# Does this look normal?



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Looks bad for European Foulbrood. Do a search for symptoms and better pictures. notice discolored greyish twisted larva and some slumped in cell bottoms.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Looks like PMS to me. Maybe EFB too.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

No, that's not normal. Difficult to say what OP has, looks like that queen is garbage.

What is your mite count OP - did you do a mite wash - could you tell us how many mites / 300 bees?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

@crofter that's an extremely mild case of EFB in your photos ....

see below a more obvious case of EFB, which isn't really what OPs photos look like.

IDK what OP has - I would love to know what the mite wash is, could be PMS>


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

*This* is European foulbrood:


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

That IS what PMS looks like. I just can't tell if efb has been triggered due to weakening. I promise that hive is loaded with viruses.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

username00101 said:


> @crofter that's an extremely mild case of EFB in your photos ....
> 
> see below a more obvious case of EFB, which isn't really what OPs photos look like.
> 
> IDK what OP has - I would love to know what the mite wash is, could be PMS>


I wish I had caught it when it was an even milder case. Picture below is some of the five colony's more advanced frames!

When EFB has been going on for a while you are likely to find a very low mite level: If most larvae are not getting to, or beyond capping stage mite reproduction and numbers quickly go negative.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Crofter that is a sad sight to see for sure, one of those evil necessities for sure.

Sorry for the loss.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

G3farms said:


> Crofter that is a sad sight to see for sure, one of those evil necessities for sure.
> 
> Sorry for the loss.


In disgust I euthanized and burned several hives, boxes and all, until I confirmed it was not American foulbrood. At that time the antibiotics were still available without the Veterinary prescription and I dosed them with Oxy Tet. I sealed up 5 hives and put them in shed for several years but eventually buried the frames and scorched the boxes. I did not have it return in the 4 years since. Others have not been so lucky!

If you catch it at the first sign of discolored milk surrounding larvae and only a few twisted "bellyache" larvae before they start to slump into cell bottoms, then it is much easier to stop.
Once it starts to jump colony to colony it is a tough proposition.

I hope this is not what the OP is dealing with but in any case, know the symptoms and automatically check for them any time you have your eyes on a frame of brood. It takes only a second to spot when you are familiar with it.

Somebody recently, maybe grozzie2, that looking at the larva and how well it is being fed, is a forecast of how healthy your colony will be 2 weeks from now. Capping patterns are good to look at but larval feeding is a fair jump ahead in value.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

EFB chalkbrood, etc etc, can be cured out of a frame with ozone. No need to burn anything.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

username00101 said:


> EFB chalkbrood, etc etc, can be cured out of a frame with ozone. No need to burn anything.


References?


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

ozone will kill AFB spores.............hhhmmmm.
I'm with Crofter on this one, references?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Well the study did show it kills AFB, but I would definitely not use ozone to cure AFB out of frames or boxes.

EFB chalkbrood, pesticides, etc etc are all very likely cured by ozone.

Still remains to be known if ozone damages the wax comb.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Potential of Ozone as a Fumigant to Control Pests in Honey Bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Hives


Abstract. Ozone is a powerful oxidant capable of killing insects and microorganisms, and eliminating odors, taste, and color. Thus, it could be useful as a fumi




academic.oup.com







> Commercial operations clearly need safe and inexpensive fumigants that can treat pallets of supers, yet leave no residue. Dr. Pernal found that isopropyl alcohol, Apilife VAR, paradichlorobenzene, and drugstore 3% hydrogen peroxide were fairly effective (but that there was variation in susceptibility between strains of spores). I’ve spoken with Dr. Rosalyn James about her experiments with using ozone as a sterilant against other pathogens, and am myself currently working on setting up a small trial to test its efficacy against nosema spores.


His footnotes give another reference:


> Currier, IP, et al (2001) _Deactivation of clumped and dirty spores of Bacillus globigii_. Ozone Science & Engineering 23:285-294.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think the statement made in post # 11 a bit forward thinkin as far as being practical or presently available to beekeepers. Did you note the price? I think 3 days exposure may have been needed to deactivate AFB. It was not determined what its effect was on nosema.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

crofter said:


> I think the statement made in post # 11 a bit forward thinkin as far as being practical or presently available to beekeepers. Did you note the price? I think 3 days exposure may have been needed to deactivate AFB. It was not determined what its effect was on nosema.


The understatement of the week is calling it a bit forward thinking! You are very generous.
Forget it as a treatment option.

The study claims clearly: " P. larvae was not very susceptible to ozone."
Effective treatment required a high ozone concentration, 3 days exposure, combined with 50C temperatures and >75% relative humidity. 

How about that price tag, in 2010 dollars no less?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

EFB and PMS. Not normal and not healthy.
A doomed colony and infected equipment is the result.

May want to call in a experienced beekeeper or state inspector to help you get past this issue.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

crofter said:


> I think the statement made in post # 11 a bit forward thinkin as far as being practical or presently available to beekeepers. Did you note the price? I think 3 days exposure may have been needed to deactivate AFB. It was not determined what its effect was on nosema.


To further muddy this thread. This 2001 Australian report 01-051.pdf states that 10 minutes in wax at 150° to 160º Celsius will "render all AFB spores non-viable". Does not seem to mention any other disease or bee pest.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I wonder if it makes it "non-viable" or just encapsulates it?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

We are jumping the gun until the Original poster gets confirmation. Kits are available from bee suppliers for testing EFB. Pretty certain it is not AFB. In the latter, the larvae dies after capping. In EFB only a small percentage survive to capping time and die after. Usually day 2 or three day from hatch. EFB killed and uncapped larvae / pupae often look a bit like chalkbrood mummies. Many of the signs we see are the result of a variety of opportunistic secondary bacterial growth so not always the same appearance or smell from one incident to another.

From original photos eggs are being layed on top of uncleaned scale in cells so nurse bees are not keeping up with hauling out the corpses.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

G3farms said:


> I wonder if it makes it "non-viable" or just encapsulates it?


"During the process, spores of American foulbrood are either:
• killed (made non-viable) by exposure to heat
• encapsulated within the wax."

So possibly some of both. Wonder about wax moth larvae releasing them?


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Looks to me like they are just starving to death.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

That was also my first thought, starving. You can see a couple of hatched eggs that are laying in the bottom of a dry cell, not a drop of royal jelly.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

G3farms said:


> That was also my first thought, starving. You can see a couple of hatched eggs that are laying in the bottom of a dry cell, not a drop of royal jelly.





ifixoldhouses said:


> Looks to me like they are just starving to death.


Just quibbling here; agree with starving but that is a symptom of, not cause of the major visual symptoms. New nurse bees are not coming on line so all house keeping duties are getting neglected; dragging out the dead larvae, polishing and preparing for new eggs, making royal jelly and feeding larvae, cleaning out uncapped pupae etc. Death spiral! After a period of time, no more wax making bees and then fewer foragers and guard bees, robbing and on to other colonies.


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

I notice that there is hardly any honey in the hive. There is a lot of pollen.

I dont even think there are enough bees to do the mite wash.

Do I need about 300 bees to do the test?

I have another hive also. The population seems lower on that hive as well.

Whats my next step?

The mite wash?

What test is recommended.

Im so lost these are my first two hives.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Look up test kits for EFB

EFB (European Foulbrood) Test Kit

That colony is on its way out if it indeed is EFB It tends to jump to other colonies so the other one is suspect. Dont do any combining!!! until you confirm. Do a search here on EFB specifying Squarepeg, and Enjambres. Long threads about their experience with EFB. 

There may be another beekeeper near that is experienced at ID ing. Be careful of transmitting it to other locations on boots, clothing, hive tools etc. Bee inspector might be available. Here in Ontario, I would not hold my breath. They will get energised much quicker if American Foulbrood is suspected as I believe it is a compulsory notification disease. Here AFB is, but EFB, not.

Quick things to look for is larvae that is not pearly white and discolored feed (yellowish in my case but that could vary).


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

The hives are about 5 feets apart in the same location. What has to happen with the clothing and hive tools? So if its EFB or AFB the colony has to be destroyed?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Not necessary to destroy for EFB but the comb is considered infected. Honey for 7 months. Beebread under honey for near two years. Hive tools I scrape and give a good scorching with my propane torch. Many people have been sorry they took the lesser methods. I can understand if you have hundreds of colonies but with only two (if EFB) all you would need to sacrifice is the frames. Boxes can be scorched. As for the bees if it is EFB and the other colony dwindling as well, the bees are already toast.

Normal clothes washing disinfects for EFB. Just saying that if you go visiting be cautious of spreading anything until you confirm what your problem. If someone comes to give a second pair of eyes make sure they know what the possibilities are.


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

So what about the bees? Just let them die out? I noticed not a lot of brood in either colony and little honey as well.
I feel like such a failure. And I feel sorry for my bees too.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Not much use saying dont feel bad, but with EFB (or AFB), you cant see it coming. Once you have been bit it is easier to spot the first signs and easier to turn around. I probably could have halted it when it was in one 5 frame nuc but stupidly combine colonies that were faltering. The worst thing I could have done. Eventually lost 6.

I sure hope this is not what you have. Strongly recommend searching those leads I gave you. There is links within those threads to research in Britain on variants and different reactions to treatments.

If in doubt or when confirmed, do everything to keep them from getting robbed out and contaminating other beekeepers.


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

Thank you Frank. In order to keep them from contaminating other beekeepers they will have to be destroyed right? I will search out those threads/


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

evangeline said:


> Thank you Frank. In order to keep them from contaminating other beekeepers they will have to be destroyed right? I will search out those threads/


If it is confirmed, it will have been the EFB that destroyed them. If the bacteria has been seriously limiting the production of replacement young bees, the average age of existing bees will put them close to the five week normal lifespan. There is a critical mass of bees needed to turn a colony back from the brink. In the spring or early summer the bees can be shaken onto new foundation and they can draw it out and start new population. This time of year and aged bees, it is not possible to do a comb change.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

With only 300 bees remaining,, it's a terminal situation... 

While they are still alive - Perform a wash of 100 bees - that should at least indicate the extent of the issue.

Do a youtube search on mite washes.

If no mites, then perhaps it is EFB, but first do a mite wash. Then let us know the results.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

OP - Do not destroy the equipment. At least not until your local inspector takes a look.

Only AFB requires the equipment to be destroyed. If in doubt, Call your local bee inspector and take his/her advice and official recommendation.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I am not advising the OP to do this, but I believe I read somewhere that they started destroying hives with confirmed EFB in the EU or Uk and it has nearly been eradicated in a couple years. Is this the case? 
If I recall correctly, Enjambres had her equipment irradiated to eliminate EFB. It was not cheap or something most of us can do. J


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

I'd err on the side of caution and destroy. I would not want to affect any other bees in the area. Tests are arriving tomorrow.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

It may be EFB (test kit will tell).

My money is on a mite situation that @evangeline hasn't told us about yet....


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

username00101 said:


> It may be EFB (test kit will tell).
> 
> My money is on a mite situation that @evangeline hasn't told us about yet....


"Hasn't told us about yet" implies that I know about a mite situation. If you read my previous posts you'd see that I asked if a mite test should be done. Thanks for chiming in!


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

I foolishly bought the AFB test instead of the EFB test. I used that test and it was negative. I have an EFB test arriving Monday. When I went in I saw barely any larva to test. I saw barely any brood and no eggs. I did see the queen though. 
Does it make sense to feed them? There is some honey and nectar in the hive. I feel bad just waiting and doing nothing.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

evangeline said:


> I foolishly bought the AFB test instead of the EFB test. I used that test and it was negative. I have an EFB test arriving Monday. When I went in I saw barely any larva to test. I saw barely any brood and no eggs. I did see the queen though.
> Does it make sense to feed them? There is some honey and nectar in the hive. I feel bad just waiting and doing nothing.


Barring the abnormal situation in the colony, the queen would be shutting down anyway. With too few bees to do a mite wash it I would say the situation is beyond grim. How many bees are in it and are you seeing similar symptoms there?


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

This is the same colony that I originally was asking about. I really cant guess on how many bees are there. 

I could say that the whole hive is only one deep. The super I added months ago is just empty except for a frame that I put in from another colony, my bigger hive which was doing better.

All I know is there are a lot less than the last time I checked three days ago.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I really hate to say it also but sounds like they are doomed.
It is hard to get a count on how many bees are in a hive. You can pull a few frames and see how well they are covered with bees and then tell us how many frames are covered.


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

Not one frame is covered. Mostly I see a bunch here and a bunch there. I remember what it looked like when all the frames were covered.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

evangeline said:


> Not one frame is covered. Mostly I see a bunch here and a bunch there. I remember what it looked like when all the frames were covered.


Not good!

Could you get pictures of brood area from the other colony? This may help other people meeting similar issues.


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

Yes I will get some images next time I go in there. It really was a sad sight. I had a good cry over it the other day. I feel highly responsible.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

evangeline said:


> Yes I will get some images next time I go in there. It really was a sad sight. I had a good cry over it the other day. I feel highly responsible.


You should call the state apiary inspector to help you get past this issue and give suggestions on how to move forward.
The issue is current and the evidence is fresh for them at apiary to make the diagnosis fast and easy. 
That is what they are there for after all, and you need to know how to handle this situation if you continue to keep bees.


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## hickdriller (Apr 27, 2016)

Clayton Huestis said:


> Looks like PMS to me. Maybe EFB too.


Yep I would say it's PMS. Kent Williams talks about it on YouTube. There is a app u can download called Bee Health. It's free will show it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Mite feces in just about every one of the OP's cells. Would check some larva with a stick, but doesn't look like AFB (but I've never seen it in person). Wouldn't disagree that it looks a little like EFB, years ago I sent a similar looking situation to Beltville (not nearly as bad as OP) and it was not EFB. But that says nothing about OP's situation at all. 

That's what it took for me to get serious about mites.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

evangeline said:


> I foolishly bought the AFB test instead of the EFB test. I used that test and it was negative. I have an EFB test arriving Monday. When I went in I saw barely any larva to test. I saw barely any brood and no eggs. I did see the queen though.
> Does it make sense to feed them? There is some honey and nectar in the hive. I feel bad just waiting and doing nothing.


No, don't feed them. They're already dead they just don't know it. I'd "alcohol wash" all of the remaining bees and then make sure nothing robbed the boxes out. Test for EFB, if negative... great.
You currently have or had a very heavy mite load.

Here's one of your pictures. Mite feces is this white, speckly looking stuff on the sides of the brood cells. It's difficult to see in pictures sometimes, depending on the angle, but nearly every brood cell in your pictures appears to have some of it. Just circling some of it. Really there could be a whole red circle around all of the brood cells. When you're inspecting tilt the combs and look into the cells at the walls. Don't confuse this with larval shuck (last skin shedding before it pupates). That should be basically at the very bottom of the cell and looks like a little white pile of skin (which is what it is). Very different looking than the mite feces (and bigger). 










Not my pic, but... The squiggly white stuff at the very bottom is the last larval shedding. The white stuff on the walls is the feces. 









Another not my pic, but annotated that might help.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

evangeline said:


> I foolishly bought the AFB test instead of the EFB test. I used that test and it was negative.


That may be a blessing. Of all of the things it might be, AFB seems the least likely, but the worst thing imaginable. You've rulled that out, you go on.



evangeline said:


> Does it make sense to feed them? There is some honey and nectar in the hive. I feel bad just waiting and doing nothing.


Speaking as someone who saw this happen this year in a teaching yard - no. What will happen if you do that is they will get robbed out and anything the sick hive has will be transferred to the other hive(s). I would also probably close down that entrance to the smallest reducer since you say there's honey in there.

In one of those pics it looked like sacbrood, but since nothing really looks good, PMS seems likely.

@evangeline have you done mite monitoring on these hives during the year?



jwcarlson said:


> Not my pic, but...


Those are awesome pics! Do you remember where you got them?


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

The EFB test today was negative.
The population is even lower today.

So by process of elimination is the problem mites?

This was my first year with bees. I wanted to stay treatment free per Bush's beekeeping and others. I really wanted to stay chemical free as much as possible.

1) for the dying hive, do I need to do the alcohol wash now?
2) for the other hive, it looks much much better, population is still lower than they were but they are happier and have more honey. What are the next steps for that hive?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Now at least you don't have to needlessly burn your equipment.


Ah, so the Treatment free comes out at long last.

If it makes you feel any better, it's not unusual for newbeekeepers to fall for the "treatment free" - look at Mr. X who does TF - let's keep bees without chemicals, yay.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

username00101 said:


> Now at least you don't have to needlessly burn your equipment.


I'm fairly certain that's not how you fix EFB.

By the way @username00101 ... how many times are you going to edit your post?


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

evangeline said:


> I wanted to stay treatment free per Bush's beekeeping and others. I really wanted to stay chemical free as much as possible.


Absolutely no shame in either of these goals. Your mistake was in trying with package bees. If you are serious about treatment free then try to source bees from a local (or at least semi local) long term successful TF bee keeper. Will at least stand a decent chance of succeeding. Verses the 7 in 1,000 with commercial bees.

If chemical free is more important than 'chest thumping' TF then research thermal. Yes, it is a treatment but effective and 100% chemical free. Also expensive and slow... But all beekeeping is a compromise of some sort.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Sorry to hear about your bees, evangeline. Don't be too hard on yourself. 
Beekeeping can be a harsh taskmaster. 
As one commercial beekeeper said , (paraphrasing): "I've killed more bees than you'll ever have. "

Learn from this and go forward. There are a lot of good things to be gotten from keeping bees that have nothing to do with honey, beeswax, etc.
Keep your head up!


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

username00101 said:


> Now at least you don't have to needlessly burn your equipment.
> 
> 
> Ah, so the Treatment free comes out at long last.
> ...


Thanks for your response.


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

William Bagwell said:


> Absolutely no shame in either of these goals. Your mistake was in trying with package bees. If you are serious about treatment free then try to source bees from a local (or at least semi local) long term successful TF bee keeper. Will at least stand a decent chance of succeeding. Verses the 7 in 1,000 with commercial bees.
> 
> If chemical free is more important than 'chest thumping' TF then research thermal. Yes, it is a treatment but effective and 100% chemical free. Also expensive and slow... But all beekeeping is a compromise of some sort.


Thanks William I appreciate your suggestions and I will look into thermal. I do like your idea about sourcing bees from a TF beekeeper. I imagine that will be hard to find. If its not possible then I wont continue with bees because I dont get any pleasure from killing bees just to stay treatment free.


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

Arnie said:


> Sorry to hear about your bees, evangeline. Don't be too hard on yourself.
> Beekeeping can be a harsh taskmaster.
> As one commercial beekeeper said , (paraphrasing): "I've killed more bees than you'll ever have. "
> 
> ...


Hi Arnie, your post was really nice and encouraging. I am learning a lot from beekeeping and from this forum as well. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

evangeline said:


> So by process of elimination is the problem mites?


Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately... 9 times out of 10 mites is the answer to the problem.

As far as what to do now, the dying one has been dead for a month. It just might not have known it yet. The other is very likely absolutely crawling with mites. It wouldn't surprise me if you opened it up and the brood looked really similar to the stuff pictured. Have you looked at it recently? If it doesn't look like trash consider yourself lucky, but that does not mean they're OK. Do an alcohol wash if you wish, but if the hive next door died of varroa this other one is almost certainly well on its way or perhaps just a couple weeks behind when you noticed it on the other one. Slumped larva and dying brood isn't normal and should always be noted in even the smallest quantity of "one". Now there's absolutely one-off larva death, that's nature. But it's not normal. Like I said, I bet the brood in the other hive also looks like trash.

Best course of action would be to not bother testing for mites and to do a treatment. Oxalic acid dribble is the lowest barrier to entry. You could do one now and do one again in a couple weeks when they're most likely broodless. But if there was massive drift from the neighboring hive it's probably all over anyway without having some longer-acting mite treatment in place while the drift was occurring.

Keeping bees isn't particularly difficult (IMO), but keeping bees TF with all of the baggage that term has with it might be nearly impossible for a new beekeeper without proper resources including money and the stomach to find colony after colony needlessly dead or dying from an introduced pest that they do not have the evolutionary tools with which to deal with right now.


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## evangeline (Apr 28, 2021)

jwcarlson said:


> Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately... 9 times out of 10 mites is the answer to the problem.
> 
> As far as what to do now, the dying one has been dead for a month. It just might not have known it yet. The other is very likely absolutely crawling with mites. It wouldn't surprise me if you opened it up and the brood looked really similar to the stuff pictured. Have you looked at it recently? If it doesn't look like trash consider yourself lucky, but that does not mean they're OK. Do an alcohol wash if you wish, but if the hive next door died of varroa this other one is almost certainly well on its way or perhaps just a couple weeks behind when you noticed it on the other one. Slumped larva and dying brood isn't normal and should always be noted in even the smallest quantity of "one". Now there's absolutely one-off larva death, that's nature. But it's not normal. Like I said, I bet the brood in the other hive also looks like trash.
> 
> ...


The little hive had only two larvae that I could even test. I did not see any other larva in the hive. The better hive had more bees and more honey but still hardly any brood.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

evangeline said:


> The little hive had only two larvae that I could even test. I did not see any other larva in the hive. The better hive had more bees and more honey but still hardly any brood.


Brood nests are shrinking a lot right now. Specifically how did the brood look? Spotty? Any perforated cappings? Shrimpy looking bees emerging (stunted abdomens).


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