# DWV.....need advice please.



## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I'm not sure what all your options are. One would be to create a break in the brood cycle. You could split the hive into nucs with each have a frame with eggs. You should have new queens just starting to lay when you return.

Or, you could remove the queen and let the hive raise a new queen.

I don't think just replacing the queen would be enough right now, assuming you have a hive mite load.

Tom


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

TWall said:


> I'm not sure what all your options are. One would be to create a break in the brood cycle. You could split the hive into nucs with each have a frame with eggs. You should have new queens just starting to lay when you return.
> 
> Or, you could remove the queen and let the hive raise a new queen.
> 
> ...


Thats about the only choice to remain treatment free. by the time you see DWV you have a huge problem....


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Brood break and let them raise a new queen. When you get back, you should have a mated queen in a week or so. If the new queen doesn't get mated, install a mated queen.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I split a hive with similar problems into nucs.

The issue is that while you can see symptoms of DWV, other viruses can become activated as well and are less apparent until you start splitting.

Only 1 out of about 8 splits resulted in a nuc that looked like it had a resistant queen (they looked normal). The rest looked off-color, etc. .

The resulting colony ended up starving with my other one, but the theory is sound.

Split into a challenge to get a resistant colony. It's part trans-generational immune priming, part genetics.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

Interesting. Well, I don't have any nucs on hand and probably don't have time to make any before I have to leave, but I could do four walk away style splits pretty easily and since each split would have a full medium of resources and the main flow is still two months away any viable hives I got out of it would have a decent chance of overwintering.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

There's also the attenuated mites/virus hypothesis.
It takes an average of 3 seasons to get attenuated mites/viruses (DWV).
So, if you can get them to their 3rd season, you have a shot.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> There's also the attenuated mites/virus hypothesis.


Sounds interesting WLC! I Googled it but couldn't find much on it, could you explain?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

First of all, there has been work that has shown the difference between the Korean and Japanese Varroa destructor haplotypes. The Japanese strain being less pathogenic:

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted-sites/acarology/saas/saasp/pdf10/saasp05b.pdf

Then there's the results from the Martin study of Varroa and DWV in Hawaii:

http://211.144.68.84:9998/91keshi/Public/File/41/336-6086/pdf/1304.full.pdf

It found that after about 3 years, a single (or a few) strains of DWV became dominant in both Varroa destructor and Honeybees.

So, there's a selection process that singles out (a) DWV strain(s)s from the 'cloud' of DWV strains present.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks, yes some very interesting info.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

So WLC, I assume you are suggesting the the splits raise their own queens?

Adam


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Yes. You're trying to select for queens with some type of resistance, or at least for attenuated mites/virus.

I think that it's better than simply letting the colony fade without benefitting in any way.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

So I think I've decided to split up the hive which is in four mediums right now into four hives that all have a miz of eggs, honey and brood and let them raise new queens and see what I get.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Just something to think about,,,,,Your four new hives will be almost two months before you see new bees from a new queen. JMO
Rick


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Just about every time I read you the last year you pet topic is the evils of treatment and how we should not be helping the weak or breeding from them.

So, why you breeding from the weak?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Oldtimer:

If you were addressing me...

In my opinion, treatment free beekeepers need some kind of a litmus test.

I think that producing a split that survives a mite/DWV outbreak is classic resistance selection in the presence of a easily visible 'challenge'.

So, the resulting colony won't be as 'weak'.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Question is, what, if anything should I do.

I would see how they are when you get back...

I occasionally see a few DWV bees. DWV was around long before Varroa, Varroa just spread it faster. A few is not an issue. A lot might be, but what are you going to do anyway? If they survive you have stock that can survive it. If you don't, you removed them from your breeding program. My guess is, based on you needing 30 minutes to see 10 deformed winged bees, that they will survive.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes I can see that WLC and have been thinking about it for a while. Thing is, I now have one hive that was virtually wiped out by mites ie down to a fistful of bees and all brood dead, and then somehow threw them off and survived.

So my initial reaction when I checked next time and to my surprise found them alive, plus no sign of mites, was WOW! I should breed from them. But later I realised it could be better to breed from the neighboring hive, that didn't get mites in the first place.

It's a conundrum.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

My situation was different. Plenty of bees, and plenty of crawlers in front of the hive, many with deformed wings and other telltale signs. Couldn't find mites though.

So, I split before it was too late to do anything other than order new bees.

However, I ended up ordering new 'resistant' bees anyway.

Close, but no cigar.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

LOL.

Me and some guys were just talking about Clinton last night. A brilliant communicator, and some great achievements during his Presidency, no doubt he thought he would be remembered as one of the good Presidents.

Then, in a fleeting moment, too much blood (or something) to the head, screws up, and THAT phrase is how he is remembered.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> LOL.
> 
> Me and some guys were just talking about Clinton last night. A brilliant communicator, and some great achievements during his Presidency, no doubt he thought he would be remembered as one of the good Presidents.
> 
> Then, in a fleeting moment, too much blood (or something) to the head, screws up, and THAT phrase is how he is remembered.


Umm....wrong thread?

Anyway...hmmm. Not sure what I should do, if anything. I want to make some splits anyway...The hive still has a lot of bees, less than my others but more than it went into the winter with.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Maybe. Although the on topic question I did ask you went unanswered.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> Maybe.


Well, I have no idea how Clinton came into this thread so I assume this was a reply to some other thread that you accidentally posted here. I really don't care if you talk about Clinton, I just don't see the connection to anything that was said in this thread. Maybe it just went over my head?



> WLC
> Re: DWV.....need advice please.
> 
> Oldtimer:
> ...


You mean this question? If you were directing that question at me then I can't answer, it wasn't my idea but it makes as much sense as anything.

Anyway, I've run out of time to do anything before I leave so I'm taking Bush's advice and waiting until I get back to make up my mind.

If I where to order new queens does anybody have recommendations? Is M. Bush going to sell queens this year?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK apologies Aerindel, the Clinton thing was a response to the cigar quote, I thought every American knew what that was about. If you didn't know that, would have seemed pretty strange, yes.

Google can fill it in for you, type in Clinton cigar.

And the question I asked was to you, as you were the one considering breeding from the weak hive, or at least the hive showing DWV. WLC came up with a good response, however I was interested in your own rationale, in view of your own philosophy and ideas expressed in your posts since you joined Beesource.

But hey, answering isn't compulsory, no big deal.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Oldtimer:

I did understand the 'Lewinsky' reference.
However, I was referring to winning a cigar at a carnival game.

There's more than one school of thought in treatment free circles in how to obtain resistant bees.

One is 'live and let die'. Another is feral trapouts. An emerging view is splitting weaker colonies. And of course, you can buy them.

I don't have enough hives for the first. I can't get to any swarms in the city. So, I'm left with the third and fourth options.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> And the question I asked was to you, as you were the one considering breeding from the weak hive, or at least the hive showing DWV. WLC came up with a good response, however I was interested in your own rationale, in view of your own philosophy and ideas expressed in your posts since you joined Beesource.
> 
> But hey, answering isn't compulsory, no big deal.


The choke hold has been applied. Fight through or tap-out?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> An emerging view is splitting weaker colonies.


My view on that would be fine, if they are requeened. But walkaway splits? Breeding from the weak would be a bad thing, wouldn't it?

Reading Aerindel, his main focus is don't treat, don't support the weak, don't breed from the weak. He believes treating makes weak bees.

But actually, treating does not make weak bees. Breeding from weak bees makes weak bees. Whether the choice of breeder colony has anything to do with treatment is a management decision.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> He believes treating makes weak bees.


No....I think it makes strong mites. There's a big difference. (Although it wouldn't surprise me if insecticides in the hive make those bees sick but that is totally different than genetic 'weakness'

Treating also lets weak bees survive and breed when they otherwise wouldn't but again, that is different than 'making' them weak.

This is all basic biology and shouldn't be in dispute. Its not specific to bees or insects, it applies to all life on earth and would be just as true if I was talking about rats and fleas or humans and bacteria. 




> My view on that would be fine, if they are requeened. But walkaway splits? Breeding from the weak would be a bad thing, wouldn't it?


I was actually wondering the same thing but you asked the question first and I thought the answer was a good one.

The reason I was considering it is that it was something I could actually hope to get done before I go away for three weeks. 

As I said in my first post, I would rather requeen from my best hive but I don't have time to start that process until I get back in three weeks. 

The other factor of course is that breeding from a weak hive is not guaranteed to make all weak queens (no more than breeding from a strong hive will make all strong ones) Since the new bees genetics will be a mix the old queen, the drones she mated with, and then the drones the new queen mates with there should be a range of genes to work with.

I like WLC's plan because it doesn't cost me anything. I split up a hive that is failing anyway and get to run a challenge test for resistance and I don't have to steal eggs from my best hives and slow them down. At worst I am right back where I started, at best I have some number of new stronger hives.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> He believes treating makes weak bees.





Aerindel said:


> No....I think it makes strong mites.


OK, if you say so. However my statement was based on your past posts, where you have stated that treating for parasites will make a weaker host.



Aerindel said:


> treatments will always make more resistant parasites and *weaker hosts*. Its been devastating to our own species, no reason to think it will work better with bees.


However thanks for explaining your current thinking, whether I agree or not, I was just interested in the rationale for what you wanted to do.


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