# What happens if small cell foundation gets mixed with regular cell.



## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

What happens if small cell foundation gets mixed with regular cell.Will the queen be able to adjust. Also is there any truth to the belief that some of the queens cannot fit their body into small cell comb to lay. Thanks.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

You'll get some different sized workers. Neither they nor the queen will notice .


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I've not yet seen any, good queen, have trouble laying in any cell she wanted to lay in.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

As Joseph said, queens are able to constrict their abdomen down to fit the cell, no matter the queen size.


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

As mentioned, I don't believe the queen will matter. Unless you start with all small cell, there's not any method of 'regression' down to small cell with some mixture to start with. I'd originally started with all foundation, but quickly migrated to natural cell size by utilizing 'strips' and other methods and allowing the bees to create their own foundation - whichever size they wanted. Not whenever I start a hive, I usually start with 'some' already drawn foundation (usually drawn naturally by the bees from other hives) and allow them to drawn down and build their own sizes. In fact, this is all I use in my 'brood' boxes now. I've also been able to save some $$ using this method also. Whenever you get into frames that actually go into the supers, that can be tricky but there's allot of other discussional information around here for you to read up on.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What happens if small cell foundation gets mixed with regular cell.

You get two different sized workers.

>Will the queen be able to adjust.

Yes.

>Also is there any truth to the belief that some of the queens cannot fit their body into small cell comb to lay. 

In 12 years of small cell and most of that with 200 hives, I've seen it once. They superseded her shortly after. I think there may have been something wrong with her that she was so fat. It may not just be that she didn't fit in the cell, there may have been other reproductive issues the kept her from laying well and that caused her to be superseded.


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## mignolan (Nov 19, 2009)

Wouldn't there be a concern that mixed brood cell sizes would undermine the presumed benefits of sc beekeeping? One example might include a longer brood timeframe, which would provide more opportunity for Varroa, no? I introduce lc or foundationless frames only as outer frames on upper supers, where there's less chance for them to be used for brood.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Not really, since the only reason I'm using small-cell and natural comb, is because it's out of the ordinary, any possible other effects, beneficial or otherwise, are strictly coincidental. Also, my homemade foundationless frames, cost less than $0.25/each, and the labor to make them is therapeutic. They also use no foundation (which further lowers their actual cost).

Though, as you describe, I manipulate/manage any large cell/drone combs, to reduce drone production or stimulate drone production, as circumstances dictate. I only seem to be able to get nearly full medium frames of drone brood, when I place an empty drone comb in the heart of the brood nest.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Wouldn't there be a concern that mixed brood cell sizes would undermine the presumed benefits of sc beekeeping?

Sure. But that wasn't the question. I would pull the large cell out and not use it...


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## CessnaGirl (Jan 7, 2014)

I've been using small cell but after doing research (thanks Michael Bush), I started using foundationless. The first foundationless frame I stuck in a hive was my biggest hive. I was curious if they would build it out or ignore it. They promptly made a frame of all DRONE comb. Geez!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

CessnaGirl said:


> They promptly made a frame of all DRONE comb.


With that data, I'd expect that about 99% of the time.


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## beeman2009 (Aug 23, 2012)

> They promptly made a frame of all DRONE comb.


May I ask where you put the foundationless frame? Was it on the outside edge or between 2 brood frames in the center of the box?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Then I would move the drone comb to the outside edge and add another frame. They will likely build at least two combs of all drone if they have very little drone comb. Then they will build worker cells.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

CessnaGirl said:


> I've been using small cell but after doing research (thanks Michael Bush), I started using foundationless. The first foundationless frame I stuck in a hive was my biggest hive. I was curious if they would build it out or ignore it. They promptly made a frame of all DRONE comb. Geez!


It depends on what they need at what time of the year. If they needed drones at that time there will be more drone made on that frame. Usually it is a mix.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Placed in a normal conventional hive filled with normal worker sized foundation and comb, a foundationless frame is almost always going to result in a frame full of drone regardless of placement or date. Like other aspects of beekeeping and especially treatment-free beekeeping, it's best whole-hog or not at all.

When I do it it is usually to get drone comb out of the deal.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

What Solomon says, you put a foundationless frame in a hive on foundation, it will most likely end up all drone comb. Just move it to the outside for honey storage when it's capped drones. If you keep adding over time it'll get there after a couple frames to worker size comb.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Ben Brewcat said:


> You'll get some different sized workers.


I doubt it. I have hives on 4.9mm cells. But the workers are not any smaller than workers from other hives. I have seen smaller bees in Spring and late summer, but never seen a difference between workers from a large cell hive and a small cell hive. 

Has anyone done any measurements or is this proven somehow? I reckon cell size doesn't matter - workers do have the same size if properly nourished. (Me thinks it nourishment which decreases/increases size, and this is how size is seasonal...)

You see smaller bees in varroa damaged hives, though. Again, size shrinks because of failed nourishment because the mites suck out the larvae. 

Weight and size of the bees were the same in my apiaries, both smaller and normal sized cells. Other small cell beekeepers in Germany do state the same.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I doubt it. I have hives on 4.9mm cells. But the workers are not any smaller than workers from other hives. I have seen smaller bees in Spring and late summer, but never seen a difference between workers from a large cell hive and a small cell hive. 

I disagree. People are often invited to my apiary for beekeeping meetings etc. They all notice my bees are much smaller and often ask about it. Now a bee that is foraging is larger than one that is not as it stretches its abdomen when it fills it with honey.

>Has anyone done any measurements or is this proven somehow?

Baudoux. His measurements are in most of the old ABC XYZ of Bee Culture from the turn of the Century until at least the 40s. I don't have any from the 50s to the 60's so I don't know if they are in those editions or not but I have some older ones and they are and some newer ones and they are not.

But they are reproduced here:
http://www.beesource.com/files/lusby-influence-cell-size-3.jpg


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

So two different observations here. In my apiary the bees on 4.9 mm cells are definitely not smaller. I have Buckfast and Carnicas in those hive, do you know the kind of bees that you use? Do you use small cell foundation or plain natural comb?

Might be an interesting detail here.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I doubt it. I have hives on 4.9mm cells. But the workers are not any smaller than workers from other hives. I have seen smaller bees in Spring and late summer, but never seen a difference between workers from a large cell hive and a small cell hive.


I catch a lot of feral swarms and here I notice a difference in size from managed bee swarms right off. 

Mark would say it's antidotal evidence but I would argue 99.9% of all knowledge is.


Don


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have a mixture of natural comb and small cell. About half and half. I see the same with both.


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## Duncan Thacker (Feb 4, 2014)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I doubt it. I have hives on 4.9mm cells. But the workers are not any smaller than workers from other hives. I have seen smaller bees in Spring and late summer, but never seen a difference between workers from a large cell hive and a small cell hive.
> 
> Has anyone done any measurements or is this proven somehow? I reckon cell size doesn't matter - workers do have the same size if properly nourished. (Me thinks it nourishment which decreases/increases size, and this is how size is seasonal...)
> 
> ...


Grüße Gott, Bernhard wie geht es Ihnen? 

Its been a long time since we spoke. private message me for clarification. I noticed the seasonal changes in my TBH hives in Bavaria. No foundation whatsoever I DID measure it using the standards outlined by Mike here. I had cell sizes in the worker brood anywhere from 4.2 up to 5.1 and in the drone brood 6.0 to 6.3. The ONLY facts I did prove to myself was my hives with NO foundation did better and overwintered better than any beek around me using foundation ( every other household in Bavaria has hives so there are tons to compare to) and they were using OA. The other fact was that I could not read the collective minds of the bees in my hives so I let them build their own environment and adjusted my methods rather than try to force them to adjust to mine  Remember this (foundation) was the biggest mistake Langstroth made and it is still continues in the name of profit today. Cell size MATTERS to the bees for reasons that today still escape us, but then what we know about Mother Nature is only enough to scratch the surface. 

Not to proud to learn from the bees!!!!!


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Mark would say it's antidotal evidence but I would argue 99.9% of all knowledge is.


I think you mean "anecdotal", this post is anecdotal meaning it is what I observed but have not proven.

My bees are smaller today than they were 8 years ago. I attribute this to using small cell which seems to favor bees that develop in fewer days and are adapted to growing in the smaller cells. I would estimate the size difference is about 10%.

When I did the bee tree cutout a couple of weeks ago, I measured the comb at 4.95 to 5.1. These bees were from a swarm out of my colonies a few years ago. The queen was noticeably smaller with more tapered abdomen than queens I purchased 30 years ago.


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## Duncan Thacker (Feb 4, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> My bees are smaller today than they were 8 years ago. I attribute this to using small cell which seems to favor bees that develop in fewer days and are adapted to growing in the smaller cells. I would estimate the size difference is about 10%.
> 
> When I did the bee tree cutout a couple of weeks ago, I measured the comb at 4.95 to 5.1. These bees were from a swarm out of my colonies a few years ago. The queen was noticeably smaller with more tapered abdomen than queens I purchased 30 years ago.


Langstroth theorized Larger cells meant bigger bees which could make more honey and for the longest time the introduction of larger cell foundation did not stress the colony to a point it caused damage. Time marched on and the environmental (mites to name just one) and man made (pesticides, GMO's) stresses piled up. The balance in Nature of what a colony could tolerate eventually shifted (as happened to most species that disappeared off the face of the earth) and colonies began to collapse under the pressure. Now history will repeat itself the same way the only difference is the tool used to do the damage has been slightly altered, the mistake is the same and will have the same results in the long run. Humans are inherently driven to repeat history.

I saw regression in progress, if you want to see it too shake a hive (foundationless) each spring let your queens breed with local mongrels the ones surviving year after year in the wild or raise your own. measure the cell sizes throughout the colony and watch its amazing and fun!!!! Remember changes in Nature don't come overnight ....if your lucky!!!!!!

Listen to the bees, read them, they have a ton to teach and just have fun!!!!!!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The size difference, according to Baudoux is that the large cell bee is 157% the size of a small cell bee. This is in volume, not length. That is consistent with my observations though I have not attempted to measure it.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnatural...tm#baudoux1893
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#combwidth

When you increase the cell diameter from what Baudoux thought was natural (4.7mm) to what he thought was optimum (5.555mm) the bees also increase the depth from 20.20mm to 22.60mm thus the VOLUME of the cell increases by approximately 160% from 192 cubic mm to 301 cubic mm (157%).


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## Duncan Thacker (Feb 4, 2014)

Mike
Regardless of the technical measurements which can still be summed up as Large and Small. The theory still remains the same. Bigger cells more room/time for mites to breed more offspring. Explains the preference for drone brood. Cell size directly affects the mite load. High mite loads kill a colony. Colonies can withstand mites below the threshold. At least that was the basis for the Lusby's rush to produce small cell foundation and it was working GREAT in AZ.( give some credit to hygienic/aggressive Africanized bees). This we all know to be true.

Carry the small cell theory to the end and you will find foundationless colonies. 

What does it hurt to try something that requires no expense and is a manipulation that's rather easy. That answer is easy....hobby beeks cannot look at a hive and not do one of several things.

1. open it, mess with it.
2. stare at it....some may even get a lawn chair and a beer or two.
3. see something that needs to be modified and run to the wood shop.

I was more mesmerized by a hive than I was by the TV, says my wife!!!

Work smarter not harder.


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