# Huge mite drop



## Bob Anderson (Jun 13, 2014)

First year. I went most of the summer thinking I didn't have a mite problem. I got 2 nucs June 3rd and put them in 10 frame deeps. On June 25th I did a sugar roll with the State Bee inspector and we found no mites. Aug 15th did a 3 day sticky board count and found 2 per day in one hive and 7 per day in the other hive. According to local beeks that was low and in general "mites were not a problem around here this year". Sounds great, right? Sept 29th did another 3 day sticky board test and got 32 per day and >70 per day from the 2 hives. That now starts to sound like an issue. I tried to find out what the treatment threshold is around here but didn't get an answer but a recollection I had from a local meeting was either 50 per day or 50 per 3 days, I can't remember which, was stated. In either case it looked like I met the threshold. I treated both hives with OAV 3 times, five days apart and I was truly astounded by the mite drop. I was further astounded by the mite drop after the third treatment. I figured the first 2 treatments would wipe out most of them but the 3rd treatment seemed to give the greatest drop. Why? Were they the tail end of the mite population explosion?

If I inserted it correctly, here's a look at the sticky board from the 3rd treatment and this is the 24 to 72 hr mite drops, I cleaned off the 24 hr mite drop before thinking of taking the pic.









Is this a typical scenario, the huge mite drops after treating with a 50 per day mite count? Did I wait too long? Should I treat at a lower mite count number? Is the explosion in mite population from mid-Aug to late-Sept normal?

Overall it was a great first year. I got nearly 100 lbs of honey. The hives will overwinter in double deeps with a med super of honey/syrup on top. I just weighed them and they are roughly 140 to 150 lbs with lots of bees. I'll OAV treat again at Thanksgiving.

Thanks

Bob


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It's all about timing and when capped brood is emerging. A lot of fresh brood might have hatched after the second treatment and out came a fresh batch of mites which you hit with the 3rd round. OAV can be slightly ineffective if the brood cycle doesn't mesh up.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Your experience illustrates how mites multiply and become a problem in a short time. I am always worried about mites!


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

One lesson I definitely learned during the first year is, the better your hive is doing, the more opportunity there is for the mite population to explode. That's a little counter intuitive.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

e-spice said:


> One lesson I definitely learned during the first year is, the better your hive is doing, the more opportunity there is for the mite population to explode. That's a little counter intuitive.


Good job, you figured it out in just one year. :thumbsup: The refrain is often heard on here and is always the same, "but they looked so good the last time I checked them". 
I liken mite increases to the old analogy of how much money you have after 30 days if you start with a penny and double it each day. It all seems inconsequential until the last couple of days. its why it is so important to start the season with low numbers it just might buy you enough time at the end of the season


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Here is a link to a concise article on mite count methods and treating thresholds from Ontario Ministry of Food and Agriculture. Your mite drops are much higher than what they recommend.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/food/inspection/bees/varroa-sampling.htm


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Honey bees pay attention to the length of days. The last week in June is the longest length of days, the summer solstice. By the first of July the queen has started reduced egg laying, and it gets less and less eggs per day, and in many places actually stops, by the winter solstice at the end of December.

The varroa mites don't pay attention the the length of days. The varroa mites reproduce inside of capped bee pupae, slipping in the day before the larvae is capped. There is an average of close to 2 mites raised in each bee pupae that gets infested.

As the queen laying and therefore brood rearing slows during the last half of the year, the percentage of varroa per brood number increases. The end of September is the fall equinox, and at that time the bees really start reducing brooding, over and above the slow down they've been having since the end of June. The varroa have been increasing in numbers all along. By the time September and October get here, the mite percentages per brood has really exploded. By this time, it can become quite apparent to the beekeeper that something is not quite right in the beehive.

I have found that I can not go treatment free here where I am in this location with the genetics of bees I have been getting in the area. I must treat, or I will experience very heavy hive losses, and the hives that do live through into March, are not worth counting as a hive.

Some areas with some bee genetics are reported to not treat and also get a good honey crop. Most areas and bee genetics can not do that, not that I've seen or heard of. I've had to make a choice, my choice is to treat and change my management practices in order to have any decent looking hives in March time frame.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

e-spice said:


> One lesson I definitely learned during the first year is, the better your hive is doing, the more opportunity there is for the mite population to explode. That's a little counter intuitive.


Not really counter intuitive- mites reproduce in brood cells- so the more brood building, the more opportunity for mite reproduction


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## Mountain Bee (Apr 7, 2012)

"According to local beeks that was low and in general "mites were not a problem around here this year". Sounds great, right"

I myself have never experienced a year when mites were not a problem.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> its why it is so important to start the season with low numbers it just might buy you enough time at the end of the season


Stop.... we have a winner.

Dang.... It's Jimmy again.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

winevines said:


> Not really counter intuitive- mites reproduce in brood cells- so the more brood building, the more opportunity for mite reproduction


Sure - I understand what is going on. I am just saying it is a bit counter intuitive. The better the hive is doing the more likely they'll have serious mite problems.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Waiting till the evidence is undeniable and late in the season, puts you in a hard place to defend.


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## Bob Anderson (Jun 13, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the great comments. The point of a strong hive being more susceptible to mites is a good one. They have more brood being processed and there are more bees in the hive and I suppose that would render sticky board counting even less accurate than a sugar roll. It holds true in my case too since it was the stronger hive that had the higher count numbers and the greater mite drop after treating. 

Crofter - thanks for the link to the Ontario Ag doc. Clearly they take a more aggressive line on the treatment threshold, a position that I will adopt. Even at that though, my August count was below their threshold but if I had tested even a week later in August I suspect I would have been over their threshold numbers. 

I had read on Randy Oliver's site that mid-August was a critical time to test so I went along with that. I would likely have not tested again and waited until late November to treat if I had not heard a well-respected local commercial beek state that if you see 14 mites over 3 days on a sticky board you better think of treating. I thought that was a little too aggressive but that did prompt me to do another sticky board which was what ultimately demonstrated the explosive population growth of mites in my hives. It may have been too late by the end of November...


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

crofter said:


> Waiting till the evidence is undeniable and late in the season, puts you in a hard place to defend.


Yes! I agree 100%


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

OAV is changing what I previously perceived as reliable mite counts. Since I've started with OAV my mite counts after usage have always exceeded by a large margin what I expected to find after a sugar roll, ether roll, or alcohol wash. I no longer use those tests as I have found them unreliable to what I actually find in my hives. Now, I treat when I see mites in drone brood, 3 times (once every five days) during Sept-Oct and once again at around Thanksgiving when the hive is basically broodless.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

snl said:


> OAV is changing what I previously perceived as reliable mite counts. Since I've started with OAV my mite counts after usage have always exceeded by a large margin what I expected to find after a sugar roll, ether roll, or alcohol wash. I no longer use those tests as I have found them unreliable to what I actually find in my hives. Now, I treat when I see mites in drone brood, 3 times (once every five days) during Sept-Oct and once again at around Thanksgiving when the hive is basically broodless.


Resurrecting this thread. I just finished a round of 3 OAV treatments, 7 days apart. Treated 4 hives and 2 nucs. Can't count the mites on nucs due to solid bottom boards. 3 out of 4 hives showed a decrease or at least a consistent, low number for 48 hour drops. One hive had the following (post-treatment sticky board): 25/66/68. I want to believe I timed treatment right and got each hatch of varroa, but with these numbers I'm seriously considering another round. When should one stop treating? Wait until the mite count is zero?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

cervus said:


> Resurrecting this thread. I just finished a round of 3 OAV treatments, 7 days apart. Treated 4 hives and 2 nucs. Can't count the mites on nucs due to solid bottom boards. 3 out of 4 hives showed a decrease or at least a consistent, low number for 48 hour drops. One hive had the following (post-treatment sticky board): 25/66/68. I want to believe I timed treatment right and got each hatch of varroa, but with these numbers I'm seriously considering another round. When should one stop treating? Wait until the mite count is zero?


I would say to add one more treatment to the series and see if mite count drop after that. I am doing 4 times at 6 day intervals and on the one hive I have a sticky board on I am seeing an increase with each of the first three vaporizations. I have a lot of brood emerging right now so I think the rising mite fall is in line. I will continue additional vaporizations till the mite fall is virtually zero then one more when brooding has been stopped for a while (weather permitting) in November.

Edit; Sometimes if you have had a long period of queen shutdown followed by a big burst of laying, you might see brood emerging in repeated bursts. Usually in my situation emergence of brood is a rolling event so I am inclined to keep treatments closer together for a longer period to avoid emergence and reinfesting of mites in the lulls in OA presence on the frames. No science behind it, just my feeling that doing three treatments and marking it paid, needs a bit of follow up to verify.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

cervus said:


> Resurrecting this thread. I just finished a round of 3 OAV treatments, 7 days apart. Treated 4 hives and 2 nucs. Can't count the mites on nucs due to solid bottom boards. 3 out of 4 hives showed a decrease or at least a consistent, low number for 48 hour drops. One hive had the following (post-treatment sticky board): 25/66/68. I want to believe I timed treatment right and got each hatch of varroa, but with these numbers I'm seriously considering another round. When should one stop treating? Wait until the mite count is zero?


Frank (Crofter) had a very good response to this.....


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

crofter said:


> I would say to add one more treatment to the series and see if mite count drop after that. I am doing 4 times at 6 day intervals and on the one hive I have a sticky board on I am seeing an increase with each of the first three vaporizations. I have a lot of brood emerging right now so I think the rising mite fall is in line. I will continue additional vaporizations till the mite fall is virtually zero then one more when brooding has been stopped for a while (weather permitting) in November.
> 
> Edit; Sometimes if you have had a long period of queen shutdown followed by a big burst of laying, you might see brood emerging in repeated bursts. Usually in my situation emergence of brood is a rolling event so I am inclined to keep treatments closer together for a longer period to avoid emergence and reinfesting of mites in the lulls in OA presence on the frames. No science behind it, just my feeling that doing three treatments and marking it paid, needs a bit of follow up to verify.


Thank you Frank. Hopefully it is just catching the flush of emerging brood at the right time. I will add an additional treatment and check, and a final treatment between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Glad I started early enough. I agree with you that three treatments is probably just a good starting point, but needs verification. The rub is some people probably assume (wrongly, such as in my case) that 3 treatments is adequate. Without a mite drop count after treatment, that assumption may lead to problems.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I will be doing a fifth vaporization on Friday if the weather suits. I did 6 days, 6 days, 5 days, and the fifth treat will also be 5 days. Treating 13 colonies but only have sticky board on one. I got the heaviest drop so far after the third treatment but still a few dropping after the fourth. I had been apparently without mites at all for 2 years but got a bit lax I guess unless I am treating someone elses mites now

I started seeing a few crawlers and more bees grooming each other so I went hunting. My mite threshold is ONE! Three treatments may have been enough to get the bees through winter but I want to see if I can have a longer record of 100% winter survival than Enjambres has!


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