# ever consider electric treatment?



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

I'll stick with OAV
Good luck you could make a million if it works.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

EPM for mites! 

electro magnetic pulse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/170563-north-korea-emp


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Delber, a microwave oven uses a process that is similar in concept to what you suggested. The difficult part is regulating things so that the pulses kill the mites and not the bees. And not the beekeeper either.


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## ksirovy (Mar 26, 2013)

That would make you a "mitey killer".


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

No Delber I dont think your crazy....At least in reguard to this theory...lol..
There have been law suits against cell phone manufactures, from people who claim that
they have gotten brain cancer from using their cell phones...also some people claim they
got cancer from living to close to a power line,,,
I'm a ham radio operator and an electrician and the length of a transmitting antena is a
very precise length, and the reciever antenna, has to be the same length to pick up the 
signal the best...sometimes called sympathetic resonance,or frequency of ocilation
and yes everything has a frequenccy of resonance,,,,your body, or finger,
or portion of your brain, or leg, ect..
It would have to be an extreemly high fz. to be resonant with something as small as a 
verroa mite...
MRI's = Magnetic Resonant Imaging,,,Is a take off of the principal of the resonance of
your body...
I'll stop here with my limited knowlege of MRI and the specifics of this theory, and just
say that yes, you may have something there,,,, 

==McBee7==


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Thanks for your reply McBee. It's interesting that you say it'd need to be a high frequency because they're small. Why is that? What is a high frequency? is 5,000 high or higher yet? What approximate range would you think?


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Glock, You've obviously been happy w/ OA. I think I remember hearing that it's a "softer" treatment, but it is still hard on the bees. Have you noticed this and what have you observed that causes you to use it?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

When the dog howls, go a little higher.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself. 

I am actually involved in some electro magnetic research and development with a patented electro magnetic supression clothing line. 'HECS'
Yeah, it's real. Military use it. Divers in shark waters use it. Beekeepers are going to be using it. From what I saw of the Dee Lusby video, she'd be a good candidiate-or at least her camera man. That's all I can say right now.

http://www.hecsllc.com/research.html


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Lauri, Thanks for the link. I am also a hunter and have had some "interesting" close encounters where the deer have always seen me and been leary. I had a nice buck this year only come in to about 35 yards. He wouldn't come closer. 30 is my max archery shot. I'm going to look into this. This is very cool.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Delber, a microwave oven uses a process that is similar in concept to what you suggested. The difficult part is regulating things so that the pulses kill the mites and not the bees. And not the beekeeper either.


haha breaking new....... beekeeper creates device that will kill anything that is destroying the bees......beekeeper died.

Oh, and there are hundreds of beneficial bacteria and other living organisms in the hive as well.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Kamon Reynolds said:


> Oh, and there are hundreds of beneficial bacteria and other living organisms in the hive as well.


They where slacking so got what they deserved. Bacteria and organisms want to make it my hive they better buck up and tow the line.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Then there is the problem of harmonics in your generator. A high frequency generator will also produce several lower harmonics that could be hazardous to the larger bee. You will filter the sub-harmonics but nothing is perfect.
I have a beekeeper that grounds all his hives. As long as he wears his foil hat around the yard he is OK. Except in thunderstorms.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Ever consider electric treatment?*

Yes, but my mother-in-law would not agree to it.....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Delber, a microwave oven uses a process that is similar in concept to what you suggested.


A microwave generally excites a water molecule causing heat. This can be done for specific compounds which would be common to a lot of creatures. I think a bug zapper would be a better tool. You could attract the mite and screen off the bees so they can't get to it to be zapped. I am not sure how the bees would deal with the smoke. The logistics of bringing power to every hive could be a show stopper.


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## Hoot Owl Lane Bees (Feb 24, 2012)

Lauri
Thank you for the link.
We are avid hunters and for some reason this year the Deer seemed to know we were there before they were in range.
We are going to order some and give them a try.

Have they tried them when working hives yet? (sorry I did not read your post close enough)
I will try it after we get them.


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> As long as he wears his foil hat around the yard he is OK. Except in thunderstorms.


AB, your post "resonated" with me... <hehe>.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...this 'supressed technology' is generally referred to as 'rife frequency'. Like a car that will run on water, or free, unlimited energy from 'the ether', or a frog that sings....it only seems to exist when one isn't looking directly at it.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/450/transcript
...this is a transcript from a 'this american life' episode that looks at a specific attempt to harness this. This is a good lesson in how not to do your experiment. The orchestra conductor in the story was my academic adviser when I was in college, and the cancer researcher lived across the hall from me for a year.
deknow


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I think a bug zapper would be a better tool. [HIGHLIGHT]You could attract the mite [/HIGHLIGHT]and screen off the bees so they can't get to it to be zapped. I am not sure how the bees would deal with the smoke. The logistics of bringing power to every hive could be a show stopper.


I think the _*real *_show stopper is attracting the mites in the first place. 

If you can separate the mites from the bees, you don't need electric power to kill the mites.



:gh:


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> A microwave generally excites a water molecule causing heat. This can be done for specific compounds which would be common to a lot of creatures. I think a bug zapper would be a better tool. You could attract the mite and screen off the bees so they can't get to it to be zapped. I am not sure how the bees would deal with the smoke. The logistics of bringing power to every hive could be a show stopper.


This is something I have long thought about. I think a small solar collector would probably be workable (think electric fencer) particularly if it was only set up to run intermittently.The problems would relate more to propolization and fabricating a fine enough grid for mites to crawl through assuming they would even choose to do so. Varroa are attracted to bees and open larvae, not metal grids.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

delber said:


> Thanks for your reply McBee. It's interesting that you say it'd need to be a high frequency because they're small. Why is that? What is a high frequency? is 5,000 high or higher yet? What approximate range would you think?


Try to visualize radio energy like a particle - a dot, moving up and down in front of you. In real life, it moves at the speed of light - but to keep things simple just imagine it going at a lazy speed. If you were to duct-tape a marker to that dot, and run a long piece of paper along behind it at a constant speed, it would draw a line looking kind of like this:










Frequency is the number of times that dot moves up and down in the space of one second (called "hertz"). Since the dot's up-down speed is constant, that means the higher the frequency, the shorter (from very top to very bottom) that wavy line will be, because it travels less and less far up or down before having to change direction.

Thinking of that line as a radio wave, in order to pick the signal up the best, you need an antenna that is exactly as long as that wave is tall (antennas that are a very specific fraction of that length can also work, but that's getting complicated). An antenna of the right length will "resonate" correctly with radio signals of that particular height.

Since the "dot" in real life moves at the speed of light, those waves in real life get pretty darn tall. Radio with a frequency of 14 megahertz - that's a cycle of 14 _million_ times in a second - makes a wave 20 meters tall (radio people therefore call it the "20 meter band"). 

Waves short enough that a varroa mite would be the right size to "resonate" best with it, would have to be of a stupid-high frequency. The "2mm band" (about the size of a varroa mite) is around 134 gigahertz - a cycle of 134 billion times a second - and is considered microwave.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

A couple of things....

1. "up and down" is what you get when you graph into 2 dimensions (on paper)...the wave itself moves in 3d....in a helical motion (tie a rope to the doorknob, grab the free end and make circles with your hand...this is a very different shape than up and down produces).

2. If there is any 'treatment' to be had here, it is not going to be as simplisitc a solution as to look for a frequency that matches the size of the mite...why would a mite be affected, but a bee's eye (or other organ the size of a mite) not be?

deknow


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Daniel Y said:


> They where slacking so got what they deserved. Bacteria and organisms want to make it my hive they better buck up and tow the line.


In fairness, is feeding sugar/corn syrup, pollen sub, antibiotics, using "treated" queens and using chemicals giving these guys a chance to adapt?

Not saying that there is an easy answer but when the biology is nuked or thrown off even the making beebread that requires those good bacteria can suffer. Then the quality of nutrition can drop making bees more prone to disease. 

Sure we want those "guys" to learn how to coexist with varroa..... but as a industry whole we are not giving them the tools to work with to do that either.


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## beebreeder (Nov 24, 2009)

We have a guy in the UK called John Harding, he has written a book about Ley lines and bees, he keeps bees on ley lines, theses are areas where the earths energy comes to the surface, this he says in in harmony with bees natural frequency but not the mites, his bees are treatment free, if anyone is interested I will dig the book out and put details up. I do not do it, not got the time and not convinced


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

In some kind of _cosmic coincidence_,







Beesource already has a John Harding thread!

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-have-found-the-answer-quot&highlight=harding


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

melliferal said:


> Frequency is the number of times that dot moves up and down in the space of one second (called "hertz"). Since the dot's up-down speed is constant, that means the higher the frequency, the shorter (from very top to very bottom) that wavy line will be, because it travels less and less far up or down before having to change direction.


I always thought frequency was the distance from wave to wave and amplitude was the height of the wave.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Varroa are attracted to bees and open larvae, not metal grids.


Insects are attracted to energy sources. A bug zapper has a light source to attract insects. A grid is powered and that cooks the insects when they pass by the poles. Mites are blind but some how they find their targets. What would it take to simulate the targets?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Frequency has a couple of equivalent names, but they are related to time, not distance.

Frequency, cycles per second, and Hertz (Hz) are pretty much equivalent.



> The *hertz* (symbol *Hz*) is the unit of frequency in the International System of Units (SI). It is defined as the number of cycles per second of a periodic phenomenon.[SUP][1][/SUP] One of its most common uses is the description of the sine wave, particularly those used in radio and audio applications, such as the frequency of musical tones. The unit is named for Heinrich Rudolf Hertz, who was the first to conclusively prove the existence of electromagnetic waves.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz


Wavelength is the term better suited to measuring distance from wave to wave.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Mites are blind but some how they find their targets. 

Even a _blind _man knows when the sun is shining.  :lookout:

The point is that "blind" is a _relative _term. If you _really _want to know more about varroa sensory organs, read

http://vshbreeders.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=8
page 598; starts at the left column, lower part of the page.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Frequency has a couple of equivalent names, but they are related to time, not distance.


Distance along the "X" axis is a representation of time is it not?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Ace, if you want to use terms as other people understand them, see above.

If you don't care about using commonly understood terms, well, get ready for some more _speed of light_ fun.


:gh:


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Someone on one of the other strings summed up the problem nicely,
in reference to vapor treatment for mites " You're trying to kill a bug on a bug" -:}
solar power at a remote site is very doable---You could use 12 volt solar set up, and
then convert it to 120volt ac with an inverter...if necessary,,,

==McBee7==


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

deknow said:


> 2. If there is any 'treatment' to be had here, it is not going to be as simplisitc a solution as to look for a frequency that matches the size of the mite...why would a mite be affected, but a bee's eye (or other organ the size of a mite) not be?


Shoot I don't know. I was only answering the question about frequency and size.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> In some kind of _cosmic coincidence_,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"It was as if some occult hand had placed it in the forum..."


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The microwaves used in _radar _systems (the kind aircraft use, for instance) are the same microwaves that microwave ovens are named after. Radar waves don't kill us because they are dispersed over a very wide area. These same microwaves used in a more concentrated area, such as an _oven_, or in the case under discussion, a _hive_, certainly are capable of killing mites.

But that doesn't help much unless you can get the mites without harming the bees.

For an interesting history of how in 1946 an employee of defense contractor Raytheon was working with a magnetron (the guts of a radar system) and found that it melted a candy bar he was carrying - which led to Raytheon producing the first _RadarRange _microwave oven product:

http://www.smecc.org/microwave_oven.htm

.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Kamon Reynolds said:


> In fairness, is feeding sugar/corn syrup, pollen sub, antibiotics, using "treated" queens and using chemicals giving these guys a chance to adapt?


There are some things that simply cannot be adapted to, and avoiding helping out bees to give them a "chance to adapt" to this condition or that predator might be an exercise in futility.

One can make an argument about whether varroa can be adapted to. However, famine is one of those things that simply cannot - bees need to eat, or they will starve and die, not adapt to need less food. If there is a dearth of food, bees need to be fed. Surely, if no other part of the "if my bees aren't strong enough to survive X, I allow them to die" can be called blatant cruelty, it's deliberately not feeding them when there's no food to be got.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

A possible experiment could be kind of a cause and affect thing.
While subjecting a specimen--(bee with mite attached)--to a variable 
Fz. generator of the approximate wave length that might match phisical 
size of the mite,,move the frequency up or down to produce a reaction
from either the mite or the bee...
While this may be simplistic and some of the affects may be hidden and
long term, it is a starting point...
As laura (?) mentioned before --"if the dog howls, it can hear the frequency"
Sorry, my paraphrase....or.....if the mite shows a change in any reguard,
movement, color, legs twitch, there may be a weakness that can be
exploited,,,,Maybe you can find a Fz that caused the mites legs to be weak
ened, it might be more easily removed by the bees themselves....
And if there were a sensitivity that could be exploited either on a short
ter, basis or continual basis, you could treat the bee with an entrance
type exposure to the disinfectant fz as she enters or exits.....
Just thinking....:}

==McBee7==


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

delber, I doubt this is a practical endeavor, but if you want to try it.....
You would need a beat frequency oscillator and a powerful amplifier with an exceptionally wide frequency range (find this in a University research lab). In another life, I used a manually operated beat frequency oscillator to test hearing aids. Just turn it on (with bees and mites inside the box and under a microscope - be sure to video it for youtube because we all want to watch), twist the dial to sweep frequencies from low to high, and watch to see what happens to the bees and mites. If nothing happens, increase the volume, and try again. 

To put a perspective on the frequency of sounds: If you remember the tiny, high pitch at the back of an old CRT TV (volume off), that pitch is at the top of the human hearing range, at about 15-16,000 cycles per second -called Hertz after a German physicist- (you and I probably can't hear that at our age). Some of the sibilant sounds ("S" sounds) are in the 4-6,000 Hz range. The fundamental frequency of an ordinary man's speaking voice is about 110-120 Hz, and women, 130-140 Hz. HTH


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I like that LBurou.... 
If they can't hear it turn it UP!!!
If they're sensitive in the audio range or not,,,Turn it up,,,,,
I worked under a turbine generator once and the beat frequency of the generator made
it unbearable to be there....at a lower Fz, it probably wouldnt of had any effect, but when
I was 3ft from the source of 7 megawatts, I couldn't remain there....some times it's
the Fz, sometimes it's the volume....

==McBee7==


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Thank you all for your replies. This has and is helpful!!! What I find so often when I hang around here is that I learn how much more there is to learn. 

Ace, If Frequency and amplitude are the same as on our robotic welder, then frequency is the speed side to side and amplitude would be the distance from center that it travels. I don't know if this is helpful or totally off comparing this to electric. 

This has been a helpful discussion. I need to research this much more. 

McBee definitely some thoughts there!!! You may not even need to have something all the time. Perhaps once or twice a year would be sufficient? How often do people treat for mites on average? I've read typically 2x per year? Although there was just a session through my beekeeping club where a guy did a OA dribble. I wanted to know more so I went. It was interesting, but this is something you do in the winter. This may be the only treatment that he does I'm not sure. Perhaps if people treat 2x per year perhaps that would be good enough to kick them down? Well I'm going to do some homework!!!


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

McBee7 said:


> I like that LBurou....
> If they can't hear it turn it UP!!!
> If they're sensitive in the audio range or not,,,Turn it up,,,,,
> I worked under a turbine generator once and the beat frequency of the generator made
> ...


I have read that EMF's disipate with distance while RF's dont. Could this be that you're sensitive to EMF's? I have also experienced similar things. I was at a friends house looking at his panel box in the basement and I couldn't stay there. It was like the box was grabbing me. I don't know how to explain it better than that. What I suspect was that his box wasn't grounded at all or at least properly. He did put in another grounding rod, but I haven't been back to see if it's better.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Kamon Reynolds said:


> In fairness, is feeding sugar/corn syrup, pollen sub, antibiotics, using "treated" queens and using chemicals giving these guys a chance to adapt?
> 
> Not saying that there is an easy answer but when the biology is nuked or thrown off even the making beebread that requires those good bacteria can suffer. Then the quality of nutrition can drop making bees more prone to disease.
> 
> Sure we want those "guys" to learn how to coexist with varroa..... but as a industry whole we are not giving them the tools to work with to do that either.


I don't think they adapt. that is why they are the shape they are in. They had their chance to withstand the onslaught and failed. No insult to the bee just a fact. I also don't think the diseases are the problem. I think they are a symptom of the problem. 

I still wonder how it is supposed to work out to the beekeepers liking. what makes anyone think that nature has eventualities in store that are agreeable to the beekeeper? Could it bee nature has marked bees for extinction and we simply keep interfering with it by keeping them? Maybe it is the mite that nature is interested in fostering to full strength. Maybe the mite is natures answer to the plague of bees upon this continent. They do not belong here, nature is in the process of removing them.

So although I do agree with selective pressure causing adaptation in a species. I do not agree that just open uncontrolled selection will result in adaptation that is desirable. that is like throwing a dart a a million balloons with certainty you will hit the one with the jackpot.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

delber said:


> Ace, If Frequency and amplitude are the same as on our robotic welder, then frequency is the speed side to side and amplitude would be the distance from center that it travels. I don't know if this is helpful or totally off comparing this to electric.


Really, that is whacked to normal representation of wave forms. I can't imagine why the manufactures would reverse normal convention but I have seen it before.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

While we're discussing electricity and mites, there _is_ a more direct approach - I've heard about a special drone frame, which works to draw mites in the typical way, except that you do not have to remove it and freeze it to kill the mites. Rather, during your typical inspection you just hook a car battery up for a few seconds to the connectors on the frame, which has an electrical element that underlays all the cells. The drone brood (and mite brood) are zapped, the wax cells and cappings safely insulate the bees from the electricity, and as soon as they realize all the brood is dead they remove it as normal.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

rader sidetrack said:


> delber, a microwave the difficult part is regulating things so that the pulses kill the mites and not the bees. And *not the beekeeper either*.


amen to that!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

melliferal said:


> Rather, during your typical inspection you just hook a car battery up for a few seconds to the connectors on the frame, which has an electrical element that underlays all the cells.


I can't imagine 12 V doing anything and arranging the cathode and anode to zap the brood has to be a trick.


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

Acebird said:


> Really, that is whacked to normal representation of wave forms. I can't imagine why the manufactures would reverse normal convention but I have seen it before.


here this may help everyone understand sine waves better

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I can't imagine 12 V doing anything and arranging the cathode and anode to zap the brood has to be a trick.


My understanding is that the electrical element heats up enough to kill the brood and mites. I might be misunderstanding; it was a while ago that I read about it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>There are some things that simply cannot be adapted to, and avoiding helping out bees to give them a "chance to adapt" to this condition or that predator might be an exercise in futility.

Since there are thousands of us who have been not treating and our bees for well over a decade and our bees continue to survive, and since, not only have many of us been observing feral bees, but even one of our illustrious bee scientists (Tom Seeley) has been documenting and tracking feral bees who continue to surive, it is obvious at this point that this is NOT an exercise in futility.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> >There are some things that simply cannot be adapted to, and avoiding helping out bees to give them a "chance to adapt" to this condition or that predator might be an exercise in futility.
> 
> Since there are thousands of us who have been not treating and our bees for well over a decade and our bees continue to survive, and since, not only have many of us been observing feral bees, but even one of our illustrious bee scientists (Tom Seeley) has been documenting and tracking feral bees who continue to surive, it is obvious at this point that this is NOT an exercise in futility.


Mr. Bush, you feed your bees when they need to be fed - which, according to the person I was responding to, is also not "giving them a chance to adapt" (to starvation, I guess?).


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I can't imagine 12 V doing anything and arranging the cathode and anode to zap the brood has to be a trick.


Come on Dr. Cardinal - surely as a _physicist _you are familiar with the concept of a heating element powered by a 12 volt battery? :scratch:

If not, read it about it here and learn something today ...
http://www.mitezapper.com/



:gh:


... cathode and anode .... wow ...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

melliferal said:


> My understanding is that the electrical element heats up enough to kill the brood and mites.


I see. The term "zapper" led me to believe there was a discharge in each cell. I wonder how long it will take for the bees to learn not to put brood in that comb?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The bees didnt seem to learn not to put brood in the trap combs I kept freezing on them and returning to the hive so I wouldn't worry about that. Your logic is flawed anyways since it would be a winning behaviour for them.

I consider it too expensive for anything more than a few hives or some funded experiment.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

But this is a frame that doesn't move. You have to notch the box for the wire.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> I have a beekeeper that grounds all his hives.


Is this true? Do you know why he does this and how he does it? What does he think it accomplishes?


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Daniel Y said:


> I don't think they adapt. that is why they are the shape they are in. They had their chance to withstand the onslaught and failed. No insult to the bee just a fact. I also don't think the diseases are the problem. I think they are a symptom of the problem.
> 
> I still wonder how it is supposed to work out to the beekeepers liking. what makes anyone think that nature has eventualities in store that are agreeable to the beekeeper? Could it bee nature has marked bees for extinction and we simply keep interfering with it by keeping them? Maybe it is the mite that nature is interested in fostering to full strength. Maybe the mite is natures answer to the plague of bees upon this continent. They do not belong here, nature is in the process of removing them.
> 
> So although I do agree with selective pressure causing adaptation in a species. I do not agree that just open uncontrolled selection will result in adaptation that is desirable. that is like throwing a dart a a million balloons with certainty you will hit the one with the jackpot.



If you think about it. (wether you beleive in evolution or a biblical view) there at one time was a solid land mass. Everything mixed and mingled. Say once it split certain creatures were seperated or died due to a change in climate.

After even a few hundred years a gene like mite resistence could be lost when the bee is not exposed. I don't have any proof but I beleive to everything their is an answer. 

I think beekeepers are not letting their bees split enough like they would in nature. I keep 90 hives this way without treatment.

Will it work for the commercials? No, but should we have that many bees in one spot? Man is more responsible than the bees are.

bees did not have a chance to adapt we saw they died we treated. Sure we might have lost 90% of the nations population but that might have been what people needed to wake up to this whole commercial side of everything.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

..


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

melliferal said:


> Mr. Bush, you feed your bees when they need to be fed - which, according to the person I was responding to, is also not "giving them a chance to adapt" (to starvation, I guess?).


There is a difference between working with nature and defying it. Feeding is helping the bees. treating is giving them a crutch. I am not judging anyone for using them but it is what it is.

Now to regress, feeding like the commercials do..... that is a crutch. It also and has developed bees that have high populations that often hurt (by eating to much when they shouldn't and helping create more mites during times they dont have to be raising as much brood.

How you avoid that "adapt to starvation thing" is that you breed your own bees and you select from those which don't need the pampering or near as much.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

delber said:


> Is this true? Do you know why he does this and how he does it? What does he think it accomplishes?


I'd especially like to know how one is supposed to meaningfully "ground" a wooden box.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Kamon Reynolds said:


> There is a difference between working with nature and defying it. Feeding is helping the bees. treating is giving them a crutch. I am not judging anyone for using them but it is what it is.
> 
> Now to regress, feeding like the commercials do..... that is a crutch. It also and has developed bees that have high populations that often hurt (by eating to much when they shouldn't and helping create more mites during times they dont have to be raising as much brood.
> 
> How you avoid that "adapt to starvation thing" is that you breed your own bees and you select from those which don't need the pampering or near as much.


In nature, species help each other all the time for a given benefit. 

I've given examples in other threads; here is one: for some flowers, insect pollination isn't just a good idea, it's the law. Without insects to spread those plants' pollen, those plants cannot reproduce at all and _will_ die off as a species, no question. So, does the insects pollinating those plants for their own ends amount to a "crutch" keeping those plants alive? All things being equal, would it be better if insects stopped pollinating, so that those plants could have a chance to "adapt" to be able to reproduce without relying on some other species to transfer their pollen?


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

<I'd especially like to know how one is supposed to meaningfully "ground" a wooden box.

The only thought I had was to ground the bees not the box. If you put a grounding wire at the entrance so the bees had to go over the wire it could be "grounded". I'm not sure what benefit it could have which is why I ask. The only other thought was a kind of fairday cage. (Spelling?) Could he make a wire mesh around his boxes and ground that? That may seriously mess them up with their ability to communicate though. I understand they use the earth's energies etc. (Whatever you want to call it. I think of geopathic, but I don't think that's right) to direct others to the food source.


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

delber said:


> <I'd especially like to know how one is supposed to meaningfully "ground" a wooden box.
> 
> The only thought I had was to ground the bees not the box. If you put a grounding wire at the entrance so the bees had to go over the wire it could be "grounded". I'm not sure what benefit it could have which is why I ask. The only other thought was a kind of fairday cage. (Spelling?) Could he make a wire mesh around his boxes and ground that? That may seriously mess them up with their ability to communicate though. I understand they use the earth's energies etc. (Whatever you want to call it. I think of geopathic, but I don't think that's right) to direct others to the food source.


what would be the point of this, unless your hive is electrically charged somehow it is going to be the same or very close to the same potential as ground anyways, maybe a styrofoam hive might get statically charged but the bees would not really be affected.

and your faraday cage would be expensive and i dont see the need.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Is he trying to collect pollen and take the static charge off the bees so the pollen falls off?


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

spreerider said:


> *what would be the point of this*, unless your hive is electrically charged somehow it is going to be the same or very close to the same potential as ground anyways, maybe a styrofoam hive might get statically charged but the bees would not really be affected.
> 
> and your faraday cage would be expensive and *i dont see the need*.


This is exactly my thoughts also. I'd just like to try to understand the why's of someone else's thoughts if I can. It seems that some reason and some how he does somethig that he believes works. I'd like to know why and how. 

Ace, My understanding is that the pollen sticks to their bodies via static electricity that is charged as they fly, but once it's in their sacks on their legs it's there. The only way to get it off is to "scrape" it off as they go through those small holes in the traps. I'd be up for being corrected though!!!


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I have successfully picked up, and separated, dead Varroa mites from other debris swept from a bottom board using static electricity.

I rubbed a plastic rod with a fabric, and it worked.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I find that powdered sugar separates mites from bees rather well with my VSH bees and the sticky board with olive oil on it traps the mites, so I'm going to stick with that.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

delber said:


> Ace, My understanding is that the pollen sticks to their bodies via static electricity that is charged as they fly, but once it's in their sacks on their legs it's there. The only way to get it off is to "scrape" it off as they go through those small holes in the traps. I'd be up for being corrected though!!!


This is my understanding as well. I believe they wet pollen with a tiny bit of nectar so that it sticks together when they pack it onto their "pollen basket"; but various little stray grains of pollen stick to their body fuzz due to static.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

beebreeder said:


> We have a guy in the UK called John Harding, he has written a book about Ley lines and bees, he keeps bees on ley lines, theses are areas where the earths energy comes to the surface, this he says in in harmony with bees natural frequency but not the mites, his bees are treatment free, if anyone is interested I will dig the book out and put details up. I do not do it, not got the time and not convinced


His article(s) were discussed on Beesource a few months ago. I think the general consenses was that he is a nut job. 

http://modernsurvivalblog.com/natural-disasters/the-honeybee-varroa-vibration-and-ccd/


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Come on Nabber that is not nice. Maybe he is the next Einstein for bees.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Okay, how does one nicely say that the guy's theory is crazy?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Just _add _a smiley! 


After all,_ Barry _probably worked his fingers to the bone rounding up all those independent minded smileys (somewhat like herding cats ). :lookout:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

melliferal said:


> Okay, how does one nicely say that the guy's theory is crazy?


You just did.


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## wanderyr (Feb 11, 2012)

This has been a fun thread so far! Milliferal has the math right, and Acebird has the right understanding  Deknow made a point I want to clarify:

An antenna's response (we want the mite to act like an antenna, right?) is the greatest when the frequency and antenna length line up. But, if the size isn't perfect, there is still a response! It diminishes as the antenna length changes, but it doesn't stop all at once.

A bee is pretty close to the same size as a mite, relatively speaking. And a bee's eye, for example, is really close! I don't think you could find a simple frequency that would heat up a mite but not effect the bees...

Maybe, we can find an audio frequency (sound waves, not rf waves) that will attract the mites or cause them to let go? Then we have lots of possibilities 

Thanks for letting me geek out!
-wanderyr


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