# Bottom-bar-less foundationless frames?



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

How could you tighten the wires with no bottom bar? You young guys smoke too much weed and get confused.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Oliver, Oliver! :no:  The guy I saw do this was 47 years old! Basically the wires were all that was keeping the sidebars from splaying out too much. If I am remembering right he used dowels for the same thing on some of his frames; that would work way better.


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## Ranger Cody (Jan 21, 2012)

Here's my question. Why would you want to do that? What advantage would there possibly be?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Ranger Cody:
His main reason for doing such was this: The bees build comb almost all the way down the full depth of the frame but stop just short leach about 3/8" in between the bottom edge of the comb and bottom bars. Now, without the bottom bars, the bees built the comb all the way down, leaving the proper bee space between the bottom edge of the comb and the top of the frame below it. It worked for him, I was just wondering if anyone else was crazy enough to try it.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

westernbeekeeper said:


> ... It worked for him, I was just wondering if anyone else was crazy enough to try it.


Pictures: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-frameless-honey-in-Santa-Monica-July-16-2012
Based on this - I obviously crazy. Look at all these pictures - most of frames have no bottom bar, some of them have no side bars ether! I do not use wire and just for the record - I do not smoke. In foundationless approach, I noticed that bees in most cases do not attach comb to the bottom bar or it is weak attachment - thus, there is no need in it. Similarly - side bars limit bees in making pathways to access the comb - why one need side bars if bottom bar already demolished? I have to admit that using truncated foundationless frames requires more attention - most cross-comb and attachments to the sides happened if frame sits in the hive unattended for more than 2-3 month. I noticed also, that frames with or without side bars have exactly the same chance for messed comb - I had it twice, one time it was full frame without foundation (guide) and second time it was truncated frame, top bar basically with guide. Sergey


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Okay, I saw the pictures. Not sure what the advantage is. How are these frames extracted?

Grant
Jackson, MO https://www.createspace.com/4106626


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Oh yes, thank you, Sergey! I now remember that thread. I am subscribed to it, and I loved it! Excellent photos. I'd like to try it some time this next season. Quick question: what are those red things that slide/clip onto the frame ears (in the photos in the referred thread)?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

This seems like Warre beekeeping in a Langstroth size box.


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

What does being 47 years old have to do with?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Grant said:


> Okay, I saw the pictures. Not sure what the advantage is. How are these frames extracted?


To me, the advantage is that I do not need to have/store the extractor, boxes with drawn comb etc. Also, it seems to me that my bees do like "natural way" - foundationless and less frame. But, I am a hobbyist, I am free to avoid commercial approach with extractor etc.

Crush-and-strain method was invented way before extractors. Also, many non-Lang beehive designs all around the world but USA utilized crush-and-strain method. So, I am using crush-and-strain. Advantage of this is that I have two beautiful byproducts, wax (candles) and mead. The latest is very important to my friends.

Sergey


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

odfrank said:


> This seems like Warre beekeeping in a Langstroth size box.


 Yes, pretty much! Also, I started horizontal 2x-long Lang, bees love it! So I have Warre and TBH in modified Lang boxes. The idea was to use universal hardware (did not work very well).


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

westernbeekeeper said:


> ... what are those red things that slide/clip onto the frame ears (in the photos in the referred thread)?


 Those are adapters to use standard (or truncared) frame as a top bar in the Lang box. Sergey


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

westernbeekeeper said:


> Hello all,
> I have seen some folks, when going foundationless, use (wired) frames that have no bottom bar. Does anyone else do this? What do you see as the pros and cons? Good/bad? Thanks in advance for your input.


I can only speak from what I have researched in this forum, also I am a Newbeek June 2012. My first harvest will be in the June/July time frame and I am limited to 5 hives since I am in a city housing development. In my research what I found was that using foundationless frames with wire or mono-filament fishing line (10-20 lb.) was to provide support for the comb for people who use extractors. I think that the radial type would work best for this as I think that the tangential extractors would put too much stress on the comb. Without a bottom bar you cannot pull the wire tight and the end bars would end up getting pulled in towards the center. Personally I have decided to go foundationless for my med. supers (about 50% on my brood deeps) and do the crush and strain method like Sergey. If I had more, like maybe 10-20, hives I would get an electric extractor simply to be standardized. My bees attach on the bottom bar, foundationless (Walter Kelley type F) last but all that are built out now are attached on the bottom bar. I do not think there is any right or wrong here, just personal choices on implementations since the bees seem to adapt to almost any method. My personal choice was financial if I go with an extractor I would probably go with a Maxant, but any of the extractors would work. I looked real hard at the Italian one the Brushy Mountain carries (9 frame radial) but the $500-1000 for all of the support items pushed me to the crush and strain method. I am waiting for my tax return to add to my hive count, 2 more hives as a better investment. These are only my personal thoughts/rational and I try to listen to the bees. Mike Bush also did not have an extractor for 26 years, but I think his hive count was like maybe 10, he got an extractor once he expanded his hive count.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I haven't done 100% foundationless, yet. Mostly 1/2 sheet foundation or a starter strip. I have seen, though, where the bees stop short of attaching to the bottom bar. I wonder if a raised edge was attached to the bottom bar if the bees would be more inclined to attach to it. I'm sure someone has tried this...I'm waiting to hear from them. 

Ed


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

mmmooretx said:


> I think that the radial type would work best for this as I think that the tangential extractors would put too much stress on the comb.


I have both types of extractor (4 frame hand crank tangential and 18 frame motorized radial) and if I had foundationless frames I would use the tangential. The comb rests on the basket and would be a lot less likely to separate from the frame. Not that it couldn't happen, but if it would separate in the tangential, I'm pretty positive that it would fly off in the radial.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Thanks for this post. I posted something similar elsewhere but no responses. Started going foundationless last season and got to thinking along these same lines. TBH in a Lang. My lack of experience in this made me wonder if the bees would attach to the sides and stop before the bottom. Looks like they will for the most part. I get messed up std frames as well. I've got a lot of med frames that I'm not going to use and thought I could take the BB off and use in a deep. I also think I can make a top bar but not a TB and frame very well. With the Lang as your std, you can still, seems to me, help a fellow Lang beek out with a frame of brood or trim it to fit your TBH buddies. My concern for me, is to remember not to flip it horizontal to look at with no side bars. 
Good info thanks
Rick


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## WVMJ (Apr 2, 2012)

I put some top bar combs in a nuc deep on top of another deep to let the bees get the honey, they then added to the comb and anchored it right to the top of the bars under it, we have to saw the boxes in half to open them. This spring the top bar combs go back into the TBH to stay. WVMJ


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

WVMJ said:


> I put some top bar combs in a nuc deep on top of another deep to let the bees get the honey, they then added to the comb and anchored it right to the top of the bars under it, we have to saw the boxes in half to open them. This spring the top bar combs go back into the TBH to stay. WVMJ


Try using a long thin bread knife to separate them, after removing what frames you can, and put them in a temporary deep, until the surgery is done. Some prying/proping with a hive tool may be needed to get access to the middle top bars, or try sliding the top box over enough to use the flexable bread knife.
Better to sacrafice some comb rather than a box. Anyway just some thoughts, and best of luck.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I don't see any advantage at all, especially since next spring when the bees ramp up on the main flow they are VERY likely to attach the comb to the top of the top bar underneath the comb. Not a pretty sight when you try to pry them out.

The whole point of frames is that the comb is secured in such a way as to allow you to remove it without damaging it. Bottomless frames, top bars, and all variations where there is not a solid frame all the way around defeat the purpose, and make the comb much easier to damage while moving it.

Crush and strain is VERY wasteful, and a real mess if you have a significant number of hives. Takes a lot of nectar to make wax, after all, and they fill them up much faster when you use drawn empty comb rather than empty frames or foundation.

The bees will draw foundationless comb down to the bottom bar eventually, but probably only on the spring flow. One advantage of using foundation is that the frames will almost always be completely drawn out and attached.

Peter

Peter


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

WVMJ said:


> I put some top bar combs in a nuc deep on top of another deep to let the bees get the honey, they then added to the comb and anchored it right to the top of the bars under it, we have to saw the boxes in half to open them. This spring the top bar combs go back into the TBH to stay. WVMJ


 Strange, I never (keeping in mind my limited experience) had it. In my situation, it is more likely to have comb attached to the sides but not to the bottom. I wonder how often you inspect your hives? In my hands, it took at least month (more!) for bees to start attaching comb to the sides. Of coarse, TB approach is needed when "frameless frames" used - carefully cut comb if anchored before removing the frame. Sergey


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

psfred said:


> .... Takes a lot of nectar to make wax, after all, and they fill them up much faster when you use drawn empty comb rather than empty frames or foundation...


 Peter, where you get it? I am curious. This statement appeared from time-to-time in different places to justify the use of drawn comb to save nectar/honey... I was trying to find any reasonable evidence that this is true - no luck, only unsupported statements.... Based on study I did, the origin of this myth is just calculation how much chemical energy is needed to convert sugar (nectar) into wax... If so, it is nothing to do with real situation. Since wax produced by special glands, bees likely have no control (or limited control) over the function of the glands. Thus, wax, probably produced all the time wasting valuable nectar... I would imagine that bees produce wax only at some stage of development (nurses?). It would be interesting to hear if anybody have real facts on it. Sergey


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

cerezha said:


> Since wax produced by special glands, bees likely have no control (or limited control) over the function of the glands. Thus, wax, probably produced all the time wasting valuable nectar...


I have read that bees produce wax when they are forced to hold nectar in there stomach because there is no place to store it. It was said that this is why swarms are such great comb builders. 

Wax is not produced all the time. There are times (late in the season for example) when it is difficult to get them to build comb.


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## oldfordguy (Dec 5, 2009)

Intheswamp said:


> ...I wonder if a raised edge was attached to the bottom bar if the bees would be more inclined to attach to it. I'm sure someone has tried this...I'm waiting to hear from them.
> 
> Ed


I have built some foundationless frames with a "comb guide" pointing up on the bottom bar (bottom bar is actually triangle stock) and they seem to connect the comb more quickly and completely on those frames.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

ralittlefield said:


> <snip>... It was said that this is why swarms are such great comb builders. ...<snip>


I believe that this is also the reason we find external colonies....the bees, while hanging on a branch or whatever waiting for the scouts to come back and lead them to their new home/cavity, get tired of having a packed belly full of honey and start a little comb building...once the queen lays a small patch of brood in it they figure it's all good and call it "home".

oldfordguy, how did you rig your bottom bars? I've got some grooved bottom bars that I'm thinking of using if I can find a good size of wood trim to slip in there and glue, I thought about using some wedges for wedge top frames but they are too wide. I'm thinking if I can find the right thickness of trim I can rip it longways if it's too broad.

Ed


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## WVMJ (Apr 2, 2012)

Actually, I found some braided fishing line like Gorrila Braid looped a couple of times between some D-rings works great to cut the combs from between boxes. I am not trying to keep Top bars in these boxes permanently, I broke my TBH and needed a place to store the bars with bees before I fixed their hive, of course TGH still waiting to be fixed but winter isnt over yet  WVMJ



mmmooretx said:


> Try using a long thin bread knife to separate them, after removing what frames you can, and put them in a temporary deep, until the surgery is done. Some prying/proping with a hive tool may be needed to get access to the middle top bars, or try sliding the top box over enough to use the flexable bread knife.
> Better to sacrafice some comb rather than a box. Anyway just some thoughts, and best of luck.


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## WVMJ (Apr 2, 2012)

My first year, I probably inspect them to much. It did not take them long to connect and widen the top bar hive combs when I put them in some deep nucs, they took it right down to the top of the bars in the box below and then widened it and filled them up with honey. I hope to build another TBH so that I can swap comb around and not try to store in a Lang box again. I do plan on letting the nucs build new comb on some top bars to get them started. Funny thing is they never attached the combs from the top bars to the sides of the nuc box, just to the next bar below. WVMJ



cerezha said:


> Strange, I never (keeping in mind my limited experience) had it. In my situation, it is more likely to have comb attached to the sides but not to the bottom. I wonder how often you inspect your hives? In my hands, it took at least month (more!) for bees to start attaching comb to the sides. Of coarse, TB approach is needed when "frameless frames" used - carefully cut comb if anchored before removing the frame. Sergey


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