# CDL



## rlsiv (Feb 26, 2011)

*Re: 2000 Frieghtliner FL-80 (my first born)*

How about:
Trip Reports/IFTA(fuel tax) filings
DOT #
DOT inspections
Having to develop/maintain a "safety program" for youself
Hours Of Service - Driver's logs
Being limited to only driving a few hours total in a day if you've spent the first 8 hours doing "non-driving" work.

etc.
And lets not forget that if you hold a CDL license and get a speeding ticket (even in your car), there is almost nowhere in the country you can get that ticket "fixed" or amended.

There is a lot more to getting/having a CDL license than just passing the test.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

*Re: 2000 Frieghtliner FL-80 (my first born)*

The best thing to do is look for ways to operate through exemption and exception in the vehicle code and FMVSS ie, vehicle length, weight, license, hrs of service, etc.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

*Re: 2000 Frieghtliner FL-80 (my first born)*

actually rlsvi you have to do all that (besides the IFTA) on any commercial vehicle which means any thing over 10,000 Gross vehicle weight rating.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*Re: 2000 Frieghtliner FL-80 (my first born)*

Not in California. I have a 15000 gvw and a 19000 gvw and don't have to do anything more than I do for a 10000 gvw. 
I just downgraded my license from a B to a C, but still have one 10200 gvw bobcat trailer that requires an A, which is ridiculous. I hear it is a $1000 fine if we get caught.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

*Re: 2000 Frieghtliner FL-80 (my first born)*

Yep, Frank is correct...a perfect example of what I have mentioned.


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## dbest (Aug 9, 2005)

*Re: 2000 Frieghtliner FL-80 (my first born)*



rlsiv said:


> How about:
> Trip Reports/IFTA(fuel tax) filings
> DOT #
> DOT inspections
> ...


Who tells you this stuff? I own several trucks and drive one OTR. Plus I manage 5 others. We like to call Log books Comic books. Wait until the end of the day. If you've been driving somewhere far start filing it out and then finish it so it looks good. But that only applies if your operating outside your 150 mile radius. Buy this...read It:

http://www.jjkeller.com/webapp/wcs/...y-Regulations-Pocketbook_10151_-1_10551_59244


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## rlsiv (Feb 26, 2011)

*Re: 2000 Frieghtliner FL-80 (my first born)*

Dbest - I take it you disagree with part or all of the items in my post? Which ones in particular? To answer your question: I've spent most of the last 20yrs in the transportation industry. In my post, I'm assuming the OP is traveling (at least occassionally) outside a 'local' operating radius - based one the mileage he has put on during his term of ownership. As for 'comic books', just because that is the way you run your operation doesn't mean it is the right (in the strictly legal sense) way to do it, according to the DOT. Granted, I usually deal with larger carrier operations, and the 'little guys' generally draw less attention - but the same rules apply. If you're running across state lines, you have an IFTA obligation - period. If you spend 6-8hours in the morning doing non-driving work (typically warehouse or loading work), your HOS available are reduced by that same amount of time. How about hazmat? In Very small quantities, you're certainly exemp.... But go buy a couple of bulk barrels of chemicals used to treat hives and now you're a hazmat carrier for the day, including the need for proper placarding, etc. Plenty of people can and do get away with minor 'comic book' violations, and some get away with more serious infractions..... But that doesn't make it the 'right' way.


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## dbest (Aug 9, 2005)

*Re: 2000 Frieghtliner FL-80 (my first born)*

Do me a favor...Read that book...oh and bees are not Hazmat. As for what I disagree with...I'd have to say its your lack of a connection to reality.


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## kbenz (Feb 17, 2010)

he didn't say nothing about bees being hazmat he said "But go buy a couple of bulk barrels of chemicals used to treat hives and now you're a hazmat carrier for the day,"


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I think IFTA only applies to over 26000 GVWR. I don't think you need a DOT number either unless you cross state lines or go over 150 mi.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

You might want to check on DOT and IFTA regs from the feds. I believe anything and everything registered over 10K needs DOT.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

IRP & IFTA (Apportioned Plates & Fuel License)	
53
IRP -International Registration Plan is the registration required for vehicles over 26,000 pounds that cross state lines. Also known as Apportioned Plates and Prorate Account. IFTA is the fuel tax decals and license for the same vehicles.
: $298.00
Detailed Description
What is IRP and IFTA?

The International Registration Plan (IRP) and International Fuel Tax Agreement (IFTA) are cooperative programs to collect and distribute registration and fuel tax revenue between member states and Canadian provinces. The programs benefit carriers by consolidating licensing and reporting requirements through the base (home) state.

Who is required to have IRP and IFTA?

An IRP and IFTA account is required for companies that have vehicles crossing state lines that are over 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight or have 3 or more axles on the power unit.

http://interstateauthority.com/irp.aspx


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

As far as this stuff goes I couldn't get the same answer twice when asking Highway patrol, commercial DMV, NDOT, etc. 
I'm still not clear but expect it will be explained by the next cop that gives me a ticket.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Im not sure about the IFTA. I thought IFTA only applied to those over 33K. However I was told by NYS DOT Officer that if my truck is registered over 10K I need a DOT number.


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## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

Doesn't most, if not all of this stuff only apply to 'for hire' vehicles, and/or if the vehicle is being operated by a paid driver? 

If you are the owner, moving your own equipment, not hiring out or paying a driver, it used to be that you only had to follow the safety and weight restrictions. Of course, I have not been in a truck for many years, and know that things do change.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No Daniel, if a vehicle registered Commercial or Agricultural is of 10,000 lbs GVW the vehicle has to have a State or US DOT Number visiblly displayed on both sides of the vehicle of suffiecient size to be seen by Troopers. One is also required to have a Name (your personal name or company name) on the side of the vehicle too.

If you want to get more than one answer from DOT, ask any number of different DOT Officers and/or State Troopers.

If you are ticketed, ask the Officer for the Regulation Code Number. Politely, not defensively, of course. They are supposed to show it to you, if you ask for it.


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## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

Hmm, OK, then some things may have changed since I had my trucks. My name was on the sides of them, with 'not for hire' displayed. Moving my own equipment around the country I never had an issue. In fact, a class a or CDL license was not even required.

Now, in fact, I have a friend who owns a Freightliner Conventional tractor. He lives in Arizona. We worked together in Alaska. He has no CDL license but moves equipment to and from Alaska nearly every year, but only for himself, as the owner of the truck and the owner of the equipment. That means that he crosses multiple states, and a foreign country, up and back. He has no CDL license, no fuel stickers, doesn't keep a log book of any kind, and to my knowledge has never been ticketed for other than speeding.

If everything that is being said here is cut in stone, I am wondering if there is an aspect to the issue that most are not aware of.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

More likely lucky would be my guess, on your friend.

If I drive my F-450 (16,000lb GVW) and trailer (9,900 lb GVW) from NY to SC and get stopped for a DOT check in each State, each State will treat me differently. Because the Officers aren't aware of what is allowed in each of the other States.

Such as, when going thru a Scale House in NC, the Officer wanted to ticket me for being overweight on my truck because the truck & trailer combined weighed over 16,000 lbs. I asked him to check w/ his Supervisor and that straightened that out. And down the road I went.

Education is expensive. Learning what is required, one ticket at a time, may be the way to go. That's how I got the number and then the name on the side of my truck.


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## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

I really am not trying to, or wanting to argue. Your experience is what it is. I really was just trying to see if things really have changed as much as what some of you are saying. It also 'used' to be that if you were legal in your home state, you were legal anywhere else in the country. From what you are saying, that may or may not still be the case. The supervisor letting you go makes me think so, but you may have just gotten "lucky" that day.

It is just curious to me that there may still be alternatives or options that can be used to avoid the added expense of a commercial designation, which really should not be 'always' necessary. If you are a large enough operation to need drivers, are moving bees or equipment for others, or a hauling back to defray costs then you have no choice but a commercial designation. Otherwise, there may be another way to get it done without.

No, Gary is not lucky  He is just a get it done guy. If it doesn't work one way, he will do it another.


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## FarmerJ (Feb 23, 2011)

weight class is somewhat convoluted.

Up to 10K GVWR is a Class C, 
10K to 26,000 GVWR, trailers under 10K lb is Class B (generally considered a "straight truck)
26,001 and Up GVWR, trailers over 10K lb is a Class A. (generally considered a semi-truck/trailer combination).




> (a) Vehicle group descriptions. Each driver applicant must possess and be tested on his/her knowledge and skills, described in subpart G of this part, for the commercial motor vehicle group(s) for which he/she desires a CDL. The commercial motor vehicle groups are as follows:
> Code of Federal Regulations207
> (1) Combination vehicle (Group A)—Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).
> (2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B)—Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR.
> (3) Small Vehicle (Group C)—Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that meets neither the definition of Group A nor that of Group B as contained in this section, but that either is designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver, or is used in the transportation of materials found to be hazardous for the purposes of the Hazardous Materials Transportation Act and which require the motor vehicle to be placarded under the Hazardous Materials Regulations (49 CFR part 172, subpart F).


As to who needs a DOT number displayed;
ALL vehicles used in commercial use, property or passengers, are required to display a number.
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/truck/vehicle/marking.htm

As to who is required to "Log"...
It's the 100 mile rule. Basically, if you return home each and every night, you won't have to run a log book.

But that doesn't expempt you from doing a vehicle inspection.

Just remember any piece of paper you are required to fill out is a LEGAL document admissable in a court of law and WILL be used against you.


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## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

Commercial use is the key wording there.

I just realize the flaw in my thoughts. I was overlooking the commercial intent with regard to bees. If you are moving them to someone elses fields, for the purpose of pollination, etc... and getting compensation, then you are putting your personally owned goods to commercial use. In that respect then you are in fact engaging in commercial activity. I suppose that would also apply if you were moving them between your own fields, but selling the honey. 

A neat little box I find myself in with this 

Thank you for the indulgence, and please carry on  I will try and think a little further down the road before I butt in again.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

FarmerJ said:


> weight class is somewhat convoluted.
> 10K to 26,000 GVWR, trailers under 10K lb is Class B (generally considered a "straight truck)


That is a class C. Over 26K GVWR plus trailer under 10K is a "B". If caught beyond 100 miles or going over state lines you can get busted for not having a log book. 
We had a few other threads on this topic when I was shopping around for a truck and I first thought there might be a way around all the regs but it didn't turn out that way. I purchased a truck at 26K GVWR which did allow me to drive with a class C, but I am still stuck with DOT because I take bees into California across state lines (makes it federal) and a stupid log book when going into California. All of those exemptions for beekeepers really amounted to dropping the medical card requirement. Now IFTA is another story. At this time I don't think IFTA is required for vehicles under 26K GVWR but I am only one ticket away from a different opinion. Once I get a forklift I am one ticket away from the common argument regarding combined vehicle weights not exceeding 26k. My understanding, at this time, is that a class C license will allow us to pull an under 10K GVWR trailer with and under 26001 GVWR truck, meaning a GCW of under 36K. I spent hours researching this crap and it only confirms my belief that most of government is a waist of money. The authorities I have talked with don't agree on anything with both commercial and non-commercial DMV's being the most ignorant in my location. A State Highway Patrol pulled me over and he assured me that I needed a DOT number and name of business on door, a log book when going over state lines or over 100 mi, no medical card because of beekeeping, service records, safety triangles, fire extinguisher, and an annual DOT service inspection. The remaining wild cards for me are pulling under 10K trailer and IFTA. Careful about alcohol - I think the FMCSA requires blood alcohol under 0.04%. Also, according to the FMCSA safety requirements, you need to have replacement fuses of all sizes needed for the operation of the vehicle.


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## FarmerJ (Feb 23, 2011)

HVH,
May want to go back and read the definition above.

It's straight from the FWHA. Not my wording. That's why the link is there.


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

> but I am only one ticket away from a different opinion.


 Unfortunately HVH your opinion nor mine mater to the scale dogs, it all boils down to what donut they had that morning and how the wife kissed them on the way out the door


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

FarmerJ said:


> HVH,
> May want to go back and read the definition above.
> 
> It's straight from the FWHA. Not my wording. That's why the link is there.


Its hard to tell tone from a post but I am not in the least bit argumentative. The FWHA quote you posted "(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B)—Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR." clearly states "26,001 pounds or more". I figured that your assessment was a typo.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

HONEYDEW said:


> Unfortunately HVH your opinion nor mine mater to the scale dogs, it all boils down to what donut they had that morning and how the wife kissed them on the way out the door


That's the sense I get. I have all the regs in my truck, bookmarked and ready to present.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Better determine first whether being right is worth the extra hassle of a more deep screwtiny. (incorreectly spelled on purpose)

Which is worse? No Log Book or one not filled out?


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I will keep a log book during the time of year where I travel to California only. That way I can't get busted for not having it but rather only for butchering it. During the rest of the year, the log book is not required and would only provide one more thing to criticize.


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## FarmerJ (Feb 23, 2011)

HVH said:


> Its hard to tell tone from a post but I am not in the least bit argumentative. The FWHA quote you posted "(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B)—Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR." clearly states "26,001 pounds or more". I figured that your assessment was a typo.


No issues...

I think we are both trying to say the same thing, just not following the other person....


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## beedave (Apr 23, 2006)

I think it's easier to let a professional driver haul your bees interstate and then show up in your Ranger pickup....they don't hassle them at the scale like a poor beekeeper with a 1-ton loaded with bees and a forklift. Though every state is different in their enforcement and depending on "what donut they had that morning and whether their wife kissed them as they left the house" type of deal. I can say that I've been there done that got the usdot # and all the bs it provides. Interstate commerce for agriculture sure isn't what it used to bee....


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I hear ya Beedave, the only problem is with that plan you have to own a "hotshot" rig in each state you operate in. We use plan B; the fundamentals of which are avoiding scales as much as is practical to avoid hearing the dreaded "pull it over and bring in your paperwork"


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

unless it has been changed inthe last 6 months...if you are involved in transporting bees in seasonal movement andthey are your bees you are not required to do a log book. i have been pulled in numerous times with no log book...each time i walk out the door with no ticket. Once whenasked i told officer i had been on road 17 hrs straight...i though she was going to go belistic..thensupervisor said hes not required to have log bood...she gave em a real good look! lol


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## beedave (Apr 23, 2006)

ever been thru echo UT?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I dont think I would run without a log book if you roam thru NYS. According to a NYS DOT Officer the only thing beeks are exempt of is the annual DOT physical due to our "Apiary Industries" work. Other than that he stated we are to follow all other commercial laws set forth by DOT.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, how much of a Log Book do you keep? Do you fill it out every day? Or every time you travel anywhere in NYS in your truck? I have never been asked for my Log Book. Now it's going to happen I'll bet.

I was told that I need a DOT Number for my Ford Transit Connect, because it is a Company Vehicle. But that turns out not to be true.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

unless its been changed in last 6 months i will take issue with the dot in ny as in the dot manual it specifically states im not required to carry log book. i ll see if they have changed it.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

The really sad thing here is that layer upon layer of bureaucracy makes everyone more confused and less efficient.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Haven't started to keep a Log Book. When someone tells me to, I will.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

BMAC said:


> According to a NYS DOT Officer the only thing beeks are exempt of is the annual DOT physical due to our "Apiary Industries" work.


Actually, you are exempt from "Driver Qualifications" in it's entirety:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrguidedetails.aspx?menukey=391

Everything else including Hours of Service (Logbook), maintenance ect......applies.
There is a LOT of misinformation floating around on this thread and I would incourage all of you to make a better attempt of knowing what you are doing.

One thing I do when working at home is to eat my lunch at the computer and study.
None of us know everything, but it is up to each of us to make the best attempt to learn as much as we can about our business.
And when it comes to DOT and interstate trucking; this is not just message board chit-chat. This is drop dead serious business.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Well I dont have time to sit and study anything these days. So I have to take the word of those who will issue me a ticket that I have to either pay or waste more time in front of a judge trying to plea my case 10 hours from home. The officer I spoke with might be dead wrong but if he issues me a ticket and says hey if you jump up and down on the white line 10 times to avoid this ticket I think I will jump 10 times. 

So I do carry log bood with my truck that has a DOT number on it. Now that isnt to say I dont fudge the numbers on it. Of course I fudge the numbers on it I drive just as long as I want and then I pull off and sleep. I still mostly drive around weigh stations, but certains ones that generally dont pull you in I drive thru.


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## FarmerJ (Feb 23, 2011)

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=383.3


> (d) *Exception for farmers*, firefighters, emergency response vehicle drivers, and drivers removing snow and ice. A State may, at its discretion, exempt individuals identified in paragraphs (d)(1), (d)(2), and (d)(3) of this section from the requirements of this part. *The use of this waiver is limited to the driver's home State unless there is a reciprocity agreement with adjoining States. *
> (1) Operators of a farm vehicle which is:
> (i) Controlled and operated by a farmer, including operation by employees or family members;
> (ii) Used to transport either agricultural products, farm machinery, farm supplies, or both to or from a farm;
> ...


And since Apiary is considered Agriculture.....

But wait, there comes that pesky 150 Mile rule again, along with home state or adjoining states with reciprocity.


And I would be very leary of telling anyone that "maintenance" records are not required or need to be signed.
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=396.13


> § 396.13Driver inspection.
> Before driving a motor vehicle, the driver shall:
> (a) Be satisfied that the motor vehicle is in safe operating condition;
> (b) Review the last driver vehicle inspection report; and
> (c) Sign the report, only if defects or deficiencies were noted by the driver who prepared the report, to acknowledge that the driver has reviewed it and that there is a certification that the required repairs have been performed. The signature requirement does not apply to listed defects on a towed unit which is no longer part of the vehicle combination.


And before you go yacking any more about whether or not you fill out a comic book, logbook or whatever you want to call the Hours of Service record.

ANYTHING YOU SAY CAN AND *WILL* BE USED AGAINST YOU IN A COURT OF LAW.

So before making that bold statement that you falsify your logbooks, whether they are required or not, given an opportunity of discovery by an attorney, investigator or insurance company, think about what you are putting up on the internet.

And just remember, just because you go back and delete the comment now, because it's been up for more than a couple hours, there is a back up on someones mainframe server somewhere.
http://www.archive.org/web/web.php
http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20090423063013/http://www.beesource.com/


So in the mean time, we return you to your regular scheduled program. Enjoy the veal, I'll be here all week.

opcorn:


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## FarmerJ (Feb 23, 2011)

It's not the mundane daily tickets that would come back to haunt you.

You are in your bee rig hauling down the local state highway, school bus pulls out in front of you and you t-bone it with 40 kids on board. Killing a couple, injurying the rest.


Yeah, it's a long shot, but there is going to be hell to pay and people are going to be looking to fry someone.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

Everyone talks about how we have to teach our KIDS how to behave on the internet, it begins with ourselves.


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## goldenmeadowhoney (Apr 14, 2009)

There have been numerous posts on this topic. You guys will sooner or later get stopped by state dot officers and learn the hard way. Last year i paid over $1000 in fines for driving violations and have just received a letter from fmcsa warning me that I am at risk of "driver fatigue" I have been stopped twice my employee once. Next time we will be put out of service! and will probably pay a fine.
We drive a ford f550 and a dodge 5500 both with trailers and are on farm plates we hold ifta decals and the license.

we have log books and the times we have been stopped the hours where not current and the officer noted them in our warning citation that gets tracked thru our dot #

for the guys in NY that travel down to SC, Mark B as I recall you have a ford 450 (gvw 14,500lbs) you need dot # and when out of state a logbook with hours of duty filled in. 

We carry ifta because the gross combined truck/trailer is over 26,000lbs yes we technically need a cdl license but we have never been asked for it. the ifta is so we do not get a $ 750.00 fine in NC in case we get pulled over.

Andy Reseska


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I think this thread spells out pretty clearly that not only is there a lot of confusion about what is required but very little uniformity in enforcement not just from state to state but even within states depending on the whim of the officer that you might cross paths with. My single biggest gripe is how large motor homes and pickup 5th wheel combos weighing as much or more as the below 26000 rigs we are largely discussing here are for the most part exempted from all these requirements. Are these vehicles really less of a threat to public safety?


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

couln't have stated that any better Jim. got 60-70 year old men driving motor homes that aren't use to driving big vehicles


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I'm reading through this thread and wondering if I'm in danger of getting a fine when I pick stuff up the US. In Manitoba, farm registration frees you of a lot of the requirements other trucks need.

I periodically pick up stuff in the US with a 2500 GMC or F350 using either a trailer with a gvw of 10000 lbs or one of 12000 obs. Am I needing log books, dot, etc for these setups?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Great input Andy. I thought IFTA was only for vehicles over 33K vice 26k. What a PITA dealing with IFTA. Its good to hear folks running a little over 26K without CDL or incident for it. I try to keep loads under 26K as I do not hold a CDL. Not that it bothers me to get it, I just dont have it.


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