# swarm and supercedure queens



## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Just a question here. When a supercedure queen leaves on its mating flight what is the catalyst that makes it return to its hive--why does it not just leave as a regular swarm does?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm not sure I follow the question. A supercedure queen leaves to mate (with perhaps a few attendants who don't go all the way to the DCA with her) for the same reason any queen does and returns for the same reason. A queen bee can't do anything on her own other than mate.

If an unmated swarm queen is going to swarm she doesn't do it on a mating flight, she goes with the swarm, sets up housekeeping and THEN mates.

A supercedure queen doesn't leave because the hive has not made swarm preparations and is not communicating a plan to swarm by their sounds and/or possibly pheromones.

Besides, I don't think the queen has any real part in the decision to swarm. If she's clipped and they are determined to swarm they will eventually leave without her. So it would seem she just gets caught up in it, not that she's the cause of swarming.


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Michael Bush thanks for the as usual excellent answer--what I am trying to ask here is the difference in operating procedures between swarm queen and supercedure queen. I truly do not know the answer but I assume the first emerged supercedure queen eliminates the rest of the supercedure cells on the combs. I assume that after a maturing period of time the queen leaves to the DCA for mating and then after mating returns to the hive. Do any of the drones follow her back to the colony? Is there any unusual behavior, noises or sounds the hive makes when the supercedure queen leaves for mating?
Also is it a possibility that not only a supercedure happens but also swarming possibilities from the other queen cells?
Thanks


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I assume that after a maturing period of time the queen leaves to the DCA for mating and then after mating returns to the hive.

Yes.

>Do any of the drones follow her back to the colony?

Not that I've ever noticed, but drones drift a lot, so maybe I just missed that.

> Is there any unusual behavior, noises or sounds the hive makes when the supercedure queen leaves for mating?

Yes. They get quite excited before she flys and some workers may even fly out with her but then return. Sometimes they are clustered on the front of the hive looking like they're thinking about swarming. But I don't think they are.

>Also is it a possibility that not only a supercedure happens but also swarming possibilities from the other queen cells?

I've never seen it. The instinct for supercedure and the instinct for swarming are not that close. Yes, they both involve rearing queens, but for very different reasons. Swarming is usually a result of sucess. Superceudre is usually a result of failure.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I dont think the bees even quit working on a good supercedure. Swarming bees stop working well in advance to swarming, they are in a totally different mind set.

Then and again, some supercedures will turn into swarms, and many swarm cells turn into supercedures. So who really knows. 


One tip of advice I had gotten somewhere here, or there is never to clip cells, being supercedure. Apperently, many of the queens that are being replaced by supercedure are killed off around the time of cell elongation, and capping. Something to do with the queens reastlessness. 

I use this advice with swarming hives also after my swarm work is done, that is just because I dont have the time to continually work the brood during the flows. Finding a swarmign hive with cells during my splits and divides is convenient. Just a task of dividing all the brood, and food, with a bunch of cells in each split.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

<...many swarm cells turn into supercedures>

This is something that I'm trying to encourage in colonies that aren't slated for splitting. It seems like a very sensible way to reduce swarming.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>...many swarm cells turn into supercedures

>This is something that I'm trying to encourage in colonies that aren't slated for splitting. It seems like a very sensible way to reduce swarming. 

How will you encourage them to change from swarmiong to supercedures?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Not saying I promote it, it just happens. That grey area inbetween supercedure and swarming cells. I often wounder what external or internal factors influence either or...


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

"an unmated swarm queen is going to swarm she doesn't do it on a mating flight, she goes with the swarm, sets up housekeeping and THEN mates"

MB, that is a new one to me. I thought the old queen left with the swarm and the new unmated queen stayed with the hive AFTER mating.
Bill


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>How will you encourage them to change from swarmiong to supercedures?

Lemme guess- by pinching the old queen first? Is that what you had in mind Aspera? It's not supercedure really, but it would prevent swarming, at least temporarily. My guess however is that unless you alleviated the swarming impulse through other manipulations that the bees would still swarm with their new queen. I'd put this manipulation in the same swarm control bucket as I would destroying swarm cells to prevent swarming which is generally accepted as not working.

>I thought the old queen left with the swarm and the new unmated queen stayed with the hive AFTER mating.

The bees raise a number of swarm cells. It's not uncommon for hives to throw 1 or more "after swarms" in which a newly emerged and unmated queen leaves takes off with some of the remaining bees. I think of after swarms as adding "insult after injury".

>Swarming bees stop working well in advance to swarming, they are in a totally different mind set.

I have read this. I believe it, but I haven't noticed it yet, undoubtedly because I didn't know what was going on.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

<How will you encourage them to change from swarmiong to supercedures?>

I have been able to do it yet, but the plan is to kill the existing queen before the queen cells are capped, then remove frames of capped brood.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I thought the old queen left with the swarm and the new unmated queen stayed with the hive AFTER mating.

The old queen leaves with the primary swarm. The virgin queens leave with the afterswarms. The last one (hopefully) stays in the hive. The afterswarms settle in and then she mates.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>the plan is to kill the existing queen before the queen cells are capped, then remove frames of capped brood.

That's just crazy enough to work Aspera


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## louis1st (Oct 17, 2004)

Brother Adam tried to encourage supercedure with his bees. Any non swarming bees are good at superceding their queens (how otherwise would the colony survive beyond 3-4 years ?)

There is also a French breeder, who sells bee queens cells, and claims that if they are introduced in august/september, with a plastic queen cell protector, you get in about 50% of the cases, a supercedure.

give this a try this autumn!

[ January 13, 2006, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: louis1st ]


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

If a virgin queen is introduced into a hive, by the frount enterence, does the hive recognize her and kill her, or does the newly introduced virgin participate in supercedure just as if she had been made in that colony?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If a virgin queen is introduced into a hive, by the frount enterence, does the hive recognize her and kill her, or does the newly introduced virgin participate in supercedure just as if she had been made in that colony?

I've never tried the entrance. I've run one into the middle of the hive though. I haven't done it enough to have a feel for a success rate. Dee Lusby says she smokes them heavily and pries open between the two brood boxes and runs the virgin in and has about 80% or better success.


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

When my strain supersedes, the cells all hatch, and very often all the queens end up laying together perfectly peaceable. Eventually, the bees cut back to one; this usually sems to happen in the autumn. 

Introducing a cell to a queenright hive works well as a means of replacing a queen. I use cell protectors, but I'm not sure whether that's really needed.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

80% success is good results. I would imagine running them in the frount would be no different.,?

I am planning on doing this during the honeyflow, so I dont really want to have to lift the supers off to intoduce cells. Nor do I want to do this during the harvest. Kind of a bit of down time in the honey operation right after the supers go on. About three or four weeks forme. 

This method really interests me. I have toyed with the thought many times,.

Does Dee mean 80% replacement?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>80% success is good results. I would imagine running them in the frount would be no different.,?

I would guess it would be different. There are guard bees at the entrance. There are no guard bees in the middle. Given a choice between putting them in the top and putting them in the entrance, I'd go for the top before the entrance, but Dee prys open the middle and runs them in there. She also incubates the queens and believes that they shouldn't have the small of any attendants on them. It seems like the heavy smoke would cover that.

>Does Dee mean 80% replacement?

80% acceptance of the virgin queens, I beleive was what she said. You could search on here and maybe find her references to it.

I wonder if you put the cell in and let it emerge in the hive you want it in, if it wouldn't be even higher. It would just be a supercedure.


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

I've pulled virgins, run thm in at the entrance, and had no response from the guard bees. I prefer introducing cells though, it seems less risky.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

What do you figure your acceptance rate running them in was Robert?


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