# TBH doesn't work in warm climates



## Rader Sidetrack

There certainly are beekeepers successfully using top bar hives in areas _warmer_ than Charleston SC. For instance, see posts by _PatBeek_, who is in central Florida. Here is a relevant thread: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ia-selling-top-bar-nucs&p=1378678#post1378678

You can find other posts by Pat (or any Beesource member) by clicking on their member name and following the links offered.

Note Pat's comments about bar length in various TBH designs. My own TBH bars are about 15" long which would be about 13" of comb, and I have not had heat problems with comb. I'd suggest choosing a TBH design that does not have overly long bars, perhaps similar to these:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm


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## bobsim

Hey B.D.,

This is my second year with top bar hives, no heat related issues. Our climates aren't too different. 

During the warm months I inspect during the morning hours. I think on a hot day the afternoon heat could cause issues with the combs, much more comfortable in the mornings anyway. I've noticed the bees will attach heavier combs to the sides of the hive. Freeing them for inspection is easy and a day after cutting for inspection they are re-attached. 

For what it's worth my bars are almost 18" (16 1/2" inside the hive.) I'm sure you're aware that top bars require special handling. (?) 

Last year I was told not to expect any honey, let them build and get established then leave any honey for the winter. Currently they're bringing in nectar and I have 9 bars of honey left from last year to harvest this weekend. 

I have to admit I took two bars last year...just had to. Beyond that I think the advice is worth sharing.

It's fairly obvious by your past posts you have the top bar bug. This is the wrong time of year for second thoughts, time to get busy my friend!


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## MartinW

McCartney Taylor is a TB beekeeper from Austin, TX who seems to do just fine in the heat and humidity. He has a book on Swarm Catching and almost 3.9MM views on his TB beekeeping channel. Good luck!


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## GaryG74

As long as you were careful when handling the bars during inspections (don't let comb get horizontal side wise to keep from breaking) you shouldn't have any problems.

If those comments were from mentors ("Top Bar hives never work here") maybe it's time to find new mentors.


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## Tomas

I too have few problems with comb breakage/collapse due to the heat—in this case Honduras in Central America. It gets very dry and very hot for part of the year, during part of the honey flows in fact. If I do have comb breakage it is usually my own fault. I either mishandle the combs or fail to fully check for side attachments before trying to lift the comb out of the box.

In my boxes the combs are almost 12 inches deep and 15 ½ inches across the top—they are roughly equal to a deep frame in area.

If you really are worried about comb callapse, maybe go with a box that is a bit shallower than mine, perhaps only 10 inches deep. That will reduce the weight of each comb and should make them more stable. Try to keep them in a bit of shade also. That seems to be advantageous for both the combs themselves and me—when I need to work them on those hot days.

You could also put some sort of insulation under the cover, like a piece of Styrofoam, to keep the heat off the top bars. My cover is actually just a piece of aluminum sheeting from a newspaper printing plant. It just sets on top of the bars. I don’t use insulation and again I have few problems.

I tried a ventilated bottom with a number of my tbhs—a piece of 1/8 inch screening that covered the middle section of the bottom, under the brood combs. Part of it was for heat reasons but also for mite control. I really didn’t see any difference in regards to comb collapse because of heat. (However, the hives with solid bottoms seemed to be bigger and produce more honey. I suspect the extra light may have caused problems.)

Check out this post on my blog, “Musings on Beekeeping,” about one of my tbh apiaries in the valley. This area gets much hotter than the coffee region up in the mountains, where I also have bees. There are links to some videos that show the setup I have for this apiary.

“Musings about Top Bar Hive Beekeeping: A Visit to an Apiary”
http://musingsonbeekeeping.blogspot.com/2015/02/musings-about-top-bar-hive-beekeeping.html

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Tom


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## Jon Wolff

I live just outside of Augusta, GA and our averages are similar if not higher than Charleston's. I started in 2010 and only had one comb collapse, and that happened my first spring and was due to my own carelessness. Also, that year I had screened bottoms, which may have contributed to the problem. In hot and humid climates like mine, I discovered that the bees can better regulate the hive temperatures in solid bottomed hives. I'm sure in Africa the beekeepers don't have open bottomed hives, either. I do use a ventilation bar when I see the bees bearding, though. At 20", my bars are long. I believe this gives the combs more strength and helps when it gets hot, which I don't think would be the case for narrower combs.


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## CessnaGirl

Sam Comfort from Anarchy Apiairies runs his entire successful business with top bar hives, including queen rearing. Half of his colonies are in Palm Beach County and further south in Florida. His TBHs are simple with plywood tops but he does put a thin sheet of metallic insulation under the cover. I think he gets a roll from Home Depot and cuts them to size.


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## typhoontx

I'm beginning my 3rd year with top bar hives near Ft. Worth Texas. I've not had any problem with comb breakage that was due to heat only my mistakes, That said my hives are wide and not extremely deep so they have a wide attachment at the top. Every summer we generally have a couple of weeks of 100 degree + days every summer. My hives have a closed bottom and only a long slot at one end for the entrance and venting. I have a gabled roofs on them and I did paint them white to help minimize solar heating


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## sqkcrk

Beau Diddly said:


> I'm a new guy trying to get into bee keeping and I've spoken to many local beekeepers over the last year or so. I'm turned off by the pompousness and narrow-mindedness of most people in the local club. Some were helpful to the extent that you subscribe to their paradigm. It's not just a matter of "ask 10 beeks, get 10 answers", but it's the stubbornness of their opinion.
> 
> I've been told the TBH has 'never' worked in the Charleston SC area because of the heat which causes the comb to fall. When I asked about the popularity of the TBH in Africa, I was told, "well, I don't know about that, but it doesn't work here". Even condescending are occasionally right, so can anyone shed light on this? I tried reading as much as I could before posting and I've read some accounts of combs falling and others stress the fact of the tapered design of the box.


Would you take your Ferrari to a Ford Truck Shop and expect any different a reception? You are a new guy, your words, talking to local beekeepers expecting them to know something foreign to them. I think you expect too much.


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## Beau Diddly

sqkcrk said:


> Would you take your Ferrari to a Ford Truck Shop and expect any different a reception? You are a new guy, your words, talking to local beekeepers expecting them to know something foreign to them. I think you expect too much.


Yes sir, you are correct, I am a new guy, clearly stated. How would I know if TBH are foreign to local bee keepers if I don't speak with them? What if there are a few TBH keepers in my area, how would I know if I don't ask around? I take advice and opinion in an objective manner and in this case, I turn to my new Bee Source TBH friends to reconcile this paradigm. I greatly appreciate the feedback and direction, and my TBH plans are still on track.


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## Charlestonbee

I started four hives last year in west Ashley. They are all foundationless except the frames from purchased nucs. I had no problem with comb collapse of any kind. This year the combs are much firmer than last year. I have a friend on James island who has had a top bar hive going for three years. Seems to be ok in charleston climate. I went to bee club meeting downtown a couple times but people told me not to start foundationless I must treat feed all the time and not harvest honey my first year. I learned all information I needed through beesource and other books. I def learned a lot and had two hives die out since last year. One had high mite load and they absconded and the other I let get robbed out. I got right at four gallons of honey from the two hives I harvested from. You can pm me if you have any questions. I'm still learning myself


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## Riverderwent

Beau Diddly said:


> I'm a new guy trying to get into bee keeping and I've spoken to many local beekeepers over the last year or so. I'm turned off by the pompousness and narrow-mindedness of most people in the local club.


Okay.



> Some were helpful to the extent that you subscribe to their paradigm.


That's cool.



> It's not just a matter of "ask 10 beeks, get 10 answers", but it's the stubbornness of their opinion.


Which opinion?



> I've been told the TBH has 'never' worked in the Charleston SC area because of the heat which causes the comb to fall.


That's silly. You need to be little careful with heavy comb in warm weather. That's just part of using a topbar hive. Sometimes you get a kind of "groupthink" thing going where some speaker has spoken persuasively to a club or an influential member has had a bad experience and others don't know any better.



> When I asked about the popularity of the TBH in Africa, I was told, "well, I don't know about that, but it doesn't work here".


You might ask how they know that. Or just love them and ignore those comments. I do that all the time on Beesource.



> Even condescending are occasionally right, so can anyone shed light on this?


Make sure that the hive is not too deep and keep the comb vertical, particularly when it is full of honey and in warm weather.


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## sqkcrk

Beau Diddly said:


> Yes sir, you are correct, I am a new guy, clearly stated. How would I know if TBH are foreign to local bee keepers if I don't speak with them? What if there are a few TBH keepers in my area, how would I know if I don't ask around? I take advice and opinion in an objective manner and in this case, I turn to my new Bee Source TBH friends to reconcile this paradigm. I greatly appreciate the feedback and direction, and my TBH plans are still on track.


It seems by your description that you were being critical of people in the group you went to because you didn't find what you went there to find. Be more understanding, is what I suggest.


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## Beau Diddly

sqkcrk said:


> It seems by your description that you were being critical of people in the group you went to because you didn't find what you went there to find. Be more understanding, is what I suggest.


Respectfully, no. As I stated, there was a pompousness about their opinion: TBH don't work in our warm climate. When I asked about climates further south and historically in Africa, their response was "I don't know about that, it just won't work here". I even acknowledged they could be right for all I know, and that's why I turned to this forum, to pose the question. In answering, there is a difference in "I have no experience with TBH" and "it won't work around here". My criticism was not in their lack of experience, rather their unfounded claim (which has been proven false in the above responses), furthered by their arrogance in make such a ridiculous claim. In fairness, not everyone with whom I spoke said this, but about 9 of 12 did.

I really appreciate the helpfulness from this board...certainly an asset for me.


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## Chuck Jachens

I have tbh and I have high temps in the summer. I don't have the humidity though. I highly recommend reading the following book

“Constructive beekeeping” by Ed Clarke written in 1918? can be found at:
http://www.biobees.com/library/?dir=gen ... s_articles

This book talks about how ventilation, insulation, humidity, and temperature are interrelated inside the hive. Easy to read explanations of the thermodynamics on how the hive works as a condenser. You don't need to be an engineer to understand this book.

If comb collapses then it got hot in the hive, why, the bees could not cool it off fast enough. Most tbh are made with 3/4 inch wood and t.he bees can not create enough temperature difference to condensate water on the inside walls efficiently. High humidity compounds the problem so the top bars need extra insulation so the water doesn't condense on the bottom of the top bars and drip onto the comb, brood, and honey. Best thing is if you good condensation, then the bees will actually reuse the water to help evaporative lay cool the hive. Any excess runs off the side and drains out of the bottom. I recommend 1.25 inch walls to 1.5 inches


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## Chuck Jachens

To address the other problem, I too am one the few tbh beekeeper in my club. I embrace the differences and choose to be really well educated (ie well read). It never hurts to ask why they don't work and follow up asking for details so that you can maybe explain why it didn't work and offer friendly and helpful advice to solve the past problems.

I think I am respected now in my club because I go out of my way to be helpful and well reasoned ( or maybe just reasonable).

Most of all have fun or it's not worth doing -quote from Solomon Parker


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## Jayoung21

Will you continue to go to the club? If so, maybe in a couple years of successfully keeping tbh you can have a field day at you apiary to show how it can be done.


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## Chuck Jachens

I continue to go to the meetings and have given a talk on TBH beekeeping last summer. There was a lively discussion after on the differences and similarities between the top bars and langs. Especially going foundationless in the langs to reap the benefits of clean wax with treatment free beekeeping.

I have an inspection day planned for this spring once the weather will hold good for a week (Just so everyone has enough notice). I tried last summer but it did not work out.

The club is putting on beginning beekeeping class this weekend. I will be there to answer questions about TBH hives and their management.


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## Michael Bush

Well, the hottest temperature recorded here is 118 F... but that was before my time. I have seen 114 F once and 110 F a few times. I'm sure I've had well over 100 F many times with my top bar hives. Yes, if the timing isn't good and if you are foolish enough to open a hive when there is a lot of new comb heavy with nectar and the temperatures are over 93 F or so you can cause some collapse, but I have not had issues as long as I leave them alone when the weather is hot.


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## JWChesnut

Top bar hives were the absolute rage among "do gooder" North Americans when I was living in Central America. Comb collapse was a constant problem. 

After the North Americans returned to their comfortable stateside life, the put-upon Central American beeks made two adjustments: 1) they used bamboo slivers or rebar tie wire to install long reinforcements hanging down from the center of the top bar. 2) They converted the white-elephant Top Bars to crude Langs. 

The North American do-gooders had never stressed the crucial importance of bee space -- since top bars don't seem to respect that important discovery, so the ersatz Lang boxes had real issues with burr comb. 

What I have observed in the field is the "development" volunteers mania with top-bars is imported from the States. In the gritty real world -- interchangeable frames in standard, stackable boxes are more appropriate south of 23 degree latitude, just as they are north of the Tropic. 

The fixed investment in a top bar is at least 14 board feet + roof design. A Lang deep is 6 board feet, and can be repurposed onto any and every hive. The Top Bar is a white elephant without a purpose unless supporting its colony --while that less expensive Lang deep and be placed on any other colony without any delay. Much more utility in the multipurpose Lang box.

I don't know where the "meme" that top bars are "cheaper" comes from -- but hacking together a square box from pieces of board shorter than 20" is light years cheaper than a 4 foot long coffin.

Chunks of comb honey were the main product of the Top Bars. The Lang technology was extractable. Where I was in semi-developed Central America -- extractable honey safely stored in jars had much better market and return than comb honey covered imperfectly on a plate. Ants ate the inventory and invaded the undefendable top bar troughs, and marketing the comb required a dedicated saleswoman at the market.

Pest attack on Top Bars was more severe than the Lang. Any unused Lang box was placed for defense on an active hive. One cannot do that with the Top Bar, resulting in lots of damage to the unattended troughs.


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## Chuck Jachens

Please note that this is not the first time I have heard these arguments and probably not the last time. 

Sorry you had a bad experience with TBH in South America. All beekeeping is highly dependent on local conditions. Top Bar Hives are not a one size fits all, the hive dimensions (Width, depth and side angle are dependent on the local environmental conditions, hive materials, and the skill level of management).

Bee space is a spacing issue and centering the bars when they are replaced in the hive. Shims need to be used to allow for wider spacing of honey bars. Can't have big gaps between the top bars. In Langs, it is not problem to run 9 frames in a 10 frame super. It is just a management thing that needs to be included in the TBH.

Top bar Hives should not be imported, that defeats the purpose. TBH should be made with local materials with local People. As stated before the design should be based on local conditions.

The material cost of TBH are about the same for a double deep lang with a top and bottom. I can easily build a top bar in my garage with materials bought a lumber store and it will function well (regardless of the tool sophistication i use). I would be hard pressed to build 2 Lang frames the same and have the correct bee space when they fit into my home made square box. How difficult is it to build 20 Lang frames given a table saw, planer, and nail gun let alone simple hand tools.

Chunk honey in combination with crush and strain can be stored in jars and you don't need an extractor. 

You can always harvest the wax from TBH that don't have a colony in them (or distribute the comb to other hives). Rendered wax stores well and is a marketable product. That way the hives are not harboring pests and the next swarm or split can build new combs.


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## Michael Bush

>2) They converted the white-elephant Top Bars to crude Langs. 
>The Top Bar is a white elephant without a purpose unless supporting its colony --

It's really great to have a top bar hive forum so that people who want to bash them know where to go.


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## jbeshearse

Beau Diddly said:


> . It's not just a matter of "ask 10 beeks, get 10 answers", but it's the stubbornness of their opinion.


How can an opinion be stubborn unless you challenged it? Place experience on the defensive and many times you get condescension. Many times experience comes across as arrogance in the face of unbridled enthusiasm. Learn from experience's mistakes or you may needlessly repeat them. Ignore tried and true methods and the create disdain from their adherents, and you may miss some very enlightening wisdom. Bee clubs are like all others, members are passionate, which sometimes comes across as closed mindedness. Sorry your experience was negative, I encourage you to continue in the club then teach others once your experience and wisdom is backed by field application.


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## Harley Craig

LOL first off everyone thinks Kenya where the Kenyan Top Bar Hive was made famous is HOT......not really so although it is consistently warmer on the coast.

Dry season - June to October

June, July, August, September & October - These are the coldest months. Temperatures vary significantly per region and with their difference in altitude. Daytime temperatures are usually around 23°C/73°F at higher altitudes, like the Masai Mara, and 28°C/82°F at lower altitudes, like the coastal areas. During the dry season the sky is clear and days are sunny. Early morning temperatures at higher altitude are typically 10°C/50°F. It is advised to pack warm clothing as morning game drives in open vehicles will be cold. There is very little rain in most of the country so these are the least humid months, making this the best time to stay at one of Kenya's beautiful beaches.



Wet season - November to May



During the wet season daytime temperatures are between 24°C/75°F and 27°C/81°F at higher altitudes. At lower altitudes daytime temperatures are more consistent and hover at 30°C/86°F. Mornings stay pretty cool at higher altitude and it is advised to pack warm clothes for early morning game drives in open vehicles. From December to April the humidity is intense in Tsavo and coastal areas. 




with that being said, EXtreame heat can pose a problem with collapsed comb on a TBH , I had comb collapse here in IL on hot summer day without even trying to flip it. the trick is to either work them early morning or late eve, never mid day. Also, I found placing spacers between my flat roof and the top bars allowed for shade on the bars and a cross breese to keep the bars cooler..... this helped tremendously


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## Jon Wolff

JWChesnut said:


> I don't know where the "meme" that top bars are "cheaper" comes from -- but hacking together a square box from pieces of board shorter than 20" is light years cheaper than a 4 foot long coffin.


I've seen top bar hives made with sunflower stalks, bamboo, reeds, even mud. It doesn't get cheaper than that. I can't see Langstroths being made from any of these materials. In fact, I've read that in tropical climates the mud TBH outperforms by double the traditional Kenyan TBH, so maybe in Central America it may not have been TBH bad, Lang good, but wood TBH bad, mud TBH good.


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## Chuck Jachens

Absolutely, repurposed and native materials are why TBH can be made so much cheaper.


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## JWChesnut

Just reporting my real-world on-the-ground observations, and corroborating that hot climates have comb collapse issues in TBH designs promoted in the "development" literature.


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## Chuck Jachens

JWChesnut said:


> Just reporting my real-world on-the-ground observations, and corroborating that hot climates have comb collapse issues in TBH designs promoted in the "development" literature.


So "why" did they fail? We can have intelligent conversations about that.


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## aunt betty

Built a pair of beautiful top bar hives with white cedar gable roofs that tilt. They are kind of nice to look at. I might even put bees back into the one that died.....maybe.


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## Michael Bush

>So "why" did they fail? We can have intelligent conversations about that.

Probably not while spending our efforts trying to come up with cute insulting names for top bar hives...

I have had comb collapses. My initial theory was that the comb was either two deep or that the slope would help with the weight to connection ratio. In the end I concluded that both are valid issues. Sloped sides change that proportion of connection to weight. Also sloped sides have an advantage when removing the comb as the space gets wider as it comes out. The only really bad collapse I had was a Langstroth deep sized long hive with top bars. There was a sudden strong flow and it was quickly filled with brand new soft comb that was completely full of nectar. I think my first mistake was inspecting on a hot day. The bees can't cool it once you have it wide open and working it and I think the comb got too hot. Another issue, if it's in the sun (which this one was not) is that the sun beating down on the lid can transfer heat down to the top bars if there is no air gap between the cover and the top bars. After I went to shorter bars (15") and a slope I had no significant issues with collapse. The only time I get a comb collapse it's one comb and it's my fault for not cutting it loose first because I get impatient. The other direction I went was a medium depth long Langstroth box with top bars. Again about the only collapse I get are the ones I try to pull out and it's new comb and it breaks. So I don't do that. So a synopsis of what I found helped:

1) don't work a top bar hive on a hot day (93 F +)
2) make the combs either shallower or shorter bars and sloped.
3) make sure there is some kind of spacer between the cover and the top bars
4) put the top bar hive in the shade


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## Chuck Jachens

Michael, I was thinking along those same lines, thanks for putting it to words.

I have only had a comb collapse after handling it. Usually one of the last combs I picked up when I was trying to hurry up so I could close the hive.


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## Lburou

@ Veau Diddley,
Would you consider asking about honey bees, their nature and management, instead of asking about and making the issue that of keeping bees in a TBH. 

Those old guys will be glad to teach you about bees if you ask in a way they are not defensive about their langstroth hives. In other words, talk about honey bees instead of TBH...Talk about a common interest in bees.


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## Oldtimer

Michael Bush said:


> It's really great to have a top bar hive forum so that people who want to bash them know where to go.


In fairness, the OP did ask for opinions, and he at least was open enough to accept the negative one with grace. As should anyone wanting all sides of a story.


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## jbeshearse

Inspectors in Florida will not touch your top bar frames. They require you to pull the out for them to inspect. It was my understanding this was because of the possibility of comb collapse.

it might be worth noting that those unfamiliar with top bars might not realize that one should flip the frames end over end if at all.


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## jadebees

The topbar hives were designed for warm climates, weren't they? The habit of lifting the combs properly is easy to develop. But what I Dislike, Greatly!, after running 6 TTBH, and KTBH for 2 years, is this ; you cannot see well, under topbars, of the type in KTBH. Brace comb, is often unseen, and rips comb when moving a topbar. Even working it from the end , doesn't prevent it, comb's not see-thru. In a Lang or Warre hive, this is easily released with common tools. If it is bad, you can still see what you must do. This aggrevated me so much, it was the sole reason I gave away and sold all those hives. I still keep topbar hives, Warre hives. But i can always see between topbars to release crossed & brace comb. And those Warre parts are even more interchangeable than classic Lang boxes. In Kenyan, or Tanzanian topbar hives, It's easy to break comb in them , no matter how careful you are.


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## AugustC

Purely observationally it seems that those in hot climates favour the shallow/wide tbh (more comb attachment) whilst those in colder climates favour the narrow/deep tbh. This seems to fit better with the basic principles of thermodynamics as I understand them.


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## Jon Wolff

AugustC said:


> Purely observationally it seems that those in hot climates favour the shallow/wide tbh (more comb attachment) whilst those in colder climates favour the narrow/deep tbh. This seems to fit better with the basic principles of thermodynamics as I understand them.


My summers are hot and humid and my hives have long bars for exactly that reason--more comb attachment. It's worked very well for me.


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## Jon Wolff

jadebees said:


> Brace comb, is often unseen, and rips comb when moving a topbar. Even working it from the end , doesn't prevent it, comb's not see-thru. In Kenyan, or Tanzanian topbar hives, It's easy to break comb in them , no matter how careful you are.


What was the angle of your KTBH walls? That makes a big difference. My bees don't attach the comb to the walls, so I never have a problem tearing comb. And once the combs are seasoned, I can be fairly rough with them and they don't break.


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## reminniear

What's funny is I "thought" I was having problems with comb collapse in my top bar hives. 
As a 4 year top bar tender, a local beekeepers association asked me to give a presentation on top bar hives.

After the presentation, one of the officers of the association said that I shouldn't be too concerned about the 3 times that summer my hives had collapsed comb. Her lang's also experienced comb collapse over the summer.

My comb collapse "issue" was no worse than what other beekeepers in the area were experiencing.


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## jennSAL

Thanks for this. To add to tone of traded hostility with a gender based theme, I am more experienced, as a woman in this world  , with men telling me something's impossible and ignoring them politely. I also was told not to do TBH, at least not my first year. These advisors had minimal or no experience with TBHs and felt I was more likely to fail with them and that they would be less able to assist me and advise me on them. Then understanding their well meant concern that I might give up on beeking or I might lose more money doing TBH before giving up and doing langs if I went TBH first, I went ahead and did TBHs (having the money to take the risk and valuing my back more than my pocketbook or the viability of my hives).

Now I am set to lecture on TBHs in May- not because that is the best idea for a TBH lecture, but because I apparently am the only one in house able to do such a lecture with own experience of TBHs, and we were short lecturers, and I know I can do better than/ as well as/ some of the lectures we have had inflicted upon us. I'll do a research report combined with my own failures and successes.

I fear I may have trouble with the length- same as lang frame length- and depth- same as lang deep- of my bars given no slope to sides. SUnny site here in SE AL seemed to do better for Tanzanian (straight sided) TBH last summer, but maybe I should shade them in deepest hottest summer. Most importantly I guess stay out of them then!

(2 current TB hives, 1 month short of 2 years along for each, and 1 past absconded after 5 months TBH)


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## Chuck Jachens

Bravo and I commend you for following through with your choices in spite of the "lack of support". It is great you will be talking about TBHs, it is important to share the knowledge. I am also giving a talk on TBH management this May for my local bee club (I did one last summer). Have you read books from Phil Chandler and Michael Bush? Both are a wealth of information.


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## jennSAL

Thanks Chuck- so many things read I can't recall all. Will look into these again- have of course reviewed MB's website.


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## sqkcrk

Beau Diddly said:


> Respectfully, no. As I stated, there was a pompousness about their opinion: TBH don't work in our warm climate. When I asked about climates further south and historically in Africa, their response was "I don't know about that, it just won't work here". I even acknowledged they could be right for all I know, and that's why I turned to this forum, to pose the question. In answering, there is a difference in "I have no experience with TBH" and "it won't work around here". My criticism was not in their lack of experience, rather their unfounded claim (which has been proven false in the above responses), furthered by their arrogance in make such a ridiculous claim. In fairness, not everyone with whom I spoke said this, but about 9 of 12 did.
> 
> I really appreciate the helpfulness from this board...certainly an asset for me.


People are often critical or even fearful of things they don't understand or know about. Referring to those you asked, not you.


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## Steve56Ace

Sam does a lot of Langs too along w/ his Warrish nuc w/ aluminumized plastic bubble insulation lids. He uses 1" wood. I made a copy cat that also uses Publix 3/16" BBQ skewers for bars. Sam is hosting Michael Palmer on April 1st if you can get here and a workshop the next day as well. (Palm Beach Co Beekeepers Assoc.)


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## Steve56Ace

I base my Florida TBH on 19" wide bare and 9" deep like a lang. Starter strip is a piece of plastic foundation 3/4" wide stapled into a groove in scrap wood bar. I did this specifically for the heat hear. Theory is that the more grab of frame to distribute load at bar the better. My sides slant at 22.5º because of info gleaned from Dr Jamie Ellis and I have not had collapse due to heat but my hive lids are intense and insulated as is the sealed bottom and double pane observation windows. It's about giving the girls a space they can control. Oh, and I got cameras inside it. Good viewing at my desk. IMHO most TBH designs are to narrow and the wrong angle of repose. But, I only know what I think I know.


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## Steve56Ace

PS- Another advantage I've found w/ 19" bars is when inspecting I can use a Lang nuc to set some bars into to hang out, and it works.


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## Duncan151

Steve56Ace said:


> My sides slant at 22.5º because of info gleaned from Dr Jamie Ellis and I have not had collapse due to heat but my hive lids are intense and insulated as is the sealed bottom and double pane observation windows.


Do you have anymore information on that 22.5 degree slant?


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## Steve56Ace

Duncan151 said:


> Do you have anymore information on that 22.5 degree slant?



Without finding some technical terminology its about the pic I'm attaching. See the chain of bees on the right? They are hanging to build comb and notice the angle of that chain and the angle of the new comb above them? When they chain there is a nature angle that is ≈ 22.5º. I'm not a big math guy but find it interesting that it is half of 45º which is the natural angle of repose for terra firma. 🐝


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## Steve56Ace

Steve56Ace said:


> Without finding some technical terminology its about the pic I'm attaching. See the chain of bees on the right? They are hanging to build comb and notice the angle of that chain and the angle of the new comb above them? When they chain there is a nature angle that is ≈ 22.5º. I'm not a big math guy but find it interesting that it is half of 45º which is the natural angle of repose for terra firma.
> View attachment 23542



Just did an inspection and split my big FL TBH and never have side comb attachment issues.


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## Steve56Ace

Steve56Ace said:


> Just did an inspection and split my big FL TBH and never have side comb attachment issues.
> 
> And FWIW to see a pic of a screen, I do enjoy watching the chain gang work thru a clear Follower Board. Busy little bees!  ��


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## Steve56Ace

IMHO again it's about giving them a space they can control and, my FL TBH lids are intense  Full sun, on a roof, in South Florida. Bee happy!


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## Chuck Jachens

Steve56Ace, cool top. What is it made off and does it allow for ventilation between the lid and the top bars?


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## Steve56Ace

Chuck Jachens said:


> Steve56Ace, cool top. What is it made off and does it allow for ventilation between the lid and the top bars?


Thank you. Building another one now as the girls just don't stop here and I can't keep up. The gabled lid is fully styrofoam insulated with the roof itself made of door skin that has been fully epoxied. There is little true ventilation but the lid does not rest on top of the bars but about 3/8" above them thus making another layer of insulating space.






The wider wood at entrance (Full 3/4" slot w/ landing board) side Is the clear wall and floor camera room. Also camera inside w/ clear Following Board.


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## Duncan151

Steve56Ace said:


> Without finding some technical terminology its about the pic I'm attaching. See the chain of bees on the right? They are hanging to build comb and notice the angle of that chain and the angle of the new comb above them? When they chain there is a nature angle that is ≈ 22.5º. I'm not a big math guy but find it interesting that it is half of 45º which is the natural angle of repose for terra firma.
> View attachment 23542


This is the first that I have come across anything about a 22.5 degree angle. I will have to do some more digging. The TBHs that I am currently running have an 11 degree angle, and I get some side attachment and some hives without. I built two, bigger, TBH's for this summer with a 30 degree angle. Not so much for side attachment, but for maximizing internal volume. Side attachment had not been a big issue for me.


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## dgrc

> ...I've been told the TBH has 'never' worked in the Charleston SC area because of the heat...


I was recently told by the local experts that TBH has never worked in Minnesota because of the cold. After just a little more questioning the answer changed to, "Don't know if anyone has ever tried it."

My wife and I just installed a 2# package in a TBH so check back with us in a year.


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## Michael Bush

>I was recently told by the local experts that TBH has never worked in Minnesota because of the cold. After just a little more questioning the answer changed to, "Don't know if anyone has ever tried it."

Yet many people in the north are keeping them successfully...

>My wife and I just installed a 2# package in a TBH so check back with us in a year.

Considering most years lately the average losses have been about 40% or so, losing it may not prove much...


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## dgrc

Michael Bush said:


> >...Considering most years lately the average losses have been about 40% or so, losing it may not prove much...


The University of Minnesota is informally reporting 25% losses for 2015-2016. I'm reporting 0% losses for my single backyard Langstroth but as a rookie beekeeper that was more due to mild weather and good bees than it was due to anything I did.

I'm an electronics tinkerer and installed temperature and humidity monitors in my Langstroth last year. I'll do the same for the TBH this year. If I lose the TBH colony, so be it. But every experience is a learning experience and I'll keep trying until the bees show me the right way.


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## dgrc

Duncan151 said:


> This is the first that I have come across anything about a 22.5 degree angle...The TBHs that I am currently running have an 11 degree angle, and I get some side attachment I built two, bigger, TBH's for this summer with a 30 degree angle. Not so much for side attachment, but for maximizing internal volume..


My math skills aren't up to the challenge of proving this, but my guess is that the bees build comb guided by a festoon of bees defining a catenary curve. This implies that the height and width of the box will determine the side wall angle that prevents side attachment.

But the bees will probably prove me wrong...

... again.


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## Oldtimer

dgrc said:


> The University of Minnesota is informally reporting 25% losses for 2015-2016. I'm reporting 0% losses for my single backyard Langstroth.


MB is treatment free so presumably he was referring to his estimate of treatment free losses.


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## Duncan151

dgrc said:


> But the bees will probably prove me wrong...
> 
> ... again.


Funny how that works, I find that listening to the bees seems to work wonders


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## Delta Bay

dgrc said:


> I was recently told by the local experts that TBH has never worked in Minnesota because of the cold. After just a little more questioning the answer changed to, "Don't know if anyone has ever tried it."
> 
> My wife and I just installed a 2# package in a TBH so check back with us in a year.


I know of at least one person that over winter a TBH in Alexandria MN. He goes by the handle Bush 84 on here. That was 2011/2012 winter. I don't see that he is active on the site any more. He used a TBH that allowed for a slightly bigger comb, about the size of the comb that a lang deep holds. I also know of someone in Manitoba that has winter two frame nucs very successfully.


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## crmauch

dgrc said:


> I was recently told by the local experts that TBH has never worked in Minnesota because of the cold. After just a little more questioning the answer changed to, "Don't know if anyone has ever tried it."
> 
> My wife and I just installed a 2# package in a TBH so check back with us in a year.


People were discussing TBH in Minnesota and Wyoming back in 2006: tbh-s-in-the-far-north


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## Michael Bush

>MB is treatment free so presumably he was referring to his estimate of treatment free losses.

No. Just the losses as being reported in general.


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## Oldtimer

What's in general? I don't think it should be described by "in general", because there is such a wide disparity between the different methods. Last bee survey I read broke the averages down to hives treated with Apivar losses just over 20%, hives treated by "other" methods losses higher than that, and hives not treated at all, losses not quite 50%.

So I guess a person could take a stab at it and do a head calculation and say losses "in general" are around 40%, but broad statements like that are misleading in that they could lead a person to feel comfortable with extreme high losses, when they shouldn't be. So if for example someone is treating but losing 40%, they may be led to think that's avaerage so they are OK. Where in fact for them it is high and they need to find out what they are doing wrong so they can improve.


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## Steve56Ace

Delta Bay said:


> I know of at least one person that over winter a TBH in Alexandria MN. He goes by the handle Bush 84 on here. That was 2011/2012 winter. I don't see that he is active on the site any more. He used a TBH that allowed for a slightly bigger comb, about the size of the comb that a lang deep holds. I also know of someone in Manitoba that has winter two frame nucs very successfully.


19" Lang wide TBH on a roof in South Florida. I know I have a special lid but give them a good area to grab onto!








PS- And use Lang boxes during inspection or transporting and we were doing a split today into one inn pic.


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## SRBrooks

Same experience here. The only time I've had a comb collapse/fall off was due to my mishandling of the bar. I'm in Spicewood, Texas, and my top bar hives work great. Also, I have no desire to open a hive when temps are that hot. I'm a beekeeper who suits up to open a hive, and it's just too hot with all that clothing.


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## Michael Bush

>What's in general? I don't think it should be described by "in general"

Losses as reported by the USDA and other entities that are measuring losses of bee colonies.


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## Oldtimer

Michael Bush said:


> No. Just the losses as being reported in general.





Michael Bush said:


> I don't think it should be described by "in general".


So, your two statements are an oxymoron?

I'll go with the second statement. They should not be described in general because it's misleading, which is why a few posts back I commented on your first statement.


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## crmauch

Oldtimer said:


> So, your two statements are an oxymoron?
> 
> I'll go with the second statement. They should not be described in general because it's misleading, which is why a few posts back I commented on your first statement.


The second statement was a quote of your quote, (notice the ">" before that statement) - not an oxymoron. So you liked the repeat of your own statement.


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## Oldtimer

Oh I get it now. This is the problem with people not using the proper quote system for making quotes. I thought MB was making a statement, not quoting me.

On top of that it is way too much of a generalisation infer that average hives losses are around 40%. Such statements totally muddy the waters because there is a massive difference in losses between hives not treated, hives treated but with methods that don't work well or at all (powdered sugar etc) and hives treated with apivar.

I don't think this should be generalised into one overall figure.


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## Oldtimer

Other problem I've had with people quoting someone but not using the proper quote system is I cannot click the little >> thing to look at the origional statement to get the context in which it was said or the full statement. If someone just can't use the proper quote system they should at a minimum make it clear when their quote begins and ends.

But quoting properly is best.


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## aunt betty

Did not read this whole thread because my eyes started bleeding in the first ten posts. 
Wow...it's a hot thread here.

Wanting to add that the TBH is really a KTBH with Kenya being the K part. So I looked up Kenya on maps and guess what? The equator runs right smack thru the middle of Kenya so I have to assume that it's hot there a lot. If a Kenya Top Bar Hive (KTBH) works in Kenya then why would it not work anywhere on the east coast of the USA like the Carolinas for instance? I have one in my back yard that wintered this winter without treatment but I have to add that if was a split from another colony that did not make it. I combined resources this spring and gave the deadout to the survivor to build on. Today it's full 4' of bees. 

If you want to try a top bar hive do it. Worst that can happen is you fail and then learn. IMO I have had more fun with that KTBH than any of my hives. If your a hobby beekeeper that just wants to watch bees and have fun, maybe get a little honey (or a lot) by all means do start out with a KTBH.* IT'S FUN!
*


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## Chuck Jachens

Thank you Aunt Betty, tbh are fun and IMO better for learning. I highly recommend an observation window in every tbh. I can watch the bees without disturbing the bees. I can share my bees without suiting up my visitors. Thanks again for the reminder to have fun.


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