# the "eco floor"



## bluegrass

Benefits? I can't think of any.

Drawbacks? It provides an area for mice, termites, wood-ants etc to live. The mice might introduce black plague to your honey... wood ants and termites will eat the hive. Water could collect there and cause mold to grow.


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## Michael Bush

I tried having a box for debris below the hive. If you screen it off, then the bees can't police it and SHB and wax moths get more populous. If you don't screen it off, they haul it out for trash and fill the space with comb. I couldn't see any real benefit to it and some things were worrisome if it was screened off, like SHB and wax moths gone wild...

Screened it was unnatural beause the bees couldn't police it. Not screened make a mess of comb on the bottom of the frames. I like the concept, I just don't see how to implement it well.


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## AugustC

I have seen quite a lot of discussion on the eco-floors use in the UK. Recently there has been quite a lot about including the pseudo-scorpions to aid in varroa control and obviously we have yet to have SHB to deal with. The material to be used needs to be organic material which is too large for the bees to remove, better success has been had with woodchips that have had time to season outside of the hive to allow volatile oils to dissipate, and general flora build up. Generally, we are waiting to see how the colonies wintered on the deep floors have performed compared to those overwintered in standard bottoms. But the "feeling" of the people using them seems to be that the colonies seem healthy and happy. I don't know whether or not this is more natural environment for the bees or not but some the arguments put forward with regard to temperature/humidity/moisture control certainly make logical sense with regard to buffering or more effectively resisting rapid changes.


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## ositolud

Thanks, AugustC.
As I said above, I could see this going really well or really, really bad. Then again, the point of experimentation is to determine which outcome will result. 
That makes sense about the larger wood chips, and there need to be aged. As Bluegrass stated above, it could potentially provide a breeding ground for bad things, but the idea, as I understand it, is that this particular environment also is perfect for the pest predators.
Is the bottom you are testing similar to what was made in the video or quite different? Is there somewhere updates on the experiment are being posted? 
Thanks in advance for any information you can give me.
Allen


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## Michael Bush

My interest started because of what I would find in the bottom of healthy colonies I would remove from trees. Usually a pile of detritus at the bottom, full of ants, beetles, mites, centipedes, pseudo scorpions, sow bugs, wax moth larvae, ****roaches etc.

I'm just not sure how to recreate it in a managed box without ending up with wild comb hanging from the bottoms of the frames in the bottom box...


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## bluegrass

ositolud said:


> this particular environment also is perfect for the pest predators.


I think this is a good time to talk the predator/prey relationship and relay the story of the Asian Longhorned Beetle. We hear about this invader all the time here in the northeast, we see the survey traps hanging in roadside trees all summer long. We hear how they are destroying our forests and states are cracking down of firewood sellers trying to stop the spread. But why is this bug so detrimental to our forests, but live in balance with the forests back were they come from? It is a predator/pray relationship. The beetle larva on their native turf is a main food source for woodpeckers. We have woodpeckers here, but they don't consider the Beetle Larva food because they didn't evolve together, so our woodpeckers don't eat the larva and keep the beetles in check.

When it come to natural predators of the Varroa mite it is a safe bet that we do not have any. I wouldn't assume that the predatory insects around the bottom of your hives are going to do anything with the dropped mites unless you physically observe them doing so or some research comes out that indicates they do.


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## Michael Bush

>When it come to natural predators of the Varroa mite it is a safe bet that we do not have any.

Actually, we do, and they would live in the detritus at the bottom of a hive...

A search on google will give you a bunch of videos where you can watch pseudo scorpions eat Varroa mites:
https://www.google.com/#q=scorpion+eating+varroa+mite&tbm=vid


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## squarepeg

Michael Bush said:


> >When it come to natural predators of the Varroa mite it is a safe bet that we do not have any.
> 
> Actually, we do, and they would live in the detritus at the bottom of a hive...
> 
> A search on google will give you a bunch of videos where you can watch pseudo scorpions eat Varroa mites:
> https://www.google.com/#q=scorpion+eating+varroa+mite&tbm=vid


as part of 'spring cleaning' i have been scraping my bottom boards clean with the hive tool. would it be better not to?


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## Michael Bush

And then there is Stratiolaelaps which is a mite that would also live in the detritus and also eats Varroa... not to mention fire ants eating Varroa...

>as part of 'spring cleaning' i have been scraping my bottom boards clean with the hive tool. would it be better not to? 

The jury is still out... I don't know. I clean mine figuring the bees will eventually and I'll save them the work while I'm there...


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## bluegrass

I will have to look into this more. It looks like some research has been done in New Zealand with a native species there that was promising. Briefly looking I see very little that mentions specific species or any native to North America...... Remember not all woodpeckers eat Asian long-horned beetle larva.

I don't have fire ants and don't want any, I don't care what they eat


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## Michael Bush

>I don't have fire ants 

Me neither.

>and don't want any,

Me neither.

> I don't care what they eat

Me neither.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Even Prince Charles has an eco-floor in his topbarhive:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...bee-hive-sale-1-250-price-tag-sting-tail.html


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## odfrank

>I'm just not sure how to recreate it in a managed box without ending up with wild comb hanging from the bottoms of the frames in the bottom box...

Have a matching 1/4" screen on the top of the eco floor or grid similar to a slatted rack.


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## Jon Wolff

I built two hives with eco floors and decided against them when I found dozens of American ****roaches living the "hive life" later. My bigger worry, though, was small hive beetles. They're persistent enough without giving them more places to hide.


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## Michael Bush

>Have a matching 1/4" screen on the top of the eco floor or grid similar to a slatted rack. 

It might work, unless they decide to build under the 1/4" hardware cloth, but that would probably be the best plan if you wanted to pursue it.


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## RiodeLobo

Thinking out loud.
how about using a router to cut pyrmaids into the bottom board? Similar to the pattern they use for sound proofing, or a waffle iron. The peaks may keep extra comb to a minimum and the valleys would be habitat.


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## GregB

Michael Bush said:


> My interest started because of what I would find in the bottom of healthy colonies I would remove from trees. Usually a pile of detritus at the bottom, full of ants, beetles, mites, centipedes, pseudo scorpions, sow bugs, wax moth larvae, ****roaches etc.
> 
> I'm just not sure how to recreate it in a managed box without ending up with wild comb hanging from the bottoms of the frames in the bottom box...


Since I am thinking to try this project this summer (time/kids permitting), pulled this up.

Really a non-issue: 


> how to recreate it ..... without ending up with wild comb hanging


Have to have frames tall enough and under-frame buffer large enough to give the natural spacing.

All the issues originate from running excessively shallow boxes with virtually no under-frame space (be it KTBH or Lang) where bees are really wanting to build down as they naturally would like to do (but artificially placed floors cut them off).
I am yet to see even a single case of bees building under my frames (~19" tall) with enough under-frame space (2-3").
Even with open, unrestricted frames, they naturally stop within 2-3 inches off the floor


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## trishbookworm

also just thinking out loud... my bees work hard to clean their floor and I will respect that, plus moving bars is easier with a uniform floor, having said that.....insulation and humidity buffer are good things.

I would think a slatted rack as the floor for the bees to draw comb to, and then the aged wood chips below, maybe in a drawer you can remove or hinges open, could do the trick.

I would suggest having something to measure the humidity, temps, in a hive with and without eco floor... could raise more questions than it answers, but would be interesting. For those who do Broodminder etc.

And as for the floor of a regular hive, with debris build up... because the hive debris organic materials are pretty different from wood chips, I would wager not good things would grow there. The kind of things that bees would prefer to propolize off. Just a thought, no documentation or anything. So again I am following the bee behavior for this suggestion - they prefer clean.


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## Oldtimer

There is a saying "bees know best".

I'm cautious of this saying because it is often used or mis used, to try to justify all kinds of crazy ideas.

However, a wild hive in a tree is typically very clean. Contrary to the idea that the wood is part rotten with cracks that harbor all kinds of other creatures, in an established hive the bees actually coat the wood with a wax / propolis mix, and from the bees perspective everything is clean and tidy. Junk at the hive bottom is also removed by the bees, the only exception being if the architecture of the cavity is such that junk accumulates well away from the cluster, too far for the bees to bother going down and retrieving.


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## GregB

I don't see it as a pile of trash, btw.
I rather see it as 3-4 inch (10cm) tall, detachable bottom box; 
totally breathable through (but not drafty); 
full of compacted wood shavings, stick, bark - tightly packed into the box (a sandwich);
fine mesh below - to keep the filler from falling through; 
1/2" inch mesh above to allow bees to get inside the box as they see fit;

The filler material should be dry and ventilated.
So it will be kind of a breathing, thick, warm floor, possibly full of fauna (or not).
I don't want it to be moldy and moist.

Similar to this:
https://beetreehives.com/products/bee-tree-hive-base


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## little_john

As an experiment, I kept 2 hives on solid floors over winter - one with a bottom entrance, one with top. On inspection, both hives - although the colonies survived - showed signs of having been very wet: frame lugs having turned black etc. The build-up of detritus on the solid bottom board had provided a breeding ground for wax moths. Regardless of the theory, I find that in practice, bees do *not* clear away debris from beehives.

So - back to Open Mesh Floors, where the rubbish can fall out onto the ground, as well as providing much needed ventilation.
LJ


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## Oldtimer

But you say that was over winter, plus issues such as water show the bees were likely in a cluster. To properly test your belief you should surely do it over a whole season to see what bees will do when they can?

Bees cleaning the bottom board is not a theory, it's something most of us observe regularly, and we will often see a build up of rubbish over winter, which bees will clean as best they can, once things warm up and enable them to do it. If they can, they will do it.


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## little_john

Oldtimer said:


> But you say that was over winter, plus issues such as water show the bees were likely in a cluster. To properly test your belief you should surely do it over a whole season to see what bees will do when they can?


That would mean having solid bottom boards on all year long. Not a chance.

In that post I was referring to just 2 hives I tested over winter. Over the years I've observed many other hives which have had partial OMF's (hence partial solid floors) within which there's *always *been a build-up of detritus on the solid floor area. Which is why 'bottom-board cleaning' has become such a necessary routine each any every season - and why I've gone to the trouble of designing a custom bottom-board assembly which facilitates bottom-board removal to make such cleaning as easy as possible (i.e. without shifting boxes).

FWIW, much to my surprise (and delight) when I inspected one of my experimental 'National-Warre' hives a few days ago - the hive was "as clean as a whistle" and required no attention at all - but, it *was* fitted with a slatted-rack over a (50% area) OMF - the OMF being directly below the slats. And no sign of any excessive moisture over winter.

I'm not making any claims ... only reporting what I have observed.
LJ


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## Oldtimer

little_john said:


> to my surprise (and delight) when I inspected one of my experimental 'National-Warre' hives a few days ago - the hive was "as clean as a whistle"


Why am i not surprised.


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## little_john

I may have an explanation ...

It's all to do with particle size. If the particles of detritus can be kept separated, then the bees may indeed be physically able to shift it - but - if detritus collects on a solid floor and then has water added to it (as can happen when the bees are clustered during winter under conditions of inadequate ventilation) then mould quickly develops and a fairly 'solid' mass is duly formed. The bees are then - for all intents and purposes - unable to shift this, or at best can only 'pick at it' - and so the level of detritus continues to build up.

When I later apply a scraper to this mass during routine maintenance, it comes away from the board in chunks, as a thick (circa 1/4" - 3/8") sheet (***) - there's no way bees could ever lift such a mass. Once this mass has been lifted clear of the board, only then does it tend to crumble into smaller pieces.

With Open Mesh Floors, the detritus falls through the mesh whilst it is still of a small particle size, and any water descending to the floor passes though it anyway - so the problem never gets to manifest itself.

Again, I'm only reporting what I observe and experience, and in this case hypothesise. 
LJ

(***) I have seen detritus as much as an inch thick (i.e. in contact with the bottom bars) when salvaging badly neglected hives ... which have been fitted with solid floors.


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## Oldtimer

I'll go with that theory John. If the rubbish gets waterlogged and goes into a solid lump, once the weather improves and bees are active enough to get to it, they may do what they do with anything nasty they can't move, which is cover it with a coat of propolis. At that point it will feel hard, even to our touch.


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## Michael Bush

Maybe we need the right fungus and the right mites (Pseudoscorpions etc.) living in the detritis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAw_Zzge49c&t=380s
All of this is interesting, but especially look at 12:23

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-32194-8
https://patents.google.com/patent/US9474776B2/en


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## GregB

Oldtimer said:


> Bees cleaning the bottom board is not a theory, it's something most of us observe regularly,.........


Disagreed.
Again, you guys keep bees in Lang boxes with next to none of the under-frame buffer.

However, once the under-frame buffer is *deep enough*, that space starts crossing into the "outside" zone - bees ignore it.

How do I know?
Because I do it in my horizontal hives (the deep enough space).

There is always "inside" and "outside" (part of the cavity is "outside" very often - in proportion to the currently occupied space).
Here is a documented case in old pear-tree used by bees (until the tree fell over) - you can the "outside" area below the nest, depicted very well.
Basically - a dumpster full of flora and fauna. No one ever is going to clean that "bottom board".


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## BernhardHeuvel

GregV said:


> Disagreed.
> Again, you guys keep bees in Lang boxes with next to none of the under-frame buffer.


Errrm, Greg...this is plain wrong what you theorize...

How do I know? I keep bees in all sorts of hives. Including many fixed comb hives with very deep floors...and yes: bees keep the floor tidy, if you let them! 

But continue to dump compost into your hives, if it doesn't help the bees, it might help the beekeeper (you) to a better feeling. Whatever. I just don't understand why the whole world is adopting such a thing as an "eco-floor"... Is there really no-one out there actually watching and observing their bees anymore? Hey, what is wrong with letting the bees tell you? Why everyone seems to put his world view (or others opinions...from the internet/web) onto the bees, and tell the bees how they have to be? Most of the glamorous theories – and there are a lot(!) of them – proofed to be wrong in the real world. Welcome to reality.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Michael Bush said:


> Maybe we need the right fungus and the right mites (Pseudoscorpions etc.) living in the detritis.


Maybe. Doubt it.

In 2013 I was breeding pseudoscorpions as varroa control and released them into hives, also into the two hives living in my house. I never again saw a scorpion for years up right now. A couple of weeks ago I was astonished to see a pseudoscorpion crawling in my bathroom. 










































Didn't help much with varroa, though. You need hundreds of them for a slight effect on varroa. Since those scorpions mate once a year and need two years to ripe into an adult, breedings hundreds of them for a single hive is simply impossible.


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## Oldtimer

Wow that's pretty amazing Bernhard, must have needed considerable skill to breed them! What did you feed them?


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## GregB

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Errrm, Greg...this is plain wrong what you theorize...
> ...... Welcome to reality.


Darn thing, just now read this.

I should have taken picture yesterday, while splitting a hive.
Will do the next time - the floor is FULL of trash they pulled out of the meshed walls (that I am testing) and dumped on the floor.

But the trash will be right there, on the floor, next time I will look into it in 2-3 weeks.
Will take a photo and hang right here to show you.

Deep frame (Layens or deeper) and deep floor under it - they will not clean.
This is not a theory - this is the real observation.
In fact, this is a common complain about traditional Spanish beekeeping ways (which the Gov is trying to eradicate and so far failing).
The Spaniards traditionally keep their bees in "dirty" Layens hives *where hive floor hygiene very difficult to maintain.*
Guess what, the bees do not care to clean the floors in the proper deep hives.

All I am saying - living in excessively sterile environment is bad for everyone (people, dogs, bees, what have you). 
This is a wider topic and well researched by now.



> But continue to dump compost into your hives, if it doesn't help the bees, it might help the beekeeper (you) to a better feeling.


PS: to be sure - compost (i.e. rotten vegetable remains) belongs in my veggie garden (which is where I dump it, appropriately).


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## BernhardHeuvel

GregV said:


> Deep frame (Layens or deeper) and deep floor under it - they will not clean.
> This is not a theory - this is the real observation.


Wait until the second year before you come to conclusions...bees don't do much cleaning before they are fully established in that hive. 


PS: I have my own veggie garden since I am ten years old. And of course I use compost myself for growing veggies. Not only that I understand that compost is not humus. And if you understand the organics of humus vs. compost you probably won't dump it into your hives.


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## GregB

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Wait until the second year before you come to conclusions...bees don't do much cleaning before they are fully established in that hive.
> 
> 
> PS: I have my own veggie garden since I am ten years old. And of course I use compost myself for growing veggies. Not only that I understand that compost is not humus. And if you understand the organics of humus vs. compost you probably won't dump it into your hives.


Just fyi I keep my bees in Layen's the 4th season now.
But fine.

Appreciate the advice about compost vs. humus.
Agronomist by former training and a long-time homesteader here (well, born into a homestead), if comes to it.
Last year's potato crop - all compost; no chems whatsoever.










PS: all I said I was going to try out the eco-floor this season - no religious preaching in that; 
in fact, a version of ventilated bottom - what it is;
unsure how ended up with the "humus" talks.


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## Oldtimer

GregV said:


> Deep frame (Layens or deeper) and deep floor under it - they will not clean.


Greg what is this "deep floor"? Something with quite a distance from the combs?


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## BernhardHeuvel

GregV said:


> View attachment 48161


Looks like this is your first potato harvest? Good for a first try. Keep on trying and get self sufficient, it is a good thing to produce your own food. So you don't eat other people's food.



GregV said:


> Just fyi I keep my bees in Layen's the 4th season now.


Are those among the 4 survivors? => https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...ay-to-keep-(have-)-bees&p=1714971#post1714971




GregV said:


> PS: all I said I was going to try out the eco-floor this season - no religious preaching in that;
> in fact, a version of ventilated bottom - what it is;
> unsure how ended up with the "humus" talks.


Now you are unsure. But once you understand how biology works, especially microbiology/microbiom, you will not be unsure but very sure what the two things connects.


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## Michael Bush

I've been doing cutouts and removals for 45 years. Any colony that has been there very long has a layer of wax cappings etc. and is full of wax moth worms, ants, debris beetles, ants etc. The bees were doing fine and ignoring them. The first time I did a removal I was shocked by this and thought it was a bad sign, but the bees were fine and they did fine after I removed them.


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## Gray Goose

little_john said:


> That would mean having solid bottom boards on all year long. Not a chance.
> 
> In that post I was referring to just 2 hives I tested over winter. Over the years I've observed many other hives which have had partial OMF's (hence partial solid floors) within which there's *always *been a build-up of detritus on the solid floor area. Which is why 'bottom-board cleaning' has become such a necessary routine each any every season - and why I've gone to the trouble of designing a custom bottom-board assembly which facilitates bottom-board removal to make such cleaning as easy as possible (i.e. without shifting boxes).
> 
> FWIW, much to my surprise (and delight) when I inspected one of my experimental 'National-Warre' hives a few days ago - the hive was "as clean as a whistle" and required no attention at all - but, it *was* fitted with a slatted-rack over a (50% area) OMF - the OMF being directly below the slats. And no sign of any excessive moisture over winter.
> 
> I'm not making any claims ... only reporting what I have observed.
> LJ


sorry for the silly question, I am trying to follow. What is OMF?

Ok editing OMF Open Mesh Floors. So I finished the thread. I always go back to "1000" years ago,,,Bernard, No One cleaned the bottoms of the trees out, so Bees evolved with in spaces where **** Sapiens did not need to shovel out the base of the tree. So the bees "can" have debris, as they have for 1000's of years. Greg fast forward 50 years and your hive would be 1/2 full... So I agree with you that bees are ok with some debris on the bottom of the "hive" , so presumably in the wild they would eventually fill the space, dead out and move on, to other trees, VIA swarming. SO We are debating A concept in a very small time line, expand the time line and the inevitable becomes more apparent. In A way you are both correct, at some point if the tree/Hive is to stay in use, some removal may be necessary, And a year or 5 of "stuff" is likely not life threatening to the Colony. Now for me Would I "Pay" for the Eco floor which IMO is a 8-12 years head start on the fill up of my hive, Not likely, I'd rather spent the 125 on some good Vodka if you follow my drift. Later,, respectfully,
GG


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## GregB

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Looks like this is your first potato harvest?.... .


Not sure why the talking down..
I will not respond to this anymore.
I will not brag of my potato growing project either. Should have just stayed quiet.


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Now for me Would I "Pay" for the Eco floor which IMO is a 8-12 years head start on the fill up of my hive, Not likely, I'd rather spent the 125 on some good Vodka if you follow my drift. Later,, respectfully,
> GG


I would pay for it either, GG.
But since the free materials are abound, I just like playing with the tools now and then.


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## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> I would pay for it either, GG.
> But since the free materials are abound, I just like playing with the tools now and then.


I have a 5 inch drawer under 2 of my Langs for a test. this spring they were the cleanest hives. the solid BB had 2 inches of mush wet bees , mold etc. I used a 3/8 mesh so the bees could go thru if needed. they did "prime/propolize the drawer, much to my surprise. My fear is if I fail to super in time they would build comb threw the mesh floor. so if your experience they stay a bit off the floor that is good news. I used the mesh to avoid mice and shrews getting into the hive. Also in the hot time when curing honey I open the drawer a bit 2 inches for better air flow


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## GregB

GregV said:


> I would pay for it either, GG..


I meant - I would *NOT *pay.
I pay for nothing, really.


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> so if your experience they stay a bit off the floor that is good news.


It is all about "inside" vs. the "outside".
Whatever is "outside" - does not get cleaned.
Depending on your particular model of hive and management, the boundaries of the "outside" around the bee nest are getting defined differently.
Sometimes the floor is included into the "inside". 
Sometimes - not.


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## Oldtimer

Maybe we have different bees. My bees clean outside also, if there are dead bees in the grass withing a foot or two of the entrance they pick them up and fly away with them.

Next week i am starting the final wintering down round, (going into winter here). The only time i ever scrape a bottom board is if there has been some kind of hive disaster or death, and the whole hive needs a cleanup. Other than that I never scrape them because it destroys the little nodes the bees build on them to get a lift up onto the frame bottoms. 

So I'll get a pic of a typical bottom board that's been on a hive a few years and never been scraped, and post it here.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Why? Wasn‘t meant to be a talking-down?


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## BernhardHeuvel

Citation:

Walls. The wails of nest cavities were always solid (see 1. Nest "Site, Tree condition) and coated with propolis on their inner surfaces. Figure 7 shows a small area of this propolis coating. In finished nests the propolis layer was thick and completely covered a nest cavity's floor, walls and ceiling to form the propolis envelope drawn in figure 3. The thickness of this layer varied between 0.1 and 2.3 ram, but was generally in the 0.3 to 0.5 mm range.
We dissected several unfinished nests and thus observed the intermediate stages in the preparation of nest cavity wails. When combs only partially filled a cavity, the nest cavity's inner surface was solid and smooth with propolis only around the combs. Lower in the cavity, below the level of the combs, a layer of soft, rotten wood coated the cavity walls. This punkwood lining was up to 20 mm thick. Apparently, before bees build combs they scrape the loose, rotten wood off the walls, thereby exposing firm wood which they then coat with propolis.

This preparation of cavity wails probably serves many functions. First, clean and solid walls are essential for tight comb attachment. Also, nest defense and homeostasis of the nest atmosphere are certainly simplified by the propolis envelope which plugs small openings. Nest sanitation is probably improved since propolis is bacteriocidal (LAvm, 1968). And since propolis repels water, the propolis envelope may waterproof the nest from tree sap and other external moisture. Furthermore, because polypore fungi probably produce the nest cavi- ties (GRAY,1959), honey bees may face the problem of continued fungal decay of their nest cavity wails. The two actions of scraping decaying wood off the cavity walls, which removes fungal mycelia, plus coating the cavity walls with propolis, which is waterproof and fungicidal (LAvI~, 1968), may inhibit the wood rotting fungi. Finally, WALR~CHT (1962) ascribes a conmmnication function to the propolis layer: propolized walls signal completion of that portion of the nest.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...pis-mellifera-L.pdf?origin=publication_detail

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269996264_The_nest_of_the_honey_bee_Apis_mellifera_L


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## BernhardHeuvel

When that „eco-floor “ came up some 10 years ago, I asked Professor Seeley about it. From personal communication and from what I remember he said, that at latest in the second year everything that can‘t be thrown out, is heavily propolized and ends up thickly covered. 

Of course you can doubt whatever you want. Be free to do so. I observe the same as Seeley. At least in strong enough hives.


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## BernhardHeuvel

In a German book about beekeeping in log hives, dating back as far as 1569, it is described that log hives were not harvested before five years after initial population.


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## Oldtimer

Got out today and started final wintering down of the hives. Here's a pic of a bottom board I lifted the hive body off, this will be pretty much the same as every other bottom board. This particular hive was established in 2014, and has never had the bottom board scraped. Doesn't quite show but the whole inside surface is covered with a thin layer of propolis, and I had to hive tool the box off it to break the propolis seal also. 

The little nodes the bees build to give them a lift up to the frame bottom bars can be seen, and there is also a little bead of propolis along the front where entrance guards have been placed in previous winters.

Admittedly it is the end of our summer so there has been a good population of bees to keep it thoroughly clean. In early spring it could look a little different with a bit of dirt on it, but the bees will clean it up once they are able.

I do think the pic demonstrates that the bees clean if able to, and do not purposely propagate a "biological layer" of dirt to house other kinds of bugs.


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## Oldtimer

.
A close up showing the propolis work.


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## Gray Goose

Oldtimer said:


> .
> A close up showing the propolis work.


Nice pic, does look well propolized. sealed for winter


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## Oldtimer

Agreed. To us, propolis is messy stuff, that we have to break and scrape every time we are in a hive.

But from where the bees are looking, i am sure their hive is a nice, snug, cosy, and clean thing, with a nice coat of propolis over all surfaces and sealing all unwanted cracks, joints, and crevises.


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## Oldtimer

GregV said:


> But the trash will be right there, on the floor, next time I will look into it in 2-3 weeks.
> Will take a photo and hang right here to show you.


Yes please, a photo would be great to understand what is going on here.


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## Gray Goose

Oldtimer said:


> Yes please, a photo would be great to understand what is going on here.


Greg I think Oldtimer has lower entrance straight out bottom board, Do You have a hole in each box , Would the lift of the debris cause less of it to be removed? this may relate to the mechanics of getting the debris moved out. I have played with logs in the past, moving heavy stuff along the ground may be doable but If I had to stuff logs out a port hole, they would still be where they started at.


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## Oldtimer

Good points, the pics should also show the entrance placement etc, so we can understand how this is working for you. Also screenage, and any such info.


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## GregB

I never had standard lower entrances (as in off-the-shelf Lang setups) and have no plans for them in my equipment.
Moving towards "log-ish" designs instead (with entrances tending upwards).
When you do this (in conjunction with tall frames and plenty of general hive space), you start noticing how the hive bottom is becoming the "outside".

This is the hive am talking about - workforce was sufficiently strong to fill 4 Lang med boxes tightly before I split them.







They pulled lots of trash out of the shaving-filled walls (what they could easily dislodge) and dumped them on the floor (so thickly trashed, I could hardly see the floor - to my surprise).








I did not have time yet to inspect them since I split them 2 weeks ago (just one of my 7 locations to juggle).


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## Gray Goose

I never had standard lower entrances (as in off-the-shelf Lang setups) and have no plans for them in my equipment.
Moving towards "log-ish" designs instead (with entrances tending upwards).
When you do this (in conjunction with tall frames and plenty of general hive space), you start noticing how the hive bottom is becoming the "outside".

right,, but you would have to agree as the effort to remove debris goes up the amount removed would go down. My Langs tend to tilt 5 degrees down hill to allow water from rain to run out not in. So in the debris dragging effort these bees are going straight out and slightly down hill. So at some point the mechanics of how the debris is removed has a bearing on the bees tolerance to leave it be. So you maybe associating the bees desire to remove the debris with the "need" to have it present. Hive design may play a bigger role than originally perceived, to the "ECO" needs .
GG


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> I never had standard lower entrances (as in off-the-shelf Lang setups) and have no plans for them in my equipment.
> Moving towards "log-ish" designs instead (with entrances tending upwards).
> When you do this (in conjunction with tall frames and plenty of general hive space), you start noticing how the hive bottom is becoming the "outside".
> 
> right,, but you would have to agree as the effort to remove debris goes up the amount removed would go down. My Langs tend to tilt 5 degrees down hill to allow water from rain to run out not in. So in the debris dragging effort these bees are going straight out and slightly down hill. So at some point the mechanics of how the debris is removed has a bearing on the bees tolerance to leave it be. So you maybe associating the bees desire to remove the debris with the "need" to have it present. Hive design may play a bigger role than originally perceived, to the "ECO" needs .
> GG


It indeed may be so.
But again - the tall frames have some to do with it.
Notice how often beeks fret about bees building cross-comb *under *the frames if too much under-frame space is allegedly left.
Such a common subject.
Why is it?
Because somehow they have the strong urge do go down.
Why is it?
Because desired uninterrupted vertical span is not sufficient - my layman's theory (scientifically unproven).

For me it is a never issue.
If anything, I have trouble to pull the bees down.
The tall frame gives enough uninterrupted vertical span to cancel that "downward" urge.
With the tall frames, the "inside/outside" edge seems to go somewhere above the floor.
Why? 
I observe how bees just avoid the floor in general. 
They have no significant interest in the floor (a good thing IMO - fewer dropped mites get to ride back up). 
They tend to hang above it on the frames and on the combs.
Notice how they terminate the combs - that is where they stop and where they tend to hang about.


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## Gray Goose

interesting observations, have you tried to move the bottom bar up and inch or 2 or the floor down an inch or 2? like are they staying up from the bar or the floor. I often need to put frames from the bottom box up into the 2nd or 3 to get the last little bit drawn, down to the bottom bar.
Have you tried really deep frames like 36inch, just to see what they would do? I read the Layens books that talk about the bees wanting 19-20 inches of comb. I also see cutouts in walls that have 4 foot combs but they are narrow cavity. Bees sure are interesting Bugs.
GG


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> interesting observations, have you tried to move the bottom bar up and inch or 2 or the floor down an inch or 2? ........GG


I have not, GG.
This is because I am just a practical dude and so take advantage of existing Lang stuff (going for the cheap/easy/quick ways).
When retired and kids grow - will see.

But here is another idea to chew on:
1)we established how the swarms prefer 40-60 liter cavities the best;
2)we also established how typical tree cavities are about 30cm/12" in diameter;
3)do a calculation and you will see that an approximate cylinder with 30cm in diameter and 40-60 liters in volume will be about 50-60cm in height (60cm ~ 24").

And so, it would be normal and natural and desirable(???) to build vertically uninterrupted combs starting at the static upper base and downwards somewhere in 50-60cm range . 
It maybe after doing this for ~30-40M years, the bee memory has been wired in and is very strong (for the forest populations; the savanna/mountain populations could evolve differently).
My setup is probably approaching the "desirable" span of a forest bee, and that what is going on.


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## GregB

GregV said:


> I have not, GG....


Added: 
I only shoot for 2-4 inches of space under already tall frames - not particularly picky to be precise;
current bottom bars (if I have them at all - not always do - seem to suggest where the "floor" is).


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## GregB

GregV said:


> Will do the next time - the floor is FULL of trash they pulled out of the meshed walls (that I am testing) and dumped on the floor.
> 
> But the trash will be right there, on the floor, next time I will look into it in 2-3 weeks.
> Will take a photo and hang right here to show you.


OK, since I promised, got few pics yesterday afternoon (while splitting and such).

As projected - the trash is still right there, on the floor, and no one cares much to pull it out of the hive.
I could not even see the floor anymore - fully covered wood shavings and trash.
They have been more than a month in this wood-shaving stuffed hive to make it shiny clean inside and out, if it really mattered.
There were plenty of no-flight days to do nothing but house cleaning.
The workforce was a plenty (well, less so now due to the splitting off).
The lowest entrances in this 12-frame Layens hive are about 3 inches above the solid floor - should not prevent the material moves out, if it really matters.

So I conclude - bees in this particular hive are comfortable enough as-is, to be concerned about the floor sweeping.
The floor in this instance is just the same as the bottom in a large enough tree hollow - bees don't clean them (it is a trash pit).























The most radical example of the "bottom-the-trash pit" I have seen was during this cut-out.
The bottom in this "cavity" is about 3-4 meters down below.
No one ever cleaned that one.


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## BernhardHeuvel

GregV said:


> View attachment 48403


Did you use foundation for those combs? Were there other combs with foundation beside those combs? 

Looks like adulterated/contaminated wax to me.


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## Gray Goose

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Did you use foundation for those combs? Were there other combs with foundation beside those combs?
> 
> Looks like adulterated/contaminated wax to me.


What do you see that looks "adulterated" or "contaminated" ?


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## little_john

Gray Goose said:


> What do you see that looks "adulterated" or "contaminated" ?


I was going to ask exactly the same question - what is it that's causing suspicion ? But I've just found out ...

Have a look over in the Commercial sub-forum. Bernhard has posted there about contaminated wax - which is really bad news. One possible giveaway is that it can be cloudy. Guess that's the factor here.

But - I'm pretty sure Greg is 100% foundationless. I'm sure he'll be along soon to confirm (or not ?).
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> But - I'm pretty sure *Greg is 100% foundationless. * I'm sure he'll be along soon to confirm (or not ?).
> LJ


100% foundation-less in the brood-nest.

PS: clarification - recently I scavenged for next to nothing lots and lots of foundation-based frames, fully drawn;
I will use them in the honey supers only - trying capture some honey crop


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## beechet

I jumped into the eco floor idea and tried using peat moss and I won't be doing that again. The wax moths absolutely thrive in it. So now I have to come up with some way to raise the bottom in a hive that has bees in it. Thinking about some slatted rack modules of sorts, maybe sections of them about 4 or 5 frames wide and set out 4 or frames at a time to put em in place. I did have enough sense to put hinges on the bottom so at least I can do a good cleaning later which I already did when I dumped the peat moss.


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## GregB

If I get to this project (seems doubtful - got bigger fish to fry), I may just do some rough wood shavings and bark chunks and so it will be a pass-through filter of sort.
Bees will be able to get inside this floor as they see fit (just like with my "eco-walls").

I did a kind of "eco-floors" in a couple of my trap hives already - the floor-less design (just wire screen) - did not produce any swarms into the second season now.
So now I plugged the trap bottoms with well-used burlaps folded several times (give off smell to).

As far as raising that floor UP, I would leave it as is and not worry anymore (after scooping the moss out). 
Under-frame space is good.

As far as wax moths - they don't eat the combs covered by the bees and a non-issue (also a non-issue after the warm season).
Yes - they may look concerning and intimidating.
But they don't eat bees and they don't eat combs guarded by the bees.


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## odfrank

I rescued (paid job, of course) this colony in an oak tree this winter and mounted it on a pallet. These survivors have expanded so much that they have excavated thru their EcoFloor material and pushed it out the bottom and added that as an entrance. See picture if EcoFloor material attached.


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