# Copper for Mite control



## ClatsOre (Jul 27, 2004)

Any one know of any tests with copper be done for mite control and old Beekeeper said he picked some free copper screen for his hives. He uses it for bottom boards and feeds he makes He told me that the mites in the hives with the copper screen have dropped to all most zero  Im going to try it but I dont check my hives like I know some of you do, and would like to have some one give it a try and let me know.


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

My "Golden Rule of Beekeeping" may apply here:

Is it food safe, and will harm my bees?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000457#000002http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/cupric_salts.pdf
http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/anti_varroa_methods.pdf


----------



## ClatsOre (Jul 27, 2004)

He just has the copper metal screen in the bottom of four of his 20 his hives its got to be better than aluminum, or galvanized screen. He has top feeders on two hives with copper screen on them its food safe and bee safe as far as I know. He is not feeding them copper.


----------



## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

A copper screen should not effect honey whatsoever. Feeding them copper could be very bad. We need copper in our diet, but to much leads to very severe neurological problems. Copper is a very popular metal for household plumbing. Copper containers are food safe. 

For it to work, however, would mean that the copper is "poisoning" the mites. Possible I suppose. Excess copper is a neurotoxin. I guess the mites would have to be extremely sensitive to copper. 

Disclaimer: I'm no chemist or scientist.

[ June 21, 2006, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: MichaelW ]


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>A copper screen should not effect honey whatsoever . . .
Any test results??

>Feeding them copper could be very bad . . .
Any test results?

>to much leads to very severe neurological problems . . .
What do "we" and mites and honey bees have in common?

>Copper containers are food safe . . .
Where can I buy some?

>Copper is a very popular metal for household plumbing . . .

And without the coating that forms inside the pipe (protects the water from exposure), how much copper would be drinking?

>would mean that the copper is "poisoning" the mites . . .
Does it poison or REPEL mites?

>Disclaimer: I'm no chemist or scientist . . .
Me either


----------



## ClatsOre (Jul 27, 2004)

He said he did not see a lot of dead of dieing mite on the white sticky paper He just does not see any mites maybe one of two but in the other hives we see about 10 to 15 mites not bad but a lot more.


----------



## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

>>Copper containers are food safe . . .
>Where can I buy some?

Haven't you ever heard of a copper kettle

>Feeding them copper could be very bad . . .
Any test results?
If you feed them copper, in some form, and it contaminates your honey, then you eat the copper and your getting more copper than you probably should. Thats just logic.

>And without the coating that forms inside the pipe (protects the water from exposure), how much copper would be drinking?

http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/waterquality/442-944/442-944.pdf
Evaluation of
Household
Water Quality
in
Suffolk, Virginia

"Copper. The EPA health standard for copper in public drinking water supplies is 1.3 mg/L,
the maximum level recommended to protect people from acute gastrointestinal illness. Even
lower levels of dissolved copper may give water a bitter or metallic taste and produce bluegreen
stains on plumbing fixtures. Consequently, EPA has established an SMCL for copper of
1.0 mg/L in household water.
Two samples in both the both the tap water and raw water groups exceeded the recommended
health level of 1.3 mg/L. Four samples in each group exceeded the SMCL of 1.0 mg/L.
Since natural levels of copper in groundwater are low, and the primary contributor of copper in
drinking water is corrosion of copper water pipes and fittings, low copper levels were expected,
even in the case of tap water samples, assuming that water lines were flushed properly prior to
sampling, of which a number apparently were not."

Seeing PVC can leach;
Di(2-ethylhexyl)adipate;
Tetrachloroethylene;
Vinyl chloride;
http://www.vdh.virginia.gov/dw/files/swap_appendix_O.pdf
I'll take my plumbing in copper thank you very much. I just ran about 200 feet at my house for that reason.

>Disclaimer: I'm no chemist or scientist . . .

my disiclaimer was ment to void me from any obligation to provide supporting peer reviewed evidence.


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

The only copper kettle I have experience w/ is lined w/ tin to prevent the contents from coming into contact w/ the copper.

Iron, brass, zinc, and COPPER will discolor beeswax. What are its effect on honey?

>my disiclaimer was ment to void me from any obligation to provide supporting peer reviewed evidence . . .
Sorry youre upset.

[ June 21, 2006, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Dave W ]


----------



## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

"...is lined w/ tin .."

...hmm, true, good point.

I still say the effect of bees crawling over copper screen will have no effect on the honey or bee health. Its not like sticking a block of lead in there.

For the mites, if it repels' them are you thinking some kind of electro magnetic hoody doody?

I don't get upset over beesource. I should have added some







's after my response.


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>electro magnetic hoody doody . . .

Now we are talking! Lets wrap bare copper wire around our hives and hope for a LIGHTNING STRIKE







Mites all gone









Actually I was thinking about how a copper bracelet "repel" aches and pains









Maybe we could just put the bracelet in our smoker and let a "cool cloud green smoke" do the job.









I think this "copper thing" needs more research . . . please send money!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The problem with the lightening strike method is the wait for that to happen. I still think my dynamite method is more effective or at least more reliable. You just set a stick of dynamite off in the box... No more Varroa


----------



## Walt McBride (Apr 4, 2004)

To get off the subject as some of the threads do from time to time, have any of you seen the current price of copper pipe, WHOW WHOW.
Walt


----------



## Vabeeguy (Jun 15, 2006)

We use copper in our stills around here....never had any problems....hic up!


----------



## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

>"You just set a stick of dynamite off in the box"

I could agree with no more box and probably no more bees, but no more varroa? I wonder.


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>You just set a stick of dynamite off in the box... No more Varroa 

What's the average recovery time before honey is again flowing into the hive with your method?


----------



## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Copper is one of lifes mixed blessings.
We all know we use it in plumbing.

For years it was used in the pressure treatment of wood, but it was so toxic that it got banned from school yards and public park playgrounds because of the risk of exposure to kids. ( in Toronto at least )

It was also used in another form as a bottom paint for boats, especially in salt water, to keep of banrnacle etc, that is until the EPA got on the case and found it so toxic to marine life that it is now banned in the US.

It is also used in very low doses in some swimming pool chemicals as a sanitizer supplement with very weird results. Some blonde gals have their hair turn green from swimming in it. Stains pool decks etc. 

So it all depends on the formulation. I would keep it well away from my bees until someone did some pretty good studies to show it safe in honey and for the bees.

So it all


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

brent,

I'm not a scientist, so I could be wrong (I have been before







}
but

>For years it was used in the pressure treatment of wood, but it was so toxic that it got banned from school yards and public park playgrounds because of the risk of exposure to kids. ( in Toronto at least )

I was reading about pressure treated wood recently and what I got from it was that arsenic is what they got rid of and they still use copper

http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00127.asp 

according to that article they actually use a lot more

>It was also used in another form as a bottom paint for boats, especially in salt water, to keep of banrnacle etc, that is until the EPA got on the case and found it so toxic to marine life that it is now banned in the US.

lead is what they got rid of, copper is what they use now. I have a can of Pettit Trinidad (top notch bottom paint) in my hand, cuprouse oxide is the main ingredient

http://www.shipstore.com/SS/HTML/PET/PETTRINIDAD.html 

don't get me wrong, copper is toxic, but it's used a lot of places (not in my beehives







) 

Dave 

ps, I just realized you're from Canada, the rules may be different there

[ June 24, 2006, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


----------



## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

Copper teapot are not lined.
Copper Kettles (used for making apple butter etc.) are not lined. The only copper lining that I had seen are the modern copper clad pots.

Most of the new-age health braclets that you see advertized on TV are not much more that twisted copper wire that you wear.

And cooper in stills is the 'only approved' configuration - the problems came from people using old radiators which contaied lead as a cheap alternative.

If copper was not save we would have been dead long ago.

A piece of copper wire can even keep slugs out of a flower bed (the salt in slug slime causes the copper to set up electric shock in the slug).

There are lots of things to fear but why fear fear itself.

Food safe - what do you need a governerment stamp?


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>I was reading about pressure treated wood recently and what I got from it ........ they still use copper

Interesting. I just replaced some wood on the back deck of my house with pressure treated lumber. The bees seemed to really enjoy crawling around on the lumber. 

6--2x4's
3--2x8's
1--4x4

3 lbs. 12d nails

$115


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I'm amazed that the carpenter bees have no qualms about boring their nest into my deck  

Dave


----------



## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Dave 
Lots of things are sold that are not legal to use. We had a boat in the Florida Keys and the boat yard sold copper based paints but would not apply it. You had to put it on yourself.

And you are correct. A big part of the scare on the 
PT wood used for playground items was the arsenic, but copper got painted with the same brush at the same time. ( intended )


----------



## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

"And cooper in stills is the 'only approved' configuration - the problems came from people using old radiators which contaied lead as a cheap alternative."

You also have to be careful of the type of Solder you use. Commonly used household plumbing solder can release toxic chemicals into your "shine" due to the heat. From what I understand, Seal Foss solder (I'm sure I just slaughtered the spelling) is "approved" for use in stills. Its the easiest to use also, but more expensive.


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

some light reading for you "moonshine still afficianado's"









http://www.moonshine-still.com/

Dave


----------



## guatebee (Nov 15, 2004)

And there is the very common Copper Naphtanate treatment for beehive wood.


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

it's interesting how all these copper compounds seem to be toxic
Copper Naphtanate is used because it kills stuff trying to eat the wood
same with ACQ which it the new stuff they use on pressure treated lumber
cuprous oxide is used in bottom paint because it kills stuff
but elemental copper used in cookware and stills seem to be fine
seems like having copper in contact with hot food or vaporized alcohol intended for human consumption would be really bad if the elemental copper would hurt you
elemental copper is fairly unreactive with other stuff but is certainly not inert
don't we have a chemist around here who can shed a little light on this??

Dave

[ June 27, 2006, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Is it too late for me to retract my "Golden Rule of Beekeeping"?


----------



## Black Creek (May 19, 2006)

>For the mites, if it repels' them are you thinking some kind of electro magnetic hoody doody?

i've read that copper repels slugs in a garden because their damp bodies catch an electric jolt from contacting bare copper. they even sell a copper 'tape' that you put around the perimeter of your raised beds to keep the slimy rascals outta your greens. 

Any chance that the mites can catch a little zap from the copper too?


----------



## biene (Feb 24, 2013)

very interesting idea, and easy to try and to prove or to disprove.

as for the food safety of copper:

Here in Austria, Europe and the adjoing Alpine countries all the wonderful mountain cheese is still made in huge copper vessels. 
It's always been this way, and it's accepted by all the regulatory agencies, also the European Union ones. 
Without the copper, the cheese would not be the same with its famous taste...
The widespread and traditional use of it kind of points to its safety. 
And, by the way, cheese is almost a staple food around here.


----------



## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

Of course copper is safe in a hive. Can't imagine that it actually affects mites but just for kicks I'll place a stick of 1/2 inch copper pipe on the bottom board of a few hives, count mites on those hives and some control hives and will report back in June.


----------

