# Ideas To Prevent Top Bar Cross Comb



## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

I really like the Top Bar Hive concept, but keep on seeing time after time where folks end up with comb problems (i.e. cross comb). Another objection is the difficulty of extracting honey, while trying to save the comb. I had this idea of using some sort of wire mesh to provide a guide for the bees and reinforcement for the comb. It would simply require a piece of wire mesh fastened to a top bar. I know bees will built comb around things so why wouldn't this work? I drew something (below), and used chain link fence for the pattern, just because that's what I had handy for drafting, but if I did this I would use something much more light weight. For fastening, I think I would just staple the mesh to the top bar. Also, I don't know that I would run this the full depth of the frame. 











Thoughts? Any other crazy ideas out there?


----------



## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

That might be heard to keep flat in the hive, most light wire comes in a roll. It would also be a pain when you want to cut out queen cells, or trim comb. That said, I would give it a try on a half dozen bars and see for yourself how it works. It still think a straight wooden comb guide is the best all around. If I was to try extracting my TBH combs, then I would consider surrounding the comb with mesh and then spinning it out.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> Thoughts? Any other crazy ideas out there?


You could make a TBH with vertical sides - a _Tanzanian _Top Bar Hive. And if you made the sides 18 3/8" inside measurement, then you could use ready made bars and wire them for support. And, if you chose, you could add a thin layer of wax to embed the wires in. This wax could just be a "starter strip", or you could be _really radical_ and use wax that went all the way to the bottom part of the "bar" assembly.

If you made this TTBH about 48" long, you could even call it a 'horizontal framed hive' (HFH). :lookout:


----------



## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

Duncan151 said:


> That might be heard to keep flat in the hive, most light wire comes in a roll...
> 
> That said, I would give it a try on a half dozen bars and see for yourself how it works. It still think a straight wooden comb guide is the best all around.


Good point. I'd look around to see what gauge mesh I would need that is light enough, yet stiff enough to keep it straight. A wood guide sounds good and it is still always in the back of my mind, but I keep on finding situations where such guides don't always work. 




Rader Sidetrack said:


> You could make a TBH with vertical sides - a _Tanzanian _Top Bar Hive. And if you made the sides 18 3/8" inside measurement, then you could use ready made bars and wire them for support. And, if you chose, you could add a thin layer of wax to embed the wires in. This wax could just be a "starter strip", or you could be _really radical_ and use wax that went all the way to the bottom part of the "bar" assembly.
> 
> If you made this TTBH about 48" long, you could even call it a 'horizontal framed hive' (HFH). :lookout:


Yes, and yes. The top drawing in my first post is for a Tanzanian TBH. This is what I have and it is essentially a long Langstroth. It currently has a mixture of Lang frames and top bars, but I'll end up converting to Top bars only. Anyhow, waxing the wire sounds good. 

Any other input? I may give some of this a shot.


----------



## Chuck Jachens (Feb 22, 2016)

I have TBHs and with good management I dont have any problems with cross combs. Yes it takes some time in the beginning when they are build comb to fill the hive. as long as you put new bars between two bars of drawn comb, they will draw straight comb.

I would worry if the wire mesh would leach into the wax and honey. Is it food grade and able to handle the pH of honey?

TBH advantage is cycling out the wax with the honey harvest.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I have hot glued starter sips of plastic foundation, .....it's not worth the effort


----------



## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

Harley Craig said:


> I have hot glued starter sips of plastic foundation, .....it's not worth the effort


Thanks for the input. I've seen online info indicating the bees don't necessarily follow starter strip guides. Is that what you are experiencing?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Bees do not innately want to follow or not follow wire. Wire does not act as a comb guide. It will give the comb more strength if you get them to draw the comb through the wire, but the wire does not induce them to do that or not do that. They hang from the top bars and tend to build comb from edges on the top bars. If the wire lines up with those edges it will be incorporated into the comb. If it does not, it will not be incorporated into the comb. You can (though I would not) use foundation in a top bar hive. Just cut a groove in the top bar and wax the foundation into the groove.


----------



## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

That was one of my biggest questions. What if I dipped the wire in wax? Do you think the bees would be more inclined to recognize it as a comb guide?


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

JeronimoJC said:


> Thanks for the input. I've seen online info indicating the bees don't necessarily follow starter strip guides. Is that what you are experiencing?


they follow waxed plastic foundation just fine especially if it's 2-3 in wide strip, it's just not worth the trouble IMO. Just put regular guides in there and if they start to curve, you have to slice and straighten... The only people who have trouble with cross comb is the ones who dump them in a box and don't check on them for months on end. YOu will have the same problem with any style hive with a foundationless system, if you don't check and correct frequently.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>That was one of my biggest questions. What if I dipped the wire in wax? Do you think the bees would be more inclined to recognize it as a comb guide?

I have not tried it. Probably it would help. I guess I don't have that much problem with crosscomb. A good triangular guide seems to work fine.


----------



## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

The best way to prevent cross comb is to manage your hive. Get in there and make sure the first 5 or so bars get drawn good and straight then keep a straight piece of comb towards the back of the expansion area.


----------



## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

Thank you guys for the input. I was attempting to address a few things with this, besides cross comb. I should have explained better. These other things include broken comb and honey extraction. I see lots of TBH folks dealing with broken comb. If I the wire mesh idea works then I'll be reducing cross comb (by using waxed wire as a guide), I would be preventing broken comb, and may be able to save the comb while extracting honey. Wire mesh is inexpensive, and the installation would be cake. 

I should also point out my hive is 11" deep and my bars are 18" long (inside face to inside face). This creates some very heavy comb and a higher likelihood for broken comb.


----------



## MartinW (Feb 28, 2015)

Here is a link http://www.horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/layens-hive-frame-plans.shtml to a site with plans for a layens hive. I believe the comb size is similar in square inches to what you are describing and may address some of your concerns. Good luck.


----------



## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

Far from an expert, but if it was wax coated, it might be interesting to try. You'd have to eliminate any curl in the mesh. Then you'll still need to find an extractor you can use (since you've eliminated the crush and strain). This might be very helpful in the brood portion.


----------



## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

I should also point out my hive is 11" deep and my bars are 18" long (inside face to inside face). This creates some very heavy comb and a higher likelihood for broken comb.[/QUOTE]

1) I use a strip of plastic foundation stapled into a saw kerf. Works great.

2) A warning: the size of the combs will be huge as are mine and they are not even 11" deep. And IMHO it is a broad machine not a Honey Maker. From what I'm observing they put brood and honey thru the entire hive not the brood near entrance honey in the back you read so much about. I pic of bearding bees, that's 3 months after a requeen and they are gonna bail.














I'll probably just let them swarm. I got too many bees already.


----------



## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

Thanks for pointing that out. Have you consider a queen excluder and/or honey suppers on the TBH?


----------



## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

If that is your primary drive just make a long hive to take frames. It will be easier and achieve what you want more effectively.
A good comb guide gives you straight comb and the removing wax with honey I consider to be a plus of TBHs.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Also important to mention, if you don't already know, make sure any foundationless hive you are using is level. Not "close enough" but level. That's hard for me to accomplish sometimes as my yard is one big natural slope.


----------



## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

AugustC said:


> ...and the removing wax with honey I consider to be a plus of TBHs.


You have my attention. Can you tell me why you consider this a plus?


----------



## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

JeronimoJC said:


> You have my attention. Can you tell me why you consider this a plus?


The commonly cited reasons for removing comb have to do with the benefits of clean wax. Oil soluble toxins and disease causing microorganisms build up over time. It seems like some beeks go to great lengths to recycle old comb and others are happy to keep using it indefinitely. 

Of course, some people like to make candles. If you are already harvesting more honey than you need and don't want to fool with selling it then there is something to be said for culling a lot of comb. The wax stores better than extra honey.


----------



## Chuck Jachens (Feb 22, 2016)

In addition, the bees build new comb that is right sized for small cell. I feel it decreases the mites in the worker cells and pushes them to the drone cells. Hygienic behavior then lets the bees pull out infected drones (better than sacraficing a worker)

newer comb means less buildup of chemicals and diseases.


----------

