# Have access to 100 deeps with frames; need your thoughts



## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Hello all,
I have come across a deal about an hour and a half away from me, where someone moved in to a property, and the lean-to shed had about 100 used deep hives bodies with frames and comb, all complete and in good condition. So, basically, he talked to me and said I could have them for free. I went through them and found no sign of foulbrood in what remaining comb there was, as mice have completely decimated most of the comb. So I'm thinking I will go and get all these supers, and I will pitch the comb and old Duragilt foundation, sterilize all frames and hive bodies, and then either keep them for expansion of my operation or sell them. There is a huge stack of telescoping covers and bottom boards that he said I may have also. What are your thoughts? How would you sterilize the boxes and frames? Thanks in advance.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I'd sure use the boxes. If the frames had metal wedges driven in to secure the Duragilt they might be more trouble than they are worth to reuse. Considering a new wood frame is about the same price as the foundation I have never been too excited about putting a new foundation in an old frame. Give it a try with some and see how it goes.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Thanks, Jim. It does have those metal strips along the sides, but I have tried just punching lots of the comb out, and it comes out easy as pie. No trouble at all. Like I mentioned, most of it is Duragilt, but there is several handfuls of crimp-wire. There is also a few wax moth cocoons.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Chuck the frames. They are probably dried out and brittle anyway. Not worth using, when new are more likely what you want or like and not that expensive. Looking at the fact that the boxes didn't cost you anything you hav e saved quite a lot that you can use for frames and foundation.

Scorch the boxes by standing 4 or 5 upside down on a bottom board. Place a sheet or two of newspaper on the bottom board. Dribble kerosene around on the inside walls of the stack of supers, wetting the newspaper. Light the newspaper from the part sticking out the entrance and stand back. 

This will create a chimney fire. It will roar and shoot flames up into the air above the boxes. Be mindful of the wind. Approaching from the side from which the wind is blowing carefully place a telescoping cover on top of the supers. This will dampen the fire, if the wood isn't burning too much.

Knock the stake over w/ a shovel and rolol the supers around on the ground. The flames should go out. You could douse them w/ water.

That's how I was taught to scorch supers exposed to AFB.

A simpler and safer method, which may not be as effective, is to use a handheld torch, running it up and down the inside of each box, especially the inside corners. I doubt that you7 can get as good a heat as w/ the chimney. To be really effective one should be able to scrap charcoal off the inside of the boxes.

Good luck.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

westernbeekeeper said:


> Thanks, Jim. It does have those metal strips along the sides, but I have tried just punching lots of the comb out, and it comes out easy as pie. No trouble at all. Like I mentioned, most of it is Duragilt, but there is several handfuls of crimp-wire. There is also a few wax moth cocoons.


Duracomb doesn't have the metal ribs on each side like Duragilt does. Both have the plastic between the wax. Either way, chuck it.


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## Robndixie (Oct 20, 2012)

how can you tell there is no sign of foulbrood in old combs?


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

100 free deeps. A nice situation to find yourself in. Good advice here.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Chuck the frames. They are probably dried out and brittle anyway. Not worth using, when new are more likely what you want or like and not that expensive. Looking at the fact that the boxes didn't cost you anything you hav e saved quite a lot that you can use for frames and foundation.
> 
> Scorch the boxes by standing 4 or 5 upside down on a bottom board. Place a sheet or two of newspaper on the bottom board. Dribble kerosene around on the inside walls of the stack of supers, wetting the newspaper. Light the newspaper from the part sticking out the entrance and stand back.
> 
> ...


Sqkcrk, I have been taught how to do this too, except with gasoline instead of kerosene. I forgot about using that method as an option. That's my best bet so far. As far as the frames, or all of the equipment for that matter, they are in near new condition. No brittleness or dryrot, very structurally sound. I would have a hard time chucking the frames, since they are in good used shape, but I will still be thankful for the boxes even if I have to pitch the frames. It _is_ free, after all.



Robndixie said:


> how can you tell there is no sign of foulbrood in old combs?


Rob: I have looked at boxes for sale with old comb with foulbrood. Sunken cappings, very small poor old brood pattern, dried out larvae flattened on the bottom of the cells, etc. Could be symptom of something else, though, I guess. But your never know for sure. I have bought a few boxes here and there that looked way worse than these, and after a safety sterilization, I put them to use. 2-3 years later, not a sign of disease in any of those (now active) hives. I used the old frames, too.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> A simpler and safer method, which may not be as effective, is to use a handheld torch, running it up and down the inside of each box, especially the inside corners. I doubt that you7 can get as good a heat as w/ the chimney. To be really effective one should be able to scrap charcoal off the inside of the boxes.


That's what I have been doing for 2 years now, but the "chimney firing" method would be more effective. I will try that; can I use gasoline instead of kerosene?


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Wow! At the price (free) I'd sterilize and take my chances, provided I could get bees cheap, too (splits, swarms, etc). My hive was built with old family equipment that had been in storage for 30+ years, and I didn't have many problems with the frames. Although, as sqkcrk pointed out, a few were brittle and warped. A few others had wax moth and wood boring insect damage that made them useless.

I've sterilized boxes with a torch. It wasn't bad with six. One hundred would be a nightmare.

Just my first-year beek $0.02.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

For the boxes, use one of those charcoal starting baskets and when the charcoal is good and hot, stack 5 or six boxes around it and place a metal cover on top of it all and let it cook. What you've done is create an oven that will kill any FB and it's easy.......


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

I would dip the boxes in paraffin. They will last longer and the heat of liquid wax will kill every disease that could possibly be in the wood.

http://www.queenrightcolonies.com/uploads/HotWaxDippingofBeehives.pdf

Go to page 14 of PDF.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

westernbeekeeper said:


> That's what I have been doing for 2 years now, but the "chimney firing" method would be more effective. I will try that; can I use gasoline instead of kerosene?


Sure you can, but it's more dangerous in my opinion.

If the frames are as nice as you say, I'd clean them of comb and use as is. I don't know what you could reasonably do to sterilize them that wouldn't make them unusable.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> That's how I was taught to scorch supers exposed to AFB.


Don't the boxes on the top get chared more than the one on the bottom?


> A simpler and safer method, which may not be as effective, is to use a handheld torch,


The hand torch is a much hotter flame but sterility is based on time and temperature. If you take the time and carefully cover all the areas it will be effective.

Using gasoline is foolish and may not be as effective as kero.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

RAK said:


> I would dip the boxes in paraffin. They will last longer and the heat of liquid wax will kill every disease that could possibly be in the wood.


Best option put forward..........if you've the equipment to do so.........


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The fire trick sounds interesting, but yikes

If your not seeing scale in the brood comb, you are probably okay to use the boxes if not the comb itself.
Bees fix up comb real fast.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I use one of these puppies to sterilize old boxes and pallets. This thing is a flamethrower. Don't bother trying to use a little propane bottle torch. Will take forever .

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Dragon-VT...=1351866417&sr=8-1&keywords=weed+burner+torch


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

westernbeekeeper said:


> ... can I use gasoline instead of kerosene?


Do you remember the thread where you wanted feedback on your business plan? Where various posters brought up the issue of health insurance? And as I recall you don't have any? 

I didn't see any line item in that business plan for "plastic surgery" to attempt to undo an accidental 3rd degree burn.  If you're going to run without insurance, you need to think about the "worst case" options and the best way to avoid that scenario.

Kerosene is low risk compared to gasoline.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Is there any research on UV killing AFB spores? I would think it would be easy to get a bulb for a UV sterilizer and hang it in a stack of 5-10 boxes and walk away for 30 minutes or so.


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## Steves1967 (May 16, 2012)

What kind of temperature does it take to kill afb and similar diseases?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

JRG13 said:


> Is there any research on UV killing AFB spores?


Have not seen any research on it , but if you find it......post it!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Found an article on using UV to kill Nosema spores so I would assume it would destroy other bacterial spores as well.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

JRG13 said:


> Found an article on using UV to kill Nosema spores so I would assume it would destroy other bacterial spores as well.


Not a bad assumption but I would not assume........too much at stake.........


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I know SNL, I figure biology of bacterial spores is similar and the mode of action of UV is pretty tough to resist. I will look into it more deeply, but one article did mention AFB spores viable up to 70 years.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

loggermike said:


> I use one of these puppies to sterilize old boxes and pallets. This thing is a flamethrower. Don't bother trying to use a little propane bottle torch. Will take forever .
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Red-Dragon-VT...=1351866417&sr=8-1&keywords=weed+burner+torch


I think Harbor freight had one for about 12 bucks.

I don't believe UV will get the penetration into the wood that you need to kill all the spores.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Don't the boxes on the top get chared more than the one on the bottom?
> 
> 
> The hand torch is a much hotter flame but sterility is based on time and temperature. If you take the time and carefully cover all the areas it will be effective.
> ...


Having used a hand torch I'd rather do the stack and burn method.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

The following quote was taken from Richard Taylor’s “The How To Do It Book Of Beekeeping”:

47. How To Sterilize Hives

“…..The equipment having been scraped, stack three hive bodies (five or six if you are dealing with shallow supers) upside down on an old bottom board. Sprinkle kerosene (never gasoline) lightly on the inside of this stack, especially the corners. Now crumple three or four sheets of newspaper and drop them in. Next drop a rumpled sheet of paper that is burning well. The stack immediately becomes a roaring chimney. After a few seconds slap a board or old cover over the stack and with a stick block the entrance below, instantly suffocating the fire. The hives are now sterilized and need only be aired out to get rid of the kerosene odor. They should not be scorched heavily inside only thoroughly singed.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

NasalSponge said:


> They should not be scorched heavily inside only thoroughly singed.


This part doesn't make sense to me. The kero smell indicates that the kero seeped into the wood and did not burn all the way. That shields the heat from the wood just like it would if you sprayed the boxes with water before drizzling them with kero.
The advantage of a torch is the flame is hottest at it's tip so it should sterilize (term used loosely) without as much destruction. The con is it might take longer but if you used a weed burner like what was shown in the link I don't think time would be an issue.
I can see where the flaming chimney would be used by an Apiary Inspector for its convenience. Perfectly understandable.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> _*As a bee inspector*_ I can see where the flaming chimney would be use as a convenience.


Wow, you are now a New York _Apiary Inspector_? :scratch: Congratulations, that must have been a lot of work.

http://www.agriculture.ny.gov/PI/PIHome.html

When did that happen?


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I have used the stack and burn method in the past. I never felt like it gave an 'even' distribution of heat for sterilization purposes. I like the weedburner (did 400 5 frame nucs and a bunch of used pallets with it this summer).
This looks like the Harbor Freight one Ace referred to. http://www.harborfreight.com/propane-torch-91033.html
Looks like it would do the job .I think I will pick one up for a backup.


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## seyc (Jul 15, 2012)

Okay, here is what Wikipedia says:



> Because of the persistence of the spores (which can survive up to 40 years), many State Apiary Inspectors require an AFB diseased hive to be burned completely. A less radical method of containing the spread of disease is burning the frames and comb and thoroughly flame scorching the interior of the hive body, bottom board and covers. Dipping the hive parts in hot paraffin wax or a 3% sodium hypochlorite solution (bleach) also renders the AFB spores innocuous.[13] It is also possible to sterilize an infected hive without damaging either the structure of the hive or the stores of honey and pollen it contains by sufficiently lengthy exposure to an atmosphere of ethylene oxide gas, as in a closed chamber, as hospitals do to sterilize equipment that cannot withstand steam sterilization.[14][15]


And here are they sources they cite:


> 13. Dobbelaere W, de Graaf DC, Reybroeck W, Desmedt E, Peeters JE, Jacobs FJ (August 2001). "Disinfection of wooden structures contaminated with Paenibacillus larvae subsp. larvae spores" J. Appl. Microbiol. 91 (2): 212–6. doi:10.1046/j.1365-2672.2001.01376.x. PMID 11473585
> 
> 14. Robinson. Gas Sterilization of Beekeeping Equipment Contaminated by the American Foulbrood Organism, Bacillus larvae. The Florida Entomologist. JSTOR 3493642
> 
> 15. . JSTOR 3493642


Bacillus spores are basically like little seeds. Once conditions are right, they will pop off their hard shell and start growing again. They are also the reason that pressure sterilization was invented. They are hard to kill.

So, burning, dipping in wax or bleach, or exposing them to EtO would all work. I think it might be a little hard to get your hands on some EtO, but maybe that is just me. opcorn:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Some States used to have ETO Chambers. Some were on trailers so they could be taken to where equipment w2as in need of sterilization. ETO is carcinogistic, so it went out of common usage.

I'm surprised Wikipedia didn't mention irradiation.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

loggermike said:


> This looks like the Harbor Freight one Ace referred to. http://www.harborfreight.com/propane-torch-91033.html


Very simular. Mine is a solid can shaped flame thrower and works well for burning weeds against the buildings that I have to do. I don't use the pull trigger. I set the valve for the size of the flame I want. When the LP tank is full pulling the trigger can be a hair burning experience. My wife is deathly afraid of the thing.

Rader Sidetrack, I am NOT a bee inspector. If my wording is incorrect or confusing please state the proper wording for my post. I will edit it and be eternally grateful.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> As a bee inspector I can see where the flaming chimney would be use as a convenience. Perfectly understandable.


I can see where the flaming chimney would be use[d] [by an Apiary Inspector for its] convenience. 

Maybe that's what you meant?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Some States used to have ETO Chambers. Some were on trailers so they could be taken to where equipment w2as in need of sterilization. ETO is carcinogistic, so it went out of common usage.
> 
> I'm surprised Wikipedia didn't mention irradiation.


Both are costly and a can of kero in the field is hard to beat. BTW if he wasn't so far away I would take the frames.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I took a portable propane heater to mine and it was a time consuming experience. I have a weed burner as well but never tried it on used boxes. That Harbor freight weed burner really howls when you pull the trigger! I was going to do some the ‘Lauri’ method and will need to break that bad boy out again. Anybody know how the glues (Titebond) hold up to that heat?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

minz said:


> Anybody know how the glues (Titebond) hold up to that heat?


The way to intentionally disassemble a cured Titebond joint is with heat. From the Titebond FAQ page:



> What is the best way to disassemble a glue joint?The key to the disassembly of glue joints is weakening the bond. For Titebond Original, Titebond II and Titebond III, raising the glue joint temperature with a heat gun or a blow dryer will reduce the glue's strength. Steam from an iron may also work.
> 
> http://www.titebond.com/frequently_asked_questions.aspx


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I was going to mention a bleach dip but it would probably be hard on any metal in the hives.


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## Steves1967 (May 16, 2012)

It's just a guess but I think it would be a really long wait to get the bleach smell out of the equipment too.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Bleach oxidizes quickly and you would need to rinse first as well I would imagine but the salt left behind might be good for the bees w/o rinsing but it would corrode any metal somewhat. I would think wax dipping would be good except the boxes are painted already and I would think uneven absorption might cause issues.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Well, here's an update;
I went and picked up these deeps, and there are exactly 130 of them, all with frames, plus 20 solid bottom boards, and 20 telescoping covers, all for FREE (minus the $50 in gasoline to go get them). I am looking at it all, and yes, I am thinking I will just burn the frames. It would take most of forever to sterilize 1300 frames! there are alot of dry-rotten and just bad like someone predicted earlier.  I can get 1300 deep frames from Mann Lake for right about $3000. Does anyone else know of a cheaper place?


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Is Pierco an option for you?
Call Nick, he will give you a good price.
No assembly, foundation, glue or staples.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

I currently mill my own frames. When I don't, I would get frames from Browning cut Stock or Western Bee budget frames. I get all my snap in foundation from Nick. Gives me the best price.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Yes, Pierco one-peice would be an option. Currently, anything is an option; I just want price efficiency.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Pierco have not worked very well for me. They tend to warp and maybe from my waxing of them. If you don't put them in with the bow the same way, bees will bill cross comb between the adjacent foundation. So they are a pain remembering the bow direction.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

WB

Have you ever used plastic frames before? Before you purchase 1300 of them you might want to ask around especially if you are used to wooden frames. There are numerous posts on here about the ML PF series (plastic) frames. They have their quirks, some of which you might not be thrilled about. Sounds like you got a good deal on the boxes, don't scrimp on the frames because of a few bucks.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

UPDATE:

Well folks,
I decided to keep them all for my own use. I will buy new wooden frames from ML as I need them. I have developed an efficient "system" for scraping, firing, and painting the supers. The kerosene method that Sqkcrk described in one of the first couple posts works fabulously. Thanks everyone for your input so far; I really appreciate it. It will cost me around $8,000 to complete about 42 double-deep hives with bees, if I buy all of it new (package bees also). So there's an update.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

RAK said:


> I would dip the boxes in paraffin. They will last longer and the heat of liquid wax will kill every disease that could possibly be in the wood.
> 
> http://www.queenrightcolonies.com/uploads/HotWaxDippingofBeehives.pdf
> 
> Go to page 14 of PDF.


That is the only way to really sterilize those bodies. I've done it the old way mind you, but it is not anywhere close to geting all AFB spores, plus it weatherizes the bodies too.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

1. The USDA tells me "hard boil" (I ask about wood) for 4 Hr. will not destroy all the AFB spores, organisms, and pathogens. 
bleach or lye will not help

2. The USDA tells me heat to 350F to kill AFB for 30 or more minutes (the wood will be on fire)


3. Irradiation: Is an effective way of killing all of the spores without damaging your equipment, including frames with wax foundation.


Hot wax wont kill it ether it simply ENCAPSULATES it beekeepers in NEWZELAND have excused this method as unreliable and scorch the boxes is not a 100% 


You can contact: USDA Beltsville Bee Research Laboratory and see what thier tell you 
About bleach kill AFB on wood and wax.

Bee Research is located at: 
10300 BALTIMORE AVENUE 
BLDG. 476, RM. 100, BARC-EAST Beltsville, MD 20705 USA


http://www.ars.usda.gov/contactus/contactus.htm?modecode=12-45-33-00



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Thanks Jim, where is that data published? I'd like to read it. 

Ben is talking about hive components with no sign of AFB, so any of these methods are probably overkill. 

The flash point of wood is about 450 degrees F..... ? I'm planning on using the wax dipping process, if its a bad idea, I will reconsider, but I want to see a scientific paper before abandoning the idea.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

call the folks at beltsville bee lab. they sent me info that showed good spore kill at 275 degrees for 2 hours. 

but fair warning, i tried it and it was almost grounds for divorce. 

what would be the signs of afb in the hive components?


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Not speaking for Ben, but he noted no evidence on the remaining combs after the mice had their way.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

(foot out of mouth) sorry lee, that's what i get for jumping in without having read the whole thread.

dipping in wax or scorching may be overkill, but i don't blame ben for taking the precaution.

good score ben!


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Lburou said:


> .
> 
> The flash point of wood is about 450 degrees F..... ? I'm planning on using the wax dipping process, if its a bad idea, I will reconsider, but I want to see a scientific paper before abandoning the idea.



I hope you are sure about the flash point of wood ...and how about the paint on the wood ???

This one is 500F for wood but at what size 

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-ignition-temperatures-d_171.html

And what as the flash point of the bee wax in the wood ??? 

IMHO at will make the flash point lower ???

Hot wax wont kill AFB ether it simply ENCAPSULATES it beekeepers in NEW ZELAND have excused this method as unreliable 




BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

So are we saying here is that irradiation is the ONLY sure way of eliminating AFB?


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

squarepeg said:


> call the folks at beltsville bee lab. they sent me info that showed good spore kill at 275 degrees for 2 hours.
> 
> but fair warning, i tried it and it was almost grounds for divorce.
> 
> what would be the signs of afb in the hive components?


 As is in wood???


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i misunderstood the post jim, hopefully everyone knows that you can't see the afb spores by visually inspecting the wood. duh.. my bad.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

snl said:


> So are we saying here is that irradiation is the ONLY sure way of eliminating AFB?


I do know irradiation kill it ALL 100% the ONLY way I do NOT know



.You can contact: USDA Beltsville Bee Research Laboratory and see what thier tell you 
Bee Research is located at: 
10300 BALTIMORE AVENUE 
BLDG. 476, RM. 100, BARC-EAST Beltsville, MD 20705 USA


http://www.ars.usda.gov/contactus/co...de=12-45-33-00



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Look at Pg. 19 for AFB

http://www.queenrightcolonies.com/uploads/HotWaxDippingofBeehives.pdf

Publication May 2001

I read this in Bee Culture about 5-6 years ago Hot wax wont kill AFB ether it simply ENCAPSULATES it beekeepers in NEW ZELAND have excused this method as unreliable 



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Jim 134 said:


> LHot wax wont kill AFB ether it simply ENCAPSULATES it beekeepers in NEW ZELAND have excused this method as unreliable


This to me doesn't make scientific sense. If you encapsulate the spores you have essentially sterilized it. A sterilized rubber glove does not kill the germs on your hands but prevents the transmission of the germs to someone else.
This is an important fact, you cannot guarantee sterility by treating with radiation all you can do is guarantee that something went through a sterilization process (which is involved to determine power levels and exposure) - very procedure oriented.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> This to me doesn't make _scientific _sense. If you encapsulate the spores you have essentially sterilized it.


Uhh, what about when you accidentally strike the interior of the contaminated hive body with your hive tool and ding or gouge it? How well is that _encapsulation _going to work at that point? 

:lpf:Got to have me an animated icon!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't believe it would have any significant difference at all, even if you did it once a day.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I don't believe it would have any _significant _difference at all, even if you did it once a day.


Are you saying that with your _scientist's _hat on?  Have you run studies? No?


Acebird said:


> This to me doesn't make scientific sense.





Acebird said:


> A sterilized rubber glove does not kill the germs on your hands but prevents the transmission of the germs to someone else.


Perhaps you wouldn't mind having a surgeon operate on you with _holes _in his latex gloves?
:lpf:


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I don't believe it would have any significant difference at all, even if you did it once a day.


And how about the sterilized glove ? Would being in contact with deadly germs be OK once a day?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I believe surgeons still wash their hands thoroughly before putting on gloves and some times more than one pair of gloves.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Perhaps you wouldn't mind having a surgeon operate on you with _holes _in his latex gloves?
> :lpf:


If it is a choice of dying without the surgery I would.
I don't know why I try to educate you, sometimes I think it can't be done. Not every surgery is done in a nice clean operating room. Sometimes equipment is use from one patient to the next without sterilization between uses. Emergency surgery on the battle field is quite different than what you might expect.



> Would being in contact with deadly germs be OK once a day?


You are making an assumption that this would be the same. If you ding the box with the hive tool the spores are still encapsulated. A few spores might transfer to the hive tool but there could be a few there already. So I am not following your line of reasoning.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I don't know why I try to educate you, sometimes I think it can't be done.


Ace is expanding his _alleged _skill levels. First it was a "highly skilled carpenter / engineer." Just today he has also expanded into "scientist", then "surgeon" and now Ace is an educator. I can hardly wait til he claims to be an _English _teacher.

I am _most honored_ that Ace takes time out his busy day to _try _educate little old me. But much like some of his other endeavors, Ace's venture into my education is going to _fall short_. I will be the smart-ass student in the back row correcting the teacher when he makes an error. :gh:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We annually scrap the insides of our supers to remove any build up of propolis and wax. We use a 2 inch wide paint scraper, and it leaves a 2 inch wide swatch of exposed wood. That sounds significant.

Does anyone know the spore level threshold for expression of clinical symptoms? 

Crazy Roland


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I'm thinking that its an acceptable risk to have encapsulated spores in a hive (your hive of course, not mine  ).....until the hive bodies and supers are no longer serviceable. About that time, the viable spores could see the light of day again as the wood disintegrates. It should be burned before that point.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Acebird said:


> This to me doesn't make scientific sense. If you encapsulate the spores you have essentially sterilized it. A sterilized rubber glove does not kill the germs on your hands but prevents the transmission of the germs to someone else.
> This is an important fact, you cannot guarantee sterility by treating with radiation all you can do is guarantee that something went through a sterilization process (which is involved to determine power levels and exposure) - very procedure oriented.


So Acebird Irradiation WILL NOT KILL AFB ???

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/s480x480/547018_171263869678332_649165190_n.jpg

Irradiation: Is an effective way of killing all of the spores without damaging your equipment, including frames with wax foundation. 


you need to go to work for the USDA
.You can contact: USDA Beltsville Bee Research Laboratory and see what thier tell you 
Bee Research is located at: 
10300 BALTIMORE AVENUE 
BLDG. 476, RM. 100, BARC-EAST Beltsville, MD 20705 USA


http://www.ars.usda.gov/contactus/co...de=12-45-33-00

Or Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts 

For me I will Irradiation about 60 Mi one way and about $15.00 a box.

http://www.isomedix.com/Gamma/Locations.html

I do not know if this is the only Co. in the USA that dose this or not 


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I believe there is a place in PA where irradiation is done also. Irradiation of beekeeping equipment, primarily supers of infected comb, has been an acceptable and effective practice for sometime now. Twenty years or more. 

It is my understanding that the equipment has to be individually placed in a plastic bag and inside a cardboard box. I don't know if that is true or not. Just something I have heard. So it could be wrong. Perhaps someone from MA knows.

I agree w/ Brian, that encapsulation should be an adequately effective means of handling AFB spores. It minimizes the availability of those spores, which would have to be picked up by bees when they were doing something to the walls of the super's interior, propolizing it?

Whether irradiation or hot wax dipping is worthwhile is something to question taking into consideration the possible risk of exposure of AFB spores regenerating the disease, the cost in time and money inherent in each procedure, the quality of the equipment, and how easy it is to simply burn or bury the infected equipment and buy new equipment to replace what is infected. I routinely burn uninfected equipment because I don't want it around and I'd like to increase the value of what I have.

I have a friend who has lots of boxes stenciled AFB ETO. Gives people a chuckle when they see it. And a pause too.

It takes 35 AFB spores fed to a honeybee larvae less than 53 hours old after egg hatch to infect at an LD50 rate. One spore has been found to infect newly hatched larva.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

If you go to this site "http://www.montcobeekeepers.org/Pages/Irradiation.aspx" you'll see the details about what is required to have hive equipment irradiated. It's the club I belong to, Montgomery County PA Beekeepers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks. That's good to know.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> It is my understanding that the equipment has to be individually placed in a plastic bag and inside a cardboard box. I don't know if that is true or not. Just something I have heard. So it could be wrong. Perhaps someone from MA knows.


You must put ALL equipment in plastic bag and put in cardboard box and ALL boxes are the same size (J-24) if your equipment will not fit in to a (J-24) box forget at.......... IF and box LEAK AT ALL it will go into the trash............

IMHO If the comb as no good it is NOT Worth it .......




BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

Has anybody tried placing AFB or EFB infected equipment in a vacuum chamber for treatment? 

At 10000 micron, the water in the bacteria would boil at room temperature, and wouldn't that destroy them completely?

Dave


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

djastram said:


> Has anybody tried placing AFB or EFB infected equipment in a vacuum chamber for treatment?
> 
> At 10000 micron, the water in the bacteria would boil at room temperature, and wouldn't that destroy them completely?
> 
> Dave


Hope this help you 
http://youtu.be/05tCHtUyNHM

http://youtu.be/wyiaV222JoQ


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> We annually scrap the insides of our supers to remove any build up of propolis and wax. We use a 2 inch wide paint scraper, and it leaves a 2 inch wide swatch of exposed wood. That sounds significant.


Depends ...
Assuming the wax penetration is deep enough the spores are still captivated. The tool and scrapings I would sterilize. Lets get something straight, I am not suggesting you control AFB once it is found by wax coating. All I am saying is it sounds like it should work.



> So Acebird Irradiation WILL NOT KILL AFB ???


No Jim I didn't say that at all. I am saying there is still a risk that after a "sterilization process" it is possible to have live spores. Unlike the wax coating the wood is still cracked, checked or what ever which could harbor spores that made it through or new spores that came from the environment. I think the question is is sterilization done before an outbreak or after?

Great films BTW


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Acebird said:


> This to me doesn't make scientific sense. If you encapsulate the spores you have essentially sterilized it. A sterilized rubber glove does not kill the germs on your hands but prevents the transmission of the germs to someone else.
> This is an important fact, you cannot guarantee sterility by treating with radiation all you can do is guarantee that something went through a sterilization process (which is involved to determine power levels and exposure) - very procedure oriented.


Acebird.......This is reply #60


Did you not post this ???




BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> the spores are still captivated.


Favorite quote of the day.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You can't use someones words to convict them. If it's good enuf for Romney, why not Brian?

Sorry Brian, I thought you wrote that too and shook my head when I read it. That darn text communication thing is tricky.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cg3 said:


> Favorite quote of the day.


I see you are encapsulated by Acebird's werds.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Yes, I find them... captivating.


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## Steves1967 (May 16, 2012)

Aside from foul brood I am very interested in the paraffin dip for weatherizing equipment, does it work well and is there a reasonable source for paraffin and microcrystalline wax?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i believe this is mike bush's method of choice. more feasable if several (a club) go in together as a group.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Steves1967 said:


> Aside from foul brood I am very interested in the paraffin dip for weatherizing equipment, does it work well and is there a reasonable source for paraffin and microcrystalline wax?



http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdipping.htm

2 parts beeswax (you can use paraffin) and 1 part gum rosin.





BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Assuming the wax penetration is deep enough the spores are still _captivated_.





cg3 said:


> Favorite quote of the day.


I am _captivated _by this whole discussion! :lpf:

*captivated *_past participle, past tense of cap·ti·vate_


Verb:
Attract and *hold the interest and attention* of; charm.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/captivated




Acebird said:


> I don't know why I try to educate you, sometimes I think it can't be done.


This is what happened to this thread. Ace put on his _scientist _hat and decided to _educate _us.


Acebird said:


> This to me doesn't make _scientific _sense.



:digging:


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Acebird....

Are you still using lead paint on your hive :s




BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

rader, what's the point? forgive me for saying so, but if are you trying to make yourself look good by making somebody else look bad, it's not working.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Sorry Brian, I thought you wrote that too and shook my head when I read it.


There is obviously a joke here but I don't get it.

Yes Jim I did say that. Are we thinking that not being able to guarantee sterilization is the same as not killing? They are not.

Oh, I see it now it is the word "captivated". Yup, you are right Mark. Joke is on me.


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## Steves1967 (May 16, 2012)

Thank you for the link Jim


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Ace, 

Irradiation is pretty absolute. 3/4" wooden ware isn't going to stop gama irradiation from penetrating everything. It is why it's effective. Not sure where you could get it done though and I imagine it isn't cheap.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

How about the nails,staples, metal brackets, handles, rails, process malfunctions etc. and human error? Yes very reliable but not absolute. Mistakes do happen and I am speaking of medical products not bee equipment.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

JRG13 said:


> Ace,
> 
> Irradiation is pretty absolute. 3/4" wooden ware isn't going to stop gama irradiation from penetrating everything. It is why it's effective. Not sure where you could get it done though and I imagine it isn't cheap.


For me I will Irradiation about 60 Mi one way and about $15.00 a box.

http://www.isomedix.com/Gamma/Locations.html

I do not know if this is the only Co. in the USA that dose this or not 


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Jim 134 said:


> For me I will Irradiation about 60 Mi one way and about $15.00 a box.


Is the 15 covering shipping and packing or just the irradiation fees?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

My boss sterlizes and preserves his boxes by boiling them in linseed oil and wax for 1 hour.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i think you might have more confidence with this method that the scorching. maybe if you asked him nicely....


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> i think you might have more confidence with this method that the scorching. maybe if you asked him nicely....


I have asked him, quite nicely in fact, but he figures that he would charge me $15-$20 per box after factoring in the oil, wax, propane, and labor. I can scorch for a lot cheaper than that, and I'm willing to risk it. I have also had assumed success doing it (scorching) in the past already, seeing I have bought smaller quantities of unused boxes from unknown sources, scorched them, and they've been in use a year or two and still are disease-free.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yep, much more cost efficient to scorch. i did a couple this year with the 'flame thrower'.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

westernbeekeeper said:


> he figures that he would charge me $15-$20 per box after factoring in the oil, wax, propane, and labor. I can scorch for a lot cheaper than that,


You can buy NEW for cheaper than that! Some boss.....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

westernbeekeeper said:


> I have asked him, quite nicely in fact, but he figures that he would charge me $15-$20 per box after factoring in the oil, wax, propane, and labor.


Sounds reasonable but if you are willing to take a chance why do anything?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Sounds reasonable but if you are willing to take a chance why do anything?


That is a good point, Ace. I have considered just trying a handful of unscorched hives for awhile and seeing how they do. I have over half the boxes, 75 out of 130, scorched already.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

:update: (WITH PHOTOS!)

Here's an update:
Okay everyone, I have all the supers totally taken care of. Scraped, stripped, sterilized, and painted. Whew! Plenty of work; but in all, including labor, it cost me about $250 to get the boxes into good shape and ready for bees (minus frames). But WOW, is it good to have them all done and taken care of, and put inside, especially since we are forecasted for a couple inches of rain tomorrow. I have 91 deeps, 38 mediums, 3 shallows, and 1 jumbo in all. A few have frames, but the *big* majority do not. I did get (along with all of this old equipment) a dozen or so telescoping covers and a handful of bottom boards. 
Here are some photos:

Here is the pile of frames:








A good frame with comb (not a lot of these):








A bad frame (not a lot of these either):








An average frame (most are like this):








Here are the covers and bottom boards:








And the stack(s) of supers:








A sterilized super:








I may yet sort through the frames and save the good ones; I don't know yet. But thanks for your help and thoughts, everyone! It is appreciated more than you know.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

You did a nice job they look great !


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

I agree!!! That's a pretty stack of boxes!! I even like the look of the inside.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Dang good job!


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

westernbeekeeper said:


> :update: (WITH PHOTOS!)
> 
> Here's an update:
> Okay everyone, I have all the supers totally taken care of. Scraped, stripped, sterilized, and painted. Whew! Plenty of work; but in all, including labor, it cost me about $250 to get the boxes into good shape and ready for bees (minus frames). But WOW, is it good to have them all done and taken care of, and put inside, especially since we are forecasted for a couple inches of rain tomorrow. I have 91 deeps, 38 mediums, 3 shallows, and 1 jumbo in all. A few have frames, but the *big* majority do not. I did get (along with all of this old equipment) a dozen or so telescoping covers and a handful of bottom boards.
> ...



Seen you got the comb look at 5:50 to 8:00 on this video
Part 1
http://youtu.be/05tCHtUyNHM

You may just like this one
Part 2
http://youtu.be/wyiaV222JoQ

I hope this help you out




BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Jim 134 said:


> Seen you got the comb look at 5:50 to 8:00 on this video
> Part 1
> http://youtu.be/05tCHtUyNHM
> 
> ...


Yes, that's what I look for. But, as afore mentioned, I did not see any of this.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Thanks everyone, I was pleased with the outcome too!:applause:


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

I have salvaged about 470 deep frames. I am scraping them clean and then soaking them in 30% bleach solution for 3 minutes, then setting them out to dry. I am stunned by the outcome. They turned out very well. I feel a lot better about using them now. Here are some pics:

Before:








After:


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Do you remember the thread where you wanted feedback on your business plan? Where various posters brought up the issue of health insurance? And as I recall you don't have any?
> 
> I didn't see any line item in that business plan for "plastic surgery" to attempt to undo an accidental 3rd degree burn.  If you're going to run without insurance, you need to think about the "worst case" options and the best way to avoid that scenario.
> 
> Kerosene is low risk compared to gasoline.


Oh Lord, Yeah I sure hope the burns I get come from Kerosene rather than Gasoline. Try some magnesium. that will light up your life.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Oh Lord, Yeah I sure hope the burns I get come from Kerosene rather than Gasoline. Try some magnesium. that will light up your life.


Burns from any source are usually quite painful. Personally, I don't see why anyone would _hope to get burned_. But you do seem to have an unusual outlook from the rest of us, perhaps you are "into" pain. _Whatever turns your crank_.

:ws:


For those that would like *real data*, the flash point of kerosene (100–162 °F) is substantially higher than gasoline(-45 °F). Note that is *minus *45 degrees. The flash point is *inversely *related to the potential hazard of a flammable liquid. More at the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

those frames look great ben, the bleach appears to have penetrated the wood very well.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> ... the bleach appears to have penetrated the wood very well.


And check out the _color change_ of Ben's hand in the before and after photos. No need to waste money on a tanning booth!  :lookout:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

trick photography?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Ben, that was a lot of work. Good job. It is when I think about all the non-bee contact work of running a large commercial apiary that suddenly my job doesn't seem so bad. I'm happy at sideliner status.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> And check out the _color change_ of Ben's hand in the before and after photos. No need to waste money on a tanning booth!  :lookout:





squarepeg said:


> trick photography?


LOL! Different times of day.



Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Ben, that was a lot of work. Good job. It is when I think about all the non-bee contact work of running a large commercial apiary that suddenly my job doesn't seem so bad. I'm happy at sideliner status.


Thanks. We still consider ourselves sideliners, but we're on the way up! I enjoyed getting those boxes back into commissionable status; it saved me a little money. Non-bee-contact work
isn't too bad if it's done in moderation.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> those frames look great ben, the bleach appears to have penetrated the wood very well.


I, too, was fascinated by the bleaching effect it had on the wood. I only soaked them for 3-5 minutes each batch.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i believe you approached the whole thing in a very reasonable way ben.

not finding any scale in the old comb was huge.

the bleaching and scorching were done well.

now, it's just a matter of careful inspections as you populate those hives.

good work!!


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Thanks for sharing this experience with us. Looks like you did well!


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

:update:

I was able to track all this old equipment back to the original owner. I called him and asked him about the history of this equipment: disease, etc. He said, "Why yes, there was AFB in 3 out of those 90 hives. I treated them and it went away; I'd reuse it all if I were you." But I don't want a big risk, so I will just use the boxes, covers, and bottom boards, but I will pitch/burn the frames. Oh well, better safe than sorry.


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