# Club hopping, finding lots of TF bees here



## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Yes, I have been club hopping. I am on my third club in two months now, 5 meetings in all, soon to be six. The more people I meet, the more TF bees I am finding out about. Seriously, in southern California, we have gentle, feral, resistant bees that make a lot of honey. Why isn't anybody making queens and selling them???? If I didn't have a thousand other callings, I would start a feral breeding program and have tons of genetics to choose from.

Got some great information tonight at the new club, and I won all the good prizes in their raffle too (i crease my tickets). The raffle guy asked me where I go to school-guess I looked less like a thirty year old today, Win-win-win!

Apparently there are massive numbers of treatment free colonies in southern california and so many seasoned TF beeks i know of now (two more underground clubs with an active following of TF beekeepers I found out about today) And they all know of each other. I am learning all the big players' names. TF is like the secret society you have to know the password to join.
I'm really excited to know how viable and simple our keeping our local bees can be. I am so excited to get another swarm of feral bees soon!
I think we can lead the nation in revitalizing honey bee genetics and developing bees which need no treatment. Someone should be doing more research on our feral bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

diymom said:


> (two more underground clubs with an active following of TF beekeepers I found out about today) And they all know of each other. I am learning all the big players' names. TF is like the secret society you have to know the password to join.


Same thing here.

When I was attempting TF which lasted 2 years, I was an open book about what I was doing and people came, took a look, and I was trying to get other people on board. But now, there are local people (claiming) to be TF but it's like a secret society. No way anyone is allowed to see the hives, and they even talk about particular beekeepers who are "doing it" but will not even say who they are, it's a secret.

I'm wondering what's to hide. Either the stories are not true, or TF beekeeping around here attracts paranoid people. One guy has been going on about his amazing small cell TF bees, I asked if I could have a look, no way. Then it came up about some queens I got from stock showing some mite resistance, the guy immediately is all over me super friendly wanting me to give him some. This from a guy who has only ever given me the cold shoulder and is totally unsharing, after I been waiting years for these queens. Told him no, heck I wouldn't trust him to even allow me to follow their progress and the supplier wants me to keep detailed records of them and give him feedback.

Some folks will say this is because TF beekeepers get a hard time so stay hidden. What I can say is I got flack when I was TF from people who treat, and I got flack when I treated from people who are TF. End of day who cares? Any beekeeper whichever side of the fence should just say what they are doing and why, be open to constructive critisism but not worry about destructive critisism that's the other guys problem.

What's an underground club? Secret?


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## rw willy (Dec 7, 2014)

diymom said:


> ,... I would start a feral breeding program and have tons of genetics to choose from.
> 
> Someone should be doing more research on our feral bees.


They wouldn't be "feral" once you start breeding them? Actually, once captured and hived I would not consider them "feral" My $.02


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Well it may be secret in the world - but not here on bee source - there is a whole thread here with members contacts


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

If only it was so easy! 

I, too, live in an area with a strong population of feral colonies apparently living TF. But they are not, of course, actually _surviving_ long-term. They are just on an endless (and sad) treadmill of boom and die (from mites and mite-vectored diseases.) The bee-colony sites are the only perennial thing here. Close monitoring of the feral sites within walking distance from my farm yard shows that the sites aren't usually inhabited to/through the second winter with the same set of bees.

Yet my bees, which were all swarms to a long-standing (two decade plus) bee-site in my barn walls, once hived and well-treated, actually do live a long time under care. I am entering my fourth summer with two out of the three original queens that were cut-out in 2013. (Though sadly I discovered yesterday that one of those - like the third one last summer - is being superseded now. I will miss her a lot.) And even when the queen is superseded, the colony itself carries on.

Lots of people around here are big on TF, but they have to keep acquiring new bees to be TF with.

You have the added challenge of being in an AHB-area, which will affect your business planning if you are thinking of breeding and selling open-mated queens. 

How are your bees doing, now? Did you get good results from the sugar dusting you did? 

Your thread title gave me a chuckle.

Enj.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

diymom said:


> Why isn't anybody making queens and selling them????


That's the $64,000 question.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...fference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/

My bees are feral survivors they came from swarm traps and swarm calls, I treated my first year because that's what everyone said if I was to keep them alive. After not seeing a high mite drop from OAV in late summer I quite treating. I kept an eye on SBB drops for a while after that but just never saw that many. Now; I don't worry about drone comb they make what them want. I don't worry about mites; I don't look for them, I don't count them, I don't selective breed for them. 

I have but one worry; need to make sure they have room so they won't swarm. With just under 50 hives in 3 apiaries this is enough of a task for me.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> ....What I can say is I got flack when I was TF from people who treat, and I got flack when I treated from people who are TF. End of day who cares? Any beekeeper whichever side of the fence should just say what they are doing and why, be open to constructive critisism but not worry about destructive critisism that's the other guys problem.
> 
> ....


Couldn't have said any better.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I guess part of it is that TF solutions are local, and being in an Africanized area, one can't just start exporting bees everywhere, even if you have some gentle ones. Its another subject, but there needs to be a lot more study on the manner and scale of infiltration of African genetics (and vice versa) in North American stock so some rational realistic policy can formulated. My Saskatraz queens were mated in California, so who knows, maybe I have a bit of African genetics floating around. 

I agree those bees need to be looked at closely to see how they do it. Would be cool if the group I'm involved in could sample in your area. I'll have to suggest it to them as a good excuse to vacation down there.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

flower - running 300 myself TF - they can say what they want - I know my bees. Anyway keep on keeping on. And next spring I will have queens, nucs, & singles for sale. Will be making them up in 4 weeks - right after my main honey flow quits

Now on to another note - DIYmom - you cheating on us??? HAHAHA


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

the first rule of fight club is you don't talk about fight club. :no: LOL


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> That's the $64,000 question.


come on down and help me graft from that colony I got out of the bee tree that's been going for 5 seasons. LOL


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Same thing here.
> 
> When I was attempting TF which lasted 2 years, I was an open book about what I was doing and people came, took a look, and I was trying to get other people on board. But now, there are local people (claiming) to be TF but it's like a secret society. No way anyone is allowed to see the hives, and they even talk about particular beekeepers who are "doing it" but will not even say who they are, it's a secret.
> 
> ...


I think the people on the bleeding edge are a bit "different". Its probably the nature of the thing. Maybe its the ideas we need to pay attention to, not the people. 

I try to be an open book, but I tend to keep my mouth shut at the local meetings. My philosophy is very different from most. I happened to get my first nuc from the current president of the local club. I didn't take any of his advice, but I kept in touch with him and let him know how I was doing. When I overwintered 6 of 8 nucs that I started that first summer, he started to pay attention to what I was doing because it was a new concept to him. By seeing nice foundationless comb, it opened up some other possibilities for him. By still having hives after he thought everything would die is also interesting to him. Now he wants me to give some presentations of some of the stuff I'm doing and some of the outcomes of the research group that are tracking some of my hives. I'll do my best to keep inflammatory content to a minimum (Ie. what I'm doing rather than what I think other people are doing wrong).


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> That's the $64,000 question.


Yes, I have some on order.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

sakhoney said:


> running 300 myself TF


WOW - That rocks!!!

How many people help you?


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

My boy at times - But I do a lot by myself - I work oil rigs and work 28/28 days on/off - Bees, Drilling water wells, And dirt work all keep me out of the biker bars and having old lady trouble.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> come on down and help me graft from that colony I got out of the bee tree that's been going for 5 seasons. LOL


I'm stranded on top of that hive I sent a picture of last night. Battery almost out on phone. Send help.

Actually, I'll be down in Pekin tonight... If you feel like relocating your hives, we could graft in Pekin. 

Also, I'm already grafting from my own queen mother out of a five or six year bee tree.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good post lharder (#13) and good attitude.

Hoping your club presentation goes well, and may your bees prosper.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

I'm not naming names...and I'll keep quiet about where they meet. 
Apparently one club of about 25 people meet and then take turns at a few member's local apiaries doing group inspections. 
I think it's a matter of semantics when you discuss feral bees in man-made hives. Formerly feral is technically accurate... feral refers to the source of genes in this case, not the level of independence.
Every TF person so far that I have spoken with splits and hives swarms to maintain their numbers. But pro treatment beekeepers do the same or purchase packages as well.
I have been invited to see three different treatment free apiaries, and have been to one so far-the one I am still sporting itchy swollen patches on my legs from with the AHB. Come Monday I am going after those queens.
My bees are being left alone after the trauma I put them through their first month. I expect my queen is doing well and still laying vast amounts, I am hoping that reuniting the colonies gives the nurse bees stronger numbers to raise brood. I noticed they were low on stores and larvae in the smaller half of the colony into which I put the purchased queen before i combined. My first new brood should be hatching next week. 
The second sugar dusting yielded all of........drum roll please...........two mites. I don't know what to think about that. I'm going to let these bees build up and watch them closely.
Lharder, come sample away, I now know a few TF beeks that would oblige. The weather is superb and so is the produce.
I'm going to try one or two more clubs, but I think I'm going to be a fixture in the weird, tiny one close to my house where a third of the members don't have bees. I really need another hive started but I am sooooooo busy.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

:thumbsup:


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

DIYmom - nothing to my post?????


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## rw willy (Dec 7, 2014)

diymom said:


> ... I think it's a matter of semantics when you discuss feral bees in man-made hives. Formerly feral is technically accurate... feral refers to the source of genes in this case, not the level of independence....


Well they are either feral or domesticated? If they were brought here(the Americas) on purpose, than they are all domesticated. Considering they are insects, they are all feral. You have no more idea if that feral swarm you caught or that cutout from the local steeple came from an observation hive or a science experiment! My point? Why get hung up on semantics? They are wild bugs. Use them to your advantage, that means keeping them healthy and safe. Just keeping it real.
uu


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

sakhoney said:


> DIYmom - nothing to my post?????


I missed that.... I love being on here and getting everyone's info, suggestions, experience. Yet it's so nice to get inches away from someone and grill them knowing that even though they may want to escape, they likely will keep answering my questions because they are polite and I am persistent-make affirming, complimentary comments. Plus it's easy to move onto another person and ask them new questions.
I feel weird about posting all the questions I have on here.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

The funny thing is that the treatment free beekeepers think they tried/done something new that the profitable beekeepers haven't. 

After buying, breeding and catching tf stock I learned that you can get them to survive but not keep them profitably. But hey if a colony dies blame it on poor genetics.... or better sell the mites... I mean nucs to other beekeepers

So far all I have got from TF beekeepers is a bunch of smoke and mirrors. Until they actually start making a legitimate business model that lasts and have more than one or two isolated incidents of successful big beekeepers (not guys with a handful of hives) we will take them seriously. My family depends on my bees health.

What we do owe our bees as beekeepers is to keep them alive. If it takes a treatment than so be it. 

Beekeepers not beehavers


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> The funny thing is that the treatment free beekeepers think they tried/done something new that the profitable beekeepers haven't. If it was as easy as they say everyone would be doing it. After buying, breeding and catching tf stock I learn that you can get them to survive but not keep them profitably. So far all I have got from TF beekeepers is a bunch of smoke and mirrors.


Personally, I'm not looking for profit. If I get 10 lbs of honey a year, I will be thrilled. But it's a good point that many of the TF bees are expending energy and time controlling mites and won't produce the poundage of honey treated bees without such concerns do. Same goes for other animals which are managed for production, profit increases with treatments, if it didn't, nobody would treat. _
Dividing beekeepers into TF and profitable camps isn't right. I personally will pay more for honey that comes from TF bees vs organic honey, I don't even mess with bargain honey. So in that respect a TF operation can profit equally with less honey. It's all about your market. 
The guy that runs 60-100 hives up in the scrub foothills 15 miles from me harvests supers twice a year from his hives and runs a nice business which educates customers on the advantages of TF honey. He never purchased bees, just used swarms to build his stock years back and now sustains by splitting. On the other side of that small mountain about thirty miles is the other TF old beek with 300 hives. He is a lazy beekeeper and harvests once a year and does almost nothing for the bees besides add and remove boxes and make sure ants don't get into hives. I don't know what he does with all his honey, but I know his operating costs are really low. These guys have decent businesses and have created a pocket of very interesting bees.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Kamon, you ARE in the treatment free forum!


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Well if you going to be treatment free you need to learn how to take one colony and turn into 3 or 4. Every beekeeper losses bees. Likely one or two will die from the mite induce viruses and disease meanwhile you bought the others another year. This not include other things that can cause a beehive to fail. However I would not say this is better for the bees. Many of us beekeeper started out treatment free there are reasons we don't now. Also we find it hard to believe a mite the equivalent the size of a large dinner plate can coexist with its host while introducing viruses disease. Trust me the profit beekeepers hope that one day the small guys figure it out because we have tried and failed and lost a lot of money


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> Kamon, you ARE in the treatment free forum!


Oops hard to read on this smart phone. I still have a breeding yard of 40 treatment free beehives why can't I weigh in?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

See, FlowerPlanter also treated his first year hive to get them
better established. Whether or not he use the oav is in question.
Here is your answer since you asked!

So how do you or the other old timers deal with the AHB in there?
I have read that dealing with them when the hive grow is a big headaches.
How do you intend to keep them from the AHB genetic contamination? You will
never know what the feral or the open mated queens will bring back to your hives.
AHB is my big concern!


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Good post lharder (#13) and good attitude.
> 
> Hoping your club presentation goes well, and may your bees prosper.


I lean heavily on ALL the experience in this forum and it has helped me tremendously. The things I do may be relatively new to my area, but they are all ideas I have taken from experienced bee keepers all over. I also lean heavily on some local people for advice on local conditions. 

So...thankyou


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> I still have a breeding yard of 40 treatment free beehives why can't I weigh in?


Kamon, read the TF forum rules. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?253066-Unique-Forum-Rules

I'm not disagreeing with what you have to say. I am disagreeing with where you are saying it. There are specific rules in TF for a reason.

What you are highlighting is that getting bees to treatment free and capable of surviving is not enough. They also have to be able to meet commercial requirements such as honey production, pollination, etc. I agree with this position in context. I also have every reason to believe that TF bees can be selected over time to meet those requirements.

What I would like to hear is your description of events over the last 5 years that left such a bitter taste. I know you were running a few dozen colonies, think you borrowed money to build up to commercial level, tried to do it treatment free and something went wrong. Maybe you could start your own thread and tell the story?


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> Kamon, read the TF forum rules. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?253066-Unique-Forum-Rules
> 
> I'm not disagreeing with what you have to say. I am disagreeing with where you are saying it. There are specific rules in TF for a reason.
> 
> ...


How would you know I would not change the story to suit my agenda? How do I know yours is legit..... that's the problem with social media. I don't hate treatment free beekeepers or the idea. I don't like the fact they are encouraging new folks who can barely tell a drone from a worker bee that they need to locate certain genetics, learn how to split and propagate and be ready to lose some colonies along the way. New beeks need to make some honey and learn a thing or too first yes it is there choice but more times than not it can be costly. The story of my switch is long and expensive. Many of my bees survived but few produced enough each year to support a family. I lost colonies that could have been saved ect. And there is more to it than that. We STILL breed for as much resistance to the mite/viruses and disease the mites encourage to not would be stupid. Yet it is not as simple as keep a couple of hives in the back yard from"those" special bees. Guys like Michael bush and others often paint the journey to treatment free a little too rosy and the new beekeepers believe they have what it takes to do the same. Many don't make it and we lose another crop of beekeepers. I am all about success then tackling the hard stuff.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> How do I know yours is legit.....


When it is repeatable by other beekeepers, you can pretty much accept it as legit.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@DiyMom:

You wrote this which caught my eye:



> "Every TF person so far that I have spoken with splits and hives swarms to maintain their numbers. But pro treatment beekeepers do the same or purchase packages as well."


That's a very astute observation in the usually over-worn argument between the TF and non-TF people.

My question is this: why is just the continual replacement of bee colonies the accepted practice or outcome? If TF people are hiving swarms and splitting to keep their colony numbers up and non-TF people are buying nucs or packages and splitting to keep their numbers, it seems both sides of this hotly-contested divide are missing the main point (and both are essentially doing the same thing.) Why not let the goal be keeping the original colonies alive, year after after?

It seems to me that that is a much better target, for everybody from hobbyists to commercial guys, and for all persuasions on the treatment-spectrum. 

Some risks can't be entirely avoided (Act of God things like tornadoes), but for the most part if your bees are dying, disappearing, dwindling, etc., you, the beekeeper, need to step up, figure what's going on and do something about that. Throwing your hands up and wailing about CCD, or pesticides, or mites, or the next-plague-to-appear is a level of livestock loss and mismanagement that I find unacceptable.

Every year when I fill out the BIP colony survey they ask what is my acceptable loss level. I always write: 0%.

Although zero percent has been my own actual loss experience to date (starting my fourth summer with my bees), even when I do lose a colony, which I know will eventually happen, my "acceptable loss" percentage will still be zero because I will continue to _expect_ to lose none of my colonies. And each loss will represent to me a point of failure in my care of my bugs.

My biggest beef with the hair-splitting purity in the TF-wing of beekeeping is this rationalization of colony loss. I am not including here the deliberate Bond-type experiments, which while distasteful to me personally, are different from people who just don't want to treat for a variety of aesthetic or philosophical reasons. The lives of bugs under my care are very important to me. 

In my case, I turfed feral-living bees out of my barn walls and stuck them in boxes and in doing so I feel I undertook the responsibility of their care. My original purpose was to make their lives better (I had a head full of the woolly notions about the honey bee apocalypse.) 

I think if your colonies are dying or just not thriving, you are doing something wrong, or not doing enough of the right things. Bees are not annuals, like petunias. A well-cared-for bee colony should be an extremely long-lasting organism. 

Please note I am not arguing for "treatment", specifically, just thoughtful observation and judicious response in some form to whatever is the threat.

Enj.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> If TF people are hiving swarms and splitting to keep their colony numbers up and non-TF people are buying nucs or packages and splitting to keep their numbers, it seems both sides of this hotly-contested divide are missing the main point


I make spring splits to increase my colony count and to keep my bees from swarming. This has very little to do with "keep their numbers". Spring divides are a valuable tool to prevent swarming in my climate. So far this year, I've increased my colony count to 24 and plan to reach 28 by fall. If I do a really good job of it, most of them will go into winter in a 2 queen setup so that next spring I will come out with @56 colonies of which half will be sold as overwintered nucs.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

>
That's a very astute observation in the usually over-worn argument between the TF and non-TF people.

My question is this: why is just the continual replacement of bee colonies the accepted practice or outcome? If TF people are hiving swarms and splitting to keep their colony numbers up and non-TF people are buying nucs or packages and splitting to keep their numbers, it seems both sides of this hotly-contested divide are missing the main point (and both are essentially doing the same thing.) Why not let the goal be keeping the original colonies alive, year after after? 

Enj.[/QUOTE]

Like fusionpower says, splitting is not always done for insurance against loss alone. Here and in the southern climates, our ferals are very swarmy-so I hear from everyone I've spoken to- it's an adaptation in response to varroa and ahb genes I suspect. If you don't split, you will lose your original queen l, if you do, you are still retaining the original queen and part of the original hive. That's in an ideal scenario. So here, if we didn't split, we wouldn't have the same genetics year after year. Maybe not even for a full year.
And, like fusionpower said, growing your numbers is another reason to split while still retaining that original queen and propagating her genes.
I think losses are inevitable and in many regions, impossible to avoid in low numbers even if you do everything right, treatment free or treating. It's the nature of organisms to die, even super organisms. Longevity is highly desirable however, and I think colonies with excellent genes should have a life expectancy of at least several years on up to a few decades in a well managed and recorded hive.
so many factors obviously reduce longevity, it's an art to diagnose, and successfully alter the conditions of a hive to extend its life for successive years. 

Clearly, you are doing well with your original colonies, a testament to good genes and your skills, split and grow those genes!


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> So Bigfoot is real? Again no offense hard to believe that your hives thrive like treated ones do. I got tired of watching other guys make 120 pounds while I barely averaged 60. And lost 30% of my bees thru the year and they lost 5% anyways I have said enough on this forum the internet is what it is and everyone can believe whatever they want. I only take advice from close friends or guys who make money anyways.


Bigfoot is real until he is proven not to be, this is the way things should operate. Benefit of the doubt. individual people are good until they prove they are not... innocent until proven guilty. It's best not to rule out something entirely until you have exhausted the possibilities, which is often impossible or ridiculous. You are left unresolved but open minded, you can remain pessimistic, but not totally decided. 
Treatment free beekeepers are telling the truth until they are proven to be liars. The burden of proof rests on you. because someone can lie online does not necessitate that everyone lies. Alternately, Pessimism is healthy and buyer beware. I see you are exercising your pessimism and critical thinking, I think that is the best way to approach anything online. I cannot agree with some of your statements, though I can understand them.

On this forum, I look for consistency among certain member's comments and experiences before I consider their information as beneficial. There are quite a few TF members here with years of beautifully consistent posts which reveals their transparency and amounts to enough anecdotal evidence of their success at it for my needs. I may be over doing the research, but a few members so far have piqued my interest enough to read their posts over several years in topics that interest me. I've learned a lot quite quickly this way. I have more faith in their suggestions.

I do not think you can quantify success of other beekeepers in any legitimate way except in return on effort expended since the values of treated honey is not the same as TF. I doubt you would desire to do such a study with proper controls and conducted in a scientific manner. None of us have time and money to burn. Making blanket statements in a manner that assumes they are fact and not opinion based is cunning, but unheeded. TF works for some people in some places, it's a noble effort and a more sustainable model. Quantity in my mind does not supersede the merits of quality. But here, in America, most people have the opposite view. Of course if your business is bee based, profit is essential and directly influences your outlook.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

Deleted double post


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## MartinW (Feb 28, 2015)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> So Bigfoot is real? Again no offense hard to believe that your hives thrive like treated ones do. I got tired of watching other guys make 120 pounds while I barely averaged 60. And lost 30% of my bees thru the year and they lost 5% anyways I have said enough on this forum the internet is what it is and everyone can believe whatever they want. I only take advice from close friends or guys who make money anyways.


I have to admit that I'm a bit confused about the purpose of this forum and thread. I thought this forum is about beekeepers trying to learn about treatment free beekeeping. I thought this post was about a beekeepers experience finding treatment-free support in her geography. The post I quoted above seems off topic and and counter productive. There are probably other more productive forums for improving one's commercial or side-liner apiary. Moderator?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Deleted, dup. post.

Enj


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Deleted, again. Once is more than enough for my thoughts.

Enj.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

MartinW said:


> I have to admit that I'm a bit confused about the purpose of this forum and thread. I thought this forum is about beekeepers trying to learn about treatment free beekeeping. *I thought this post was about a beekeepers experience finding treatment-free support in her geography.* The post I quoted above seems off topic and and counter productive. There are probably other more productive forums for improving one's commercial or side-liner apiary. Moderator?


The unmoderated nature of this subforum with all the trash talk by the treaters has caused me to only log in every couple of weeks. Live is short and I dont have time to pick through and separate the wheat from the treatment chaff.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

ToeOfDog said:


> The unmoderated nature of this subforum with all the trash talk by the treaters has caused me to only log in every couple of weeks. Live is short and I dont have time to pick through and separate the wheat from the treatment chaff.


Do you honestly think that one approach is better than the other and fits all models of beekeeping? I don't get the divide that everyone seemingly wants to create on this issue. If you can be treatment free, good for you, but it doesn't work for everyone and/or everywhere. I think this thread turned sour because people just wanted to chime in and perhaps help a newbee open their eyes and actually enjoy beekeeping rather then focusing on one narrow aspect of management and totally turn the experience into a disappointment because they're so focused on keeping bees in an absolute management system when in all reality you don't have too and it's probably better to just enjoy bees for a bit and learn before making a decision such as this. The people who push that treatment free is the only way to keep bees on the newbies are just as bad in my opinion as the hardline treaters.


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## 357 (May 2, 2016)

lharder said:


> I think the people on the bleeding edge are a bit "different". Its probably the nature of the thing. Maybe its the ideas we need to pay attention to, not the people.
> 
> I try to be an open book, but I tend to keep my mouth shut at the local meetings. My philosophy is very different from most. I happened to get my first nuc from the current president of the local club. I didn't take any of his advice, but I kept in touch with him and let him know how I was doing. When I overwintered 6 of 8 nucs that I started that first summer, he started to pay attention to what I was doing because it was a new concept to him. By seeing nice foundationless comb, it opened up some other possibilities for him. By still having hives after he thought everything would die is also interesting to him. Now he wants me to give some presentations of some of the stuff I'm doing and some of the outcomes of the research group that are tracking some of my hives. I'll do my best to keep inflammatory content to a minimum (Ie. what I'm doing rather than what I think other people are doing wrong).


I'm hoping my TF approach will yield similar results. My club is very active and I hope to contribute someday down the road; much like you are. I hope things work out for you and you can teach others how to replicate your success. Please keep us updated.


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## 357 (May 2, 2016)

enjambres said:


> My question is this: why is just the continual replacement of bee colonies the accepted practice or outcome? If TF people are hiving swarms and splitting to keep their colony numbers up and non-TF people are buying nucs or packages and splitting to keep their numbers, it seems both sides of this hotly-contested divide are missing the main point (and both are essentially doing the same thing.) Why not let the goal be keeping the original colonies alive, year after after?
> 
> It seems to me that that is a much better target, for everybody from hobbyists to commercial guys, and for all persuasions on the treatment-spectrum.
> 
> Enj.


disclaimer: I'm a complete noob. FWIW.

I think that is the goal. At least it's my goal. However, as everyone clearly states, every beekeeper is going to have losses. What level of losses will depend on numerous variables. Obviously there are different schools of thought on how to absorb those losses, or even grow your apiary. The thought process on the TF side is propagating local feral genetics, or known resistant genetics, is preferable to importing unknown genetics. At least in my region makes a lot of sense to try and use bees that are acclimated to long cold winters rather than importing bees from places that never see snow. It's not that the southern breeders are doing anything wrong. It's just that what good is a colony in the north if it can't survive winter? Michael Palmer makes a lot of great points about this in his sustainable apiary videos. Surviving winter is #1 up here. Next for me is pest/disease resistance, then lastly production. I would expect for a commercial beek, these priorities might be in a different order; especially ones down south. They don't have to be as concerned with winter hardiness and most commercial operations in all regions treat as it is expedient for them. Again, that's all fine. If i were them I would likely do the same. As a noob hobbyist in the rust belt I am prepared for losses and I have time to figure out what works in my area. Commercial beeks may not have time to go TF, take losses, figure out what works best in their area, all while trying to provide for their families. I'm sure most of them had it figured out just fine before the latest onslaught of pests, diseases, herbicides, and pesticides. I don't judge them for treating. To each their own. My only concern is the locals who import massive quantities of package bees. If genetics plays a role in hygienic behavior, or survivability in general, then flooding northern regions with southern bees, bred primarily for commercial honey production, is actually doing a disservice to the feral and hobbyist beekeeper's genetic pool. The loss numbers I'm hearing from local hobbyists, and a few small scale commercial types (200-500 colonies), are above 50% annually. I don't care what side of the TF fence you're on, those numbers are unacceptable. Something has to change. That's simply unsustainable. In my own noobiness I've done a lot of reading. I've watched videos by Michael Palmer and Michael Bush amongst others. They indirectly lead me here to Beesource. I hope to grow my tiny apiary as big as I can afford (time/money wise) using hygienic and local stock without treatments of any kind. I may fail over and over but I will keep trying. Hopefully I can figure out what works in my region without incurring large financial losses. Obviously because I'm starting new and small, my financial exposure is limited.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

JRG13 said:


> Do you honestly think that one approach is better than the other and fits all models of beekeeping? I don't get the divide that everyone seemingly wants to create on this issue. If you can be treatment free, good for you, but it doesn't work for everyone and/or everywhere. I think this thread turned sour because people just wanted to chime in and perhaps help a newbee open their eyes and actually enjoy beekeeping rather then focusing on one narrow aspect of management and totally turn the experience into a disappointment because they're so focused on keeping bees in an absolute management system when in all reality you don't have too and it's probably better to just enjoy bees for a bit and learn before making a decision such as this. The people who push that treatment free is the only way to keep bees on the newbies are just as bad in my opinion as the hardline treaters.


I'm fine that some people treat and others don't, ideally we wouldn't need to treat bees since they are semi domesticated insects who should be able to survive without us...but I agree, both camps don't have to clash or shut each other down. Nobody should force newcomers either way. I do like learning about TF potential from this subforum and it's really irritating that every thread gets some hostility or condescension from treaters when we are trying to discuss TF. It's a possibility for some and not others like you said. I think researching your regions success with TF is an important clue to whether you can attempt it with good results, or whether the odds are highly stacked against you and proceeding with soft treatments would be better to start with.
It doesn't have to be a battle, it's just that the TF approach that succeeds in some places well enough to pursue, and in other areas it is much more challenging.
Like bees, we need to be adaptable and continue to access our practices.

I have many beekeepers with established TF hives around me and i take that as an indication that my TF prospects are good and worth attempting straight away. I wouldn't expect someone living in the central California valley to start or attempt TF...the odds are worse.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

diymom said:


> TF is like the secret society you have to know the password to join.


(I am not a TF beekeeper, but I check in with this forum occasionally to see what is happening in the TF world.)

I find the above comment very interesting. Last year, I met a TF beekeeper in my neighborhood through a mutual beekeeping friend. I thought, "great, here is my chance to learn about TF beekeeping and see what methods are working in my immediate area." I asked if I could come by the next time he inspects one of his hives to learn about his methods. He said "no." Claims he didn't want the extra disruption caused by having another person watching and asking questions, etc. One of his methods is to open his hives infrequently and then only briefly.

I accepted what he said at face value, though I thought it a little odd at the time, and then hadn't thought about our conversation since. But . . .

The OP of this thread mentions how secrecy seems to be a relatively universal trait of TF beekeepers. Add to that how most TF beekeepers on this forum refuse to report out their average harvest, losses, etc. (There are few outstanding counter-examples, though). And, yes, it does seem like a lot of TF beekeepers work in secret.

Obviously people are free to keep their methods and other beekeeping info to themselves. But, for me, such secrecy has a negative impact on credibility.

I know that a lot of TF beekeepers are now going to flame me and tell me that they don't care whether I believe them, and I shouldn't post on this sub-forum, etc., etc., and that is fine with me. But, it does seem odd how TF beekeepers complain that non-TF beekeepers don't believe they are successfully keeping bees TF, but in the next breath so many refuse to provide any info on their methods or numbers.


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## diymom (Apr 8, 2016)

From what I have seen, the beekeepers I have spoken with who are treatment free are not well tolerated by other beekeepers and tend not to go to the bee clubs often or at all. Several of them are just quiet about their loyalties and they keep it to themselves so they can associate with other beekeepers. Kind of like every kind of minority group that fears reprisals and persecution. 
I haven't met any who are secretive about showing their hives, one guy wouldn't let anyone visit his hives because his business lawyer said visitors needed to have their own company liability insurance due to potential ahb. He used to let plenty of people see his set up a few years ago.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Given how "difficult" bee keeping is, almost anything outside the standard, popular is taboo. At my club, folks dont talk about top bars. They dont talk about OAV or Oxalic Dribble. But I do know a prominent individual who rears queens, uses Oxalic Dribble.

TF or Not, I dont think its about some "secret club thing". From what I gather, part of it is concern with advising someone else in practices that may lead to "failure" of hives or considered "off label". People get pretty upset over losing hives, last thing anyone wants is to get blamed for the advise. So easiest thing to do is advise standard, label products and methods.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The unmoderated nature of this subforum with all the trash talk by the treaters has caused me to only log in every couple of weeks. Live is short and I dont have time to pick through and separate the wheat from the treatment chaff.

Imagine if it wasn't in the treatment free forum.


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