# Wondering about TF and Colony Size



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I've long had drummed into my head the message that if you want to make honey you need lots of bees. Boxes full of them.

Building up large colonies for honey production has been the thing to do.

As I start to learn about ferals and native pollinators, large colony sizes don't seem to be the natural priority. Bees in the wild seem to prefer (I haven't asked them and so don't know for sure:lookout smaller cavities.

I wonder what this means for the two main business purposes of beekeeping - honey production and pollination.

We know Varroa pressure can get really high in large colonies. And I find Dr. Seeley's work on pest/disease spread and hive concentration intriguing.

I'm fairly certain there is no one size fits all answer. Squarepeg reports good results with his stock. StevenG lists a variety of stocks that do well in variety of locations. Perhaps the moose in the corner (hey I'm living in Maine!) is that all areas of the country are not suitable for keeping TF bees that make (lots of) honey.

In terms of pollination ought the goal to be supplementing the native pollinators? If so we might get away with fewer and smaller colonies.

I was talking with a local organic (not certified but no treatments of any sort) blueberry grower this past week who is thinking about adding honey bees to his mix (which includes a dairy goat herd.) From what I can tell natives will successfully pollinate his crop perhaps 1 year in 4 - so it doesn't appear that we need too many honey bees to achieve regular pollination. There are other issues like having the honey bees ready to pollinate about a month after the end of winter.

Unfortunately for my organic blueberry grower friend this is black bear country - so beekeepers are strongly encouraged by economics to consolidate their hives behind electric fences.

And I should mention the conventional blueberry grower on the next property.

I'm rambling here - but sometimes action plans germinate from my own ramblings and other's responses/reactions. At least that is what I am hoping for here!


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

So your blueberry farmer is headed for the land of milk and honey.

Wild bees (and tame bees for that matter) do not care about pollination or about making extra honey. Their goal is to make more hives and thus expand their overall numbers. Managed hives attempt to divert this natural force to accomplish our goals rather than theirs.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Andrew, there is a nugget that is on Mel Disselkoen's website. I am paraphrasing, it is something to the effect of "You don't need large populations all the time, only for your major honey flows". 
The conventional way of keeping bees in this area is in 2 deeps or the 3 deep U. of MN. system and to treat them for mites. A simple method that works is to use Mel Disselkoen's method to expand an overwintered colony in the spring to make 3 or 4 colonies to overwinter. I do that, but then I put them in 5 frame nucs, add another level, and overwinter them that way using Mike Palmer's principles. 
I find that the overwintered 5 over 5 colony is easily expanded up to a production colony by July. I am of the opinion that there are benefits that we don't understand in keeping the colony in a cavity closer in size to the one that bees naturally choose as per Seeley.
Lastly, as well as being easy to handle there is another benefit to keeping colonies in smaller sizes - you get more chances at survival as compared to overwintering in larger colonies for the same number of frames dedicated to bees.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Andrew, there is a nugget that is on Mel Disselkoen's website. I am paraphrasing, it is something to the effect of "You don't need large populations all the time, only for your major honey flows".


Funny you should mention Mel - I exchanged e-mails with him earlier this week and ordered his book.


I'll be AFK for most of the day. 3 yards to visit today and my truck doesn't want to start. My solution: have another cup of coffee.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

dsegrest said:


> Wild bees (and tame bees for that matter) do not care about pollination or about making extra honey. Their goal is to make more hives and thus expand their overall numbers. Managed hives attempt to divert this natural force to accomplish our goals rather than theirs.


This makes sense - I guess where I'm headed is at least in this area managing bees in imitation of their native brethren. (And yes I know most hive residents are female) Though there is a _delightful_ goldenrod honey smell in the air right now. (Or I could follow Mel's strategy and plan my buildup to peak in mid to late August)
It is relatively easy to build up colonies to take advantage of the late summer honey flow with conventional strategies; blueberry pollination requires a pollinating force about a month after unwrapping. Different goals for different bees? Now add in TF management and things can get complicated.

Oh well, my coffee cup is now empty.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> I find that the overwintered 5 over 5 colony is easily expanded up to a production colony by July.


Which unfortunately for my area coincides with the end of our honey flow. So my overwintered 5 frame nuc's won't make much surplus unless I add brood and bees from strong overwintered hives.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good thread. ideally for maximizing honey production one would want to have colonies strong enough to exploit the flows without being overly large so as to burn through stores during times of dearth and over winter.

it appears that different strains of bees can vary in this regard, and i even notice variability with my hybrids with regard to how the each colony regulates their population with respect to how much room i give them.

so far i haven't done much equalizing by moving brood around because i wanted to evaluate each colony on its merits to get a feel of which ones gave me the best outcomes to suit my purposes.

but since i am getting only partial success with checkerboarding to prevent swarming, i'm leaning toward equalizing colony strength coming out of winter and performing cut down splits across the board just prior to main flow.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Apis cerana is reported to swarm more than 6 times per year by numerous references and first hand accounts. They appear difficult to keep long term, and traditional Okinawan husbandry seems to consist of seasonally housing caught swarms. South Asian studies on Indonesian A. cerana show the population density is constant for a particular forest eco-type, and swarms are constant.

The reported natural "resistance" of Apis cerana (for reasons of drone exclusivity) has few first hand sources, and may be an "internet meme" that gets endlessly reported but never verified.

A species that is swarming six times a year, but whose population is rare, and stable in overall colony number, is suffering from *very high background mortality*. Otherwise, in a couple of seasons, the landscape would be awash with dripping colonies of bees.

A simple explanation of the natural history characteristics of A. cerana is a co-evolved swarm strategy in response to Varroa. Africanized bees in Mexico show the same tendency.

Swarm frequency is a heritable trait in European bees. It is triggered by some base population size, hence population target size is heritable by extension. 

It is defensible speculation to assume that a very simple co-evolution to Varroa would be a Japanese or African-style swarm pattern (and consequent reduction in mature colony size). This is such a simple phenotype change that this type of genetic drift would happen quickly in the background. Swarming is a negative feedback to QMP levels, and a genetically modulated reduction in QMP concentration would change swarm frequency. Background shifts in phenotype have enormous inertia. 

Genetic adaptation to Varroa should be considered in terms of "information entropy". A highly fragile constellation of allelles such as VSH will break down quickly. Swarm tendency is much more robust. The robust adaption will swamp the fragile one.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> Apis cernua


What is that, you mean Apis cerana?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Juhani, thanks for catching that. I am writing a report on relict California grassland with _*Stipa cernua*_ and my mind caused my fingers to type the wrong epithet. Latin: Cernuus -- stooped or nodding, facefirst. Latin: Cera - wax


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

You have been writing this swarming tendency of cerana and africanized bees before. Makes me wonder, why haven´t I seen swarming for at least 12 years? If swarming really is that important factor in varroa resistance.

It surely helps them, some swarms will, by chance, get less mites, and do better than others. 

The same thing with making nucs. Some nucs will get less mites, BUT: the nucs which will get less mites, will get some, and if they have no other means to fight varroa, they will dye eventually. Or that's what I have been reasoning. I have been doing some theoretical calculations too, starting say with 1000 mites, devided into nucs and motherhive, the same thing happening year after year.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Martin Dettli from Switzerland found in his experiments/survival tests, that smallness is a key strategy of a bee colony to survive varroa. See his report (in German though): http://www.summ-summ.ch/bibl/for/ueberlebensforschung_08.pdf

Martin found surviving colonies having 10,000 bees at the end of May. That is a useless size when it comes to honey production - or even self-sustainability. 

As far as I am informed, small colonies were found in the Gotland project, too. From my own trials I can confirm, that most survivor colonies are small in size. A poor sight, no real strength and when there is a small disturbance, they break down. I am not really sure if survival is the one and only goal. I don't want a living thing like a bee hive to barely survive but to thrive.

Just a thought: I am successfully experimenting with 2 queen-hives. I combine two weaker colonies into one with a vertical division board, horizontal queen excluder and shared honey supers. (=same numbers of boxes like a normal hive). I make the same amount of honey like my production hives (>130 pounds/year) with those hives. So maybe this is the way to go to make use of smaller sized colonies. 

Bernhard


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## Ralf_H (Dec 20, 2013)

Hi!


JWChesnut said:


> ...
> The reported natural "resistance" of Apis cerana (for reasons of drone exclusivity) has few first hand sources, and may be an "internet meme" that gets endlessly reported but never verified.
> ...


The Resistance Mechanism of Apis cerana are well known at least since 1987 and swarming doesn't account to it:
￼"The Resistance Mechanism of the Asian Honey Bee, Apis cerana Fabr., to an Ectoparasitic Mite, Varroa jacobsoni Oudemans"
￼JOURNAL OF INVERTEBRATE PATHOLOGY 49, 54-60 (1987)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/002220118790125X

Best regards
Ralf


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

I´m sure JWChesnut is well aware of the various mechanishms of cerana, but does swarming help, or is it just the way to multiply?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Melifera swarms can carry a lot of mites I have seen that personally.

However Juhani raises a good point. If a hive swarms many times, it could be that by chance or timing, some swarms will have a low mite load. They will do better and continue the species. Clearly though there are other tools in the mite control arsenal.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

JWChesnut said:


> It is defensible speculation ...
> 
> [...]
> 
> Genetic adaptation to Varroa should be considered in terms of "information entropy". A highly fragile constellation of allelles such as VSH will break down quickly. Swarm tendency is much more robust. The robust adaption will swamp the fragile one.


Is that 'should' bound to the condition: 'defensible speculation', or are you claiming a stronger basis for your theory?

Its nothing like what seems to have happened here. The best of my 'survivor' bees appear to be be perfectly good beekeeper bees. I have seen very little swarming thus far, and they are managing varroa themselves perfectly well. 

Perhaps giving them room to expand into, and the opportunity to build comb continuously makes a difference. 

Of course bees in small cavities will swarm. Don't ever let them get the impression they're cramped.

Mike (UK)


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

hmmm regarding colony size, survivability, etc... From what I've read in the journals and here, small cell does not seem to help much re: varroa control. 

Since 2005 I have noticed that of my colonies that survive winter, if the queen is healthy and viable, and I control swarming, they will make a surplus crop. I have had hive come out of winter with two-three frames of brood and go gangbusters. But most surprising, I have had baseball size clusters come out of winter, and by the end of May they're overflowing two deep brood boxes. So the conclusion I draw is cluster size at the end of winter is no guaranteed predictor of the ability of the colony to thrive and produce a good surplus honey crop. 

fwiw I run my colonies in two deep boxes for overwintering.
Regards,
Steven


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Ralf_H said:


> Hi!
> 
> 
> The Resistance Mechanism of Apis cerana are well known at least since 1987 and swarming doesn't account to it:
> ...


Yet, V destructor and V. jacobsoni remain endemic and extensive to all Asian populations of A. cerana.

My central objection is -- population biology doesn't lie -- the reproductive effort evolved by A. cerana (6-8 swarms/season) implies massive mortality. What are the causes and consequences of population replacement at 8x carrying capacity per year. That implies accelerated adaptation (Bispham would love it).


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> What are the causes and consequences of population replacement at 8x carrying capacity per year. That implies accelerated adaptation (Bispham would love it).


Your point is that massive swarming has helped _Apis cerana _and AHB to change genetically? (AND when most of the bees in honey production don´t swarm so much, it is harder for them to adapt)


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Your point is that massive swarming has helped _Apis cerana _and AHB to change genetically? (AND when most of the bees in honey production don´t swarm so much, it is harder for them to adapt)


When most of the bees in honey production are treated there is no pressure to adapt. It can't happen. In any case most of the bees in honey production are bred. Whatever changes might be occuring are breeding changes, not adaptations. About the only adapting these bees have done is adapt to the needs and ministrations of humans.

I'm enjoying the speculative theorising about the role of swarming in _apis cerana's_ fight with varroa, and its (speculative) application to European bees. I particularly like the chasm between the speculative theory and the evidence provided by my own bees. 

Bispham.


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