# Fall feeders



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Yes they are worth the investment. Sometimes a bit messy but the best method of feeding in the fall. It gives then 2.5 gallons right over the cluster which allows feeding through cooler weather. Also avoids the robbing issues as hive top feeders create. And also allows feeding without removing frames or opening the hive


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Are the ones from beemaid a better choice, or is any pail cover good? I noticed that they have the screw cap so the lid doesn't have to be removed, that would save time and keep the lids from wearing out too. Have you ever put your lid screens on before or did you always get them preassembled ? I bought some screens a while ago and I was going to try and install them to see if I could do it successfully before just buying pails locally, or just bite the bullet and pay for the proper lids. 
My time is worth something but a couple hundred pails is expensive too, but hey what's a couple thousand dollars these days ! Lol


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## pleasantvalley (May 22, 2014)

Why not hive top feeders? 
They will last way longer, and you can put a float in them. They do cost more and require more warehouse space on the other hand. They are really fast to fill. I put a 1500 gallon tank on the truck with a 2 inch Honda pump and 1 1/4" hose and can put up to 4.5 gallons in 40 hives in less than 10 minutes. Also, no waste from spilling.
Pails get brittle in the sun over time, and seem to be targets for vandals of the human and animal variety.
Ian, I'm not sure how you get robbing from hive top feeders? I put my regular canvas inner cover over top of the feeders and put my regular lid back on top. Never had a problem.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Ben:

If the are few to no other bees around then keep open feeding. So fast, efficient and if done right very little loss of bees. 

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

pleasantvalley said:


> Ian, I'm not sure how you get robbing from hive top feeders? I put my regular canvas inner cover over top of the feeders and put my regular lid back on top. Never had a problem.


ya, a canvas cover will help. 
Guys here are selling their hive tops and buying pails

I dont know, grass is always greener... lol I have thought about hive top feeders many times for just the reason you stated !


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

Ben Little said:


> Are the ones from beemaid a better choice, or is any pail cover good? I noticed that they have the screw cap so the lid doesn't have to be removed, that would save time and keep the lids from wearing out too. Have you ever put your lid screens on before or did you always get them preassembled ? I bought some screens a while ago and I was going to try and install them to see if I could do it successfully before just buying pails locally, or just bite the bullet and pay for the proper lids.
> My time is worth something but a couple hundred pails is expensive too, but hey what's a couple thousand dollars these days ! Lol


We just use a heat gun to melt the screen right into the lid. Works well as long as you do not overheat and melt through.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

jean-marc said:


> Ben:
> 
> If the are few to no other bees around then keep open feeding. So fast, efficient and if done right very little loss of bees.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Absolutely agree Jean-Marc. Great feeling to be in and out of a bee yard in 5 min and knowing you have fed each hive an average of 1.5 gallons.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Witch screening are you using. 
David


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

So a hive top feeder has it's pros and cons like anything, do any of you build your own ? If so how do you keep them from leaking ? And is it worth building them vs buying , because I don't have much time after my regular job during the week to build unless it is going to save me big $$ to do so.
I do see some of them that are dipped in wax before shipping, that must be a big advantage ! ?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I had a very strange experience yesterday. I have three hives on a stand, two of which have hivetop feeders and one that has a frame feeder. I do not suit up to feed and I pour the sugar-water through the screened inner cover. The first hive top feeder had maybe 20 dead bees. The feeder did not have a tear in the screen from the hive. I fed all three hives and the bees formed a cloud around the tops of all of the hives. It appeared they were either attempting to rob or defend. One of the little b's even stung me. They did not settle down until dark.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

Ben Little said:


> do any of you build your own ? If so how do you keep them from leaking ? And is it worth building them vs buying


yes and yes. Build my own cuz the type I build dont think can be bought. Look on Youtube under FATBEEMAN NO LEAK FEEDER. Easy to build, no bees drown, and you can adapt it to anything you have.


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## wdale (Jun 27, 2014)

For the bee keepers with small operations 10 or so hive, This what I have been using:
Plastic Inside Hive Top Feeder
http://www.glorybee.com/shop/images/P/16349.jpg


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I purchased the plans for the FBM feeder, it doesn't hold enough feed for my liking. I have 180 colonies this fall to feed and I am trying to do it without going in debt too much. I am just undecided on what way to go, I have fed them with a frame feeder all along and I don't like it for fall feeding. I think it will be too cold for an attempt at open feeding, since it is getting colder each day and no signs of getting better. I do like the hive top feeder and it is simple. I might buy some this fall and make my own through the winter for expanding next year, I hope to be at 300 colonies for next fall.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Ben Little said:


> I purchased the plans for the FBM feeder, it doesn't hold enough feed for my liking. I have 180 colonies this fall to feed and I am trying to do it without going in debt too much. I am just undecided on what way to go, I have fed them with a frame feeder all along and I don't like it for fall feeding. I think it will be too cold for an attempt at open feeding, since it is getting colder each day and no signs of getting better. I do like the hive top feeder and it is simple. I might buy some this fall and make my own through the winter for expanding next year, I hope to be at 300 colonies for next fall.


Have you looked at the MIller feeder plans in Build It Yourself Section. Hold a couple of gallons. It is good to wax all the walls of the tanks to prevent mildew. Also siliconed all joints before nailing and did all the corners as well.

I simplified the joints.


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

Ben, How about going with this "FD-109 10 Frame Top Feeder Insert". These are plastic feeder inserts that wont leak. Just caulk the screen after it is installed and the bees can't visit you. They hold something like four gallons, and you only need to build the box if you want. I'm not a commercial beekeeper, but this is the best hive top feeder I have found.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I can almost guarantee it is not too cold. Bees will fly at 9-10 degrees C to open feed. Get a drum for every 12 hives for surface area. Fill to desired level. Gone in 3 days first time filled. Gone in a day and a half second time. Gone a little less time the third time around. You may fill it half way the first time around gives about a gallon and a half per hive. Add plenty of straw to prevent drowning. Allen Martens has some nice pictures of his tanks. Those look like 1 tank for 20 hives or so. The idea is to have a large surface area for the bees to land and feed. It reduces the drowning.

I would say to try it on a yard of 20 to 30 hives. Put 2-3 drums of syrup. It may take a better part of a day for them to find it , then watch out. It is very impressive. Surely they can't be that thirsty, but they sure is drinking, comes to mind. 

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Open feeding is nice. Its hard to equate pouring that syrup into the barrel, and the next day its equally dispersed between the hives. 
It works great. 
I like to use the pail when administering meds


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## OlofL (Jan 21, 2006)

I'm mostly using plastic bags. They are put in a ordinary box with a board for the bees to get up behind. Straw or similar is needed for the bees not to drown. A short film of it
http://youtu.be/LRTvZEF-zmc
and a picture of the board
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_fadXqjI5wyU/TJRmLpH6eUI/AAAAAAAAB9M/yeRWnC1snEc/s1600/DSC_0264.JPG


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## Makin' Honey (Sep 13, 2010)

I am curious does anyone use candy boards to supplement for winter feed? Back in the day if we didn't get enough liquid feed in before the cold we would just add a 20 or 30 pound candy board.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I remember making candy boards but if I would have known how much better mountain camp feeding was then, I sure would have saved the effort.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I get better winter survival with fondant or candy boards than I do with sugar. I think the sugar gets inverted with those methods and the bees do better. Just my experience. Also, a study reported that the mountain camp method can cause nosema.


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## Belewsboy (Jun 6, 2012)

I prefer open feeding. 5 gallons at a time. Fast. Easy. No mess and doesn't drown bees.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Belewsboy said:


> I prefer open feeding. 5 gallons at a time. Fast. Easy. No mess and doesn't drown bees.
> View attachment 13606


I almost forgot about the bucket outside feeder. Do you drill some holes into the side of the bucket also? And did any
syrup leaked onto the board?


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## markus (Oct 22, 2013)

jean-marc said:


> Ben:
> 
> If the are few to no other bees around then keep open feeding. So fast, efficient and if done right very little loss of bees.
> 
> Jean-Marc


I concur. Open feeding is all I have done for the past 12 years. Feeding more than a few hives individually is a pain in the arse. In a yard of 20 colonies, the bees will completely empty 260 lbs. of 2:1 syrup in 6 hours. Yes, there are some wasps being fed but I don't care. If you have other peoples bees or wild bees nearby it is not such a great option.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I use 1 tote per 10 hives. The totes hold tops about 15 gallons so that's way I can feed 1.5 gallons per round.

11 C here yesterday and the bees took down a gallon per hive in the yard I checked.

Fed 300 hives 1 gallon each yesterday evening. Took pics at the first yard.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Good idea using a tote, bigger surface area for the bees  I think I will try that this fall


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Belewsboy said:


> I prefer open feeding. 5 gallons at a time. Fast. Easy. No mess and doesn't drown bees.


How many colonies do you have in the location of the open feeder?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Ben Little said:


> I am soon getting things ready for fall feeding and I want to use open feeding to start with and then pail feeding.
> I have frame feeders that I use in the spring but I don't want to have to open them up for refilling all the time while it is getting cooler and also taking out 2 frames to put in a feeder is a pain in the butt.
> 
> So I want to invest in pail feeders, my question is : Are pail feeders worth investing into ? How long do they last if cared for properly ?
> ...


Might be too cold in Canada, but I use a screened inner cover and just pour the syrup through. this also strains it in case there is dirt in the syrup.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Allen, do you find those totes get brittle after a couple years? I have RubberMaid as you have there and Im loosing them to cracking.
Open feeding was not an option for me 5 years ago as I had neighboring beekeepers too close. Now, either they all retired, went bankrupt or moved out, so I have my space to myself now. I have been open feeding during the springs and it works great, other than this spring... when good flight weather is needed for feeding.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I have some yards with 32 + hives in them and no other beekeepers that I know of around, so I think I am safe to do open feeding as soon as the flow starts to dwindle a little more.


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## pleasantvalley (May 22, 2014)

Ben Little said:


> I have some yards with 32 + hives in them and no other beekeepers that I know of around, so I think I am safe to do open feeding as soon as the flow starts to dwindle a little more.


My biggest concern wouldn't be that the neighbors hives steal sugar, it's that the strongest hives will take up all the feed, and the weaker ones end up light. How much sugar do you feed? My hives are heavy going into fall, so I'll only give them 3-4 gallons each. That would require you either filling 3 or 4 barrels per yard (assuming 40 gallons fits in a barrel), or making 3-4 trips to refill.

Edit: It's a rainy afternoon here and the guys are finishing up sealing a few new feeders. They are made from Western Bee mediums, we dado them at the bottom to insert a piece of 1/4" plywood which has a 1/2" piece cut out in the center. PL400 over all seams and knots, and when that dries up, a urethane coating overtop so they never leak. The packing crate staple on top ensures that our canvas inner covers don't block the opening.
After everything dries up, we put a piece of 1/8" plywood with 1" holes cut into it for floats.


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## Belewsboy (Jun 6, 2012)

Hey Beepro...
I drilled 1/16 dia holes around the rim above where the lid snaps into place. When you snap the lid on, it forms a narrow groove between the bucket and the lid, so the bees really can't drown in the groove. 
When you invert the bucket there is some initial leaking until a vacuum is created inside, so the trick is to fill the bucket as full as you can to minimize the air pocket inside.
It's kinda funny but last year all my hives started gaining weight quite quickly when I open fed except one (I weigh my hives). That hive showed no interest in the bucket, so I had to put a top feeder on the hive and then they started taking it. Maybe they were intimidated by the frenzy around the bucket!







.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Most of all the hives have 1 full deep of honey and the bottom box 1/4 full, still a lot of brood in my hives, they are bringing in lots of goldenrod still. So I will have to wait until it slows to find out who is heavy and who isn't. But either way this is more about a financial standpoint right now for me then anything, I don't have 3-4 thousand to spend on feeders right now to feed 180 hives, I would rather put my money into feed then feeders this fall and next season work on either buying or building a hive top feeder for them. I guess the ROI is what I have to look at right now. If I had no other option then to buy feeders I would. It still may come down to pulling frames and inserting frame feeders on weak hives , which I hate using, but they are effective in spring. 
I guess it is really just a hard decision for me right now


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## Makin' Honey (Sep 13, 2010)

Ian said:


> Allen, do you find those totes get brittle after a couple years? I have RubberMaid as you have there and Im loosing them to cracking.


Ian, I have found painting anything plastic, like the totes, with aluminum paint makes it last several more years. Aluminum paint is small flecks of metal and the sun cannot shine through it thus protecting the plastic from the harmful rays. Victor H


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian, I have some feeders that are about 10 years old. Most are still good. Some broke. I am hoping to get about 10 years out of them on average. The newer ones are not as strong as the older ones but don't seem to get brittle as quickly. I use them for about 2 months in fall and about 20 % of the feeders in spring. 5 years seems quick to get brittle. Spring use is random so maybe that is extending their life.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Pleasantvalley, that's the beauty of open feeding. The big hives get enough for winter and not a lot of feed is wasted on the small hives.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Makin' Honey said:


> Ian, I have found painting anything plastic, like the totes, with aluminum paint makes it last several more years. Aluminum paint is small flecks of metal and the sun cannot shine through it thus protecting the plastic from the harmful rays. Victor H



Ben, I know budget is very tight on expansion in your case. So we have to improvise a little here. Trying to give you as many
ideas here. How about going for the 5 gal buckets; the one that I ask about the 1/16" holes here. They are cheap and free most of the time 
at the local Chinese restaurant for holding soy sauce. Either that or buy the gray color ones at the local home improvement store.
I think the gray one is UV protected whereas the white ones are not. Then aluminum paint the white ones for longer lasting. Get 10 or more?

Another way is to get the free (here) 55 gal. syrup drums from the soda company. They have many different sizes, color and is UV stabilized. 
Some are used for holding soap solution. Make sure they are the food grade type. A hand held grinder will easily cut it apart for your bees to escape. 
I got mine for 10 bucks each delivered to my house for being too lazy to goto the soda company just 5 minutes away from my house. Either way I turned one into a TBH cut in half. I can easily convert it into a feeder alright. I'm sure you can turn one or a lot into a bee feeder either side way or standing. And the plastic chemical will never leak out that the inside is already coated. So how many of these syrup drums can you make?



Blue 55 gal. drum:


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I have been experimenting with making hive top or bottom feeders for 5 frame nucs. I had some spacers I made up in a hurry last spring (for feeding sugar slush) out of 1 by 4 lumber . 

By making cap and ladder feeders for these.
http://www.containerstore.com/shop/...=153&breadcrumbPageTitle=Search&mr=shoe+boxes
out of this mesh sleeve
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/120/1575/=tp50j3 It is the mesh item 5979k83 halfway down the page (Thanks Radar) placed over 1" PVC pipe I was able to make feeders that sat on the bottom board. When I added the box and then the spacer there was enough space under the frames for the bees to suck down the syrup. Of course the problem is that I don't have a pump for the syrup and have to refill them and walk them to the hives. When I put them on top I need two spacers as they are too tall. 
My preferred way for my 5 over 5 nucs is to use 1/2 gallon mason jars, but I don't have enough boxes to use as shells to cover them. I blame Michael Palmer again for EAS (expanding apiary syndrome).
Sorry, I didn't mean to butt into the commercial forum. I was following the "latest post" section and didn't notice where this thread was housed. For what it's worth I am at 60 colonies, not 600 or 6000!


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## markus (Oct 22, 2013)

Allen Martens said:


> I use 1 tote per 10 hives. The totes hold tops about 15 gallons so that's way I can feed 1.5 gallons per round.
> 
> 11 C here yesterday and the bees took down a gallon per hive in the yard I checked.
> 
> Fed 300 hives 1 gallon each yesterday evening. Took pics at the first yard.


Allen, does the wooden frame that supports your straw make a difference in numbers of drowned bees? I usually just place the straw on top of the syrup.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I'm heading for Walmart to get some totes this evening  I need to start feeding soon. I might buy some top feeders for the less fortunate hives that don't have a big work force


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

markus said:


> Allen, does the wooden frame that supports your straw make a difference in numbers of drowned bees? I usually just place the straw on top of the syrup.


I think it does. I have found that if I place the float so the four cross members are down I also get less drowning.

The floats also let me use the straw several times during a season and even if the straw deteriorates some, it still floats nicely. In spring I often use the same straw 5+ times.


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## mroark (Oct 2, 2012)

This is going to be my 2nd year with 150+ hives. Last year I used the 1 gallon mother load in hive feeders. I plan on expanding to 300 hives this year and really like the idea of open feeding. The guys I worked for last year run about 3000 hives and we have 250 or so in one location when making splits in the spring. I am curious if the tote method Allen uses would work with that many hives in one spot? As I mentioned my experience is limited but it seems like the bees would get whipped up into a frenzy and start robbing the weaker hives, is that not the case?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Make sure you have more surface space with that many hives. On a yard of 30, with fall time hive populations I had 4 totes and that seemed enough to stop the fighting and wrestling. Very little drowning.

I'm cerious about these comments on robbing. I only have trouble with hives that are not fit and should not be there anyway. If a beekeeper has dinks mixed in with the group, robbing is going to happen. Take those small hives to a nursing yard to fuss with. No use creating problems that are not needed


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

In spring I have 1000+ hives and nucs in one location for several weeks. My situation may different as my bees are wintered indoors. The first 3 or 4 days after the bees are moved into the spring holding yard the robbing pressure can be intense if the temperatures are higher and I am not feeding. If I have feed out, this is the easiest and first feed the bees locate and robbing is basically zero. After the first few days the eggs start hatching and robbing pressure decreases greatly with the bees being busy IF they have adequate liquid feed stared.

Open feeding reduces (really eliminates) robbing in my bee yards. However I don't have feral bees around nor do i have other bee yards close by. I'm not sure what would happen if a lot of bees were attracted from other locations and syrup out. Within my bee yards, I have never witnessed running out of syrup as a trigger for a robbing frenzy. 

In spring I don't need many feeder. 12-16 is sufficient for a 1000 hives. In fall I use 1 feeder for every 10 hives. As Ian stated enough surface area is very important.

Like any new strategy you would like to implement, start on a small yard, see if it works for you and your area, and then expand the test if you like your results.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Ben Little said:


> I am soon getting things ready for fall feeding and I want to use open feeding to start with and then pail feeding.
> I have frame feeders that I use in the spring but I don't want to have to open them up for refilling all the time while it is getting cooler and also taking out 2 frames to put in a feeder is a pain in the butt.
> 
> So I want to invest in pail feeders, my question is : Are pail feeders worth investing into ? How long do they last if cared for properly ?
> ...


last year I used a friends pails to feed in the fall. I think I had about 40 in use then moved them to a new set of hives after the first 40 were done. I did like them. The syrup has to be very thick and the pails dead level or they leak. I was thinking about buying this type of feeder but I was glad to have been able to try it first because I didn't really like them as much as the miller feeder.


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