# Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention



## MattDavey

I've been thinking over the last few days that in order to compare the various swarm prevention methods, especially Checkerboarding and Opening the Brood Nest, I think it's worth making a list of the general stages (not considering the age of the hive) and factors in spring buildup that contribute to Reproduction Swarms.

This is what I believe happens as concisely as possible. If I have things out of place or just plain wrong let me know.


A couple of inches of capped honey around the outside of the brood nest is seen as the boundary of the colony.
Space is created in the brood nest by consumption of honey during winter, aiding in heating, and then during spring build up, generally moving upwards.
Due to lower temperatures, clustering continues, especially at night and so nectar is preferred to be stored in the brood nest.
Large amounts of pollen are available in early spring and this is stored in the brood nest to raise increasing amounts of brood. This is determined by cluster size.
Brood are often raised in batches during spring buildup due to limited space. Brood population can almost double with each batch. As the brood nest expands, gradually all stages of brood are present.
Wax making capabilities are very limited in late winter and early spring due to temperatures being too low and limited incoming nectar. So extension of comb is limited.
Expanding areas of brood, and storage of nectar and pollen in the brood nest by foragers puts pressure on the available space in the brood nest.
During a spring flow, empty cells are quickly filled by the foragers with nectar, before the Queen finds them.
Empty cells become less and less very quickly as they are filled with nectar. Quickly reducing the amount of open brood.
The Queen starts loosing weight due to laying less and less eggs.
With a large amount of young Nurse Bees, any very young brood start getting a lot of attention and large amounts of Royal Jelly is available to get deposited into these cells, making ideal conditions for Queen Cell building.
Once the brood nest is backfilled with nectar, and there is a large number of unemployed Nurse Bees, then queen cells are built.
Due to little space to store nectar, Nurse Bees are also full of nectar. This aids in preparing for wax production. (It is held on to as long as possible, in preparation for a swarm.)
The Nurse Bees are now ready to swarm as soon as weather permits.
Scouts start searching for a new hive location.
When ready to leave, a signal is sounded and bees (especially Nurse Bees) start flowing out of the hive, chasing the Queen out as they go to get her to leave with them.


*Contributing factors to Swarming*
So when looking at the stages in spring buildup it seems that the main issues in causing swarm conditions are backfilling of the brood nest with nectar, which then causes there to be large numbers of unoccupied Nurse Bees. Once there is a large number of unoccupied Nurse Bees, opening the brood nest may not be enough to prevent a swarm.

*Checkerboarding* attempts to get the foragers to store nectar above the brood nest rather than in it, by providing empty comb above the brood nest. Ideally this is done before nectar sources becomes plentiful. It becomes clear that this leaves the brood nest free from congestion and allows for maximum population. All stages of brood continue throughout the spring buildup. Ensuring there is enough open brood to keep large numbers of Nurse Bees occupied. The issue with Checkerboarding for those new to beekeeping is lack of drawn comb.

*Opening the Brood Nest* does not stop backfilling of the brood nest with nectar. Rather it tries to maintain enough space in the brood nest to allow for backfilling, while maintaining enough space for the queen to lay and to ensure that there is always open brood to keep Nurse Bees occupied. Placing empty frames or foundation in the brood nest encourages wax builders earlier in the season, but wax making uses extra nectar and likely requires higher temperatures in wax making areas, again using more nectar.

*Conclusion*
So based on that, it seems that deterring foragers from storing nectar in the brood nest in the first place looks like the best way to prevent swarms, produce a higher population and to yield a larger honey crop.


Thanks to Walt Wright and Michael Bush and to everyone else who contributed to the Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest thread with helped in developing this. I certainly learnt much from it.

Hope people find this useful.
Matthew Davey


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## Roland

Good job. There is one fine point that I wish to discuss:

Opening the Brood Nest does not stop backfilling of the brood nest with nectar. Rather it tries to maintain enough space in the brood nest to allow for backfilling, while maintaining enough space for the queen to lay and to ensure that there is always open brood to keep Nurse Bees occupied.

I can agree with the first half, that it can not stop backfilling, but there may be an effect that you have not considered. When the capped frame of brood is removed from the brood chamber, and placed above the excluder; and a drawn empty frame replaces it, the effects of the bees hatching in an area NOT the brood chamber has not been examined in your analysis. Could you rethink your scenario with half of the new bees hatching above the excluder, and using their own entrance?

Crazy Roland


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## wcubed

Just signing in to keep up.
Walt


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## lakebilly

Great post.

Matt great I deat to have a summary post about a topic. Sounds like a great idea for the forum.


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## MattDavey

Roland, there are two separate things to consider in your question. 1. Moving capped brood out of the brood nest and 2. An entrance above the excluder.

1. I believe you have had experience with this, I haven't. So i'm speculating. IF the emerging Nurse Bees just stayed above the excluder, then you don't want to move too much of the capped brood away from the open brood and from where the queen is laying, as the emerging Nurse Bees are needed to tend to open brood. I don't know how long recently emerged Nurse Bees are likely to stay on the frame they emerge from. 

So Nurse Bees are likely to stay until most brood have emerged. But I suspect they will be attracted down below the excluder to any open brood as well (maybe by the smell of royal jelly). Once all brood in the frame have emerged and there is a cold night I suspect they will be drawn down below the excluder to cluster around the open brood to keep warm with the rest of the colony. The point is, as long as there is reasonable areas of open brood, there will be Nurse Bees there, and they will be occupied. The extra room in the brood nest allows for more eggs to be laid by the queen, so more population. But if the main entrance is below the nest, backfilling will continue.

2. Placing the MAIN entrance directly above the excluder changes things, but it's got nothing to do with the Nurse Bees. (This is based on what I have read by Jerry Hayes in Point of View and several posts by Joseph Clemens and a few others using this method.) The excluder is an obstacle to foragers. So foragers wanting to get in and out as quickly as possible store nectar in the super above the excluder rather than going through the excluder. The open brood below the excluder is not neglected, but a point to note is that the brood nest is NOT backfilled with nectar. Only enough nectar is stored in the brood nest to raise brood and to feed the colony when clustering. This is something I will be experimenting with next season (as it's Autum/Fall here.)

Matthew Davey


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## MattDavey

Acebird said:


> I think the queen looses weight because the tenders stop feeding her.


Acebird, considering at this stage of the season there is probably more nectar and pollen coming in than nearly any other time of the year. Why would the tenders stop feeding the queen?

I think it's more likely that the fact that she is laying less and less eggs is the reason that she losses weight. Her ovaries start to shrink as less eggs are needed to be ripened in the ovaries. The good old saying "Use it or loose it" applies.

To approach it from the other angle. A newly mated queen is quite slim and it is only once she starts laying eggs that her abdomen increases in size. The more she lays, the more the ovaries enlarge due to the increasing number of eggs needed to be ripened in her ovaries. 

Those who would be able to confirm whether or not this is the case would be Queen Breeders who cage mated queens in a queen bank.

Matthew Davey


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Matt, I have a years experience with Roland's method. When you raise the brood above the excluder it is tended by nurse bees, there is no real distance for those bees to travel - the raised frame(s) are directly above the excluder and the manipulation is done when weather and bee populations are favorable. It is not a one shot deal, every 12-14 days the frame(s) are exchanged with frames below the excluder thus providing the queen a place to lay without having to resort to a double deep just for brood. Workers pass freely through the excluder and the population above the excluder grows and works in the supers.
With this method there are fewer frames to inspect for queen cells, just tip the bottom box. The majority of the honey you want to harvest is in the supers and not in the brood nest. Try it with a couple of hives for a season.


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## Acebird

MattDavey said:


> Why would the tenders stop feeding the queen?
> 
> ... The good old saying "Use it or loose it" applies.


:scratch: The tenders stop feeding the queen to slim her down for flight so they can swarm.

If the queen looses it, how does she start up again? The swarm would be doomed.


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## MattDavey

Ace, use muscles as an analogy (think body building). 

The more often muscles are used the bigger they get. Stop using muscles for a week or too and they quickly shrink in size. You don't have the muscles shrinking to nothing. They just change in size to the demand placed on them. I think it's the same sort of thing with the size of the Queen's ovaries. 

Again, a Queen Breeder who uses queen banks would be able to verify.

Matthew Davey


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## MattDavey

Thanks Adrian. 

Just wondering, if you're finding queen cells, there still may be a large number of unoccupied Nurse Bees. Is the Brood Nest backfilled with nectar when you find queen cells? Have they swarmed as well if you have left an inspection too long? If so, I'm not sure of the advantages (in terms of swarm prevention) but can see it could build a bigger population.

Matthew Davey


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## minz

Roland/ Adrean,
Is the configuration of the hives Deep / excluder/ deep and then you are moving frames from the bottom deep above / below the excluder? Or is it a “one size fits all MB” and the mediums are swapped across an excluder. I was going to check Roland’s Method but seen he had 1500 posts so if he has already explained it perhaps a link to it would be great.


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## MattDavey

*Commit to Swarm*

To summarize, in order for a hive to Commit to Swarm 

A large number of unoccupied Nurse Bees (Due to little or no open brood.)
A large amount of stores, of nectar, pollen and honey. (Probably more the two thirds of the available cells.)
A queen to go with the swarm and a queen to stay with the hive (Queen cells.)
Good weather. (A warm to hot and humid day is preferred.)

Matthew Davey


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## wcubed

Matt,
Would agree that the list is almost manditory for ISSUE, but the commitment to reproduce by swarming precedes that. The starting of swarm cells IS the commitment to reproduce by swarming. Is that nit picking?

Re Nurse Bees:
We have written in other places that major colony decisions are made in the brood nest. At first glance, that would seem to be in error. By our standards, we would expect importent dicisions to be made by senior bees, but mostly young bees work in the brood nest. That would seem to add some credibility to the young bee theory.

But does it really matter which bees make the decision? When made, it is a COLONY decision, and all members work toward that goal. No dissenters, as is the case with other colony-level decisions.

Walt


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## psfred

Speaking from a theoretical viewpoint, the commitment to swarm is made BEFORE swarm preparation begins. The processes are probably initiated related to number of bees vs the available empty storage space as percieved by the bees, incoming nectar flow, and weather.

Warm days are not a trigger -- the bees swarm on the first warm, quiet day after the swam cells are of an appropriate age. Unemployeed nurse bees are a result of a backfilled brood nest, not a trigger (since the brood nest is backfilled already, else they would be making more bees, eh?). Absolute number of bees is more likely the trigger, although too many nurse bees for the brood might also factor in.

I suspect the cascade leading to swaming is more likely not a "triggered" cascade, but an interupted one. Meaning, of course, that the swarm initiation is ALWAYS the normal condition in spring unless something interupts the course of events. There is no specific trigger(s) to start swam preparation, there are only things that turn swarm initation off. The earlier this cascade is interupted, the better in terms of honey production, of course.

Rather than thinking in terms of stopping it once it starts, we should be thinking of ways to interupt the process. Reversing boxes, cheakerboarding, unlimited brood nest, and opening up the brood nest with empty comb make much more sense looked at this way. The sooner in the cascade the signal gets turned off less disruption there is in building bee numbers and honey production.

Peter


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## MattDavey

Thanks Walt, I did meant the list to be the conditions for a hive to "Commit to Issue a Swarm."

I'm not sure if the whole Colony decides to issue a swarm. To me it looks like the older forgagers continue focusing on 'the flow' and getting all that pollen and nectar out there. Where as the younger bees, especially older nurse bees are focusing on 'there is nothing for me to do here, who's leaving with me? Let's make a Queen (to come with us).' Anyway, I don't think it matters which bees make the decision to issue a swarm. My point in this thread is to look at the process and therefore the things that will cause them to call off issuing a swarm.

We agree that the earlier in the process the better, that is encouraging the foragers NOT to backfill the brood nest with pollen and nectar in the first place. The issue with a number of beekeepers is not having enough drawn comb. (So that the foragers have an alternative place to store nectar early in the season.)

So yes Peter, that is exactly why I'm looking at the cascade of events and what can be addressed to interrupt the process leading up to issuing a swarm. Obviously the earlier the better in terms of honey production.

I'm also interested in looking at other techniques that don't get much attention. For example, I recently found the Taranov Board on David Cushman's site, which is about separating young/Nurse bees who want to swarm from Foragers. This is probably a method that is a bit too late in the process but is based on the same issues that I'm talking about.

Matthew Davey


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## wcubed

Belaboring the cascade/trigger thing, it seems to me that there is a trigger. Brood nest expansion stops abruptly at the minimum capped honey reserve. This can easily be seen in the weaker/slower colony that plods on in expansion with no inclination to swarm. They can still be expanding at reproductive swarm cut off timing, without backfilling.

We arbitrarily say that reaching the expansion limit (minimum capped honey reserve) initiates swarm preparations (backfilling). Looks like a positive trigger to me. The colony can start backfilling and still not commit to swarm by starting swarm cells. So there is a second prerequisite - adequate broodnest reduction by backfilling. Two fairly positive steps in the cascade, IMO.

Not many folks buy the repro c/o concept, but I see it every year. Last time, 3 weeks ago. We are safely by it for another year of zero reproductive swarms. (6 colonies) Each with at least 2 shallows of nectar stored during the swarm prep period, above wintering quarters.

Walt


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## NeilV

Walt,

When did you checkerboard this year? I did it when I usually do it, about the 3rd week of February, and I could tell when I did it that the hive was at least a month ahead of schedule. Our winter barely happened. I should have done the checkerboarding in January. I'm now having swarming issues, since I was late and I've got plants blooming at the same time that usually are spread out. Weird year, for certain.

Neil


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## wcubed

Neil,
Yes. 
Seeing the advanced vegetative season, we moved CB to the first week of Feb - normally done in the last half of Feb. It's a given that it can be done too late to be effective. The bees base their schedule on their perception of the vegetative/forage season.

Interesting side note: We didn't get the brood volumes we are accustomed to. With normal cluster sizes in Feb, they were slow getting out of the blocks, and the shortened season cheated us out of 3 weeks of brood volume growth. Now, at "main flow" they don't have the normal bee power.

In the past 3 weeks of the "lull", blooms were everywhere, but of course, it didn't go in the supers. We will not get our normal production with CB This year.

Walt


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## MattDavey

I agree with the triggers Walt. Seems that most intervention is aimed at stopping the second trigger, such as Opening the brood nest.

Obviously Checkerboarding is aimed at avoiding the first trigger. So by what Neil is saying, if it is left to after backfilling has started, will it stop getting to the second trigger, or do you need to start opening up the brood nest? 

The other option is to stop foragers from backfilling the brood nest. I think that something like the Snelgrove Board for example, even though is an overly complicated design may help with this.

I'm looking at trying my QUEWE board (QUeen Excluder With Entrances) on a couple of hives next season to see if it will discourage foragers from storing in the brood nest. With the Main entrance shim directly above the excluder and a very small entrance (escape for Drones) shim directly below the excluder.

I also agree with the Repo cut off. Have seen the Nurse bees dumping the wax they have been saving up in a sudden burst of comb building, often the comb is built straight upward above the brood nest. (Usually in the roof of my hives, with them ignoring the frames of foundation on the sides! Now I better understand what's going on.)

Matthew Davey


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## wcubed

Matt,
Re wax purging. Pleased that somebody buys the concept. Thanks for confirmation. Thought I might throw in a little persuasion for the sceptics. During growth, the colony fills the cells as they are built - essentially in parallel. In honey storage, on foundation, the cells are filling as the comb is drawn.
In wax purging, there is typically nothing in the cells being built. The wax makers are just unloading their load of wax to change jobs, but it's not wasted. The wax is normally used to generate cells for the future. One more indication of efficiency in their instincts.

Old literature speaks in terms of the early flow and the main flow. Since new wax is generally associated with field nectar availability, I suspect that the "early" flow is really the effects of wax maker purging at repro c/o.

Walt


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## FlagstaffBaughs

I am very new to bee keeping and have been reading everything in site. I have a question reguarding this topic. Background: so my two hives were in an orange orchard for the last month in Phoenix. They had a very strong build up over 4-5 weeks ending 1 week into the opening of the blossoms. There were several differnt speicies of citrus so the bloom lasted almost one month. I pulled them out with the last blooms and when I got them home I decided to do some maintenance and another inspection. There are two deep hives and three supers. the lower two suppers are 100% full of honey the third supper is partly full of honey but completely drawn. In the uppermost brood chamber there are 4 frames of capped honey and the rest are half honey half brood with every available cell filled with nectar. In the lower brood body I found my queen and an emergency cell cap which was empty. the cap at most has been there for 1 week. It was not there in a previous inspection. I pulled the brood frames that were honey and replaced them with empty frames. I was worried about swarming with the overflowing numbers of bees but never saw a swarm cell. I also split out 4 frames for a nuc with a russian / carniolan queen. Did this avert a swarm? everything I've read leads me to belive they have not. Will they build an emergency cell and not use it?


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## MattDavey

FlagStaffBaughs, Queen caps are common and may never get used. Better to interleave frames of foundation with two frames of brood. Basically it's just opening the brood nest. The interweaving is so they can't ignore the foundation, if it's on the sides it may get ignored.

Splitting a hive is often done to prevent swarming, but when you consider the factors involved in the lead up to swarming, it becomes apparent that you can actually exacerbate the impulse to swarm rather than relieve it with splits.

*Example of a split increasing likelihood of swarming.*

Remove all frames of open brood and eggs from the parent hive, placing them in a Nuc. Also take two frames of stores. Leave queen in the parent hive. Move all frames in parent hive together in the middle and place frames of foundation on the sides.

_*Analysis*_
In the parent hive there is nowhere for the queen to lay. Foragers have no where to store nectar and pollen so fill cells as soon as brood emerge. A large number of Nurse bees are unoccupied. Foundation on the outsides of the brood nest will not likely get drawn. So the parent hive is still likely to swarm.


*Example of a split decreasing likelihood of swarming.*

Move parent hive at least a few feet away from original location. Place a new hive in the original place of the parent hive. Move one frame with eggs and two frames of capped brood to the new hive. Also move one frame of stores with a frame of foundation between the brood frames and the stores frame. In the parent hive place foundation in the broodnest alternated with a least two frames of brood.

_*Analysis*_
The foragers will go to the new hive. Being queenless the new hive will build queen cells and raise a new queen. Due to no where to store all the nectar coming in from the large number of foragers, it forces them to build comb. They won't swarm because they don't have a queen and because they have open brood. It will take up to a month before the queen starts laying. 

The old hive has no incoming resources due to no foragers, so empty cells from emerging brood remain empty until the queen can lay an egg in them. Alternated frames of (2) brood and (1) foundation force the Nurse bees to build comb. Which allows the queen more space to lay and so keeps the Nurse bees busy. There would usually be enough stores in the hive to last them several weeks. By that time young bees have started foraging.

Matthew Davey


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## eddieobees

MattDavey said:


> *Example of a split increasing likelihood of swarming.*
> 
> 
> *Example of a split decreasing likelihood of swarming.*
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew Davey



WOW!! Great explanation, especially for a newb like myself.

I obviously have been reading up on this issue and could not "wrap my arms around it". 

I'd like to hear what others think of your example/analysis

--Eddie O.


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## ChickenChaser

wcubed said:


> Just signing in to keep up.


Me, too.


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## psfred

Note that in the case of preventing swarming (a sort of cut-down split), the original hive will produce more honey.

You can also remove the queen, an few frames of capped brood, and two frames of stores to a nuc with a frame of foundation. Leave the old hive in place. The foragers will stuff it full of nectar since there will soon be a shoratge of brood to feed (a month with no new brood while they raise a new queen). Should get you a larger honey crop if you do this on a good flow, a brood break to reduce mite loading, and a second hive that will build up fast since you have a laying queen in it. Move the new hive to a standard box when there is brood in the new foundation and a second round in the frames that were capped brood initially (a few weeks?). Might even work in a full sized hive if you add extra bees.

Done early on the spring flow you should have two full sized hives by summer's end, plus a nice honey crop and reduced swarming.

Peter


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## MattDavey

Roland said:


> ... When the capped frame of brood is removed from the brood chamber, and placed above the excluder; and a drawn empty frame replaces it, the effects of the bees hatching in an area NOT the brood chamber has not been examined in your analysis. Could you rethink your scenario with half of the new bees hatching above the excluder, and using their own entrance?
> 
> Crazy Roland



Roland/Adrian, when a frame of mainly capped brood is placed above the excluder *and has some eggs or young larvae on it*, do the bees start making queen cells? Can you say how often this happens? Have you deliberately done this to see if queen cells are built?

Thanks
Matthew Davey


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## Roland

do the bees start making queen cells?

Rarely, but it does happen.

Have you deliberately done this to see if queen cells are built?

Please restate this question. It does not make sense. We move brood up to give the queen room. Over 90 percent of the hives have this done. I am confused. Are you asking about the effects of putting the young brood in the second or third super?

Crazy Roland

P.S. I do not frequent this forum, I am here because this thread was moved here(I believe). If I do not respond, PM me.


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## MattDavey

Thanks Roland, the question is around placing eggs or young larve above the queen excluder.

Questions are:

1. Considering the hive is used to having a queen excluder on it, if there are eggs or young larvae on frames placed above the queen excluder, how likely are the bees to build queen cells? (As this would indicate not enough queen pheromone is getting to those nurse bees.) In another thread Micahel Palmer indicated about 20% of the time (but I'm not sure if the bees were used to going through a queen excluder.) Would you agree?



Michael Palmer said:


> ... I have made thousands of splits using the excluder and placing brood over it for one night. Also have a re-queening method that employs same method. I just don't see queen cells the next day, and queen acceptance is always exceptional.
> 
> Now if you leave the brood up there long enough...I use this method...Brother Adam method...to set up cell builders. 10 days before grafting, a box of brood is placed above an excluder above a strong colony. 9 days later..the day before the graft.. I check the entire colony for rogue queen cells. In 20% or so of cases, there will be emergency cells above the excluder.



2. Do you deliberately place frames of eggs or young larvae above a queen excluder for the purpose of raising new queens?


3. Why do you move the frames of brood so often? Is it because there could be queen cells, or is it more about the brood cycle?


4. If you used two deeps below the excluder would you have to move the brood frames up so often?


Thanks
Matthew Davey


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## MattDavey

Here is Roland's response: (Thanks Roland, hope you don't mind me posting it.)




Roland said:


> 1. How likely are the bees to build queen cells?
> 
> In the first deep over one deep brood, very seldom(1 percent?).
> 
> 
> 2. Do you deliberately place frames of eggs or young larvae above a queen excluder for the purpose of raising new queens?
> 
> No
> 
> 
> 3. Why do you move the frames of brood so often? Is it because there could be queen cells, or is it more about the brood cycle?
> 
> None of the above. To make sure the queen does not have to wander about looking for an open cell, therefore she can lay more.
> 
> 
> 4. If you used two deeps below the excluder would you have to move the brood frames up so often?
> 
> Don't know, don't care to find out. More room for feed to hide, twice the frame to inspect.
> 
> 
> Crazy Roland



Matthew Davey


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## MattDavey

Roland said:


> Good job. There is one fine point that I wish to discuss: ....there may be an effect that you have not considered. When the capped frame of brood is removed from the brood chamber, and placed above the excluder; and a drawn empty frame replaces it, the effects of the bees hatching in an area NOT the brood chamber has not been examined in your analysis. Could you rethink your scenario with half of the new bees hatching above the excluder, and using their own entrance?
> 
> Crazy Roland


I have considered Roland's method and agree that it is likely to stop Swarming. The main reason being that it ensures that there is a large amount of open brood which will keep the nurse bees busy.

I also had a good look at moving a box forward (about 1 1/8" or 28mm) on top of a plastic queen excluder so that there is a 1/4" (6mm) gap under the front of the box. I found the back of the box is actually sealed by the queen excluder so the gap is only at the front of the hive.

With the entrance directly above excluder, the bees are less likely to store as much pollen and nectar below the excluder than if the excluder wasn't there (as it is an obstacle). The presence of brood above the excluder also helps to deter pollen and nectar being stored below the excluder. 

Even though backfilling of the brood nest occurs, is is more likely to be above the queen excluder. So the queen is able to continue laying eggs below the excluder without competition for empty cells with the foragers. This ensures that there is a large amount of open brood on several frames. There is also (reasonably) fresh pollen and nectar stored in the frames that have been moved below the excluder, so fewer foragers are required to go through the excluder to ensure there is enough stores close to the the open brood.

As Nurse bees emerge above the excluder they clean the empty cells which are soon filled by the foragers. So this ensures space for foragers to store in. The Nurse bees are also fed for the first few days as they harden up and mature, then as they move into Nursing duties they are likely drawn down to the open brood below the excluder by the smell of the open brood (and possibly the royal jelly.)

Because the bees are used to going through the excluder, enough queen pheromone is distributed throughout the hive to ensure queen cells are not built. But the fact that capped brood are placed above the excluder also ensures that they can't build queen cells above the excluder either.

As stated, to work properly, the swapping of frames from above to below the excluder needs to occur about every every 12 to 14 days. This is to allow all the capped brood to emerge above the excluder. When you consider the brood cycle, it is 21 days (3 weeks). Larva are capped at about 9 days, so they are sealed for 12 days.

When I consider the swarm season here, swapping capped brood would be required to happen for about 8 weeks, at most 12 weeks. So if brood swapping is done every 14 days (fortnight), swapping would occur on 4 to 6 occassions. So it wouldn't be as much work as I was thinking it would be.

Thanks Roland, I will be trying this next swarm season.

Matthew Davey


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## MattDavey

Noticed that Adrian Quiney said he had some hives swarm, so I asked him why he thought that had happened:



Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Matthew, having consulted with Roland on this I believe I was not moving enough frames up at one time. I was moving 1 or 2, whereas Roland was moving up to 5. This is another reason I think I need more drawn brood frames on hand. With the frames that are above the excluder I either dedicate them as honey frames or brood frames and don't mix them up.
> The more that folks ask me thought provoking questions on this the more I realize that for every drawn brood frame I have in a colony I probably need another drawn brood frame in reserve. I am going to have to come up with a plan for this; It may involve allowing colonies I plan to cull in the winter to draw out frames before there demise - which is easier said than done for me as I even have a hard time thinning out carrots.


Matthew Davey


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## Roland

It has been a most difficult year. Those hives that where strong enough to forage for the Red Maple bloom of March, are going gangbusters. The Dandelion flow was a flop. Normally there is a wide margin as to the number of frames you can move up. This year, due to the repeated hot/cold cycles, it was vary easy to error on either side, too much or too little. We errored on the too much on occasion. 

Adrian. don't worry about not having drawn comb to place downstairs, if there is a flow, foundation will also work, and will give them even more distractions. DO NOT use foundation of there is not a flow, they will chew it up and make a mess.

Crazy Roland


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## bbrowncods

Great discussion. I am learning a lot!


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## MattDavey

It's swarm season here, so was thinking about if I could summarise Swarm prevention in one line.

It would be something like:

*To prevent reproduction swarms, a beekeeper must keep the amount of open brood above a certain threshold that is proportional to the number of nurse bees, during the period when temperature and resources are suitable for swarming.*

That threshold is the hard part.

Consider the following:
Brood (and eggs) are "open" for one week and then capped for two weeks before emerging.
Young adult bees may nurse for up to three weeks before foraging.

So the ideal number of nurse bees to open brood is 3:1. 
(3 weeks nursing to 1 week open brood).

What does that look like in the brood nest? Maybe 2:1 capped brood to open brood.
So maybe keeping the brood nest at 2/3 capped brood is the goal.

Matthew Davey


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## Daniel Y

Walt, I am sure you are making a wonderful point. but nearly every other word in this post makes no sense to me. IT is almost like you introduced a foreign language to the conversation.

What is a minimum capped honey reserve or expansion limit? I have never heard of either one.

I believe I have seen for myself the plodding expansion you describe. I have been at a loss as to what I am seeing.

"They can still be expanding at reproductive swarm cut off timing, without backfilling". 

This almost sounds contradictory. are you still talking about a colony that is plodding along about expansion? I am not sure a weak plodding colony is subject of a swarm conversation. It woudl seem to me they are not functioning normally for a colony for whatever reasons and that is the subject for a completely different conversation on bee behavior.At the very least it is something like a curve ball and adds to my confusion of your comments.

Most confusing in this comment is the "reproductive swarm cut off timing". Again I have never heard of a cut off timing?

You say there is a combination of triggers. Expansion limit which I don't understand anything about and backfilling which I do understand.

Finally the last reference that leaves me going Huh? "repro c/o concept". What the hell is that? I am pretty sure it is confusing simply because quite a bit of your post has already left me wondering just what you are talking about. I suspect that most of it woudl clear up for me with an understanding of the "Expansion limit" which I have never heard of. at least not referred to like that.

I do recognize from my one plodding swarm this past year that some bees will only expand so far. I have no idea as to why.


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## Acebird

Read his manuscript and the terms will be much clearer. I think he sells it for 10 bucks.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> Read his manuscript and the terms will be much clearer. I think he sells it for 10 bucks.


Or possibly read what you're looking for here: http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/


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## wcubed

Daniel,
You are correct. It is a foreign language. In studying the swarm process, new concepts were seen for which no terms existed. (Plowing new ground) Had to either name them or use a full paragraph to describe the concept any time it was relevant.

Minimum capped honey reserve: Seen in the southeast primarily. An amount of honey at the top that is not used in the buildup. It is saved to carry the colony through swarm preps in the event of a dropout in field nectar. When that minimum reserve is reached by brood nest expansion, the colony starts backfilling. Not seen in more northerly areas where the beekeeper only leaves enough honey to carry the colony to available field nectar. It is consumed in late winter for survival.

Reproductive swarm cut off (repro c/o): The point in vegetative developement where the colony abandons swarm ambition in favor of colony survival. If the colony has not committed to swarm by starting swarm cells, they change internal operations to prepare for storing winter honey. The following three weeks is devoted to rearing the house bees needed to process and store honey at efficient rates.

Walt


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## MattDavey

I've noticed here that Reproductive Swarm cutoff is close to the Summer Solstice. It makes sense that that change of daylight from lengthening to shortening would signal that it is now time to start preparing for winter.

Also, Swarm season seems to start not long after Spring Equinox.

Repo cutoff also reminds me about the dumping of (white) wax and wax building that happens at that time. 

For Swarm prevention, encouraging wax building before swarm season starts, helps to encourage bees to build wax when they are running out of space (to store nectar), rather than backfilling the brood nest. So this should also be added to the summary...

Matthew Davey


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## Daniel Y

Walt, Thank you. I had this in the back of my mind all day yesterday wondering if i had really overlooked some critical points in beekeeping. Nto so. Simply a matter of I have not taken that close of a look at checkerboarding and more specifically your observations concerning swarming.

I did read the point of view. One comment that stands out boldly for me. "His conclusion: beekeepers see, but do not observe, or ask themselves why the bees do what they do." I would heartily agree. But I agree this is true for almost everyone anywhere. It is not an insult to others that do not observe. In act I consider the observers the "Nerds". Regardless it is not a negative in either way but it is a process that many simply do not go to the lengths to carry out. Observers tend to annoy the main stream with their detailed analysis of almsot any subject.

I point this out because i clearly see room that both the observer and the beekeper learn to understand each other and tolerate each other. Observers will bicker of some of the seemingly most trivial issues. but to the observer they are not trivial. They are important.

Case in point. is backfilling a signal that swarm preparation will begin or a result of it already haven happened. It is the difference between preventing swarming before it even gets started or trying to stop it once it has. For most the bees not swarming is the important part. for the observer, they realize it is better to prevent than to stop.

I have not seen the threshold and may not since I am more of a northerly location. I may have seen the choice to store rather than back fill and never even realized it. I also may have been adding frames to my hive during the prime swarming period but not because I was trying to prevent swarming. So I may have masked or interrupted some of the observations I could have made concerning swarming and how it looks.

At any rate I am an observer myself. So I look forward to bickering over many details in the future.

And thanks for your part in putting man on the moon.


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## Acebird

I am wondering if curtailing a swarm results in a new queen. How long will a colony survive without the queen being replaced?


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## Daniel Y

If the curtailing of the swarm resulted in a new queen. Wasn't the queen just replaced?

I am guessing you mean if curtailing of a swarm prevents the making of a new queen. How long will the existing queen live? I have read that a single queen can live for as much as 7 years. 4 is more likely. Being productive that long is another issue. From all I have seen I get the impression queens should be replaced every two years at least to keep a healthy productive queen in the hive. Observations of the brood nest and gaining the skills to determine if a queen is productive is a method I woudl prefer.


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## wcubed

Thanks, Daniel. Made my day, and it's early yet.

Queen life is inversely proportional to cavity size. That queen that lasted 7 years was operating in a small cavity and her progeny didn't know how to generate a swarm.
Walt


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## johno

I am following this thread with interest, going into my third year of beekeeping and have so far expanded to 24 hives. So the major problem that I have had with checkerboarding as a method of swarm control and maximising honey production has been the lack of drawn comb.
Thi spring I intend to try an excluder above the brood area with an entrance above the excluder and see how that goes. I have also had swarms from 3 of my hives in late July and into August , so here swarm cutoff seems after the summer solstice.
John


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## wcubed

johno,
Don't make a judgement on this wacko season. Your repro cut off should be close to mine - late Mar. Locally, the ferals were swarming in mid summer. Never seen that before, and won't try to guess why. In the managed colonies, repro c/o was almost exactly three weeks early this year. Again, will not guess how that affected the wild colonies.
Walt


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## johno

Thanks Walt,
I went from 9 colonies to 24 this season so do not have enough drawn comb to checkerboard next spring hence the excluder with an upper entrance plan.I keep my hives in mediums over a deep box so plan to put the excluder above the first medium.I see that you use shallow boxes, I am a little reluctant to change from mediums to shallows at this time as I have so many of the mediums. Do you think checkerboarding will still work with mediums over the deep
John


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## Acebird

johno said:


> Do you think checkerboarding will still work with mediums over the deep
> John


If you switch to all mediums in your case your inventory problem for drawn comb will diminish.


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## wcubed

johno,
Have little experience with mediums, but in a couple of cases where they were wintered in that config. the colonies treated the medium the same as a shallow. They did all their swarm preps in the deep below and didn't open any cells in the medium above. Very tough to stop swarming when they do that. I'll be very interested in the results of your upper entry approach. Checkerboarding does work with mediums when you have the drawn comb.

Ace,
How so?

Walt


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## Acebird

If your equipment is all the same size the amount of drawn frames available become large because all the ones used for honey the previous year are now available to use in the brood chamber. The new frames with foundation get used for honey. If your equipment is all different sizes than it will take you longer to build up enough drawn comb of each size so you do get short handed on one size required for checkerboarding.


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## MattDavey

Your Summer Solstice was March 20. (Correction, it should be June 20)

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_solstice

We have swarms after Summer Solstice too, but I'm thinking it is more likely due to the cavity being filled and nowhere left to expand. So the brood nest gets back filled and the swarm process begins.

Matthew Davey


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## squarepeg

matt, that's our spring equinox.


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## MattDavey

Thanks Squarepeg. Sorry, it was June 20.

There goes that theory...

Matthew Davey


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## johno

OK Ace, I have about 26 deep boxes I use for brood boxes and 8 drawn combs per box more than 200 frames. I prefer a deep box as a brood box, but if I discarded or cut down those boxes I would be in worse shape for drwn comb. the drawn comb I require is for honey production.So if I was to follow the herd and use only med boxes I would start with a deficit of 208 drawn combs, not quite where I want to be. We will see where we are in the spring and if there are losses I will make them up and hope not to expand any further, thus allowing my existing hives to produce sufficient drawn comb to meet requirements
John


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## squarepeg

johno said:


> OK Ace, I have about 26 deep boxes I use for brood boxes and 8 drawn combs per box more than 200 frames. I prefer a deep box as a brood box, but if I discarded or cut down those boxes I would be in worse shape for drwn comb. the drawn comb I require is for honey production.So if I was to follow the herd and use only med boxes I would start with a deficit of 208 drawn combs, not quite where I want to be. We will see where we are in the spring and if there are losses I will make them up and hope not to expand any further, thus allowing my existing hives to produce sufficient drawn comb to meet requirements
> John


if you are using all deeps, search for 'Roland's method for swarm prevention and honey production.


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## johno

Thanks for the reply Squarepeg,
I use a deep only as the first box then followed by mediums so I have actually 28 deep boxes and at present 50 mediums,I will need at least 25 more by March. I read a report by Jerry Hayes about entrances above an excluder and thought I would try it out.I will also do a search on Rolands method and see where that will lead me.
John


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## squarepeg

roland uses all deeps, and has a really cool method that i would use myself if i always had help around to deal with the heavy boxes.

i tried the excluder with the upper entrance, and didn't have good results, but i probably gave up too soon on it. search for 'joseph clemens' on this forum for some good illustrations on how he makes that work.

at this point, i am liking walt wright's nectar management by checkerboarding approach. walt lives near me, and my limited experience with it so far is encouraging.


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## johno

I am keen to try checkerboarding, I have Walts manual but need to get to having enough drawn comb for my mediums
John


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## Acebird

johno said:


> OK Ace, I have about 26 deep boxes I use for brood boxes and 8 drawn combs per box more than 200 frames.


John, any change is painful in the short term. Wisdom says you endure the short term pain to be better off in the future. If you continue to do what you have always done you will not have any change, good or bad.


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## Daniel Y

I also have deep bodies and med supers. But I started that way on purpose knowing that I woudl convert to all of one or the other. After just open year and lifting just one full deep body. I have made up my mind. I will be goign all med. There are some possible negatives to all med manly the brood nest. So if anything I will use what deeps I have as brood nest boxes on hives that will otherwise be all med. this is because deep boxes have one negative I cannot accept. they are so heavy they actually discourage me from doing inspections. Even as a first year keeper with more curiosity than is good for the bees. I found myself quickly putting off lifting that super of honey off to check on the brood nest. For me that is entirely unacceptable. When inspections need to be made they need to be made. I don't have the same problem with med full of honey.


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## johno

Daniel I only use the 8 frame deep as the lower brood box with one med brood box above thereafter mediums for honey storage. As the lower box is never really full of honey the weight is not a problem, besides when inspecting the hive the lowest box is rarely lifted so I do not really have a problem. This also allows me to make deep or medium nuc's. I did have a problem with some of my hives going up into the new comb of the honey supers and laying eggs, I wiil try to prevent this by fitting an excluder above the brood boxes with a 3 quarter inch shim and creating an entrance above the excluder.
John


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## squarepeg

john, i provided a drone escape by simply drilling a 3/8" hole in one of the boxes below the excluder,(if you plan on making the upper entrance the only entrance), the hole is plugged up nicely with a queen cage cork if you end up not needing it in the future.


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## johno

Squarepeg I had intended to have a small hole at the bottom platform where the old entrance used to be but if that does not work out I will follow your advice
John


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## squarepeg

the approach you mentioned, and joe clemens also, keeps the queen from escaping in an effort to 'prevent' swarming. are you going to try and keep your queen in?


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## wcubed

Johno,
Made a mistake in my normal repro c/o timing post. Normally, the end of the first week of April. This season, three weeks early, or just after mid March. In a normal season, that would be the period of backfilling the brood nest. As long as I've been doing this, still have to stop and think about the 3 week periods (brood cycle) of the swarm process.

I agree with your reaction to Ace's recommendation to move to all mediums. Converting some of your honey supers to brood boxes would be taking a giant step backwards. You mention the weight thing, but that's not but part of the advantages of your single deep.
Off topic, here.
Walt


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## squarepeg

considering those three weeks walt, i was close here this year. my hives swarmed from easter sunday, or april 8, until the last week in april, about a three week span.


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## johno

Walt I do prefer the deep bottom box, but was considering the weight of an 8 frme deep full of honey which is pretty heavy for an old reprobate like me, but does not apply to a brood box. As for the swarming impulse I started removing queens and frames and made nuc's from hives preparing to swarm around March 22 and continued doing the same untill the end of april with the 7 hives I had. Fearing winter losses I had ordered 2 packages from Georgia so those were hived on March 23. However the 9full hives I then had cast swarms from May thru August when the 2 new packages swarmed, fortunately I caught all but 1 which settled some 30 feet up in a nearby tree. So I really need to get a handle on this swarming thing
John


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## Acebird

johno said:


> Walt I do prefer the deep bottom box, but was considering the weight of an 8 frme deep full of honey which is pretty heavy for an old reprobate like me,


It is too heavy for you to lift and you are having issues with swarming, so tell me again why you like it.


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## johno

Brian I do not have any deep supers so I do not have any to lift, as for swarming you mean to tell me with all medium boxes you will not have swarming issues? I prefer the deep on the bottom with 2 med supers of stores for a winter config. and I find the Queen tends to go down into the deep come spring time


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## squarepeg

johno said:


> Brian I do not have any deep supers so I do not have any to lift, as for swarming you mean to tell me with all medium boxes you will not have swarming issues? I prefer the deep on the bottom with 2 med supers of stores for a winter config. and I find the Queen tends to go down into the deep come spring time


johno, that's how i am configuring here in on a ridgetop in northeast alabama. 

the cool thing about that is, and if you've done away with your excluder, 

you can move that first super down below the deep after your spring harvest, while adding emptie(s) on top.

your fall harvest removes that top one, and the one now on bottom gets moved up in late winter as the red maples start to bloom, and is checkerboarded with the remaining honey in the super that overwintered on top.

anyway, that's one approach if using a single deep and medium supers.

edit: i think walt referred to as 'a half a_____ reversal?


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## johno

Squarepeg I only harvest honey here in july, so my first super will still have brood in it. A second flow in october is very small and can hardly provide winter stores so not much chance of a second harvest
John


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## squarepeg

yep, it's when the first super has brood in it that you move it down. don't worry, you'll get a lot more honey once you get some drawn comb.

i did my last harvest mid september. that left the goldenrod and other fall blooms for the bees.


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## Michael Palmer

While I agree with the premise that backfilling of the broodnest is the main trigger for swarming, this happens because there is no overhead nectar storage space. The incoming nectar can't be put anywhere else...either there are no supers on, or not enough. Surely CB helps correct this problem, as does reversing, opening the broodnest. 

But, there's another reason for swarming...aside from the repro swarm theory. Not all colonies are the same and they don't all march to the same drummer. Some colonies use swarming to requeen themselves. Oh oh...that aught to get him going...

Don't believe it? Is the propensity to swarm not genetic?? Are we not told that colonies with young queens will have a lower propensity to swarm? Didn't Root say that Caucasians would swarm at the drop of a hat...while he was at church? Don't Carniolans swarm more readily that Italians? Swarmed out when the Italians are just starting swarm preps? Aren't Russians just about the most swarmy thing you ever did see?

I find that some colonies don't respond to any anti-manipulations. CB them, split them, open the broodnest...as soon as they re-build their populations, they start swarm preparations again...even when the theoretical repro c/o date has passed. Now I've said it again...

So give them a new queen when they're one of those colonies.


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## Daniel Y

Micheal, It can be true that swarming is genetic and still caused by multiple reasons. Genetic does not mean just two genes. there can be multiple gens that cause swarming and each would look different and happen for different reasons. Now I don't know one thing about the genes in a bee that effect swarming behavior. but I suspect it is not just a swarm or don't swarm situation. not in a bee that has 19 genes that determine sex alone.

So their very well could be a backfilled gene. a I wanna reproduce gene. and I just want to live in a different neighborhood gene.


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## Acebird

johno said:


> as for swarming you mean to tell me with all medium boxes you will not have swarming issues?


No, I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is if all your equipment is the same you have less of a problem with inventory. If you have less of a problem with inventory you now have the ability to try checkerboarding or any other manipulation. You don't need drawn comb for supers but you do need drawn comb for checkerboarding. I know Walt says it is a big deal to have the break between combs. Shave a 1/4 off the bottom of the second medium and there is no break. The bees will make it one. Now the two mediums on the bottom is your deep that you prefer. Make some 1/4 inch shims if you want to use that box somewhere else.
I haven't ever done checkerboarding up here because I think there is a risk in northern regions. It is my experience for everything else beekeeping all mediums is way easier and I see no evidence that the bees care about that break between frames.


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## Acebird

Daniel Y said:


> but I suspect...


Is that the same as "I think" said a different way?


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> Shave a 1/4 off the bottom of the second medium and there is no break. The bees will make it one. Now the two mediums on the bottom is your deep that you prefer. Make some 1/4 inch shims if you want to use that box somewhere else.


This is one of the poorest suggestions I've read today. But, it's only 9:41 am


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## Acebird

In a way I agree. The suggestion was made as though no one would take it but it does eliminate the issue of a break between combs if that is a real issue. If one was in the experimenting mode you could set up equal number of hives with the break as those without a break using all medium equipment.


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## BeeCurious

There is still the "break " in comb created by the top bar, and bottom bar...


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## squarepeg

Michael Palmer said:


> While I agree with the premise that backfilling of the broodnest is the main trigger for swarming, this happens because there is no overhead nectar storage space. The incoming nectar can't be put anywhere else...either there are no supers on, or not enough. Surely CB helps correct this problem, as does reversing, opening the broodnest.
> 
> But, there's another reason for swarming...aside from the repro swarm theory. Not all colonies are the same and they don't all march to the same drummer. Some colonies use swarming to requeen themselves. Oh oh...that aught to get him going...
> 
> Don't believe it? Is the propensity to swarm not genetic?? Are we not told that colonies with young queens will have a lower propensity to swarm? Didn't Root say that Caucasians would swarm at the drop of a hat...while he was at church? Don't Carniolans swarm more readily that Italians? Swarmed out when the Italians are just starting swarm preps? Aren't Russians just about the most swarmy thing you ever did see?
> 
> I find that some colonies don't respond to any anti-manipulations. CB them, split them, open the broodnest...as soon as they re-build their populations, they start swarm preparations again...even when the theoretical repro c/o date has passed. Now I've said it again...
> 
> So give them a new queen when they're one of those colonies.


lots of good stuff there michael, many thanks.

i also see cb'ing as a variation on the theme of ways to not let them run out of room.

the requeening idea makes sense too. it is interesting that many of walt's hives requeen anyway, but by supercedure and without swarming.

and yes, from what i've read, swarming propensity can vary in the same way propilization and other traits can.

(and there's no doubt that swarming from the bee's point of view means 'success!')

if you are requeening your less productive hives, 'because they may have swarmed', you might be selecting for bees that swarm less. 

that, and maybe requeening caught swarms makes sense if one is concerned about swarming.

i'm ok with letting some colonies go into the woods, they can pay me back with drones.


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## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> There is still the "break " in comb created by the top bar, and bottom bar...


http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee Hive/DeadHive014.jpg

I am sorry I don’t have a picture of the comb that was under this frame but I think most people can see the semicircle shape of the top frame and can believe if I say the bottom frame was another semicircle just like the top. The bees didn’t care that there were bars in the middle.
I conclude that two mediums are no different than one deep based on my experience. Bees are not that fussy. Your bees might be but I doubt it.


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## BeeCurious

Those slightly drawn out cells on the top bar are completely useless to the bees.

You might think they're significant, but the bees can't use them for brood. So Viola!


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## Roland

Mr. Palmer wrote:

So give them a new queen when they're one of those colonies. 

Hmmmm. sounds like a page out of the old comb honey handbook, young queens don't swarm like old ones.

Crazy Roland


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## Daniel Y

On the break issue, from what I understand (that one means I have seen info take it with a grain of salt) It is the strip of wood that causes the problem. Now for the grain of salt. I have not yet sen it be a problem in my bees. Others say they have. I do know one thing that became a problem for me. about mid summer the bees filled that second deep with honey. and it became a huge pain to move it to look at the brood nest. And in fact it was enough to cause me to put off inspecting the brood nest. This is enough for me to say. no more second deep at the very least. I may keep deeps at the bottom. but it is mediums after that.

The different size frames is also a pain. But I am thinking that once a bottom deep is set up and a brood nest. I will not be moving those frames anyway.


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## Michael Palmer

Daniel Y said:


> I do know one thing that became a problem for me. about mid summer the bees filled that second deep with honey. and it became a huge pain to move it to look at the brood nest. And in fact it was enough to cause me to put off inspecting the brood nest.


Would another super or two have been appropriate, so that mid-summer honey went in the supers and not in the broodnest?


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## Michael Palmer

Roland said:


> Mr. Palmer wrote:
> 
> So give them a new queen when they're one of those colonies.
> 
> Hmmmm. sounds like a page out of the old comb honey handbook, young queens don't swarm like old ones.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Yes, no?


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## Daniel Y

Michael, I don't really know. With only having had one hive. I have only seen the one situation. I don't have a lot of seeing other things that might happen.

I started with a strong 5 frame nuc. I put it in a 10 frame deep body. I don't know if you have read my description of what I did in other threads on this group. but basically over the next couple of weeks I did a manipulation of the frames even in this bottom deep at first. basically it seemed to me that the bees took to drawing comb in empty foundation better. The result is I saw the brood nest expand very well. As soon as the foundation in the lower box was mostly drawn. I added the second deep. IT was all foundation at this time. again I moved some fraems from the lower deep up to the second in order to encourage them to move up. they did. so did the queen. As the bees drew out this second set of 10 frames the queen filled no fewer than 7 of them with brood. but then she moved back down to the lower box.

Should I have added another super on top at this time? The reason I ask is that as soon as the brood emerged from this upper deep. bees filled it with nectar.

I did add another box once I saw the upper deep was 80% full of honey. the bees where still slow about moving up into the third box (A med by the way).

With your comment above I am now wondering if I "Forced" my bees to store nectar in the brood nest??? I should have had that med on all along as well..


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## Acebird

Daniel Y said:


> I will not be moving those frames anyway.


Then you won't be checkerboarding.


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## ralittlefield

Acebird said:


> Then you won't be checkerboarding.


That's not necessarily true. I understood him to be speaking of the frames in the bottom box. Those frames are not involved in checker boarding.


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## Acebird

Daniel Y said:


> I did add another box once I saw the upper deep was 80% full of honey. the bees where still slow about moving up into the third box (A med by the way).


You were stymied because you could not move that deep frame of honey up into the medium box of foundation. It wasn't the bars that made the difference it was the fresh foundation. Try the same thing with all medium boxes only now you can let them build the honey cap in just the third box. Next season you can let them build a three medium brood nest and have a whopper or cut them down to a one medium brood nest. What ever the heck you want to do. You are not limited or stymied by having different sized frames.


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## Michael Palmer

Daniel Y said:


> Should I have added another super on top at this time? The reason I ask is that as soon as the brood emerged from this upper deep. bees filled it with nectar.
> 
> I did add another box once I saw the upper deep was 80% full of honey.


You waited too long to add a super. You should have added it when there was brood in the top box, and before the brood rearing was forced down. There's nothing wrong with mediums above deeps, and if supered correctly, you shouldn't have trouble. From what you say, there must have been a good flow. The bees drew out two deeps and filled the top one 80% before you added a super of foundation. Do you think the flow might have slowed...and that's part of the problem for why they didn't enter the super?


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## Michael Palmer

squarepeg said:


> the requeening idea makes sense too. it is interesting that many of walt's hives requeen anyway, but by supercedure and without swarming.
> if you are requeening your less productive hives, 'because they may have swarmed', you might be selecting for bees that swarm less.


Bees re-queen themselves in both ways...supercedure and swarming. If you prevent them from swarming...however you do it...they'll eventually supersede. I would prefer my bees didn't find it necessary to supersede every year. I wouldn't consider selecting a breeder queen without at least two year's production records. I regularly find three year old queens heading strong colonies. So colonies that supercede every year are crossed off the list of possible breeders. 

I don't requeen my less productive colonies because they may have swarmed. Requeening has to be done before they swarm, and in conjunction with some other swarm control method...like making a nucleus colony with new queen. This is done when other manipulations like supering and reversing fail to stop swarm preparations.


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## MattDavey

Michael Palmer said:


> ...like making a nucleus colony with new queen. This is done when other manipulations like supering and reversing fail to stop swarm preparations.


So Michael, just so it's clear, is this your typical swarm prevention method?

1. Reverse brood boxes and add super(s).
2. Any time after, if the brood nest is being backfilled, split and make a Nuc and allow them to raise a new queen.

By the way, when do you reverse brood boxes? Is it before Apple trees first blossom?

Also, what sort of percentage of hives continue to back fill the brood nest after brood nest reversal?

Thanks
Matthew Davey


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## squarepeg

i see michael, you were talking about requeening a colony that was bent on swarming no matter what, and before they swarmed. also interested to your answers to matt's questions.


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## Michael Palmer

MattDavey said:


> So Michael, just so it's clear, is this your typical swarm prevention method?
> 
> 1. Reverse brood boxes and add super(s).
> 2. Any time after, if the brood nest is being backfilled, split and make a Nuc and allow them to raise a new queen.
> 
> By the way, when do you reverse brood boxes? Is it before Apple trees first blossom?
> 
> Also, what sort of percentage of hives continue to back fill the brood nest after brood nest reversal?
> 
> Thanks
> Matthew Davey


My swarm prevention management is, as in CB, overhead nectar management. So, the first thing I do is super every colony with two mediums. This before the dandelion bloom starts. As in CB, the idea is to give the bees somewhere to store incoming nectar, so it isn't stored in the broodnest. We don't have the "honey dome" so popular in the CB dogma. With 2 deeps and a medium as my broodnests, with the broodnest at the top of the hive...I'd be CB brood. Rather I add supers, and then reverse the brood chambers at dandelion bloom. Early supering allows the bees upward expansion, and then allows additional upward expansion when the colony is reversed. 

So, #1 would be super, reverse, super, super.

#2, no not like that. If a colony has started cells when I reverse, I remove all cells, reverse, and bottom super with an extracting super...lots of additional upward expansion room. This stops almost all swarm preparations. But, there are always those that want to persist....even if you make a split. These are the ones that need something more drastic. These are the ones that I woulod make a nuc from...give a laying queen, andf use the nuc to requeen the parent colony. You canh also remove the queen and leave a ripe cell as my early mentor did. That works too...if the virgin mates and returns to the hive.

Very few continue to backfill


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## Daniel Y

Michael Palmer said:


> You waited too long to add a super. You should have added it when there was brood in the top box, and before the brood rearing was forced down. There's nothing wrong with mediums above deeps, and if supered correctly, you shouldn't have trouble. From what you say, there must have been a good flow. The bees drew out two deeps and filled the top one 80% before you added a super of foundation. Do you think the flow might have slowed...and that's part of the problem for why they didn't enter the super?


Mike, Thanks. I believe you have given me a lot of information on one of the biggest problems I saw from last year.

I had sugar water on the bees when I needed them to get 15 deep frames of foundation drawn. when I saw the second deep was 80% full, I consider brood as full also. I did add the first med. it was 10 frames of foundation no drawn comb. I removed the sugar water because I wanted whatever went into that top med to be honey. The bees simply would not move up in to that med. Had they already decided that top deep was the ceiling of their hive? the only way I enticed them to move up was to add the sugar water again. as soon as they had the first little bit of comb drawn in the med. I took the water away again. they then began to fill that med with honey. They did eventually fill it about 80% or so. I put sugar water back on them when I found this box empty later in the fall. they filled it again and I used the frames to put over to 5 frame nucs.

So I think I had a huge flow in the spring. a decent flow through most of the summer and I should have harvested that honey when I first saw it.

I see Aces point in that I could have enticed bees to move up had I had same size frames for that third box.

Frames are my biggest problem right now. and that is with getting 40 of them drawn this year in one hive. They area all spread out now and in use. Next year will again be foundation being piled on top of hives and that puts a kink in getting bees to use them just a bit.

I also think type of foundation may have been part of it. my deeps are pre wired yellow wax and the med are comb honey foundation. thin and white. Maybe the bees like the pre wired better.


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## Barry

Michael Palmer said:


> So, the first thing I do is super every colony with two mediums.


Just to be clear, are these brood or honey supers? Excluder or no excluder? I'm guessing no excluder and honey supers?


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## Daniel Y

Barry, this is as much an answer for you as it is clarifying I understand what Michael is saying.

He has a double deep brood nest. in the spring before dandelions bloom the bees are at the top of these two boxes. so rather than mess with either box he puts two med supers on above the two deeps. When the dandelions do bloom the flow is on at least to some degree. bees are bringing in nectar. but rather than putting it in the brood nest they are putting it in the space above the brood nest.

My question at this point is what prevented the queen from moving up and laying in those top two med? Excluder, timing they just don't ??? IN my case I could not get the bees to go into the med over but I had the whole foundation thing and my timing was anything but correct.

Anyway at dandelion bloom he then goes back and reverses the two deep brood boxes. this moves the queen down away from the honey giving her room to move up but not get into the honey supers. From then on as a rule it is a matter of just keeping space in those med supers. Not always. If they insist on filling the brood nest anyway there are other measures necessary. this may have been what I saw in my hive last year and had no idea what to do with it. I was not thinking back filling. swarming etc at all. I was of the thinking all I could expect of a first year hive was for it to build up and be ready to act like bees next year.


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## Barry

Daniel Y said:


> My question at this point is what prevented the queen from moving up and laying in those top two med? Excluder, timing they just don't ??? IN my case I could not get the bees to go into the med over but I had the whole foundation thing and my timing was anything but correct.


This is a concern to some, but perhaps not to MP. That's why I asked him to clarify. I use SC in my brood, but not in my honey supers, so I don't want my queens to get up into my honey supers and raise brood. This will create other problems. I could see adding two medium brood chambers above the brood pre dandelion bloom. I use mediums for everything.


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## MattDavey

Thanks Michael. I assume the supers are drawn comb, not foundation?

Daniel, he said the brood nest is two deeps and a medium. So part of the brood nest is in the medium before supers are added.

Matthew Davey


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## Acebird

Michael Palmer said:


> So, #1 would be super, reverse, super, super.


Looks like we need clarification on this:
You start off deep, deep, medium then add medium, medium. When you reverse what goes where? Do the deeps stay together or are you putting that bottom deep on top of the first medium? QE or not?


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## Acebird

Daniel Y said:


> So I think I had a huge flow in the spring. a decent flow through most of the summer and I should have harvested that honey when I first saw it.


Not the way I see it. If you are feeding that implies you should take no honey otherwise why are you feeding? Remember if you feed you are doing something that wouldn't be natural so the reactions are not natural.


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## Daniel Y

Okay I missed that there is a med on top of the two deeps as a brood. nest. Now I am confused as well. According to that I never got past having a brood nest on my hive.


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## Acebird

No Daniel you had a brood nest. It can be from one medium (the size of a nuc) to a whopping three deep hive. I want to hear what Michael does for a reversal with that medium in the mix.
Here is the way I see it: If you are a big operation and have lots of equipment of different sizes you can do anything to maximize production. If you are a small backyard beekeeper you are better off not complicating things with a whole lot of different equipment. Keep it simple and don't worry about not getting 20 pounds extra of honey. If you need another 20 pounds of honey get another hive. Most people want you to have two anyway.


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## wcubed

Ace,
Are you not the same guy who showed us a frame from a deadout, and drew some grandios and inaccurate conclusions from it? Your experience base is showing and it's not very flattering.
Walt


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## Acebird

Are you referring to post #80? I am more than happy to hear what you have to say about it. Why do you think they made that semi circle brood pattern?


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## Michael Palmer

Barry said:


> Just to be clear, are these brood or honey supers? Excluder or no excluder? I'm guessing no excluder and honey supers?


Yes, no excluder, honey supers.


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## Michael Palmer

MattDavey said:


> Thanks Michael. I assume the supers are drawn comb, not foundation?
> 
> Daniel, he said the brood nest is two deeps and a medium. So part of the brood nest is in the medium before supers are added.
> 
> Matthew Davey


Correct


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## Michael Palmer

Acebird said:


> Looks like we need clarification on this:
> You start off deep, deep, medium then add medium, medium. When you reverse what goes where? Do the deeps stay together or are you putting that bottom deep on top of the first medium? QE or not?


No QE.

Most hives are deep, deep, medium...medium in any position, bottom, middle, deep. I'm looking for total volume of cavity, not any specific configuration. The first supering is done before dandelion...tree bloom time Walt talks about, maybe a bit later bloom than in for him. These are two medium extracting supers. Two to three weeks later the hive is reversed. The top and bottom boxes are reversed around the middle. At this time the colony is checked for size of cluster, amount of brood, weight, and for swarm cells.If cups with eggs, or cells with young larvae are present, they are removed, and the colony is reversed. Another super is added if necessary...on top if no cells are started, and beneath the stack if cells are present. If there is brood in the bottom super and honey in the top, they're reversed when placed back on the hive. If the colony has gotten ahead of you, two supers of extracting combs can be added...one below and one above the first two. 

Colonies that have older sealed cells are handled differently. Cells can be removed as you inspect the broodnest, leaving one ripe cell taking great care not to damage it. You must know for sure that there is a queen before all the cells are removed. When you find the queen, she can be removed and the comb with queen cell placed carefully back in hive. If you believe the colony was ahead of you, and has a good queen and was just in need of more room, then cut the cells, open the broodnest, reverse, super...whatever seems appropriate for that colony. Not all colonies are alike and not all respond the same. No manipulation has the same effect on all colonies...no matter what that manipulation is. 

In a week to ten days, the colony can be checked again by interlooking...looking at combs from the bottom up by tipping up the broodnest. If cells are again present, a more radical approach should be taken. Splitting will usually end swarming...not always. In that case, the split can be used to requeen the colony. Splitting will reduce the honey crop in every case, so splitting should be the last resort...unless you plan on using the split to requeen. In that case you can elevate it over the inner cover, and unite when their queen has got a nice broodnest set up.


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## wcubed

Ace,
Yes, #80. Since you didn't deny that the pic came from a deadout, will add a few comments. My point was that one shouldn't draw conclusions about NORMAL characteristics from effects seen in a crippled or dead colony. Does that make good engineering sense?

You go on to offer that the picture shows no indication of reservation of the colony to expansion through the interbar gap. I contend the opposite. 

Understand that the expansion dome/arch of brood is a general characteristic of the expanding broodnest. Outside that arch is the honey reserve in the shoulders/corners of the box. What you have captured in the comb appearence is the delay timing or hesitation at the interbar area. They died or absconded at that point. (They typically leave a small band of honey across the top of the arch.)

A snapshot in the growth period is not proof of the delay, but the fact that growth was stopped long enough to capture it in residual comb after the demise of the colony does indicate some time passed. Had they been healthy, they might well have increased the population enough to grow across the gap in a week or so.

The delays are short in the population build up period of spring. Where it becomes problematic is later in the season when the broodnest is receding. If the broodnest is elevated in the stack, growing downward often results in completely failing to jump the gap. (They are not growing into broodnest heat rise.) This leaves the brood nest higher in the stack at fall preps. 

Those of you moving to all-medium configuration will see this tendency sooner or later. By adding more gaps in the stack, you increase the probability of some seasons having the fall broodnest elevated at mid season.

Walt


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## Daniel Y

Ace as for your frame. and your comment "If the frame below also has a semi circle" It is in the if for me. My observations indicate the frame below looks just like this one. An upside down bowl of a semi circle. it is as if the queen and bees treat each frame as a separate brood chamber. the chamber does not continue on uninterrupted but appears to me to have been so interrupted they started over making a whole new brood nest. But every frame of brood I have ever pulled from my hive has that arch of pollen and honey over it. the bees do seem to me to see that strip of wood as the top of the nest. It is in this that I do find some merit to the issues of med frames in a brood nest. I find the same issue is true with a deep frame as well. Just not as many breaks in two deeps as there are in three meds. Is this enough of a problems for me to not use mes fraems for the nest? Right now I am thinking no but am still looking at it. I am thinking it may be a hair that does not need splitting. The underlying issue for me is how long of disruption is it for the queen. if it is only a few minutes. no big deal. if it puts her of laying for a day. well that is another issue. The most productive period I saw in my queen was when she had 15 fraems to hop around on just like this. So if it comes down to no space or broken up space. broken space is preferable. If it is between large space or small space. I am not sure it makes enough of a difference.


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## sqkcrk

To me, a brood pattern which encompasses two frames one above the other indicates the size of the population of bees in the colony. A good sized strong colony has no trouble expanding its brood pattern across bottombars and top bars down into the box below. If bottombars and tops bars were a deterent to a laying queen we would see nothing other than full frames of capped brood.

I do see those too by the way.

What are the determining factos concerning where the queen will lay? Proximity to honey and pollen stores? Which cells have been prepared by the Housecleaners? The size of the area which worker bees can maintain at the proper temperature? What else? I'm sure there are other things I am not thinking of.

Then there are the factors which stimulate the queen to lay, such as a nectar flow and length of sunlight.

How do we best use what can be know to dampen swarming tendencys?


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## MattDavey

Michael Palmer said:


> The first supering is done before dandelion...tree bloom time Walt talks about, maybe a bit later bloom than in for him. These are two medium extracting supers. Two to three weeks later the hive is reversed. The top and bottom boxes are reversed around the middle.


Is "before dandelion" when you see the very first dandelion flower? If I waited for dandelion bloom (when most plants are flowering), it would be well into swarm season.

Can you maybe give a time in weeks in relation to the start of swarm season?


So to be pedantic, your steps would be something like this?

1. Add two medium supers to the winter hive, X weeks before swarm season.

2. (X - 2 to 3) weeks before swarm season, reverse the brood boxes so that the top box and bottom brood boxes are reversed.

3 a. If queen cells have been started at the time of reversal, remove them and add another medium super of drawn comb if necessary, underneath the previously added supers (directly on top of the brood nest). 

b. If no queen cells have been started then add another medium super of drawn comb on the top of the hive if necessary.

c. If the hive has already filled most of the supers, then add a medium super of drawn comb below the previous two supers and another super on the top of them.

d. If sealed queen cells are found, remove the queen and keep one queen cell, destroy the rest.

4. One week after reversal (max 10 days), check for queen cells again. If more queen cells have been made, then split by removing the frames with queen cells. These can be placed in a box above the inner cover with its own entrance and then reunited when a brood nest has been established.

Thanks
Matthew Davey


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## Daniel Y

Walt, If the greater issue with the breaks is that the queen is reluctant to move back down once she has gone up. could this be dealt with by reversing brood boxes? Sounds something like what Michael Is describing.

Mainly if a gap causes a problem. does it matter if it is one or two gaps the bees are faced with. a gap is a gap is a gap and the queen will resist moving down over it. Ultimately the answer is a brood nest made of one continuous frame deep enough to hold all of the brood nest.


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## Michael Palmer

sqkcrk said:


> What are the determining factos concerning where the queen will lay? Proximity to honey and pollen stores? Which cells have been prepared by the Housecleaners? The size of the area which worker bees can maintain at the proper temperature? What else? I'm sure there are other things I am not thinking of.


Where in the cavity the entrance is.


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## Michael Palmer

>>Is "before dandelion" when you see the very first dandelion flower? If I waited for dandelion bloom (when most plants are flowering), it would be well into swarm season.

Can you maybe give a time in weeks in relation to the start of swarm season?<<

Yes, before or just at the first dandelion flower...not the flow. I rarely see swarm cells at this point in the season. I do think it's important to have supers on if you're in an area, or a season that has a significant flow from maple/willow as we have here. The tree blooms get the bees going, and the dandelion flow fills the broodnest...sometimes a 50 pound or more flow here. That's when the bees start cells....especially if there aren't supers on yet. They used to tell us not to put our supers on before the dandelion flow ended...strong dark and crystallizes. Well, it's better to have dandelion in the supers than bees in the trees.


>>So to be pedantic, your steps would be something like this?

>>1. Add two medium supers to the winter hive, X weeks before swarm season.

X is difficult to pin down exactly. It would vary with region and year. Perhaps best stated... X= before they need it.

>>2. (X - 2 to 3) weeks before swarm season, reverse the brood boxes so that the top box and bottom brood boxes are reversed.

Right, but that reversal should be timed...in my area...to the dandelion _flow._

>>3 a. If queen cells have been started at the time of reversal, remove them and add another medium super of drawn comb if necessary, underneath the previously added supers (directly on top of the brood nest). 

Yes, and maybe even one on top if the colony is really strong and gathering nectar well. Doesn't hurt here in my area to seemingly over-super a strong colony. The amount of comb space a colony needs to store nectar is much greater than the comb space they need to store the honey that came from that nectar. 

>> b. If no queen cells have been started then add another medium super of drawn comb on the top of the hive if necessary.

Yep

>>c. If the hive has already filled most of the supers, then add a medium super of drawn comb below the previous two supers and another super on the top of them.

Yes, but these are the colonies with which I produce cut comb honey. Place a cut comb super/foundation below the two full supers.

>>d. If sealed queen cells are found, remove the queen and keep one queen cell, destroy the rest.

Yes, that's one way. Or destroy the cells and check back in a week or so.

>>4. One week after reversal (max 10 days), check for queen cells again. If more queen cells have been made, then split by removing the frames with queen cells. These can be placed in a box above the inner cover with its own entrance and then reunited when a brood nest has been established.

Yes. You stop the swarm, bring a new queen into laying condition, have two queens laying for a time...although separated. Population is boosted and colony is requeend when units are united.


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## Michael Palmer

Daniel Y said:


> Walt, If the greater issue with the breaks is that the queen is reluctant to move back down once she has gone up. could this be dealt with by reversing brood boxes? Sounds something like what Michael Is describing.
> 
> Mainly if a gap causes a problem. does it matter if it is one or two gaps the bees are faced with. a gap is a gap is a gap and the queen will resist moving down over it. Ultimately the answer is a brood nest made of one continuous frame deep enough to hold all of the brood nest.


Yes, that's one benefit of reversing. Also gets rid of crystallized honey left over from winter, and rotates up bottom combs.

Ultimately...the question is the bottom line. How does this supposed gap between stories, effect anything? I have colonies in multiple boxes make more than 200 pounds of honey this year, average was 108. Very strong colonies going into winter. Little feeding this year. Nucleus colonies building up in multiple boxes building big clusters, draswing out 6-8 frames of foundation, wintwering beautifully. So, if this supposed gap in any way effects the colony negatively...how?

Facts and figures please.


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## Daniel Y

Acebird said:


> Not the way I see it. If you are feeding that implies you should take no honey otherwise why are you feeding? Remember if you feed you are doing something that wouldn't be natural so the reactions are not natural.


Ace I had sugar water on the hive because that is what I was adviced to do any time I have bees drawing foundation.

Here are some more details on what I saw. I was feeding them sugar water in order to get foundation drawn. I had been feeding them for several weeks as I continued to add frames of foundation. I had a pretty good since of what they would accomplish with a bottle of sugar water. This was sometime in June. I woudl have to look at my records for exactly when. But suddenly over about a weeks time the bees started filling this upper deep with honey. I had added a med on top of it but they ignored it. I think partially due to it only being foundation and the bees wanted empty comb to fill. There is no way that the honey came from the sugar water. 70 lbs of honey from 10 lbs of sugar water. If so I have some great bees for you.

Of course this was honey with unknown amounts of sugar in it now. No problems as I considered this winter stores for the bees.

I was concerned about what would be happening with the brood nest at this time. but I also had that empty box on top that was being ignored. I know I was thinking either I will learn the effects of a back filled brood nest or the bees just don't have that deep filled enough o move up yet. I was also aware that things in my hive had progressed far beyond what I had prepared for in this first year. my comment on this group around that time clearly expressed that. I was not ready to contend with large honey production. in fact I thoguth I woudl have to feed the bees fairly well in the fall. I was just hoping to get them to draw as many fraems as possible this first year.

So anyway I forgot to forward the memo on my plans to my bees and so they had one of tier own.

I think in all I ended up with a collision of trying to get foundation drawn. a flow that was really good and no idea what to do to keep the honey at the top of the hive. In short I had no idea what I was seeing or what to do about it.

I didn't get any honey out of it but in the end this hive produced a full deep and two full meds of honey either from nectar or sugar water this year and where the source for making two nucs.

I still don't understand why the bees would not move up into the med. But they wouldn't maybe had it bee drawn empty comb they would have taken to it better. maybe I should have placed it under the deep they where filling with honey. I know from that point on I never thoguth the brood nest was okay. My suspicion is I spent the majority of the summer with a restricted brood nest but the bees still did not swarm.


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## sqkcrk

Daniel Y said:


> Ultimately the answer is a brood nest made of one continuous frame deep enough to hold all of the brood nest.



Congestion will still occur when the limits to expansion are met. And the swarming mode will kick in before that happens and swarming will occur almost no matter what you do.


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## Acebird

Michael Palmer said:


> I'm looking for total volume of cavity, not any specific configuration.





> Not all colonies are alike and not all respond the same. No manipulation has the same effect on all colonies...no matter what that manipulation is.


Here we see eye to eye.


> so splitting should be the last resort.


We differ here because we have different goals. Splitting is a way for a back yard beekeeper to increase colony numbers and keep colony populations down to a manageable size. What for you might say? You get the pollination services of the bees, some honey and get less resistance from neighbors around you because you are not intimidated so much by the bees and take better care of the hive. I think a small hive is easier, you may disagree.


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## Acebird

Daniel Y said:


> My observations indicate the frame below looks just like this one. An upside down bowl of a semi circle.


Don't forget I was there and I can tell you that you are wrong. As I said, I don't have a photo of it but I remember what it looked like. The frame under the frame shown in the photo was a completion that made a circle when in the hive. I can't this is exactly what you will see in your back yard but I can say what happened in mine. My experience however short has got me thinking that there is almost no rule in beekeeping that hasn't been broken.


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## Acebird

Daniel Y said:


> I still don't understand why the bees would not move up into the med.


It is not the bars it is the foundation. It is not their foundation and it smells different. Again, you were limited because you cannot pull up a deep frame into a medium box. It is crazy but you can do the opposite, pull up a medium frame into a deep box and then you might have had a configuration more like Michael P.
Daniel, it is not your beekeeping it is your limitation with the equipment you had starting out as a back yard beekeeper. We all had this problem because we didn't learn soon enough the benefits of using all the same equipment. It don't matter if it is all deeps or all mediums, you choose. Mediums are lighter but the equivalent equipment costs more. So make your selection based on these two parameters.


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## ralittlefield

Acebird said:


> It is not the bars it is the foundation. It is not their foundation and it smells different.



Perhaps, but then how do we explain that bees that swarm can be lured into a swarm trap by baiting it with comb drawn by other bees?


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## squarepeg

this is all great stuff. thanks especially to walt and michael for the willingness to help us less experienced folks along.

dan, i was in a similar situation this year, in that all i had was foundation to give my establishing colonies.

i chose not to use syrup, because we have plentiful forage here, and i believe natural forage is healthier for the bees. plus, i didn't want to 'confuse' the bees as to the timing of the flows here in terms of when to brood up and down.

but i saw pretty much the same thing you did. they went from making a lot of new wax, to not making any more and just filling up what they had, and then swarming.


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## Michael Palmer

Acebird said:


> Here we see eye to eye.
> 
> We differ here because we have different goals. Splitting is a way for a back yard beekeeper to increase colony numbers and keep colony populations down to a manageable size. What for you might say? You get the pollination services of the bees, some honey and get less resistance from neighbors around you because you are not intimidated so much by the bees and take better care of the hive. I think a small hive is easier, you may disagree.


Well kiss my grits Ace.  

Sure, I can see your point. And understand what you say. I followed that plan for many years. Split the bees before apples, pollinate, and then try to make a honey crop. Average crop was less than 50 pounds. Now long term average is 100. Most of my pollination money went to buying queens and replacement bees. Spent all my hours trying to fix my bees from splitting and pollination and mis-management. Kept small clusters that almost never swarmed...and made just a bit more honey that it took to pay the year's bills.

So my nuc management plan was hatched from that, in an attempt to produce a livable income from my bees in a sustainable way. I find it easier actually, than the old way of splitting and pollinating, and always playing catch-up. Way more fun, too.


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## MattDavey

We're getting off topic again, but for those concerned about having a gap between brood boxes, the horizontal hive is the answer! A queen doesn't have a problem going horizontally between frames.

I have a double width hive that I'm experimenting with at the moment.
See: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275870-Two-queen-hive-and-different-breeds

It allows easy access to the brood nest, without taking the whole hive apart. A larger area of supers exposed to the brood nest so backfilling must occur over a wider area (not sure how significant this is, but could help in swarm prevention).

You can also use different size supers on it. For example I have two half width supers and a super (10 frame deeps) on it at the moment. The half width supers can also be used as 4 frame Nucs. (Just thinking today that you could fit 3 x 6 frame Nucs.)

The disadvantage is having to have two lids and make a large base (or use two bases). To move it you need a hand truck/trolley/dolly or two people.

Wintering could be an issue in colder climates, but we only have a few days a year below freezing, so it's not a problem. Just move the brood nest hard up against one side.

More experimenting in this area to come.
Matthew Davey


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## Acebird

ralittlefield said:


> Perhaps, but then how do we explain that bees that swarm can be lured into a swarm trap by baiting it with comb drawn by other bees?


The foundation is processed with heat that change some of the chemicals. The comb that you should be using is brood comb not honey comb. So to the bee it is the smell of little baby bees vs a toxic waste dump when compared to foundation.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> So to the bee it is the _smell _of little baby bees vs a toxic waste dump when compared to foundation.


I guess it would be plain _*silly *_for me to ask you to back this up with some references? Links?


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## sqkcrk

He knows he knows because of his nose. I think there is a certain amount of assuming going on here. Assuming what a bee smells. Assuming why a bee does what it does because of what it smells. Assuming that there is any smell of baby bees left after any length of time. Assuming that bees don't work foundation when there are all sorts of determining factors other than those sited.

Maybe they didn't work the foundation because conditions weren't right. Lack of a nectar flow. Lack of enuf bees at the right stage of growth to provide wax production. Just to name a few.

Refering to foundation as a toxic waste dump is a gross exageration.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Refering to foundation as a toxic waste dump is a gross exageration.


Yes, the problem with written words...
It was a figure of speech. I use foundation myself but I would not use it as a lure in a swarm trap. Nor would I use freshly drawn comb in a swarm trap.
If I were feeding, which I don't do, I would pull up a couple of filled frames below into a box of foundation above to entice the bees (maybe the queen) to go up into the box of foundation and draw it out instead of backfilling the brood nest and swarm. Why would a flow matter if he was feeding? I think it is the smell you don't have to. Most people that I read about pull up filled frames into an empty box of foundation. I had the same problem on my first hive, like most newbies that start off with new "beginner hives", no drawn out comb and you can't pull the deep frame into a medium box even if you know it helps. First you need like equipment and then you need to know it helps. Smell or no smell.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Yes, the problem with written words...


The only problem with written words is the person who strings them together. Acebird writes in plain english, then denies any responsibility for the content of his message.


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## Acebird

Gees Rader I didn't realized that everyone on beesource is ignorant and needs you to translate all my words into your words so they would understand. Thanks for your help.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Gees Rader I didn't realized that everyone on beesource is ignorant and needs you to translate all my words into your words so they would understand.


Ace, I don't even _attempt _to translate your words into something others can understand. You post so much BS, its unlikely that even you can make sense out of it, taken as a whole. 

But I do sometimes offer a *public service *by highlighting some of your bigger _follies_. 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/follies

And thanks for providing more fuel for future _follies_. :lpf:
:digging:
I really like those _animated _icons.


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## squarepeg

is this beekeeping 101, or kindergarten?


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## Rader Sidetrack

It doesn't matter where you are, there are _slackers _everywhere.


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## Daniel Y

The problems with the written word are actually very well known. that is why they test readers for things called "Comprehension". The writer is not responsible for the comprehension level of the reader. just as I am not responsible that Barry could not understand the messages he deleted. I guess Barry thinks nobody should have access to knowledge he can't understand.

On the issue of bees and smell and it's effects on a bees behavior. 

Social behavior is one of the primary reasons there is interest in the Honey Bee Gnome. It was one of the reasons it was selected as one of the first things to be mapped.

Foraging is a social behavior. so there is significant interest in how it works and is it genetic.

Foraging ability is connected to ability to smell.

Quote from http://www.springerlink.com/content/t170h01p60268760/fulltext.html?MUD=MP

In the search for genes important for the regulation of division of labor, the foraging (for) gene seemed a promising candidate. In addition to PKG-dependent regulation of the response to *food-related stimuli* in a variety of organisms, for has been shown to be involved in regulating foraging behavior in both larval and adult Drosophila. (taste and smell ar both food related stimuli)

Also from the same paper
In recent years, the honeybee has emerged as an excellent model for molecular and genetic studies of complex social behaviors. By using the global gene expression methods as well as the candidate gene approach, it is now possible to link the function of genes to social behaviors.

In his book “Sociobiology: the new synthesis”, E.O. Wilson argues that sociality is rooted in biological processes, and hence associated with the function of genes (Wilson 1975). Nevertheless, sociality, like other complex behavioral phenotypes, is difficult to analyze in molecular terms, probably due to its polygenic nature as well as confounding epigenetic factors 

polygenic in a nut shell is that several genes or even several genetic behaviors all come together to make a single social behavior. this makes tracking it down to the genes that express it very difficult.
link to a definition of polygenic http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/polygenic

This is a link to the wiki for "epigenetic"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
here is my more common language explanation of it. Genes can change their roll or their significance over time without actually changing the gene. In a way they simply become weaker or stronger in their expression. This is one answer as to why a bee changes jobs over the course of their life time. Certain genes begin to shut down while others become active is one way to look at it. but all the genes have been there all along and they do not change as far as their physical make up. So genes do not morph into some other gene.

Again from the paper.
One model that has recently emerged as promising for sociogenomic studies is the honeybee. This insect, which lives in large social colonies, offers a unique combination of an obligatory social species with a relatively simple nervous system, and a good understanding of its sociobiology. Honeybee researchers can now use an array of genetic and molecular tools such as *brain EST database* (Whitfield et al. 2002), *various cDNA libraries*, *microarrays *(Whitfield et al. 2003), *high-resolution genetic maps* (Ruppell et al. 2004), *RNAi and transgenic technologies* (Kimura 2001; Farooqui et al. 2003), *and most recently, the honeybee genome*

Bold lettering is mine. but it shows that this information or conclusions are a result of many studies having been conducted over many years. Most recently and significantly is the honey bee gnome.

The impact of the gnome and the advancements it has made possible is significant. you will have to look that up on your own.

Again from the paper
Behavioral development in honeybees has been shown to be associated with various physiological and neural processes, (Taste is a neural process)

Genes that are likely involved in the regulation of division of labor have also been identified successfully by the “candidate gene approach” (Social behavior of the bee is not only thought to be genetic. they are identifying the genes)


The effects of cGMP and PKG signaling on behavior can be found in both the sensory and central components of the nervous system. These effects on nervous system function can be either long-term organizational, direct short-term effects on neuronal function, or both (Sensory is sight, smell, taste, feel and hearing)

Induction of feeding behavior is also closely linked to cGMP/PKG signaling in a wide variety of invertebrates.

PKG signaling has been recently implicated in both natural behavioral polymorphisms and social behaviors in fruit flies and honeybees, the details of which are discussed below.

In the search for genes important for the regulation of division of labor, the foraging (for) gene seemed a promising candidate. In addition to PKG-dependent regulation of the response to food-related stimuli in a variety of organisms, for has been shown to be involved in regulating foraging behavior in both larval and adult Drosophila. (this simply makes the case that PKG is in fact connected to foraging behavior)

In honeybees, foraging is not an individual decision but rather is regulated on the colony level, suggesting that in social insects the initiation of food gathering behavior is independent of the physiological state of individual colony members

The above presents a problem. If foraging is on a colony level and independent of the physiological state of the bee. is ti really genetic. Well here is where it gets tricky. It basically comes down to a colony wide stimulus of a gene. which may happen via pheromones.

The allelic variants in Drosophila suggest that variations in behavior are due, at least in part, to differences in the expression levels of for, which can be translated to differences in PKG activity levels (Osborne et al. 1997). We cloned a for ortholog from the Western honeybees Apis mellifera (termed Amfor after A. mellifera foraging), and showed that the protein encoded by this gene is more than 80% similar to the Drosophila for gene. 

Basically foraging is a result of how much this PKG gene is stimulated. Better yet look at this.

It is also possible to activate PKG genes via pharmacological treatments. In a nut shell a bee that forages when you want at the drop of a hat if you give them the right drugs. Okay not so good for TF thread.

This paper did not focus on taste specifically but taste related behavior of foraging. I have seen others that are on taste specifically and what is said in this paper is consistant.

Bees can be genetically bred toward both the eating of food supplements and foraging through the gens of taste and smell. they are associated with each other. so You have to use both of them together.


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## sqkcrk

Your Posts had no context by which their meaning could be understood. They could have been chock full of knowledge, but still meant nothing to most of us reading them.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> The problems with the written word are actually very well known. that is why they test readers for things called "Comprehension". *The writer is not responsible for the comprehension level of the reader.*


So if the "writer" just strings words together in a random fashion, and the "reader" can't make sense out of _gibberish_, the problem is _the reader's lack of comprehension_. Right!! 



> *Gibberish *is a generic term in Englishfor talking that sounds like speech, but carries no actual meaning. This meaning has also been extended to meaningless text or gobbledygook. The common theme in gibberish statements is a lack of literal sense, which can be described as a presence of nonsense. Gibberish should not be confused with literary nonsense such as that used in the poem "Jabberwocky" by Lewis Carroll.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibberish





Daniel Y said:


> Just as I am not responsible that Barry could not understand the messages he deleted. *I guess Barry thinks nobody should have access to knowledge he can't understand.*


You are quite correct. It is obvious that _Barry _does not want the world to recognize your brilliant mind. 

:ws:


Wow, _fun follies _with both _Acebird _and _Daniel Y _in the same thread! :lpf:


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## Daniel Y

Edited, Mark you are right I thought I was on a different thread. dangers of coming here via e-mail notifications. I was wondering where this conversation took such a down hill turn. nope it was not so. this thread is just normal for this place. I like this place. I can come here and treat people like crap. it is normal behavior


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## Daniel Y

Radar your point has no merit. I can make up all sorts of fictional situation myself.


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## sqkcrk

Daniel Y said:


> Okay Mark let me say it in littel words.
> 
> Smell and taste is foraging related. Comb building is foraging related. So if you can effect foraging which the above makes a very good case of showing just exactly how to do that. It is very likely that you can effect comb building.
> 
> I tend to give the children a pile of blocks and let them learn to stack them up. I don't think others learn by me setting in the middle of the floor putting every little piece in place for them.
> 
> My overall point is that beekeepers think they have been doing such a great job for so long regardless of the obvious evidence otherwise. You think you can find and use answers? You and most others can't even understand the answers when they are handed to you. They would get deleted because they are confusing.


I love your short Posts I tend to skim over your Treatises or skip over them completely. Short and sweet is what I prefer. Shallow and simpleminded as I am.

The Posts of your which got Deleted were w/out context to anything in this Thread which came before them and seemed to be in response to PMs which deknow had sent you, so Replying in public w/out Dean's part was confusing and of limited value. Barry is the arbiter of these things. Take it up w/ him through PMs.

I am only respoinsible for what I say, not what you hear. I believe that is what some are refering to. I don't think that comes across well in text communication, where the meaning of what one writes should be somewhat more accurately conveyed in a manner more clear and easily understood. Regardless of typos or misspellings 

Thanks for the tutorials. Luv u 2.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> I can make up all sorts of fictional situation myself.


Your demonstrations of this _talent _on Beesource have been very successful. :applause:


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## sqkcrk

squarepeg said:


> is this beekeeping 101, or kindergarten?


u no the answer

I know I don't have the intellectual capacity of others, nor the drive or interest to expand my base all that much, but, I believe my grasp still exceeds my reach, inspite of those who look down from on high w/ their ability to find papers on the internet, read them and regergitate. Let them work w/ Michael Palmer or Chuck Kutik or even Jon MacDonald for a week and come to some meaningful understanding of the Honeybee and me.

I wish I knew what the honeybee knew, ya know?


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## squarepeg

mark, i regretted making that post immediately after i clicked it in.

i wasn't at all challenging intellect, but rather maturity. 

it was a round about way of asking the posters to move on from squabbling like a couple of kids at recess, and get back to the issue at hand.

sorry for the confusion.

me thinks me posts too much.


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## squarepeg

and to your second point, i agree, and give much more value to the experience of those who have been at this for many years, and have had their hands in more hives than i will ever have.


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## sqkcrk

squarepeg said:


> mark, i regretted making that post immediately after i clicked it in.
> 
> i wasn't at all challenging intellect, but rather maturity.
> 
> it was a round about way of asking the posters to move on from squabbling like a couple of kids at recess, and get back to the issue at hand.
> 
> sorry for the confusion.
> 
> me thinks me posts too much.


I should have preficed my second comments by writing that I was not responding to your Post but to Posts of those disparaging my intelect.

We're good 'peg. No problemo Doc.

I appreciate a beekeeper who has a decent balance of knowledge and understanding and handson experience. One reason I like Randy Oliver, Wyatt Mangum, Jerry Hayes, Larry Conner, and others to numerous to name who write so well about their research and their experience.

There are reasons they don't participate on beesource.

DanielY, have u ever considered joining and Posting on Bee-L? Maybe you aught to give it a try.


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## MattDavey

Now that we've got the personal comments out of the way, can we get back to the topic?

I've been talking with Walt about the development of wax builders during swarm preparations. (Walt, Hope you don't mind me sharing this.)

He pointed out that house bees are used as storage tanks for nectar once the brood nest has been backfilled and this causes wax makers/builders to develop. This is important in that a swarm must be able to build comb. Before the swarm, little wax is produced.

If I put the process in a tree like structure you can see the major trigger points:


Excess incoming nectar
|
----- Causes backfilling of the brood nest​|
----- Causes reduction of space for the queen to lay​|
----- Causes less open brood​|
----- Causes excess Nurse bees​|
----- Causes extra feeding of larvae​|
----- Causes Queen cells​|
----- Causes house bees to be used as storage tanks​|
----- Causes wax builders to develop​

So Checkerboarding and Overhead nectar management work at the first level, avoiding backfilling of the brood nest in the first place. But this requires drawn comb!

Opening the brood nest is focused on the next level down, as it aims to give the queen more space to lay (despite the backfilling) and also helps to develop wax builders. Once wax builders are active, comb is more likely to be extended to store nectar and so backfilling is reduced.

With that, I've realised that I'm also looking at the second level when suggesting that maintaining proportions at 1/3 open brood and 2/3 capped brood is ideal during swarm season.

I think it's important to develop wax makers before swarm prep, but can't see how it can be done without opening the brood nest. (Of course the other option is that you fill the hive with sugar water. Obviously this is NOT something to be encouraged, especially if you want a honey crop!)

Comments?

Matthew Davey


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## Michael Palmer

MattDavey said:


> Excess incoming nectar
> |
> ----- Causes backfilling of the brood nest​​




I think you need to add another line between these two. It isn't incoming nectar that causes backfilling of the broodnest...its the fact that there is no overhead comb space for nectar storage. This occurs because the colony has hit the top of the cavity...tree or hive. In a tree, there's no one there to provide overhead nectar storage space. In a bee hive there is...via supering/reversing/checkerboarding, or what have you.​


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## squarepeg

matt, i am still in the process of consolidating my notes from last spring, but i did notice some wax building in my establishing hives (overwintered nucs) prior to swarm issue. (especially on foundationless frames, but also on frames of foundation in new honey supers).

all of these overwintered nucs swarmed within a 4 - 5 week period from late march to early may.

walt points out in his paper that the priorties are different for establishing hives, and this may be why i saw that.

otherwise, most of the observations walt describes are what i saw as well.

you are approaching your summer solstice there. did you have swarming this spring?


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## Daniel Y

I am very interested in all this limits stuff and still don't know anything about it specifically. I need to order Walts book but with limited funds. it is a no go right now. Actually I have reached a self imposed threshold only beekeeping. the only money that I will spend on bees from now on is money they have generated. No honey no money. sorry Walt.

Anyway I am hoping someone can make a guesstimate on whether I unknowingly dealt with this cut off.

I got my bees about May 10th of last year as a healthy 5 frame nuc with a queen that was already laying and out of room. I put them in a 10 frame box. They drew this comb out over about a two week period and started putting some nectar above brood. but for the most part this box became wall to wall brood. I had a second deep on the hive by June 1st that was all foundation. no empty drawn comb. the bees moved up and started drawing comb fairly well.

I did notice during one inspection that the queen was actually laying eggs before cells where completely built. eventually she filled most of this deep with brood and I had added a med above that planning for the bees to store honey their. The queen by this time had moved back down tot eh lower deep and i did not think there was a lot of risk she would go all the way up to that medium to lay. But the bees would not move up into he med. Eventually I put sugar water back on the hive to entice them to go into the med. and they did finally start drawing that comb. but as I recall this was a delay of about a month. From thr time I put that med on the rest of the summer, nothing happened in my hive that seemed completely right to me.

Maybe it was problems with getting bees to to take to foundation. maybe they had already started back filling the nest. I am not sure. But if there was anything I could have done to have gotten different results I would sure like to get a 20 20 hindsight education from it.

I live in a city so the likelyhood that there was no flow at all is not likely. But as far as I can tell these bees stopped massing stores.

I realize this year they should be stronger and more productive. I want to be prepared to make better management decisions in the coming season. I know this year I will be looking more at honey production and the steps to manage it than I was last year. but still their is a lot I think I missed and did not do. and I still don't know what that is.

The good news is that two days ago this hive had a cleansing flight that startled me. so far wintering seems to be going very well for them. Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## Daniel Y

sqkcrk said:


> The Posts of your which got Deleted were w/out context to anything in this Thread which came before them and seemed to be in response to PMs which deknow had sent you, so Replying in public w/out Dean's part was confusing and of limited value. Barry is the arbiter of these things. Take it up w/ him through PMs.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the tutorials. Luv u 2.


I suppose I woudl hae to receive a PM to include it. Maybe Deknow should share his words with everyone. Conversation I am sent privately I tend to keep private. it is a confidentiality issue. If Dean sent something private I assume he has reasons to not say it publicly. As it is he has had nothing to say to me.


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## MattDavey

Michael Palmer said:


> I think you need to add another line between these two. It isn't incoming nectar that causes backfilling of the broodnest...its the fact that there is no overhead comb space for nectar storage. This occurs because the colony has hit the top of the cavity...tree or hive.


Thanks, that's what I meant by having "Excess" in there, but you're right it needs to be clearer. Another thing that's really important that I missed is when a band of capped honey above the brood nest. It often doesn't help in having empty overhead comb space if there is a band of capped honey in between. That's why reversing brood boxes is done.

So the revised version is:


Excess incoming nectar
|​Insufficient overhead storage space AND/OR a band of capped honey above the brood nest
|
----- Causes backfilling of the brood nest​|
----- Causes reduction of space for the queen to lay​|
----- Causes less open brood​|
----- Causes excess Nurse bees​|
----- Causes extra feeding of larvae​|
----- Causes Queen cells​|
----- Causes house bees to be used as storage tanks​|
----- Causes wax builders to develop​
Matthew Davey


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## MattDavey

squarepeg said:


> ... i did notice some wax building in my establishing hives (overwintered nucs) prior to swarm issue. (especially on foundationless frames, but also on frames of foundation in new honey supers)...


Squarepeg, were they still in Nuc boxes when they did this?
Also, did they run out of space well before swarm season?

My thoughts are that wax building can start earlier if they run out of storage space when the brood nest is full of brood (brood batches, for example) and temperatures are still too cold for swarming. House bees are used for nectar storage and so produce wax. If the foundationless frames had drawn frames on either side and were directly above the brood nest, I would think they would build wax, especially in a Nuc.

I have not had any of my hives swarm, but they are all in establishment mode. Even the two queen hive. I have been encouraging wax building for some time now as I have no spare comb. I looked through mine last Friday and still have heaps of brood!

In terms of Repo cutoff, I realised that the major flow was starting last Friday. Because my hives have been already building comb there was no signs of "wax dumping" so I organised with my brother to have a look through his hives on the Saturday. 

When we went to one of his hives we found the queen was being balled in a plum size cluster of bees. (She is no longer.) We had a look in the hive and found queen cells. These cells were made of new wax and looked like they had just been capped. So it looks like Repo cutoff just occurred.

My brother had put on a queen excluder on last time he inspected by himself and put a super on top. (I would have discouraged him from the excluder). So anyway, of course they didn't go through the excluder and started backfilling when they ran out of space.

This is the same hive that last year, superseded and then swarmed. Although it was a few weeks later last year. 

We took the excluder of, so hopefully between now and when the queen(s) emerge, the flow will encourage them to start building wax and stay put.

Matthew Davey


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## Daniel Y

I have been able to read Walts book now.

First I will say it has a lot of observation and conclusion in it. Not that those conclusions will not eventually be shown accurate. but this alone is a very slippery slope. I think the best discussion I have seen on it for a while is by Michael Bush on his web site under scientific studies. http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm

It is simply an area full of pit falls. It is difficult to see for ourselves when obvious things are actually misleading.

I will say some of what Walt describes answers what I saw in my hive last year. I believe now that I was drastically expending the brood nest and the bees responded with an immediate and powerful reduction of it. They also never had enough time to explore and accept added space. My observations would support that bees are not immediately welcoming of empty space placed above them. I more than once saw bees lined up along the top of their upper honey frames peering into the new empty space. A few brave souls could be found on the foundation of the upper box. This actually went on for several weeks. I did not break up the deep of honey they had made over their brood nest. So I don't know if I had if they would have taken to that med better or not. I do know that starting a hive by checker boarding even the brood nest increased their acceptance of it immediately. I then did the same with a deep above them with the same results. I then stopped the method due to warning from other beekeepers. Had I continued this on up into the honey supers. I had the impression I would have sen continued accelerated expansion. I will knwo more this year as this time I am not goign to listen to the warnings. If I kill off my colony, at least they will leave a ton of honey behind.


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## squarepeg

>>Squarepeg, were they still in Nuc boxes when they did this?
Also, did they run out of space well before swarm season?

sorry matt, i just now saw your post.

no, they overwintered in full sized deeps, that had been reduced down with a divider board.

prior to swarm issue, the deeps had been filled with comb, and a medium super had been filled as well.

i think my mistake was adding a second medium super in between the deep and the drawn super.

i believe it created a 'barrier', and started the backfilling and swarming.

in the future, i will add undrawn mediums of foundation on the very top, or the very bottom, keeping the drawn comb contiguous.

(i like the ritecell foundation for honey supers, because i have a tendency to spin them too fast, and have frames with just wired wax foundation disintegrate in the extractor)

as for walt's observations, i found all of them to be spot on in my experience.

he and mike bush had asked for folks to experiment by putting in foundation and foundationless frames before swarm season. i tried it, and found that the bees will draw foundationless frames sooner and faster the frames with foundation.


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## Acebird

squarepeg said:


> and found that the bees will draw foundationless frames sooner and faster the frames with foundation.


My guess is because foundation smells foreign to them and also without foundation the bees can build what they want and not what you want to give them.


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## squarepeg

could be ace. i felt like it might have to do with the foundationless frame presenting the bees with a 'space' to fill in between combs already being worked, as opposed to a 'wall' or 'barrier' that the foundation presented.


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## Acebird

If the wall was an issue than why would they go right to drawn comb from another hive?


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## squarepeg

i think they would see drawn comb as something they could and would use right away, much different that a 'wall' don't ya think. i didn't feed last year, and found that most of the comb drawn for the year was primarily during the main flow.


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## MattDavey

An update on my brother's hive. 

They have not swarmed. In fact there is now quite a bit of brood, both capped and open. There is also now a number of darker bees in the hive, even a number of black drones. But it doesn't add up!

The only thing that makes sense is that the new queen had already been laying when the the old queen was balled.

No new comb had been drawn, only existing honey comb built out much wider, starting to be capped. So we put on another super and alternated this with the top super, so every second comb has foundation.

Matthew Davey


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## Michael Palmer

MattDavey said:


> This is the same hive that last year, superseded and then swarmed. Although it was a few weeks later last year.


Well, that figures.


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## Daniel Y

Having read Walts book. and considering teh discussion on this leads to that.

It is not just the prevention of backfilling. In fact that description flies int eh face of exactly what Walt is trying to say. you are again in a frame of thinking that is about preventing what the bees are doing rather than working with them. At one point Walt addresses this directly. STOP trying to make the bees do what you want. (Not filling the nest) and help them do what they want to do in excess (expand). Is is the manipulation at the time they are expanding that increases that expansion. it increases it so much that the bees never have a prayer of filling it back in. but when they do . let them. let them pack in nectar to their little hearts content. it will all be honey in the end. honey for you to harvest. Help them they can't make the deadline anyway. When they do miss the deadline they will expand again. You removed a lot of that honey making it easier for them. All you need to do is give them room.

Also take careful note of Walts warning about thinning the honey in the late summer. You can carry this to far.

Another key point. make the manipulation before it is needed. That means be one step ahead of the bees at every turn. add space before they know they will want it. remove honey before they make the decision to start eating it. Anticipate their next move and start the work for them.

That is mostly what I see Walt is trying to get across. If "Keeping the bees from..." is anywhere in your thoughts or words. you are already to late. Watch yourself for thoughts like, "I am helping the bees do..." I think you will find your timing and your focus will be more in line with the management method.


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## wcubed

D. Y.
I suppose you could look at that way, but I don't necessarily agree. I consider myself a pragmatist. I judge concepts by results of application. I don't need to understand all the details or theory of the principles involved, if on appication, the results tend to support the unproven observation. A couple of examples:

Observation: The broodnest expansion stops short of the total overhead capped honey reserve, and the backfilling of swarm preps starts.
..A one-season test of the concept was accomplished by wintering in an extra super of honey at the top. The results were less swarming, larger populations, and better honey production. The concept was supported by the results.
..Next step - try checkerboarding. The results of that test were a pleasent surprise. Almost unbelievable in a highly swarm prone area. 12 colonies - no swarms, more brood, and more production. Went all-up on CB the following season. Same results for several seasons. The results confirmed the preliminary observation.
..What I still don't know is WHY it works so reliably.

Observation: The colony preference for rearing brood in a deep and their use of the deep inhibits the storing of their natural pollen reserve below the broodnest (in the southeast)
..To test those observations, over a 2 year period, a wintering configuration change was made and a pollen box maneuver was added to seasonal management.
..The results tend to validate the observations. We now have reliable wintering, year-round brood in the single deep, excellent populations, and twice the production of contemporaries.
..Nobody knows how, or if, bees think.

Walt


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## Daniel Y

Walt, I will just offer this. Not written by me but I completely agree with it. It also indicates that anything that you have concluded from your observations has a very small chance of being correct. and that is each individual conclusion.

At most we know something that in fact works for you. May work for others. but we know nothing of bees. So it depends on just what you are happy knowing.

Anyway this is a taken from Michael Bushes web site
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm
And is discussing how something observed seems to have obviously been caused by something else. it in fact was not. not even close.

I love scientific studies. I have read many of them on many subjects from cover to cover. There is much to be learned by them. I often disagree with the conclusions drawn by the researchers though.

"Post hoc ergo proctor hoc" (After this therefore because of this) is the primary error in logic and is a trap fallen into by humans and animals alike. The big temptation of this error is that "Post hoc ergo proctor hoc" is a good basis for a theory. The error isn't using it for a theory it's using it as proof.

"Let's examine the error of this, first. Every morning at my house, the roosters crow. Every morning after the roosters crow, the sun comes up. Does this mean that the roosters cause the sun to come up? Because we can't see any mechanism to connect them other than the sequence of events, most of us would assume that the roosters are not the cause." 

Now in many cases we are far more convinced that an even proceeding is the cause of the event that follows with far less requirement of the mechanism. So much so that we often find situations in which people accept as fact that the event is caused by the proceeding event.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> Walt, ... It also indicates that *anything that you have concluded from your observations has a very small chance of being correct*.


_Daniel Y_ posts are usually good for a hearty belly laugh, and this one is no exception! :lpf: Do you actually believe even half of what you write?

Perhaps you should read further down the same page you quote from Michael Bush:



> I've always been a bit amazed and amused that everyone always seems to think that on any issue one person is wrong and the other is right. Especially when that difference is based on each person's observations, and most especially when it relates to something as complex as bees.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm


:digging:


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## Daniel Y

Rader, Have you read Walts book? 

One example of an extreme inconsistency. Evidently the bees are able to measure the volume of honey they have but completely lack any awareness of the volume of brood. Yet nothing supports that bees can measure and track volumes of any kind. Walt says they both have and lack that ability as that ability or deficiency suites his theory. which is it?


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## MattDavey

Personally I'm on the forums to see other people's experiences and observations. The theories are their own, and I have my own as well. I don't see the point arguing over something if it works. But it is nice to know why it works.

Anyway, I tried an experiment with a hive I have on a farm. It was only 8 frames and I only moved one frame up into the next box I placed on it about 3 weeks before swarm season. This was to see if they would fill the cavity or just complete the brood nest and swarm.

They only built comb on the frame where the one was removed from and abandoned the frame above the brood nest. They swarmed on Thursday.

There are more details here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?276389-A-hive-Post-swarm

The thing I want to point out here is the type of wax used for the queen cells. Most we're from recycled old wax. Only two were new wax. (Of which one broke apart.)

Here are the remaining seven queen cells:










Matthew Davey


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## wcubed

Daniel,
Perhaps I will learn to ignore your self-appointed expertise, as others imply would be justified, but your accusation struck a nerve.

My long-standing observation on colony control of population with respect to stores is that they have a unique skill (instinct) for maintaining population in proportion to cavity size and stores available. They do this by adjustment of brood volume. The concept is readily seen in 2 side by side colonies housed in different cavity volumes.

Preoccupied with reproduction in late winter, the colony overwintered in a deep and shallow makes all the brood volume adjustments within the deep - saving the shallow of honey above for their reserve. Insurance for the swarm prep period.

In the double deep, brood volume grows into half the upper deep. Again, leaving about a shallow supers worth of capped honey outside the shoulders of the expansion arch of brood. In both cases, the temporary expansion to rear swarm bees is refilled with nectar in the first action of swarm preps. (backfilling)

Another surge in brood volume starts in Aug. to rear young bees for wintering. Broodnest closeout starts a couple months later. Both these increases/decreases depend on field forage support, but when available, the colony normally maintains a good balance of population to cavity size and stores.

Where you find a discrepancy between the manuscript and the above, please let me know. It needs correction.

Walt


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## Daniel Y

Walt. You wrote a book to make your point. I am making mine in paragraphs. The error exists. others can learn about it or continue to follow a path riddled with such errors.

Beekeeping for centuries has not been able to figure out why the bee does not respond to traditional methods of breeding the best to the best and achieving better results. During that time breeds among other animals where developed. Yet not one breed of bee has ever resulted. Regardless of this evidence that it was not working. beekeepers persisted based upon the belief that it works for other animals it must work for bees also. That is until the mechanism of sex determination in a bees was discovered. That alone was proof of why breeding the best to the best does not in fact work for bees. Not when managed like other animals.

This is a case where opinion or conclusion is supported and accepted over fact. Truth is beekeepers where wrong. they where always wrong. they wasted a colossal amount of time because they ignored that they where obviously wrong. go ahead and start listing all the evidence they where right. they couldn't have been. that has been proven. Bees don't respond to breeding the best to the best. in fact it is a mistake. But beekeepers can't tolerate being told they are wrong. I am looking for one thing. do it right. Start keeping bees in a way that works. then I will consider you have found something.

So this is not about you or your book. it is about how deeply beekeepers in general have their heads up. Anyone anywhere that starts spouting off to me how well they keep bees just got put in the colossal idiot file. There is not a bee in existence that is being kept well. And failure to know that makes most to stupid for me to listen to.

I do not consider you among them. You obviously recognize a problem and have gone to great lengths to understand the prevention of those problems. Maybe not so much the causes.

That is like standing at the head of a long line of crippled people handing out crutches. But never making any effort to prevent people from becoming crippled. Two different jobs. one is far more complex than the other.


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## Barry

Daniel Y said:


> So this is not about you or your book. it is about how deeply beekeepers in general have their heads up. Anyone anywhere that starts spouting off to me how well they keep bees just got put in the colossal idiot file. There is not a bee in existence that is being kept well. And failure to know that makes most to stupid for me to listen to.


You probably don't perceive yourself as one of these "beekeepers in general" I'm guessing.


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## Acebird

wcubed said:


> Observation: The colony preference for rearing brood in a deep and their use of the deep inhibits the storing of their natural pollen reserve below the broodnest (in the southeast)


I have a hunch that the farther north you go the more pollen you will find below the brood nest. It could be the bees not only use the pollen as food but also insulation. Maybe the lack of pollen in a single 5 frame nuc lowers the bees chance of survival because of the lack of pollen below. These are all hunches.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> So this is not about you or your book. it is about how deeply beekeepers in general have their heads up. Anyone anywhere that starts spouting off to me how well they keep bees just got put in the* colossal idiot file*. There is not a bee in existence that is being kept well. And failure to know that makes most *to stupid for me to listen to*.


_Daniel Ys _words above are coming from a guy that is "too stupid" to recognize that using his State of Nevada employer owned vehicle (University of Nevada) for _personal use_, in violation of Nevada law, is a *criminal *act. In fact, he even boasts in other Beesource threads about using this state vehicle to gather "free" beekeeping supplies, then says its OK because some of his fellow workers also do it. 

The sordid details are in this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?264380-Beekeeping-is-a-very-cheap-hobby/page10
The details are spread over several posts starting at post #192.

And now _Daniel Y_ says _Walt _is in the "colossal idiot file". Huh. I invite you to judge for yourselves. 


:ws:


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## squarepeg

Barry said:


> You probably don't perceive yourself as one of these "beekeepers in general" I'm guessing.


it must be really difficult to be the only sane person in a world where everyone else is crazy.


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## Barry

Oct. 28th, 2012. Speaks for itself.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275563-Frankenstorm&p=862396#post862396


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## Daniel Y

Rader are you capable of forming an opinion about anything but me?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> Rader are you capable of forming an opinion about anything but me?


Absolutely.  Just ask Ace! :lookout:


_I won't be surprised if this goes over your head, Daniel, but here it is anyway_. Its perfectly OK to have a difference of opinion in how to manage (or not manage) bees. You certainly do not have to agree with Walt's conclusions, and you can certainly point out where Walt went wrong in your opinion. Walt even invited you to do that. 

But when, in response, you start tossing out insulting epithets like "_colossal idiot_", and "_too stupid to listen to_", in reference to an _experienced _Beesource member who has done nothing more than provide his beekeeping observations and conclusions, you *lose all* credibility. And then I will post your past _brilliant comment_s and highlight just how _foolish _you are. 

I can't believe you actually like looking foolish ... so why don't you change your behavior? :scratch:


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## Roland

Walt and I argue alot about his conclusions, but never about his observations. In this case, I back him entirely.

As for all of us being crazy and stupid, we must have been doing it all wrong for the last 160 years. 

Crazy Roland


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## Daniel Y

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Absolutely.  Just ask Ace! :lookout:
> 
> 
> _I won't be surprised if this goes over your head, Daniel, but here it is anyway_. Its perfectly OK to have a difference of opinion in how to manage (or not manage) bees. You certainly do not have to agree with Walt's conclusions, and you can certainly point out where Walt went wrong in your opinion. Walt even invited you to do that.
> 
> But when, in response, you start tossing out insulting epithets like "_colossal idiot_", and "_too stupid to listen to_", in reference to an _experienced _Beesource member who has done nothing more than provide his beekeeping observations and conclusions, you *lose all* credibility. And then I will post your past _brilliant comment_s and highlight just how _foolish _you are.
> 
> I can't believe you actually like looking foolish ... so why don't you change your behavior? :scratch:


Rader, Nothing I said about Stupid had anything to do with Walt. It has to do with stupid people that can't apply any thought to what they say. In fact it is not directed at anyone but would apply to anyone that makes pointless comments. Like making a thread about others opinions rather than the subject. And rather than forming a counter point simply attack the person. So what you disagree. I don't care. You think I'm an idiot because I pass on a perfectly well known bit of information. You are not calling me wrong. Except you think i am wrong in agreeing with what others have proven to be right.

It is about like telling me you think I am arrogant, opinionated and an idiot because I believe gravity exists. Okay feel free. I didn't discover it. I didn't say it exists. I just listened to the people that teach it exists and agreed with them.

I have never seen a group so violently opposed to information. You can't attack the point. so you attack the person. Now that just wreaks with intelligence let me tell you. I am just run over with awe.


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## Acebird

Daniel Y said:


> You can't attack the point. so you attack the person.


Daniel, it is Raders way. Your going to find it very difficult responding to him with more intelligence.
When I saw your post I knew what you were saying but I also knew it would be taken the wrong way. If you stop responding to his nonsense he will move on to somebody else.


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## Daniel Y

Walt, I read your book. and to you directly I thnk you for the time and effort. I know it is not knew to you to hear that the way the book is written is confusing. I found it to be also.
I do not question your observations. In fact I full intend to explore them for myself. In other words I believe you saw what you say you saw ans it had the repeatability that you report. What is in question and not because I say so but because conclusions are prone to error. Is what caused those behaviors you observed. I believe you have watched time and again bees remove honey from the hive and fill it with brood. this I accept as fact. What is suspect is the conclusion they are doing it to produce brood. Brood could be a side effect. And proving it one way or another could be critical. It is critical to our ability to understand the bee. 
Regardless of what anyone else said or how my comments may have struck you nerves. nothing I have said is intended to be a comment on yrou intelligence your ability to observe. It is that yoru observations have so far stopped at that. observations. and the work is far from complete. I don't think you have been given adequate consideration. I think others should be taking up on this and looking for the mechanisms. but that is just me. I don't think you can do it alone. I don't think the beekeeping as a whole will get behind you. and that is my ***** if I have one. And ti is not really a *****. I don't care if beekeepers ever figure out one more thing. If they don't and I am talking about beekeepers as a whole, it is due in large to their own ignorance. and determination to stay in the rut they are in. If anything my comments came from an unfairness that I see you are being subjected to. a justifiable one? maybe. I think beekeeping is tired of seeing one more promise of better days and then seeing nothing. or worse being punished for trying it. And you are amidst that weather you deserve it or not.

Anyway all fo this to me is a wste of time. nobody is goign to take up a converstaion on a subject and actually chew the issue over. They jsut resort to insults. Enjoy it I will be looking for answers. I am just not comfortable with leaving you thinking my comments have been an attack on you or your observations. If you take it as so All I can ask is your forgiveness. they are not intended to be. And I can't do more than that.


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## honeyman46408

Daniel Y said:


> Anyway all fo this to me is a wste of time. nobody is goign to take up a converstaion on a subject and actually chew the issue over. They jsut resort to insults. Enjoy it I will be looking for answers. I am just not comfortable with leaving you thinking my comments have been an attack on you or your observations. If you take it as so All I can ask is your forgiveness. they are not intended to be. And I can't do more than that.


:digging:and the hole is getting deeper so lets let ease up a bit ¡¡¡!!! this 101 so KISS folks


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