# Wild Hive Sets Up In Our Flower-Pot...What do We Do?



## Spy Car (Jul 7, 2005)

So...about two maybe three weeks ago a wild hive set up residence in an upside-down flower pot stored in the back corner of our yard.

To my surprise they have remained. Since we are "pro-bee" we haven't disturbed them and they have returned the favor.

I guess my only question is do we simply let nature take its course...and essentially leave them alone?

Or do we do something to help aid their survival?

Can a flower pot be a good hive? 

Its in a semi-shaded spot but the coming summer is already brutally hot.

Sorry for niave questions...but I know next to nothing about bee-keeping...I just know our bee populations are under enough threats these days and would like to do the right thing.

Any suggestions appreciated.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

You did not list where you are............

I suggest getting ahold of a local beekeeper and they will transfer them to a better home.

Depending on where you are the chances of winter survival are low if they remain in the pot. (unless the pot is huge)

Or you can pick up a couple of deeps and begin the wonderful hobby of a backyard beekeeper. Hope you opt for the later option.

Good luck and let us know where you are located.


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Just how big is this flower pot? half gallon, gallon, five gallon.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

If you could post your location there's a good possibility that someone here will be able to assist. If not, check with local beekeepers or the county extension agent. If no one turns up then you're on your way to a wonderful hobby.

p.s.
Make sure they're honeybees and not something dreadful.


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## Spy Car (Jul 7, 2005)

I live in Los Angeles...so if the "cold" is the risk in "over-wintering" at least that fear is reduced (I think). I'm almost more concerned how much hot direct sun might beat on the pot in the next months.

The flower pot is not huge. About 10 inches high and 9.5 in diameter across the top. I'm no expert...but it seems a little small to me.

I just peeked inside the small drain hole and these guys look like they have already built a pretty elaborate system of combs. I was surpised how "bright yellow" the combs are. Lots of bees around the opening to the hive. Many seem to be bringing in what I assume must be pollen.

Sure appreciate the help.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

You need to be sure they are not africanized bees.

Get some advise from a local beekeeper.

Wintering is not entirely a function of temp. They need to store food for winter. In your area a single deep box should be enough to get through the winter.

Pollen means they probably are raising young and the population will exceed the pot soon.

Get them into a 10 frame box or nucleus box soon.


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## HRM (Mar 31, 2005)

Are you sure they are Honey bees? People use the term "Bees" to cover a lot of insects. A pot that size seems unlikely to have a colony of honey bees, though wasps would have a hive that sized.


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## jalal (Sep 2, 2004)

absolutely, make sure they are bees.

but maybe this is a good chance to start a hive?

you could make a tbh real easy


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## Spy Car (Jul 7, 2005)

I'm quite sure these are honey bees.

It's 5:30 in the evening here in LA and I just spent a little time watching the incoming bees bringing in the pollen.

Wow...these little fellows are working hard and bring in a lot of pollen. I'm somewhat amazed.

I'm trying not to crowd the hive but I sense no annoyance from the bees when I keep 2-3 feet away. They certainly don't seem anything but docile.

I suppose in this city of millions there must be beekeepers...and maybe even County Extension agents...but its pretty far from the reality of everyday life here in the city. 

Sadly, I think if I called the City, their response would be to treat the bees like undesireable pests and they might want to exterminate them. Anyway, that's not going to happen.

Hmmm...looks like I have a lot to learn.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

If they are in a flower pot and in LA I would suspect they are africanized. I would kill them.


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## Spy Car (Jul 7, 2005)

magnet-man said:


> If they are in a flower pot and in LA I would suspect they are africanized. I would kill them.



Just to be clear.Im in Los Angelesnot Louisiana. 

Im really hoping these are not Africanized bees. Does it take a trained bee authority to tell? 

Any simple way of distinguishing between European bees and africanized strains?


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## Walt McBride (Apr 4, 2004)

Spy Car, I sent you a private message.
Walt


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Very unlikely to AHB if you are standing 2 feet away and peeking in the hole.


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## briancady413 (Dec 8, 2003)

If you leave them in there, and they get crowded, they may leave,('abscond') or throw off swarms, which start new hives someplace else. There's no great harm in either of these.


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## Spy Car (Jul 7, 2005)

The bees sure are busy this morning. Every 2 seconds (on average) a bee flys into the pot with both legs positively loaded with pollen...with varies in color from bright yellow to deep orange yellow.

Got a little mesmerized watching them I must admit.

I noticed there seems to be a small contingent of bees who seem to be constantly on duty around the entrance (guard bees?). They are ready to prod the incoming pollen carriers inside...with either a head-but or by backing into them with their rears. 

Seems a little unnecessary as the pollen-carriers seem quite dedicated to the cask. Also notice some of the bees return to the hive sans-pollen...why so?

Must say...these bees are quite mellow. I watched for a long time (and pretty close up) and they exibited no defensive or agressive behavior. Didn't have one so much as buzz me.

Walt....I got your PM and will give you a call.

Assuming these are not AHBs...I'm assuming it's a good thing if these bees are allowed to potentially multiply...and expand the wild bee population? Or is this incorrect?

In any case...they sure are fun to watch. 

And its amazing how much you can read about bees...various hive constructions...mite control...pollen traps...solar wax extraction methods...all in one evening LOL.

This is a great site...thanks to all.


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## The Honey House (May 10, 2000)

"Got a little mesmerized watching them I must admit."

Yes, we have all been there!









I'm seeing a white suit and veil, a smoker, a few bee boxes and an extractor in your future!
Hope everything works out.


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## AJ Christ (Jun 8, 2005)

Sounds to me that Spy Car will soon be joining the ranks of bee keepers. Good luck with it.


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## Spy Car (Jul 7, 2005)

Thanks for the encouragement folks.

This evenings observation was quite interesting. 

At around 4 PM the activity around the "hive" was pretty intense. Lot's of traffic in and out...with a lot of bees seeming to be in a holding pattern...kinda like O'hare when it gets backed up. 

For the first time I felt like 6 feet was a better distance to keep away...rather than 2-3. Not that the bees were getting riled. There were just so many about.

But at about 6 everything calmed down and once again I could move in close. I noticed one bee pulling a piece of yellow "thread" up out of the hole in the flower pot. And lots of other bees working around the "thread" building comb. It was very cool to watch. The bee almost looked like a spider building a web.

The above activity does make me wonder if they aren't possibly already filling the flower-pot?

So far in my reading I have not seen anything on techniques for "transfering" colonies. If they are able to be moved do they lose all the honey and developing offspring in the current flower-pot hive? Or are there ways to perverve their efforts?


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Well if you decide to try and transfer these bees to a regular hive. What you can do is use some frames with out foundation and then you lay the combs that you have cut out of the flower pot on top of the frame (making sure to keep them aligned the right direction), cut them to fit the frame and then put rubber bands around the frame to hold the comb in place until the bees can attach it to the frame. Only other part of the process that would be tricky would be making sure to get the queen and not to hurt her. Once you have a large amount of the bees and the queen inside the new hive the rest of the bees should march right in like they own the place.

Good luck.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

If these bees were Africanized in an undesirable way, you would definitely know it by now. I've dealt with my share of Africanized bees. Sounds like a fascinating occurance and event to observe.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> Must say...these bees are quite mellow. I watched for a long time (and pretty close up) and they exibited no defensive or agressive behavior. Didn't have one so much as buzz me.


Keep in mind that they probably don't have much to defend right now in the way of eggs, brood, honey, etc. That will change once they're a full-blown colony.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Coyote is correct. The bees don't have anything to defend right now and therefore if AHB they can be gentle. That will change once the colony has something. AHB will nest in small cavities like a flower pot where as EHB will not.


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## Spy Car (Jul 7, 2005)

I guess I've been hoping these are not AHBs.

Still, I have been taking the warnings of that posibility expressed by Coyote and magnet-man quite seriously.

Despite their seeming gentleness at his stage my concern was deepened after reading the UC Riverside Department of Entomology Web site.

Not only have AHBs colonized the general area of Southern California where I live....the Web-site also states they are known to take up house in upside-down flower pots (unlike EHBs).

To quote UCR:

"They [AHBs] nest in places European bees did not, including small cavities near the ground like water meter boxes or overturned flower pots."

http://bees.ucr.edu/ahb-facts.html 

I'm feeling so conflicted as to what action to take. I have really enjoyed the hive thus far. The thought of killing bees (especially if they are somehow EHBs) really makes me sick. But I'm not sure I have the competence...or the equipment to relocate an africanized hive to a tbh or lang hive and then re-queen.

I have been doing a lot of reading on beekeeping in recent days...and if anything it makes me realize just how much I don't know. I also see why you all have become involved with these fascinating creatures.

Feeling so conflicted at this moment...certainly don't want a grown time-bomb on my hands. Yikes this is difficult.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

The swarm must die. Quickly.

A non-AHB swarm in a space so small is so highly
unusual, a photo of the swarm would make the
cover of the Bee Journals.

I certainly have never heard of European honey
bees picking such a small home.

AHB swarms are smaller, and they are much much
less picky about new nest locations.

The fact that they are not defensive is not really
a good clue, as they very likely have little to
defend. Little comb, no brood, no stores.
AHB swarms have a very similar set of behaviors
to EHB swarms, both are "gentle". Its only after
the AHB colony gets established that they get
defensive.

I'd go in with a full suit, taped ankles and
sleeves, the works. I'd be spraying soapy
water from a distance. I'd tell the civilian
homeowner to leave for the day while I did it.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Jim, although I disagree with you on feral colonies, I gave you credit for being a reasonable man until now. This post sounds like a hysterical grandma who has never been in a hive. I have found hives in watermeters, toolboxes, under mobile homes, going in hollow trees at ground level and then going down, all kinds of ground level, below, and slightly above ground. I am in NC and we do NOT have ahb.
The man says they have been there for two or three weeks prior to 7/7/05. I assure you they have set up housekeeping and do have brood, or they will never have and will die out naturally.
I think the man is using the proper procedure by watching and asking questions. The local ag dept. is probably his next best step. I imagine in that area they are quite well versed in identifing ahb.
SHAME ON YOU JIM


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The FIRST thing I'd do is buy a veil of some sort. IF they ever turn mean on you, it can be rather sudden and the forces they muster can be virtually the whole hive at once. On the other hand, they may or may not be AHB, but, as everyone has pointed out, AHB (Africanized Honey Bees) are much more likely to move into such a small space than EHB (European Honey Bees). And, as has also been pointed out, AHB are sometimes quite nice when the hive is still small.

I'm not saying they are or are not, but to not accept and be prepared for that possibility would be risky.

If it was at my house, I'd move them further from the house (in case they go ballistic) and just keep an eye on them, but then I'm a beekeeper.

The people telling you to destroy it are trying to keep you safe and they are figuring the odds. Odds are in that small of a conainer that they are AHB.


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Get help immediately--requeen the hive or kill it, it is your call. There are a lot of professional beekeepers on this forum, I am not a pro---just a hobby beekeeper.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

MURDERERS......It is so easy to just ask a local beekeeper or your agriculture extension dept. I would think either would be able to come out and identify the ladies.


First word said in jest, don't get upset.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Iddee, you just can not look at them and know if they are AHB or EHB. If you don't do a DNA test you have to measure body parts. Morphometrics can only tell you if they may be AHB. You need to do some reading on the subject.

I am selling my copy of 'The "African" Honey Bee' edited by Marla Spivak if anyone is interested. Check the for sale section.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

You're totally right that I know nothing about ahb, although I do know that you can't possibly expect all hives be killed off just because they happen to be in ahb territory. These bees have shown no hostility as of this time and to kill them off, "just in case" is advocating killing off all bees in ahb areas unless you can prove they are not ahb. Sorry,I disagree with this line of thinking 100%.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Magnet-man is right on target.

The "local ag department" mentioned by iddee
has no "idee", and none of the hardware required
to make a positive "ID". None of them do.
Ditto local beekeepers.

But we do know:

1) It is in LA
2) It is very late for swarms in LA
3) It is a tiny swarm
4) It is in a tiny pot

Why is there any argument about the prudent
approach for a person with zero beekeeping
experience? What sort of liability are we
taking on by encouraging this person to
even think about hiving this swarm, when the
limited size of the flower pot may be the
only thing that keeps them from expanding to
a "minimum critical mass" colony, capable of
putting up a significant defense force?

Insult me all you'd like iddee, but there is
a big difference between you dealing with this
swarm and someone who has never handled any
bees at all. Fuzzy thinking won't help here,
the evidence at hand is pretty compelling.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I give up. I know when I'm outnumbered.By the way, Jim, In case you're wondering, I would like to meet you one day. You're my kind of people. Keep up the good work.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Jim, I don't think he insulted you. And I think he's been around long enough to have read some good uns. Personally I don't think insulting you works anymore you've handled so many. I wouldn't even try. lol.

I was just a difference of opinion.

See ya,

Hawk


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Bees will be bees. They don't need to be AHB to develop an attitude. Even many EHB colonies will exhibit aggressiveness, especially if handled indelicately or when the weather is poor.

I am in Tucson, Arizona. I've been here for more than 10 years now. If some of the bees I've encountered here aren't AHBs then the fates are ignoring me.

I also kept honeybees in Southern California and actually began keeping bees there in Lompoc when I was 10 y.o. That was in 1966 and I began studying honeybees in earnest, when I was 8 y.o. While in Southern California I captured swarms from various locations, from steel access ladders half-way up the sides of 10 story buildings in Garden Grove to sapling trees planted in new housing tracts in Irvine and very many other locations throughout the Los Angeles/Orange County area. 

More than 2 decades ago I attempted to rescue the last surviving hive from a black bear decimated apiary. Even when attempted at night and in full bee-gear that colony managed to sting me and the crew I had with me several hundred times. I don't believe they were AHBs, yet they were still untouchable and as defensive as any AHB horror story.

I must disagree with the overreaction from some of my fellow beekeepers who have bought into the media hype concerning AHBs. 

My mental vision of the subject "flower pot" with the dimensions described is more like a medium skep hive. 

And when swarms issue here, even from my own hives, they can be just as defensive, when first leaving their parent hive, when they are forming their first cluster, or immediately after clustering, as any fully established colony would be. Though it is likely that many of my own colonies are somewhat Africanized (though maybe they are not); a suspicion due to several AHB behaviors like a hightened response to alarm pheromone and queens that quickly run and hide whenever the hive is opened for inspection. During a honey flow it is no problem to walk or stand in the apiary indefinitely or even in the flight paths of several hives with 7-8 medium supers full of honey, bees, and brood without even once drawing the guard bees attention. But once the flow has ended, watch out.
--
On the other hand bees can remain calm and docile despite being subjected to many irritating mistreatments.

Yes, they can be migrated into a normal beehive. I've transferred established feral colonies from hollow bee-trees, inside the walls of houses, and even exposed comb on tree limbs and beneath manufactured homes.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

<I must disagree with the overreaction>

Do you honestly think it's an overreaction to not want a non beekeeper to start with AHB? The guy doesn't even have a veil, man. I'm not advising him to mess with em.

Hawk


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

I do not think that seeking help from this forum, seeking help from a bee keeper or requeening the "flower pot skep" is in any way an over reaction to the facts.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

No, Hawk, I don't. I do think condemning them to death by declaring them ahb from 1000 miles away is. I feel there are better ways to handle it then that.
Power napper has listed 3 better alternatives and I'm sure there are many more. I just cannot condone killing anything out of fear or ignorance alone, with no other logical evidence.
And no, don't jump out of your chair thinking I'm calling you ignorant, I'm not, It is just that not knowing is the only reason I have seen on this thread for killing them.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> fear or ignorance alone, with no other logical 
> evidence.

Let's review, shall we?

1) It is a swarm in LA
2) It is very late for swarms in LA
3) It is a tiny swarm
4) It is in a tiny pot

Connect the dots, for pete's sake.
I don't like killing even one of God's creatures
either, but I'd rather not read about some guy in
LA being nominated for the Darwin Award because
he decided to take up beekeeping in the middle
of an AHB-infested area with a highly suspicious
swarm. (Yes, its a worst-case scenario, but
what happens when you give AHB a nice big hive,
maybe even feed them? You get weapons-grade bees.)

If he wants to take up beekeeping, let's each
send him a buck. With a 10% response rate, that
would be somewhere around 200 bucks, more than
enough to buy gear, and get bees of known
pedigree. But for now, he is a civilian, and
couldn't requeen the colony any more than he
could flap his arms and fly to the moon.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Oops


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

A plan I would recommend is to contact some local beekeepers to see if one would be willing to assist you in dealing with your hive. Fellow beekeepers have always been each other's best resource to learn from and get assistance from.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

1) It is a swarm in LA
2) It is very late for swarms in LA
3) It is a tiny swarm
4) It is in a tiny pot

1 So kill all la residents, one of them MIGHT be bad
2 There are swarms clear up to frost in all areas
3 Most late swarms are small
4 Approx. 400 cubic inches in the flower pot--How large are commercial swarm traps, made for "hopefully" extremely large swarms
No, I'm not suggesting he do it himself, but there is still no reason to kill out of "YES" fear and ignorance


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

)^*&%$#*&)_((*(%*&&% IT"S A SNAKE, KILL IT.


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## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

Spy Car
If i can do it, you can do it.
Sent a PM. jim


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

iddee, 
<there is still no reason to kill out of "YES" fear and ignorance>

Yes there is. And you can call me ignorant if you wish. lol.

The word means we don't know. And if I don't know, I wouldn't advise a newbee to try to work the hive. The suggestions of contacting a beekeeper make sense. If it works, great.

Hawk


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Approx. 400 cubic inches in the flower pot

Nope, just over half that.
You appear to be thinking of the equation for
a cylinder 10 inches high and 9.5 inches in
diameter. The equation for a "frustrum of
a right regular cone" (a flower pot) would be:

V = .2618*h * (d^2 + d*b + b^2)

Where:
V is volume
h is the height
d is the wider diameter
b is the smaller (base) diameter.

So, for various reasonable base diameters, we get:

4 inch base -> 290 cubic inches (4.7 liters)
5 inch base -> 308 cubic inches (5 liters)
6 inch base -> 329 cubic inches (5.3 liters)

The minimum cavity size acceptable to European
honey bee swarms is about 13 liters of total
volume. Anything less is going to be rejected by
any swarm of EHB the overwhelming majority of
the time, which is why the trapping programs
deploy these smaller swarm traps as a way to
detect AHB swarms. European honeybees "prefer"
a larger cavity, something around 30 liters.

Here's only one paper on the subject:

"Selection of Nest Cavities by Africanized
and European Honey Bees"
(Schmidt and Hurley USDA-ARS)
Apidologie (1995) 26: 467-75

> How large are commercial swarm traps, made for 
> "hopefully" extremely large swarms

Around 30 liters total volume.

Conclusion: the swarm, if not AHB, is a highly
unusual case.


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## Spy Car (Jul 7, 2005)

I guess the "debate" here on this thread pretty well matches the debate that has been raging in my own mind over the past few days.

I sincerely doubt anyone involved in bee-keeping takes any joy in advocating the destruction of this hive. Personally the idea of killing bees is especially awful. I've always loved seeing bees feeding in our yard and would never dream of harming one...much less kill a hive.

I am, however, beginning to feel persuaded that this hive has a high probability of being AHBs...especially given the small volume of the flower-pot. This point has been well made by members of this forum and in other readings I've seen. 

The hive, I must say, remains "gentle". I'm not trying to press my luck...but they certainly have not reacted to my observations (yet to even have one buzz me). The good news for now is the hive could not be better situated (if it has to be in our back-yard that is). It's as far from our house as possible...in a little used back corner of the yard...and their flight path minimizes any contact with neighbors.

As for contacting government agencies for help...this seems futile. The County of Los Angeles has terminated its "bee removal" programs...and getting DNA, wing measurement or other morphological testing done seems impossible...unless someone were to be killed.

Unfortunately, in this area bee removal is treated largely as a "pest control" issue and not as either an "agricultural" or "wildlife" matter.

Fortunately, I have been contacted by 2 members of this forum who are beekeepers (one of whom I have purchased honey from at our local farmers market from over the years....talk about small worlds). 

I know this must be a busy time for beekeepers and taking on africanized hives may not be a lot of fun but I will cautiously do my best to try for the best possible outcome.

I appreciate where each of you is coming from....thanks for all the input.

Bill


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Well, overall I think the thread has been both fun and useful. Spycar, I am sure your final decision will be the best possible under the circumstances. I think I can speak for a number of people when I say THANK YOU for your concern for the bees and for spending the energy to learn the best route to take. GOOD LUCK


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Spy Car,
If possible, please keep in contact with this forum and let us know how your touch with nature turns out.


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Way to go Spy Car, wishin you the best of luck and thanks for sharing your concern for bees with us.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think you would find that the advice would probably differ a bit if you were a beekeeper. Certainly mine would. We hate to see bees hurt, but no one wants to advise you in a way that gets you or someone else hurt.


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