# Kelly's to make 1-1/4" wide frames?



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

First off let me say that I'm not in any way affiliated with Kelly's. (other than being a customer) I e-mailed them today asking if they'd consider making 1-1/4 wide frames and they said that they would consider it if there was enough positive feedback. I know that many of you cut your frames down to 1-1/4 wide. 
So the first question is why cut them down? The best reason that I have found is that the spacing is more what they'd naturally draw worker cell to. It will allow for 11 frames in a 10 frame box or 9 frames in a 8 frame box. I recently read a post that Michael bush linked his site to that speaks much better than I would / can to reasons for having the frames 1-1/4" instead of 1-3/8". Here's the link to his site. . . 
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#framespacing

So here's the thing. Kelly's is open to considering making them and may ask people in their montly news letter in February to see if people are interested. I thought I'd try to help them with it. (I'd like them to sell them so I don't have to cut them down) What I'd encourage Kelly's to do is to cut the top bars down 1/16" on each side and the end bars also 1/16 on each side so that the end result is the bee space will be the same as it is now and the frames would be 1-1/4" on center. Would you all be interested in this? Do you see any problems with this? Would you be willing to e-mail them or post here and let us know? If you'd like to e-mail Jane there at Kelly's and give her a little feed back I'd appreciate it. Her e-mail is [email protected] Perhaps put "frame spacing" or "1-1/4 frames" in the subject box or something like that. 
Some things to know is they may put some pertinent info in the Feb. news letter (It's free and comes out about every month) and unfortunately I don't get anything from doing this other than the hope of being able to buy 1-1/4" wide frames that I want.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

It would be nice if they would make 1-1/4 frames. Would be nicer still if they would use the correct measurements so they fit correctly and don't bow and warp.

DarJones


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

It might be nice if they offered their "foundationless" frames with 1/8" narrower Top Bars and 1-1/4" wide End Bars and solid Bottom Bars.

If the Top Bar were 1/8" narrower, and the End Bars 1-1/4" wide, the Medium F-style frames 6-1/4" x 17-5/8", would be just what I'm looking for.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

DarJones,
What would those dimensions be? 
Joseph, That's what I was thinking also. However in thinking about it there would be the same benefit for those using foundation also. I'm using foundationless also. My question for anyone that has cut their frames down would be how do the top bars work if they're 1/8" narrower? I understand that the end bars ought to be fine, but with the weight all being born by the top bar I am curious. I think that the bee space currently is 3/8" between the top bars so if taking 1/8" off is too much I think they could only take 1/16" off and have 5/16 which should be totally fine also. 1/4" to me seems to be a bit too small, but MB says that he hasn't had a noticable problem, but that he would rather have a bit more space.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

delber,
I have done this with many frames which I've also cut down the End Bars to 1-1/4" wide. It works very well (even 1/4" is a good bee space), I have seen no additional issues with the narrower Top Bars. I have seen the occasional Top Bar develop a slight bow, but none of the narrower Top Bars has done so, yet - so I don't expect that it increases the chances of bowing. I've used many wooden frames from several different suppliers, including Walter T. Kelley, and my experience is that Kelley frames have been about the best quality I've seen, so if frames with these dimensions were produced by Kelley's I'd expect they would be of similar quality to all their other frames and products.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The crucial changes to get narrow frames to work include:

The top bar should be cut at 7/8 of an inch wide instead of 1 inch. This causes no other problems. The reason for cutting it to 7/8 is so that you can uncap the frames if you need to extract honey from them and so that you get a bee space between the frames. This is also the optimum width to prevent burr comb.

The end bars can cause problems if they are cut to 1-1/4 inches. Their mechanical strength is lowered just enough to cause them to bow when they are wired for foundation. This can be avoided by cutting the end bars 3/8 of an inch thick. This is a critical change, I have culled a lot of frames over the years because the 5/16 inch thick end bars bowed. Once I figured out that they needed to be thicker, my frames have stood up to 25 years of use and abuse without bowing.

The way Kelley frames are cut today has the cut in the top bar where the foundation mounts made to exactly the center of the frame. This is the correct way to cut. When I started making my own frames, I made the mistake of cutting exactly to the center of the top bar which of course makes the foundation offset just about 3/64 of an inch from where it should be. This turned out to be a critical measurement because the foundation is offset just enough to make the bees burr comb the top bars together. Again, Kelley does not have to do anything different, their frames are already cut correctly.

I made a change in the length of the end bars because they are currently cut in such a way that there is 1/2 inch between the frames when you stack supers on them. If you measure the end bars, you will find they are exactly 9-1/8 inches long. Brood chambers are cut to be exactly 9-19/32 inches deep. If you check the difference, you will find that it works out to almost exactly 1/2 inch which is of course much wider than the bees will accept as a bee space. I had to make a change in the top bar when I lengthened the end bar because standard foundation does not quite fit the frame. The change was to cut the notch in the top bar where the foundation mounts 1/8 inch shallower than Kelley cuts them. This has some side effects such as that you can't leave the wedge attached to the top bar for future use, it is too thin to hold foundation.

Other than the above, there are some tweaks I made in the way end bars slot onto top bars but this was done because of the mechanics of cutting the frames, not because any changes were needed.

DarJones


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

DarJones,

I don't doubt that thicker End Bars, when cut down to 1-1/4" width, are important with deep frames, and this is also likely helpful with medium depth frames, but isn't necessarily essential with the mediums. Though I find the idea interesting and I plan to try some of my medium frames with the 3/8" thick 1-1/4" wide End Bars to see if there is a benefit.

I like horizontally wiring all my non-plastic frames, in our heat I find it very helpful in keeping combs straight and in their frames, instead of dropping out on the ground in chunks.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Ok Guys one more question. . . (and everyone else too) If Kelly's did sell them already at 1-1/4" wide would you buy them? What if they also widened the end bars to 3/8"?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I'd buy them in medium depth size.

BTW, I think you mean thicken the 1-1/4" wide End Bars to 3/8".


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I would buy 1 1/4" end bar medium foundationless frames from Kelley or anyone else who decides to make them.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I asked them before but they thought it was too much setup to do it. I would also like to see a narrower top bar, as mentioned, but I'd settle for narrow end bars. Either would save me a lot of work...


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## oblib (Oct 28, 2011)

Yup I would buy em in mediums from whoever decides to sell them


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## French Lick Apiaries (Nov 11, 2011)

delber said:


> What I'd encourage Kelly's to do is to cut the top bars down 1/16" on each side and the end bars also 1/16 on each side so that the end result is the bee space will be the same as it is now and the frames would be 1-1/4" on center.


Sure, I would buy them in mediums tomorrow.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Thanks guys for your feedback. I e-mailed again today and they're already working on it for the Feb. news letter. My hope is that there's enough that want the 1-1/4 wide that they'll go for it and offer it. I think it would be great!!! I have done a lot more searching here and there's a ton of folks that have said in other places that they'd like someone to make them. If you haven't posted here yet or e-mailed Kellys please do. I hope with enough feedback they'll do it.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Well guys I thought I'd follow up and let you all know that Kelly's has put the article in their Febuary Newsletter. You can view it here http://app.newpanda.com/public/sharedimages/4396/1234979276/Documents/feb2012large.pdf Thank-you Michael Bush for allowing me to use your info!!! I GREATLY appreciate it. If you all would be interested, please do contact them letting them know you'd be interested in the 1-1/4" frames. ([email protected]) Let me know what you think of the article. 
Thanks


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I emailed the editor and told him/her I was interested.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I sent an email also, expressing my interest.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

:update:

I just got word from Kelly's and they now have deep end bars at 1-1/4" wide. I know that there are several on here that want mediums and I have been told that they'll working on that. I'll copy the message that I got from them. . . 

"Thanks for asking about the frames, I'm told "We now have the 1.25” narrow end bars for deep frames sold in packs of 100 – we are working on the medium. Due to the additional labor required we are not sure we will carry these permanently. Call the 800-233-2899 and request the narrow frames 82-Thin if you would like these in deep frames."​
Personally I do hope they continue to offer these frames but we'll have to see how things go. For now I have a call to make. . .


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## emesine (Dec 20, 2012)

I just ordered 180 medium, foundationless, 1 1/4 assembled frames from Kelley's. I had to ask for them (I didn't see anything on the website about narrow frames.) However, they were happy to take the order and promised to send them out this week.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

They accidentally shipped me 400 regular medium end bars. I finally decided to make my own narrow end bars instead of using Kelley's. I will be thinning down the top bars as well...


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Did you contact them about the mistake beecurious? I haven't known of them to not make a mistake right when they know about it. 

I haven't confirmed this but I have also heard that they didn't make the top bars different also which will cause issues with beespace if all they did is thin down the end bars. I also will be cutting them down also. 1/32" on each side works well. I just ripped them on the table saw, however you can also rout them after they're assembled using the fence and a straight bit. I haven't tried it yet with the router, but I may because I think it may be safer and easier / quicker. If anyone has recieved anyof the frames from Kelly's please report it here so we all can know. Thank-you. (I wanted to order some,but due to financial reasons and "needs vs. wants" I haven't yet. Perhaps in the spring or after tax return we'll have to see.)


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

delber said:


> Did you contact them about the mistake beecurious? I haven't known of them to not make a mistake right when they know about it.
> 
> I haven't confirmed this but I have also heard that they didn't make the top bars different also which will cause issues with beespace if all they did is thin down the end bars.


Kelley's was very willing to exchange the end bars. 

I decided that I would make my own and thin down the lower portion of the end bars. I may also "vee" one side of the end bars as well (Kelley's doesn't make them that way any longer). And of course thinning down the top bars will be an improvement as well. 

21¢ per endbar is a little pricey. IMO


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## emesine (Dec 20, 2012)

I received my foundationless, narrow frame (1 1/4), medium frames from Kelley. 9 frames fit easily in my 8 frame box. The frames are well constructed, strong, and square. My only complaint is that the space between the frames is uneven when the frames are pushed together. The end bars have been planed down. Some are a bit too wide still, some are perfect, and some are planed down practically to the top bar. However, this is not a big deal at all. I adjust the spacing to my liking as I put them in the hive body. 

I'd buy them again, and I'd recommend them to anyone who wants narrow foundationless frames. I'll upload a picture later.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

I didn't go back on this thread and look, but I do remember reading that someone on here planes down their end bars and once they're assembled he / she drilled 3 1/2" holes inbetween two of the frames. They talked about drilling one hole inside of the end bars perhaps 1" or so, and the third in the center of the frames. Somehow you'll need to make sure there's enough beespace inbetween the two top bars. This can be done on a router, or using a drill bit like this. I do look forward to seeing your pictures. Thanks for the update!!!


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## emesine (Dec 20, 2012)

OK, there should be a picture attached. This image is 9 1 1/4 frames in an 8 frame medium box. I pushed all the frames together in the middle of the box. I did some minimal arrangement of the frames to get good space between the top bars. The frames are pushed together touching each other.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I think Kelley's 1 1/4" end bars are somewhat of a help to those who want to get an extra frame in their brood boxes, but the real solution which isn't available yet, is a complete manufactured narrow frame with all the bee spaces correct. Planing down the end bars 1/16" on each side gives you a thinner piece of wood on each side of the top bar which takes away some of the strength of that joint I would think. I have been wanting to convert all my brood frames to narrow frames (have not done any yet) and since I build all my own equipment anyway (except frames) I think I will try turning out some narrow frames and see what kind of quality I can get myself to produce, maybe if it goes well I can start selling them. John


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