# Foundationless frames. Novice w/questiones



## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

I've seen very little drone comb built on my new splits this year. When I added starter strips to established hives last year, they built drone comb immediately.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>(1. Is my fifth hive (the one started with starter strips) going to have a lot of drone comb? I so, what should I do about it?

I would do nothing about it. This study says you'll end up with the same number of drones regardless:

Levin, C.G. and C.H. Collison. 1991. The production and distribution of drone comb and brood in honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies as affected by freedom in comb construction. BeeScience 1: 203-211.


>(2. Will my other hives draw out worker comb since they've already started on the foundation or can I expect a lot of drone comb with these as well?

The bees will build what they need. They know what they are doing.


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## Ellen (Dec 25, 2006)

Some people say that you should cut out the drone comb to reduce varroa mite populations. Michael, is that just not necessary? I'd rather just leave the drone comb, but I don't want to treat, so I'm a little worried.
Ellen


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I just move mine to the outside. The queen will lay in it when they want drones. Otherwise, they fill it with honey.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Ellen . . .

Your right, some do say, "cut out drone comb". That same idea goes along w/ "trapping and freezing". (Ever wunder what's happen to well-mated queens.) Both of these methods are part of "Varroa management" that is necessary when your bees are forced to use LARGE, un-NATURAL cells for brood rearing.

A different approach (to Varroa), is the use of smaller, more natural-size cells and let the bees deal w/ the Varroa. This method often employs frames of comb that the bees have made WITHOUT foundation. Some use a narrow pc of something (foundation, slat of wood, plain wax) to provide bee w/ a starting place. I think it's best to use "Bush" foundationless frames (I sell them  ).

When the bees make what they want, sometimes they draw complete frames of drone cells and these should remain in the brood chamber (gradually moved to outside). As the season progresses, and as the bees meet their need for drone comb, frames will be drawn in worker cells.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Some people say that you should cut out the drone comb to reduce varroa mite populations. Michael, is that just not necessary?

On natural sized comb I have not found it at all necessary. If you have heavy mite loads (Dave W can give lessons on counting mites) then it may be worth trying. I've never done it.

>I'd rather just leave the drone comb, but I don't want to treat, so I'm a little worried.

If you have 4.9mm or smaller in the core of the brood nest, you will probably have no problems. Count the mites and sleep well.


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## Ardilla (Jul 17, 2006)

I just started two hives from nucs and starter strips this year. They drew the strips with nearly all worker sized comb. Only small portions of a few frames have drone comb. These patches are in the bottom of the frame in the center bounded on either side (and above) by worker comb. The queens have been ignoring the drone comb so far. 

Based on others' experience, I was expecting more drone comb.

I made one mistake with the starter strips though...

When I added the second box to one hive, I moved two nearly drawn, apparently empty frames from the bottom box to the new box so the bees would have templates to draw parallel comb. One of the combs that I thought was empty apparently had eggs in it. A week later the frame was full of capped brood and had a couple emergency queen cells in the middle of the frame. After a short panic, I found the marked queen - so I removed the queen cells.

My interpretation is that when the frame of eggs were moved up the nurse bees thought they were queenless even though the queen was in the box below.

Or, there could be another reason all together.

First of more mistakes to come I'm sure.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Yep, I've had the seemingly excessive drone comb, but shrank back to the conclusion the bees know what they are doing.

I've also had the warped, wavy and cross comb. I found that if you put a foundation-strip frame between two drawn, they draw it out flawlessly.

Also, my biggest problem is securing the strip to the wedge top bar. Some of the strips fall out. I think I'm going to order one of those tubes for melted wax. But it does seem to be one more step and another segment of time.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Lately I have just been sticking in empty frames. I do have some Mann Lake PF100 frames that I put between them, to sort of guide them, but other than that, I haven't even bothered with starter strips, popcicle sticks or any thing else. If I don't like the way they draw it, I cut it out and make them do it again. I haven't had to do much of that so far, so i'm happy.


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## kbee (Mar 6, 2005)

I have had good luck with foundationless frames also. I started with starter strips then went to popsicle sticks and now use empty frames with the wedge bar stapled perpendicular. I rub the edge of the wedge bar with beeswax. The bees draw it well and it is very easy.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I too am of the opinion that the bees know what they need so I leave the drone comb alone. Most of my hives have a little in the corners of the brood comb and one of my larger hives has one full frame of drone. I started using foundationless and am cutting my top bars into a V shape when I put the frames together.......what they draw out is not always pretty, but its functional for them and I can get the frames out so I am happy.


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## julesbeek (Jun 1, 2007)

*speaking of foundationless frames...*

It's been a busy busy swarm season here on the North Coast of California. I've collected 3 swarms just in the last 2 weeks (unfortunately, one from my OWN hives) and have them in the beeyard. I just did a quick check today on the swarm hives (one was hived last Sunday, one was the Wednesday before and the other two weeks ago). Because I didn't have quite enough wired frames with foundation inserted made up, I decided to feed one of the swarm hives foundationless frames and see how they'd do. This swarm was hived 8 days ago. I just peered in and the bees are making comb all right. THE WRONG WAY. They've made four combs just about diagonally across four of the frames. I can't pull a single frame out without totally munching the comb they've made. My thought was to just let them do their thing, and give them a new super which they may (or may not?) build comb the "right" way (i.e.: what I want them to do). Then cull that comb when the bees have moved up later this winter. Good idea? Sucky one? I really hate to cut out all that comb and tie it in, but I also hate to doom the hive. This won't be a honey surplus hive for me this year, but I also don't want to start them out on the wrong track.

Any advice appreciated!!

Julia


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I would say fix it now while the fixing is good.....once they have a few going in the right direction the rest will mostly follow.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The sooner you straighten them out the sooner they can build more straight combs. The longer you wait the more messed up combs they will build. I would fix them ASAP.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

If I understand correctly what's happening, is that you gave them "all" foundationless frames? If that's true, they will only make a huge mess of the hive. They, the frames, need to be put between drawn comb frames or frames with foundation in them. They will do a great job for you then.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Bees need a guide. This can be a wax starter strip, a wooden starter strip, or a triangular comb guide or drawn brood comb on each side of the empty comb.

Otherwise it ends up like this:
http://www.beesource.com/pov/simon/comb.jpg


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