# Resistant bees, productive or not



## sqkcrk

This is the same thing that happened back in the 1950s when Walter Rothenbuler, then of Iowa and later Ohio, developed a strain of bees that was as totally resistant to AFB as it could be. They didn't produce much honey.

What we need is a strain in the middle, I guess.

Is it possible to start w/ the varroa resistant stock and develope it into a more productive strain?


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## hpm08161947

Ted Kretschmann said:


> I post this thread because I had developed a bee that was varroa mite resistant.


Ted... How was your bee able to resist the varroa mite. Did it pick it off itself or others? Or was it just not attractive to the mite... some how. Just curious... 

Herb


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## StevenG

Ted, my best producing hive last year was a B. Weaver strain, and it produced 60 pounds of surplus. It had swarmed, and wasn't a very good season. My total production from 16 colonies was only 500 pounds. I've been expanding colony numbers, and not as concerned as I should be for honey production. Weavers say their bee is a good producer. I certainly hope to find out this year. 

Sounds like we're talking about the Holy Grail of beekeeping: A bee not needing any kind of treatment for mites, vast honey production, and (shall we throw in) gentle enough to be worked in a t-shirt (veil optional)? 
Regards,
Steven


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## WI-beek

AHB is varroa resistant and produces huge crops from what I hear/read so it must be possible to have the best of both worlds unless that means mean bees.

Maybe it is just that we have not found the right resistant trait yet. If we could get bees that would actually pick off the mites and chew off their legs we would not need genetics that waste brood, and keep small winter clusters, breaks in brood cycles, etc. I actually find it strange that the bees tolerate the presence of varroa on their sisters. You would think they would be persistent in harassing and chewing on them. It must be that once the pest is on the bee they dont see it as a threat. They keep a constant guard on shb so why not varroa?


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## Ted Kretschmann

According to Dr. Danka of Baton Rouge. The bees that we bred were SMR type bees. They have something in their saliva that retards the Varoaa mites growth. So when the adult bees feed their larvae. The substance gets into the brood food and makes the larvae unattactive. This is a recessive gene. We acheived it by a closed population of fifty colonies over seven years. Hives that did not die in the winter were split in the spring to replace the loses. They were allowed to raise their own queens and back breed in among themselves. While we bred a resistant bee, it was worthless for honey production. The crops were too small and the colonies were too small in numbers. So there is a trade off. You sacrifice something to get something. In this case, resistance for honey production. The very best of the colonies we had went south donated to Baton Rouge. They were used along with other Beekeepers bees to develope some of the resistant lines that are in use today and soon will be in use at a later date. So we go full circle- a resistant bee or one that produces good crop that need some treatment?? TK


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## Ted Kretschmann

Wi, I know that there have been studies on this...The researchers did mite count drops. They looked at the mites. Many of the mites HAD BITE marks on their shells. So our EHBs do try to pick them off. It is a dangerous place for a hitch hiking mite on the back of a bee. It is much safer to stay in the capped brood cells. TK


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## rrussell6870

Ted, you are hitting the nail directly on the head! There are 3 different ways to develop resistances in your stock... 

1. Let everything die and breed from whatever makes it... losing nearly everything and running a life-long risk of inbreeding...

2. Cross breed with a strain (ie.. russians) that are far from acclimated to your environment and if you make it past the first 5 gens of angry bees, you then have to face the late buildup and tiny clusters that kill production in most of the US...

3. Take care of the stock that you have, continuing the countless generations that have been selectively bred for production in your climate, and wait for the bees to build their resistances...

They are already doing it... if they were not, there would be NONE left in those operations chose option #1 above. 

I keep hearing people talking about 50-70 lbs per hive... They must have no idea what the average was like before mites... I have been concerned that a mixture of poor breeding practices, and an over use of "breeder" queens from too few suppliers may have a lot to do with the drop in average production across the board.... But then I started to consider a different issue... As the years progress, every strain of bee is building more and more resistant to varroa... that means that each strain of bees is developing VSH traits and possibly higher swarming tendencies... this could very well be a big part of the average production rates decrease...

Now on to the issue with VSH... As I have said before, "Too much is Too much"... a 100% VSH colony is not nearly as productive as a good old italian or even the AMM... 

Russians are so resistant for several reasons... the most obvious is VSH behavior, the second is multiple swarms per season... breaking the brood cycle often, and then in winter for a prolonged period of time...

VSH is a very useful trait... but it has to be balanced within the population of the colony... VSH is a recessive trait, so both the queen and the drone must carry it for the worker to express it... each VSH drone that a VSH queen mates with will produce a certain percentage of VSH workers within the colony... Too many, and you lose production... Too few, and you lose resistance... Now for this to be controlled within a major operation is very hard... 

Thoughts?


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## rrussell6870

Ted Kretschmann said:


> It is a dangerous place for a hitch hiking mite on the back of a bee. It is much safer to stay in the capped brood cells. TK


Exactly... That is where the heart of the issue lies... 

I know of a few studies that are going on to test the theory of causing sterility and other issues within the mites themselves... may be a winner, may be another disaster waiting to happen... who knows... It may end up causing varroa to mutate enough to start living on humans. lol. 

I think that varroa are soon to be a pest of the past, and production and SHB will be the next big hurdles...


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## Ted Kretschmann

Robert, I had hoped you would chime on in. I finally chose method number three, many years ago on the advice of Dr.Shimanukii. Keep treating until the bees as a general population caught up with the problem. The problem is by doing that with a commercial operation. You reproduce the bees using their own genetics aka splitting and letting them raise queens. You eventually have to bring in new blood periodically to reduce the chances of inbreeding. If you do not then you end up with my closed population experiment BUT on a GRAND scale--a whole outfit of non productive bees. Before mites we had, correct me Russell if I am wrong, 850 matriachal lines that breeders could breed from. Now, I have been told it is something along the line of 39. The mites wiped out vast pools of genetic material. So with that in mind, it has been a little over two years since I brought in several hundred Aussie queens. Those bees were two years out from Europe. Thus it is time for some more new genetics to sprinkle around the outfit. So Robert, I have no Mississippi genetics, that is one of the 39 remaining american lineages that I have no genetics from. So you know what that means.--WHEN CAN I PLACE AN ORDER<<< TK


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## rrussell6870

You have the right idea... Thats why it has been so important to teach people to NOT use the "let em all die and breed from the few that remain" method... all this does is wipe out lineages that we cant get back... sure they may not have progressed in resistances as quickly as the others, but they were light years ahead of the resistant lines in production and gentleness. 

I work terribly hard to bring in new lineages from outside of the US each season... but its a heck of a process... we quarantine them for years, and study, study, study, before we ever expose them to the mainland... this is a cycle that has to be fed each year, otherwise you end up with a few years of an empty island and a ton of money wasted...

NZ has got some great production lines and seriously gentle stock... 

As a nation, we have to "reboot" so to speak... lots of folks have great bees... but just how long will it stay that way... 

I will say that one method for keeping the lines more productive is to select your worst 10% of colonies from each yard each season, and requeen with outside stock... One supplier each year, but rotate the out each year... this will add more lines back to your operation and limit expenses stop this process after 6 years... wait 6 years, then repeat this process again... this will cut the costs, keep your own lines going and keep a diverse enough mix that you wont get stuck back-breeding.

PS, Dont worry about ordering, I already have you down for some SunKists, English Buckfasts, and some of Bill's old Mountain Grey Caucasians...


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## JBJ

TK how good was the honey production in the foundation stock you developed your resistant line from?

The degree of physical genetic linkage between traits for honey production and mite tolerance should be possible to determine. With the honeybee genome now sequenced this would be an interesting study. I would bet the traits are not as tightly linked as some suggest.

Did you find it possible to select for production amongst your most tolerant lines?


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## sevenmmm

Fascinating.

I have ordered Russians from 2 sources and Carniolans to mix. If I worked these together, assuming the mix works, at what point would this be considered a new strain?


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## sqkcrk

JBJ said:


> I would bet the traits are not as tightly linked as some suggest.


If, the heritable trait of house cleaning ability is linked to honey production, as it seems it is, from what little I know of Rothenbulers study, wouldn't it make some sense to think the same may be so for mite resistance? If that mite resistance is expressed thru the bees grooming the mites off of fellow bees?

Is the bees getting rid of mites manually, or should I say orally, what constitutes resistance?

How is resistance expressed?

Tolerance is another question.


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## Ted Kretschmann

JBJ, The production was half of what would be considered normal for this part of Alabama. 70 pounds of surplus per hive is considered normal for Alabama--AM--After mites...So the resistant bees were only producing 35 pounds of surplus honey per hive. Thus we discontinued the experiment and turned over the best of the stock to the USDA. As it did have merit due to its resistance. TK


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## JBJ

The genetic architecture of foraging behavior and resistance/tolerance is quite complex and involves multiple traits on multiple chromosomes. The degree of genetic linkage between traits is a physical measurement. Given that my observations do not match TK's it would be very useful to the discussion to know these measurements. 

Complex social behaviors can manifest themselves to varying degrees at the colony level depending on the exact mix of genetic fathers. For example, for a HYG or VSH trait to be expressed at the whole colony level, how many of the drones that the queen mated with have to carry this trait (10% 30% 50%)? 

http://www.hgsc.bcm.tmc.edu/project-species-i-Apis mellifera.hgsc?pageLocation=Apis mellifera

http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/141/4/1537.pdf

If productivity and resistance were truly tightly linked and inversely correlated one could simply select non-productive lines and produce bees that would show resistance, to the best of my knowledge this has yet been done. The right mix of genes in a specific cross should be able to provide expression of resistance traits and productive traits at the whole colony level.

Is there a geneticist in the house? How many centimorgans apart are these traits and on which chromosomes? Looks like the honeybee genome is downloadable (first link).

Would love to continue this conversation later, but now it is time to graft.


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## josethayil

The honey bee genome has been sequenced, but the genes for honey production, gentleness, varroa resistance ETC have not been pin pointed.

We know that they exist, but we dont know which ones are they. That is why we cannot progress in the field very fast. 

If we knew which ones were they, we could have crossed bees which have genes for high honey production and gentleness with bees with good varroa resistance and look at the offsprings and see if they are present in the offsprings. 

People are working on it at the moment, so hopfully in the near future we will know which genes represent which traits.


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## BeeLee

Just as an FYI, Marla Spivak tested the honey production, Varroa levels, chalkbrood and AFB levels of her MN hygienic line against a non-selected line. The produced significantly more honey, and had lower levels of Varroa and disease. The PDF is online:
http://www.apidologie.org/index.php...8/Apidologie_0044-8435_1998_29_3_ART0008.html 

JBJ, the queen needs to mate with at least 50% hygienic drones for the colony to be hygienic. 

Katie


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## max2

Just listening in here - we have no Varroa in Australia at this point. We have SHB and I'm constantly trying to pick up points to transfer a little of your vast knowledge - fascinating stuff.
Last year I averaged above 150 kg per hive, this year with the floods and all the wet maybe 1/2. With SHB I can loose a top performing hive in a very short time.Definitely interested to learn how the genetics can help. Keep talking!!


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## rrussell6870

The lowered productivity is not due to the genes so much as the mechanics of the vsh colony. As I have pointed out a few times before. The number of workers within a vsh colony depends wholly on the number of vsh drones that the vsh queens have mated with... to maintain productivity while implementing the vsh trait, there must be a balance of vsh / non-vsh traits. Colonies that express vsh traits in too many workers will have poorer productivity. Colonies that have too few vsh workers will have poorer resistance. 

This is a complex issue for commercial producers and needs to be addressed especially as national production averages are suffering such a great decline.

Most honey production operations do not have the facilities to maintain such levels of balance within their colonies. It's a great topic and I believe many people could benefit greatly from the discussion.


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## WI-beek

rrussell6870?

"to maintain productivity while implementing the vsh trait, there must be a balance of vsh / non-vsh traits. Colonies that express vsh traits in too many workers will have poorer productivity. Colonies that have too few vsh workers will have poorer resistance." 

Robert if you would please comment on my assumptions from my reading.

Pure VSH will waste too much time and resources going overboard aborting brood but may be able to live with mites with no treatment. 

MN HYG is not as aggressive with aborting infected brood and can be more productive (honey), will slow down mite population growth but will eventually need some mite treatment. 

A perfect balance of VSH and lets say normal genetics would get you a perfect bee but is next to imposable for someone without the proper skills, knowledge, tools, ect to maintain and a stable line is presently not available. If one wanted to have this perfect strain they would need to more or less keep buying queens from someone who open mates vsh breeder offspring.

Lots of big assumptions there but that is what I have taken in and come to assume more or less. How accurate am I, if at all?

Thanks


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## rrussell6870

Someone has been taking notes!  You nailed it. All strains are developing resistances at their own paces and according to their own circumstances... as the vsh trait becomes more established within the strain, the effects become more substantial... thus as time progresses the strain Minn Hygienic (hygienic Italians) will progress in vsh effectiveness... 

There are a few methods that producers can incorporate to keep some level of balance within their operations each season, but I will say that due to the continuous development of resistances, more honey operations will soon be delving into breeding at some level in order to offset the costs and maintain higher production levels. 

This is one great reason for testing... using selection techniques will help the honey producers keep up with the progression of their own stocks and allow them to know where, when, and how many vsh colonies to add to their yards when making splits.


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## WI-beek

So you believe that one day the proper level of VSH will stick to a strain and not be a recessive trait? One day a stable strain could exist without the teeter toter of adding and diluting the vsh trait? 

Do you think we we may find a better varroa resistant trait like aggressive grooming and chewing mites legs off or something or do you think that would have popped up by know if the trait was somewhere in the genetic pool? How about new traits like rare mutations. Are these things that take hundreds of years to happen or faster? Just wondering what your hopes or guesses may be or even knowledge may hold in the matter. It seems that varroa can adapt/evolve in a matter of a year or two.


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## WI-beek

Also in the millions of years apis millifera (or its ansestors) has been around it must have struggled with something like varroa or varroa itself in the past. Is it not likely that the genes needed are just locked at the moment and need a trigger or something to go off to work again?


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## rrussell6870

The forms of resistances that strains all seem to be moving towards are vsh and excessive swarming. As the stresses of mites continue to progress the development of resistances, each strain will need to consistently be selected for production and lowered swarming. It will certainly be an uphill climb. While the bees are getting better at resisting mites, they will also be less productive in the honey industry. Honey producers will need to continue to try new methods of manipulations to get better crops, while breeders will need to maintain a strong focus on selecting for production. I believe that there not be a "perfect balance" that is derived naturally by the bees, because to them, the mites are the only obstacle... after all honey production is all about surplus, and the bees do not need to produce such high amounts, but they DO need to address the stresses that mites cause them. 

So basically everyone needs to keep testing and recording what they find... then communicate those findings as best they can. This will help the industry to evolve as the bees do and keep us from going too far or doing too little.


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## rrussell6870

WI-beek said:


> Also in the millions of years apis millifera (or its ansestors) has been around it must have struggled with something like varroa or varroa itself in the past. Is it not likely that the genes needed are just locked at the moment and need a trigger or something to go off to work again?


This is extremely likely and is supported by the fact that strains from so many regions are addressing the stresses of varroa by developing the same resistances. The issue with this is that our industry will suffer as the mechanics of colonies stop allowing our usual methods of surplus production to be as effective. Thus the methods will need to be addressed (ie... our usual swarm control methods and timing will become less effective, timing for catching flows will become less effective, etc...) Compare your colonies of today to early stage Primorsky colonies, only without the effect of the frigid environment of that region... in what ways would you need to alter your practices to maintain consistent brood levels and surplus production? Vsh workers seem to remain in "house bee" status longer than none vsh... this means foraging comes later, slowing build up and thus production... does that make sense?


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## WI-beek

Yeah, its a lame situation no matter how you look at it. I personally hope there will one day better solutions in treatment as well. So far treatments seems to be band-aids that work for a bit but soon lose effectiveness, have too harsh of side affects, ect. But these two new ones, mite away quick strips ( I think thats the right name), and the hops treatments sure sound like something has changed in our favor. If we can find a treatment that does not have significant side affects, can be used on a flow, and varroa cant evolve resistance, they we may finally start winning the battle. Hope is better than nothing.

Thanks for responses Robert. I always enjoy reading and learning from your posts, especially when I fell your opinions are back by sound science much of the time.


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## rrussell6870

Your very welcome, and thanks for the kind words. I agree fully about the availability of treatments. It is a tough situation all the way around and unfortunately, creating a treatment to kill an insect off of another insect is like trying to make a hair dye that only effects the grey hairs without touching the rest. The bees will get around varroa in time... but in the process, as they change, so must some of our practices. But just like you said, hope is better than nothing.


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## StevenG

Robert, you made the comment that VSH house bees remain house bees longer than non-VSH house bees, thus the lowered honey production. Would a program of reduced drone population, coupled with a larger overall population of bees, help compensation for this? Or would the larger space (more brood boxes) enabling a larger bee population simply mean more space needing more house bees? sigh... did I just answer my own question? :doh:
Or would the combinations of lower drone population, young vigorous queen, more house space (both brood space and honey storage [supers] to contain booming population and lessen swarm pressure) provide more foragers?
Regards,
Steven


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## rrussell6870

:lpf::lpf: Yep! You answered that perfectly! lol. We use 2-3 deeps with 1 or more mediums or shallows on top... Our Sunkist lay 2 deeps and 1/3rd of the 3rd box (whether shallow, medium, or deep)... anything above that is surplus, as she will stop laying in the third box during the summer heat so they can use it to build up winter stores. 

Now take the above scenario and think of it after adding the VSH trait... The more VSH drones that the VSH queen has mated with, the more VSH workers will be present in the population... keep that in mind...

The issue is not the population of foragers during the later months, but rather the population of foragers during the early flows and most importantly, the timing of brood rearing... the more "picky" the queens get about when they cut back their laying, the more complex the issue becomes... Just as they are building up nicely, the flow hits... but you have tons of house bees and not enough foragers to benifit... during that flow, the queen is laying (brood has to be fed), but when it starts to dwindle, so does her laying... Next flow hits, you have tons of new brood hatching and house bees moving up to foragers, the queen starts laying like crazy, and they consume a lot of the stores for rearing brood... Flow dwindles, so does the laying... Now the hot dry summer is here... the brood that was being laid so heavily in the second flow is now hatched and going through the motions... then after a long dry summer, the fall flow kicks in... Tons of foragers, tons of nectar, tons of new brood... Winter should be easy... Surplus, not so much... 

The best honey production queens will build up early and continue laying consistantly throughout the season, but at a slightly slower pace and in a slightly smaller area... so that the work force is consistantly in rotation and they never miss a flow... BUT at the same time, they do not use as much to feed brood either... 

The VSH trait means some brood is lost, house bees are busy uncapping and cleaning instead of preparing strorage space, foragers come too late to catch the best flows... but there is no stopping this trait as it is one of nature's responses to our mistakes... However... It also means healthy colonies that are not dwindling year round due to mites and diseases... we simply need to remain flexible with our management practices until this trait has settled and we know exactly how to manipulate them at that time... I encourage producers to make their usual manipulations at slightly different entervals and record the results of each alteration... This would be a good step in the right direction... Just a little foresight... I try to stay ahead of issues... I think we all have been through enough "Re-grouping" from pest after pest after disease... you get my point...


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## Cris

As a medic, scientist, and amateur beek (read: I'm picking my first package in just a few days) I must ask two questions:

1. Are we talking short term or long term gain?

2. How dependent are we, as humans in the US, on honey?

Why I ask: first, the medic in me says, 'the strong will survive and the weak will not', while the scientist says, 'what makes 'the perfect bee'', while the complete bee newb says, 'how can my colony thrive with a minimum of interventions on my part?'

If we are to create a honey bee that tolerates - or, preferably, thrive - in the face of parasites then we can't keep chemically treating them for said parasites. If this means less honey production then what of it: do we want survival or money? Humans do not _need _honey but many make their living from it, so what will we have: long term survival of the bees or the commercial beek? I've no wish to disparage the commercial folks - I myself was in the Army for a long time and now work at the VA so I know all about 'doing the best you can with what you've got' but this whole issue seems to me to be devolving into one simple issue: them, or us?


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## frazzledfozzle

Cris said:


> As a medic, scientist, and amateur beek (read: I'm picking my first package in just a few days)
> 
> If this means less honey production then what of it: do we want survival or money? Humans do not _need _honey but many make their living from it, so what will we have: long term survival of the bees or the commercial beek?


why not both?
you haven't even picked up your first package and already you think the "commercial" beekeeper is a bad thing.
I would suggest that if it wasn't for the commercial beekeeper there wouldn't be enough bees left for you to even buy a package.

frazz


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## Cris

I never said a comm. beek was bad: I said we were going to end up choosing between production (and therefor the continuation of honey as a commercial crop) and long term survival of the bees (which would be in favor of the hobbyist).


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## rrussell6870

The bees aren't going anywhere... at least I can say MINE AREN'T. Simply because I REFUSE to allow some student to decide what kind of bees they want me to raise this year... The greatest threat to the survival of the bees is the one that is never really mentioned... but you just pointed out... the over eager acts of those assuming that the bees of the US are "weak because they die when you introduce parasites and diseases that they would never have encountered at such expansive rates in a natural state... the importation of fruits, vegetables, etc.. has always and will continue to bring new and deadly threats into our country... the government puts regulations on the experts to keep them from importing important maternal lines into the country to stop inbreeding, yet the government itself keeps bringing in pests and diseases then selling the "silver bullets" that THEY import from other countries... only to add insult to injury by adding lines that are hundreds of years away from becoming acclimated to our climates... these "overnight cures" may address one problem temporarily, but soon add a whole new list of issues for our industry to suffer through... this is why I keep pushing for people to think first, and take the long road to success instead of the "silver bullets" or letting their bees die off, taking entire maternal lines with them... the bees are not the problem, they never have been... the "fix" is the problem...

The discussion that we were having is simply for the benefit of those that make their living from keeping healthy, productive bees... honey production WILL decrease... that is inevitable... but whether it drops quickly and destroys those companies that depend on it, or decreases gradually and allows the price to rise as the production lowers is up to us...

If those that are accustomed to getting 1.50 per pound suddenly only produce half as many pounds, they will go out of business and their bees will likely die either from excessive splitting for salvage or from the next threat that comes along... 

But if that same producer sees a slow decrease in production, they will have a chance to slowly raise their prices and thus the market will adjust to the production levels of the bees.... then the producer stays in business, the bees stay in the hives, and when the next big threat comes along, they will have the resources to do whatever is necessary to protect the bees from it.

Again... the bees are not dying because they are weak... they are dying because people are weak... keep this in mind next time you see melons, peaches, and strawberries at the grocery store in winter... we HAVE to start letting Americans feed America and the leaders of the industry that truly care (and have the most to LOSE) provide for the bees.

Please keep in mind that the commercial bee keeper has more to lose than any usda lab, hobbiest, or retailer if the bees were to die off... for the vast majority of the commercial bee keepers, their job is not just about making honey, but more so about keeping bees... to make honey, they must first make bees... if they were not interested in having healthy, thriving bees, they would not be in business for long at all.

Commercial beekeepers are those that have been taking care of bees full time, usually all of their lives, and in most cases they are the grand children and great grandchildren and great, great grandchildren of the people that were caring for bees all of Their lives... the founders of the industry are commercial beekeepers, they know bees... usually better than they know humans... keep an open mind and don't fall victim to the "hype" and falsehoods that you hear... that is all just intended to split the industry to boost certain markets... we are ALL bee keepers, we ALL care about the bees, and I assure you that the commercial beekeepers will gladly help you and anyone else that shows interest in bees... I also encourage you to tour a real commercial operation... you would be surprised at just how great their bees are and how much they know and do for ALL honey bees everyday.


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## frazzledfozzle

I'm not going to get into a slanging match with you Cris but just take another look at what you wrote and then tell me you weren't having a "go" at the commercial beekeeper



Cris said:


> while the complete bee newb says, 'how can my colony thrive with a minimum of interventions on my part?'
> 
> If we are to create a honey bee that tolerates - or, preferably, thrive - in the face of parasites then we can't keep chemically treating them for said parasites. If this means less honey production then what of it:
> 
> do we want survival or money? Humans do not _need _honey but many make their living from it, so what will we have: long term survival of the bees or the commercial beek? I've no wish to disparage the commercial folks - this whole issue seems to me to be devolving into one simple issue: them, or us?


I dont know how to isolate and highlight multiple parts of a post so I have to do it this way.

comments on paragraph 1,
As a commercial beekeeper this is a question I also ask myself it's not something only a newbie or a "treatment free" beekeeper is interested in.

Paragraph 2,
Is this your opinion? scientific fact? or something thats a popular concept at the moment? 
It's not just honey thats important to commercial beekeepers alot of us rely on healthy hives to pollinate crops you can't pollinate crops if your hives are riddled with disease.

paragraph 3 
this really gets my blood pressure up

"do we want survival or money?"

"so what will we have: long term survival of the bees or the commercial beek?"

meaning what? that commercial beekeepers are only in it for the money and the way they manage their hives is bring down the bees chance of survival?

that we can't have commercial beekeepers and long term survival of bees? because commercial beekeepers are only interested in the amount of honey they can get and will treat willy nilly to get?

give me a break

frazz


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## TwinkieBee

Long term survival of the bees is important to everyone whether they be commercial or hobbyist. If the bees die out then EVERYONE on the planet loses. Without bees no one has honey money or the majority of their food. Immunizations are used for humans to build up resistances. A SMALL dose of the illness is injected into our bodies thus allowing us to learn and fight it off if we ever come in contact with it. If a foreign disease showed up and we had no medicines to combat it and our bodies had no experience with it we would die. Same with bees. They are treated to combat the pest through time and small levels of the pests presence the bees learn to combat them as well. There also is no "them or us" in this industry. The bees come before most peoples family and especially before themselves. This is a statement from experience not an assumption. Most commercial beekeepers are doing everything they can to help the survival of honeybees. These guys started with only a few hives, worked like crazy to get where they are, i don't believe they just stopped caring about the bees survival. The commercial guys just have to work harder with a LOT more bees to keep them alive as well as provide honey, pollination (so we can continue to eat) as well as more bees to other people to try to keep alive. I am treatment free but only because someone took the time to build resistances in my bees by "helping" them to survive before i got them.


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## sqkcrk

Cris said:


> Why I ask: first, the medic in me says, 'the strong will survive and the weak will not', while the scientist says, 'what makes 'the perfect bee'', while the complete bee newb says, 'how can my colony thrive with a minimum of interventions on my part?'


A. Until you own bees you are not a beekeeper. Someone soon to be a beekeeper, may be a beekeeper soon, but not yet one. That would be like me saying I'm a Great Grandfather, since I have Grandchildren.

B. I'm glad you are a Medic. I assume, since you mentioned The Army, that you were/are an Army Medic. You may have noticed that the strongest survived, but you didn't have that attitude about the wounded while in combat, did you?

C. Sure, people can survive w/out honey, but is that all you want to do, Survive?

Get back to us after you have had bees for a cpl years and have done what you can to keep them alive.


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## StevenG

I'm a sideliner with two goals - happy, healthy, thriving bees chemical free; and financial income from honey and wax sales.

When we speak of Us/Them in reference to beekeeping, bees, mites, and honey production, my first thought is Us = bees and their stewards/partners, the beekeepers. Them = the mites, and other pests/predators. As several others have pointed out, the bees will survive without us, but how will we do, either commercial, hobbiest, or sideliner (to say nothing of the food producers) without the bees? 
Regards,
Steven


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## WLC

I feel that you will have bees that are both pest/pathogen resistant and productive in the near future.

They've only recently sequenced the honeybee genome as well as the genomes of a number of its pests and pathogens.

It's just a matter of time.


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## slickbrightspear

What does it cost to treat a hive (including the labor to do so and travel ) if those hives only made half the amount of your treated hives how much of the extra income is being spent on treating those hives how many pounds of honey does it take to pay for the treatment.


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## fafrd

The overall subject is fascinating and I am just reading for now, but I did want to provide a small input on this question:



frazzledfozzle said:


> I dont know how to isolate and highlight multiple parts of a post so I have to do it this way.


frazzledfozzle,

after starting your post with the quote button (as you have already done), you just need to cut and past the begin qoute text that has [_ QUOTE=postername;postnumber] (I've added a '_' between the '[' and 'QUOTE' so you see the text and not the quote) then after the portion of text you want to quote you need to cut and past the end quote text [/QUOTE] (no effect when a valid QUOTE as not already in effect, so I didn't need to insert '_' to make my response readable to you)

Here is your message reformatted in this way (all responses quoting frazzledfozzle, not me ):

[[[BEGIN REFORMATTED RESPONSE FROM FRAZZLEDFOZZLE



Chris said:


> while the complete bee newb says, 'how can my colony thrive with a minimum of interventions on my part?'


 As a commercial beekeeper this is a question I also ask myself it's not something only a newbie or a "treatment free" beekeeper is interested in.



Chris said:


> If we are to create a honey bee that tolerates - or, preferably, thrive - in the face of parasites then we can't keep chemically treating them for said parasites. If this means less honey production then what of it:


Is this your opinion? scientific fact? or something thats a popular concept at the moment? 
It's not just honey thats important to commercial beekeepers alot of us rely on healthy hives to pollinate crops you can't pollinate crops if your hives are riddled with disease.



Chris said:


> do we want survival or money? Humans do not need honey but many make their living from it, so what will we have: long term survival of the bees or the commercial beek? I've no wish to disparage the commercial folks - this whole issue seems to me to be devolving into one simple issue: them, or us?


this really gets my blood pressure up

"do we want survival or money?"

"so what will we have: long term survival of the bees or the commercial beek?"

meaning what? that commercial beekeepers are only in it for the money and the way they manage their hives is bring down the bees chance of survival?

that we can't have commercial beekeepers and long term survival of bees? because commercial beekeepers are only interested in the amount of honey they can get and will treat willy nilly to get?

give me a break

frazz



END REFORMATTED RESPONSE FROM FRAZZLEDFOZZLE]]]

I only went to the trouble of explaining how to sub quote and requote becasue I think that for a complex multi-point response such as yours, it makes the response much more readable to be able to format the back-and-forth this way.

-fafrd


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## Omie

slickbrightspear said:


> What does it cost to treat a hive (including the labor to do so and travel ) if those hives only made half the amount of your treated hives how much of the extra income is being spent on treating those hives how many pounds of honey does it take to pay for the treatment.


Well if you are going to go that route then you could also factor in being able to sell untreated honey for a premium price (assuming/hoping folks use actual honesty in labeling). For example, I'm always happy to pay way more for honey that I know to be less treated and local. All my friends feel the same way.


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## frazzledfozzle

Thanks for taking the time fafrd I appreciate it

kiwi


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## frazzledfozzle

I can't comment on treatment used in the US but in New Zealand we use Bayvarol and Apivar, these are removed before the honey boxs go on,
The wax we gat back from our cappings is sold to a buyer who exports it. The wax goes through rigorous testing for all manner of chemicals, to date no residues have been found in our wax, If they aren't in the wax they wont be in the honey. 
We rotate our combs out of the brood nest replacing the 2 outside frames every year, meaning no comb in our hives is more than 5 years old.

We dont treat for nosema or foulbrood or use chemicals when storing empty supers the only thing we put in our hives is the miticides.

There's more chance of having our honey tainted by the lady down the road spraying her roses or the council worker up the road spraying the gorse on the roadside than we are by anything we use in our hive.

frazz


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## Ted Kretschmann

I will answer this question. The cost of treating a colony of bees. Well, we have somewhere right at this moment 2400 colonies of bees. I am not really sure because the bees are really healthy and we are still splitting more bees. Healthy bees build back up quick, even after splitting, and will still try to swarm. That is just the nature of the stinging little devils.....So to treat that many hives of bees, we will have to purchase 40 pails of "Blue Bucket", known as APIGUARD. One bucket treats around 60 colonies of bees. A bucket will run somewhere around 90.00 right off the top of my head....So that equals to a 1.50 a colony. Since this operation is an Intergrated Pest Managment operation, we will rotate out the following year say with Apistan. Which cost around a 1.85 a strip.--The last I bought cost that two years ago. This outfit is also a low dosage outfit, so we have always used just one strip to the hive. This year we will rotate out for real with the new formic acid strip. The cost of placing these medication in my colonies is negligible....We are already out in the beeyards working with the bees, so this is just one more thing we do before we leave the yard. Generally we have a dearth between Chinese Tallow and Cotton. That is when we treat. So the cost of Diesel really can not be brought into the equation. So if honey is going to be 1.68 a pound for grades 1-5 (Souix honey grading system) then you can say that the cost of treating a beehive is one pound of honey. This is cheap insurance to keep something as precious as a bee, alive from season to season. Right now we have about .75 mites to the hundred bees. Some hives you can not even find them. Though there are the VSH genetics present in these bees. If a package of bees or a nuc averages around 90.00 then it will take 60 pounds of honey to replace a hive that dies of Varroatosis. The equation is 60 pounds or 1 pound. It does not take a rocket scientist to do the math. TED


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## Omie

Ted Kretschmann said:


> I am not really sure because the bees are really healthy and we are still splitting more bees. Healthy bees build back up quick, even after splitting, and will still try to swarm...
> ...If a package of bees or a nuc averages around 90.00 then it will take 60 pounds of honey to replace a hive that dies of Varroatosis. The equation is 60 pounds or 1 pound. It does not take a rocket scientist to do the math. TED


You buy a $90 package from somebody to replace a lost hive? Isn't it way cheaper and quicker to take a split or make a nuc from your booming hives?


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## sqkcrk

He does not do what you thought he said. He said "if", in order to illustrate the rationale behind not letting a cololny die for lack of spending the equivalent of a pound of honey in treatment.


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## Ted Kretschmann

The "if" was for the people that buy bees and do not treat them. Then they die. Thus they are out of 90.00. I produce bees for sale. We use our own bees internally in my operation to make up losses. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Mark knew where I was coming from. TED


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## Ted Kretschmann

Replacement cost of a package of bees or nuc--$90.00 from your reputable breeder or 60 pounds of honey....Cost of preventative treatment against varroa mite--$1.68 or 1 pound of honey. It is cheaper to treat than replace. TED


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## WLC

The point that I think is being made here is that you can have resistant/productive bees and apply IPM to further reduce losses.

Since no one has been able to say precisely why or how bees become resistant (with a few exceptions), who is to say that this isn't the case in a commercial operation that applies IPM?

Just because you have resistant bees doesn't automatically preclude treatments. Especially if it makes sense for the bottom line.

This seems to be a case of a philosophy of beekeeping vs a business model.


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## sqkcrk

Well, for use who depend on bees for our living, it is a business as well as a way of life.


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## Ted Kretschmann

WLC, so many of the non treatment people have adopted a live or die mentality.You need to read Dr. Russells post in the earlier part of this thread of how bees become resistant to mites. Yes, there is VSH genetics in this operation. The rest of the bees from the breeding experiment were put back into the general bee population of this outfit. Over time the genetics from their offspring have spread. Not all the hives have this recessive gene in them, so we treat. Also I want a bee that produces honey,not cleans house all the time. There is a happy medium somewhere between the two. TK


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## WLC

Yep. However, there seems to be more than one way to view this.

For instance, I need to be able to demonstrate Honeybee disease resistance.
My first choice is hygienic bees because you can show how they clear frozen brood comb as a measure of the hygienic trait. 'Survivor' bees don't lend themselves well to a demonstration of resistance. There are too many unknowns.

Here's my point; there's nothing that says I can't treat hygienic bees. Nor am I precluded from finding the right balance of the hygienic trait and productivity (although I need a demo more than I need productivity).

However, I am following a philosophy (no treatment, and natural comb) as part of the science. I need to be able to take concrete measurements as part of that. 

If I was doing this for profit, the 'philosophy' would go out the window. I would have to make it work, and the VSH and IPM approach makes sense to me as a way to get a handle on resistance, productivity, and profit.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Glad to see that somebody on the nontreatment side of beekeeping has figured out how I and other commercial beekeepers think and operate. VSH trait is slowly developing across the board in most of the populations of honeybees in the USA. I remember years ago, when Varroa first infested hives, they would be dead in three or four months tops if left untreated. Now Varroa can take three to four years to kill a colony and sometimes does not..Why, natural resistance. TED


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## Omie

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Replacement cost of a package of bees or nuc--$90.00 from your reputable breeder or 60 pounds of honey....Cost of preventative treatment against varroa mite--$1.68 or 1 pound of honey. It is cheaper to treat than replace. TED


True... *if* you replace lost hives by buying packages and nucs rather than by making your own nucs and splits. It seems to me that would apply mostly to hobbiests, who aren't usually dependent on honey production for a living anyway.

Don't get me wrong... I feel there is a happy medium to be found too- and I suspect the smarter commercial BKs already use IPM and are looking into introducing a percentage of resistant genetics to some degree. Yet the bottom line is pollination and honey production for commercial bk survival, and they do still need to treat in some manner or to some degree until the 'perfect bee' is either bred or has adapted on its own. I assume nobody 'wants' to spend money on chemicals and meds and treat their bees _if_ they could get along just fine without. I think we are all really on the same side- bee health, productivity, and survival.


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## slickbrightspear

I did not say they shouldn't treat when you make your living on bees only asked the cost difference. although I do think you low balled the amount it costs somewhat.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Omie, we are all on the same team. I am a pre 1984 beekeeper. I remember what it was like keeping bees and not having all the pestilence that bees have today. The money spent on treatments would be better spent elsewhere. But the cost of replacing bees, whether you split them yourselves as we do. Or buy them is also an expensive proposition. Slick, you must consider as a commercial beek, I buy things in quantity and get a pretty good price break. Now I have not priced what the cost of treatments will be for this year. But the plan is to use the new formic mite strips. So that might raise the ratio up. TED


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## rrussell6870

Omie, you have to consider the cost of the lost increase... ie, in Teds operation, he could nearly double his total number of hives each season, as part if a ten year plan, this expansion would increase the current value of his business, because of the future productivity... the more losses that he insures, the less the average expansion can be... over ten years even 10% loss could equal thousands of hives that wouldn't be able to be counted on.


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## rrussell6870

We do know how and why bees become resistant to varroa... the main debate has always been whether to get them there by letting them build resistances over time by keeping the mites in check with treatments, breeding in foreign strains that have already been exposed to mites long enough to build resistances, or letting all of the "family lines" that are not yet resistant enough to fight the mites on their own completely die out leaving only the few lines that are currently resistant enough...

The effects of commercial operations that keep their maternal lines alive long enough for them to develop resistances is actually better for our future in that we only have so many lines to work with in the first place... if we were to let the vast majority of lines die off, we wouldn't have enough lineages left to continue for long before we start to see a gross expansion of inbreeding...

If we keep breeding in foreign strains that are far from acclimated to our multiple environments, who will be able to provide spring packages, queens, etc?... who will pollenate the early blooming crops?

We do not have to treat, but if it were not for those that do, we would not have enough lines to continue selecting and breeding for these resistances...

For the hobbiest, its not that big of a deal to lose their hives, in that it is not enough to effect the national bee populations... but if the commercial operations lost their lines, the WHOLE nation would eventually feel the sting... NOT because of a loss of bees for sale, wax production, honey production, or revenew... But because of all of the lines.

There is a bit more science involved than most think... it goes both ways as well.. The small time sideliner may keep buying bees for decades and eventually have a yard or two of resistant colonies, and although they are relying more on luck, they can then offer queens that a commercial operation can use a few of into a few yards to keep adding diversity that has a known resistant origin... Thus the experimental sideliner can be an asset... The hobbiest is also an asset to the industry in two ways... 1st they provide funding by purchasing their bees and equipment... organizing a large scale developement is very expensive, and they provide their share of support by simply buying bees... 2nd they provide a link to the communities for support... the commercial guys are few and far between and lets face it, most of them wouldnt want to talk bees to someone that has NO IDEA at all... so the newbee and hobbiests are communicating the needs and concerns of the industry to those that they know during their learning... its a great help, SO LONG AS they are not given the wrong impression (such as the commercial guys are killing the worlds bees and hobbiest are the only ones that want the bees to survive... as was mentioned earlier)... Bad info like this spreads MUCH faster than good info... everybody loves controversy...

All in all, we are ALL bee keepers, we ALL love bees, there are no "sides" to take, no "groups" to be classified as, no reasons to fight... everyone is doing what they should do, EXCEPT for those that seek to divide the industry for their own personal gain or lack of tact.


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## Omie

Well stated RR.
I too believe that both commercial and hobbiest are doing different yet valuable things that really can compliment each other in terms of the long term benefits to bees, bee breeding, and successful beekeeping. Variety in genetics, approaches, and methods maintains vitality.


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## Riverratbees

Hey Ted: I experimented with B-Weaver queens myself I purchased the Taylormade queen I had a real good outcome with that queen. That queen produced a entire hive body full of of honey and 3 shallow supers. I never treated these bees the entire summer or winter. I was going to raise queens from her this year and a sow bear and cubs ate well. These bees were bred in australia and they can't send due to sickness on that continent. I was going to outfit all my hives with that strain. Currently I have been removing colonies from homes I hope to monitor them to see production of honey etc. Maybe hit a home run one hive collected last year produced 90lbs of honey and started from foundation. Later


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## heaflaw

Omie said:


> Well stated RR.


Yes, you explained that in a way I hadn't thought of before.


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## Omie

rrussell6870 said:


> We do know how and why bees become resistant to varroa... the main debate has always been whether to get them there by letting them build resistances over time by keeping the mites in check with treatments, breeding in foreign strains that have already been exposed to mites long enough to build resistances, or letting all of the "family lines" that are not yet resistant enough to fight the mites on their own completely die out leaving only the few lines that are currently resistant enough...


What factor or combination of these factors do you think were at work when bees apparently became successfully resistant to tracheal mites?


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## rrussell6870

I feel that t-mites were only an issue because of the quick spread and weakened status of the bees due to improper diet. Let's face it, bees are naturally suppose to have a diverse diet just as all animals are... monocrops and syrup do take their toll by throwing off the balance of microbes... that said, we have a responsibility to feed this nation and the agricultural system "is what it is", so instead of reinventing the wheel, we just have to make better tires... if that makes sense. Lol. 

The need for early build up in bees that are not acclimated to the early blooming crops requires some sort of feeding... there is no doubt about that... so when the t-mites hit, the bees were already well off balance and not in there natural state of microbial health... thus they were not able to address the t-mite issues that spread very rapidly and built in numbers across Apiaries at an overwhelming rate. 

This led to heavy initial losses.. the treatments along with a wave of new healthier feed choices gave the bees a chance to address the t-mites and I believe the same is true for varroa... in time each breed of bee will address the issue, but it will require this industry to focus on healthy diets as well as control of the mite populations within Apiaries.... even the most resistant colony will fail if it is overwhelmed by enough invading mites.

Hope this helps!


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## Ted Kretschmann

Robert is correct in his post. I would like to add one thing. The tracheal mite had been previously encounted by our bees --(European Honey Bees) in the past on the continent of Europe. So there was already some genetically built in resistance in some of the lineages of European bees. Brother Adam had bred the buckfast bee from survivor stock in England for resistance to tracheal mite, known as the Isle of Wight disease in earlier times. Since Buckfast bees were already here in the USA, along with the importation of ARS-Y1 (Yugoslavian Carniolians), added to the latent genetic resistance of the general bee population in the USA, tracheal mites are for the most part "bred" out of existance. I am glad too. I got tired of handling menthol crystals in bulk form. Have you ever accidently sat on one of those pellets on your bee truck seat ??? TK


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## rrussell6870

:lpf: I have one better... lol. I had a gallon jar of pure menthol with me in a yard that I was working a long time ago... I had set it on a hive and started working right at daylight... lost track of the time and around noon, I was ready to use the menthol in my test hives...(it was about 90 degrees by this time, but a sweat covered "man on a mission" just doesn't think things through very well. Lol)... so of course I knelt down by a hive and opened the jar... LIGHTS OUT!... about 30 minutes later I came to and had one heck of a head ache. Lol. That was the FIRST time that I was going to try menthol... it was also the LAST time that I ever opened that dang jar! :lpf:


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## Apiator

Interesting discussion. I have questions on 3 posts:




Ted Kretschmann said:


> While we bred a resistant bee, it was worthless for honey production. The crops were too small and the colonies were too small in numbers. So there is a trade off. You sacrifice something to get something. In this case, resistance for honey production.


You said that you developed this strain over 7 years, then gave them away. Wouldn't it have been possible at that point to start selecting for production, and perhaps 5-10 years later, have both?

I know with plant breeding, I can select multiple traits simultaneously, or get one trait down then work on another, so I'm curious.




rrussell6870 said:


> This is a complex issue for commercial producers and needs to be addressed especially as national production averages are suffering such a great decline.


Doesn't higher production equal lower prices per unit? Like soybean growers for example... the more they produce, the less payout per bushel is the trend over the last 20-30 years. Won't your wholesale honey buyers pull the same stunt, cutting your unit price as your surplus production goes up?




WI-beek said:


> If we can find a treatment that does not have significant side affects, can be used on a flow, and varroa cant evolve resistance,


That would be quite a hope, no? To stop one particular organism from evolving?


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## Michael Bush

>They've only recently sequenced the honeybee genome as well as the genomes of a number of its pests and pathogens.

But how will that help? The complexity of the relationship of the host and it's traits and the pest and it's traits are almost infinite. Even if you can map every genome, the combinational analysis of all the possibilities is huge. The scientists keep finding one trait they think is related and then spend years breeding for that one trait. I don't believe they will find one trait. I think you need to let Nature find her level and work this out. But you have to let her.


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## sevenmmm

This is such an interesting discussion. Diversity is important and you never know what backyard beek, or large commercial beek, or anyone in between will develop the next strain of bee capable of overcoming all of the hazards while producing more than ever. This would become a very important bee that would quickly replace all other strains...

Sorry, that is not funny.

I was wondering if anyone every tried to patent a bee strain?


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## rrussell6870

You cant really patent a strain because ultimately, you have no control over its make-up... there are no "recipes" for retreating an exact strain... as MB said nature creates the bees... selection for traits only tips the scale one way or the other, but selection from specific mothers "by colony performance", then "by strain", then "by trait", will produce great bees, but with different variances each time... 

Take the buclfast for instance... the true qualities of the original line were from the mothers of each strain that brother Adam crossed... you could spend a millennium crossing the same strains over and over and never truly reproduce the exact strain because every generation has changed the selected colonies that he used... nature and the breeders personal selections are the most important factors in creating a strain, thus if either the environment or the breeder changes, so will the strain... a strain of bees is a constantly evolving thing and has to be blended and corrected constantly to keep its own purity... some 120 generations later, it will "stabilize", but once intermingled with other strains, it will again have to be reconstructed.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Yes we donated the best colonies out of the experiment to a good cause. Robert Russell donated more bees than I had in my whole operation at the time so the USDA would have colonies to work with. When the chips were down and the industry was looking at a very real death by Varroa, the breeders in the south responded and sent the best resistant stocks they had. From those stocklines that were interbred came some of the mite resistant SMR/VSH lines that are in use today. If there ever was a time when everyone worked together for the common good of the industry--it was then. I am proud to say I had a little part in it. The remaining bees were put back into production. Those SMR/VSH traits are still out in my operation, scattered among several thousand colonies. I had some visitors a few weeks ago to my operation that needed some bulk bees. They know more about breeding bees than I could ever learn in a lifetime. They watched and pointed out colonies of bees that had the VSH trait. You could see the bees removing the larvae that had been accidently hurt in our manipulations. The bees would remove them and carry them out of the hive. So yes, the breeding goes on but on the larger operation level as a whole. TED


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## Apiator

rrussell6870 said:


> You cant really patent a strain because ultimately, you have no control over its make-up...


Your Supreme Court says you can indeed patent life.

There are already patented GE plants... and GE pigs. What's to stop them from patenting bees? Or bee genes, as would be the case? 

Let's say Monsanto puts a GE bee on the market. You don't buy any. But your neighbor does... his bees mate with your bees... now you have Monsanto patented genes in your bees, and you now owe them money for violating their patent.

This scenario already happens with plants. Hide & watch.


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## Ted Kretschmann

A long time ago cases went to the supreme court to determine who owns a swarm that lands on a tree but is in site of a beeyard. Is it the property of the beekeeper that owns the hive that the swarm issued from or the beekeeper that just happens to be in the area. The learned court determined that bees are not domesticated animals but considered "feral" in nature. Because of this determination, the brief goes on to state that the swarm of bees belongs to whoever can recover it because of its feral nature. The same would apply to the scenerio that you have proposed. I can not control where or what bees my queenbees mate with because they are feral in nature and wander where ever they please. For all I know they might go and mate with dung beetles and my honey might taste as such! So Monsanto would be hard pressed to patent bee genetics and expect the everyday beekeeper to pay a royalty. That would be paid by the bee breeder that signs a contract with the company. TED


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## heaflaw

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Yes we donated the best colonies out of the experiment to a good cause. Robert Russell donated more bees than I had in my whole operation at the time so the USDA would have colonies to work with.TED


I've always wondered where the beginnings of VSH came from. How many others contributed and were all the bees from breeders in the South?


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## rrussell6870

Agreed. There is no way to patent a strain of bees, because you have no control over the consistency of the genetics.. today it may be a Italian/Carniolan hybrid, tomorrow a Russian/Italian/Carniolan mut... each time they reproduce, they mate with up to 20 drones.. a blend that can alter their behavior and color completely... and what traits do we breed honey bees for?? Behavioral and color traits... 

I know of a few breeders that are trying to contract their customers to pay "royalties", and all I have to say about it is please use common sense when dealing with people like that... we have worked with bees from all over for a very long time and produced some really exceptional strains, but the strains do NOT "belong" to us alone... they belong to the bee keepers of this country and the countries that we supply. No man invented the bee... and No man can tell you that the bees that they sell you today will perform the same way for each season... 

If some tells you that they want a "royalty", tell them that you will pay a royalty on any queen that you produce from their stock that can promise will produce colonies that are identical to the mother colony in every way... you won't be writing many checks... 

It's better for the queens that you buy to be allowed to reproduce naturally the following year amongst your best colonies BEFORE you graft from them to produce queens for your own operation... your bees are acclimated to your climate... add that to the selected traits of the purchased queens and a mix of drones from the purchased queens and your best colonies and you will get excellent colonies to graft from.


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## Tim Stewart

This is a great thread, but has anyone mentioned selecting for a shorter pupal stage of the worker? I believe I saw somewhere that for every adult female mite that enters a worker brood cell an average of 1.2 adult female mites come out. Perhaps if we focused on cutting out 12 hours of the capped worker brood time period, we could lower that 1.2 figure to .95. That would leave drones as the only way that mites could get a lead on the bees. 

Tim Stewart
Stewart's Apiaries


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## rrussell6870

heaflaw said:


> I've always wondered where the beginnings of VSH came from. How many others contributed and were all the bees from breeders in the South?


No. Several migratory operations, honey producers, and other queen producers such as weaver and wilbanks did as well. VSH started up naturally as the bees response to the stresses of mites... they just needed to survive long enough to produce enough generations dealing with lower levels of the stress to start developing the trait. Honestly the colonies under our own manipulations seemed to progress quicker than those in the labs... the trouble was that once something worked on the lab, they couldn't duplicate it well in a working operation... so it slowed the results.


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## heaflaw

So, your (and Weaver's and other's) bees' resistance to mites is by VSH even though you have not purchased queens from Glenn Apiaries or another source from USDA?


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## rrussell6870

Absolutely. All bees will develop these traits as a result of the stresses of mites. Vsh and higher swarming are the first steps that they develop... through continually selecting for lowered swarming, you can minimize that effect, but vsh will still develop.


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## heaflaw

I've read that bees can develop other methods such as self-grooming or grooming each other. Is that prevelant?


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## rrussell6870

Those are some of the mechanics of the same trait. Think of it as advanced hygiene... with a direct intent to remove varroa from the colony.


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## Tim Stewart

So has anyone selected for a shorter capped brood period?
Other than AHB that is.

Tim Stewart


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## rrussell6870

Not that I know of. Although you are correct in that it would limit the mites reproduction greatly, my philosophy is to make no attempt to alter the bees, but allow them to address the issues in their own way and on their own time. I addressed the mite loads in the beginning to allow them a chance to do so. You would be very surprised at how many colonies of resistant bees are in operations today. 

These colonies can withstand mites quite well... however, people need to understand that in buying packages and nucs, the bees have been stressed and are in a much weaker state... set this weakened colony up in an area with higher numbers of mites (such as a treatment free beeyard) than they would have even experienced before they were displaced from their original colony, and you have a recipe for disaster. 

The other big issue that I see forming is the trend of people wanting "treatment free" bees in their packages and nucs... this is dangerous to say the least. The bees in the package and nuc will all die off and be replaced by what the queen produces... get treatment free queens (meaning queens that are produced from colonies, both graft and drone, that survive and thrive without interaction by man), these queens will produce a surviving colony, but NOT if your package or nuc brings an excessive amount of mites along with it. Mites will not destroy a hive, High numbers of mites will... enough mites, will destroy ANY hive... so many poor newbees are shooting themselves in the foot by buying treatment free bees to go along with their treatment free queens... let's not forget that this is how varroa swept through our industry in the first place...


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## Omie

Do small cell bees have a shorter development time than 'large cell' bees? Often the smaller an animal, the shorter its gestational period, but this might only apply to different species, not different breeds/strains of the same species.


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## Tim Stewart

rrussell, Wouldn't a shorter brood cycle be a trait that would help suppress mite reproduction but wouldn't (hopefully) harm honey production? Perhaps it may be "changing the bee" but our current VSH bee is a terrible producer, and Russians are terrible swarmers. 

I find that nucs built up for winter have lower mite levels than full strength hives that aren't of pure VSH stock. Could be the other way with stock, but no large beekeeper will keep bees that produce 1/2 the honey crop. Overwintered splits from last year seem to have lowest mites and best production in my operation.

Nobodies mentioned that honeybees have a much higher rate of crossing over than any other animal. This means that almost any combination of traits is possible, its just who will happen to end up with enough good different variations.

Tim


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## Omie

Tim Stewart said:


> I find that nucs built up for winter have lower mite levels than full strength hives that aren't of pure VSH stock. Could be the other way with stock, but no large beekeeper will keep bees that produce 1/2 the honey crop. Overwintered splits from last year seem to have lowest mites and best production in my operation.


Tim, why do you think that is? Did you let the queenless new nucs raise their own queens from eggs in late summer, thus breaking the mite breeding cycle before winter? Or some other reason for the winter nucs to have low mite counts?


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## mark c

Omie: I think that one of the possible reasons is that the nuc is building population, while the full sized colony is either staying constant or even reduceing in size. Thus as the mites keep going up in population, if the colony stays constant in population their mite load increases.


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## Apiator

Ted Kretschmann said:


> So Monsanto would be hard pressed to patent bee genetics and expect the everyday beekeeper to pay a royalty. That would be paid by the bee breeder that signs a contract with the company. TED





rrussell6870 said:


> Agreed. There is no way to patent a strain of bees, because you have no control over the consistency of the genetics..



Guys, I wasn't discussing the logical aspect of patenting bee genetics. To anyone with an ounce of common sense, patenting life forms should seem absurd in the extreme. You guys have common sense, and that, I think, is why you're not following me here.

Monsanto has already patented life forms. These life forms, also, are impossible to control genetically once they're out of the lab. Pollen or seed from a patented cultivar gets out, contaminates someone's organic crop. Not only does Monsanto take no responsibility for destroying an organic crop, they sue the organic farmer for growing their GM crop without a license.

This, too, is absurd to anyone with common sense. But this country is not governed by common sense. It's governed by the Golden Rule -- he who has the gold, makes the rules.

Half the executives at the FDA, USDA, EPA, and some of the Supreme Court, are former Monsanto employees. Why do you think they are allowed to patent any life form at all? And now that they have patented life forms, why on God's green earth would you think they'll stop short of bees? We're not talking about sane people here. 

This is something that won't bother the backyard hobbyist much, but you commercial guys had darn well better be anticipating it -- because the Supreme Court, I promise you, does not side with the farmer on this. 

Go to YouTube and search for the story of Percy Schmeiser. I'm betting neither of you is aware of it yet.


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## Omie

Apiator's correct. Monsanto sues the smaller farmer who is unfortunate enough to be anywhere near a patented GMO crop field to have pollen either blown by the wind or transferred by pollinators over to his crop. If that farmer grows his own seed, Monsanto sues him and proves that his crop contains genetics from their strain that is patented. Doesn't even have to be a pure patented strain. Guess who wins in court? The side with the big money. It's outrageous.
I'm a patent illustrator. There's a huge number of bio-tech genetic patents going down for all kinds of things.
Wouldn't Monsanto just love to patent various strains of bees though? Then they could control it all from either end, and get us both coming and going.


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## rrussell6870

I do not follow anything that Monsanto does, because I was taught that "no lesson is better than a bad lesson"... simply put, I refuse to listen to idiocy, as I feel that it may be contagious... I have heard of some of their actions, and was appalled, but I can promise you one thing... Ted and I are old fashioned southern agriculturalist... hell hath no fury like that of an old school southern farmer... we are well known for our hospitality AND our zero tolerance for bs... If Monsanto wanted to mess with MY bees, they would have the fight of their lives, and I am sure that I could easily rally many thousands to stand with me. ;-)


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## Apiator

rrussell6870 said:


> If Monsanto wanted to mess with MY bees, they would have the fight of their lives, and I am sure that I could easily rally many thousands to stand with me. ;-)


I appreciate your spunk... and I wish more people they've come after would stand up and spit in their face. Someday it's gotta happen.

Just two quick points to remember, though:

1) They can easily spend $100,000 _per day_ on lawyers. Can you, or any number of beekeepers?

2) Monsanto has yet to lose a patent case. Their record is strong enough that most cases are settled out of court, resulting in large fines paid by the farmer, and the farmer stuck with a gag order to never reveal details of said settlement.

I like the idea of thousands of people swarming a courthouse, screaming for Monsanto blood the next time they pick on a farmer, making it clear especially to the judge that they will not tolerate the destruction of farmers. It hasn't happened yet, and sadly, you'd be hard pressed to round up that many people who care. Someday, maybe....

Eventually, I think, the only way out of this mess would be for the Supreme Court to overturn their original decision that allowed patents on life forms. I forget the case and year, but it was about a modified bacteria that ate spilled crude oil.

Until then (haha) we're only going to see more of the same, taken to new extremes. Count on it.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Robert, Just let me know when and where the fight is and I will come a runnin" TED


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## rrussell6870

Yes I do have those resources, but no, I would not want to waste them on battling a herd of idiots. I think its fairly well known however that I personally would sell the roof over my head and the bed that I sleep in to fight for the bees in my hives... this is a third generation company and the legacy of three men that gave their all for the betterment of these bees and this industry... we have defeated the government twice already, to protect the genetics of the bees in the US... recently I was even forced to defeat my own brother to protect these lineages... I will not shy away from a fight and speak my mind, as I hold values very highly. 

We have nearly 4,000 customers, hundreds of which are multi million dollar operations, and I believe that they would quickly stand in that fight. 

It shouldn't come to that though because the science is just too convincing to the contrary... but as a start in the right direction, those who are concerned about this issue should simply refuse to support those that are trying to lay claim to the genetics in their bees... this would stop the rise of that policy. The longer it is left undisputed, the harder it will be to dispute when the need is there.


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## giant pumpkin peep

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Robert, Just let me know when and where the fight is and I will come a runnin" TED


ditto


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## Tim Stewart

way back there, yes mark c, bees can grow faster than the mites... until the queen maxes out. That's why Kirk Webster gets more tan 30% of his hives through the winter. That's why I do too.

Tim


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## WI-beek

"It shouldn't come to that though because the science is just too convincing to the contrary... but as a start in the right direction, those who are concerned about this issue should simply refuse to support those that are trying to lay claim to the genetics in their bees... this would stop the rise of that policy. The longer it is left undisputed, the harder it will be to dispute when the need is there."

Vote no by simply not spending your dollars on gm's. If the farmers would have simply not bought GM seeds they would have dropped the patents if thats what it took to sell the seed. It is of course not that simple for the farmers to make that choice but it is for us beekeepers (unless they build a miracle bee).


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## Ted Kretschmann

My biggest worry is if scientist genetically tamper with the honeybee, will it even be the same animal??? Will it even have the same behaviors????? Sure they might stick a gene from some other organism in the bee that will make it resistant to Varroa but who wants glow in the dark bees??? Would you even want to eat honey from such a creature? I said creature because what will it be, a honey bee??? From a pure genetics stand point--NO! I certainly do not want to own one of their bioengineered glow in the dark sheep. Some things in the world are better left alone to their own devices and honeybees are one of them. As many generations that a bee has in a year, breeding a better bee is the answer, the natural way. Not genetic splicing of genes. Bioengineers need to stay in their labs and engineer themselves and let bee breeders do their jobs. TK


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## WLC

I don't think that the Monsanto's of the world will be able to patent GM Honeybees anytime soon.

I do agree that Honeybees shouldn't be genetically engineered for many reasons.

However, as I've said before on this forum, there is evidence for the retrotransposition of virus fragments into the Honeybee genome (Maori et al., 2007). This is likely the result of the myriad of pests and pathogens that have been inflicted onto the Honeybee (and other native pollinators as well) via globalization. Surprisingly, these inserted virus fragments can also confer immunity to viruses.

I've raised the alarm over this 'genetic contaminant/molecular parasite' before. It's not the kind of resistance that you want to select for in your stock.

Honeybee breeders need to be aware of this new threat to the genetics of the Honeybee and act accordingly. Simply put, guard the genetics of your stock.

So you see Ted, you need to be more concerned about 'jumping genes' rather than Monsanto.


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## Apiator

Ted Kretschmann said:


> As many generations that a bee has in a year, breeding a better bee is the answer, the natural way. Not genetic splicing of genes. Bioengineers need to stay in their labs and engineer themselves and let bee breeders do their jobs. TK



Right. 

Now you know where all those crazy hippie leftie anti-GMO "foodie" treehugger people come from.  (Truth is, that's just what farmers have been programmed to think about anyone who cares what's in their food.)

I see no logical or moral difference between engineering bees, or things we already have seen like the mutant salmon, or splicing fish genes into tomatoes. Now, I hear, cows have been engineered that give human milk. If there isn't already a bee engineering program somewhere in a basement lab, I'd be very surprised.

It's your war too, gentlemen. It's everyone's war. We all eat food. All the little organic guys know this stuff... but it has yet to trickle up to the "get big or get out" boys.


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## rrussell6870

There is no doubt that the government has intentions to perverse every level of nature. The "us vs them" mentality is intended to split industries so that everyone points fingers at each other and never realizes that the one group that both sides have been supporting was the one that the entire industry should have been scrutinizing. The USDA has been planning on forcing primorsky genetics on all US bees by releasing thousands of swarms in strategic locations each season... but instead of an up-roar, they get more tax dollars... why? Because we are too busy arguing amongst ourselves about treating vs not treating. They shut down our borders and say that they are the only ones that can bring in new lines, yet when they do, they sell them to the highest bidder and lay claim to the genetics... have none of you ever wondered why a new pest or disease seems to pop up every time we get one under control... and this just happens to coincide with the request for more funding? Ted said it very well... this industries leaders are the experts, and should be able to oversee the students and inexperienced drs in these programs... they have nothing to lose.... WE DO.

If it is truly a "war", then the uniforms need to be identified... commercial beekeepers care about their bees just like the small guy does, if their bees fail, their children do not eat... let's work together as an industry and make ONE voice that speaks twice as loudly.


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## josethayil

So what happened with the plan to release the primorsky genetics everywhere? Is it going on or has it stopped now? 

I heard primorsky genetics is a mix of Carniolans and Caucasians with a little bit of AMM, Greek bees and Italians. Is it true? If its true, isnt it the same genetics which is already in the US? 

I guess the primorsky genetics was not selected for anything and basically stayed as wild population and developed resistance to varroa over time. So if they get introduced everywhere, they could bring in the old characters(genes) which were selected against for over a lot time my people. Am i right about this?


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## rrussell6870

You have the right idea... they are basically an older version of Ukrainian bees without the last 120+ years of selection... the lack of selection coupled with over a century of acclimization to an environment that is unlike any in this country make interbreeding this strain a huge leap in reverse for the needs of our agricultural system.

At the moment, I am not sure what their plans are... when I first heard about these plans, my blood boiled and I made several phone calls to try to intervene... since then, I have not heard or seen any other mention of the program... that does not mean that they have reversed their plans... more likely, they are just trying to stay below the radar to avoid a P.R. nightmare from the vast majority of the US beekeepers... the ones that they are Suppose to be working to help...


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## Heavenly bees

quick thought could the genetically modified plants be some how linked to ccd , bees forage on their so called plants and bring in pollen and nectar which in turn they feed the brood which some how alters the next gen. of offspring so we end up with bees flying out of colonies and with ccd


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## Ted Kretschmann

Russell has mentioned this a time or two in several different post of the following about the primorsky bees. I, having worked bees and lived several months in the Ukraine, can attest to the following as true and will back him up....Russell has stated repeatedly Ukrainian and Russian Beekeepers do not use the Primorsky bees. They use a very nice bee call the "Carpathian bee". Which is the Carniolian bee derivative from the Carpathian mountains region in the Ukraine. The Russian/Ukrainian beekeepers consider the Primorsky bee a "trash can" bee. Not fit to be living in one of their "Long Hives." So why would we want any more of these genetics spread around. My bees are slowly developing resistance on their own the slow way, the natural way and as a whole population in a commercial setting. As for CCD being related to GM crop pollens-most likely not, as I have many of hundred of colonies on GM crops and they are doing fine. CCD is more likely related to our European honeybees interacting with Africanized Bees and their symbiote the Small Hive Beetle. Through this interaction, our bees pick up the viruses that these two creatures carry and have no immunity for. Thus the European colonies Collapse. CCD was first identified in Bees owned by David Hackenburg that were overwintering in Florida. The area is known to be "Africanized" that he was in. Ponder on this a while. How many years has CCD been actually going on??? How many years have bees in the USA been in contact with AHB and small hive beetle?? What are the corrolations?? This will have to have it own thread posted later in the day. TK


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## josethayil

Found some links on Ukraine Bees. Check them out.

http://www.apimondia.org/2009/biology/symposia/Are Ukrainian bees a separate race - ILYASOV R.pdf

http://www.honeyua.com/korea/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=31&lang=en


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## BeeCurious

I wonder what the Russians and Ukrainians would think about the average Italian queen shipped in a package to U.S. beekeepers.


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## Apiator

rrussell6870 said:


> an environment that is unlike any in this country



Not spent many winters in North Dakota, I take it?


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## heaflaw

rrussell6870 said:


> You have the right idea... they are basically an older version of Ukrainian bees without the last 120+ years of selection... .


I thought the Primorsky bees were what USDA bred and released years ago as Russians. Many beekeepers on Beesource seem to have them. Or, am I confused?


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## rrussell6870

BeeCurious, we have had many Russian and Ukrainian entomologists and commercial beekeepers stay with us over the years, and even with their unwavering pride for all that is native to their lands, they each begged for Sunkist stock to take to their countries... the Ukraine has very exceptional bees, as Ted pointed out... the Carpathian is gentle, sturdy, and extremely productive. If they had used a combination of the selection process that we use here with there native adaptive bees, the result would be astonishing... the down side to their situation is that the selection processes were more lax and this there are widely differing stocks in each yard... one hive may be superb in production, while the next two are less than average production but very gentle, then the next have great build up but less production... we have worked for many years teaching and exchanging knowledge and experiences with their industry leaders to help them to better isolate these traits and build on their presence across the strains... in turn, they have helped us to better understand the ways that varroa has effected their bees since its introduction, and the ways that their bees have been addressing those stresses.

Apiator, ND is certainly a climate of its own... but the bees of the primorsky region are acclimated to much more than just cold and long winters... there are completely different food sources, dietary and behavioral foraging, pests, diseases, and predation, and competition... another aspect of the issues involved is that any strain introduced into the US MUST be evaluated to see what will happen when it is crossed with the current inhabitants... but the most important issue of all is that the US bee and agricultural system works as a system within itself... if the primorsky bee was to perform perfectly in the ND region, that is fine, but how would it effect the bees of the south, east, mid-west, west, and north... these other areas all work together to provide pollenation at different times for crops that bloom at different times and are required to feed the nation.


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## rrussell6870

Heaflaw, you are correct, and many people have been able to adjust to the different management needs of the primorsky bees in order to keep them... however, they have also been a large expense in the form of losses to many operations that were mis-informed and realised only after it was too late that these bees are lightyears away from becoming acclimated to the vast majority of our climates and environments, and after selecting away from their natural excessive swarming tendencies and without the deep winters of their homeland, they were even less of a match for varroa, and actually more of an acceptable breeding ground for shb... maybe someone from Florida, Georgia, or Texas can chime in with their experiences in this matter...


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## rrussell6870

Again, the best defense that any bee has against pests and disease is its own natural health... bees that are acclimated to the area, allowed a wealth of foraging resources, and kept in a manner as to keep our imported pests and diseases at a minimal, will indeed survive and thrive better than any cross. Bees adapt to address the needs of their surroundings over generations... taking a strong, thriving strain from one environment, and placing it in a different environment will make it the weakest one of the new environment... only through time will that strain develop to be able to withstand the change... there are no "silver bullets", only hard work, sound science, and many generations of the both.


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## josethayil

How is the varroa resistance of the Carpathian Bee? Are they any good or need to be treated for varroa? 

Sounds like if they are resistant to varroa, they would have been a much better import than the russians. Not that they should have imported russian bees. But if they had to import, they would have done better with the Carpathian bees I guess.


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## rrussell6870

They are fairly resistant... however, they do still use treatments there to keep varroa populations under control... I believe it has been said that the best Carpathian Carnica are as resistant as the average primorsky... resistances are all based on length of exposure... the longer a strain is exposed, the better it will be able to handle the pest or disease. I agree that the Carpathian would have been a better project... the primorsky was just assumed to be a "silver bullet", but the innerworkings of the industry was not considered like it should have been.


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## josethayil

So the Carpathian bees are Carniolan in origin or are they decended from the Macedonian bees? I thought the Ukraine bees were of Macedonian origin. 

Both Carniolans and Macedonians are similar in most characters except the Macedonian Bees dont swarm much and use lot of propolis as opposed to Carniolans which swarm more and use less propolis. Both are exceptionally gentle though.


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## josethayil

I had been reading about the Carpathian bees a bit in the last few days. Seems to be a good bee with a lot of good characters which are favorable. Definitely would have been a better import than the Russian bees.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Jose, both bees occur in the Ukraine. Even the Ukrainian steppe honeybee. Truth be known the steppe bee is the root stock of the Primorsky bees along with the Carpathians. I have worked with Carpathian bees and it is too bad that the rest of the world does not use them even more. TED


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## josethayil

Hi TED,
From what I have read up, they seems to be a very good bee with fast spring buildup and low swarming and very gentle. The are dark colored bees which are similar in appearance with carniolans and caucasians. Is this correct? and How was the honey production and propolis use of them? Did they show good resistance to varroa?

Any other characters which you would like to share with us in will be nice. Always good to learn more about new races of bees.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Everything you have described is correct. They are a fairly large bee. And a good looking well proportioned bee. Honey production is very good and would be better if the Ukrainian beekeeping industry were just a little more modern in their approach. The Ukraine produces almost as much honey as the USA. Over in the Ukraine, treatments are expensive. One apistan strip will cost 15.50 hyrivna. Which is a lot of money for the average Ukrainian beekeeper. So the bees over time have developed pretty good resistance to Varroa. Hive Collapse does occur in the Ukraine but it was debated whether it was caused by Varroa or something else a few years back. Propolis is a little more than the average Carni and slightly less than Mnt Gray Caucs. Over in Ukraine, People do not mind a bee that uses propolis. As it is harvested and sold for use in medicines and tinctures. You can work a russian "long" hive with not too much prying of the frames due to propolis. These long hives are big, heavy affairs made of two inch thick lumber. They can house one colony or two if it is the Ukrainian version. Honey is harvested either by the frame or by the super since some beekeepers are now experimenting supering vertically on top of their long hives. Beehives in the Ukraine are painted the blue color of the country's national flag. Which is a nice color for a beehive. Beekeeping is a time honored tradition in the Ukraine That goes back thousands of years and is a source on national pride. Peter Petrovich invented the first movable frame hive with the bee space not what you have been taught that Langstroth invented it. The Ukrainians will tell you this very quickly. For every 90 people in the Ukraine, one of them is a beekeeper. Do the math-43,000,000 million people equals how many beekeepers? Women keep as many bees as the men. The bees wax is used for Foundation or candles for the Russian or Ukrainian Orthodox churches. Honey is prefered to be eaten in crystalized form. There is a system of breeding stations for bees at various districts in the country for the breeding of bees. I would recommend anybody traveling Eastern Europe to visit the Petrovich beekeeping institute. We can learn alot from these beekeepers and need more of their bees and genetics in this country. I have enjoy my time in the Ukraine with the beekeepers and the people. It is a pretty country and the people are a good gentle people just like the bees they raise. TED


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## josethayil

Thanks a lot for the reply Ted. Its always good to hear about different strains, ecotypes and subspecies of bees from people who had experience with them(like you).


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## Ted Kretschmann

There is a former Ukrainian marriage stamp in my passport. TED


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## heaflaw

Ted,

I tried to find info on Peter Petrovich. Nothing came up on google or wikopedia. How can I find information about him?


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## Stonefly7

I think he's talking about the Prokopovych Beekeeping Institute in the Ukraine.

Kind regards


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## Ted Kretschmann

Yes, Tim is right. You have to google the Ukrainian spelling not the Russian spelling of the man's name. His name is Peter Prokopivych. He operated up to 10,000 colonies of bees around 1810 if my memory is correct, in the first movable frame colonies that had bee space!! Sorry for the mistake in language. I speak Russian not Ukrainian, though many of the words are very close in sound and spelling. That is why I also have Natasha along to translate when I travel there. TK


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## jim lyon

I hear ya Ted, I just hate it when I get my Russian and Ukranian words confused.


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## WI-beek

Petro Prokopovych

http://beekeeping.com.ua/html_en/prokopovych_en.html


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## Ted Kretschmann

Wi, what did you learn about the man? Pretty interesting beekeeper, huh?? TED


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## josethayil

There are a few videos about Carpathian bees in youtube. Type in "Apis Mellifera Carpatica" and it should come up.

They look very similar to carniolans in the videos


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## Ted Kretschmann

basically it is a variation of carniolians due to the ecosytem it has adapted to. This bee is VSH and highly hygenic in its housecleaning abilities. You will see very little detritus on the bottom of the hive in a colony headed by Carpathian bees. Like Russell has said the wrong bee -primorsky bees-was selected for resistance to Varroa. There were two other good races of bees that show a lot of promise for resistance that were overlooked. They are the Carpathian bee and the Mnt Gray Caucasian bee. TK


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## heaflaw

Tell me if I have the history correct:
Varroa have lived with Apis Cerana for thousands of years in east Asia. Because of mountains, deserts and frozen tundra, Apis Melifera and Apis Cerana had not come into contact with each other for thousands of years. Russians pioneers took Melifera with them when they moved into east Asia 150 or so years ago. Varroa, of course, invaded the Melifera that had been brought to east Asia(Primorsky region). Most of the hives died of varroa, but some survived and then thrived in that area. Many years later beekeepers brought some hives from Primosky back to western Russian. The varroa that came with them invaded the Melifera hives and from there spread to the rest of Europe, Africa and the Americas reeking havoc as they spread. The reason Primorsky bees were used to breed from for resistance to varroa is because they had been in contact (and survived well) for 150 years.


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## rrussell6870

Pretty close... the original stocks were actually Ukrainian bees that were being transported in backpacks and carts through the primorsky region while the Russians escorted the Ukrainians away from Russia. The Cerana has long adapted to varroa and are virtually not effected by them... the primorsky region is just outside of the livable boundaries of Cerana, during the late summer, the bees (Cerana and Ukrainian) met during foraging... thus the jump from Cerana to Mellifera... the Mellifera would have been easily wiped out if it were not for the terrible winters and short spurts of flow... thus breaking the brood cycle over and over and allowing the Ukrainian bees to adapt to multiple swarming while killing varroa over the winter... this climate and situation was much like a treated apiary today... in the fact that varroa levels were kept in check by something other than just the bees...

The spread of varroa into Russia was mostly due to the growth of the countries agriculture further towards the primorsky region... the Russians do not keep primorsky bees and actually look at them as "junk bees" for their excessive swarming and tiny clusters.

The largest spread of varroa on Mellifera came from the Philippines. Where both species were kept side by side.

Hope this helps.


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## rrussell6870

I may should add that several strains of varroa exist across the globe... each one is an adaptation to its surroundings. Type (r), (j), and (ng) are the most noted, but current studies are showing that their adaptations are much more extensive and so many variations may actually exist.

This is important to keep in mind because as your bees are adapting, so are the mites... in time, the adaptation of the bees and mites alike may be able to move varroa from the destructor class, back to the parasite class, like has happened with Cerana... after all, it is the unbalance of both mite and Mellifera that causes them to destroy their hosts completely... not much good for their species either if all the bees are gone.

Just something to think about...


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## heaflaw

rrussell6870 said:


> This is important to keep in mind because as your bees are adapting, so are the mites... in time, the adaptation of the bees and mites alike may be able to move varroa from the destructor class, back to the parasite class, like has happened with Cerana... after all, it is the unbalance of both mite and Mellifera that causes them to destroy their hosts completely... not much good for their species either if all the bees are gone.
> 
> Just something to think about...


 2 questions:
Where did the destructor class originate? Were they with Cerana or did they adapt as they came into contact with Melifera?

If destructor moved into an area of Melifera that were never treated, would they die out quickly (along with most bees) leaving only the parasite class that would balance?


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## WI-beek

"Wi, what did you learn about the man? Pretty interesting beekeeper, huh?? TED"

I learned that its pretty hard to find much literature on someone from Russia. 

I would love to read some of his writings. He supposedly has around 60 articles published. I will be looking some more. I am sure his ideas and thoughts must be interesting. I would like to know how he made increase for one, if he reared queens, etc.


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## josethayil

I searched the internet the past few days to see pictures of the different races of bees which has been discussed in the forum.

Most of the bees such as Carpathian, Macedonian, Ukranian, Russian, Cecropian and Bulgarian all looked pretty much the same as typical Carniolan. All had large dark body with grey to silver hair covering the body. 

I guess it will be very hard to distingush them by visual examination only.


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