# Legal threat to move bees out of town



## JL_COG (Oct 26, 2009)

"The City has received several complaints that the bees you are keeping within the city limits of 'Town, State', are leaving your property and swarming the Senior Citizens housing area, as well as other areas within the city limits. As several of your neighbors and occupants of senior citizen housing are allergic to bee stings, your keeping of these bees has caused a great deal of alarm and the resulting complaints.

Under these circumstances, this letter is to inform you that you must immediately remove your bees from within the city limits of 'City, State', as well as to remind you that you may be held legally liable for any and all damages and harm the bees may cause.

Sincerely,
'City Attorney' "

I dunno what section this belongs in but the above is a quote of a letter that came today.
Although it seems unprofessionally written to me it would seem prudent not to ignore it. Question is, how do i go about responding with the most chance of success in keeping our bees? Does anyone have any ideas? Thank-you, JL.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Swarming is not the correct term and very unprofessional or ignorant of a lawyer. These never go well you could respond with an offer to present your case before the city council and courts. They know they cannot prove they are your bees. It is doubtfull they can prove there are no wild bees in the area. Few people know the difference between bees and other insects anyway. I do not want to get your hopes too high because beekeepers usually lose to fear.


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## beekeeper1756 (Mar 20, 2010)

JL Cog.

I wish you the best. Present your passionate plea before the city council and see what happens. Please let us know how it goes.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I would ask to have a meeting with whom ever wrote the letter to you and whom ever is making the complaint at the site of the "swarming" bees.

It may be that the bees are yellow jackets, hornets, wasps, even sweat bees.................who knows!!

How many hives do you have and how big of a place are you keeping them in?

How close are you to these places?

I would also ask for specific laws that are on the books for this particular town or city. 

Are your hives in plan view from the street? If so just move your active hives out and replace with empty hive boxes, just to see if they can tell the difference in the bees that are "swarming" every where.

That is just some questions to ponder upon.

Good luck with it.

G3


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

Its probably one of their armchair lawyer types but you should get a real one to look at it. The bottom line, prove those bees are yours!!!


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## JL_COG (Oct 26, 2009)

*There are six Warre and three Langstroth
*i am quite close. in my backyard
*our entire property is one half acre - the hives are just before the sixty by sixty foot garden at the back of the yard
*currently trying to find out any civil codes (which can be passed quickly i bet)
*Trying to get a visit with the Mayor at my house (small town) to reason with him and solicit his backing


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

I would meet with the city. Determine what the problem is. And if any honeybees are responsible. Can the problem be solved?

If not, then get your bees out of there, whether it's your bees causing the problem or not. It's the right neighborly thing to do whether the bees are technically legal or not. It's the prudent thing to do because any bee problem, if you don't, will automatically be associated with you. And it's just a more pleasant experience taking a short drive to your beeyard in the country and having neighbors you can tolerate compared to a neighborhood war.

As beekeepers we love our bees. But to many others they're engender fear the same as poisonous snakes(i know people who like them as much as we like our bees), etc, would to some beekeepers. When commercial beekeeping, my son could jump from a standing position onto the back of a one ton flatbed when he heard those rattlers under a beehive rattle. :>)

Put yourself in their shoes. What would you do if your neighbor were raising poisons snakes
and you found them in your garden, on your porch, in your house, in your pool.

Regards - Dennis


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Was this letter written on City Letterhead? If so, I would say move the bees. As stated earlier, it's the neighborly thing to do and in my way of thinking, it would be common courtesy to my neighbors. Not all people are overly joyous with honeybees, and their reasons sounded very sincere and very believable. It sounds just exactly what might happen to any neighbor of a beekeeper. If it is not on City Letterhead, I would investigate further, but be prepared to move the bees.


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## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

I would guess, being a Missouri girl myself. That Shelbyville just has a lawyer figure head. Depending on your financial situation, call up an attorney, and present your case based on the honeybee being Missouris state insect. But be prepared for a little backlash. 

Your bees are probabally on thier hummingbird feeders. But nine hives on one town lot, is a lot. more intimadating than anything though.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would move all the bees and put several empty hives with no bees in their place. Then when they come to make you move them I'd say, "what bees?". Obviously, then it's not your bees that are a problem. Come winter, move them back.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Actually, it seems like there needs to be a lot more education in that town. So many people there are truly 'allergic' to bee stings? The percentage of people who are truly 'allergic' across the country is exceptionally low, why should the population concentration in your town be higher?

Perhaps there is a nature center or community organization that can help you disseminate information on the behavior of honey bees. Their 'field behavior' is different from their 'at home' behavior in terms of defensiveness.

It would be better to look at this as an opportunity to educate rather than a threat. Prepare a list as to why having honey bees in town, be they feral or managed, is a benefit. The risks of someone being stung by a honey bee whether it's one of yours or not is statistically so low that it's almost negligible.

Who will they complain to when a feral bee stings someone?

These folks definitely sound like they need some education. Without it, all they have is fear to go on.

Big Bear


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## B Reeves (Oct 2, 2009)

I would try and educate them, they probably are not bees they are seeing, ask for a compromise and move all but two.
Bob


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

I like Michael`s answer :thumbsup:


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## RZRBCK BEE (May 14, 2009)

honeyman46408 said:


> I like Michael`s answer :thumbsup:


Me too.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Nine bee hives very close to senior citizen housing and you didn't expect problems? Just wait for the next dearth when aunt Mable is outside drinking a soda.... Move the bees and be thankful you haven't gotten in trouble sooner.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

The 50 deaths per year from bee stings are generally in people aged 40 and older, many of whom have pre-existing heart conditions..........

Thats 50 deaths per YEAR on the average......They need, as BBO said, Edumacation........


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I had one booming hive, two splits and 6 hived packages at my place last month and even though most had relatively little in the way of bee population, there were still way too many bees for my little place with two nearby neighbors. Relocated the excess to outyards and may keep two, possibly three at home. Everyone's happy. Me, my neighbors and the bees.

I agree, keeping nine hives in a neighborhood as you described has pushed your luck. Find a good outyard for your excess follow Michael Bush's advice.

Wayne


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## boknows honey bee's (May 19, 2010)

It comes down to the old saying out of site out of mind. Put up an enclosure, fence that blocks there view from the street or were ever they are being seen. I bet it is a close by neighbor who has the honey bees around there yard and can see your hives. They are frecked out by them. Perhaps some education in your defence on how gental honey bees really are, and the importance of there being. Good luck


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

Are there any city ordinances in place that forbide you to have the bees in city limits? Probably not, but they probably have ordinances in place about public nuisance, and this one is what they would probably get you with. Personally., i would think more than 3 hives on your place, in your situation, would raise eyebrows. To many, wasps and bees are the same. And regardless if a swarm comes from your hives or other places, they want to point the finger at whatever is most visible. Place your hives behind privacy fences, in urban settings, and reduce your potential for problems. In the mean time, go meet with the city attorney, and listen to what he says, and then go see the problem that is being used against you. It could be yellow jackets or guinea wasps.


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## mothergoosemagic (Feb 26, 2010)

Last year I built a 10x14 "barn" to obstensively house my larger yard equipment, and coincidently, my beehives. Lots of painted over windows for cross breeze, clear roofing, not heated. Full sun in the morning, under shade by mid afternoon. Same temp inside & out.

The hives are shoved up against the eastern side wall so I can work them from the back. There's a long slot in the wall that can be managed by 2x4s (think ginormous entrance reducer) as the number of hives (up to 4) increase. There's a stack of misc scrap lumber disguising the front entrances, and I can control the flight path by installing various barriers.

I do this because I have a neighbor who is a complete jerk and will never change. When I want to work the bees, I go into the barn, close the door, get on the gear and spend as much time as I need. I always give the girls a little "treat" for being patient, i.e. a nice plate of yummy sugar water in the far corner of the barn. This generally draws any strays so I can undress at the barn door & leave.

I originally built a chainlink fence the minute we bought the property, and then last year, ran 200+ feet of 6 foot wooden fence *inside* the chain link. Did I mention they're jerks over there?


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

mothergoosemagic said:


> Last year I built a 10x14 "barn" ....number of hives (up to 4) increase. When I want to work the bees, I go into the barn, close the door



When those 4 hives get powerful and you close the door during the honey flow, I would think that it would be obvious to your neighbors that you have a bunch of bees in your back yard when all of those foragers can't get in.

Let us know how that works.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

Respond by suing the city attorney. I'm serious. Unless the city has an ordinance against keeping bees, he is using his position to harrass and threaten you.


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## mothergoosemagic (Feb 26, 2010)

beedeetee said:


> When those 4 hives get powerful and you close the door during the honey flow, I would think that it would be obvious to your neighbors that you have a bunch of bees in your back yard when all of those foragers can't get in.
> 
> Let us know how that works.


The *bees* can get in & out any time as their access is never blocked. The barn sits at the top of our property, over 175 feet from any dwelling. The flight path is directed up the hill toward another neighbor's property (2 1/2 acres) & they live way, way up on top of that hill. Nasty neighbors, who like to sit on their side porch and throw cigarette butts & trash *over* the fence and into our yard, can't see the bees or flight path from said porch. However, if I were to traipse around wearing the full bee gear, they would definitely see that due to the porch being lower than the back yard, even with the tall fence.

If the barn starts getting a little cramped, I've already got three different people in the country begging me to place some bees with them. And yes, I do fully appreciate how fortunate that I am.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

Bens-Bees said:


> Respond by suing the city attorney. I'm serious. Unless the city has an ordinance against keeping bees, he is using his position to harrass and threaten you.


The last thing I would do is sue the attorney. Its a no win, hes an attorney! Instead I would find out from the town counsel who it is that is complaining, you have a right to know. A person being accused of something has the right to know who the accuser is. I would then politely speak with the accuser and see if an agreement could be reached. Like it was said earlier, it sounds like education needs to be given. 
Today I had a neighbor state that they were allergic to bee stings, but when I picked a bee up off a blackberry blossom and showed them that there was no threat, the neighbor's attitude completely changed. Now she is happily waiting for her "huge" blackberry crop. Talking can solve many problems. It is worth a shot.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Like Mr. Bushes idea, totally disagree with Ray Marler! Othe than Mr. Bush idea what I would tell the attorney cannot be printed here....Sherri would have a good idea what it would be! LOL...lets just say it would be VERy colorful!


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## baldwinbees (Mar 2, 2010)

move them&set up some empties....they can't prove they are your bees,but why cause yourself grief....when you meet the city counsel see if they will compromise by keeping 1or2 hives if kept 'out of sight'....they can create a new city statute against you in a minute.....I give my neighbors half-pints of honey at various times to keep them happy&have gone to the grouchy neighbors' house to catch my bees that were 'swarming' his house only to find ground wasps....killed their nest for him&won his appreciation


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## Wyo (May 17, 2010)

You have to pick your battles, and quite honestly, this is a battle I would take on. I don’t take well to threats- especially from a municipal attorney. Obviously, you need to make every effort to resolve it through education and awareness. Research other localities that allow hives (preferably cities roughly the same size). If there is already an ordinance prohibiting beekeeping, try bringing an observation hive to a city council meeting. Chances are, they would appreciate the experience. If that doesn’t work, legal action (or defense) would have to be the next step. This is just one more example of the government trying to control people and legislate what they can do on their own land. As mentioned earlier, the honeybee is your state insect- you should be fine...


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

AstroBee said:


> Nine bee hives very close to senior citizen housing and you didn't expect problems? Just wait for the next dearth when aunt Mable is outside drinking a soda.... Move the bees and be thankful you haven't gotten in trouble sooner.


The only part I agree with the city on is that 9 hives is a bit much on 1/2 an acre in a urban setting. I can see 2-4 and would fight for that. So you might have to compromise down too that number. But, fight the city. I sued one once. It is a loosing battle because they have a free lawyer. :scratch:


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## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

EastSideBuzz, actually, most smaller towns in Missouri do not have a free attorney.  they have to pay hourly rates too. They are contractual hourly rates, but still hourly rates.. Maybe Neil will pop in here and offer an opinion..


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

charmd2 said:


> EastSideBuzz, actually, most smaller towns in Missouri do not have a free attorney.  they have to pay hourly rates too. They are contractual hourly rates, but still hourly rates.. Maybe Neil will pop in here and offer an opinion..


I know that. My dad is a contracted City attorney and he did quite well for 30 years. What I meant is the council thinks that money is no object and they will try to bury you in litigation with your own tax dollars. So basically you are paying to sue yourself.


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## plaztikjezuz (Apr 22, 2010)

EastSideBuzz said:


> I know that. My dad is a contracted City attorney and he did quite well for 30 years. What I meant is the council thinks that money is no object and they will try to bury you in litigation with your own tax dollars. So basically you are paying to sue yourself.


at least you are getting your monies worth. 


OP: I like the empty hives idea


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

I don't like threats or lawyers, put empty boxes, then refuse to move them, refuse to allow anyone inspect them, and tell them to prove it is your bees causing the "problem". I'm guessing you hav'nt had any swarms leave? so there is no problem, just lying liers telling lies! Then when you get to court (make them sue you), offer to take the judge into your yard.


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## Dubuquer (Jun 1, 2009)

9 hives on a residential lot is quite a few. That being said - figure out what the laws in your community say about keeping bees, work on educating the neighbors, take some honey to the home and try to figure out a compromise that works for YOU. Don't give up your personal liberties without doing all you can to handle it the way YOU want the situation resolved. There are too many liberties being taken away from you already. Stand up for what you believe in or be prepared for all freedom to be taken away.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

If the city council were to then ban beekeeping in the city, that would not be good.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

So, what's going on? Any new news?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

If you are intimidated into moving your bees elsewhere or giving up beekeeping it may as well be banned. What would be the difference? Either way you would no longer have your bees.


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## JL_COG (Oct 26, 2009)

Nine hives does seem like a lot, however my goal is seven hives with the following difference: Six of my hives are Warre with a thirty centimeter square box twenty one centimeters high (about a half size box) while three are standard Langstroths which will be phased out. A couple of swarm calls this year temporarily ran up the hive number. Our property is about a half acre with farms in all directions, a sixty by sixty vegetable garden in the rear of the lot with an eight by sixty strip of rocks in front of the garden to give stable footing to the hive bases. The reason for the smaller hives is to aid in overwintering our hard winters. Last February had not a single 'warm' day and it killed two standard hives. My biggest 'sin' was that i couldn't afford to provide hives for the unexpected additional hives AND the fence too. All our direct neighbors were fine with us having bees as we checked first. The Senior Citizens Housing can be seen from our home but is several lots away. Everyone assumes (as did members here on the forum) that the bees WERE swarming and ARE MINE. Neither is verifiable even by myself as i did not see it. The local paper says it will publish pro beekeeping information when they have room if i provide it. This in advance of a town meeting to pass an anti bee ordinance (i hope) which is required to enact a new law. There are plenty of places out of town to put the hives but then i have to load up and transport which had in been the case from the start i wouldn't bee a beek - too old! Seeing a lawyer for consultation Tuesday. I know i cannot be forced legally to move the bees without an ordinance. If i win my cause then they enact an ordinance i still loose. Its a six hundred people town and i have to live here also and wish to be no less than an agreeable neighbor. All the input has been helpful, thanks.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

Here in Texas, when laws such as you speak of, are passed, people already doing what you are doing, are grandfathered. Meaning, they can't stop operations already going, but there will not be any future operations, at any places not already doing it. You need to hit the road and start politicking. Just because an ordinance is proposed, doesn't mean it is automatically passed. Request that it be put on a ballot. Present your side. I doubt that there was actually a swarm, and I doubt that anyone was stung. 

If they actually make you move them, I would do what M. Bush said, or build a wood fence were the hives were at, just to make them wonder.


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## JL_COG (Oct 26, 2009)

Well, now there will be a board meeting on Monday, June 8, 2010 and i need to bring a NICE list of positive reasons why they should let me keep bees in town to present to the four Aldermen of Shelbyville. Nice and polite and friendly like and to the point, nothing negative or smart alec, but sincere and in the interests of the whole town. So if anyone knows of such information already compiled a link would sure be handy. Thanks, JL.


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## stump56 (Apr 27, 2010)

how did it go


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

I have a friend that had 50 on his large lot in the middle of dallas. He had a nice queen mating area in there. Also forage year 'round


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Has Hambone been busy in Dallas "borrowing" hives again???:lookout:


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Here in Maine the state association came up with some "best management practices" that can help the beekeeper in situations such as yours, presuming of course that you are following the practices!

Does your state have best practices? Do you have a state apiarist? I'd talk with him/her before speaking with the town elders. There may be something going on state wide that you ought to know about.

I hope everything works out for you.


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## bobber128 (Jun 6, 2010)

JL_COG said:


> *There are six Warre and three Langstroth
> *i am quite close. in my backyard
> *our entire property is one half acre - the hives are just before the sixty by sixty foot garden at the back of the yard
> *currently trying to find out any civil codes (which can be passed quickly i bet)
> *Trying to get a visit with the Mayor at my house (small town) to reason with him and solicit his backing


As for the civil codes (or even city ordinances), check the date. If they were enacted after your bees were placed, the city will be hard pressed to force you to move them, as they were there legally when the law was passed. 

On another note, I'd consider a push to get any standing city ordinances overturned, a'la NYC/ Spokane/ Seattle, and countless others. I'm actually doing this in my small city (right now I have my bees about a mile away, literally feet from the city limits, so I'm legal).


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## DutchBee (Jul 14, 2009)

honeyman46408 said:


> I like Michael`s answer :thumbsup:


ditto

exactly what I would do


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Its not hard for even the most ignorant of people to kill all of your hives. Such poisonings are very hard to prove and easy to perpetrate due to the widespread use of insecticides. Follow Michael's advice if you like, but get those hives to a new location.


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## Elwood (Apr 8, 2009)

I keep a hive or two in my back yard, 1/4 ac. lot. When they start to get big I'll split them or move them. So far I have had no complaints but I do try to keep it on the down low.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

In my village, beekeeping isnt banned, but my zoning is residential, and we are allowed to maintain a dwelling, mutliple family homes and home based businesses. Keeping of livestock is prohibited, but I dont see anything about keeping bees as prohibited. Just to be on the safe side, I registered as a sole proprietorship with the county clerk, and have an instant home based business, just to cover myself.You may want to look into something like that in your town.


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## Wee3Bees Apiary (Feb 21, 2006)

Some state laws define honeybees as livestock. If livestock is not permitted in an area and honeybees are considered livestock, then they wouldn't be permitted in that area.


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## Swobee (May 18, 2007)

In years past, I was a building and zoning official for a community and portions of the rural area surrounding it. Any time our office sent a letter for correction, a copy of the particular code, zoning regulation, ordinance was included for the citizen to review and see with their own eyes what we were trying to enforce. It is a necessary, but thankless job. If there is an ordinance or zoning regulation, then you must comply. If there are legitimate complaints but no ordinance, then it looks more or less like a civil matter. Choose your battles, but I still like the stack of empty hive bodies as Michael Bush mentioned and vote for that move. Often, we were forced to act on what we viewed as a relatively harmless situation due to a prominent complaining party. I think everybody should work for the public at least once in their lives just to experience it. You don't know what an ear full the attorney may have gotten from an ill-informed citizen complaining about the "swarm" of bees that might probably be wasps instead. I'm not defending the one who sent the letter in any way, but there are two to three sides to every story. For example, a friend of mine's father was the noxious weed director at their county. All it took for a bevy of calls to his office was for one of his staff's trucks to simply drive by a home and next thing you know... the garden is dead because the spray killed it. Even though the truck was simply driving down the road with no spraying happening at all. Working for the public has its unique traits and merits.

I highly recommend you politely respond to the letter and ask to speak person to person with the city attorney. He/she is likely under pressure from someone to act or the letter wouldn't have been sent to you. It may be only a bluff if there is no ordinance or zoning regulation being violated. If he/she can bluff you into acting and removing the "offending bees", then he wins and gets the complaining party off his back. If it's a civil matter, then he/she has no reason to send you a letter unless their office is representing the complaining party. Best luck. Public education is going to help your cause more than any negative actions will.


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