# Honey extractor type



## PCM (Sep 18, 2007)

Yes, a radial get it out much better than a tangential extractor, also less messy.

I have never heard of any one going from a radial to a tangential extractor !!

PCM


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Mine will do them both ways and sometimes if I have thick honey I will sling them Tangentially to get more out.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Think long-term, or at least, longer-term. I used a hand-crank, two-frame, tangential and it drained too slow. Found a deal on a four-frame, hand-crank tangential so I used one while the other was draining. When I hit sixty hives I was tearing up my shoulder cranking the extractors.

That's when I bought motorized, twenty-frame radial. The motor gently spins out the honey while you uncap more frames. So while twenty frames are spinning, I have time to uncap another twenty. I cannot tell the difference between the amount of honey left in the frame. But then I bring my honey home in the late afternoon and spin it out right after dinner. You can feel the residual heat coming off the comb. Warm honey spins better than room temperature...although with our current temperatures it doesn't make any difference.

I wished I had bought a motorized in the early days. Even with six hives, you can uncap while the extractor spins. I would think seriously about investing the money in a motorized unit. If you need to move up to a larger extractor, the motorized unit will command a higher resale price than a hand-crank. There are millions of two- and four-frame, hand-crank extractors on the market. You can pick one up real cheap, but in the long run, I think you'll be happier with a motorized unit.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

NasalSponge said:


> Mine will do them both ways and sometimes if I have thick honey I will sling them Tangentially to get more out.


Ditto. I bought a Maxant 3100H (handcrank) this year and did some frames tangentially because they still felt a bit heavy after spinning them radially. The 3100H is made so that I can easily add a motor to it in the future


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

PCM said:


> Yes, a radial get it out much better than a tangential extractor, also less messy.
> 
> 
> 
> PCM


That statement is not true. I have both, a 4 frame tangential hand crank and an 18 frame motorized one. The tangential is messier as you have to turn the frames but I think that it comes out faster. My radial is motorized so I don't care but I run it for 10-15 minutes while I crank a couple of minutes on each side of the tangential and get the same amount of honey out. 

The statement about thick honey is also true, I think. The tangential get thick honey out easier than the radial.


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

No matter what you decide, I will offer my advice from past experience.

- BUY A QUALITY MACHINE! 
- Maxant or Dadant should be the 2 names at the top of your list. I bought one from Mann Lake and hated it. Also, buying one a little bigger than what you think you need is money well spent too.

Have you extracted honey before? If not, rent a hand crank extractor and see what you think. I did not have the money my first year to buy an extractor, so I rented one and discovered that I DID NOT want a hand cranker. If you do end up buying a hand cranker, try and get one that is upgradeable for the future. 

Good luck,
C2


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The difference between radial and tangential is time so if the extractor is motorized then you can just let it run longer to get all the honey out. A disadvantage of the tangential extractor is it creates a force that is perpendicular to the frame and as a result will tend to blow out the comb. If you are using natural comb I would not get a tangential extractor or use one in that mode.

If I bought a crank extractor I wouldn't use the crank I would use a battery operated drill at the very least to drive it.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I have a maxant 3100H and either I was doing something wrong when i was using radially or it's something to do with foundationless. I was blowing frames all to heck when I was spinning them radially. When I switched to tangentally they rested up against the cage and I didn't have any blowouts and the honey came out a heck of a lot fast.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

I've seen comb get torn up in a radial extractor but I think it's a little harder to accomplish. There's no reason why you cannot safely extract even natural comb with either type of extractor. The radial will be easier because you insert frames and spin. The tangential is more work because you lightly extract your first side a little than flip the frames and extract the other side completely, then flip again and completely extract the first side. You can even add a round of light spins on each side to make it safer for the comb. The tangential will be much more work, flipping the frames.

It comes down to what you want, what you can afford and how big you intend to get. If you know you'll be growing past the number of hives to justify the big motorized radial, or are already there, and can afford it, by all means get it. If you're relatively new to beekeeping, not sure how much you will grow and/or have limited funds, that small, hand crank, tangential extractor probably suits you well. There are times when even though you have the large number of hives and that big motorized radial extractor when you might want to extract a small number of frames and the small hand crank works fine for that situation.

If you're new and not sure you'll be a beekeeper 10 years from now that big extractor might be a bit of a loss for you because I doubt you're going to sell it for what you have in it. If you can get by with inexpensive used 2 or 4 frame extractor, there are many of them available at a low price. You can upgrade and sell your used little extractor for close to what you have in it.


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## lcl (Jul 28, 2011)

Batman says: "I bought one from Mann Lake and hated it."

I am considering buying an Mann Lake motorized extractor and I was wondering what type of problems you've experienced with their product. What size was yours and was it a motorized or crank unit?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Buying used has to do with your ability to maintain machinery. If you cannot fix things then buy new.
If you started off full speed on a tangential extractor you have the full weight of the honey on the other side of the comb trying to destroy the comb. So those that are combos you would reduce the amount of honey in the comb using the radial mode and then switch to tangential. If it is variable speed you can draw some out in the tangential mode at a lower speed on both sides before you go full speed. With a radial you start off slow and then just let it run at a higher speed. All the honey will come out but it takes time for the inner section of the comb to draw out because it has less centrifugal force at the smaller dia. That being said if you were going with a crank only then I would go with a tangential. However, I am lazy and I would never put up with a crank. Starting a tractor maybe, but turning butter, ice cream or extracting honey, never.


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## mrqb (Jul 17, 2011)

if you buy the right one the hand crank can be replaced with your trusty ol craftsman half inch drill,you won't be the first to try and it works great,but i like radial over tang


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

I bought a motorized 18/9 radial (18 small or medium frames, 9 deep). No mater what we did, we couldn't get the thing balanced and constantly blew comb at the slowest speed, we couldn't get it to spin any slower than what we were doing it at and still blew out frames. When I started talking to people here on, they had told me my first mistake was not buying a Dadant or Maxant. I'll tell you what, at first I though "is there really that much of a difference?". After pullin the trigger on the Dadant, I will tell anyone "yes, there is that much of a difference." The quality and the feel is way better on the Dadant machine and I hear the Maxants awesome as well. I wished I had just spent the extra $ last year instead of buying something twice trying to save some cash. Because in the end I cost me in more money in loss of built comb and buying a the 2nd machine.

C2


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## Radford (Jul 13, 2010)

I got the Maxant 3/6/9 frame extractor and I love it.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

You are a beekeeper. So you want to spend your money ONCE, spend it WELL, and spend it WISELY! With the price of honey up, with local demand out of sight, now would be a good time to invest in processing equipment. Nickel plated stainless does not loose its value. It will only increase!!! As stated above, if you intend to grow, then buy something that you will grow into. Thus prevent spending money twice for the same purpose. TED


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

Ted, well said and exactly my point, you try and take the easy (cheap) way out, and it will cost ya. Do it right, research it and buy it only once.

C2


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

Acebird said:


> A disadvantage of the tangential extractor is it creates a force that is perpendicular to the frame and as a result will tend to blow out the comb.


 100pct agree plus with a tangential you'll spend all your time flipping frames back and forth and not uncapping the next batch of frames... If you haven't used one before you extract 50pct of one side then flip the frame around and extract 100pct of other side then flip them again and do remaining 50pct........Pain in the keester........


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Nickel plated stainless does not loose its value. TED


This can't be right. Who in their right mind would nickel plate stainless. I don't know one manufacturer from another but I would not use nickel plate in an environment of honey. If the steel is carbon I would want the surface powder coated or some form of epoxy. I know galvanized is used quite a bit but I think that is the cheap way out also.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Most problems with hand crank extractors or powered one are caused by the crank operating them. When I was inexperienced at putting together frames and foundation, Shaazamm! I had trouble extracting. Until I learned that frames need to be warm before extracting, I had problems. Until my early poor workmanship got all blown up, I had problems with my first powered extractor blowing frames up! Of course with the powered one, the frame blowing out likes company and takes three or four with it! It is all part of a learning curve. Just be patient and go slow whatever you are using. That said, if you are in your first couple of year, hire your extracting done. If you decide you are going to keep bees, you will almost inevitably suffer from Colony Creep. You will end up with more colonies than you initially planned so buy bigger than you need. It will always make the job easier and it only costs a little more to go first class.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

All hobbies are addicting at first and then usually taper off as time goes on. Many people have to have the best of the best and that is their prerogative. Economically speaking, I believe in not going over your head. Because the first pitfall you encounter could discourage you into giving up all together. Stay within your means and you will enjoy it more. Extraction is a simple process to the point where you don't even need a machine. Simply uncap the frames, mount inverted and warm the honey and it will come out. Return the frames to the hive and the bees will fix everything.


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

There's a reason there is the saying "people get into bees for the bees, but get out because of honey"

C2


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

All good food grade Stainless steel honey extracting equipment and food industry equipment for that matter, is made from a grade of stainless called by the steel industry-Nickel plated stainless steel. Nickel is the main constituent of that type of steel. It does not mean it is "plated". It is just an industrial "term". I certainly do not want to eat any honey if it is not processed in a sanitary way. That means a facility that meets industry guidelines and will pass a home land security check. When the New edition of the Hive and the Honey bee comes out soon, look in the chapter on honey extracting equipment and facilities. You will see my processing plant and my processing equipment in the pages for you to see. It is all "nickel plated" stainless steel. TK


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_72&products_id=366

This is nearly a $6000.00 machine and they only use type 304 stainless. Most of the applications that I have dealt with in medical industry require 316 passivated stainless, polished to a mirror finish. Much of what I have seen in the food and restaurant industry is the same because you are trying to control germ growth.

There is such a thing as nickel plated stainless steel and it is a plating on stainless steel. Applications appear to be more electrical in nature. I would be very highly suspicious that any plated material would be allowed on surfaces that come in contact with food because plating peals, especially on stainless. It is difficult to plate.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

The correct term is Nickel Ferrous steel, O.K>But everybody I ever knew in this industry that produces more honey than you can even think about, calls it Nickel plated Stainless......The core is steel and the outside is nickel plated ......And the system I have is not 6000 dollars but is the WHOLE 120 frame Cowan air ram system with a 5000 square foot processing plant designed just for the purpose of honey production. Cost is as much as your house probably! Choosing good sound honey extracting equipment is kind of like choosing a wife. Choose wisely and you will have many years of mechanical bliss extracting honey. Choose wrongly, you will look at your sledge hammer more times than you will care to admit to in an extracting season. TED


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Choose wrongly, you will look at your sledge hammer more times than you will care to admit to in an extracting season. TED


ahhh yes, but instead of the sledge hammer it's wanting blow the thing up. Here on our farm, sledge hammers do not inflict enough damage. Someone will come along and hammer it out and then say good as new


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

:lookout:


Acebird said:


> This can't be right. Who in their right mind would nickel plate stainless. I don't know one manufacturer from another but I would not use nickel plate in an environment of honey. If the steel is carbon I would want the surface powder coated or some form of epoxy. I know galvanized is used quite a bit but I think that is the cheap way out also.


Just so you'll know the sprockets and chains on Cowen Uncappers are nickel plated, but not nickel plated stainless steel. I don't imagine there is such a thing.

I think I've stepped into a Hornets nest :lookout:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> The correct term is Nickel Ferrous steel, TED


Thank you very much. I would hope that the parts that come in direct contact with the honey that ends up going to the consumer are not plated and are at least 304 stainless (the lower grade).

I don't have the experience in bee keeping but I sure have it with machinery and equipment. I did it for a living for 35 years.



> Just so you'll know the sprockets and chains on Cowen Uncappers are nickel plated, but not nickel plated stainless steel. I don't imagine there is such a thing.


There is but you wouldn't want to use it in a food application. Nickel is soft and it pits very quickly. The nickel plating is primarily for bling. It fools fools that don't know any better. Powder coating and epoxies are far more durable and last longer. But if the OEM's have already got their customers fooled all the power to them. Any plating, painting, or coating is a step down from just using stainless because there is nothing to flake or break off when it gets banged around in use.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Now back to Jim's question, I would suggest taking a close look at the Maxant 3100H, you can sling both ways with this extractor and it is easy to upgrade to motorized.....yes I do have one 8) I chose it over the 20 frame because I extract in my kitchen and need it to be portable.


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I guess I'm just glad Cowen decided to use nickel "plated" chains and sprockets. If they had used solid stainless steel an uncapper would probably cost 7500.00 instead of 5500.00.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

A bit of knit picking I think, with maybe a bit of history behind it. I dont think we are questioning that either stainless steel or nickle plating is adequate for honey. The extractor we are using has the cast iron upper supports nickel plated and the other parts of basket and tank are stainless sheet. The frame cages can be swung over, so flipping to do the other side is quick.

Question; on the radial drums, does the wind flow cause any difference in extraction from the leading or trailing face of the frames? Otherwords is reverse rotation any advantage?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

As I stated earlier, before I was side tracked, Beekeepers, when it comes to Good Quality extracting equipment--Spend your money once, spend it Well and spend it wisely. If you are going to grow, then buy something you can grow into. TED


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

Evidentally putting an icon to show that you are enjoying the thread is "off topic".

C2


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> If they had used solid stainless steel an uncapper would probably cost 7500.00 instead of 5500.00.


http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Extractor/NickelPlatedChain002.jpg

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Extractor/NickelPlatedChain003.jpg

This is a nickel plated chain on a gate operator. It is approximately 4 years old. The support bracket is stainless steel of the same age. This chain has only been exposed to weather, not something as corrosive as honey.

I don’t know what your uncapping machine looks like I have never seen one up close but I would doubt that the chain runs through the honey. If it did plastic might be a better choice and everything the chain came in contact would be a mess of sticky honey.

I looked up prices of chain for comparison.

#40 size
304 stainless was 19 per foot
316 stainless was 57 per foot
plastic was 22 per foot
corrosion resistant (possibly nickel plate) was 7.32 per foot
FDA compliant (acetal) was 11.10 per foot
Run of the mill roller chain was 3.43 per foot.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

dulley said:


> I am going to buy a hand-crank honey extractor. I have just six hives, so a small one is fine for me. I am trying to decide whether to get a tangential or radial design. I realize a radial design is more convenient to use because both sides are extracted at the same time, but does it get as much honey out of frames as a tangential model where each side is extracted separately?
> 
> Thanks, Jim


I buy a radial-extactor. You got one more design Parallel-Radial extractor but I very seen one use a hand-crank
just my $0.02

BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

This is the cutter most large operations are using. The chains are nickel plated and are constantly coated in honey. We have used them for decades and I have never seen any rust or degrading of the metal. http://www.cowenmfg.com/pages.asp?pageid=97409


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

t:
While I am surprised our moderator has not stopped this back and forth, I will continue to play along. Your comparison is not valid. It does not compare apples to apples. Your gate opener chain is exposed to the elements 24/7, 365 days a year. Extreme temps from 10 degrees to 110 degrees, rain, sleet, snow, not to mention UV rays.
Beekeepers, if they are fortunate, use their equipment for a short period once a year. They then clean it and store it for the year, inside of course.


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## PCM (Sep 18, 2007)

jim lyon said:


> We have used them for decades and I have never seen any rust or degrading of the metal. http://www.cowenmfg.com/pages.asp?pageid=97409


You old experienced guys are just trying to confuse a few newbees with facts, shame, shame !!


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Yep, and we wash down every day. Even wash the equipment that we can with out contaminating the honey with water. Thanks Jim for showing the cowan uncapper. We have had many years use out of ours. We have made a couple of modifications that greatly improved efficiency. TED


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wdcrkapry205 said:


> t:
> Beekeepers, if they are fortunate, use their equipment for a short period once a year. They then clean it and store it for the year, inside of course.


You can't validate a machine on a once a year use. That doesn't fly with the FDA.

Two things, rain sleet and snow are all the same thing, water. UV doesn't break down metals.

Secondly, I have nothing against plating the chain and sprockets of this machine because the honey that may get on it does not go to the customer. I would also assume these parts are greased with food grade grease which probably protects the chain and sprockets more than the nickel plate. Although the equipment is running so slow (5 seconds per frame) the end user probably doesn't use any lubricant. If it was used once a year and put a way the sprockets could be made of wood and last a life time.

Thanks for the photo BTW you can clearly see that the major portions of the machine are stainless steel and not plated.


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

I hate to break this to you, but the honey that contacts the chain and sprocket drips into whatever you are using as a reservoir, be it a melter, sump or spinner. Then it's on it's way to your table. Maybe some day you will actually get to use one.


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## PCM (Sep 18, 2007)

How about if some Individual were to install a ceiling fan motor in the extractor can under the basket/frame holder, would that be FDA approved ?

Sorry, I had to throw that in !
Won't say who.

PCM


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

wdcrkapry205 said:


> While I am surprised our moderator has not stopped this back and forth.


A moderator should let this roll, I for one am curious where it will lead. There is something to still learn about the actual metal used in the extractors and chain uncappers that I for one would like to see come to a resolution. This is what a forum is about, educating and right now, we are learning. I would love to hear what Maxant has to say as he actually uses the metal(s) and makes the very products this is about. I would think that he has been through this.

C2


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Well, Bat he is sitting back with a bag of popcorn that he has by now taken off the stove watching the fireworks. Something else to ponder. Extractors have gotten thinner in the gage steel the companies are using. My 120 frame Cowan is the old thick steel. The 33 Maxant and Kelleys I had were the old thick gage steel. While you now would pay more for such a machine, the quality is better. TED


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

PCM said:


> How about if some Individual were to install a ceiling fan motor in the extractor can under the basket/frame holder, would that be FDA approved ?
> PCM


Absolutely not! It is plated too. However, it is for my own use and if I so choose I can put a slinger disk below the frames and keep any honey from touching the motor itself.



> I hate to break this to you, but the honey that contacts the chain and sprocket drips into whatever you are using as a reservoir, be it a melter, sump or spinner. Then it's on it's way to your table.


That is definitely a problem. Pretty serious one too. My question now is to the manufacturer as is the chain indeed plated and is the equipment meant to be use in that fashion? Or is the end user unaware of how the equipment is supposed to be run. Either way, in the eyes of the FDA it is a manufacturers problem.


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## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

We have always used 20 and 18 gauge. One of the few on the market that do so.
We only use 304. No need for 316. 
I dont know of anyone that uses SS higher than 304?


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## Ron Mann (Jul 17, 2009)

MAXANT said:


> We only use 304. No need for 316.


I would agree with this.

We use 316 and hastaloid in our process at work, but it has high tempertures and pressures , and is extreamly corrosive.

304 will do just fine in honey extracting enviroment.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I didn't say there was a need for 316. What is most important is that the steel is polished and that there are no cracks or crevices that will entrap debris for germs to grow in. The concern is not the stainless. The concern is plated parts that get coated with honey and if that honey will end up in a container that goes to the customer. A second concern is plated parts in a wear application (example: chain and sprockets) whereby warn particles can end up in the customers container.

One of the biggest disadvantage of a belt drive above a tank is the warn particles of the belt falling into the tank. The FDA is extremely critical of this type of design and makes a manufacture go to extremes to seal up these drives to prevent contamination. Motors can be hermetically sealed so a direct drive application above or BELOW the spinning frames would be perfectly acceptable.

Or in the case of a standard cloths washer the motor and belt drive are below the tub and basket and a sealed shaft goes up through the center. If you are so inclined to tinker a cloths washer would make an excellent project for extracting honey. It has the perfect suspension for balance and is easy to load and unload. You could literally take the agitator out of any washer cut the shaft off then put a small hand crank extractor inside the basket and block it in so it stays central. Set it on spin and let-r-rip. You got the timer the drive and the whole works using any small cheap extractor that will fit in.

It is an idea for anyone that is mechanically adept and has a respect for fast spinning objects.


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## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

Here is some info for various applications between the 2. THe main thing to note with 316, is that its better in a chloride environment. 

Typical applications 304

• Food processing equipment, particularly in beer brewing, milk processing & wine making.

• Kitchen benches, sinks, troughs, equipment and appliances

• Architectural panelling, railings & trim

• Chemical containers, including for transport

• Heat Exchangers

• Woven or welded screens for mining, quarrying & water filtration

• Threaded fasteners

• Springs

Typical applications 316

• Food preparation equipment particularly in chloride environments.

• Laboratory benches & equipment.

• Coastal architectural panelling, railings & trim.

• Boat fittings.

• Chemical containers, including for transport.

• Heat Exchangers.

• Woven or welded screens for mining, quarrying & water filtration.

• Threaded fasteners.

• Springs.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

MAXANT said:


> THe main thing to note with 316, is that its better in a chloride environment.


The most widely used disinfectant for food prep and processing is chlorine. That is why your "silverware" (actually stainless) is 316 because you run it through the dishwasher.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

Do your homework, Acebird. Typical stainless tableware is 304 alloy, aka "18/8" or "18/10" in the housewares market.


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## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

Not always true.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Ace, Clothes washers are NOT considered a device for processing a food product in such as honey. Please go tour a modern extracting facility, preferable a commercial setup. The guidelines for equipment used in the processing of honey are 1-Stainless or 2-food grade plastic. No Ans, Ifs, or buts about it. All it is going to take is one incident where somebody accidently made someone else deathly sick from contaiminated honey processed in an unsanitary device in an unsanitary way. The press gets a hold of that and the industry as a whole, hobby, sideline and commercial is ruined!!! The same for the honey house, the building that the product is being processed in itself applies here also-But that is another post at another time. TED


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Question. Does the FDA actually specify what types of materials honey extractors must be made off? Do they perform inspections to check? 

I would think that for food processing, local health codes and the NSF have more immediate implications.


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## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

No. Varies by state.
Canadians have regulation however.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Question. Does the FDA actually specify what types of materials honey extractors must be made off? Do they perform inspections to check?


The FDA doesn't specify anything. In medical applications they require you (the manufacturer) to validate your processes and your equipment. If the OEM has validated equipment for products that they sell then that has saved you a ton of paperwork and testing. However if you modify the equipment you just blew away your validation and then you have to validate the equipment you are using.

I am unfamiliar with what the FDA does in the food industry but I would suggest something similar would occur. Inspections are based on risk to the public so larger companies, processes, get much more attention. As you might expect the inspectors look for infractions which amount to fines to support the bureaucracy. It is a lot easier getting big bucks out of big companies and big companies will have the greatest impact on the general public's health. It wouldn't take too many 10,000 dollar fines on a small company to put it under and they are not going to look for a 100 dollar infraction. That wouldn't even cover the traveling expenses of the inspector.

Most people realize that honey is rather safe because of its natural antibiotics that are contained within. What triggers the FDA's attention is a recall, an outbreak or an abnormal complaint history. You are required to keep records and that is the first one they want to see.

Has any major producer of honey ever been inspected by the FDA?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

DeeAnna said:


> Do your homework, Acebird. Typical stainless tableware is 304 alloy, aka "18/8" or "18/10" in the housewares market.


You might find that 18/10 would be an older designation for 316. 18/8 for 304.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

It is not the FDA you have to worry about. It is the occasional visit by USDA, State Dept, Of Ags and believe it or not, now, HOMELAND SECURITY!!! They shut a couple of commercials down last year in Georgia untill they got their act together in the honey house. WE have been visited by USDA inspector before. They spot check around the nation. The state of Alabama dept of Ag, comes in and takes samples of honey and wax testing for pesticides residue. I expect one day to have a visit by Homeland before it is all over. Sioux test everything we ship to them in the lab....SO, if I have to meet a higher regulatory standard, then you too should meet or excede that standard. What is the standard??? Contact the national honey board for that information. It is more than I want to deal with in this short post. They will tell you what it takes to have a perfect 150 point extracting and honey processing plant. People, always remember that you are producing a food product for consumption . TREAT IT AS SUCH!! So if that means forking out a few extra dollars for a good extracting setup preferable stainless, DO SO. It will pay for itself in the long run in extra sales when you brag to your customers that you meet the national standard. Remember-Spend your money ONCE, Spend it WELL and Spend it WISELY!! TED


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

In the honey industry, it is the small local beeks that are putting bottles of honey on the table of America's households. Sure Packing entities like Sioux and Dutch Gold sell a lot of bottled honey BUT....Most of what Commercial beeks produce goes into industrial usage. If you are eating General Mills breakfast cereals, then you are eating maybe some of my honey because Sioux sells them industrial grade honey. So everyone, big beekeeper and small, should strive for a clean perfect product and protect the wholesome image honey has. TED


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

MAXANT said:


> No. Varies by state.
> ....


Exactly what I was thinking. State or local regulations apply. I have bottled my own BBQ sauce (in conjuction with a small catering business that I operate) so I understand my state and local health regulations pretty good (certified kitchen, using a commissary, or copacker, etc.). I assume that bottling honey would be a similar situation. If that is the case, all I would be concerned with if I were to start bottling and marketing honey under my own lable is that the equipment that I use is NSF (National Sanitation Foundation) certified. After that, I dont care what kind of stainless it is made of.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> The FDA doesn't specify anything. In medical applications they require you (the manufacturer) {big snip}


THe question was aimed at people who have actual experience bottling honey for commercial sale, or those people who sell actual commercial equipment. Why are you talking about medical equipment that lends no value to the discussion at hand? A simple yes or no would suffice. 

Earlier in this thread (post numbers 24 and 28) you proclaim that in your 35 years of experience "_Most of the applications that I have dealt with in medical industry require 316 passivated stainless, polished to a mirror finish. Much of what I have seen in the food and restaurant industry is the same because you are trying to control germ growth_." 

There you go again with the medical industry. Do you seriously think that the medical industry is similar to the food industry? 



Acebird said:


> I am unfamiliar with what the FDA does in the food industry..... {Yawn, another big snip}


If you are _*unfamilier*_ with the FDA, why are you commenting about honey processing when the FDA doesnt apply? Additionally, you claim 35 years of experience working with medical equipment yet later claim that you are _*unfamilier*_ with the FDA. What's up with that?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Laws are laws, but it is the local food inspector that will put the squeeze on you, and they do not all read the laws the same. He/she will be back, make an improvement on that they complained about, and point it out on the next visit. They are GENERALLY rational people, and as long as you keep improving, will GENERALLY be understanding.

Crazy Roland


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## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

Remember, the OP was asking a question about radial and tangential. How did we get into a heated discussion on metallurgy ???


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> There you go again with the medical industry. Do you seriously think that the medical industry is similar to the food industry?


Duh, yes. Maybe that's why they call it the FOOD and Drug Administration. I am sure the packers who supply General Mills are very cognizant of the FDA. No back yard or side line bee keeper is supplying honey for General Mills. Which is what I was trying to get across when I made comparisons to the medical industry.



> Remember, the OP was asking a question about radial and tangential. How did we get into a heated discussion on metallurgy ???


Because I made a statement to stay within his means that differed from someone else. There was no indication from the OP that he had intentions of becoming a big commercial operator. Actually others agreed with me. His choice of extractor will depend on what he values his money over his time. People spin honey in a garbage barrel using a drill for Gods sake. There are no records at a farmers market as to tracability of the honey and how it was produced. But I can guarrantee you there are at General Mills. That is the comparison form medical production to food production.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Sure the FDA regulates the safety of food products in a general sense, but they have no jurisdiction over what materials (metals) can be used in honey production equipment. You claim to know, so prove it. All you have to do is provide a link to an FDA website that specifies what type of materials may come into contact with honey, whether it be medical grade, 304 stainless, 316 stainless, hot dip galvanized, nickel plated titanium, or whatever. 

If you believe that the FDA regulates the medical industry the same way that it regulates the food industry, your argument has lost all credibility and is null and void.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Your rambling. Go back and find a post where I said any of that.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

No small beeks are supplying honey to General mills, that is true BUT you are supplying honey directly to the public in the form of bottled sales or gifts...So who is more apt to kill someone with a contaminated unclean extracting set up?? YOU, the hobbyist or me, the commercial guy that does supply honey for industrial usage through a large packing entity??? I will not eat honey extracted in a converted clothes washer, nor will I eat honey that is produced by someone spinning it with an electric drill in a converted garbage can. People, it is a food product that someone is going to feed to their children!!! SO TREAT IT AS SUCH!!! TED


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Ted, I must ask, who do you think you are to contradict the allmighty ACEBIRD?????


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Just another commercial beekeeper, like yourself, defending the industry and protecting the wholesome image of honey......TED


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

10 4 Ted. 

Commercial doesn't just mean big. It also means dedicated, devoted and enduring.


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