# Installing Nuc in Horizontal Langstroth



## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

I will be getting my first bees this spring. I have pre ordered a local 5 frame nuc.

I originally was thinking about doing a top bar hive but then started thinking about compatibility with other beekeepers and decided to build a 30 deep frame horizontal Langstroth. I still may use some top bars in it as things progress.

I would like to try to start out foundationless. From what I have gathered, the bees will draw straighter comb if I sandwich empty frames between drawn comb.

I have built a divider, so I have the flexibility to start the bees with however many frames would be best. What would be the optimal configuration to install 3 frames of brood, 2 frames of honey and pollen, and the empty frames? Do I need to leave the existing brood frames together or should I put empties in between?

I was thinking something like this to start out:
Entrance - BBEBEHEH - divider

To pre-emt a bunch of responses, I am aware that foundationless will be more difficult starting out than using foundation. I have read pros and cons exhaustively. I would still like to give it a try. I am pretty hard headed and if there is a way to make it work I will do it.


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## mbear (May 18, 2017)

I wonder why so many people want to reinvent bee keeping before they know how to raise bees in the first place. On the up side I will sell a number of people nucs this year to replace the ones I sold them last year. Maybe next year as well. At some point they either figure it out or more likely they just quit bee keeping.


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## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

This isn't really helpful at all. Maybe I fail, maybe I succeed. But foundationless frames are not reinventing anything. Wasn't the original Langstroth patent foundationless.

Why is there so much more hatred and disdain for foundationless frames than there is for top bar hives?

I think you can attribute a lot of the foundationless hype to Micheal Bush. I read a ton on his site and he seems to have a good thing going.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Ironclad said:


> This isn't really helpful at all.


no, it wasn't helpful at all. 

welcome to beesource ironclad. your first post was a good one and it's a shame your first response from mbear was filled with snark.

i would suggest keeping the broodnest intact and adding a foundationless frame on both sides of the frames containing brood.

once those added frames are half to three quarters drawn add two more and so on.

you have probably already seen this:

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?351975-Want-Swarm-Prevention-Try-the-OSBN-Method

best of luck to you with your first bees and please keep us posted on how things are going.


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## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

Thanks, I appreciate the help. I do realize that there is a path of least resistance, and doing it the common way makes it a lot easier to get support.

However, this is going to be a hobby purely for my enjoyment, and in this as well as my other hobbies I get the most joy out of doing my own thing and experimenting a little.

If I was trying to start something for profit I would follow the formula to a tee, because I do believe that over the years the most efficient way of doing it has come out on top.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sounds good ic.

it's likely that you already know, but it's critical that your hive be perfectly leveled from left to right so that the bottom of the comb hits the bottom bar of the frame.

also, i choose to run a couple of horizontal wires on my deep foundationless frames so i don't have to be as careful with how i handle them during inspections.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Hi there ironclad. I switched from wax foundation to foundationless last year and am having pretty good success. Like Squarepeg suggested, your initial setup should be HEBBBEH-follower board. Be prepared to manipulate the new comb as it is being drawn and remove any that starts to get wonky. You will find that the queen will start laying in the new cells even before they are full depth. Assume any new comb has eggs in it. I use the ML groove top/grooved bottom frames with holes in the end bars. I glue in a 3/4" wide starter strip and paint a little beeswax on it. I also string the frame with 20# monofilament fishing line to support the comb. Good luck with your new hobby and be sure to include your location in your profile


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## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

Got it, thanks. I have grooved frames and I cut out 60 degree triangular bars the length and width of the top bar and glued and nailed them to the top bars. I will definitely look in to adding some wire or fishing line.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hiya - welcome aboard. As a 'serious' hobbyist unconcerned about profit, I tried Top Bar, then settled on running foundationless frames. I used to add monofilament fishing line to support the combs, but now prefer to use a couple of bamboo skewers instead.

Some good tips given already, to which I'd just add the advantage of supplying sugar syrup during the early weeks when they're drawing-out new combs, as back in 1880 or thereabouts some guys discovered that otherwise it takes 7 lbs of honey to make 1 lb of wax. Mind you, 1 lb of wax will make a helluva lot of combs ... 

Good luck - have fun (something which is frequently overlooked) - and do keep us posted as to progress.
LJ

PS - I found that gluing popsicle sticks into a groove works as well as triangular section, and is less work (for me, that is).


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## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

Do you just drill both sides of the frame and glue the skewers in?


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Ironclad said:


> Do you just drill both sides of the frame and glue the skewers in?


Much depends on the distance to be covered. Our (UK) standard frames are 14 inches across, so 16 inch skewers (the next available size) are required for horizontal use, and 16 inch skewers are 4.5 - 5mm diameter, and somewhat expensive.

But - here are some newly-made 17 inch frames with those skewers inserted horizontally: (Yes, drilled sides, glued in place)










Here are the same size skewers, only vertical: (photograph chosen for skewer visibility - normally the skewers are fully incorporated)










And a shot of the same size frames with bees - hopefully showing that the bees are not troubled by the presence of the skewers:










This is a shot of our 'standard' deep frame (8.5" deep) fitted with thin (3mm) skewers, ex supermarket and cheap , showing the advantage of the vertical format when raising natural queen cells:










And finally - sorry about the photo gallery ! - here's a shot of my latest experiment with modified 'Gallup Frames' which are fairly narrow at 12", and so I was able to use some 3mm supermarket skewers horizontally. I'll see how those perform before deciding whether to revert to vertical or not.










'best
LJ


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I love show and tell. Here is a picture of a ready to use frame strung with the fishing line and a pboto of a partially drawn frame. I would like to use bamboo skewers horizontally in my lang frames, but the 3mm x 400mm size is almost impossible to find.

View attachment 53297


So much for the drawn frame. Technical difficulties.


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## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

Well if you are going to start with pictures, here is the setup I built. Obviously it still needs the exterior finished.

Any particular reason you have to use bamboo? Would 1/8" dowel rod work or is it not rigid enough? It comes in 3' lengths.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Dowel rod does work. It is a lot more expensive than the bamboo skewers. One or two hives, cost is not an issue. 400+ frames and the costs can start to add up. I currently have about 900 frames in play, about 500 of which are deeps. LJ I believe, has even more that he is working with.

Your hive looks nice.


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## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

Ah I gotcha. Thanks.


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## Meghues (Jan 5, 2016)

I use bamboo skewers, from Amazon, horizontally in the deep frames. I sharpen both ends in a pencil apsharpener and flex them into the holes already in the frames. The tension keeps them fine.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

I have been using 2 vertical skewers per frame and it seems to work. I have been drilling 1/8 (I think) holes in both ends, installing the skewers in the frame, then shooting a staple thru the top and bottom of the frame and hopefully thru the skewer. After stapling I try twisting the skewers, and if they dont twist I know I got atleast one stable thru it. For glue to work you need consistent sized skewers, and the ones that I had were not.


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## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

Do you feel like the skewers help the bees draw straighter comb at all or is stability the only benefit?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Stability is the main reason for using any support. The bees will draw straight comb without any skewers or wires provided the hive is level and there is a flat surface next to the comb (like another well drawn comb).for them to reference.

My cut comb medium frames are starter strip only and the few that got drawn out last year were perfect.

Meghues, can you post a link to the skewers you buy?


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Ironclad said:


> Do you feel like the skewers help the bees draw straighter comb at all or is stability the only benefit?


Hopefully it will help rather than muddy the waters if I mention that one major difference WILL develop over time within an apiary which is run foundationless, in comparison with one which uses standard commercial foundation - and that is in the physical size of the bees which are kept there.

If a person begins beekeeping with bees which have been raised on standard foundation, then slowly, over a number of generations, and providing that new foundationless comb is being regularly drawn, the average size of the bees will gradually reduce until this stabilises at the bees' natural size.

At this natural size, the bees will draw what has become known (erroneously) as 'small cell' combs. [but they're actually 'natural size'. The standard size should more correctly be termed 'large cell' - but the reality is that we're stuck with current terminology]

Now this becomes relevant when new combs are being drawn-out, as the measurements employed when doing this are always referenced to the bees' own size, as they use their bodies as a template with which to base their constructions. Notably, this method of measurement extends to the inter-comb gap which consists of two 'bee-spaces'. [the bee-space actually being a range of values, rather than a single fixed value as sometimes stated]

I don't know what the situation is in the States, but in the UK regular 'off-the-shelf' commercially-made frames are pre-set with a 35mm spacing. This appears to work well enough with standard foundation, but is too wide a spacing for foundationless use, and there is always a tendency for the combs to 'wander' slightly to one side of the frame in order that the bees preserve their desired spacing.

This tendency can be thwarted by ensuring that bare frames are drawn-out whilst being sandwiched between either pre-drawn combs or a follower board - but a much better solution is to employ some means of frame-spacing adjustment. My girls seem to have levelled-out at around 33-34mm spacing, and I believe Michael Bush's are around 32mm.

A millimetre or two may not sound much to us HUGE humans, but to an organism which is only a handful of millimetres from head to toe, it can become a BIG deal - and such an error is accumulative ...
Just as with the combs of Top Bar Hives, a slight deviation in one comb is (unless suitable preventative steps are taken) transferred across to the next comb, and so on. But when the problem is one of frame-spacing, this error can compound until one new comb no longer lines up with it's intended frame starter-strip, and that's when the bees start to become 'creative'.  Because they don't really care about Frames and Top Bars and starter-strips - they don't mind too much being 'guided' by them, but they ARE there only for human benefit - all the bees care about is getting their combs drawn in a manner which fits THEIR needs.

I don't want to give the impression that the above represents some kind of major obstacle, but it's just something to be born in mind, especially if things start to go a little awry. Foundationless beekeeping *does* involve a few more 'issues' which need to be dealt with than when working with standard foundation, and so I do have some sympathy with mbear's earlier comment, although it could perhaps have been worded rather more diplomatically. 

'best
LJ


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## Western (May 29, 2016)

I use hardwood dowels from amazon and they work perfect, pack of 100 and all str8 as an arrow. They also slide thru the pre-drilled holes in the end bars just a tad snug, no glue needed.

I take a 36" DR slide it thru one hole, slide over to the opposing hole on the far side of the frame, when the end just touches the opposite end bar, I use a pair of wire cutters and cut the rod off about 3/16" extra then push the dowel in to the hole on the far end. Noe drilling and no gluing, has worked great all last year done horizontal and I can do one frame in less than 60 seconds if I want.

These are the ones I use. I only use 2 in a deep frame, midway and towards bottom, so one rod per frame. Comes out to about 40 cents a frame, but easy to work with. If they ever need replaced, they aren't hard to pull out once you clear away wax.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YVX9OU4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Brilliant link - never seen that company before - thanks 

BTW, by 'hardwood', they mean birch. If you order from https://www.craftparts.com (which is in Texas), they also supply in oak ... and will even supply dowels 48 inches long, from 1/4" upwards.

For long dowel rod, that has to be an excellent source. Again, thanks.
LJ


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## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

little_john said:


> I don't know what the situation is in the States, but in the UK regular 'off-the-shelf' commercially-made frames are pre-set with a 35mm spacing. This appears to work well enough with standard foundation, but is too wide a spacing for foundationless use, and there is always a tendency for the combs to 'wander' slightly to one side of the frame in order that the bees preserve their desired spacing.
> 
> This tendency can be thwarted by ensuring that bare frames are drawn-out whilst being sandwiched between either pre-drawn combs or a follower board - but a much better solution is to employ some means of frame-spacing adjustment. My girls seem to have levelled-out at around 33-34mm spacing, and I believe Michael Bush's are around 32mm.


My frames came at 1 3/8” (35mm). I have read from a couple of sources (I believe Micheal Bush and a top bar site) that bees prefer 1 1/4" (32mm) in the brood nest and 1 1/2" (38mm) in the honey supers.

I was unclear on whether the bees have to regress first in order to use the 1 1/4” spacing. Would you recommend going ahead and shaving my frames down before I even get bees?


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## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

little_john said:


> Foundationless beekeeping *does* involve a few more 'issues' which need to be dealt with than when working with standard foundation, and so I do have some sympathy with mbear's earlier comment, although it could perhaps have been worded rather more diplomatically.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What can I say? I'm a glutton for punishment.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Ironclad said:


> What can I say? I'm a glutton for punishment.


LOL - - join the club ...

Re: the spacing - I'd suggest just getting the bees installed first, and see how things pan out. If you should run into spacing problems, that could always be adjusted later. Things will probably be ok anyway for the first year or two - it's only later-on that regression takes place - and then it's a very gradual process.


A suggestion between now and when you get your first bees: 

Seeing as you're handy with woodworking tools, you might want to consider making a couple of nuc boxes - the sort which could double as swarm traps. When starting-out, having a few extra bees is always a good idea, and catching a swarm costs next to nothing, and is always a bonus if you should get lucky. Also, having at least two colonies is highly recommended, just in case anything should go pear-shaped. And it can happen, even to the 'best' (undefined) of us.

I don't know where you live (btw - suggest updating your profile ...) but if you're anywhere near a centre of population, or other beekeepers, then there's a pretty good chance of some free bees come April/May time.
'best,
LJ


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

If you haven't seen these plans already, here is a link to a nice and inexpensive swarm trap you can build. They can double as 6 frame nucs when you dont have them hanging in trees.
https://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/swarm-trap-free-plans.shtml


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## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

Got it. The nuc I'm buying is supposed to come with a wooden nuc box that I intended to use as a swarm trap afterwords. If the timing doesn't line up right I will build one.

I am in mid Missouri. I tried to update my profile but for whatever reason I can't do it on my phone. I will do it next time I'm at a computer.

There are bees around. I got the idea to get into beekeeping when I was splitting wood this winter and there were thousands of bees after the fresh cut logs, not bothering me as I split and stacked it all, brushing bees aside the whole time.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Ironclad said:


> Well if you are going to start with pictures, here is the setup I built. Obviously it still needs the exterior finished.


Welcome Ironclad, and here is hoping you enjoy your new hobby. Your hive build looks very nice but I have a couple of concerns. The first is about your long hive legs from an engineering standpoint and one concern from an operation standpoint about your inner covers.


A loaded 30 frame deep hive could weight more than 300 lbs (~250 lbs of frames plus the box weight). It has to withstand wind loads and also you leaning on it when fully loaded. My concern is with the way the legs are secured into the sides of the hive. That connection point appears to be rather minimal, especially for an angled leg. The top edge of the miter on the 2x4 leg is a fulcrum against the side of your hive body and it creates a class two lever working on your fasteners into the wall of the hive. This creates tension and bending forces on the wood and the fasteners much the same way a claw hammer pulls a nail or screw from wood. I suggest that you add a stretcher to each pair of opposite splayed hive legs just below the hive box. The stretcher converts the individual legs to an A frame with the stretcher as the — in the A. This will absorb tension and bending forces where the leg joins box side so that the load there is only a shear load. It also keeps the leg angle fixed. Loosing a leg on that thing in the second or third year and having it tip over fully loaded is an avoidable tragedy. 

It appears from the picture that your inner cover rests directly on the top bars of your frames. You should have a space, 5-16" to 3/8", between the inner cover and your frames. Most long Langstroth designs employ a double rabbet. The lower inner rabbet is the frame rest, and the upper one is for the inner covers, supporting the inner cover at least one bee space above the frame. If you put the inner cover directly on the frames then the bees will propolize it in place and you'll have a very difficult time removing it and it will be nearly impossible to lift without also lifting frames. This beespace above the frames is one crucial way that a Langstrogh differs from a Kenyan top bar type hive. I suspect you were unaware of that distinction when you built your hive box. In the KTB the top bars close off the hive top, bees can't get at the space above the bar and the bar top is outside the hive cavity. Langstroth frames don't close off the space between frame top bars and the frame top is inside the hive cavity, so you must keep one beespace above to keep them from gluing the frames and inner cover together. The additional space is also useful for pollen patty or sugar brick feeding. 

If you need to modify the hive box I suggest you get both modifications made before you get bees in it.

I use a combination of foundationless and foundation. I use plastic foundation in my honey supers because it is durable and withstands centrifugal extraction very well. If you plan on doing centrifugal extraction you might want to consider this advantage. This is moot if you are doing crush and strain extraction. I let them build some foundationless comb in brood boxes just because foundationless is free. I use monfilament fishing line to support the comb as others have mentioned. I intersperse foundationless frames with foundation to keep the comb straight. I do install starter strips of wax foundation in my foundationless frames, it seems to help them get started straight.


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## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

JConnolly,

Thanks for taking the time to critique my design.

I fully agree with you on the bracing for the legs. It is strong enough right now but over time will be a weak point. I will definitely be bracing side to side and I am considering cross bracing end to end as well. 2x4s are cheaper than bees. I will also probably be anchoring the legs to the ground with rebar and pinning the outer cover on. We get a lot of wind up here on the ridge.

The inner cover issue I had not considered. You are correct, it was a bad hybrid of top bar and horizontal lang. Shouldn't be too tough to make it right.

I do not plan to extract at this point. I would like to do comb honey if it looks decent.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Four possible ways of dealing with the 'top space' issue:

a) router-out all new rebates (rabbets) - but that's a lot of work.

b) attach 1/4" - 3.8" battens along the hive side top surfaces.

c) attach 1/4" - 3.8" battens along the edges of the Crown Board (inner cover), where they contact the hive's sides.

d) no nothing - just lay a sheet of thick plastic/ canvas/ woven feed bag etc. directly onto the Top Bars.


Re: legs - FWIW - this is about the nearest to what you've made:










That hive was 4ft long, with frames 12" deep - so it got pretty heavy when fully loaded-up. The removable legs were 3.5" x 1.5" section, and each had two 6mm through-bolts which were fitted with penny washers on either end together with wing nuts. The main box was later cut in half to make a pair of more traditional hives. The roof and legs were then removed. 
I still have half-a-dozen hives with this leg arrangement, although my current preference is for separate stands onto which each hive body is placed.
'Best
LJ


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## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

Yeah, I will probably attach pieces to the edges of the top covers so they index off the top of the hive body instead of the frames.

I like your leg arrangement. Unfortunately I have I screened bottom with a removable 1/2" plywood solid bottom underneath that pulls out from the end of the hive. Putting the legs on the end would interfere with that, and I didn't think vertical legs would be stable enough.


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

I second the separate stand idea. I have some top bar hives I built. But after the first one, which had the legs attached, all the newer ones have separate stands. Separate stands make the hive much easier to transport. Also, if you want to catch a swarm and the swarm is in an easy location, you can bring the whole hive over to catch them. Then when you bring them home you can just put the hive on the stand. Works for me anyway.


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

Ironclad said:


> I will be getting my first bees this spring. I have pre ordered a local 5 frame nuc.
> 
> I originally was thinking about doing a top bar hive but then started thinking about compatibility with other beekeepers and decided to build a 30 deep frame horizontal Langstroth. I still may use some top bars in it as things progress.
> 
> ...


I would get a few sheets of wax foundation, install two of these as full sheets, and cut another into ~3/4" strips ( wedge-top frames are recommended). Secure the strips with the wedge and use wire or monofilament as comb supports. Start with a food frame, then a starter strip frame, then the brood frames, then full sheet, food frame, starter strip, full sheet, starter strip and follower board. If you want, mark the full wax frames to remove later if you want. Look up Les Crowder or buy his book on top bar frame manipulation. Good Luck. I'm in zone 7-b and this long Lang. works great( so do my 10 and 8 frame Langs). I mainly use mine as a resource colony that I can take from as needed.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Welcome aboard ic. Your hive looks nice and with those mods should be good to go. (Fwiw I think screened bottom boards are good for ventilation if you live in a swamp and need too much and are good for mite control if you do confectioners sugar dusting so the mites fall through and good for mite assessments if you want to know how many mites WERE on your bees.)
I use foundationless deeps in langs also for honey extraction. I may have more than 1000 now, not sure. No supports or wires. I have had blowouts in radial extractor: means I need to be picky about which frames get extracted.
I would definitely shave down frames to 32mm. I use narrow frames in brood area and wider in honey. Of course a narrow frame can be spaced wider, a wide one not narrower.... Narrow frames allow fewer bees to raise more brood in spring build up. Side bars need to be shaved to 32mm. Bottom of side bars may need to be modified to allow bee space below the shoulder so it's not propolized. To make top bar compatible with vertical langs it will need to be shaved as well so it does not act like a queen excluder. Its a pita to modify frames like this but a fun winter project and you only need about ten. I Mark my top bars "NF" so I know at a glance.
Not sure how early you are getting your nuc for your season. If it is really cold I would leave nuc intact and add an empty frame on one side (hbbbhe). If it is a bit warmer put one empty frame in between brood and honey and one beyond h (hbbbehe). If it is really warm as sp suggested above (hebbbeh). If your entrance is on a gable end and it is warm enough to break up the nuc then do (entrance on left, follower board on right) bbbehh or ebbbehh and keep pushing honey farther back. If entrance is in middle center the brood over the entrance and expand follower boards as needed. Keep the e frame next to brood as that will be a better template than a honey frame. Only if it is really warm and they are threatening to get ahead of you can you separate 2 brood combs with an e. I find they draw the comb faster and straighter this way but at the cost of violating the brood nest.
Have fun! I think you are on the right track!


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## bobo (Feb 15, 2015)

More simply than making beespace above the top bars is to secure a piece of plastic or canvas or other cloth to set over the bees. It allows for greater heat conservation as well. 

(There are a number of good youtube vids from beeks in eastern europe. Although I do not understand the language their techniques are illuminating. They almost exclusively use cloth as an inner cover. One of the great advantages is that the cloth can be progressively peeled back to examine single frames rather than exposing the entire brood nest as would be required with a hardboard inner cover.) 

I'm not sure where you plan to locate your entrance(s). I would suggest lower rather than higher, and perhaps more than one spaced end, mid, end. They can be opened progressively as the colony grows.

I would place your nuc at one end, with a single small lower entrance, with a styrofoam (or other material) divider frame/spacer, limiting access to the rest of the space (also limits their need to heat the whole box, which would be tremendously stressful). 

Conserving the integrity of the brood nest whilst reducing stress to heat unnecessary space will go far toward enhancing your success.

Wish you the best in your new adventure.


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## BernieBe (May 29, 2018)

Welcome, Ironclad!

Thank you for posting these questions. I am borrowing a Horizontal Hive from a club member soon. And plan to put a nuc in is this spring. I am in the middle of going foundationless and am about to trim a couple of millimeters from hundreds of frames too. If only I had known before I assembled them. Doh!

I already used vertical bamboo skews in my medium superframes. I drill a 1/8" hole in the tope and drive the bamboo home. I used a drop of glue in the past, but I have found once the frame is in the humid environment of the hive and the bees have propolis the hole, it will never come out.

I do love Show-n-Tell with pictures too. I wish people posted more images.

Might I suggest you pick an English book on the Darington Hive, his management book is the best I have found for a horizontal hive. He takes the HHEEBB method of description to an art form. The book describes the management of the colony from a nuc/swarms to a full hive and out to the second year management. 

Darington is in it for the pure joy of beekeeping. Walmart's website has the book cheaper sometimes than you can order the book from England. I want to build a Darrington in a couple of years.

The advice above is all great. I would add since the English are more experienced with end boards. You might want to make some insolated endboards for the spring & winter too. Ware bees are more happy and productive.

@JWPalmer What is the fascination with horizontal spans of dowl or skews? Is it familiarity? Structurally speaking, vertical skews are more straightforward and, in most frames, shorter. The only CON I found is that you have to cut the popsicle sticks to fit in the grooves. 

@bobo What keywords did you use to find the Easter European videos? Or do you have a playlist? 

I have so enjoyed this thread. It combines several things I want to try in the next couple of years.

BernieBe

Ref: NEW BEEKEEPING in a Long Deep Hive by Robin Darington.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Bernie, for 1.25 inch spacing you don't need to do all your frames. (Though it is easier to shave pre assembly.) Only the brood frames matter. Honey frames should be spaced farther anyway. And at that only the middle frames are most important. If you add new narrow frames 1 or 2 at a time to existing brood nest you can move towards narrow spacing without needing hundreds of frames. If it's all new equipment and you don't have any bees yet just shave about 5 / brood box. It'll take a whole for a few packages to draw a hundred frames.... Have fun!


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

BernieBe, I prefer horizontal just because. I do notice that when the bees are festooning they tend to hang onto the next horizontal guide string and the hope is that they draw straighter comb as a result. Whether this actually is the case is not yet confirmed. I am at the point where I don't mind experimenting with different ideas just to see what happens. So far the horizontal fishing line has worked out well, provided there is a flat surface next to the foundationless frame. I already have found out what happens if you give the bees an entire box of foundationless frames with nothing to guide them. Not pretty.


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## bobo (Feb 15, 2015)

Bernie, 
I looked up an english to ukrainian translator on google, inserted beekeeping words like beekeeping, hive, honey, queen.

This is what came up: бджільництво, королева, вулик, медонос

If you copy and paste into the You tube page many videos will appear.

This is the website of one of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWgJ_nr7ipQ

Have fun!


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## honeyhartbees (Jan 26, 2020)

On the subject of bamboo skewers. Walmart, 100 skewers for $.98, and they are plenty long enough to go top to bottom of deep frame.


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## beemantn (Jan 4, 2019)

Ironclad just a side thought on your hive design. They get pretty heavy so you may want to consider adding some bracing to the legs of your hive. It would not be good to find it on the ground or badly tilted due to excess weight. Just a thought. Hope all goes well. I'm trying horizontal hive this year as well.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

bobo said:


> More simply than making beespace above the top bars is to secure a piece of plastic or canvas or other cloth to set over the bees. It allows for greater heat conservation as well.


This is definitely an option. For some Youtube video examples look for the channel for The honey bee research center at the University of Guelph in Ontario. They use #8 duck canvas, and you can see it in use in most of their videos.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

As has already been pointed out, the legs are going to be an issue. Any amount of weight and they will split like a wishbone. I have 6 top bar hives I built with similar legs but they are on the ends and are attached to the hives from the bottom of the hive side all the way to the top of the hive. so there is a fair amount of connection. I also fall over them several times a year. In spite of falling over them on a regular basis, I like the splayed legs because it makes a base that is wider than the hive is tall and creates a lot of stability. It is also hard to get them level at my home because the apiary is on a slope.


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## BernieBe (May 29, 2018)

Many thanks for the advice Amibusiness slowly replace brood frames. It easier as I move to foundationless and smaller cell. I do like all equipment to be standard. 

Bono, thank you I will take a look. I watch German vids and they all seem to use cloth or plastic as innermost covers. The U of Guelph video all show duck canvas as inner covers. I started to experiment with that the bees seem okay with it. Just wondering how the airflow dynamics in the hive change and wher do all the teenager bees go to drink and smoke if there is no attic? 

JWPalmer I to am always experimenting. Since I started over in bees I’m trying to come up with modification that work for my zone that provide advantage. I’m not convinced horizontal hive provide enough advantages in Zone 5. Not enough heat rising area for the bees to clusters. I will insulate my experimental box and see how that goes. At the worst I’ll convert the horizontal hive into a coffins style nuc box for the summer. 

Ironclad you can just add some strips of wood to the top edge of you box to get the space you need. In the winter how are you going to insulate the top? Can you just cut a sheet of foam to use above the screens?


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

BernieBe said:


> I watch German vids and they all seem to use cloth or plastic as innermost covers.


I have seen some Scandinavian beekeepers using clear rigid plastic perspex (or plexiglass) under a hyper-insulated cover with no upper vents on YouTube so I decided to try that experiment this winter on one hive. It is a small colony from a September queen where I moved the nuc into an 8 frame deep with a donor filled 8 frame medium above it, clear perspex cover, and a cover with 2" XPS foam insulation. The claim by the users of those covers was that that no condensation forms on the perspex because of the insulated cover. Condensation forms on the hive walls instead, where it then runs down to the bottom or the bees can drink it. I can lift the cover and see the bees through the clear perspex without breaking the seal, even on very cold days. I've been checking on them weekly and I have not seen any condensation.


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## Meghues (Jan 5, 2016)

*Re: Installing Nuc in Horizontal Langstroth -skewers*



honeyhartbees said:


> On the subject of bamboo skewers. Walmart, 100 skewers for $.98, and they are plenty long enough to go top to bottom of deep frame.


I use these from amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007TB6XAE/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
18 inches is about perfect after sharpening.


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## souficoufi (Dec 10, 2016)

Bonjour 
Il y'a aussi le problème des "Y" et 3Y inversé" des faces des cires.


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## Rww930 (Mar 14, 2016)

I have TB and Lang. Every year someone tells me that you can't overwinter bees in a TB hive. Every year I dare them to stick there hand in there and grab a bunch of bees that didn't overwinter. No takers yet.

Do it however you want Ironclad. Just keep them fed (when necessary), dry and as mite free as possible. With foundation or without. I have both.


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

JConnolly said:


> I have seen some Scandinavian beekeepers using clear rigid plastic perspex (or plexiglass) under a hyper-insulated cover with no upper vents on YouTube so I decided to try that experiment this winter on one hive. It is a small colony from a September queen where I moved the nuc into an 8 frame deep with a donor filled 8 frame medium above it, clear perspex cover, and a cover with 2" XPS foam insulation. The claim by the users of those covers was that that no condensation forms on the perspex because of the insulated cover. Condensation forms on the hive walls instead, where it then runs down to the bottom or the bees can drink it. I can lift the cover and see the bees through the clear perspex without breaking the seal, even on very cold days. I've been checking on them weekly and I have not seen any condensation.


Do you the bees put propolis on the Perspex? Does it stay clean?


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

JConnolly said:


> This is definitely an option. For some Youtube video examples look for the channel for The honey bee research center at the University of Guelph in Ontario. They use #8 duck canvas, and you can see it in use in most of their videos.


I have used the canvas, and the bees will propolize it, some more than others. This is not a huge problem, but sometimes it can be upsetting to bees that aren't in a good mood already, it happens when you are having to rip it loose from the frames. The Buckstaff bees at the U.ofG., are VERY gentle.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

unstunghero said:


> Do you the bees put propolis on the Perspex? Does it stay clean?


They sealed the perspex down at the edges with propolis and there is some wax on it, but its still easy to see through it. The perspex is just six months old, we'll have to see how it goes into the future.


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## Ironclad (Jan 25, 2020)

Just an update: I have had my nuc for a week now and I inspected it this weekend. They seem to be doing a nice job drawing out comb on the foundationless frames. Since neither was fully drawn I just gave them one more and then gave them a couple of frames with wax foundation at the back of the box in case they run out of room. I have read that they will not draw out the foundation until they run out of room on the foundationless. I guess we will see.

Has anyone tried to go ahead and add a foundationless frame next to another that is only maybe half drawn? I'm wondering if they will keep drawing straight comb or if they will go wonky if they arent confined at the bottom.


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