# Today's Dead outs - CCD?



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

First hive was by it self, large cell, homeowner said it absconded on Thanksgiving day, he saw swarm fly off. No signs of bees or brood, ample stores left in both brood chambers. Was last years feral bait hive, produced good crop this year, but probably had swarmed also.










Second hive, Small Cell, on my trailer, with 20 LC hives, other SC hive on other side of trailer is thriving even after being divided. Also left full frames of stores and new honey.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

These sound more like absconds than CCD. One of the traits common to CCD is that the queen and a small cluster of young bees are left behind. In yours, I don't see that. They were empty of bees...right?
I understand the African bees have a propensity to abscond. Are you in an area that has those genetics? Mainly, I was thinking about the feral colony.


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## Wil (Dec 21, 2009)

By the pictures its hard to tell, was there any bees at all in the hive?

Have you had the honey tested for any chemicals or toxins?


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## woodmann98 (Jun 23, 2008)

I had five of my twelve hives like that, but in all of them i had maybe a softball size of bees dead on the frame. And maybe about 300 to 500 hundred dead bees on the sbb. i looked at all the bees, and did not see a queen. thought maybe she died a while back. lots of honey and pollin. three of the five hives second year packages, the other two where this springs swarms. the other seven are strong. i'm sure its something i did wrong, still learning.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>was there any bees at all in the hive?
not a bee and no sign of die off.

> i'm sure its something i did wrong, still learning.
It's nothing you did wrong. It's CCD which is the term for the mysterious die off of the last few years. I have been at it for 40 years and only seen it the last few years.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

With no brood left behind, it seems that they were queenless. Then the bees that were left vacated and took up residence with a hive that was queenright. I've heard that contaminated food within the hive will cause them to abscond. I had my share of hives that looked like yours in Oct., no bees, queen, or brood. Some had a queen and a couple hundred bees and lots/plenty of pollen and honey.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

If they abscond, won't they come back to rob out the honey?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Woodman99, I think you and odfrank may have different problems. If I’m not mistaken, Calaveras county is in the Sierra foothills….right? Cool days and cold nights right now. Those clusters of a few hundred bees may not have been enough to maintain warmth. If so, was there something you might have done? Maybe. It’s part of the learning process. If you don’t know why they failed, how can you possibly correct it next time? In late summer make sure they’re queenright and making brood. Check for varroa and treat as necessary. Make sure they have ample stores. As the weather cools make sure the populations are big enough to survive. Find out from other local beeks what their experience has been. Just my opinion.


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## dthompson (Feb 10, 2008)

odfrank, there are some things not typical, the group abscond and only 2/20?

When it's warm enough do a ramp test perhaps
Pick a hive close to an abscond, perhaps not entirely healthy and
set up a ramp as per hiving a swarm
Shake 3 frames onto the ramp
You are interested in the laggards, the last 10%
Do they show symptoms? (STR - sore tummy rub, ankle rub, (rear) feet too close together?)
If so, yes this is viral ccd
My bees have had this for 3 years, it's a pain
Lots more work, much less success. Lucky I only have few hives

dave


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

dthompson said:


> odfrank,
> If so, yes this is viral ccd


I have heard of DWV, but not viral CCD. Is there a cure? The bees do show those symptoms.


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## dthompson (Feb 10, 2008)

>The bees do show those symptoms.
Do you mean STR, ankle rub etc or what?

Most don't know if ccd is caused by virus, nosema, pesticides, or poor pollen
Some think that it is all of these factors
In my case I am sure (99.9%) that it is viral (only)
(because of neulogical symptoms and sensitivity to vitamin C)
Lots of C -- 10-20 gm/year/hive, more is better than less
I've written lots at bee-l, check archives there, and here as well

dave


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

This can not be CCD. CCD has a three primary indicators, 

one is that there is brood left behind, 

two is that there are a few live bees (very few) and no dead ones left behind,

three is that the leftover honey will not be eaten by other bees, even if left out in the sun in a busy bee yard.

Anything that doesn't hold up to all of those three indicators is not CCD. There are many other things that kill colonies or cause them to abscond, and you can't fix a problem you don't know about, so it is in everyone's best interests if they don't just blanket blame CCD for every deadout that comes their way and takes some time to figure out what's really going on. Every dead colony has a story to tell, and most beekeepers are well equipped to discover the cause of death if they're willing to take the time to examine all the evidence and possible causes that fit that evidence before jumping to conclusions.

In this case I think beemandan probably hit the nail on the head here because everything in your description fits with his explanation. If that is the case, then what you could have done is requeen (had you known earlier that is, but even knowing after the fact, you can build upon that to keep your eye out for the signs and requeen the next colony early). There may be other explanations as well, and a little bit of forensics work (having the honey tested) could reveal something else.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

We have had these descriptions of a hives's demise for many years. The 1st written and published books describe these conditions.
Winter. Spring. Summer, and Fall Dwindling
Eucalyptus poisoning
________________________
Later on we included this term:

Disappearing Disease. Do you recal what caused it?
Regards,
Ernie


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## dthompson (Feb 10, 2008)

> one is that there is brood left behind, 
And if the ccd crisis (abscond urge) happens in mid Nov what will you find?
Or are you saying that ccd can only happen in summer?

>There are many other things that kill colonies or cause them to abscond,
In the 25 years "before" (ccd) I don't recall ANY absconds
In the past 3 years I have had ~30 absconds and 60-80% winterkill
This is not anything I have seen before, what a pain

dave
PS No absconds since April, ~ 14 gms C fed(/hive)
Somewhat indicative


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

BEES4U said:


> We have had these descriptions of a hives's demise for many years. The 1st written and published books describe these conditions.
> Winter. Spring. Summer, and Fall Dwindling
> Eucalyptus poisoning
> Ernie


EUCALYPTUS POISONING??? huh?/?


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

dthompson said:


> And if the ccd crisis (abscond urge) happens in mid Nov what will you find?


First, absconding is not the same as CCD, as the queen is frequently still found along with a few bees in a CCD colony. Second, you will find the same thing.




dthompson said:


> Or are you saying that ccd can only happen in summer?


Not at all.



dthompson said:


> In the 25 years "before" (ccd) I don't recall ANY absconds
> In the past 3 years I have had ~30 absconds and 60-80% winterkill
> This is not anything I have seen before, what a pain


I haven't ever seen AFB before, but that doesn't mean I should blame it on CCD if I ever do encounter it. Not recognising something is all the more reason to look deeper into the cause of it than to simply brush it off as something you can't do anything about.


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## dthompson (Feb 10, 2008)

odfrank I'm gonna assume that's an implicit rather than explicit yes

It's funny that noone wants to talk about the "lewd" movement of their
bees legs, like it's an unmentionable, i'm not sure why

Not one person have confirmed or refuted!! my list of symptoms
why?

Anyway, if you have ccd then pay attention to rear legs
You will see symptoms

This does little good, the bees still have ccd
You have my sympathy, hell I have my sympathy

dave


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Do your bees have CCD? Beats me. I'm not arguing. I will repeat, though, that bees with African genetics are said to have a propensity to abscond....in any season.
Best of luck, in any case.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

IN the third pic is that ENTOMBED pollen -clean out a cell is it propolise covering brick red pollen RDY-B


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Entombed pollen! What does that indicate? I was seeing that in my deadouts this last summer and fall.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

it is a new fanamona-aprarentley from pollen exposed to chlorothalonil
which is a fungicide (brand name BRAVO) it indicates a microbial imbalance in the making of beebread -they are finding this in many unhealthy hives but they have feed entombed pollen to lab bees and they say no evidence that this is the problem -dennis vanengelsdrop has done work on this and you can google for more info 
to me it seams that the bees could just remove it -but they dont RDY-B


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I've noticed a red flowering eucalyptus blooming here. 
Are some varieties of eucalyptus poisonous too bees?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

dave:

As to the symptoms, I'll keep my ete for the legs. Swollen abdomens for sure. You might want to check their digestive systems. Another symptom is undigested pollen along with diarrhea or watery looking feces. When you pull out the stinger and look at the digestive system you'll see undigested pollen grains.

Jean-Marc


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Dave thanks for the ramp test descriptions and the comment on Vitamin C, I have never done that but sure will now. 

Having trouble accessing bee-l.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Ramp test??? who has three frames left to shake out???


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

I watched the film "Silence of the Bees" again, it mentioned that African Killer Bees are not bothered by Colony Collapse Disorder or "CCD" (at the time the film was made). The film also said that CCD is a virus and the tests when the film was made indicated it was "Israel Acute Paralysis Virus," the date the film was made is 2007 is it still thought that CCD is Israel Acute Paralysis Virus? 
Are there any treatments that work?


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## dthompson (Feb 10, 2008)

odfrank I thought you said you had 20 hives
If these 2 are your only hives my sympathy

>Are there any treatments that work?
Without BIG bucks there are few.
large doses of C is unpleasant for virus,
but short-lived. Cheap tho
NOT a cure, a treatment
Could you "vacinate" a Queen
I somehow don't think so
Breed survivors, but it's a big jump in genome
so a treatment is usefull so that you have some
left to breed from rather than little choice
(ie the 80% die-off senario)

> When you pull out the stinger 
If you do this and get a drop of feaces on your finger, smell it
If it is VERY stinky this is another symptom -- from the damaged guts

dave


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Myron Denny said:


> is it still thought that CCD is Israel Acute Paralysis Virus?


In the early samples of CCD colonies IAPV was found in a high percentage...approaching 100%. On the other hand they found many perfectly healthy colonies with IAPV. Last I heard, IAPV was not considered the single agent cause of CCD. I once heard Kim Flottum refer to CCD as 'death by a thousand cuts'. I think that is likely closer to the truth.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

My understanding of viruses is that they are not anything new. There is belief that viruses play a key roll in how living things evolve and adapt to their/its environment. Some of these new viruses can be very destructive to the host until it builds up some sort of immunity. 
Concerning the bee I'm not sure if the viruses we know are new other than putting a name to them. There have been around 20 of them found in the honeybee so far and I'm sure more will be discovered. Some of the ones that can be seen have been named others haven't. 
If these viruses have been around longer than thought with the bees showing very little ill effect in the past, I would think we should be looking for what has changed that's allowing them to run out of control.
I like the feeding vitamin c ideal. I know our own biology uses vitamin c to make interferon which helps control viruses but have no idea if this is the same in the honeybee.


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## dthompson (Feb 10, 2008)

> Kim Flottum refer to CCD as 'death by a thousand cuts'. I think that is likely closer to the truth.
I disagree, In my case I am quite sure that it is solely viral
Of course the bees can also be infected with nosema, have pesticide exposure, and
have poor pollen forage. This probably "muddies" the symptoms
None of this applies to my bees

> uses vitamin c to make interferon which helps control viruses but have no idea if this is the same in the honeybee
Likely not, probably differential toxicity
That is: C has low/very low toxicity for man or bees
but C has medium toxicity for virus
ergo LARGE doses

dave


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

dthompson said:


> I disagree, In my case I am quite sure that it is solely viral


And Dave Hackenberg is equally certain it is systemic pesticides. Many other beekeepers who've had CCD like symptoms have their own pet causes.
I am curious...where did you get the name viral CCD?


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

I checked with the ARS website in Baton Rouge to see if they had anything new, it looks to me they do. The website address is:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/News/docs.htm?docid=15572


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>And Dave Hackenberg is equally certain it is systemic pesticides

I have a hard time blaming systemic pesticides in my suburban setting. Yes, there are arborists applying Merit, and home owners applying Bayer Total Control, but it is all widespread and to the spot, not blanket treatment as in an agricultural setting. And why are only half the hives hit hard, with normal hives right next to dying ones? And why so bad in cold and rainy weather? 

My guess is VIRAL.


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

Pathogen Loads Higher in Bee Colonies Suffering from Colony Collapse Disorder
By Kim Kaplan
August 12 , 2009 
A higher total load of pathogens—viruses, bacteria and fungi—appears to have the strongest link with Colony Collapse Disorder found so far, according to a new study published by Agricultural Research Service (ARS) and university scientists.

The study was headed by Pennsylvania State University entomologist Dennis vanEngelsdorp and entomologist Jeff Pettis, geneticist Jay Evans and virologist Yanping Chen with the ARS Bee Research Laboratory in Beltsville, Md. They looked at more than 200 individual variables in 91 colonies from 13 apiaries in Florida and California, where many beekeepers overwinter their honey bees. Among the factors for which the researchers screened were bacteria, mites, Nosema (protozoan parasites), numerous viruses, nutrition status and 171 pesticides. Adult bees, wax comb, beebread (stored and processed pollen), and brood were all sampled.

No single variable was found consistently in only those honey bee colonies that had Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD)—a syndrome characterized by the sudden disappearance of adult honey bees in a colony—that has been devastating some beekeepers in the United States and other countries.

Among the colonies that had CCD, no single pathogen among those screened had a higher prevalence. Nor was there a higher or lower prevalence of varroa mites, tracheal mites or spores from Nosema species, nor a higher total load of these parasites and pathogens. Nosema has been implicated in colony die-offs in Spain, but it has not been closely associated with CCD in the United States.

But overall, CCD colonies were co-infected with a greater number of pathogens—bacteria, microparasites like Nosema, and viruses. Overall, 55 percent of CCD colonies were infected with three or more viruses, compared to 28 percent of non-CCD colonies. The researchers also found detectable levels of residues from 50 different pesticides in all of the sampled colonies. There was no association between increased pesticide levels and CCD. 

In fact, the pyrethroid insecticide Esfenvalerate, used for a wide variety of pests such as moths, flies, beetles and other insects on vegetable, fruit and nut crops, was more prevalent in the wax in non-CCD colonies. This insecticide was found in 32 percent of non-CCD colonies, compared with 5 percent of the CCD colonies. 

Coumaphos, which is used to treat varroa mites in honey bees, was also found in higher levels in non-CCD colonies.

As for pathogen levels, what the study cannot show is whether the higher pathogen load was involved in the cause of CCD or was a result of CCD, according to vanEngelsdorp. Higher pathogen loads are likely to have caused CCD symptoms, but what causes the bees to become infected with so many pathogens is still not known, he added.

While the study’s results don’t indicate a specific cause of CCD, the results do help scientists narrow the direction of future CCD research by showing that some possible causes are less likely, added Pettis.

ARS is the principal intramural scientific research agency of the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

The scientific article can be found at http://www.plosone.org/article/info...1;jsessionid=FD7EE265CBA1AC5323F39D61A272CDAF.

A report that summarizes research progress on CCD can be found at http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/br/ccd/ccd_progressreport.pdf.



[Top] 

Last Modified: 08/12/2009


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> The number of managed honey bee colonies has dropped from 5 million in the1940s to only 2.5 million today. At the same time, the call for hives to supply pollination service has continued to climb. This means honey bee colonies are trucked farther and more often than ever before.


http://www.ars.usda.gov/News/docs.htm?docid=15572

Seems like the honeybee has been on a steady decline for a while.

Some interesting info on vitamin c supplementation.



> EFFECT OF DIETARY VITAMIN C LEVELS
> ON THE RATE OF BROOD PRODUCTION
> OF FREE-FLYING AND CONFINED COLONIES
> OF HONEY BEES
> ...


http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/1985/04/Apidologie_0044-8435_1985_16_4_ART0003.pdf

It would be great if we had this kind of information for North America and probably something we should look at closely for our bees. Also an interesting read.

NUTRITIONAL REQUIREMENTS OF HONEY BEES

http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/pollen/nutrition.html


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## dthompson (Feb 10, 2008)

>with normal hives right next to dying ones
Just give it a few months, < then 1 year

The vanEngelsdorp,Pettis, Evans, Chen study did
show that a large risk factor was to be "close" to a ccd hive
That is: In a yard with ccd the living hives had a 3x chance
of "getting" ccd compared to a yard without ccd
The chance was worse for hives side by side
Their study exonerated pesticides as far as I can see

Watch the rear legs

dave


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

odfrank and dthompson, I am not disputing that you guys have some sick bees. 

Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD)—a syndrome characterized by the sudden disappearance of adult honey bees in a colony
Add to that that there is not any evidence in the immediate area of the hive of dead and dying bees. They just leave and never return. odfrank posted photos of dead bees all around his hives. And he had two that were total absconds. 

Whether or not you have a viral, bacterial, nutrition or parasite problem....it doesn't sound like classic CCD. Have you guys sent off samples to your respective agricultural testing agencies?


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

Will someone with a lot more computer than I have read and condence the following into a brief paragraph or two. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/br/ccd/cc...ressreport.pdf.

I have it downloaded but cannot read it???
Myron Denny


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*Exciting new video added to this thread*

Hollywood here I come!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj4fGHskXFw


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Myron Denny said:


> Will someone with a lot more computer than I have read and condence the following into a brief paragraph or two. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/br/ccd/cc...ressreport.pdf.
> 
> I have it downloaded but cannot read it???
> Myron Denny


Myron,

Go here http://get.adobe.com/reader/ and download the "Adobe Reader"




Joe


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## upperiver (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: Exciting new video added to this thread*

Your hive pictures and description look exactly like mine except that by the time I opened the hive the bees were dead. There was just a little less than golfball sized cluster and no other bees. Tons of honey, various stages of dead brood, and there was a empty queen cell.

In November everything was fine except for some vicious yellow jackets eating some of the bees. Possibly they weakened the population or maybe ate the queen and that's why they made a new queen??

Then in December we had some very cold weather for here--in the low 20's. Maybe they were already dead by then--I don't know.

This is my first year and I was so hopeful that I could get them through the winter. Oh well, I guess I'll keep trying.

There are a lot of frames of capped honey. Can I just go ahead and harvest it?


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

Dont think i read about your mite treatments-what are you doing -looks like mites-RDY-B 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=482486#post482486


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

here is a link to a site that specializes in testing for ccd and chemicals, send them a sample and let us know the results

http://www.beealert.info/

1620 Rodgers Street (406) 541‐3160 Tel
Suite 1 (406) 541‐3161 Fax
Missoula, MT 59801 [email protected]

mike syracuse


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

RDY-B said:


> Dont think i read about your mite treatments-what are you doing -looks like mites-RDY-B
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=482486#post482486


I don't treat for mites. But I have had mites for 15 years and this winter massive die off only for 3 years. Mite die off is slow and extended, this is sudden and quick. It is probably mite related, but indirectly. I have only found two or three mites on SBB trays inspected.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

Your hives built a high viral level -because you dont treat for mites -we already know mites vector viruses-even with low mite count virus exists-the added STRESS from cold and wet is taking its toll-not to mention added confinement which has its own problems -your problem is in direct relation to mites RDY-B


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## Jim Koenig (Dec 18, 2009)

I had a similar die off in one of my hives this fall. The hive was started as a 2-pound package in the first week of April. It built up great and I harvested 266 pounds of honey from it until the last week of August. At that time the hive was given another deep for winter stores and they almost filled that deep in September, 8 of the 10 frames had capped honey. I saw bees flying from the hive until it got to cold to fly.
Checked the hive in early December and they were dead. There was two small clusters in hive, almost no brood, lots of bee bread and honey. I did find some mites under the SBB, but not very many.

I have lost hives in early winter before, usually they have a pretty substantial cluster of bees over two to three frames. Never seen one like this where there was almost no bees left.:scratch:


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

*Jim's packages*

Jim,
Over 300 lbs of honey made from a 2 lbs package. Who were the packages from and what stock were the queens from. I really need to get some of those. WOW!!!


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

By all means tell us where you got that package!!!!!!


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## Jim Koenig (Dec 18, 2009)

The package was brought to Wisconsin from California by Don Cone , I don't know which breeder he buys them from.


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

Anyway you can find out? All kinds of package suppliers are going to claim those bees came from their place! While you are at it what did the queen look like, dark or light? And how did you start them?


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## IBRed (May 14, 2009)

What are you guys going to do with the frames of capped/uncapped honey? I to am experiencing the same symptoms, in three of my top bar hives. At the moment, mine are in the freezer.


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## upperiver (Dec 22, 2009)

I used the crush and strain method since I don't have an extractor and also because most of the frames were not on plastic foundation--the comb was completelly drawn from a starter strip. I just cut it out which pretty much crushes it, then strain it into a bucket with a nylon mesh paint strainer.

I separate the uncapped honey from the capped. I made some great baklava from the uncapped.

I'm saving the wax for something someday.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

IBRed said:


> What are you guys going to do with the frames of capped/uncapped honey? I to am experiencing the same symptoms, in three of my top bar hives. At the moment, mine are in the freezer.


I have been re-using mine and so far do not recognize any symptoms of them being overly contagious. I lost colonies the same way on brand new combs. It seems to me to be a virus that is so contagious that the susceptible colonies are going to get it whether or not they have infected combs. I have some new starts on last years old combs that are going fine.
If it is contagious like AFB, we all have a hell of a lot of new equipment to build.


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## Jim Koenig (Dec 18, 2009)

Myron Denny said:


> Anyway you can find out? All kinds of package suppliers are going to claim those bees came from their place! While you are at it what did the queen look like, dark or light? And how did you start them?


I will find out the source when I order my packages this spring. The queen was more orange than black, pretty much the typical Italian. 

I put the package in a deep super that had little honey and some bee bread left in it, I fed them about 2 quarts of sugar syrup until the I saw them collecting pollen and then gave them another deep for a brood super.

I am still very dissapointed in losing this hive.


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