# Lost All



## Tommy (Oct 9, 2005)

I checked on my queen cells Friday and they had all been destroyed. I know for sure the queen was in the bottom box with an excluder on.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Maybe one hatched. I lost 65 cells in three cell starters because one hatched early in each one. If they were tore open from the side, you definity have either a virgin or a mated queen in there somewhere.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Hold on there... who says that a mere queen excluder with the
queen below is going to "protect" queen cells above that 
excluder?

The queen pheromones are carried around on the (by the) worker
bees, so queen cells need to be raised by a queenless split if
you want to be sure that the bees will raise and hatch the 
queen cells rather than tear them down.

The bees likely knew they had a decent queen, and tore down
the queen cells.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>> Hold on there... who says that a mere queen excluder with the
queen below is going to "protect" queen cells above that 
excluder?<<

>>The queen pheromones are carried around on the (by the) worker
bees, so queen cells need to be raised by a queenless split if
you want to be sure that the bees will raise and hatch the 
queen cells rather than tear them down.<<

I do. I raise my cells in a queenless starter, until they are sealed. At that point, the old queen's hive is brought back and united with the cell builder. For the remaining 5 days, the cells are above an excluder, above the queenright portion of the colony. The only time I've lost a batch of queens was either...the old queen was shaken into the cell builder by mistake, a cell hatched out early...either one of mine, or a wild one already in the hive, or a virgin entered the hive from another hive. 

Many good cells are reared in a quenless starter, and finished above the queenright finisher.


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## Iowabeeman (Mar 9, 2003)

Our finishers are queenright.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

All our finishers are queenright. The grafts are put in a queenless starter then in about 24 hours put in the queenright hive over an excluder until ready to transfer to the mating nuc, so they are in there over a week. I have never had the bees tear down these cells wholesale although they will sometimes thin the ranks a bit, disgarding imperfect grafts, I assume.
I always figured that the nurse bees taking care of the queens-to-be just do the job someone else started, they must 'think' _someone_ thought they needed a queen. Theirs is not to wonder why........
Sheri


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Hot weather will cause the queens to emerge early and, the early queen kills them all. I just lost all the queens in three queenless cell starters that shouldn't have emerged for two more days. I should have allowed for the heat. Cold weather can slow them down as much as three days also.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Michael, how early has your earliest hatch been? I start getting a little nervous on day 14, especially if it's warm. Looks like I should be REALLY nervous!
Sheri


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

The ones I lost were due to one hatching early was on day eight. I chalked it up to grafting one larva that was older than the rest. I think that plays into it somewhere, although I don't know if MB's were grafted or out of his Jenter system, which should elimate that type of problem.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

peggjam sezs:
I think that plays into it somewhere, although I don't know if MB's were grafted or out of his Jenter system, which should elimate that type of problem

tecumseh suggest:
at times if you use seperate starter/finishers the manipulation of the finishers itself will create the circumstance where a queen cell is generated on the frames within the finisher. even if the processes are combined a possiblility exist that one cell in the unit contain an egg which become a wild cell which could endanger all those cultivated cells. my point being that you may reduce the possibility, but you will never likely totally eliminate this kind of problem. 

temperature and humidity also seem to play a significant role in how long a queen cell takes to hatch.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

peggjam,
are you saying day eight, as in grafting on day 1 and counting to eight?

If you graft a four day egg(a one day larvae), and count eight days, then you would be at day 12. Queens usually hatch on day 16, even assuming a day earlier being day 15, it would suggest that this queen was about three days early. So did you graft a 7 day egg/larvae?

Not sure if I am reading this correctly. I think it suggests that there was a queen cell on one of the frames. Thus the kills were not from your grafting skills.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

BjornBee said:


> peggjam,
> are you saying day eight, as in grafting on day 1 and counting to eight?
> 
> If you graft a four day egg(a one day larvae), and count eight days, then you would be at day 12. Queens usually hatch on day 16, even assuming a day earlier being day 15, it would suggest that this queen was about three days early. So did you graft a 7 day egg/larvae?
> ...


After rereading my notes, she hatched on day 9 from grafting. At least that is the way it looked. It could have been a rougae cell, as I neglected to check all the frames in the starter for a few days. Sometimes I suspect they remove larva from the grafting frame and secert them away in a queen cell on a frame that you neglect to check. They sure do come up with a queen from thin air. I graft the larva I can't see, and only know they are there because of the small amount of RJ in the cell. If you are using a bamboo grafting tool, and hold a light under the tounge, then you can verify that you have them, otherwise you are going on blind luck.......

But I do think that a larva that is 12 hours older than the youngest larva you graft can and will hatch sooner than the youngest ones. We have also had a run of really hot weather, which seems to also play a role in hatching time. Anyway, it happened in 3 cell starters on the same bunch of grafts that were done the same day. Weird............


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I use the Cloake board method and after my queen cells are started (24hrs after graft) I remove the slide making the colony queenright. The starter portion of the colony is only queenless for 48hrs. They stay in a queenright hive until 1-2 days before emergence above a queen excluder.

I've never had my cells torn down but I had a close call once when I found a rouge cell I'd missed and it was probably a day away from emergence. It is of course possible that a queen slipped thru an excluder or if in a mating yard a virgin from a neighboring mating nuc drifted into the wrong colony.

That would just suck... having them torn down. I'm always paranoid that the next batch will be the one!


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Bees build queen cells as a response to theirs needs, supersedure, emergency and swarming. In our breading efforts we mostly use the emergency cell building instinct creating a queen less environment. When we change the environment after the start the cells, normaly after 24 hours, the bees continue feeding these cells, even the is a contradiction between the reason they started those cells and actual conditions, so we fool them. They will be fooled till the conditions are changed. The main culprit is the change of weather and lack of food. If this happens their mood changes and they may destroy the cells.
This is a proven fact that is observed on a colony that was on the verge of swarming, delayed and canceled by bad weather, in that case the bees destroyed all the cells.

Gilman


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

bleta12 said:


> In our breading efforts




So does frying them after you bread them interfere with queen viability?

Kidding, just kidding. . . . 

Keith


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Keith Benson said:


> So does frying them after you bread them interfere with queen viability?
> 
> Kidding, just kidding. . . .
> 
> Keith


 
I sow your label Keith,

Very nice.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Thanks!

Keith


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## Tommy (Oct 9, 2005)

I took the cell bar to our bee meeting last night and most said that they though I had a queen to hatch early. If this is the case, then it was 2 days early. I know our weather is very hot now( 90's) and this may have played a part.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

peggjam,
Most books have a schedule listing pulling of the cells on day 14. I have had the time ot two when one came out early and wiped out all the cells. Last year I went to a remote yard and made 32 starter nucs. Had them lined up in the yard after driving them home, went to grab the cells, and all were killed. After that I started pulling my cells on day 13. Not really sure why the books even suggest waiting till day 14, when there is no danger in pulling them on day 13.

I also have bought a good number of "hair curler" type queen cages (from BetterBee) It adds an extra step, but I have twice now did not know if I could have all my cells pulled in time. They kept the queens safe and once the remaining batch hatched out, I stuck the curler in the nuc for 24 hours and then manaully released her(them). So far every one took, with no losses. I did have three cells not open at all, and figure it saved me from finding a queenless nuc a week or more after I installed them. Less waste of resources.

These curler type cages would certainly protect your grafted cells in case you did miss a rogue cell from time to time.


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## Tommy (Oct 9, 2005)

I think I will try the curlers or either pull them after they are capped and place in a incubator.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I thought about using the cages once they were capped, but I guess I haven't lost enough cells yet.....to encourage me to add the extra step.

It does suck when they get wiped out that way, especailly sense I had pulled the bars and counted the cells so I could set up mating nucs for them. Oh well, I used the extra bees I shook that day to set up another cell starter.

I have my first mated queen in a mini mating nuc that I built. It's kinda cool, but they haven't drawn all the comb yet, and she doesn't have near enough room to lay, is that going to bother any? Thanks.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Removing cells right after they are sealed and placing them in an incubator provides some security. You can keep the temp constant. One does need an incubator though. We found ours on ebay for $40.00 (including shipping).

We either emerge the cells in modified cages or plant them in nucs on day 14-15.

Having a whole bunch of beautiful cells town down is tough to deal with. I've been there too... 

Adam
[email protected]


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

May I ask what kind of incubator did you find?? I've been using the roller cages once they're capped. I like the peace of mind. Worked so far.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Hello Brandy,
The Incubator we use is a Precision Gravity Convection Incubator. It has a thermostat and we calibrate it with a standard lab thermometer. Around 90-92 degrees F. Keep a cup of water in there for humidity. 

It makes great yogurt in the off season!

Adam
[email protected]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In this case I grafted some and transfered some, all from the Jenter box. It was day 14 from the egg when they emerged. Very unusual, but in hot weather it happens. It happened on every cell starter. 

I've seen them take as short as 14 days and as long as 19 days to emerge.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Michael Bush said:


> ... It was day 14 from the egg when they emerged. Very unusual, but in hot weather it happens. It happened on every cell starter. .....


Oh great, and here I've been confident because I was installing the cells in the nucs on day 14.5. Ignorance is bliss I guess. Maybe EARLY on day 14 would make me sleep better, lol.
Sheri


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Sherri,
Thats why I go with day 13.... 

As a side note, I grafted two days ago. Checked last night...not one take. Zip, null, nodda!

Going out this morning to find that OTHER queen. No wonder it was a booming hive! Gotta love it...


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

LOL, yeah Mike, while sometimes ya can't keep a queen in there to save the colony's life, try to keep them queenless and they make a queen out of air. Sometimes I think bees are just ornery. But ya know, if it was easy it wouldn't be near as satisfying when things go right!
So, day 13 it will be. Gotta handle them more carefully that young, I would imagine they are still pretty soft.
Sheri


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

BjornBee said:


> Sherri,
> Thats why I go with day 13....
> 
> As a side note, I grafted two days ago. Checked last night...not one take. Zip, null, nodda!
> ...


Yup, had one of my cell starters do the same thing. Lucky for me though, I found her on the first frame I pulled. Regrafted last night, and hope something takes this time.

How many rounds of cells do you try to put through a cell starter before you break them up for mating nucs?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

2 works well. The third one doesn't do as well.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Depends if you add a frame of brood and adhering bees.....


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Chef Isaac said:


> Depends if you add a frame of brood and adhering bees.....


I add in 3 frames of sealed brood every 10 days or so, does that count?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

yes it does count.

Pegg: ever try using a smoke up box instead of shaking frames when putting together a cell builder?

By the way, when you break your cell builder up into mating nucs, move your mating nucs away from the location where your cell builder was or you will have problems with them drifting to the orginal area. I had this problem.....


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Chef Isaac said:


> yes it does count.
> 
> Pegg: ever try using a smoke up box instead of shaking frames when putting together a cell builder?
> 
> By the way, when you break your cell builder up into mating nucs, move your mating nucs away from the location where your cell builder was or you will have problems with them drifting to the orginal area. I had this problem.....


Chef

No, I have never used a smoke up box.

I lock the girls in for 3 days(72 hours) and then let them out, that stops drifting back to the old location. That is, as long as they can't get out......


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I just lost a batch of cells because I had taken the queen out of a strong hive to make up a new cell starter and put her in a nuc in the same yard. She absconded about five days later and went home. Found her happily laying in her old hive when I went looking for the cause of the disaster. I actually observed the absconding after I found her outside the nuc a couple days earlier but she flew before I could catch her. It never dawned on me to look in the old hive when I couldn't find her hanging up in a cluster anywhere.


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