# master beekeeper



## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

Can someone tell me what you have to do to get this title or is this a self discribed title? I have seen some people with this title they use it but how do they earn it?

really really good beekeeper

[This message has been edited by rainesridgefarm (edited February 13, 2004).]


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

In North Carolina, you need some years of experience, some service oriented projects, and you need to pass a written and practical test with advanced knowledge in several areas.

I have seen some of the info for the Eastern Apicultural society, you can search their website for further info. I get the impression they have more vigorous (or organized) standards.

How practical is it?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Every other year they have a "master beekeeping" programe here. I'm not sure if you get certified or what and I'm not sure it's anything but a piece of paper anyway.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I was certified last year in a "short course" offered by Onslow County Beekeepers Association. That's the first step. For the next steps (journeyman, master and master craftsman), some further years' experience and other requirements must be met before you can take the exam. You could probably find out more through your state association. They usually offer the short courses (about 5 weeks of lessons with written and practical tests thereafter) at the association meetings. To get some idea of requirements and what goes on, check out North Carolina's information at http://www.ncbeekeepers.org/master.htm. Your state's are probably about the same. I don't know if there really is any worth to the certification, but I went for it just for my own satisfaction.


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

My wife is a 'Master Gardner' a certification provided in Texas by the extension service. It involved 100 hours of classroom but most importantly 120 hours of volunteer work. The program is pretty successful in motivating people to promote education and community service. Among projects they did were doing the twice weekly counts on experimental 'earth kind' roses for disease, bloom, etc, helping with the gardens in an orphanage, booths at the fair and so on. Wouldn't be bad to have a similar program for beekeeping in every state.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I don't like crap, to put it nicely. One of the requirements at the EAS master certification test, is to work a hive without gloves. I do not wear gloves all the time, but occassionally will as I still do not like getting stung. I have been stung 10-20 or more in a day. No big deal either way. But to somehow judge a persons pain tolerance as a requirement is questionable. I know one women who has had bees for years and is very knowledgable , but wont take the teat for this one reason.

You can be the best beekeeper in the world, and I would not look down upon anyone who would like to wear gloves. To me its more of a comfort decision. Not being a "man", or tough.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

Not wearing gloves does not tell anyone how much you know about bees. I have had bees for nearly a year and can already work a hive with no gloves. I can find the queen, check for brood and stores but I have not seen wax moths as of yet. So how can I say I can detect wax moth since I have not seen them but I can work a hive with no gloves and get no stings. I have all ways been a bee charmer and picked bees up off flower in school to show off.


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

hello all
I guess its a degree to brag about. I on the other hand would think learning all you could about bees would put in the class of ( informed).
I have been keeping bees most of my life and bee doing it commercialy for over 25yrs.
now does that mean I am a (master beekeeper). no I don't think so.
P.S. I am still learning in another God will give my degree.
Don


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

My requirement to call you a "Master" anything is, you are 85 years old and can do it excellently after at least 50 years of experience. I quit going to local beekeeping club meetings because every guy who had caught a few swarms, had a few hives, and extracted 50 pounds of honey talked like he was the local "BeeMaster". Again and again the bees will prove you wrong.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Like I said, being certified is for one's own satisfaction, not for any particular gain or to "lord it over" other beekeepers. I learned a lot in the classes and heard different opinions on different issues and was left to my devices to make up my mind which theories worked best for me. I don't know who you guys are talking to, but I've never run across a beekeeper who thinks he knows everything. At the last meeting my favorite "old timer" assured me that I--like he--will never know everything there is to know about beekeeping. And just when you think you know it all, the bees will prove you wrong! I know for a fact the NC Master Beekeepers Program does not require that you work the bees without gloves. You are permitted to work the bees as you would in yoru own bee yard, and I know of no one being refused certification because they wore gloves. A certification may not be necessary, but neither is it a waste of time or a way to "show off" which the tenor of some of your posts seems to be inferring. It's just another open option in the learning process.


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## Daisy (Jul 24, 2003)

My bees are teaching me everything I know.

I don't have formal education in beekeeping but the bees don't seem to mind.

LOL


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

The web site is at
http://www.easternapiculture.org/programs/ 

PURPOSE AND GOALS: There has been a growing interest in beekeeping in North America, particularly in the past decade among hobbyists. Because of the continuing growth in this interest, there is a need for competent bee masters to provide education and assistance to beginning beekeepers and serve in other capacities in the community as experts in beekeeping. The Master Beekeeper program has been developed to certify qualified beekeepers to serve this need. Initially, this program was developed by Dr. Roger A. Morse at Cornell University. The program has now been expanded by the Eastern Apicultural Society of North America to other areas.

The purpose of the Master Beekeeper certification program is to identify and certify people who have a detailed knowledge of honey bee biology, expertise in the proper practices of beekeeping, and can present this information to the beekeeping and non-beekeeping public in a detailed, accurate, clear and authoritative manner. The goal of this program is to certify that those who are awarded the Master Beekeepers Certificate are competent at a college level in the three areas where they are tested.

The certification program will be conducted in conjunction with the annual EAS Conference. Certification will be coordinated by personnel who are designated by the Master Beekeeper Organization.

ELIGIBILITY: Any experienced beekeeper is eligible to apply for certification as a Master Beekeeper. Persons interested in applying should have a minimum of 5 years as a serious beekeeper in some aspect of apiary management such as a very dedicated hobbyist, a commercial beekeeper, working for a commercial beekeeper or as an apiary inspector. Also, it is recommended that applicants have completed the equivalent of a college level course in beekeeping. An applicant should be well read in apicultural literature. In addition, a letter of nomination in support of the individuals seeking Master Beekeeper Certification must be submitted by the application deadline. This letter may be supplied by a current master beekeeper, professional beekeeping specialist or current president of a local, state or regional beekeeping organization with whom the applicant has a long standing personal association. The letter can be submitted with the application or can be sent separately but must be received by the application deadline.

APPLICATION: Persons wishing to apply for certification should send a letter to the Secretary of EAS, Loretta M. Surprenant, Box 300, Essex, N.Y. 12936, stating his/her intention and request an application form for the Master Beekeeper Program. The application should be completed and mailed to the Master Beekeeper Coordinator (address on application form). The deadline for application is the same date as the conference deadline. All applications and letters of nomination must be received by the Master Beekeeper coordinator by the conference deadline. The number of applicants accepted may be governed by the facilities available for testing. Applications will be accepted on a first-come, first-serve basis. 

REFERENCES: Master Beekeeper applicants will be provided an outline of examination subjects and a list of references to study in preparation for the examination. 

FEES: Applicants who are accepted as candidates for certification are charged a fee which cover the cost of supplies and expenses for testing. The certification program costs $50. As each individual exam is passed, it will not have to be repeated. If an individual fails an exam, they are charged $15 for each section retaken.

TESTING: Tests for certification will be conducted in conjunction with the annual EAS Conference. Testing will consist of:

a written examination on knowledge of all aspects of beekeeping 
a laboratory practical examination on recognition of diseases, equipment and proper practices and 
an apiary performance test on the proper explanation of beekeeping practices and on handling of bee colonies. 
An oral examination on knowledge and ability to communicate effectively to both beekeepers and public. 
CERTIFICATE: Each candidate who is qualified and passes the EAS Master Beekeeper test will receive a certificate suitable for framing and a lapel pin showing certification as a Master Beekeeper. 


[This message has been edited by Rob Mountain (edited February 14, 2004).]


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

While I can totally appreciate it if someone wants to challenge themself to acheive the title, I was disappointed to read Bjorn's post that one has to work the bees without gloves. The gentleman that was the first person to share his skills with me was allergic to beestings. Naturally, he carried his prescription with him, and all those around him knew how to use it on him. But to think that he could not recieve the "title" of a Master Beekeeper just because he had a "handicap" is stupid. 

Again, I think it is a personal choice (frankly, few people impress me by their titles. a side effect from serving some invalid officers in the Army). And I would support anyone who chooses to. But I also will respect a person by what they show me they are capable of, not their label.
Coyote


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

The Master Beekeeper certification is a very high standard set by the EAS, started by Roger Morse. Like most things in life. If one doesnt have it, one either envies or criticizes the ones that do and the process by which it is obtained. I respect those who have gone through with it, and are now EAS Master Beekeepers. Dr. CLARENCE COLLISON does an excellent job of setting, and maintaining this standard of excellence. 

Do I have this certification? No not yet but I certainly would like to achieve it soon. I would encourage everyone who has the motivation, and commitment to obtain this standard, to at least give it a go. When I was in the military, we always had something to say about people with a rank above us but that was only until we obtained that rank.

We have nothing to loose, just something to gain. As a second generation Beekeeper, and a degreed University Apiculture Extension Associate, I could ask myself. Do I need this? Yes, if I swallow my pride, and take the challenge. I believe I will better represent the Beekeeping industry with this certification. 

Lets be LEADERS not followers!! Its a challenge, step up to the plate. 

For direct information on the EAS Master Beekeeper certification the best person to contact is Ray Lackey.

Master Beekeepers
Ray Lackey (2005)
1260 Walnut Avenue
Bohemia, NY 11716-2176
631.567.1936
[email protected]


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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

While nobody said anything negative about the program, perhaps thier own personal opinions, (which I hope we dont need to go down that path again of free speech), I found the comments interesting. One thing I did note was that nobody actually commented or knew what the benefits of this certification is. Will my business be better, my honey sell for more, a label for my bottle for promotional value, I'm'm not sure. Those answers could certainly be answered by conversations such as this.

We turned personal views, comments and questions into ego and hypocritism. Now anyone making a comment is envious? I noticed robountain patted himself on the back while commenting on his own title, degree and military experience of being envious of those above him. All while saying nobody should openly question, criticize, critique, or view opinions whether good or bad?

Someone please tell me how if I know all there would be to know to pass this test, and then denied because of a glove issue, how this is good for the industry? Not one person said that learning or experince would not take place. You can achieve that many ways. With that in mind, tell whats so important about this certificate, that has no universal requirements across the industry.


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## denise_ky (Aug 29, 2002)

The EAS master beekeeping program was discussed at the HAS meeting last summer. I don't remember the statistics, but it was something like only 1 out of 100 people taking the course/tests passed. It is , in my opinion , a coveted title. I'm a master gardner and by comparison the master beekeeping course is much more stringent and more involved. (Of course beekeeping is more complicated)
I think the main gist of the course is to challenge oneself to learn as much as you can and pass the knowledge on. 
Had I known about the "working without gloves" requirement I would have challenged that. I still think it should be challenged and maybe collectively we could do something about that. That is one of the stupidest things I've heard. And , yes, it certainly is discrimination.
As for the "local master beekeepers" at the bee clubs...this is why I don't attend local clubs either. I think it's more of an attitude these folks have and I don't tolerate attitude too well, so I choose to distance myself from it. This attitude was actually discussed in the first couple of chapters of "The Queen Must Die." The author was right on the money.
"nuff said.
Denise


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

I have emailed Ray Kackey, and will pass on whatever information he has. I really have my doubt about "working without gloves" as a requirement.

Bjorn Bee. PA is hosting the EAS this year!! Take up the challenge, write the test, do the practical, and Lab. I am sure it will be worth the effort, and I have confidence in you from your input to this page, that you will make it. You make this year, and I will take you out for dinner afterwards. Remember a bull only has two ends to grab. 

If I patted myself on the back, well, so be it but I have learned to turn envy into admiration, and admiration into a goal. I have not arrived but I like to feel that I have departed. It is the same situation as working your bees successfully, raising queens successfully, doing I.I. successfully, everyone around you benefits from your success. 

Let us put the "working without gloves" issue aside until we have the correct information. Personally I hate exams, and feel very threatened by them but the exhilaration success in any field should be our motivator. I feel that to become a Master Beekeeper would be a huge personal mile-stone for me. It will make me a better person for ME. I certainly dont think that it is boastful to be a Master Beekeeper or Master Gardener. It just shows that you have taken on a challenge, and been successful. 

LIFE IS FULL OF CHALLENGES  THEY CAN MAKE US OR BREAK US.


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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Responce from Ray Lacky. 


No way! We insist that you be comfortable working with the bees but judgment is mainly smoothness and not banging things around. Wearing gloves is fine and some of those who passed this year wore golves.

Raymond J. Lackey Sweet Pines Apiary
Master Beekeeper - Eastern Apiculture Society/OSU
Director - Long Island Region - Empire State Honey Producers Association
President (again) - Long Island Beekeepers Association
Honeybee Consultant - North American Fruit Explorers
Speaker -BOCES (schools) and LI Speaker's Association
~20 colonies (honey production & pollination) >20 years experience
Phone :631 567-1936 FAX :631 262-8053
mail: 1260 Walnut Avenue, Bohemia, NY 11716-2176
web page: http://www.tianca.com/tianca2.html 
email home: [email protected] 
email office: [email protected] 


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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well

[This message has been edited by Rob Mountain (edited February 15, 2004).]


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Your Master Beekeeper Certificate and a buck will buy you a cup of coffee.Just my opinion on such stuff.(just got back from moving bees -not much sleep the last few days so if that sounds cranky,well thats my excuse!)


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Cool Mike - We needed something lighter. Long time no chat.

When are we going for coffee? Starbucks I hope.

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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Thanks Rob for the info. I have heard this same claim from multiple sources over the years. On one hand its good to get the right info. On another maybe some good marketing of the master course requirments need to be made. Then on another hand, its hard to think with over 1000 members, "are there no master beekeepers on the site? Still another hand, Is it really worth it and whats its good for? Oh wait, crap, I'm running out of hands.......


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Starbucks!!?? Not unless you are buying,Rob.Finding a good cup of coffee at 2 am while moving bees can be a REAL problem.


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

No problem !!

My offer still stands - You make I buy. How about the same for me? LOL

Take it easy Chap. Please don,t start calling me a Master Bee Wannbeee.

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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Sorry reply went through twice !!!!

Mike, I served my time in CA moving bees, an operation of 10 000. I tell you one place worse  South Africa, everything is as dead as a door nail after 9 at night. Sometime you had to hope that, that wasnt you.

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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Well,you could have Bjorn Bee,Certified Master Beekeep.printed on your labels.At a time when people are losing confidence in the purity of the food supply,that might help increase sales.So as a marketing tool,it might be worth the effort.Who knows...


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Come to say it myself it would not look too Shabby on a resume`. One has nothing to loose.

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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I do agree. But I'm not into titles all that much. A few years back, I considered the title of "Lord" and of course my wife would be "lady". We do own land, which of course was one requirement for this designation. Seems like some just didn't approve. Now I'm not sure how far people will go with "Master", but it seems your asking for trouble........


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

There is a difference between an acquired title, and an earned title. From what I can make out the Master Beekeeper title is a very well earned title. I will be having a crack at it this year at the EAS in PA. I would further encourage fellow Beesource members take up the challenge. Just look at their membership list. If they can, then so can I.

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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

BjornBee wrote (in reference to wearing gloves):
> I know one women who has had bees for years and is very knowledgable , but wont take the teat for this one reason.

Sigmund Freud might agree with you.

The only Master BeeKeeper I've read much from is George Imirie. In his case I think the title is quite well deserved as he is the most opinionated, hilariously impolite, know it all around the business. I always enjoy his dramatic email blasts on Bee-L and I'm sure he is a real pistol at his local Maryland club meetings.

One thing he has said that impressed me - he averages 135lbs / hive in Maryland - a notoriously poor place for honey yields.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I will tell you if I lived close to George and ran a similar amount of hives I would try to copy his methods to a T.Some of what he does is universal, some isnt,but he is always worth paying attention to.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>Mike, I served my time in CA moving bees, an operation of 10 000. 
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I know you did.When I buy you that coffee we can talk about muddy orchards,and hives falling off trucks!
---Mike


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

George Imrie...That name rings a strong bell. Why should I know his name??

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Scot Mc Pherson

"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me

"Do or not do, there is no try" ~ Master Yoda

BeeSourceFAQ: http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/


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## txbeeguy (Jan 9, 2003)

Rob Mountain wrote:
> If one doesnt have it, one either envies or criticizes the ones that do...

Rob, I take exception to this comment - it strikes me as being an incredibly narrow point of view. 

I neither hold nor desire to hold the title of Master Beekeeper. I do not envy those who do, nor am I critical of the process by which this title is obtained. It simply is of no interest to me. 

Beekeeping is a hobby for me and as such, I enjoying the learning this hobby brings (be it through books or the internet or the bees teaching me, themselves). I seek no outwardly visible affirmation of this learning. And unlike some who have written, I can't even honestly ask myself, "what tangible good would it do for me?" As I don't rely on honey sales to make a living, this question never enters the equation. 

For those individuals who find this type of gratification, rewarding or somehow necessary, I wish the best of luck in their pursuit. My own motivation lies elsewhere.


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Hey, Mike I didn't know you were watching me. LOL Trucks and Swingers stuck too. Slipping and falling into the mud knee deed.

Then I must admit watching the sunrise always seemed to make up for it. 

That cup of coffee will be good. How about it in SA?


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If a job is worth doing - Then do it well


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## Rob Mountain (Dec 8, 2003)

Hey txbeeguy 

You do your thing and Ill do mine. I wholeheartedly agree with you. In fact I said this to a group of Beekeepers recently  I dont want to spoil your fun. I really mean that.

I am talking to the shakers and movers in the Beekeeping world. Maybe I shouldnt be participating in these forums because I have an incredibly narrow point of view. I want to see the highest standards reached in the industry. Be it, Master Beekeepers, raising locally produced queens, inventing new machinery, or what so ever. I will always strive to do my best, and at the same time I will encourage others around me who are willing to do the same. Look at the range of Mountain Bee Veils, and the back page of the Kelley catalog.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Rob Mountain wrote:
> If one doesnt have it, one either envies or criticizes the ones that do...

There are only two kinds of people in the world. The kind who divide people into two groups and the kind that don't.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Where IS my Kelley catalog ,by the way?Has everyone else got theirs?


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2004)

I find it amusing that a mostly solo sport
like beekeeping has any competitive aspect
to it at all, but somehow, the whole "master beekeeper" issue brings it all out in the
open, with some panning the entire concept,
and others suffering from "delusions of adequacy" because they passed a test years
ago.

NC has a decent program, and has LEVELS.
In other words, you can be a "journeyman"
before you become a "master" beekeeper.
Sounds much more reasonable than the 
"all or nothing" approach used elsewhere,
such as the EAS program.

One is forced to wonder why anyone would
seek the approval of others, when it is
difficult to get two beekeepers to agree
on any specific aspect of beekeeping.
I have often been asked why I am a "Life
Member" of EAS, but have not bothered to
take the "master beekeeper" test.

I answer that I have no need to prove
anything to anyone, that my bees test
my knowledge and skills, and my crop is
proof enough that I have some skills. 

Clarence Colson writes monthly "What Do You Know?" columns for Bee Culture, and it is
known that the written portion of the EAS
master beekeeper test is much easier to pass
if one studies the back issues, or buys his
book. (Conflict of interest, or "handy study
guide"? - you decide.)

To be honest, I view most of Clarence's 
questions as irrelevant trivia, (such as
his questions about bees that I will never see without buying an airline ticket) and
many of the remainder as "dogma", lacking firm proof of the sort we expect over in 
the physics wing, where men and men, and women are women, and electrons are not 
always electrons.

Here's an example - what does "reversing
brood chambers" REALLY do? All you need
do is look at one of your own hives, and
pay attention to see that the common dogma
is 180 degrees off. Breaking up the brood
chamber and rearranging it certainly DOES
"prevent swarming" over the SHORT TERM, but
as it forces the bees to reorganize the
brood area, it results in a net LARGER brood area, which promotes swarming later, and
with near absolute certainty. (Gratuitous
use of CAPS in the paragraph above is honor of GEORGE, who seems to LEAN ON THE CAPSLOCK
KEY WHEN HE TYPES.)









So, if you listen to my good buddy and fellow
physics wonk George Imire, and reverse, you
should seriously consider making a split
from those colonies in about 45 days.

If not, you will get exactly what "dogma"
says reversing prevents - a swarm.

Bottom line, show me a "master beekeeper
program" where you have to REqualify every
so often, and I'll buy into it as a valid
program. I might even become one of that
sort of master beekeeper, if I study hard.

jim (a JEDI master beekeeper)


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Jim said:
>>I answer that I have no need to prove
anything to anyone, that my bees test
my knowledge and skills, and my crop is
proof enough that I have some skills

And that ,I think,pretty well sums up what I believe,also.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

>>Jfischer: "Breaking up the brood
chamber and rearranging it certainly DOES
"prevent swarming" over the SHORT TERM, but
as it forces the bees to reorganize the
brood area, it results in a net LARGER brood area, which promotes swarming later, and
with near absolute certainty."

So, if you don't reverse, what practices should one follow, in your opinion, to prevent swarming?

Kai


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

the point isn't to do something different, reversing the chambers works GREAT. the thing is that you need to be prepared to do a split or the bees will split themselves for you.

The best way to prevent swarming (without considering other factors) is to split. Reversing the chambers allows you to build up your brood, but you should still split in the future.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

George Imirie has reversing as his main tenent for swarm prevention. I'm not big on it myself. He reverses over and over in the spring.

I don't like to disrupt the brood nest that much.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

I agree, splitting is the best way to prevent swarms.

Or rather, its helps satisfy the bee's need to multiply.

Other forms of swarm prevention only aggrivate the bees IMO.

[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited February 17, 2004).]


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

There's a commercial guy on this site that reverses every 2 weeks. Since he hasn't chimed in, his name must remain a secret.

Dickm


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

I'm not a commercial operation, but I do reverse every two weeks starting around March 6. I do it to maximize the number of foragers during the main flow and to create excess young bees for splits. To prevent swarming, I start removing capped and open brood (one frame per week) at the start of the flow. I gently shake the frame to remove any foragers clinging to it and then add it to a NUC.

Getting back the the "master beekeeper" subject: I think the certifcation system in NC is very worth while - the practical and written tests are not easy and the public service requirement is good for the industry. I'm now a "Journeyman" level working on getting enough public service credits to qualify for master.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2004)

WOW! Such strong feelings.

I started working in the Ga. Master Beekeeper program 3 yeas ago, and still have 2 or 3 years left. I didn't do it for the title or to tell people that I'm better. I wanted to learn more and this was the only thing that I found that I could set a standard too. Our program is centered on gaining knowlage and the ability to pass the knowlage to others. I do enjoy it. I've learned more that what you can in books. 

A master beekeeper is not about prestige, or titles. It should be about setting a higher standard for yourself and helping others in the beekeeping world.

BB


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Golli gee willikers!

I leave for a week of much needed vacation and look what you all get into. Between this and the Bon Jour / PETA thread I really missed out. Wish I could have read what got edited out by the Guard Bees.

There is no offical state bee anything in Kansas other than the state insect is the honeybee. We do not have inspectors anymore, that program went by the wayside years ago, and I haven't found anyone here with the title of Master Beekeeper. I am curious wether it is possible to earn it from another area of the United States? Seems that it would be an awfully long way to go for something that only carries significance in a very small circle.

Many of you know of my involvment in a group called The Society for Creative Anachronism, (SCA), a non-profit group that reinacts the medieval time period. It's not unlike the cival war groups, or the frontiersman group or even the Single Action Shooters Society.

The whole basis for rank and title in the SCA is for the self propogation of the group by learning and teaching all things medieval and just good fun in recreating the best aspects of the ages.

Acceptance and respect of your Peers (no, not those peering down at you, but those of your same level) is gained by your efforts to learn and teach what you know and share it freely with anyone wishing to learn your paticular craft. Wether it be combat, which would lead to Knighthood, Arts and Sciences would lead to Master of Laurel, or service (voulinteering) that would lead to Master of the Pelican, ( one who gives of their lives freely to sustain others). It usually takes many years to achieve acceptance and recognition into the Orders. I know that when I received my Master of the Laurel for leatherworking and Knighthood for combat and medevial lifestyle, that it gave me a greater belief that I knew what I was talking about and the selfconfidance to teach and share what I knew.

That recognition also prompts those receiving it to stay active and continue teaching others.

The concept of continued education is not for any one reason, look at the numbers of retired people who continue their education not for profit or gain, but for the sense of self worth, just one of many reasons that fulfill any number of self needs.

So, would I like to be a Master of Beekeeping? Your **** right I would. Not because I want to puff up in front of others, I could care less about that. My motovation would be that I want to know all I can know. That when I teach others, I am confidant that I know what I am talking about, and that those that listen to me know the same.

All in all, I just want to be the best beekeeper I can be.




[This message has been edited by BULLSEYE BILL (edited February 19, 2004).]


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Well said


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Awesome!!!! I love it when humble people push themselves for no other reasons than personal gratification and to help others. Fortunately, most beekeepers I know enjoy helping others. Thats why I respect them,titled or no.

Wayacoyote


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

If I did not like helping others, I would not post here.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Someone was kind enough to bring to my attention that my very last post to Bill appeared as tho I was calling him a hypocrite. I am sorry to Him first and to all others who may have taken it that way. 

When I wrote that post, I had Just read his post above Scot's in which he had described... (well, you can read it). 

Scot said >>Well said

And I said >> (well you can read that, too)

For everyone knowledge, I was being sincere. I remember writing this post and my first inclination was to say "Amen" after Scot said >>> (well, you can read that above)

I sincerely am impressed with the Beekeeping community. For all of the different ways we do things and the different veiws which we think is best or better, I have learned that beekeepers are among the best educators there are. They generally genuinly enjoy sharing their knowledge and skills. They may be a bit opinionated, but they will gladly sit down with a cup of coffee under a shade tree and take hours out of their busy day to share with you.

I felt from reading Bill's post that he is among those humble people that make up the world-wide beekeeping ranks, that he doesn't desire prestige, and that he genuinly is interested in helping you, me, and every other beekeeper with a difficult or silly question.

I am sorry that my breif post might allude otherwise. (I wasn't writing a college thesis when I wrote it and probably didn't take the care that I should have.) I hope that this post is able to make the difference.

I sincerely offer my appologies to each of you but mostly to Bill. If there is anyone that you learn was turned off from reading this or any of these threads due to my mis-interpretable statements, or is otherwise offended, please let me know so that I may correct the issue. I will be intouch with Bill personally to insure a proper correction of my thoughts is presented, not that he is requiring that of me, but because he deserves it.
Sincerely
Waya


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Wayacoyote: I, for one, took it that you were sincere.


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

WOW 

What great responses, I have to say I would also be interested in this training and learning environment if only to improve myself. For those of you that go out to do speaking in the community like I do, it would be good to have some type of title based on training and experience with those you are speaking to. We could talk all day about the methodolgy of the practice and still be no futher ahead. I love beekeeping as I can see all of you on this forum do as well or you would not be so passionate in your postings. But we need to make sure this is a learning and sharing forum not to prove our points are correct over someone elses. All have value to some extent. We have different Ideas about how to manage them, and most all of them will work in one way or another but I still think a formal training would be of benifit to all of us. So do not sweat the small stuff because it is all small stuff.

Phillip Raines
Really Really good beekeeper


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Really Really Good Beekeeper (or do we call you Phillip  (that was a joke)

I see that you do speaking in your community. I am currious of the topic, since I enjoy this as well. I am a naturalist and do my talks on nature and conservation. What do you talk about?

Waya
Not so really really good beekeeper (that wasn't so much a joke)


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Waya,
Just for the record, I am not sure why your post was misinterpretted. Seems perfectly sincere to me.


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

hello

I mostly stay with the basics, hive structure, pollenation, honey types, difference in bee types, swarms and dispell myths. The last one they gave me 15 min to present and 5 min for Q&A. The Q&A lasted for 1 1/2 hours. It is a lot of fun. I always bring some honey for tasting and have a few jars that I give as raffle prizes. Most speaking topics do such a dictoral job people become bored, so I just get their imaginations going and let them do the rest with questions. This way they learn what they want to.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Raines,
I agree with the simplicity of your method. When i speak I too like to give something breif and then do Q&A. People stay interested and learn what they want to know


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Oh, and Mb, Scot, and others.
I want you to know that I Greatly appreciate the affirmations you wrote for me above. But seriously, reading what I wrote, it could be mistaken. 
Waya


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2005)

[No message]


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I think the master beekeeping title is a great thing for the hobbyist. It helps protect us from the back yarder who is rotten with foulbrood and doesn't know or care. How many billion spores in 1 3/4 full of honey ready to be robbed when the hive dies out. As a commercial operator I often miss some of the simple, master concepts, we all enjoy in this craft but are lost when we have to get through x numbers of hives in a day. I attended some EAS courses in my hobby days and they are well organized and enjoyable. Lets face it, It is a few let alone, lazy beekeepers with no pride in our craft that keep the disease reservoirs of the unattended deadout there to make our life a challenge!


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## simplyhoney (Sep 14, 2004)

I have never kept bees the bees keep me:

keep me busy,

keep me tired,

keep me away from home,

keep me chasing dreams,

keep me happy,

I would be rather leary of calling myself a "Master" anything, too much room for 
huberous.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

mike, move to the south...coffee at 2am is a snap being in the cradle of Waffle House...

As for certification value...if I keep my bees alive and healthy, and produce a good harvest of honey, that's my certification.

BubbaBob


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## uncletom (Apr 4, 2003)

Cornell university is advertising this course in gleenings for may.

"This workshop series provides individuals interested in becoming beekeepers with training 
in apiculture proportionate 
to their interest and needs"

http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/masterbeekeeper.htm

tom


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## djuniorfan8 (Jun 15, 2004)

I would love to reach that title "Master Beekeeper" but it's more a personal challenge for me. Will it increase honey sales? doubtful! but there's nothing wrong with reaching for that golden ring. Could any one put out a fire with a water hose? Sure, just put the "wet stuff on the red stuff" I still went through the Fire academy and learned the real details of it all. I went from Rookie Firefighter to Journeyman Firefighter over the years because of training and certifications. Some day I might be a Master Firefighter. To me it's the same as the Master Beekeeping. Unless you get the reasons and know how and detail of something, you'll neverfully understand. If your happy being a Beehaver and your current level of education, fine, but never knock someone for seeking knowledge. As for local clubs, i've learned much from the "old-timers" most of these guys have forgotten more then i'll learn. They didn't get their knowledge from books or the internet, they got it from actual EXPERIENCE. Which is the highest form in my book, if you don't open your ear to that, your missing out. Just my opinions, as usual the only thing Beekeepers can agree on is that the queen is female.
-Tim


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I'm ambivalent about certification.
I'm also introspective about retrospection.









On the one hand, a formal training program is
a great thing. NC, Cornell, and EAS all have
great courses, workshops and handouts, and
they cover very wide swaths of knowledge,
making almost a "complete education", delivered
on a sliver platter.

But we then have the problem of "requirements"
for being awarded a "title" of some sort.
Who presumes to decide? Most often, it is
people who simply don't produce honey by
the truckload, don't pollinate crops by the
acre, and therefore, are not forced to temper
their techniques to the reality of making
a profit. (Bob Cole of NC is a big exception
to this, and he is active in both EAS and the NC
state association.)

If I were to take the "EAS Master Beekeeper" test,
I would likely "fail" the written exam, as I
simply do not have the memory capacity to
memorize the amount of trivia Clarence Colson
thinks is required to prove my "knowledge".
I have built floor-to ceiling bookshelves on
nearly every wall in the house to act as my
"memory", so I see no reason to memorize
everything.

I also tend to differ on a few points that he
accepts as "fact". In the most recent Bee
Culture, Sue Cobey also took exception to
one of his monthly "What Do You Know" trivia
Q and A questions, so I see that I am not alone
in this.

For example, rewind the tape back to the early
days of varroa. Everyone kept showing slides
of Varroa jacobsoni, which is a perfectly
CIRCULAR creature. The actual varroa on our
bees were very oblong. Several beekeepers
with no particular "credentials" kept pointing
this out, but no one listened. During that
period, I'm sure that certification tests
would have included some sort of "name that
pest" section. Did they show a circular mite,
or an oblong one?









When you have kept anything over 100 hives, you
start to wonder where the line is between "dogma"
and actual verified facts, so you read papers,
and talk with people doing actual research, none
of whom have bothered to become Master Beekeepers
either.

After a while, you've run into enough people
who are Master Beekeepers, but don't try to
keep up with the actual leading-edge science
to make you realize that your time is better
spent with the white lab coat set.

Beekeeping can be as simple as George Imire
wants to make it, or as complicated as Clarence
Colson wants to make it. I think that each
person needs to make a choice about this, as
there is much that beekeepers are told to do
that when actually tested, makes no difference
at all to the bees. (We've discussed some of
them recently, like "reversing" and "what to
overwinter on"...)

So, I will likely remain merely the last of
the Jedi-Master Beekeepers, and not presume
to any "authority" or "credibility" handed
out by anyone else. ("Humble, a Jedi is.")

Delta Airlines used to say "We earn our wings
ever day." Beekeeping is like that, too.
My bees will show me how good a beekeeper I am.
I don't think I need a human's opinion.


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## hobbyfarm (Feb 18, 2005)

I spent a little time looking at the "Master Beekeeper" programs, and, it seems to me, that they are trying to follow (not copy) the USDA's "Master Gardener" program (albeit to a higher technical degree). They serve two purposes:

1) To provide a source for learning, and
2) To provide a contact point for beginners and the non-beekeeping (non-gardening) public.

I have been gardening, personally and/or commercially, on and off, for over 40 years. I know of no commercial farmers who would bother to call themselves "Master Farmers" or "Master Gardeners". That isn't the point. It's just that _some people_ (obviously, not you and I) feel more comfortable dealing with a "Master" than someone with years and years of experience.

Both programs stress public service and the sharing of knowledge. Frankly, I love having people come to my garden and listen to me babble on and on about something I love to do. If they learn a little and maybe start their own garden, be it a single tomato or pepper plant or a patch of petunias, me life is richer for it.

The "Master" title is a lot like Bullseye says: a indicator to the uninitiated that you are willing to share the knowledge you have. It is meaningless to our peers, personally satisfying, but something outsiders can look for and understand. I have found beekeepers to be an extremely outgoing and friendly bunch, willing to share. This may be because 97% of beekeepers (not hives) are hobbyists (a statistic I found while researching commercial honey production). Interestingly, I have not found all gardeners to be as forthright -- "I'm not about to tell you my secret formula for preventing damping off!". So, the title isn't for *US* , it's for *THEM*.

Kevin


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

It Is a title and some people need a title to feel important. I gain knowledge thru my bees and reading and helping 'old timers' who are willing to share their knowledge with those that are willing to ask and listen. I don't do well in a classroom setting and writting is not my best point, let alone keeping notes, mine are just breif scribbles on paper that only make sence to me. And writting a paper it would take me a year to complete 5 pages.
This is a hobby to me and good theripy, for my PTSD.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

well I'm going to the classes this year not because of a title or name but because it is something that holds interest in what i like to do, and what is it going to hurt, you know everybody can go to a program if they want to or if they dont they dont have to go. I like the Jedi Bemaster thing lol
here a little info on the steps and what you have to do to complete the steps in Ga, I personally want to do this.

http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/GMBP.htm


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

I'm glad for you, Tho in my statement I said "SOME" and I mean not all, SOME also have an ego problem, there again "SOME". A title allows them to boast and puff their chest, there again not all, some do see it as a challenge and to those I tip my hat to and say go for it.


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## uncletom (Apr 4, 2003)

Has anybody been to the cornell workshop? How was it? Worth the money?

I have been considering taking it, its only a few hours away.

tom


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Has anybody been to the cornell workshop?

I can tell you that it is well-respected,
and run by some of the best in the business.

> Worth the money?

If you are near Ithaca, it would be much,
much cheaper than other options, simply due
to travel costs. It is certainly "worth
the money", as it is one of the top few
workshop/lecture series in the Western
Hemisphere. The other top contenders are,
in my view:

Eastern Apicultural Society (Early August)
Heartland Apicultural Society (July)
The NC State Beekeepers program (various places)

EAS will be in Ohio this year, so both the
EAS and HAS meetings would be a bit of a haul
for you. North Carolina is also a long drive.


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

Georgia's program is excellent if that's your thing. I'm not knocking it, it just ain't "me".

BubbaBob


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

While I personally am not interested in certification as a "master beekeeper" any more than I am interested in certification as a "master gardener" (see my website http://www.selectedplants.com/ ), I do see value for some people in achieving the title.

For comparison, I went to a workshop a couple of years ago where our local "master gardeners" were answering questions from the public. It was fine until I heard them giving a very specific and very WRONG answer to a question about squash. I took the guy aside and told him the correct answer (symptoms of and how to deal with squash vine borers). The problem is that the master gardener program is more about the public service requirements than it is about knowing gardening.

The thing to keep in mind is that the master beekeeping programs are set up with much more personal development in mind. For example, does anyone know what the ratio of 4:2:1 has to do with honeybees? Think about sealed brood, larvae, and eggs. In the earlier part of this thread there was a lot of hoopla about using vs not using gloves. I personally haven't used gloves when handling bees since I bought a pair about 30 years ago and found out they were awkward and actually incited stinging. I don't have a problem with anyone else using them but would caution that in the past gloves have been implicated in spreading AFB.

So Mr Jedi Beekeeper, how good are you at Artificial Insemination of queens?

Fusion


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## uncletom (Apr 4, 2003)

Like others have said, I am not interested in titles. I have been called a lot of things in my years, never "master".

My interest in the Cornell workshop is purely educational.

Weather my profession or one of my vocations I believe:

I will never know everything;

I cannot know too much,

I can learn something from anybody. 

The mentors I once had, have long since gone to the big apery in the sky. 

I will fully admit that in spite of all the reading I do, I simply do not have a proper handle on managing mites. I have been keeping, or some of you might say having, bees for 30 years. I only have so many more left to learn what I need too.










tom


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<I have been keeping, or some of you might say having, bees >>

I dread the day that term makes it to this board.

<<I took the guy aside and told him the correct answer >>

Maybe it's just the master gardeners that I've met, but I've got an idea of the reception that advice got


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> So Mr Jedi Beekeeper, how good are you at 
> Artificial Insemination of queens?

I can do it, but I'm certainly not the
fastest gun in the West, or even the East.









I don't inseminate queens myself. I also don't
deliver my mail by hand, repair the roads,
or worry about the streetlights downtown. 
I buy queens, and I pay taxes to "buy" other
services best handled by specialists.

Hey, queen breeding is a whole 'nother business.

I'm not going to try and compete with Sue Cobey,
The standard-issue Naval Aviator line is:
"I don't fix 'em, I just fly 'em."

I do lots of post-mortems on bees to check
for nosema, tracheal and so on. I am much
more comfortable working with a bee that is
not going to mind what I do.


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## beegee (Jun 3, 2003)

There are probably folks who know more about bees than the combined PhD staffs of most universities, and wear no titles. The thing I like about NC's Master Beekeeper program is that it makes you realize that you have an obligation to gain and share knowledge. By taking the tests, you realize how important even the smallest details are. The practical tests are more to ensure that you can safely and effectively deal with your bees, as much for the bees as for you. I'm a Master Gardener. Am I a garden expert? Not hardly. But I never stop learning and never stop trying to help those who know less than I do. I'm working on my Journeyman Beekeeper's certification, which requires that I present at least 5 public presentations about beekeeping. My goal is to become a Master Craftsman beekeeper. To do that I feel like I'd better arm myself with correct knowledge and practical experience and not just be out there beating my own drum and giving out misconceptions and folklore.


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