# re-discovered SIMPLE 2 queen method



## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

comment if you think its a good idea!


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

It's extremely labor intensive! Inspection is no picnic either.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

its only 2 queen excluders and a PIECE OF NEWSPAPER EXTRA! most 2 queen methods either have u make special equip or u buy it from them! this you can do with almost spare parts! and anyway, its not much harder than normal inspections


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Sounds a lot like the Snelgrove method.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

I've been told that this is a good method and, yes, it is much like the Snelgrove method. I've not done either, but those beeks I know who have used either gave them up years ago in favor of other, equally useful and less labor-intensive processes.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

It works an is not hard or much labor. I use it for weak hives or nucs without having to buy or make extra stuff. It works to make queens too, some times it works sometimes it don't, we call it the way of life...It is no more labor intensive than inspecting two hives..


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Assuming that this is for honey production. There are lots of ways to make a hive really strong to boost per hive honey production. The trick is keeping uber strong hives from swarming just when the flow cranks up. A mediocre hive that doesn't swarm will make more honey than a super hive that does. Look to the people who produce honey for a living if you want to produce honey. You won't see a lot of 2 queen hives.

It's a cool thing to try though.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

David LaFerney said:


> Assuming that this is for honey production. There are lots of ways to make a hive really strong to boost per hive honey production. The trick is keeping uber strong hives from swarming just when the flow cranks up. A mediocre hive that doesn't swarm will make more honey than a super hive that does. Look to the people who produce honey for a living if you want to produce honey. You won't see a lot of 2 queen hives.
> 
> It's a cool thing to try though.


I'm sure that someone who has 100 hives is not going to want to use a Snelgrove board on each hive. I think for someone with 20 or less hives it would be a way to produce a lot more honey with a little more work and wind up with a doubling of hives at the end of the season for a bonus. After a couple of seasons, there would probably be too many hives to use this method.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I am using Snelgrove boards right now - well, working my way out of them for the season. I have only one still in place.

They work very well, exactly as advertised. 

I used them to make splits, and secondarily, to prevent swarming.

The only difficulty is related to doing inspections and supering - some of my stacks got absurdly high. I am eager to get the final stack separated and on its own again. 

But I got very nice new queens, no apparent loss of honey production in the original section of the hive, splits without the confusion and mayhem among the bees that occurred when I did them them the conventional way last year, and never any signs of swarm preps despite the parent hives being enormous and strong coming out of winter.

But my three-deep winter stacks grew into unmanageable, five deeps PLUS three or four mediums, skyscrapers during the process (plus depth of the Snelgrove board, top entrance shims, bottom boards etc.) 

I think it would work far better if you were starting with small colonies.

That said, I think the Snelgrove board's possibilities are under-appreciated. The switch-y entrance point thing is very subtle. 

Enj.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Slow Drone said:


> It's extremely labor intensive! Inspection is no picnic either.


Slow Drone. Did you not read the preceding post? You were only supposed to comment if you thought it was a good Idea.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

My apologies just sharing my experience it won't happen again.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

I used 2 queen system over thirty years ago no newspaper no excluders. Take a double deep hive with one honey super put the honey super in between the brood chambers be sure to have eggs in the top brood chamber give them a top entrance facing the opposite of the main entrance. One plus for hobbiest is they will raise very nice queens in the top box and extra queen cells can be harvested. Daughter queens are the best for this system. I used to end up with 4 deep brood chambers 6 supers of honey. I'm still waiting for your positive input Tenbears.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

Thanks all who commented! also, it seems to be the best for nucs and 3 box hives w/1 super, if you need to have another super, don't go over 2, or simply just use one. if you add more, i just dont see the point. i mean, if its for HONEY PRODUCTION, why have 3-4 supers atone time??? and enjambes, why do you have a deep in between the queen chambers? a 1/2" shim is plenty of room...


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Have you every run a two queen system?


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

this is a method I have thought about seriously, read a lot about, and am planning on using when my hive gets big enough. if I wasn't sure it was a good idea, I wouldn't have posted it


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Just curious that's all! Hope it works out for you. It's primarily used in areas with a long strong nectar flow which you might find in your area. I ran this system years ago just west of Bay City. You'll answer most of your own questions once you try this system, let us know how it turns out for you. Wasn't trying to deter you from trying but you must learn everything in beekeeping isn't without it's downside.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

I used to run two queen hives years ago. I did it a little differently; I made sure the queen was in the bottom box, with a super or 2; then I put a screen on top and made an entrance facing the rear. Put the second hive body on top of that, introduce a queen or let them raise one. Super the top box. 

But as Slow Drone says, it's a son of a gun to work a hive set up like that. Let the young guys do it.

I also found that if I used my time and energy to make sure my hives were healthy and really strong going into the nectar flow I got as much or more honey than when I tried to "trick" the bees into working a hive with 2 queens. 

Having said all that; if you have a hive you want to re-queen later anyway, the 2 queen method can work. Put the new queen in the top box then at the end of the summer flow combine the two bodies making sure you take out the old queen first. Then you get all the fun of breaking your back running a 2 queen hive AND you re-queened your hive at the same time!

Edit: Wait, I forgot. I used to pull the screen after the queen on top was laying well. With a queen excluder over the bottom box you can keep the queens from finding each other....they usually don't anyway with all the supers in between.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

Thanks to everyone who posted! as well as thanks to all who viewed this!


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

This year I started with 2 queen systems, but ended up simply combining two hives before the flow, taking the queen from the second hive with all uncapped brood into a nuc. I only need a queen to raise the brood, and I certainly do not want two queens laying on the flow. So one queen in a double colony limited the brood rearing and helped with the harvest.

Single queens still laid a storm on fresh nectar, but not as much as two, thankfully.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

beestudent said:


> this is a method I have thought about seriously, read a lot about, and am planning on using when my hive gets big enough. if I wasn't sure it was a good idea, I wouldn't have posted it


:scratch:


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

the more bees you have, the better!


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## Agis Apiaries (Jul 22, 2014)

beestudent said:


> comment if you think its a good idea!


How has it worked for you? I'm assuming that you do this with your hive since you are proclaiming the great benefits of it?


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## Agis Apiaries (Jul 22, 2014)

beestudent said:


> and anyway, its not much harder than normal inspections


Like my previous post.... how many inspections of two queen hives have you done?


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

No, but I have done a TON of research, for 2 weeks I spent 2-3 hours of research a day at least. And, I talked to my mentor, he thinks it would be a good idea too.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

I have watched videos of people doing it, it isn't that hard. Just keel in mind where the queens are supposed to be


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I have one 2 queen hive, had 2 but the top box of one produced some queen cells so I broke it up. With my best performers, I can't imagine 2 queening them as the hives are high enough as it is. With my mediocre performers I can see a 2 queen system helping. With mine I put a nuc on top of hive with moderate population. Its just gathering steam now so I'll see how it does through the summer. Its now 8 medium boxes high.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

Dude, make a split...


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

No way  I'm gonna push this thing as far as it will go. The worse that can happen is a nice bunch of swarm cells that will fit into my plans for nuc building just fine. Or I will get lots of brood to use in making some nucs. I will have to keep a close eye on it.


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## CajunBee (May 15, 2013)

I had a weak nuc that dwindled down to just two medium frames after a split. I took the telescoping cover off one of my strong hives, leaving the inner cover in place with a honey super below. Put the nuc on top of that and then telescoping cover. No newspaper. Two weeks later, the nuc is cranking along just fine and both queens happy. I plan to separate in a few days.


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

beestudent said:


> No, but I have done a TON of research, for 2 weeks I spent 2-3 hours of research a day at least. And, I talked to my mentor, he thinks it would be a good idea too.


you know it all so I won't bother to offer an opinion


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

CajunBee,
That sounds great. I might do that with a weak split I have. Thx.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Cajun, thats about why I started my 2 queen system. Moved 2 hives across the yard too early in spring and weakened them to the point where I couldn't even give one of them brood. After setting them up I gave the stronger one frames of brood every week or so, and switched the positions of the brood nest every inspection to even out the foragers. I broke it up when the strong one superceded (made some nice nucs out of it) and gave the rest to the now built up weak one. The weak one is now getting strong, though I reestablished the 2 queen system with one of my nucs just for my own curiosity.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

this is my idea of insurance in the 2 queen system


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

You might want to get a tetanus shot before using that.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@Beestudent,

I failed to see your question before about why I have a deep, and where.

First, I am using a Snelgrove board to divide the two parts of the hives. It is like a double screen arrangement, but has the added feature of having six (or sometimes eight) little doorways that allow you to direct and re-direct the foraging bees between the two separate sections as needed for whatever purpose you want.

On the bottom (since this year I was using the SB for increase and swarm control before any swarm cells were present) was the original queen in her double deep, some brood, and a medium super with mostly empty drawn frames. Then my normal upper entrance shim above the super.

Then the Snelgrove board above that.

On top was two deeps or a deep and medium (depending on the strength of the hive and what the brood resources were at the time I did the split) containing most of the brood - paying particular attention to getting a good whack of eggs and young larvae for making emergency queen cells. Above that a vent shim and the quilt box and my usual cover assembly.

I made one forager re-direction between the two parts (top to bottom) on the fifth day after the split.

One the tenth day after the split I harvested all but two queen cells on their frames and made up mini nucs in a queen castle with an additional frame of honey and pollen paired with each extra frame with queen cells. (I culled the cells on the frame down to no more than two if there were more).

On the 10th day I also checked the bottom section to make sure it was QR, and not feelinig swarmy and added another deep below the SB becuase I am on a draw-out-deeps kick this year. (Bottom is now 3 deeps plus a medium.)

On the 18th to 20th day (there was a couple of days of bad weather at this point) I made another swarm cell check on the bottom sections and added another medium super to the bottoms after carefully lifting off all the upper boxes to avoid disturbing the queen's development in the upper section. This was risky, but I had a strong flow going and could see that the bottom sections were really bursting at the seams. The bottom sections at this point are now three deeps plus two mediums high, with the whole Snelgrove arrangements over head, so the overall stacks are five deeps plus two mediums at this point. This is _not_ a good thing!

On the 28th-29th day I checked that the uppper sections were QR and laying well and lifted them off on to their own bases, maintaining the sideways orientation of the top sections, but turning the stack and using the tricky Snelgrove doorways so that the bees approach the hive from the same direction but wind up entering on the front of the hive. Today or tomorrow I will get them off the Snelgrove boards and put them on regular bases and gradually turn them around to face the front of the hive stand.

And my final hive which was Snelgroved will be ready for queen-right verification and likely separation in two days. It will be a huge relief to get this colony back to its normal 3 deep plus medium supers size. We've had two times when we were under a tornado watch and though I have these ridiculously tall stacks ratchet-strapped crossways and buttressed with concrete blocks, I have not been confident that high winds wouldn't topple them.

The Snelgrove boards worked exactly as advertised: despite having huge hives and a strong flow in late May and June I had no swarm preps; I got very nice queens that seem to be doing well.

But managing these extra-tall stacks was extremely heavy work due to their heights. If I ran more normal-sized colonies it would have been much easier. Usually when I have tall stacks with deep boxes I just remove frames before lifting them off but late in the process when I might have hatching/preparing to mate virgins in those boxes I didn't want to do that. So I had to enlist a helper on a second ladder to carefully help me carry these heavy honey-laden deeps down to a temp stand so I could service the lower section - and then carefully lift them back up afterwards. Very dicey situation, and thankfully all done now!

Hope that answers your question about why I had deeps above the SB.

Enj.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I have heard several Snelgrove presentations and researched it some. I have 2 friends who have used them with great success. My goal this year is to go into winter with 4 double deep hives and 6 double deep nucs. If I can successfully enter next spring with 8 production hives, I will snelgrove 4 and not snelgrove the other 4. 

The snelgrove hives will be 1 deep, qe, 3 med, snelgrove, 1 deep. The other 4 hives will be 2 deep, 1 super, qe, and supers as needed. The Snelgrove hives will not get much examination until after the flow other than to check the top super every few weeks.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

This is my second summer using the Snelgrove system and so far I have found them to be completely workable for dividing hives and getting cells started and queens mated. Just yesterday tried the operation where you put an about to swarm box above the board and extract the flying bees to the lower box. With no flying bees they supposedly cannot swarm and then will tear down the cells. I just dont want anymore splits to get ready for winter. It is not a production aid but seems good to control swarming and raise replacement queens for someone with half a dozen hives.

It makes bottom box inspection more of a chore but the top box does not get heavy and the bottom box is quite maintenance free for three weeks or so after your initial setup.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I probably could have lightened my work load considereably by not making interim swarm checks on the bottom sections under the Snelgrove boards. 

But this is my first year using the SB, and my hives were exceptionally large and booming coming out of this past winter so I was afraid to risk missing swarm preps. But I found no signs of any swarm preps during the entire 4 week cycle, notwithstanding the huge population in the QR bottom section. Maybe I just gave them enough room, and maybe the set-back of removing a substantial amount of the brood (to put it in the top section) did the trick. Either way, I think next time I do this I will be more sanguine about leaving them be.

I don't use QE in any of my colonies except for short-term use to take a particular box out of brood production, for one reason or another.

The thing I really liked about the SB vs. "divide the box" splits which I tried last year was that my apiary stayed calm and unruffled throughout the process. The queenless bees seemed comforted by the rising scent of the old queen (though they still cooked up new cells to make one of their own) and the QR bees minded their manners and didn't try to press any unfair advantage. Even when I added in mini-nucs in the queen castles, and then eventually the divided-deep nuc boxes I had a "happy" and productive bee-yard. Whereas last summer I had seemingly endless rioting and misbehavior requiring constant vigilance at the entrances.

Betterbee bills their Snelgrove boards as not being for beginning beeks, but on the contrary, aside from wrapping your head around the process (and that is somewhat complicated) the work of actually doing it is pretty straightforward and easy. I found the instructions given on British beekeeping websites far better than anything here in the States. Perhaps they just use them more so there are more descriptions floating about..

One thing, for sure, however, the Snelgrove process interferes with my mite monitoring program as the sticky boards are rendered inaccurate due to the semi-solid division floor and the nurse bees in the bottom section are too hard to reach for a sugar shake. I will heave a huge sigh of relief when all the sections are once again on their own bases and I can resume my planned checks. Without my regular monitoring, I am uneasy. 

Enj.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Hey Enj,

You think you might do a round of OAV treatments in spring to give you peace of mind re mites?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@ Arnie,

I considered doing that, and did a sugar roll in late April, but my numbers were still extremely low since I did an OAV treatment last Christmas Day when the hive was nearly broodless. 

It's tricky for me during the Spring because of the early nectar flow and the need to take the supers off to treat with OAV, just at the point when my poor bees are finally getting some nectar after six long months of being penned up inside. If my winter was shorter, maybe there'd be time. I did treat a neighbor's hive this spring that had never been treated and so it was loaded with mites early on. It's a long 21-day process to get it done in time.

Enj.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Oh yea, I forgot about those winters up there. I used to live over by Malone. 
But it sounds like you have it covered. Just have confidence in your treatment plan and go with it.


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