# Bees not moving into honey supers



## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

I have been beekeeping for 4 years now in Northern California and I currently have 2 hives. The first hive is standard English honey bees from a pollination farm and this hive is prolific it produced 100 lbs of honey last year and 60 the year before. My 2nd hive is carnelian bees and I have had them for 3 yrs now and they have yet to produce any honey outside the 2 9" honey supers. Last year I feed them all winter thier numbers exploded and their supers where full so I added honey super early in march and the hive swarmed so no honey. This year again I feed them all winter and just checked the hive today 1/24 and it is packed with bees and honey but no movement into the honey super? I am lost any ideas? I already have new queen from the swarm last year so not sure what else to do? I have bee gate on still to keep pest out and only opening on the bottom...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!

There are several possibilities that might help with your non-productive hive. First, if the supers you added had no drawn comb perhaps you could move some empty drawn comb from the other hive to help in getting the bees to work the new box.

Some keepers will requeen a non-productive hive with a new queen raised from more productive bees - perhaps using bees from your other hive.

Also, feeding bees to the extent that they completely fill their brood boxes can lead to a situation where they swarm - because that is how a colony reproduces itself.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Some people will requeen a non productive. I am not sure this is a good idea. Why pinch a three survivor hive's queen? I would either manage it not to swarm (ie opening up the broodnest) or break it up into nucs (thanks to Michael Palmer).


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

tsmullins said:


> Why pinch a three survivor hive's queen?


Guess that depends on what you are looking for as your end goal. If you want 'live bees' as the end goal, keeping it around seems reasonable. If you want productive bees as the end goal, replacing seems to make sense.

What are your objectives ?


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Welcome to Beesource!
> 
> There are several possibilities that might help with your non-productive hive. First, if the supers you added had no drawn comb perhaps you could move some empty drawn comb from the other hive to help in getting the bees to work the new box.
> 
> ...


I have a new queen because of swarm and she is about a year old .... I can't request from my other hive because they are different type of bees.... I even added 2 6" honey frames from my other hive and all they did was eat the honey that's why I started feeding this winter thinking they might need more food???


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

grozzie2 said:


> Guess that depends on what you are looking for as your end goal. If you want 'live bees' as the end goal, keeping it around seems reasonable. If you want productive bees as the end goal, replacing seems to make sense.
> 
> What are your objectives ?


I agree and I am splitting my productive hive in two this spring based on palmers methods but I am afraid if I split this hive I will be stuck with 2 non productive hives instead of one??? Any ideas? I am afraid they might swarm but they won't move into open area... I even left the extruded off for 6 months over summer and fall and nothing....


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Calbears94 said:


> I even left the extruded off for 6 months over summer and fall and nothing....


after you pulled the excluder off was the brood box honey bound? Is the top box honey bound now? if it was many times they wont move up. if they are honey bound open up the brood nest to give the queen some room to lay and put on the honey supers if you have a flow going, if they are still unproductive requeen it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It is hard for me to relate to someone bemoaning the fact that a colony is not moving up into a super at this time of year when here there is snow and ice on top of deeply frozen ground.

Isn't it even early in Northern California to expect bees to be moving up into a new super, even if you are feeding them? And if you are feeding them as much as it seems, how are you keeping syrup produced honey separated from nectar produced honey in the hive and when taken off for extracting?

Me thinks tho doth feedeth too much, perhaps.


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## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

IMO,You said you've had the bees for 3 or 4 years,also they are 2 different types of bees,unless you can control mating,Now they are not pure as the first ones you had. In other words they are not the same breed you started with,
I'd requeen & never look back........Mark


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

mark williams said:


> IMO,You said you've had the bees for 3 or 4 years,also they are 2 different types of bees,unless you can control mating,Now they are not pure as the first ones you had. In other words they are not the same breed you started with,
> I'd requeen & never look back........Mark


The two hives are in two different locations so they don't mix.. One us in Cupertino and one I'd Dublin where I live so about 40 min apart.... I am adding a 2nd hive to each location this year so I will have 4 hives going forward....


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

wildbranch2007 said:


> after you pulled the excluder off was the brood box honey bound? Is the top box honey bound now? if it was many times they wont move up. if they are honey bound open up the brood nest to give the queen some room to lay and put on the honey supers if you have a flow going, if they are still unproductive requeen it.


Yes when I went I to the hive yesterday the top of the 9" super was packed with wax and I couldn't even pull the frames out.... Should I open both 9" and rotate the frames???


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> It is hard for me to relate to someone bemoaning the fact that a colony is not moving up into a super at this time of year when here there is snow and ice on top of deeply frozen ground.
> 
> Isn't it even early in Northern California to expect bees to be moving up into a new super, even if you are feeding them? And if you are feeding them as much as it seems, how are you keeping syrup produced honey separated from nectar produced honey in the hive and when taken off for extracting?
> 
> ...


I know it's early but in 3 yrs this have has never produced and honey... I tried feeding this winter so that thier supply would be full and hope lily then would go straight to honey production.. It's been over 65 in NorCal fur 3 weeks now so the bees are super active every day... I am worried they are going to swarm again but is it worth splitting an unproductive hive and ending up with 2 hives that don't produce???? I am still learning so any help is appreciated....


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## bbrowncods (Oct 10, 2012)

I don't know what the climate will be in Feb there so getting the hive to expand now may be risky. If you want them to jump the gap into the super put a frame of brood there (assuming the frame will fit). With brood in the top they will start populating the super. In place of the moved frame put an empty frame in the middle of the brood nest. If the hive is really strong you can do this with two frames.


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## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

No way would I want to keep an unproductive hive that has not produced in 3 years.REQUEEN, 
Maybe a queen from your other hive that does produce,Or if you don't feel comfortable raising your own,order one,


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Calbears94 said:


> is it worth splitting an unproductive hive and ending up with 2 hives ...


That's a good reason to split. If you have queens available that you like. Chances are they won't be unproductive. Unless it's the location and not the stock. Do you have hives in the same location that are productive? If you said you do I forgot.

They aren't productive but they have enough bees to make it through the winter? Maybe you need to open up the brood nest by sticking frames of comb between frames of capped brood and moving the frames you took out up into another box or onto another hive.


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> That's a good reason to split. If you have queens available that you like. Chances are they won't be unproductive. Unless it's the location and not the stock. Do you have hives in the same location that are productive? If you said you do I forgot.
> 
> They aren't productive but they have enough bees to make it through the winter? Maybe you need to open up the brood nest by sticking frames of comb between frames of capped brood and moving the frames you took out up into another box or onto another hive.


I am going to go into the hive today and check all the frames... I will try moving frames between the 2 boxes.... Would it be useful to still a 6" honey super between the 2 bottom boxes?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Put a 6" super between the deeps? I wouldn't.

Do you rotate deeps as part of your swarm control?


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Put a 6" super between the deeps? I wouldn't.
> 
> Do you rotate deeps as part of your swarm control?


I just went in and rotated the deep - flip flopped the bottom to the top and switched a few frames out.... All the frames had honey and where covered with bees... Also the hive got super aggressive and I got stung 5 times in the process - 2 Crowley up into my gloves and 3 stung though my outfit.... I was going to split but decided to give this a try and if they still swarm I tried....


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I wouldn't call this hive unproductive, it sounds like a management issue. I'd get rid of the supers and put another deep on and move some frames up and checkerboard the second and third boxes if the hive is booming already.


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

Okay so 3 9" supper..... If I do that then the idea is that they will grow larger and this produce more honey later???? I have an extra 9" already....


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

JRG13 said:


> I wouldn't call this hive unproductive, it sounds like a management issue. I'd get rid of the supers and put another deep on and move some frames up and checkerboard the second and third boxes if the hive is booming already.


I was taught that 2 9" supers were enough for the bees and then only additions are honey supers but will to try anything.....


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

mark williams said:


> No way would I want to keep an unproductive hive that has not produced in 3 years.REQUEEN,


I've got one, has produced little to nothing over 2 years. First year, they get the benefit of the doubt, they had a lot of comb to build. Second year, they got marked for 'fixing' when we pulled the honey supers. When spring rolls around, that queen goes into a nuc box, and a wintered nuc from a known good producer, gets newspaper combined into the hive. Quick and easy way to requeen from a line of 'known good' stuff. I'd only keep the bad one around to lay eggs in a nuc, which will give me some frames of brood to spike the weaker hive.

If I didn't have that nuc queen sitting around as a spare for this kind of thing, and had no other options, I'd pinch the unproductive queen, then wait a week. After a week, I'd go in and scrape all the cells, leaving them queenless, and no brood left young enough to raise a queen from. Then they get a frame with eggs from my known good producers. In a month you have a new queen laying, and in 3 months, the old unproductive line has all gone off to join Elvis. The process takes a little longer, but will get the job done.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

From a neighbor:
Mistake #1 - Established hives in Cupertino do not need ANY feeding. Probably suburban Dublin is the same.
Feeding ALL WINTER will only clog the brood chamber (WITH SUGAR, not honey) causing early swarming. 
What is a "bee gate"? A strong hive in the Bay Area should have wide open entrance ALL YEAR.
My suggestion: remove all solid sugar/honey clogged frames. Replace with foundation or empty comb. Place one super with drawn combs above the excluder if you use one. It seems like spring but is teasing us. Only the strongest hives are in their supers. And some like yours swarm even with the best of your intentions. 

"Me thinks tho doth feedeth too much, perhaps." A comment for the Beesource Hall of Fame.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

#copyright


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Calbears94, we call them deeps, mediums, or shallows, not usually 9". Leastwise most guys I know do. Just thought you'd like to know.


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## Motj3 (Dec 15, 2012)

Put a medium between your two deeps for a week or two. Then pull it making sure the queen isn't on it. Put it above your excluder. Make sure you have an entrance above it. Any drones will look ugly and die but the workers will hatch out fine and this will pull bees up. It will solve your issue. Once the bees hatch, the colony will clean and backfill the comb with honey. This works very well whether your medium has drawn comb or not. 

Swarm management is a different issue and will need addressed if you are honey bound.


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Calbears94, we call them deeps, mediums, or shallows, not usually 9". Leastwise most guys I know do. Just thought you'd like to know.


Thanks I am still a new bee keeper so still learning terminology....


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

Thanks for all the help guys.... I am going to try the shallow idea first and if that does work I will requeen... I pulled the feeder off yesterday so not more feeding either.... Last question my hive in Cupertino is European honey bees and the hive I have in Dublin is carnelian bees. I can't take a queen from that hive and bring over correct because different types?


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## Motj3 (Dec 15, 2012)

You can if you introduce her right.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes, we are having daytime temps in mid 60's to mid 70's, but, it's still low 30 over night. Bees will be clustering still over night, then breaking cluster and foraging during the warmer days. It is still early in the year, and colder weather may still hit us. I think you are trying to push them too hard a little too early in the year, and I think it's too early to be rotating boxes or splitting up brood areas with an empty non brood filled box. We are having nice warm days, but this is an unusual year and it can still get a cold spell come in.

I think the safest way to get them to move up, when THEY are ready, is to have a couple drawn combs in the upper box near the center. This gives them ready drawn comb to move up into and will get them drawing out foundations much quicker. Remember, they won't draw new comb well when it is still down close to freezing over night.

One hive doing well and the other lagging, is a good reason to have started with more than just one hive. You get to see the differences in how they work and build. You say you have two different breeds, and they are in different locations, so they will act differently from each other. Granted, the one may be a dud, but it could also be location, or the way that breed works. Consider swapping the whole hives to rule out location being a factor. Requeening the dud is always a good choice too, especially if location has good forage.


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