# V-MITE need help please!



## Bubba (Mar 17, 2006)

O.K.
I just went to look at the hive and saw a freshly emmerged bee walk off the landing board and fall off to the ground. Thinking that this was odd I picked it up and looked at it. The wing's were very defformed more like slivers rather that the wide wing's. Well looked close and I saw a funny patch on the bee. Well i touched it tnd it moved! So I took out my knife and it was a V-MITE so do I need to start treating now or wait till later in the fall? I currently have on a super over 2 deep boxe's full of bee's the super is full of chew foundation  Any how do I need to go ahead and take the super off and treat for mite's. I have some thymol and FGMO mixed up but I dont have a fogger yet should I get one now or can i wait a little while?


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## Bubba (Mar 17, 2006)

Oh yea This was the first bee with funny wing's that I have seen.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Bubba, you need some mite counts, like yesterday. At the very least open some drone brood and see what you find. You really want to find out what your mite load is. In the mean time, I'd start treating. Bees with deformed wings are a pretty good indication that you've got a severe mite infestation. Given the time of the year (mid-summer) I wouldn't wait.

I also don't think Thymol and FGMO are going to be much help at this stage of the game, I'd be looking to use powdered sugar or more likely, Oxalic Acid. If your super is full of chewed foundation, I'd pull it and get busy. It doesn't sound like they're planning on putting any honey in it any time soon.


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

If you see mites and deformed wings, you want to start something right away. You can dose them with powderd immediately without harming your brood. That will detached mites on bees. They will groom themselves for the next few days. Its really easy. Take off your honey supers, leave the bottom brood box, put a cup of sugar on top and brush the sugar between the frames. STack your box and do it again. You can even do your honey supers. The next day (don't wait too long), take apart your supers and clean all of the sugar off your bottom board. Or take off the bottom board and let sugar fall to a sheet on a ground, then restack. You can do this every 5 to 7 days to catch emerging mites and I would do it 4 times. This will not kill brood. OA does, so you might want to wait a few months till the queen stops (or slows down) in laying. I have pictures at www.countryrubes.com
Sincerely,
Janet Brisson


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## Bubba (Mar 17, 2006)

George 
What product has oxsalic acid in it? I have thought about ordering some of either Mite awayII or API LIFE VARR. Which would be a better solution?


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Bubba oxalic acid is a natural acid and has no products in it. IMO the evaporation of this acid is the best way to kill the mites. There is no harm to bees, Queen or brood.
Mite away is formic acid and hard on bees and queen. If it is to hot, it can kill a lot of bees and the queen. 
API LIFE VARR is a Thymol product and reduced the mites during summer but you still should treat with oxalic at least one time in winter when there is no brood.


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## Bubba (Mar 17, 2006)

This is my first year as a beekeeper. so I am unshure of what to do. Should I use the API LIFE VARR now and in the winter use the oxalic acid? Where can i get some oxalic acid from?

[ July 30, 2006, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Bubba ]


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

Do as 2rubes suggested, USE POWDRED SUGAR, one of the reasons mites are building up an imunity to chemicals is the fact that every one sees it as a easy way to treat. 
IMHO, follow 2rubes advice and directions on his web site, take the time to dust with the powdered sugar and get some screened bottom boards. I use both and have not yet seen a deformed bee this season or a mite for that matter.
Personialy I refused to use any chemicals in or near my hives.

[ July 30, 2006, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: SilverFox ]


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

There is no immunity to OA. It, like powdered sugar, coats the bees. Unlike powdered sugar, rather than just dislodging the mites, it kills them by destroying there mouth parts. OA can be found at Ace Hardware as wood bleach. Check the label, there is also another wood bleach that is not OA.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Bubba . . .

Please give us your mite counts!


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

This is not time to handle mites. When you look at just emerged bees you see mites on their neck if they are plenty. If not, sleep your nights in peace. 

If you have in Alabama a real brood brake handle your hives with oxalic trickling. It is easy and safe method. If you hive has one or two frames some brood you may take those off and destroy brood with their mites. After that you give trickling and you have quite pure hive.

Mites are now inside brood caps and counting or handling does not help just now. 

Brake about twenty drone pupae and look how much you see mites in cells. 

But give cure during winter. It affects for nex summer.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>When you look at just emerged bees you see mites on their neck if they are plenty . . .

Looking for mites ON the bee is NOT recommended. It is best to look for mites on a sticky board.

MOST mites ARE found in brood, when brood is available. But, during a "brood break" (starting now), more and more mites will be outside the cells. Its during this "broodless period" that very, very effective control can be achieved w/ proper treatment. Reducing mite levels by mid-August (and maybe again in fall) will give hive a very nice start next spring.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

I gotta say Dave, I can both understand and relate to what Finman is saying. His premise is that it's pointless to treat for mites when the bees are rearing brood and that the time to kill mites is before they've had a chance to breed.

The concept is simple: Every mite you kill in the fall (or winter or spring for that matter) is 20 (or 30? or 40?) mites you don't have to contend with later on in the year. Ideally, summer time, when the hives are booming and the bees are making honey is not the time to be worrying about mites, applying ineffective treatments, or creating broodless periods so you can effectively treat.

Finally, he throws out the concept of removing brood so you can get that broodless condition in a hurry so you can treat effectively









I can't quite relate to his visual-observation of mites on emerging bees either, but the rest of his take on mites is right on


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## Bubba (Mar 17, 2006)

Oop's Sorry that I havent posted anything in a few day's. I ordered a sbb monday. I went through the hive this mourning to check thing's out. I opened up several drone brood cell's and only saw a few mites maybe 3. Out of 25 cell's.I expected to see more than that. I havent seen any more deformed wing's. I was thinking that I also have SHB's and maybe a SHB might have had something to do with that one bee and a varroa was just on the deformed bee.

I havent done a drop count yet I am going to get on that just as soon as I get my sbb. I also ordered some apiguard that is a thymol based product. But before I apply it I am going to do a powdered shugar dusting. 

I removed the empty super and I had been feeding some honey that come from the tree that I removed them from. So does anyone else have any opinion?


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Dawe:"Looking for mites ON the bee is NOT recommended."

Why not when you have your eyes? 

I have had 25 years mites and I see them with eyes. I recommend to use your eyes. Here in internet people say what ever and you rush to hives and put them uppside down.

I do not recommend sugar power or not other tricks when it it is taime to forage honey. What you can do with mites in the middle of summer. 

You just wait that proper time and drop mites.

Varroa is very easy to handle if you have brood brake. I have seen about 5 mites this year in my 20 hives. I give trickling before winter. I follow mites from drone combs too and that is enough for me. I have had difficult times with varroa but now it is under good control.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

That is what is nice about powered sugar you can treat when the flow is on, just pull your supers and treat the brood boxes and replace supers. BY-BY MITES, and no contamination of honey do to chemicals.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I opened up several drone brood cell's and only saw a few mites maybe 3. Out of 25 cell's.I expected to see more than that.

3 out of 25 represents a 10% infestation level of your drone brood. That's not insignificant. Your 24 hour drop counts should be interesting.

>That is what is nice about powered sugar you can treat when the flow is on

So you pull your supers, dump a couple of cups of powdered sugar in your brood boxes, and then put your supers back on. Does that mean that none of that sugar will make it into your supers or that if some does, nobody cares? It just seems to me that some of that sugar is going to end up inside the bees and some of it is going to end up in your supers. I also imagine it would be hard to detect adulteration of honey with powdered sugar.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

I personally believe the amount of powdered sugar ending up in the honey would be miniscule at worst. I think it likely would be difficult to detect. 

It's one thing to feed sugar syrup to bees and have it stored in supers with real honey. Dusting bees with powdered sugar is quite another thing. A tiny, tiny bit of powdered sugar possibly ingested by bees and mixed with their saliva to liquify it, then passed around from bee to bee before it gets stored in a super is, to me, a non-issue. There might be more contamination to honey from bees working empty soda cans and such as would be caused from powdered sugar. My $0.02 of opinion. 

[ August 03, 2006, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

George Fergusson . . .

>His premise is that it's pointless to treat for mites when the bees are rearing brood . . .

Yes, When broodless, ALL the mites can be affected. I disagree that ONLY broodless periods are when mites CAN BE treated. I used (bad word) strips in July and killed 15,341 mites. Every mite IN THE HIVE was killed along w/ ones comming into hive.


>the time to kill mites is before they've had a chance to breed.

As a general statement, I agree. But in context w/ the problem outlined in original post, how does this apply?


>The concept . . .

Yep, I agree (and well said







) But again, how does this apply to Bubba's needs NOW? 


Finman . . .

>Dawe:"Looking for mites ON the bee is NOT recommended."

As a method of detection VISUAL INSPECTION (looking at bees) of adult bees is NOT recommended. Because mites often crawl between the hard segments of a bees abdomen to feed (mites are normally found tucked between 3rd and 4th abdominal sclerites (segmental plates) predominantly on left-hand side [Ref 16, p134]), leaving only a small portion of the mite exposed. Varroa can also move fairly quickly from the top of bee (especially on thorax) underneath to where the bees legs are attached. In this position the mites are much harder to see. It can be difficult to see mites when bees are taken out of the hive and carefully examined individually [http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/pests-diseases/animals/varroa/guidelines/control.htm  p31, Accessed 8/1/05].

 Photo - Varroa on bees, see BC, 2/06, p20.

It can be said w/ certainty that if significant number of mites are detected by visual inspection, it is a sign that the mite population is dangerously high and urgent treatment is required [http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/pests-diseases/animals/varroa/guidelines/control.htm  p31, Accessed 8/1/05].

[ August 03, 2006, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Dave W ]


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

To whom it may concern . . .

You can use Apistan strips DURING flow, just remove honey supers (like w/ ALL treatments).

Sorry, I just had to say it!









AND, NO I'M NOT PUSHING THE USE OF CHEMICALS.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

GEORGE: Check out www.countryrubes.com it will instruct you on how to apply powered sugar. A suggestion is also to get Screened Bottom Boards when possible.
Yes powered sugar can be used during a flow.
Read what Dave W wrote.
Finnman: experiment a little with non-traditional methods of treating for mites.  You may find that it works 

[ August 03, 2006, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: SilverFox ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>killed 15,341 mites.

If anyone but you claimed such a thing, I'd be dubious.

>Every mite IN THE HIVE was killed along w/ ones comming into hive.

OK, you'll have to refresh my memory Dave. I recall discussion, I reviewed your numbers and I put together a seat-o-pants analysis of your apistan treatment, I don't recall concluding you'd killed ALL your mites. I wonder if I could find that thread... I think it's this one:

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000566;p=1

A good thread that was... worth reviewing.

>As a general statement, I agree. But in context w/ the problem outlined in original post, how does this apply?

I guess "as a general statement" it applies as in "keep this in mind for the future". It certainly doesn't do any good to suggest Bubba kill his mites 6 months ago. It is good for hiim to keep that idea in mind for the future.


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## Bubba (Mar 17, 2006)

Good point George

This is my fault for not being proactive against mites!  I should have had them on a sbb 3 month's ago. Anyhow I just hope that with a dusting of powdered shugar and then a dose of Apiguard that I will have my mite problem under controll before winter. Normally I wouldent waunt any chemical's in the hive but I think that I need to be very aggressive with this problem so I dont loose the hive.


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

What's the temperature at the moment? At the sort of temperatures we've been having in the UK (90-100 at times), I believe it can cause queen problems (sorry, I can't find the article, so I can't be more specific), or drive the bees out of the hive. If I had that situation right now, I'd use oxalic acid, trickled over the frames for a quick kill, and use Apiguard in a month or two when the weather cools down.


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## Bubba (Mar 17, 2006)

Well my stuff got here today and I painted my sbb I am going to install it tomorrow. I already put the APIGUARD in the hive and am going to give some mite count's soon.

Robert: The apiguard says it's good up to 105 degrees f.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Hey silverfox. I have had mites 25 years and I have no troubles. When I read their discussion, it makes no sence. No it is summer and honey comes in. Let bees work. 

Varroa does not command my beekeeping. It is there to be and not more HAH! Counting mites all the summer HAH! I have more interesting to do. Looking TV is better.


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## Bubba (Mar 17, 2006)

Well I broke down the hive this afternoon to put on the sbb. When I looked at the origional bottom board it was littered with dead V-mites. I did not count but from the ammount I saw I estimate the 24 hr drop at around 250 plus or minus some. I put on the sbb and put a polotician sign in it to be able to pull it out to count mites.
The one thing that I did notice was I coated the sign with some FGMO and pulled it out a hour later and there was 4 dead shb's on it and 3 dead v-mites. So I guess you can still kill shb's without a shb trap.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

Well so far I've not seen any signs of mites in my hives, treating with powered sugar and sbb's, that doesn't mean they're not there though, and I know it, I'll treat up to just piror to our first frost after I pull all my supers (mid Oct).
I'll treat once a week w/powered sugar, from what I've seen, IMHO, it works.
Finman all I'm saying is give it a try, who knows maybe it will greatly reduce your mite count to near zero, I don't know.
Just give it a try.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.

To Dave W

You may see good advices from tens of people even they have not mites. You need not do all what they say.

I have never calculated my mites. I know that they are there. I see often them with my naced eye when checking brood area. From drone combs I specially check the level. 

In winter I give them cure and it works. My hives go fine. I do not try to find mite free stock because it is impossible to hobbyist. 

These advice what people have wrintten here in this forum, no once can follow them and keep bees alive or get honey.

I get average yield 160 lbs per hive and I think that it goes fine. Mite level is low and I keep it. 4 years ago I had fluvinate resistant mite stock and it made bad results. 

You can really use your eyes if you have them. I recommend that.

I understand that calculation. It meant before that if you need not handle mites every year with apistan. But oxalic acid makes no harm to bees. Just give to bees nec and mites are gone.
.


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## Bubba (Mar 17, 2006)

Well my 24 hr drop count is still around 100. Wow I dident realize there were so many of thoes little blood suckers in there!


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Hi, Ive been lurking for the past few weeks, weve been busy: going to W.A.S. Western Apicultural Society Conference {W.A.S.} (want to see my notes? http://countryrubes.com/images/WAS_Conference_July_24_2006_Buellton.PDF with the farm and then working on the bottom boards; Ive only been glancing at the forums. Right now Im sitting here in the parking lot of Home Depot, while my hubby buys wood for bottom boards. We got this Sprint Broadband and you get internet everywhere. Now, if I dont run out of battery...
Higher mite numbers on your sticky board could also depends on how long you wait after your treatments. Randy Oliver says you have a large fall for 3 days after using OA. My counts were always high for 3 or 4 days after using powdered sugar, and you can see bees grooming. Im not sure how long the fumes are being released or potent in Apiguard, you put it in 6 days ago, it could still be knocking down emerging mites,hence the high counts. The counts don't count because it's the Apiguard working. Keep up your treatments, whatever you use. Once you get those counts lowered, less treatments. Maybe even once a year like Finman suggests. 
After this August 3 part treatment, I plan to treat as we see something, as opposed to what we are doing now, treating between the honey flows.
A friend of mind who has done powdered sugar the whole year, and also had low mite counts, just did an OA treatment to make sure none were hiding and got about 20 mites. He said he might do it again in November, and that might be it for the year. 
Good luck with your hives,
Janet

[ August 14, 2006, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: 2rubes ]


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## Bubba (Mar 17, 2006)

142 today

You can shure see where the brood nest is. The mites are everywhere around the brood nest but are less where the stores are.


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## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

That's one of the pluses of SBB, you can see the size and health of the hive by looking at the wax cappings and droppings. We have pictures on this page http://countryrubes.com/instructionspage4/anotherreason.html
Janet


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Bubba . . .

Just for the record, your mite counts are WITH "Apiguard" in the hive, right????


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## Bubba (Mar 17, 2006)

Yes that is correct. It is the first tray or a 2 tray series that equal's one treatment. You leave the first in 10 to 12 days and then remove it and place in another and remove it after 10 to 12 days. It is a very easy treatment


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Bubba . . .

It would be nice to know the TOTAL number of mites that are remove throughout the entire treatment period. That number might give you an indication of how bad things were before you started.









Sure wish you had a "few" drop numbers BEFORE you started killing mites w/ the Apiguard. Those numbers, along w/ numbers during treatment could be compared to determine "effectiveness" of your treatment. 

Oh well, please keep counting


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## Bubba (Mar 17, 2006)

97 today
This is the first day below 100









Hummm lest see I think the total drop count is somewhere near 1,127 plus or minus a few that I might have counted or not counted.

Yea I wish I had a few drop count's before I started the treatment's. But Oh well there seem's to be allot more activity at the hive lately.

[ August 16, 2006, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Bubba ]


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## Bubba (Mar 17, 2006)

Oh yea I still got another tray to put in the hive. Cant wait to see another round of dead v mites


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.

Bubba, are you nursing bees or mites? 

.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Finman . . .

>are you nursing bees or mites?

Please try to remember 25 years ago when you started w/ bees; everyting was new, you probably had many questions too.

Bubba is just like ALL of US, he is in the "learning phase", he wants to know about mites AND bees.

Your experience and knowledge could be very helpful. Please help him learn BOTH.


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