# My Bees aren't building comb (2nd colony in a row)



## ravikmd

I'm having a similar problem. I installed two packages. One colony has not built any comb on day five. I was not able to spot the queen, but she is not in her cage and the bees are foraging. Is this normal? The other colony has built a small comb and stored some pollen. No eggs though.


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## msscha

Hi, Dakota. I can't provide beekeeping wisdom, but did want to chime in with how valuable forums are. I made huge use of nano-reef when I started my tank a couple of years ago. I hope you find your answers soon! Something I heard on the radio today -- there were a LOT of colony deaths after the almond season this year. Apparently, growers were not pacing pesticide application, but combining several to save time ("tanking"). The CA beekeepers have asked the EPA to advise better pesticide practices in order for both sides to benefit. I seem to remember they mentioned something about swarms being affected, too -- any chance that your swarms caught the bad end of that pesticide blast?


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## drlonzo

Dakota - I need to know if you have fed your bees anything at all so far in the line of syrup? Please respond with haste.


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## MacNachtan

Did you feed either of these swarms 1:1 syrup? What has the weather been like after hiving the swarms?


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## ravikmd

Weather has been rainy for 2 days and sunny for 1.5 here. I've given them some 1:1 syrup and dry sugar which they are eating.


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## Dakota

drlonzo said:


> Dakota - I need to know if you have fed your bees anything at all so far in the line of syrup? Please respond with haste.


The first colony didn't eat, even when I gave them syrup... 

I put some syrup in a bowl with some rocks for the new one outside the hive, and they are ignoring it completely. I was thinking about getting a "legit" feeder (entrance type) but I'm under the impression they would have found it and ate it if they really wanted to, but the are foraging in and out of the hive.



MacNachtan said:


> Did you feed either of these swarms 1:1 syrup? What has the weather been like after hiving the swarms?


It's been beautiful. Sunny, highs in the 70s (or high 60s) lows in the mid 50s.



msscha said:


> I seem to remember they mentioned something about swarms being affected, too -- any chance that your swarms caught the bad end of that pesticide blast?


I wouldn't be surprised if my first swarm was contaminated with pesticides... they died quick, plentiful, and a lot had their tongues sticking out.


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## RAK

Your hive most likely died from starvation. Tongues sticking out is a sign of starvation. They need energy to go outside and get that syrup so its best to have syrup right next to them,


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## Dakota

RAK said:


> Your hive most likely died from starvation. Tongues sticking out is a sign of starvation. They need energy to go outside and get that syrup so its best to have syrup right next to them,


The syrup was inside the hive with them. Plus, they weren't even eating it OR foraging. But that would still mean they starved.

The current colony is at least actively foraging, but they aren't touching the syrup either.


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## MacNachtan

Give this a shot in the back of your TBH. It will be close to the bees and easy for them to use. Use 1:1 syrup made with regular granulated sugar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdr05UtUnes


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## Dakota

Are we all under the assumption they need to be fed? I don't think that is the issue. I mean, the first colony didn't touch the sugar syrup, and neither has the 2nd, but at this point, the current colony is still in a good shape as far as their population, so I'm pretty sure they are getting food for themselves.


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## Dakota

Okay, so I moved the feeder inside to the back of the hive. I don't know how long it usually takes for them to find it, but we'll see if that encourages them to do anything. It's been windy this morning (rained last night) but the bees are actively in and out today.


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## camero7

If the feed is directly over the bees they will take it much better. I put an empty hive body over the top bars when I had some TBH's. Then fed with a jar, Worked well.


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## Dakota

camero7 said:


> If the feed is directly over the bees they will take it much better. I put an empty hive body over the top bars when I had some TBH's. Then fed with a jar, Worked well.


How will they get to it easier? I mean, in a langstroth I can see how, but they'd have to leave the hive to get to in in a TBH (which is where I had it before, and I have hive bodies). Now, all they have to do is bump into is while surveying the bottom of the hive.


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## camero7

I had 1/4" spacers between my 1" bars. Just pulled a couple of spacers out and put the box on the hive with the syrup. Bees like to be able to access the syrup from the cluster, particularly in cold windy weather.


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## Joseph Clemens

Despite that your daytime temperatures are in the 60's and 70'sF, I would guess that your 1:1 syrup is less than 50F. It isn't that honey bees won't take syrup that is below 50F, they cannot. It is best if you warm the syrup for them, at least every morning. I recommend warming it to at least 100F, though it likely won't be that warm by the time it reaches the bees. Also, with Top Bar hives, I find that they can access syrup best when I use an inverted feeder, above the Top Bars - I push open a 1/4" gap between Top Bars, right where the bees are below, then place the inverted jar with small holes in its lid, propped up so there is a 1/4" crawl space between the Top Bars and feeder lid, then cover with a box, and sometimes I pack a few rags into the box, around the feeder, to help it stay warm while the bees are feeding there.

1:1, warm sugar syrup is what they need, not dry granulated sugar.

-----------------
I initially began beekeeping, not too far from Ventura. In Lompoc, in 1966. I wasn't using Top Bars then, but still had similar feeding issues to deal with.


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## Dakota

I'll give that a try. Just a cardboard box to cover it? This morning, I actually saw more dead bees on the bottom that ever (with this colony) so I fear now it's a downward slope. No activity on the feeder inside at this time, so hopefully putting it above them will help (as they always seem to want to crawl upwards when removing bars. I'm so depressed over this...


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## Joseph Clemens

Don't forget, warm the syrup, too.


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## Dakota

Okay.. So this is kind of encouraging... I warmed the syrup, and as soon as I split up one of the top bars, it immeditaley occurred to me how well this might work. I saw HUNDREDS of tiny eyes looking up at me. I put the syrup down for them, covered the space with a box, and 30 minutes later... they're eating!

Here's my question, though: Wouldn't they have at least STARTED building comb right away, even if they couldn't find sugar syrup? I mean, they were foraging right away, so why didn't they even START building comb, even if they would have had to stop for lack of more food??


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## Joseph Clemens

They need lots and lots of nectar (weak sugar syrup solution), and very warm temperatures (around their festooning bodies), in order to produce wax, and similar conditions in order to use the wax to build comb. Without enough warmth, sugar syrup, and festooning bee bodies - they can't make wax or build comb.

Bottom line --> not enough food, no wax and no comb.

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If you were a carpenter and tasked to build wooden framing for walls. Would it be possible to do that, without any wood? To build those walls, you're first going to need a supply of wood of the necessary dimensions.


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## Dakota

So, although I've mostly likely been directly responsible for their delayed comb building.... Will they be able to survive long enough for a brood cycle? And should I install more feeders above the top bars if I have room?


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## Dakota

They are goin' for it now.


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## Jon Wolff

With captured swarms, it's impossible to know where they come from and where they've been, and what they've been exposed to during that time. If the same thing is happening to two different colonies in the same hive, it makes me wonder if there is something about the hive, what it's made from, and if there is any kind of finish on the inside contributing to this behavior. It could also be something going on in your environment, neighbors using insecticides and so forth. What equipment did you use to capture them? Could it be contaminated in any way? Just brainstorming ideas.


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## Dakota

I used a carboard box, but what that box went through is a mystery quite frainkly. Also, a concern I had was if I let the hive box "air out" long enough after I sealed it with an oil based treatment (12 days after final coat). Also, I DID realize that I used a paint brush to apply the wax, but the brush hasn't been used for YEARS.... then again, maybe that did something??? also, if there was an environmental issue the bees wouldn't have liked, would they have just absconded due to the smell? At least with the second swarm, they did not just start dying off right away like the first... but, then again, that was 7 days later, so if there was some chemical gas-off happening at that point, I can see how it would have made a difference 7 days later.


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## Joseph Clemens

Dakota said:


> So, although I've mostly likely been directly responsible for their delayed comb building.... Will they be able to survive long enough for a brood cycle? And should I install more feeders above the top bars if I have room?


Hopefully, yes - only time will tell. If the weather warms some, and it might, that will help increase chances of success.

I think additional feeders would be good. The bees can then take more, faster, and the increased mass of feed will help to keep it warmer, longer. And, check tomorrow morning, to see how they're taking the syrup, and refresh with warm syrup.

Good luck, and welcome to beekeeping.


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## Dakota

Thanks for the help!

Also, should I remove the feeders and close up the hive at night to better insulate them? I don't know how I feel about leaving the top cracked open when it cools down. As of 6:00 this evening, they've stopped taking the syrup.


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## Joseph Clemens

If it isn't raining, you could cover it over with a rag or a towel or two - be sure to fasten it down so it doesn't get blown off. Or you could remove it all, then replace it in the morning, with freshly warmed syrup.


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## Jon Wolff

How cold is it getting at night? Bees can get through some really frigid temps just fine in their cluster. Now if there's a chimney effect being caused by having the top open, then you should close it up. Bees don't like drafty hives.


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## Dakota

Last night got down to 40, but it rained a bit. usually, we're in the low 50s. Pretty sure it will get drafty considering the entrance location and the split top. I'll feel better if I gently nudge the bees down between the bars and close it up. PLus, I'll need to remove the syrup anyway to warm it up.


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## Dakota

Okay--- 48 hours after syrup feeding... Still no comb, and now ants have discovered the delicious delicacy. I am at ends meet here... I'm pulling my hair out with stress, and I just feel like I'm failing the bees. . . For some dumb reason this is really depressing me to no end.


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## msscha

Dakota said:


> Okay--- 48 hours after syrup feeding... Still no comb, and now ants have discovered the delicious delicacy. I am at ends meet here... I'm pulling my hair out with stress, and I just feel like I'm failing the bees. . . For some dumb reason this is really depressing me to no end.


I've had both carpenter ants and fire ants discover the hive. I chanced using Amdro b/c fire ants are just plain mean. I do know how you're feeling -- I feel the same about having allowed cross-combing to get this far, though I realize you'd prefer to be dealing with that problem. I don't know that 48 hours is that long. My bees were emptying a 14 oz jar of syrup a day, and it was a few days of eating before I spotted any comb through the window. It was at least a week before I was sure they were foraging, and I just spotted pollen baskets on returning bees a couple of days ago. If it's been cold and rainy, perhaps the bees are just staying warm? Jurgen Tautz and Thomas Seeley both write a lot about the amount of food energy it takes for bees to stay warm...Tautz has even identified a new kind of worker, the heater bee, whose job appears to be solely using body energy to heat the empty cells in the brood nest in order to keep larvae/pupae warm. Those bees need so much food that a second worker has the job of solely bringing honey and nectar droplets to feed the heater bees. I think Tautz wrote that this can happen as often as every 30 minutes. Since building comb is also energy consuming, and there is not brood to keep warm, maybe the bees are just huddling until all the environmental pieces they need are working together long enough.


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## Dakota

msscha said:


> I feel the same about having allowed cross-combing to get this far, though I realize you'd prefer to be dealing with that problem.


yeah, Much rather have cross-combing than NO comb... My bees are on Day 11 of just staying there, clumped up... although I've witnessed them taking the sugar syrup, they haven't even emptied one jar yet. . . or even 1/2 emptied for that matter... I HAVE seen more and more starting to exit the hive throughout the evening when I'm home from work. 

The only "good" news is that we had our "Santa Ana" winds kick up last night which will automatically give us 80+ degree temperatures, so maybe the extra warmth will be good for them. here in Ventura, CA it's always "good weather" and it hardly rains here. I'm just worried that at this point, they are going to start dying off due to their relatively short lives and then even if the DO start building, they'll all be dead before new workers hatch :-(


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## Delta Bay

Do you happen to have an open screened bottom on your hive?


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## jwcarlson

Dakota said:


> yeah, Much rather have cross-combing than NO comb... My bees are on Day 11 of just staying there, clumped up... although I've witnessed them taking the sugar syrup, they haven't even emptied one jar yet. . . or even 1/2 emptied for that matter... I HAVE seen more and more starting to exit the hive throughout the evening when I'm home from work.
> 
> The only "good" news is that we had our "Santa Ana" winds kick up last night which will automatically give us 80+ degree temperatures, so maybe the extra warmth will be good for them. here in Ventura, CA it's always "good weather" and it hardly rains here. I'm just worried that at this point, they are going to start dying off due to their relatively short lives and then even if the DO start building, they'll all be dead before new workers hatch :-(


I installed a package on April 5th. Through a period of about six days and finally a lengthy thread on here with the help of many... we determined the hive to be queenless. On April 16th we installed the replacement queen in the afternoon. She was hanged from a top bar with a decent amount of candy to be chewed through. The following morning it was sunny and my brother noticed that the bees were bringing in pollen (this is something they did not do at all before hanging the queen). We went back in four days later and the bees had started two combs, they were not visible from the observation window at all. When we pulled one out we saw the queen, some stored pollen, and eggs. The weather has been rough here in eastern Iowa, still dropping down to 35 at night. We had a heating pad on the syrup to keep it in the temperatures at which they can take it. We removed it about a week ago... and put it back on tonight. The lows will be dropping into the 30s the next four nights and highs MAYBE in the mid-50s. 

Our bees are at a crucial time. I sneaked a peak at them today as they should be capping brood. I saw several capped cells. There were several larva very near being ready to be capped. My calculations put emergence day of the first brood to be May 8th or 9th. Possibly as early as May 6th or 7th depending on when the queen was actually released and started laying. That's 34-35 days since the package was installed. The hive still has a good number of bees, but their numbers are noticeably lower at this point. I don't even know if it's possible for them to make it at this point. But my only hope is that it's not uncommon for a new queen to take two weeks to start laying, and theoretically those hives and still survive.

How are you looking for comb? I'm not kidding when I say you can't see it from the window. Do you see any pollen coming in?


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## Dakota

No screened bottom. And I know there is no comb because I checked the bars after 8 days went by and there was no visible comb. I'm wondering at this point there is no queen..... which is what I thought about the first colony I lost but I ended up seeing her as one of the few left.... ants again today, too.

No pollen either....


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## jwcarlson

Dakota said:


> No screened bottom. And I know there is no comb because I checked the bars after 8 days went by and there was no visible comb. I'm wondering at this point there is no queen..... which is what I thought about the first colony I lost but I ended up seeing her as one of the few left.... ants again today, too.
> 
> No pollen either....


How positive are you that you saw her? Is there any way you could cage a queen that your beekeeping buddy has to see how they react? Michael Palmer has a great video showing how a queenless hive reacts to a queen. YouTube "palmer queenless" and it should come up.

Otherwise this link should work:


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## Dakota

I'm only positive I saw the queen from my 1st colony.. And they weren't doing ANYTHING for the 11 days it took them to all die off. I looked for the queen on my current colony, but out of 9,000-10,000 bees, I didn't see her when I examined the bars.... but I know that doesn't mean she's not there. I don't think I can get a queen from my buddy or anyone else around here for that matter, and I definitely don't want to buy one (I prefer to keep my bees feral from this area).


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## frazzledfozzle

How many bees do you actually have in the hive? How big is the cluster?
It could be that you have a small cluster which means it will be alot harder for them to make any decent inroads in drawing comb


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## frazzledfozzle

.double post


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## jwcarlson

Dakota said:


> I'm only positive I saw the queen from my 1st colony.. And they weren't doing ANYTHING for the 11 days it took them to all die off. I looked for the queen on my current colony, but out of 9,000-10,000 bees, I didn't see her when I examined the bars.... but I know that doesn't mean she's not there. I don't think I can get a queen from my buddy or anyone else around here for that matter, and I definitely don't want to buy one (I prefer to keep my bees feral from this area).


How are those local ferals doing so far?  Obviously you are in an area where you can get swarms. Maybe you can catch some more they'll take. My comment regarding the queen was simply to see how they react to her.


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## Dakota

jwcarlson said:


> How are those local ferals doing so far?


My friend has captured 4 swarms so far, and they are all doing great.... and he doesn't feed them. . . which is why I keep thinking -_I'm_- doing something wrong.



frazzledfozzle said:


> How many bees do you actually have in the hive? How big is the cluster?


Well, when I started there was around the same amount (or more) than you find in a package. As of now, there is still a VERY large cluster, but some of died off (I see 3-4 every night, but they clean up the next day). I have a video of them around here somewhere when I put them in a box.


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## Joseph Clemens

Is your friend nearby or several miles away? Beekeeping is local, and that means, three mile radius local. Anything outside your own three mile radius is a different location.


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## jwcarlson

Is there any way you could get a comb of brood from your friend? Maybe see if they try raising a queen?

I know you've stated your desire to "keep it local", but surely in Ventura, CA area there is someone raising "local" queens. It seems a waste to let a decent swarm die out if you could get the resources for them to survive. It's remarkable how quickly our hive went from basically an unmoving ball of bees drinking barely any syrup to a foraging, comb building, syrup guzzling well organized workforce over night.

About how much syrup have your bees taken since you started feeding them? Ours would take maybe an inch out of an 18 oz jar over 2-3 days. They took about 36 oz in three days or so after we got them a queen. And they had built comb, stored pollen, and the queen had laid in that period of time.


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## Dakota

Yes, I know that for sure, but I was more-so talking about the behavior of our local, feral bees here. he's a good 20 miles away from me, so I know that my bees are in their own little eco-system. I just wish I had a queen I could use to verify if they have one, but if they do, I'd still be very upset with why they aren't building.. We will have temps in the 80s to low 90s through the rest of this week, so if that doesn't give them any warmth, I don't know what will. I figure at this point, I'll just keep the feeder on, let them be, and if they fail, then I'll probably have to try again, or wait until next spring.


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## jwcarlson

Dakota said:


> Yes, I know that for sure, but I was more-so talking about the behavior of our local, feral bees here. he's a good 20 miles away from me, so I know that my bees are in their own little eco-system. I just wish I had a queen I could use to verify if they have one, but if they do, I'd still be very upset with why they aren't building.. We will have temps in the 80s to low 90s through the rest of this week, so if that doesn't give them any warmth, I don't know what will. I figure at this point, I'll just keep the feeder on, let them be, and if they fail, then I'll probably have to try again, or wait until next spring.


Close to any almond orchards? 

It seems like thinking any swarm you may catch is "feral" may be a bit of stretch. The way bees are shipped and hives are trucked thousands of miles, how could you ever be sure what you have is "wild"? You seem really discouraged, and I was too. I think letting idealogy or a predetermined "way" you're going to keep bees is a good thing to have. But does it have to be a death pact? If your friend 20 miles away can spare a frame of brood from one of his survivor hives, why not give them a shot to survive?

That's just my thought. You said you've been wanting to keep bees for a long time and now you finally have a place to do it, so do it!


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## Dakota

While I can never say for sure if the swarm is truly "feral" I'm more inclined to want to catch a swarm from a hive that was strong enough to swarm (and has been able to survive in our environment). The one I have was caught in the middle of Ventura, not near any orchards for fields attached to a fence at an apartment complex, and considering the distance they fly after a swarm, I'm highly dubious they came from a beekeeper (but, of course, who knows for sure).

I've asked my buddy for help, but it's not like we're close friends, so i don't know what he's willing to do. I want to do what I can to ensure their survival, but I'm limited right now based on a bunch of factors.

I also want to thank everyone again for your advice and support. I very much appreciate it.


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## Groem

Dakota said:


> I used a carboard box, but what that box went through is a mystery quite frainkly. *Also, a concern I had was if I let the hive box "air out" long enough after I sealed it with an oil based treatment *(12 days after final coat). Also, I DID realize that I used a paint brush to apply the wax, but the brush hasn't been used for YEARS.... then again, maybe that did something??? also, if there was an environmental issue the bees wouldn't have liked, would they have just absconded due to the smell? At least with the second swarm, they did not just start dying off right away like the first... but, then again, that was 7 days later, so if there was some chemical gas-off happening at that point, I can see how it would have made a difference 7 days later.


So what was this oil treatment? Did you treat the inside? and what wax did you apply where?


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## Dakota

Groem said:


> So what was this oil treatment? Did you treat the inside? and what wax did you apply where?


It was Tung oil. I did not treat the inside at all. it's bare Cedar. I applied beeswax to the edges of the top bars.


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## frazzledfozzle

Dakota said:


> While I can never say for sure if the swarm is truly "feral" I'm more inclined to want to catch a swarm from a hive that was strong enough to swarm (and has been able to survive in our environment).


Bearing in mind a hive, feral or managed will swarm/abscond if the mite load becomes intolerable


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## Groem

Well seeing that your local bees dont want to build maybe you should look farther away for bees that do 

What i would do is ask your buddy to see if you could put one of your bars in the middle of his brood nest. It will show first if there is something wrong with your bars if they start to draw it out or not. once started with some eggs and larva bring it back and put it in your hive. See if it motivates you bees to start building or make a queen cells. This will show you if they have a queen, and brood motivates them to work.

If you friends swarms are only 20 miles apart, i would think they would be pretty close simular to your bees. unless you have some big mountains or water between you i bet there is some breeding between your location and his. just remeber living bees are better than dead local bees.


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## Dakota

well... Look who I found today?








So much for that theory. At this point, I'm depserate.... Now I just need to find some bees w/o a queen and maybe they'll work together? I dunno. I feel terrible that this swarm might just die out. I'm down to probably only 1 or 2 thousand bees... maybe less.... :-(

And, yes, I totally concede my local bee philosophy, but in my head it makes some sort of ecological sense. Not really anymore though...


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## jwcarlson

Dakota said:


> well... Look who I found today?
> View attachment 10580
> 
> 
> So much for that theory. At this point, I'm depserate.... Now I just need to find some bees w/o a queen and maybe they'll work together? I dunno. I feel terrible that this swarm might just die out. I'm down to probably only 1 or 2 thousand bees... maybe less.... :-(
> 
> And, yes, I totally concede my local bee philosophy, but in my head it makes some sort of ecological sense. Not really anymore though...


Your philosophy makes perfect sense, but like I said, it shouldn't be a death pact. 
Strange the queen is there but no comb. Does anyone know if bees will build comb with a virgin queen or will they languish? Makes me wonder if you're not somehow catching a "collapsed" hive? Is this possible. Those bees that disappear go SOMEWHERE right?


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## Dakota

If this is the 2nd Colony in a row this happened to..... queen-right and no comb, what exactly could this mean? I'm not going to go chasing swarms if I am doing something horribly wrong.


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## jwcarlson

Dakota said:


> If this is the 2nd Colony in a row this happened to..... queen-right and no comb, what exactly could this mean? I'm not going to go chasing swarms if I am doing something horribly wrong.


I don't know, but I doubt it's something you're doing wrong. My guess is something is wrong with the queen/bees. 

I'm really curious to here if a virgin queen will have "the right stuff" to drive a colony to build comb.


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## Dakota

Well, they are clinging to her like a normal colony. Obviously they are feeding her. Or have been thus far.


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## virginiawolf

I thought that bees will draw comb as fast as they can so the mated queen can lay eggs so that the colony will survive. If you are feeding them and the queen is mated the workers should draw comb. I would add that you could give the colony some pollen patties. That may give them some protein and help them get going.

I got some patties from here and the bees are eating them up and it is helping them through this rather cold spring here.

http://globalpatties.com/pages/why.htm

I hope things work out that is a nice looking queen.


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## Dakota

i thought pollen for specifically for rearing brood. They use honey/sugar syrup for comb.... I fear this colony is doomed, as their numbers are really low now (80% are gone) and still nothin'.

here's a thought... can you add bees w/o a queen to a colony like this one? That way I could increase their numbers and try to save them.


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## Joseph Clemens

You can add nurse/house bees from any hive(s) with impunity. A comb of emerging worker brood, with the nurse bees that are on it, works pretty well.

The photo of your queen, shows me that she is most likely recently a virgin, and if she does lay, has only recently begun.

It is more complicated if you add field bees (unintentionally), or a foreign queen - so be careful to leave those out. If you only have older, field bees to add, it's best if they are queenless overnight before adding them. There are many various techniques used to combine disparate groups of honey bees. The easiest one is to just add young bees to your older bees.


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## Striider

Fellow n00b disclaimer! 

Seems like one thing you haven't tried is the hardest to recreate...the hive. Maybe you could set up a temporary nuc style top bar hive for them, move them over, and see if they start building? They are super easy to build, and you probably have enough scraps laying around. Something like this is what I have in mind: http://denver.craigslist.org/grd/4444990311.html Also, maybe they don't like your top bar wood.

I am not sure about Tung oil, but I know people using linseed oil for the outside of hives works fine (including myself). Of course I am assuming you used nothing besides beeswax on the inside right?


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## Dakota

I'm desperate a this point. There are only hundreds left... out of 10k. 

I wonder if her still being a virgin might be the issue. She did appear 'young' but what do I know?

The only thing on the inside is beeswax on the top bars, but if something was IN the beeswax, wouldn't they avoid it all together? They clump up top like normal....


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## virginiawolf

Do you have a nuc box? Could you make one. I would be curious if a different hive like strider mentioned would make a difference. Typically swarms are ready to go with wax production. Try a nuc box. Get the queen in there and add a frame of brood a frame of pollen and honey from another hive. 

I have had where a queen didn't lay eggs until I supplied her with some more brood. I think she needed more bees and brood to get her motivated. She became a great laying queen after she eventually got going. Ask a local beekeeper if they could give you 2 frames of brood in a nuc with honey and pollen and stick her in there. Tell them you will pay them back somehow or something along those lines. Then watch to see if she takes off laying eggs. I am hoping that things work out for you. I'm surprised that this is happening to you twice now.


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## Striider

virginiawolf- that's kind of what I was thinking. Sounds like he has tried everything else.

Not to rub any salt in the situation, but I installed a swarm today and your quote "Typically swarms are ready to go with wax production." is spot on. These guys were festooning on almost every bar this evening (out of 10), and I installed them around noon. To be fair, there were at least twice as many bees as a package.


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## Dakota

Well, at this point there are only a couple hundred bees left. :-(


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## sabriel7

I'm experiencing a similar thing. We installed a package last Friday (May 2nd) and I'm still not seeing any comb. I've been feeding sugar syrup and fondant (they seem to be going for the fondant way more than the syrup), but there is still not much action. The majority of the days they just remain in their clump, huddled up under the top bar. Yesterday I removed the queen cage and saw what I think was the queen crawling around on the cage, so I'm fairly certain she is alive. I'm hopeful that they will begin building soon, and have been reluctant due to our unseasonably cold weather in Michigan these last few days. At what point should I get really worried? And when that time comes what is the next step?


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## Dakota

According to how they "should" be building, you should have 3-4 bars of comb within 7 days at various lengths. If they waited a couple of days (which can happen) you should still see some comb after a week. If it's too cold for them to make the wax malleable, that could be a problem, but you can check for wax scales on the bottom of the hive (I have them everywhere) which means they are producing wax, but not using it.


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## sabriel7

I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Watching them not do anything is incredibly disheartening.


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## Dakota

sabriel7 said:


> Watching them not do anything is incredibly disheartening.


Most horribly so. . .


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## jwcarlson

sabriel7 said:


> I'm experiencing a similar thing. We installed a package last Friday (May 2nd) and I'm still not seeing any comb. I've been feeding sugar syrup and fondant (they seem to be going for the fondant way more than the syrup), but there is still not much action. The majority of the days they just remain in their clump, huddled up under the top bar. Yesterday I removed the queen cage and saw what I think was the queen crawling around on the cage, so I'm fairly certain she is alive. I'm hopeful that they will begin building soon, and have been reluctant due to our unseasonably cold weather in Michigan these last few days. At what point should I get really worried? And when that time comes what is the next step?


The syrup has to be above 50 degrees for them to be able to take it. They can build comb when it's pretty cool out. Either heat the syrup frequently or find a way to keep it warm.

If you don't see any comb do you mean that you're looking in the window and don't see any or you're pulling bars and don't see any? Nearly full sized combs can be invisible from your window. If you're pulling bars and not seeing any and they've been in for five days, it's time to get a new queen I think. I let ours languish for about 8 days before contacting the supplier. Installed the replacement queen on day 11 and they are in the process of superceding her, which will be a very very long time since we installed them (April 5th) and they've basically had no brood to add to numbers. I would be proactive vs. waiting it out for weeks. A queen might not lay for a couple weeks... but comb should be being built in the meantime.




Dakota said:


> According to how they "should" be building, you should have 3-4 bars of comb within 7 days at various lengths. If they waited a couple of days (which can happen) you should still see some comb after a week. If it's too cold for them to make the wax malleable, that could be a problem, but you can check for wax scales on the bottom of the hive (I have them everywhere) which means they are producing wax, but not using it.


We pulled queen cages last night. Less than 24 hours after install they had made one deck of cards sized comb and started another. And that was the only two bars we actually saw, I'm guessing there was comb on a third as well.


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## sabriel7

jwcarlson said:


> "If you don't see any comb do you mean that you're looking in the window and don't see any or you're pulling bars and don't see any? Nearly full sized combs can be invisible from your window."
> 
> Both. Last night when I pulled the queen cage out I checked the top bars for comb, and nothing. I've also been looking through the window and the bottom screen, and nothing there either. Right now they are going crazy with activity though, so maybe they are working or maybe they are absconding...
> 
> I'm certainly going to try to warm the sugar syrup, and if there is still no comb in a day or two (assuming they are not trying to abscond right now) I'll re-queen.
> 
> Thanks for all the help.
> 
> Hang in there Dakota.


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## Michael Bush

It takes heat to take syrup. It takes sugar to make comb. It takes heat to make comb. They may have to generate it, but it takes heat and the colder it is the less motivated they are to build comb. Bees are always doing exactly what they are supposed to do... they can't help it, it's their instincts...


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## jwcarlson

sabriel7 said:


> "If you don't see any comb do you mean that you're looking in the window and don't see any or you're pulling bars and don't see any? Nearly full sized combs can be invisible from your window."
> 
> Both. Last night when I pulled the queen cage out I checked the top bars for comb, and nothing. I've also been looking through the window and the bottom screen, and nothing there either. Right now they are going crazy with activity though, so maybe they are working or maybe they are absconding...
> 
> I'm certainly going to try to warm the sugar syrup, and if there is still no comb in a day or two (assuming they are not trying to abscond right now) I'll re-queen.
> 
> Thanks for all the help.
> 
> Hang in there Dakota.


Is your screened board open? If they're too cold they won't be able to draw comb like Mr. Bush says. 
Is there any fighting going on at your hive right now? First day after install of my first package where were bees all over the dang place and being a newbie I assumed it was normal. Looking back at the video I took that day I shake my head. There were bees piled up on top of the cover, stinging each other/fighting on top.

Your weather looks like it's been pretty similar to ours here in Eastern Iowa. It should be good comb building weather, I think. Once we got a queen in our hive our languishing package got RIGHT to work building comb and built three full size ones in a matter of 4-5 days. And that's with much less bees than a full package would have. The weather the week after we got a queen to them was in the mid 50s, one day got to 80 and a few in the 60s. Lows mostly in the upper-20s that week to mid-30s. Still quite cold. We did have a heating pad heating the syrup. It seemed to be keeping it about 70 degrees on the days I measured the temp with my infrared thermometer.


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## sabriel7

I warmed the syrup and gave that to the bees; they seem to be taking it well at the moment, but we have a bunch of bees who left the hive and have formed a mass just beneath the hive on the grass. Has anyone heard of this happening before? The majority of the bees are still in the hive, but with night coming fast the girls on the ground don't seem interested in joining them. Any ideas? 

(We took some pics of the mass on the ground, but I cannot figure out how to load them here.)


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## sabriel7

jwcarlson said:


> Is your screened board open? If they're too cold they won't be able to draw comb like Mr. Bush says.
> Is there any fighting going on at your hive right now? First day after install of my first package where were bees all over the dang place and being a newbie I assumed it was normal. Looking back at the video I took that day I shake my head. There were bees piled up on top of the cover, stinging each other/fighting on top.


I didn't notice any fighting, just more of a flying frenzy than anything. I do have the bottom screened, but maybe I will cover it to keep the bees warmer.


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## Dakota

Well... my girls are gone. Queen is now missing and only a dozen or two remain.... I'm so depressed.


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## virginiawolf

You will get a better batch in the future and it will be completely different. It's not your fault. You really tried. I lost my bees the first winter and I was bummed but then I got some different bees and tried some different strategies and kept learning and things got better. See if you can get a local nucleus colony and team up with a local beekeeper that will be there for you if you have questions. Having someone nearby to visit and compare notes that relate to your locality will help. When you get some bees going it will make things better


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## Dakota

But this has now happened twice in a row. I wasn't so down at first... but twice in a row? I'm now bee-less and its going to be mid may soon...


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## Kdxzoom

Sorry about your loss Dakota. You still have plenty of time for a new colony to build up strong before winter. Main nectar flows in most areas are still a month away and even if you miss that you can assist them if needed. Don't give up.


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## Dakota

Found another swarm! By, god, this one is quite large weighed in at OVER 5 lbs.... I have half the hive box divided with the partition, and they don't even seem to all fit inside right now. Within ONE hour, they drank 1/2" worth of syrup in a jar.... and they were active until AFTER the sun went down. Other colony was active, but sheesh... these girls are on fire... That, and this swarm has lots of drones, while my other one didn't. Not sure if that matters, but I'm also 1/2 tempted to increase the size of the box at this point.

































I'm also pretty sure these are a carniolan/italian hybrid based on the fact that there are both types in this colony (or at least by color). I never confirmed I saw the queen, but I thought I caught a glimpse of her marching into the hive.


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## Joseph Clemens

Excellent news, very glad to hear it. I hope you keep the bees in your life, they've helped keep curiosity flowing freely in my own life, my life wouldn't be the same without them.


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## jwcarlson

Dakota said:


> Found another swarm! By, god, this one is quite large weighed in at OVER 5 lbs.... I have half the hive box divided with the partition, and they don't even seem to all fit inside right now. Within ONE hour, they drank 1/2" worth of syrup in a jar.... and they were active until AFTER the sun went down. Other colony was active, but sheesh... these girls are on fire... That, and this swarm has lots of drones, while my other one didn't. Not sure if that matters, but I'm also 1/2 tempted to increase the size of the box at this point.
> 
> View attachment 10737
> View attachment 10738
> View attachment 10739
> View attachment 10740
> View attachment 10741
> 
> 
> I'm also pretty sure these are a carniolan/italian hybrid based on the fact that there are both types in this colony (or at least by color). I never confirmed I saw the queen, but I thought I caught a glimpse of her marching into the hive.


You CA guys sure seem to live in God's Country as far as swarms go! Amazing!
I'm glad you found another, if everything is good to go they will begin building comb very quickly. You'll be amazed!
Good luck!


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## Dakota

I was too excited to sleep, so its 6:45 when I decide to see what's going on outside.... And holy crap, there is a HUGE difference in activity compared to the other swarms I had. These girls are WORKIN' it! It's a flurry of activity out there. Hundreds zooming in and out at a time, the syrup is half gone, and they are literally buzzing. If this is how it is supposed to be, than I most definitely would have known something was off before. Granted there are a LOT more bees in this box than last time, but WOW. I hope they stay. . . .


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## msscha

Yay!! So glad for you.


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## virginiawolf

Awesome, I suspected that you would get a different batch of bees and that peculiar bees not building situation would fade away. It looks like you got a very good one. You could put an excluder in the front of the entrance to keep them in but hopefully they will just like your company and your top bar hive and they will make your place their home. I am very happy for you. I had thought of your situation a couple of times since it came up. I'm glad that it worked out now.


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## Dakota

It was really warm here today, so a bunch were out in the front hanging out.. lots of waggle dances, a few fumbling drones... I just sat next to them and watched for a while... so amazing. . . I increased the space (moved the follower board back) because there are too many bees to really have room for them to all hang out together inside.. in doing so, some propolis must have already been laid, because it was sticky to remove and I ended up jarring the whole hive.... and then I saw it.... COMB!!!!!!!!! but then it fell off... which made me very angry at myself, but then I thought, "hey why aren't you guys building in the FRONT of the hive!?" alas, I heated up the top part and smooshed it back on... It stuck, so I hope I avoided that being an issue..... After the sun went down, there were still a bunch hanging out front, just chilling..... Is that normal? I mean... I'm so new to what to expect, at least now I know what an ACTIVE colony really looks like (last two swarms were definitely duds based in their lack of doing much of anything)... These girls are already bringing pollen in!!! I'm so excited, I feel stupid.... Seriously..


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## jwcarlson

Bearding is relatively normal, how hot was it? They may need some more ventilation. How long have they been hived and how muchncomb have they built?


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## Dakota

They have been hived since Saturday night, so upon seeing the comb, it was only two days (I wasn't trying to find comb, I just happen to see it when I moved the false back our of the way and a clump fell). It was 88 yesterday, and it's supposed to be 94 today. I also thought adding a couple more bars worth of space would help keep them cooler.

The piece of comb was around 3 x 5 or so, and I didn't go looking for any other bars with comb on it (already probably pissed them off when it comb fell off). As for their bearding, I'm pretty sure it was just really warm in there, but I always thought they'd ALL go back in at night. As of this morning, there were only a dozen or so left hanging from the lid outside the front, but by then, the hive was already awake and active.


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## jwcarlson

Dakota said:


> They have been hived since Saturday night, so upon seeing the comb, it was only two days (I wasn't trying to find comb, I just happen to see it when I moved the false back our of the way and a clump fell). It was 88 yesterday, and it's supposed to be 94 today. I also thought adding a couple more bars worth of space would help keep them cooler.
> 
> The piece of comb was around 3 x 5 or so, and I didn't go looking for any other bars with comb on it (already probably pissed them off when it comb fell off). As for their bearding, I'm pretty sure it was just really warm in there, but I always thought they'd ALL go back in at night. As of this morning, there were only a dozen or so left hanging from the lid outside the front, but by then, the hive was already awake and active.


You got the comb reattached so it should be OK. Strange that it fell off though, I wonder why that happened? Was it connected to the follower you moved?


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## Dakota

no, but I assume I just jostled the bar moving it or something.... But it held on through the night (looked in the window and it wasn't on the floor of the hive) so they should be able to repair it and anchor it as they build it up.... I'm thinking I should just let them be for a few weeks at this point, yeah?


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## jwcarlson

Dakota said:


> no, but I assume I just jostled the bar moving it or something.... But it held on through the night (looked in the window and it wasn't on the floor of the hive) so they should be able to repair it and anchor it as they build it up.... I'm thinking I should just let them be for a few weeks at this point, yeah?


They should be building comb like gangbusters. If they're festooning well you can see where they are building the comb based on the bee pattern. From the side (through your window) it will look like a pile of bees but if you look they should be "raised" a bit where the combs are even if you can't see comb. What I mean is that a few weeks is a long time to not look. You'll want to make sure they aren't crosscombing or doing anything squirrely well before that. And also check for eggs. At least I would. I think about a week is probably a good time to take a look and make sure the comb isn't wonky.


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## Dakota

They are festooning like crazy.. there are strings of bees all over the place on the inside.... Maybe I'll take a peek this weekend then.


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## Dakota

I inspected the girls today (8 days after swarm installed). I had my camera all ready to go, but the batteries died, so I have no pics :-(

There are 5 bars of decent comb, and 2 small ones. One is slightly off center, so I smooshed the corner that was bowing out up back onto the top bar. That seemed to straighten it out.

I found the Queen! However, I did NOT see any eggs or larvae. I know eggs can be hard to see, but I couldn't find any... If she is a virgin queen, doesn't it take like 10-14 days for her to mate and come back laying? Other than that, I see great things inside. Lots of honey storage along the tops of the comb, some filled with most likely sugar water (clearish) and LOTS of pollen.


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## jwcarlson

Glad they're rolling!

How big did the queen look?


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## Dakota

Well, considering my inexperience , she looked like any other queen I have seen. Definitely much larger than the others. Pretty much like the last swarm. Same golden color, too. She seemed to be moving slower than I've seen in videos. She wasn't darting out of the way. Just kind of moving around on the comb.


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## Jon Wolff

Nice to see everything is going well. I made the mistake early on in my beekeeping experience of inspecting my hive on a warm day. After closing up the hive, I heard several "thumps" and a sudden very loud buzzing inside the hive. I opened it up to find four combs had collapsed, heavy with brood and honey. My wife and I did our best to get them tied back on, but some we had to set in a bucket, the comb was too soft. Turned out the queen was killed. We didn't know it at the time and closed up the hive, to let them be for a few months, only to see it dwindling away. Fortunately, they raised up a new queen and rebounded strongly. It's been my best hive for the last few years and fill out nearly the whole four foot hive (until I harvest the honeycomb).


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## estreya

Jon Wolff - what an experience! It's comforting to know honeybees can thrive in spite of our occasional missteps.


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## Jon Wolff

I don't know why they stuck around. They sure put up with a lot of foolishness from me.


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## Joseph Clemens

Bees generally don't build much comb if they are queenless, or even if they have a virgin queen. It takes a mated queen, to really get them building comb, in earnest. Your queen description sounds like a mated queen, either almost ready to lay, or is laying and you may not be familiar with locating eggs or young larva.

If, your queen, is as you describe, simply watching her for a few minutes should let you know if she's laying yet, or not. She will be actively laying, and if she is you will quite likely be able to see her doing it.


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## Dakota

Thanks Joseph. They've definitely been building comb like crazy. I did check the bottom of the cells for eggs, but even w/o the veil, it was really hard to see through the clumps of bees crawling around on them. I watched the queen for a minute or two, and I didn't see her laying, however, due to her shy nature, she was hard to keep track of. I'll inspect again next weekend (the 14-15 day mark) and I'm assuming I should be seeing larvae/capped brood by then.

My main concern is that if it is normal that she may take a week to start laying, as most people I've talked to say that within a week, their comb already has eggs in it after that long. They still need to build the comb thicker in a lot of places as well.


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## Joseph Clemens

Quite often when bees are building comb, the queen will place an egg in each cell, even before they are cells, when they're just the outline of a cell on the edge of the new honeycomb. If your queen isn't doing this, yet, she may soon begin doing so. I wouldn't panic, yet. She may have been on her mating flight when the swarm issued (mating/swarm flights - together), so should begin laying soon.


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## Dakota

I'm probably over-reacting.. I've just had some issues starting up this hive, so my anxiety is especially hight, praying these girls do their thing. . .next step... worrying about over-wintering, cross combing, feeding, etc, etc..


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## jwcarlson

Dakota said:


> I'm probably over-reacting.. I've just had some issues starting up this hive, so my anxiety is especially hight, praying these girls do their thing. . .next step... worrying about over-wintering, cross combing, feeding, etc, etc..


How confident are you that you could spot eggs if they were there? They are extremely difficult to see and depending on your angle can be darn near invisible. 

I have looked at a comb a couple of times before finally seeing them. It helps (I find) to blow gently onto the comb in the area you're looking. It temporily makes the bees get out of the way so you can get a better look. Then they cover back over shortly after.


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## Dakota

Well, I've seen them in pictures, so I know how small they are. I was looking for a contrast difference at the very bottom of the cell, so I could have easily missed them. I'm thinking by next weekend, there should at least be some larvae, and those should be easier to see, yeah?


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## Harley Craig

Dakota said:


> Well, I've seen them in pictures, so I know how small they are. I was looking for a contrast difference at the very bottom of the cell, so I could have easily missed them. I'm thinking by next weekend, there should at least be some larvae, and those should be easier to see, yeah?


yeah definitely, when I first started I couldn't see eggs in new comb to save my life, it will get easier with time and on old dark comb they stick out like a sore thumb.


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