# Saskatraz Updates?



## R.Varian

saskatraz.com


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## Clayton Huestis

Varroa resistance?


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## Clayton Huestis

Bumping questions back up to see if any answers?


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## oldsap

Our first year with Saskatraz but this is a frame from a nuc we dropped a queen and a frame of brood and a few shakes of bees in second week of April. Then more snow and cold hit and they just keep growing.
I wanted to add some good genetics and hoping this helps.


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## AstroBee

oldsap said:


> View attachment 40069
> 
> Our first year with Saskatraz but this is a frame from a nuc we dropped a queen and a frame of brood and a few shakes of bees in second week of April. Then more snow and cold hit and they just keep growing.
> I wanted to add some good genetics and hoping this helps.


Can you provide the source for the queen and if this frame is a result of the original Saskatraz queen or a daughter.


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## oldsap

This mated queen is from Olivarez. She is not a breeder queen, that I can't afford to make a few dozen queens. We bought 5 to add to our small operation. We purchased queens from them before for May splits and were very pleased with the results.


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## Jake264

I bought one last year and put in a nuc to try out. She over wintered in a 5X5 nuc and is currently in 3 deep 10 frame boxes and going to town. I couldn't be happier with her and have put 10 more saskatraz queens into hives this spring


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## COAL REAPER

got a couple packages with OHB saska queens on march 31. laying quite well. hived on mostly drawn comb and grown into 3 mediums. intent is to add diversity to my drone pool. hoping they put up decent honey crop as well. its still early. I checked the 13th day after install and there was eggs but no larvae yet. workers are about a week from becoming of field force age.


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## bushpilot

Very unscientific, but my one Saskatraz package is brooding up like gangbusters.


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## Outdoor N8

Ians' take:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dvJvIi5UHA


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## Michael Palmer

Clayton Huestis said:


> Varroa resistance?


Colonies with some mite load but low DWV titer? That's what I want to see from this stock. Albert Robertson has said his "good" lines have high production but low DWV. Looking forward to see if this pans out. Of course, the "Saskatraz" stock in the US is from Olivarez....breeders from Robertson. Also, Albert has sent virgins to Coby for II. So there is some of that line out there. 

I got some queens from Albert last July. They came in middle July, so too late to winter in nucs. That's my preferred first selection. We used the 25 queens for requeening. I really haven't been able to evaluate these colonies. Still early season here in the Champlain Valley. No pollen here this year until 4/22.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc

Thanks Mike. I look forward to your evaluation. We are late up here in Maine as well. 
4/29/18 bees starting on Red Maples.
5/6/18 First Dandelions bloomed.


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## COAL REAPER

near black drones from my saskstraz colonies


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## bushpilot

At our meeting last night, beekeepers with new Saskatraz packages were in agreement that they like to build comb. Several noted comb building in the inline feeders (Mann Lake style). I have not seen any excessive comb building myself, but have given them plenty of room.


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## COAL REAPER

bushpilot said:


> I have not seen any excessive comb building myself, but have given them plenty of room.


same here. I gave 3 empty drawn supers 5 weeks after install. they are not really working them yet. TP is just about to open here.


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## Josh Peal

Is there a type of package that doesn't like to draw comb?


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## Clayton Huestis

> Still early season here in the Champlain Valley. No pollen here this year until 4/22.


Just across the lake. Probably a few days before you but not enough to make much difference. You finding your bees in general set back by the late spring MP? I put pollen sub on 4/1, they nibbled on it but mostly wanted the real stuff.


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## MimbresBees

Bought 5 queens last season, all over wintered fine, no loss here in S.Or.
They filled out 2 deep and 1 medium 10 frames by mid april and have 2 supers on each now, blackberries are blooming here on the Rogue.
We'll see how honey production stacks up against the old sol caucs, palmer carnis, OH mike's russian, and ferguson buckfasts this season.


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## heaflaw

MimbresBees said:


> We'll see how honey production stacks up against the old sol caucs, palmer carnis, OH mike's russian, and ferguson buckfasts this season.


Let us know. These are all very well thought of lines.


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## Michael Palmer

Clayton Huestis said:


> You finding your bees in general set back by the late spring MP?


Oh yeah. Cancelled my first two cell builder setup days. Bees weren't ready. Set up the first four yesterday.


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## oldsap

We just finished first round of queens. Later but the weather watmed just in time. Drone population is good but later than normal also.


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## COAL REAPER

mine appear to have recently just fell on their face. lots of foragers but not storing excess nectar. small brood nests. my other hives are continuing to grow so I don't think its a lack of resources. black locust and tulip poplar just bloomed. queens were laying fantastic a few weeks ago. I went through and made sure marked queens were still there and put them in bottom box. will check in a week or so and see if they rebounded after I shuffled their deck a bit.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc

COAL REAPER said:


> mine appear to have recently just fell on their face. lots of foragers but not storing excess nectar. small brood nests. my other hives are continuing to grow so I don't think its a lack of resources. black locust and tulip poplar just bloomed. queens were laying fantastic a few weeks ago. I went through and made sure marked queens were still there and put them in bottom box. will check in a week or so and see if they rebounded after I shuffled their deck a bit.


Please let me know how they recover.


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## johno

I checked one of the four queens I got earlier this year and found the bees to be very runny on the comb which is not a good trait, I will try to check the other 3 this week and see if they are different. The reason I checked one is because they were washboarding and I wanted to make sure that they had enough space, which they did.
Johno


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## Cuttingedgelandinc

It seems that I am hearing mixed reports. Some love them and some hate them. 
You are certainly right about being runny on combs being undesirable. My primary concern with these is that many new beekeepers are getting them and they are being superseded or swarming probably without the beekeeper even knowing. The resulting queen would produce drones that express the traits of the California drone population.


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## johno

Well I am not so sure about the California drones as I am very impressed with some NW Carniolan queens from California, very quiet and calm when being worked producing a good crop of honey and at this point showing no signs of swarm preps. We will see how they stack up against the Saskatraz next year as they overwintered and the Saskatraz were hived in spring.
Johno


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## Cloverdale

5 Saskatraz queens in May, 4 made swarm cells with plenty of room in the hive; 1 did not build up well, very slow, another a little better. Most had a good brood patterns. 2 had low mite counts.


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## Josh Peal

Cloverdale said:


> 5 Saskatraz queens in May, 4 made swarm cells with plenty of room in the hive; 1 did not build up well, very slow, another a little better. Most had a good brood patterns. 2 had low mite counts.


Just to sate curiosity, were these marked and/or clipped queens?


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## Cloverdale

Marked but not clipped. 3 of those queens definitely swarmed, none of the other hives have. Out of 18 hives 4 are collected swarms, 5 were the Saskatraz (used one to requeen a nasty swarm from last year that one swarmed today), two are queens received end of June and are in a dbl nuc, the rest overwintered hives. From what I’ve read here it seems that no one else has this problem so I’m wondering what I’m doing wrong.


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## AstroBee

Cloverdale said:


> 3 of those queens definitely swarmed, none of the other hives have.


Just so that I fully understand, of the 4 that produced swarm cells, 3 actually swarmed, right? 

You say the 4 with swarm cells had plenty of room. Was this extra space drawn comb or foundation? If foundation, please share exactly how it was provided. 

Generally speaking, if managed properly, first year queens are usually pretty resistant to swarming, particularly if they are given plenty of space. Of course, in addition to management, genetics plays a big role in swarming behavior, so if all things were done well, your experience is kinda a red flag to me. Has anyone else seen increased swarming tendencies? I realize that the sample size is 5 in your case, and great care should be taken when attempting to draw conclusions with such few samples, but I'm not impressed by swarmy bees even if they can run zero mites counts....


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## Cloverdale

Going back on my notes: Queen 1 was used to requeen an overwintered hive (Swarm2) on 5/28 w push in cage. When applying ForPro (15 mites) on 8/20 two med. supers full of swarm cells, brood and nectar, drawn frames in all boxes (1 deep 5 supers unlimited brood nest) with room. Thought maybe she got honeybound in those two supers, so rearranged boxes. Did not remove swarm cells. Swarmed yesterday didn’t catch it.
Queen 2 (Sputnick) great brood pattern, low mites, no treatment, build up good.
Queen 3 (Andy), good pattern, 2 mites, no treatment, swarmed 8/15, 8 frame hive, 2 deeps 3 supers. All drawn frames and room.
Queen 4 (Luke)1 mite, no treatment, slow buildup, all drawn frames, she was up in a super full of swarm cells, with an empty deep right below her;I’m not sure why the deep was empty, put her down there w a med. frame of open brood. Took a cell out to requeen a top bar and destroyed some cells, left one or two. Went to inspect again and heard queen piping, so just left it. It probably swarmed for whatever reason.
Queen 5 (Polski) was OK build up, good brood pattern, 16 mites.

I do an unlimited broodnest in 10 frame lang’s, and super early. I name my hives so I know what’s going on with them, easier for me. We are in a heavy flow right now and Polski and Sputnick are going gangbusters. I have a sustainable apiary and wanted to get some different genetics in there. I have Ferguson Buckfast, Mike Palmer, Saskatraz, mutts and swarm queens.


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## AstroBee

Cloverdale

Thanks for providing some data. Your notes suggest that your management was probably not the issue. So, you had 3 of 5 Saskatraz queens (Queen 1, Queen 3, and Queen 4) swarm, right? Again, I hesitate making judgements based upon 5 queens, but 3 of 5 queens installed in May and swarmed by the end of August is not very promising.

Swarming tendencies are one of the things I select for, so if these were my bees, they would likely all be eliminated as future breeders.


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## oldsap

If your bees swarm after your honey flow is over, you get a brood break, a new queen to over winter and start her most productive year in the spring. As long as you have your honey and the hive gets enough resources for the winter it is not a bad trait.


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## Cloverdale

Agree, nothing like a new end of summer queen; but our “Fall” honey flow is on now, knotweed, very strong, so two swarmed earlier than this flow with the stored Spring honey and one just a few days ago which was loaded with nectar. We still have goldenrod flow to come and a few later flowers. I personally don’t want swarmy bees. Someone on another post said they were runny, but I didn’t notice that.


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## johno

I got in 4 Saskatraz queens this spring and none of them have swarmed so far, one of the hives had very runny bees which I was not too happy about but the other 3 are fine. One of them produced a good crop of honey during this years 4 week flow and by the looks of the hive I could take another super so they would have produced about 100 lbs of honey where I am lucky to average 50 lbs a year in my area. I am interested to see how they all do next season.
Johno


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## Cloverdale

The two that are left seem to be doing good; how were your mite counts with them?


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## oldsap

The 5 saskatraz- no swarming.yet. Golden rod and asters are just starting and a little star thistle here and there. Last year every May split we had (italian queens) swarmed in August. So it might not be the breed but something else triggering the swarming.


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## johno

Cloverdale my mite counts at present are mostly around 1 per 1/2 cup but I have treated all my hives with OAV. I have an agreement with my bees, they make honey and I will take care of their mites. For years I went along with bringing in mite resistant stock and all I got out of it was diminishing honey yields, so now I select for production. With my Cheap Vap, OAV is no problem and I get through my colonies at a hive a minute.
Johno


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## AstroBee

oldsap said:


> If your bees swarm after your honey flow is over, you get a brood break, a new queen to over winter and start her most productive year in the spring. As long as you have your honey and the hive gets enough resources for the winter it is not a bad trait.


Well, regarding the swarming trait, the thing is that it's not predictable, and when it occurs in the spring (at least in our area) your production is massively reduced (maybe 1/4 production of a non-swarmed colony). Yes, a fall swarm is not as impactful, but the simple fact that 3 of 5 *first-season* queens have swarmed is definitely concerning. I'd much rather directly manage varroa through a variety of mechanisms than deal with swarming and the resulting production losses.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc

AstroBee said:


> Well, regarding the swarming trait, the thing is that it's not predictable, and when it occurs in the spring (at least in our area) your production is massively reduced (maybe 1/4 production of a non-swarmed colony). Yes, a fall swarm is not as impactful, but the simple fact that 3 of 5 *first-season* queens have swarmed is definitely concerning. I'd much rather directly manage varroa through a variety of mechanisms than deal with swarming and the resulting production losses.


Well stated and I strongly agree.


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## Cloverdale

oldsap said:


> The 5 saskatraz- no swarming.yet. Golden rod and asters are just starting and a little star thistle here and there. Last year every May split we had (italian queens) swarmed in August. So it might not be the breed but something else triggering the swarming.


We had 13 colonies to overwinter last year, 9 successfully; of the 4 that died, 3 were late caught swarms and the last one died in April, we had a very long hard winter. Not one of our hives has swarmed this year except the 3 Saskatraz. I was hoping for a supersedure so we could have new queens but it didn’t happen.


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## jcase

What is the claimed Saskatraz mite resistance/tolerance mechanism(s)?


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## Cloverdale

You can find all information on them at saskatraz.com


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## jcase

Cloverdale said:


> You can find all information on them at saskatraz.com


I must be missing it.


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## Cloverdale

I’m not sure what you mean, but I think you have to add www.saskatraz.com


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## Clayton Huestis

Bumping thread back up to top. Updates? Varroa counts?


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## Cloverdale

My update is all 5 queens swarmed, one didn’t make it back (laying worker). One hive is more hygienic than most of my hives. All hives in the apiary had a tremendous honey yield this year, even the swarms that were caught. :thumbsup: All the hives received OxAcidVapor on 10/7, I didn’t do a mite count again.


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## mtnmyke

I tried these the first year they were available from Oliverez. Ordered five and about 10 Italians and 10 Carniolans to go with the order.

The ONLY hives I lost that year were the Saskatraz. As they got smaller and sicker I soon realized it was because of EFB. All my other hives were uninfected. For queens that are suppose to be resistance to brood diseases I was less than impressed.

One of them superseded late in the year and the new queen made it through the winter. She built up...ok...but is now my smallest hive going back into Winter. All others were lost the first year.

Unimpressed and won't be ordering them again as my "run of the mill" or as some would say "non-namebrand" queens outperformed on everything.


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## Live Oak

Too early for me to give an accurate account. I built about 45 nucleus colonies and queened them with Sassies. A couple got robbed out but the rest got off to a really slow start but are coming on strong now. I am feeding them heavily preparing them for Winter. Will get back to you this Spring after I have had enough time to observe how they over wintered and how they brood up.


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## Cloverdale

mtnmyke said:


> I tried these the first year they were available from Oliverez. Ordered five and about 10 Italians and 10 Carniolans to go with the order.
> 
> The ONLY hives I lost that year were the Saskatraz. As they got smaller and sicker I soon realized it was because of EFB. All my other hives were uninfected. For queens that are suppose to be resistance to brood diseases I was less than impressed.
> 
> One of them superseded late in the year and the new queen made it through the winter. She built up...ok...but is now my smallest hive going back into Winter. All others were lost the first year.
> 
> Unimpressed and won't be ordering them again as my "run of the mill" or as some would say "non-namebrand" queens outperformed on everything.


I didn’t mention that the one hive that seemed hygienic has EFB, no others. It seemed like a healthy hive at one time.


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## mtnmyke

Cloverdale said:


> I didn’t mention that the one hive that seemed hygienic has EFB, no others. It seemed like a healthy hive at one time.


Same problem I had. They built up very well upon arrival and did just fine, not my best queens, but did well. I was VERY sad when they tested positive for EFB as again, one of the big things they sell these on is their ability to fight brood diseases - yet be my only hives that got them.

I ended up burning all the comb in the hives when they died and charred my equipment. Definitely didn't want that spreading and I even got a VFD for terramycin so I'd have it on hand - if it were to spread.


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## Cloverdale

mtnmyke said:


> Same problem I had. They built up very well upon arrival and did just fine, not my best queens, but did well. I was VERY sad when they tested positive for EFB as again, one of the big things they sell these on is their ability to fight brood diseases - yet be my only hives that got them.
> 
> I ended up burning all the comb in the hives when they died and charred my equipment. Definitely didn't want that spreading and I even got a VFD for terramycin so I'd have it on hand - if it were to spread.


I used the terramycin for the first time on them; I usually have a “no tolerance” in my yard, I would have burned everything but wanted to try this, hopefully I’m not sorry. I have another hive with nosema cerana, which I will let die also, get rid of the frames and freeze equipment. That will kill the n. cerana spores as per Randy O. 
It seems like many people are very happy with them so I hate to label them all as “not good”; as with any honey bee genus you get a mixed bag so to speak. I do have to give a thumbs up on Michael Palmer queens. Never have I had a polite bee, and these bees are polite  In the dbl. nuc one entrance faces back, so when working hives on either side you are in the way of the entrance and the bee traffic. They actually waited for us to move, no bumping or bothering us. My husband and I were quite impressed.


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## mtnmyke

Still strange that I have over 30 hives and the ONLY ones that get EFB are the ones that are suppose to be resistant to it. Also lost 4 of the 5 and the remaining superseded.

In my eyes, not looking good. I'll stick to my local "mutts" as they seem to be the only thing that absolutely crank!


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## Joel

AstroBee said:


> Well, regarding the swarming trait, the thing is that it's not predictabl...... I'd much rather directly manage varroa through a variety of mechanisms than deal with swarming and the resulting production losses.


I agree...I'll manage mites without depending on swarm traits. We keep and manage hives in single deeps most of the year and we keep them looking like "Sumo Wrestlers" as Randy Oliver would say. Swarm management/ prevention is right at the top of our list of priorities for successful wintering. A brood break in late summer means I am hedging my bets against a strong winter cluster hatching in time as well as impacting that late seasonal honey gathering I need to fill center combs for winter. We should factor in we have not had 4 straight days without rain since May (at least here in the Finger Lakes Region of New York) and yet a surprisingly strong spring flow into mid summer. This crowded many hives by mid August and also kept bees confined for way too much time. We heard from quite a few of "our" beekeepers they had late swarms this year.


We also have a rule about adding any new "Bullet Proof" stock.to.our own stock, wait and see., We have seen many over our 25 years and few added up to half the hype. I am happy to see folks here thoughtful enough to test and post new stock information. Even in small numbers we can make deductions over the course of many posts. We need new genetics in the US for certain....I wish we would see more influence from the Guelph Buckfast project. Perhaps we could get Ian and Jean Marc working on that for us, in their spare time


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## Cloverdale

First, shame on me for not identifying correctly what was wrong with the Saskatraz hive; I believe it is PMS not, again, not EFB. I believe our mite rolls were off when we did them it was so humid here; that hive rolled 1 mite, but on one side of this hive we had to treat because of high mite counts, the other side was another Sas. queen that rolled 1, and the next two were in the teens. 
As for Joel’s comment above regarding Buckfast, 2 years ago a guy from Norwich drove up to Fergusons and brought down some Buckfast queens. I bought 3. Still have one, that’s the hive that has n. cerana. The other hive swarmed and became really nasty and we requeened it with a Sas. this year. Calmed it right down but of course it swarmed. That is my experience with Buckfast ( from Weavers too) that when they swarm they get nasty.


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## Juhani Lunden

Joel said:


> ..I wish we would see more influence from the Guelph Buckfast project. Perhaps we could get Ian and Jean Marc working on that for us, in their spare time


Ian who?
Jean Marc who?

https://aristabeeresearch.org/

The second video has has subtitles in English and it is about BartJan Fernhauts work in Hawaii and presenting Baton Rouge and Marken Group in Holland as well.

In the latest Buckfast Breeders Magazine (3/2018) there is a story by Sascha and Ulrich Müller of a VSH meeting where BartJan Fernhaut has been teaching. He told that they have in Hawaii ( 4 fulltime beekeepers helping him) queens which produce 100% VSH offspring. ( "100% VSH Verhalten erbstabil nachzuziehen") They are not Buckfast, more like Italian.


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## Vance G

I want to steal a little from this elderly thread. It is good to try new lines of bees and just when I have settled on a winner, the producer has the temerity to be 83 and is trying to find someone to take over his business. I love his bees, they are not mite proof in my location but are definitely resistant. I treat un apologetically but only once a cold country year. The outcrosses are not hot. I don't tolerate defensive bees. They are mite biters. I talked to Mr. Carpenter the other day and he is currently selecting next years breeders. He picks shirt sleeve bees with great production and then examines the dropped mites for battle damage. Only colonies where 75% or more of the mites show carapace damage or missing legs are chosen. Give Carpenters Apiaries in Frost proof Florida your consideration. If you are looking for a queen rearing operation, that is available for a price too I am sure.


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## Cloverdale

MimbresBees said:


> Bought 5 queens last season, all over wintered fine, no loss here in S.Or.
> They filled out 2 deep and 1 medium 10 frames by mid april and have 2 supers on each now, blackberries are blooming here on the Rogue.
> We'll see how honey production stacks up against the old sol caucs, palmer carnis, OH mike's russian, and ferguson buckfasts this season.


How did all your hives do?


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## Cloverdale

Vance G said:


> I want to steal a little from this elderly thread. It is good to try new lines of bees and just when I have settled on a winner, the producer has the temerity to be 83 and is trying to find someone to take over his business. I love his bees, they are not mite proof in my location but are definitely resistant. I treat un apologetically but only once a cold country year. The outcrosses are not hot. I don't tolerate defensive bees. They are mite biters. I talked to Mr. Carpenter the other day and he is currently selecting next years breeders. He picks shirt sleeve bees with great production and then examines the dropped mites for battle damage. Only colonies where 75% or more of the mites show carapace damage or missing legs are chosen. Give Carpenters Apiaries in Frost proof Florida your consideration. If you are looking for a queen rearing operation, that is available for a price too I am sure.


Thanks for the good info. Deb


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## mtnmyke

mtnmyke said:


> I tried these the first year they were available from Oliverez. Ordered five and about 10 Italians and 10 Carniolans to go with the order.
> 
> The ONLY hives I lost that year were the Saskatraz. As they got smaller and sicker I soon realized it was because of EFB. All my other hives were uninfected. For queens that are suppose to be resistance to brood diseases I was less than impressed.
> 
> One of them superseded late in the year and the new queen made it through the winter. She built up...ok...but is now my smallest hive going back into Winter. All others were lost the first year.
> 
> Unimpressed and won't be ordering them again as my "run of the mill" or as some would say "non-namebrand" queens outperformed on everything.


Update:

My hive with the superseded Saskatraz queen required a save this fall. (I have named the hive my Saskacruz hive Saskatraz x Santa Cruz as this queen mated here locally) It was dwindling down and upon inspection I found, yup, EFB. Good thing I had the terramycin on hand. I did three rounds of treatment and boosted it up with brood from other hives. I'm glad to say that it bounced back and is now filling their 8 frame box. I haven't noticed EFB in any of my other hives but fed a probiotic to all my hives to help compete with any EFB. I also fed this to the treated hive to rebuild their flora as I hate using antibiotics. All is looking well from here.

Am I simply having bad luck with the Saskatraz queens?
Why are only my Saskatraz lines getting EFB?
Should I try again?


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## Cloverdale

cancel


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## mtnmyke

Tough time for you to have a weak hive - with winter upon you.

Luckily here in Central CA we're just hitting the start of our nectar flow. Girls show build up quickly from here on out!


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## aran

i have 8 Saskatraz queens ordered for this year. Now im a little worried about EFB.
I have terramycin patties perhaps ill just give each nuc with the new Sask queen a little terramycin patty.


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## wildbranch2007

aran said:


> i have 8 Saskatraz queens ordered for this year. Now im a little worried about EFB.
> I have terramycin patties perhaps ill just give each nuc with the new Sask queen a little terramycin patty.


if you intend to do it you probably shouldn't post it, terramycin you need to have a prescription, and it never was approved for use in patties, and the rumor is that patties with terramycin is how afb got resistant to it.


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## aran

wildbranch2007 said:


> if you intend to do it you probably shouldn't post it, terramycin you need to have a prescription, and it never was approved for use in patties, and the rumor is that patties with terramycin is how afb got resistant to it.


really? I bought mine from mannlake about 5 years ago when i first started beekeeping .Ive never used them they have been in the freezer all this time. They may well be useless by now but this was a product from mannlake.


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## Juhani Lunden

aran said:


> i have 8 Saskatraz queens ordered for this year. Now im a little worried about EFB.


Bees susceptible to EFB or AFB are not worth a cent.


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## aran

Juhani Lunden said:


> Bees susceptible to EFB or AFB are not worth a cent.


i dont know who to believe. The reviews by some on BS here said they had EFB with saskatraz queens then other reviews online that say they are the best thing since sliced bread.
I guess ill give em a shot see how they do.


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## oldsap

We have had good luck with any bees we got from Oliverez. And the Saskatraz so far are overwintering as good as any we have. By mid March or early April I will be able to update. Still February and our spring in northern Michigan is a long way off. But if you are talking honey production then I am all for them. By far out produced all our other bees. We averaged over 100 lbs. per colony.


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## aran

oldsap said:


> We have had good luck with any bees we got from Oliverez. And the Saskatraz so far are overwintering as good as any we have. By mid March or early April I will be able to update. Still February and our spring in northern Michigan is a long way off. But if you are talking honey production then I am all for them. By far out produced all our other bees. We averaged over 100 lbs. per colony.


NICE! that makes me feel a little better.


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## abbee

I installed over 100 Saskatraz queens last year. They were the best honey producers I've ever had and they are super gentle to work. In six weeks, I'll know how well they overwintered.


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## aran

abbee said:


> I installed over 100 Saskatraz queens last year. They were the best honey producers I've ever had and they are super gentle to work. In six weeks, I'll know how well they overwintered.


yup we are all crossing our fingers here in upstate NY and longing for the end of winter too to see how many of our colonies made it.
As of a couple weeks ago i had 23 of 26 still going but we will see. This last couple months of winter always seems to be the telling time for survival at least in my area.


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## mtnmyke

Even with all the problems I had with mine I may give them another go. I got them two years ago, the first year they were released to the public. I'm hoping it was just an issue with OHB being new at selling them. However, out of my 5, having 4 die of EFB and the 5th supersceding only to need constant support, I'll definitely be holding my breath. I've never had EFB before and it's unfortunate I got it the year I tried out the Saskatraz strain. All my other hives seem unaffected. But those strains came from OHB's VSH Italians. With that said, and in my experience, I would say OHB's Italians are more resilient to brood diseases and many of my Italians received from the same order as the Saskatraz are still alive today.

I've since been on lockdown, burning/melting all old wax - not reusing anything, scorching the inside of my equipment, etc. I also have TerraPro on hand just in case.

Could it have been coincidence? Maybe. Should I try them again?


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## COAL REAPER

i have a couple observations i am wondering if anybody has experienced. right now i have good size saska clusters with no colony losses yet this winter.
these bees are quiet. when my other colonies are out for cleansing flights (2 or 3 this winter), the saskies stay home. and they have almost zero die off. i am used to a handful of dead bees on the bottom boards come spring. saska colonies are just a few.
i was not impressed at all by them last year. still giving them hope and interested to see how they do this spring.


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## aran

COAL REAPER said:


> i have a couple observations i am wondering if anybody has experienced. right now i have good size saska clusters with no colony losses yet this winter.
> these bees are quiet. when my other colonies are out for cleansing flights (2 or 3 this winter), the saskies stay home. and they have almost zero die off. i am used to a handful of dead bees on the bottom boards come spring. saska colonies are just a few.
> i was not impressed at all by them last year. still giving them hope and interested to see how they do this spring.


what was it you were not impressed with last year? honey production? Seems like their winter survival has been good from your post.


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## COAL REAPER

aran said:


> what was it you were not impressed with last year? honey production? Seems like their winter survival has been good from your post.


worth mentioning, this is a small sample size, 2 saskatraz. they were building up alright enough and then just stalled. i have been speculating why. i dont feel i messed with them too much. i installed them on drawn comb. i wanted to encourage drone production so i put frames of drone comb towards the outside of boxes, probably 3 frames worth per box. maybe too much. i left them alone for two weeks and at that point there was eggs but no larvae so i added two frames of brood from overwintered colonies. maybe that introduced some mites. about 6 weeks after queens started laying it was like they shut down for summer dearth. small brood nests, maybe 3-4 frames. but that is the peak of our nectar flow. and they had ample empty comb. thought maybe they were preparing to swarm but they never did. harvested one medium of honey. i ensured in fall that the original queens were still in the boxes. they were laying well again. fed 2 gallons of syrup in the fall. did not sample for mites but i treated with apivar in mid-july. rest assured, i have not given up on them.


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## COAL REAPER

i forgot to mention that they are very super gentle and calm on the comb!


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## Cloverdale

i installed them on drawn comb. i wanted to encourage drone production so i put frames of drone comb towards the outside of boxes, probably 3 frames worth per box.

I believe this is too many drone frames. I believe the percentage should be around 13%? And if they had to draw all those frames out they used an awful lot of energy doing this. Deb


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## COAL REAPER

Cloverdale said:


> I believe this is too many drone frames. I believe the percentage should be around 13%? And if they had to draw all those frames out they used an awful lot of energy doing this. Deb


may be. i kept worker comb in the middle and all frames were drawn already. of the inspections i did, there was always available worker comb to lay in. had they drawn all frames and made a super of honey i would have been impressed.

yes, i have read colonies like to have 10-15% drone comb when grown. does anybody increase this percentage in colonies where you wish to promote drone rearing?


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## Cloverdale

Coal reaper, I’m just curious, do you have a separate yard just for mating?


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## COAL REAPER

Cloverdale said:


> Coal reaper, I’m just curious, do you have a separate yard just for mating?


no, working out of one yard. this drone encouragement of such few hives my not yet be effecting my mating, but i figure it cant hurt. i am happy with the queens reared last year.
i dont sell queens or bees or anything like that. still trying to figure it all out before growing.


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## Cloverdale

Well it couldn’t hurt. I have done the same, buying different strains of queens for the DCA; I figure it’ll help other area beekeepers too with their virgin matings, which in turn would help mine. Sometimes the crosses can get nasty (like the Buckfast). Wouldn’t it be great to know all the drones (traits) the queen mated with? By the way, I was born and raised in NJ before retiring to NY. Jersey girl all the way. Deb


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## COAL REAPER

Cloverdale said:


> By the way, I was born and raised in NJ before retiring to NY. Jersey girl all the way. Deb


ahh, you must have some DTS roots! i grew up in rahway/clark. moved to other side of state to get away from congestion. we used to go to belleayre a lot.


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## Cloverdale

COAL REAPER said:


> ahh, you must have some DTS roots! i grew up in rahway/clark. moved to other side of state to get away from congestion. we used to go to belleayre a lot.


Ok, what does DTS mean? And Belleayre is on the way to where I live; we are about 20 minutes from Andes. A local teacher from our tiny Bee Club does ski patrol there.


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## COAL REAPER

DTS = down the shore


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## Cloverdale

How’d you know? My mother’s line goes back to the battle of monmouth, I can haughtily  say we are DAR’s but too snooty for me. Actually we retired from Pt Pleasant up to NY, everyone asks me why. Like you the congestion got so bad and taxes so high we couldn’t stay. I guess we should get back to the thread eh?


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## Nicksotherhoney

This next week I’m gonna order some Russian and Saskatraz packages. I’d be more than happy to update people as to how they build up and if any contact EFB or AFB.


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## R.Varian

For additional genetics we purchased 30 saskatraz packages last year. April 14 2018 we placed in 10 frame boxes with 3 
drawn comb plus foundation and fed. Had to split 1 that wanted to swarm so now 31. By last week in June they had pulled out 17 frames of foundation and were filling with brood, nectar and pro sweet. We stopped feeding and placed on drawn out supers for the basswood flow which was starting. By the first week of August we pulled 1600 pounds of honey let them have the golden rod honey. Did the first quick check yesterday lost 1 colony, the biggest going into winter which we knew had mites but could not seem to fix with mite strips and OV. This colony my not have been as hygienic as the others seemed to be.We lost 2 queens in other colonies so we gave them eggs and from strong hives. Most of the colonies were still in the bottom boxes or just moving up to the 2nd deep. Soon we will pull the frames of feed so the queen can move up and lay. So far we a pleased with the Saskatraz, see how things go this year.

Rick


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## Cloverdale

recap: bought 5 queens last year (May), 3 swarmed 2 original. The 2 overwintered well (one had CBPV not the fault of the bee but the weather!) but survived as did the ones that swarmed. All produced honey.


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## KevinWI

been wanting to get a hold of Saskatraz...but everywhere sold out of queens...and around here in WI I've never heard of anyone with Saskatraz packages......if anyone knows of anything, shoot me a DM


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## mtnmyke

KevinWI said:


> been wanting to get a hold of Saskatraz...but everywhere sold out of queens...and around here in WI I've never heard of anyone with Saskatraz packages......if anyone knows of anything, shoot me a DM


That's because they're made exclusively by OHB in NorCal. Long way for a package to go. Give them a few weeks after package season and queens will be available again.


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## KevinWI

mtnmyke said:


> That's because they're made exclusively by OHB in NorCal. Long way for a package to go. Give them a few weeks after package season and queens will be available again.


yep...I know that the Sask. project sends breeder queens specific to OHB for open mating...but also know that suppliers all over order large numbers of packages/queens from OHB to sell....just have never run into those suppliers anywhere near here.


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## HONEYGUY1973

KevinWI said:


> yep...I know that the Sask. project sends breeder queens specific to OHB for open mating...but also know that suppliers all over order large numbers of packages/queens from OHB to sell....just have never run into those suppliers anywhere near here.


Lappe’s bee supply has saskatraz queens I had 2 out of 3 overwinter well excellent brood pattern too.


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## KevinWI

HONEYGUY1973 said:


> Lappe’s bee supply has saskatraz queens I had 2 out of 3 overwinter well excellent brood pattern too.


yep. Lappes has no Sask packages and queens are not available until end of May.


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## aran

KevinWI said:


> yep. Lappes has no Sask packages and queens are not available until end of May.


ive ordered 8 queens from Mannlake. Im gonna have to drive a couple hours to pick them up at the end of April.


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## Western

KevinWI said:


> yep. Lappes has no Sask packages and queens are not available until end of May.



I read somewhere they get theirs from OHB? Wish I could recall where I read that tho, could have be internet scribble.


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## Cloverdale

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wrW_04iJ_c

Roger Patterson (he takes care of Dave Cushmans website) speaking on queens, what he has been seeing in his hives since the beginning of this century. He has been keeping bees for 50 yrs. He lives in England and I thought it would be an U.K. problem, but he has found it in the US to; actually here in NY. I am putting this here because of the problems some of us had with the Sas queens and swarming/supersedure.
It’s worth the look. Deb


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## Marcin

HONEYGUY1973 said:


> excellent brood pattern too.


Compared to what? Can you post a picture of saskatraz brood pattern and another queen's pattern from your hives? Interested to see what the difference looks like.


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## COAL REAPER

both my saska hives made it, but this is also the best overwintering year i have ever had. brood pattern is tight. did not do mite shake, but uncapped a few hundred drone cells and only found 1 mite. first pollen was ~3 weeks ago.


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## Nicksotherhoney

It may have been discussed previously or in another post but can you graft from them? Anyone had any luck with making queens from them?


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## roberto487

COAL REAPER said:


> both my saska hives made it, but this is also the best overwintering year i have ever had. brood pattern is tight. did not do mite shake, but uncapped a few hundred drone cells and only found 1 mite. first pollen was ~3 weeks ago.


Did you treat. I had the best overwintering, but I treated diligently last year.


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## roberto487

Marcin said:


> Compared to what? Can you post a picture of saskatraz brood pattern and another queen's pattern from your hives? Interested to see what the difference looks like.


Done you know that is one of the boiler plate statements from any queen breeder. "we breed for temperament, brood pattern and disease/pest resistance." Oh wait, the queen you sold me didn't stand up to any of what you breed them for. "Oh, you must have done something wrong that affect their performance, no warranty, you are SOL"


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## COAL REAPER

roberto487 said:


> Did you treat. I had the best overwintering, but I treated diligently last year.


yes of course.


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## COAL REAPER

Nicksotherhoney said:


> It may have been discussed previously or in another post but can you graft from them? Anyone had any luck with making queens from them?


what we get in the states is saskatraz hybrids actually. the workers of these queens are half canadian and half california whatever due to open mating. they are claimed to get testy when grafted from. rather it is suggested to use their drones in your breeding. those drones are full blood canadian. at least that is how i have come to understand it. somebody please correct me if i mispoke. i will repeat that my sakatraz hive are quite docile. i have mine hived on medium foundationless frames to promote drone rearing.


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## colinanderson

*Newbie - Saskatraz question/observation*

Hi, total newbie here. 

I'm going through the process of getting up to speed and in reading several threads on Saskatraz it appears to me that, to some degree, negative feedback on Saskatraz bees seems to get worse the further south the posters are coming from.

Does it make sense that, perhaps, the bees are better suited to more northerly climates or possibly require a harsher winter to help with disease resistance?


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## KevinWI

*Re: Newbie - Saskatraz question/observation*



colinanderson said:


> Hi, total newbie here.
> 
> 
> 
> Does it make sense that, perhaps, the [Saskatraz] bees are better suited to more northerly climates or possibly require a harsher winter to help with disease resistance?


It is a reasonable assumption......the same that Italians may not be ideally suited to Northern climates/winters.


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## aran

*Re: Newbie - Saskatraz question/observation*



colinanderson said:


> Hi, total newbie here.
> 
> I'm going through the process of getting up to speed and in reading several threads on Saskatraz it appears to me that, to some degree, negative feedback on Saskatraz bees seems to get worse the further south the posters are coming from.
> 
> Does it make sense that, perhaps, the bees are better suited to more northerly climates or possibly require a harsher winter to help with disease resistance?


im picking up 8 saskatraz queens this weekend. We will see how they do in upstate NY.


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## Cloverdale

*Re: Newbie - Saskatraz question/observation*

I had two Sas queens over-winter quite well here, I have to split one already; the colony has 2 deeps and a medium packed full just added another super. I am waiting on a few more drones getting out there so maybe in a week or two. Out of 5 last year 3 swarmed within a few months. These two I am pleased with.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc

*Re: Newbie - Saskatraz question/observation*



colinanderson said:


> Hi, total newbie here.
> 
> I'm going through the process of getting up to speed and in reading several threads on Saskatraz it appears to me that, to some degree, negative feedback on Saskatraz bees seems to get worse the further south the posters are coming from.
> 
> Does it make sense that, perhaps, the bees are better suited to more northerly climates or possibly require a harsher winter to help with disease resistance?


Not so sure. I know of many people in northern climates that have not had good luck with them so far at all...


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## colinanderson

*Re: Newbie - Saskatraz question/observation*



KevinWI said:


> It is a reasonable assumption......the same that Italians may not be ideally suited to Northern climates/winters.


It's worth mentioning for those are unfamiliar with the University in Saskatoon that they have consistently been successful (ie>70 years) in adapting plants and animals to the weather of the Western Canadian Prairies. So, I think it would be safe to say that the Bee was likely selected for its suitability to this climate.


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## Cloverdale

*Re: Newbie - Saskatraz question/observation*

I agree with you Colinanderson; there was another thread on Sas queens last year where there were problems with some of them, but the queens weren’t directly from Canada, most people bought them from Mann Lake or Olivarez in CA, which breed their own. A man in my Club bought 6 from Mann L and did great with them and they overwintered well as my two did. But, they weren’t as varroa tolerant as we expected but it could just be our area here. Huge influx of mites in the Fall.


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## Nicksotherhoney

Due to flooding and bad weather in California I won’t get my package of saskatraz till tomorrow afternoon. How’s everybody’s else’s saskatraz doing?


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## aran

Nicksotherhoney said:


> Due to flooding and bad weather in California I won’t get my package of saskatraz till tomorrow afternoon. How’s everybody’s else’s saskatraz doing?


i installed 8 from Mannlake this past weekend. They are going gang busters. Granted i gave them all a 10F deep full of built comb, 1 frame of capped and 1 uncapped brood frame, and one honey/pollen frame.
I checked them last night and 5 of them were given second deeps because the queens have laid up 2 more frames completely with eggs.
Im very impressed so far with how calm the queens are on the frames and the laying patterns.


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## OLD KENTUCKY

johno said:


> I got in 4 Saskatraz queens this spring and none of them have swarmed so far, one of the hives had very runny bees which I was not too happy about but the other 3 are fine. One of them produced a good crop of honey during this years 4 week flow and by the looks of the hive I could take another super so they would have produced about 100 lbs of honey where I am lucky to average 50 lbs a year in my area. I am interested to see how they all do next season.
> Johno


What do you mean when you say, "They were very runny." Thanks, Old Kentucky


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## mtnmyke

It means they run around the frames quickly instead of remaining calm and collected, as if you aren't even there. Makes it hard to handle runny bees and/or spot the queen.


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## KevinWI

It took me awhile to realize this, but Saskatraz is a cross between Italian and Carniolan....


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## crofter

KevinWI said:


> It took me awhile to realize this, but Saskatraz is a cross between Italian and Carniolan....


Kevin; I think maybe you left some other main ingredients out of that soup! Some people have also mentioned bull dog bit_ch and barbwire fence. No personal experience with them though, but my bees from Tibor Szabo near Guelph are described as 75/25 Carni / Itia. and they sure are not runny, drippy, or snappy.


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## johno

crofter said:


> Kevin; I think maybe you left some other main ingredients out of that soup! Some people have also mentioned bull dog bit_ch and barbwire fence. No personal experience with them though, but my bees from Tibor Szabo near Guelph are described as 75/25 Carni / Itia. and they sure are not runny, drippy, or snappy.


As with all open mated queens there is no control of drones, although the drone fields may be set around the mating yards there is no guarantee that other drones will not be present. Also when grafting takes place many larvae are grafted yet are the larvae selected from the same drones, and this can make a difference between queens raised from those grafts. Many times you will find good queens mediocre queens and poor queens from the same grafts when these queens raise their host colonies.


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## GregB

KevinWI said:


> cross between Italian and Carniolan....


As are most bees in the US.
Unsure how the Saska bees are really identifiable.


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## bushpilot

I've tried Saskatraz, Italians, and Carniolians. They are all bees. The only significant trait that I noted different about the Saskatraz is that they really liked building burr comb. 

For now, I think I will continue with my own mutt line.


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## mtnmyke

KevinWI said:


> It took me awhile to realize this, but Saskatraz is a cross between Italian and Carniolan....





bushpilot said:


> I've tried Saskatraz, Italians, and Carniolians. They are all bees. The only significant trait that I noted different about the Saskatraz is that they really liked building burr comb.
> 
> For now, I think I will continue with my own mutt line.


Best way to go! Since beekeeping is such a 'local' thing - what works in your area may not work in someone else's. Breeding your best stock in your own area will always get you the best queen IMO.


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## rdimanin

mtnmyke said:


> Best way to go! Since beekeeping is such a 'local' thing - what works in your area may not work in someone else's. Breeding your best stock in your own area will always get you the best queen IMO.


You're right. I am in SE Michigan & I had 4 Saskatraz queens last year, real high mite counts despite treatment & all 4 are now deadouts. I noticed on my last inspection in October that all 4 had a lot of drone brood still in the hives, probably a sign of poor mating. I do not recommend the OHB Sastatraz queens & I'll stick to grafting my own from my mutt stock.


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## JWPalmer

bushpilot said:


> For now, I think I will continue with my own mutt line.


 I believe a great many experienced beekeepers are happy with the mutts they currently have. Being a new beekeeper and setting your sights on a particular strain that you have read about on the internet is bound to result in disappointment. New beeks should buy bees from a local beekeeper and learn to keep bees first. Then if they want to experiment with other strains, great.


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## COAL REAPER

i ahve said this before, read up on the saskatraz project. what we get in the US is saskatraz hybrids. OHB grafts from pure saskatraz breeder queens (lots of paperwork to get over the border from canadia) and open mates them. saskatraz breeder queens are a mix of russian, buckfast, and carniolan. when grafted, thier daughters mate with the typical carniolan/italian bees present in the california foothills. the drones of saskatraz hybrids are pure saskatraz. they have done well in drone mother colonies for me, their intended purpose when incorporated into a breeding program. grafting from saskatraz hybrids is not consistent due to the open mating in california. i keep the saskatraz hybrid lines separate from my local overwintered colonies. saskatraz hybrids produce all my drones and i do not let the queens i graft from have ANY drone comb. i averaged 110#s harvest in my production colonies last year. new jersey state average is 50-60. this year one deadout so far and it was a colony headed by a saskatraz hybrid queen that had repeated high mite drop when OAVed november and december. so yes, all of them are not shining stars.


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