# got stung



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

JP,

Unfortunately every sting is an "allergic reaction" to one degree or another. The ones that we worry the most about are stings that cause a systemic response (anaphlaxis, difficulty breathing) or local tissue destruction. It is always a good idea to have an epipen around and you should be concerned if your response to bee stings gets progressively worse. Taking an antihistamine before working the bees may help. Bee suits also work. Many people on this web site can recommend good ones.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I'm certainly no doctor but I'd say it is pretty normal. 

Different stings seem to affect me in different ways. Sometimes I get stung and have barely any reaction. I got stung 2x last weekend once on the back and once on the bicep both thru the suit. The one on my back just caused a little welt for an hour or so. The one on my bicep swelled my upper arm up for about 6 hours and made my whole arm hurt to move. The red area spread to my whole upper arm. I put a hot pack on it that evening and the swelling and pain went away within 30min.

I don't know why it works that way but different stings seem to have different effects.

Dan


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## redhawknc1 (Jun 16, 2005)

I've been stung off and on each year. So far, 3 times this year, and still only once while actually working with my bees. The others were accidents or yellow jackets, etc. Normally I just have localized swelling to certain degrees, sometimes worse, sometimes less swelling. 
But last Friday, I was doing a little work in my beeyard with full suit and one of my girls managed to get up inside my rubber boots. This time I ended up in the emergency room with my lips 3 times the normal size, hives all over my body and the scariest part my tounge and throat swollen till I could barely breathe. All in minutes!
Well, 4 hours later and three shots, I came home from the ER with an Epipen and 2 prescriptions. Not counting the $100 copay at the ER and whatever other bills coming. Wonder why, now such a systemic reaction from a sting on the foot? Scary, just now fully getting over it. Still have blisters on my tongue and in my throat.


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## normj (Aug 9, 2005)

If I get stung on the hands or arms I just have a small whelt and pain for 2 or 3 hours. If I get stung on my fingers it don't hurt as long but for days after they are sore to touch. I got stung on my leg (yes I should have tucked my pantlegs in) and it left a place like a large red bruise. it seems that every sting is different.


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## Big Ed (Jul 1, 2005)

I was stung twice yesterday while doing some manipulations. I was wearing a jacket and jeans like usual. Well, the girls must not have liked what I was doing, because I got stung once through my jeans on my inner thigh, and another crawled up my leg and got my ankle. The thigh doesn't hurt at all, but my ankle is stiff and sure hurts today! Usually, the only ones that really bother me are on the face/neck or hands. Then I get alot of swelling. However, I have never had a systemic reaction or symptoms anywhere but the affected area. I guess there's just too many variables to be able to predict what a single sting will do.


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

The last time I was stung (my fault) I immediately applied a HOT washcloth and didn't have the pain like the last two. The 'drive you nuts' itching wasn't affected but the pain went away quicker.


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## BeeBear (Jan 20, 2004)

The next time I'm working the bees in the bathroom where a hot washcloth is handy, I'll remember that. I know that there are several things that people say you can do to alleviate the pain from a sting if you do them immediately, but I'm always in the middle of something when I get nailed and never willing to stop what I'm doing and tend to the sting.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>This am the area is still warm to the touch & is pinkish. The area is the inside of my forearm, there never was any swelling. Is this normal from a honeybee sting or is it a slight allergic reaction? 

It is well in the range of what, and at the bottom end of, what is normal. It does not sound at all allergic, but I would not consider it to be even if it swelled up a lot for several days. There's a reason they call it "venom".


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## IBEEME (Apr 21, 2005)

Aspera, how would I be able to tell if there is tissue destruction going on? Right now my right hand, wrist, and part of my forarm is very swollen and hot. Hand is almost 2X the size of the left hand. Cann't make a fist or close hand completely, all this from one sting. Recieved 2 on left leg that do not bother me at all. Girls were crawling up inside my pant leg. The only stings that cause my much trouble are those that I get on the back of my hand and each time I get stung on the hand the reaction appears worse. Not sure if I should get my hand checked out or not!
Randy


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Swelling is considered normal.

Hives and itching under arms and trouble breathing are not.

I actually never heard of tissue damage before the above post. I have heard of plenty of tissue damage with certain spider & snake bites. Bee venom is similar to snake venom so could be a possibility.

Many are not allergic to the venom but the bee protein also injected.

Very little is done at emergency wards *unless* you are in anaphylaxis except take your money. I would always ask for an epipen prescription as I always keep one on hand (3 year shelf life but would not be afraid to use if all that is available). I always keep animal epinephrine around and a syringe. you can buy the animal without a prescription. 

Tales from the farm and not for the timid!

I have saved a human life with the animal epinephrine (worker for the K.C. zoo) and an animal with the epipen (went into anaphylaxis after a CD & T injection I gave her).

The animal (6 weeks old) had ran wide open into two gates (could not breath). I caught the animal and threw her on the ground and held her down with my knee while I gave her the epipen. Ok within a minute.

The zoo worker went down in my bee yard and all that was available was a syring and animal epinephrine. He was unable to breathe and was nodding to use the syringe so we gave him 2 cc in the hip. Within seconds he was breathing normal again. 

I have watched a horse die from anaphylaxis. By the time the vet had hit the horse with a tranc gun and we got to his side he was gone. Animals run till they die from terror.

Similar to drowning I have been told by doctors.

We tried to run a piece of hose down his throat to give him CPR but too late.

My 90 year old beekeeping mentor did a trac on a fellow beekeeper with a pocket knife and a soda pop straw. The beekeeper remained calm and lived. He showed me the method but have never had to use the method but would if I thought the beekeeper could keep his witts about him as the procedure is simple but leaves a scar and needs stiches later at the doctors office. Very little bleeding involved.

I live in a remote area. help is at least a half hour away.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

<My 90 year old beekeeping mentor did a trac on a fellow beekeeper with a pocket knife and a soda pop straw.>

Just in case this sounds good to someone, we no longer do tracheotomies. Now it's a Chricothyroidotomy. Through the chricothyroid (ask your Doctor to show you, it's the Anterolateral aspect of cricoid cartilage). 

The other will get you sued.

Hawk


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## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

Bob, times change...you can no longer epinephrine over the counter, even for vet type use...it is now scrip only unless you know a vet.

BubbaBob


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Bee venom is hemorrhagic, differing from snake (viper) venom, which is a coagulant.

http://www.internethealthlibrary.com/Therapies/bee-venom-therapy.htm


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

In cases of extreme allergic reactions, tissue can loose its blood supply, causing it to die and slough away (think frost bite). This is not an immediate reaction, but rather delayed and often associated with secondary bacterial infections. Some snake venom toxins, (and bee venom to a lesser extent) contains collaginases that help to break down tisssues, allowing other toxic factors to penetrate more easily. Sammatro's introductory beekeeping book lists the exact constitiuents of bee venom. 
Imebee, what you describe sounds like the classic signs of inflammation (redness, heat, swelling, pain). If it is not improving rapidly (24-48 hours), then definitely get it checked out.
Don't attempt a tracheotomy. If you are that worried 1) get an epipen/dexamethasone and 2) get an endotracheal tube and instruction on how to use it. Animal/human epinephrine are usually the same stuff. The advantage of an epipen is that the dose will be appropriate for most people without a heart condition. Anaplaxis resulting from a single bee sting would be exceptionally rare, and as Bob mentioned, is characterized by the rapid appearence of hives and itching. It's my opinion that most peanut butter sandwiches are more likely to do this than your honeybees.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hawk,
Your a dead man if you are around me and have a reaction! You might change your mind right before things start turning dark or perhaps when you start turning blue! I guess I could place a knee on your chest till your life was gone as you refused treatment and would not want you to hurt yourself running into gates!

I am not recommending the procedure but rather carry the EpiPen but as a last form of saving a life would want the procedure tried on myself. My partner was a KC area policeman for 17 years and said the trac was shown to him as shown to me years ago and fairly simple to perform if one has a sharp knife and a steady hand. My partner has both!

The old beekeepers which performed the successful trac over fifty years ago new exactly what they were doing and death was going to happen without action. Breathing through the straw was hard my mentor said (like using a reed to breathe under water). Calmness was needed.


BubbaBob,
Easy to get through the mail from vet supply houses. Email direct if you want the supply house contact information.

Dick Allen,
For over forty years of beekeeping I have heard time and again that the actual bee venom is *similar* to cobra venom only in a very very small dose.

Agreed bee venom is hemorrhagic and viper venom is a coagulant (but only part of the story). I have sit through many talks on the subject. Not the same for sure but *similar* in many ways according to the experts I have heard speak.

Dictionary:
Similar:
" Bearing resemblance to something else;but not completely alike"

I am not one to stand around in an emergency. Anaphylaxis is serious business when you are thirty minutes from help. i am trained in CPR and even baby CPR. Hate to lose a loved one because my life was too busy to get trained. When you live next door to a fire station or a hospital might not be as valuable but invaluable in remote areas.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Bob, calm down! I simply listed a web site pointing out the differences between the two. No reason to get all upset, is there?  

Here, maybe this will help you.

Cobra snake venom cardiotoxins and bee venom melittin share a number of pharmacological properties in intact tissues including hemolysis, cytolysis, contractures of muscle, membrane depolarization and activation of tissue phospholipase C and, to a far lesser extent, an arachidonic acid-associated phospholipase A2. The toxins have also been demonstrated to open the Ca2+ release channel (ryanodine receptor) and alter the activity of the Ca(2+)+Mg(2+)-ATPase in isolated sarcoplasmic reticulum preparations derived from cardiac or skeletal muscle.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8342168&dopt=Abstract


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

I am not upset! I love these discussions! I have been in some very heated discussions at meetings!


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

bee venom is a complex mixture. excerpt taken from a review by PR deLima:

Hymenoptera venoms are complex mixtures containing simple organic molecules, proteins, peptides, and other bioactive elements. Several of these components have been isolated and characterized, and their primary structures determined by biochemical techniques. These compounds are responsible for many toxic or allergic reactions in different organisms, such as local pain, inflammation, itching, irritation, and moderate or severe allergic reactions. The most extensively characterized Hymenoptera venoms are bee venoms, mainly from the Apis genus and also from social wasps and ant species. However, there is little information about other Hymenoptera groups. The Apis venom presents high molecular weight molecules - enzymes with a molecular weight higher than 10.0 kDa - and peptides. The best studied enzymes are phospholipase A2, responsible for cleaving the membrane phospholipids, hyaluronidase, which degrades the matrix component hyaluronic acid into non-viscous segments and acid phosphatase acting on organic phosphates. The main peptide compounds of bee venom are lytic peptide melittin, apamin (neurotoxic), and mastocyte degranulating peptide (MCD)


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

Sorry. My immediately was actually about 20 minutes later when I was done. As usual it still hurt like the dickens. For me it hurts about 3 hours regardless where I'm stung (hand, foot or neck).


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## Murphy (Jun 7, 2005)

I do not use a suit when I work my bees due to feeling it makes me clumsy, and and more likely to get stung. I only have 4 hives so unlike commercial beekeeps I can do this. I do not have any reaction to being stung except when I am stung on my finger tips. Then it is extremely painful and I end up with bruise like pain for several days, otherwise I have had 5 + stings on my body and did'nt feel a thing except initial prick.

I allways carry an Epipen with me. Don't want to find out I am suddenly allergic a couple miles from help.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Bob, I tinker with snakes and bees. Whether old fashioned or new fangled ways, I hope you do something if I ever have an emergency in your presence. I, like you, believe "save a life, then look at the details later". I just wonder if you could be depended on if I were snake bitten on the buttock and all you had was a razorblade, and no vacuum kit.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

notaclue,
The last sting I got (about 30 minutes ago in honey processing area) hurt like the first I got as a child.

A hobby beekeeper should try to get as few stings as possible.

Without swelling the sting is not a big deal. Five minutes and the sting is gone.With swelling a big deal like in notaclues case.

At times the commercial beekeeper has to take stings to get the job done. Although hurts like notaclue says it is not a big deal to me as my eyes are not going to close or my arm swell up.
I can go into town and look normal even with stings to the face.

Many hobby beekeepers may think I am pulling your leg but what full immunity is all about.

If the sting hurt for hours or days I think many commercial beekeepers might leave the craft.

Full imunity to stings is real!

Mine now lasts all winter which amazes me. was not always so as I used to swell a bit in March if I had not been stung for a few months.

All my help try to avoid bee stings! My wife prides herself on only getting a few stings after all the years around a bee farm. Her arthritis is starting to really bother her these days. I have got zero arthritis.

The bottlers (part time) swell if stung (very rare but bees are drawn to bottles of honey and sting when mashed). My beekeeper helpers swell at times but not this far into the season usually.

I take double or triple the stings of my beekeeping helpers because I wear clothing which is comfortable and cool in hot weather (bug baffler) and many times no gloves.

My helpers wear full suits, gloves and duck tape all entrances. Sweat pours off them. Their deoderant fails at times. They are miserable in 100F. heat but take few stings.

Takes a while for those guys to get ready to approach the bees. I usually listen to the radio while they prepare to face the bees! Some want to ride to the next yard in full gear to save having to get dressed again.

I believe I am the exception rather than the rule for beekeepers but have met others like me which would rather take a few stings than put on all that gear.

I almost always wear a veil to protect eyes. I wear gloves when I am doing work that involves mashing a few bees with hands like removing supers or moving hives.


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## Gregory_Naff (Jun 28, 2005)

Iddee,

Hows the rest of that go..."Doc says ur gonna die"


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## Tatonka (Jul 6, 2005)

Having now been stung many times while trying to deal with these AHB's I have made some observations. 

The stings that I get through my gloves are quite painful but only for about a minute or two. 

The ones I've gotten on my face, ears back of hands etc.. on unprotected skin swell up, the hand stings through the glove have no swell at all, but, the initial pain is the same.

One other observation....I look like a lopsided dumbo with this swollen ear and I am sick of my AHB's...any body want a hive?

Eric


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Gregory, Even the old ones can be recycled with each generation.  

On the serious side, Bob is right about complete imunity, only I was lucky enough to be born with it. Never had to build it up. I have gotten uncountable stings for days in a row, and never more then a three inch wide, one inch high swell. Normally, 20 to 30 stings, I may be able to find 2 or 3 five minutes later.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Bob,
I don't think hawk meant don't do a tracheotomy, just do it his way. If the situation occurs I'm sure he'd talk you through it! Hawk, send me a private message for a web site with a picture if you have one.

I don't think the thread should end without mentioning liquid Benadryl. Antihystamines do help. I keep a bottle. My adult son got stung by a hornet a few years ago and went into shock. He had time to call the ambulance and run riot through the medecine cabinet. He found 2 lonely, dusty benadryl and took them. The ER doc said they may have saved his life.

Dickm


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dickm,
I believe you are right. when I get time I will look up his method. Hope and pray the situation never comes up!

Benadryl helps most people. I keep Benadryl in the honey processing area for employees.

Some beekeepers like benadryl and others a shot of 100 proof Yukon Jack to ease the pain!


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Doesn't have to be a PM. Here.

http://www.medstudents.com.br/proced/cricotir.htm

Only contraindication is if you can get an endotracheal tube in. And If done right, zero negative side effects. Cool, Huh?

Hawk


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hawk,
I will ask my Doctor (also close friend) to show me the newer procedure. Thanks!


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I have no training or experience but have been told about this many years ago. Still I think I would have done it this way. I take it to mean (in english) "go through the tissue just below the Adams apple." Sorry about the ladies in my ambulance and I'm a little sorry for the men are relying on me too.
But seriously. All this assumes that shock will go away if air is available. What is the mechanism that closes the throat. Swelling of the veins/arteries in the throat? Having done this how much time does it give you? Should I carry an airway instead of a scalpel?

Dickm


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

I almost always work my bees alone, and even tho I have only had minor reactions ( itching and minor swelling) I keep an Epipen auto injector and a cell phone with in easy reach. This spring when I was grumbling at the drug store about the cost of Epipen, the lady taking my money asked how much was it worth to breath? Last May our dog decided to catch some honeybees at the pond on our property and got stung. About 10 minutes she swelled up and looked like she had lumps poking thru her fur. And started to act quiet strange we rushed her to the vet where he gave her a couple of shots and she was back to normal in a few minutes. The dog was only about six months old at the time. Now when a bee gets to close she takes off for the house. 
One thing I do notice the first couple of stings I get in the spring react more than later in the season, seem my immune system builds up after a few stings. But if I were redhawknc1 I would make sure I didnt get stung at all.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dickm,
I am not sure any of us can answer your questions.
I suspect many MD's have only performed the procedure on a cadavor in med school. The procedure is for sure the last attempt to save a life.
I have never done the procedure but have talked to two beekeepers which have said they did. I believe my mentor but not sure about the other person.
I have got a friend which works in a ER. He says all anaphylaxis is not the same but he has seen plenty in his around thirty years in the ER. I will pass on some of his comments and perhaps others on the list working in similar situations such as ER or an emt might add their observations.

Normally the throat closes slowly *but not always*. Almost always other symptoms indicating anaphylaxis are present. One and sometimes more than one injections of epinephrine have solved the problem. he has seen other drugs also used.He has not seen a trac or the newer procedure done on his shift.
He says recovery from the closing throat is fast with epinephrine! He says once the shot is given and the symptoms are gone the person might be observed for awhile but most go home in an hour or two aand are not even kept overnight.

I had called my vet after my animal problem and he said the crisis was over and he did not need to make a farm call.

The worker for the Zoo did not even contact a doctor after his anaphylaxis.

I am no doctor and what I have said is what has been told to me for our discussion. As posted by the information by the MD. The procedure is life saving.

Can be done in seconds with the knowledge of cut placement and a large McDonalds milk shake straw if one has a sharp knife and a steady hand. The hard part is the person getting the procedure needs to remain calm and concentrate on breathing through the straw. Both the people that told me they had done the procedure said not to move the person until the danger of the throat closing was over.

All I know!


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

A tracheotomy would almost never be performed in an emergency room, as an endotracheal tube, a laryngoscope and an self-inflating rebreathing bag are always available. Personally, I would have no qualms about suing anyone who performed a tracheotomy when they had the means to intubate. A tracheotomy is a battlefield procedure and is best left on the battlefield.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

I agree! 

Aspera said:
"A tracheotomy is a battlefield procedure"

Again I agree! 

The one time I know for sure the procedure was done (my mentor that has been dead now almost forty years performed) in a remote bee yard on his best friend to save his life. The beekeeper lived another 20 years I have been told but did have a scar and two stitch marks. My mentor and the doctor that put the stiches in said they both believe the person would have died without the procedure.

Being sued does not bother me. Has been done before. They did not get a dime and had to pay their own lawyers fees in the last case. Being awarded the money and collecting the money are two different issues. Easy to rearrange assets over the several years it takes for a lawsuit to be over.

My partner (and best friend Glenn Davis owner of Bell Hill Honey) do many beekeeping operations together. Hives into California, Texas and other states. Pollination contracts together. many times we are alone in huge thousand acre orchards in remote places. Not a clue as to the location of the nearest hospital.

Glenn as I said before was a policeman for 17 years. Trained in EMT lifesaving. Trained in doing a trac if needed with say a head gunshot wound. 

Myself I would not give a second thought to Glenn doing a trac on me in a *life or death* situation. Might be his first trac but the alternative is to watch me die. I would rather die with my best friend trying to save my life as riding in a bee truck to parts unknown to find an ER . Or worse yet sitting in an ER waiting room filling out insurance papers! 

A couple inch trach scar would not even be worth talking about in the circles I travel in. I have got hundreds of stitches in my body. I have also been shot once and cut with a knife more than once.have had many broken bones and surgeries. I was left for dead once but crawled in my car and drove myself to the hospital. Most my injuries were related to my other than beekeeping job and my lifestyle years ago!


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Didn't really plan on getting this deep into it. I am an EMT and if I have to do this procedure, I will lose my Certification. It's only done after the patients airway is swelled shut, to closed to get air through. And too tightly closed to get an ET tube in.

In that case, the patient cannot breathe and will soon be dead. What's the down side? If your ambulance is less that five minutes away, or your hospital is less than five minutes away, don't do it. I am my ambulance and the hospital is 90 minutes away. Still I try to find out an ETA for the Chopper. Let the flight Nurse do it if they're close enough.

Don't cut the horizontal bands going around the Adam's apple. Your patient will need the voice box to speak.

Hawk


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Good advice! Thanks!
The procedure would be best discussed privately rather on a public list. 
As I said I only know of one verified case done by a beekeeper.
knowledge in the right hands is powerful. In the wrong hands is dangerous.
I speak from seeing anaphylaxis three times. One died and two were saved by me with epinephrine.
I am sure my friend Hawk has seen cases also. 
The air tube down the throught works if done fast enough.
Another time I had another animal twist a rope around its neck and went down. Lots of people were on my farm and the *kids* walking the animal had tied the animal to a tree and the animal had the rope twisted around his neck. They gave out a holler and my self and a medical doctor (visitor) came running I quickly cut a section of garden hose to run down his throat for CPR. The doctor was not quite sure what to do! We both took turns giving the animal CPR through the hose but he was gone. Most expensive animal on the place.
A vet if you is lucky thirty minutes away from me.
Living in a remote area if similar to battlefield conditions.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I understand that an Epipen needs a prescription. Do you have to show symptoms of an allergic reaction to get one? I am not allergic but wouldn't mind having one at the house in case someone visiting got stung and needed help. I also live 30min from a hospital and that would be too late. Can you just ask your doctor for one?

Thanks,

Dan


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Most MD's will prescribe it provided they think you understand why and how to use the epipen. They're mostly just worried about you jabbing someone with a pre-existing heart arrythmia.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dan,
I believe your family doctor would if you explain you keep bees. The last I bought cost $27 and was good for three years. The drawback is epinephrine needs to be stored at 59F. to 86F. Tenps effect shelf life.
My animal epinephrine says to store in the frig with other vet meds I use. I do take one or the other with me most trips to the bees but do not leave in the truck at the end of the day.

THE DIRECTIONS SHOW THE INJECTION AREA TO BE THE THIGH.
THEN MASSAGE THE INJECTION AREA FOR 10 SECONDS

I would not use unless the person is feeling his/her throat close. If slowly you might take the epipen and head for an ER.

Early signs of anaphylaxis (other than problems breathing) include flushing, itching under arms and hives.

Swelling is considered normal although many people that have been stung by an insect and have had swelling tell the world the are alergic to stings.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"In the United States alone, anaphylaxis accounts for approximately 500 deaths each year and significant morbidity. Hymenoptera envenomation is a major contributor to these statistics."

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1058.htm

That's 500 from ANY cause of anaphylaxis. SOME of those were from stings (Hymenoptera includes wasps, hornets, bees etc.) and SOME of those stings were bees (Apis) and SOME of those bees were honey bees (Apis Mellifera).

More than 40,000 people die every year from auto accidents.

The statistics are that you're much more likely to die in a wreck on the way to your beeyard than from bee stings.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

driving, the number one most dangerous thing we do. Rise gas price rise!


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

"The rest of the story"
Death from Bee stings has been greatly reduced because of the use of epinephrine. I wonder the number of cases of anaphylaxis treated in ER's and the person saved.

Also I believe those 500 died because in most cases epinephrine was not available.

Remote areas like Dan & I.

Anaphylaxis is common in commercial beekeeper circles. The last death was a couple years ago in a Florida beekeepers workforce. I know because I helped the beekeeper find insurance after his commercial insurance was cancelled. The beekeeper went down in a remote area without benefit of an epipen.

Children of commercial beekeepers have had anaphylaxis with only a sting. The reason has been traced to washing sting bee suits in the same washing machine as the family.

Those beekeepers without a full immunity can (and do) get serious reactions after years of keeping bees. I never heard of a beekeeper that gets as many stings as I do a year having a serious reaction.

Michael said:
"statistics are that you're much more likely to die in a wreck on the way to your beeyard than from bee stings"

I am still taking my EpiPen along!

Bob says:
"statistics are that you're more likely to die of anaphylaxis than on a commercial airliner" (excluding 911)


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I have no doubt that it is rare, BUT it does happen. A fire burning down your home is also unlikely but it doesn't mean we shouldn't keep a fire extingisher around just in case. 

I talked to a man the other day that was a beekeeper at one time. His son was stung and they almost lost him due to the allergic reaction. Fortunately, he was close to a hospital. The trauma for them was such that he quit bees.

I figure if the cost is only $27 every 3 years or so what does it hurt. I'd rather spend the $9 a year and never use it than to need it and not have it. For the cost..... why not?

Dan


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## Murphy (Jun 7, 2005)

I just got a prescription with refills for Epipen from the Doc, did on annual checkup. I do not seem to have a problems with allergies as I can pull poison oak and ivy with out a reaction, and do not even feel or see a reaction to bee stings (except on the ends of my fingers and it hurts like hell).
But, as the sole provider for my family I feel it is my obligation to not take chances with my life.

So like Rob ,I carry it with me when working the bees, not in the truck or anywhere else it takes you 20 mins. to reach.

This is just my pref. Which I believe is smart for me as I avoid wearing any beesuit, gloves, etc.

Murphy


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

EpiPen's website is pretty informative

http://www.epipen.com/causes_insects.aspx

Dave


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Murphy: 
I agree with you if you work bees alone you should have it, and probably a cell phone as well, you never know when the ticker might give you trouble, or other types of injuries the phone might be a lifesaver. Or when someone else will need it.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, after all it is venom, and I have heard of beekeepers that after many years of beekeeping have had a adverse reaction


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Brent,
Cell phones are a big help. problem is many times they don't work in remote areas. Hopefully things will improve. Years ago I bought out a beekeeper named Bruce Sunderland from Raytown, Missouri. Actually from his widow. Seems Bruce did not return home from his bee yard. His wife went looking and found Bruce dead laying against the front wheel of his truck in his full bee suit. Perhaps a cell phone would have got him help? A heart attack was what she said killed Bruce.

Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? 

My cell phone only works part of the time on my farm. I have tried all the services available.


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## The anonymous buzzing bee (Jul 26, 2005)

The lady who lives down the road from me, who I bought my hives from, had to give up because she became allergic over time. I think she kept bees for about 10 years with no problem at all, but now she can't even go near them. She was quite relieved when I took them out of her yard, where they had been sitting untouched for about five or six years, and put them on the other side of the village in my back garden. Cell phones don't work where I live either, so I haven't bothered buying one!


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Rob,
Where do you get an epipen for $27.

Thanks,

Dick Marron


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Osco about three years ago was the last I bought. I have bought several over the years. If my wife picked up the EpiPen (I think she did ) not sure of the price.
The last time i picked up the prescription the price I remember was $27. 
What are todays cost list?


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

Very glad to read all the bee sting comments. I was just going to ask about it. I received my fourth (since starting a hive in May) sting yesterday. The swelling continues down and around my arm from the impact point (inside arm inner bicep). Puffiness is almost to my wrist and mostly surrounds my arm at the bicep area. The itching continues constantly as the previous three bites have done. I now expect it to last about four days. I have applied cortisone cream and benydril (I think) cream with a slight reduction in the itch. With the extreme possibility of being stung at least once within any four day period should I stick it out with my bee expansion plans, I shudder to think about itching for the rest of my life.
My doctor couldn't give me much hope, but out there somewhere, I pray, is a medication that will stop the itch. The sting is nothing - I wasn't even sure I was being stung until I looked - but the itching (and, somewhat, the swelling are driving me mad. Do any of you know of what I might be looking for? Or can offer any info regarding the possibility of building up a reduction of sting symptoms? I've got three more days on this one. Fast answers will help.
Thanks,
Laurence Hope


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Dr. Hope, try Ice packs.

Hawk


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

The itching drives me crazy too as well as the swelling. My allergist, when I was asking about the venom therapy, said that was normal and that some folks will have more itching than others. Something about how your body gets rid of the venom and how much there is (my wife had to repeat this numerous times for me, dang meds!)in the local area. I take about three to four days and the local swelling completely disappears after about a week. The last one leaked that evening and for the next three days. I posted earlier about using a hot rag for the pain and for me it worked. I didn't tell the Doc about the persistent swelling and leaking yet. He told me to keep him appraised (-1 sp). Benadryl has also been ineffective. If you find anything please post it. If I find anything new I'll post and PM you Laurence. Take care! David


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Your MD may have been reluctant to prescribe it due to side effects, but I'm pretty sure that 1 small dose of a prednisone would clear that up. Try an over the counter cortisone cream (2% if you can find it). If there is any chance that you could be pregnant, this is a bad idea.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Different people definately react differently. I rarely swell except in certain areas but I don't ever remember itching from a sting. Strange how the human body works. One sting to another one person to another.

Dan


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Obviously y'all are into medications.







I've never taken anything for a sting except to put a poultice on the site.

My first sting of the season I sometimes get that much swelling. After that I seldom get any. Every sting will not be the same as the one before. Most get less intense. The best time to treat a sting is immeadiately. Immediately remove the stinger. Immediately put crushed plantain leaf on it. For me that usually means it stops hurting immediately and I can't find the sting an hour later.

http://weeds.cropsci.uiuc.edu/images/Broadleafplantain/images/broadleaf%20plantain.jpg

I would not assume your next sting will be like the last. It seldom if ever is.


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## BeeBear (Jan 20, 2004)

When you said "plantain" I thought you meant banana. Thanks for including the link to the picture. I have plenty of this in my yard.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

If you have a family member or friend who's a physician, they can set you up with a couple vials of adrenaline and a couple syringes. Keep them in foil (light degrades the adrenaline) in your fridge with clear directions for whomever has to use it. If you're cool-headed when you can't breathe, a legitimate consideration, you can just draw up .15 to .3 mls and inject sub-Q. You'll save a bundle on the peace of mind that Epi-Pen charges a premium for. The benefit of the EpiPen is that it's a no-brainer, but I fortunately inherited much of my father's machine-like nerves at crisis time







.

That brings up a thought... the nasal preparations of oxymetolazine hydrochloride .05% (Afrin et. al.) are basically adrenaline; I've used them to stop trauma nosebleeds and other persistent bleeding on the recommendation of said medic. (Ah, the secret delights of working in mental health  ) Anyone know how much adrenaline you'd get into your blood from snarfing up a bunch of nasal spray?


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

Thank you all for your answers and input.
I always look for the natural way to treat everything, and hate chemical meds and only use them if nothing else is available. I will look to see if there is a product made from the essence of plantain. I never heard of it before and the picture doesn't look familiar.
Laurence Hope


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## Borgnik (Jul 9, 2005)

Another field treatment you can use if you don't have plantain is to immediately select the leaves from three different succulent broad-leaved plants (plantain, clovers, dandelion, etc. just use what is immediately at hand) and crush them with your fingers and rub the mush on the sting site. Jucier plants are best and it must be done immediately. I've used it and it does seem to reduce the reactions. My Dad swore by it. If no other treatments are immediately available it is something that can be done quickly.


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## MidWest Beekeeper Mom (Aug 26, 2005)

I got to tell you what works for me. First try to scrape off the stinger. If you're in the field, fully suited, that's hard to do. Next asap, apply a cotton ball soaked in Benadryl GEL. It is sold at most Walgreen's and Target stores (3 bucks). It has a aqua blue cap. Look for it next to the anti-itch stuff at the stores. I really swear by this. I keep re-saturating the cotton ball every 2-3 minutes for a total of 15 minutes. I have no problem afterwards, no swelling, no pain. On another issue:

That fella that gets swollen on his arms should be checked by his doc. The swelling is caused by a histamine reaction, your body sends out fluid to the area that has been traumatized. The real issue is if you get stung near you nose or mouth, because if you get stung next to your airway, it can become congested from the histamine reaction and your breathing can become labored or restricted. The best thing to do in the case of that type of allergic reaction is speak to your doctor before resuming beekeeping activities. Let's put it to you like this, if you think something was wrong about your reaction to a bee sting, you're probably right. And put simply, what paramedic do you know who will come into your beeyard with your hives strewn open, to rescue you while you lay on the ground in respiratory distress???


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

if you think something was wrong about your reaction to a bee sting, you're probably right.

Not trying to pick an argument but I disagree. That is why you have so many people walking around saying that they are allergic to bee stings... They all think "something is wrong about their reaction to a bee sting". Two people at my work the other day separately said that they can't get near bees. They both claimed to be severely allergic. When I asked them both where their Epipen was neither knew what I was talking about. They had some swelling and that was it. One went to a doctor but said the doc had said nothing about having to carry anything. Maybe they had a bigger than average reaction but not to the point that there was a problem.

Without a doubt there are severely allergic people. However, I'd say most people overreact. 

Dan


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## redhawknc1 (Jun 16, 2005)

As I had mentioned early in this thread. I had a severe systemic reaction about 9 days ago from a sting on the ankle. Ended up with an emergency room visit. The liquid benadryl I took right after the sting may have waylayed the reaction. But I had closed throat, swollen tongue, almost impossible to breathe, all the classic symptoms, all in minutes. I am 48 years old and this has never happened before. I now have an Epipen. And the shelves in the house are replenished with Benadryl liquid, tablets, etc. I always wear a full Bee Suit and gloves. What might I expect with the next sting? I am hesitant to work my bees! What is your experiences?


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I would expect the next sting reaction to be similar to or worse than the one you just experienced. Get a referral to an allergist and inquire about hyposensitization vaccines. Your life is at risk.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Aspera's right Red. You need real medical advice. I'm good at emergency Medicine but you need an allergist.

Hawk


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## redhawknc1 (Jun 16, 2005)

The previous stings only had the normal local swelling and itching. Why all of a sudden this systemic reaction. I need to work my bees. When I got stung the last time, I was requeening a nuc. I haven't even seen whether she is out and doing ok. And probably all feeders are empty. Extra clothes under my beemaster suit? Epipen and car phone? Make sure somebody is home when I work them? Really want to work them, hate to let this last event change everything. I just have 4 hives, but I know it could take only one bee. What to do?


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Red, the first thing to do is get tested. When my son reacted like that in his third year of beekeeping, and over a hundred prior stings, we had him tested. Something that hasn't been brought up here is, There are two different reactions. One a system reaction, where a sting anywhere will react, and two, a blood reaction, where stings will not bother you until one hits you on a blood vessel. His is the two. He has been stung a few times since, with no reaction, and may never get hit on a blood vein again, or the next one may be the big one. He always keeps an epipen and benedryl tablets close by, but hasn't used one yet. No matter, he will continue to keep one as long as he lives, just in case.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Another home remade I have heard of is onion, just rub some on the sting and its suppose to take the sting out, nice image Michael I have a lot of plantain growing around next time I get stung Ill try it. Seems like the more stings I get the less reaction I have the body will take care of itself.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I will look to see if there is a product made from the essence of plantain. I never heard of it before and the picture doesn't look familiar.

I've never seen a yard that didn't have plantain growing in it. The leaves are shiny and dark green. If they haven't gone to seed (or you mow often) it won't have the seed stalk in the center. It usually grows where the soil is hard packed from people walking on it.


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

redhawknc1 !!!

And anyone with a SEVERE reaction.

SEE AN ALLERGIST AND FIND OUT WHAT YOUR OPTIONS ARE!
David


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

Thanks for all answers and ideas re stings and adverse reaction.
I did get some Benadryl gel. It worked the best of any otc product yet.
I will get tested and a Rx for Epipen.
I will get the stinger out asap without worrying how. I read a great dissertation that said each second counts more than the possibliity of "pumping" in additional venom by grabbing the stinger sac.
I will continue to look for plaintain in my area. I was out for a while this A.M. with a keeper who knew of it, but we didn't see any all morning.
I am at 3 & 1/2 days since my last sting and the swelling and itching is almost gone. I might beat my 4 day symtomatic past.
I will persevere because I want to be successful with beekeeping.
Thanks again.


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