 50 colonies and it is a more resource intensive method. It seems like it is a case of you get out what you put in. I have seen on here that people have been able to get great cells with a nucleus cell starter. I am not sure what the difference is between what these people are doing and what I am doing. Perhaps they just have a better environment for rearing queens than I do.
> One more thing that I tried that I think helped; I have 5 different spots where I keep my bees and I try to set up my cell starter in the yard that seems to be experiencing the best nectar flow. I do this by monitoring the weight of a strong hive in each yard to gauge the flow. Good luck with your bees this year!
> ...


Thank you for the information and encouragement, Jonas. I've still got lots to learn, and if nothing else this experience has given me a good education on the importance of timing in relation to starters. Hats off to those who are doing this with success. Most things in beekeeping have come rather easily to me, queen rearing at this level has not. It just makes me more determined to piece the puzzle together. 

Thanks again all for the feedback.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

Too early in Arkansas. We start around April 15th on the grafts giving us virgins around the 28th. Too much weather ups and downs and low foraging. A little pollen coming in now but nectar sources are scarce. Blackberries make the difference.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Please keep updating Nordak. We are going to start dabbling in queen rearing his year if possible and I am very interested in your experience. I already have April 15th down on the calendar as my first graft attempt so it sounds like that is a good start. Good luck.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

It's becoming more apparent that is the case, hillbillybees. I'm still going to try as early as next week as I've got the cell starter built and a new plan of attack. They'll let me know what I can or can't do I suppose. Thanks, your timeline makes sense. I think I was a bit fooled by the early build up and mild winter.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

dlbrightjr said:


> Please keep updating Nordak. We are going to start dabbling in queen rearing his year if possible and I am very interested in your experience. I already have April 15th down on the calendar as my first graft attempt so it sounds like that is a good start. Good luck.


Will do, and Thanks. Best to you and your bees.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Nordak said:


> Thank you for the information and encouragement, Jonas. I've still got lots to learn, and if nothing else this experience has given me a good education on the importance of timing in relation to starters. Hats off to those who are doing this with success. Most things in beekeeping have come rather easily to me, queen rearing at this level has not. It just makes me more determined to piece the puzzle together.
> 
> Thanks again all for the feedback.


Maybe using a Cloake board on a good strong hive the first few times would help you to see the strength of the bees in the starter/finisher and give you something to aim for when setting up separate starters and finishers.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> Maybe using a Cloake board on a good strong hive the first few times would help you to see the strength of the bees in the starter/finisher and give you something to aim for when setting up separate starters and finishers.


That might be helpful, and I have an 8 frame lang that I could utilize for that purpose. I think the strength factor is there, but I could be totally wrong. Something to consider and gives me more options. Thanks, Clyde.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Nordak said:


> That might be helpful, and I have an 8 frame lang that I could utilize for that purpose. I think the strength factor is there, but I could be totally wrong. Something to consider and gives me more options. Thanks, Clyde.


That my thought too. I was very surprised at how many bees are involved in starting and finishing cells. A continuous army of them!
I had a lot of trouble using single 5 frame medium nucs and couldn't figure out why until I saw what goes on in a successful starter/finisher using the Cloake board. There just wasn't enough bees in med nuc to do it. I use the Cloake all the time now to make my queens.
Use it when queen rearing conditions are right (some flow and pollen, weather, drones, strong hive) and it's a easy sure bet.


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

I like to echo Nordak as well. I only had 4 of 17 take on the 72 hour inspection. My failure was the grafter broke after the third one. I had to rig it to make the rest of the way. I know I damaged larva.

Added syrup one hour after placing it in the starter/finisher. 

I however do have drones flying.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Today I went in and checked for errant cells per Ray Marler's advice via chat. That guy is a fountain of knowledge. Sure enough, I had 3 e-cells being built on what I thought was purely capped brood. They look like nice cells as the wax was relatively new and chock full of RJ. I'm going to utilize those when I pull cells next week. I shook in more nurse bees from another hive. The nuc box is busting with bees, pouring out strong. Gave them some 1:1. I expect better results next week as they will be entirely broodless, have a steady supply of feed, foraging bees bringing in pollen and a box overflowing with bees. I noticed on the hive I shook nurse bees from, they'd built a queen cup. Sure enough, it had an egg in it.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Sometimes when a starter only starts a few cells I just pull them all and replace with new ones a day later. This often results in a very high acceptance of the newest cells.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Richard Cryberg said:


> Sometimes when a starter only starts a few cells I just pull them all and replace with new ones a day later. This often results in a very high acceptance of the newest cells.


I'm tempted to do that very thing, but figure I might as well make use of the few cells they started. Any drawback to waiting?


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

I separated out a cell builder last Thursday afternoon. I did a Taranov split, but put some of the non-flying bees back. I ran out of daylight then the weather turned bad for the weekend, so I didn't get a graft frame in. I hadn't pulled the brood yet, but it was all from the queen I would graft so I figured I would use whatever cells they created this first round.

Well, I checked them last night. Out of at least 10 frames with rings of eggs/larva they pulled exactly 1 queen cell. There were still 1 day old larva, so maybe they will do another. 

My assumptions:
1. I wanted non-swarmy bees and I choose well.
2. They didn't have enough bees of the right age
3. There was too much open brood and they thought more weak queen supersede, than no queen.

Hopefully the weather cooperates on Saturday AM so I can drop in a graft frame. There should be a lot of new week old nurse bees by then.


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

I'm watching this thread closely. My ag zone is similar and I was planning on doing my first graft in two weeks. Maybe I should wait until April.

Is a cell starter made up the same as the queenless part of a cut down split? That is what I was planning to use.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I suspect you will do much better next week when you remove all cells and put in another round of grafts. Great that you are feeding syrup now as I agree with others it's probably a bit early for good nectar flows. Spring pollen flows usually come first before the nectar flows. I'm assuming you have a good amount of pollen left in the builder still, and they are actively bringing it in now, so probably OK not to worry about boosting it again.

Now you have new worries for next week...
Having enough resources for making up the needed amount of mating nucs
Having enough drones in the area for mating the amount of virgins you'll have all at one time.

Best of luck in this early season Nordak!

PS
Hope the weather holds good for you.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Drones-check. Resources for mating nucs-check. Weather-I hope so. Looks decent. This time's going to be a winner, I can feel it. Can't be much worse. 

Thanks for all your help, Ray. I'm looking forward to following your progress this year and glad the rains have subsided. I know it's a welcome relief for you and the bees.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Alright, so the new game plan is I'm going to carefully move the comb with e-cells to a mating nuc with stores and some added shakes of bees to let them finish them so I can get on with the grafting. I'm going to scrap my first attempts as I'm not thoroughly impressed with the results and don't want to waste resources on subpar queens. It seems the bees put their efforts into making their own cells which are much more impressive. Tentative date is for tomorrow, possibly Thursday. I'll keep updating. At the very least, I'm getting better at grafting through practice.

Again, thanks to all the posters who have given their insight along the way and to those who have shared their own cell starter issues.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Good luck. Wow!! 1:45 am. You win. I finished checking my hives for strength and seeing if they needed fed and was in before midnight. I thought I put in late hours.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Alright, so I moved the started cells to their own mating nuc as planned and inserted more grafts yesterday. Checked just now, and it looks like 8/13 were accepted. Not the 10 I was shooting for, but given previous results, I'm pretty pleased with it. Whether they will finish all 8 is another matter.


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