# I got 40 out of 45 Q cells capped and zero hatched???



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

At what stage did they die? What color were they?


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I don't think most people would put 45 cells in a 5 frame starter, but I could be wrong.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I wouldn't try that many at once, but I'm amazed they built them.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Is your nuc hive out in the full sun?
Maybe the cells got cook with all the high heat. What do you use for the
ventilation?


----------



## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

So many points of failure. You would need to write a detailed report on what you did, and then maybe someone would be able to point out what happened.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

How many frames of pollen? They'd need a boatload of raw material to feed the developing larvae and provision the cells. As said before....many possibilities.


----------



## challenger (May 27, 2009)

It was not too hot so I'm leaning toward too many cells for the amount of resources. I had two frames of honey with mixed pollen in each frame. 
I did this last year as well but I'm thinking it would be easier to use finishers for some cells. I'm just trying to raise enough for myself. 
We have a flow and the cells got started great but not enough royal jelly. In the past decent queens had jelly after emerging and these did not. 
All the pupae were white in empty cells and heads down. I suppose they ate what was there and it wasn't enough for them to finish developing? 
Several cells were puny too even though they were capped. 
Thanks


----------



## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Would bee build out and cap QC that were so poorly provisioned they couldn't support queen growth?
At what point in development do the maturing queens no longer have dependence on royal jelly...I presume when they pupate.


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Yeah, once pupation begins, they would have stopped eating.


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

challenger said:


> It was not too hot so I'm leaning toward too many cells for the amount of resources. I had two frames of honey with mixed pollen in each frame.
> I did this last year as well but I'm thinking it would be easier to use finishers for some cells. I'm just trying to raise enough for myself.
> We have a flow and the cells got started great but not enough royal jelly. In the past decent queens had jelly after emerging and these did not.
> All the pupae were white in empty cells and heads down. I suppose they ate what was there and it wasn't enough for them to finish developing?
> ...


Can this really happen? Bees are usually pretty good at managing their resources. Wouldn't they abandon/tear down some cells rather than try raise more than their resources allowed?


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

challenger said:


> All the capped cells had pupae that were dead.


Going from distant memory, but didn't the same thing happen to you last year?


----------



## challenger (May 27, 2009)

AstroBee said:


> Going from distant memory, but didn't the same thing happen to you last year?


Looking back yes to a degree. There is a slight difference in that nearly all of these got capped and seemed good looking other than some smallish sized ones.
I never was able to find out if the development would progress to pupation yet still be undernourished enough to not allow a hatched queen. 
I thought I remember reading something here about wanting to see RJ in the cell cup after pupation but I've not been able to track it down. I am pretty sure you want to see residual RJ in the cell after pupation.
I have seen many queen cells in hives with the same situation so I know the bees don't tear out cells once they are capped just because the pupae didn't develop fully and hatch. Just today I was in a hive with many swarm cells and a few of them were duds. Same white pupae and no RJ. I suspect they will tear these out once the pupae gets rotten.
Thanks


----------



## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Michael Palmer said:


> At what stage did they die? What color were they?


Good question, I would put my money on BQCV.
45 cells is not too many for a good 5 frame nuc you can get 90 cells out of a 5 frame swarm box.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> Yeah, once pupation begins, they would have stopped eating.


After the cell is capped, how many more days does the larva feed on the RJ before turning into a pupa?


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Flyer Jim said:


> Good question, I would put my money on BQCV.
> 45 cells is not too many for a good 5 frame nuc you can get 90 cells out of a 5 frame swarm box.


That was what I was thinking.


----------



## challenger (May 27, 2009)

When opened on the 10th or 11th day after grafting all pupae were glistening white???


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Perhaps you should give us a complete description of your methods.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

challenger said:


> When opened on the 10th or 11th day after grafting all pupae were glistening white???


We're they getting body parts?


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

The lack of royal jelly is surprising as well, I would assume some of them would have some left or enough to complete pupation. Beepro, I don't know, but I would assume a day at most, once capped, they really need to focus on getting pupated.


----------



## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

challenger said:


> When opened on the 10th or 11th day after grafting all pupae were glistening white???


11 days after grafting the queen should be pretty much fully formed so if they were all pupae they must have been dead for a few days already.
Were they still in the cell starter nuc or were they moved to a finisher colony or an incubator where they could have got chilled in transit.


----------



## challenger (May 27, 2009)

The were all complete, head down etc. 
It's my understanding that the pupae don't consume royal jelly. Once the cocoon is spun the pupae go head down and do not eat any more? 
I did more research today and every source I looked at said that it was very important to have residual royal jelly in the cells. 
I used a 5 frame nuc with about 8-9 frames worth of young bees on open brood and did 45 cells. Two frames honey pollen with a flow. Two frames closed brood. One frame grafts. 
On accident today I broke a swarm cell from another colony. It has several big swarm cells which I will let go as I already removed the queen and made a split on seeing open swarm cells. The cell is broke had a fairly mature pupae and still had a large amount of rj. I also had another colony with supersede cells. Not one of them hatched. All the cells were dry with white whole pupae head down and dead. 
I can't speculate the reason for this failure. 
BTW I'm pretty sure that a pupae that has broken out of the cocoon will be a complete bee that's just needing to, molt one more time and "harden off". In other words it will have all of its adult body parts. 
Interesting to know what a lack of abundant rj will result in other than small hatched queens.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Using as a starter/finisher, I think you pushed it too hard. Do you really need 45 cells at one time? Start smaller, like 15 cells. If you have an incubator you can really increase your throughput by pulling capped cells out of the finisher.

Oh yeah, and the sign of a well-provisioned cell is that there is RJ left over once the queen emerges. The new virgin often goes back into the cell to finish off the remaining RJ.


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

AstroBee said:


> Oh yeah, and the sign of a well-provisioned cell is that there is RJ left over once the queen emerges. The new virgin often goes back into the cell to finish off the remaining RJ.


This is obviously ideal, but viable cells can still be produced without this surplus - I don't think a lack of royal jelly explains why none of them emerged. Perhaps something disease related.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

zhiv9 said:


> This is obviously ideal, but viable cells can still be produced without this surplus - I don't think a lack of royal jelly explains why none of them emerged. Perhaps something disease related.


Adam,

Yes, I agree with you, but without knowing a step-by-step procedure of what was done we're left to make a guess. I also agree that when given the opportunity that bees almost always do the "right thing". I've never gotten 45 really nice cells using a 5-frame nuc as a starter/finisher. Sure, as a starter you can push them harder, but the finishing step is the most demanding. I also agree with you that at least some of the cells should have emerged. I think something else happened. I still suggest that Challenger start with much fewer cells until he gets the the process down.


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

AstroBee said:


> Adam,
> I still suggest that Challenger start with much fewer cells until he gets the the process down.


If it is a lack of confidence in grafting take, a guy could graft 45 and then 24-48 hours check the take and reduce the number of cells to 15-20.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

zhiv9 said:


> If it is a lack of confidence in grafting take, a guy could graft 45 and then 24-48 hours check the take and reduce the number of cells to 15-20.


True, but we're not sure where the problem(s) occurred. I think the grafting piece the easiest, but I appreciate that some do struggle with it. Its getting the cell builder/finisher to function relative to the demand/conditions that poses more challenges for the newbee, at least that's how I see it.


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

I think you are probably right, what can be interpreted as a poor take due to grafting error, could just as easily be the cell builder only being strong enough to start a certain number of cells.


----------

