# Africans - rate of increase?



## applebwoi (Jun 20, 2006)

I live in Amarillo, in the Panhandle of Texas, and AHB are just moving into our area. I visited with our Entomology Extension Specialist and he said that only about 3 of 50 or 60 submissions to the Texas A&M Bee Lab tested positive for AFB this year. My question is how quickly will they become dominant or will they? I caught a feral swarm last year and they are exceptionally calm and other Beeks I've talked with also indicate that all the swarms they've caught were also non-agressive. Just for fun, I'd like to develop some of my own queens by supersedure but what are the odd that they will turn up part AFB and mean?


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## applebwoi (Jun 20, 2006)

Wow, I just realized I've been promoted (perhaps demoted??) to field bee status


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>what are the odd that they will turn up part AFB and mean?

I imagine your chances of encountering africanized drones are better than even and will get better over time. You're mixing up AHB and AFB by the way, though we know what you're talking about.

>Wow, I just realized I've been promoted (perhaps demoted??) to field bee status

Congratulations. You now have about 3 weeks of useful posting life left


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Well I know a lot of those submissions last year and likely this year were combing from Oklahoma. Since we are further north than you are and should have fewer AHBs. 

I have gotten the impression there will be a graduals increase in defensive behavior. That occasional hit by a bee when you are near a hive getting more and more frequent. I am into breeding so I dont collect swarms. I will pick one or two up now if I plan on replacing the queen. Swarms make good free packages.

[ October 25, 2006, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: magnet-man ]


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

apple,
Once they are in your area, I would strongly suggest marking your queens. The reason is two fold.

First, the chances of a swarm or supercedure queen mating with AHB drones is increased. If you have a marked queen, you can at least keep records and monitor any new unmarked queens that show up.

Second, even if you go through your hives regularly for queen cells, and think you can be aware of new queens showing up,..don't be fooled. AHB's do something called insurptation. This is when they send out a small softball swarm cluster. It settles on a managed hive and once the sun goes down, and the guard bees defenses relax, they march in the hive, kill the queen, and you now have a AHB colony. Some research has shown that commercial yards in AHB areas, have up to a 20% insurptation rate per year. Without monitoring, by the end of the second year, almost the entire yard would be AHBs.

The scary thing about AHB's, is that the first queen to move in a hive, or at least the purer strains of AHB's are actually nothing like the onces shown in video's. Some AHB yards are worked in shorts and t-shirts. Its when the produce the first generation daughters many times that they go ballistic. So you could have a AHB in a colony, producing AHB drones and mating with additional colonies, with no outward appearance of anything different. Then one day all heck breaks lose. This is why marked queens and knowing your genetic stock is very important once AHBs move into your area.

To answer your last question, I would say the odds are great once they are established in your area.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I think that it probalby depends on factors such as local climate, the number of kept colonies and the requeening habits of local beeks. Amarillo gets cold enough that I'm not even sure that AHB could overwinter there every year. The extension specialist would probably be your best resource.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Aspera, the only thing related to the not surviving part of AHB's in cold weather, has to do with stores. AHB's swarms constantly. In nature they would never collect 60 to 80 pounds to make it through a northern winter. They would freeze out and starve.

But allow genetics to enter a beekeeping operation, an operation full of hives loaded in the fall with 60 to 80 pounds of honey, then AHB's have no problem overwintering. Its already happened. Last year in New York for one. 

The northern winter may keep the overall density (true feral colonies living in small capacity hives) of AHB's lower than the southern tiers, but once they are here, the winters are not a defense.

Existing managed colonies with ample stores, feral colonies with large areas such as houses and barns, and any colony that has saved enough for winter survival, all present an easy way for AHB's to survive a winter. And it only takes one hive to completely take over the local area with genetics come the following spring. And an unsuspecting beekeeper will not even know it happened. (Read my first post, above).


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

well first off applebwoi likely 25% of those samples were forwarded to the bee lab by me. which should suggest that brazos county is a bit heavily (over) represented.

I think you first need to restrict the data set to those reported in the panhandle. This should suggest to you just how dire the problem is in your own area. Over time (at least to my way of thinking) your real problem is the migratory folks that move up from the south (on the other hand if these migratory folks manage their stock close this might be advantagous in terms of limit ahb expansion). One thing is for certain you will have little trouble with the AHB hives lurking in some hollow of some old tree.

I would suspect that the kinds of winters that you have in the panhandle should limit the AHB success in your area... but this for certain is simply a feeling.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I get the feeling that we have a rare thing here...consensus. Everything above seems to make sense, and it is always good to hear about AHB from people more knowledgable than I am (which doesn't take much). Along those lines, can anyone recommend a good book or other resource for the nuts and bolts of keeping AHB. I've read Winston and a few ABJ articles, but was hoping for the South African equivilent of "Practical Beekeeping". Bjorn, Tecumseh and others keep telling me that Arizona and Texas are only the beginning and its finally starting to sink in.

[ October 25, 2006, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Aspera ]


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Aspera, based on the most southern movement in South America the most northern spread in the US is to the Kansas Oklahoma boarder. However there are a number of experts that predict the spread will be further north than that. Only time will tell.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Our club meeting last month was dominated with AHB topics. Three things stood out related to this thread.

The beekeeper that responded to the tree trimming incident that sent seven people to the hospital has picked up and summarily killed over 1200 swarms since that time. No testing, just killing them all.

The 'experts' think that the northern advance will be the Ks/Ne border on mild winters, and freeze back to the Ks/Ok border during really cold winters. The northern march will follow I-35, right through my city.

And the reason that they think that cold will kill most AHB is not only the lack of stores, but primarily the fact that AHB build their combs on a wider center to center. That they need more ventilation to keep cool in the hot tropical heat of Africa, the combs are set further apart allowing more cooling air into the hive.

They believe that this is the main reason that the AHB will not be able to cluster tightly enough to keep warm and be able to move to stores during our cold and windy winters.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

lancaster CA temps get down to 10 degree f Africans survive well through winter. Swarm size will be size of a hard ball. First year of their arrival I put out 50 mating nucs. 35 came up African. Quick test to see if a swarm is dangerous. With vail on exhale on swarm. On insurptation, what I see is very small swarm attaches to lid, migratory cover. Africans move slowly into hive by way of space under lid. Over a few days they blend with house bees. Then African queen moves in and starts to lay. A small brood pattern starts, then they will kill melifra queen. They will do this on a hive that has 5 to 6 frames and a perfect pattern.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

lancaster CA temps get down to 10 degree f Africans survive well through winter. Swarm size will be size of a hard ball. First year of their arrival I put out 50 mating nucs. 35 came up African. Quick test to see if a swarm is dangerous. With vail on exhale on swarm. On insurptation, what I see is very small swarm attaches to lid, migratory cover. Africans move slowly into hive by way of space under lid. Over a few days they blend with house bees. Then African queen moves in and starts to lay. A small brood pattern starts, then they will kill melifra queen. They will do this on a hive that has 5 to 6 frames and a perfect pattern.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

aspera... now I really do not know how large the ahb problem will become in the next few years, but I do suspect (which is alluded to by bullyeye) much of the problem will be a quasi-self inflicted gun shot wound of beekeepers (migragratory) shooting other beekeepers as the problem is spread along the corridors of the interstate highway system.

the state beekeeper here says that he does not see the ahb spreading into east and or deep east texas nearly as speedily as they did in south and western texas. he speculates that they do not appreciate the higher humidity (I would suspect they just don't like the red bugs). It does seem that much of the worst problems are being experienced by beekeepers in places where rain fall and humidity is extremely limited.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

jjgbee,
Thanks for the input. I think as we go forward, people drawing lines in the sand based on temperature and the like will become a thing of the past. I will gladly go on the record and state that any concieved idea of a line such as the Kansas/Oklahoma border is hogwash. This drawing a line in the sand amounts to someone needing to say something, and it sounds good for the moment. And of course now we have "other" experts claiming the kansas/nebraska border...

I have seen claims in the east say the nothern border of North Carolina, and one study claims the Canadian border. Oh, well.

The travels of the bee in the southern hemisphere was based on natural migration. The migration and establishment of AHB's will be greatly enhanced with migratory beekeepers and commercial bee sales. Something not seen in the southern hemisphere, on the level we do here.


Insurptation is something beekeepers need to be aware of.

I really discount the whole comb width angle of why africans will not survive cold weather. When they take over existing colony, whether a managed colony or a feral one, they do not rebuild the comb. Again, I'll chalk this up to someone needing to sound like they know something. The fact that a AHB colony overwintered in New York last year shows why this "idea" is wrong and not practical.

-------------
I'll equate all the AHB talking points about the same as the experts telling me about the SHB.

A strong hive will keep SHB out. Wrong!
SHB's need to pupate in the ground. Wrong!
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The experts so-called predictions and observations is wrong many times when dealing with new problems. Comb width theories and kansas/oklahoma borders will come to proven wrong also.

Just remember...You heard it here on Beesource first!....(Unless you are ahead of the game, and have already found statements like this wrong from the start.)...


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

bjorn sezs:
The experts so-called predictions and observations is wrong many times when dealing with new problems. Comb width theories and kansas/oklahoma borders will come to proven wrong also.

tecumseh replies:
well once again your anti intellectual anti knowledge bias is more than a by-line.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Tecumseh, what with the attack? My comments made no reference to your statements. Are you that upset that your on my ignore list and you have no ability any longer to send me PM's making statements with name calling, that would be improper here on the main forum? Please tecumseh, I am trying to ignore you. Can you do the same?

Of all the statements and observations I have listed, this is your total contribution to this thread in response.... a personal jab for no reason. 

Have a good day.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

I have a copy of The Africanized Honey Bee by Marla Spivak, and others. For those who do not know, Spivak developed the Minnesota Hygienic, and others. 

The book is a collection of chapters by different researchers many of whom are located in south and Central America and have worked with the AHBs for many years. Topics include swarming patterns and migration distances for such swarms. AHBs most southern migration and likely factors that influence it along with the role of migratory beekeepers in South America. The list goes on but it has been a year or so since I have read it. 

The book is somewhat old 1991 but since it documents what happened in South and Central America it is still relevant today. It was right on the mark when it comes to Mitochondria DNA. 

It is rather dry reading but worth the read if you can manage. I believe it is available for on-line reading now.




> So please regard my contributions with the best intentions as just a member of this forum.


Hah, hah, hah, hah! Ple plea please stop you are killing me!.

I think he was saying your tone needs to change with some of your post. You do come across as condescending and arrogant at times. Wording like "Wrong!" and the use of  tend to make people think this. I am sure it is not your intentention to come across like this though.

[ October 26, 2006, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: magnet-man ]


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Magnet,
So adding my own observations and opinions to the thread, becuase it states I feel another is wrong in yet to be proven "ideas", somehow thats wrong in the realm of converstaion these days? I made my statements and said I'll stand behind them.

Equating one observation with an accomplishment of another is wrong on many levels. 

As for you magnet....was it not you who just yesterday cried for those not having anything positive to contribute, to "take it to tailgater'. (This could be read on the "Ethics" thread concerning catching bees.) Whats with the change of heart today. Yesterday your all holier-than-thou, crying for people to be civilized and keep the post as positive and contributive...today your rationalizing and justifying someone elses personal attacks. And then throw in your own to boot!

[ October 26, 2006, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

I really should not have posted the first part because it was not constructive I do apologize for that. But the second part is quite sincere. I think people would be much more open to your post if you watch you tone.

This note was added 10/26/06 at 7:20.
*I do apologize for that.*

I do often edit my notes for grammer and spelling mistakes. I will also edit right after I post if I think of additional or new information.

[ October 26, 2006, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: magnet-man ]


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Its hard to keep up magnet when you keep changing/editing your posts...  

Sorry magnet, "Wrong!" is actually waht I meant to say. Thats just me. I listened to the "experts' make statements about SHB's. And they were WRONG!

Just in this thread alone, one claims to of heard one "expert claim the kansas/oklahoma border, while another heard someone else calim the kansas/nebraska border. In the east, I have heard two experts claim different hings. The northern North Carolina border, and another the Canadian border.

Give me a break! Is it so wrong to suggest that nobody had a stinkin clue at this time! Is that so personal to you that someone would question the so-called experts? 

And then to justify one claim with acocmplishments in another area of research, and base don a book 15 years old,.....all the while attcking anothers persons contribution to the forum....

And if anyone incorrectly  feels my posts are arrogant or condescending.... please feel free the urge to refrain yourself in responding directly to me. I think the forum deserves this much.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Just thought another  might help....

[ October 26, 2006, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I see your a person of reason. I too will back away with perhaps a cooler head. Thank you magnet. I wish everyone could do such things more often....including myself.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

bjorn sezs:
Of all the statements and observations I have listed, this is your total contribution to this thread in response.... a personal jab for no reason. 

tecumseh replies:
no I am not attacking you per se bjorn but your attitute that you quite obviously know more about the stated subject that all those folks in all those state educational institution from coast to coast (and by extension around the globe). Once again... I am only attacking your anit informational bias.

you then (self inflicted would I would suggest) reveal you lack of abilitiy (or willingness) to engage in any meanfull discussion by placing everyone who does not agree with you narrow short sighted OPINION on your ignore list. never a better example of courage well worn on your sleave have I ever seen.

in normal conversation I would typically make some statement about you and your horse.... but never mind.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Anywho, lets get back to AHB. I work in research and don't need anyone to tell me how valuable or what its limitations are. I've read a great deal of Winston's writing which are authoratative descriptions of AHB biology in South America. What I ideally want is something describing protocols for honey production, queen breeding, temperment selection and equipment modifications.


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

> The experts so-called predictions and observations is wrong many times when dealing with new problems.


"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." 
Niels Bohr


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Tecumseh, I always welcomed your PM's. Not untill you started name calling and commenting in ways that would never be allowed on the main forum did I add you to the "ignore list".. I would posts them myself if I could, but Barry has a thing about PM's making it to the board. In any case, you know exactly what I mean. And for the record....your the only one on the "ignore list". So your inclusive catagory of "everyone" consists really of just you!

I will make every effort to ignore you in the forum. I think this fair enough, from both sides? You openly state you are "attacking" me in your last post, based on your need to defend the "folks" of higher learning, against my type words. I did not realize you were the defender of such a group.

Have a good day.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Aspera, PM me your address and I will send you my copy of "The Africanized Honey Bee". It may be 15 years since it was published but it has a lot of the information that you are looking for. As I mentioned earlier each chapter is written by a different researcher. Most have studied the AHB longer than any American researcher.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>I really discount the whole comb width angle of why africans will not survive cold weather. When they take over existing colony, whether a managed colony or a feral one, they do not rebuild the comb. Again, I'll chalk this up to someone needing to sound like they know something. The fact that a AHB colony overwintered in New York last year shows why this "idea" is wrong and not practical.

I perhaps should have specified in feral colonies, but I thought that was obvious.

>Just in this thread alone, one claims to of heard one "expert claim the kansas/oklahoma border, while another heard someone else calim the kansas/nebraska border.

The panel discussion of five speakers included Dr's Chip Taylor and Keith Delaplane, and their point was that there is not going to be a 'line in the sand'. The AHB front will be a gray area that will change with the weather conditions.

My statement was:
>>The 'experts' think that the northern advance will be the Ks/Ne border on mild winters, and freeze back to the Ks/Ok border during really cold winters. <<


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## buz (Dec 8, 2005)

I only have past 15 years to go by. I have collected swarms/cut bee trees/done cutouts. In the past six or so I've concluded that these ferrals adversley affect my managed hives. I've gone to keeping a seperate yard for the newcomers.

My elevation is just below a Mile high-in a latitude connecting
Los Angeles /Amarillo /Columbia. Winters get cold and we have some snow.

AHB are quick to respond to perceived danger in such numbers and with ferocity. Insurpation is a phenomenom--they are just here for the party, when the frig is empty they move on.

The big bee operator in our area says they are all AHB and doesn't even try to distinguish. You just have to protect yourself. News reports include death of pets/livestock/homeowners. There is a ban on shipments of bees out of Arizona- other regions too.

I have a screen cone on the Bible Church in town.
Four weeks now and they still shoot out like a bullet. Been there all summer--till they took ofense at the care takers movements. 

I've had calls to come clean up after people have been taken to hospital, big machine operators, ranchers. Cutting bee trees in full outfit is uncomfortable. People like my honey but can't imagine how I get it.

I'd say protecting my colonies is the challenge. I haven't always been so good at that. I think spacing them farther apart helps when it's time to work them. I've seen those four on a pallet set ups-- not around here. 

I think I once read a post suggesting that beeks have a role to play in catching/requeening AHB and thus melowing the genetics. So far I really haven't seen any watered down version. The queen can't be just a little AHB.

Thnx for reading. I don't know what all the personality stuff is about. Tell the bees g'night.


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## jdb5949 (Oct 13, 2004)

The University of Arkansas has developed an interesting manual about the AHB that suggests beeks do not have to change many procedures.
Go to http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publications/default.asp and look at MP451 in the searchable publication database.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

University of AK needs to come out to the real world befor they write a book on Africans. .Be sure to bring their bullet proof bee suit, Lots of leather and the OSHA manual on protecting your employees from heat exaustion.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>University of AK... 

Alaska is not in much dangr of AHB. Are you worried Dick?


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## empilolo (Oct 7, 2006)

I wonder what gives people the idea the African Bees do not like wet feet.



> The climate of the Niger Delta is characterized by a long rainy season from March-April through October. Precipitation increases from the north of the delta (with an average of 2,500 mm) to the coastal area where mean annual rainfall averages around 4,000 mm, making it one of the wettest areas in Africa.


and there are bees there, right down to the coast. 

There are many different climatic conditions in Africa, from the very wet to the very dry and anything in between. The bees take them all in their stride.

Although frost is rare in Africa, colder temperatures exist. The delimiting issue in my view is hive/cluster temperature regulation required for brood survival. Although temperatures during the day may run higher than 35 C in Africa quite alright, temperatures at night can be far below that.

If they can handle lower temperatures without problems, why should freezing point of water be such a milestone as it is made out to be? How much can they slow down their metabolism to cope with a temperate zone winter should be more relevant to know perhaps.

Another point is that in almost 5 decades of rampage in the Americas, the African genes have NOT been diluted as one might expect.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

aspera sezs:
What I ideally want is something describing protocols for honey production, queen breeding, temperment selection and equipment modifications. 

tecumseh replies:
exactly. 

to magnet man...
and while you are feeling so free with your information magnet man could you forward the same information you sent to aspera (or a web address is just fine also).

and thanks in advance....

empililo adds:
I wonder what gives people the idea the African Bees do not like wet feet.

tecumseh replies:
it is my understanding that what we are talking about here is a cross between a brazilian bee and an african bee. as these things typically work out since this cross has some down side we have decide to refer to it as african rather than brazilian. can't really figure out the logic of that decision, but that's how it goes.

but just to give you empiliolo a bit fuller understanding of east texas... the area is low rolling land typically covered by pine trees on the higher land and mixed hardwood timber in the lower river bottoms. the low lands are subject to flooding just about year round. the areas climate is generally mild, with freezing temperature posssible but generally rare. humiditity levels are typically high all year long.

in regards to raising european honey bees in this area nectar flows are typically a serious limiting factor except in the spring time. which is to say that a monoculture pine forest represent little that a honeybee might find as useful. there are likely a million hives overwintered there in the winter/sping (largely maintained via a large syrup bucket).

my statement was that the state bee inspector did suggested to me that the hybrid did not prosper quite so well in the humid areas of east texas. there is likely a mix of conditions that makes this so.... if his observation is correct (and I would assume he has a few more data points than I).

hope that helps....


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

bjorn sezs:
And for the record....your the only one on the "ignore list".

tecumseh replies:
how special...


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## empilolo (Oct 7, 2006)

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong. I am interested in this subject.

You are looking at *crosses* between Western Honey Bee (Apis mellifera) *Races*,

namely the African Race (subspecie) introduced to Brazil about 5 decades ago

- Apis mellifera scutellata

and any of the European Races (subspecies) introduced to the Americas by early settlers

- Apis mellifera ligustica
- Apis mellifera carnica
- Apis mellifera caucasica
- Apis mellifera mellifera

to list those I am sure of (perhaps some of the other European subspecies too). The crosses, mongrels or mutts, are now being commonly referred to as "Africanized".

I have been to Houston, Galveston and Florida. The humidity is comparable to what you will find in large parts of Western Africa's coastal zone, where scutellata is endemic, thriving. 

Scutellata is found everywhere in sub sahara Africa, from the arid Sahel zone to the tropical rain forest, East African highlands down to South Africa (where it can get rather cold). In short, scutellata is spread/thriving through an enormous variety of climatic zones.

I wanted to point this out, because I feel humidity would be an unlikely reason for the africanized mongrels doing less well in those east Texas areas. In any case, scutellata is most adaptable in their native lands, so adaptability to a broad range of climatic conditions in the Americas might be expected too.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

empilolo,
Thank you for the input. I agree with what you say and feel you have a grasp on the issue.


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## buz (Dec 8, 2005)

Empilolo-
Are members of the scutellata known for their strong defensiveness--are they good foragers--?

What I'm asking is whether you find them easy to work. The 'mongrels' here present many hardships for beekeepers who are accustomed to the melifera strain.
Thnx for your comments,


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Tecumseh, I am actually sending him my hard copy of the book. I will see if I can find the on-line copy location.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Found the on-line link. There is a free trail to the sight.


> The No Risk Trial Offer gives you free access for seven days. If you do not cancel by the end of seven days, your credit card will be charged the quarterly subscription fee of $44.95, and the subscription will renew each quarter until you cancel.


It is very dry reading and I not sure someone could manage to read it on line. I would join print it out and think if I wanted to continue my membership.

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=89745930

[ October 27, 2006, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: magnet-man ]


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## empilolo (Oct 7, 2006)

buz. beekeeping in the whole of Africa is in it's infancy, sort of. Even in South Africa, where it has become an industry, there are no queen breeders, etc.

Studies of scutellata are scarce. I have spent some time to trace whatever I was able to lay my hands on and I summarize it little.

Scutellata has not been really bred selectively as have the European races; one might even say that the different European races are a result of breeding (like other domestic animals, where you have many different races).

Scutellata is native to the whole of sub-Saharan Africa. That is a very large area. It includes a wide range of different climatic zones. One may assume that Scutellata is not as homogenous a breed as any of the European races. Different strains probably exist, with different characteristics, but there is no hard information available.

With regard to their defensiveness, I can but say that there is nothing I have not read; from gentle/docile ones to the most vicious/deadly insects.

My personal opinion is that

- scutellata is being widely kept in RSA and is considered a good honey producer/forager.

- appropriate management practices could be (or exist in RSA already) worked out. The direction I want to explore is the use of top bar hives (horizontal), but with frames. The top bars to close completely, no open gaps upwards. The frames not so much to give strength to the comb, but to prevent the combs being attached to the hive sides, thus making comb removal more "disturbing" to the bees, thereby triggering defensive reactions. Softly, softly. Remove honey combs when cells are capped to stimulate honey storing, but leave the brood nest alone as much as possible. Somewhere along these lines.

- selective breeding should produce strains with desirable characteristics; good foragers, breeders and gentler disposition.

Perhaps you would consider experimenting a bit along these lines. You probably have/can find mongrels that are less aggressive. Keep and breed these, eliminate the aggressive ones. Use some old Langstroh frames in a TBH with straight sides, perhaps close the gap upwards.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

empilolo sezs:
Scutellata is native to the whole of sub-Saharan Africa.

tecumseh ask:
so what would you suggest as a reason as to why they are confined to sub saharan africa and not all of africa?


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## empilolo (Oct 7, 2006)

I never tried crossing the Sahara on my own, so I would not know.

But the sub alone still is a mighty big place as it is, quite a bit bigger than the US, actually.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>So far I really haven't seen any watered down version. The queen can't be just a little AHB.

And:

>in almost 5 decades of rampage in the Americas, the African genes have NOT been diluted as one might expect.

This is the prevailing opinion. Are there any good explanations for why this is so?


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## empilolo (Oct 7, 2006)

I think the best explanation I have found was published in "Bee Culture" under the title "The African honey bee" I, II & III. I tried to put a link before and messed up. The best I can offer is go to

http://www.bioweb.uncc.edu/Faculty/Schneider/index.htm

scroll down to Selected Publications. 1, 2 and 3 is what you want. Downloadable as PDF files.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

> Are there any good explanations for why this is so?


I think I read somewhere that there must be some unknown incompatibility between the two races that make the hybrids a little less viable than purer stock. A little like a cross between a donkey and a horse. Mules are mostly sterile but not always. The hybrids are not like this but the mule merely serves as an example I have heard there may be sperm competition going on from researchers but the two that I have access to dont have any first hand knowledge. 


The inability to absorb and retain EHB genes and traits is the big unknown question. 

[ October 28, 2006, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: magnet-man ]


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## empilolo (Oct 7, 2006)

based on the above mentioned article, it is not a _single factor_ alone. They reason

swarming behavior
Population growth is more rapid in AHB. African colonies can increase 16-fold per year, as compared with a mere 3 to 6-fold of EHB. Numerical advantage.

negative heterosis 
is controversial amongst scientists, but probably a factor. In many animals, hybrids show more vigor than their parents, which is called heterosis. There are indications that crosses between the African with ay of the European races produces less vigorous (hybrid) offspring. Only the first generation following a cross are hybrids.

mating advantages of African drones{/U]
matings with European drones decline over time because

*-*AHB colonies produce more drones.
*-*some of these drones move into EHB colonies, suppressing drone rearing 
there.
*-*higher rates of queen losses in AHB. Laying workers producing more drones.
*-*there are indications that AHB sperm is more vigorous, resulting in more AHB 
offspring.

An African drone mating advantage would mean a rapid loss of European paternal genes and may be an important factor in AHB ability to displace European bees.

African-patriline advantages during Queen replacements
when new queens are being raised by a colony, african-patriline virgin queens emerging from their cells appear to be the superior sister queen killers.

Nest usurpation{/U]
is where small African swarms take over another colony. The AHB queen killing the resident queen in the process (could be any colony, AHB or EHB).

This is a summary of the major factors as outlined in the article published in Bee Culture mentioned in my earlier post. I feel that better understanding of the AHB issue may go a long way to deal with the problem.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

What is interesting is the further from the leading edge the mitochondria DNA is almost exclusively from the African lines. That is down right wierd.

[ October 28, 2006, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: magnet-man ]


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Empilolo, thanks for posting. Forgive my ignorance, but I thought that West Africa was blessed with multiple races of indigenous honeybee. Are scutes the only one kept?


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I've made a few negative comments about various research myself which I regret when I see where this thread is going. I think we often forget that there is something in nature that is totally random and it creates a variable not researcher can ever control. Mutation and evolution. We can use it, but we can't really control it. I doubt that genetic engineering will solve that problem either.

Anyway, lets hope the evolutionary development of this thread does not lead to a strain of Africanized Beekeeper.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Genetic engineering can only solve such problems in the sense that civil engineering has solved the gravity problem. Genetic engineering is neither as dangerous nor as beneficial as the media depicts it. The great discoveries in biology tell us how things work and are usually curiosity driven, but not revolutionary. Revolutionary is when that 20,000+ swarm of AHB settles into your porch awning.....

[ October 29, 2006, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Aspera ]


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## empilolo (Oct 7, 2006)

magnet-man. Yes, not what one would usually expect. A few invaders 5 decades ago and the genetics still going strong, despite crossing with true bred lines of the European races constantly. Weird and a bit scary, perhaps.


Aspera. Research in Africa is scant. Libraries, where they exist, are not what you are used to.

In Sub-Sahara (South of), scutellata is endemic (and I think is identical to adansonii). There are a few races with relatively small geographical spread in East Africa and the Cape bee which is also on the way to "fame" in SA. As elsewhere, there are other bees, mainly solitary and not kept. Bees are usually killed for their honey, in some instances humans provide a hive for them - but still kill them at the end of a productive cycle - and only in the rare instance keep bees the way you think about keeping bees.

sierrabees. Maybe AHB is a case of "if you can't beat em, join em". Or in other words, the sooner people start selectively breeding AHB for desirable traits (as I would guess is done in Brazil) - such as gentleness and productivity - the better. You may get your Africanized Beekeepers yet.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>In Sub-Sahara (South of), scutellata is endemic (and I think is identical to adansonii). 

Interestingly Kerr called what he had adansonii for a while. Only later changing to calling it scutellata.


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## empilolo (Oct 7, 2006)

Maybe Brontosaurus means anything to you. No more Brontosuarus, the correct name is Apatosaurus today.

Scientific names are usually bestowed by the discoverer, respectively the first scientist to descibe a new specie, or genus. The discovery of Apatosaurus did not make any waves, but good old Bronto did. That is what we knew him as when I was a kid. But someone had given the beast a name already earlier, only nobody kind of noticed.

Science did a clean up not too long ago and the first given names were made official. Out went Bronto and in came Apato. Looks like the same happened to Adansonii.


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