# Bottling



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

How is everyone bottling. Currently I bleach and then scald with hot citric acid water. This is laborious and I'm looking for new ways. I have extremely hard water so not rinsing or using one-step is out of the question. Does anyone use sulfites for bottles?


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## Propolis30 (Aug 25, 2005)

I normally just bleach, scrub with a bottle brush, and then rinse with hot tap water or just put them in the dishwasher. If you leave the dishwasher open with the racks out it makes for a great drying rack weather you do them by hand or not.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

I have used sulfites with no problems; a pump-jet type deal on top of a bottle tree. Mostly though I use Star San and it is much preferred IMO. Since it's reuseable for some time and no rinsing is required (you can drink it), I make 5 gallons and keep in a snap-lid bucket. It goes in my airlocks, a spray bottle for countertops, cutting boards, hivetop feeders, the sink, etc. From memory I don't think hardness interferes with acid sanitizers like Star-San, but you'd want to check w/ Five-star chemicals. I'm not a fan of One Step either, though it's pretty effective if the directions are followed.

If mineral deposits are a concern use bottled water or even distilled, or mix distilled with your tap proportionate to how much you want to reduce your hardness.

Is the citric acid to reduce hardness residue? Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) solution is so effective at the correct dilution I can't imagine much increased benefit from a sanitizing standpoint, though rinsing bleach is an absolute must. Hot rinsing is more effective then cool/cold.

For CLEAN bottles (no deposits whatsoever), a dishwasher set on heat-sanitize can sanitize bottles effectively, though it's the heat doing it. A dishwasher will not get solution inside the bottles.

For the newer sanitizers out there, there are two parts to sanitizing effectively. 

1) cleanliness (no deposits or gunk), without which you cannot 

2) sanitize. The rule is "you can't sanitize dirt". The nastiest chemical in the world can leave bugs in beerstone, crusties, physical soiling so keep it clean! That's another thing bleach is great at: removing deposits.


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## Propolis30 (Aug 25, 2005)

Ours is a new dishwasher and actually has a bottle washing area which is great for washing our baby bottles. But I agree....I woudld not trust it to clean stuck on debree from the inside of the bottle. I do trust it enough to wash the bleach solution out of the bottle however.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Unfortunately I don't have a dishwasher and even unboiled tap water leaves tastable residue (thus the boiling citric acid rinse). I have no dirt in my bottles, just lots of MgCO3 and sulfides...yuck. I brew/ferment exclusively with distilled water or certain spring waters. Usually I prefer steam distilled dionized H20. Its just the bottles that give me headaches (actually backaches).

[ March 22, 2006, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Aspera ]


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Star-San is a new one on me. Is it a no rinse compound (that would be ideal)? What's in it?

[ March 22, 2006, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Aspera ]


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## MeadMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Aspera, I would recommend using only spring water for your mead making and their are two reasons for it.
1.Distilled water conatins no trace minierals which is good for the yeast.
2. Distilled water is devoid of any oxygen. So you will need to doulble your atempts at indtroducing oxygen to your must.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Meadman,

If I felt the need to add trace minerals, then I could do it myself. I work in a nutrition lab that studies trace minerals. In general, honey and/or dead yeast product provide everything needed for a vigorous fermentation, except possible for a little zinc. Try it sometime. Even table sugar in ddh2o with a gram or to of yeast extract will ferment quite well. dd Water and honey are all that's needed. My distilled water can dissolve oxygen just fine, although mine doesn't because it is boiled prior to use, and I go to great lengths NOT to aerate it. Dry yeast requires no aeration becaause it is grown aerobically. For liquid culture, I make an aerated starter. Besides, if your clean enough, bacteria are not a problem and you really don't need to aerate.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Star San is a food-grade acid sanitizer; phosphoric acid and dodecylbenzene sulfonic acid (spelling from memory, guaranteed not accurate







). Many medium and small pro breweries and some wineries use it. No-rinse, very effective w/ one minute contact time, foaming formula for getting into cracks and whatnot. It's a little more popular with brewers 'cuz the malt easily buffers the acidity of the sanitizer, but I just drain and use equipment no prob. Even a sloppy drain and fill job in a five-gallon carboy, compared to a non-treated water-filled carboy, tested the same on my calibrated pH meter.

The concentrate is diluted one ounce to five gallons working solution. No affiliation, just a fan. I've tried doctoring drinks with varying levels of working solution and haven't noticed a taste until seriously high diluent was added.

Environmentally friendly BTW too, markedly different from bleach and significantly easier on clothes and carpets. If you can't tell, I love the stuff for ease of use and effectiveness. Any brewing shop will carry it, or contact Five Star Chemicals in Denver or online. There's a non-foaming version (for pumping and whatnot) called Saniclean, but it requires like three minutes contact time.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Sounds like good stuff. I'll definitely give the stuff a try for bottle sanitizing. Environmental issues aside, the bleach is good but I'm sure its none too good for any living thing, microbe or otherwise.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

It is good, but as you say... when I was helping beginners get started all the time, I'd recommend bleach every time. Cheap. Highly effective. Readily available. Easy.


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

I use the dishwasher for all my bottles. Star San is used for equipment but I still like to rinse, mostly because I am inpatient. Note on the star san, as long as the solution stays clear it is still good to use.


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## mattoleriver (Sep 20, 2003)

> Since it's reuseable for some time and no rinsing is required (you can drink it), I make 5 gallons and keep in a snap-lid bucket.


Ben,
do you have any idea how long the stored Star San will retain it's effectiveness and how to tell when it is no longer effective?
Thanks
George


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

Effective as long as it is clear.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

I've heard varying reports on that. Cloudy requires replacement, but clarity is not necessarily a promise of efficacy, nor is pH unfortunately. I tend to use it for one to three months unless I've used it very heavily (>twice a week for big sessions). Since I typically make 10 gallon batches, the heartbreak of a contamination, for me, is worth the modest investment of occasional fresh solution for peace of mind.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Good info. I'm placing an order this month and I'm pretty pumped to try Star San on my bottles. I'm still going to use bleach for post fermentation carboys and ammonia for a label remover.


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## MeadMan (Feb 28, 2005)

Aspera,
I guess you have never heard of Burton-on-Trent?
Of course distilled water can absorb oxygen, but it doesn't have any in it to begin with.
Honey and water is a poor environment for yeast to work in, it lacks many nutirents the yeast needs to work. Sure sugar and water or honey and water will ferment. But off tastes from stressed yeast is something I personally don't want in my meads. Nor do I want 3 month fermentations.

Yeast need oxygen to reproduce no matter whether they are dry or liquid. To have a clean fermentation you need a high pitching volume of yeast, especially with mead, because of the poor environment. After reproduction is over, you want a fermentation devoid of oxygen. The yeast use all of it up to reproduce.
But of course I don't work in a nutritoin lab, and the 200 gallons of mead I have made doesn't add up to much in practical knowledge. nor does the 100 or so gallons of beer I have made. If there was an advantage to using distilled water over my city water I would defentily be using distilled water, instead.
When you brew beer, immediatley after your wort has chilled, you must introduce oxygen to the wort for a healthy fermentation, because boiling removes the oxygen, the yeast need it for reproduction before fermentation takes place.
I always make a starter for my meads dry or liquid yeast. And I always areate my must. Like I said, off tastes from stressed yeast is not something I enjoy.
But to each his own.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

I think we're mostly on the same page here with some technical differences. Burton-on-Trent has largely sulfate hardness, different from the magnesium carbonate hardness Aspera reports. 

And for nutrients and oxygen, it's true that dry yeast has much of what it needs stored on board including oxygen, and the higher cell counts with dry can usually make up a lot of the difference. Where oxygen, and to some extent nutrients, become more important is in high-gravity or other stressful environments. As successive generations of daughter cells are budded, the declining (communal) O2 levels cause progressively weaker cell walls as their ability to produce sterols is inhibited. For most musts, the oxygen and nutrients in the dry yeasts' "backpacks" is adequate for a full fermentation. For other musts, where the yeast have to reproduce more generations or use more reserves to get up to speed and working, providing for these needs additionally will be beneficial. If you're seeing poor attenuation (incomplete fermentation of sugars up to the alcohol tolerance of the strain), sluggish starts, or slow, limping ferments, consider being more proactive on yeast health.

In liquid, active cultures, you're producing successive generations before they even meet their must and they need us to fill their backpacks for the trip. It's more complicated than that on a technical, optimal level but for practical purposes this facile overview will cover most situations.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Meadman, to each there own. I would not dream of putting Burton salts in mead of any sort. Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried using softer waters? If not, it is a worthwhile experiment. I have tried using many different water additives and nutrients and satisfied myself that yeast derived products, organic acids, and tannins to give me the product I like best. I still own many salts but rarely use them, excepting for calcium chloride. Even for pale ales I've found that I prefer oak astringency to gypsum or epsum and can use calcium chloride to adjust pH's. Try it sometime, its worth the wait (although I freely admit that my high alcohol meads cause wicked hangovers if aged under 2 years).

[ March 28, 2006, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Aspera ]


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