# Apivar knock down! High brood loss and queen loss?



## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Did you use Apivar or homemade amitraz strips? I have never heard or read of an Apivar experience that is anything close to what you are describing. Formic and Thymol products can evoke significant rebellion within a colony. But Apivar?


----------



## Akademee (Apr 5, 2020)

Apivar is my go to so I might be able to shed some light on this. Apivar does not have high knock down to begin with, it only kills mites outside of the cappings on the adult bees. The apivar strips slowly release the miticide over about 2 months so ever generation of mites that emerge with the bees gets hit and dies. Eventually, there are no more mites to get under the cappings, but that takes at least 1 month to get there. 

Comb being chewed down and brood death right next to the strip is common, but it should not be enough to affect the brood at large. I have never had any problems with queen loss or major brood loss. You do have to be careful when installing the strips since you can crush the queen with the strips. You also have to make sure that you are putting the right amount of strips per population of bees.


----------



## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

psm1212 said:


> Did you use Apivar or homemade amitraz strips? I have never heard or read of an Apivar experience that is anything close to what you are describing. Formic and Thymol products can evoke significant rebellion within a colony. But Apivar?


Mine are store bought Apivar strips.


----------



## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

I have not seen queen loss or chewing up comb that with apivar strips. I have seen queens slow down or stop sometimes, but I have not lost any queens. 

How many strips did you put in each hive? How big were the hives?

Any chance there was some other factor that was harming the hives? (robbing, getting into chemicals, ect)


----------



## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

elmer_fud said:


> I have not seen queen loss or chewing up comb that with apivar strips. I have seen queens slow down or stop sometimes, but I have not lost any queens.
> 
> How many strips did you put in each hive? How big were the hives?
> 
> Any chance there was some other factor that was harming the hives? (robbing, getting into chemicals, ect)


Strong two and three deep supers on 8 frame hives 2 - 3 strips each depending on brood. Each hive started with 7- 10 frames of brood. The best hives now have 2 - 3. Chewing up comb is in every hive. They have chewed the comb back to the foundation around every strip. I assume they just tossed the brood from those areas?

Robbing from commercial bees is a possibility but the hives are at my home and I check them 2-3 times a day. If they are getting robbed it's subtle. There always seems to be bees looking for a way in but I have them blocked down to about 1 1/2 inch openings. I have thought that constance pressure could be a factor???


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

IF you don't hang the apivar, (I don't) the top box forces it into the comb and crushes the spot where the strip lands, I doubt the bees chew it down.


----------



## crab414 (Jan 6, 2020)

Then how can he see the foundation?


----------



## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

ifixoldhouses said:


> IF you don't hang the apivar, (I don't) the top box forces it into the comb and crushes the spot where the strip lands, I doubt the bees chew it down.


They need to be able to walk on it to spread the amitraz or they won't work.


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I hang it by the hanger that's on the strip, it sticks up an inch, the top box puts force on that 1 inch, and bends it into the side of the comb.


----------



## Western (May 29, 2016)

ifixoldhouses said:


> I hang it by the hanger that's on the strip, it sticks up an inch, the top box puts force on that 1 inch, and bends it into the side of the comb.


I use a wooden toothpick, sticks up about 1/4" and there is no torque applied shifting the strip out of center.

OP, sure you have plenty of stores? could be feed/flow related and little to do with the strips.


----------



## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Western said:


> I use a wooden toothpick, sticks up about 1/4" and there is no torque applied shifting the strip out of center.
> 
> OP, sure you have plenty of stores? could be feed/flow related and little to do with the strips.


Thanks for the reply. I also use toothpicks, and my hives are lead heavy with honey. if anything they are a little honey bound but I have been rotating in empty frames. I'm also feeding pollen patties, and hit them with a little sugar syrup just to see if I could stimulate a little laying with no luck.


----------



## Western (May 29, 2016)

I have been having drone brood taken out by the bees the last couple of days, looks like carnage until you go thru and see what they are pulling. I also have top boxes pretty full of stores with maybe 2 out of 8 frames open for brood, so pretty tight. My bottom boxs have more open frames as well


----------



## Akademee (Apr 5, 2020)

Are you sure you don't have some sort of brood disease that coincided with the installation of the strips?


----------



## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Akademee said:


> Are you sure you don't have some sort of brood disease that coincided with the installation of the strips?


I guess you never know 100% about that? I did see a little bald brood. Cause or effect?


----------



## Plannerwgp (May 18, 2019)

Just checked 10 of my hives after treatment with Apivar. About 6 were what I would refer to as dead with limited number of bees. No apparent disaease. I konw others have had great success with this product but I wil not use it again. I did better with no treatment. The hives treated with Hopguard all survived and are very strong. I used 2 strip of Apivar per brood chamber and followed the direcions.


----------



## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

Plannerwgp - just curious, but did you use Hopguard 3? What was your count going into treatment and what was it at the end with Hopguard?


----------



## Plannerwgp (May 18, 2019)

Kevinf said:


> Plannerwgp - just curious, but did you use Hopguard 3? What was your count going into treatment and what was it at the end with Hopguard?


My count before was about 10. I have not checked as of today. I only used one application and it is suggested that additional applications are needed.I will let you know when I take the next count. APIVAR is a strong chemical and it has to be used with care. I have been beekeeping for 10 years and the Apivar is not for me. Yes it was Hopguard #3.


----------



## KellyW (May 16, 2020)

Spadeapiaries... curious where you live and what the temperatures were during your Apivar treatment? I just finished an Apivar treatment per package directions and my colony is close to dead. Not sure if there is a queen currently or not but only scattered capped brood. During the 45 days I had several days in excess of 100F. Before the treatment it was a booming double deep colony but high mite count. When I removed the strips I consolidated the hive down to a single deep with a medium super on top with honey and pollen stores.

Now I said I followed the Apivar instructions, which I did. However, I was getting massive mite drops so I started a concurrent OAV treatment (pan type). So now I don't know if the colony bee numbers dropped drastically due to the Apivar treatment; Apivar with high temps; Apivar with OAV concurrently; or such a massive mite population that the die down was wholly due to mites.

Any thoughts?


----------



## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Only scattered capped brood is what I'm seeing a lot of. It never hit 100 here but high 90's for a while. My bee numbers are still high (for now) It's the brood that is missing.


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

KellyW said:


> Spadeapiaries... I was getting massive mite drops . So now I don't know if the colony bee numbers dropped drastically due to or such a massive mite population that the die down was wholly due to mites.
> 
> Any thoughts?


you probably answered the question of all the "failures" of apivar, crashing hives crash.


----------



## Plannerwgp (May 18, 2019)

I can state that at least 10 of my hives were large and thriving before Apivar. I also followed instructions and our temps were about 65-75 F. With 2 exceptions my hives are basically dead and by that I mean only a handful of bees remain that and they will soon be gone I have a about 10 years of experience and Iam not a scientist but I can see no disease in any of the hives. I have noticed darker comb, whichis not unusual. It appears the bees could not tolerate the chemicals in APIVAR and left. I am beginning to think there is a possible qaulity control issue with this product as it seems to be well accepted by many other beekeepers.


----------



## Lou from Export (Aug 16, 2015)

Spadeapiaries said:


> I have used Apivar on a few hives with high mite counts this spring with good results and no noticeable knockdown. With that in mind I treated all of my hives on 9/5 and I'm seeing high brood loss and queen loss in about 1/2 of my hives. Even the hives that look good only have a couple frames of brood. They chewed down ALL the comb and brood on both sides wherever the strips were and the queens just seem to stop laying if I can find them at all. It has been 25 days and I found hatched queen cells and a few virgins in some of the hives. I also only saw two drones so I'm not sure how well the virgins will do?
> 
> Did I get a HOT batch?
> 
> ...


How many strips did you apply per hive ?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I have done thousands of treatments with Apivar. Never seen it kill bees once, other than brood trapped under the strips.

I do see combs cut down to the foundation under the strips. Wether or not the bees do this depends on the comb spacing. If 33 mm wide end bars are used and the combs tight to each other, the bees have to cut back the comb under the strips. Wider spacings they do not have to.

Now that I'm retired and have the time, I get called upon by a lot of hobbyists who have problems with their bees. One of the things that crops up is "I treated but the bees died anyway". If I go and take a look, from the autopsy it can most often be seen that the hive was past the point of no return, before the treatment was put in.

To the OP, there could be several causes for your issues. I would suggest taking it up with the manufacturers, and if possible send them an unused strip to have a look at, or if not possible, the batch number of your strips. If there was something wrong with the batch, they may have had other complaints. Without at the least a batch number, they will be unable to investigate. When I took up a problem years ago with the manufacturers of Apivar (who are in France), they took it seriously, investigated thoroughly, and ended up with a resolution. I was impressed by them and believe they stand by their product, and did an honest investigation.


----------



## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Lou from Export said:


> How many strips did you apply per hive ?


2-3 depending on brood. Most were 3 story deeps.


----------



## Plannerwgp (May 18, 2019)

Since many of my colonies are also about dead, I will. Ever use this product again. Can you tell me where you purchased your Apivar? I ordered thru Amazon but it was supplied by Mannlake. To say the least I am very unhappy.


----------



## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Plannerwgp said:


> Since many of my colonies are also about dead, I will. Ever use this product again. Can you tell me where you purchased your Apivar? I ordered thru Amazon but it was supplied by Mannlake. To say the least I am very unhappy.


Mine came from Dadant in Chico but it all came from the same place to start with.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Spadeapiaries said:


> Strong two and three deep supers on 8 frame hives 2 - 3 strips each depending on brood. Each hive started with 7- 10 frames of brood. The best hives now have 2 - 3. Chewing up comb is in every hive. They have chewed the comb back to the foundation around every strip. I assume they just tossed the brood from those areas?
> 
> Robbing from commercial bees is a possibility but the hives are at my home and I check them 2-3 times a day. If they are getting robbed it's subtle. There always seems to be bees looking for a way in but I have them blocked down to about 1 1/2 inch openings. I have thought that constance pressure could be a factor???


Seriously, seriously doubt this is apivar.

Apivar is not harmless at all, but chewed up brood comb doesn't come from apivar unless you got a radioactive batch from Chernobyl.

What you're describing is ROBBING.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Plannerwgp said:


> I can state that at least 10 of my hives were large and thriving before Apivar. I also followed instructions and our temps were about 65-75 F. With 2 exceptions my hives are basically dead and by that I mean only a handful of bees remain that and they will soon be gone I have a about 10 years of experience and Iam not a scientist but I can see no disease in any of the hives. I have noticed darker comb, whichis not unusual. It appears the bees could not tolerate the chemicals in APIVAR and left. I am beginning to think there is a possible qaulity control issue with this product as it seems to be well accepted by many other beekeepers.


Again, I do have my suspicions that apivar is not to blame here. 

Bees absconding from apivar...hmmmmmmmm.

I'm not an advocate for apivar, but from my experience it's well tolerated, even at doses beyond the recommendation.

These strips are manufactured in France, from my understanding - moreover, the strips are not designed in such a way that they could have too much chemical. Basically just plastic infused with amitraz...it's not like MAQS that's just dripping with chemical.

Either the bees absconded for a different reason, or there is a really serious QC issue with your strips.

Save those strips and send them back to the manufacturer for testing, or file a lawsuit against them.

If you file a lawsuit, that will force their hand to some degree. 10 hives lost? File a lawsuit and let us know what happens.


----------

