# Signs of AFB infestation



## Acebird

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Management-best-Practices&p=650675#post650675
But we are generally doing a pretty good job of keeping it down. *fingers crossed* 
I like your explanation deejaycee.

What are the outside signs of AFB infestation? Can you tell if your colony may be infected without tearing the whole hive apart?


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## AR Beekeeper

Some beekeepers say they can smell AFB, but it would have to be an advanced case before the odor would be noticeable. The only sure way to determine if a colony has AFB is to check every brood frame.


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## sqkcrk

Visual inspection of the brood combs is necassary for the detection of AFB. So, yes, "tearing the whole hive apart" is necassary.

Signs of AFB are:
Sunken cappings.
Punctured cappings.
Oily look to the comb surface.
Presence of a brown viscous liquid inside the punctured cappings, that, when a match stick or small sliver of wood is used to try to remove acts like rubber cement, springing back into the cell. This is called roping and may extend 3/8 to 1/2" out of the cell before breaking off.
Often there is a detectable odor. Thus the name Foulbrood.

In older comb the dried down AFB scale can be seen in open cells. One holds the combs, by the top bar, w/ the sun over ones shoulders looking down across the cells looking at the bottom sides of the cells. The black hard scale cannot be removed.

Detection takes supervised instruction and practice. There are photographs available. Someone can direct you to them I'm sure.


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## Acebird

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2672.2001.01376.x/full#f3


> Heat disinfection
> After dipping the wooden sticks in paraffin at a temperature of 120°C, > 99·99% of the spores were killed at the surface and 99·98% internally. At 145°C or more, complete decontamination at the surface was achieved. At 170°C there was a complete decontamination at both levels (Fig. 3).


Complete decontamination at 338 F for two hours. Doable in a standard oven and safer than dipping. Scorching is not recommended.


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## NasalSponge

In 25 years I have only seen it once....24 years ago. A buddy of mine obtained a very neglected hive and once he got it home he called me and wanted me to look at it....after a quick inspection we set the thing on fire as I had several healthy hives close by....the smell was unforgettable.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2672.2001.01376.x/full#f3
> 
> 
> Complete decontamination at 338 F for two hours. Doable in a standard oven and safer than dipping. Scorching is not recommended.


Whose oven? The one in your kitchen? That I'd like to see. I don't know if you are thinking this thru. And I don't believe you have enuf experience to thinkl of doing this or recommending of it. I would be greatly concerned about the flammable material one would put in an oven. Not a good idea.

What are you going to do w/ the frames of comb?

"Scorching is not recommended"? By whom? Scorching the insides of empty supers from hives shown to have AFB has been a standard way of "disinfecting" of those supers. When done properly and well the insides of the supers are charred and then the charred surface is scraped down to wood, thereby burning and removing any potentially infectious material.

I would like tyo point out that where some techniques may result in better results, tried and true method of equipment disinfection have proven adequate and economically practical. Others may not be.


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## Barry

sqkcrk said:


> I would like tyo point out that where some techniques may result in better results, tried and true method of equipment disinfection have proven adequate and economically practical. Others may not be.


This is said of treatment free beekeeping as well.

If someone has an old electric stove that they want to sit outside and use for "baking" woodenware, why the red flag? The wax could be melted and rendered in a wax press. About the only thing I see you might lose are the bees and honey.


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## deknow

personally, i'd rather not heat a vat of liquid to within 60degreesF of its flashpoint...but this is not necessary. there have been several studies that have shown afb infected combs can be rendered into foundation without passing on the infection (presumably the spores get encapsulated in the wax in some way that keeps them unavailable). this is one of the reasons for wax dipping used woodenware, and you do not need to kill the spores with such high heat.

as for detection, there is something called the "milk test" that seems pretty accurate if performed properly. also, i think marla spivak trained a dog to detect AFB. Jerry Bromenshenk seems to be claiming he can detect it by analyzing the sound in the hive.

deknow


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## sqkcrk

deknow said:


> as for detection, there is something called the "milk test" that seems pretty accurate if performed properly. also, i think marla spivak trained a dog to detect AFB. Jerry Bromenshenk seems to be claiming he can detect it by analyzing the sound in the hive.
> 
> deknow


The Holts Milk Test isn't a way of Detecting AFB. It is used to verify that what one has found is AFB. I have seen it done, but don't have experience doing it. In my experience, the outward signs and the Rope Test are all the verification I need to accurately diagnose AFB. And I would say that if one see sunken and punctured cappings w/ a brown viscous liquid inside them, which ropes, that there is little doubt that what one has found is AFB.

For Lab Confirmation, at no cost, one can send a small sample of the diseased material to the Beltsville Bee Lab and they will confirm the diagnosis or tell one it is not.

The State of Maryland had a detector dog for a while. It's greatest use was in the winter when bees weren't flying. I don't think anyone has one in use at this time.

I can see the sound of a colony making one think that something may not be right and then leading one to look into determining whether AFB is presentr or not, but I wouldn't use it as the determining factor. Which, I imagine JB doesn't either.


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## Acebird

Mark if you go to the link and read that research you will see that scorching does NOT kill all the spores it only gets the ones on the surface of the wood. Scraping the charred surface is the worst thing you can do because now you have given those spores easy access to reinfect the hive. However the article does state that dipping and elevated air temperatures for a period of time (338 for two hours) does totally eradicate all spores with no damage to the wood.

So far it sounds like you can eat the honey, melt the wax, and cook the wooden ware, burn any residuals that you don't want and be perfectly safe about not spreading AFB. I am not saying you will be in accordance with any local laws but science seems to support other methods of handling AFB infestation.


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## Acebird

> i think marla spivak trained a dog to detect AFB. Jerry Bromenshenk seems to be claiming he can detect it by analyzing the sound in the hive.


I am certain a dog can smell it I wouldn't buy into the ability to detect it by sound though.


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## sqkcrk

"only gets the ones on the surface of the wood." So, the spores under the surface of the wood, how do the bees get to them?

Just curious Acebird, what are you going after? Do you have or suspect an AFB problem? And your Thread is titled Signs of AFB infestation, but we seem to have gotten off onto the subject of addressing the infection, ie AFB Control.


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## Acebird

> this is one of the reasons for wax dipping used woodenware, and you do not need to kill the spores with such high heat


For wax dipping it is only 293 degrees for 10 minutes for total eradication. There is a slight chance that wax moths could eat a protective layer if that is all it is.


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## deknow

irradiation is the gold standard, and it allows you to keep the comb as well.


for info on what Jerry is doing with sound:
http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/210118.html

deknow


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## Oldtimer

In my country, burning is compulsary. However dipping of boxes only, in parafin wax is permitted, provided it's the right temperature and time in the dip. Scorching boxes is also permitted but my own personal opinion is I don't recommend it.

Some people where I find AFB have a hive already pretty old, a new super can be purchaed here for around US$9.00. But they want to put a ton of effort and expense into saving their old 1/2 worn out one. Often, just from a purely economic perspective, there's not a whole lot of advantage in not just burning the lot.

Here's some pics taken of an AFB case in my own bees, caused, almost certainly, by the laziness of somebody else.
The top pic is the "ropiness test". The infected larvae turn into a goobie mass, about the color of coffee with milk. You poke a stick in, give it a little stir, then see if it will rope out. If it ropes out to the extent shown in the pic, it's AFB. There is no other cause of death of larvae that will make them rope out like this. Sometimes a little bit, but not like shown in the pic.














Below is how I treated the infection, the hive was all new gear just months old and carefully made. In the end I burned 4 hives at this location, but it's over now. The remaining hives stayed quaranteened but have now been moved at the landowners request as he got machinery in to clear the bush. The AFB was fully eliminated so the rest of my hives are safe, and so is everybody around me, which is even more important.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> There is a slight chance that wax moths could eat a protective layer if that is all it is.


Wax moths don't eat wax.


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## Acebird

> Just curious Acebird, what are you going after? Do you have or suspect an AFB problem? [


No I don't. But what if someone else does or what if it should happen to me in the future? I can't just burn a hive. I live in a city like millions of other people that may have hives. As a hobbyist I have the time to disinfect a hive and as a hobbyist that time cost me nothing. Commercial beeks have other considerations and maybe burning the hive is their best choice. There needs to be a reliable way of dealing with this for all those hobby beeks that live in high rises. Maybe the answer is dipping. Whether it is considered treatment or not on this forum people may consider that as a choice. ETO is a choice. Autoclave is a choice. They are just not good choices for hobbyist.


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## kennedy

acebird some treatment free use unlimted brood nest management . in a timley way[ 8frames of brood or so ] spread 3 or so frames of brood from the middle of the bottom deep in to a deep on top.fill in the bottom with sc comb. in the top fill in with empty comb get the gueen working in two boxes. keep spreding but not so much that the bees cant cover it .so brood will stay warm thats the best way i think to run a hive if afb is around run all your yard that way big and strong dont spread between hives if it is around check your weak hives last regards kennedy


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## sqkcrk

Believe it or not, quite often, the strongest hives are the ones w/ the disease. Check 'em all.


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## FarmerJ

March at our class at UMN, we had a hive that we could look at the had AFB. They showed us how to inspect for it with a black light. The stuff really showed up. Stunk pretty good too.


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## Oldtimer

I think Kennedy means check the weak hives because they may be weakened because they have been diseased for some time, and that's always a good plan.

But also, my own experience is the same as Sqkcrk, the big strong hives are the most at risk of contracting AFB, I think it's just they have more bees out foraging and maybe robbing, new AFB infections are usually in the best hives.


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## sqkcrk

What does it look like under the black light? Did you have to use it inside in the dark? I have heard of that in the past, but have never seen it used.


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## FarmerJ

almost like a white shirt. You need to look at it from an angle though. We did it in a room in a museum. It wasn't bad with the lights on, but when you turned the lights out directly over head, it really showed up. So the darker the better I would say.


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## rrussell6870

We use this method of testing in the evening of warm or hot months... just shake the bees from the brood frames, scan over each one... fairly quick and painless... I REQUIRE it before any hives are moved period... testing and immediate action is the responsible thing to do... if you are truly a bee keeper, you must address such issues... I can't see how someone can say that they want to "help the bees and the environment", yet risk not only the bees in their own hives, but also the wild/feral bees, other managed bees, and other pollenators as well, just to save a buck... that is ridiculous and terribly selfish. Let's stop trying to re-invent the wheel and simply destroy infected colonies... a few boxes of wax is NOT that important, the damage you do by "playing" or sitting on your hands IS that important. You may think it sounds easy enough to "bake" away the troubles, but try doing it on a hive that is NOT infected first... just to see if you can safely contain all possible contaminants during the process... 

Care about bees, the environment and science? Then do what is RIGHT for them, not what saves you a few bucks... it is things like this that give all of us that try to move away from treating a bad name.

Developing bees that do not HAVE to be treated to survive and thrive is the goal... NOT developing ways to save a few bucks at the expense of others and the environment... that sounds more like the "Walmart of beekeeping" to me...


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## Birdman

Acebird said:


> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2672.2001.01376.x/full#f3
> 
> 
> Complete decontamination at 338 F for two hours. Doable in a standard oven and safer than dipping. Scorching is not recommended.


 I think it would catch fire with in 2 hours.


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## rrussell6870

I do too, and apparently so does Dean... can't burn a hive in the city? How about an oven, house, or building? That is terribly dangerous on many levels... if you think you have afb, but don't know how to test for it, call for an inspectors help, if you dont know how to do so, pm me, and I will do it for you, if there is not an inspector available, we will find an experienced beek close enough to you to do it... if it is afb, I will even help you locate and work with a waste management service... the testing methods were well answered in this thread... listen to the wisdom that is offered... it comes from sound minds and thousands of years of dealing with afb... you will not find some miracle answers these people have simply not thought of...


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## kennedy

are you saying make splits ?if my neighbor comes down with afb or split my large hives up in yards with afb?ill try i if you think it will help kind regards kennedy


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## sqkcrk

kennedy, what are you writing about?


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## sevenmmm

This is an interesting thread and I like reading all the different opinions. My State Apiarist told me AFB is not a problem in Wisconsin, but since I bought used equipment, am thinking about some type treatment just to be _safer_. 

There are now more options on my table, thanx for starting this topic.


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## Acebird

> you will not find some miracle answers these people have simply not thought of...


With that attitude nothing will ever be discovered that hasn't been discovered by now. It might be your philosophy but it isn't mine. New discoveries are made every day. What was done in yesteryear has been found to be the wrong thing to do today. What is your argument? That heat will not destroy micro organisms? Start listening to the wisdom of those that know differently.



> I think it would catch fire with in 2 hours.


I hear the scare tactic. Show me the science.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Start listening to the wisdom of those that know differently.
> 
> 
> 
> I hear the scare tactic.


I believe that this is an over reaction to someone voice an opinion and suggesting cautious behavior.

What about my statement that wax moths don't eat wax and my question about how do the bees access the spores below the wood's surface?


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## Acebird

> I believe that this is an over reaction to someone voice an opinion and suggesting cautious behavior.


I guess that the assumption is that I am not cautious.



> What about my statement that wax moths don't eat wax and my question about how do the bees access the spores below the wood's surface?


Well if they don't than why are there countless number of photos showing destruction of comb? If a spore can find its way below the surface it can certainly find it way out. If you scrap off the chard wood it doesn't have to; it is now at the surface. If you are going to tell me that you are going to singe the wood and immediately dip it there is an argument for safety but then why char it in the first place?


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## Omie

kennedy said:


> are you saying make splits ?if my neighbor comes down with afb or split my large hives up in yards with afb?ill try i if you think it will help kind regards kennedy





sqkcrk said:


> kennedy, what are you writing about?


He's responding to where Oldtimer said:


> But also, my own experience is the same as Sqkcrk, the big strong hives are the most at risk of contracting AFB, I think it's just they have more bees out foraging and maybe robbing, new AFB infections are usually in the best hives.


He's asking if he splits his large strong hives then will they be less likely to get his neighbor's AFB.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> I guess that the assumption is that I am not cautious.
> 
> 
> 
> Well if they don't than why are there countless number of photos showing destruction of comb? If a spore can find its way below the surface it can certainly find it way out.


I don't think anyone was making that assumption. But it doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I don't recall you ever saying that you were going to do that?

Wax moths destroy comb by burrowing through it to get to the pollen. It is pollen that they are feeding on. The wax is in the way.

How do the spores get below the surface of the wood? Osmosis?


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## Barry

sqkcrk said:


> It is pollen that they are feeding on.


Partially true. They also feed on the cocoons of the cells.


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## Oldtimer

Omie said:


> He's asking if he splits his large strong hives then will they be less likely to get his neighbor's AFB.


Oh I see.

Well kinda, maybe. But as AFB is still a pretty rare disease it's probably not worth splitting hives to stop them getting it. But one or two inspections of the brood per annum is still a good plan to ensure they don't have the disease.

Taking a historical approach, it's just when AFB does get very rare and most new beeks have never seen it, that people slacken off and then the incidence of AFB starts to increase.

Surprisingly enough though, mites have been helpful in AFB control, at least in my country. They've got rid of neglected hives, and feral hives. Only leaving hives where people are taking the trouble to manage them, and therefore, more likely to discover an AFB infection.

But in some ways mites have been a step backwards, in that literature is circulating about running hives with mites treatment free. This has led some people to the conclusion you don't have to do anything about AFB either, not understanding that AFB is a whole different ball game.


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## AR Beekeeper

If a beekeeper really wants to learn about AFB he should buy a copy of "ELIMINATION OF AMERICAN FOULBROOD WITHOUT THE USE OF DRUGS" by Mark Goodwin and Cliff Van Eaton. It has all the information you need to control AFB in one small manual.


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## sqkcrk

Good suggestion AR. When was it printed? How many pages thick is it?


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## kennedy

ace bird spread your brood and make big strong hive .dont keep a bunch of little sick dinks there all talking about regards kennedy


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## heaflaw

Could someone explain the blacklight test in more detail, please?


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## rrussell6870

Acebird said:


> With that attitude nothing will ever be discovered that hasn't been discovered by now. It might be your philosophy but it isn't mine. New discoveries are made every day. What was done in yesteryear has been found to be the wrong thing to do today. What is your argument? That heat will not destroy micro organisms? Start listening to the wisdom of those that know differently.
> 
> 
> 
> I hear the scare tactic. Show me the science.


That's right, new discoveries ARE made all the time, and if you want to make a new discovery on something, I say go for it... EXCEPT for when we are talking about a tremendously tenacious infectious bee disease when you can't even inspect your one hive... I'm not trying to come down on you, but you just seem to be very flippant about this whole thing and based on posts, you either A. Have a suspicion that your hive has afb, or B. You simply want to dismiss any logic that is not your own... I wouldn't care one bit, except for the fact that you are discussing alternative means for dealing with a terrible disease that you have no experience with in a control atmosphere that you have no experience with... that alone is dangerous enough, not to mention the oven filled with wax in an urban area... 

It was not me that used what you called a "scare tactic" but "show you the science"? Why?


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## Oldtimer

AR Beekeeper said:


> If a beekeeper really wants to learn about AFB he should buy a copy of "ELIMINATION OF AMERICAN FOULBROOD WITHOUT THE USE OF DRUGS" by Mark Goodwin and Cliff Van Eaton. It has all the information you need to control AFB in one small manual.


Yes, an excellent booklet, tells you everything you NEED to know. I didn't know any of our little New Zealand books were for sale in other countries!

Some of the posts on this thread are clearly from people who have never really thought about AFB, or understand the actual mechanics of the disease. 

The Beesource community deserve an informed discussion on this important topic rather than just what people who have not studied the disease, "think". I'd particularly recommend this booklet to Barry, Sol, and Acebird.


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## peacekeeperapiaries

well ACEBIRD, I think if there is someone here who can "show you the science" its RRUSSELL6870 who happens to be an entomologist and has about 5000 hives which are dedicated to finding new methods of dealing with bee problems and diseases....having dealt with AFB and having had to "burn a yard"....I choose to eradicate it quickly....burn the infected hives....here in FL its the law.....burn the infected hives ASAP


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## bevy's honeybees

I have read all 5 pages of this thread. My state inspector found afb in one of my recently aquired hives, a feral hive I've had for a couple months. I am almost obsessed now with reading and anxiety. I followed his instructions for what I needed to do with that hive but I fear I spread to other hives before knowing this hive had infection. I wore same gear and hive tool and worked most of my other hives after aquiring this particular hive. I ordered antibiotic at his recommendation and will treat my other hives, inspect bi-weekly. I have some frames that I'm not sure came into contact, I want to bake those outside like I read. I still have my gear, I hoped I could find a way to sterilize them. I have new gloves that were not used on the infected hive but are they now infected after working with my other hives? I also searched the internet for local possibility of irradication and I found a company but it's not gamma radiation. 

None of the readings talk about antibiotics, any particular reason?

Until now, I was a chemical free beekeeper (not one single varroa mite found in any of my hives by inspector) and only paint tops of lids as to avoid paint toxins. I am so bummed.


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## rrussell6870

Don't lose hope... wash you tools with soap and water well... if you are still concerned about them, rub them down with rubbing alcohol, bleach, or a surgical scrub (very handy by the way)...

Did you destroy the infected hive? Once it reaches the threshold of being considered "infected", its best to cut your losses and just destroy it... 

The other hives may be fine still... one thing to remember is that it lives in all honey bee colonies, but is not a problem unless it reaches the "infection" threshold, which usually takes some other issue to allow it to do so, such as cross contamination, but usually at a slightly larger scale like robbing... don't lose face about your treatment free hopes... this is hopefully just a speed-bump, or at worst, a hurdle that you can get over in time... 

Treating now to help rid the other hives of possible contaminants from that one will not have a genetic effect on your bees that have been doing so well against mites... after the treatment period is over, you will be able to resume your practices and the bees will not lose any resistances that they have developed thus far... this is just one treatment after x# of years after all, and only due to bringing an aggressive outer infection IN to you apiaries... it will start your "clock" over again, but its not the end by far, and keep in mind that NO mellifera is immune to afb... in actuality, you have done a very good job. 

Since this forum is based on the ideals of Not treating, the mention of preventative treatment has been avoided... that is why you didn't find anything about it in this thread... however, you can post your questions about preventative treatments in the "disease and pests" forum and get a ton of helpful responses. Good luck!

Ps... please be careful when heating combs... there are many different levels of density and chemical composites that can alter the flash point of combs... all it takes is one tiny spot to ignite and the rest will ignite very quickly... combs can create an extremely dangerous and intense fire that can spread quickly and is hard to extinguish... as with any fire, putting it out is Far more complicated once it HAS to be done...


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## Oldtimer

Hi Bevy's Honeybees, just some more information also.

AFB is hard to spread to another hive, it is not like most diseases where just one spore can cause an infection.

To kill a larva, the larva has to be infected with quite a few AFB spores. The spores multiply, and at pupation they penetrate the gut wall of the larva, causing the larva to die. They then turn the whole larva into brown goobie muck, which sticks onto everything and gets spread around the hive, infecting more larva.

The good news though, is that if a larva gets just one spore, the spore cannot breed into enough of them to kill the larva at pupation. So the bee does not die, and the infection is not spread. the disease can only succeed if the larva is initially infected by many AFB spores. That is why many hives can have a few AFB spores but never show the disease. There are not enough spores to all get into one larva and cause the larva to die, so the disease never shows up, and in fact the number of spores in the hive will slowly reduce over time.

So even though you have used the hive tool on other hives, depending how much actual contact, if enough spores were not transfered, your other hives will be fine.

That is why you wash your gloves with water. You may not remove every last spore, but you greatly reduce them, so transmission to a hive of a fatal dose is less likely.

A simple killer for AFB spores is bleach. Washing any infected material in water with bleach will kill the spores.

Please do not wear yourself out inspecting your hives twice a week. Once a fortnight is probably more than enough. After two or 3 months reduce this even more, to monthly, and even less. Your hives will quite likely be fine, but there is that chance there has been transmission of enough infected material, so therefore you do need to be vigilant. Best plan is quaranteen each hive, ie, boxes, frames, etc that are taken off the hives, are only put back to the same hive. If you can go a full 12 months without any infection it's most likely the hives are OK. If you can go 24 months, consider the hives free of the disease.


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## rrussell6870

Just wanted to make one more attempt at getting this across... the threat levels in your Area are as important a concern as those within your colony... Oldtimer has never used antibiotics... they are illegal in NZ, so no one uses them for preventative treatment, but they keep infections down not by control from within the hive, but by controlling/limiting the threats within the area itself... by destroying infected colonies, they limit the spread, isolate the cause and go on about their lives... 

This can be done with pests as well... USING the needs of the mites to your advantage... take away any one of those needs and the mites will perish... continue this process and the area will be almost "mite free"... SO LONG AS, you use caution about bringing in new colonies (ie, packages, nucs, and hives)... the terms "treatment free" and "feral" on some things can bring you the very thing that you have worked so long to fight against...


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## deejaycee

I'm exhausted just reading the effort put into this thread by rrussell and OldTimer - gents, you have my respect and thanks for your efforts.

Acebird, please, reread everything they've said and take it to heart. You won't get better advice on this matter, and it's exactly what I would have said had I arrived earlier.

And for cryin out loud, go find something else to pit your experimental wits against - hive design, mite control, gene expression, something, there are an endless list of things you can tinker with - but in this one thing, just play by the dang book. 

In answer to your initial query re symptoms: 

http://afb.org.nz/symptons

There may be odour or there may not. No, there are no clear symptoms on adult bees or visible from outside the hive. The disease kills brood only at the pre-pupal and early pupal stage. Brood inspection is it. 

Elimination of foulbrood manual available from the NZ NBA - about third down the page: 

http://nba.org.nz/publications


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## Michael Bush

>Wax moths don't eat wax. 

Actually they do and that has been known since at least 1922...

http://books.google.com/books?id=R8...BA#v=onepage&q=wax moth digesting wax&f=false

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jcp.1030030206/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1959.tb36909.x/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1959.tb36909.x/abstract

http://awac2006.com/articles/experimental-biophysics

Beeswax in the nutrition of the wax moth, Galleria mellonella (L.)

R.H. Dadda

aDepartment of Entomology and Parasitology, University of California, Berkeley, California*USA
Received 12 July 1966. 
Available online 1 October 2003.

Abstract

Larvae of Galleria mellonella grow as well on a semi-synthetic diet if sugar or carbohydrate, optimally present to the extent of 30 to 40 per cent of the diet as originally developed, is replaced entirely or in part by white beeswax. Myricin, a refined product of beeswax consisting largely of long-chain esters of palmitic acid and myricyl alcohol, was utilized as well as beeswax, but none of several simple fatty acids and alcohols, ranging in chain length from C14 to C30, nor four esters of palmitic acid, were effective substitutes for beeswax.
References

Beck, 1960S.D. Beck, Growth and development of the greater wax moth, Galleria mellonella (L.) (Lepidoptera: Galleriidae), Trans. Wis. Acad. Sci. Arts Lett. 49 (1960), pp. 137–148.

Dadd, 1964R.H. Dadd, A study of carbohydrate and lipid nutrition in the wax moth, Galleria mellonella (L.), using partially synthetic diets, J. Insect Physiol. 10 (1964), pp. 161–178. Abstract | PDF (1388 K) | View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (1)

Dickman, 1933A. Dickman, Studies on the waxmoth, Galleria mellonella with particular reference to the digestion of wax by the larvae, J. cell. comp. Physiol. 3 (1933), pp. 223–246. Full Text via CrossRef

Niemierko and Wlodawer, 1950W. Niemierko and P. Wlodawer, Studies on the biochemistry of the wax moth (Galleria mellonella)—II. Utilization of wax constituents by the larvae, Acta Biol. exp., Vars. 15 (1950), pp. 69–76.

Niemierko and Wlodawer, 1952W. Niemierko and P. Wlodawer, Studies on the biochemistry on the wax moth (Galleria mellonella)—VII. The digestion of wax and utilization of unsaponifiable substances by larvae, Acta Biol. exp., Vars. 16 (1952), pp. 157–170.

Piek, 1962T. Piek, Over de vorming van was bij de honingbijj (Apis mellifera L.), Thesis, University of Utrecht, Netherlands (1962).

Rybicki, 1952M. Rybicki, The participation of the intestinal microflora in the nourishing process of larvae of Galleria mellonella L., Annls Univ. Mariae Curie—Skklodowska (C) 8 (1952), pp. 15–66 (English summary).

Warth, 1947A.H. Warth, The Chemistry and Technology of Waxes, Reinhold, New York (1947), p. 49.

Waterhouse, 1959D.F. Waterhouse, Axenic culture of wax moths for digestion studies, Ann. N.Y. Acad. Sci. 77 (1959), pp. 283–289.

Wlodawer, 1954P. Wlodawer, Digestion and metabolism of wax by the wax moth (English summary), Soc. Sci. Lodziensis 29 (3) (1954), pp. 1–30.

Young, 1961R.G. Young, The effects of dietary beeswax and wax components on the larvae of the greater wax moth, Galleria mellonella (L.), Ann. ent. Soc. Am. 54 (1961), pp. 657–659.

Young, 1964aR.G. Young, Lipids of the larva of the greater wax moth, Galleria mellonella (L.), Ann. ent. Soc. Am. 57 (1964), pp. 321–324.

Young, 1964bR.G. Young, Digestion of wax by the greater wax moth, Galleria mellonella (L.), Ann. ent. Soc. Am. 57 (1964), pp. 325–327.

* Most of the experimental work described in this paper was done during tenure of a Canadian National Research Council Post-Doctoral Fellowship at the Research Institute, Canada Department of Agriculture, Belleville, Ontario, Canada. 


With one disenting that I found:

http://resources.wardsci.com/livecare/waxworms/

But I think perhaps their point wasn't that they can't digest it (although that is what it says) so much as they they need other things to live.


----------



## jim lyon

Great job by some very reasoned and informed folks. Our family acquired some diseased equipment years ago and it has been a long haul ridding our operation of it. Always look at used equipment with suspicion and always be vigilant when doing hive inspections. All I can do is agree with most of what I am reading on here, it appears that enlightened thinking may win the day!


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## jim lyon

Didnt want to challenge Mark on his post as it is true that wax moth is most attracted to dark brood comb with pollen stores, but anyone who has tried to render many wax damaged combs will realize the more moth damage the less wax is left, same is true for any honey left in them.


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## Oldtimer

Actually I'm not sure I agree with that research. I've never had a problem when storing clean white combs. A few moths will get in, sure. But they'll do poorly, and next season those boxes will be ready to go straight back on the hives no cleanup needed. But storing combs with pollen or dark brood combs, once moths get in there is a problem. They are likely to be unusable by next season.

Wax moths are raised by museums and zoos to feed insectivores such as lizards or frogs. The wax moths are fed purely on commercially bought pollen, no wax at all. That's why they are used, they are extremely nutricious and the animals thrive on them.


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## Solomon Parker

Pretty sure wax moths are not a sign of AFB. Let's keep it on topic.


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## Oldtimer

Well, thay are natures little AFB deadout cleaning crew. So all things have their place in the grand scheme of things!


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## Acebird

> How do the spores get below the surface of the wood? Osmosis?


http://books.google.com/books?id=bw...#v=onepage&q=space between wood cells&f=false

Read the part on “Shrinkage and Swelling” page 90. Cells separate to allow spores to enter. Remember spores are microcopic.



> I have new gloves that were not used on the infected hive but are they now infected after working with my other hives?


I don’t use leather gloves because they can’t be cleaned. I use rubber gloves and always clean my hands gloves and tool after each use. I avoid anything pertaining to the hive to make contact with my suit. However I can’t prevent the bees from landing on me but they usually don’t.

Oldtimer, I know it is a technicality but spores don’t multiply. They have to turn into bacteria form a colony in order to survive and produce more spores. Bacteria cannot survive on their own just like bees cannot survive on their own. There needs to be a large enough quantity to form a colony.



> This can be done with pests as well... USING the needs of the mites to your advantage... take away any one of those needs and the mites will perish... continue this process and the area will be almost "mite free"... SO LONG AS, you use caution about bringing in new colonies


If it doesn’t break the rules of this forum I would like to know what “so long as, you use caution” means.


----------



## Jim 134

Solomon Parker said:


> Pretty sure wax moths are not a sign of AFB. Let's keep it on topic.



But it can bee 



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Acebird

> having dealt with AFB and having had to "burn a yard"....I choose to eradicate it quickly....burn the infected hives....here in FL its the law.....burn the infected hives ASAP


What about states and countries that don't have that law? What about states that have a law but have no way of policing it? What about the transportation between regions with different laws. Is it concevable that some people ignore the law and do nothing? Would it be better to sterilize the hive by other means rather than do nothing?

This is a forum. We discuss good and bad ideas alike. Is it better to not discuss them at all?


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## honeyshack

Acebird said:


> I don’t use leather gloves because they can’t be cleaned. I use rubber gloves and always clean my hands gloves and tool after each use. I avoid anything pertaining to the hive to make contact with my suit. However I can’t prevent the bees from landing on me but they usually don’t.


Wow! I always have bees landing on my suit. And i can never keep my suit clean except for walking to the first yard of hives.

AFB should never be toyed with, experimented with or practice benign neglect. Only one way to treat it. As others have said...burn! Not only are we playing with the health of our own healthy colonies, but we are also playing with the health of other beekeepers colonies who are close by if we do nothing.
This is one disease which everyone should play by the book. Our industry depends on it!


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## Barry

rrussell6870 said:


> Care about bees, the environment and science? Then do what is RIGHT for them, not what saves you a few bucks... it is things like this that give all of us that try to move away from treating a bad name.


So here you're coming down hard on any discussion that doesn't follow the ridged practice of burning, and yet you will freely share how to use non approved chemicals in a non approved method for dealing with SHB. And then there are the blue shop towels, and the . . .


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## Barry

Oldtimer said:


> The Beesource community deserve an informed discussion on this important topic rather than just what people who have not studied the disease, "think". I'd particularly recommend this booklet to Barry, Sol, and Acebird.


Oh pleeease. How many times is one required to read different books before we "reach" the level of Zen? I'll speak for myself. This isn't about knowing what the textbook knowledge is of AFB. It's there for all to read. This is a discussion forum where people are free to share their thoughts, question each other, question the "standard practice", etc. But the tone is becoming a bit condescending.


----------



## Solomon Parker

I don't even know how I got dragged into this. I haven't even posted before this page. I haven't even posted my actual views on AFB.


----------



## NasalSponge

> I don’t use leather gloves because they can’t be cleaned. I use rubber gloves and always clean my hands gloves and tool after each use. I avoid anything pertaining to the hive to make contact with my suit. However I can’t prevent the bees from landing on me but they usually don’t.


My question is you go thru all this and yet went how long without ever inspecting your brood boxes??


----------



## Omie

*The signs of AFB Infestation* ...were nicely listed by Mark on the 3rd post of this thread. I can only imagine what newbies would think of all the subsequent postings.
I'm not even sure why this thread subject would need to be in the treatment free forum. Untold future new BK's will do general searches for the signs of AFB and come upon all this weird banter.


----------



## sqkcrk

Michael Bush said:


> >Wax moths don't eat wax.
> 
> Actually they do and that has been known since at least 1922...


Thank you for teaching me something I didn't know. Most informative.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> What about states and countries that don't have that law? What about states that have a law but have no way of policing it? What about the transportation between regions with different laws. Is it concevable that some people ignore the law and do nothing? Would it be better to sterilize the hive by other means rather than do nothing?
> 
> This is a forum. We discuss good and bad ideas alike. Is it better to not discuss them at all?


You should get a copy of NY State Bee Laws, since you live in NY.
Do you only obey the laws that are Policed? Do you not have a moral obligation to adhere to the laws of the State of NY and the United States?
Transportation of Colonies infected w/ diseases and infested w/ pests and some kinds of bees is regulated by the States and is for the most part a legal matter.

Certainly doing nothing is irresponsible on the bkprs part. Whatever one does should be effective and completed in a manner that other colonies would not be exposed to contamination.

There was a time when, in NY, bkprs were legally obligated to notify the Commissioner of Agriculture and Markets when he wished to mover beehives and equipment. That Law is still on the books. I don't know of anyone who honors it.

As is true w/ the Speed Limit.


----------



## sqkcrk

Omie said:


> *The signs of AFB Infestation* ...were nicely listed by Mark on the 3rd post of this thread. I can only imagine what newbies would think of all the subsequent postings.
> I'm not even sure why this thread subject would need to be in the treatment free forum.


Thanks Omie. I wondered that same thing too. Just as I have about other TF Threads. Why would what one is doing now be any, or much, different in TF or non?


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## rrussell6870

Omie, actually I think it may teach a valuable lesson to people wanting to be treatment free...

1. There are some conditions that simply must be addressed if encountered and failing to do Anything about those issues can derail the initial intentions of better bee health. So treatment free operations must consider testing and developing an effective corrective policy for such cases.

2. When operating a treatment free apiary, every level of caution must be used before bringing in new colonies and possible contaminants... 

Your right, the question was answered many times over...


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## WLC

Do you mean this?

http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/resources/NYapiarylaw.htm

However, I thought that they got rid of the inspectors in NYS?

Here's another resource:

http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/resources.htm#regulations


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## frazzledfozzle

Acebird said:


> I don’t use leather gloves because they can’t be cleaned. I use rubber gloves and always clean my hands gloves and tool after each use. I avoid anything pertaining to the hive to make contact with my suit. However I can’t prevent the bees from landing on me but they usually don’t.
> .


From this quote Acebird it sounds like you have AFB? or are you talking about how you would work a hive if you did have AFB?

I dont understand how you can go from not knowing how to crack a box or what a frame of pollen is to being an expert on how to deal with AFB in just a days?

Bottom line is you dont play with AFB I dont care if your hives are crosscontaminated and die but if your ways of " dealing" with AFB affect my hives then I'm going to be very seriously upset.

It dosn't matter if a rule or law is policed it comes down to common decency and being a responsible beekeeper, If anyone has to ask about such a thing then I would question what that person is made of.


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## Oldtimer

Solomon Parker said:


> I haven't even posted my actual views on AFB.


You had better read this thread and refresh your memory. It’s just a few days ago!
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?252377-Treatment-Free-Management-best-Practices




Acebird said:


> Oldtimer, I know it is a technicality but spores don’t multiply. They have to turn into bacteria form a colony in order to survive and produce more spores.


Just to show I will actually agree with you if you are correct, in this case I was technically wrong in the words I said, I stand corrected, I should have used the words vegetative bacteria or similar for what the spores become, rather than just say they multiply.





Barry said:


> Oh pleeease. How many times is one required to read different books before we "reach" the level of Zen? I'll speak for myself. This isn't about knowing what the textbook knowledge is of AFB. It's there for all to read. This is a discussion forum where people are free to share their thoughts, question each other, question the "standard practice", etc. But the tone is becoming a bit condescending.


Yes I was condescending, I realised that at the time.

However some of the bad information was stated as more than just a question. Anything a moderator says, is regarded by some newbies, as probably correct. 

How many books to read? Entirely over to the person. But someone who has never read anything factual on AFB, never had AFB, never seen AFB, may not be the best source of info on AFB. That may not be you Barry I don’t know what you know, but I do know it is at least one other person here who has been dispensing advice and sounding like he is knowledgeable.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Do you mean this?
> 
> http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/resources/NYapiarylaw.htm
> 
> However, I thought that they got rid of the inspectors in NYS?
> 
> Here's another resource:
> 
> http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/resources.htm#regulations


Yes, that's what I was refering to. I knew someone could find it.

I don't know the details, but yes, The Apiary Inspection Program has pretty much become defunked. The only Inspection going on these days is to certify colonies for Interstate Transport Purposes. Balancing the State Budget and lack of support by the Bkprs of NY has led to this.


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## jim lyon

Omie: I actually do believe this forum is an excellent place for a discussion on AFB as long as one is not advocating specific treatments for it. It is important for folks who are pursuing the goal of being treatment free (certainly not a bad thing) to be educated on how to identify it, to understand the dangers of, and then to have some sort of plan for dealing with AFB if it occurs in their hives for the betterment of every beekeeper.


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## Solomon Parker

Oldtimer said:


> You had better read this thread and refresh your memory. It’s just a few days ago!
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?252377-Treatment-Free-Management-best-Practices


If one does go read the thread, you will find these gems of mine. 
"I've thought about if I'd do it like Dee or burn, or some sort of hybrid if I ever got AFB. I guess I'll never know until it happens."
"I'm not advocating anything other than treatment-free beekeeping."
"So I don't know who's peeing in your pool, but it's not me." 

If you're expecting me to forget what I say, you're pokin' at the wrong dude. I have never advocated any position on AFB. One thing that is sure, treatment-free does not equal neglect. Burning is not listed in the definition as a treatment.


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## WLC

I'm under the impression that 'real' treatment free beekeepers would prefer to allow their bees to develop resistance.

That's the philosophy as far as I understand it.

From a Biological standpoint, it's possible given Maori's discovery of retrotransposition of RNA into the Honeybee genome and RNAi.

So, yes. There's something there. The molecular mechanism does exist. There's evidence for it here in the U.S. .

But, how is a beekeeper going to know if they truly have bees that have become resistant?

Or, have some of you done this on 'faith'?


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## Acebird

> 2. When operating a treatment free apiary, every level of caution must be used before bringing in new colonies and possible contaminants...


I am still looking for what that means “level of caution”.



> Burning is not listed in the definition as a treatment.


I believe we, excuse me, you decided that dipping was not listed in the definition as treatment also. Do I have that right?


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## Oldtimer

Sol, those "gems" of yours, are not the only pearls of wisdom that have dropped from your lips on the subject. To say you have not advocated a position on the subject is, well, false. You have even advocated disbedience to the law, justifying that by saying you will take your punishment. But that is not the spirit of the law. A rapist, who is caught and does time, and is then released, is still a rapist, wether or not he was caught and did his time, it does not justify what he did.

I don't understand your attitude that came across in that thread Sol. For mites, you advocate letting hives that succumb die. And not letting the bees become overwhelmed by mite infectations from other hives, especially ones that have been treated.

But when others, like me, advocate the same approach with AFB, you have a problem. It must be because of who said it.

My approach to AFB is to not allow hives to be overwhelmed with infection from other hives, and hives that do succumb are destroyed (survival of the fittest). To have a problem with that is inconsistant.

However I do know where your coming from, having read your endorsement of Dees method of spreading small amounts of infection between hives. But Dees method is flawed. That she gets away with it at all is not about immunity, but about the mechanics of the disease, and the spore level required in a hive to start symptoms being visible. But even then, she is not fully getting away with it, she has a lingering AFB problem, continues to lose hives to it, and always will as long as she follows this flawed logic.

Remember that unlike mites, AFB has been with bees for millenia. the quest for immunity via survival of the fittest, has already been happening for thousands of years. Immunity exists. But Dee will not achieve it using her methods, in one human lifetime. If Dee had destroyed all infected material when she first got the disease, she could have been done with it, and not be losing hives to it now.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> I'm under the impression that 'real' treatment free beekeepers would prefer to allow their bees to develop resistance.
> 
> But, how is a beekeeper going to know if they truly have bees that have become resistant?


I believe what is called AFB Resistance is actually House Cleaning Ability, a heritable trait that can be selected for in Queen Rearing. But, when selecting for one trait like that results in loss of other desireable characteristics, like honey production.


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## Solomon Parker

Alastair, if you have a quote, I'd love to see it.


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## Roland

To start a new tangent, if allowed:

Does any one know of any non chemical methods, besides heat, to destroy Paenabacillus(sp?) spores?

Crazy Roland


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## WLC

Gamma irradiation.


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## WLC

If you mean hygienic when you refer to house cleaning, as far as I know, it's recessive.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> I am still looking for what that means "level of caution".


I'll take a stab at it.

One should take a "level of caution" when bringing hives into ones apiary or equipment. Be caustious. Know the health or condition of anything you are adding to your apiary. When buying a nuc, make sure it is healthy. ie: free of AFB, EFB or any other disease. In otherwords, know what you have and know what you are buying and bringing into your apiary.


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## Omie

sqkcrk said:


> The Apiary Inspection Program has pretty much become defunked.


Defunked? Well, good that we no longer need worry about icky _Inspection Program funk_! :lpf:

(Or is it maybe ...defunct?)


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## Acebird

> When buying a nuc, make sure it is healthy. ie: free of AFB, EFB or any other disease. In otherwords, know what you have and know what you are buying and bringing into your apiary.


Beat me up if you will but I am sure I am not alone. I didn't have a clue what was coming into my hive. As I have said in other posts we bought an established hive from a bee keeper that is well educated and has been doing it for over 50 years. The way it works is you supply a hive body with 5 frames. He takes those empty frames and puts in frames from his hive or maybe someone else's hive. That's how we got the old and plastic frames that someone commented about. There is no telling how old they were and where they came from or where they have been.
I'll make another comment. Most newbies don't spend hours on a forum learning what they don't know. They read a couple of books and that is about the size of it. I have learned alot from these forums. I suspect I will learn a lot more.


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## sqkcrk

Heh, heh. Whatever. Glad I could bring some entertainment into your life.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Beat me up if you will but I am sure I am not alone. I have learned alot from these forums. I suspect I will learn a lot more.


I love your attitude. If you don't want an answer, don't ask. I did the best I can to answer you.


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## Omie

Can AFB arrive to you in packages as well as nucs?


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## Acebird

> If you don't want an answer, don't ask. I did the best I can to answer you.


You are taking me the wrong way. I am always looking for answers and I did appreciate all of yours.


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## sqkcrk

Then I don't understand the "you can beat me up iof you want to" phrase.


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## Oldtimer

Omie said:


> Can AFB arrive to you in packages as well as nucs?


 Yes, but even if a package is taken from an AFB infected hive, the disease may not always be transfered to the new hive.

A method, known as "shook swarming" used to be used to control AFB, although it is only partially effective and is now illegal in my country. What was done, when a hive was discovered with AFB, before burning the hive, the bees would be shaken into a cardboard box or similar, and allowed to stay there till they had built combs. Just before their first larvae pupate, they are shaken again, into a proper hive. This would often work, as the AFB spores they were still carrying would often not be enough to cause an infection in the new hive. But it didn't work often enough, for our government to become concerned about the risks, and ban the practise.

The thing is, when drugs may not be used, as is the case in my country, it is imperitive that EVERYBODY play the game. Hence the need for legislation. Thanks to our policies New Zealand moved from a country with AFB at epidemic levels, to one of the lowest incidences of AFB in the world. Because of the good results, our policies and legislation have strong support from nearly 100% of our beekeepers.


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## Barry

Oldtimer said:


> it is imperitive that EVERYBODY play the game.


I'm all for playing it. I'm still going to discuss all options though. We know burning is effective, and as far as I'm concerned, hive bodies are the least expensive component to lose, so I wouldn't waste my time trying to save them. The frames and wax is far more valuable. Has anyone simply heated frames to the recommended temperature and time? I already know that there are beekeepers that render the wax and reuse. I wouldn't do any of this except burn if I had one hive get AFB, but if one ended up with a handful of hives or more, it would quickly become cost effective to try and salvage the wax and frames. Why didn't some of you who have had AFB do this?


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## heaflaw

Oldtimer,

What is the reasoning behind not allowing antibiotic treatments in NZ?


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## Oldtimer

Barry said:


> I'm all for playing it. I'm still going to discuss all options though.


A commendable attitude I doubt many will have a problem with that.



Barry said:


> Why didn't some of you who have had AFB do this?


You assume to much, I think some people here really DO speak from experience. For me, I have worked in an outfit that did just that, albeit before I worked there. Illegal, but they did it. The guy believed in it so strongly that he had AFB wax specifically made into comb foundation, to "prove a point".
The experience gave me a number of ideas, that I'm still not sure of the answer to. Firstly, when the wax was melted, from what I could gather, I don't think it went hot enough for long enough, to kill the spores. The theory was to encapsulate them. And the guy believed he was vindicated, when he used the foundation, no AFB showed up, immediately. BUT - when I was working there, every year there would be 2 or 3 cases of AFB appear, from no known source. It was a mystery. I guess I'll never know but I've always wondered if it was that foundation.


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## Solomon Parker

Barry said:


> I'm all for playing it.


I am with Barry. Burning is most likely the best option, but if there were another option where some stuff could be saved, I'd have my ears open. I was out looking at my hives today and I realized that each one of them in their standard form cost me about $175 not counting the value of the bees or the drawn combs. I'm a student, this stuff's not cheap. I have the equipment but not the supplies to do a wax dip. I'd love a gamma irradiator, but I doubt it's within my price range especially for the limited use it would see. One thing I am sure of is that if I did a shaken swarm or some such method, I would be replacing the queen post haste.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Lets also be careful not to talk (like a expert) about things we have not experienced....


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## Roland

Thank you WLC, but I seem to be a little short on Cobalt 60 lately. Any other ideas?

Crazy Roland


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## Oldtimer

heaflaw said:


> Oldtimer,
> 
> What is the reasoning behind not allowing antibiotic treatments in NZ?


It's because antibiotics kill bacteria in the vegetative (active) state, but not spores. Therefore, antibiotics will "cure" an infected hive, ie, symptoms will go away. But stop feeding the drug, and if there are enough spores left in the hive, the disease will flair up again.

So having said that, used correctly by a skillful person, drugs can cure a hive. Badly infected material is removed, and then antibiotics are fed to deal with any "live" infection, and the person doing it has to ensure only a small enough amount of contaminated material is left in the hive, that when feeding of antibiotics stops, there are few enough spores left in the hive that the disease is unlikely to show itself.

The danger in wholesale use of antibiotics though, is that not everybody doing it is sufficiently skilled. A badly infected hive could be fed drugs by an inexperienced operator, masking the symptoms, which will allow for unwitting transfer of infected gear and the end result could be worse than the first.

So the powers that be at the time, decided to not allow symptoms to be masked, and wholesale destruction of anything showing the disease. The policy was in the main effective and eventually cheaper, than the use of drugs. It's worked for us, but it would not have worked if there was widespread disrespect for the law, people DO actually have to regularly inspect, and burn if need be. 

Consideration of your neighbors is also a major piece of the whole. If you are careless about exposing your neighbors to disease, at some future time your bees may be exposed to what they now have, that came from you. Like they say, what goes around, comes around.


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## Barry

What's that suppose to mean, Mike? Be a little less vague.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

not you barry......vagueness protects the innocent and the guilty.
mike


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## WLC

Roland:
AFB is the one case where wax dipping makes sense. 

The gamma irradiation and burning of equipment were the other two methods that I'm aware of that were in the Australian publication.

I can see why someone would rather use alternative methods to any of the above.

I haven't seen any mention of microwaves (or ultrasonics) however.


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## Michael Bush

So is burning hives a treatment?


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## Daniel Wasson

Michael Bush said:


> So is burning hives a treatment?


Nope. It is a cure.


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## honeyshack

i don't think it would be classed as a treatment. Treatments imply doing something to see improvement in health. Hard to improve health when they are charred remains


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## peacekeeperapiaries

Barry said:


> Why didn't some of you who have had AFB do this?


Because the law here says "burn" the hive, if its on a pallet "burn" the pallet and every hive on that pallet. Bees will make more wax and drawn comb, for me there is only one way to deal with AFB before it spreads into an entire yard, burn the infected hives and be done with it. Irradiation is not an option at this point as it is not defined in statute, and I would not know where to find it if it was an option.....when it becomes an option I may research it....but then it becomes a $$$$$$ and time issue.


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## Barry

"Because it's the law", I'd expect someone who is in law enforcement to say that! 
OK, I'll phrase it another way, why is it the law?


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## rrussell6870

I agree. If it does not "prop up", it isn't a treatment... using antibiotics for prevention would be, but destroying an infected colony is comparable to allowing varroa to kill a colony that could not fight them off on its own... the only resistance a colony can develop against afb is hygiene, which is developed by other means and there is no level of hygienic that could be effective enough to reverse an infection of afb, so no need in ever considering contamination to boost resistance development... 

The equipment is the issue with afb, shakes usually work to save the bees (about 60-70%), but the equipment can continue to contaminate other colonies both inside and outside of the apiary (wild and kept alike)... 

We passed legislation in our state that provides a reimbursable sum to recover the losses from burning equipment... this is funded by the states beekeepers as a collective effort to help each other out... 

I would suggest that others follow the example... then there is no need to worry about saving the wax and frames at all... everyone wins, except afb..


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## rrussell6870

Any method that proves less than 90% effective is not technically considered a means of "control", but rather a means of "limiting" a threat. 

As tenacious and infectious as afb is, "control" is warranted. Pests are generally not considered of the same categorical nature due to the fact that they can be overcome at some point by natural order or intervention when the just species is at risk (predation, resistances, pesticides, etc)...


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## Oldtimer

Roland said:


> I seem to be a little short on Cobalt 60 lately. Any other ideas?
> 
> Crazy Roland


Ha Ha! That was funny Roland!


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## rrussell6870

Just curious, does anyone else have a reimbursement program in their state? If not, would you object to one?


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## HONEYDEW

rrussell6870 said:


> Developing bees that do not HAVE to be treated to survive and thrive is the goal...


 And how does one do this without allowing AFB to be present for a few generations, Is it through AI or something...Thanks for the input


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## rrussell6870

Afb lives in all honey bee colonies... inflammation (infection) is the issue. It has been around for as long as we know, and no mellifera strains have developed resistances that are indicated to be in direct response to afb. The simple resistance trait of hygienic behavior (house cleaning), which is present in all healthy strains to some extent is the most effective means of prevention from the bees stand point. 

Some consider afb/efb to be natures "kill switches" that are designed (by nature) to kill off colonies of Mellifera that out stretch their natural boundaries or means as well as those that become too entangled by inbreeding... 

The wax moth, as well as many other natural predators are natures "kill switch" for afb... but with all things in nature, they are only meant to do their job After afb has done its job... 
If it is indeed a natural "kill switch" to keep mellifera within natures intended boundaries, then that would certainly explain a lot... 

But back to your question... there is no need to try to build resistances by means of intentional contamination, because it is there already and has always been... healthy bees on a genetic level combined with zero cross contamination, proper nutrition from varietal forage, and a comb replacement system (just as would happen in the wild), are at very low risk, and usually have a naturally higher level of hygiene... 

Hope this helps.


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## Acebird

> It's because antibiotics kill bacteria in the vegetative (active) state, but not spores. Therefore, antibiotics will "cure" an infected hive, ie, symptoms will go away. But stop feeding the drug, and if there are enough spores left in the hive, the disease will flair up again.


Exactly, that's why you have to sterilize the hive.



> I haven't seen any mention of microwaves (or ultrasonics) however.


Microwave would set the wax and propolis on fire before the wood got hot enough to exterminate the spores.


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## Acebird

> We passed legislation in our state that provides a reimbursable sum to recover the losses from burning equipment... this is funded by the states beekeepers as a collective effort to help each other out...


There is a smart move. Where did you find those politicians?


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## Roland

WLC - I believe I saw a research paper that mentioned the potential use of ultrasonics , but failed to mention what frequency. I have an ultrasonic cleaner and was always curious if it would work.

Acebird - A different frequency of microwave might not have the same effect. If I remember correctly,the home microwave is tuned to excite the water. 

Sol - Remember the comment I made about large capitol investments needed to support treatment free(when you thought I was crazy)? 
Is it starting to make sense now? 

Crazy Roland

P.S. space bar sticks when it is humid. grrrrr....


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## WLC

Roland:

I have (and still do) used ultrasonics in the lab and in the field (I built my own ultrasonic bat detector).

Most ultrasonic equipment works in the 20 or 40 KHz range.

Ultrasonic cleaners are 'chirp' type devices rather than resonant devices.

The cleaners don't have the required power.

Now, if there is such a thing as a resonant frequency for AFB spores (in water of course), then maybe it might work. The main problem would be the power required and the potential risk to the operator.


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## WLC

O.K. Roland:

Here's a reference for a potential ultrasonic technology that can achieve a 99.9% kill rate against bacterial spores.

http://www.ultrangroup.com/Company/Publications/PDF/Bacterial_Spores.pdf

It works in air!


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## Solomon Parker

Roland, I've always been the one to sow caution when people ask about being TF. Somebody said I was a downer last time we had that conversation.

But once things level out, they work well. I have one hive that just celebrated it's eighth birthday last week.

I recommend to every freshman beekeeper to get at least four hives if not more. I know how crushing it can be to lose one's only hive the first winter. I'd love to see beekeepers be able to get a solid start without losing their only hive year after year and if they get AFB, they lose their equipment too.

So it's my position that like Mark mentioned, antibiotics only postpone the inevitable and spread infection, and for the additional fact that they throw off the microbial culture of the hive, should not be used. But disease problems should not be ignored, especially AFB. However effective burning may be, we must continue to investigate new options. Inaction is not acceptable, but standing on the old methods is not always useful either.

Sharing the loss is in everyone's benefit. For reasons like that, I think this country needs to advance a little more in the social direction. If the individual loss were not so great the collective good would be maintained.


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## Acebird

> Acebird - A different frequency of microwave might not have the same effect. If I remember correctly,the home microwave is tuned to excite the water.


I don't believe microwave by itself with kill spores. It would be the heat by exciting the water molecule or oil that kills spores (same for humans). UV will kill algae but I am not sure about the spores. UV might have a problem getting below the surface of the wood.


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## Acebird

> i don't think it would be classed as a treatment. Treatments imply doing something to see improvement in health. Hard to improve health when they are charred remains


It depends on how you want to split hairs. It would be improving the health of the apiary and any hive within reach. My heart says treatment free but logic says sterilize the hive. The discussion is what are the options? At least that is where this thread has gone.


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## honeyshack

Acebird said:


> My heart says treatment free but logic says sterilize the hive. The discussion is what are the options?


Most people, myself included do not have economical access to radiation of hives to sterilize.
logic dictates...burn AFB

My take on this is, new beekeepers who think there are new ways to work through AFB. They were not around when AFB was such a problem for the industry. The beekeepers who advocate burning are the ones who were in the heat of the problem. Lived through it and worked through it. It was the "old timers" so to speak who found the best way to get through the mess is to burn infected colonies to stop the spread of the disease.
At some point, by not burning infected colonies, we will be back where they started. If we do not follow protocols for AFB, we will be right back where the previous generation was, and realize after all the "new age" stuff is tried, that burning is the only viable and economical way to treat AFB. At that point, we will find this new way. We will give it a new name, and the "old timers" will sit there and scratch their heads and say "that's what we used to do"
Why re-invent the wheel? Why not just get over it and realize to stop this deadly outbreak in it's tracts, keep it at bay by just burning the colonies. Why do we need 12 pages of splitting hairs.
On this one point can we not agree...for the sake of the industry, hobbiest and commercial alike?
Fight about how to treat or not to treat varroa or trachea mites. But on such an economical impacted and communicable disease such as AFB...JUST DO IT!


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## WLC

Yeah, burning seems to be the only currently recommended option here in the U.S. .

But, since I'm not a stranger to sterilizing equipment in a variety of ways due to my biology background...

And, I'm not a stranger to working with spore forming bacteria or a variety of other microbes (I instructed a microbiology lab as well)...

Let's assume that some of us might have at least a few thoughts on some future options that don't require the destruction of hives, frames, etc. . You know, your assets.

That non-contact, ultrasonic sterilization technique might have some merit.

Also, there's something reckless, yet appealing, about a hardcore, treatment-free beekeeper successfully developing AFB resistant stock.

I know that there are other possible ways that this can occur, besides just the usual hygienic traits, that can be characterized as 'epigenetic'.

PS- Wouldn't it be great if all you have to do when you spot a frame with foulbrood is point a non-contact ultrasonic unit at the spot without destroying the comb?


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## honeyshack

WLC said:


> PS- Wouldn't it be great if all you have to do when you spot a frame with foulbrood is point a non-contact ultrasonic unit at the spot without destroying the comb?


At what cost? an ultrasonic unit would not be cheap. Can burn alot of frames for that


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## WLC

Tut, tut. Don't forget the rest of the hive, and everything else on the pallet.

We are simply discussing alternatives to burning.


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## Jim 134

Originally Posted by WLC 
PS- Wouldn't it be great if all you have to do when you spot a frame with foulbrood is point a non-contact ultrasonic unit at the spot without destroying the comb?




honeyshack said:


> At what cost? an ultrasonic unit would not be cheap. Can burn alot of frames for that


 HIVE IRRADIATION PROGRAM
This is in MA. 


http://www.honeybeeclub.org/apiary news/2010Fall.pdf 
Look at Pg.2


It as about $14.00 per box a box as 1 Deep with frames (10 frame equipment)



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## whix

There is more than just burning. Look up on the web the "McEvoy Method". 
This article is current and up to date http://www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/shaking.pdf.


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## rrussell6870

We know about shaking. It's been done for a very long time, but with limited results... thus the reason its considered a "management" method instead of a "control" method. Again, its very easy to set up a fund in each state to cover the cost of the equipment losses when colonies must be destroyed... what reasons would one give to not want such a program?

Jim 134,
Where and how is this group proposing to do this irradiation... the concern I would have is if people are not properly trained to handle contaminated equipment are trying to transfer it to a ga facility for irradiation, many would be cross contaminating other colonies without realising it.


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## sqkcrk

rrussell6870 said:


> Just curious, does anyone else have a reimbursement program in their state? If not, would you object to one?


Not in NY. I wouldn't object. But, w/out the money for an Inspection Program I can't imagine reimbursement. Besides, why does the State reimburse someone for their colony getting a disease? Maybe it isn't their fault, but it is their responsibilty. And their responsibility to deal w/ it in a manner so as not to be infectious to other beehives.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Also, there's something reckless, yet appealing, about a hardcore, treatment-free beekeeper successfully developing AFB resistant stock.
> 
> I know that there are other possible ways that this can occur, besides just the usual hygienic traits, that can be characterized as 'epigenetic'.


By what mechanism would that "resistance" be expressed?

I believe that I already mentioned that AFB Resistant strains of bees have been developed. They were highly resistant to AFB. This was done by Dr. Walter Rothenbuller back in the early 1950s. I don't know if anyone else has repeated his study.


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## WLC

I'm referring to other mechanisms like Trans-generational immune priming,
Acquired RNAi immunity by retrotransposition of RNA,
and friendly antibiotic producing microflora.

It's not all straight genetics.


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## sqkcrk

Okay, but can you say that in English, please? I only have an AAS Degree, not a PHD or Masters. The wife is the one w/ the Masters. But she probably doesn't know what those things are either.

Thanks for the translation.

I'm confused. How can a stock be resistant to a disease if it isn't in their genes? Somethings missing here. And it's probably my understanding of something. Hmm.


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## WLC

Randy Oliver does a fair job here:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-7/

It's all part of the reason why treatment free beekeepers can successfully do what they do.


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## honeyshack

Jim 134 said:


> It as about $14.00 per box a box as 1 Deep with frames (10 frame equipment)


Cost might be about 14.00, but what about cost of freight if one is not so lucky to live close? To purchase a box at mann lake is $9.25 to 12.95 unassembled. + frames
...and you get new without risk of disease


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## sqkcrk

Irradiation is probably a good method, but w/ all of the costs on both sides of the cost of the iradiation itself, it is hard for me to imagine very many people actually doing it.

It is good to have and know and discuss alternative ways of dealing w/ AFB, but it all comes down to what people will really do and how responsible they will be about it.

I don't think one can put a super full of honey thru the irradiation machine. But, I guerss you could put an extracted honey super. But I still worry about that honey w/ AFB spores in it, at higher concentrations than other honey.


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## Barry

"without risk of disease"

Just as risky as old comb that's been irradiated. Once bees are put on your new comb or the old, risk is the same, unless of course you have data that shows otherwise?


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## WLC

You mean new foundation, don't you?

Then you could also say the same about wax dipping. That's a means of sterilizing AFB contaminated equipment as well.


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## Roland

WLC - you question the POWER of my ultrasonic cleaner, HA.!! It is a big unit, 12*12*24. 

Beware, I have been know to run a VW diesel on 37 psi a boost, how much power do you need?

Seriously, what would it take to find out the resonant frequency of AFB spores?

Crazy Roland


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## deknow

rrussell6870 said:


> Where and how is this group proposing to do this irradiation... the concern I would have is if people are not properly trained to handle contaminated equipment are trying to transfer it to a ga facility for irradiation, many would be cross contaminating other colonies without realising it.


all of this is done before there is much (if any) flying. i can't speak for how things are handled in other counties...(our county club organizes the program, and i am on the board), but the vast majority of equipment does not come from active afb infections...it is a safety net for those buying used equipment, and those that had a case might run all of their equipment from that yard. all of the equipment must be boxed (in a very specific size box), and once it is all assembled at 2 locations, it is driven by a responsible/knowledgeable beekeeper to the facility.
we have a very low rate of AFB in Mass (our county has about 700 beekeepers, and usually not more than one or two cases a year (all hives are generally inspected)...most beekeepers here have never seen it.

deknow


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## WLC

Roland:

The NCU unit killed bacterial spores at around 500 KHz. So, I bet it's higher than your unit.


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## HONEYDEW

thanks for the earlier reply rrussell6870


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## rrussell6870

sqkcrk said:


> Not in NY. I wouldn't object. But, w/out the money for an Inspection Program I can't imagine reimbursement. Besides, why does the State reimburse someone for their colony getting a disease? Maybe it isn't their fault, but it is their responsibilty. And their responsibility to deal w/ it in a manner so as not to be infectious to other beehives.


We use a a private fund that started as a tiny portion of the state association dues and was soon able to be backed off to only be funded by small optional donations... This fund has a such a large surplus each year that it could be self sufficient for many years if it needed to be...

The purpose is simply to give people an easier option so that burning the infected hives is easier than allowing afb to spread by trying to save them... Even though the cost of burning a hive is minimal considering the threat of greater damages, people tend to try to avoid such losses and can risk an outbreak by doing so (as these threads tend to show). 

So given the option of getting new equipment or a reimbursement, they are a lot more willing to go ahead and follow the law which helps to keep a "control" method in place instead of having a bunch of people harbouring the disease while trying to develop some other solution.

I would be willing to help others work out the details with their associations and ag depts. It is neccessary to have some form of inspection program in place to properly identify that the hives that the fund is reimbursing for are indeed infected... but this can also be self policed by a network of bee keepers throughout each state and the fund can even pay the inspecting bee keeper a small fee for each inspection.

Thanks for the info Deknow. Sounds like you guys have got a pretty good system for contaminant handling. Imagine though if it were not uniform and in a cooperative manner... guys shipping afb frames in the mail and ups, infected boxes and frames stacked in pickup trucks and driven from yard to yard to gather up any suspected equipment, supers extracted before frames and boxes are transported... just a mess waiting to happen imo. But from what you are saying, its more a safeguard to protect against incoming used equipment... THAT IS WONDERFUL! Its exactly what I have been trying to push others to consider in several of these threads... afb lives amongst the bees, its when a colony becomes infected (which Oldtimer described beautifully) that the problem arrises... keeping your apiaries safe from outer contaminants is a key part to being able to keep bees without using treatments... Burning a hive or a pallet with four hives is comparable to washing your hands after handling something questionable and BEFORE you play with your children... much like irradiating all incoming used equipment... its simply the safest practice and the best thing for your apiary. I love the program that you guys have going and would like to see more like it all over... If the reimbursement program and the irradiation of used incoming equipment program were used in combination across the nation, I could foresee a very swift decrease in afb cases in the US, which in turn would lower the need and use of both programs so that they could build a surplus and be there when we need them...


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## sqkcrk

What about false claims? Who verifies the disease?


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## Roland

Thank you WLC, much higher frequency than what I have.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird

> So given the option of getting new equipment or a reimbursement, they are a lot more willing to go ahead and follow the law which helps to keep a "control" method in place instead of having a bunch of people harbouring the disease while trying to develop some other solution.


It would also remove the fear of registering your hives. You can make all the laws you want but that won't guarantee that they get followed. Protecting beeks financially from dishonest inspectors is a huge advantage in my book. You almost don't need inspectors. Just send in a sample to an independent lab. The lab says yea or nae. Then all you need is a witness for the destruction of the hive.

Why wouldn't this work in all states? Payouts would stay low because AFB would be controlled. What is the costs for not doing it?


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## JohnAllen

Acebird said:


> Protecting beeks financially from dishonest inspectors is a huge advantage in my book. ...


I don't understand the part about dishonest inspectors. Would an inspector be soliciting bribes not to tell anyone that they found an AFB hive? I just don't see that happening.

I think the biggest fear of registering hives is the fear that thieves or vandals will find out where they are. I wish our state still had an inspection program and would gladly tell the inspectors where my hives are, would even pay (a little bit) for the service.


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## rrussell6870

You guys in NYS must have had some serious issues. Lol. Corruption is something that we just don't have a problem with... in this case, there would be nothing to gain for someone trying to be corrupt. Since there are no inspectors, a small course would need to be given by the state association for identifying and proper quarantine and safe burning procedures (which imo should be done anyway)... this course should ne offered to all members and members that complete the course each year be kept on a contact list categorized by county by the association secretary... for the first few years, the inspections should be done on a rotation, with bee keepers contacting the association directly to ask for inspections. This way members that have successfully completed the course will be able to be contacted by the association to schedule inspections and there should be at least a few members from each county or some may service a tri-county area if need be. It's a "self-policed" system... each inspection (not find) could be paid for by the fund in a minimal amount (let's just say $25-$35)... burns should be scheduled by the association after the inspection and should be witnessed by the next member in the rotation (burns do not have to be witnessed in their entity, just the initial ignition to the point where the equipment could not be salvaged if extinguished)... once an inspection shows cause to burn, and the burn is completed, the association can process the reimbursable amount for the equipment from the fund (again a minimal amount so that there is no gain or loss)... this program will accomplish two things, 1. Successfully address the threat of afb spread. And 2. Inform and bring beekeepers together within the communities across the state. It's a win/win situation and it has a proven track record.


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## Acebird

> Lol. Corruption is something that we just don't have a problem with... in this case,


Oh please, when ever there is personal gain involved there is corruption. To say there isn't would be naive. There always needs to be a system of checks and balances.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> Protecting beeks financially from dishonest inspectors is a huge advantage in my book. You almost don't need inspectors. Just send in a


Wow! Never seen one of those. It would seem to me that ours are almost "Pure as the driven snow"! Are you saying that NYS had a corruption problem with it's inspectors?


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## Acebird

> Are you saying that NYS had a corruption problem with it's inspectors?


Now I didn't say that. If you were reading the posts you would know that we don't have inspectors.


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## AR Beekeeper

When I look at the cost versus benefits of an inspection service and compare it to money spent for an educational program for beekeepers, I would go with the educational program. Here in Arkansas we have 2 inspectors, several part time inspectors and two supervisors in the Apiary Section. Their figures for the last 3 years says they found a total of 12 cases of AFB each year. The answer to beekeepers and AFB problems is beekeepers that are educated in disease identification and control. Inspectors look at a beekeepers colonies once a year, the beekeeper looks at them several times a month.


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## Acebird

> I think the biggest fear of registering hives is the fear that thieves or vandals will find out where they are.


John, I meant to ask you why you think registration gives a thief or vandal information on hive locations. It is not like hives are camouflage and big operations would be impossible to keep hidden registered or not.
Our first hive got tipped over from vandals right in our back yard. We had to move the hive inside of a chain link fence and within view. Moving the hive was a learning experience in itself.


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## hpm08161947

Notice I used the word "had"... thinking that you were possibly suggesting that might be a reason they got rid of them.


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## rrussell6870

Acebird, we aren't talking about political donations and plutonium trading here... I think the people of NYS as well as any other state are decent enough to handle this small program with decency at the very least. 

In the past, I would have said "clearly you haven't spent much time in the south", but honestly, I have seen a higher level of character coming from within the industry recently than I had in the past few decades. It appears that we will soon see another turn around as a new era of beekeepers take their places and carry on the traditions of honesty, integrity, honor, care and concern that were nearly lost.

People are basically good. Desperation fuels crime and excess fuels corruption, but those within a balance are for the most part good and decent. There is nothing to gain for the corrupt in a program such as this... it is simple and gives bee keepers a chance to work together, learn from one another, and halts the urge for competition at least for the moment... which is always helpful in building better relationships.


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## rrussell6870

Does anyone have a few figures from NYS that we could use as an example? Most useful would be the total number of members in the state association and total number of annual cases of confirmed afb infections (when last recorded, or an average within a five year period if such information can be found).

We can use NYS as a model for our discussion since they do not currently have an inspection program.

Again, as AR pointed out, there will be a minimal number of actual cases of infection... the key is the education that is provided by simply developing the program...


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> Oh please, when ever there is personal gain involved there is corruption. To say there isn't would be naive.



I only know one Ex- NYS Bee Inspector.... and "personal gain" nor "corruption" are words that come anywhere close when I think of him... as a matter of fact quite the opposite.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Protecting beeks financially from dishonest inspectors is a huge advantage in my book. You almost don't need inspectors. Just send in a sample to an independent lab. The lab says yea or nae. Then all you need is a witness for the destruction of the hive.


Well, Acebird, there are Inspectors and there are Inspectors. Dishonesty can exist in any group. I worked as an Apiary Inspector for 20 years, 1986 to 2006. All during that time, every case of AFB was sampled and lab verified by the Bee Lab in Beltsville. All of the Field Diagnosies were 99% accuarate. Lab confirmation was done to show that what the Inspectors knew was true and not a matter of an Inspector wanting to put someone out of business or to "take out" the competition.

So, in NY, "The lab says yea or nae.", has always been the way.

"You almost don't need inspectors."? I disagree. You would need someone, not related to the beekeeper, to verify the disease and the destruction.

Burning the diseased colony and equipment under supervision of an Apiary Inspector was done to insure the burning was done and done correctly so that other neighboring cols wouldn't be exposed to the diseased material.

A witness? Not just any witness will do. imo


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## sqkcrk

hpm08161947 said:


> I only know one Ex- NYS Bee Inspector.... and "personal gain" nor "corruption" are words that come anywhere close when I think of him... as a matter of fact quite the opposite.


I know who you are writing about and if enuf money were offered.....

Heh,heh. lol

My personal gain was a job I enjoyed for most of the time. Seeing parts of NY that I never would have otherwise. The first year I worked I inspected Long Island, Chattaqua Co., Niagar, Monroe and Orleans Counties, St. Lawrence, Franklin, and a number of others. "Have Smoker/Will Travel". That was me.

Of course, it required that, during the season, I had to spend as much as 3 months away from home. The pay and the insurance (during the employed part of the year) were the benefits.

Oh, yeah, I forgot the distrust and disdain of many of the bkprs of the State of NY. And bkprs out do elephants when it comes to memory.


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## Daniel Wasson

"Just send in a sample to an independent lab. The lab says yea or nae. Then all you need is a witness for the destruction of the hive."


What happens in the time it takes to get the verification testing done. By the time several weeks have passed for test results to verify what to an experienced person is obvious, how many colonies are potentially impacted? Reason and responsibilty are the only considerations needed with this issue.


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## Michael Bush

>I don't understand the part about dishonest inspectors. Would an inspector be soliciting bribes not to tell anyone that they found an AFB hive? I just don't see that happening.

The only accusations I've heard in the past (and not in NY) was inspectors burning healthy hives by claiming they were AFB or AHB without any notification or chance to appeal. I think the corruption issue is if they are a large operator or in cahoots with a large operator they could take out the competition or open up a territory that was currently occupied by someone else.


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## waynesgarden

Rrussell, I lived almost all of my life in NY State, and had inspections of my hives in the past. The inspectors that visited my hives back in the 70's and 80's gave not the slightest hint of corruption. Now I am in Maine and our state inspector here is very well-respected. 

Acebird, if you have evidence of corruption, you would be doing the bee community a big favor by coming forward with it. If not, as I suspect, please just admit that you are making unfounded speculations, not based on any factual knowledge. 

It is too bad NY has had to stop its inspection program.

Wayne


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## WLC

I can understand why no one is clamouring for the return of 'beehive inspectors' to NYS.

Besides the, 'oh great, yet another way to pay a fine!' refrain, maybe they simply weren't cost effective.

The state paid for the inspectors, but they couldn't make enough of a difference to justify the costs of the program. Hives were lost anyway.

With the current budget issues, I don't think that anyone is even thinking of funding new state inspectors of any kind.


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## sqkcrk

A total misconception of reality. That had nothing to do w/ why there are no full time full season Inspectors in NY.


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## hpm08161947

Here when guys leave the Blue Berries and head to Maine for more BBs, they seem to think they have to have a state health inspection in order to get into Maine. So the Inspector and his crew come out and do it... big job! When the blue berrie farmers want hive assessments (sorta like frame counts) the inspector and his crew come out and do it.

Just wondering how bees leave the state (NY) without health certificates or if Orchard owners never ask for assessments.


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## WLC

According to who? I thought that PLB made the above point very clearly. He was an inspector as well, and even claims to have had some part in the demise of the program.

So sqkcrk, beekeepers can choose which hives to show the inspector in NYS, correct? Why would they show an inspector anything but their best hives? Why should they invite fines or destruction of their hives?

Reality check.

Unless you have a magic wand that can cure the now pesticide resistant pests and pathogens that abound (let's not forget CCD), what benefit does an inspector provide to NYS beekeepers? Free advice?

The only apiary inspectors that are indispensable, are the ones that do the paperwork for the interstate transport of hives. But, have they really made a difference? Hmmm?

The pests and pathogens that they test for are now firmly entrenched in the environment itself. Not just Honeybees. Go and 'fine' a native pollinator or something.


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## sqkcrk

I never have leftr w/out a Healtrh Certificate. Then again I did get one after I got back from SC, one fall. But the Inspection was done before I left. I guess since it is in the Law, Interstate Transpoort Cols get checked.

I have never heard of NY apple growers asking for assessments.

Ya kn ow, if someone had offered me BBQ I may have been tempted.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> According to who? I thought that PLB made the above point very clearly. He was an inspector as well, and even claims to have had some part in the demise of the program.
> 
> So sqkcrk, beekeepers can choose which hives to show the inspector in NYS, correct? Why would they show an inspector anything but their best hives? Why should they invite fines or destruction of their hives?
> 
> Reality check.
> 
> Unless you have a magic wand that can cure the now pesticide resistant pests and pathogens that abound (let's not forget CCD), what benefit does an inspector provide to NYS beekeepers? Free advice?
> 
> The only apiary inspectors that are indispensable, are the ones that do the paperwork for the interstate transport of hives. But, have they really made a difference? Hmmm?
> 
> The pests and pathogens that they test for are now firmly entrenched in the environment itself. Not just Honeybees. Go and 'fine' a native pollinator or something.


PLB made what point where? Who is PLB?

When an Apiary Inspector comes around to do Interstater Inspection they have a list of a bkprs apiaries and would prefer to inspect 10% of the cols going out of state by going to a number of apiaries and inspecting a percentage of each yard. I find that totally a waste of time and resources. So, I insist that they inspect all of the cols in a cpl of yards to total the 10% of transport. I know from experience that if one inspects only a percentage of the cols in a yd, you have a high probability of missing what disease there might be there.

No fines have ever been taken in the history of Apiarey Inspection in NY. Even tho I know that some bkprs have "Hospital Yards", I am not one of them. And if there is any AFB in any of my cols, I'd rather have it found before I go to SC. I look on Apiary Inspection as a Service. One I used to provide.

"what benefit does an inspector provide"? That's the reason it went away, or has been curtailed. What the bkprs of NYS wanted from the Inspectors they were not mandated by Law to provide.

"Have they really made a difference?" Well, Paul Cappy would say Yes and show yopu the statistics of what was found in 2000 after about 5 years of only Comm. Interstate Inspection. Ask him, he'll tell ya. I question his interpretation of the data.

Native pollinators suffer from the same pests and pathogens as our managed honeybees? Which ones? Bumbles get nosema cerana? Or AFB? Or varroa mites? I wasn't aware of that.

As far as fining a Native Pollinator goes. That seems like a fatalistic arguement. Shouldn't we deal as well as we can w/ those who we can deal w/?


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## WLC

Unfortunately, hive loses in the US have averaged over 30% for a number of years.

That's an abysmal loss rate, and this is despite the apiary inspector programs across the US.

In short, I don't think that inspectors can impact a loss rate which is out of their control.

As for AFB, I think that most beekeepers are aware of what needs to be done.


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## sqkcrk

This is the popint I have made numerous points in Public Forums, even w/ the State Apiculturalist there, that Varroa and related disorders have killed more cols in the past 20 years than AFB ever has (which is probably an exaggeration) and what impact has Apiary Inspection had on that? Well, there are limitations to all systems.

I also do believe that claims of AFB reduction by Inspection alone are short sighted. But, it is at least a two pronged tool of educated bkprs and Inspection. Inspection needs to be something diffewrent in NY, if it is ever to be any more than Interstate Paperwork Providing. Which they can do from Albany and save the mileage cost.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> As for AFB, I think that most beekeepers are aware of what needs to be done.


That I would like to see an actual study of. Because most of the people w/ cases of AFB that I found didn't know they had it, didn't know how to identify it and didn't know what to do about it. Commercial bkprs being the exception.

I tried to remedy that, in part, by going to a cpl clubs in my designated district and giving a talk and demonstration which I started out by saying, "Hi. My name is Mark and I have American Foul Brood." The idea being to get over the stigma and let's learn how to id the stuff and get rid of it before the Inspector comes along.


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## Acebird

> That I would like to see an actual study of. Because most of the people w/ cases of AFB that I found didn't know they had it, didn't know how to identify it and didn't know what to do about it. Commercial bkprs being the exception.


Bee keeping has become popular now so the number of people getting into to it that don't know what they are doing is increasing. So as long as someone has the power to destroy your hive for something that you are not aware of there will be suspicion. It is human nature. All governments are corrupt in some fashion and that is why nobody trust them.

Having a program where the beek is in a way insured will IMO remove the distrust. That is all I am saying and there is no need to put words in my mouth. Having a program that just pushes paper around is just bureaucracy. Accomplishes nothing.


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## sqkcrk

It has always been popular and what we are seeing is just another wave in the on going ocean of beekeeping history.

"power to destroy". I appreciate that some see it that way and I know I split hairs all the time, but, Inspection is not quite as heavy handed as that. If the bkpr disaghrees w/ the Field Diagnosis of the Inspector, in NY anyway, the are procedures and time to protest the findings of the Inspector and if proven incorrect, no further steps are taken to make sure thhat tghe bkpr does burn their equipment. Which is what happened. Apiary Inspectors did not confiscate and destroy thew equipment. It was up to the bkpr to do so, w/ the Inspector present.

NYS Apiary Inspectors have far less power than State Troopers. When you see them, do you think of them as corrupt and untrustworthy?

I, having been an Apiary Inspector, know that I did far more than push paper around. Paper work was less than 20% of my weekly work. The paperwork is necassary to document the work done. Trusting thhat just because one says they did something is not good enuf for The State.


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## WLC

Here's an article showing that Nosema ceranae was detected in native Bumble bees.

http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/CAPArticle11.html

I don't think that I need to demonstrate that AFB spores can survive for decades.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> I don't think that I need to demonstrate that AFB spores can survive for decades.


Someone questioned that?

If PLB is who I think he is, I could claim the same. That I helped bring the program to where it is. I have always, since 1986, thought that it should be as much about extension as disease control.


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## WLC

Uh...

I thought that you were 'unaware' as to how AFB (and Nosema c.) could be transmitted by native pollinators.

You are now aware of the Nosema c. and native pollinator connection thanks to the above link.

We could also state that native pollinators (and others) can 'rob' stores/honey from AFB infected hives, therefore serving as reservoirs/vectors for AFB.

So, why weren't you aware of the above?


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## Acebird

http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/spivak466.pdf

Came across this one.
Read Breading for Resistance.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Uh...
> 
> I thought that you were 'unaware' as to how AFB (and Nosema c.) could be transmitted by native pollinators.
> 
> You are now aware of the Nosema c. and native pollinator connection thanks to the above link.
> 
> We could also state that native pollinators (and others) can 'rob' stores/honey from AFB infected hives, therefore serving as reservoirs/vectors for AFB.
> 
> So, why weren't you aware of the above?


By Native Pollinators do you mean Bumblebees, Hilicted bees and other non-apis species of Bees? Or do you mean what are refered to as Ferals? Because I have no knowledge what so ever that anything other than Honeybees (Apis mellifera) can and do spread AFB. I have never heard of AFB in a Bumblebee nest.

As far as Nosema, I am not aware of it being found in non-apis bees, but I wouldn't be surprised.


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## WLC

Here's a link to a microflora study showing how 'friendly microbes' can inhibit AFB.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1472-6785-6-4.pdf

While you need an average of about 8 AFB spores to infect each larva, each infected larva can create billions of new spores. I don't think that it's a stretch to imagine how easily pollinators can spread these AFB spores around, literally flower to flower.


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## sqkcrk

Hmm. Flower to flower transfer of AFB was never on any list that I recall learning about in classes on Diseases of honeybees. Any documentation on that idea? Or pure speculation? 

Nothing wrong w/ stretching ones imagination, but there are plently of documented and studied ways of disease and pest transfer already known and of high enuf impact and probability of occurance that something so obscure as honeybees picking up AFB spores from flowers and then infecting a colony is, in my mind, way out there. But, who knows? There certainly is enuf evidence of geberal pesticide pollution of the environment.


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## WLC

Hey, pollinators spread RNA viruses via pollen. It's that danged electrostatic charge that'll make pollen, or spores, wanna just 'jump up' at a pollinator visiting a flower.


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## Acebird

> We could also state that native pollinators (and others) can 'rob' stores/honey from AFB infected hives, therefore serving as reservoirs/vectors for AFB.


I am sure that you know that spores are so small and light that they can be air borne. the common carrier is dust.
I am intrigued by the link to the article I linked to because if the bees remove infected larvae with AFB the spores will still be around unless the bacteria die before they can generate spores from the dead carcasses.


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## Oldtimer

The idea is for the bees to remove the dead larvae before the vegetative bacteria sporulate. If they will do that consistantly the hive should resist the disease.


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## WLC

That's kind of like saying, "remove the signs of AFB before there are any signs of AFB."

Yes, hygienic behavior can do that.


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## Oldtimer

Well that could be said and in a way it's true, but there's a bit more to it than that.

Strangely enough, AFB is spread within the hive primarily by the more resilient spores, than the vegetative stage.

What exactly happens, is that a larva is given some AFB spores with it's food. The spores go into the vegetative stage, multiply, and when the larva uncurls and lies out flat to pupate, penetrate the gut wall, killing the larva. They then spend the nexy day or so spreading through the whole larva digesting it and turning it into a brown sticky mass, after which they sporulate. Bees trying to clean the sticky mass are contaminated by it, as the larva cannot be removed in one piece, it is sticky snot like stuff that sticks onto everything and spreads around the hive.

The point being, very hygienic bees that remove the dead larva quickly, BEFORE it has turned into a sticky gob, can get it out in one piece and ejected from the hive. Therefore infected material is removed from the hive and infection is not spread.


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## Broke-T

There is no indemnity program in MS for AFB losses.

Johnny


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## fish_stix

rrussell; in FL the beekeeper is compensated at the rate of 50% of the value of the burned components, not to exceed $30.00 hive (only for burned AFB hives). No compensation for other diseases. Real up-to-date pricing, Huh?


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## Solomon Parker

I got $30 in per box easy. I remember the days when a package was $30.


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## sqkcrk

Remember when honey was .15/lb? Me neither, but I know guys who do.

Those prices must have been set back in the 70s or 80s, back when a can of honey sold for $30.00 or .50/lb. A hive was worth a can of honey. Or, in todays' terms, a bucket, 60 lbs of honey.


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