# replacing inner cover with a fabric or plastic



## bobinmaine (Nov 25, 2018)

Looking for suggestions, I want to replace customary inner cover with something like a canvas or plastic.
Any suggestions of what and where to purchase
Thanks


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I used a propolis trap last year on one of my hives instead of an inner cover.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

This year, I am using the silver bubble wrap Reflectex as an inner cover. Sam Comfort showed this at one of the national bee meetings I attended last year. Looks promising.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ruthiesbees said:


> This year, I am using the silver bubble wrap Reflectex as an inner cover. Sam Comfort showed this at one of the national bee meetings I attended last year. Looks promising.


:thumbsup::thumbsup: I find it works very well. I also use this for hive wraps and blocking off honey supers when doing OA vaporizations.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Four mill plastic sheeting works, but it is awkward to handle in a wind. The sheeting with an edge taped to foam insulation board is easier to handle. You might try checking with awning or boat cover/top manufacturing shops for canvas materials.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

ruthiesbees said:


> This year, I am using the silver bubble wrap Reflectex as an inner cover. Sam Comfort showed this at one of the national bee meetings I attended last year. Looks promising.


im trying the same this year with a few hives.
Going to try a few single brood chamber hives too...keeps the hobby fun changing things up even if they are a failure.


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## rick54 (May 8, 2014)

Duck Canvas No. 8 https://www.chicagocanvas.com/product/8-natural-canvas-18oz/


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## kramerbryan (Oct 30, 2013)

I cut old chicken feed bags to fit, or use old political sign. Both free and you can cut a hole in them for a feeder then add an empty box on top.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

The Honeybee Research Center at UoG uses #8 Duck canvas. Cut it just barely larger than the outside of the box. 

https://youtu.be/Emlvx53iOZ4?list=PLhUDH9LkxRdODCpXPVgtKaBOEczJXY1Gs&t=149

I have been experimenting with a plexiglass inner cover on one hive after seeing them used on European hives on YouTube.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

rick54 said:


> Duck Canvas No. 8 https://www.chicagocanvas.com/product/8-natural-canvas-18oz/


so is this $10 for 1 yard by 6 feet? Im trying to figure out how much to order.
If those measurements are right then you could get 6 inner covers for $10 and thats super cheap!


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

What are the advantages to using fabric? I have seen it used (youtube) and my initial reaction was that it would be a pain to deal with. J


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## Hobo (Mar 4, 2014)

Big Duck Canvas is located near me. I dropped by their facility and picked up three yards of #8 Duck canvas to experiment with. 

https://www.bigduckcanvas.com/numbe...cotton-canvas-duck-18-oz-by-the-yard-natural/

$8.15/yd plus tax. 60" wide. (The usable width is actually 61".) So I can get three across cutting the inner covers a tad longer than the box dimension. 

My first use for this canvas inner cover will be on a double 4-frame nuc. The width of the two boxes is approximately the same as a 10-frame box so my 10-frame telescoping cover works with this set-up. I am hoping the canvas will make a good seal at the tops of the boxes and cut off communication between the two boxes.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

aran said:


> so is this $10 for 1 yard by 6 feet? Im trying to figure out how much to order.
> If those measurements are right then you could get 6 inner covers for $10 and thats super cheap!


Hobby Lobby and Walmart also have duck canvas - probably also your local fabric store.


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

It would make upper entrances impossible.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

ericweller said:


> It would make upper entrances impossible.


You could add a shim with a upper entrance. I have some 3/4" shims (for patties, ect) and it would be easy to add an entrance to one. 

I have 1/8" hardware cloth and a chunk on canvas on the top of my hives. This is what I have on the bottom of my quilt boxes, and the bees have sort of been covering it with propolis, but it has survived.


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## fatshark (Jun 17, 2009)

I use 250 micron poly sheet on my bait hives and mini-nucs ... and when I run out of rigid ones. Works well and costs about $0.30 each.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I've used old polytunnel (hoop tunnel ?) polythene sheeting in the past, and haven't been over-impressed with it - but - my criticisms have been that, a) it's got a mind of it's own in even a gentle breeze (however, this problem does cure itself after some propolis has been attached; and b) that it's not obvious how to install an overhead (inverted-jar) feeder without risking the meniscus coming into contact with the frame top-bars and thus causing a flood.

However, the last potential problem can very easily be cured by spacing the plastic away from the top bars, as seen in the following video (posted by Greg) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rlq3n2cJKBk such that an inverted jar feeder could easily be supported from underneath by a pair of thin battens.

Although I'm quite content to use rigid boards, having now seen the use of those spacing battens, if I should ever have the need for a quick 'fix', I'll now very happily reach for a roll of plastic sheet. 
LJ


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

ericweller said:


> It would make upper entrances impossible.


simply drill a hole in the top brood box.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

fatshark said:


> I use 250 micron poly sheet on my bait hives and mini-nucs ... and when I run out of rigid ones. Works well and costs about $0.30 each.


i couldnt find this on ebay.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JConnolly said:


> The Honeybee Research Center at UoG uses #8 Duck canvas. Cut it just barely larger than the outside of the box.
> 
> https://youtu.be/Emlvx53iOZ4?list=PLhUDH9LkxRdODCpXPVgtKaBOEczJXY1Gs&t=149


Thanks for this. I have seen a number of their videos but not this one. I wondered about the material as well. 
PS For those wondering about upper entrances….watch the first couple of minute of the video.


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## bobinmaine (Nov 25, 2018)

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I will go with silver bubble wrap Reflectex. 
Thanks again


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You can even use cloth, but the problem is that propolis sticks to it too well. The plastic burlap feed sacks work well and don't get glued down too well.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is a good video of classic ways now fabric/plactics are used.

As you watch along you can see how the keeper controls the opening by using two pieces of heavy cloths at once - one is being pull back gradually and the second is being rolled forward gradually.
He keeps northern AMMs in Ural region of Russia and those bees are touchy - you don't want start cracking the boxes open and randomly tossing the boxes around - bad idea.
You want to be able to close them up immediately at the first warning and heavy fabric works well for that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhhJntpjqDE

Here is another video of his (jump directly to ~7:00 to watch how he works the fabric covers to control the hive opening):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uECgmQcmMh0

As for me, fabric is a good way to control feisty bees in a way similar to interlocking TBs (without keeping bees in TBH).
One benefit of a heavy fabric - it stays down better in a windy day; I hate plastics that way (they fly away at the worst possible moment).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Michael Bush said:


> You can even use cloth, but the problem is that propolis sticks to it too well. The plastic burlap feed sacks work well and don't get glued down too well.


As LJ noted, 3-4 small sticks/battens put across the top bars just under the fabric - the problem mostly solved (IF you have or care of the problem at all).
This is a non-issue in summer at all as propolis is very pliable and you easily pill off the fabric as needed.
You may only need those battens during cold season since propolis hardens - beeks commonly use them for overwintering.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

And for a bonus - watch how to very efficiently harvest propolis from a fabric cover:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIZk20Gc7Zc


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Still wondering what the advantage of a cloth cover is. Anyone? Seems like a pain to deal with, but always looking to learn. J


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## ed3 (Sep 21, 2016)

I think it may depend on where in the country you live. I went to a workshop and the presenter was from Canada and that was the method they used. When I (Kansas City area) used the canvas in place of the standard inter-cover; it provided a place for the small hive beetles to evade my bees and I wound up removing the canvas. Found out later that they don't have small hive beetles as a pest.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I use a piece of typar or feed bag over my top bars to keep my migratory lid from becoming glues on. In the winter that cover floats over my mountain camp feed to keep the bees from clustering in the feeder rim. They live longer down in the frames per Randy Oliver.


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## tckmet (Jul 16, 2017)

bobinmaine said:


> Looking for suggestions, I want to replace customary inner cover with something like a canvas or plastic.
> Any suggestions of what and where to purchase
> Thanks


These guys use canvas. 
https://youtu.be/BnjjULpVsDM


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## ed3 (Sep 21, 2016)

tckmet
This was the presenter at the conference I talked about, if memory serves me correctly they don't have small hive beetles to contend with. They have great training videos. I love their website and would recommend it to anyone wanting to learn more about beekeeping.


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

In the early 1980's one could buy (and still can) a white plastic inner cover. Bought 35 of them. Best investment in bee equipment I ever made. Still have them and use them on my now limited # of hives. OMTCW


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## fatshark (Jun 17, 2009)

Here it is on ebay.com ... and if that link doesn't work search for HEAVY DUTY CLEAR POLYTHENE 1000 GAUGE


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

ed3 said:


> I think it may depend on where in the country you live. I went to a workshop and the presenter was from Canada and that was the method they used. When I (Kansas City area) used the canvas in place of the standard inter-cover; it provided a place for the small hive beetles to evade my bees and I wound up removing the canvas. Found out later that they don't have small hive beetles as a pest.


You must have it folded or something, because I use heavy canvas and the SHB's cannot penetrate it, and I live in central Arkansas and we have plenty of the critters. Also, once it is propolised it is a very effective cover.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fivej said:


> Still wondering what the advantage of a cloth cover is. Anyone? Seems like a pain to deal with, but always looking to learn. J


OK, outside of benefits stated already above and below, here is one thing I see no one talking about .

*Pyramid nest organization.*

Just look up info about Vitvitsky hive and the theory behind it.
https://warre.biobees.com/vitvitsky.htm
Here is a modern version of it: http://www.rusuley.ru/glavnaya/bezvoshinnie-uli/улей-витвицкого-detail
Obvious issue with Vitvitsky design - it is totally non-standard and a hassle because of it.


But - the soft plastic/fabric cover allows for the implementation of the same idea - easily.
All using standard hive bodies and standard frames.
Like so:








That Russian beek's video (LJ and myself referred to) demonstrates pretty much the same - the pyramid nest organization for early crop harvest in the conditions of cold and unstable spring.


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## nickhefferan (Jul 26, 2018)

Fivej said:


> Still wondering what the advantage of a cloth cover is. Anyone? Seems like a pain to deal with, but always looking to learn. J


Adding to what GregV said, another simple reason a cloth cover is nice, you can work part of the hive while leaving the rest covered and undisturbed.
You can peek directly in the center of the box just by peeling up a side with minimal disturbance.

Super simple to use. Easy to replace/make. Cheap. Those reasons alone are advantage enough.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Cheap, I get. If I were buying a lot of hives I would consider it for sure. But once you have inner covers, they last forever. As for the other advantages, the advantages of an inner cover with a Langstroth outweigh them for me. If you have a testy hive, you can always put a cloth cover over it and expose a few frames at a time. I actually tried this method my first year but it was unwieldy for me. Towels and a feed bag picked up dirt and mulch from the ground, and the light feed bags would blow off the hive. I do live in a location where it is frequently windy, and I like working the hives on a windy day. When windy, they seem to ignore me. Now I use a cardboard nuc box as a "quiet box" to place frames during an inspection as suggested by Enjambres. If I need to leave a box open for a bit, I place a political sign on it with a stone to hold it down. J


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fivej said:


> Cheap, I get. ... J


In short, you don't need fabric/plastic as disagreeable to your methods and needs.
Not a problem.
Everyone just gets back to their own toys.


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## Alex Madsen (Aug 26, 2018)

doesn't the political sign just get them more agitated? :lookout:


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Alex Madsen said:


> doesn't the political sign just get them more agitated? :lookout:


No, they wrote Honeybee Democracy and are cool with differing opinions as long as it advances the common good. J


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## nickhefferan (Jul 26, 2018)

Alex Madsen said:


> doesn't the political sign just get them more agitated?


They start arguing amongst themselves and forget you're there. It's genius really.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

i ordered 3 yards of the #8 duck cloth. Im at mid 20s for hive numbers and plan to double that number this year ( although a bunch will be nucs). THIs is too cheap an idea not to try.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

In the UoG video, doesn't he say a top entrance is necessary because the cloth blocks airflow?

Alex


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

OOPs


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

AHudd said:


> In the UoG video, doesn't he say a top entrance is necessary because the cloth blocks airflow?
> 
> Alex


i drill my brood boxes for OAV treatment with a provap/johnos easy vap anyways so the bees have plenty of ways out if they choose to use those drill holes as "entrances"


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## patncin (Jun 10, 2016)

I have been using feed bags but they are getting hard to find now I use painters cloth I buy at menards or Lowes I think its #8 duck cloth the only reason I see for an inter cover is to keep the top cover from sticking to the frames


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## Lou from Export (Aug 16, 2015)

bobinmaine said:


> Looking for suggestions, I want to replace customary inner cover with something like a canvas or plastic.
> Any suggestions of what and where to purchase
> Thanks



My Question is ---- WHY ?


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

Lou from Export said:


> My Question is ---- WHY ?


because its cheap.
I make inner covers from plywood and scrap 1x4 that i rip down. You are still looking at $5-6 each for even home made wooden inner covers not to mention the time to make them.
Buying wooden inner covers is more expensive again.


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## Lou from Export (Aug 16, 2015)

aran said:


> because its cheap.
> I make inner covers from plywood and scrap 1x4 that i rip down. You are still looking at $5-6 each for even home made wooden inner covers not to mention the time to make them.
> Buying wooden inner covers is more expensive again.


Ill spend the time or money !


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

'Soft' Crown Boards (inner covers) won't ever warp - unlike plywood. Also, soft material can be peeled back gradually prior to an inspection, unlike rigid covers which frequently cause a disturbing jolt.

By good fortune, a few years ago I managed to source a 'recycled' synthetic board material, which won't warp - but if purchased new it's uber-expensive. If I hadn't acquired it for such little money, then I'd be using thick polythene sheeting myself (which costs me nothing, as I have rolls of the stuff squirreled away - ex poly-tunnels (hoop tunnels)). 
LJ


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

Lou from Export said:


> Ill spend the time or money !


you may revisit that idea when or if you end up with a few dozen hives.


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## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

Lou from Export said:


> My Question is ---- WHY ?


Because small hive beetles are a real problem for some folks... and inner covers are a safe harbor for them.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

AHudd said:


> In the UoG video, doesn't he say a top entrance is necessary because the cloth blocks airflow?
> 
> Alex


that is an additional feature that doesnt hurt. the primary reason for drilling the hole is to still allow cleansing flights when snow is covering the bottom entrance.


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## VickyLynn (Jun 20, 2011)

little_john said:


> 'Soft' Crown Boards (inner covers) won't ever warp - unlike plywood. Also, soft material can be peeled back gradually prior to an inspection, unlike rigid covers which frequently cause a disturbing jolt.
> 
> By good fortune, a few years ago I managed to source a 'recycled' synthetic board material, which won't warp - but if purchased new it's uber-expensive. If I hadn't acquired it for such little money, then I'd be using thick polythene sheeting myself (which costs me nothing, as I have rolls of the stuff squirreled away - ex poly-tunnels (hoop tunnels)).
> LJ


I have lots of thick greenhouse plastic that I could use, but I am concerned that it will trap moisture. It is not breathable. How do you manage the problem of moisture that should escape?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

VickyLynn said:


> I have lots of thick greenhouse plastic that I could use, but I am concerned that it will trap moisture. It is not breathable. How do you manage the problem of moisture that should escape?


Moisture is a non-issue during warm season. 
Just not. 
In fact, it is beneficial.
Bees manage it fine when needed.

During the cold season - you fold one corner open just a little (or create a narrow long opening along the back wall, to allow the partial water vapor pressure to equalize). Or you have a top entrance/bottom entrance setup so to have a small chimney effect going.
In short - still a non-issue and very easy to manage.

It may only be an issue if you create a fully non-permeable, plastic ceiling in winter.
This is IF no other way for the water vapors to exhaust/dissipate exists AND insulation (especially the top) is poor.

PS: this being said I truly lost one unit to the moisture this winter;
but, I don't even run plastic in winter (though considering it); 
my issue was - some bulk water was entering the hive somehow and was virtually puddling on the floor - so that was the moisture source; I needed to just re-hive them or make a better make-shift roof - but I failed to do so;
I am yet to understand why people have all these supposed "moisture issues", I just don't.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Lou from Export said:


> My Question is ---- WHY ?


How about - because not everyone runs standard Lang equipment *as designed* by the conventional Lang sellers as *they *think is best for you.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

VickyLynn said:


> I have lots of thick greenhouse plastic that I could use, but I am concerned that it will trap moisture. *It is not breathable. *


Quite right - and neither are breathable materials after the bees have coated them with propolis. 



> How do you manage the problem of moisture that should escape?


By using bottom entrances and Open Mesh Floors (SBB's) - the moisture falls out of the bottom of the hive. I subscribe to a method which Roger Delon calls the 'ClimateStable Hive' - "sealed tops and open bottoms". It's pretty-much the _de facto_ method of keeping bees in the UK, but not favoured much in the US. 
LJ


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## Pchristu (Aug 10, 2016)

JConnolly said:


> The Honeybee Research Center at UoG uses #8 Duck canvas. Cut it just barely larger than the outside of the box.
> 
> https://youtu.be/Emlvx53iOZ4?list=PLhUDH9LkxRdODCpXPVgtKaBOEczJXY1Gs&t=149
> 
> I have been experimenting with a plexiglass inner cover on one hive after seeing them used on European hives on YouTube.


#8duck canvas. Can purchase at chicagocanvas.com in 6 foot width. I bought 3 foot length, cut to size, melted paraffin on stovetop, heated canvas in oven to about 250F, brushed each til completely paraffin-impregnated using a foam brush. I left a little tag of extra canvas at one corner; gives a easy point to start elevating it by hand, without needing to get under it with a hive tool. The paraffin stiffens the cover quite a bit, so it doesn’t flop and fold up. Very easy to prepare and use.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I have 8 frame hives and guineas, so I use the bird seed bags from Ace 20 lb bird seed, so you get 2 per bag when cut. Works real fine with a flat migratory type of cover. However I find that small hive beetles gather on the top of the frames where the bees cant get at them, I also find that when it is hot you require some top ventilation.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Lou from Export said:


> My Question is ---- WHY ?


For the best reason possible: everyone on the internet is doing it.


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## thesecurityeagle (Jun 21, 2016)

I used burlap in a pinch this year it worked great. I was very pleased! PS: they will chew a hole in it though.


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## hankstump (Jul 30, 2014)

Burlap works great. It also offers a some hive ventilation (not too much). Indeed the original idea was that you could peel back one side and not disturb the entire colony. 
One benefit, is that if you use fabric for a season, it gets all filled with propolis and bee smells. Its a fantastic addition to your swarm traps to get all the right scents into the box. Cycle them out in the spring to get the fresh scent in the swarm traps and new cloth on the hive when they can tolerate a bit more air movement in the hive. By winter, they should have less air flow, but still offer a bit of absorbency to reduce condensation dripping into the hive. 

Phil in Fremont


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

so the number 8 Duck cloth arrived.
I have made a couple inner covers with it and it works a charm. They propolize it down but its easy to peel back.
I see no downsides so far.


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