# Cow urine and EFB



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Bill Hesbach posted a link to this paper on Bee-L yesterday. The research, conducted over a six year period of time, shows that spraying your hive with 100% cow urine can completely cure a hive of EFB and promote better overall hive health. Uh, anyone willing to give it a field trial here in the US? Squarepeg?

https://www.asianagrihistory.org/pdf/volume19/ruchira-tiwari.pdf


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Very odd but the experiment and experiences described sound pretty legit. I was, however, left wondering what a chemical analysis of the urine used as opposed to other urines might reveal. I would submit that if one could synthesize the component or components that combat EFB to be used as the treatment would be far better from a public perception point of view. Pretty sure this isn't going to help the image of the purity of bee products from hives that have been treated with urine.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Not so many years ago pregnant mare urine used to be commercially collected for hormone production; estrogen perhaps? It is now synthesized. There might well be something valid in the connection with cow urine and bees.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Jim, you read my mind. Isolating the components or active ingredients that actually make it work, assuming that it does, would go a long way in the public perception of purity as compared to "cow piss honey". Sounds like something you would buy at Spencer's, right.next to the Old Fart spray.

The question remains though, do the salts in the urine help combat the EFB directly, or do they provide an otherwise unobtainable nutritional boost that enables the bees to resist the infection and improve overall vigor? Or both? Could this also be why we see bees foraging in fertilized potting soil? Just contemplating the mechanisms...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

"very interesting, but....", the late arte johnson

i am committed to defeating efb but not that committed.

i like jim's idea. too bad they didn't isolate the active ingredient(s).


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

squarepeg said:


> i am committed...but not that committed


:lpf:


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

I believe Switzerland is going through a very severe EFB issue for several years. It is strange they would not pickup on this idea and research it. The ugly issue can be "marketed out"  

Cow urine contains nitrogen, sulphur, phosphate, sodium, manganese, iron, silicon, chlorine, magnesium, maleic, citric, tartaric and calcium salts, vitamin A, B, C, D, E, minerals, lactose, enzymes, creatinine, hormones and gold acids. Ingredients of cow urine are similar with human body.


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## crab414 (Jan 6, 2020)

I wonder if my pig's urine is beneficial in this aspect. Maybe I can claim the pigs on my taxes as a support element for my bees 😁


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Same author did a mite study as well (I wasn't aware of the EFB work till I saw it on bee l) 70%+ mite kill https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/eac1/33002430783ed1b514edb71ca250e7841cc2.pdf

Must be some magic stuff, maby some one should see what happens if you put it in a propane fogger :lookout:k: (joke)

me, I will wait till there are some replicates


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## Apis Natural (Aug 31, 2017)

so one either teaches the cow to pee in a bucket or chase them around all with a bucket in hand...sound fun


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Apis Natural said:


> so one either teaches the cow to pee in a bucket or chase them around all with a bucket in hand...sound fun


Not much warning; when they are ready to go, they are quick on the draw! I've been had!

If the urine is not cow specific, I can think of easier sources!


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## crab414 (Jan 6, 2020)

One more reason to drink more beer.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I will stick with Mann Lake Terra patty. Works well and I would have a hard time procuring cow urine. Would my own urine work? Easy to procure and I often have to urinate while in the apiaries.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I guess this gives a whole new meaning in beekeeping when you say "piss on it"!!!!


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

formic acid and oxalic acid already in wide use, why not uric acid ?

Gives new meaning to ppbk, piss poor beekeeping....


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Its going to mess up calling out someone for PPB! (Pith Poor Beekeeping)


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Apparently it would run along the lines of UTI prevention. Considering the back end of the average cow in a barn, must be more than chance.


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## Schultz (Mar 9, 2015)

This reminds me of story one of my dairyman friends told me. He had about 80 cows in a stancion pipeline system. One of his friends decided a good way to make money without too much work would be to collect cow urine and sell it as deer urine to unsuspecting hunters. So, he shows up at milking time with a 5 gallon bucket and a 12 pack of beer. Doug said he'd see a cow pissing at one end of the barn and by the time he got there she was done. He said this went on for the duration of milking and was extremely amusing! He left with no urine and no beer.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Wonder what it might feel like to get stung while peeing on a hive vs more normal locations..
luckily Michael Smith of Cornell has done the testing for you Smith ML. 2014. Honey bee sting pain index by body location.


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## blainenay (Oct 14, 2011)

JWPalmer said:


> ...The research, conducted over a six year period of time, shows that spraying your hive with 100% cow urine can completely cure a hive of EFB and promote better overall hive health....


I wouldn't put anything in a hive that isn't approved by appropriate agencies. Remember, it's a box containing food for humans.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

you can grow "organic" food in the other waist product cows produce :kn:


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

There are a lot of comments on BEE-L regarding this subject. Very few are dismissive. Many are about how to collect cow pee. It may not be just cow urine that is effective either. The use of human urine originally started the thread. And, it appears that Randy Oliver may be open to conducting some preliminary testing. Search BEE-L for posts titled "Medicine for Bees."

Regarding appropriate agencies approving something for use on food, remember Alar was approved for use on apples and other fruits until they realized it was really bad for you 25 years later.


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## NectarNed (Sep 28, 2018)

JWPalmer said:


> Bill Hesbach posted a link to this paper on Bee-L yesterday. The research, conducted over a six year period of time, shows that spraying your hive with 100% cow urine can completely cure a hive of EFB and promote better overall hive health. Uh, anyone willing to give it a field trial here in the US? Squarepeg?
> 
> https://www.asianagrihistory.org/pdf/volume19/ruchira-tiwari.pdf


Cow urine is used for bathing by some traditional pastoralist cattle herders like the Dinka, the Nuer, and the Mundari. The claim is that it fights infection. Urine carries excess minerals and salts out of the body in water that has been highly filtered by the kidneys. I can imagine that evolution has favored the production of anti-bacterial/anti-fungal urine because the urethra and bladder would otherwise be prone to even more infections then they get now

https://pachodo.org/latest-news-art...-fires-smeared-on-the-skin-to-fight-infection

And duck semen too. 

https://www.inverse.com/science/anti-bacterial-duck-semen


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## kevvan (Oct 4, 2011)

msl said:


> you can grow "organic" food in the other waist product cows produce :kn:


There has always been that little nugget of training that comes and goes concerning bee forage for water and how they prefer urine and cow patties to plain water. Everyone speculated that it had to do with the notion that those substances, uh, give off an odor and that helps the bees find it. 

Perhaps it is like Stamets mushrooms, and the bees know something we do not and they are hitting it for a biological need.

KI.




____________________________________________________________________________
_When beekeepers go together, we can accomplish great things..._


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I've been treating my hives with urine for years. I always drink a lot before going to the bee yard. You have to be quick on the draw and put it away before they get agressive. It's like magic: healthy bees, copious amounts of honey produced, no winter losses. I tried to patent it: uric acid dribble. But the patent office did not think I was serious. For some reason I have a lot of surplus honey that does not sell....


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Sorry.... I could not resist


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## SWB (Aug 19, 2014)

JWPalmer said:


> Bill Hesbach posted a link to this paper on Bee-L yesterday. The research, conducted over a six year period of time, shows that spraying your hive with 100% cow urine can completely cure a hive of EFB and promote better overall hive health. Uh, anyone willing to give it a field trial here in the US? Squarepeg?
> 
> https://www.asianagrihistory.org/pdf/volume19/ruchira-tiwari.pdf


 I find this article quite interesting. I do have to wonder however if the cows which donated their urine for this study had been inoculated with antibiotics (or, anything else for that matter). If they have then a whole new study needs to be done as a 'control group' using cows which had never had any sort of medicine. My point is - the fact that it was 'cow urine', may be a total coincidence and the benefits were due to the antibiotics in the cow's system at the time the urine was collected.

Stephen B.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Amibusiness said:


> Sorry.... I could not resist


I get it, too strong an urge.


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## beesRus (Nov 15, 2018)

This thread reminds me of 2 intelligent people: My Grandma told me the best way to get rid of the bacterial infection impetigo on a baby is to, "Take his wet diaper and rub it around his mouth. That's what we did and it worked." She raised 9 healthy children without a pediatrician. The other was my doctor who said, in relation to infections entering the body via cuts in skin, "PEE IS CLEAN. Poop is dirty."

I still remember the look on each of their confused, gentle faces, "Why don't people get this? It's simple and all-natural."

So, below comments make sense to me, and support "GRANDMA'S PRESCRIPTION." 

Holcombe - "Cow urine contains nitrogen, sulphur, phosphate, sodium, manganese, iron, silicon, chlorine, magnesium, maleic, citric, tartaric and calcium salts, vitamin A, B, C, D, E, minerals, lactose, enzymes, creatinine, hormones and gold acids. Ingredients of cow urine are similar with human body. "

Nectarfeed - "Cow urine is used for bathing by some traditional pastoralist cattle herders like the Dinka, the Nuer, and the Mundari. The claim is that it fights infection. Urine carries excess minerals and salts out of the body in water that has been highly filtered by the kidneys. I can imagine that evolution has favored the production of anti-bacterial/anti-fungal urine because the urethra and bladder would otherwise be prone to even more infections then they get now."

kevvan - "There has always been that little nugget of training that comes and goes concerning bee forage for water and how they prefer urine and cow patties to plain water. .... Perhaps ... the bees know something we do not and they are hitting it for a biological need."

MSL - "you can grow 'organic' food in the other waste product cows produce " (plus, there are gardeners who add their human pee to their plant spray mixtures)

Amibusiness - Maybe you can invent and patent a special protection net to be worn during "application"? ... I couldn't resist.


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## SuiGeneris (Feb 13, 2018)

I'm both suspicious and unimpressed.

Unimpressed because the reported kill rates are not all that good - 8% or more bees remained infested post-treatment. In my apiary, I'd call that a failed treatment.

Suspicious, given the poor kill rates to thymol and formic acid. Again, if I treated with either of those and got the kill rates reported, I'd consider the treatment a failure and be asking my supplier for a refund...


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

"This thread reminds me of 2 intelligent people:" beesRus - I like your summary. If effective as a natural compound and readily available I doubt anyone would really invest in the development, approval and marketing cost. This problem is very similar to oxalic acid in this country as it is so ubiquitous and low cost as Wood Bleach. If I was backpacking and had no other resources I would certainly use my own urine to clean a wound. I have a barn, had animals and did not think about it much and never saw a problem with animal urine other than odor. I used lime to abate the issue and for clean up - all went into the garden to build soil out of gravel and yellow dirt. It is a very curious resource for which I have very limited knowledge.

I am also intrigued by the way bees hold their waste in winter and extract resources from it, etc. I read this somewhere while studying and researching honey bee & hive affects on water supply. I will have to find it again under "wintering poop & pee" or cleansing flight biology  

Maybe we need a pure non-profit honey bee research and product development organization for the benefit of backyard beekeeping. Commercial development by others could help support the organizations efforts. Universities do not seem to be able to "cut the mustard" anymore. Enough wandering for now


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

SWB said:


> I find this article quite interesting. I do have to wonder however if the cows which donated their urine for this study had been inoculated with antibiotics (or, anything else for that matter). If they have then a whole new study needs to be done as a 'control group' using cows which had never had any sort of medicine. My point is - the fact that it was 'cow urine', may be a total coincidence and the benefits were due to the antibiotics in the cow's system at the time the urine was collected.
> 
> Stephen B.


This connection could be very real. About 10 years ago a high percentage of the vultures in India were being wiped out by an anti lameness drug fed to cattle. Carcasses hauled to the fields were passing the drug on to the vultures who for some reason are vulnerable despite the fact that they are immune to many pathogens deadly to humans. The drug may have been ibuprofen but a person could easily search it up.

SuisGenersis post # 30 is also on target!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

SWB said:


> I find this article quite interesting. I do have to wonder however if the cows which donated their urine for this study had been inoculated with antibiotics (or, anything else for that matter). If they have then a whole new study needs to be done as a 'control group' using cows which had never had any sort of medicine. My point is - the fact that it was 'cow urine', may be a total coincidence and the benefits were due to the antibiotics in the cow's system at the time the urine was collected.
> 
> Stephen B.


I really doubt that any antibiotics were in use though in re-reading the study it does seem to be a bit of an oversight not to mention anything about the diet or sex (possible hormone content) or anything else about the animals that produced the urine other than the fact that the Desi breed was preferred.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

The reporting is very weak. The Desi is preferred Because? Easier to catch the pee maybe?
Still interesting even without an available cow. 
I know someone is going to offer ;"just 3 easy payments of $19.99 (plus shipping and handling)


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