# EFB



## mybodyisatemple76 (Jul 30, 2017)

Hey first year beekeeper and first post on here I have a hive that Im pretty sure has efb is there anything I can do this late in the season it's been cold here past few weeks it's been highs in low fifty's and raining for last two weeks been up in low sixty's and a little sunshine today so I got a chance to go into that Hive agian to get a better look thought it was afb at first but then looked into it more and seems like all signs of efb no roping with match stix test im in East Tennessee area so weather is starting to get down in thirty every night and highs next week will be in low to mid fourtys so what can I do this late in the season if anything p.s. I treated for mites with oav in early fall and hit some of ones that still had high mite counts with three rounds in early October


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It is not enough! I mean after the oav treatment in Oct., what is 
your current mite count?

On my 3rd year I had the same EFB situation that you described. Thinking it was
AFB (wrong diagnosis) 22 drawn comb and lots of broods got thrown away. Suffered a
heavy lost that took me a few seasons to get back to normal again. Following the mainstream of beekeeping, what beekeepers call the norm of doing things, just like you now did not keep my bees safe or continue flourishing over the winter.

Now I learned that it was the PMS. The mites will infect the broods causing a
EFB situation on a reduced brood nest around this time. The cold temp also might cause a chilled brood situation that the developing larvae died out. This will result in a situation similar to the EFB diagnosis. It is really hard to tell them apart until you send the EFB sample to the bee lab to find out. Bees will be in cluster mode around 40F that might cause a false diagnosis similar to the EFB when the larvae got chilled. So are there enough bees to cover the developing larvae at night time? Have you completely removed the mites (zero mites) so that the hive will have a clean environment to grow the big fat winter bees?

Welcome to Bee Source!


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## mybodyisatemple76 (Jul 30, 2017)

I haven't done a sugar roll on then since first few weeks of October before I did the three rounds in three weeks of oav on this hive so I treated once in August once in September and three times in October on this hive and hit it one more time last week so a total of six oav treatments on this hive so seems like I went over kill with oav unless it just doesn't work that good I do have screened bottom board on this hive but I try to seal it up really good when I use oav there doesn't seem to be alot of vapor coming out screen bottom I found some pics on internet that looks like what I saw yesterday I wish I had a good camera so I could take a pic of my hive but I never could get a clear pic with my phone but this is what I saw especially the top pic of flat larva when I looked a when I looked at pattern of eggs where queen had just layed fresh eggs was sold pattern then by time they but real absence of those big white grubs then be scaterted brood pattern on caped brood so she is laying good just dying or getting pulled out I guess so idk could still be mites tho but seems like overkill with oav to me so do u think I need to treat again??


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Welcome.

I think mites. OAV in hives with brood seems, in my experience, to give inconsistent results. Once a month (August and September) will certainly not do you much good. Once a week in October…is too little, too late. By then your hives are populated with heavily parasitized, sickly winter bees. At that point no amount of any treatment can fix those sick bees. 
Sorry.


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## mybodyisatemple76 (Jul 30, 2017)

So should I give all the other hives I have that look good another treatment of oav this month seems a bit extreme to use chemical that much almost unsafe and irresponsible to use that much and often with any chemical I wouldn't think they would advise that often and many times I wanna keep my bees alive but seems like treating that much is not the answer maybe next year will try something besides oav what is everyone else doing that seems to time consuming unless you have five hives to use oav that often so what are these people with over a couple hundred or a thosand hives doing to treat cuz that seems like they wouldn't have time to do it that often


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

mybodyisatemple76 said:


> I wanna keep my bees alive but seems like treating that much is not the answer maybe next year will try something besides oav ……… so what are these people with over a couple hundred or a thosand hives doing to treat cuz that seems like they wouldn't have time to do it that often


I think most of the commercial beekeepers are spending whatever labor and expense are necessary to keep their bees healthy. I believe that very few are using oav. 
I believe that many are using Amitraz based treatments. Amitraz is a synthetic compound. From the first part of your reply….I doubt if you would want to use Amitraz.
You may want to investigate local sources of bees with various hygienic behaviors such as varroa sensitive hygiene (vsh). No matter what you choose to do, learning to do objective mite testing will be important if you hope to keep bees successfully.

Finding a local mentor or attending beekeepers' meetings will help you find what folks locally do.

Good luck.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource! 

OAV (oxalic vaporization) only affects the varroa that are not in capped brood cells. So if you OAV a hive with capped brood, then the mites that are in those capped cells (_reproducing_, by the way) are still viable once the bee pupa in the cell emerges.

That is why a series of OAV treatments about 5 days apart is recommended for hives with brood - you want to get as many as possible of the varroa that were missed in the 1st round with the 2nd round, and similarly with the 3rd round. The timing is a function of the total length of time that it takes for all the bee pupa in capped cells to emerge.

There are alternative varroa treatments that _do_ kill mites inside capped cells, if that is the way you wish to go. One treatment is sufficient, and it lasts a longer time. MAQS is one possibility for that: http://nodglobal.com/faq-maqs/

However, just because you are applying one dose rather than 3 does not mean that the overall effect on the bees is less (or more) harsh. It all depends on, at a minimum, the substance, timing, following directions, and sometimes temperature.


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## mybodyisatemple76 (Jul 30, 2017)

Here are the exact dates I used oav on this hive I don't think I was being neglecting these bees 8/20 8/29 9/7 9/29 10/6 10/13 and then fist week of November didn't write that date down that seems like that should be enough but I guess not and yes I am trying to find some more resistant stock I got some queens from bush and am building some swarm traps for next year im not gonna buy a package again


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## mybodyisatemple76 (Jul 30, 2017)

And reason it's not exactly five or seven days apart between treatments is because of hours I work or pouring rain sometimes didn't give me chance to do it exactly when I wanted to


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Use apivar strips and follow direction for now.
Oav will work better one week approaching the new bee emergence cycle. To use oav
effectively you have to time it with the bee emergence cycle. If you stop after the 2nd treatment while
there are still cap broods then it will not work that well. Because the mites are still inside the last cap
brood frames that you did not follow through with the 3rd treatment. If you don't want to use that much
chemical then consider the constant mite removal management (IPM) method that I've posted here. Even with
2 hives you can do it. On rainy days use an umbrella or set up a beach umbrella stand to IPM the hives. I use a
10x10 party tent all season long with all my hives in it. The EFB diagnosis is kinda ropy when you pull it out. The AFB is dark and
ropy looking too. Not sure if it is AFB or not?


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

EFB is usually a spring and summer disease. Mites are usually a fall and winter disease. But either can crash a hive at any time of the year. 

I would take a sample of your ropy larva and send it to the lab it's free, they will check for both AFB and EFB. it takes about two week if they are not busy. It will give you peace of mind when reusing equipment. EFB contaminated equipment will remain infectious for at least 1.5 years and longer in pollen stores. 

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=7458


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't know you area. But when the mites crashed my hives 3 
seasons ago, it was during the early Spring build up. Our mites did not
rest all winter long when they infected the broods. The situation
look like EFB. So it could be a false EFB when the mites are infecting
the broods at any given time in the season.


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