# OA Treatment with Brood - 3x5 or 3x7



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Most people prefer 4 treatments 5 days apart. It gives mites less time between treatments to get under cappings to mate and be protected from the next round of treatments.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

The 5 day cycle is preferable as mentioned.

However for some it's not possible to treat every 5 days for various reasons, work schedule being one. They may have no choice but to treat every 7 days (weekend warriors). Not sure where you are located but in many of the northern states 4 treatments every 7 days will really do a number on the mites. That's my typical routine and it works pretty well. Haven't had mite related issues for some time. 

Might not be the best cycle, but it works well if done during the summer dearth when most colonies have really cut back on brood rearing. If you are in the south a 5 day treatment schedule might be necessary.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Mike & dudeit are spot on!


----------



## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

newbee979 said:


> I see pretty conflicting advice on using OA with brood present.
> ...


Neither schedule is a solution if drone or worker brood is present, unless the goal is to postpone the inevitable collapse until a couple of months later.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

baybee said:


> Neither schedule is a solution if drone or worker brood are present, unless the goal is to postpone the inevitable collapse until a couple of months later.


I beg to differ, for many it works quite well.


----------



## Grady Stanley (Jul 7, 2017)

snl said:


> I beg to differ, for many it works quite well.


:thumbsup:


----------



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Baybee thank goodness you informed me that OAV will not prevent my hives from collapsing seeing I have been using OAV for 4 to 5 years now and nothing else so I guess next year must be my collapsed year.
Johno


----------



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

snl said:


> I beg to differ, for many it works quite well.


I could not agree more. However, every area of the country is different. In my area, there is almost no drone comb by the end of July. At that time, every year, we are in a major dearth and they are kicking out the freeloading drones. All beekeepers need to remember that beekeeping is local. You have to know your area and find out what works best.


----------



## newbee979 (Jul 28, 2018)

dudelt said:


> Most people prefer 4 treatments 5 days apart. It gives mites less time between treatments to get under cappings to mate and be protected from the next round of treatments.


Good deal, thanks for your reply. I just started my first round today and will it Thursday, and next Tuesday. 

Here in central Texas, I'm not seeing much drone brood at all, so either way...mostly talking worker brood here. 

Have any of you had any correlation between queen loss and OA treatments? This is my first year so after vaporizing them all, I just kept hoping that queen wasn't right where I slid in that wand. Ha!


----------



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I have never seen any queen issues using OAV. I am sure someone has fried their queen but I have never heard of it. For a bit of insurance, you can build a 1 inch spacer to put between your bottom box and the bottom board.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Give a few good strong puffs of the smoker then knock down any ladder comb that may be in the way of the wand, then another puff before you shove in the wand. That will guarantee the queen will be far away. You really do not want melted burr comb on the surface of the oxalic acid in the pan anyways. 

The advantage of the external heating and just blowing in the OA cloud of dust makes the Pro Vap (or Johno) type more attractive for quick, easy, and safer operation. With the drilled hole in the rear of the hive, a person can do a vaporization so easily rain or shine, night or day that there is not the temptation to wait a week or more between treatments.
My inclination is to extend the coverage time a bit longer than the original period since drones are under cappings 3 days or so longer than worker.

I dont want to alarm the 3X at 7 day interval purists too much but I think there is less risk to the bees with a few more but closer spaced applications. They have some scary stories but not well supported by the observed resullts in the field.


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

snl said:


> I beg to differ, for many it works quite well.


+1 "Neither schedule is a solution if drone or worker brood are present" I think you've mistaking a zero count on mites for one that bees can easily handle. 
3 treatments 7 days a part is plenty. I don't even do that and I rarely loose a hive. You don't have to kill every mite in a hive to have a significant impact.


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

johno said:


> Baybee thank goodness you informed me that OAV will not prevent my hives from collapsing seeing I have been using OAV for 4 to 5 years now and nothing else so I guess next year must be my collapsed year.
> Johno


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

baybee said:


> Neither schedule is a solution if drone or worker brood is present, unless the goal is to postpone the inevitable collapse until a couple of months later.


Would love to see your basis for this statement. Hives treated 4x5 or 3x7 or 3x5 and if you lose a hive (inevitable collapse) it will not be from mites.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Robbin said:


> +1 "Neither schedule is a solution if drone or worker brood are present" I think you've mistaking a zero count on mites for one that bees can easily handle.
> 3 treatments 7 days a part is plenty. I don't even do that and I rarely loose a hive. You don't have to kill every mite in a hive to have a significant impact.


I beg to differ on this Since mite growth is exponential rather than incremental, it makes a big difference a ways down the road if you leave 10 mites alive rather than 1. The trite old saying "do the math" applies! When it comes to fighting mites, " Take no prisoners" is my motto.

I am quite isolated from other bees and actually have had many seasons with no mites. In such a circumstance you really can get to zero.


----------



## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

I'm the exact opposite. I treat as seldom as possible. Twice a year, and I mean treating 2 times. Once during the dearth after the supers come off and once at thanksgiving. 
My drop count's after treatment are in the many thousands. Brood count is low both times of year but not zero. That's all my bees need, I rarely loose a hive that wasn't queenless
and then SHB are the culprits. Hats off to you guys way north still able to raise bees.... My average high mid winter is mid 50s. We do get occasional hard freezes but it's rare for use to 
go 4 days without a fly day. I don't have to insulate hives. I can feed just about any time if I need to. We do have a TON of pests...
Good luck!


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Frank, that would be true if a "one and done" treatment series was your goal. For most of us, mites are coming in from crashing hives on a regular basis. We'll do a series, wait awhile, then do another series. In this case, Robbin is correct, as a few mites left in a hive won't have doubled or tripled enough times to be a problem before the next treatment is needed to kill the hundreds of mites the foragers picked up from the failing hives they robbed out. You are indeed lucky that your hives are so isolated.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

crofter said:


> I am quite isolated from other bees and actually have had many seasons with no mites. In such a circumstance you really can get to zero.


That's my situation too, and for many years one single dose of VOA in midwinter proved adequate - so that I could say with some confidence that I did *not* have a problem with Varroa. That is, until one summer when I developed a bad case of DWV in just one colony, so I gave it 4 doses of VOA 5 days apart ... and then added one more dose 5 days later 'just to make sure'. Maybe the last one wasn't strictly necessary, but I really wanted to knock that situation 'on the head'. There have been no problems since that time, and so I've stayed with the single mid-winter dose protocol.

That is, until this year. I've made one of Johno's band heater vapourisers, and dosing VOA has now become so much faster and easier that I've multi-dosed the whole apiary during the season for the very first time. All I can say thus far is that I've yet to see a single malformed bee, whereas I've always spotted a handful in the past - which I've taken as a sign that the Varroa mite is still present, albeit in non-critical numbers. So with luck, I may be even be down to a zero or a near-zero infestation. Here's hoping ...
LJ


----------



## fatshark (Jun 17, 2009)

Same experience here little_john ... we have relatively isolated apiaries, treat when/if appropriate and take a lot of care to treat early enough in the autumn to protect the winter bees. Mite levels the last couple of years have been exceptionally low (the than in swarms we've acquired). For work we routinely inspect dozens of pupae per week and have yet to see a mite this year, let alone a bee with deformed wings.

However, not mite-free ... midwinter trickle or OAV treatment (timed to a known brood-free period) always winkles out a few more of the little blighters 

For my latitude this treatment regimen means often treating before others are considering it ... mid-August and mid/late November. Honey supers are now all off as the flow is effectively over, so I'll be gearing up to treat pretty soon.


----------



## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

Worthwhile read on timing of treatments. At least food for thought.

https://honeybeesuite.com/using-oxalic-acid-vaporization-when-brood-is-present/


----------



## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

The worker life cycle is 21 days from egg to hatching. 3x5 doesnt extend open brood times far enough. 4x5 would barely. (at 20 days ) If you are worried do 4x7 day treatments. I guess you could get the same effect from 5 times, 5 days apart. 


That should cover the entire cycle, open And closed brood. I have good results personally with 3 treatments at 7 days.


----------



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

The cycle you should be looking at is from when the larvae is capped until the bee emerges which would be around 13 to 16 days depending on worker or drone brood.
Johno


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I just started using OAV and have read Rusty's blog. Tomorrow I will doing treatment #2 in a 3x6 series. That will cover 18 days and should be plenty to get any late emerging drone brood. At the end of the month they will get Apivar strips which will carry them through the middle of October. Final OAV will be a single dose around Thanksgiving when all my hives will be broodless and not doing much flying, ie, no incoming mites.


----------



## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Spur9 said:


> Worthwhile read on timing of treatments. At least food for thought.
> 
> https://honeybeesuite.com/using-oxalic-acid-vaporization-when-brood-is-present/


yes yes


----------



## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Robbin said:


> I'm the exact opposite. I treat as seldom as possible. Twice a year, and I mean treating 2 times. Once during the dearth after the supers come off and once at thanksgiving.
> My drop count's after treatment are in the many thousands. Brood count is low both times of year but not zero. That's all my bees need, I rarely loose a hive that wasn't queenless
> and then SHB are the culprits. Hats off to you guys way north still able to raise bees.... My average high mid winter is mid 50s. We do get occasional hard freezes but it's rare for use to
> go 4 days without a fly day. I don't have to insulate hives. I can feed just about any time if I need to. We do have a TON of pests...
> Good luck!


About the same here Robbin, at most once during the dearth and once around Thanksgiving, some years just the one time at Thanksgiving, my bees have no brood then, they are survivor bees that I've bred for years and unlike Italians they completely shut down laying then. The Europeans usually treat with OAV once per year also.


----------



## harryw73002 (Aug 3, 2015)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Not sure where you are located but in many of the northern states 4 treatments every 7 days will really do a number on the mites. That's my typical routine and it works pretty well. Haven't had mite related issues for some time.
> 
> Might not be the best cycle, but it works well if done during the summer dearth when most colonies have really cut back on brood rearing. If you are in the south a 5 day treatment schedule might be necessary.


Hi Mike, you're not too far from me. Do you mind if I ask when you start your first round of OA typically? 
I usually hit my bees with formic early August and OA around Thanksgiving. 
Thanks.


https://harryshoneypot.com


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I promote five day intervals and *as many times as it takes* to get the mite count down! Don't back off and wait for some period of time to start another round! No _Marquess de Queensbury rules_ in this game!


----------



## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

crofter said:


> I promote five day intervals and *as many times as it takes* to get the mite count down! Don't back off and wait for some period of time to start another round! No _Marquess de Queensbury rules_ in this game!


Last year we did 4 treatments 5 days apart. We test both pre and post treatments on selected groups of hives from each yard. I also did a follow up treatment late in the season last year as some colonies had a spike in Varroa. This season we are doing 5 treatments 5 days apart and just finished the fourth treatment today. I will again test after to determine effectiveness.


----------



## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

How many dead mites on a sticky board after 3 days, after doing OAV is threshold to treat again in 4-7 days?

Only number I know is over 30. My understanding is that 30 over a three day period is the threshold, if one is using sticky boards to monitor mites(no OAV being applied).

For example, if one counts 100 dead mites after 3 days, is another OAV treatment required?


----------



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

How many dead mites on the sticky board depends on where you are in your treatment series and also whether there is brood present. The size of the colony has also to be taken into consideration. Just bare in mind if you get 100% of your mites in your first treatment there could remain 4 times more in your brood, so I would only consider the mite drop of the 5th treatment and not place too much credence on that, I would rather start treating again around 3 weeks later or do an alcohol wash to see what mite levels remain. If at this stage we count 100 mite drop on the sticky and we guess the bee population at 25,000 that would relate to 1 mite per 250 bees or little more than 1% or a total of around 5% total infestation, would anyone be happy with that? Maybe as we can get those in the broodless treatments, I say treatments as I will treat in late November and again in December when the temperature allows.
Johno


----------



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Sorry I messed up with my math the total infestation would be much lower at about 1%
Johno


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

baybee said:


> Neither schedule is a solution if drone or worker brood is present, unless the goal is to postpone the inevitable collapse until a couple of months later.


Just not true. Either will kill enough mites to insure that the hive is healthy. If not show us your numbers where you have treat either way shown above and your mites counts are high.


----------

