# bee math using snelgrove boards



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm using snelgrove boards this year to experiment with swarm management, raise a few queens, and maybe have some 2 queen systems going. 

After a put all the brood above a snelgrove board, how long does it take for them to get that sense that the queen isn't around any more and they should maybe raise a queen. Just wondering if it would alter the queen rearing math and inspection/management schedule. 

I'm guessing perhaps incorrectly that it would take a bit longer with some lingering pheromone coming through the screen. 

Any other interesting observations/quirks using a system like this?


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Snelgrove does not recommend immediatley installing the board. In his main plan he puts the queen and the empty comb in the bottom box with one frame with a tiny bit of open brood on it. Then the excluder and preferrably 2 or more honey supers and then places the box or boxes with all the open and capped brood above the supers. 2 or three days later he installs the division board and moves the queenless boxes above the board. He felt he got better cells built by not immediately removing them so far from the queens pheremones. I am sure you could put them above the board immediately which is what he did on his first year using the boards. Waiting several days was added to the procedure in following years.

I surmised that it could effectively simulate supercedure conditions rather than emergency cells. Maybe a subtle difference. With fresh laid eggs they have 4 and a half days of time to start cells without getting into less desirable older larvae and caste queen situation. He recommends checking in 4 days and any cell that is capped at that time be culled. That timing is what I use and have never found capped cells at four days.

I probably will be putting six colonies on the boards about third week in June which is just before my most predictable swarm preps time.


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

In my experience they start cells within 24 hours.

Enj.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Well, Frank's detailed response (thank you) got me curious with what I would end up with my incorrect setup. 

I moved the queen and a bit of brood below an excluder on Monday, and the brood above it (almost 2 boxes) with a few frames of food). 3 boxes below the excluder with the queen, 2 above it. On Tuesday I replaced the excluder with a snelgrove board. 

When I looked a few minutes ago, I didn't find one queen cell above the snelgrove board. I found eggs (she's been busy) in the bottom 2 boxes. 

So I put an excluder above the 2nd box, confining the queen to the bottom 2 boxes, added a super below the board (to put more distance between the queen and queenless section, and took a frame with eggs and put it in the top box.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

You need the added separation of the excluder plus several honey supers between the queenright box and the box(es) of brood you wish to start queen cells in. Simply moving them above an excluder or a snelgrove board apparently does not guarantee enough separation to start cells. I believe there is both trophilaxis and air borne exchange of queen pheremone. 

Good catch on giving them another fresh frame with viable eggs/larvae. Snelgrove felt that any older bees in sudden queen loss are more prone to start more cells but with some on slightly older larvae than young bees will. That is certainly debateable but it would not hurt to check and cull short cells that appear capped on day four. I like to examine anyway to map where the cells are on the frames so I dont damage them if I pull frames out to start additional nucs. I think around 6 or 7 cells has been what I find started.

Enjambres has posted a link to snelgrove's book downoadable on the net. I have one of his original books.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I checked my out yard today. I had put snelgrove boards on 2 hives there last Saturday using the same technique, the result being 3 boxes below a board with the queen, 1 box above with brood. 

This time it worked, 4 or 5 nice queen cells in each one, often conveniently located on different frames. Mostly capped, but a few not. Maybe the home queen is a super pheromone queen She has been a bit of champ for me, surviving one beekeeper mishap after another. 

Will start some nucs 2 days from now. I went through the other hives, giving room before I checked the snelgroved hives. Bad move. I could have put some brood above an excluder in prep of making the nucs up. 

I will check my home yard setup Wednesday following your advice Frank.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The Snelgrove boards have worked very well for me. I think I may try partitioning the box above the board in such a fashion that leaves 2 separated exits so two queens can be mated from one setup. So far I have been pulling out frames with extra cells and starting free standing nucs. There are lots of different games you can play with it! So far no swarms and honey production seems comparable to other colonies in the yard.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I've been pretty happy so far with them. I used them to save a couple of weak overwintered nucs this spring. To one of those nucs, I have just added a 5th medium box to it. The success of doing this seems to depend on how close the brood nest is to the weak nuc above it. Too close and the foragers from the strong hive will off the queen in the weak nuc. But you can't mess too much with an early spring setup.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Well I did an inspection yesterday of that hive that didn't make queen cells immediately after putting the snelgrove board on. They have made 5 scattered on different frames, some not yet capped. I don't think they started until I moved the original queen to the bottom 2 boxes and added a super between them. 

Did an inspection of my first new queen of the season. Looked fat and ready to lay, but no eggs yet. We've had good weather, so she had lots of flying weather. 

I'm realizing that I need to start labeling hives and keeping better records. Things are getting complicated fast.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The amount of separation required to instigate the workers to start cells might not be a constant across all bee strains. Maybe Carnies are quicker on the draw than Italians. I have had my Carnie type bees start cells when I could not think of a reason to. A string of rainy days and the queen will quit laying and the bees get the notion maybe she is not up standard. I have also found torn down cells where I am guessing they changed their minds.

As to needing more systematic labelling and record keeping; I hear you; just wait till you are another thirty or so years older and see how fleeting your mental notes become!


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I think I recall 2 weeks of a string of rainy days twice in the 8 or so years I have been here. Just may be a good place to get some queens mated. We could use some rain here. Got a day of it the other day, but not nearly enough, even for around here. I see lots of queen cups all the time just waiting for me to get behind in giving them space. 

I checked the bottom box of that prolific queen and it looked like the brood cluster was no more than 6 or 7 frames. I guess that is reasonable considering the time frame involved.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The first colony I split up using the division board I found too many frames with bits of brood on them here and there. I was not sure how to divvy them up; top box / bottom box. I have a pretty pokey spring and seem to get brood spread in little batches here and there not the picture perfect whole panels of capped brood. Comb with 4 or 5 years on it tends to get addled with drone cells, abandoned pollen, communication holes etc. The bees work it out. I am getting the idea that it is maybe better to give the bottom box a few new frames to fill space and put two boxes above the division board initially and move them down to the bottom as they emerge. I have some 2, and five frame dummy fillers that are handy at such times. Dont worry about slowing the queen down in the bottom box because you are sending down lots of maturing bees from what is up top. If you do the maneuver just before swarm time, the brood she is creating now will not mature in time to forage anyway, unless you have a good autumn flow. It sounds like you might have Carni bees.

Kamloops is beautiful in the spring time!


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm sure my timing is way off. I have 6 mating nucs set up from that one snelgrove division. Had to cut one cell out. 

I have a mish mash of bees, randomly importing interesting genetics at this point. The local genetics I have is a few generations removed from a Hawaiian carni, but she is as yellow as can be, and her daughter is as well. In fact her daughter is just starting to lay, the first laying queen of the season. I just put a frame with some eggs in her nuc just in case she didn't take and discovered that she has started. I have a couple of granddaughters of my first nuc headed by a Hawaiian carni floating around, but I only have my suspicions as to which hives they are. Need better record keeping. I have some Saskatraz queens that are russian hybrids and some of their daughters. I also have some other Russian hybrids from Saskatchewan. They are black queens. This year I'm hopefully bringing in some queens from Ontario from Debbies Bees. A long time beekeeping family that is TF. Between the Russian and carnis I better keep an eye on them. 

Throw all this stuff together, get them mixing with each other and with local stock, and we will see what kinds of genetic solutions start to emerge in terms of a TF operation.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Just an update. I've refined my approach to this

Day one, I put empty comb in the bottom box, then find all the brood comb and put it in an empty box, shaking the bees into the bottom box as I go. I look for the queen as I go a put her into the bottom box if I find her. Either way she will get shook into the bottom box or placed. 

Then I put another box on and fill with comb, bit of honey on the edges, followed by an exluder, then an empty box with comb, empty frames, another excluder, then the box with brood. 

Left it a couple of days, let the top box get populated, then replace the top excluder with the snelgrove board. My bees use their top entrances alot so let the foragers provision the top box for 4 or 5 days, then start moving them to the lower box. I find that it does take a while for queen cells to get started. I don't find them after 4 days. I seem to get about 4 to 6 cells each time. 

After the queen in the top box is laying I replace the snelgrove board with an excluder and swap queen positions in the stack, as I want to make more queens from my second year survivors. I now have 3 2 queen systems in my yard. I suspect the second year queens will be on their last legs, so a transition is planned with their daughters. 

So far the queen return above the snelgrove has been pretty good. Except the last one. I checked it a couple days ago. Complete chaos with runny seemingly queenless bees. I thought I should give them a frame of open brood to settle them down so I started digging through the bottom boxes for one. Started digging, saw a big fat queen on a frame of brood. Looked bigger than I remembered. Left her on that frame, continued digging, then saw another queen who looked like I remembered. So I picked her up, put her in the top box and reassembled the stack, replacing the snelgrove board with an excluder. Checked yesterday and she has laid up a couple frames already. I'll check the bottom box for eggs in a week or so. 

I have one more snelgrove queen to get mated in my home yard along with a couple of nucs. 

I am pleased at the initial quality of the queens so far using the snelgrove boards. Big and robust looking. Mostly quite yellow. The return of queens to mating nucs has been more spotty. So far 7 of 12 with emerging brood happening in a week or so for the first ones.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

About notes: 
The successful people I learn from use masking tape. Write what you did or are thinking on the tape with a black sharpie. (Put mine on the front of the outer cover) It will be there next week when you come thru. Take off the tape, add another piece, and repeat. It is VERY helpful.
Had to start doing it when I got where I could not remember which hive got split when. 
When you cross the 25 or 30 colony line your memory is no good. They all look alike.


----------



## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

I think this is similar to what we've been doing for vertical splits using two deeps, two queen excluders and supers. Basically, going from DDMM to DEMMED facing the upper entrance backwards. Thus far, its shown good success. Wind up with two queens and still catch the harvest.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Iharder; that sounds like you are putting Snelgove's theory to good work. I have 5 colonies so arranged that should be flying queens to mate about middle of next week. I haven't weeded out any cells yet; it is a shame to be throwing so many nice cells to waste but I dont want to rob my honey producers of any more resources to start nucs.

I had the bee inspector come yesterday morning when I was not home and he was a bit confused about what was going on in the Snelgrove colony arrangement! Last season one queen in the lower box re established enough to threaten swarm so I had to swap boxes. So far this year not yet but I am just getting to normal swarm time in my area.

Aunt Betty;

The masking tape accounting idea is getting to be a real need; not because of colony numbers accumulating so much as the beekeepers data storage system getting old!


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I'll have to buy some masking tape. I've taken to writing a journal so I can refer to it re timing of inspections.

I have been doing the snelgrove manipulation one at a time (one a week) so I can steal a little brood at a time from the hives that are building for honey. It will mess up the timing for honey production in my home yard as some hives will be much further along than others in regards to 2 queen system establishment. May be interesting to see how each one does relative to each other. 

I think I may have some insight on why some of my nucs are failing. The queen cells are often at the edges/bottom of the frames sometimes and I think they may get isolated and chilled. I've seen a couple torn down in this situation. Does anyone cut them out in this situation and place them near the top of the frame so they get better looked after? 

The way I steal brood is that I place brood above an excluder above a strong hive for a day. If I see the queen then I can steal a frame with bees (often happens), but I otherwise shake the bees to make sure I don't transfer the queen. I let the frames get populated for a day or so, then move them to the mating yard where the nucs are made up. Probably takes 2 or 3 hours from the time I take them off to when I make them up with a queen cell. Is this too soon?

I'm starting to make nucs with 3 frames of brood/bees instead of 2. I want to get my percentage of mating success up.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

So how did your snelgrove work go this year Frank?

I checked for queens from my latest batch. 4 for 5 laying so going in the right direction with emerging/mating success. So far I kinda like using stronger nucs to start queens. I've already had to give them another 5 frame box as they have completely filled the 5 framer with its empty frame and filling it with honey. After a week the 2 empty frames in the top box are already 2/3rds made. The cells in this case were located in the middle of the frame. So I will be cutting cells and replacing near the top of the frame with brood if they are located too far to the edge and bottom of the frame. 

All the 2nd year colonies in my yard are in 2 queen systems. However one of the old queens is failing and they are trying to supercede her. Twice I have taken a frame with a queen cell and started a nuc. She'll be gone soon and I will hopefully give back a mated daughter. 

I have to say the queens look really good compared to my efforts last year. Really big and robust on the whole. 3 of 4 I saw yesterday I was really pleased with. Thumbs up for snelgrove splits.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I placed the division boards on the 22nd and 23rd of May. We had some poor mating weather around the earliest they could mate so I am not certain when they might start laying. I have been staying out of the top boxes where the cells were. I checked a lower box this morning just to see that the original queen is not running out of space but she is good with some empty foundation getting drawn. I had one hive year before last I think that ran out of space and had started cells which I caught just in time to head off swarming. This year is cool enough that the bees are not busting the seams. Clover has just started to blossom but no flow yet.

I have seen eggs at 22 days from isolating the brood, but just happened to get lucky that time and saw the first patch. When did you put your boards in and when did you see eggs.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

The last batch I put excluders on may 14th, snelgrove board on may 15th. I checked Saturday and found the first larvae were just hatching. So perhaps laying on June 8th. Maybe a little bit ahead of schedule with this lot. 

I want to take a few queens from my overwintered nucs that are performing well this year. I was going to graft or do cut cell, but I like the queens from the snelgrove so well, and I only need a few, that I might just use the snelgrove board to get the cells. Will cut them out and place into nucs. 

I did cut some cells and put into a cell builder today from my second year survivors. I compressed a nuc on 15 frames into one 5 frame box. I had some good fresh comb to work with, there are lots of bees that had been working on open brood that I had given them. Took away all open brood so there should be lots of food for the cells they decide to start.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have a few nucs made up with extra frames with started cells. People are bugging me with when "will they be ready". When the queen mates and starts laying! If we had had unbroken nice mating weather I could narrow it down easier. So far I have had excellent success at them returning mated and all wintered a colony.

I brought in a few new queens from Tibor Szabo to freshen up genetics since I have no known feral or kept bees in flying range. The original colonies may even have been all from the same batch of queens so I am not overly diversified. I will take some eggs from the new queens and do another round on a few hives to requeen some of my older colonies. Have you tried notching cells to see if the bees will start cells at those locations. That would remove some of the criticism of possible delays while the bees tear down and flush out the larvae as they do generally with emergency cell construction. I would rank such cells very high for potential and they would be visually more appealing than queen cells where much of the internal cell space is hidden within the comb structure.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Where is Tibor located? I know the Saskatraz program have a variety of queen lines you can ask for. If you kept track you could get a few queens from a different queenline each year. Regardless, he is probably bringing in new genetics on a regular basis to try out so you may be more diversified than you think. The nice thing about that approach is hiccups aren't so frequent with genetics already integrated. 

I'm bringing in a variety of genetics but this can unsettle things in the short term, which in my case probably means more death being TF. However survival and production should sort themselves out eventually. My goal to bring in diversity, then let successful combinations propagate. At some point I will be big enough that new genetic material won't upset the apple cart too much. 

I haven't tried notching. I should. Alot of my comb is new, but I should do some notching on some of the older comb with eggs/young larvae. I suspect the bees have lots of choice to start cells, so on the whole are making good decisions. The queens look pretty good. I do go through and get rid of early runty looking cells.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Szabo apiaries located south east of Guelph ont. http://www.honeybees.ca/ 

Szabo sr. was head of apiary program for a lot of years at Ontario Agricultural College Guelph, and has a lot of published research on bees. Received Order of Canada award for contributions. I think he had some input to at least the initial stages of the Saskatraz project but I dont have first hand knowledge.

His bees are gentle and amazingly disinclined to rob. The allogroom fiercely when mite counts get up a bit.

The next round of cell production I will play around with a few things like cell notching and maybe put in a few cell punch larvae. They will only be for requeening as I will not start any more nucs now. We have had very little surplus nectar flow. The flowers bloom but too cold to put much nectar in them. Frames loaded with pollen.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Well I prepared a strong hive started as an overwintered nuc that has excellent hygienic behaviour for a snelgrove yesterday. Found the queen right away so no shaking of bees. It has lots of new comb with brood, but I notched a few of the older frames to see what would happen. New comb, notched old comb or random distribution across combs? Lots of eggs for the bees to work with.

With the Saskatraz genetics around, it will be interesting to see what damage they are doing to mites and what the mite drop will be. In a few weeks the UBC group will be gathering some mite drop and sending off to a lab and checking for damage. Getting into some interesting stuff.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Well I checked the snelgroved hive. Still no capped cells, well there was a small capped cell that I destroyed. 

Way behind the cut cells I started the same day. Takes a while for snelgroved hives to start making queen cells. A tentative conclusion. 

I checked to see if they started cells where i notched them. I couldn't see any evidence that I notched anything, I did notch 5 frames in a couple of places. Maybe 7 or 8 cells started on 2 or 3 frames. Bees made their own decisions. I guess I should take some photographs and document more specifically.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

lharder said:


> Well I checked the snelgroved hive. Still no capped cells, well there was a small capped cell that I destroyed.
> 
> Way behind the cut cells I started the same day. Takes a while for snelgroved hives to start making queen cells. A tentative conclusion.
> 
> I checked to see if they started cells where i notched them. I couldn't see any evidence that I notched anything, I did notch 5 frames in a couple of places. Maybe 7 or 8 cells started on 2 or 3 frames. Bees made their own decisions. I guess I should take some photographs and document more specifically.


From the 15th to the 21st is too long. Something is amiss! Maybe you had a stray virgin queen in there. I have never had a failure to start cells. Older workers will apparently start cells quicker and also are more inclined to use older larvae than young nurse bees. From separation time there is a five day window without resorting to less desirable aged larvae. Do you separate with 2 supers for two or three days before you put the division board in? Snelgrove seemed to think it was worth doing. 

I just finished checking seven hives I started for raising cells on May 22 and 23rd. and found milk brood yesterday and today for the first time. They may have missed a few days opportunity due to bad weather but seven successful matings out of seven looks good so far. Now I want to do the switheroo on the old queens. I have in the past usually just pulled the division board and ran with the odds that the new young queen would be the successor but this year I want to be a bit more certain who is who. One old queen has bees that are a bit on the testy side and I did not use her cells and want to be sure she is out of the race.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Oh there were some cells started, about 7 on newer comb, ignoring all my suggestions. Maybe a couple days from capping so probably capped now. Just way behind the cut cells I started the same day, which are in nucs now. It just seems they take their time starting cells. The cut cells must have been between 1 and 2 day old larvae as the first ones were capped at 4 days. Still some nice looking cells. The cell starter was most vigorous in looking after them.

Good to see your ongoing success. I like this system. I made 2 queen systems out of mine with the old queen in the top 2 boxes where I can have easy access to them. One is doddering and ready to go, but she can make some contribution still in this set up. Really handy when I need to steal a bit of brood with all my meddling. In August/early september, I will take them apart and overwinter separately. Really interested in keeping old productive queens around as long as possible.


----------

