# Introducing Virgin Queens



## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Hello all,
I am wondering if you can introduce a virgin queen to a hive _without_ a period of waiting while caged for introduction. Has anyone had experience with this? Please input. Thanks!


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I try direct release of virgins, every so often. I also regularly cage/candy introduce virgins and mated/laying queens. Though sometimes direct release of virgins does work, more are accepted successfully when I use the cage/candy release method.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Just thinking off the top of my head, I think it is risky, cause virgins have a degree of pheromones depending on her age in days. If I would do it, I would only introduce into a well fed nuc with no old bees.


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## Bizykatbird (Feb 8, 2009)

My experience this year was at the beginning of the season when my mating nucs were 1st set up, I introduced several virgins directly with no problems, but as the bee population in the nucs has grown, they won't accept them without being introduced in a cage like a mated queen.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have never had much luck introducing a virgin in a cage. She gets ignored and dies. I have had luck smoking them heavily and then running her in. I have not had any luck just running her in without the smoke.


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## Greg Lowe (Feb 3, 2012)

A couple of weeks ago, we introduced 2 virgin queens into hives via 3-hole cage. Got the same result MB described above.

These were 1-2 day old queens.

In several other hives we put their sisters onto a frame - direct release. We watched them run around a bit with no aggression shown to them. They are now mated and laying.

Last year, I direct released a virgin onto a frame like that. She grabbed the first bee she came to, stung and killed it. She repeated that with 2 more bees and then everyone agreed that it was her hive. Was quite a show.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

However, the direct release method is not without issues either. Last Friday I had to introduce about 10 virgins, so I wanted to try a combination of approaches (direct and candy). The direct release candidates were chosen as small nucs with young bees. I opened the cage the let the virgins run out. I observed the bees and how things were progressing. If acceptable I closed them up. If not I caged her and did the candy release. This was in a yard of about 30 nucs. I was midway though the job when I went to grab a caged virgin and found a marked virgin on the outside of the cages on my queen bank frame. BTW, I'm marking all virgins to better control identification. Clearly one of the virgins that was directly released had left her nuc and found the bank frame. I caged her and put her in another nuc. I've yet to go back and find the nuc with the missing queen


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Thanks guys for all the input. A lot of ideas and methods to consider; I appreciate it.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Just curious, Mike B, how do I know that the hive has been smoked heavily enough. Do I want to see bees vacating the hive, or I want to see smoke come out of every seam? Or smoke them for 1 minute non-stop?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>how do I know that the hive has been smoked heavily enough. 

Well, normally, just to work a hive, I would just do a puff in the door. So when I say "heavily" I just mean the smoke has reach the extents of the hives, not that it ran the bees out of the hive. In other words, if you're pumping it in the bottom, it is just starting to come out the top...


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Okay, the next time I'm introducing virgins, I'm going to try the smoke/run them in, technique. Definitely sounds like it's worth a try.


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## Bizykatbird (Feb 8, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> I have never had much luck introducing a virgin in a cage. She gets ignored and dies. I have had luck smoking them heavily and then running her in. I have not had any luck just running her in without the smoke.


do you run her in from the entrance or just put her in from the top? I use double mini mating nucs so the entrance is really small


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have never run her in the entrance. Too many guard bees. The top or between boxes has always been my choice...


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I recently read a study that compared the use of cages, used queen cells, and artificial queen cells in the intrduction of virgin queens to mating hives. The artificial queen cells were made from JZBZ top bar cell protectors wrapped with paper and sealed with a wax and honey paste. The used cells were also sealed with the paste. The acceptance of the reused q-cells and artificial cells was at 92% for a one hour release time. The mailing cages had a 17% acceptance at one hour release, and 67% acceptance when released at 48 hours. 

The same authors did another study, and apparently smoking and direct release seemed to be the most successful overall. I did not read the second study, but the use of cages doesn't seem to improve the chances of acceptance.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

AstroBee said:


> However, the direct release method is not without issues either. Last Friday I had to introduce about 10 virgins



I checked yesterday on the "success" of the above and results were terrible!! I got 2 out of the batch to take. 

I'm going to try 2 more tonight, but this time I'm going to use CO2 to knock out the nuc prior to introduction.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

AstroBee said:


> I'm going to use CO2 to knock out the nuc prior to introduction.


I might use nitrous oxide on some of mine.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have run virgins in through the back of my long lang hives with fair results. Just opened the lid and dropped them in. Your mileage may vary.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I have read threads about introducing virgins many times. I am really surprised at the difficulty some post about. I must have just stumbled upon the best way to do it. 

I have direct released about 200 virgins the last two years, and to my knowledge, none have ever been rejected. The age of the virgin is key I think. 
I hatch them out in my incubator and release them within hours. They appear to have no scent, as upon release the bees generally totally ignore them. Save for a few nurse bees that will feed her. 
Some virgins will slightly curl up their abdomen in what appears to be a submissive behavior,especially if the bees gather around and start grooming her with excitement. The excitement never turns to hackles coming up though.

Some virgins will march right out like they are already to rule the roost. But they all are accepted without incident.
Some hatch overnight, so they are 12-15 hours old and still no problems. When they hatch I mark them then return them to the roller cage in the incubator for a few hours to let them 'harden off' or get their sea legs so to speak. 
Small weak mating nuc or 10 frame strong queenless nuc-no matter. They are, however queenless MINIMUM of 24 hours. 36-48 is even better. Remove all started queen cells at or before time of release and close it up. That's it.
When I take out a mated queen from a mini mating nuc, it might stay queenless a few days before I have a new hatch. They do just fine upon introduction of a new virgin, even if they have grown to be strong.
I have several varieties of bees I raise queens from. They all act the same.

Here is an old video when I first started grafting. Not the best, but you get the idea. I'll make a new one soon, when the weather clears. it's been cold and rainy all day

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhUrIAcA3eQ

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Beecurious - Do you recall the source of the study you summarized? I'd like to read that one.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

I wonder- I have only done a few but all have been released via a cage with candy and it has worked nearly 100%. All were banked for up to 2 days, and honey rubbed on the cage just to be sure they had something to eat.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

kilocharlie said:


> Beecurious - Do you recall the source of the study you summarized? I'd like to read that one.


http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/20080611_81


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

After this spring I am not sure I will ever introduce a virgin to a hive by any means. I have had terrible luck in getting them to take. One hive alone has lost 4 virgins either introdiced as queen cells, direct release or caged release. The most recent was last weekend and is my last attempt to requeen this hive. they even managed to loose a mated queen.

I cannto say for certain why btu here are my suspicions for the losses.

1. the colony in fact had a queen but no sign of one. a recently mated queen for exampel that had nto yet produced enough eggs for me to find them. another virgin.

2. We have alomost Zero chance of queens surviving mating flights for one reason or another.

3. we actually have laying workers in the hive and I do nto realize it. (No presence of eggs tells me this is not so)

I don't know why my hives cannot requeen but at one time I had 5 out of 10 hives queenless and every one has been a battle needing multiple queens to remedy. I now have two queenless. I am to the point that any queeenless hive simply gets combined with a queen right hive and is written off as a loss.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Hi Dan,
Laying workers can really be tough on virgin intro and are often hard to detect. When in doubt, hose out the brood frames with a good strong water stream and add a frame of uncapped brood from a queen-right colony. Adding a frame of emergin brood at this time, as well, is even better.
Wait a day and then try to introduce the virgin. Use a 1-day candy plug.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Heres another video of direct release. Queenless nuc 48 hours old, started queen cells removed at time of release. 
Mating nuc Bees treat the virgins slightly different. Some feed them, some groom them. These don't do ether but are fanning right away. Virgin was hatched about 12 hours ago. Nice LARGE dot? Yep, I got some of Michael Palmers Testors paint for marking and am getting too much on the toothpick. It's a better red than the Mann Lake pen, which is really more pink.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5dtZoiLG2c

I consider virgin acceptance into a mating nuc and a successful mated return two seperate issues. In my opinion, they have nothing to do with each other.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

adamf said:


> Laying workers can really be tough on virgin intro and are often hard to detect. When in doubt, hose out the brood frames with a good strong water stream and add a frame of uncapped brood from a queen-right colony. Adding a frame of emerging brood at this time, as well, is even better.


Thinking of having ONLY emerging brood for virgin introduction, I was considering spraying patches of open brood and eggs with syrup... assuming that the syrup would kill the open brood. The mating nuc would benefit from the additional syrup and possibly the protein of the brood as well. 

It's a little unorthodox, but when dealing with with virgins that are one, or two or more days old, I suspect that there may be some merit to the idea.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I am not having a problem introducing queens. that goes just fine. it is a week later when I check and no sing of a queen anywhere. this has happened time and again with cells, virgin queens and mated queens. Introduced via cage or direct release. I have had queen cells hanging in a hive for nearly a week only to have it emerge and never any sign of the queen again. It has been nearly two months since the first of my hives went queenless. in that time 4 others have followed suit. Of those 5 only two are once again queen right. two have queen cells as of right now and one is a dead loss. I am finished with it. I will use it to make queen cells form my number one hive and then break the hive down and combine it with other colonies. but I am finished with it. I have lost a total of 5 various queens to it already . they do not get another chance. they are not even allowed to keep a queen cell they built themselves. They will die strengthening my other hives. I have lost three confirmed mated queens in all of this and I do not know how many virgins or queen cells. In some cases I know for a fact that a virgin queen went into the hive. checked back a day later and found her just fine. a week after that no sign. that was weeks ago and still no sign. Of the variety of things that might do in a new queen. I suspect I am being hit by all of them at one time or another. but the net result is almost no colony in my entire apiary is capable of gaining a new queen. and it is not the introduction that is the problem. What amazes me is that this colony has not converted to laying workers even after all this time. I have a 5 frame nuc that failed at a supercedure attempt that may already have developed laying workers. but not this one. it just keeps o plugging along making honey. I expect to open it one day and find every last bee has dropped dead of old age. I already reduced it by one box yesterday.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

DY, 
I have no intention of checking one week later. 

How are you measuring acceptance success if you have no queens afterwards? 
I don't believe your introduction of virgins is flawless, unless every single virgin is being killed on mating flights.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> DY,
> I have no intention of checking one week later.
> 
> How are you measuring acceptance success if you have no queens afterwards?
> I don't believe your introduction of virgins is flawless, unless every single virgin is being killed on mating flights.


that fine I wasn't telling you to either. I said I did.

I am referring to the video definition of acceptance, not mine. that a queen enters the hive unmolested and can be found alive and well 24 hours later. 

Personally my definition is a bit more demanding than that. I consider an adequately fertile and laying queen with a good pattern as accepted.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I've had great success introducing them just on emerging brood ........no other bees. Works great (unless SHB get in the nuc)..........


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

snl said:


> I've had great success introducing them just on emerging brood ........no other bees. Works great....


This has been my understanding.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

I put together a mating nuc with a virgin and a few attendants in a Brushy Mtn. requeening frame today. Any suggestions of how long I should wait until I let her loose?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I have done it with success just dabbing a little honey on the top of her thorax and running her in the entrance, but I may use some smoke like MB suggested next time along with the honey. John


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