# Harvesting all the honey out've a topbar and feeding syrup? I may have a problem



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

As I see the situation, the Lang beekeepers need to harvest before crystallization otherwise the honey will not come out of their combs when in the extractor. But since you are using crush and strain, crystallization is not a serious problem for you. So don't harvest honey the first year, and let the bees eat what they need over winter. Bees can eat crystallized honey. Here's more on that:
http://www.honeybeesuite.com/can-bees-eat-crystallized-honey/

Given your location, I would try to figure out, before you _might _actually need it, how you could feed your TBH bees, if needed.


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## And (Feb 15, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> As I see the situation, the Lang beekeepers need to harvest before crystallization otherwise the honey will not come out of their combs when in the extractor. But since you are using crush and strain, crystallization is not a serious problem for you. So don't harvest honey the first year, and let the bees eat what they need over winter. Bees can eat crystallized honey. Here's more on that:
> http://www.honeybeesuite.com/can-bees-eat-crystallized-honey/
> 
> Given your location, I would try to figure out, before you _might _actually need it, how you could feed your TBH bees, if needed.


Thanks for the info Graham, but the problem isn't harvesting it's the fact canola honey and our environment doesn't allow bees to gather water and make cleansing flights that the caused by the "undigestibles" in the honey. Syrup has very few "undigestibles". When the average temperature in winter is -30c bees won't be able to feed on the canola honey and will most likely die. 


Do you think if I harvest all the honey in the beginning of August and begin feeding syrup to my hive, that they'll be able to replace the honey and comb I take by the end of September?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

And said:


> ... the problem isn't harvesting it's the fact canola honey and our environment doesn't allow bees to gather water and make cleansing flights that the caused by the "undigestibles" in the honey.


Are you _sure _that canola honey really has this issue? Here's an interesting document discussing managing bees on canola, and there can be concerns, but it says nothing about anything related "undigestibles" with canola honey.
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/117112/bee-on-canoloa.pdf

I think you are asking for trouble taking all their comb in August and expecting it to be rebuilt and filled by the end of September. But I certainly could be wrong, and have never kept bees anywhere but Tennessee.


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## bejay (Jan 14, 2005)

And said:


> Do you think if I harvest all the honey in the beginning of August and begin feeding syrup to my hive, that they'll be able to replace the honey and comb I take by the end of September?


 no way they would have time to replace the comb and get stores built up for winter if you must remove the honey would look at ways to possibly extract it without destroying the comb.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

And - I would strongly recommend getting new hives to an area where there was a greater variety of flowers. A single monoculture crop won't cut it, especially canola / rapeseed. I would double my wager if I lived that far north. An area with more than half a dozen different crops well-timed would give you a better chance.

I would add pollen (or substitute) patties and I'd add essential oils to the sugar syrup, but my first priority would be to get those bees nearer to a greater variety of flowers.

Bejay is correct, but I would be sure to time the honey harvest early, not late. A failed fall bloom would doom your bees, comb or no comb.

Rader is also correct. Do not harvest the first year...let them build up.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have heard the concept that bees can't eat crystallized honey in the winter. I have never found it to be true. Our fall honey crystallized quickly. The bees don't seem to have any issues with it.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

The problem isn't with crystallized honey in general it is a problem specific to canola honey and long winters with no or few cleansing flights. 
You could try to set aside surplus honey from other sources like clover or alfalfa or any syrup comb built in spring to put back in the fall.
They will build comb during fall feeding but not sure if it would be enough to winter on. That would depend on how much and how early you start feeding.
I never extract the brood frames. I do make sure most of the honey is to the outside before I start feeding so that it will be consumed late winter or early spring when temperatures should allow for cleansing flights if needed.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

your issue as I understand it is comb storage. I would suspect that the backfilling of the broodnest are would be sufficient to handle this. In the TBH I use the brood bars are 1 1/4 wide and honey bars a 1 3/8 I use 20 brood and 10 honey. those 20 brood combs can be backfilled very quickly.


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## sammyjay (May 2, 2011)

Maybe you should contact Acebird about scratch and drain. He says he can get a fair amount of the honey out of the frames. You could do that then you could feed sugar syrup. Kilo, in the prairie provinces bees can usually build up enough to give a fair honey crop, sometimes more than 100 pounds. I'm not sure about top bar hives though.


Nathan


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Canola honey on the prairies for sure isan issue. Knowing this, I'm not sure why you would choose a top bar hive. Harvesting all the honey in august then trying to feed heavily could be tricky. I did meet a woman from Calgary that usese top bar hives. She undersupers them for the honey harvest. Maybe when you harvest in August the brood nest is large say, 8 frames and if you feed heavily they back fill most of those 8 plus build another 2-4 frames then you are fine.

Long live Langstroth.

Jean-Marc


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

You could extract the canola honey from the combs by scratching open the cappings and putting the full topbars under a strong langstroth hive...let the lang bees put the honey in combs that you can extract. Then, you can put the empty top bars/combs back in the TBH to fill on a fall flow, or by feeding.

deknow


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sammyjay said:


> Maybe you should contact Acebird about scratch and drain. He says he can get a fair amount of the honey out of the frames.


Not if it is crystallized, you will get nothing. In the case of a top bar hive with no frame structure it might be difficult to scratch and drain unless the tool was a heated paint scraper and you took your time not to break the comb.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

Canola honey granulates in a very short time so if you want to try getting the honey out by extraction or whatever method without damaging the comb it needs to be done within a week or two of the frames being capped. Keep a close eye on things.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Graham - Thank you for those articles!

And - One idea I would consider is to make creamed honey from the fast-crystallizing honeys such as the varieties of oilseed rape. Jean-Marc figures your honey extraction would be much easier with a Langstroth hive frame, and in addition, you'd harvest a lot more honey. 

Deknow has an innovative thought - a TBH box for brood and a Langstroth to extract honey by spinning it. Using Deknow's setup and making creamed honey, you'd enjoy the best of your entire honey situation, but you still have the issue of not enough variety for the bees. I'd suggest that you plant a food patch - as many native wildflower types as you could get seeds for - near your apiary.

Nathan - I doubt anyone gets 100 lbs using crush and strain in a TBH, even with 20 hours of sunlight on canola. That sounds more like Langstroth hive poundage with a good extractor, and getting those frames back on the hives quick. In years past, 200 lbs per hive average was exceeded, I only know of Wilmer Apiaries making big honey numbers anymore, down here U.S. side. I'm sure there are others, probably up in the Peace River Valley, exceeding 100 lbs per colony average, but I'd bet they are all using Lang' equipment. It takes 17 to 20 lbs of honey to make 1 pound of wax, so crush-and-strain just doesn't put out the high poundage that the Langstroth frames in extractors can. There are even studies that showed that the smell of fairly dry, extracted comb stimulates the bees to forage even harder at the beginning of a nectar flow.


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## Gord (Feb 8, 2011)

Just a thought, but what about feeding the bee jeezuz out of them as soon as you get them?
Add a bit of food colouring to the feed so you can visually determine how much syrup they put away, maybe a bit of feeding stimulant like HBH, and once/if they put enough away, stop the feeding and let them forage.

I don't know how this would work out...anyone care to weigh in?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> It takes 17 to 20 lbs of honey to make 1 pound of wax ....

Those numbers may be a little high. Courtesy of Michael Bush:




> From Beeswax Production, Harvesting, Processing and Products, Coggshall and Morse pg 35
> 
> "Their degree of efficiency in wax production, that is how many pounds of honey or sugar syrup are required to produce one pound of wax, is not clear. It is difficult to demonstrate this experimentally because so many variables exist. The experiment most frequently cited is that by Whitcomb (1946). He fed four colonies a thin, dark, strong honey that he called unmarketable. The only fault that might be found with the test was that the bees had free flight, which was probably necessary so they could void fecal matter; it was stated that no honey flow was in progress. *The production of a pound of beeswax required a mean of 8.4 pounds of honey (range 6.66 to 8.80)*.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

It's possible to extract topbar comb in standard gear, you just need a basket or cage (Warre mentions this in his book) to hold and protect the comb while it's being spun and it should be in a radial style machine vs a tangential to keep the forces as much in the plane of the comb as possible.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

kilocharlie said:


> It takes 17 to 20 lbs of honey to make 1 pound of wax, so crush-and-strain just doesn't put out the high poundage that the Langstroth frames in extractors can.


I think the numbers here are a bit reversed. A pound of wax comb can hold about 20 pounds of honey. It takes about 8 pounds of honey to make a pound of wax. So yes, you do lose production (bees making wax versus honey), but the upside is you are pulling old comb out faster. Hopefully you are pulling adverse chemicals out of the hive as you pull the comb out. 

You are right though, it is doubtful that you would get 100 pounds from a top bar, but it isn't impossible. I doubt I would ever see that in Virginia, but I hear that on a strong Sourwood flow they can really make honey quickly. I hope to see one of those heavy flows someday!


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

I haven't tried this but it is a possibility. You could try using a queen excluder to contain the brood nest. Similar to a single brood chamber honey production unit. You will need to manage the brood end of the hive by removing capped brood to the opposite side of the excluder from time to time. Replace them with empty bars.
If you can saving a supply of good brood combs and replacing the removed brood combs once the brood has emerged could be helpful. I'm thinking that at the end of the season very little honey will have been stored in the brood end which is what you'll find when using a single Langstroth brood chamber. You can then feed them up with syrup to winter on.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Most east coast beekeepers have fall aster, & goldenrod that crystallize in the hive. I've only heard of one beekeeper who removes it, then fills the hive with sugar water.
I doubt if its bad for the bees.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

It is true that the amount of honey to produce one pound of wax is a difficult quantity to determine experimentally. Dr. C.C. Miller was comparing total weights from comb honey-producing hives vs. liquid honey-producing hives in the same bee yards over several years when he arrived at the 17- to 20-pound approximation. 

Analyzing the chemical compounds of the average sugars in the honeys and the average fatty acids composing the wax gives numbers in the 4 lbs. to 9 lbs. to one range (depending on the fats and sugars), and there are indeed a lot of variables and a lot of ways to calculate it, each with it's pros and cons. Because I suspect that there is alot more involved that a straight conversion, I have always leaned towards Dr. Miller's crude calculation as probably closer to the truth, as the math is much less complex, and numbers in that ballpark have been repeated many times by other beekeepers. He usually produced 17 to 20 times as much liquid honey per colony as he did honey-in-the-comb per colony when comparing colonies of similar strength in the same locations. I would suppose that the ratio varies greatly as equal colony strengths go up or down, but that is a S.W.A.G. (Scientific [email protected]$$ed Guess) , not confirmed by the bees nor experimental data.

The bees probably have it figured better than we do, but I'd also bet that they are dealing with stress more often these days than they are optimistic about building comb. If you were a bee that lived on Wall Street, it's kind of like investing all your honey into wax when there is lots of bad economic news. Any way you slice it, I can't see a 100 lbs _per hive average_ happening very often out of a TBH using crush-and-strain. If it happens anywhere in North America, it happens in the Peace River or other BIG Canadian nectar flow during the 18- to 20-hours of sunlight either side of summer solstice on a good year. Canola _combined with clover and alfalfa_ is perhaps the best bet out there, although there are other very strong nectar flows other places as well. Not that it is impossible, just that it is improbable, but it happens on a regular basis and in a lot of places with Langstroth equipment and an extractor. If you actually do it with TBH and crush-and-strain, you're good, and you have really good bees 

The TBH brood box and Langstroth honey boxes that were suggested earlier would sure do the trick on a good year, with many of the benefits if a TBH to boot.


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## And (Feb 15, 2013)

I'll be trying the scratch and drain method for harvesting the honey in August, without crushing the comb. Albeit I won' be able to take out all the honey the remaining honey would be mixed with sugar syrup resulting in a mixture that shouldn't be hard for bees to ingest and shouldn't require them to source water. I don't know if I'll be successful or not but once thing is for sure; if I leave the rapeseed/canola honey the bees are guaranteed not to survive, canola honey requires them to source water something they cannot do in -30c weather. 

I want to thank you all for the responses as they were all very helpful. I didn't expect to receive so many responses but I'm glad I did. 

Thanks again,
And


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Now I am VERY tempted to try Deknow's suggestion - TBH brood boxes with Langstroth honey supers. Because I am a queen breeder, I will have lots of fresh drawn comb for Jay Smith / Henry Alley Cut Cell and /or Punch Cell queen rearing methods. I do have a feeling that bees will want to stay home better in a TBH or any situation with some natural-drawn comb. My hives that fared best last year had up to 25% foundationless comb. 

Any suggestions regarding top bar design? I will be using 10-frame medium Langstroth boxes.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I saw a video on Youtube were someone used a heatgun to uncap frames. That may be a good way to do try to extract. It didn't damage the comb and was very quick and clean.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Serious question, not sarcasm, but why would you? why not switch to a langstroth????


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

You might like Wyatt Magnum's new book, top bar hive beekeeping wisdom & pleasure combined.
It has a section on queen production, package bee production, commercial pollination etc...



kilocharlie said:


> Now I am VERY tempted to try Deknow's suggestion - TBH brood boxes with Langstroth honey supers. Because I am a queen breeder, I will have lots of fresh drawn comb for Jay Smith / Henry Alley Cut Cell and /or Punch Cell queen rearing methods. I do have a feeling that bees will want to stay home better in a TBH or any situation with some natural-drawn comb. My hives that fared best last year had up to 25% foundationless comb.
> 
> Any suggestions regarding top bar design? I will be using 10-frame medium Langstroth boxes.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thank you, Dan! I'll check into that. 

I did find six top bar designs online last night - lots of issues about keeping the beeswax starter strip attached and strong enough, so I'm thinking a dovetail strip cut right into the main piece. I like the arched splint idea, but my guess is that it is a lot of labor for a commercial guy.

Michael Bush just sent me a message - because TBH's have no gaps, they don't work well with supers. He suggested foundationless Langstroth frames - which I will probably try in the brood boxes, and foundation in the honey super frames. That way I still have the advantage of any frame fits in any box (I use all medium 10-frame Lang's).


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Phil Chandler, author of the Barefoot Beekeeper, recommends removing all possible honey and feeding sugar syrup.

His advice, not mine. But if you feel the canola honey will cause a problem in your environment it could be a good idea. There was a Canadian study where they found bees wintered on sugar syrup came through with lower nosema levels than bees wintered on honey, presumably because they has defacated less.

A note about sugar syrup. Mix it a thick as you can using hot water, and add a cup of vinegar to each 4 gallons. The vinegar is beneficial in several ways.

The other issue though, is getting comb built and syrup stored, at seasons end. It's rare, but I'm in agreement with DeKnow as per post #12 on this. Best to have the existing combs of canola emptied by other bees, and give the combs back to the TBH to refill with syrup.

Long term, you'll need to come up with an easier, simpler plan for having combs available for syrup, but for this season, i think you should do as DeKnow suggests and see how it works out. Having done it once, will probably give you ideas how the method could be improved / simplified.


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## And (Feb 15, 2013)

Thanks, 

I've also been told here in our bitter cold climate it's best to remove the honey, but could you explain why vinegar is beneficial? And should it be white vinegar, balsamic vinegar, or apple cider vinegar?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Vinegar makes the sugar syrup closer to the acidity level that honey is so it's easier on the bees. It also acts as something of a preservative so the syrup is less prone to mould while it's in the feeder. And finally, it can help "invert" the syrup but don't ask me what that means but whatever it is it's supposed to be good LOL. 

There is debate about which is the best vinegar to use with some claiming apple cider vinegar is best. Me, I just use whatever is to hand it all seems to work. However in your situation, you are wanting to reduce indigestable solids for the bees that they would have to excrete, so in my opinion, white vinegar would be best.

One other thing, if temperatures get below 50 f the bees will find it too cold to go into the feeder & remove the syrup. So you need to plan this so you'll have syrup stored before temperatures get too low. They'll take syrup from an overhead feeder at lower temperatures, as the warmth rising from the cluster warms it. But in a TBH an overhead feeder may not be possible.


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

gmcharlie said:


> Serious question, not sarcasm, but why would you? why not switch to a langstroth????


that was my thought in the beginning. i understand the appeal and romanticism of the TBH but it just may not work their. especially if you are have serious issues with dysentery and canola crystallization. the fact is that LANGS are the way to go. im blessed that we run both here. langs and tbh's. but if one design didnt work i would head to necessity .


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

shannonswyatt said:


> I saw a video on Youtube were someone used a heatgun to uncap frames. That may be a good way to do try to extract. It didn't damage the comb and was very quick and clean.


i saw that too. made me fel like an idiot after uncapping all last year (first year) with a standard heat gun hahahaha. im gonna try it this year....looks like a blessing ! except no cappings for the kids and neighbor kids to get caught getting in to :no:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I know people who use apple cider vinegar as a Nosema preventative. I have tried it (and distilled vinegar) in syrup and it seemed to set off far more robbing than plain syrup or syrup with ascorbic acid in it. It has too much smell, in my opinion, to be a good feed that won't set off robbing.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Yes, I put some vinegar/sugar syrup out in an open feeder in the fall. It was insane. Apparently they love them some vinegar.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well it should go without saying to NOT have the hive set up in a way that allows robbing. I *never* have robbing when feeding syrup, with vinegar, I'm happy to discuss hive layout if anyone wants that.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It was insane. 

That was my experience. It was far more than robbing. It was a frenzy. They could even smell me coming with a bucket (even though the lid was on) when I was going out to fill the feeders.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well all due respect but it only goes like that if you allow robbing to start in the first place.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Okay, Oldtimer, I'll bite....What is your favorite setup to discourage robbing?

I'm at a (very sad) point of having to re-build my apiary, so any advantages I can build in wouldn't hurt. I'll probably try the vinegar trick with great caution, and apple cider vinegar to stimulate feeding when it is appropriate, though that may involve use of the robber cage, or perhaps hive nets.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well what I do is a bit different than a TBH keeper would have to do. But there's a few common elements. No syrup should be spilled or left unattended, once bees find it & get some, if it's got vinegar in it they'll then learn to associate that smell with feed, and will be flying around the apiary trying their luck with any hive that has that smell, ie, has been fed. 

As to the hive set up there must be an entrance right next to the main bee cluster where there are plenty of bees right there, able to defend the entrance. The entrance should not be to one side, or away from the main cluster, and the entrance should be small enough for the bees to easily guard. There should be a good body of bees between the entrance and the feeder. So any robber trying it's luck would have to fight it's way through the whole hive. So in a lang for example, a top entrance while feeding would be a complete no no. There should be a small bottom entrance, the bee cluster right next to the entrance, the feeder on the top of the hive, and no holes in the hive that a bee could fit through.

Even with all that, if robbing starts, robbers _en mass_, can overwhelm even a well set up hive. So it's very important during the feeding operation, to open the hive, get feed in, close the hive, all as quick as possible. Spill nothing, don't give robbers a chance to even get a taste. Then you don't get mass attacks, and the hives are able to defend themselves against the fewer bees that have a try. Don't feed weak hives that will not be able to defend themselves. How to feed them? Make them strong from another hive, then feed at a later date.

When hives are fed syrup, the whole hive can get pretty excited, and the extra activity at the entrance can give the game away to other bees that may then investigate & attempt to rob. If this may be likely, feed in the evening. However, as a commercial beekeeper, we had to work all day obviously. So we had to be fairly obsessive about not allowing anything to get started in the first place.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Wow! Am I glad I asked! THANK YOU, that was a great response, on par with the writings of C.C. Miller or G.M Doolittle. I see that a feeder hose with an excellent anti-drip stop on the spout will be a big help, and a tank that seals in the smell. Also, feed boxes that are wide will help reduce spillage.

I think my routine will change - from one guy opening all the lids while another guy feeds patties, then the first guy feeds liquid, then the second guy closes lids to something more like the following:

Both guys cork all holes, and close all entrances. One guy opens a lid while the other guy covers the hive with a net. After they are all open, both guys start feeding patties, then about two-thirds of the way through, one breaks off and starts feeding syrup. The other guy finishes with the patties, then goes to closing hives under each net, then the syrup guy finishes with the syrup, and goes to removing the nets off the closed hives and both guys open entrances after they are all fed. Corks can stay in for a day or two - make them eat first!

The arrangement you mention is better than the one I was using, forcing a robber bee to go through a one-bee opening and directly through a large, defensive cluster to a feeder on the opposite end of the hive. And, like you say, be obsessive about not letting them get started in the first place. THAT will really help!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmm... well thanks for the compliment although not really deserved.

Yes a feeder hose with a tap on the end is exactly what we used, fed by a gasoline powered pump on the truck.

Our routine was similar to what you suggested. We set up the hives and put top feeders on. Long as there was no sign of robbing we might set up the whole yard. But the actual feeding was a 2 man operation, one guy using the hose, and another guy right behind him putting lids back on. The hive was fed and closed in seconds. We didn't feed pollen.

But if it looked like robbing may start we would work the whole thing on a hive by hive basis, and if necessary, pack up and leave. Better that than lose hives to robbing.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

So, I suppose you were using something like a Miller hive-top feeder box?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Not sure exactly what the Millar feeder looks like but in any case what we used was a super dimensioned wooden box around 6 inches deep, with an internal groove cut just above the bottom of it to fit a piece of board. There was a hole in the middle of the board with a wooden funnel nailed on for the bees to go up & get the syrup. Whole thing was wax dipped to seal it, it could hold (from memory) around 4 gallons. But any top feeder is fine for this type of work.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Well all due respect but it only goes like that if you allow robbing to start in the first place. 

The way to avoid robbing is to avoid the things that set it off, like too wide an entrance, entrance feeders, smell in the syrup, feeding honey (because of the smell), spilling syrup, feeding the weak ones... etc. etc. etc. Usually it takes all of those to succeed at avoiding robbing.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Not sure exactly what the Millar feeder looks like

_Oldtimer_'s description of the top feeder certainly matches a Miller style feeder. An illustration of a completed feeder and plans to build your own are here:

http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/miller-type-feeder/

Of course, a top feeder like this is intended for a Lang style hive, and this is the _Top Bar_ forum. :lookout:


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thank you, Oldtimer.

Thank you Michael Bush for suggesting the foundationless Lang' frames as an alternative to the TBH.

Thank you, Graham for the plans reference. BTW, my best hive top feeeders so far are the ones with the biggest float and the smallest holes (1/4") in the float. In cold weather, I use inverted 5-quart pails with #60 holes drilled in the lids. Of course, it rarely gets fondant board cold here in SoCal.


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