# Best way to establish a two queen hive setup?



## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

I'd like to establish a two queen setup next spring, with either two of my current colonies or two packages I'll purchase. My plan is to have a double deep setup, then slide the hives together flush, add a queen excluder over the top boxes so that it straddles both hives, then add honey supers on top. The open sides of the hive would be covered.

With this method, how would I best merge the colonies if I use my existing bees? I would think they would mingle in the honey supers and fight, correct? Should I add newspaper under the queen excluder so they meet slowly?

Ultimately, is this just a horrible idea? I have lots of customers wanting some honey, I have hundreds of acres of foraging woods/fields for the bees to access, and I just want to maximize honey output.

Also, if you have any reading recommendations for me on the topic, I'd appreciate it!


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Go to Honey Bee Suite.com Rusty just posted a blog on this. Deb


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

we did an experiment similar to what you want. we had two double med hives pushed tight together. then we put a qx and a stack of supers above. at the end of the season they didn't make any more than most single hives. there was no fighting and both queens were ok in the fall. a single hive with a 2 queen system would have made more honey. I only tried this one time so really this was a good test. I had expected them to fill supers above my head. on the outside of both hives I just laid pcs of a board to cover the extra opening. your results will be interesting. like I said I only did this once with one hive. It did look kind of cool though.


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

Cloverdale said:


> Go to Honey Bee Suite.com Rusty just posted a blog on this. Deb





beeware10 said:


> we did an experiment similar to what you want. we had two double med hives pushed tight together. then we put a qx and a stack of supers above. at the end of the season they didn't make any more than most single hives. there was no fighting and both queens were ok in the fall. a single hive with a 2 queen system would have made more honey. I only tried this one time so really this was a good test. I had expected them to fill supers above my head. on the outside of both hives I just laid pcs of a board to cover the extra opening. your results will be interesting. like I said I only did this once with one hive. It did look kind of cool though.


Thanks guys! I got the notion from Honey Bee suite bug hoped others had experience with it or more info sources.

The reason I'm looking at my setup was so that I can work both hives easier, rather than having to take down one hive to get to the bottom. Also, I know the bees could get confused with the brood nest layout being different. 

Could I use a known good queen in the bottom two deeps, use a newspaper combine with a qx, then add a new queen/hive on top...then add supers? I'd be relying on my good queen tondo her thing and me not check the bottom boxes due to the extra work...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I had two hives that were double deep excluder three medium supers division board Another deep brood above. After a few times, you get lazy about doing necessary inspections so the odds are you run an increase risk of swarms. I bet few people do them beyond the experiment stage.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

No experience with this but wouldn't a hive with twice the bees consume twice the honey during dearth? Take the good with the bad I guess.


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## shawn.rae (Sep 4, 2015)

I used a 2 Queen method in the past, and plan to use it again in 2016. I had 1 brood nest on top of the other. Connors book Increase essential mentions it a little at the back. he recommends using the system when there is a major predictable flow that you are trying to obtain. The reason being is that when I run the system I combine the hives at the end of June. Thus at the start of July when I will obtain my Sumach and Clover flow, the brood nest is shrinking, the larva in need of feeding being reduced back to that of a 1 queen hive. This frees up more bees to forage, or moving nectar in the hive. Thus when the dearth comes in August my population will start declining. Thus addressing the concern of bees eating 2X the honey.

The USDA has a good article called Two-Queen System of Honey bee Colony Management (old but I did read it just this morning), which is very similar to what I did. My process was from OB Wiser's Wall Street Beekeeper article in the mid 90s.
Louis Snelgrove's book on Swarm Control talks of setting up a 2 queen hive in a means of swarm control, as he was basically taking a Nuc from the brood nest thus addressing congrestion. Also with 2 queens you will hav emore Queen substance in the hive so should have less swarming.

If you wanted to maintain 2 seperate brood nests for the entire year with the bees putting the honey in 1 central tower, I would use a top bar hive with a divider cutting the box into two, with the honey supers being stacked above this point with a built in queen excluder.


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

shawn.rae said:


> I used a 2 Queen method in the past, and plan to use it again in 2016. I had 1 brood nest on top of the other. Connors book Increase essential mentions it a little at the back. he recommends using the system when there is a major predictable flow that you are trying to obtain. The reason being is that when I run the system I combine the hives at the end of June. Thus at the start of July when I will obtain my Sumach and Clover flow, the brood nest is shrinking, the larva in need of feeding being reduced back to that of a 1 queen hive. This frees up more bees to forage, or moving nectar in the hive. Thus when the dearth comes in August my population will start declining. Thus addressing the concern of bees eating 2X the honey.
> 
> The USDA has a good article called Two-Queen System of Honey bee Colony Management (old but I did read it just this morning), which is very similar to what I did. My process was from OB Wiser's Wall Street Beekeeper article in the mid 90s.
> Louis Snelgrove's book on Swarm Control talks of setting up a 2 queen hive in a means of swarm control, as he was basically taking a Nuc from the brood nest thus addressing congrestion. Also with 2 queens you will hav emore Queen substance in the hive so should have less swarming.
> ...


Lots of good info! I appreciate it!

My big flows come April-May, so I'm not sure packages could even build up fast enough to catch it, and I'd hate to risk my current good queens to bee wars, as I bred them all this year from local stock and had been reproducing at a great rate. 

I'll look into those articles you mentioned. The idea of two queens seems logical to me, but I'm not sure if it's worth the extra work for ~10% more honey than a standard setup.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've done it a variety of ways:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestwoqueenhive.htm

But the simplest is to just put an excluder in between two boxes with brood and leave them alone. The side without the queen usually raises one. Just make sure the drones can get out on both sides (at least a 3/8" hole on both sides).


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> I've done it a variety of ways:
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beestwoqueenhive.htm
> 
> But the simplest is to just put an excluder in between two boxes with brood and leave them alone. The side without the queen usually raises one. Just make sure the drones can get out on both sides (at least a 3/8" hole on both sides).


With your setup, would you propose that I just leave the bottom boxes under the excluder to be brood and add honey supers to just the top boxes above the excluder? 

And is an excluder enough to keep queens from potentially fighting through it?

Still is odd to me that I've seen bees attack other bees who have been introduced to a foreign hive, but two colonies can exist in the same structure no problem.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

phyber said:


> I'd like to establish a two queen setup next spring, with either two of my current colonies or two packages I'll purchase. My plan is to have a double deep setup, then slide the hives together flush, add a queen excluder over the top boxes so that it straddles both hives, then add honey supers on top. The open sides of the hive would be covered.
> 
> With this method, how would I best merge the colonies if I use my existing bees? I would think they would mingle in the honey supers and fight, correct? Should I add newspaper under the queen excluder so they meet slowly?
> 
> ...


Assuming Southern VA honey flow is similar to Piedmont NC. You can probably stack about 3 supers on the bottom brood box over a queen excluder. Use a Snelgrove board under the top brood box. 

We have a short intense honey flow. I do not usually bother the bees during the flow anyway, other than to look in the top super to see if I need to add one. If I have 3 supers on, I probably won't need to do this. If I find my honey flow is extreme in the un-doubled colonies, I will pull the top box and check. If we have that good a flow, I won't mind.


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

dsegrest said:


> Assuming Southern VA honey flow is similar to Piedmont NC. You can probably stack about 3 supers on the bottom brood box over a queen excluder. Use a Snelgrove board under the top brood box.
> 
> We have a short intense honey flow. I do not usually bother the bees during the flow anyway, other than to look in the top super to see if I need to add one. If I have 3 supers on, I probably won't need to do this. If I find my honey flow is extreme in the un-doubled colonies, I will pull the top box and check. If we have that good a flow, I won't mind.


so the setup would look like:
bottom board - brood box - brood box - queen excluder - brood box - honey super- honey super- honey super


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I tried the "skyscraper" 2 queen. It ended up 11 mediums tall. 5 brood & 8 supers, configured 2 brood, QE, 3 supers, QE, 3 brood, 3 supers ( all they would fill). 

I wouldn't recommend the "stack method". I was MUCH younger, and it was still a beast. I DID find a use for those unused deeps - building a platform to work it. I got better average production from 2 individual hives. Every year, and ever location/flow pattern is different, so "your results may vary" may sound generic.

I still consider it a good "learning experience".

Good luck.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

You could do that. I will probably only do one bottom brood box. The Snelgrove board requires some manipulation. It has 3 sides with double entrances. You use the top entrance on one side for a few days then open the bottom entrance and close the top to "fool the foragers" into going into the bottom hive. At this time you open the top entrance on another side. 

You have to be careful with your manipulations to make sure the top brood nest does not get so depleted of foragers as to be unable to feed itself. When the main honey flow ends, pull the top brood box off and give it it's own super to fill for winter. Pull the honey supers and give the bottom a new super for winter or just return the supers to the too hives after extracting for them to clean and refill for winter. If you have a dearth feed.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

phyber said:


> so the setup would look like:
> bottom board - brood box - brood box - queen excluder - brood box - honey super- honey super- honey super


 Sorry didn't answer the question properly. I'm not really a politician. The setup is

Bottom board, Brood box, QE, 3 supers, Snelgrove board, Brood box, Covers


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