# Housel positioning



## monrovi (Jan 22, 2012)

I'm just curious does anybody set there hives up withe the housel positioning. I have just read about it recently and didn't know if it was one more thing to pay attention to. I'm sure my frames in my hives are all turned all sorts of direction.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I do it because it is said to be the natural way of bees. With 100 variables it is impossible to say that one variable makes a difference. If it is one variable removed it is one less than can sway the results of the remaining variables.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I may play with a couple of hives now that most of my brood boxes will have narrow frames, and the possibility of establishing a center frame. Housel positioning is not " one more thing to pay attention to"...


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

IMO, Housel positioning is a dreamed up management technique. You can install your foundation any way you wish, that's up to you. There is no benefit one way or the other.

Now, about the theory...

It has been reported, that honeybees in a natural cavity will build their combs starting with one central comb. This central comb is special, and different than the other combs in the cavity. I have yet to see a central comb presented here or anywhere else. Anyone got a photo they can share?

The Housel theorists claim that combs on each side of the central comb must be positioned correctly. If you look through a sheet of foundation, you will see a Y at the bottom of each cell base. The Ys will be facing up or down. Turn the foundation 180 degrees, and the Ys flip the other way...from up to down, or down to up. The theory says the Ys must face the central comb correctly...Ys facing down. So if you look through the foundation, and see downward Ys, place the frame in that way. If they Ys face up, turn the frame 180 degrees and place next to the central comb that way.

So, just what are the Ys and what do they have with proper broodnest setup?

The Ys are actually where 3 cell bases join...on the opposite side of the foundation. Looking through one side of the foundation, the Ys will face one way, looking through the other side, the Ys will face opposite. So that means Ys face up on one side and down on the other. So?

According to Lusby, I was present at Leominster when Lusby made this claim...the Ys form a shelf...facing up or down. Look and you will see it's true....a shelf is formed in newly drawn foundation. But, after a round or two of brood rearing, the shelf disappeares and the bottom of the cell is evenly concave. No shelves. Anyone who has done much grafting from new and old brood comb will agree I am sure.

So, what's up with shelves? Lusby claims that a queen will lay her eggs upon the shelves. If the shelves are facing up, things are as they should be. The egg will be upright facing and larva will proceed to pupate and a worker bee will emerge. But, beware of downward facing shelves in the bottom of brood cells. The egg will be downward facing, and supercedure will result. Really! Really?

I have one question for Housel Position theorists. If the shelves at the bottom of brood cells face down on one side of the comb, do they not face up on the other. And isn't the theory that downward facing shelves will result in supercedure? So, does that mean all supercedure happens on one side of the comb...the side with down facing shelves?


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I do it because it is said to be the natural way of bees.


By whom?


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BeeCurious said:


> and the possibility of establishing a center frame.


Do bees only construct such a comb when the combs are "narrow"?

Do post a picture when you have an established central comb. I would be interested to see one.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I kept bees very successfully for over 35 years before hearing about it. I then tried it. Paying attention to it increased my frame assembly and bee management time by 100%+ and immediately proved impossible to maintain as one removes, mixes and installs frames for hive management such as making divides, queen rearing and honey extracting. I added it to my list of bunk "discoveries" and recommendations made by those who promote their agenda that includes it.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I've also wondered whether there is anything to the Housel positioning theory or not. I think I'll try a couple of things this spring and see what happens just to satisfy my curiosity.

First, I think I'll take a couple of splits and set up the combs in the "correct" Housel positioning configuration. Then as the the colony expands I'll remove frames from each side and add foundationless frames. It will be interesting to see if they maintain the same "Y" positioning as they build new comb.

Second, I'm going to put a couple of captured swarms into boxes with just one drawn frame in the center and foundationless frames on either side. Other than possibly straightening out wavy comb I'm going to let them do what they please and see if there is any consistent "Y" pattern. 

Not very scientific I know, but it might tell me what I need to know.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

There are still a few articles floating around the net promoting Housel positioning, and still a small number of people practising it. As per Odfrank, attempting to practise it makes proper broodnest management virtually impossible, or at the least, way more time consuming and stressful than it should be.

Other than that, the idea has been debunked. If a wild hive or natural combed hive is analyzed properly, it can be seen the bees have no interest in Housel postioning. Something I noticed staraight away when I heard of Housel positioning and went to the bees to check it out.

You can "see" Housel positioning if you look at a natural comb hive, but it's a function of the human mind and the way we analyze patterns. Please see this linked investigation.

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/housel-positioning/


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

monrovi said:


> I'm just curious does anybody set there hives up withe the housel positioning.





Acebird said:


> I do it because it is said to be the natural way of bees.


Really Ace? On June 4th of this year (2012) you didn't know how "Housel" was spelled and now you are claiming to be one of the practicants?


----------



## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

I have not yet formed an opinion as to whether it is real or bs. However, I do it anyway as the theory makes at least some sense. It takes no more time, really, if you mark the frames. I use a symbol on top of my frames to remind me which way to orient that particular frame from the center line. It's very quick. -js


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

dixiebooks said:


> It takes no more time, really, if you mark the frames.


Yes marking is the recommeneded method and will speed things considerably, if you are concerned with nothing else than Housel positioning.

But when I'm working a hive, I may reverse a frame, due to brood placement on that frame and a need to stimulate the hive. Or I may postion frames in a particular orientation because in a small hive the brood is all at the back away from the entrance and I'll turn alternate ones around to open the cluster in spring. These are just a few commonplace manipulations that can be rendered un doable if you adhere to Housel postioniong. My bees benefit much more, if I forget Housel positioning and do what the bees need, or at least, will achieve what I want from them.

But other than restricting proper brood management, Housel positioning will do no actual harm, so for those who manage their bees less intensively than I do, it won't hurt. Which is why some still practise it. It's the I'll do it "just incase" idea. But there is no study showing any benefit from it, and there never will be. No wild or naturally built hive I've looked at, has it.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

dixiebooks said:


> I have not yet formed an opinion as to whether it is real or bs. However, I do it anyway as the theory makes at least some sense.


Makes sense in what way?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

This gem is from the "Housel" thread that _BeeCurious _linked to in post #10 above.



Acebird said:


> That's what is wonderful about beekeeping. One expert will debunk another.
> When I come up with my _crazy ideas I might just be another expert 20 years down the road_. Ha, ha, ha, ha


And it only been 6 months since Ace wrote that .... :lpf:


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> If a wild hive or natural combed hive is analyzed properly, it can be seen the bees have no interest in Housel postioning. Something I noticed staraight away when I heard of Housel positioning and went to the bees to check it out.


Well...of course not. Since you're on the _wrong _side of the equator...all the bee stuff works backwards. Which also might explain why your bees seem to be small cell challenged.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> IMO, Housel positioning is a dreamed up management technique.


Seems like there's a lot of that going around.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

beemandan said:


> Since you're on the _wrong _side of the equator...all the bee stuff works backwards.


 Ah, at last I can see where all the problems are coming from LOL, housel position schmuosel position. What's needed over here is to run the hives upside down.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> What's needed over here is to run the hives upside down.


I'm thinkin'.....let us know how it works out lol


----------



## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> Makes sense in what way?


In the sense that according to SOME people, the phenomenon has been observed at least SOME of the time in feral or natural-comb colonies. I know it has not been scientifically proven and the 'evidence' seems rather scanty to some, but others think different. In either case, I think all agree that it does not hurt. One definite benefit, in my own experience, is that it helps remind me how the frame was positioned before I pulled it out of the hive. I sometimes forget, and seeing that arrow on top reminds me where and how the bees expect it to be put back. -js


----------



## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

I hope nobody tells my bees about this.For my starter strips I cut foundation vertically between the wires then rotate that 90 degrees to install.If my bees learn about Housel they may refuse to build comb.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

gone2seed said:


> I hope nobody tells my bees about this.For my starter strips I cut foundation vertically between the wires then rotate that 90 degrees to install.If my bees learn about Housel they may refuse to build comb.


OMG! Your Housel shelves are sideways! It's well known by some that sideways Ys make the bees fly backwards. Then they'll take honey to the field and spit it into flowers.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> OMG! Your Housel shelves are sideways! It's well known by some that sideways Ys make the bees fly backwards. Then they'll take honey to the field and spit it into flowers.


:lpf:


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

*Call me silly....*

I reject the Housel positioning assertions. 

As I read about the theory and looked at the Y pointing up and down, it dawned on me that the top row of cells on one side of the comb must be higher than the top row on the other (that is what causes the Y at the base of the cells to point up one one side and down on the other). This architectual design provides a maximum number of cells on both sides of the comb, plus produces optimal comb strength with a minimum of wax production. It might be that simple. Call me silly. I think it is that simple. Perhaps in the fullness of time we will know more. JMO


----------



## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

*Re: Call me silly....*

For what it's worth, I've been using foundationless, with only ice cream sticks as guides. 

In the Nuc boxes the majority of outside frames get drawn with the "Y" to the outside of the box.

I've noticed with the middle frames, the bees usually start two or three tear drop shaped combs at the same time. One tear drop may have the "Y" one way and the other(s) the other way. When these combs merge the the "Y" is not centred on the cells behind.

Matthew Davey


----------



## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> :lpf:OMG! Your Housel shelves are sideways! It's well known by some that sideways Ys make the bees fly backwards. Then they'll take honey to the field and spit it into flowers.


This is awful.I will use oldtimers idea and turn my hives upside down tomorrow morning.I hope I'm not too late.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>IMO, Housel positioning is a dreamed up management technique.
Seems like there's a lot of that going around.

How would all the new gurus sell themselves without proposing fantastic new ideas?


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

gone2seed said:


> This is awful.I will use oldtimers idea and turn my hives upside down tomorrow morning.I hope I'm not too late.


Better late than never. Good luck.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

.....and on an only slightly more serious note (and almost completely off the subject). I remember reading years ago that if you were able to turn your hives 180 degrees upside down on a weekly basis during swarming season that your bees would never be able to swarm as they could never successfully raise a replacement queen. A silly little experiment I always wanted to try.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Wow! another really hot topic. I didn't think anyone was so uptight about Housel positioning even if you spell it wrong. I have not done enough natural comb to know what my bees prefer but at least Housel thinks they prefer it and according to him Michael it is natural so I will do it. If you come up with a Palmer positioning I might not do it. I hope that doesn't upset you.

Ps Rader, I spell everything wrong. Somehow everybody else figures out what I mean. Oh well ....


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Ps Rader, I spell everything wrong. Somehow everybody else figures out what I mean. Oh well ....


You seem to be confused .... again. I didn't say anything about your [mis]spelling. However, in post #10 *BeeCurious *did bring up that subject.

:lpf:


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> If you come up with a Palmer positioning I might not do it. I hope that doesn't upset you.


 Don't worry ace, it won't upset me. You're already rectocraniallyinserted.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i don't think there is any way to get that 'special' center comb that has the 'y' upside down on both sides. if you draw it out you'll see what i mean.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

it makes sense though, the the upside down 'y' side would face center, because it was drawn first. when the side facing outward is added, it would be a half row lower.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Somehow everybody else figures out what I mean.


It seems that _Michael Palmer _has certainly figured you out, Ace.

 :lookout:


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i've got a piece of pretty dark used natural comb, and you can still see the 'ribs' pretty good if you hold a flashlight behind it.


----------



## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Michael Palmer said:


> Don't worry ace, it won't upset me. You're already rectocraniallyinserted.


That's funny,I would imagine that would give a person a bad outlook on life. I think the medical term for that is optical rectosis,inch: you can look it up.


----------



## monrovi (Jan 22, 2012)

It seems there is some strong opinions on this subject


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

if anyone can show me how to get the 'y' upside down on both sides i'll buy them a bottle of mead!


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Easy. Drink the bottle of mead, and you can see them y's, right where you want them.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_Squarepeg_, I admire your efforts at trying to continue a discussion of _upside down Y's_, but I think Ace's _chickens have come home to roost. _

For anyone wondering what that is in reference to, here is a comment Ace directed to me a few days ago.


Acebird said:


> Is that any clearer for your pee brain?


:ws:


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

found some pictures posted by barry and mike bush that show how you can get sideways y's, if the bees start the cells with the flat side up. 

but they're actually not inverted on both sides.

i win the mead, cheers oldtimer!


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

rader, i remember that one.....


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> it would be a half row lower.


Where does that half row go? Do the bees make cells 1/2 size or 1 1/2 size to start out? If I were to guess I would say 1/2 size because I don't recall seeing large cells at the top of each frame.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I’ve got a great idea!
I’ve observed that small hive beetles are strongly attracted to my hives. So what I propose is that beekeepers the world over point their hives in my direction. We’ll call it Dan’s Universal Homing….DUH for short.
Think of it! No more beetle traps! No more roach bait! No more beetles!
For a small fee I will send you coordinates for one of my specially attractive yards…and you can plug the numbers in to any GPS unit to determine the proper way to face your hives.

As it will take many years for the migration to be complete, it will be challenging for the academic community to create studies to confirm its efficacy.

I’ll be on the international beekeeping speaker’s circuit.
Look out Randy Oliver….here I come!
I already have the title to a book in mind. Beetless Beekeeping for the Naïve


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Hey Dan, how is that mead?

What are you planning to do with all those beetles that arrive? Beetle juice?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>As I read about the theory and looked at the Y pointing up and down, it dawned on me that the top row of cells on one side of the comb must be higher than the top row on the other (that is what causes the Y at the base of the cells to point up one one side and down on the other). 

Exactly.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-m...m_ciu_pdp_images_0?ie=UTF8&index=0&isremote=0

If you look at the "anterior" and "posterior" views in the above illustration from Huber you can see that exact thing. The anterior first row is a half cell width more in height.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Barry said:


> Hey Dan, how is that mead?


The best I’ve ever made, I think. Alas….it is still mead.



Barry said:


> What are you planning to do with all those beetles that arrive?


I have a pretty simple idea there too. Over time, as beetles become scarce everywhere else, I’ll get them designated as an endangered species. I’ll create a zone and call it the Beetle Homeland. I’ll apply for (and surely get) federal funds to monitor and ‘properly’ maintain the zone.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

beemandan said:


> For a small fee I will send you coordinates for one of my specially attractive yards…and you can plug the numbers in to any GPS unit to determine the proper way to face your hives.


You need to think *bigger *than this. How about working with a GPS manufacturer and licensing to them the rights for a customized GPS that automatically points to the proper yard. Instead of a _TomTom_, it could be called a _DanDan_.  :lookout:It will be another _must-have_ tool that can be included in those _Beginning Beekeeper Packages_, at an excellent margin.

:banana:


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

http://www.beesource.com/imgs/barry/oddcellbase.jpg

This is the only piece of odd comb I've ever had from cut-outs. I'm calling it the Birkey positioning.


----------



## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

*Y oh y *has this carried on for 3 pages


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You need to think *bigger *than this.


Maybe an appropriately priced app for iphones and androids? Call it DanDUH?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Barry said:


> I'm calling it the Birkey positioning.


No doubt in the future, this thread will be a reference for the _Acebird Position_.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Housle Position/HouslePosition002_zps7ef6cb7d.jpg
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Housle Position/HouslePosition001_zpsb394e288.jpg

I just took these pics and it appears to me that the bees transitioned the cells on the long side. The cells on one side are straight and on the opposite side they are angled upward (more than 13 degrees) for the first three rows. It doesn't appear to me that the top row of cells are oversized.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> The cells on one side are straight and on the opposite side they are angled upward (more than 13 degrees)


I believe I'd check the level on that hive.....


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> I believe I'd check the level on that hive.....


You believe the level of the hive would affect the first three rows and not the rest of the comb?


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

beemandan said:


> I believe I'd check the level on that hive.....


Or maybe some cross wires?


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You believe the level of the hive would affect the first three rows and not the rest of the comb?


Ace...I don't believe much that you say about beekeeping....don't get mad...you told me not to.
Do you believe that Housel positioning caused only the first three rows and not the rest of the comb? 
A number of possibilities, in my inexpert opinion. I'd start with level....or if everything else seemed good, I wouldn't really care.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

beemandan said:


> I have a pretty simple idea there too. Over time, as beetles become scarce everywhere else, I’ll get them designated as an endangered species. I’ll create a zone and call it the Beetle Homeland. I’ll apply for (and surely get) federal funds to monitor and ‘properly’ maintain the zone.


Sounds like a plan. Everything works if you let it.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Or maybe some cross wires?


Cross wires? Would do what?


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Everything works if you let it.


lol


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Cross wires? Would do what?


Michael Palmer may be onto something here. If your wired foundation is 'hooked' at the top...and the bends aren't precisely ninety degrees....and they rarely are.... the top of the foundation may not have been perfectly vertical. It took the bees a few rows to sort it out. Crosswires might have forced it to be closer.
As I said before...if its only the top three rows.....who cares?


----------



## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Holy crap this is a funny thread! I think it should be moved to the Humor section for a couple of pages. By the looks of the post dates and times it seems I know what you guys got for Christmas morning (a bit stronger than mead I suspect).


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beemandan said:


> It took the bees a few rows to sort it out.


On one side of the frame but not the other. The wires are common to both sides.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> On one side of the frame but not the other. The wires are common to both sides.


You're making my puzzler sore (from the Grinch). Your description sounded to me like both sides were off. One perpendicular to vertical (it shouldn't be) and the other tilted up (too much). 
I'm done with it Ace. Three rows...I don't really care.


----------

