# What to do? Lots of bees, lots of drones, no queen, no brood?!



## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

You can read the full details of the cut out here:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...(tree)-should-be-simple&p=1077066#post1077066

But the skinny of the deal is the hive seemed to be a massive feral hive that was on its way out.

Comb was useless and riddled with hive beetles, no brood to save and a HEAVY mix of drones.

Vacuumed most of them up and now the are trapped in three 8 frame mediums (foundationless) and are being fed 2:1 syrup.

Vac'd and put in place last night, screen still on openings... Supposed to rain today, guess I need to open that entrance and let them go about doing what they are gonna do right?

Any suggestions? Sorry for the essential double post, just figured lots may not read through the old trap out thread vs this new more to the point post.

Advice please!
Gilligan


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

60 degrees breezy and 30% chance of rain all day (temps dropping all day long).

I opened the screen about an hour ago... they immediately started coming out and orientating.

Now I went look and they appear to be bearding... they have the 2.5" hole stuffed with bees just all clustering around it.










Sorry, I think the photo is upside down.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Try to get them a queen from someone, or put a frame of open brood and eggs in there and they will make a queen. At least you have a lot of bees, that's a great start.


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## TxGypsy (Mar 17, 2012)

I agree. See if you can locate them some brood, a queen or even a queen cell.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

rkereid said:


> Try to get them a queen from someone, or put a frame of open brood and eggs in there and they will make a queen. At least you have a lot of bees, that's a great start.


I sent out an SOS to the club I'm a part of via email list... but I'm not sure how "progressive" they are in their understanding of modern bee keeping. I also simply asked for possibly an unwanted queen cell that someone might be destroying anyway.

I'm still puzzled by this bearding as it's 60 degrees and dropping, no way it's too hot in there right?

I have my plywood cover from my vac that has two holes in it, one I put the feeder over the other is screened (a little over 2" hole), which then has a medium on it and the inner cover (which didn't have a notch in it) and I put some large shims to keep a decent gap for ventilation through it.

I'd like to put a screened bottom (which I have)... but I'm not really looking forward to disturbing that colony after yesterdays trauma.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

It was best to start a new thread. I will chase you over here to add info. There was drone brood or just drone comb? Smaller hives will take a new queen better. Split at least one box off to try any introduction and I would use an excluder to separate the bees for that split. You may have a drone queen or laying workers in there. Maybe someone has a weak hive that you could share and then divide later. Maybe you are already in your spring? 
If they are really stuffed that could be why the bearding.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Yeah I have NO idea how many bees I have in there.

We are definitely in spring, they had pollen and nectar the hive.

Oh, to answer your first question, lots of drone brood, capped and uncapped.

Not following the queen excluder part.. but when the time comes I'll split them apart.

I just hope they make some wax, that's half the reason for feeding.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

If you use an excluder on top of the hive and put another body on that the drones and any queen will not make it to the clean hive. Laying workers will though. Just workers will be in that clean hive because they will go to the feeder.
If the drones are from LW they are not even good as drones, just useless mouths to feed and I would not hesitate to off them after you separate them. If no excluder they will die off anyway.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Ok I'm following that.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

So someone in my club has come to my rescue.

Now it's a new dilemma, he thinks he should give me two frames and just make me a split. He said he would give the frame to stick in my current situation but hates to see a frame go to waste if this colony is a bust.

What are you guys' thoughts?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I agree with him. If they are LW that is a hard cure. Get a functioning queen and hive first and add on to that.
Search for LW posts here for a multiple view of solutions. Dumping them and letting them join other hives is not an option unless someone else works with you or you get a nuc. Someone with nucs who needs bees to expand and would split with you later would work.
You will know in a few days if you have laying workers. If they make comb they will lay in it quickly, multiple eggs is LW. It is not impossible that you have a functioning queen and the removal hid that. Swarm prep with all those bees is possible, queen cells in crushed comb/ drone comb/ sawdust is easy to miss.
.
I would go for a small nuc to start QCs and then adding in your bees slowly as an overall plan.
If you could get a laying queen and brood going above a screen you could suppress the LW and combine. Then use the lbs to make new splits.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

I have read about laying workers (I love research when one can't do or just before one does). They are the one problem I dread the most it think... Seem like no fun to sort out.

Just devil's advocate, IF the colony had a LW, isn't likely that I didn't get her since I left thousands of bees behind? Other thoughts are, we found no eggs or young larva. I am wondering if it wasn't a failing queen situation, they superseded and she failed to get mated or was eaten. Could that explain the building of so much drone comb and the failing queen may have only been laying drones at the end? I'm totally guessing though.

I will likely do as you suggest though. 

My game plan right now is, see what is happening. They were taking syrup well today and it started to rain at about 8pm so I put on my red led headlamp and went check things out. I've been a bit nervous to get too close (no protection), and looked in the hole. Some debris and dead bees, clustering on bottom of frames (I'm three mediums tall right now). Handful of dead bees about the immediate 2' of the entrance... I'm guessing the house keeping bees are trying to do what they can but everyone is so jammed up in that entrance that they can't get it all done easily.

Soon as it warms up, I'll set up a real bottom board (screened) which should help the congestion.

Then start checking frames for comb and see if we have any eggs/LW. Not really looking forward to rocking and rolling with a large queenless hive. In the process I will see how many bees I have and implement the queen excluder system that you recommended. Should I put any frames of drawn comb into the higher box and maybe shake them off if it seems drone heavy before moving them up?

Oh, and then assuming they are not looking like a major bust, I will do a queenless split as discussed and maybe grab a queen cell, assuming there are plenty made and toss it in the feral hive and see ifi can't get them going that way.

What do you think?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Only a couple of comments; it is called laying worker, but it is workers. 5% to 20 % is what I recall reading. It is brood that suppresses LWs, that is why a smaller hive works best, it does not get thinned out by as many bees. It is generally 3 weeks of a new brood frame every week before QCs started. Ideally if someone had extra virgin cells you could split into 3 hives now and have 3 chances. A piece of ply and sticks makes a temp bottom and ply works as a cover as is.

It is easy to miss what is really going on in a hive with removable frames, yours was being ripped apart by an excavator.

Definitely split to a smaller hive before trying any kind of introduction, it just has better chances of success.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Ok cool.

I have 10 medium boxes (4 assembled), I'll be ordering more, but they were severely back ordered last time (budget boxes) and I think Mann just made me happy/right and sent me whatever they had as they were flawless.

I only ordered one top and bottom as I knew I could make those, just wanted to see first hand a telescopic and SBB w/ drawer.

So I can easily break this apart this week. Should I do this as soon as possible or wait I'll I have the cell/frame and do it all at once?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Two things working and they are not working together. 1 Hive will make more comb. When you split many bees will go back to the first location, the longer you wait to split the more will go back. Until they fly they do not orientate, so rain is good.
You can split 3 ways and leave none in the original location, some would move the main and put the new split in the original location but that gives you field bees who are harder to introduce to.
You can get really crude with temp gear. 3/4 scrap on ply makes a bottom,it can stick out but not in. Ply and nothing else makes a top.

Your post 12 is sound. Smoke them some(it does not take much) wait 5 and move smoothly and evenly. If you think you belong there the bees are more likely to believe it too.

I would probably choose to split off the top box before they fly much no matter what. 2nd choice 2 to 4 hours before introduction, if many bees leave, add more and use the screened bottom and close it up for 4 days. You do not know if they are all field bees or some young ones too.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

That could be an issue... if I don't really have any nurse bees around who will take care of the new eggs/larva?

It is looking like low 60's for the next few days, but sunny tomorrow. I'm guessing that is the day to do this... which means I have to assemble some boxes/boards/lids tonight! 60 Isn't too cold to do these splits is it?

One caveat, I don't have a lot of yard to work with. Everything is taking place in about an 8' area along the back of my shed. I could probably set up a temp one on the back of my house but the yard guy will be coming soon to mow (we have a very laxed relationship)... I'm sure that will not be a good location for them when he is mowing (maybe I should say, not a good location for HIM!)  Even then, that is only 10' from where they are now.

I'm on the back of a subdivision and don't really want to put them out front for everyone to see... I'm already suspecting neighborhood kids will be tempted to mess with them where they are and plan on putting up some security cameras as a deterrent and then proof if there is any vandalism/tom foolery.

Oh and I looked this morning and for a second I thought they were gone. 

At 9:30 am 53 degrees they were dead quite and clustered up high in the top box (out of 3). I took a pic with the flash on my phone and could see a bit of the empty frames in the second box so I'm assuming they are all hanging together in the top box tightly. They were on my screened hole pretty tight on the feeder board and they were very active in the feeder.

Surprisingly minimal dead bees on the floor from the vacuuming job, and few dead bees outside the hive (I don't think they were able to get much house keeping done because of the traffic at the entrance). I'd estimate maybe 50 bees easily visible so maybe double that for what I can't see on the ground or carried off further? Not bad as I thought the suction was a bit too strong and I'm certain I crushed some in the process of scraping the walls with the nozzle.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

OK, not a Texan, mine would fly in lower 40s so 60 is almost summer. Probably feed more than cold has them bunched. If they are in one hive you are probably not overcrowded so split is not as urgent. If you split you can have them side by side, reversing will cut down on the drift of bees that have not oriented yet. 

When you are not jar feeding you can use a bottom as a top and stack vertically. Michael Bush used to have a photo of that on his site. Pain to handle though not bad with a couple. Check out pallets of bees, as long as they are similar sized it works.

How are they when you feed them? Fly at you or pretty calm?

They can take care of brood and raise queens even if older, not a problem.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

I've only ventured about 10' to the hive from the front and a bit from the side (how I got the bearding pic) so far. No real issues.

I haven't been in any gear so I've been wary and the sound is intimidating right now. 

Just got a call about a swarm that is FIVE minutes from me! I'm ON IT!!!


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Well, swarm capture was successful!

Pretty certain we got the queen by the way they were acting and clustering.

I let my buddy take that one home since I'm not really setup, got enough to deal with and he helped on the tree removal with no reward.

Again, NOT as easy as they make it seem on tv (YouTube). I go in there thinking I'm Billy Badass with no gloves and start trying to rake them in off the tree trunk... POP! On the finger, had the brush in my back pocket, switch it it and POP! On the wrist! Grrr, throw the brush down in frustration and retreat to the gloves. 

Granted the way they were hugging the trunk of the tree in the middle of the branches I thought we should have vacuumed them from the get go.

We actually got the queen with the scooping and half the bees, then vacuumed the rest after that.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Oh, and to get the beevac all together again, I needed the bottom and top.

That went surprisingly smooth, pulled the bottom board and a few bees went airborne, put new bottom board down. Then pulled the feeder and top off and they remained calm, could see some comb, but we didn't mess with them as we were focused getting the vac parts and getting that swarm.

BUT, I'm super confident in going in there and messing around with them tomorrow!


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

That swarm has a laying queen or a virgin, either is weeks ahead of your hive. If your hive does not start to show a laying queen soon(Remember yours may have had a virgin also) think about combining the swarm with some of your bees. Split the large hive after it is rolling along.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Saltybee said:


> That swarm has a laying queen or a virgin, either is weeks ahead of your hive. If your hive does not start to show a laying queen soon(Remember yours may have had a virgin also) think about combining the swarm with some of your bees. Split the large hive after it is rolling along.


I'm going in the hive today around lunch or just after. I'll see what we have going on then and be able to make some decisions from there I guess.

I'm hoping for a clean looking hive with no LW and no signs of disease/pest/retardation  If I have that then I feel better about trying to intro a frame of brood and I can get that done as soon as things warm up a bit. If by some amazing chance I have a queen in there then I might faint with excitement given the odds.

Speaking of... I was reading up on inspections and disease last night again (brushing up) and one of the things that hive beetles do is eat eggs... could it be possible that the hive beetles were so bad that they had eaten ALL the eggs leaving it looking like they were queenless? When we pulled out comb from the center of the nest it would be covered, like 30-50 beetles running around each side. Possibly more, I just hate over exaggerations.  On second thought, after a quick google image search, I never really saw hive beetle larva like I see in those pics. I'd remember, that's disgusting!


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I do not see enough beetles to know. You are making fast progress in the experience department.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

1st Inspection under my belt!!

Thanks to all the resources here, youtube, books, and especially Michael Bush's website... I was in and out and had some feeling of knowing what I'm doing.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BwdPJ7c6eSh6eGZ5MHYxYXpjV1E&usp=sharing (trying google drive in my attempt to boycott dropbox)

I THINK I had eggs!! Looked like I saw a few, but as you can see the comb was crowded and blowing on them only moved them so much. I had two, maybe three frames with that much comb and one had double comb coming on it, that is the one that I rubber band in and just removed the small piece. The other wasn't coming in right either and was too small to mess with so I just removed it, it had a bit of pollen and nectar (sugar water) in it.

Still lots of bees and kind of intimidating, I went in with no gloves as most books/sites/vids suggest. No stings! Only a few squished bees (hopefully not the queen if she was in there!)

Still didn't do the queen excluder trick, A: wasn't enough time, I was in there almost 30 mins as it was. B: I might have a queen!

If I have a queen, will the drone over population situation sort itself out?

I didn't get into the second box, again, no time. Next inspection (this weekend) might start out there.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Looking good. I do not see an overabundance of drones in those photos. yes that will take care of itself anyway.
New white comb always gets me.
When they are first drawing comb you can often see the eggs on the unfinished short comb. It is hard for me to see eggs on white, hard to tell if you are seeing eggs or refracted light. Next trip in you may see larva. 
A feather works as a bee brush and the price is right.
The excluder trick does not look to be needed from those pictures. When you start getting around half drones and small drones, worry.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

That's a queen right colony, a week old cutout wouldn't festoon and get to work like that if they were queenless. The amount of drones you are seeing is just because it's spring in your neck of the woods. Saltybee's advice to add a frame of brood a week is still good though just as insurance. 

You need to go buy a lottery ticket.


Don


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

D Semple said:


> You need to go buy a lottery ticket.


I certainly feel that way!!

My buddy came by today and I was showing him pics and discussions we've been having.

Best we can figure is that with all the beating up of the tree she ran up in the crevices in the back. Then when vacuuming them up I would find pockets with bees all balled and clustered together where we couldn't see. We must have gotten lucky and got her.

Now, why was that colony in such disarray as we found it, who knows.

I'll be going back in this weekend weather permitting and I should see larvae if I have eggs now.

Any way to tell or can you guys see from the pics, if I should shrink the hive down (I'm at 3 medium 8's now).


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

The top box density looks normal for frames not drawn yet. More guessing than saying the bottom box is near empty and the 2nd is about half or less than the top. If so the bottom should go and keep the entrance small as the 2nd is probably more space than needed though the single is probably not enough. If the brood supplier is available or another club member is, experienced eyes on the actual hive is going to beat long distance photo viewing.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Ok... just went through top box... pretty sure I have some healthy eggs... didn't notice larva, but I could be not seeing it in the royal jelly next to all the syrup storage.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BwdPJ7c6eSh6eXE5YkhMa2hXOTg&usp=sharing

The vid is pretty lame... camera sitting on a ledge looking at my shoulder most of the time, the wife starts to hand hold about 3/4 of the way through... still nothing amazing to see. I dropped down to just 2 boxes. Though every frame on the top box has some comb now it's still probably about half drawn.

They are working hard... I posted in the "should I feed" thread about continuing to feed as they went through all of the that 3/4 gallon of 2:1 and they stored a lot of it it.

The two pics in there are close ups of the eggs that I am positive about. They look like they were laid by a queen, I never saw any eggs out of place and no double laying and certainly nothing having 3 or more eggs in it. Zoom in on 20140329_165914.jpg and look at the 2nd full looking cell above the two bees on the bottom of the frame (right side)... that is the best shot of the eggs I saw.


They wife really enjoyed herself and is very comfortable with the gloves and bee jacket on (her suit comes in this week). This was my first run with just a veil... not too bad, I am more at home in the jacket though. 

2nd box had one SMALL bit of comb being drawn on it, nothing of course in the bottom box... not even a lot of bees (about 4pm and over 70 degrees). Shook them out (about 40 bees on each frame at the bottom) and they went about their business. VERY gentle bees, none flew at my veil, but the wife said she had a few bouncing off hers (I wonder if she is over reacting)... I had one hit my sleeve pretty hard but it was when I stooped down and had my hand near the entrance, I think she just had a collision and it wasn't intentional.

The wife is already ready to go back in... she REALLY in interested in finding that queen.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Queen spotting votes wanted. Yea or nea.

Look at your 14 jpg, hard on the right 2nd bee up. Sure looks like your queen to me, a little hard to tell her size from the angle, she is going around the comb. You will get workers that are big, but they are not queen big.
Looks like eggs to me as well, though reflections through new comb can fool you, at least it does me, pollen looks good. Nicely centered on the bottom, I have had good queens consistently lay hard up against the side on the bottom. The young larva are probably under the nurse bees. 
You will not normally see eggs all by themselves and not normally outside the ring of pollen/nectar. Wonder if she was a virgin just about when you caught the hive.
The jelly is milky, nectar clear and wetter looking when new.
Half drawn at this point is good.
Still downloading movie.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Guess I should have put it on YouTube... Flip camera, assumed it would stream like my camera video... Woops, not really worth the download. Sorry.

I guess that is her... Just so close in color she didn't stand out.

The other pic is the same frame, just attempts to get a better pic off the eggs... I think that is the same bee half way around the comb.

Those "eggs" are not reflections, the had a third dimension to them.

Better to be lucky than good certainly surmises that cut out!!! Lol


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Sorry, but looking at those two pics, there are no eggs or a queen in them. All I see is nectar or sugar water and pollen in those cells. Eggs or larvae are obvious once you see them.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> Sorry, but looking at those two pics, there are no eggs or a queen in them. All I see is nectar or sugar water and pollen in those cells. Eggs or larvae are obvious once you see them.


Hey JRG,

What I'm seeing (with a VERY untrained eye) is this:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwdPJ7c6eSh6WUF4V0hiOS1Ub1E/edit?usp=sharing

Doesn't that look like eggs?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> Sorry, but looking at those two pics, there are no eggs or a queen in them. All I see is nectar or sugar water and pollen in those cells. Eggs or larvae are obvious once you see them.


Thanks for voting. 
What I was seeing as an egg is clearly not in the 3rd shot. The two circles are too out of focus for me to vote on. It can be reflection through the new comb.I hate photos. You will know when you see an egg, but you can think you see them when you do not. I would like a shot higher up on the frame, there should be a pattern of syrup and pollen around the laying, but it can get erratic on the new comb below the circle. Time will tell, and soon.

Still seeing queen in #2 and possibly in #1 covered over. I think angle is making her look shorter than she is.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Couldn't get the pic to load Gilligan, tried two separate browsers.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Fast forwarded through your tape. They do look like nice calm bees. Is that first frame the same one as photos? Are there other frames drawn out? If that is most drawn out frame she is just starting to lay.

Festooning like that on that many frames, they are queenright. Shocked if not.

That small section of comb on the side of one frame can be removed and pinched onto the guide.

Having fun is best part of the film.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

JRG13,
Google chrome is opening them for me.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

You know, what looking more closely, it looks like some eggs in there.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Things are looking better and better!!!

Inspection No. 3 under my belt.

This is 9 days after hiving the bees (I vacuumed them up on Saturday afternoon March 23rd)... seems they didn't waste any time as I've already got capped brood!

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BwdPJ7c6eSh6Njg4VUVXbXp0VU0&usp=sharing

There is a frame by frame pic (one side only) to show how much comb they have drawn, a folder of "interesting" things and a folder containing all the photos in full res jpgs. This is all from my DSLR, the wife taking photos and having more fun than anything.

Next time I will have her stand on the side with the sun behind her so she can get better pictures... I had no idea what kind of issues it was causing with lighting.

I have one photo in the interesting folder that I THOUGHT might have been the queen mid laying of an egg (this was post inspection of photos that I noticed) but after further review, I'm pretty sure it's not.

Still haven't spotted the queen, but I do have capped worker brood!


Oh and I put one frame of drawn comb/brood/pollen/nectar from the top to the bottom to hopefully get them being more productive underneath. Was this a good idea?


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

My buddy spotted her in the pics!!!









The bad thing is this is the frame I parked on my frame perch on the side of my hive as I spent the next 20-25 mins going through the rest of the hive. Gulp!

At least in a worse case scenario they can make a queen from the eggs! Lol


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Made my night.
Nice. Looking better every time. The queen has not gone far, no other hives to try, they do not move often anyway. 
How is the swarm coming? You can be each other's brood backup when she gets going.
Still got 10-11 days before brood starts hatching reinforcements.
They are drawing comb fast enough that she is not running out of room yet. I would have waited until brood started to hatch before putting brood down but I think cold more than you have to. Doubtful any problem. I often will drop an outside broodless frame down first to not stretch them out too thin. They will work the upper empty and leave the lower until they need it. Hard to resist getting comb drawn while they are drawing it.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Saltybee said:


> Made my night.
> Nice. Looking better every time. The queen has not gone far, no other hives to try, they do not move often anyway.
> How is the swarm coming? You can be each other's brood backup when she gets going.
> Still got 10-11 days before brood starts hatching reinforcements.
> They are drawing comb fast enough that she is not running out of room yet. I would have waited until brood started to hatch before putting brood down but I think cold more than you have to. Doubtful any problem. I often will drop an outside broodless frame down first to not stretch them out too thin. They will work the upper empty and leave the lower until they need it. Hard to resist getting comb drawn while they are drawing it.


Yeah, thanks for being there and for the moral support all this time.

I probably got a little anxious in moving that frame, but I went look at them tonight (was gonna run a camera in there to see how they were supporting that frame. They were stuffing the entire entrance so I couldn't even slide a camera in there. Low of 65 tonight, swinging up to 80 tomorrow at 4, hopefully they take care of it... Another lesson learned.

My buddy's swarm is taking off great, drawing comb and taking syrup at about a quart a day I think he said. His queen is laying nicely and he's anxious for another swarm. I just missed one the other day, didn't find out until it was gone.

I'm thinking if nothing else I should be able to split this hive once we get a steady stream of new bees coming as its healthy and tame, so hopefully she is a good breeder as well. I guess I'll see in a week or two!

I'm still super amazed that I vacuumed up the queen! To think I hobbled up that vac the night before and finished and tested it the morning of the removal.


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