# Too much slop between frame and box?



## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Your good.

You want some slop to allow the frames to move a little. There will also be some swelling of the wood (box and frames) and the slop allows for that. The bees will fill this space with propolis also.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

You should have around 1/16" of clearance on each end of the top bar, so I think your are fine. Any tighter than that and you get problems removing them after the bees glue them in.

My rule is that if the frames go into the box and don't fall through or get stuck the box is good. I've even added some extra strips of wood to "fix" one that I made a little over long, it's a honey super and they only stay on about three months around here.

I also use metal frame rests -- the bees glue them up less and frames seem to come out a bit easier, plus they scrape clean without gouging out wood. 

Peter


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

ericw said:


> Is that as it should be, or did I mess up?


That is not as it should be. The frames should be 19", and the distance between the outside edges of the frame rests should be 19⅛". The distance between the inside edges of the frame rest should be 18⅜". You want the distances right to keep the frames from falling and to keep the correct bee space between the side of the box and the outside edge of the end bars of the frames. Speaking from the experience of having made the same mistake and not correcting it, I would fix it now.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Technically, they should be a little tighter. However I always make my boxes a hair longer than they should be on the inside, like yours, and it has never been a problem. If you cut them a tad too short, and the frames don't fit back in easily when the end of the top bars get gunked up with a little propolis, you have a very frustrating problem on your hands. Ask me how I know that.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Riverderwent said:


> That is not as it should be.


Some of my boxes predate my 46 years in beekeeping an a 1/8" slop is the last thing I am concerned about. You are fine. Start worrying when they look like this:


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## Fishmaster50 (Apr 30, 2015)

Going to be hard to spin honey out of those supers!!!!


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Ollie, the frame rests go up.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

This was a swarm in pile of abandoned boxes, we stacked supers on it for years until it died out. Must have produced a few hundred pounds of crop with that brood chamber.


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

ericw said:


> So - I'm a new beekeper, and I built my own boxes. Now I'm not sure if I got the dimensions right or not. There seems to be 1/8" of gap between the end of the frame and the edge of the rail I created for the frames. Is that as it should be, or did I mess up? I should state that this is when the frame is centered in the box, so there's that 1/8" gap on each end.
> 
> I bought the frames from Kelley's, so I'm assuming they knew what they were doing...
> 
> ...


manufactuers assume you know what you are doing


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If the frames fall off the ledge, THEN you have a problem...


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Adjust the boxes if you change anything, but only to the correct dimensions for standard woodenware. If your frames are from Kelley, they are the correct size. Cut the box joints (or dados, whatever) a bit deeper to remove about 1/16" from each end. A slightly loose fit is easier to manage than too tight. You don't want to pull frames apart when they are full of bees and honey.

I made about 60 boxes this winter and am working on frames -- with some practice (and screwups) it's getting so that they come out square, on size, and flat all the time now. Scrounged lumber works fine, I even glue up scraps to get the correct width for honey supers, they only stay on the hive over winter when things go wrong.

In future, concentrate on making the boxes exactly the correct dimensions, they last longer when they fit together correctly and don't overhang. 

It can be a challange, but in the end it's quite rewarding to have all that equipment you made yourself. Now if I can just keep from starting new hives too fast I won't have to spend next winter breathing sawdust....

Peter


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> If the frames fall off the ledge, THEN you have a problem...


Nothing a t50 staple on the end of the frame won't fix lol my first few boxes were horrible lol


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

That or a screw. You can also cut a very thin shim and staple it on the inside of the ledge. I will bet the bees will propolize the frames and seams until it is a tight fit


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Only thing I saw that I would do differently, were I building my own equipment, is I'd glue and staple those frames. And I wouldn't use square end bars. The bees are going to glue them together worse than other styles.

Pretty good first step.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Only thing I saw that I would do differently, were I building my own equipment, is I'd glue and staple those frames. And I wouldn't use square end bars. The bees are going to glue them together worse than other styles.
> 
> Pretty good first step.


 My first ones didn't work right ether. You may have every thing cut right, however, you may need to use glue, staples and clamps to get rid of the gaps. Make sure they are square and tight...


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## ericw (Feb 11, 2016)

sqkcrk said:


> Only thing I saw that I would do differently, were I building my own equipment, is I'd glue and staple those frames. And I wouldn't use square end bars. The bees are going to glue them together worse than other styles.
> 
> Pretty good first step.


What end bar shape would you use?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There SHOULD be 1/8" of slop (1/16" on each end if you centered it) in the length of the top bars. The inside of the frame rests is 19 1/8". The top bar is 19".


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## ericw (Feb 11, 2016)

Thought I'd give an update. I went back and took more precise measurements of my boxes, and the inside dimensions are exactly 19 1/8 inches. The Kelly top bars are exactly 1/16 short of 19 inches. I'm going to say they're close enough, but it is just a little bit more slop then it sounds like is ideal. We will see this season!


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Most of that "slop" will disappear quickly once they get get a little propolis added to the top bars and frame rest ledge.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Unless the frames are falling off the rests you are fine.

I have some that are a bit wonky in my honey supers. I don't worry about them much, as they don't usually stay on the hive very long (March to June is about it). I'm more particular about brood boxes and frames, as they stay on the hive indefinitely, and I want them to fit better so they are less work to inspect, etc. The bees don't care.

Peter


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> The Kelly top bars are exactly 1/16 short of 19 inches. I'm going to say they're close enough

Actually that is 1/16" too little slop, but it will do. It should be 1/8".


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## ericw (Feb 11, 2016)

@Michael - My internal dimensions are 19 1/8 inches, and the kelley's frame is 1/16 inch short, so I actually have 3/16 inches of slop.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The internal dimensions are supposed to be 19 1/8". The frames are supposed to be 19". That's 1/8". So your frames are 18 15/16"? Still not a problem.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

If the frames go in and cannot fall through, they are fine. Mine are a bit variable because my lumber is "assorted" in origin and the box joints don't come out even all the time, nor does the frame rest. Unless they get stuck or fall in, the bees don't care.

Peter


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

it sounds great as is.
the real requirement is bee space. 1/4 inch to 3/8 inch, clearance between every thing, between the end bars & the wall of the box, between the thin parts of the end bars as they are jammed together, etc.
I had some frames I got in a nuc or somewhere that had one side of the end bar with a pointed edge toward the next one. like >[ the pointy side was switched on the other end of the frame so even I could not mess up putting them back in the hive box 
If you are considering designated brood boxes ( not the "all mediums, so any thing interchanges for any where"), read up about running 11 frames in a 10 frame box for the brood nest ( or 9 frames in an 8 frame box)
Good luck with your bees. CE


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