# Frame type for wax foundation



## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Frame top and bottom bars are available in multiple types. Wedge or groove for top bars, and groove or split for bottom bars. 

For those of you who use wax foundation what combination of top and bottom bar do you prefer?


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

Wedge tops, split bottoms.
FR922's from Mann Lake

PS, i wire


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Anyone use groove top and bottom? Is it really necessary to mess with the wedge top? I know wedge is recommended, but necessary....?


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

ralittlefield said:


> Anyone use groove top and bottom? Is it really necessary to mess with the wedge top? I know wedge is recommended, but necessary....?


How do you plan on holding the upper wires in place?


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## Elizabethjoy (Mar 27, 2016)

You need to detach the wedge and, when using waxed foundation, you must make sure the wires are set in the groove of the frame, replace the wedge and nail or staple it back in place. When a foundation is loaded with brood, or honey, it will be extremely heavy. When you pick it up, the wax foundation will sag or fall apart.So yes, it is important to use the wedge as it adds support and reinforcement. Also, you will have to use extra frame wire horizontally to keep the wax from sagging as well.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

for fdn the wedge top bar with grooved bottom bar work best for us. the split bottom bar is much weaker. this will show up with burr comb between the bottom bar and the top bar below it.. when you pry the super off the bottom bar sometimes sticks which pops the comb out of the bottom bar. grooved bottom bar is less flexible and stronger.


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

This is one of those things that really confuses folks because your frame have to match your choice of foundation and there is at least four or five different wax foundations and some of those come in two depths dependant on the style of frame you use.

Thin Surplus
Medium Brood
5/11
Wired with hooks (two different depths available for grooved or split bottom bars)
Wired without hooks 

Generally wedged top bars are used to hold in wax foundation (hooks or no hooks) via a mechanical hold of either hooks or friction.
Grooved top bars have no means of holding wax foundation this way and must have the foundation "glued" in by a bead of melted wax.
Bottom bars are generally what causes the most trouble. Solid and grooved shorten the distance top to bottom compared to split bottoms. Foundation for split bottoms will be to deep for grooved or solid while foundation for grooved or solid will fit split.
Then there's the split top bar from Kelley that will only take foundations that do not have hooks.

JMO, but there's only two options that really make sense with the Kelley split top standing out as the best of both options.

Wedge top with spilt bottom to take all standard wax foundation.
Grooved top and bottom for plastic only.

Kelley's split top will take all foundations.


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## Elizabethjoy (Mar 27, 2016)

beeware10 said:


> for fdn the wedge top bar with grooved bottom bar work best for us. the split bottom bar is much weaker. this will show up with burr comb between the bottom bar and the top bar below it.. when you pry the super off the bottom bar sometimes sticks which pops the comb out of the bottom bar. grooved bottom bar is less flexible and stronger.


From what I understand, HB's will make burr comb anywhere in the hive, not just on frames. I also understand that on standard frames either 8 frame or ten frame Langstroth hive, the frames are constructed in standard measurements to allow for the 3/8" bee space. If the beekeeper does not space the frames in the correct positions adhering to the proper bee space between frames, then the bees will either build comb or glue nooks and crannies with propolis. Burr comb will always be found in a hive. It is the HB's nature. If you use a hand held frame spacer, or use a metal spacer on the box rabbits, you should not have too much problem with the bees creating so much burr comb. Anybody please correct me if I am wrong about this. Grin.


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

If you're ripping bottom bars off then you aren't using enough glue.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

has nothing to do with spacing or glue. during a good flow the bees often build burr comb between supers. when the top super is pried up the bottom bars bow down and the fdn pops out of the groove of the bottom bar. a split bar is much more flexible causing this. a split top bar can have the same results. over 50 yrs of commercial beekeeping has shown lots of odd results. any weakness will show up with moving, dropped hives etc.


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## BradC (Apr 4, 2015)

Hmmm, I started last year with groove top and bottom with wax foundation without hooks. I only used them in mediums and I had no trouble with warping or sag and it gets hot here. For deeps though I had some sag unless i used pins to hold the foundation straight. I like the grooved because I don't need nails and any extra time to work with them. Just my two bees worth.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

up north we have a long drawn out flow. our bees in sc have a shorter intense flow. this may account for southern states having less burr between supers.


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

beeware10 said:


> up north we have a long drawn out flow. our bees in sc have a shorter intense flow. this may account for southern states having less burr between supers.


True to a point. A fast intense flow gives the bees just enough time to draw and fill while slow trickle flow gives them enough "downtime" to get into mischief. However if you're not quick to pull and super on the fast flow they will make places to put stuff.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

dynemd said:


> How do you plan on holding the upper wires in place?


Not sure I understand your question. When you say upper wires do you mean hooks? 

I use wired foundation without hooks, bees attach the comb to the frame (just like they do foundationless).


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

BradC said:


> Hmmm, I started last year with groove top and bottom with wax foundation without hooks. I only used them in mediums and I had no trouble with warping or sag and it gets hot here. For deeps though I had some sag unless i used pins to hold the foundation straight. I like the grooved because I don't need nails and any extra time to work with them. Just my two bees worth.


This is what I was wondering about. I thought that this might work. If the wax is not cold, it can be flexed into place just like plastic, right?


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I prefer a wedge top bar and grooved bottom bar, mainly because they are easier to assemble and install foundation.

I cross wire everything, all four (or five on my custom extra deep frames) wires on deeps and two on shallows and mediums -- sagging foundation annoys me no end. The bees don't care that much, but interlocking frames I can't remove drive me crazy. This applies to Kelley split top bar frames as well -- I've had foundation actually fall out of those when it got hot.

And glue them when you assemble them. If you don't, it's fairly easy to pull the top bar loose or dislodge a bottom bar, and once the nails slip in the wood they lose all real gripping power. Just a dab of Titebond II or III will save you endless aggravation in the bee yard!

If you haven't tried cross wiring frames yet, do yourself a favor and start. It's not that time consuming, and it saves you time during hive inspections and extracting when all the frames are flat.....

Peter


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## BradC (Apr 4, 2015)

ralittlefield said:


> This is what I was wondering about. I thought that this might work. If the wax is not cold, it can be flexed into place just like plastic, right?


Yes, that is how I installed them. Even going through extractor was no issue.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

BradC said:


> Yes, that is how I installed them. Even going through extractor was no issue.



Who do you buy your frames and wax from?


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Wedge / split 

All mediums. All embedded cross wires.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Topic could go all sorts of directions so I'll throw out a couple things I learned.

1. if you use split top frames you "can" use melted wax to fasten the tops, toss the stick, forget the nails, and you get a whole extra row of cells on one side of the frame. It's a little risky but can be done. Someone did a demo where they had a lazy susan for the frame. They used a turkey baster to dribble the wax onto the edge to glue the foundation in then turned the frame and did the other side. 

2. You "can" put wax foundation in groove top, groove bottom frames using the technique in #1. Again, it's risky. Get too hot and the foundations will fold. (it happens)


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## BradC (Apr 4, 2015)

ralittlefield said:


> Who do you buy your frames and wax from?


My original frames and foundation are from brushy mountain. I get them local now as over all it ends up cheaper as I don't pay shipping because I just don't normally need much after my original order. Though I still get them from brushy mountain as my supplier gets them from them i "think." Good thing is they tend to have lots on hand. Ordering from brushy last year was hair raising during peak time when there were back order issues. hehe


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

aunt betty said:


> Topic could go all sorts of directions so I'll throw out a couple things I learned.
> 
> 1. if you use split top frames you "can" use melted wax to fasten the tops, toss the stick, forget the nails, and you get a whole extra row of cells on one side of the frame. It's a little risky but can be done. Someone did a demo where they had a lazy susan for the frame. They used a turkey baster to dribble the wax onto the edge to glue the foundation in then turned the frame and did the other side.
> 
> 2. You "can" put wax foundation in groove top, groove bottom frames using the technique in #1. Again, it's risky. Get too hot and the foundations will fold. (it happens)


I've actually done that, when I bought wax foundation and then discovered that the only frames I had in stock were meant for plastic foundation.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

ralittlefield said:


> Anyone use groove top and bottom? Is it really necessary to mess with the wedge top? I know wedge is recommended, but necessary....?


I use grooved top and bottom, with wired foundation...no hooks. I install two horizontal wires...using the center two holes...and eyelets. The horizontal wires are electrically embedded. Close to 5000 deep frames this winter. 

To hold the foundation in the frames, I use hot wax....just in the top bar groove. Wax embedding tool from Dadant or Kelley, and double boiler to melt the wax. Quicker than wedges. No nails. Easy to re-new when comb is changed. Dip top in hot water and scrape top and bottom grooves. No broken wedges or need to remove the nails.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Applying a little wax to bottom grooves is a habit I've gotten into, particularly for honey super frames, on the idea that it may make them stronger for extraction. This is with wedge tops.

While doing so, I've wondered if I should make up beeswax glue sticks, and put a glue gun on a dimmer so I can apply it that way. A full power glue gun would be way too hot.


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