# Trapout Base of Oak Tree



## steveo (Jul 8, 2014)

Hi All,

I am wanting to do a trapout on these bees to save them from extermination. I have tried to convince the homeowner to let me remove bees each year while leaving the hive intact but unfortunately she seems to wants them gone and the crevasse sealed up afterwards. 

Please provide any good advice and recommendations you have on this situation. Its now late July and my concern is that the timing is bad for these bees to come out without any of their stores? 

I'm going to try and see if I can stretch the situation out until spring before I complete the removal but that will all depend on if the trapout reduces the visible activity very much. These bees have been here for multiple years so I'm very interested to get and preserve their localized genes.

Regards,
SteveO


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I'm guessing tree removal is out of the question as well?


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## steveo (Jul 8, 2014)

Mr.Beeman said:


> I'm guessing tree removal is out of the question as well?


Unfortunately tree removal is not an option


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

steveo said:


> Please provide any good advice and recommendations you have on this situation. Its now late July and my concern is that the timing is bad for these bees to come out without any of their stores?


Timing would be late for us, but you are in a much warmer zone. If she wants them gone, I would be tempted to proceed with the trapout. Who knows, they may die overwinter anyways. There is a good chance you won't get the queen anyways. Drawn comb would give them a huge boost.

Waiting until spring would be best, no doubt. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.

Shane


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I'm interested to see how this plays out. In our area, red and black oaks are prone to termite infestations. They develop a particular bulge in the lower 4-5 ft of trunk, not like a pretty trumpet flare of a healthy trunk, but more gradual taper. There is usually a small hole near the ground that may weep water. Every now and then a big wind comes along and snaps one of these trees off, revealing a cavity inside that is bizarre-looking, almost like a loofah.

I'm thinking that sort of cavity might be tempting as a feral hive. If that's what they're in, and the tree is near a house, it probably WILL come down on its own at a time and in a direction not of the owner's choosing.

White oaks and chestnut oaks are not so prone to this.


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## steveo (Jul 8, 2014)

Phoebee said:


> If that's what they're in, and the tree is near a house, it probably WILL come down on its own at a time and in a direction not of the owner's choosing.
> 
> White oaks and chestnut oaks are not so prone to this.


This is Western Oregon so pretty sure its a white oak. I'll be taking a closer look and getting started today or tomorrow.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

tsmullins said:


> There is a good chance you won't get the queen anyways. Shane


tsmullins... Just wondering, Why is there a good chance you won't get the queen???? What is the reason???

cchoganjr


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## GOHoney (Jun 19, 2013)

Use the Cleo Hogan plans for the trap-out. I have done two this year and worked well beyond my expectations. The first hive is doing great and the second is waiting for a queen to hatch.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> tsmullins... Just wondering, Why is there a good chance you won't get the queen???? What is the reason???
> 
> cchoganjr



I have poor success getting the queens to move into my trap.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

tsmullens... Are you using unsealed brood in your trap to draw her out. Do you start your trapouts in early Spring during the rapid buildup phase in preparation for the Spring honey flow.

My success rate (getting the queen) from a tree trapout is very high, because, you can normally place the trap parallel and horizontal to the brood nest in the tree. Especially in Spring, when the tree colony is expanding rapidly, the queen will move into your trap to lay eggs. She is normally looking for any place to lay eggs.

I almost always catch her and put her back into the tunnel and let the bees (the ones I move) make their own queen from the brood that she has layed in the trap. If you are wanting the feral genetics, and wanting to get 3 or 4 starts from the tree each year, and you take the feral queen, you run the risk of not having a viable egg back in the tree and you may accidentally kill the colony for lack of a queen. This is especially true if she has been in the trap for several days and there are no viable eggs left in the tree, from which they could make themselves a new queen.

Getting the queen from a house trapout is more problematic, because, quite often the brood nest may be several feet, (even several yards) from the entrance, and the queen may not move that far to come into your trap. However, over the years I have been successful on many occasions, at getting the queen from a house trapout. But, success rate is significantly less in buildings, than in trees, tanks, tiles, pipes, water meters, culverts, and other close quarters situations.

In elimination trapouts it is certainly beneficial to get the queen. It weakens the colony faster because no new brood will be made until they make themselves a new queen. During this interval, the colony can be weakened to the point that it cannot sustain itself.

If I can ever help, in any way, with a trapout, just let me know. Happy to help.

Thank You.

cchoganjr


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## steveo (Jul 8, 2014)

Mr. cchoganjr,

Thank you for the plans. You state that "place the trap parallel and horizontal to the brood nest in the tree" in your above post as part of the success. How important is this? I ask because I was planning to mount my hive bracket to the tree above the entrance and then use 6" duct pieces and a 6" duct hose to bring them up into the bottom of a 10-frame deep. So the bees will essentially have to crawl in slow upward 90 degree turn into my box.

Another question, what is the dimension of the red funnel? Can you tell me where to source one of those, are they a common item? Or how can I create something that functions similarly?

Regards,
SteveO


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

The less work the queen and the bees have to do to get into your trap the better. I would try to avoid 90 degree turns, either left/right or up/down if you can. Try to keep the adjoining tunnels as short as possible so the queen has less distance to travel from her feral brood nest to make your trap another chamber of her brood nest.

The little funnel is approximately 3/8 inch. While I have never had a queen come through the funnel, lots of people have told me that the queen did come through it for them. But also, I rarely activate the funnel, because, I don't normally do elimination trapouts any more. 

Make you a screen cone funnel, attach it to the tree, then just drill a hole in the rear or side of a old 10 frame hive and stick the screen cone in the hole so that it protrudes into the trap. If you are not doing an elimination trapout, make the exit hole about 3/4 to 1 inch opening. If you are doing an elimination, make the cone funnel about 3/8 inch, (about the size of a pencil). 

The little funnels can be purchased from most any bee supply source, (Kelly Bee, Dadant, Maxant etc.) the funnel is called a conical bee escape, and is normally used to rid honey supers of bees prior to harvesting honey.

cchoganjr


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Mr. Cleo, I'm thinking of doing a trapout on a cedar tree. The tree is in the yard of a vacant house and the maintenance guy wants them gone. It would end up being an elimination trapout. Being as my woodworking skills and equipment aren't that great what I'm thinking about doing is replacing the wooden tunnel with a piece of 2-1/2" pvc pipe spray-painted black and cutting a round hole in a hive box for it to pass through. Do you think the bees will take to the pvc pipe "ok"? It will be their only entrance so I figure they'll make do with it but I wonder if the queen will be ok with it...??? Later I plan on taking a pvc fitting and attaching a #8 funnel to it...when the time comes I can push it on the end of the pvc pipe and finish the trapout. Here's some photos...




























Btw, were you in the military....Airborne, maybe?

Thanks,
Ed


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Yes PVC will work. Most observation hives use PVC pipes for the bees to go outside and back in.

The queen will be fine with a PVC pipe. The only reason I used wood tunnels in the design is, wood is easy to drill a hole and fit the conical bee escape in, and, wood is easy to attach to a tree or house wall. It is a little more difficult to attach PVC. steel pipe, dryer hose etc.,

And yes, I was in the Army. I commanded D 2/501st Infantry, 101st Airborne Division in Vietnam 1968. There is a lot of info on the net about me and Vietnam. Google, Cleo Hogan Vietnam, if you want to read it. I was disability retired in 1978 after a bout with malignant Melanoma. I spent almost a year in Walter Reed Hospital, (March 1977 to January 1978). I have been cancer free for 36 years now.

cchoganjr


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> And yes, I was in the Army. I commanded D 2/501st Infantry, 101st Airborne Division in Vietnam 1968. There is a lot of info on the net about me and Vietnam. Google, Cleo Hogan Vietnam, if you want to read it. I was disability retired in 1978 after a bout with malignant Melanoma. I spent almost a year in Walter Reed Hospital, (March 1977 to January 1978). I have been cancer free for 36 years now.
> 
> cchoganjr


From this Ol' Cavalry Scout & Iraq Combat Vet, I have much respect for you Nam guys.
I admire the strength and courage of Vietnam vets. To me, those soldiers in the jungle are my heroes.
During our battles in Iraq, we had every imaginable asset in terms of weapons at our disposal. We had the support of the country, our government. Nobody spit on us, called us baby killers, murderers or hurled unimaginable insults at us when we got off the plane.
Vietnam Veterans were called, served and survived & died under nearly impossible circumstances.
You guys paved the way in making my home coming easier and I wholeheartedly want Thank You Cleo.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

A hand salute to you Mr. Hogan, Sir. Thank you so very much for the service to our country. I was just a pre-teen that sat transfixed to the black-and-white tv watching the news reels on the evening news...ya'll were men of steel to this kid, but many of you were kids yourselves fighting with both hands tied behind your backs. Again, from my heart, I thank you and others like you....much gratitude to all you patriots of the USA.

Well said, scorpionmain, and thank you for your service...it was not boyscout camp where you were at...the lead was just as poisonous as Vietnam...your IEDs were Viet vets bouncing bettys and punji sticks. There is no "good" war to experience. Thank you, soldier!

God bless America,
Ed


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Mr. Hogan, thanks for the feedback on the pvc. I'll keep you posted on how it works out.

...btw, congratulations on those 36 years!!!

Ed


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## steveo (Jul 8, 2014)

Here is the tree once I got all the brush cleared away:







Here is their entrance:







Here is my trap door in place:







After adding the black plastic:







I used a staple gun to attach the black plastic and had to cram some steel wool into slots in the bark to get the bees to focus on the right opening:


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## steveo (Jul 8, 2014)

When I arrived today they were nicely focused on my new door:







Here is the attachment to their new home:







10 frame deep in place:







Tons of upset bees flying, but saw them fanning their new entrance so hopefully things calmed down after I left:








What should I do next? Any feedback is much appreciated...


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

You might want to shade the metal connector, or wrap some insulation and duct tape around it. I wonder if it might get hot. Not sure of your heat there.

Looks really good. Good luck.

cchoganjr


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Steveo, looks like you and the bees are making progress with the trapout. Nice, neat setup. :thumbsup:

Ed


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## steveo (Jul 8, 2014)

Intheswamp said:


> Steveo, looks like you and the bees are making progress with the trapout. Nice, neat setup. :thumbsup:
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed!


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## steveo (Jul 8, 2014)

The bees have been challenging all of the edges of the black plastic since I added the deep so I have been responding with more steel wool, staples and duct tape.







Is this a battle I will eventually win? Any suggestions to best shore up these edges?
Inside the deep I found a fair number of bees on the foundation but they haven't started adding any wax at all. Also saw about 20% drones on the frames, some being attacked by the ladies. How long does it usually take before they will start to draw comb? 







Thanks in advance for your help, comments and advice!


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## steveo (Jul 8, 2014)

Thanks for the good advice Mr. Hogan. I added some insulation to make sure the tunnel wasn't too hot for them.



Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> You might want to shade the metal connector, or wrap some insulation and duct tape around it. I wonder if it might get hot. Not sure of your heat there.
> 
> Looks really good. Good luck.
> 
> cchoganjr


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