# Roughing It



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hi Phil.
On the basis that pushing wood across a table saw will create a 'rough-cut' surface (not as rough as from the timber-mill, admittedly), you might consider 'wiping' a hand-held circular saw with the blade held as flat as possible across the surface you want to roughen. I've never done this, but I suspect it could work ok. You'd need to hold the wood very firmly of course, to stop it from shooting across the workshop.
One other possibility is the use of a 'twist knot' wire brush (a totally barbaric tool) held in an angle grinder, and again, wiped fairly lightly and quickly across the grain of the wood. Speed of wiping is important insomuch as the 'cuts' into the wood really need to be separate for maximum effect. I use these brushes quite often for removing old paint from boxes, and only the lightest touch should be employed, as otherwise they'll very easily carve their way into the wood.

Although I usually paint my boxes internally (principally to prevent the pallet wood I use from swelling), I've noticed that the internal surfaces of boxes made many years ago from (unpainted) smooth plywood have been ignored, propolis-wise, whereas Long Hives made with roughened wood (old condemned scaffold planks) have become very nicely coated - despite their initial 'undercoat' of paint.

Marla Spivak also enthuses about (what she calls) the 'propolis envelope' surrounding the bee nest.
LJ


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Interiors of trees are rough (actually not always, it depends on the species)> Bees coat them with propolis> Propolis has healthful properties = making insides of beehives rough is better than leaving them smooth?

Maybe having rough sides, which need propolis to be comfortable and safe, merely increases the work-load of bees.

I use quilt boxes with fabric floors, my bees often propolize the under surface of the cotton. Some bees always do, some bee do it quickly, some only after the QBs have been on the stack for a few years. The cotton is as smooth as you can get.

While propolis has properties that we define as beneficially healthful maybe those are merely side effects. And there is no primary health benefit to propolis, so more propolis is not better for the bees than a lower amount. And it certainly takes effort to gather and install.

Maybe that cost:benefit ratio is positive when the interior surfaces are dangerously rough, but less so when the surfaces are made smooth by a beekeeper.

My point being do we know (as opposed to hypothesize) that a more-propolized environment is better for the bees in ways besides providing mechanical protection and safety (which can be easily created by a planer)? 

Maybe bees propolize the interiors of some tree cavities for other reasons than smoothing them. They certainly coat the fabric of my quilt boxes with propolize for some other reason than making it smooth.

Nancy


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Apitherapy uses the air from the hive.
The substances are volatile, so they are part of the inner climate of a hive.
The bees will probably not be allergic 

Since the substances have an antibiotic effect, it is probably better if there is as much propolis as possible in the hive.
The propolis can also be taken up by the bees and rearranged to e.g. to line the cells.

Everyone knows that in a crisis the bees use a lot of propolis and that brood disease is on the rise, because this behavior of the bees collecting propolis has been bred away.
So it's not just technical reasons that the bees collect propolis.

There are plastic lattices on the market, which can be attached to the inside of the hive walls to promote the propolis entry.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Sandblast after making all cuts so the occasional embedded grit does not quickly knacker expensive dadoes. Simple 2 slice rabbets would be no problem for carbide blade. 

Enjambres words carry some weight: Propolizing may be only coincidental for other reasons than colony health benefit. Closely controlled experiments needed to see whether a person would only be entertaining their fancies! A google search does not qualify!


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Ten years ago I built 2 - 5 over 5 nuc boxes (for overwintering) out of rough cut 1 x 12 lumber from a local saw mill because its much cheaper. Two years later I built 8 more and they are as good as the day I built them. Bees only add a slightly thicker film of propolis to the inside surface compared to commercial made equipment. While bees overwinter great in 5 over 5 boxes in my area it has nothing to do with the interior surface. Bees in the smooth surface equipment are every bit as healthy as the bees in rough surface boxes. The advantage is cost savings. If I were to buy those 10 nucs today it would cost around $800.00. I built them for a fraction of that.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

If a colony kills a large intruder, such as a mouse, they then proceed to embalm that organism with propolis. That seems to me to be very purposeful behaviour - when the obvious alternative would be to just leave it 'as is' to putrify and eventually decompose naturally. So why invest so much effort in behaviour which suggests anticipation of future decomposition ? Perhaps bees have a much better approach to dealing with some bacteria (but clearly, not all) than we give them credit for.
LJ


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I googled some more 

https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2010/03/m09142.pdf

This is what the OP wrote:


> So, I want to make a few hives with rough interiors to see how the bees respond, and see if it creates any difficulties in beekeeping.


And I would be very grateful if he ( she) takes action in roughing up the walls and update because I´m very interested! Perhaps try myself, I have smooth surface now.
He (she) seems to be happy with the rough boards or would not want to make smooth boards rough!

hankstump


> Do the bees stop adding propolis in the fall the same


No, they collect for propolis much more in fall to close up the hive. At least mine do or they do it because they are near collapsing with mites 

MJC417
do you treat your hives?


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I have a few hives made from barn wood. It was barely 13/16" so I only planed it on one side. 

I haven't noticed any obvious benefits although I haven't thought about it too much in medicinal terms. I can say the bees that propolize have a much better handle on SHB control. When I remove the inner cover I always find SHB carcasses entombed in the propolis at the point where the inner cover overlaps the ends of the frames. It looks as though they herd them in and close it off leaving them to starve. Sometimes they are alive when I pull the cover but they are easy targets for my thumb.

The colonies that don't propolize heavily I get lots more SHB in the swiffer sheets and DE trays.









Alex


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## SWM (Nov 17, 2009)

"Are there any box suppliers making standard hive boxes that are rough cut on the inside?"

Yes, Brushy Mountain...

https://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/10-Frame-ProPlus-Deep


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

hankstump said:


> 3 - Do you have any ideas how to roughen up the inside of some pine boxes before assembly?


Have you tried one of the wires brushes that you put in a drill? They seem to remove paint and other stuff well, so I think they will quickly roughen up wood. 


link to a couple of different styles
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Avanti-Pro-Removal-Project-Set-4-Piece-PWW4PCVGPD01G/202831063


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

They have some new oscillating power tools out in recent years with a variety of shapes and grit/file surfaces that would be much easier and safer than the rotary tools. Do a heck of a lot better getting into corners too.


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## wasabi (Jun 14, 2016)

I've heard and read about this as well. 
A V groove-router bit set shallow (bout 1/8") with cross pattern (bout like a GO board) is what we're trying with our new line of Honeycomb Hives
Plan to do 6 hive comparison tests next spring of "A" (with grooves) against "B" (without) Not exactly scientific research but may be informative..

We're just going to focus on roughing up the inner center part of the sides....don't see a need for propolis all over as with rough sawn lumber


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

A twist-knot wire brush - if used on it's side - will get to within a millimetre (or two at the most) of a box corner.



They are what I use for all sorts of rough work. Just mind your fingers - it's a barbaric tool which has no respect whatsoever for human flesh.
LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

little_john said:


> A twist-knot wire brush - if used on it's side - will get to within a millimetre (or two at the most) of a box corner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You need to take a lesson from porcupines with that animal you picture LJ .You know how porcupines _"do it"_? Very carefully!:no:


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Beekeepers are always looking for that special tweak in their equipment or type of hive that will somehow miraculously make them a big success. I have old smooth factory boxes with thick coatings of propolis inside. I never wasted time roughing them up. I have also had brand new hives in their first year make huge crops of honey in all brand new equipment on new foundation. The best technique to get well propolised equipment is to keep bees in old neighborhoods with stands of huge old trees and forests within flight range. If they have access to propolis they will collect it. Not so much in new suburban neighborhoods, they are lacking in a variety of old sizeable propolis producing trees.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

Pick out the roughness you desire and buy & glue sandpaper to the inside of your hives.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Tim KS said:


> Pick out the roughness you desire and buy & glue sandpaper to the inside of your hives.


Or brush on thinned glue and toss on a bit of fine sand.


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

Metal bristled brush comes to mind. Several posted above about drill bits to speed the process. I wonder if any study has been done to compare hives with high levels of propolis vs those that don't and nosema and other nasties. None of the hives I've looked into around here seem to have much on the walls. I wonder if our heat influences it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

They propolise timber in the brood area, rough or smooth. Less so the honey areas.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

If the essence of this topic is to actually *increase degree of propolization of the nest* (but not yet try another tweak at the carpentry), I say reconsider this entire thing.
I have plenty of propolization as it is without any tweaks.

Consider - touching top bars will cause bees to propolise entire "ceiling" of the nest. They really like to glue those top bars together so much so that the bars' wood is no longer touching.
Also consider - if top bars are not touching by design, cover them with a burlap (or something similar).
The burlap will be quickly propolised really, really heavily (again, creating a propolised ceiling).
Before bees will ever propolise any wall, they would rather propolise the ceiling first - because this is where the most energy escapes and bees want to control that.

So, what is it you really want?
Another carpentry tweak to play with (also fine if so) or to actually have more propolise in the nest?


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Tim KS said:


> Pick out the roughness you desire and buy & glue sandpaper to the inside of your hives.


Lol now that's funny :lpf:

Every one of my brood boxes is propolized on every interior surface. Honey boxes not so much but as the boxes get older the more they get coated. 

The bees will propolize over shellac but not over paint in my hives.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> Before bees will ever propolise any wall, they would rather propolise the ceiling first - because *this is where the most energy escapes and bees want to control that*.


I suspect this statement - as true as it is - will fall upon deaf ears by those who swear by upper entrances, and by those who use quilts.

Indeed, propolis is conventionally harvested by placing plastic mesh or woven mosquito netting mesh above the combs, waiting until the bees seal that mesh, then flexing it to recover the propolis. With Top Bar hives, the bars are separated slightly, so that the bees are then motivated to seal-up those cracks. The propolis is then recovered by physical scraping. https://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=je.2012.274.281

If you want propolis in large quantities, then surfaces above the nest are indeed the places to be concentrating on.
LJ


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## Deon (Feb 5, 2018)

Cool discussion, would the expectation also be that the box’s would last longer with the additional propolis coating?


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

little_john said:


> I suspect this statement - as true as it is - will fall upon deaf ears by those who swear by upper entrances, and by those who use quilts.
> LJ


Not deaf ears around here. I put in upper entrance holes for that very reason. Climate zones make a big difference. Too much heat and moisture is a much bigger issue here than cold.

I'm interest to see what happens if the op gets them to coat the inside of the boxes.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Jadeguppy said:


> Not deaf ears around here. I put in upper entrance holes for that very reason. Climate zones make a big difference. Too much heat and moisture is a much bigger issue here than cold.


I've often heard of this approach being adopted - but only in America.

Earlier today I was looking at a few videos of an operation based in Kenya, which is much closer to the equator than Florida, and thus (I assume) much hotter. They run three types of hive there: the Kenyan Top Bar Hive, the Langstroth, and a hive they call the 'Tabuzi', which looks to be either a Langstroth derivative, or perhaps a large Langstroth-based Nucleus Box mounted on a pole or tall stand as defence against honey-badgers. What these three types of hive have in common is that they are all run with sealed tops and bottom entrances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiPn5Lu4exI 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPoDgrbZakk 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEXEh_sAuxM 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbuAmkp7FRU 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhD7AABZrV0

There's a fair amount of repetition in the videos, and some of their beekeeping techniques leave quite a lot to be desired - but hopefully they'll prove of some interest - if only for comparison. And - those African guys could seriously improve their lives from the purchase of a few uncapping knives ! 
LJ


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

A gadget called a toothed plane would do a fine job of roughening the inside of a box. Unfortunately they are expensive woodworking tools. Some sort of toothed scraper that you fabricate would work. A new sharp metal horse curry might work.
Bill


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Simply wetting the surface of a board will raise the grain.


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## hervebonchance (12 mo ago)

I have the same question.After reading Dr Seeley s book, I am convinced of the benefits of propolis...I wonder if a Dremel tool would be the easiest to use to roughen up the insides ?


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

hervebonchance said:


> I have the same question.After reading Dr Seeley s book, I am convinced of the benefits of propolis...I wonder if a Dremel tool would be the easiest to use to roughen up the insides ?


Only one or two hives and you already own a Dremel, yes it will work. Would not purchase one just for this use as it will be very slow. As others up thread have mentioned, a wire brush in an angle grinder will be much faster. A cup style might be a bit safer than the one pictured... Wear eye protection and heavy gloves!

A dirt cheap method is a scrap of wood with a few sharp drywall screws barely sticking out. Drag that across the hive body a few times and it will rough it up with a bit of elbow grease.

For un-assembled components and you happen to have a jointer  Modified jointer Probably want more and shallower grooves in this application. Similar to the toothed plane whiskers suggested.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

hervebonchance said:


> I have the same question.After reading Dr Seeley s book, I am convinced of the benefits of propolis


If you think that somehow this will replace the anti-mite management - you will be incorrect.
The propolis envelope will not create any significant difference in the mite department.
Other factors are much more significant.
Been there - done that.

Seeley needs to sell his books. 

PS: granted - heavy propolization trait may have a connection to higher hygienic expression (that maybe) - which is a different thing from propolis itself having anti-mite properties.


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## Rave1 (May 8, 2021)

This year I burnt the inside of my new boxes with a blow torch. Wondering what effect this will have on the colonies house keeping educate. propolis?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

can always coat the inside with a tincture of propolis.
or use rough sawn lumber.

scratching smooth wood, means you have too few hives to manage, IMO , add 20 more hives, each year, until the urge to rough the interior fades away.

GG


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