# I broke a cardinal rule in beekeeping



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Earlier this summer I took a two week trip with family. Then in early August I took a weeklong trip with some friends. I haven't done anything like this in years. I knew beforehand that these trips would put me behind but thought I could catch up. Not so. So now...doing my mite treatments three or four weeks late....I'm finding dwv and pms on a scale I haven't ever seen. I am expecting unusually large losses this winter.
The cardinal rule....if you are going to be a serious beekeeper......the bees come first. I won't forget anytime soon.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very sorry to hear your report dan. do you have an estimate on what percentage of your colonies we're talking about?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Sorry to hear that. Been there myself, on a much smaller scale I'm sure, but it still gets to you.

The bees are very resilient and can take quite a bit of abuse. But I've learned 2 things I cannot bend on without paying a big price ... swarm control in the spring, and mite control late summer. Fudging on either one destroys so much effort that was made during the rest of the year.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> very sorry to hear your report dan. do you have an estimate on what percentage of your colonies we're talking about?


In the past few days I have seen more dwv than I've ever seen....probably significant in half of the hives I've inspected so far. PMS not necessarily on a full collapse scale but noticeable on many....maybe forty percent. How many will survive the winter? No idea. I am in uncharted territory here. Surely more than the five or so percent I lost last year.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Work some mite tolerant genetics into your colonies. You will be able to take a vacation without so much worry.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Especially with an apivar treatment.


Fusion_power said:


> Work some mite tolerant genetics into your colonies. You will be able to take a vacation without so much worry.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

What do you treat with, beemandan?


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

"The cardinal rule....if you are going to be a serious beekeeper......the bees come first."

Never spoken more true words. Sorry to hear about your troubles. Nothing keeps your boxes full of healthy bees the effective timely mite treatments


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Good Luck Dan. G


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

beemandan said:


> The cardinal rule....if you are going to be a serious beekeeper......the bees come first. I won't forget anytime soon.


One needs to try to find a balance between work and family. I took an extended Labor Day weekend when we were already running behind. Did it cost me from a beekeeping perspective? Probably. But I made some great memories and there will still be plenty of bees to go around.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

jim lyon said:


> One needs to try to find a balance between work and family. I took an extended Labor Day weekend when we were already running behind. Did it cost me from a beekeeping perspective? Probably. But I made some great memories and there will still be plenty of bees to go around.


Very well said Jim.:thumbsup: G


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

My family and friends pretty much know how my schedule runs. 7 days a week from March through September. I considered both trips 'once in a lifetime'....and so, I'd probably do them both again. Having said that, I will do everything in my power to make future events happen between October and March.

I've had 'treatment free' genetics in yards in the past. I've had pure Russians, Dann Purvis queens and ferals, just to name a few. They might survive a little longer untreated but I've never found any that survived tf. And those that went untreated were also significantly and consistently less productive. I bought some VSH queens from Broke-T earlier this year. I expect to treat them as well. I depend on the income from my bees. They must be healthy and productive. If I had a dozen hives in my backyard and it were simply a pastime without concern for losses....I'd likely play with tf.

I am using Apiguard this year. I will probably do an OAV round sometime in December. Maybe MAQS next year.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> The cardinal rule....if you are going to be a serious beekeeper......the bees come first.


Nothing could be further from the truth ... I never made that rule.

The Cardinal rule is "if you want bees to be dependent on you, well then baby them". That is what you will have.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Nothing could be further from the truth ... I never made that rule.
> 
> The Cardinal rule is "if you want bees to be dependent on you, well then baby them". That is what you will have.


From reading your many posts it's abudantly clear you are not a serious beekeeper in any sense of the term.
A hot air blower, yes.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Nothing could be further from the truth ... I never made that rule.
> 
> The Cardinal rule is "if you want bees to be dependent on you, well then baby them". That is what you will have.



I imagine that if your family's source of income depended upon the livelihood of your bees you would have a completely different perspective. I think you just made his point very clear.



> I depend on the income from my bees. They must be healthy and productive. If I had a dozen hives in my backyard and it were simply a pastime without concern for losses....I'd likely play with tf.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> A hot air blower, yes.


My wife's blow dryer is offended by being lumped in with Ace.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> My family and friends pretty much know how my schedule runs. ... I will do everything in my power to make future events happen between October and March.


Another approach is to have someone else do what needed to be done while you were gone.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

If it's simply a matter of scheduling, that would be an unnecessary expense and deducted right from his margins. 

Hindsight is 20/20. I imagine if he knew how bad the impact would be by delaying the treatments he might have been better off economically to hire someone to fill in. It's easy to make those judgements when you are looking in the rear view mirror.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Actually, if you think about it, how easy do you think it would be to hire an experienced temporary beekeeper? One that you could drop in the field at a moment's notice and trust to do the same job you would. Such a thing, if it could even be found, would be prohibitively expensive.
I knew the risks when I took the trips. I was unreasonably hopeful that I could make up the time. I don't know of any experienced, good quality beekeepers who would be willing to work for me for three weeks in midsummer...for any price I could pay.
Nope...my choice as I saw and still see it is to either not go on the trips or to go and pay the piper. The piper is now taking his/her due.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

That would be a tough expense to swallow. Not so bad for Acebird who would only be hiring the neighbor kid to come kick the side of his hive and see if bees come out.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

I wish I knew how to insert the laughing emoji because I'm on the floor right now. Sorry Ace, but you have to admit the image this brings to mind is hilarious.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> hiring the neighbor kid to come kick the side of his hive and see if bees come out.


 :lpf: (Posted at the same time as mcon672!)

beemandan,

Is it to late to treat your hives and be ok??? I just started treating mine last week, second treatments were yesterday and this afternoon. :s


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

beemandan-- how long before your queens begin to shut down?
isn't there a chance that you can get enough brood cycles this fall for good winter
bees?
have you considered apivar given the circumstances?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

thehackleguy said:


> Is it to late to treat your hives and be ok??? I just started treating mine last week, second treatments were yesterday and this afternoon.


Hard to say for sure. It depends on where you are....and in MI, I'd think you are very late. It also depends on how heavily parasitized your bees are.
Here in north GA I usually begin treating in mid to late August. I want a couple of healthy brood cycles before they begin making winter bees. I expect that I'll be lucky to get one cycle. Up your way, I'd suspect that your bees are already well underway making winter bees. Will your bees and mine be ok? Fingers are crossed here. 
Good luck.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Interesting, now I'm curious. My hives are super strong and full of brood still (all stages). I guess I'll find out and treat earlier next year if I have to.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> beemandan-- how long before your queens begin to shut down?
> isn't there a chance that you can get enough brood cycles this fall for good winter
> bees?
> have you considered apivar given the circumstances?


Most of the bees here don't shut down entirely during the winter. They are probably already reducing brood production. I've seen a lot of emerging brood without very much new brood refilling the empty cells. I don't think Apivar would improve my chances. My first rounds of Apiguard are going on now...and the second round in another couple of weeks. 28 days total treatment vs 42 with Apivar. 
I'm sure (hope?) the great majority of my colonies will survive. I just expect higher than normal losses. Which in turn means I can sell fewer nucs in the spring. And will have fewer production colonies making a surplus next year. As I said...just paying the piper. 
I won't go hungry. I will still be able to pay my taxes. I may not be able to afford three weeks of travelling next year....which is probably a good thing.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Best of luck, beemandan.

Out of curiosity why not trial a faster treatment like MAQS along side what you currently are using? Would net you 21 more days of bees relatively free of mite load. Which happens to be another brood cycle.

I just used it for the first time this year and only OAV before that. But we are in vastly different climates, obviously. Happy with the ease and results.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

jwcarlson--
I do not know the condition of beemans hives but
my personal experience is that maqs can be detrimental to an already severly weakened colony.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

When I ordered the Apiguard I still hoped for a late August early September treatment. Ordinarily the temps here are pretty high for MAQS. If I'd known then that I wouldn't be starting until late September, I would have gotten MAQS. As it is....I still have 6 tubs of Apiguard....so that's what I'm using.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> my personal experience is that maqs can be detrimental to an already severly weakened colony.


I don't doubt that. And I certainly don't have enough experience with it. I did treat a nuc in the process of crashing 5 over 5 frames. Queen immediately started laying better and other than decreased entrance activity during treatment I didn't notice anything bad. Also treated a weak "full size" in quotes. They seemed to worse for the wear despite being very small. Wanted to make sure my colonies were at the very least relatively mite clean for combining as needed here shortly.

Obviously if you've got a couple hundred crashing hives the results may be significantly less in your favor when rolling the dice that much. Is it a legit concern if you feel the colony is already too weak to make it? Seems like if you really feel that poorly about them what's the difference in how you treat or if you don't treat at all? Honest question. Like I said. My concern was having little mite bombs that I might be combining with other hives.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> my personal experience is that maqs can be detrimental to an already severly weakened colony.


The same is true with Apiguard. Mine aren't severely weakened at this point, in my opinion.....just noticeably worse than I usually find them in August.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beemandan said:


> The same is true with Apiguard.


What do you find happening with really weak colonies treated with Apiguard?

I did as much reading as I could about both and I found quite a few people saying they had queen issues with Apiguard that made me believe that much of the MAQS queen issues (and maybe queen issues in general) are probably linked to people seeing crawlers and DWV and plopping in a treatment. They come back in a week or two and see that the queen was superceded. Of course that process could have or even likely would have happened regardless of their treating or not. But because of the proximity they assume the treatment caused it.

I'll be interested to hear your results.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> wish I knew how to insert the laughing emoji because I'm on the floor right now.

If you don't have access to the point-n-click emoji (smiley) window, you can still use smileys by inserting their text codes, which typically start and end with colons. The forum software will recognize the code bracketed by the colons and substitute the correct icon. For instance the :lpf: icon's text code is :lpf:

Another favorite of mine is  which is :eek:







'


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

If the bees and colony in general are already collapsing, then any additional stress will hasten that collapse. I think many of the so called 'soft treatments' are stressful. You tend to see the bees on the front of the hives fanning...an overt sign of stress. With Apiguard, I've seen brood production temporarily stop (mostly at higher temps). MAQS is famous for queen failures. They all have to be strong enough to kill mites yet not kill the bees. That doesn't mean that they aren't disruptive. Vaporized oxalic acid is claimed to have no effect on the bees. I don't really believe that but I accept that it is much less stressful than MAQS or the thymol treatments.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

beemandan said:


> Vaporized oxalic acid is claimed to have no effect on the bees. I don't really believe that but I accept that it is much less stressful than MAQS or the thymol treatments.


I totally agree! Everything that goes in has an effect on them to some extent. I kill a few everytime just from the heating of the pan of OA. But as long as they are not next to it they seem to fair pretty well.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

MAQS certainly curtailed egg laying in pretty much all my hives for a few days even at low temps we has first first days highs of 70-75. A couple appeared entirely unphased. 

I guess my thinking is that if a treatment is going to knock them off... winter certainly was going to. So if you hasten the collapse is there really anything additional lost? Certainly three weekly OAV treatments isn't going to get the bees in shape before winter, right? So if the option is hope and pray vs. hope and pray and kill the mites quickly... I think I'd edge towards the latter. 

That's a peak into my mind on the matter after fiddling with less than effective enough treatments all summer only to find that I needed something heavier duty once August hit.

The disclaimer being that I'm new at this and perhaps got lucky with my MAQS applications.

Re: OAV, it's tough to quantify the overall affect. Is it better to open and disrupt a colony every 5-7 days three or four times, making them clean out acid crystals each time? Or is it better to plop some MAQS strips in? A lot of that depends on the beekeeper, time of year, etc. But I feel OAV is pretty disruptive to the colony although not destructive. MAQS seemed similarly disruptive (in aggregate) and only a very minor amount more destructive in my small experience.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> how easy do you think it would be to hire an experienced temporary beekeeper?


You know no other beekeeper such as yourself that has the same size apiary that wouldn't need the favor reciprocated? No one is more OCD about how things are done then myself but I learned the hard way that "good enough" is really what you want to find if you want your family to come first and not your occupation.

A skill that is very hard to master is developing a way of keeping the ship afloat when you are not there to steer it. If you do master it your life will become a cake walk.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> From reading your many posts it's abudantly clear you are not a serious beekeeper in any sense of the term.
> A hot air blower, yes.


Bryan is a serious bee talker, but he does have the right to claim "Cardinal rules". Unfortunately Dan was quoting a "papal rule" and just mislabeled it.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You know no other beekeeper such as yourself that has the same size apiary that wouldn't need the favor reciprocated?


The few I know who're similar in size are equally busy. 7 days a week during the summer. None would be foolish enough to drop their own work to take on mine. Heck....if they did, then they'd be in the same boat as I am now.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

thehackleguy said:


> :lpf: (Posted at the same time as mcon672!)
> 
> beemandan,
> 
> Is it to late to treat your hives and be ok??? I just started treating mine last week, second treatments were yesterday and this afternoon. :s


I always do a follow-up treatment on Thanksgiving when there is not much brood, but the summer treatment should have been done. Anyway. better late than never.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I broke the rule on a few hives... lost one already, just found it getting robbed out, another was in full collapse, stuck in some apivar, hopefully they can bounce back, I still have a couple to check on and hit with OAV. I was on the ball with most of the hives this year but a few fell through the cracks.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks for sharing, Dan. I have to take the same lesson to a larger level - I have to buy my own ranch. Keeping bees on other people's property leaves too many people with a say so on what happens when. The bees just don't see it that way, let alone the fine colonies of mites I've been raising...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

dsegrest said:


> but he does have the right to claim "Cardinal rules".


I really was trying to be humorous.

However Dan, I am serious about having a plan that you could be away from beekeeping by as much as a month. It is not uncommon for someone working 7 days a week to have an accident, a heart attack or some kind of surgery that would lay you up for a month. If you have no game plan on how to handle that everything you have worked for so far could go by the wayside. It is very risky to have one person be the know all, and do all.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

kilocharlie said:


> Keeping bees on other people's property leaves too many people with a say so on what happens when.


It must be different in CA. I have a dozen beeyards and not a single property owner cares when I come or go or what I'm doing. Most are on remote spots on folks property so they rarely see me. One or two are near fields where they grow vegetables....and a couple say they've gotten stung a time or two....but were quick to point out that they were happy to have the hives regardless. If they started telling me how to keep my bees....I guess I'd find somewhere else to put 'em.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> It is very risky to have one person be the know all, and do all.


I understand that Brian. My business isn't big enough to support a second person. I'm getting old enough that I don't have ambitions for it to ever get that big. If I find myself incapacitated for an extended period....so be it. People ask sometimes 'what will you do when you aren't able to keep bees any longer?'. My reply...if I'm able, I'll do something else. I don't have a close out plan....except to keep on plugging along 'til I stop.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> .except to keep on plugging along 'til I stop.


I seriously wish you would come up with another plan. I have seen it go so wrong for those (and there are many) who have adopted your plan.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am sorry, I have to post again ... You know how to support yourself now. All you have to do is expand your business by 25% and you can hire another person. Another person could net you a 50% increase in income depending on how well the person is and how good you are at training them. Doing exactly what you are doing now. The only stipulation is you have to be able to burn them if they cannot produce what you are looking for (within reason here). It is hard to let people go but if they cannot do what you need you are doing them a favor by let them go.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

did ya get into any more hives today dan? are some yards fairing better than others?


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## KeyLargoBees (Jun 19, 2015)

I read these forums 10% for advice and 90% to see ya'll beat up on Ace


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Dan I believe you will be fine. I am sure you will make up for lost time. How many hives do you have now? I know it is serious business for you but you got to stop and breathe sometimes and yes sometimes early. Good luck


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I am sorry, I have to post again ... You know how to support yourself now.


I can tell that you are genuinely concerned about this Brian and I appreciate it. For much of my traditional working life I was the boss. I hired and fired. I was good at both. Both were responsibilities that I took seriously. Often the hr part of my work kept me awake at night. When I left that career I promised myself that from that day forward I would work alone. I'm not going to hire anyone other than a day to day high school kid to help with the heavy lifting. Another of my cardinal rules.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> did ya get into any more hives today dan? are some yards fairing better than others?


I did! Many still look very good. Less pms than the first hives but still more dwv than I'm accustomed to seeing. I'm also seeing more deadouts than I normally see at the end of the season. But that isn't too troubling as I suspect these would've been my usual culls if I'd gotten to them in August. I've gotten the first round on about half of my hives....if the weather would hold out, I might get the rest done this week. As it looks like rain....some will likely get done next week.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Best of luck to ya Dan. I hear what you're saying, believe me I do. It's something I struggle with a lot, particularly at this time of year. FYI about 1/4th of our bees have yet to see a fall treatment and about 250 hives haven't had any honey pulled yet. Yikes, as I often say, the calendar doesn't care. Time to get to work, a long ways to go and a short time to get there.....


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Bkwoodsbees said:


> Dan I believe you will be fine. I am sure you will make up for lost time.


Thanks. I am also sure all will be fine. My main reason for the first post is to point out how significant a little procrastination can be in the bee world. And if you hope to become a serious beekeeper how diligent you must remain or it'll be costly.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> I can tell that you are genuinely concerned about this Brian and I appreciate it.


I am concerned Dan and I know exactly what you mean about only depending on yourself and having ease of mind. The trouble is there can be huge pitfalls.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> FYI about 1/4th of our bees have yet to see a fall treatment and about 250 hives haven't had any honey pulled yet.


I just got the last of my honey pulled a couple of weeks ago. By the calendar....a month late. On a significantly smaller scale than yours but the idea is all the same. Good luck.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

"the bees come first. "

Oh boy, the bees claim another victim. I have been enslaved for almost 20 years now. Just starting to learn how to push back to gain back that control


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

beemandan said:


> And if you hope to become a serious beekeeper how diligent you must remain or it'll be costly.


Thank goodness I'm not serious about anything! 

All joking aside however, I do appreciate the insight all of you share on the forum about your trials and tribulations of running a big operation. Working all of the hours with the bees then coming here to share the info that helps all of us hobbyist is nothing short of amazing to me. I grew up on a farm and I know at the end of the day I wasn't thinking "What did I encounter today that might help someone else?" All I was thinking about was dinner and going to bed! Thank you :applause:


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

What is pms and dwv that has been talked about in this thread? Thanks


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Parasitic Mite Syndrome (PMS): https://beeinformed.org/2013/10/parasitic-mite-syndrome-pms/

Deformed wing virus (DWV): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deformed_wing_virus


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Parasitic Mite Syndrome (PMS): https://beeinformed.org/2013/10/parasitic-mite-syndrome-pms/


OH! I thought he meant "PMS"!  :lookout:


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Dan I regret the situation you are going through. Your story raises questions that go beyond the varroa and bees, in my opinion.

But restricting myself to bees and varroa I will present some ideas that have guided me as guidelines to combat varroa . These ideas are not specifically for Dan that I am sure have long know them , and have as their sole purpose being improved by BS community if they have any merit.

I will present my assumptions, records and accounts that have helped me define the timings of the two annual treatments that I have done for six years now.

- A colony with 40,000 bees have about 5000 various (varroas number tolerated by the colony before we start to see bees with deformed wings and smaller abdomens);
- Apply a treatment with an announced efficiency of around 99%;
- 50 varroas survive after treatment;
- Life cycle of varroa 12 days since varroa mother enters the operculum until it becomes out with the seed and about five days to re-enter again in the lid to reproduce; we have a full 17 days to complete the cycle;
- An average number of varroa is multiplied by 2 for each 17 day cycle;
- Starting with our treated hive with only 50 varroa we have the following progression: 50-100-200-400-800-1600-3200-6400 varroas after 8 cycles of 17 days (see more than 17 days was up the number of varroa upwards of 12,000). We realize better because in 2 to 3 weeks a strong colony can collapse with PMS;
- Between 5000 and 6000 varroa per colony lies the economic threshold above which the colony is losing productive potential due to varroa, in danger of collapse in a few weeks;
- 8 cycles of 17 days gives approximately 4 months.

In conclusion as I have as a strategy to treat only twice a year (two months with treatment and another 4 months interval between treatments) I must deal with treatments that ensure the upper efficiencies to 95% IMO (a little less than 99% I believe it is effective because there are various infertile varroas, there are developments that lower varroa load, there are swarming, there laying cuts, there are varroa to naturally die, ...).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Another approach is to have someone else do what needed to be done while you were gone.


More easily said than done. I hardly even want anyone else in my bee hives when I am there, let alone when I am not. It's hard to find someone who will care for your bees as well as you will. That's why I don't haul anyone else's bees south for the Winter and promise to bring them all back alive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Actually, if you think about it, how easy do you think it would be to hire an experienced temporary beekeeper? One that you could drop in the field at a moment's notice and trust to do the same job you would. Such a thing, if it could even be found, would be prohibitively expensive.
> I knew the risks when I took the trips. I was unreasonably hopeful that I could make up the time. I don't know of any experienced, good quality beekeepers who would be willing to work for me for three weeks in midsummer...for any price I could pay.
> Nope...my choice as I saw and still see it is to either not go on the trips or to go and pay the piper. The piper is now taking his/her due.


Like they wouldn't already be busy doing their own beework. Right?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I am sorry, I have to post again ... You know how to support yourself now. All you have to do is expand your business by 25% and you can hire another person. Another person could net you a 50% increase in income depending on how well the person is and how good you are at training them. Doing exactly what you are doing now. The only stipulation is you have to be able to burn them if they cannot produce what you are looking for (within reason here). It is hard to let people go but if they cannot do what you need you are doing them a favor by let them go.


I don't think I have seen this work out that way in beekeeping. Too many variables.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> It's hard to find someone who will care for your bees as well as you will.


It is hard to find someone who will care for your "beesness", your children, your house, your land... anything you own...

If you have limited your operation to a one man show you can't be looking for someone to be your equal because the operation is not big enough to support another "you". I guess what doesn't make sense to me is if you believe your bees desperately need your care and only your care how in the world could they survive with no care at all. Wouldn't it be better to have some care where you make an arrangement with someone as to what that care is?

Mark I know you have a friend up here that helps you out with your harvest. I am absolutely certain you have more friends down south that might help you out. You wouldn't trust one of them to do something while you were gone even if they don't do it exactly as you would? A friend is someone who will help another person in need out regardless of what their personal work load is. You are not the type of guy that doesn't have friends.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Dan got behind on his work and his bees are suffering a bit as a result. He didn't start this thread looking for suggestions for a different business plan, he started it to point out how important timely treatments are if you expect to have strong hives going into the winter........and he is right. I see it every year. My best bees share two major components. #1 timely late summer mite treatments and #2. Good late summer/early fall forage or an equal amount of supplemental nutrition.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You are not the type of guy that doesn't have friends.


Help me while I am there is one thing. Help me tend to my bees without me present is another. It isn't a matter of trust. It's more like knowing how much other beekeepers work and how little time they have to spare. If I needed someone to do my bee work for me it would have to be an emergency situation. Like a friend whose son was dying from brain cancer and needed the honey taken off of his hives. That important and that simple. Or another guy who broke his leg who also needed honey taken off.

I will be going to my daughter's wedding next May and do have someone I trust to do what needs doing, who I will be paying for his time and trouble. And I will be getting as much done ahead of time so his time spent away from what other things he does won't be any greater than necessary. But most situations would have to be emergency type situations.

No one will tend to your bees the way you do. If they tend to them better than you, fine and good. Otherwise, you may well have been better off if no one helped at all.

As far as me having friends, that's another thread.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I will be going to my daughter's wedding next May and do have someone I trust to do what needs doing, who I will be paying for his time and trouble. And I will be getting as much done ahead of time so his time spent away from what other things he does won't be any greater than necessary.


:scratch: Isn't this the point I was trying to make?


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

I have a question. I realize that everyone suggests that you do multiple treatments so you get those in the hive and second time get those in the comb that emerged. But if you are in a nine-line bind for time, could you not do a single treatment, knock numbers down significantly, and then a few weeks/month or two later, do the normal round of treatments. 

Just thinking about treatment issues. Still they are holding their own so I am letting them fight through it.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

As I said earlier, I think Brian is genuinely concerned. I'm a semi bright fellow. I considered everything Brian has suggested and more before I decided how I would operate my business. Repeating those same ideas over and over again isn't going to make me change my mind.
Mark has a significantly bigger operation than I do. He evidently also has a friend with the knowledge and willingness to do a temporary stint while he is away next May. As I said before, anybody I know who would meet the knowledge critera....is as busy as I am. If I need a second set of experienced hands for a day or two...with the assurance of the favor returned when needed...no problem. But to ask someone to drop what they are doing in their beeyards in June to cover mine for three weeks...nope.
If I were running a self service storage business and could hire a teenager for minimum wage, teach him everything he needed to know in an hour and leave him at the desk with his nose in a cell phone....and my business and customers never miss me....why I'd do it in a second. It would never fly here.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

marshmasterpat said:


> I realize that everyone suggests that you do multiple treatments so you get those in the hive and second time get those in the comb that emerged.


In my experience doing half a treatment isn't worth the time and expense. And being a month later than usual I am seeing significantly more mite stress than I ever do. There's a lot of talk about the exponential growth of mites and how those end of season mite populations suddenly go over the top.....and that's what I'm seeing. As I go through the hives looking for the best spot to place the Apiguard I sometime expose developing brood between the boxes. In some hives I actually shudder when I see the number of pupae that have mites. I even saw one this week with three mites on it. I've seen many with two. Lots of DWV. Nope...full treatments here. Late but full.
The best suggestion, I think, was that I should be using the single treatment MAQS. If I'm being honest, it never crossed my mind back in June when I ordered the Apiguard. I'd never used MAQS before, so it simply wasn't on my radar. I'm through the first round of Apiguard on about 80% of my hives now. Weather permitting...I should get the next 20% done early next week and be totally finished in another two weeks. I'm going to stay the course. 
And next time....I'll take my vacation in January.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> If I were running a self service storage business and could hire a teenager for minimum wage, teach him everything he needed to know in an hour and leave him at the desk with his nose in a cell phone....and my business and customers never miss me....why I'd do it in a second. It would never fly here.


Dan, you have no clue what it takes to run a self storage business. My wife does that. I would shoot 75% of the customers and send them down the sauquoit creek if I was running the place. Anyone that runs a business knows how difficult it is to find good help. When the business is a one man / woman show the difficulty is exponential.

I am not trying to change your mind. I detected a regret that you spent a long deserved vacation with your family. That is what is making me sad. If scheduling your vacation in January works then that is wonderful but you can't predict a heart attack or any other medical problem.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Anyone that runs a business knows how difficult it is to find good help. When the business is a one man / woman show the difficulty is exponential.


Isn't that the point I tried to make? :scratch:

I surely didn't regret the vacation, only the beekeeping result. As I said in an earlier post...in the future I'll vacation in January.


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## maudbid (Jul 21, 2014)

"Anyone that runs a business knows how difficult it is to find good help. When the business is a one man / woman show the difficulty is exponential."

I'm sorry, but that right there is funny the way I read it.

"If I fired myself, I wouldn't be able to afford to pay me unemployment."


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> in the future I'll vacation in January.


LOL We pick a month too but then the daughter moves her business to FL from NY and then moves again 3 months later. Another 6 months and she has a destination wedding in the Keys. Another couple of months go by and my brother has a destination wedding in Lake George. We plan on going to Hawaii with them in march next year. It is not unheard of to get 2 ft snow storms here in march. Who's going to plow? The reason why I plow this place is because my wife hates the way everyone else has done it for over 20 years. She is not going to be a happy camper if it snows while we are gone. It is a great idea to pick a time when you are not busy to go on vacation if you have that luxury.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

maudbid said:


> "If I fired myself, I wouldn't be able to afford to pay me unemployment."


:scratch: Unemployment is a make believe insurance policy because it is run by the government. If you are self employed you can't file a claim. An employer does not pay you unemployment. They pay a premium to the government based on their record of hiring and firings. Supposedly the money is already there in the governments sess pool of monies when you make a claim.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I just finished putting the second round of Apiguard on all of my hives...except one yard. That yard got the first round then when I went back to do the second the property owner was harvesting trees all around the hives. Last thing I wanted to do was stir 'em up even more. Heavy machinery with exposed operators. So that yard will only get one round this year.
As I went in after fourteen days for the second treatments I was surprised at the difference already. I didn't see a single instance of dwv. Two weeks before many hives had numerous. Solid brood patterns in almost all. A couple still spotty but nowhere near what they were only two weeks before. Night and day.
While I was making the rounds...I had several hives starve out. I had marked them as needing feed but was going full bore treating. I had to choose. Feed 'em or treat. I chose to stay the course. I figured that there is still a few weeks to feed while the treating window was closing now.
I've got feeders and syrup ready to go tomorrow. So...for the next few weeks....that's what I'll be doing.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Thanks for the update, hope most pull through for you, Dan. Will be interested to know how the one round of Apiguard does for you over winter. Our state apiarist seemed pretty high on it. Because of the long treatment window where feeding is supposed to be avoided, I decided to go with MAQS. We don't have too long between fall flow ending and winter. 

Are you running singles overwinter? Or some other configuration?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i'm glad to hear your colonies are looking better dan. it must have been a big relief to see those solid brood patterns.

i was surprised to hear that some had starved out at this time of year. might they have been robbed out while weakened with varroasis? 

over here they have been gaining weight on the fall flow but that is winding down now.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jwcarlson said:


> Because of the long treatment window where feeding is supposed to be avoided,


That is surely one of the downsides to Apiguard. The bees get into a robbing mode once it is applied. When you go in for the second round they are already preconditioned and ya got to move fast.
I have all sorts of configurations. Most of my established hives are double deeps. Some double deep with a super. Some only a single deep and a super. I make the decision based on the population during honey harvest. Our summers are hard core dearths. Nor do we have anything that would qualify as a fall 'flow'.
Our spring flow this year was short and not very good. Most of the new hives are low. Some of the established hives swarmed and by the time they recovered had missed the flow. This year I'll feed about forty or fifty hives.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> i'm glad to hear your colonies are looking better dan. it must have been a big relief to see those solid brood patterns.


Thanks....it was a huge relief!



squarepeg said:


> i was surprised to hear that some had starved out at this time of year. might they have been robbed out while weakened with varroasis?
> 
> over here they have been gaining weight on the fall flow but that is winding down now.


I don't think they had gotten terribly weak. All that failed...I had marked as needing feed two weeks ago. Some I knew were on the brink. We simply don't get a fall flow. I've smelled goldenrod honey curing once in fifteen years.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

So are those queens still laying Dan or did the Apiguard shut down most of the egg laying?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> So are those queens still laying Dan or did the Apiguard shut down most of the egg laying?


Apiguard shuts a lot of them down. After a couple of weeks they're beginning to crank back up. I've wondered if this might be part of how it works.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

On the other hand there are those that seem unaffected. And even those that do, don't seem to shut down for very long. I saw a lot of newly capped brood and a lot of larvae. Some hives have multiple frames filled...others with a few partials. It is hard to know how much of it is from the Apiguard and how much is from the end of season shutdown.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

beemandan said:


> Apiguard shuts a lot of them down. After a couple of weeks they're beginning to crank back up. I've wondered if this might be part of how it works.


I think it's a side effect for sure particularly if it's been pretty hot. It's scared me a few times but actual queen loss with thymol seems to be pretty low.


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## Dutch-az (Aug 12, 2015)

Acebird said:


> ... "good enough" is really what you want to find


Sorry I can't buy that. I grew up believing that "good enough" is NEVER good enough. If anything whether an avocation or a vocation is going to be succesful, you need to put your all into it.

-Dutch


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dutch-az, after a while you'll come to know that's just Brian being Acebird. Walk away.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> It's scared me a few times but actual queen loss with thymol seems to be pretty low.


The first time I used it, it scared me too....and I swore I wouldn't use it again but later....when they all (pretty much all anyway) came back with a vengeance, I had a change of heart.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> I've wondered if this might be part of how it works.


There you go JW a chemical brood break. You can add that to the list.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beemandan said:


> The first time I used it, it scared me too....and I swore I wouldn't use it again but later....when they all (pretty much all anyway) came back with a vengeance, I had a change of heart.


MAQS shut down (most) of my queens too, for a few days at least. A couple seemed to just slow down a little bit, though. 



Acebird said:


> You can add that to the list.


What list? The list of things you comment about without any firsthand knowledge?

That list is full and already 12,254 items long (and counting).


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

> quality beekeepers who would be willing to work for me for three weeks in midsummer...for any price I could pay


I'm not all that experienced as it's only my second year and feel bad that you think your losses are going to big or damaging.
So first I need to ask what is DWV and PMS, I think it has something to do with varroa mites, not like my girlfriends PMS.
Second, if it's in the middle of the Summer isn't that abnormal if you treat for them in the Spring and or Fall?
Forgive my stupid questions, but this discussion seems interesting if I ever want to have bees and a Summer vacation.

I did treat for mites with MAQS a few weeks ago and couldn't believe the dead mites in the bottoms of the boxes so I was glad I did that. There were a few dead bees, but I thought that could also be due to lowering numbers for Winter.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> So first I need to ask what is DWV and PMS, I think it has something to do with varroa mites ...

Parasitic Mite Syndrome (PMS): https://beeinformed.org/2013/10/parasitic-mite-syndrome-pms/
Deformed wing virus (DWV): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deformed_wing_virus

PMS and DWV can be / typically are spread by varroa, but _can _exist even without varroa AFAIK.


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

Thanks! Good info. So I take it that the only treatment is to keep mite levels low and let the bees take care of the rest.


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