# Gut Altering Antibiotic



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks for sharing that jeff, i had not seen it yet.

nancy moran has published similar findings in the past, i'll have to dig into this paper over the weekend and see what is 'new'.


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Always interesting to read new things. Reading the summary and Results brings a question about gut microbes. Michael Bush talks about sugar syrup changing gut microbes in the honey bee, if he is right, the question becomes, "Is the syrup in this study a valid 'control' to test the hypothesis?" Just thinking out loud.


----------



## Jeff L (Dec 13, 2016)

I think Michael Bush's issue with syrup is the Ph not being acidic enough so it could also disrupt the environment the microbes live in.
Since both were given the syrup if it indeed killed any of the microbes it would of been the same for both groups.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

In a former career lifetime I was involved in commercial poultry production. I worked for the largest meat producer in the world. Probiotics, which is just a fancy name for gut microbes, is one of the fastest growing areas in meat production. I have seen them make huge impacts on specific farms, not every farm, but some of them where the management seemed okay but there always seemed to be something "wrong" that couldn't be pinpointed.

I know I read just a day or two ago that someone was sequencing the species of beneficial bacteria present in the gut of honeybees. IMO, when those get isolated and are able to be grown and sold as an easily administered probiotic, it will be a game changer for beekeepers.

It will increase their immune system and that's gonna be huge.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Good study thanks for posting.
MB has said that for years. 

>"Is the syrup in this study a valid 'control' to test the hypothesis?"

I suspect that sugar changes the microbes very slightly as I imaging different pollen and nectar sources would also slightly change them. Nothing like the effect antibiotics or worse antimicrobial essential oils.


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Jeff L said:


> ...Since both were given the syrup if it indeed killed any of the microbes it would of been the same for both groups.


I'll buy into that, thank you.


----------



## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

Brad Bee said:


> In a former career lifetime I was involved in commercial poultry production. I worked for the largest meat producer in the world. Probiotics, which is just a fancy name for gut microbes, is one of the fastest growing areas in meat production. I have seen them make huge impacts on specific farms, not every farm, but some of them where the management seemed okay but there always seemed to be something "wrong" that couldn't be pinpointed.
> 
> I know I read just a day or two ago that someone was sequencing the species of beneficial bacteria present in the gut of honeybees. IMO, when those get isolated and are able to be grown and sold as an easily administered probiotic, it will be a game changer for beekeepers.
> 
> It will increase their immune system and that's gonna be huge.


Have you looked at SuperDFM? www.strongmicrobials.com Mann Lake sells it...


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm sure sugar syrup changes the biome less than antibiotics...


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

tpope said:


> Have you looked at SuperDFM? www.strongmicrobials.com Mann Lake sells it...


Nope but I will thanks


----------



## Jeff L (Dec 13, 2016)

Making the assumption that bees get most of their gut bacteria before they are capped, it would be interesting to see how long it would take a colony as a whole to get back to a normal level if you were to add capped brood from an untreated hive.
Once they hatch and assume the role as nurse bees they would be passing on their bacteria.


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> I'm sure sugar syrup changes the biome less than antibiotics...


No argument there...I was thinking a third option would have been to compare gut microbes in bees: 1) Eating sugar syrup, 2) Syrup with antibiotics, AND to bees eating 3) Their own honey.


----------



## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

Jeff L said:


> Making the assumption that bees get most of their gut bacteria before they are capped, it would be interesting to see how long it would take a colony as a whole to get back to a normal level if you were to add capped brood from an untreated hive.
> Once they hatch and assume the role as nurse bees they would be passing on their bacteria.


The larvae sheds its gut just before it pupates. The bee gut is sterile on emergence and gets some microbi inoculation through chewing through the wax emerging and being fed by other bees. These substances don't account for all the gut bacteria that the bees end up with. 

The inoculation period is about 3-4 days, the same length of time the bee is in the cleaning role.

Most likely when cleaning, the bees are consuming poop from older bees that completes their gut microbes.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Making the assumption that bees get most of their gut bacteria before they are capped

They actually get inoculated twice. The first as a larvae which kicks their immune system into gear and keeps them alive. The second after they emerge because, as Ramona pointed out, they shed their gut and emerge with a basically sterile gut.


----------

