# Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter



## Mycroft Jones (Aug 22, 2015)

Location: Vancouver, BC. Cool and extremely humid.

New beek here. Had a hive 7 years ago. Hive died after a successful winter, April cold snap, didn't feed in time. Started two nucs in late June last summer (2015). Hive is 120 litres in volume, a bottom entrance at each end. Used coroplast as the covering, based on my experience with Jackson Horizontal Hive. Both nucs expanded to 10 frames of wax, but put away hardly any honey. The hive is Tanzanian top bar style, 26 frames long. Both hives were elevated 3 feet high, kept under the porch roof, so no rain ever fell on them.

I now believe I made the hive too big, so they had to put in too much work in evaporation.

We had a very hot summer, the bees were active and healthy. I fed them dry sugar and pollen patty throughout, because of the late start. They ate a lot of dry sugar during the 80 day drought, but not much when nectar flow was on.

In October the weather turned wet and cold. When I checked the hive at the end of October, the sugar container was so wet, the sugar had turned to syrup. It was full of dead bees. I now believe the bees had filled it with water themselves.

There was mold on the frames, the floor, and on the pollen patty. I washed the (plastic) floor and threw away the syrup and pollen patty.

I've read Mike Bush books on top entrances, bought more than 50% of the books he offers for sale. Good stuff, great reading.
http://www.bushfarms.com/xstar.htm

I read BWrangler's article on condensation.
https://bnaturalguy.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/condensation/

I've read David Eyre's articles on ventilation, and bought two of his hives.
http://www.beeworks.com/d_e_details.html

I've read Rusty's articles about moisture quilt's. Her area in Oregon is very similar in climate to my area.
http://www.honeybeesuite.com/tweaking-my-moisture-quilts/

I've read Tom Seeley's work in Honeybee Democracy

I've read Ed Clarke's Constructive Beekeeping (written in 1918)

A month ago I brought the two hives into my cool basement (averages 9 degrees Celcius) until I could build a replacement hive.

I want a hive that a) doesn't have moisture problem and b) keeps the bees warm enough they can crawl around and eat the dry sugar and drink the water.

Thanks to BWranger's article, I put a water feeder in the hives last night.

I plan to build a new hive, and insulate it with 2 inches of spray foam polyurethane. (R-value 15) This should keep in as much heat as the bees would like.

So my question is about the top vs bottom entrance. The reports I've read are in favor of moisture quilts or other top ventilation, this gets rid of chalk brood, mold, etc. On the other hand, we have BWrangler and Tom Seeley and Constructive Beekeeping saying the moisture/condensation is good.

If I went with bottom entrance, should a smaller volume of space (40 litres) be enough for the bees to control the moisture? We are talking constant coastal fog, and temperatures between 0 degrees and 14 degrees throughout the winter. Rarely gets cold enough to freeze, but definitely cold enough to chill the bones. In addition to the Canadian beekeeper on the east coast who kept a hive in Logy Bay, the Strathcona beekeepers here in my area are also having good success with top ventilation using a moisture quilt.

http://mudsongs.org/switching-out-hard-insulation-for-moisture-quilts/
http://strathconabeekeepers.blogspot.ca/2011/10/moisture-quilt-insulated-hive-cover.html

The science says bees want bottom entrance; in a climate like mine, beeks are reporting that moisture quilt is the way to go. How can we make a bottom entrance work as good as the moisture quilts?

My goal is to get these two weak hives through the winter so they can build up in spring. They already have 10 combs each built up. Any recommendations?


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## Mycroft Jones (Aug 22, 2015)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

Why would I even think of making a new insulated hive to save the bees? Because of this report from Brent Roberts, about insulation letting his bees feed throughout the winter, as long as the temperature was above -20C. Well, in my area, it never even goes down to -20C.

http://www.beebehavior.com/Brent_Roberts.php

Also, Leo Sarashkin's book mentions a story about a tiny swarm that wintered outdoors and survived, the beek kept putting sugar below them, they ate it and survived.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

Lots of questions up there, hard to know where to begin. 

I'm not BWrangler or Michael Bush but I would highly recommend you get in touch with some "local beekeepers" in your immediate area and find out what they are doing to successfully overwinter their hives and adopt some of their practices. It's obvious that you have been doing your homework, but the bottom line is that all beekeeping is local. Some of the things you have been reading about might work just fine for you in your region and climate, other things may be a waste of time, or even counter-productive.


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## wdale (Jun 27, 2014)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

Mycroft Jones
Email me off line of your concerns maybe I can help you [email protected] 604 582 4081 I could help you out! I live in surrey lower mainland area, so I'm close, I need to know some more ???s and info:::: why are your bees so wet??? moisture, mold, wet sugar, how much stores ect I have been bee keeping in this area last few years
Dale


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## Mycroft Jones (Aug 22, 2015)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

Thank you wdale, I will do what you suggested in our phone conversation. I will make a 2 inch high telescoping cover box for the hive, do the mountain camp dry sugar feed, and put 2 vent holes in the telescoping cover box. Soon as that is done, I'll take them back outside and re-open their front floor-entrance, and block the back floor-vent.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

At one point you write about the bees crawling around to drink the water. Do you somehow have water inside the hive? If so that would cause serious moisture problems.


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## Mycroft Jones (Aug 22, 2015)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

I had serious moisture problems even without any water in the hive. There are larger issues, and the bees need to drink, since I threw away the puddle they'd set aside for their winter use.

I'm giving them water using this feeder: http://mudsongs.org/frame-feeders-have-arrived/










So, any evaporation will be pulled out the vent holes in the telescoping cover.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

so you read everything and say others in your area use quilt boxes and they work yet you want to do something else? put on a quilt box, leave the bottom entrance open and call it a day.


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## jvalentour (Sep 4, 2014)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

MJ,
I would not store any water in the hive. 
If you hives are on a porch and dry from rain, but moist, your feeder/waterer might be the problem. 
Let them drink from an external source.
On a covered porch, sheltered from rain, moisture should not be a problem.


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

Or even better, get them out of the top bar and into something with much higher survival like a langstroth hive, take out the water (probably your #1 killer), and get a quilt box on! Bees can handle significant cold. Its the moisture that kills.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

I am not Bwrangler, or Michael Bush either but I do insulate my hives (Langs) quite well so I'll offer this: I think you should use conventional foam insulation panels rather than spray foam.

First of all, it is likely to be cheaper;

It will likely have less off-gassing than recently sprayed foam (I like to buy my panels and keep them in my barn attic for the summer to allow off-gassing to take place away from the hive, but I have used also used new stuff, too. I have used the the purple Formulair panels, green house brand from Lowes; Dow pink (no longer made) a bit of some light blue stuff (brand name escapes me now, but I can check if you like.)

Another reason to use panels rather spray is that even with good application you are nor creating a hermetically sealed chamber so I am sure there is still some air exchange, avoiding closing in the bees too tightly. I use the foam primarily as radiant heat barrier, not an air infiltration barrier, which I think would be a bad thing;

Finally, the panels are re-useable in other years, for other hives, whereas foam will be stuck to boxes;

I aim for R-20 (4" of R-5/inch foam) on the sides and back of my hives, with R-15 on the front. In all cases I use two layers so I can add and subtract as the cold season change. (I live in upper NY state - Z4-Z-5 hoticultural, so cold and not as damp in the winter as you.)

I also use quilt boxes (a idea gleaned and modified from Rusty's HoneyBee Suite site). I have a 1.5" feeding rim with upper entrance on top of my uppermost box; then a fabric- floored quilt box about 5" high filled to the rim with coarse pine shavings; then another 1.5" vent shim with an open hole 1" diameter; then my regular telecover with 1.5" of foam tucked up inside it. The foam is there primarily to protect the wooden parts of the tele from the enormous moisture passing through the shavings below, and also to provide a radiant heat barrier to keep the shavings as warm as possible to facilitate the transfer of the moisture out of the hive. 

On the bottom, I have anuther entrance (reduced to about 1/2 - 3/4"). I run with solid bottom boards.

When I have a really small colony I will modify the interior cavity space of my 10-frame Langs using wooden follower boards and foam panels to a more appropriate size with a vertical orientation (i.e. ten frames becomes a five over five configuration) that better matches the size of a small cluster. I can give more details if that sounds like something you'd like to do. It has the advantage of being quite customizeable and I've had excellent success babying small colonies through my fierce long winters.

I have plastic political signs extending out beyond the front of the tele on the front to provide a rain shield for the front entrance platform. Dring really foul weather (prolonged rain or snow) I will lean another sign across the whole lower front of the hive - the bees easily learn to go out sideways - this provides them with a dry vestibule.

I keep my hives tipped downwards slightly so any condensation can run out without getting caught on the rim of the bottom board.

Someone here calculated that a good sized hive will give off in the neighborhood of five gallons of water over the course of metabolizing a winter's worth of honey. I know I see evidence of that in the spring when I can see moisture on the outside of the vent hole above the quilt box.

I really like quilt boxes - the function perfectly to allow moisture out of the hive if they are made with a fabric floor. You will note that there is no inner cover in the stack I described above - using one would defeat the purpose, I feel.

I hope this info is useful to you. If your local beeks are using quilt boxes, I wouldn't hesitate to do that, too. The work really well for me.

ETA: I have gone to your links and my first comment is that bwrangler is an entirely different winter cliamte area than you, so while his ideas deserve consideration regarding winter moisture I think his Wyoming winter desert has nothing in common with your Vancouver rain forest-y (well, a cold rain forest) climate. His bees may find the interior condensation useful because his winter ambient air is so dry. In Vancouver it might be too much of good thing.

More on point are David Eyre's notions - and you say you have some of his hives - so I'd go with them. 

Finally, I think it is Tom, not David, Seeley. 

Also I don't think it correct to assume that all natural cavities have no upper ventilation, most of the ones I've examined do have some because the cavity-forming wood rot does that to trees in my area. 

Enj.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBtYuGAd6P4

look carefully at 1.46 min and you see how the back rim is removed = entrance to back opened


Top insulation, no air or moisture moving upwards, bottom entrance double size in winter (fully open both ways, back and forth), mouse gards (8mm mesh) on both entrances

Winter food consumption 1kg/month

5cm rim under the lower box gives space for debris and dead bees


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## Mycroft Jones (Aug 22, 2015)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*



kaizen said:


> so you read everything and say others in your area use quilt boxes and they work yet you want to do something else? put on a quilt box, leave the bottom entrance open and call it a day.


They work until the bees propolize them shut. If the bees are propolizing them shut, that probably means there is another mechanism for curing the moisture problem. On the other hand, if the moisture quilt is making them thirsty, then having water in the frame feeder should solve that problem. I put the frame feeder up against the outside wall so it is at ambient temperature, less evaporation going on.


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## Mycroft Jones (Aug 22, 2015)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*



jvalentour said:


> MJ,
> I would not store any water in the hive.
> If you hives are on a porch and dry from rain, but moist, your feeder/waterer might be the problem.
> Let them drink from an external source.
> On a covered porch, sheltered from rain, moisture should not be a problem.


Shouldn't be, but was. Top bar hives don't get much top ventilation unless special steps are taken. At this point I can only speculate that it is because I had a late nuc (second half of June, first week of July) and too much volume (120 litres instead of 40 litres). 120 is 20 litres over the 100 litre limit that Tom Seeley found in his research.

There was no feeder/waterer until last night when I read Dennis Murrell's observations on condensation.


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## Mycroft Jones (Aug 22, 2015)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*



Juhani Lunden said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBtYuGAd6P4
> 
> look carefully at 1.46 min and you see how the back rim is removed = entrance to back opened


Is this the actual back entrance that is now doubled in height? Or is it the back of the under-rim that the box is sitting on?




> Top insulation, no air or moisture moving upwards, bottom entrance double size in winter (fully open both ways, back and forth), mouse gards (8mm mesh) on both entrances


How big is double size? On my hive, the floor-entrances are 1/2"x10"


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## Mycroft Jones (Aug 22, 2015)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

enjambres: your whole post was full of great tips and wisdom. I'm meditating on it now. It is a lot to chew on. Thank you! I had been wondering about whether there was any benefit to insulation when using a moisture quilt; you answered that.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*



Mycroft Jones said:


> Is this the actual back entrance that is now doubled in height? Or is it the back of the under-rim that the box is sitting on?
> 
> How big is double size? On my hive, the floor-entrances are 1/2"x10"



No back entrance in summer. It* is *the back of the under-rim that the box is sitting.

Size before: 2 entrances both 16mm x 448 mm ( about 5/8" x 17,9")
now: 2 entrances both 24x 448 mm (about 1" x 17,9")

The lower entrances did not give enough air circulation for strong hives losing sometimes quite a lot of bees during 4-6 months winter, and entrances were in some (rare) occasions blogged


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*



Mycroft Jones said:


> They work until the bees propolize them shut. If the bees are propolizing them shut, that probably means there is another mechanism for curing the moisture problem. On the other hand, if the moisture quilt is making them thirsty, then having water in the frame feeder should solve that problem. I put the frame feeder up against the outside wall so it is at ambient temperature, less evaporation going on.


If they shut them then they want them shut which means they have other ventilation. get that frame feeder out of there today. feed them dry sugar if you need to. I think you're messing with them too much in an experimental hive design. if they need water keep it outside the hive


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*



kaizen said:


> If they shut them then they want them shut which means they have other ventilation. get that frame feeder out of there today.


I agree completely, take the frame of water out. "Too much" ventilation is not good either. The bees are reacting by propolizing and reducing the upward draft. 

Your hive is not located in the desert or high plains region with relatively dry conditions. You are in the Pacific Northwest area. There will be plenty of moisture in your hive naturally without adding any extra. If you place dry sugar on the top bars moisture will condense on the sugar and the bees will have plenty available.

Try to keep it simple. I'm guessing you are over-thinking this and rushing to conclusions.


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## Sky (Jul 7, 2015)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

Mycroft, I am south of you in WA.... I have to agree with Mike et al - remove the water - there is plenty of water available everywhere around here for your bees - that is probably the major cause of your excess humity... Maybe as an experiment, try removing the water for a week, then take a look a moisture level in hive and reassess if its an issue. 
I'm going with Enjambres on the foam suggestion... forget the spray-its a nasty sticky mess just waiting to happen.... Foam panels are a joy to work with, they tool easily, are self supporting, can be reused..... 
Sky


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

Hi Mycroft Jones

Bees liquefy dry sugar on an individual basis. A container of dry sugar turned to syrup indicates there's way too much water inside the hive. When it's very hot and dry, bees will bring water inside the hive store a small amount. But never in quantities large enough to turn dry sugar into syrup.

I've never seen or heard of such wet conditions inside a hive unless water wicks in from the outside. I've had that happen on Lang hives during extremely violent thunderstorms. In a few rare occurrences, water wicked inside a visually tight hive and almost filled a division board feeder when its outside lip butted up tight against the hive's side wall.

There is another possibility if the cluster is on one end, the sugar on the far end, and some combless space between them. Condensation, driven by cluster heat and directed by hive slope, could collect and drip into the sugar. But the bees and occupied comb should be dry and OK.

That's the pattern seen in my Lang hives with the plex cover. The cluster stayed dry. Condensation never formed above the cluster. But only away from it.

If the sugar is below the cluster, water could have accumulated in the far reaches of the hive and run down the bottom board. Everything should still be OK.

But it that moisture dripped down directly around the cluster, there are big problems inside the cluster.

Regardless of the source or cause, I suspect it's too wet inside the hive. I'd get the water out and provide some upward ventilation near the wet area.

After that, you can monitor them, maybe with a plexiglass panel replacing some empty topbars. And then work on a long term fix if it's a problem. It could be as simple as levelling or slightly tipping the hive to provide some drainage for accumulate moisture.

I'm not familiar with your climate, but if the bees are clustered for winter, I'd leave them in their hive and not disturb them until next spring. At this time of year, it always does more harm than good unless they are starving.

Insulation above the cluster might help. But a moisture quilt won't work on a top bar hive unless some top bars are removed to provide upward ventilation.

Good luck and let me know what you see and how things work out.


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## Finorknerbee (Aug 22, 2012)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

Howdy from Port Angeles.

Remove the water. No need for it in the hive this time of the year.

Did you feed granulated sugar all summer? I'm not sure if they can efficiently store it, but i have seen some crystallized sugar in cells of dead-out hives from time to time. Seems like syrup would be a better way to provide supplemental feed to a newly established hive. 

I use Langstroth hives, and I've tried insulating and wrapping. Neither seemed to be helpful with the moisture. Moldy boxes and wet lids were pretty normal. Recently however, I began making insulated telescoping covers with some 'passive' ventilation. For all I know, it's been done before, but i'll post some pictures soon. I staple strips of corrugated plastic signboard along the edge of the cover. I also cover the inner cover with dry sugar (only in winter). Seems to work well for my configuration, and i wonder if it could do the same for yours. My neighbor has a couple of top bar hives, but he hasn't had any trouble with moisture. He has a pretty large entrance size though (roughly 2 inches), but i'm sure that microclimate and sun exposure plays a big part as well. 


Good luck!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

The mold, of course, is indicative of a moisture problem. Dennis (BWrangler) is in Cheyenne, WY, a very dry climate (I used to be in somewhat the same climate in Laramie, WY and Mitchell, NE) I'm now in SE Nebraska a more moist climate than Western Nebraska or Eastern WY, but much drier than the Pacific northwest. I think you need advice from someone in a similar climate to yours. I will say this. Moist air rises and if you need to get rid of moisture I would let it out the top. It does not take a very large opening to do this. As to how much of an opening etc. someone from your climate is better qualified to answer than I am. You might also consider if there is water getting trapped on the bottom. Some 1/4" holes drilled in the lowest spots can clear that up.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

Mycroft, I am also a bit south of you but with a similar climate. Keep the water out of the hive. If they need water, they can find it just outside all winter long. I have used both top entrances (Michael Bush style) and quilt boxes. Either works very well in this climate. I started using both because the standard Lang setup with a bottom entrance and a small opening at the top made a wonderful mold factory. There was not enough air exchange to remove the excess moisture. It is not cold enough in this area to worry about needing insulation so I would skip it. As the bees eat honey their respiration will create enough moisture to soften any sugar block you put in the hive. As the bees eat the honey, the digested sugar in honey breaks down into water and carbon dioxide. I personally keep the entrances wide open in winter for more air exchange. Again, the relatively warm winters here don't require the hives to be really sealed up but the moisture has to be dealt with.


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## Mycroft Jones (Aug 22, 2015)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

Thank you for all your answers; I went to the shop yesterday and built some top ventilation boxes as per wdale's instructions. Not quite a quilt box, but definitely a top vent. Photos to follow soon.

If bees prefer bottom entrance, that might explain why honeybees aren't native to this area. The moisture overwhelms their instinctive responses. I could be wrong, but I recall hearing that we don't have any feral bees in this area.


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## Bowfinger (Apr 17, 2015)

*Re: Ventilation question for BWrangler & Mike Bush; getting light hive through winter*

here in north Florida, we are having a mild winter so far. The weather alternates between freezing at night and warm enough for bees to fly in the day. An early frost knocked out the goldenrod and other fall flowers. They were light, so I finally determined to feed them on Christmas day! Then I moved the two weak ones 50 miles south to my house, to avoid as much frosty temps ( it does make a difference) esp. since they layed a bunch of eggs after feeding them.

I noticed that in the morning when warming up water was running out of the hives. It was condensation from the empty plastic division feeders inside. I was concerned and I took them out today since it was in the 60s. Some mildew on the inside but hey it's Florida. Everything has mildew or mold right?

Now I read on one of these links where bees get water from condensation! Maybe I should have left them in. 

Bowfinger


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