# Mike Palmer nuc versus 5 or 4 frame nucs



## Bob J (Feb 25, 2013)

Ondras said:


> Hello,
> I am going to build some nucs over the winter and I am little bit puzzled. I like Mike Palmer's setup, but I am not sure what is the benefit over single 5 frame nucs. I know that the heat transfer is one of the benefits but I can also put 2 or more nucs together and achieve the same, right? I know that use of standard 10 frame box may be beneficial but I feel that by using standard 5 frame nucs I can achieve all the same and get more flexibility and smaller, lighter equipment?
> Could you please advice?
> Also, as I am building new nucs, is there any advantage in building 4 Frame or 5 Frame nucs? I am in very cold climate and I am not sure if 4 frame two levels would not winter better than 5 frame. I know that there are many sizes but I would like to know what you think about difference between 4 and 5 frame nucs.
> ...


I use the 4 frame nucs.... For me it's good to be able to fit two 4 frame nucs on a standard 10 frame footprint.... This enables me to overwinter two nucs over a ten frame hive so the nucs have the benefit of the heat from the bigger hive...


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## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

I like the MP setup too. I make my own custom 6 frame medium NUCS. I decided to make up many double 6 frame divided bottom boxes to use for over-wintering colonies this year. I also cut a slot dividing each half to reuse as queen castles when needed. I can just add in the extra dividers and raise 4 queens. I used standard 1x8 lumber and did not rip down for the bottom boxes. This way there will be room for queen cells that extend below the frames when using for queen castles. The reuse in what I have done is an advantage.

PAHunter62


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I used the 2 4 frame nucs in a 10 frame box setup in New York and overwintered very successfully without putting them on top of 10 framers.
I did put a second set of 2 4 frame boxes over them (2 4fr on bottom and 2 on top) for a total of 8 fr per nuc...with 4 more frames of food they overwinter very, very well and are ready to explode if you put them in their own full size hives in spring.


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## Ondras (Sep 29, 2014)

Thank you guys, I think I can build separate nuc boxes and put them together for winter, the same as Mike Palmer. The only difference would be that I will have two nuc boxes on the bottom instead one 10 frame box with divider. it will give me more flexibility I think. I also do not have any 10 frame boxes as I run 8 frame only.
The other question is 4 frame or 5 frame nucs? Is there any benefit, preference? 
Thank you
Petr


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Petr - I run 5 frame NUC's here in WV. Single story but in your neck of the woods I'd say you would want 2 story due to the winters unless you winter inside. It really all depends upon your situation as to if you should go 4 or 5 frames. The biggest issue is winter. If you winter your bees outside as MP does, then you should most likely go to a double deep configuration of at least 4 over 4 like he does. Then make sure they have plenty of stores to see them through the winter. However, in a temperature controlled environment, you wouldn't need as many frames of honey as they wouldn't have to work to hard to keep the temp up, in that case a single 5 would likely do the trick. Adjust your setup to the area you live in. What works for me, wouldn't work for you in that area, but looking to someone with the same situation like MP, the results should be the same if the setup is the same.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ondras said:


> Hello,
> I am going to build some nucs over the winter and I am little bit puzzled. I like Mike Palmer's setup, but I am not sure what is the benefit over single 5 frame nucs.


Less equipment and more standard equipment - one telescoping cover, one bottom board, one hive wrap, one bottom box.

If starting with cells and one side fails to mate or looks too weak later in the season, you can just pull the divider and merge the colonies.



Ondras said:


> I know that the heat transfer is one of the benefits but I can also put 2 or more nucs together and achieve the same, right?


Probably, you would have use some sort of migratory type cover to be able to press them tightly together.



Ondras said:


> Also, as I am building new nucs, is there any advantage in building 4 Frame or 5 Frame nucs? I am in very cold climate and I am not sure if 4 frame two levels would not winter better than 5 frame. I know that there are many sizes but I would like to know what you think about difference between 4 and 5 frame nucs.


The one thing I don't like about Mike P's design is that there is to too much room for 4 frames and not enough room for 5 frames. If you run 9 frames in the brood chambers like Mike it is fine, but if you run 10 frames you find that they draw the frames out too wide. I have been debating adjusting the width of divider this year to create proper bee space for 4 frames.

If you are going to go with single story nucs in your area, you want at least 5 frames. Even with 5, I think you'll want to make sure they are fed well in the fall and be checking on them in early spring. If your yards aren't easily accessible, I would look at going to a two story setup. The second story also helps with swarming on the fall flow. It can be tough to get them to the strength you want going into winter without them swarming in a single 5 frame box.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Welcome to BeeSource Ondras.
I have 15 5frame nucs 2 and3 high, that I'm going to indoor winter this year, but if you look up Adrian Quiney on beesource, youll find that he outdoor winters 5 frame 2story nucs in wisconsin. He makes them into packs of 4 or 6 and stratigicly uses foam insulation....He has been very sucessful...

==McBee7==


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## Ondras (Sep 29, 2014)

Hello McBee and Thank you.
That is exactly what I was thinking. Thank I can have nucs 2 or 3 high and pack them together in two or 4 for the heat transfer. I will have a flexibility to change that configuration. I am going to build them this winter so they are ready for spring, but I AM STILL NOT SURE IF I SHOULD BUILD 4 or 5 FRAME NUCS???? Any reasoning, benefits between 4 or 5? I run all 8 frame hives.
Thanks
Ondras


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

4 frame nucs are a custom box,,,5 frame nucs are a standard nuc box and you can buy them from Mann Lake for about $10.50 us, mill run, and either build your own or buy the bottom board and top...I use migratory covers that overhang in the front and back only ,so you can slam them together side by side,,,The MP double nucs are cool but expensive, I think I saw an offering of the exact set up as he has for about $75 2 deeps...I have built my own set uup as MP has but they are very precise and take a lot of care to make...My preferance is the 5frame because of the additional bees available for winter with the 25% increase in brood and insulation area per box......Time will tell and in the spring the proof will be seen.
one trick with using a pack of nucs is to have the ends exposed to nature so they are cooler than the top, bottom or sides, so that the inter box humidity can condense on the ends and run to the bottom rather than letting the condensation happen at the top and possibly raining down freezing rain on the cluster inside....
A Q also seals and insulates the top for a heat bubble at the but has a vent hole (small) part way down on the front....Wish you luck and as MP says "Winter is the great equalizer" and I might add the prover of theorys 

==McBee7==


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

I talked to MP about this very issue, about a month ago. Why don't you ask him, he posts regularly and has always been helpful on here.


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## xphoney (Nov 7, 2014)

Another thing to keep in mind is that the 5 frame nucs when stacked can be a little tippy. If you use a deep box as base or combined cover then it helps to hold them together.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I run all 8 frame boxes as well.
I also have some 4 frame nucs.
I have 4 frame nucs stacked two stories high right now.
I like the 2 story configuration better than single stories,
as I can put pollen/sugar patties between the stacked boxes for supplemental feeding.

Here is what I'm planning for next year...
I'm going to make division boards for some 8 frame deeps, to give me side by side 4 frame nucs in a single deep box. I'm going to cut some boxes in half on the table saw and use a 1/2" plywood board to make a side on the two halves, giving me two free standing 4 frame nucs. The free standing nucs can then be stacked on top of a single divided 8 frame box to give me stacked 2 story nucs that share a side. The bottom story is half of a divided deep box, the top story is a removable free standing 4 frame nuc. This will give me easily manageable two story 4 frame nucs where I can remove one top nuc for inspection of the bottom half without danger of queens/bees crossing over to the nuc on the side. I think this is very similar to what Michael Palmer is using now.

My 8 frame boxes are from Mannlake which are too wide for just 8 frames, so using 1/2" plywood sides, set inside the half box short sides, will give me two stacked side by side 4 frame nucs having the same width over all as a single divided bottom box, and still give me room for 4 frames in each nuc.

I'm pretty sure this will give me a good over winter configuration of two story 4 frame nucs that share a wall for warmth and are easily manageable for both the top and bottom stories. It will also be less wood resource intensive as I'm splitting up already existing 8 frame boxes by just adding one division board for the bottom side by sides, and adding one side to each box sawn in half for single free standing 4 frame nucs.


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## SWM (Nov 17, 2009)

I think it's mostly a matter of personal preference. Michael has stated himself that the principle of what he's doing is more important than the exact equipment set up. I prefer standard 5 frame nucs with migratory covers pushed together for stability/insulation with opposite entrances. But use whatever works best for you.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

RayMarler said:


> I run all 8 frame boxes as well.
> I also have some 4 frame nucs.
> I have 4 frame nucs stacked two stories high right now.
> I like the 2 story configuration better than single stories,
> ...


Instead of insetting the sides on the 4 frame nucs created by sawing a box in half, I just thought that instead, I could reduce the width of each box by cutting down the width by 1/2". That way I can attach the 1/2" plywood just on the outside so not have to cut it to fill the space of the frame rests, as I'd have to do if I set the sides inset to the short sides of the nuc.


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