# Put 2nd Box with Foundationless Frames on Today - What to Expect?



## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

A couple of options. I would cut the comb out of one of the foundationless deeps and install it in a medium, placing that frame in the middle of the super. Two ways to attach the comb, one is with file folder rubber bands you get in the office section of Walmart. The one I now use, is to attach fishing line to the top of one side, in two or three places with a stapler, lay the comb in the frame and wrap the line around and attach to the other side. As long as the comb stands upright the bees will finish attaching it.
The easier option that will work most of the time is to just check every few days to see that the bees don't cross-comb, once they start drawing it out properly they usually continue all the way throughout the super. Good Luck


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The bees will have extreme problems moving up into empty space. 

You could cut comb as per Stan.vick to get some comb up there to get things started. Another option is to temporarily remove 2 frames from the bottom deep and replace with 2 of the shallower frames from the second box, position them centrally (not right next to each other) in a place where the bees will quickly draw them and hopefully put some brood in them. Then move them up to the centre of the second box and put the 2 deep frames you removed from the bottom box back.

Once the bees seem to be happily working on the 2 frames in the top box you can start spreading things. Go slowly though, don't want to overstretch the bees.


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## wallyblackburn (May 5, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Another option is to temporarily remove 2 frames from the bottom deep and replace with 2 of the shallower frames from the second box, position them centrally (not right next to each other) in a place where the bees will quickly draw them and hopefully put some brood in them. Then move them up to the centre of the second box and put the 2 deep frames you removed from the bottom box back.


Dumb question: what would I do with those 2 deep frames while I was doing this?

Thanks,
Wally


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Just keep them in the house where bees can't get at them so you won't get bees robbing any honey in them. Keep away from insecticides obviously.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

Just take one of the drawn frames out of the deep and put in the middle of the super and let it go down into the deep they can use it for a ladder. When they start drawing a frame or two in the super put the deep frame back down in the deep box. They will probably have comb drawn on the bottom of the deep frame so just cut it off and put it in a super frame with rubber bands.


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## wallyblackburn (May 5, 2015)

sterling said:


> Just take one of the drawn frames out of the deep and put in the middle of the super and let it go down into the deep they can use it for a ladder.


Doh! That is a classic "why didn't I think of that?!" It's easy to think that there is some barrier between the boxes, but there isn't!

Thanks,
Wally


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

wallyblackburn:

First, decide what type of beekeeper you are. Are you small cell or large cell? Most foundationless are small cell but it appears you started with a 5 frame LC nuc. If you want to be SC, which by posting in the Treatment Free section I believe you aspire to, you need to measure those 5 frames and see if they are LC. 5.4 mm bees draw foundationless out at 5.1 to 5.2 mm. Dee Lusby emphasizes that the cell size needs to be >4.9 mm at the core. If you want to be LC, concentrate on expanding the colony. My foundationless honey supers are 8 foundationless and one with foundation in the center. If you want to be SC, concentrate on getting rid of the LC frames so future FL frames will have smaller cells. You could drop one frame of 4.9mm foundation in the center of the broodnest every 7 to 10 days which would push those 5.4s to the side and eventually out of the hive.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

ToeOfDog said:


> wallyblackburn:
> 
> As a new beek, I'm more than a bit nervous and, frankly, overwhelmed with conflicting information. I have decided to limit myself to this forum for the sake of some hoped-for consistency.


Consistency? Here? 

I'd put some syrup on top in a slow feeder. They'll find it and that will get them into the top box. Or I'd do nothing, and still expect them to find the space they need. I take it you have starter strip on?

Above all don't fret and fiddle. Divert your worrying into making more boxes and figuring out how to get feral swarms instead. When you have colonies to spare you won't worry about losing the odd one or two who couldn't work out how to be successful bees. Good bees know what to do. Cultivate patience, and leave them be. Play them your favourite music, watch them come and go and chill Wally!

Good luck! 

Mike (UK)


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## wallyblackburn (May 5, 2015)

Thanks to all for your replies.

I think my main thrust is going to be to not "fret and fiddle" (and also to chill). Very good advice I believe - Thank You!

I will check in a couple of days: if they are starting to draw on new frames (I do have starter strip), then I will leave them alone. If they have not, I will move a frame from the bottom deep, insert it into the top medium, and let it hang down into the bottom.

Thanks again,
Wally


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## wadehump (Sep 30, 2007)

DO THIS and think. Add the new box and frames under the old. When bees swarm and move into there brand new digs where do they start there comb building at TOP or bottom. TOP and they build down to the bottom as they need space


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

wadehump said:


> DO THIS and think. Add the new box and frames under the old. When bees swarm and move into there brand new digs where do they start there comb building at TOP or bottom. TOP and they build down to the bottom as they need space


Its not that simple at all.

In stacked hives having an established brood nest area at the bottom (with appropriate'y formed comb) and storing honey above (same) works well for the bees and the beekeeper.

I wouldn't try to mess with that model, unless it was to try Kenyan Top Bar Hives (or equivalent). Now bees tend to nest near the entrance, and have their stores protected behind them. Again they form appropriate comb for each purpose. 

While combs are built downwards (and sideways) more combs are always added to the side. 

Mike (UK)


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## wadehump (Sep 30, 2007)

It is that simple. This is or was a 5 frame nuc and there is a really good flow going Right now AGAIN I STRESS NUC JUST LIKE A SWARM. I am only 90 to 100 mile south of him. He has about 4-5 weeks of good weather for comb building then it is hot and DRY. He needs the comb drawn as fast as possible for a fall flow if it happens His bees will be dead in February with no comb to store honey for overwinter. He can sort out the brood nest part next spring with live bees that had ample comb to store honey for the winter.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

wadehump said:


> It is that simple. This is or was a 5 frame nuc and there is a really good flow going Right now AGAIN I STRESS NUC JUST LIKE A SWARM. I am only 90 to 100 mile south of him. He has about 4-5 weeks of good weather for comb building then it is hot and DRY. He needs the comb drawn as fast as possible for a fall flow if it happens His bees will be dead in February with no comb to store honey for overwinter. He can sort out the brood nest part next spring with live bees that had ample comb to store honey for the winter.


Then give them space and slow feed them with thin syrup, and don't stop. They'll do the rest. Stay calm and let them get on with their job without any further interference. 

Mike (UK)


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## Rebel Rider (Mar 26, 2015)

Good discussion. I would like to throw one more variable in. (I too am going for FL) I installed nucs, added 3 SC deeps to brood box, and my intention is to (when time is right) to add a super of FL. I may have an option of wiring some wax foundation on a few frames and thought I could use them for a ladder into the supers. Or cut some PF120 down to fit some med frames. The latter of these 2 options I would not have to borrow any equipment and leave that learning curve for another time. Being that this forum has such a high degree of consistency in opinions I thought too that I would ask here. I don't mean to steal the thread but I thought I would offer another variable. Thanks, I do appreciate these forums greatly.

RR


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## wallyblackburn (May 5, 2015)

Resisting the urge to look inside until tomorrow. But, watching from the outside I notice 2 things:

1 - This thing looks like a bee-spitting machine. They are coming and going like crazy.
2 - They are using the top vent as an entrance (so they have to at least go through the top box)

I am going to look inside tomorrow.

Thanks,
Wally


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## wallyblackburn (May 5, 2015)

There were bees in top box and frames were propolised in place - but not a speck of comb. The bottom frames I had put in were built wall-to-wall.

I went ahead and put 2 deep frames in top box sticking down into bottom.

Think I'll try adding box to bottom on my second hive.

Thanks,
Wally


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

wallyblackburn said:


> Think I'll try adding box to bottom on my second hive.


Or, just go one size for all, like me. Different sizes is a nightmare as you are discovering very early.


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## wallyblackburn (May 5, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Or, just go one size for all, like me. Different sizes is a nightmare as you are discovering very early.


Yes, my goal is to work towards all medium 8-frame boxes. Problem is, I can only find deep nucs... Well, that is my longer-term goal. My first goal is to still have live bees next spring!

Thanks,
Wally


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

8 frame mediums are a pretty small box. In volume, only around 1/2 a 10 frame deep.

10 frame deeps are not as fully evil to work as some make out, and the bees quite like them. I'm in my 60's but still manage.

Here's an idea, since you have a mix of sizes in both hives and probably will not want to throw gear away, how about swapping things around so one hive is all deeps, and one is all mediums? You can then manipulate combs as needed without problems, plus be able to compare which hive is more productive.


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## wallyblackburn (May 5, 2015)

I shouldn't have said "all medium 8-frame boxes". What I was thinking was that, once I have some medium frames going and have frames to swap, etc., the deeps would pretty much stay on all the time and belong exclusively to the bees.

Is that doable, or is my newbeeness showing?

Thanks,
Wally


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes very doable and what a lot of people do, even some commercial beekeepers.

Not for me though, I like total interchangeability, for me, deeps only. But it's one of those things where you do what suits you best, for your own reasons.


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## wallyblackburn (May 5, 2015)

wallyblackburn said:


> There were bees in top box and frames were propolised in place - but not a speck of comb. The bottom frames I had put in were built wall-to-wall.
> I went ahead and put 2 deep frames in top box sticking down into bottom.


They started drawing comb in the top box medium frames. And, of course, they completely filled the empty space at the bottom of the 2 deeps that were hanging into the bottom box! Kind of a mess. I removed all of that and have rubber banded some of it in place on a couple of medium frames. I'll replace a couple of the frames they haven't started yet with it.

Soooo, of course I have some questions (and some observations):

Both of these have larva in about 10-15% of the cells. Makes sense because I had the hanging right down into the bottom deep in the middle of the brood nest. Am I OK putting this into the upper box? Will that draw them up there to start putting brood in it?

Now for the observation (and more questions): I was curious what size cells they were building on this foundationless since the nuc came on frames with foundation (no idea what size). Well, some of the cells measure about 4.9ish...and some are like 6.4mm! I measured from inside one flat side to inside another with Mitutoyo digital calipers and a magnifier. I'm a machinist, so I am somewhat competent measuring things like this. There were larva in some of the small ones and the big ones too.

I was only able to salvage some of the small stuff (pic attached). Do I need to get it in there ASAP? I was going to wait until tomorrow, if possible.

Thanks,
Wally


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

wallyblackburn said:


> They started drawing comb in the top box medium frames. And, of course, they completely filled the empty space at the bottom of the 2 deeps that were hanging into the bottom box! Kind of a mess. I removed all of that and have rubber banded some of it in place on a couple of medium frames. I'll replace a couple of the frames they haven't started yet with it.
> 
> Soooo, of course I have some questions (and some observations):
> 
> Both of these have larva in about 10-15% of the cells. Makes sense because I had the hanging right down into the bottom deep in the middle of the brood nest. Am I OK putting this into the upper box? Will that draw them up there to start putting brood in it?


Hi Wally,

I saw this in the thread and thought I'd try it. Exactly the same result! Yes, putting them above will encourage more laying alongside! Of 3 tried I took one pair of small laid hanging combs out altogether, strapped a large hanging comb in a new brood frame and substituted for an empty edge frame, and got away with the 3rd). 

I think slow feeding light syrup, and including a couple of drawn frames, pinched if necessary from elsewhere is the way to go. Or try taking them out in 2 days instead of 4, but will you get round in time? 
[/QUOTE]

Mike (UK)


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

wallyblackburn said:


> They started drawing comb in the top box medium frames. And, of course, they completely filled the empty space at the bottom of the 2 deeps that were hanging into the bottom box! Kind of a mess. I removed all of that and have rubber banded some of it in place on a couple of medium frames. I'll replace a couple of the frames they haven't started yet with it.
> 
> Soooo, of course I have some questions (and some observations):
> 
> ...


Wally,
Browsing the TF forum and came across this Thread. I was wondering how you made out and if they filled out the second FL box? Were you able to ad a third?
AA


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