# My crude Frame Fixture



## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

Neat Ace!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Oh man, watch that thumb Ace.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Oh man, watch that thumb Ace.


What do you mean?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Oh man, watch that thumb Ace.





Acebird said:


> What do you mean?


At 0:59


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Yeah, I went back and looked at it. You see I re-positioned my thumb farther down where the staple couldn't reach if it popped out the side.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I don't understand what we are looking at. Frame nailing jig?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

That's a pretty clever design Brian.

Pleeese, keep your hand out of the way when using that gun.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

I differ with you Acebird in that I set my staples cross grain rather than into the end grain. Also, I glue then staple. Everybody to his own flavor. Still, nice jig, unique thinking and good craftsmanship.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Now, that's using your noggin. I like it!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I tried to pull apart the frame grabbing the top and bottom bar near an end bar and I couldn't do it. Then for the heck of it I squirted some super glue (CA) around the joints. I really don't think glue is necessary. With all the moisture swings in a hive I don't think a glue joint is going to last. I think people should staple something and then try to pull the staples out. My suggestion is find a pallet that is stapled so you don't have to buy a staple gun to test the theory. You will get an appreciation for how hard a staple comes out.

If you are going to go cross grain then you might as well use a brad nailer. I think that is weaker then a staple. Anybody have access to a pull tester? I am willing to donate a frame to test and Julysun can donate one of his and we can see where we stand.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

odfrank said:


> I don't understand what we are looking at. Frame nailing jig?


Did you view the video?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Ace, nice jig. Are you expanding or hoping for a bumper year?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nah, I was just bored and trying to point the big honey producers in a direction that would keep China away. Automation is the only way we will keep or grow manufacturing in this country. The problem is bean counters don't understand automation or they are afraid of it.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Acebird said:


> You will get an appreciation for how hard a staple comes out.


I can vouch for that.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Impressive work. 

For those who glue, Ace has invented a gluing jig as well. A coat of poly on the jig to aid cleanup and a paint brush glues ten ends at a time with one swipe while in the jig.

I have a couple of frames that pulled out when I used to staple with the end grain. Now bottom bar gets an end grain staple at the same time as the 45 degree top bar staple.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

Excellent Ace! I like your work space. Gold Medal!


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

To slow doing one at a time. 
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/framejig/framejig.htm


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ross that is a good fixture for doing batch quantities by hand but my intent was that this work cell would be automated. What my fixture does is hold the end bars square and at the right distance so they can be inserted into the top bar. The end bars are also located so the bottom bar could be inserted automatically and of course the nailing or stapling too. Dispensing glue gets messy but that could be done if it were really necessary. If my mocked up fixture was carried out to it's full potential your fixture wouldn't even be in the running for time cycle because most of the time spent would be loading staples and magazines of parts.

Just as a comparison to as it stands now each frame takes 40 sec. So that would be under 7 minutes for 10 frames. How fast are you doing them? Have you timed yourself.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Brian, 
The thru put timing if great, but the down side is not having glue on the frames. I would not want to buy or assemble frames that are not glued, and unfortunately I believe there are a significant number of others who feel the same way. If there were some way to include gluing in the process, you might have a real winner.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Just as a comparison to as it stands now each frame takes 40 sec. So that would be under 7 minutes for 10 frames. How fast are you doing them? Have you timed yourself.


I would say that Ross's frame jig would be faster than your process as shown in the video. 

Repetitive motions will be more accurate and faster than what is occurring in the video. It's faster to load ten topbars at once than to position ONE topbar ten different times. The same goes for shooting the staples in... and repeating the process with the bottom bars.

As you said, everything would be different if it was automated. But as displayed, with nothing holding the frame pieces square during stapling, you could be making wooden parallelagrams. Unlike Ross.

A few changes would make your fixture less "crude".


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Beesource does offer free plans for a "batch" 10-at-a-time frame assembly jig similar to the one _Ross _linked in post #18:
http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/10-frame-assembly-jig/


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> A few changes would make your fixture less crude...


Never said I was out to please anyone but myself.


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## REDWOOD (Feb 5, 2014)

I like Acebirds jig the best, a very industrial bit of kit that would probably be quicker if doing more than 10 frames


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

If you want to go into business doing 10's of thousands for commercial sale, it might payoff to automate your design. And it would need to be hands free. Anything short of that won't pay IMHO. The design I showed isn't mine. I can't remember who posted it first on the board, but I keep resurrecting it as the best design I have found for assembling 100's of frames for most beekeepers. I would say it has at least a two to one advantage in speed and includes glue, which I consider essential. You also don't have to handle the frames at all for gluing and nailing.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ross said:


> You also don't have to handle the frames at all for gluing and nailing.


You have to handle each piece one at a time an put them in the fixture as opposed to a stack loaded into a magazine. You have to handle each frame and do something with it once it is completed. The next operation would be inserting foundation and some would add another, wiring the frames.

Whether you design something totally hands off or not depends on the difficulty of the task. The difficulty factor will raise the cost of making the tool considerably. Because the cost of shipping assembled frames is so much higher than shipping the parts and pieces I think what should be designed for beekeeping should not be that complicated making it affordable for point of use.

10's of thousands is not a lot. 10 million would be more in tune for automating for all hands off. If you only had a couple hundred of frames to assemble and you got .10 a frame for assembly would you bother with any fixture? Take you longer to make the fixture.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

One reason to invest in the time to make a frame assembly jig is that you aren't expecting to quit after "a couple hundred of frames". Even if you only need that many frames initially, the jig is a "build it once, use it forever" investment and will serve just as well _next winter_ when you are building more frames.

I built mine from scrap wood, but it will outlast me. A well designed jig will keep the frame components aligned properly while you apply _glue _and staples.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird, are you assuming that the current "factory" assembly of frames involves little to no automation?


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

My comment on hundreds of frames was hundreds at a sitting. My jig has been in use for years. It took about 10 minutes to build.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> Acebird, are you assuming that the current "factory" assembly of frames involves little to no automation?


I don't know. It appears to me that there are a number of suppliers making woodenware in locations around the globe. I don't know what the market is for such woodenware that basically last a long time. My background was in medical products that were used once and thrown away. Quantities were usually several millions. Do you have any information as to what is automated for woodenware?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> With all the moisture swings in a hive I don't think a glue joint is going to last.


I discarded some 40 year old frames last month. The glue joints were still solid and had to be broken apart by force. I used the epoxy glue sold by Kelley.

I looked at your magazine design and method of assembly. I am impressed with it as a design but think you are not thinking far enough outside the box. Instead of stapling, design end clips with one clip for the bottom and another for the top. Set up a machine to automatically insert the bars into the clips. That would do away with nails, staples, and glue. It would half the time for assembly and would reduce the number of wood cuts by about 2/3. For timing, I run 8 minutes to assemble 10 frames with glue and staples using my frame jig which is a homemade job similar to what Ross uses.

Ross, I see several ways to improve your jig. Just curious if you have really looked at it and asked if you can do the job better?


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Not really. It works for me. Several people on the board have produced modified versions over the years. One version I liked used 1" round dowels instead of slats. Then all you need to build it is a 1" drill bit. Like I said, I stole the design from someone else on this board years ago. It is much simpler than springs and such on the typical jig. 

Titebond III will last indefinitely in the hive.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> For timing, I run 8 minutes to assemble 10 frames with glue and staples using my frame jig which is a homemade job similar to what Ross uses.


I suspected as much so why the flack? I already said the glue (you choose what type) can be dispensed top and bottom on the end bars without costing any time at all. The end bars are positioned in the same spot every time and that is what makes it doable for gluing and stapling. The only issue is gluing gets messy so the fixture has to be made of materials that are cleanable (plastics and stainless).


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## WPG (Mar 28, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Never said I was out to please anyone but myself.


You appear to do a very good job.

You do realize that you are attempting to reinvent the wheel.
Automated frame production was being done long ago, probably before you were born.

I remember seeing a video of an automatic frame assembly line a few years back. I don't know when it was actually made or where. Not USA.
It may have been an advertizing promotion, very well made.

It even had a conveyer bringing hive boxes that were filled 10 frames at time before moving off.

It might have been able to do 2 or 3 boxes per minute.
GLUED and stapled with I assume plastic foundation inserted. 
I don't remember if it wired them I doubt it.

There were no people in the video, but it looked like it could do 1 or 2 hundred frames before any of the magazines needed to be reloaded.

The only wood in the place was hive parts or the pallets they set on.

The large, commercial, and sucessful beekeeping supply manufacturers in the USA moved beyond wood jigs long ago. 
They are also continually tweaking and improving their processes.

You have already expressed your lack of respect for the large sucessful beekeeping operations, so why do you think that you have anything of benefit to offer them?


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

actually I like acebird's jig. It looks like it works good. Even though I do my frames one at a time without a jig, I think his design is neat.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WPG said:


> You have already expressed your lack of respect for the large sucessful beekeeping operations, so why do you think that you have anything of benefit to offer them?


I apologize if that is the case but do all the large successful beekeeping operation frequent beesource? Are you one of the large beekeeping operations that you think I have snubbed or insulted? I don't remember you as being large. I have seen some frame building automation on you tube but it is very typical of automatic machinery that I have replaced at one tenth the cost. It takes up and enormous amount of space and cost $100-$500 K. Way beyond the reach of beekeepers I see posting on this forum.

If you don't like me I can deal with that. Some people like me and some people don't. It is the way it has been my whole life. It was hard to deal with in high school but that was a long time ago.


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## BEE STALKER (Feb 12, 2012)

It's crude _and_ cute!


I'm with the earlier comments, glued joints and a pair of needle nose pliers to yank that errant staple out!inch:

I use the box jig. I gang glue all pieces, set on the top bars and gang nail. Flip the box over and repeat. My average is 5 minutes, but then I'm a carpenter, I've nailed a lot of wood........


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## WPG (Mar 28, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I have seen some frame building automation on you tube but it is very typical of automatic machinery that I have replaced at one tenth the cost. It takes up and enormous amount of space and cost $100-$500 K.


One tenth the cost? ! 
$10, 000 for what you have nailed to your workbench? What did I miss?
Even if you had a finished, complete, working, tested prototype what percentage of beekeepers on here do you think would be interested let alone willing to spend even $1, 000 on your particular design for something that is just a small part of their operation?

A person that had never seen a horse would be impressed by the speed of travel when someone galloped past them.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WPG said:


> What did I miss?


You missed all the people that liked it for what it is. A mock up of what it could be. As crude as it is it is within the time saving fixtures that already exist but has much more potential if someone were to expand on the idea... add gluing and stapling in an automatic fashion. No matter how fast you are at nailing or stapling you will never be as fast as a machine that does it for you.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ace, I was thinking of a type of plastic for the parts that woudl come in contact with gueen. I cannot recall the name of it right now but will see if I can come up with it. For now will just describe it as a kin to Teflon. I penturning where they use super glue as a finish. they make bushings out of it so the glue will not stick to the bushing. As far as I know no glue sticks to it.

Watching the video I had a couple of thoughts as far as being able to nail the top bare before lifting the frame out of the jig. tilt the whole jig up so that the top bar is in more of a vertical position this allows you to nail it before you lift the frame out to nail the bottom bar. This gets at least half the frame secured while it is being held square.

I am using the jig Graham linked to for the first time for assembling 800 or so frames. so far it is okay. It is a bit touchy in it's need for accuracy. I am hand nailing as well which is always slow. I have a finish nailer but am working in the house where it is more comfortable. I would also want to be able to apply glue since this is frames. I have simply had bad luck with unglued frames.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Just watched the video. As clever as that is, and you do incorporate some good ideas, I am not interested in any type of assembly that dosent use glue. We use a pretty crude jig that essentially are converted 8 1/2" boxes. We pre-glue, as a unit, sets of 10 end bars top and bottom before beginning assembly and are installing foundation as part of the process. Yeah, lots of dried glue builds up in the boxes but it dosent affect the assembly process. I have calculated based on speed and the cost of buying pre-assembled that it pays at the rate of nearly $20 per man hour (a bit faster than a frame per person per minute). It does take a couple pretty practiced people that are good at that sort of thing, though. As a 2 man process, each with a nailer its a bit more than twice as fast as a person can do alone. The biggest factor in self-assembly isnt the cost savings as much as knowing they have been assembled correctly. Its an event if one of our assembled frames pulls apart in the extracting room. Trusting a machine and someone else do it?........don't get me started. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Ace, I was thinking of a type of plastic for the parts that woudl come in contact with gueen. I cannot recall the name of it right now but will see if I can come up with it. For now will just describe it as a kin to Teflon. penturning where they use super glue as a finish. they make bushings out of it so the glue will not stick to the bushing. As far as I know no glue sticks to it.


Basically nylon. Teflon is impregnated in nylon if you are trying to make it slippery for a bearing per say.



> Watching the video I had a couple of thoughts as far as being able to nail the top bare before lifting the frame out of the jig.


Absolutely. Both top and bottom bars would be stapled prior to lifting out of the fixture if it were automated. As it stand now you can't get the stapler into position to do it manually but my intention was to staple automatically before lifting the frame out of the fixture.



> I have simply had bad luck with unglued frames.


This is because you are using nails and not a stapler. I wish people could see past this. Gluing is not a problem.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> as it stand now you can't get the stapler into position to do it manually


Mount the jig onto something to raise it up.... Then, at least a couple of fasteners could be shot into the frame.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Very nice! Lot's of KISS principle in your design. I could see in the vid that you had it "spring-loaded" but when I saw the photo of the elastic cord (bungie?), that was cool!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> I have calculated based on speed and the cost of buying pre-assembled that it pays at the rate of nearly $20 per man hour (a bit faster than a frame per person per minute). It does take a couple pretty practiced people that are good at that sort of thing, though.


Have you assigned a cost of training these practiced people? Many people overlook it. I am not clear on your rate of 20/man hour. Are you paying that or is that what you would have to pay to break even with pre-assembled?



> Trusting a machine and someone else do it?........don't get me started. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.


Obviously you have had some bad experiences. These are walls that are hard to tear down. For most of my projects through out my life the most difficult task has been tearing down these walls that some other jerk created.
Think about this Jim, industries automate to de-skill a job for the very same fears that you have about trusting someone else. What I have done in the past is take these very same trusted employees, give them a machine that does the exact same thing over and over again without tiring (usually mundane tasks) and you end up with better then what you started with. Of course the reliability of the machine has to be there and I have never had a problem with that. Consistent quality is the biggest selling point for automation. You could not build automobiles today without it.

I did not include installing foundation into the frames because of all the different designs that are out there. This is a curse for the industry and makes it impractical to do automatically unless one method was decided on for the whole industry. Actually this is one area that should be selected based on the machinery itself to ensure reliability and lower costs rather than past preferences. Beekeepers like doing their own thing and don't like to change. That is a stumbling block for the industry. It makes it easy for China to come in and take your business away.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Brian: I am just making a calculation based on the assembly charge of about .25 per frame. Its full time help doing our assembly as winter "make work". If I needed frames in a hurry any other time of year when busy beekeeping I would, no doubt, "roll the dice" and buy Pre-assembled. It dosent really take long to get pretty good at assembly probably no more than a couple hours. 
I've mentioned this before and I hate to belabor the point any more but I had/am having a really, really bad experience with a large order of Pre-assembled purchased about 5 years ago from a major supplier. The result is a daily reminder in the extracting room that poorly assembled frames are the gift that just keeps on giving over and over and over again. They are like little grenades that come through on a regular basis. Just drop a full frame of honey on your foot from about chest height one time and gauge your emotional and physical reaction then imagine trying to dodge them numerous times each day for 3 months to get an idea of my level of frustration. By all accounts those problems have been resolved but, for my part, I wont trust anyone else to assemble frames. Fool me once........


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Jim, I am not in favor of pre-assembled. I agree, it is a dark hole. Who assembled them and where? After you purchase a truck load then you find out what quality standard they were made to and most likely your hands are tied and you get to eat the goose egg. My envision is your people would still be involved in the assembly. That is how you ensure quality ... bring the work home, keep it in-house. I am not trying to sell you something, just trying to give you ideas. If frame assembly is fill in, make work to keep your good employees employed through the winter, bless you. Your a good man.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> As clever as that is, and you do incorporate some good ideas, I am not interested in any type of assembly that dosent use glue.


I am not picturing the foundation installation prior to assembly but gluing with Ace's jig should be easy. Paint brush swiping tops and bottoms all at once on the ten back loaded into the jig. For double glue the bars would need separate strokes.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Saltybee said:


> I am not picturing the foundation installation prior to assembly but gluing with Ace's jig should be easy. Paint brush swiping tops and bottoms all at once on the ten back loaded into the jig. For double glue the bars would need separate strokes.


We are using Plasticell (or rite cell) and dropping them into the top bar groove as we install and fasten the bottom bars. We have experimented with snapping the foundation in, post assembly, but decided this is a bit faster once you get the hang of it.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

got it, thanks


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Saltybee said:


> For double glue the bars would need separate strokes.


There is no point in double gluing with titebond. Trust me gluing is simple. Four plastic blocks with the right passage for glue on the next end bar in the stack to be assembled so you have full coverage. As the stack is push forward by removing the assembled frame will swipe the glue on the next end bar and not create such a mess that painting the whole stack would. Four independent pumps similar to the pump on a Windex bottle would deliver the right amount of glue (the stroke would be adjustable to suit your fancy).

I pulled the bottom bar in by hand but I think you could see that a simple ram could do this for you. The operator simply needs to place a top and bottom bar in the fixture and take the assembly out when completed. It would be no problem what so ever to handle plastic foundation placing it down first. Here again the ram would close all parts together in one stroke. 8-10 seconds a piece / 6 a minute is doable.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Agree, but some coat both.
I really do not have a problem with having a choice in designs or technigues.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>By all accounts those problems have been resolved but, for my part, I wont trust anyone else to assemble frames.

An Expanding Apiary Kit kit bought from that supplier(if I remember yours right) last year contained medium frames with no glue where the topbars come out of the hive but not the frame. No endbar to topbar staple either.


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## dp2k (Apr 22, 2012)

That is a really neat jig. I've used the "box style" jig from plans on beesource (mentioned earlier) to assemble the couple hundred frames I've built, and have always had trouble loading the sides and keeping them upright till they're all in. Perhaps Acebird's jig might be faster for me. I'd think that you could modify it to allow stapling (and gluing) of the frame by cutting the width of the jig down to the depth of a frame (or slightly narrower) at the center where the frame comes together. This would give the entire jig a "dog bone" shape that would allow you to more easily get the stapler in to work while the frame was held parallel in the jig. By mounting the whole thing on a lazy susan base or some other kind of gimbal, you could swing it around to staple top and bottom. 

As a woodworker, I agree that staples alone should be enough to hold the frame together, but even believing that, I still glue and staple mine, using 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 inch staples.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

If you build the Beesource frame jig, make sure you don't leave off the springs (see the plan) that draw the jig's removable end boards inwards. The tension applied by the springs keeps the individual end bars in place until they are glued/stapled. I didn't have any suitable springs handy, so I used two small bungee cords instead, and they work well also.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

dp2k said:


> By mounting the whole thing on a lazy susan base or some other kind of gimbal, you could swing it around to staple top and bottom.


It would be better to mount it on trunnions so you could flip the fixture upside down without you getting in the way of rotation.

Because the fixture is made of wooden blocks and not metal parts for aligning the frame parts the blocks get in the way of the stapler. You want the staples perpendicular to the grain of the top and bottom bar and that puts the magazine for the staples in the way. A larger stapler than I used will have a larger nose section and that would help to reach the top and bottom bar. Although 1 1/2 long staples would be too long for the angled cross nail of the top bar.

I am not sure why Jim L. has had frames come apart in the extraction process but I surmise it was something wrong with the stapling not the lack of glue. But as I said I did not think too much about gluing. One, because it is not necessary and two it is the easiest thing to incorporate into the fixture.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I am not sure why Jim L. has had frames come apart in the extraction process but I surmise it was something wrong with the stapling not the lack of glue. But as I said I did not think too much about gluing. One, because it is not necessary and two it is the easiest thing to incorporate into the fixture.


Little glue to be seen, 1" staples used and no end bar staple (something I don't use in our assembly btw). It's worth noting that glue needs brushed into into the 4 "corners" of the end bar so it can make contact on each of 2 surfaces and not applied as a droplet in the center of the end bar where it may match up with the groove in the top or bottom bar and serve no purpose at all.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> 1" staples used and no end bar staple


One staple or two on each end? You need the end bar staple in the the top bar.

Try to envision this: A plastic block is machined the same size as the notch in the end bar. A path in milled just slightly smaller than the thickness of the end bar about .020 deep for the glue to pocket in. Four drilled holes connect the pocket to a common pipe tap that feed the exact amount of glue needed. There are common every day metering devices that can do this, doesn't need to be invented. The swiping action of the endbar moving into position covers all three surfaces at an instant. The whole thing is a no brainer.


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## newbeeguy (Feb 20, 2014)

I can see how this feed based jig would be just the thing for a guy who was making a thousand or so frames at a time. For someone with ten or twelve hives say. And the box jig is great too, but maybe for a guy like me who wants to make a hundred frames at a time, cause I have hand built my first hive and need only frames for that. And I can see how guys with 100 to 500 hives, or who run a bee supply house, or a honey house and sell hives and parts, might want something else. Thanks for posting, and for the discussion thread.


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