# Another question on oxalic vaporizing!!



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

When I bought the pack of oxalic crystals from the hardware store (it's used for bleaching timber), I noticed there was hardly any safety instructions on the pack. It's pretty much sold to the masses to do with and handle as they will. Can't be that dangerous.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/


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## RogerCrum (Jun 19, 2011)

Oxalic Acid decomposes into Carbon Monoxide, Carbon Dioxide and Water. 

It is found naturally occurring in honey, rhubarb and spinach.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I've used the vaporizer with pretty decent results and never had a problem with damaging residue. I treat only ONCE per year because I don't believe in a single "miracle" mite cure. I do worry about the potential ph change inside the hive and the colony's reaction to that which also makes me happier to treat only once per year. I wear lightweight gloves while I'm treating and the process is quite smooth. To be honest, I've never gone right inside a hive after treatment and I think the bees pretty much take care of residue through travel or internal cleaning or both.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

BG, When I started using the OAV method these questions were mine as well, I even worried about whether the OA would rust my frame nails causing the frames to come apart. However after several years of use I discovered that my frame nails would be just fine and by applying the OA in the August/September time frame I will not be back in the hives till spring so residue crystals in the hive was never a problem, the bees will clean things up as they prepare for winter. 

About the Heilyser vaporizer, if the unit has a clean burn there will not be much if anything left on the unit, just swish the pan around in some water and wipe dry, however it would be best to avoid immersing the glow plug.


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## Hawkster (Apr 16, 2010)

This is probably a stupid question but is it legal to use this in our hives ?


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## jwbee (Aug 8, 2012)

Other than breathing the vapors , there's not really much to worry about.

Some people are more sensitive to it than others , I have used it both for bees and cleaning log homes , and skin contact with it has never bothered me at all , but it may burn you.

In the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics we find that upon heating oxalic acid, the water of hydration boils off first, then at 315°F the oxalic acid starts to sublime (go directly from solid to vapor), and finally at 372°F any oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to formic acid and carbon monoxide.

So some of the residue may contain formic acid , which would soon break down further into less harmful constituents.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

Hawkster said:


> This is probably a stupid question but is it legal to use this in our hives ?


EPA says no.

But I dont like listening to the government anyways.


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## jwbee (Aug 8, 2012)

Michael B said:


> EPA says no.
> 
> But I dont like listening to the government anyways.


Oxalic Acid is approved for use in Canada
The Pest Management Regulatory Agency has approved the use of oxalic acid for the control of Varroa mites in honey bee colonies. They have determined that oxalic acid may be safely used, provided that specified conditions are respected. 

As I understand , it is not approved by any agency in the U.S. , but that doesn't necessarily mean it is illegal , just not approved.?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

jwbee said:


> As I understand , it is not approved by any agency in the U.S. , but that doesn't necessarily mean it is illegal , just not approved.?


 Yes that's an interesting point. Don't know how it works in the US, but in my country you can do all manner of things to your hive, unless there is a law specifically against it. So for example, sugar dusting has not been approved as a mite treatment. But it's not illegal, people do it, and the cops aren't knocking on their doors.

There is an approval process for mite treatments, which mainly relates to being allowed to sell the products. So for example Apistan is approved and can be sold, and used, the coumaphos products are not approved and cannot be purchased. Oxalic is approved as a mite treatment, even though you can simply purchase it at the hardware store. All potentially hazardous chemicals such as say, coumaphos, oxalic, or fluvenate, are graded as to the specific hazards, and information is put on the label, which must be followed. So if someone purchased say, coumaphos, by way of a non bee related product, and then used it on his hives, he could be prosecuted for using the product in a non label way. 
Slightly murky though because beekeepers often get oxalic at the hardware store, with no label instructions regarding bees on the pack. So technically they could be prosecuted, but I think the intent of the law is that oxalic has been approved for use with bees, so long as nobody does anything crazy there will be no prosecutions. But if someone used coumaphos, a non approved for bee related use product, there may well be a prosecution.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I see some room to get iffy about the use of it in hives. It is approved for use as an insecticide. But in every description it is clearly an insecticide for use in gardens etc. I will go with the "It's not forbidden" angle. I would also not use it on colonies I will be harvesting honey from. Since I plan on reareing queens I am not sure I will have much of a problem.


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## stajerc61 (Nov 17, 2009)

Wait until you get those deposits in your lungs.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

stajerc61, could you go into some detail as to what kind of deposits you are speaking of, some clinical data would be helpful in understanding your statement. If I am to get deposits in my lungs I would like to know what they are. I hope you wasn't just being cynical, that would be disappointing.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Thanks everyone again!! I am hooked on this Oxalic thing and look forward to being able to use it as a tool against Varroa!!

As for the safety aspect, ive looked up multiple health warnings on the stuff lately and the repeating common thing is wear eye protection and mask and of course rubber gloves. I plan on using a good mask and goggles and wearing chemical resistant gloves and probably a tyvek suit. I will also pay attention to the wind as well and keep it at my back or atleast my side.

As I get comfortable I will probably lose the suit and stay with the goggles/respirator. This seems like a great treatment and as long as simple precautions are taken, it sounds like a great way to battle Varroa.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

About 25% of produced oxalic acid is used as a mordant in dyeing processes. It is used in bleaches, especially for pulpwood. It is also used in *baking powder*. It is also present in vegetables. In humans, oxalic acid has an oral LDLo (lowest published lethal dose) of 600 mg/kg.

I don't know how much you weigh but a Kg is about 2.2 lbs. But for me that works out to a dose of 47,727 mg. That is 1.6835 oz.

Some of the things it is found in like citric acid is found in oranges and other fruit.
Amaranth, Asparagus, Beans, snap, Beet leaves, Broccoli, Brussels sprouts, Cabbage, Carrot, Cassava, Cauliflower, Celery, Chicory, Chives, Collards, Coriander, Corn, sweet, Cucumbers, Eggplant, Endive, Garlic, Kale, Lettuce, Okra, Onion, Parsley, Parsnip, Pea, Bell Pepper[disambiguation needed], Potato, Purslane, Radish, Rutabaga, Spinach, Squash, Sweet potato, Tomato, Turnip, Turnip greens, Watercress.

You now have the proof that mother was trying to kill you with all those vegetables.

Parsley is one of the highest with 1.7 grams of acid per 100 grams or 1.7%. Spinach is nearly 1%


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Hawkster said:


> This is probably a stupid question but is it legal to use this in our hives ?


According to the EPA web site:
"EPA must evaluate pesticides thoroughly before they can be marketed and used in the United States to ensure that they will meet federal safety standards to protect human health and the environment. Pesticides that meet the requirements are granted a license or "registration" which permits their distribution, sale, and use according to specific use directions and requirements identified on the label."

In other words, it is my understanding that Oxalic Acid is not registered by the EPA, and that the use and/or marketing of Oxalic Acid as a Pesticide in the US without EPA registration is not lawful.

What OA needs is someone with deep pockets to shepard it through the registration process. And that part of the problem is that since OA is so inexpensive there is no financial incentive to do so. So maybe BeeSource members who support the use of OA in the US should undertake the registration process. 

It is my belief that at its core this is a food safety issue, one which has large amounts of foreign data regarding safety and delivery. It is hard to expect the US to protect our food supply (that seems to be the intent) if they allow materials to be used which have not undergone some sort of review in this country. Should there be means to accept the foreign data? Probably. Reciprocity of evaluations can be a good thing. Though I am not sure I would find the fact that any product had been found safe by XX third world country all that sattisfying.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Such a review is expensive, often costing close to $100,000. New Zealand, or Canada, has already done it for oxalic, maybe if the right people could talk?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I think Andrew and OT have really hit at the heart of the problem. No company has seen fit to jump through the hoops necessary to get a specific oxalic product approved when faced with the reality that they would have to compete with what is already being commonly done for pennies per treatment particularly when no one has ever even alleged that there is any resulting safety issue that affects consumers of honey or any other hive product. One might even go as far as to draw a parralel between oxalic use and the different essential oils put in bee feed or even the myriad of different fuels burned in bee smokers. What if it were discovered that the burning of pine needles put off a chemical that proved to be a highly effective miticide (and most of us have observed that a heavy smoke will knock down mites) then would that be cause for the government to intervene? I agree there should be some sort of streamlined approval process that isn't so profit driven to look at and make recommendations for commonly used compounds such as this.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

This is also from the E.P.A. R.E.D Fact page
http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/4070fact.pdf

All pesticides sold or used in the United States must be registered by
EPA, based on scientific studies showing that they can be used without
posing unreasonable risks to people or the environment. Because of
advances in scientific knowledge, the law requires that pesticides which
were first registered years ago be reregistered to ensure that they meet
today's more stringent standards.

Quote:
Oxalic acid is registered for use as a disinfectant to control bacteria
and germs, and as a sanitizer, in toilet bowls, urinals and bathroom
premises. Registered products are formulated as ready-to-use liquids or
solid soluble concentrates, and are applied by sprinkling, pouring, brushing,
swabbing or mopping the product onto the surface to be treated.
Oxalic acid also has many diverse, non-pesticidal, manufacturing and
industrial uses including use in fabric printing and dyeing; bleaching straw
hats; removing paint, varnish, rust or ink stains; and cleaning wood.
Regulatory
History
Oxalic acid first was registered as a pesticide in 1957 for the current
bathroom disinfectant uses, as well as use in swimming pool water systems,
drainage systems, sewage systems, eating establishments (to disinfect
equipment and utensils), and other sites. At present, five products
containing oxalic acid are registered.
End Quote

Basically OA has been and still is registered as a disinfectant. Including the disinfecting of food service utensils.

I am wondering if anyone has ever submitted a request for it to be registered as a treatment for bees. Or if they care.

Also from the same source.
Although they contain only a small amount of oxalic acid and a much
greater amount of other active and inert ingredients, oxalic acid products as
formulated and registered for use as bathroom disinfectants can be highly
irritating and damaging to the eyes, skin and mucous membranes. Exposure
to the concentrated formulations can result in chemical burns to the skin and
severe to permanent eye damage. However, these risks should be low as
long as product label directions and precautions are followed.

The pesticide oxalic acid will not result in unreasonable adverse
effects to human health or the environment, and all registered products
containing oxalic acid are eligible for reregistration. These products will be
reregistered once the required product-specific data and revised labeling are
received and accepted by EPA.


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## Hawkster (Apr 16, 2010)

I got curious because the treatment sounded so easy and cheap (my two main requirements!) so far it appears a gray area as far as legality goes and I might be constrained from putting pure on my honey label if I used it.. I found this http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/msdshazcom/htdocs//MSDS/E/EMD/Docs/wcd00011/wcd01199.pdf which I admit is scary. I know companies need to cover themselves so not sure how much is true and how much is CYA


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Make no doubt about it, OA in its crystalline state and when vaporized should handled with respect and is something you don't want to inhale. When diluted into a 3 to 4% syrup solution though it's pretty safe. I have even had it splashed in my eyes and only noticed a very mild stinging sensation.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Jim, I have to read these MSDS sheets at work all the time. It is my responsibility that all containers are labeled correctly according to OSHA and one of the things I have to do is make up labels form info on the MSDS. For the most part they are terroristic language. You have to read them with a bit of background info.

This sheet is for OA Crystals which is exactly what beekeepers would be handling.

Two sections you would be most interested in is the PPE and the final hazard ratings located on the last page. There is a screw up on the last page though because each hazard is rated on a scale from 0 to 4 there is no 20 as listed next to hazard. I am goign to venture form other information on the MSDS that this should read.
Fire 1, Health 2 and Reactivity 0
Water is rated a 1 for health hazard.

For the PPE it is listed:
Splash goggles. Full suit. Vapor and dust respirator. Boots. Gloves. A
self−contained breathing apparatus should be used to avoid inhalation of
the product. Suggested protective clothing might not be sufficient; consult
a specialist BEFORE handling this product.

In comparison this is the PPE from the MSDS for Bleach.
Personal Protective Equipment: Wear safety goggles. Use rubber or nitrile
gloves if in contact liquid, especially for prolonged periods.

Difference is a suit and a respirator.

Bleach is a irritant tot he skin after long exposure. OA is an irritant with any exposure. Crystals can be ingested or breathed,. liquid bleach would not be considered so. Our people manage to figure out how to though. Putting it in a spray bottle and atomizing it for example. It has happened. Atomizing bleach is not in accordance with it's intended use. We are under no requirement to provide protection from such use.

You could say the same about vaporizing OA.

In all I don't find anything in regulation that mentions it being vaporized or for the use with bees at all. It is not approved or disapproved. IN this case it really is a matter of "Is it approved"? You can't expect anyone to then list every use it is not approved for. So the truth is if your use is not listed as approved. It is Not approved. and that is what matters. It is approved as a wood cleaner and bleach and as a bathroom and kitchen disinfectant. Including utensils that will come into contact with food. but none of these include the use of it being vaporized. It is approval of it used as crystals and dissolved in a liquid. I guess you could argue that dribbling is cleaning the kitchen in a sort of pre kitchen sort of way.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

jwbee said:


> Other than breathing the vapors , there's not really much to worry about.
> 
> Some people are more sensitive to it than others , I have used it both for bees and cleaning log homes , and skin contact with it has never bothered me at all , but it may burn you.
> 
> ...


I want to believe that vaporized OA is hard on the mites and easy on the bees with little down side. Can someone help me understand the caution about too much heat when the vapor is delivered via a pipe heated with a butane torch? TIA


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

dont be too carless around the fumes. its concentrated and could burn your eyes, lungs, skin, 

I have also thought about the residues left within the hive, and breathing in the OA dust as I work the hives later on after the treatment
Not so much the live hives, as someone here mentioned, the hive is polished and cleaned 
but the dead outs as I scrape the frames and boxes down releasing all that dust into to the air

I dribble my OA but many here find vapourizing works well


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ya it is best to find a machine which will keep the burning plate at a steady temp to achieve the proper vaporization
crack pipes are a bit hit and miss


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Lee, crack pipes can be easily overheated with a torch, to keep the OA in the crack pipe at the correct sublimation temperature you need to be able to watch the vapor stream by applying it under glass on top of the hive, to apply it into the entrance is as Ian said "a bit hit and miss", if you cannot see the vapor coming from the pipe you do not know how much heat to apply. I agree with it being best to find a vaporizer that will keep the OA at the correct temperatures and they are quicker and easier to use, the hive need not be opened when applying through the entrance.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

IN my experience with a pipe is the pipe. The vaporized OA cools and recrystallizes on the pipe. ON a plate or shallow dish the vapors escape to the air and there are less surfaces for it to re crystallize on. Shallow and wide surface so that the vapors rise and do not contact a surface as the air currents carry them away.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I believe Cowen has also made a OA vapour machine directed toward commercial use


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## Maryland Beekeeper (Nov 1, 2012)

Could OA be run through a fogger ?


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I don't think so, a fogger vaporizes something that is already a liquid, the OA would need to be heated to a liquid and then vaporized, I do not think the fogger was designed for this.


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## Motj3 (Dec 15, 2012)

I know a guy who is building an OA vaporizer today and planning to use it this week. He has dry sugar in his hives as insurance feed. My question for those who have had friends use OA is, should the sugar be removed first. In other words, if the sugar is left on top the frames, will the OA vapor bind to it and harm the bees?


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