# Hive 1: Queen-right to queen-less in less than a week!



## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Like I have said before, I am fairly new to this so I am not the best person to advise but I would cull out the smallest of the queen cells and leave a few of the best looking ones. The first one they made in my nuc was really puny so I culled it out. The second and third look much better so I left them (they are right next to each other so hard to cull one and not damage the other). The last looks the best but isn't capped yet so that one probably won't win in the deathmatch.

I opened the small cell that I culled and that queen was about drone size, definitely not a keeper. I have some queens on order for making splits so don't plan to keep whichever one suceeds but who knows, if she looks good and comes back I may just let it play out. Looks like our timing will be close. I am looking forward to reading how it turns out for you!


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi, Colleen,

I've also prefaced some posts with "I'm just starting out, but I've read a lot and this is what I've found."  Your suggestion is a good one. I'd been looking at that first capped supercedure cell and worrying that it would be first to emerge and not a good queen. We'll go ahead and cull it, at least. 

Thanks!
Tom


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>And apparently, we got the bee version of the finger for bothering them:

Actually that bee is nasonoving. Just letting her fellows know where everyone is since there was a disruption. She's not angry or warning you. If she was warning you, she would be buzzing in your face and maybe headbutting...

I would leave them alone. You should have a laying queen in about three weeks.


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Thanks, Michael, but I think my reason is funnier!  I did come across something somewhere that said it was a warning signal and at the time I didn't think it was right because I had a vague memory of it meaning something else. Comes from reading too many sources in a short period of time.

We'll monitor the hive and see how it goes. So you don't recommend culling the smaller cell, then?

Thanks,
Tom


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Naturally, Rhonda and I have been wondering why the bees would have superceded their queen. In reading a post in the Bee Forum asking if the lack of drone brood was normal in first year hives, I started thinking about the fact that we had noticed the lack of drone brood in Hive 1 whereas Hive 2 had what appeared to be a "normal" amount. I went back through the photos I had taken of the comb and am hard put to find any drone brood. I wonder if that was the reason or part of the reason she was superceded? No way of ever knowing, of course, but I thought it might be a possibility.

Regards,
Tom


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Last year my package hive and mid-summer nuc both had almost no drone brood. This years package has made a TON of drones. This year's package started on comb from last year and they got right to work adding drone comb to it. At first I figured it was because in their last home they were restricted on drawing brood comb due to foundation. I then decided while that may have played into it at first I think it is a sign of a healthy hive. Seeing this years hive booming shows me how weak last year's hives really were. This year they are healthy enough to have the luxury of putting up drones.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> So you don't recommend culling the smaller cell, then?

I wouldn't. The size of the cell really doesn't mean much. Neither does the size of the queen.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3398436/


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Heavy going but interesting reading, Michael--thanks!

We are going to just let them do their thing. They seem know what they're doing, anyway. 

In another twist in that hive, we've been dealing with carpenter ants getting into it. I managed to kill off (or mostly kill off) the two colonies in the trees on either side of the hive, but there still have been a small number of ants in the hive. I decided to try something I'd come across in one of the threads on carpenter ants and coat part of the legs with high-temp grease. When I went out there yesterday evening to do this, I opened up the hive where the ants had been and found there were still some ants... and a &*#$%$ American ****roach! With an egg sack hanging out her backside! I'd not seen them around before this. I got it out, and possibly a second one, and then coated the legs. This evening I went out and found three ants left in the hive, but that was all. 

We'll go do our weekly inspection of the hives on Saturday to see how they're doing. 

Cheers,
Tom

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

June 8, 2013

Looks like we may have a queen!

Well, we don’t know for sure but we do know that the bees are busy tearing down the old queen cells, at least most of them. There were still a few they’d not yet started taking apart when we took a look today. So, if we’re lucky we’ll have a laying queen in 10 or 12 days or so, depending on the various factors. 

I did see one bee that I thought might be a candidate for virgin queen because her coloration wasn’t like those around her and she’s a bit larger, but I wasn’t able to get a good photograph of her. Unfortunately, near her in the photograph I did see something disturbing: a bee with shriveled wings, apparently with deformed wing virus. When I looked it up I found that it is associated primarily with high Varroa mite populations, but can occur in colonies without Varroa mites. Since this is a new hive with fresh comb and I’ve not seen any mites (I take lots of photos of the bees and magnify them—haven’t seen a mite on a bee yet) I don’t think that’s the problem. This hive has had very few drone cells, as well. 

That’s a quick update. I may upload the photo with the shriveled wing bee tomorrow.

Cheers,
Tom


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## HappyBeeing (Apr 6, 2013)

Great news on the new queen Tango! After she finds the local drone congregation you may get true Survivor bees from the local genetics!!! :applause:

"It is written":lpf: .......... That all North American hives can be assumed to have mites,period. I had a mishap with a new/soft/bottom-heavy drone comb one month into my beekeeping and a chunk tore right off. That was the incident that made the one guard so mad at me and I was darn lucky it wasn't a dozen guards! Anyway,feeling awful but wanting to get some good out of my horrid bump-tear-and-fumble, I decided to freeze it and inspect it.(freezing was a mistake because I learned larvae turn to mush,sigh, but that day I couldn't stand inspecting live larvae I'd doomed). It was drone on both sides,about 200, and only a few worker cells. I found 3 mites from my very new clean package and one larvae was pink-eye mature and looked Very like a worker not a drone, with a mite too. It only takes one robber or curious infected bee at your door to drop a live mite that climbs right onto one of your bees and starts the whole infestation. I take pictures too and watch with my reading glasses close at the window for long periods once in awhile and I've never seen a mite either. So a month later I did a 48 hour mite drop paper under my screen and came up with a count of One. If one drops it means who-knows how many are Really in there. I was glad to know I'd have to decide on treatment by the Fall or not. Standard mite count to be concerned is 50 I think(not sure right this minute). I dunno,but IMHO I'd Never rule out mites,even if it seems like an isolated incident.
Anyhoo nice to hear of your happy update and it could work out for the betterment of you having a Much stronger hive to overwinter! If my bees swarm I'm going to look at it from a new genetics point of view too and not be sad. HB


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

You're messing with my denial here, HB!  I was under the impression that once you start seeing deformed wing virus it usually meant a badly infested hive and I don't think I have that. But what I will have due to the supercedure process is a break in the brood cycle, which should cause a break in the mite's lifecycle. 

I've bought the materials I need to build a bar-holding frame like f4mnect's so I can more easily use a magnifying glass when doing an inspection. Right now the way it has been working is that my wife has been handling the bars while I handle the camera. It is difficult to do an inspection when someone else is holding the bar of comb and turning it so _they_ can see better! I like to see things for myself, like most people, and in this case I've done a lot more reading and research into beekeeping than she has. I've been trying to make do by looking at the photos but it's hard to change your point of view when looking at a photo instead of adjusting your angle of view when looking at the real thing!

Cheers,
Tom


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## chr157y (Feb 14, 2013)

Have you tried rotating the bar yet?? I have had lots of success with rotating the bar upside down and just setting it back down on the hive. it frees up my hands to take pictures. Of course, I may not be as successful as the combs get heavier.

Good luck with the new queen! My bees started a supercedure just about a month ago and I finally have new capped brood! I'm so glad things are back on track.


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

I've rotated one bar, I think, but that's it. I wouldn't want to try it with the comb in Hive 2; those are massive! The bees there build them out wall-to-wall and bar-to-floor. I'd feel much better hanging them on a frame than trying to rotate them. 

Glad to hear your own supercedure has worked out well! I hope that ours follow suit.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Took a quick tour through the hive this evening. Found that all but one of the queen cells has for the most part been dismantled. The last one hasn't been touched yet. It's still closed. Doesn't mean the queen inside is still alive, I know. We've still got a while before we'll know if we have a queen or not.

Cheers,
Tom


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Don't disturb them until the queen starts laying, typically you want to stay out of the hive for 2 weeks after emergence of a virgin.


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Sounds like good advice, thanks! (But we may peek in the window before heading out on the bike to a rally at the Biltmore Estate next week.)


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Tango Yankee, have you spotted eggs yet from your new queen or are you still staying out of the hive?

I looked at my older nuc today and spotted some eggs at the bottom of cells and then the new queen. Yay! The eggs were leaning over so I guess that means they are a few days old but there weren't any larvae yet so she must have just started laying about two days ago. She is still fairly skinny too. I guess that changes as they get into their laying stride. I'm still staying out of the new nuc and the original hive.


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi, Colleen,

That's great news! 

I've not been back into my hive yet, but I think I'll be taking a look tomorrow if I can get to it in the morning before things heat up. I took a peek into the window today and saw... queen cells. That's one of those things that fall under the heading of "Things that make you go "Huh?"". So I think a closer look is warranted at this point. It started raining again at that point so I let it go for the day. I'll post tomorrow if I can get in and check it out.

Great news at your end... I'm very glad to hear it!

Cheers,
Tom


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Here is a pic of my new nuc queen









She is still pretty fleet on the comb so it was tough to get a nice shot of her.


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

She's beautiful, Colleen! Congratulations!

We took a quick walk through of the hive today because I saw what looked like capped queen cells through the window. Turned out they weren’t capped; it was just the angle at which I was viewing them. Turned out that there is virtually nothing left in the cells throughout the hive. No brood at all, of course. Almost all of the cells in the hive have been cleaned out. No capped honey, some uncapped nectar, some pollen, very little of both. No sign of a queen. I believe that I've seen posted around here that the bees will polish up the cells when they expect the queen to start laying, but in this case it looks like they not only polished up the cells but decided to start almost completely fresh!

We went through Hive 2 looking for young larvae and eggs. Saw the queen, found young larvae, but eggs eluded our eyesight. We decided to move one of the newer combs with young larvae and some capped brood to Hive 1 on the basis of it couldn’t hurt and if they don’t have a queen they may still be able to make one.

We’re heading out Wednesday and will be gone the rest of the week, so when we come back we hope to either see evidence of a laying queen or new supercedure cells.

Hive 2 was also fairly cleaned out of their capped honey, so we’re concerned there may not be enough of a nectar flow around here at the moment. We’re going to put feeders into both hives this evening after our syrup (left over from when we first got the bees) thaws out. And then we’ll see what happens when we get back.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I took a look through my other hive and nuc tonight. Saw the new nuc queen






but no evidence of eggs. She still looks fairly slender so she might not be mated yet but she moves slower like she is. I didn't see a queen or eggs in the regular hive but I did see empty queen cells so she may have been out mating or I missed her in the melee. The cells look shiny in both so hopefully you are right and they get laying. All of them are busy putting up nectar and capping honey so I think the flow is going okay, sorry to hear yours has slowed. Not much pollen coming in now but they already have a lot stored.

I'm happy because now even if the queens I ordered don't show I have at least two queens. Once the nuc fills out I will move them into the hive and be back at two hives but for the price of just one package this time.

Hope you come back to see eggs and larvae in your Hive 1!


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Well, we came back Sunday evening but the weather has been such that we haven't gone into the hives until this evening, and that was a quick look without the camera so no photos. As it is, we got things closed up and ourselves back into the house before a thunderstorm opened up!

So, Hive 1... no queen. All the brood on the comb we brought over is capped (some emerging as we were looking at it), and there are a number of capped queen cells on it now so they have gone ahead with trying again with raising a queen. They have also started loading up a couple of combs with nectar and a bit of pollen, so I guess they're still optimistic!

Our question now is... should we wait again and see whether or not they're able to raise a new queen, or go ahead and order one? They seem to be hard to find at the moment, but BeeWeaver is booking for queens to be shipped on the first of July or later. That would get us a queen a week from now. 

I'd like to give the girls a chance to raise their own again, but feel that time is against them.

Thanks,
Tom


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Hi Tom! What does the timeline look like on this new queen? Have you checked out Michael Bush's website for his beemath?

I started my nuc on the 19th of May, checked a week later and didn't like the one queen cell they made so gave them a new bar on the 25th and culled the puny cell. The new queen had hatched by the 8th of June, and was mated and laying by the 16th. Given that timeline it took just over three weeks. The other nuc and hive had a similar timeline (little longer at three and a half weeks) with the hive taking longest to have a laying queen. When I inspected on the 25th of May there were no queen cells. I spotted one thru the window the morning of the 4th of June (I think they swarmed later that day or early the next). I split the nuc off on the 8th, the cells looked ripe and one had a papery tip. I saw a queen in the nuc on the 18th, evidence of laying by the 23rd. The original hive also had a mated laying queen by the 23rd.

Did your queen cells look ripe and have thinned caps? If they are ready to hatch you may be just a short time away from a mated and laying queen. 

Have you read the FAQ section on the BeeWeaver site?


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi, Colleen!

Yes, I tend to keep a web page open to Michael's Beemath page! :thumbsup: 

We moved the comb with brood on it from Hive 2 to Hive 1 on the 17th. If they started working on building the queen cells immediately then the cells have been capped maybe 5 days now? Hard to say since we weren't here to keep an eye on them. And we don't know for sure whether they started from already-hatched larvae or from new eggs; we couldn't see eggs at the time but we hoped some would be there and judging from the fact that most of the queen cells are on the outer edges of the comb where I don't think there was hatched larvae they could have been capped even more recently. We could have up to another week before emerging in that case, then another 10+ days before we have a laying queen. That's starting to feel like a long time to me at this point.

I have read BeeWeaver's FAQs, don't recall readying anything that gave me pause. Anything in particular to think about there?

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Deleted; double post.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

The thing that worried me most was having the queen hatch but not make it back and ending up with laying workers, that was part of why I made that nuc when I saw the swarm cells. I can understand why you want to err on the side of caution. Are you at all worried about southern bees not being acclimated to your winters?


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

We never did see a new queen in ours, just the queen cells and then the remains of the queen cells after the bees started tearing them down. No idea what may have happened to her. We still have no evidence of a laying working. I think that our putting in the brood comb from Hive 2 may have helped with avoiding that. 

That brood is from a Georgia package, which is doing very well. No idea how they will winter, but the seller is a beekeeper from the local association who brings the packages up to sell each year. They seem to do OK. 

The failing colony is from a northern apiary. small cell and chemical-free. I'd hoped it would do better, of course, but they never have drawn large combs and of course they superceded their queen after the first found of emerging bees. If I do let them finish raising a queen rather than buy one they'll still have a southern queen since she'll be from the southern package. I have been looking for northern sources, but so far haven't had any luck. I'm going to check with our association president; he raises queens but I don't know if he has any available. Right now my biggest concern is trying to get this hive to a viable point. I'd like to have two colonies going in to winter and at the moment the jury seems to be out on whether or not that's doable.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Well… When we got back from our trip we had to wait a few days before we could get into the hive due to weather. We found that there were no new larvae, just capped larvae on the donor comb and a few queen cells. This was June 26th or so. We thought about and looked into buying a replacement queen but decided to wait. The bees had been taking some syrup, but as fast as a package, for instance. We did notice nectar and some pollen on some comb. Today a brief look at the donor comb revealed that most of the brood has emerge and the bees have backfilled the center of the comb with nectar. There are still some capped brood around the outer perimeter. The queen cells have been opened. When I saw that I put the comb back and told Rhonda we’re not going into the hive other than to refill the feeders as needed. Since it had been two weeks since we put the syrup in and it was just now emptied I figure we won’t be going in for at least a week and a half, two weeks, unless something prompts us to go in sooner. I had thought of pulling another donor comb from Hive 2 but opted not to go that route.

We’ll just have to wait and see.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I've got my fingers crossed! Based on when you put that comb in you MAY see eggs by the 14th but more likely by the 21st. (As I am sure you know, I'm just looking it up so I know how long I have to wait for the rest of the story!)

I really hope this one comes back and really turns that hive around for you! All three of mine made it back but living in an urban area may have helped with that. I seem to recall someone on here saying that they had trouble with queens from one yard making it back and they thought it might be dragonfly? predation.

I looked in my first split nuc the other day and I have lots of capped brood, larvae, eggs (every cell had something in it), nectar, and some pollen. The bees started drawing comb again and all 8 bars are now fully drawn so I will have to do something fast or they may decide to leave on me.


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Thanks, Colleen!

We've had a couple of days of rain, and the 10-day forecast is for another week of rainy days. If we do have a virgin queen in there I hope she's able to get her mating flight(s) in between bouts of rain! 

Odd weather all the way around this year. Not a very cold winter with little snow, long, cool, wet spring, and now over a week of rain predicted in July. On the plus side, a red delicious apple tree that has never had more than three apples on it is fully laden down, as are the other two apple trees (Granny Smiths) and our peach tree. Lots of grapes and raspberries and blackberries, too. Since the trees bloomed before we had the bees I can't credit them with the high output--we're thinking it was the weather. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Hi Tom,

Did you look into the hive to see if you have a laying queen or are you waiting another week?


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi, Colleen,

No, we haven't looked yet. We've been feeding, but that's it. We're going to giver it a bit more time, then check. If we have a laying queen, then great! We'll keep on eye on things and see how it goes. If not, we may just do a newspaper combine with the remaining bees into the other hive. Strengthen it up a bit, and if it survives winter do a split from it in the spring. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

*We have a queen, and she's been busy as a, well, bee!!!*



We're all smiles here!!! We have a laying queen!!! :banana:

It took some self-discipline, but we managed to not go into the hive for a couple of weeks. We've not laid eyes on Her Majesty yet nor have I spotted her in the photos I've taken today. But take a look at her work!!!















There's capped honey and pollen along with the brood and larvae. We have been feeding and they've been taking the syrup. A couple of weeks ago at our Association's meeting we were relieved to hear that we're not the only ones feeding right now. We're excited with this latest development! We were almost convinced that we would lose the hive.

So, off to do more happy dancing!!! :banana: :banana: :banana: (Well, not really... I need to replace the starter in my wife's car, but I will be happy dancing on the inside while I do it! 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

*Re: We have a queen, and she's been busy as a, well, bee!!!*

Yay!!! So happy to hear that! Beautiful brood pattern, looks like they are well on their way to recovery.


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