# Varroa Tolerant Queen Breeders for 2015



## Clayton Huestis

Can we get an updated list for varroa tolerant queen breeders and/ or TF breeders? Thank you.


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## Barry

I have frowned on this as there is no standard for what TF bees are. I think this should be up to each person to seek and find what suits them. Kind of like asking who sells organic honey.


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## RayMarler

You can try some of the breeders on this link...
http://vpqueenbees.com/purchase/production-queens
Like Barry said, there is no real solid standard, but that site is pretty decent and well known.


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## Clayton Huestis

I agreed Barry. Simply was looking for a list maybe some place I'm not aware of. Just want raw information. Been TF for many years. I will go threw any info presented carefully to what suits my needs as everyone should.


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## RayMarler

Then why look outside your beeyard? Why not raise queens of your own for increase?


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## Fusion_power

Because the genetics of small numbers of treatment free bees is limited. Outcrossing is eventually necessary to maintain a breeding line.


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## beepro

While the idea of crossbreeding is good, you still need
to find a compatible strain to do that. So where to find this
type of bees? It seems like that the few tf beekeepers are holding their
genetics quite attached for some reason. Good luck to find some that will do it.


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## Clayton Huestis

> Then why look outside your beeyard? Why not raise queens of your own for increase?


Ray of course I raise my own queens. I will continue to do so.


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## clyderoad

Fusion_power said:


> Because the genetics of small numbers of treatment free bees is limited. Outcrossing is eventually necessary to maintain a breeding line.


what evidence is seen in the bee yard that leads one to conclude that the line is in need of bringing in new bees?


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## GBF

clyderoad said:


> what evidence is seen in the bee yard that leads one to conclude that the line is in need of bringing in new bees?


When you've seen it is too late. You better to know your stock and to do all thing before you see some problems. It is all about to note peds to choose mothers and fathers and to avoid inbreeding..


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## clyderoad

GBF said:


> When you've seen it is too late. You better to know your stock and to do all thing before you see some problems. It is all about to note peds to choose mothers and fathers and to avoid inbreeding..


what problems do you see? how can one be certain the cause is genetic and not environmental?
how does one know that inbreeding is becoming a problem? is it just a guess?


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## Michael Palmer

clyderoad said:


> is it just a guess?


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## clyderoad

the photo is showing me evidence of inbreeding?
could you explain.
what I see: assuming the frame was laid up I see no evidence of disease but half the larvae did not make
it to pupae. Looks like they were removed. Queen still laying as seen by uncapped larvae. 
possible cause: A mating with closely related drone(s)?
If so could that indicate a single bad mating and not inbreeding of the whole apiary?


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## Fusion_power

A shot brood pattern such as that has two possible meanings the most common of which is that the queen was intentionally mated with a drone(s) that share one of the two sex alleles the queen carries. When the eggs hatch, the workers remove all diploid drones leaving the shot brood appearance. The only other time I've seen this pattern was in a colony with heavy chalkbrood where the workers were removing the dead larvae leaving a shot brood pattern. With chalk, you can almost always find mummies in a few of the cells. This suggests the problem is genetic for the pic shown. I saw a similar pattern several years ago where a queen had been exposed to very cold weather in a too small cluster. She was laying a very large percentage of non-viable eggs.


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## RayMarler

I get shot brood with varroa too, but it also has holes in cappings which I don't see here in the pic


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## Michael Palmer

I posted photo as a reference to shot gun brood pattern, which can be an indication of inbreeding...single allele as FP said.

And yes, it could be Chalkbrood or Varroa, but there are no visible mummies or pin holes in the brood caps, and the sealed brood looks to be healthy. So, most likely this pattern is from single allele.

Is it just a guess? An educated guess. Whatever, I would re-queen this colony.


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## clyderoad

Thanks. I would requeen too.
As far as showing the need to out cross because the whole line of bees
has been compromised I'm not so sure unless the entire yard is deteriorating like that. That's
never happened to me.
There is a lot of talk about "bringing in new genetics" and I wonder how necessary it really is
in most cases.
I buy some queens every year because that's what I was taught to do and continue to do but
I doubt I have ever had the real need to do so to combat inbreeding. Maybe I've been
wasting my money and could get away with buying new queens far less frequently, like once
every 7 or 8 years for instance.


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## jim lyon

clyderoad said:


> Thanks. I would requeen too.
> As far as showing the need to out cross because the whole line of bees
> has been compromised I'm not so sure unless the entire yard is deteriorating like that. That's
> never happened to me.
> There is a lot of talk about "bringing in new genetics" and I wonder how necessary it really is
> in most cases.


I kind of think the threat is probably exaggerated given the polygamous nature of virgins unless, perhaps, you are using the same breeder on consecutive years. We occasionally see a small hive with a "shotgun" pattern spinning its wheels all summer but it's never been enough to concern me.


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## jimsteelejr

Unless you live in an area with no other beekeepers and no feral bees you probably are out crossing most of the time. Drone aggregation areas bring in drones from a wide swath. Even if you flood an area with your own drones the odds are that you are going to get some foreign drones in the mix. If you have a strong line going why dilute it?


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