# Do they move them or not?



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I believe they will move them if need be. People also claim to get drone brood above an excluder, which could be attributed to laying workers or drone eggs/larva being moved past the excluder by worker bees and deposited in more drone friendly locations.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

what about Cell Phone Towers causing CCD?


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Are you saying the voices in their heads from cell phones are altering their behavior?


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Answer a question with a question; why would they? What circumstances would trigger that behavior? JMO, but I see a big difference between returning a larvae that "fell" out of a cell (so to speak) than selecting one to move to a cell (supecedure I'm assuming) to raise a queen. 
Rick


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Can think of several reasons why they may? There has been argument that no they can't or no they won't for some reason. From what I saw, seems they certainly can easily. When time comes to swarm, who decides? And who puts the larva in the cups?


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Or, how many licks to get to the center of a tootsie pop. The world may never know???


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The first time I came across this question was when I was looking through the International Bee Research Associations (IBRA) Bibliography of Beekeeping when I came across a Paper from Chekoslovakia. This is an old question which will live on just like the second shooter in Dallas when JFK was killed.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Rick 1456 said:


> Answer a question with a question; why would they? What circumstances would trigger that behavior? JMO, but I see a big difference between returning a larvae that "fell" out of a cell (so to speak) than selecting one to move to a cell (supecedure I'm assuming) to raise a queen.
> Rick


so are you saying there is no question that bees will move larva. and that the only thing in question is why?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Bizzy - You're full of it - everyone our age (yes you've dated yourself by quoting a very old commericial)knows from watching the owl it takes TW0HOO

Then there are the legends of bees "stealing" eggs from another hive to raise a queen.

International Beekeeping Research Associations Bibliography of Beekeeping - Funny - I've been meaning to read that one, sounds rivieting!!!!!!!!!!


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

so are you saying there is no question that bees will move larva. and that the only thing in question is why? 

No,,,,,I have no answer as to whether they do or not. Just posing the question,,,why would they when they have other means. But, bees are bees and do surprising things Maybe I'm taking this too seriously. I agree my phrasing was poor
Rick


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Huber went to great lengths to put bees in a position where they needed to move eggs. They never did. They REmove eggs and consume them, but they do not move them. I know of no documented case of bees moving eggs. I've never heard a scenario where there wasn't a better explanation that did not involve moving eggs.

Here is one of many of his experiments on that particular subject:

http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#commonbeesdonot


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Now Joel! I never said I wasn't full of it!! LOL

And now that you mention it I remember those arguments about egg stealing. I also remember talking to the Honeyman once about having a hive show up with a queen when there wasn't any way there could have been viable eggs to make one. But I vaguely remember the incident. Maybe he does but I doubt it? Probably not even fair to mention it.

Michael, I'll have a look at what you have! Thanks! I've wondered if anyone had done any real work with the question before? I understand Huber tried everything possible, but maybe that was conceivable as they saw it? But I apparently produced a suitable situation that caused a bee to move one. Purely unintentional I can assure you but the bee none the less addressed the issue readily. So I still ask the question. Because it clearly isn't an issue that larva fall out of their cells on any kind of regularity I'm sure. But the bee dealt with it as if it were a natural thing to do.

Gotta admit, it's not such a wild idea to explore........ Or that it's anything with much value but hmmmmmm, I wonder?


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Oh and sqkcrk, that's still open isn't it?  And Rick.... It's all fun ain't it


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is what still open?


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Who the second shooter was?


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

you put the lime in the coconut and mix it all up


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

> I also remember talking to the Honeyman once about having a hive show up with a queen when there wasn't any way there could have been viable eggs to make one.


Biz my mentor told a story about that and yes Mark it is an age old question.

IMO if the can carry seeds from my bird feeder 300 yards then they could carry a larva but I doubt it can bee proven.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Sheesh HM!!! Now you done gone and made it a challenge! lol


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## Heavenly bees (Mar 27, 2011)

ive seen queen cells started on old jzbz plastic cell cups in my cell finishers above the queen excluder the queen cell was on a frame that was from a prevous nuc i made the year before 
no way for the queen to bee up were the bees were finishing cells glad i caught it before it hatched. they had just started on it wish i had took a picture


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Did it produce a queen? Queens get thru excluders all the time.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Interesting she went up there, laid one egg and went back down?


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## Heavenly bees (Mar 27, 2011)

1. no the thing is i had capped queen cells up there she would of destroyed them 
2. also no eggs in the frames above the excluder 
3. i found the queen below laying away
so only explanation was that a bee had moved an egg up there


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

YAY! :applause:


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

hahahaha


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Heavenly bees said:


> 1. no the thing is i had capped queen cells up there she would of destroyed them
> 2. also no eggs in the frames above the excluder
> 3. i found the queen below laying away
> so only explanation was that a bee had moved an egg up there


Maybe. Or maybe something we haven't thought of yet.

Like I asked before, did it make a queen? Or did you answer this already? W/ Number 1?

W/ a healthy laying queen, in other words plenty of queen pheromone, and cells being finished, why would a bee move an egg thru an excluder and into a queen cup? Was there open and capped brood down below?


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## Heavenly bees (Mar 27, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe. Or maybe something we haven't thought of yet.
> 
> Like I asked before, did it make a queen? Or did you answer this already? W/ Number 1?
> 
> W/ a healthy laying queen, in other words plenty of queen pheromone, and cells being finished, why would a bee move an egg thru an excluder and into a queen cup? Was there open and capped brood down below?


no i had destroyed it :doh: should of let it be and see what would of happend
have no idea why the would move an egg up there 
abd yes there was a laying queen below with capped and uncapped brood


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Since Heavenly bees was glad to catch the new cell being worked, one would assume it was destroyed. Number 1 says the queen would have destroyed the finished cells if she was among them. Not sure I follow the reasoning behind the question? Number 3 says there was a happy laying queen below. Why would they do such a thing? Wouldn't it be awesome if bees could talk!! Clueless here? Defies what we think we know. All the better reason to question what we believe to be true............


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

This question is more interesting than it used to be.

What environmental forces would pressure a colony to move an egg? Shouldn't we expect to see a number of eggs moved and not just one? Also, if something was going on which made the colony move eggs, would one expect to see modified cells? Or supercedure or swarm cell cups built on combs in honey supers?


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## Heavenly bees (Mar 27, 2011)

interesting point


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bizzybee said:


> Since Heavenly bees was glad to catch the new cell being worked, one would assume it was destroyed. Number 1 says the queen would have destroyed the finished cells if she was among them. Not sure I follow the reasoning behind the question? Number 3 says there was a happy laying queen below. Why would they do such a thing? Wouldn't it be awesome if bees could talk!! Clueless here? Defies what we think we know. All the better reason to question what we believe to be true............


What about the idea that a worker bee laid that egg and it was actually a drone. We did lose some important info since it was destroyed by the beekeeper. Coulda been a drone larva in a queen cup.

How was it oriented?


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## Heavenly bees (Mar 27, 2011)

the egg?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No, I meant the cell. But, since you mention it, yes. I thought you said it was a larvae, not an egg. Did I misunderstand that?


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

hahaha got us thinking.  Good points sqk!


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## Heavenly bees (Mar 27, 2011)

it was a started cell so it had fresh wax on the end of the jzbz plastic cell it was a larvae that had ample royal jelly the cell was faced down wards becase it was a queen cell from last year that i placed


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## Heavenly bees (Mar 27, 2011)

who knows could of been laid there by a worker


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I have no real doubt that nurse/house bees can relocate larva, though I have strong doubts about their propensity to exercise that ability. Of course, eggs are cemented to the bottoms of the cell they were laid in - making their relocation problematic, to say the least. Additionally, those same nurse bees can modify any worker cell into a queen cell in a few minutes, and often do, so why would they develop a relocation talent? Or, why would they relocate larvae to proper queen cells, which they'd also need to construct.

My reluctance to speak in absolutes about any of natures creatures, plant or animal, comes from the experience that they have an uncanny way of making me into a liar.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

I don't think moving an egg is an issue since they hatch in two days. No reason to move them. No reason why you would think they move a larva to a cell cup. Conserving time or resources? Why would they develop the talent is the question that started the thread. Why did the bee without hesitation remove the larva from the grafting tool and place it back in a cell. The action was obviously a natural response. Was it a trait specific to a race? My bees are mutts. Is it a defense in response to disaster such as an attack by outside forces damaging the nest, saving the young as ants do? Could be? But one thing is fact. They can and will move larva. The question is, to what extent will they use the ability?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bizzybee said:


> Why did the bee without hesitation remove the larva from the grafting tool and place it back in a cell. The action was obviously a natural response.


Was it a House Cleaning activity?

Why was that bee on the comb to begin with? I hope that doesn't seem to critical a question. I would think that someone grafting larvae would keep bees away to make things easier to do ones work. Obviously conditions vary.


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## keeper (Jan 29, 2012)

With today's camera technology and some observation hives kept at swarm conditions this should be a pretty easy question to answer.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

You might think so keeper. We shall see.

I would think it a bit more than a cleaning activity sqkcrk or wouldn't seem like any kind of cleaning activity I can think of, you?

It was a very nice, warm sunny day outside and sunlight is the best for vision. I had shaken most of the bees from the frame but a handful at best of nurse bees remained. No bother and nothing unusual. Can you think of a better place to be than out among the bees doing your thing? Pretty peaceful place to spend the day I think.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Mark
The first queen "I" raised was a capped cell in the second honey super with a small patch of brood (not more than 100 worker capped brood)

Now while we are thinking (dang that is hard on me) have any of youzs guys ever seen a queen lay an egg in a "cup" :s


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...a few thoughts...

1. A lot of this has been discussed before: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?193466-Eggs-and-Queen-Cells/page2

2. It isn't unusual to find a queen has moved through/past an excluder to lay drones or queen cells....the comb in the brood nest is often built up with cocoons, and it is hard for the bees to reshape into drone or queen cells.

3. I have a video (taken by Dee Lusby when she was doing the thelytoky study with the Tucson lab) of workers laying in queen cups.

4. I do have a copy of the Mark Winston study that claims to have shown the queen moved cells. Just about to go out for supper, but will take a closer look at it. It seemed that he used the age of the queen cell larvae to show that it wasn't from a laying worker, but I was reading it on the airplane, and my battery died  ...this was with AHB. Winston was convinced, and put it in his book (1991) that "workers can and do move a small number of fertilized eggs or very young larvae ..."

deknow


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Yes bizzybee, it is all fun  Pretty neat when it kinda starts to brainstorm. 
Yes, the second shooter question open, but we do know now that the earth is not flat as once thought LOL 
Rick


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bizzybee said:


> You might think so keeper. We shall see.
> 
> I would think it a bit more than a cleaning activity sqkcrk or wouldn't seem like any kind of cleaning activity I can think of, you?
> 
> It was a very nice, warm sunny day outside and sunlight is the best for vision. I had shaken most of the bees from the frame but a handful at best of nurse bees remained. No bother and nothing unusual. Can you think of a better place to be than out among the bees doing your thing? Pretty peaceful place to spend the day I think.


Brush bees from the frame w/ a bee brush. Shaking can be harmful. Grafting in a grafting shed. Though I have done so on the hood of a truck too.

hnyman, in a cup or while wearing a cup?

What about the fake Moon Landing Theory?


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Brush bees from the frame w/ a bee brush. Shaking can be harmful. Grafting in a grafting shed. Though I have done so on the hood of a truck too.
> 
> 
> What about the fake Moon Landing Theory?



who killed Kennedy ?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Here is the Winston paper. In order for these queens to come from worker laid eggs, it seems to me that they would have had to start laying in the queen cups within a couple of days. It is hard to figure out what actually happened here, but if workers do move eggs/larvae, it would be nice to have actual footage...then there would be no doubt.
deknow
http://beeuntoothers.com/Removing AHB Queen.pdf


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Sure nuff Rick! Ya just gotta give these ole beeks something to think about. Something there are no definitive answers for and make em wake up from their slumber and boredom. Answering the same old newbee questions that have been asked a thousand times over easily with their eyes closed and both hands behind their backs. Poor ole Honeyman coming outta hibernation up there....... I can smell smoke coming off his gears!! Hope he don't hurt himself!! :lookout::lpf: Carry on boys n girls. Enjoying the exchange and links!!


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