# Too many stings/venom?



## BackYardPhenomena (Jul 11, 2012)

I did two removals over the course of the weekend and suffered 5 or more deep penetrating stings on both days. Stings don't usually bother me and my hives rarely pop me, but I was concerned about getting too much venom in my system.

Now I don't know if it was the fatigue from walking around in boots, up and down ladders or what not, but yesterday evening while lying down maybe 4 hours after I finished the job my at and shin muscles started to cramp. 

Any comments or experience with this?


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## Stlnifr (Sep 12, 2010)

Using muscles you haven't used in a while going up and down the ladder. As far stings I took 75 hits of yellow jackets no adverse affect.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BackYardPhenomena said:


> Now I don't know if it was the fatigue from walking around in boots, up and down ladders or what not, but yesterday evening while lying down maybe 4 hours after I finished the job my at and shin muscles started to cramp.


If you don't work regularly off a ladder you will get cramps. My concern is not knowing your sting tolerance when working off a ladder. It can be life threatening.


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## MTBeeGirl (Apr 24, 2015)

Acebird said:


> My concern is not knowing your sting tolerance when working off a ladder. It can be life threatening.


How would you know your sting tolerance? I'm a new beekeeper, well in a few weeks anyway when my bees come, and have been wondering about this. I remember I've gotten stung by bees as a kid and my greatgrandpa had bees, but I haven't been stung in a loooong time. I was reading a responsible beek keeps an epipen (sp?) in his toolbox...do you? Should I?


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## Paulemar (Aug 28, 2013)

I'd also make sure that you are drinking enough water. Being dehydrated will make you more prone to getting cramps, especially after doing work as you described.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

MTBeeGirl said:


> How would you know your sting tolerance? I'm a new beekeeper,


By being an experienced beekeeper that has taken a number of stings. From what I have read I don't think it is normal to not get stung when doing a cut out. I think a newbie alone doing cut outs from a ladder is a risk.


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## Fergus (Jan 27, 2015)

I carry an epipen in my box. I on occasion have my sons schoolmates or curious friends out to the hives and I am concerned for them. I had to get a prescription for the pen. Be advised the prescription was for me! I inquired about using it on someone else and was told that they could not advise on the subject as the pen was prescribed for me. Using it on another is a grey area. While I would not hesitate to use it on anyone in need there may be a liability if things went south. I do not have experience in law nor am I a Dr.


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## MTBeeGirl (Apr 24, 2015)

Huh, I did not know any of that. I thought maybe you can just buy one. Thank you very much for that info, Fergus.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

MTBeeGirl said:


> I was reading a responsible beek keeps an epipen (sp?) in his toolbox...


Not true at all!

And, unless you are actually allergic and would go into anaphylactic shock if stung (not just the normal swelling and itching), 5 stings is nothing.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Five stings is nothing if you are not allergic. That would be a first day of apitherapy! lol Best not to have an empty stomach when getting stung and stay hydrated. Bee venom is good for the body unless you are allergic.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

I try to keep a bottle of liquid Benadryl in my 'bee tool bag'. If I begin to get a reaction to stings (has never happened), I can just take a drink through my veil to hopefully stifle any serious reaction.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

It's been a while since I read this, so pardon me if it is out of date. There was a time when it was thought that the average non-allergic person could take ~ 200 bee stings before going into anaphylactic shock. Beekeepers (non-allergic), having developed some "immunity" could take twice that many - ~400. This is old info, and I'd have to dig for the verification, so don't run out and test it, please.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Acebird said:


> By being an experienced beekeeper that has taken a number of stings. From what I have read I don't think it is normal to not get stung when doing a cut out. I think a newbie alone doing cut outs from a ladder is a risk.


Is that four years experience or one years experience four times?http://www.beesource.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif 

With proper bee suite and gear and proper application, there is very little likelihood of taking ANY stings! I get the odd hit when I have taken short cuts when not installing all gear properly.


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## Fergus (Jan 27, 2015)

I also use benadryl. I wasn't aware of it in liquid form, I will look into getting some. I keep a tube of the cream in my box and if I take a sting, I zao it with the cream and move on.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Allergic reactions do not always occur on the first, second or any other definite amount of times of exposure to an allergen. We can become sensitized at any time. I have always, also, kept a bottle of liquid Benadryl handy, just in case. I don't know that it will save me, but if I start to have a severe reaction I plan to drink some, then start towards medical help. 
Disclaimer: I am not a Doctor nor do I even play one on T.V. This is only my plan.

Alex


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## MTBeeGirl (Apr 24, 2015)

Tim KS said:


> I try to keep a bottle of liquid Benadryl in my 'bee tool bag'. If I begin to get a reaction to stings (has never happened), I can just take a drink through my veil to hopefully stifle any serious reaction.


Good idea! Thanks.


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## Fergus (Jan 27, 2015)

Also stand by for shock, The 2 epipens were cost $475. Hopefully your provider covers it. I never worried about having the pen until people started spending time near my bees.


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## John Scifres (Mar 25, 2014)

MTBeeGirl said:


> I was reading a responsible beek keeps an epipen (sp?) in his toolbox...do you? Should I?


If you are not a trained medical professional, do not give others medical treatment or advice. Epi-Pens are serious medicine. Benadryl may stave off inflammation from a mild reaction but it will do nothing for a serious allergic reaction (anaphylaxis) resulting in shock. https://www.epipen.com/


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Colobee said:


> It's been a while since I read this, so pardon me if it is out of date. There was a time when it was thought that the average non-allergic person could take ~ 200 bee stings before going into anaphylactic shock. Beekeepers (non-allergic), having developed some "immunity" could take twice that many - ~400. This is old info, and I'd have to dig for the verification, so don't run out and test it, please.


I've taken around 100 stings at one time when I hive I was moving cracked. I only had some heavy swelling that went away in a day or so.


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## Fergus (Jan 27, 2015)

Of course I have no intention of administering pen to anyone unless it was absolute life threatening, not because they were uncomfortable. short of someone being to the point of suffocating, I wouldn't consider it and only with their consent.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

shinbone said:


> Not true at all!
> 
> And, unless you are actually allergic and would go into anaphylactic shock if stung (not just the normal swelling and itching), 5 stings is nothing.





Bee Bliss said:


> Five stings is nothing if you are not allergic. That would be a first day of apitherapy! lol Best not to have an empty stomach when getting stung and stay hydrated. Bee venom is good for the body unless you are allergic.





Colobee said:


> It's been a while since I read this, so pardon me if it is out of date. There was a time when it was thought that the average non-allergic person could take ~ 200 bee stings before going into anaphylactic shock. Beekeepers (non-allergic), having developed some "immunity" could take twice that many - ~400. This is old info, and I'd have to dig for the verification, so don't run out and test it, please.


I wish I'd have saved the link, but someone put a medical article up sometime last year regarding allergic reactions. What I took from it was that each sting is basically a roll of the dice. Odds are extremely long that you'd going into anaphylactic shock... but the risk of that happening is possible with each exposure, regardless of how you have reacted to stings before.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I picked up a two pack of Epi-pens about two years ago. The prescription was written by the lady at the bee club that taught a class on what the reactions were and how to use the pen. I got a discount ($0 copay card) from River Bee I think on another forum. The two pens cost me either $20 or nothing. 
I got stung more than 20 times last fall moving a hive that broke open and I felt sluggish and sick to my stomach the following day. Allergic, I would say not, but pumped full of poison, certainly.


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## Sharpbees (Jun 26, 2012)

My wife has helped me since I started keeping bees in 2006, she had been stungs dozens of times then in 2014 she got stung while we were taking a swarm. She started having breathing difficulty within 2 minutes. Now I keep an epipen on hand, just in case.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

jwcarlson said:


> I wish I'd have saved the link, but someone put a medical article up sometime last year regarding allergic reactions. What I took from it was that each sting is basically a roll of the dice. Odds are extremely long that you'd going into anaphylactic shock... but the risk of that happening is possible with each exposure, regardless of how you have reacted to stings before.


A doctor once explained peanut allergies to me like this: Everybody is born with a "peanut bucket" the closer you get to a full bucket, the greater your risk for going into anaphylactic shock. Some buckets can only hold one peanut and other buckets can hold a million peanuts. Your bucket holds somewhere in between, and if you start having allergic reactions (_not_ local swelling and pain), you could be approaching a full bucket. 

That explanation makes the best sense to me.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Bee venom is actually a good thing. It has great medicinal value. It contains chemicals that are also present in the human body. It is anti-cancer, anti-fungal, anti-bacterial and anti-viral. The sting site is flooded by the body's response with increased blood supply supplying chemicals for healing, as well as increased oxygen and fluids. Bee venom enters the blood stream and kills pathogens in the blood.

Bee venom must be used with care though. As long as a person is not allergic and the person is also not stung too much at one time. Based on what the apitherapist mentioned to us, it is the killing of the pathogens that can cause a person to feel punk. The body has to flush that out.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Bee Bliss said:


> Bee venom is actually a good thing. It has great medicinal value. It contains chemicals that are also present in the human body. It is anti-cancer, anti-fungal, anti-bacterial and anti-viral.


 Bee venom is an interesting thing to study, but can you point me to sources indicating the anti-cancer/fungal/bacterial/viral properties that you speak of?


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## BackYardPhenomena (Jul 11, 2012)

Interesting turn this conversation has taken.
I am used to doing bee removals 2-3 in a day on the weekend. It may have been dehydration as it was 96 in Miami yesterday; however my initial concern was from two days of repeated stings in some of the same locations. It wasn't 5 stings but again was 5 or more each day in some of the same locations. Roughly 10+. If one spot gets stung and has minor swelling but then is stung again the next day, it may be more of a problem.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Bee Bliss said:


> Bee venom is actually a good thing. It is anti-cancer, anti-fungal, anti-bacterial and anti-viral.


I may live to be 250 years old! LOL If I get by with 5 or fewer stings while doing hive inspections, I figure it's been a good day. I sting my shoulder on purpose and can say this about that. Bee venom is better than a cortisone shot!


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Nabber, 

Is this a challenge again or do you have real interest? I have listed sources before. Have you ever checked them out?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Bee Bliss said:


> Nabber,
> 
> Is this a challenge again or do you have real interest? I have listed sources before. Have you ever checked them out?


Challenge you? No. I have an interest in all things. Sorry for my laziness, but can you repeat a few links?


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Nabber, I don't keep track of everything I come across, but here are a few.....

Beewelltherapy.com
Health and the Honeybee by Charles Mraz
Apitherapist
American Apitherapy Society (seems to have changed somewhat) 
How Well are You Willing to Bee? by Pat Wagner
http://apitherapy.blogspot.com (search bee venom on this site, there are many cancer/bee venom articles)

~ Bee Bliss


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Nabber86 said:


> A doctor once explained peanut allergies to me like this: Everybody is born with a "peanut bucket" the closer you get to a full bucket, the greater your risk for going into anaphylactic shock.


I think that doctor is full of something, and it ain't peanuts. If this were the case, my bucket would have to be a fleet of dump trailers.

I no longer blindly trust doctors, merely because they are [supposedly] educated and carry an "MD" (and/or other letters). I've had too much personal experience with doctors making mistakes and being ignorant in spite of their "education", including one with a degree from a prestigious institution and a bunch of published papers who very nearly killed me because she was too ignorant and "stuck on herself" to listen to what I was telling her.

I'm not a natural-born cynic/skeptic. I used to be a very trusting soul (when I was young and naive), the "school of hard knocks" has taught me to be otherwise.

People react differently to different things. Even medicines that help some people will kill others. What really disturbs me, is that in reading the prescribing information included with many of the newer drugs they state "the method of action is unknown"...in other words, they have no clue why or how it works- but they will prescribe it and the patient is really little more than a "guinea pig". Even more disturbing are the disclaimers of the nature of "...xx% of patients have had a severe adverse reaction resulting in death..." (Hey, we have this great new pill, we have no idea how it works but go ahead and take it so that we can see if it helps you or kills you.)

For all of their "education", they aren't necessarily as bright as they want you to think they are.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Nabber86 said:


> A doctor once explained peanut allergies to me like this: Everybody is born with a "peanut bucket" the closer you get to a full bucket, the greater your risk for going into anaphylactic shock. Some buckets can only hold one peanut and other buckets can hold a million peanuts. Your bucket holds somewhere in between, and if you start having allergic reactions (_not_ local swelling and pain), you could be approaching a full bucket.
> 
> That explanation makes the best sense to me.


I enter threads like these which affect people health with great trepidation. That's an interesting analogy Nabber and one made by a medical professional no less but I do question it to some degree. If someone knows of a case where a professional beekeeper who has been regularly stung his entire life has suddenly developed a severe allergic reaction I'd like to hear about it. I would hazard a guess that I have been stung in the neighborhood of 100,000 times in my lifetime and the worst reaction I have ever felt is a feeling of being a bit " punchdrunk" a couple times when I took maybe 100 stings in a day. Others in my family can tell similar stories with the exception of my second son who experienced a severe reaction as a toddler after receiving just his second sting. He was subsequently desensitized and has had no life threatening problems in the ensuing 30+ years.
The issue of a relationship between low cancer rates and beekeeper said is an interesting one that's been floating around for years. 
http://chetday.com/beepollen.htm
My father (who died from heart disease in his 80's) always claimed he knew of no beekeeper who had ever contracted cancer and liked to tell of a Russian study of sorts years ago that made the claim that beekeepers had very low rates of malignancy compared to the general public. The theory, I suppose, being that the antibodies which make us tolerate bee stings may also fight against cancers. I have no idea if it's true or not but anecdotal evidence makes me wonder.


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## trapperdirk (Nov 3, 2013)

Always be aware of the risk. I have been stung by honey bees a multitude of times throughout my life. As a kid trying to catch them off of clover petals, as a high school bee keeper who knew absolutely nothing, as a wildlife control operator who caught swarms and did trap outs, and as a "new" beekeeper starting all over again at close to fifty.

Last year, after taking multiple stings throughout the summer, I took a sting to the thumb while in the hive and one to the temple after having closed up the hives and just standing about 50 feet from them enjoying conversation with a fellow beekeeper. I had virtually no localized swelling but began to feel a bit odd after 15-20 minutes. My eyes began to itch, my face became flushed and I needed to use the bathroom pretty bad. Once I got done in the bathroom I realized I was showing some additional signs of shock so I had my wife take me into the ER. A shot of adrenaline along with whatever else they gave me and I was as good as new. They also told me the next sting could flat out kill me, or have no effect.  I carry an epi-pen and I am also planning on going through the desensitizing regimen.

Your body changes as you are exposed to allergens and as you age your metabolism changes too. I am also allergic to some antibiotics now. **** Father Time!


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

It's just a useful analogy that helps me think about allergies. Bag sizes do not follow a normal distribution so I am not saying that sooner or later _everyone_ will have a bad reaction. Obviously 98%+ of people have an infinitely large bag and this will never come into play. It's the very small percentage of people on the other end that we hear about. From what I have studied/read, if you are truly allergic to bee venom, every exposure can lead you closer to a filled bag. And by truly allergic, I mean an immune system response; not the thousands of people who carry epipens because they once got stung by a bee and it swelled and itched a lot.

EDIT: A graph like this:


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## mobe_45 (Mar 14, 2015)

I have not bought an epipen yet for the following reasons. 1, I don't have much reaction from the sting. 2, I did not know how long the expiration date was on the pens. From my internet searching, the pens have an expiration date of one year. And now, with the sticker price, I will check with my ins. provider first to see if it will be covered. Still, even at $475 for 2 pens, it's cheap compared to a major hospital stay for a person who goes into anaphylactic shock. I would never want to use the pen until I had contacted a hospital/dr. and explained symptoms and given an ok.
Benadryl in pill form has never done a thing for me, but then, neither does sudafed. I do have a ton of allergies and use Allegra D, or HyVee generic allergy tabs.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

When your working bees and later that night you begin to cramp up 
It's from dehydration 
You have depleted your self of potassium 
Eat banana for one 
And DRINK DRINK DRINK 
Before during and after 

Pickle juice works too


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

An epi pen does not prevent anaphaylactic shock. It just buys you time to get to the ER.

Anyone that has an epi pen used on them had better be going to the hospital! 

Another thing, don't let the pharmacy give you an older epi pen that has much of it's useful, active time used up. Not your problem that their inventory is getting older.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Bee Bliss said:


> Another thing, don't let the pharmacy give you an older epi pen that has much of it's useful, active time used up. Not your problem that their inventory is getting older.


There is a thing called quality control that all drug companies and pharmacy follow. Nobody is going to sell you an epi-pen that is near expiration. That would end up in a civil lawsuit and possibly criminal charges. The are all clearly marked with an expiration date and a window to check if it has expired.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

great information. I knew about bee venom helping with some things and as a new beekeeper I am wondering if I should purposefully sting myself to build up a tolerance to it? will that work? I don't have any known allergy to it but last time I got stung it hurt like heck. I watch you pro's do videos and its like nothing.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Kaizen,

Yes, you could do that if you are not allergic. Try an ice cube on the sting site to numb area, then dry the skin and sting it. Ice does make a difference. Sting fleshy areas for now. They can absorb the swelling for now better. Check out the apitherapy section on Beesource.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

My three most memorable stings of the day:

*One to the armpit, had to deal with it while I moved a split then pulled the stinger out 5 hours later in the shower 
*One to the tip of my "bird" finger which was so sudden and hurt so bad I dropped a frame of brood full of nurse bees on the ground and cussed loudly for a few minutes afterwords
*One to the eyelid from a sneaky bee that got under my veil

I don't even swell anymore but the rhumatiod arthritis that runs in my family hasn't bothered me once in the 4.xx years that I've had bees :thumbsup:

I should have just stayed at a Holiday Inn and called it a day


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

I stopped counting at 30 stings in one leg about about that many in my other leg last summer when i shook a swarm from a branch on my head instead of in the box that was 3' in front of me.

I took some Benadryl and had some fairly painfull swelling in that leg after about 8 hrs. the painfull swelling only lasted for about 24hrs but it took several days for the swelling to go away compleatly.

I have used topical benadryl with great affect for local swelling.


most long time beeks ive talked to have all have that one story to tell of takeing upwards of 100 with no serious symptoms.


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## julieandwadeshelton (Oct 10, 2014)

I have a question for you folks.. how long, or how many stings, did it take you to get the the point where you didn't swell from a sting anymore? Also, describe to me what you consider normal swelling? I got a sting on the back of my lower thumb.. the whole back of my hand is swollen, puffy, and on fire given the time of day.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Getting stung in the fingers will make them swell a bit, lots of stings in the fingers makes them swell a bit more. I sometimes swell if i get stung in certain parts of the face, especially the eyebrow. Normal swelling to me looks like redness up to looking like a cigarette burn where the sting happened. It took hundreds of stings over a few years, now I'm good as gold. Not everyone reacts the same to a sting though.


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## BackYardPhenomena (Jul 11, 2012)

If I get stung on the leg, forearm, neck or back I don't swell. But anywhere on the feet, I can't put my shoe on well. Have to go to work though so it goes on. 

I was stung on the lower side of my belly once that stayed swollen for days. I've read that swelling is a good sign and it shows that your body is reacting to the toxic proteins in bee stings.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

julieandwadeshelton said:


> I have a question for you folks..


Everyone's chemistry is different. If I get bit by a Miskito five minutes later you can not see where I got bit. My father was the same. I have gotten little stings in the finger that you could not see ten minutes later and in three days you could see a red dot where I got stung, no swelling. Then I got stung in the back of the hand and the whole hand swelled up for a couple of days. If my wife gets bit by a Miskito it is like she got bit by an alligator. Her whole arm swells up and she scratches it for the next two weeks. I ask her why she scratches it and she says it itches. If you scratch it it will itch more so why do you scratch it? Because it itches. Then I say OK.


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## trapperdirk (Nov 3, 2013)

I don't think there is a true answer to your question. I think bee venom varies in its potency. Another variable is the amount of venom injected, how deep the stinger is inserted, and the type of tissue the venom is injected into.

I have been stung a multitude of times and have had varied response even with the same sting site. Some times I had no more reaction than a mosquito bite, others I had quite a bit of localized swelling, itching and burning. The last two stings I took caused anaphalaxis and I had to go to the ER.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Took ~ 500 stings at one time with no effects at all. Dropped a full hive off a hand truck. Rows of bees were dangling down by their stingers from my naked forearms. I had stings all over the body.

I receive 5 stings every day in summer, since I work bees every day. 

I read somewhere an adult doesn't die from less than thousand stings from honeybees. (Allergic reactions is a different thing, only one sting is sufficient to let you die.) I reckon a thrifty beekeeper would need a couple of thousand stings to get into trouble. 

I don't own a veil, and I get stings so I am used to stings and in case of accidents I don't get into trouble so easily.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Take vitamin C. Bee stings use up your body's vitamins. Especially vitamin C should be supplemented.

If your immune system is lowered due to illness or stress, you get worse reactions than normal.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

I don't think your leg cramps are related to the stings. But for what it's worth, last spring I got popped on the ankle. The immediate effect (affect?) was not a big deal, but I was awakened during the night with a real ache in the foot. When I got up the pain in my foot made me sit right back down. I could hardly walk for a couple of hours. Finally the pain slackened off.


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## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Anyone know if bee venom is hard on your liver? Just wondering if the venom is removed by your liver or not. If it is, possibly it does place a bit of extra load on your liver.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Let me google that for you.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3208180/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25478691


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## Angiebubs (Apr 16, 2015)

When I see this threads, I keep posting the following info: IF you and your Dr decide to get an Epipen, you can go to the Epipen website and get a coupon that will cover your co pay (with certain limitations; mainly it won't cover copay if receiving insurance via the government).


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