# WeevilCide



## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

My son plays golf with a rather large commercial guy. Seems like when the two of them are not working their bees they are off playing golf. Well today this guy told my son he was set up to use WeevilCide - in an effort to combat all the Moth and beetle problems that we have when we store comb. So I did a little research, as my son seemed to like the idea, and the best I can tell it sounds like phosphine gas (PH3) - now that stuff is pretty deadly if I remember correctly. I told my son that I wondered if any self respecting bee would go near a comb (in the spring) treated in that. He seems to think that if this other guy is using it then it must be OK.... I mean the guy works 3500 hives... thats pretty big around here. 

So I am asking if any of you folks have experience and or opinions about treating your comb with this stuff when placing it into storage?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No real idea. But I think that this gas is a heavier than air sorta gas. And it would probably be used in a contained space. I also imagine that it would be disapated by next summer or that one would have to air out the supers before using them.

Whatever the case, I bet one has to have Pesticide Applicators Certification to buy the stuff. I sure hope everyone knows what they are doing and follow proper handling techniques. Pesticides can be very dangerous if handled improperly.

Good luck and I hope no one gets hurt.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Yea - you definitely have to have certification to buy the stuff. Sounds to me like a special room is needed too... kinda like a gas chamber.

Just curious that I have never heard of anyone using the stuff on comb.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A storage container would probably do the job.


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

I wouldn't eat any honey coming from that guys hives thats for sure.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why not? Fear of residue?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

google phosphine and then look for the EPA site. Scroll down to the "approved for nonfood-nonfeed". That says it all.

Roland


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I've been doing a little more reading about it and it sounds like one of its primary uses is as a fumigant for stored commodities like grains.... food right?


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## Beee Farmer (Aug 11, 2008)

hpm08161947 said:


> I've been doing a little more reading about it and it sounds like one of its primary uses is as a fumigant for stored commodities like grains.... food right?


http://www.researchfumigation.com/msds/WEEVIL-CID-APPLICATOR-MANUAL.pdf


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

According to wikipedia article it doesn't leave residues on the product.

I sure hope the guy that is misusing this product otherwise knows what he is doing and isn't lacidaisical about following saftey procedures. And unless he has proper storage facilities for doing the treatment for a long enuf time, he is probably wasting his time and money.

Does he have enuf storage containers to store his supers in? How does he store supers when they aren't on his hives?

Tell your son to read up on this stuff and becareful. Highly explosive, according to what I read. Not to mention toxic.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

using this WeevilCide in honey supers sounds like off label and illegial use. I would hate to be caught using it for the wrong reasons


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Why not? Fear of residue?


look up a msds safety sheet on it. 
Aluminum phosphide + Water = Phosphine gas + Aluminum hydroxide + heat AlP + 3H20 = PH3 + Al(OH)3 + heat
Which means its highly volitile. You can't transport more than 40 pounds of it at any given time. It is that dangerous. IF air hits it, it will react. It pulls the water from the air and reacts. SHoot you can be using it properly in your application and it can catch fire just from the water reaction. If that happens by by everything in the room. PLUS you do NOT use water to put it out either. 

It is used primarily in grain bins to kill insects but these are dry grains. Aluminum phosphate reacts to water. Honey does have water in it. You put any of your frames into a storage area with it, it will absorb the water from the honey and ignite. They haven't tested it for use on combs or any hive products so its a unknown. Its not appproved for use in that manner so therefore it is illegal to use. 

We have no idea what it will do to the comb. OH BTW it is highly toxic. I think inhalation is 192ppm will kill you. 11mg/kg will kill you. thats less than 2 cc's of the stuff. 5000mg/kg if it gets on your skin will kill you. Its very bad bad bad stuff 
I have a pesticide applicators license. It is used in preparation of tomato beds in some areas, where it kills off any insect and their eggs in the soil.


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

hpm08161947 said:


> I've been doing a little more reading about it and it sounds like one of its primary uses is as a fumigant for stored commodities like grains.... food right?


Oops it does look like epa is allowing it to use on foodstuffs. Not a good thing.
BUT NOTICE it is not used on anything that has liquid in it or water in it. The comb will have a higher moisture content than any grain will. And it is not approved for use on honey products. That means its illegal to do.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

wolfpenfarm said:


> BUT NOTICE it is not used on anything that has liquid in it or water in it. The comb will have a higher moisture content than any grain will.


As I understand it the Aluminum phosphide + water reaction actually occurs in an external chamber with the resulting phosphine gas blown into the room (looks like a grain bin) where the comb is placed. After a certain exposure time - fans come on and blow the gas out. I suppose this is the same way stored grains are treated.

I'm sure this is nothing that the little guy would want to mess with, but this guy is dealing with 100,000 + frames... like he said - Not enough room in the freezer... sounds like if we participated we would take our comb over there and place them in the grain bin with his. Supposedly no residue after 48 hours.


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## Bob Nelson (Feb 10, 2005)

Aluminum phosphide is labeled for beehive use per Section 21.9 on page 18 of the applicators maunal:

http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld2RS006.pdf

It is restricted use and requires Commercial Pesticide Applicator certification for use. It is deadly and has strict guidelines including but not limited to posting structures, notifying local authorities, ventilation, etc.

Correct dosage is important as it is explosive at levels above therapeutic fumigation levels. You really need to know what you are doing when applying aluminum phosphide.

So far as food safety it is not labeled for use on honey in comb for human consumption. Honey in treated comb can be used for bee feed. It reacts with moisture in air and not that in honey. The reaction creates the toxic phosphine gas which is an inhalation hazard. The ingestion hazard lies with the solid aluminum phosphide.

At a recent HAZMAT refresher class I learned of a tragic death from phospine gas. A building at a feedlot was being fumigated. It was locked and labeled per guidelines. A young man employed by the feedlot was intoxicated and put his car in the ditch a mile or two from the feedlot. He walked there and had a key to get in as he was an employee. In the dark and his intoxicated state he did not see the signage and went inside. 

As a hazardous materials technician I have a great deal of respect for this substance. Any notion of use by unauthorized people should be avoided. 

For more info on application:

http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/epublic/live/ec2508/build/ec2508.pdf


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

> He seems to think that if this other guy is using it then it must be OK.... I mean the guy works 3500 hives.

It's guys like these that make me thankful I can eat honey I produce myself.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Phosphine isn't hard to get, even though you have to have the pesticide applicators license for buildings and bins. (A regular pesticide applicators license for spraying fields isn't the right certification, but they will still usually sell you phosphine if you have that cert. - especially if they know you.)

Phosphine is also used as a rodenticide for burrowing rodents. On the farm, we used PhosFume for groundhogs. Shove a hose down their hole, collapse the hole entrance on the hose, and drop 10 pellets down the hose. Then pour a few cups of water down the hose. If it had been really dry, we would have 50% digouts. If we used PhosFume after a rain when the soil had more moisture, I think it was about 5% of the holes would be reopened.

The stuff is super nasty to work with. Even when working around it in the open air, the smell would make you sick if you worked with it very long. Considering how nasty it was to work with, I was surprised that you could use it on grains...but the paperwork said it was safe to use on grains. It evaporated quickly and left no residue.


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

You know i hear that it supposedly leaves no residue, but who in their right mind actually trusts the data on it. I know that most chems will break down into inert ingredients and not be harmful but that does take time. But i for one am not impressed with the epa at all. Their more concerned with political favors asked of them.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

If I remember correctly this gas can be a byproduct
of welding phosphate anti rust treated metal. *Nasty!!*

Why use a deadly gas (cyanide anyone) on honeycomb??
Beats me. There are biological organic rated methods.


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## Galaxy (Jun 10, 2007)

Sundance said:


> Why use a deadly gas (cyanide anyone) on honeycomb??


Good question! Especially when one remembers that phosphine gas was a primary gas used in gas warfare during WW I. It's nasty stuff.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wolfpenfarm said:


> You know i hear that it supposedly leaves no residue, but who in their right mind actually trusts the data on it. I know that most chems will break down into inert ingredients and not be harmful but that does take time. But i for one am not impressed with the epa at all. Their more concerned with political favors asked of them.


Are you proposing to stop eating anything that this gas is used on? Like wheat and other grains? I bet you eat food that this gas has been used on every day.


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## wolfpenfarm (Jan 13, 2009)

Actually i don't think that is true. they do not use it here, where we grow wheat. farmer takes it to the coop sells it and it is thrown into storage. they do not use phosphene gas on it whatsoever. Now on seed wheat they might. But they also coat the seed wheat with something. 

I suspect if it is used at any point it is used when put into barges for transport overseas.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_and it is thrown into storage. they do not use phosphene gas on it whatsoever. _

Phosphine is used on grains that are in bins in storage. It's naive to think that it's not used on grain bins. How do you think the coop deals with weevils or other insect infestations?

Of the 3 fumigants that are allowed to be used for stored grain, (phosphine, chloropicrin, and methyl bromide) phosphine is the predominant fumigant used today.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Don't tell wolfpenfarm that Countryboy, he's already a vegetarian and now all he'll have to eat are fruits, nuts and veggies. But only those he grows himself, because all of those foods are produced w/ loads of chemicals too.


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## ga.beeman (Mar 29, 2009)

the use of it in grain bins is very common across the county. It is used on wax combs in storage by alot of beekeepers across the country and is legal as long as you have the license and it doesnt leave residue in the comb. it only fumagates for a few days and you have to do it over in a few weeks. Once cold weather sets in you dont have to fumagate until warm weather .


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I see that this has turned into one of those philosophical things - "Chem vs Antichem".... but whatever! I do know that corn that is placed in storage in this area is fumigated by a variety of agents... Methyl Bromide.... phosphine, I don't understand how they can use nothing in Kansas, must be a pest free zone. I also find it interesting that Ga.beeman has commented that a number of commercial bee men use it on stored comb. Guess it may be one of those things like "Avatraz" that you just don't come out and announce... else the "Antichems" will be all over you.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I believe it was Phosgene that was used in WWII, and can be produced by the action of UV(associated with arc welding) on chlorinated hydrocarbons, such as those found in vapor degeasers and non-flammable metal cleaning solvents.

Roland


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Roland said:


> I believe it was Phosgene that was used in WWII,
> 
> Roland


I don't think phosgene and phosphine are the same.... phosphene is some kind of Chlorine-phosphorus compound, whereas phosphine is PH3....


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

That is my point, not the same, Both are on Wikipedia. I believe phosgene was made by substitution chlorination of formaldehyde. The structure I thought was carbon, with a double bond to an oxygen, and two chlorines. NO phosphorous like phosphene.

Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

hpm08161947 said:


> I also find it interesting that Ga.beeman has commented that a number of commercial bee men use it on stored comb.


I never heard of anyone doing this until this Thread was started and I do know quite a few commercial outfits of size. Maybe it's something that is done by comm. beekeepers in states south of VA and MD.


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## ga.beeman (Mar 29, 2009)

you can go back to the first page and look at the link that beeefarmer posted and go down several pages and look at #12. It plainly states that it can be used on comb. In the south the wax moth can cause alot of damaged in a small amount of time. You have to treat them with something. I think it is alot safer then using the moth crystals because they do leave residue in the comb. where as this doesnt but you do have to be carefull when using it. I dont know how much of a problem the wax moth is up north.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Less of a problem here. Here we can stack supers on pallets and store them outside in the cold. Mice cause us more damage than moths do. 

Sometimes if I leave a pallet of deeps, which had brood in them, under cover too long, wax moth can be a problem.

Standing deeps on end often discourages wax moth. They don't like the light and air circulation. But I doubt that would work down south in Dixie.


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## ga.beeman (Mar 29, 2009)

i stack mine up and leave a two inch gap on each end to let light and air flow and it works good on honey supers. But the ones that have had brood raised in them i have to watch alot closer because they like them alot better.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

lol herb. listening to wayne cannaday is dangerous. He has alot of hives. and alot of money. But he also cuts alot of corners. And oh my god, the stories about his father. With a grain of salt... or highly reactive poison in this case lol. 

Sundance, do you have a bio solution of beetles? As far as I could tell that 'magic army worm powder' is OK for moth, but its faster and more efficeint to freeze to kill, and dosent stop the beetle larvae. Not to mention I have to spray frame by frame. It isn't commercially viable.


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