# SHB Study... NEED YOUR THOUGHTS



## rrussell6870

If anyone would like to know what we have found that works well, please just PM me or email me so we can talk directly. I have posted some of our findings on the Mississippi Beekeepers Club section of this site (under social groups). SHB is a VERY big problem and will only get worse...and make no mistake about it...help is NOT on the way from the government or colleges... We need to work together to educate other beekeepers and find the most effective means to fight this threat to ALL of our livelyhoods and the industry as a whole. I would like to see us all unite and share our own personnal findings with each other. We have MANY experiments going right now, and have found extensive treatments that work, yet take a lot out of a large commercial operation. Please send me your findings and I will send you mine...I would like to post them on the forum here, but since most of the best methods have not been approved by the Feds, I cannot openly suggest it...If you have any suggestions or experiments that you would like to try... I have set aside 1,000 hives specifically for studies. I will gladly run any tests that you would like to try...just let me know what you have in mind and we can work together to find a way out of this mess. Thanks!
Robert Russell
Russell Apiaries


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## Tim B

I will be taking a cd case and cutting two sides off of it. I will insert double sided tape on both sides of the inside of the case and apply Coral dust to the tape. I will then attach the case vertically on one side at the back corner of the hive with an open side of the case pointing down. The beetles can enter the case from the top or bottom as they climb the wall. The fact that it is hanging vertically will allow the dying beetles to fall out thus preventing the trap from becoming clogged. The case is to prevent the bees from removing the insecticide. There will be a minor exposure to cumaphos as the bees remove the dying or dead beetles so this approach couldn't be used with supers on but I will be using it primarily in nuc boxes and splits. It should keep killing w/o needing to be reloaded for a lengthy period of time but the bees might propylize the ends of the case. Such a configuration would work laying horizontally as well but might become clogged with beetles. I've also considered cutting a slit in the back of my bottom board through which a horizontal trap could be emptied w/o having to pull the hive apart or disturb the entrance. I'll update you on my findings as beetle season is starting to ramp up in our area.


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## Robbo

going ok so far with this method.

no beetles here in the winter tho.

will report back in the hotter months

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=542655


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## rrussell6870

TIM B, We did a study on 50 hives using just the CoRal 2% Powder 4 years back. The CD cases work for trapping bettles for sure... the issue that we find with them is that the bees begin to propolize everything in double time at the first sign of the beetles (including the traps), which leaves you returning to the hive to replace or clean and/or reload the traps...for larger operations, this could mean a TON of extra work and costs (which will end up effecting the consumers pocket book)... This is a HUGE issue because for commercial operations like ours (queens and packages), we are worried that as costs are forced upwards, the hobbiests will become fewer and fewer... Although over 90% of our sales are to other commercial operations, they ALL started out as hobbiest.. and we are ALL getting older each day. lol. So for the future of our industry, we strive to keep the costs down so that the new hobbiest can afford to start. Sorry that was so long winded. lol. Our studies did show that the 2% CoRal Powder DID work effectively and lastingly when applied DIRECTLY to the back corners of the hive on top of the frames (allowing it to fall in between the frames...all the way to the bottom board), BENEATH the honey supers. This treatment is done 3 times per year at maximum and not only did it put a huge hurting on the beetles, but it also completely wiped out ALL varrora mites (in fact, 1 treatment works for 2 full seasons against varrora). We use your method in ALL of our mating nuks however...(10,000 of them). We place the micro-cd cases (with a small openning broken out on each side) in the bottom of each nuk...The bait and poison is simply Combat Roach Gel (about five tiny dots on the center of each case). These work great! There are not enough bees to gum up the entrances and the gel lasts for the whole season. Thanks for the awesome imput!!! Any more ideas, please post them!!! What works for you may very well work for many! Thanks!


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## rrussell6870

ROBBO, Thanks SO MUCH for your very well presented post! As I understand it you guys in Australlia haven't been hit quite as hard, possibly due to less shipping and thus lower levels of transfer and migration... lucky devils. lol. We have several traps that are simular to these on the market here in the U.S. Mainly screened bottoms with full sized trays of oil beneath, as well as "troughs" that are beneath a small slit made along the doorway. These are all very effective methods...yet the trouble with them seems to be that they are a huge expense for larger operations, both in the re-equipping and in the management stages. Thanks for your great input and please keep us informed of anything that you find!!! What works well for you, may work well for many!


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## Daddy'sBees

We'd love to see the CD case setup. Got any pics of this?


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## BillyH

This link is from Bee Hive Journal very good web site for Beekeeping. The web site has a lot of information for Beekeeping. :lookout:

BillyHut

http://beehivejournal.blogspot.com/2009/02/cd-case-small-hive-beetle-trap.html


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## copper287

I have wanted someone to come up with a trap that is on the front of the hive and goes up in the hive some.The bees can still walk over but holes big enough that the shb falls in.Needs to be in a L shape.With the long part up in the hive and some veg. oil in the lower part.Bees are running the shb's all the time on the front of hives and that should run them right in.That would take them out before they go in a hive and be easy to look in and clean.The bees would like it to,no more opening the hive up as much.


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## rrussell6870

COPPER287,

There is a trap that is made in western TN that is like what you described... It is called "Beetle Jail"...

Here is a link that shows a video of it in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egLroAZ_Qn0

Again...It may be great for the hobbiests, but far to expensive and too much upkeep for a larger commercial operation. Our studies have also shown that beetles are just as likely to enter the hive from the top or absolutely any opening in the hive. The bees may make a good seal that can prevent this...but working your hives will break that seal and leave these areas virtually defenseless. I am hoping to try any other chemical methods that someone may suggest. Thanks for your great ideas!


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## rrussell6870

DADDY'S BEES,

I will take some pics of the micro-cd method for you and post them here. Again, they work very well and are very cheap, yet they do require you to access the lower brood chamber quite often... not so bad for the hobbiest, but can be overwhelming for a commercial beekeeper with several thousand hives. Thanks for your interest and good luck!


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## BillyH

Hey copper287,

The type of SHB trap that I have for all my Bee hives is the Freeman Beetle Trap. So for I have had good luck with the Freeman Beetle Trap. I only have Three Hives up now. Next year I will add two more Hives. That will be all the Hives that I will work with as a Beekeeping Hobby for me. I wish you good luck with your Bees, Just do not give up on the Ladys, You will have your good days and your bad days with your Ladys, Just take it "One Day At A Time" It will work out for you. Its a lot of Beekeepers on here that will help you out on the forum, What we need is that we all work together for the good of Beekeeping. For me I love to talk with others about Beekeeping. I do not know it all about Beekeeping but I will not give up. I am 66 years old, This all new to me. :lookout:

Take Care:
BillyH


http://freemanbeetletrap.com/home


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## suttonbeeman

I had my first loss to beetles today (should I say found them today). Even tough I have wintered in Florida since 2000 I have not had beetles run the bees out of hives until this year. I would see quite a few beetles in the fall but no problems. Last two years I took hives to Wisconsin due to the two droughts. You had to look hard thru 4-5 hives to find ONE beetle! THis year my colonies have numerous beetles .....about the number I would normally see two months from now. THe loss was 7 nucs(strong framers). We have been trying to extract for a month with a huge crop and I hadnt done anything with the nucs. THey needed more room, and i think they sent out distress signal. We came out of Fl with fewer than normal as it was a cold winter. I lost seven and captured a swarm that abandoned in a tree. I believe the cause is the hottest summer we have ever had with lots of rain....like a tropical enviroment.(this is in KY). The remaining 25 nucs are full of beetles and I put in a Cutts beetle blaster and plastic 3 x3 corragated with slit down middle 
with fripnol(sp) on bottom, Last year was cool and wet no problem here and the two before were hot but VERY dry. THe first year I was in Fl was a very dry year....didnt find a beetle when I got home (April 2001). Anyone have any simlular situations??


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## BillyH

Hey suttonbeeman,

I am so sorry about your lost to SHB. If you will please go to this link and read it about how to kill the SHB and see if it will be a big help to you " I hope So". 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=165

Take Care: :lookout:
BillyH


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## archiater

I just discovered tansy. A plant used in the "old days" to repel ants, mosquitos was stuffed into mattresses, coffins, and hung on windowsills to keep bugs away. It does repel Japanese beetles, ants, potato bugs so i'm giving it a try. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tansy


I found a guy in RI that has the stuff growing wild in his yard. I am going to stuff a bunch of leaves and stems under the SBB and over the inner cover. I have two hives that are loaded with SHBs but that doesnt compare to a more controlled study on 50 hives.


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## rrussell6870

ARCHIATER,

We would love to look into Tansy. Especially to find what chemicals it may possess that give it these properties. If it is viable, we could try to make it into a base oil, powder, etc... BIG concern about its effects on the bees of course. But we will soon find out. The study that we will start with will include 5 hives with a base oil drawn from the plant directly... if this has no major adverse reactions (such as the bees fleeing), we will begin to study the plant more and see if we can put it in a multitude of test in different forms, dose levels, and applications and levels of infestation. Thanks so much for bringing this to our attention!!! We will post a seperate forum on this site to report the finds on each study. Thanks again and please let us know how it turns out with your two hives!! If you can take pics of before and after and measure the amounts that you dose and way that you apply, that would be VERY helpful! Thanks again!


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## rrussell6870

I had a conversation with a gentleman tonight that mentioned that he had a small amount of kerosene leak out of a heated preasure washer and onto his honey house floor... he said that the next morning when he rolled the washer out of the honey house, there was a nice sized pile of SHB larvae dead on top of the kerosene. We are going to test this theory a little... Has anyone tried a baited trap that is OUTSIDE of the hives?? Like say one per bee yard that is baited with a few frames of honey in the sun, yet has a funnel or something near the entrance that will trap the beetles (maybe even one with a poison)? I have a trap that is use to attract horse flies that works in a simular way... there is a large black rubber ball that hangs beneath a cone, and on top is a large jar that is upside down above the cone... they are attracted to the ball in the sun, but when they fly up to leave it, the cone guides them into the jar (which they cannot leave simply because they keep trying to fly upwards... That thing fills up every week... Just wondering if anyone has tried a simular trap for the beetle BEFORE they even reach the hives? Thanks!


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## Rick 1456

The leaves resemble,,,flws too actually,,,Marigolds.....They too are companion plants to gardens. Not sure but I think they mask the attractive oders of the plants in question. 
Ayway

Rick SoMd


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## archiater

Russell

In the link posted you will see their are health warnings associated with it. So i dont necessarily want the tansy nectar or pollen to get into the honey. Through word of mouth i was told to cut the flowers off and the stems and leaves with the oils in them worked fine in repelling ants. They reported it definitely did not repel the bees. I'll keep you posted but give me a PM when you post your results because i'm not always on beesource.


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## rrussell6870

Tansy,

This plant is better known here in the south as "Bitter Weed". It has long been a plague to dairy pastures as grazing on it would indeed make the cows milk taste quite bitter. There are several ways that this plant can be TOXIC, however, all include extracting the oil from the plant, so DONT DO THAT, unless you are very skilled and safe. Some Good news about it is that the blooms will NOT sour your honey. Actually the flower is the part most used for cooking and is said to have a wonderful flavor. Thanks!


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Bee breeding! I think I have some hives that are SHB resistant!


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## rrussell6870

The trouble with resistant bees is that they are too darn mean to manage. Thus far the only bees that show any true resistance to the SHB is the Africanized Honey Bee...and we all know how tough they are too work with. We have mixed the Africans with Italian, Carniolans, and even Buckfast...but it seams that the second they start to become gentle enough to work with, they loose their protective insticts that tell them to clean out the larvae and glue up the eggs. In africa the SHB is considered a secondary pest because of the traits that their bees carry, but in this case, I believe that we will have to look outside of the genetics industry for the answer. Our industry is dependant on its "New Generations"... Every commercial bee keeper out there was once a hobbiest, and we are all getting older.... We may be able to "put up with" the agressiveness and "flightyness" of african bees...but you can bet that the number of hobbiest that may have become commercial companies in the future would certainly drop to "Slim or None", eventually leading to the death of our industry as a whole. It takes a certain type of person to do what we do...thats why there are so few of us. We would love to find out more about any bees that are showing a resistance...I will buy some mated queens from anyone that thinks they may have some so we can put them to the test. Thanks!


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Sure, the africans are resistant, but most of my other hives are purebred gentle queens. The majority are VSH and Hygienic Italian w/ VSH.


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## rrussell6870

Here are the results of our 15 hive study using VSH queens and screened bottom boards with oil pans. All 15 hives consisted of 2 deeps and 1 shallow, they were Very strong hives, and were completely beetle free on 08-01-2010... When we moved the hives to a new location near the Smith County, MS watermelon patches... by 08-05-2010 all 15 hives were slimed (all three supers). The oil pans were all full of beetles, so they do catch beetles...however, in a heavily infested environment, they are just not enough to stop the constant flow of in coming beetles. The VSH queens were just over a year old, and although they were Very heavy layers, they did not seem to put up any more of a fight than any European Breeds. We have pictures available through email (couldnt post here). The one constant that we have found in all of our studies is that there are many ways to capture and kill the beetles...so long as the hives are in lightly infested environments. Chemical treatment seems to be the only answer to this growing threat. Each year the beetles grow in numbers and move further and further outward. They do NOT just live off of bee hives, so even if we all used a heavy chemical treatment at once, they would just keep coming back via the same infectious routes that they arrive from before (Mainly from melons and other soft pulped friuts). Never the less, a good "Clean-up" of as many apiaries as possible would work wonders for knocking back their numbers for a while. Also, we need to be working more closely with growers and regulatory agencies in order to get them to address the beeltes and their trafficing as well. Any thoughts???


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## Texas Bee

rrussell6870 said:


> Our studies did show that the 2% CoRal Powder DID work effectively and lastingly when applied DIRECTLY



Russel, is this stuff a coral calcium powder ? thanks


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## rrussell6870

Texas,

I think it is... If I remember correctly, it is derived from the coral reef in austrailia. It works WELL for varrora (at least two years actually)... But it also kills the beetles and wax moths, however... it is only effective on them while it is piled on the bottom board because they actually have to get some on them while the bees are chasing them around. There is also a liquid form of CoRal that is 6.12%... We mix the liquid in a 10:1 ratio with natural soy bean oil and soak rolls of heavy duty paper towels in it (1 part CoRal, 10 parts oil). 1 Gallon of this mixture will thorough soak two full rolls of the paper towels. We cut the rolls in half before we soak them. We use "tupperware shoeboxes" to put them in (mark it POISON and store it in a safe place...DONT get it on you...it will burn your skin if not washed off quickly). When you are ready you can just take the "Shoebox" to the bee yard with you and simply pull off a sheet as you need it. We place a sheet flat on the center back of the bottom board and this time of year on the center back of the top super (under the top) as well. We have done several test and in heavy threats placing on in the center back between each super will help ALOT. The beetles are BAD this year...well I guess you already know that. I hope this helps. Let me know if I can be of any more help to you...thats what I am here for. Thanks!
Robert Russell
Russell Apiaries


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## max2

Looking forward to your suggestions. Have a look at some experiments I did:http://ecovillageresearchgroup.com.au/


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## devdog108

has anyone tried the Amdro ****roach gel to see if they like it? According to the MSDS sheet, the active ingredient is nontoxic to honeybees. Another beek and I are gonna run a trial on it to see how it affects the shb levels in each hive. he is running crisco/borax traps and i am gonna try the gel. here is a clip of the msds sheet:

Does hydramethylnon affect wildlife?
• Hydramethylnon dust is practically non-toxic to honey bees. It has an oral LD50 of 68 ug/bee (1). When 30 ug of
hydramethylnon was applied topically to bees, it was not toxic


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## rrussell6870

DevDog,

Hydramethylnon is the insecticde that is found in Combat Roach gel and many others that are favorites of beekeepers using CD cases and beetle barns. To my knowledge, no one has actually tried it "Outside" of a trap where the bees can actually get it on them and carry it throughout the hive...That would be a VERY interesting trial! It would however leave traces in honey crops... and that would be a downside for a large portion of beekeepers considering that it is slighty toxic to humans who ingest it... We will run a study on this using 30 hives and see what we can do with it. If it doesnt have any ill effects on the bees and the trace amounts left in the honey are small enough, it could be an extremely effective product when use in open application. Thanks for your research and please let us know how your studies turn out!

Russell Apiaries
Robert Russell


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## peacekeeperapiaries

rrussell6870 said:


> Hydramethylnon is the insecticde that is found in Combat Roach gel


I thought FIPRONIL was the active ingredient in COMBAT and MAXFORCE gels??


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## devdog108

I was gonna say, thats what I am seeing. I have both in hand and Fipronil is in combat and Hydramethylnon is in the Amdro. I would never leave any sort of insecticide open for the bees to touch. I am adding that to cd traps as you suggest in your post above. I have small hive beetles in the 5's to 10's. Then we moved them to cotton, and the other beek with me had a pretty heavy infestation. We are still running the comparison side by side!


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## Barry

rrussell6870 said:


> It would however leave traces in honey crops... and that would be a downside for a large portion of beekeepers considering that it is slighty toxic to humans who ingest it... We will run a study on this using 30 hives and see what we can do with it. If it doesnt have any ill effects on the bees and the trace amounts left in the honey are small enough


It would be a downside to all beekeepers who use it this way, as well as the industry. Do we really want yet another chemical leaving trace amounts in honey? I sure don't. Frankly, I'm surprised that you would suggest doing this.


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## lupester

Russell, 
frow my reseach on the web CoRal is Coumaphos. If this is so I found two interesting facts from a CCD study:
1. Coumaphos, an organophosphate, is lipophilic, and so accumulates in wax. Increased levels of the compound in wax have been shown to decrease survivorship of developing queens [81], [82]. Similar results with worker bees have also been recorded (Pettis, unpublished). 
2. Chronic or sub-lethal exposure to agricultural- or beekeeper-applied pesticides can weaken the honey bee immune system [48], hampering the ability of bees to fight off infection. This study found no evidence that the presence or amount of any individual pesticide occurred more frequently or abundantly in CCD-affected apiaries or colonies. In fact, the opposite was true; two products, esfenvalerate in wax, and *coumaphos* in wax, brood, and adult bees were found more frequently and at higher levels in control colonies than in CCD colonies.Coumaphos is a product used by beekeepers to control varroa mites. Elevated levels of this product in control apiaries suggest that beekeepers managing those apiaries had more aggressively controlled for this parasitic mite than beekeepers managing CCD apiaries.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info...1;jsessionid=FD7EE265CBA1AC5323F39D61A272CDAF


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## lupester

Russell, 
Have you guys tried to create some sort of container that could hold the towels, made out of plastic lets say, that will allow the beetles to run in as they are running away from the bees but won't allow the bees in. Say two sheets of plastic stacked on top of each other with spacers to hold them sepearate. It should be thin enough to place on the bottom board or on the top. That should allow you to pull the paper towel out quickly and insert a new one. My thought is just to keep the bees from walking on it and infecting the wax as little as possible.


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## devdog108

we are treating so much these days it all scares me. I have watched 10 beetles that i killed a few weeks ago and the bees havent carried them out. Now, I have russiand and MHI's so you would have thought, but they seen to be to busy to do that. What we have to discern is whats the greater evil here, apistan, combat, amdro.....I havent had to use ANYTHING until i put my bees next to another beeks that had way too many SHB. I now have more than i have ever seen in my short time as a beek. These are my strongest hives and are dealing with them, but the numbers are high IMHO. I won't bring them back once the flwo is over, but quarantine them to another place until i get a handle on them. Once i do, it's back to beesness as ususal. I have always had a few, but never this number. The goal of the cd traps it to hopefully let the little darn things die in the case.....but im sure that wont be the case....LOL. I hate SHB and because i have chosen to treat them with these 2 product, i wont ull the honey and will end up replacing all the comb, but thats just me.


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## rrussell6870

peacekeeperapiaries said:


> I thought FIPRONIL was the active ingredient in COMBAT and MAXFORCE gels??


From my understanding, Hydramethylnon is the compound of Fipronil and adjuvant bait. Here is a link that gives the testing data. It shows that Hyframethylnon is used in basically all of the "baited" roach gels on the market today.

http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/hydramet.htm

The label may list Fipronil as the active ingredient... but chemical ethics should have made them name the actual compound, because the bait is indeed active in the use and may very well hold its own harmful properties.

Thanks!


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## rrussell6870

Barry said:


> It would be a downside to all beekeepers who use it this way, as well as the industry. Do we really want yet another chemical leaving trace amounts in honey? I sure don't. Frankly, I'm surprised that you would suggest doing this.


Barry,

I agree fully, sorry that I was not more clear with my wording. If the trace amounts are above 20% of the acceptable threshhold, the honey should NOT be consumed. The only reason that I would not be jumping up and down about the use of something that will leave trace amounts of chemicals in the honey is because the beetle problem is SO serious, and if these chemicals can be used for a selected amount of time to get the spread of the beetles under control, the honey crops of hives treated with them can be used as winter stores, instead of for human consumption.

A time period of treatment is needed, because the traces do dwindle away through time (Hyrdamethylnon traces have been found to be completely absent after the course of two years).

We maintain several vast yards of Un-treated hives in Safe-zones, that we know the beetles have not reached yet. We introduce small numbers of beetles to these hives to study their ability to adapt to the threat and to allow them to build their own natural resistance to them. Once they have proven to have successfully adapted, we add a larger amount of beetles, and so on...

These hives will provide genetics for future colonies, but that is still quite some time away.

The trouble is... Here in the south (as in many areas), there are still areas of few beetles, and there are areas of MASSIVE amounts... Most people that I have spoken to have said that they have counted 5-20 beetles on average per hive... but then there are many others that could not imagine someone being able to count them because there are just SO MANY. In the past week we have lost over 70 STRONG study hives (over 680 in 2010 so far). These hives were managed in much the same way that the average beek would manage their hives. We only used chemical treatments when it seamed ABSOLUTELY neccessary and even then, we would only treat the hive that needed it (not the entire yard). 

So the question is... Which is the lesser evil? Having less honey for a few years while agressively addressing the beetle issue, or having hundreds of beekeepers go completely out of business (and thousands of hobbiests lose interest from frustration) while waiting for the bees to adapt?

No, we do not want any more chemicals in our honey, and we are certainly willing to work hard to keep from having to use them... but for many beekeepers, they are not trying to rid their hives of a pest...they are striving to have any hives at all.

Thanks for all your hard work and please let me know if you have any ideas!


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## max2

I have not used any chemicals at all with my bees. I have to deal with SHB and use Diatomacious Earth in various traps. It does add to the work load and some traps require hives to be opened for inspection. ( eg AJ traps) There is some evidence that manipulation of hives ( eg opening them to often) may contribute to the SHB problem.

About HYDRAMETHYLNON - I understand that it is used as an attractant? If this is correct, would it be possible to use it as an attractant near hives ( not in hives) together with vegetable oil - meaning to ATTRACT the SHB with Hydramethylnon and using the oil to kill the beetles?


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## rrussell6870

lupester said:


> Russell,
> frow my reseach on the web CoRal is Coumaphos. If this is so I found two interesting facts from a CCD study:
> 1. Coumaphos, an organophosphate, is lipophilic, and so accumulates in wax. Increased levels of the compound in wax have been shown to decrease survivorship of developing queens [81], [82]. Similar results with worker bees have also been recorded (Pettis, unpublished).
> 2. Chronic or sub-lethal exposure to agricultural- or beekeeper-applied pesticides can weaken the honey bee immune system [48], hampering the ability of bees to fight off infection. This study found no evidence that the presence or amount of any individual pesticide occurred more frequently or abundantly in CCD-affected apiaries or colonies. In fact, the opposite was true; two products, esfenvalerate in wax, and *coumaphos* in wax, brood, and adult bees were found more frequently and at higher levels in control colonies than in CCD colonies.Coumaphos is a product used by beekeepers to control varroa mites. Elevated levels of this product in control apiaries suggest that beekeepers managing those apiaries had more aggressively controlled for this parasitic mite than beekeepers managing CCD apiaries.
> 
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info...1;jsessionid=FD7EE265CBA1AC5323F39D61A272CDAF


Hey Lupester,

NICE JOB!! You are right on the money about coumophos traces in wax...But not to worry, the traces in our studies did dissipate at an average rate of 32 ug per 60 days. So if you treat this year to get the beetle poulation under control, you should have clean wax again by next spring.

You are also correct about the CCD studies. Our own studies show that hives were far more prone to calapse under the pressence of pests than the ones that had been treated within the past 3 years.

As for the concern of bees losing their own ability to ward off infection due to treatment.... you are right again!

But again, no need for concern... every good breeder has a reserve of "base" breeds (including feral strains). The process of breeding honey bees for genetic enhancement can certainly leave the new strains vulnerable to infection... but all good breeders "FEED" their genetic strains at least every two generations. Keeping some of the base genetics in play at all times and continuing to "start over" from time to time to keep from over altering the genes.

Thanks for the research!!


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## rrussell6870

lupester said:


> Russell,
> Have you guys tried to create some sort of container that could hold the towels, made out of plastic lets say, that will allow the beetles to run in as they are running away from the bees but won't allow the bees in. Say two sheets of plastic stacked on top of each other with spacers to hold them sepearate. It should be thin enough to place on the bottom board or on the top. That should allow you to pull the paper towel out quickly and insert a new one. My thought is just to keep the bees from walking on it and infecting the wax as little as possible.


Lupester,

We have indeed developed our own traps to keep the CoRal away from the actual bees, but allow the beetles to reach it... But the end result was the same as CDs, AJs, Corugated signs, etc... "the traps work well for capturing and killing beetles...but not ALL of them...and the ones that get by the traps are enough to leave you with a slimed hive in 3 days or less".

Traps are the key to keeping the beetles at bay in areas where the infestations are still at lower levels. Its the areas that have THOUSANDS of beetles pouring in to a bee yard that seem to be the problem. And if those areas are not controlled, it is only a matter of time before they spread to the other areas.

Thanks for the thought! Keep thinking, we will only find a solution through working together!


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## rrussell6870

max2 said:


> I have not used any chemicals at all with my bees. I have to deal with SHB and use Diatomacious Earth in various traps. It does add to the work load and some traps require hives to be opened for inspection. ( eg AJ traps) There is some evidence that manipulation of hives ( eg opening them to often) may contribute to the SHB problem.
> 
> About HYDRAMETHYLNON - I understand that it is used as an attractant? If this is correct, would it be possible to use it as an attractant near hives ( not in hives) together with vegetable oil - meaning to ATTRACT the SHB with Hydramethylnon and using the oil to kill the beetles?


Hey Max,

Thanks for the articles! And thanks for bringing up the issue of "Breaking down" a hive in infested areas!!! That is one of the biggest troubles here in the US. We are still working our bees late into the summer here. 

The beetles are ALWAYS hiding and trying to gain entry to the hives...Thus when we break the propolis seal around the top and between the supers, we are giving them access to areas that the bees are no longer guarding... especially in the heat of summer, which is when they will all stick their heads in the cells and fill their bellys when the hive is molested.

So please everyone be careful to watch for beetles in the cracks BEFORE you break the seal...you will never catch them if the make it to the frames.

We have also found that they will fly VERY quickly from the outside of other hives (or even from the ground, grass, or trees) to one that is open.

As for Hydramethylnon, it is the name given to the compound product of a mixture of certain baits with a certain insecticide.

We use MaxForce in our Micro CD cases that we place in some of our mating nuk yards... We do as you were saying and mix it with a pollen substitute that we have allowed to firment...This makes a WONDERFUL attractant for the beetles, and in the mini-nuks, the micro-CD case is enough to stop them.

Thanks again!


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## rrussell6870

devdog108 said:


> we are treating so much these days it all scares me. I have watched 10 beetles that i killed a few weeks ago and the bees havent carried them out. Now, I have russiand and MHI's so you would have thought, but they seen to be to busy to do that. What we have to discern is whats the greater evil here, apistan, combat, amdro.....I havent had to use ANYTHING until i put my bees next to another beeks that had way too many SHB. I now have more than i have ever seen in my short time as a beek. These are my strongest hives and are dealing with them, but the numbers are high IMHO. I won't bring them back once the flwo is over, but quarantine them to another place until i get a handle on them. Once i do, it's back to beesness as ususal. I have always had a few, but never this number. The goal of the cd traps it to hopefully let the little darn things die in the case.....but im sure that wont be the case....LOL. I hate SHB and because i have chosen to treat them with these 2 product, i wont ull the honey and will end up replacing all the comb, but thats just me.


DevDog,

You are exactly right! The troubles are multiplying due to the spread of the beetles... A yard that has only seen a few beetles can quickly be overrun by the introduction of infested hives, nuks, packages, etc... But not only are they spreading via other bees, but also via fruits and melons.

The beetles second food of choice is melons and then pulpy fruits... And beetles need to feed to lay and thus multiply...

Lets say you have a bee yard somewhat near a melon patch (that would be most of us in the south. lol)... Well you have a few beetles that your bees are doing a good job of keeping at bay all season...until its time to harvest those melons that is... When the melon producer harvests his melon, he leaves small, miss-shaped, and broken melon in the field... your few beetles travel to those rotting melons, and withing a few days time you have several thousand beetles busting down your hives doorstep trying to get in... and many many thousand still to come.

That is why it is SO IMPORTANT that we work with the growers in our areas to fight the beetles together...if not, all of our work can still be in vain.

Thanks and Good Luck!


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## devdog108

Yesterday among 5 hives, I placed Amdro as the main component in micro cd cases on th elanding boards and then i pulled frame #1 frame from the super and put in another standard case with the Combat gel. I used literal dots of the Combat gel and about 1" aorunf the center in the micro cases. As i said before, I will quarantine these to my 10 acres where there aren't any other hives until I get control over then. I would leave them there permenantly, but the "local" kids love to get into trouble. The cotton bloom is slwoing down in one of our fields, but seems to be still booming on the main field. Probably leave them another week or two and then pull them and get them back closer to home where i can monitor them a little better. I have been checking them about 1 time a week.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Barry said:


> It would be a downside to all beekeepers who use it this way, as well as the industry. Do we really want yet another chemical leaving trace amounts in honey? I sure don't. Frankly, I'm surprised that you would suggest doing this.


Plus I would think that the apiary inspectors, fda, etc would not be happy with you because to the best of my knowledge it is ILLEGAL!!!


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## lupester

None of the feed stores/tractor supply in Fort Worth carry the coral anymore. Where are you guys getting it?


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## peacekeeperapiaries

devdog108 said:


> I havent had to use ANYTHING until i put my bees next to another beeks that had way too many SHB. I now have more than i have ever seen in my short time as a beek.


Had this happen last year... we moved 30 hives to a new yard and the beetles were out of control within 2 weeks, i could not figure it out. About a month later I happended to get a call from a hobby beekeeper for some advice and went to his house to give him a hand. His house and 6 hives were about a block away from my yard and his hives were beetle factories, never seen so many beetles in my life, guess i found MY beetle problem. Problem is now resolved... he chose not to take my advice on the beetle problems and several other issues....his hives all died and he chose not to be a beekeeper any longer. Beetle problems are light this year in that yard.


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## devdog108

how did you accomplish wiping them out if I may ask? I wil be pulling the cotton hives very soon as the bloom is starting to slow down altogether. Gonna check in another week or so and see where we are...


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## max2

Amdro and Combat - in Australia they are approved for Fire Ants and Roaches - pretty full-on stuff to have near bees?


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## rrussell6870

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> Plus I would think that the apiary inspectors, fda, etc would not be happy with you because to the best of my knowledge it is ILLEGAL!!!


Nope, not illegal. The miticide that we are discussing is Coumaphus 6.12%...It is also the active ingredient in brand the brand Checkmite+. 

I want to go ahead and make it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR... "I DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO HAVE TO USE ANY CHEMICALS ON THEIR HIVES!!!" It seems that some people are beginning to take this whole thing out of context.

I am running a very, very large study using 1,000 of our own "once healthy" hives, in order to try to find the most simple, safe, and effective solutions for ridding our industry of the SHB.

I started this thread to ask my fellow beekeepers from across the globe for fresh ideas that we could try in our studies.

Many of them have stepped up and given great ideas and given us all insite from what their own studies and experiences have produced... 

So I just want to make this clear.... WE ARE NOT TESTING ANYTHING THAT HAS NOT ALREADY BEEN CLEARED FOR USE IN HONEY BEE COLONIES BY THE USDA.

We are simply testing ALL forms of possible solutions...some are chemical...and some are not.... I will be posting the finds of these studies as they are concluded... and I do not want hate mail from anyone if the chemical methods turn out to be more effective... I am TESTING, not SELLING.

It makes me seem like I am some chemical nut when I have to keep defending the chemicals because people hear rumors about how harmful they are.

This particular chemical in question Coumaphus 6.12% is currently used on nearly ALL cattle in the US as a fly and mite control...and not just as a spray either...It is FED to them. It is also used at your local vets office as a medication that is added to shampoos for cats, dogs, birds, etc... it is sold at nearly every co-op, feed store, and even at wal-mart.

It does NOT turn your honey toxic, but it does retain residues in your wax for a good while (this is part of its effectiveness), so IF you use it, you should remove your honey supers first.

I wish that all bees could be completely chemical free...but the entire purpose of these studies is because we know that beekeepers are losing their apiaries COMPLETELY to these pests...if you are not one of them, good luck, because you could be soon.

PS. Kingfisher, this wasnt meant to be ugly towards you, I just needed to make sure that it was known that I am not the "Chemical Guy", just because I am exploring all options. lol. Please don't take it the wrong way. Thanks.


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## rrussell6870

max2 said:


> Amdro and Combat - in Australia they are approved for Fire Ants and Roaches - pretty full-on stuff to have near bees?


Hey Max,

Yes Fipronil and Hydramethylnon are both pretty serious insecticides. They have been VERY popular when used inside of traps as bait/kill. Thus the "trap" is actually only acting as a protective barrier to keep the bees away from the insecticide. Based on the data sheets provided be the MSDS and USDA, they are actually NON-TOXIC to honey bees. We have ran our own studies and found that to be true, however...we did report a slower production rating, and more agression during treatment in 14 out of 20 colonies tested over a 12 month period.

Here is a link to see the data record...

http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/hydramet.htm

From my understanding, Australia has pulled back its 1996 acceptance of the use of Coumaphus as "over the counter" pet flea and tick powder, because the Bayer Corp. had failed to provide proof of its safety on thin skinned pets such as cats...

Can you give us a little hand and check a few labels on the pet care isle to let us know if you see Coumafus on any of the flea and tick control items and if so, what percent?

Thanks for all your help and I look forward to meeting you one day.


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## max2

From my understanding, Australia has pulled back its 1996 acceptance of the use of Coumaphus as "over the counter" pet flea and tick powder, because the Bayer Corp. had failed to provide proof of its safety on thin skinned pets such as cats...

Can you give us a little hand and check a few labels on the pet care isle to let us know if you see Coumafus on any of the flea and tick control items and if so, what percent?

Thanks for all your help and I look forward to meeting you one day. 

I hope to meet you one day too. I like the serious, scientific approach. You very much deserve our thanks. The Government here is doing not enough ( very little money is made available) on Bee Research

I will check the Pet section next time I'm in town.

All the best with the research.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Coumaphus is not what I am talking about. I am talking about amdro, combat etc. They are not labeled for honey bees. 
I feel that breeding is the only cure for Shb.

Mike 
P.S. No hard feelings.


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## beemandan

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> I feel that breeding is the only cure for Shb.


I used to believe that it was a bad sign when I opened a hive and saw dozens (sometimes hundreds) of SHB on top of the inner cover or just beneath on the outer edges of the frames of the topmost super. I'm beginning to think that I had it all backwards. These may be the bees that successfully drive large numbers of beetles as far from the brood nest as is possible. The problem may be the hives where you find beetles lurking on frames adjacent to the nest.

Breeding may be the answer but we'd better be careful deciding what we're selecting for. If we choose breeders from hives where we don't see many beetles....it may be because they are hidden near the nest, in cells, out of sight.


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## Natural Resources

Interesting experiments you folks have going, but I do have a question about your pesticide use. Has anyone checked with any of the chemical companies to see if they have attempted to get any other chemicals approved for use in the hive? You might be able to provide them with hives to test for residues and toxicity thresholds. Also, some chemicals do not necessarily kill insects instantly. Some are required to be ingested and others through contact. Some also prevent queen fertility. So what happens to the SHB that come in contact with the traps, but then leave the trap and go back into the hive. Maybe you kill 20-30 in the trap, but another 20-30 go back into the hive, perhaps leading to bees coming in contact with the insecticide. Also, some insecticides are less toxic to adults bees, but more toxic to larvae. You may want to test these aspects out (which is probably what the Chemical Co. do also) to see if what you are using could have alternative effects. Perhaps if could come up with data that showed this level of confidence, then more products could be approved faster.

Also, from my experience, having a large number of bees in the box is the only way to keep SHB under control. Its only when I have a box that swarms, requeens, or stops laying do the SHB become an issue. I have lost probably four boxes this summer to SHB infestation, but after close examination I found lots of swarm cells, no eggs (some brood), or SHB showed up in splits that did not have enough bees. Also, the hives that I crack open more often do have SHB's, but not a large population. For me, its more of a management strategy to increase my inspection, sanitation (excess propolis, wax, hidings spaces), and insuring there are adequate bees in the boxes. I have read second hand accounts of research (I don't have reference to the research, but is something we should find) that SHB are attracted to colonies without queens. Perhaps placing queen mandible pheromone in the hive could help prevent large SHB populations. Also, the lasted research I heard about states that pheromone traps are being created, but they need a manufacturer to get it to market. Again, you would need to find this research, as my second hand account does not mean anything. Good Luck.


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## devdog108

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> Coumaphus is not what I am talking about. I am talking about amdro, combat etc. They are not labeled for honey bees.
> I feel that breeding is the only cure for Shb.
> 
> Mike
> P.S. No hard feelings.



Your are correct, BUT, the msds for the Amdro did indeed include honeybee testing, so I feel better about that, if you believe what they asay!


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## beemandan

Natural Resources said:


> Has anyone checked with any of the chemical companies to see if they have attempted to get any other chemicals approved for use in the hive?


Fipronil is produced by Bayer. I'm pretty sure that Bayer would no longer be interested in anything that has to do with honey bees. I believe that Checkmite was approved long before they ran into problems and complaints from beekeepers. Today would surely be a different story. 
I don't know about any of the other compounds that beeks are using to control shb.


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## rrussell6870

NATURAL RESOURCES

ALL Chemicals used in these studies have been aproved for use on honey bees. The application process and the timing of applications is what we are testing. Residues are tested at every level, as are production rates (in queens, drones, healthy brood hatch, and in collection).

As to the traps containing pesticides, Fiprinol and Hydramethylnon are what most beekeepers are using... Both are considered NON-toxic to honey bees according to data sheets provided by the manufacturers as well as several private research organizations... 

As to the concern of long term effects in reproduction and developement due to contamination by beetles that have entered the traps and then walked through out the hive... These chemicals work differently in each pest that they are used to control... Roaches for instance, will consume it...leave the bait trap and return to the nest...the chemical causes the roaches to produce heavy amounts of fecal waste, while also causing severe damage to the reproductive system... in an average of 30 days time the roaches have all died from dehidration (all should be infected whether they eat the bait from the trap or not, because they ingest excrimate from each other), and there are no eggs to repopulate...

In the case of the beetles, they have a very different effect. The beetles sole purpose in life seems to be to feed heavily so it can lay eggs. In our first studies of the effects of these chemicals on beetles, an average of 14 in 2,000 beetles left the trap willingly before death... the furthest distance of travel (Before death) of the beetles that did leave the trap was 311 cm.

This was a pretty fair indication that the beetles carrying a chemical from the traps into the hives was not a large concern, especially considering the fact that the chemical is non-toxic to the honey bees.

Data reports will be available after the studies have been completed...if we were to release partial data, it could be disasterous in the long run.

As to your notation about the SHB being held off by strong hives...this has proven to just not be the case... actually we have found that the honey and pollen laiden hives appear to be what attracts beetles in the first place. Sure a heavier hive will have more bees to defend its opennings, but in the south, the heat is a major factor in the bees ability to ward off pests... the more bees that are required to create a good air circulation sytem to regulate the temp and humidity, the less bees there are to stand guard and the less effective those guards are due to the lack of space for chasing the beetles in the correct direction.

In a study using 50 hives (10 extremely heavy with bees, 10 average, and 10 slightly weaker than average, and 20 light splits), the first 3 hives to fall were of the strong set, next were the splits, then the weaker, then the remaining strong and all of the average ones were taken at once.

From this study we deduced that the stronger hives are what draw the beetles in, after building their numbers Greatly by taking a few stronger hives, the fresh beetles jump on the easiest sorce of food, then with there number well in the hundreds of thousands, they simply feast on everything in site.

I have said it before, and would like to say it again..."Our studies are NOT to promote any use of chemicals, they are simply to find what works, and rule out what does not". We are studying hives that are not treated with any chemical what so ever, and we are studying many different management methods for both chemical and none.

Thank you so much for you input, you seem like you will be very helpful in the fight to find a solution.


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## Barry

rrussell6870 said:


> As to the concern of long term effects in reproduction and developement due to contamination by beetles that have entered the traps and then walked through out the hive...


Yes, this should be a concern. One would have to look at possible contamination of everything within the hive; honey, wax, bees, pollen.


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## beemandan

rrussell6870 said:


> As to the traps containing pesticides, Fiprinol and Hydramethylnon are what most beekeepers are using... Both are considered NON-toxic to honey bees according to data sheets provided by the manufacturers as well as several private research organizations....


I'm sure that those msds state 'when used as directed' (and placing those compounds in bee hives isn't one of those uses) because the generic msds for fipronil states

_The substance is very toxic to aquatic organisms. This substance may be hazardous in the environment; special attention should be given to birds and honey bees. This substance does enter the environment under normal use. Great care, however, should be givento avoid any additional release, e.g. through inappropriate disposal._


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## beemandan

rrussell6870 said:


> In our first studies of the effects of these chemicals on beetles, an average of 14 in 2,000 beetles left the trap willingly before death...


I'd really like to see how you measured/determined this.


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## max2

beemandan said:


> I'd really like to see how you measured/determined this.


I would too. I have seen them crawl out of traps ( with Diatomacious earth) but I wonder how the numbers can be counted? It is the sort of imnformation we need. Thanks.


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## rrussell6870

The beetles and larva are very easy to collect for testing. Our researchers have found several methods that each work well ie..Beetle Jail traps (used with no bait or oil) collect beetles well, cd traps with a dab of pollen substitute also work well for beetles, we have also developed several of our own traps using plastic containers baited with a frame of fermented honey and pollen...these traps are able to hold many more beetles and are placed on pallets by themselves throughout the bee yards...the containers are clear and are very useful not only for capturing beetles..but also for quick inspections to alert you of beetle activity in yards, and of course the larva are simply collected from slimed hives.

The most accurate means of measuring the number of beetles used in a lab study is to simply count them while seperating them into petri dishes in groups of 5, 10, 20, & 40. 

The method used to determine the average number of beetles that will willingly leave (leave the cd traps without interference by man or bee) and the distance of travel before death once free is to use clear plastic hive bodies (2 deeps, 1 shallow, all 10 frame, & all filled with new frames of fresh wax foundation) compliled within the lab, free of any food except for the compounds placed in the cd traps, with no bees in them, and release the desired number of beetles into the front opennings and then sealed using foam cut-outs.

This study has been ran 40 times (10-Combat, 10-Amdro, 10-Maxforce, 10 Co-Ral 6.15).

The total numbers of beetles that were found outside of the traps was compiled to find the average based upon the number released into the hives, the distance of travel was measured by stranding 3" strips of tacky "Packing" tape between each frame at different hight intervals and allowing an equal amount of space between each strip of tape to allow the beetles plenty of room for travel throughout the mock hive.

As the beetles left the trap, most seemed to follow the walls alomg the bottom board and die quite quickly, few others would travel upwards onto the frames and were collected by the tape at random (none more than an inch past the bottom rail of the lower frames.

5 Control tests were ran as well to test the function of the tape. In these tests the traps were not "armed", but were baited with a pollen substitute. The tape collect beetles at every level with in the mock hive in each of the 5 tests.

The hives were carefully deconstructed and each beetle located and its location marked, then the marks were measured to determine the distance from the trap that the beetle was found.

In 3 tests of each chemical blue food coloring was added to powdered sugar and the bottom of the cd cases were coated with it before the baited poison was added.

This allowed us to verify the routes taken by each beetle that left the cd case, to determine if the beetle could have traveled all throughout the mock hive before dying and being located.

This also allowed us to verify that each beetle found outside of the trap had indeed been in the trap and did not die of natural causes or starvation/dehidration.

Thanks and hope this helps.


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## max2

" This also allowed us to verify that each beetle found outside of the trap had indeed been in the trap and did not die of natural causes or starvation/dehidration."

This is super-clever stuff!! 

Thanks for the explanation! Much appreciated.

max2


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## db_land

Have you tested hives setting on a hive-stand that's setting on a weed-block/plastic ground cover versus hives setting on a hive-stand directly above and exposed to weeds/grass/earth? I started using the weed-block approach last year (mainly for reducing weeding/mowing work). The hives are now on concrete blocks on top of the weed-block (black woven plastic type about 6 feet wide). I'm seeing an occasional SHB in the weed-block hives, but have not lost any (strong or weak) to SHB. On the other hand, I still have three hives (out of a total of 35) still without the weed-block. Also, all three of these are in shady locations (no weeds and therefore did not need the weed-block). I've heard that hives on hard/rocky earth are less bothered by SHB so this may be a similar effect. Or it could be that the plastic (whichs gets very hot in direct sun) cooks any beetle larvae/pupa/emerging adults close to the surface. I've also heard that hives in direct sun are also less bothered by SHB. Any thruth to this? All of this is anecdotal, but might be worth a quick study. THANKS for tackling this hugh SHB problem.


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## rrussell6870

db Land,

We have indeed been running several studies on ground covers... such as concrete (working VERY well), plastic cell (minimal effects), raised platforms (incomplete), and even tin sheets (ill effects).

One note that I have to make is that the basis of these studies are to find solutions for commercial applications such as yards that have 50+ hives in each one.

We have to consider that our earlier studies on the distance that larvae will travel when leaving a "slimed" hive to pupate, have shown that the larvae have no problem traveling 40+ feet from the hive to find soft soil to burrow in to.

With that in mind, the ground cover would either have to be quite large or hot enough to kill the larvae before they could reach the ground.

On 50 hives placed on concrete slabs extending 3' beyond the landing boards, and 3' behind the hives, the larva perished before reaching the soil... HOWEVER... These 50 hives were in the sun from sun-up until 4:30 pm each day, and they were located in central MS during July (98 degrees is the average high).

The plastic cell units did kill some larva in the full sun, but it was an estimated less than 20%.

The Tin roofing sheets did kill quite a lot of larva, however, the heat from the tin reached 132 degrees when the sun was hitting it...Hives had to be raised to a level of 2'8" about the tin to avoid excess heat, once this was done, the level of kill was slightly reduced and the raised hives were simply much harder to manage for a commercial operation.

We have a few studies that are still underway using raised platforms of different levels. But they have not ran a full course yet, so I had better not speculate about how they are going.

We do know that Permethrin 10% can be applied to the ground by spraying. This method is very important to keep the beetles from spreading from one hive to another in your yards. We hope to find a safe raised level that can be achieved using easily obtainable, affordable materials, and allow the Permethrin to be sprayed beneath the hives as well as limit direct access from the ground.

Many people have noted that Hives In Direct Sun Will Stand The Best Chances.... That is true....for cooler climates...NOT FOR THE DEEP SOUTH. Over 75 hives were easily destroyed while in direct sunlight by beetles that were released from containers 3.2 miles away...it took 4 days...

Another test on the theory that light and wind would "devert" the beetles was run using slimed supers stood up right in the middle of a field in direct sunlight for 3 weeks... result... wax was greatly deformed and melting...beetles were still present and larva of various ages were still present.

Sunlight does NOT ward off beetles. A strong hive WILL "Hold off" beetles, but bearding for airflow causes such a conjestion that the beetles can simply pass right through. 

Sorry to seem so gloomy. We have found many methods that DO work though... The most effective and efficient are indeed chemical treatments accompanied by a strict management policy, but there are several ways that you can keep the beetles "at bay" without the use of pesticides as well... Those studies are coming to a close soon, so I will be explaining them as soon as I can. Thanks and good luck.


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## max2

" Many people have noted that Hives In Direct Sun Will Stand The Best Chances.... That is true....for cooler climates...NOT FOR THE DEEP SOUTH. Over 75 hives were easily destroyed while in direct sunlight by beetles that were released from containers 3.2 miles away...it took 4 days..."

This shows how bad it can get. I have a friend who told me only yesterday that he places 4 AJ traps in the brood box AND 4 in the honey box.
We both agreed that the problem is worse with splits/nucs.


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## rrussell6870

Almost all of our studies will be complete on Sept. 1st 2010. Most of these studies have been ran for one year on that date... while the later studies will show the results of two years of testing.

We will be posting a link to the SHB Studies page of our research website as soon as each of the studies' reports have been completed.

Thanks for all of the input and we hope that our work will be of benifit to all that read it!


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## archiater

Hi Russell
I did my experiment with Tansy on my two hives with SHBs and they both failed. I put a fist sized bunch of tanzy flowers and stems rubberbanded together on the inner cover and in between frames in the first and second deeps. 

First of all the bees didnt abscond but the tansy did drive them to the other side of the hive and off the inner cover. I put the bunch in the left side of the bottom deep and it drove them to the right side and the bunch i put in the 2nd deep on the right it drove them to the left side such that 1/2's of each box was untouched...completely clean with no brood, wax buildup, nothing! THe hive was still crawling with SHBs and very small SHB larvae. 

I checked the bottom board insert to see if the tansy had any appreciable effect on varroa mites but the counts werent any greater or less than usual.

I didnt see any ants, moths or other insects in the hive though. I think the tansy may be effective in keeping them out but not the SHBs. Whats your website address so i can read your results? I will keep trying other herbs and flowers because i absolutely hate putting man-made chemicals into a hive.

Cheers


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## bradley39482

dear fellow bee keeps
i have done my own experiment on just one hive that i have, in my back yard, the bee's are russian, caucasian, mixed with a russian queen, i say this only for a statment of what i have. my bee's got infested with shb, the colony was strong so that is a plus, i had no slimming yet by shb larva, but i'm sure it was on the way, i took bisqueen rap, 6'X40' sheet around the beehive, very close , right on the ground, about a 6'X6' foot square around the hive, i then took wash gravel and put on the bisqueen plastic about 12 inches all around. waited 3 weeks before checking hive, i'm glad to say that i have had a 60% drop in shb beetles that can bee seen, have checked brood chambers very well, i doesn't stop them from coming in but does cut down on them coming back and totally destroying the hive from what i can tell, i know i'm no expert and very new at beekeep, but seems if you are a new beekeep in the south that this method of trying to control a pest seems to work, as far as larger hive populations, it might could help if the hives are not moved and are stationary.
hope this might help.


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## rrussell6870

archiater said:


> Hi Russell
> I did my experiment with Tansy on my two hives with SHBs and they both failed. I put a fist sized bunch of tanzy flowers and stems rubberbanded together on the inner cover and in between frames in the first and second deeps.
> 
> Good try man... We made several strengths of oil from tansy and once we finally found a strength that did not run the bees out, we started it in a study.
> 
> NOTE: The tansy oil is a natural repellant for almost ALL insects. It should not be used for prolonged periods of time in a bee hive, because the bee will leave areas of application completely unguarded. It does however work well against the beetles in the lab...so we will see if it can be used periodically as a preventive. Thanks for your good work! Its nice to be able to work with other bee keepers towards a common goal.


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## max2

I offered an " Introduction to Beekeeping" Workshop to a few people yesterday. As part of the day we opened all my 10 hives to have a " look and see" and for the participants to get a feel.

It was the participants which noted that there where a lot fewer SHB in the hives placed inside the poultry yard. Earlier counts also showed this.
Is anybody else making similar observations? Maybe we are onto something?


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## devdog108

I recently ran my own experiment on 3 hives that were placed on a cotton field with a friend and fellow beek. He had more SHB than i have ever seen and I knew leaving mine with his would be a really bad idea, but i did it anyway. I added Amdro and Combat gel to 2 CD cases and put 1 on the landing board and i removed a frame on the 3rd medium and laid the cd case upa gainst the left wall. The SHB on last check, a month ago, were everywhere, and I mean everywhere. I lost my weakest hive to robbing when the cotton dried up but the other 2 hives were very strong. I moved the hives last Thursday night back to my property and a quarantine yard because i didn't know the state of them and didnt want to bring all the SHB here to my home yard that have 1-5 in them at any given time. The Russian Hive was just as loaded when i added the Combat to it. When i checked them Friday, they had any SHB corraled on the top super between the frames and rests and there were so many in the traps that i could barely see through the clear glass. I did a full inspection on that hive and they are back to where they were 1-5 shbs running around. The Italian hive isn't doing as well. Same scenario, only difference is i used Amdro in it. They still had tons of SHB running around and the cd cases had a few, but not many shb in them like the Russian Hive. It was a very noteworthy difference between the 2 hives of almost equal strength. I do NOT want to use anything inthem, but it had gotten crazy. The Combat gel made a HUGE difference......at least between those 2 hives in 6 weeks.....


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## Kingfisher Apiaries

Y'all have SHB down under?


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## max2

We sure have and in some areas they have totally changed Beekeeping.

For a summary have a look here: http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/27_10638.htm


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## ronzo0424

russel have you ever thought of trying top entrances and sealing the bottom tight and/or putting 1/4 hardware cloth across the bottom so larvae can fall through into a caustic subtance(dont know enough about it to reccommend a chemical ) seems a good line of defence for you southerners would be to cut down on all the easy breeding grounds you offer the beetles. i would think cutting down their breeding cycles like this would surely offset the number of beetles. the beetles must love it down there like year round ground temperature, mountains of unused bee boxes full of honey and pollen. time to clean and run a tight ship. stop them beetles BEFORE they start ron. 
ps it always sounds good on paper lol


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## max2

I took some honey off my hives today. All have at least a couple of SHB but the numbers are down. I made a real effort with the traps and it seems to help.
I made an interesting observation in one hive only: when I take the inner lid off I usually squash any SHB I see. Often a bee will chase them. Today, for the first time, I saw a number of bees not just chasing them but actually tackling the beetles ( as in giving the beetle a solid hug) I assume that the bees tried to sting the beetle. The beetle seemed to survive.
I wonder is this a sign of bees learning to deal with the SHB?


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## criscojohn

Very new to beekeeping--gathering as much information as possible. Fortunately our hive has low numbers of SHB and would really like to keep it that way! I may have missed it, but what about the traps made by the fatbeeman? The ones made out of political sign with boric acid in them, closed off by Crisco (attractant for SHB)? Does the boric acid get spread around the hive? Is it harmful to the bees? Can you use that in a CD case? And what about grease patties for tracheal mites? If the SHB like the Crisco, wouldn't they go after the grease patties? Any information will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Chris


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## rrussell6870

ronzo0424 said:


> russel have you ever thought of trying top entrances and sealing the bottom tight


Ron,

We have indeed used many different entrance reducers and configurations... basic reducers allowing a 2" entrance do have a great effect on beetle populations... However, using other configurations such as top entrances and raised side entrances add a level of stress to the bees and the staff alike when used in commercial applications...

Again, I would certainly agree that basic reducers are a key to preventing infestation. Thanks for the input!

Russell Apiaries
Robert Russell


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## rrussell6870

max2 said:


> I took some honey off my hives today. All have at least a couple of SHB but the numbers are down. I made a real effort with the traps and it seems to help.
> I made an interesting observation in one hive only: when I take the inner lid off I usually squash any SHB I see. Often a bee will chase them. Today, for the first time, I saw a number of bees not just chasing them but actually tackling the beetles ( as in giving the beetle a solid hug) I assume that the bees tried to sting the beetle. The beetle seemed to survive.
> I wonder is this a sign of bees learning to deal with the SHB?


Max,

You are indeed onto something... We have been selectively breeding several hundred hives for the past 3 years to develope hygenic genetics to fight beetles... For the most part breeding bees that will fight the actual beetles is easy... (but they do get a little difficult to work as well)... the more important elements that we are working towards are:
1. Bees that are not detered by the slime...
2. Bees that will actively remove beetle larvae and clean comb that has been effected...
3. Bees that seal cracks and spaces to leave less room for beetles to lay...

I expect to have a line of bred queens producing this type of bees by the middle of next season.... Keep your fingers crossed! lol.


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## rrussell6870

criscojohn said:


> Very new to beekeeping--gathering as much information as possible. Fortunately our hive has low numbers of SHB and would really like to keep it that way! I may have missed it, but what about the traps made by the fatbeeman? The ones made out of political sign with boric acid in them, closed off by Crisco (attractant for SHB)? Does the boric acid get spread around the hive? Is it harmful to the bees? Can you use that in a CD case? And what about grease patties for tracheal mites? If the SHB like the Crisco, wouldn't they go after the grease patties? Any information will be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Chris


John,

Crisco does attract beetles, however, using a pollen substitute that has been lightly reduced with honey and allowed to ferment is second to none for beetle attracting. This can be mixed 1:1 with fipronil (such as combat roach gel) and placed in micro cd cases with a small hole made in each side. Our studies show that this method was far more productive than the plastic signs filled with boric acid and capped with crisco. 

Yes small traces of the boric acid does enter the hive and has a longer systemic effect in the wax than fipronil... Boric acids effect on the bees are minimal however considering the very small amount of traces left behind. The other down side to the sign material is the size of the openings... not all of the beetles will be able to fit in the holes, thus leaving laying females that can easily wipe out your hives even while the trap is in place.

Hope this helps.


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## max2

" 1. Bees that are not detered by the slime...
2. Bees that will actively remove beetle larvae and clean comb that has been effected...
3. Bees that seal cracks and spaces to leave less room for beetles to lay..."

You are doing incredibly useful work - much appreciated!!


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## max2

rrussell seems to be doing the best research on SHB and I would love to read an up-date.
Thanks.


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## max2

We had rather lousy weather here for quite some time - lots of rain ( we usually don't complain about rain, but enough is enough) and it has also been very humid. In my experience this is about the worst combination when dealing with SHB here.
I took some honey off about 3 weeks ago. We had a couple of lovely mornings but when I had time to look at the bees the weather would not play it's part.
This morning I had a chance to change the SHB traps ( I mostly use AJ traps).
Not surprising the population has increased and I had 2 Slime Outs - always an ugly picture.
Some personal observations:
- the population seem to be about the same in the sun and the shade ( maybe simply not enough sun to make a difference?)
- Hives which are strong producers of propolis had more SHB ( the SHB simply could not enter the trap - my assumption)
- Hives with lots of honey also seem to have a lot of SHB - no idea why?
- A number of hives are now actively chasing the beetles. Often when I tried to squash a beetle I had to be very careful not to squash a chasing bee.
- I use only Diatomatious earth in the traps and this seems to work well.
- I used to use just one trap per hive but have increased this to two per hive.

I was selling honey at the market last Saturday and two people came and complained about lack of bees. One lady ( she grows Christmas bush and only had a 5% yield/pollination) is willing to pay me to bring hives.
This is very unusual for this part of Australia.
My assumption is that wild hives are not dealing well with the SHB and are dying out.
There is lots to learn about this little pest and I'm constantly on the look-out for some hints.


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## Panhandle Scott

I read all the post and appreciate what RRussell is doing along with others. I got some good tips and pointers about controlling SHB. Where I live just out my back door the farmer alternates crops, this year it was cotton but the year before it was cantaloupes. Next year it might be watermelons or tomatoes.

Point is I was interested in the fact that SHB is attracted to fleshy melon type crops. I can't tell the farmer what to grow but it still can make me more proactive. I had seen a video somewhere that was in slo-mo that showed when a lid was popped for inspection on a hive of beetles flying in without the beek even knowing. They are apparently that quick.

Mr Cutts who came up with the Better Beetle Blaster lives just a few miles from me has to contend with the same crop issues as I. He said he also does a Guardstar drench around the hives but you do have to apply frequently.

I had thought of running a length of black plastic tubing thru the hive maybe a 1/4" in diameter with a tee junction that dropped into a trap. My thought was to place the openings of the tube at both sides of the entrance and hoping the beetles would use that dark hole first to hide in and eventually crawl their way thru to the trap. The bees I would think would propolize the tubing to the inside of the box but probably not right at the opening at the hive entrance. Anyway just a thought.


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## arcowandbeegirl

When applying the guard star drench to the ground, at what temperature does one start doing this? I did this a couple of times in the fall last year (just got bees end of summer). How often is it recommended? I read the tag, but it says apply as soon as active. thanks in advance!


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## AR Beekeeper

BeeGirl, did you have beetles in your colony last fall? I would not use the drench until the beetle populations start to build up in June/July and then only if the population starts to be more than the bees can control.

There is an association in Little Rock that will have members that can give you advice about controls needed in your area. You may not even need to use the drench. I have had beetles in small numbers (25 max per colony)for several years and have used no traps or drenches.


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## arcowandbeegirl

Thanks alot. I had a few beetles last fall, not many.


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## rrussell6870

arcowandbeegirl said:


> When applying the guard star drench to the ground, at what temperature does one start doing this? I did this a couple of times in the fall last year (just got bees end of summer). How often is it recommended? I read the tag, but it says apply as soon as active. thanks in advance!


During the cooler months SHB move into and above the cluster for heat... it is then that the bees begin to see them as less of a threat, which could mean big trouble in spring...

Ground drenching is not meant to kill beetles, but rather to kill SHB larvae as it travels to the ground to pupate... Thus it is only truely necessary once a hive has SHB larvae hatching inside of it (aka "slimed").

As the larvae feed, they produce a slimy feces that is a natural deterant to bees... This causes the bees to abandon frames as the larvae spread... very soon, there is no space left in the hive for bees, and the larvae reaches adulthood and crawls out of the hive and into the ground to become a beetle.

Guardstar is 40% permethrin... 38.5% permethrin can be purchased from your local livestock/feed store for a fraction of the cost. 1 oz makes 1 gallon of mix. This works best when applied as a drench in a ratio of 1 gallon per 4 sq ft (1 gal per hive), or further as SHB can travel very long distances to reach suitable soil. Permethrin must be reapplied every 30 days and more often after a heavy rain.

If a functional ground cover is a possibility for your situation, it would certainly be the most cost and labor effecient way to go. Black plastic, Concrete, Gravel, or Corrugated Tin work the best. Roofing shingles laid on the ground to completely cover the earth throughout your bee yard has been suggest before, but we found that the shingles became sticky in the sun and cause unwanted fumes in the beeyard as well as unwanted foot prints in our lab. lol.

The key to SHB control is to start each year "Beetle Free", then keep traps well baited and stay on top of your yards all year...

It only takes one female beetle to lay 2,000 eggs and slime a hive, which will in turn produce more than enough beetle to slime the rest of your hives as well as those of all of the beekeepers within 75+ miles of you. 

Another issue that is overlooked is that beetles leave scent traces in the hives as they crawl across the comb... this scent is a small dose of the deterant that the larvae will later create... The purpose is to:
1. Stop the queen from laying so much brood, giving the beetles much less opposition, when the hive dwindles down, they will begin to lay.
2. Create a trail for other SHB to follow, so they can congregate in larger numbers within each hive...making their deterants work faster and bettering their chances of overtaking the colony.

SHB and Bees can NEVER coexist... SHB depends on the destruction of the honey bee colony... They may look harmless when you see them here or there, but either you get rid of them, or they will destroy the colony one day. Some may think that they have had beetles for a long time, but the bees are "handling" them... Those beetles are most likely male... and they were very fortunate to have gotten by thus far... but each may billions of females travel northward... 

Panhandle Scott, you are correct to be worried about the fruit crops... The issue doesnt so much come from the fruit as it grows, but more so from the harvest... Melons that are deformed, split, or too small to harvest are usually left in the fields to rot... this is where the trouble comes in... SHB can feed and lay in these fruits just like they can a hive... a field with 800 melons left for the SHBs is just like having 800 hives slimed in your back yard. Stay on top of your traps, and I suggest you use firmented pollen substitute as bait... It was more than 3 times as effective than any other substance. 

Hope this helps.


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## db_land

rrussell,
Do you have a recipe for the "fermented substitute pollen"? Also, have you tried just putting it (the shb bait) in a trap external to the beehives/yard (kind-of like a japanese beetle trap)? Just wondering how effective that might be or if it attracts even more shb to the yard?
Many thanks again!


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## bradley39482

hey Robert
and fellow beekeepers
i posted a thought a while back about placing plastic sheeting on the ground around the bee hive, this was mainly for the hobbiest like me, and im a new bee keep. i also bought 2 beetle traps that are screened bottom boards and placed vegetable oil in the pan under the screen, i forget what the trap is called but it works very well, have checked both hives of carni's and russians. no beetles in the frames, also have reduced the entrance to 2" opening for winter. i know this does not help the commercial beekeep, but it certainly helped mine. the only draw back to this is checking the pan every two or three weeks. the cd tray that robert came up with also helps very well in the summer! 
hope this helps
Merry Christmas!


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## rrussell6870

db_land said:


> rrussell,
> Do you have a recipe for the "fermented substitute pollen"? Also, have you tried just putting it (the shb bait) in a trap external to the beehives/yard (kind-of like a japanese beetle trap)? Just wondering how effective that might be or if it attracts even more shb to the yard?
> Many thanks again!


You can just mix a little honey in with any pollen sub or pollen itself.... leave it out for a bit and it will ferment quickly.

Yes we have tried many exterior traps... we will be offering one later this winter on our website... we were of course concerned about drawing more beetles to the yards, but the exterior traps are nothing compared to a hive fanning in the sun. Lol. The traps work well because they are void of queen scents and they will come with a packet of Chem free bait... leaving it up to the buyer as to whether they wish to add chems.


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## rrussell6870

Brad,

Entrance reducers are a very important part of beetle control starting in fall. I suggest that they go on early, and come off late, after heavy build up can better protect the hive. Thanks for bringing that up.


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## max2

I use 2 to 3 AJ beetle traps in each hive. I found that by emtying them very regularly I can get the population down consderably during our current warm and humid season. I use only DE.
I would like to do a more controlled experiment but lack the time after our floods - a busy period.


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## ACBEES

Fipronil is the main ingredient used in all the "spot on" flea and tick treatments used in cats and dogs. In dogs at least, it has been suspected but not yet proven to cause fertility problems and nervous disorders. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe fipronil is an imidocloprid(IMD).


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## SL Tx

I have heavy SHB pressure, especially at home where I keep an Ulster observation hive. I have found that a screened inner cover offers the pests (what they think is) an easy entrance into the hive. But I use aluminum window screen to keep them out so they just hang around on top of the screen (squishing them is an enjoyable pastime when I peek in the hive), I shim the telescoping cover up about 1/8" to let them get in. In summer there may be a dozen or more SHB's on top of the screen trying to get inside, but the most amazing thing is what happens when I first remove the telescoping cover....I've had as many as 21 SHB's fly onto the screened cover trying to invade the hive. The sudden scent of the open hive seems to be more than they can stand and they fly in, appearing from nowhere! Ventilated covers (with aluminum window screen), AJ's traps (with vegetable oil) and permethryn soil drenches have prevented SHB infestation...so far...knock on wood. The observation hive is, by definition, weak and it is a battle. To put some numbers on it I wrote down: in 2009 I squished 207 beetles and killed 185 in the AJ's trap.


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## wcubed

Interesting thread!! rr obviously knows more about beetle trapping than all the rest of us put together, but he's asking for thoughts. I'll bite, because I do have a thought. But first have a question. Do you know that a dunking in vegetable oil is lethal ultimately - even if the beetle has time to "walk it off?" The reason I ask, the evidence suggests that the beetle survives a mild dunking and all of the traps that I have seen make no effort to constrain the beetle from leaving. The way out is as convenient as the way in. Will provide more details, but would like to see your answer.
Walt


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## max2

I found oil messy and only use Diathomaciuos Earth (DE). It works. It is possible for the odd beetle to crawl out but he is not likely to survive.
DE is cheap and effective.


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## wcubed

Thanks, max2. I have no knowledge of the properties of diatom. earth, but it looked almost dry in a picture seen here. My guess is that like oil, it is not a contact killer, and more beetles are leaving than you might think. Beetles tracking either oil or DE out of the trap are not in the best interest of the bees. Keep in mind that you only see a small fraction of the beetles present at any one time.

Will describe my "thought" up front and add background/rationale later - if there is any interest. To be called a trap the device must keep the target species from leaving. We have a prototype of a trap in construction that does a better job of meeting that requirement. It's based on the observation that a rigid-bodied insect has trouble negotiating a 180 degree turn at a sharp edge, like a knife blade. Even a flexible creature like a caterpiller will flail the air with the front end looking for something to grasp at the edge of a leaf.

Applying that concept to the beetle trap, a vertical fence is placed inside the entry slots to contain the beetles. The fence is made of aluminum roofing valley "tin" which is quite thin. The fence stands out from the interior surface of the trap at 90 degrees and is a quarter inch high. The beetle that falls through the fenced in slots at the top will have a rough time getting out on foot.
Visualize a trap that looks much like a follower board. It replaces the outside frame of a super. The prototype has three fenced slots in the topbar. No magic in the slot arrangement - the valley tin on-hand would surround a 3 inch slot. Havn't built the box yet, but anticipate one side will have clear plastic to view the contents. There are also two ports in the topbar to fill and/or flush.

That's enough to describe the concepts. 

Thanks to Barry for a quick addition of an older article that describes some of the advantages of the beetle in penetrating a hive - now found in POV.
Walt


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## max2

Grant ( in a different thread) said:" I had five dead-outs last year resurrect themselves with swarms that moved in before I could get back to those yards and retrieve the equipment.
I didn't even get a chance to clean out the dead bees. Maybe that's what really attracts swarms!"

I find this interesting. I have one hive I'm sure had slime-out on a couple of frames but recovered. I have also noticed increased chasing of SHB by bees. They seem to wrestle with the beetle and appear to try to sting them. I have not seen any being successful.
Have others noticed clean out by bees or any successes with stinging?


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## hoodswoods

As a hobbiest, I can implement any type of SHB control I would like without any regard to maintenance or cost. Since I am not yet retired and have more pressing obligations than my bees, time becomes my most precious commodity. The methods I use are not necessarily appropriate for commercial keepers, primarily because of cost/hive, nor those who embrace chemical-free treatment/control or allowing bees to evolve natural resistances (although, other than a screened bottom board, there are no treatments I use that I feel cannot be eliminated, nor modified 'organically' that ultimately affects SHB management).

Here is my control methods.

1. SBB over rear-removable oil pan enclosed in a box with #6 woven stainless wire mesh - everything but bees fall thru.

a. The wire size is critical in that is has to be the size SHBs fall thru easily - #8 might work for the VSHB species. This could be an experiment someone could do and get quantitative results.

b. A pan of vegetable oil is what I use (the pan and screen make up my bottom board - not something just sitting on the ground), although others swear by other mediums ie mineral oil, diatomaceous earth... Whether the SHB drowns, or arrives there DOA, I'm not sure - some suggest that they would back-stroke their way back to freedom. This also could be an experiment - dump live beetles into the different mediums and see if the make it out alive. Allowing them to just fall thru the screen onto the ground doesn't make sense to me - One would have to deal with the draft issue and probably as many bugs are entering up thru the screen as are falling down.

The perfect thing would be to line the bottom of the pan with those pest glue boards - nothing can escape them, including small rodents (observed FACT). They are pricey - I'd be interested if anyone has an idea of the type of glue they use, it would be easy and cheaper to make your own, and stays sticky for centuries.

2. Absolutely no shims or cracks anywhere in the outer box(s) of the hive (top, bottom, sides) other than the singular bottom entrance here in the south (winter exception when I also run a top entrance), otherwise too much open space for bees to control. This includes the inner top cover with 2 layers of window screen covering the middle hole, and EDPM rubber weather stripping stapled to box bottoms between all boxes and cover to fill voids in non-square (flat) lumber or construction.

a. This stuff is a bit pricey (especially for the commercials), but we all have boxes just a bit out of square - when that gap occurs between one surface and another, this is just another unguarded access into the hive.

3. Limit as much as possible areas inside the hive that the bees can't get to - for example since I use the plastic hive-top feeders-in-a-super box (ie the Mann Lake FD-110), I fill/cover the entire bottom of the plastic insert between it and the box except where the bees crawl up thru to get to the feed. I use minimal-expanding spray foam, cut the excess flat to the bottom, fill the air holes with gorilla glue and then spray multiple coats of truck-bed liner paint over the entire bottom.

a. My first encounter with these type of feeders taught me a lesson - I had removed one to clean up and was banging it on the driveway to remove water and other junk, and out fell a bunch of hive beetles. Subsequent banging produced subsequent beetles - they were all hiding sandwiched up in those bee-inaccessable crooks and cranies.

b. Think like a bee - make the inside of the hive as flat and square a possible.

4. Only add expansion boxes and frames when the lower box is jamming full of bees.

5. Ground drench very late in the evening with permethrin around hives once a month spring, summer and fall.

a. I use a garden sprayer on very low pressure and almost a stream vs spray to avoid air-bourne mist and splashing and treat out to about 6 feet from each hive. It is said that SHB likes to pupate in sandy soils - maybe that is why we don't experience the same problems as those to the south of us since we generally have clay vs the sandy/loam soil to the south - after all we are only 100 miles or so separated. Ants aren't a big problem for me, but this helps with them as well.

Since I don't observe a bunch of bees crawling around on the ground (other than those fighting robbers or are in a state near death anyway), and because of the supposed short contact toxicity period of permethrin, I am unconcerned, nor have I observed any symptoms of poisoning.

6. Formic pad treatment one as late in the spring that temps allow, and one as late in the fall (after harvesting) as temps allow.

a. I don't use any other in-hive chemicals - besides mites, the beetle drop during treatment is substantial.

7. A couple of powdered sugar innoculations - this is not part of my SHB management, but is what I do and I don't believe it affects SHB counts what-so-ever.

No fancy widgets or anything miraculous. I cut my SHB counts drastically from one year to the next, but they have never been destructive to my hives (yet). A strong, populous, tight and secure hive goes a long way in taking care of itself.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Mr. Russell, we will be trying a modified Jap Beetle trap with a particular concoction in them placed about 150 feet away from our beeyards in the shade. Maybe it will work. Something that we did discover: In July we treated with the blue bucket (Apiguard) and placed a heaping hive tools worth right on the back of the frames. Well, it soaked into the wood of the frames and ran the hive beetles completely out of the colonies. We stayed beetle free through out the fall. I will be trying this again this year to see if there is something to it. Sincerely Ted Kretschmann, Alabama Bee Company:thumbsup:


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## Truchaos

rrussell6870 said:


> DevDog,
> 
> You are exactly right! The troubles are multiplying due to the spread of the beetles... A yard that has only seen a few beetles can quickly be overrun by the introduction of infested hives, nuks, packages, etc..


So true. 

I had a dozen hives with zero hive failures in the last three years. My bee yard was completely mite and beetle free until I purchased a few packages from Georgia. Very quickly those hives had rapidly expanding beetle populations that spread to the other hives. This spring I have one hive left. No matter what I tried, traps etc. the beetles were relentless and many of the colonies absconded, the rest died.


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## Truchaos

rrussell6870 said:


> Hey Max,
> 
> Yes Fipronil and Hydramethylnon are both pretty serious insecticides. They have been VERY popular when used inside of traps as bait/kill. Thus the "trap" is actually only acting as a protective barrier to keep the bees away from the insecticide. *Based on the data sheets provided be the MSDS and USDA, they are actually NON-TOXIC to honey bees.*



Fipronil is quite toxic to honeybees and it's LD50 is < 5 nanograms per bee. That's lethal to honey bees 50% of the time at a concentration of less than 5 billionths of a gram. 


See Page 17 of this study
http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/fipronilrev.pdf


Hydramethylnon is virtually non-toxic to the honey bee.


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## TonyC

This is a fantastic thread!

I have one hive that I regularly see SHBs in. To me it seems like a lot of beetles, but after reading this thread maybe my numbers aren't so bad. In any case I want to keep them under control and am reading all I can to see what others are doing.

The "FatBeeMan" and John Seaborn in interviews on the Organically Managed Beekeeping podcast mentioned using PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE boric acid in plastic corrugate sealed with shortening and spreading FOOD GRADE diatomaceous earth on the ground around the hive as safe methods to control small hive beetles.

So far I have spread diatomaceous earth around my hive. You can get it at most any real feed & seed store since it is fed to livestock to control pests and parasites. It is such a fine dust, that to insects that crawl through it it is like walking or crawling through razor blades and they die. 

I took it a step further and spread some diatomaceous earth in the tray under my screened bottom board. I was hoping to catch the larvae as they fall out of the hive to go to the ground to pupate. To my surprise I had a couple of dozen adult beetles in the tray a few hours after I put the earth in the tray. Some of them were still alive but just barely. They were on their backs, legs up and their legs were moving...I doubt that they lived very long after I saw them.

At least to me this seems to be working. And it is non toxic...of course if the bees get in it it likely still deadly to them as well because of the abrasive nature of it.

I have used oil in beetle traps with little luck so I am thinking about mixing a paste of shortening and diatomaceous earth and putting it in a trap. My hope is that the beetles will be attracted to it because of the shortening and then they eat the paste, diatomaceous earth will chew up the beetle's insides. The mixture with shortening combined with putting it inside a beetle trap would keep the dust away from the bees.

Any thoughts?

TonyC


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## max2

DE works well for me in AJ and similar traps. I understand that it does not work in trays ( under the bottom board ) as it picks up moisture.
Do NOT mix with shortening as this will render the DE ineffective. I check my traps very regularly and change the DE each time - always trap lots of SHB.


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## TonyC

I have used DE in a tray under my screened bottom board for a couple of weeks. I was surprised at the number of dead and dieing beetles in the tray after just a few hours. I did notice that the DE seemed to bind together because of moisture (and it's not even humid yet!). I tried shaking the tray side to side to break up the DE. That seemed to work a little. 

I just bought an old fashioned flour sifter and am going to try sifting the beetles out of the DE. This should also "fluff up" the DE maybe it will work longer....I hope. This would likely be too much trouble if I had dozens of hives (I only have one hive).

Rather than mixing the DE and shortening what about putting the DE in a trap with shortening in the trap as bait? 

TonyC


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## max2

"Rather than mixing the DE and shortening what about putting the DE in a trap with shortening in the trap as bait?"
Just keep the two seperate - all worth a go


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## jtow

Just checking with Mr Russell as to updates on your various studies on SHB?


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## rrussell6870

We know how to kill them, keep them from reproducing, how they travel, what brings them to the yard, and the methods that they use to take down a hive (both weak and strong alike)... currently, there are several organizations pressing for the approval of control methods as well as cooperative efforts between growers and beekeepers... this is the first step in getting the spread and seasonal destruction under control... but until those methods are in place, do your very best to keep your hives alive kill every single beetle that you can... sterility efforts are also being considered after noting these effects from the use of several types of mite control agents in multiple regions... that is a last resort type of scenario as the effect boundaries of that type of assault can be quite dangerous... as of right now, "CheckMite" when used in traps is approved for control... We offer a substance called Beetle Juice which we developed during our studies that can be used to draw beetles from the combs into traps... in Australia, Fipronil is now approved in a baited trap... hive placement is helpful as well, as a mixture of full sun and afternoon shade can keep the beetle issues down while maintaining the colonies health... blank space, cracks, frame spacers, frame feeders, patties, pollen traps, excessive fanning, etc, are all dangerous when beetles are present... and as always, keeping traps fresh and clean is important... of equal importance is the timely control of slimed hives, as the reproduction and spread of the beetles is very rapid and can effect not only your other hives, but also those of the beekeepers within 35+ miles from you...

Stay alert, and kill em all... the only beetle that can't destroy a bee hive is a dead beetle... good luck!


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## The Professor

Has anyone looked into the Sterilization Insect Technique for SHB? In essence, the technique irradiates very large numbers of the male insect which when released into the wild mates with females which then have no offspring. By overwhelming the population with sterile males in comparison to wild males, the population can be brought down. Just wondering if this might be a possibility for SHB.


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## Mbeck

An excellent thread.
Thank You for starting it.
Are SHB attracted to strawberries in the absence of Melons?


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## max2

"Almost all of our studies will be complete on Sept. 1st 2010. Most of these studies have been ran for one year on that date... while the later studies will show the results of two years of testing.

We will be posting a link to the SHB Studies page of our research website as soon as each of the studies' reports have been completed."( aug 2010)

Russell - would love to get my hands on the results. Are they available?


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## rrussell6870

Still waiting on red tape. Lol. There were several researchers involved, so that different environments could be included... unfortunately, we can not release the cooperative studies until each of the researchers have completed their reports, and a few have asked for extensions, which were granted... so for now, its just a waiting game... but I can answer some questions so long as they are not directly pertaining to formulations, corporations that may be requesting emergency approvals, or any open reports.


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## Bodhi

rrussell6870 said:


> Yes Fipronil and Hydramethylnon are both pretty serious insecticides. ... Based on the data sheets provided be the MSDS and USDA, they are actually NON-TOXIC to honey bees.


:scratch:
Fipronil was
also found to be highly toxic to honey bees

-- Highly toxic to bees,

Honeybee [toxicity] ratings are: (Very High)

The second link is for the generic MSDS for Fipronil


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## rrussell6870

Not to take up for a chemical, but fipronil is probably the least dangerous chem when used properly to control hive pests... the toxicity levels that are quoted were only in high dosage or direct dosage cases... the uc Davis info that you posted is incorrectly highlighted as "very high" toxicity, fipronil is a level II (2) which indicates "high" toxicity... the data in the link states that... 

Again, I am not trying to take up for the chemical, just think that the facts should be better understood, so people can make the right decisions... extremely high potency forms of fipronil have been and are used on crops and in water supplies causing major bee losses... In France, a miscalculation of potency in a farm compound product caused extreme bee losses... the uses of fipronil in a shb control formulation would be much much less potent that what is sprayed on the crops that our bees visit, the water sources that we and our bees drink from, and even lower than the trace amounts that the fda allows in most of the meats that we eat... and of course, it must be kept in traps where bees can not reach it in the first place...

The concern of most people is that shb may enter the traps, feed on the fipronil/shb bait compound, then leave the traps and travel throughout the hive before finally dying, thus leaving traces of the fipronil in the hives... the answer to this is that the traces left by shb leaving the traps are so minuscule that they are not even detectable in most tests... and that the traces that can be detected are of such a low potency level that it is considered non-toxic to honey bees. 

That said, you have to use good sense and be responsible with what you are ok with putting in your hives... for the concerned naturalist, this would mean "will this kill my hive(s), cause them to become weakened to the point of falling prey to other issues, and/or would this be something that would contaminate my honey or wax and cause troubles from consumption or use?... the use of high potency fipronil on crops and water supplies has been the cause of bee losses in the past, and will be again in the future... but low potency controlled access application in hives can be a safe alternative to slimed hives without threatening our wild honey bee and/or alternative pollenaters.

Hope that makes more sense.


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## Bodhi

rrussell6870 said:


> ... the uc Davis info that you posted is incorrectly highlighted as "very high" toxicity, fipronil is a level II (2) which indicates "high" toxicity... the data in the link states that...


I stand corrected, bad cut and paste on my part. That one, does in fact, read 'toxic'.

Do you suppose you could provide a source to support this statement: "Based on the data sheets provided be the MSDS and USDA, they are actually NON-TOXIC to honey bees." ?

When I look at the MSDS I see: "-- *Highly toxic* to bees, lizards, and gallinaceous birds"


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## max2

This paper is quite informative and shows the results of using a trap with Fibronil. The trap is the one commercially available in Australia and very similar to a carefully ( meaning no space big enough for a bee to enter) constructed CD trap. http://www.apithor.com.au/images/pdf/levot_2008.pdf
I agree with all of you that we can't be careful enough BUT we need to get the SHB as much under control as possible . And like rrussell6870 I'm not pushing any chemical.


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## rrussell6870

http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/FI/fipronil.html

According to Oxford university, fipronil is leveled as "toxic" to honey bees, "very toxic" to aquatic organisms..."""""Very toxic to aquatic organisms. Toxic to fauna and to bees."""""


Toxicity ratings...

ORL-RAT LD50 97 mg kg-1

IHL-RAT LC50 680 mg m-3 /4h

SKN-RAT LD50 > 2000 mg kg-1

As I pointed out in my previous post, the dosage in the key here... a lethal dose, killing 50% of the test subjects via oral administration would require 97 mg kg-1 of pure fipronil compound... a lethal concentrate killing 50% of test subjects via inhalation would require them to inhale 680 mg m-3/4h... a lethal dose killing 50% of test subjects administered via skin absorption would require them to absorb 2,000 mg kg-1... the level of toxicity given to a compound reflects the percentage of test subjects that these dosage amounts would kill... ie, "very toxic"- 50%+, "toxic"- 50%-, "non-toxic"-0%... to be frank, it would take a funnel and a sledge hammer to get these amounts into a honey bee within the dosage period... so for this much of the full strength pure form to only kill less than 50% of the test subjects, then 1/40th the dosage of a highly diluted compound would be in the level of non-toxic... again, we are not discussing full strength pure fipronil here, but a compound form of much much lesser strength... this is a product that would be closer to the compound levels that we were considering.....

http://www.google.com/m/url?client=...gQFjAF&usg=AFQjCNFi6NOs-LuXx78etOR9oKKYjPLzvQ 

let's please move on to discussing approved or otherwise effective means of shb control... this thread was started last season in order to take in the thoughts of beekeepers as to what ideas they may have of things that we could test during a study where we sacrificed a little over 1,000 colonies to try to find more information on when, how, and why shb destroy honey bee colonies, and what methods were the least invasive, yet most effective at controlling shb, limiting their reproduction, and protecting the natural health of the colonies while doing so... I do not work for a chemical corporation, nor will I ever... the health and ultimately the existence of honey bees, managed or wild (feral or swarms) is under extreme threat here in the US and many other nations... no I am not an advocate of pesticides because they do kill our managed, wild bees, and our other natural pollenaters... but on the other side of that same coin, shb can quickly become an even greater threat to them, so I am open to any solutions... we need to put political agendas aside at least long enough for us to work together to address this issue...


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## Ted Kretschmann

Irradiation!!!! Ted


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## blkcloud

In short what trap would you suggest I buy? My internet surfing time is limited and I really dont have time to read everthing that has been written on this subject. thanks!


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## arcowandbeegirl

In my experience, i prefer the freeman beetle trap. Its a screened bottom board with a heavy duty plastic tray under it. I put vegetable oil in mine and do often see some dead shb in the oil. Also I like being able to clean out the tray, put in a sticky board and do a mite count.


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## guyross

With a honey pollen mixed with a small dot of max work good for me.https://picasaweb.google.com/113400947700542391177/CDSHBTrap?authuser=0&feat=directlink


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## Intheswamp

Since we're in peak of shb season I'm wondering if anybody had any revelations regarding battling shb? Any observations to note?

I mentioned in another thread about building a double screen out of two pieces of #6 mesh. I was thinking that if the screens are separated by only 1/4" or so and the squares were offset from each other that the bees might not as readily fall/venture through the screen into an oil tray. The shb should easily fall through the two meshes.

I've also wondered about setting up a "bait" hive for shb. Maybe a little honeycomb, a nice sized blob of Combat roach bait...all in a nicely sealed up bee-proof "nuc". I wonder if the shb would be attracted to it?

I've read about queen juice where beeks will put their pressure tested queens in a jar of alcohol and let it "steep". Later it's used for swarm lures. What about "steeping" hive beetles in alcohol and using it for luring the shb to where you want them?

I'm also still strongly considering using H. Indica nematodes around the hives. 

So...anybody got any new thoughts or observations?

Ed


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