# 8 frame or 10 frame



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I'm trying to make things easier since I'm new and also since I'm building my own boxes and have read alot on going with all med. boxes for everything . I think it would be easier for me all around , so now do I go with 8 or 10 frame is there any down side to 8 frame med for all boxes . This may be all wrong but I thought I read that a 8 frame doesn't offer the insulation from cold of a 10 frame box in the winter , I don't want to do anything that would hurt them from surviving the winter .


----------



## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

Beekeepers usually go with 8 frame because of weight. Much lighter to pick up and easier on the back. I've heard the opposite about winter survival. I think it's a matter of preference. I prefer 10's. It's like the metric system. Easier.


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

The down side to 8 frames is that you need 20% more equipment to run the same hives. 

As far as all mediums go; that is the dumbest idea since man first thought that keeping stinging insects was a good idea  Combine the two (8 frames and all mediums) and you now need 35% more equipment to run the same hives. 

These are purely my opinion though... having tried both configurations. And Dnichols is correct; it is harder to winter bees on smaller equipment in northern climates.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Are you using med or deep brood boxes. Any reason for the 10 over the 8 .


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I use all mediums, 10 frame. I wouldn't go 8 if you stay with mediums. Maybe I'm not northern enough for bluegrass, but I haven't noticed any difference in wintering with mediums. Easier on my back.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

OK to me it sounds like all medium 10 frame would be a good standard setup as I see the 8 frame boxes vary in size a little and not as popular , then if I run into some good used boxes they will all fit my stuff and it will save my back . Thanks


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

You will find a greater selection of hive accessory equipment (top feeders, queen excluders, etc) by sticking with 10 frame vs. a more limited selection in 8 frame.


----------



## Steven Tervort (Feb 16, 2012)

I like 10-frame... only because that is the only style I have tried. Down the road, if you decide that 10-frame equipment does not suit you, you could switch to 8-frame equipment by cutting down your existing boxes. You do not have this luxury if you start with 8-frame equipment.


----------



## Slee (Jun 22, 2009)

Rule of thumb for me is, how old are you? If you are young and strong use 10 frame deeps. If you are older, or you do not have a lot of upper body strength use the 10 frame medium.

I'm not that old, but I sometimes have some back pain. I am slowly switching over to mediums.


----------



## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

Slee said:


> Rule of thumb for me is, how old are you? If you are young and strong use 10 frame deeps. If you are older, or you do not have a lot of upper body strength use the 10 frame medium.
> 
> I'm not that old, but I sometimes have some back pain. I am slowly switching over to mediums.


I'm already thinking about shallows.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Great, I'll go with med. 10 frame, and I see Dadant does list cut comb foundation for med. supers and the availability of accessories is another plus , sounds like the way to go . I hope there is know problems with cut comb on med.size frames and foundation instead of shallows ?


----------



## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I use 8 frame mainly for weight reasons. Much easier to pack around. But I am just a back yard kind of operation. If I was commercial, I would do 10's. As for availability, I have not found any problems getting anything.


----------



## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

I am using some mediums this year for cut comb. There will be some waste if you plan on packing them in the comb boxes. If you just add some to your honey jar not so much.


----------



## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

build yourself 10 frame deeps and see how it goes. from there you can cut down to any thing else, as you figure just what suits your beekeeping style.


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Any of the combinations will work fine. If you have a preference, go with it. The majority of beekeepers use ten frames equipment. I use 8 frame deeps and like them fine. No right or wrong, its personal preference (let age be your guide).


----------



## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

laketrout said:


> I'm trying to make things easier since I'm new and also since I'm building my own boxes and have read alot on going with all med. boxes for everything . I think it would be easier for me all around , so now do I go with 8 or 10 frame is there any down side to 8 frame med for all boxes . This may be all wrong but I thought I read that a 8 frame doesn't offer the insulation from cold of a 10 frame box in the winter , I don't want to do anything that would hurt them from surviving the winter .


It has been my experience the bees don't like to pull the outer two frames out on 10 frame equipment. It is true, you can rotate the empty outer frames back to the inside, and they will pull them out. 

For me, lifting eight frame equipment is just easier, even an eight frame deep does not feel as cumbersome to lift as a full 10 frame medium. Perhaps the eight frame equipment is just easier to get a handle on?

Since I started with 10 frame deep equipment, I run mostly eight frame deeps for my brood boxes, eight frame meds for supers. That is because I can swap brood frames, splits and so forth with my 10 frame equipment. 

Our climate zone is a six. For me, eight frame equipment overwinters successfully the same as 10 frame equipment. We have successfully overwintered bees in seven frame deep nucs.

Too bad there is not a way you could spend time working with both eight and 10 frame equipment.

HTH,

Shane


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

You can't go wrong with 8 frame hives, bees like'em better!


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Beekeepers now days just do not have any backbone. Bro Adam was 86 years old and still using 11.75" deep 12 frame boxes.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Didn't Brother Adam have lots of helpers doing the actual heavy lifting?

When I started beekeeping, at 9 y.0. it was with the usual 10-frame deeps. My hives were on top of a garden shed. I could not carry entire supers up there or down from there empty of bees/honey or full of the same. I had to move everything one piece at a time - boxes, frames, etc. Quite easy, but very tedious.

A few years later, it became a little easier after reading a "Gleaning in Bee Culture" article about using all medium supers, and trying it. But at the same time I grew older and quite a bit stronger, so it wasn't too much of an issue.

Now the bees aren't on a garden shed, and I'm very much older, and after reading Michael Bush about using all medium 8-frame equipment. I tried it and like it very much. I have a few pieces of 10-frame equipment, mostly to remind me that it is easier to lift an 8-frame deep of honey than even a 10-frame medium of honey, because more of the weight is closer to your body and that makes it easier to manage.


----------



## hlhart2014 (Jun 11, 2012)

I started with a 10 frame traditional hive and just bought my first 8 frame hive...I did order some 8 frame deeps though so they are not all mediums. The lure of lighter equipment for my weakling back was irresistable.


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I bet Bro Adam didn't have up to 20 hives on a four story rooftop with no elevator either.


----------



## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

I'm new - but decided on 8 frame mediums. For the weight and also to standardize my equipment. I only need one size box and only need one size frames. Everything is the same, no mixing and matching.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

No matter how old you are, unless you don't plan to live past 40, I'd go with eight frame mediums... but that's me. First I converted to all mediums. Then I converted to all eight frames. I've never regretted it.


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Charlie B said:


> I bet Bro Adam didn't have up to 20 hives on a four story rooftop with no elevator either.


Nope; worse. He kept hundreds of hives on Dartmoor where they were not accessible by motor vehicle. But Monks tend to embrace physical challenges.


----------



## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

isn't it great theres a size to fit every ones style and needs. myself i will stick with 10 frame deeps.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Now that I decided on 10 frame med for all my boxes do I install my first package into just one med box for my brood chamber , wondering if there is enough room for all those bees !! and then expect to add another med when things get going .


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Yes, there is plenty of room in one medium for the installation of a new package. Consider that a 10 frame medium is at least twice the volume of the box those package bees were shipped in. Additionally, counting the space occupied by the feeder can of HFCS that is in the package box allows the bees even more space.


----------



## sweetas (Apr 16, 2012)

Its primarily down to weight, if you are happy with a 10F full depth go for it. I can lift a 10F FD but I need to be carefull. A 8 F 3/4 size (WSP in Australia ) is much easier to move with limited care.


----------



## Javin007 (Mar 14, 2013)

bluegrass said:


> The down side to 8 frames is that you need 20% more equipment to run the same hives.
> 
> As far as all mediums go; that is the dumbest idea since man first thought that keeping stinging insects was a good idea  Combine the two (8 frames and all mediums) and you now need 35% more equipment to run the same hives.
> 
> These are purely my opinion though... having tried both configurations. And Dnichols is correct; it is harder to winter bees on smaller equipment in northern climates.



I guess that makes me and a lot of other bee keepers pretty stupid. 

Laketrout: I see you're in PA. Your winters there can vary pretty significantly depending on where in the state you are. If you have the more gentile "Virginia" like winters, I wouldn't worry too much about using the 8 frame. If a winter's particularly bad, you can always add protection to the hive later. If you were much further north, or if you get ugly winters where you are (more than a couple feet of snow in the year) I'd personally stick with the 10 frame if my back could handle it. Bees will use honey not only as food, but as insulation. This is why you'll sometimes see starve-outs where the bees didn't move horizontally, and starved to death just inches from full frames of honey. Typically, it's the frames against the walls that are left full. The bees aren't so much ignoring the honey as they're avoiding the cold of the outer walls and their programming doesn't allow them to weigh the variables. 10 frames give you that extra frame of insulation on either side.

As for sticking with all mediums, there's other reasons to do that that don't involve just the weight of the hives. For instance, I add my empty frames to the BOTTOM of the hives, as I prefer not to use "honey supers" and queen excluders. (Queen excluders more rapidly wear down the wings of the bees that have to squeeze through them shortening their lifespan.) Bees naturally want to build new comb "downward" and the queen bee will naturally prefer to lay in newer comb. By rotating the hive bodies upwards, I have no problem with queens laying in the honey frames as they naturally keep themselves towards the bottom. Rotating deeps would be incredibly difficult. Using this method, I can keep fresh wax in my hives instead of the old, black, pesticide filled stuff that gets more and more toxic from years of use, and during harvest I also end up with sell-able (albiet darker) beeswax. 

And whether you buy into that whole "it takes x pounds of honey to make 1 pound of wax" mantra (I've heard everything from 6 to 16 - no real studies have been done) the fact is that a hive body full of honey in naturally drawn comb has a miniscule amount of wax in it. I'll take the few ounces of honey lost for a healthy hive any day. The bees will have plenty of room to store the spring rush (in the now empty cells of last year's overwintering stores) as they build the new comb. (Note that the new comb is not typically built by the foragers, so you are not taking away from their ability to collect.) 

Every beekeeper has their own method of keeping bees, and every beekeeper has their _reasons_ for keeping them that way. My reasons are based on 15+ years of research. Still, if your method works for you, I would not call it "stupid." Don't be afraid to experiment, Laketrout. (Although, I wouldn't recommend using my method of experimenting on ALL of your hives simultaneously... It can end poorly, and makes for a very expensive spring.) Just because something's "always been done that way" doesn't necessarily make it "right." Bees were kept for over 5000 years in the same basic way until Johann Dzierzon invented the first movable frame hive - which would ultimately lead to the development of the Langstroth. If we had everything figured out and perfected already we wouldn't be worried about CCD, so clearly there's room for experimentation. 

Have fun!

http://fdsmagissues.feedstuffs.com/fds/PastIssues/FDS8034/fds03_8034.pdf
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-08/ps-pbu081408.php
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080818101323.htm
http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/bees/honey-bee-pesticides-55081801


----------



## Javin007 (Mar 14, 2013)

You're exactly right. Remove three frames, spritz the bees liberally with sugar water, then dump them in gently (there's no reason to slam them around like you see on all the YouTube videos). There will be a handful of stragglers still in the package. Lay the package by the entrance, and put a stick in the package leaning against the entrance for the stragglers to climb up. Once the bees have gotten themselves cleaned up, they'll begin fanning at the entrance to release pheromones to mark their new hive. The others will find their way home easily enough. Now gently and slowly replace your three frames and the bees will move out of the way. Prop your queen cage in there (making sure they can easily get to the candy plug) and close everything up! Come back in three days to remove the queen cage. If she's not been released yet, CAREFULLY release her yourself. (She CAN fly away if you're not careful, slow, and gentle - I have yet to lose one this way, but I've heard horror stories.) I just use a screw to carefully scrape out the excess fondant that they haven't eaten, and then place the cage back into the hive for a day or two.

When putting in your first package, you won't even have to wear protective gear. I've not _yet_ gotten tagged inserting a package, even with bees that ultimately ended up being grumpy. ("Yet" is no doubt the operative word, though. )


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Thanks for all the help , I see there are alot of ways to manage bees , I'll be learning for a long time , Gavin thanks for taking the time to explain your methods it will all come in handy I'm sure.


----------



## MikeTheBeekeeper (May 18, 2011)

If you're just going to be a hobbyist I suggest 8 frame, as it is lighter. If you're thinking of becoming commercial I suggest 10.

I only have 20 hives but they're all 10 frame hives.


----------



## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

laketrout said:


> I see there are alot of ways to manage bees



There is an old axiom, ask three different beekeepers the same question, and you will get at least four answers. 

Shane


----------



## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

The only downside is the need for more boxes and frames. If you only have a few hives this is not really a big deal. 
The main thing is to use one or the other. I have several 8 frame hives but, most of them are 10frame. It becomes aggravating when going to out yards trying to make sure I have the right size boxes with me. I try to keep all the 8 frame hives at home so this is less of an issue. But, somehow they will invariably get moved to another yard. 

The bees really don't care which size box you use. If I was able to start over now. I would go with 8frame deeps for brood and mediums for supers. That way I could still use standard nucs, and would only need two boxes and 16 frames for brood. The more hives you get the more that extra box and frames are going to add up. JMHO


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Javin I do get nasty winters here , this winter has been very cold and windy , I'm planning some kind of wind break for my hives , so maybe the 10 framers will help also .

Anyone have any wind break ideas , I have access to pallets if nothing else but would like something more permanent maybe a fence of some kind , I could use some ideas .


----------



## Javin007 (Mar 14, 2013)

laketrout said:


> Javin I do get nasty winters here , this winter has been very cold and windy , I'm planning some kind of wind break for my hives , so maybe the 10 framers will help also .
> 
> Anyone have any wind break ideas , I have access to pallets if nothing else but would like something more permanent maybe a fence of some kind , I could use some ideas .


Depending on the kind of work you want to put into it, building a three sided enclosure around your bee yard isn't a terrible idea. Do you have the option of planting some pine trees around it? Pine pollen is of little nutritional value to the bees, but they won't touch it unless they have no other option anyway. (They do still get plenty of propolis from it.) Pine trees make great wind breaks. If you're particularly patient, cottonwoods also make good windbreaks, as well as produce pollen that the bees like. Without knowing how much space you have to play with, I'd lean towards a natural wind break over trying to build some fencing. This said, if fencing is your only option, I'd just make sure it's a couple feet higher than the hive will ever be during the winter months. Fences also give you the option of propping up a roof to shield them from the sun during the hottest months. (You don't need a roof to keep the snow off, as snow is actually an excellent insulator.)


----------



## hideawayranch (Mar 5, 2013)

folks around here will use straw bales to create wind breaks.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I was afraid straw would bring in the mice !! I have lots of room , small pines would be the best but that takes time , I could transplant some 3 foot trees they would help right away with my new med supers.


----------



## hideawayranch (Mar 5, 2013)

opps yea, I didn't think of mice, good call!


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Barry said:


> I use all mediums, 10 frame. I wouldn't go 8 if you stay with mediums. Maybe I'm not northern enough for bluegrass, but I haven't noticed any difference in wintering with mediums. Easier on my back.


Every additional frame between the cluster and side wall of the hive adds insulation, especially if those frames are full of honey.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have mine all against each other over winter. So honey on the sides just keeps them from getting as much heat from next door and honey that gets left behind, but if the hive is standing alone, it might add some insulation. The extra honey also acts as a heat sink, not all a bad thing, but it keeps things from warming up as fast on a warm day and might keep them from getting in a cleansing flight.


----------



## Javin007 (Mar 14, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> I have mine all against each other over winter. So honey on the sides just keeps them from getting as much heat from next door and honey that gets left behind, but if the hive is standing alone, it might add some insulation. The extra honey also acts as a heat sink, not all a bad thing, but it keeps things from warming up as fast on a warm day and might keep them from getting in a cleansing flight.


That's actually a great idea! I also understand that you have a particularly good overwintering rate.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I also understand that you have a particularly good overwintering rate. 

I would say I have a "good overwintering rate". I'm not sure I'd say I have "a particularly good overwintering rate"...  In the golden age of beekeeping I hardly ever lost a hive... that was "a particularly good overwintering rate". Typically 100%. Those were the "good old days".


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Like somebody earlier, I am also slowly switching to 10-frame mediums. Also experimenting with 12-frame (square) mediums for fun. I'm doing a combination of cutting down deeps and making new mediums.

I keep large hives, year round, typically 5 deeps. Smaller than 10-frame and they get to be excessively tall. A square medium is about the same volume as a 10-frame deep and about the same weight.

Why mediums? Weight, I guess. I've become an engineer, and so am not able to maintain as much muscle as when I was doing manual labor.


----------

