# Newbee at this whole bee thing with a question



## fatboy95 (Feb 20, 2015)

I have read about bees for over the last year and finally decided this year I am going to do it.. pretty excited about it. My plan was to make two top bar hives.. I have plenty of skills to make that happen. The issue is I have had a hard time trying to find bees.. until yesterday.. I found a guy that has them near me but only sell them in NUC form.. I have not had any luck finding package bees.. everyone I have called is sold out.. and I made a bunch of calls last Friday.. so this leaves me buying a NUC.

I have my mind set on the TBH.. I just like everything I have read about it.. My question to you all is what is going to be my best option to get the bees from the NUC form to the TBH.. now I have read a few sights that said buy package bees.. but I refer to my early comment.. no luck finding any.

Thanks for any input.
fatboy!


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

well if the nuc is on wax foundation there is always a chop n crop.....of course it's easier if the top of your box is the same with as a lang so you don't have to add the extra bar as seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW5VIOMwVNU

another video of chop n crop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVQ1et2OR50


And if a comb flops out or breaks off have a few bars like is seen in this video He goes by PatBeek here He uses basically rabit cage wire mounted to the bars and stabs comb from cut outs on them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImrDXFeZqU8


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

First of all, let me Welcome you to Beesource!

As for your question. There's a few different methods of getting your bees into your hives. I'll outline the ones that i've seen done most.

1. Scrap the thought of the Top Bar Hive and go with a Long Lang hive instead. All the joys of the top bar with all the ease of the Lang.
2. Do what is called a "Crop and Chop" on the lang frames. In essence you cut down the sides of the comb after removing the wood sides and bottoms. Then attach the top bar of your TBH to the frame top with a couple screws.
3. Build a temporary Top Bar style super for your NUC box and allow the bees to move up in it naturally. Once the queen is in the upper box with lots of brood, put a queen excluder between the two and allow the bees to finish emerging from the lower, then move those new Top Bar frames into your actual permanent ToP Bar Hive.

Out of the two actual Top Bar methods, the Crop and Chop is the one i've seen done the most.

Hope that helps!


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## bobsim (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm new also and have a package on order for delivery sometime late March. I finished building my TBH a couple of weeks ago and had it 'airing out' in the backyard. 

I came across an ad on Craigslist for a NUC and just couldn't resist it. I watched some videos and felt comfortable with the crop and chop (my NUC had plastic foundation.) 

I set up a work table next to the hive, made a pattern from a follower board and got out the oscillating saw. Once I had the combs cut I drilled through the plastic foundation and the triangular guide on the top bars then wired them together with some copper wire. A bucket of water and some rags came in very handy. 

Yesterday was the first warm day we've had since I did the install and I had my hopes up when I checked the bees, they had managed to start a trace of new comb and were very active so I put out the comb scraps from the install for them to clean, two hours of 'bee blizzard' later all was clean.

The videos I saw showed chopping the lang frames with a lopper but I just cut inside of them and left them whole. Now I have a good colony and a spare NUC box with frames.

The process wasn't bad and went smoothly after the first frame, considering it was my first venture in beekeeping. I have to give the bees credit too for their patience, very gentle rascals.

Now I have another hive to build before the package arrives!

Hope that helps.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Another option would be to make up some swarm traps. If there are any bees around where you live, if you put up 5 or 6 traps, it's pretty likely you'll catch a swarm or two. The odds would go up further if you did a work to confirm the presence of some wild bees, but that would not be necessary. 
Your mileage may vary, but I've had over a 50% success rate for my swarm traps.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

neal


> The odds would go up further if you did a work to confirm the presence of some wild bees, but that would not be necessary.


I also am new and have six medium hive boxes with skirts on them to make them about the size of a deep. This is my swarm trap so far. 

What did you mean by the statement "if you did a work"?

I have not been able to make myself buy a package or nuc yet cause I am a cheep butt and also am trying to get something from closer to home. 

I have seen bees working the flowers where I will trap. What were you talking about, cause I would like to increase my odds of success.
Thank you
gww


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

The "did a work" should have read "did work." Basically, you could do a little bee-lining to see what's out there. Tracing the bees back to a location takes some skill, but you could put out some honey on a nice day to see if you can attract some honey bees. If you can't attract bees with honey, then there are likely not any bees out there to trap. It is very likely that you will attract some bees, and, if you work at it, you can follow them back to where they started. Back in the day, that's how people would find and rob wild hives.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Neil
Thank you for the explination. I think I read one time that you could throw white flower on a bee to make it stand out more but I may have dreamed this. I am reading so much I some times remember made up things. Your ideal is good and I think I will try it the next warm day and see what happens. I will have to use bought honey so I hope I don't give them some weird disease or something.
Good ideal to try.
gww


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## fatboy95 (Feb 20, 2015)

First of all I want to thank everyone for taking the time to welcome me and respond to my question... 

I will have to think about all my option and pray the Lord gives me the skill to accomplish what is the best of them for me... 

Originally I was going to make it so I can put the NUC on top of my hive so the bees would move down.. but it does make more sense to put the box below I suppose to have them go up.. 

I may just do the chop and crop.. When I pick up my bees I will see how they are temperament wise.. which will have the biggest impact on how I do it..

Now as far as capture a swarm.. it is very highly likely in my area.. when spring hits I don't mow my yard for over a month to allow for the little wild flowers grow up and have bees all over my yard.. it may sound weird but I enjoy going out laying in the yard and watching them do their work.. I have always enjoyed watching bees. I have thought about this.. and may do that to.. 

Again.. thanks for all the advice.. I will review all videos and post which are a huge help to me.

fatboy!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The typical "chop and crop" you see on youtube is unrealistic. You may buy a nuc and it may be on plastic frames, or plastic foundation, or wired wax with both vertical and horizontal wires. All of these may interfere with your "chop and crop" plans in very difficult and hard to predict (since you probably won't know what they are on until you get the nuc) ways. Also the "chop and crop" videos are being done by people who are experts. If you are a beginner, you are not an expert. I would not want to take that on as my first beekeeping undertaking. Besides that you're wasting a lot of comb that you paid good money for. I'd either buy a package or build a long Langstroth hive and then make yourself some top bars for it. You can mix top bars and frames if the dimensions are right.


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## fatboy95 (Feb 20, 2015)

Would it be an issue if I was to make the box square instead of having angled sides? I have not seen anything posted going either way with this.. that would ultimately solve my issue at this point with the NUC.. as I have already committed to purchasing it from the gentlemen on beesforums.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!

I'd suggest that you review the 'long Langstroth' AKA _horizontal hive _that Michael mentioned in post #10 - see this page: http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm

You can put the nuc frames directly in the hive - no chopping - and you could also choose to use simple top bars along side the nuc frames.

Personally, rather than plain top bars, I'd suggest complete frames, but you could choose to make those _foundationless _frames.

There are quite a few benefits to having combs that can be exchanged with other beekeepers, or even exchanged with standard Lang style hives of your own if you later decide to try that.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

fatboy95 said:


> Would it be an issue if I was to make the box square instead of having angled sides? I have not seen anything posted going either way with this.. that would ultimately solve my issue at this point with the NUC.. as I have already committed to purchasing it from the gentlemen on beesforums.


That is basically what they were telling you about when they recomended long lang hive. It's kinda the best of both worlds between a TBH and traditional lang. You have the horizontal layout without having to lift heavy boxes ( one of main benifits of TBH) and you have the ability to use frames for comb stability ( one of main benifits of standard lang)


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## fatboy95 (Feb 20, 2015)

Awesome.. thank you again... I am going with the Long Lang then.. I am pretty excited about all this.. We are working on setting ourselves up to be as self sufficient as possible. 

Building a chicken coop right now for my wife.. been cutting trees down as weather permits to make room for a orchard in the back yard.. feed the bees and us.. maybe sell a few at market when we are producing good.. and also have a pretty good size garden.. I sure enjoy all this...


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Fatboy



> Awesome.. thank you again... I am going with the Long Lang then.. I am pretty excited about all this.. We are working on setting ourselves up to be as self sufficient as possible.
> 
> Building a chicken coop right now for my wife.. been cutting trees down as weather permits to make room for a orchard in the back yard.. feed the bees and us.. maybe sell a few at market when we are producing good.. and also have a pretty good size garden.. I sure enjoy all this...


I can't tell you how it works yet cause I don't have bees yet. I built a long hive the exact size of a lang. hive medium. It will take about 32 medium frames the same as you use in a lang. I made the frames foudationless and put a top interance on one end. I got most of my ideals off of michael bush's website. I also have chickens and planted 15 more fruit trees last summer. I planted tomato, zuccini and pepper seeds yesterday to get them ready for april. I don't get enough energy anymore to get pumped but am just going to keep plugging away. 

I am glad you are also enjoying yourself and want to thank you for letting me interject my question earlier into your thread.
gww

PS one thing about the medium hive is you still have to think about ways of using nucs and such in them.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

gww said:


> Neil
> I will have to use bought honey so I hope I don't give them some weird disease or something.
> gww


Don't. Better to use syrup if you don't know the provenance of the honey even though I'm sure it's not as attractive. Lordy knows what's in store honey and it'd be a shame to introduce afb into your neighborhood if it wasn't already there.

Don't forget to advertise on craigslist, put up notices at the store, laundromat, whatever, call pest people and get on their list, etc. I've got two boxes out in case my bees decide to split, but there were virtually no bees in the 'hood before I brought these home and my chances of catching a wild swarm in one of my boxes is probably pretty close to nill.

Swarm chasing is pure god approved fun. ;-)


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## fatboy95 (Feb 20, 2015)

Here's my thought after looking at all the links and reading through the comments... I am going to build a top bar hive using the lang style box.. something like a hive body so it will take my NUC.. and add in foundationless frames for them to continue the colony... then have the rest of it setup as supers.. I was planning on making it 6 feet long and 21 1/4" wide. I probably will use sketch up to draw it up.. given I have the time.


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## fatboy95 (Feb 20, 2015)

Not sure if this has been posted.. but I like this idea best.. http://www.beebehavior.com/modified_european_long_hive.php


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

aps


> Don't. Better to use syrup if you don't know the provenance of the honey even though I'm sure it's not as attractive. Lordy knows what's in store honey and it'd be a shame to introduce afb into your neighborhood if it wasn't already there.


Thanks for the comment

Fatboy



> I was planning on making it 6 feet long and 21 1/4" wide


I don't know anything and am trying to learn. I thought I would mention that Micheal bushes web site mentions that a hive longer then 5' would not "all" be used by the bees. 
Good luck
gww


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I was planning on making it 6 feet long and 21 1/4" wide

Anything over 5 feet long is just waste. The bees seldom will expand past 5 feet. Anything wider than 19" serves no purpose and will be harder to keep them from curving to where they are not on the bar anymore. I would only do 19" because it's the length of a Langstroth. Otherwise I'd make them 15" to make them easier to keep them on the bars. When Brother Adam went all over the world looking for genetics for his breeding program he made note of the hives he saw and 5 foot was the longest horizontal hive he saw. I find 4 feet to be fine and even then you have to put some effort into getting them to use it all. Wyatt Magnum's TBH's are a maximum of 5 feet. That seems to be the world wide consensus of maximum useful length by those who have run horizontal hives. Optimum may be closer to 4 feet...


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

My Neighbor built his TBH about 22 inches wide and maybe 15 or 16 inches deep. The bees lived for 2-3 years TF and with very little management on his part. He framed all of the bars. In my opinion it was very cumbersome to work the hive as the arms tired quickly just hold up the bars. I think my Neighbor would agree. He also built it out of Brazilian Cherry which is very heavy and it require 2 stronger people just to move it. I would agree that 4 ft is a good length.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

fatboy95 said:


> Not sure if this has been posted.. but I like this idea best.. http://www.beebehavior.com/modified_european_long_hive.php


Those are beautiful, but it looks like it'd be a bear prying the bars out of the insets. 

I like my bars hanging on the hive sides, so easy to deal with. But it's causing me a bit of consternation fitting a hinged roof with just a topbar gap entrance. I'll figure it out eventually.


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