# Question About Neonics Ban in Europe



## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

It was not a full ban. Certain neonics and certain applications. I don't have the details at hand. Neonics build up in the soil overtime and have fairly long half-lives so one would expect a lag before levels decline substantially. They also spread through water into non application areas. The ban was not permanent and is currently under review. However, during this period the evidence against neonics and pollinators has gotten only stronger.

Note I should not have used the term half life. What I meant was that they persist and build up in the soil over time but half lives but the half lives may be much shorter than years.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

From what I have read, the ban was on all seed treatments of plants known to attract pollinators. I have been looking for authority on the degradation rates of neonics and have not found anything much. I would like to know about when the abscence of neonics might show up in colony loss figures.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Found this:

BACKGROUND:
The neonicotinoids imidacloprid, imidaclothiz, acetamiprid and thiacloprid consist of similar structural substituents but differ considerably with respect to soil use. Therefore, the effects of soil microbial activity on the degradation and bioefficacy persistence of the four neonicotinoids were evaluated.

RESULTS:
In unsterilised soils, 94.0% of acetamiprid and 98.8% of thiacloprid were degraded within 15 days, while only 22.5% of imidacloprid and 25.1% of imidaclothiz were degraded over a longer period of 25 days. In contrast, in sterilised soils, the degradation rates of acetamiprid and thiacloprid were respectively only 21.4% and 27.6%, whereas the degradation rates of imidaclothiz and imidacloprid were respectively 9.0% and almost 0% within 25 days. The degradation products of imidacloprid and imidaclothiz were identified as olefin, nitroso or guanidine metabolites, the degradation product of thiacloprid was identified as an amide metabolite and no degradation product of acetamiprid was detected. A bioefficacy assay revealed that the bioefficacy and persistence of imidacloprid, imidaclothiz, acetamiprid and thiacloprid against horsebean aphid A. craccivora were related to their degradation rate and the bioefficacy of their degradation products in soil.

CONCLUSION:
Soil microbial activity played a key role in the bioefficacy persistence of neonicotinoid insecticides and therefore significantly affected their technical profile after soil application.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21538797

In this study, degradation seems to be measured in days, rather than years.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

That's a good find psm1212. Thanks.


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## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

psm1212 said:


> Found this:
> 
> B
> In this study, degradation seems to be measured in days, rather than years.


Yes they measured degradation over a period of days. You could measure degradation over any period you choose. But studies of actual fields where treated seeds have been planted have shown a linear build up of neonics over a period of 4 to 5 years. So they are persisting and increasing when applied on an annual basis.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Trying to find stats on colony losses in Europe. I am assuming there is some kind of counterpart to our USDA-NASS reports, but my googling skills have failed me. Anybody know? SiWolkie?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I had thought I saw some where a 12 percent number. This says in 2014-2015 was 17 percent. I know it is not current but thought it might help.
http://pnwhoneybeesurvey.com/wp-con...ses-of-honey-bee-colonies-2014-15-pnwsite.pdf


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)




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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Psm
I read one the other day that is now adding summer deaths with winter deaths but would never be able to find it. I thinks summer deaths are on the increase.

Nice chart.
Cheers
gww


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

There are no reliable statistics on whether bee mortification is caused by necotinoids, or by food shortages and mites (viruses).
Too few beekeepers participate in the monitoring.
The statistics have different statements depending on which institution they were financed.
Since the first discussions, however, much has happened, some neonics have been banned, agrarian techniques have been changed and enforced by law.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

No decrease in bee mortality averaged across all areas has been reported since the ban. 

The way all the activists who wanted the ban, have now gone silent, is telling also.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> No decrease in bee mortality averaged across all areas has been reported since the ban.
> 
> The way all the activists who wanted the ban, have now gone silent, is telling also.


They are not silent, but you are right.
Seems the mite or food shortage problems are much more serious than the neonics, but I don´t want to declare them harmless. We will see.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

They're not harmless by their very nature. They're an insecticide. But they're still a heck of a lot better that what was before them.

However, to this point they are not the pure evil the environmental activists claimed they were as they demanded their world wide ban during the CCD hysteria.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I’m not sure if I remember this correctly or not….but, I believe I read that since neonics have been used in Australia there haven’t been any significant increases in bee losses. As Australia still has no varroa, the loss numbers aren’t clouded by that pest.
Edit: I did a Beesource search and found the thread. It appears that there is no genuine research on the subject.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The evidence out of Australia and the arguments, are mostly anecdotal. Aussie beekeepers I talk to have losses so small it would make the eyes of many USA beekeepers water. This has been a huge problem for the ban neonics people, so they have been able to find ONE Aussie beekeeper who tells a completely different story to everyone else. According to him there are mass bee deaths, and huge general environmental problems including fish deaths, land dwelling creatures brought to the brink of extinction, poisoning of water supplies to people and consequent increase in diseases such as cancer, and all this blamed firmly on the doorstep of neonicitinoids. 

The guy is a persuasive speaker, and expresses outrage that nothing ever gets done about his claims and he believes there is an official cover up at government level, classic conspiracy theory stuff. The green movement has seen to it that this guy has been published all over the world, so that he can be quoted anytime somebody says they don't lose many bees in Australia. The only thing this guy does not give is *actual figures*. He says he cannot because actual figures are not taken, and that, of course, is part of the cover up.

Other Aussie beekeepers I have spoken to tell me bee loss figures are not taken, purely because the small colony losses that happen are so inconsequential that nobody sees any value in spending the time to collate figures on it.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I saw a film documentation once on TV when a child was playing with corn bathed in neonics and almost died just breathing the air directly above.

But that´s no evidence because it could have been an artificial drama fooling people.

It´s hard to get a clear view out of all these studies, claims and opinions. Me, I´m trying to open my mind to all directions, but I´m convinced ecological technology science could find ways to do agriculture without chemicals.


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