# Greetings from the Black Hills, SD



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hi, and welcome from another country, another continent, and maybe even 'another world' ....

Firstly, it's unlikely that anything you grow yourself will have any impact upon the bees you keep - they forage for several miles in all directions, which adds up to several thousands of acres - and many people (but not all) find that their bees tend to ignore plants which are close to home. Mine do. 
So - if would be handy for you to know 'what's out there' at various times of the season, but that's not essential if you're only keeping a few beehives. But - should you ever 'get the bug' and start keeping a lot of hives, then supplementary feeding may become necessary.

Whoever the 'we' is in "I brought home three Scottish Highland heifers and *we* built a shed/barn for them." is handy at woodwork, then building your own hives will save you a lot of money - assuming of course that you can source suitable timber (lumber).

I'm always a little fazed by statements such as "I want to raise mite-resistant Russian bees in an alternative-type hive." by someone who has never kept bees before, and would urge you to concentrate on simply keeping a couple of colonies of local bees alive for a year or two - even if you need to treat for mites - regardless of what kind of bee you favour - for that in itself will be a challenge, especially with the amount of livestock you've already accumulated. Ambitions can always follow on from there.

It would be useful, I think, for you to describe the type of weather conditions you experience up there in the Black Hills, especially during Winter. I did once live on the side of a mountain, but it was only at 2000ft, and although we seldom saw much in the way of snow it was hellishly exposed - with a 180 degree panoramic view of the Atlantic - such that a Warre hive of any height wouldn't have survived very long up there (not that I kept bees at that time). But - if you should have a suitably sheltered spot, then the Warre Hive is simple and cheap to make.

Keep the questions coming, there are people on this forum much closer to you than I, and who will be better placed to advise accordingly.
'best
LJ (currently positioned at around 6" above Sea Level on England's eastern coast - with not a single hill within sight )


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

CindyinSD said:


> Hi Ya’ll!
> .......I want to raise mite-resistant Russian bees in an alternative-type hive. I’ll have to get them by mail as I can’t travel (I’m a caregiver for my mom.) Right now I’m leaning toward a Warrè but I’m open to ideas. I’ve read a bit, but I have pretty much everything to learn before spring. Looking forward to reading all y’all’s wisdom!


Been in the Black Hills few times.
Caster State Park is probably the most favorite destination (the bison scratched on our van as if on a bolder few times; those safaris are a must to do, expecialy for the kids).
The rest follows (the dead presidents and all).
One of the favorite vacation destinations (since we can just drive there - fam of 5, in a minivan).

Look into Layens' style beekeeping (especially, with the Russian bees - these can get defensive at times - the deep horizontal equipment counters that well).
That would be your "alternative-type" hive.
I do these myself being in WI; these hives are well suited for cold climate.
The only negative - can get heavy.
BUT if the location is static and no need to move them - then "set it and forget it" and enjoy beekeeping.
But, yes, like LJ said - check around for the local bees first and try those (some Carni-based bees are a good start if zero experience).
Then you do as you feel.

Read - http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/hive-frame-swarm-trap.shtml
Then read BS; many details have been discussed here:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?254-Top-Bar-amp-Horizontal-Hive-Forum


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## CindyinSD (Sep 26, 2019)

Thanks for the advice and the welcome, Little John! The “we” is me and my DH. The carpenter is actually me—DH doesn’t care for that kind of thing but he’s willing to help me when he can. He’s had some health issues, so if it can be done by one, that’s usually my job.  He operates the heavy equipment. I can but I don’t care for it. 

I’ve been reading Philip Chandler’s books—and Les Crowder. The top-bar hives and Russian bees seemed easier than doing things the more conventional way, from what they have to say. Of course they’re passionate about their methods and I may not find them as good as they do. I’m sure I could build either the Warrè or the hTBH without much trouble. Aside from the draw of novelty, I’m all in on easier since I’ll definitely be doing this with minimal help. 

We live in a draw. Most of our wind comes down from the north, but the worst (and more rare) winds are southern. I’m contemplating right now where I would put a hive or two... probably against the south wall of the house or the shop. Probably the shop.

Unfortunately our big snow drifts end up against the south sides of the buildings—some trick of the wind. That would be okay at the house because the south ground level is protected by a deck above. It could be chilly in summer though, always being shaded. Besides, I’m thinking I may consider putting the bees inside the shop over winter. If I do that, I’ll definitely situate them to the south of the shop. The shop doesn’t get a lot of use in winter because we prefer not to heat it. I could put them in my smallest room there, and keep the temp at 40* Fahrenheit as I read that the Canadians do. I’m afraid even Russian bees might find our winters not to their liking. Some years are very mild, but lately the winters have been long, wet and cold. So yes, if the bees don’t have time to gather their winter stores, I am happy to feed them.

Thanks again, I really do appreciate your generosity in sharing your wisdom.


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## CindyinSD (Sep 26, 2019)

Hi, Greg

That’s so cool that you’ve been here before. My parents had a cabin in CSP. We kept it a long time, but the 99 year lease on the land was nearing its end so we sold it to the park concessionaire who (unlike us) could buy it and keep it. It’s close to Legion Lake. I suppose if you were ever looking for a rental near to the lake, you might end up there. We’re an hour and a half north of Custer, a few miles from Pactola Lake, on 12.5 acres surrounded by USFS. I am not fond of the USFS, but it’s nice to be out here even though they’ve so badly mismanaged the forests.

I would go to Wisconsin and get my coveted Russian bees from a lady I found on the internet but I can’t leave home for long and she doesn’t ship. My mom has advanced Alzheimer’s and my DH isn’t physically able to move her around her rooms by himself. That’s one reason I finally got animals. I’ve always wanted to but didn’t want to be tied down, so... bottom line, I finally got my animals! As many as the land will comfortably hold and I can reasonably take care of.  I need goats next, to eat the Canada thistles, but they need a lot of fencing in and I haven’t gotten to that yet.

I am a little concerned about shipping bees, though. The more I read about that, the more I think you guys might be right. I found a place in KY (Kelly Bees) that will ship packages of pure Russian bees (which they assure me are a very gentle strain) but I’m on the outside edge of their safe shipping range and I’m afraid the package would be delayed and hurt the bees. I’d feel bad about that. It doesn’t seem right... what do you think?

Thanks for your tip on the Layens! I’m going to look them up right away!

Blessings, Cindy


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

CindyinSD said:


> Hi, Greg
> .......I’m on the outside edge of their safe shipping range and I’m afraid the package would be delayed and hurt the bees. I’d feel bad about that. It doesn’t seem right... what do you think?
> 
> Thanks for your tip on the Layens! I’m going to look them up right away!
> ...


I am not experienced in the bee package shipping OR package bee buying.
Never bought or sold packages.
I just caught my own bees and got few shipped queens. 
That's my experience.

Yes, look up those Layens' webpages; there are building plans and maybe you can just make a couple of hives.
But be warned, a couple of hives is never enough.
You immediately should plan for at least a couple more (even if temp boxes from trash; you will need them).
Good luck.


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## CindyinSD (Sep 26, 2019)

I love them! They’re stable and solid and they look like a whimsical village on the hillside. I have a nice wooded slope that doesn’t drift up too much. This looks like just what I want. Plus it’ll be so much fun decorating them! I think I’m going to go ahead and order the book. It’s pricey but the reviews are good.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Welcome to Bee Source. Good advice above. Best of luck with your bees.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

CindyinSD said:


> I love them! They’re stable and solid and they look like a whimsical village on the hillside. I have a nice wooded slope that doesn’t drift up too much. This looks like just what I want. Plus it’ll be so much fun decorating them! I think I’m going to go ahead and order the book. It’s pricey but the reviews are good.


I did not even bother with the book.
All the ideas needed are on the web page.
But a good paper book is always a pleasure to own and read, and requires no batteries (got those too!).

Here are more links for you (about the same, really):
https://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/diy-better-bee-hive-zm0z18aszsphe
https://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/build-bee-hive-reclaimed-material-zm0z18aszsphe

One important detail - do consider your frame compatibility to the existing Langstroth frames up front.
I would avoid using the Leo S. frame dimensions (thus creating the artificial issue for yourself later - the built-in incompatibility with Langstroth hives and a big headache going forward).
This is the only one negative I can point out in his designs (but a very major one).
Instead I would make this frame prototype (two Langstroth medium frames attached) and use it as the base dimension for your own frames, hives, and all the related wares made later (you will be only glad):








I have discussed the same in details here:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?341887-Horizontal-deep-hives


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## CindyinSD (Sep 26, 2019)

Thanks, Greg! It looks like the hive is basically just a big box with thick walls. I’m thinking the R value might be better (and the hive lighter) if I framed the walls with 2x2 studs, insulated with rigid foam insulation and sheathed with 1/4” plywood. (Which takes little more than a chop saw and skill saw.) Plus I wouldn’t have to mess with those tongue and groove joints. I don’t have a router table. I could manage with the table saw, or biscuit join, or peg, but at present I have literally nowhere to set up my tools and the weather is going, well north, pretty quickly. We had no spring and now maybe no fall either. &#55357;&#56853; on the plus side, my greenhouse kit arrived this morning. &#55357;&#56898; When we get that set up, it may be a good place to work temporarily.

If I were to frame, I might be tempted to use green treated because of the lumber available here, the green 2x2s are so nice, straight, strong. We don’t have a lot of lumberyard options. I worry though... they’d be completely covered, but maybe for a sensitive animal like a bee that would still be a bad idea...

Your suggestions re using the Langstroth dimensions make a lot of sense. I can see that being a big advantage. Only would that make the hive smaller and potentially less thermally efficient?

Got things I have to do, but I’m eager to check out your links ASAP. The jpg didn’t get posted somehow. I’m sure I can find a plan for a Lang frame somewhere, though.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

CindyinSD said:


> Thanks, Greg! It looks like the hive is basically just a big box with thick walls. I’m thinking the R value might be better (and the hive lighter) if I framed the walls with 2x2 studs, insulated with rigid foam insulation and sheathed with 1/4” plywood. (Which takes little more than a chop saw and skill saw.) Plus I wouldn’t have to mess with those tongue and groove joints. I don’t have a router table. I could manage with the table saw, or biscuit join, or peg, but at present I have literally nowhere to set up my tools and the weather is going, well north, pretty quickly. We had no spring and now maybe no fall either. �� on the plus side, my greenhouse kit arrived this morning. �� When we get that set up, it may be a good place to work temporarily.
> 
> If I were to frame, I might be tempted to use green treated because of the lumber available here, the green 2x2s are so nice, straight, strong. We don’t have a lot of lumberyard options. I worry though... they’d be completely covered, but maybe for a sensitive animal like a bee that would still be a bad idea...
> 
> ...


Thick sandwich walls are a good idea.
I got one such hive - NOT much lighter if at all - BUT has the warmer walls for sure.
I have been using the sandwich designs in my mobile hybrid hives as well (those thin Lang box wall are not good - I sandwiched them).
For a static hive I say it is a good way (the green wood planks are a non-issue IMO - as long as you have them covered in).



> Your suggestions re using the Langstroth dimensions make a lot of sense. I can see that being a big advantage. Only would that make the hive smaller and potentially less thermally efficient?


NOT really.
Becoming the Lang compatible only makes the hive *deeper *by a couple of inches.
Not smaller; not less thermally efficient.

Look at his conversion project and ask yourself - why do this meaningless project?
What is the point of it and why all this hassle?
Sorry, this conversion makes no sense whatsoever to me.
Just be compatible up front and don't bother.
This project I mean:
http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/convert-langstroth-layens.shtml


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## CindyinSD (Sep 26, 2019)

I looked at all the plans he has up, but I didn’t study them all. Really nice of him to share so freely. I guess I didn’t understand this one, though, at the time. On examination it looks like the Lang frame is fitted into the adapter on its side. The deep Lang frame gets a 2x4 to make up the gap on one side. The narrower Lang frames are also put in sideways but two are hung side by side in the same adapter. 

They look like they’d be too wide to fit in right side up, and also too short to fill the space. I wonder if it would work to make the box wide enough to take a Lang frame right side up and just not worry that it doesn’t go all the way to the bottom? Or maybe add a length of 2x4 (or whatever is the right size) under the Lang frame to fill in the gap where it doesn’t go all the way to the bottom?


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## CindyinSD (Sep 26, 2019)

Okay, never mind. I just read the thread you linked—now I understand what you were talking about. (Or I think I do...) Two medium-sized Lang frames on edge, connected together and fixed to a top bar... right? Or am I still not getting it?


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## CindyinSD (Sep 26, 2019)

In the plans, the frames’ sidebars are shown as around 2” wide, then cut on each side to make them thinner. Is this important? ‘Cause it’s bound to add work/time. If it matters, fine, but If not...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

CindyinSD said:


> I looked at all the plans he has up, but I didn’t study them all. Really nice of him to share so freely. I guess I didn’t understand this one, though, at the time. On examination it looks like the Lang frame is fitted into the adapter on its side. The deep Lang frame gets a 2x4 to make up the gap on one side. The narrower Lang frames are also put in sideways but two are hung side by side in the same adapter.
> 
> They look like they’d be too wide to fit in right side up, and also too short to fill the space. I wonder if it would work to make the box wide enough to take a Lang frame right side up and just not worry that it doesn’t go all the way to the bottom? Or maybe add a length of 2x4 (or whatever is the right size) under the Lang frame to fill in the gap where it doesn’t go all the way to the bottom?


Just setup your hives for this size from the very start - " two are hung side by side in the same adapter."
And you are done.
Forget those silly adapters.
Cut the ears off.
Zip the frames together (just like on his pictures).
Screw in 15 inch long top bar (make them to sort of fit the width of the zipped together frames).
Done.
You will get something like this:






















Your hive will be a couple of inches deeper than his AND you will have complete compatibility to any Lang frames (important when buying nucs OR for free equipment reuse - my way).

If want and have time, you can build proper frames too, of the same size described above, like so:








The hive ideally should have some attic for more honey frames and/or insulation (you are in SD, not in southern MO):
Like so:








ALL you need to do - forget that conversion stuff.
Leo himself did not think of it in time - then started his non-sense with the conversions confusing people, instead honestly saying he made a mistake - no one needs that hassle.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

CindyinSD said:


> Okay, never mind. I just read the thread you linked—now I understand what you were talking about. (Or I think I do...) Two medium-sized Lang frames on edge, connected together and fixed to a top bar... right? Or am I still not getting it?


Yes.
Exactly.
You are getting it.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

CindyinSD said:


> In the plans, the frames’ sidebars are shown as around 2” wide, then cut on each side to make them thinner. Is this important? ‘Cause it’s bound to add work/time. If it matters, fine, but If not...


Not "around 2” wide" but 1 3/8 inch exactly (due to the Lang frame standards).
You know, just use as-is.
I spent too much time shaving them to 1 1/4 inch.
In the end just busy work and not a show-stopper.
But if you are a "perfectionista" - I'd say do shave to 1 1/4 (just a more natural approach, but debatable).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

CindyinSD said:


> ... take a Lang frame right side up and just not worry that it doesn’t go all the way to the bottom?...


Btw, you can do this, but..
You then just create a typical long Lang hive (not much "alternative" left in it, in my view).
Also, a long shallow hive will be less optimal for climate in SD.
At that rate just do vertical Langs then.

If to go an "alternative" at your location, I say go deep and long hive; not shallow and long.
I am plenty happy with my "longs".






















For the record, I consider constructing few modified Warre-format hives too (as another version of an ergonomic hive; compatible to my long hives).
Not done yet to share much.


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## CindyinSD (Sep 26, 2019)

Thanks, Greg! Very helpful. You make so much sense and leave me thinking, “Oh yeah... why didn’t I see that...?” Unfortunately I’m not able to view your photos for some reason I can’t figure out. :s I think I understand what you’re saying, though. 

I found this link: https://borrowedvesselsbeeworks.com/beehive/ 

The hive in the link seems small (as in it’s shorter than I wanted on the horizontal length) but almost what I had in mind otherwise. I was just going to make a box within a box with rigid insulation sandwiched between the two boxes. Since I want to permanently install the hives on end-posts (set in the ground) and so don’t care so much about weight, I was thinking of using 3/4” exterior plywood and edge-fastening the boxes to avoid use of framing members that would transmit heat. (But maybe that won’t make a lot of difference?)

I would insulate the lid similarly to the walls. And I’d like to add a peaked roof similar to Dr Leo’s plans. Along with all the advantages of a slippery slope to shed precipitation and a significant overhang, I think they look nice and I have left-over metal roofing anyway. Maybe it would be a good place to add ventilation outlets? 

In the hive on the link I gave, the guy lines his entrance holes with thin-wall pvc. (It seems like maybe they’re a little big?) I had been wondering whether it would be necessary to cover the insulation. It seems like a good idea, but maybe not needed? I saw your posts where you moved your wintering bees to the center of the box and draped the tops and end/backer boards with burlap. If they don’t mess with the burlap maybe the foam insulation isn’t gonna be a problem either. I don’t suppose it would be necessary to worry about them eating it or picking it apart as birds might do...

Does this sound reasonable or am I overthinking?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> .....
> I am plenty happy with my "longs".
> View attachment 51789
> 
> ...


Trying to re-post the pics.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

CindyinSD said:


> Thanks, Greg! Very helpful. You make so much sense and leave me thinking, “Oh yeah... why didn’t I see that...?” Unfortunately I’m not able to view your photos for some reason I can’t figure out. :s I think I understand what you’re saying, though.
> 
> I found this link: https://borrowedvesselsbeeworks.com/beehive/
> 
> ...


Nice link; I did not see this yet.

IF you are completely static - just do 20-frame rigs; even 24-25 frames.
IF mobility is a non-issue - go big and don't worry; the size is an advantage in any other way (but mobility).
Provision a way to be able to run two independent colonies in the same hive then - two entrances and a bee-proof division board.

If space was available to me - I'd do a bunch of 24-frame rigs with the lids swinging up and call it a day.
These are so easy to work in most any function, you'd never want anything else.
This is really a great design for a busy homesteader where you have little time for the bees - these hives are pretty much autonomous.

I just do my ventilation the same way Leo does. It works.

Sandwich of XPS between exterior-grade and interior-grade plywood should be good (I have one hive like this but stupidly used an interior-grade plywood outside - avoid this stupidity - even paint did not help).

The PVC-lined entrances is a good idea; I am considering this in future too (e.g. to protect the insulation from the bees).
Just now occurred to me - I used a metal mesh to the same effect (wish the PVC occurred to me - I'd use that).
All my entrances are - 1/2 inch round holes (I just have several of them).

FYI - don't exposed any foam to be bees (protect/cover it somehow) - they will almost certainly chew on it (I have issues of this kind).
Burlap they also chew on, but to a lesser degree; I read they don't really like the chemistry of the foam and are trying to get rid of it.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Welcome to the forum, you and Rocky Racoon.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Cloverdale said:


> Welcome to the forum, you and Rocky Racoon.


I get it. 

Alex


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I had to look it up. Good one.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Beatles White Album.


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## CindyinSD (Sep 26, 2019)

:lpf: Thanks, Cloverdale! Rocky and me, we’re tight. 


I’m glad to hear you say that, Greg, and I’m grateful for your advice.  I really like the idea of the larger, stationary hives and having the option to have a couple of colonies room together for the winter and share the warmth. I was thinking about building three since it seems that it works better to have several—from what I’ve read here and elsewhere. Maybe an even number would be preferable, though?

I was wondering about extracting honey and whether it might be worthwhile to make the frames in two pieces on purpose, each approximating the size of a Lang frame that would fit a common-sized extractor? I think I might be prepared to buy a standard size extractor one day, but the ones on Dr. Leo’s site sized for his version of Layens frames are more than I’m willing to pay. How much advantage is it for the bees to be able to give them back their combs? How much of a hassle is it to crush and strain?

Would a “snorkel” entrance be a good idea, do you think? I read about them somewhere—in a book, I think, but I don’t know whether that’s a term in general use. It’s like a shallow wooden box placed over the entry hole(s), closed in on all sides but the bottom. The bees enter through the bottom then fly up to get to their door. It’s supposed to confuse wasps. Not sure that would work (though one can hope) but it might help stop drafts.

I’ll stop now... I don’t want to overdo the questions.  I really do appreciate your help!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

CindyinSD said:


> :lpf: Thanks, Cloverdale! Rocky and me, we’re tight.
> 
> 
> I’m glad to hear you say that, Greg, and I’m grateful for your advice.  I really like the idea of the larger, stationary hives and having the option to have a couple of colonies room together for the winter and share the warmth. I was thinking about building three since it seems that it works better to have several—from what I’ve read here and elsewhere. Maybe an even number would be preferable, though?
> ...


The "snorkel" - I suggest you don't enter into the over-engineering trap.
Just do 2-3 hives the most simple way; run them 2-3 years; observe and THEN adjust what you must.

Frame extraction - here how people walk into the Leo's trap too.
I have done some of that myself and quickly ditched some of the "advice" as un-useable at my place.
For sure, I immediately ditched the custom frame size - why create million of headaches to yourself when this frame size is a silly obvious alternative:








Be flexible and understand the context.
He is in toasty South where the occasional winter only lasts 1-2 weeks at a time - then they have warm days again (to be sure - MO, Ozarks is toasty South, compared to the Black Hills, SD).
Don't get into the some of his dogma.
Not applicable to you.

For example, I ditched his design of touching top bars as not only useless but actually harmful design for me (that took one winter to realize).
I must be able to feed the bees *from above* for ANY reason - building all bunch of frames with touching top bars made my life complicated.
So - I would ignore the idea of "not feeding" - you don't have to feed, but *be ready* to feed and make sure your design is setup for it.
And so - I would advocate for path-through top bars covered by soft inner cover (burlap, plastic, Reflectix, etc).
Here is the original Layens hive (directly from the Leo's translated book - exact design with pass-through frame and burlap cover):








The pass-through top bars AND the tall roof allow for a honey super to be included with your hive.
Like so:








The extraction - again, ditch that Layens' dogma (with that expensive extractor to buy - totally unnecessary).
Here is my "extractor" - $20 in parts and one-time DYI project (contingent on using standard Lang frames in the honey super OR directly put into my Layen's hives - stick them in/pull them out - it is NOT mandatory for the frames to hang).








C&S (Crash & Strain) is absolutely usable alternative and I used before and will continue in the future.
I use it for small batch (1-2 frame size) - custom honey - pull 1-2 frames from storage OR a dead hive and get some totally custom honey batch (for self-use only).
The best honey; you will never be able to buy this kind of stuff.
Just a small kitchen project:







Also harvest bee bread in a similar way.


So, really, be flexible.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> View attachment 51877
> 
> View attachment 51871
> 
> ...


Unsure what is up with the attachments in this thread


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## CindyinSD (Sep 26, 2019)

Yes, idk what the problem is... I’d love to see your images. If you’re comfortable with it and have time, it would be great if you could message them to me, or e-mail if that’s easier for you. I’m gonna see if I can post an image... this was our May 20th this “spring.” Like I said, epic...


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## CindyinSD (Sep 26, 2019)

Okay, so yes... I have been reading the Layens book. As you say, Layens’ design has the top bars separated by a space. I’m glad you explained that it’s more flexible to separate them. I didn’t understand the utility of doing it that way.

I suppose in summer, one could slide the frames flush together and use the cover slats for a bee privacy screen during inspection if it seemed like an advantage. Or if I wanted to stack on a super (as I read about in some other of your posts where you suggested honey would be more efficiently collected in frames above the brood nest), I could leave off the cover slats and do that instead. That may be an argument for not hinging the lid and instead making it stackable and incorporating fasteners to keep it registered in case of being bumped somehow. We don’t have bears, but there are elk, or a cow could possibly get out of the electric fencing. They love scratching on things.

I would absolutely expect to feed in a never-ending winter like the one we had this past season and would be frantic if I suddenly realized my hive design had left me no option to do that. I asked you in another forum, but do you think I ought to do two inches of foam or is one adequate? I’m leaning toward two.


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