# Frames & Foundations



## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

And if you like the Pierco foundations , what color if better white are black ?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Hey there!

You and I must think the same. I just posted a simular post either in the beekeeping 101 or general beekeeping forum. Check it out. You might need to look a little for it, but it is there.

I am going to go with all Pierco frames next year because I do not have time to put them together and when I talked to some commercial beekeepers, they said that "everyone" is using plastic. 

I bought some for my nuc the other day and will start using them next year. A lot of people say that they like the black ones and that the bees tend to take to the black ones quicker. 

They are coated with wax and I think I will also spray them with sugar syrup too.

Hope this helps.


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## greenbeekeeping (Feb 13, 2003)

Hi there. I use wood frames with black pierco foundation. The balck seems to get drawn out better than the white that we tried this year. I was told that some of the plastic frames are a little bit smaller than the wood ones which leads to more burr comb which can be a hassle when trying to minipulate the hive. So I have been staying away from plastic frames.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

I have used the Pierco frames and I do not like them for the following reasons. 1) They flex. 2) They dont work well with my McCord frame grip. 3) The bees take to them slowly and they may build comb away from the plastic foundation. 4) If you try to put 10 frames into a hive it can be a tight fit. 5) If you mix plastic and wax foundation frames they weigh different amount so you must match opposite frames when extracting. 

You might think plastic foundation will be immune to wax moths, but trust me it isnt. Spend some time and construct a frame making, wax foundation and wiring jigs. Once you have these jigs made it will speed making frames. 

Order frames in quantity of 100. You will use that many by the end of the second year. Bees are addictive!

So much for my 2 cents!


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

have yall tryed the support clips for the wood frames and wax foundations, or do you just use a wiring jig and run wire, if you have tryed the support clips, how did they work ?


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## greenbeekeeping (Feb 13, 2003)

The support clips that you are talking about are more for foundation like duragilt that has a thin layer of plastic in the middle that gives the foundation some support. The Crimp wired foundation you have to wire the frames up. Most of my equipment has crimp wired foundation in it but I switched to the pierco this year and love it. It is alot faster. That and I really don't like putting all those eyelets in the frames. I plan on putting together 2000-3000 deep frames this fall. That would be 16000 - 24000 eylets.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

I have not used the end clips. As for using eyelets I do and I dont use them. I only use them when my 10 year old needs money. I pay him 1 ½ cent per eyelet. I do use an electric Embedder similar to what Walter T Kelly sells for a small fortune. Went to a thrift store and made it for $1.95!

As for inserting eyelets the worst part is picking them up one at a time. When I first started work the company I worked for had an eyelet style stapler made by Bates Manufacturing. You just filled the reserve with loose eyelets and it fed them into the press. This is what they look like: http://debarth-fics.com/images/batesEyeletter.jpg 
If I could find one cheap enough I would modify it to do frames.

As for making 2,000 to 3,000 frames, what else are you going to do this winter?


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

ok thank guys,looks like im going to go with wooden frames and black pierco foundations , sounds like thats the ticket , thank again!! any more info on frames and foundations is appreciated.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

chef Isaac, i found that post you wrote and looks like alot on your post like the black pierco foundations too.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Do yall use the black pierco foundation for brood and honey supers ????????? (the guys that use the black)


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## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

Magnet Man, Tell us how you made your electric embedder.


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## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

Magnet Man, Tell us how you made your electric embedder.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Pictures are worth a thousand words. I won't get a chance to take them for a day or two. But I will give details of what you want to look for at the thrift store.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

has anyone tried the end clips and if so how good do they work, i was just wondering because they seem faster and easier on pierco foundations than running wire on wax foundation.


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## greenbeekeeping (Feb 13, 2003)

Hi there. I use black for brood chambers and honey supers. You don't need clips for Pierco it is a really heavy plastic.


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## Pugs (Jul 15, 2004)

Hey Russ,

I have a booklet published by University Of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign written by Elbert R. Jaycox published in 1976 titled "Beekeeping in the Midwest". It has diagrams of an embedder and embedding board. It says "The embedder heats the wire by briefly short-circuiting a 12 volt electrical current. ... The electrical embedder consists of a transformer, used to reduce house current to 12 volts, whose output wires are connected to copper contacts at either end of a 3/4-inch-square piece of wood. There is only one critical dimension in making such an embedder. The copper contacts must be spaced so that their centers are 6 inches part for full depth frames and approximately 2 inches apart for shallow frames. These contacts are pressed against the end portions of the wire that cross one end bar at right angles to it. All the wire in the frame is heated at once when electrical contact is made."

It is a nice little booklet. Well worth the 4 bucks I paid for it.

Pugs


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

This is what an electric embedder looks like. http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=169 Yes they want $24 for it and $33 for the transformer!

My embedder looks very similar with some modifications. Here are the instructions on how to make one.

1) Go to the thrift store and buy a one of the many external power supplies to old computers or large printers. You are looking for one that has a minimum 2 amp rating. Small wall warts will not work. You are looking for something heavy! Heavy means a big transformer inside which means more amperage. These units are usually a black box with two power cords coming out of them. One to the wall and the other to the computer or printer. These power supplies usually have a fuse inside so you will have to break them open to bypass the fuse. If you cannt find one at the thrift store, visit http://www.jameco.com . They have suitable power transforms for around $15.

2) Next purchase a large can of coffee. You will need the lid. Take the lid and cut 7 1 by 2.5 rectangles. Now bend 5 of them to look like the letter L. 

3) Staple or nail the 5 L shaped strips to the bottom of a top bar. One on each end and the other 3 evenly spaced in between. L number 1 and 5 are on the ends and 2, 3, and 4 are in the middle of the top bar.

4) Make a crude switch out of the other two pieces of metal on top of the bar. Attach one strip flat. Attach the second strip so when it lays flat it will contact the first strip. Bend the second strip up so there is no contact. Press this strip down with your index finger when you want to close the circuit. 

5) Run a wire from L 1 to one part of the switch. Attach the other part of the switch to the transformer and finally attach L 5 to the transformer. 

Now this is how you use it.

Place your pre-wired frame with foundation on top of a board that fits inside of the frame. This board will support the foundations when you press on it. The foundation lays flat against the board with the wire above it. Now take your embedder and press the wire down against the foundation with the 5 Ls. Close the switch. You will feel a slight vibration and may hear a hum. Let go of the switch after 1 second. Let the wire and wax cool 2 seconds and remove your embedder. Go to the next wire and so on. 

You will need to experiment with technique. I usually do a series of short quarter second pulses. 

It wont look pretty but it works 


[This message has been edited by magnet-man (edited August 22, 2004).]


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2004)

Everyone has their own opinions as you will see over and over again on this site.

Personally I like the 1-piece Pierco... My bees draw it out like champs. Never had any problem... I prefer the black. The bees seemed to draw it quicker and I can see the eggs easier.

As far as frames for my honey supers. I have only used Ritecell (Mann Lake) and love them....

I will never buy another wooden frame.....I would rather spend my time doing other bee related projects than building frames when you don't need too.

Dan

[This message has been edited by dtwilliamson (edited August 23, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by dtwilliamson (edited August 23, 2004).]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Since I'm into natural sized cell for Varroa control and general health of my bees, I mostly use foundationless frames. I either cut a "V" on the bottom of an ungrooved top bar, or I add a piece of wood to it for a comb guide (See Lanstroth's Hive and the Honey Bee available as a reprint from www.amazon.com and I'm sure others).

Another method I use is a starter strip, but I admit I prefer the foundationless.

Some people really believe in the three "W"s.

Wood Wire and Wax.

The bees are certainly more willing and enthusiastic about drawing wax than plastic and more enthusiastic about drawing thei own come without any foundation than they are about wax foundation.

I also use a lot of wax coated PermaComb.

If I wasn't doing small cell, I'd do all PermaComb. Fully drawn plastic comb. The wax moths can't touch it, and I don't believe the SHB would do well in it. I would love to hear from anyone using it in SHB country.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

And I think you MB for the idea to use foundationless frames as I have grown to call them. They work great. One hive was not given proper attention an bent the ends of each comb onto the next frame. but it was easy to correct by cutting the ends out of each frame and placing them between fully drawn frames of another box. The rite-cell foundation from Mann lake was a mess. the bees built the comb off the face of the foundation or cross combed it. I have several frames that have never been drawn properly after 1 1/2 years of use and scraping them back down. I did recoat them with melted wax and a paint brush(new). It did help but a few frames are still not drawn. This has really turned me against the plastic. But I may have to try it again with another type of plastic foundation.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The rite-cell foundation from Mann lake was a mess. the bees built the comb off the face of the foundation or cross combed it.

To be fair I've seen them mess up every kind of foundation, foundationless and starter strips except maybe the PermaComb. I've seen them all cross combed one time or the other. But they seem more inclined to do it on plastic than wax.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2004)

I have had them cross comb it and build it out from the face of the plastic. In almost every case I had not first coated it with sugar syrup. Seems to be the key with plastic. Of course there are never any guarantees.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

is there a waay to extract foundation less frames?


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

whats does coating plastic foundation with sugar syrup do? how do the bees react from us coating them or not coating them with syrup???


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I dont think sugar coating plastic is going to make any difference if the fundamental requirements arent present for drawing comb-that is a strong hive with an abundance of incoming nectar and the need for more storage space.I found the Pierco was easy to get drawn if the above was met,just like regular wax foundation.The BIG advantage of the Pierco(besides labor saved) is if conditions turn out to be 'not just right' the Pierco is still intact,unlike wax which will often have warped out of the frame if neglected by the bees.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

so next year when i get my 3 packages of bees , when i install them in there new hive with pierco foundation would it be smart to spray sugar syrup on the foundations before i install the bees ?


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

so next year when i get my 3 packages of bees , when i install them in there new hive with pierco foundation would it be smart to spray sugar syrup on the foundations before i install the bees ?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would spray it. The bees licking it off will make the wax smell better and be more accepted and the syrup will do the package some good.







It's a win/win.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2004)

I just take my frames and pour sugar syrup over them before I put them on the hive. The bees get all over the frames taking off the sugar syrup. I don't know why it works. I guess they get used to the plastic while they are working it over. There was a sheet of paper included with the box recommending the sugar syrup whenever I have purchased plastic frames. Sometimes I have put the frames in without first coating them (because I didn't have time) and occasionally those frames would get cross combed. Sometimes they drew them out fine. I rarely have had a problem when I have coated them with sugar syrup.

As a caveat this is my first year using plastic so I don't have a long term history. However, between my two nucs started in May they have drawn out 6 deeps and 3 meds of plastic frames. I think I only had a problem with 3 frames out of the 90 they drew out.... I'll take that percentage anyday... 

Dan


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

well thanks for all the answers guys , yall help me out alot on what kind of hive equipment i will order ,,, thanks again


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I bought a lot of rite cell and then discovered what natural cell size was and now have a lot of plastic foundation I don't use because it's oversized cells.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Michael, tell me something ,(i not trying to sound like a smart butt,I've just been thinking)i know you have had sucess on the natural size cells, if all the feral bees in the wild made natural sized cells , how did the mites kill them to start with . just a question i been thinking about. I know you the man and got a answer . I just dont understand this natural cell thing. I'm sure they benifit some how. its hard to ask a question like this and not sound like a smart a**.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>tell me something... if all the feral bees in the wild made natural sized cells , how did the mites kill them to start with . just a question i been thinking about.

First, since I find feral bees all the time, I guess I think part of the answer is that you are under the mistaken impression that the feral bees died.

Second, a lot of the feral bees are recent escapees who build 5.1mm or so cell size and it requires 4.9mm to survive the mites well.

Third, I'm sure genetics plays a part in all of this and some of the feral bees did die because they didn't have the genetics to survive the mites. The ones that are left did.

>I'm sure they benifit some how.

Mostly the benefit I see is shortening capping and post capping times resulting in less varroa in the cell because they get capped a day before most of them infest the cell and they emerge two days sooner (one day shorter post capping time) which means less Varroa reporoduce before they emerge.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

I know that some feral bees survived but i think all in my area wasnt with that trait to survive the mites , i havent seen a honey bee around my place for about 10 years, thats 1 reason i would like to get some hives going around here but the main reason is that i always wanted some of my own. thanks Michael for the info!!


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

To add to MBs response, Traceal mites are not affected as much as Varroa mites with smaller cell. The traceal mites destroyed most of the wild bees before the varroa got here. Buckfast bees were bred for resistance to these mite so it tells me that some bees had the resistance and are now getting their population back up.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Well,back to the pierco frames.I just started extracting some and found that my Maxant chain uncapper just destroys the comb!It tends to do that with new combs built on wax foundation too,but not nearly as bad.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Part of it too, is the age of the comb. Brand new comb is really soft compared to comb a few weeks or months old. Maybe once it's aged it will uncap better.


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