# Traits for selecting breeder colonies



## Fusion_power

This is not an exhaustive list and its a bit dated. I'm posting it at a request on the chat forum. There is a LOT more that should be in this.

Over the course of several years, I have wished for but never seen a good list of the various traits that can be influenced by a bee breeding program. Following is a list I have compiled of some of the traits of importance to beekeepers. Keep in mind that this is a list of genetically influenced traits, with some comparison of races of bees, not a list of management procedures.

1. EGG LAYING RATE
2. EGG VIABILITY RATE
3. BROOD CYCLE TIME
4. BROOD NURTURING
5. FORAGING AGGRESSIVENESS
6. TIME OF FORAGING
7. DISEASE RESISTANCE
8. PEST RESISTANCE
9. DEFENSIVE BEHAVIOR
10. SWARMING TENDENCY
11. WINTER HARDINESS
12. LIFE SPAN
13. BODY SIZE
14. SENSE OF SMELL
15. HYGIENIC CLEANING BEHAVIOR
16. TIME OF BROOD DEVELOPMENT
17. THRIFT
18. HONEY ARRANGEMENT
19. POLLEN COLLECTION
20. TYPE OF HONEY COLLECTED
21. COMB BUILDING
22. CAPPING STRUCTURE
23. PROPOLIS COLLECTION
24. BRACE COMB CONSTRUCTION
25. ABDOMINAL COLOR
26. ANTENNAE STRUCTURE

Colony strength affects productivity because of the high level of correlation between hive strength and honey production. Egg laying rate, egg viability rate, brood care, brood development time, life span, and several other factors affect colony strength.

A prolific Italian queen can lay about 2,000 viable eggs per day during peak brood rearing. Rates of up to 5,000 eggs per day have been reported for African queens. After watching a colony build up from just a handful of bees in the winter to occupy seven or eight deep brood chambers in the spring, one begins to appreciate just how many eggs are being laid.

Egg viability is affected by inbreeding because of parthenogenesis and the concentration of genetic defects. Only 15 variants of the sex allele have been identified to date. Since a queen mates with 17 drones on the average, at least one or two of them will have identical sex alleles with the queen. When an egg has identical sex alleles, the result is a diploid drone egg that the bees normally destroy shortly after hatching. Genetic code defects cause otherwise normal eggs to be non-viable. This is especially detectable in drone eggs because they contain only one set of chromosomes. Genetic selection must control inbreeding so the egg viability rate does not become abnormally low.

Brood care includes feeding and climate control in the brood nest. Most strains of bees used commercially today show good brood care characteristics. Worker brood development takes 21 days from egg laying to adult. For comparison, African bees take about 19 days. The shorter brood cycle helps explain their rapid colony buildup.

The average worker lives about 35 days during summer. If the average life span were increased to 45 days, colony strength would rise by 20 to 30 percent. Several colonies have been found with above average life spans, but very little work has been done to select long-lived bees.

Disease resistance to brood diseases has been found for the following; American foulbrood, European foulbrood, Sacbrood, and Chalkbrood. There are several other brood diseases caused by viral, bacterial, and fungal agents, but none have as much effect as the first four. Resistance seems to center around hive cleanliness and brood nutrition with emphasis on hygienic behavior which is a tendency to uncap and remove diseased brood. Carniolans have a high average level of resistance to brood diseases and African bees show a similar capacity. Italians show resistance to varying degrees and respond readily to genetic selection.

Nosema, Paralysis, and Septicema are the primary diseases of adult bees. Nosema is especially bad because it affects wintering colonies causing serious damage in Canada and most of the northern United States. Factors affecting resistance include the total number of bees in the colony and the size of the hindgut of individual bees. Italians on average tend to be slightly susceptible to nosema and resistant to paralysis and septicema. Brother Adam indicates that he has found no obvious resistance to nosema except possibly in the Egyptian bee (Apis Mellifera lamarckii). Caucasians tend to be very susceptible to nosema though selected strains exhibit some resistance. Several researchers have noted that the eastern honeybee (Apis Cerana) seems to be almost immune to nosema. Regrettably, Apis Cerana and Apis Mellifera cannot crossbreed.

A moderate level of infestation with tracheal mites results in poor wintering ability. If more than about 30 percent of the workers are infested going into winter, the colony will probably die. Resistance appears to be based on behavioral and anatomical differences. Bees with the highest level of resistance currently are from England where bee populations were decimated in the early 1920's. As the highly susceptible bees were killed, only the resistant colonies survived. The net result is that bees of English origin have a high level of genetic tolerance to tracheal mites. The typical pattern seen when a colony dies from tracheal mites is a colony with a handful of dead bees and almost all the honey stored for wintering still in the hive. What happened to the huge cluster of bees that went into winter? They flew out and died when the temperature was above about 40 degrees. It is heartbreaking to see a huge cluster on the ground in front of a hive with bees crawling slowly away, wings disjointed. After losing most of the adult bees, the few remaining start rearing brood in a desperate attempt to survive. Then comes severe cold weather and the bees won't move from the brood to food located only inches away. The result is a handful of starved bees covering a small patch of brood with a hive still nearly full of honey.

Varroa mites are from Asia where colonies of Apis cerana were the original hosts. Varroa will kill an infested colony within a few years. Only African bees (Apis Mellifera Scutellata) show a high level of resistance. This resistance comes from a shorter brood development time and from actively seeking and killing the mites in a form of grooming behavior. Varroa causes newly emerged bees to be physically smaller than normal and to have short, abnormal wings. Other symptoms include excessive fall swarming, and brood that does not emerge from the cells.

Tropilaelaps Clarae is an external mite that also originated in Asia where they are hosted by Apis dorsata. Though not currently in the United States, we will probably have to deal with them eventually though only in the southern states. Resistance will probably be the same as for Varroa, though this has not yet been tested.

Wax moths can destroy the combs in a weak colony in a short time. Italians tend to be highly resistant because they maintain very strong colonies and aggressively clean the hive interior. They sting and remove wax moth larvae.

Parasitic insects such as hornets, wasps, and members of closely related genera such as spiders actively prey on honeybees by waiting near the hive entrance and grabbing a bee on its way in or out of the hive. Most colonies that aggressively guard and defend the hive will be resistant, but tend to sting beekeepers more often. African bees have developed a unique behavior of flying straight into the hive entrance instead of landing outside and walking in. This reduces their exposure to predators waiting at the entrance. While animals such as frogs, birds, skunks, and bears prey on honeybees, the only resistance bees show is based on strong hive defensive behavior. Guard bees and soldier bees tend to sting more than younger house bees. Guard bees normally stand near the hive entrance and challenge intruders. Soldier bees forage part of the time, then wait in the hive for the unwary intruder - whether man or beast. There is a large variation in the percentage of soldier bees in different colonies and there is some correlation between the percentage of soldier bees and the amount of honey produced. The more often a bee flies outside to forage, the more honey gathered. Regular bee selection has tended to increase the percentage and quantity of active foragers in commercially available strains of bees.

Foraging behavior shows up most in the amount of honey a colony gathers. In some colonies, the bees rush in with a load of nectar, unload, and then rush back out for another load. The bees in other colonies could best be described as lazy. They gather nectar, then return to the hive and lounge around for a while eventually getting around to another foraging trip. A good selection program can rapidly affect this level of genetic variation. African bees forage earlier in the morning, later in the evening, and more aggressively than European types.

Swarming is the natural means of reproduction for honeybees. Crowding is a primary cause of swarming and some colonies show more tolerance to crowding than others. Swarming is also influenced to a great degree by the climate and nectar flow characteristics. In general, areas having a long warm period in early spring with intermittent nectar flows and rainy periods that confine the bees to the hive will have the most intense swarming. By contrast, those areas having a long and cool buildup period and a sudden, intense nectar flow will experience swarming to a lesser degree. Regardless of location, swarming is one of the unique activities of bees that must be controlled to produce honey. According to Brother Adam, Greek bees (Apis Mellifera Cecropia) show the least inclination to swarm.

Winter hardiness is required in all areas of the United States and Canada but is of less importance in the southern United States. Carniolans show a good wintering ability as also does the intermissa race group. Brother Adam reports that Anatolian and cyprian bees show the best winter hardiness which is surprising because of their mediterranean origin. Italians have a less developed wintering ability which has prevented them from being imported into areas that experience extremes of cold in winter. Bees of the intermissa race group range up to the Arctic Circle which indicates that crossbreeding and selection with these hardy bees could dramatically improve wintering ability.

Body size and anatomical structure varies among different race groups. Currently, the largest bee is from the Rif Mountains of Morocco (Apis Mellifera major nova). Some of the African races tend to be the smallest. Tongue length, leg length, abdominal size, wing size, and virtually all anatomical features show some variation.

Tongue length and wing size have a significant effect on the honey crop. Antennae structure affects the sense of smell and touch and possibly other senses that we do not fully understand. This affects the bee's sense of orientation in finding the right hive, and affects foraging behavior because the bee can smell nectar at a greater distance. Drone antennae are much more sensitive than worker antennae. Most other anatomical features are of little importance because they do not significantly influence the honey crop.

The time of brood development is genetically determined with races such as carniolans having an abrupt spring buildup and caucasians having a long slow summer buildup. This is of importance because a strain that reaches peak development at the beginning of the major nectar flow gathers the most honey.

Thrift is the tendency to raise brood at the right time to gather honey and to slow down or stop brood rearing when there is no nectar flow. Most parts of the United States experience a major spring nectar flow followed later by a fall flow. This requires a corresponding spring peak of brood rearing and another peak in the fall. Italians show a tendency to such a development cycle but are unthrifty because they continue to raise large amounts of brood through the summer between flows. Bees adapt rapidly to an area when selection is used, or adapt more slowly when natural selection occurs. By one estimate, about 50 to 100 years of living and surviving in a given area results in an adapted strain. Maximum thrift is obtained when bees are genetically adapted to the local nectar flow conditions.

Honey arrangement and type of honey collected vary considerably with Italians tending to collect light colored honey and to store it above and out of the brood nest. In one instance, I had a colony of Italians beside a colony of german descent. The Italians gathered three shallow supers of beautiful golden honey while the germans gathered two supers of dark bad tasting honey. Carniolans also tend to collect lighter colored honey.


Some races of bees hoard pollen more aggressively. This is of importance where bees are used for pollination. The previously mentioned german bees collected and stored twice as much pollen as the Italians. They crowded the brood nest with pollen and stored pollen in every super of honey rendering it unfit for use as chunk comb honey. If pollination were of primary importance, then these bees would have been excellent. This trait can be selected for fairly rapidly by simply measuring the amount of pollen collected by a colony relative to the amount of brood in the colony and comparing with other similar colonies.

Comb and capping structure vary considerably. Size and length and cell angle from horizontal all vary by race and by strain. Cappings range in color from gray to white and in shape from flat to ridged to domed. Italian cappings are generally flat and white with raised ridges over the surface of the comb. Brother Adam's buckfast bees build white slightly dome shaped cells which improves the appearance of comb and chunk comb honey. White cappings are a result of an air gap between the cell cap and the honey in the cell. Dark cappings result when there is no air gap. Brood cappings and drone cell cappings for most races are dome shaped although there is considerable variation on this point. Some members of the intermissa race group add propolis to the wax used for cappings. This gives a dirty gray capping which ruins comb honey.

Calmness is the ability to stay fast on a comb during examination without nervous motion. Carniolans tend to be very calm with Italians less so. German black bees tend to be very nervous and jittery. I have opened hives that no amount of smoke would calm and I have opened others so calm that smoke was not even needed. Selection work for good temper shows conclusively that bees can be gentle and outstandingly productive. Note that the buckfast strain currently available in the United States is more aggressive than the strain Brother Adam was propagating 30 years ago. This appears to be the result of a greater focus on breeding for productivity and disease resistance.

Propolis collection and use varies considerably with Caucasians being heavy users and Egyptian bees using none.  The average Italian or carniolan colony collects much more propolis than beekeepers would like. There is some conjecture that propolis collection may be connected to wintering ability. One of the greatest improvements we could make in bees today would be to reduce the amount of propolis collected. Unfortunately, very few selection programs have emphasized this much-needed trait. 

Brace and bridge comb is built between combs and causes headaches for beekeepers because moveable combs become almost unmovable. This can be especially messy during spring inspection when brood combs have to be scraped and pried out of position. There is enough variation in this tendency that selection results in significant reduction in these structures. Brother Adam records that cyprian bees build very little bridge and brace comb.


Bee color varies from very light yellow to orange to brown to black. Bee hair color ranges from white to gray to yellow to black. Bees that are selected with color being a major emphasis invariably lose characteristics of greater importance such as honey gathering ability. A strain descended from Italians and known as golden Italians was developed several years ago but never achieved commercial importance because they didn't produce enough honey and didn't winter well. I have a much greater preference for productive bees than for pretty bees.

This list is by no means complete. According to one reference, the honeybee genome contains over 30,000 genes and each gene could have innumerable variations. Almost all the items I have listed are controlled by large numbers of genes. Bees adapt genetically to an area over a period of years based on survival of the fittest. The amount of genetic variation in honeybees shows that nature is a very harsh taskmaster. There is no absolute best bee, just a better adapted bee.


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## Bob Harrison

Fusion-Power,
Interesting list. Bet you spent many hours work putting together the list. 
Bee Breeding is not an exact science. In fact programs using only open mating in areas of other beekeepers or other lines of bees produce poor results many times.
The situation would be easier if you could place a queen & a drone in a mason jar and get a mating. Even a picture of a mating was a long time coming!
My point is that control over the mating is key. Why in livestock each animal is registered (pedigree) and each mating documented. You can't have the shaggy dog from across the fence breeding your show poodles!


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## Jon D.

I've always wondered about some of these topics in bee breeding. Thanks for posting the list. I have a question though.

Suppose you have a hive that has 6 good qualities and 2 bad ones. In a way you would want to cull them, or not select your breeder from this hive, as it has the 2 bad traits. However, in so doing, you lose the 6 good traits. Is there a way to selectively propigate those 6 good traits, while simultaneously eliminating the 2 bad traits? 

Also, as one who is getting ready to dabble is this "black art" known as breeding,  Is there any way to control this trait selectivness with open mating, or are those solutions only available to AI?


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## Bob Harrison

Jon,
My opinion is you concentrate at first on the breeders with the good qualities you are breeding for and then keep selecting until you can eliminate the bad traits. 
I see no other way.
Almost all qee breeding is done by open mating around the world. Do not be afraid to raise queens from your breeder hive and open mate. At least you control part of the genetics in your program. 
You can also use drone colonies to try and control a higher percent of the matings. Remote breeding yards are another option.

With instrumental insemination(II) you control all the genetics. People which want to be sure the queen they are grafting from has the mating they want insist on an II queen *to graft from*.

Reason Glenn Apiaries is always busy selling II queens.


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## Hook

For me, I look to tailor my queens, ultimately the bees they produce, to thrive in my area. Pa mountain winters are different every year. Thus a bee that survives the winter is a start. Second, I don't live in the south, so I have a shorter season, so I will need a fast starter, and one that works into cooler temps. After that, I like bees to not chase me down and try to kill me, are fairly calm on the combs, build comb fairly well, and produce a honey crop. Anything after that, is a luxury!

I have mixed SMR, carniolian, and italian. The carnys build really fast, italians build comb very well, and the SMR had a very nice brood pattern. After open mating with the ferals in the area, I have pretty much what I want. Now with II, I should be able to retain the luxuries!


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## Bob Harrison

I am surprised the SMR had a very nice brood pattern. We had two Glenn apiaries II SMR breeder queens from which we grafted many larva and raised many queens. *All* daughters had spotty brood patterns. Too inbred we figured. Although we were not pleased with the bees from our Glenn Apiaries SMR breeder queens we were pleased with the varroa count from these hives. I kept both lines (red & yellow) around for about three years before requeening with better stock.
The SMR breeder queens became drone layers within a year.
We introduced the trait into our bees but saw little use for raising queens directly from the SMR breeder queens.
Maybe others will share better results as the above is only mine.


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## Jon D.

Dale,

You mention that now you "have pretty much what I want", as far as traits and qualities in a breed of bees. Then you say "Now with II, I should be able to retain these luxuries".

Do you Instrumentally Inseminate yourself? Or is there some way of sending off a drone you like, with a virgin queen to be II, and sent back?

Also, as far a acquiring the traits you found useful. How did you organize your program? Was it like this...

1) Look for hives with the best winter survival.
After gaining that trait,

2) From those hives, look for hives that start faster. After gaining that trait, etc...

So if I'm reading it right, you have a small population of hives (say 5), from which you continue to select breeders that exhibit your desired traits, culling the rest. And each successive season you look for one trait at at time, until you've finished the list. Then you just try to maintain purity in the line, using II or whatever? How long does a program like that take? 10 yrs.? 12 yrs.?


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## WG Bee Farm

I have used a SMR Carn. as a breeder since 2000 & a SMR Minn. Hyg. since 2001. The actual breeders last average 1 season and die before the next queen rearing season. The open mated daughters of these breeders have alway exhibited very full brood patterns. This is the first year that last years breeders have lasted this long. They are still alive and laying good patterns.(even though I am using them for drone mothers)
The first year 1999 I did lose one within 3 months and had to reorder, but it has not happened since. I have changed since the first year and only keep them in 8 framers and restrict their laying by adding foundation and removing bees.
Frank


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## peggjam

Fusion_power:

Thanks for the countless hours spent preparing that post, very informative. I plan on "dabbling" with a little queen breeding, and this will help with that activity.

peggjam


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## ikeepbees

Frank - sent a pm to you.

Fusion - thanks for the informative post.


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## power napper

Thanks Fusion-power for sharing all your work.


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## Hook

-->How long does a program like that take? 10 yrs.? 12 yrs.?

Reply--> Actually, it will take about seven years. The purpose of what I am trying to accomplish, does not include any race to a finish line. I take alot of pride in raising my queens, and I'm searching for results that might benifit others. I am not concerned with production at this time, but I have made stides in honey production, mite tolerance, wintering, gentleness....the list goes on. Further, combination breeding takes time, results are not shown in a month, it takes about a year to see results. Anything under a year, does not mean anything to me, because I want to see the bees throughout an entire season. Sometimes bees perform very well in the beginning, and basically fizzle out later on, or they kill themselves, because they starve, ect.


--> *All* daughters had spotty brood patterns. Too inbred we figured. Although we were not pleased with the bees from our Glenn Apiaries SMR breeder queens we were pleased with the varroa count from these hives.

Reply--> I purchased 2 SMR queens from Drapers, about 5 years ago. I have been told over and over on this forum, how they suck, and how they do not retain any traits. I have heard all of the studies, ect. All I can say, is I get full frames of brood, that are very tight, mite counts, using sugar shake method, that are acceptable through the Penn State bee program that I am involved in, and haven't treated. I use IPM management techniques that are mostly standard. I am on small cell right now, but am experimenting with a few hives on regular cells. 

The feral swarms that I remove, that have gone untreated, have shown some results, but have not made it through an entire year.I pay attention to details, and have learned a few things from the feral bee removal, that may explain mite tolerance. 

All of these things are a factor in my breeding program, and it might just take 12 years.


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## cmq

The "Pure SMR Breeders" that Mr. Harrison is referring to is not the same bee as the SMR's purchased from Drapers or any other open mated queen rearer. So both of you fellas are correct!!Same goes with Sue Cobey's NWC's, The USDA's Russians or Marla Spivak's MHI. A $15 queen that is open mated is most likely a hybrid no question about it!. If you desire a "pure breeder" it will cost you, if you want a guaranteed tested breeder get your pocket book out. Either way, unless you rear queens, you probably don't want a breeder as the production of the F1 cross of any of the above bees will more than likely exceed that of the Queen moms. However most beekeepers simply dont understand that traits such as hygienic behavior, and groomoing behavior are controlled by several double recessive genes and the likely hood of every queen bee produced having all of these triats are minute. Thats why we use I.I. and then its not 100%. Truth is there are alot of unanswered questions. Raising queens from your open mated stock, survivor stock is desirable but will still yield some mixed results, as will any thing that is raised from hybrid stock. Why do you think farmers no longer save their seed corn from the hybrid varieties that is now raised.


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## Fusion_power

I thought carefully before resurrecting this thread. It has several topics that are worth re-reading.... and contributions from several members who don't seem to show up very much if at all any more.

Apis Mellifera Lamarckii should be on our target screen to try to get some pure stock back in the U.S. because of its inherent hygienic behavior and lack of propolis collection. This ecotype happens to have two very desirable traits but also one very undesirable trait of not properly forming a winter cluster.

DarJones


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## David LaFerney

This is a question not at all a jibe - Why not just use one or two metrics - productivity, and perhaps gentleness? Aren't those the only things that really matter? It seems to me that we need bees that make honey and are gentle enough to safely keep and manage. 

It seems to me that breeding for individual traits other than those two could result in unforeseen consequences. For some reason English bull dogs come to mind.

I suspect that open mating may be a blessing that saves us from our own good intentions.


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## Michael Palmer

David LaFerney said:


> Why not just use one or two metrics - productivity, and perhaps gentleness? Aren't those the only things that really matter?


Well, maybe this doesn't apply as strongly in TN, but I think the most important trait to select for in the ability to winter.


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## Solomon Parker

Michael Palmer said:


> ...I think the most important trait to select for in the ability to winter.


That's the primary consideration in my yard. I don't do anything with a stock unless it survives the first winter at the very least. Next year, we'll talk about increasing with them.


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## David LaFerney

I would agree with that - I guess I should have said productivity under cultural practices. For most of us that would include survival. Bees that don't survive don't produce. On the other hand if your cultural practice includes starting over every spring with packages - then it isn't an issue for you. I don't think that would ever be my choice, but it isn't unheard of. Same would apply to feeding or treatments, or screened bottom boards for that matter. There's probably never going to be one line of super bees that does everything for everyone.


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## VolunteerK9

I started a notebook at the beginning of this year and made special notes on each hives queen. The two traits that I made special notes on to breed from next year was how early and how strong of a buildup and honey production. Then next year, I will add more traits to my selective breeding criteria. Call me crazy, but gentleness is way down on my list. I wear a kevlar vest at work everyday, might as well wear the full battle gear to work my bees too.


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## Oldtimer

Interested in your comment Bob re the spotty brood from the II queens. I've bought in some queens produced by II, to select for some trait, normally VSH, and they've all had spotty brood, it's a lack of alleles causing some eggs to be removed by the bees. Kind of a two edged sword, in order to combine recessive genes you need to line breed. Some of these bees are also prone to a lot of sack brood, in the ones I got, anyway. I open mate and outcross these bees, which eventually solves the spotty brood, but also lose the VSH. Catch 22.

As far as what traits I look for, some will dissagree but the primary thing I go for is gentleness. If I'm going to be working bees all day it might as well be pleasant. After that, non swarming. Nothing that tried to swarm will get bred from. Reason, swarm control and management is one of the most time consuming sides of beekeeping plus if they do swarm it's a big waste of resources.

Course I want more good traits than that, but if those two aren't there, they are not even considered.


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## valleyman

Thanks Dar for reposting this. It captured my attention all the way thru, and I have a short attention span. There is so much info that is hard to find in one place. I think it goes to show how little has changed over the last several years. Change comes slowly to the bee world. Lots of people can't understand that. While I'm very inexperienced that is one of the things that I have learned. I would venture to say that when some of the wise posters that were the original commenters on this thread there was not as many irrelevant, close to nonsense post on this forum. I think this has driven away several wise participants. I'm not wise but it has discouraged me. There are too many on here that are just bloggers and not serious about helping the bees.
OT, 
If they are going to swarm excessivly then production is going to be down, not just honey , but brood, drawn comb, and everything else. It seems to me that the excessive swarmers are also the ones that are the least gentle. I would like to hear other comments about that.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Lamarkii was brought into the south by southern bee breeders before the ban in the 1920's for one reason, to be crossed with Italian bees. The Egyption bees have a nice golden color that breeders wanted to incorporate into their Italian lineages.....The bee that is being resurrected that will be of great use to the industry, is the Mountain Gray Caucasian. They do not overpropolize, and are winter hardy, do not swarm much, are mite resistant because of too much body hair. And are good honey producers. I have Lamarkii genetics in my bees along the Lower Tallapoosa. It is not a bad bee but has some quirky traits that set it apart from mainline Italian stock in the operation. TED


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## Oldtimer

valleyman said:


> If they are going to swarm excessivly then production is going to be down, not just honey , but brood, drawn comb, and everything else. It seems to me that the excessive swarmers are also the ones that are the least gentle. I would like to hear other comments about that.


 Yes that's part of the selection dilema, bees that are more vigorous will sometimes be more vigorous at everything, including reproduction, defence, and swarming. So you don't want to get fooled by a hive that didn't try to swarm, but the real reason was it wasn't as strong as the ones that did. However there are some bees, that when all other factors are equal, will swarm more, or less, than others. Gentle, and productive, and lessor swarming bees do exist. But aggression, swarming, plus higher honey production if you don't let them swarm, often go together.


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## Fusion_power

The Egyptian bee A.M. Lamarckii has three traits that make it highly interesting from a breeding perspective.
1. Hygienic behavior is most developed compared to all other geographic races, 30% of unselected colonies rate highly hygienic, 70% are moderately hygienic.
2. They have a very highly developed sense of orientation which significantly reduces drifting
3. They are the only race that does not collect propolis.

The Egyptians also have some very bad traits:
1. They do not form a winter cluster
2. They are significantly aggressive
3. They are very poor honey producers because their brood development is not in sync with a temperate climate.

The Saharan bee A.M. Saharensis has three traits as well that we could badly use. 
1. They forage over a very wide region
2. They have an extremely high egg laying potential
3. They have a natural tendency to produce very few drones. Did you ever see worker combs chewed out and replaced with drone cells? Well, Saharans don't do it.

Cyprians are interesting for some other traits.
1. They produce very high numbers of queen cells for swarming, this would be an advantage for queen breeders
2. They are extremely calm in winter resulting in very low use of winter stores
3. They are very intent when foraging with a highly developed level of hoarding behavior.

One note that Brother Adam made re Carniolans is that they have very little brood disease in their native environment. This is probably not based on hygienic behavior. Unselected Carniolans test out at 1 colony in 10 having some hygienic behavior. Only 1 in 100 has highly developed hygienic behavior. The advantages and disadvantages of hygienic traits can be debated, but generally are desirable. New World Carniolans are being selected to increase hygienic traits which will lead to long term improvement in brood disease resistance.

Apis Mellifera Mellifera which we used to have in such abundance in this area have the most incredible spring brood rearing buildup. You can talk about Carniolans building up fast in the spring but there is no comparison to a good strain of Mellifera. I split a colony of Mellifera several years ago in early march. They had 3 frames of brood and enough bees to barely cover it at the time of the split. I gave a queen to each of the three splits and within 6 weeks had three powerhouse colonies that made a huge crop of honey. This could not have been done with Italians or Carniolans.

DarJones


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## Ted Kretschmann

You do seem to have a nice pocket of AMM still surviving up in your area. I went to the dismals park a few years back and was surpised to see a colony of AMM thriving in a hollow tree along the nature trail....One other quirky trait that Lamarkii has. They do not mate in DCA's. Rather the virgin queen will leave and small swarm of bees will go with her. Drones then are attracted to the mating swarm. Mating takes place in the swarm. When the job is done the whole mass returns to the hive... This is one of a handfull of races that do this. Quirky yes, but it works well for Lamarkii and Lamarkii derived stock. Most races, the virgin queen goes to the DCA's and mate where the boys have gathered and then returns to the colony to do her matriarchial duties. So Dar, how do you propose we get these "new" genetics. Have you contacted Baton Rouge for permitting the collection of semen of these bees in their native countries for importation??? TED


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## Fusion_power

There is still quite a bit of AMM all across North Alabama.

I emailed Tom Rinderer to ask about importing semen and/or eggs. I probably won't get a reply until sometime next week.

Not to say that I have everything in line to import, but I would like to know the process.

DarJones


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## Ted Kretschmann

The bees will have to stay out on the "island" off the Louisanna coast for a couple of years before you can bring them ashore to work with them. TED


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## Adam Foster Collins

Can you guys give us a footnote on who/what you're talking about? Just for the sake of interest?

Tom Rinderer/importing/"the island"?

Adam


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## Fusion_power

Importing honeybees for any reason into the U.S. requires an isolation protocol to ensure no unwanted hitchhikers come with them. The only time I know that this was skipped was in 1990 when a group of Buckfast queens were imported to help curb the tracheal mite invasion.

The bees/semen/eggs you want to import require a permit. Live bees are virtually guaranteed to be rejected unless they come from an approved supplier such as New Zealand. Once you have a permit, the stock has to be placed on an island in the Gulf of Mexico where it can be observed for 2 years to see if any significant diseases or pests came along for the ride. After the isolation period, the bees can bee brought to the mainland for breeding work. Note that after 2 years most of the original imported stock will have died so you will likely get descendants. Tom Rinderer is manager of the Bee Lab at Baton Rouge, LA. Any import request ultimately will wind up on his desk.

Here is a nice article about Lamarckii that makes for very interesting reading.

http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2003/02/M3214.pdf

DarJones


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## Fusion_power

Here is an article about the egyptian bees.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/b382733j41m037m1/fulltext.pdf


and here is a nice article about africanization in the southern U.S. including some data on residual Lamarckii genetics.

http://repository.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/203/etd-tamu-2003C-ENTO-Pinto-1.pdf?sequence=1

DarJones


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## rrussell6870

Fusion_power said:


> 1. EGG LAYING RATE
> 2. EGG VIABILITY RATE
> 3. BROOD CYCLE TIME
> 4. BROOD NURTURING
> 5. FORAGING AGGRESSIVENESS
> 6. TIME OF FORAGING
> 7. DISEASE RESISTANCE
> 8. PEST RESISTANCE
> 9. DEFENSIVE BEHAVIOR
> 10. SWARMING TENDENCY
> 11. WINTER HARDINESS
> 12. LIFE SPAN
> 13. BODY SIZE
> 14. SENSE OF SMELL
> 15. HYGIENIC CLEANING BEHAVIOR
> 16. TIME OF BROOD DEVELOPMENT
> 17. THRIFT
> 18. HONEY ARRANGEMENT
> 19. POLLEN COLLECTION
> 20. TYPE OF HONEY COLLECTED
> 21. COMB BUILDING
> 22. CAPPING STRUCTURE
> 23. PROPOLIS COLLECTION
> 24. BRACE COMB CONSTRUCTION
> 25. ABDOMINAL COLOR
> 26. ANTENNAE STRUCTURE


There are a few of these criteria that have to be broken down into multiple specific mechanics or traits before they can properly be identified and selected for. It's a very broad list and there are several things listed that can effect each other, thus again requiring a full breakdown of the mechanics that cause a colony to perform well or poorly within each category... 

Disease resistance for example is also dependant upon Pest resistance (in its many forms), Foraging behavior, Distance of foraging, Build up timing, nest arrangement, cluster sizing, speed of development, propolis production, etc... 

We identify and select for over 200 specific mechanics or traits and grade each colony after considering the effects of the particular situation... those that score high enough are bred in multiple crosses, then the daughters are re-evaluated the following season and the choice performers from that group are then graduated to the breeding pool for the following season... then traits that are specifically maternal as opposed to paternal are considered and promoted accordingly... hope this helps.


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## heaflaw

Are those listed in order of importance?


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## Oldtimer

Some good food for thought in that list.


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## rrussell6870

Guess I should point out, that this is not my list... its a cut-and-paste from the first post of this thread...


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## rrussell6870

Order of importance is where most either get confused or overwhelmed... thanks for bringing that up because hopefully I can save some frustration for those that are trying to done tune their selection program...

The first thing to keep in mind is that you want to look at each colony for specific traits, not so much for a compilation of those traits... this trips up a lot of people, so its important to keep reminding yourself that you are STUDYING the colony to identify its characteristics, not looking for a mother colony...

Reason being, one colony may not score the highest in a brood freeze/timed removal test, but scores high on swarm testing, and high in forage distance testing... the hygienic trait is recessive, so that will be addressed during the next cycle and can be re-evaluated in the next level of testing... the swarm triggering is a maternal trait so grafting this colony could promote that trait evenly across the board at 47-50%... the foraging distance is a paternal trait, so this says that THIS generation has can promote that trait and so again grafting this colony can promote this trait at 47-50% across the board... so a hive that would have been passed up simply because it was not the highest scoring in hygiene, could be used to promote very useful traits in the long run, by first producing daughters and mating them in accordance with what you deem need more attention, then re-evaluate the colonies of the daughters over the following season...

So by simply identifying the strengths and weaknesses of each colony by identifying the levels each mechanic or trait within each one... then do your calculations from the results after you have a completed analysis on each colony...

To simply this process, you first need to set up your priorities... are you looking to promote resistances, promote better overwintering rates, promote better honey production, less defensiveness, etc... pretty much any bee will have some good points, and if you cannot find Any, its time to scrap the stock and start fresh with a diverse group, then try to promote the key benefits of each strain... but in most cases, there are some good qualities somewhere that you can start with... once you have learned to identify those qualities and promote them, you can remove the unwanted qualities while promoting the desirable ones... 

For example... Your bees may be very productive, but somewhat more defensive than your friends, and you may not have quite the overwintering success that he has, even though your management practices and climates are very similar... so you may decide to focus on boasting resistances to lessen the stresses of varroa that could lead to the defensiveness and poorer overwintering... to do so, you first need to select a breeding pool...

start by finding the highlights out of your operation... the most productive hives in each yard, the ones that seem to always be healthy come spring, etc... then you find the pitfalls of your operation... the hives that produced the least, sting the most, etc... 

Remove every bit of the drone comb that you can find in the poor colonies and requeen them with queens produced by the better colonies, but not the ones that build up super early... this is usually best done in early spring, just when you are pushing the envelope on drone availability... the drones that will be present during this period will usually be from the colonies that boomed perfectly to meet the first flow... thus you now have a deeper pool to play with... spend that full year recording the characteristics of each hive and continue to requeen aggressive hives, but this time use queens from the early boomers... in the next spring, you should have a really good idea of the attributes of your hives and you should have removed enough of the poor qualities that you will not have such a hard time finding stock to select from... so this season you will be able to select the top hives from each characteristic that you are after... 

Now you want to use produce drones from both your highest producing hives, and your resistant hives, while producing queens from your heavy layers that built up perfectly on the spring... these queens will be used in splits and the identification and selection process should be continued...

So starting from scratch, you can spend four years developing your stocks across the board while developing your own ability to identify, promote, and remove traits... on that fourth year, you will want to compare you reports next to each of the previous years... you will be very surprised at how far a stock can come in that short of a time by following these practices... 

I worked with a gentleman that had been noticing his stock getting more and more aggressive and his production dwindling more and more, as well as his winter successes... after four years, he had gone from 34% winter losses to 2% winter losses... he said that he actually enjoyed working his bees again instead of just rushing through his tasks so he could get away from the stinging... and his average production had risen from 47#s to 119#s... I call that a job well done... this man had been working bees for fifty years and said that he felt like he had fallen in a rut until he stopped looking at only the "hive" as if it were the trait, and started promoting the traits... he stopped promoting inbreeding, started promoting exactly what he was selecting for in the first place, and found himself learning from and enjoying his bees again.

Hope this helps.


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## Fusion_power

When reading through the above, you will see that good records are a crucial part of any selection program. I have a nearly photographic memory. It allows me to do a huge amount of work in my head. But when it comes to colony selection, you must be able to maintain records and refer to them regularly. This is why it is crucial to get in the habit of rating each and every colony consistently and based on the same standard.

Another concern is complementarity. You can see hints of it in RRussell's advice. So as an example, if one colony has outstanding production and another colony has highly developed non-swarming traits, you might want to raise queens from the non-swarming colony and provide drones from colonies that have high production. The important thought is that they are complementary to each other.

As noted, the above are complex traits. You have to break down a complex trait to more manageable and scoreable traits. Take as an example Longevity. This trait in and of itself would seem to be an absolute positive for the colony, but you will find that as longevity goes up, foraging behavior often goes down. An increase in lifespan is associated with reduced production which is not really a positive when you consider that the objective was to increase lifespan while also increasing production.

What about tongue length? It is a selectable trait. With just 4 generations of selection, you can produce a bee that has a tongue 2 mm longer than average. Is it highly desirable? That depends on the forage plants available. All else being equal, longer tongues would be a nice enhancement but most of the time will not be a primary trait to select.

DarJones


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## Daniel Y

This link is a long read and is not about bees. But for those interested it is a fantastic study in what is involved in an effective breeding and selection program.
It concerns the production of Genetic Hackle, more commonly known as the feathers used in making flies for fly fishing. This artical is written about a person that has made amazing progress in this field over the past 20 years or so. Has actually accomplished what was considered impossible. Think about things like a bee immune to mites. And a detail explanation of the process he uses to achieve it.
Pay particular attention to the importance of selection pressure. Selection pressure has a direct effect on progress toward the chosen trait.

I think it is a very effective tool to help those considering breeding get a clearer idea on many issues. What is selection? what is a healthy genetic pool? what benefits are there to in breeding, line breeding, and exactly how do you isolate a specific trait?

It is written in more of a casual form but is on a complicated subject. I think it will have several "oh wow" moments for anyone that gives it a careful reading. One of the best articals I have ever read on breeding and what it really involves. Not all of it translates to bees but many of the underlying principals will.

http://www.uncleginkscave.com/GC-WhitingHackleFarms.html


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## Fusion_power

Here is an article about the native desert adapted bee of Saudi Arabia, Apis Mellifera Jemenitica.
http://www.pensoft.net/inc/journals/download.php?fileId=2981&fileTable=J_GALLEYS

These bees are significantly smaller than European bees and they are adapted to an extremely hot dry climate. One caution about the taxonomy in the article, it does not agree in some respects with current accepted structure. This article seems to use info from Ruttner about 30 years ago. Work by Engel refined the taxonomy significantly and moved the species around a bit in the four groups.

DarJones


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## deknow

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Mountain Gray Caucasian...do not overpropolize, and are winter hardy, do not swarm much, are mite resistant because of too much body hair.


Hi Ted, I believe you mentioned this in another thread regarding the Mountain Grays...specifically that the tracheal mite resistance isn't due to exposure for selection, but other selection factors that led to increased body hair...I believe you even referenced Danka on this.

In contrast:http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=411


> According to Dr. Robert Danka, the mechanism for tolerance (he uses the term resistance ) is that populations of tracheal mites are reduced by honey bees grooming themselves (autogrooming).3 He concludes: It does not appear that differences in cuticle chemistry, the presence of hairs surrounding the prothoracic spiracles, or grooming among nest mates are major determinants of resistance. Perhaps, but there has been evidence that the transfer of mites from bee to bee may be affected by these


Is there more recent data on this?
deknow


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## Ted Kretschmann

Contact Dr. Shepard at Washington state. He and Spivak are working on the Mountain Gray project. I am part of the group that will hopefully be recieving stock for breeding. The excess hair is a cold adaptation but makes it hard for mites to feed. Sadly Bill Gafford, who, along with myself had written letters to USDA for Shepard in support of bringing this bee back into the USA, did not live to see the bee brought back into the USA. TED


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## heaflaw

Thanks Russell


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## saltyoldman

Russell thank you very much for your post! I found it most informative and leading to tons of questions, mainly surronding maternal and paternal traits. How can I learn more about what traits are maternal or paternal and which traits are recessive... or is this information only garnered from years of observation and reading... Is there one good publication that would detail traits?


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## kilocharlie

I'd been hoping for a list like this to come along, and for Bob Russel to open up a bit on it. I was wondering what percent of your colonies were selected for breeding, or if it was done strictly on traits shown? The best half of your group will have more genetic diversity, but less progress toward your selected trait than will the best quarter of your group, and so on as the selectivity increases. What level of selectivity do you prefer? Or is the percentage of selected breeders in the group not as important as the degree to which the desired trait shows up?


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## Fusion_power

Not to answer for RRussell, but once you stabilize a given set of traits, it gets down not to selecting based on a specific trait, but rather to excluding a specific line because one of the traits is not adequately expressed.

Lets say the set of selected traits are:
1. non-swarming
2. gentle
3. low production of drones
4. high egg laying rate
5. low level of brace comb

Now you score a colony on a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is worst and 10 is best for the given trait:
1 - 8
2 - 10
3 - 7
4 - 9
5 - 5

Presuming most of the colonies being rated gave comparable results, this colony might be excluded from breeding by the low score on brace comb. This colony exhibits excellent gentleness and high egg laying rate but has a slight tendency to swarm. If this colony were being used for breeding, it could be used to supply drones which would be mated to queens reared from a line that scored higher in non-swarming and brace comb.

A good selection program would obviously use many more traits than the subset above.

DarJones


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## svtkpr

Out of the list of traits which are on the queen side and which are on the drone side?


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## VolunteerK9

svtkpr said:


> Out of the list of traits which are on the queen side and which are on the drone side?


Good question. If I am wanting something as basic as darker colored bees, would I breed my dark colored drones with Italian colored queens or the opposite?


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## Oldtimer

Well for color, either or.

Couple things to think about though, if you breed italian queens then open mate with mostly dark drones, you'll get bees af many colors in the hive as there will be many fathers. But the drones will be italian. So If you are looking for long term change to a dark bee breed dark queens, which will produce dark drones, to continue the dark color into the future.


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## Fusion_power

A boiled down synopsis of color inheritance in bees is that there are 2 major genes affecting color and 6 or 7 modifying genes. Yellow from the Y gene is dominant over black. The Scutellata gene AC is dominant. From that point, segregation gives a range of colors from pure yellow to solid black.

http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/revistaselectronicas/woyke/108.PDF

Brother Adam made the point that color should be the least of the worries of a bee breeder. I would add a caveat that there is a survival advantage for black bees in colder climates.

DarJones


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## VolunteerK9

Fusion_power said:


> Brother Adam made the point that color should be the least of the worries of a bee breeder.
> DarJones


I understand that and its probably very true. However, being new to queen rearing with the exception of making splits with cells etc, color is probably the easiest and quickest way for me to determine how my matings turned out. Other traits would take time to show up. 

As a side note, Im not looking to make my queens the next super bee for mass market. Im simply wanting to raise a few for myself and have fun doing it while I learn.


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## kilocharlie

Volunteer - I would consider starting to keep meticulous records and devising a grading system for individual traits, as Robert Russel hinted at. Since he has not divulged all the male-passed versus female-passed traits on his 200+ trait tracking queen sheets, one would have to go about AI breeding both ways (drone mother trait and queen mother trait) and grading the resulting offspring queens to determine which was passed by whom. Color is a side note, and as Old Timer noted, if you are open mating, you'll get as many colors as fathers (and little valuable info).

You might not be trying to make the next super bee, but you'll learn more than by guessing from colors.


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## Daniel Y

I find this thread very interesting but I do have a couple of questions.

I am interested in the education that is behind all of this. I realize the list of people can get very long so that question may not really be answerable. I am mainly thinking of the list presented here how ti was compiled and by whom. More importantly those that are behind the methods of selection.

At one point the number 200 has come up in regard to traits that can be selected for. Are colonies evaluated on all 200? IF so I find it hard to believe that any effective selection can happen. As an example if you have a colony that is the best you have ever seen on 1 trait. but losses ground on 199. how will you ever make forward progress? It is my understanding that if you have 200 traits you probably need 200 breeding programs. each one focused on a single trait or at best a set of traits that are closely linked to each other. That trait is developed to an extreme degree and then those specimens are crossed with specimens from another breeding program in an attempt to combine them and improve both characteristic in the new line. Even this usually results in a loss of quality in both traits although an overall improvement from past generations.

As an example you have colony 1 that produces 50 lbs of honey a year and swarms terribly. You then develop from this hive line A and line B. Line A is bred and selected for honey production. Line B is selected for lower tenancy to swarm. After 5 generations you then breed line A back to line B and the result is colony 2 which does not produce as much honey as line A or is as good in regards to swarming as line B but it does out preform Colony 1 in both regards. And the bees are mean as all get out. So once again you split colony 2 into lines A and B still focused on the same trait while you also add a line C that addresses temperament. 
Now think this out across 200 traits. You can't select a colony based upon temperament one generation and then select from that line for honey production the next generation. What progress have you made and you just threw it away when you changed what you are selecting for.

Even worse. Unless the selection is continued all traits are lost anyway. They will be lost very quickly. This means that even if you managed to selectively breed the mite immune bee. you could sell those queens and within just a few generations that immunity would be lost. The Immunity trait would have to be continuously supplied from the original breeding program and that only by continuing the focused breeding and selection.

As a real life example found in the link I posted earlier. Roosters through very intense breeding and selection have been developed that grow 12 inch long or longer saddle feathers. This alone was considered to be impossible. Not only that but these impossible feathers are being produced with qualities that make them suitable for some of the most demanding qualities a feather can be asked to have. Consistent length of fibers the length of the quill. fibers that are not to course and not to fine, color. A quill that is not to think as to be fragile but not so thick it cannot be wrapped around the shank of a hook. not only will the quill wrap around the shank of a hook but it will lay flat and not twist in doing so. As you can see even that list gets pretty long. But if the selection pressure was removed for even a few generations. every one of those roosters would revert back to producing short spear point shaped saddle feathers that are useless for making dry flys.

Okay I wrote all that to give you a feel for how I understand thing. but based upon that understanding I question if breeding is the answer. or just leaving the bees alone and letting them revert back to being just bees? Not making a claim here. just making a case for a train of thought that basically says it is the meddling of man that is the root of the problem. maybe not meddling is the answer. Obviously far to simple but it is the basic idea.


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## Fusion_power

That is a pretty badly flawed summation. Here are some ways to change your mind and start to see how breeding works.

When working with an organism, you are working with a multitude of traits. These traits rarely can be broken down to single genes that control the trait. Consider that each gene is on a chromosome which can be thought of like a chain. While crossing over does occur, for most purposes chromosomes tend to stay together. This means that if two genes are relatively close on a chromomsome chain, then they tend to stay together and are inherited in a linked fashion.

You mention 200 traits that can be selected which was supposedly given by RRussell as the checklist he works with. I don't have 200 traits, but if you go down to the fine details, you could easily expand the list I provided into subtraits that could number in the thousands. Consider non-swarming as a trait.
1. Does not build queen cells when crowded
2. Tends to store honey away from the brood nest
3. Tends to build comb very early in the nectar flow.
4. Does not start drone cells early in the season

Now you have a single high end trait broken down into 4 sub-traits that contribute to non-swarming. Each of those three traits can now be broken down further.

Your example of splitting a breeding line into lines A and B is off just a bit. I would normally select two existing lines that exhibit the traits required and initiate the breeding program with existing selected stock. A highly productive line that tends to swarm would then be crossed with another line that may not be as productive but rarely swarms. Selection would focus on identifying colonies that don't swarm yet still produce a large crop of honey. Please note that what you are selecting for is hidden in this example. You are not selecting for high production or non swarming, you are really selecting for bees that produce the largest crop of honey with the least cost of management. In other words, bees that are efficient when managed.

Your real life example of the roosters is not valid. That is a highly selected population that has already passed the tipping point where selection is no longer a case of trying to include new traits but rather is trying to exclude negative traits. Even if you discontinued selection with the population, the traits for producing high quality hackle feathers would not disappear, they would just tend to median range of expression for the species, population, and traits in question. So long as the population of birds producing high quality hackle feathers is maintained separate from all other chickens, they will tend to retain the selected traits.

You state that the traits can be quickly lost. Point of fact is that once traits are selected and increased in a population, they never entirely go away unless the population is wiped out. Consider the dog. Does a dog behave like a wolf? Yet the dog was selected out of a population of wolves.

Now I will give a real life example for honeybees. Beekeepers figured out nearly 100 years ago (see Rothenbuhler) that some bees are more hygienic than others and that hygienic bees are more resistant to disease. When varroa mites hit, we found that a form of hygienic behavior controls uncapping and removal of mite infested brood. Over the last 20+ years, enough breeders finally got on the band wagon of selecting for hygienic behavior that the entire United States now has an increased population of hygienic bees. At the same time, natural populations of feral bees have been under pressure from varroa mites so that they too have developed increased hygienic behavior because the only bees that live are the bees that control varroa. The result is that we are now at the tipping point where the entire U.S. population of honeybees is becoming hygienic. This is an example of a group of traits increasing dramatically in a population where the selection pressure is extreme and unremitting. All that is needed now is for the remaining beekeepers who treat for mites to stop treating.

Just in case you don't believe it, watch for articles in Bee Culture in the next few months. There will be loud screaming and caterwauling as various "scientists" debate the issue. Pull up a chair and watch the show!

Take a look at this link and see how many breeders are involved in propagating VSH in their bees.

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/queenproducers.html

DarJones


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## Daniel Y

It appears to me that the selection effort with the bees is not so much trying to develop something new in the bees. Such as is the case with the chickens. But to make a conscious effort to examine colonies, recognize certain behaviors or traits that are considered beneficial. Then get those particular colonies widely spread as possible. No process of eliminating negative traits?
In very simple terms. Find the better bees and help them take over.
In the artical I linked to on the chickens it is even mentioned that those methods quickly become a matter or selecting against (Finding negative traits) rather than selecting for (Finding positive traits). In the case of bees the goal is the proliferation of colonies that have been selected for and that the best colony would be graded according to all positive qualities.
It makes since in my head so I am not sure I am getting it in type the way I am understanding it. I do see a clear distinction between what I think you have described and what I did.

Actually that sounds a heck of a lot easier than the chicken stuff.


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## Specialkayme

A very good thread, and a very good read. It took me a few days to get through it, and to be honest I'll probably have to read it a few more to fully grasp everything that was in here.

There is one thing that I just can't seem to get a grasp on. Everyone appears to be stressing the importance of taking uniform standard, periodic and accurate records of all the traits that the queens possess. Only by having all the data on all the traits that the queen's offspring show can you fully evaluate the genetic material's potential for future breeding. That makes sense.

What I'm a little confused about is what I should be looking for, how I should be looking for it, and how often I should be looking for it. I can come up with a list of 20 things I should be checking for, that isn't the hard part. But if some of those traits are connected, I'm actually only checking up on 10 things, even though I am collecting data on the others, if any of that makes sense. But for the time being, too much data is less of a problem than not enough. So how do you create a uniform standard in which to compare multiple hives? How do you objectively classify a hives "gentleness"? Or it's comb building abilities? Do you count the number of stings you get each visit, and assume the open hive popped you? How much of that comes down to operator error? How much propolis is too much? If you made a scale of 1-10, am I just arbitrarily assigning a number? What's to ensure that my "7" in one hive was actually less propolis than my "8" in another hive two weeks later?

I can see the ability to compare one trait over multiple hives, if you are only observing one trait, objectively through a means of a test. For example, placing a propolis trap on a hive and timing how long it takes them to fill it up would measure the hive's ability to collect propolis. But that would be sacrificing several other selected traits to spend a week testing one trait. By the time the summer is over I may be able to test each characteristic, but not each characteristic for each period throughout the summer. Plus, who is to say that my constant "testing" isn't changing the results? Maybe a hive didn't make it through the winter because I kept toying with them. Or maybe one hive doesn't collect enough pollen on week 2 because I caused all their foragers to go out and collect propolis in my experiment on week 1.

But, even assuming that I can wrap my head around that, how often should I really be checking for this stuff? Once a week?

Here's a good example. Lets say we are only looking at a queens ability to lay eggs. The more eggs the better (within some reason). This will vary based on the time of the season. Spring is likely to produce more eggs than fall. So, I obviously need to check for eggs laid in spring and fall, as well as periodically throughout to tell when they start to dial back. The only objective way to tell this is by taking the total square inch surface area of the open brood, dividing it by the time the open brood took to develop, to get an average square inch surface area laid per day. Doing it that way, I would have to re-check every 28 days, and re-measure the surface area of each hive every 28. If I have five hives, not bad. If I had 100, alot worse. Plus, doing it once every 28 days will only give me an average number for the preceding month. Is that acceptable? If I did it every 14 days and divided by two, it would be more accurate. 

Plus, the more I open the hive the more potential I have to change the outcome. The more dis-oriented the bees get after each inspection, the less productive they are, and the more "reorganization" and "recleaning" needs to take place.

But perhaps I'm WAY over thinking this (as, from time to time, I'm known to do). Does any of this sound like actual, logical concerns?

In the end:

1. What traits do you look for?

2. How do you measure those traits?

3. How often do you measure those traits?


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## Solomon Parker

Specialkayme said:


> If I have five hives, not bad. If I had 100, alot worse.


You can't check every hive right? And why would you? Certainly at a glance you should be able to discern as to whether the hive is one worth investigating or not, right?

Michael Palmer says something to the effect that a third of hives are great, a third are okay, and a third are junk. You're gonna know pretty quickly if a hive is very mean, and it's probably easy to tell if it's pretty mean, or even kinda mean.

I guess what I'm saying is unless you're searching for some obscure trait, the standouts should be fairly easy to find both in positives and negatives. But this is just conjecture, I've never had that many hives. For me, it's fairly easy to see which hives I want to breed from. This last year, there was only one of five. Currently, it's looking more like three of ten.

Somebody tell me if I'm off base, I'm trying to learn this as much as anyone.


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## jim lyon

Good post SpecK. You pose some good questions. As far as gentleness goes that is a tough one. I have marked hives that seem exceptionally mean one day only to find them a few weeks later not even remotely aggressive. Determining aggressiveness is so dependent on conditions such as weather, honey flow or even nightly skunk disruption that you have to judge them more on an average. Honey production also can be influenced by drift, tendency to rob and hive maturity just to name a few factors. My advice is to garner as much info as possible and take one long look at your best candidates in early spring and make your best guess. In the final analysis what determines the success of your new queens may be determined by how well mated they are more than any other factor.


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## Michael Palmer

Solomon Parker said:


> You can't check every hive right? And why would you? Certainly at a glance you should be able to discern as to whether the hive is one worth investigating or not, right?
> 
> Michael Palmer says something to the effect that a third of hives are great, a third are okay, and a third are junk. You're gonna know pretty quickly if a hive is very mean, and it's probably easy to tell if it's pretty mean, or even kinda mean.


Right. You're not looking at every colony in the operation as a possible breeder. Nature weeds out most as unsuitable...when compared to the rest of the apiary. The thing is, how do you select from the colonies that seemingly perform well enough to be considered possible breeding stock.

Selecting for some 200 traits as has been suggested isn't going to happen. Not in most operations. Even at 20 traits, as has also been suggested, the amount of work involved limits what can be done. And as SK says, how many traits are connected to others...like spring population, brood quantity, and honey production?

I don't keep track of much, only the things that matter to me in my operation, and only traits that I can measure in some way.

I keep bees in Vermont. What do you think is the mosdt important trait I want in my bees. Wintering, yes? If the bees don't winter, there will be nothing to select from anyway. I use two lines on my yard sheet for the ability of a colony to winter properly.

1. Population in early spring. You know that day you open the inner cover for the first time? Brood rearing is just gettint underway. Not much flight yet...just some cleansing flights through the winter. Not enough flight to effect the population...colonies lose population with the beginning of spring foraging as the loss of old bees is greater than the replacement by emerging brood. How large is the cluster compared with what went into winter? A colony whose bees winter well will have the same cluster of bees at the beginning of spring flight as at the end of flight in the Fall. There won't be large amounts of dead bees on the bottom board or on the bround in front of the hive.
2. Population and Brood quantity at Dandelion bloom. If they dwindle for some reason in the spring, you'll know it at this time. I want a colony that doesn't lose its population when foraging gets underway in the spring and has at least 9 frames of brood at Dandelion bloom. I also look at brood pattern at this point. 

Honey production is measured by apiary and colonies that produce the most above the colony average are tagged as possible breeders. 
Total production is adjusted by amount of sugar required to support colony during the year.

Propensity to swarm ...possible breeders are eliminated if they start swarm preparations when other colonies in the yard, with similar populations and brood counts don't.

Disease resistance..colonies are eliminated if they show any brood disease. Since I see very little disease in my operation, Chalkbrood is a valuable tool in selecting for hygienic bees. At one time I had an operation that was full of Chalk. Now it's difficult to find.

Varroa...does the population explode during the summer and overwhelm the colony before the honey can be harvested and/or are there DWV bees emerging and leaving the hive? Or can it go through the season and into Fall before any treatment might be necessary. 

Temper...Under all conditions...temper can be broken down into three categories...read what Guzman says about temper. You're looking at not just how many stings you take when handling a colony. You're looking at the calmness/nervousness of the bees. 
1. Propensity to sting
2. Runniness on combs.
3. Flightiness...think head butt-ers

Longevity of queen, or stock. I never select a queen for breeding that hasn't gone through at least two seasons. If a colony sucessfully supercedes their queen...a queen that has proven herself over time...and that colony continues to be a top performer in every category..that colony is still a candidate. I don't try to maintain some pure representation of my stock. I accept supercedure by my bees and in fact think it a natural process the bees employ. 

Anyway, that's really just about it. I'm considering keeping track now of colonies that pack the broodnest so the colony becomes pollen bound. I'm trying to determing whether or not the trait is genetic or induced by some outside influence. Tarpy believes it's genetic. Hackenburg/Mendes believe it's caused by neonics. I haven't a clue.

Food for thought...

"Sometimes, breeder selection comes down to a gut feeling. You just have some feeling that the queen is special". Marla Spivak


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## Fusion_power

MP, I can answer that question. The tendency to hoard excessive amounts of pollen is genetic. It is also a trait that is highly linked to bees that winter well and build up explosively in the spring. It has two significant negatives. Bees that collect high amounts of pollen also tend to pack pollen into honey storage areas and they tend to swarm very early in spring. This doesn't matter much if you are doing extracted honey, but if you want comb or chunk honey it can be a bit disconcerting. When I've had bees that showed this trait, there were three linkages, 1 - Overwintering with relatively small colonies on a huge reserve of honey and pollen, 2 - Tendency to build up explosively in spring, 3 - Tendency to pack cells of pollen randomly in honey storage areas with more pollen cells close to the brood nest. You can use the last trait alone to select for these bees. Just mark your supers with source colony and location of the super relative to brood nest, then, as you extract, keep an eye out for random pollen cells. I might add that this trait does NOT exist in any Italian strain I've ever tried.


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## deknow

Dar, I'm certain that Michael is aware of genetic source of excessive pollen hoarding...the question is if it is the cause of the excessive hoarding he is seeing.

One possibility (and I've shared this with Michael in the past) is that fungicides will reduce the water soluble protein in the pollen (by preventing fungal fermentation). Sharing of protein around the hive is part of the feedback mechanism used to determine how much pollen to collect, and if the protein is lacking, they may well be cued to collect more, and more, and more....

deknow


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## Michael Palmer

Dar, I'm not really seeing it in the spring, and it's not pollen being packed in the honey combs I'm concerned with. This pollen "hoarding" if you will, is happening later in the season. When for whatever reason a queen slows down, the colony packs the entire broodnest with pollen. So much pollen in the broodnest that there are no empty cells for the queen to lay. You have a longer build-up season so maybe you see it differently than I.


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## wildbranch2007

Michael Palmer said:


> I'm considering keeping track now of colonies that pack the broodnest so the colony becomes pollen bound. I'm trying to determing whether or not the trait is genetic or induced by some outside influence. Tarpy believes it's genetic. Hackenburg/Mendes believe it's caused by neonics. I haven't a clue.


I'm thinking genetic as I first noticed it when I went to 3 deeps and neonics weren't on the market yet and I find it to bee less of a problem now as I never breed from any that did it.


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## Fusion_power

I've seen such packing of the broodnest with pollen in late summer and early fall. This was always with bees derived from Apis Mellifera Mellifera genetics. These bees will attempt to move the broodnest down into empty comb if any is available while cramming the existing broodnest so full of pollen that there is no room for anything else. You can cross check to see if I am correct that we are talking about the same issue by verifying whether or not these colonies overwinter with few losses and if they tend to be very early to develop swarm cells. Also from the description, these bees are not very well adapted to your climate.


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## Specialkayme

Michael Palmer said:


> I don't keep track of much, only the things that matter to me in my operation, and only traits that I can measure in some way.
> 
> I use two lines on my yard sheet for the ability of a colony to winter properly.
> 
> 1. Population in early spring.
> 2. Population and Brood quantity at Dandelion bloom.


You make alot of sense as far as simplifying things substantially, Michael, but I'm still a little confused . . . You mention you only look for two things, population in early spring, and population and brood quantity at dandelion bloom. But then you go on to list a number of other things:



Michael Palmer said:


> Propensity to swarm ...
> Disease resistance..
> Varroa...
> Temper...
> Longevity of queen, or stock.


So, you only track two things, but you will eliminate breeding stock based on five additional criteria? So, you will eliminate a colony as a potential breeder if varoa is too high, but you don't measure it? What is "too high"?



Michael Palmer said:


> ...read what Guzman says about temper.


I'm not familiar with that writing, can you clarify where it is found?

But generally, your process makes sense for an individual that is bent on honey production. The same would make sense for someone who is a comb producer, or a pollen producer. If the hives affect your bottom dollar, breed the ones that have the best impact on that bottom dollar and forget about the other traits.

But for the small time breeder or hobby beekeeper, the goals are alittle bit different. We can spend the time breeding for varroa resistance, disease resistance, or something else that will affect our ability to calmly, and satisfactorily keep bees. We have no bottom dollar (and usually, any dollars, lol) to affect. So in a sense, I can't remove hives that have the highest varroa count only. The queen may possess VSH genetics, and her drones will as well, while the workers do not. This may require more record keeping. Or, if I'm trying to breed the bee that lays the most, I can't just measure twice a year the size of the brood, as brood size will vary and I need a better understanding of when the queen starts to slow down. Or do you disagree with my assessment?



Michael Palmer said:


> Food for thought...
> 
> "Sometimes, breeder selection comes down to a gut feeling. You just have some feeling that the queen is special". Marla Spivak


An interesting, and good quote. I find it of particular interest that it comes from someone who selected for such a very specific gene. I'm uncertain what context she made this quote, but my guess is it wasn't in reference to how she came up with the MH line.


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## Michael Palmer

Sorry, bad wording. I meant to say I use 2 fields on my yard sheet to measure wintering. I also have other fields that I also listed.

I keep track of how my bees winter. spring population and amount of brood at dandelion are the two fields I use. If a colony doesn't winter properly, it is eliminated from the program. those still in the selection process are further selected using the fields I mentioned. 

I consider a mite count too high when I see dwv bees crawling around on the ground and the brood looks unhealthy. Colonies that can go through the honey producing season with no obvious varroa/virus issues remain in the pool.

_Elemental genetics and breeding for the honeybee_ Ernesto Guzman-Novoa, Pub. Ontario Beekeepers Association, ISBN:978-0-9782166-1-0

I agree with your assessment. But it's not just about honey production. It's more about total performance. The top producers in an apiary can be eliminated due to other factors. Honey production is only one way to measure performance. It's also a way to measure performance in other areas..like wintering and brood rearing. I didn't mean to say that I only measure strength in the spring. We look at the bees all summer long, note production and relative strength. It's only colonies remaining in the pool of possible breeders that I keep closer track of. I let the rest make honey, do my re-queening, raise queens and nucs. Not a lot of time to spend on each colony. I also don't eliminate a colony from the apiary because their queen isn't breeder quality. Who am I to say which genes get eliminated, and by eliminating something I think I don't want in my bees, what am I eliminating that should remain?

Marla was in Vermont last summer and we had a nice meeting at Mare's house over pizza and beer with our VBA queen rearing group. We were talking selection of stock and what traits can be selected for. She was just trying to say that with all the record keeping, analyzing, yard sheets, etc, sometimes it comes down to a gut feeling you have. 

Kinda like love, eh Special-K?


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## heaflaw

This is a great thread. More the art if beekeeping than the science. Please keep going.


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## Specialkayme

Michael Palmer said:


> I consider a mite count too high when I see dwv bees crawling around on the ground and the brood looks unhealthy. Colonies that can go through the honey producing season with no obvious varroa/virus issues remain in the pool.


I'm assuming that you are referring in large part to the presence of DWV, correct? Or are you also looking at other factors?

Usually the presence of DWV is the indicator I use that mites may be high. But in a recent post by Mr. Bush (can't remember where it was) he said the occasional DWV bee isn't that big of a deal, and that DWV was around before mites. Thoughts on that?


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## Specialkayme

Michael Palmer said:


> _Elemental genetics and breeding for the honeybee_ Ernesto Guzman-Novoa, Pub. Ontario Beekeepers Association, ISBN:978-0-9782166-1-0


Very interesting. I haven't heard of the book before, and a search on Amazon, Abebooks.com, Half.com, and Google Books didn't reveal anything. You wouldn't know a direction to look that I haven't already, would you?


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## Specialkayme

Michael Palmer said:


> I didn't mean to say that I only measure strength in the spring. We look at the bees all summer long, note production and relative strength. It's only colonies remaining in the pool of possible breeders that I keep closer track of.


So, you MEASURE strength twice a year, but you OBSERVE strength throughout the season, is that accurate?

So, how do you OBSERVE something like queen laying ability, hive population, or gentleness, objectively throughout the summer, without actually writing it down and without doing it based on objective standards? Or yet again, am I making it too complicated.


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## Specialkayme

Michael Palmer said:


> I also don't eliminate a colony from the apiary because their queen isn't breeder quality. Who am I to say which genes get eliminated, and by eliminating something I think I don't want in my bees, what am I eliminating that should remain?


But by doing that, aren't you prolonging the possibility of changing your outcome? If you have hive A and hive B. Hive A is a great producer, and you determine it's breeder quality. Hive B is decent. Not breeder quality, nothing special, but not necessarily something that needs to be requeened right away.

In a sense, if you don't requeen her, hive B will spread mediocre drones into DCAs. Your hive A grafted virgins, when they go on mating flights, will be mating (at least in part) with drones from hive B. This would drag down the overall productive nature of your hives, and defeat the point of selecting a certain breeder.

Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying. Do you breed from the best, keep the mediocre, and scrap the un-performers?


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## Specialkayme

Michael Palmer said:


> She was just trying to say that with all the record keeping, analyzing, yard sheets, etc, sometimes it comes down to a gut feeling you have.
> 
> Kinda like love, eh Special-K?


And that led me astray a few times in high school . . . and college . . . although it eventually got me in the right place, lol.

I see the point, and I appreciate the mentality behind it. Not being there, and not talking to her directly I can't know for certain, but based on what you said the key was SOMETIMES it comes down to a gut feeling. I'd agree with that, but I'm reluctant to rely SOLELY on a gut feeling. I would much rather have a record system kept on a series of hives, in which I've narrowed it down significantly based on objective and measurable standards. From there, if I need further elimination, and I don't have an objective standard to go by because they all appear equally viable, I don't have a problem going on a gut feeling. I just don't want to start off that way.

But, at least at the moment, I don't have a record keeping system, and I don't have ANY objective standards to compare one hive with another. So until I get that in place, looks like I really am just relying on gut feelings, lol.


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## Oldtimer

Specialkayme said:


> Usually the presence of DWV is the indicator I use that mites may be high. But in a recent post by Mr. Bush (can't remember where it was) he said the occasional DWV bee isn't that big of a deal, and that DWV was around before mites. Thoughts on that?


That's a vexed question. Because sometimes, when you see a bee with DWV in a hive, it won't be long till there's more, and eventually a major mite problem.

However DWV is a bee disease that's been with bees probably for thousands of years. Before we had mites I would VERY occasionally see a bee with it. In those days nobody gave it a second thought it would be one bee out of hundreds of hives, and was of no consequence.

Now that mites spread it, it's an excellent indicator of mites, if there's a lot of DWV you have a lot of mites.

But in my own hives, I've some times seen one bee with DVW, start to worry, but then the hive will go 6 months with no more DWV, that I saw. I put that down, to there being a low level of mites in all colonies, so there may be an occassional bee with DWV even with mites at low levels.


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## Michael Palmer

Specialkayme said:


> But in a recent post by Mr. Bush (can't remember where it was) he said the occasional DWV bee isn't that big of a deal, and that DWV was around before mites. Thoughts on that?


I agree. An occasional dwv bees is no big deal. It's when it gets out of control and there are numerous crawlers on the ground.


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## Michael Palmer

Specialkayme said:


> Very interesting. I haven't heard of the book before, and a search on Amazon, Abebooks.com, Half.com, and Google Books didn't reveal anything. You wouldn't know a direction to look that I haven't already, would you?


The Ontario Beekeepers Association


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## Specialkayme

Been to their website . . . still can't find it . . .


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## Michael Palmer

Specialkayme said:


> So, you MEASURE strength twice a year, but you OBSERVE strength throughout the season, is that accurate?
> 
> So, how do you OBSERVE something like queen laying ability, hive population, or gentleness, objectively throughout the summer, without actually writing it down and without doing it based on objective standards? Or yet again, am I making it too complicated.



Accurate enough for my needs. Nothing is perfect.

Laying ability...number of frames of brood and pattern
Hive population...frames or boxes of bees. When cold, is the cluster at the top of the hive. Bend down, blow in bottom entrance. Is the cluster right there? Did they sting your nose? That's the cluster I look for in the Fall and Spring. Or...in the fall after clustering...kick the hive...do they come out the top and bottom and every hole??
Temper? Don't you knpow which colony stings you the most every time you open it? Can't you see nervous bees running in wild circles on the comb and maybe dripping off the frames? Don't you know which colonies head butt you and which don't?

As Marla, it isn't always emperical. For instance, I don't judge temper with a number..1-5 say. If they're ever mean..not just a sting or two but repeated stings...they get a red X. Viscious they get two. A red x eliminates them from the pool.
But things like population can get a number, and frames of brood, and brood pattern. Disease - Chalkbrood eliminates a colony...no need for a number.

It really is rather easy to find candidates without getting too fancy.


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## Michael Palmer

Specialkayme said:


> But by doing that, aren't you prolonging the possibility of changing your outcome? If you have hive A and hive B. Hive A is a great producer, and you determine it's breeder quality. Hive B is decent. Not breeder quality, nothing special, but not necessarily something that needs to be requeened right away.
> 
> In a sense, if you don't requeen her, hive B will spread mediocre drones into DCAs. Your hive A grafted virgins, when they go on mating flights, will be mating (at least in part) with drones from hive B. This would drag down the overall productive nature of your hives, and defeat the point of selecting a certain breeder.
> 
> Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying. Do you breed from the best, keep the mediocre, and scrap the un-performers?


Understand I have 35 yards in two stated. My mating yard is located in the middle of four of them. At least 30 yards are out of flying range. I do stock those four yards with the best I can find. If the yard average is 100 and a number of the colonies in a yard make 75 but are healthy and winter well, then I leave them. I certainly wouldn't requeen the whold yard with daughters of one breeder. There's more than honey production involved.


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## Michael Palmer

Specialkayme said:


> Been to their website . . . still can't find it . . .


You need to contact someone there, or at U of Guelph, or the Ontario Tech Transfer Team. I bought it from them at a bee meeting.


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## kilocharlie

Fusion Power, rrussell6870, or anybody -
Could anyone direct me to a source of standard or generally-accepted test procedures for measuring the quantitative (and qualitative) traits that we're talking about tracking? My yard sheets are continually expanding in scope, but I would like to know if my criteria are "apples plus apples" or "apples plus oranges" with other breeders' data.


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