# OAV treatment after Caging Queen



## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I am working on my plans for 2018 and I am, once again, thinking about changing up my treatment plan. I will normally do a final harvest in July, leaving the bees to keep whatever they get from the goldenrod through the winter. The current plan I am devising is to cage all of my queens (push-in cages) immediately after this final harvest. I will leave them caged for 14 days and then release them. On the 21st day, I will treat all of my hives with OAV.

Keep in mind that I have a near-tropical climate with virtually no natural brood breaks, even through the "winter." Also, I will never be able to use MAQS because of my high temps. I am thinking that this timing for forcing a brood break will give my colonies plenty of time to lay and rear a good crew of bees for "winter." 

Please poke holes where you see issues. I would rather make mistakes here than in my apiary. One of my concerns is that I am afraid they will try to supercede my caged queens. Thanks.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

psm1212 said:


> I am working on my plans for 2018 and I am, once again, thinking about changing up my treatment plan. I will normally do a final harvest in July, leaving the bees to keep whatever they get from the goldenrod through the winter. The current plan I am devising is to cage all of my queens (push-in cages) immediately after this final harvest. I will leave them caged for 14 days and then release them. On the 21st day, I will treat all of my hives with OAV.
> 
> Keep in mind that I have a near-tropical climate with virtually no natural brood breaks, even through the "winter." Also, I will never be able to use MAQS because of my high temps. I am thinking that this timing for forcing a brood break will give my colonies plenty of time to lay and rear a good crew of bees for "winter."
> 
> Please poke holes where you see issues. I would rather make mistakes here than in my apiary. One of my concerns is that I am afraid they will try to supercede my caged queens. Thanks.


21 days after caging the last of the worker brood should be emerging, but, there will still be capped drone brood for 3 more days.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

grozzie2 said:


> 21 days after caging the last of the worker brood should be emerging, but, there will still be capped drone brood for 3 more days.


Yep. And in July, they will still be making drones. I suppose when I release the queen I could tear down drone cells. It would not be 100%, but I am thinking it would still be effective. I don't think I would want to wait any more than 21 days to treat for fear they would start capping the next batch.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

if your worried about supercede try a frame cage or queen excluder follower boards to restrict the queen to one frame 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX3Tz5_uaMc&feature=youtu.be&t=41m1s

I would consider restricting the queen earyer to free up the work force to focused on honey production, following the natural brood rearing reduction timeing towards the start of the main flow . ie eggs layed 21 days before harvest have no postive efect on honey harverst
I would also think about timing one of the steps with the harvest to save you a trip, such as releaceing the queen or treating on the day of harvest.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I am considering a European method, German I think. Where I will split all my colonies after harvest, the queen with all the eggs and uncapped brood frames moved to a new position and the remainder of bees and capped brood left in the original position. The split with the queens can get an immediate treatment and perhaps another a week later while the other half can get treated after 24 days with another treatment 7 days later. The only problem I can see is that I am trying to reduce my hives to 25 and after doing the above I will end up with more than 70. Oh if only we could have this decline in bees everyone is talking about.
Johno


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> the queen with all the eggs and uncapped brood frames moved to a new position and the remainder of bees and capped brood left in the original position


its the reverse, the queen and open brood are left at the old position to collect the feild force.
I did a few this spring, leaving the queen and one frame/bar of open brood behind and was impressed with the results.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Msl I am a little worried about leaving queen less hives weak at that time of the year as I have had a great deal of trouble with beetles, they seem to home in to queenless hives. I will try some of them each way and see how it goes.
Johno


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

msl: I see what you are saying on the timing issue. I'm thinking I cage 14 days ahead of harvest. Release queens on harvest day. Treat the following weekend (day 21). 

Trying to harvest and treat on the same day might kill me.

As to the frame-sized queen cage, are those commercially available or will I need to make some?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

johno
let us know how it works out ...
if you move the queen and the open brood away form the location you have only the cover bees on the frame or 2 of open brood and any that have been orientated fly back. This dose not provide bees to forage, draw wax or cover fresh brood laid by the queen.. the forgeing work force is important to this split

if you move the OG hive while leaving the queen, it may be queen less but it has ALL the house bees... 


PSM1212 they are avaibul,but I can't find any state side any more, randy shows his homemade divistion board ones at about 43:30 in the link I posted...


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

psm1212 said:


> Yep. And in July, they will still be making drones. I suppose when I release the queen I could tear down drone cells. It would not be 100%, but I am thinking it would still be effective. I don't think I would want to wait any more than 21 days to treat for fear they would start capping the next batch.


Interesting plan you have there. You could incorporate a green drone frame in the hive 24 days (or more probably) before you cage the queen. Then remove it when you cage the queen so you have removed most of the drones from your equation. The removed frame would allow space for the caged queen, although I think not everyone removes a frame when they cage a queen. J


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

1)Once the queen is caged, the hive cannot initate a swarm or supercedure cell.
Those cells, once drawn have eggs layed into them by queens
Only emergency cells can be started.
Make sure to locate the caged queen as centered in the hive as possible to avoid emergency impulse.

2)There is no reason to cage the queen for an entire brood cycle.
After you cage the queen, mites will still be able to enter 5th larval day cells for 8 days. Then all brood will be capped.
When you release the queen, it will be 8 full days until mites can enter larva.
So all that is needed is a short interval from the 8th day after caging and the release of the queen.
Example:
Cage the queen. After 8 days ALL brood in the hive is capped. Wait an additional 6 days for a total of 14 days since caging and then release the queen.
It will be 8 days before mites can enter larva.
6 days later, for a total of 20 days since the queen was caged , queen-check and treat the hive.
Total days the queen was caged is 14.
The main advantage to utilizing as short of an interval as possible is that you will release the queen when brood is still present for better acceptance.
You can massage these numbers around some, but only based on the bees life cycle and the mites life cycle.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Johno, I can help you with that "too many bees" problem your gonna have next year. You are not far from me.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

So I have been thinking about this a little more. I run two brood boxes -- a deep and a medium. What if I made a 2 inch shim and placed it between the 2 brood boxes. I pull the frame with the queen on it and lay the frame and queen down horizontally in the shim between two queen excluders for 14 days? 

From bottom to top it is a bottom board, then deep brood box, then QE, then horizontal frame inside shim with queen, then another QE, then the medium brood box, cover. 

It puts the queen in the center of the hive and allows access to her by all of the workers and nurses. 

If there are eggs or young larvae in the bottom cells of the frame I have laid horizontally, will the nurses try to make queen cells?


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