# New World Carniolans/Carniolans



## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

I believe the New Worlds are hybrids but I don't know what of. I too look forward to a good answer.

Mike


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## LSBees (Sep 24, 2009)

New Worlds are a Hybrid - You can find information on them here http://www.strachanbees.com/about_us.html


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## joshk (Mar 31, 2010)

If I remember right the nwc are not a hybrid but a lineage that sue cobey developed through the breeding of thirty some proven carni lines. They would be true carni that have all the properties of a carni strain (including swarming tendency). They are more winter hardy and have shown resistence to mite problems. Look up Honey Run Apiaries they sell the nwc and I believe they have more info on them. I bought a virgin from them last year. So far they have a very small cluster that seems to be almost frozen in time (something mike palmer says is a good thing for winter survival). If they make it throught the winter I hope the see the population explosion they are known for.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Joshk,
From what I read on the Strachen web site, they are not hybrid, but are an accumulation of Carniolan genetics and then bred for the best. I've read that they are the gentilest of all bees to keep. I've not seen any negatives on beesource about them other than swarming, which unlike the Russians the Carniolan should be slowed by good management techniques. Sure would like to know more!


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

valleyman said:


> What is the differience, or are they the same and just abbreviated? I would also like to know from the beekeepers that keep them how they compare to other lineages that they have kept? Please ONLY experiences, and not speculation.:scratch:


 During the late 70's the true Carniolans were known for their swarming propensity. They were wonderful if you wanted to increase your number of hives without much effort. The new swarm would very quickly build up to "size". Started my pollination business with them, then. Sue Coby's work got rid of the swarming tendency but seems to have kept all of the good characteristics. Very enjoyable bee to work with as a hobbyist (now), winters very well here in MA., The splits that I have made from them, where the queens were allowed to open mate with drones of the area, produced an even better "local" bee which surprises me with greater yields than the original mother hives. Have tried most of them over the years (50+). Strachan's NWC is pretty good. OMTCW


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## LSBees (Sep 24, 2009)

valleyman said:


> Joshk,
> From what I read on the Strachen web site, they are not hybrid, but are an accumulation of Carniolan genetics and then bred for the best. I've read that they are the gentilest of all bees to keep. I've not seen any negatives on beesource about them other than swarming, which unlike the Russians the Carniolan should be slowed by good management techniques. Sure would like to know more!


Your correct I improperly used the tern hybrid.


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## sammyjay (May 2, 2011)

I don't know if NWCs are much different than ordinary carniolons, but my NWCs were far more productive than my italians and were more frugal with their stores than the italians. I like them much better than my italians.


P.S My NWCs became quite badly honey bound and they didn't swarm(at least not that I know of).


Nathan


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

The NWCs forage in colder temperatures, also. Mine are out foraging one to two hours before my Italians on chilly mornings. They occasionally swarm really late in the season--up into September. I like them.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies. Keep them coming, even if you don't like them.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

Tim Arheit at Honey Run Apiaries is a great guy and I can say that I like his queens and the bees they produce. I'm going through my first winter here in south east PA with his queens and , so far, I'm very happy with them. They are gentle, and seem to be tough. I have high hopes for this spring. I hope to do splits and add a hive with his stock. I highly recommend these queens.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We like the Strachen NWC. Bought 60 in mid June a couple years ago, all where excepted, 58 made it through the first brood cycle. Hard to beat that. 

Crazy Roland


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

What about the swarming propensitys of the NWC, are they better than the original Carni? Are the Honey Run genetics akin to Strachen and Sue Cobys NWCs?


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

valleyman said:


> What about the swarming propensitys of the NWC, are they better than the original Carni? Are the Honey Run genetics akin to Strachen and Sue Cobys NWCs?


 Night and day difference between the original Carniolans and the NWC :thumbsup: My NWC's *will* swarm during the second year of the queen if they are mismanaged. It's hard to believe but the original Carniolans would often swarm no matter what you would do for swarm control during the *first* year. It led to some very discouraging situations and abandoning the race by some beekeepers. That was a long time ago. Sue Coby did an amazing job with them. :applause: I believe that Strachan was one of the first to carry the NWC OMTCW


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

To the best of my understanding, New World Carniolan is a trademarked name. Just like Buckfast, I expect any NWC carrying the name are produced by breeders who have purchased a license to sell under that name, and have at least a certain amount of training and oversight to maintain the characteristics of the named type.

Based on this, I expect greater uniformity from one queen to another in such a trademarked type over the characteristics of the more generic Carniolans.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Who do any of you think would be the closest dealer of NWC bees to Fort Worth, Texas?


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I've noticed on this thread the lack of negative comments about them. I've also noticed without really watching that there are no negative comments at all on beesource that I've seen. I am not trying to promote them, I'm just trying to learn about them. I have SKCs right now and am always looking for the next great thing. After my 2011 experience with the Russians I will be very careful. If the SKCs are hard on stores in the winter then I might try the NWCs. I may even try a hive or 2 this year.


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## Dynasty (Sep 25, 2011)

after reading this thread i'm starting to wish i had got nwc for my hives instead of italians
but i may be ordering 2 more packages of bees, if i do, they will be nwc


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Dynasty,
For some reason they just don't seem to get popular. There has to be some reason why everyone doesn't want them. I think that they do better in cooler climates. I started this thread to try and find out why everyone doesn't want them. So far no answers. They are Black bees and the queens can be hard to find are the only negatives that I know of.


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## Dynasty (Sep 25, 2011)

Yeah i keep reading that they winter well, and since i'm in Colorado, and in theory were supposed to have cold winters........ they would be good???.....

Of course, i have no bees right now but have ordered 2 Italian nucs already, its not a huge priority to try them. But I've been contemplating getting a couple packages of bees so i can gain more experience in my first year. So if i do get a couple packages they will be nwcs.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Mighty hard to beat a good carniolian bee. The carni's I have are from Australia and the mother stock was two years out from Europe at the time I bought them by way of Australia. Good gentle bees, easy on their stores and overwinter nicely. I have had some of Strachans Carnis before the NWC breeding program and they were O.K. I have not tried any of Sue's bees but I bet they are good bees also. TED


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## thomas (Apr 23, 2006)

I have several hives of Nwc's and they are building up better then my other hives looked into them today and one of them had four frames of capped brood and plenty of pollen and honey stores they are blowing past my italians and russian hives. I also have a caucasian from russell and they have left them in the dust my NWC are building up way to fast for this time of the year i will have to end up running another deep on them in order the make splits from them this spring i love them i am switching over to nothing but them and caucasians.

Thomas Yancey


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

The more I hear the better they sound. I've gotten a couple of pms promoting them also. They may be the best kept secret in beekeeping!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

VM
You got PMS? Maybe that's a secret best kept to yourself! :banana:


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## LSBees (Sep 24, 2009)

Are there any good suppliers of NWC are the west coast? I just got off the phone with Strachan and they are booked until the middle of June.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

some one wrote:
They are Black bees and the queens can be hard to find are the only negatives that I know of. 

The other negative I have heard is that since they winter in smaller clusters, and do not wake up as early in the spring, they are NOT useful in Almond pollination, because they do not have the population to make grade. 

Crazy Roland


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

The other negative I have heard is that since they winter in smaller clusters, and do not wake up as early in the spring, they are NOT useful in Almond pollination, because they do not have the population to make grade. [End Quote]

It seems that the pollinater industry is controlling what we buy because the Italians are the ones and maybe the only breed that carries a large enough cluster through the winter for pollination. Or for that matter the only breed that has enough of an early build up to split early enough to get packages and nucs out for early spring sales. So the need for early spring numbers is controlling the bee breed industry. For me even in central Ky I need a bee that will winter frugualy. We haven't had much of a winter YET this year, but my bet is still on old man winter to raise his ugly head and laugh in the face of bees that are already building up their numbers for spring, and will not have enough stores to support the extra nunber of bees from the extra brood that may be producing because of the pollen supply that is there now that usually isn't avaiable this time of year. I can see where the Carnis would be better for my area, and further north, as they would not have as much to build from too quickly. At least one of the good things about the Italians is that they are easy to requeen with almost any genetic including Carnis. So buy your Italian package or nuc and requeen with the Carnis.


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## A10fuelfxr (Nov 23, 2011)

I ordered a carniolan queen from Adam Ebert in Iowa late in the summer for a queenless hive. She has an incredible brood pattern. It was my smallest of five hives (two italians, two beeweavers, and one carny) going into winter. I checked the hives yesterday and I found that a lot of bees are still alive in all five hives through this mild winter. The carniolan is the only queen that has started to lay. There was about a six inch area that had fresh eggs. I am in central Missouri.


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

LSBees said:


> Are there any good suppliers of NWC are the west coast? I just got off the phone with Strachan and they are booked until the middle of June.


 You might try Olivarez . I purchased some NWC from them a few years ago, those hives are still producing very well after a few splits. OMTCW


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Cedar Hill said:


> OMTCW


Sorry, but with my pms and being too early in the morning I can't wrap my mind around OMTCW. I've seen it before, tried googeling it to no avail. So exactly what does it stand for.


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## Jon11 (Mar 29, 2011)

How do the daughter queens of the New World Carniolans perform, especially if they cross with an italian or russian? I've read that some specialized bees, like the buckfast, lose some of their desirable qualities in the second generation. Of course, maybe what I read was wrong.


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

Jon11 said:


> How do the daughter queens of the New World Carniolans perform, especially if they cross with an italian or russian? I've read that some specialized bees, like the buckfast, lose some of their desirable qualities in the second generation.


 Who can tell with which drones they mated? Therein lies a major unknown difference. The NWC splits that I have made, whose queens mated with whatever drones were in the DCA (Drone Congregation Area) of my apiary, outproduced the original hives their first year. They are no longer dark and may sting on a rare occasion. OMTCW (Only My Two Cents Worth)


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

I kept 10 NWC queens I grafted from Strachen's stock last summer. I'm the only beekeeper in my area that uses Carniolans, everyone else around for miles uses Italians. So it is highly likely that my queens mated with Italian drones. All ten have wintered well and are now bringing in pollen. I've been observing them closely, with my face just inches away from their entrances to watch the pollen come in, and they pay me no mind. They were calm when I put megabee patties in earlier this week. The workers are a mix of colors, but mostly dark.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

From talking personally with a beekeeper today that has Carniolian mutts still loves his. He raises his own queens and keeps the darkest ones, but they are open mated in a highly mixed genetic bee area. That is the only one that I know that has experience with mutts of Carni lineage.


Now, one more big question that hasn't been addressed on this thread is how hygenic are they, and who raises the most hygeinic lineages?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We noticed good results from open mated queens(mostly Italian drones) that where daughters of Strachen NWC. They seemed to be a little better bad weather foragers, but did not winter in quite so small clusters. Kind of a compromise.

Ask Sue Colby how much value they place on hygienic behavior. Don't forget that most everything is a trade off. Was it Russell that spoke of poor production from hygienic bees?

Crazy Roland


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

valleyman said:


> Now, one more big question that hasn't been addressed on this thread is how hygenic are they, and who raises the most hygeinic lineages?


 The following is a quote from the latest Strachan adv. (No, I don't work for them.) "We select for *hygienic behavior,* honey production, mite resistance,and gentleness." OMTCW


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I wonder, I think I asked before if the Honey Run Apiaries hav any of the Sue Coby developed genetics and how hygenic their Carnis are? I had much rather order queens from Ohio than California the way todays Post Office is.


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## ashb82 (Apr 22, 2010)

I have NWC that are from the Sue Coby stock they where my first hives and they spoiled me. best advice i can give you leave the brood box with 2 empty frames in the spring at all times and let the bees build there own natural comb. i have never treated my bees i had italians 5 ft beside NWC, the italian got eat up with mites and died. i have never lost a hive of NWC in winter. they have such small winter clusters i worry if they are dead but they always pull threw in the spring. they are calm bees i dont have to wear a suit.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Still, no information on Honey Run Apiaries???


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Check Tim's Web site, valleyman. Like I've posted here before, "New World Carniolan," abbreviated NWC, is a trademarked name. I believe that anyone selling queens under that name must be licensed under at least minimal standards by the holder of the trademark. To meet those qualifications, the seller would need to be selling stock obtained from the breeding program in this case. Otherwise, the purpose of trademarking the name loses its meaning.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I've been to the website a couple of times, what I would like is to hear about the experiences some have had with them and their product. I really hate to just shoot into the dark if you know what I mean. I'm thinking that I'm going to try at least a couple of hives/nuc of them this spring. Probably might buy queenless nucs to add them to. Probably might is a disclaimer that I'm not sure of anything. Seems to fit in with beekeeping, huh?


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## ashb82 (Apr 22, 2010)

valleyman said:


> Still, no information on Honey Run Apiaries???


website say there from the sue coby stock, if there anything like the ones i got they are a good. the only problem i have with mine are the shut down brood rearing in late summer just in time for sourwood but i have learned its do to the summer dearth so this year i am going to set a 5 gallon feeder of sugar water out in summer to see if it helps.


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

I got two of tims queens last year. THey were added to small nucs i set up in late may. they built up very nicely in the flow to up to 4 mediums. They shut down in the late summer and populations remained on the low side through the fall. However, mite counts remained very low (< 5 dropped/48 hrs) and they are doing well with a nice melon sized cluster this winter. Plenty of stores left and no supplemental feeding needed. They were more defensive than italian package bees but no problem working them.
Other colonies i am over wintering are italian and hybrid carni/italian from koehnens. these bees maintained higher populations the entire summer, especially the italians. They were started from packages 1.5 months ahead of the carnis and produced more honey. I think had tims bees been started at the same time they would have matched these other bees. The mite loads in the packages were much higher and i did treat them with hopguard.
I plan on getting some more queens from him.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks doc, 
This is the kind of info that is very useful. To hear that they were more defensive is unusual as Carnis are known for their gentileness.


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## joshk (Mar 31, 2010)

If you plan on getting nwc from honey run order early, I have tried to get them a few times and he sells out. I did get the one virgin last year for a queenless hive, and she did very well. I believe he only has limited quantity, choosing to provide quality over quantity.


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## Mustang (Jan 10, 2011)

I have NWC from honey run they are as gentle as my cordovan italians. they make beautiful white dry caped comb.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks Mustang, I was at the Allen Co. bee school this past Sat. There was some talk of Carniolans trom some of the presenters. I'm not sure that they are not going to get more popular soon.

I would still like to point out that the only complaint about them is that the queen is hard to spot. Surely someone has had bad experiences with them.


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## sammyjay (May 2, 2011)

My NWCs were more gentle than my italians. They do make nice comb like Mustang said. The queen (who wasn't marked) was fairly easy to spot when the hive wasn't crowded and she was no harder to spot than the marked italian queen I have.


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

valleyman said:


> Thanks doc,
> This is the kind of info that is very useful. To hear that they were more defensive is unusual as Carnis are known for their gentileness.


I should expand, by defensive i meant that they did tend to fly out at my head more than my other bees while working them, and their guard bees actively watched the entrance, especially after the flow was over in late summer. I actually like this - little chance of robbing or letting pests in. They were easily workable. They had very low mite counts and needed no treatment! I think they are great bees and will get some more this year.

This compares do my other bees which are superdocile italians and dont exhibit the headbutting and guard bee activity. I've seen hive beetle fly right up to the entrance and walk in. I did not see that with the NWC


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## timgoodin (Mar 10, 2007)

Valleyman thanks for the thread, I want to try some NWC's this year. I had similiar results that you did a couple/three years ago with the russians!! Many of the beekeepers around the Paducah area use Carniolans or NWC daughters. I was told at the beekeeping workshop at Kent Williams last year that they are better adapted for our area due to shutting down late summer and very frugal with stores during winter and drought times. My main concern was are they good at hygenic behaviour since I don't intend to treat them but try to practice summer splits, winter nuc carryover, etc. Thanks again for the thread, I'm watching it with interest also your comments about Russell's SK has me wanting to try some of those this year.

Tim Goodin


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Tim,
The SKCs are gentle and seem to be good bees. I'm still evaluating them. You know how our weather has been so I haven't went into the hives to disturb them. The only thing I've done is lifted on the hives to check for weight. I have 3 that are getting light so I put sugar on a plastic inner cover and will watch them. These were light hives with low population going into winter. I had fed them as much as they would take. So basically I have to wait until mid March to make a good evaluation. They are supposed to be more frugal than Italians, but they are still of Italian lineage. If they do excellent then I might want more. But I think I still want to try the Carnis. There are several good suppliers in the Western part of the state, including Kent. If you want his email pm me, I have it.
Anyone know of any negatives with the Carnis?


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## Mustang (Jan 10, 2011)

valleyman said:


> Thanks Mustang, I was at the Allen Co. bee school this past Sat. There was some talk of Carniolans trom some of the presenters. I'm not sure that they are not going to get more popular soon.
> 
> I would still like to point out that the only complaint about them is that the queen is hard to spot. Surely someone has had bad experiences with them.


 I was at the allen co. bee school too. They can be hard to spot I mark all my queen's they dont run on the comb which helps to spot them. I have had bees for 21years and have had all but buckfast queen's over the years nwc queen's are good here wet spring dry summer. they do winter in a bigger cluster than old school carniolans and are less to swarm.


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## Moccasin (May 18, 2010)

I have 2 of Tim's Queens from Honey Run and there are absolutely no negatives. I have found it very easy to see the queens because they are so much darker they stand out. They are marked as well and it proves to me they are Tim's originals and haven't superceded. They work earlier in the morning and on cooler days with more gusto than all the others and they are the calmest bees ever when we work them. I wish my whole apiary was just them. Tim has done an excellent job of keeping them dark. The first Russians I ordered in 1997 were dark Carniolan known as (ARSYC1). They sent me some ordinary yellow Italian Queens the last time I ordered in 2010.I guess they bred out with all those cheap commercial Italian bees down there in Louisiana. Tim's bees are really putting in the nectar and drawing out comb. I would recommend them to a friend that's for sure! Since the giant Queen breeders focus on quantity not quality and they are all located in the deep South they want a breeder queen that lays eggs all year, I think that is why most bees here in the USA are yellow Italian.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

We have some NWC that have been diluted several generations, & they are still good bees.
Sue now works between UC Davis, & Washington state university. Last year she imported sperm from Europe to improve the breed even more.
Don't think Oliverez has carried NWC for a couple years now.


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