# Treatment Free Sub-Forum by Area?



## CessnaGirl (Jan 7, 2014)

:thumbsup:


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

i don't think there is much regional difference at all, now the timing maybe, but the concept of keeping bees is pretty universal. And as far as timing goes, let the bees be your guide. As far as what regional differences their are, those are going to be true across the spectrum of beekeeping for example you probably wouldn't want to be making a split this time of yr in WI, but in Florida, you could probably get away with it, this would be true for both treaters and non treaters alike.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

You're right in the sense that there are universal truths in all of beekeeping. What's not universal or always known are factors such as open population resistance mechanisms, which vary from area to area. Can I open mate queens and sustain my Apiary, or is this a scenario where I must keep mother and daughter lines going from breeders. How volatile are the mite vectored diseases in my area and how are bees coping with them in said area. What known resistance mechanisms have your bees shown? Having a place to share regional results and reviews might help with some of the outlying problems associated with the generalities when standard methodology doesn't work. It may not, as well.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Beekeeping is very location specific. But those difference are the same whether you treat or not. I think you are succumbing to the people who want you to believe it is either impossible or so difficult that it is not worth doing. Unfortunately there are a lot of them on this forum. Makes me want to have a treatment free forum where treatment free beekeepers can discuss how they are doing it... oh wait... I guess that doesn't work...

"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."-George Bernard Shaw


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Michael Bush said:


> Beekeeping is very location specific. But those difference are the same whether you treat or not. I think you are succumbing to the people who want you to believe it is either impossible or so difficult that it is not worth doing. Unfortunately there are a lot of them on this forum. Makes me want to have a treatment free forum where treatment free beekeepers can discuss how they are doing it... oh wait... I guess that doesn't work...
> 
> "People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."-George Bernard Shaw


Mr. Bush, let me start by saying you're one of the main reasons I got into beekeeping. I talked to you ten years ago about possibly getting some of your stock when I first got interested in doing this. You were extremely helpful, and due to life circumstances, I was unable to make it happen. Ten years later, here I am, and no, I am not even close to succumbing to the idea that it's not possible. I'm doing it. Nor am I going to tell someone who is struggling doing it with 70% losses they are doing it wrong. Many beeks on here with far more experience and knowledge than I will ever have. Yourself I count as one I most highly regard.

If I don't validate those that have tried and failed, with the reasons given as influences beyond their control, why should I ask for validation on my successes?


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

Michael Bush said:


> ... people who want you to believe it is either impossible or so difficult that it is not worth doing....
> 
> "People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."-George Bernard Shaw


TFobia?

Actually, I've wondered why there is such opposition to letting others explore TF concepts. The "follow the money" thought came to mind. Is it that there are commercial interests that would be negatively impacted by TF beekeeping?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

It is worse in Europe. Very little work was done with VSH or grooming/mauling traits until the last 5 years. Many beekeepers are required by law to treat for mites.

When an untreated colony dies from mite related syndrome, other colonies in the area rob the honey and in the process can bring a huge load of mites back to their colony. This can take a treated and otherwise healthy colony to the verge of death in a few weeks. The beekeeper recognizes that his treated colony was overwhelmed by the untreated colony's mites and becomes angry at the beekeeper who did not treat.

I have not treated for 11 years, but I am in an area conducive to keeping bees untreated. There are a dozen beekeepers within 5 miles of my home. Only 3 of them treat for mites. The rest either have my mite tolerant stock or else have figured out that their bees have reasonably good mite tolerance. This basic paradigm is present in most of rural north Alabama.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

I don't believe there are commercial interests involved, atleast not on these forums and not from forum members. My experience has been that members from both camps are very helpful and very passionate about what they do. In fact they are so passionate about it that they may assume some type of manipulation or conspiracy from the other camp. 

Good folks from both camps recommend to get local queen, encourage you to do increases from your own stock and not continue to dump money into bees year over year unnecessarily. However TF tend to advice the "natural selection" theory and Treat folks advice to worry about keeping your bees alive and make some crop. 

Experienced folks from both camps see newbees as little kids who just started walking and learning. They want to make sure the kids get on right path and dont give up. In that effort, they may forget that we (newbees) are all grown ups, most of us are not commercial or sideliners and we can take responsibility for our own actions. 

If get little deeper, some Treatment folks may think TF gurus are selling seminars, smokes and mirrors and TF folks may think the Treatment guys are selling gadgets, equipment etc. But I have personally not seen anyone advice me or approach me with any financial interest.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Fusion_power said:


> It is worse in Europe. Very little work was done with VSH or grooming/mauling traits until the last 5 years. Many beekeepers are required by law to treat for mites.
> 
> When an untreated colony dies from mite related syndrome, other colonies in the area rob the honey and in the process can bring a huge load of mites back to their colony. This can take a treated and otherwise healthy colony to the verge of death in a few weeks. The beekeeper recognizes that his treated colony was overwhelmed by the untreated colony's mites and becomes angry at the beekeeper who did not treat.
> 
> I have not treated for 11 years, but I am in an area conducive to keeping bees untreated. There are a dozen beekeepers within 5 miles of my home. Only 3 of them treat for mites. The rest either have my mite tolerant stock or else have figured out that their bees have reasonably good mite tolerance. This basic paradigm is present in most of rural north Alabama.


Thanks fusion power. How did you approach people with your stock, or was it kind of an organic occurrence? I am considering something similar eventually, if I can get past my misanthropic ways. A bit of an exaggeration, but only a bit.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> approach me with any financial interest


soliciting can get you put in jail.    As I plan a seminar while polishing my mirror and puffing my smoker...


Nordak,
I run a tomato and pepper plant business which means quite a few people see my bees. If they are interested, I get them set up with a couple of colonies as a start. Three so far have reached the 10 to 20 colonies level. With time, I hope to get everyone in this area working together to stay treatment free. Another 10 years and who knows, maybe we will all use TF genetics.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Fusion_power said:


> I run a tomato and pepper plant business which means quite a few people see my bees. If they are interested, I get them set up with a couple of colonies as a start. Three so far have reached the 10 to 20 colonies level. With time, I hope to get everyone in this area working together to stay treatment free.


Very cool. I plan on selling some nucs next year, hoping some will land near me. Seems like a great approach.



Fusion_power said:


> Another 10 years and who knows, maybe we will all use TF genetics.


I think you meant your area, but one can dream.


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

DaisyNJ said:


> I have personally not seen anyone advice me or approach me with any financial interest.


I meant negatively impacted commercial interests (i.e. OA, queen breeding, etc.). However, I think Fusion brought to light what could be a more sensitive underlying issue. Which by the way, I believe is a very valid concern and helps me see things from a different perspective. Imagine if all new beeks all the sudden, irresponsible, went TF ("cold turkey")! That could be a big problem to other beeks, at least in the short term. 




Fusion_power said:


> When an untreated colony dies from mite related syndrome, other colonies in the area rob the honey and in the process can bring a huge load of mites back to their colony. This can take a treated and otherwise healthy colony to the verge of death in a few weeks. The beekeeper recognizes that his treated colony was overwhelmed by the untreated colony's mites and becomes angry at the beekeeper who did not treat.
> 
> I have not treated for 11 years, but I am in an area conducive to keeping bees untreated. There are a dozen beekeepers within 5 miles of my home. Only 3 of them treat for mites. The rest either have my mite tolerant stock or else have figured out that their bees have reasonably good mite tolerance. This basic paradigm is present in most of rural north Alabama.


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## Joe Mac (Jun 1, 2016)

JeronimoJC said:


> TFobia?
> 
> Actually, I've wondered why there is such opposition to letting others explore TF concepts. The "follow the money" thought came to mind. Is it that there are commercial interests that would be negatively impacted by TF beekeeping?


I spoke with a large commercial beekeeper from the Northeast earlier this year and he has been treatment free for about 15 years. He speaks to beekeeping groups and I've seen some of his videos on Youtube. He used to write articles for the bee magazines about treatment free beekeeping and all of a sudden they wouldn't publish his writings any more. He told me that he could tell from talking to them that they were under pressure from the chemical manufacturers and retailers that they better stop printing his articles. They didn't just come out and admit it, but he could read between the lines and knew that's what was happening. "Chemical free" beekeeping is a threat to their livelihood.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

To the original post: There is something in what you say. Those of us is in the North/Midwest have an advantage when it comes to broodbreaks because of that great cold broodbreak called winter.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

@nordak
You don`t need a separate forum. I´ve got 2 bee yards, 20 minutes driving apart from each other.
You would not believe how different the 2 locations are. Flow, farming, spraying, weather, neighbors, bee race, sun or shade.....

Just read here and find your strategy. Everybody is posting his climate. Or ask.

I started a treatment free forum but we have all kinds of beekeepers. Since I´m moderator, I delete every unfriendly post, but so far nobody wants to do bashing and I´m learning much managements from others too. Beekeeping isnot always about treating.

@dar


> It is worse in Europe. Very little work was done with VSH or grooming/mauling traits until the last 5 years. Many beekeepers are required by law to treat for mites.
> 
> When an untreated colony dies from mite related syndrome, other colonies in the area rob the honey and in the process can bring a huge load of mites back to their colony. This can take a treated and otherwise healthy colony to the verge of death in a few weeks. The beekeeper recognizes that his treated colony was overwhelmed by the untreated colony's mites and becomes angry at the beekeeper who did not treat.


They have programs to breed VSH queens now (Kirchhain, Ralph Bücheler) everybody can take part.
http://www.toleranzzucht.de/home/
But VSH is not everything. Management of hives is more.
We are required to treat but only if we have severe mite problems.

Fact is, the treated hives, especially the big production hives, now breed the mites. They die in spite of treatments, being weakened. The mites are virulent, formic acid kills more bees than mites, other sickness like chalk brood and nosema is common.



> Unsustainable beekeeping system
> 
> "Beekeeping now has the dubious honor of becoming the first part of our system of industrial agriculture to actually fall apart. Let’s stop pretending that something else is going on. We no longer have enough bees to pollinate our crops. Each time the bees go through a downturn, we respond by making things more stressful for them, rather than less--we move them around more often, expose them to still more toxic substances, or fill the equipment up again with more untested and poorly adapted stock. We blame the weather, the mites, the markets, new diseases, consumers, the Chinese, the Germans, the (fill in your favorite scapegoat), other beekeepers, the packers, the scientific community, the price of gas, global warming--anything rather than face up to what’s really happening. We are losing the ability to take care of living things."--*Kirk Webster*


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Sibylle, I translated the page for varroa tolerance breeding and read Buchler's document about selecting for VSH. Are there any other breeding programs you are aware of besides Juhani in Finland and Kefuss in France? https://aristabeeresearch.org/ is a website dedicated to breeding resistant bees.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

JeronimoJC said:


> TFobia?
> 
> Actually, I've wondered why there is such opposition to letting others explore TF concepts. The "follow the money" thought came to mind. Is it that there are commercial interests that would be negatively impacted by TF beekeeping?


One reason I see mentioned even by top researchers are that TF beekeepers are a significant reason there are mites for the treatment people to still treat for. I don't necessarily subscribe to that thinking and actually think there are going to be mites with or without treatment. But overall when the path you walk requires yo step on my toes. you now made it my business. Like it or not that is a valid reason to get in your business. Particularly if it is nothing but a means for someone to spout garbage to make a buck and that buck is in part coming out of my pocket. At that point I will actively oppose your efforts.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

SiWolKe said:


> @nordak
> You don`t need a separate forum. I´ve got 2 bee yards, 20 minutes driving apart from each other.
> You would not believe how different the 2 locations are. Flow, farming, spraying, weather, neighbors, bee race, sun or shade.....


Yeah, I think you're right. I was just thinking last night how much variation exists between feral swarms I've caught here in my backyard. By all accounts I've read, they should be homogenized. But each one has it's unique personality. I think there is so much left to learn and understand on bee mating biology and it's effects on diversity.



SiWolKe said:


> I started a treatment free forum but we have all kinds of beekeepers.


Can you point me in the right direction? I'd like to check it out.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> Sibylle, I translated the page for varroa tolerance breeding and read Buchler's document about selecting for VSH. Are there any other breeding programs you are aware of besides Juhani in Finland and Kefuss in France? https://aristabeeresearch.org/ is a website dedicated to breeding resistant bees.


only private beekeepers as there are

www.voralpenhonig.at
www.resistantbees.com 
www.elgon.se
www.wolnepszczoly.org



> Can you point me in the right direction? I'd like to check it out.


If you speak german, be my guest:
www.VivaBiene.de


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> Another 10 years and who knows, maybe we will all use TF genetics.


:thumbsup:k::gh:


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

JeronimoJC said:


> TFobia?
> 
> Actually, I've wondered why there is such opposition to letting others explore TF concepts. The "follow the money" thought came to mind. Is it that there are commercial interests that would be negatively impacted by TF beekeeping?


While looking for something, came across this Randy Oliver excellent article. He gets into some of the reasons / resistance to going towards TF or soft TF. 
Although from 2007 and assuming Randy didnt change his mind, a good read, for me anyways. 

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/choosing-your-troops-breeding-mite-fighting-bees/


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

I'm in a metro-atlanta beekeeping club, and we've had a UGA (University of Georgia) staff member give a talk 3 of the last 4 months.

I've been surprised at the uniform and complete rejection of TF by them. The guy 2 months ago was rabid: he was stomping back and forth in front of the room, raving about all the "liars on the internet". He literally had a slide in his PowerPoint deck of a nuclear explosion / mushroom cloud to illustrate what "year 3 of Treatment Free" was guaranteed to be. He said "I sneak next door and treat my neighbor's hives when he goes on vacation," which shocked me. He called out several TF Internet writers by name in the talk as liars.

Now this guy was spitting mad. (Literally... some folks in the front row got wet). The lady the next month was much milder in her delivery: no spit or mushrooms. But still "Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. You might make it a year or two, but in year 3 all your hives will die, and when your neighbors rob out your hives all of them will die as well." She was clear that treatment was the only way to go, and that treatment-free folks were only killing bees by torture.

I want to stay in the club, but every month the talk is just a horror show. I feel like I'm being indoctrinated.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

AvatarDad said:


> ....


Same experience here in the club, but at a milder level. They dont want to talk about TopBar either. Most of them are genuinely worried about advising newbees to take that risk (and dealing with resulting heartache). And I shouldnt dismiss either side without actually living through it anyways. 

I keep going to club because they are good bunch otherwise, get some coffee, cookie, chitchat kinda deal. And when I asked, one of them got me a free captured swarm.


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

DaisyNJ said:


> While looking for something, came across this Randy Oliver excellent article. He gets into some of the reasons / resistance to going towards TF or soft TF.
> Although from 2007 and assuming Randy didnt change his mind, a good read, for me anyways.
> 
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/choosing-your-troops-breeding-mite-fighting-bees/


I wonder if opposition to TF concepts extends to other forms of farming? It is easy to see how some of the same arguments raised by those opposing TF beekeeping can be used against organic farming. 

In my opinion, good opportunities for common ground between those in favor and those opposed to TF beekeeping exist. Here is a quote from the article mentioned above that illustrates my point. 

*"If you’re not part of the genetic solution of breeding mite-resistant bees, then you’re part of the problem. Every time you allow drones or swarms to issue from a colony that owes its survival to a miticide application, you’re hindering the natural process of evolution toward mite-resistant bees!"*


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

It is not surprising that most of the "establishment" recommendations are to treat for mites. With most commercial bees, they are correct. I was fortunate in getting some decent genetics that allowed me to go treatment free in 2005. It does not help one bit when I hear that someone brought 1000 packages of commercial treated bees into North Alabama this year.

I would rather that beekeepers sample their colonies for mites and treat when needed than to let the mites overwhelm their colonies and go on to overwhelm other colonies in the area. I would MUCH rather that beekeepers started keeping mite tolerant bees so we could gradually get off the treatment bandwagon.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

AvatarDad said:


> I'm in a metro-atlanta beekeeping club, and we've had a UGA (University of Georgia) staff member give a talk 3 of the last 4 months.
> 
> I've been surprised at the uniform and complete rejection of TF by them. The guy 2 months ago was rabid: he was stomping back and forth in front of the room, raving about all the "liars on the internet". He literally had a slide in his PowerPoint deck of a nuclear explosion / mushroom cloud to illustrate what "year 3 of Treatment Free" was guaranteed to be. He said "I sneak next door and treat my neighbor's hives when he goes on vacation," which shocked me. He called out several TF Internet writers by name in the talk as liars.
> 
> ...


Just as well to keep your mouth shut, document your results. Once you have them, open mouth. The guy I got my first bees keeps in touch with me and goes through my bees with me every so often. When I had the UBC researchers come through to sample I brought him along to see the process and help find queens. I'm in year 3 and see no sign of eminent collapse. In the meanwhile I have a strategy to deal with mite bombs, robbing screens for hives in decline, screening in once terminal. I want minimal transfer of mites and the viruses they carry to remaining hives. It shows you are considerate of your neighbors.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> Just as well to keep your mouth shut, document your results. Once you have them, open mouth.


Love that. I´m a loudmouth and hothead in forum. People may criticize me but I know what they do and they know what´s going on in my bee yards.
So this is ok to me.
I´m three years into beekeeping. If some hives survive the fifth year I will join the club. If not, I will start again and wait some more time. I´m very tired of the fears and discussions so I keep away and take care of my bees.

It´s mostly out of habit, people fear change.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

This is why I have not joined a bee club. Telling beeks that I'm a TF top bar beekeeper is like admitting to being a communist, or worse, a hippy. No offense to communists or hippies.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Nordak said:


> This is why I have not joined a bee club. Telling beeks that I'm a TF top bar beekeeper is like admitting to being a communist, or worse, a hippy. No offense to communists or hippies.


I guess we need TFA (Treatment Free Anonymous) group.

DaisyNJ: Hi, My name is DaisyNJ and I am trying Treatment Free. There, I said it. Guilty. 

Group: Hi DaisyNJ. 

Group Lead: Today, lets talk little about how we have been publicly ridiculed. DaisyNJ, how about we start with you ?

DaisyNJ: Sigh...takes deep breadth. .....


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Haha! First rule in TF Club- You do not talk about TF Club.

*edited for fixing the Fight Club reference. I should be banned from TF Club.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Third year crash, eh? I'm into my 5th years now. The crash already happened in
my 1st and 3rd years. Without reading any books and no mentor to show me how this is
how long it gets me to realized that tf is possible when I find the right bees to keep. Will continue
to seek out the tf genetics to colonized the local drone population. Flooding the local DCAs with the tf resistant
drones is the key to your success. Gradually over time I will find out all the secrets hiding inside my bee box!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beepro said:


> Third year crash, eh?


No crash here. Just thinking about how variable TF experiences appear to be across the boards, and thought a regionally oriented sub-forum might be helpful. My thinking now is it might not be utilized.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

If you are able to keep bees treatment free now, remember that 30 years ago it was not possible. The bees we have now are different. I lost all but one colony in the winter of 1994 to varroa. The survivor was a swarm that moved into an old box I had set out as a swarm trap. I split them into 3 colonies and still made honey in the summer of 1994. From there, I built back up and started working on mite tolerance traits. The bees I have now are able to keep varroa under control well enough that I almost never see a mite.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Fusion_power said:


> If you are able to keep bees treatment free now, remember that 30 years ago it was not possible. The bees we have now are different. I lost all but one colony in the winter of 1994 to varroa. The survivor was a swarm that moved into an old box I had set out as a swarm trap. I split them into 3 colonies and still made honey in the summer of 1994. From there, I built back up and started working on mite tolerance traits. The bees I have now are able to keep varroa under control well enough that I almost never see a mite.


And I for one appreciate pioneers such as yourself. My Dad kept bees before the tracheal mites hit so hard back in the 80's. I remember his hives were decimated. He decided to give it up. He lives near a mountainous region of the state, southwest of me. I set up a couple of bait traps there the year I captured my own bees. He called me up that same year letting me know I had a hive full of bees. Having my fill for the year, I asked of he wanted them, and after some discussion he decided he'd try again. I'm proud to say in his mid 70's he's been a successful TF beek as many years as I have been now. He's been an inspiration to me in many ways, so I was glad I could get him going with bees again. He's loving it.


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

Fusion_power said:


> The bees I have now are able to keep varroa under control well enough that I almost never see a mite.


Fusion, did you do mite counts earlier on? I don't see any mites in my colony (from a swarm) and I have been looking really hard. I also took lots of pictures of my frames and studied each square inch of frame looking for any evidence of mites, and haven't seen any. Being so new at this and not knowing the origin of my queen, I think I am going to treat even though I don't see mites. I dislike the idea of alcohol washes and not thrilled about sugar rolls either.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

With only one colony and not knowing the background of the queen, I would put a sticky tray on the bottom board and see how many mites show up. Then a good decision can be made whether or not to treat. Bees don't stay alive from wishful thinking.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I feel like I'm being indoctrinated.

You are.

>I guess we need TFA (Treatment Free Anonymous) group.

Maybe we need to say were're treatment free and proud! I think we are the only hope for the future of beekeeping.

>If you are able to keep bees treatment free now, remember that 30 years ago it was not possible. 

30 years ago my bees were treatment free and doing fine and had been since the 70s. It was the late 90s when they started dying.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

What´s a crash :s
If you have one colony which survives you have success, because those are the survivors you may use.

Be happy you are able to keep going with ferals!

We have to do without! So I´m lucky to have only one loss out of 15 hives yet after 2 years treatment free beekeeping.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

SiWolKe said:


> What´s a crash :s


I think beepro is talking about collapse maybe, not sure how wide scale or why he assumed it was happening. I certainly haven't seen signs of imminent failure in the near future, even though I was told to expect it at two years. Now I guess since they are surviving, I should expect it this year. My guess is, as long as the bees are still surviving treatment free next year, that will be the year to expect it.Or the next. I think this information comes mainly from people who find TF at odds with their belief that bees can't cope without treatment.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Crash or collapse, it does not matter. Been there before a few times over the years.
Your most challenge is in the 2nd and 3rd year. If you can get pass the 4th years in a tf operation then
you are good to go. You may find some resistant genetics to keep and further expand your apiary. This is
what I'm looking for. The survivors that show some kind of resistant so that I can graft from the next season.
Right now I'm mixing in the diverse genetics from the various bee operation I can find. But certainly not aggressive
toward me even though they showed good sign of having resistance. I like gentle bees with certain characteristics to make honey that can deal with the mites at the same time. Only time will tell!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beepro said:


> I like gentle bees with certain characteristics to make honey that can deal with the mites at the same time. Only time will tell!


I don't think you're alone in that wish. I'm having great success so far in the survival department, not so much in matters of honey. I think my being super conservative when it comes to harvesting might have something to do with it. I prefer the proliferation of bees over honey production so I'm ok with it.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

JeronimoJC said:


> Being so new at this and not knowing the origin of my queen, I think I am going to treat even though I don't see mites.


Then you will be kicked out of the club But seriously, I see this ideal as a huge problem. The ideal that all bees have mites, so if you don't treat them they are going to die, so I treat them on this schedule regardless if I see or count any. Do none of these hives still die? Where does that leave the future of the honey bee? Luckily there is a club, but I don't want to break the first rule:lpf:


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

JeronimoJC said:


> Fusion, did you do mite counts earlier on? I don't see any mites in my colony (from a swarm) and I have been looking really hard. I also took lots of pictures of my frames and studied each square inch of frame looking for any evidence of mites, and haven't seen any. Being so new at this and not knowing the origin of my queen, *I think I am going to treat even though I don't see mites. * I dislike the idea of alcohol washes and not thrilled about sugar rolls either.


Please use the sugar roll or alcohol shaker and don`t treat as a prophylactic!


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> The ideal that all bees have mites, so if you don't treat them they are going to die, so I treat them on this schedule regardless if I see or count any. Do none of these hives still die? Where does that leave the future of the honey bee? Luckily there is a club, but I don't want to break the first rule:lpf:


I agree with you logic 100%, yet here I am. 

It makes sense that as part of starting on a TF path one should have a reliable method of determining colony health. It also makes sense to figure out a way to track progress. So I concluded I'll be doing some form of mite count in the near future. The toughest question will be at which point will I deem it necessary to intervene. 

This colony is from a swarm in a rural area. It is possible this is a feral colony. From lots of reading I've done in the last few days, I am starting to believe feral colonies may be the best way to get a good queen for TF purposes. The challenge is how can anyone know for sure their colony was feral or not? The answer may lie in letting the colony demonstrate they are capable of being TF. Do I want to take that chance? Yes and no. I suppose my first priority is doing what I can to help this colony make it to next year. This may be why my gut reaction was to treat first.



SiWolKe said:


> Please use the sugar roll or alcohol shaker and don`t treat as a prophylactic!


I am definitely considering the sugar roll. I appreciate the sentiment behind your advice.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

If this was a swarm colony, chances are they will have a fairly low mite count as they have experienced a significant brood break by having to build back up. Do the alcohol or sugar test and I bet you'll be pleasantly surprised. Next year, if they overwinter, will be the real test.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Nordak is just right.

When I had my first colony which was treated, it was in vain.
They robbed a hive and were infested thoroughly, in spite of my managements they developed the mite virus.

But I learned much. I was fascinated and watched the decline writing a scorecard. You must know how to estimate what`s going on.
You must know about sick bees to know how healthy and mite tolerant bees act and look.



> The answer may lie in letting the colony demonstrate they are capable of being TF.


So don`t fear. Everybody has his resets.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

It's people like SiWolke and Juhani Lunden who make me think TF beekeeping is possible even in the most difficult of circumstances. I have it easy comparatively speaking, and I'm guessing your road to TF would be much easier than the European model. Colony loss is an inevitably whether you treat or don't. That's something I have been fortunate enough not to face yet, but my day is coming. Once you have more hives, you will probably get more comfortable with it. Best of luck whatever choice you make.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Nordak said:


> It's people like SiWolke and Juhani Lunden who make me think TF beekeeping is possible even in the most difficult of circumstances. I have it easy comparatively speaking, and I'm guessing your road to TF would be much easier than the European model. Colony loss is an inevitably whether you treat or don't. That's something I have been fortunate enough not to face yet, but my day is coming. Once you have more hives, you will probably get more comfortable with it. Best of luck whatever choice you make.


Kind and wise words.
Juhani is a professional, I`m a beginner. You can`t compare, even if we have the same circumstances. I´ve yet to learn everything.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

SiWolKe said:


> ...
> You must know about sick bees to know how healthy and mite tolerant bees act and look.....


Serious question. Are there generic observable traits for healthy & mite tolerant bees ? Or is it very location specific ?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

DaisyNJ said:


> Serious question. Are there generic observable traits for healthy & mite tolerant bees ? Or is it very location specific ?


I think it is race specific, location specific and a question of the behavior which developes after regression.
My experience is limited with race traits, but after 3 years watching my bees I know a lot about the other two.

Location means mostly flow, weather, spraying, neighbor beekeepers. 
Bees need to adapt to their location. I have one queen from canary island, which is not adapted after two years. She breeds through winter. The hybrids do not. To fight the varroa we need a brood brake.
Bad weather means no foraging or no flow. If the bees are hungry they do not breed or they do not care about VSH, because they have to forage every minute the sun comes out.
What spraying means, everybody knows. The symptoms are the same as with some viruses and you might loose all foragers, the hive is weakened.
Neighbor beekeepers bring mite infestation or bad drone input.

After being regressed onto small cells my bees showed more defense behavior and are much more agile. 
To me, regression means having natural food, too.
Fact is I believe it`s one of the main points. But it`s the first year they live on honey so I don´t know yet what will be.
Regression is to keep bees as natural as possible with our managements. 
This means not to prevent swarming, leaving the bees to raise their own queens, colony strength.

I believe bees which are not treated and kept natural are sensitive to the state of affairs and act accordingly. 
For example the trigger to do VSH may be lower.

How do we know if it`s the breeding of traits or the health of the hive which starts the VSH?
Or how do we know how health prevents the outbreak of virus?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If she doesn't stop laying then lock her up!
I would give her plenty of foods to study the mite population too.
When the hive finally crashed then you will know that this queen cannot fit into your
bee operation. Get some daughters from her mated with the local drones to see if some
will survive. The other option is to keep on splitting.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

beepro said:


> If she doesn't stop laying then lock her up!
> I would give her plenty of foods to study the mite population too.
> When the hive finally crashed then you will know that this queen cannot fit into your
> bee operation. Get some daughters from her mated with the local drones to see if some
> will survive. The other option is to keep on splitting.





> Get some daughters from her mated with the local drones to see if some
> will survive. The other option is to keep on splitting


That`s what I do for now.

It`s a question of philosophy.
I don`t want bees which need me as beekeeper to survive.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeswholebee.htm


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

If a hive has poor genetics and can't take mites, why would you want that hive in your apiary? They'll be contributing drones next season. The whole point of TF is filtering those hives out of the operation.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

lharder said:


> If a hive has poor genetics and can't take mites, why would you want that hive in your apiary? They'll be contributing drones next season. The whole point of TF is filtering those hives out of the operation.


If you refer to my beekeeping, in my area this hive would not survive one season. Even if it would, winter will eliminate it.

Today I met with a friend who has 2 hives, he keeps bees as long as I do.
After harvesting he treated with formic acid in July, his colonies were very strong, so strong he did not find the marked queen.( but eggs) 
Mite downfall after treatment: one hundred. 
He fed, but we had a famine end of july because of rainy weather and it was not enough.
Half of bees left and 3 combs of small brood nests are the result.

Seems to me treatments or good queens are not important if management fails.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Why did he fail?
If mother nature takes over then not much we can do about it, right.
So you think he failed because he's feeding and treating them?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Surely not!
Treatment in his case is important because he does old school beekeeping and his bees would not survive without.
But leaving the bees without enough food after harvesting?

Well, in nature they are robbed by bears or other bee colonies so you may see this as a natural thing.
They eat their brood and start from the beginning.

Hope, he has enough bees left for winter.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

SiWolKe said:


> If you refer to my beekeeping, in my area this hive would not survive one season. Even if it would, winter will eliminate it.
> 
> No I was referring to the idea that if one had unknown genetics introduced into a tf apiary, that it would be propped it up with treating. Even if that queen has otherwise desirable traits, my strategy would be making daughters to mate with locally adapted drones rather than treating.
> 
> People forget that tf is really a black box approach to improvement. Survival and honey production are the most important measures. If one focuses on other measures, then the scope of adaptability is narrowed to that particular set of solutions. Other unknown perhaps beneficial traits can be inadvertently weeded out. Curiosity makes us dissect why we think a particular black box operates, but care must be taken that the focus doesn't shift from the big picture.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I understand, Iharder.
I´m with you.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

lharder said:


> Survival and honey production are the most important measures.


i agree, with adding a favorable response to swarm prevention which tends to make those colonies the best producers. these measures are what i use for deciding which queens to make grafts from each season. 

for survivability i looked at the number of winters survived with a continuous queenline. the clock is reset for colonies that go hopelessly queenless and have to be requeened. 

for production i look at how much new comb gets drawn and lbs. of honey are harvested.

in my view survival and honey production are the ultimate measures of a colony having _whatever_ traits allow it to be successful against varroa mites in addition to everything else out there the colony has to contend with.


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