# Top Bar Misinformation Propogated by "The Experts"



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

As a top bar beekeeper myself (and one who has worked with langstroths and appreciates them as well), I do find it so tiresome, and discouraging when I read or hear so-called "experts" spreading misinformation about "problems" with keeping bees in top bar hives.

Quite frankly, I'm sick of it.

I recently received this article from my provincial Bee Inspector. It was written by the Bee Inspector from another Canadian province, and was passed on via email through provincial bee association mailing lists, so that beekeepers all across Canada could read it. So it comes from a respected "expert" beekeeper. I will not enter their name here, as I do not wish to single them out, but rather to point out a continuing problem facing the top bar hive, and a common deterrent to potential new tbh keepers.

In an effort to further the health of bees and of beekeeping as a whole, we need people to be trying different methods and giving these methods solid, open-minded focus and observation over appropriate time periods, and in a wide variety of situations, if we are to really know what works and what does not.

And too many people seem too interested in discounting things without much information at all. Worse - they tend to spread misinformation far and wide, and set the whole process back.

Here is the content of the article and my response:

••••••••••••
*Top Bar Hives*

In recent times, there appears to be a sudden interest in Top Bar Hives (TBH), also called Kenyan Top Bar Hives (~KTBs). Perhaps the reference to Kenya or its simple design attracts beekeepers, but before committing your bees to a TBH, you may want to have a closer look.

The traditional top bar hive (woven, and ‘skep’-like) of East Africa is ancient, but the modern version made of wooden parts and metal lid was in large part developed by researchers at the University of Guelph in the 1970s. The modern TBH is essentially a long box with slanted sides. Underneath the cover lid are wooden bars that abut and rest on the top of the slanted sides. At the underside of each bar is a groove or ridge provided with a strip of wax foundation or a coating of wax respectively, which will stimulate the bees to build their natural wax comb onto. The side
panels of the hive body are at such angle that the bees will not attach the comb but leave a space. As a result, each top bar with the natural comb shaped as a semi-circle can be carefully lifted and examined.

Beekeepers have asked whether the TBH is legal. The TBH satisfies the requirements of the legislation which demands that each comb, whether attached to a top bar or inside a frame, must be individually removable for the purpose of disease inspection. In fact, this legislated requirement is applicable across Canada and most European countries. So, there is no legal problem of a beekeeper keeping bees in a TBH.

However, from a management perspective, this particular hive design has some limitations that should be considered:

•The TBH is only suitable in warm climates (southern US, sub- and tropics). In colder climates ..., the bees have great difficulty in regulating and maintaining temperature because, the hive is horizontal which prevents heat to be concentrated in the top where the bees can cluster, as it does in a conventional hive, and top bars and combs run across and bees don’t migrate easily between comb spaces. To do so, they must first go to the lower sides or the bottom of the comb (where it is cold) before going to the next space. As a result, the bees have greater difficulty of maintaining winter cluster.

oThe difficulty of migration within the hive increases the danger of bees not being able to access winter stores located farther back into the hive body.

•During spring, the aim of beekeeping management is to stimulate brood development and colony expansion. The success of spring brood development is often jeopardized by cold spells, leading to chilled brood. A colony in a TBH hive faces a far greater risk of chilled brood during periods of inclement weather.

•The process of honey storage and harvesting is messy, destructive and wasteful. A colony housed in a TBH typically only occupies the first part of the hive while the top bars in the back of the hive are either not drawn out or unoccupied. The result is that bees store most of their honey in the top parts of the combs with pollen and brood underneath. While a queen excluder board has been developed for use in TBH, it often ends up being a barrier that bees don’t readily cross. In other words, the front part of the hive is often crowded while the back portion is ignored or under-utilised. In the spring, this often leads to swarming.

• Since the combs are merely suspended from the top bar without further support, a conventional rotational extractor can’t be used for honey harvesting. It means that the comb, often with bee brood, must be cut from the top bar.

Given these disadvantages, I advise against the use of TBHs under our climatic conditions. I would like to make the analogy that if it takes 100 units of effort to successfully manage a colony in a conventional standard hive, why would one decide to use the TBH design which will take at least 150 units of effort, not to mention a higher winter mortality rate?

•••••••••

And my response, which I sent soon after reading to both the author and to my provincial apiarist:

Hello (...)

I was given your recent article on top bar hives, (as were most beekeepers in Nova Scotia) by (my provincial apiarist) this evening via email. 

I'm in my second winter with top bar hives here in Nova Scotia and the bees have done very well in them. My hives have built up very well in the spring; I have seen no signs of chilled brood (even through this last awful spring) and don't see why you'd suggest that these hives are any more prone to chilled brood than a langstroth. My hives (which are over 4' long) are filled end-to-end with comb, with brood concentrated near the entrance at one end, and honey stored in the rear half. Harvest is a simple task of cutting off comb, crushing and straining.

I have also been in contact with many other beekeepers throughout North America, the United States and Europe who have had excellent success with bees in top bar hives for years; even in areas with severe winters. Some of those successful top bar beekeepers are located in Ontario and BC. That said, there is no doubt that the number of top bar hive beekeepers in Canada is very low, and in my opinion it is far too early, and there are far too few beekeepers with any experience using top bar hives in earnest for us to make any blanket statements regarding their effectiveness or lack thereof in Canada - particularly given the Country's vast size and range of winter severity.

So I was wondering, what experience and data are you're basing your advice to beekeepers in Canada to avoid using top bar hives? I would very much like to have a look at your statistical data; the number of hives monitored, the dimension of each hive monitored (as designs vary greatly), the level of experience of each beekeeper participating in the studies (as most tend to be kept by beginners, making the drawing of any conclusions more difficult). I'm also interested in the number of seasons that the top bar hives were kept and how bees in langstroth hives in the same geographical areas fared during the same time periods - that kind of thing. In short, just a good, clear way for me (and others) to reach the same conclusion that you have.

I thank you for your time,

Adam Foster Collins

Halifax, Nova Scotia

•••••••••••


It's been weeks now, and I've never heard a word back on the issue from either the author, or my provincial bee inspector.

Adam


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

After a reading a thoughtful private message from another member, I want to add a bit to this.

A lot of misinformation is coming from "experts" which are proponents of the top bar hive as well. There are too many "experts" promoting top bar hives as being "more natural", and "better for the bees", etc, who actually have very little experience as beekeepers. There is a tremendous amount of misinformation coming from both sides, For tbh, and against.

Management is much more important than the type of hive. Misinformation, or uneducated opinions which are given as fact are harmful to the whole of beekeeping - no matter what box they're promoting.

Adam


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm certainly not an expert - more like TB curious (several Langs - 1 TBH) but I agree totally. 

If someone wants to get into bee keeping, but paying several hundred dollars for enough Langstroth equipment to set up a couple of hives is a barrier, then TBHs are a completely viable alternative. A new bee keeper in our association who was out of work last spring built top bar hives, and got on the swarm list and is now (yes still, even now) a bee keeper with hardly any cash outlay. Can anyone advise against that? I think it rocks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The funny thing about detractors of most any method is that they are almost always people who have never tried that method and the more they repeat the myths the more ingrained the ideas become until people think they are truths. The other thing you see a lot, and I think we are all guilty of to some degree, is if things fail we look for a reason and often the reason we pick is not the actual cause of the failure. It's just an obvious difference that we can use for blame without actually figuring out the cause of the problem.


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## Daddy'sBees (Jul 1, 2010)

Way to go Adam!!! I have two other points. 1) TBHs are a great way to work a hive of hot bees. The bees only exposure to the beek is the gap from one bar that is removed one at a time. 2) TBHs don't travel well. say for pollination contracts.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

As a long time langstroth beekeeper I can unequivocally state that the problem with top bar hives as I see it is that ummmmmmm I don't have any. Now please stop muddying the waters with all these facts and keep bees the way you are supposed to. Also remember: flowers are red, green leaves are green............


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## SteveBee (Jul 15, 2010)

We lost several hives at one of our locations and none at the other. At my place, I lost three TBHs and one Lang. I guess I could say that since I lost three TBHs and only one Lang, then the TBHs are definitely weaker. But, what killed the Lang? And why is another TBH at the same site booming with bees? I think the answer is that we suffered high losses at one location. Some of the bees just couldn't handle it, even though it has been mild. But, I have confidence that our survivors, no matter what type of hive they're in, will be good to build from.

I got an email from a guy in Nashville who is starting beekeeping this Spring with a couple of TBHs. He told me that several people have already told him that he is wasting his time with this type hive. I told him to ask the next TBH naysayer if they'd ever even seen a TBH. I bet they turn and walk away.

I started with top bar hives accidentally. I knew absolutely nothing about bees and found a guy online who sold "organic" hives. I order one, and it was a TBH. Since I didn't know anything about Langs, it didn't seem different to me. Since then, I've built about ten more for myself, family and friends, and have learned a ton by going thru the combs one by one. I think this has given me a firm foundation (or should I say foundationless?) to build our operation on, no matter what type hives we use.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Unfortunately there's a lot of deliberate misinformation about each by the other, but the TBH militants and the Lang militants seem to have the biggest problem with each other . It's a pity, the bees have enough challenges without beeks actively alienating each other and offering (at times) deliberate misinformation especially to new beekeepers.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

I know of the author and that he does have experience with KTBH's although not here in North America. I also have no doubt that the article is in reference to this knowledge gained many years ago. I believe the point of the article was for consideration only with no disrespect intended.


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## Heartspark (Mar 18, 2011)

Someone should just make a Lang with a TBH mounted on top of it. Tata bee hotel.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Delta Bay said:


> I know of the author and that he does have experience with KTBH's although not here in North America. I also have no doubt that the article is in reference to this knowledge gained many years ago. I believe the point of the article was for consideration only with no disrespect intended.


I'm quite sure that you're right. I don't think the author meant disrespect, and I'm sure they meant well. But the fact is that there just isn't that much data available to make blanket statements for Canadian beekeepers. That's just too many people in too many climatic regions. Given the authors' positon, and the wording of the article -- it's just opinion portrayed as fact, and that amounts to misinformation.

I know people who know the author, and it's not my intention to attack an individual character - just to question the spread of misinformation.

Adam


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

If I get time, I'm building a top bar this spring. If I don't get time, I'm converting an old Lang super into a short top bar just to try this out. But I probably won't do it "right". I foresee plain old 1x2 strips running across, til I get a table saw I'm just not up to ripping the wood down. If it will hold bees, legal, healthy and hygenically "correct", I will put bees in it.

I really like BEES.

Gypsi
(who misses that hum something terrible.)
'


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> I know people who know the author, and it's not my intention to attack an individual character - just to question the spread of misinformation.


I'm sure if he thought it was misinformation he would not have wrote the article the way it was. All I can say is we know what we know and nobody likes to be wrong.

The bigger issue in my mind is why so many see the TBH as something so different than what it is. It's easy enough to see that it will work as well in any place you can winter single deeps. There are enough operations across the Prairie Provinces that do just that. It's up to the individual to figure out how to accomplish this with their specific hive and location.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Delta Bay said:


> It's easy enough to see that it will work as well in any place you can winter single deeps.


That is a most excellent point. If the TBH is appropriately designed and managed it should be very comparable to a single deep.


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## edward (Nov 7, 2010)

Heartspark said:


> Someone should just make a Lang with a TBH mounted on top of it. Tata bee hotel.


Why not the other way around , A tbh with a lang on top as a honey box , bees can be bees down in the TBH and the beekeeper can harvest honey in a modern extractable frame/box on top !

mvh edward


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

edward said:


> Why not the other way around , A tbh with a lang on top as a honey box , bees can be bees down in the TBH and the beekeeper can harvest honey in a modern extractable frame/box on top !
> 
> mvh edward


Might do that!


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Supering a tbh is a pain. You have to modify the top bars to let bees pass through them and into the super. Then you have to come up with a special cover to deal with the integration of the two... Pretty soon, you're getting complicated.

...if you want to super and extract, go with Langs. Not that I'm opposed to invention, it's a lot of fun. It's just that the different designs offer different benefits. Once you decide what you want, the options are there. 

Adam


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

The more bantering about top bars the better. Given the fact that bees have effectively lived in them for all but the last two hundred years, any "poo-pooing" appears to me somewhat uninformed.

For the small scale keeper, I think they're awesome. For thirty bucks in lumber and near the same time it takes to assemble a traditional lang hive, you're ahead by $200. Add crush and strain to your harvest methods as described by Mike Bush and you're good to go.

I tried with scrap wood a couple years ago with no luck. Depending on how the girls build up, I may give it another go this year, but this time match "frame" size so I can transfer from my langs and use standard supers and excluders.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> The other thing you see a lot, and I think we are all guilty of to some degree, is if things fail we look for a reason and often the reason we pick is not the actual cause of the failure.


A lot of truth in that statement.


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