# Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?



## A'sPOPPY (Oct 13, 2010)

Colonies will allow any drone to enter a hive, can you be sure all the drones in any given hive came from that queen ?


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

It's just an idea thus far. I haven't said it would work 100%. 
There must be a few things to iron out in my idea. But at least,
it's a seed for thought. 

Ok, if you want to go there A's Poppy. Why not have the drone excluder 
cages on the hives all of the time, except for breeding? It's not like the 
queen or workers can't pass thru a drone excluder. I'm also very sure 
that yellow Italian drones in a Carniolan hive would be very easy 
to spot and exclude, vice versa. It could also be a way to exclude 
moths, mice and large hornets year round.

Thanx for your input A's Poppy.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

How about this. You put some drone comb in the hive you want pure queens from. You wait for the queen to lay eggs in it. You squeeze off a few drones to collect semen. You add a bit of diluted honey to the semen to activate it. you apply this to the newly laid eggs in the drone comb. You either transfer them when they hatch or turn the comb flatways so they will treat them as queen cells, and voila, pure bred queens...


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

Mr. Bush, isn't this almost like artificial insemination? Ok there's no needles, microscopes,etc. 
But it is an artificial mating of sorts, no? I'll have to archive that technique for later. 

One question, if it was that easy why would artificial insemination exits?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> You add a bit of diluted honey to the semen to activate it. you apply this to the newly laid eggs in the drone comb. You either transfer them when they hatch or turn the comb flatways so they will treat them as queen cells, and voila, pure bred queens...


Seriously Mike? Or are you having us on?


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## A'sPOPPY (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks MB LOL

I Officially give up on this thread !!!!


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

#1 wherewill you find an isolated place in California?
#2 Queens are not supposed to mate with drones from their hives...
#3 AI works well and many people use it. Less Headache with AI just a bit expensive
#4 If you have 2 breeds in a single place no matter how you restrict the drones of Italians they still will get into the Carniolan Gene pool


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Read Steve Taber's "Breeding Super Bees". He has an extensive writeup about ways to manipulate drone eggs including how to artificially fertilize them.

Lost, your idea was used 100 years ago. it was how proof was given that queens mated multiple times on more than one flight. You can find the references about the island of Volcano.

DarJones


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

I understood that drones seek DCA near their hives.
Queens, seek DCA much futher away from the hive.

IF that is the case that is how they avoid natural inbreeding.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Here's one example: (1949)
USDA Bureau of Entomology and Plant Quarantine,
Division of Bee Culture
Madison, Wisconsin
Period: Jul 1 – Sep 30, 1949

ABSTRACT: At the start of the season the bees on Kelleys Island were in excellent condition. However, there was little nectar available throughout the summer, handicapping the production of queens severely. Approximately 1,500 queens were produced and distributed for testing. Large quantities of sugar syrup will need to be fed to insure satisfactory wintering of the colonies. More cases of paralysis were observed this summer than during any previous year. With one exception, all colonies suffering from paralysis were headed by (S-10 x W39)x(A18 x 16-3) queens, which suggests a stock weakness.

Page #2 Progress and Status of Work. “Kelleys Island Queen Production Project” A 20′ x 40′ portable insulated steel building was erected late in June to facilitate the project. The bees were in excellent condition at the start of the season. Queen rearing go off to a good start. However, except for a brief honey flow from sumac, there was little nectar available throughout the summer, which handicapped the production of queens severely.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Here are some examples of isolated places in California
Channel Islands National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
Close to the California mainland, yet worlds apart, Channel Islands National Park encompasses five remarkable islands (Anacapa, Santa Cruz, Santa Rosa, San Miguel ...
Santa Catalina too!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>One question, if it was that easy why would artificial insemination exits? 

Because the end results are different. If you artificially inseminate, you do that once and the queen lays the eggs of the genetics you want. If you fertilize each egg, you are having to do so for each resulting queen (plus a few that don't make it) and that queen still has to mate (or you have to continue to fertilize the eggs). However it does simplify some of it as you can get pure genetics (where you control both sides) in the queen herself without the expense and time to learn II. Yes, I was serious, and no I did not invent it, but I know a few people who have experimented with it.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> How about this. You put some drone comb in the hive you want pure queens from. You wait for the queen to lay eggs in it. You squeeze off a few drones to collect semen. You add a bit of diluted honey to the semen to activate it. you apply this to the newly laid eggs in the drone comb. You either transfer them when they hatch or turn the comb flatways so they will treat them as queen cells, and voila, pure bred queens...


Why do you need the drone comb?
Why does putting drone semen and honey onto eggs create a purebred?

Adam


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why do you need the drone comb?

So you can get unfertilized eggs and then fertilize them with the drone source of your choice.

>Why does putting drone semen and honey onto eggs create a purebred?

Because you had control of the queen (you choose her) and the drone semen (you chose him) so you control both sides of the breeding. It's as purebred as your choices.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

"It's as purebred as your choices."

Very true. For bees, more so than most because the drone has a single set of chromosomes. This means the queen that lays the drone eggs contributes 2 sets of chromosomes and the drone that supplies the semen provides 1 set. This allows you to produce a group of super sister queens who all share exactly the same genes from the drone and who segregate in contribution from the egg laying queen.

DarJones


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >One question, if it was that easy why would artificial insemination exits?
> 
> Because the end results are different. If you artificially inseminate, you do that once and the queen lays the eggs of the genetics you want. If you fertilize each egg, you are having to do so for each resulting queen (plus a few that don't make it) and that queen still has to mate (or you have to continue to fertilize the eggs). However it does simplify some of it as you can get pure genetics (where you control both sides) in the queen herself without the expense and time to learn II. Yes, I was serious, and no I did not invent it, but I know a few people who have experimented with it.


Dont understand continue to fertilize eggs.


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

RAK said:


> #1 wherewill you find an isolated place in California?



I'm not from California, or from the US for that matter. Unless you were talking to someone else.


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> So you can get unfertilized eggs and then fertilize them with the drone source of your choice.


After thinking some more even if this all worked Mr. Bush like you say
I gather this would amount to no more than queen raising. Which is 
not queen breeding. Queen from cells still have to be mated you know? 
Even if she flew away to mate like in my imaginary apiary she could be 
mated with bees from the other hive and it's not pure race breeding, 
is it?

If this egg was fertilized like you say would create a mated queen by 
a freak of nature. I'm sure this queen would only have a tiniest amount 
of semen as only one drone was used. So either way it isn't mating like 
I planned if at all.

So it would not be properly mated like a natural mated queen with 
her 10+ drones. It would turn out to be a drone layer at best and/or 
be rejected soon enough by the older workers. 

I see a lot's of queen rearing information on the Net.
Actual queen breeding is something less prevalent.

While on the subject of of bee breeding. Does anyone where 
I can find a book where the author explains crosses with other
races and what happened when he crossed,etc. ? I have seen 
enough queen rearing so this ain't what I call breeding.

Bee breeding and queen rearing are not the same. 
Queen rearing is the process of producing queen honey bees.
Bee breeding is the process of mating where genetic material 
is combined from two or more sources. (polyandry)


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The purpose of fertilizing drone eggs is to have total control of the queen that laid the eggs and of the drone that produced the semen to fertilize the eggs. It ONLY takes one sperm cell to fertilize the egg.

Why would you want to do this?

If you want to produce queens with very specific traits that are easily visible, then this is a method that works. The resulting queens could for example be used to head colonies that would be used to produce drones which would be used in a mating yard. Under those conditions, you don't care what drones these queens have mated with, the drones they produce will ALL be from unfertilized eggs.

I really don't like using the cordovan trait in an example, but this is a case where it is very visible and a viable example. Lets say you have 2 cordovan queens. These queens mated with a mix of drones none of which are cordovan. You want to raise some pure cordovan queens. No problem, just harvest some drone eggs from one of the queens and grab a cordovan drone from the second queen. Fertilize the eggs with semen from the cordovan drone. Voila, pure cordovan queens.

DarJones


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

Say what you want spreading about drone sperm on a egg. 

It's still an artificial situation. My idea is about letting the queens mate naturally.

Maybe, I should have entitled this thread *NATURAL QUEEN MATING ONLY & NO HUMAN HANDS TOUCHING ANY BEES*.

I still haven't had much input on my original idea.

:banana:


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

Hey lost why not just build a mating tent. 

Actually I thought of that one myself . Then I discovered it was tried and failed years before I was born. Why are you looking for purebred bees? Do you understand with any purebred animal or insect. You are getting into inbreeding? 

I am a newbee myself but have experince in breeding domestic animals and know a bit about simple genetics. And I saw alot of holes in your idea. It takes time for someone to wrap thier mind around genetics, and controled breeding. It just does not happen over night. Also bees are not like other creatures we raise . Which is something else to wrap ones mind around. Maybe the others are being just nice.. And that is why nobody has responded directly to your ideas. 

As for Mr Bush controled breeding without expensive II equipment. That was just a very cool thing for him to share. When you do learn a bit more about genetics you will understand the beauty of what he posted. When any " Pure" Bred creature is being created and line/"in" breeding is being used. Breeding in, then out, is your safest bet. And Mr Bush gave you the least expensive way to accomplish this. To make your own "purebreds". 

But with any livestock pureline . You just dont do it, to do it. You must have a valued goal. 



Definition of PUREBRED
: bred from members of a recognized breed, strain, or kind without admixture of other blood over many generations


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

beeG,

I have read that mating tents were tried in the past and they were all failures.

I'm not worried about inbreeding. My example is only two hives of different races.

If I was breeding I would be using more than 2 hives of any race. 

I bet most of you have never heard of effective population size, 
identity by descent, pedigree analysis, genetic drift,etc.? 

As for regular systems of inbreeding like: selfing, full-sib, parent-offspring, 
and repeated backcross, do you know the inbreeding coefficients for each 
generation?

I think peoples hould read a few book on genetics before running a puppy mill.

Did you know that genes introduced by even a single migrant per generation 
may swamp the effects of inbreeding? I would use more than one migrant per
generation but not more than 5 %, so I wouldn't lose my local adaptation.

It's nice getting fancy bees from a breeder from far away but locally
adapted bees are normally better. 

http://www.cfc.umt.edu/personnel/mills/Mills and Allendorf OMPG.pdf

http://books.google.ca/books?id=vLZ...v=onepage&q=genes by a single migrant&f=false

I'm not worried about inbreeding as I know not to let it get too far.


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

no comment


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

And Lost

My genetic experince origonated from Breeding color mutations in Psittacines. I also dabbled in Color mutations in Betas.


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

beeG said:


> As for calling me a derogatory name.


What name did I call you? I don't see myself calling you anything. Please quote where I do. OK
Does anyone else do?

Psittacines? Oh I see parrots.


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

no comment


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## deejaycee (Apr 30, 2008)

ok, I'm going to try and avoid jumping offtrack here. 

Lost, I don't see it working. Regardless of numbers of hives. 

1 Drones don't just accidentally occasionally switch hives - they pretty much actively circulate between hives. Researchers have found that over 60% of drones in a hive at any one time did not originate from that hive - there's no genetic link to the queen. Can't remember the source, but one of the studies had a quote along the lines of 'we spray painted emerging drones in a bunch of hives - a different colour for each hive. In X time we had a veritable rainbow of drones in each hive'. On that basis, when your drone excluders are off, you're not going to be able to maintain even close to a single line of drones per hive. 

2 Queens can take up to 3 weeks (?) to mate. That' s a heck of a long time to confine drones in those non-target hives for. What a terrible stress to put on the hive - drones will be busting to get out, likely developing dysentery, dieing in the hive, blocking up the drone excluder hive exit. Not pretty. And of course you're not even going to be able to open those hives to work them at all during the time, or the drones will escape anyway. 

hey, beeG - ex-parrot breeder here too! Colour inheritances always fascinated me


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >Why do you need the drone comb?
> 
> So you can get unfertilized eggs and then fertilize them with the drone source of your choice.
> 
> ...


Ah, yes - of course. Sometimes I feel like such an idiot for the questions I ask... Clear now. Thanks.

Adam


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

I just wish honey bees were all diploids it would make things much easier.
It's this haploid drone thing that throws a monkey wrench into it all.

I'll have to take a time out from this thread till I read more on 
the *Haplodiploid sex-determination system* which affect 
bee mating.

Ok chow all I'm going back into my cave and wipe the drawing board.

Plan B, where are you? :scratch:


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

A queen has diploid genetics. She mates on average with about 17 drones and may take more than one true mating flight. Because of flight patterns, she will tend to go further away from her colony which makes mating with drones from her colony less likely. But for this post, consider only that she has diploid genetics with 2 copies of the sex determination allele.

Now consider the drones. They are haploid with only a single set of chromosomes. In effect, the drone is a flying super gamete. He produces enough sperm to more than fill a queen's spermatheca yet they are genetically identical. From a segregation viewpoint, the segregation occurs in the queen that laid the egg that became a drone. She has 2 sets of chromosomes so segregation at meiosis gives her drone eggs their unique genetics.

Now consider the sex determination allele. I've read several articles stating that there are 15 of them (one source says 18 but not yet proven that I have read). This means that a queen must be carrying 2 of the alleles since the only way she can be female is if she has two copies and they are NOT identical.

Now lets let the queen mate with her 17 drones on average. What are the probabilities that at least one of the drones she mates with has an identical allele with the queen? 

Now extend that to two colonies in the same apiary. One of them produces the drones and the other produces the queen. You prevent drones from flying from the colony that produced the queen so the mating will be with non-related drones. In this case, the drones are limited to ONLY the sex alleles from one of the two queens because a drone is from an unfertilized egg and therefore has one or the other of the sex alleles that the queen carries. This means that you are mating a queen carrying 2 sex alleles to a group of drones that en masse carry only 2 sex alleles. Presuming that they are not identical alleles, this is fantastic for the first generation queens albeit an incredible loss of diversity. But the devil is in the details. From that point on, all future generations are LIMITED to just 4 sets of sex alleles. This is the classic cause of inbreeding depression in bees when the breeding population is too small.

It would take 150 very diverse colonies of bees to retain all 15 of the sex alleles in a reasonably stable breeding population. Even then, genetic drift could eliminate some alleles over time.

A copy of Brother Adam's Breeding the Honeybee would be very helpful in understanding the implications of parthenogenesis. One way of looking at it is to consider the drones to be flying gametes and therefore you are mating a new queen to an older queen. Think about this carefully and you will see what I mean. If you think of it this way, you can apply standard diploid breeding terms.

If you work through this carefully you will see that in a large natural system, the sex alleles will tend to be in balance and would normally be retained in the population. This is because a queen that mates with a drone carrying an identical allele will be less fit and therefore more likely to die. So if a given sex allele becomes predominant in a population of bees, it will tend to become less predominant over time because of this effect. This can be countered by limiting the size of the breeding population. If the population is small enough, effects can accumulate so that a given sex allele would be eliminated. This is what happened on Kangaroo Island.

DarJones


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

What if one was to put on a drone escape that ended in a cage of some sort? Could it be designed so that the workers could get back in and drones could not? Than leave the cage on for several weeks on the hive you wanted to exclude from the breeding.
I am just spit-balling ideas here and have no idea if it would be practicable.
Dan


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

Check this out.

It seems Hogg was able to breed Buckfast queens in an apiary with Italian bees 
without crossing from with the use of excluders,etc. The mating is made to happen
also after hours when normal drones are back home. This would add to the security
of feral bees or another beekeepers hives contaminating a breeding project as well.

http://www.halfcomb.com/Hogg_Halfcomb___Publications/ABJ_1991_1May.pdf

This should add some weight to my plans.


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## kyell (Feb 3, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >One question, if it was that easy why would artificial insemination exits?
> 
> Because the end results are different. If you artificially inseminate, you do that once and the queen lays the eggs of the genetics you want. If you fertilize each egg, you are having to do so for each resulting queen (plus a few that don't make it) and that queen still has to mate (or you have to continue to fertilize the eggs). However it does simplify some of it as you can get pure genetics (where you control both sides) in the queen herself without the expense and time to learn II. Yes, I was serious, and no I did not invent it, but I know a few people who have experimented with it.


MB,
Do you have links to any academic research on this method? Or maybe you could encourage the folks you know who have experimented with this method to share some of their experiences? If they don't want to respond to a beesource thread, maybe send me a PM?
Thanks,
Kyle


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