# Do I really need pollen patties for this spring ???



## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

I am not splitting, nor pollinating , nor queen raising this spring ?? I have good sources of early pollen here and I do plan to feed a little syrup . Do I really need to spend the extra on something like bee-pro ??


I am trying to stay on budget for 08' 



Thanks Brad


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## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

if your satisfied with the build up of your bees leading up to the first flow I would say dont bother with the patties. 

"stay on budget" what the heck is that cant say I have ever seen that in any beekeeping books


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Like riverrat said.......... No need to feed if they are in good shape and you're not looking for fast take off.

However, in light of the uncertainty on CCD and possible links to nutrition, feeding quality food makes sense. I feed pollen patties.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

I also don't want to increase the number of my hives right now. I have constraints on the the amount of hives I can maintain. The only reason I will feed patties is to build up the colonies in order to perhaps get some comb [or liquid] honey from the early flow from the fruit trees, Black locust and Black raspberry; a few others maybe. Strong, populous hives are good for comb honey. If it is a good flow and capped I would like to remove it early. It is all for fun; a hobby for me.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I've been messing with the idea of pollen patties for several years. I can't say I can get mine on the hives before the natural pollen comes out (largely willow and maple).

This year I've moved to laying pollen patties under sugar/candy boards.

I'll have to let you know.

Grant
Jackson, MO

http://www.MakingPlasticFramesWork.homestead.com
http://www.25hives.homestead.com


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

spunky said:


> I am not splitting, nor pollinating , nor queen raising this spring ?? I have good sources of early pollen here and I do plan to feed a little syrup . Do I really need to spend the extra on something like bee-pro ??



You have a good source of pollen early, you dont need the patties.
You mention your not pushing them in anyway, other than honey production, natural build up is adequate.


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## clintonbemrose (Oct 23, 2001)

Experement! Try pollen patties on 1/2 of your hives and at the end of season which hives produced the most excess honey. Be sure to post the results for others.
Clint


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Spunky,
If your going to feed sub do it in the fall.
Merry Xmas


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

spunky said:


> I am not splitting, nor pollinating , nor queen raising this spring ?? I have good sources of early pollen here and I do plan to feed a little syrup . Do I really need to spend the extra on something like bee-pro ??
> I am trying to stay on budget for 08'
> Thanks Brad



At EAS this past summer, a speaker from...I think she's a Post Doc at Cornell...Ontario. I believe her name in Heather Matilla. Something like that. Anyway, she gave a great talk on pollen substitutes. Are they necessary and economical.

I thought her science was quite good, and her logic made sense. She used brood area measurements, and colony production to judge whether PS was helpful.

She showed over a number of seasons that indeed, pollen substitute did help the colonies build up faster and produce a larger crop. But, she also found that it doesn't make a difference every year. I can't remember the figures, but it only mattered one year in a few. In those years, the difference was significant.

So, you have an early pollen flow. Except once in awhile, the season is delayed by weather, and the bees use up all their Fall stored pollen, and brood rearing stops...right when they need to be raising bees.

So her conclusion was to feed. It doesn't really cost much per colony, and you don't know which year you need it until it's too late.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Clintonbermrose and Michael make some good points. The idea is to start feeding pollen patties before they start bringing in natural pollen, by the time that natural pollen sources are available brood rearing will be in full swing and they will be able to take advantage of early nectar flows instead of using energy to build up the hive population. This will give you and opportunity to make splits that will have more time to develop and will even give you a honey crop later in the year. Or if you don’t want more hives the ones you have will give you more honey. Which will make you profit over the cost of the pollen substitute. It takes money to make money.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

spunky writes:
I am trying to stay on budget for 08' 


tecumseh chimes in:
spunky there is the old saw about being penny wise and pound foolish. so my question spunky is how will this buck or so in expense effect you output? may I assume you are trying to collect something of a honey crop?

like most (perhaps every would be a better word) systems, bees will only produce to the most limited resource (see Michael Palmer's response). the question: is pollen (protein) the most limiting source.... you could likely inspect the frames and determine via observation just how limiting pollen might be however the unknowns (once again reference Michael Palmer's response) of future event is what a pollen patties INSURES againist. so is this buck or so of insurance worth the money? for me yes it is. for you it is a question only you can answer.


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## Beezzzz (Feb 19, 2007)

tecumseh said:


> spunky writes:
> tecumseh chimes in:
> ....what a pollen patties INSURES againist. so is this buck or so of insurance worth the money? for me yes it is. for you it is a question only you can answer.


+1 

key word: insurance


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

*feeding*

So does anyone using bee-pro and 1:1 syrup know appx. how many patties one could get out of 2lb of mix ???



Staying on budget is important in any facet of life, not just beekeeping


Thanks for the replies


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*How many swarms would you like to cast?*

Last year I was cleaning out a closet and found a full bag of "Brood Builder" from way back.
As I was looking it over, trying to remember when it may have been purchaced, I noticed a rather offical looking warning label on the side:
WARNING: THE OVERUSE OF THIS PRODUCT MAY RESULT IN TOO MANY BEES!
Funny; but oh so true if you are not wanting to expand.
I fed that bag and a number of bags of Beepro going into California last spring.
I had, (have) bees coming out of my ears.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

short answer is NO. If it weren't for pollination and nuc sales I probably wouldn't feed myself. I have great spring and early summer pollen flows in my area. 

Pollination and nuc sales require it for me.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

spunky said:


> So does anyone using bee-pro and 1:1 syrup know appx. how many patties one could get out of 2lb of mix ???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For every pound of dry, you end up with about twice the poundage after mixing with sugar syrup/honey. You would have about 4 pounds, or 4 one pound patties.


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## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

spunky said:


> Staying on budget is important in any facet of life, not just beekeeping


I just want to make a small correction in your statement.

"Staying on budget is important in any facet of life, just not beekeeping" 

Just for the record, I made about $100 gross profit this year. Thanks to the West Virginia Bear Damage stamp sold to all bear hunters.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

There is a little know fact that leprechauns were in fact taken over to the New World with the settlers, and the american natives at the time called them "le tui inti ta oo minki" or in English "little green men who throw pollen sub at white man's flies" and this is how the honeybees have been surviving in the wild until the 1990's when leprechauns were actually mass killed by the beginning of global warming, but the subsequent decline of the honeybees was blamed on an innocent bystander, the varroa mites, who appeared about the same time.



Seriously, though...if you do this for a hobby and for fun, and don't care about an extra 20 lbs of honey per hive, and would rather not have to fight swarms anymore than you already do, don't bother feeding the pollen sub. Most environments provide ample pollen in the fall and spring, and unless you are moving them or disrupting them by pollination they can make use of this.

Rick


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

ScadsOBees said:


> don't bother feeding the pollen sub. Most environments provide ample pollen in the fall and spring, and unless you are moving them or disrupting them by pollination they can make use of this.


Now there is a level headed answer!!


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

"For every pound of dry, you end up with about twice the poundage after mixing with sugar syrup/honey. You would have about 4 pounds, or 4 one pound patties".- BjornBee.

Now that WOULD! be kind of expensive if you were putting on a pound per hive like some folks do;.. .. from what I have read.

I have put on about a.. 5" diameter by 1/2" thick patty, 2.5 weeks before natural pollen; [Silver maple;willows,etc., March 1st] don't know how much that weighs; 1/3 pound?? I need to check that out for sure! The 1 lb. cannister [$6.00, Mann Lake] lasted for 2 seasons for 1-3 hives. I have been getting nice comb honey from the strong hives though. Four to six dollars a 4" by 4" around here. It is for fun,..a hobby.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Oldbee,
The paper bags in the picture are 6 inch by 4 inch. The pollen sub is about 1 inch thick. They weigh exactly 1 pound.

Again, 1 pound dry mixed with sugar syrup and honey, makes about 2 pounds in patties.

I've mixed and measured a number of these... 

I'm not sure if 1/3 pound a season for a full sized hive is really making that much difference. I know I can put on a pound patty, and within the week, its gone. So it may be 2 or 3 pounds of patties for a three week preflow feeding.

Forgot the picture... 

http://s186.photobucket.com/albums/x236/BjornBee/?action=view&current=Beepictures071.jpg


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Barry said:


> Now there is a level headed answer!!


Man, I must bee a full bubble off then.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

To BjornBee: "It is for fun,........a hobby."-- Oldbee.

"I'm not sure if 1/3 pound a season for a full sized hive is really making that much difference. I know I can put on a pound patty, and within the week, it is gone. So it may be 2 or 3 pounds of patties for a three week preflow feeding".--BjornBee. I have thought about this,.but,..............................."if you do this as a hobby and for fun, and don't care about an extra 20 lbs. of honey per hive, and would rather not have to fight swarms [not sure if you can "fight them", OB.] any more than you have to, don't bother feeding the pollen sub".----ScadsOBees.

ScadsOBees: I don't know about "leprechauns" but we have "Trolls" around Mt. Horeb, Wi., a Norwegian community of hills and valleys; a GREAT honey producing area. Do leprechauns and Trolls belong to the same "family" of,.........evil-doers?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

bjorn:

Your pollen patty looks a little soupy. Is it?


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

BjornBee said:


> Oldbee,
> 
> Forgot the picture...
> 
> http://s186.photobucket.com/albums/x236/BjornBee/?action=view&current=Beepictures071.jpg


Hey, my newborn babies all made pollen sub patties !!! And to think I wasted it and threw it all away....


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

Oldbee said:


> ...and would rather not have to fight swarms [not sure if you can "fight them", OB.] any more than you have to, don't bother feeding the pollen sub".----ScadsOBees.


Oldbee, do you mean that you've never gone hand-to-hand with a swarm? When they see me doing my fujitsu moves, they take off screaming!!!

Ok, I mean fighting the preparations for swarming....how many people have to frantically cut queen cells, split, cage the queen because they know it is going to happen no matter what they do? I haven't figured it out yet....

(yeah, my Fujitsu moves...I can install a harddrive in 30 seconds flat...)


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Chef Isaac said:


> bjorn:
> 
> Your pollen patty looks a little soupy. Is it?



Chef, your like the trapper-keeper on southpark... 

The stuff in the photo just came out of the mixer a few minutes prior. It will normally set up after awhile. But I do make it on the runny side. If I'm not making patties and will be putting it directly on the hives, I'll use some cheap paper plates, loaded with as much as they can hold. Placed between the brood chambers, it works well. And they shred the paper plates when they are done.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

"Hey, my newborn babies all made pollen sub patties !! And to think I wasted it and threw it all away.."-- ScadsOBees. Now that's GROSS!! Pa-leeeeease! do not say/do that again!!


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

Oldbee said:


> "Hey, my newborn babies all made pollen sub patties !! And to think I wasted it and threw it all away.."-- ScadsOBees. Now that's GROSS!! Pa-leeeeease! do not say/do that again!!


Sorry, I'm getting loopy from the cabin fever/holidays. I promise never to mention that Bjorn's pollen sub looks like baby poop again.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

ScadsOBees said:


> Sorry, I'm getting loopy from the cabin fever/holidays. I promise never to mention that Bjorn's pollen sub looks like baby poop again.


Whoever said it wasn't?


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## Flyman (Jun 11, 2007)

Scadsobees...Interested in the sacks in your pic. Is this how you store the sub after it is made? Do you rip off the sack when you feed or let the girls do it? Only 2 to 3 weeks to spring buildup down here. Anxious to get started.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

Flyman said:


> Scadsobees...Interested in the sacks in your pic. Is this how you store the sub after it is made? Do you rip off the sack when you feed or let the girls do it? Only 2 to 3 weeks to spring buildup down here. Anxious to get started.


Sorry, not mine, but really Bjorn's pollen sub. I'd guess he waits till they set up a little then rip it off before applying , but I'd also guess that it don't matter too much.

Only 2 to 3 months to spring build up here..


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Man, I must bee a full bubble off then.


Work with me here! I'm trying to get everyone off your back so you don't accidentally slip up and give "the secret"!


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Flyman said:


> Scadsobees...Interested in the sacks in your pic. Is this how you store the sub after it is made? Do you rip off the sack when you feed or let the girls do it? Only 2 to 3 weeks to spring buildup down here. Anxious to get started.


I just rip the excess from the top of the bag. And use my tool to slice a few rips in the sides. The bees do the rest.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

"do I really need pollen patties for this spring"

In my area in certain years stored pollen is a problem. I pull 4-5 frames (maybe a whole deep) of pollen to unclog the brood nest going into winter in some years. I have had pallets of deeps full of pollen in the warehouse so all beekeeping is local. Each year is different. 

In certain years when fresh pollen is in short supply or when pollen is not available before a flow then feeding patties is advised. What I do!

My opinion based on "been there and done that"

California is not the best place to winter bees. Texas ( actually anyplace south of interstate 20 across the souteast) is better because of the late fall flows and very early spring flows. Temps are similar.

The bees brood better and build better on flows than they do feeding (and costs a heck of a lot less). However to keep brooding you need to step in when the flows stop and provide what the bees need. 

However in California winter all we saw was bees flying and eating and no pollen coming in. One day we thought we were seeing pollen coming in but when we followed the bee line the bees were bringing in a light green/yellow mineral from a green house outside pile.The grower told me what the mineral was but I forget. The bees were storing the mineral even though pollen was in the hives. Bored I guess. Kinda pretty in the frames and should have taken a picture for a bee magazine.

We asked the greenhouse owner to cover the two yard pile. In California feeding pollen patties is absolutely neccessary to even maintain bee populations. 

After reading the posts I can see many have came to the realization (we did years ago) that our current bee supply house pollen subs were lacking. The patties suggested by Keith, Bjoirn and others are an improvement over whats available. Good information.

However the original question was "do I need to feed if I don't plan to split or do pollination". I expect River rats answer answered the question. Over feed either syrup or pollen patties and you will have to do splits or your bees will be in the trees!

In California beekeepers can sell bulk bees and rid hives of excess bees after almonds . When our hives return to the Midwest they normally need feed to cluster over ( which is hard to apply in cold weather) and need split before apples. We hire every bit of help we can to work the bees before apples and make splits in cold weather ( cetainly not 70F and many times in a light rain.) Last year the bees came back late and were unloaded off semi's and went directly into apples without even popping a lid. We were allowed to work some hives and feed in apples for the first time but if we had not many would have been hanging in the apple trees . Also some populations were so full of bees that even though the apple bloom was on they might have not made it through the first few cold nights without feed.

ALL beekeeping is local. I have worked bees in Florida ( started beekeeping) Texas ( winter) and California (pollinating almonds) and each area is very different.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Barry said:


> Work with me here! I'm trying to get everyone off your back so you don't accidentally slip up and give "the secret"!


Hey, Thanks Barry, 
I'm getting to old for the underside of this bus. 

But, you have to poke fun at yourself every now and then . 


Merry Xmas
Keith


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

mr jarrett writes:
But, you have to poke fun at yourself every now and then . 

tecumseh politely ask:
oh come on keith admit it much more fun poking fun at bjorn... don't ya' think.

speaking of which, there is this little snippet..

bjorn writes:
I just rip the excess from the top of the bag. And use my tool to slice a few rips in the sides.

tecumseh replies:
oh man..... don't that hurt? (I guess an OH funny face goes here).


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

tecumseh said:


> tecumseh politely ask:
> oh come on keith admit it much more fun poking fun at bjorn... don't ya' think.


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## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

I no longer feed pollen patties to my honey producing colonies. I just feed pollen patties for queen production and nuc sales. I was feeding pollen patties to kick-start my Russian colonies in the spring. However, they do not need it. The Russian colonies explode in population during the spring and they surpass the Italian colonies.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

bjorn:

I like the paper plate idea. 

Some of my pollen patties were not consumed all the way and I decided to leave them. Bad mistake as they do mold which I didnt think they would. 

But I place the pollen patty on the top bars of the top chamber. I should have done it in the middle chamber. 

when you place your pollen patties on for the spring, do you do it inbetween the brood chambers or on top of the top chamber?


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