# Fixing comb this is almost "crossing the line" for new package in empty tbh



## duggage (May 20, 2019)

BLUF- Should I reverse some of my bars to help guide my bees to draw straighter comb?

This is a new package in an empty TBH. The bees have been drawing comb starting from east to west and have 6 bars so far with comb. At the 22 day open inspection, in the first couple combs they've drawn out the most, they seem to be developing a curve that is taking them off the starting wood and toward the next bar over (veering North). I put empty bars in between some of the combs so that they can continue to draw out more comb, but I want to deal with this and thought I would seek some advice first.

My options seem to be:

1. Do nothing and see how it goes. I don't really like this option. I feel like I'm going to run into more work down the road if I just "see how they handle it themselves".

2. Do something. I think I like this option because I have an idea...

The bees haven't drawn the comb all the way across the bar yet. They started drawing comb straight from the east end on six bars. Therefore it stands to my reason (not sure if the bees agree) that if I reverse a couple bars from east-west to west-east that the bees "should" angle any further comb to line up more or less between these reversed bars and therefore back on track.

And/or I could reverse this "crooked" bar against the follower.

Concerns/Questions
Am I disturbing the bees too much by rearranging their largely east clustering?
Is there a different way to fix this?

Hope these images show up okay. First showing the comb not filling the whole bar yet. East= left in this case.










Second showing the comb going off the guide.









From the other side...









Thanks for any input. This is my first post here, so I hope the images show up okay. They were clipped out of some video we took.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

This is pretty normal with the foundation-less bars.
The longer the bars, the worse the curves are.
This is normal, btw, as the curve is making the comb stronger (and the bees "know" it).
Simply correct the combs to your liking - gently bend them back to where they belong and stick back to the top bars.
While the combs are still light and malleable is the best time for the correction.


----------



## duggage (May 20, 2019)

GregV said:


> gently bend them back to where they belong and stick back to the top bars


The bend part seems simple enough. Could you explain what you mean by "stick back"? If the break/bend is short enough is it something you can just leave to the bees to reattach as they continue to build? If it's longer do you mean use something- string, zip, etc- to hold it against the top?

And this is preferable to rotating the bar around against the follower or reversing a couple bars?

Thanks for the response, it definitely makes sense to deal with it now while they are soft.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

the comb guide on the bar is way to wide


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

duggage said:


> The bend part seems simple enough. Could you explain what you mean by "stick back"? If the break/bend is short enough is it something you can just leave to the bees to reattach as they continue to build? If it's longer do you mean use something- string, zip, etc- to hold it against the top?
> 
> And this is preferable to rotating the bar around against the follower or reversing a couple bars?
> 
> Thanks for the response, it definitely makes sense to deal with it now while they are soft.


Apply the pressure along the green arrow and *press/stick red comb back to the guide* where the combs meant to be.
Don't play with the rotating the combs and such to not be messing the normal order of the brood nest the bees already established (not a catastrophe, but why create unnecessary hassle for everyone).


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> the comb guide on the bar is way to wide


And pretty sure the bars themselves are 1.5" - this is too wide and leaves too much space for the bees to improvise.
Curving is one way the bees telling you they have too much space.


----------



## duggage (May 20, 2019)

The three bars I have on hand are ~1.43" wide. The guides are ~7/16" (ie .43"). Long story short, the hive was a gift. We plan to circle back with her dad for future iterations based on experience.

I mean we already drilled holes in the side and plugged up the end... I'm not averse to filing/shaving down some guides.  Triangle? I'm also not averse to shaving down some bars and incorporating in some spacers.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

duggage said:


> The three bars I have on hand are ~1.43" wide. The guides are ~7/8" (ie .43"). ...............I'm not averse to filing/shaving down some guides.  Triangle? I'm also not averse to shaving down some bars and incorporating in some spacers.


Confused.
~7/8" can not be 0.43".
Just shave the guides to triangle and be fine.

I'd shave the unused yet ~1.43" bars down to the more conventional ~1.375".
But those in use already can do as is.



> I mean we already drilled holes in the side and plugged up the end...


Unsure what was the purpose of this mod to the original design and if it didn't make the things worse (depending on where exactly are the new holes drilled in the side - close to the end OR right in the middle of the side).


----------



## duggage (May 20, 2019)

GregV said:


> Confused.
> ~7/8" can not be 0.43".


It was a typo. 7/16" is .43", or roughly 1/3rd the width of the bar.



GregV said:


> Just shave the guides to triangle and be fine.
> 
> I'd shave the unused yet ~1.43" bars down to the more conventional ~1.375".
> But those in use already can do as is.


Giving it further thought, it seems like trying to shave 1/16th" off a bunch of bars without accidentally taking off too much is probably reason enough to not do it. While I said I'm not averse to making changes, I am rather prone to deliberation and only wanting to "turn one knob at a time" if I can help it. Right now we are smack in between the "convention" and "too wide" on the bar width.

Is rotating one or two bars really any more "messing the normal order" than the "press and stick" you suggested, or even just standard operation of inserting empty combs?



GregV said:


> Unsure what was the purpose of this mod to the original design and if it didn't make the things worse (depending on where exactly are the new holes drilled in the side - close to the end OR right in the middle of the side).


It is 6" from the end to allow room for an end feeder/follower and access to the hive from either end (as opposed to only one end).


----------



## DavidBrown1212 (May 10, 2021)

Perhaps you could glue some foundation on there. If you could manage a slot it makes things easier. 

I have triangles glued on mine, and they built out 7 bars straight.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

duggage said:


> Is rotating one or two bars really any more "messing the normal order" than the "press and stick" you suggested, or even just standard operation of inserting empty combs?


Like I said, this is not a catastrophe if you turn the bars around.
But you still want the comb *strait* (as to avoid the domino effect of the next combs repeating the same curved pattern).

It is really a trivial thing that takes 5 seconds to straighten a new comb while one is doing an inspection. I'd do it and move on to other things.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

duggage said:


> Giving it further thought, it seems like trying to shave 1/16th" off a bunch of bars without accidentally taking off too much is probably reason enough to not do it.


Just leave them as-is.
It is a busy and non-critical job.
Just looking forward something to consider.


----------



## blackowl (Jul 8, 2015)

GregV said:


> Just leave them as-is.
> It is a busy and non-critical job.
> Just looking forward something to consider.


I agree with this comment, there is nothing to do much about it.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I don't...
having bars that voliate the rules of beespace means a constant fight, being 1/16" off stacks up to an inch at 16 bars 😉

Even 1 3/8" can some times be a bit wide for natural comb, some run 1 1/4 bars and spasers. I run 1 5/16" bars threw out..
Either way you have to manage things, start placing empty bars between drawn bars so they draw them out with the combs to guide them


----------



## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Your comb "guides" are WAY too thick. They shouldn't be more than a quarter inch. I'd remove them on any bars they haven't started and see if things improve for you. Otherwise you will be fighting it the bees on every single bar. See my photo for the comb guides I use.


----------



## duggage (May 20, 2019)

After making a somewhat heroic attempt at the uh... "ol' push and smush" (let's just call it that), I have to say "5 seconds" and "easy" just weren't the four letter words that come to mind atm. We hadn't seen the queen yet, just signs of her laying, but of course she was on the bar that needed correcting. She's fine, I'm fine- first sting, but I only cried a little (  ). The comb is largely fine, although I feel more like a wax moth than a surgeon after that. Who knew that wax and nectar really don't stick so well, GREG??? 

I appreciate all the comments and criticism about the bars. I could tell a good tale about the creation of this hive, but for now let's just say it's something I figure had to be iterated on. I looked at whether trimming them to Vs would be feasible, but they are tacked on with little nails. I might mess with one first to see how it goes before deciding whether just to rip some out.

All that said, the bees are drawing pretty decent comb on the ones I put in. I reversed a bar near the end away from the queen and put a spacer between it and the follower. I'm hoping the bar next to it will remain relatively straight without the added pressure.

And as for the "rules of beespace", I'm pretty sure bees don't read, but I'll pass them a note saying "sorry 'bout the bars" and hope they don't chew it up in response. Who knows?


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

duggage said:


> Who knew that wax and nectar really don't stick so well, GREG???


You don't need to worry about it.
Bees will stick it and do the final job, not you.
You *move the bulk* and the bees will do the final masonry.

But now you know how to do it.
I can not come and do your work for you. 

Hopefully, you did smoke/brush the bees away.
Kinda a common sense. 

I had much bigger messes to fix, believe me.
When running large foundation-less frames, all kinds of fun may come along.
Just keep them straight.


----------



## duggage (May 20, 2019)

Not worried about it. The comb still isn't perfect (the lower half still has a bit of a curve away from the follower), but looking at it this morning, I think it'll work out better than messing with it anymore. I think the problem stems from the follower itself. The bars being "too wide" by 1.6mm still doesn't leave enough of a gap for the bees to get through on the follower side without the comb shifting over the way it did. A spacer would also fix it, but they are building out comb, so I'll give them empty bars for now and put a spacer on the end. Here's a snap from this morning through the obs. Most of the other comb is drawing out just fine on the other bars. It's just this... edge case...


----------



## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

I think the same about comb guide, warre talk about 2 mm wide for comb guide. I do the guide like shown in beekeeping for all, with wax.

GregV, are you using half frames, aren't you? It seems the bees don't glue the combs to the walls...
And, what kind of hive is this?


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

duggage said:


> [...] I looked at whether trimming them to Vs would be feasible, but* they are tacked on with little nails.* I might mess with one first to see how it goes before deciding whether just to rip some out.


If that's all that's holding them on - then if it were me - I'd pry them off, reduce the width of those bars to around 1 1/4" and attach popsicle sticks thusly:










Long story short: I'd made 24 standing frames for an experimental set-up, and then promptly decided against it, but didn't want to waste the work already done - so I added a 10mm thick top bar to each existing frame, resulting in a thickness of 20mm at the frame top. Not wishing to make them any thicker than that, and being unable to cut a groove into frames already built, I tried gluing-on popsicle sticks as starter-strips using 100% waterproof glue. Although not really necessary, when the glue (as above) had dried, I then ran an additional fillet of glue alongside each stick as 'belt & braces'.

These are now in service and have worked perfectly as starters, as popsicle sticks have always done in the past.
'best,
LJ


----------



## duggage (May 20, 2019)

Grégori said:


> I think the same about comb guide, warre talk about 2 mm wide for comb guide. I do the guide like shown in beekeeping for all, with wax.
> 
> And, what kind of hive is this?


If you're referring to mine, it's a tbh with 18" long bars.




little_john said:


> If that's all that's holding them on - then if it were me - I'd pry them off, reduce the width of those bars to around 1 1/4" and attach popsicle sticks thusly:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but narrow width bars like that (1.25") are more conducive to brood, right? Whereas 1.5" are more conducive to honey storage. The point in between is 3/8" which is why a lot of people split the difference and do that all the way. Or in the cases of some they have half of each. I don't want more brood.

At this point I'm going to fall on the side of not over-engineering. I may pull some splines at some point, but I'm probably going to do my inspection/sugar this weekend, see how the combs look and make minor adjustments to bar/comb position then. And also take pictures/video. I take lot of footage to be able to review/share.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

over time move the "wonky " ones to the far end from the entrance, then in the fall harvest them out and leave the good ones for the nest. should be able to get 2 a year out that way. Hopefully "most" are fine and you can eat the non fine ones.

GG


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Grégori said:


> GregV, are you using half frames, aren't you? It seems the bees don't glue the combs to the walls...
> And, what kind of hive is this?


Yep - half-frames.
When out of proper hardware, I switch to half-frames (which happens often with me).
Then these temp half-frames stay in rotation "forever".

They *usually *don't glue to the walls.
IF they do - it is a trivial cut away with a long bread knife.
Once separated they never glue back again.
They never glue the bottom; *never*.

The entire "glue to the wall" issue is overrated, it is NOT a big deal.
People who have no clue cry about this the loudest. 

The only thing that irritates me with the half frames - when soft comb gets overloaded with honey and collapses. They are not great for pure honey usage; but for the brood nest work very well.
And so it is best to start them as the brood frames and to have the comb hardened. 
After that, they are rock solid.
This same idea apples to the TBH too.

I run the Ukrainian system (aka modified Layens).
Predominantly natural comb.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

If one to ask me about the most efficient/simple/cheap long hive...
This would be a Tanzanian style hive, but build around the half-frames and of square cross-section.
But no-one ever asks, LOL.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

duggage said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but narrow width bars like that (1.25") are more conducive to brood, right? Whereas 1.5" are more conducive to honey storage.


yes.. and a lot of people over think and under manage it
if you keep feeding empty bars in to the brood nest you get nice worker combs drawn between a pair of existing combs as you do this your arranging for older combs to shift towards back, they are stronger then fresh honey combs with new wax and you have less breakage... form there you have empty bars between those for the bees to draw and they follow the bees space so the combs are drawn to the bar size
you get those big fat combs if you letting them drawn comb with nothing next to it to confine them, they take advantage of the extra space



duggage said:


> I don't want more brood.


your a 1st year, your not at a point in our learning curve to know one way or another, so you need to let the bees make what they want... as its a hive just started form a package, you can almost gareente they willned quite a few more brood combs then they have built thus far 

limiting brood combs will likly lead to swarming, witch KTBH are know for.. the bees draw a honey comb, it acts as a bairor to the queen, she runs out of space and they hit the trees
I keep at least 2 bars being drawn in the nest druing the season (usaly more bars)... often placeing new ones weekly


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

One obvious advantage of 1.25" bars is that you can managed them both ways - narrow and wide.
But once stuck with 1.5" bars, you can not squeeze them anymore narrower than they are already.

So 1.25" is for me (when I have time for them).


----------



## duggage (May 20, 2019)

Gray Goose said:


> over time move the "wonky " ones to the far end from the entrance, then in the fall harvest them out and leave the good ones for the nest. should be able to get 2 a year out that way. Hopefully "most" are fine and you can eat the non fine ones.
> 
> GG


That's great advice. We were planning on waiting til spring to take any honey- letting them hold what they make over winter. Crooked comb seems like a problem that could be addressed over time with patience.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

duggage said:


> _little_john said:_
> _If that's all that's holding them on - then if it were me - I'd pry them off, reduce the width of those bars to around 1 1/4" and attach popsicle sticks thusly:_
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but narrow width bars like that (1.25") are more conducive to brood, right?


Not quite. 1.25" will ensure that WORKER brood comb is drawn. Anything larger than that encourages the drawing of DRONE comb. Now you will need some drone comb, of course, but not as much as bees will draw if left to their own devices. Drones are best considered as consumers, rather than producers.



> Whereas 1.5" are more conducive to honey storage.


"Conducive ?" Well, the width of comb spacing will not INFLUENCE the decision to store honey within those combs, but a wider comb spacing *will* result in thicker combs which will certainly store more honey if this is the use to which they are put.



> The point in between is 3/8" which is why a lot of people split the difference and do that all the way. Or in the cases of some they have half of each.


1 & 3/8" is a 'one-size fits all' compromise which results in combs which are then no longer ideal for either purpose. Indeed, this is the size chosen by manufacturers of Hoffman-spaced frames in order to make mass-production simpler, and therefore more profitable. But this flies in the face of what Langstroth (who knew a thing or two about bees) said about this particular issue.

In his second Patent (which proved to be necessary in defence of his first), Langstroth went to some length to clarify issues surrounding frame clearances - which later became known as 'the bee-space' - and while writing about this he maintained that the distance between the combs themselves should always be made "adjustable at will" by the beekeeper. Now this cannot be achieved within those Top-Bar Hives which have a touching (contiguous) bar array.

HOWEVER, a solution to this problem* can* be achieved by the use of inter-bar spacers (or shims). This does however make construction slightly more complex.

So - with 1.25" bars, an array of 100% worker combs can then be drawn-out. When this has been achieved, 1/8" (3mm) spacers can be inserted between one or two blank bars, from which will then be drawn drone comb if the bees require it, worker comb if not, or a mixture.
In the stores area, two or more spacers can be inserted to provide the 1.5" or 1.5+" comb-spacing for honey storage.



> I don't want more brood.


What YOU want doesn't enter into the equation - it's what the BEES want which is the only factor to be considered. At certain times of the year they will want to expand their brood-nest - if this room isn't provided, then they will very likely abandon your hive in search of somewhere more suitable. Bees cannot be controlled like other forms of livestock.
'best
LJ


----------



## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

Í Have no words to describe my satisfaction about this converse. 
I'm achieving frammed hives is really better, controversing what warre talks about the people's hive.
Here I have a different climate than yours (6 months with a lot of rain in spring and summer, september to june, and then the rain declines to nothing march ahead. Average temp 27.5°C with 33 apex ) and I know that everything changes with this situation but I'm trying to find a better way to maintain my ladies including a hive with low maintenance and good results in production.


> If one to ask me about the most efficient/simple/cheap long hive...
> This would be a Tanzanian style hive, but build around the half-frames and of square cross-section.


It probably will fit for me.
What do you think considering climate stats?


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Grégori said:


> ...........
> 
> 
> > If one to ask me about the most efficient/simple/cheap long hive...
> ...


In my location, the bees should be kept in vertical hives (or very deep horizontals at the least).
Shallow horizontals (e.g. Tanzanian style) don't do well here - seriously cold and long winter season.

With your climate, I'd do it hands-down.
You could keep bees in a shoe box (if not for the wetness).
Modified Tanzanian hive with half-frames is just as simple as the Kenyan hive (while not having the usual Kenyan issues).

The Tanzanian has two distinct advantages (in my opinion):

simpler hive construction due to standard 90 degree angles (none of these funny random angles)
significantly better comb support afforded by the half-frames (which are still very simple/cheap to make).
With the Tanzanian you can choose to be compatible with the standard frames (and thus use the standard frames as well when those are available). This is a very simple and logical choice to make.

I make half-frames from scraps using very basic staples - how can this be simpler and cheaper to make is beyond me.
This half-frame construction supports well very large combs - identical in size to full Dadant frames (I did mention the caveats). See pictures.

The widely promoted, perceived simplicity of the Kenyan is really disservice IMO by those who had done it and keep selling these to the inexperienced customers in the developed countries.
The built-in incompatibility to any other hive systems AND between the various Kenyans themselves is a show-stopper in the conditions where various hive systems coexist side by side.

The only place where the Kenyan makes sense (and meant so by the very original design) is somewhere in remote African/South American bush where the compatibility issues are not a real concern but ability to pickup ANY semi-straight stick from a ground and use it as a top bar is huge advantage and almost is a requirement.


----------



## duggage (May 20, 2019)

GregV said:


> In my location, the bees should be kept in vertical hives (or very deep horizontals at the least).
> Shallow horizontals (e.g. Tanzanian style) don't do well here - seriously cold and long winter season.
> 
> The widely promoted, perceived simplicity of the Kenyan is really disservice IMO ...
> The built-in incompatibility to any other hive systems AND between the various Kenyans themselves is a show-stopper in the conditions where various hive systems coexist side by side.


This bit about "widely promoted, perceived simplicity" really speaks to me in how I came about to having a tbh...

The hive we have, as you've seen some pictures of, was built by my fil at the request of my wife as an xmas gift a couple years ago. He was getting back into woodworking and was looking for things to do, so she left it up to him.

He settled on the plans he did after saying that he found one that was simple to build and maintain and that it was "widely used". Once I looked it up (after he showed some progress pics) I was like "uh... I don't think anyone here in Michigan uses this- they mostly tend to use langstroth". But it was a gift from the heart with good intentions- so there's that. And he built a swarm box, feeder tray, candy bar- the whole shebang. About a month after (Feb 2019) we attended a bee conference to bone up on general knowledge and the hope of finding other tbh keepers. Everything was langstroth- all the books, all the kits, all the education- except for the stuff about trees/plants. Even the guy at the "varroa management" seminar like... side-eyed me and had to pause for a moment when I asked how all these management techniques (so far all talking about where to put strips/etc on langstroth) worked in a top bar hive. His response was something like "I'm not entirely sure, but about the same?"

One thing I definitely came away with was that langstroth is heavily commercialized and while it aims at hobby keepers at well, I felt it was very "and you need this, and this, and this" and in that regard my fil was correct that tbh were "more simple"- there's little market around doo-dads for them. haha We also attended various local bee groups and again- it all seemed langstroth focused.

But reading books and watching vids from the likes of Phil Chandler helped reinforce the perspective we already wanted to have as "beekeepers". We're not there to simply farm the bees, per se. We're there to learn from and help the bees (if/when we can), and if they succeed and produce some extra honey, then we can share as a job well done.

At any rate, we knew the head organizer of that conference from the farmer's market and her husband (they sell honey, we grow/sell garlic). As time rolled on we became friends and after a year of trying to lure a local swarm we decided to buy a package. Our friend, knowing we were serious and studied said he'd help us get one if we don't succeed in our baiting efforts.

And so the package we have now is our first, and we intend to learn and make mistakes and largely find our way on our own (because "everyone around here does langs"), but also with the help of our friends (who are more curious about our odd hive than anything) because of their decades of wisdom in general bee-tending. And hopefully sometimes with the help of people on this forum who will set aside their judgement about the (to them) apparently insufficient job my fil did making this hive and the lack of changes we decided to make before putting it into service. Example: I didn't rip out the splines and replace them with triangles/etc because while I read and watched and never saw such splines as were on the bars, my fil had followed some plans he got on the internet. And I didn't yet have the practical experience to know for certain that it needed changing. Nor the widths being such a violation of "the rules".

As just a general type response to some of the posts in this thread...

As a first-time poster to this forum (this thread being my first) I have to say I find it a bit discouraging. I have other questions to ask and knowledge to gain and if that is going to be met with "what you want doesn't matter" or "you're to new to know anything" type responses- well I can't see how that helps at all. It distracts from every other part of the response. Even now I'm wasting time sort of explaining/defending how I came by this hive with the "too wide" guides instead of asking about swarm cells, etc.

Once again thanks to GregV for the advice/drawings though. I felt the task was more daunting than simple (out of lack of experience), but getting though it once leads to better preparedness for the next time. I have thoughts on bars and other questions to ask, but that isn't the problem I was trying to solve here.

Thanks again, and for the food for thought on the bars.

Peace,
D


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

duggage said:


> This bit about "widely promoted, perceived simplicity" really speaks to me in how I came about to having a tbh...


To be sure, I don't even have Lang hives and do my best to avoid them (different subject).
But at the same time I do my best to be *compatible *with the Langs in any new project that I do.

The cross-system compatibility is something that you always want to consider in the conventional settings.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

duggage said:


> That's great advice. We were planning on waiting til spring to take any honey- letting them hold what they make over winter. Crooked comb seems like a problem that could be addressed over time with patience.


right slowly shift it to the back of the stack, the brood if present will hatch, and they will fill it by _fall have it at the far end with a couple other wonkys and then take 1 in Oct 1 time frame for eating , and more in the spring.
leave if you are concerned about enough for wintering.

GG_


----------



## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

duggage said:


> This bit about "widely promoted, perceived simplicity" really speaks to me in how I came about to having a tbh...
> 
> The hive we have, as you've seen some pictures of, was built by my fil at the request of my wife as an xmas gift a couple years ago. He was getting back into woodworking and was looking for things to do, so she left it up to him.
> 
> ...


Hey, we are on Haven here. On my country "everybody" look for Lang hives and, when i talk about other type frequently hear "you are crazy, it doesn't work, waste of time..."and this is very discouraging for anyone.
Share with bee will be ever challenging 
I thank to you for share your question
I thank to the master for, with all the cosmos patience, share their knowledge.
I have some dificultie with the language, do not domain the english but i prefer with all tags, study here. Keep going on!


----------



## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

GregV said:


> To be sure, I don't even have Lang hives and do my best to avoid them (different subject).
> But at the same time I do my best to be *compatible *with the Langs in any new project that I do.
> 
> The cross-system compatibility is something that you always want to consider in the conventional settings.


I like a lot this advice. Now I'm run two Lang box 1 10 frames and a nuc but search another state. I was reading about Tanzanian and think to run a deep one to use my deep frames. Can I?


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Grégori said:


> I like a lot this advice. Now I'm run two Lang box 1 10 frames and a nuc but search another state. I was reading about Tanzanian and think to *run a deep one to use my deep frames.* Can I?


Why, sure you can.
You got my permission. 

Basically you want to ran a long Lang - all it is to it.
The long Langs are becoming popular now and for many good reasons.

There is no particular difference between any long hives - it just simply makes sense to make them *compatible *to some kind of a conventional frame. You can still run just the top bars in them OR you can run full frames OR you can run half-frames.
You can whatever the heck you want.
Really that simple.


----------



## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

Kkkkkk thanks for your permission!!!
I just read a little about and get worried about the troubles I can hit. I think i will expand my lang in a medium half frame depth and, at the right time split into a tanzanian medium. Think it's a good plan.

I like to experiment but, if a saw someone having trouble with that a skip the idea.

"You can"
LOL


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Grégori said:


> Kkkkkk thanks for your permission!!!
> I just read a little about and get worried about the troubles I can hit. I think i will expand my lang in a medium half frame depth and, at the right time split into a tanzanian medium. Think it's a good plan.
> 
> I like to experiment but, if a saw someone having trouble with that a skip the idea.
> ...


To be sure, the long Lang is typically done around the Lang deep frames (not the medium Lang frames).
I understand your climate is very forgiving, but still you'd want at least the Land deep frame depth of your horizontal hive(s).
This is to even have the length of the hive to be reasonable.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

here is a "pic of a double deep lang frame long hive" for a start to your thoughts.






Natural Beekeeping | Horizontal Hives | Do-It-Yourself Plans







horizontalhive.com




look down the list at plan 23 from the top.

start with the frame size you have,, add some "bee space" build a big box...



have fun

GG


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

duggage said:


> As a first-time poster to this forum (this thread being my first) I have to say I find it a bit discouraging. I have other questions to ask and knowledge to gain and if that is going to be met with "what you want doesn't matter" or "you're to new to know anything" type responses-



It wasn't met to discourage, it was ment to keep you out of the traps new enthusiastic bee keepers fall in to..

You have given up foundation, you have given up frames, you have given up supers and expandable hives.. Common tools used to encourage the bees do what the keeper wants.... so you have put the bees in charge

as you say



duggage said:


> the perspective we already wanted to have as "beekeepers". We're not there to simply farm the bees, per se. We're there to learn from and help the bees (if/when we can), and if they succeed and produce some extra honey, then we can share as a job well done.


many of us have learned from the bees, I ran KTBH and nucs for close to a decade, 10+ hives at one point ..
every year I am dealing with one or 2 new keepers who are overwhelmed to tears over the cross comb mess in their KTBH because they ignored the basics

yes with bars you can cortoral comb width... but not what kind of comb it is (you need foundation for that).. so yes its very true it dosen't matter what you want, it matters what the bees want to build

you have asked for help, you didn't like the answers
you talk about learning for the bees, and then with just a few weeks experience you decide you know better then the bees and they should only have X brood comb, and are upset it was challenged as a under informed position.

Best of luck, the bees will show you the way


----------



## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

GregV said:


> To be sure, the long Lang is typically done around the Lang deep frames (not the medium Lang frames).
> I understand your climate is very forgiving, but still you'd want at least the Land deep frame depth of your horizontal hive(s).
> This is to even have the length of the hive to be reasonable.


At really, "i don't ran" Langstroth at all. I want to keep bees in my life like I feel in my heart.
If everybody do this way I want to do something different because the common way is not for me, never was.
Think about deep Tanzanian couse I have two deep Lang hives and want to use this to make the transition easier. Now, I will put some half frames I my deep like I was done to have a people's hive and in a proper moment split in that one.


> I understand your climate is very forgiving


I think I'm not sure about this, language issues.


----------



## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> here is a "pic of a double deep lang frame long hive" for a start to your thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What amazing site!!!
Now I don't know what I want to make, maybe every hive I saw in the list.
LOL
Thanks man
The transitional layens hive is very interesting.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Grégori said:


> What amazing site!!!
> Now I don't know what I want to make, maybe every hive I saw in the list.
> LOL
> Thanks man
> The transitional layens hive is very interesting.


Sounds like you did not really study the Beesource yet.
You should though.
We have been at the long hive discussions for while now.
Assortment of topics:








Assorted existing "horizontal hive" topics -...


Since I know of few "horizontal hive" topics that exist in other forums, putting assorted links here. Horizontal deep hives: https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?341887-Horizontal-deep-hives Convert Langstroth frame to horizontal deep hive...




www.beesource.com





Here a good resent talk:








Top Bar & Horizontal Hive Forum


Top Bar, Layen, Ukrainian, any other horizontal hives.




www.beesource.com


----------



## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

> Sounds like you did not really study the Beesource yet.


I live in the jungle without electricity. The opportunity I have is not enougth to read a lot.
I will do in some time. 
Thank the help with links.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Gregori,
keep at the research, in time a "hive type" will keep coming up in your mind.
go with your gut and enjoy.

factor in the stuff you will need, frames, foundation, bees, extracting, etc and work with what you have good access to.
keep it simple

best of luck

GG


----------



## duggage (May 20, 2019)

msl said:


> you have asked for help, you didn't like the answers


Absolutely untrue. What I didn't like is derailing from the question asked (read the first post) and using a miswritten comment as an opportunity to belittle. Maybe I meant drones- which was the case. Maybe I was really just trying to say I'm not down with shaving all my bars atm- also the case. But you didn't ask- you just made an issue of it- and STILL ARE. Maybe had you asked you'd find I'm okay correcting crooked comb and trying to see how the bees sort things out instead of you continuing with line of comment like this...



msl said:


> you talk about learning for the bees, and then with just a few weeks experience you decide you know better then the bees and they should only have X brood comb, and are upset it was challenged as a under informed position.
> 
> Best of luck, the bees will show you the way


Why continue to post in this manner? If you aren't trying to discourage, then why are you in the tbh forum talking about all the things "you have given up"?

Comments like the ones you're making aren't "answers"- it's just trying to justify with more abuse/ridicule. I gave you feedback. Do with it what you will.

Peace,
D


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Grégori said:


> I live in the jungle without electricity. The opportunity I have is not enougth to read a lot.
> I will do in some time.
> Thank the help with links.


OK.
Some of us here (myself included) have been spoiled with too much electricity.
Good luck to you!

I can see how the low tech approaches should work for you the best - some sort of Tanzanian model with half-frames should work fine then. I am thinking you can easily make the half-frames from all kinds of non-standard wood (proper lumber is not really required).


----------



## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> Gregori,
> keep at the research, in time a "hive type" will keep coming up in your mind.
> go with your gut and enjoy.
> 
> ...


I start thinking in a simple manner. Here almost all information is about Lang and then I hit that. After that I found ktbh and was discouraged by the others.
Go to the hell with all that stupid way of treating the others tags. Here I found brother that respect our needings... even when they use some weyrd expressions.
Now I found Tanzanian that seems to fit me.
I realize by myself that I can use stick as top bar ( I know I will do in some time) but I'm a handcraftsman and love work with natural source.








In my mommy's house I have a workshop with some power tools tools and in my jungle's house I have some hand tools that i can make something.
Slowly and ever I will making what I need.
Happy with your help. I will show you my progress.



> I can see how the low tech approaches should work for you the best - some sort of Tanzanian model with half-frames should work fine then. I am thinking you can easily make the half-frames from all kinds of non-standard wood (proper lumber is not really required).


In my country the people doesn't worry about usable trash, this way I have a LOOOOOOOOT of source to work between jungle and city and then I can made a lot of good equipment with low coast.
Thanks everybody


----------



## mrqb (Jul 17, 2011)

The Bee's will be Bee's if you let them.....Wise word's from a Wise man, and my favorite "Quote". cut open a bee tree and you shall see, some are straight and some have a curved shape.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

duggage said:


> _msl said:__you talk about learning for the bees, and then with just a few weeks experience you decide you know better then the bees and they should only have X brood comb, and are upset it was challenged as a under informed position._
> 
> Why continue to post in this manner?


With those words* msl *was spot on. Why continue to post ? I suspect he's trying to set the record straight.

You know, "people see what people see ... "

Priests see a world with souls to be saved; medics see a world with injury and disease at every turn; businessmen see a world full of financial opportunity; thieves and con-men see a world presenting quite different opportunities (!).

Each person sees the world through their own perceptual filter - and so when one person - with the very best of intentions - attempts to assist another, and guide them away from making mistakes which may lead to the loss of their colony, that beginner - seeing their world through a quite different filter - may interpret such assistance as being an attempt to belittle them.

What I would suggest to a beginner who is perhaps super-sensitive about being 'the new boy at school' and the discomfort which invariably accompanies such an event - is, rather than pick on a phrase or two and focus exclusively upon those words -* consider each post in it's entirety, and even examine other posts by the same contributor*, and only then make a judgement as to whether that person has a tendency to belittle others.

If you cannot find evidence of such behaviour (which I'm confident that the moderators would already have flagged up and dealt with), then perhaps it would not be unreasonable to suggest that the advice which was given be re-assessed and re-interpreted - doing so without injecting any personal emotion into the sentence construction.

A person can only ever be responsible for what he or she writes, NOT for how their words are subsequently - and I would suggest incorrectly - interpreted.
'best,
LJ


----------



## duggage (May 20, 2019)

little_john said:


> What I would suggest to a beginner who is perhaps super-sensitive about being 'the new boy at school' and the discomfort which invariably accompanies such an event


Haha. I see. Some people are just going to treat you like the "new boy at school" and you have to endure.  Like I said, I'm done with that.

Let's just talk about comb, shall we?

I had intended to pull up and fix another comb that was curvy, but once we got it out of the hive we found that the curve didn't look like it was going to go cross and also that it sort of fit with the little hitch in the larger comb next to it. Basically the bees are just matching the distance they want. I think this tracks with what GregV mentioned earlier about the bees making a curve to strengthen the comb. Aside from that one that we fixed they seem to be doing a better job of keeping things straight after the hitch.

We did not see the queen with our eyes this time. We spotted several drone out and about looking big and pretending to be busy. We did take pics of both sides of each comb for later inspection on computer where you can zoom in. My wife did an incredible job taking snaps considering the veil she had on is nigh impossible to see through clearly.

Glancing though the pics I think I found her majesty...










They seem to be doing fairly well with comb drawing. The guides being what they are I wonder if the bees sense this structural oddity and are responding as they aren't drawing comb all the way across the bar as fast as they drew out initial comb. That's probably better for the other thread I had that was more generally about bars than this one about potential cross-comb.

See ya,
Doug


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

in re:to the comment
_ as they aren't drawing comb all the way across the bar as fast as they drew out initial comb._

so at first they had no comb and did obviously need some, so like a pioneer just getting to the farm land he chose , lots of building happened the first time slice. then he begins other things garden, babies, stock.etc.

So once the bees have enough comb to "start" the nest, some now are raising brood, some are foraging for water, nectar, pollen, propolis etc. Comb building will slow as they get more and more at some point even stop.

I did not look back at your time lines but it takes 21 days for the first new bee to hatch so the first 3 weeks they slowley loose bees old age, lost, preditators, keeper squishing a few etc. So at 21 days new bees hatch and really for 8-12 days they slowly replace what was lost, seemingly not doing any thing, but they are. 4 weeks in there starts some new slower growth, because as bees hatch those cells can be re used for more brood, so now we only need comb for brood increase over what is hatching. So in reality every few weeks the hive will act different, at first big growth , then slow down, then slow growth , then faster again to set away winter stores. Very much cycles rather than linear.

GG


----------



## duggage (May 20, 2019)

That's a really great characterization of things. The overall population "seems" greater than when it started by enough to notice. Most growth being workers, but now also some drones out and about. Also there are nearly twice as many bars available to build on as when they started, so their slowing growth is spread out.

We popped cork on the queen cage Apr-24 (Sat afternoon). I didn't spot any actual comb through the bees until a week later. But we saw at least a few drone out yesterday, which would typically be 24 days for them. It could also just be perception of "more bees" based on them being spread across a dozen comb instead of balled up.


----------

