# Have a Few Questions About Commercial Beekeeping



## WA Bees (May 20, 2016)

Hello,

I am looking at getting into commercial beekeeping as a secondary source of income. Many long nights of research later and I feel like I have a grasp on the basics of beekeeping and have also found that people's reports on the profitability of beekeeping have been the most unpredictable information. After looking further into the beekeeping business it seems that a properly managed apiary can produce sustainable profits. I see that the most common form of profit loss comes from the loss of colonies, mainly due to weak hives. So my main focus at first will be on building strong hives that can over-winter without any problems, but I will also spend a significant amount of time focusing on other areas as well.

I have a few questions about commercial beekeeping and what to expect. All the research in the world cannot makeup for hands on experience and I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to hear from some experienced keepers on some obstacles I may encounter and how to overcome them. I will list my goals and the primary questions I have, but any information is greatly appreciated.

My 5 Year Goal:

- Secure an investment into the business that will cover all the costs of setting up 100 bee hives

- At the end of year two have 100 bee hives built, while putting as many to use as possible

- Take the summers to contract out hives to orchards, while also harvesting the honey and splitting the hives to sell bee packages thereafter

- Hire someone to help me maintain the beehives while I attend school


Here are some of the questions I have, but any advice is appreciated:

*What is the most efficient and least costly way to attain bees for a starting beekeeper (Goal is 100 beehives)? I have three beehives right now that I will be able to split next summer, but this puts me short of my goal.

On average, how many locations are you able to take bee hives to each season for pollination services?

In a routine check, what is the average amount of time you spend checking one hive?

What are some methods you've used in strengthening colonies for over-wintering?

In order to produce the most honey, while also being able to move the beehives to orchards for pollination, what would you recommend as the best hive set up and hive management methods?

What can I expect the first couple years of keeping bees?

Any other advice is greatly appreciated

*


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Wow, I will take a stab at this.. I will only answer what I perceive that I feel I can rightly answer, though.

Firstly, I understand your ambition! When I got the lust for bees, I wanted to see how I could make money from it, too! It is addictive for me, to say the least! But what you initially stated, cannot ring any truer for those of us in the craft of less than I would probably say at least 5 years experience. Some people get a nack for it and do extremely well and are well off enough to make something from it very quickly, and in less than that 5 year timeframe.

I would say that 5 years into beekeeping, you can definitely have 100 hives or more. This is all contingent upon your comprehension, skillset and management practices. If you have the know how to manage your time and money well and also possible have a very well paying job to get you going you can obtain that goal.

The idea of paying someone else to maintain your hives while you are in school, IMO, is a stretch. You are more than likely going to face difficulties there as outlining what they need to do vs what you will compensate them. You will more than likely end up being the loser on that end of the deal.

Getting bees the easiest way is through swarms and cutouts. But realistically, I dunno how frequent that actually occurs in our neck of the woods. While I know its possible for this to occur, there is stiff competition for bees and if you look on CL, its riddled with people offering to pay people for the bees. Therefore, the next practical thing is to buy from people who do not want to keep bees anymore and/or have a surplus, etc. Then it comes down to regular retail sales of nucs/packages and your own splits.

IMO, an inspection of a hive is unique. Some require more thorough lookovers than others. Its not all cookie cutter stuff. But when you learn to know what to look for, if you can stop yourself from dilly-dallying in a hive and not be so mesmerized by the fascination of bees, an inspection can go quickly.

Your first year is going to be a steep learning curve if you do not have a mentor. Being that you are in Spokane, you should be registered and have gone through the beekeeping course and possibly in the INWBA.

Focus on good hive husbandry, understanding the basics and keeping a hive strong. There is ALOT to learn, you are going to need this first year to really prove to yourself if you are really committed to the idea of beekeeping for an income.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

I would also add that you need to talk to people, espy people who are doing what you want to do on the scale you are considering. (Lauri Miller comes to mind.) But mostly it is about getting your hands in the boxes and learning. Books/websites are great BUT this is one endeavor that really takes a hands-on education.

JMO

Rusty


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

WA Bees: How many hives are you running right now? Do you have the infrastructure to support a 100 hive operation? As for paying someone- I would wait until I was done with school.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

You face a steep learning curve on 2 fronts. First is learning to keep bees. It's very simple, yet incredibly complicated. Just when you think you have them figured out, they pull a new trick on you. Second, learning the Bee Business. Ditto, simple yet complicated. Fortunately, you can learn both in manageable bites. 

A friend of mine decided to do almost exactly what you plan to do, 3 years ago. He insisted starting out big. He started with 100 nucs. He has the land, the countryside, the bloom varieties and reasonable weather, and a friend who is a professional bee expert in California almond business and a business plan. 
Half of his colonies were dead before winter and all but 12 of his colonies were dead by spring.

The next year, he bought a few dozen more colonies. All but 2 of those died by this spring. This year he has learned the error of his ways and is focusing on learning to help the bees survive winter and to increase his hive count by using his own resources, rather than buying replacements for his deadouts. He is going back to basics and focusing on the well-being of the bees over profit. I expect a much better financial year for him this year.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Stop going to school and get a really good job to support your beekeeping habit - you will need it. 2nd is boxes of comb - watch what you buy as it may be someone else's culls. This is one of the biggest holdups of new beekeepers.


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## WA Bees (May 20, 2016)

Thanks for all the advice so far, I appreciate hearing from people with experience. I have three hives this year, which will be good practice and will also attend some classes throughout the year to prepare for next summer. I have an 80 acre plot of land in rural WA where the bees are going to go. The business side of the apiary won't be a problem as I have extensive experience creating and managing businesses on my own, creating businesses that have had around $100,000 in total sales, while only starting with $500 or $600. The beekeeping portion will be the most difficult to learn.


What are the honey yields like for beekeepers who contract their beehives out to multiple honey-rich crops every season? My goal is to create a network of a couple different orchards where I will contract my beehives out to every season, harvest the honey after, and then split the bees into Nucs in order to sell the next season (or possibly that same season, do people buy bees that late in the game?)


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

What orchards produce honey while pollinated? I'm a commercial beekeeper in your area. I have many orchards covered out there. We make honey in the sticks where nothing agricultural is around except alfalfa, which doesn't need bees unless for seed. I recommend working for a commercial beekeeper. No I am not hiring anyone atm. Beekeeping is very competitive in E WA.


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## WA Bees (May 20, 2016)

Yes I am wondering which ones are the best for producing honey in the Pacific Northwest and WA (Ex. Clover fields, Aster).


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Sounds like you dont know much about the area. Snowberry and alfalfa are what make honey. No such thing as wild clover fields in EWA.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

No one will pay you to put bees out. You will need to pay them for rent...


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## WA Bees (May 20, 2016)

RAK said:


> Sounds like you dont know much about the area. Snowberry and alfalfa are what make honey. No such thing as wild clover fields in EWA.


In general Clover Fields and Aster are some of the best honey crops in North America.



RAK said:


> No one will pay you to put bees out. You will need to pay them for rent...


I'm sorry but that is extremely misleading, you need to check up on your facts before you start giving out advice. I don't think you know what competitive is! Unless you've been in a market where 200+ people are advertising the same services in the same area as you are and are waiting by to steal your customers when they inquire about an order. Having to be available 24/7 the moment new customers place an order or else they will go to someone else. I've been in very competitive markets and built online and physical businesses all my life, if a market wasn't competitive then that would be to easy 


I've called and talked to some commercial beekeepers and they have given me good advice on honey production and varroa mites. I appreciate hearing from experienced beekeepers so any other advice is warmly welcomed.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

WA Bees: You have a lot to learn- as I mentioned to you in a private message- your starting down a rough road. You may have started all kinds of businesses. But if you can't keep bees alive and don't know the basic nectar sources in your area, there is a problem. Clover and Aster may be great nectar sources, but they don't do you much good if they are not in your area. Good advice and practical application are two very different animals in beekeeping. My advice- expand slowly and find a good mentor. Thick skin goes a long ways in beekeeping. RAK was giving you good advice from a Commercial Beekeeper in your area. I personally don't know anyone that will pay you to place hives on there property, so you can collect honey. There are pollination contracts which are different then what you are talking about.


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

You asked.sounds like Rak was just giving you advise.don't ask if you don't want.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

There are plenty of threads here on BeeSource that address the very same questions you've asked and many were started by folks with a similar 'dream'.
Spend some time during those long nights of research using the search feature here.
FWIW, master the bees first, and that won't be easy. Until then, forget about everything else.
RAK does what you are dreaming of, give him the respect his experience deserves.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

WA Bees said:


> What are the honey yields like for beekeepers who contract their beehives out to multiple honey-rich crops every season? My goal is to create a network of a couple different orchards where I will contract my beehives out to every season, harvest the honey after, and then split the bees into Nucs in order to sell the next season (or possibly that same season, do people buy bees that late in the game?)


What "orchards" are you talking about. Or do you mean fields as well? If you think it's easy as just moving some bees around collecting a ton of honey and splitting them when all is said and done, you're quite delusional. Perhaps WA is different than down here, but I'm feeding already, and most 'orchards' don't produce much honey except citrus comes to mind. The only 'honey' producing crops down here in general are sunflowers but you have to chase the bloom if you want to see any surplus or you're better off leaving it on the hives for late summer and fall dearth around here.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Don't be too hard on him/her... Ambition is a good thing, but it can be difficult to know what you don't know, especially in a new area.

WA Bees, you have received some sound advice here, and perhaps the best advice is to get experience from those who are doing what you are doing. Be receptive as there is no need to reinvent the wheel. Once you have a good understanding, then you will be able to make adjustments/improvements to suit your needs.

Best of luck to you!


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

WA Bees said:


> I don't .......................


Oh boy.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WA Bees said:


> I've been in very competitive markets and built online and physical businesses all my life, if a market wasn't competitive then that would be to easy
> 
> 
> I've called and talked to some commercial beekeepers and they have given me good advice on honey production and varroa mites. I appreciate hearing from experienced beekeepers so any other advice is warmly welcomed.


All your life? You're 21 years old for God's sake. Check RAK's Profile. I think you need to back off some and take what is being given you as sage advice.


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## Woodside (Aug 10, 2010)

What is the most efficient and least costly way to attain bees for a starting beekeeper (Goal is 100 beehives)? I have three beehives right now that I will be able to split next summer, but this puts me short of my goal.

Id say buying brood frames mid march (california) and using a queen cell, while offering your help to another beek so you can hitch a ride down there.

On average, how many locations are you able to take bee hives to each season for pollination services?

Really this depends... almonds feb 1st, apples around april 1st, cranberries/blueberries june/july? However Bees need to be checked on and fed heavily to promote growth. When they are out in the apples and cranberries they do no gain weight and often lose it.

In a routine check, what is the average amount of time you spend checking one hive?

1 min? I usually make sure queen is good in may, once more in june. This requires pulling out middle frame and checking for brood. Sometimes if brood is spotty and the hive seems to have adequate feed/pollen then the queen will be found and destroyed which requires more time.

What are some methods you've used in strengthening colonies for over-wintering?

I think some beeks would not be willing to share their secrets... but the main thing is to keep mites down all year. Your bees will die during winter if your have 5% or greater mites..

In order to produce the most honey, while also being able to move the beehives to orchards for pollination, what would you recommend as the best hive set up and hive management methods?

I am not sure when the honey season for WA is.. but it is very possible that pollinating will overlap. I would rather get 1 or 2 pollinations and a honey crop over three pollinations and starved bees. I would recommend double deeps. This is a wide used standard and double require less attention. I would also think that in-hive feeders would be good. Spring splits are bread and butter.. you should do what you like to do.

What can I expect the first couple years of keeping bees?

negative to little profit and dead bees.

Any other advice is greatly appreciated

Main job of beekeeping is to turn sugar supplement into bees. Equipment wise all you need is a small tank and feeder. If you plan on doing almond pollination all on your own you will need at least a pickup, good back, and trailer. 
I used to operate 700 hives with just a half ton and a 20' flatbed ball hitch trailer... rented a forklift
also.. it is not practical to hire anyone at all for any length of time vs 100 hives. This will require one day/week. If you are away, and you have a retired guy that lives close to feed your bees when they need it that would work.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

I think that if your able to grow a business from a few hundred to 6 figures, then don't waste your time beekeeping.

Unless you're just the determined. Good luck!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

hex0rz said:


> I think that if your able to grow a business from a few hundred to 6 figures, then don't waste your time beekeeping.
> 
> Unless you're just the determined. Good luck!


:thumbsup:


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have the same goal starting 4 years ago. built up to nearly 60 colonies and am now back to 7. I have found that money can be made but you have to learn where the opportunities are. for me it is a bit in honey sales. but largely in nuc, queen or colony sales. Second is income from cut outs.


What is the most efficient and least costly way to attain bees for a starting beekeeper (Goal is 100 beehives)? I have three beehives right now that I will be able to split next summer, but this puts me short of my goal.
I would say packages. Swarm capture is the most cost effective. cut outs are the least effective in regards to both cost and especially time. Nucs are the most efficient as far as colony quality but for both time and cost efficiency I would say packages. Some would argue that with the rate of losses in packages you actually get the same number of colonies by buying nucs and they are better than with buying packages. Personally I go with nucs if I want to buy bees. my entire apiary is made up of swarms and cut outs though. I have time and less money.

On average, how many locations are you able to take bee hives to each season for pollination services?
I don't do pollination yet but only have one in my sites.

In a routine check, what is the average amount of time you spend checking one hive?
Maybe one hour per year per hive if I am checking on them as I should. that is about 6 inspections of about 10 minutes each. Mostly in the spring between swarm season and honey production. once honey production starts bees are left alone for the most part.


What are some methods you've used in strengthening colonies for over-wintering?
What I have done for 3 hives is much different than what I did for nearly 60. Harvesting honey seems to me to be hard on the colonies well being. We have a late flow here that is primarily relied on to get the bees ready for winter. last year it failed us pretty well. That and colonies that simply where to weak from overly aggressive attempts at growth. I could afford to experiment, did and lost. 

In order to produce the most honey, while also being able to move the beehives to orchards for pollination, what would you recommend as the best hive set up and hive management methods?
I found for the time effort and investment honey even at retail prices is not making much money. Cut outs and swarm captures combined with the sales of colonies or nucs is the best money maker for us. I don't do pollination contracts yet. That is coming up in the next couple of years though. I don't expect to get honey with bees on contract. maybe splits to produce nucs from. One thing that is starting to emerge from the mist for me is that you can have bees do one job. but I have not found a way to get them to produce honey then produce splits and produce queens etc etc etc. At best I can describe it as schedules conflict. By the time you are finished pollination contracts the window to make splits will be closed for example. If you pause to make the splits they are not strong enough for contracts. Colonies we keep to produce honey can be split right after harvest and be ready for next year. but so far they are not really ready for almond pollination. now keep in mind that we split aggressively and colonies failed to thrive. So far I have not reliably been able to produce colonies ready for almonds so I don't pursue contracts. We will see what this year reveals. This is the start of my 5th year. and I clearly see I have a lot to learn about the timing of what I am trying to achieve. I still believe the opportunities are there. but they come and go so quickly that you have to have the ability to anticipate them accurately and be prepared when they present themselves. That is experience, and nothing replaces it.

What can I expect the first couple years of keeping bees? 
Confusion and more confusion. about the time you think you have something figured out and can manage it. it all changes. To me the single greatest key is to understand swarming and it's prevention. Combined with how to keep a colony thriving and building even though you disrupted swarming. Learn not only the general phases of the bees year. but also learn the subtleties of each phase. There is a build up period. a swarm or reproduction period. a honey production period and a prep for winter period. There are windows of opportunity in each of these periods. but they are short and must be taken advantage of as they appear. One example of this is my attempts to get mated queens. it seemed for a week or so even emergence rates of cells was poor. then suddenly every cell we had was successful. transferred these queens to mating nucs and for a while had very poor mating success. then a two week window that queens seem to have emerged mated. everything worked. then it vanished as fast as it had started. In the midst of it all I was continually asking myself. So what do I have to be watching for to know mating success rate should be good? I still don't know. I can predict swarming in my area like I fired the starting gun. and I know high success rate for mating must be at a peak during that time. Or so you would think. I have found that the blue jays are honing there skills at picking off queens about that time also. So an off time that still provides adequate drone populations and catches the jays unaware actually seems to work the best. Just one realistic example of some details concerning one simple aspect of beekeeping. and beekeeping is loaded with them.

One of the things that does not always set right with me. is the question "What is the best"? In large I have found that many things determine what is best for me. my skills, my resources, my goals and what works in my area all play a part. Across the board probably the bees beekeeper in my opinion would be Micheal Palmer. I have spent hours reading what he has to say about beekeeping. I have spent many more hours pouring over minute details concerning specific methods. I have even been blessed with his personal time replying to me on some of his ideas. And yet still my attempts to follow his methods have been tremendously expensive. That is because I have to learn to make his methods work for me. The parts that work work in grand style. likewise those parts that don't fail in grand style as well. moderation I thin is in order here. attempt different things but always remember. attempts do not equal mastery. venture around accordingly. Simply put. my skill does not match Micheal's wisdom.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

WA Bees said:


> I'm sorry but that is extremely misleading, you need to check up on your facts before you start giving out advice. I don't think you know what competitive is! Unless you've been in a market where 200+ people are advertising the same services in the same area as you are and are waiting by to steal your customers when they inquire about an order. Having to be available 24/7 the moment new customers place an order or else they will go to someone else. I've been in very competitive markets and built online and physical businesses all my life, if a market wasn't competitive then that would be to easy


Maybe it's just me, but red flags go up when newbees immediately start throwing around the "C" word (competition) before they even get started.
And PLEASE; please do not commence with all of the lectures about capitalism etc..... I am aware of all of that.

This is beekeeping.
You are wanting to enter into an agricultural community.
This is evident by the fact that you are here asking advice from your fellow beekeepers.
In my experience, working together and networking is a great aspect of commercial beekeeping, not pushing and shoving.
Yes, competition exists. If I tried to place my hives in almonds for $1000.00 per hive the grower would look for $180.00 hives.
But the "c" word is my last thought, not my first.
I recommend that you attend bee meetings, state conferences and field days.
Get to know your fellow beekeepers and establish trust in that community.

You don't want to be on the outside looking in or you'll never make it.
Best of luck!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Obviously we have an exceptionally advanced beginner. Usually it takes someone two years before they know everything.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Obviously we have an exceptionally advanced beginner. Usually it takes some one two years before they know everything.


...let's not get carried away now. He's just ****y.  if nothing else maybe it Will be a humbling experience.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I know, hex. I thought it was a bit harsh. But some times one has to be shown who they are so they can adjust their attitude.

Hmmm, am I talking to myself again?

WABees, there is a lot to learn. It's a life long process. Get back to us in 5 years and tell us how you did what you did, if you do anything like what you hope to do.

I remember getting all sorts of advice from other beekeepers who had been keeping bees decades longer than I, back before internet beekeeping was even thought of. One of my friends used to say, "Why don't you ever do what I tell you you should do?" My reply was, "You are not the only one telling me what I should do. I listen to what you and Jon and others say and then I try to figure out what suits me the best. What makes sense to me and the way I work." "You'll never be a beekeeper.", he said.

Ten years later I reminded him of that and he agreed that he was wrong. It's just that statistically his blatant statement had a greater chance of being true than not. "Many are able, fewer of them capable."

So, we will see. We will see what we will see. Maybe you are the exception.


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## AdamBeal (Aug 28, 2013)

3 years ago I started with thought of becoming a sideliner and making some money. I currently have 8 hives well below what I thought I would be at now. I can tell you my perspective 3 years ago was this, I did some math and thought wow I can build a box and put bees in it for roughly $200-$250 and then get x pounds of honey every year after that which I sell and it is "easy" money. I was kind of thinking it was like an investment where you drop $250 in and make a $500 return every year. The spreadsheet didn't lie but I was in for a hard lesson.

I was right in that I now have many supers of honey to pull now off my hives right now (3 years later). What I didn't account for was the amount of labor I had to put in managing these hives, building wooden ware, feeding etc. This spring I put a huge amount of very hard work in to keep this small number of hives from swarming. I am sure commercial guys can scale this work and would laugh at that but it obviously takes years of experience and working with other commercial beekeepers to learn this. Looking back now and factoring in the work I have had to do to collect this "profit" I can see that I am pretty much just working a part time side job but only getting paid about $3 an hour to do it. I probably would have been better off working at McDonalds money wise but hey it has been fun and something I wanted to do at least. Next year (year 4) for me I will be up to 12 hives and hopefully learned to do things more efficiently. I would love to get up to $5 an hour at my labor intensive beekeeping side job.

WAbeekeeper I am not saying you are like me. You have 3 hives now so that is very good that you are getting some experience at a smaller scale. You may greatly benefit I bet from working with a commercial or larger sideliner for a while. Also build up slowly and try to let the bees or your regular job pay for the expansion. Be careful about securing an investment as to not get into debt or risk losing someone elses money. The one good thing about beekeeping is it is pretty easy to split hives and scale up while learning more slowly. Try expanding to 15 hives first then 25 see what it is like at that level a year then move up. You will probably be more successful doing it that way and you will gain a lot of experience. If it were me and I was going to college I would keep the number of hives down to a level that I could still manage myself while attending classes. Good luck to you brother!


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## yousowise (Apr 14, 2011)

I kept a couple hives for a year or two and 5 years ago decided to grow with a goal to have enough to justify a trip to the almonds. I bought 10 nucs and thought I could split from that and have 100+ in 2-3 years, by that November all had died but one. I decided not to spend another dime on bees until I figured out how to keep them alive. Since then I have grown through splits and a few swarms to about 70 if all of my recently placed virgin queens come back mated. I have bought a few queens over the years,but no packages or nucs. I am hoping to finally have enough this winter to meet my goal and send some south. My advice echoes that of others, focus on learning how to keep your bees healthy, and grow slowly. If they're all dead you can't compete with anyone regardless of how great a competitor you think you are.


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## WA Bees (May 20, 2016)

Just received my first three packages of bees in the mail and installed them yesterday. 9 days to get here and they were shipped priority. Have to file a claim on one as there were 2in dead bees in the bottom. Made a hole in the sugar candy to quick release the queen as the bees had been with her already for 8+ days. All hives looking good so far with bees on most frames.


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

So does that mean you have 3 or 6 hives now? How fast do you want to expand? Do you want to expand your colonies mostly from splits? How many splits (if any) are you planning on making this year (and the next years)?
Have you ever wintered any hives (and at what success)?
Are you gonna be feeding? (probably, if you want quick increase)


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

You just received your packages?? :s Good Luck :thumbsup:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If you have a goal then work on it. Over time you will
gain some beekeeping experience for your expansion operation later on.
If you have the resource then hire someone to work for you then you can learn
something along the way too. On my 4th years now, going at a snail pace trying to
expand my apiary.

"I see that the most common form of profit loss comes from the loss of colonies, mainly due to weak hives. So my main focus at first will be on building strong hives that can over-winter without any problems, but I will also spend a significant amount of time focusing on other areas as well."

I think this statement is partially correct. The mites are your worst enemy not a weak hive although a mite infested colony can weaken the hive severely or crashing it too. In order to build the strong hives you need to control the mites first. There are many methods in doing so. That you need to learn too unless you're going the tf route like I want to someday. So what is your method of mite control?


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Powdered sugar!!


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Often new guys think they know it all. Skip past that and admit you know nothing. It will save you lots. In this job I went from knowing it all to thinking I don't know much! Lol. And we have the most hives we ever made this year. Good luck on this adventure!!


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Must be the producers fault,with dead Bees in the bottom of the packages. good luck.its only June.😞


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

WA Bees said:


> I have an 80 acre plot of land in rural WA where the bees are going to go.


Where? Is it in eastern Washington area?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

And what do you plan to grow on your 80 acre for
the bees during the summer dearth there?


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## Allister (Jun 6, 2016)

beepro said:


> And what do you plan to grow on your 80 acre for
> the bees during the summer dearth there?


What is the minimum entrance level for commercial beekeeping; 400 hives? And how difficult is it to find sites as a rule?


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## WA Bees (May 20, 2016)

m0dem said:


> Where? Is it in eastern Washington area?


It's out in a rural area with no developed areas for 20+ miles on the North Eastern side of of the state


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

WA Bees said:


> It's out in a rural area with no developed areas for 20+ miles on the North Eastern side of of the state


Stevens county?
I'm in Grant.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Rural? Sounds like the bears are looking forward to taste your hives.


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## WA Bees (May 20, 2016)

Yeah it's around that location. Three ponds right next to my hive location. And I'm more worried about the ants getting into my hives. Woke up to them getting into the top feeders. Probably will have to move them to the location I first intended, few acres of flat land right above the pond. Right out in the sun.


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## WA Bees (May 20, 2016)

I've read about the idea of feeding bees syrup throughout the season to promote strong hives, but I've heard many experienced people saying that feeding is overrated and should only be done done before the winter season or if a hive is struggling. I decided not to feed my hives, but I have fed one of them (the one with the almost 3in dead bees) a little bit. 

I also am planning to use an oxalic acid vaporizer to control varroa mites. What do you think about this?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

m0dem said:


> Where? Is it in eastern Washington area?


His location says Spokane. But I didn't see any hives when I drove through there last week.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Some Commercial Beekeepers from WA take their bees to MT for the Summer to take advantage of the three or four cuttings/bloomings of alfalfa.

WA, you could do yourself a big favor and take the online beekeeping course offered by The University of Montana. I spent almost two hours with Jerry Bromenshenk and two others looking at what their course offers and how they do their teaching.

When I decided to learn how to keep bees so I could make a living, I tested my own resolve by taking a two year course in beekeeping at OSU/ATI, and got a degree. Maybe you should consider doing the same thing, only under The Master Beekeeper Certificate from UM. It looks like a really well designed, well taught, comprehensive program. There is a lot to learn and a lot to know if this really is your life's work.

Many are willing, fewer able. Good luck.


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

WA Bees said:


> I've read about the idea of feeding bees syrup throughout the season to promote strong hives, but I've heard many experienced people saying that feeding is overrated and should only be done done before the winter season or if a hive is struggling. I decided not to feed my hives, but I have fed one of them (the one with the almost 3in dead bees) a little bit.


I've heard the best time to feed is spring, if you want to build them up *before* (instead of their natural instinct to build up on the flow) the flow. If you feed before winter, you might overpopulate your hive and have unnecessary mouths to feed. I don't know, that's just what I've heard.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Feeding also depends on what you want to do with the bees. If you want to make splits and have them draw comb, then you should feed to help stimulate them. Not to say this means you give them unlimited feed, but with a little experimentation you can probably get a good idea of how much to feed and how frequently to get them to optimal conditions in combination with any available natural forage. If it's just to keep them from starving out, you just have to judge how much to feed so they can have a few frames of open 'nectar' and determine how long it will last them, and then in the fall you will want to get them to winter weight.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Seems like WA has enuf on his hands getting going without going into too many other things. Maybe not.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> His location says Spokane. But I didn't see any hives when I drove through there last week.


Not many hives seen off of I90 but go a bit north and this state is overloaded with bees. Every few miles theres a beeyard.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

RAK said:


> Not many hives seen off of I90 but go a bit north and this state is overloaded with bees. Every few miles theres a beeyard.


Yea, I can even think of two yards I see everytime I take Trent into Spokane.


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## WA Bees (May 20, 2016)

What are some good businesses to buy bulk beehives from?

I found this site that looks pretty cheap for supers and brood chambers

http://blisshoney.com/boxes/

Does this look like a good deal? And I will still have to buy the top and bottom boards if I do that.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Best bang for the buck is after almond bees and IMO - this is why - they finish almonds loaded - a lot of the package boys get them - break out 2 x #3 packages and still have a good double to make a honey crop with. Also shaking the 2 packages from them helps with swarm control. (and the 130-165$ for the packages don't hurt either) You being from WA - you can shoot down the coast with a low boy trailer - load up 50 and get back home with them. Also you might find someone going to your state to pollinate apples that for a fee may bring them to ya - ABJ has a lot in it


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## WA Bees (May 20, 2016)

I'm confused on why people report small profits a lot of the time as I've put the numbers together and it seems like one can make a decent profit keeping bees. 

Take 10 hives for example

For simplicity's sake, I'll use approximate numbers. 

Honey produced in each hive - 60 lbs (60 x 10 x $5/Lb) = $3000

Splitting each hive once and selling the bee packages (10 x $125) = $1250

Renting out your hives to one orchard (10 x $80) = $800

Total profit in one year: $5050 for 10 hives

Say you use the best prevention methods for colony loss and you're in a good location with no pesticides:

2 hives out of every 10 die (.2 x 5050) = - $1,010

Costs of honey bottling, transportation, feed, and marketing: $900

$5050 - $1,910 = $3,140 per year for managing 10 hives

Does this look reasonable?


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

If you ran a business that sold 100k worth of goods by starting with 500 dollars, even with your math you must be thinking it may be better to stick with what you know. Right? Why would you want to make 3k for all that hassle??? But if you have a passion for bees, then by all means go for it! Good luck


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

Numbers look really good on paper- it's making those numbers reality. Things may look reasonable, but is it practical? Keep you're bees alive for a full year and see where your at. There's a lot more to this then basic math calculations.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Ok, how many hours you put in to make that 3 grand? What bout extraction equipment. How much it cost to get to 10 hives? What about cost for feeding?


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## WA Bees (May 20, 2016)

babybee said:


> If you ran a business that sold 100k worth of goods by starting with 500 dollars, even with your math you must be thinking it may be better to stick with what you know. Right? Why would you want to make 3k for all that hassle??? But if you have a passion for bees, then by all means go for it! Good luck


The problem was it required being available 24/7 (digital currencies, eBay sales, hosting competitions) and the markets became very saturated and also having to deal with the Chinese paying workers $4/hr in competition. Its definitely a different lifestyle that wears on your after awhile.



MTN-Bees said:


> Numbers look really good on paper- it's making those numbers reality. Things may look reasonable, but is it practical? Keep you're bees alive for a full year and see where your at. There's a lot more to this then basic math calculations.


I will try, thanks! Right now two of my hives almost have a whole frame of comb drawn out. The third isn't doing to well, in progress of filing a claim with the post office as all three took about 2 weeks shipped priority with dead bees piled up in all of them.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

My best advice is find a really good mentor. Things I didn't see were treating your bees. Transportation for your hives. Drawing out new supers, so less honey. Losing two hives, loss of honey, pollination fees, and splits. I'm not sure who is going to rent 10 hives. The more hives you have to more support and infrastructure you need. And that gets costly. Then the delays- queens don't get delivered on time or weeks later, woodenware delays, the building permit system. I could go on and on!


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## WA Bees (May 20, 2016)

JRG13 said:


> Ok, how many hours you put in to make that 3 grand? What bout extraction equipment. How much it cost to get to 10 hives? What about cost for feeding?


I've tried to approximate the time I will be putting into each hive and with 10 hives it won't be much work. With more hives similar to working a part time job and with a large amount of hives similar to working a full time job 3-4 months out of the year. The best thing is that I am working for myself though. I will probably have a better idea of how long it will take in a year or so.

For the extraction equipment I am going to rent for the first couple times unless I get a good deal. I have decided to only feed hives when they absolutely need it and will see how this approach works, so feed won't factor in price much. I'm not taking into account the costs of hives or expenses similar as I will gain those back within the first year for each hive (in theory) and will only be subtracting the reoccuring expenses from the hive profits.


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

WA Bees said:


> I'm not taking into account the costs of hives or expenses similar as I will gain those back within the first year for each hive (in theory) and will only be subtracting the reoccuring expenses from the hive profits.


What's your plan on selling the honey?


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

No matter how you cut it, your first few years or more will always be in the red. The moment you buy a piece of equipment to make your life easier, your profit margin just got that much smaller. This is not like an Internet business that only takes a few hundred dollars to get started. Startup costs are much larger with this occupation and is going to take a much larger initial investment. Payoffs for this are like I said, years down the road. 

Do as you will, but any money made even from a few hives or a little bit more is not going to sustain your operation. You need to know your overhead costs and analyze how many hives its going to take before you break even and then add some more. 

Simply even renting or paying for an extraction service is going to eat you up. Start small and get a head on your shoulders before even thinking about getting bigger.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

WA Bees said:


> I'm confused on why people report small profits a lot of the time as I've put the numbers together and it seems like one can make a decent profit keeping bees.
> 
> Take 10 hives for example
> 
> ...


Good Luck on the 60lbs of honey. 
So you will be selling queenless packages for 125. Queens dont mate in the cold WA springs :doh:
80 bucks for pollination. I am interested, where can I find such contracts :scratch:

Not reasonable. Don't you need supers to make honey...


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

3 grand per 10 hives = 30k 100 hives. Easy Money!!!:banana:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So feeding don't cost much, eh?
Once you hit the yearly summer dearth and the rainy early Spring cold you
will see if such a cost is a factor. Go through 1 or 2 seasons to see what your
local bee environment is like.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

A 10% loss is great. Had just slightly higher than that my first two years. Broke the 50% mark last winter/spring on the NUCs, even using what might be called BMP. Treatment free combined with a warm winter, wax moths never slowed, mites kept on, and robbing hit. Hives only did slightly better at 40% losses. 

I am a newbie and ignorance about a lot, but was following the same plan as the first two years. 

There is lots of experience here, listen well. I know people with 100 hives are not making 30K on it. Your business plan might be planning on too much profit.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

WA Bees said:


> I'm confused on why people report small profits a lot of the time as I've put the numbers together and it seems like one can make a decent profit keeping bees.


Always easy to make a profit on paper.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

$5 dollar a pound honey? Where? his first paper profit mistake
#2 you will do one or the other - sell bees or make honey - rarely both - paper profit #2 mistake
#3 The reason pollution pays is the bees usually don't make honey - requiring feeding - that's why the pollinator pays for this service #3 paper profit mistake
Shall I continue or is this point enough - I'm not saying you can't make money with bees - I am saying if you base your living on this spread sheet - better get used to roman noddle's


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I am certainly not commercial beekeeping but from a fair bit of experience in other ventures I know that gross sales at highest possible prices, fortune always shining etc., is not the makings of a reasonable business plan. It certainly would be hard to attract venture capital on that basis. If you think you can work at a loss for a while and starve out the experienced competition you may find that they know more about making noodles than you do.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

This type of thread occurs with predictable regularity -- "Evaluate my business plan to make millions in bees". With only a couple of exceptions, these boastful entrepreneurs seem to vanish after their initial posts.  This thread is unusual in that the OP appears to have zero tangible experience with bees.

A good rousing chorus of "Acres of Clams" would be the appropriate response rather than fine grained criticism of the naive calculations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKyGOOzXsOA

The OP proposes to capitalize a 100 hive apiary, and operate it remotely. No investment plan detailing the capital spending or source of capital is presented. The apiary will have (virtually) no income in the first year. The OP proposes to pay wages (!), and the cash flow for the debt retirement, living expenses, and wages can only come from additional investment capital.

A 100 hive apiary needs 1) 5 to 10 outyards, 2) a storage facility with a crude (but health regulations legal) honey house, 3) trucks and forklifts. Initial capital for these items will exceed $100,000 and involve continuing rents.

The OP proposes to sell honey (at 6,000 lbs/year) for a boutique wholesale value. This involves bottling, labeling and distributing approximately 3,000 units. This will require a fairly large distribution network (50 to 100 outlets). Creating and then servicing the distribution hetwork will require substantial labor, nowhere accounted for the back-of-envelope calculation. The OP is a brash and vigourous salesman, but generating 50 retail outlets in a competive market for a product that won't be available until "next year" if at all is a highly problematic venture. Simply capitalizing and storing the bottling cost will require free capital. What happens when the inventory goes to crystal before sales?

The subunit calculations for cost are not justified ($900 all in for 10 hives). Just purchasing bottles/labels for the proposed subunit production (600 lbs) will consume more than half of the presented cost. Mileage cost to inspect and transport the hives will consume the full calculated cost.

In Central California, the sideline to business-in-the-black threshold is north of 600 hives, and we benefit from dollars raining from the sky when the almonds bloom. There is nothing in the OP posts that indicate he has the magic to undercut the hard-scrabble beeks bootstrapping their hive count to a break-even 600. I say go with what the folks on the ground have figured out -- you need to build up, retire debt, and have a full trailer load of pallets before you can talk about living on the easy labor of your farmhands.

On honey, if you are selling into a boutique market, one needs a product that folks want to buy. Does the OP have a floral source with a good reputation. I thought fall honey was Rabbitbrush in eastern Washington -- good if you like your honey flavored like burned rubber. Apple honey (does it exist, as my bees go hungry on apples)? Buying hives off the Almonds -- please it makes good bee food, but no repeat human customers. There just seem to be huge gaps in the plan.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WA Bees said:


> I'm confused on why people report small profits a lot of the time as I've put the numbers together and it seems like one can make a decent profit keeping bees.


As someone who has filed more than 25 Schedule F, Profit or Loss From Farming, I have had many a year when I had No Profit, aka Loss.

So I don't care what you think you can do or how you think it aught to be, tell me how you did, 5 or 10 or 20 years from now.

I'm telling you how it is. I hope it's not too hot for you in the kitchen.

What is it going to cost you to make that 60lbs of honey? What will it cost you to market it at $5.00/lb?

Splitting hives can cut down on your production. So be careful.

I met a Commercial Beekeeper in east MT who runs 3,000 hives and does pollination work in CA almonds. He said that pollinating apples in WA was not worth the trouble and the effects doing so has on bees. He said that $45.00 was not worth it. So where did you come up with $80.00? Thin air or an actual orchard's statement?

Your figures are not unreasonable, on paper. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. And I think you are jumping the gun on your business plan. Learn how to keep bees first. Then see whether you can get them to produce some income.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Here is what I recommend because it worked out really great for us.
If it does not sound like something for you, do something else. Its a free country.

We started out with a couple of hives and doubled every year.
I always had a really good job and thank heavens I did!
Raising a family does not come cheap.
But by the time all of the college loans were paid off, our farm was paid off, the kids were out and starting families of their own I finally had a couple of hundred hives, equipment, trucks, forklift, etc.... All paid for.
Then, I left the workforce and run a bee operation.
No business plan! We increased slowly and let the business plan it's self.

If there is any way that you can get away from debt and paying interest, you will be amazed at how much easier money is to manage.
Don't get me wrong! When we were buying rental properties, they were all leveraged.
We had a mortgage for years. We made car payments.
When we paid our last debt off in 2004 Liz and I set a rule in stone.
We will never pay interest ever again, period.

So just think about it.
Keep your day job. Grow your hive numbers at a rate that fits your experience level.
Try to avoid debt in every way possible.

That's our story. Whatever route you take I hope it all comes together with success.


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## Seed guy EC IL (Jun 14, 2016)

Thats really interesting Harry. During the part time phase of your operation how much of your growth was funded by your bee enterprise? Or was it mostly subsidized by your day job? If you don't want to share that info that's fine. I'm just curious what your experience was.


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Try to avoid debt in every way possible.


:thumbsup:


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Come on, guys, WA Bees is totally clueless, but thinks he knows it all because he read it on the internet. He doesn't have enough beekeeping knowledge to understand the info experienced beekeepers are telling him. Every internet forum has these "instant experts" periodically pop up, and Beesource is no exception.

He has zero beekeeping experience, but with his first 3 packages in the mail to him, he is talking about profitably running 100 hives next year. That right there shows he is so clueless that he doesn't know what clueless is.

He has no experience with and no plan for controlling mites, but he is expecting a $5000 gross and $3000 net per hive per year.

The list goes on, but the above is sufficient.

Just be nice to WA Bees and guide him to joining a bee club or working for a commercial beekeeper so he can start to learn. After a couple of years, if he is still around (and he won't be because the hard reality will come nowhere close to his easy expectations), he will then have some experience and maybe then will start to understand just how naive he is.

JMHO


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## WA Bees (May 20, 2016)

shinbone said:


> Come on, guys, WA Bees is totally clueless, but thinks he knows it all because he read it on the internet. He doesn't have enough beekeeping knowledge to understand the info experienced beekeepers are telling him. Every internet forum has these "instant experts" periodically pop up, and Beesource is no exception.
> 
> He has zero beekeeping experience, but with his first 3 packages in the mail to him, he is talking about profitably running 100 hives next year. That right there shows he is so clueless that he doesn't know what clueless is.
> 
> ...


1) Oxalic acid vaporizer for mites

2) Go start a profitable business from $500 and come and talk to me

3) In 5 years I want to have 100 hives

4) If I'm as unsuccessful at beekeeping as you are, I will sell my equipment and get out of beekeeping

5) I wouldn't call an "expert" someone who claims how beekeeping is so hard and unprofitable, yet stays in the business anyway. 

6) There are beekeeping courses online. "Reading it on the internet" provides you a database with millions of research articles.


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## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

I love this. I absolutely love your optimism. Please hang around and give us monthly updates on your progress. 

(9 years, 19 hives, have yet to pull more than $1000 yearly profit admittedly commercial is not my main goal, I am hobbiest through and through.)


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## 357 (May 2, 2016)

I admire his optimism and I'm a n00bee as well. I too have goals but I have a large family to provide for, along with other ventures including goats, chickens, gardening, fruit trees, and maple syrup production. I plan on adding grape vines shortly as well. 

Anyway, (WA Bees) you can reach your goals but I think what the more experienced beeks are trying say is that they think you need to adjust your priorities. Keeping bees alive has become a much more challenging goal in and of itself. Mastering that skill is paramount to any other goals in beekeeping. However, that's no easy task and can take years. Even then beekeeping isn't a closed loop system. It is affected by variables outside your control. So, you can do it all "right" and be well on your way, and one year lose 90% of your colonies, putting you short of your mortgage payments. There are going to be failures and hard lessons along the way. IF, you can keep bees alive for a few years, then figure out how you think you can make some money off them.

Just my $.02


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

charmd2 said:


> I love this. I absolutely love your optimism. Please hang around and give us monthly updates on your progress.


:thumbsup:

Just keep at it WA Bees!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jim lyon signature line gives a good summation! As far as the internet being a data base on millions of research articles on beekeeping, I think a person would find that the contradictions and local variations in much of that would be beyond sorting out usefully until you have a fair bit of experience actually working with bees.

As for hiring people to work your bees for you, are you going to train them or outbid the competitions wages. It is easy to hire castoffs that someone else found unworkable.

Experience is the best teacher but it can be very expensive.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

WA bees - Heck - don't wait - bring me cash - I'll get ya to 100 hives in a week - 200$ a hive - cash only - then next year you can shut us all up as you explain how you made all that profit - heck - for a few dollars more - I even transport them to ya
And another thing - just what was that profitable business you started for $500? because it wasn't beekeeping


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Courses.wow what Google has done.this thread is still going nowhere.......can't lead a horse to water fellas.good luck wa bees.repost this thread in 5 years.best of luck to ya.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

How about we all go back to beating up on mites......


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