# Tax Numbers and accouting



## Sweet Fields (Sep 22, 2014)

OK - so at what point do I need to get a tax identification number? I know the honey is not taxed because it is food. We want to begin selling candles at craft shows and I believe I will need a tax number at that point. Also, can anyone give me some insight as to what actually needs to be accounted for once I have a tax number? Do I need to keep track of the honey AND candles or just whatever is actually taxed? Thanks for any help!


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

SweetFields, I think you may be asking the wrong question.
The question for you is, "How do I set up a small business in N.Y.?
Tax I.D. is but one small aspect.
Look up the Small Business Administration and connect with a SCORE councilor. (Free coaching)
Running a small business can be very rewarding IF everything is in order.
Best of success to ya!


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## Sweet Fields (Sep 22, 2014)

Thanks Harry - that is what I am leaning to, getting some advice from the small business folks around here. Trying to go commercial after hobby for 30 years, and its a little stressful!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you are referring to a federal tax id, you have one. It's your SSN. You don't need an employer tax id unless you have employees. If you are asking about a state sales tax id that would depend on your state. In my state honey is not taxed so to sell just honey you don't need one. State's vary. Many states if you do business as anything other than your proper name you need a DBA (Doing Business As) registered with the State. Some may even require one for any business...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Information about sales tax requirements in New York state is here:

http://www.tax.ny.gov/pubs_and_bulls/tg_bulletins/st/do_i_need_to_register_for_sales_tax.htm


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## Sweet Fields (Sep 22, 2014)

Thanks Rader - I did a search but did not see that document anywhere. Good info


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## WillH (Jun 25, 2010)

You might also find the following helpful:
A guide to sales tax in New York State
http://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/sales/pub750.pdf


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## HungryBear (May 28, 2012)

In NY you will have to keep track of total sales, total non taxable sales, and then total that was taxed. You will have to report this every quarter, Unless your under $3000 of taxable sales for a year, or something like that.

You have to report every quarter, even if there is nothing to report. And dont miss one, they will take your house. The sales tax dept of NY dont mess around.

Also, if you sell alot, I would setup a account to just hold money, so you have it when you need to pay the sales tax, remember, that 8% or whatever, is not your money, its the states, alot of people forgot that and then get in trouble later when its time to pay.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

HungryBear said:


> In NY you will have to keep track of total sales, total non taxable sales, and then total that was taxed.


so is sales tax due on nucs you sell??


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Yes Mike. NUCs are not food products. I always carry ST125 forms so those who have ag exemptions can fill it out and I dont have to collect sales tax.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

You can get a tax ID at IRS.ORG. You can file a tax return on either a schedule "C" or schedule "F" or both. If you keep good records you will see that you probably have substantial losses in your beekeeping operation. If you do the schedule "C" bit you have to make money 2 years out of 5 to avoid being considered a hobby. You can lose 1 million a year for the loss years and make $1 a year on the gain years.

If you are using any name other than the one you were given at birth an assumed name certificate filed with your county register of deeds will protect the name and meet the DBA requirements.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

You can get a tax ID at IRS.ORG. You can file a tax return on either a schedule "C" or schedule "F" or both. If you keep good records you will see that you probably have substantial losses in your beekeeping operation. If you do the schedule "C" bit you have to make money 2 years out of 5 to avoid being considered a hobby. You can lose 1 million a year for the loss years and make $1 a year on the gain years.

If you are using any name other than the one you were given at birth an assumed name certificate filed with your county register of deeds will protect the name and meet the DBA requirements.


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## HungryBear (May 28, 2012)

BMAC said:


> Yes Mike. NUCs are not food products. I always carry ST125 forms so those who have ag exemptions can fill it out and I dont have to collect sales tax.


I thought the state viewed honeybees as live stock? If so, they are sales tax exempt. 

Does BetterBee charge tax on queens, nuc's or packages? I dunno if they do or not.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Im not quite sure how the state views it, but our accountant/tax person told us to collect sales tax on NUC sales.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I'm sure every state is different. I bought a hive and a nuc this spring and the seller collected sales tax on the woodenware portion but not the bees.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The linked document from NY State Dept of Taxation and Finance is primarily about property taxes and beekeeping, but note that footnote (1) does say that bees are defined as an "_agricultural commodity_".

http://www.tax.ny.gov/pubs_and_bulls/orpts/legal_opinions/v11/84.htm


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

HungryBear said:


> I thought the state viewed honeybees as live stock? If so, they are sales tax exempt.
> 
> Does BetterBee charge tax on queens, nuc's or packages? I dunno if they do or not.


I've never bought bees in N.Y. so don't know. This would seem to be a good question for the head beekeeper in the state Mr. Cappy. anyone want to send him an email and get a response so that we can have it in black and white. I would but I don't seem to be getting any responses. I will submit the question to the AIAC chairman for inclusiong(bet they don't) at the next meeting.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

BMAC said:


> Im not quite sure how the state views it


From what I can see depending on which document you read, sometimes they are livestock, sometimes not, I can't figure out which doc. to use. I'm pretty sure though if you do have to charge the sales tax, you have to charge by the bee, not by the nuc, so better start counting the bees. :s


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I've never bought bees in N.Y. so don't know. This would seem to be a good question for the head beekeeper in the state Mr. Cappy. anyone want to send him an email and get a response so that we can have it in black and white. I would but I don't seem to be getting any responses. I will submit the question to the AIAC chairman for inclusiong(bet they don't) at the next meeting.


I would not expect someone whose job it is to regulate bee diseases to know State Tax Law and I would bet he would have to get his wording from the Ag&Mkts Legal Division before saying anything about it.

Who in NY Winters bees indoors so they can get Property Tax relief? No one I know. And does that mean that Honey Houses and other buildings specifically built for the support of an agricultural business, ie beekeeping, do not qualify for the ten year property tax relief?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I would not expect someone whose job it is to regulate bee diseases to know State Tax Law and I would bet he would have to get his wording from the Ag&Mkts Legal Division before saying anything about it.


 we are talking about bees correct, he does work for Ag&Mkts doesn't he? he is our contact with the Govt. isn't he? who would you contact, I thought about the tax dept, but I doubt you could get anything in writing. The document Rader posted said it was the realm of the Ag&Mkts to determine if these things are taxed. So I would expect Cappy to be the perfect person to contact for this information.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

from the link provided my Rader "Honey may be an eligible "crop" for the purposes of the agricultural assessment program when produced for sale by a qualified commercial farm, provided the farmer's honey bee colonies are used in conjunction with the farmer's agricultural land.

A building or structure used as winter storage for colonies of commercial honey bees that produce agricultural commodities for sale may qualify for the farm structures and buildings exemption if the assessor determines that the structure is essential to the operation of lands actively devoted to agricultural or horticultural use and that it is actually used and occupied to carry out such operation."

note Honey may be an eligible "crop" when produced by a qualified commercial farm used in conjunction with the farmers agricultural land.

may be doesn't cut it, who is a qualified commercial farm, and the third part says to me unless the farmer has the bees on his land you aren't covered. They also say somewhere in there that you have to have 5 acres, I can show you another document that says 7 acres, I can show another document that says you don't count unless you have income over If I remember correctly $50,000, and thats just the doc's I have run across. none use words like honey or bees are an eligible crop. I deal in black and white, I'm sure someone somewhere knows where it's written down.

here is one of the requirements from n.y. law
The annual gross sales of agricultural products must average $10,000 or more for the preceding 2 years. If an agricultural enterprise is less than 7 acres, it may qualify if average annual gross sales equal $50,000 or more.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> So I would expect Cappy to be the perfect person to contact for this information.


Expectations lead to disappointment. Paul Cappy can't say certain things if those things are not w/in the scope of his office and if the information you want from him is not approved of by the Legal Division. You might think that just because we are talking about bees and beekeeping that Paul Cappy aught to be the go to guy on this subject, and he may be, but to actually expect that he can or will say something is and has not been born out by my experience w/ the NYS Dept of Ag&Mkts.

Maybe you should come to the eshpa Fall Mtng and ask him about this in front of the assembled beekeepers who will also be there. Then you might get some sort of answer. Likely as not, "I don't know." or "I can't say." or even "Not my Department." is what you will get.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> from the link provided my Rader "Honey may be an eligible "crop" for the purposes of the agricultural assessment program when produced for sale by a qualified commercial farm, provided the farmer's honey bee colonies are used in conjunction with the farmer's agricultural land.
> 
> A building or structure used as winter storage for colonies of commercial honey bees that produce agricultural commodities for sale may qualify for the farm structures and buildings exemption if the assessor determines that the structure is essential to the operation of lands actively devoted to agricultural or horticultural use and that it is actually used and occupied to carry out such operation."
> 
> ...


And if you keep your bees in a storage unit over Winter on said property. Bunk. I am sure that buildings on land where bees aren't kept is also eligible for Tax Relief, the STAR Program.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe you should come to the eshpa Fall Mtng and ask him about this in front of the assembled beekeepers who will also be there. Then you might get some sort of answer. Likely as not, "I don't know." or "I can't say." or even "Not my Department." is what you will get.


Maybe you could ask him as I won't be there, but to be a help to all N.Y. beeks that have sold Nucs. I will contact the N.Y. tax dept and get a ruling. Now the important question is, if the ruling says you have to collect sales tax on nuc sales, and going on the comments above about how efficient they are, how many of you beeks that have sold nucs over the years will be contacted to pay all the sales tax owed on all those nucs that no one paid in:lookout: just saying.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't know that anyone other than BMAC collects sales tax on nucs in NYS. Call Wixson Honey Co. and ask Jerry. Or call BetterBee and ask them what they do. If selling nucs requires Sales Tax Collection, who collects it the Wholesaler or the Retailer?

I am sure that most of "all N.Y. beeks that have sold Nucs" would rather I not stir the pot or open a can of worms.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I am sure that most of "all N.Y. beeks that have sold Nucs" would rather I not stir the pot or open a can of worms.


but wouldn't you and all beeks like to be doing things legal? Thats why I though Cappy was a better source to go to. besides I figured If I contacted the Tax dept, and asked if I should charge a tax on Nuc's sold, someone from the federal govt would stop in. :shhhh:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sure. And I have no reason to think we aren't. I never collected sales tax when I sold used bee equipment. I don't know anyone who ever has. I don't collect sales tax when I sell jars. Who does? Now am I going to get a visit from an IRS Agent? You can't have it both ways. Delving into something you might aught to have been doing all along and then thinking we should whisper about it because the IRS and NYSRS might be reading beesource. Yer funny.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Some years ago when my beekeeping income reached a point that I could no longer ignore it, I began reporting and paying sales tax in GA. I collect 3% on retail honey and 7% on everything else.....including nucs. A side effect was when my local county property tax assessor sent me a sheet demanding that I list all the equipment I own that I use to produce my honey....hives, extractors....well everything. I asked the local guy how I came to be on their radar and he said 'you started reporting sales tax and so we know that you must have some taxable property used to generate those sales.' As I said to him....'no good deed goes unpunished'. I now file annual property tax reports.
I just started paying myself officially this year. I have gotten all the state and fed numbers to properly report and pay withholding taxes. Heaven knows who'll come knocking on my door as a result of that.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

wildbranch2007 said:


> but wouldn't you and all beeks like to be doing things legal? Thats why I though Cappy was a better source to go to. besides I figured If I contacted the Tax dept, and asked if I should charge a tax on Nuc's sold, someone from the federal govt would stop in. :shhhh:


I like to keep it on the legal side. Which is why I follow the advice of the professional tax representatives I pay.


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## HungryBear (May 28, 2012)

BMAC said:


> I like to keep it on the legal side. Which is why I follow the advice of the professional tax representatives I pay.


Same here BMAC... same here. And that goes for a lawyer too.



wildbranch2007 said:


> but wouldn't you and all beeks like to be doing things legal? Thats why I though Cappy was a better source to go to. besides I figured If I contacted the Tax dept, and asked if I should charge a tax on Nuc's sold, someone from the federal govt would stop in. :shhhh:


I think if you do this, your going to have to make the argument that bees are livestock and don't qualify for sales tax. Because I doubt anyone there(at the tax office you call) are going to know what a nuc is, or for that matter, that honey bees are actually sold...

I to, think you are stirring up the pot by calling. I think the better thing to do is call Betterbee or dadant's ny office and ask them, I think if you follow what they are doing then you could make a case that you did research it and did what the current market is doing, if for some reason it was not right.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I would think nucs would be considered farm animals and not taxed. Now if you were just selling nuc boxes with no bees I see where it would be taxed. That's the way I understand or at least the way I have been doing it here in Florida. I know each state is a little different when it comes to sales tax.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

HungryBear said:


> I think if you do this, your going to have to make the argument that bees are livestock and don't qualify for sales tax. Because I doubt anyone there(at the tax office you call) are going to know what a nuc is, or for that matter, that honey bees are actually sold...


I think I have found the answer.
http://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/sales/pub750.pdf

However, if a farmer sells taxable tangible personal property such as hay,
livestock, plants, shrubs, trees, homemade crafts, or items such as candy and
other confections, or sells food or drink for consumption on the premises
where sold, then the farmer must register for sales tax purposes and collect
sales tax on sales of taxable tangible personal property and services, or
taxable food and drink.


this says if you sell livestock, and everyone keeps saying bees are livestock, you must collect sales tax or have everyone fill out the st-125.


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## themrbee (Oct 20, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Who in NY Winters bees indoors so they can get Property Tax relief? No one I know.


http://www.beesource.com/forums/member.php?83413-jgibbsbees


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Indoors? I didn't know that. I guess that ruling was written specifically for someone like you. Do you know any others?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

In nys we don't pay sales tax on anything bee related. when we buy a truck with agr plates no sales tax is paid at the dmv. for anything needed for beekeeping a state form st-125 is given to the seller for their file. In post #32 the term for consumption on premisises voids anything we do. this would apply to all commercial beekeepers. If you feel nys needs your money give them extra tax money. If you sell a jar of honey its the same as buying food from a store. If they make a sandwich for ya then ya pay tax. If we we buy a saw at lowes for making bee equip we are on file as tax exempt and no tax is paid. real simple.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

beeware10 said:


> this would apply to all commercial beekeepers.


true but the people that are buying nucs are not commercial beekeepers, at least not the ones I have seen buying nucs.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

If I give anyone the nys tax form st-125 it releases them from any tax responsibility and puts the burden on the buyer.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

In WA State

Sales of Insects: 
The sale of insects such as leaf-cutter bees for the purpose of pollination to a farmer is subject to the wholesaling B&O tax. A farmers’ exemption certificate, a copy of a valid reseller permit, or other approved exemption certificate must be given to the seller.

However, sales of honey bee products by “eligible apiarists” are exempt from B&O tax. This exemption expires July 1, 2017. 

Pollination Services: Beekeepers provide bees (usually honey bees) to farmers for the purpose of pollination. Generally, the income of the beekeeper is subject to B&O tax under the service and other activities classification, as a horticultural service. However income received by an eligible apiarist for providing bee pollination services is exempt from B&O tax. This exemption expires July 1, 2017.

Sales/Use Tax Exemptions
Sales and use tax exemptions are provided for the following:

Purchases of bees by an eligible apiarist.
Purchases of feed used by an eligible apiarist in the raising of a bee colony used to make honey products.


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