# Plywood Supers



## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Sunofabee said:


> Does anybody have any thoughts or opinions on using 3/4" exterior grade plywood to construct hive bodies and supers?


Heavy


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## Box (Jul 30, 2010)

I use plywood for my nucs ,interior plywood just varnished on the outside, and they seem to hold up quite nice ,plus its cheep (from a dumpster) so ill just make new ones when they rot, and it is often the bottom that do that ,so i just replace that and put on my happy face


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

I have buid some nucs or queen nursery out of free plywood and they do OK.
Painted and well covered should last few years.
They hold 4 nucs of 4 frame each.


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## LenInNorCal (Feb 28, 2009)

I wouldn't use ply due to the way it'made in China. They don't follow our standards and overdue the toxic chemicals. Those Katrina trailers the gov't purchased is proof of that. Stick to real wood.


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## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

As one who has worked in plywood mills I would stay away from using it because of the chemicals used in the glue. nope no way and way to heavy.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

" As one who has worked in plywood mills I would stay away from using it because of the chemicals used in the glue. nope no way and way to heavy. "
There are often concerns expressed about the use of SOME plywood for human habitation due to off-gasing ( formaldehyde in glue) and the same may apply for bees. I stick to real wood.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I had no idea plywood was so bad for you. Good information to know. I was planning on making a few migratory tops out of the stuff. Guess it'll end up being made out of pine furring strips instead. Next cheapest thing.


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## Merlyn Votaw (Jun 23, 2008)

from what I understand plywood won't do as much damage as treated plywood.I don't think interior plywood would hurt but won't take the weather


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

I feed my hives with inverted pails on the inner cover. I dont waste my deeps or mediums covering them when i can use those in more hives. I cover my feeders with ply boxes. Lt ply painted with cheap paint.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

I have been using plywood supers for nine years, some in continuous use and still going strong. A deep super weighs three pound more than pine. But I can make six deeps and three mediums form a 4X8 sheet of plywood. Current cost at lowes $21. Use a good primer and a coat of quality exterior latex. As far as gassing a bee hive is well ventilated and hasn’t posed a problem.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Isn't the concern about plywood outgassing and harming our bees just a wee bit overboard? The reality is that this stuff is everywhere. Try to buy a home that's not full of plywood and probably worse particle board. I'd say use the ply if you like and if you're really concerned let it set out in the sun a few weeks prior to service.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"Isn't the concern about plywood outgassing and harming our bees just a wee bit overboard?"
Maybe. In my case it is simply a pesonal choice. I do live in an earth and timber house. I would like to offer my bees the real thing. The cost difference matters little with the number of hives I have .


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

AstroBee said:


> Isn't the concern about plywood outgassing and harming our bees just a wee bit overboard? The reality is that this stuff is everywhere. Try to buy a home that's not full of plywood and probably worse particle board. I'd say use the ply if you like and if you're really concerned let it set out in the sun a few weeks prior to service.


No! It's not a wee bit overboard. It's a whole bunch overboard! By the time you buy it, it has probably been a long time since manufacture. It's wood guys, with exterior, waterproof glue holding the plies together. I'd worry more about the plastic feeders you all use. Uh Oh! Opened a new can of worms to worry about. Let's see now; we have: Varroa, SHB, AHB, AFB, EFB, plywood, plastics, brown sugar, HFCS, old honey, mold in sugar water, mold in hives, wax moths, bum queens, drone cells, ants, birds, bee eating bugs, crystallized honey, no honey, too much honey, paint, burr comb......................:ws


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

I agree that using plywood is not the end of the world ( and there are low VO ply's) 

If you are interested read more here:
http://annhyg.oxfordjournals.org/content/30/1/19.abstract

http://greenhomeguide.com/askapro/q...ring-and-roofing-are-safer-products-available


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

I have deeps and supers that I built out of plywood seven years ago that are still going strong. Are they heavier than regular wood? Yes. Are they too heavy to use in place of regular wood? No.

I use the deeps for brood chambers and the supers for honey. I haven't noticed any problems with the brood that I would suspect came from the out gassing of the plywood and once the supers are full of honey the weight difference between regular wood supers and the plywood supers is hardly noticeable.

After seven years of use, the plywood boxes don't appear to be in any worse shape then the regular wood boxes of the same age. When I need to replace any boxes in the future or decide to expand my number of hives, I expect I'll be building some more plywood boxes.


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

I personnaly would use plywood, however only well aged plywood. In the making of plywood there are a lot of chemicals, such as formaldyhide that is a lung nose and thoat cancer agent. It takes years for the off-gasing of these such products to be compete to the point of no detection. Now usually plywood this old unless kept housed in dry area is usually not in a good shape. Even treated lumber used to build hive bodies causes issues. If you look at the making of plywood and treated wood, a lot of the chemicals used in the preserv process also mimics the 17 chemicals in cigs that you see on the tv commercials all the time. Truely not organic if used, however usable.

I personnaly built a 80 gallon parafin tank for dipping. You dip the parts in the wax, 176 degrees F for about 20 minutes for a deep. As soon as you take it out you can paint these. Old equipment can be dipped with a 3% bleach solution in the wax and it is well documented no spread of AFB or UFB in over 30 year study. It also seals and prolongs the life of the hive part. This is dipping whole deeps, assembled. Not to mention bees love it.

I used an old propane gas grill with a fire guard as the heating agent with a sheetmetal box that has been soldered with non lead to seal it. With the low temp a standard tank from your local store lasts me a while.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

What is UFB? Have we got a new disease or pest? :s:s


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

I think he means European foul brood. BTW Fish sticks I liked your post further above. I am paranoid some times with syrup, but plywood??? To be honest, I am more conserned about all those OSB shavings I breathed in building my bee room. Personally, I feel that we have a lot more to worry about than plywood glue. I would not use treated though. I use exterior non treated

Mike


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Treated plywood may, or may not be something you need to worry about. Then again . . . who knows.

It's something I can easily avoid, and I can afford the alternative. I've got too many things I have to worry about now, rather than adding on another POSSIBLE (although however faint) problem.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I find some real disconnects here on beesource lately, seems to be more prevalent within the last year or so. Maybe I'm just getting old and grouchy. There are folks praising the "plywood nucs" thread (myself included) and here some are warning against its usage. Further, some have no problems dumping a whole host of essential oils, acids, and other "stuff" into their colonies, then we have other posts were someone's concerned about outgassing of plastic foundations..... I guess there's strength in diversity of opinion, but I get the overwhelming sense that there are bigger issues to worry about and I think we'd benefit our bees more if we focused on the core issues impacting the health and management of our colonies.


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## PiperGavin (Nov 1, 2010)

I found this information really helpful. I was close to using the plywood but then my neighbor said he wouldn't advise it. He mentioned particle board but I wasn't sure if it's a good idea. This forum board affirmed it's advantages.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Although no one here has demonstrated that there is _any_ actual danger to honeybees living in plywood hives, I'll offer this tidbit: 

Exterior-grade plywood uses adhesives containing phenyl formaldehyde that have a much lower rate of outgassing than interior grades made with urea formaldehyde adhesives.

Again, I'd be interested in seeing _any _factual information concerning harmful effects in using any grade of plywood in building bee equipment. 

Wayne


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

If it is any consolation, the folks at USDA use plywood for just about anything, i did not see any plywood boxes when i was down there.

mike


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## LenInNorCal (Feb 28, 2009)

I would also be curious to know WHO would sponsor such research. It would not be a plywood company as it's not in their best interest. It could not be a hobbyiest due to the excessive costs. Everybody else is broke! and to what end? As hygiene is most important to the the bees, I too would practice safe beekeeping and avoid all such potential possibilities. 
And of course those that disagree could ill afford to "prove" their position as well.....ask two beeks one question and get five answers, anytime, day or night!




waynesgarden said:


> Although no one here has demonstrated that there is _any_ actual danger to honeybees living in plywood hives, I'll offer this tidbit:
> 
> Exterior-grade plywood uses adhesives containing phenyl formaldehyde that have a much lower rate of outgassing than interior grades made with urea formaldehyde adhesives.
> 
> ...


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## lenny bee (Oct 29, 2010)

When they put tree sap between the layers of plywood , I might concider this. Being in flooring ,I recall when lots of people were getting sick shortly after haveing carpet installed. They realized it was the chem. used to bond the pad together. Big reason carpet is used a lot less in homes. The same chems.is still used in ply. Plus used out side even with paint, warping would be an issue with layered wood..


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

LenInNorCal said:


> ...WHO would sponsor such research. It would not be a plywood company as it's not in their best interest. It could not be a hobbyiest due to the excessive costs.


I think enough anecdotal evidence is in to satisfy me. Generations of bees have lived their natural life spans in my plywood nucs without any apparent ill-effects. Likewise, no one I know has seen any ill effects from hiving nucs or colonies in plywood and I do not remember ever reading of a single instance of resulting harm.

So, exactly what are the ill-effects that those concerned imagine, anyway? Do you imagine the bees are going to contract some sort of lung cancer during their short, few weeks on this planet? Perhaps they are at risk of impaling themselves on the large splinters that plywood is prone to have?

How much of this supposedly harmful outgassing is going to occur through the face grain of plywood that the bees are exposed to as opposed to the edges which generally do not face the interior of the (well ventilated) space occupied by these short-lived bees?

I think concern about toxins that no one seems able to establish is a real problem is as far down my list of things to worry about as it can go. In fact, I have a trailer-load of scrap plywood that I will be ripping down this weekend to make nuc/swarm trap boxes for next year. Lot's of plywood. 

Wayne


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## Tubee (Oct 19, 2010)

I was in the "chemical" industry for a decade and I would hate to know what my liver has been through. I do know that humans tolerate bad chemistry or polutants better than do insects or bugs. Now, after years of running a wood shop, I find that my chemistry knowledge is vitally important. All this said, I am very very concerned with the chemicals used out of the USA in wood products fabrication. Both the glues and the processes used in making plywood and other such composites are without regard to how residuals or residues affect our health. You may recall the sheet rock recently shipped here from China... it was bad stuff and had to be removed from housing. Other countries such as Russia have no constraints on harmful chemicals. My bottom line is that the loss of a hive due to elements that come out of plywood sitting out in the sun just isn't worth the cost savings. Also, you probably wouldn't be able to prove what killed your bees.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

I, for one, am going "Green." I'm painting all my plywood equipment a nice shade of green with some free paint I just obtained. Lids, bottom boards, pallets, nuc boxes, everything! The rest of you greenies go ahead and regress to bee gums. Much safer than man-manipulated natural products. BTW, I hear you can get lubricating oil on the lumber they saw up for beehives; OMG! And all of it has those manufacturer ID ink stamps, which I'm sure contains some form of harmful chemicals.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Tubee said:


> I was in the "chemical" industry for a decade ..... My bottom line is that the loss of a hive due to elements that come out of plywood sitting out in the sun just isn't worth the cost savings.


Again I ask, have you lost a hive in a plywood box during all your time as a beekeeper? Do you know anyone who has? Have you observed unexplained declines in colonies hived in plywood with no correlation to loss of control hives housed in conventional hives? Or is this just more supposition? Are facts iimportant in this discussion? 

How do you explain the countless generations of honeybees raised in plywood boxes by many beekeepers with no noticible effects? Would not evidence of harm have become apparent rather quickly, given the short lifespan of the average bee? Several generations of bees are easaily observed in a single season. After all, one doe not have to wait years for toxins to build up in the liver. (Bees have no liver.)

Please, someone tell me exactly how harmful are the minute outgassings from plywood into a well-ventilated space occupied by very short-lived insects with a very different physiology than humans. 

Well, I'm finished asking these questions since it's obvous that no one is going to support their fears with facts or any reasonable hypothises or any actual experience other than having worked in the "chemical" business or in the carpet trade or in a mill. Tell me you worked in these trade doing biological research on the molecular level and that you have actual information to present and I'll reconsider using plywood in the dozens of nucs I am making for next year. Unfounded fears won't convince me.

Wayne


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I made my La Gargantua hives out of ply wood in 2007. Both have died out once since then but it did not seem in relationship to the plywood but just part of the immense die out I have had occurring over the last few years in all of my hives. On 4/17 a gigantic bait hive moved into the large cell bait hive and proceed to produce a 150 pound crop. Clearly the bees were not able to recognize any toxic qualities of the plywood if they exist. 
Click pic to view video of this swarm moving in.


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## LenInNorCal (Feb 28, 2009)

waynesgarden said:


> Again I ask, have you lost a hive in a plywood box during all your time as a beekeeper? Do you know anyone who has? Have you observed unexplained declines in colonies hived in plywood with no correlation to loss of control hives housed in conventional hives? Or is this just more supposition? Are facts iimportant in this discussion?


You make an excellent point. As with you, I doubt if anyone can give proof positive that hive loss was due what others believe to be harmful to bees. Of course, as previously stated, it is not in any monied interest to prove such, now is it? I mean the plywood association wouldn't set out to do so, and I would suspect they would counter anyone that attempt to do such. Much like cigarettes did not cause cancer for all those years and those companies had plenty of proof that it was the case that no cancer could be directly linked to esophageal, throat, lung, pharynx, or any of the complications of that smoke. Those were FACTS those companies had and all those old stupid wives tales were simply silly, right?



waunesgarden said:


> How do you explain the countless generations of honeybees raised in plywood boxes by many beekeepers with no noticible effects? Would not evidence of harm have become apparent rather quickly, given the short lifespan of the average bee? Several generations of bees are easaily observed in a single season. After all, one doe not have to wait years for toxins to build up in the liver. (Bees have no liver.)


It is the possibility that "noticeable effects" are not noticed within a generation, no? Or even several scores of generations, as the chemicals used in manufacturing and the enviornment change as well. Some regulatory agency is always after manufacturers due to short term studies so youj may be right in that what has been used for five years and is no longer used may not show immediately. Of course the word "cumulative" comes to mind, as do "longtitudal studies" but you wish to see effects right now, you old Doubting Thomas, you. 
Of course, when you come down to it, it's all a statistical numbers game. It may not effect this queen or that, or it may not show up for a while but sooner or later some sport will adjust to the outgas and will be nudged to change. Although I am probably wrong in that they've not changed much in 65 million years, so tomorrow or next summer may be to soon, but sooner or later mutation does occurs, and while most are unsuccessfull, some will take, and you will get your wish.



waunesgarden said:


> Please, someone tell me exactly how harmful are the minute outgassings from plywood into a well-ventilated space occupied by very short-lived insects with a very different physiology than humans.
> Well, I'm finished asking these questions since it's obvous that no one is going to support their fears with facts or any reasonable hypothises or any actual experience other than having worked in the "chemical" business or in the carpet trade or in a mill. Tell me you worked in these trade doing biological research on the molecular level and that you have actual information to present and I'll reconsider using plywood in the dozens of nucs I am making for next year. Unfounded fears won't convince me.
> Wayne


Wayne, bud, you probably know if anyone came up with something it could easily be called fake, since anecdotal cases are never 'facts' so quit blowing smoke. As far as a reasonable person could discern, the plywood association aint going come out and say their stuff is poisonious. So AFAIK, we simply can't get there from here. You go on and build all you can bee and none will worry a lick about your honey. As for me and mine, good old Home Depot pine will do me right.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

"but sooner or later some sport will adjust to the outgas and will be nudged to change."

You state this as fact but I can't help but assume that you have no knowledge and are simply making this up as you go along or would have provided actual facts, documentation or statistics if there was any basis to your claims.

For what it is worth, my father, who was a heavy smoker, died from lung cancer during the days when tobacco companies hired doctors to appear in ads and claim cigarettes were safe. We saw heavy smokers getting sick and dying in our homes pretty regularly so we were doubtful when the companies strongly denied the scientific research linking smoking to lung cancer. So I don't think I'm the naive idiot that you seem to believe I am.

Being non-scientists, we based our silly assumptions on our observations, on what we observed to be possible causes of the effects we were seeing. Actual effects, effects that actually happened, that we could document: dead fathers, husbands, etc. 

You haven't showed us a single dead bee. In this case, you are citing a cause for effects that, as far as you can show, have never happened, that you have no knowledge ever will happen. Effects that you only imagine, with no basis in fact, may happen in how many years? Decades? Centuries? Ever?

Poor for even pseudo-science. Worthless.

Wayne


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

By the way, just one more thing for you to worry (imagine) about:

Know that smell of fresh pine? You know that wonderful Christmas tree smell? 
Outgassing of chemicals from the wood. Resins, terpenes, etc. What is that going to be doing to your bees decades or centuries down the road?

Just wondering...not that I have any knowledge that it will be a problem. Just sayin... 

Wayne


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

plywood is good


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## LenInNorCal (Feb 28, 2009)

Well Wayne, you bested me. I've no evidence that you ask for, but then again we can't observe on the chemical level, or at least none that I know can so we have to go with what biochem researches tell us. And they get their money from???? Besides Obama's folks, which is our money anyway, but also from those that wish to promulgate how good their products are. No? 
As for me making it up as I go along, you are right on the money again! But when I think about it, my statement you catch me on "sooner or later some sport will change" is simply based on statistics, math, and evolution. Now if you don't go with that I can understand but until something better comes those are fair yardsticks on which to measure. You mention the millions of bees born in a year, sooner or later there will be a mutation and reaction to what could be doing 'harm' such that stressors will be overcome and breeding will continue.
Plain but extrapolated fact. Or all bees will die, and then I will be dead wrong as well.
Sorry about your Dad, as my Grandfater also died of lung cancer, as will I after 30 years of smoking, though I quite almost the same amount of time back.
As for science, pseudo science, etc. we only observe behavior and what out gasses of pines or plywood cause cannot be "seen" but can be measured with very fine instruments, none of which are available to you or me. Time will tell. Consider it in light of the mercury in fish, or other cause and effect problems. We can observe the effect and ascribe it to a singular cause, or even a constellation of causes, is what so many arguments are about.
For me and mine, I just can't imagine making a hive out of something that makes mobile homes, as in the Katrina houses the gov't purchased, to be unlivable for humans. I notice Mann Lake, Dadant and others don't use ply in their woodenware, so why should I?


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## S&H (Feb 25, 2010)

Mann Lake has plywood bottom boards. They're great, IMO.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

After reading all the debate if plywood is killing my bees or not?  Now I can’t sleep wondering, if I am endangering my bees with the glue I use to assemble my frames with. Or if I got them high enough off the ground for the wicked Michigan winters? Or if I have sanitized my hive tool enough and won’t transfer some new disease that we haven’t discovered yet. And how do we know pine sap won’t make them sick. I never seen a hive in a pine tree, maple or oak or other hardwood. Not to mention all the buildings they have taken up residence.


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## caribou0_0 (Aug 21, 2010)

I have a friend who built 80 plywood hives in 1964,painted them and still using them. I have never heard of anyone being run out of a house because of plywood. Sheetrock yes, plywood no. I make hives and nucs from plywood, the girls don't mind at all.


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## Zier64 (Dec 29, 2010)

Most ply's these days use carb compliant and newer environmentally better things anyhow too. Maybe not in the USA everywhere lol but in some places and canada do..


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