# Small Hive Beetle



## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Do Small Hive Beatles fly?

I know the proliferate in sandy soils, and don't in clayey soils, so I was wondering if you could deter them from enter the hive by not giving them a way to craw up to the hive to begin with.

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Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me
"Do or not do, there is no try" ~ Master Yoda
BeeSourceFAQ: http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

I have been told they can fly as much as 30 miles


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The beetles fly. The larvae crawl out of the hive and fall on the soil and burrow in to pupate.


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## mike_c (Jul 8, 2003)

Is it true? This darn clay soil around here might serve a higher purpose than just providing poor drainage?


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Just exactly what would happen to the small hive beetle if you put all your hives on stands off the ground and fed chickens in the bee yard? 
Ox


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## briancady413 (Dec 8, 2003)

Oxankle, I like the run chickens under the hive stand idea. If a string of hives was on a long 2X8 hivestand, with chicken wire over the stand, but under the hives, and the hives had screen bottoms, the chickens could eat SHB and varroa mites, yet not get to healthy bees or get underfoot when opening hives. Unfortunately one couldn'tstraddle a hive's corner to lift a super, because the big stand and chicken run wire would interfere.

Maybe we could just spread a few inches of clay beneath a beeyard.

Brian Cady


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

My inclination is to provide a barrier under my hives (like the layer of clay described) to prevent the larvae from entering the soil. i suppose that is will be some plastic or mulching material. Haven't decided, and haven't heard that the beetles are bad here in N. Alabama (anyone know). I don't have and won't be getting chickens anytime soon, so this may be the next best method. 

It seems that SHB should be easier for us keepers to control than varroa, except they can fly 30 miles (was it?). If they can be kept from pupating under all of our managed hives, then only the wild pop of bees will be propagating them, right?


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I read an article somewhere (can't remember where--sorry) that someone placed hives on an abandoned airplane runway, so the SHB just crawled to the edge of the runway, pupated & flew back to the hives! We don't have them here yet, but this story hit me as really scary!


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

shb's one way I found that seems to have some merit and its free is too pour old burnt motor oil all over the surranding ground. works for me.I am running lot of nuc's thatare more prone to get them
Don


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The chickens might catch them before they get into the ground. They might not. My guess is they will get some but no where near all.

As for the barrier, they tell me the larvae will crawl a long distance to find the dirt. Perhaps 3" of sand on top of the plastic would lure them into the soil where the cold weather will later kill them. Otherwise I'm afraid they will just crawl to the edge.

How about a trap to catch them when they crawl out the entrance? It could be filled with water, FGMO or whatever to drown them.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

There was an article in the last ABJ. An elderly southern BK came up with a trap. Basically a pan filled with liquid to drown them.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

With all due respect, I find pouring new or used petroleum into the ground a disgusting practice. Sorry, not a personal attack, but my opinion.


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

scott if that's not acceptable what about all the roads that are covered with petrolium products.
and all the treated wood that is real poison to people?
untill we got a better way to control shb's I'll use what ever is working.
BUT THAT'S MY OPION==DON


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## Frohnho (Feb 17, 2002)

Dumping waste oil on the ground as a form of waste disposal is not a good idea, However dumping waste oil on the ground as a form of pest control is recycling. I would never put oil on the ground only because I would end up tracking it into my house, then the real trouble would start. Wife would KILL me !!!


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Dumping used oil on the ground may be a good idea for pest management, but it's a bad idea for the following reasons:

1. Run-off will contaminate streams, lakes, and more importantly your well water if you have a well. Even a deep one, say 1000 feet.

2. It is estimated that 1 quart of motor oil can contaminate 250,000 gallons of drinking water. 

3. While it is true there are many petroleum products used to pave roads, most, if not all, are made to remain solid under high heat conditions and not drain off. The primary example being tar. Tar may become soft and gooey, but it doesn't tend to enter the storm drains. Still, I advise against licking your driveway. 

4. Used motor oil isn't just "oil". It contains many other toxic compounds, such as the dreaded "PCB". *shiver* 

5. Several congressional acts, (Toxic Substances Control Act, Resource Conservation and Recovery Act) have made it illegal to improperly dispose of used motor oil in the US, punishable by a fine and/or jail time. Can you say "felony"? Don't worry, you are amongst friends. Send me all your medium drawn comb and I won't turn you in...(just kidding). 

Just do a search on line to be inundated with more information on this than you could possibly be interested in.


Kai


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Don,
Truly, I disclaimed personal attack because I truly meant it not to be. Just voicing my opinion of the practice, not your personal character, which in my estimation is a good character. I am not an extremist tree-hugger or anything, but I do my best to be environmentally conscious in all things when possible. Somethings really bother me, for instance I use my microwave oven, but I stay away from it while it's operating. It actually gives me genuine heebeegeebees to be near it.

The worst pollution I do I think is waste water from washing latex paint brushes and buckets. I don't spill raw paint out, but its almost impossible to contain the amount of waste water when one conscienciously washes their painting tools. Furthermore I am not a professional painter, I just paint my own house when needed.

Its just me, and I really was just giving my opinion of the action, not of you. I think you are a great guy from the little I know about you.

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Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me
"Do or not do, there is no try" ~ Master Yoda
BeeSourceFAQ: http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/ 

[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited February 23, 2004).]


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## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

Ive heard lots of ideas on barriers for SHB such as carpeting, shingles, tin. I think it might be like chickens.....maybe slow em down a touch but not stop em. SHB larvae can crawl 30 feet across the cement of a honey house floor in one evening. Theyll keep going until they die or find dirt.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Maybe something with a rim around it that they have to crawl up?

that's all the time I have,... have to go hug a tree and squeese the motor oil out of my well water.









wayacoyote


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2004)

I still smile to recall the book "The Zen 
of Motorcycle Maintaince", where the central
character of the story changed his oil,
and let the used oil drain onto the ground.

People have become aware of things that
simply did not seem "bad" way back when.

That said, most oils will continue to
spread out on calm water until the 
"oil slick" is a few molecules thick,
so even a thimble of oil can spread on
a calm lake to a very impressive size.

We had a truck blow a front-engine oil
seal when delivering packages to the
farm once, and the truck sat in our
driveway for a few days until it could
be towed away. A week later, a group
of men in full Haz-Mat suits showed up
without warning or any advance notice
to "clean up the toxic spill".

I told them that the suits were just a
tiny bit of overkill, given that the
"leaked" substance was mere 10W-40, but
they dug out the gravel, dug out the
dirt under the gravel, replaced each
with fresh materials that THEY had
brought with them, and drove away
with all the "contaminated" stuff in
orange bags.

That's how serious at least one trucking
company is about oil spills. I was
impressed.

I've seen the "SHB trap" as sold by Dadant,
and it looks pretty slick. In short, a
plastic pan that holds a propolis trap
in place, and holds cooking oil in the
pan. One slides in onto one's bottom
board. 

I'm hoping that SHB never gets to this
area, but the price of honey is eternal
inspection...


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Fellows, I'm with Fat Man on this one. The USDA directs catfish farmers to spray diesel mixed with 30w oil on breeding ponds to kill dragonfly larvae (which eat catfish fingerlings.) Soil bacteria will eventually eat motor oil, though it may take a while. Even today insecticides in many cases use oil as carriers. 

I can remember when a teaspoon of kerosene in sugar was considered "medicine". (Geez, how did so many country kids survive?)

The heavy metals and trace amounts of other contaminants in motor oil are of course NOT good for you if you eat or drink them, but in the amounts that get into us they are not a real hazard. 

What do you suppose happened to all the oil seeps around the world before the EPA came along? 

Don't get me wrong; I am well aware the potable water sands in many areas have been destroyed by seepage from unplugged and abandoned oil wells------That involves thousands of gallons of oil, not a few quarts or twenty gallons. I am also aware that if everyone dumped their used motor oil in the storm drain it all winds up in one place---not at all the same as spreading a few gallons on open ground where soil bacteria will eventually turn it into fertilizer. 
Ox


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

When I was a kid,my favorite trout stream(all native ,never stocked)always had an oil slick from natural petroleum seepage from the cracks in the rocks.Didnt even have to oil the pan to fry them(ok thats a lie).The Chumash Indians were known to have caulked their plank boats(ocean-going) with natural tar from that area.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Ox,
I'm sorry to have to correct you on this one. While it is true that at one time the USDA did recommend spraying aquaculture ponds with the diesel/oil mixture, this is no longer the case. The purpose of this old recommendation was to coat the surface of the pond in order to kill air breathing insects and larvae. The larvae would surface to breath, and not be able to because of the slick. Dragonfly larvae, which only prey on small fry catfish (<1 month old), are gill breathers and are able to draw oxygen directly from the water. The diesel/oil mixture had no affect on them. 

The USDA stopped recommending this procedure specifically because of the obvious negative environmental effects of spraying diesel and oil onto the ponds!

The current USDA recommendation is to first drain your catfish pond. Then, after 3 weeks refill it just before introducing your small fry catfish into the pond. Dragonfly larvae and catfish small fry grow at approximately the same rate, and any dragonfly larvae which hatch in the new water will not be big enough to prey on the small fry.

In addition, while there are indeed bacteria which consume motor oil, there are a variety of factors which make it highly unlikely that a quart of oil poured on the ground in will be eaten by bacteria. First, these bacteria do not exist everywhere at all times. That's why when they are used to clean up oil spills in a process called "bioremediation", the bacteria are almost always introduced to the site. Second, not all strains of oil-eating bacteria consume all types of oil, nor at the same rates. Third, even if you are lucky enough to have crude oil eating bacteria in your backyard, if it rains the day after you pour the oil on the ground, quite a bit of it is going to go where the rain went and your bacteria will miss dessert.

Kai


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## kmbruno (Mar 14, 2004)

ok you guys let's think this one out. Where do we get oil from? Mother nature is the best recycler we have.
No I do not pour chimicals out onto the ground or fertilze our water ways butI believe that this wonder earth is more forgiving and that a lot of people are making a lot of money filling us with fears.
The oil idea is great could you not dig a few inches down and lay down a barrier. Then cover the barrier with sand that has been treated with oil?


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Sure mother nature recycles everything. The problem is some things take aeons to be recycled, and for some things, the recycling happens in different stages and states. It took mother nature some millions of years to create crude oil, we refine it and dump it back. Mother nature needs time to figure out what to do with it. Don't forget as well that crude oil is created deep within bedrock pockets. It doesn't exist on the planet surface which is where we living things reside. Petroleum is disasterous to almost all living things and living envornments.

Sure mother nature recycles everything, but if it kills us all millions of years before the recycling is done, then I don't think it matters one iota for us, because we killed ourselves before she could do her magic.


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## beenoeth (Apr 1, 2003)

CHICKENS ARE OK BUT GUNIEA FOWL ARE THE KING OF BUG EATERS THEY ARE KNOWN FOR THE DEER TICK EATING TO KEEP LYME DISEASES DOWN AND THEY DONT DAMAGE THE VEGITATION LIKE CHIX DO


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

Chickens destroy vegetation. When we had them the only things that grew in the chicken run were stinging nettles and Jerusalem artichokes; everything else was devoured.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Mine ate the stinging nettles too.







And it was full of them when I first put them in the chicken yard.


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Kai:

The USDA had to stop suggesting that we use diesel and oil because it was politically incorrect, period. A quart of oil and a gallon of diesel will treat a very large pond. Within hours most of it is evaporated and within a day or two at most there is no trace of the oil. 

I will not dispute you on the dragon fly larvae; I would have to fish out my old texts and there are other fish to fry--you are undoubtedly correct. However, not all of us can drain our ponds. We have to poison them and start over after we seine our breeders. 

You will not find the USDA suggesting that we poison the ponds with malathion, either, but it is done. On the fourth day it is gone but the sunfish are dead. 

Beenoeth: Guineas are champion but eaters, but if we want the hive beetle larvae to be eaten it is better to have a chicken willing to to strip all the shrubbery away so that he can spot the bugs crawling. 

I have never had problems with my chickens eating bees, but I have had a chicken or two in shock from beestings. I think that placing bees in a pen of chickens might very well help with the beetle problem. I'd just put them bees up high enough that the chickens can run under the hives, probably twelve or fourteen inches high. Of course you could never ever set a super on the ground again. 

The more I think of this idea the less I like it.
Ox
Ox


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## beehaven (Jan 28, 2004)

I recently attended a beekeeping symposium at Auburn University. Information put out there said that beetle larva have been found as far away as 150 ft. from the hive. I cant imagine that Guardstar or motor oil is really a viable answer. Just thinking out loud here but how many of us have watched contentedly while our bees struggle out the front door with; shredded news print, dead bees, dead larva,... what if our bees are actually capturing the shb larva and giving them a first class trip well away from the hive and droping them right where they wanted to be in the first place?


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## beehaven (Jan 28, 2004)

I actually have designed and but a prototype of a larva trap that is intended to intercept larva before they can make it to the ground. The results have been a little disappointing.It seems impossible to me that these larva could somehow be "intelligently" circumventing this trap on their own. Perhaps the much desired trait of our bees to clean up after themselves is one more strike against us in the battle with these buggers.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

I have designed my top bar hives in such a way that the larvae would have to crawl up an inverted slope in order to crawl down a leg of the hive. Therefore I am hoping their only choice is to fall off of the end of the bottom board at the entrance. I am hanging buckets under the entrance of the hives and will fill a few inches of the bucket with some sort of oil, whether FGMO or olive oil or what I don't know yet, but that's my plan so far when I discover SHB in my hives.

------------------
Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me
"Do or not do, there is no try" ~ Master Yoda
BeeSourceFAQ: http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/


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## beehaven (Jan 28, 2004)

The symposium I attended had one of the top guys with the state of Florida Ag, Dept. as a guest speaker. I caught him outside during a break and asked him about mineral oil fogging and he told me ( for Varrora mites) that the mineral oil had some knock down effect but that they simply recooperated and dispersed to the bees again.The shb trap I built has caught on average about 25 adult mites per day and about 3 adult shb per day and in a week and a half it has only caught one shb larva.I am pleased that the trap is catching mites and adult beetles ( I assume trying to enter the hive) but only one larva. I had speculated that the trap would be catching many if not hundreds of shb larva on this particular hive since the adjacent hive had prepared to swarm due to massive shb infestation. I replaced all frames and did a "shook swarm" to remedy that hive. I have not installed a trap on that hive yet since I need a control group to compare results to.I am still preplexed as to why I am not catching the shb larva.


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

I had heard that nematodes would help control the SHB in the same way that they are used to control grubs in the lawn. I treated my lawn, garden and beeyard with the 1.5 years ago and it is about time to reapply.

I cannot get my chickens to hang out under the bee hives. And I believe if there were enough SHBs to attract the chickens, I would need alternate treatment plans. 

Maybe someone can come up with something to add to the FGMO for control of SHB!


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## beehaven (Jan 28, 2004)

I am assuming that when we talk about using fgmo that we are talking about fogging with food grade mineral oil? I am using it in the trap I have made to ensure things dont make it out of the trap.


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## BEEMAN22 (May 20, 2004)

ITS FUNNY HOW THIS PAGE WENT FROM TALKING ABOUT BEETLES TO MOTOR OIL. WHY DONT YALL FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO AN OIL CHANGE ON YOUR HIVES HE HE HE HE.


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

Beehaven - you may not be catching any larva because the bees are beating you to it and cleaning them out themselves. Whether or not the bees sting and kill the larva prior to removal, I don't know.

I had hundreds of SHB larva in recently hived packages that fell through the screened bottom board where I could dispose of them. There wasn't any sign of SHB in the hive itself. If not for the SBB, they may have overrun the hive.

That was a month ago, and while I see an adult SHB here and there, there are no signs of infestation anywhere in the hives.

Given all that, I'm really starting to question the notion that SHB can run bees out of healthy hives. I think they only take over when a hive is weakened for some other reason -- newly hived packages are weak by definition.


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