# alternative top bar hive



## mackelby (Dec 5, 2010)

I have been reading about a hive made from a barrel. I have access to barrels at work, they would require a 19-1/2 inch top bars but it only has about 27 to 28 workable inches. Is this enough room for a productive hive?? If not is it to big for a useable nuc hive.

Mac


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

mackelby said:


> I have been reading about a hive made from a barrel. I have access to barrels at work, they would require a 19-1/2 inch top bars but it only *has about 27 to 28 workable inches*. Is this enough room for a productive hive?? If not is it to big for a useable nuc hive.
> 
> Mac


 Do you mean 27/28 from end to end like a 30gal Barrel versus 55gal
I would think if you made a frame as the barrel hive have and you 
used a super on top of the frame a 30 gal barrel would be a Sweet Hive
Pun not intended but Now is lol


Tommyt


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## mackelby (Dec 5, 2010)

Yes it is a 30 gal barrel. So you are saying super one end of the barrel?? This will be my first hive. Very limited funds. Just build a wooden super 8 to 10 frames deep?? Thanks for the quick response.

Mac


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you have the means to cut a barrel in half, from top to bottom, why couldn't you also cut the bottom off of each piece and weld them together for a 60 inch hive?

Or, if you don't have closed head barrels, all you have to do is cut the barrel and weld it together.

Are 55 gallon barrels bigger around than 30 gallon barrels? Aren't 30 gallon barrels used for maple syrup?


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## mackelby (Dec 5, 2010)

These barrels are thick plastic off white, semi opaque. I think it will still need a coat of paint. I have access to numerous barrels. And over time many barrels.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

What are the actual dimensions of the barrel? You are not very clear what your measurements are referring to. (Pony keg maybe?)

A half barrel that is 18 inches in diameter, and 27 inches long has a volume of approximately 2 cubic feet.

A single deep Langstroth box has a volume of approximately 1.75 cubic feet.

V=pi(r^2)h for volume of a cylinder (divide by 2 for a half barrel)
V=lwh to find volume of a rectangular box

A cubic foot contains 1728 cubic inches.


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## mackelby (Dec 5, 2010)

Almost positive they are 30 gallon, I will check again tomorrow. I put a tape measure on it today, dia was a little over 19 inches, outside to outside. Also appeared to be about 28 inches overall in height, so my guess is 27 inches to use for top bars, 20 of them according to my calculations. Starting to sound like they would be better used for a double nuc maybe. To small for a hive. My goal is to have 4 hives built by the first of Feb. If I am going to have to build supers to make the barrels work, I will build a 4 foot top bar hive. But I still would like to use the barrels. Think the double nuc is workable. Divider and 2 feeder should still have room for 6 or 7 frames for each nuc. Or am I a newbie dreamer??


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## bigevilgrape (Aug 21, 2008)

What about stacking them and using it as a vertical top bar hive?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Sounds like good dreams to me. One of your barrels should make you a hive that is a little larger in space than a single Langstroth deep, and a deep is plenty of room for the queen to lay during the 3 week brood cycle with a couple frames of nectar for immediate brood rearing needs. So I think you'll do fine, at least to start, with the 1/2 barrel top bar hives. You would need to make a super on top for any extra honey storage or you might get some swarms issued from it, but it's plenty room for a brood nest. And I think you are right on the money, using them as double nucs or even triple nucs, could be space to hold queens or used as mating nucs. Oh, and I bet a single 1/2 barrel sized hive would make a great cell starter/builder if you decide to raise a queen or three along the way.

Just do keep in mind that I've never used a TBH, always been a Lang style hive in my keeping. But it's just the box/hive container, it's a good size for a brood nest, the bees should do great. And being a plastic barrel it's more insulative than a steel one, since you have a choice of barrel materials now a days. Go for it and have a great time with the bees.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Cut it in Half take you time and try to make it even 
Bolt the two half's together Length ways Cut a V so the bees can 
travel to the second half cut top bars and at least one follower 
and find some bees 
I would put holes in the bottom of the barrels for moisture water 
to escape cover them with wire mesh or screen
I'll look for the barrel hive I was reading and post in when its found
I think it maybe Michel Bush's page 

Tommyt


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Words of wisdom - A poor man pays twice.

Yes, these small barrels may be free, but you will pay more in the long run. 

My advice would be to build a TBH like Michael Bush's website gives plans for. It's the proper size, and it will be easy to overwinter and have everything standardized.

Trying to cobble junk together may work, but you will end up with a lot of 'bastard' pieces. If you have any intentions of growing beyond this one hive, I would encourage you to standardize as much as possible.

I would try to find better uses for the barrels...like using to mix your sugar syrup.


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

I've gotta agree with countryboy. Free is nice, but there is alot to be said for following a standard. I am not sure of your experience level but if you are starting out then you would well advised to start with a proven design and learn the ropes before reinventing the wheel.

You can build TBH's pretty cheap. I build mine for about $35 each if I use new 2" material. They are heavy buy I don't migrate my hives.

If you just want an adventure.....then go for it. You can still have plenty of fun.

Good luck,
Mike


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Here it is 
























This pic below is the frame you build around the barrel to keep the sides from bowing









http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/barrel-top-bar-hive/

Hope this helps 

Tommyt


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## mackelby (Dec 5, 2010)

I concur. Thanks for the responses.

Mac


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## LenInNorCal (Feb 28, 2009)

You mentioned the bars would be 19 1/2".
If you could cut the barrels so that the bars would be the same size as Langstroths, that would certainly bode well for future issues in case you get bit by the bug, or you have friends you may wish to swap with. 
Good luck and have fun.


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## mackelby (Dec 5, 2010)

Don't know anything about Langs, can't spell it.

Mac


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## LenInNorCal (Feb 28, 2009)

Awhile back you didn't know anything about TBH either, but that didn't stop you. You may, or probably, will get into Langstroth hives and if you do you will already have bars of golden comb to catch swarms with (they like the smell), that are already drawn out (work already done and ready to lay & store honey) and will be "natural sized" (some think important for mite control). You need not understand anything above, but stick with this hobby and it will come to you. Just trying to help in anticipation of full enjoyment. Go have fun.


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## imcurtis (Feb 21, 2010)

Mac,
Ultimately, honey bees will live in almost anything that will keep them dry and is within range of a good food and water source. The rest of the stuff about honey bees is mostly for the beekeeper. The remainder is about how to help them survive pests the harshness of the weather, especially winter.

So using a barrel or any container is fine. You only need to insure there is enough ventilation in the summer and insulation in the winter to allow the bees to keep the inside of the hive at their optimal temperature. And enough room to allow them to build a big enough colony to support themselves. You can search the web for what exact temperature but I think it is around 90 degrees Fahrenheit. 

I would suggest you read and use the principals of topbar beekeeping. Build your topbars the right width use some kind of starter strip, I think wax coated paper in a groove is the cheapest and best idea I have seen. Then find a good location.

A couple of other things to consider. If the bars are too long or/and deep the bees will attach the comb all over the place to make it stable. Also if the hive is not sitting level or wobbles they will build all kind of weird support structures. How long / deep is too much, the bees will decide. This is not a problem for them they just want to make sure the comb does not collapse. And they can move around and keep house. It may be for you when you go to harvest or inspect. Just prepare to scrape the walls and cut the comb free when you open your hive or you will destroy the comb, make the bees mad and it will be a big mess.

You can do the math on the surface area of a standard depth double stacked Langstrouth brood chamber hive. This is what most beekeepers consider the optimal size to over winter and sustain a colony. Then after you see how the bees fill the barrel you can calculate how much to keep for winter. And you can add bars at proper times for them to build honey for you to harvest. You may end up going back and adding inside walls to reduce the area because the bees just do not want to fill the entire length but they usually do.

I hope that helps. Just get ready for spring and ask a local beek when the proper time to start a new hive then find some bees and make it a reality. 

Good luck


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## mackelby (Dec 5, 2010)

Out of curiosity how wide is langstrough bar??


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## imcurtis (Feb 21, 2010)

Hive body and hive super
Hive bodies and hive supers are four-sided boxes with standardized inside dimensions. There are generally four different sizes. Outside box dimensions vary depending on the type of material used. Polystyrene boxes have much larger outside dimensions than boxes made out of wood. Deep and medium hive bodies are provided to serve as the brood chamber, the part of the hive where the queen lays eggs and the bees care for the larvae. Medium, shallow and comb honey supers are used for honey stores and to harvest the honey. The inside width is 14 11/16 inches (373 mm) and the inside length is 18 5/16 inches (465 mm). The frames rest on a rabbeted side along both ends of each box.

The deep hive body is normally used only for brood as it becomes too heavy to manually handle if it is filled with honey. Commercial operations usually use one or two deep hive bodies for brood and additional shallow hive components for honey supers. Most hobbyists prefer to standardize on all mediums. Shallow supers are not ideal for the brood chamber of the hive because the bees need to form a single compact sphere during the cold winter months -- a sphere that can expand and contract without being divided by a horizontal plane in the middle caused by the gaps between combs in multiple hive bodies.

Type Depth Frame length Frame depth Frame width 
Deep body 9 9/16 inches (243 mm) 19 inches (483 mm) 9 1/8 inches (232 mm) 1 1/8 inches (29 mm) 
Medium (Illinois) super 6 5/8 inches (168 mm) 19 inches (483 mm) 6 1/4 inches (159 mm) 1 1/8 inches (29 mm) 
Shallow super 5 3/4 inches (146 mm) 19 inches (483 mm) 5 3/8 inches (137 mm) 1 1/8 inches (29 mm) 
Comb super 4 3/4 inches (121 mm) 19 inches (483 mm) 4 1/8 inches (105 mm) 1 1/8 inches (29 mm) 

The hive body or hive super holds 8-10 frames that are standardized in length. The frames hold the foundation and the honeycomb that is built on it.

This is from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langstroth_hive


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## mackelby (Dec 5, 2010)

Well, seeing as how the lang has 19" top bars that would make the 30 gallon barrel a possibility to add a honey super to the top. I will have to try that at some point. Got a gift certificate to Home Depot from my daughters, buying building supplies this weekend. Getting pumped!!


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

*mackelby * Getting pumped!! Is Great "I know the feeling" 
Seems to me with Bees Less is Better 
No need to reinvent the wheel 
Keep it simple and Enjoy 

Tommyt


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