# apis cerana japonica Swarm Split with apis mellifera western queen cells



## Closet Beekeeper Japan

Why would ANYONE want to split a healthy swarm?! It's madness! IMO it should never be done, but I have a dilemma... I have a dying colony I call Kawa Bees, apis mellifera western bees, with 4 queen cells and a very healthy Japanese bee swarm of apis cerana japonica, a subspecies of honeybee native ONLY to Japan. I call these the Okera Bees. I want to try to save one of the Kawa queens and create a hybrid bee that is resistant to mites and a good honey producer... so I am splitting the Okera hive and adding a frame with the 2 queen cells to the split without the Okera queen. Here is the video 




Here is the video of the Kawa Bees http://youtu.be/lseLhyyf5gI


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## Keth Comollo

Once the mellifera hatches won't she tend to mate with mellifera? How are you getting your hybrid?? Perhaps I missed something.


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## greg zechman

keth...what do you expect from someone who drives from the wrong side of the car....LOL


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## StewRoten

I can't imagine that there could be any true hybridization -- mixing of genes. Still, it would be interesting to see how a blended hive would organize itself. I'd love to look in on an inspection.


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## KQ6AR

As Keth mentioned, you won't get a hybrid unless the newly hatched queen mated with drones from the other species. I'm not sure that's even possible, or the bees in you're region would already be all hybrids.


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## JRG13

Can they even hyrbidize is the question? Wouldn't it have been done already?


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## JohnBeeMan

Are if they did breed you may end up with mules.


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## SPRUCE BEE

JohnBeeMan said:


> Are if they did breed you may end up with mules.


Or a Jack (Bee) Ass :lpf:


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## Closet Beekeeper Japan

StewRoten said:


> I can't imagine that there could be any true hybridization -- mixing of genes. Still, it would be interesting to see how a blended hive would organize itself. I'd love to look in on an inspection.


You can. I have a Ipad hook up and you can come along via a skype:foundup for video call. I'm not sure if she will actually mate... but if the virgin in in a hive of a.cerana drones... she MAY think that is the drones to mate with. A previous western queen already mated once with Sumo drone and now I know why she came back missing a fore leg and with a drone penis still in her... Japanese a cerana drones are massive possibly one of the biggest drones out there. They are so big because they play the role of a limbacker and are changed with holding down the massive Japanese Hornet so the rest of the bees can get around it to cook it. 

Update the a. cerana bees ripped out one off the Western Queen cells and I had to innovate what I am calling a "Frame Cage" http://j.mp/frameCage
Here is a video


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## Closet Beekeeper Japan

A.cerana are mite free not mite resistant. I have combed through their litter to find none. There is no documentation I can find with trying to combine the cerana and mel bees together... I am doing it because I think if I am successful the Okera Bee could be a way to eliminate the mite issue facing bees worldwide... the real issue isn't mites though but pesticides... CCD is happening in Japan and it has NOTHING to do with mites but rather bees bringing a contaminated water source back to the hive. Mites is just a symptom not the cause of CCD... pesticides is the only cause.


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## Closet Beekeeper Japan

I am guessing that over 99% of the bees in Japan are gone due to the simple fact that Japan is the #1 user of systemic pesticides worldwide. Japanese bees are very rare and I spent the entire spring and summer seeking them and found none... beekeeping in Japan is a hobby actively and most beekeepers are purist...


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## AmericasBeekeeper

You would be the first. 
"There have been no examples of successful hybrid production
by natural matings in Japan, where both species exist, in spite of some successful
examples (HACHINOHE personal communication, 1985) by instrumental insemination. 
Attempts to make hybrid are difficult from the karyo-morphological view point."
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/revistaselectronicas/apidologie/17-2/03.pdf


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## AmericasBeekeeper

I just noticed cerana drones are diploid. Diploid males are cannibalized in meliffera or do not survive due to numerous genetic defects..
Title: The diploid drone of Apis cerana japonica and its chromosomes. 
Author(s): Hoshiba, H. 
Okada, I. 
Kusanagi, A. 
Found In: Journal of apicultural research. J Apic Res 1981. v. 20 (3) 
p. 143-147.


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## AmericasBeekeeper

There are a couple problems with the plan.
Queens do not mate with drones from the same hive, prevents incest and genetic depression.
Varroa mites prefer the soft interstitial plates of the underside of the abdomen. You would have to roll every bee over to see if they are mite free.
The greatest challenge to open mating the two is the naturally different DCA and mating patterns.
Apis cerana japonica drones aggregate at landmark mating areas of prominent trees like Zelkova serrata, congregate at tree-top level, and mate at 5 to 50 meters above the trees. Mating times were between 1300 and 1730.
Drone congregation of Apis cerana japonica
(Radoszkowski, 1877) above large trees
S Fujiwara H Miura T Kumagai T Sawaguchi
S Naya T Goto H Asanuma K Suzuki
1 Office of the Society of Japanese Honeybee, Wakazono-chyo 3-10, Morioka 020;
2 Laboratory of Applied Entomology, Faculty of Agriculture, Iwate University, Morioka 020, Japan
(Received 15 May 1992; accepted 21 December 1993)
If nature gave them vastly divergent mating habits, and there is a higher incidence of diploid males, I really do not understand why it would be possible or desirable genetically.


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## AmericasBeekeeper

i received a little more information from Dr. Nikolaus Koeniger. "Hybrids between A.cerana and A. mellifera do not occur. Experimentally – by instrumental insemination- it was demonstrated that the hybrid embryo dies early during its development. In Japan A.cerana drones seem to fly later than A.m. drones. Further there seems to be a difference in mating places. A.m mates in the open air (drone congregation areas) while A.c drones gather above the top of high trees. For more information “Honeybees of Asia” by Hepburn & Radloff (editors.) ISBN 978-642-16421-7, Springer, Berlin Heidelberg 2011 (p. 159-206)."


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## WI-beek

It would probably only create more problems than it would solve. Infectious diseases would then cross that a.m. has no resistance to and so forth. The best thing you can do is try to save your bee and get as many others to do so as possible. If they are as hard to find as you say then they likely are inbred or cant mate at all. You and others need to provide genetic rich pools for successful mating to save the bee.


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## Closet Beekeeper Japan

Very interesting. Thanks. 

"There have been no examples of successful hybrid production by natural matings in Japan, where both species exist, in spite of some successful examples , ACHINOHE (Hpersonal communication 1985) by instrumental insemination and by natural mating (VATS, 1953). Attempts to make hybrid are difficult from the karyo-morphological view point."



AmericasBeekeeper said:


> You would be the first.
> "There have been no examples of successful hybrid production
> by natural matings in Japan, where both species exist, in spite of some successful
> examples (HACHINOHE personal communication, 1985) by instrumental insemination.
> Attempts to make hybrid are difficult from the karyo-morphological view point."
> http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/revistaselectronicas/apidologie/17-2/03.pdf


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## moonshade0227

There's a study shows mating is possible but hybrid eggs do not hatch. 

"A DNA test shows that interspecific matings occur in Cairns
Researchers developed DNA tests to determine if they could find A. cerana sperm in the spermathecae of A. mellifera queens and A. mellifera sperm in the spermathecae A. cerana queens. Researchers tested 12 A. mellifera queens from Cairns and four had mated with one or more A. cerana males. Researchers tested 22 A. cerana queens, but none had mated with A. mellifera drones. No evidence of hybrid eggs
Researchers tested 213 eggs from three naturally-mated queens mated in the Cairns area with their DNA test. The three queens all had A. cerana sperm in their spermatheca. Researchers did not detect any hybrid eggs. Therefore the reseachers assume that hybrid eggs do not hatch and are removed by nurse workers."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...jONs1Q32JiOHSPydQ&sig2=KPnAFLWAaPwcRW5A6IWydA


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