# Caging Virgin Queens and Introducing Into Nuc



## Jim Young (Aug 31, 2004)

How many hours should a newly emerged virgin queen be caged in a queenless mating nuc containing bees from another hive prior to being released from the cage? 

The newly emerged virgin queen is removed from a caged supercedure queen cell, transferred to a retaining cage and placed between the frames in the mating nuc. 

Will newly emerged virgin queens in cages be fed by nurse bees from another hive; or, should the caged virgin queen be given nectar prior to being placed in the nuc?


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

I leave her caged about 2 days then place here in the mating nuc that also has been queenless for a few days.When I go to place the virgin into the Mating nuc I tare off all emergence Queen cells in MN I will then place the Queen into the nuc in the queen cage that has some candy in the hole so that they can eat her out 


<>Will newly emerged virgin queens in cages be fed by nurse bees from another hive; or, should the caged virgin queen be given nectar prior to being placed in the nuc? 

If the nuc has been queenless a few days they will feed her.

When I place a virgin in a cage I will also place 2 worker bees with her and Candy for them to feed on in the cage


I would put candy in with her and let them eat her out in the calm of the hive when it is not being disturbed by the keeper.

Never had much luck in a direct release


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## Jim Young (Aug 31, 2004)

Velbert, thanks for the response. I'll try the candy plug release versus a manual release after a period of time. 

I was concerned about how long a virgin queen could be caged because three queens caged in three different nucs were dead after being caged for 72 hours. Five other virgin queens caged for 48 hours in nucs were surviving when I manually released them from the screened cage into the nuc. I was wondering if caging a virgin queen in a queenless nuc for 24 hours would be sufficient time for the nuc to accept her without balling her upon being manually released.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi Jim 

From the time a queen hatches until the end of the 3RD day she has no Q pheromones which she receives at the end of the 3rd day. Could be the reason they excepted the 48 hour virgins.

The virgins I put in when they are under 3 days old a lot higher % is excepted. but i put them in a Queen cage with candy usually they have them out in about 12 hours and they get their Pheromones while in the hive. I have read they usually don't pay as much of attention to the real young virgins with out the pheromones

Also if the nuc was not queenless for a long enough time this also will effect acceptance

I placed 10 virgins in my mini nucs went back and found all but 1 dead in the cages the other they released and was doing good

only difference was the 9 that were dead I just placed them on the bottom of the box the other i squeezed between the frames by the brood. 

don't know for sure if that was the reason or not but i think it was.Because the next 12 I placed the 2 day old virgins between the frames and it worked great 11 was alive and roaming around the 12th there was a piece of comb built in the feeder I think she may have been there.

So where did you place the 72 hour virgins when you introduced them.

Also you sure there was not another queen in them or an advanced Queen cell


<> I was wondering if caging a virgin queen in a queenless nuc for 24 hours would be sufficient time for the nuc to accept her without balling her upon being manually released.<>mabe.

The nuc NEEDS to BE QUEENLESS 24 hours before you place The Virgin for her 24 hour stay Then it will be more likely she will be excepted but no guarantee 

I placed 40 virgins in 3 frame nuc they released them about 10 left with all the bees 26 no Queens to be found The end results 4 laying Queens not good.

And getting them excepted with direct release depends also how calm the queen is when you place her in the nuc if she just runs in 99% of the time they will ball her.


was the 3 that was killed where they from the same Queen or race of bees

[ July 18, 2006, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Velbert ]


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## Jim Young (Aug 31, 2004)

Velbert, thanks for the additional detailed information on virgin queens. I'm inclined to believe your discussion has solved the issue of my virgin queens dying while being caged for 72 hours. 

I'm rearing queens from a single breeder queen using a method published by David A. Cushman: http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/method1.html However, I have modified the method to harvest excess capped queen cells using push-in screen cages. Each newly emerged virgin queen is re-caged and introduced into either a two or four frame nuc without any food source added to the cage. I was under the impression that nurse bees would feed virgin queens through the screen wire. The caged virgin queen is placed between a capped brood frame and a nectar frame near the topbars. Each nuc is made-up using frames of nectar and capped brood with accompanying bees from individual hives of similar strain or race of bees; thus, frames of bees in the nuc are not co-mingled with frames from other hives. Any emergency queen cells are destroyed.

Based on prior discussions of virgin queens in the Beesource archives and your discussion, I'm inclined to believe my three virgin queens, which were caged 72 hours prior to being released, died as a result of starvation and dehydration. Thus, insuring the caged virgin queens have access to a source nectar will probably increase the chances of them surviving the 72 hours of being caged. I'm considering caging each virgin queen in a separate nuc over open nectar using a push-in screen cage and then manually releasing her 72 hours later providing the bees haven't chewed away the comb around the edge of screen cage and already released her.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Sounds Good Jim


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

I just lost 3 cages virgin queens myself. They were my first attemp to raise my own queens. I did not know that I needed to put food in for them because I have never read that before, but now someone told me that they can and have to feed themselves the first few days. I had thought the house bees would feed them, but I was wrong. 

What i did was put capped queen cells in cages and then put the cages in queenright hives thinking they would be feed. But when I opened the cages, the queens had hatched, but in every case were dead. I think it was starvation. What do you guys think?
Bill


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

The Best way i have found is to put at least 1 / 2 or 3 workers with some queen cage candy you can make from powder sugar and corn syrup or honey if you know the source is disease free. I made the same mistake years ago almost all the queens were dead,they crawled back into the cell had eaten all the left over royal jelly and died what i think was starvation (NOTE they were in a queen-less hive)


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

After not having a great take on some virgins we tried to introduce (put into queenless nukes with enough candy to keep them for only a few hours) I asked a friend who used to work in the bee lab in Madison Wisconsin. He said they introduced them with a special plastic cage and had stellar results. One side had the tunnel for about an inch of candy, or three days worth. The other had about a days worth of candy over a queen excluder. After going through that candy in about a day, the bees could get in with her but she could not get out into the general population for about three days. I assume by that time she had the scent of the hive and her own pheromones so she was readily accepted.
I am going to try that next year for experimentation but we find the best (and easiest) acceptance is to put the cell intself in the queenless nuke and let it hatch uncaged. If there is brood in the nuke (but no queen cells) just about all of them take.
The only reason we had virgins at all was we didn't have nukes shook yet to put the cells in, and I didn't want to throw the cells away. 
Sheri


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## Hook (Jun 2, 2002)

I raise my queens in an incubater. I usually wait at least 3 days before introducing her anywhere. A weak nuc, will usually let her right in. If she is a different race, it is not always that easy. I then keep her caged for a day and the nuc has been queenless for a few days. I actually do this method everytime. It's a proven system for me. Ad far as feeding her, I guess as stated, she smells right, and the bees usually flock right to her, so food is not an issue. By day five, she is ready to mate, and things usually go smoothly. I start looking for eggs at day 10. Sometimes they are there, somrtimes they are not.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Queen less for 24 hours and pop in a Ripe Queen cell about read to hatch in the next 10-12 hours hours is the best way all around. I agree 100% as to what Sheri said.


One year I had a brain storm and at the last of march I just re queen 100 hives Full Size not nuc or divides with Queen cells and it work great. I think what I like the most about it was I had new queens and they didn't want to swarm (what a relief)also I caught the hive before they started wanting to build Queen cells to swarm.(once they start their own Queen cells to swarm it don't work near as good if you don't watch close they will go ahead and swarm(some times they will swarm even if you have destroyed all the Queen cells they will build one from a young larvae and your Queen you raise goes with the swarm

[ August 01, 2006, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Velbert ]


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## Spigold (Jul 31, 2004)

Sherrie and Velbert for re-queening have you ever just killed queens and imediatley inserted a ripe cell?  Or do they need sometime being queen-less? 
I will try to remeber to report back becasue I have cells coming off in 10 days. I plan to try a few experiments with re-queening on nucs and full size hives.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi spigold 

Usually overnight works say 12 Hours.

If you were to place the queen cell right after you have removed the Queen from the Full size hive or just a smaller nuc they still have some of the old queens pheromones and they will tare it up (it could possibly work if you were to use cell protectors so they cant tare them up from the side all that they have access to is the tip where the cocoon is and it is a lot tougher and if they were to try to start trying to tare it down it would take longer a mabe by then they would realize that they lost there Queen. A full Size I like to leave them QUEEN LESS 24 hours Gives them a little more time realizing they are Queen less and that the pheromones are not present from the old Queen. If you wait to long in a full size hive they will start emergency cells this some times will cause they to destroy your cell ( the best way that has worked for me is make Queen less 12-24 hours Put in ripe Queen cell that will hatch in the next few hours say 12-24 hours)Lots of time if the hive is real aggressive they will destroy your Queen cell also.


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## CarolinaBee (Jul 21, 2018)

Hook said:


> I raise my queens in an incubater. I usually wait at least 3 days before introducing her anywhere. A weak nuc, will usually let her right in. If she is a different race, it is not always that easy. I then keep her caged for a day and the nuc has been queenless for a few days. I actually do this method everytime. It's a proven system for me. Ad far as feeding her, I guess as stated, she smells right, and the bees usually flock right to her, so food is not an issue. By day five, she is ready to mate, and things usually go smoothly. I start looking for eggs at day 10. Sometimes they are there, somrtimes they are not.


I am currently doing this. Its my first attempt. Thank you.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I never have had much luck introducing virgin queens. Dee Lusby says you need to run them in as soon after they hatch as you can. She just smokes them heavily and runs them in. I have done this (though often it's been a couple of days before I get around to it). I try to let her run in and if she refuses I figure that mating nuc still h as a virgin queen in there. I have had ok results with this, though not 100% by any means. I have never succeeded at introducing a virgin in a cage.


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