# Warre practically empty



## Steven Ogborn

For starters..."stupid, stupid, stupid" Start by not using or thinking that anymore. It sounds like you managed a Warre hive
even more than they were intended. Remember, Warre didn't have to deal with moths and varroa etc.
What I would suggest if your bees are really gone. Rip together a couple of top bar hives for next year and, get into them
every week after they get established. It's great seeing the changes that can happen even on a weekly basis. You can even 
keep track of queen cups that they play with. You might get to have to cut out all their combs and reattach them when
they build all of them diagonally across the top bars. I had to do it with mine. It was a blast. If you're wanting to learn about
bees, top bars are great for that. Top bars are a great middle ground between hive types. 19" top bars can be rigged into Langstroth
boxes if you want to get into the vertical hives later. There's people who use top bar hives in New York. Anarchy Apiaries is one.


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## Joseph Clemens

What makes you think SHB were responsible for what happened to your warre hive?


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## Holmes

Steven, the only reason I managed it more than usual was because it's my first year and I wanted to learn more about them. I do not plan on opening it that often in the future. I thought about a TBH before I decided on a Warre but it doesn't seem natural for the bees. I always enjoyed opening the hive and checking on their progress but at the same time I hated it. It felt like I was disturbing them (and I was) and interrupting their flow.

Joseph, I'm not 100 % certain it was SHB that destroyed the colony as there are tons of things that can go wrong with a hive. The SHB's larvae tunnel through cells destroying pollen, honey, and pupae and larvae. I also may have received a poorly mated queen or they may have swarmed and I just never saw it happen. There are less than half the amount of bees left in the hive right now. I have not seen any new brood in a while.


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## Beethinking

Holmes,

I'm sorry for your loss! There are many factors that could have led to the colony's demise. Did you see any signs of Varroa, such as bees with deformed wings crawling on the ground? Or Varroa on the bees themselves? 

When did they move down to the second box? A common phenomenon that seems to affect some Warres is the bees inability/unwillingness to move down from the 2nd box into the 3rd. No one seems to know the root cause. I've got 12+ Warre hives and I see it with a few of them every year. Often they'll repeatedly swarm next to colonies that are happily building down into their 3rd and 4th boxes -- essentially swarming themselves to death. It's a difficult problem to address. Sometimes I'll add a 3rd/4th box and move a couple empty combs from the box above as "bridges" to draw the bees down. Sometimes it works! 

Is there any brood or a queen at all? I'd determine that before spending any time/resources feeding them. If they've got NO stores then feeding them syrup likely isn't going to help too much. Personally I'd probably leave them to die and repopulate with a swarm next year rather than a package. I've had far better success (and so have our customers) with swarms.

Best,
Matt


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## David LaFerney

Who knows what happened, but seeing a few SHB during an inspection in the South isn't even anything to worry about - don't like it, but it's par for the course. Hives that get ruined by them have *hundreds* - the bees can deal with a few just fine. Also, when SHB take over you will usually spot *a lot* of their orange/brown sawdust looking frass in the bottom of the hive. IMO, the hive is usually stressed by something else first before the beetles become a real problem - robbing, starvation, disease, queenlessness.... I arrived at this by stressing a bunch of hives and later regretting it.

I disagree with those who say start over with a different hive design. Maybe start again with an additional hive design. You now have more Warre experience than 99 44/100% of everyone on here. Way too soon to give up.


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## ldh1006

did u c any mt queen cells? if they swarmed u will find mt queen cells!!!hope that helps.


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## Holmes

Thanks Matt and David for the encouraging words. Like you both mentioned, there are many factors that could lead to a colony's collapse. 

Matt, the 2 bars I inspected on Sunday did not have any stores or brood, all the cells on both sides were empty. Out of the 8 bars in the top box, I inspected the ones that had the most bees on them hoping for something, but they were empty, it was very sad. The other bars were pretty much vacant of bees. According to my records, during my inspection on June 18th I noticed 3 bars in the second/bottom box had partially built comb with some new brood in one of the bars I inspected. A side note, I purchased the Warre kit from you this past winter. I had a great time assembling it and am glad to see that you offer boxes with windows now.

David, I don't think the SHB infestation was that bad. I'm sorry to hear about your stressed hives, but I guess we learn from our mistakes. I agree, I'd like to get at least one more hive for next year, that way I can at least compare the two to see who's doing better and use one to help the other if it's failing.


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## David LaFerney

Holmes said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your stressed hives, but I guess we learn from our mistakes.


I was mostly talking about mating nucs which had to deal with cycles of queenlessness along with heat, drought and dearth throughout this past hot dry summer. It was a crash course in crashing.

My main hives suffered a bit from the weather, but mostly did fine - as did a lot of the mating nucs.


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## Zonker

I'm beginning to think of packages as a waste of money. The swarms I catch do great. The packages I get mostly die. I wouldn't give up on the Warre's yet, but I'd think about getting more than one hive. You can rescue one from another with bees or brood, but with just one you're sort of helpless.


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## Holmes

I plan on purchasing another hive over the winter. As much as I'd like to build one myself I just don't have the time. I've also been thinking about other alternatives, either capturing a swarm or purchasing the bees from a smaller and more local place. I can't get much more local than Betterbee (they're only 15 minutes away), but I believe they get their packages shipped up from Georgia. I'd love to find an individual that's located in NY or VT that I could purchase from. Despite my issues, I'm sticking with the Warre hive.


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## Box

> When did they move down to the second box? A common phenomenon that seems to affect some Warres is the bees inability/unwillingness to move down from the 2nd box into the 3rd. No one seems to know the root cause. I've got 12+ Warre hives and I see it with a few of them every year. Often they'll repeatedly swarm next to colonies that are happily building down into their 3rd and 4th boxes -- essentially swarming themselves to death. It's a difficult problem to address. Sometimes I'll add a 3rd/4th box and move a couple empty combs from the box above as "bridges" to draw the bees down. Sometimes it works!


Hi
I made a pair of warrés last year , and the one family did good (natural swarm) but the other one (cut out) had trouble getting to the next box , and did like written in the quote ,i dont think that it was the different origin there were to blame, later I was reading on David Heaf´s pages under Johann Thür and the hive
he was advocating ,It is basicly a warré hive, more or less  the one big differens is the use of spales, like in skeps, instead of topbars ,this allows the bees to
build unbroken comb and the problem is solved ..... Management maybe a bit alternativ I suppose


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## Zonker

Has anyone checked out the YouTube videos of the Japanese hives? Same dimension as Warre's (interesting coincidence) but with no bars at all. I bet they don't have problems with bees not going down into the next box.


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## David LaFerney

How about a link?


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## Zonker

sort of new at this but hopefully this will work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IZldnd9wMLU


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## David LaFerney

That works fine. Pretty cool really. It looks like they separated the "super" by cutting it with a wire, and then the one that goes back on the bottom of the stack just has some stiff crossed wires to support the comb after the honey is harvested. Woodenware doesn't get much simpler than that.


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## pascopol

As a new beek few years ago I did considered my options with TBH, Warre etc touted as more "green" and "bee friendly" approach, and more I red into it more I was convicted to go with Langs.

The bottom line is: Warre, or TBH is not going to get your bees immune from SBH and Varroa problem, period. 

That's why I am growing with Langs type hives, so far no complains, but I am still going to give it a shot with TBH hive to see if it can make more bees than a Lang, (not more honey since that's agreed and settled)

The fact than Lang can make more honey and pollinate more crops can not be disputed as present, otherwise all commercial beeks would be switching to anything else than Lang.

Our crops need to be pollionated so we can eat, and commercial beeks assure we are at it.

Most of TBH and Warre spiel is just as Global Warming unproven type hype mystery, and leveling US to the bottom feeders of planet Earth folks, just use your common sense !

Do we want to compare ourselvs to Kenia or other Backward African Country ???

Is your concern of keeping bees, and sustaining our environement being on the "green" or cheap side or on the common sense side??

I do not give a [email protected]#$ if I take a heat on this one, I take a stand of majority of US populaton common sense, disregarding distructive and anticonstitution Gov promoted hype, it served me well in my lifetime.


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## Bush_84

Who says all TBH and Warre beekeepers are hippies? You sure seem to indicate that in your tone.


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## Steven Ogborn

pascopol said:


> As a new beek few years ago I did considered my options with TBH, Warre etc touted as more "green" and "bee friendly" approach, and more I red into it more I was convicted to go with Langs.
> 
> The bottom line is: Warre, or TBH is not going to get your bees immune from SBH and Varroa problem, period.
> 
> That's why I am growing with Langs type hives, so far no complains, but I am still going to give it a shot with TBH hive to see if it can make more bees than a Lang, (not more honey since that's agreed and settled)
> 
> The fact than Lang can make more honey and pollinate more crops can not be disputed as present, otherwise all commercial beeks would be switching to anything else than Lang.
> 
> Our crops need to be pollionated so we can eat, and commercial beeks assure we are at it.
> 
> Most of TBH and Warre spiel is just as Global Warming unproven type hype mystery, and leveling US to the bottom feeders of planet Earth folks, just use your common sense !
> 
> Do we want to compare ourselvs to Kenia or other Backward African Country ???
> 
> Is your concern of keeping bees, and sustaining our environement being on the "green" or cheap side or on the common sense side??
> 
> I do not give a [email protected]#$ if I take a heat on this one, I take a stand of majority of US populaton common sense, disregarding distructive and anticonstitution Gov promoted hype, it served me well in my lifetime.


What are you talking about? Do you know? Dude! It's bees in a box. chill.


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## Bush_84

Ditto. In the end you can run a Warre with frames.


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## Zonker

Pascool, I bet my politics are as radical as yours but I'm using Warre's because they're cheap ($0 invested for 4 hive complete hives) and they're easy (two visits a year). I'm working a bunch of other projects (orchard, garden, root cellar, barn, workshop) and don't have time to babysit a bunch of bees. I think you can safely use Warre's without getting thrown out of the Tea Party or ending up on an FBI list.


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## Holmes

Steven Ogborn said:


> What are you talking about? Do you know? Dude! It's bees in a box. chill.


Exactly, chill. No one's attacking you, so why jump on people using a different method for keeping bees? I'm just like everyone else out there, I'm trying to do what's best for the bees. My research led me to believe that the Warre hive would be the best fit. Just like Zonker, I have a lot of things going on between my photography business and homestead. I don't need to be micro-managing my colonies, I think they know how to take care of themselves. All I can do is provide a home for them, and that's what I'm doing. I don't believe I'm saving a baby seal somewhere because I keep Warres.


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## Steven Ogborn

Has anyone heard or know what fines or punishment someone could get for getting caught using a Warre, skep, or gum with
spales or unremovable combs? I'd like to experiment with something like that. Just wondering what the penalties could be.


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## sqkcrk

Why would you do something you know is wrong? Which apparently you do, because you are trying ti find out how much trouble you will be getting yourself in to. Didn't your Mom and Dad teach you not to do what is wrong?

To answer your question though, probably in all likelihood nothing. First, someone would have to sick the authorities on you. Then, after they have verified you are running a colony w/out removable frames they would issue an Abatement Order, giving you time to remedy the Noncompliance and also a period in which you can Appeal the Order. Then, if you refuse to comply they might take you to Court where the case will most likely be thrown out because the Judger has much bigger fish to fry and only so much time and patience w/ which to do so.

Mostly, if no one knows no one will care. And there is always the idea that forgiveness is easier to get than permission.

Let your conscience be your guide.


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## Steven Ogborn

Thanks for replying, Mark.
That didn't really answer my question, but thanks anyway.
Right and wrong? Really? Does illegal always equate wrong? Is legal always right? Several years ago it was wrong to drive faster
than 55 miles an hour anywhere in the U.S.A. Now most people zoom around at 70 or better everyday. Right? Still to this day, in the city
I live in, there is a city ordinance on the books that make it illegal to carry wire cutters on your person inside city limits. You can 
still be detained for suspected cattle rustling for having them in your possesion. Wrong to have wire cutters in town.
It makes me thankful the founding fathers of our nation accepted the responsibility to be wrong and commit treason. Otherwise,
we would still be ENGLISH. Legal and illegal can't always be applied to right or wrong. If it could, we would have a massive amount
of useless lawyers, judges, and politicians. I think the continuation of silly or outdated laws could have been where the idea that
forgiveness is easier to get than permission could have come from. Like alot of life something simple became complicated, and
Right became wrong and I apologize for driving this thread off topic. I was wrong for even asking. Steven.


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## sqkcrk

Steven Ogborn said:


> Just wondering what the penalties could be.


In Texas? Ask a Lawyer.

As I said above "To answer your question though, probably in all likelihood nothing." Didn't you read the whole Post?

As a former Apiary Inspector of 20 years experience, in NY, no one ever got fined for violation of any of the bee laws, not even those who refused to comply w/ AFB Abatement Order.

Try you argument on Judge after you violate one of those Laws you find wrong and get arrested for the violation of.


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## sqkcrk

Steven Ogborn said:


> Thanks for replying, Mark.
> That didn't really answer my question, but thanks anyway.
> Right and wrong? Really? Does illegal always equate wrong? Is legal always right? Several years ago it was wrong to drive faster
> than 55 miles an hour anywhere in the U.S.A. Steven.


Join us on Tailgater and we'll kick it around.


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## A. S. Templeton

sqkcrk said:


> In Texas? Ask a Lawyer....As a former Apiary Inspector of 20 years experience, in NY, no one ever got fined for violation of any of the bee laws, not even those who refused to comply w/ AFB Abatement Order.


Yes, I've read of heavy-handed inspector tactics in Europe and Britain (where folk seem generally more inclined to kowtow to Authority), but here in the US of A, not so much.

Just keep yer head down, brush that chip off yer shoulder (hi, Pascool ) and proceed gently -- it's not like yer growing dope here.

Anyway, I've had a few Warré colonies abscond and dwindle, after issuing a swarm or post-package install. I'm unaware about the relative frequency compared to that in the Lang domain. No biggie either way; that's life.

But I've observed that my captured and rehived swarms do generally better than 1st-generation packages. I just let them be after rehiving and do not harvest in autumn. I've never requeened post-swarm, despite local 1950's-era ordinances requiring just that.

/A


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